# Neighbour wants to dig up our patio



## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Our next door neighbour is having problems with their drains. The house is only used about 6 weeks a year as a holiday rental. I suspect the problems have been caused by renters putting things they shouldn't down the toilet.

The managing agent called in a company that checks and clears drains and they say the problem is under our patio.

They want to dig up part of our patio (which is about 6 inch thick concrete topped with tiles) to investigate the blockage.

Does anyone have any idea what the legal situation is here. Can we be forced to allow them to do this. We have said we will not agree to it without a court order and to get that they will need to prove that the problem is on our land.


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

A s long as the patio is returned to its original state I cannot see a problem and certainly not worth having a heart attack over, enjoy your life!!


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

DunWorkin said:


> Our next door neighbour is having problems with their drains. The house is only used about 6 weeks a year as a holiday rental. I suspect the problems have been caused by renters putting things they shouldn't down the toilet.
> 
> The managing agent called in a company that checks and clears drains and they say the problem is under our patio.
> 
> ...


Sorry you've probably thought of all this but just in case:

Presumably you are down hill from them and thus it is logical any blockage is with you?

Are there further houses beyond your neighbours up pipe as it were?

Is there no inspection cover anywhere? Even some way away it should be easy to determine where the blockage is. Camera inspection is even available.

We had an incident recently in a UK ancient village where the blockage was caused by smaller than required 4 inch pipes having a 90 degree turn. The problem impacted 4 houses. But it was better for all that it got sorted.

Trying to think positive if it is dug up could they install an inspection cover and or even build a feature over it (because in my experience it never gets put back as it was sadly)? 

Sorry not a lot of help but :fingerscrossed:


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Trubrit, comments like yours definitely do not help. I don't think they would be able to make the patio exactly as it is now. From what they are saying they would need to take up several tiles and dig up the very thick concrete base. The chances of getting it to look the same afterwards seem slim.

Our neighbour's house is the last in a line of 13 houses. We are the second in the line. I wouldn't say we are downhill from them. There is no inspection cover anywhere that I can see. 

I really want to know if anyone has any idea of the legal situation.


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## tonymar (Jan 29, 2015)

I guess if the drain needs to be repaired and jetting cannot resolve the problem , then the work must be done , lets face it if it were your or mine drain we would want it fixed !

Just a thought could they not dig a hole on their side near your boundary for rodding ?

Much worst things can happen in life !

Hope it dosnt cause you to much upset stay positive. 

Tony


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

DunWorkin said:


> I really want to know if anyone has any idea of the legal situation.


Not sure I see a legal situation. I guess if you refuse to co-operate they could go to court to get access. And if you give access and they do not return your property as before, or offer compensation, you could sue. Both easily resolved by visiting a lawyer.

But I'd make my first port of call the townhall. They can be a helpful bunch. Then the water drainage people to check where liability lies.

Certainly I'd want to confirm the direction of flow.

And to know if people further down are having any problems.

I'd also check house insurance just in case it might be helpful.

:fingerscrossed:


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

I would be surprised if they can make you agree to work on your property without a long winded legal process that would take a long time. Maybe digging up your patio is the easy option and now you have said no they will go to plan B which might mean more hassle, aggro and money for them but that is your prerogative. 

Having said all that, are you sure it isn't worth letting them do it? Having a problem with drainage is horrible for them and potentially for you if there is any backing up. The sooner these types of problems get sorted the better for everyone. Plus there is the goodwill side of things, which with neighbours is always an important thing. Do unto others and all that. You can take lots of photos before they start and insist that it gets put back exactly as you want it. Maybe even insist they pay for a building professional to act on your behalf if you aren't confident handling it yourself, somebody who can make sure the work is carried out professionally to an agreed specification that will also allow for any remedial work to the drainage system that will mean the problem won't reoccur.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

They have dug a deep hole on their side of our boundary fence to expose the drain. It was a long way down with no way of access other than digging.

It was after digging this hole that they say they need access our side. I don't understand why they can't clear the blockage from their side without ruining our patio.

I want them to prove it is necessary rather than just they think the problem is on our property.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

We are not talking about a small, plain patio here. We had it built 8 years ago and it cost us €7,000 so you can image we do not want it spoiled if it can be avoided.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

You seem very nervous about your patio being dug up.

Are all your friends/ relatives accounted for...................


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I agree with Dunworkin, Trubrits comments were not helpful.It will be a huge disruption and inconvenience.
I would get an agreement drawn up whereby the neighbours agreed to pay for solicitor's fees and all work done, along with the assurance that the patio was returned to normal, whatever the expense.
To those who seem to think it is a minor nuisance, think how you would feel in the OP's position


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

We are nervous because we don't want our lovely patio spoiled. It is our only outside space so it is really more of a paved garden than a patio.

We have decided we will ask them to provide a written report from a qualified engineer to say why they believe the problem is on our property and why it cannot be resolved any other way. at the moment the men who were working on it are saying things like 'probably and 'must be' and 'dig up to investigate'. To me that is not good enough reason.

New renters have arrived today so it can't be that bad if they are allowing people to stay there.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

extranjero said:


> I agree with Dunworkin, Trubrits comments were not helpful.It will be a huge disruption and inconvenience.
> I would get an agreement drawn up whereby the neighbours agreed to pay for solicitor's fees and all work done, along with the assurance that the patio was returned to normal, whatever the expense.
> To those who seem to think it is a minor nuisance, think how you would feel in the OP's position


I would feel as though the neighbour whose drainage is not working, and who has already gone to the trouble and expense involved in trying to solve the problem (the big hole they dug) is very unfortunate indeed and needs all the help they can get. Presumably their sinks, toilets, showers and bath, and maybe even aircon might not be usable at any time. Not a nice situation to be in.

I would want to be sure that the work was necessary (but if they've dug a big hole and can't resolve the issue, then I'd feel as though it is), and would want to be sure that the action they're proposing stands a good chance of fixing the problem. Once that was out of the way, I'd let them do it. If the patio cost 7000 maybe I would ask for a sizeable sum to be put in escrow to be called upon in the event of a dispute, but I'd check whether that option stands up legally.

I would then go to a lawyer because even if a bunch of internet strangers told me what I wanted to hear, I wouldn't believe it.

And finally, I would reflect on the fact I am 2nd in the line of 13, and one day I might need the cooperation of the people who are first in the line of 13.

HTH.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

A few questions:


Are your patio, house and drainage *fully* legal and in accordance with the plans held by the ayuntamiento?
As far as you know, are the houses next door (both of them, especially the one that has the problem, fully legal including the provision of drainage?
As far as you know, are the rest of the houses in the line also built in accordance with the licences?
Are you having any drainage problems? 
Do you know where your connection to common drain is?
Is the house on the other side (the one that doesn't want to dig up your patio) having any drainage problems?
If 1) is OK, then involve the Ayuntamiento. At some point, every house's drainage system becomes connected to the Ayuntamiento's main drain and upstream of that point is usually all or partly the responsibility of the householder, downstream is the authority's problem.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I do sympathise with you Dunworkin and fully understand that you want to be sure that this is what needs to be done and have guarantees that all be will returned to its original state.
As well as the ayuntamiento, do nsurance companies need to be called in?
Another thing you need to find out is that if the patio is dug up and the fault is found to be there, who's paying and how long would it possibly take?
It seems like you'll need to get a gestor or administrador involved. Do you have a "comunidad"?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> We are nervous because we don't want our lovely patio spoiled. It is our only outside space so it is really more of a paved garden than a patio.
> 
> We have decided we will ask them to provide a written report from a qualified engineer to say why they believe the problem is on our property and why it cannot be resolved any other way. at the moment the men who were working on it are saying things like 'probably and 'must be' and 'dig up to investigate'. To me that is not good enough reason.
> 
> New renters have arrived today so it can't be that bad if they are allowing people to stay there.


With the right kit there is no need to enter your place & I would tell them to contact a good company who can inspect/clear/report/show video of any issue that they think may be under your patio.

BTW I used to operate on of these.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
Do your drains also connect to the same pipe that runs under your patio - or does the specific pipe only serve the outfall from their property?
You don't want your drains blocking if it connects to the same pipe.
You don't want them blaming the weight of your patio or tree roots for a fault in the pipe under your property.
Based on the above - the digging of the patio is almost the least of your worries.
Firstly you need to establish obligations and responsibilities for any blockage of a neighbours drain that is running under your property.
This is because you might find that it becomes your responsibilities and costs to fix it!
Best of luck
Steve


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

VFR said:


> With the right kit there is no need to enter your place & I would tell them to contact a good company who can inspect/clear/report/show video of any issue that they think may be under your patio.
> 
> BTW I used to operate on of these.


Before we left the UK we had a serious water leak in our kitchen, the floor of which was paved with fancy tiles.
The company that came to do the repair dug a small hole in the garage adjacent to the kitchen where the pipes entered and put a device with some sort of camera attached to discover exactly where blockage which caused the problem was. Only a couple of tiles had to be carefully removed in the kitchen and a small hole dug. There wasn't much mess and disruption.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> Do your drains also connect to the same pipe that runs under your patio - or does the specific pipe only serve the outfall from their property?
> You don't want your drains blocking if it connects to the same pipe.
> You don't want them blaming the weight of your patio or tree roots for a fault in the pipe under your property.
> ...


In addition, establishing the flow is important. If the problem ones are downstream from you, then you can't be the problem, it is somebody farther on.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

DunWorkin said:


> We are nervous because we don't want our lovely patio spoiled. It is our only outside space so it is really more of a paved garden than a patio.
> 
> We have decided we will ask them to provide a written report from a qualified engineer to say why they believe the problem is on our property and why it cannot be resolved any other way. at the moment the men who were working on it are saying things like 'probably and 'must be' and 'dig up to investigate'. To me that is not good enough reason.
> 
> New renters have arrived today so it can't be that bad if they are allowing people to stay there.


Hi - I'm sorry that you're faced with this awful problem! Have your neighbours told you who'd be doing the digging- up and repairing..? If I had spent £7000 on a concreted and tiled patio, I would certainly refuse to allow my neighbours to undertake any such speculative work, as proposed, until I'd sought advice - both from the Ayto. and a gestor or lawyer! The neighbours could arrange for a 'bodge' job to be done- leaving your patio badly repaired, if at all. 

As Baldilocks has advised - you need to check your, and their, insurance cover - who would be responsible, should the subsequent repairs not be to your satisfaction?

I would definitely refuse to be pressured into agreeing to anything, without ensuring that I'd be safeguarded, if and when the 'digging- up' had been proven necessary!

Good luck with it all!
GC.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

DunWorkin came on here looking for advice and when he received it he started complaining about the one who gave it. When you use fora such as this, you must expect peoples opinions however unfavourable.

The situation as I can see from evidence here:- (a) Waste pipe blocked between neighbour and main drain. Nobody knows where the blockage is. (b) Possibility that blockage is under expensive patio.

I had the same problem in ROI and plumber visited and put a small motorised video gadget into waste pipe and almost instantly the place where blockage occurred was discovered. My patio was dug up and blockage (disintegrated clay pipe) put right. It was annoying that my patio had to be dug up, but in the interest of good neighbourly conduct I agreed with the "dig" and would expect the same if it occurred with my neighbour.

I don't know how wide the waste pipes are in this instant. I don't know if a mobile camera can be inserted. I don't know what kind of rodding occurred either. One way or another the problem will have to be resolved (sorry for stating the obvious). 

OK your patio will never be restored to its original beauty, but if necessary your patio will have to be dug up. You can start talking insurance, the local authorities, the hassle, the inconvenience, the smell, etc, but what price do you put on being a good neighbour?


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Some questions you need to ask. Which way does the water flow? from him to you or you to him. Why did they 'dig a big hole'? Did they suspect a pipe was collapsed in which case they would have replaced it, did they want to locate where the pipe was , have they actually inspected the interior of the pipe and rodded it from that point? Depending on the responses to these questions would enable you to establish the comopetency of the operatives. If the pipe is a deep as you say the likelihood is that it is on the outfall side of the houses (Spanish workmen are not known for doing more than they have to) The Town hall may have plans but this sort of thing is usually left to the Architect. Good place to start enquiries though..


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## smitty5668 (Feb 25, 2015)

question? are the pipes clay or pastic. yes you can put down a mini-cam to have a look. maximum you can go is 22meters from insetion.
the question of the flow,and where connections are made is very impotant. i would suggest that you insist ona very reputable company to do this equivalent to rentokill in the uk.
lastly contact both the town hall and your insurance company and maybe even a solicitor.

guess what i used to be in a previous life a civil engineer specializing in drainage and sewerage.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

How goes the saga of the drain versus the patio? We have had no updates since the last post 3rd August.


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