# Damn, Can I live on this in Mexico?



## dongringo

I am not a survivalist, just trying to live a normal life in Mexico not because I came here because it is cheap but because I am stuck with a wonderful Mexican woman.

So don´t tell me about your pennyante differences.
Electricity: 1000 pesos every two months, subsidized by Mexico (Until the kids moved 2500)
Phone: 1500 pesos (should be 1000 pesos for full internet and freeby calls most anywhere. (I pay more because I am a hog)
Water: 50 p plus sewage + 14 pesos per each jug of drinking water = 210 pesos
Garbage: 35 pesos
Gas: about 250 pesos per month
Cable: 285 pesos

So my monthly nut before housing is app. 2300 pesos

Add housing - last time renting I paid 2500

Except for housing I can live anywhere for the same cost

My daily food costs are cheaper here, not because food is particularly cheaper, but because there are less goodies available. Let's say 5000 pesos for two. (Yes, I like to eat well)

My entertainment budget is about 1500 pesos per month. Obviously I don´t party much.

My damn cigarettes are now costing me more than my maid's wages.
But if I were a regular drinker and could tolerate aguardiente, I would save a little money.

My car expenses are roughly 2500 pesos per month (including liability only insurance. And that is about 300 miles per week in a huge SUV.

My burn down the house or pay some jerk for a slip and fall claim is NIL.
(literally no insurance available in my part of town)

So let's say I need 14500 pesos - that's a little more than what social security pays usual retirees, and what Mexico thinks you should receive monthly for the old FM3 visa.

Now for the goodies:

I enjoy a maid and a gardener that I could not afford in the US, but now I enjoy making impoverished people feel rich: 5000 pesos per month.

And I like to go places where more food and entertainment is available. 5000 pesos per month.

Now I am on the level that Mexico thinks I should receive monthly for an FM2 visa.
Obviously they want no cheapskates.

My high deductible health insurance now is about 1200 pesos per month.

Add it all up - I can live very very comfortably for about 25000 pesos, except for rent/housing. Frankly I could do that anywhere if I did not have a mortgage or kids.

I realize that there are a lot of people trying to make it on a thousand bucks or less, and yes, it can be done and is being done, if you shave off US wants and enjoy cheap rentals in places you never expected to live in.

But for a normal or let's say average lower middle class ******, except for rent, I really do not see a benefit of moving to Mexico unless you really, really like tortillas and 20 versions of beans. 

So let's bring it to a consesus:
How much does one need to
survive in Mexico: ?
live in Mexico: ?
live well in Mexico: ?
I'll skip the live better in Mexico than the US question.

(PLEASE, skip the commercials about other wonderful aspects of Mexico)


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## FHBOY

dongringo said:


> I am not a survivalist, just trying to live a normal life in Mexico not because I came here because it is cheap but because I am stuck with a wonderful Mexican woman..... (PLEASE, skip the commercials about other wonderful aspects of Mexico)


DonGringo - I hope you get a better response than I did just over a year ago. I tried to get this type of info up here and got about 5 responses, after being told it wouldn't work, I was wasting my time.

This is good info - but it will be skewed by the # of people, the area where they live, their personal needs/wants - and yet I'd like to see some more comprehensive results.

Go for it! :clap2:


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## TundraGreen

dongringo said:


> I am not a survivalist, just trying to live a normal life in Mexico not because I came here because it is cheap but because I am stuck with a wonderful Mexican woman.
> ...
> Add it all up - I can live very very comfortably for about 25000 pesos, except for rent/housing. Frankly I could do that anywhere if I did not have a mortgage or kids.
> 
> I realize that there are a lot of people trying to make it on a thousand bucks or less, and yes, it can be done and is being done, if you shave off US wants and enjoy cheap rentals in places you never expected to live in.
> 
> But for a normal or let's say average lower middle class ******, except for rent, I really do not see a benefit of moving to Mexico unless you really, really like tortillas and 20 versions of beans. ...


Your post just demonstrates a statement I make whenever someone asks how much it costs to live in Mexico. It all depends on your life style. 

I am not a survivalist. I have sufficient income to spend as much as you do every month. But I choose to live a lifestyle that I characterize as "living very well in Mexico". And I spend about 10,000 pesos/month including housing.


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## RPBHaas

So let's bring it to a consesus:
How much does one need to
survive in Mexico: ?
live in Mexico: ?
live well in Mexico: ?
I'll skip the live better in Mexico than the US question.

(PLEASE, skip the commercials about other wonderful aspects of Mexico)[/QUOTE]

Great start to a conversation in my book and well explained. Getting to the basics;
I live in somewhat rural Jalisco, half way between GDL and Melaque in a town of about 50k. 
To survive I would need 10,965 pesos a month. This includes gas and auto upkeep for local travel only.
To live comfortably by USA "middle class standards"- 22,000 pesos
To live like a king- 40, 000 pesos


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## Isla Verde

I live well in Mexico City on around $12,000 MN a month. I have a very small apartment in a nice (not luxurious) safe centrally-located colonia. I don't have a car and am happy to use public transportation and my feet to get around the city. I don't cook all that much and eat out mostly at little restaurants in my neighborhood. My budget also includes bi-annual premiums for a private health insurance plan.


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## gty98270

RPBHaas said:


> So let's bring it to a consesus:
> How much does one need to
> survive in Mexico: ?
> live in Mexico: ?
> live well in Mexico: ?
> I'll skip the live better in Mexico than the US question.
> 
> (PLEASE, skip the commercials about other wonderful aspects of Mexico)


Great start to a conversation in my book and well explained. Getting to the basics;
I live in somewhat rural Jalisco, half way between GDL and Melaque in a town of about 50k.
To survive I would need 10,965 pesos a month. This includes gas and auto upkeep for local travel only.
To live comfortably by USA "middle class standards"- 22,000 pesos
To live like a king- 40, 000 pesos[/QUOTE]


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## FHBOY

gty98270 said:


> Great start to a conversation in my book and well explained. Getting to the basics;
> I live in somewhat rural Jalisco, half way between GDL and Melaque in a town of about 50k.
> To survive I would need 10,965 pesos a month. This includes gas and auto upkeep for local travel only.
> To live comfortably by USA "middle class standards"- 22,000 pesos
> To live like a king- 40, 000 pesos


[/QUOTE]

How much of that is taken up by housing expenses?


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## RVGRINGO

That's a really hard question.
You might be happy in a 1BR place with no yard, centrally located, for $5000 pesos/month rent and everything included; or not included. Or spend twice that for a 2BR with gardens & pool.
Alternatively, you might purchase a large home and have done with it, paying maybe $3000 pesos average/month for maid, gardener, taxes, water, electricity, propane, maintenance/repairs, etc. 
You could do more, less or anything in between. Then, how much maintenance do you do yourself, as opposed to hiring someone for $300 pesos per day to do it all for you?
Too many choices! Look, decide, choose. We can suggest, but we can't always hold your hand.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> That's a really hard question.
> You might be happy in a 1BR place with no yard, centrally located, for $5000 pesos/month rent and everything included; or not included. Or spend twice that for a 2BR with gardens & pool.
> Alternatively, you might purchase a large home and have done with it, paying maybe $3000 pesos average/month for maid, gardener, taxes, water, electricity, propane, maintenance/repairs, etc.
> You could do more, less or anything in between. Then, how much maintenance do you do yourself, as opposed to hiring someone for $300 pesos per day to do it all for you?
> Too many choices! Look, decide, choose. We can suggest, but we can't always hold your hand.


My question was for gty98270 - how it fit in his/her equation. Of course you are correct, but the question wasn't a generalized one.


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## Detailman

This is a question that is on everyone's minds when they move to Mexico. A common answer is that it depends on your lifestyle and how you want to live.
Whereas that is very true, I think that the question being asked here, in my honest opinion, is what different people are experiencing themselves and what it costs them for "their" lifestyle.

Some has already answered giving their personal situation which helps potential expats to gauge things based on that answer. They can determine which group they fit in depending on how they want to live.

From the answers so far we have learned that you can live in Mexico City in a comfortable but careful lifestyle without a car for $12,000 (pesos) per month. You can live in Guadalajara, being careful, for around $10,000 pesos. DonGringo can live an expanded lifestyle (and he explains where the pesos go) for around $25,000 pesos plus housing. Another gave a basis breakdown of: 1) Just survive - $11,000; 2) Comfortable - $22,000; and 3) luxurious - $40,000.

Someone could argue as to what luxurious means and for them it might mean $75,000 but that is not the point. The more people comment and include what it means to them, the more forum members can get a better idea of what would be reasonable for them, plus or minus.

So this thread serves a very important function if people will reply with their comments. (And they do not need to give a complete financial breakdown.) I know it is helpful to me and I would be happy to hear more comments about what people personally experience.


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## La Osita

I'm not a survivalist either, but we live simply in a small village outside of Tequisquiapan, QRO. I love to garden and so have seeds and plants growing in every nook and cranny. I’m relatively sure that I am not going to fit into the average as my lifestyle would be considered well below standard by US norms, and better than average by norms of the village we live in. My husband built our house on family land over a period of 15 years, room by room, so no present cost there, other than when we decide to make some improvement. We cook and heat water by propane, average 175 pesos/mo, Water 300 pesos/mo, Electric 150 pesos/mo., Phone/Internet 400 pesos/mo (my luxury). Food/Sundries 2500 pesos/mo . Gas for the truck 400 pesos/mo.

Yup, we eat beans eleven different ways, rice, nopales, veges from our garden as they are harvestable, eggs from our chickens and jalapenos and tortillas with everything. 
I’d guess with a buffer for the miscellaneous whatevers, we spend from 4,000-5,000 pesos/mo. 

The only thing I'm missing is a library. I'd walk ten miles for more books! Ooh, I did spend $70 this month for the first time, with Better World Books... shipment on it's way!


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## TundraGreen

I think what bothers me about this thread is the underlying implication that the more money you spend, the better your life. Maybe I am just joining the curmudgeon ranks, but I feel like I live my ideal life on an amount that is being referred to here as "getting by", around $10,000 pesos/month. 

I could spend more if I chose to; it would just mean my kids would have a little less when I am gone, but neither I nor the kids are worried about that. And I think my life is better for being unburdened by a car and most the large and small electrical gadgets that we take for granted in the US. I have a stove, refri and computer. Really, what more do you need than those.  

In the interests of full disclosure, the monthly peso amount does not include international travel. I have a son in the US, a daughter in Germany, and a significant other in the US, and I visit all of them a few times a year for brief periods. Those dollar expenses are above the $10K peso/month figure. But for estimating just the cost to live in Mexico. In my opinion, one person can live very well, not just get by, on 10K mxn/month. 

It all depends on your choice of living style, which is why I am always skeptical about the usefulness of the answers when people ask "How much does it cost to live in Mexico?". I suspect this thread, that has gotten into more detail about what you get at various levels of expense, has been more useful to people trying to guess what their expenses will be after a move.


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## RVGRINGO

Welcome to 'the ranks'. You are a single, and some of us are couples with a few pets, age related expenses for medications, help, transportation, etc. Therein lie many differences in monthly expenses and, sometimes, those differences aren't made evident in the responses. It is like the variance in answers, between men and women, to the question, "How many pair of shoes does a person need?"


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Welcome to 'the ranks'. You are a single, and some of us are couples with a few pets, age related expenses for medications, help, transportation, etc. Therein lie many differences in monthly expenses and, sometimes, those differences aren't made evident in the responses. It is like the variance in answers, between men and women, to the question, "How many pair of shoes does a person need?"


I agree. There are factors other than choice involved so I probably should have just said "It all depends on your lifestyle" rather than "choice of lifestyle". Although, having pets is a choice. Hopefully, this comment won't hijack the thread into a discussion of pets, like my ebook comment hijacked it into a ebook discussion.


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## joaquinx

I wonder how many people from the US and Canada relocated to Mexico only because it was cheaper?


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## RVGRINGO

Remember: If you think you have control of your life, go ahead and make plans. Murphy is out there, somewhere ..... always!
Once you know that, and accept it, you'll be able to relax and let Mexico happen to you.


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## FHBOY

As a Group 2er - my take is if you want to duplicate your lifestyle of the USA/Canada, why move except for climate? We are the typical 2-car suburbanites, and that is what we DO NOT WANT TO BE any longer. In the US, that would be quite impossible, if only due to transportation needs.

There is a motto we will follow when we get the Mexico: Live simply. 

I will be happy with my three pairs of shoes, a used car, a bunch of jeans, some shorts - you get the idea.

After a life of acquisition, it is time to shed, more "stuff" means more responsibility, less stuff = more freedom and less stress.


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## RVGRINGO

That's a 'plan', FHBoy. Ring our bell and we'll show you what can happen.


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## vantexan

dongringo said:


> Now I am on the level that Mexico thinks I should receive monthly for an FM2 visa.
> Obviously they want no cheapskates.
> 
> I realize that there are a lot of people trying to make it on a thousand bucks or less, and yes, it can be done and is being done, if you shave off US wants and enjoy cheap rentals in places you never expected to live in.
> 
> But for a normal or let's say average lower middle class ******, except for rent, I really do not see a benefit of moving to Mexico unless you really, really like tortillas and 20 versions of beans.


Well there's working in the U.S. and being lower middle class then there's being retired and having enough assets to live a lower middle class lifestyle. Obviously Social Security alone won't provide a lower middle class lifestyle in the U.S..

I once read a blog, not sure if it was yours but you made the statement on it that Catemaco now has it's own ****** ghetto. That's a very nice R.V. park that affords a turnkey situation that would allow people the chance to try living in Mexico for awhile in an environment that might ease their concerns. I get the impression you equate RVing with something akin to ******* squalor and don't want to see it in "your" town.

What pension I accrued before our plan was terminated will be enough with Social Security to qualify for a permanent visa. But I intend to on just it for a number of years before I hit 62 and am pretty certain I'll be just fine. Being working class I'm used to low expectations. I like to walk, read, and don't need to explore the intricacies of haute cuisine. I don't need a/c since I'm a mountain person, not a beachgoer. I don't need to charter fishing boats or own one myself. I'm fine with a 25" tv, don't have to own a library of music or the high fidelity electronics to truly enjoy it. The sights and sounds of street markets, the smell of street food, that's interesting enough for me. So sorry, not having an independent income will keep most of the po'folk from invading Mexico, if not their own fears and prejudices, but not all of us. So you'll just have to share.


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## FHBOY

Somewhere in this song is the way we feel - we don't think there is virtue in poverty, but people generally accumulate more than they need - and with that comes problems. I won't have the bucks (pesos) others undoubtedly have, but the amount I've managed to have - is plenty for me!

Click:


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## PieGrande

I remember some years ago a man came on another board, and said those who say life is cheaper in Mexico are all liars. He had gone to a Mexico supermarket and priced his grocery list which included such necessities as smoked salmon (I am not joking) and it cost more than in the US. So, he felt we were all liars. I told him right away it was obvious he did not belong in Mexico. Living just like you live in the US is not cheaper. All that luxury stuff has to be imported.

When men ask me how much it costs to live in Mexico, I try, but in the end have to admit that is not a question that can be answered.

So, what I tell them is they need to find a Mexican who has the same income range they have and see how he lives. If he can have a nice car and take trips to the beach, so can they.

If he has to live very simply, so they must. IF he cannot afford a computer and Internet, they also cannot. Etc.

Where I live, a family man who makes 1200 pesos a week, can take care of a family, assuming they have a simple house paid for. That means living frugally, cooking from scratch with few extras. It also means no car, using public transportation, and not going very far very often. A simple TV.

One of the girls in my second English class says she has never been to Tehuacan nor to Puebla city, both around two hours away. Her older sister has been to Puebla once. Her dad, with five kids still at home, has been mostly out of work as are most men here right now. Their diet consists of the traditional Mexican diet. Frijoles; rice; hot peppers; tortillas; and a piece of chicken once in a while. This diet does not cost much, and there are families here which cook over a wood fire, not even needing to pay for cooking gas.

Those girls are lean and strong and healthy. That is how most people were here when I first visited, around 1983. Now, most are drinking sugar laden pop, eating tacos and sweet bread, and obesity is a serious problem as is diabetes. A 22 year old man died of diabetes, Type II a month or two ago.

My wife and I live well, including keeping a mobile home maintained in McAllen. She travels back and forth. At Christmas she went back and her daughter and family and she went to Orlando Disney.

Some months if we stay here and don't do anything in the luxury category, our costs run around $400 for the month. If we had to, we could live that way all the time, but we don't have to so we don't.

Our electric bill has run as high as $25 for two months. I think our meter is on the fritz, last bill was under $12 though we use the same stuff as always.

Taxes run around $20 a year, though we expect to have the appraisal coming up raise it considerably.

Water bill (they call it a tax) runs around $30 a year. We also buy garafones of purified water, 25 pesos each, maybe 2 a week. All $ figures are USD if not stated.

Food and other stuff is strictly personal choice, which is why such numbers are meaningless.


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## Trailrunner

"Damn, can I live on this in Mexico?" The short answer is yes, you probably can. Depending on how smart and flexible you are. I don't know what 'this' is, but I do know people who live on very little here and enjoy a good life and are happy. They compromise and do-without sometimes but so far it has worked for them.

After all, we have to live on what we have to live on. Right? It's easier to do here than there.

Suerte


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## tepetapan

[QUOTE..

I once read a blog, not sure if it was yours but you made the statement on it that Catemaco now has it's own ****** ghetto. That's a very nice R.V. park that affords a turnkey situation that would allow people the chance to try living in Mexico for awhile in an environment that might ease their concerns. I get the impression you equate RVing with something ......[/QUOTE]
It Is NOT a getto, it is a business some locals are jealous of because of the beauty and success. Check out my web page anytime.


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## vantexan

tepetapan said:


> [QUOTE..
> 
> I once read a blog, not sure if it was yours but you made the statement on it that Catemaco now has it's own ****** ghetto. That's a very nice R.V. park that affords a turnkey situation that would allow people the chance to try living in Mexico for awhile in an environment that might ease their concerns. I get the impression you equate RVing with something ......


 It Is NOT a getto, it is a business some locals are jealous of because of the beauty and success. Check out my web page anytime.[/QUOTE]

I agree, have seen your website and read the Church Mexican Camping description. My point is the OP seems to have an issue with those who live in Mexico on a low income and associates lifestyle choices like RVing with low class undesirable types. I wish Mexico's interior had more places like your's.


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## cuylers5746

*Damn can I live on this in Mexico*

Hi Bienvenidos a Mexico;

We live in Nayarit on the West Coast.

First, I would like to say that it's obvious you haven't lived here long. Paying way too much for too many things. Second observation, you're still in that car rat race (you don't need to be in). Learn some more Spanish hang out with your gal's friends & family more and get into the great laid back, super comfortable life style down here. In other words live life like a local, not a ****** dropped onto another planet.

Life is way different down here, less stress - like living in the "good ole days" like first part of 1900's, excepting with modern appliances, conveinences and a fantastic Health Care System.

So let's bring it to a consesus: ANS. For ****** - a whole less for a Mexicano!
How much does one need to
survive in Mexico: ? $ 7,000.00 m.n
live in Mexico: ? 12,000.00
live well in Mexico: ? 18,000.00
I'll skip the live better in Mexico than the US question.

Most people, that we know are lucky to put on 6,000 miles per year on their vehicle. We do that and that includes a 3,000 mile round trip to California for the Holidays. Many Romantic Cities to visit, a car is a complete boat anchor around your neck! For instance, Guanaguato all parking owned by City and at $12.OO m.n per hour 24 hours per day. Stay 3 days, that adds up, especially ludicrous to try and get around town in your own vehicle. Plus you can get there & back many times from your city on their very 1st Class Buss, like we don't even have in USA for less than you would have to pay for just the Tolls, let Alone, gas, hotel, etc.

We have a big comfortable house of 2250 sq. ft + laundry room/garage and with this big of house (almost too big for retirees), we have a maid only twice a week for 6 hours/ day for $1200.00 m.n. per month/average. We over pay her as she's that good. And, gardener? We only pay when we need some one to trim the bushes or trees, maybe 4 times / year = $2,800.00/year. I hear of Gringos in Lake Chapala paying for a gardiner 7 days a week? For what? Cant water or have your maid do that?

You said you have a great gal down Mexico way? Well let her train you and live an even better lifestyle like a Mexicano for about $10,000.00 m.n. less than what you think.

Mr. Salyer


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## PieGrande

I am not going back to re-read OP, but it seems electricity costs a fortune. We use a lot and ours has never been over around $25 for two months. We do not use a/c, not that hot here, but we do sometimes use a small electric heater for baths and similar usage in the winter.

I am not going to say it can be done everywhere. But, here where I live in Puebla if you play your cards right, you can have more than one electrical meter put in. When usage on a given meter runs over a certain amount, costs for all usage explodes. So, if you have more than one meter, the amount of high consumption; high charges is divided by two, and costs may be much less.

Ask your electrician or builder if you can do that where you live.

You could get a range type cord and plug in, and if you use a/c, half way through the month you could unplug from one meter, and move to the other. I am guessing you do not tell CFE why you are doing it, here they say they are going to rent a room or something like that.

As I said, the fact people do it where I live does not prove you can do it where you live. Such is life in Mexico.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> You could get a range type cord and plug in, and if you use a/c, half way through the month you could unplug from one meter, and move to the other. I am guessing you do not tell CFE why you are doing it, here they say they are going to rent a room or something like that.


Let's not be so coy, PG. You don't tell CFE what you're doing because it's not quite kosher, is it?


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Let's not be so coy, PG. You don't tell CFE what you're doing because it's not quite kosher, is it?


Does "not quite kosher" mean "illegal"?


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## PieGrande

This is Mexico. I don't know if it is kosher or not. So, I am recommending if your builder says, "Yes, we do that here," which is what I was told here, you don't put a large sign up telling why. You are in Mexico now, not in the US.

I sort of suspect it is not illegal, because it is common here to have separate meters for renters. I have seen houses with a lot of meters in front if the house is divided into separate rooms.

The reason I am being what you call "coy" is because I am very risk averse. I see no reason to tell CFE why I would do it. And, I see no reason not to do it if needed, and if your builder says it is a good idea.

Let me point out here while neighbors have done this, I have not, because we are not high consumption users. If for some reason I moved into the high use range, I would do it if my builder said it was okay, but I still would not feel compelled to blurt out to the CFE guys why I was doing it.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> This is Mexico. I don't know if it is kosher or not. So, I am recommending if your builder says, "Yes, we do that here," which is what I was told here, you don't put a large sign up telling why. You are in Mexico now, not in the US.
> 
> I sort of suspect it is not illegal, because it is common here to have separate meters for renters. I have seen houses with a lot of meters in front if the house is divided into separate rooms.
> 
> The reason I am being what you call "coy" is because I am very risk averse. I see no reason to tell CFE why I would do it. And, I see no reason not to do it if needed, and if your builder says it is a good idea.
> 
> Let me point out here while neighbors have done this, I have not, because we are not high consumption users. If for some reason I moved into the high use range, I would do it if my builder said it was okay, but I still would not feel compelled to blurt out to the CFE guys why I was doing it.


I see. So you're relying on your builder's knowledge of CFE regulations to do the right thing.


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## PieGrande

>>and if your builder says it is a good idea.

In my case, if it were illegal, my builder would warn me of that. He is the one who told me about it, and he did not say it was illegal.

But, that does not mean you are obliged to spill your insides.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Does "not quite kosher" mean "illegal"?


Maybe more like a gray area, sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" strategy to avoid paying very high electricity bills.


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## PieGrande

*So, you don't get it?*



Isla Verde said:


> I see. So you're relying on your builder's knowledge of CFE regulations to do the right thing.


I find this attitude offensive. Because I suggested you not blurt out to CFE why you are doing it several of you are assuming (incorrectly) that I am suggesting it is illegal

Let me try again one last time. Even if it is not illegal, and I don't think it is, *in Mexico the rules are what the person on the other side of the desk says they are. *I thought everyone who actually lives in Mexico understood this. I guess I am wrong???

So, even if it is totally legal, if you blurt it out, the CFE official may tell you it is not legal, just because that is what people do when they have unlimited power and there is no appeal.

Unless someone has a reason to know installing more than one meter, unless your thoughts are sufficiently pure, is a crime, I don't think you should invent something. if you do find that it is illegal, of course, I would like to know. But, yes, I do trust my builder. He helps people with their legal issues, like making up a legal package for an attorney, and is very conscious of legal issues.


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## PieGrande

*Gray area?*



Isla Verde said:


> Maybe more like a gray area, sort of a "don't ask, don't tell" strategy to avoid paying very high electricity bills.


I do not know if it is a gray area or not. It is to avoid extremely high electrical bills, yes. *As I said, if someone has a reason based on reality as opposed to jumping on me because of the way I explained it, that it is a crime, I would like to know it.* It is not a good idea to evade laws in Mexico, even if the locals do it.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> It is not a good idea to evade laws in Mexico, even if the locals do it.


I totally agree with that statement  !


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## AlanMexicali

*Cfe*



TundraGreen said:


> Does "not quite kosher" mean "illegal"?


My friend and handyman applied for another meter added to his mother's house in Mexicali. He had the meter box all ready to go on the street. When he went to get it at the CFE office they told him the apartment he was living in had to be inspected by them first before the order to install the meter could be approved. They said his apartment needed it's own complete bathroom and kitchen, which meant a sink, stove and fridge and no sharing with the house, except sewer and water, I assume. They added a "B" to the billing address, 123456B for an example. He already had the wiring separated in his place ready to reconnect and they looked at his wiring when there.


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## Ken Wood

I pulled this quote out of a much larger post by PG. 

"*in Mexico the rules are what the person on the other side of the desk says they are. *I thought everyone who actually lives in Mexico understood this. I guess I am wrong???"

I love this statement. To me, this is one of the primary essences of Mexico, one of the core principals that you have to come to grips with if you are to succeed here. In obtaining visas, applying for vehicle permits, home construction permits, even paying the highway toll when you are pulling a small trailer, and hundreds of other endeavors, the success of your effort will often be linked to rule interpretation by "The person behind the desk". Added to the mix is the fact that this person's rule interpretation can sometimes be flexed, in a good or a bad way, by his experience with the individual in line ahead of you. 

In any situation in any country with any "desk person" there is always the likelihood that too much volunteered information is a bad thing, I believe this to be the case here, at least in the projects I have been involved with. I am the firmest believer in having reams of information at hand, and being able to present it quickly and with a smile, but I don't throw it all out there and let them sort through it, I state my case and let them ask for what they need. 

One could preach a sermon on the philosophy of "The person behind the desk", and we all might not agree on all the fine points, but, I am a complete incontrovertible convert.


----------



## FHBOY

So what I am hearing is the only rules are that there ain't no rules except what is interpreted by the bureaucrat in front of you. Interesting. I suppose in that case what PieG says is true and what Ken has added is also true.

I suppose then, on the ground as they sayd, you need to abide by local custom - word of mouth as to what the rules are in your locale, but be prepared to present your case. What I also hear is a lot depends on how you present your case - typical NOB belligerence will be met with same.

In sales we were taught that to get a client on your side, ask for help. "I am not sure I understand what you are saying, can you help me out?" What was taught to us is that people like to help people, it satisfies an ego craving. So, to approach a bureaucrat, the way to get cooperation is to ask for his/her help in solving your issue. "I don't know what to do, I need this second meter in my house, but what will I need to go about it?" Then do it, then go back to the same guy and you will, at least NOB, get the results you wanted, because he/she is now invested in your response-they gave you the way to get it done.

Long winded anecdote (sorry got some time on my hands) - To be a successful car salesman, the first question you need to ask when you greet some one who drives onto your lot is not, "How can I help you?" It should be "Hi, nice to see you, why are you looking for a new car? That car you came in is really a great car. What's wrong with it?" See? The customer (bureaucrat) is telling you what to tell (sell) them. It is really simple.

Now - everyone go out and be a car salesman!!!


----------



## La Osita

Yup, preparation, flexibility and keep it simple! The person behind the desk is holding all the cards.


----------



## TundraGreen

Back to the second meter issue...

Earlier, I asked if it was legal. I think a more relevant question is, is it right? The purpose of the graduated rates is to discourage excess usage of electricity and to help people without much money get at least a minimum supply. We all know the world is facing an energy shortage. Discouraging excess usage seems like a good idea to me. Consequently, circumventing the rules seems like a bad idea to me. If you want to use lots of electricity you should be willing and able to pay for it. If you have circumstances that really require a lot of electricity, and if you have very limited resources, and if it is legal, then go for a second meter. Otherwise, think globally, act locally.

My opinion, and worth just what you paid for it.


----------



## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> In sales we were taught that to get a client on your side, ask for help. "I am not sure I understand what you are saying, can you help me out?" What was taught to us is that people like to help people, it satisfies an ego craving. So, to approach a bureaucrat, the way to get cooperation is to ask for his/her help in solving your issue. "I don't know what to do, I need this second meter in my house, but what will I need to go about it?" Then do it, then go back to the same guy and you will, at least NOB, get the results you wanted, because he/she is now invested in your response-they gave you the way to get it done.


Very similar when dealing with bureaucracy at city hall or in higher levels of government. I lived my life by that rule. You go up to a counter and say "My name is ____ and I am a developer. What I "want" is this. How soon can I get it?" Answer is on the never never plan. You are totally scr#[email protected]@.

Go up that same counter and say (along with the right demeanor): "Hi, my name is Metro Dumptruck and I seem to be having a problem (or something I do not understand). I was wondering if you could possibly help me. (Or explain things to me.)

Over 30 years I found it worked 99 times out of 100. Arrogance is a turn-off to the workers behind the counter and it is the only way they can feel power and in control. As you so rightly say, when you do it the other way they feel in control and they are the benefactors and will "volunteer" to be of assistance to you and explain some "secrets" that could help you.

I believe it will work in Mexico but in a more limited way as cultures are still different and what they sometimes want from you is more than respect but also bribes. In most cases that is not true NOB.


----------



## Detailman

TundraGreen said:


> Back to the second meter issue...
> 
> Earlier, I asked if it was legal. I think a more relevant question is, is it right? The purpose of the graduated rates is to discourage excess usage of electricity and to help people without much money get at least a minimum supply. We all know the world is facing an energy shortage. Discouraging excess usage seems like a good idea to me. Consequently, circumventing the rules seems like a bad idea to me. If you want to use lots of electricity you should be willing and able to pay for it. If you have circumstances that really require a lot of electricity, and if you have very limited resources, and if it is legal, then go for a second meter. Otherwise, think globally, act locally.
> 
> My opinion, and worth just what you paid for it.


That comment is worth its weight in gold! And it cannot be successfully argued against. And it really stands completely seperate from the other arguments and yet with no offense given. :clap2:


----------



## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> Very similar when dealing with bureaucracy at city hall or in higher levels of government. I lived my life by that rule. You go up to a counter and say "My name is ____ and I am a developer. What I "want" is this. How soon can I get it?" Answer is on the never never plan. You are totally scr#[email protected]@.
> 
> Go up that same counter and say (along with the right demeanor): "Hi, my name is Metro Dumptruck and I seem to be having a problem (or something I do not understand). I was wondering if you could possibly help me. (Or explain things to me.)
> 
> Over 30 years I found it worked 99 times out of 100. Arrogance is a turn-off to the workers behind the counter and it is the only way they can feel power and in control. As you so rightly say, when you do it the other way they feel in control and they are the benefactors and will "volunteer" to be of assistance to you and explain some "secrets" that could help you.
> 
> I believe it will work in Mexico but in a more limited way as cultures are still different and what they sometimes want from you is more than respect but also bribes. In most cases that is not true NOB.


This will definitely work in Mexico. Ask for help preceded with a smile and a friendly greeting (Buenos días, etc.). It even seems to work in the offices of hyper-bureaucracies like INM. Luckily, I've never been in a situation where a bribe was expected, or at least hoped for, so I have no suggestions to offer about that.


----------



## PieGrande

*Exactly!!!*



Ken Wood said:


> I pulled this quote out of a much larger post by PG.
> 
> "*in Mexico the rules are what the person on the other side of the desk says they are. *I thought everyone who actually lives in Mexico understood this. I guess I am wrong???"
> 
> I love this statement. To me, this is one of the primary essences of Mexico, one of the core principals that you have to come to grips with if you are to succeed here. In obtaining visas, applying for vehicle permits, home construction permits, even paying the highway toll when you are pulling a small trailer, and hundreds of other endeavors, the success of your effort will often be linked to rule interpretation by "The person behind the desk". Added to the mix is the fact that this person's rule interpretation can sometimes be flexed, in a good or a bad way, by his experience with the individual in line ahead of you.
> 
> In any situation in any country with any "desk person" there is always the likelihood that too much volunteered information is a bad thing, I believe this to be the case here, at least in the projects I have been involved with. I am the firmest believer in having reams of information at hand, and being able to present it quickly and with a smile, but I don't throw it all out there and let them sort through it, I state my case and let them ask for what they need.
> 
> One could preach a sermon on the philosophy of "The person behind the desk", and we all might not agree on all the fine points, but, I am a complete incontrovertible convert.



Exactly my point. Great posting. Thanks for saying it, apparently, so much better than I was able to do.


----------



## mickisue1

While I can't imagine living in some of hotter areas of Mexico without at least occasional use of air conditioning, I think that's one of the things that attracts me to the Lago Chapala area.

The use of air conditioning, when there are natural ways to keep cool on all but the hottest days, is one of the biggest causes of air pollution and global warming. 

OK.

I'll jump down from my soapbox, now.


----------



## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> While I can't imagine living in some of hotter areas of Mexico without at least occasional use of air conditioning, I think that's one of the things that attracts me to the Lago Chapala area.
> 
> The use of air conditioning, when there are natural ways to keep cool on all but the hottest days, is one of the biggest causes of air pollution and global warming.
> 
> OK.
> 
> I'll jump down from my soapbox, now.


Apart from the valid points you make about air pollution and global warming, another reason why it's great not to need AC if you live in the highlands of Mexico is all the money you save. When I think about how I can live here comfortably on two very modest pensions and part-time teaching, I realize that it's possible because I don't have to pay for heat in the (very short) winter and AC during the hot months (usually from April to the end of May).


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> This will definitely work in Mexico. Ask for help preceded with a smile and a friendly greeting (Buenos días, etc.). It even seems to work in the offices of hyper-bureaucracies like INM. Luckily, I've never been in a situation where a bribe was expected, or at least hoped for, so I have no suggestions to offer about that.


Here in Canada I only had one occasion where a Municipal Planner was looking for a bribe. Every time I saw him in private, about a rezoning application, he would start the conversation with something like: "Boy, it's been a long time since I was back in Chile. You know I really love where I was born and I would love to go back there for a visit soon. Its been so long."

I made a noncommital comment on it and pressed on. I never caved and offered the trip and as a result I did not get the rezoning of the property. Rezoning properties to a different classification was a part of my field and this was the only rezoning in over thirty years that I was not successful in. I would have been if I had paid the price but that would have lowered my standards and code of conduct and that is something I will never do for anyone. But I will smile a lot!


----------



## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> But I will smile a lot!


Smiles will take you far in Mexico. I wonder, though, if this works more for women than for men.


----------



## La Osita

Depends on whether the person behind the desk is a man or a woman!!!


----------



## PieGrande

*Good Question*



TundraGreen said:


> Back to the second meter issue...
> 
> Earlier, I asked if it was legal. I think a more relevant question is, is it right? The purpose of the graduated rates is to discourage excess usage of electricity and to help people without much money get at least a minimum supply. We all know the world is facing an energy shortage. Discouraging excess usage seems like a good idea to me. Consequently, circumventing the rules seems like a bad idea to me. If you want to use lots of electricity you should be willing and able to pay for it. If you have circumstances that really require a lot of electricity, and if you have very limited resources, and if it is legal, then go for a second meter. Otherwise, think globally, act locally.
> 
> My opinion, and worth just what you paid for it.


Asking is it right, is a very good question, IMO.

The answer will be an individual decision.

However, my wife and I are very frugal in our use of water and electricity. So, we have decided it is right to be frugal with water and energy.

We are more than frugal. We spent money to make a system which was more efficient. We have a lavadero which can put really soapy water down the septic tank, and less soapy water on some plants she has outside which tolerate modest amounts of soap.

Our automatic washer, we have several 50 gallon barrels beside it, and she puts the used water there, just outside the visitor's bathroom (which we actually use most of the time) and use it in small 4 liter buckets to flush the stool. She also has two smaller barrels, and if she uses hot water, she puts it in there after washing, and manually puts it back in the machine for the next load, until it gets too dirty to use. (This is how my mother used to do laundry years ago, with her wringer Maytag, putting in the cleanest clothes first, and gradually working her way to the really dirty clothes last.)

We receive maybe 50 gallons of water a day from the town, and don't normally use anywhere near that much.

We have a de paso water heater, which means it has a very small tank and heats the water as it passes. We turn it off every day, so a 20 kg tank of gas last the two of us a month or more.

We get irrigation water by 2 inch hose, a lot of it, every 28 days in dry season. We have ten barrels in our big room, and fill them so my wife can water her plants without taking town water.

We can do this because we have assets. The locals cannot do it so they don't.

However, just because my wife have made this decision, I am not going to get in anyone's face if they choose not to, even if they are financially able as we are.


*****

Has anyone seen the CFE rates online? They don't just go up with usage. Once the limit for your class of service is reached, the rates explode. I think the limit for basic residential service is something like 500 kwh for two months, but don't remember right now.

I do not know for sure this is solely to help the planet by reducing consumption. That is our culture speaking again, so while I *assume* that is their reason, or part of it, I am not sure. They will have a transformer for an entire area, and the electricity is distributed by very heavy wires, one insulated in black, the return wire bare metal, though I just realized I don't know that that large bare wire is. (The happy smiling Bugs Bunny who lives on my refrigerator just checked and informed me that bare wire is not magnetic, thus is probably aluminum.)

Each basic residential service is 30 amps, period. They obviously have other classes of service at higher levels, and each excess limit depends upon the level of usage, which differs by class of service.

That is, a big factory does not pay the same rates as a household for the same quantity of electricity. If they did, there would be no factories.

So, I must wonder if part of the excess usage is related to the limits of your local transformer and low voltage system.

Of course, this may be wrong, and it may be a CFE decision how much electricity each user should use without paying much more.

And, part of it is that the government provides subsidized energy to low level users, and those using more would logically be expected to pay a higher percentage of cost of production.

In the US, we have a pretty standard electrical code. Your house entrance must be sufficient to handle the number of outlets of each type you have, the a/c; the range if electric; and the numbers must add up all the way back to the substation, and the numbers there must add up back to the generator, I believe.

Here, you get 30 amps on residential, and it is your problem if you blow fuses for using more than 30 amps.

A house wired like mine would probably have a 200 amp service in the USA, based on the number of outlets and lights connected. Here, 30 amps. I am guessing it may be possible in some places to get more watt entrance, but it would take some money up front, I suspect


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Depends on whether the person behind the desk is a man or a woman!!!


Good point. I've noticed that even young or youngish men tend to be more helpful to me than the young women, especially if I flash my spectacular smile at them!


----------



## La Osita

Keep on smiling! And, yes, I've experienced the same as well.


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Keep on smiling! And, yes, I've experienced the same as well.


With the much younger ones, I have the feeling they were nice to me because I reminded them of their mothers, or even their grandmothers!


----------



## La Osita

Geez, burst my bubble... and I was so enjoying my second childhood, but I guess my graying hair doesn't help!


----------



## FHBOY

:eyebrows: There may be snow on the roof,
But there's still a fire in the basement! :eyebrows:


----------



## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> :eyebrows: There may be snow on the roof,
> But there's still a fire in the basement! :eyebrows:


I like that one. And I guess you're not talking about menopause .


----------



## joaquinx

FHBOY said:


> :eyebrows: There may be snow on the roof,
> But there's still a fire in the basement! :eyebrows:


And Viagra in the medicine cabinet?


----------



## La Osita

FHBOY said:


> :eyebrows: There may be snow on the roof,
> But there's still a fire in the basement! :eyebrows:


Thanks FHBoy... darned right and to he*# with my menopause!


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Thanks FHBoy... darned right and to he*# with my menopause!


As I recall, things get even better after menopause  !


----------



## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> As I recall, things get even better after menopause  !


Sing it, Sister Verde.


----------



## La Osita

Isla Verde said:


> As I recall, things get even better after menopause  !


Ooh, thank you for that hot,oh, I mean news flash because I'm so ready for 'after'!
Sorry guys!:focus:


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Ooh, thank you for that hot,oh, I mean news flash because I'm so ready for 'after'!
> Sorry guys!:focus:


I never had hot flashes, so the transition was pretty easy for me. Maybe we should start a new thread to discuss major life transitions and how living in Mexico makes them easier or more difficult.


----------



## La Osita

Never? fortunate woman! That might be a very interesting thread.


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Never? fortunate woman! That might be a very interesting thread.


Do you want to start it?


----------



## RVGRINGO

Please don't!


----------



## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Please don't!


Why not?


----------



## Trailrunner

rvgringo said:


> please don't!


lol


----------



## La Osita

LOL Too scary... Men-o-pause in Mexico


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> Why not?


This is funny. I was reading the posts in order and when I came to the last post my first reaction to RVGingos comment was: "Why not?" and then I saw your next post.

Great minds think alike OR .... 

I am prepared to defend our position on the second part.


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> LOL Too scary... Men-o-pause in Mexico


Of course, there is such a thing as male menopause. Should we have two threads or a uni-sex one?


----------



## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, there is such a thing as male menopause. Should we have two threads or a uni-sex one?


I vote that it be allowed to evolve.

Something open ended, maybe, about emotional, physical and intellectual changes of aging, and how it's affected you living in MX.


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, there is such a thing as male menopause. Should we have two threads or a uni-sex one?


Sorry, couldn't speak to that whatsoever. But I do think that men should be completely aware of what women experience. It not, they might lack empathy and as a result mates could go through a very difficult period.

With understanding one can help or understand the other so that it does not need to create friction between couples. The fact is not all men are cognizant of what it is all about and as a result there is a lack of understanding and perhaps resulting problems.

There may be many on this site that do understand. But I can assure you that there are probably an equal number that do not understand and perhaps even denigrate it.

Additionally many people come to Mexico and find that their ailments, of all kinds, improve due to fresh fruits, vegetables, life style, lack of tension, etc. What effect does the move to Mexico have on menopause? That too is a worthy discussion and directly relates to the move to Mexico.

My wife made me write this!! (Just kidding - she didn't even know I wrote it but I will tell her after supper.)


----------



## FHBOY

I believe that we should start a thread based on mickiesue's idea. Those of you Group 3er's have first hand experience and we who not yet there would like to hear if, indeed, your move to Mexico had emotional, physical and intellectual effects on your "aging" process.

Of course the is not a Seniors Only forum, so the topic may not be of interest to everyone. I am also not advocating for a Seniors Only forum - we would lose in the exchange if more people do not get involved in discussions.

I leave it up to youse guyz!


----------



## La Osita

All set to go... I took the jump and started a new thread... follow the Groucho Marx quote. In all seriousness I think it's a very useful and helpful conversation to have. Thank you Mickisue1 for cystalizing the idea. Maybe someone can move your last post Pie Grande?


----------



## jasavak

PieGrande said:


> I find this attitude offensive. Because I suggested you not blurt out to CFE why you are doing it several of you are assuming (incorrectly) that I am suggesting it is illegal
> 
> Let me try again one last time. Even if it is not illegal, and I don't think it is, *in Mexico the rules are what the person on the other side of the desk says they are. *I thought everyone who actually lives in Mexico understood this. I guess I am wrong???
> 
> So, even if it is totally legal, if you blurt it out, the CFE official may tell you it is not legal, just because that is what people do when they have unlimited power and there is no appeal.
> 
> Unless someone has a reason to know installing more than one meter, unless your thoughts are sufficiently pure, is a crime, I don't think you should invent something. if you do find that it is illegal, of course, I would like to know. But, yes, I do trust my builder. He helps people with their legal issues, like making up a legal package for an attorney, and is very conscious of legal issues.


 We are going to install two extra meters to keep the baseline usage rates . Nothing illegal about it if they approve the meters . The requirements are that three different households must justify the need . Household one is Grandma , # 's 2 and 3 are the adults living in the home .


----------



## sunnyvmx

In this thread there was a reference made to the "****** ghetto" in Catemaco, which is where I have lived for four years. Besides being a lovely property and RV park, there are seven casitas for long time residents. These are rented by Americans mostly both single and married. In Dec. this year I suffered a burst appendix and very nearly died. The family of residents here were called together by my loud anguished screams late at night. All of them spent the next two months offering support, finding the best surgeon and hospital, finding an ambulance to rush me to the hospital, sitting through two surgeries, getting my many prescriptions, fixing meals, changing my incision dressings, and answering my every need. Many too disgusting to mention. I credit their care for saving my life along with a great doctor. 

Here in Mexico, at our age, we are fortunate to have a close community of gringos or Mexicans when we have left our friends and family back in the States. Neighbors like mine would be hard to find in the U.S. and I might have died alone in my home. 

The cost of living is not why I moved here. It has been definitely a plus. The adventure and the culture of the Mexican people were what drew me to Mexico and now the caring and generous nature of the Americans I live with have shown me what family really means to Mexicans.


----------



## mickisue1

sunnyvmx said:


> In this thread there was a reference made to the "****** ghetto" in Catemaco, which is where I have lived for four years. Besides being a lovely property and RV park, there are seven casitas for long time residents. These are rented by Americans mostly both single and married. In Dec. this year I suffered a burst appendix and very nearly died. The family of residents here were called together by my loud anguished screams late at night. All of them spent the next two months offering support, finding the best surgeon and hospital, finding an ambulance to rush me to the hospital, sitting through two surgeries, getting my many prescriptions, fixing meals, changing my incision dressings, and answering my every need. Many too disgusting to mention. I credit their care for saving my life along with a great doctor.
> 
> Here in Mexico, at our age, we are fortunate to have a close community of gringos or Mexicans when we have left our friends and family back in the States. Neighbors like mine would be hard to find in the U.S. and I might have died alone in my home.
> 
> The cost of living is not why I moved here. It has been definitely a plus. The adventure and the culture of the Mexican people were what drew me to Mexico and now the caring and generous nature of the Americans I live with have shown me what family really means to Mexicans.


While I don't plan to have a medical emergency (who does?), that is a primary reason for my initial search for a place to live as an expat. The COL was part of it, of course. 

But I was, and am, weary of the "every person for him/herself" attitude that has become so prevalent in my own country, and yearn to live in a place where the word "community" means something. 

I understand that it takes time to become part of one, and we will not be instant members of the family, so to speak. But living in a place where people take for granted that a neighborhood means that you are all neighbors means a lot to me.


----------



## FHBOY

sunnyvmx said:


> In this thread there was a reference made to the "****** ghetto" in Catemaco, which is where I have lived for four years... family really means to Mexicans.


Thanks for getting us close to back to topic with your comment which sort of expresses the other side of Gringovilles. Yes, becoming part of the culture and building a new life around it it a prime consideration, but having some familiarity within you community provides a safe place, where in addition to the problem or situation you are facing, you are not also confronted with a language barrier. 

This is no way conflicts with my opinion of people who move to Mexico hoping that they can make it into where they left (IMO then they should never have left), but there are times when being in a familiar place is important.

A word about gated communities: yes they can become little ghettos to keep the world out, but just like your house, they may provide for many that home they are looking for. Staying exclusively inside and isolating yourself in not a function of gates and walls, it is a function of self. I liked a gated community we saw in Ajijic, it was only about a block away from the Carretera, so walking and such was not an issue. I live across from a gated community here in the States - they have isolated themselves and I question why? There is no foreign culture here, there is no really rampant crime in my neighborhood...so it is not just an expat thing.

I say, no matter where your house is, it is you who make it a home.


----------



## PieGrande

*Jasavak*



jasavak said:


> We are going to install two extra meters to keep the baseline usage rates . Nothing illegal about it if they approve the meters . The requirements are that three different households must justify the need . Household one is Grandma , # 's 2 and 3 are the adults living in the home .


Thanks for the information. Let us know when they are installed, or if you are turned down.

I think it is probably easier if you install multiple meters in a new house, than adding to an existing house.

All I knew was it is common where I live. But, people simply guessed it might be illegal.


----------



## PieGrande

*Another Great Posting*



FHBOY said:


> Thanks for getting us close to back to topic with your comment which sort of expresses the other side of Gringovilles. Yes, becoming part of the culture and building a new life around it it a prime consideration, but having some familiarity within you community provides a safe place, where in addition to the problem or situation you are facing, you are not also confronted with a language barrier.
> 
> This is no way conflicts with my opinion of people who move to Mexico hoping that they can make it into where they left (IMO then they should never have left), but there are times when being in a familiar place is important.
> 
> A word about gated communities: yes they can become little ghettos to keep the world out, but just like your house, they may provide for many that home they are looking for. Staying exclusively inside and isolating yourself in not a function of gates and walls, it is a function of self. I liked a gated community we saw in Ajijic, it was only about a block away from the Carretera, so walking and such was not an issue. I live across from a gated community here in the States - they have isolated themselves and I question why? There is no foreign culture here, there is no really rampant crime in my neighborhood...so it is not just an expat thing.
> 
> I say, no matter where your house is, it is you who make it a home.


Wow! Another great posting.

My friends who lived in a gated community in Puebla, were friends with their neighbors in that community. Also, with the gate guards.

I agree it is not the gate that isolates people.

Thanks for pointing out the isolation. It is this isolation, more than anything else, which expats tell me makes it so painful to return to the States after living in a friendly nation. So it is for me.

In Mexico, I make friends everywhere. In McAllen, I am alone, alone, alone. The best I can do is sometimes stop in the street for a short chat with others walking for exercise. I can't explain, but it's just not the same. In McAllen, you have the chat and go your own way until next time you accidentally bump into the same person. In Mexico, they say, "We are having a birthday party Saturday. Please come. " And, they mean it, it's not just words. And, sometimes I go.

Nothing like that happens in the US, at least not to me.


----------



## tepetapan

FHBOY said:


> Thanks for getting us close to back to topic with your comment which sort of expresses the other side of Gringovilles......
> 
> A word about gated communities: yes they can become little ghettos to keep the world out, but just like your house, ,,.. There is no foreign culture here, there is no really rampant crime in my neighborhood...so it is not just an expat thing.
> 
> I say, no matter where your house is, it is you who make it a home.


 Try looking up the definition of getto.
Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...... It is a slam to our property by a guy banned from the property. forever and ever. Amen.


----------



## Detailman

tepetapan said:


> Try looking up the definition of getto.
> Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...... It is a slam to our property by a guy banned from the property. forever and ever. Amen.


Do you mean FHBoy?


----------



## La Osita

Detailman said:


> Do you mean FHBoy?


I don't think so.

The comment refers to a post on pg2 of this thread by Vantexan, where he/she quoted a post made by DonGringo on another blog, as follows:

"_I once read a blog, not sure if it was yours but you made the statement on it that Catemaco now has it's own ****** ghetto. _


----------



## La Osita

Vantexan wasn't at all happy about the comment either.


----------



## FHBOY

As a member of a people who know only too well about ghettos, I do not use that term lightly. 

It is, unfortunately, used in may situations where the connotation of it is not the intent of its use. Referring to a gated community as a ghetto does not mean its inhabitants have done anything else but decided for their common benefit to join together. We have no right to judge their reasons, they belong to them. And that is not an enforced ghetto, rather a voluntary one.

And that is the difference, in our lives we have formed into voluntary ghettos. In New York we called them neighborhoods, the Italian neighborhood of Bensonhurst, Bay Ridge, Long Beach, the Jewish neighborhood like Flatbush, Boro Park, Williamsburg, a black neighborhood like Harlem, Bedford-Stuyvesant, South Ozone Park. In Baltimore, ghetto-ization, until the seventies was even more rampant and hostile - no Jews or blacks could buy a house in Roland Park - a WASP ghetto.

No - we cannot forget the negative aspects in history when people were put in ghettos against their will, but in the modern day we have to some extent done that voluntarily. And if that ghettos-ization becomes so insular and refuses contact with the greater culture, its inhabitants will forever be outsiders in their own land - and this I think is what the poster was referring to - maybe just a poorer choice of words.

I maintain that in a communication milieu such as this when all we have are written words, our true feelings and opinions are hard to express - we lose 60% of our communication tools when we only have keyboards.

BACK TO TOPIC? - _Can I live on this in Mexico._


----------



## vantexan

Sorry about that.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Uh-oh...this thread is dangerous! I turn 65 at the end of May but am planning to wait to retire when I'm 66. The difference in SS income? 1,000 pesos/month. Is it worth it? 

I'm single, and in reasonably good health. From what I've read here I can live pretty well (by my quite simple standard) in many places on 18,500 pesos/month, which I would qualify for six weeks from now.

Oh, what shall I do??? I do give in to impulses, sometimes foolishly...


----------



## Isla Verde

ptrichmondmike said:


> Uh-oh...this thread is dangerous! I turn 65 at the end of May but am planning to wait to retire when I'm 66. The difference in SS income? 1,000 pesos/month. Is it worth it?
> 
> I'm single, and in reasonably good health. From what I've read here I can live pretty well (by my quite simple standard) in many places on 18,500 pesos/month, which I would qualify for six weeks from now.
> 
> Oh, what shall I do??? I do give in to impulses, sometimes foolishly...


I live on a lot less than 18,500 pesos a month in Mexico City. I have a small apartment in a nice neighborhood, no car, eat out a lot at local cafes and restaurants, and pay for private health insurance. I've just figured out that my monthly expenses average 12,000 pesos a month.


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> I live on a lot less than 18,500 pesos a month in Mexico City. I have a small apartment in a nice neighborhood, no car, eat out a lot at local cafes and restaurants, and pay for private health insurance. I've just figured out that my monthly expenses average 12,000 pesos a month.


Isla Verde,

Really appreciate your sharing your personal expenses with us. 

I know that some make a big deal out of saying there is no way to provide costs of living in Mexico but I personally disagree.

When different people, like yourself, provide their living costs and a basic explanation of what it includes (such as frequent eating out in "local" cafes, no car, private health insurance, small apartment) it allows others to extrapolate for their needs or wants and get a pretty good idea of general costs. They can add a car, larger apartment, etc. and arrive at a ball park figure.

It all helps. Thanks again for your post. :clap2:


----------



## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> Isla Verde,
> 
> Really appreciate your sharing your personal expenses with us.
> 
> I know that some make a big deal out of saying there is no way to provide costs of living in Mexico but I personally disagree.
> 
> When different people, like yourself, provide their living costs and a basic explanation of what it includes (such as frequent eating out in "local" cafes, no car, private health insurance, small apartment) it allows others to extrapolate for their needs or wants and get a pretty good idea of general costs. They can add a car, larger apartment, etc. and arrive at a ball park figure.
> 
> It all helps. Thanks again for your post. :clap2:


You're very welcome, Detailman. Details are indeed essential to figuring out the COL for an expat in Mexico. I should also add that since my apartment is quite small, I don't have a washer and have most of my laundry done at the laundromat next door though I do my best to keep my place clean on my own.


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> You're very welcome, Detailman. Details are indeed essential to figuring out the COL for an expat in Mexico. I should also add that since my apartment is quite small, I don't have a washer and have most of my laundry done at the laundromat next door though I do my best to keep my place clean on my own.


Your posts on a number of different subjects add to this forum. Keep up the good work as you are in Group 3!! (You know have to live up to the reputation that is implied by that "large" reputation number!!)  And I know that you are a detail person yourself.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Ahhhhhhggh! $12,000 in DF? Don't tell me, I am weakening by the minute!


----------



## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> Your posts on a number of different subjects add to this forum. Keep up the good work as you are in Group 3!! (You know have to live up to the reputation that is implied by that "large" reputation number!!)  And I know that you are a detail person yourself.


Your compliments have made my day  ! Details are what add spice to my life. I am partial to garlic and onions, by the way.


----------



## Isla Verde

ptrichmondmike said:


> Ahhhhhhggh! $12,000 in DF? Don't tell me, I am weakening by the minute!


Keep in mind the details I posted about my budget. If your proposed life-style includes things like a car and hanging out in trendy bars every night, then my budget would not be adequate. And everything is not more expensive in the D.F. For example, public transportation (and improving all the time, I might add) is often less than it is other Mexican cities.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Isla Verde said:


> Keep in mind the details I posted about my budget. If your proposed life-style includes things like a car and hanging out in trendy bars every night, then my budget would not be adequate. And everything is not more expensive in the D.F. For example, public transportation (and improving all the time, I might add) is often less than it is other Mexican cities.


Lol...I am a homebody who spends hours every day reading, broken up by the occasional stroll (or nap), and I haven't bothered with a car in more than ten years. I go to a nearby sports bar once a year to see the Cal-Stanford football game on a huge screen. When I say I live simply, I mean it.

I've stockpiled nearly 600 books on my Kindle just for retirement, and will get a second Kindle if necessary...so the relative lack of English-language books is inconsequential. As long as I have electricity and the internet (and it's not hot and humid), I will be happy.


----------



## TundraGreen

I am really glad to hear there are others who are living a simple life in Mexico around ten thousands pesos a month. I live on about the same amount as Isla Verde with no car, using public transit, eating in restaurants rarely, going to bars almost never. I own the house I live in but I could rent a small house or apartment for about what I spend maintaining the house. I feel like my quality of life is wonderful. I have everything I need.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

TundraGreen said:


> I feel like my quality of life is wonderful. I have everything I need.


And that -- in short -- is Happiness, is it not?


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I am really glad to hear there are others who are living a simple life in Mexico around ten thousands pesos a month. I live on about the same amount as Isla Verde with no car, using public transit, eating in restaurants rarely, going to bars almost never. I own the house I live in but I could rent a small house or apartment for about what I spend maintaining the house. I feel like my quality of life is wonderful. I have everything I need.


I live about the same way as I did in New York City, except that I did have a TV with cable there. Of course, the weather in Mexico is usually perfect, so I don't have to pay for heat in the winter and AC in the summer. My main entertainment is going to the movies, which cost a fraction of what they did in NYC, and to museums, which are either much cheaper than they were in the Big Apple, or free. Love that INAPAM card!


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> Your compliments have made my day  ! Details are what add spice to my life. I am partial to garlic and onions, by the way.


I am glad! 

If a person does not like garlic and onions they are not NORMAL!! Not only do they add flavour to many recipes but they are extremely healthy as well. I agree that our lives would be boring without them!


----------



## Detailman

:clap2:


TundraGreen said:


> I am really glad to hear there are others who are living a simple life in Mexico around ten thousands pesos a month. I live on about the same amount as Isla Verde with no car, using public transit, eating in restaurants rarely, going to bars almost never. I own the house I live in but I could rent a small house or apartment for about what I spend maintaining the house. I feel like my quality of life is wonderful. I have everything I need.


TundraGreen,

Good for you!!! :clap2:

My personal opinion is that most people's lives are too complex and as a result they spend far too much time on "things" that do not matter in the overall scheme of life. In fact many times those "things" bring added worry as they try to protect them or look after them.

Those that simplify their lives are able to concentrate on what is truly important and as a result end up enjoying life’s "simple" pleasures.

What value do you put on admiring a beautiful sunrise or sunset? The sound of birds singing in the trees. Analysing architecture. Watching families with their children interacting in the plaza. Reading a good book. Conversing leisurely with good friends over a coffee. Going for a long walk and "smelling the roses!" Little or no cost and incomparable enjoyment.

Life can be sweet but it doesn’t have to be complex!


----------



## billder99

The area where we live has some of the highest prices in Mexico for dining, groceries, housing, construction, everything! We live a very comfortable life, including:


Gardener & Housekeeper
2 Cars
Dining out 4-5x per week (including all meals out... I am big on breakfast and lunch)
Dinner Entertaining 2x per month (when we throw parties and absorb cost)
Travel to the US to visit family & freinds 2x per year
Hobbies, toys and fun: We own a nice boat and spend lots of time on the Sea of Cortez... I play guitar and spend a bit on that... spearfishing, another fairly expensive activity... we love to go hiking and exploring... the most common activity is social activity with the many friends we have made here.
All the beer, tequila (me) decent wine (wife), chips and guacamole we can consume

We did pay cash for our house, so our only other big cost is utilities (electric is EXPENSIVE in the summer with AC running much of the time)

Our annual average monthly cost is around $3,000. We could easily cut that back to $2,000 and still live quite nicely, especially as we grow older. We will soon have social security (in 6 more years) and our joint benefits will be more than $3,000/month. We are healthy and plan to live to 100, or until Social Security goes broke.

BD


----------



## Detailman

billder99 said:


> The area where we live has some of the highest prices in Mexico for dining, groceries, housing, construction, everything! We live a very comfortable life, including:
> 
> 
> Gardener & Housekeeper
> 2 Cars
> Dining out 4-5x per week (including all meals out... I am big on breakfast and lunch)
> Dinner Entertaining 2x per month (when we throw parties and absorb cost)
> Travel to the US to visit family & freinds 2x per year
> Hobbies, toys and fun: We own a nice boat and spend lots of time on the Sea of Cortez... I play guitar and spend a bit on that... spearfishing, another fairly expensive activity... we love to go hiking and exploring... the most common activity is social activity with the many friends we have made here.
> All the beer, tequila (me) decent wine (wife), chips and guacamole we can consume
> We did pay cash for our house, so our only other big cost is utilities (electric is EXPENSIVE in the summer with AC running much of the time)
> 
> Our annual average monthly cost is around $3,000. We could easily cut that back to $2,000 and still live quite nicely, especially as we grow older. We will soon have social security (in 6 more years) and our joint benefits will be more than $3,000/month. We are healthy and plan to live to 100, or until Social Security goes broke.
> 
> BD


Thank you for your post. That is very helpful information for many individuals. They will be able to extrapolate upwards or downwards to arrive at a "rough" idea of monthly costs for a life-style they want to live.:clap2:


----------



## FHBOY

Since we are hanging out COL for our lives here, this is the way we have set up to live come February - yes, it is all on paper and ready to go - the trip to Ajijic two weeks ago got that detail done:

We will be long term renting a 3 BR - 3BA house. It is in a middle class mixed ******/Mexican neighborhood, less than five minutes west of Ajijic Centro. It is not a gated community and is an older house, which means better bio-mass environment. We have a carport for one car, [we will will buy], have a maid once a week, [in our entire married lives - 40 years- we have NEVER had a maid], gardener twice a week (why he comes twice a week, I don't know), all utilities including satellite, wi-fi, electric, gas, water - furnished, an enclosed yard for our cats to run free, two levels of terraza, covered patio, and adequate, by no means modern top of the line, kitchen. All in: $900 USD - month. A bit more than we thought, but the other places at other prices were not where we could enjoy living. Yes, we are paying for the convenience of our agent taking care of everything, it means I don't have to (= simplifying my life) - and for us, we will trade a few bucks for that.

Living to us is more than a bottom line decision - yes we are "shed, shed, shed simplify", but the wrong place is still the wrong place, and we will live there 24/7 for the rest of our lives. To sacrifice something else to get what you want is a part of living, so if that is a couple of hundred/month - we'll just do with less of something else - so what.

I was told that for the first couple of months we can expect to use our car more, but after that, walking, buses and taxis will take the place of the car, so that expense will go down.

We expect that with our combined Social Security and a small annuity, we will still have enough left over for a simple life, like we live now. We are not party people, [I hope that changes], restaurants are nice, but I can't see eating in one every night - we both like to cook. Our only vice is travel and art, the former we plan on doing in our new country, the latter we have been there and done that.


----------



## ricopozole

TundraGreen said:


> I think what bothers me about this thread is the underlying implication that the more money you spend, the better your life. Maybe I am just joining the curmudgeon ranks, but I feel like I live my ideal life on an amount that is being referred to here as "getting by", around $10,000 pesos/month.
> 
> I could spend more if I chose to; it would just mean my kids would have a little less when I am gone, but neither I nor the kids are worried about that. And I think my life is better for being unburdened by a car and most the large and small electrical gadgets that we take for granted in the US. I have a stove, refri and computer. Really, what more do you need than those.
> 
> In the interests of full disclosure, the monthly peso amount does not include international travel. I have a son in the US, a daughter in Germany, and a significant other in the US, and I visit all of them a few times a year for brief periods. Those dollar expenses are above the $10K peso/month figure. But for estimating just the cost to live in Mexico. In my opinion, one person can live very well, not just get by, on 10K mxn/month.
> 
> It all depends on your choice of living style, which is why I am always skeptical about the usefulness of the answers when people ask "How much does it cost to live in Mexico?". I suspect this thread, that has gotten into more detail about what you get at various levels of expense, has been more useful to people trying to guess what their expenses will be after a move.


You say clearly what is true. I have lived in Mexico off and on since 1971. For the past 12 years near San Miguel de Allende. I own a house in the campo. For the past few years I spend to live about 15,000 pesos a month, and that includes a serious tobacco habit, and Victoria, a truck, and some part time help, tv, internet, and I also eat. ( These expenses obviously do not include money spent on projects, which if you own will go on and on, as they do anywhere you own.) But the most relaxing and happiest time I had here was six, seven years ago when I had just about no money, lived on about 500 pesos a week. No truck, no fm, and no toilet!. My only advice is to live in Mexico because you want to, love it and hate it, or stay back in the eua and spend your money and time changing that wretched country.


----------



## elchante

Every once in a while, you can fall into a really sweet deal like i did with my current rental. My Canadian landlords have been unable to sell their home up north and they were kind of desperate to have their home in Jocotepec [west end of Lake Chapala] occupied as a security matter. So i guess you might call what i am doing "housesitting," but i do pay them some rent each month. 

For 2700 pesos a month, i get a lovely one and a half bedroom house [i say one half bedroom, because the second bedroom doubles as a storeroom]. The house has a pool and a garden and patio. It is completely furnished, including cookware and dishes. Also included in that 2700MX is phone, WIFI, and satellite TV. Water and electricity are also included in that price. 

In addition to the 2700MX, i pay 500MX a month for a housekeeper for six hours every other week and 450MX a week for a twice weekly gardener/pool guy/handyman. 

i'm not really within walking distance of our local "supermarket" or mercado, so i do use my small Nissan pickup when purchasing food or visiting friends or making trips around the area. i try to combine my trips and usually wind up purchasing gasoline for my 12 gallon tank about every four weeks [more, of course, for longer distance travel]. My yearly full coverage insurance on the 2004 pickup costs me about $380US a year. 

sadly, i smoke and drink too much, but other than that my needs are pretty simple. i do eat out about once a week, but never spend more than $10US for a meal [tax and tip included]. i have a cat, so i do have some food costs for her, as well as the infrequent vet bill. 

Of course, i also have to pay annually for my visa and IMSS health insurance coverage. When i buy clothes, i usually buy them from local consignment shops. 

My entertainment budget is very low. My friends and i do pitch in lunches and play games. i read a lot, but get my books from a restaurant that has a book exchange. In four years here, i have never purchased a new book, and yet i always have something new to read.

Aside from dining out, my food costs are quite low. i purchase locally, eat what's in season, don't eat a lot of meat, and have some fruit trees in the garden, as well as a small vegetable plot. i stay away from the ******-oriented grocery stores in Ajijic and environs and can find almost everything i want in Jocotepec at a lower price. i do have a Costco card and visit that store in Guad maybe once every three months to buy things that satisfy my cravings. 

i live on about $900US a month, and that includes prorating my car insurance, visa, and IMSS. And i live better than i ever did in the US! 

So it can be done!


----------



## jasavak

ricopozole said:


> You say clearly what is true. I have lived in Mexico off and on since 1971. For the past 12 years near San Miguel de Allende. I own a house in the campo. For the past few years I spend to live about 15,000 pesos a month, and that includes a serious tobacco habit, and Victoria, a truck, and some part time help, tv, internet, and I also eat. ( These expenses obviously do not include money spent on projects, which if you own will go on and on, as they do anywhere you own.) But the most relaxing and happiest time I had here was six, seven years ago when I had just about no money, lived on about 500 pesos a week. No truck, no fm, and no toilet!. My only advice is to live in Mexico because you want to, love it and hate it, or stay back in the eua and spend your money and time changing that wretched country.





Everything sounded reasonable until you got to the " No toilet " part .


----------



## Hobo

I currently live in England ,and your 10,950 Pesos, equals £520.00 GBP (British Pounds)....that's what I pay for gas each month....about £110.00 a week, just for my car....Gas (Petrol) here is almost $12.00 U.S. dollars a gallon, so I'd say you're doing pretty good in comparison. 

Forget my rent, cooking gas, electric, water, property tax, phone, internet, etc...do not come to Britain if you're looking for a cheap lifestyle, not even out in the sticks !

Mexico, here I come !


----------



## Isla Verde

Hobo said:


> I currently live in England ,and your 10,950 Pesos, equals £520.00 GBP (British Pounds)....that's what I pay for gas each month....about £110.00 a week, just for my car....Gas (Petrol) here is almost $12.00 U.S. dollars a gallon, so I'd say you're doing pretty good in comparison.
> 
> Forget my rent, cooking gas, electric, water, property tax, phone, internet, etc...do not come to Britain if you're looking for a cheap lifestyle, not even out in the sticks !
> 
> Mexico, here I come !


I hope you're not planning to move to Mexico only because of its relatively inexpensive cost of living.


----------



## Hobo

Isla Verde said:


> I hope you're not planning to move to Mexico only because of its relatively inexpensive cost of living.



No, that is not the reason.

Thanks


----------



## Isla Verde

Hobo said:


> No, that is not the reason.
> 
> Thanks


Glad to hear it. There are lots more interesting reasons than money for choosing to make Mexico your new home!


----------



## Hobo

Isla Verde said:


> Glad to hear it. There are lots more interesting reasons than money for choosing to make Mexico your new home!


I'm glad that you're pleased.

It's not my first major move. I have lived and worked in 28 countries, and been to many more.

After I've made a few posts, then I can build a profile. But as a newbie, I believe I have to write a few posts and then I can say more about myself, no ?

I currently 'Reside' in England, but it is not my 'Home'.......just as 'Writing' is my 'Passion', but it is now how I earn my 'Living'.

I was born in Britain, and hold a passport for the same country, but I do not have an accent..... I only come here to re-group.

Which leads me to ask the question, "If one is born in an apple crate, does that make one an apple?"

Take care now.


----------



## Isla Verde

Hobo said:


> I'm glad that you're pleased.
> 
> It's not my first major move. I have lived and worked in 28 countries, and been to many more.
> 
> After I've made a few posts, then I can build a profile. But as a newbie, I believe I have to write a few posts and then I can say more about myself, no ?
> 
> I currently 'Reside' in England, but it is not my 'Home'.......just as 'Writing' is my 'Passion', but it is now how I earn my 'Living'.
> 
> I was born in Britain, and hold a passport for the same country, but I do not have an accent..... I only come here to re-group.
> 
> Which leads me to ask the question, "If one is born in an apple crate, does that make one an apple?"
> 
> Take care now.


It's not a matter of my being pleased. My post was a caution not to move to Mexico (or anywhere) for solely financial reasons, a sure recipe for ending up in the wrong place.

Wow, you're a real _trotamundos_! I'm both impressed and envious of the globe-trotting life you've led. 

No need to wait till you begin to tell us about yourself. All newbies are welcome to post their autobiographies right away. 

Mmmm, I was born in Philadelphia, but that doesn't make me a Philly, does it? 

Cheers.


----------



## jasavak

Hobo said:


> I currently live in England ,and your 10,950 Pesos, equals £520.00 GBP (British Pounds)....that's what I pay for gas each month....about £110.00 a week, just for my car....Gas (Petrol) here is almost $12.00 U.S. dollars a gallon, so I'd say you're doing pretty good in comparison.
> 
> Forget my rent, cooking gas, electric, water, property tax, phone, internet, etc...do not come to Britain if you're looking for a cheap lifestyle, not even out in the sticks !
> 
> Mexico, here I come !




Wow , the gas has risen that high . I would get an electric car and push it home if the battery died .


----------



## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> It's not a matter of my being pleased. My post was a caution not to move to Mexico (or anywhere) for solely financial reasons, a sure recipe for ending up in the wrong place.
> 
> Wow, you're a real _trotamundos_! I'm both impressed and envious of the globe-trotting life you've led.
> 
> No need to wait till you begin to tell us about yourself. All newbies are welcome to post their autobiographies right away.
> 
> Mmmm, I was born in Philadelphia, but that doesn't make me a Philly, does it?
> 
> Cheers.


I lived in Philly for 12 years in the eighties, my father's family immigrated to Philly in the early 20th century. So, no Isla, it makes neither of us a Philly Phanatic.

BUT>>>>

MsFHBOY was born in Brooklyn, raised in Brooklyn and forever will be a Brooklynite - seems you can take the girl out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the girl (even a 61 year old one).


----------



## ptrichmondmike

FHBOY said:


> MsFHBOY was born in Brooklyn, raised in Brooklyn and forever will be a Brooklynite - seems you can take the girl out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the girl (even a 61 year old one).


Lol...my mom was from Brooklyn, and moved all over the US, but always had to return to Brooklyn. She was devastated when the great old newspaper The Brooklyn Eagle shut down in the mid-50s, and when the Dodgers left for LA, I really think it killed her (she died two years later aged only 47). I hated Brooklyn as a kid, and have only been back once -- to cross the Brooklyn Bridge by foot over to Manhattan. Definitely worth it!


----------



## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> I lived in Philly for 12 years in the eighties, my father's family immigrated to Philly in the early 20th century. So, no Isla, it makes neither of us a Philly Phanatic.
> 
> BUT>>>>
> 
> MsFHBOY was born in Brooklyn, raised in Brooklyn and forever will be a Brooklynite - seems you can take the girl out of Brooklyn, but you can't take the Brooklyn out of the girl (even a 61 year old one).


*You live dangerously FHBoy.*

*It I ever let my wife's age slip, even in the most innocent way, I observe a peace loving, kind, generous soul turn into a ferocious, sword swinging, Danish warrior queen!!! A SITE TO BEHOLD!*


----------



## joelpb

I begin to realize why so many on this board love Mexico. The places they are from
tells it all. The east coast blaaa. Any thing would be better than that. HAHAHA.


----------



## mickisue1

joelpb said:


> I begin to realize why so many on this board love Mexico. The places they are from
> tells it all. The east coast blaaa. Any thing would be better than that. HAHAHA.


Not exactly.

I spent the first 15 months of my life on the east coast, the rest has been in MN. And I'm the same age as MsFH.

I have seen many amazingly beautiful parts of the east coast, and the entire US, FWIW.

But the quality of life and the kindness of the people seems to be on a down cycle. I'd prefer to live in a place where being one's brother's keeper is a societal expectation, not a sign of weakness.


----------



## Isla Verde

joelpb said:


> I begin to realize why so many on this board love Mexico. The places they are from
> tells it all. The east coast blaaa. Any thing would be better than that. HAHAHA.


I didn't leave the East Coast because I didn't like living there. I just like living in Mexico more.


----------



## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> *You live dangerously FHBoy.*
> 
> *It I ever let my wife's age slip, even in the most innocent way, I observe a peace loving, kind, generous soul turn into a ferocious, sword swinging, Danish warrior queen!!! A SITE TO BEHOLD!*


And that is the difference - the date on the calendar is just ink on paper, it is the age you are in your heart and head that counts. Ms FHBOY is proud to be what she is and how she is. 

As to the snarky remark about East Coasters,  we love our part of US, so that is the reason we are nostalgic about it and complain about it (it is like you can criticize your brother, but no one else should criticize him to you) - what do Left Coasters have? Earthquakes, landslides, pollution, Ronald Regan, Lindsay Lohan, and let us not forget those Hollywood Pinko Liberal Leftist Socialist Communist Fascists!  Left Coasters have no history that goes back as far a Brooklyn, except for them of us that moved there. 

:clap2: Look, I have land in Nevada, I'm just waiting for it to become beachfront property!


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## conklinwh

FHBOY, I was OK till you got to history. Actually settlement of what now is the US started via the "Bering Bridge" and the west coast.


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## joelpb

As of now and the last 40 years the left coast or at least a big part of it has become
a place I do not care for. Socieity as a whole has changed for the wourst as far as I
am conceared. People just are not happy anymore. They are just looking for more
and more to make them happy. They just do not know what it is their looking for.

It seems a lot of people have found something here in Mexico and it is not money.

But I know the Mexican people would love to have more money and things.

I fell that Mexicans are a more accepting people. The accept their place in life
more and do so with out causing a lot of trouble. They are able to get by on
less because it is a way of life and they accept it. They do not like being poor
but except it and keep on going. But things are a changing. The young people
are changing the way they think.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> And that is the difference - the date on the calendar is just ink on paper, it is the age you are in your heart and head that counts. Ms FHBOY is proud to be what she is and how she is.
> 
> :clap2: Look, I have land in Nevada, I'm just waiting for it to become beachfront property!


That's the problem. My wife is still in her 20's in her head. But then aren't we all?

True story. A close associate was limping and I could tell his back was killing him. I wanted to know why. He wouldn't tell me. I finally got it out of him.

Sheepishly, he told me that he was working on his roof and decided to jump off the roof rather than come down the ladder. Don't you remember when we did that when we were young? But when you are 60? 
:flypig:


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## FHBOY

*The "Downturn"*

Two previous posters have referenced a change in the US society, a downturn of a type. I wholeheartedly agree with them. Maybe it's my age, maybe it is being a Boomer, a former hippie, a child of the 60's but the US is not what it was. We had a community, it had rules, it had fanatics on both ends of the scale, but there was still a sense that we were all in this together - what I did affected what happened to you - and I was concerned about that. Now in general I find that such a philosophy has given way to a more "self" centered society: "what's in it for me - who cares what it does to you?"

Cynical? Yes, perhaps.

Recently, the US seems to have become a nation of hoarders: we hoard our possessions, we hoard our kids, we put it all behind physical or virtual walls, we collect as much as we can - because for some reason we "need" it and the more we have, the better we feel about ourselves. Somehow it feels as if US'ers have become more afraid of losing things (and rightfully so) so they feel that they must take and hold, acquire, even at the expense of someone else. (eg: executive compensation vs. worker compensation)

There is no virtue in poverty, but the world I seem to remember, the one I am retiring to, was a world where we got our share, we shared what we had more of, and we were content. 

A naive view of the world perhaps? 

But if I want to choose where and how I write the next chapter of my life, I want to do it the way I remember some of the best parts of my life were and unfortunately the USA in 2012 is not it. I say unfortunately because I would have liked to spend the next chapter here - I am proud to be a US citizen - but this is not my place any longer and it makes me sad.


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## joelpb

Well said FHBOY


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## FHBOY

*An Addendum*



joelpb said:


> Well said FHBOY


Not be beat a dead horse, but I re-read my post and while doing it, I remembered and incident right after President Obama was elected that gave me a cause to hope (which was quickly dashed) that the country could be more like I remembered it was. McCain had run (with his VP nominee) just a nasty campaign, and equally so did the Obama/Biden camp. It was one of the nastiest campaigns I could remember. The John McCain of McCain/Feingold, the man who could reach across the aisle, the man who was a reasonable person disappeared during the campaign and I missed him. The reason I had hope was that in his concession speech, there was a re-emergence of that John McCain, the hero that he was, the true America-firster that he was and there was hope.

In the ensuing years, all the hope that this John McCain generated that night has seemed to disappear, and the patriot McCain got swallowed by the machine.

This is not a comment on the politics of the US - I have retired from politics, for many reasons, but the incident sticks in my mind as one of the reasons for leaving. Reasonable people used to be able to disagree and argue and still walk away and meet on other things. I could disagree with you on, let's say the War (choose one) but still we could go out and have a drink or dinner.

A couple of years ago I posted here that I was looking for that kind of world in Mexico, where I could meet people who may not agree with my views on something, that we could sit and talk, discuss, argue and then go have a cup of coffee. What I observed in Ajijic was just that - people sitting and discussing, arguing (not asserting, but making arguments) and then finishing their lunch.

Sorry to be so long winded about this, but there seems to be many layers as to why people choose to become expats, and this is, in my case, one of them.


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## edgeee

please pardon my ignorance, i'm working on it. and if bumping a thread this old is poor form, please tell me so.

first a few personals if i may.
FHBOY, you are so right about that brooklyn thing. and your last two posts could have been written by me, if i wrote that well.
except that i'm no McCain fan, tho my feelings about POTUS paralell yours regarding McCain.
Detailman, you own my heart because it seems you share my mind.

my main reason for wishing to live in Mex. is to escape the hell that is living paycheck to paycheck.
isla, there are more reasons too, but this tops the list. it has become a matter of survival.
(sad but true that a USA vet can't afford his own country, but that's a different story.)

i'm on SSDI to the tune of about $1500/mo USD. using 15/1 ratio, thats about $22,000p/mo.
even if the exchange rate dropped all the way to 12/1 (unlikely, or no?) it would still = $18,000p.
so i'm using 20,000p/mo to estimate my income. 13.33333/1, so far so good.
this thread is an excellent way for me to judge the possibilities.
it seems that other than housing, the costs are standard enough to be accuratly estimated.
electricity is the big ?, but that's part of why i like lakeside area. no extremes in temp.
are two meter houses hard to find, rentals i mean?
i want to start saving some money, so my working ceiling is $700d or about 9500p for rent.
if i could stay lower, even better. i don't need much, but i do want a roomy place with storagre.

so it bothers me a bit when i look on VRBO. as an exercise i searched for just the month of sept., 1-30
i'm thinking prices are high that time of year, especially short term, so i will get a look at the high end of the scale.
(their site really needs a 'sort by' feature.)
it is the unkowns that bother me. does VRBO prices usually include cleaning/gardening?
are they usually rented furnished? also, do most have wifi available, meaning DISH i guess, based on what i have read here.
i need to know if those will be additional costs or no. i know there are no hard and fast rules, but what is typical?
i've seen here that some do, but is it commonly done that way?

my other concern is that i do not get around well, so i sorta need a car.
i will probably have to use taxis and buses instead.
what would be a typical or average cost to rent a taxi for all day in lakeside?
i would rather have my own car, but i can see lots of reasons not to.


i'm just a hick from the sticks, but i've lived in 10 different states. where i come from that makes me a 'lost cause'.
what they don't know is that i have a wandering soul, an inquisitive mind and a bad back.
i never sweat the small stuff, but i have been known to fixate on it if it's interesting.

enough, i know, enough already. is it mas manana, or manana mas?
buenas noches


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## TundraGreen

edgeee said:


> ...
> electricity is the big ?, but that's part of why i like lakeside area. no extremes in temp.
> are two meter houses hard to find, rentals i mean?
> i want to start saving some money, so my working ceiling is $700d or about 9500p for rent.
> if i could stay lower, even better. i don't need much, but i do want a roomy place with storagre.
> 
> so it bothers me a bit when i look on VRBO. as an exercise i searched for just the month of sept., 1-30
> i'm thinking prices are high that time of year, especially short term, so i will get a look at the high end of the scale.
> (their site really needs a 'sort by' feature.)
> it is the unkowns that bother me. does VRBO prices usually include cleaning/gardening?
> are they usually rented furnished? also, do most have wifi available, meaning DISH i guess, based on what i have read here.
> i need to know if those will be additional costs or no. i know there are no hard and fast rules, but what is typical?
> i've seen here that some do, but is it commonly done that way?
> 
> my other concern is that i do not get around well, so i sorta need a car.
> i will probably have to use taxis and buses instead.
> what would be a typical or average cost to rent a taxi for all day in lakeside?
> i would rather have my own car, but i can see lots of reasons not to.
> ...


Are you sure you want to live near Lake Chapala. Given your concerns about cost and transportation, a city might be a better choice. I have many friends who rent in Guadalajara. The highest rent any of them have had is $4200 pesos/month. One of the rentals at this rate was a spacious two bedroom apartment, the other is a three bedroom two bath house. 

Public transportation near Lake Chapala is limited. In Guadalajara, there are hundreds of bus routes. If you live in Centro, you are within a few minutes walk of bus lines going pretty much everywhere, including to Lake Chapala. The buses run every few minutes. And the cost is $3 pesos/ride if you are over 60 and have a credencial. The credencial might not be available to people on a tourist permit, in which case the cost is $6 pesos/ride. On any major street a taxi goes by every 30 seconds, if that is your preference. Taxis cost from $30 pesos for a short ride up to a couple of hundred pesos to places like the airport (but there is bus service to the airport as well).

Finally, you mentioned finding a place with two electrical meters. I have never seen such a thing. I have heard it discussed here. My question is why would someone want to do this? The electrical rates are progressive to discourage excessive electrical use. If you are on a limited budget, it is easy to stay within the lower rates. It is particularly easy for one person. Even with three people house sitting for me last month, they did not get near the higher electricity rates. The climate is mild and there is no need for heating or cooling. If you can afford it and want to own a lot of energy consuming appliances, then, in my humble opinion, you should be willing to pay for it.

PS I use Guadalajara as an example because I am most familiar with it. Some of the same advantages will apply in other cities, although Guadalajara might be unique in its combination of size and climate. Mexico City has excellent transportation as well, but it is colder and might require heating at times. Other cities are smaller and have less convenient public transportation.


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## FHBOY

TundraGreen said:


> Are you sure you want to live near Lake Chapala. Given your concerns about cost and transportation, a city might be a better choice. ...smaller and have less convenient public transportation.


Edgee, TG makes very good practical points, but I have a more basic question. What do you envision/imagine the next chapter of your life should be? Take all practicality out of the question and answer. Would you like to spend the next chapter in a vibrant city or in a small town or even on the moon [I jest]? 

My point is that when you have the opportunity, and your fiscal qualifications certainly give you options in Mexico, it is time to step back and say, "Hey, this is what I want to do. I may not know how to do it, but I want this as my ideal." Then, find your way to it.

This comes from personal experience. If I had to use only practicality as a guide for the decisions I have made perhaps my life would have been more "successful"? But like Frank, I did it my way...deciding the BHAGs (Big Hairy Audacious Goals) and then looking for a way to obtain them.

So, mi amigo, before practicality sets in totally, sit back, close your eyes and dream of the way you want to live...we all deserve to dream, we have only one life, it is not a rehearsal.


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## conklinwh

VRBO is mostly for tourists and my experience is that rarely what you could find in person if you went on a short-term to a reasonable hotel.
I do thing that TG makes a good point in that a more centralized environment where things concentrated might be a good option. I hate to keep being the voice in the wilderness among all the Lakeside OP's but San Miguel is a very centralized yet reasonably sized town of about 65K(some 12K expats). BTW, 65K is city and doesn't include 65K plus surrounding the city in what equivalent to San Miguel county.


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## mickisue1

I absolutely agree on the dreams first, practicality second.

I even gave a speech on that subject for my Toastmasters group. I called it "Once Upon a Time".

Think about every fairy tale you have even read/had read to you/seen as a movie. There's always a dream, right? Find Prince Charming. Be a hero, and win the hand of the Princess.

The dream comes first, then the hero/heroine sets goals to get there. Cinderella makes the time to make a gown, so she will be able to attend the ball. The Brave Little Tailor sets out to prove that he really IS brave, and using only his wits, becomes king.

Ed, it's clear that you have a more than adequate serving of wits. Use them to weave your dream life in MX, and use the wits to get there.

It may end up that Lakeside IS your dream location. But MX is a big country, with a lot of locations that MIGHT work for you and your dream. 

Your biggest challenge isn't to find out how to afford to live in one particular area. It's to find which particular area suits you the best, because there are more than affordable places all over MX.


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## tepetapan

"....Finnally, you mentioned finding a place with two electrical meters. I have never seen such a thing. I have heard it discussed here. My question is why would someone want to do this?nergy consuming appliances, then, in my humble opinion, you should be willing to pay for it......."
This has been covered here and other forums. Lots of people claim to know things about this outdated and illegal idea. A single family residence can not legally split their circuts and use multiple meters. Go to any CFE office and they will explain the rules to you. On the other hand, if you are doing the two meter thing on a single family dwelling, don´t go until you are prepared to pay all the back usage and fines.


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## FHBOY

*Lakeside Chamber of Commerce*

A BIT OFF TOPIC - BUT WORTHY OF COMMENT

This Forum can sound a bit like the Lakeside C of C. There are a preponderance of people from the area that post. People are proud of the decisions they make. I would like to see more people from places other than Lakeside, we have a few from SMA, DF and Guad, Baja Sur (I've left out others, lo siento) but Mexico is a big country, why can't we attract more people? 

Yes, I am moving to Ajijic, and only found Ajijic because of the Forum,

:focus:

Edgee - specifically - the best piece of advice I got here was to "widen my horizons" when looking to move. I was set on PV, loved it, until someone here said widen your horizons. So I pass that little piece of advice on to you: look for blogs from other towns, cities and get input. Don't choose Ajijic/Chapala because we who have love it...find your niche.


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## edgeee

thanks everyone. (almost) last things first:
i have not ruled out anything, so SMA is still an option, but i don't know much about it yet.
for now it's about getting a good view of the forest before i stroll among the trees.
i do want a large expat contingent so they cann assist me in adjusting. there's gonna be a lot of that.
VRBO does list a nice place (it seems) in Ajijic that sounds perfect to stay for a month while i look around.
i do realize that some variation on this theme is the way to go. Chapala also has a similar listing, tho more $$.
names are not given, oddly enough, but i'll put the listing # here in case someone wishes to look at them.
they are each central in their towns. Ajijic = #298775 ; Chapala = #407709.
if a local could look at this and advise, that would be excellente.

as for TG's concerns, i've had enough of big cities. i want to visit them now an then, but not live there.
GDL does seem to be a place i want to be close to, but not in.
i lived in Las Vegas, NV for over 15 years and drove a taxi there.
from my last home there i could look up and see the ceiling of the Playboy Club atop the Palms hotel.
it does seem a bit silly that one person might need a two-meter home, and it may be,
but i will still continue my efforts to supliment my income by working online, and i do like my appliances.
i doubt i'll need 2 meters, but if - all else being equal - it came down to that choice,
i'd rather have two and only need one, than the other way around. probably a needless concern.
being "willing to pay for it" is one thing, being able to is quite another.

FHBOY, you raise the most critical ? IMO: where am i going with this and what do i want?
the moon's low gravity would be nice, but i hate to think what the long distance rates would be.
as success stories go mine would be a sad tale in the eyes of others, but i don't see it that way.
i've never had much $$ but i have always lived life on my own terms. i still do.
if i were willing to adopt the morals i don't believe in that would mean more $$,
but my conscience doesn't have overdraft protection.

since i am 60 now, i want to make my remaining years as pleasant as i can. poor does not = pleasant.
in my situation my income is not likely to go up, but my costs certainly will, given the economic crisis.
every month i wonder if this will be the last one when i can still pay my rent.
i'm one auto repair away from a crisis.
that mental and emotional strain is killing me from the inside out and it must stop.

when i was younger i could deal with being homeless, i did for nearly six months when i moved to Vegas,
but i don't want to try it again. the rough roads i've ridden have taken out some of the bounce in my stride.
my dad is 81 and still works as a road commissioner (elected position!) where he lives, 
operating heavy equipment every day. if i am to be blessed with even 5-10 more years,
i want to enjoy them, not measure the days by my anxiety level.

but, being a greedy selfish and wasteful human, i want more than just that.

"Yeah. That's it. More. That's right! I want more!" -- Johnny Rocco, _Key Largo_. (one of my few well-done mimics.)

i want to settle down. my wanderings have wound me down. i'm looking for my last town.
i want to be around people who have lived and still do.
by this i mean those who agree with everything i say and always do what they are told without dissent.
no wait, that was a prior existense. (no dummy, it was a dream you had.)

i really mean people who's experience has taught them tolerance for others.
people who have stories to tell and want to tell them.
people who understand that thinking one is 'smart' is a dumb idea.
people who believe 'character' is our behavior when no one is watching.
people who know that nature in all it's aspects is our oldest and best teacher.
people who know that even in our own homes we are guests on Mother Earth.
people who enjoy their thoughts and emotions more than their possessions.
people who can differentiate between such esoteric ideas as facts, opinions, feelings and just plain old BS.
(good luck on that one.)
(i know, i just created a new thread...)

i'm looking to join up with people who have reached the same place where my mind resides, which is this.
i am learning to love living. i am late to the party, but i'm wearing dancing shoes.

i happen to be writing a book on that very topic, so Mexico seems like the right place to survive,
and lakeside - or something like it - looks like it would be a good place to try.
i seldom predict the future, but i do believe in guiding it.
in a place such as lakeside, the expats who want to be in a book may be few,
but oh, the stories they could tell!

of course i also want to be able to watch all the games my "World Champion St. Louis Cardinals" play.

"Gee edgeee, you don't want much do you?" (ed. note: is this snarky?)

and that's just the basics of a very complex conundrum.

sorry this is so long, but intelligent questions do that to me.

i know those people all live on another planent,
but their descendants living here have the DNA that acts like a magnet, drawing them together,
attracted to intelligence and compassion. of course i watch _Ancient Aliens_, don't you?

a last thought. i wonder if something like a vespa scooter would solve my transp. problem.
are they rare or common, or in between?


----------



## sunnyvmx

I generally hesitate to post about Catemaco because I sound like an advertisement instead of just the happy resident that I am. Low cost of living without ****** pricing, American expats for neighbors, beautiful tropical state, mild climate and friendly Mexican people in town. Taxis and buses are outside the gate for a trip to town or to the next city with bigger stores and better medical facilities. Just ask me, I survived a burst appendix this year in a first class hospital thanks to one of the best doctors in the country. Great seafood restaurants and lots to see and do on or around the lake. I would feel perfectly safe and comfortable walking home late and I have several times. For big city, Veracruz is a 3 1/2 hr. bus ride and the coast is 30 minutes from my door. With our elevation we have cooler temps and less humidity than the coast and the winter temps never get below 58 degrees and that's rare. I believe I used the A/C for three days this year when temps got to 90. So yes there is something for everyone in Mexico and one persons paradise may or not be anothers.


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## FHBOY

sunnyvmx said:


> I generally hesitate to post about Catemaco because I sound like an advertisement instead of just the happy resident that I am. Low cost of living without ****** pricing, American expats for neighbors, beautiful tropical state, mild climate and friendly Mexican people in town. Taxis and buses are outside the gate for a trip to town or to the next city with bigger stores and better medical facilities. Just ask me, I survived a burst appendix this year in a first class hospital thanks to one of the best doctors in the country. Great seafood restaurants and lots to see and do on or around the lake. I would feel perfectly safe and comfortable walking home late and I have several times. For big city, Veracruz is a 3 1/2 hr. bus ride and the coast is 30 minutes from my door. With our elevation we have cooler temps and less humidity than the coast and the winter temps never get below 58 degrees and that's rare. I believe I used the A/C for three days this year when temps got to 90. So yes there is something for everyone in Mexico and one persons paradise may or not be anothers.


Wow, looks like a great place. Will definitely have to visit.


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## sunnyvmx

Oh yes, I have recently purchased a scooter and I love it. Riding in Catemaco and the outlying areas is a pleasure. Everyone looks out for that crazy old gringa on the blue Italika. I get lots of smiles and they wave as I go by. It makes trips to plant nurseries, restaurants and grocery shopping a breeze or just a happy ride around the lake to get me out of my house. It was the best 13,000 pesos I have spent and I highly recommend it.


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## Quetza

I've visited Catemaco just once and I remember it as a very beautiful place, you've made me want to go there again! But I didn't know there were a lot of expats living there... actually, I'm beginning to notice that I barely know anything about the expats in Mexico. hwell:


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## bimini6

For 3 years two of us lived on $825 US and had a maid, ate out some etc. but we did not have rent as we own our house. After 3 years our income went up as well as our spending. We never suffered, but we curbed our going out etc. If you stick to fresh fruits and vegetables and less meat, you can save a lot of money spent on groceries. Big Box stores cost a lot more. Market shopping for me was fun and the best option on my original budget.


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## sunnyvmx

No there is only a handful of expats in the town. There are more gathered in the villas of Tepetapan and RV park. Catemaco being on the East coast is the playground of the Mexicans. It was rumored that the wealthy let the cartels know it was their vacation town and to leave it alone. I don't know if that is true, but it's very peaceful and certainly because the tourists are Mexican it has never affected the people here like it has on the West coast and the Yucatan. We are a curiosity for sure, but the people are very welcoming, helpful and friendly. Always ready to laugh with me in my struggle to speak spanish and eager to help me with whatever new project I'm involved in. We have a favorite taxi driver we call for sightseeing trips to waterfalls, the beaches, Veracruz for special Doctors or Coatzacoalcos to renew our visas and from here I can take a bus to anywhere and I have. One special restaurant I call "The Ponds" because it's set on a river that feeds many large fish ponds and a swimming pool. You order your fish cooked in one of several ways and then you can watch your fish being caught in the pond and specify the size you prefer. It's cleaned, cooked to perfection and served in their lovely patio restaurant. Another favorite I call the "Treehouse Restaurant". It's on the lake and looks like it's right out of Robinson Crusoe's story. The fish, shrimp or steak is cooked on an open fire and served with fresh grilled fruits and veggies. We also have the best seafood cocktele in Mexico. Just ask playaboy from Playa del Carmen.


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## joaquinx

tepetapan said:


> "....Finnally, you mentioned finding a place with two electrical meters. I have never seen such a thing. I have heard it discussed here. My question is why would someone want to do this?nergy consuming appliances, then, in my humble opinion, you should be willing to pay for it......."
> This has been covered here and other forums. Lots of people claim to know things about this outdated and illegal idea. A single family residence can not legally split their circuts and use multiple meters. Go to any CFE office and they will explain the rules to you. On the other hand, if you are doing the two meter thing on a single family dwelling, don´t go until you are prepared to pay all the back usage and fines.


I've heard of doing this, but I haven't seen too many houses that have done it. The owner would get a second meter to run electricity to a room or an apartment that is attached to the house and never rented. In this was the owner can use the second meter to run some appliances. What this does is spliting the cost of the electricity and prevents the usage to go over the fracturación of Básico to Intermedio, and Excedente.


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## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> I've heard of doing this, but I haven't seen too many houses that have done it. The owner would get a second meter to run electricity to a room or an apartment that is attached to the house and never rented. In this was the owner can use the second meter to run some appliances. What this does is spliting the cost of the electricity and prevents the usage to go over the fracturación of Básico to Intermedio, and Excedente.


If you have two families living in the space, then two meters seems perfectly reasonable. If you are just doing it to save money on your electric bill, then I have to ask if you would consider only paying for half of the things you take home from a store. It seems the same to me, both are a form of theft. 
(By "you", of course, I am referring to people in general, not anyone in particular.)


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## edgeee

i'm real sorry i even mentioned 2 meters. forget i ever said it.
as i said at the time, "probably a needless concern".
one reason my posts are long is because i try to be thorough.
i'm sorry, ok?


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## bimini6

If you live in Mexico and pay the big prices when you go over basico electricity, you will understand the two meter thing. We have friends that paid over $500 US a month for electricity and those rates do not go down when your usage goes down, you stay at that rate for one full year from the time you went back down to basico, so usually more than a year. It is not a pretty site when you are living on a fixed income or a tight budget. It is hardly liveable if you are on the coast in the summer to do without any A/C as the humidity is so high.


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## Isla Verde

bimini6 said:


> If you live in Mexico and pay the big prices when you go over basico electricity, you will understand the two meter thing. We have friends that paid over $500 US a month for electricity and those rates do not go down when your usage goes down, you stay at that rate for one full year from the time you went back down to basico, so usually more than a year. It is not a pretty site when you are living on a fixed income or a tight budget. It is hardly liveable if you are on the coast in the summer to do without any A/C as the humidity is so high.


If someone on a fixed income moves to Mexico and wants to live on the coast, then they should realize that their electricity bills are going to be very high and pay the proper charges, not cheat by having two meters.


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## La Osita

And besides, it's just not good living. I read so much here about folks who move to Mexico to live a simpler and kinder life. Indulgent use of electricity, which is so commonplace in the US, without thought for the strain it puts on our environment is just not living well. One of the true joys of living in Mexico has been leaving the American 'lifestyle' behind. Spend more time outdoors, shut off the television, take a walk with friends... watch the stars at night. It can truly be much more illuminating.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> If someone on a fixed income moves to Mexico and wants to live on the coast, then they should realize that their electricity bills are going to be very high and pay the proper charges, not cheat by having two meters.


I've read posts on other forums where persons have two meters. It's not considered cheating, as far as I know. They often connect air conditioning to one meter and other appliances to the other. CFE knows and approves of this, from what I understand ... and if so I wouldn't consider it "cheating." Different strokes for different folks.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> I've read posts on other forums where persons have two meters. It's not considered cheating, as far as I know. They often connect air conditioning to one meter and other appliances to the other. CFE knows and approves of this, from what I understand ... and if so I wouldn't consider it "cheating." Different strokes for different folks.


Lots of people in Mexico do not follow the rules. Much of the economy is off the books and untaxed. The drug cartels thrive because of corruption and graft at all levels of government. Businesses succeed through bribery and connections rather than by being competent and competitive. These are part of the reason that Mexico is still a developing country rather than a full member of the developed world. So, the question for someone living here is: Do we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution? I don't buy the argument that "Everyone does it so it must be okay."


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## La Osita

Longford said:


> I've read posts on other forums where persons have two meters. It's not considered cheating, as far as I know. They often connect air conditioning to one meter and other appliances to the other. CFE knows and approves of this, from what I understand ... and if so I wouldn't consider it "cheating." Different strokes for different folks.



You might want to check into that further. As far as I know, it is 'cheating' to have two meters on one dwelling. When individuals do this, the sole purpose is to avoid having to pay the higher fee when larger amounts of electricity are being used. There is another thread somewhere here not too many months ago that went into detail on the subject. I'll see if I can find it.

It's comfortably possible to run a home on a 20amp fuse. We run two houses on one 20amp fuse and haven't blown it yet. Our bill for a two month period is 190 pesos, give or take a couple pesos.


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## FHBOY

itnavell said:


> You might want to check into that further. As far as I know, it is 'cheating' to have two meters on one dwelling. When individuals do this, the sole purpose is to avoid having to pay the higher fee when larger amounts of electricity are being used. There is another thread somewhere here not too many months ago that went into detail on the subject. I'll see if I can find it.
> 
> It's comfortably possible to run a home on a 20amp fuse. We run two houses on one 20amp fuse and haven't blown it yet. Our bill for a two month period is 190 pesos, give or take a couple pesos.


I, too, seem to remember a discussion on this relating specifically to swimming pools, hot tubs, etc.


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> I don't buy the argument that "Everyone does it so it must be okay."


That's not what I've said. "Everyone else does it ... " If you're saying you've investigated this and have been told by CFE that having two meters in a home violates the regulations/rules of CFE then I say "I believe you." No reason not to. But that what you're saying? 

I know about how corrupt Mexicans are, generally. It's not just the cartels, but tens of millions of Mexicans who benefit from either being corrupt themselves or who have a "breadwinner" in the family who is. It runs through the fabric of the nation. These have been my observations.


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## FHBOY

itnavell said:


> And besides, it's just not good living. I read so much here about folks who move to Mexico to live a simpler and kinder life. Indulgent use of electricity, which is so commonplace in the US, without thought for the strain it puts on our environment is just not living well. One of the true joys of living in Mexico has been leaving the American 'lifestyle' behind. Spend more time outdoors, shut off the television, take a walk with friends... watch the stars at night. It can truly be much more illuminating.


Yes, one moves to change lifestyle in many cases. I am in total agreement with what you say. But, I don't think we are all going to give up all those things we have grown accustomed to. Again, having "stuff" if you want it does mean having to use it all the time or as much as we did before moving.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> That's not what I've said. "Everyone else does it ... " If you're saying you've investigated this and have been told by CFE that having two meters in a home violates the regulations/rules of CFE then I say "I believe you." No reason not to. But that what you're saying?
> 
> I know about how corrupt Mexicans are, generally. It's not just the cartels, but tens of millions of Mexicans who benefit from either being corrupt themselves or who have a "breadwinner" in the family who is. It runs through the fabric of the nation. These have been my observations.


I have not investigated the rules. However, it makes no sense to me. Why have a progressive rate structure that penalizes heavy users of electricity if it is perfectly legal to have more than one meter.


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## joaquinx

Longford said:


> That's not what I've said. "Everyone else does it ... " If you're saying you've investigated this and have been told by CFE that having two meters in a home violates the regulations/rules of CFE then I say "I believe you." No reason not to. But that what you're saying?
> 
> I know about how corrupt Mexicans are, generally. It's not just the cartels, but tens of millions of Mexicans who benefit from either being corrupt themselves or who have a "breadwinner" in the family who is. It runs through the fabric of the nation. These have been my observations.


Is Chicago calling the kettle black?


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## FHBOY

Longford said:


> It runs through the fabric of the nation. These have been my observations.


As I am not yet a Mexican resident I could not make the statement you did. My opinions/observations of Mexican society are from reading and news, not first hand experience. When I have lived there for several years, and write from there, then I would be able to better report my observations. For me to do so now is presumptuous. Oh, BTW, as based on another thread, does the everybody is doing it excuse make it right? My mirror is a better judge of that, when I have to look at myself.


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## La Osita

FHBOY said:


> Yes, one moves to change lifestyle in many cases. I am in total agreement with what you say. But, I don't think we are all going to give up all those things we have grown accustomed to. Again, having "stuff" if you want it does mean having to use it all the time or as much as we did before moving.


Exactly. I still indulge myself on my laptop!! 

But I do use far less electricity than I did in the US. A candle in the evening can be muy romantico!!:kiss:


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## FHBOY

itnavell said:


> Exactly. I still indulge myself on my laptop!!
> 
> But I do use far less electricity than I did in the US. A candle in the evening can be muy romantico!!:kiss:


Why not the light from your laptop - no air pollution


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## tepetapan

Longford said:


> I've read posts on other forums where persons have two meters. It's not considered cheating, as far as I know. They often connect air conditioning to one meter and other appliances to the other. CFE knows and approves of this, from what I understand ... and if so I wouldn't consider it "cheating." Different strokes for different folks.


 CFE considers this practice fraud. Once again, ask at any CFE office, they will explain the rules. The electrican who sold the dual meter thing claiming it will save you money will not be liable for anything. The back fees and fines could easily be over 100,000 pesos to the person who carries the contract with CFE.


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## mickisue1

This question comes up in reference to all sorts of different behaviors. Here, it's using two electric meters so as to qualify for the rates afforded people who use little electricity, somewhere else it may be in reference to taking home office supplies for personal use.

It all comes down to this, in my mind: someone will pay for it, and that someone may be you. If your clandestine use of electricity is contributing to the need to burn higher levels of fossil fuels to generate it, or to build hugely expensive new plants, the ultimate cost will be borne by those who must breathe the air, and pay for the cost of the new plants.

The good news, in this particular case, is that we all know, going in, what the rules are. We know that if we are not careful in the use of electricity, our rates will rise, and could rise a lot.

That may mean educating ourselves. How much electricity does a laptop consume, VS a desktop? How about an 18 cu ft refrigerator VS a 26 cu ft? Will we need to run A/C in THIS location more, or THAT one?

Life is choices. One can choose to take the high road, and make his or her decisions based on the best combination of ethics and knowledge, or one can claim "I didn't know" or HE does it, too!"

It's always a choice.


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## Guest

edgeee said:


> i'm real sorry i even mentioned 2 meters. forget i ever said it.
> as i said at the time, "probably a needless concern".
> one reason my posts are long is because i try to be thorough.
> i'm sorry, ok?


Folks, some of you are trying to play in a MX ballpark but want to play by US rules. Part of being the visitor is getting to know the local rules of the game. It's not cheating, it's not "corruption", it's by the local rules. The "rules" here in MX are not always written down in a nice neat little book. (and NO, I'm not referring to CFE)

edgee, you're looking in the wrong places for a rental. Some folks want caviar dreams and champagne wishes, others want a simple life. If you're looking to escape to a simpler, bachelor life, and as you say "hate living paycheck to paycheck", then why are you looking at high-priced housing? For you, electricity shouldn't be a big concern either, it will most likely run less than $20 a month if you use your head. Get a fan, and skip the A/C or a pool, and you'll be fine. Chapala isn't Vegas. If you don't want to clean your own home, a rent-a-maid will probably cost less than US$25 a day to do it for you. 

Here's some rentals in the area I found in 5 minutes online, with photos:

Here is one furnished rental in Ajijic for MX$3500/mo plus expenses (don't worry, they have a description in English too):

• casa en Ajijic Jalisco a 1 cuadra del lago • - centro ajijic • Chapala •

Here's an unfurnished house in Chapala for MX$2600 /month:
• RENTO CASA MUY BIEN UBICADA EN CHAPALA JALISCO • • Chapala •

Another 1 bdrm furnished place for MX$3500/mo between Chapala & Ajijic:
VIVE DE DESCANSO, Departamento en Chapala, muy comodo !!! en Chapala - Casas y Departamentos en Renta en Chapala - Vivastreet

Here's another furnished house in a complex with a pool in Chapala for MX$6500/month:
Casa amueblada chapala jalisco - Trovit Casas

If you're coming to MX on a one-way ticket, stay somewhere (like the posada you mentioned) for a week, find a rental that's good for you, get a 6 month lease and move in. If you find that it isn't what you had in mind, or have a horrible landlord then you have 6 months to find another place to live. You would also have 6 months to get on an autobus and take trips to San Miguel de Allende or other places for about US$30 to investigate. If your Spanish isn't great, find someone locally to help you. Good luck.


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## Longford

On the subject of Catemaco, here's a link to a few of the photos I've taken there (5 years ago):

Photos of Catemaco


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## FHBOY

Longford said:


> On the subject of Catemaco, here's a link to a few of the photos I've taken there (5 years ago):
> 
> Photos of Catemaco


I mentioned Catemaco to SWMBO as a place to visit. She said that's in Veracruz, right? Yes. She said isn't Veracruz someplace you don't go because it is dangerous.

Again the question - to the best of anyone's knowledge - what is the real story about Veracruz por lo general and Catemaco in general - security wise?


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## edgeee

i am the newbie here so i apologize for being disruptive.
(before i forget, thank you GringoCArlos for those links. haven't been there yet but i will.)
and i wish to respond to your comments, of:

"edgee, you're looking in the wrong places for a rental. Some folks want caviar dreams and champagne wishes, 
others want a simple life. If you're looking to escape to a simpler, bachelor life, and as you say "hate living paycheck to paycheck", 
then why are you looking at high-priced housing? For you, electricity shouldn't be a big concern either, 
it will most likely run less than $20 a month if you use your head. 
Get a fan, and skip the A/C or a pool, and you'll be fine. Chapala isn't Vegas. 
If you don't want to clean your own home, a rent-a-maid will probably cost less than US$25 a day to do it for you."

caviar is disgusting. i'm only looking at 'high-priced' housing because so far, it's all i've found. 
i think your links will lead me to the path i'm looking for.
i do try to use my head. at the VA, they sometimes ask if i am carrying any concealed weapons.
i just can't resist the urge to say "only between my ears." so i can watch their expression change.
they always smile, it never fails. of course i'm smiling when i say it.
elec. costs, have gone from a minor concern to something i would pay extra for to make it go away.
as for Chapala not being Vegas, i'm sure it isn't. i've been 'leaving Las Vegas' for about 5 years.

as for cleaning, that was part of the original thrust.
i read a lot. on this forum, i found one thread regarding the kind of renumeration an expat should give to locals upon returning to the US,
or moving elsewhere in Mex. this made me aware that included v. added extras is worthy of consideration.
it made me want it to be included in the rent to simplify things. so i asked if it was. 
of course i realize it's more complicated than that, but i'm still in the gathering data phase.

but believe this, if i could erase every reference to '2 meters' from this thread, i would.
i'm trying to stick to the original intent.
'i'm sorry' is one thing, *I'M REALLY SORRY!* is another.

i won't pose the same questions again here, they are listed above, but i want to ask one more.

is anyone willing to go back to the main topic?

Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect.
Steven Wright (1955 - )

and finally, google has it's limits too, so this may not be exactly what i mean, but it's close.

Les deseo una vida feliz


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## Longford

edgeee said:


> i won't pose the same questions again here, they are listed above, but i want to ask one more.
> 
> is anyone willing to go back to the main topic?


:focus:


This was the main topic:



> So let's bring it to a consesus:
> How much does one need to
> survive in Mexico: ?
> live in Mexico: ?
> live well in Mexico: ?


It seems to me that these are the things we've been discussing, since these questions were raised. Discussions will frequently branch-out in response to responses given. That's "normal behavior" on web forums.

My thought is that if you think the discussion has veered off-course, why not respond to the questions asked by dongringo, to get us back on the path of righteousness?


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## edgeee

i could not intelligently respond to questions that i'm asking myself.
how to survive/live/live well is fine by me. i thought that was what i'm doing.
please bear in mind, i'm only asking questions. i probably ask too many, but i try to keep them relevant.
i just want people to forget about the '2 meter issue'.
then the reeel questions, can be addressed.


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## Longford

edgeee said:


> i could not intelligently respond to questions that i'm asking myself.
> how to survive/live/live well is fine by me. i thought that was what i'm doing.
> please bear in mind, i'm only asking questions. i probably ask too many, but i try to keep them relevant.
> i just want people to forget about the '2 meter issue'.
> then the reeel questions, can be addressed.


Just because you're disinterested in the flow of the conversation is no reason to suggest others should stop talking. That would be rude. And I think all of us reading your comments understand you're not that type of person.  

What you may wish to focus on, however, is posting your questions, if they don't pertain to the discussion(s) at hand, independently. Separate discussions. That's what dongringo did in this discussion. 

Each of the discussions you'd initiate could then be responded to more or less in the context you outline by the manner in which you phrase your questions.

Remember, though, that discussions frequently turn in different directions ... and those diversions often result in meaningful, informative conversations. The only way for us to stop that (diversion) is to start our own forums, and then we can each be "King of the Hill"!


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## sunnyvmx

I can only speak personally from my five years here in Catemaco. I have made 5 or 6 trips by RV up the coast road to Houston and back. I do not hesitate to bus to Veracruz for a weekend or to Coatzacoalcos for my visa renewal. We have visitors in RVs going back and forth and new residents arriving and returning many times a year. All have reported quiet uneventful trips. My ex husband flew into Veracruz twice this year and traveled by bus to Catemaco to nurse me after both surgeries.
He spent the night in Veracruz each time and said it was fine. The Mexican tourists flock here for the holidays, the powerboat race weekend and summer vacation. The military has a presence in town, but are not stationed at restaurants or banks so we are not reminded of the cartel violence everyday. Every now and then they are checking cars on the road. I'm from Miami so I know the difference and can feel it. Nothing could make me live there again and live with that fear.


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## mickisue1

sunnyvmx said:


> I can only speak personally from my five years here in Catemaco. I have made 5 or 6 trips by RV up the coast road to Houston and back. I do not hesitate to bus to Veracruz for a weekend or to Coatzacoalcos for my visa renewal. We have visitors in RVs going back and forth and new residents arriving and returning many times a year. All have reported quiet uneventful trips. My ex husband flew into Veracruz twice this year and traveled by bus to Catemaco to nurse me after both surgeries.
> He spent the night in Veracruz each time and said it was fine. The Mexican tourists flock here for the holidays, the powerboat race weekend and summer vacation. The military has a presence in town, but are not stationed at restaurants or banks so we are not reminded of the cartel violence everyday. Every now and then they are checking cars on the road. I'm from Miami so I know the difference and can feel it. Nothing could make me live there again and live with that fear.


Ed, FWIW, I think that it's good that you asked the question, because it brought up the variety of issues that surround what to you was a cut and dried question.

Contemplating an illegal activity isn't illegal. Even Jimmy Carter lusted in his heart, if you remember.  It's acting on that contemplation that can cause you all manner of headaches, should you get caught.

Or, all manner of heartaches, should you get poked by a spiky conscience.


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## FHBOY

Edgee: You have been a good addition to this Forum. Do not fear wandering into discussions and maybe even diverting them a bit to find the info you are looking for. There are many, many first time questions that nagged at all of us as we contemplated this adventure and I have found that none of what you have asked is any less than that.

You will, as you have discovered, get some responses that surprise or even vex you, accept it that it is like sitting around the dining room table with the opinionated uncle that every listens to and then decides whether he had anything of relevance to say to them.

But...there always is a but...try hard to stay within the confines generally of Mexico - Expat Experience - the general topic of the thread, three good rules. 

I found you apologizing in a few posts back, there is no need for apologies if the statement/question/opinion is within the scope of the tread, and in concert with the rules of the Forum. Like your parents told you, "There is no such thing as a stupid question."

Now:
:focus:


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## edgeee

*Cost Of Living...*

while following various paths of inquiry, i found a site that is helpul in a general way.

i found this site thru the classified section in this forum, and they do want $ for the services they offer,
however this page - and others - is viewable for free, no registering needed either.

this link is for the page that lists all Geo. areas reviewed.
over 100 countries are listed, so chances are you can also look at the page for your home.
it also lists over 100 locations within the US.

this link shows the Cost Of Living in Mexico compared to other areas and countries of the world.

it applies to Mexico in general, so the info has it's limits, but still useful to me.
a certain amount of guesswork is involved, since it makes no assumptions of one's current residence.

very general, as stated, but it would be hard to do it any other way.

i would find it interesting to know how expats in Mexico feel about what is stated,
and how particular regions compare to the overall big picture.
i'm not interested in the tourist areas, but others will be i'm sure.

it seems that one should plan on taking along any nice clothing one owns,
as it is supposedly expensive to replace. makes sense to me.
if nothing else, at least it will help me to decide what i need to take on my first visit.

i hope you find it useful. if this in any way violates the rules, i apologize,
but i thought since the forum classifieds is where i found it, it should be OK.


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## mickisue1

edgeee said:


> while following various paths of inquiry, i found a site that is helpul in a general way.
> 
> i found this site thru the classified section in this forum, and they do want $ for the services they offer,
> however this page - and others - is viewable for free, no registering needed either.
> 
> this link is for the page that lists all Geo. areas reviewed.
> over 100 countries are listed, so chances are you can also look at the page for your home.
> it also lists over 100 locations within the US.
> 
> this link shows the Cost Of Living in Mexico compared to other areas and countries of the world.
> 
> it applies to Mexico in general, so the info has it's limits, but still useful to me.
> a certain amount of guesswork is involved, since it makes no assumptions of one's current residence.
> 
> very general, as stated, but it would be hard to do it any other way.
> 
> i would find it interesting to know how expats in Mexico feel about what is stated,
> and how particular regions compare to the overall big picture.
> i'm not interested in the tourist areas, but others will be i'm sure.
> 
> it seems that one should plan on taking along any nice clothing one owns,
> as it is supposedly expensive to replace. makes sense to me.
> if nothing else, at least it will help me to decide what i need to take on my first visit.
> 
> i hope you find it useful. if this in any way violates the rules, i apologize,
> but i thought since the forum classifieds is where i found it, it should be OK.


Ed, there is a thread started by a student from India, about the cost of living in the MX city where she'll be living.

Posters who live or have lived there gave her detailed ideas of the cost in that city. If you are set on Lakeside, then your best bet for a more detailed picture of what it costs to live there is to start a thread about that subject.

I recommend reading the other thread, as well, to get an idea of what some other areas cost to live in.


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## Sisalena

To try and get back to the original topic here, I'd like to add some experiences from the beach in Yucatan. We live about a half hour from the capital of Merida, directly on the beach, and have just one window unit air conditioner in our "old" master bedroom (we have recently added a 2nd floor master). Our electric bills run about 500 pesos every two months. We very seldom run the air conditioner, but do have ceiling fans and stand fans throughout the house. Thank goodness for the lovely Gulf breezes we can count on 99% of the time, because as anyone who has researched living in Mexico probably knows, Yucatan is about the hottest state in Mexico. 

I'm pretty much a homebody and in 6 years of living here have never had a maid or gardener. Of course, my husband (a wonderful Veracruzano) does all the yard work, and I do the housework, so thus far we haven't had to incur those expenses. If the place is a bit dusty (after all, we're surrounded by sand), I just live with it, as it's a fact of life on the beach.

We have two vehicles, a full sized pickup and a Nissan Sentra, and gasoline runs approximately 200 pesos a week (we go to Merida to shop once a week). Insurance runs about 7000 pesos a year for both vehicles. 

Our town water bill is 10 pesos a month (for all you want to use, no limits). We have a well for watering the garden. For our drinking water, the Crystal truck comes by twice a week, and we usually get one 5 gallon jug each time (38 pesos a week). 

I indulge myself with Directv from the States for 600 pesos a month. Also, Dishmx for my husband at 270 pesos a month (2 tv's, extended service).

Internet is through Telcel 3g for 449 pesos a month. 

Telephone is through Telcel Amigo, two phones, and we usually run through a 200 pesos card on each per month.

Trash pickup is 10 pesos a month, and they come around at least twice a week, sometimes more. 

I paid cash for our house ($45,000 US 7 years ago), so the only cost (other than renovations/additions) is the fideocomiso, which is now up to 6300 a year. Taxes on the house are 56 pesos a year, which is subject to going up when they reassess, whenever that may be. But to give you an idea of what it would cost to rent, a friend of mine just rented a 2 bedroom house, one block from the beach in Progreso for US 250 per month. It's a lovely little basic home. There are rentals in Merida for the same amount, or up to 5000 pesos a month (or more, I would imagine). Like many others have said, depending on what you feel comfortable living in. 

We eat lunch in Merida when we go there to shop, and if we're going to Costco, we have lunch there for about 100 pesos for the two of us. We could go a lot cheaper than that, as hot dogs with a drink are only 23 pesos, but we indulge with frozen yogurt usually.

Since we have 3 dogs and 2 cats, vet bills and pet food is a big expense for us. Pet food here is definitely more expensive than in the States, and there's a limited selection as well. (Now, I'm only talking about my own experience in Merida!). Since I choose to go to a veterinarian who is affiliated with a U.S. vet practice, and where the vets speak perfect English, I pay more for services than I would if I went to another vet. But I've tried others, and not been as pleased with the service, so I pay the extra for peace of mind.

Our greatest expense (other than vets and construction, but thats another topic entirely) is food. Even though it's just the two of us, we usually end up feeding our albanile(s) at least 4 days a week, and that increases the amount of food I need to prepare. I shop at Sams, Costco, Walmart, Chedraui, and Bodega Aurrera. I do not buy a lot of "junk food" just meats, rice (Knorr's packs, as I love their selection), canned beans, salad greens, fresh veggies (and sometimes frozen, if I can find the Great Value brand, as I just prefer their taste). Chicken prices have almost doubled in the 6 years we've been here. I used to be able to get a good sized whole chicken for about 32 pesos; now they're around 56 to 63 pesos (I'm talking a BIG chicken here). I hardly ever buy meat at Costco, because it's just too expensive (even though it's beautiful!) except every once in awhile I'll buy a rack of ribs for about 160 pesos. Good cuts of beef (i.e., New York strips or T-bone steaks) run around 96 pesos per kilo (2.2 lbs.). Chicken thighs: 12.50 per kilo. Boneless, skinless chicken breasts: 89 a kilo. 
Thin sliced pork "milanesa"; 65 per kilo. These are just some prices I checked from food I have in my freezer today. 

I'd say on the average, we spend about 1000 pesos a week at the grocery store (thats not just food, but all incidentals as well, i.e., toilet paper, paper towels, shampoos, toothpaste, etc.). 

Neither one of us drinks or smokes, so that's one big expense we don't have to deal with. 

I hope I haven't been too "windy" with my post, and that this information might be helpful to someone thinking about moving to Mexico.


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## dontomas

I bought a nice home in Alamos Sonora..beautiful grounds for under $50k. I am spending an average of $8000 pesos per month. I need to add to that the costs of two trips to the US per year to see family which would be about $5,000 US. I could live at the same costs in the US if I wanted to live in some small rural town in the US which offers nothing other than a house and a corner 7-11 or something but instead have a very rich and rewarding life in Mexico. Its not all about the money.


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## vagabondette

wow...some high budgets here. I live in San Cristobal in Chiapas and my expenses are:

Monthly:
Rent - 2400 pesos - includes everything but drinking water for a good sized studio with a comfey bed and passable kitchen. 5 minute walk from the centro.
Mobile - 50-100 pesos - I use text only for communication within mexico
Skype - @$3 USD/month for online phone number with voice mail and unlimited calling to US/Canada
Food/Entertainment - 2000 pesos - covers going out 2-3 times a week


My life is simple but good and I can't even imagine spending some of the budgets mentioned here. I wouldn't know how to spend that much money.


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## trkdrivinfool

I have pensions that total about 2300. cdn per mth, I live in my fifth wheel here in Aca., I pay 3000 pesos per mth for my space, includes electricity, water, security and garbage. I have a pool about 50 steps away and had a patio built out of pine to enjoy the view. I am right on the beach and the waves sometimes shake my trailer. Bottom line, I could not even begin to exist back in Canada for this amount of income, making the move was the best decision I ever heard!


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## ptrichmondmike

vagabondette said:


> wow...some high budgets here. I live in San Cristobal in Chiapas and my expenses are:
> 
> Monthly:
> Rent - 2400 pesos - includes everything but drinking water for a good sized studio with a comfey bed and passable kitchen. 5 minute walk from the centro.
> Mobile - 50-100 pesos - I use text only for communication within mexico
> Skype - @$3 USD/month for online phone number with voice mail and unlimited calling to US/Canada
> Food/Entertainment - 2000 pesos - covers going out 2-3 times a week
> 
> 
> My life is simple but good and I can't even imagine spending some of the budgets mentioned here. I wouldn't know how to spend that much money.


I have to say, I love this post...even though you must have other expenses than what's listed here. Clothing? Transportation? Health care? And only $150/month for food AND entertainment, including going out 2-3 times a week? Once you have eaten, what kind of entertainment can you afford?

Still, it makes me fret a bit less over the measly 19,000 pesos/month that I'll be living on when I make the move.


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## sunnyvmx

I have been living well for the last two years on $100 less than you. I can afford a weekly housecleaner and two hr. therapeutic massage too. I enjoy eating out and like to cook so chicken, beef, pork and seafood are a must in my diet with veggies. I could never afford my lifestyle in the States especially with travel and hobbies so it's a good thing I'm so happy here in Mexico.


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## vagabondette

ptrichmondmike said:


> I have to say, I love this post...even though you must have other expenses than what's listed here. Clothing? Transportation? Health care? And only $150/month for food AND entertainment, including going out 2-3 times a week? Once you have eaten, what kind of entertainment can you afford?
> 
> Still, it makes me fret a bit less over the measly 19,000 pesos/month that I'll be living on when I make the move.


Clothes - I don't buy clothes in Mexico. I find they are expensive, don't fit well and don't last very long. When I shop, I do it when I'm back in the US and can hit the sales. But I don't shop often. Last time I bought clothes was probably at least 2 years ago.

Transport - I walk pretty much everywhere and when I do ride it's the occasional (2-3 times/month) collectivo for $5 MXN. When I need to go further afield I will borrow a scooter from my friend and I just have to cover gas which would be about $40 MXN/day.

Health care - In the last 3.5 years here in Mexico I've spent about $1000 MXN on health care which included a trip to the ER. I did get PRK done last year for $1500 USD but that wasn't a monthly budget thing but rather something I saved up for and paid out of savings so I don't include it in a monthly budget.

Food/entertainment - I like to cook, so I generally eat at home. I cook a lot of soups, eat what's in season and don't eat a lot of meat. My 2 staple soups that I cook in bulk cost about $100 MXN for a pot that has 6-10 servings. My favorite taco place has $5 MXN tacos or I eat in the market where I get them for $3. Most cocinas in town have a 3 course meal with drink for $45 MXN. Entertainment is usually hanging out at the wine bar with friends. Wine is $18/glass and with it you get snacks. Because I've been here so long, I get LOTS of snacks. I go see lots of live music for free or the cost of a beer or two ($15-30 MXN).

One way I keep my food costs down is to only drink water when eating out (and even at home generally). Most places will give you a glass of water for free and it's better for you than some sugary gross drink and doesn't hurt your budget. Most people I know who spend a lot in Mexico generally drink that money one way or another. If you drink a lot, eat a lot of meat or aren't willing to eat like a local, it'll be much more expensive to live here.

I did forget to account for the random scooter gas, laundry and garrafons of water so tack an extra $500/month onto the budget.

But, even when I was traveling all the time, staying in hostels every night, going out almost every night, taking lots of buses and playing tourist, my budget was never over $600 USD/month and I never felt I was scrimping or missing out.


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## ptrichmondmike

sunnyvmx said:


> I have been living well for the last two years on $100 less than you. I can afford a weekly housecleaner and two hr. therapeutic massage too. I enjoy eating out and like to cook so chicken, beef, pork and seafood are a must in my diet with veggies. I could never afford my lifestyle in the States especially with travel and hobbies so it's a good thing I'm so happy here in Mexico.


I just looked at your website, which is very interesting (and which I'll read thoroughly later today), as I work at a organization serving seniors, including people with Alzheimer's. But what does it cost to maintain a site like yours? I ask because when I get to Mexico I'll want to create a site for friends and family to "enjoy" my musings on my new life. (Lol...like those awful slide shows friends love to share when they return from a trip.) I know nothing about this -- are there startup costs, and then it's free, or...?

What's the climate like in Catemaco? -- I assume from its location, hot and humid. But it sure looks like an interesting place, with some unique cultural manifestations.


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## ptrichmondmike

Thanks vagabondette...you make me feel rich, or soon to be rich -- an unaccustomed sensation! I'm pretty minimalist in my own lifestyle up here, so maybe I'll be able to save, for a change, in a new environment.


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## TundraGreen

ptrichmondmike said:


> …
> But what does it cost to maintain a site like yours?
> …


It costs about $5 or $10 usd/year to own a domain name (e.g. yourname.com). Then it costs about $75 usd/year to have someone host it for you. If you build your own site, which is not hard to do for a simple site, those are the only costs. If you hire someone to build it for you, the costs can be anything from a few hundred dollars to millions. 

If you do decide to hire someone to build the site, I suggest you separate that from buying the name and arranging the hosting. I have seen people paying large monthly fees to a developer just to maintain a site with no changes. One non-profit in Mexico that I worked with was paying $150/month to the developer of the site just for the hosting. It is cheaper to buy the name, hire a host, then if you want help with the designing the pages, hire someone to just do that. That way you have the code. A side benefit is that if you decide to change developers you are in control of the site and the code.


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## vagabondette

ptrichmondmike said:


> Thanks vagabondette...you make me feel rich, or soon to be rich -- an unaccustomed sensation! I'm pretty minimalist in my own lifestyle up here, so maybe I'll be able to save, for a change, in a new environment.


Sure thing. Basically, you can spend as much or as little as you want. I could go down to a $400 USD budget if I rented a room in a shared house and didn't go out to eat at all but I wouldn't enjoy that lifestyle so I spend a bit more and I'm happy.

But, in the same town, a friend who was here for 6 months rented an $800 USD/month 1 BR apartment (and considered it cheap), rented a car (that he used 4 times), hired a chef but ate every meal out and did all sorts of other "keeping up with the joneses" kind of stuff that made the rest of our little expat group roll our eyes and tell him he was nuts. But he was still stuck in the ****** mentality of "i must have the best of everything and it must be sparkly and new" vs what most people here do which is live simply but comfortably.

Regarding the website, you can get a free blog at wordpress.com. That is your best bet for a simple personal blog. You can even have your own domain name if you want but they'll handle the hosting. Takes about 5 minutes to set up.

If you want to do it on your own, a domain name is about $9/year and hosting about $50/year but it'll take some knowledge on your part to get everything up and running and maintained.


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## ptrichmondmike

Thanks Tundra -- very helpful info. Your own site is sort of what I had in mind for myself.


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## Isla Verde

vagabondette said:


> One way I keep my food costs down is to only drink water when eating out (and even at home generally). Most places will give you a glass of water for free and it's better for you than some sugary gross drink and doesn't hurt your budget.


I´m surprised that restaurants will give you a glass of water free. Is that bottled water or tap water? I like _aguas de frutas_ myself.


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## vagabondette

Isla Verde said:


> I´m surprised that restaurants will give you a glass of water free. Is that bottled water or tap water? I like _aguas de frutas_ myself.



It's agua pura from a garrafon. I've only ever had 1-2 say no and I've never been charged. Occasionally they'll try to bring me a bottle but I send it back. If, for whatever reason, I can't get water at the restaurant, I generally have a small bottle in my bag that I drink from after I leave.


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## Isla Verde

vagabondette said:


> It's agua pura from a garrafon. I've only ever had 1-2 say no and I've never been charged. Occasionally they'll try to bring me a bottle but I send it back. If, for whatever reason, I can't get water at the restaurant, I generally have a small bottle in my bag that I drink from after I leave.


I guess the restaurants in San Cristóbal are more generous than they are in Mexico City. I've never seen anyone drinking anything but bottled water or _refrescos_ or _agua de frutas_ in the little eateries I frequent in my neighborhood.


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## vagabondette

Isla Verde said:


> I guess the restaurants in San Cristóbal are more generous than they are in Mexico City. I've never seen anyone drinking anything but bottled water or _refrescos_ or _agua de frutas_ in the little eateries I frequent in my neighborhood.


Well, I'm generally the only one ever drinking a glass of water and they usually look at me like I'm smoking crack when I ask for it but it's rarely a problem.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I guess the restaurants in San Cristóbal are more generous than they are in Mexico City. I've never seen anyone drinking anything but bottled water or _refrescos_ or _agua de frutas_ in the little eateries I frequent in my neighborhood.


I ask for plain, non-bottled water in restaurants all over Mexico and rarely am refused. They never charge for it. You have to specifically ask for "un vaso de agua de garafon". If you just ask for water, the default is bottled water, with its waste packaging and cost.


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## edgeee

TundraGreen said:


> It costs about $5 or $10 usd/year to own a domain name (e.g. yourname.com). Then it costs about $75 usd/year to have someone host it for you. If you build your own site, which is not hard to do for a simple site, those are the only costs. If you hire someone to build it for you, the costs can be anything from a few hundred dollars to millions.
> 
> If you do decide to hire someone to build the site, I suggest you separate that from buying the name and arranging the hosting. I have seen people paying large monthly fees to a developer just to maintain a site with no changes. One non-profit in Mexico that I worked with was paying $150/month to the developer of the site just for the hosting. It is cheaper to buy the name, hire a host, then if you want help with the designing the pages, hire someone to just do that. That way you have the code. A side benefit is that if you decide to change developers you are in control of the site and the code.


as Will pints out, the 'domain name' can be had cheap, but even that can be avoided; if you really want to.

in a nutshell, it boils down to how much control you want to retain or surrender.
google, wordpress.com, and others will give you a domain name for free, but there are some restrictions to consider.

Wordpress is a funny animal.
you can use them for a domain name, or you can use their products for free,
but you can't do both. (i'll explain as i go.)

weird i know, but this stuff does get complicated.
if you get a domain name from them, you will have an internet address that is linked to them, as in 'yourdomain.wordpress.com'
google works much the same way, as in 'yourdomain.blogspot.com'.
in both cases, many rules and limits apply.

however, if you use godaddy or some other domain name registrar, you get a sitename that is your own. 
search for 'cheap domain names' to find providers.
the annual cost is not much, as noted above,
but your site must be 'hosted' somewhere, meaning it must be on a 'server'.

hosting can get expensive, (see Will's example.), so you may want to practice some first to learn the ropes.

that higher cost can be avoided by giving up some control.

i recommend you start with a small test blog on google.
like wordpress, you will face limits on creativity, but it's free of any monetary cost.
it does offer a good way to learn the basics and terminology involved.

reeeldeeel(dot)blogspot(dot)com
is something i have been playing around with, but never really developed,
but it shows the kind of thing you can do for no $$$ at all.
it is not functional, in a commercial sense, tho it does seem so, in a minor way.
it is a google free blog using a wordpress template.

(Will, take that bit out if it should not be here, please.)

wordpress also offers 'templates' for free, but you can't really use the best ones on a wordpress.com domain.
sounds crazy, i know, but they want you to buy something, and this is like a carrot/stick inducement.

it can sometimes be tricky getting the name you want, since they must all be unique.

if you learn the ropes with a free blog, you can then move on to the good stuff.
when you have your own domain name and hosting in place,
a huge new world of possibilities opens up.

then you can choose from hundreds, even thousands, of wordpress templates,
(more are added almost daily.),
available for free, tho most of them are not allowed on a wordpress.com blog.

these templates are the basis for your 'home page', and they would like you to buy one, but that really isn't necessary. 
only high powered commercial sites need all the bells and whistles they want to sell you.

the basics will get you started, and are sufficient for most personal use,
but be prepared to face a learning curve.
you will finally learn what a widget is.

so if you don't mind giving a plug to google or wordpress, it costs you nothing but time and effort.

however, once you learn how it's done, a little money for a domain name and some more for hosting, allows you to get as creative as you want to be.
(and whatever you post on your 'free' site can easily be copied to your 'pro' site,
when it's up and running, and a 'redirect' can send searchers to the 'new and improved' site.

sounds complicated, because it is, but you can learn at your own pace, and the bare bones is not hard to do.
if you like learning new things, you'll do fine.

good luck, and PM me if you have more questions, so we don't hijack this thread.


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## TundraGreen

edgeee said:


> …
> hosting can get expensive, (see Will's example.), so you may want to practice some first to learn the ropes.
> 
> that higher cost can be avoided by giving up some control.
> …


Is hosting expensive? It is only $5-$10 month, less if you sign up for longer terms. 

And I don't know what you mean by "higher cost can be avoided by giving up some control". Are there free sites that will host you if you let them include advertising or something on your pages?


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## edgeee

TundraGreen said:


> Is hosting expensive? It is only $5-$10 month, less if you sign up for longer terms.
> 
> And I don't know what you mean by "higher cost can be avoided by giving up some control". Are there free sites that will host you if you let them include advertising or something on your pages?


Well Will, expensive is a relative term.
as you noted, the cost of a domain name is only about one tenth the cost of hosting, roughly speaking.

by using google (domain.blogspot) or wordpress (domain.wordpress.com),
both of those $$ costs can be eliminated entirely.
as i noted, these 'free' sites, are not free of limitations.

based on my own experience, it just makes more sense to go that route until one decides whether they want to endure the learning curve.

try the 'free' option first without spending any $$.

make no mistake, there is a lot to learn.
some people don't want to go through that, so IMO, it's logical to try that first, before spending any money at all.

if the learning and time and work involved is more than one want's to invest,
why spend money just to learn that lesson if you don't have to?

using google (blogspot) or wordpress.com is like pre-school, and costs no money.
it's just smarter to test the waters first, before you buy scuba gear.

hosting is cheaper (per month) when one commits to long terms, but a year at $10 per month is $120US.

if it turns out the time and effort (the REAL cost) involved is too steep a price, why spend $100+ to learn that lesson if you don't have to?

many will enjoy that learning process, but like most things, the more one learns, the more there is yet to learn.
for some people, that's not something they will enjoy, so there is no need to spend $$ to decide it's not worth the time and effort.

i let my enthusiasm convince me to spend $$, but that's because i was ignorant of the facts and the complicated and convoluted process involved.

later i realized how much much money i threw away to learn a lesson the hard way.

my point is that you can learn for yourself if it's worth it without paying the tuition.

then, if one still wants to proceed, at least the groundwork has been laid, and the $$ can be spent wisely instead of chasing some promotion that has little or no value.

a novice has no knowledge of what is worth the bucks/pesos.
someone who tries the 'free' path first finds out what has value and what doesn't.

look at it this way.
why spend US$100+ for a year of hosting, if it only takes one month to decide the learning curve is too steep, and the time required is not something one is willing to devote?


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## terrybahena

I started a blog when I moved to Mexico. It was free and I googled blogs and went to a site called Blogger. It attaches to Google+ Chrome (which I know nothing about). But I don't pay anything and my family and a few friends are enjoying my posts. It also has a "dashboard" so you can see your stats, how many page views, comments, etc. I was very surprised to see that I've had almost 100 pageviews from Russia! check it out if you want to see the url path to get there.
http:/[email protected]

They also ask you if you want to do other things, like make money off it, or invite people or business to see your blog. Not sure if this is what anyone's looking for, I only read the last few posts on this thread.


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## Anonimo

Terry, the URL, http:/[email protected] led me to my own Blogspot Dashboard. 
Change the "@" for a dot "." and the URL works and points to your blog.


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## conklinwh

gty98270 said:


> Great start to a conversation in my book and well explained. Getting to the basics;
> I live in somewhat rural Jalisco, half way between GDL and Melaque in a town of about 50k.
> To survive I would need 10,965 pesos a month. This includes gas and auto upkeep for local travel only.
> To live comfortably by USA "middle class standards"- 22,000 pesos
> To live like a king- 40, 000 pesos


[/QUOTE]

I think that this a pretty good range. We don't "live like a king" by any means but are certainly closer to the 40K pesos than 22K. Our expenses seem to vary from "comfortable" in electricity in that casita about 2K pesos(studio about 500p) a month as it is very dry and we have some pretty extensive landscaping as my wife both a painter and gardener and she needs the color, and grass. Our gas for the car seems to be higher at maybe 2k pesos at latest price as we are 45min from San Miguel and 45min from QRO. I tend to do San Miguel weekly and QRO bi-weekly. Probably could take bus to San Luis de la Paz, 5mi, where there is a Chedraui but I prefer Mega in San Miguel and Superama in QRO for more than basics. San Miguel is also our US mail point and my bank and great restaurants. QRO is also for Home Depot and Costco and also great restaurants. Maid/cook & gardener for combination of studio & case lots is about 8K pesos/month. Rest is basically, food, incidentals(including gardening supplies) and entertainment although LP gas about 1K pesos/month.
We own our properties so carrying cost other than utilities is basically nil but expect rent would be about 6,500-7,500p/month for what we have.


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## terrybahena

Anonimo said:


> Terry, the URL, http:/[email protected] led me to my own Blogspot Dashboard.
> Change the "@" for a dot "." and the URL works and points to your blog.


thanx!


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## surfrider

I have 18,000 to live on but I am finding it difficult to do. My life style is to watch every penny. There are two of us and the most expensive thing we spend money on is our medical needs. My son takes quite expensive medicines and I have not got any insurance program. Have to figure out the program here that helps with medical expenses. If not for our medical - we could live very nicely.


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## cuylers5746

*Lifestyle predominant factor in cost of living in Mexico?*

Hi Conklin;

You sure do point out, and make an excellent case, that it is entirely your life style that will be the predominant factor in determining your cost of living in Mexico.

It almost seems to me, that you're not yet in a retirement mode with your life style? That's a tremendous amount of commuting each week. I don't think that to be a common lifestyle here in Mexico - but I would enjoy hearing feedback from other's to see if it is?

When we lived out on a pennisula in a private Golf Club Community in Baja Mar Country Club it was like 10 miles to Ensenada, B.C.N. for all services and Super Markets, and 25 miles north to Rosarito for same, and we probably utilized a third of the gas you are consuming and time. Lifestyles and habits do very so much.

Next your energy consumption seems very high. Is it that cold in Los Posos in the winter time, or do you utilize A./C that much? Just curious.


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## cuylers5746

*Dropping your cost of living in Mexico*

Hi Surfrider;

Don't they have IMSS (Seguro Social) in Patzcuro? Why don't you get your son on it there. They will give you the medicines prescribed for your son, from the IMSS Doctor for free along with the service. Depending on how old your son it I think (10-16years old) is less than $150.00 USD equivalent per year. I find today generic medicines have come a long way copying the original drugs and work just as well in 90% of the cases. Some times they run out and you have to come back another day for those that they ran out of, and in rare cases about 3-5% of the time, we just buy it over the counter.

If you and your wife don't have a lot of pre-existing conditions you can get on it too. For a retired couple over 65 it runs about $600.00 USD equivalent per year for the both of us.


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## quarfelburg

We are a family of 4 with 2 kids in private school in Valle de Bravo and our monthly spend is about 30k pesos. 

Breakdown:
Rent (3 bedroom in town): 3500
School: 7500
Maid every other day: 2250
Electricity: 1000
Internet + Cel (pay as you go) + Landline: 1000
Food: 6000 (we eat well)
Eating Out 3x a week: 5000
Gas for house: 500
Gas for car: 750
Entertainment and Gifts (Movie theater on weekends, the occasional concert and at least one party a week): 8000


It is a small town and after over a year here I do find myself getting bored - so I budget another 10-20k pesos per month for travel which we do extensively now.


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## cuylers5746

*Some of you need to check into the Florida School of Retirement Living*

Hi Surfrider again;

Just another saving tip, mentioned before, but if you don't have it you're leaving money on the table needlessly.

You don't have to be 65 to get the INAPAM, "tercer edad" card. You only have to be 60. 

You save 50% on Inter City and Cross Country Bus tickets (very sizeable savings)
You save 100% at all Museums
You save 50% at Cinmex Cinemas
Local Busses where we live we get like a 50% discount same as students.
I hear some Mexican Airlines give 10-20% discounts?
The list goes on and one and on.

Don't stop asking anywhere you go. This morning at a Lab, I had a blood test.
My wife inquired and sure enough we got a 20% discount.

I'll exclude any of you that read these posts, that aren't retired yet.

But for those of you who are retired in Mexico, most of you (excepting Surfrider and Islaverde)
that I've read posts from so far, most of you need to go to the Florida School on Retirement.
I'm not cheap by any means, but throwing money out the window is not my style either. Like
my buddy Joe puts on every email he sends..."If you don't spend it you don't have to make it".

If you lived awhile in Florida you wouldn't be making some of these outlandish mistakes. You neighbors would be cluckling at your actions.

I know everyone retiring down here feels richer because the costs excepting the most cosmopolitan cities is at least half of in the USA. And, the locals feel you are rich too. In their eye's if you have $500 m.n. in descrectionary spending your rich.

So after spending off an on more than 25 years in the retirement capital of the USA, when we were younger, some of what I hear - I have to chuckle too. Get thee to Florida and learn how to retire comfortably without throwing your money away.

I'll give you admittedly an off the wall but real example. While comuting still to USA on business about 10 years ago, I took a flight home to Mexico. Sitting next to me was a nice gal from Oklahoma going to visit her retired parents living in Lake Chapala area. She said her folks were so excited. They sold their home in Oklahoma and bought a 6000 sq. ft. house by the lake. Just the two of them.

Why would you want to retire and have almost a full time job managing a cook, helper, gardner, two maids (5-6) people to maintain your house. Things don't happen, get done on their own - you have to manage it. Maybe some people love to stand around and watch people work for them? Having had 40-45 employees at one time, it's the last thing I'd want to do in my retirement.

Then, why would anyone with a 3 bedroom house need a maid every other day?

Then, why If you love a big garden would you pay a gardener to come every day. If you
love a garden, don't you want to inspect every plant closely while (YOU) are doing the
watering?

Like I say, some of you excepting maybe Islaverde and Surfrider need to check into the
Florida Retirement School.

Maybe I just learned to much from my very nice Jewish neighbors in Florida over the years?
By the way I'm not Jewish, but of what they said made perfect sense to me.


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## Souper

cuylers5746 said:


> I'll give you admittedly an off the wall but real example. While commuting still to USA on business about 10 years ago, I took a flight home to Mexico. Sitting next to me was a nice gal from Oklahoma going to visit her retired parents living in Lake Chapala area. She said her folks were so excited. They sold their home in Oklahoma and bought a 6000 sq. ft. house by the lake. Just the two of them.
> 
> Why would you want to retire and have almost a full time job managing a cook, helper, gardener, two maids (5-6) people to maintain your house. Things don't happen, get done on their own - you have to manage it. Maybe some people love to stand around and watch people work for them? Having had 40-45 employees at one time, it's the last thing I'd want to do in my retirement.
> 
> Then, why would anyone with a 3 bedroom house need a maid every other day?
> 
> Then, why If you love a big garden would you pay a gardener to come every day. If you
> love a garden, don't you want to inspect every plant closely while (YOU) are doing the watering?


If that nice couple from Oklahoma are excited to have their 6000 sq ft home and a large garden they pay a gardener to care for, why should we care? 
Good for them for getting what they want and being excited about it!


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## Isla Verde

Thanks for mentioning me as someone who seems to know how to have a sensible retirement in Mexico, even though I've never set a foot in Florida, though I am Jewish!


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## 1happykamper

Detailman said:


> This is a question that is on everyone's minds when they move to Mexico. A common answer is that it depends on your lifestyle and how you want to live.
> Whereas that is very true, I think that the question being asked here, in my honest opinion, is what different people are experiencing themselves and what it costs them for "their" lifestyle.
> 
> Some has already answered giving their personal situation which helps potential expats to gauge things based on that answer. They can determine which group they fit in depending on how they want to live.
> 
> From the answers so far we have learned that you can live in Mexico City in a comfortable but careful lifestyle without a car for $12,000 (pesos) per month. You can live in Guadalajara, being careful, for around $10,000 pesos. DonGringo can live an expanded lifestyle (and he explains where the pesos go) for around $25,000 pesos plus housing. Another gave a basis breakdown of: 1) Just survive - $11,000; 2) Comfortable - $22,000; and 3) luxurious - $40,000.
> 
> Someone could argue as to what luxurious means and for them it might mean $75,000 but that is not the point. The more people comment and include what it means to them, the more forum members can get a better idea of what would be reasonable for them, plus or minus.
> 
> So this thread serves a very important function if people will reply with their comments. (And they do not need to give a complete financial breakdown.) I know it is helpful to me and I would be happy to hear more comments about what people personally experience.


I do not live in Mexico yet...
I have just left Mazatlan. I visited 3 homes rented by expats while I was there. For $520 this person had the top floor..and a GREAT ocean view with city view to the side..
It was a large 2 bedroom in really nice shape in a great area and unfurnished. The next...same building...both had access to a rooftop space to host parties...which was GREAT!!! This person has less of a view..is furnished same size..$350. Both pay $25 a month for electric. These homes were one block from the beach..the next home was in Centro historic district..gorgeous plaza.. A VERY old..a tad worn out apartment..small one bedroom was $250..unsure of the other details.


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## surfrider

*Blogger*



terrybahena said:


> I started a blog when I moved to Mexico. It was free and I googled blogs and went to a site called Blogger. It attaches to Google+ Chrome (which I know nothing about). But I don't pay anything and my family and a few friends are enjoying my posts. It also has a "dashboard" so you can see your stats, how many page views, comments, etc. I was very surprised to see that I've had almost 100 pageviews from Russia! check it out if you want to see the url path to get there.
> http:/[email protected]
> 
> They also ask you if you want to do other things, like make money off it, or invite people or business to see your blog. Not sure if this is what anyone's looking for, I only read the last few posts on this thread.


I use the same and love it - I have several blogs on Blogger all free. 

Also there is this wonderful FREE site called Alison.com and they will teach you anything you want to learn. I got two free web site pages off the course that I am on for creating web sites. first one is to write your web pages in WORD then use a free program called KompoZer that will download the word pages into a web page format. Also use InfanView to change the size of photos for web pages - the correct way . Both programs are free. Housing is still going to cost and domain names will cost to register but godaddy just had a sale for domain's for only 1.99 and they were .com's.
Check out that alison.com for more information. It really is free...


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## surfrider

trkdrivinfool said:


> I have pensions that total about 2300. cdn per mth, I live in my fifth wheel here in Aca., I pay 3000 pesos per mth for my space, includes electricity, water, security and garbage. I have a pool about 50 steps away and had a patio built out of pine to enjoy the view. I am right on the beach and the waves sometimes shake my trailer. Bottom line, I could not even begin to exist back in Canada for this amount of income, making the move was the best decision I ever heard!


Were is Aca>?


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## surfrider

Let me ask a question about rent on this site. 
I have trouble finding places to rent for good prices, but due to my own level of ignorance, I do not speak or read Spanish. So is it a fair assumption to say that if you know someone in the area who will help you with finding cheep rentals or you are able to negotiate price in Spanish you get a better price and you are able to find rentals easier?


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## quarfelburg

Absolutely surfrider. And if you can get a native to argue the rent for you it will be much lower. In my town the going rate for rent is literally half of what is published everywhere online for gringos.


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## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> Let me ask a question about rent on this site.
> I have trouble finding places to rent for good prices, but due to my own level of ignorance, I do not speak or read Spanish. So is it a fair assumption to say that if you know someone in the area who will help you with finding cheep rentals or you are able to negotiate price in Spanish you get a better price and you are able to find rentals easier?


Since Spanish is the language of the country, everything is easier if you speak Spanish. And, certainly, having someone who understands local practices will enable you to find cheaper places than relying on real estate agents who cater to foreigners.

But you will not necessarily get a different price just because you are a foreigner. That may be the case in places where there are lots of foreigners, but in many places people see so few foreigners that it never occurs to them to charge a different price.


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## quarfelburg

Not to mention the internet is not used very much here. Most places get rented from ads on the actual apartments or through friends of friends. Realtors and websites are really only chiefly used for higher end places.


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## mickisue1

surfrider said:


> Let me ask a question about rent on this site.
> I have trouble finding places to rent for good prices, but due to my own level of ignorance, I do not speak or read Spanish. So is it a fair assumption to say that if you know someone in the area who will help you with finding cheep rentals or you are able to negotiate price in Spanish you get a better price and you are able to find rentals easier?


Take a stab at reading Spanish, even if you think you are hopeless. Google (in your case) "Patzcuaro se renta". Most of the words in an ad for a home for rent are close enough to English to figure it out. And pictures require no translation, of course. 

There will be a lot more offerings at reasonable prices. But even better is to befriend other expats there, find out where they have found good places to live, and if they speak Spanish, they can talk for you.


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## circle110

TundraGreen said:


> But you will not necessarily get a different price just because you are a foreigner. That may be the case in places where there are lots of foreigners, but in many places people see so few foreigners that it never occurs to them to charge a different price.


Here in Guanajuato people seem to prefer to rent to foreigners since we have a better reputation as far as caring for the property and paying on time.

My wife has always called first so that they don't initially know that one of us is a ****** (my Spanish is good but not quite accent-free enough to fool the locals over the phone that I'm one of them). We have done our rental shopping in the local papers where the price is generally listed up front so we know that we aren't being charged any kind of "****** surcharge". Once we show up and they see that I am a ****** they become very eager to rent to us. 

There are definitely properties here in GTO that are designed to be rented by foreigners with the ridiculously high rental prices to match. They are usually to be found online.


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## chicaperdida

Ok, here's the situation. My husband is from Chiapas and swears he lived better there than in California. The cost of living is extremely high here in California. He works 3 jobs and I work part-time only to live in a 1 bedroom rental house with his brother with no health insurance and struggling to make ends meet. I have no desire or need to live like Paris Hilton or the like, but I don't want to take years off my life with financial stress anymore. Do you think it is possible to live better on less in Chiapas? What are rough estimates for living there? We are a couple with no human children(for a few years at least), but several pets. We don't spend a lot on clothes, but I like good food. Although my husband eats little meat and I, none. My husband still owns a nice house there (his mother is currently living there, but I don't mind sharing), so we wouldn't have to worry about rent. Do you think we'd be able to eek out a decent living or are we just being dreamers?


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> Ok, here's the situation. My husband is from Chiapas and swears he lived better there than in California. The cost of living is extremely high here in California. He works 3 jobs and I work part-time only to live in a 1 bedroom rental house with his brother with no health insurance and struggling to make ends meet. I have no desire or need to live like Paris Hilton or the like, but I don't want to take years off my life with financial stress anymore. Do you think it is possible to live better on less in Chiapas? What are rough estimates for living there? We are a couple with no human children(for a few years at least), but several pets. We don't spend a lot on clothes, but I like good food. Although my husband eats little meat and I, none. My husband still owns a nice house there (his mother is currently living there, but I don't mind sharing), so we wouldn't have to worry about rent. Do you think we'd be able to eek out a decent living or are we just being dreamers?


Chiapas is one of the poorer states in Mexico, so I'm guessing that wages wouldn't be very high. What sort of work would your husband be looking for? Chiapas is a large state: where is your husband's house? There would be a big difference between living in Tuxtla, the capital, San Cristóbal, or a smaller city or town in the mountains or the lowlands.


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## chicaperdida

Isla Verde said:


> Chiapas is one of the poorer states in Mexico, so I'm guessing that wages wouldn't be very high. What sort of work would your husband be looking for? Chiapas is a large state: where is your husband's house? There would be a big difference between living in Tuxtla, the capital, San Cristóbal, or a smaller city or town in the mountains or the lowlands.


His house is in Tonala. When he lived there before he had a job as a forklift driver. I want to say for Coca-Cola company, but I could be mistaken. I assume he would try to find a job similar to that. We are in the very early stages of thinking about this. Thank you for your swift reply.


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## mickisue1

Take a look at the property taxes, the fact that you won't have medical bills, and that food that you prepare, if you buy from markets instead of supermarkets, is extremely reasonable.

Then factor in the much lower pay scale, and the fact that, should you have kids, you'll probably want to send them to private school, and find out what they'll cost in Chiapas.

COL is, to a great extent, location dependent. But it's also lifestyle dependent, so someone else's costs will probably not be yours.


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> His house is in Tonala. When he lived there before he had a job as a forklift driver. I want to say for Coca-Cola company, but I could be mistaken. I assume he would try to find a job similar to that. We are in the very early stages of thinking about this. Thank you for your swift reply.


I'm happy to offer what advice I can. I don´t know where Tonala is located. Have you spent much time there? Would you be happy living there for the long haul?


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## chicaperdida

Isla Verde said:


> I'm happy to offer what advice I can. I don´t know where Tonala is located. Have you spent much time there? Would you be happy living there for the long haul?


I have been to Mexico, but only to touristy places. I've never been to Chiapas. We are planning an extended visit next year to check it out and if we decide to it will be the following year most likely (1214) that we would move.


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> I have been to Mexico, but only to touristy places. I've never been to Chiapas. We are planning an extended visit next year to check it out and if we decide to it will be the following year most likely (1214) that we would move.


An extended stay is an excellent idea.


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> I have been to Mexico, but only to touristy places. I've never been to Chiapas. We are planning an extended visit next year to check it out and if we decide to it will be the following year most likely (1214) that we would move.


Check this out: Tonala Chiapas.


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## chicaperdida

Isla Verde said:


> Check this out: Tonala Chiapas.


Thank you!


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> Thank you!


You're welcome!


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## surfrider

I have lived in Chiapas and was born and lived in California - he is right the cost of living is cheaper in Chiapas - as well as the wages. I would suggest Mexico City where there are more jobs available to him or some other large city. Anywhere in Mexico will have a cheaper cost of living than in CA. While real estate sales and outlook in California is getting better the overall outlook for business and other industrial growths to bring money into the California state are rather grim and do not look good for the future financial picture. If you are in Orange County the board of Supervisors are way over budget and the other area are also just not as high. 
I hope this helps.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> I have lived in Chiapas and was born and lived in California - he is right the cost of living is cheaper in Chiapas - as well as the wages. I would suggest Mexico City where there are more jobs available to him or some other large city. Anywhere in Mexico will have a cheaper cost of living than in CA. While real estate sales and outlook in California is getting better the overall outlook for business and other industrial growths to bring money into the California state are rather grim and do not look good for the future financial picture. If you are in Orange County the board of Supervisors are way over budget and the other area are also just not as high.
> I hope this helps.


Good advice but it sounds like chicaperdida's husband wants to return to his hometown where he has a house. In my experience, when Mexicans return to their homeland after living abroad, they always go back to their hometown to be near their family.


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## surfrider

agree - that is what I have seen. For the Mexican his / her homeland is in the blood and they will never forever leave their land.


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## Shoes

*Great way for me to learn*



Detailman said:


> This is a question that is on everyone's minds when they move to Mexico. A common answer is that it depends on your lifestyle and how you want to live.
> Whereas that is very true, I think that the question being asked here, in my honest opinion, is what different people are experiencing themselves and what it costs them for "their" lifestyle.
> 
> Some has already answered giving their personal situation which helps potential expats to gauge things based on that answer. They can determine which group they fit in depending on how they want to live.
> 
> From the answers so far we have learned that you can live in Mexico City in a comfortable but careful lifestyle without a car for $12,000 (pesos) per month. You can live in Guadalajara, being careful, for around $10,000 pesos. DonGringo can live an expanded lifestyle (and he explains where the pesos go) for around $25,000 pesos plus housing. Another gave a basis breakdown of: 1) Just survive - $11,000; 2) Comfortable - $22,000; and 3) luxurious - $40,000.
> 
> Someone could argue as to what luxurious means and for them it might mean $75,000 but that is not the point. The more people comment and include what it means to them, the more forum members can get a better idea of what would be reasonable for them, plus or minus.
> 
> So this thread serves a very important function if people will reply with their comments. (And they do not need to give a complete financial breakdown.) I know it is helpful to me and I would be happy to hear more comments about what people personally experience.


This is a great thread and educational for me. All you expats that have been living in Mexico for awhile, please continue to share and Thanks, Shoes


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## chicaperdida

Isla Verde said:


> Good advice but it sounds like chicaperdida's husband wants to return to his hometown where he has a house. In my experience, when Mexicans return to their homeland after living abroad, they always go back to their hometown to be near their family.


Yeah, I can't imagine him living in a different state. It's a very nice home from the pictures I've seen too, so I don't think we'd sell. Again, thank you both for the tips.


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## CeeZeeMex

*Manzanillo*

We live part of the year in Manzanillo and although it is not as tourist oriented as say PV or Cancun, it does have higher costs than more rural cities and towns. Average condo living ( not including rent or ownership): per month
Power with some AC use is 700 pesos
Condo fees which include water, maid, maintenance , nat. Gas, 2300.00 pesos ( usually included in your rent )
Phone & Internet 400 
Sat TV is from Canada , if you want local cable it is 300
We spend about 4-5000 pesos on food, paper products, cleaning products, ice etc.
Eating out in Manz 
Street stand : 2 can eat for 80 inc a drink
Average small Mexican restaurant 2 people can have a nice meal c/w a drink for 150 - 180 pesos
Average fancier place entries are 120-150 pesos , drinks 30-50
Bus 50
Taxi short trip 30; longer 50
Oceanfront condo rents are from 13000 - 30000 pesos / month
Off ocean depending on where and what , I have seen advertised from 4000 pesos but a relatively nice place would be 7000 or more.
Summary: we average about 20000 pesos a month living very well ( note we own so you would need to add rent) 
Hopefully this will trigger more response from here and elsewhere with other personal experiences


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## sunnyvmx

What a difference between West coast and East coast cost of living. I live in a 1 bedroom furnished casita with garden patio. My rent including water, Wifi, night watchman and all repairs is less than 5000 pesos ($384). Taxi is 15 pesos ($1.15), electric 75 pesos ($5.80), gas 100 pesos ($7.70), bus 8 pesos to San Andres 9 mi. ($.60) and cable TV at 286 pesos ($22). My housecleaner for 4 hrs. is 100 pesos and a therapeutic 2 hr. massage is 500 pesos ($40) or $20 per hour. All in all I live very well on $800 a month, a little more with winter residents including more wine and dining out. The state of Veracruz is fishing, ranching and farming with much less expat influence. Here we live like the Mexicans and happily with them. I am single so that must be taken in consideration in my monthly expenses.


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## joaquinx

Sunny, if we keep telling people how great it is to live in Veracruz, they'll all want to live here.


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## Isla Verde

CeeZeeMex said:


> We live part of the year in Manzanillo and although it is not as tourist oriented as say PV or Cancun, it does have higher costs than more rural cities and towns.
> ...Bus 50 ...


Is that 50 pesos(!) to take a bus in the city? In Mexico City the buses run from 3 to 5 pesos.


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## sunnyvmx

I know, I know. I have refrained from making that post for a couple of years for just that reason, but what can I say, "The wine made me do it!" I guess I felt we didn't qualify in the past, but now we have our own Bodega, Soriana and a large Coppel. Maybe we don't have cruise ships in the lake, but we have an annual speed boat race weekend that has to put us up there somewhere. Then when we are granted the pueblo magico title the hoardes will descend. The witches will be opening offices with waiting rooms.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Is that 50 pesos(!) to take a bus in the city? In Mexico City the buses run from 3 to 5 pesos.


Probably a monthly expense, like the rest of the list, not a single ride.


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## cuylers5746

Hi Bilder99;

Smart people. Loreto is one fine place, the original Capital of Baja.

In some ways it's reminds me of how Mazatlan must have been 100 years ago, but without waves.
I mean with the beautiful islands off shore, tall mountains behind the town to the west.


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## surfrider

sunnyvmx said:


> What a difference between West coast and East coast cost of living. I live in a 1 bedroom furnished casita with garden patio. My rent including water, Wifi, night watchman and all repairs is less than 5000 pesos ($384). Taxi is 15 pesos ($1.15), electric 75 pesos ($5.80), gas 100 pesos ($7.70), bus 8 pesos to San Andres 9 mi. ($.60) and cable TV at 286 pesos ($22). My housecleaner for 4 hrs. is 100 pesos and a therapeutic 2 hr. massage is 500 pesos ($40) or $20 per hour. All in all I live very well on $800 a month, a little more with winter residents including more wine and dining out. The state of Veracruz is fishing, ranching and farming with much less expat influence. Here we live like the Mexicans and happily with them. I am single so that must be taken in consideration in my monthly expenses.


I think that the phase "we live like the Mexicans" has more to do with you expenses than anything thing else. I wonder just how many of us do "live like the Mexicans" and what does that real mean? 
My neighbors are all Mexican and some have windows that are broken, some have their own chickens, some just have material over their windows and nothing more, they have extended family living in the same place with them, very seldom eat out and if they do it is off the street vendors, most do not have cars. 
Then I see some very rich Mexicans and personally I want to live like they do.


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## sunnyvmx

All of that is certainly true. We certainly live in Tepetapan much better than many Mexicans. To me it means that we shop the tiendas in town for fruit and veggies, I buy meat and fish in the mercado, my hair gets cut, my scooter gets gas, we eat out on a families front porch, buy our strawberries from a wheelbarrow and clothes that arrived in a bale. I'm not shopping or dining out with expats (except the ones I go with) and we don't have Costco, Home Depot or Carl's Jr. I remind myself all the time how fortunate I am to be able to live so well because if I tried to live on my SS in the States, I would be living like the poorest of Mexicans here.


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## surfrider

point taken - how you wish to live in Mexico is based upon how much money you want or have to spend. But no where in the states could you live on the same amount of money with the same life style as in Mexico... regardless of the amount.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> point taken - how you wish to live in Mexico is based upon how much money you want or have to spend. But no where in the states could you live on the same amount of money with the same life style as in Mexico... regardless of the amount.


That's certainly true for me. While my lifestyle here is on the modest side (very small apartment, no car, no big nights out on the town unless someone has "invited" me, shopping for clothes in the local tianguis instead of department stores), I would have a really difficult time having a decent life if (God forbid) I was forced to move back to the States.


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## joaquinx

I know a few expats, but most of the people that I know and see on a regular basis are Mexicans. I imagine that if I moved back to the US, Medicare would reduce the costs of my doctor visits and medication, but I don't know how much. I see my heart doctor who is located in the next block every three months for 700 pesos a visit and I bring along clinical test results that cost around 600 pesos. My medications run around 1,500 pesos a month with an INAPAM card. I also have a centro de salud across the street. I bought a car here but don't travel much as I have 15,000 kms after three years. Some long trips and drives to the supermarkets and shopping malls is all. Traffic here in Xalapa is notoriously horrid, so I rarely drive to el centro. Often, I walk the two blocks to a supermarket depending on how long is my shopping list. Outside of food, my biggest expense is cable for TV and Internet. I have a two room apartment with bath. The kitchen sink is outside. I occupy one of three apartments in the rear of a large lot filled with trees, a few chickens and a mad rabbit. My neighbors in the other apartments are my friends (two are Mexican and the other is Japanese) along with the dueño and dueña. The dueño's daughter and her husband will come over once or twice a week and bring their children who call me Tio Juanito. I have this for 1,100 pesos a month.


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## mickisue1

Joaquin, You most assuredly would not save money with Medicare, because your premiums would kill you, not to mention the deductibles and coinsurance. Don't even mention the cost of prescription meds when you hit the "doughnut hole", or the extra premium for that coverage.

Here: Medicare costs at a glance | Medicare.gov is a website from the government, outlining your costs. In a nutshell: MUCH more than you are paying now.


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## joaquinx

mickisue1 said:


> Joaquin, You most assuredly would not save money with Medicare, because your premiums would kill you, not to mention the deductibles and coinsurance. Don't even mention the cost of prescription meds when you hit the "doughnut hole", or the extra premium for that coverage.
> 
> Here: Medicare costs at a glance | Medicare.gov is a website from the government, outlining your costs. In a nutshell: MUCH more than you are paying now.


Thanks for the link. Ouch, or rather OUCH. I think that I'll stay where I'm at.


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## Shoes

surfrider said:


> point taken - how you wish to live in Mexico is based upon how much money you want or have to spend. But no where in the states could you live on the same amount of money with the same life style as in Mexico... regardless of the amount.


Si this is a good thing right?


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## zhenders

*Survival*

I have to say, I think more or less everyone who has posted here is definitely exaggerating the meaning of "survival".

To put things into context, the minimum wage in Mexico right now is around 67 pesos / DAY. People don't live well here in general, but lets talk about "survival", eh?

I live in Puebla; as cities in Mexico go, it isn't cheap, but it isn't the most expensive. Currently, my expenses are as follows:

$1,650 -- Rent; dormitory-style (5 private bedrooms, shared common areas)
- All utilities included

$3000 -- Food; this is far more than I need to spend, but I eat breakfast and lunch out a few times a week ($35/breakfast, $40/lunch)

$1500 -- Extras (drinks, going out, etc -- covers are 20-50 pesos, beers are 12-30 pesos; museums; buses/taxis (usually buses -- taxis eat your cash!), cinema, etc)

So my current budget sits at around $6150 pesos -- and I think it would be excessive to call this survival: drop the food budget down to $2000/month and the extras to $500, and I'd say you're approaching it. I've been told for what I rent, my apartment is expensive -- I've found others in the 800-1200 peso range, but I really like my location.

So expat "survival" in a big city means, I would argue, around $4000/month. Perhaps many of you think that's unreasonable, but really, "survival" should mean just that!

I would say at $6000 pesos a month I live comfortably; $10000 pesos/month is pretty much upper-middle-class here (bearing in mind that there isn't really a "true" middle class -- it's fifty shades of poor and 2-3 shades of stinking rich, comparatively).

Look around. If you want to survive and you know a little spanish, you'd be surprised how comfortable life can be for $500 USD/month.


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## Isla Verde

I wonder how old you are. At my age (68), living in a dormitory-style residence holds no charm. I need my own apartment with my own stuff around me and don't mind paying for it. I must spend around $12,000 a month on rent, utilities, food, entertainment and medical expenses and don't consider myself living an upper-middle class existence in any way, shape or form. Maybe life is lots more expensive in Puebla than it is in Mexico City.


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## johnmex

6,000 pesos a month doesn't even cover tuition for my 2 grade school kids...

6,000 pesos every 2 months wouldn't keep our pantry and fridge full (a family of 4)...

6,000 pesos every 4 months wouldn't cover my CFE bill...

To each, their own. We spend a lot, but we live comfortably.


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## zhenders

Don't misunderstand -- truly, I understand that for most expats, it's neither comfortable nor ideal to live on that little -- but with the understanding that at the beginning of this thread in particular there was discussion with regards to survival, I think it's important to address... Well, survival!

Now, it's certainly true to say that the budget I described is minimalist; I am fortunate to need no prescription medication at this time, and I have no children. Certainly, $6000/m doesn't even BEGIN to cut it for families -- relative to everything else, private schools here are incredibly expensive, and are practically the only real option!

Certainly, shared-quarters living is not for everyone; I miss very much having my own residence -- it's been quite an adjustment, and I look forward in the future to a private home where I can actually comfortably cook three meals a day! -- but my post was not by any measure trying to say this budget is for everyone -- merely, it is what is possible -- what is survivable! 

I probably opened up a rather impossible can of worms talking about class in Mexico -- the thing is, the difference between the poor and the wealthy is so extreme and the middle class so blurry and nearly non-existent that it's almost impossible to call one lifestyle "this" or "that"; I Imagine it's a matter of perspective.

For one thing, in El DF and Puebla both, it possible for the most part to live within a particular class zone and barely ever interact with other neighborhoods; the divisions of wealth in terms of neighborhoods are often even more stark here than in large cities in the states. For example, the neighborhood I live in is very much down-town Puebla -- which is to say, a great majority of the people I interact with sustain themselves on perhaps 1/2 of what I do. The poverty is ever-present and very real. With that said, while I could never call my lifestyle "middle-class" by US standards (the storage unit holding all of my books and bookshelves in the states is approximately the size of my room), in terms of Mexican standards of living, I have a relatively comfortable and a bit better-than-typical working person's lifestyle.

I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here -- to each their own, certainly! -- but for the adventurous single person who perhaps enjoys spending the majority of their time out in the city and sees their house as a small, quiet retreat in which to spend mostly sleeping hours and meals, my budget is quite doable. A final note: house mates in Mexicp are -- in general -- far more pleasant than American house mates! Because having house mates isn't just something you do when you go to college (as it usually is in the states), people are quite a bit more pleasant, decent and respectful; it's s wonderful cultural difference that I think is important to consider, because it can mean 2-3k in savings monthly!

/enormous post


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## Heyduke

I think it also depends on where you want to live. I live in a new modern house with a yard. I also drive a truck. My utilities are around $400.00 mx. I live as good as I did in the states on 1,200 US a month. Everything I am reading here sounds very expensive.


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## Longford

Heyduke said:


> I think it also depends on where you want to live. I live in a new modern house with a yard. I also drive a truck. My utilities are around $400.00 mx. I live as good as I did in the states on 1,200 US a month. Everything I am reading here sounds very expensive.


Don't you own two homes in Mexico, with no mortgage? And a truck that's paid-for? You don't sound like the average expat considering a move to Mexico, or even one living in Mexico.


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## Longford

zhenders said:


> Look around. If you want to survive and you know a little spanish, you'd be surprised how comfortable life can be for $500 USD/month.


Well said. :clap2:


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## Detailman

But well said zhenders! 

PS. - (Whoops! Hadn't read down to Longford's comment before I made mine.) Plagiarism!!


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## surfrider

Detailman said:


> But well said zhenders!
> 
> PS. - (Whoops! Hadn't read down to Longford's comment before I made mine.) Plagiarism!!


But I think that makes a very good point. If you plan to purchase a home, a truck/car solar system what ever all those pre expenses have to do with your monthly output and what you can survive on here in Mexico. 
There was a post about rent vs purchase a while back and there were good and bad points pointed out for each. However, if you do invest money then your monthly output is less and I personally think your personal comfort is better.
We did purchase a truck and a house and they are both paid for. But my goal is to live here on 1,200. for two with medical drugs included. a month. I think I will be able to pull this off only because I did have the cash to purchase. We live in the country and with dirt roads etc, not by any means middle class area. House next door is cement with no windows and doors - just openings and curtains. However, we did find a well built home in this area for what we could afford. The weather is very difficult to deal with four months of the year but it is where we can afford to purchase. So I put a/c in and will have to pay the cost monthly for that but it will deal with the weather. Still with the cost of the a/c we should be able to pull this off on 1,200 usd a month for two including medicine. 
And that will only be possible because we had cash coming into the picture to purchase.


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## Barefootedone

If a single American woman was hoping to spend a year or so, perhaps in a smaller apartment somewhere along the coast in Q Roo, what might be an average monthly budget?

Thank you, BFO


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## RVGRINGO

You will need a residence visa. See your nearest Mexican consulate for requirements to qualify and how to apply. That is your first financial hurdle.
Then, look to where you want to settle and plan your timing. If approved for a visa, you will have 6 months to get to Mexico and then 30 days to start the final process with INM. It can take a few months, so plan on staying put until it is issued.

Meanwhile ..... WELCOME.


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## Marishka

RVGRINGO said:


> You will need a residence visa. See your nearest Mexican consulate for requirements to qualify and how to apply. That is your first financial hurdle.


A single person has to have a monthly income of $25,904 MXN ($2,049.47 USD at the current exchange rate) for a _Residente Temporal_ visa, and $32,380 MXN ($2,561.99 USD) for a _Residente Permanente _visa. So, depending on the type of visa you get, you'll have to have a monthly income of around $2,000 or $2,500 a month.

I would think that a single woman could live in a small apartment just about anywhere in Mexico on the amounts now required for residency visas. I'd be interested to know if anyone here lives in a place in Mexico where that is not the case.


----------



## Longford

Barefootedone said:


> If a single American woman was hoping to spend a year or so, perhaps in a smaller apartment somewhere along the coast in Q Roo, what might be an average monthly budget?
> 
> Thank you, BFO


There is no one "average monthly budget" which applies to all. Budgets vary widely because of differences in personal lifestsyles. You can probably find an apartment or small house for the peso-equivalent of less than US$200 a month. You could eat for US$100 a month (tortillas, rice, beans and the occassional pieces of chicken). The living space can be cooled by an overhead fan. You can use an inexpensive cellular telephone for communication and internet cafes for emails. You can do many things inexpensively. The question for you is, what's your lifestyle, needs and wants? Only you can answer those things and only by visiting the area, a familiarization trip, or two, will you have the answers to the questions as they apply to your situation. There are umpteen prior discussions on this forum which discuss this issue, so my suggestion is that you take the time to read through them to cull the information you find helpful. Best of luck.


----------



## Isla Verde

Marishka said:


> A single person has to have a monthly income of $25,904 MXN ($2,049.47 USD at the current exchange rate) for a _Residente Temporal_ visa, and $32,380 MXN ($2,561.99 USD) for a _Residente Permanente _visa. So, depending on the type of visa you get, you'll have to have a monthly income of around $2,000 or $2,500 a month.
> 
> I would think that a single woman could live in a small apartment just about anywhere in Mexico on the amounts now required for residency visas. I'd be interested to know if anyone here lives in a place in Mexico where that is not the case.


I live on much less than either of those amounts in a small apartment in a nice area of Mexico City.


----------



## surfrider

Two of us live on 24,000. a year.


----------



## joaquinx

12,000 USD a year which includes all my medications.


----------



## 1happykamper

I am single, no pets, no smoking, eat out 50% of my meals, live in San Miguel de Allende and have a gorgeous 1 bedroom furnished apartment and a maid 6 days a week.

This great lifestyle cost me $1,600 each month. It could be waaaaay less.


----------



## joaquinx

1happykamper said:


> I am single, no pets, no smoking, eat out 50% of my meals, live in San Miguel de Allende and have a gorgeous 1 bedroom furnished apartment and a maid 6 days a week.
> 
> This great lifestyle cost me $1,600 each month. It could be waaaaay less.


You need a maid 6 days a week in a one bedroom? Mine comes every two months.


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> You need a maid 6 days a week in a one bedroom? Mine comes every two months.


I am my own maid, which could be why my apartment isn't as clean as it could be!


----------



## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> I am my own maid, which could be why my apartment isn't as clean as it could be!


My maid comes with a front-end loader and a power hose. She really needs to come every month as my wet mopping isn't as good as it once was.


----------



## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> My maid comes with a front-end loader and a power hose. She really needs to come every month as my wet mopping isn't as good as it once was.


----------



## adoborepublic

I so love this topic!


----------



## Travlin'Shoes

I'm new here...Have read through all 27 pages of comments and decided to join the EpatForum.

Glad to see a few recent posts. The Thread was started so long ago I was afraid there wouldn't be anything recent here.

This is the only Thread I've read so far. It gets kind of side-tracked and goofy at times (two electric meters, etc.), but I can deal with that because it has some really great information, too.

Having lost my mom 6 months ago after taking care of her the better part of 3 years, I'm ready for a change! I have no wife or kids and am ready for some new adventure.

I think a new life, in a new country, would be a good thing! I lived in Germany a couple years around 1970, so I know things are different in other places, and I think I still can adapt to that. I wish I'd paid more attention to my Spanish teachers though!

Income requirements, and what people actually live on, seem to be all over the place. I've seen Mexican government guidelines from $1,500.00 to $2,500.00 to qualify for a visa.

My Social Security is very little, about $1,000.00 US. However, I have other assets and a house I could rent out (but would rather sell). Do the authorities look at that, and how long it would carry you?

This is not going to be a fast move. I have decided I need to find a place I'm comfortable with, climate-wise and socially, too. Living in Nevada, I'm used to the dry heat of the desert, and while the lowland coastal areas are enticing, I'm fearful of the humidity. The highland cities are beautiful, but I worry about freezing to death at 75 degrees! I don't know about the deserts of the northern part of the country...do I need to be mindful of the drug trafficing, etc. 

I've thought of buying a van or motor home to check out the different areas of Mexico, but the inexpensive, luxurious bus system sounds like it might be a much better option. Probably less expensive, certainly less stressful, and I can always rent a car if I need to go someplace they don't.

However, I just happened to think I have a dog that probably couldn't ride the bus.

Long post, lots of uncertainty.

I would welcome any and all comments on the issues I've brought up.


----------



## Isla Verde

Travlin'Shoes said:


> I'm new here...Have read through all 27 pages of comments and decided to join the EpatForum.
> 
> Glad to see a few recent posts. The Thread was started so long ago I was afraid there wouldn't be anything recent here.
> 
> This is the only Thread I've read so far. It gets kind of side-tracked and goofy at times (two electric meters, etc.), but I can deal with that because it has some really great information, too.
> 
> Having lost my mom 6 months ago after taking care of her the better part of 3 years, I'm ready for a change! I have no wife or kids and am ready for some new adventure.
> 
> I think a new life, in a new country, would be a good thing! I lived in Germany a couple years around 1970, so I know things are different in other places, and I think I still can adapt to that. I wish I'd paid more attention to my Spanish teachers though!
> 
> Income requirements, and what people actually live on, seem to be all over the place. I've seen Mexican government guidelines from $1,500.00 to $2,500.00 to qualify for a visa.
> 
> My Social Security is very little, about $1,000.00 US. However, I have other assets and a house I could rent out (but would rather sell). Do the authorities look at that, and how long it would carry you?
> 
> This is not going to be a fast move. I have decided I need to find a place I'm comfortable with, climate-wise and socially, too. Living in Nevada, I'm used to the dry heat of the desert, and while the lowland coastal areas are enticing, I'm fearful of the humidity. The highland cities are beautiful, but I worry about freezing to death at 75 degrees! I don't know about the deserts of the northern part of the country...do I need to be mindful of the drug trafficing, etc.
> 
> I've thought of buying a van or motor home to check out the different areas of Mexico, but the inexpensive, luxurious bus system sounds like it might be a much better option. Probably less expensive, certainly less stressful, and I can always rent a car if I need to go someplace they don't.
> 
> However, I just happened to think I have a dog that probably couldn't ride the bus.
> 
> Long post, lots of uncertainty.
> 
> I would welcome any and all comments on the issues I've brought up.



Welcome to Mexico and to the Mexico Forum! If you like, you could start your own thread, rather than continuing on this rather long one that began over two years ago. Let me know if you'd like to do that, and I can take care of the details for you.


----------



## BirthAbroad

Travlin'Shoes said:


> I'm new here...Have read through all 27 pages of comments and decided to join the EpatForum.
> 
> Glad to see a few recent posts. The Thread was started so long ago I was afraid there wouldn't be anything recent here.
> 
> This is the only Thread I've read so far. It gets kind of side-tracked and goofy at times (two electric meters, etc.), but I can deal with that because it has some really great information, too.
> 
> Having lost my mom 6 months ago after taking care of her the better part of 3 years, I'm ready for a change! I have no wife or kids and am ready for some new adventure.
> 
> I think a new life, in a new country, would be a good thing! I lived in Germany a couple years around 1970, so I know things are different in other places, and I think I still can adapt to that. I wish I'd paid more attention to my Spanish teachers though!
> 
> Income requirements, and what people actually live on, seem to be all over the place. I've seen Mexican government guidelines from $1,500.00 to $2,500.00 to qualify for a visa.
> 
> My Social Security is very little, about $1,000.00 US. However, I have other assets and a house I could rent out (but would rather sell). Do the authorities look at that, and how long it would carry you?
> 
> This is not going to be a fast move. I have decided I need to find a place I'm comfortable with, climate-wise and socially, too. Living in Nevada, I'm used to the dry heat of the desert, and while the lowland coastal areas are enticing, I'm fearful of the humidity. The highland cities are beautiful, but I worry about freezing to death at 75 degrees! I don't know about the deserts of the northern part of the country...do I need to be mindful of the drug trafficing, etc.
> 
> I've thought of buying a van or motor home to check out the different areas of Mexico, but the inexpensive, luxurious bus system sounds like it might be a much better option. Probably less expensive, certainly less stressful, and I can always rent a car if I need to go someplace they don't.
> 
> However, I just happened to think I have a dog that probably couldn't ride the bus.
> 
> Long post, lots of uncertainty.
> 
> I would welcome any and all comments on the issues I've brought up.


Welcome to the forum.  I too moved to Mexico to start a new life and I can relate. I actually came here to Mexico when I was 19, right after leaving a mental hospital (perhaps too personal for some to know about but it makes my situation more relatable). I had moved back in forth between the US and Mexico since I was 3 years old, so for me it was like coming back home in a sense. I think I am one of few active Chihuahua expats in this forum and I can vouch for its climate (it was 102 F today!) Narcos as they are called here are not a problem. You can live a very comfortable life up north here. I used to live in what is probably one of the worst parts of Chihuahua known as Riberas del Sacramento. A few months after I left two major narcs were caught not far from where I lived. Although most expats here live in decent areas without narc neighbors, it shows that if you don't mess with them, they will Not mess with you. The public bus system has had a major revamping in the capital city. In Juarez as well, but tbh, I think the capital has been holding fundings to themselves. We have a central bus trunk known as the Vivebus that has AC and wifi in each bus. Wait times are usually no more than 5 minutes. Smaller routes have varying bus conditions and wait times. Fares are indeed very cheap. In Chihuahua as a state, they're 6 pesos or 3 for elders, students and indigenous. Here in the capital your second ride is 4, and your 3rd is free. Surviving here isn't hard. My wife, child and I pay $2500 for a furnished apartment with Internet, cable, and water included. You can find similarly priced places in the classifieds. Real estate is much cheaper than in Guadalajara orDF. Food is more expensive. A montado can cost 45+ pesos at food stands here. Wherever you decide to settle I hope you enjoy it!


----------



## adoborepublic

BirthAbroad said:


> My wife, child and I pay $2500 for a furnished apartment with Internet, cable, and water included. You can find similarly priced places in the classifieds.


was that in pesos or usd?


----------



## chicois8

Is a montado a kin to a torta?


----------



## Travlin'Shoes

Isla Verde - That would be great if you'd help me get another thread started.

BirthAbroad - Thanks for the welcome, and reassurance about living amongst the narcos. I've heard that as long as you don't live a flashy life you'll probably be fine. There are parts of just about every US city that are just better avoided, too.


----------



## Isla Verde

Travlin'Shoes said:


> Isla Verde - That would be great if you'd help me get another thread started.


What would you like to call the new thread?


----------



## Travlin'Shoes

How about:

Where I live in Mexico, How I live, & What it costs

This is the essence of why I read the 27 pages of this thread.


----------



## BirthAbroad

adoborepublic said:


> was that in pesos or usd?


That number is in MX Pesos. My wife and I sat down to do the math and we calculated that if we subtracted the Cablemas package and water bill our rent by itself would be around 1500 pesos. We also lived in a large two story house before with a bodega garage and terrace. The rent was 1800 pesos (a month). 

A montado is similar to a quesadilla. It is made with a flour tortilla, sometimes twice the size of a normal flour tortilla, and with a slice of cheese inside. However the heart of the montado is what's known as its "guisado," such as picadillo, chicharrón or carne deshebrada with salsa rojo or verde. My wife is from Guanajuato and I think she said that they only really exist in northern Mexico.


----------



## Isla Verde

Travlin'Shoes said:


> How about:
> 
> Where I live in Mexico, How I live, & What it costs
> 
> This is the essence of why I read the 27 pages of this thread.


OK. I'll take care of it soon.


----------



## Travlin'Shoes

Isla -

Thanks!


----------



## adoborepublic

BirthAbroad said:


> That number is in MX Pesos. My wife and I sat down to do the math and we calculated that if we subtracted the Cablemas package and water bill our rent by itself would be around 1500 pesos. We also lived in a large two story house before with a bodega garage and terrace. The rent was 1800 pesos (a month).


that was really cheap! except for the prices of food, eh? so, if one cooks, hows the food budget gonna be?


----------



## Isla Verde

Travlin'Shoes said:


> Isla -
> 
> Thanks!


You're very welcome!


----------



## BirthAbroad

adoborepublic said:


> that was really cheap! except for the prices of food, eh? so, if one cooks, hows the food budget gonna be?


Well we get our stuff from a grocery store rather than the cheaper open-air markets. Because we live in a desert, many products like produce and especially seafood have to be imported and are more expensive and harder to find fresh. Most packaged things are similarly priced to the rest of Mexico (look at S Mart prices to get a sense). The only other difference may be that beef is slightly cheaper here in CHIH. You can always save money by going to a corner abarrotes or pulga. We just go to a grocery store because it is half a block away.


----------



## Mextrav46

surfrider said:


> Let me ask a question about rent on this site.
> I have trouble finding places to rent for good prices, but due to my own level of ignorance, I do not speak or read Spanish. So is it a fair assumption to say that if you know someone in the area who will help you with finding cheep rentals or you are able to negotiate price in Spanish you get a better price and you are able to find rentals easier?


My experience is to go to a neighborhood you like, in whatever city, find a small restaurant and ask the owner/waiter if he/she can help you find a rental. Most rental owners pay a commission to anyone who finds them a renter. It has worked well for me for years,


----------



## Isla Verde

Mextrav46 said:


> My experience is to go to a neighborhood you like, in whatever city, find a small restaurant and ask the owner/waiter if he/she can help you find a rental. Most rental owners pay a commission to anyone who finds them a renter. It has worked well for me for years,


That could work for newcomers to Mexico who speak Spanish, which is not the case with surfrider, who posed the question you are responding to.


----------



## Mextrav46

Isla Verde said:


> That could work for newcomers to Mexico who speak Spanish, which is not the case with surfrider, who posed the question you are responding to.


I disagree. All one would need would be a one sentence question (written out as a script) that said I am looking for an apartment in this neighborhood, furnished for a long term rental, can you help me? and a dictionary. If someone can't do even that they should just move to Lake Chapala and forget about living in Mexico.


----------



## Mextrav46

Isla Verde said:


> I live on much less than either of those amounts in a small apartment in a nice area of Mexico City.


But could you qualify for residency under today's requirement? I couldn't and thank my lucky stars I applied before the new guidelines. I meet more and more new expats who are arriving on tourist visas, busing to the nearest border every 180 days and living comfortably on under $1000 USD a month.hwell:


----------



## sparks

Mextrav46 said:


> living comfortably on under $1000 USD a month.


That's a very spartan 'comfortable'


----------



## Isla Verde

Mextrav46 said:


> But could you qualify for residency under today's requirement? I couldn't and thank my lucky stars I applied before the new guidelines. I meet more and more new expats who are arriving on tourist visas, busing to the nearest border every 180 days and living comfortably on under $1000 USD a month.hwell:


I've been lucky too! When I arrived in Mexico in 2007, I didn't have enough retirement income to qualify for an FM3 and didn't have a job here. That's why I hired a lawyer to help me apply for an FM3 with permission to work as a freelance English teacher, which had no minimum income requirement. And now that I have _Residente Permanente _status, I don't need to worry about any of that anymore!


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> That's a very spartan 'comfortable'


I live on that in Mexico City and my lifestyle isn't all that spartan, at least, not by my standards.


----------



## sparks

Isla Verde said:


> I live on that in Mexico City and my lifestyle isn't all that spartan, at least, not by my standards.


Maybe in a small apartment where you don't need heating or cooling, cook something for yourself a least once a day, don't have a car with yearly fees, insurance and mechanical upkeep, have basic TV and Internet, don't travel much if at all, have reasonable fees to withdraw your money.

Also don't drink or smoke, don't help out poorer Mexican friends now and then or volunteer for "do-good" programs


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> Maybe in a small apartment where you don't need heating or cooling, cook something for yourself a least once a day, don't have a car with yearly fees, insurance and mechanical upkeep, have basic TV and Internet, don't travel much if at all, have reasonable fees to withdraw your money.
> 
> Also don't drink or smoke, don't help out poorer Mexican friends now and then or volunteer for "do-good" programs


My apartment is small, but big enough for me, and a small apartment is easier to keep reasonably clean than a more spacious one. In Mexico City there is no need to heat or cool your home - I do have a couple of small fans I turn on during the hotter months, though this year I haven't needed to do that very much, and I do have a tiny space heater I use in December and January at night. Sometimes I cook, sometimes I don't. I don't have a car, in fact, I haven't owned one since 1969! No TV, but I do have a landline phone, a non-smart phone and an excellent internet connection. For health insurance, I have just signed up with IMSS, but go to private doctors for checkups and dental and eye care. It's true that I don't travel as much as I'd like outside of Mexico City, but that's due more to inertia than to a lack of money. My US SS check is directly deposited to my Mexican bank account, so there are no fees to pay when withdrawing money. I'm one of those fortunate people who has never smoked anything and have never been much of a drinker, except for really good coffee. I don't have any "poorer" Mexican friends, and if I did I can't imagine them asking me for money. Thanks for asking!


----------



## Mextrav46

sparks said:


> Maybe in a small apartment where you don't need heating or cooling, cook something for yourself a least once a day, don't have a car with yearly fees, insurance and mechanical upkeep, have basic TV and Internet, don't travel much if at all, have reasonable fees to withdraw your money.
> 
> Also don't drink or smoke, don't help out poorer Mexican friends now and then or volunteer for "do-good" programs


Nice small apartment 1/2 block from the beach, A/C in the summer, but have a great sea breeze, eat well, drink wine daily, go out with friends to dinner and or music once a week or more, internet is 5MPS, and last I heard volunteering time was more satisfying than money and more respected by the local community.:fish:


----------



## sparks

I just think it's extremely misleading to start any "newbee" thinking they can live in Mexico on less than $1000us. That sounds too much like those 1950-60's ads about retire to Ajijic on $500 a month.

You 2 are atypical of what 80-90% gringos want to do. I don't have any rent and cut many corners but can't imagine less than $1500 a month


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> I just think it's extremely misleading to start any "newbee" thinking they can live in Mexico on less than $1000us. That sounds too much like those 1950-60's ads about retire to Ajijic on $500 a month.
> 
> You 2 are atypical of what 80-90% gringos want to do. I don't have any rent and cut many corners but can't imagine less than $1500 a month


Do you have any statistics to back up your assertion? How do you know what kind of life style 80-90% of ****** expats expect to have in Mexico? You couldn't live on less than $1500 a month without paying rent? I find that as hard to believe as you find it hard to believe that I live happily on under $1000 a month including rent. You are talking about expenses for one person, correct?


----------



## Mextrav46

sparks said:


> I just think it's extremely misleading to start any "newbee" thinking they can live in Mexico on less than $1000us. That sounds too much like those 1950-60's ads about retire to Ajijic on $500 a month.
> 
> You 2 are atypical of what 80-90% gringos want to do. I don't have any rent and cut many corners but can't imagine less than $1500 a month


I think you may be out of touch with the statistics of what retiring gringos CAN do, rather than what they want to do. I know many living happy and fulfilling lives on that amount in Mexico and thrilled with the quality of life they can have that they could never have in the 'states.
"Social Security is the sole source of income for about one in five (21 percent) of people aged 65 and older. Certain subgroups are particularly reliant on Social Security. Of those age 65 and older, Social Security is the sole source of income for 36 percent of Hispanics and African Americans, 25 percent of Asian and Pacific Islanders, 19 percent of whites, and 20 percent of unmarried women.


----------



## BirthAbroad

sparks said:


> I just think it's extremely misleading to start any "newbee" thinking they can live in Mexico on less than $1000us. That sounds too much like those 1950-60's ads about retire to Ajijic on $500 a month.
> 
> You 2 are atypical of what 80-90% gringos want to do. I don't have any rent and cut many corners but can't imagine less than $1500 a month


There is a difference between what an expat "can" live on here and what you can "imagine" an expat to live off of. Perhaps you and I are speaking from very different paradigms because I probably used to make what your "poorer Mexican friends" make. Living in Mexico can take many forms. If a Mexican can live here with less than 1000 USD a month than it is silly and disconnected to expect that an expat living here cannot live on such sum. I moved to Mexico to blend in with its people (unfortunately only as much as a white man can), and to live a comfortable life with my family without being a part of the growing socio-economic division of the poor and rich. It sounds disconnected and fringed on insulting to think we cannot even afford decent Internet connections at such an income.


----------



## vantexan

sparks said:


> I just think it's extremely misleading to start any "newbee" thinking they can live in Mexico on less than $1000us. That sounds too much like those 1950-60's ads about retire to Ajijic on $500 a month.
> 
> You 2 are atypical of what 80-90% gringos want to do. I don't have any rent and cut many corners but can't imagine less than $1500 a month


We found it possible to cover the basics in San Miguel for a little less than $1000. Throw in healthcare needs, occasional new clothes, a trip or two, going back to the States to visit family, buying things we'd like to have like electronics, catching a new movie, eating out, etc and we could probably have doubled that amount. That's only $24k a year, not an astronomical amount but it goes to quality of life, and certainly for the money get more bang for the buck than in the States. It comes down to how austere one wants to live. Maybe that's not the right word because some here are very content on a $1000 a month but middle class Americans used to living a midde class American lifestyle might find it tough. Most Americans probably don't have a big family in Mexico to live with to share costs so it's not practical to expect costs similar to what Mexican families deal with and many of them do live what we'd consider an austere life. I found for entertainment's sake just walking around observing and admiring was fun. Others might dream of regular fishing trips on the ocean or some other expensive hobby. Big spending Americans and others are contributing to the economy. Just my opinion, but whatever you spend a month you are going to get more value for your money. You just shouldn't expect $1000 a month will get you a very nice home with a maid, living like the proverbial king that hucksters lure you with.


----------



## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> It comes down to how austere one wants to live. Maybe that's not the right word because some here are very content on a $1000 a month but middle class Americans used to living a midde class American lifestyle might find it tough.


It also depends on how you define "austere": for many Americans and Canadians, living as I do without a car (who wants to drive in Mexico City?), in a building without an elevator, without a TV (oh, the horror!), and without a bunch of other things would seem austere. One reason I'm happy here is that the way I lived in the States, in some ways, was not that different from how I live here (though I did have a TV).



> Most Americans probably don't have a big family in Mexico to live with to share costs so it's not practical to expect costs similar to what Mexican families deal with and many of them do live what we'd consider an austere life.


This is an excellent point. Most Mexicans I know, even young unmarried adults with good jobs, either live with their families or still depend on them a lot for help and support.



> You just shouldn't expect $1000 a month will get you a very nice home with a maid, living like the proverbial king that hucksters lure you with.


Again, what constitutes a very nice home depends on what you had back home. As far as having a maid is concerned, do you mean a live-in maid (only common here among the very well-to-do) or someone who comes in during the day (or maybe once a week) to tidy up and do heavy cleaning? Even on a budget of $1000 a month, the latter is certainly affordable.


----------



## sparks

So this is a rather minimal required list for me with many estimates. It also includes no rent which I assume averages $250-500. If you are a renter do you also wait for the landlord to repair minor things or even paint ... I didn't because it may not get done.

Car
Insurance - 25
Gas - 100+
Upkeep - 25
License and Reg - 10

House
No Rent for me
Pay as I go Medical (?)
Internet - 50
Phone - 20
Gas 25
Electric 30
Water (street) 13
Water in bottle 5
Repairs - 50

Grocery shoping (includes soaps and paper) - 220
Alcohol - inhome and out - 150
Eat out 100

Yearly vacation trip in Mexico @ month 30
Yearly trip/flight up north @ month 150

Total about $1003 (plus the unexpected)

Then there are the many kids birthdays, quinceaneras, school fees, school materials and school clothes. I'm close to neighbors so some help expected.

Save the dogs, save the kids, save the old folks donations .... over the ****** season


----------



## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> Then there are the many kids birthdays, quinceaneras, school fees, school materials and school clothes. I'm close to neighbors so some help expected.


Why is some help expected? How close are you to these neighbors? It sounds to me like you're being taken advantage of, but if it makes you feel good to help them out, that's obviously your business. I don't have any neighbors who need this kind of help, and if they did, they know that I'm not in a position to help them out financially.


----------



## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> It also depends on how you define "austere": for many Americans and Canadians, living as I do without a car (who wants to drive in Mexico City?), in a building without an elevator, without a TV (oh, the horror!), and without a bunch of other things would seem austere. One reason I'm happy here is that the way I lived in the States, in some ways, was not that different from how I live here (though I did have a TV).


You came from New York City, the only city in the U.S. where the majority of residents don't own a car. Most Americans not only own cars, but it's a major part of their identity. I did without a car for many years and am used to walking. A major plus to me is most Mexican cities are either very walkable or have excellent, affordable transportation. I hope I didn't sound like I was denigrating your lifestyle with the word austere. It's just to those who see Mexico as a chance to enjoy "the good life" on less, what would be comfortable to us would seem austere to them. They'd want not only a car, but a quality vehicle. They'd want gourmet meals in fine restaurants, and often. They'd want to live in a gated community or luxury high rise, surrounded by people with similar outlooks. More power to them, but they'd never be satisfied with what $1000 gives them. Of course if they have limited income they could certainly learn to live on less. But "living like a king?" It's a phrase I've seen numerous times on expat forums for a lot of countries. There was a time where $600 a month in Mexico would have been enough for a couple to be comfortable. A $1000 back then might have provided luxury. But not today, and it seems some asking about $1000 a month have probably heard they could live extraordinarily well for that much.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> You came from New York City, the only city in the U.S. where the majority of residents don't own a car. Most Americans not only own cars, but it's a major part of their identity. I did without a car for many years and am used to walking. A major plus to me is most Mexican cities are either very walkable or have excellent, affordable transportation. I hope I didn't sound like I was denigrating your lifestyle with the word austere. It's just to those who see Mexico as a chance to enjoy "the good life" on less, what would be comfortable to us would seem austere to them. They'd want not only a car, but a quality vehicle. They'd want gourmet meals in fine restaurants, and often. They'd want to live in a gated community or luxury high rise, surrounded by people with similar outlooks. ...


I'm not from New York City, but I have lived there as well as in Philadelphia (where I was born), Boston, and Milwaukee and Madison, Wisconsin, all places where you don't need a car to survive. I know I'm not a "typical American" because I have led a car-free life ever since leaving the suburbs of Philly, where I spent my childhood and adolescence. What you describe as "the good life" doesn't appeal to me at all!


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## TundraGreen

vantexan said:


> You came from New York City, the only city in the U.S. where the majority of residents don't own a car. Most Americans not only own cars, but it's a major part of their identity. I did without a car for many years and am used to walking. A major plus to me is most Mexican cities are either very walkable or have excellent, affordable transportation.
> *I hope I didn't sound like I was denigrating your lifestyle with the word austere. *
> It's just to those who see Mexico as a chance to enjoy "the good life" on less, what would be comfortable to us would seem austere to them. They'd want not only a car, but a quality vehicle. They'd want gourmet meals in fine restaurants, and often. They'd want to live in a gated community or luxury high rise, surrounded by people with similar outlooks. More power to them, but they'd never be satisfied with what $1000 gives them. Of course if they have limited income they could certainly learn to live on less. But "living like a king?" It's a phrase I've seen numerous times on expat forums for a lot of countries. There was a time where $600 a month in Mexico would have been enough for a couple to be comfortable. A $1000 back then might have provided luxury. But not today, and it seems some asking about $1000 a month have probably heard they could live extraordinarily well for that much.


This is nitpicking, but using the word "austere", implies a lesser lifestyle, not something someone would choose if they had any choice. However, many see it as an advantage to be able to get away from or do without many, maybe most, of the things you mention, gated communities, a car, etc.

From dictionary.com
austere 
1. severe in manner or appearance; uncompromising; strict; forbidding: an austere teacher. 
2. rigorously self-disciplined and severely moral; ascetic; abstinent: the austere quality of life in the convent. 
3. grave; sober; solemn; serious: an austere manner. 
4. without excess, luxury, or ease; simple; limited; severe: an austere life. 
5. severely simple; without ornament: austere writing.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> I'm not from New York City, but I have lived there as well as in Philadelphia (where I was born), Boston, and Milwaukee and Madison, Wisconsin, all places where you don't need a car to survive. I know I'm not a "typical American" because I have led a car-free life ever since leaving the suburbs of Philly, where I spent my childhood and adolescence. What you describe as "the good life" doesn't appeal to me at all!


Nor me either but many Americans are shooting for such a life and, for some that are struggling in the States, Mexico might represent their best chance to have it.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> This is nitpicking, but using the word "austere", implies a lesser lifestyle, not something someone would choose if they had any choice. However, many see it as an advantage to be able to get away from or do without many, maybe most, of the things you mention, gated communities, a car, etc.
> 
> From dictionary.com
> austere
> 1. severe in manner or appearance; uncompromising; strict; forbidding: an austere teacher.
> 2. rigorously self-disciplined and severely moral; ascetic; abstinent: the austere quality of life in the convent.
> 3. grave; sober; solemn; serious: an austere manner.
> 4. without excess, luxury, or ease; simple; limited; severe: an austere life.
> 5. severely simple; without ornament: austere writing.


Well, none of those definitions fit me or the way I live. I have a baroque soul (my living room walls are profusely decorated with all sorts of pictures, photographs, little mirrors from Oaxaca, and other sorts of _artesanías_) doing its best to be happy on a less than bountiful budget!


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> Nor me either but many Americans are shooting for such a life and, for some that are struggling in the States, Mexico might represent their best chance to have it.


If those are the things that will make them happy, then I have my doubts that they'll be able to make it as expats anywhere in the world, Mexico included.


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## vantexan

TundraGreen said:


> This is nitpicking, but using the word "austere", implies a lesser lifestyle, not something someone would choose if they had any choice. However, many see it as an advantage to be able to get away from or do without many, maybe most, of the things you mention, gated communities, a car, etc.
> 
> From dictionary.com
> austere
> 1. severe in manner or appearance; uncompromising; strict; forbidding: an austere teacher.
> 2. rigorously self-disciplined and severely moral; ascetic; abstinent: the austere quality of life in the convent.
> 3. grave; sober; solemn; serious: an austere manner.
> 4. without excess, luxury, or ease; simple; limited; severe: an austere life.
> 5. severely simple; without ornament: austere writing.


Agreed, but to many of those who live in gated communities, have cars, play golf every day, eat gourmet meals, go sailing and sport fishing, etc, that $1000 a month life sounds austere. They don't think you are really living without all the frills. I'm not advocating it, just saying that if people come to this forum for info thinking they can have all the above on $1000 a month in Mexico because they've been told by someone they could they'll be disappointed. I like to read, greatly enjoyed the atmosphere of San Miguel, my neighborhood, and my apartment. My wife was used to having many choices in a large metro area and liked to experience them. Just having what I found plenty wasn't enough for her. Many come to Mexico happy to live a simpler lifestyle. Many can't handle it and go back home.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> If those are the things that will make them happy, then I have my doubts that they'll be able to make it as expats anywhere in the world, Mexico included.


Wealthy Mexicans do things like drive up to San Miguel for the weekend, live in expensive homes and often have staff, not just one maid. It's all relative to the money you have. Those with $70,000 pensions and Social Security to boot are probably having a great time in Mexico doing things you can't afford. Of course we can say they should live simpler lives and do good deeds with their money but that's not usually the reality.


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## sparks

TundraGreen said:


> This is nitpicking, but using the word "austere", implies a lesser lifestyle, not something someone would choose if they had any choice. ere: an austere life.
> .


No criticism on my part but I think very few Gringos could live in Mexico gracefully on "less than $1000us". Isla Verde may be one that can. 

I don't know anyone that would try


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> Wealthy Mexicans do things like drive up to San Miguel for the weekend, live in expensive homes and often have staff, not just one maid. It's all relative to the money you have. Those with $70,000 pensions and Social Security to boot are probably having a great time in Mexico doing things you can't afford. Of course we can say they should live simpler lives and do good deeds with their money but that's not usually the reality.


That's not what I meant when I wrote "If those are the things that will make them happy, then I have my doubts that they'll be able to make it as expats anywhere in the world, Mexico included". I meant that if the only reason you want to move to Mexico is the "high life" you'll be able to live here, without having any real interest in Mexico and Mexicans (except being able to hire them to clean your house), then it will be very difficult for you to deal with the adjustments all expats have to make, no matter how much money they have.

I resent the fact that you imply that I'm not having a "great time" in Mexico because I don't have a huge retirement income. In any event, most of the things you mention (having an expensive home and so on), hold no interest for me.


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## sparks

Isla Verde said:


> Why is some help expected? How close are you to these neighbors? It sounds to me like you're being taken advantage of, but if it makes you feel good to help them out, that's obviously your business. I don't have any neighbors who need this kind of help, and if they did, they know that I'm not in a position to help them out financially.


Neighbors here live in palapa shacks up to nice 2 story houses - totally intermixed. Some rent and some own. My neighbor was on the small crew that built my house and I was the ride to the hospital for the birth of his youngest.

We only have primary school here and when the disabled son graduated it was walk or no more school. I'm his bus driver.

Also the only other gringos around are here for 5 winter months and the only full-time Gringa left for cooler climates. You have to have someone watching out for you when you get over 70, watch your place when you travel or visit family up north. As far as I'm concerned this family can have my house when I die.

So yes it costs a little to have help for me and the place


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> That's not what I meant when I wrote "If those are the things that will make them happy, then I have my doubts that they'll be able to make it as expats anywhere in the world, Mexico included". I meant that if the only reason you want to move to Mexico is the "high life" you'll be able to live here, without having any real interest in Mexico and Mexicans (except being able to hire them to clean your house), then it will be very difficult for you to deal with the adjustments all expats have to make, no matter how much money they have.
> 
> I resent the fact that you imply that I'm not having a "great time" in Mexico because I don't have a huge retirement income. In any event, most of the things you mention (having an expensive home and so on), hold no interest for me.


I'm not implying that, sorry if you see it that way. I'm saying I enjoyed myself in Mexico living on that amount, but others won't because they'll feel they are missing out on things that $1000 just can't provide. What you feel, and I feel too, is comfortable and enjoyable isn't enough for some people. And some IMO do come to this forum inquiring about living on $1000 a month because they heard they can live extremely well on that amount, not just get by comfortably. And by the way many who have big pensions and live extraordinarily well do love Mexico and it's people very much. They do love that they can have a great time on less than it takes in the States, but they also care about the country and aren't just here to take advantage. And apparently Mexico wants permanent residents who can come down with disposable income if recent income requirements are an indicator.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> I'm not implying that, sorry if you see it that way. I'm saying I enjoyed myself in Mexico living on that amount, but others won't because they'll feel they are missing out on things that $1000 just can't provide. What you feel, and I feel too, is comfortable and enjoyable isn't enough for some people. And some IMO do come to this forum inquiring about living on $1000 a month because they heard they can live extremely well on that amount, not just get by comfortably. And by the way many who have big pensions and live extraordinarily well do love Mexico and it's people very much. They do love that they can have a great time on less than it takes in the States, but they also care about the country and aren't just here to take advantage. And apparently Mexico wants permanent residents who can come down with disposable income if recent income requirements are an indicator.


Where do people hear that they can live a life of luxury for $1000 a month? Whoever is saying that should be sued for publishing misleading information! 

I'm sure that some expats who come here with lots of money and live the life of Riley (whoever he was) also learn to appreciate all the good things we love about Mexico and learn to deal with the not-so-great aspects of life here. My comment was about people whose only interest in relocating to Mexico is financial and who make no effort to learn about their new home beyond figuring out where to go shopping and how to recreate the life they had NOB.


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## chicois8

I love it when folks that have been living down here for many years ask me about things to do and see in the area, I am sure some expats that live in Puerto Vallarta, Lakeside and San Miguel have never been further than the local international airport...........LOL


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## Isla Verde

chicois8 said:


> I love it when folks that have been living down here for many years ask me about things to do and see in the area, I am sure some expats that live in Puerto Vallarta, Lakeside and San Miguel have never been further than the local international airport...........LOL


How sad for them  .


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## makaloco

I'm with Sparks and Vantexan on this. Most of us probably know people who live simply on small budgets (whether in Mexico or elsewhere) and have rich, satisfying lives without feeling particularly deprived. But at risk of stating the obvious, there's all the difference in the world between doing without things by choice or habit and doing without them because you expected to be able to afford them and suddenly find you can't.


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## Mextrav46

makaloco said:


> I'm with Sparks and Vantexan on this. Most of us probably know people who live simply on small budgets (whether in Mexico or elsewhere) and have rich, satisfying lives without feeling particularly deprived. But at risk of stating the obvious, there's all the difference in the world between doing without things by choice or habit and doing without them because you expected to be able to afford them and suddenly find you can't.


My point is that there are many long time Mexico vacationers/lovers who are finding themselves unable to afford much in the states without working until they die and are choosing instead a life in Mexico that gives them much more for their money in quality of life. 
My hope is to let those reading this forum with dreams but small budgets know it is indeed possible and not just a hovel and beans and rice. :ranger:


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> Agreed, but to many of those who live in gated communities, have cars, play golf every day, eat gourmet meals, go sailing and sport fishing, etc, that $1000 a month life sounds austere


People who live the lifestyle described above aren't likely to be attracted to living full-time in Mexico. Very few, I'll suggest. 



> I like to read, greatly enjoyed the atmosphere of San Miguel, my neighborhood, and my apartment.


I share your affection for San Miguel de Allende.



> Many come to Mexico happy to live a simpler lifestyle. Many can't handle it and go back home.


That's been my observation, as well. The successful transition to a different country with a native language and culture different than our own takes a strong, independent person who is firstly confident in his/her own skin. Moving abroad, not just to Mexico but to any country other than our home country ... isn't as "simple" as many people imagine and probably isn't the right thing to do for most people.


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## PanamaJack

Longford said:


> People who live the lifestyle described above aren't likely to be attracted to living full-time in Mexico. Very few, I'll suggest.



I disagree to some extent Longford. I believe in the areas of Puerto Vallarta, Playa del Carmen, much of the Riviera Maya, sections of Cancun and still in Acapulco there are many very wealthy expats that live in gated communities and marinas and enjoy the country club life, exclusive gourmet foods and more. Their numbers might not be as big as in other places, but much bigger than you might think.

I also believe that many expats make too much of a big deal about moving to a foreign country. My relatives arrived on a ship at Ellis Island with everything they owned in a few trunks in the 1930s as did millions others. They started a new life with very little. The majority of expats today are retired and the transition is much easier than those who came to the U.S. in search of a better life. Today expats have telecommunications that give them the opportunity to communicate with loved ones around the world. Technology that gives them instant translations ,albeit not the best, at the stroke of a key. 
The biggest barrier is still the language, but I know many expats that have been in Mexico for 5, 10, 15 years or more that have a very limited conversational grasp on Spanish and still lead very happy lives here. 
The end result is the same here as it is in your homeland - a place to live that is secure that offers what each person wants whether it be Internet, cable television, outdoor recreation, cultural diversion, the arts or just enjoying coffee at the local café. 
Why things are so complicated or made so complicated by many expats is beyond me. The laws are clear on becoming a resident. If ones income is not within the range needed, then living on temporary visas is a personal choice, but why make things so complicated. Each expat has the right to participate as much as they want or as little as they want. 
I know expats in some small communities in Chiapas that are living on US$750 a month. That includes a one bedroom apartment, electricity, cable television, Internet, three meals per day, cultural activities, travel once per month and more.


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## AlanMexicali

Occasional tourist opinión here are so out of touch with facts it appears even that is becoming a major problem to decifer fact from their fiction and those opinions with no basis on experiece other than some Expat sites & Señor Google. IMO :doh:


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## mxfan

Longford said:


> People who live the lifestyle described above aren't likely to be attracted to living full-time in Mexico. Very few, I'll suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> I share your affection for San Miguel de Allende.
> 
> 
> 
> That's been my observation, as well. The successful transition to a different country with a native language and culture different than our own takes a strong, independent person who is firstly confident in his/her own skin. Moving abroad, not just to Mexico but to any country other than our home country ... isn't as "simple" as many people imagine and probably isn't the right thing to do for most people.


This observation of the transition of moving to a different country fits in where my life is now and where I am looking to go. I am in my 3rd year living in Tijuana now which is technically MX but for me it is having one foot on the boat with the other foot on the dock. I can and do cross the border routinely to San Diego for shopping or just a get away. On my motorcycle is a quick and easy crossing. Until very recently, I cared for my son in high school but don't have that responsibility now.

Now I have the ability to venture deeper into MX and I that is why I am on this site. I am learning much from reading comments. 

But the big issue is leaving the dock where my two sons live. They are starting their own lives and call me less now so I am sad but I know it is the process. I think I am in the early withdrawal stage and will adjust to it with time.

Other than that, I have money, health and time and I feel very fortunate. It is a process...


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## Isla Verde

mxfan said:


> Now I have the ability to venture deeper into MX and I that is why I am on this site. I am learning much from reading comments.
> 
> But the big issue is leaving the dock where my two sons live. They are starting their own lives and call me less now so I am sad but I know it is the process. I think I am in the early withdrawal stage and will adjust to it with time.
> 
> Other than that, I have money, health and time and I feel very fortunate. It is a process...


It sounds like it's time for you to plan a few trips to areas of Mexico far away from the US border. You'll find there's a lot more to Mexico than Tijuana!


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## mxfan

Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like it's time for you to plan a few trips to areas of Mexico far away from the US border. You'll find there's a lot more to Mexico than Tijuana!


Yes, I thinks it time too. I have been thinking in the fall. I have visited GDL, Chappala, SMD and some points in between but only for short visits. Now I am able to stay and look at more areas.


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## Isla Verde

mxfan said:


> Yes, I thinks it time too. I have been thinking in the fall. I have visited GDL, Chappala, SMD and some points in between but only for short visits. Now I am able to stay and look at more areas.


Where is SMD - that's one city I've never heard of .

Even if you have no desire to live here, I highly recommend a visit to Mexico City. It is the political, economic and cultural heart of the country, and even a short stay here will teach you a lot about the country.


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## sparks

>>>>> Where is SMD - that's one city I've never heard of .

Unconventional San Miguel maybe ...............


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## Longford

sparks said:


> >>>>> Where is SMD - that's one city I've never heard of .
> 
> Unconventional San Miguel maybe ...............


San Miguel de Allende is sometimes referred to as: SMA or SMdA. I've always used SMA when abbreviating.


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## sparks

Longford said:


> San Miguel de Allende is sometimes referred to as: SMA or SMdA. I've always used SMA when abbreviating.


Unconventional I said .... SMD is an easy mis-think or mis-type for someone that hasn't used the abbreviation much


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## lagoloo

The family thing is can be dealt with in a number of ways.
For one thing, we now have great communication available, so you can "see", hear, and keep the connection going. 

Our solution, with three far scattered adult children, is to persuade them to visit us. Over the past ten years, two out of three have, and found it both enjoyable and a real eye-opener to replace the ideas most people acquire about Mexico from U.S. influences.
We took one couple on a guided tour of Guadalajara and they couldn't believe their eyes. Nothing like what they expected. They'll be back for the third time this winter to enjoy our beaches as well as the highlands.


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## Rwrobb

*Reasonble Living and Health Insurance*



Isla Verde said:


> I live well in Mexico City on around $12,000 MN a month. I have a very small apartment in a nice (not luxurious) safe centrally-located colonia. I don't have a car and am happy to use public transportation and my feet to get around the city. I don't cook all that much and eat out mostly at little restaurants in my neighborhood. My budget also includes bi-annual premiums for a private health insurance plan.


You seem to be able to get by on a reasonable amount of money. Small apt. is good, not having a car is much less hassle, not worth driving while there as far as I,m concerned. Walking is fine with me too, buses are cheap. Sometimes I guess its just as cheap to eat out as cook at home. My question is where is the best place to get your private health insurance and roughly how much do you think it would be for a six month stay ?. Is it a company in Mexico or the U.S. I,m from Canada that's why I,m asking.


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## Scrants

Detailman said:


> This is a question that is on everyone's minds when they move to Mexico. A common answer is that it depends on your lifestyle and how you want to live.
> Whereas that is very true, I think that the question being asked here, in my honest opinion, is what different people are experiencing themselves and what it costs them for "their" lifestyle.
> 
> Some has already answered giving their personal situation which helps potential expats to gauge things based on that answer. They can determine which group they fit in depending on how they want to live.
> 
> From the answers so far we have learned that you can live in Mexico City in a comfortable but careful lifestyle without a car for $12,000 (pesos) per month. You can live in Guadalajara, being careful, for around $10,000 pesos. DonGringo can live an expanded lifestyle (and he explains where the pesos go) for around $25,000 pesos plus housing. Another gave a basis breakdown of: 1) Just survive - $11,000; 2) Comfortable - $22,000; and 3) luxurious - $40,000.
> 
> Someone could argue as to what luxurious means and for them it might mean $75,000 but that is not the point. The more people comment and include what it means to them, the more forum members can get a better idea of what would be reasonable for them, plus or minus.
> 
> So this thread serves a very important function if people will reply with their comments. (And they do not need to give a complete financial breakdown.) I know it is helpful to me and I would be happy to hear more comments about what people personally experience.


How would the cost of living in Mexico compare to Corozal in Belize, or Panama?


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## Longford

In contrast to the two countries you're comparing it with, Mexico is huge and with economic conditions and costs of living which can vary widely depending upon where someone lives in Mexico. Maybe someone reading your question has lived in both of the other countries, and Mexico and can provide some personal experience based on their particular lifestyle in each.


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## Isla Verde

Rwrobb said:


> You seem to be able to get by on a reasonable amount of money. Small apt. is good, not having a car is much less hassle, not worth driving while there as far as I,m concerned. Walking is fine with me too, buses are cheap. Sometimes I guess its just as cheap to eat out as cook at home. My question is where is the best place to get your private health insurance and roughly how much do you think it would be for a six month stay ?. Is it a company in Mexico or the U.S. I,m from Canada that's why I,m asking.


The Mexican company I had a plan with cancelled my policy over a year ago because of my age and the results of tests they ordered that came out on the wrong side of certain parameters they had set. I can't imagine they would have given me a policy for only six months at a time, but who knows? When my policy was cancelled (the cheapest offered), I was paying around $30,000 MN a year when I was 67. Even if they had renewed my policy, the premium would have gone up every year as my age went up, so I probably would have dropped the policy myself in a couple of years anyway.


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## Schort

We are in the 20-22k MXN range. This includes a car & States health insurance for 2. Living in a quiet locals colonia & quiet. 

If we lived "nice", I'd guess on another $20k for maid, extra rent, etc.


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## GARYJ65

dongringo said:


> I am not a survivalist, just trying to live a normal life in Mexico not because I came here because it is cheap but because I am stuck with a wonderful Mexican woman.
> 
> So don´t tell me about your pennyante differences.
> Electricity: 1000 pesos every two months, subsidized by Mexico (Until the kids moved 2500)
> Phone: 1500 pesos (should be 1000 pesos for full internet and freeby calls most anywhere. (I pay more because I am a hog)
> Water: 50 p plus sewage + 14 pesos per each jug of drinking water = 210 pesos
> Garbage: 35 pesos
> Gas: about 250 pesos per month
> Cable: 285 pesos
> 
> So my monthly nut before housing is app. 2300 pesos
> 
> Add housing - last time renting I paid 2500
> 
> Except for housing I can live anywhere for the same cost
> 
> My daily food costs are cheaper here, not because food is particularly cheaper, but because there are less goodies available. Let's say 5000 pesos for two. (Yes, I like to eat well)
> 
> My entertainment budget is about 1500 pesos per month. Obviously I don´t party much.
> 
> My damn cigarettes are now costing me more than my maid's wages.
> But if I were a regular drinker and could tolerate aguardiente, I would save a little money.
> 
> My car expenses are roughly 2500 pesos per month (including liability only insurance. And that is about 300 miles per week in a huge SUV.
> 
> My burn down the house or pay some jerk for a slip and fall claim is NIL.
> (literally no insurance available in my part of town)
> 
> So let's say I need 14500 pesos - that's a little more than what social security pays usual retirees, and what Mexico thinks you should receive monthly for the old FM3 visa.
> 
> Now for the goodies:
> 
> I enjoy a maid and a gardener that I could not afford in the US, but now I enjoy making impoverished people feel rich: 5000 pesos per month.
> 
> And I like to go places where more food and entertainment is available. 5000 pesos per month.
> 
> Now I am on the level that Mexico thinks I should receive monthly for an FM2 visa.
> Obviously they want no cheapskates.
> 
> My high deductible health insurance now is about 1200 pesos per month.
> 
> Add it all up - I can live very very comfortably for about 25000 pesos, except for rent/housing. Frankly I could do that anywhere if I did not have a mortgage or kids.
> 
> I realize that there are a lot of people trying to make it on a thousand bucks or less, and yes, it can be done and is being done, if you shave off US wants and enjoy cheap rentals in places you never expected to live in.
> 
> But for a normal or let's say average lower middle class ******, except for rent, I really do not see a benefit of moving to Mexico unless you really, really like tortillas and 20 versions of beans.
> 
> So let's bring it to a consesus:
> How much does one need to
> survive in Mexico: ?
> live in Mexico: ?
> live well in Mexico: ?
> I'll skip the live better in Mexico than the US question.
> 
> (PLEASE, skip the commercials about other wonderful aspects of Mexico)


If you have to ask, then, the answer is no


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## joaquinx

I'm in the 12,000 range which includes a car, medication, and doctor. Quiet colonia and two blocks from my doctor, Chedraui, bus stop, etc.


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## Rwrobb

*Per Year to live in Mexico*



joaquinx said:


> I'm in the 12,000 range which includes a car, medication, and doctor. Quiet colonia and two blocks from my doctor, Chedraui, bus stop, etc.


Do you mean $12,000.00 USD to cover your expenses for a year in Mexico? That seems reasonable to be able to survive in a foreign country.


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## joaquinx

Rwrobb said:


> Do you mean $12,000.00 USD to cover your expenses for a year in Mexico? That seems reasonable to be able to survive in a foreign country.


No, 12,000 pesos per month. I am frugal.


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## lhpdiver

For us - off the top of my head...

- About 2000 pesos/week food (Costco/Mega)
- 2500/month for the gardener/handyman who gives us 1 full day of work/week
- CFE - $0 - we just invested in PV system 
- Water - not sure but we have a community well which we all contribute to support based on usage.
- Car - about 600 pesos/two week period.
- Fun/vacations/restaurants - lets say 2000 pesos/month - some months more than others
- Home repair - just replaced the 'flat roof' for 8000 pesos. Next year we need to replace/repair the tiled area ??
- 20000 pesos/year homeowners association.
- Then there is Telmex, Sky, Vonage, Booz, Natural gas, Bottled water

I don't have access to my quicken at the moment but I think our budget would be under $3000 USD/month - probably one third what it was in the US. 

Yesterday I just checked what health Ins would cost us back home - roughly $1600 USD/month with a deductible. Here we have IMSS (and an occasional doctor visit out-of-pocket) - - I think $650 USD/year.


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## Rwrobb

*Per Month*



joaquinx said:


> No, 12,000 pesos per month. I am frugal.


That works out to be $1000.00 CAN per month with the peso being at 12.07 exchange. I guess that $1000.00 - $1500.00 should get me through in Acapulco. I,m not sure that I,ll stay there but maybe try some of all the other wonderful places that all the other people stay at on here. The small town feel might just be a nice change of pace. I have always chosen to stay in the Caleta area when there. I hate the newer Aca with all the big fancy hotels. But if you want piece and quiet you can always go to Pie De La Cuesta. Very nice lagoon but the ocean side is not much good for swimming.


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## Curiousexpat

Is $100,000 USD yearly salary sufficient for a good living in Mexico City for a family of 5?


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## GARYJ65

Curiousexpat said:


> Is $100,000 USD yearly salary sufficient for a good living in Mexico City for a family of 5?


Depending on your style of living


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## ojosazules11

The title of this thread is "Damn, Can I live on this in Mexico?" Reading through the posts it seems 2 key words are "I" and "can". 

It's clear from many posts that there are plenty of expats who can and do live on a very modest budget - and enjoy their life in Mexico immensely. It's interesting to see the variety of household budgets and what different people choose to include as recurring monthly expenses - maid or no maid, eating out regularly or not, etc. So whether any given "I" can live on this in Mexico the answer in most cases should be "Yes, you can."

However a more relevant question is "Do you *want* to?" To many a frugal, simple, less complicated lifestyle is itself a benefit to living in Mexico. For others it may be a "sacrifice" they don't want to make - although they may have to if their income doesn't allow for more, regardless of where they choose to live.


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## diablita

Rwrobb said:


> That works out to be $1000.00 CAN per month with the peso being at 12.07 exchange. I guess that $1000.00 - $1500.00 should get me through in Acapulco. I,m not sure that I,ll stay there but maybe try some of all the other wonderful places that all the other people stay at on here. The small town feel might just be a nice change of pace. I have always chosen to stay in the Caleta area when there. I hate the newer Aca with all the big fancy hotels. But if you want piece and quiet you can always go to Pie De La Cuesta. Very nice lagoon but the ocean side is not much good for swimming.


Don't know how well you know the Acapulco area but I have been living on less than that for the past 15 years in Coloso. Most NOB folks would consider where I live a dump but I'm content here.


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## Longford

diablita said:


> Most NOB folks would consider where I live a dump but I'm content here.


That's what's important, isn't it? Different "strokes" for different "folks", or so the old saying goes. I believe I (as a single person) would be content living in Acapulco with MX$36,000 per month budget :rockon:, or one of MX$12,000 per month .


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## mxfan

diablita said:


> Most NOB folks would consider where I live a dump but I'm content here.


I would guess that fits many other peoples' situation including mine. That's fine with me, I don't want too many people to move here.


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## mxfan

Curiousexpat said:


> Is $100,000 USD yearly salary sufficient for a good living in Mexico City for a family of 5?


I think the answer to your question is in the previous 33 pages of this post. No?


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## pazenel

*Hi there!*



Isla Verde said:


> I live well in Mexico City on around $12,000 MN a month. I have a very small apartment in a nice (not luxurious) safe centrally-located colonia. I don't have a car and am happy to use public transportation and my feet to get around the city. I don't cook all that much and eat out mostly at little restaurants in my neighborhood. My budget also includes bi-annual premiums for a private health insurance plan.


Can you please tell me what kind of helth insurance you have, and how much do you pay a month? THANK YOU VERY MUCH! God bless you.
PAZ


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## Isla Verde

pazenel said:


> Can you please tell me what kind of helth insurance you have, and how much do you pay a month? THANK YOU VERY MUCH! God bless you.
> PAZ


I don't have a policy with that company any more. It was cancelled by them last year when I didn't "pass" some lab tests they ordered because of my age (67 at that time). I felt I was treated badly by them, so I wouldn't recommend anyone to get a policy with them unless you are relatively young and in perfect health. At the time my policy was cancelled I was paying $15,000 every six months.


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## mxfan

Isla Verde said:


> I don't have a policy with that company any more. It was cancelled by them last year when I didn't "pass" some lab tests they ordered because of my age (67 at that time). I felt I was treated badly by them, so I wouldn't recommend anyone to get a policy with them unless you are relatively young and in perfect health. At the time my policy was cancelled I was paying $15,000 every six months.


Canceling a person's policy due to changes in health or age should be illegal. It is certainly against my ethics.


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## Isla Verde

mxfan said:


> Canceling a person's policy due to changes in health or age should be illegal. It is certainly against my ethics.


It should be illegal, but apparently it isn't, at least not in Mexico.


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## JoanneR2

Isla Verde said:


> It should be illegal, but apparently it isn't, at least not in Mexico.


It will be illegal from April next year when the law regarding insurance changes along with the introduction of Solvency 2 regulations.


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## Isla Verde

JoanneR2 said:


> It will be illegal from April next year when the law regarding insurance changes along with the introduction of Solvency 2 regulations.


That's good news but too late to do me any good. In any event, the premiums were getting so expensive that I probably would have dropped the policy by then anyway.


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## pazenel

Thank you Marsha.

I also asked about health insurance in mexico by GNP. The premium was very high.

I wonder if there is another way..

Paz


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## roadapple

Having lived in Mexico and being from the US, Mexico can be a much more cost effective place to live. Of course I don't smoke, drink, party, etc., so that saves me alot. I also drive an efficient car. 

I'd say the cost of living in MX is less than the US but the standard of living is not the same really. Much slower internet, less food choices (and the US chains in MX suck) though there are amazing restaurants in every city in MX. Gas is the same (it's a ripoff), travelling is very expensive because of the extremely high road tolls, clothes are extremely expensive, etc.

It's a 2nd world country, between 1st and 3rd...  but is an amazing place if you can handle the cultural differences and lower standard of living generally.


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## TundraGreen

roadapple said:


> Having lived in Mexico and being from the US, Mexico can be a much more cost effective place to live. Of course I don't smoke, drink, party, etc., so that saves me alot. I also drive an efficient car.
> 
> I'd say the cost of living in MX is less than the US but the standard of living is not the same really. Much slower internet, less food choices (and the US chains in MX suck) though there are amazing restaurants in every city in MX. Gas is the same (it's a ripoff), travelling is very expensive because of the extremely high road tolls, clothes are extremely expensive, etc.
> 
> It's a 2nd world country, between 1st and 3rd...  but is an amazing place if you can handle the cultural differences and lower standard of living generally.


Mostly because I enjoy being contrary, I would disagree on several of your points. I also don't smoke or party nor do I drink much, a beer or a glass of wine once in awhile. I don't own a car either, because I don't need one here. I can walk or take a local bus everywhere I need to go on a day to day basis. And the intercity buses are cheap (especially for old coots like me) for longer trips. The kinds of clothes I wear, t-shirts and imitation levis, I can get cheaply at tianguis. I don't know about the standard of living, but my quality of life here is better than I had in the US. Things are more convenient, the people are friendlier, the climate is better. 

It is indeed somewhere between a 1st and 3rd world country. I could do without the trash on the streets and the polluted rivers and streams, but otherwise, life is easier, more comfortable and generally better than any of the places I lived in the US.


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## GARYJ65

roadapple said:


> Having lived in Mexico and being from the US, Mexico can be a much more cost effective place to live. Of course I don't smoke, drink, party, etc., so that saves me alot. I also drive an efficient car. I'd say the cost of living in MX is less than the US but the standard of living is not the same really. Much slower internet, less food choices (and the US chains in MX suck) though there are amazing restaurants in every city in MX. Gas is the same (it's a ripoff), travelling is very expensive because of the extremely high road tolls, clothes are extremely expensive, etc. It's a 2nd world country, between 1st and 3rd...  but is an amazing place if you can handle the cultural differences and lower standard of living generally.


I do not agree on some things here
Cost of living in Mexico can be quite expensive, as in any place in the globe
It all depends on what you are used to live like
Clothes are expensive, yes, but you may find very good quality clothing, if you have the money to pay for them
Standard of living...again, it may be very high...or very low, same as in the US 
US chains suck anyway
Mexico is not a 2nd world nothing, that 3rd world was an invention of a very stupid guy. If something, Mexico would be a developing Country, and if this is that we will become "developed" as some "developed" Countries, I would rather not get there.
Cultural differences, of course there are many, since our roots are quite different, and once more, lower standard of living, yes, as long as we speak in general, but the US does not really have a HIGH standard either, that may be my point of view but I don't like how most people live there


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## ValRomx

Curiousexpat said:


> Is $100,000 USD yearly salary sufficient for a good living in Mexico City for a family of 5?


Use numbeo dot com to compare wherever you're living to wherever you want to live.


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## GARYJ65

First we should fine "good living" 
People can be happy with less than that, and some others would be miserable


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## TundraGreen

ValRomx said:


> Use numbeo dot com to compare wherever you're living to wherever you want to live.


You might note that the person who posed the "Can you live on $100,000" question, posted months ago and has not posted since.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

TundraGreen said:


> Back to the second meter issue...
> 
> Earlier, I asked if it was legal. I think a more relevant question is, is it right? The purpose of the graduated rates is to discourage excess usage of electricity and to help people without much money get at least a minimum supply. We all know the world is facing an energy shortage. Discouraging excess usage seems like a good idea to me. Consequently, circumventing the rules seems like a bad idea to me. If you want to use lots of electricity you should be willing and able to pay for it. If you have circumstances that really require a lot of electricity, and if you have very limited resources, and if it is legal, then go for a second meter. Otherwise, think globally, act locally.
> 
> My opinion, and worth just what you paid for it.


Wow, what a thread. I read the first 7 or 8 pages, then the latest comments. Many interesting comments.

I don't know if TundraGreen would still hold to his comments above from 2012, but I would say, wow, how the world changes. I had a position, in trucking industry journalism, to know that America was undergoing an energy revolution. In the depths of the great recession, everyone in trucking knew that a tremendous boom was going on in North Dakota, that soon spread to other states. Unemployment was running at 10-15% in much of the country, but North Dakota couldn't hire enough people at great paying jobs, with unemployment down around 2%. Regular news people missed out totally on the boom for years. I don't think many wanted to go to North Dakota to investigate.

Re: "We all know the world is facing an energy shortage." It turns out it isn't. And boy, has that upset a lot of people whose world view was formed around the notion that we'll soon be all out of carbon energy.

I remember reading that Americans were convinced back in 1925 or so, when the first oil wells in Pennsylvania started to run dry, that the world would soon run out of oil and the rising tide of that fancy new invention, the private car, would be useless.

Back in the 1960s, in the 70s of the horrid oil embargoes, in the 80s and certainly in the 90s, experts predicted the imminent end of cheap oil as they were all convinced, each time, that peak oil output had been reached and the world faced a steady decline in oil production.

All totally wrong.

U.S. science and enterprise took care of that, already making America the world's top natural gas producer and sometime this year, the world's top oil producer. American business has done all this on only a bit of private land. Vast expanses of federal land are still off limits. The know-nothings and luddites are out in force, trying to scare monger the boom, but most don't realize that American producers have been using fracking since the 1940s, but only going straight down. The big innovation was going sideways to get at reserves, along with a few new technologies.

Do you remember the family that poured gasoline in a few springs on its land, invited in some gullible journalists and threw matches in them? Luddites have temporarily prevailed in New York, France and Germany, but not the UK and most of the rest of Europe. They'll be swamped by the rising pools of cheap oil and natural gas, eventually.

The US already has enough cheap oil and natural gas to last through this century. Once federal land is opened up, the supply will be for centuries, and the rest of the world has just scraped the surface of this technology, so all of those wind farms and solar panels and electric cars will just never come near the low costs of running anything on carbon energy till maybe 2450, if that, barring a tech breakthrough, which would be great.

It's not my fault if the rest of the world isn't as efficient as the U.S., so you sure can't guilt me about using as much energy as I can pay for.

As for all the folks upset at the guy who put in a second meter and "Discouraging excess usage seems like a good idea to me." Folks, Mexico also doesn't face an energy shortage. It faces an abundance of corruption situation. I've been covering the Mexican energy field since the early 80s. Unions, company officials and government officials have been in league for decades to siphon off about 150% of what Pemex earns annually. The result: cheap oil brings cheap gas in the US, but no change in Mexico. Do you really think you're paying high gas prices here as part of some savvy plan to protect Mexico's "oil patrimony?" Ha-ha-ha.

The reason the current president wanted to change the constitution to bring in foreign oil companies is not their technology per se. Mexican oil engineers are top rate. It's because Pemex is so utterly corrupt, still, that it just couldn't handle the capital raising and investment to carry out a long range search and development strategy. Pemex has no capital as anything it earns is "spent" immediately. If Pemex raised, say $10 billion from private and public investment, how much of that do you actually think would make it to the investment program?

So, Mexicans well know this situation, that corruption is rampant in their energy companies and ministries, and it's why they feel no guilt in putting in two or three or however many meters. You are not "saving" electricity for the poor by paying triple or whatever over the low price for low use, people. You're just lining someone's pockets.

"I think a more relevant question is, is it right?" Some 100 million Mexicans would laugh uproariously at that interpretation.


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## GARYJ65

GARYJ65 said:


> First we should fine "good living" People can be happy with less than that, and some others would be miserable


Define


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## Cristobal

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> The reason the current president wanted to change the constitution to bring in foreign oil companies is not their technology per se. Mexican oil engineers are top rate. It's because Pemex is so utterly corrupt, still, that it just couldn't handle the capital raising and investment to carry out a long range search and development strategy. Pemex has no capital as anything it earns is "spent" immediately. If Pemex raised, say $10 billion from private and public investment, how much of that do you actually think would make it to the investment program?


 

Really now? If EPN was concerned about corruption (laugh, laugh) within Pemex, then explain why he appointed Carlos Romero Deschamps to a Senate seat? For those who aren't aware of who this person is, he was the head of the Pemex union and, promised to deliver union support for the reforms, for which he was awarded a Senate post through proportional representation. This man was considered the second most corrupt Mexican by Forbes Magazine. Right below her highness herself Elba Esther Gordillo, the infamous leader of the SNTE, now awaiting trial for corruption.

Privatization will benefit a select few that are already positioned to benefit greatly much in the way Carlos Slim did with the privatization of Telmex.


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## cmeteach

I have been reading the previous post about the standard of living. My husband and I are considering retiring in Mexico. I realize if I move to Mexico and try to have the same standard of living I have here it will probably not be cheaper. My only qualms about moving is: 1) I have some health issues and can I get decent medical care in an emergency? 2) Will I be able to stand being away from my 2 college age kids for long periods? 3) Is it safe to travel around Mexico? (More my husbands concern). I am researching all these. One of the reasons I like the idea of moving is the simplicity. It seems here in the US I worry about things that are really not important. We are thinking about the Majahual area. I like the fact there is no Walmart (for now) or shopping malls. Many of the conveniences we have here lead to a unhealthy lifestyle. I like the fact I will be forced to eat fresher food and not be able to pick up a lot of junk food. I would also be forced to walk or ride a bike. I am surrounded by "things" now. I want to simplify.


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## GARYJ65

When expats say that they want to simplify, walk to places, eat healthier, etc.
Why they can't do that...let's say, anywhere?


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## Isla Verde

cmeteach said:


> . . . I like the fact I will be forced to eat fresher food and not be able to pick up a lot of junk food. . . .[/QUOTE
> 
> Mexico is full of junk food, no matter where you live. It's one of the reasons why obesity is such a big problem here.


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## GARYJ65

That is part of what I am trying to say
If you want to walk, you just walk
If you look for a slower pace, you just live like that
If you don't want to eat junk food, then just don't 
I would not have to stay away from a City or Country in order to do that 
This is the 21 century!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> That is part of what I am trying to say
> If you want to walk, you just walk
> If you look for a slower pace, you just live like that
> If you don't want to eat junk food, then just don't
> I would not have to stay away from a City or Country in order to do that
> This is the 21 century!


All of this is true, Gary, but some places are more conducive to healthy living than others. For example, where I live in Mexico City, it's easy to walk everywhere, rather than driving or taking public transportation. If you live in a typical suburb in the States, there's no way to survive without a car.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> All of this is true, Gary, but some places are more conducive to healthy living than others. For example, where I live in Mexico City, it's easy to walk everywhere, rather than driving or taking public transportation. If you live in a typical suburb in the States, there's no way to survive without a car.


Then don't live in those suburbs!
In the US there are more choices of healthy food than you can ever need, food for small people, large people, dwarves, for everyone

I think you can live as you want, everywhere, if that was not the case, then we should run to a lost island and live in a cave


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> Then don't live in those suburbs!
> In the US there are more choices of healthy food than you can ever need, food for small people, large people, dwarves, for everyone
> 
> I think you can live as you want, everywhere, if that was not the case, then we should run to a lost island and live in a cave


But it seems in the States if you want to eat healthy you either have to grow it yourself or pay high prices. Mexico seems like a vegetarian's paradise.


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## cmeteach

GARYJ65 said:


> Then don't live in those suburbs!
> In the US there are more choices of healthy food than you can ever need, food for small people, large people, dwarves, for everyone
> 
> I think you can live as you want, everywhere, if that was not the case, then we should run to a lost island and live in a cave


"Then don't live in those suburbs!"

Gary, That is kinda of what I am trying to do. I am trying to use my home as income as we live in an area that is expensive compared to the rest of the state. Then, I can move to even warmer weather and experience a culture different from my own while possibly saving some money each month. Obviously I am not just trying to hide from junk food. I get the impression you feel my reasons for relocating are not valid. So I am curious..what constitutes someone relocating to a country that you seem to love???


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## citlali

Old habits die hard and if one does not lead a healthy life in the US chances are slim that one will lead a healthy one in Mexico. Changing life and country can be fun and it can be stressfull..it is not all rosy and it all depends how you can adapt to changes. As far as getting all wonderful fresh fruit and vegetables it depends on where you live how you shop and what you like to eat. 
I find the choices here are much less than I used to have in California but I guess it all depends where you come from as well. I travelled through places in the US where the choices were just dismal and Mexico is paradise in comparaison..


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## citlali

cmeteach if you have medical issues , did you check the medical facilities in Majahual??You may want to seriously look into that one before moving there. Also check the type of doctors you have access to there. 
We have wonderful medical facilities in Guadalajara but having a medical emergency in a small town in the middle of nowhere can be pretty scary.


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## cmeteach

*Medical emergency*



citlali said:


> cmeteach if you have medical issues , did you check the medical facilities in Majahual??You may want to seriously look into that one before moving there. Also check the type of doctors you have access to there.
> We have wonderful medical facilities in Guadalajara but having a medical emergency in a small town in the middle of nowhere can be pretty scary.


Yes, I have thought about that. This was a major concern for my husband too. He is worried about me, So I am researching our options. I think I am probably going to have to visit home every 3-4 months, so living near an airport would be better. I am disabled and this way I could keep my team of doctors. I only need to visit them every 3-4 months for blood work. I loved that area but Cancun is at least 3 hours away. But I love the beach. Any suggestions??
Also Sunnyvmx 
I tried your email but it keeps kicking back. Let me get a couple more post in and I will post my email for you. This computer too old for skype.
Teri


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> Old habits die hard and if one does not lead a healthy life in the US chances are slim that one will lead a healthy one in Mexico. Changing life and country can be fun and it can be stressfull..it is not all rosy and it all depends how you can adapt to changes. As far as getting all wonderful fresh fruit and vegetables it depends on where you live how you shop and what you like to eat.
> I find the choices here are much less than I used to have in California but I guess it all depends where you come from as well. I travelled through places in the US where the choices were just dismal and Mexico is paradise in comparaison..


But still, have seen plenty of examples over the years of huge selections of fresh produce, especially in southern Mexico, at very affordable prices. Our produce in supermarkets in the States is often not as fresh and is much more expensive. A practicing vegitarian could do well in Mexico. I'm surprised that San Cristobal de las Casas doesn't have choices comparable to California.


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## Mextrav46

Isla Verde said:


> All of this is true, Gary, but some places are more conducive to healthy living than others. For example, where I live in Mexico City, it's easy to walk everywhere, rather than driving or taking public transportation. If you live in a typical suburb in the States, there's no way to survive without a car.


One could hardly call walking in one of the world's worst air polluted cities healthy living.:doh:


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## citlali

We got much more choices in California than in San Cristobal. WHat we get in San Cristobal is many greens and berries that comes from the highlands and good tropical fruit whic I do not care for. Lousy free range chicken as it is not a chicken any longer and is ough as nails. If you like to make coq au vin and stews it has wonderful flavors but it is really tough. The beef is not great , we hav pork wich is pretty dry, ots of chorizo, sausages and pork products which I do not care for. the seafood is pretty scary and you have to really pay attention to what you are buying..
We have a fabulous selections of greens and wild things . We have many veggies including mushrooms I had neve seen and do not know he names in English or Spanish. I recognize tem whn I hear the name in Tsotsil and cook them according to the local recipesi but when it comes to make the food I like to make I am very often out of luck and had to learn how to cook different things.
I am sure vegeterians do very well as we have a zillion different types of beans, some nice local cheeses, lots of chilis and so on.
I am not sure what you are surprise San Cristobal does not have the choice that California has..California has some fabulous farmer´s market and it is a very multicultural area so you can get lots of different types of fruit and vegggies, including bitter meon, durian etc..try that in Chiapas.
The Chinese are taking over the Simojovel area so hat may change if a lot of them stick around but right now gve me the variety of California anyday.
I am not talking about prices because I do not look at them when it comes to food, I am very French that way, I go to the market every day and buy what looks good and pay the going price then come up with a meal with what I bought, I do not shop from a shopping list when I am down there, just buy what looks good that day.


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## citlali

Cmeteach, I would think that between Cancun and Merida you could get very good healthcare, it all depends what your condition is as far as having an emergency.
You know what care you may need so before settling in one place make sure that what you need is easily reachable or reachable in time. 
If what you need is blood work and adjustment of medecine then you can live further out but should know where the doctors and labs you need are.
I wanted to live in San Cristobal, Chis full time but aftermy husband had an emergency surgery while I was down there with my husband I will try not to have an emergency while down there and will not live there full time if I need some good doctors and or hospitals.


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## coondawg

vantexan said:


> But still, have seen plenty of examples over the years of huge selections of fresh produce, especially in southern Mexico, at very affordable prices. Our produce in supermarkets in the States is often not as fresh and is much more expensive. A practicing vegitarian could do well in Mexico. I'm surprised that San Cristobal de las Casas doesn't have choices comparable to California.


My Mexican wife and I both agree that we have the best selection and variety of food (and prices) NOB, not in Mexico. We like fresh salad, but it is really a challenge here to find a quality lettuce on a regular basis (lots of lettuce, poor quality). Fruit (at least in our experiences) are much better quality and more inexpensive NOB than here. Sure, at times, there is an item that is cheaper here (papaya) than NOB, but more often than not, NOB quality, selection, and prices win out. We bring frozen meats back with us when we return here, as the quality and certainly the price are MUCH better NOB, in our experience.  
As Gary and Citlali point out, we believe that if you are NOB, you have the best quality and selection, month in and month out, of foods, and if you can't eat healthy there, you will not do it anywhere else. 
We return NOB to Central Texas, so your mileage may differ.


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## Hound Dog

_


vantexan said:



But still, have seen plenty of examples over the years of huge selections of fresh produce, especially in southern Mexico, at very affordable prices. Our produce in supermarkets in the States is often not as fresh and is much more expensive. A practicing vegitarian could do well in Mexico. I'm surprised that San Cristobal de las Casas doesn't have choices comparable to California.

Click to expand...

_Your response was to a post by Citlali. She and I have lived part of each year in San Cristóbal de Las Casas and part of each year at Lake Chapala having retired to Mexico in 2001, first to Chapala and then, in 2006, to San Cristóbal. The choice of fresh, locally grown vegetables available in San Cristóbal and delivered daily by indigenous farmers from their own milpas in the mountainous región surrounding the city is far superior to the choice of locally grown vegetables and fruits available anywhere in communities along the shores of Lake Chapala. Actually, fresh, locally grown vegetables at municipal markets and tianguis in communities in the lake región are a rarity indeed and most of the fruits and vegetables available in the lakeside communities are delivered to markets in those communities from the huge wholesale market in Guadalajara. This produce is almost always produced by large commercial farms throughout Mexico with a scattering of foreign suppliers. This produce sold at local municipal markets and tiaguis is the same produce one will find in large supermarkets throughout the Guadalajara metro área and surrounding región. There are exceptions and local produce can be found but in very limited varieties and often at sellers´ stands adjoining the central market core. Lately, in the Ajiic área there has been a movement toward establishing local weekly markets featuring what is often loosely defined as "organic" produce and that is an encouraging development but, as yet, in its infancy. I, for one, hope these locally oriented markets succeed and grow and I think they will over time because of their superior if often more expensive offerings. 

Despite that fact that more locally produced fruits and vegetables are available in communities such as San Cristóbal than in urban áreas surrounding Lake Chapala, the fruits and vegetable markets in Coastal Northern California are far superior to anything we have experienced anywhere in Mexico - especially produce that is certifiably organic having met very exacting and strictly enforced standards. About the only thing I truly miss here in Mexico is the astonishing variety of fresh, succulent fruits and vegetables which was available to us in the San Francisco Bay Area and environs. That´s OK - I am more than compensated for that loss in both Jalisco and Chiapas by the countless other advantages we have enjoyed for more than a decade here. We ain´t moving back there even if a truly great vine-ripened heirloom tomato in season is a distant but cherished memory. 

All this talk about fresh locally grown produce reminds me of when we first arrive at Lake Chapala in 2001, shopping at local markets and supermarkets at the lake and in Metro Guadalajara. In those days both local markets and supermarkets in this área and throughout áreas of Mexico we frequented, shamelessly sold an abundance of rotting and substandard fruits and vegetables at full prices and you took what you could get which was a sad selection indeed. Competition from large box chains such as WalMart, Costco and other foreign parented interlopers with more progressive merchandising techniques - such as discarding rotting vegetables or other produce beyond its prime - forced local supermarket chains to clean up their acts and there is no comparison between the freshness and variety of vegetables and fruits they offer in their inventories today and that they offered in 2001. Competition is King. 

In our travels around Southern Mexico, we aften visit favorite cities such as Oaxaca and Merida and we are fond of the cuisine we enjoy in those regions. While much local produce can be found in Oaxaca City, there was the dirty little secret that much of the "local" produce available there actually was shipped down by truck from large commercial farming operations in Puebla State with its vast agricultural áreas. Then came the teacher´s strike of a few years ago while we were on an extended trip to Oaxaca and the teachers closed the main highways from Puebla to Oaxaca so that the trucks delivering that produce could not get through from Puebla. That "locally grown" Oaxaca produce suddenly became hard to find. Live and learn.


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## GARYJ65

San Cristobal or any other city will never have produce as in California, because of economics


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## Hound Dog

_


cmeteach said:



Yes, I have thought about that. This was a major concern for my husband too. He is worried about me, So I am researching our options. I think I am probably going to have to visit home every 3-4 months, so living near an airport would be better. I am disabled and this way I could keep my team of doctors. I only need to visit them every 3-4 months for blood work. *I loved that area but Cancun is at least 3 hours away. But I love the beach. Any suggestions?
Teri*

Click to expand...

_*

There are many nice beach áreas where one can live in splendid isolation but be within a reasonable distance of high quality medical care when needed. For instance, that part of the Gulf Coast from about Puerto Progreso to Dzilam de Bravo I wrote about earlier along the Northern Gulf within easy reach of the big city of Merida. The beaches along that stretch of the Gulf are pure White fine sand and the Gulf waters a beautiful aquamarine color. A fine beach place within a relatively easy drive of the great city of Merida with not only good medical care but excellent cultural and entertainment opportunities.

A few years ago as we looked about for beach places to live, we visited Majuahal and Xcalac in Southern Quintana Roo with the notion that one of these isolated beach towns would be a fun place in which to live. We drove down there from the Cancun área and back to Chiapas via Lake Bacalar (also considered and rejected) , Escárcega and Palenque. We were blown away by the isolation of these town and their great distance from good shopping and other urban amenities but especially by the fact that any even marginally decent medical care was two to three hours distant over back country roads - way too great a distance through endless scrub lands in case of emergency or, for that matter, even routine medical care on an ongoing basis. Not only that, but homes for sale in those backwaters were damned expensive for what one got. We were out of there in short order but, if one has lots of money, thrives on isolation and plans to remain healthy at all times into the future - that's an área worth looking into. 

I asked a local denizen in Xcalac just what there was to do all day there in the middle-of-nowhere and he reponded, "Well, on a typical day here, we get up and go swimming or diving at the reef and then, about noon, we eat lunch, get loaded and pass out. Then the next day, we do all that all over again. Of course, periodically we drive for a few hours to shop for groceries or maybe see a movie but that´s about it." Now, if I were an artist or writer or a commercial fishermen or (non-drinking) bartender fully involved in my work day to day, I could see living out there but as a retiree with nothing to do but drink and fish or drive three hours to the nearest hospital, I decided to pass. 

To each his own.*


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## cmeteach

Hound Dog, Thanks for your reply. Now you sound like my husband who says he could live with that way for a few months, but he is sure I would get bored. By the way, I am beginning a children's book and isolation sounds great right now. The cruise ships do come in T-Friday. Maybe he could be a bartender on the beach.


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## vantexan

coondawg said:


> My Mexican wife and I both agree that we have the best selection and variety of food (and prices) NOB, not in Mexico. We like fresh salad, but it is really a challenge here to find a quality lettuce on a regular basis (lots of lettuce, poor quality). Fruit (at least in our experiences) are much better quality and more inexpensive NOB than here. Sure, at times, there is an item that is cheaper here (papaya) than NOB, but more often than not, NOB quality, selection, and prices win out. We bring frozen meats back with us when we return here, as the quality and certainly the price are MUCH better NOB, in our experience.
> As Gary and Citlali point out, we believe that if you are NOB, you have the best quality and selection, month in and month out, of foods, and if you can't eat healthy there, you will not do it anywhere else.
> We return NOB to Central Texas, so your mileage may differ.


But you're in semi-arid central Mexico. Southern Mexico, especially in largely indigenous areas tends to have large selections at very low prices. No doubt California has a great selection too but at much higher prices. Oh well, it's academic, I'm heading to Nicaragua. At least until Social Security kicks in. I know the U.S. has great quality in meats, but for produce at low cost my money is on Mexico.


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## citlali

Gary you are absolutely right. There were wonderful tomatoes available here in Jalisco when the US quit buying for a little while, the best goes abroad ecause of economics, Same with coffee the best goes to Germany and so on.

Vantexan I am not sure why you think than Southern Mexico has the best, most of the food in the abastos in Oaxaca comes from the Puebla area, I am not iimpressed with the food in the abastos in Merida either. We have some intersting veggies and fruit in San Cristobal that grow in the highlands but the selection is nothing like what you get in the States in the large cities.

I am not sure why you think the selection/ quality in Nicaragua will be good either as Gary said it is a question of economics.

By the way semi arid climate with good irragation produces as a rule better products than humid climates .


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## GARYJ65

Guanajuato, Michoacan, Jalisco, Veracruz, Tabasco are very important vegetable and fruit producers, among others, a lot of the production goes abroad, fresh or frozen.

Mexico has no support to make land productive: no fertilizers, machinery, know how, etc

California is a VERY wealthy and productive state, if it was an Independent Country, it could survive and grow, it is that much important


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> Gary you are absolutely right. There were wonderful tomatoes available here in Jalisco when the US quit buying for a little while, the best goes abroad ecause of economics, Same with coffee the best goes to Germany and so on.
> 
> Vantexan I am not sure why you think than Southern Mexico has the best, most of the food in the abastos in Oaxaca comes from the Puebla area, I am not iimpressed with the food in the abastos in Merida either. We have some intersting veggies and fruit in San Cristobal that grow in the highlands but the selection is nothing like what you get in the States in the large cities.
> 
> I am not sure why you think the selection/ quality in Nicaragua will be good either as Gary said it is a question of economics.
> 
> By the way semi arid climate with good irragation produces as a rule better products than humid climates .


I'm heading to Esteli, Nicaragua in the northern highlands. It's claim to fame is that a number of Cuban cigar makers fled there after the revolution and found the area perfect for growing high quality tobacco. They also have many family farms in the area growing produce and have a large mercado selling it. They really don't have a way to export from there like Mexico does. I'm not saying Nicaragua is some incredible paradise, it's the 2nd poorest country in the hemisphere. But it is very affordable and will allow me to save money every month. At 62 I'm looking to go to Guanajuato. By the way Nicaragua is by far the safest country in Central America although they do have property crime issues.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> I'm heading to Esteli, Nicaragua in the northern highlands. It's claim to fame is that a number of Cuban cigar makers fled there after the revolution and found the area perfect for growing high quality tobacco. They also have many family farms in the area growing produce and have a large mercado selling it. They really don't have a way to export from there like Mexico does. I'm not saying Nicaragua is some incredible paradise, it's the 2nd poorest country in the hemisphere. But it is very affordable and will allow me to save money every month. At 62 I'm looking to go to Guanajuato. By the way Nicaragua is by far the safest country in Central America although they do have property crime issues.


Let us know how things go once you are living in Nicaragua. Will you be working or do you have some sort of pension? Is it easy to get a visa to live there legally? Most important of all, let us know what the local cuisine is like!


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## Anonimo

Old friends of ours, whom we knew in Arkansas, retired to Nicaragua a few years ago. You can get an idea of their life there by going to Rewired and Retired In Nicaragua.


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## GARYJ65

vantexan said:


> I'm heading to Esteli, Nicaragua in the northern highlands. It's claim to fame is that a number of Cuban cigar makers fled there after the revolution and found the area perfect for growing high quality tobacco. They also have many family farms in the area growing produce and have a large mercado selling it. They really don't have a way to export from there like Mexico does. I'm not saying Nicaragua is some incredible paradise, it's the 2nd poorest country in the hemisphere. But it is very affordable and will allow me to save money every month. At 62 I'm looking to go to Guanajuato. By the way Nicaragua is by far the safest country in Central America although they do have property crime issues.


Have you ever been there?


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> Have you ever been there?


No Gary, I haven't. Discuss it quite a bit with people who live there.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> No Gary, I haven't. Discuss it quite a bit with people who live there.


It might be wise to go to Nicaragua for a longish vacation and see if you like what you find before making a permanent move.


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## diablita

vantexan said:


> I'm heading to Esteli, Nicaragua in the northern highlands. It's claim to fame is that a number of Cuban cigar makers fled there after the revolution and found the area perfect for growing high quality tobacco. They also have many family farms in the area growing produce and have a large mercado selling it. They really don't have a way to export from there like Mexico does. I'm not saying Nicaragua is some incredible paradise, it's the 2nd poorest country in the hemisphere. But it is very affordable and will allow me to save money every month. At 62 I'm looking to go to Guanajuato. By the way Nicaragua is by far the safest country in Central America although they do have property crime issues.


Will you have access to Fox News there?


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Let us know how things go once you are living in Nicaragua. Will you be working or do you have some sort of pension? Is it easy to get a visa to live there legally? Most important of all, let us know what the local cuisine is like!


I'll get a small pension from FedEx in early 2017. They do have a pensionado program which only requires $700 a month if I remember right. I've heard it's a bureaucratic nightmare though and most expats cross over to Costa Rica every 90 days. The cuisine is heavy on rice and beans and a lot of fried food. In the bigger cities there's a decent amount of variety in restaurants. What's interesting is the biggest cities have very active Facebook groups, some of which arrange monthly get togethers at local restaurants. The most popular expat city is Granada, which is supposed to be the oldest Spanish city in the Americas.


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## vantexan

diablita said:


> Will you have access to Fox News there?


You betcha!😃


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> It might be wise to go to Nicaragua for a longish vacation and see if you like what you find before making a permanent move.


My wife isn't coming down, so I'll rent a room with English speaking landlord. I should be able to get by comfortably for less than $500 a month. I've seen enough pictures and videos to make up my mind. It's nicer than Eagle Pass, TX was in 2002, and the weather is much better, so I'm good!


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> My wife isn't coming down, so I'll rent a room with English speaking landlord. I should be able to get by comfortably for less than $500 a month. I've seen enough pictures and videos to make up my mind. It's nicer than Eagle Pass, TX was in 2002, and the weather is much better, so I'm good!


Do you really think you can know what's it like to live in a place from pictures and videos alone? It does sound like you've made up your mind to like living there, so probably nothing anyone here can say is likely to make you reconsider your decision. But I strongly advise you to have a Plan B ready just in case Nicaragua doesn't turn out to be the land of your dreams after all.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Do you really think you can know what's it like to live in a place from pictures and videos alone? It does sound like you've made up your mind to like living there, so probably nothing anyone here can say is likely to make you reconsider your decision. But I strongly advise you to have a Plan B ready just in case Nicaragua doesn't turn out to be the land of your dreams after all.


I'm not your typical American. When my parents got divorced we lived in 2 rooms of an unfinished house for 3 years. At 12 I was picking weeds for $1hr in a large plant nursery in the Florida sun for 35 hrs a week. I've been working ever since, including living 12 years in a 26' travel trailer as I transferred around. And 5 years on the Mexican border, often working in brutal conditions. We're living paycheck to paycheck now in a town my wife hates. Believe me, Esteli will be fine.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> I'm not your typical American. When my parents got divorced we lived in 2 rooms of an unfinished house for 3 years. At 12 I was picking weeds for $1hr in a large plant nursery in the Florida sun for 35 hrs a week. I've been working ever since, including living 12 years in a 26' travel trailer as I transferred around. And 5 years on the Mexican border, often working in brutal conditions. We're living paycheck to paycheck now in a town my wife hates. Believe me, Esteli will be fine.


Then all I can do is wish you good luck and buen viaje!


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## TundraGreen

The idea that you carefully choose where you live seems to be a concept more common amongst us expats than in life in general. Many people I know, including me various times in my life, just pack up and go to live in a place they have never even seen. 

I have made six major relocations in my life, always for jobs. Only one time did it involve moving to a state or country I had visited before hand. In the other five cases I moved to a location sight unseen, three times to a new state and twice to a new country. You just move there and deal with the consequences. I can make a niche for myself most anywhere.


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## citlali

Yes,me too all the places I have moved except for Chiapas to I have moved sight unseen and made the best of it or moved again. I have never moved for a job and usually found a job after I moved however when older it does help to have enough money saved to get out of a place or have a partner that will help if you do not want to stay there.
It also help to know the language if you move to a foreign country and want to live cheaply otherwise you end up paying the tourist price and are not able to really shop for the best price.

By the sound of it Vantexan will be better off in Nicaragua or just about anywhere so when are you going to your next adventure?


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## GARYJ65

vantexan said:


> I'm not your typical American. When my parents got divorced we lived in 2 rooms of an unfinished house for 3 years. At 12 I was picking weeds for $1hr in a large plant nursery in the Florida sun for 35 hrs a week. I've been working ever since, including living 12 years in a 26' travel trailer as I transferred around. And 5 years on the Mexican border, often working in brutal conditions. We're living paycheck to paycheck now in a town my wife hates. Believe me, Esteli will be fine.


You may not be the typical American, but you are an American and that makes all the difference
You are talking about going to central America, not speaking Spanish, without knowing anything but what you have googled, believe me, all that hard working story of yours will not make any difference.


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> Yes,me too all the places I have moved except for Chiapas to I have moved sight unseen and made the best of it or moved again. I have never moved for a job and usually found a job after I moved however when older it does help to have enough money saved to get out of a place or have a partner that will help if you do not want to stay there.
> It also help to know the language if you move to a foreign country and want to live cheaply otherwise you end up paying the tourist price and are not able to really shop for the best price.
> 
> By the sound of it Vantexan will be better off in Nicaragua or just about anywhere so when are you going to your next adventure?


If I stick it out until I'm 55, Jan of 2017, I'll get the retiree travel discount FedEx gets on about a half dozen airlines. We get discounts on just about every airline as active employees, but 2 of the ones retirees get are American and Delta. Weighing that against just buying confirmed tickets on Spirit(the retiree discount is for standby). I may decide it's not worth working another Christmas and leave earlier.


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> You may not be the typical American, but you are an American and that makes all the difference
> You are talking about going to central America, not speaking Spanish, without knowing anything but what you have googled, believe me, all that hard working story of yours will not make any difference.


Gary, kids go down there all the time to volunteer for NGO's. I know enough Spanish to ask for things and wish people a good day. I'll learn as I go. My landlord(I've worked that out, good rep) speaks English, and I plan to hire an English speaking college student to help me as needed for things like buying prescriptions. And quite a few Nicaraguans speak English. And the English speaking expat population is growing and provides a good support network. And my point about hard work is I'm used to dealing with adversity, not a problem.

P.S. There's a good Moon guide to living in Nicaragua that I have. I've read every travel guide available and have followed every forum I could find, asking questions. Have to get my feet wet sometime.


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## citlali

There is a bus from Tapachula to Panama that goes to Nicaragua if you are pressed for money. It does all the capitals..takes a while but gets there may be cheaper than flying.

Yes some Nicaraguan speak English but the only important thing is to have the people you need to communicate with, speak English..who cares how many speak English if the ones you need to communicate with do not..

Many Mexicans speak English but that does not help me when I go to some villages where most people do not even speak Spanish... Guide books are great to give you an overview but I sure would not rely on them for everyday living...Relying on strangers to help you is a crap shoot and a good way to get ripped off in any country. Since you have 2 years to go take daily Spanish classes and learn as much as you can before you go so you will not be at the mercy of someone you do not know.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> . . .Relying on strangers to help you is a crap shoot and a good way to get ripped off in any country. Since you have 2 years to go take daily Spanish classes and learn as much as you can before you go so you will not be at the mercy of someone you do not know.


Excellent advice, citlali. Vantexan should keep in mind that even though he'll be living on a very limited income in Nicaragua, to the locals he meets he will be a rich American, and compared to way they live, he will be, and they'll try to get as much money out of him as they can. The fact that he speaks little Spanish will make him even more vulnerable to being taken advantage of.


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## GARYJ65

Less than 5% of Mexicans speak English, in Salvador, I would guess is less than that.
El Salvador is not n American friendly Country, neither is Mexico, but there are many differences
I'm just saying this not as a warning but as a precaution


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Less than 5% of Mexicans speak English, in Salvador, I would guess is less than that.
> El Salvador is not n American friendly Country, neither is Mexico, but there are many differences
> I'm just saying this not as a warning but as a precaution


Vantexan is planning to move to Nicaragua, not El Salvador. I wonder how he will feel about living in a country ruled by a Marxist government.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Vantexan is planning to move to Nicaragua, not El Salvador. I wonder how he will feel about living in a country ruled by a Marxist government.


At best they're nominally Socialist. The President, Daniel Ortega, has forgotten his socialist ways to enrich himself to close to half a billion dollars. The collectivism and central planning of the 80's are long gone.


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> Less than 5% of Mexicans speak English, in Salvador, I would guess is less than that.
> El Salvador is not n American friendly Country, neither is Mexico, but there are many differences
> I'm just saying this not as a warning but as a precaution


El Salvador uses the U.S. Dollar for it's currency and is wall to wall with a U.S. corporations. Many Salvadorans speak English as many have worked in the U.S., not to mention all the gang members deported from the U.S..


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Excellent advice, citlali. Vantexan should keep in mind that even though he'll be living on a very limited income in Nicaragua, to the locals he meets he will be a rich American, and compared to way they live, he will be, and they'll try to get as much money out of him as they can. The fact that he speaks little Spanish will make him even more vulnerable to being taken advantage of.


Wow, Mexico must be terrible!😊 Sure, there is some of that, but I see over and over from expats in Nicaragua that they get charged like everyone else, that the people are very warm and gracious. I think you have to reach a critical mass, like in Costa Rica, where there are enough expats to affect the locals' cost of living. You see some of that in Granada and San Juan del Sur, but most everywhere else in Nicaragua is still blissfully unaffected.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Vantexan is planning to move to Nicaragua, not El Salvador. I wonder how he will feel about living in a country ruled by a Marxist government.


I'm sorry, Nicaragua


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## TundraGreen

vantexan said:


> Wow, Mexico must be terrible!😊 Sure, there is some of that, but I see over and over from expats in Nicaragua that they get charged like everyone else, that the people are very warm and gracious. I think you have to reach a critical mass, like in Costa Rica, where there are enough expats to affect the locals' cost of living. You see some of that in Granada and San Juan del Sur, but most everywhere else in Nicaragua is still blissfully unaffected.


What you say makes some sense. I think there has to be a certain critical mass of outsiders before any of the locals start to think about charging them a different rate.

I go for months without seeing anyone non-Mexican and it is only in the Mercado San Juan de Dios (locally known as Taiwan de Dios) do I ever have the sense that my nationality may be affecting the negotiations. That is a large local market (the largest indoor market in ?) that is popular with tourists. Everywhere else, I am mostly the only non-Mexican customer. There is not much profit in gouging me.


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## GARYJ65

vantexan said:


> El Salvador uses the U.S. Dollar for it's currency and is wall to wall with a U.S. corporations. Many Salvadorans speak English as many have worked in the U.S., not to mention all the gang members deported from the U.S..


Let's define "speak English" first
Then, I would not want to get deported gang members as friends


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Let's define "speak English" first
> Then, I would not want to get deported gang members as friends


In this case, it might be the way some expats "speak Spanish" by picking up bits and pieces "en la calle", along with a plethora of curse words!

A deported gang member might make a great bodyguard, as long as he gets paid well.


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## citlali

Funny last time I went to Guatemala crossing the river at Escudo Jaguar I got stuck with my cousin on the bank of he river on the Guatemala side as the colectivo came in several hours late. They were 4 in ou little group and 40 maras with their girlfriends and kids waiting for the polleros to cross them and take them through Chiapas, none of them spoke English and all of them were on their way to the US-- not a group I would want to be friend with either it was bad enough to have to be there for a few hours with them.
The money changer was from El Salvador as well but lived in Bethel , Guatemala and had a nice business going crossing tourists as well. 
The Maras stayed in their hamacs and did not bother us but it was a little strange to be around that many tatooed people and I am glad they were busy relaxing.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> In this case, it might be the way some expats "speak Spanish" by picking up bits and pieces "en la calle", along with a plethora of curse words!
> 
> A deported gang member might make a great bodyguard, as long as he gets paid well.


You are right on the first one

On the second, I would never hire one of those as my bodyguard, THEY ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED IN ANY WAY


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> On the second, I would never hire one of those as my bodyguard, THEY ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED IN ANY WAY


Of course, not! My comment was made in jest!


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> I'm sorry, Nicaragua





GARYJ65 said:


> Let's define "speak English" first
> Then, I would not want to get deported gang members as friends


Who's getting them as friends? El Salvador has quite a few call centers that handle American calls.


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## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> Less than 5% of Mexicans speak English, in Salvador, I would guess is less than that.
> El Salvador is not n American friendly Country, neither is Mexico, but there are many differences
> I'm just saying this not as a warning but as a precaution


I must be missing something in Gary's post ( Mexico is not an American friendly country), or other posts by extranjeros. Those extranjeros ( mostly from NOB) that have made Lakeside their homes "forever", express to newbies and anyone who has a criticism of Mexico how warm, and friendly, and polite the Mexican citizens are to everyone, and what a safe country Mexico is to live in, all much more so than NOB. Someone is "not telling it like it is " here. Who is correct? :confused2: What is the "real" Mexico?


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> I must be missing something in Gary's post ( Mexico is not an American friendly country), or other posts by extranjeros. Those extranjeros ( mostly from NOB) that have made Lakeside their homes "forever", express to newbies and anyone who has a criticism of Mexico how warm, and friendly, and polite the Mexican citizens are to everyone, and what a safe country Mexico is to live in, all much more so than NOB. Someone is "not telling it like it is " here. Who is correct? :confused2: What is the "real" Mexico?


Let me clarify my comment:
Mexico, in this case, Mexicans, do not LOVE American people, we are not eager for Americans to come and join us, many Americans are very nice people, others aren't.
Mexican opinion in general do not favor American policies, Mexicans think that the US gets in everybody's business without being called for. And that transcends to American people.
Whenever Americans, Argentinians, Spaniards, etc. come to Mexico and are friendly and behave, most Mexicans are the same way. But Mexicans are always extra cautious towards foreigners


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## TundraGreen

GARYJ65 said:


> Let me clarify my comment:
> Mexico, in this case, Mexicans, do not LOVE American people, we are not eager for Americans to come and join us, many Americans are very nice people, others aren't.
> Mexican opinion in general do not favor American policies, Mexicans think that the US gets in everybody's business without being called for. And that transcends to American people.
> Whenever Americans, Argentinians, Spaniards, etc. come to Mexico and are friendly and behave, most Mexicans are the same way. But Mexicans are always extra cautious towards foreigners


Gary, are you generalizing from your own feelings? I have indeed met a few Mexicans who openly stated that they did not like the US. But it seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule. Even those with a dislike for the US expressed no personal animosity toward me. Contention between the US and Mexico seems entirely natural to me. We share a long land border. Between the labor market, trade, the drug trade and arms trade, we have many common opportunities and problems. It is no wonder there might be strong feelings on both sides.

Lots of people besides Mexicans, often including me, think that the US gets into everybody's business. As far as people coming to Mexico, Mexico has a net outflow of immigrants; more people leave than arrive. The numbers coming from the US are particularly small relative to the Mexican population.


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## Isla Verde

Since Gary seems to hold a certain degree of animosity towards Americans and the US, I wonder why he's chosen to participate in a forum for expats in Mexico, maybe of whom hail from "the Evil Empire".


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Since Gary seems to hold a certain degree of animosity towards Americans and the US, I wonder why he's chosen to participate in a forum for expats in Mexico, maybe of whom hail from "the Evil Empire".


The forum is open to everyone. Maybe we need to hear that not all is sweetness and light once in a while.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> The forum is open to everyone. Maybe we need to hear that not all is sweetness and light once in a while.


Of course, it's open to everyone. And I am quite aware that all is not sweetness and light in Mexico or the US or the world as a whole. I was just questioning why Gary wants to spend time on a forum filled with people from a country he has a negative opinion of. I think an answer from Gary to this question would be interesting to read. And I do appreciate Gary's participation here.


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## lagoloo

Based on my many conversations with expats from the U.S. over the years, the gamut of opinion of the U.S. runs all the way from blind love to total alienation. It's hard to get even a handful of expats to agree. For one thing, the feelings toward the "mother country" most often stem from the heart rather than from the head. You know, like political loyalties.


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## coondawg

Seems like I read somewhere recently, that 6 out of 10 Mexicans would not move to the US. THAT leaves 40% of all Mexicans that would readily move to the US if they had the chance. That's a LOT of Mexicans that evidently like what the US has to offer, no?


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## citlali

I do not take Gary´s statement as anti American: I think it represent the feelings that many people express in many countries. You could hear the same thing coming out of many European , Asian and African countries.
As an aside we were with Chiapaneco friends last week and the woman is the daughter of an illegal immigrant from Guatemala. She said to me" do not tell them you are Mexican in Guatemala as they really resent the way the Mexicans are treating the migrants and do not like Mexicans as a rule". Every country seems to have a bete noire.





I


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## citlali

There is a love/ hate felling for the US in many countries as well. I was with a bunch of kids who were taking a silly test and when they were asked which country they would like to visit and were given 5 choices, The US came out far ahead of the other country.


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## coondawg

But, 40% is not enough to "right the ship" in Mexico. My guess is that has a lot to do with why they want out.


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## GARYJ65

TundraGreen said:


> Gary, are you generalizing from your own feelings? I have indeed met a few Mexicans who openly stated that they did not like the US. But it seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule. Even those with a dislike for the US expressed no personal animosity toward me. Contention between the US and Mexico seems entirely natural to me. We share a long land border. Between the labor market, trade, the drug trade and arms trade, we have many common opportunities and problems. It is no wonder there might be strong feelings on both sides.
> 
> Lots of people besides Mexicans, often including me, think that the US gets into everybody's business. As far as people coming to Mexico, Mexico has a net outflow of immigrants; more people leave than arrive. The numbers coming from the US are particularly small relative to the Mexican population.


Dear Tundra, I am not generalizing from my feelings, I am stating what many Mexicans think and say.
It is not the exception, neither the rule, it is a very common feeling.
As for the rest of your comment, you are right and I agree, but it is not only toward Americans that Mexican citizens are cautious.


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## coondawg

I overheard someone recently say, in response to a question about why some people hate Americans so much, " they hate us because they want so badly to be one of us, and can never be."


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Seems like I read somewhere recently, that 6 out of 10 Mexicans would not move to the US. THAT leaves 40% of all Mexicans that would readily move to the US if they had the chance. That's a LOT of Mexicans that evidently like what the US has to offer, no?


As far as statistics, I would not know, if it was (as it is) a choice forme, I would not want to move to the US if I can stay in Mexico.

Talking about reality, 120,000,000 Mexicans live in Mexico, they are not trying to fly, walk, drive or swim their way to the US.
Sometimes polls just reflect what people say at a given moment, not what is the reality.
What does the US has to offer?
And what do the US has to offer to Mexicans?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Since Gary seems to hold a certain degree of animosity towards Americans and the US, I wonder why he's chosen to participate in a forum for expats in Mexico, maybe of whom hail from "the Evil Empire".


I do not have any animosity towards the US or Americans, I have worked for and with Americans many times and enjoyed it.
As to why I chose to be in this forum:
I get to read and write in English (practice)
I get to share ideas
Many times I learn from posters
Sometimes I have offered to help someone and done it
I enjoy reading how newcomers think and live in Mexico, being a newcomer descent myself
The US is not an Evil Empire, it is not even an Empire, as most Countries has it's good and bad things. You take what you want and leave the rest


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## citlali

Sorry Coondawg but many people do not hate Americans but their politics, secondly you are off on wanting to become an American, the problem is that many in the US do not realize that people wnat to work there make some money and go home, however for many it is not possible as once they are there especially illegally they tend to stay because it is dangerous to go back and forth. It destroys many families, many illegal workers have two families one in the US and one in Mexico which they may not have if they could go back and forth.

I never became a US citizen but I became a Mexican citizen so can you explain that one if all the foreigner want to be an American?

By the way if you want to see real "hate " for a group go to Paris and interview people and see if they would rather have Russians or Americans as tourists or immigrants and you may be surprised how much the Americans are loved in comparaison to the Russians.


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## GARYJ65

TundraGreen said:


> The forum is open to everyone. Maybe we need to hear that not all is sweetness and light once in a while.


This is exactly what I think of this forum.
I think that we can handle the truth, at lest one side of the truth, can't we?

I am sharing the opinion of some Mexicans, I personally like most of my foreign acquaintances. As for the US, I share many ways of thinking, but not all, and that does not make me have an attitude.


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## The Largisimo

citlali said:


> By the way if you want to see real "hate " for a group go to Paris and interview people and see if they would rather have Russians or Americans as tourists or immigrants and you may be surprised how much the Americans are loved in comparaison to the Russians.


I vacation frequently at a beach town in an Asian country that changed their visa rules to allow Russians easier access for vacations and long stays a few years back when the economy in Russia was rocking. The town had a huge influx and the other western expats that lived there complained about them more than any others (Chinese were a distant second in complaints) With the problems in Russia over the last year the influx of Russians into the beach town all but stopped. The local expats couldn't be happier. I shared buses and boats with them and never noticed anything unusual. A lot of the complaints had to do with behavior where alcohol was involved.


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## coondawg

citlali said:


> Sorry Coondawg but many people do not hate Americans but their politics, secondly you are off on wanting to become an American, the problem is that many in the US do not realize that people wnat to work there make some money and go home, however for many it is not possible as once they are there especially illegally they tend to stay because it is dangerous to go back and forth. It destroys many families, many illegal workers have two families one in the US and one in Mexico which they may not have if they could go back and forth.
> 
> I never became a US citizen but I became a Mexican citizen so can you explain that one if all the foreigner want to be an American?
> 
> By the way if you want to see real "hate " for a group go to Paris and interview people and see if they would rather have Russians or Americans as tourists or immigrants and you may be surprised how much the Americans are loved in comparaison to the Russians.


Citlali, those comments were what I overheard, not My words. And, I believe that person was referring to being "born" in the US and having "everything".


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## citlali

Last time I was in Paris I got an earful from all the locals about the Russians and then I got to experience them.. behavior is rude and arrogant when sober, I will not go into the behavior after or while drinking.
Here in Ajijic we had two women last week attack artisans for daring to sell amber that "only exist in Russia" they were screaming at the vendors calling them thieves and sellers of plastic..it was really bad. Obviously the two women are two ignoramus..another 2 ..pretty typical of what I have seen happening in Europe.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Last time I was in Paris I got an earful from all the locals about the Russians and then I got to experience them.. behavior is rude and arrogant when sober, I will not go into the behavior after or while drinking.
> Here in Ajijic we had two women last week attack artisans for daring to sell amber that "only exist in Russia" they were screaming at the vendors calling them thieves and sellers of plastic..it was really bad. Obviously the two women are two ignoramus..another 2 ..pretty typical of what I have seen happening in Europe.


No wonder Russian tourists are scorned in Paris - from the sound of things they have no class!


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## citlali

Well in a town where rudeness is part of everyday life and were tourists from many different countries are everywhere you have to be pretty bad to be noticed..


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## lagoloo

I think most of us can agree that nobody loves a loud, rude drunk.......anywhere.

How hard it is to just be polite to other people ?


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## citlali

Acually the 2 women and most of the tourists I am referring to in Paris are not even drunk! At least they would have an excuse...


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## citlali

Last figure from the French government I got was that we got 81.4 million tourists in 2013 or 14 not sure of which the Russian were 1.3 million , a small number and yet they are the first ones the locals complain about. Hopefully their number will not increase with the problems they are having. The rich Russians are getting out and buying a whole lot of very expensive realestate so they will be around for a while like they were at the start of the revolution. They populated the Pigalle area and started a lot of night clubs and fancy restaurants in those years, let´s see what they bring this time around.


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## coondawg

There seem to be quite a few wealthy Russians NOB, but I have only come in contact with a very few. Those were in a McDonald's, and they did have a different "air " about them. Whether that was good or bad, I will not venture a guess; just different(less friendly?) than Texans.


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> I overheard someone recently say, in response to a question about why some people hate Americans so much, " they hate us because they want so badly to be one of us, and can never be."


Perhaps you missed the rest of the comment; it was meant to be a joke


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## Isla Verde

:focus:, please, and thanks!


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## Caio

At this moment I'm thinking about a possible job offer in PUEBLA.
I need help to define my budget in Mexico. 

How much I'll pay for items below:

Gas (for water and cooking): (we don't cook too much)
Electric:
Water:
Phone/Internet: (I would like a nice package)
Supermarket stuff: (we don`t eat too much)
Satelite TV : ( I would like a nice package)
Private School: (bilingual, a nice one, not the best)
Car Costs: (drive 30km per day)
GYM: (for 3 persons)
Spanish or English Course: (1hr per week)
Eat out: (3 times a week)
A nice entertainment: (1 monthly)

For this budget please consider 2 adults and 10 year old girl.

Could you help me with this info?
I don`t know if I do all these things and try to do a nice travel (Cancun, Orlando, Punta Cana...) once a year I need to be rich in Mexico...


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## GARYJ65

Caio said:


> At this moment I'm thinking about a possible job offer in PUEBLA. I need help to define my budget in Mexico. How much I'll pay for items below: Gas (for water and cooking): (we don't cook too much) Electric: Water: Phone/Internet: (I would like a nice package) Supermarket stuff: (we don`t eat too much) Satelite TV : ( I would like a nice package) Private School: (bilingual, a nice one, not the best) Car Costs: (drive 30km per day) GYM: (for 3 persons) Spanish or English Course: (1hr per week) Eat out: (3 times a week) A nice entertainment: (1 monthly) For this budget please consider 2 adults and 10 year old girl. Could you help me with this info? I don`t know if I do all these things and try to do a nice travel (Cancun, Orlando, Punta Cana...) once a year I need to be rich in Mexico...


Just an opinion on one of your needs
One hour per week for language lessons won't work


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Just an opinion on one of your needs
> One hour per week for language lessons won't work


If the OP's native language is Portuguese, learning Spanish will be much easier for him than it is for English-speakers. Spanish and Portuguese are the closest cousins in the Romance language family. When I studied Portuguese in graduate schoool, my biggest problem was remembering what was like the Spanish I already knew and what was different!


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## citlali

An interesting thing too is that Portuguese seem to have no problems understanding Spanish but Spaniards have more problems understanding Portuguese. I remember travelling back and forth between Jerez de la Frontera and Oporto with a man whose mother was from Andalusia and father from London. He had problems understanding the farmers in Portugal but they understood him without much problems and I did not speak Spanish and understood some of it but understood none of the Portuguese. I wonder how an Italian would have fared..


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## Caio

what about the budget? any idea?


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## GARYJ65

I'd like to be helpful here, but I need to know a few more things:


Electricity: You should define how many appliances you have, etc.
Phone/Internet: (I would like a nice package) What would be nice package for you?
Supermarket stuff: (we don`t eat too much) Even if you don't eat too much, the quality of what you eat and where you buy your food is very important to know how much you would expend
Satellite TV : ( I would like a nice package) There are several satellite companies, once again, what a nice package means to you?
Car Costs: (drive 30km per day) What car do you own?
GYM: (for 3 persons) How good or elegant gym do you need? 
Eat out: (3 times a week) Where? What type of restaurant?
A nice entertainment: (1 monthly ) What is nice for you? Movies? Theater? VIP?


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Caio said:


> At this moment I'm thinking about a possible job offer in PUEBLA.
> I need help to define my budget in Mexico.
> 
> How much I'll pay for items below:
> 
> Gas (for water and cooking): (we don't cook too much)
> Electric:
> Water:
> Phone/Internet: (I would like a nice package)
> Supermarket stuff: (we don`t eat too much)
> Satelite TV : ( I would like a nice package)
> Private School: (bilingual, a nice one, not the best)
> Car Costs: (drive 30km per day)
> GYM: (for 3 persons)
> Spanish or English Course: (1hr per week)
> Eat out: (3 times a week)
> A nice entertainment: (1 monthly)


Re: Suggest you do a Hillary Clinton on this part of your spending list well before your daughter comes of age, or she might begin to harbor a bit of resentment:

"Private School: (bilingual, a nice one, not the best)"

Oh, sure, you treated yourself to a "nice package" on satellite TV, but just an okay school for me?


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## Caio

GARYJ65 said:


> I'd like to be helpful here, but I need to know a few more things:
> 
> 
> Electricity: You should define how many appliances you have, etc.
> Phone/Internet: (I would like a nice package) What would be nice package for you?
> Supermarket stuff: (we don`t eat too much) Even if you don't eat too much, the quality of what you eat and where you buy your food is very important to know how much you would expend
> Satellite TV : ( I would like a nice package) There are several satellite companies, once again, what a nice package means to you?
> Car Costs: (drive 30km per day) What car do you own?
> GYM: (for 3 persons) How good or elegant gym do you need?
> Eat out: (3 times a week) Where? What type of restaurant?
> A nice entertainment: (1 monthly ) What is nice for you? Movies? Theater? VIP?


eletricity: 3 tvs, notebook, moderate use of AC + BASIC kitchen stuff
phone and internet: standard phone and 6MB of internet
supermarket: buy at Walmart / Soriana, average quality, sometimes a good steak
TV: Medium pakckage 
Car: Medium Size (Maybe Nissan Tiida)
Gym: A gym that my doughter can Swim (I dont want status, but go to safe and clean place)
Eat out: most of the time in Fastfood...maybe a good restaurant per month
Entertainment: consider 1 day trip around Puebla.


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## Caio

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Re: Suggest you do a Hillary Clinton on this part of your spending list well before your daughter comes of age, or she might begin to harbor a bit of resentment:
> 
> "Private School: (bilingual, a nice one, not the best)"
> 
> Oh, sure, you treated yourself to a "nice package" on satellite TV, but just an okay school for me?


I want to invest maximum 5k pesos/month with school.
I think I can find a good option with this budget.


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## Isla Verde

Caio said:


> moderate use of AC
> 
> Eat out: most of the time in Fastfood...


I doubt you'll need AC at all living in Puebla.

Fastfood - I hope you'll give Mexican food a try. In modest eateries, it will probably cost less than (shudder) places like McDonald's and will be much tastier.


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## Caio

For sure, I have been in Mexico twice and loved the food. I talked about fastfood just for estimations


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## Hound Dog

Caio said:


> For sure, I have been in Mexico twice and loved the food. I talked about fastfood just for estimations


[/QUOTE]

Don´t worry Caio:

As you must know, having been to Mexico twice in the past, Mexico is the fast/junk food capital of the world. In fact, the exceedingly popular high calorie and carbohydrate laden foods served up seemingly on every street corner and from every "roach coach" in the country long pre-date even the first McDonalds hamburger joint doing business anywhere in the world. That´s the real reason that Mexico is rated among all nations as having, on a per-capita basis, one of the the highest number of overweight and obese people inhabiting its environs of any political jurisdiction on the planet. In fact, Mexico was recently rated just behind the United States as the the unofficial lardass capital of the universe. It is generally true that the ubiquitious junk food outlets blighting the countryide are significantly cheaper than junk food outlets crowding every urban corridor and rural outpost in the U.S. but Mexicans, with their love of fast/junk food dating back far into the nation´s history is a phenomenon that cannot be laid to the doorstep of the U.S. 

It´s true that Mexican fast food can be delicious as are those damnable galletas de avena and that sugar-laden refresco I´m thinking of gorfing down as soon as I finish the cheap and (3) delicious taco plate I just purchased at my favorite taco stand and Mexican grocer here in the poverty-stricken Seis Esquinas Neighborhood of my town on Lake Chapala where English is not spoken and U.S.-style cheeseburgers are never served. Then I´m off to Highland Chiapas where I also live where urban dwellers are notoriously fat off of mexican fast food and the rural indigenous people, who survive on a largely vegetarian diet are much thinner, generally speaking, because of a lack or shortage of money or easy access to plastic wrapped, pre-prepared animal carcasses available at local markets. It´s amazing how unappetizing a pork chop can be when you have to chase your favorite fatted pig around your home courtyard to slaughter, gut and skin it before sitting down to breakfast. 

Welcome to Mexico. Just hold the mayo on that cheeseburger and the lard on that tamal, skip the super-sweet refresco or shots of tequila in Jalisco or pox in Chiapas and you´ll be OK.


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## Waller52

Sorry if it is bad posture to post to a thread that ended a few months ago but I read the entire thing, took notes, and am very grateful to all who participated in it. A great primer.


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## jlms

PieGrande said:


> This is Mexico. I don't know if it is kosher or not. So, I am recommending if your builder says, "Yes, we do that here," which is what I was told here, you don't put a large sign up telling why. You are in Mexico now, not in the US.
> 
> I sort of suspect it is not illegal, because it is common here to have separate meters for renters. I have seen houses with a lot of meters in front if the house is divided into separate rooms.
> 
> The reason I am being what you call "coy" is because I am very risk averse. I see no reason to tell CFE why I would do it. And, I see no reason not to do it if needed, and if your builder says it is a good idea.
> 
> Let me point out here while neighbors have done this, I have not, because we are not high consumption users. If for some reason I moved into the high use range, I would do it if my builder said it was okay, but I still would not feel compelled to blurt out to the CFE guys why I was doing it.



Electricity tariffs switch to "alto consumo" after a specific threshold (which depends how hot the place where you live is, in order to make an allowance for air conditioning usage).

This may be a dumb way to sell electricity, but it is the way and by not following the rules one would be committing fraud, and sorry, one is not exonerated just because everybody else is doing it.

I would also be careful with such a cowboy electrician connecting your 2 meters, if they take freedoms like this goodness knows where else they may be cutting corners.


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## RVGRINGO

To get a second meter, the space it serves must be an entirely separate and complete living area with kitchen, bath, etc. and have its own entrance to the street.


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## citlali

This not correct. I have 2 meters because I have two lots and the second meter is connected to the pool only.
In Chiapas I have one lot two meters. The second meter covers the utility area one bath and a bedroom, only one entrance from the street. This was done by an engineering firm and with permits so the rules are not always the same and it depends on your situation.


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## RVGRINGO

With two addresses, no problem. But we were fortunate in Chapala to have frontage on two streets, so had one meter for the house, one for the separate casita, and one more for the pool and back yard from the third address.
I remember when a friend bought a home in upper Chula Vista with two meters. he thought that was inconvenient and had his electrician remove one and consolidate the circuits into a single meter. Boy, was he sorry when DAC took him to the cleaners. He was never able to regain the seconc meter.


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## citlali

I have only one address in Chiapas and still got two meters so it is not the same everywhere. It probably depends on how the house is set up .


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## Hound Dog

_


RVGRINGO said:



With two addresses, no problem. But we were fortunate in Chapala to have frontage on two streets, so had one meter for the house, one for the separate casita, and one more for the pool and back yard from the third address.
I remember when a friend bought a home in upper Chula Vista with two meters. he thought that was inconvenient and had his electrician remove one and consolidate the circuits into a single meter. Boy, was he sorry when DAC took him to the cleaners. He was never able to regain the seconc meter.

Click to expand...

_Ah yes. The separate meter thingy. As Citlali wrote, in San Cristóbal de Las Casas we were able to use two meters back in 2006 when we refurbished a ruin down there as our primary residence in Southern Mexico. We also have two meters at our residence in Ajijic on Lake Chapala - one for the swimming pool and one for the residence - and we believe a previous owner installed two meters so that any tenant´s swimming pool energy could be separately measured.

We now have solar energy in Ajijic so this is no longer an issue as our monthly electricty bills are now miniscule at the lake thanks to those solar panels but there for a while we were on the exhorbitant DAC rate with CFE at Lake Chapala while CFE subsidized our tiny electrical charges in San Cristóbal as a reward for our conservative and limited electricity use. Ironic and amusing.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> To get a second meter, the space it serves must be an entirely separate and complete living area with kitchen, bath, etc. and have its own entrance to the street.


In this situation, two meters seems legitimate to me. 

Having two meters for one house or a separate meter for a pool or other high usage device strikes me as illegal. The purpose of Mexico's DAC rate is to discourage the consumption of electricity. In my opinion that is a good thing. It is fine for people to have heated swimming pools, but they should pay their fair share if they choose to do so.

I have one meter and am well below the DAC rate and am thinking seriously about adding solar panels to further reduce my usage even though it is not economically a good investment. I already have solar hot water. So you can tell where I come from on this subject.

This probably brands me as a spoilsport, but it is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


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## citlali

No it is not illegal for us to have a separate meter for the pool becuse we have 2 lots so 2 addresses for that house.
It is also not illegal if you have a house on one address and part of the house can be used by a different part of the family, that is something that happens a lot in San Cristobal.


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## citlali

By the way Tundragreen I do not know anyone who has electric heaters for their pools...that is a funny thought. Pools are heated by solar and or gaz and our pool is not heated. It is the circulation pump that uses electricity and ours runs 120 pesos a month and is not on the solar system so still under DAC.


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> By the way Tundragreen I do not know anyone who has electric heaters for their pools...that is a funny thought. Pools are heated by solar and or gaz and our pool is not heated. It is the circulation pump that uses electricity and ours runs 120 pesos a month and is not on the solar system so still under DAC.


I was not intentionally pointing fingers at anyone in particular. 

I do not know the intricacies of the rules on meters. If someone has two meters legally because they have two lots or two houses at two addresses or whatever, it is fine with me. My comment was directed at the idea that one should or could split a single electric usage between two meters solely for the purpose of circumventing the DAC.


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## citlali

Well sometimes you can split it and sometimes you cannot and it has nothing to do with right or wrong or fair on unfair, it has to do with the way the property is set up. I know wealthy people who have several casitas and huge houses and have a bunch of meters...not that they need them as they rarely use the house bt I guess at one time they wanted to make sure the bill was not going to be too high...who knows..


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## lagoloo

TundraGreen said:


> I was not intentionally pointing fingers at anyone in particular.
> 
> I do not know the intricacies of the rules on meters. If someone has two meters legally because they have two lots or two houses at two addresses or whatever, it is fine with me. My comment was directed at the idea that one should or could split a single electric usage between two meters solely for the purpose of circumventing the DAC.


I know of one couple who has three meters for CFE on their outside wall. Only two people live there and there is no casita, but it is a large home and they have a swimming pool.
I've always wondered how that worked.


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## Waller52

lagoloo said:


> I know of one couple who has three meters for CFE on their outside wall. Only two people live there and there is no casita, but it is a large home and they have a swimming pool.
> I've always wondered how that worked.


It is then true that you can install multiple meters, have those meters approved after install, read, billed and paid on, then have the CFE, for whatever reason, apply additional charges that would be equal to DAC overages when they choose to do so. If this is accurate then having multiple meters is a crapshoot which, regardless of the fairness of the situation, could end up biting you in the a$$ bigtime.

Aside from the ethics, multiple meters in situations where there is only one household is a gamble. Do I have this accurately assessed?


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## Cristobal

You don't install meters. CFE provides and installs the meters. And they will more than likely want to see some type of justification before installing more than one.


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## AlanMexicali

Cristobal said:


> You don't install meters. CFE provides and installs the meters. And they will more than likely want to see some type of justification before installing more than one.


In Mexicali, at least 10 years ago, the CFE sends an inspector to your place when applying for a second meter in a residential service. You install the meter box yourself and the pole up to connect the lines. He checks the space you want the meter for and it is exactly what RV stated in his post. Separate entrance, full bathroom, kitchen sink, separate wiring, fridge and stove, propane tank and water heater if you have one and a separate air conditioner if you have one.


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## Cristobal

AlanMexicali said:


> In Mexicali, at least 10 years ago, the CFE sends an inspector to your place when applying for a second meter in a residential service. You install the meter box yourself and the pole up to connect the lines. He checks the space you want the meter for and it is exactly what RV stated in his post. Separate entrance, full bathroom, kitchen sink, separate wiring, fridge and stove, propane tank and water heater if you have one and a separate air conditioner if you have one.


Yes Alan, all of that has already been explained. The other poster appeared to be under the impression that someone other than the CFE installed the meter. The meters belong to the CFE not the homeowner.


----------



## Hound Dog

_


RVGRINGO said:



To get a second meter, the space it serves must be an entirely separate and complete living area with kitchen, bath, etc. and have its own entrance to the street.

Click to expand...

_Not so. Both of our our residential properties in Ajijic and San Cristóbal de Las Casas have two separate meters , both streetside but neither home has but one entrance to the street. These homes have only one kitchen and one living room each. As for the swimming pool in Ajijic, the electrical meter that measures electrical usage for the swimming pool measures the energy used in running the pool´circulation pumps and some lighting at the pool and, as stated earlier , the separate meter was installed so a prior owner/landlord who wanted to measure the pool´s electrical usage when it was utilized by tenants. The pool is not heated but if it were , the heat source would certainly never be electrical - in fact - I never Heard of an electrically heated swimming pool. We have a propane gas heater but never use it and simply swim in cold wáter if at all although we are considering the feasibility of a combination of solar panels supplemented by propane.

By the way, we incurred the substantial capital outlay required to install solar panels a few years ago so we not only use a miniscule amount of CFE´s electric power generation and, at certain times of the year, we generate excess electricity we feed back to the grid for consumers without supplemental solar power generating capacity. Talk about civic-mindedness. 

As liong as we are on the subject of the use of solar panels to supplement power fed us by CFE, here is something for those of you contemplating that possibility to chew on:

Does the installation of solar panels make sense for you where you live? Well, for us it does at Lake Chapala because of the abundance of sunshine available at the lake to generate electrical power. People who do not live at the lake tend to underestimate the incredible, dependable, year-round sunny climate hereabouts but this is one of the most appropriate places on the planet for solar electrical generation. On the other hand, at our home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas down in Chiapas, we do not consider the capital outlay for solar panels to be a practical alternative as San Cristóbal is subject to incessant overcast and copious rains so there is not enough brilliant sunshine to warrant solar power in our judgment. One needs to assess the climate and availablity of sunshine where one lives and must couple with that one´s anticipated electrical usage in the future.

Here is our experience in the Six Corners área of the Chapala delegation of Ajijic where we have resided since 2001. Before the installation of the solar panels right at four years ago, we were paying the equivalent of mas o meno $200USD a month for electricity and were saddled with the high DAC rate. After the installation of the solar panles on our roof, our electrical bill is typically less than the equivalent of $10USD a month for an average savings of some $190USD a month. Our investment in the purchase and installation of the panels by E-SUN Energy with a branch office in Ajijic (very important), cost us the equivalent of almost $10,000USD. So, now for some Kentucky Windage. If we have saved on average $190USD a month for four years (48 months) then we have saved just over $8,000USD during those four years and within the next two years we should have broken even. After that; we will be paying under $10USD a month to CFE for electicity for as long as we inhabit this Lake Chapala property and I can assure the reader that the property will be worth more at sale with those panels than it would be without them even though we have no intention of selling this home despite that Chiapas property we own because who in their right mind would desert one of the world´s greatest climates where one can depend on monthly electricity charges from CFE of under $10USD forever? Yeah, yeah, the Chiapas Highlands can be more interesting culturally speaking than the Lake Chapala community but in my dotage I like endless sunny days - to each his/her own.


----------



## Waller52

TundraGreen said:


> I do not know the intricacies of the rules on meters. If someone has two meters legally because they have two lots or two houses at two addresses or whatever, it is fine with me. My comment was directed at the idea that one should or could split a single electric usage between two meters solely for the purpose of circumventing the DAC.


Is this an interesting topic or what? 

If I am the CFE, I would be saying to meCFEself _"what a gold mine we have in reserve, all we have to do is redefine [without grandfathering] the multiple meter usage rules and 'backtax' those with them."
_
Talk about windfalls...


----------



## lagoloo

As we speak, two more solar panels are being installed upstairs. Our initial installation a few years ago was a little cheaper than it would have been ten years ago, and it's nearly paid for itself. I hear they're having a hissy at the power companies as the solar panels are getting less costly and more installations are "cheating" them out of revenue.
All I can say is nanernanernaner to those power companies, with finger wagging on nose.


----------



## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> Not so. Both of our our residential properties in Ajijic and San Cristóbal de Las Casas have two separate meters , both streetside but neither home has but one entrance to the street. These homes have only one kitchen and one living room each. As for the swimming pool in Ajijic, the electrical meter that measures electrical usage for the swimming pool measures the energy used in running the pool´circulation pumps and some lighting at the pool and, as stated earlier , the separate meter was installed so a prior owner/landlord who wanted to measure the pool´s electrical usage when it was utilized by tenants. The pool is not heated but if it were , the heat source would certainly never be electrical - in fact - I never Heard of an electrically heated swimming pool. We have a propane gas heater but never use it and simply swim in cold wáter if at all although we are considering the feasibility of a combination of solar panels supplemented by propane.
> 
> By the way, we incurred the substantial capital outlay required to install solar panels a few years ago so we not only use a miniscule amount of CFE´s electric power generation and, at certain times of the year, we generate excess electricity we feed back to the grid for consumers without supplemental solar power generating capacity. Talk about civic-mindedness.
> 
> As liong as we are on the subject of the use of solar panels to supplement power fed us by CFE, here is something for those of you contemplating that possibility to chew on:
> 
> Does the installation of solar panels make sense for you where you live? Well, for us it does at Lake Chapala because of the abundance of sunshine available at the lake to generate electrical power. People who do not live at the lake tend to underestimate the incredible, dependable, year-round sunny climate hereabouts but this is one of the most appropriate places on the planet for solar electrical generation. On the other hand, at our home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas down in Chiapas, we do not consider the capital outlay for solar panels to be a practical alternative as San Cristóbal is subject to incessant overcast and copious rains so there is not enough brilliant sunshine to warrant solar power in our judgment. One needs to assess the climate and availablity of sunshine where one lives and must couple with that one´s anticipated electrical usage in the future.
> 
> Here is our experience in the Six Corners área of the Chapala delegation of Ajijic where we have resided since 2001. Before the installation of the solar panels right at four years ago, we were paying the equivalent of mas o meno $200USD a month for electricity and were saddled with the high DAC rate. After the installation of the solar panles on our roof, our electrical bill is typically less than the equivalent of $10USD a month for an average savings of some $190USD a month. Our investment in the purchase and installation of the panels by E-SUN Energy with a branch office in Ajijic (very important), cost us the equivalent of almost $10,000USD. So, now for some Kentucky Windage. If we have saved on average $190USD a month for four years (48 months) then we have saved just over $8,000USD during those four years and within the next two years we should have broken even. After that; we will be paying under $10USD a month to CFE for electicity for as long as we inhabit this Lake Chapala property and I can assure the reader that the property will be worth more at sale with those panels than it would be without them even though we have no intention of selling this home despite that Chiapas property we own because who in their right mind would desert one of the world´s greatest climates where one can depend on monthly electricity charges from CFE of under $10USD forever? Yeah, yeah, the Chiapas Highlands can be more interesting culturally speaking than the Lake Chapala community but in my dotage I like endless sunny days - to each his/her own.


HD, I am interested in your solar panel experience. My bimonthly bill is under $200 mxn (about $13 usd), so it is not economy that is driving me. I just would prefer to use more renewable energy. However, your cost ($10,000 usd) seems high. Can you clarify, how much of that was parts and how much installation? I am under the impression that I can get panels for a few hundred dollars each. For my limited usage, two should be sufficient. And I expect to do the installation myself. Am I missing something?


----------



## Waller52

TundraGreen said:


> Can you clarify, how much of that was parts and how much installation? I am under the impression that I can get panels for a few hundred dollars each. For my limited usage, two should be sufficient. And I expect to do the installation myself. Am I missing something?


I have put in an antifreeze-based hot water only solar system and have had installed water-based solar systems (pool heating). No way would I put in a system myself again unless it was plug-n-play, 120v/208/220v such as Google "plugged solar"

YMMV if you like working on roofs or building support stands (rough carpentry), run wire, install batteries, etc.


----------



## citlali

Tundragreen you would have to have to get a quote from a solar comapny as you would not need as many panels as we have your cost would be way down from ours. Not sure I would bother to install panels for what you spend and the longer you wait and the lower the prices of the panels are. Just get a quote and judge for yourself.
You also need to change your meter as CFE gives you credit for the electricity you produce and bills you for what you use.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Plus: You will need microinverters (the best approach, I understand) or a single inverter to provide 120V to the new two-way meter.


----------



## TundraGreen

Waller52 said:


> I have put in an antifreeze-based hot water only solar system and have had installed water-based solar systems (pool heating). No way would I put in a system myself again unless it was plug-n-play, 120v/208/220v such as Google "plugged solar"
> 
> YMMV if you like working on roofs or building support stands (rough carpentry), run wire, install batteries, etc.


My roof is absolutely flat, albeit with several levels. I sometimes have parties on it. So, working on a roof is not a problem. I am not going the battery route but rather the "grid tie" route, so installation will be pretty easy. I have to run power to the roof and install an outlet for the panels to plug into. But the solar installation will be part of a general rewiring of the entire house, so adding an outlet for them is not an issue. I expect to purchase stands for the panels. I would really like to use sun-tracking mounts but the cost and complexity are overkill for my simple needs. I installed my solar hot water system. I put in network of valves (7 altogether) so that I can use straight solar, straight water heater, or solar preheat to the water heater, plus shut offs for the water supply to the system. That installation involved 86 copper solder joints. This should be much easier.


----------



## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> Tundragreen you would have to have to get a quote from a solar comapny as you would not need as many panels as we have your cost would be way down from ours. Not sure I would bother to install panels for what you spend and the longer you wait and the lower the prices of the panels are. Just get a quote and judge for yourself.
> You also need to change your meter as CFE gives you credit for the electricity you produce and bills you for what you use.





RVGRINGO said:


> Plus: You will need microinverters (the best approach, I understand) or a single inverter to provide 120V to the new two-way meter.


If I remember correctly, a quote I got of $14,000 mxn for each panel included the mounts and an inverter for each. This was a couple of years ago, so I am hopeful that the price has come down. As I mentioned in the other post, I plan to rewire the house first. The house is very old. It had no wiring when it was first constructed. The wiring was added later, but still a long time ago. There is no grounding anywhere. The good news is that all of the wiring is stapled to the walls so it is easy to get at and remove. I will get a new meter and install new distribution boxes at the same time. Currently, the whole house runs on two wires with a single 30 amp fuse on each wire.


----------



## mr_manny

RVGRINGO said:


> Plus: You will need microinverters (the best approach, I understand) or a single inverter to provide 120V to the new two-way meter.


If your building, and interested in adding solar the future...would that be the time to install the 2-way meters?

These solar friendly meters replace the standard meters, right?


----------



## roni

We spend a bunch on rent - for a 3 bedroom with a pool in Merida, Yucatan - more than some of you spend on everything. All told, we spend about 30,000 pesos a month.

I did not move here to live like a pauper and we do not - but it is all in the budget and all good. We have friends here who live for 1/2 of that. We could too if we owned a house. I prefer to rent at this point in our lives.


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## CAchicana

Isla Verde, is that a Mexican private health insurance? Taking notes here....(smile) doing research for future.


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## Isla Verde

CAchicana said:


> Isla Verde, is that a Mexican private health insurance? Taking notes here....(smile) doing research for future.


What page of this thread is my post on?


----------



## Mexico Bound

Am wondering if a single person could live a U.S. type middle class life in Tequis, Queretaro for $1,000 U.S. a month? Thank you Mexico Bound


----------



## Isla Verde

Mexico Bound said:


> Am wondering if a single person could live a U.S. type middle class life in Tequis, Queretaro for $1,000 U.S. a month? Thank you Mexico Bound


That partly depends on how you define a U.S. type middle class life. Some details of how you define it would help us answer your question.


----------



## sparks

Mexico Bound said:


> Am wondering if a single person could live a U.S. type middle class life in Tequis, Queretaro for $1,000 U.S. a month? Thank you Mexico Bound


Complicated by the fact you need about $1500 to qualify for a resident visa


----------



## AlanMexicali

Mexico Bound said:


> Am wondering if a single person could live a U.S. type middle class life in Tequis, Queretaro for $1,000 U.S. a month? Thank you Mexico Bound


In San Diego I can only guess a single person would need at least before taxes $50,000 and in some other states as low as $38,000 to live a standard bottom of the scale middle class lifestyle according to statistics. Upper scale would be $120,000 and over in many places.

Here if you want a $50,000 US type lifestyle as in SD my guess is it will cost you roughly $2,300 to $3500 per month minumum at $15.50 pesos to a dollar but if and when the peso goes up roughly $3,000 US or more per month.

So in conclusion $1000.00 US per month at the present would let you live a working class type lifestyle where rent, furnishings, type of entertainment etc. and as in San Diego driving a 7 or 8 year old or more vehicle and not buying a nice new vehicle every 5 or 6 years as middle class people usually do, at least in SD. Your biggest saving from the US might be rent if you come from a more fluential area, not many other places where rent is lower. Just my opinion.


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## TundraGreen

I live on less than $1000 a month for all my Mexico living expenses. If you include travel outside the country, I spend a bit more. But many might not call my life style middle class.


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## Isla Verde

I live in Mexico City and spend around $1000 US a month for almost everything except medical expenses. I live in a very small apartment, do not have a car (no need for one here), eat out quite a bit at neighborhood eateries, enjoy the cultural charms of the city (which are often free or half-price for senior citizens) and have a great life. Not sure, though, how middle-class and American-style the OP would consider it.


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## WilliamAshley

It depends on the area of Mexico.


Survive 200 pesos /month (buns are cheap lots of dogs, fish cacti, fruit etc.. you can get in growing food if you are there long term like some Mayans do.) With a water filter you should be able to find water. Sleeping outside is totally doable in Mexico if you find spots you wont get into legal trouble for doing it. Sustenance is possible but it takes work, chickens etc.. the jungle is not incredibly hospitable imo unless you are established. 

4000 you have food and shelter in abundance

live well 6000 pesos good food and some middle income entertainment

live like a king 30,000/month and up. at 30000 a month you would have a constant stream of entertainment. 
There is no limit to that number though I suppose it would be hard to spend more than 500 000 pesos a month on living, you'd need to start buying expensve items like boats, cars and property.


----------



## JpWalia

Isla Verde said:


> I live in Mexico City and spend around $1000 US a month for almost everything except medical expenses. I live in a very small apartment, do not have a car (no need for one here), eat out quite a bit at neighborhood eateries, enjoy the cultural charms of the city (which are often free or half-price for senior citizens) and have a great life. Not sure, though, how middle-class and American-style the OP would consider it.


You seems live without materialism, worry and enjoying present moment. I always think to live like this down to earth. No much gadgets, good neighborhood, truly living, local cultures things.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Me Ayudas Por Favor?*

Hello, First post from 2ndtime 
>
I am asking for some feedback on my budget from those *LIVING IN GUADALAJARA *or know about it.
>
I am returning to Guadalajara to “retire.” 
>
I lived In Guadalajara from 1985 to 1990. Mostly in Chapalita near the Plaza Del Sol shopping Center. I still speak a very respectable Spanish. I had 1 BR apartment, total 600-650 sq ft (nice size and I will not tell what I paid or rent back then) 
>
I have been in Mexico 2006-2009 various places on business for 2-3 days quick hit and run south of DF and always in nice hotels. Those days are gone (sad story) 
>
Below is my NOW net per month USD budget ( I think in dollars for now) to live. 
I will walk the neighborhoods and find my own apartment in a 100% Spanish speaking area. 
>
QUESTION: In today’s market, is it possible to rent long term simple, clean 1 (maybe 2) bedroom apartment (furnished /amueblado) (Not Gated) in an “OK” area (I am very comfortable in my ‘presence’ and my Spanish), with the BELOW following budget (USD )
>
RENT 450/475
Electric and Gas	75
Food At Home	300
Water 40
Internet (Fastest)	85
Direct TV 50
Cell Phones	$50
Entertainment	100
Mail Forwarding Svc	40
Toileties / Meds	15
Public Transp	75
Misc 75
*Total 1355*
International Medical Insurance is already paid for 
>
(Entertainment is dining out 2-4 times a week at an everyday local restaurant and enjoying live music and movies any nights of the week I want.
>
I will have a 90 day tourist visa and the American counselot (sp) will extend it an other 90 days (At least they did back then)
>
Muchas gracias por tu ayuda y suerte en todos tus projectos


----------



## TundraGreen

2ndtime said:


> Hello, First post from 2ndtime
> >
> I am asking for some feedback on my budget from those *LIVING IN GUADALAJARA *or know about it.
> >
> I am returning to Guadalajara to “retire.”
> >
> I lived In Guadalajara from 1985 to 1990. Mostly in Chapalita near the Plaza Del Sol shopping Center. I still speak a very respectable Spanish. I had 1 BR apartment, total 600-650 sq ft (nice size and I will not tell what I paid or rent back then)
> >
> I have been in Mexico 2006-2009 various places on business for 2-3 days quick hit and run south of DF and always in nice hotels. Those days are gone (sad story)
> >
> Below is my NOW net per month USD budget ( I think in dollars for now) to live.
> I will walk the neighborhoods and find my own apartment in a 100% Spanish speaking area.
> >
> QUESTION: In today’s market, is it possible to rent long term simple, clean 1 (maybe 2) bedroom apartment (furnished /amueblado) (Not Gated) in an “OK” area (I am very comfortable in my ‘presence’ and my Spanish), with the BELOW following budget (USD )
> >
> RENT 450/475
> Electric and Gas	75
> Food At Home	300
> Water 40
> Internet (Fastest)	85
> Direct TV 50
> Cell Phones	$50
> Entertainment	100
> Mail Forwarding Svc	40
> Toileties / Meds	15
> Public Transp	75
> Misc 75
> *Total 1355*
> International Medical Insurance is already paid for
> >
> (Entertainment is dining out 2-4 times a week at an everyday local restaurant and enjoying live music and movies any nights of the week I want.
> >
> I will have a 90 day tourist visa and the American counselot (sp) will extend it an other 90 days (At least they did back then)
> >
> Muchas gracias por tu ayuda y suerte en todos tus projectos


Sounds pretty generous to me. I spend less than that by considerable in every category. So even if you spend more than I do in many categories, you would probably still be within your budget.

Just to comment on rent, a friend lives in Chapalita in a fairly new (he was first tenant) furnished two bedroom apartment and pays $7000 mxn. Your rent budget translates to $7200/$7600.


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## AlanMexicali

"I will have a 90 day tourist visa and the American counselot (sp) will extend it an other 90 days (At least they did back then)"

The INM or Mexican Immigration will give you the FMM tourist card for usually 180 days when arriving by air on an international flight. Cost is included in the flight payment.

The American government doesn´t deal with Americans needing tourist permits for Mexico. Only Mexicans needing US tourist permits to visit the USA.


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## 2ndtime

TundraGreen said:


> Sounds pretty generous to me. I spend less than that by considerable in every category. So even if you spend more than I do in many categories, you would probably still be within your budget.
> 
> Just to comment on rent, a friend lives in Chapalita in a fairly new (he was first tenant) furnished two bedroom apartment and pays $7000 mxn. Your rent budget translates to $7200/$7600.


Thank you so much for your input.

I am also considering somewhere in "Nice year round weather, non-touristy Nicaragua city/puebla.

I am 63 years old and I will be studying online for my Master Degree - Dual Major -Info Systems Technology/Project Management using Federal student loans. 

During my two year study time I'll be making contacts/connections by joining the proper business associations and mingle with the industry at the local and "Real People" level. 

(God Bless Obama and the Dept of Education)

The secret to working in Mexico (NO papers necessary) is to make sure you stand shoulder to shoulder with your Mexican partner/Organization. 

In Mexico (for sure) The Law Is 1) What ever They what it to be 2) The Moment

Que te vaya muy bien!


----------



## 2ndtime

*Cool*



AlanMexicali said:


> "I will have a 90 day tourist visa and the American counselot (sp) will extend it an other 90 days (At least they did back then)"
> 
> The INM or Mexican Immigration will give you the FMM tourist card for usually 180 days when arriving by air on an international flight. Cost is included in the flight payment.
> 
> The American government doesn´t deal with Americans needing tourist permits for Mexico. Only Mexicans needing US tourist permits to visit the USA.


Well, then I'm Golden- Thanks for the heads up


----------



## Isla Verde

2ndtime said:


> The secret to working in Mexico (NO papers necessary) is to make sure you stand shoulder to shoulder with your Mexican partner/Organization.


Are you planning to work in Mexico without the proper visa? This is not a good idea.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Budgeting For Traffic Violation*

My take of The Law Is The Moment, 3) Traffic Violation - The Mordida Dance: 
>
(Said with Love and Affection AND to make Expats aware to have this money available as part of their budget)) 
>
As the GDL policeman flags me in my car to pull over for whatever unknown reason and now he approaches my vehicle, I calmly take the prepared Cash out of the glove box, where it's easy to get to and I put the Mordida under the drivers license so it cannot be seen by him or the public (I do not want to offend his integrity) and as I pass my "license" to the officer of the law, I say must politely with respect, "Ojala, Ya arreglamos la situation" (I hope, WE have now fixed the situation) He looks at my Drivers License (a photocopy of course) for a meaningful 3-4 seconds and passes back my "license" (Sin Mordida) and with a stern smile, he says to me, "Esta Bien" and I say "Gracias Senoir" and the Dance is done.
>
And to tell you the truth, I find It bizarre and exciting at the same time because it out of "our ******" realm of reality. 
>
I love Mexico, Actually, I love the Mexican Woman and put up with the rest of their ****!! 
>
Que te vaya muy bien!


----------



## 2ndtime

*Tried and true method from years past but...*



Isla Verde said:


> Are you planning to work in Mexico without the proper visa? This is not a good idea.


Well OK, As I meet these Mexican business men and when I come to an employment agreement with one, some, an organization (and I will), 
>
They will get the whatever paper work done for me (thru their friends) quicker than you can say, "You mean you didn't have to back over the border and fill out forms and wait and wait..." 

When I lived in GDL during the Mudial, I did Four years of business with a Mexican Partner in Guadalajara openly involved in working on producing "Rock En Tu Idiom" concerts in large public theaters, stages and discotheques.

Especially in Mexico, Its Who You Know (and I knew a couple of the Right People)

It was FUN!!!!


----------



## GARYJ65

2ndtime said:


> My take of The Law Is The Moment, 3) Traffic Violation - The Mordida Dance: > (Said with Love and Affection AND to make Expats aware to have this money available as part of their budget)) > As the GDL policeman flags me in my car to pull over for whatever unknown reason and now he approaches my vehicle, I calmly take the prepared Cash out of the glove box, where it's easy to get to and I put the Mordida under the drivers license so it cannot be seen by him or the public (I do not want to offend his integrity) and as I pass my "license" to the officer of the law, I say must politely with respect, "Ojala, Ya arreglamos la situation" (I hope, WE have now fixed the situation) He looks at my Drivers License (a photocopy of course) for a meaningful 3-4 seconds and passes back my "license" (Sin Mordida) and with a stern smile, he says to me, "Esta Bien" and I say "Gracias Senoir" and the Dance is done. > And to tell you the truth, I find It bizarre and exciting at the same time because it out of "our ******" realm of reality. > I love Mexico, Actually, I love the Mexican Woman and put up with the rest of their ****!! > Que te vaya muy bien!


It's very sad to pay bribes
That is one of many reasons of why that still happens


----------



## coondawg

Very interesting thread, no?


----------



## 2ndtime

*Difference of opinion*



GARYJ65 said:


> It's very sad to pay bribes
> That is one of many reasons of why that still happens


>
DIFFERENCE OF OPINION
I can't wait till you are confronted with a Mexican Policeman (who depend on mordida to augment their feeble salary) and stick your ****** Goodie-Goodie Nose up at him and not contribute...
>
I'll be hanging out with my friends in the front row drinking una cervesa fria, watching the clown show.
>
Send me a postcard from inside their rotting prison and Let me if the "accommodations" are working out for you?


----------



## 2ndtime

coondawg said:


> Very interesting thread, no?


>
Thanks, I try to make it a lively event... But done with taste and knownlegde of the subject at hand...
>
I married (and years later divorced) una Tappatia mujer (Woman from Jalisco, Tappatia means in this case, horse leg thought to be sexy and they ARE!!)


----------



## Cristobal

2ndtime said:


> >
> DIFFERENCE OF OPINION
> I can't wait till you are confronted with a Mexican Policeman (who depend on mordida to augment their feeble salary) and stick your ****** Goodie-Goodie Nose up at him and not contribute...
> >
> I'll be hanging out with my friends in the front row drinking una cervesa fria, watching the clown show.
> >
> Send me a postcard from inside their rotting prison and Let me if the "accommodations" are working out for you?


Gary is a Mexcican citizen, born and raised in this country. I am a Mexican citizen and have lived here since the early 70s. Tell us again how to deal with traffic cops or any other little day to day circumstance that may arise.

I don't pay mordidas. I rarely get stopped but when I do, I deal with the transito in a firm and polite manner which often results in not even getting a ticket. On the few occasions they have attempted a shakedown, I let them know that a mordida is out of the question.

And btw, you don't double the p in Spanish. It's tapatía.


----------



## coondawg

2ndtime said:


> >
> DIFFERENCE OF OPINION
> I can't wait till you are confronted with a Mexican Policeman (who depend on mordida to augment their feeble salary) and stick your ****** Goodie-Goodie Nose up at him and not contribute...
> >
> I'll be hanging out with my friends in the front row drinking una cervesa fria, watching the clown show.
> >
> Send me a postcard from inside their rotting prison and Let me if the "accommodations" are working out for you?


FYI, Gary is full blood Mexican Citizen and has lived here all his life. However, you have a point, in that Mexicans can get away with treating Mexican police in a manner that an extranjero can not.


----------



## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> FYI, Gary is full blood Mexican Citizen and has lived here all his life. However, you have a point, in that Mexicans can get away with treating Mexican police in a manner that an extranjero can not.


Extranjero or not, I never give bribe money.
Nor here or anywhere
I find it disgraceful for me, rather pay the ticket, usually they let me go ... Sometimes with a warning, some other times because I tell them how low they are by asking for a bribe


----------



## 2ndtime

*Danger-danger*



Cristobal said:


> Gary is a Mexcican citizen, born and raised in this country. I am a Mexican citizen and have lived here since the early 70s. Tell us again how to deal with traffic cops or any other little day to day circumstance that may arise.
> 
> I don't pay mordidas. I rarely get stopped but when I do, I deal with the transito in a firm and polite manner which often results in not even getting a ticket. On the few occasions they have attempted a shakedown, I let them know that a mordida is out of the question.
> 
> And btw, you don't double the p in Spanish. It's tapatía.


Danger-Danger - I misspelled a word, Please Senoir, Just don't beat me !!!
>
Pardon me for trying to incorporate some Spanish into my thread, Bad Boy, Go to the corner and Do a Time-Out and think about why you are being punished... 
> 
You know on second thought I agree with you 100% about mordida and greasing the palms of the corrupt police force and to prove that we are blogs friends, blood brothers forever, ...here is the story of one of your compatriot Mexican citizen, my good friend, standing up for his rights in the following story; may God strike me dead if it's not true. 
>
My Mexican friend was driving his car and I was sitting in the front passenger seat. He forgot to signal and the policeman pulled him over. When the policeman appeared at his driver's-side window the two Mexican citizens entered into a very heated conversation over how much mordida the policeman wanted and how much my friend was willing to give. They finally agreed upon a certain sum. My Mexican friend went to his glove compartment and pulled out unfortunately a large bill. He handed the large bill to the policeman and demanded change back, ....which he received…
>
And now back to our regular scheduled thread.
>
PS- since you got me on the spelling of one of your Mexican words, I feel it's only right for me to ask, 1) find the independent, dependent clauses and dangling participles in the sentences above. 2) Tell me if I should use the transient verb as opposed to an action verb, “spelling”. 3) let me know if the adverb in “very heated conversation” is modifying the adjective or the verb.
>
Easy Man, Too much Mexican Machismo/Testosterone flowing here


----------



## TundraGreen

"Danger - Danger" is a good comment on this thread. Everyone needs to calm down or the thread will be closed.


----------



## Isla Verde

2ndtime said:


> >
> DIFFERENCE OF OPINION
> I can't wait till you are confronted with a Mexican Policeman (who depend on mordida to augment their feeble salary) and stick your ****** Goodie-Goodie Nose up at him and not contribute...
> >
> I'll be hanging out with my friends in the front row drinking una cervesa fria, watching the clown show.
> >
> Send me a postcard from inside their rotting prison and Let me if the "accommodations" are working out for you?



Since you are a new member of the forum, I'm sure you want to get off on a good foot and get along with the rest of us. For starters, please take a look at the Forum Rules, in particular Rule "1, which in part says *Please treat others here the way you wish to be treated, with respect, and without insult or personal attack.* For your convenience, here's the link to the entire list:http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/2397-forum-rules.html

Thanks for your cooperation.


----------



## coondawg

2ndtime said:


> Danger-Danger - I misspelled a word, Please Senoir, Just don't beat me !!!
> >
> Easy Man, Too much Mexican Machismo/Testosterone flowing here


Well said, 2ndtime. Some of us here get our "panties in a wad" over nothing on a regular basis.


----------



## Cristobal

2ndtime said:


> Easy Man, Too much Mexican Machismo/Testosterone flowing here


There is a lot flowing here but it ain't testosterone.


----------



## xolo

2ndtime said:


> Danger-Danger - I misspelled a word, Please Senoir, Just don't beat me !!!
> >
> Pardon me for trying to incorporate some Spanish into my thread, Bad Boy, Go to the corner and Do a Time-Out and think about why you are being punished...
> >
> You know on second thought I agree with you 100% about mordida and greasing the palms of the corrupt police force and to prove that we are blogs friends, blood brothers forever, ...here is the story of one of your compatriot Mexican citizen, my good friend, standing up for his rights in the following story; may God strike me dead if it's not true.
> >
> My Mexican friend was driving his car and I was sitting in the front passenger seat. He forgot to signal and the policeman pulled him over. When the policeman appeared at his driver's-side window the two Mexican citizens entered into a very heated conversation over how much mordida the policeman wanted and how much my friend was willing to give. They finally agreed upon a certain sum. My Mexican friend went to his glove compartment and pulled out unfortunately a large bill. He handed the large bill to the policeman and demanded change back, ....which he received…
> >
> And now back to our regular scheduled thread.
> >
> PS- since you got me on the spelling of one of your Mexican words, I feel it's only right for me to ask, 1) find the independent, dependent clauses and dangling participles in the sentences above. 2) Tell me if I should use the transient verb as opposed to an action verb, “spelling”. 3) let me know if the adverb in “very heated conversation” is modifying the adjective or the verb.
> >
> Easy Man, Too much Mexican Machismo/Testosterone flowing here


The Spanish speakers on this thread have been easy on you, but I know you're trying to make a point, which is interesting. I usually don't comment on grammar unless it is the thread topic.


----------



## coondawg

más chueco que la fayuca said:


> The Spanish speakers on this thread have been easy on you, but I know you're trying to make a point, which is interesting.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the easy on you, nor agree with it, but I agree it is interesting (for a change).
> 
> I usually don't comment on grammar unless it is the thread topic.


Shows that you have some "common sense", IMHO.


----------



## Isla Verde

As a former Spanish and English teacher and current translator/editor, I am very aware of the written language, whether it be Spanish or English. I do try to restrain myself when words are misspelled in posts, or I may come across as a dreaded "grammar Nazi", which for a nice Jewish girl like me would be a really unpleasant label.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Poor Poor Little Old Me....*

I am just an old man with a good christian heart. 
>
Just looking for some pleasant conversation with good folks and a little bit of info from you Expat Pioneers, who have blazed the trail ahead of me.
>
Cuando llegue (did I use the subjuctive of the infinitive llegar = to arrive correctly?) a GDL, les invito a todos a reunirse (reflexive) conmigo y vamos a disfrutar la musica y cantaramos canciónes de la tierra y del corazon de Mexico mientras tanto que nos vamos a conocer! 
>
Con muchas bebidas y baille, Que Les parece?
>
Espero les repuesta
> 
Ciao


----------



## coondawg

más chueco que la fayuca said:


> The Spanish speakers on this thread have been easy on you, but I know you're trying to make a point, which is interesting. I usually don't comment on grammar unless it is the thread topic.


On second thought, you are 100% correct, and I apologize for being short sighted.


----------



## Isla Verde

2ndtime said:


> I am just an old man with a good christian heart.
> >
> Just looking for some pleasant conversation with good folks and a little bit of info from you Expat Pioneers, who have blazed the trail ahead of me.
> >
> Cuando llegue (did I use the subjuctive of the infinitive llegar = to arrive correctly?) a GDL, les invito a todos a reunirse (reflexive) conmigo y vamos a disfrutar la musica y cantaramos canciónes de la tierra y del corazon de Mexico mientras tanto que nos vamos a conocer!
> >
> Con muchas bebidas y baille, Que Les parece?
> >
> Espero les repuesta
> >
> Ciao


Yes, you used the subjunctive correctly! However, except for an occasional word or short phrase, please write your posts in English. (See Forum Rule # 6.) Not everyone who participates here is proficient in Spanish and newcomers to the forum and to Mexico may not know any Spanish at all. ¡Gracias!


----------



## 2ndtime

*Well let me translate ...*



Isla Verde said:


> Yes, you used the subjunctive correctly! However, except for an occasional word or short phrase, please write your posts in English. (See Forum Rule # 6.) Not everyone who participates here is proficient in Spanish and newcomers to the forum and to Mexico may not know any Spanish at all. ¡Gracias!


>
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy sleeping dog....
>
JUST KIDDING...We do know howto laugh and have FUN??!!
>
TRANSLATION IS: (From Memory so forgive me as I believe you all will)
>
"When I arrive in GDL, I invite all of you to come join me and we are going enjoy music ...and we will sing the songs about "Mother Mexico", of her land and of her heart...as we all get to know one another...drinking and dancing [the night away]... Y vamos a mandar la cuenta a Dios...(and we will send the bill (tab) to God!!
>
Who's in??


----------



## GARYJ65

Mother Mexico???


----------



## chicois8

Come on Gary, he lived in Mexico 25 years ago....LOL


----------



## GARYJ65

chicois8 said:


> Come on Gary, he lived in Mexico 25 years ago....LOL


But there is not any mother Mexico!
What is that?


----------



## coondawg

Give it a rest, Gary, ok?


----------



## mattoleriver

2ndtime,
when you get to Guadalajara try to locate modeeper, you have a lot in common.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Do tell*



GARYJ65 said:


> But there is not any mother Mexico!
> What is that?


>
Hi Gary ,
>
Its your Best Friend, 'Tu Mejor Amigo', 2ndtime, writing you. 
(You don't have to tell me that these words are not capitalized but with "OUR" special friendship, I wanted the entire thread to know our bond.
>
Your Tag line is "Mexican Citizen"
>
I'm curious as to why you feel it necessary to let everyone know that?
>
Is it a position of 'Power' you feel you need to implicitly imply?
>
Is it a position of "Authority" you feel the need to establish?
>
Is it a position of "Knowledge" you feel the need to show?
>
Or is it just "You"?
>
Please do share, cause "WE" all want to know.


----------



## coondawg

Very interesting and informative thread.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Let Me Answer*



GARYJ65 said:


> But there is not any mother Mexico!
> What is that?


>
1. I forgot the Mexican machismo (NOT capitalized on purpose). Instead let me say "Bad-A*s hombre Mexico". (I hope that meets with stamp of approval.
>
2. Background: When I was living in Mexico for five years during the late 1980's ( I was there for the Mundial, so surely that makes me a half brother and I married a Mexican lady so maybe that gives me another half, but I still know that doesn't equal a whole Mexican Like yourself)
>
Fact: When I would walk the streets in downtown Guadalajara or for that matter anywhere in the Mexico and I would pass the women begging on the street with their handout for money, with their children huddled next to them, I would always stop and give them a few pesos and ask in Spanish, (mind you Gary) “where is your husband?” And I ALWAYS got the same universal answer (do you understand what I mean by universal, Gary?), ‘Se Fue” (He left Me”)
>
It's time for Mexico to acknowledge the strength and backbone of the family and culture are the women!!! The men are just there to screw it up. Yes, it should be Mother Mexico.
>
Please tell me it was alright to give some money to the poor or it that another thing you think is wrong like mordida??!!
>
Your Friend and Comrade in Arms, 2ndtime


----------



## 2ndtime

*If I Could Run For Mexico Politican Office...*

(Final Thought...Unless Gary Wants To Open The Pandora's Box)
>
(and Yes, Gary, I know I can't Hold Political Office In Mexico...BUT If It Were A Perfect World)....
>
I wants This to My Tag Line "Changing Mexico.. One BAD-A*S HOMBRE AT A TIME"

>
Or (Sorry I just couldn't Resist)
>
"Quit The Machismo-It Doesn't Look Good On You!"


----------



## TundraGreen

2ndtime said:


> >
> Hi Gary ,
> >
> Its your Best Friend, 'Tu Mejor Amigo', 2ndtime, writing you.
> (You don't have to tell me that these words are not capitalized but with "OUR" special friendship, I wanted the entire thread to know our bond.
> >
> Your Tag line is "Mexican Citizen"
> >
> I'm curious as to why you feel it necessary to let everyone know that?
> >
> Is it a position of 'Power' you feel you need to implicitly imply?
> >
> Is it a position of "Authority" you feel the need to establish?
> >
> Is it a position of "Knowledge" you feel the need to show?
> >
> Or is it just "You"?
> >
> Please do share, cause "WE" all want to know.


Those of us who have been around for awhile remember when Gary changed his signature. It grew out of a discussion where it was valuable to know his background.

Now, please desist from the personal comments. It is forbidden by the Forum Rules.


----------



## coondawg

Would it be valuable to know my background, too? I can add that if you think knowing would in some way help us here.


----------



## GARYJ65

2ndtime said:


> > Hi Gary , > Its your Best Friend, 'Tu Mejor Amigo', 2ndtime, writing you. (You don't have to tell me that these words are not capitalized but with "OUR" special friendship, I wanted the entire thread to know our bond. > Your Tag line is "Mexican Citizen" > I'm curious as to why you feel it necessary to let everyone know that? > Is it a position of 'Power' you feel you need to implicitly imply? > Is it a position of "Authority" you feel the need to establish? > Is it a position of "Knowledge" you feel the need to show? > Or is it just "You"? > Please do share, cause "WE" all want to know.


 I had to state my Mexican citizenship due to many comments, most of them criticizing or aggressive. You made a similar comment previously, something about my ****** nose.... Someone told me I should state my nationality, and I thought it would be a good idea, for posters to know that my opinion was from a Mexican. 
I don't need to be a Mexican to feel knowledgable, or to be an authoritarian or powerful person; that is a given thing


----------



## GARYJ65

2ndtime said:


> (Final Thought...Unless Gary Wants To Open The Pandora's Box) > (and Yes, Gary, I know I can't Hold Political Office In Mexico...BUT If It Were A Perfect World).... > I wants This to My Tag Line "Changing Mexico.. One BAD-A*S HOMBRE AT A TIME" > Or (Sorry I just couldn't Resist) > "Quit The Machismo-It Doesn't Look Good On You!"


You could run for office in your own Country, which also is in great need for attention, why don't you?


----------



## 2ndtime

*Didn't know*



TundraGreen said:


> Those of us who have been around for awhile remember when Gary changed his signature. It grew out of a discussion where it was valuable to know his background.
> 
> Now, please desist from the personal comments. It is forbidden by the Forum Rules.


>
My Deepest Apologies to the ENTIRE Thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Why did you leave me in the dark and keep it a secret? I'm glad SOMEONE told ME and now I know. 
>
(Tough Crowd)
>
PS-I love this site and am VERY THANKFUL for the useful information receive!!!! 
>
I HOPE and PRAY I can continue to "chat" with ALL participants !!!!!!
>
However, I am fickle (and vain) and would like to know if ANYONE direct me to an additional Web Site that has a better understanding of the words, 'Dry Humor" and may not be Soooo PC (Politically Correct).....
>
Because I AM a child of the mid and late sixties (16-20 y.o.) ( and proud of it) when I learned to VOICE my opinion and stand up for things I felt were wrong a.k.a. the Vietnam War, (Today its called Politically INCORRECT) where tens of thousands of young AMERICANS (Some of them my friends) were being shot at and killed for NOT the right reason. (MY Opinion). 
>
BTW- I was part of the first draft in 1972 (?). My birth-date number was 180 and they called up to 99 for active duty that year. 
>
Anyone?


----------



## coondawg

Gary, you bit !  Point made.


----------



## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> You could run for office in your own Country, which also is in great need for attention, why don't you?


Gary, you are still as dependable as Christmas.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Just Checking...*



coondawg said:


> Gary, you bit !  Point made.


Gary


----------



## TundraGreen

2ndtime said:


> >
> …BTW- I was part of the first draft in 1972 (?). My birth-date number was 180 and they called up to 99 for active duty that year.
> 
> Anyone?


I don't know what you mean by "first draft". I was drafted four years before that and spent 11 months and 28 days in Vietnam. The lottery system that you apparently experienced was just the final phase before they abolished the draft completely in 1973. The year I was drafted, there were no lotteries. They just drafted everyone without a deferment, at least that was what my draft board was doing.

There were some earlier drafts in the US, during the Civil War and World War I. The one that bit me, started during World War II.


----------



## 2ndtime

*Stand corrected*



tundragreen said:


> i don't know what you mean by "first draft". I was drafted four years before that and spent 11 months and 28 days in vietnam. The lottery system that you apparently experienced was just the final phase before they abolished the draft completely in 1973. The year i was drafted, there were no lotteries. They just drafted everyone without a deferment, at least that was what my draft board was doing.
> 
> There were some earlier drafts in the us, during the civil war and world war i. The one that bit me, started during world war ii.


>
stand corrected, thank you


----------



## BajaRick16

*I did it!*

As a very new member I would like to express my appreciation to the Moderators and participants in this Forum for all that I have learned. It's 1:20 am and I just finished reading all 54 pages and 537 comments of this thread. Wow....talk about an education. I know more about installing two electric meters than I ever wanted to know. ;-)

I think this should be required reading for all newcomers. 

Thanks!!


----------



## 2ndtime

*Lost entries*



BajaRick16 said:


> As a very new member I would like to express my appreciation to the Moderators and participants in this Forum for all that I have learned. It's 1:20 am and I just finished reading all 54 pages and 537 comments of this thread. Wow....talk about an education. I know more about installing two electric meters than I ever wanted to know. ;-)
> 
> I think this should be required reading for all newcomers.
> 
> Thanks!!


It would have been even more interesting if all of the comments were left in. But alas, 'Political Correctness' prevailed, comments removed (under protest?) and ...
>
Unfortunately, certain People (in this thread?, Say it ain't so Joe!) don't know what its like to get a 'Boo-Boo' on your elbow or scrape your knee; and realize its NOT the END OF THE WORLD and continue on.
>
But Justice is king, THE THREAD was Saved again, Purity restored, Woman's virtue Rescued from harms way, Adults with Childish personalities pampered and their diapers changed, and Freedom, Democracy and International Spirit of Brotherhood (That not the Local 407 of Newark, NJ)... Ney, of the ENTIRE spirit of mankind itself has been brought back from EVIL. 
>
And I for one!!!!, am thankful for ALL those who in their quiet every day world here protect us from (each other) and keep the world and this thread SAVE for future generations to come !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2ndtime

*Newly Discovered Literature Sheds New Light*



TundraGreen said:


> Those of us who have been around for awhile remember when **** changed his signature. It grew out of a discussion where it was valuable to know his background./QUOTE]
> 
> I couldn't Sleep so Instead...
> >
> A ONE ACT PLAY...Not required class reading material to pass the final exam, Read ONLY if interested and at YOUR OWN RISK..Um, sounds wicked and sinful yet I feel I must continue...
> >
> Date Line: Always Relevant
> Entitled: 'Conversation At THE THREAD Water Cooler' (It’s a cyber world)
> Location: Undisclosed Place To Protect the People Involved who might otherwise be considered....PC...Politically IN-correct (Scary Organ Music draws us in closer)
> >
> Author: From notes taken by a neighbor’s Cat, who overheard it from the Owl talking
> to the Dog
> Disclaimer: The opinions express here May (or May Not) represent the view of anyone
> caught reading this
> >
> Newbie: Did you get the memo sent around by the "Chief"?
> Old Timer: (Said with lack of interest) Yea, I read it
> Newbie: (concerned and excited) So what's your take on it? I'm the company
> newbie and well, I'm looking to earn a key like you have to the executive
> washroom!
> Old Timer: (light-heartedly) Try'en to brown nose the Boss already, eh kid?
> Newbie: Tell me Old Timer, was it your insightful, thought provoking comments that got
> you respect?
> Old Timer: Heck No (offensive language revised for the sake of woman and children)
> Newbie: Ya mean I gotta JUST be here a long time? Yap Diggity Dog!!
> Old Timer: Didn’t say THAT either…
> Newbie: Well then, What??!!
> Old Timer: Well, I thank old Yale, and I thank the Lord… and I also thank My Father who
> is Chairman Of The Board


----------



## 2ndtime

*With the Risk of Being Self-Indulgent..(Go Right Ahead)*



coondawg said:


> Would it be valuable to know my background, too? I can add that if you think knowing would in some way help us here.


...and because it WILL be valuable to know MY background, too (as in ME, ME, ME) I will add it cause I KNOW you think knowing would in some way help us here...
>
I have lived in residential neighborhoods on three continents apart from North America; Asia, Europe and South America - collectively for more than ten years and starting from the age of 19, I have traveled to more than twenty countries on five continents. 
>
Besides English, I am conversant in Spanish and Italian.
>
I’ve lived in Boston, Haight-Ashbury, SF, Greenwich Village, NY City, Atlanta, New Orleans (before Katrina) and the greater Los Angeles area long enough in each city to know where the public library was and received my library card; 
>
for most of my life, I have not owned a television. 
>
I have started five businesses on my own and another three with associates on three continents; all on little money, a wish and prayer and tons of hard work. Some crashed and burned and other afforded me a nice life style. 
>
I characterize myself as being a musician having played classical guitar for over 20 years and a Citizen of The World. 
>
I believe being ‘Politically Correct’ is not only boring; it’s a disservice to the world at large. 
>
‘Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less traveled by. . . And that has made all the difference.’ (Robert Frost)
>
I prefer to make friends of the same ilk.
>
Cordially,
2ndtime


----------



## diablita

2ndtime said:


> ...and because it WILL be valuable to know MY background, too (as in ME, ME, ME) I will add it cause I KNOW you think knowing would in some way help us here...
> >
> I have lived in residential neighborhoods on three continents apart from North America; Asia, Europe and South America - collectively for more than ten years and starting from the age of 19, I have traveled to more than twenty countries on five continents.
> >
> Besides English, I am conversant in Spanish and Italian.
> >
> I’ve lived in Boston, Haight-Ashbury, SF, Greenwich Village, NY City, Atlanta, New Orleans (before Katrina) and the greater Los Angeles area long enough in each city to know where the public library was and received my library card;
> >
> for most of my life, I have not owned a television.
> >
> I have started five businesses on my own and another three with associates on three continents; all on little money, a wish and prayer and tons of hard work. Some crashed and burned and other afforded me a nice life style.
> >
> I characterize myself as being a musician having played classical guitar for over 20 years and a Citizen of The World.
> >
> I believe being ‘Politically Correct’ is not only boring; it’s a disservice to the world at large.
> >
> ‘Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less traveled by. . . And that has made all the difference.’ (Robert Frost)
> >
> I prefer to make friends of the same ilk.
> >
> Cordially,
> 2ndtime


Well... aren't you special. I thought Hound Dog's posts were wordy but you have taken the Bloviator of the Forum title away from him.


----------



## 2ndtime

Dear Diablita,
>
I am new here. I sent you a private msg yet I don't seem to collect them in my sent box.
>
Can you confirm for me privately or in thread, you received my private msg.
>
Thanking you in advance
>
2ndtime


----------



## BajaRick16

*The Intro Thread*



2ndtime said:


> ...and because it WILL be valuable to know MY background, too (as in ME, ME, ME) I will add it cause I KNOW you think knowing would in some way help us here...
> >
> I have lived in residential neighborhoods on three continents apart from North America; Asia, Europe and South America - collectively for more than ten years and starting from the age of 19, I have traveled to more than twenty countries on five continents.
> >
> Besides English, I am conversant in Spanish and Italian.
> >
> I’ve lived in Boston, Haight-Ashbury, SF, Greenwich Village, NY City, Atlanta, New Orleans (before Katrina) and the greater Los Angeles area long enough in each city to know where the public library was and received my library card;
> >
> for most of my life, I have not owned a television.
> >
> I have started five businesses on my own and another three with associates on three continents; all on little money, a wish and prayer and tons of hard work. Some crashed and burned and other afforded me a nice life style.
> >
> I characterize myself as being a musician having played classical guitar for over 20 years and a Citizen of The World.
> >
> I believe being ‘Politically Correct’ is not only boring; it’s a disservice to the world at large.
> >
> ‘Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less traveled by. . . And that has made all the difference.’ (Robert Frost)
> >
> I prefer to make friends of the same ilk.
> >
> Cordially,
> 2ndtime


On page 1 of the Forum is a thread where you introduce yourself and can then converse accordingly.


----------



## coondawg

Thanks, Rick. You learn quickly !


----------



## lagoloo

Personally, I prefer to let others come to their conclusions about me from my posts, rather than trying to tell all about my history. But that's just me. (crooked grin)


----------



## BajaRick16

lagoloo said:


> Personally, I prefer to let others come to their conclusions about me from my posts, rather than trying to tell all about my history. But that's just me. (crooked grin)


Not a problem. My only point was that if someone did choose to expound all about their personal background, the Forum has a place to do that so it doesn't interrupt the existing thread.


----------



## coondawg

Rick, you sound like Moderator quality to me.


----------



## BajaRick16

coondawg said:


> Rick, you sound like Moderator quality to me.


Thanks for the kind words coondawg. As the old saying goes, "If nominated I will not run...if elected I will not serve."  We're in great hands. Looks like a whole lotta work.


----------



## 2ndtime

*So Sorry*



BajaRick16 said:


> On page 1 of the Forum is a thread where you introduce yourself and can then converse accordingly.


Mistake Acknowledged and apology offered to all


----------



## roadapple

It's must be horrible to "be stuck" with a Mexican woman.

I am blessed to have my Mexican woman.


----------



## Timroy1027

25000 is a lot. But your right. The cost of living is going up in Mexico. I pay 14000 a month for my apartment and all services and would find it difficult to spend another 11000. but i don't drink or smoke and i ride a scooter. But i live in a very nice 2 bedroom air consitioned place 3 blocks from the beach in downtown Playa del Carmen. I love tortillas and beans and latin culture so it's a great place for me but i can see why others might want to just go it at home.


----------



## Chuy1951

Rules and laws are what they are by the interpretation of the person you are dealing with locally. That's how it works.
Example: to get a driver's license you need a valid picture ID (usually a passport or USA drivers license will suffice), and proof of residence in that area. In almost all areas you can take a local resident with you, he takes his gas bill with his name and address on it, states that you rent a room from him and it is accepted as proof of residence. They take your money, you fill out the form, take your picture, wait a little while and they hand you your license right there and then. Period. No written test, no driving test, nada. Now if you state that you have no proof of residency you will be asked to go to another window where he or someone else will provide one for a "small" fee.
If they see you coming unassisted by a friendly local they get these dollar (not peso) signs in their eyes, make you go thru a lot of "red tape" and money to get the same result.
The locals in your area can assist you ALOT to get you thru "red tape" in what ever you need if they trust you, and you them. They can even save you lots of time and money.
I've learned first hand by living near the border getting a temporary resident visa at the Mexican consulate on the US side of the border would cost me 40 dollars. Instead I walk across the border, take a local friend of mine from there with me, pay 50 pesos for a taxi to the local consulate there and get it for free. Pay another 50 pesos for the return trip. 
My local friend and I then enjoy a delicious lunch with the money I saved. And had change left over for a few more lunches.Oh by the way, I did not even need my friend's assistance. I was capable of doing it all on my own. 
Being very fluent in Spanish is a huge help. If this is a handicap for you I recommend you build trustful relationships with some of the locals. You'd be surprised at how helpful they are if you let them. How do you know who to trust? Follow your heart.


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## TundraGreen

Chuy1951 said:


> …
> If they see you coming unassisted by a friendly local they get these dollar (not peso) signs in their eyes, make you go thru a lot of "red tape" and money to get the same result.
> …


Not my experience. I have found every government agency I have had to deal with (INM, IMSS, SRE, SAT, DIF, CONAFOR, SEMARNAT, CONACYT, CIATECJ, SIAPA) law abiding and generally friendly and helpful. Maybe it is different near the border.


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## Chuy1951

Tundra, the key to what I've stated in the first sentence of my previous writing. "...determined by who you are dealing with locally." So yes it is how it is in the area where you are located. You are absolutely correct in what you state. Every area is not the same and every border town does things differently from the other border towns.


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## circle110

I also sense a very large difference between how agencies operate in border towns and here in central Mexico. My experience here in the interior has been more like TundraGreen's, whereas at the border I have had to work harder to get them to meet me in the middle.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> I also sense a very large difference between how agencies operate in border towns and here in central Mexico. My experience here in the interior has been more like TundraGreen's, whereas at the border I have had to work harder to get them to meet me in the middle.


Interesting obsevation. I know nothing about the border area, since I always fly in to Mexico from the States.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Interesting obsevation. I know nothing about the border area, since I always fly in to Mexico from the States.


I used to walk across the border a few times a year, crossing either at Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez. Once I tried stopping at INM to check out of the country like you do at an airport. They were polite and friendly, but had no idea why I was bothering and had no interest in seeing my visa or passport.


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## mattoleriver

Chuy1951 said:


> ...I've learned first hand by living near the border getting a temporary resident visa at the Mexican consulate on the US side of the border would cost me 40 dollars. Instead I walk across the border, take a local friend of mine from there with me, pay 50 pesos for a taxi to the local consulate there and get it for free. Pay another 50 pesos for the return trip.


I'm confused, I thought that the TR process had to be initiated outside of Mexico. Also, why would Mexico have consulates within its own borders?


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## AlanMexicali

mattoleriver said:


> I'm confused, I thought that the TR process had to be initiated outside of Mexico. Also, why would Mexico have consulates within its own borders?


Of course it does and there are no Mx. Consulates in Mexico and Chuey is spelt with an "e".


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## Chuy1951

*Not where my parents came from*



AlanMexicali said:


> Of course it does and there are no Mx. Consulates in Mexico and Chuey is spelt with an "e".


"Chuy" where my parents came from is spelled as seen here. Depends on where you are from, no different than Francis and Frances, Aaron and Aron, etc...entiendes o no mas te estas haciendo...


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## Chuy1951

*Mispelled?*



AlanMexicali said:


> Of course it does and there are no Mx. Consulates in Mexico and Chuey is spelt with an "e".


Are you sure you know how to spell Chuy? Because spelled is not "spelt" either it is "SPELLED". Mal educado.


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## Chuy1951

*Meant Aduana Not Consulate*



mattoleriver said:


> I'm confused, I thought that the TR process had to be initiated outside of Mexico. Also, why would Mexico have consulates within its own borders?


On the Mexico side I meant the aduana not the consulate.


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## Chuy1951

*Alan, Allen, Elen, Ellen,*



AlanMexicali said:


> Of course it does and there are no Mx. Consulates in Mexico and Chuey is spelt with an "e".


Are you sure Alan is spelled right, Allen, Ellen, or is that "spelt" wrong?


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## Isla Verde

Chuy1951 said:


> Are you sure you know how to spell Chuy? Because spelled is not "spelt" either it is "SPELLED". Mal educado.


I've always seen "Chuy" spelled "Chuy", but that's just my experience in Mexico. By the way, "spelt" is correct, but it is more commonly used in the UK than in the US.

"Mal educado" means you have bad manners, not that you have received a bad education. Another example of a false cognate.


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## Isla Verde

Chuy1951 said:


> "Chuy" where my parents came from is spelled as seen here. Depends on where you are from, no different than Francis and Frances, Aaron and Aron, etc...entiendes o no mas te estas haciendo...


My Spanish is good, but I can't understand what the phrase written in Spanish means.

Francis and Frances are not variations of the same name: Francis is masculine and Frances is feminine.


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> I've always seen "Chuy" spelled "Chuy", but that's just my experience in Mexico. By the way, "spelt" is correct, but it is more commonly used in the UK than in the US.
> 
> "Mal educado" means you have bad manners, not that you have received a bad education. Another example of a false cognate.


Maybe Chuy meant "mal educado" as in bad manners in telling him he did not spell his name correctly...  I agree, Chuy is the way I've always seen it spelled at least in Mexico (I think there are some "Chueys" in the U.S., but really that "e" would change the pronounciation in Spanish, making it rhyme with "guey".) For those who might not be aware, Chuy is a common nickname for someone named Jesus, as is "Chus".

As an aside, I reviewed the last few pages of this older thread - what is it about this thread that seems to draw out the snarkiness in posters?? Sheesh!! Or should I say "Chus"!


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## chicois8

WOW, all these years I thought Chuey was a nickname for a guy that chewed with his mouth open,LOL.


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## AnneLM

I thought it was that hairy guy from Star Wars!:bounce:


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## circle110

AnneLM said:


> I thought it was that hairy guy from Star Wars!:bounce:


 That is spelled Chewie. Same sound, ****** spelling!

I have always seen Chuy spelled without the "e"; I know several who go by that (both men and women) and none use the "e" because that would make the pronunciation "chew-ay" (ay as in play).


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## ElPocho

Isla Verde said:


> I live well in Mexico City on around $12,000 MN a month. I have a very small apartment in a nice (not luxurious) safe centrally-located colonia. I don't have a car and am happy to use public transportation and my feet to get around the city. I don't cook all that much and eat out mostly at little restaurants in my neighborhood. My budget also includes bi-annual premiums for a private health insurance plan.


What's your health insurance plan and how much does it cost?


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## ElPocho

Isla Verde said:


> I've always seen "Chuy" spelled "Chuy", but that's just my experience in Mexico. By the way, "spelt" is correct, but it is more commonly used in the UK than in the US.
> 
> "Mal educado" means you have bad manners, not that you have received a bad education. Another example of a false cognate.


IMHO Chuey is a play on words. O at least it may of been interpreted as one.

Chuy - is short for Jesus. 

In Mexico if I had a friend call Chuy, and wanted to call him a buey, I'd call him Chuey... Hence the mal-educado comment -- At least IMHO. I have be accused of thinking too much....

Also calling a person pin... guey, sounds like Che guey. Again in my humble opinion and hoping not to offend anyone. Che Guey is also a term of endearment amongst friends to further confuse the matter.


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## Isla Verde

ElPocho said:


> What's your health insurance plan and how much does it cost?


I made that post several years ago. The policy I had at that time came to around $30,000 (that's pesos, of course) a year, with the premiums rising annually. I don't have that policy anymore and have no idea how much it would cost me at my now advanced age of 72.


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## ElPocho

Isla Verde said:


> I made that post several years ago. The policy I had at that time came to around $30,000 (that's pesos, of course) a year, with the premiums rising every year. I don't have that policy anymore and have no idea how much it would cost me at my now advanced age of 72.


Thanks, after I asked the question, I realized that this was a very old thread.


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## robbiethinking

GringoCArlos said:


> Folks, some of you are trying to play in a MX ballpark but want to play by US rules. Part of being the visitor is getting to know the local rules of the game. It's not cheating, it's not "corruption", it's by the local rules. The "rules" here in MX are not always written down in a nice neat little book. (and NO, I'm not referring to CFE)
> 
> edgee, you're looking in the wrong places for a rental. Some folks want caviar dreams and champagne wishes, others want a simple life. If you're looking to escape to a simpler, bachelor life, and as you say "hate living paycheck to paycheck", then why are you looking at high-priced housing? For you, electricity shouldn't be a big concern either, it will most likely run less than $20 a month if you use your head. Get a fan, and skip the A/C or a pool, and you'll be fine. Chapala isn't Vegas. If you don't want to clean your own home, a rent-a-maid will probably cost less than US$25 a day to do it for you.
> 
> Here's some rentals in the area I found in 5 minutes online, with photos:
> 
> Here is one furnished rental in Ajijic for MX$3500/mo plus expenses (don't worry, they have a description in English too):
> 
> • casa en Ajijic Jalisco a 1 cuadra del lago • - centro ajijic • Chapala •
> 
> Here's an unfurnished house in Chapala for MX$2600 /month:
> • RENTO CASA MUY BIEN UBICADA EN CHAPALA JALISCO • • Chapala •
> 
> Another 1 bdrm furnished place for MX$3500/mo between Chapala & Ajijic:
> VIVE DE DESCANSO, Departamento en Chapala, muy comodo !!! en Chapala - Casas y Departamentos en Renta en Chapala - Vivastreet
> 
> Here's another furnished house in a complex with a pool in Chapala for MX$6500/month:
> Casa amueblada chapala jalisco - Trovit Casas
> 
> If you're coming to MX on a one-way ticket, stay somewhere (like the posada you mentioned) for a week, find a rental that's good for you, get a 6 month lease and move in. If you find that it isn't what you had in mind, or have a horrible landlord then you have 6 months to find another place to live. You would also have 6 months to get on an autobus and take trips to San Miguel de Allende or other places for about US$30 to investigate. If your Spanish isn't great, find someone locally to help you. Good luck.


Most interesting - all about the 2 electricity meters!

But the links here are obviously out of date.

Would anyone be kind enough to post a current couple of links for me that relate to the Veracruz, Mex City and also the Barra and Vallarta areas?

Thanks in advance!


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## Zorro2017

https://www.mercadolibre.com.mx/


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## robbiethinking

zhenders said:


> Don't misunderstand -- truly, I understand that for most expats, it's neither comfortable nor ideal to live on that little -- but with the understanding that at the beginning of this thread in particular there was discussion with regards to survival, I think it's important to address... Well, survival!
> 
> Now, it's certainly true to say that the budget I described is minimalist; I am fortunate to need no prescription medication at this time, and I have no children. Certainly, $6000/m doesn't even BEGIN to cut it for families -- relative to everything else, private schools here are incredibly expensive, and are practically the only real option!
> 
> Certainly, shared-quarters living is not for everyone; I miss very much having my own residence -- it's been quite an adjustment, and I look forward in the future to a private home where I can actually comfortably cook three meals a day! -- but my post was not by any measure trying to say this budget is for everyone -- merely, it is what is possible -- what is survivable!
> 
> I probably opened up a rather impossible can of worms talking about class in Mexico -- the thing is, the difference between the poor and the wealthy is so extreme and the middle class so blurry and nearly non-existent that it's almost impossible to call one lifestyle "this" or "that"; I Imagine it's a matter of perspective.
> 
> For one thing, in El DF and Puebla both, it possible for the most part to live within a particular class zone and barely ever interact with other neighborhoods; the divisions of wealth in terms of neighborhoods are often even more stark here than in large cities in the states. For example, the neighborhood I live in is very much down-town Puebla -- which is to say, a great majority of the people I interact with sustain themselves on perhaps 1/2 of what I do. The poverty is ever-present and very real. With that said, while I could never call my lifestyle "middle-class" by US standards (the storage unit holding all of my books and bookshelves in the states is approximately the size of my room), in terms of Mexican standards of living, I have a relatively comfortable and a bit better-than-typical working person's lifestyle.
> 
> I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here -- to each their own, certainly! -- but for the adventurous single person who perhaps enjoys spending the majority of their time out in the city and sees their house as a small, quiet retreat in which to spend mostly sleeping hours and meals, my budget is quite doable. A final note: house mates in Mexicp are -- in general -- far more pleasant than American house mates! Because having house mates isn't just something you do when you go to college (as it usually is in the states), people are quite a bit more pleasant, decent and respectful; it's s wonderful cultural difference that I think is important to consider, because it can mean 2-3k in savings monthly!
> 
> /enormous post


sorry if I've preempted any comments/replies that follow this reply - I'm wading my way through this, page by page, and this is as far as I've got to date.

One thing I've noticed right away is that there is not only a cultural slant to many of the responses here, but also many are coming from very widely different financial bases. To expand . . . 

I'm a cheerful 67 now and came to Thailand, more or less broke, 20-plus years ago because it was cheap and sunny - although I am about to make a major lifestyle change; hence my presence on this forum.

I'm still more or less broke - though this is a relative term. A couple of years back (for example) I bought a used car. In Thailand the car prices are ridiculously high: a good used Toyota pick-up that's 15 years old will set you back around $5,000 US, for instance. It took me a year to save for this - cash - foreigners can't get credit here.

I've lived in various accomodations, all of them owned by local Thais, none of them advertised on the internet, all of them non-gated, non-condo, just nice little semi-modern houses. away from the tourist or development projects. I speak Thai and can negotiate with the owners. I also spend time with Thai people (not those who are here to cash-in on the tourists - the ordinary farmers and shopkeepers, plus a few middle-managers I've come to know).

And I find that I'm constantly at odds with westerners who come here to live and retire. These are people (usually at or on the edge of retirement age) who have cashed-in their businesses and sold their (paid-for) homes and come here with money. They lived in walled villas or gated developments and think nothing of spending $15,000 or $16,000 on a used car - which for them is " . . . taking things carefully - we don't want to spend too much".

I work as a part-time contributor and editor of a local magazine, which brings in maybe $900 a month (but also costs me $200 a month in tax, insurance and visa fees). Happily I now have a partial UK pension that pulls in another $1,000.

My rent for a 1-bed modern house in an isolated part of the island (Koh Samui) in a quarter acre of ground and with no immediate neighbours is $300 a month, plus another $75 for electricity (with aircon), gas, water and fiber internet.

I drink, smoke and eat out 60% of the time, some of this in top restaurants. I now live by myself with no dependents. I run a car and 2 motorbikes. And out of my total monthly income ($1,700 net) I _generally _save about $750 - $850 a month.

The incoming/resident westerners I meet don't believe me when the conversation gets around to costs. They're looking for a ("nice little") house to rent for $1,200 a month and consider anything that 's at $800 or so to be too down-market (compared to my house at $300!).

And they have a completely skewed perception of the Thai people - very much a view from an ivory tower. They have no idea, for instance, that the usual way for Thais between the ages of 20 and 30 to live is to rent a tiny unfurnished brick or wood 2-room house (for about $20 a month) and live there with 4/5 friends sharing, 2 to a room, sleeping on the floor.

The only Thai people that this breed of westerners get to meet are the educated ones who speak English, are usually married to a westerner, and are in the hospitality or real estate business. When I mentioned that my Thai neighbours (before) just dismantled their wood-and-tin-roof-house and moved it 2 miles away - in a day - again, I wasn't believed.

When I first came here, I too lived in one of those tiny Thai brick rooms for $100 a month, with no furniture and sleeping on the floor. I made ends meet by selling photographs to the transsexuals in the cabaret shows, dressed up in their elaborate costumes - they then passed them on to their boyfriend of the week . . . and I fixed the computers that were shared by the bargirls and helped them write love letters in English to their (passing) boyfriends in English for a dollar a time.

And now I'm a part-time writer and editor for two tourists magazines. But I still live on about $800 a month, and wouldn't _want _a bigger house, although I could afford it.

Of course I completely understand that this is a universal phenomenon - different people having different ideas about how much it costs to live, and have different needs. It'll happen everywhere. But, even so, for me it ranges from interesting and informative, to making me smile outright when I see the range of "basic costs to live" stated here. And particularly when I see (as I have done a couple of times) that people's spending is higher because they are bored, and so travel around a lot. (I don't think I've ever been bored in my life!)

There's just one of me, I'm uprooting to Mexico because of the immigration policy, the weather, the easy-going people, the range of lifestyles and the cost to live there - all of which have equal importance. I'll be coming with a budget to live on of $1,000 a month and a fall-back of about $15,000 in the bank. I hope to remain in Mexico a long time, and can't think why I didn't do this 10 years ago.

I need to be near the sea - at least within a 20-minute bus (or scooter) ride. I'm looking at areas around Veracruz, Barra and Vallarta. And all and every scrap of info on living in Mexico is being absorbed avidly!

Thanks for all your contributions - keep on posting!


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## robbiethinking

Zorro2017 said:


> https://www.mercadolibre.com.mx/


mmm . . . thanks . . . but maybe links to the specific nature of the subject in the post I was quoting?


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## UrbanMan

robbiethinking said:


> And I find that I'm constantly at odds with westerners who come here to live and retire.
> 
> come here with money. They lived in walled villas or gated developments and think nothing of spending $15,000 or $16,000 on a used car - which for them is " . . . taking things carefully - we don't want to spend too much".
> 
> The incoming/resident westerners I meet don't believe me when the conversation gets around to costs. They're looking for a ("nice little") house to rent for $1,200 a month and consider anything that 's at $800 or so to be too down-market (compared to my house at $300!).
> 
> And they have a completely skewed perception of the Thai people.
> 
> !


You could substitute Mexico into the above. It would apply completely.

There is an awareness of money here. The people who have very little, some are inclined to be a bit jealous of those who have more (maybe you robbie?). Same as anywhere.


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## Zorro2017

robbiethinking said:


> mmm . . . thanks . . . but maybe links to the specific nature of the subject in the post I was quoting?


Unless I am mistaken earlier you were asking about the price of rent, a car, etc in specific areas.



robbiethinking said:


> Most interesting - all about the 2 electricity meters!
> 
> But the links here are obviously out of date.
> 
> Would anyone be kind enough to post a current couple of links for me that relate to the Veracruz, Mex City and also the Barra and Vallarta areas?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Marcado Libre is a good source to find about anything in Mexico particularly housing in certain areas.


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## robbiethinking

UrbanMan said:


> "_The incoming/resident westerners I meet don't believe me when the conversation gets around to costs. They're looking for a ("nice little") house to rent for $1,200 a month and consider anything that 's at $800 or so to be too down-market (compared to my house at $300!).
> 
> And they have a completely skewed perception of the Thai people."_
> 
> You could substitute Mexico into the above. It would apply completely.
> 
> There is an awareness of money here. The people who have very little, some are inclined to be a bit jealous of those who have more (maybe you robbie?). Same as anywhere.


No - I've never found myself jealous - that's an essentially emotional reaction. Though I'll admit there was a time, when I was a lot younger that, now and then, I found myself a little envious! That time has long since passed. 

I was being disdainful. Because there are some people who simply aren't aware they are skimming the surface, and genuinely believe themselves to be immersed in the culture of a place.

When my daughter was old enough to travel, the three of us set off for 2 months in Egypt with backpacks. We stayed in places that ranged from hovels to 4-star,. We made friends with a boat driver who took us down the Nile to meet his family (a 3 day journey, sleeping on the little sailing boat, pulling in to make a campfire at night and stopping to eat in little riverside villages on the way.) 

The three of us got drunk one night (well, not our 8 year-old daughter!) with a group of camel-drivers who had taken us around the pyramids, and then we got to know a very respectable doctor and stayed with him and his family - in the most decrepit and run-down slum apartment (by western standards) in the Cairo suburbs . . . we were told this sort of accommodation was normal in Egypt for even professional people.

Then we found ourselves sidetracked over to The Red Sea, (hotels, hotels) and eventually ended up in Alexandria, where the guest-house owner took a liking to us and kept inviting us to dinner in his (typically?) Muslim household, before offering us the use of his beach house further down the coast, at the edge of the old and tumble-down colonial area.

A colleague of mine was envious of this, and thus took herself off to Egypt the following year. She came back as white as a lily, having spent 2 weeks only-ever stepping from air-conditioned hotels into air-conditioned tour coaches, or watching the shores of Egypt go past as she steamed on a cruise down the Nile. And yet the tales she had to tell on her return, of the things she'd done and the sights she'd seen!

My point being - I've never been wealthy. But even if I had, I would still find myself in the backstreets and local markets and taverns, talking to everyone, anywhere, and absorbed in local culture and the community - not merely looking out at the the surface of things from the cocoon of a penthouse apartment or luxury hotel. It's just not the way I am, and it saddens me that so many others I have come across believe their remote experiences to be in some way profound . . . or even definitive!


----------



## lagoloo

On the other hand (and there's always an other hand), I don't see the inherent value of seeking out the lowest material living level unless that's all you can afford. I've been poor and was delighted to become more prosperous and able to afford comfortable living arrangements when traveling. My interest was primarily in seeing the art and architecture for which a country is known. There are several types and levels of "culture" in every country and different ways of becoming familiar with it. 

There's Snobbery and the more subtle negative, Reverse Snobbery. After moving to Mexico, I've seen all too many examples of both. The former seems to think that their money makes them "better than". Sometimes, it's downright laughable. The latter is often practiced by those who think the only valid way to live in a foreign country is to avoid places with a large number of one's former fellow countrymen. This is contrary to the custom of U.S. immigrants who seek out communities where the language and food of their mother countries eases their path to becoming assimilated. 

Somehow, I can't feel sadness for those who are doing their traveling on a first class ticket. No, they don't get the same experience that others would consider "definitive", but they are getting a look around which may enrich their lives. I do feel sad for people everywhere who are too poor to travel and don't have the pleasure of enjoying everything life has to offer.


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## UrbanMan

lagoloo said:


> On the other hand (and there's always an other hand)
> 
> There's Snobbery and the more subtle negative, Reverse Snobbery.


A lot of it is the tone of the speaker. If there is a large amount of Charlie Sheen Winning tone - then you've got a snob.


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## lagoloo

After dealing with both types, it's hard to decide which is more obnoxious. Maxi gag to them all.


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## citlali

Travelling is a very subjective way to spend time, people travel for many differnt reasons and look for differnt things.. I know that I went to Thailand to eat back in the late 70´s so went to all kinds of retaurants in various part of the country.. I was templed out within a week and as I do not take pictures when I travel there was no much point for me to see every temple the books recommended.. I loved the food and learned how to cook some of the cuisine there and to this day I cook Thai food, the hoter the better, my brother on the other had came back with tons of pictures of eveery place he went to and told me Thai food was not hot. .. Obviously we looked at differnt things.. We both enjoyed the experience but obviously we travelled on two differnt level..

Of course if you speak the language and know the culture it changes a lot of things but unless you live in a place or know the language to start with , it is a little difficult to see many countries and know the culture and language wherever you go so we all get slanted views ot the countries we visit, including the people who know the culture and speak the language..

As a young person I would go to place without much money and travel on the cheap but I got over it and I like my comfort now I do not think I appreciate the places I see now less than the places I visited before, it is just a different experience. To each his or her own.I do not feel sadness for anyone who can travel first class or even better private jets... Actually I travelled by private jet and frankly I think it is the only way to travel but unfortunately now I have to fly the cheap flight and feel like a sardine for interminable hours and I feel envy for the first class not sadness.. but you have got what you have got..


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## ojosazules11

lagoloo said:


> ...
> 
> I do feel sad for people everywhere who are too poor to travel and don't have the pleasure of enjoying everything life has to offer.


I agree. I have seen much more of Mexico and Guatemala than many Mexicans and Guatemala have seen of their own country. 

For some this is by choice, but many (most) simply do not have the resources or time to travel (since time travelling means time not earning income to help the family - even if the daily wage isn't a lot of money by our standards, it helps buy tortillas and beans!)

One of my nieces (in her late 20's) who has lived in Tepoztlan her entire life has no desire to travel. She doesn't even like going to nearby Cuernavaca or Cuautla. She has only been to Mexico City a few times, and hates going there. She loves her hometown, and has no desire to go anywhere else. In the meanwhile, her 2 sisters have travelled quite a bit around Mexico. Different strokes...


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## Zorro2017

ojosazules11 said:


> I agree. I have seen much more of Mexico and Guatemala than many Mexicans and Guatemala have seen of their own country.
> 
> For some this is by choice, but many (most) simply do not have the resources or time to travel (since time travelling means time not earning income to help the family - even if the daily wage isn't a lot of money by our standards, it helps buy tortillas and beans!)
> 
> One of my nieces (in her late 20's) who has lived in Tepoztlan her entire life has no desire to travel. She doesn't even like going to nearby Cuernavaca or Cuautla. She has only been to Mexico City a few times, and hates going there. She loves her hometown, and has no desire to go anywhere else. In the meanwhile, her 2 sisters have travelled quite a bit around Mexico. Different strokes...


I understand this. On my first trip down I often took the map and asked directions showing it and receiving blank stares. When I got here my friend explained that a lot of the local people have never been more than 20 kilometers from their house.


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## Ross&MaryAnn

La Osita said:


> I'm not a survivalist either, but we live simply in a small village outside of Tequisquiapan, QRO. I love to garden and so have seeds and plants growing in every nook and cranny. I’m relatively sure that I am not going to fit into the average as my lifestyle would be considered well below standard by US norms, and better than average by norms of the village we live in. My husband built our house on family land over a period of 15 years, room by room, so no present cost there, other than when we decide to make some improvement. We cook and heat water by propane, average 175 pesos/mo, Water 300 pesos/mo, Electric 150 pesos/mo., Phone/Internet 400 pesos/mo (my luxury). Food/Sundries 2500 pesos/mo . Gas for the truck 400 pesos/mo.
> 
> Yup, we eat beans eleven different ways, rice, nopales, veges from our garden as they are harvestable, eggs from our chickens and jalapenos and tortillas with everything.
> I’d guess with a buffer for the miscellaneous whatevers, we spend from 4,000-5,000 pesos/mo.
> 
> The only thing I'm missing is a library. I'd walk ten miles for more books! Ooh, I did spend $70 this month for the first time, with Better World Books... shipment on it's way!


Hi! My husband and I are interested in moving to Tequisquiapan, QRO area. It was great to see your post! We are looking for a place like have. My husband loves to garden and I love to eat his products! I also love to read and plan to bring at least some of my books. I have quite a few. If we end up in Tequisquiapan, QRO maybe we can start an expat exchange library! We plan to visit this summer to check out the area.


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