# The Insufferable Lake Chapala Expats



## Hound Dog

Maybe it´s just me but I perceive that the personalities of the expats coming to the Chapala Municipality lately have become more aggressive and unpleasant in general than was the case when we moved here in 2001. There is a mid-western preachy feel to the somewhat overbearing expat colony here now, especially among newcomers, that was, at least, less noticibale and more modest back then. 

One reason we left the U,S, and moved down here was to not only be left alone but to be left to our own devices no matter how deficient. So, there are potholes in the streets and uneven sidewalks inviting dangers while driving or walking thereabouts. I do not understand why this new generation of expat snots simply didn´t retire to Santa Monica and leave those of who chose Mexico alone. I guess the reason is that it is much less expensive here but, be that as it may folks, try to remember that one of the reasons it is more economical to live here than it is in San Diego is that nobody is pushing your butt to proceed in a straight line and, in this place, if you do not note a hole in the pavement and bust your hiney, it is your responsibility and you can forget that lawsuit crap. 

Godawlmighty, Californians, go back up there and give us a break.


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## lagoloo

IMO, Dawg, you are becoming overly cranky about your Lakeside neighbors. They have ALWAYS included the pushy, the snotty and the arrogant asholes along with some very considerate and pleasant people. As one gets crankier, they tend to notice the things they don't like even more.

It is, however, true that there is a whole generation of "me me" people reaching retirement age, and reducing their lifestyle to fit their non-working budgets is so unthinkable that some of them are moving here. The smell of entitlement has arrived, and cannot be avoided if living in surroundings with certain conveniences we find desirable.

I'm sure there are some mountain monastery vacancies available if it all becomes unbearable.


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## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> Maybe it´s just me but I perceive that the personalities of the expats coming to the Chapala Municipality lately have become more aggressive and unpleasant in general than was the case when we moved here in 2001. There is a mid-western preachy feel to the somewhat overbearing expat colony here now, especially among newcomers, that was, at least, less noticibale and more modest back then.
> 
> One reason we left the U,S, and moved down here was to not only be left alone but to be left to our own devices no matter how deficient. So, there are potholes in the streets and uneven sidewalks inviting dangers while driving or walking thereabouts. I do not understand why this new generation of expat snots simply didn´t retire to Santa Monica and leave those of who chose Mexico alone. I guess the reason is that it is much less expensive here but, be that as it may folks, try to remember that one of the reasons it is more economical to live here than it is in San Diego is that nobody is pushing your butt to proceed in a straight line and, in this place, if you do not note a hole in the pavement and bust your hiney, it is your responsibility and you can forget that lawsuit crap.
> 
> Godawlmighty, Californians, go back up there and give us a break.


Since you only live in Chapala half the year, Hound Dog, does that mean you are only half-insufferable? Or are you the insufferable half of you and Citlali, and hence wholly insufferable? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## cuerna1

We have never been to Lake Chapala. In Cuernavaca we have to really go out of our way to bump into expats. There is a small library associated with a church which we used to visit before we both got kindles. The people there are really good folks. There is what used to be a Newcomers group. We went to one meeting perhaps 1.5 years ago. Turns out they held the meeting to announce they were all resigning. I think it has morphed into something else but I really don't know. There is a Yahoo group which I used to enjoy until I received a PM which literally threatened my health if I didn't stop posting and suggesting I should return to the States. I immediately closed the account and haven't gone back. It just wasn't worth it. When we first got here I used to ask for references of various expat craftsmen etc. The community seemed to be trying to be supportive. Ya know - every single time we had someone quote they were way more expensive than the people recommended by our Mexican friends.


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## Isla Verde

I'm sure there are some insufferable expats living somewhere in Mexico City, but luckily none of them live in my neighborhood!


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I'm sure there are some insufferable expats living somewhere in Mexico City, but luckily none of them live in my neighborhood!


Half the expats in my neighborhood are insufferable. There are only two of us. The other guy lives a few blocks away and I see him on the street maybe once a year. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which of us is the insufferable one.


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## Hound Dog

I have enjoyed your various responses to my, to some extent, lighthearted complaint about what I have, rightly or wrongly defined as a new breed of highly motivated expat control freak boy scouts moving to the Lake Chapala área from the U.S. and Canada. I must admit that I was being a bit overly presumptious in my posting just for the fun of it. 

Here is what I have discerned about people in many parts of the world where I have been fortunate enough to have visited or lived. Superficial assessments of a society in which one has recently become acquainted are always naive. You really must live in a place for a time to realize that folks in Mexico or Alabama or France are just folks with all the negative and positive connotations that notion implies. We are among the few expats living in the Chiapas Highlands and, typically, expats there tend to hunker down and at least pretend to respect the local society that has taken them under their wings even if reluctantly. I think of that as the order of normal civility the world over where societies are accepting of strangers in their midst. What bothers me a little bit at Lake Chapala is that it seems to me that elements of that Deep Southern U.S. holier-than-thou, impossibly sanctimonous Baptist/Presbyterian-type society sitting around every Sunday morning for interminable and soul- bending preriods of time listening to boring sermons which could only be appreciated by the deaf, I fled in 1966 has once again caught up with me and these people are showing up at my doorstep in the form of new expat arrivals and, By God, preaching to me again - this time about my uneven sidewalks or raw sewage in my lake or traffic lights that don´t function or ugly and inadequately constructed urban highrises or undisciplined automobile conductors or, for for God´s sake, in the case of Lake Chapala´s Chapala Municipality´s, uneven pavement at the phoney tianguis which is nothing more than an artificial arm of the nearby Guadalajara wholesale market selling fruits and vegetables from industrial farms in Guanajuato. These goody-two-shoes from Dubuque are only deluding themselves. That´s fine with me_ but leave me alone. _


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog, I feel your pain, even though I am lucky to be living in Mexico City, where the expat presence is so widely dispersed as to be barely noticeable. Have these new arrivals to the Chapala area actually come to your home to kvetch about the condition of public services? Or have they accosted you in public while you were having a cappuccino at your favorite outdoor café? They might leave you in peace if you wore a tee shirt bearing the message, "I like it here"!


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## Hound Dog

TundraGreen said:


> Half the expats in my neighborhood are insufferable. There are only two of us. The other guy lives a few blocks away and I see him on the street maybe once a year. I will leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which of us is the insufferable one.


I´m beginning to like you TG. A fine sense of humor is what gets us through the day retaining our sanity.

This guy goes to see his doctor and a few days later he goes back and his doctor says, "Well I have some bad news and some worse news. What do you want first?" The guy says, "Well, give me the bad news first," The doctor says, " You only have three days to live," The guy says, "Jesús Jones doctor, what could be worse than that?" The doctor responds, " I was supposed to call you two days ago."


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> I´m beginning to like you TG. A fine sense of humor is what gets us through the day retaining our sanity....


I'm surprised it's taken you this long to appreciate what a fine human being my fellow moderator is!


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## Hound Dog

_


Isla Verde said:



Hound Dog, I feel your pain, even though I am lucky to be living in Mexico City, where the expat presence is so widely dispersed as to be barely noticeable. Have these new arrivals to the Chapala area actually come to your home to kvetch about the condition of public services? Or have they accosted you in public while you were having a cappuccino at your favorite outdoor café? They might leave you in peace if you wore a tee shirt bearing the message, "I like it here"!

Click to expand...

_
Thank you, Isla.

I was speaking of the folks who preach on line, not visitors. The doors to our properties at both Lake Chapala and Chiapas are unwelcoming and normally unbreachable except for invited guests. The only key to one of my residences is an amusing personality and a bottle of fine aged Scotch.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Thank you, Isla.
> 
> I was speaking of the folks who preach on line, not visitors. The doors to our properties at both Lake Chapala and Chiapas are unwelcoming and normally unbreachable except for invited guests. The only key to one of my residences is an amusing personality and a bottle of fine aged Scotch.


The next time I visit you and Citlali, I'll be sure to come supplied with both.


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## Hound Dog

_


TundraGreen said:



Since you only live in Chapala half the year, Hound Dog, does that mean you are only half-insufferable? Or are you the insufferable half of you and Citlali, and hence wholly insufferable? Inquiring minds want to know.

Click to expand...

_Dawg is totally insufferable and has always so been. The University of Alabame was so loose in terms of admission that the local joke was that in order to get a degree from there one had to simply drive one´s car down University Avenue and they would throw your degree through the window. I am not making this up. There was this economics professor at Alabama who informed me in my junior year in 1964 that I was the dumbest sumbitch he had ever met. Then he said, "We have failed you and all the other students here because we have not challenged you to think, Well.I may be stupid but you didn´t see me hanging around Tuscaloose teaching morons economics 101 for the next 30 years. Who is the idiot here?


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## Hound Dog

Isla Verde said:


> The next time I visit you and Citlali, I'll be sure to come supplied with both.


We look forward to that Isla. If you can´t make it send the Scotch to San Cristóbal via DHL from DF.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> We look forward to that Isla. If you can´t make it send the Scotch to San Cristóbal via DHL from DF.


Will do!


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## sparks

My only two immediate neighbors over winter are Canadians ..... and the insufferable one lives across my "back fence". This guy is a totally out of control A Type personality. First year or two spent some time together -- because he's right there. This year no more than a few hours over the 5-6 month stay. He's crazy Jimmy to the community and some put up with him better than others. Talk about out of place in Mexico


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## vantexan

I can't wait to move down and spread the good word about Reaganomics! My wife won't consider Nicaragua, but fell in love with pictures of the Racquet Club in San Juan Cosala. I'm wanting Guanajuato, we'll see. But it would be fun to move down by the lake and be insufferable!


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## Hound Dog

vantexan said:


> I can't wait to move down and spread the good word about Reaganomics! My wife won't consider Nicaragua, but fell in love with pictures of the Racquet Club in San Juan Cosala. I'm wanting Guanajuato, we'll see. But it would be fun to move down by the lake and be insufferable!


Dawg looks forward to meeting your sorry insufferable Texas Republican ass when you finally arrange to get here , van but, looking beyond East Texas and South Alabama, two dreadful places with no redeeming virtues, wasn´t Ronald Reagan big buddies with the Nicararaguan fiendish dictator Samosa who, with Reagan´s support, nearly drove that poverty-sticken craphole into the sea? Wasn´t it Ronald Reagan who set out to turn all of Central America into his personal killing fields and slave quarters back when he was the hilariously incompetent president of the United States?


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## Hound Dog

Isla Verde said:


> I'm surprised it's taken you this long to appreciate what a fine human being my fellow moderator is!


 must y, Isla. that I am quite pleased with the quality of reasonable and even pleasantly taciturn moderation exercised by you and Will of this fórum. You guys use reasonable judgment on the Expat fórum while, in my opinión, remaining cognizant of your prescribed duties as levellers of the discourse hereabouts. You have both admonished me in the past for uncivil behavior but you have done so firmly but politely. I used to post on a couple of Chapala oriented fórums in the past but gave up that humiliating hobby after moving to Chiapas and noting that the Chapala moderators on those fórums were, becoming overbearing and immaturely asinine. Jerks abound there.

Anyway, The Reverend Walter Gent, a Pennsylvanian who couldn´t find a parish up there moved to my home town in South Alabama in about 1953 and he must have been the most boring minister ever to exist on the face of the planet. His son was in love with me and very time we went off to Christiaain summer camps in variuos places in Alabama he would try to put the make on me and, looking back on those days in the 1950s, why not? Too late now.

The big thng about Presbyterian Church servces in South Alabama in the 1950s was to remember two things. It was important to congregate in the church vestibule after the sermon to thank the preacher for his inspirational (if incredibly)boring )message regqrding De Lawd but also to close some business deals supposedly to come to fruition the following business week.

Even more important was that beef roast in the oven which needed rescuing before it tuned to cardboard.


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## vantexan

Hound Dog said:


> Dawg looks forward to meeting your sorry insufferable Texas Republican ass when you finally arrange to get here , van but, looking beyond East Texas and South Alabama, two dreadful places with no redeeming virtues, wasn´t Ronald Reagan big buddies with the Nicararaguan fiendish dictator Samosa who, with Reagan´s support, nearly drove that poverty-sticken craphole into the sea? Wasn´t it Ronald Reagan who set out to turn all of Central America into his personal killing fields and slave quarters back when he was the hilariously incompetent president of the United States?


As opposed to the hilariously incompetant president we have now who has turned the Middle East into a bloodbath? Nice try.


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## Hound Dog

vantexan said:


> As opposed to the hilariously incompetant president we have now who has turned the Middle East into a bloodbath? Nice try.


I first visited the Middle East in 1966 which was either before Obama was born or when he was a child. I was riding on a bus between Tel Aviv and what were then referred to as the "Arab Territories" when we, as passengers, were ordered to hug the deck. The bus was then punctured by bullets. Later that year in Egypt and then in Sudan and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia I came under gunfire during general insurrections. Duriing these violent periods which I personally experienced, Obama was still seeking sustenance from his mama´s nipples as a Young lad. Don´t even _pretend_ to tell me about who started this crap which predates us all by countlesss centuries. Get off your East Texas high horse.


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## sparks

vantexan said:


> As opposed to the hilariously incompetant president we have now who has turned the Middle East into a bloodbath? Nice try.


That and Reaganomics ...... now that is totally insufferable. Gag !!


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## Longford

After reading what's been posted thus far, I'm wondering why this discussion wasn't posted to or moved to the La Chatarrería area.


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## lagoloo

How the heck did this deteriorate into a discussion of U.S. politics?

As the Dawg pointed out, the middle East has been a mess since before Moses or Mohammed.
The worst of the mess was created when the Europeans got together and parceled it up, which was long long before Obama's parents were born. It would be no surprise if it is still a mess if the Tea Party manages to capture the presidency.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> ... It would be no surprise if it is still a mess if the Tea Party manages to capture the presidency.


If that happens, I may never go back to the land of my birth!


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> After reading what's been posted thus far, I'm wondering why this discussion wasn't posted to or moved to the La Chatarrería area.


Because over half of it is about a subset of Lake Chapala expats. In any event, perhaps it's time to ask posters on this thread to go :focus:


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## RVGRINGO

Did someone just call other posters an insufferable subset? The end is near.


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## vantexan

Hound Dog said:


> I first visited the Middle East in 1966 which was either before Obama was born or when he was a child. I was riding on a bus between Tel Aviv and what were then referred to as the "Arab Territories" when we, as passengers, were ordered to hug the deck. The bus was then punctured by bullets. Later that year in Egypt and then in Sudan and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia I came under gunfire during general insurrections. Duriing these violent periods which I personally experienced, Obama was still seeking sustenance from his mama´s nipples as a Young lad. Don´t even _pretend_ to tell me about who started this crap which predates us all by countlesss centuries. Get off your East Texas high horse.


No argument from me but Obama's handling of the Middle East has led to the rise of ISIS, gotten an ambassador killed, and is essentially handing the Iranians nukes. If you're wanting to talk incompetency Obama is up there with the worst of them. And for those counting I mentioned Reaganomics as a tongue-in-cheek reference to being insufferable. If one wants to be insufferable, politics is a sure fire way to do it, thus keeping in line with the thread. And Hound Dog, for Pete's sake, I'm a native Floridian living in Arizona. I was living in Tyler, TX when I registered on the forum.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Did someone just call other posters an insufferable subset? The end is near.


The end of what? The world? Western civilization? This thread?


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## RVGRINGO

One could lead to the other, I think.


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> No argument from me but Obama's handling of the Middle East has led to the rise of ISIS, gotten an ambassador killed, and is essentially handing the Iranians nukes. If you're wanting to talk incompetency Obama is up there with the worst of them. And for those counting I mentioned Reaganomics as a tongue-in-cheek reference to being insufferable. If one wants to be insufferable, politics is a sure fire way to do it, thus keeping in line with the thread. And Hound Dog, for Pete's sake, I'm a native Floridian living in Arizona. I was living in Tyler, TX when I registered on the forum.


Not that there aren't things about the President and his administration many people might legitimately criticize, I don't think the criticism's/items you specifically mention are supported by the facts. But the differences of opinions amongst peoples makes life (and discussions) interesting.

I sincerely suspect you would hate living in Mexico long-term, if you're this unhappy with the state of affairs in the USA.  Living in Mexico, at least until the time you'd become a citizen (if that would be the intention) you wouldn't have much say about or influence over the governments and government officials which influenced your life so greatly. What would you opine about, then?


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## cuerna1

>> Living in Mexico, at least until the time you'd become a citizen (if that would be the intention) you wouldn't have much say about or influence over the governments and government officials which influenced your life so greatly.

I'm not sure it is much different for him in the US.

I remember a conversation I had with a very intelligent, opinionated marine mechanic as he worked on my boat prior to the 2008 election. I said my gut tells me you just can't trust Obama. Looking back - how many of the campaign promises has he kept/broken. I can't believe he was elected for a second term.

I'll say this - Pena Nieta and his wife are a look easier for me to look at.

Here is a short list of things that led to our moving to Mexico from the US (in no particular order)
- We were paying > 10K USD in property taxes.
- We were paying about 12K USD for health insurance (and that was with COBRA).
- We were paying perhaps 3K USD for auto insurance.
- We were paying maybe 350 USD per month for electricity.
- We weren't paying windstorm insurance because we had no mortgage but that would have been thousands with a steep deductible.
- The neighbor across the canal from us - who while in the Navy in the 70's - received a 100% lifetime exemption from property taxes because he was 100% disabled while in the military. His job in the service - prepare the exercise program for NASA. Since leaving the military he received a PHD in physical therapy, works full time as a college professor and maintains a business to teach others how to not pay taxes. Yet he is capable of climbing a ladder and pressure washing his roof - all while he is 100% disabled.
- The neighbor to the left was a single woman realtor who bought at the very worst time and then sank 250K into remodeling. She paid 1.4 million for the house which today is maybe worth half that. She hasn't made a mortgage payment in years - yet somehow still lives in the house.
- We lived in a well-to-do town (depending on your location). A lot of the homes were on ocean access canals. There was enough drug running going on that the police made lots of busts, which led to lots of very expensive boat confiscations etc, which meant lots of police money to spend. And they spent it on mostly cameras - everywhere. 

And of course we moved to Mexicofor the chance for a new life adventure.

Sure - there are things we have to 'cope' with here but overall are lives are a lot simpler and my BP is a lot lower.


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## Isla Verde

cuerna1 said:


> ...
> I remember a conversation I had with a very intelligent, opinionated marine mechanic as he worked on my boat prior to the 2008 election. I said my gut tells me you just can't trust Obama. Looking back - how many of the campaign promises has he kept/broken. I can't believe he was elected for a second term.
> 
> I'll say this - Pena Nieta and his wife are a look easier for me to look at.


Wow, I don't even want to know what you meant by that last sentence . . .


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## cuerna1

Isla Verde said:


> Wow, I don't even want to know what you meant by that last sentence . . .


They remind me of the Kennedy's


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## Isla Verde

cuerna1 said:


> They remind me of the Kennedy's


I see. And you don't mind looking at pretty-boy Peña and his wife because they don't remind you of the Kennedys?


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## Longford

Yes, there are Americans (from the USA) whom I describe as _refugees_ who've moved to Mexico ... because they were so unhappy living in the USA and they felt out-of-step with so many of their fellow citizens. Change is unsettling to many people. 

Most in that that group whom I've observed, listened and read, seem, for the most part, ignorant about Mexico, its government, the culture and even many of the sorts of things they didn't like back home but which are to one extent or another present in Mexico. Their anger at their birth country is so strong it appears to me to have clouded their thinking. Many have tried so very hard to justify their move to Mexico but don't do it successfully. 

On the other hand, I do know a lot of expats who've transitioned to Mexico not because they're _running away_ or that they though it was their only choice, but out of conscious/informed planning which leads them _moving toward_ a new life which brings them satisfaction.


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## cuerna1

Longford said:


> Yes, there are Americans (from the USA) whom I describe as _refugees_ who've moved to Mexico ... because they were so unhappy living in the USA and they felt out-of-step with so many of their fellow citizens. Change is unsettling to many people.
> 
> Most in that that group whom I've observed, listened and read, seem, for the most part, ignorant about Mexico, its government, the culture and even many of the sorts of things they didn't like back home but which are to one extent or another present in Mexico. Their anger at their birth country is so strong it appears to me to have clouded their thinking. Many have tried so very hard to justify their move to Mexico but don't do it successfully.
> 
> On the other hand, I do know a lot of expats who've transitioned to Mexico not because they're _running away_ or that they though it was their only choice, but out of conscious/informed planning which leads them _moving toward_ a new life which brings them satisfaction.


But who exactly are YOU ? You come across as a US State Dept employee tasked with sprinkling angel-dust.


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## cuerna1

Isla Verde said:


> I see. And you don't mind looking at pretty-boy Peña and his wife because they don't remind you of the Kennedys?


For example
Ellen and Michelle Obama break it down to 'Uptown Funk' | Daily Mail Online

This is the woman who is dictating what children can eat in school ? She's got energy - I'll give her that.


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## Hound Dog

_


vantexan said:



No argument from me but Obama's handling of the Middle East has led to the rise of ISIS, gotten an ambassador killed, and is essentially handing the Iranians nukes. If you're wanting to talk incompetency Obama is up there with the worst of them. And for those counting I mentioned Reaganomics as a tongue-in-cheek reference to being insufferable. If one wants to be insufferable, politics is a sure fire way to do it, thus keeping in line with the thread. And Hound Dog, for Pete's sake, I'm a native Floridian living in Arizona. I was living in Tyler, TX when I registered on the forum.

Click to expand...

_Actuay Dawg is kind of enjoying this thread but, vantexan, people don´t actual live in Tyler, Texas beyond the time the next Greyhound bus leaves for Texarkana and it defies belife they actually had electricity there except to run old Gene Autrey and Bugs Bunny flicks . I guess they had enough supplemental powr to remind you to go to the lobby to buy popcorn abd Butterfingrsr. How, in God´s name, could a Floridian experiencing life in Arizona move to Godawful Tyler, Texas?

I´ll recall how Dawg even found how Tyler, Texas even existed int he 1950s. In my youth I used to listen late at night to WLAC in Nashvlle. This was a " clear channel" station playing music all the time and I used to hide the radio under my bed until my parents were asleep and then listen to all-night music from Greenville, Alabama presented by WLAC in Nashville. one of their biggest advertisers in the 1950s was the Tyler Barber College where they could teach you to cut hair like those sophisticated barbers from places like Fort Smith, Arkansas.


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## Isla Verde

cuerna1 said:


> For example
> Ellen and Michelle Obama break it down to 'Uptown Funk' | Daily Mail Online
> 
> This is the woman who is dictating what children can eat in school ? She's got energy - I'll give her that.


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but as for me I think it's refreshing having a first lady who is both funky and elegant!


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## cuerna1

Isla Verde said:


> Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but as for me I think it's refreshing having a first lady who is both funky and elegant!


I'll let you have the last word.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> Yes, there are Americans (from the USA) whom I describe as _refugees_ who've moved to Mexico ... because they were so unhappy living in the USA and they felt out-of-step with so many of their fellow citizens. Change is unsettling to many people.
> 
> Most in that that group whom I've observed, listened and read, seem, for the most part, ignorant about Mexico, its government, the culture and even many of the sorts of things they didn't like back home but which are to one extent or another present in Mexico. Their anger at their birth country is so strong it appears to me to have clouded their thinking. Many have tried so very hard to justify their move to Mexico but don't do it successfully.
> 
> On the other hand, I do know a lot of expats who've transitioned to Mexico not because they're _running away_ or that they though it was their only choice, but out of conscious/informed planning which leads them _moving toward_ a new life which brings them satisfaction.


I tend to agree with one part of your comments here. Economic refugees, but may also include Florida, Arizona, Texas and a few other less expensive housing states and taxes etc. I know you are considering those options as well or at least Florida.

Mexico makes more sense to some retirees , not an obscure realtionship regarding politics of where they came from or end up, to any decision many will make where to go to get out of the cold winters and high housing costs including renting, gas for heating, downsizing in retirement, simplifying their lives, taxes etc. situation they are in when retiring on a fixed income. 

Because many talk US or Mexican politics and as you state many don´t understand either usually I doubt they hate their home countries as this is just political discussion and no more. When you say many are justifying their move to Mexico or in your case possible move to Mexico there are some who do and some who don´t, depends on circumstances and personallities etc. 


Financial considerations always play a leading roll in anything people do as in accepting a job offer, moving from their present location and love life and family consideration, not the polítics of the area. IMO

Your past posts seem to have your thinking also clouded and your motivation to decide when the day comes will be a hard choice to make as you yourself may not enjoy your new location as much as you previously thought you might.

It all boils down to not studying a place to live on the internet but going there and seeing if it fits your current lifestyle and moods.

Because some did this and didn´t feel comfortable is no way to say they are justifying their decision but they did it and will have to either accept their new area, try another area or move back if they have the resources do do so. Reading Mexico forums give us a tiny example of this and should not really be considered much input to comment on in general of what Expats or retirees feel about their move.

If they can´t afford the above options I guess they would be unhappy with their move and complain but not really focusing on the politics there but more on their lack of feeling comfortable living there. This of course is my view on a complicated subject and no more.


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## Longford

cuerna1 said:


> But who exactly are YOU ? You come across as a US State Dept employee tasked with sprinkling angel-dust.


WHO am I? I thought you might have known:


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## cuerna1

Longford said:


> WHO am I? I thought you might have known:


Well that sort of 'honest' admission might cut down on the dialogue on sites such as this...

You should focus your attention on those attempting to enter - not leave. For clarity - I have no problem with the US - I am just trying to experience new things before I am dust - (or fish food) - in a place where I can find/associate myself with people who share my own ethics. And fortunately at the moment we have a handful of those.


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## Longford

AlanMexicali said:


> Your past posts seem to have your thinking also clouded and your motivation to decide when the day comes will be a hard choice to make as you yourself may not enjoy your new location as much as you previously thought you might.


I'm not certain I understand the root cause of what seems to me to be your bitterness in having to live in Mexico; your lack of options. When it comes to the time I may make a decision to return or not, full-time, the decision will be based on multiple options, not just one, and 45 years of traveling through and living in Mexico for a portion of those years. I suppose I'm fortunate, if I do choose to return to Mexico to live, to have choices and the substantial experience and network of friends there. 

Lack of money sufficient to live to at a level they want to. Confusion, anger or opposition to the USA government. Inability to socialize effectively with friends and neighbors back in the USA. There are many motivating factors for those whom I'm referring to. Some do see to suffer from one or another form of mental/psychological illness which I think clouds their judgment. For some, lack of money is the reality and we know from some who've posted here and shared the personal information that they don't qualify for permission to reside in Mexico - so they do so 'under the radar.' For those folks, living life to the fullest in Mexico is somewhat restricted, as I view their circumstance.


----------



## Isla Verde

cuerna1 said:


> I'll let you have the last word.


Well, thank you, kind sir  .


----------



## cuerna1

Longford said:


> I'm not certain I understand the root cause of what seems to me to be your bitterness in having to live in Mexico; your lack of options. When it comes to the time I may make a decision to return or not, full-time, the decision will be based on multiple options, not just one, and 45 years of traveling through and living in Mexico for a portion of those years. I suppose I'm fortunate, if I do choose to return to Mexico to live, to have choices and the substantial experience and network of friends there.
> 
> Lack of money sufficient to live to at a level they want to. Confusion, anger or opposition to the USA government. Inability to socialize effectively with friends and neighbors back in the USA. There are many motivating factors for those whom I'm referring to. Some do see to suffer from one or another form of mental/psychological illness which I think clouds their judgment. For some, lack of money is the reality and we know from some who've posted here and shared the personal information that they don't qualify for permission to reside in Mexico - so they do so 'under the radar.' For those folks, living life to the fullest in Mexico is somewhat restricted, as I view their circumstance.


Ahh - Just a guess - you are a psychologist / psychiatrist. No ?

edit : why would a person no longer living somewhere spend so much time ...


----------



## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> I'm not certain I understand the root cause of what seems to me to be your bitterness in having to live in Mexico; your lack of options.


First coondawg tells me I am bitter because I lived in San Diego and left. Now you tell me I am bitter because I lived In Mexicali and now in San Luis Potosi. I guess if I took you two seriously, by the way, also the only two here whom seem to not be impressed at all with anything Mexican, especially the too many corrupt people here, I should tell my wife were are moving to Spain and it´s Mediterranean climate and try over there for awhile and see if it is any better. 

I hear they have good tapas there.


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> ...I should tell my wife were are moving to Spain and it´s Mediterranean climate and try over there for awhile and see if it is any better.
> 
> I hear they have good tapas there.


I've lived in Spain and enjoyed my time there. They do have good tapas, and wine, but prices are high compared to Mexico. And the winters can be downright cold (or at least chilly and damp), even in the south. The Mexican climate beats the Spanish climate hands down!


----------



## vantexan

Longford said:


> Not that there aren't things about the President and his administration many people might legitimately criticize, I don't think the criticism's/items you specifically mention are supported by the facts. But the differences of opinions amongst peoples makes life (and discussions) interesting.
> 
> I sincerely suspect you would hate living in Mexico long-term, if you're this unhappy with the state of affairs in the USA.  Living in Mexico, at least until the time you'd become a citizen (if that would be the intention) you wouldn't have much say about or influence over the governments and government officials which influenced your life so greatly. What would you opine about, then?


Why would I be any less interested in U.S. politics while living in Mexico? I applaud all who go whole hog into their new environment, even becoming citizens. I suspect I'll never be fluent enough to enjoy a conversation in Spanish, and that I'll always be an outsider in Mexico. Why fight it? I'm perfectly content with having the Internet for communicating with others in English. 

As to the rest, the facts most definitely support my post, and I suspect you can't bear the thought of those of my ilk living in "your" Mexico. Oh well.


----------



## AlanMexicali

vantexan said:


> Why would I be any less interested in U.S. politics while living in Mexico? I applaud all who go whole hog into their new environment, even becoming citizens. I suspect I'll never be fluent enough to enjoy a conversation in Spanish, and that I'll always be an outsider in Mexico. Why fight it? I'm perfectly content with having the Internet for communicating with others in English.
> 
> As to the rest, the facts most definitely support my post, and I suspect you can't bear the thought of those of my ilk living in "your" Mexico. Oh well.


Longford lives in the Windy City and passes by here somtimes for a visit but "his" Mexico is a different Mexico than most here see it, obviously. His refusal to see things my way annoys me to no end. Your refusal to see things my way doesn´t bother me in the least as you lay it on the line, not shroud it in fantasy.


----------



## vantexan

Longford said:


> I'm not certain I understand the root cause of what seems to me to be your bitterness in having to live in Mexico; your lack of options. When it comes to the time I may make a decision to return or not, full-time, the decision will be based on multiple options, not just one, and 45 years of traveling through and living in Mexico for a portion of those years. I suppose I'm fortunate, if I do choose to return to Mexico to live, to have choices and the substantial experience and network of friends there.
> 
> Lack of money sufficient to live to at a level they want to. Confusion, anger or opposition to the USA government. Inability to socialize effectively with friends and neighbors back in the USA. There are many motivating factors for those whom I'm referring to. Some do see to suffer from one or another form of mental/psychological illness which I think clouds their judgment. For some, lack of money is the reality and we know from some who've posted here and shared the personal information that they don't qualify for permission to reside in Mexico - so they do so 'under the radar.' For those folks, living life to the fullest in Mexico is somewhat restricted, as I view their circumstance.


You do assume a lot. For me, I love the architecture, the climate, the food, the scenery, the kindness of it's people(away from the jaded folks on the border). And I'll be honest with you. There are some places in Mexico, like Guanajuato, that attract me for the sheer "magical" atmosphere. I'm sure living there fulltime will cure me of that, but from what I've seen, and the experiences of others I've read, the quality of life is high for those with a steady income in Dollars. Why spend my last years in the homogenized blandness of suburban America, paying through the nose for the privilege? Is that so hard to understand?


----------



## vantexan

Hound Dog said:


> Actuay Dawg is kind of enjoying this thread but, vantexan, people don´t actual live in Tyler, Texas beyond the time the next Greyhound bus leaves for Texarkana and it defies belife they actually had electricity there except to run old Gene Autrey and Bugs Bunny flicks . I guess they had enough supplemental powr to remind you to go to the lobby to buy popcorn abd Butterfingrsr. How, in God´s name, could a Floridian experiencing life in Arizona move to Godawful Tyler, Texas?
> 
> I´ll recall how Dawg even found how Tyler, Texas even existed int he 1950s. In my youth I used to listen late at night to WLAC in Nashvlle. This was a " clear channel" station playing music all the time and I used to hide the radio under my bed until my parents were asleep and then listen to all-night music from Greenville, Alabama presented by WLAC in Nashville. one of their biggest advertisers in the 1950s was the Tyler Barber College where they could teach you to cut hair like those sophisticated barbers from places like Fort Smith, Arkansas.


Goodness, you are so far off base I don't know where to start. Tyler has advanced quite a bit since the 50's. One of the top 50 zoos in the U.S., a symphony orchestra, 2 huge festivals annually, a huge lake nearby, excellent selection of restaurants, good shopping and movies, a Barnes & Noble, and one of the nicest upscale neighborhoods I've seen anywhere, and I've been in a lot of places. If you love trees and flowers Tyler's your place. It's the one city in East Texas that shines above the others. It's not perfect, can cut the racial tension with a knife sometimes. Winters are tolerable but the summer's not so much. Tyler is where the old oil money lives, the oil and gas fields are mostly further out. Think Longview.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> Actuay Dawg is kind of enjoying this thread but, vantexan, people don´t actual live in Tyler, Texas beyond the time the next Greyhound bus leaves for Texarkana and it defies belife they actually had electricity there except to run old Gene Autrey and Bugs Bunny flicks . .


As a fellow Southerner, Dawg, I'm really disappointed in your lack of knowledge about Tyler, Texas. There are two major lights that should " go on " when you hear that name: (1)Tyler Roses and (2) THE Tyler Rose, maybe not in that order. SHAME !!!


----------



## Hound Dog

This has been a fun thread. When we decided to leave the San Francisco Bay Area and retire elsewhere it was primarily because, after some 40 years in California we actually reconstructed our brain processes and realized that, while that was a nice place, it didn´t make sense to continue to live and work in a place that outrageuosly expensive. Retiring in California - a very nice state with a great climate in many áreas and many of those áreas outside of certain urban zones attractive and quite economical - but that seemed an irrational decisión as then when we started drawing down our IRA savings, and receiving social security benefits we would have to pay California State income tax as well as U.S.federal income taxes so living in California seemed an illogical alternative so we considered France and Coastal Alabama. Then Highland Latin America seemed a fine choice for the splendid climate . Our primary choice back then was Colombia but that country was in the midst of a serious and violent civil war so we chose Highland Mexico. Supurb climate, an interesting culture, extraordinary beauty and decent if unremarkable food. Fine tequila in Jalisco and rum in Chiapas. On top of those immediately noticeable advantages, we found many interesting friends here - especially in Chiapas. It´s been a great adventure for the past 15 years.


----------



## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> This has been a fun thread. It´s been a great adventure for the past 15 years.


15 years is a LONG time, Dawg. LOTS has changed for the better in many places NOB, since you departed. Many bad things that were true, are no longer true. There really are some great places and people and professionals, and there are reasonable places for people to live. The government is going downhill, but "bitchin' about it serves no purpose, doesn't change anything. But, some people can't be happy NOB, as Longford says, for many reasons. I think it is great that some of those that are unhappy NOB can come to Mexico and live like they want (or at least pretend that they do). I'm happy for them. I just wish some of those that continue to ride dead horses would consider that maybe it is time to dismount.


----------



## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> As a fellow Southerner, Dawg, I'm really disappointed in your lack of knowledge about Tyler, Texas. There are two major lights that should " go on " when you hear that name: (1)Tyler Roses and (2) THE Tyler Rose, maybe not in that order. SHAME !!!


I don´t known CD. When I hear the name Tyler, Texas I immediately think of Brylcreem hair slickener , RC Cola, Moon Pies, cornpone, hog jowls, Aunt Mable Jean´s fat ass driving down to the Piggly Wiggly in her 1958 Lincoln, Uncle Ralph Bob and Aunty Deborah standing outside the Baptist Church exclaiming, "Well, Reverend Willy John that was one fine sermón and, as long as we are conversing perhap´s you´d like to look over some of the used furniture we have for sale to spiff up the the manse."

And to think Jesús kicked out the money changers.


----------



## Hound Dog

_


coondawg said:



15 years is a LONG time, Dawg. LOTS has changed for the better in many places NOB, since you departed. Many bad things that were true, are no longer true. There really are some great places and people and professionals, and there are reasonable places for people to live. The government is going downhill, but "bitchin' about it serves no purpose, doesn't change anything. But, some people can't be happy NOB, as Longford says, for many reasons. I think it is great that some of those that are unhappy NOB can come to Mexico and live like they want (or at least pretend that they do). I'm happy for them. I just wish some of those that continue to ride dead horses would consider that maybe it is time to dismount. 

Click to expand...

_That was a nice post, CD. I have no problem believing that human hypocrisy takes easy turns along the way as we go through life. It´s our nature.

In the 1950s at the First Presbyterian Church in Greenville, Alabama, a beautiful town 38 miles south of Montgomery, the faithful sang their intently sincere and unquestioned praise to God Almighty and his son while two church elders were assigned to man the vestibule to prevent any "*******" who might wish to enter from entering that house of worship supposedly open and welcoming to all human beings. That congrgation was made up of very decent white people. Go figure.

These were your ancestors and mine. Damn fine and civilized people. Just as in Germany and a thousand other places, they looked the other way. We are no better than they were.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> That was a nice post, CD. We are no better than they were.


Sometimes I think that we are less than they were. At least some of us.


----------



## vantexan

Hound Dog said:


> This has been a fun thread. When we decided to leave the San Francisco Bay Area and retire elsewhere it was primarily because, after some 40 years in California we actually reconstructed our brain processes and realized that, while that was a nice place, it didn´t make sense to continue to live and work in a place that outrageuosly expensive. Retiring in California - a very nice state with a great climate in many áreas and many of those áreas outside of certain urban zones attractive and quite economical - but that seemed an irrational decisión as then when we started drawing down our IRA savings, and receiving social security benefits we would have to pay California State income tax as well as U.S.federal income taxes so living in California seemed an illogical alternative so we considered France and Coastal Alabama. Then Highland Latin America seemed a fine choice for the splendid climate . Our primary choice back then was Colombia but that country was in the midst of a serious and violent civil war so we chose Highland Mexico. Supurb climate, an interesting culture, extraordinary beauty and decent if unremarkable food. Fine tequila in Jalisco and rum in Chiapas. On top of those immediately noticeable advantages, we found many interesting friends here - especially in Chiapas. It´s been a great adventure for the past 15 years.


You should look at Colombia again. Medellin has become one of the most livable big cities in Latin America. There's a small city less than an hour from Medellin, Rionegro, about 100,000, that's become popular with the country's rich and famous. Colombia has a lot of choices, like Mexico, and it's currency has recently dropped significantly against the Dollar. About a 30% increase in purchasing power for those with Dollars. Too far from the States for us and a lot of red tape but expats living there really seem to love it.


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## ojosazules11

vantexan said:


> You should look at Colombia again. Medellin has become one of the most livable big cities in Latin America. There's a small city less than an hour from Medellin, Rionegro, about 100,000, that's become popular with the country's rich and famous. Colombia has a lot of choices, like Mexico, and it's currency has recently dropped significantly against the Dollar. About a 30% increase in purchasing power for those with Dollars. Too far from the States for us and a lot of red tape but expats living there really seem to love it.


Here is an interesting article about the transformation of Medellin over the past decade:

Medellin, Colombia offers an unlikely model for urban renaissance | Toronto Star

A couple of quotes from the article:
_Now, instead of topping a list of cities with sky-high murder rates, Medellin is being feted as the Innovative City of the Year by the Wall Street Journal._
....
_In barrios with a notorious history of sicarios, or child assassins, the city has built “library-parks,” each one designed by a different avant-garde architect. The idea was not only to bring municipal services into these underserved areas, but also to reclaim their reputations, so they would be known for their “emblematic spaces” and not their past horrors.
“All these neighbourhoods have crazy stories from the ’90s, because these were the areas where drug dealers would train and would hire the sicarios,” said Sotomayor. “So the mayor said: Let’s turn these places of violence into places for renewal and life.”
Physical transformation of the public space is only the most visible of the government overhauls in Medellin, which focused its efforts on mobility, early childhood education and job creation._

Our social circle in Toronto includes several Colombian families, and I've learned a lot about Colombia through them. If we didn't have such strong family ties in Mexico, I would seriously consider moving to Colombia.


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## citlali

"Look at Columbia again" why bother? I have no interest in moving anywhere, we are here to stay and happy to stay here.


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> "Look at Columbia again" why bother? I have no interest in moving anywhere, we are here to stay and happy to stay here.


Sure, but Hound Dog seems to not know how some places have changed over time for the better. Just helping him out.


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## Longford

cuerna1 said:


> Ahh - Just a guess - you are a psychologist / psychiatrist. No ?


No? Yes!


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> No? Yes!


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## Hound Dog

Well, guys, if you are going to put up photos of Irwin Corey, one of my héroes I will take the liberty of reminding you of Jack E. Leonard from the 60s. Perhaps one of the great if not the greatest doublé -talkers of all time. Actually, Jack was even better - a lot better - than Irwin. I fearr he is now long-deceased and, consequently, no longer funny. 

As Citlali commented, Colombia is over. We have been in Mexico for quite a bit of time as retirees and I have reached an age where not only am I not going to Colombia but find it something of a burden just to go to the nearest corner store. Not only that, even if we were so inclined we have five dogs and two cats. Imagine the fun of arriving in Medillin with that hoard plus I would have to find a new corner store.

I know I have a tendency to repeat myself but remember we chose the Chapala área over several other Mexican places we had considered because of the countless kilometers of deserted beaches here on Lake Chapala where we could run our mutts freely off-leash without bothering another human soul just by walking out of our front door. To do that mutt strolling in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, we´d have to get in our car and drive for at least 30 minutes into the woods and even then leashes would be a necessity. We all make our retirement decisions based on our circumstances and, now that we decided on smaller cities in which to live and have all those years under our belts in those places; Guadalajara or Paris are no longer in the least bit tempting. Your situation may differ so I urge those of you considering where to retire to contemplate these issues before making a final decisión.

I´ll tell you guys the advantages of both Ajijic on Lake Chapala and San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands:
* Ajijic has that vast lake with all those mutt-friendly deserted beaches plus it is close to the big city of Guadalajara with all the urban advantages that proximity to a large regional city entail.
* San Cristóbal is an historic colonial city at 2,000 meters in the Chiapas Highlands and is surrounded by beautiful mountanous terrain and incredibly interesting indigenous lands and their charming villages. It also has a Burger King and McDonalds, sadly lacking burger franchises in Chapala and, since the nearest Burger King is at the Guadalajara airport some 30 kilometers from our home on the lake, we will have to carefully consider the worthiness of that journey.


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## cuerna1

I understand life in Columbia is substantially more expensive than Mexico.


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## lagoloo

In other words, the really insufferable thing about Lake Chapala environs is the lack of a Burger King or MacDonalds? Pobrecito. It is as suspected.
We all have our burdens.


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## cuerna1

Boy does this thread have nothing to do with "Living in Mexico"...


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## lagoloo

Chuckle.
But "living in Mexico" includes all the opinionated ex-patriots and expats here, doesn't it, and the topic is about "insufferable" types? Believe me, we're still on topic.

If you listened to conversations at a local hangout any day it isn't snowing, you'll hear it all the way from the local Tea Partiers to the Radical Lefties. They even have official clubs around here.
Honest. The local paper lists events for all of them: Tea Party, Republicans, Democrats Abroad and a few others as well. There's a "home base" for everyone. What's interesting is that many expats never really left home. One foot is in Mexico and the other still planted NOB.


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## coondawg

lagoloo said:


> Chuckle.
> But "living in Mexico" includes all the opinionated ex-patriots and expats here, doesn't it, and the topic is about "insufferable" types? Believe me, we're still on topic.
> 
> What's interesting is that many expats never really left home. One foot is in Mexico and the other still planted NOB.


You are correct. Many of them would claim that they are in Mexico to get away from all this Political Garbage, as they are "fed up" with NOB and the increasing political and racial divide in the US.  
One important service that these types of "discussions" provide to prospective new residents is that they get a really good idea of what types of people they can find from NOB in Mexico, especially the most vocal on Forums like this. Many may choose to move to areas that have very few or no extranjeros, if they come at all.


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## lagoloo

re *******: You can also choose to avoid those types, wherever you decide to live. I only see their posts on forums, and if the pile gets too deep, it's easy to mouse on to elsewhere.

I probably live in the most intensively extraneros' area in Mexico here in Lakeside. If I hear the political bell go off, I avoid that person thereafter, and keep it on a smile and wave basis. Period. I have no problem finding people to hang out with who have compatible attitudes and interests.
We often have more choices than we are aware of.


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## TundraGreen

For those of you looking for recent posts in this thread, they have all been moved to a new thread in La Chatarrería: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-chatarrer/752890-us-politics.html#post7172522


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## surfrider

Isla Verde said:


> I'm surprised it's taken you this long to appreciate what a fine human being my fellow moderator is!


Oh such modesty. (I love the humor) 
I remember one time at lakeside when the church had the broadcast mass and some Canadian did not like that so she disconnected the speaker system. Boy was there one mad priest roaming around that day.

If your feeling that way Hound Dog, just think what the natives who were born and raised there are feeling. When I lived there I was getting the feeling that the mexicans were not liking all these people moving in and changing their way of life. Cant say I blame them, I would not like it either.


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## lagoloo

Same thing happens in other places, even in the U.S.A.
Some time ago, I lived in a charming ocean front college town. It was laid back, lots of artsy activities and not much traffic. Home prices were reasonable. Then Silicon Valley happened "next door" and the changes came like a tsunami. We moved to Mexico shortly thereafter. Yes, I can relate to the culture shock of any victims of a "takeover" by strangers.


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## Hound Dog

surfrider said:


> Oh such modesty. (I love the humor)
> I
> ...If your feeling that way Hound Dog, just think what the natives who were born and raised there are feeling. When I lived there I was getting the feeling that the mexicans were not liking all these people moving in and changing their way of life. Cant say I blame them, I would not like it either.


I understand this without equivocation. As I mentioned in previous posts, when I was a kid in the 1940s and 50s, the U.S. Gulf Coast from the Eastern shore of Mobile Bay in Alabama to Destin, Florida, a marvelous coastline with sugar white sands and crystal, aquamarine seas was an inexpensive place to live and vacation and a coast dotted with rural villages and charming small beach cottages. My family, who lived near Montgomery, spent our summers there every year either on the beach at Fort Walton or Santa Rosa Sound at a village called Mary Esther or Destin. In those days, Destin, which has, perhaps, the most beautiful sugar white beaches on Earth fronting crystal seas, was a poor fishing village consisting of mostly shacks, Mary Esther on Santa Rosa Sound was mostly pine and oak forests fronting the sound which was (and is) on the Intracoastal Waterway so imagine a small boy´s delight as huge barges passed through all day and night sometimes sounding their delightful horns and making my day. 

Today, that stretch of coast is mostly ugly condomium highrises obscuring the beach from passers-by and occupied largely by Canadians and people from the U.S. Midwest who discovered this paradise, moved into it by the thousands and, shall we say politely, changed it completely from rustic and poverty-stricken beauty to a replica of the Costa Del Sol. That´s one of the primary reasons we retired to Mexico rather than the Alabama Coast back in 2001. We old folks don´t care for radical change except I really like that relatively new Coca Cola Zero and the way my new Mazada beeps if I´m backing up and about to run into something.


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## Hound Dog

_


lagoloo said:



Same thing happens in other places, even in the U.S.A.
Some time ago, I lived in a charming ocean front college town. It was laid back, lots of artsy activities and not much traffic. Home prices were reasonable. Then Silicon Valley happened "next door" and the changes came like a tsunami. We moved to Mexico shortly thereafter. Yes, I can relate to the culture shock of any victims of a "takeover" by strangers.

Click to expand...

_As a former resident of Monterey Bay I believe you are referring to Santa Cruz, California or environs. Back in the ancient 80s we lived in Aptos and I worked in Downtown Santa Cruz,a quick drive over the mountains from the Silicon Valley. That was, of course, over 40 years ago. In those days, we moved from Santa Cruz to San Francisco´s North Beach because one can only take Santa Cruz for so long and then the San Francisco Mission District was a poor Latino neighborhood where one could live on peanuts and eat in some fun restaurants. In the past few years, Silicon Valley discovered the Mission and today look for doling out a million dollars or so for a condo there because who wants to live in the butt-ugly Silicon Vallay and its anchor city of San Jose? Maybe we should fence that place off from normal civilization .


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## lagoloo

Yes, that was Santa Cruz. I worked in the River St. area; a mere ten minute commute from Soquel in the beginning. Hardly any time passed before it turned into a forty minute drive from hell, enhanced by aggressive blonds heading for the Highway 17 turnoff to San Jose in killer SUV's. 
Mexican drivers are challenging, but most of them leave at least 4 inches between your rear and their front.


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## Hound Dog

_


lagoloo said:



Yes, that was Santa Cruz. I worked in the River St. area; a mere ten minute commute from Soquel in the beginning. Hardly any time passed before it turned into a forty minute drive from hell, enhanced by aggressive blonds heading for the Highway 17 turnoff to San Jose in killer SUV's. 
Mexican drivers are challenging, but most of them leave at least 4 inches between your rear and their front.

Click to expand...

_I understand. I worked at the now defunct County Bank of Santa Cruz a couple of blocks from River Street and the commute in the 1980s from Aptos was uneventful and easy . On the other hand, the drive over the mountain to Silicon Valley was avoided if at all possible. We used to drive up the usually almost deserted coast road when going to the city rather than inland through the valley. By the way,the cities here in Mexico, and I refer to Guadalajara, Mexico City, Oaxaca, San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Merida and a number of other places are so beautiful and charming than the dreadful Silicon Valley that I consider us damn lucky to live here. Unless compelling fate intervenes, we will never go back up there.


----------



## Hound Dog

_


Isla Verde said:



I'm surprised it's taken you this long to appreciate what a fine human being my fellow moderator is!

Click to expand...

_ Actually, I´ve known it for some time but have withheld compliments to TG and his moderator style in an attempt to maintain some mode of personal ambiguity. Although TG is, I think, a Vegan, an inoffensive personal defect if not constantly declared in a cultish fashion, I forgive him this personality quirk but I do not understand how anyone can swear off cheese or do I have it wrong.

After all, I´m a Bama boy where the main meal consists of some creature previously running from the hatchet squealing before having its throat cut and becoming that night´s BBQ. Maybe I´ll give up meat as well.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Actually, I´ve known it for some time but have withheld compliments to TG and his moderator style in an attempt to maintain some mode of personal ambiguity. Although TG is, I think, a Vegan, an inoffensive personal defect if not constantly declared in a cultish fashion, I forgive him this personality quirk but I do not understand how anyone can swear off cheese or do I have it wrong.
> 
> ...


Yes, TG is a vegan, and he has told me that includes no dairy products, including cheese, wonderful cheese. I have a Mexican friend who is in the process of setting up a business based on the sale of foreign and domestic artisanal cheeses, and she was horrified to learn that there are eating regimes that forbid their consumption  .


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## lagoloo

I've wondered about that "no dairy products" rule.
Since cows are vegetarian eaters and milk is an end-process of ingesting said vegetarian diet, what is the reason for the ban? Just curious.


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## lagoloo

The time limit on editing posts had expired. However, I looked it up on the web and Wikipedia provided the answer to the question.


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## RVGRINGO

I also think highly of our moderator, TG, but had occasion to wonder if his adherence to his dietary restriction might have been weakening. I was hospitalized in Guadalajara and he was kind enough to visit me; not just once, but every day. Maybe the fact that I was having some of my deteriorating innards removed was sufficent to reinforce his vegan persuasion. I did appreciate the visits, though.
In case he is reading this, I must admit that I am not doing fine with a shortened disposal system and am enjoying my carniverous ways again; though in smaller quantities at a time. I will also admit that I envy his slender physique and ability to run and even see where he is going. Will veganism do that at this late date?


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## Hound Dog

I spent some time at the Tuesday farmer´s market in Ajijic this morning which, laughingly calls itself the "organic" market but that childish affectation is forgivable at Lake Chapala where nothing is as it seems for a number of reasons. At this market this morning I bought collard greens, turnip greens with attached roots, smoked Oregon Salmon, beautiful tomatoes and onions and other enticing products for my dinner tonight. I´ll take living in Paradise with fresh food products even when the "organic" designation is frivolously applied as it is here in Mexico.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> I´ll take living in Paradise with fresh food products even when the "organic" designation is frivolously applied as it is here in Mexico.


How did/do you determine that the produce labeled as "organic" wasn't what it was claimed to be?


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> How did/do you determine that the produce labeled as "organic" wasn't what it was claimed to be?


Here, just outside the city limits, organic means they tapped into a sewer line and used black water to irrigate the lettuce fields. :confused2:


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## Cristobal

We recently relocated to the beach. We lived in the town 40 years ago before we moved to Guadalajara for better opportunities in business and education for our children. But we always maintained a home here at the beach and planned on one day returning permanently. My wife's family is from here. Throughout the years we spent many months here when the kids had time off from school.

Like everywhere else it has received an influx of foreign residents, although, and fortunately, few reside here year round. The winter months of course gets the snowbirds and all of their baggage. It is unbelievable how meddlesome many of those are. First you have the damned Rotarians. Then they start one of those "Amigos de -----" groups. The higher the visibility of their "helping the community" activities, the more participants they get. How they can accomplish any work with one hand while the other is constantly slapping their self on the back is pretty impressive.

I have avoided Chapala for the past 30 years because of exactly what you speak of, Mutt. But now it looks like people with the same mentality are turning this town into a Chapala by the Sea. The town, in spite of the heat and humidity, has such a nicer vibe in the summer when most are gone.

Call a place paradise, kiss it goodbye.


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## AlanMexicali

Cristobal said:


> We recently relocated to the beach. We lived in the town 40 years ago before we moved to Guadalajara for better opportunities in business and education for our children. But we always maintained a home here at the beach and planned on one day returning permanently. My wife's family is from here. Throughout the years we spent many months here when the kids had time off from school.
> 
> Like everywhere else it has received an influx of foreign residents, although, and fortunately, few reside here year round. The winter months of course gets the snowbirds and all of their baggage. It is unbelievable how meddlesome many of those are. First you have the damned Rotarians. Then they start one of those "Amigos de -----" groups. The higher the visibility of their "helping the community" activities, the more participants they get. How they can accomplish any work with one hand while the other is constantly slapping their self on the back is pretty impressive.
> 
> I have avoided Chapala for the past 30 years because of exactly what you speak of, Mutt. But now it looks like people with the same mentality are turning this town into a Chapala by the Sea. The town, in spite of the heat and humidity, has such a nicer vibe in the summer when most are gone.
> 
> Call a place paradise, kiss it goodbye.


Here the Rotary International Club has a beautiful building with large beautifully landscaped grounds and a salon for events. My wife belonged, all local Mexicans, and quit several years later as their soliciticing for their many charitable projects and municipal projects from their members was very guilt induced, heavy handed and out of control, in her opinion. She said the built parks and soccer and baseball fields in parts of the city as an example. I see their metal plaque on some of them when driving around.


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## Hound Dog

_


Longford said:



How did/do you determine that the produce labeled as "organic" wasn't what it was claimed to be?[/QUOTE

Click to expand...

_


Longford said:


> ]
> 
> Whether in the huge indigenous market in San Cristóbal de Las Casas or the "organiic" Tuesday market in West Ajijic, no vendors even pretend that their produce is truly "organic". In Northern California where we lved for decades, the standards for declaring produce as organic were strictly enforced but here in Jalisco or Chiapas this is a joke and no true standards exist. That does not mean that the produce one buys, especially in the Chiapas Highlands as grown by the indigenous on surrounding milpas , is not excelllent and, frankly, I prefer their produce over just about any I ever tasted since that eldrly black guy used to drive his mule drawn wagon by my house in Southern Alabama in the 1950s selling turnips, collards, carrots and green beans he had grown himself and just harvested. I just returned yesterday from the tuesday market in West Ajijic with turnip greens and roots, collards and Green onions and the only reason I haven't cooked those splendid greens and roots so far is that I needed some "fat back" (tocina cruda) to add the necessary flavor to take me back to South Alabama circa 1953 which I found today at Tony´s meat market adjacent to the Super Lake Market in San Antonio Tlayacapan.
> 
> By the way, in Chiapas, when I asked about "organic" vegetables among locals, they responded, "You mean when folks poop in the field among the rows?" I guess that is as organic as it gets.


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## Longford

:focus:

The subject of the conversation is Lakeside.


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## GARYJ65

I have a neighbor, every time someone ask her about living here, she says it is a terrible place, smelly, bugs, bad weather, crime....
I asked her about her answer, since all that was not true, and she said she does that to avoid people from moving here....
Sometimes places are better as they usually are


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## Hound Dog

GARYJ65 said:


> I have a neighbor, every time someone ask her about living here, she says it is a terrible place, smelly, bugs, bad weather, crime....
> I asked her about her answer, since all that was not true, and she said she does that to avoid people from moving here....
> Sometimes places are better as they usually are


Very good, Gary.

Earlier I posted about the experience we had on the Alabama Coast and the fact that Canadians and Midwesterners had discovered the place and driven once modest real estate prices through the roof by migrating there. Then once they had settled in they noticed the gnats and mosquitoes. giant cockroaches that loved to fly into your hair at night as you lay in bed, deadly snakes of all kinds and countless other vermin attracted to semi-tropical environments and these folks from the frozen tundra often took to complaining about the creepy crawly creatures with whom they had to share the planet down on the Gulf Coast as well as the hot and humid climate that could curl you hair. We natives of the región always had the same response. " I-65 (which goes from Chicago to New Orleans) goes north as well as south. Adios."

Well, I must warn NOBBERS thinking of moving down here, at least to the Lake Chapala área, that the weather is exceedingly boring almost all the time. In the 50sF at night and the mid-70sF at midday. It´s like living in San Diego without the morning fog. If I were you I´d retire to Madison, Wisconsin where the climate is changeable and the intellectual challenges daunting.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> Earlier I posted about the experience we had on the Alabama Coast and the fact that Canadians and Midwesterners had discovered the place and driven once modest real estate prices through the roof by migrating there. Then once they had settled in they noticed the gnats and mosquitoes. giant cockroaches that loved to fly into your hair at night as you lay in bed, deadly snakes of all kinds and countless other vermin attracted to semi-tropical environments and these folks from the frozen tundra often took to complaining about the creepy crawly creatures with whom they had to share the planet down on the Gulf Coast as well as the hot and humid climate that could curl you hair. We natives of the región always had the same response. " I-65 (which goes from Chicago to New Orleans) goes north as well as south. Adios."
> 
> Well, I must warn NOBBERS thinking of moving down here, at least to the Lake Chapala área, that the weather is exceedingly boring almost all the time. In the 50sF at night and the mid-70sF at midday. It´s like living in San Diego without the morning fog. If I were you I´d retire to Madison, Wisconsin where the climate is changeable and the intellectual challenges daunting.



Ok, HD, I know you perceive everything north of the 49th parallel as frozen tundra, but we do have woods (bears included) and we do thaw out from time to time. When we thaw, so do the bugs. Canadians have plenty of experience with biting bugs.

The "Blackfly Song" is an iconic tribute to one or our worst offenders:


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## Hound Dog

_


ojosazules11 said:



Ok, HD, I know you perceive everything north of the 49th parallel as frozen tundra, but we do have woods (bears included) and we do thaw out from time to time. When we thaw, so do the bugs. Canadians have plenty of experience with biting bugs.

The "Blackfly Song" is an iconic tribute to one or our worst offenders:

http://youtu.be/qjLBXb1kgMo

Click to expand...

_Highly entertaining ojo - many thanks.

Reminds me of two other tales. When I was a kid, my first trip north of Alabama was to the Northern Minnesota town of Grand Rapids and it was there that I encountered the giant, voraciously hungry for blood and ubiquitous Minnesota mosquito. I love the "black fly" song and we have nothing like them in Alabama except the occasional nasty horsefly bloodsuckers which can sting the merde out of you.

My other tale has to do with my French wife who moved to Mobile in the 1970s. She was not used to the U.S. Gulf Coast so was unaware that once the breezes changed from off the sea to off the inland swamps, the mosquitos came to the beach in indescribable numbers with the intent of sucking you dry of all of your blood. She fell asleep on the beach at Dauphin Island about mid-afternoon one day and awoke being attacked mercilessly by these monsters. Thank God we only lived 12 miles away so she escaped but with considerably more wisdom about the tropics. 

Those black flies seem to be unpleasant creatures.


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## coondawg

///


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## Hound Dog

_


coondawg said:



///

Click to expand...

_I presume, based on the fundamentals of that last reponse, that living in Leon too long is detrimental to one´s mental facilities.


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## Hound Dog

Hound Dog said:


> I presume, based on the fundamentals of that last reponse, that living in Leon too long is detrimental to one´s mental facilities.


I´m actully beginning to like you CD.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> *[*QUOTE=Hound Dog;7215290]
> 
> I presume, based on the fundamentals of that last reponse, that living in Leon too long is detrimental to one´s mental facilities.





> I´m actully beginning to like you CD.


Actually, I do have a few faults, but fortunately they are very few and very minor.


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## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> Actually, I do have a few faults, but fortunately they are very few and very minor.


Reminds me of one of my my favorite movirs, _SOME LIKE IT HOT _when in the closing scene, Jack Lemmon says to Jack E. Leanard as they speed off in a power boat; "I can´t marry you, I´m a man," To which Jack E. Leanard replies, "Well, nobody´s perfect,"


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## AlanMexicali

Hound Dog said:


> I presume, based on the fundamentals of that last reponse, that living in Leon too long is detrimental to one´s mental facilities.





coondawg said:


> Actually, I do have a few faults, but fortunately they are very few and very minor.


Is that a professional opinion or is it what your wife tells you?


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## coondawg

hound dog said:


> reminds me of one of my my favorite movirs, _some like it hot _when in the closing scene, jack lemmon says to jack e. Leanard as they speed off in a power boat; "i can´t marry you, i´m a man," to which jack e. Leanard replies, "well, nobody´s perfect,"


Yep,


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## mattoleriver

Clearly Joe E. Brown


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## chrisallan

I,ve been to Cuernavaca, it was a beautiful city. As I was there I wondered what it would be like to live there. I saw very few gringos but no one bothered me or even gave me a second look, and I,m a pale white man from Canada !


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## mes1952

If you've done much research about living in Mexico, Cuernavaca is in the top 5 most expensive cities to live. Someone (don't remember the website) has a blog with cost of living comparisons between San Miguel Allenda & Cuernavaca .


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## Hound Dog

lagoloo said:


> IMO, Dawg, you are becoming overly cranky about your Lakeside neighbors. They have ALWAYS included the pushy, the snotty and the arrogant asholes along with some very considerate and pleasant people. As one gets crankier, they tend to notice the things they don't like even more.
> 
> ...I'm sure there are some mountain monastery vacancies available if it all becomes unbearable.


Actually, lagoloo, I wrote my comments on "insufferable" expats some time ago so I cannot remember why I was "cranky" that day. Generally speaking, I am less cranky than I was when we arrived here in 2001 as time has increasingly separated me from all those insufferable California bankers with whom I had to associate for some 30 years due to a poor career choice.

As we live in a rather secluded área of the Chapala Municipality adjacent to seemingly endless deserted Lake Chapala beaches and mostly associate with our five mutts while engaging in beach strolls rarely encountering other beachgoers, there is no need to resort to the vigorous disciplines associated with mountain monestaries and, besides, I might find my fellow supplicants at the monestary insufferable as well and my escape options limited.

It is possible to llive a somewhat secluded life here if one so chooses and still take advantage of the amenities available in the Chapala área and, besides, we live in rural mountainous Chiapas about half of each year where the lifestyle is entirely different from that of the expat colony at Lake Chapala. That is not to say the Chiapas lifestyle is better, just very different. We have found, over the last eight years we have lived in both places, that both places eventually wear thin and a change of environments becomes desirable periodically. 

Sorry to disappoint you but Dawg is not headed for any mountain monestary and, besides, I am no longer angry at anyone no matter their origin.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> . . . Sorry to disappoint you but Dawg is not headed for any mountain monestary and, besides, I am no longer angry at anyone no matter their origin.


I have resolved to give up being angry at people (except for the idiots who let El Chapo escape ) for my 70th birthday, which I recently celebrated. It takes up too much energy and no doubt shaves weeks and months from the rest of my life. I'm glad to hear that you have made the same resolution, HD. And in the words of the immortal Mr. Spock, may we both "Live long and prosper"!


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> I have resolved to give up being angry at people (except for the idiots who let El Chapo escape ) for my 70th birthday, which I recently celebrated. It takes up too much energy and no doubt shaves weeks and months from the rest of my life. I'm glad to hear that you have made the same resolution, HD. And in the words of the immortal Mr. Spock, may we both "Live long and prosper"!


Aunque sea un poco atrasado, te deseo ¡un cumpleaños muy feliz y que cumplas MUCHOS MAS!

Happy Belated Birthday!


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## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> Aunque sea un poco atrasado, te deseo ¡un cumpleaños muy feliz y que cumplas MUCHOS MAS!
> 
> Happy Belated Birthday!


Thanks, ojos. One benefit of turning 70 (apart from lots of birthday celebrations) is that now I can take the Metrobús for free!


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks, ojos. One benefit of turning 70 (apart from lots of birthday celebrations) is that now I can take the Metrobús for free!


So tell me... Have you adopted the Mexican custom of biting the cake after blowing out the candles?

That's my kids' favourite part. I cringe as I see nearly half the cake ruined by the bite and subsequent face being pushed into the cake by those crowded round. At my husband's last birthday, he tricked my son and my son's friend, who were hovering on each side of him ready to push his head down into the cake and give him a faceful of frosting. When my husband went down to supposedly bite the cake, he instead filled each hand with the whipped cream frosting and wiped it on each of their faces!


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## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> So tell me... Have you adopted the Mexican custom of biting the cake after blowing out the candles?
> 
> That's my kids' favourite part. I cringe as I see nearly half the cake ruined by the bite and subsequent face being pushed into the cake by those crowded round. At my husband's last birthday, he tricked my son and my son's friend, who were hovering on each side of him ready to push his head down into the cake and give him a faceful of frosting. When my husband went down to supposedly bite the cake, he instead filled each hand with the whipped cream frosting and wiped it on each of their faces!


This is not a universal Mexican custom, at least I've never seen it done at any of the many Mexican birthday parties I've been to. Many it's a custom peculiar to Tepoztlán, where you've told us your husband is from. What a waste of a perfectly good birthday cake!


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> This is not a universal Mexican custom, at least I've never seen it done at any of the many Mexican birthday parties I've been to. Many it's a custom peculiar to Tepoztlán, where you've told us your husband is from. What a waste of a perfectly good birthday cake!





Hound Dog said:


> Actually, lagoloo, I wrote my comments on "insufferable" expats some time ago so I cannot remember why I was "cranky" that day. Generally speaking, I am less cranky than I was when we arrived here in 2001 as time has increasingly separated me from all those insufferable California bankers with whom I had to associate for some 30 years due to a poor career choice.…


I saw it for the first time at a birthday part about two weeks ago. We used to have birthday parties every month in an office I worked in (CONAFOR), but it was never done there.

As far as HD being less cranky, I am glad I didn't know you when you arrived in 2001, if you were more cranky then than now.


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> This is not a universal Mexican custom, at least I've never seen it done at any of the many Mexican birthday parties I've been to. Many it's a custom peculiar to Tepoztlán, where you've told us your husband is from. What a waste of a perfectly good birthday cake!


I've seen it done at nearly all the Mexican birthday parties I've been at in Toronto - with Mexicans from various areas, including Veracruz, Puebla, Tapachula, and some of the more northern states. And I first saw it 20-odd years ago in Mexico, so I know it's not just a Toronto Mexican thing. 

After blowing out the candles, the refrain begins: "¡Qué lo muerda, qué lo muerda!" or "¡Mordida! ¡Mordida!" You get the drift...

I have not seen it at birthday parties from other Latin American countries, just those for Mexicans.

Googling "mordiendo el pastel Mexico" brings up images, and even YouTube videos about "biting the cake". I wonder how and when this tradition (for some) started? It can get quite rowdy in our family - at my niece's small (family only) Quinceañera my son really got his cousin's face full of frosting - and then she chased him around the room to smear it back on him. Even _abuelita_ got some frosting on her face in the ensuing fracas. She loves her sweets but can't have much due to her diabetes, so she had a big smile on her face as she licked off the frosting. Maybe we're just a rowdy bunch.


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## Cristobal

I agree with ojoazules11, I have seen it countless times. Having raised 3 children in Guadalajara I went to more children's birthday parties than I ever wanted to. Not only here but in Michoacan and Colima where we also have family.


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## Isla Verde

Cristobal said:


> I agree with ojoazules11, I have seen it countless times. Having raised 3 children in Guadalajara I went to more children's birthday parties than I ever wanted to. Not only here but in Michoacan and Colima where we also have family.


Maybe this custom is more usual at children's birthday parties than at ones for adults. All the parties I've attended in Mexico City were for adults.


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## GARYJ65

That "tradition" will soon disappear as in many parties now it's taken as vulgar and rude to push anyone's head towards the cake, not mentioning how disgusting it would be to eat that cake afterwards.


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## Cristobal

GARYJ65 said:


> That "tradition" will soon disappear as in many parties now it's taken as vulgar and rude to push anyone's head towards the cake, not mentioning how disgusting it would be to eat that cake afterwards.


How soon?


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## citlali

I have seen it at every birthday party for kids. I have numerous pictures of kids with cake all over their face too. 
Gary , are you saying it is disappearing at kids´parties? I have yet to go to a party where it was not done.


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## ojosazules11

I agree it's a kids' thing - although my kids like to do it to their parents - especially their dad, who is quite the _bromista_, which I think they inherited. 

Gary, for hygiene and the "yuck" factor, I would never serve the smushed part to anyone except the _cumpleañero_. I cut around that part and only serve the untouched part of the cake to guests. It means I have to factor in that "loss" when calculating how big a cake I need.

I'm still wondering about the origins of this "bite".


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## GARYJ65

Cristobal said:


> How soon?


 I would not know, but in many parties nowadays sometimes some people start asking for that "mordida, mordida" and the rest of the guests just stare at them and say... Nah, as in....stop doing that.... Even at kids parties, that is taken as vulgar and lack of respect to children to stick their faces in the cake Most probably it began with someone that wanted to expose others in public. Silly
I think it is a bully like action


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## ojosazules11

GARYJ65 said:


> I would not know, but in many parties nowadays sometimes some people start asking for that "mordida, mordida" and the rest of the guests just stare at them and say... Nah, as in....stop doing that.... Even at kids parties, that is taken as vulgar and lack of respect to children to stick their faces in the cake Most probably it began with someone that wanted to expose others in public. Silly
> I think it is a bully like action


It's only a bully type action if it's forced on someone in a mean way or who really doesn't want it. At the same party where my son got his 15 yr old cousin, we also had a cake for a 7 year old great-niece whose personality is less rough and tumble. She gently "bit" her cake, but no one pushed her face into it. Even though nothing had been said to warn them off, it seemed the other kids just knew that for her instead of being fun, it would be upsetting. We may be a rowdy bunch, but not "vulgar and rude" I hope.


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