# Losing a job



## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

I may be getting laid off from my job. It will only be clear on Sunday.

I understand that if that will be the case I should get a Certificate of No Objection (CNO) to be able to work for another company in the UAE.

Any advise on getting the CNO in connection with getting fired or any other information that you might have regarding how to handle dealing with a letter of termination letter (which I have not yet signed) from an employer in the UAE would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Zayets


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Getting fired*

Does anyone have any advice on the best procedure for handling getting fired in the UAE? First of all I am not used to getting fired in general and second this is my first job in the UAE.

This might be happening tomorrow!.......therefore (please) some advice would be appreciated!



Zayets said:


> I may be getting laid off from my job. It will only be clear on Sunday.
> 
> I understand that if that will be the case I should get a Certificate of No Objection (CNO) to be able to work for another company in the UAE.
> 
> ...


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

What are your intentions? You want to stay from your first message. Have you begun looking for a position? Is the field your in going to be easy to find and secure another job? As well, are the accomodations tied to your current job? Do you have savings to weather thru a few months of no job? I would assume that they are going to fly you back home and be done with you and if you decline it and stay, your going to have to find your own way back home if you dont take their ticket in the beginning.


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## dizzyizzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Hi Zayets,

Sorry to hear. I have no experience on this either (thank goodness) so this is more general advice, but my recomendation would be to try to negotiate a severance payment depending on your contract terms, also if you are planning to stay in Dubai to look for jobs, ask the company if they are willing to not cancel your visa yet until you've found a new job. Luckly for you you can do visa runs (some of us can't) but is a hassle. Also get the mentioned NOC from the employer, if they are terminating you for circumstances out of your control (company downsizing, etc), they should be willing to give you the letter, which you will need to find a new job. And lastly, I would also run quickly to the bank and withdraw all my savings! As I've read from different sources that once a company terminates you they are obliged to inform your bank so they will freeze your funds in case there is outstanding debt with them. I would withdraw ALL my money even if you do not owe them anything, just in case. 

As for finding a new job I think things are starting to pick up now (slowly) so just update your CV and hit every single recruitment agency and job website under the sun, networking is also very important.

Best of lucks


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Thanks for your Reply*

Thanks for your Reply,

We will see hpw things play out today.



Jynxgirl said:


> What are your intentions? You want to stay from your first message. Have you begun looking for a position? Is the field your in going to be easy to find and secure another job? As well, are the accomodations tied to your current job? Do you have savings to weather thru a few months of no job? I would assume that they are going to fly you back home and be done with you and if you decline it and stay, your going to have to find your own way back home if you dont take their ticket in the beginning.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Thanks for your Reply*

Thanks for your Reply,

We will see hpw things play out today.

QUOTE=dizzyizzy;267504]Hi Zayets,

Sorry to hear. I have no experience on this either (thank goodness) so this is more general advice, but my recomendation would be to try to negotiate a severance payment depending on your contract terms, also if you are planning to stay in Dubai to look for jobs, ask the company if they are willing to not cancel your visa yet until you've found a new job. Luckly for you you can do visa runs (some of us can't) but is a hassle. Also get the mentioned NOC from the employer, if they are terminating you for circumstances out of your control (company downsizing, etc), they should be willing to give you the letter, which you will need to find a new job. And lastly, I would also run quickly to the bank and withdraw all my savings! As I've read from different sources that once a company terminates you they are obliged to inform your bank so they will freeze your funds in case there is outstanding debt with them. I would withdraw ALL my money even if you do not owe them anything, just in case. 

As for finding a new job I think things are starting to pick up now (slowly) so just update your CV and hit every single recruitment agency and job website under the sun, networking is also very important.

Best of lucks[/QUOTE]


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

To follow on from Dizzyizzy's comments.

It is standard practice for most banks to put a temporary freeze on an account when they received the final salary advice from an employer. The final payment will be marked as such. If you have no outstanding debts (loans or credit cards) the ban will be lifted almost immediately.

-


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Termination letter*

Things are still up in the air.

If there is no way to resolve the situation and there is a termination letter put in front of me to sign, then how does that work?

I mean I don't know what employee rights exist here? Should I refuse to sign the letter? Or should I sign the letter (but it should be in some format)??

Would be great to read your comments.

Zayets



Elphaba said:


> To follow on from Dizzyizzy's comments.
> 
> It is standard practice for most banks to put a temporary freeze on an account when they received the final salary advice from an employer. The final payment will be marked as such. If you have no outstanding debts (loans or credit cards) the ban will be lifted almost immediately.
> 
> -


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

An employer has the right to terminate your employment at any time, assuming you are on an unlimited contract. It doesn't matter what you sign. Presumably your contract stipulates a one month notice period, so you can either be asked to leave immediately to work for one month. At the end of the notice period you will be paid your final salary, plus end of service gratuity (provided you have been in the job for over a year). The employer can then cancel your visa immediately.

If you think you will be made redundant, your priority is to start looking for an alternative immediately, as everything here hinges upon having a residency visa/work permit.

Good luck.

-


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*termination letter*

I am in my probation period (I have only in Dubai and been working for the company since the middle of Feb, when I moved out from Russia) and according to the contract I can be dismissed with one days notice within the probationary period.

I haven't signed the termination letter because it was delivered to me through a 3rd party (our company CFO). I told him that if the owner (CEO) wants to fire me, and have me sign the letter (says dismissed due to "Unsatisfactory Performance") then he will need to speak to me in person and listen to what I have to say (what he is doing is actually counterproductive to his business). The thing is the COO who I work with on a daily basis is happy with my work. The CEO owner of the company is out of the picture as he hasn't been in the office. I do feel quite confident that when we will meet in person then a clear understanding of the situation can be reached and we can move beyond this. At the very least if he is going to fire me he needs to *&!%*@# Man up and do it in person!




Elphaba said:


> An employer has the right to terminate your employment at any time, assuming you are on an unlimited contract. It doesn't matter what you sign. Presumably your contract stipulates a one month notice period, so you can either be asked to leave immediately to work for one month. At the end of the notice period you will be paid your final salary, plus end of service gratuity (provided you have been in the job for over a year). The employer can then cancel your visa immediately.
> 
> If you think you will be made redundant, your priority is to start looking for an alternative immediately, as everything here hinges upon having a residency visa/work permit.
> 
> ...


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Sorry, but if you are still on probabtion then they can let you go at any time, without notice, or even an explanation.

-


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## Free_Spirit (Aug 30, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Sorry, but if you are still on probabtion then they can let you go at any time, without notice, or even an explanation.
> 
> -


To add to what Elphaba said, I don't recommend you to make fights when you leave. Do it in peace. Most of employers even if they terminate the employee give a positive feedback if asked by a next employer. If you make fights you will most probably have difficulties to get another job as HR people love to call previous job HR and check on the candidate.

Be wise and accept the fact. If you want to fight for your job do it in a smart way without @#$#%@^@$^


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Termination letter*

Yes, you are right Ella, fighting would not be logical (the #%*! was just my own feeling as I do not respect people who avoid doing difficult things in person because they are cowards, I find it to be disrespectful) I am simply being firm on being able to speak with the CEO-Owner (and I am supported in this by the COO who thinks it is a bad idea and unjustified to fire me). I have been cooperative, I have handed back in my Blackberry yesterday (after all the Blackberry is not my property, while on the other hand my signature* IS* is "owned" by me), I am being cool under fire....however I will only sign the letter after meeting him in person after that we will either come to some understanding (because I believe there is a misunderstanding about many things) or we will part ways. If we part ways then I will ask if they cannot cancel my visa, especially as my wife is a Russian passport holder who is under the sponsorship of my residency visa (which is under the sponsorship of my employer) for my wife it will not be the same as for me (British and US passports) as far as making a "Visa run" to Oman.



Ella_and_Yousef said:


> To add to what Elphaba said, I don't recommend you to make fights when you leave. Do it in peace. Most of employers even if they terminate the employee give a positive feedback if asked by a next employer. If you make fights you will most probably have difficulties to get another job as HR people love to call previous job HR and check on the candidate.
> 
> Be wise and accept the fact. If you want to fight for your job do it in a smart way without @#$#%@^@$^


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## jimmyjnas (Feb 21, 2008)

I haven't signed the termination letter because it was delivered to me through a 3rd party (our company CFO). I told him that if the owner (CEO) wants to fire me, and have me sign the letter (says dismissed due to "Unsatisfactory Performance") then he will need to speak to me in person and listen to what I have to say (what he is doing is actually counterproductive to his business). The thing is the COO who I work with on a daily basis is happy with my work. The CEO owner of the company is out of the picture as he hasn't been in the office. I do feel quite confident that when we will meet in person then a clear understanding of the situation can be reached and we can move beyond this. At the very least if he is going to fire me he needs to *&!%*@# Man up and do it in person![/QUOTE]

this actually did happen to me! It is unlikely that meetinf the CEO will help unfortunately...... These decision made in Dubai are rarely for the reasons given.

Feel free to message me for more info and advice on how to cope. It was very hard for me to start but now i am settled in another career!


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## Free_Spirit (Aug 30, 2009)

Zayets said:


> Yes, you are right Ella, fighting would not be logical (the #%*! was just my own feeling as I do not respect people who avoid doing difficult things in person because they are cowards, I find it to be disrespectful) I am simply being firm on being able to speak with the CEO-Owner (and I am supported in this by the COO who thinks it is a bad idea and unjustified to fire me). I have been cooperative, I have handed back in my Blackberry yesterday (after all the Blackberry is not my property, while on the other hand my signature* IS* is "owned" by me), I am being cool under fire....however I will only sign the letter after meeting him in person after that we will either come to some understanding (because I believe there is a misunderstanding about many things) or we will part ways. If we part ways then I will ask if they cannot cancel my visa, especially as my wife is a Russian passport holder who is under the sponsorship of my residency visa (which is under the sponsorship of my employer) for my wife it will not be the same as for me (British and US passports) as far as making a "Visa run" to Oman.


I understand your feelings very well, but unfortunately CEO's are most of the time not as humanistic as we expect, they don't always go down to the level of employee and if the decision was taken by HR to terminate, they don't interfere. Save yourself headache and start looking for something else + don't forget to ask HR to support you with recommendation letter. I don't think they will say NO especially if you didn't do anything criminal to the company.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Termination letter*

Hello Ella,

The company is not so large that we have an HR Dept or even person. 

I work closely with the COO who is supportive of my work and thinks that firing me is unwarranted and also bad for the company as a whole. I am waiting for the COO to speak with the CEO and then would like to meet the CEO after they speak together, I do believe that if logic prevails I will be able to continue to work in the company, however I do see that with the CEO things being done impulsively without any information and in a chaotic way.....so we shall see.....




Ella_and_Yousef said:


> I understand your feelings very well, but unfortunately CEO's are most of the time not as humanistic as we expect, they don't always go down to the level of employee and if the decision was taken by HR to terminate, they don't interfere. Save yourself headache and start looking for something else + don't forget to ask HR to support you with recommendation letter. I don't think they will say NO especially if you didn't do anything criminal to the company.


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## dizzyizzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Good luck Zayets,

I agree that would be on your best interest to keep things nice an reasonable under the circumstances, and see if they can accomodate your request of delaying your visa cancellation until you find a new job, and get a NOC letter and hopefully some termination moneys.

And focus focus focus on the next job 

Good luck


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

I understand your frustrations and anger however, I don't think that the COO would be willing to speak to the CEO for the simple reason that he doesn't want to upset the boss himself and place himself in the firing line. I may be wrong but most of us turn coward despite all our earlier praises when it comes to speaking up and defending others, particularly when the boss is sacking people for no reason. I have come across someone here who was fired for the most ridiculous reason; to this date I still don't get how this could have been a sackable offence. However, when CEOs make up their mind, it's very difficult to change it.

If you are able to meet with him, remember to keep your cool. Try and meet him halfway and propose that he extends your probation period and give you the chance to improve on your performance. This will force him to also explain elements of your performance that he finds unacceptable. It might be that there are areas that you need to improve on (or maybe not) but you still need him to point those out. Regardless of the outcome of that meeting, feedback is still very important, even if you will undoubtedly not agree with them. It will give you a certain peace of mind because there is nothing worse than not knowing why things go wrong. 

Remain calm throughout the meeting. Understandable you will probably want to curse him or worse but your behaviour should be the proof that he is wrong, regardless of whether he admits to that or not. If all fails, try to negotiate a grace period for the cancellation of your visa to give you a bit of time to find a new job. Also, it would be worth to secure a reference at the time of leaving, if he is willing to provide a good one - he might change his mind later on! And importantly, as has already been noted, make sure that you walk away with an NOC - the more reason to remain calm because whether you end up with a ban or an NOC really depends on him.

I really hope that you are able to get a meeting and that the CEO sees things your way. On the other side, you also need to ask yourself whether you really want to work for a Company that behaves in such a manner. I hope it all goes well for you.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Termination letter*

Thanks Mazz,

You make a lot of good points. COO is on my side but most likely won't risk their own job in any sort of disagreement.....seems to be a very totalitarian set up.

Really at this point I would just like the thing to be done with one way or the other.........the thing that made my blood boil is not if he is unhappy with something or even if he wants to fire me, it's him trying to do it through a 3rd person IMHO that way of doing it is for chicken%*#@&....I've also been a CEO before and if I fire somebody who reports to me I do it myself.

By the way what is the legal significance of my signature on the termination letter does it mean that from the moment I sign it I am officially no longer employed there or is that retroactive to last Thursday when the 3rd party (CFO) asked for my signature on behalf of the CEO.



Maz25 said:


> I understand your frustrations and anger however, I don't think that the COO would be willing to speak to the CEO for the simple reason that he doesn't want to upset the boss himself and place himself in the firing line. I may be wrong but most of us turn coward despite all our earlier praises when it comes to speaking up and defending others, particularly when the boss is sacking people for no reason. I have come across someone here who was fired for the most ridiculous reason; to this date I still don't get how this could have been a sackable offence. However, when CEOs make up their mind, it's very difficult to change it.
> 
> If you are able to meet with him, remember to keep your cool. Try and meet him halfway and propose that he extends your probation period and give you the chance to improve on your performance. This will force him to also explain elements of your performance that he finds unacceptable. It might be that there are areas that you need to improve on (or maybe not) but you still need him to point those out. Regardless of the outcome of that meeting, feedback is still very important, even if you will undoubtedly not agree with them. It will give you a certain peace of mind because there is nothing worse than not knowing why things go wrong.
> 
> ...


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

I understand where you're coming from. I've been made redundant before and my cowardly boss waited until the day I was due to go on leave and then he sent someone else to tell me. He sat in on the meeting but said absolutely nothing except for one ridiculous suggestion (for which I am still cursing him!). Good thing I didn't need a reference from him as it would turn out, a few days later, I went back to the office to collect my stuff, bumped into the _ _ _ _ and told him exactly what I thought of him. To say the least, it was a double celebration when I got a new job and in the same month, he went bust and then, being the coward that he is, did a runner!

It really is irrelevant as to who provides you with the termination letter. Once you sign it, the terms of the letter becomes binding on yourself and your employer. If the letter states that you have to leave at the end of that day, then unfortunately this is what you will have to do. The law is heavily against the employee here! Sad but unfortunately very true and the worse thing is that, for most of us, we do not realise just how heavily the law is weighed against us until we go through these unfortunate and rather depressing situations.

This may not be what you want right now but everything happens for a reason. This unfortunate situation may open the doors to new opportunities that you would have otherwise ignored. When I was made redundant, I got offered a job that I thought I would not be able to do. Took the job out of sheer desperation, hated it at first but today, I'm quite happy in my job. I work in an area of construction that before I did not even think I would get a chance to do nor that I would be capable of doing it (to say the least 3 years ago, I would not even have given jobs in that field a second glance!. Not necessarily what you want to hear right now and I for one have silently cursed people who have given me the 'everything happens for a reason' speech but given time, good things can come out of bad situations and experiences.

Good luck with everything.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

I am going to take it all as it comes and not moan and groan......the door is still open with my former employer in Russia as they said they would welcome me back anytime when I left to take this job, however I will stick around here for a while as I have paid my rent already for the next 2 months and if I find something here (or in Qatar, Bahrain or Oman or even somewhere else I haven't thought of....but rather not to KSA..) then I would be happy to stay here in the Middle East.

I will go to the office tomorrow if the CEO is there to meet me (hopefully he doesn't go into "hiding") and it will go one way or another, if he still wants me to go then I would sign a letter of termination, naturally I think the letter should be from tomorrow, however he probably will want the letter to be from Thursday (meaning with one days notice that Sunday would have been my last day).




Maz25 said:


> I understand where you're coming from. I've been made redundant before and my cowardly boss waited until the day I was due to go on leave and then he sent someone else to tell me. He sat in on the meeting but said absolutely nothing except for one ridiculous suggestion (for which I am still cursing him!). Good thing I didn't need a reference from him as it would turn out, a few days later, I went back to the office to collect my stuff, bumped into the _ _ _ _ and told him exactly what I thought of him. To say the least, it was a double celebration when I got a new job and in the same month, he went bust and then, being the coward that he is, did a runner!
> 
> It really is irrelevant as to who provides you with the termination letter. Once you sign it, the terms of the letter becomes binding on yourself and your employer. If the letter states that you have to leave at the end of that day, then unfortunately this is what you will have to do. The law is heavily against the employee here! Sad but unfortunately very true and the worse thing is that, for most of us, we do not realise just how heavily the law is weighed against us until we go through these unfortunate and rather depressing situations.
> 
> ...


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## Muhannad (Mar 22, 2010)

Zayets to me it's very simple: 

*Being strictly professional: *

1. If the CFO has the authority to terminate you, then you have no right in refusing to sign the termination letter. 

2. You can still "request" to meet the CEO before signing , can be granted as a favour, but again it is not a right. In the professional sense, you need to accept that ultimately you do not have the right not sign based on not granting that request.

*What is the learning? What can you do better next time?*

1. Agree with your future employer a specific perfomance criteria including targets.
2. Sign-off at the beginning your goals and targets with your employer/boss. 
3. Do a pefomance review at the end of your probabtion/ stint VS the specific targets. 
*4. NEVER JOIN A COMPANY THAT DOES NOT HAVE A SPECIFC & MEASURED PERFORMANCE APPRAISAL SYSTEM *

From what I read this company that terminated you is not professional: 

1. "Unsatifactory Performance" has to be a result of a specific appriasal signed by you and your boss. 
2. The COO, your boss, is powerless in helping you keep your job or supporting your position.
3. CFO , the person authorized to fire you, does it regardless of your manager's input.
4. Given the point above, would you really wanna work for this company? Wouldn't be naive to assume that similar issues will not surface in the future?


My advise, request to meet the CEO, but if not granted sign the termination, although I do not think it makes a difference whether you sign or not. 
Try to leave with a good reputation, ideally with the required creditionals to continue working in UAE, and apply the learnings in the future.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*termination letter*

Yes, Muhannad:

The company is run in a weird chaotic way although not in all aspects as they do know their core business and have good marketing etc...No the thing that is messed up is the lack of a systematic approach, unstructured communication and organization and lack of knowledge of how business development works.

As far as the authority to fire me the CFO has is not the person who signed the termination letter and it is the CEO who does it, therefore while I don't hold anything against the CFO for "delivering" the letter (he doesn't want his #@@ fired for refusing to do so) I do disrespect the CEO for not doing it on his own as it is clearly stated in the letter that he is "unsatisfied with my performance".

By the way no disrespect to your home country of KSA ( I have met some nice Saudi's) would like to visit sometime (actually I was supposed to be going there on business in April).......just wouldn't want to live there with the restrictive environment.

Zayets




Muhannad said:


> Zayets to me it's very simple:
> 
> *Being strictly professional: *
> 
> ...


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## Muhannad (Mar 22, 2010)

Zayets said:


> Yes, Muhannad:
> 
> The company is run in a weird chaotic way although not in all aspects as they do know their core business and have good marketing etc...No the thing that is messed up is the lack of a systematic approach, unstructured communication and organization and lack of knowledge of how business development works.
> 
> As far as the authority to fire me the CFO has is not the person who signed the termination letter and it is the CEO who does it, therefore while I don't hold anything against the CFO for "delivering" the letter (he doesn't want his #@@ fired for refusing to do so) I do disrespect the CEO for not doing it on his own as it is clearly stated in the letter that he is "unsatisfied with my performance".


More reasons to not hold on to the company. Respecting/disrespecting is a personal feeling and should professionally not be a factor in whether you sign/not sign the letter. Handling official documents is strictly within the guidelines of the organization. Anyways %@T$ them 



> By the way no disrespect to your home country of KSA ( I have met some nice Saudi's) would like to visit sometime (actually I was supposed to be going there on business in April).......just wouldn't want to live there with the restrictive environment.


Not sure who suggested that you should or should not live in Saudi or how that relates to respect or disrespect? Or how it's relevant to knowing nice/horrible saudies? Or how it relates to the subject in any sense? lol

I wouldn't live in france not because I disrespect the french ( killer fries btw ) but because I simply do not speak french and hate cold whether  

anyways leaving that aside I hope I was able to help.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*KSA comment*

Yes, it was helpful, thanks Muhannad.

KSA comment was in regards to what I wrote earlier in the thread... about being open to jobs in other countries but rather not in KSA.

Cheers,

Zayets

The company is run in a weird chaotic way although not in all aspects as they do know their core business and have good marketing etc...No the thing that is messed up is the lack of a systematic approach, unstructured communication and organization and lack of knowledge of how business development works.

As far as the authority to fire me the CFO has is not the person who signed the termination letter and it is the CEO who does it, therefore while I don't hold anything against the CFO for "delivering" the letter (he doesn't want his #@@ fired for refusing to do so) I do disrespect the CEO for not doing it on his own as it is clearly stated in the letter that he is "unsatisfied with my performance".

By the way no disrespect to your home country of KSA ( I have met some nice Saudi's) would like to visit sometime (actually I was supposed to be going there on business in April).......just wouldn't want to live there with the restrictive environment.

Zayets





Muhannad said:


> More reasons to not hold on to the company. Respecting/disrespecting is a personal feeling and should professionally not be a factor in whether you sign/not sign the letter. Handling official documents is strictly within the guidelines of the organization. Anyways %@T$ them
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Meeting with the CEO*

I met with the CEO today. It turns out he wants to fire me for reasons totally unrelated to "unsatisfactory performance" (as per the "Termination" letter). He said that I had been doing a good job doing business development and been very active in geeting contracts out to clients but that he now sees that the market sectors (which are new for the company)I have been asked to develop are not going to give the company the revenue he expected (as the market is not good and the clients expect us to work on lower rates then before the crisis). I have a less pessimistic view as I have been more directly involved with the situation, anyhow we agreed that I will send him a forcast tomorrow for the business sectors I have been working on.

I am going to do the forcast and meet him tomorrow evening. I still don't believe the forcast will change his mind as he seems to be pessemistic and also even though the meeting didn't go badly I no longer have full trust in this guy as he tried to fire me for differnt reasons then what he is saying now and as well tried to avoid doing the "dirty work" by having another person give me the termination letter... 

If he wants me to continue working after looking at the forcast then I will keep doing my job and if he choses to lay me off then I am not very happy about it as I have moved both myself and my wife out to Dubai at considerable expense :-((



Zayets said:


> Yes, it was helpful, thanks Muhannad.
> 
> KSA comment was in regards to what I wrote earlier in the thread... about being open to jobs in other countries but rather not in KSA.
> 
> ...


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## Muhannad (Mar 22, 2010)

I hope this forecast crap is not just him stalling....Anyways best of luck...

But it seems that you can still look around for jobs if these guys are decent enough 2 let u do so.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Forcast*

Yes, it may be some kind of stalling and as well I don't like the fact that this termination letter is from March 25th as it would seem to me that doing this forcast for him is work and I should be paid for it as well !!



Muhannad said:


> I hope this forecast crap is not just him stalling....Anyways best of luck...
> 
> But it seems that you can still look around for jobs if these guys are decent enough 2 let u do so.


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## Lenochka (Apr 19, 2008)

Well...you haven't signed the termination letter, have you ? Therefore it needs to be re-issued with proper dates, should the decision be held to fire you. 
good luck !


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*forecast*

Of course you are right they should put in new dates as I am not working (doing this forecast today) on my birthday for free! 

On the other hand he insisted I work on this forecast from home and not at the office (where my laptop was taken away)……probably to avoid paying me beyond the dates on that letter (issued on the 25th).



Lenochka said:


> Well...you haven't signed the termination letter, have you ? Therefore it needs to be re-issued with proper dates, should the decision be held to fire you.
> good luck !


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

I am going to say because he doesn't care what your forecast is and you were arguing for your job and that you could show that there was profit to be made. They had the letter, it was presented to you, and you didnt sign it. But its already been presented. From an HR background prospective in positions I have held, we would of documented it and considered you terminated. 

I hope you are job hunting.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Jynxgirl said:


> I am going to say because he doesn't care what your forecast is and you were arguing for your job and that you could show that there was profit to be made. They had the letter, it was presented to you, and you didnt sign it. But its already been presented. From an HR background prospective in positions I have held, we would of documented it and considered you terminated.
> 
> I hope you are job hunting.


I agree with you. I think the guy is simply trying to get some work done for free and if the information is good, he may use it but that would not mean that Zayets is not fired. 

I personally think that in a situation like this, it is better to walk away. If the guy wants a forecast, then he needs to at least extend the probation period by say, another three months, and give Zayets the opportunity to prove him wrong and show that there is indeed money to be made. I would not go so far as to make myself appear desperate to convince him of anything because what he is doing is playing you! The guy has already lied once; he could have been honest and I am confused as to why someone would stoop so low as to give you a totally inaccurate termination letter, which could work against you (a lot of companies ask for a copy of the termination letter). In my opinion, this is merely a case of redundancy where the company's outlook/ business plan has changed and consequently certain positions are made redundant as there is no longer a need for them - very different to unsatisfactory performance!

Try and get the letter changed to reflect the true reason for the termination and walk away. I understand that you have moved at great expense but if the trust is no longer there, this partnership will not work. You will always be suspicious of the boss and he will be aware of this and in turn always have doubts as to whether to keep you on or not. This will never be a healthy relationship for anyone. You may be different but I would have great difficulty looking past the betrayal even if things were to work out fine and that automatically would have affected my performance and motivation levels.

Best of luck.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Forecast and letter*

Maz,

Could be you are right, I did the forecast today ,but didn't send it, since we were supposed to meet at 6PM and at 4 the CFO told me that we would have to postpone it until Monday as the CEO has had to fly to another country:

Also didn't mention that the other day they did change the letter to the following (better) one:

Dear Mr. Zayets, 
Please find below your termination letter , since you have refused to acknowledge on Thursday, 25 March 2010. 
March 25, 2010
Mr. Zayets 
Company XXXXX, Dubai
Subject : Termination 
Dear Mr. Zayets 
This is to inform you that your employment with Company XXXX has been terminated from today, immediate effect. 
Thank you for your time at our company and best of luck to you in future. 
Sincerely 
Mr. &%*@>?#! 
Chief Executive Officer 
I Mr. Zayets have read, understood the above. 
Name : Mr. Zayets
Date:___________________________________
Signature:_______________________________






Maz25 said:


> I agree with you. I think the guy is simply trying to get some work done for free and if the information is good, he may use it but that would not mean that Zayets is not fired.
> 
> I personally think that in a situation like this, it is better to walk away. If the guy wants a forecast, then he needs to at least extend the probation period by say, another three months, and give Zayets the opportunity to prove him wrong and show that there is indeed money to be made. I would not go so far as to make myself appear desperate to convince him of anything because what he is doing is playing you! The guy has already lied once; he could have been honest and I am confused as to why someone would stoop so low as to give you a totally inaccurate termination letter, which could work against you (a lot of companies ask for a copy of the termination letter). In my opinion, this is merely a case of redundancy where the company's outlook/ business plan has changed and consequently certain positions are made redundant as there is no longer a need for them - very different to unsatisfactory performance!
> 
> ...


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## Muhannad (Mar 22, 2010)

dude their mind is pretty much made up...just walk out of it...they're not even worthy of a forecast


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*loose cannon CEO*

Yes, it is a pity because I like the people I work with and I like the work I do and see that there is business to be had, however the CEO is pessimistic about the business and wants to give up without giving it our best shot...plus he is extremely impulsive and unstructured. When I was headhunted for the job and had my interview, he did throw up a bit of a red flag in my mind but I decided to not be judgmental and thought things would work out. I guess I should have trusted my instincts.

Even if I do stay it will only be until I find another place run with a normal mgmt. style as now I am hearing about some other horror stories from the past and really don't want to be in a sczophrenic environment. 

More likely we will part ways and I will try to get the best deal I can.




Muhannad said:


> dude their mind is pretty much made up...just walk out of it...they're not even worthy of a forecast


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## Sumair (Aug 16, 2008)

Dear Zayets, 

I am very sorry to read about your dismissal from job... but you must aware that currently the thing is going like this every where.. 


coming to legal rights and actions, note that your ex-company is not legally bound to provide you NOC for switching job. NOC is also issued in favor of your new employer and unfortunately you donot have any. 

You will get salary upto the time of resignation and one way ticket to your country. Legally you are allowed to live one month after the cancellation of visa but it depends on your company if they wanted to send next day after cancellation of visa they can send you back.


The reason why they are not putting financial reason to fire you is because of laws that may give you benefits if they put lack of business or financial resources in your termination letter. ( But these laws are also not clear and straight forward and there is only a chance that the employee may benefit.)


I hope very best for your future !






Zayets said:


> Yes, it is a pity because I like the people I work with and I like the work I do and see that there is business to be had, however the CEO is pessimistic about the business and wants to give up without giving it our best shot...plus he is extremely impulsive and unstructured. When I was headhunted for the job and had my interview, he did throw up a bit of a red flag in my mind but I decided to not be judgmental and thought things would work out. I guess I should have trusted my instincts.
> 
> Even if I do stay it will only be until I find another place run with a normal mgmt. style as now I am hearing about some other horror stories from the past and really don't want to be in a sczophrenic environment.
> 
> More likely we will part ways and I will try to get the best deal I can.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Termination*

Dear Sumir,

Thank you for your kind words.

You mentioned that the employer must pay for an air ticket but I think that they only have to do it after one year of working for them and I am still in the probation period. Do you have some other information?

My problem is that the CEO was really interested in having a kind of "feasibility study" on developing business in industry sectors outside of those they currently worked with. When he saw that the margins were not as he had expected (due to strong competition) he decided to stop the project and send me the termination letter through a 3rd party (which I found to be rather cowardly). Now if I would have known that it was more of a "market research-feasibility" situation I would have kept the apartment I was renting in Moscow and not shipped all my things out at my own expense.

There is no longer anyway we will work together as he does not want to develop other business sectors (which is his right as a company owner) and from my side I can see that he is "flakey” and do not want to work for him.

Therefore I am going to try to get the best deal I can by sending him an e-mail and waiting for his response before signing his termination letter. I will ask for:

1).Severance (whatever he would offer) seeing as he has put me and my wife who just arrived here in a bad situation financially as well as emotionally due to his 180 degree turn, especially as he has told me that I did my job very well and that his decision is based on the margins of the business sectors I was focused on and not on anything which is my fault. I don't expect that I will get anything since I am in my probation period but his conscience may make him feel that he should do something.

2). Recommendation letter (as he has said that I did a good job).

3). Extend my visa since my wife is here on my sponsorship and I am sponsored by the company. If he doesn't I suppose I can just go to Oman and get a 30 day visit visa on my UK passport (I would like to stay until mid May as I have already paid for an apartment here in Dubai until that time). My wife is a Russian citizen so I am not sure that it will be so easy for her to do the same by going to Oman.

4), The NOC letter, would be nice for me being able to get a job in the UAE, although I am also going to search for opportunities in other countries in the Middle East as well as Europe and Asia.

Zayets







Sumair said:


> Dear Zayets,
> I am very sorry to read about your dismissal from job... but you must aware that currently the thing is going like this every where..
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

Do you have your employee contract? You should look at that to see what they are suppose to do and offer.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

You are entitled to a ticket home regardless. However, as you were on probation, by law, he is only liable for your salary up to your last day of work. Beyond that, you are not entitled to anything. Unfortunately, he could also argue that he employed you at great expense and ultimately, the law makes no provision in such cases for either party to reimburse each other for expenses, unless it is explicitly stated in the contract (which no one would sign up to in any case!)

The company, at their discretion, may agree not to cancel your visa for an agreed period of time. However, this would be more a favour than a right as the law clearly states that your employer should cancel your visa as soon as you leave his employment and additionally, inform the bank that you are no longer employed.

Try and walk away with an NOC. That's the best you can hope for in this situation. Unfortunately, many people have fallen and will continue fall prey to employers who fail to disclose the full details of the job and result is that you only find out what the real deal is when it is too late. Delaying the signing of the termination letter will only annoy the guy. As you are looking for an NOC, it may better for you to keep him on side at the moment. He will not back down and you will still have to sign the letter either way, so better to get it over and done with. Thank the boss for the opportunity (whilst secretly cursing him in your head) and deliver the usual speech about it being unfortunate that it did not work out. After that, explain that you would still want to remain in the UAE and that you are asking the company to assist by a) giving you a grace period on your visa b) providing an NOC.

Pick yourself up and move on. There is no point dwelling on this situation as it will just cause you more stress and make you angrier - you still will not be able to change the outcome of it, so better close the door on this chapter and look forward to new opportunities. Your time and effort would be better invested in finding a new opportunity. You are already on the ground so you have an added advantage with regards to new employment.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Leaving this company*

Thanks Maz and Jynxgirl for your impute.

Just to be clear I am no longer making any effort to work things out with them as far as trying to stay at the job. At this point it is a case of discontinuing the relationship in the best possible way for me.

There do seem to be some discrepancies between the "Employment Contract" and the "Labour Contract" (the one retained by the Ministry..i.e Labour Dept.):

1). As regards, plane tickets :

"Employment Contract" 

"On the completion of 1 year of continuous service you will be entitled to 30 calendar days leave plus return ticket to home country"

"Labour Contract"

"The First Party (Employer) shall bear the cost of air ticket home at the time of commencing work and also the cost of one ticket home at the time of terminating the Employment Agreement".

2). As regards Holidays: 

"Employment Contract" 

"On the completion of 1 year of continuous service you will be entitled to 30 calendar days leave plus return ticket to home country"

"Labour Contract"

"The First Party is obligated to grant the Second Party annual leave withy pay for 30 days"

Conclusion: The Labour contract is more favorable to me since it means that the Company would need to reimburse me ( I actually purchased the plane ticket to come out here with my own money) for my plane ticket to come to Dubai as well as to pay for a plane ticket to leave. 

The Labour contract would also seem to provide me with the right to some holiday pay prorated for the 2 and half months I have been there (2.5 days pay).

Both the “Employment” and the “Labour” contract are signed by me as well as being signed by the CEO with the Company stamp. In the cases of the discrepancies I point out above which contract takes precedence?


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Zayets said:


> Thanks Maz and Jynxgirl for your impute.
> 
> Just to be clear I am no longer making any effort to work things out with them as far as trying to stay at the job. At this point it is a case of discontinuing the relationship in the best possible way for me.
> 
> ...


This is my area 

_Provided _your employment contract meets all the standard provision of UAE Labour law, the higher terms apply. In this instance, contract law will take legal precedence.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

The labour contract is right regarding your right to be flown home at your employer's expenses. Unfortunately, I do not think that your Employer will reimburse you the cost of the ticket from Russia to Dubai and owing to the time and expense involved in arguing this out with them, I would just drop it (up to you though). You could potentially put this to them and ask them about it but since the professional relationship has already broken down, I would imagine that they would interpret this as an attempt by yourself to 'cause trouble'. Inaccurate I know but that's the way the employers like to think when they are cornered and since you need an NOC from him and some grace period on your visa, I think he would use that against you and from that point starts all the empty threats about how they will cancel your visa straightaway and what not!! 

When you are on probation, you are not entitled to pro rata holiday pay! I spoke to the Ministry of Labour about the same thing when I was made redundant and argued that my employer had stated that he would 'pay' for all the annual leave I had accrued to which the guy replied that the employer does not even have to do this by law! He only sided with me when I stated that I had already completely my probation period - idiotic ex-boss of mine let my probation period end and then decided to make me redundant 2 weeks later! Not that it was worth anything since he failed to pay me what he owed and did a runner instead!

On a positive note, I'm glad that you are slowly putting this behind you. Keep moving forward (karma will take care of the boss) and I really hope that you are able to find new employment soon.


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Contract provisions*

Thanks for your reply, Elphaba,

What does it mean? 

Do they need to reimburse me for my plane ticket to come out here and also buy me a plane ticket to leave Dubai?

Do they also need to pay me (as prorated) for 2.5 days holiday pay?

Please clarify?

Thanks,

Zayets



Elphaba said:


> This is my area
> 
> _Provided _your employment contract meets all the standard provision of UAE Labour law, the higher terms apply. In this instance, contract law will take legal precedence.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Zayets said:


> Thanks for your reply, Elphaba,
> 
> What does it mean?
> 
> ...


What does the contract say? Bear in mind there may be differet clauses regarding general redundancy and that during a probationary period.

-


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Contract provisions*

When you ask what does the contract say are you referring to the contract on company letter head (signed by both myself and my employer earlier) or the contract on UAE Government letter head (signed and stamped by both myself and my employer later) ? 



Elphaba said:


> What does the contract say? Bear in mind there may be differet clauses regarding general redundancy and that during a probationary period.
> 
> -


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Zayets said:


> When you ask what does the contract say are you referring to the contract on company letter head (signed by both myself and my employer earlier) or the contract on UAE Government letter head (signed and stamped by both myself and my employer later) ?


The one that takes precedence....

-


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Which contract takes precedence?*

That was actually my question (since I am not a lawyer). 

It is not stated in either contract which of them take precedence.

Therefore which of these contracts takes precedence?

Zayets


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

As I said earlier

"Provided your employment contract meets all the standard provision of UAE Labour law, the higher terms apply. In this instance, contract law will take legal precedence."

-


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

Elphaba,

1st question: I do not understand what the definition of "higher terms apply" means?

2nd question: Is it part of UAE labour law that the company who has sponsered me to come to Dubai must pay for my plane ticket to Dubai and also must pay for a plane ticket back to my home country? 

Is it also part of UAE labour law that they need to pay for prorated holiday pay (in this case 2.5 days)?


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*near to the end of the road*

I will go to the office tomorrow with the intention of signing the termination letter.

The CEO wrote by e-mail (in response to me) that they will leave my visa open until I find another job or tell tham to close it for some other reason (like leaving the UAE).

He wrote that they only would pay me just up to the day I received the termination notice but when I wrote back that it is indicated in my employment contract that he must give me one day notice, he backtracked and confirmed he must pay me for it.

He confirmed that he would pay my airticket to my home country but said if I choose to take the ticket that I must leave this week instead of in May. Since I have already paid rent up to the middle of May here, it will financially better for me to decline the plane ticket and stay here until mid May (instead of to pay rent in my home country starting next week).

He says "according to the law" he does not have to pay me the 2.5 days of prorated holiday pay.

He was strangely enough silent about my point that in the labour contract it says the the "Employer is responsible for the the cost of air ticket at the time of commencing work".

It means that they would have to reimburse me for my flight ticket out here.

Both the inbound and outbound flight tickets are mentioned in the labour contract as being the responsibility of the employer. I will waive the outbound ticket so I can stay on my employment visa longer, however I would still like to get the reimbursed for the inbound ticket (as per the labour contract). Anyone have any experience with this? 



Zayets said:


> Elphaba,
> 
> 1st question: I do not understand what the definition of "higher terms apply" means?
> 
> ...


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## Muhannad (Mar 22, 2010)

I think this thread has been an excellent source of information on how to manage losing a job....and since, unfortunately, many people find themselves in similar circumstances...I vote sticky!!


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Looking for a job*

Thanks to all of you who put in their "two cents worth" regarding my recent situation.

My focus now is finding a new job.

Any advice on looking for a job would be appreciated. I am open to opportunities in the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain or Oman. Beyond that I am also ready to relocate to Europe, Asia, Australia, New Zealand if required

Profile: My experience is primarily in the:
1). BTL Advertising/Marketing (also known as Field Marketing),
2). Recruitment (last assignments)
3). Media
Business sectors working in either a General Management or Business Development/Sales/Marketing role or undertaking Market Research-Feasibility Study projects.

I am a native English speaker who is also experienced in using Russian on a daily basis in my business activities. I also have a intermediate level of German language knowledge and a basic level of Czech (these used to be much better but for the last 11 years I have been using Russian and not the other 2 languages).

Both my international work experience and extensive worldwide travel have allowed me to develop strong intercultural communications skills. I have worked on assignments in the UAE (with business trips to Qatar and Kuwait), Russia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Belgium, United Kingdom and the United States with experience interfacing with clients from The Middle East, Europe, Asia, and North America resulting in successful business partnerships.

Having worked in the recruitment sector I also do CV/Resume Writing and Interview Coaching in English and/or Russian (for either individuals or groups) who would like to stand out in their job search.

If you know of any opportunities that would be a good fit for my background or if you would like to use my experience for your own requirements then please feel free to contact me with a Private Message and I will get back to you ASAP.

Best regards,

Zayets


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## Zayets (Jan 1, 2010)

*Job Search*

Just an update from my side. 

There are a few interesting employment possibilities, however they all seem to be "up in the air" at the moment ("go slow mode" or situation where the decision maker(s) can not make a decision). If something doesn't happen this week then I'll need to return to Moscow as I cannot continue to stay here based on nothing concrete (which for me means a signed contract). I would like to stay here but if there is nothing to stay for then I am on a plane back to Moscow on May 11th.

Once again (just in case someone on this forum is hiring or knows of something) I am open to opportunities in the UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman or Kuwait. Beyond that I am also ready to relocate to Europe, Asia, Australia, New Zealand if required

Profile: My experience is primarily in the:
1). BTL Advertising/Marketing (also known as Field Marketing),
2). Recruitment (last assignments)
3). Media
4). FMCG (Food and Beverages)
Business sectors working in either a General Management or Business Development/Sales/Marketing/Headhunter role or undertaking Market Research-Feasibility Study projects.

I am a native English speaker who is also experienced in using Russian on a daily basis in my business activities. I also have an intermediate level of German language knowledge and a basic level of Czech (these used to be much better but for the last 11 years I have been using Russian and not the other 2 languages).

Both my international work experience and extensive worldwide travel have allowed me to develop strong inter-cultural communications skills. I have worked on assignments in the UAE (with business trips to Qatar and Kuwait), Russia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Belgium, United Kingdom and the United States with experience interfacing with clients from The Middle East, Europe, Asia, and North America resulting in successful business partnerships.

If you know of any opportunities that would be a good fit for my background or if you would like to use my experience for your own requirements then please feel free to contact me with a Private Message and I will get back to you ASAP.

Best regards,

Zayets


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## orangekitten (Apr 28, 2010)

True true. Everything happens for a reason


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