# CA8454 Form help.



## Brewster01

Hi all,
are you a UK expat who has posted/seconded themselves to an EEC country and have successfully extended their UK insurance and healthcare privileges to cover their time in Europe?

If so, then you must have filled in a CA8454 form and successfully applied for an A1 and S1 form (E106) which the HMRC accepted.

This is what I'm trying to do and perhaps you can help? I am my own employer (not self employed, by the UK definition) and my plan is to second/post myself abroad for the two years permitted by the E106, to Germany (though the country isn't relevant to my questions other than that it's an EEC country)

The CA8454, like all HMRC forms, is obtusely and ambiguously worded. But I know I only really have one shot at submitting it. I'm not looking to lie on the form, but there's a particular version of the truth it's asking me for and I think only experience can help me. I've read a lot of other threads about people having their S1 applications turned down for contradictory reasons or Newcastle issuing conflicting advice.

So the first question, in the broadest sense is _what are they looking for?_ One site tells me: "you have to prove that the activities you intend to pursue abroad are "similar" to those you pursued in your home country" just as others have suggested that the more you show your work is particular to the country, the less likely they are to extend it? That seems very counter-intuitive to me? But clearly how I describe the work counts for everything.

Next: Under 'UK worker abroad' the form asks
*What date did you move to your current country of residence?*

This presumably is asking about the date I moved abroad, but I didn't leave yet, because I want my healthcare extended and I'm supposed to submit the S1 to German authorities when I arrive, and I'm told application could be 2 to 3 months. But the form _won't allow me_ to input a future date?
Am I supposed to state the UK as my present residence and input my birth date? Or say I moved to Germany yesterday (which I didn't). _Or_ fill it in after I arrive and then wait for 3 months there after it's already needed and maybe not even receive it? It's a Catch 22.

*Do you spend time in more than one country? Yes/No*

Again, by any real measure this isn't a yes/no question. But clearly there is a 'correct' answer by HMRC standards. What are they really asking me for there? If I submit 'yes' there is space for a *brief description of the time spent in each country*. Do I describe the proposed future secondment therein? The form just doesn't lend itself to describing near-future changes in circumstance. Which is surely all it's there for?

*In which countries do you carry your work out?*

Again, there's an HMRC-friendly answer to this and I don't know what it is.

I could describe my secondment as something intrisically German that I definitely need to be in Germany for, and maybe that's what they want to hear? That would make sense from a philanthropic standpoint and all that 'supporting business' hooha that the Government pretend to like. But I get the felling I'm meant to describe it as only perfunctorally German and really emphasise how much nothing will be changing?

Advice from anyone has played this game and won will be gratefully received.


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## Bevdeforges

Afraid I don't know anything about this particular form, but a couple of caveats in any event.

It may depend on whether or not you are actually moving to Germany (i.e. indefinitely) or seconding yourself to Germany for a limited period of time. If you have no intention to return I suspect what they want you to do is to set up your business in Germany and pay into the German social insurances system. (Probably what the Germans would prefer, too.)

But let's see if we can flag down someone with some experience with this form and see what they can suggest.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Brewster01

Thanks for the reply. In terms of the posting/secondment itself I believe I understand correctly what my options are and am planning accordingly. The question here is of how to get the HMRC to cooperate.

The form asks for three dates under the 'worker abroad' section. The date you moved to your 'current' residence, the date you want the cover to start from and the date you plan to return.

The second and third of these dates make sense and pose no difficulty. I welcome the option to distinguish the date of arrival from the date the cover begins. But within or without that distinction it _makes no sense_ that I can only submit a past-tense date as my date of residency change when I'm submitting for something I am supposed to have formalised from the outset.

I know that under conditions of secondment that I should be able to continue paying tax and NI to the UK under Uk employment and thus receive extension of NHS coverage. I know that without it I am obligated to enroll in the German health system and I know how much for. And I know that whether the cover is extended is up to HMRC/NHS and is contingent on whether I successfully find the magic formula to abide by HMRC 'logic' and fill in this nonsense of a form.

"Why, a child of six could understand this. Somebody bring me a child of six, I can't make head nor tail of this thing"


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## Bevdeforges

Just be careful - if you get an S1 you will be able to enroll in the German system like any other German resident and the UK will pay the German social charges to allow you to be part of that system. It's not an extension of the NHS by any means. Many (if not most) of the European health systems require a certain level of payment toward your costs. (I'm most familiar with the French system, obviously, which only pays about 70% of care costs.) 

Let me try to scare up someone who knows the situation a bit better for Germany.
Cheers,
Bev


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## EuroTrash

I successfully applied for a workers S1 when I moved to France. Unfortunately this is going back nearly 10 years and I can't remember what I wrote and I don't have a copy of my application, but I do remember thinking, as you are saying, that it's not a very well thought out form. My big advantage was that it was a paper form so it couldn't refuse to accept any dates and comments I chose to write on it!

I was self-employed. I do remember stressing that my plan to spend time abroad was a toe in the water exercise (so that it didn't look like a permanent move and a complete break with the UK). I probably said that I would be continuing with the same activities that I'd been carrying out in the UK for years, but doing them in France, and looking to pursue opportunities to diversify into new areas alongside the existing. The implication was I wanted to see how it went for a year, and if it worked out I would stay and if it didn't I wouldn't. Which was more or less the truth, although I strongly suspected I would make it a permanent move.

I think basically they want to get a feeling for whether they are looking at a genuinely UK-based business that's planning on carrying out a short tem project abroad, in which case it would clearly be a nonsense for them to have to swap social security systems now and swap back again next year, or whether from now on you're going to be a cross-border business on an ongoing basis; and in that case they need to establish where the bulk of your activity is going to be carried out, and they'll keep asking you the same questions every year to make sure that the answer hasn't changed - and maybe that's why the form is worded as it is. Or alternatively, whether they're looking at a business that's moving abroad but doesn't want to cut the apron strings because it wants the UK to keep looking after it, cake and eat it kind of syndrome. Being honest there was a touch of the cake and eat it syndrome in my case and I was very surprised to get an S1. 
(And the funny thing is that I never actually used it because I very quickly knew that I wasn't going to be going back to the UK, and I decided it would be better to join the French system straight away. So I ignored the S1, which probably wasn't the right thing to do because at intervals the blinking thing still crops up in correspondence with HMRC and DWP - "we note that in 2009 you were issued with...' FFS.)

Why not ring them up and try to talk to a human being and ask what they expect you to put? I'm sure you won't be the first to ask those exact same questions. I think I may have done.


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## EuroTrash

Brewster01 said:


> I know that under conditions of secondment that I should be able to continue paying tax and NI to the UK


I don't think you can assume that. Tax and social security contributions are two separate issues. If you spend the whole year in a country other than the UK, you would almost certainly be tax resident in that other country (you need to check Germany's criteria for fiscal residence) and would therefore be taxable there for that year. The UK can't override the tax laws of another country and make you exempt from paying tax there.
The DTA should ensure you don't ultimately pay tax twice on the same income, but if you are abroad for an entire tax year it might be a case of paying tax in the UK because it has to be deducted PAYG, then filling in a tax return and paying tax in your host country because that is the law, then once you have proof that you've paid tax in the host country, ie you've received your tax statement or whatever they issue in Germany, you can reclaim your tax back from HMRC. I think you'll find that's how the tax works.


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## ccm47

The CA8454 was devised by the Contributions Agency,(hence CA) but part of DWP, which was taken over by the HM Taxes in the ealy 2000s. Following that success HMT then took over Customs and Excise to become HMRC.I worked for CA as a manager but loathed many aspects of the Revenue, so moved on. I did successfully complete this form and got my S1, but for retirement.

My personal interpretation of the questions.
1. When did you enter the country? Your date of birth if you have lived in the UK all your life. Else enter when you moved there. 
2.Spending time in more than one country? You might be within a short drive of another country , or even a flight, and decide to live in one and work in the other. Also looking to clarify where you will spend the majority of your time i.e.183 days a year and therefore tax residence.
3. Which country will you work in? Just clarifies intentions. 
As i see it the intention of the form is to get as much information in one hit as possible, thereby saving you filling in yet more forms. Also to give you correct information e.g. if you enter the German system you may need to apply separately for an EHIC E in order to be able to access holiday healthcare in another EU country.
Hope that helps.


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## Brewster01

Hi all, thanks for the responses, which contain some useful context and advice.

As it goes I called the HMRC who pleasantly surprised me. The guy preempted my questions and second guessed my situation, which I took as a sign that the advice he was giving me was correct (I have read reports of a lot of contradictory advice being issued around this question). He directed me to what I intuited I need to begin with, but which searches kept advising me away from, that is; the forms an _employer_ needs to submit for an S1.

So for now I've shelved the CA8454 and have submitted a CA3821 and a CA3822 as advised, and will see where they advise me toward next.

To be clear, I'm aware of my obligations to pay tax on my (UK) income to German authorities. The point of the forms in this instance is to affirm my position as seconded by my British employer, which, under certain conditions, exempts me from the social security obligations on that income (ie German health insurance) for a period of two years. Without that affirmation I would be considered 'self employed' under German law (I'm 'employed' under UK law) and would have to make those contributions, ie sign up for German national insurance. That coverage is still only within the remit of the EHIC Card, I'm sure. But I'll try not to walk under a bus for two years.


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