# FM2 vs. FM3



## popotla

According to my understanding, an FM2 requires a higher proof of income than an FM3, costs more to renew each year for the first five years, and allows less time out of the country. Compared with these possible disadvantages, however, the FM2 allows one to apply for _inmigrado_ status, some of the advantages of which are no annual renewal and therefore no annual income requirement and no annual renewal fee. These vwould be the "less hassle/lower cost" advantages, but there are other big issues such as the right to work freely, come and go freely, and to apply for Mexican citizenship.

Have I understood this correctly?

Now, as someone has said to me, after five years of FM2 there is no need to apply for _inmigrado_ status: one may wish to or may not wish to. But what reason(s) might there be for spending five years on the "FM2 road" and then not applying for i_nmigrado_?

For those currently with FM2's, what have been your reasons for choosing FM2 over FM3? in other words, what are the perceived advantages of FM2?


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## stanburn

I have an FM2 because I want to become a citizen and that is the only path. You pretty well understand the issues. When you achieve Immigrado status you can do anything you want except vote or own property in the restricted zone.

If you own property, the income requirements are halved.


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## RVGRINGO

Welcome, Stanburn. Glad to have you on the forum.
Yes, Popotla does seem to understand the situation correctly. I would only change the phrase, ".....an FM2 requires a higher proof of income than an FM3." to read 'an FM2 requires proof of more income than an FM3.' I'm not sure of the amount but think that it is something like 50-70% more.


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## HolyMole

popotla said:


> According to my understanding, an FM2 .....allows one to......work freely, come and go freely, and to apply for Mexican citizenship........../QUOTE]
> 
> An FM2 lets you work freely?


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## RVGRINGO

HolyMole said:


> popotla said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to my understanding, an FM2 .....allows one to......work freely, come and go freely, and to apply for Mexican citizenship........../QUOTE]
> 
> An FM2 lets you work freely?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you still need specific working permission from Immigration and a specific job. The FM2 can, after five years, lead to an application for either 'Inmigrado' or naturalization. Then you can work freely without permission and without having to prove foreign income.
Click to expand...


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## popotla

Actually, my o p didn't claim or suggest (I address this comment particularly to HolyMole) that an FM2 allowed the right to work freely. I suggested that inmigrado status, arising, possibly, from having an FM2 for five years, bestowed this right. This is what RVGRINGO, in the most recent contribution to this thread, has confirmed.


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## HolyMole

popotla said:


> Actually, my o p didn't claim or suggest (I address this comment particularly to HolyMole) that an FM2 allowed the right to work freely. I suggested that inmigrado status, arising, possibly, from having an FM2 for five years, bestowed this right. This is what RVGRINGO, in the most recent contribution to this thread, has confirmed.


I reread your original post and...yes... I was wrong.

I should have known better than to question a Brit's grammar. You folks usually make us colonials look like hillbillies when it comes to the use of the language.


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## popotla

HolyMole said:


> I reread your original post and...yes... I was wrong.
> 
> I should have known better than to question a Brit's grammar. You folks usually make us colonials look like hillbillies when it comes to the use of the language.


Hey, don't be so modest!


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## Mamii_Chulita

So if I was looking to move to Mexico, would an FM2 or an FM3 be better? Many sites say many different things.


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## joaquinx

With an FM2, you can get a drivers license in many states while an FM3 will only get you a permission to drive. The drivers license is good for up to five years while the permission is good for six months. This can vary from state to state. Many banks require an FM2 for apply for a credit card as will as to apply for a home loan. Again, this can vary from bank to bank.


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## TundraGreen

Mamii_Chulita said:


> So if I was looking to move to Mexico, would an FM2 or an FM3 be better? Many sites say many different things.


The no-inmigrante (FM3) costs less to renew each year, than the inmigrante (FM2).
However, after five years on an inmigrante (FM2), you can apply for inmigrado status which is a permanent residence permit that doesn't need to be renewed annually.
I believe there are limits on how much time you can spend outside of Mexico on an inmigrante (FM2), but no limits with an no-inmigrante (FM3).


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## maesonna

popotla said:


> Now, as someone has said to me, after five years of FM2 there is no need to apply for _inmigrado_ status: one may wish to or may not wish to.


No, according to my experience, this is not precisely true, or at least doesn’t give the full picture. After 5 years, you must apply for _inmigrado_ status if you want to keep your same visa. If you choose not to apply for _inmigrado_ status, you no longer have your visa and must start all over again with a new application for either an FM2 or FM3—not a renewal.



popotla said:


> For those currently with FM2's, what have been your reasons for choosing FM2 over FM3? in other words, what are the perceived advantages of FM2?


 If you expect to live in Mexico longterm, an FM2 is cheaper—and more convenient, too, because you do not have to do any renewals after the 5 years. No more annual trek to Migración, and no more fees. I don’t have the exact figures at hand to say exactly when the FM2 becomes cheaper option, but it must be at somewhere around 10 years, give or take a couple of years (it will also depend on whether it’s a _rentista_ or working visa, since the fees are different).

For an FM2, the maximum time you can stay outside of Mexico is 18 months out of the 5 years (either consecutively or cumulatively). 

After you are an _inmigrado_, the maximum time you can stay outside of Mexico without losing the status is either 3 years consecutively or 5 years cumulatively out of any 10 years.


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## dongringo

All those FM terms have been obliterated by "no inmigrante" and inmigrante visas.

If you are not seriously interested to stay in Mexico, stick with the FM3, it is cheaper and has the same rights and obligations as all the other visas. 

If you know you want to stay beyond 5 years, instead of the FM3, apply for the twice as expensive FM2 as soon as you can. A the end of 5 years you can apply for imigrado status whose only major benefit is to not have to hassle with immigration every year.

All basic visas, FM2, 3 and imigrado primarily give you no right to work, buy land in restricted zones, or express yourself politically.


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## TundraGreen

dongringo said:


> All basic visas, FM2, 3 and imigrado primarily give you no right to work, buy land in restricted zones, or express yourself politically.


Just to clarify, the no-inmigrante (FM3) and inmigrante (FM2) can include the right to work. It depends on what documentation you provide when you apply.


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## dongringo

TundraGreen said:


> Just to clarify, the no-inmigrante (FM3) and inmigrante (FM2) can include the right to work. It depends on what documentation you provide when you apply.


Yes, and you can also buy property in the restricted zone with a fidecomiso and shoot your mouth off as an invited guest speaker (see Hillary Clinton).


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## RVGRINGO

Note that an 'inmigrante lucrativa' (working FM2) eliminates your ability to maintain a foreign plated car in Mexico.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Note that an 'inmigrante lucrativa' (working FM2) eliminates your ability to maintain a foreign plated car in Mexico.


Interesting. How do the Mexicans do it? My former landlord had a minivan with Wisconsin plates on it, very outdated Wisconsin plates incidentally.


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## RVGRINGO

The "Mexicans do it" because they are not foreigners and the immigration and customs laws regarding cars are different for them. Also, the majority of the cars that you see with US plates, driven by Mexicans, are 'chocolates' and probably unregistered or insured anywhere.


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## CancunMike

*FM2 vs FM3*

Hey guy's .
I have been living in mexico for almost 10 years now.
All this time i have had an FM3. Untill now i started to apply for an FM2 because i'm about to have a kid and might need more rights in this country later on in regards to that.
An FM3 gives you the right to be in Mexico and work. This "permit' needs to be renewed every year and this is the same with an FM2. The difference between an FM3 vs FM2 is that an FM3 is very "work related" which means that in case you get fired from your job here in Mexico you have a certain amount of time to find a new job "OR ELSE" , in Mexico the "OR ELSE" means that you will get a "MULTA" or fine for that matter and you end up wishing you kept that job hahahaa , also if you are too late with turning in your papers for the renewal they get really anal. With an FM2 you are not so much bound by having a job anymore and they give you a bit more slack for that matter. With an FM2 you can also apply easier for a credit card.

But now the following: I live here now about 10 years. The FM2 is actually the primairy step to get your "Naturalizacion" and get you Mexican passport. My question to all those that are looking to stay here for the long haul as some might call it , Would you really want to become a Mexican and possibly loose your home identity? Think about it , if so many Mexicans cross the border illigally and barely make it , why would you want to become a Mexican???? God forbid that for whatever reason they trow you in jail (maybe because you needed to defend yourself on the street or some unwanted situation) do you think you are better of with a Mexican passport or a foreign passport?? Sorry but i'd stay the ExPat if you don't mind ;-) , i've been here long enough to know that you're better of being the foreigner.


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## maesonna

With either FM2 or FM3 you can be tied to an employer, or have permission to work independently, or not have permission to work at all (family dependent or other income). It depends what you apply for, and what they grant you, depending on your circumstances and documentation. I had an FM2 that was related to my employer; it only gave me permission to work for them. When that job was over, I applied to get my work permission changed to independent; that is, I could work for anyone. Likewise I know people with FM3's who have applied for independent work permission and got it.

The biggest difference in work permissions that I have observed, at least in people I know directly, isn't between FM3 and FM2 but between men and women. It seems to be easier for men to get permission to work independently than women. Not that this is official policy, it's just that it seems to work that way in practice.

I know they're not called FM2 and FM3 anymore, but the categories are the same, just with different names, as noted above.


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## joaquinx

CancunMike said:


> An FM3 gives you the right to be in Mexico and work. This "permit' needs to be renewed every year and this is the same with an FM2. The difference between an FM3 vs FM2 is that an FM3 is very "work related" . . . .


Please don't start giving out erroneous information regarding the FM3. It can be issued giving the holder the right to work for the applied for company, but its primary issuance is to reside in Mexico for a year on your own resources that you receive from another country. The typical one is people receiving retirement pensions and/or Social Security. I've had an FM3 for a number of years and I don't work.


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## CancunMike

*erroneous?*



joaquinx said:


> Please don't start giving out erroneous information regarding the FM3. It can be issued giving the holder the right to work for the applied for company, but its primary issuance is to reside in Mexico for a year on your own resources that you receive from another country. The typical one is people receiving retirement pensions and/or Social Security. I've had an FM3 for a number of years and I don't work.


Looking at this forum it appears that many people have had many different issues with their FM3. What you mean by eroneous information was and is still very real for me here (Cancun) maybe other states are different.
But here's a question (and maybe this is different for different expats) : How does one stay in Mexico on its own recources for a year before issuing an FM3 , if Mexico only allows you to have a tourist visa for 6 months? I take it that for that year someone also needs to have some kind of visa right?


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## joaquinx

CancunMike said:


> Looking at this forum it appears that many people have had many different issues with their FM3. What you mean by eroneous information was and is still very real for me here (Cancun) maybe other states are different.
> But here's a question (and maybe this is different for different expats) : How does one stay in Mexico on its own recources for a year before issuing an FM3 , if Mexico only allows you to have a tourist visa for 6 months? I take it that for that year someone also needs to have some kind of visa right?


By erroneous information, I was writing about your assumption the an FM3 is a "work related", which it is not, although you can get permission to work.

You can apply for an FM3 the same day you arrive in Mexico. You don't have to wait a year.
Head here for more info Inicio - Instituto Nacional de Migración


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## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> Please don't start giving out erroneous information regarding the FM3. It can be issued giving the holder the right to work for the applied for company, but its primary issuance is to reside in Mexico for a year on your own resources that you receive from another country. The typical one is people receiving retirement pensions and/or Social Security. I've had an FM3 for a number of years and I don't work.


I am not sure what you mean by "primary issuance". A no-inmigrante visa (FM3) requires that the holder have some means of support. That support can be income from any number of sources, a job, a pension, or regular deposits from any source. There are lots of people working in Mexico with a no-inmigrante visa (FM3). I am not really disagreeing with you, just quibbling about the language.


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## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> I am not sure what you mean by "primary issuance". A no-inmigrante visa (FM3) requires that the holder have some means of support. That support can be income from any number of sources, a job, a pension, or regular deposits from any source. There are lots of people working in Mexico with a no-inmigrante visa (FM3). I am not really disagreeing with you, just quibbling about the language.


I really didn't know how to express my thought, but I'll try again. The overwhelming number of persons who apply for and have an FM3 are retired people who receive their income from pensions, Social Security, etc. They do NOT work in Mexico. By "primary issuance" I meant the main reason for applying for an FM3.


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## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> The overwhelming number of persons who apply for and have an FM3 are retired people who receive their income from pensions, Social Security, etc.


Is that really true? All of the foreigners working in Mexico for short term are also on an FM3. All the people here teaching English, all of the people on a temporary assignment here for non-Mexican companies, all of the Peace Corps volunteers. You may be right though. All of those people combined may not equal the number of pensioners.


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## sparks

TundraGreen said:


> Is that really true? All of the foreigners working in Mexico for short term are also on an FM3. All the people here teaching English, all of the people on a temporary assignment here for non-Mexican companies, all of the Peace Corps volunteers. You may be right though. All of those people combined may not equal the number of pensioners.


Whatever the numbers for FM3 holders .... the point was that that previous info about FM3 being primarily work related and an FM2 is not - is wrong. The difference between the two is that an FM2 is the immigration route and the FM3 is not.


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## TundraGreen

sparks said:


> Whatever the numbers for FM3 holders .... the point was that that previous info about FM3 being primarily work related and an FM2 is not - is wrong. The difference between the two is that an FM2 is the immigration route and the FM3 is not.


Agreed.


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## RVGRINGO

Cancun Mike's post is loaded with errors and misinformation. Perhaps he would like to retract it while he studies the various options in the immigration system. Understandably, he is familiar with his own situation, but not with the 17, or so, other 'qualities of immigration' available to expats. As for naturalization; one may hold dual citizenship and would only be treated as a Mexican while in Mexico, for example. There is no need to give up the original citizenship.


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## PesoBob

RVGRINGO said:


> Cancun Mike's post is loaded with errors and misinformation. Perhaps he would like to retract it while he studies the various options in the immigration system. Understandably, he is familiar with his own situation, but not with the 17, or so, other 'qualities of immigration' available to expats. As for naturalization; one may hold dual citizenship and would only be treated as a Mexican while in Mexico, for example. There is no need to give up the original citizenship.


I think CancunMike is right on the money there chuck. It might have something to do with the state or area because i had similar things told to me from my own government and the Mexican government. Remember that most of you boys and girls decided to live somewhere in the middle of the country or some other towns where there are about 3 foreigners per 1000 Mexicans. I take it that CancunMike lives in Cancun where there are now so many more foreigners than a couple years ago. I remember that i was still considered special as being a Canadian 8 years ago. I know that it should not make the difference in which town or state you live in but lets be honest here THIS IS MEXICO!!!!!.

Anyway, for those of you that want FM3 vs FM2 in a nutshell , here's what i can tell you if you are looking to come to this country.
Step 1: Come on vacation to Mexico and on the form that you get on the plane you fill in the most amount of days that you are alowed to be a tourist. 180 days that is.
Step 2: When you get in the country you apply for an FM3. If you don't have a job here in Mexico you are asked where you will get your money from. (I actually found a job in the first month and they had to take care of the permit for me) that is probably the easier way but in the time i was in the process of getting that FM3 i was NOT allowed to work untill i had it. This is probably what CancunMike means by "work related". Many of the ExPats on this forum are retired people from the states that never had to go through the working part , but they still have to let Mexico know where they get there money from.
Step 3: With this FM3 you are now alowed to be in Mexico for a longer period of time and you can work for any boss you want as long as you renew that FM3 every year. Also when you change work your new boss has to go through a process where they change all that on the FM3. You are now also allowed to open a bank account.
Step 4: Make sure that you turn in your papers (for renewal) at least a month before the due date otherwise you will be fined (and they love to fine you for everything here)
Step 5: After 5 years of having your FM3 you can now apply for an FM2 (this period might be shorter if you get married to Mexican or get kids with a Mexican).
The FM2 is really there in case you are thinking of staying in Mexico. Not sure about others on this forum here but with an FM3 i could never get a credit card from a Mexican bank , now with an FM2 i can. 

People, i found that many forums tell many different things but these are all things that are real events that happend to real people. One person from the states might have his FM3 in about a week while others have to go through a load sh*^%t. 
This is where i said "THIS IS MEXICO" because it really depends on that one guy or girl that approves your FM3 for the time you will be waiting for it.

Having all this said, start with step 1 and take a good look at Mexico in those 180 days if you really want to make that step or not.
On another thread i had put a more elaborate comment about Mexico in and of itself and the things you will find here.

Good luck.

PesoBob, Tulum, in Mexico since January 2000


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## TundraGreen

PesoBob said:


> Step 5: After 5 years of having your FM3 you can now apply for an FM2 (this period might be shorter if you get married to Mexican or get kids with a Mexican).


To correct one misstatement: You can apply for a inmigrante (FM2) visa anytime. There is no requirement to hold a no-inmigrante (FM3) visa first. The 5 year period applies to the inmigrante (FM2) visa. After 5 years on an inmigrante (FM2) visa, you are eligible for inmigrado status. With that status you no longer need to annually renew visas.


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## TamiJ

CancunMike said:


> Hey guy's .
> I have been living in mexico for almost 10 years now.
> All this time i have had an FM3. Untill now i started to apply for an FM2 because i'm about to have a kid and might need more rights in this country later on in regards to that.
> An FM3 gives you the right to be in Mexico and work. This "permit' needs to be renewed every year and this is the same with an FM2. The difference between an FM3 vs FM2 is that an FM3 is very "work related" which means that in case you get fired from your job here in Mexico you have a certain amount of time to find a new job "OR ELSE" , in Mexico the "OR ELSE" means that you will get a "MULTA" or fine for that matter and you end up wishing you kept that job hahahaa , also if you are too late with turning in your papers for the renewal they get really anal. With an FM2 you are not so much bound by having a job anymore and they give you a bit more slack for that matter. With an FM2 you can also apply easier for a credit card.
> 
> But now the following: I live here now about 10 years. The FM2 is actually the primairy step to get your "Naturalizacion" and get you Mexican passport. My question to all those that are looking to stay here for the long haul as some might call it , Would you really want to become a Mexican and possibly loose your home identity? Think about it , if so many Mexicans cross the border illigally and barely make it , why would you want to become a Mexican???? God forbid that for whatever reason they trow you in jail (maybe because you needed to defend yourself on the street or some unwanted situation) do you think you are better of with a Mexican passport or a foreign passport?? Sorry but i'd stay the ExPat if you don't mind ;-) , i've been here long enough to know that you're better of being the foreigner.


I don't want to hijack, but you can do dual citizenship, can't you? So, I think the benefit would be to have more rights here in Mexico, and still keep your citizenship in your native country. 

Back to the OP's question (which looks as though others have already answered it pretty thoroughly), I know with my FM3 I can have my foreign plated vehicle here, but with an FM2, I cannot. But, I am not eligible for most credit cards with my FM3 (but I have a Mexican husband, so he can just get one) like I would be with an FM2.


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## RVGRINGO

As of today, there are no more FM3 or FM2 documents, other than 'Inmigrado'. They started phasing out exactly one year ago. The new visa forms are 'no inmigrante' and 'inmigrante'. Each has several variations or 'calidades'.
Step 5 in the previous post is completely wrong and a few others remain misleading. If you wish to become 'inmigrado' or naturalized, you may go directly to the 'inmigrante' visa (previously FM2). There is no need to spend any time on a lesser status. The normal time before 'inmigrado' or naturalization application is five years. However, a spousal relationship can shorten that to two years. Those over 60 might not have to take the written history test or language interview for naturalization.
Immigration rules are federal and do not vary by state, although the understanding and interpretation is sometimes 'fuzzy'. Many border agents have never seen these documents; only passports and FMM or the old, now obsolete, FMT.


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## masmgt

*FM2 v. FM3*



joaquinx said:


> With an FM2, you can get a drivers license in many states while an FM3 will only get you a permission to drive. The drivers license is good for up to five years while the permission is good for six months. This can vary from state to state. Many banks require an FM2 for apply for a credit card as will as to apply for a home loan. Again, this can vary from bank to bank.


I got a 4 year drivers license and then a 4 year renewal in Jalisco on an FM3. Both Bancomer and Banamex are advertising like crazy for ****** business. Bancomer will give you any product they have on an FM3. I am not sure about Banamex.

The real difference is the future. If you are here for life, an FM2 is best to avoid the annual renewal hassle (after the first 5 years). An FM3 lets you keep your US car as long as you wish and is cheaper and easier those first 5 years. But renewal goes on forever!


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## joaquinx

I believe that I'll hop on over to Banamex and if not them, I'll try Bancomer. One difference for many is the income requirement for an FM2 and that is around 1750 usd per month while the FM3 is 1200 usd. My math may be off, but I missed an FM2 this time by a few pesos.


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## sparks

The 2011 minimum income for an FM3 (No Inmigrante) will be $14,950 pesos (or $1292us) per month. For an FM2 (Inmigrante), it will be $23,920 pesos (or $2,068us).

Of course that depends on the exchange rate which is not especially good these days ... and will get worse


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## mcse9073

*Real Life Experience*

I am not going to argue or respond to a bunch of opinions with out facts. Here is what happened. Puerto Escondido Zicatela-My wife and kids R Mexican. Have property in Zicatela. After purchasing the property and meeting with the Federal officer in Puero Escondido for the first time , I was threatened with the security of my family by taking my children away. Upon receiving my FM3 the Federal officer in Puerto Escondido that I had lied on my documents and he was having me watched but did give me my FM3. After hiring 13 lawyers all which stole money from me or after talking to the same Federal officer raised their price to work on an FM2 to the price of $2000.00 up front. After finally did complete the FM2 process and the FM2 was in the hands of the Federal officer in Puerto Escondido the same guy refused to hand over the FM2 after it was complete and finalised. My lawyer said, "whom had pwr of atty" that he could not get it. My wife dissappeared at the time and left me and the two little children-she was threatened and left. I was beaten and put in the hospitol there. I took the two children and fled the country getting the word that the DIF would take the children. Lost wife-property-broken family. THis guy even had my little girl abused in the Kinder there in Zicatela. Beware trying to immigrate! We had the most right to immigrate of anyone but they do not like gringos on a budget. Racist trash is my opinion and my family is Mexican. Is why so many Mexican Americans look down on the across the border people. I say come home and fix your own country. make it what you want it to be and quit running to a place your not wanted except for your money.


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## TundraGreen

It seems clear to me, and not very surprising, that people's impression of Mexico is fixed by their own personal experience. If they have good experiences, they think Mexico is a great place; if they have bad experiences, they think it is a terrible place. 

One thing to keep in mind, is that when we hear about someone's experience on a forum like this, whether it be good or bad, we are only hearing one side of the story. Without meaning to discount the feelings of some of the unhappy posters on this forum, there are often multiple sides to a story.

My $0.02 usd worth.


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## mcse9073

TundraGreen said:


> It seems clear to me, and not very surprising, that people's impression of Mexico is fixed by their own personal experience. If they have good experiences, they think Mexico is a great place; if they have bad experiences, they think it is a terrible place.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, is that when we hear about someone's experience on a forum like this, whether it be good or bad, we are only hearing one side of the story. Without meaning to discount the feelings of some of the unhappy posters on this forum, there are often multiple sides to a story.
> 
> My $0.02 usd worth.


Only point to your comment and I do agree with you. Issue that I take is that everyone in love with Mexico does not like hearing the truth which is; Its a bad experience waiting, just because it hasn't found you beware its there. When it hits in Mexico its reeeeeeeely awful. My experince shows how high up in Gvt the corruption goes and that as an American there we really have no rights. I lost everything there. EVERYTHING gone-dissabled / retired 30 yrs work / Mx law is rigged / Its all gone... I have checked-We were intimidated off our property and its gone-nothing can be done short of traveling there and probably i would be killed trying to recover it. PS: One neighbor in Zicatela befor we left was tortured and killed. Within our colony two military check points and they destroyed underneath my dash a 40K dollar 4x4 cummins Big Horn-Just ripped the dash underneath. Too many horrible stories to tell. Children were even abused in the school Zicatela over race. Cut her hair off bald on top of her head. More store experiences many many.. Go down have fun bring cash. Then go home. If you sleep sound in Puerto Escondido its because your not aware of where you are. If your an American and wind up in trouble in Puerto Escondido for get it your in the spider lair.. Its all a big trap down there. Keep a low profile always in Mexico.


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## PesoBob

*also here two thumbs down*



TundraGreen said:


> It seems clear to me, and not very surprising, that people's impression of Mexico is fixed by their own personal experience. If they have good experiences, they think Mexico is a great place; if they have bad experiences, they think it is a terrible place.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, is that when we hear about someone's experience on a forum like this, whether it be good or bad, we are only hearing one side of the story. Without meaning to discount the feelings of some of the unhappy posters on this forum, there are often multiple sides to a story.
> 
> My $0.02 usd worth.


I vouch completely with the story of mcse9073. I have seen this happen more then once. 
I know that Tundragreen has a point by saying that its just one side of the story but Tundragreen forgets one important fact here, THIS IS MEXICO! i keep saying this with capital letters. When you live in Mexico and have to deal with shady lawyers and "federales" , most of these people is corrupt to the very last bone in their body. It will always be your story against them and , well, when a Mexican has a bit of power (over your FM2 or FM3 or whatever legal matter) they tend to squeez the last inch of power they have.


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## kazslo

*On topic:* My reasons for wanting an FM2 (on a fm3 currently), is that I hopefully (assuming I am granted citizenship) won't have to worry about interacting with inm after 2 years - no work permissions, no permissions for actas in the registro civil, no worrying about 'what if' I loose my visa and am away from my family that can't come to the USA. A major cost cutting measure. Hopefully no circumstances will arise that will force me to return to the USA during that 2 year period. Basically my wait to request an FM2 is that I am in the process of registering my business in Mexico and need that to be done first.

Also, I noticed someone mentioned bank accounts. I opened my bank account at Banamex with $1,000 pesos (cuenta perfiles), my fm3 rentista, passport, and comprobante de domicilio. That comprobante was my payment receipt for property taxes, which was actually in someone else's name - they told me they just needed _something_ with the address written on it. They did have me fill out a W-9 for any interest gained to be reported to the IRS , but there was no credit check or verification of ssn.

For anyone that does open an account there, be sure that they sign you up for internet banking and phone banking. I wasn't informed that you have to sign up at the branch for these, and took a trip to the USA and was unable to lookup any of my account activity because neither were set up.

*Off Topic:* Why is it that you (mcse) live in mexico then? If I was living in such vile conditions, I would have been out about 100x faster than going through all of that. Unless, of course, its a load of trolling crap just trying to conjure a bunch of rants from the rest of us who live happily and know the truth...


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## Guest

I am going to change my visa this year from an FM3 with permission to work, to an FM2, and Migracion already told me last fall "no problem".



mcse9073 said:


> Within our colony two military check points and they destroyed underneath my dash a 40K dollar 4x4 cummins Big Horn-Just ripped the dash underneath.
> 
> ..........Keep a low profile always in Mexico.


No disrespect intended, but in my part of MX and probably in a lot of the rest of MX, driving around in a big new expensive truck, and then telling people to keep a low profile does not compute. It's no different here than sticking signs that say "Come and get me" to both sides of the truck.

Even to an honest cop (or a local narco), someone's vehicle that looks like a narco driving around just may be a narco. They probably wouldn't have batted an eye if you were driving around in a 2001 Ford F150. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

My experiences with Migracion have been businesslike and non-hostile. No favors asked or given, and no ring around the rosey (other than them changing or adding other documents I had to bring back in). Sorry they put you through the ringer. Good luck.


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## mcse9073

PesoBob said:


> I vouch completely with the story of mcse9073. I have seen this happen more then once.
> I know that Tundragreen has a point by saying that its just one side of the story but Tundragreen forgets one important fact here, THIS IS MEXICO! i keep saying this with capital letters. When you live in Mexico and have to deal with shady lawyers and "federales" , most of these people is corrupt to the very last bone in their body. It will always be your story against them and , well, when a Mexican has a bit of power (over your FM2 or FM3 or whatever legal matter) they tend to squeez the last inch of power they have.


I would not disagree that we went down with little pre-knowledge and they ate us. 
Is my point, "its a crule and dangerous place to be". I just did not have the pre-knowledge to keep out of trouble. My wife was very uneducated and young. She is Mexican but was overly dependent on me and I was depending on her as she was Mexican. She is not educated, very young, and little tiny girl 90lbs. They ate her too. The whole family with PTSD now. In Mexico youy must stay low. If you bring attention and do not have the money to ward off problems as you will be targeted. If you have plenty of money Mexico is a place you can have anything. But its not a fair place with human rights that are enforced by gvt. Their are human right laws there but only enforced through purchase. When I was beaten unconscious by 5 drunks in Zicatela, the Ministerio Investigators came to my house and tried to extort money to investigate the incident. I gave em 5 bucks for gas. They then charged me and my 8 yr old son with attacking the 5 drunks who were on my property beating me unconscious in front of my little kids with them screaming. These guys beating me talking to someone on the phone while they are doing it. I wake up and they are still beating me. Ignorant tourists know nothing! Truck or no truck-low profile or not-these people are criminals that run Mexico. After over 6 yrs in Mexico am convinced living alll over Mexico is a place of pure evil and if you go there you have been warned! My kids are Mx and hate the place. It took their mother, they have wittnessed beatings. They were abused physically in the Mx public schools because of race. They have people walking around there soo poor that my children or anyone can see their private parts just walking along or sitting. Police do nothing. If you like living in a place where there are no morals - get on down there and get with the demons. If you r an imoral person looking for fun-GREAT PLACE Mexico. If your priority is your family/children/etc, very dangerous unsecure place.


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## mcse9073

Pure truth!


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## pappabee

mcse9073 said:


> I would not disagree that we went down with little pre-knowledge and they ate us.
> Is my point, "its a crule and dangerous place to be". I just did not have the pre-knowledge to keep out of trouble. My wife was very uneducated and young. She is Mexican but was overly dependent on me and I was depending on her as she was Mexican. She is not educated, very young, and little tiny girl 90lbs. They ate her too. The whole family with PTSD now. In Mexico youy must stay low. If you bring attention and do not have the money to ward off problems as you will be targeted. If you have plenty of money Mexico is a place you can have anything. But its not a fair place with human rights that are enforced by gvt. Their are human right laws there but only enforced through purchase. When I was beaten unconscious by 5 drunks in Zicatela, the Ministerio Investigators came to my house and tried to extort money to investigate the incident. I gave em 5 bucks for gas. They then charged me and my 8 yr old son with attacking the 5 drunks who were on my property beating me unconscious in front of my little kids with them screaming. These guys beating me talking to someone on the phone while they are doing it. I wake up and they are still beating me. Ignorant tourists know nothing! Truck or no truck-low profile or not-these people are criminals that run Mexico. After over 6 yrs in Mexico am convinced living alll over Mexico is a place of pure evil and if you go there you have been warned! My kids are Mx and hate the place. It took their mother, they have wittnessed beatings. They were abused physically in the Mx public schools because of race. They have people walking around there soo poor that my children or anyone can see their private parts just walking along or sitting. Police do nothing. If you like living in a place where there are no morals - get on down there and get with the demons. If you r an imoral person looking for fun-GREAT PLACE Mexico. If your priority is your family/children/etc, very dangerous unsecure place.


I'm so very sorry that you've had all those problems. My wife and I have been here just over a year and have had no problems at all. We live on a very small fixed income and have very little to spare. Our dealings with the local government and the local merchants has been nothing but wonderful. It may be where you live that is giving you all those problems. We live in Ajijic and possibly because of the large expat population we are treated better. We did have a neighbor that when it was sunny he complained about the brightness and the heat and when it was overcast he was upset because it was so dingy. Don't ask what he said when it was raining. 

I have always found that PMA (positive mental attitude) is a good medicine for most problems.


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## ronb172

Karma comes to mind


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## mcse9073

pappabee said:


> I'm so very sorry that you've had all those problems. My wife and I have been here just over a year and have had no problems at all. We live on a very small fixed income and have very little to spare. Our dealings with the local government and the local merchants has been nothing but wonderful. It may be where you live that is giving you all those problems. We live in Ajijic and possibly because of the large expat population we are treated better. We did have a neighbor that when it was sunny he complained about the brightness and the heat and when it was overcast he was upset because it was so dingy. Don't ask what he said when it was raining.
> 
> I have always found that PMA (positive mental attitude) is a good medicine for most problems.


The expat community where we lived , one Canadian - One American tried to molest my son. 
I have found a few people in Mx very descent individuals. I went to Mx to keep my babys with the momma because she was refused US residency. Have found very much odd balls moving from the USA thinking they are going to get something better by escaping their home land. The type people that would leave the USA and like it, "not my kinda folks". The reason all the expats are leaving the USA, they have created the situation and now don't have the stomach to stay. If the show fits wear it. Stick around and fix your country if you do not like it. Otherwise renounce citizenship. Personal opinion coming from an old guy who has lost everything down there.... Just hasn't happened to you yet yet yet yet yet! Havent been raped down there yet-my wife raped twice before she ran off. The law will do nothing nothing nothing nothing... Flashers exposing themselves to children down there get 72 hrs in jail. Mexico is a horrible place for Christians.... Unless that is you like VooDoo mixed in with the church ...


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## PesoBob

I have always found that PMA (positive mental attitude) is a good medicine for most problems.[/QUOTE]

I agree , positive attitude is important. Only thing is that in Mexico there is a great deal of evil (sorry, i have no other word for it) that its just not easy to handle anymore.
My son (12) went to play soccer in the neighborhood with a group of kids. Of one of these kids the cellphone got stolen/or maybe lost and someone decided to call the police. Ok fair enough right? Well, 4 trucks pull up with in total 16 "police officers" in camouflage clothes and M16 rifles to see about the cellphone that got stolen (????) They lined up all the kids and intimidated the kids by telling them that horrible things would happen to them.
I don't know about the other people on this forum here but i have no need for my kid to go thru these type of situations. And then if you take a look at the type of police officers they have in this country <AND GIVE HEAVY GUNS TO CARRY>, very under educated, bad trained, bad language, typical macho Mexicano type people. 
Also i understand that there are many ExPats that are living very well in Mexico and don't see any problem. They probably stay in there homes and surely do not see any news or newspapers.
Future ExPats be aware in Mexico . Vacation GREAT!! , to live here, THINK TWICE


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## pappabee

First of all your comment about the police arriving in camo and with M-16 is somewhat misleading. Depending on the state the uniform for police is camo and the assigned weapon is the M-16. Now about the four trucks and 16 officers. You did not mention how many kids were involved in the games. In almost any big city in the US, if a radio call went out regarding a problem at soccer field involving 10 or more kids you can be sure that more than one sector car would respond. 

Having been involved with law enforcement in the past the ‘lining up of suspects and reminding them of all the bad things that could happen if they didn’t tell the truth’ doesn’t sound so bad. As far as to their looks goes have you ever seen the program “Dog the Bounty Hunter”? I’d hate to have him come to my door late at night. 

I do agree that many of the Mexican Police are under educated, undertrained, under equipped. That is a problem that the Federal Government is trying to correct but it not only takes time but, since there is such a turnover in the police it’s a real problem. 

_“Also I understand that there are many ExPats that are living very well in Mexico and don't see any problem. They probably stay in there homes and surely do not see any news or newspapers.
Future ExPats be aware in Mexico . Vacation GREAT!! , to live here, THINK TWICE”_

This is an insult to the intelligence of many expats. Again, since I live in Ajijic with its somewhat large expat community I may be more involved with what’s going on in the country but to say that we stay indoors and don’t read the newspapers or watch the news on TV is just insulting.

There is an old book written in the 1940’s called “How to lie with statists”. Your posts remind me of some of the topics covered in it. You take unrelated comments with no backup and then draw a conclusion from them. You would do extremely well as a politician in the US.

Something else you didn’t mention, did they find the missing cell phone?


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## kazslo

pappabee said:


> First of all your comment about the police arriving in camo and with M-16 is somewhat misleading



I'd expand that to say all of their comments are misleading. The commentary from these 2 is so far out from reality its sick. My big question is why - why are you two (pesobob and mcse) so focus on shaming the name of mexico. Its clear that what you are talking about is lies, but why? Why is it so bad that there are so many people living in a place happily?


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## jojo

kazslo said:


> I'd expand that to say all of their comments are misleading. The commentary from these 2 is so far out from reality its sick. My big question is why - why are you two (pesobob and mcse) so focus on shaming the name of mexico. Its clear that what you are talking about is lies, but why? Why is it so bad that there are so many people living in a place happily?


I'll just copy what the mexico moderator said earlier on in this thread



TundraGreen said:


> It seems clear to me, and not very surprising, that people's impression of Mexico is fixed by their own personal experience. If they have good experiences, they think Mexico is a great place; if they have bad experiences, they think it is a terrible place.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, is that when we hear about someone's experience on a forum like this, whether it be good or bad, we are only hearing one side of the story. Without meaning to discount the feelings of some of the unhappy posters on this forum, there are often multiple sides to a story.
> 
> My $0.02 usd worth.


Jo


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## teresita7

What's the cost to apply for an FM2 vs and FM3? And is the process harder - does it take longer? Other than the additional cost, what other down sides might there be for the FM2?
Thanks!


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## TundraGreen

teresita7 said:


> What's the cost to apply for an FM2 vs and FM3? And is the process harder - does it take longer? Other than the additional cost, what other down sides might there be for the FM2?
> Thanks!


First the names have changed, FM-3 is now no-inmigrante, FM-2 is now inmigrante.
An inmigrante costs about twice what a no-inmigrante does annually. The process is the same for the two visas. However, there is a fee of 600 or 700 pesos to change your status from one to the other. Also on an inmigrante visa, there are restrictions on how much time you can spend outside of Mexico. It is pretty generous for someone who lives full time in Mexico, and just takes occasional trips elsewhere. But the limits might cramp the style of a snow bird who spends half or more of each year somewhere else. The advantage of an inmigrante visa is that it leads to "inmigrado" status and freedom from annual renewals. And, finally, all this is about to change as there are new laws being implemented on immigration.


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## maesonna

TundraGreen said:


> An inmigrante costs about twice what a no-inmigrante does annually.


Cost and time allowed outside of Mexico are two questions that often come up when comparing the two visas. The following information is correct at the present time as far as I know, according to current information available from Mexican government websites.

It's worth noting that an _inmigrante_ visa (former FM2) is still less expensive in the long run if you stay in Mexico for the long term. You only have to pay annual fees for 5 years, then you must apply for _inmigrado_ status, and as an _inmigrado_ you don't have to visit Migración for annual renewals any more or pay annual fees.

It's often mentioned that the restrictions on time spent outside Mexico are tighter for an _inmigrante_ visa (former FM2) than a _no-inmigrante_ (former FM3). The limit for _inmigrante_ is 18 months outside Mexico, either continuously or cumulatively, during the 5 years. If you exceed the 18 months, all that happens is that you start counting your 5 years (towards _inmigrado_ status) from zero again.

The difference in concept is that the _inmigrante_ is for people who are immigrating to Mexico to become permanent Mexican residents (whether they later become nationalized or not) and the _no-inmigrante_ is for people “temporarily” living in Mexico (even though “temporary” can be indefinitely long).


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## RVGRINGO

The question and the answers are moot, as the new INM law, signed May 24th, 2011, makes no differentiation between 'no inmigrante' and 'inmigrante,' as soon as the new procedures are in place; probably by November. Even those two terminologies will vanish, in favor of "residente temporal". After four years as a 'residente temporal', one may wish to apply for "residente permanente" status (much like the old 'inmigrado'.), which will not require renewals, fees or further visits to INM. You'll have all rights except the vote.


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## teresita7

RVGRINGO said:


> The question and the answers are moot, as the new INM law, signed May 24th, 2011, makes no differentiation between 'no inmigrante' and 'inmigrante,' as soon as the new procedures are in place; probably by November. Even those two terminologies will vanish, in favor of "residente temporal". After four years as a 'residente temporal', one may wish to apply for "residente permanente" status (much like the old 'inmigrado'.), which will not require renewals, fees or further visits to INM. You'll have all rights except the vote.


Thanks so much for all the good information - especially RVGringo! This group is an excellent resource. Hope I can return the favor someday.


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## JoParsons

I just filled out the online application and they still distinguish between non-immigrant and immigrant. I think I'll just make an appointment and a bus trip into Morelia.


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## RVGRINGO

Yes, the delay continues. The new law is signed, but the new implementation rules are still not published. Our next best guess is March, as the legislature meets in February.


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## pappabee

RVGRINGO said:


> Yes, the delay continues. The new law is signed, but the new implementation rules are still not published. Our next best guess is March, as the legislature meets in February.


Come on RV March of which year???? They might as well wait till May and make it an anniversary present.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Yes, the delay continues. The new law is signed, but the new implementation rules are still not published. Our next best guess is March, as the legislature meets in February.


Does it require legislative action at this point? I thought the legislature had acted and we were waiting on INM to issue procedures to implement the new law.


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## terrybahena

I have been reading that I can import household goods once without duty under either of these two visas. We're not bringing furniture, but bicycles, clothes, books,etc. I believe I read that you must import within 6 months of getting the visa. So although I going for a week in Feb, we may not move within 6 months; right now the date is in a state of flux, just doing the" next right thing" so it may be 6 and may be 7 months. So can I get this visa at the border at the time we move or do I have to already have it? Any feedback is appreciated!


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## RVGRINGO

Nope; you can't get that visa at the border. You will get an FMM as a tourist permit and may bring in your personal items for your stay. Most of us have done so with a car stuffed to the gills.
The FMM is good for up to 180 days and may not be renewed in Mexico. So, as soon as you have an address and all your paperwork unpacked, go to the INM website and start the application process, printing the resulting paperwork and gathering the other papers that are indicated. Then, go to your nearest INM full service office and submit them. They'll check them and give you a receipt form with an online address and password to check the progress. At the appropriate time, go back and get the payment form, pay at a bank, return that form and get your visa.
The FM3 and FM2 are about to merge into one 'residence visa', so don't worry about that difference now.


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## terrybahena

Thank you RVRingo! That info is huge for me! Well we have a little trailer since we have the bikes and the back of our little truck will be for our dog Sam. I think it it wasn't for the rainy season in Playa Ventura- July Aug Sept- we'd be leaving late June cause all our ducks are gettin' in a row so smoothly...boy! this is really happening!! yipee


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## JoParsons

Meanwhile . . . I don't want to take a trip out of the country and then back again. My family might expect me to visit them. So I guess I'll be trekking to Morelia. It is a lovely town.


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## TundraGreen

terrybahena said:


> ... Well we have a little trailer ...


Be aware that the trailer will be included on the permit for your truck and will have to leave with it at some point. There has been lots of discussion of trailers here. Just put "trailer" in the google search box at the top and you will find a number of discussions.


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## terrybahena

thanx! I'll take a look. :}


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## RVGRINGO

Actually, the trailer must leave Mexico any time the towing vehicle leaves Mexico. You may not drive out without the trailer, because you need to have the sticker removed by Aduana and get the formal receipt and the refund of your several hundred dollar deposit. 
So, you might want to consider letting the dog share the truck bed with the bikes, or putting a bike rack on top of the truck. That would allow a trip without the trailer and simplify things. Another option would be a hitch-mounted bike rack.


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## JoParsons

*Visas*

:focus:


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## RVGRINGO

Maybe the moderator could split this thread into two.


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## circle110

The original topic is soon to be null and void anyway since the new regulations (whenever they get around to implementing them) will eliminate the distinction between what used to be FM2 and FM3.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Maybe the moderator could split this thread into two.


There have only been a few posts on trailers here. And I take responsibility for hijacking the thread; my apologies. Lets just stick to inmigrante/no-inmigrante (FM2/FM3) here. There is a separate currently active thread on trailers for those who want to continue that discussion.


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## FHBOY

circle110 said:


> The original topic is soon to be null and void anyway since the new regulations (whenever they get around to implementing them) will eliminate the distinction between what used to be FM2 and FM3.


While the FM2/FM3 designations will disappear, do we know yet how one will qualify for an imigrante/non-imigrante and what the difference will be? Or are we still waiting for that? Do we know if the two different sets {FM_x_} {imigrante} will have similarities and what the difference will be in the real world?


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## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> While the FM2/FM3 designations will disappear, do we know yet how one will qualify for an imigrante/non-imigrante and what the difference will be? Or are we still waiting for that? Do we know if the two different sets {FM_x_} {imigrante} will have similarities and what the difference will be in the real world?


Actually, the FM2/FM3 designations disappeared in 2009 and were replaced with inmigrante/no-inmgrante designations. In May 2011, congress passed a law which makes them obsolete as well. That law has yet to be implemented. There was a lot of discussion of this topic in the thread, http://www.expatforum.com/expats/mexico-expat-forum-expats-living-mexico/88092-permanent-resident-5.html, for those who would like more information.


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## JoParsons

exactly . . .


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