# Is capetown the right place for us???



## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Hello everybody.

I am currently living in London and have recently applied unsuccessfully at a DPhil in Psychiatry at the university of Oxford. I am planning on re-applying but as an alternative plan, I am thinking about continuing my studies at the University of Cape Town. More specifically I am interested in the Master in Clinical Psychology they offer.

I hope anyone on the forum who has any experience in the pursuit of a career in Psychology in Cape Town can help me sort out some issues:

1. First off, I wanted to know about the chances of finding occupation in the field of Psychology in Cape Town. I was recently looking at statistics regarding psychoanalysis, and was quite surprised to read that at the moment in the whole SA there appear to be only 6-8 qualified psychoanalysts. Again, I would be pursuing a career in the field of clinical psychology so I suppose the market is larger, but this statistic really made me doubt on whether it is easy or at least reasonable to find a job as a clinical psychologist and make a living out of it. 

2. A second question pertains specifically to the University of Cape Town. I wanted to ask if anyone has any idea/experience of whether it is hard to get accepted into PostGraduate Programmes (PhDs and Masters) and more specifically if competition is plentiful in regard to the Master in Clinical Psychology.

3. A third more general question about life in CapeTown nowadays. I read a huge number of forums about safety and to be honest this aspect is the only one that still makes me double think about a possible move to SA. I would be moving with my husband and as a gay couple I was wondering whether there is anyone who can provide info/comments on tolerance/acceptance. 

Apologies for my many questions but I am really considering moving away from the UK. As much as I love the culture, respect, civilised manners, diversity and opportunities in terms of art, entertainment, culture, employment, I feel it challenging to keep up with the skyrocketing prices (I am paying 1100 pounds for an awful mini studio in Paddington), the constant lack of sun (1500 hours of sun per year...cmon!!!) and the general greyness of british life (even in London). I am dreaming of sunny places (being Italian, grey weather is my Achille's tendon), lower prices, beautiful beaches and generally speaking of better quality of life and the mother city seems to be a good compromise. Any comment is greatly appreciated!

Thanks guys!

Claudio


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Well Cape Town is a VERY gay-friendly city - so you don't have to worry about that component at all. My father is a psychologist ( not clinical though) - I could ask him - but I think there are plenty of gainfully employed clinical psychologists in SA. In a lot of ways everything you've heard about crime is pretty much true ( well the rational stuff ). Do your due diligence, pay for security and you should be ok .... mostly. 

I do advise against hiking in the city and close surrounds. Too many attacks on people lately.

I know nothing about getting accepted into UCT so I won't touch that. If you have a chance - I suggest you come and spend 3 months in cape town. Rent a place in the southern suburbs so you'll be close to UCT and you can get a good feel for life. Some things you won't really get a feel for until you completely submerge yourself. I've lived here for 7 years and was gone for about 15. I still visited every year sometimes twice to thrice a year. Even with this return - there were factors I was completely unprepared for. You will probably have a cheaper cost of living than the UK - but you may also be surprised at how "not cheap" cape town can be. The cost really revolves around ocean view and security. But if you're looking for a flat you'll be fine.

I will warn you - the southern suburbs get a lot more rain than the rest of the city. I personally don't like that side of town. I prefer the west coast ( but your commute would suck). The sun sets in the west so the days are actually longer....


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## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

pingu007 said:


> Hello everybody.
> 
> I am currently living in London and have recently applied unsuccessfully at a DPhil in Psychiatry at the university of Oxford. I am planning on re-applying but as an alternative plan, I am thinking about continuing my studies at the University of Cape Town. More specifically I am interested in the Master in Clinical Psychology they offer.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I have studied at UCT as foreign student and live in Cape Town so I hope I can help you a little bit. First I don't know much about your field, but if you want to study at UCT I would call them and see if they will take international students. I know some areas they did not. (This is when I was studying at UCT) Also the year has just started so you would not be able to apply for 2014 and would need to apply for 2015. The tuition for international students is very steep and you need to take that into consideration. 

Also you should see if the degree from UCT would be recognized if you went back to the UK to practice. And if not what other classes would you have to take to transfer you degree over to make it valid in the UK. 

You would need to sort out some type of visa if you are moving over with your husband. (not sure what would be the best one for you) You wouldn't have any problem being a gay couple in Cape Town. I feel Cape Town is one of the more accepting areas. 

As far as safety this has been a 'hot topic' lately. I think if you have a little time come down to Cape Town for a visit. Go to UCT and speak to them about what you want to study. Bring your transcripts and make an appt. That way if you apply you can reference who you spoke to, and you will have a feel of the city and where you would like to live.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

MissGlobal said:


> Well Cape Town is a VERY gay-friendly city - so you don't have to worry about that component at all. My father is a psychologist ( not clinical though) - I could ask him - but I think there are plenty of gainfully employed clinical psychologists in SA. In a lot of ways everything you've heard about crime is pretty much true ( well the rational stuff ). Do your due diligence, pay for security and you should be ok .... mostly.
> 
> I do advise against hiking in the city and close surrounds. Too many attacks on people lately.
> 
> ...


Hello there!

Thanks for your reply! Can I just ask you to ask your father about perspective employment for psychologists in CT? That would be so helpful. I was reading a post the other day about an engineer planning to move to CT and someone was saying unemployment rates for engineers are quite high down there so I was wondering if that is the case for psychologists too....


About accommodation...I guess we would rent a flat and certainly we would like to stay as close to a beach as possible without spending a fortune. You know, a good balance between balance-safety-location. Any specific suggestions so that I can check out real estate websites?

Thankx!!!


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

2fargone said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have studied at UCT as foreign student and live in Cape Town so I hope I can help you a little bit. First I don't know much about your field, but if you want to study at UCT I would call them and see if they will take international students. I know some areas they did not. (This is when I was studying at UCT) Also the year has just started so you would not be able to apply for 2014 and would need to apply for 2015. The tuition for international students is very steep and you need to take that into consideration.
> 
> ...


Hello there!

in regard to your reply, I browsed the UCT website and looked at specifics about the application process. The deadline is in May so I should be able to make it, no problem. As per tuition, I checked on the site and for intl students it should be around ZAR45000, which is really nothing compared to the fees I have been paying here in the UK (for example for my one year Master at King's College I paid around 7000 pounds!). In regard to the recognition of the degree in the UK, I would need to integrate with some courses if I wanted to practice in the UK as a clinician, but my plan would be to stay in CT and work there. I would be totally disadvantaged here in the UK to find employment with a foreign degree (most clinical psychologists are employed through the traditional "UK PhD in clinical Psych -NHS" path. And these days even that path is an extremely competitive one. 

Can I ask you if you know anything at all about rejections of application? In your experience, is it tough to get accepted at UCT? I have a great intl curriculum (one BA in Italy, one BA in the USA and one MSc in the UK) and high grades so I anticipate it would not be challenging , still I don't know....


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

for sites :

property24.com
privateproperty.co.za


I will say this... employment for white people isn't so easy here.... so be aware of that factor....

and yeah I'll ask my dad.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

MissGlobal said:


> for sites :
> 
> property24.com
> privateproperty.co.za
> ...


I am sorry...can you elaborate on this: "employment for white people isn't so easy here.." ??

What do you mean?

Thanx!


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Affirmative action aka BEE out here is in full swing. Therefore there's a preference for blacks , ******** , women and then white males. So it reduces the number of potential jobs significantly. It doesn't mean you can't find work - but you should know what you are up against...


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

I apologise, but that's not true, I have to step in here again on the BEE issue. Too often I see this taken out of context.

Employment for any qualified person (a Masters or even normal degree is VERY qualified in SA) is not a problem. You are only possibly strongly affected by BEE when you are not qualified.

Sure, you may not get that one job and when you see it taken by a "BEE" person, you can blame it on that. However, there are more than enough jobs to go around for qualified people in any field in SA.

Sorry to sound (and perhaps be) facetious, but unless you have worked for 5 years in recruitment in SA and another 4 in immigration in SA like I have, I doubt you'll know these trends better than me.

As a foreigner, your concern is not BEE, but finding a job above all other South Africans. And that is far harder than any BEE problem.

Good luck in SA!


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## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

I have a Masters and I have had so much trouble with the job market. So many jobs I can't even apply for because of BEE. I don't really agree that there are more than enough qualified jobs for people. I know many people in my shoes who have a masters that are doing waiting tables or working in a call center.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Well, I don't know many and haven't come across many, ever. Perhaps there are certain qualifications where this does not apply. What qualification do you have?


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Does anyone have insight specifically into Psychology? I am aware that employment dynamics can vary quite a lot across different fields and I was specifically looking some comments on psychology.

Any help at all?


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## hedgehog1 (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi
I have many nieces/nephews/families living in SA and hear a lot about how the BEE is affecting getting jobs for whites. However, I have also heard two guys ( 20's/early 30's) who've literally walked into places and got great jobs....
I also suggest you at least fly down for even a few weeks ( the temperatures are wonderful at the moment), visit the University, either contact an estate agent or just pick up the local newspaper and have a look at some properties to see how much they go for and what you'll be able to afford and where. perhaps even visit employment agencies and chat to them about all your queries.
I've just done the same and found the whole experience a lot of fun with very positive information. With the great exchange rate, its a very cheap to do and so worthwhile as asking questions online is great, but nothing beats actually being there and asking person to person.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks for the advice hedgehog1. I think it is always the best idea to try and see first hand what it is the impression/feel you get in a place before moving. In fact I am seriously considering spending some time this Summer to see personally how things are.

I wanted to ask for ideas/comments on another issue that is making me quite concerned lately. I only speak English and by looking at statistics I realised that only about 30% of capetonians consider English as their first language. Do you guys think that realistically, speaking only English would represent a huge barrier when it comes to employment, but also in terms of feeling isolated? Or am I just being over-dramatic (which I have a tendency to do btw...)

Any comment really appreciated. 

Thanks!


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## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

pingu007 said:


> Thanks for the advice hedgehog1. I think it is always the best idea to try and see first hand what it is the impression/feel you get in a place before moving. In fact I am seriously considering spending some time this Summer to see personally how things are.
> 
> I wanted to ask for ideas/comments on another issue that is making me quite concerned lately. I only speak English and by looking at statistics I realised that only about 30% of capetonians consider English as their first language. Do you guys think that realistically, speaking only English would represent a huge barrier when it comes to employment, but also in terms of feeling isolated? Or am I just being over-dramatic (which I have a tendency to do btw...)
> 
> ...


I think you are being over-dramatic. If you are in major cities you will be fine with just speaking English. Most people I know speak English and Afrikaans. Some small villages I have been to I am greeted in Afrikaans. I can usually always find someone who speaks English and can help me. 

Put it this way I have traveled all over South Africa and I have NEVER had a problem with finding someone who speaks English.


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## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

You've asked for comments on employment in Psychology, my wife is an educational psychologist and my daughter a clinical psychologist. They both recommend that in terms of jobs, educational psychology is the way forward, there is a serious shortage of educational psychologist in the Western Cape. However, in any other field of psychology it is very much more difficult since for instance clinical psychologist are mainly employed by hospitals. There is no shortage in this area, but I suggest that you visit CT and make an appointment to speak to the staff at the psychology department at UCT who will be able to give you a much clearer picture.


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## LisaCapeTown (Mar 3, 2014)

I have just finished studying a Masters in Marine Science at UCT and applying was incredibly easy and there is a large international contingent at the University, particularly in postgrad education. UCT's got a great reputation but don't come expecting the standard of education you would receive from one of the UK's top universities. Having said that, I have a friend who completed her 5 year Psychology Diploma in Germany and has just been told by the SAQA, the people who determine how your degree compares to the SA qualification, that hers is only worth a Bachelors so go figure!

From reading your post one thing I would be very concerned with is the idea that you can just walk into South Africa and apply for a job. It doesn't work that way.

The BEE issue aside, the SA Immigration service are in the process of tightening the rules about who can apply for the right to work in South Africa. For you to be able to get a work visa for a specific company they would have to demonstrate that the job had been advertised nationally and there was no suitable South Africa candidate, irrespective of race or gender. In addition, employers who employ white, non- South Africans have a greater tax burden to pay which makes you a less attractive candidate.

I went for a job interview a month ago and was told by the employer that due to the wait in processing a work visa, and the hassle, they would not assist me in obtaining one and they suggested I apply for an exceptional skills visa in my own right before I apply for any other jobs. This category will no longer exist after 1st April and nobody's really very sure what the implications of that will be.

The cost of living in Cape Town was also a bit of a shock to me when I arrived. If you want a place by the beach as you say but still want to be in the city, accommodation is still cheaper than London but not as cheap as you'd expect. Have a look on Gumtree SA to get an idea and check out place along the Atlantic Seaboard.

I don't meant to come across as negative but I think it's great to have the facts in front of you but there are some massive positives too.

Cape Town is a beautiful city and in my opinion well worth all the hassle you're going to have trying to stay. There's always something going on, there's culture and art and music and then as you say, there's the beach and the mountain. The pace of life is a whole step back from the UK and the madness of the rat race and it's a great quality of life. Your university fees will be much cheaper than the UK equivalent. My roommate's gay so I can confirm there is a pretty good scene here.

My suggestion would be to come check the place out in SA winter though as it was a bit of a shock to the system. I'm still considering ditching the Marine field and going into business supplying central heating and double glazing, I think I'd make millions!

Good luck with your decision making.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi Lisa

You are right about the tightening of the immigration regulations. But that doesn't make it more difficult for the right person to enter SA.



> The BEE issue aside, the SA Immigration service are in the process of tightening the rules about who can apply for the right to work in South Africa. For you to be able to get a work visa for a specific company they would have to demonstrate that the job had been advertised nationally and there was no suitable South Africa candidate, irrespective of race or gender. In addition, employers who employ white, non- South Africans have a greater tax burden to pay which makes you a less attractive candidate.


Actually this advertisement is going to be scrapped and the Department of Labour is being brought in to assess skills. Bear in mind I don't know any country in the world that doesn't put they citizens first. To work in Germany you must, loosely speaking, prove that no-one in the entire EU can do the job ahead of you.



> I went for a job interview a month ago and was told by the employer that due to the wait in processing a work visa, and the hassle, they would not assist me in obtaining one and they suggested I apply for an exceptional skills visa in my own right before I apply for any other jobs. This category will no longer exist after 1st April and nobody's really very sure what the implications of that will be.


What do you mean? Many people are very sure of the implications. I posted on News24 and over 50,000 people read the article. The Critical Skills Visa will come about, replacing both the Quota Work Permit and the Exceptional Skills Work Visa. The only thing still in doubt are which professions and skills will appear on the new list, still to be published.

Immigration regulations that have changed are mainly those to stop the "naughty" people, those who are "life partners" in a 3 week relationship or those who say they will create 5 jobs for their business visa, and then hire 5 part-time gardeners.


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## LisaCapeTown (Mar 3, 2014)

Don't think I'm disagreeing with you LegalMan but from the point of view of someone who was hoping to apply for an exceptional skills visa, not knowing what those new critical skills categories will be does make it a bit confusing. I speak from personal experience!

This shouldn't be a problem for you though Pingu007 hopefully things will have been clarified by the time you get here!


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

> Don't think I'm disagreeing with you LegalMan but from the point of view of someone who was hoping to apply for an exceptional skills visa, not knowing what those new critical skills categories will be does make it a bit confusing. I speak from personal experience!


True, I agree. Didn't mean to sound argumentative. Immigration is always a job on its own, and very stressful for most.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Hi Jem62 and thank you so much for the insight! That was really helpful. 

My ideal plan would be, rather than looking for employment in hospitals, to pursue a career as a private practitioner and would like to train as a psychoanalyst while doing my Master in Clinical Psychology. I am quite aware that there are great challenges when it comes to being employed in the Public health system (it is as difficult here with the NHS) so possibly this is a route I would not go into.

Can I ask about you your wife and daughter's experience with the labour market? Was it difficult fro them to find employment? I am not sure whether they have a South African or British passport so it would be really useful to know more about their background (also in terms of the qualification they have). I hope not to be intrusive with my question..it is just really useful to know more...

Thanks again for your help!




Jem62 said:


> You've asked for comments on employment in Psychology, my wife is an educational psychologist and my daughter a clinical psychologist. They both recommend that in terms of jobs, educational psychology is the way forward, there is a serious shortage of educational psychologist in the Western Cape. However, in any other field of psychology it is very much more difficult since for instance clinical psychologist are mainly employed by hospitals. There is no shortage in this area, but I suggest that you visit CT and make an appointment to speak to the staff at the psychology department at UCT who will be able to give you a much clearer picture.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah...I have a tendency to get anxious..hahah

I guess it is probably not so different from any big city in the world (like London) where most of the people speak at least decent English but at the same time may have a second language as their first choice.



2fargone said:


> I think you are being over-dramatic. If you are in major cities you will be fine with just speaking English. Most people I know speak English and Afrikaans. Some small villages I have been to I am greeted in Afrikaans. I can usually always find someone who speaks English and can help me.
> 
> Put it this way I have traveled all over South Africa and I have NEVER had a problem with finding someone who speaks English.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks Lisa. This is extremely helpful. 

In regard to the quality of teaching, which according to you is lower at UCT, I have to be honest and say that the quality of teaching in my UK institution was not the best. Having studied both in America and the UK, I personally found the quality of teaching in the latter a step behind that of the US system (especially in terms of active/critical learning). But then again, this might be my very personal opinion, as I am aware that the highest ranked institutions worldwide are in the UK (by the way, I studied at King's College, London).

Thank you for the insight about the potential problem with the recognition of intl degrees. Before applying to the Master at UCT I will make sure that my MSc is recognised in the SA system.


About the job market...I am getting quite scared by reading at what you guys have written. I certainly do not expect to find a job behind the corner, but it really seems that because of the BEE and the Visa issues it is challenging to find employment for a white, international (albeit super qualified) person as I am. I mean, jobs are not given as candies here in London too and we all know that these are tough times but this is really something I need to give some extra thought about. 

Can I ask you what your plans are now? Were you able to find employment eventually? Are you working at all?

Thank you!
Claudio




LisaCapeTown said:


> I have just finished studying a Masters in Marine Science at UCT and applying was incredibly easy and there is a large international contingent at the University, particularly in postgrad education. UCT's got a great reputation but don't come expecting the standard of education you would receive from one of the UK's top universities. Having said that, I have a friend who completed her 5 year Psychology Diploma in Germany and has just been told by the SAQA, the people who determine how your degree compares to the SA qualification, that hers is only worth a Bachelors so go figure!
> 
> From reading your post one thing I would be very concerned with is the idea that you can just walk into South Africa and apply for a job. It doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Apply for all the positions, regardless of BEE. I worked in recruitment and the amount of times I placed a "non-BEE" person in a "BEE" role was astounding.


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## pingu007 (Feb 18, 2014)

Does anyone of you guys know anything about the possibilities of employment during my course of studies? It seems that intl students are entitled to work up to 20 hours....


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Up to 20 hours per week, yes, for those on a Study Permit.

Although you cannot legally work longer than that, every single waiter does. Never in my life have I seen Home Affairs "arresting" someone for breaking this rule though.

Hmmm...


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Pingu - don't get scared about these challenges. I think the take home message here is - it's always best to test out an area before you fully commit. This would be the same no matter where you are considering to live. I had the benefit of roughly 10 years of annual visits to SA ( sometimes for 6 - 8 weeks at a time) to give me context and there are still huge things I missed. If financially you can afford to spend some time out here - it's a really good idea. Get a chance to meet people, visit potential employers, visit the universities, get a feel for the areas, meet with recruiters, go grocery shopping, see what hospitals look like , take a stroll through home affairs, see what police stations look like, take public transport, hit the malls, view potential apartments to rent, etc. I even suggest if you can go for a checkup or two with a doctor - do so - so you can experience healthcare here. Try to take it in from the resident standpoint - not the tourist one ( as the tourist cape town reality and the resident one is very different). 

We will all give you our opinions but ultimately you will make your experience unique to your needs.


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## Tim76 (Jan 25, 2014)

This is an interesting topic: SA immigration & foreign qualifications. I may need ur opinion on my situation as well. Got a law degree which SAQA recognised as comparable to bachelor of laws according to SA educational system. Waiting for a PR in order to look for something in that field...as i was told without a PR it wont pay my bills in the legal industry ....I m passionate about Law! Does anyone know how to go about that? Is anyone in my situation?


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## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

Tim76 said:


> This is an interesting topic: SA immigration & foreign qualifications. I may need ur opinion on my situation as well. Got a law degree which SAQA recognised as comparable to bachelor of laws according to SA educational system. Waiting for a PR in order to look for something in that field...as i was told without a PR it wont pay my bills in the legal industry ....I m passionate about Law! Does anyone know how to go about that? Is anyone in my situation?


Hi Tim,

I would start a new topic! More people would see it. Can you tell us where you got the Law Degree from?

But side note South Africa does LLB it's 3 years. It's considered a Bachelors of Laws.

The USA for example does a Bachelors and then you get your Law Degree a J.D.
This equals 4 years for a Bachelors and then 3 years for a J.D.


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## Tim76 (Jan 25, 2014)

Hi.
I got my law degree from the university of Congo(Brazzaville) ...the other Congo(as we say to distance ourselves from the DRC). Lol. Then submitted to SAQA for evaluation. The Law in the Republic of Congo is based entirely on the French Law. Been working for the past 7 years in the field of Risk and Fraud Investigations...waiting for PR...my story in SA.
Thx


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## ALL101 (Mar 7, 2014)

Hi pingu007, could you not set up your own private practice and work in Cape Town self employed? Maybe speak to some immigration experts. A lot of people here set up their own business.


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