# Buying and rebuilding a ruin



## betelnutz

My wife and I are in the internet house hunting phase of our move to Portugal, we are planning to move in the next year or two.

I have searched online and found a few houses but nothing that is our dream retirement home. I am constantly drawn towards these old stone ruin looking houses 
in the north and have started thinking about rebuilding one but am concerned it might be too much to handle because neither of us speak Portuguese fluently. 

I am curious if any members here have gone the route of buying a ruin and rebuilding it and would like to share their experience with us. Cost, how long it took 
and how the entire process went. An example of our dream retirement home would be something like this we found on airbnb https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/403641
anyone have any idea what would it cost and how long it would take to rebuild a ruin like that?

Thanks in advance.


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## travelling-man

You've got no end of variables there....... and just a few of 'em are:

classification of house and/or land 

condition of ruin

material of structure

area/camara (is planning and/or pollution an issue)

area (prices vary dramatically between Algarve and Central/Northern zones for example)

And I'm sure there are several others as well. 

We've done one renovation and one rebuild and neither stayed within original budget and the rebuild which admittedly was drastic, took 14 months......... mostly because the winter rains meant a long delay. 

As for cost, that's yet another massive variable. Kitchens alone, let alone anything else can be bought for anything from a few hundred to many thousands...... and heating/insulation can also affect pricing dramatically. 

quite honestly, you need to look at each project separately.


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## BodgieMcBodge

A couple of questions. Have you any building experience? Have you ever lived in a stone house? If that's a no and a no then a third question 
Do you want to rebuild a ruin and have a house which is worth 50% of what it has cost you? 

If you look on Portuguese estate agent sites you'll find rebuilt houses which have been for sale for years as the owners have sunk more money into them than they can be sold for. To me you sound like an overseas buyer with cash to burn, traditional stone house is field stones piled on top of each other and mud infill and a render coat (not all are rendered), if someone doesn't keep the render or infill in good repair - ie the rain washes it out - then the place is unstable and 120cm thick at the base. Insulation? no stones and mud, this may be 2015 but that's how the traditional the village houses/ruins are here. My assumption is you have not bothered to look at houses here but done Interwebs research, apologies if this is wrong.


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## MrBife

It's almost always easier to build afresh than to rebuild a ruin and usually better because you can remove the opportunity for damp, put in proper insulation and a modern heating system. No problem to build new in the that same style and I would do my budget calculations at 1000 euros per m2 (building only and assuming you own the land already) on a sloping site like that using high quality finishes.

Everything in Portugal takes longer than you expect and a year would be quick, 18 months more usual and up to two years not abnormal for a larger property (250m2).


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## betelnutz

travelling-man said:


> You've got no end of variables there....... and just a few of 'em are:
> 
> classification of house and/or land
> 
> condition of ruin
> 
> material of structure
> 
> area/camara (is planning and/or pollution an issue)
> 
> area (prices vary dramatically between Algarve and Central/Northern zones for example)
> 
> And I'm sure there are several others as well.
> 
> We've done one renovation and one rebuild and neither stayed within original budget and the rebuild which admittedly was drastic, took 14 months......... mostly because the winter rains meant a long delay.
> 
> As for cost, that's yet another massive variable. Kitchens alone, let alone anything else can be bought for anything from a few hundred to many thousands...... and heating/insulation can also affect pricing dramatically.
> 
> quite honestly, you need to look at each project separately.



Thanks for the response.

Those are all valid points some of which I did not consider. Still learning what is involved so I appreciate your input.

Location will be central or north .. we think the Douro valley region is beautiful. 

The materials we are drawn are of stone and wood as seen in the example house linked in the original post.

We do not want pollution at all and we want views.

Thanks for the estimation and explanation of how time frame and how long yours took.

We will continue our research and to learn what all is involved.


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## betelnutz

BodgieMcBodge said:


> A couple of questions. Have you any building experience? Have you ever lived in a stone house? If that's a no and a no then a third question
> Do you want to rebuild a ruin and have a house which is worth 50% of what it has cost you?
> 
> If you look on Portuguese estate agent sites you'll find rebuilt houses which have been for sale for years as the owners have sunk more money into them than they can be sold for. To me you sound like an overseas buyer with cash to burn, traditional stone house is field stones piled on top of each other and mud infill and a render coat (not all are rendered), if someone doesn't keep the render or infill in good repair - ie the rain washes it out - then the place is unstable and 120cm thick at the base. Insulation? no stones and mud, this may be 2015 but that's how the traditional the village houses/ruins are here. My assumption is you have not bothered to look at houses here but done Interwebs research, apologies if this is wrong.


I have limited carpentry and building experience, however would prefer an expert to take on the majority of the work.

I would not want to rebuild or renovate a ruin and end up with a house worth less than the cost. Is that normal situation when rebuilding in Portugal?

You are correct in your assumption, I am an overseas buyer in the internet search phase of our house hunt as stated in my original most. We do not have unlimited cash to burn but are thinking somewhere around 400K Euros.
We may go with an already renovated ruin or a villa instead of building if it is too much a huge project.

Thanks for your input.


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## betelnutz

MrBife said:


> It's almost always easier to build afresh than to rebuild a ruin and usually better because you can remove the opportunity for damp, put in proper insulation and a modern heating system. No problem to build new in the that same style and I would do my budget calculations at 1000 euros per m2 (building only and assuming you own the land already) on a sloping site like that using high quality finishes.
> 
> Everything in Portugal takes longer than you expect and a year would be quick, 18 months more usual and up to two years not abnormal for a larger property (250m2).


Thanks, that is great info and advice.


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## paramonte

Stone houses can be structurally pretty strong and infill nowadays is cement, so pretty strong. The problem with stone houses is radon a radioactive natural gas the emanates from certain granites and is a leading cause of lung cancer. This is actually a problem!! 

I would say that not having minimal building management experience and not knowing the Portuguese grand scheme of building buorocracy may be a limitation. And the budget, which is an unknown


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## BodgieMcBodge

Here's someone's blog which you may find interesting

Emma's House in Portugal | a blog about buying a ruin, building a house and eating a lot of pastries

I would suggest that you need to spent time here and workout where you want to live before getting serious about buying, Portugal is a big place and varies with everything from beaches to mountains, bustling tourist hot spots to big old "colonial" towns to houses in the tiny villages in middle of no-where. For half your money there will a vast selection of property available even allowing you to buy one small place to live whist having your dream house renovated. And it will all take longer then you think it should.


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## ruipedro.sousa

I have bought and renewed a house in Sintra, although it was not in ruins and I am Portuguese, so no language barrier, but here are some comments I hope you'll find helpful.

- It won't be too hard to find English speaking Portuguese, specially in younger generations.
- Bureaucracy is a Portuguese hobby, there are people who specialize in helping out with paper work, they are called "solicitador' and have a degree in civil law (won't be able to assist you in court, for that you would need a lawyer). Might be worth finding one who speaks English and can assist on the process. Prices will vary a lot but this doc gives you an idea: 

http: //solicitador.net/uploads/cms_page_media/966/Enforcement%20Agent's%20fees.pdf

- Before buying visit the town hall, alone or with a 'solicitador', to make sure all the paperwork is right. This will prevent many issues in the future. Do not underestimate this step, it is a common cause for failed projects.
- You can either manage your rebuild, or hire a foreman that will find local people to help you on the works. Going with a foreman would make some things easier, but only if he/she is any good, so be careful.
- I suggest you always work on a closed budget, never pay resources on a hour or day basis. If you need plastering, ask for how much money and time they need. Make it clear you won't pay extra if they take longer, and *always* ask if tools and materials are included on the budget. 
- Some builders will buy materials for you, some will allow you to buy your own. If you decide to buy your own materials, in my experience what works better is to take the builder with you to the store, ask him what he needs, pay it yourself. Some builders may buy for 100 and then tell you it cost 150.
- Some builders tend to accept many contracts at the same time, they always make sure they work for new clients on the first week, but then they may be gone! So never pay too much money before they start, and always be on top of them to make sure they work for you. This was one of the main causes of delay on my case. It is better to make it clear: "I want you to work for me, and only for me."
- Be aware of the 'desenrascanço' attitude. It is both good and bad. Some builders are very creative and come up with amazing solutions with unexpected materials, but some of it is just awful and not fit for purpose 
- Houses built before 1951 do not need a rebuild permit, within certain legal boundaries. Adding a new floor/level would probably get in trouble. This is the kind of stuff the 'solicitador' can help with.
- If you need to do some electrical work make sure you hire a certified electrician who can submit electrical projects to the certification authorities. Same with gas.
- Try to get at least three different quotes for everything. Last month I had 3 quotes for retiling a roof, the cheaper was around 700 €, the most expensive was close to 3000 €. Not saying cheaper is better, but make sure you check this kind of stuff to keep your budget under control.

Hope this helps.


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