# Do you rent or buy a home?



## surfrider

I am thinking of purchasing a home in the Ajijic area. I am a retired Realtor and do know my stuff so I have no questions about purchasing and property. 

At the current time we are renting a really nice property in San Antonio that is only 550.00 usd and then the gardener and maid and expenses. I was renting a lovely place in San Cristobal de Las Casas in Chapas for 750.00 and that included everything. So actually the Chapas property turned out to be a little 
cheaper. (and colder temp.). 

However, a bunch of you own homes in Mexico and I am wondering if you would put your money again into property or not?

Also I am wondering how many actually live full time in just one location and live just on your retirement?

I have valued the forums input in the past and I thank you all for your past advise. I do not wish to intrude into your personal lives but I am - if you are willing to share - interested in your thoughts about this. :confused2:


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## conklinwh

We rented for about 4 years in San Miguel before we decided that we wanted our own place.
We wanted to be away a little with a fair amount of land so difficult to rent.
We ended up building. The base 2BR/2BA house ran just about $50US/sq.ft. By the time we added walls/fencing, brought in water & electricity, etc. it was really more like $75USD/sq.ft. The interesting thing is that once you have a house, the annual carrying costs are very low.
If I had spent enough time in Mexico to make informed decision and I had the cash available (no mortgage), I would probably build or buy.
Yes, we live full time in Mexico, minus annual friends/family holiday tour and only income is retirement-pension, SS, 401K's.


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## TundraGreen

I came to Guadalajara as a Peace Corps volunteer and lived in a rented apt for two years. After about one year, I knew I wanted to stay in Mexico. I was offered a job in Mexico City but it never came to fruition. I decided the world was telling me to stay in Gdl. So when the Peace Corps term ended I bought a house in the same neighborhood where I had been renting, not far from the center of Gdl. Although I have permission on my visa to work, I don't. My only income is a pension from the US. I live full-time in Mexico but travel a bit, so I am typically away for a week or two or three several times a year. I have been very happy with my choice: of Mexico, of Guadalajara, of the neighborhood I am in, and of the house I ended up with. It has been a learning experience dealing with the usual trials of home ownership. I like to do a lot of the work myself, and have become well known at the neighborhood plumbing, hardware and electrical stores. I am also developing a network of workmen that I trust. But these are all things that I enjoy doing and doing them in Spanish is more challenging and hence more fun.


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## RVGRINGO

We came to Ajijic and bought, 2 blocks from the plaza. Sold profitably a few years later.
Moved to Chapala (5 miles) and bought larger property, also in centro, in 2004. We've renovated & are still here in our dotage. 
Dotage & declining resources & inflation become a problem, eventually, so much of your decision will depend upon your age and resources. We wouldn't do anything differently, but this very large property is now definitely our home & we're probably here forever. However, age and infirmity say, "downsize!" The pets and inertia say, "Stay put".
We have the security of a paid for home with low taxes and upkeep, but we do need the gardener and weekly maid. We're comfortable, but live on minimal SS and one tiny pension, juggling figures for INM and hoping to become 'permanente' to avoid that in the future. Inflation of their requirements could force us out if we don't do that, as others have recognized. We should have done that, or naturalization, many years ago, but they keep changing the rules and frustrating our plans.
So there; that didn't help at all, did it?


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> We came to Ajijic and bought, 2 blocks from the plaza. Sold profitably a few years later....So there; that didn't help at all, did it?


Well, not as much as it could, but we love you anyway.

I've read all the rent vs. own stuff here and in other places. We were going to buy, found the perfect house in Ajijic, but so many have convinced us to rent for a few years. If you got cash and can buy mortgage free - then yeah, of course a owned home will be better for your cash flow, but how do you know if the house you buy is the place you want to live and then what if it proves not? The other thing is that home ownership in Mexico does not come with the perks of the USA - tax deductions for interest and taxes - as someone pointed out, rather I keep my investments intact, earning interest, than take it out to buy a potential liability (based on the current housing market).

I have been a home owner most of my 40 years of marriage, and it will be a change to rent - but no argument I have heard has re-changed my mind - not at least for the first couple of years anyway.


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## m55vette

We bought, knowing our son loves the area and he and his sister will always have a Mexico retreat. If we didn't have children to pass the home on to we may have been happy long term renting. But we know we always have a place of our own by buying.


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## RVGRINGO

Perks of the US system of home ownership? Ha! There won't be any interest in Mexico because you'll pay cash for the house. Taxes? Almost nil. So, none of that applies here.
If the house isn't "the place you want to live....", don't rent it OR buy it. Obvious, no?
Now, our investments are long gone; evaporated mostly, the remainder spent in living these 14 years since retirement (remember inflation). The house is still here, solid, real, ours, secure. If we both drop dead, the maid can have it. We won't need it any more.


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## sparks

I rented for five years but bought two adjoining lots after two ... and slowly started building. Finally moved in last October. Exhausted much of my savings which wasn't much but now have no rent and yearly expenses are minimal. A number of projects to go but will be piece-meal. And I have a garden that I can do anything I want with .... love a tropical garden !!

Nobody in my family has an interest in Mexico so they might not even bother to claim it and sell it after I'm gone. Oh well, I'm happy


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## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> Perks of the US system of home ownership? Ha! There won't be any interest in Mexico because you'll pay cash for the house. Taxes? Almost nil. So, none of that applies here.
> If the house isn't "the place you want to live....", don't rent it OR buy it. Obvious, no?
> Now, our investments are long gone; evaporated mostly, the remainder spent in living these 14 years since retirement (remember inflation). The house is still here, solid, real, ours, secure. If we both drop dead, the maid can have it. We won't need it any more.


RVGringo,

I could give you a "like" too for your post but there is one part I do not like.

It is the fact that your investments are long gone.

When our older generation that worked so hard, contributed highly to the system, paid taxes, pension contributions, etc. have to spend all their investments during their retirement years simply to live a good, simple life (and that in a country that is very inexpensive to live in) and yet not have it last to life's end then I feel something is wrong with the system. 

Some of those investments should last to life's end so that they can be passed on (perhaps in your case that is not important) to offspring etc. as was common in past generations or at least to give you additional security for whatever might happen throughout rest of a person's life. 

Now, according to numerous posts on this site it is almost impossible to retire comfortably in Canada or the US unless one has sizeable investments. Without those they are faced with a retirement that will lack quality and security, if they remain in their home country. How sad!

The only good news is that it forces many to look to places like Mexico to retire and hopefully find happiness in the more relaxed and simpler lifestyle that will not rob them of them of the little extras that make life more pleasant.

All the best to you RVGriingo as you keep marching along! You are a trooper!

And all the best to others on this forum that are planning and working towards making the move that will enable you to live a more pleasant life.


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## RVGRINGO

Sparks and I share a very similar attitude. What little family we have, have never visited or shown any interest; even though they could use the money, but they won't even bother to come down. So ........ they get 'nada'.


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## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> Sparks and I share a very similar attitude. What little family we have, have never visited or shown any interest; even though they could use the money, but they won't even bother to come down. So ........ they get 'nada'.


In a situation like yours I totally agree as my will is similar for associated reasons.


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## FHBOY

Maybe it is just because I am a young 62 that I haven't developed the cynical attitude towards my family I have seen here. Look, I don't know your situation and I am not being judgmental - we all have our reasons and if they make sense to us, that is all that matters. But, like my grandfather and my father, I do want to leave a legacy of some sort to my sons. With the economy the way it is, that may be a challenge. And another maybe: maybe when we move there they too won't visit and I'll change my mind, But for now, I feel very lucky that our family relationship is as tight as it is.

:focus:

So, I'm getting a very mixed message here - I agree that when you own something it is a good thing, unless it loses value. And to partially or totally liquidate an investment in a house is still a bit too risky to me. I do not want to end up worrying in my last years that I may not have the cash flow to live. So I will rent...

As to RV's comment (to which I am sorry I do take umbridge): _"If the house isn't "the place you want to live....", don't rent it OR buy it. Obvious, no?"_ sounded most condescending and I'm sure that is not what he meant to convey.

I am looking forward to meeting RV face-to-face in a couple of weeks. And like I have said before, I am glad that we can be civil even in this type of discourse.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Sparks and I share a very similar attitude. What little family we have, have never visited or shown any interest; even though they could use the money, but they won't even bother to come down. So ........ they get 'nada'.


Every family is different and people have different reasons for what they do. I have two kids. In the five years I have lived in Mexico, my daughter has been here twice for weeks at a time. My son came for three days for the first time a few months ago. But I don't hold it against him, nor take it personally. It is just a difference between the two kids. One likes to travel and does so. The other doesn't travel anywhere very much and feels impediments in his life that prevent him from traveling much. I feel close to both of them even though my interaction with the two of them is very different. I have a Mexican will that leaves the house equally to both of them, but with the distance and lack of spanish, it is not obvious to me that either will go to the trouble of selling it. Maybe, with inertia it will just be abandoned. There seem to be a few of those around. There is a large house a couple of doors down from me that appears abandoned. There is no electrical supply and no one ever goes in or out, although advertisements taped to the door do disappear. I don't know what goes on with it. I should ask my neighbors I guess.


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## mickisue1

I don't know the situations that any of you came from, or are coming from.

But for me, the opportunity to buy a home for under $150K, that will cost less than 10% of what it costs to maintain my current home--power, water, property taxes, insurance, etc, and know that it's there for my kids in the future is huge.

Who knows what the future will bring for rental costs? For the value of property? I remember, 12 years ago when we were building our current home, a financial advisor telling us that it's good to have a mortgage when your income is earned, and good not have one, when it's from investments or pensions/SS. 

With a few modifications--I'd not be tempted, ever, to mortgage greater than 80% of the value of a home in the US, with the wide swings we've seen in value--I think that's still good advice.

When we move, we'll probably rent for a bit. But the goal will be to own a home. Nothing fancy, probably NOT in a ****** enclave, but on the economy, so we can feel as though we really do live in a foreign country. With, of course, at least two extra bedrooms. 

Most of the time, they'll be utterly useless. When the kids, and eventual grandkids, come to visit, they'll be priceless.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Maybe it is just because I am a young 62 that I haven't developed the cynical attitude towards my family I have seen here. Look, I don't know your situation and I am not being judgmental - we all have our reasons and if they make sense to us, that is all that matters. But, like my grandfather and my father, I do want to leave a legacy of some sort to my sons. With the economy the way it is, that may be a challenge. And another maybe: maybe when we move there they too won't visit and I'll change my mind, But for now, I feel very lucky that our family relationship is as tight as it is.
> 
> :focus:
> 
> So, I'm getting a very mixed message here - I agree that when you own something it is a good thing, unless it loses value. And to partially or totally liquidate an investment in a house is still a bit too risky to me. I do not want to end up worrying in my last years that I may not have the cash flow to live. So I will rent...
> 
> As to RV's comment (to which I am sorry I do take umbridge): _"If the house isn't "the place you want to live....", don't rent it OR buy it. Obvious, no?"_ sounded most condescending and I'm sure that is not what he meant to convey.
> 
> I am looking forward to meeting RV face-to-face in a couple of weeks. And like I have said before, I am glad that we can be civil even in this type of discourse.


As you will see from a careful reading of my post I too believe that there should be an inheritance to be able to pass along. My comment is that with the current scenarios in some countries there will be little to pass along, EXCEPT if the person has sizeable assets.

Too many today, if they stayed in the US or Canada, would not have a "pot to pee in" to leave to their descendants. So they are "forced" to consider relocating to somewhere else like Mexico. Staying in their home country is not a viable option if they want to have any meaningful retirement, let alone an inheritance.

I don't think Sparks and RVGringo are being cynical. That just happens to be their situation and circumstances apparently lead them to make certain decisions. I agree with that. It is their choice and I do not find any fault with it.

As for myself my current decision is to leave my inheritance to relatives (have no children). I simply will not leave anything to some because of the lack of closeness and attitude problems. Those that have manifest interest and maintained family closeness will benefit. Simple and straight forward.

On a different matter I too agree that there is a big difference between buying and renting. My observations to date indicate that after buying in Ajijic or adjacent areas, if you find that you made a mistake and don't want to live there, you will find that it takes considerable time to unload the property unless you want to discount it considerably. Some people have their homes for sale for a LONG time.

If you rent and make a mistake it is much easier to correct the mistake. You simply move to another place. You can keep that up until you find the area that is right and then look for a home to buy in that area. It is true that you might have to live out the remainder of the rental lease term. Big deal. You lose nothing moneywise! You just have to put up with the situation for additional months until the lease expires. In the worst case scenario you could pay out the lease term and walk away completely free. That cost wouldn't even come close to possible losses in owning a home that you want to dispose of. It would probably be less than the sales commission on a house.

So unless we have runaway inflation - rent first before buying. That is rule #1 according to the majority of expats. Rule #2 - Don't get carried away by emotion and forget Rule #1.


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## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> As you will see from a careful reading of my post I too believe that there should be an inheritance to be able to pass along. ...So unless we have runaway inflation - rent first before buying. That is rule #1 according to the majority of expats. Rule #2 - Don't get carried away by emotion and forget Rule #1.


With your first point we are in full agreement. The amount of cash flow I can expect for the next 25 years would not be enough and eventually anything that has been saved up "for the future" (the corpus) would be gone if we stay in the USA, assuming there was some place in the USA we wanted to retire to (and there isn't any place we have found for that). 

As to the buy/rent thing - I'll stick with our decision at this point. It has nothing to do with our resolve to retire in Mexico and to live in Lakeside, that has already been decided, it is just a question of where. I have a house to sell here in the US, I know it is an uphill battle to get what I want/need out of it, so I don't want to put us in a similar situation in Mexico. That could change, but meanwhile why risk it?

You know, you can choose your friends, you can't choose your family and all of them are different. Do I know if my sons and their wives and kids will visit us a lot in Mexico? Of course not - like us they have lives of their own. Fortunately with the internet, careful budgeting and the like, I do not expect to lose touch - and affection. When my son gets married later this year, we expect to be back in the USA for their first kid in about two years - now if we lived in Tuscon, or LA or moved to (God forbid) God's Waiting Room: Florida, we'd have to worry more about having the money to make the flights, hotels, etc. With a lower COL in Mexico, that seems to be a more attainable goal by living simply.

Now...what was this thread all about again? Oh yeah, own or rent? Good night all.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> With your first point we are in full agreement. The amount of cash flow I can expect for the next 25 years would not be enough and eventually anything that has been saved up "for the future" (the corpus) would be gone if we stay in the USA, assuming there was some place in the USA we wanted to retire to (and there isn't any place we have found for that).


My spreadsheets show me the same thing for Canada over a 25 year period. If inflation increases agressively, which I feel it will, or there are large unforseen occurrences (which according to Murphy's law - will happen) my resources will be depleted.

A move to Mexico, on the other hand, show that I should be able to live on my pensions (gov't - as I have no company pensions) and investment income without ever touching the principal. Big difference! That is why so many consider moves to places like Mexico. The benefits, other than financial, are another story altogether. And I agree that if you are moving for financial reasons alone you might not make the transition to Mexican life.

Have a good sleep tonight FHBoy.


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## terrybahena

I guess we are very lucky. We fell in love with the house we are moving to in Mexico and we able to buy it for cash. We own our house in Ca (no mortgage) and so for us the right move is to rent it out. Our luck continues as we are renting to a close and trusted retired couple, and we will (should) be able to live on the rental income and pay prop txs & ins for the Ca house.
I'm not old enough for SS yet (55) and don't know if it will be around when I get there, and mi esposo is Mexican and so doesn't get SS, so I don't know if there will be anything left to leave my kids...except for the 2 houses I guess. But one daughter is excited to come and the other, at this point will see us when we come back to visit. 
But like my parents (both deceased), I want to enjoy my life, I know we can live simply in Mexico, but I also want to keep traveling, and if anything is left, of course they can have it, but my kids are smart and able, and I expect them to take care of themselves, same as us. Maybe that sounds cold, but we earned ours and they can earns theirs...
my 2 cents...oh so I guess my opinion on rent vs buy is: follow your heart!


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## makaloco

Wow, not sure where to begin. First, I've always considered renting to be throwing money away with no hope of recovery. IMO, the ability to cut and run is the only strong argument in favor of it, and only if you can afford it. I broke "Rule #1" and bought a house on my second visit, though I'd already been an expat for 28 years and wasn't worried about adapting. Also, I retired early on a shoestring, and no way could I have spent even a few months bouncing around trying to decide where I wanted to live. If I'd done that, I wouldn't have had enough left to buy a home when I did make a decision.

The idea that renting preserves your other investments seems to work only if those investments earn more than you're paying in rent. Maybe that's the case for some, but it was never going to happen for me even before the crash, so I used part of my retirement savings to buy and remodel my home. Now five years into retirement, I'd do things the same way. I don't have much, but with a paid-for house, paid-for car, and zero debt, I feel a lot better off than many folks.

I'm not sure why people think they'll need their money more later than they do now. I figure I'll need *less* as I age. Already at 65 I care little about "stuff" and activities that cost money, and at life's end, I doubt I'll be doing much beyond eating and sleeping. What I have left in retirement funds is unlikely to last long even in Mexico, but that was a risk well worth taking for the joy of retiring early. Retirement savings are, after all, for retirement. If the money runs out, I can limp to the US, and throw myself on the mercy of the social services I've paid for during 45 years or so of working. I have no desire to live there, but the older I get, the less strongly I'll probably feel about that, too.

I'm not particularly worried about selling my house if it comes to that. I don't see how a house can be a liability, unless it's the type that can only be sold to other foreigners. In my area, the mainstream real estate market for Mexicans seems to be pretty stable.

I have no kids, and my siblings are near my age. My hope when the time comes is to move on to that big sandy beach in the sky with a minimum of fuss and expense, so as not to inconvenience anybody. If I do end up inconveniencing somebody, that person will get whatever is left.


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## Mainecoons

We bought 5 years ago but if we had to do it over, would probably rent now. Five years ago, the selection of rentals in the area we wanted to live in was very poor. And we hadn't been torpedoed on many of our investments. The other factor is that we paid top dollar and the property could not be sold now for what we have in it.

Having said that, we love the house and location dearly as the best we've ever lived in and our last place was in a primo area and was a top echelon property. So from the standpoint of satisfaction with the purchase, we are fully satisfied. 

We have a number of friends who rent. One has moved twice in less than a year. At my age, this would be a real downer. It is ours and we don't have to go anywhere. So keep that factor in mind when making this decision. You could find a great rental and get fully settled in only to be told the owner has decided to sell it and you have to move. This is what has happened to our friends who are moving again. They now have a supposedly long term rental a couple blocks from us, we hope it works for them.

Purchase prices of the less desirable properties/locations are falling. Where we live, the sold signs are still going up, albeit at a slower pace and with some drop in price. If I wanted to buy now, I'd try to find three or four places I really liked and make very agressive offers on them one at a time until someone bites.


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## HolyMole

RVGRINGO said:


> .........live on minimal SS and one tiny pension, juggling figures for INM and hoping to become 'permanente' to avoid that in the future. Inflation of their requirements could force us out if we don't do that, as others have recognized. We should have done that, or naturalization, many years ago, but they keep changing the rules and frustrating our plans........


Can you clarify the above? Are you saying that, having to renew your visa every year, a combination of declining income due to inflation, coupled with increased annual or monthly income requirements imposed by Mexico could result in you being denied a visa renewal, even after years of residence in Mexico?
That frightening possibility alone might be the single biggest argument in favour of purchasing a home, since that reduces the income requirement....or at least it used to do so.


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## RVGRINGO

You are correct in your understanding of the situation. Even owning a home, we're 'on the edge' and hope to go to 'residente permanente' on our next renewal, if they'll just get the new rules published. If not, we'll have to pay the higher price and wait another year, hoping that the new government won't change things again.


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## surfrider

conklinwh said:


> We rented for about 4 years in San Miguel before we decided that we wanted our own place.
> We wanted to be away a little with a fair amount of land so difficult to rent.
> We ended up building. The base 2BR/2BA house ran just about $50US/sq.ft. By the time we added walls/fencing, brought in water & electricity, etc. it was really more like $75USD/sq.ft. The interesting thing is that once you have a house, the annual carrying costs are very low.
> If I had spent enough time in Mexico to make informed decision and I had the cash available (no mortgage), I would probably build or buy.
> Yes, we live full time in Mexico, minus annual friends/family holiday tour and only income is retirement-pension, SS, 401K's.


Thank you very much for that information. That helps me a great deal. Thank you. surfrider:clap2:


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## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> I came to Guadalajara as a Peace Corps volunteer and lived in a rented apt for two years. After about one year, I knew I wanted to stay in Mexico. I was offered a job in Mexico City but it never came to fruition. I decided the world was telling me to stay in Gdl. So when the Peace Corps term ended I bought a house in the same neighborhood where I had been renting, not far from the center of Gdl. Although I have permission on my visa to work, I don't. My only income is a pension from the US. I live full-time in Mexico but travel a bit, so I am typically away for a week or two or three several times a year. I have been very happy with my choice: of Mexico, of Guadalajara, of the neighborhood I am in, and of the house I ended up with. It has been a learning experience dealing with the usual trials of home ownership. I like to do a lot of the work myself, and have become well known at the neighborhood plumbing, hardware and electrical stores. I am also developing a network of workmen that I trust. But these are all things that I enjoy doing and doing them in Spanish is more challenging and hence more fun.


Thank you so much for sharing this information. It will help a great deal. surfrider.:clap2:


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## surfrider

RVGRINGO said:


> We came to Ajijic and bought, 2 blocks from the plaza. Sold profitably a few years later.
> Moved to Chapala (5 miles) and bought larger property, also in centro, in 2004. We've renovated & are still here in our dotage.
> Dotage & declining resources & inflation become a problem, eventually, so much of your decision will depend upon your age and resources. We wouldn't do anything differently, but this very large property is now definitely our home & we're probably here forever. However, age and infirmity say, "downsize!" The pets and inertia say, "Stay put".
> We have the security of a paid for home with low taxes and upkeep, but we do need the gardener and weekly maid. We're comfortable, but live on minimal SS and one tiny pension, juggling figures for INM and hoping to become 'permanente' to avoid that in the future. Inflation of their requirements could force us out if we don't do that, as others have recognized. We should have done that, or naturalization, many years ago, but they keep changing the rules and frustrating our plans.
> So there; that didn't help at all, did it?


I do not have the words to tell you just how much that did help. I think that you hit all my questions right on the head and your answers were as always honest and real. I can't thank you enough for sharing. surfrider:clap2:


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## surfrider

wow! A lot of stuff came out on the question - rent or buy. I really thank all of you for your input. 
My situation is different than most since I am here because of my disabled adult child. The United States is changing fast and the system for the disabled and the older generations are becoming very serious.
I have a mortgage on my home in California and rent it out for 2,000.00 a month. It is a lovely home but I am forced out by funding changes within the system for the disabled adults in the entire United States.
Therefor, I am looking at this move as living in Mexico forever. I have another child who lives out of country and does not want to care for her brother that is with me here. That is fine with me, my son is not anyone's responsibility but mine.
It is completely logical to look at renting for a few years before the idea of purchasing comes into your head. 
However, in my case I have a whole bunch of things to set up here in Mexico before I leave this earth. 
As far as this government changing things. Personally I have been absolutely shocked to see what my government has already done and is planing on doing with the disabled adults of the baby boomer generation. If I would have stayed in the US I would have been forced to either put my son out of my home or lose my home and both he and I would be stranded. There is no way I would live in Ca. and rent a place with the money that the state now allows the disabled to live on. I would be shot, robbed or worse. 

I think that the reason why there are mixed messages from this post is because each of us has to look long and hard at our own personal situations. They are all different and we all have different reasons for being here, different needs and wants while we are here.
This getting old stuff is not easy.
But again I want to thank all of you for your input. surfrider.


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## FHBOY

As usual, the fine answers have produced intelligent question and I add my gratitude for it. Is it possible that if you ask a given number of USA expats why they left, a good majority will have "economic reason" at or near the top of the list.

Surfrider, you remain an inspirational person - your posts are always spot on - and for we who do not have your situation you heighten our awareness. The Group 3ers look only too happy to help you and I hope you find your place in Mexico.

But as to the buy/rent - we also have a mortgage on our home here and can't walk away as if we were free and clear. With the collapse of the housing market, like everyone, we saw our equity decrease radically. So for us, to have the income in the future from our investments renting is our only choice, as we can it so far.


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## RVGRINGO

Specifically for Surfrider and informational for others:
My wife has an adult, severely autistic son residing in a university setting under state auspices. He's not manageable in any other setting. We just received a request to 'call', as they won't discuss anything in writing or e-mail because of 'privacy issues' .... make that CYA. 
Anyway, they suddenly discover that having him there and us out of the country is somehow in violation of some of their rules for 'instant communication', even though we can talk by phone, as we had to in this instance, or by e-mail, just as if we were a block away. Nevertheless, my wife is now going to have to appoint some staff member as official guardian. We expect that even worse developments await. Never trust 'programs', or your retirement/medical plans. Nobody cares any more.


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## Trailrunner

I'm sorry to hear that, RVG. However, having 'known' you all these years I'd say you and your wife will handle this with all the same grace and dignity that you handle everything else. All the best.

Greetings, this is my first post on this forum. I look forward to getting to 'know' you all as time goes by.

I'm a renter. I/we have rented houses, off and on, over the years in many different states in MX and now for 8 straight years mostly in the Lago Chapala area. Initially, I could have bought here at the lake but chose not to. A decision I have not come to regret but rather come to appreciate.

Renting has allowed me to escape - and I do mean escape - a house that suddenly started falling apart around us, a fighting cock farm with 50 caged roosters that sprung up against my living room/kitchen wall overnight, and a village that became narco and drug lab infested and too dangerous to live in (listen up to that, it can happen and is happening more and more lately). All of my landlords have been Mexican and all have become treasured friends. I love knowing I can move anytime I want to. I love knowing I can move and settle into another city/village/state/beach any time I want. 

The village I live in now is right next to Ajijic, the town where people come in hoards and buy houses within the first 48 hours of arrival with no Mexican experience except a few online articles and newsletters. Some are happy, some are not. Those that are not are trapped, frustrated, and angry. If you want to witness some of that, go to chapala dot com and read some of the threads. Start with the Dreadful Grate threads, there are many.

Here's to making the right decision for you! Hands down, it's best to rent for some time until you decide what you want to do permanently. 

The one thing that you can count on in Mexico (and in life) is change. Additionally, in this country there are few rules and even less enforcement - for some of us, that is the attraction!

Saludos!


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## FHBOY

Trailrunner said:


> I'm sorry to hear that, RVG. However, having 'known' you all these years I'd say you and your wife will handle this with all the same grace and dignity that you handle everything else. All the best.
> Saludos!


Since you are a newbie - altho you are a Group 3er - I'd like to pick your brains when I get the chance. I do not know if you can PM here yet, so I will try to send one to you. [didn't work] Perhaps RV can PM me your email address. We will be in Ajijic the first week of April looking for long term rentals for January/February. Thanks.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Specifically for Surfrider and informational for others:
> My wife has an adult, severely autistic son residing in a university setting under state auspices. He's not manageable in any other setting. We just received a request to 'call', as they won't discuss anything in writing or e-mail because of 'privacy issues' .... make that CYA.
> Anyway, they suddenly discover that having him there and us out of the country is somehow in violation of some of their rules for 'instant communication', even though we can talk by phone, as we had to in this instance, or by e-mail, just as if we were a block away. Nevertheless, my wife is now going to have to appoint some staff member as official guardian. We expect that even worse developments await. Never trust 'programs', or your retirement/medical plans. Nobody cares any more.


I am sorry to hear that. I hope and assume that you will find a way to work it out.


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## Trailrunner

Group 3er? What is that?

You're right, I'm not able to post links or PMs etc. RVG, feel free to give this person my email or connect us via PM c dot com. 

Hasta


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## sparks

To those having a "show monthly income" issue .... I moved down before my Social Security and State pensions kicked in so had basically no income the first year+. I just moved money from savings to checking and also from PayPal to checking every month for the prior 3 months. Worked for me. Lately they are not checking income on Visa renewals but I'm sure they would on your first


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## TundraGreen

Trailrunner said:


> Group 3er? What is that?
> 
> You're right, I'm not able to post links or PMs etc. RVG, feel free to give this person my email or connect us via PM c dot com.
> 
> Hasta


You cannot post links or PMs until you have posted a few times. "Group 3" refers to a categorization of people on this forum provided by someone recently. Group 1 was newbies; Group 2 were people with a little experience; Group 3 were people with lots of experience living in Mexico.


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## RVGRINGO

I've given the necessary information for contact to be made privately. It is up to the one in Ajijic to make the first move by e-mail. Stay tuned, FH.


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## PieGrande

*Give house to friends in Mexico*



sparks said:


> I rented for five years but bought two adjoining lots after two ... and slowly started building. Finally moved in last October. Exhausted much of my savings which wasn't much but now have no rent and yearly expenses are minimal. A number of projects to go but will be piece-meal. And I have a garden that I can do anything I want with .... love a tropical garden !!
> 
> Nobody in my family has an interest in Mexico so they might not even bother to claim it and sell it after I'm gone. Oh well, I'm happy


If you have dear friends or long term trusted workers in Mexico, and no one in your family will want your house, see an attorney and make out a will giving the house to them upon your death. But, don't tell them, heh, heh!!! It doesn't apparently matter to you, but you can help a deserving family if you wish..


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## PieGrande

*we own*

We were allowed to live in a rough house owned by a BIL during our occasional visits. We simply started fixing things up without asking, in trade for being allowed to sleep there when we visited.

Finally, BIL said, why don't you pay me for my improvements since you loaned me the money to buy the 1.2 ha.

So, we did, and have slowly fixed things up as time passed.

2,850 square feet, mostly done but the Big Room with 900 square feet has no tile on the floor, and no revoco (stucco) on most of the outside. My figures show around $30 a square foot, unless I have dropped some numbers. So, the math guys can check me, we have around $85,000 in that 2,850 square feet.

Also, the front door, never used, is the 300+ year old door from my wife's ancestral home, it needs rebuilding. Looks like one of those cathedral doors with the big nails.

I have no idea what it will cost for the needed additional work. I cannot imagine more than $10 more per square foot, but that is strictly a wild guess.

Water system, tinaco on the roof. Float switch, 8000 liter cistern. US standard wiring parts from Home Depot in McAllen. 4 bathrooms; two water heaters. One 'jacuzzi'. Stools all flush t.p. Modern kitchen. Outlets every 6 feet or so, though only 30 amps total. Fireplace for cold winter days. DSL, satellite TV.


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## Detailman

PieGrande said:


> We were allowed to live in a rough house owned by a BIL during our occasional visits. We simply started fixing things up without asking, in trade for being allowed to sleep there when we visited.
> 
> Finally, BIL said, why don't you pay me for my improvements since you loaned me the money to buy the 1.2 ha.
> 
> So, we did, and have slowly fixed things up as time passed.
> 
> 2,850 square feet, mostly done but the Big Room with 900 square feet has no tile on the floor, and no revoco (stucco) on most of the outside. My figures show around $30 a square foot, unless I have dropped some numbers. So, the math guys can check me, we have around $85,000 in that 2,850 square feet.
> 
> Also, the front door, never used, is the 300+ year old door from my wife's ancestral home, it needs rebuilding. Looks like one of those cathedral doors with the big nails.
> 
> I have no idea what it will cost for the needed additional work. I cannot imagine more than $10 more per square foot, but that is strictly a wild guess.
> 
> Water system, tinaco on the roof. Float switch, 8000 liter cistern. US standard wiring parts from Home Depot in McAllen. 4 bathrooms; two water heaters. One 'jacuzzi'. Stools all flush t.p. Modern kitchen. Outlets every 6 feet or so, though only 30 amps total. Fireplace for cold winter days. DSL, satellite TV.


Does your house exceed the norm in the rural Puebla? Sounds like it might. Just trying to get an image of the Puebla.


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## surfrider

RVGRINGO said:


> Specifically for Surfrider and informational for others:
> My wife has an adult, severely autistic son residing in a university setting under state auspices. He's not manageable in any other setting. We just received a request to 'call', as they won't discuss anything in writing or e-mail because of 'privacy issues' .... make that CYA.
> Anyway, they suddenly discover that having him there and us out of the country is somehow in violation of some of their rules for 'instant communication', even though we can talk by phone, as we had to in this instance, or by e-mail, just as if we were a block away. Nevertheless, my wife is now going to have to appoint some staff member as official guardian. We expect that even worse developments await. Never trust 'programs', or your retirement/medical plans. Nobody cares any more.


sent message to you about this - please do not allow them to become the "official guardian" talk to any attorney and he will tell you that if that occurs, you will lose all rights to having any participation or input into his care. They will become the person responsible for all medical, social, educational etc. for that child. 
Surfrider.


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## surfrider

Was there something on the introduction post about using acronyms? (p.s. that was to bring a smile to FHBOY's face). And by the way FHBOY, I tried like crazy to get a down load picture to you of Cher. and was unable. Sorry I could not give the right cheer to you....


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## surfrider

PieGrande said:


> If you have dear friends or long term trusted workers in Mexico, and no one in your family will want your house, see an attorney and make out a will giving the house to them upon your death. But, don't tell them, heh, heh!!! It doesn't apparently matter to you, but you can help a deserving family if you wish..


Hay, if you want to give a house away, My name is surfrider and I would like the house - whatever condition it is in. And if you are going to make out a will - please feel free to contact me for my information to go into that will (when pigs fly ?:flypig: - right?) On well, it was worth a try.


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## Grizzy

Renting vs owning is a huge personal decision. I initially was planning on buying a home here after a year or so of living in Mx to be sure it was right for me. I found a great rental with everything I want at a very affordable price. It would take me 30 years of renting to use up what I had planned to spend on buying a house. So that certainly made me pause in my "buy a home" planning.

I read so many expats complaining about noise near their homes, about clubs opening up, neighbors moving in that destroy the quality of life etc. that I am now quite wary of owning.
I think it is quite funny when some expats seem to preach home ownership on one hand while crying for regulations to control the environment around them to preserve their "investment". I came to Mx to escape the HOA mentality and hope to stay in locations away from that kind of thinking.

So for now I happily rent, earn income on investments and pity the poor souls who can't abide music, goats, roosters etc. Yes that makes me selfish I guess but I am happier than I have ever been here. I will buy if the right home at the right price comes along. In the Lake Chapala area prices are so overly inflated that I won't be buying soon but one day. Perhaps. Or perhaps not.


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## PieGrande

Detailman said:


> Does your house exceed the norm in the rural Puebla? Sounds like it might. Just trying to get an image of the Puebla.


I would say our house is near the upper limits for size in rural Puebla. There are people who own factories and such who have more. But, most folks have simpler houses, for example with corrugated steel roofs. Or, smaller houses. For rural folk 1,000 square feet would probably be a typical size, even for a large family.

That is one reason we have not finished it off. We want it to look a bit rustic and incomplete.

it is also common for larger houses to be made of bits and pieces, as family members get their own families, and add another room or section.

When we were building it, people often asked if we were going to rent rooms.


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## PieGrande

*Great attitude*



Grizzy said:


> Renting vs owning is a huge personal decision. I initially was planning on buying a home here after a year or so of living in Mx to be sure it was right for me. I found a great rental with everything I want at a very affordable price. It would take me 30 years of renting to use up what I had planned to spend on buying a house. So that certainly made me pause in my "buy a home" planning.
> 
> I read so many expats complaining about noise near their homes, about clubs opening up, neighbors moving in that destroy the quality of life etc. that I am now quite wary of owning.
> I think it is quite funny when some expats seem to preach home ownership on one hand while crying for regulations to control the environment around them to preserve their "investment". I came to Mx to escape the HOA mentality and hope to stay in locations away from that kind of thinking.
> 
> So for now I happily rent, earn income on investments and pity the poor souls who can't abide music, goats, roosters etc. Yes that makes me selfish I guess but I am happier than I have ever been here. I will buy if the right home at the right price comes along. In the Lake Chapala area prices are so overly inflated that I won't be buying soon but one day. Perhaps. Or perhaps not.


Love this posting. Love your attitude. Love your knowledge of yourself. Great posting!

As far as bad neighbors, when we moved here, we had one family which could be described as the Neighbors from Heck, ahem. My wife told me the woman was so ornery the less we had to do with her, the better. I insisted. Yeah, my generosity made her think she could kick me around and there were rough times.

Then, one day something snapped, and while I don't remember exactly what I said, it was a major tantrum, involving almost every imaginable threat but personal violence. Almost immediately we became good cooperative neighbors.


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## Detailman

PieGrande said:


> Love this posting. Love your attitude. Love your knowledge of yourself. Great posting!
> 
> As far as bad neighbors, when we moved here, we had one family which could be described as the Neighbors from Heck, ahem. My wife told me the woman was so ornery the less we had to do with her, the better. I insisted. Yeah, my generosity made her think she could kick me around and there were rough times.
> 
> Then, one day something snapped, and while I don't remember exactly what I said, it was a major tantrum, involving almost every imaginable threat but personal violence. Almost immediately we became good cooperative neighbors.


Some people only respect that reaction. Happily it is not the majority of people by any means. Most people will respond to an easy "hand" but you come across a few that need the proverbial "slap" from time to time and when you give it there is a new instant respect that you can stand your ground and even attack. Funny!


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## RVGRINGO

surfrider said:


> Hay, if you want to give a house away, My name is surfrider and I would like the house - whatever condition it is in. And if you are going to make out a will - please feel free to contact me for my information to go into that will (when pigs fly ?:flypig: - right?) On well, it was worth a try.


Hmmm. Maybe we should auction off the rights to be included in our wills. Any bids?


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## Grizzy

RVGRINGO said:


> Hmmm. Maybe we should auction off the rights to be included in our wills. Any bids?


This has given me an idea. (A very scary thought that!) How about a reverse type mortgage where you get a monthly income and after you and your lovely wife depart the dirt of Mexico for eternal happiness the house ownership reverts to the purchaser with the balance paid in cash to your heirs?

I wonder if this could be set up legally here to protect your tenure and the buyer. It might be a brilliant idea. Or I may have been out in the sun with no hat for too long again


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## Detailman

Grizzy said:


> This has given me an idea. (A very scary thought that!) How about a reverse type mortgage where you get a monthly income and after you and your lovely wife depart the dirt of Mexico for eternal happiness the house ownership reverts to the purchaser with the balance paid in cash to your heirs?
> 
> I wonder if this could be set up legally here to protect your tenure and the buyer. It might be a brilliant idea. Or I may have been out in the sun with no hat for too long again


Sounds like you are talking about a reverse mortgage which is available in Canada and the US.

Here is how it works in the US:

A *reverse mortgage* is a form of equity release (or lifetime mortgage) available in the United States. It is a loan available to seniors aged 62 or older, under a Federal program administered by HUD. It enables eligible homeowners to access a portion of their equity. The homeowners can draw the mortgage principal in a lump sum, by receiving monthly payments over a specified term or over their (joint) lifetimes, as a revolving line of credit, or some combination thereof. The homeowners' obligation to repay the loan is deferred until owner (or survivor of two) dies, the home is sold, they cease to live in the property, or they breach the provisions of the mortgage (such as failure to maintain the property in good repair, pay property taxes, and keep the property insured against fire, etc). The owner can be out of the home for up to 364 consecutive days (i.e., into aged care).

Don't know if they have anything like this available in Mexico. Probably not!


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## RVGRINGO

Even regular mortgages are rare in Mexico. If you can get one, you really didn't need it. However, a time-sale contract would work & could probably 'mature at death'. However, the seller might have to continually watch his back & cross streets very carefully.


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## surfrider

Grizzy said:


> Renting vs owning is a huge personal decision. I initially was planning on buying a home here after a year or so of living in Mx to be sure it was right for me. I found a great rental with everything I want at a very affordable price. It would take me 30 years of renting to use up what I had planned to spend on buying a house. So that certainly made me pause in my "buy a home" planning.
> 
> I read so many expats complaining about noise near their homes, about clubs opening up, neighbors moving in that destroy the quality of life etc. that I am now quite wary of owning.
> I think it is quite funny when some expats seem to preach home ownership on one hand while crying for regulations to control the environment around them to preserve their "investment". I came to Mx to escape the HOA mentality and hope to stay in locations away from that kind of thinking.
> 
> So for now I happily rent, earn income on investments and pity the poor souls who can't abide music, goats, roosters etc. Yes that makes me selfish I guess but I am happier than I have ever been here. I will buy if the right home at the right price comes along. In the Lake Chapala area prices are so overly inflated that I won't be buying soon but one day. Perhaps. Or perhaps not.


This really makes sense to me. Plus I had not thought of using the money from the sale for rent. The math works out. Thank you. Surfrider.:clap2:


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## surfrider

RVGRINGO said:


> Hmmm. Maybe we should auction off the rights to be included in our wills. Any bids?


OK, I am in for 100.00 USD. I have the highest bit so far.


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## surfrider

RVGRINGO said:


> Hmmm. Maybe we should auction off the rights to be included in our wills. Any bids?


OK, I will bid 100 usd. so I am the highest bidder right?


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## Grizzy

I will bid 110.


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## mickisue1

If you are going to make this worth RV's time, I think that it's only fair that every bidder pay $10 US for the privilege of bidding.

He has to keep track of the bids, after all.


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## surfrider

mickisue1 said:


> If you are going to make this worth RV's time, I think that it's only fair that every bidder pay $10 US for the privilege of bidding.
> 
> He has to keep track of the bids, after all.


we will put you in charge of that and say what you get 1.5% of the final price for your effort? 
I will go 120.00 (should we tell RV we are doing this)? or just present him with the money and person?


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## FHBOY

*eWills.biz*

So..what do we call this ebiz? I got it eWills.biz. We can open it up so that people who want to participate can post their legacy, anyone who wants to bid on that legacy pays $50.00 USD to register, we will then accept bids and charge on a per bid basis [let's say $10/bid] (eg: Quibids.com). After a certain period of time, the bids will be closed and the winner gets what they bid on - when the will owner kicks it.

The will owner - gets half of that for each person that registers and the bid charge, the balance goes to the owners of eWills.biz? 

So, if I hear about this actually starting up - my lawyers will be after you!

I started out thinking of this as a joke, but you know....


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## mickisue1

FHBOY said:


> So..what do we call this ebiz? I got it eWills.biz. We can open it up so that people who want to participate can post their legacy, anyone who wants to bid on that legacy pays $50.00 USD to register, we will then accept bids and charge on a per bid basis [let's say $10/bid] (eg: Quibids.com). After a certain period of time, the bids will be closed and the winner gets what they bid on - when the will owner kicks it.
> 
> The will owner - gets half of that for each person that registers and the bid charge, the balance goes to the owners of eWills.biz?
> 
> So, if I hear about this actually starting up - my lawyers will be after you!
> 
> I started out thinking of this as a joke, but you know....


I'll get the name registered. 

On a more serious note, there was an article in the AARP newsletter about the number of reverse mortgages going into default, because the homeowners had blown through the mortgage money, and couldn't pay their property taxes and insurance.

Now, in MX, that's not as big an issue. But the property taxes in the US can be so high that I can absolutely see it happening.

eWills.biz could actually give people an alternative to reverse mortgages, even in the US.

Even some who thought they'd leave their homes to their kids are finding themselves having to choose between paying for THIS or paying for THAT.

And becoming an expat is not emotionally viable for some people.

The cash flow from a good bidding war could be just what they need.

And, of course, they could put a minimum on the top bid, so if it wasn't reached, the auction was off.

Dang, I'm starting to like this idea!


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## Grizzy

I think it should be called ewillsgrizz.mx in honor of moi bwa ha ha!

Seriously, I knew reverse mortgages existed NoB but figured probably not down here in Mx. But it is food for thought and could be a viable source of cash for those strapped and whose families would not want to inherit a Mexican casa. It is food for thought.


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## FHBOY

Grizzy said:


> I think it should be called ewillsgrizz.mx in honor of moi bwa ha ha!
> 
> Seriously, I knew reverse mortgages existed NoB but figured probably not down here in Mx. But it is food for thought and could be a viable source of cash for those strapped and whose families would not want to inherit a Mexican casa. It is food for thought.


MICKIESUE AND GRIZZ - see PM or email - FHBOY


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## Grizzy

I was just kidding about naming it after me. I bet that RV knows someone who would be interested in this kind of transaction who is trustworthy and would not be sneaking up behind him shouting "Boo" every day.


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## RVGRINGO

Then.....You could all write essays on, "Why I want that house in Mexico", enclosing a few 'thou' as an entrance fee. Not enough zeros in the previous idea; small market, you know?


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## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> Then.....You could all write essays on, "Why I want that house in Mexico", enclosing a few 'thou' as an entrance fee. Not enough zeros in the previous idea; small market, you know?


You could always sell it to someone and keep a "life estate." That is where you sell your property and maintain the right to live in it for the rest of your life.

I know a developer that bought the property from an older gentleman in his low 80's and gave him back a life estate as he thought the gentleman wouldn't live "that" much longer. Of course the developer really needed the property to consolidate with others he had bought outright so that he could develop all of them together.

When I talked to the older gentleman he was now 98 and so happy. He had received all the money for his house, was living in it for free and told me he was determined to frustrate the developer by living to be 110. Talk about having your cake and eating it too. (Don't know whether he made it to 110 or not, but even at 98 he had enjoyed his house and the money he got for it for another 15+ years.

What do you think of that idea RVGringo? Now are you sorry you ever brought up the subject of your house? Everyone scheming to "help you out"?? ( or circling like vultures???)  with an image of a Chapala hacienda dancing in their heads.


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## RVGRINGO

That's the frightening part; helping me OUT.


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## surfrider

Sorry I started the bidding R.V. was meant to be a joke. However, it does bring up some thoughts on the subject. I disagree with a reversemmortgage unless you get to the last resort. The life estate is an idea but do not know Real Estate law in Mexico to know if it is acceptable. There is rent with purchase option to buy and many other ideas. 

However - the real topic is about weather to rent or to buy property in Mexico? How many people in this forum have seen their property that they purchased increase in value and selling availability by say 5% in a period of 10 years? 5 years? 

The way that I see this is that if you invest into any thing there are two reasons to do so. 1 - is that you will make money on the deal, and 2. is that you just want something that will make your life better or happier.

so does the house that is purchased increase at a good rate? Can you sell it at a good profit? if you rent do you loos the opportunity to purchase and do you throw away money?

surfrider


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## Trailrunner

RVGRINGO said:


> That's the frightening part; helping me OUT.


lol That's funny, RVG. These young 'uns, they're brutal aren't they?


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## surfrider

Hay when you are born with the baby boomers, you learned to grab the first available seat in class cause the schools really did not have enough chairs or class rooms available. Same with the housing market. you learn from experience.


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## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> ... so does the house that is purchased increase at a good rate? Can you sell it at a good profit? if you rent do you loos the opportunity to purchase and do you throw away money? ...


I think those are difficult questions to answer, at least in the area where I live (Guadalajara Centro). The market for real estate is very different from the US. There really are no comparables; a house is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Because real estate taxes are so low, and because most houses are owned without a mortgage, there is not much downside for owners holding onto property even if it is not being used or rented. Consequently, it is very common to see houses sit empty for years. And people will stick to their asking price even if there is no one around willing to pay it.


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## Detailman

surfrider said:


> Sorry I started the bidding R.V. was meant to be a joke. However, it does bring up some thoughts on the subject. I disagree with a reversemmortgage unless you get to the last resort. The life estate is an idea but do not know Real Estate law in Mexico to know if it is acceptable. There is rent with purchase option to buy and many other ideas.
> 
> However - the real topic is about weather to rent or to buy property in Mexico? How many people in this forum have seen their property that they purchased increase in value and selling availability by say 5% in a period of 10 years? 5 years?
> 
> The way that I see this is that if you invest into any thing there are two reasons to do so. 1 - is that you will make money on the deal, and 2. is that you just want something that will make your life better or happier.
> 
> so does the house that is purchased increase at a good rate? Can you sell it at a good profit? if you rent do you loos the opportunity to purchase and do you throw away money?
> 
> surfrider


The only thing that I disagree with is the order in which you put things. I believe that firstly you should buy a place because it fits your needs and makes you happy. You live there for ten years - wonderful. Have you enjoyed every minute of living there? That is wonderful. That is what counts. If in the long run it makes you money that is an extra, but that comes second. I could go into this further but it is only an opinion I have gathered over many years as a land developer. 

Some people buy for profit and they are not really happy living in their choice and when they find ten years later that they are not making a profit they wasted ten years of their life. Do it the other way around.


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## Retired-Veteran

*I'm still here.*

I am not yet in Mexico (although it's only 87 days till I fly down). :clap2:
When I move down permanently, I plan on renting. Perhaps forever! At this time I am living in the fourth house that I have bought within three states. 
At last count I have lived in at least twelve different houses in two different countries and can't remember how many states.

My point is that I realized the longest I have stayed in one place was my homestead in Alaska and that was 16 years. I move constantly. When I feel like moving I always found having to sell my house has always been a great hindrance and a few times I lost a lot of money. 

I have no children or spouse and I'm not close with my siblings. So there is no need for me to worry about leaving a home to anyone. 

I'm not concerned with the laws changing in Mexico on minimum income as right now I receive 2 1/2 times the minimum requirement and in another ten years I'll start receiving S.S. also. 

The decision to rent or buy truly is an individual one and varies as with each person. I hope to find a nice home (rent) for a moderate price ($850.00 a month) and travel as much as I can to learn about the Mexican culture. When I do pass away anything that I have be it my belongings or if I do buy a house I am sure that I'll be leaving it to someone in Mexico that I have not met yet.


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## PieGrande

Good posting, retired-veteran.

Not wanting to offend anyone else, but do be aware the culture in Mexico is different as far as age differences between husband and wife. If you are "house broke", that is, not a drunk or violent, you could have a young family in Mexico. Not saying you want to, but you could. Especially if you could take the children of a young widow, for example. Some men can take other children -- I can -- others cannot.

#####

We put around $85,000 in our house. About five years ago, a man who owns a local factory told our cousin/builder he would give around $180,000 USD for it. This town is land-locked, no building lots for sale at any price, and he drives in a considerable distance every day. This house has all the good stuff; 4 baths, plenty of land around it, good wiring, Internet; city water - cistern - tinaco automatic, fireplace, car port, two water heaters.

Alas, the market of the factories here is the USA, and the local economy is really tanked right now. So, my guess is it would be very difficult to sell the house at any price. That is a guess, since I do not know which factory he owns, of course.

So, I would guess our house went way up in hypothetical value, and now has probably dropped way down again, due to local economy.

When he made the offer, of course, we could not sell, because we need a place to live, and this was exactly what we wanted.


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## PieGrande

By the way, that $850 a month could rent you a very nice place in a gated community in Puebla, near a large shopping center.

There are disadvantages to living in a gated community, such as not rubbing elbows with the general run of Mexico. However, the big advantage is your house will be safe while you travel. It is not considered a good ideal to leave an apartment or house empty for any length of time.

You do not encounter poor people in gated community, and I have had some excellent poor friends in Mexico. But, there will be middle class there, assuming you rent in a middle class gated community. And, they can be very friendly, too.


I just realized I assumed you are a male veteran, which is not a totally rational conclusion. Sorry.


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## Isla Verde

A comment about the theme of this thread - whether to buy or rent when you move to Mexico. It's a nice dilemma for most of you, it seems. However for someone like me, with no means for buying even a room on the _azotea_, the only option is renting.


----------



## makaloco

Isla Verde said:


> A comment about the theme of this thread - whether to buy or rent when you move to Mexico. It's a nice dilemma for most of you, it seems. However for someone like me, with no means for buying even a room on the _azotea_, the only option is renting.


Good point. Someone mentioned $850 as a moderate rental price, and my jaw dropped. Moderate for me would be $350.


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## Isla Verde

makaloco said:


> Good point. Someone mentioned $850 as a moderate rental price, and my jaw dropped. Moderate for me would be $350.


Nowadays I think more in pesos about things like rent. At the moment, I pay $4000 for a small apartment in a nice neighborhood in Mexico City. I could pay less if I moved to a less desirable area, but it's worth it to me to pay that much to stay where I am. I think of my upper limit for rent as $5000.


----------



## PieGrande

*I agree*



makaloco said:


> Good point. Someone mentioned $850 as a moderate rental price, and my jaw dropped. Moderate for me would be $350.


I think the difference would be if you live in an expat colony. My friend, the doctor, had a nice place in a gated community, I forget the name, something Dorado, not far from the Puebla bus station. It was like $600 a month and the owner was raising it. They were building the clinic here in the country, so had to cut back. I think the nice apartment they got near a major shopping center, runs around $400 USD a month. A couple blocks from a Home Depot, and the shopping center. Private indoor parking.


----------



## Guest

Out here in the campo (compared to DF, Guadalajara, Monterrey or Puebla) 3200 pesos per month for a 100m2 house surrounded by mostly great middle class Mexican neighbors...many friends, and most of the rest are acquaintances....Why buy?


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## Isla Verde

GringoCArlos said:


> Out here in the campo (compared to DF, Guadalajara, Monterrey or Puebla) 3200 pesos per month for a 100m2 house surrounded by mostly great middle class Mexican neighbors...many friends, and most of the rest are acquaintances....Why buy?


Where exactly in the _campo_ do you live? I would love to have my own house, but I'm loathe to leave a place that now feels like home. Maybe in my next life . . .


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> By the way, that $850 a month could rent you a very nice place in a gated community in Puebla, near a large shopping center.
> 
> There are disadvantages to living in a gated community, such as not rubbing elbows with the general run of Mexico. However, the big advantage is your house will be safe while you travel. It is not considered a good ideal to leave an apartment or house empty for any length of time.
> 
> You do not encounter poor people in gated community, and I have had some excellent poor friends in Mexico. But, there will be middle class there, assuming you rent in a middle class gated community. And, they can be very friendly, too.
> 
> 
> I just realized I assumed you are a male veteran, which is not a totally rational conclusion. Sorry.


Regarding the advantages/disadvantages of a gated community. You can get around the issue of leaving a house unattended when you travel by hiring someone to check on it every day. My biggest concern is all the pizza vendors that leave advertisements taped to my front door. Left there for several days, they are an announcement that no one is home. So I pay my cleaning lady to come by the house every day and check on it. The cost is pretty nominal and she is happy to have the extra income. To my mind the biggest disadvantage of a gated community is that you are not likely to have a mercado and other shops in easy walking distance.


----------



## mickisue1

Apropos of everything and nothing in this thread, I just want to say thank you for opening my eyes.

I've owned my own home, in one fashion or another, for most of the past 35 years. I realized, reading this thread, that I associate renting with being financially devastated, as I was after my divorce 24 years ago.

That was the only time in that period that I was a renter, and lived, in a period of a little over a year, in two horrid duplexes with my four kids.

But the economics of home ownership, especially for those who may become residents of more than one place, are entirely different. And, frankly, I'm starting to think that I'd rather leave my kids actual money, than a house that they may or may not be able to sell.

This discussion, with all its twists and turns, has been frank and full of useful information. Specifically, information that is helpful in painting a picture of both the present day and the future issues with renting VS buying.

Thank you all.


----------



## PieGrande

TundraGreen said:


> Regarding the advantages/disadvantages of a gated community. You can get around the issue of leaving a house unattended when you travel by hiring someone to check on it every day. My biggest concern is all the pizza vendors that leave advertisements taped to my front door. Left there for several days, they are an announcement that no one is home. So I pay my cleaning lady to come by the house every day and check on it. The cost is pretty nominal and she is happy to have the extra income. *To my mind the biggest disadvantage of a gated community is that you are not likely to have a mercado and other shops in easy walking distance.*


That is why that middle class gated community I mentioned in Puebla is such a sweet deal. It is a few blocks from a major supermarket and shopping center. And, Home Depot.

Is it possible the luxury gated communities are way out from the centro? 

I am told there are many middle class gated communities in Puebla, such as the one I know (even if I can't remember its full name.) And, they are all over the city, not just out in what my mother used to call Silk Stocking Avenue.

Of course, I have no knowledge of other communities.


----------



## PieGrande

mickisue1 said:


> Apropos of everything and nothing in this thread, I just want to say thank you for opening my eyes.
> 
> I've owned my own home, in one fashion or another, for most of the past 35 years. I realized, reading this thread, that I associate renting with being financially devastated, as I was after my divorce 24 years ago.
> 
> That was the only time in that period that I was a renter, and lived, in a period of a little over a year, in two horrid duplexes with my four kids.
> 
> But the economics of home ownership, especially for those who may become residents of more than one place, are entirely different. And, frankly, I'm starting to think that I'd rather leave my kids actual money, than a house that they may or may not be able to sell.
> 
> This discussion, with all its twists and turns, has been frank and full of useful information. Specifically, information that is helpful in painting a picture of both the present day and the future issues with renting VS buying.
> 
> Thank you all.


Over the years, there has been considerable discussion on the Internet, and in books on living in Mexico, renting vs. buying. It is part of your native culture, in the US, that buying is better than renting, and it is hard to shift gears when moving to Mexico.

But, in Mexico, as you say there are different conditions which may indicate different solutions.

I will say for low income people, such as my neighbors here, to own a house means survival, even if it is a tiny, one room, rustic home, with corrugated steel roof. I even saw a house made of blocks with no mortar, no floor except dirt, and corrugated steel tossed on top. It doesn't get any more basic than that. Their cash flow can be very small, but with family help, they always seem to be able to eat. A hundred dollars a month for rent would be impossible. And, it is extremely unlikely they will ever move.

But, those of us with enough assets to get residency papers, circumstances and possible changing events are different. The main point here is do not assume one should buy. That may be the final decision for an individual, but it should be a decision, not a cultural response.


----------



## Retired-Veteran

PieGrande said:


> Good posting, retired-veteran.
> 
> Not wanting to offend anyone else, but do be aware the culture in Mexico is different as far as age differences between husband and wife. If you are "house broke", that is, not a drunk or violent, you could have a young family in Mexico. Not saying you want to, but you could. Especially if you could take the children of a young widow, for example. Some men can take other children -- I can -- others cannot.
> 
> #####


PieGrande
I had to smile when I read what you wrote about the difference between the two cultures. That is the one thing I'm open two, although she does not have to be really young. 
My first income come from the military (VA) along with that also comes a fare amount of medical for myself and a family if married. I have given it a thought if I did get married in Mexico, after I pass away she would receive my V.A. checks every month. Some may not like the thought but I always thought that would make someone's life a lot easier and even more so in Mexico.

As for your question no offence, I don't drink, smoke or use drugs of any sort I also don't gamble and until I move down I haven't dated in years. I actually hope to meet a gal down there and if she has a family that would be great also. I've always wanted children but as of when my marriage of 22 years ended we never could have kids. 

Frankly when I come down I'll be baggage free with the one exception of a very large (245 pound) dog.




PieGrande said:


> By the way, that $850 a month could rent you a very nice place in a gated community in Puebla, near a large shopping center.
> 
> There are disadvantages to living in a gated community, such as not rubbing elbows with the general run of Mexico. However, the big advantage is your house will be safe while you travel. It is not considered a good ideal to leave an apartment or house empty for any length of time.
> 
> You do not encounter poor people in gated community, and I have had some excellent poor friends in Mexico. But, there will be middle class there, assuming you rent in a middle class gated community. And, they can be very friendly, too.
> 
> 
> I just realized I assumed you are a male veteran, which is not a totally rational conclusion. Sorry.


And as far as being a male Vet your correct. ;0) 

Good point about leaving a place empty for awhile I never gave that a thought because I have a large dog. But I am sure when I travel Barney will be going with me. I have thought about the sort of place I wanted to live and at least right now I feel that I would like to live around the locals or at least live in a way that I can come in contact with them every day. I'm not sure if a middle class gated community would want a dog like Barney living in the same yard area as them. At least what I have seen of the gated communities is that they all share a common area and or yard. I pick up after Barney every day but still a lot of people don't like dogs.


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## joelpb

In they city where I live you can rent a very nice house from 2 to 4 hundred dollars.

It is close to the border where you can go shopping or if on medicare you can go and
see the doctor or go to the hospital. You can ride the buses everywhere and the
taxis are cheap. To travel mexico just fly to Guad. and take the bus from there.

Very little crime, but you fell locked up behind the fences and the bars on the windows.

We have a house in san felipe baja go there as often as we can and it is very nice 
there. The beaches are great as well as the sea food. We just went to a blues
festa on the beach had a great time. Lots of people good time.


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## jasavak

Every location is different and constantly changing. Sometimes the rents are very high and it makes more since to buy . However, if the rents are low, it really makes little since to buy. Mexicans often tend to keep properties rather than sell them when they move. This often creates a good renters market and high prices when trying to buy.

My biggest concern is the Dollar will probably lose its value through high inflation. In other words, a $150,000 home might jump to $300,000 with a weak dollar which would cause a big problem if I am renting on a fixed retirement income and the rents adjust to the new higher values.


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## PieGrande

*Retired-veteran*



Retired-Veteran said:


> PieGrande
> I had to smile when I read what you wrote about the difference between the two cultures. That is the one thing I'm open two, although she does not have to be really young.
> My first income come from the military (VA) along with that also comes a fare amount of medical for myself and a family if married. I have given it a thought if I did get married in Mexico, after I pass away she would receive my V.A. checks every month. Some may not like the thought but I always thought that would make someone's life a lot easier and even more so in Mexico.
> 
> As for your question no offence, I don't drink, smoke or use drugs of any sort I also don't gamble and until I move down I haven't dated in years. I actually hope to meet a gal down there and if she has a family that would be great also. I've always wanted children but as of when my marriage of 22 years ended we never could have kids.
> 
> Frankly when I come down I'll be baggage free with the one exception of a very large (245 pound) dog.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And as far as being a male Vet your correct. ;0)
> 
> Good point about leaving a place empty for awhile I never gave that a thought because I have a large dog. But I am sure when I travel Barney will be going with me. I have thought about the sort of place I wanted to live and at least right now I feel that I would like to live around the locals or at least live in a way that I can come in contact with them every day. I'm not sure if a middle class gated community would want a dog like Barney living in the same yard area as them. At least what I have seen of the gated communities is that they all share a common area and or yard. I pick up after Barney every day but still a lot of people don't like dogs.


I have not been in that many Mexican gated communities. The one middle-class, near CAPU (busiest bus station) in Puebla, and one high priced one farther out, not close to shopping centers, as another poster has suggested.

Neither had a common area that I was able to see. The streets, then the private properties. I can't remember clearly the high priced spread, but I think they had a private yard. The middle class one had a very small yard by the house in some cases, others inside the house (an open terraza). Barney could make a horrid mess in that small yard and no one would even know. You could carry a pooper scooper when you walked him in the common streets, of course. 

I can only write of the places I know, and clearly I don't know a lot of gated communities. But, what I do know is sufficient to make it clear there are differences and you could find one to suit you.

###

If you want family, there are only two choices.  A woman who has kids who are acceptable to you. In my personal opinion, that means very small kids so they grow up with you in their lives, rather than you being an invader in an established family. That implies a young woman, in most cases. But, not too young. Late 20's or early 30's is okay, 19 is too young, trust me.

Or, a woman with whom you can have kids. If you want that, you need to play the odds with a younger woman, same age bracket as in previous paragraph. Fertility starts dropping at age 27, and by late 30's, it is catch as catch can.

I am married 36 years to my Mexican wife, we lived in the US until we retired. Learning from the mistakes of others, I have thought through what I would do if I were widowed, and I would probably find a widow with small kids, or an unwed mother of good character (they do exist, which is a totally different topic) with ONE child. If you can find either, with good character, they at times are living lives of quiet economic desperation. But, that's just me. (Note my wife is in great health at 70, and I do expect her to outlive me, this is a personal preparedness issue, I teach it to other men for the same reason.)

There are myths that Mexican women are all saints. Don't believe it. There are cultural differences, but any man who thinks he will have marital bliss by picking out a Mexican woman based only on her beauty or chest size is going to learn real pain. There are faithless women and divorces a'plenty in Mexico. You need to test; test; test before marriage. The financial price of divorce is less, but the pain and misery of a broken marriage is going to be the same, especially if kids are involved.

PM coming your way, retired-veteran, if I can figure it out.


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## PieGrande

245 pound dog? Yikes. I didn't think they had dogs that big, except for Wolfhounds! That has to be some dog.


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## Grizzy

PieGrande said:


> 245 pound dog? Yikes. I didn't think they had dogs that big, except for Wolfhounds! That has to be some dog.


I have been fortunate enough to see pics of Barney and he is a huge loveable looking slobberhound :becky: I would gladly look after him if you want to travel RV (for retired vet not for the grand poobah RV). I am sure the crime spree on my street would end the first morning I took him for a walk


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## Grizzy

Weighing in on gated communities, I have only seen the ****** gulch kind here in the Chapala area and I would sooner poke my eye out with a fork than live in one. This is just a personal preference but the pervasive HOA mentality would drive me bonkers fast. It is not a long trip this week granted but not my cup of tea.

I would love to see a few Mexican style Gated Communities just for comparison. I love my mixed fracc with goats and roosters and horses as well as expats and natives for neighbors. But I have friends who live in the expat enclaves and love the feeling of security so to each their own.


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## Isla Verde

Grizzy said:


> I would love to see a few Mexican style Gated Communities just for comparison. I love my mixed fracc with goats and roosters and horses as well as expats and natives for neighbors. But I have friends who live in the expat enclaves and love the feeling of security so to each their own.


Just what are they afraid of, these denizens of the expat enclaves?


----------



## Grizzy

Isla Verde said:


> Just what are they afraid of, these denizens of the expat enclaves?


As far as I can tell anything and everything. That little gatehouse with the hired guard at the entrance gives them an immense sense of security. I don't understand it myself. I know that one high priced community in this area was burglarized over a two night span and every house was hit. They don't talk about it because of property values 

I feel safer with my walled, bars on windows stand alone house and my neighbors are within shouting distance, and will respond if I holler day or night. The reason the thieves were able to come back the second night and hit the remaining homes is that no one in this enclave speaks to anyone else. :confused2:


----------



## Isla Verde

Grizzy said:


> As far as I can tell anything and everything. That little gatehouse with the hired guard at the entrance gives them an immense sense of security. I don't understand it myself. I know that one high priced community in this area was burglarized over a two night span and every house was hit. They don't talk about it because of property values
> 
> I feel safer with my walled, bars on windows stand alone house and my neighbors are within shouting distance, and will respond if I holler day or night. The reason the thieves were able to come back the second night and hit the remaining homes is that no one in this enclave speaks to anyone else. :confused2:


It sounds like their sense of security is quite illusory. If you put a bunch of expats with enough money to buy into one of these "communities" in one place, it's like putting a sign at the entrance that proclaims "Valuable stuff, free for the taking!". In the case of the one that was burglarized two nights running, it sounds like the security guard was in on it.

If this kind of expat is so afraid of Mexico, why are they living here?


----------



## Grizzy

Isla Verde said:


> If this kind of expat is so afraid of Mexico, why are they living here?



I often wonder that question myself. I suspect they are the minority or that I am lucky enough not to encounter too many of this species.


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## PieGrande

*Mexicans*



Isla Verde said:


> Just what are they afraid of, these denizens of the expat enclaves?


Mexicans.

When we moved to McAllen, we wanted to walk. All the Anglos told us, do not walk on the canals, it is very dangerous. My Mexican wife finally went out and walked on the canals. She told me, no problem, let's go.

We walked out there a lot. We encountered the feared Mexicans. Station wagons full of them. Mom; dad; kids; grandma; grandpa; aunts and uncles. Kids playing, older women embroidering; dad begging the kids to stop throwing rocks in the water and scaring off the fish. The nicest Mexicans you ever met, even in Mexico.

I would joke if they were catching any sharks, and they would laugh as if they thought my stupid joke was actually funny, and show me what they had caught.

We were looked at by our neighbors when they learned we had walked for miles along the canals, as probably suicidal or maybe just insane.

For a while when we moved there some old Anglo would come up to me, while walking in the park and tell me just how much he hated the Mexican people. I would encourage them to get it all out, every bad thing they could think of the horrid Mexicans. After they got it all out, I would tell them my wife is Mexican. Loved the stupid look on their faces.

About the time it stopped because everyone knew my wife is Mexican, I realized the correct response to such comments would have been, "Yes, I understand. Many people do not have the social skills to make friends with educated, middle class Mexicans, so you only know the poor and uneducated. My friends in Mexico are educated people. A founder of universities. Important doctors. High ranking people in the Federal legislature. Lawyers. Successful business men. Artists with international reputation. So, my view is different." 

Rats! I haven't had the chance to use this response, but I am ready to go if the opportunity arises again.


----------



## PieGrande

*Desire to feel like a king*



Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like their sense of security is quite illusory. If you put a bunch of expats with enough money to buy into one of these "communities" in one place, it's like putting a sign at the entrance that proclaims "Valuable stuff, free for the taking!". In the case of the one that was burglarized two nights running, it sounds like the security guard was in on it.
> 
> *If this kind of expat is so afraid of Mexico, why are they living here?*


My guess, and it is only a guess, a desire to be someone important. In the US with the same money, they will not stand out at all. In Mexico, they can live way above their neighbors, and feel very, very important.

I say this is only a guess, because the only contact I have with people like that is on message boards, though they do pretty much let it be known even on boards.

I agree with the security guard theory. In my friends' gated community, nothing like that could happen without the guards calling the cops. But, these Mexicans treated the guards very well, which makes a difference.

One thing I quickly learned 29 years ago, is there is no such thing as a Mexican who is so stupid they can't tell who looks down on them, and who respects them. And, when a Mexican understands you respect them, they can be very friendly.

I was just telling my doctor friend tonight when we still mostly lived in our house in Mexico City, my wife and I would be miles away from home, walking somewhere. And, someone would shout, "Hello, Piegrande!" And, she never got over that. "How do you do that?"

I even had a friend, a Tascara Indian, who lived in one of the small apartments, in Ciudadela, the crafts market. Nice old man, now deceased. The first time I invited him to visit our house, my SIL freaked out. I think she thought I was so stupid I was inviting the Zetas into her house. Once he came, with his wife, she and my wife were enchanted. They were very traditional Mexicans with the traditional manners my wife was raised on.


----------



## Grizzy

PieGrande said:


> My guess, and it is only a guess, a desire to be someone important. In the US with the same money, they will not stand out at all. In Mexico, they can live way above their neighbors, and feel very, very important.
> 
> I say this is only a guess, because the only contact I have with people like that is on message boards, though they do pretty much let it be known even on boards.
> 
> I agree with the security guard theory. In my friends' gated community, nothing like that could happen without the guards calling the cops. But, these Mexicans treated the guards very well, which makes a difference.
> 
> One thing I quickly learned 29 years ago, is there is no such thing as a Mexican who is so stupid they can't tell who looks down on them, and who respects them. And, when a Mexican understands you respect them, they can be very friendly.
> 
> I was just telling my doctor friend tonight when we still mostly lived in our house in Mexico City, my wife and I would be miles away from home, walking somewhere. And, someone would shout, "Hello, Piegrande!" And, she never got over that. "How do you do that?"
> 
> I even had a friend, a Tascara Indian, who lived in one of the small apartments, in Ciudadela, the crafts market. Nice old man, now deceased. The first time I invited him to visit our house, my SIL freaked out. I think she thought I was so stupid I was inviting the Zetas into her house. Once he came, with his wife, she and my wife were enchanted. They were very traditional Mexicans with the traditional manners my wife was raised on.


I think you hit the nail on the head with this answer. :clap2:


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande, thanks for your thoughtful answers to my questions. I feel more grateful than ever that I haven't run into that kind of expat in Mexico City. I´m sure there are some here, but I imagine they live in the more exclusive parts of the city, no doubt in gated communities, places I never frequent.


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## PieGrande

The international executives often rent in Polanco. Those would be the houses with high walls, and heavy construction, but I haven't seen gated communities if there are any there. 

I am told there is a section of the city, very expensive, whose name I can't remember, way out at the south end, where the really rich foreigners may live, as well as affluent Mexicans.

I think your statement is accurate. You simply don't go there.

My niece and I were walking one day, long ago, seems like it was in Coyoacan, though it may have been enroute to there. We came across a large block with one high wall around it. In the street was a squad of armed police, just standing around, looking as if they were on guard duty. We had no idea who lived there, but they would have enough money, they probably needed that much protection. Or, perhaps they were important, thus at risk.

I would say in their case, they most certainly needed that level of security.

Neighbors have told us when we are gone, once in a while someone will come to our house, and walk around it, looking it over. Our house was built with "safe while gone" in mind, so it would take a really good thief to get in.Our builder said actually there are rare cases of thieves taking large sledge hammers, and simply driving a hole in the outer wall. In our case, if someone did that, the neighbors would probably run to our builder's house and tell him someone was beating on the house.

And, once, a neighbor said some guy was snooping around the house. She scurried up and asked him what he wanted. She told him I was very hard of hearing, and sometimes did not hear anyone knocking on the door. 

We also have one of those 4-key locks on the front door, and next trip to Home Depot I will get one for the upstairs door. Our builder says no one out here can pick the single-key locks, as you would expect in the city.

What I call a 4-key lock has one key, but it is like a cross, and each of the 4 canes is a mini-key. I don't know if they have them in the US or not.


----------



## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> The international executives often rent in Polanco. Those would be the houses with high walls, and heavy construction, but I haven't seen gated communities if there are any there.
> 
> I am told there is a section of the city, very expensive, whose name I can't remember, way out at the south end, where the really rich foreigners may live, as well as affluent Mexicans.
> 
> I think your statement is accurate. You simply don't go there.


Building a high wall around your house is not just a function of wanting protection. It's also a style of architecture that comes from Spain and ultimately from North Africa and the Middle East. You can find houses with high walls around them in many parts of the city, not just the areas where the super-rich reside.

Though Polanco is home to many wealthy chilangos, the really exclusive areas are in the south of the city, in places like San Angel and the several Lomas sections. Many years ago I spent the summer in Mexico City and took some classes at the UNAM. At the end of the term, one of our teachers took us on a visit to her sister's home in one of these exclusive neighborhoods. Apparently, she had married into a wealthy family. The property was completed surrounded by a high wall. After we were admitted, we began to walk along a path that wound through the landscaped grounds. We approached a building thinking it was the home of our teacher's sister but were told, no, it was just the guest house! The home itself was large but surprisingly homey inside, beautifully furnished but not pretentious. That was the first, and no doubt the last, time I would have the chance to be a guest in a house like that.


----------



## mickisue1

I am far from wealthy, but have grown close with a number of people in my company who are.

To a person, they are not pretentious, not arrogant and not difficult to approach or talk to.

In my experience, those who are unsure of their worth, whether financially or psychologically, crave the outward signs of prosperity. Those who are comfortable don't care.

If they have the money, of course they live somewhere nice. But not to impress; because it's what they want. If they don't have the money, no problem; they find themselves happy wherever they are.

Interestingly enough, those self-assured people with money tend to give away huge amounts of it. The insecure ones can never afford it; they need it to buy more things that prove, fleetingly, to themselves that they have worth.


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## PieGrande

San Angel, that is the place I am thinking of. Thanks!


----------



## PieGrande

mickisue1 said:


> I am far from wealthy, but have grown close with a number of people in my company who are.
> 
> To a person, they are not pretentious, not arrogant and not difficult to approach or talk to.
> 
> In my experience, those who are unsure of their worth, whether financially or psychologically, crave the outward signs of prosperity. Those who are comfortable don't care.
> 
> *If they have the money, of course they live somewhere nice. But not to impress; because it's what they want. If they don't have the money, no problem; they find themselves happy wherever they are.
> *
> Interestingly enough, those self-assured people with money tend to give away huge amounts of it. The insecure ones can never afford it; they need it to buy more things that prove, fleetingly, to themselves that they have worth.


Years ago, I was part of the Cuban community in our small, rural city. There was an excellent LADY among the Cubans. She was well off in Cuba, but they lost it all. That was her personality, just as you describe. If she was reduced to living in a cave, she'd have gone outside, found a tree with small branches, made a broom, and started sweeping the floor of the cave. Great posting!


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## Retired-Veteran

makaloco said:


> Good point. Someone mentioned $850 as a moderate rental price, and my jaw dropped. Moderate for me would be $350.


I really didn't mean to sound ???? (stuck up?)  when I said moderate $850.00 a month. It's all relevant to what the individual knows. 

I am comparing it to the $2,500.00 a month house payments that I had in Cedar Rapids Iowa and the $1,500.00 a month payment in Iowa City Iowa. There was a time for about eight months I had to make both house payments to total $4,000.00 a month. Plus utilities for both homes.

Even now to my $1,100.00 a month house payment here in little ol Yelm Washington. And that's DOWN from the $1,500.00 a month I use to pay before the loan modification. 

So a payment of $850.00 a month would give me an extra $250.00 a month to spend on other things. When I move permanently I have budgeted for my rent up to but not to exceed my current house payment right now of $1,100.00 a month to compared to that $850.00 is moderate.

I really hope I did not offend anyone as I don't wish to do that.


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## Isla Verde

Retired-Veteran said:


> I really didn't mean to sound ???? (stuck up?)  when I said moderate $850.00 a month. It's all relevant to what the individual knows.
> 
> I am comparing it to the $2,500.00 a month house payments that I had in Cedar Rapids Iowa and the $1,500.00 a month payment in Iowa City Iowa. There was a time for about eight months I had to make both house payments to total $4,000.00 a month. Plus utilities for both homes.
> 
> Even now to my $1,100.00 a month house payment here in little ol Yelm Washington. And that's DOWN from the $1,500.00 a month I use to pay before the loan modification.
> 
> So a payment of $850.00 a month would give me an extra $250.00 a month to spend on other things. When I move permanently I have budgeted for my rent up to but not to exceed my current house payment right now of $1,100.00 a month to compared to that $850.00 is moderate.
> 
> I really hope I did not offend anyone as I don't wish to do that.


Really, there was no need to go into such detail about your personal finances though your wish not to offend anyone is laudable. It's just that to those of us on a more limited budget than you, $850US for monthly rent payments seemed like quite a bit of money, hence our reaction.


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## makaloco

Retired-Veteran said:


> I really didn't mean to sound ???? (stuck up?)  when I said moderate $850.00 a month. It's all relevant to what the individual knows.


No, you didn't say a thing that was stuck up, or otherwise offensive. I was simply taken aback by the amount, and that's based on what *I* know.  With any luck, you'll find a home in Mexico that meets your goal and better. Good luck to you!


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## Retired-Veteran

Isla Verde said:


> Really, there was no need to go into such detail about your personal finances though your wish not to offend anyone is laudable. It's just that to those of us on a more limited budget than you, $850US for monthly rent payments seemed like quite a bit of money, hence our reaction.


I really am thinking that I am out of touch with many things, even in this. Not knowing what is expensive or not as far as rent.


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## Isla Verde

Retired-Veteran said:


> I really am thinking that I am out of touch with many things, even in this. Not knowing what is expensive and what's not, it's all new to me.


I think you'll find that in general things like rent are much lower here than they are back home. For the equivalent of 850 dollars a month, you'll be able to find a really wonderful place to live, wherever you end up in Mexico. Of course, it's all new to you. One of the reasons this forum exists is to help you learns the facts about expat life in Mexico before you arrive!


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## Retired-Veteran

Isla Verde said:


> I think you'll find that in general things like rent are much lower here than they are back home. For the equivalent of 850 dollars a month, you'll be able to find a really wonderful place to live, wherever you end up in Mexico. Of course, it's all new to you. One of the reasons this forum exists is to help you learns the facts about expat life in Mexico before you arrive!


I have a question then perhaps you or others could help.

I only have the internet to search for places to rent in the Lake Chapala area. Would you say what is listed on the average internet listing is representative as to what's available when I get there?

Meaning this, would you believe that the listing shown on the internet are really only aimed at the American and Canadians moving down? When I search, and I have done a LOT of searching I only find somewhat nice places for $850 and above American. Perhaps the lower rents are not shown as often? 

(I by no means am the sort that has to live in fancy places. After all I have lived on my homestead in Alaska with dirt floors and no running water or elc for many many years. LOL)

So do you think there are more homes for rent than what really is listed on the internet? And are the ones listed jacked up in price?

Here is one site I have used for an example. Coldwell Banker Chapala Realty "Rentals"

Just a note: I'm flying down in 84 days and staying for five weeks to look around and see what area of the lake I would like to live so I know I will find out more then.

PS
I'm not asking for rental recommendations just an opinion.


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## mickisue1

Retired-Veteran said:


> I really am thinking that I am out of touch with many things, even in this. Not knowing what is expensive or not as far as rent.


That is one of the reasons that forums like this are so valuable. And why it would do more would-be expats good to participate before heading off for a foreign country to live.

****** inflation is a very real problem in many countries, mostly because of what you described. What seems amazingly reasonable to you (to most of us still in the states or Canada) is appallingly expensive to the average citizen of that country.

And the willingness of some individuals to take advantage of that pricing naiveté leads to certain areas being priced out of the realm of possibility for the people who actually live there.

Think homes in resort areas of the US, for comparison.


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## Grizzy

Prices are relevant to where you live now NoB. What is cheap to someone from the west coast of Canada or the US will seem expensive to someone from North Dakota or Mississippi. You are doing a lot of research and spending time in your chosen area of Mexico in advance of moving to look and learn and get a feel for the real day to day life that no amount of research online will prepare you for. I think you will find what you want here and your visit will reinforce your decision to move. Once the dust of Mexico gets under your skin it is hard to shake it off.


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## Guest

I am still scratching my head over why someone would come to Mexico (or any other country) and pay their rent or buy in US DOLLARS????? Fear of "funny money"? Some type of mental peace or security if all of their assets are in USD? Fear of a collapse in the USD? Fear of renting from a Mexican landlord rather than a foreign owner?

That said, the best deals are usually found by walking around, asking locals (Mexicans) if they know any places for rent, or seeing For Rent signs posted. 

The last place I personally would look is at a real estate company (especially those run by foreigners, or with big internet presence). Next to last place would be an online "expat" website "helping people" move out of the US, for fees naturally. No offense intended for anyone.

If you have no Spanish skills, even if you hire a bilingual Mexican guide or taxi driver by the day or week to help you find a place, you're not going to get skinned as badly when finding somewhere nice to rent.


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## sparks

> So do you think there are more homes for rent than what really is listed on the internet? And are the ones listed jacked up in price?


Absolutely .... the only tricky part is where will you spend your time while looking .... either at listed homes or walking the streets. The last thing you want to do is rent sight-unseen


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## Grizzy

sparks said:


> Absolutely .... the only tricky part is where will you spend your time while looking .... either at listed homes or walking the streets. The last thing you want to do is rent sight-unseen


On my first visit to the village I wanted to make my new home I took a lot of pictures of for rent signs on houses as well as the houses and street signs. That way when I called to ask about the properties I could see the house and know the location. Helped a lot with my less than stellar memory 

Also putting the word out in a neighborhood you like is useful. Shop keepers, delivery guys, etc all know someone with a house for rent that is not on a website or advertised but available. I saw some really cool houses by talking to everyone I met about wanting to rent in a certain area.


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## kcowan

sparks said:


> Absolutely .... the only tricky part is where will you spend your time while looking .... either at listed homes or walking the streets. The last thing you want to do is rent sight-unseen


The inexpensive places are likely available by word of mouth of just a posted for rent (Se Renta) sign. If it is listed on VRBO or with a realtor, they are aiming for ****** tourists. Places around us are rerented without any advertising because they are priced right.


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## Retired-Veteran

sparks said:


> Absolutely .... the only tricky part is where will you spend your time while looking .... either at listed homes or walking the streets. The last thing you want to do is rent sight-unseen


Understood, this is why I am flying down this June for five weeks. I would like to see the different towns/villages around the lake and try to find the area that I will rent in when I move down permanently a few months later.

Right now from my home in Washington all I can do is search the internet and "Try" to build an estimation of what sort of house/apartment can be rented for what dollar amount.


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## Retired-Veteran

GringoCArlos said:


> I am still scratching my head over why someone would come to Mexico (or any other country) and pay their rent or buy in US DOLLARS????? Fear of "funny money"? Some type of mental peace or security if all of their assets are in USD? Fear of a collapse in the USD? Fear of renting from a Mexican landlord rather than a foreign owner?
> 
> That said, the best deals are usually found by walking around, asking locals (Mexicans) if they know any places for rent, or seeing For Rent signs posted.
> 
> The last place I personally would look is at a real estate company (especially those run by foreigners, or with big internet presence). Next to last place would be an online "expat" website "helping people" move out of the US, for fees naturally. No offense intended for anyone.
> 
> If you have no Spanish skills, even if you hire a bilingual Mexican guide or taxi driver by the day or week to help you find a place, you're not going to get skinned as badly when finding somewhere nice to rent.


Sort of hard to flag a taxi in Mexico from Yelm Washington.  With that said, that's why I'm flying down in June for five weeks to look around. 

Until then & right now from my home in Washington all I can do is search the internet and "Try" to build an estimation of what sort of house/apartment can be rented for what dollar amount. 

As far as paying for rent in U.S. dollars you have me confused as far as paying for rent in U.S. dollars you have me confused I have yet to pay even one bill in Mexico. Right now I am more or less fact finding but I will keep what you said in mind. 


As far as the coming economic collapse in America that is in the very forefront of my mind as I decide to move down to Mexico on a Military pension. Sort of scary but I really don't think I want to be in America when/if that happens either.


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## Guest

Retired-Veteran said:


> Until then & right now from my home in Washington all I can do is search the internet and "Try" to build an estimation of what sort of house/apartment can be rented for what dollar amount.
> 
> As far as paying for rent in U.S. dollars you have me confused as far as paying for rent in U.S. dollars you have me confused I have yet to pay even one bill in Mexico. Right now I am more or less fact finding but I will keep what you said in mind.


Here are some houses for rent in Chapala on a Spanish website (Vivastreet). Even without knowing a word in Spanish, you can get the idea. ( space is in square meters or "m2", "recamara" = bedroom, "baño" = bathrooms, "particular" means you're dealing with the owner, "inmobiliaria" means you're dealing with an agency, etc. If the rental figure says "MX$1", it means they're not telling you upfront what the rent is.

VivaStreet Resultados de tu Búsqueda


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## FHBOY

We are now in Ajijic for our week of vacation and looking for long term rentals. Thanks for the tip about vivastreet, and we will begin to walk and take pictures. From NOB I too was internet dependent. Any Ajijic/Chapala leads will be appreciated.


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## terrybahena

FHBOY said:


> We are now in Ajijic for our week of vacation and looking for long term rentals. Thanks for the tip about vivastreet, and we will begin to walk and take pictures. From NOB I too was internet dependent. Any Ajijic/Chapala leads will be appreciated.


Have a wonderful time on your vacation! It's rainy and cold in northern calif, and so I am ever so envious- but in a good way ha ha! As my time gets closer to move I find myself on this forum even more, like a fish just swimming with my mouth open to take in any tidbits! I actually visited another forum, but it's just not as- hmmm well nice actually, meaning courteous and caring which I find on this forum. Anyway have fun fun fun! T


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> We are now in Ajijic for our week of vacation and looking for long term rentals. Thanks for the tip about vivastreet, and we will begin to walk and take pictures. From NOB I too was internet dependent. Any Ajijic/Chapala leads will be appreciated.


Check out the bulletin boards at el Torito, Walmart, Soriana and Lake Chapala Society. There are lots of signs out on houses for rent as well so wander the areas you like.

Looking forward to meeting you and Mrs FHBoy this week


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## RVGRINGO

In Chapala, especially, you will have to drive and walk the streets to find 'Se Renta' signs and to strike up conversations. Rentals are available, but harder to find than in Ajijic.


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## kcowan

Because Chapala is more Mexican and that is the Mexican way...


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## PieGrande

It has been quite a few years since my wife and I took a trip to Guadalajara to see if we wanted to live there. We did like the city itself, neighborhoods with mostly Mexicans. We hired a day driver and he also took us out to Chapala and Ajijic. I think he was a real estate agent.

Anyway, we went into one big circle drive not far from Chapala. We actually liked it, and he said at that time a majority of people there were Mexicans. it was a bit upscale, but not silk stocking avenue.

However, in the end, here we are, in this Third World village in the mountains. I am content here, at least so far.


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## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> It has been quite a few years since my wife and I took a trip to Guadalajara to see if we wanted to live there. We did like the city itself, neighborhoods with mostly Mexicans. We hired a day driver and he also took us out to Chapala and Ajijic. I think he was a real estate agent.
> 
> Anyway, we went into one big circle drive not far from Chapala. We actually liked it, and he said at that time a majority of people there were Mexicans. it was a bit upscale, but not silk stocking avenue.
> 
> However, in the end, here we are, in this Third World village in the mountains. I am content here, at least so far.


That would have been a different environment. I live in a purely Mexican neighborhood in Guadalajara Centro. The nearest and only non-Mexican is just close enough that I have met him, but I never see him around the neighborhood. It would be interesting to compare notes on how a Mexican neighborhood in the middle of big city compares to a small village. I think it likely there are similarities. Clearly there are differences. I know pretty much all of my neighbors and all of the retailers at the mercado a block away. But once you go beyond a block or so it is another world.


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## RVGRINGO

There definitely are similarities, as there are 'neighborhoods' in the big cites; each with an amazing array of conveniences, local shopping and entertainments. Outside of your own neighborhood, you may feel 'foreign', just as going from village to village may expose you to different tribes and their unique customs and even language. In some places, there is friendly coexistence, annual competitions and intermarriage. In other places; war.


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## PieGrande

*That is what we considered*



TundraGreen said:


> That would have been a different environment. I live in a purely Mexican neighborhood in Guadalajara Centro. The nearest and only non-Mexican is just close enough that I have met him, but I never see him around the neighborhood. It would be interesting to compare notes on how a Mexican neighborhood in the middle of big city compares to a small village. I think it likely there are similarities. Clearly there are differences. I know pretty much all of my neighbors and all of the retailers at the mercado a block away. But once you go beyond a block or so it is another world.


What you describe was our initial plan for Guadalajara, not surrounded by other expats. I like the Mexican people, for the most part. Good posting, thanks.

The only difference is I would expect to have friends in the next block as well, and I can say that based on my experience in Mexico City. It is moot now. Though out here in the country, I have friends in other villages for miles around. In the weekly market, people come up to me, all excited, glad to see me, and sometimes I have no idea which village they are from, even though I know their face from somewhere.


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## Retired-Veteran

GringoCArlos said:


> Here are some houses for rent in Chapala on a Spanish website (Vivastreet). Even without knowing a word in Spanish, you can get the idea. ( space is in square meters or "m2", "recamara" = bedroom, "baño" = bathrooms, "particular" means you're dealing with the owner, "inmobiliaria" means you're dealing with an agency, etc. If the rental figure says "MX$1", it means they're not telling you upfront what the rent is.
> 
> VivaStreet Resultados de tu Búsqueda



Thank you very much! I used Google Translate and it worked out pretty well. :clap2: By what I see on the web site I will find a place that I'm sure I'll be happy to rent from. Having to wait until the move day is getting hard. After looking at some of the rentals I can understand why some made a comment about $850 being moderate. There are places that I would be very comfortable in at $490 to $550 American.


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## sparks

I live in a small community a few miles from the beach town that most gringos prefer. My only ****** neighbors are snow birds, one couple just left and the others leave next week. I'll be the only ****** here until Oct/Nov. If I need a speaking in English fix I have a few friends "in town" .... but usually only visit when they need something or I want a traveling companion. All Mexican friends are still working for a living


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## TundraGreen

Retired-Veteran said:


> There are places that I would be very comfortable in at $490 to $550 American.


I have some friends who have a very comfortable 3 bedroom to 2 bath house with rooftop patio/view and pay $4200 mxn/month, about $336/mo, in a nice location, but not on a lake. At one point I knew of several similar rentals at similar prices, but I don't usually pay much attention any more.


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## FHBOY

Went to visit a Ajijic realtor yesterday about a long term rental for next January or February. Once I got used to how to do business here, I learned that in order to get any real idea, I'd have to come back in October. The reason is that it is at that time that the "60 day option" on existing leases need to be exercised and to look at anything at this time is almost pointless, except to get an idea of neighborhoods.

Since rentals have no MLS listing it is matter of visiting places, stopping in at realty offices and taking pictures or notes while you travel around, looking at the bulletin boards outside some restaurants: Tony Bar, El Torito, Wal-Mart etc and asking around.

Social networking, the face-to-face kind, is very much important here. You learn a lot by just asking people and most are only to glad to speak with you.

A note: There is a great difference between the internet search for living places and being here. Last year we found a house we were thinking of buying and loved it. We went back again yesterday and found that it is "so far" out of town, we'd have really been isolated. [Albeit only 5 minutes by car]. So my suggestion would be to visit where you think you wan to live - the internet is great but not the solution.


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## kcowan

FHBOY said:


> So my suggestion would be to visit where you think you wan to live - the internet is great but not the solution.


Make sure to visit Chapala before making a commitment. That should give you a better perspective.


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## Retired-Veteran

kcowan said:


> Make sure to visit Chapala before making a commitment. That should give you a better perspective.


Can you explain more please?


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## FHBOY

kcowan said:


> Make sure to visit Chapala before making a commitment. That should give you a better perspective.


Did that. Candidly it is jumping into the deep end of the pool too quickly for my comfort. There are probably beautiful places to live, like RV's place, but a neighborhood is not only my house, but it has to be place where I feel more comfortable. Perhaps one day I will tire of the Ajijic life, but to move there now is not a choice I will make.

We went there a couple of times, shopped there, went back there to go and get dinner and we were not comfortable. There is no judgement involved in that statement just preference, not everything is for everyone.

That is why it is sooooo important to get off the keyboard and in a plane or car and come down, once, twice, three times to make sure.

I saw, didn't meet, so this is just based on looking,those people we have discussed who seem to have no interest in fitting into the greater Mexican culture, so we will not be them...and that does not have anything to do with where we make our home - it is our desire to fit in and to grow.


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## Jim45D

RVGRINGO said:


> Sparks and I share a very similar attitude. What little family we have, have never visited or shown any interest; even though they could use the money, but they won't even bother to come down. So ........ they get 'nada'.


RVGRINGO: I share your sentiments exactly. "Nada, punto, Nada!" Although we haven't made the full move to Mexico yet. It's not because I'm worried about living there. It's simply because I'm not ready yet. I need to get my RV in shape with it's solar setup, and am in the process. My wife and I live in Az. presently, but have rented in Guaymas, Son, and El Fuerte, Sin. Being a SS receipant myself, and dealing with the outlandish prices here.....well, it's darn near time to go. I don't know what Mexico requires as far as a monthly pension to obtain a FM1, or whatever. We live on it here, and survive.

The only thing that may save me in that particular senario of monthly income is because my wife is Mexican National, and has lived in the states for going on 25 years. We were planning on building in El Fuerte, but ill health finally got to me. We bought the property some 6 years ago, and it's paid for. However, now I would have to hire someone to do the building, and don't have the cash for that either, so now it's back to the RV, and keep planning. I can relate to investiments being "all gone", mine was wiped out in 2008. Incidently, if we live until my wife is eligible for her SS, in another 4 years...we'll be OK..........THERE!!!!


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## surfrider

I live in San Antonio and I love it here. I think there are ******'s around because I see them driving around. However every neighbor around me is Mexican. I live about 1.5 blocks from the lake and on the lake there are people living in tents. People around me are very poor but very wonderful and they are happy and very friendly. We visit on the street because I like they walk everywhere. I also use the "grocery stores" that are in my village. Spanish has yet to find its way to my lips, so I talk in English and they talk in Spanish and we get through it with hugs and smiles. I have an orchard that I share the produce with my neighbors and they send some food over to my place now and then. I would not like to live around all Americans or Canadians. I like the Mexican way of life (with American money that is) I would not like to live as the Mexican's around me live, as I said they are very poor.


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## PieGrande

*Good work!*



Retired-Veteran said:


> Thank you very much! I used Google Translate and it worked out pretty well. :clap2: By what I see on the web site I will find a place that I'm sure I'll be happy to rent from. Having to wait until the move day is getting hard. After looking at some of the rentals I can understand why some made a comment about $850 being moderate. There are places that I would be very comfortable in at $490 to $550 American.


Retired-veteran nails it! Good work!


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## FHBOY

Jim45D said:


> RVGRINGO: I share your sentiments exactly. "Nada, punto, Nada!" . Incidently, if we live until my wife is eligible for her SS, in another 4 years...we'll be OK..........THERE!!!!


Use the SEARCH feature, there have been many discussions on income requirements - I believe it is now about $1500 USD for first person, $900 USD for a second person, but I could be wrong.


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## kcowan

I know gringos here who come on a touristico visa, open a bank account and then deposit the required money and withdraw it again each month for 3 months to qualify. So it is not a question of money to gain residence.


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## masmgt

> I've read all the rent vs. own stuff here and in other places. We were going to buy, found the perfect house in Ajijic, but so many have convinced us to rent for a few years. If you got cash and can buy mortgage free - then yeah, of course a owned home will be better for your cash flow, but how do you know if the house you buy is the place you want to live and then what if it proves not? The other thing is that home ownership in Mexico does not come with the perks of the USA - tax deductions for interest and taxes - as someone pointed out, rather I keep my investments intact, earning interest, than take it out to buy a potential liability (based on the current housing market).
> 
> I have been a home owner most of my 40 years of marriage, and it will be a change to rent - but no argument I have heard has re-changed my mind - not at least for the first couple of years anyway.


As an investment, home ownership in Lakeside is a poor bet. The rental cost to property price ratio is very low as the number of properties bought well in advance of retirement keeps rental rates low. (Many people buy for their future retirement after a single visit here, then rent it out in the interim.)

The key issue is if you are willing to move every few years, and pets add complexity to finding a good rental. If you are pet free and reasonably nomadic, renting is the way to go.

After 15 moves, 7 of them interstate, over 40 years, I bought when I came here with my two lovable Rottweilers.


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## Retired-Veteran

About renting,

Does anyone know of some Expats that have been able to rent for many years without having to move? I mean rent the same house for many years around Lake Chapala.

Or does it go that every year or two a person will inevitably end up having to move?


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## tmex51

I purchased a small lot with a adobe house in a very small town in the mountains, built a bigger house complete with a indoor lap pool out of adobe, in all I've spent less than $50K, property taxes are less than $20 USD a year, based on my genes (aunts/uncles) I have another 20-25 years to enjoy my little paradise, leaving behind a $50K investment to anybody deserving after 20 some years of enjoyment doesn't bother me at all, now if you need shopping malls, traffic light/congestion of big city life it maybe a different story. Perfect weather, down to earth honest hard working proud people is what rural Mexican life is all about, please stop and smell the roses before it's too late


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## Grizzy

Retired-Veteran said:


> About renting,
> 
> Does anyone know of some Expats that have been able to rent for many years without having to move? I mean rent the same house for many years around Lake Chapala.
> 
> Or does it go that every year or two a person will inevitably end up having to move?


My next door neighbours have rented here in the same house for ten years. The neighbours below me have rented for around 13 or 14. I have a friend here who has rented the same house for over ten years as well. Two of the above friends have had no rent increase in the time renting. I am not sure about the third as I don't know them that well and wouldn't ask unless I did know them.


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## Grizzy

kcowan said:


> I know gringos here who come on a touristico visa, open a bank account and then deposit the required money and withdraw it again each month for 3 months to qualify. So it is not a question of money to gain residence.


There are numerous work arounds to get an FM3 if you don't have the monthly income. Talking to people here will result in a lot of creative book keeping ideas and every facilitator will tell you it is no problema.


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## kb9gzg

For "typical" U.S. citizens (like me!), it would seem a no-brainer to rent for a year or two in the Lakeside area before contemplating a purchase. The reasons have already been addressed, but we'd like to test our calling to Mexico before making a large expense decision. Make sense?


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## mickisue1

kb9gzg said:


> For "typical" U.S. citizens (like me!), it would seem a no-brainer to rent for a year or two in the Lakeside area before contemplating a purchase. The reasons have already been addressed, but we'd like to test our calling to Mexico before making a large expense decision. Make sense?


It makes sense to me, but then, that's the current plan for my husband and myself, in a couple of years.

One thing that struck me, in the course of this discussion, was the issue of inheritance.

First off, the way that real estate is inherited is greatly different from what I am used to, as a US citizen. That's something that we could deal with, after finding a good attorney with advice.

But the second piece is what really started me thinking. Do I want to burden our kids with the issues of trying to maintain, rent out or sell property that is located thousands of miles from where they live?

The cost of renting is reasonable enough that it makes more sense to stick whatever profit we get from selling our home into a stable vehicle for earning money, than in a house.

I am coming to love the idea of being "light" enough in possessions that we could move when the spirit moves us, as well.

This thread has been one of the most helpful in this entire forum for me, in helping to sort through the challenges of moving to another country.


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## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> It makes sense to me, but then, that's the current plan for my husband and myself, in a couple of years.
> 
> This thread has been one of the most helpful in this entire forum for me, in helping to sort through the challenges of moving to another country.


It took us 2 years to decide to rent (probably for the rest of our lives). Many of the reasons came from posts on this Forum, so I won't reiterate them.

One, though, did come to the fore - simplify - and for us renting is just that. We've had the disadvantages and advantages of home ownership in the USA most of our lives, and it this point, in a foreign country, we seem to perceive that one will outweigh the other, and we just didn't want it. Will an investment (?) in Mexico real estate prove a good one? We are not gamblers and rather hold on to what we've got then gamble it in the R/E market.

But that's us.


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## kb9gzg

"Simplify" is the plan for us, too, and it makes good sense (anyway for us, at this stage in my life) to rent rather than have to be concerned with ownership. Our children aren't interested in Mexico, and it could become burdensome for them to have to posthumously deal with our property!


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> It took us 2 years to decide to rent (probably for the rest of our lives). Many of the reasons came from posts on this Forum, so I won't reiterate them.
> 
> One, though, did come to the fore - simplify - and for us renting is just that. We've had the disadvantages and advantages of home ownership in the USA most of our lives, and it this point, in a foreign country, we seem to perceive that one will outweigh the other, and we just didn't want it. Will an investment (?) in Mexico real estate prove a good one? We are not gamblers and rather hold on to what we've got then gamble it in the R/E market.
> 
> But that's us.


Another thing that renting a home is a huge plus is if you want to move to another location because the neighborhood becomes too noisy you can do so easily. [bar or rented for functions party house opens up close by, etc.]

My friend from my ex work's brother retired in TJ from LA when his children were all married and with their own lives to live. He sold his house and bought a house in TJ. The house was a nice one and he got it for a great price compared to other comparable ones he had looked at exactly were he would be close to his other brothers, my friend included [he commuted to SD to work for 7 years at that time in a carpool] It turned out to be across the street from a busy bar and the bar had live music until 3AM every Fri. and Sat. night.


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## conklinwh

There are certainly a lot of very valid reasons to rent long term and many discussed. If you do buy, be aware that you must have a separate Mexican will if you want anything to be passed down. Many horror stories of widows being forced to move because house reverted to the state in absence of a Mexican will. Good news is that they are pretty quick and inexpensive. In fact, I think our largest expense was getting the will translated into English to give to our kids.


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## Ken Wood

conklinwh said:


> There are certainly a lot of very valid reasons to rent long term and many discussed. If you do buy, be aware that you must have a separate Mexican will if you want anything to be passed down. Many horror stories of widows being forced to move because house reverted to the state in absence of a Mexican will. Good news is that they are pretty quick and inexpensive. In fact, I think our largest expense was getting the will translated into English to give to our kids.


Excellent point...things are different down here, and even though, as you say, wills are relatively inexpensive, September is purported to be "will month" with most legal offices charging 50% of their normal for preparing a will. I have not taken advantage of this personally, but it has been confirmed by many here on the forum.


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## Anonimo

PieGrande said:


> My niece and I were walking one day, long ago, seems like it was in Coyoacan, though it may have been enroute to there. We came across a large block with one high wall around it. In the street was a squad of armed police, just standing around, looking as if they were on guard duty. We had no idea who lived there, but they would have enough money, they probably needed that much protection. Or, perhaps they were important, thus at risk.
> 
> I would say in their case, they most certainly needed that level of security.


A few years ago, while walking in Coyocan, our amiga Mexicana pointed out such a secured compound and told us that it was the home of ex-Presidente Luis Echeverría. There were Army guards on duty, if I recall correctly.

Saludos,
Anonimo


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## Davidc

Lots of experience here. Question: How to negotiate a purchase price when there is no selling price and yet - open to an offer - as with this one - Colima City, Colima, Mexico ?
Someone has bought and sold property that has advice?


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## jasavak

*Rent vs. Buy*

I was in Leon , GTO and a couple other towns last week . It seems like the rent ration was about 3500 pesos per million peso value . 

For example , home listed one million rents for 3500 , two million 7,000 . 


In dollars this translates to a $77,000 home rents for $270 per month . I believe a $77,000 home would fetch double in the U.S.


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## elchante

Islaverde: i, too, live totally on my social security payments from the US, which are minimal for various reasons [mainly because i worked in the National Parks in the US where my pay was low, but i had free housing and food]. But, yes, I can afford to live here around Lake Chapala even with those minimal payments. 

To the OP: i don't own for several reasons. First of all, I can't afford to buy. i just don't have the money for it. Second, as an old hippie, i don't understand the concept of owning land....just as i don't understand the concept of owning sky or water. and, third, i don't want to be saddled with the responsibility of home ownership. If i need to get the hell out of here, i want to be able to just do it. 

But, as others have said, you just have to make up your own mind. Personally, even if i had the cash on hand to buy, I would rather, at my advanced age, save it to use as i wished, not to have it tied up in real estate. i want access to my money pretty much immediately. 

i've lived in Jocotepec municipality for four years and, even though we are having problems here, i still love it. Not only can i still afford to live here, but i can live better than i ever did NOB!


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## Isla Verde

elchante said:


> i've lived in Jocotepec municipality for four years and, even though we are having problems here, i still love it. Not only can i still afford to live here, but i can live better than i ever did NOB!


That's how I feel about my nice Mexico City neighborhood, though without the problems you're having in your area. I hope things calm down soon for you and your neighbors.


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