# Whats Safer?



## slb1 (Dec 24, 2014)

A house in a more ghetto neighborhood with bars on all the doors/windows or

A house in a private/with security neighborhood but no bars on the house itself?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Ghetto?


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I believe a well stocked bar in either location would work for me,LOL


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

What do you call a ghetto neighborhood? We do not use that term here. There are neighbohood and some gated communities.
If the security is very good in the gated community it is ok not to have bars but some are not that secure. I prefer to live in a regular neigborhodd have bars and an alarm.
By the way bars here is a normal thing to have on windows, it does not mean the area is a bad area it is just an extra security. Personally I love the bars and would not live in a house that does not have bars on windows or a have a garden without high walls.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> What do you call a ghetto neighborhood? We do not use that term here. There are neighbohood and some gated communities.
> If the security is very good in the gated community it is ok not to have bars but some are not that secure. I prefer to live in a regular neigborhodd have bars and an alarm.
> By the way bars here is a normal thing to have on windows, it does not mean the area is a bad area it is just an extra security. Personally I love the bars and would not live in a house that does not have bars on windows or a have a garden without high walls.


As long as we are talking about security, in cities where the houses adjoin each other with interior patios, the most common mode of break-in is via the roof into a patio.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

You are right TundraGreen. I Chias on the street where we live all the houses adjoin each other and one day we were all tagged with symbols showing where and how to break in. My house was tagged with the symbol to enter via roof and into patio...Some other house with the sme tag was entered just that way as well...


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> You are right TundraGreen. I Chias on the street where we live all the houses adjoin each other and one day we were all tagged with symbols showing where and how to break in. My house was tagged with the symbol to enter via roof and into patio...Some other house with the sme tag was entered just that way as well...


What did you do to thwart the would-be thieves?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The whole street was tagged, all the neighbors installed a system with 2 lights, a green and a red and a bell- Anyone in trouble would ring the alarm and everyone got out on the street no matter the time of the day or night. The neighborhood caught 3 separate thieves and then the problem stopped.
The neighborhood is very tight and everyone knows everybody so it is easy to see who does not belong and watch.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

My observations have been that it''s unusual to see a house without window barriers which prevent unauthorized entry. Describing colonias where homes and/or apartments are protected in this manner as "getto" suggests to me the maker of such a "ghetto" comment hasn't seen much of Mexico.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The op said she lived in other countries including the Dominican Repulic so maybe she is talking about a bad neighborhood.do not know..I would think you would have to be there to know.
In both towns we have lived the neighborhood is mixed and it is not unusual to see a very nice house or property srurrounded by very poor houses and usually all houses have bars.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> What did you do to thwart the would-be thieves?


In my case it was not "would be" thieves. A year and a half ago, someone entered my house via the roof and helped themselves to an iPad, camera, passport and credit cards that I had foolishly left out while preparing for a trip. I was only out of the house for 10 minutes. Since then I have added concertina wire around all of the patios.


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## ktmarie (May 11, 2014)

slb1 said:


> A house in a more ghetto neighborhood with bars on all the doors/windows or
> 
> A house in a private/with security neighborhood but no bars on the house itself?


Can you give us some more information about the neighborhoods? I think that might help people answer. 

Are you trying to make a housing decision from afar? Or are you already on-site in Mexico and experiencing the places firsthand? 

When we moved here we used airbnb.com to book a furnished apartment for a 2-week trial period with the option to make it month-to-month. I really liked this method because it gave us a chance to check out the apartment complex and the area and make sure we wanted to stay put. I agree with other comments that (at least here in Cholula/Puebla) nearly all places have bars on the windows. We have bars on all of our windows AND a locked gate into the complex. There's razor wire across the top of the gate and around the roof (I assume to keep out the kinds of thieves described in other comments). These types of security measures in the states usually signal a very bad neighborhood, but not here. We love our neighborhood.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

When Citlali and I moved to Lake Chapala 14 years ago, moving into a somewhat rough and poverty striken neighborhood adjacent to the lakeshore, we surrounded our house and garden with eight foot stone walls rather than the four foot walls there before we purchased the property. At that time, we also made sure all entrances to the home - that is, all windows and doors, were protected with decorative bars that added to the ambience and beauty of the property while providing protection from thieves. That was in 2001 when our newly adopted home town was relatively crime free or so we thought. Several yars later, as parts of the Chapala Municipalty began to experience a significant increase in local crime including home invasions and burglaries, we installed concertina wire in vulnerable áreas along the stone wall and installed a constantly monitored heat/movement alarm system that would detect any human intruders coming over the walls before they could get to the house and not only sound an ear-splitting alarm but notify the alarm monitoring comapany in Chapala who would come to our aid unless we called them off informing them the alarm was a false alarm. We figure that creeps casing our street will be attracted to residences or businesses poorly protected and, as is true of thieves in general around the world, hit carelessly protected residences or businesses while avoiding like structures with significant security in place. The constant monitoring costs us $400 Pesos a month and, over the years, we have found the investment well worth that. At least on one occasion, that shrill alarm scared the living hell out of some neighborhood thieves intent on ransacking our home as they employed a local spotter who told them we were out of town. Sfter that alarm system sounded, those guys were far away from here by the time the monitoring company arrived - probably after leaping over 12 foot walls shouting, "Feets doné fail me now", and, no doubt, with soiled underwear.

I might add that, we have always had a lot of aggressive dogs who roam the garden and universally detest uninvited intruders.

We don´t have these same problems in Chiapas as, as Citlali wrote earlier on this thread, we live there in a densely populated neighborhood that is mostly Mexican and these folks take care of each other. If anyone down there calls the (crooked) cops, it´s the thieves who have been caught by the neighbors and fear for their lives a the hands of those higly irritated localsand are seeking rescue. People living in Chiapas learned long ago that they are on ther own and they, therfore, have become very assertive when dealing with miscreants.

BBy the way, don´t denigrate iron bars on Windows, doors and balconies. We lived in Mobile for a time and just returned from Oaxaca City and the decorative (and protective) ironwork is those cities is marvelous and beautiful. That beautiful iron work is what sets those cities (and places such as New Orleans) apart.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Our house in Leon has no bars on any doors or windows. We built it that way, as we did not want to pay 1/3 more, for bars, since we have 21 windows and 5 outside doors. We have electrical fence, with LOUD alarm, above the top of the house, and above the top of the 8' wall that encloses 3 sides. Cost was about 6500 pesos 6 years ago. No problems any more (fingers crossed) from robbers. We have maybe 20 signs attached to the wire saying how dangerous the fence is to touch and that if anyone touches it, we will not be responsible for injury or death. Works for us.


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## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

And of course bars have advantages beyond safety - leaving windows open on a hot night to get a through breeze, walking out of the house without having to make sure all windows are closed, and kicking a soccer ball in the yard without fear of a misplaced kick causing an expensive accident. For convenience, as well as security, I don't think I'd ever again want to live in a house without bars.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

buzzbar said:


> And of course bars have advantages beyond safety - leaving windows open on a hot night to get a through breeze, walking out of the house without having to make sure all windows are closed, and kicking a soccer ball in the yard without fear of a misplaced kick causing an expensive accident. For convenience, as well as security, I don't think I'd ever again want to live in a house without bars.


Plus, depending on the style, they can have decorative value. I have had people complement the bars on my front windows.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

They definitely are expensive to install.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

I've only got bars on the two windows that face the street and that was mostly to keep people out during construction. All the rest of my windows have bars built in like the foto


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

sparks said:


> I've only got bars on the two windows that face the street and that was mostly to keep people out during construction. All the rest of my windows have bars built in like the foto


Sorry Sparks, but looks like a jail house to me. Too much country in me. I just couldn't live in a jail, but each to his own, no?


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Was my design and I don't like big panes of glass. My house up north was the same except of wood


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

This whole question of bars on Mexican house windows made me think of Mexican architecture in general leading me to consult Prof. Google. Here's what I found: Traditional Styles of Mexican Homes | eHow.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think this reflect an American idea of a Mexican home rather than real Mexican homes.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> I think this reflect an American idea of a Mexican home rather than real Mexican homes.


Except for the part about adobe, which was very much a part of Mexican houses, both rich and poor, in the past. Not so much so, today, maybe.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> I think this reflect an American idea of a Mexican home rather than real Mexican homes.


I agree with you 100% !
That's the romantic idea of some foreigners about "Mexican houses"
They think we live in the Haciendas and sometimes el Zorro shows up

Many friends, when arriving to Mexico, are looking for adobe homes, with wooden beams and colonial style, those houses are not that common and they are very very expensive.
By the way, it is not Colonial style in Mexico, since the Mexican territory was not a colony but a Virreinato


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

This is nicer


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> View attachment 34178
> 
> 
> This is nicer


I agree!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

The main reason I posted the link was to show the history behind the bars on windows you see on so many houses in Mexico. If you check out the section titled Spanish Colonial Style, you'll find this: _Windows are protected by elaborate iron exterior grates and the street facade may be closed . . . _


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> . . .
> By the way, it is not Colonial style in Mexico, since the Mexican territory was not a colony but a Virreinato


Historically speaking you're correct Gary - Mexico was considered an integral part of the Spanish Empire and was a viceroyalty, not a mere colony. However, it is quite common for art historians, both in Mexico and elsewhere, to refer to the art and architecture of that period as "colonial" in style.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

In San Cristobal adobe is protected and you pay dearly for good adobe homes with wooden beams usually full of pulilla and 2aguas tile roofs and so on and then you pay plenty for the upkeep as well..

I also love some of the modern houses a la Barragan you can find in some parts of Guadalajara, they usually do not have bars but some of them are pretty spectacular.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

In centro Patzcuaro you can't tear down an adobe and build something new ..... you need to restore it. To stucco/enjarrar over an adobe wall with no finish left they put up chicken wire attached with long nails thru (beer) bottle caps. I never saw the final finish but I bet it was not mortar like newer houses


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The bottle caps do not sound too original to me either..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> The bottle caps do not sound too original to me either..


Funny this should come up today. I have been repairing/repainting my adobe house lately. Just last Wednesday, we spent the day attaching wire mesh to repair an exposed part of the adobe. We used bottle caps and long nails to secure the wire mesh before covering it with a cement sand mixture.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes I know it is done that way, just mentioning it is not very original. I have adobe in front of the house in Chiapas as well but I have no idea how they did it.
My cousins in France have a 400 year old adobe and I can assure you the beer caps were not used on that one as it is wine country and no beer was allowed...

By the way are you using lime base paint? I was reading it lasted longer than other paints..and I would love to know about it because the paint that is used by INAH in San Cristobal last about one year and starts looking like hell very quickly..They redid the whole Real de Guadalupe street and the ex convento recently and it is looking awful already.
I do not know what they use in Campeche or if they repaint every year but there the houses look great.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

ktmarie said:


> These types of security measures in the states usually signal a very bad neighborhood, but not here.


I'll suggest that Mexicans, for the most part, don't outfit the homes with bars and razor wire for decorative purposes but because they're concerned about home burglaries and their personal safety. People who live in what some describe as "bad neighborhoods" in "the states" outfit their residences for the same reasons Mexicans do and I believe you will see more dwellings with bars and razor wire in Mexico than you will see in the USA.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Actually what KTmarie says is corect wire razor wires etc does mean the neighborhood is bad it can signal a good neighborhood as people are trying to protect themselves from burglars. and yes you see a whole lot more of there in Mexico than in the States.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

sparks said:


> Was my design and I don't like big panes of glass. My house up north was the same except of wood


Sparks, even tho Gary's bars are prettier than yours, I think yours would be very functional.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Functional? I sure would hate to have to clean the windows!


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

citlali said:


> By the way are you using lime base paint? I was reading it lasted longer than other paints..and I would love to know about it because the paint that is used by INAH in San Cristobal last about one year and starts looking like hell very quickly..They redid the whole Real de Guadalupe street and the ex convento recently and it is looking awful already.


Lime or Cal mixed with white cement is a common cheap Mexican paint that gets powdery very quickly. Commercial paints properly prepared will last longer


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

What they do is mix cal ,water and pigments, let it sit overnight and apply. They they ferment bava de nopal and add that to a coat. Is that it?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> What they do is mix cal ,water and pigments, let it sit overnight and apply. They they ferment bava de nopal and add that to a coat. Is that it?


Some people use that mix, it does not work nowadays, it's much better to apply a sealant and then the best paint for exteriors your wallet can afford.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks , I see the resulta on the ex convento Santo Domingo and the andador in San Cristobal and it is awful. I used it inside and it is ok but I can se it is a awful outside where INAH reapinted. Interesting that INAH also repainted Campeche and they did a great job there, maybe they relented and used good paint ..


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

That's another B/V thing but Google knows it as *baba*. Most people don't bother with it. My landlord would mix as he painted with no waiting

Here's how the government tells you to make it

Ingredientes para preparar una cubeta de 20 litros:
5ª 7 Kg. de calidra.
2 a 2.5 Kg. de cemento blanco.
5 a 7 pencas de nopal grandes y de preferencia maduras.
½ Kg. de sal.
Si se desea algún color éste deberá adquirirse en casa de materiales para la construcción.

Secretaría del Medio Ambiente - GEM


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

GARYJ65 said:


> Some people use that mix, it does not work nowadays, it's much better to apply a sealant and then the best paint for exteriors your wallet can afford.


I thought I replied to Citlali's question as well, but I don't see my post. I must have forgotten to hit submit.

The problem I have with both exterior and interior walls is that the adobe walls were most likely built directly on the ground with no concrete foundation to isolate them from soil moisture. The ground moisture wicks up into the walls for a meter or so. It then bleeds out of the wall destroying the paint. 

I am stripping bad spots down as far as necessary to get a good surface. Sometimes this exposes the original adobe. If adobe is exposed in a large area, I have attached wire mesh with bottle caps and covered with a cement/sand mix. Next the surface is covered with a mix of sealer and white cement. Then, the wall is repaired with a cement sand mixture to a smooth surface. Then sealed again, and finally painted.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes the adobe is terrible. On the fron wall of the house, I built a intrieru wall that does not touch the adobe and sealed inside the interior wall..The humidity in San Cristobal is terible. All he brick wals were opened up at their base and sealed so the humidity does not go up but it is a constant battle. You cannot use that process with adobe so it is a constant maintenance problem or you have to live with the peelong off paint..
Sorry I say bava (BAVE in French) because that is what it reminds me of It is spelled BABA?

yes for the paint they also use salt..for the outside it is useless, I like the look but it has to be done every year..


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## slb1 (Dec 24, 2014)

Hi,

Ok sorry for my use of the word ghetto. Could I better describe the area as sketchy or not that great? I did live in the Dominican Republic so I do know what to expect in a third world country. Where I lived (in the DR) it was all apartments and you knew that you better not live on the first floor because you would almost definitely be robbed.

I am moving to Nuevo Vallarta and it seems that in my price range it is all houses that have two options

1) Houses in sketchier areas... alot more poverty... with bars on everything

2)Houses with gated entrances with security guards, cameras, richer people, but big panes of barless glass on the main floors...

I am trying to figure out what is the safer situation...


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

slb1 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ok sorry for my use of the word ghetto. Could I better describe the area as sketchy or not that great? I did live in the Dominican Republic so I do know what to expect in a third world country. Where I lived (in the DR) it was all apartments and you knew that you better not live on the first floor because you would almost definitely be robbed.
> 
> ...


About your option 1. Some areas that may look sketchy to eyes used to the cleanliness and maintenance standards of the US may really not be sketchy at all. 

For example, the neighborhood that I live in is a perfectly respectable middle class neighborhood. However every house has bars on the windows. And as noted earlier in this thread, most every house in Mexico has bars on the windows. Many houses in my neighborhood are extensively graffitied, many appear run down and poorly maintained. There is often trash on the street. There are a fair number of houses that appear to be unoccupied. 

All of these conditions notwithstanding, the neighborhood is filled with very nice people, it is safe to walk the streets even late at night. There are just different standards, and different levels of resources, here than might be found north of the border.

The advantage of my apparently "sketchy looking" neighborhood, is that there is a mercado a block from my house with nearly every kind of shop you would normally need. There are a dozen bus routes within two blocks. There is now a shared bicycle program. So everything is extremely convenient without need for a car nor to deal with traffic for daily chores.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

slb1 said:


> Hi, Ok sorry for my use of the word ghetto. Could I better describe the area as sketchy or not that great? I did live in the Dominican Republic so I do know what to expect in a third world country. Where I lived (in the DR) it was all apartments and you knew that you better not live on the first floor because you would almost definitely be robbed. I am moving to Nuevo Vallarta and it seems that in my price range it is all houses that have two options 1) Houses in sketchier areas... alot more poverty... with bars on everything 2)Houses with gated entrances with security guards, cameras, richer people, but big panes of barless glass on the main floors... I am trying to figure out what is the safer situation...


I think the answer is obvious
The sketchy areas are not safe, by far
If you really have experience living in developing Countries, then you know that


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

sparks said:


> That's another B/V thing but Google knows it as baba. Most people don't bother with it. My landlord would mix as he painted with no waiting Here's how the government tells you to make it Ingredientes para preparar una cubeta de 20 litros: 5ª 7 Kg. de calidra. 2 a 2.5 Kg. de cemento blanco. 5 a 7 pencas de nopal grandes y de preferencia maduras. ½ Kg. de sal. Si se desea algún color éste deberá adquirirse en casa de materiales para la construcción. Secretaría del Medio Ambiente - GEM


I think they give that recipe to people that cannot afford better options
There is a plethora of good quality paints, COMEX, PPG, SHERWIN WILLIAMS, DUTCH BOY, etc.
With many options, anti fungus, anti graffitti, an so on.
I don't know of any contractor or builder that uses the nopal and calhidra formula


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Gary , INAH went through a kick of wanting lime base paint. Antigrafiti paint is not allowed in the historical center because "it is too shiny". Only flat paints are approved and not all colors. I had to go back 4 times to INAH to get the color I wanted approved...it was Frida blue.. I finally told them forget it I will use white because that is what the color was when the Spaniards arrived. The rules have relaxed and I noticed that some hotels get away with colors that are not approved..but if you live in a hitorical area you cannot always do what you would like on the outside of the house. There are new people at INAH but they were a real pain when I painted the house.

I know many people in Puebla and in San Crisobal using lime base paint on the inside walls so each area is obviously different.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> About your option 1. Some areas that may look sketchy to eyes used to the cleanliness and maintenance standards of the US may really not be sketchy at all.
> 
> For example, the neighborhood that I live in is a perfectly respectable middle class neighborhood. However every house has bars on the windows. And as noted earlier in this thread, most every house in Mexico has bars on the windows. Many houses in my neighborhood are extensively graffitied, many appear run down and poorly maintained. There is often trash on the street. There are a fair number of houses that appear to be unoccupied.
> 
> ...



If it is a poor area with the reputation of being iffy I do not see that there is a choice. Go for the gated place but check that the security is not a joke. There are gated community with good security where it is difficult to enter if you do not have an ID. I know one of them that asks for an ID and keep it , then they call the owners to make sure they want to see you , then give you something for your windshield, they also keep records of where you are , when you come in and when you go out..
Some other the guard just wave s when you want to go in unless you look like a worker or poor..and then you have everything in between.
Make sure the security is real security and ask around to hear if that community has had problems.

The people you will be working with should be able to give you an idea about the various places you are interested in.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

There is also the suspicion that many upscale gated communities with apparent security are not really secure. They can be the targets of the bad guys simply because that is where the money, jewels and nice toys are concentrated.
We always lived on a normal street in a normal neighborhood in Ajijic Centro and Chapala Centro; never a problem.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

You did not live in a iffy area in Chapala, the OP is talking about iffy areas. Nuevo Vallarta is not Chapala.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> You did not live in a iffy area in Chapala, the OP is talking about iffy areas. Nuevo Vallarta is not Chapala.


On the other hand, what a newcomer to Mexico may see as an iffy area may in reality be a nice neighborhood.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes it is true , that is why you have to look while in Mexico and ask for the opinion of the peole you work with.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

GARYJ65 said:


> There is a plethora of good quality paints, COMEX, PPG, SHERWIN WILLIAMS, DUTCH BOY, etc.
> With many options, anti fungus, anti graffitti, an so on.
> I don't know of any contractor or builder that uses the nopal and calhidra formula


Gary, are you familiar with Casther Paints. I have used the Sealer and found it to be excellent. My local Ferreteria in Jalisco sells it and highly recommends it.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

coondawg said:


> Gary, are you familiar with Casther Paints. I have used the Sealer and found it to be excellent. My local Ferreteria in Jalisco sells it and highly recommends it.


Never heard of it, just googled it. Seems to be a smaller company. I would not know if it's any good. Possibly better than lime paint


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> Gary, are you familiar with Casther Paints. I have used the Sealer and found it to be excellent. My local Ferreteria in Jalisco sells it and highly recommends it.


The guy helping me paint my house claims Comex is the highest quality paint. We buy sealer from a company called something like QuimiTerra. I would have to look at the receipt to get the name right and I am not near it at the moment.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I have heard from several painters that Cmex is one of the highest quality, unfortunaely in our area , they are not good at mixing paint and matching colors. I used Sherwin Williams because hey were good at coming with the color I wanted but i quit using them has Comex last longer and has better quality.
Casher is sold in ferreterias in the Chapala area., I have seen it here .

FOr the inside I use limebased paint because that is the lok I want. As long as there is no humidity , it is not a problem.


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## andi_correa (Jan 24, 2015)

Citlali - 

Wow...that sounds like a very tight-knit community. Where do you live? I'm looking into relocating to Mexico and a community like this would be an asset.

~andi~


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The community I am speaking about is the Barrio El Cerrillo in San Cristobal de las Casas, the old part up on the hill behind Santo Domingo Convent.


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## mxfan (Jun 7, 2014)

slb1 said:


> A house in a more ghetto neighborhood with bars on all the doors/windows or
> 
> A house in a private/with security neighborhood but no bars on the house itself?


Mmmmm, those 2 might be equal so maybe it all boils down to what a person really would be happy with. By the way, they both will be targets sooner or later.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

mxfan said:


> Mmmmm, those 2 might be equal so maybe it all boils down to what a person really would be happy with. By the way, they both will be targets sooner or later.


Are you speaking for all of Mexico or just for where you live?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

There is a street in Ajijic where lots of gang members, petty criminal live and one of the kids living on that street told me it was the safest street in town as everyone is gone working at night and during the day everyone is asleep..the comment was tongue and chee kbut there is some truth in that statement..


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