# A Sad Story



## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

Last fall, neighbors came and asked to borrow quite a bit of money, several hundred dollars. A brother-in-law had cirrhosis, and needed expensive treatment. I never expected to see the money again, but felt it was appropriate in that emergency to help out.

To my surprise, though it took a while, they paid me back.

Later, he got sick again, and they borrowed some more. Then, before they could pay me back, he died, and they asked for more, to help with the funeral expenses. Again, I assumed it would be a gift, not a loan, but decided to help in their time of sadness.

Yesterday, they came to update me on their plans to pay us back. The widow will sell the small house they had, and live with her parents, doing work as a household employee to earn what she can.

In talking, they mentioned the widow had 5 children under age 7. And, finally said she gave one away, the youngest, a boy. He went to Tijuana.

I realize this is a wild guess, but based on things I have heard over the years, I am guessing he will be 'sold' to a couple in the US. No child is supposed to be adopted out of country, without special permission from the Federal government, and only a handful of permits are granted each year.

But, some years ago, a border attorney openly advertised on a message board he could provide babies, with adoption papers signed by a judge. I believed he could; there are plenty of corrupt Mexican judges who will sign anything for the right price. But, it still would not be a legal adoption under Mexican law, even if the US accepted it. I kept pointing out Mexican Federal law, and he finally posted my name and address on the board, which to people living near the border is understood to be a death threat.

Anyway, this is sad that a widow is forced to give up one of her babies because her husband died.

Sorry to post a tragic tale, but not everything in Mexico is joy and happiness. This is as much a part of my life as the good times.


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## Trailrunner (Mar 18, 2012)

You're sure the child wasn't _given_ to a family member in Tijuana?


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

I do not think that is what they said. However, I hope that is the case. I will ask them next time. Thanks for pointing out the possible misunderstanding. Knowing Alejandro, I believe he would have plainly said if it was an intra-family transfer. Those are actually very common in Mexico when there are large families.

However, to make clear what I do know, he did imply given, not sold, if you are thinking I meant that. I am the one who has reason to suspect the baby will be sold NOB, based strictly on what I have known in the past. I do like happy endings.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

PieG:
You are a person of compassion from what you have posted, and I have a question. I do not believe that if the only reason she is selling her house is to pay you back that you would let her do it, right? You have shown that you have a heart and conscience that transcends money...I am sure her decision was as tough on you as it was on her.

You are to be greatly admired for your generousity.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

For a few hundred dollars I would think about just gifting her the money letting her keep her family together and her home and you keeping a good neighbor and you feeling like a million dollars......


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

I was not even aware of the plan to give away the child until it was done. Yes, I might have helped keep them together, but had no opportunity to be involved. I mean, how much does it cost to keep a small child in Mexico? I put a niece through university, this would be much cheaper. They made their decision without my opinion.

It will be some time before I get to ask more about the home if any in Tijuana, whether family or not. As I said Alejandro usually gives great details, so I assumed it was not family. Will ask.

I do not help people because it makes me feel important, but because in some cases the money is better spent on them than on another laptop for myself.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

PieGrande said:


> I was not even aware of the plan to give away the child until it was done. Yes, I might have helped keep them together, but had no opportunity to be involved. I mean, how much does it cost to keep a small child in Mexico? I put a niece through university, this would be much cheaper. They made their decision without my opinion.
> 
> It will be some time before I get to ask more about the home if any in Tijuana, whether family or not. As I said Alejandro usually gives great details, so I assumed it was not family. Will ask.
> 
> I do not help people because it makes me feel important, but because in some cases the money is better spent on them than on another laptop for myself.


I think part of the question above pertained to perhaps forgiving the debt so that there would be no need to sell the family home and she then would have a place for whatever children remain. It may be that you are not in a position to forgive that debt but that was the key part of the question - the house.

I do appreciate your posts and your attitude to the local people, customs and your generosity. May you get a reward from the one that really counts.


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## La Osita (Oct 31, 2010)

This is a very sad situation. I've seen it happen here as well. Too many children to feed and no income. Deaths that might not have occurred were there enough money and possibility for medical care. Thank you for helping as you could. I'm sure it was a blessing for the family.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

itnavell said:


> This is a very sad situation. I've seen it happen here as well. Too many children to feed and no income. Deaths that might not have occurred were there enough money and possibility for medical care. Thank you for helping as you could. I'm sure it was a blessing for the family.


This whole situation is too close to home for me.

My grandmother, at a young age the mother of 7 kids, went back to England to have her 8th, so that her family could care for her, instead of the distrusted strangers in upstate NY.

She took my dad's youngest brother with her, not yet one when they left.

My grandmother died in childbirth. And her two older sisters, upper class British maiden ladies, who could easily have afforded to care for the little ones till my grandfather could get there to take them home, gave my dad's two little brothers up for adoption.

Michael was the baby who left with my Grandma. Hence, my name.

The happy ending for that is that he found his family a couple of years ago, and cousins on the east coast, along with two of his sisters, were able to be reunited, in their 80's.

Most of his siblings, though, died without ever knowing their little brother. The infant has never been traced.

The situation with your neighbor is so terribly sad, PieGrande. I wish that it were more rare, but not that long ago, it was a commonplace, as with my great aunts' decision.

They were not shunned for making it, rather, it was considered sensible on their parts.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

mickisue1 said:


> This whole situation is too close to home for me.
> 
> My grandmother, at a young age the mother of 7 kids, went back to England to have her 8th, so that her family could care for her, instead of the distrusted strangers in upstate NY.
> 
> ...


I would like to explain something about the Mexican culture. .I suspect some of you already know what I am going to write, but, it is obvious some do not. A reminder that while I think it's the same all over Mexico, I cannot be sure of that, since I don't live all over Mexico.

The quickest way to offend self-respecting Mexicans is to offer them charity. I do not want to suggest all Mexicans are self-respecting, but most are.

They will accept help from family, and do not usually consider it to be charity. But, when someone not in the family offers what they perceive as charity, even if they need it, they will reject it, and will be offended.

I was thinking about this as I drove yesterday to Tehuacan. My builder is also my cousin and we are very close. When I get bored, I walk up the hill and visit them. I keep my work for them because work is tight.

For a couple years, whenever he wanted to go to the village across the mountains, he would call me, and I would drive him, whatever hour of day or night, to care for the old (90's) aunt and uncle.

His kids come down and use my Internet. When I ate something bad for me, a few weeks ago, he hurried down and drove me to the government clinic.

So, he and his family view me as part of their family separate from my wife, who is his first cousin.

Last summer, his MIL dies, around 90. He borrowed money for the funeral costs. I assumed since she had a really big family, they all helped. Something he said made it clear he got stuck with the whole cost.

So, when his FIL, nearly 100, died several months later, I didn't ask. I just took 5,000 pesos and gave to him, and told him I was going to help, since I realized his siblings were not going to.

He took the money, the coffin cost around 4,000 pesos. But, first, we drove to the house of the deceased. He asked his siblings if it was okay to take the money, since he viewed me as part of the family.

I believe they are well aware we are often together, his wife is my wife's best friend, so I do believe they do accept me as part of the family.

They all pretty much said, "Sure, it's okay." I don't know, but I suspect if they rejected me as part of the family, he would have insisted he pay it back as a loan.

In the case of the SIL of my neighbors, the mother who gave her kid away, not sure to whom yet, as I said above, anything I offered would be viewed as charity because I am not part of the family.

It isn't just a case of her not accepting the money if I offered. It may well be the reason they didn't discuss it with me before the deed was gone, was because it would have to be charity.

Now, maybe Mom would have accepted it as a matter of desperation, we will never know. But, the neighbors themselves would not at all think of the possibility of me contributing to the care of those kids, so no mention was made until after it was done.

So, the generous American offering to bail out a troubled family is not as easy as it might sound.

###

Micki, that is an equally sad story. Thanks for sharing.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

Also, it is common that any man who supports a woman and her kids would expect "privileges".


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

PieGrande said:


> Last fall, neighbors came and asked to borrow quite a bit of money, several hundred dollars. A brother-in-law had cirrhosis, and needed expensive treatment. I never expected to see the money again, but felt it was appropriate in that emergency to help out.
> 
> To my surprise, though it took a while, they paid me back.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that post. It not only answered the questions that were posted, including mine, but also gave me an insight into Mexican culture that I did not understand.

That is the wonderful thing about this forum. You thing you have a simple and reasonable question to ask and it turns out to be much more complex that you realize. Without an answer like you provided I would still be in the dark. Now I understand. You have done what you could and that is all that can be asked of anyone. Again, thank you.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

*I will always be learning*



Detailman said:


> Thank you for that post. It not only answered the questions that were posted, including mine, but also gave me an insight into Mexican culture that I did not understand.
> 
> That is the wonderful thing about this forum. You thing you have a simple and reasonable question to ask and it turns out to be much more complex that you realize. Without an answer like you provided I would still be in the dark. Now I understand. You have done what you could and that is all that can be asked of anyone. Again, thank you.


Thank you. I am well aware that going completely native as I have done gives me a unique view of Mexican culture. I don't know so much about expat stuff, but I do get a major insight.

I rather brazenly ask trusted people really hard questions about the culture or even personal view points.

For example. a couple years ago, while driving our builder/cousin on one of many trips to take care of the now deceased aunt and uncle, I asked him if he died, would he think it would be a good thing or a bad thing for his wife to have another man in her life. (She is now 52 and romantic prospects in this village for 52 year old widows is very small.

To my surprise, he said while it would be rare for her to find another man at her age in this village, he thought if she could, it would be good. He said several times even if it were a temporary man, as long as he was a good man.

I asked what if her children, mostly adults, objected. He said if it were a good man, it is none of their business. They have their spouses and families and they have no right to say anything about her finding another man. (Read lover, I think.) If he is a good man.

My interpretation of this is this man dearly loves his wife, though he talks like he is about to leave her for another woman, he knows her, knows her needs, and wants her to be happy in life, even if he is dead.

I was very surprised, and after considerable thought, I realized he loves her much more than he admits, perhaps even to her. I had assumed most macho Mexican men would say, "I'd rather see her die first" or something like that.

These talks give me a lot of information you do not find in books or on the Web.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

PieGrande said:


> So, the generous American offering to bail out a troubled family is not as easy as it might sound...


I agree. Even our handyman will only accept fair payment for his services. He got into trouble at Christmas and we gave him 2000 pesos. It was worth it.

And those beach vendors will only respect you if you bargain properly. If you pay too much, they consider you a mark.

Remember those $10 watches you could buy at the airport? Back when we were tourists, we brought down 5 of them. Gave 2 to our maids as part of our tip then bargained with beach vendors to accept them in trade. We got our $10 value and they were able to sell them for $20.


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## diablita (May 7, 2010)

I've been living in Mexico since 1997. Live in a working class community with no other gringos around. Over the years I have lent thousands to friends and neighbors. Most of the time they pay me back, sometimes they don't. The point I'm getting to is that I'm not blowing my own horn so to speak, or looking for gratitude or sympathy. It's just the right thing to do. Hope I wasn't too blunt.


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## Retired-Veteran (Oct 29, 2011)

WOW PieGrande 

I have read this thread and learned a lot. Such a small amount of money (to me) can change someone's life so drastically. 

It's so sad that so many Americans spend far more than that on drugs and alcohol and don't think twice about it. 

As far as the lesson on helping down there I know I have so much to learn as to not offend or be taken wrong. I wish there was a book on the Mexican culture that I could read to learn some of these things.

In the past week, between talking to you and RVGringo, I can see that I could have a hard time adjusting to the culture. What I mean is that in my generosity I would very easily be misunderstood. 

I grew up in Detroit Mich. on one of the Still only dirt roads, from the 1960 to the 1980s. 
If I see someone in need and I only have $20 dollars I have been known to give it away (and even a lot more). 

All my life I have always thought this way - I hardly ever have money and so what's the difference if I'm broke one day sooner?" 

Only if those American that spend the money on drug and alcohol knew of the high that is felt when you help another human being in need. I guess in that aspect is where my selfishness comes in.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

An example:
Our maid's mother was shot on the street and hospitalized in the Hospital Civil ICU. Family members are required to stay in the waiting area, 24/7, and to be available to make runs to the 'farmacia' and other in-hospital sources of necessary supplies. As such, Maria was there without even a toothbrush. Within a block, everything was available & we could have given money. However, that would seem too much like 'charity'. So, we bought a pillow, quilts, toiletries, undergarments and a change of clothing, canned goods with rip-top openers and some snack items, bottled water, etc. We delivered it all to the hospital, where she survived for the next three weeks, until her mother died. We attended the wake and did give a small bit of cash to help with the cost of the casket.
On other occasions, we've helped with transportation for a sick grandchild, but little more than that. She, and her daughters and grandchildren are almost like family and would do whatever the could for us. When we travel, they look after our home and pets and if we're ill, they're there with all the traditional remedies.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

Retired-Veteran said:


> WOW PieGrande
> 
> I have read this thread and learned a lot. Such a small amount of money (to me) can change someone's life so drastically.
> 
> ...


Not to worry, retired-veteran. With all you have done in your life, if you take it easy you, too, will learn. If you make friends as I think you will, they will teach you. I, too, have loaned money and sometimes they pay me back and sometimes they do not. To loan money, the drawback is more and more people will come by with sob stories until you stop loaning money, and commonly it is the people who have no intention of ever paying you back who will be most aggressive about borrowing.

There will be many opportunities to help. The first thing if you can is to find your family, which will usually involve a mate with a family nearby.

In my case, I helped a niece by paying for her 3.5 years of university. Since it was considered family, it was not objectionable.

Also, a little girl adopted me as her grandpa when she was so small her first hug was around my knees.. Now, she is a large 14 and we hug pretty much straight on. Her father is lazy, and usually out of work. They mostly get by somehow, but I do buy her school uniforms, and her shoes. And, if times are tight when school starts, I also pay the school costs for all 3 kids. The mother does accept the uniforms and shoes, because she knows we two do view each other as grandpa and grand-daughter, but does get embarrassed when I pay all the kids school enrollment costs.

Then, there is the little girl who lives in a village half an hour away. Her mother has apparently disappeared and believed to be murdered by her husband in Mexico City. Her grandparents were raising her, and her grandpa died of a heart attack (another reason I talk about a diet which eliminates such nonsense) so she now has only her grandma, who gets money from her kids in Houston.

I go visit that little girl every few weeks. She gets so excited when she sees me. I pick her up and hold her as high as I can, and she laughs and laughs. I also get down on the floor with her to play with her toys.

We take her a box of liters of Lala milk when we go. Of course, as a lifetime pastors wife, the grandma is used to accepting donations.

There will be plenty of opportunities to help without recriminations, based on the making of friends and/or obtaining family.


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