# Wire Transfers



## PatrickMurtha

I'm a new resident in Mexico on a working visa. My university set up my bank account with Banorte and automatically deposits my paychecks there, but I can't say as I'm very pleased with their service, so I might want to set up a secondary account. Are there any banks in Mexico that meet most or all of the following criteria?

1) Branches in most major cities.
2) Good at dealing with expatriates (my bank in Korea, the Korea Exchange Bank, specialized in that business).
3) Has a parallel website in English.
4) Has telephone customer service available in English.
5) Allows customers to make international wire transfers online. (Banorte doesn't, and having to go in to the branch to make the transfers is exceptionally tedious and, the way they do them, time-consuming. Also, I've already had a serious mistake made on a transfer that took ten days to rectify and caused me much grief.)
6) Has relatively low wire transfer fees. (Banorte's are extremely high, and, catch this, when they made and acknowledged a mistake on the one transfer, they still charged me an additional fee to re-do it!)
7) Allows international clients to link their account and debit card to PayPal Mexico. (Banorte doesn't allow me to do this, I discovered when I tried.)
8) Allows international clients to use their debit card for international Internet purchases. (This one might be uncommon, as the Korean bank didn't allow it either.)

Thanks for any insights!


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## DNP

Do you have an account in any other country?

WashDC/SMA


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## PatrickMurtha

DNP said:


> Do you have an account in any other country?
> 
> WashDC/SMA


Sure, I have an account in the United States, from which I pay my American bills. That's why I need to transfer funds on a monthly basis. One of the surprises of my two years working abroad is how complex expatriate banking is. I expected that it would be smooth and streamlined because there are so many people living outside their home countries these days. It has been an eye-opener to discover how far from true that is.


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## Kimpatsu Hekigan

*Bank that caters to ex-pats*



PatrickMurtha said:


> I'm a new resident in Mexico on a working visa...Are there any banks in Mexico that meet most or all of the following criteria?...


I think your chances of finding one bank in Mexico that meets all your criteria is just about zero.

That said, I would check out BBVA Bancomer. They supposedly have a "Preferred Customers' Unit (PCU)" staffed by English-speaking representatives that caters to ex-pats. 

Usually, there's only one Bancomer branch in any given area that has this PCU. For example, in Sinaloa, the PCU might be based in Mazatlan rather than Culiacan. From what I have heard, the quality of the service varies widely depending on the city, i.e., the larger the ex-pat population in a city, the better the service. Anyway, here is the URL for their website:

Bancomer

Good luck, and be sure to report back to us on your experiences.

-- K.H.


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## DNP

PatrickMurtha said:


> Sure, I have an account in the United States, from which I pay my American bills. That's why I need to transfer funds on a monthly basis. One of the surprises of my two years working abroad is how complex expatriate banking is. I expected that it would be smooth and streamlined because there are so many people living outside their home countries these days. It has been an eye-opener to discover how far from true that is.


I am able to pay my bills, make wire transfers, and make PayPal payments from my bank in the U.S., either over the Internet or by calling them in. Contact your U.S. bank to set you up for those kinds of transactions.

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


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## DNP

PatrickMurtha said:


> Sure, I have an account in the United States, from which I pay my American bills. That's why I need to transfer funds on a monthly basis. One of the surprises of my two years working abroad is how complex expatriate banking is. I expected that it would be smooth and streamlined because there are so many people living outside their home countries these days. It has been an eye-opener to discover how far from true that is.


You need to transfer funds from where to where? converting currencies in the process? (Unclear, sorry.)

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


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## PatrickMurtha

DNP said:


> You need to transfer funds from where to where? converting currencies in the process? (Unclear, sorry.)
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


From my Mexican account, to my American account. I didn't realize until I became an expat just how much financial institutions extract from you for the privilege of moving your own money! It makes me want to go "off the grid" sometimes, but that's just a fantasy, it's not practical.


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## PatrickMurtha

DNP said:


> I am able to pay my bills, make wire transfers, and make PayPal payments from my bank in the U.S., either over the Internet or by calling them in. Contact your U.S. bank to set you up for those kinds of transactions.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


I do those things through my U.S. account, too. But my income source is now in Mexico, so I need to get the money I earn from my Mexican account into my U.S. account in order to be able to do much stateside.


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## PatrickMurtha

Kimpatsu Hekigan said:


> I think your chances of finding one bank in Mexico that meets all your criteria is just about zero.
> 
> That said, I would check out BBVA Bancomer. They supposedly have a "Preferred Customers' Unit (PCU)" staffed by English-speaking representatives that caters to ex-pats.
> 
> Usually, there's only one Bancomer branch in any given area that has this PCU. For example, in Sinaloa, the PCU might be based in Mazatlan rather than Culiacan. From what I have heard, the quality of the service varies widely depending on the city, i.e., the larger the ex-pat population in a city, the better the service. Anyway, here is the URL for their website:
> 
> Bancomer
> 
> Good luck, and be sure to report back to us on your experiences.
> 
> -- K.H.


I was afraid of that! But Bancomer sounds like a promising lead; I'll check it out. 

Of all the criteria, the ability to make international wire transfers online without going to a bank branch is the crucial one. I throroughly appreciated having that ability in Korea.


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## Guest

My advice is to skip the MX banking system altogether. Keep your account in the US, pay your US bills there via internet, PayPal, etc. Use the US bank's debit / ATM card to get cash here in MX, and live a cash life in MX. 

I use ScotiaBank's local ATMs, which state during the withdrawal process that the max is 3000 pesos, but they will give me 5000 per transaction/day. The transaction fee at Scotia is 25 pesos. That works out to less than US$10 a month to draw out US$1800-1900 when pulling 5000 pesos each time. My prior experience was a US$35 wire transfer fee from my US bank, and another 400 pesos and some time waiting for the wire to hit my account on the MX bank's end for a wire transfer. Other MX banks have a tie-in with US banks and you can avoid ATM fees here (use the search function on this forum).

My US bank also uses the official daily exchange rate, instead of some make-believe Buy-Sell rate difference the MX banks use to generate more profits, so the better exchange rate through the US debit card wipes out the ATM fees for me.

Some people are worried about carrying so much cash in their pockets in MX, but you just need to play it smart. Go to a bank's ATM machine during daylight, keep the big wad in one pocket and a few hundred pesos in another pocket so you avoid showing off in public when paying for something, and just use your street smarts to avoid problems.


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## Hound Dog

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. In Culiacan you will not find that "******" branch they call a "Preferred Banking Unit" but that is irrevevant since that is a phony come on in the first place. Go to Bancomer or Banamex among other banks and they will take care of you and all of your needs including international funds transfers. I am astonished that you exhibit such inexperience after having lived abroad. I don´t mean that as a criticism, just an observation. You must have found a really fine job to live in Sinaloa. Cover your *ss when crossing the street there.


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## PatrickMurtha

GringoCArlos said:


> My advice is to skip the MX banking system altogether. Keep your account in the US, pay your US bills there via internet, PayPal, etc. Use the US bank's debit / ATM card to get cash here in MX, and live a cash life in MX.
> 
> I use ScotiaBank's local ATMs, which state during the withdrawal process that the max is 3000 pesos, but they will give me 5000 per transaction/day. The transaction fee at Scotia is 25 pesos. That works out to less than US$10 a month to draw out US$1800-1900 when pulling 5000 pesos each time. My prior experience was a US$35 wire transfer fee from my US bank, and another 400 pesos and some time waiting for the wire to hit my account on the MX bank's end for a wire transfer. Other MX banks have a tie-in with US banks and you can avoid ATM fees here (use the search function on this forum).
> 
> My US bank also uses the official daily exchange rate, instead of some make-believe Buy-Sell rate difference the MX banks use to generate more profits, so the better exchange rate through the US debit card wipes out the ATM fees for me.
> 
> Some people are worried about carrying so much cash in their pockets in MX, but you just need to play it smart. Go to a bank's ATM machine during daylight, keep the big wad in one pocket and a few hundred pesos in another pocket so you avoid showing off in public when paying for something, and just use your street smarts to avoid problems.


Advice appreciated, but the problem is, I'm not transferring money from my U.S. account to my Mexican account at all; the flow of cash is all the other way, since I'm a wage-earner in Mexico now, and not in the U.S. The financial issues for working expats are very different than those for retired expats.

The Banorte account has some positive uses. Their ATMs are everywhere. I can do a domestic transfer online easily, and I'm not charged a fee for that; so paying my landlady every month is a snap.


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## pappabee

Since your major problems seem to come from the fact that your money is now in your Mexican account and you need some of it into your US account my suggestion is to try this. 

1-See if your employer will deposit your income directly into your US account. Many multinational companies have the ability to wire transfer money into foreign accounts.

2-if that will not work trying using a company like Lloyd's. I know that they handle international wire transfers and they use the daily exchange rate.

3-you know what? You might have to use two different sources to do what you want. As far as Mexico goes, you are asking for a lot from one source.


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## PatrickMurtha

pappabee said:


> Since your major problems seem to come from the fact that your money is now in your Mexican account and you need some of it into your US account my suggestion is to try this.
> 
> 1-See if your employer will deposit your income directly into your US account. Many multinational companies have the ability to wire transfer money into foreign accounts.
> 
> 2-if that will not work trying using a company like Lloyd's. I know that they handle international wire transfers and they use the daily exchange rate.
> 
> 3-you know what? You might have to use two different sources to do what you want. As far as Mexico goes, you are asking for a lot from one source.


Thanks for the advice!

1) The school will not do that. They will only do direct deposit into the account that they opened for me, and no other. So I will have to maintain the Banorte account in any case.

2) That is possible. I will look into it.

3) Agreed! That is why I want to see if I can identify a second Mexican bank that can do some of the things for me that Banorte will not do. It is easy and free for me to transfer money from my Banorte account into another Mexican account, and if the second Mexican account allowed me to do online wire transfers to my U.S. account, I'd be a happy camper. 

No strong knock on Mexico, I like living in Mexico a heck of a lot better than living in Korea, but I am noticing that when it comes to matters like these banking issues, or mailing, shipping, and delivery issues, or, well, anything that has to do with *transactions*, Mexico is a more challenging environment than Korea. Despite my dissatisfactions in Korea, I have to hand it to them, they are super efficient!


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## Hound Dog

_


PatrickMurtha said:



No strong knock on Mexico, I like living in Mexico a heck of a lot better than living in Korea, but I am noticing that when it comes to matters like these banking issues, or mailing, shipping, and delivery issues, or, well, anything that has to do with *transactions*, Mexico is a more challenging environment than Korea. Despite my dissatisfactions in Korea, I have to hand it to them, they are super efficient!

Click to expand...

_It may be, Patrick, that your disdain for the "transaction" environment in Mexico arises from your unfamiliarity with the system. I know nothing about living in South Korea but I have lived all over the world and can assure you that your problem arises from your having yet to have mastered the local banking sytem in Mexico. We bank internationally among France, The U.S. and Mexico in major banks in all three political entitities, our transactions are without encumbrance and we receive the best exchange values that could be expected among clients not privy to special interests. You are slogging about in a quicksand of your own design. Take off the boots and relax.


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## gogoboy

*Banorte & Texas' INB*

Banorte owns a Texas bank called Inter National Bank. If you open a "Banorte Referred" account with INB, you have unlimited transfers back and forth between the accounts at no cost. The INB account offers everything a typical US bank offers such as online banking, bill pay, a debit card and you can link to PayPal. A cool feature is they don't charge an international fee when using your debit card outside the US. So it's just the straight up exchange rate. The inbweb dotcom website has details but you have to go to a Banorte branch to open the account.


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## DNP

I have not been, but many I know like Banco Santander...

WashDC/SMA


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## makaloco

PatrickMurtha said:


> It is easy and free for me to transfer money from my Banorte account into another Mexican account, and if the second Mexican account allowed me to do online wire transfers to my U.S. account, I'd be a happy camper.


I've inquired at my bank (Bancomer) about wire transferring money to my US account, and the branch manager said that I need to come to the branch. Keep in mind that some restrictions on international transfers may be part of anti-money laundering efforts. If that applies in this case, all Mexican banks will operate under essentially the same Federal regulations, and there may be restrictions on the receiving end as well.


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## PatrickMurtha

Hound Dog said:


> It may be, Patrick, that your disdain for the "transaction" environment in Mexico arises from your unfamiliarity with the system. I know nothing about living in South Korea but I have lived all over the world and can assure you that your problem arises from your having yet to have mastered the local banking sytem in Mexico. We bank internationally among France, The U.S. and Mexico in major banks in all three political entitities, our transactions are without encumbrance and we receive the best exchange values that could be expected among clients not privy to special interests. You are slogging about in a quicksand of your own design. Take off the boots and relax.


See, I knew that if I threw in that observation I would automatically draw a personal attack - par for the course for message boards - and of course I was not disappointed. Thank you, sir, for confirming my opinion! 

And in all seriousness, if on the one hand:

1) I bank at a Korean bank that allows me to do wire transfers online and never mucks up a transaction...
2) But I am forced to bank at a Mexican bank that does not allow me to do wire transfers online, and that mucks up the second wire transfer I do in person (their fault, not mine, by their own admission)...
3) And if, of the many dozens of shipments made to me in Korea from all over the world, none ever fails to arrive, and none takes more than 20 days to arrive...
4) But if, of the more than a dozen shipments made to me so far in Mexico, none arrives in *less* than 20 days, most take 40 to 60 days, and a couple go missing altogether...
5) And if, I am advised by expats in Korea, I never have to worry in the least about honest dealing or thievery...
6) But if, I am advised by expats in Mexico, I need to worry a lot about honest dealing and thievery, even among the employees at my own school...

Well, you get my drift. I might be forgiven for advancing a tentative observation about all of that. It's not a final conclusion, and of course you are right, I have plenty to learn about navigating my new environment, which is why I come on a board like this to ask for advice (and maybe to vent a bit too, why not?). But no matter what Internet discussion board you go on, there are always the Voices of Superiority who have everything figured out, and are always looking for an opportunity to tell people so.


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## PatrickMurtha

Hound Dog said:


> You are making a mountain out of a molehill. In Culiacan you will not find that "******" branch they call a "Preferred Banking Unit" but that is irrevevant since that is a phony come on in the first place. Go to Bancomer or Banamex among other banks and they will take care of you and all of your needs including international funds transfers. I am astonished that you exhibit such inexperience after having lived abroad. I don´t mean that as a criticism, just an observation. You must have found a really fine job to live in Sinaloa. Cover your *ss when crossing the street there.


Of course, you do mean it as a criticism, but whatever. I freely admit to lacking expertise in many of these matters in only my second year living internationally, and my first few months in a second country. That's why I asked highly specific questions, figuring that there were people on the board who could steer me in a good direction and therefore save me time.

And yes, it is quite a good job, despite your attempt at snark.


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## PatrickMurtha

makaloco said:


> I've inquired at my bank (Bancomer) about wire transferring money to my US account, and the branch manager said that I need to come to the branch. Keep in mind that some restrictions on international transfers may be part of anti-money laundering efforts. If that applies in this case, all Mexican banks will operate under essentially the same Federal regulations, and there may be restrictions on the receiving end as well.


That makes good sense; I had wondered about that possibility. One reason for the pattern I have been noticing - that it seems to be harder for me to get certain things done, despite the fact that I can figure out Spanish and I couldn't communicate in Korean at all - could very well be that there are major issues involving the flow of money, goods, and people between the U.S. and Mexico, while there are no equivalent issues between the U.S. and South Korea. Also, only certain cities in Mexico have a major English-speaking expatriate culture - Culiacan does not - whereas all sizable cities in South Korea do, if for no other reason than the huge number of ESL teachers everywhere in that country.


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## PatrickMurtha

gogoboy said:


> Banorte owns a Texas bank called Inter National Bank. If you open a "Banorte Referred" account with INB, you have unlimited transfers back and forth between the accounts at no cost. The INB account offers everything a typical US bank offers such as online banking, bill pay, a debit card and you can link to PayPal. A cool feature is they don't charge an international fee when using your debit card outside the US. So it's just the straight up exchange rate. The inbweb dotcom website has details but you have to go to a Banorte branch to open the account.


Now this is really helpful. I will definitely look into it.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> Also, only certain cities in Mexico have a major English-speaking expatriate culture - Culiacan does not - whereas all sizable cities in South Korea do, if for no other reason than the huge number of ESL teachers everywhere in that country.


?

I know from the TEFL websites I post on that there is a huge market for English teachers in South Korea. So how is that working out? Are younger Koreans becoming fluent English-speakers?


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## pappabee

gogoboy said:


> Banorte owns a Texas bank called Inter National Bank. If you open a "Banorte Referred" account with INB, you have unlimited transfers back and forth between the accounts at no cost. The INB account offers everything a typical US bank offers such as online banking, bill pay, a debit card and you can link to PayPal. A cool feature is they don't charge an international fee when using your debit card outside the US. So it's just the straight up exchange rate. The inbweb dotcom website has details but you have to go to a Banorte branch to open the account.


Before you have anything to do with INB please do your homework. There have been some very nasty reports regarding their customer service. Just be careful.


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## PatrickMurtha

pappabee said:


> Before you have anything to do with INB please do your homework. There have been some very nasty reports regarding their customer service. Just be careful.


That is helpful, too. Thanks!


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> ?
> 
> I know from the TEFL websites I post on that there is a huge market for English teachers in South Korea. So how is that working out? Are younger Koreans becoming fluent English-speakers?


To some extent. The grammatical structures of English and Korean are completely dissimilar, and there is no vocabulary overlap, so that makes it challenging. But students start on English in kindergarten, so they have plenty of time to get familar with the language. Some of the kids are eager to give their English a spin at every available opportunity. In my building, there was a middle-schooler in the next apartment who engaged me in a little conversation whenever he saw me, and who seemed quite proud of his idiomatic touches - "That's cool!"

The students at my prepa in Culiacan are confident in their English, but they are mostly upper-crust kids who have traveled extensively, studied abroad, and so on. I suspect that below their rarefied level, the acquisition of English is not as common among Mexican students as it is in Korea. Nor is there anything like the same interest in adult ESL. I taught in an adult English academy in Korea, full of businessmen, housewives, university students on break. They all wanted to practice English all the time. In Culiacan, the Mexican adults who speak English with me have almost invariably lived in the United States for a while, usually in the Southwest - there is quite a back and forth traffic between L.A. (also Tucson) and Culiacan. They speak beautifully, too - so much for the idea that Mexicans in the States don't learn English. But otherwise, English is scarcely the obsession here that it is in Korea.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> Of course, you do mean it as a criticism, but whatever. I freely admit to lacking expertise in many of these matters in only my second year living internationally, and my first few months in a second country. That's why I asked highly specific questions, figuring that there were people on the board who could steer me in a good direction and therefore save me time.
> 
> And yes, it is quite a good job, despite your attempt at snark.


Well, Patrick, as a fellow teacher and expat, one who's lived and worked abroad in a few countries (though never in Asia) over the years, the best advice I can give you is to forget the marvelous banking experiences you had in Korea and concentrate on what you need to do while living in Mexico. After all, you aren't in Kansas (or Korea) anymore  !


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> Well, Patrick, as a fellow teacher and expat, one who's lived and worked abroad in a few countries (though never in Asia) over the years, the best advice I can give you is to forget the marvelous banking experiences you had in Korea and concentrate on what you need to do while living in Mexico. After all, you aren't in Kansas (or Korea) anymore  !


Well, that is what I am trying to do. Most of Korea wasn't as good as the banking, trust me! As I've mentioned, I like Mexico a whole lot better. But whenever a particular situation isn't so good, I try to see if I can improve it, and this message board has already helped me to do that in several instances in Mexico, for which I'm grateful.

My mind is naturally drawn to comparisons to see if I can learn anything from them. Sociology is one of my subjects, so it is inevitable. Of course, whever you make a generalization on the Internet, even a very tentative one, someone slams you and says, "That's not always true!" Of course it's not always true; it's a generalization. It may not even be usually true. But you can't find that out without putting the idea in front of others.

For example, a comparative generalization using cultural stereotypes (I do not mean that word pejoratively) would be to say that Mexicans are less uptight and more relaxed about life than Koreans. A lot of data as well as personal observation would bear that out. I've never seen such an uptight group of human beings as Korean middle and high school students; if even ambitious Mexican high school students (and mine are very ambitious) feel anything akin to the same level of pressure, I certainly can't pick that up by watching them. 

But stereotypes don't always hold, either. A related generalization would be that the relaxed Mexicans are friendlier than the uptight Koreans. I hear it myself all the time in Culiacan -- "We're so friendly here." Hmm, I wouldn't endorse that resoundingly. In Korea, from the get-go, I was constantly asked to "break bread" - I got taken to lunch, to dinner, for drinks, for coffee, over and over. It actually kept my expenses down for a while! In Mexico, contrariwise, I haven't been asked to do that even once, including by my bosses. (My boss in Korea, not my favorite person otherwise, made sure to treat me to lunch and dinner three times during my first month; my recruiter added another lunch.) I don't wish to draw any invidious conclusions, but the patterns surely are interesting.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> Well, that is what I am trying to do. Most of Korea wasn't as good as the banking, trust me! As I've mentioned, I like Mexico a whole lot better. But whenever a particular situation isn't so good, I try to see if I can improve it, and this message board has already helped me to do that in several instances in Mexico, for which I'm grateful.
> 
> My mind is naturally drawn to comparisons to see if I can learn anything from them. Sociology is one of my subjects, so it is inevitable. Of course, whever you make a generalization on the Internet, even a very tentative one, someone slams you and says, "That's not always true!" Of course it's not always true; it's a generalization. It may not even be usually true. But you can't find that out without putting the idea in front of others.
> 
> For example, a comparative generalization using cultural stereotypes (I do not mean that word pejoratively) would be to say that Mexicans are less uptight and more relaxed about life than Koreans. A lot of data as well as personal observation would bear that out. I've never seen such an uptight group of human beings as Korean middle and high school students; if even ambitious Mexican high school students (and mine are very ambitious) feel anything akin to the same level of pressure, I certainly can't pick that up by watching them.
> 
> But stereotypes don't always hold, either. A related generalization would be that the relaxed Mexicans are friendlier than the uptight Koreans. I hear it myself all the time in Culiacan -- "We're so friendly here." Hmm, I wouldn't endorse that resoundingly. In Korea, from the get-go, I was constantly asked to "break bread" - I got taken to lunch, to dinner, for drinks, for coffee, over and over. It actually kept my expenses down for a while! In Mexico, contrariwise, I haven't been asked to do that even once, including by my bosses. (My boss in Korea, not my favorite person otherwise, made sure to treat me to lunch and dinner three times during my first month; my recruiter added another lunch.) I don't wish to draw any invidious conclusions, but the patterns surely are interesting.


Thanks for the informal (and informative) comparative sociological essay. I do have Mexicans invite me out for coffee and meals, though they are usually friends, not professional colleagues. It sounds like the Korean invitations are part of rituals to welcome the new foreign teacher to town, though I suppose one has to beware of invitations that include helping your hosts to practice their English . Did these same people continue to extend invitations to you once that you'd been there for a while?


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for the informal (and informative) comparative sociological essay. I do have Mexicans invite me out for coffee and meals, though they are usually friends, not professional colleagues. It sounds like the Korean invitations are part of rituals to welcome the new foreign teacher to town, though I suppose one has to beware of invitations that include helping your hosts to practice their English . Did these same people continue to extend invitations to you once that you'd been there for a while?


I do believe that there are welcoming rituals, and that eating together is as powerful in Asian cultures as it in Western (and perhaps all) cultures. I know for a fact that part of the impulse for my adult students treating me was gaining additional chances to practice their English; they were even up-front about that. But there was also something palpably genuine and friendly about it in most cases. (I had one woman who made a nuisance of herself about wanting to have coffee every day, but I think in that instance she was also trying to make a sexual conquest of me. Married woman, by the way!) 

The invitations continued at a steady pace during my entire year. I always had new students asking me out, but the old ones would also repeat their invitations on a regular basis. 

Now, my students in Mexico are high schoolers, not adults; I'm aware that skews the sample. But the Mexican institution that hired me - and it is a very good (and large) institution that I am happy to work for - appears to have no welcoming rituals at all, which I find a mite curious. Nor do individuals working within the institution pick up the slack. 

I would add, that Koreans demonstrate a very high level of concern about what the rest of the world, and America in particular, thinks of them; I got asked about that all the time. Hence there is an anxiety to make a good impression, and they strive to do that. I have not noticed a similar anxiety in Mexico. Perhaps part of being more relaxed is being less concerned about the impression you are making? - that would seen to make a certain amount of intuitive sense. It is interesting, of course, because Korea's reputation is generally quite good, and Mexico's is, not to mince words, *horrible*, at least at the moment. My students, less inhibited than adults, will on occasion raise the question of Culiacan's unfortunate reputation with me; Mexican adults will not, and seem nonplussed when I tell them that I like the city (which I genuinely do). 

I wonder - and this means I'm asking - whether educated Mexicans are embarrassed, not so much by the drug trafficking and the gang activity, which could happen anywhere, but by the fact that their country's social institutions have broken down to the point where there doesn't seem to be a shred of trust in government, police, military, courts, none of it.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> I do believe that there are welcoming rituals, and that eating together is as powerful in Asian cultures as it in Western (and perhaps all) cultures. I know for a fact that part of the impulse for my adult students treating me was gaining additional chances to practice their English; they were even up-front about that. But there was also something palpably genuine and friendly about it in most cases. (I had one woman who made a nuisance of herself about wanting to have coffee every day, but I think in that instance she was also trying to make a sexual conquest of me. Married woman, by the way!)
> 
> The invitations continued at a steady pace during my entire year. I always had new students asking me out, but the old ones would also repeat their invitations on a regular basis.
> 
> Now, my students in Mexico are high schoolers, not adults; I'm aware that skews the sample. But the Mexican institution that hired me - and it is a very good (and large) institution that I am happy to work for - appears to have no welcoming rituals at all, which I find a mite curious. Nor do individuals working within the institution pick up the slack.


I wonder if some of the motivation behind the invitations you received while you were living in Korea had to do with the fact that you were not Korean aroused their curiosity, making you worthy of special attention. Did Korean teachers get the same amount of invitations that you did? In Mexico, at least in large cities, foreigners from NOB are not such a rarity, so perhaps don't merit the kind of attention you received in Korea. Not that I'm discounting the warmth and friendliness that your students and others felt for you .


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder if some of the motivation behind the invitations you received while you were living in Korea had to do with the fact that you were not Korean aroused their curiosity, making you worthy of special attention. Did Korean teachers get the same amount of invitations that you did? In Mexico, at least in large cities, foreigners from NOB are not such a rarity, so perhaps don't merit the kind of attention you received in Korea. Not that I'm discounting the warmth and friendliness that your students and others felt for you .


Certainly that is true. Even though there are many Westerners in Korea nowadays, we still have considerable curiosity value. For one thing, some of us look like giants beside the average Korean. I'm 6'2", 210 lbs., and I would notice on a mirrored elevator that I seemed dauntingly large. I got a little tired of standing out so much, actually, and I like the fact that I blend in better in Mexico. I'm pretty Irish-German looking, but of course, there are plenty of Mexicans with Irish and German heritage, particularly here in Sinaloa, so I'm within an ordinary range of variation, and people often address me in Spanish before they realize I'm an American.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> I would add, that Koreans demonstrate a very high level of concern about what the rest of the world, and America in particular, thinks of them; I got asked about that all the time. Hence there is an anxiety to make a good impression, and they strive to do that. I have not noticed a similar anxiety in Mexico. Perhaps part of being more relaxed is being less concerned about the impression you are making? - that would seen to make a certain amount of intuitive sense. It is interesting, of course, because Korea's reputation is generally quite good, and Mexico's is, not to mince words, *horrible*, at least at the moment. My students, less inhibited than adults, will on occasion raise the question of Culiacan's unfortunate reputation with me; Mexican adults will not, and seem nonplussed when I tell them that I like the city (which I genuinely do).
> 
> I wonder - and this means I'm asking - whether educated Mexicans are embarrassed, not so much by the drug trafficking and the gang activity, which could happen anywhere, but by the fact that their country's social institutions have broken down to the point where there doesn't seem to be a shred of trust in government, police, military, courts, none of it.


One feature of the Mexican public personality is the tendency to emphasize the positive, to avoid saying "no", especially to people you are not on intimate terms with. The most mundane example is if you ask a stranger on the street for directions to a certain place, if he doesn't know, rather than saying that he can't help you, he is quite likely to give you helpful, but erroneous, directions. Taking that a step further, I think that most adult Mexicans will not criticize their city or country in the company of a relative stranger, especially a foreigner, and, in particular, a foreigner who comes from the US, a country with which Mexico has had many unfortunate experiences over the centuries. This doesn't mean that they don't discuss the matters you mention among themselves.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> Certainly that is true. Even though there are many Westerners in Korea nowadays, we still have considerable curiosity value. For one thing, some of us look like giants beside the average Korean. I'm 6'2", 210 lbs., and I would notice on a mirrored elevator that I seemed dauntingly large. I got a little tired of standing out so much, actually, and I like the fact that I blend in better in Mexico. I'm pretty Irish-German looking, but of course, there are plenty of Mexicans with Irish and German heritage, particularly here in Sinaloa, so I'm within an ordinary range of variation, and people often address me in Spanish before they realize I'm an American.


Isn't that nice? Not to be taken on sight as a foreigner. I've always been able to fit in here visually since I'm short and had dark hair when I was younger. Of course, my fair skin makes it clear that I could be a foreigner but not necessarily. I still enjoy being stopped on the street in my neighborhood and asked for directions to the bank or a local eatery because that means that I look like I live here, which I do!


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> One feature of the Mexican public personality is the tendency to emphasize the positive, to avoid saying "no", especially to people you are not on intimate terms with. The most mundane example is if you ask a stranger on the street for directions to a certain place, if he doesn't know, rather than saying that he can't help you, he is quite likely to give you helpful, but erroneous, directions. Taking that a step further, I think that most adult Mexicans will not criticize their city or country in the company of a relative stranger, especially a foreigner, and, in particular, a foreigner who comes from the US, a country with which Mexico has had many unfortunate experiences over the centuries. This doesn't mean that they don't discuss the matters you mention among themselves.


I'm quite sure that they do. I realize that, as an expat, and especially one with linguistic limitations - I learn to read languages much more readily than I learn to speak or understand them - I will always be on the ouside, usually *way* on the outside, of any socially meaningful conversation. I am much less optimistic about cross-cultural communications than I was before I lived abroad; I think most cross-cultural communications are rather superficial. People don't easily open up with those they don't share background with - me neither, I hasten to add - and without that shared background, the meaningful range of communication is rather small (although it's somewhat better for the trans-national educated class, who share certain types of experiences and an interest in specific topics). By "background," I don't just mean nationality, but a whole host of factors. 

But it's all OK, because I didn't really come here to socialize, but to live my own quiet life inexpensively in a warm, sunny climate. Mexico allows me to do that. I've got a nice apartment in a nice neighborhhood, two wonderful young cats that I adopted when I arrived, and a teaching position that looks like it could be stable for a number of years. I'm close enough to retirement (53) that I can contemplate finishing out my career here and then staying in Mexico for my golden years. Life is good.


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> I'm quite sure that they do. I realize that, as an expat, and especially one with linguistic limitations - I learn to read languages much more readily than I learn to speak or understand them - I will always be on the ouside, usually *way* on the outside, of any socially meaningful conversation. I am much less optimistic about cross-cultural communications than I was before I lived abroad; I think most cross-cultural communications are rather superficial. People don't easily open up with those they don't share background with - me neither, I hasten to add - and without that shared background, the meaningful range of communication is rather small (although it's somewhat better for the trans-national educated class, who share certain types of experiences and an interest in specific topics). By "background," I don't just mean nationality, but a whole host of factors.
> 
> But it's all OK, because I didn't really come here to socialize, but to live my own quiet life inexpensively in a warm, sunny climate. Mexico allows me to do that. I've got a nice apartment in a nice neighborhhood, two wonderful young cats that I adopted when I arrived, and a teaching position that looks like it could be stable for a number of years. I'm close enough to retirement (53) that I can contemplate finishing out my career here and then staying in Mexico for my golden years. Life is good.


If you don't eventually improve your command of spoken Spanish and begin to make some Mexican friends, you will miss out on a great deal. It can take time, but it is possible for meaningful communication to take place between Mexicans and the foreigners in their midst. I understand your appreciation of the generally benign Mexican climate (one of many reasons I ended up retiring here) and your nice apartment, but ultimately the Mexican people are the reason life can be good here for expats like you and me, and many others.


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## DNP

PatrickMurtha said:


> I'm quite sure that they do. I realize that, as an expat, and especially one with linguistic limitations - I learn to read languages much more readily than I learn to speak or understand them - I will always be on the ouside, usually way on the outside, of any socially meaningful conversation. I am much less optimistic about cross-cultural communications than I was before I lived abroad; I think most cross-cultural communications are rather superficial. People don't easily open up with those they don't share background with - me neither, I hasten to add - and without that shared background, the meaningful range of communication is rather small (although it's somewhat better for the trans-national educated class, who share certain types of experiences and an interest in specific topics). By "background," I don't just mean nationality, but a whole host of factors.
> 
> But it's all OK, because I didn't really come here to socialize, but to live my own quiet life inexpensively in a warm, sunny climate. Mexico allows me to do that. I've got a nice apartment in a nice neighborhhood, two wonderful young cats that I adopted when I arrived, and a teaching position that looks like it could be stable for a number of years. I'm close enough to retirement (53) that I can contemplate finishing out my career here and then staying in Mexico for my golden years. Life is good.


Sounds good to me, and congratulations. Others seek would you have found. What's not to like?

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


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