# Renouncing US citizenship (US/UK dual citizenship): questions about appointments and forms



## HTRTY

Hello,

I am a US/UK dual citizen (born in the UK) and have become compliant via the streamlined procedure. My fourth year of tax returns will be filed shortly so I am now looking to book an appointment to renounce. I contacted the Brussels embassy (the London embassy wasn't taking appts at the time) and they told me the wait time for an appointment is between four and six months. Then of course the US Embassy in London opened up their booking system again...

I'd be grateful if anyone can give me any answers to the following questions:

1. Can you email more than one embassy at a time to request an renunciation appt? It would obviously be cheaper for me to get to London than Brussels but not if the wait time for appointments in London is more than six months. I was thinking I could make two requests and then see which one came through first and cancel the other request but not sure if this is allowed.
2. I was born in the UK and have worked and lived here all my life. I have owed nothing on my tax returns bar a few dollars on the interest earned from some post office bond accounts. My house and accounts are worth well under the 2 million cap. I therefore assume I am not a covered expatriate and won't have to worry about an exit tax but am not sure if I should be taking legal advice to be sure.
3. How complicated are the renunciation forms? The various US tax advisors are all full of warnings that you should get proper advice before undertaking the process but I can't see that I need to given my situation (I hope) is fairly straightforward. Can anyone who has gone through it recently give me any tips?

Thank you in advance for any info and help. This forum has been a such a fantastic resource for me in the past and I'm still very grateful to the posters on my previous thread.


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## Bevdeforges

Ah, so another fledgling has decided to leave the nest! I think you'll be relieved to discover that it's a far far easier process than you might think. OK, to answer your questions:

1. Each embassy seems to have their own process for renunciation requests, so in fact, I don't think there is any way that one embassy would have the foggiest idea that you have tried for an appointment at "another" embassy. In fact, for those renunciations I'm personally familiar with, there isn't really a wait to get the appointment - it's just a function of you call (or request your appointment) today and the date and time they offer you is 4 or 6 or however many months out. Granted, I did my renunciation just before the pandemic got started - but for the Paris embassy at the time, it was a matter of submitting the preliminary documents and forms via e-mail, then you had a sort of phone "interview" (basically to confirm that the documents submitted were complete and to explain the process), and at the conclusion of that, they gave you the first appointment available (which in my case was a mere 10 days out). But, since each embassy handles their own process, your mileage probably will vary. But you won't know until you ask.

2. You really don't need "legal advice" for the process. To be perfectly honest, they never actually ask you about your tax status (or your financial status, for that matter). You do have to sign a form saying that you "understand" that you are supposed to be "current" with your IRS filings - but that can mean all sorts of different things. My friend in Germany hadn't filed US tax returns in ages - but because she was basically living on US SS and a couple other benefits that aren't subject to US taxes anyhow, she WAS indeed current on her IRS filings, because she didn't need to file. I've seen somewhere that only about 40% of the folks who renounce ever bother to file that final tax form 8854 - and most folks never hear anything more from the IRS. Others, who still have bank accounts in the US, just file the 8854 form, showing clearly that they come nowhere near the "covered expatriate" thresholds, and consider that their "goodbye and thanks for all the fish" sign off.

3. Not at all complicated. There are three forms that they "may" ask you to fill out, but they are pretty straight forward and you should be able to get copies of the forms to look over ahead of time. But they never actually ask you if you are up to date on your taxes - only that you "understand" that if you owe any back taxes up to the date of your renunciation, you are still responsible for them legally. Check the website for any US embassy to find a list of the forms - DS-4079, DS-4080 and DS-4081 - or google them directly to find them online.

Most folks I know who have renounced have been pleasantly surprised to find that the actual in-embassy experience was quite cordial with no real problems or any reason at all to be "worried." Depending on the backlog in the embassy you're dealing with, the delay between your initial request and your appointment may be shorter or longer, but at least here in Europe, the embassy personnel seem to be very matter of fact and even friendly. Keep us posted how you are faring.


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## HTRTY

Thank you so much, Bevdeforges! As ever, you have given clear and comprehensive advice. I will cancel the extra call I had booked with the US accountant to discuss this as it's clearly not needed. Thank you for being such a source of common sense and reassurance. I'll take a look at the forms properly now and put my appt requests in asap!

Again, huge thanks...and have a lovely weekend!


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## Harry Moles

Renunciation has nothing to do with taxes, it's purely a citizenship matter between you and the State Department. At most the consular official will remind you that renouncing does not wipe out any past tax debts. There are no questions about current compliance status, no checks to ensure that you've been filing. Once you renounce, all future US tax obligations cease, regardless of whether you have or have not filed in the past. If you are asked for a Social Security Number during the renunciation appointment, you are not obliged to provide it.

The process of making a formal exit from the US tax system after expatriation - confirming five years' compliance and filing Form 8854 to determine covered expatriate status and a potential exit tax bill - is quite separate from the renunciation process and, frankly, completely voluntary. Not surprisingly, plenty of folks renounce without bothering to go through the tax exit procedure, or filing anything at all. The IRS admits that 40 percent of those who renounce never file Form 8854, and the IRS makes no attempt to contact these people.

The forms you fill out are extremely simple. If you are renouncing, you only need DS-4080 and DS-4081 (you can see examples online). The DS-4079 form is for anyone claiming a past relinquishment; there are some reports of consulates asking for this form during renounciation, which is not correct. (The DS-4079 form does ask about past tax compliance, but only because that could be taken as evidence that someone behaved as a US citizen and is thus not eligible for a back-dated relinquishment.) The appointment is very quick, in and out in 20 minutes. It's not complicated. I have no idea why people think they need legal or accounting advice to manage a renunciation. As far as I can tell, the expatriation and tax-compliance business is an enormous, expensive scam (unless of course one is dealing with substantial US assets or other financial ties).

I was a dual citizen born in the US. I renounced in Canada recently - after waiting over a year for an appointment - without filing returns in this century (in the previous century I spent a few years studying in the US) and received my CLN shortly thereafter. As someone with no US financial connections you could easily have done the same (though hopefully you were rewarded for your troubles with the stimulus benefit). Frankly, with a UK birthplace you needn't have bothered with any of this, as concealing your (undetectable) US citizenship would have kept you fully off the IRS radar and not subject to FATCA reporting.


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## HTRTY

Thanks so much, Harry! That's all hugely helpful and reassuring.


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## Ritchie W

Hi All - I have finally come to the conclusion to renounce and after looking at the various things I need to do and getting confused this post has been the most enlightening thing I have read so greatly appreciate those who have contributed. I was just about to pay a company one grand to get all the tax compliance stuff in order and now in two minds to do it!
I am a New Zealand / Belgian citizen living in Brussels who was unfortunately born in the US to a Kiwi father working for the NZ govt in DC. I left the US when I was two - forty years ago - no assets / bank accounts / family etc - nothing in the US. I have been avoiding FACTA for the shear fact it all seemed so ludicrous but finally gave in with all the complications it’s giving and pay the money and get out!
I was under the impression that I had to show tax compliance at the interview but reading your advice this I understand is not necessary - so I don’t have to use the external consultant to file the tax stuff?


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## Harry Moles

You don't need to do a thing with the taxes, you just go to the consulate and buy yourself a CLN.

You said that your father was working for the NZ government in DC. Do you have any paper to show a record of this? If banks are giving you trouble with your US birthplace, you could attempt to claim that your father was on diplomatic service. Children born to diplomats are not entitled to US citizenship.


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## Bevdeforges

"Working for the NZ government" may or may not make someone a "diplomat" - but hey, it's worth a try. (Though I strongly suspect that some banks just turn over the information on all customers with "US indicia" (i.e. they "may be" US persons, but no one is sure). If you've got no assets and owe no taxes, chances are that all the IRS does with the FATCA info is file it somewhere and just forget about it.

In any event, tax compliance is never even a subject at the interview, other than on one of the forms or another you are formally acknowledging that you "are supposed to be" up to date on your tax obligation. If you owe nothing (even if technically you were supposed to have filed) you can say that yes, you believe you are current on your tax obligations with a straight face.


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## Harry Moles

The problem here is that banks will want a Social Security Number from a US person, and if the OP does not have an SSN then they risk account closure until they can provide one. But if the OP can persuade the bank that their father had diplomatic status, then the bank will not demand an SSN because they are not considered a US person.

What the DS 4081 form actually says about tax compliance is this:



> My renunciation/relinquishment may not exempt me from United States income taxation. With regard to United States taxation consequences, I understand that I must contact the United States Internal Revenue Service.


The first sentence means that past tax debts other obligations do not disappear after renunciation; despite this, one becomes NRA the moment one renounces. The second sentence simply means that the State Department won't answer tax questions - talk to the IRS - and alludes to the fact that there is a formal procedure to exit the US tax system after renunciation. There's a third sentence that alludes to the as-yet-unenforced Reed Amendment - anyone deemed to have renounced for tax reasons could be barred from future entry.


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## Ritchie W

Thanks both - I really appreciate your helpful guidance. I have tried the father working with the NZ govt and 14th amendment but the banks are just too nervous of the big bully in the playground - USG - and dont want to deal with any ambiguity. 

Sometimes the obvious thing just isn’t clear and all the noise from lawyers and tax specialists muddy the waters to their advantage ! I went to the US embassy website like you said and it all looks like plain sailing except the bill is going to hurt as my elderly mother would be a more worthy recipient of $2350 than the USG. Just one other word of advice - I am use to bureaucracy and don’t want anything messing up the form filling which I will do tomorrow.
I left the US when I was two so I don’t even know our address at the time. I was going to leave it blank or put in the address of the New Zealand embassy - any advice on that one?
so many of the forms require the input from the consulate people so I assume you fill all three forms in the parts for you and that gets all filled in at the interview.? I know a pretty dumb question but some sections are quite vague. I will do some google searching on completed example forms.

You guys are awesome and I would buy you a cold beer if I could! Appreciate your help.


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## Harry Moles

You don't need a street address for your last residence in the US, it's okay to simply use Washington, DC.

Why three forms - are you filling out a DS-4079 as well as a DS-4080 and DS-4081? If you are renouncing, the DS-4079 should not be required at all, that is for documenting a past relinquishment, which is a different process. Check carefully to see what forms your specific consulate or embassy wants you to complete, and follow those instructions only. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Canadian consulates sent out a separate form that one fills out when applying for an appointment; they asked for an SSN but since that's not required by the State Department and I did not want to disclose it, I politely said I didn't have one and they didn't seem to care.

If you are sufficiently offended by the renunciation fee you could attempt to file for 2020/2021 and claim the $3,200 stimulus benefit. As far as I know that's still possible.

I was going to refer you to some recent comments I'd made about the renunciation process but they are all further up this thread so presumably you've seen them already.


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## Ritchie W

Thanks Harry - Yes I was reading the above thread - I hope it all worked out for HTRTY 

Here is what the Belgian embassy is asking from me:

*SUBMIT REQUIRED DOCUMENTS*


To initiate the process, scan and submit the following documents to [email protected] (Subject: Renunciation – Last name) :


Evidence of U.S. citizenship: the bio-page of current U.S. passport, U.S. birth certificate or Report of Birth Abroad, and/or Certificate of Naturalization.
Evidence of any name change (if applicable): marriage or divorce certificates, court orders, or other legal documents regarding a change of name.
Evidence of foreign citizenships (if applicable): the bio-page of your most recent foreign passport(s), Belgian identity card or Belgian residency permit, if not a Belgian citizen.
Completed DS-4080  Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States.
Completed DS-4081  Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship, plus a copy of any written statement you wish to provide.
Completed DS-4083  Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States.
Once we receive your completed documents, we will schedule your interview at the U.S. Embassy in Brussels, Belgium. Appointments are generally scheduled approximately 3-6 weeks in advance and never sooner than two weeks after submission of the completed documents. This time allows citizens to carefully review legal requirements and consequences of renunciation of U.S. citizenship.


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## Ritchie W

I see they are asking me to fill out 4083 and submit - hence my previous question as I thought it would make more sense to complete it at the interview


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## Bevdeforges

You don't need a US address. The place of residence they are asking for on the 4083 form is simply your current residence. Lord, I would have had all sorts of trouble digging up any of my US addresses - especially the last one. Fill out as much as you can of that 4083 - I think the instructions say not to sign any of the forms until you are at your appointment (where they can witness your signature) - but filling in the 4083 will make things go a bit faster at your appointment. They'll either photo copy your form or just insert the answers into their standard blank to print out the final form that is your CLN (or that's what they seemed to do in Paris).


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## Ritchie W

Thanks Guys - I will let you know how it goes and if I have any snags.


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## Harry Moles

Weird - in Canada you filled out DS-4080 and DS-4081, but they later fill out and send the DS-4083 (your CLN).


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## LindaManning

I was born in the US and lived /worked there long enough to have both pension and social security payments. I became a Canadian citizen in 2002. I file in both countries each year. 
My husband and I are planning to retire in Spain—as early as 2023 (we are currently in Austria on a 2-year contract), and as late as 2025. 
Can someone help me understand the impact on my pensions and SS from the US if Irenounce my citizenship in the US?
Thanks everyone. The answers in this forum are very clear and informative.


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## Bevdeforges

Simple - if you renounce, then you are no longer a US citizen and no longer filing US taxes. That makes you a non-resident and thus subject to the NR tax rate. For US SS that is 30% on 85% of your gross benefit (i.e. you get a 15% allowance on the gross amount). The SS Admin withholds the 30% prior to paying out your benefit.


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## liza87

Hi all. These comments are really helpful, but I also have few questions and would appreciate it if someone can guide me accordingly. I am a European/ US citizen born in Europe, never lived in the States and don't have any US assets. I want to renounce my citizenship and have already requested appointments in various US Embassies in Europe given that I understand that the waiting time to get an appointment is very long.

Firstly, does anyone know if there is an Embassy in Europe which gives appointment for this year?

Secondly, I have become tax compliant through the Streamline procedure, but my question is do I really need to continue filing tax returns until I get an appointment to renounce? If I don't, am I subject to FATCA reporting?

Finally, when do you cease to be a US tax resident? When you give the oath of renunciation or when you receive the certificate of loss of citizenship?

Thank you


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## Harry Moles

To the second question, yes you would continue to have US tax obligations and be subject to FATCA reporting until such time as you have renounced. 

To the third question, you cease to be a US person when you are deemed to have renounced. If your renunciation is approved (which is almost always the case - the only reasons for refusal would be coercion or mental incompetence) your CLN will be backdated to the day of your appointment, even if it requires a month or two for processing.

As a dual citizen born outside the US you could have avoided all this by concealing your US citizenship from banks (avoiding FATCA) and filing nothing - no need to renounce. But at least by filing you managed to get the $3,200 stimulus benefit to offset the renunciation fee. Hopefully you didn't need to spend too much on tax preparation.


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## liza87

Harry Moles said:


> To the second question, yes you would continue to have US tax obligations and be subject to FATCA reporting until such time as you have renounced.
> 
> To the third question, you cease to be a US person when you are deemed to have renounced. If your renunciation is approved (which is almost always the case - the only reasons for refusal would be coercion or mental incompetence) your CLN will be backdated to the day of your appointment, even if it requires a month or two for processing.
> 
> As a dual citizen born outside the US you could have avoided all this by concealing your US citizenship from banks (avoiding FATCA) and filing nothing - no need to renounce. But at least by filing you managed to get the $3,200 stimulus benefit to offset the renunciation fee. Hopefully you didn't need to spend too much on tax preparation.





Harry Moles said:


> To the second question, yes you would continue to have US tax obligations and be subject to FATCA reporting until such time as you have renounced.
> 
> To the third question, you cease to be a US person when you are deemed to have renounced. If your renunciation is approved (which is almost always the case - the only reasons for refusal would be coercion or mental incompetence) your CLN will be backdated to the day of your appointment, even if it requires a month or two for processing.
> 
> As a dual citizen born outside the US you could have avoided all this by concealing your US citizenship from banks (avoiding FATCA) and filing nothing - no need to renounce. But at least by filing you managed to get the $3,200 stimulus benefit to offset the renunciation fee. Hopefully you didn't need to spend too much on tax preparation.


 Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't know that I could have concealed it, so now it's late and it cost me around $2,500 on tax consultant fees..what is this stimulus benefit? I haven't heard about it


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## Moulard

liza87 said:


> Firstly, does anyone know if there is an Embassy in Europe which gives appointment for this year?


From a workload perspective many embassies limit certain services to nationals and residents within their service territory. So you may or may not be able to get an appointment outside of the country you are living in or are a national of. So that is the first thing to check.



> Secondly, I have become tax compliant through the Streamline procedure, but my question is do I really need to continue filing tax returns until I get an appointment to renounce? If I don't, am I subject to FATCA reporting?


Yes. Even after your appointment you will still have one final tax return to complete if you want to exit cleanly from a tax perspective
As for the FBAR, a literal reading of the instructions would have it that if you are not a US person on the last day of the calendar year you have no reporting obligation, although some report along side the final tax return



> Finally, when do you cease to be a US tax resident? When you give the oath of renunciation or when you receive the certificate of loss of citizenship?


I understand that the Certificate of Loss of Nationality is backdated to the date you took the oath of renunciation. Anecdotally you will likely receive it months later.


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## Harry Moles

liza87 said:


> Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't know that I could have concealed it, so now it's late and it cost me around $2,500 on tax consultant fees..what is this stimulus benefit? I haven't heard about it


If you filed for 2020 or 2021 and you qualified (i.e. you didn't have a relatively high income) then you should have received $3,200 in stimulus benefits. It's possible that "the cheque is in the mail" and it may one day show up in your postbox. If you had set up a US bank account for direct deposit the money would have arrived quickly.


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## Bevdeforges

At any given time it can be difficult to predict how long it will take to secure the necessary appointment (or two) to renounce. And just be aware that each Embassy seems to have their own variation on the exact procedures they require to process a renunciation (though the fee for the act is identical at all Embassies).

If you didn't receive the stimulus benefit payment, it may be too late to claim it or the payments may be "lost in the post" somewhere (as is the case with a friend of mine who received the first two payments, but has never received the third, despite trying to track it).

As far as your tax status is concerned, it's actually rather irrelevant. They will "remind you" during the consulate appointment about your tax obligations and that you should be "up to date" on your filings - but they don't actually check that out in any manner. (The State Department and the IRS don't get along particularly well and don't generally communicate with each other.)

As everyone has said, your CLN is dated and takes effect as of the date of your final consulate appointment (assuming you have two rather than one). Technically, you are supposed to file US taxes up to the date of your renunciation, and then file a NR return for the remainder of the year you renounce, but in my case, I renounced early in January, so considered my full year return for the last full year to be my final return, and then filed the 8854 form separately based on the actual date of renunciation. Never heard anything about that so I figure it isn't an issue.

At this point, all the embassies seem to be seriously backed up for appointments so you might as well put your name in the queue and just wait things out.


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Hi there, Just found this thread which is very helpful and reassuring.

Does anyone know where this stat is about 40% of renouncers not filing 8854 and not hearing from the IRS?

My situation is that I am a UK/US citizen, born in the US but have lived in the UK since I was nine years old and have no personal or financial connection the the States. But trying to invest as a dual citizen is a nightmare and I've had pushy FATCA letters from my bank, so I want out. My tax situation is super simple, I am well under $2m net worth and I don't have any taxable gains or assets. I definitely don't owe the IRS money.

In theory I'd like to do everything by the book and get up to speed with my taxes when I renounce because I am nervous that there is some way this might come back to bite me if I don't. But it seems that to do your last 5 years of returns plus 8854 would cost me around $3,000. And I would really rather not pay that if I can avoid it, the renunciation fee alone is expensive enough.

Three questions:
1) Do you really think it's ok to just... not file? They're not gonna chase you?
2) I think someone mentioned above that some people just file 8854 without bothering to do the rest of the filing and that so long as you can show you're nowhere near the thresholds, that would be sufficient - is that a decent option?
3) Are there good resources for filing yourself?

Thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

I know at least one person who didn't bother to file anything after renouncing and that was that. The other approach if you really want to go "by the book" is to file the 8854, and just state that the prior five year tax returns showed taxes due of $0 (which is presumably why you didn't file anything). It seems a bit ridiculous to pay $3000 to backfile returns where you would owe nothing. And yeah, if your assets report shows clearly that you're well below the thresholds, that could be the way to go. (They really aren't going to bother checking on those prior year returns anyhow.)

The one thing I would do is to send a copy of your CLN (certificate of loss of nationality) to your bank(s). They may ultimately want you to give them a W8-BEN or one last declaration of where you are "tax resident" (for their records and to cover their butts for the bank reporting). But that's really all you need to do.


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Thanks, that's really useful! The person who didn't bother filing didn't have any issues at the US border or anything like that? I haven't been back to the states since my teens but would like the option to visit one day (as a non-citizen tourist).

When you say "assets report" would that just be part of 8854? 

Yes indeed, I will definitely be sharing my CLN with my bank as soon as I have one - a major motivation is to stop getting annoying letters from them about my tax residency so I will definitely be playing the "shut up I'm not a US citizen" card


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## Bevdeforges

Wannabe Renouncer said:


> Thanks, that's really useful! The person who didn't bother filing didn't have any issues at the US border or anything like that? I haven't been back to the states since my teens but would like the option to visit one day (as a non-citizen tourist).


My friend who just didn't bother to file anything is in her late 70s and really has no reason to go back to the US - not even for a "visit." But for years there were "rumors" that people who tried to enter the US after not having filed their US tax returns for years would be "hassled" on entry. Simply not true. The immigration people you deal with on entry to the US have no access to tax records for US citizens (unless perhaps the IRS has filed charges against you so there is a warrant out for your arrest). There are simply far too many valid reasons why someone living overseas might not need to file - and even if you had been filing, it's doubtful you would have owed any taxes, thanks to the FEIE, Foreign Tax Credits and other credits and programs designed to avoid double taxation. 

If you want to go back there as a tourist, you face a greater risk when you try to enroll in the ESTA system to make use of the Visa Waiver Program - particularly if you have a US birthplace. Most folks (at least those I know) hold off on renouncing until they're fairly sure they aren't interested in playing tourist back there any more. 



> When you say "assets report" would that just be part of 8854?


Yup - the 8854 consists of two main parts (for recent renunciants) - the report of financial assets (basically a personal balance sheet) and that listing of your tax liability for the previous 5 years.



> Yes indeed, I will definitely be sharing my CLN with my bank as soon as I have one - a major motivation is to stop getting annoying letters from them about my tax residency so I will definitely be playing the "shut up I'm not a US citizen" card


I can confirm that sending that into my bank got me a nice "thank you note" and they haven't asked me for any confirmation since. I know some banks were sending out requests to all their customers "with foreign backgrounds" asking for all countries where you were taxable. But as far as I can tell, that was a one-time thing when the banks first got serious about their FATCA obligations. (There is a similar, but considerably less complicated, requirement by the EU I think it is for disclosure of accounts held by foreign nationals.)


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Bevdeforges said:


> If you want to go back there as a tourist, you face a greater risk when you try to enroll in the ESTA system to make use of the Visa Waiver Program - particularly if you have a US birthplace. Most folks (at least those I know) hold off on renouncing until they're fairly sure they aren't interested in playing tourist back there any more.


Can you give a bit more info on the kind of problem you're likely to encounter with the ESTA system - is this something you've seen happen? I thought that the idea is that once you renounce, you should be treated the same as any non-citizen (except that you cannot regain US citizenship) so you should be able to visit as a foreigner? Would these issues arise for anyone with a US birthplace who had renounced, or would they only arise if you hadn't filed properly?

That's kind of been my main worry - ending up in a situation where I can't visit the US at all. It's not like I have any plans to visit soon, or frequently, or ever live there - I have never set foot in the US in my adult life - but it would be an issue if I was unable to ever visit the US in my whole life post-renunciation.


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## Bevdeforges

We'll have to try to flag down someone who has actually attempted to use the ESTA system and run into problems. But my understanding is that, when filling out the form for the ESTA system online, they do ask for your place of birth - and if it is in the US, they may say that you aren't eligible for ESTA registration. But that may have been fixed by now. 

One thing to realize is that the system for renunciation is not coordinated anywhere online. Each consulate seems to issue their own format of CLN and there is no registration number for the documents. In fact, the consulate usually tells you to guard your CLN closely as, if you lose it, it cannot be replaced.


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## Harry Moles

Wannabe Renouncer said:


> Does anyone know where this stat is about 40% of renouncers not filing 8854 and not hearing from the IRS?


Here you go:



https://www.tigta.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2022-02/202030071fr.pdf


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## Harry Moles

Wannabe Renouncer said:


> Three questions:
> 1) Do you really think it's ok to just... not file? They're not gonna chase you?
> 2) I think someone mentioned above that some people just file 8854 without bothering to do the rest of the filing and that so long as you can show you're nowhere near the thresholds, that would be sufficient - is that a decent option?
> 3) Are there good resources for filing yourself?


1) They are not going to chase you. You will not have problems entering the US, of if you do it will not having anything to do with the IRS.
2) I personally would rather ignore Form 8854 than file a deliberately false Form 8854. (My principle is, never sign a US government document on which you are not telling the truth. Far better to stay off the radar and sign nothing.) The only way to truthfully certify 5 years' past tax compliance without having filed tax returns in those years is if your income was below the filing threshold - approximately $12,000, though it can be much lower for self-employed or "married filing separately" status. The filing requirement has nothing to do with taxes being owed - if your income is over the threshold you are still required to file, even if your US tax bill is zero due to FEIE or FTC.
3) Lots. Start with IRS Publication 54.

Are you sure you can't BS your way past the FATCA controls? UK passports only show city/town of birth, not country, so if you were born somewhere that sounds even halfway British, could you not simply bluff and claim not to be a US citizen. There are many reports of Brits doing this successfully if they weren't born anywhere too obviously American (e.g. Las Vegas).


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Harry Moles said:


> Are you sure you can't BS your way past the FATCA controls? UK passports only show city/town of birth, not country, so if you were born somewhere that sounds even halfway British, could you not simply bluff and claim not to be a US citizen. There are many reports of Brits doing this successfully if they weren't born anywhere too obviously American (e.g. Las Vegas).


No dice I'm afraid - I was born in New York City :/


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## Harry Moles

Wannabe Renouncer said:


> No dice I'm afraid - I was born in New York City :/


Can you just smudge out the "New" and "City" and do the appropriate accent?


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Harry Moles said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tigta.gov/sites/default/files/reports/2022-02/202030071fr.pdf


Thank you!


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## Wannabe Renouncer

Harry Moles said:


> 1) They are not going to chase you. You will not have problems entering the US, of if you do it will not having anything to do with the IRS.


That's reassuring... I just get stressed out by accounts like this Unexplained denial of ESTA after renunciation of US... I understand that technically once you have renounced you should be treated the same as any other non-citizen (unless you make a statement in the interview about renouncing for tax reasons, or you're a non-tax-compliant billionnaire or something). But I worry about being in a situation where a system like ESTA isn't set up for renouncers, and there's an issue if you have to give your place of birth but there's nowhere to indicate that you've renounced, so they see you as ineligible and then there's no-one to query the issue with...

I guess I am also wondering, is there any _advantage_ to finalizing your tax returns when you renounce? A few people here have said that the IRS won't go after you, and that you won't have any problem travelling because of the IRS. So in that case - is there _any _case for finalizing your returns?


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## Harry Moles

Any ESTA problems a person might encounter after renouncing will have nothing to do with whether they did or didn't close out their US tax filing obligations.

Making a formal exit from the US tax system makes sense for anyone with ongoing US tax obligations due to US assets, income sources, expected inheritance of real property, etc. Otherwise not much point to it for someone without US ties, save for possibly collecting the $3,200 stimulus benefit to offset the renunciation fee. But that's only worth doing if you file yourself, instead of paying for tax preparation.


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