# Tips for home buyers



## omostra06

Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.


In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.* 

If it is garage it will say *garagem*. 
If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*. 
If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*. 
If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*. 
If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *

The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.

it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as a house and any potential buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.

Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura. 
*Cardeneta Predial*
This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.

*Certidão de Teor*
Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.

*Proof of Payment of IMT*
To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.

*Identification documents*
Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.

*Licença de Habitação*
Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.

*Ficha Technica de Habitação*
Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.

*Energy Certificate*
A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


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## mairead

omostra06 said:


> Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.
> 
> 
> In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
> If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.*
> 
> If it is garage it will say *garagem*.
> If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*.
> If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*.
> If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*.
> If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *
> 
> The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.
> 
> it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as a house and any potential buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.
> 
> Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura.
> *Cardeneta Predial*
> This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.
> 
> *Certidão de Teor*
> Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.
> 
> *Proof of Payment of IMT*
> To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.
> 
> *Identification documents*
> Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.
> 
> *Licença de Habitação*
> Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.
> 
> *Ficha Technica de Habitação*
> Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.
> 
> *Energy Certificate*
> A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


Hi again would you know whether the Building Energy Rating assesement is the same in Portugal as in Ireland. I am just wondering because my husband is a qualified Building Energy Rating Assesor here in Ireland and we were wondering if it could be something he could do when we come over.
Sorry for all the questions but is the law now that you need the energy report before you can build sell or rent?

I would appreciate any information on this!

Thanks


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## omostra06

The Energy Certificate here in Portugal will be more or less the same in other EU countries, however in order for him to do this work he would have to be acredited to carry out this work here in Portugal.

these are the people overseeing and regulating these inspections
:: ADENE - Agência para a Energia :: Homepage

Yes, as of Jan 09 you need one of these certificates to rent out or sell a property here in Portugal.

one company near us charges like this: 

apartments 

t0 - t1 200euros 
t2 - t3 250 euros 
t3 plus upto 300m2 300 euros 
more than 300m2 increase 2euros per/m2 

houses 

upto 200m2 all on one floor 350 euros 
upto 500m2 500 euros 
more than 500m2 increase 2euros per/m2 

all plus iva and the 45 euro that goes to the government.


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## omostra06

A few tips to think about when looking for a property in Portugal.


1 Take your time. Don’t rush into signing a promessa contract until you are sure the property and location are completely suitable for your needs. 

2 Take off the ‘rose coloured glasses’. Remember not to do anything you won’t back in the United Kingdom. If something seems a little out of the ordinary seek independent advice. 

3 Make a checklist of requirements you want from your property in Portugal. If you are looking to retire and live abroad take into consideration proximity of local amenities. If it a holiday house you are looking for – is an airport important? 

4 Ensure the legal owner is selling the property you wish to buy and that what is advertised is what is being sold. 

5 Ensure on the day you sign for the property the property is clear from any debt. Mortgages and debts are registered to a property in Portugal. Until you register the property in your name debt can be added and it is up to you to pay it off. 

6 If you like a property, talk to the locals. They are a great source of information and will be glad to assist. 

7 Visit the property more than once and at different times of the day. What looks great in the evening sun, may not first thing in a morning. 

8 Location of your property is important. If you are looking at a property close to water (river, lake, stream etc) please note it does rain in Portugal and water levels can rise dramatically within hours. Remember if you are viewing a property in the spring or summer, it does rain in Portugal during the autumn and winter. What looks like a cute rock garden, could turn out to be a dry river bed.

9 Under declaring. When you are purchasing a property in Central Portugal beware of under declaring the property’s’ true value when signing at the Escritura. The practice is illegal and it could cost you dearly when, and if, you come to sell. You will be liable to pay tax on a property if you make a profit from its sale. 

10 Register your property and land as quickly as possible following the final signing. Until you register the property in your name previous owners can still lodge debt against the property.


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## christopherdouglas

Hi Derek,
Wow, that's a lot if info to take in. Brilliant stuff, we're coming out on 21st and I have just printed off all of the above advice to take with us. Wonderful.
What a brill site this is . . .
Regards,
Chris


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## omostra06

christopherdouglas said:


> Hi Derek,
> Wow, that's a lot if info to take in. Brilliant stuff, we're coming out on 21st and I have just printed off all of the above advice to take with us. Wonderful.
> What a brill site this is . . .
> Regards,
> Chris


Hi Chris, no problem, happy to help with any questions you may have about Portugal.


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## solarq

mairead said:


> Hi again would you know whether the Building Energy Rating assesement is the same in Portugal as in Ireland. I am just wondering because my husband is a qualified Building Energy Rating Assesor here in Ireland and we were wondering if it could be something he could do when we come over.
> Sorry for all the questions but is the law now that you need the energy report before you can build sell or rent?
> 
> I would appreciate any information on this!
> 
> Thanks


Hi,

building energy rating in Portugal obeys in principal the following laws: Decreto-Lei78/2006, Decreto-Lei 79/2006 e Decreto-Lei 80/2006. You can download these laws at Diário da República Electrónico or more precisely athttp://www.dre.pt/sug/1s/diplomas.asp, introducing the type of law and number.

Your husband would have to register in the professional organizations like ANET or OE (Ordem dos Engenheiros) and then attend two seminars and pass the exams and be recognized as "Perito Qualificado"


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## solarq

omostra06 said:


> Hi Chris, no problem, happy to help with any questions you may have about Portugal.


@omostra 06

thank you for you detailed info. Even local buyers get caught sometimes in "missunderstandings" ending up with a property that does't suite their plans.

18 months ago I came just in time to prevent a Portuguese teacher to buy a property with a ruin of 40m2, where instead of beeing allowed to build a residential home of 150m2 he would just get the permissions to join a bathroom.

Check always with the city-hall.

By the way, that Real Estate Agent had to close meanwhile.


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## omostra06

When buying a property in Portugal you have to pay purchase taxes for properties over 89,700€. These are calculated on a per cent basis, which are on a sliding scale relating to the value of the property you wish to purchase.



Resales properties - including ruins, land, old houses - are subject to Imposto Municipal Sobre as Transmissões (IMT) tax. This must be paid up to three days prior to Escritura. The level of tax levied is on a sliding scale and is a percentage of the purchase price.



If the property is your sole residence then the taxes are levied as follows:

under 89,700€ 0% 
89,700€ - 122,700€ 2% minus 1,794€ 
122.700€ - 167,300€ 5% minus 5,475€ 
167,300€ - 278,800€ 7% minus 8,821€ 
278,800€ - 557,500 € 8% minus 11,609€ 
Over 557,500€ 6% 
If the property you are purchasing is a second property such as a holiday home then the taxes are calculated as follows: 
under 89,700€ 1% 
89,700€ - 122,700€ 2% minus 897€ 
122.700€ - 167,300€ 5% minus 4,578€ 
167,300€ - 278,800€ 7% minus 7,924€ 
278,800€ - 557,500 € 8% minus 10.712€ 
Over 557,500€ 6% 
Agricultural and building land is charged at the flat rate of 5%.

If you are unsure how much the IVA or IMT will be, it is advisable to check with the local Financas before you enter into a Promessa Contract.

The above figures were current as of January 2009.


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## ofilha

omostra06 said:


> A few tips to think about when looking for a property in Portugal.
> 
> 
> 1 Take your time. Don’t rush into signing a promessa contract until you are sure the property and location are completely suitable for your needs.
> 
> 2 Take off the ‘rose coloured glasses’. Remember not to do anything you won’t back in the United Kingdom. If something seems a little out of the ordinary seek independent advice.
> 
> 3 Make a checklist of requirements you want from your property in Portugal. If you are looking to retire and live abroad take into consideration proximity of local amenities. If it a holiday house you are looking for – is an airport important?
> 
> 4 Ensure the legal owner is selling the property you wish to buy and that what is advertised is what is being sold.
> 
> 5 Ensure on the day you sign for the property the property is clear from any debt. Mortgages and debts are registered to a property in Portugal. Until you register the property in your name debt can be added and it is up to you to pay it off.
> 
> 6 If you like a property, talk to the locals. They are a great source of information and will be glad to assist.
> 
> 7 Visit the property more than once and at different times of the day. What looks great in the evening sun, may not first thing in a morning.
> 
> 8 Location of your property is important. If you are looking at a property close to water (river, lake, stream etc) please note it does rain in Portugal and water levels can rise dramatically within hours. Remember if you are viewing a property in the spring or summer, it does rain in Portugal during the autumn and winter. What looks like a cute rock garden, could turn out to be a dry river bed.
> 
> 9 Under declaring. When you are purchasing a property in Central Portugal beware of under declaring the property’s’ true value when signing at the Escritura. The practice is illegal and it could cost you dearly when, and if, you come to sell. You will be liable to pay tax on a property if you make a profit from its sale.
> 
> 10 Register your property and land as quickly as possible following the final signing. Until you register the property in your name previous owners can still lodge debt against the property.


In addition to the above, i suggest finding a good lawyer, they are not too expensive but can save you lots of money. Even just talking to one to get some legal advice will be worth the money. There are two benefits to having a lawyer: you gain knowledge of the legal aspects of your purchase and secondly, if there is a problem, you have backup. There are Portugues lawyers but you should find one from a reputable source.


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## OrkneytoPortugal

omostra06 said:


> -
> *Energy Certificate*
> A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


The problem is - who and where are these engineers? And is it REALLY necessary to have an energy certificate for a ruin in a field?


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## omostra06

OrkneytoPortugal said:


> The problem is - who and where are these engineers? And is it REALLY necessary to have an energy certificate for a ruin in a field?



Hi welcome back to the forum.

As you are an estate agent you should have already been contacted by several engineers offering you thier services for your clients, but i can give you some contact details for registered engineers if you want. 


 when you sell a house, the owner will ask you to sort it out for them!

you can also learn more here.
:: ADENE - Agência para a Energia :: Homepage


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## omostra06

Just a little extra information for anyone looking at buying a property in Portugal.

If you want to find a registered estate agent, take a look at the INCI website, you can search for registered agents under the location, or if you have found an agent you can check the details of the agent by putting the agents AMI number into the website and search for them, the results will tell you if the agent is legal, registered and has upto date insurance, as well as giving you contact details and thier address. The AMI number for the agent can be found on thier website, advert etc, it has to be displayed on all the agents publications.

This link will take you to the correct page to check an agents details,
Consulta

this picture shows you what to expect and what to do to check.


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## ofilha

omostra06 said:


> Just a little extra information for anyone looking at buying a property in Portugal.
> 
> If you want to find a registered estate agent, take a look at the INCI website, you can search for registered agents under the location, or if you have found an agent you can check the details of the agent by putting the agents AMI number into the website and search for them, the results will tell you if the agent is legal, registered and has upto date insurance, as well as giving you contact details and thier address. The AMI number for the agent can be found on thier website, advert etc, it has to be displayed on all the agents publications.
> 
> This link will take you to the correct page to check an agents details,
> Consulta
> 
> this picture shows you what to expect and what to do to check.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is all great stuff. Thanks you all for the information.


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## omostra06

*Getting mains electricty connected*

Getting mains electricity connected to a property in Portugal can be a straight forward procedure, though it can also be a minefield if you do not do the correct research before buying a property without a mains electricity supply. 

Like some other European countries Portugal has differing categories of electricity supply, each with differing rules governing the connection - Agricultural Electricity; Building Work Electricity; Domestic Electricity and Commercial Electricity. 

Unfortunately getting a mains electricity supply connected is not as simple as making a telephone call, as some websites and estate agents will tell you. Many people have fallen into this trap of purchasing a property without a mains electricity supply on the word of the agent ensuring them it is easy to get connected, only to find two years later they still have no electricity supply.

The Portuguese government, in conjunction with EDP, (Energias de Portugal), have implemented rules governing the new connections of mains electricity to private, habitations as well as commercial properties to ensure all safety regulations are met.

If a property (habitation) has never had a mains electricity supply and is deemed to be in a sub habitable condition, then the electricity supply will not be connected until the property matches the correct criteria. 

In the case of ruins and ruined property, this will mean submitting a planning application to the local council to make the structural repairs necessary bringing the property up to a habitable condition. This includes a full new electrical system, installation of water inlet and egress pipes, creation of a septic tank, wiring for telephone and broadband capabilities and installation of pipe work for mains gas as well as any structural work which needs to be carried out. 

All of which collectively must meet the building regulations standard laid down by the government. Only after all of this is done, the work approved and the electricity system has been installed and signed off by a registered electrician will the electric company give a connection with a definitive electric metre.

Another key point to take into consideration is the distance the nearest electrical post is from the property as this can be prove costly. Electrical posts are at most sited 100 metres apart and although you can get the electric metre sited at the edge of your boundary bringing the supply to it can be expensive. To have a post installed by the electric company will cost around 1,000 euros per post. If the nearest post is on the opposite side of the road from your property you will have to have a new post installed to ensure there is enough clearance room beneath for high sided vehicles to pass beneath. 

However if a property has already had an electrical supply then the procedure is much less involved although can sometimes mean the installation of a new consumer unit by a registered electrician.

If the electric supply is current then it is simply a matter of visiting the main office of EDP (Energias de Portugal) to sign up to a new contract. You will need your identity documents and your fiscal card as well as some proof you are the new owner of the property (ideally a copy of the Escritura). Then the staff within the office will create a new contract for you with a start date for the electricity supply to be changed into your name. When visiting EDP it is advisable to read the existing metre as this will speed up the process.

Once you have signed the contract you can elect whether to have the electricity bills paid by direct debit with the bills being sent to your Portuguese address. However EDP have also introduced an online billing procedure which can be useful if your property is a holiday home.


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## omostra06

*Planning Permission info*

Portugal has some of the strictest planning laws in Europe. These laws have been introduced for the following reasons: to ensure sustainable development, enhance and protect the green open spaces. The Portuguese government in keeping a strict control on planning hopes to guarantee these spaces are not littered with ugly, water draining urban developments like their neighbour, Spain. 
Attaining planning permission (project) can be a time consuming affair in Portugal and it is not unusual for this process to take up to a year or more to be passed. Once you have selected the architect you wish to use and have an idea of the design of building you wish to build, the process should be relatively straightforward. 

Whereas planning permission in the United Kingdom usually takes six weeks to process, in Portugal the procedure is much, much longer. In Portugal a project, or planning permission, once submitted in full to the Council, could take from six months to one year to pass. 

However despite the lengthy time period it takes for planning permission to be passed in Portugal, it is always advisable to complete a renovation, rebuild or restoration project within the lines of the law. 

If you are tempted to start renovating, reconstructing or rebuilding a property without the correct planning permissions or licenses, you could find yourself left with an illegal property which has no value or you could be fined heavily by the council.

Planning permission (Projecto) in Portugal is a two fold procedure and it is best to work with an accredited architect and engineer. There are technical artists who will be able to draw a set of plans for you, however unlike an architect who has trained for seven years, they may not be familiar with the latest laws governing new builds or restoration projects.

The first stage of planning is called the Projecto de Arquitectura (Architectural Project) is a comprehensive brief including architectural drawings, topographical survey and list of materials to be used. This is submitted to the Câmara first for approval.

The second stage of any planning procedure in Portugal is the Projecto de Especialiada (Specialities Project). This part of the project covers the engineering required to complete the build, information on septic waste removal, water and so on and is usually compiled in conjunction with an engineer.

Once both the Projecto de Arquitectura and Projecto de Especialiada have been approved by the council you can with your builder pick up the Licença de Obras (License of Work) from the Câmara.


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## omostra06

We have been contacted recently by an overseas buyer that has bought a property here in Portugal, the agent told her that she didn’t need to employ the services of a Lawyer, she didn’t and now has major problems as the property she bought has a new road planned to pass straight through it. 

Had she employed a Lawyer then she would have been made aware of this huge problem before she bought the property.

The agent in question failed to inform her of this new road, even although he would have been fully aware of it and by him ensuring that she did not have independent legal advice, he made sure she was kept in the dark until after she had bought.

Anyone looking at property here in Portugal. ALWAYS use an INDEPENDANT Lawyer.
Avoid costly mistakes!


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## omostra06

Hearing a few stories of people paying the deposit on a property directly to the Estate Agent, this is not normal proceedure and can lead to problems.

All deposit money (normally 10%) should go directly to the owner or to your Lawyer if they have a power of attorney to sign and pay on your behalf.

Estate Agents in Portugal are not allowed to recieve or hold a deposit for a property, despite what some may tell you.

The deposit should only be paid at the time of signing your prommessa contract.

An estate agent can not sign a promessa contract for you!

Be safe and do it right to avoid problems.


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## Antonina

*Thank you for your advice it was most helpfull I will be buying a property in late Ju*

[ house and any poteQUOTE=omostra06;102953]Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.


In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.* 

If it is garage it will say *garagem*. 
If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*. 
If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*. 
If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*. 
If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *

The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.

it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as antial buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.

Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura. 
*Cardeneta Predial*
This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.

*Certidão de Teor*
Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.

*Proof of Payment of IMT*
To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.

*Identification documents*
Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.

*Licença de Habitação*
Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.

*Ficha Technica de Habitação*
Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.

*Energy Certificate*
A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.[/QUOTE]


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## omostra06

Hi welcome to the forum, if you need any advice just ask.


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## dellboy

*lawyers*



omostra06 said:


> Hi welcome to the forum, if you need any advice just ask.


does anyone know a good english speeking lawyer in olivera di hospital,can you give me a rough idea of costs to buy property with a value around 160000euros


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## PETERFC

*How to get help*

Hi All

I have tried before to get help in English on this site. I was advised to go to the tips for home buyers. What good are tips if the links are in Portuguese unless you can read Portuguese. Below are the links of help i found in the tips for homebuyers. What good is it if you can't read it because the links are not in English. The sites i was advised to see are great for information if you are Portuguese or can read it. But their is more to find than how to use the information on Sophies site for example. 

I need to find activities for disabled people for holidays. A link i looked at was for 
Trans Serrano Home a website in Portuguese. The site gives great information about activities around the Gois area. The site does not have an English version but their is a way to read this in English and their are a few things to do to get the English translation.

First type the name of the site you want the English version of into the Google search. Do not type the WWW just type for example transserrano.com Google will now give you a list it has found. The top of the list is the one you want.

Trans Serrano » Home - [ Translate this page ] This is what Google finds now all you do is click the Translate this page. Now click and see what comes up. You have now got the website in an English translation. It works i have tried as i type this. I then went to the Newsletter section. Their are a number of newsletters to view, i picked the June 2009

The links below are a waste of time if you can't read them.

Below is a short section translated from from an English translation by using the above method. From the Microgeneration page.

Since the end of the 70s that there is a growing concern by many political scientists and international, in the face of human activity on Earth, which adversely affects the climate in the world, mainly due to the use of fossil fuels, not renewable. Several international organizations and intergovernmental urgem action to avoid deep damage to the environment, ie the basis of our human existence.

In 2002 the EU ratified the Kyoto Protocol of 1997, pledging to reduce its CO2 emissions by at least 5% between 2008 and 2012, compared to values recorded in 1990. 

Please if you are going to provide a link to any site for information try first to see if their is an English version and mention it. I have not yet found a Portuguese website that i can't read in English. Some the results are better that others some are very good. 

Please give it a try it's worth the effort to be able to get the information you want.


Peter the 666 man

:: ADENE - Agência para a Energia :: Homepage

Diário da República Electrónico 

Energiasolar-Portugal.EU - Aconselhamento, Planeamento, Instalação e Manutenção de Sistemas de Energia Solar


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## christopherdouglas

*Web Translate*

Hi Peter, the triple six man,

This is going a long way from Derek's thread but:

We are learning Portuguese VERY slowly, and are no-where good enough to read web pages, so we downloaded the Google Translation Toolbar.

Brilliant  Almost :confused2: Some of the translations are a bit quirky but it's good enough to get by on, and a lot faster than pasting sentances into BabelFish.

Regards,
Chris


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## Guatemala

Hi,
This is my first post and I apologise ahead of time if I should've placed it elsewhere! I am looking for some advice on buying a property in Portugal. We have found a house in the Algarve and have been negotiating a price and applying for finance for a little while now but I am still unsure as to how you find out the exact figure of IMT that will be payable? Our lawyer says that he will be able to declare the land and buldings in a way to minimise our responsibility but has not given us an actual amount. We've applied to a handful of banks for a mortgage and they quote wildy different amounts on the simulations they provide. What or how is the final amount payable determined by?

Thank you


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## omostra06

use the table below to work out your imt.


Property Purchase Taxes in Portugal


----------



## Guatemala

omostra06 said:


> use the table below to work out your imt.
> 
> 
> Thank you for your reply. We were aware of those rates. The property is made up of a portion of rural and a portion of urban land, which I guess is where the answer becomes slightly more complicated. I will confirm with our lawyer the area that falls in each and go from there.


----------



## Diane1

I have the feeling that half of the members on the forum are in competition with you. Can’t believe the amount of stat agents in the forum


----------



## omostra06

No one is in competition with anyone, we have members from various professions which is great for the forum, as they can offer members good up to date advice on several subjects, which only enhances the forum,


----------



## ofilha

*Tips*



omostra06 said:


> No one is in competition with anyone, we have members from various professions which is great for the forum, as they can offer members good up to date advice on several subjects, which only enhances the forum,


Hi Derek,
Your tips are great. I have been looking around for some property in Portugal and have used remax as my primary search engine so to speak. Are you a real estate agent? If so, do you have a web site for your agency? Also, have you considered putting all the tips discussed in this thread somewhere in this forum so that we can look at it in its totality? I was going to copy and paste the several posts in this thread for my own use so that i can digest all of the tips.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## omostra06

ofilha said:


> Hi Derek,
> Your tips are great. I have been looking around for some property in Portugal and have used remax as my primary search engine so to speak. Are you a real estate agent? If so, do you have a web site for your agency? Also, have you considered putting all the tips discussed in this thread somewhere in this forum so that we can look at it in its totality? I was going to copy and paste the several posts in this thread for my own use so that i can digest all of the tips.
> 
> Thanks for the info.


Hi ofilha, Yes I do own a INCi registered Estate Agency, we have a main office in Tomar central Portugal, with 8 other satalite agents working for us in various other locations around Central portugal.
I cant post details of my company here as it would be advertising, but if you browse the *Portugal Classifieds Marketplace * Section of the forum above, you will find us.

The link at the bottom of all my posts is not for our Agency, its to our Marketing Company´s Portugal information website.


----------



## ofilha

omostra06 said:


> Hi ofilha, Yes I do own a INCi registered Estate Agency, we have a main office in Tomar central Portugal, with 8 other satalite agents working for us in various other locations around Central portugal.
> I cant post details of my company here as it would be advertising, but if you browse the *Portugal Classifieds Marketplace * Section of the forum above, you will find us.
> 
> The link at the bottom of all my posts is not for our Agency, its to our Marketing Company´s Portugal information website.


Thank you omostra06. Question what are the requirements to become a real estate agent in Portugal. The reason i ask is because i am looking for something to do when i retire and move to Portugal. There are plenty of things to do, but i would like to also earn some money. And real estate sounds like fun so i have been mulling the idea of getting a real estate license in Portugal. Can one do this part-time? Thanks again.


----------



## omostra06

You can do it part time, but the type of job it is, to do it properly and offer a high level of service you have to work all the time, a normal working day for us starts at 8.30am until the office closes at 7.30pm ish, then a further hour or two at home answering emails. we get Sunday off sometimes. in 3 years I have taken 4 days Holiday. so it does consume a lot of time working in real estate. I drive around 650 klms per week showing properties.

You need to sit an exam to get your license, then form a company to get a ami number/license, you can work in a partnership with someone who already has a license.

If you want to work in real estate why not think about working with an already established company, learn the job with them, then think about starting your own company after a while.

The job does have great rewards but is a lot of hard work, good luck with your plans


----------



## ofilha

omostra06 said:


> You can do it part time, but the type of job it is, to do it properly and offer a high level of service you have to work all the time, a normal working day for us starts at 8.30am until the office closes at 7.30pm ish, then a further hour or two at home answering emails. we get Sunday off sometimes. in 3 years I have taken 4 days Holiday. so it does consume a lot of time working in real estate. I drive around 650 klms per week showing properties.
> 
> You need to sit an exam to get your license, then form a company to get a ami number/license, you can work in a partnership with someone who already has a license.
> 
> If you want to work in real estate why not think about working with an already established company, learn the job with them, then think about starting your own company after a while.
> 
> The job does have great rewards but is a lot of hard work, good luck with your plans


Thank you Derek,
I wanted to retire not work harder. , but i understand what you are saying and it's the nature of the beast i think. I may forget about that idea. Thanks for the information. And have a great day and hope lots of sales.


----------



## omostra06

ofilha said:


> Thank you Derek,
> I wanted to retire not work harder. , but i understand what you are saying and it's the nature of the beast i think. I may forget about that idea. Thanks for the information. And have a great day and hope lots of sales.


Yes we also came to Portugal to retire, take it easy perhaps build a house......
next thing we knew we were back running businesses....... I think if your the type of person that likes to work, retirement is very hard to do...you try it but before you know it you end up working again......


----------



## ofilha

omostra06 said:


> Yes we also came to Portugal to retire, take it easy perhaps build a house......
> next thing we knew we were back running businesses....... I think if your the type of person that likes to work, retirement is very hard to do...you try it but before you know it you end up working again......


You are absolutely right about that. I like to work but only with the things i enjoy. I thought that perhaps sales might be a good way to keep myself entertained and it could be fun. I thought about computers since that's my background, but i am so sick of them, and i now even think that computers are more of a problem than the solution, that i am not sure i even want to entertain that idea. Moreover, i wanted to get away from cars and it sound like i will need an automobile for a sales job, another expense and headache. 
So i am still mulling what to do when i get there. There are lots of volunteer work i could do and that is an option, even with computers. 

Hey, thank you for all the feedback.


----------



## kingrulzuk

hiya derek

im kings 26 yrs old from scotland.

i have been looking around on remax for flats outside lisbon

is there any 1 bedroom flats for sale under 50,000 euros?

and can you please give a name and number of a good english speking lawyer who you trust?

thanks for ur time pal

will sure buy you a drink pal

ta


----------



## kingrulzuk

i got the name and the number so i will soon call the person

thanks for ur help derek


----------



## saffi

Omostra06, thanks for all the info, but we want to rent, would this be advisable and how long do tenancy agreements last out there. Plus is there a paper that we can subscribe to for jobs ect..

Many thanks Natasha


----------



## Guest

*Rustico land question*

Hi,

I've just joined and not used this before so please forgive any mistakes.

We have been over twice and looked at places and, over a period of months, agreed a price etc and got to the point of having a copy of the Promissory contract. It's approx one hectre of land and a clause in the contract states
the land as "rustico" and claims this gives the right to build a "habitacao" of 400m2. subject to approval of the design.

Is this generally true that an area of "rustico" has a right to have 5% of its area classed "habitacao"??

Thanks




omostra06 said:


> Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.
> 
> 
> In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
> If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.*
> 
> If it is garage it will say *garagem*.
> If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*.
> If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*.
> If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*.
> If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *
> 
> The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.
> 
> it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as a house and any potential buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.
> 
> Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura.
> *Cardeneta Predial*
> This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.
> 
> *Certidão de Teor*
> Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.
> 
> *Proof of Payment of IMT*
> To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.
> 
> *Identification documents*
> Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.
> 
> *Licença de Habitação*
> Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.
> 
> *Ficha Technica de Habitação*
> Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.
> 
> *Energy Certificate*
> A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi Coleio

When in dought do nought before you sign your Promissory contract get the correct answer as the Promissory contract is a legally binding contract. Also incase you need it get as long a Promissory contract as you can. I got an eight month contract just to make sure i was able to sell in the UK.

Good luck

Peterfc 666?


----------



## Wanderlusttaffy

omostra06 said:


> Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.
> 
> Hello, I'm new to this forum and I'm hoping someone will take the time to read my post and give me some good advice.
> 
> I'm a UK citizen but I have lived in California since 1989. I'd like to return to the UK (all my family live there) but the cost of living is expensive and I would find the weather depressing.
> 
> For the past year or so I've been wondering what I'm going to do when I retire and then a sudden thought popped into my head ... relocate to Spain. I decided that I wasn't a party girl and that life in Portugal seemed more attractive. Besides, maybe learning Portugese will keep my mind sharp and alert (something it's never been) for the next couple of decades.
> 
> I've been looking at rehab properties in central Portugal but most of them look like they need a LOT of work. Besides, is it feasible to buy a rehab property and sit on it for five years without working on it? What about vandalism? Wouldn't the local government make you clean the place up?
> 
> What about the properties that have one renovated building and maybe one or two others in so-so shape. What is the likelihood of being able to rent out the house when it's next to an eye sore? I wouldn't dream of doing it over here, someone would probably get hurt and sue me for everything I own.
> 
> I'm probably jumping the gun - I have a down payment but I'm not sure about qualifying for the mortgage.
> 
> Thank you for your time.


----------



## omostra06

coleio said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just joined and not used this before so please forgive any mistakes.
> 
> We have been over twice and looked at places and, over a period of months, agreed a price etc and got to the point of having a copy of the Promissory contract. It's approx one hectre of land and a clause in the contract states
> the land as "rustico" and claims this gives the right to build a "habitacao" of 400m2. subject to approval of the design.
> 
> Is this generally true that an area of "rustico" has a right to have 5% of its area classed "habitacao"??
> 
> Thanks


NO, There are a lot of checks to be done on land to find out if you will ever be allowed to build on it, this should be done BEFORE signing a Promessa contract and paying a deposit, lots of people have made the mistake of buying a piece of land that the agent or owner has told them they can build on, only to find out after that the council will not allow building, get independant advice from a Lawyer, get them to check with the council, to find out what can and cant be done with the land, there are no general rules for land, each plot can have different laws applying to it.
Regards
Derek


----------



## omostra06

Nothing in the promessa contract can say if you can or cant build or rebuild, its easy for a lawyer or agent to write a clause that says, "you can build a house subject to planning, the statement means nothing, 

The only way to be safe when buying land or ruins is to speak to the people who grant the permissions to build, the council planning dept, not an angent, owner or lawyer!

what happens once you buy the land and then apply for planning to build a house if the council say, sorry no more building in that are, would it not be better to know this info before you buy.

lots of people have come unstuck buying rustic land, they buy it on the say so of the owner or agent saying yes you can build here, but the reality is they cant possibly know, unless someone has put in plans to build, waited for one year then got them passed, then the land does have permission to build, you have then of course got to build exactly what was passed.

be careful when buying land, it can be a mine field!


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*



omostra06
be careful when buying land said:


> BOOM
> 
> Sorry Derek had to do that. :clap2:
> 
> Peterfc 666?


----------



## omostra06

*Property Purchase Taxes in Portugal*

When buying a property in Portugal you have to pay purchase taxes for properties over 90,418€. These are calculated on a per cent basis, which are on a sliding scale relating to the value of the property you wish to purchase. These rates are usually amended each year inline with inflation and although new rates and a new system was introduced in April 2010, these proved too complex to calculate. Therefore amended rates with precise deductions have been now calculated (May 2010).



Resale properties - including ruins, land, old houses - are subject to Imposto Municipal Sobre as Transmissões (IMT) tax. This must be paid up to three days prior to Escritura. The level of tax levied is on a sliding scale and is a percentage of the purchase price.



If the property is your sole residence then the taxes are levied as follows:

Primary Residence 
under 90,418€ 0% 
90,418€ - 123,682€ 2% minus 1,808.36€ 
123,682€ - 168,638€ 5% minus 5,518.82€ 
168,638€ - 281,030€ 7% minus 8,891.58€ 
281,030€ - 561,960€ 8% minus 11,701.88€ 
Over 561,960€ 6% 
If the property you are purchasing is a second property such as a holiday home then the taxes are calculated as follows: 
Second (Holiday) Home 
under 90,418€ 1% 
90,418€ - 123,682€ 2% minus 904.18€ 
123,682€ - 168,638€ 5% minus 4,614.64€ 
168,638€ - 281,030€ 7% minus 7,987.40€ 
281,030€ - 538,978€ 8% minus 10,797.70€ 
Over 538,978€ = 6% 
Agricultural (rustico) is charged at the flat rate of 5%, whereas Urban land (urbano) is charged at a rate of 6%.

If you are unsure how much the IVA or IMT will be, it is advisable to check with the local Finanças before you enter into a Promessa Contract.

*The above figures were current as of May 2010. 
_Info courtesy of Gekkoportugal_


----------



## Arthur.E.Grice

*Arthur*



christopherdouglas said:


> Hi Derek,
> Wow, that's a lot if info to take in. Brilliant stuff, we're coming out on 21st and I have just printed off all of the above advice to take with us. Wonderful.
> What a brill site this is . . .
> Regards,
> Chris


Hi..Where a bouts in oz are you from Chris ?? Arthur (Brisbane )


----------



## JohnBoy

*Bridging loan?*

Hi Derek

Last January my girlfriend decided to by a new build that would be ready in August. Plenty of time, she thought, to sell her current apartment. Now 7 months on we're into July and still looking for that elusive buyer. She is getting increasingly stressed out at the thought that she will not be in a position to proceed when the time comes to sign the escritura.

Are there any facilities available in Portugal that offer something like a bridging loan to tide her over until she can sell the apartment? Do you have any other suggestions?

Many thanks.


----------



## omostra06

JohnBoy said:


> Hi Derek
> 
> Last January my girlfriend decided to by a new build that would be ready in August. Plenty of time, she thought, to sell her current apartment. Now 7 months on we're into July and still looking for that elusive buyer. She is getting increasingly stressed out at the thought that she will not be in a position to proceed when the time comes to sign the escritura.
> 
> Are there any facilities available in Portugal that offer something like a bridging loan to tide her over until she can sell the apartment? Do you have any other suggestions?
> 
> Many thanks.


These types of situations do happen here in Portugal, the options are.

1. do nothing and the promessa will run out resulting in a loss of deposit.

2. secure funds to complete on the purchase from another source, mortgage, borrow from family etc.

3. ask for an extention to the promessa, most owners will agree to an extention on the promessa if you have a good reason, not having the money to complete is a good reason, if they are reluctant to give you an extention then perhaps offer another deposit,(10%or so) this may help them agree. ask for 3 or 4 months more so that you can sell the house then complete.


----------



## JohnBoy

Hi Keith and thank you for the prompt reply.

Option 1 - Ouch! And hopefully will be avoidable.

Option 2 - Friends and family are not an option. I would love to take out a mortgage to buy the apartment but at my age (66) not really an option.

That takes us to option 3 which is a suggestion that I did make to her but she seems reluctant to do and I have no idea why. 

It seems to me that a good chat over a bottle of red tonight is what is required.

The sad thing is that she is a bank manager and they have turned her down flat for a bridging loan. It seems that the banks here are in such a mess at the moment that are only interested in deposits and not in lending money, even to staff. It seems a strange business model to me but hey, they must have it right as they are rich and I am not!


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*



JohnBoy said:


> Hi Derek
> 
> Last January my girlfriend decided to by a new build that would be ready in August. Plenty of time, she thought, to sell her current apartment. Now 7 months on we're into July and still looking for that elusive buyer. She is getting increasingly stressed out at the thought that she will not be in a position to proceed when the time comes to sign the escritura.
> 
> Are there any facilities available in Portugal that offer something like a bridging loan to tide her over until she can sell the apartment? Do you have any other suggestions?
> 
> Many thanks.


Hi John 

As Derek says you have three options. Listen to Derek he knows what he is talking about.


I was in the same position as you find yourself in. On my last trip over i paid an additional deposit via my agent Patricia who had asked for an extension to my Promissory Contract, in my case i have till the end of the year before i have to pay and move in.


If you follow the link below and read the post Derek has a radio show on a Saturday morning. This week Derek wants Forum members to call there is links and phone numbers on the post. I am sure Derek would be glad to here from you. 


Peter

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...-living-portugal/33189-radio-show-guests.html


----------



## Catx

I hope that the chat over a bottle of wine has gone well. The purchaser, being herself a bank manager, will be well aware of her options, and the reluctance of her employers to extend a bridging finance must be scary news to her ears.

If it were me, and I really wanted the particular property and, of course did not want to say "ciao" to the deposit already paid, I would sell my car and some other valuables to be in a position to enhance the deposit already paid.

She may also want to review how she is selling her current property. If using an agent, maybe she should switch. Simple things, obvious I know, but decluttering and cheap lick of paint - make sure any area in front of the house looks amazing, even if it opens directly onto the street.

Derek is indeed a nice man, but your woman has worked at this game a long time. Get her to calm down, pitch her house as best she can possibly do in these difficult times. Sell her car, put her saleable goods on ebay, raise the deposit offer and go for it.

There is always an answer. Me living here is living proof of that.

Best of luck to you both.

Remind her too, when she gets here, the vinho tinto, including the really good stuff, is a whole pile cheaper here.

Hold on to our dreams. They are what get us here, despite the obstacles.


----------



## JohnBoy

Thanks for that Peter. Unfortunately I'll be on the road at the time but will try to listen in.

Thanks for you support Catx. The chat went well though it was with a walk and a beer. I'll save the wine for another time. I didn't put too many details in the original post to Derek but my gf is actually Portuguese and manages a bank here in Coimbra. Even more worrying and I've suggested she starts to look for another job. LOL We had the property on sale with three agents and then put it on Caso Sapo and since then have been inundated with agents and a few potential buyers.

Anyroad, thanks to one of our regular little misunderstandings due to language difficulties, she says that it was her intention to contact the builder and seek an extension to the promessa. She's going to give him a call today and as Derek suggested she will ask for another 4 months. If he shows any resistence we still have savings that we can offer as an extra deposit to sweeten him.


----------



## J&J

Hi

just wondered if the habitation licences also apply to 'temporary structures' - been waiting for confirmed planning on a piece of land purchased 3 years ago which was supposed to be straightforward - architect is very vague and keeps telling us it is agreed in principle and will soon be finalised but we are now thinking of erecting some kind of static mobile home or log cabin - would the same planning rules /permissions apply the same as permanent buildings or does it vary according to type of structure and region in which it is situated - any knowledge or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers








omostra06 said:


> Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.
> 
> 
> In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
> If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.*
> 
> If it is garage it will say *garagem*.
> If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*.
> If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*.
> If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*.
> If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *
> 
> The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.
> 
> it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as a house and any potential buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.
> 
> Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura.
> *Cardeneta Predial*
> This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.
> 
> *Certidão de Teor*
> Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.
> 
> *Proof of Payment of IMT*
> To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.
> 
> *Identification documents*
> Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.
> 
> *Licença de Habitação*
> Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.
> 
> *Ficha Technica de Habitação*
> Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.
> 
> *Energy Certificate*
> A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*



J&J said:


> Hi
> 
> just wondered if the habitation licences also apply to 'temporary structures' - been waiting for confirmed planning on a piece of land purchased 3 years ago which was supposed to be straightforward - architect is very vague and keeps telling us it is agreed in principle and will soon be finalised but we are now thinking of erecting some kind of static mobile home or log cabin - would the same planning rules /permissions apply the same as permanent buildings or does it vary according to type of structure and region in which it is situated - any knowledge or advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers


Hi J & J

First welcome to the Forum.

It is important to name the app area where you live/ have land/ or a house is situated.
There can be differences from each Camera as to how they view the rules. 

Derek is the best guide but talking to the planning is really the best route to get the answer you need.

Peter


----------



## omostra06

J&J said:


> Hi
> 
> just wondered if the habitation licences also apply to 'temporary structures' - been waiting for confirmed planning on a piece of land purchased 3 years ago which was supposed to be straightforward - architect is very vague and keeps telling us it is agreed in principle and will soon be finalised but we are now thinking of erecting some kind of static mobile home or log cabin - would the same planning rules /permissions apply the same as permanent buildings or does it vary according to type of structure and region in which it is situated - any knowledge or advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers



'temporary structures' are things like caravans, tents, yurts, etc. any building that you build over a certain size and has utillities conected will need planning permission, especially if you plan to live in that building as it then becomes a building intended for habitation, which then means all building regulations will be applied to it, it will need to have a project submitted to the council for permission to build. log cabins will need planning approval the same as any house.

You say you have been waiting a long time to get planning permission, did you submit a full project to build a house, along with drawingts and speciality project?


it can take a while to get approval here in Portugal, but should be around 6 months to one year, ask the architect why there is a delay, if its delayed the council will write to you to tell you what the problem is, or go and speak direct to the council planning department, take your project process number and ask them direct whats happening with your project.


----------



## Stellen

We have put in an offer on a house and are waiting to see if it has been accepted. When it comes to signing the Promessa can I issue a Power of Attorney to a lawyer since I will be unable to sign in person? 

We will probably aim to complete on 1 January 2011 so we avoid having to pay council tax for 2010.


----------



## omostra06

Stellen said:


> We have put in an offer on a house and are waiting to see if it has been accepted. When it comes to signing the Promessa can I issue a Power of Attorney to a lawyer since I will be unable to sign in person?
> 
> We will probably aim to complete on 1 January 2011 so we avoid having to pay council tax for 2010.


Yes, you can arrange for a Lawyer to sign the Promessa contract for you and pay the deposit, the lawyer can also sign at the completion for you as well if its easier for you.
if you dont want to complete for 6 months make sure that someone checks with the owner to see if the extended promessa contract is acceptable,(its normally 3 months)and then check yourself that the contract has the extra months on it.

if you plan to live in the house as your main place of residence you will not have any council tax to pay anyway.

Good luck with your plans


----------



## Stellen

Thanks for the quick and useful reply. I'll keep you all informed of develoments. As you point out, we might have to complete sooner than 2011.


----------



## portnaster

*License of habitation*

Hi there, my partner and I are buying a property in Portugal but, even by Portuguese standards it is a little complicated.
The owners of the property have inherited it from their father who never registered the buildings. The family are poor and do not have the money to pay the fees to make the buildings legal. The estate agent has suggested that we come to an agreement where the deposit we pay is used to cover their expenses. I wondered if there is any advice you could give us as everything I read says to make sure that there is a license of habitation before you hand over any money.


----------



## omostra06

portnaster said:


> Hi there, my partner and I are buying a property in Portugal but, even by Portuguese standards it is a little complicated.
> The owners of the property have inherited it from their father who never registered the buildings. The family are poor and do not have the money to pay the fees to make the buildings legal. The estate agent has suggested that we come to an agreement where the deposit we pay is used to cover their expenses. I wondered if there is any advice you could give us as everything I read says to make sure that there is a license of habitation before you hand over any money.


Its not just about the cost to legalise the buildings (if it is even possible) it can in some cases take a very long time.

what happens if you pay the 10% deposit and they cant legalise the building at all? but they have spent your deposit.
as you say, they have not much money. how would you ever get double your deposit back if they default on the promessa contract?


----------



## portnaster

Hi derek, thanks for responding so quickly to my question. 
The point you have made is one that had bothered me right from the start although when I put it to the agent it was not specifically to do with the license just a general question as to what happens if the family revoke on the deal after we've paid the deposit and they have spent the money. The reply was that the authorities would then take control and sell us the property. I presume that if this was the case it could turn out to be a lengthy and costly process.
The property in question is rural with a couple of hectares of land, The house is a renovation project but most of the work is cosmetic. It is an old building which looks like it has been extended. 
Is there any way we can find out before we commit whether it is likely to get a license?


----------



## omostra06

portnaster said:


> Hi derek, thanks for responding so quickly to my question.
> The point you have made is one that had bothered me right from the start although when I put it to the agent it was not specifically to do with the license just a general question as to what happens if the family revoke on the deal after we've paid the deposit and they have spent the money. The reply was that the authorities would then take control and sell us the property. I presume that if this was the case it could turn out to be a lengthy and costly process.
> The property in question is rural with a couple of hectares of land, The house is a renovation project but most of the work is cosmetic. It is an old building which looks like it has been extended.
> Is there any way we can find out before we commit whether it is likely to get a license?


If someone breaks a contract, they are forced by law to compensate you by paying twice the deposit, if they cant do this, then the law can force them to sell you the property, it is up to you to appoint a lawyer and take them to court to force them to complete the sale, but that doesnt really help you, as forcing them to sell you the house still doesnt solve the issue of if the house can be legalised.

you can check if it can be legalised before you buy.


----------



## portnaster

Hi Derek, thanks again for your advice. I wonder if you could expand a little on your last sentance of "checking before we buy". Is it just a case of making enquiries at the local planning department ?


----------



## omostra06

portnaster said:


> Hi Derek, thanks again for your advice. I wonder if you could expand a little on your last sentance of "checking before we buy". Is it just a case of making enquiries at the local planning department ?


yes, things like the land zone classification and the size of plot to construction percentage, location within plot to boundries, etc will tell you if it will be legalised,
the council planning dept will give you a good idea if it can be done, how long it may take and what will be involved


----------



## portnaster

omostra06 said:


> yes, things like the land zone classification and the size of plot to construction percentage, location within plot to boundries, etc will tell you if it will be legalised,
> the council planning dept will give you a good idea if it can be done, how long it may take and what will be involved


Hi derek - just want to say a BIG thanks for your advice. It turns out the agent I'm dealing with is way ahead of me and has already got approval from the planning department and is now looking into finding a way for us to fund the process without getting our fingers burnt.
I feel a lot happier now about the situation. Thanks again.


----------



## omostra06

No Problem....happy to help. good luck with your plans


----------



## omostra06

Good advice from those in the know.
Getting the most from property in Portugal - Telegraph


----------



## Leonor SM

What is the difference in electrical current Portugal / USA ?


----------



## Guest

Leonor SM said:


> What is the difference in electrical current Portugal / USA ?


Hi,

I assume you mean "difference in electric mains" related to using an electrical item from USA in Portugal.

Mains electricity in Portugal is 240 volt AC at 50 hz mains in the USA is usually 110 volt AC at 60 Hz.

Fridges, cookers, water heaters from USA cannot be connected directly to the electic mains in Portugal. There are transformers available to convert 240 volt to 110 volt but this gets complicated.

Items with clocks often use the 50Hz (portugal) or 60Hz(USA) but using a 60Hz clock on 50Hz mains will not keep the right time.

Items with modern external power supplies, like a laptop and mobile phone chargers, usually are "auto sensing" mains so can be used in either place but you may need a different mains plug or adaptor as wall sockets differ. Look for Input 100v-240v AC 50/60Hz on the external power supply.


----------



## Leonor SM

*Thank you very much.*


Thank you very much for your prompt reply. 
I found on the web the info that mains electricity in Portugal is 230 volts ... I am rather puzzled now... anyway , the problem remains the same. 



coleio said:


> Hi,
> 
> I assume you mean "difference in electric mains" related to using an electrical item from USA in Portugal.
> 
> Mains electricity in Portugal is 240 volt AC at 50 hz mains in the USA is usually 110 volt AC at 60 Hz.
> 
> Fridges, cookers, water heaters from USA cannot be connected directly to the electic mains in Portugal. There are transformers available to convert 240 volt to 110 volt but this gets complicated.
> 
> Items with clocks often use the 50Hz (portugal) or 60Hz(USA) but using a 60Hz clock on 50Hz mains will not keep the right time.
> 
> Items with modern external power supplies, like a laptop and mobile phone chargers, usually are "auto sensing" mains so can be used in either place but you may need a different mains plug or adaptor as wall sockets differ. Look for Input 100v-240v AC 50/60Hz on the external power supply.


----------



## Guest

Leonor SM said:


> Thank you very much for your prompt reply.
> I found on the web the info that mains electricity in Portugal is 230 volts ... I am rather puzzled now... anyway , the problem remains the same.


Hi,

You are right but so am I. 

There are two groups of mains voltages 220, 230, 240 and 110, 115, 120. I think (wikipedia) Portugal officially has 220volt but please read 220, 230 and 240 as the same voltage. 

The voltage you measure at the socket in your house will vary, in the UK the voltage drops when the adverts appear on television as so many people switch in kettles to make tea. If your kettle says 240 volts it is good for a 220 volt supply but do not use it on a 110, 115 or 120 volt supply.


----------



## Leonor SM

Thank you so much, Coleio ! You have been very helpful. Happy New Year !:clap2:



coleio said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are right but so am I.
> 
> There are two groups of mains voltages 220, 230, 240 and 110, 115, 120. I think (wikipedia) Portugal officially has 220volt but please read 220, 230 and 240 as the same voltage.
> 
> The voltage you measure at the socket in your house will vary, in the UK the voltage drops when the adverts appear on television as so many people switch in kettles to make tea. If your kettle says 240 volts it is good for a 220 volt supply but do not use it on a 110, 115 or 120 volt supply.


----------



## kate1717

Thank you for the really helpful advice. This site is great.


----------



## Pintor

*Property deeds and usage*

Hi

I'm new to this forum but I wonder if you can help...

I'm thinking of buying an 2 bed apartment on a small development in the algarve however it's not straight forward. Here's what the agent has told me...

Officially it is currently 2 separate properties registered as follows:

T0 – (Ground floor from street level) Studio apartment which comprises a hall, kitchen, bathroom, sitting room and terrace.

Basement – (Ground floor on the garden and pool level) 49 m2 for storage.

However when the current vendor bought the apartment the 2 floors were converted to one large 2 bed apartment.

Even though it is still converted I will be purchasing 2 properties - I'm told the interior alterations were made without a building license from the Town Hall, and as no exterior alterations were made this apparently falls within the law. 

I am also told the basement can only be licensed for storage and can’t be changed. How does that affect me using it to live in? I spoke to a lawyer today who said it is ok to live in and it is possible to change the usage to habitation but not straight forward. I guess changing it to habitation would then increase the number of properties on the development and affect service rates etc???

I hope this makes sense and someone may be able to point me in the right direction.

Thanks!


----------



## kevwishy

*Lawyer / Solicitor*



ofilha said:


> In addition to the above, i suggest finding a good lawyer, they are not too expensive but can save you lots of money. Even just talking to one to get some legal advice will be worth the money. There are two benefits to having a lawyer: you gain knowledge of the legal aspects of your purchase and secondly, if there is a problem, you have backup. There are Portugues lawyers but you should find one from a reputable source.


We am looking to buy around the Tomar - Ferreira do Zêzere area mid 2011, are their any Lawyers that come reccomended that we could contact during our viewing trip in March / April time

Regards
Kev


----------



## omostra06

Hi Pintor

I am afraid your lawyer is right. Although there has been no external alterations, internally two properties have been merged. One of which has habitation (from your information) and the other only storage. To increase the size of the habitation would be planning/change of use. It can be complicated to achieve but possible get change to complete habitation, but it takes time, money and can be very frustrating. Alternatively you could maybe look at a property which doesn't have any complications as properties with potential problems do take a long time to sort out and can cause unnecessary stress to you, ultimating colouring your experience of living here. There is after all plenty of properties for sale.

Hi Kevin
If you drop me an email at gekkoportugal I can send you a list of lawyers in Tomar region, whom are reputable.
Regards
Derek


----------



## flashfolly

This is a really useful forum/thread (not sure which?). It should be more prominently displayed on the first page because I'm sure it's advice most newbies (as we seem to be called) need to know about.


----------



## svitska

omostra06 said:


> Hi Chris, no problem, happy to help with any questions you may have about Portugal.


hi derek, do you have a rough figure for how much legal fees/ solicitor bills etc are for buying land in portugal? 

thank you,
paul


----------



## omostra06

svitska said:


> hi derek, do you have a rough figure for how much legal fees/ solicitor bills etc are for buying land in portugal?
> 
> thank you,
> paul


Hi Paul, 
really depends on where in the country you are, Lawyers in Lisbon and the Algarve tend to charge more for their service than other parts of the country, also depends on what is involved in the purchase, how much work the Lawyer needs to do,
Asuming all the paperwork is inorder and its a straight forward purchase, then around 600 euros is about right for the purchase of a property, land / house.

ontop of the Lawyers fee, you have imt tax, (5% for land) (0% to 8% for houses/habitation)

there are also a few other costs like notary fee and a couple of other taxes that the notarty will collect,

land registry 150- 250 euros

As you mention buying land, I will just say that there are a lot of hidden dangers in buying land to build on, lots of things to check out BEFORE buying, of course depending on what you want to do with it.

Hope this helps
Derek


----------



## R666

Do you have something for sale in Lisboa, with a sea View??


----------



## omostra06

R666 said:


> Do you have something for sale in Lisboa, with a sea View??


Take a look in the property for sale section of the forum, you might find something of interest in there


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## omostra06

Just a few words and phrases that may be helpful to house hunters.

Quinta ...Farm 
Moradia... House 
Casa ..House 
Casa Antiga ...Old House 
Casa Rustica ...Rustic House 
Terreno ....Land 
Lote ....Building Plot 
Apartamento ...Apartment 
Venda ....Sale 
Arrendamento ....Rental 
Armazen .....Warehouse 
Predio ....Building 
Lagar ....Oil Press 
Loja ...Shop 
Ruina ....Ruin 
Comercial .....Commercial
Quintinha ...Small Farm 
Herdade ....Large Farm/Estate 
Escritorio ....Office 
Promessa de Compra e Venda .....Promise of Sale and Purchase Contract 
Escirtura ....Completion 
Agentes Imobiliários ....Estate Agents 
Advogada ....Solicitor/Lawyer 
Solicitadore ....Representative 
Numéro Fiscal de Contribuinte ....Tax Card 
Cartão Contribuinte ....Tax Card 
Procuracão ....Power of Attorney 
Certidão de Teor da descrição predial .....Certificate of Land Registry 
Cardeneta Predial ....Deed of Purchase 
Ficha Technica de Habitação ....Technical File for Habitation 
Notário .....Notary 
Alvara .....License to work


----------



## Algarve

*buying a property*

As Derek gives some excellent pointers for those of you who are new to purchasing Property in Portugal. It is also very common for the sale to be handled by just one Lawyer.
It is the Buyers right to choose the lawyer, and not the seller, unlike the UK, this would be seen as what is called conflict of interest. it is not allowed by the law society, But in Portugal if you have the one lawyer it speeds up the process by ¾ of the time, you must also have a official recognized translator at the notary on the day of the deed ( the final stage of purchase), When you sell your property it is also Portuguese Law that you inform your neighbors of any such sale. This law is not take so serious today, as an estate agents board can be seen as informing your neighbor : if your seller desires his own Lawyer then 2 parties are involved in the sale process. All the best


----------



## omostra06

Thanks for your input Algarve, 
but just to clarify a little on the points you make.

It is not a legal requirement for any party to employ a Lawyer to handle the sale or purchase of property in Portugal.
most agents recommend that overseas buyers do employ a Lawyer to help them, but this is not because its legally required, more to do with helping with translation and helping guide them through a sale process that they are not familiar with.

The seller of a property does not need to employ a Lawyer, in fact I have never heard of a seller employing a Lawyer unless they will be absent from the escritura and give a power of attorney to a Lawyer (anyone can be given power of Attorney not just Lawyers, to act on your behalf at a sale)

so the norm in portugal, is no lawyers involved in property sales, its mostly overseas buyers that use them, even as an overseas buyer you can buy a property without using a Lawyer. you do save some money (approx 600 euros) but you do need to do some leg work.

The Law that you mention about informing your neigbours, 
THis is not compulsary on about 80% of sales, it only applies to property that contains a rustic section, (land only) All neigbours ( with boundries touching the plot) must be informed/offered the land at the same value as the agreed sale price. If you are just buying a house, villa with land on one deed then you dont have to offer it to anyone. only if its a piece of rustic land.
It is the owners responsibility to inform the neigbours if this law applies to the plot they are selling.
as a buyer its easy to know if this applies to a property you are trying to buy, as there will be 2 or more deeds, (or one if you are just buying land)


----------



## Algarve

*your reply*



omostra06 said:


> Thanks for your input Algarve,
> but just to clarify a little on the points you make.
> 
> It is not a legal requirement for any party to employ a Lawyer to handle the sale or purchase of property in Portugal.
> most agents recommend that overseas buyers do employ a Lawyer to help them, but this is not because its legally required, more to do with helping with translation and helping guide them through a sale process that they are not familiar with.
> 
> The seller of a property does not need to employ a Lawyer, in fact I have never heard of a seller employing a Lawyer unless they will be absent from the escritura and give a power of attorney to a Lawyer (anyone can be given power of Attorney not just Lawyers, to act on your behalf at a sale)
> 
> so the norm in portugal, is no lawyers involved in property sales, its mostly overseas buyers that use them, even as an overseas buyer you can buy a property without using a Lawyer. you do save some money (approx 600 euros) but you do need to do some leg work.
> 
> The Law that you mention about informing your neigbours,
> THis is not compulsary on about 80% of sales, it only applies to property that contains a rustic section, (land only) All neigbours ( with boundries touching the plot) must be informed/offered the land at the same value as the agreed sale price. If you are just buying a house, villa with land on one deed then you dont have to offer it to anyone. only if its a piece of rustic land.
> It is the owners responsibility to inform the neigbours if this law applies to the plot they are selling.
> as a buyer its easy to know if this applies to a property you are trying to buy, as there will be 2 or more deeds, (or one if you are just buying land)


 Thank you for making the point more clearer, I should have made my comment more precise, as this is an Expats Forum it was aimed more at those thinking of buying a property. Whilst I was aware, that you do not need a Lawyer to Purchase property in Portugal. you have to be a brave Person and undertake such a tasks in a strange country, you know little about. As well as the points you make, very few people also are aware that Portugal has a law that requires any purchase of agricultural land. unless married you are required to apply to the Agricultural Minister for your request, this normally take 4 weeks for approval , this law was brought in to stop properties becoming owned by to many family relatives, which often leads to the properties sitting empty until it becomes a ruin.
Also when you are a foreign national, quiet often the caderneta (deed) is often just put in the males name when not using a lawyer, as they are not sure of the married status, as to equal rights if divorce ever comes into question. Even when both names are entered on the final deed of sale does not always mean it gets entered on to the Caderneta. However, rest assured both parties owe it. All the best


----------



## omostra06

Getting the right location when you move to Portugal is vitally important to ensure you attain the lifestyle you hope to achieve. 

Although it can be an exhilarating thought to move to a foreign country, getting the right location is imperative to ensure you enjoy your new lifestyle to the full. 

Unlike your home country where jobs and family may have tied you to certain locations, when you look to live in Portugal you will probably not be confined by these restraints. Though initially this can be very liberating as you scour the internet for properties for sale, it can also make the process more difficult in the longer term trying to narrow down your search. 

Though a relatively small country, Portugal is a land of contrast, from the rocky coves and beaches of the Algarve in the south; the flat, open plains of the Alentejo; lush green hills and valleys of the central region; remote moor land of the Tras-o-Montes to the terraced, rain soaked hills of the Minho to the north all with something special to offer prospective home buyers.

After all if you have always had hectic social life, which you enjoy, moving to a remote rural area with only elderly Portuguese neighbours may not provide the stimulus you are looking for. Equally if you enjoy your own company and are keen to be closer to nature and wish to attempt a more self-sufficient lifestyle purchasing a property in a tourist resort area may not be the best idea.

But before you fall in love with a property on screen try to map out what will be most important to you when you live in Portugal as this will help you choose the right region of Portugal to suit these needs.

By categorising the needs of your new home in Portugal you will be able to eliminate certain regions quite quickly and although you may have spotted what looks like the perfect property on the Internet there try keep yourselves grounded.

If you will be having friends and family visiting on regular occasions once you have settled into your new home, being within easy driving reach of an airport will be significant. You may think this to be important initially, but you may change your mind after the third, four hour round trip to the airport to pick up your guests. 

This is especially important if you are going to try and earn an income from your future property with paying guests also visiting. Accommodation locations which are further from the airports and with fewer attractions can and do struggle to entice visitors and often have to charge considerably less than other venues simply to fill beds.

Additionally if you do not drive remember although Portugal has good public transport links in less populated areas these will be more infrequent than you may expect and could lead to a feeling of isolation very quickly.

One point to keep in mind when you are trying to find the perfect region of Portugal to relocate to is weather and the climate. Portugal is much like any other country with a varied weather pattern and although the winters may be a lot warmer than other Northern European countries, temperatures can plummet during the winter months in some areas. 

For example in the more northerly regions of Portugal (Minho, Douro and Tras-o-Montes) the temperature can be up to 6-8 degrees different to the more southerly regions during the winter and summer. Then again if you don't enjoy excessive heat you may want to rethink looking at the Alentejo, which can reach the mid 40s during the long, summer months.

If you are looking to move to Portugal to enjoy a warmer climate in both the summer and winter remember the northerly regions of the country, though with beautiful scenery and many historic towns and cities to explore do experience severe weather conditions than the rest of the country with more rain and snow during the winter months.

You may be counting down the months, weeks and days until you move to Portugal, but it best to take your time. If you can, rent in the different regions you have focussed your search in as this will give you time to decide whether or not it is right for you. 

Don't rush into, or be rushed or pushed into purchasing a property and although you will be keen to start your new life in Portugal getting it right the first time will help ensure you have many happy years in your new home.


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## omostra06

If it is not possible for you to be present to sign the Escritura, when purchasing your property in Portugal, you may grant someone *power of attorney *(Procuração) to act on your behalf. 

The easiest way to grant a power of attorney is whilst you are in Portugal at the Notary's office. Otherwise the power of attorney can be prepared by the Portuguese Consulate in your country of residence, or by a local notary, but in this case it must be accompanied by a Notary Certificate of Apostille of the Hague Convention and translated into Portuguese.


----------



## PaulandSue

*Trying to communicate with Derek*

Hi
Trying to communicate directly with Derek......advise please?? Through Gekko or Chavetejo??
thanks
PaulandSue


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*



PaulandSue said:


> Hi
> Trying to communicate directly with Derek......advise please?? Through Gekko or Chavetejo??
> thanks
> PaulandSue


Try

(just removed the link as i have listed my email below, Derek)

Peter


----------



## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi Moderators

There seems a little confusion over Email addresses could someone come on and explain what can and can't be done. It would be nice to have the position made clear. Also explain to new members about the need to post a number of times before the PM system works.

The email i posted was not a valid email address. 

Peter


----------



## jojo

PETERFC said:


> Hi Moderators
> 
> There seems a little confusion over Email addresses could someone come on and explain what can and can't be done. It would be nice to have the position made clear. Also explain to new members about the need to post a number of times before the PM system works.
> 
> The email i posted was not a valid email address.
> 
> Peter



E-mail addresses are not allowed simply cos if you use the correct format, then there are "computery spybot things" that come along and take them and send them masses of spam and viruses! Secondly, even if its not a correct e-mail format, you never know who is replying. This is an open forum and open to the world. Anyone can pretend they are answering you - fine in some cases, but not always. So we simply say "no e-mail addresses" and suggest people use the PM facility, you can exchange e-mail addresses privately and with a little more security. You can access the PM facility afte you have made a minimum of 5 good/genuine posts - that again is to protect members from spam etc!

Jo xxx


----------



## ofesia

*Lawyers fee*



omostra06 said:


> Hi Paul,
> really depends on where in the country you are, Lawyers in Lisbon and the Algarve tend to charge more for their service than other parts of the country, also depends on what is involved in the purchase, how much work the Lawyer needs to do,
> Asuming all the paperwork is inorder and its a straight forward purchase, then around 600 euros is about right for the purchase of a property, land / house.
> 
> ontop of the Lawyers fee, you have imt tax, (5% for land) (0% to 8% for houses/habitation)
> 
> there are also a few other costs like notary fee and a couple of other taxes that the notarty will collect,
> 
> land registry 150- 250 euros
> 
> As you mention buying land, I will just say that there are a lot of hidden dangers in buying land to build on, lots of things to check out BEFORE buying, of course depending on what you want to do with it.
> 
> Hope this helps
> Derek


Hi Derek,
we just put an offer for a property in Lagos and i'm being told lawyers fee are always at least 1% of the property value. to me sounded a bit high and tried to reduce but they said this is actually a favour of the agency referring us, otherwise we would be paying up to 2%. Do you have a lawyer in Lagos that you can recommend with a more sensible fee?
many thanks
ofesia


----------



## omostra06

It does sound like it could be a little exspensive, although maybe thats what they charge down there.
Cant help with specific lawyers in that region, best thing is just try emailing or calling a few, get an idea what they would charge you. (look in phone book online for contacts)
Here in central Portugal it costs anywhere between 500-700 euros for the full service. they never ask a percentage fee.
Dont forget that its you that gets to pick your lawyer, not your agent.


----------



## ofesia

omostra06 said:


> It does sound like it could be a little exspensive, although maybe thats what they charge down there.
> Cant help with specific lawyers in that region, best thing is just try emailing or calling a few, get an idea what they would charge you. (look in phone book online for contacts)
> Here in central Portugal it costs anywhere between 500-700 euros for the full service. they never ask a percentage fee.
> Dont forget that its you that gets to pick your lawyer, not your agent.


many thanks for the fast reply.


----------



## omostra06

ofesia said:


> many thanks for the fast reply.


No problem hope you get sorted.


----------



## coco

*property buying*

hello
does your expertise contain information about plots of land to rent/buy with the purpose of siting a mobile home/static caravan with wheels. size: 9 metres x 3.5. this would be for permanent living. 
thank you


----------



## omostra06

coco said:


> hello
> does your expertise contain information about plots of land to rent/buy with the purpose of siting a mobile home/static caravan with wheels. size: 9 metres x 3.5. this would be for permanent living.
> thank you


some councils are easier going than other on the subject of caravans for permanent living, generally if your going to live in a structure full time as your main residence then it requires planing permission and all the correct upto date building regs applied to it, (mains water, electric, septic tank, double glazing, cavity walls, etc etc etc) obviously caravans wouldnt meet the planning requirements. some people do manage to live in caravans, wooden cabins etc, without applying for permission and dont get caught or have any problems, others get fined and told to remove the structure, or stop living in it, I think a lot depends on where you are and if its seen by neigbours, council etc.

You are allowed to store a caravan on your land without any permission, its just the living in it bit that gets people in trouble with the authorities.
regards
Derek


----------



## akander

*sellers agent fee*

How much and who pays it? I saw a site that said the purchaser pays the sellers agent fee and was a little perplexed by that. What's standard?

Regards
Adam


----------



## eleven

Hi, 

I'm just about to buy a place in Portugal and have a few questions about the timings of events. I also have a specific question for Derek but that might have to wait until I complete my first 5 posts... 

I'm having to do the promessa from the UK and wondering at what stage I would have to transfer the initial 10% and also the taxes and other fees.

Derek, I hope you don't mind if I try to contact you by other means.

Thanks


----------



## omostra06

If you are signing a Promessa in the uk, then you would normaly leave the deposit with your lawyer, you would sign the promessa and return it to the lawyer, he would then get the owners to sign it then hand over the deposit.

You dont really want to part with any money unless its signed by the owners, also they could sign it then send it to you to be signed then you would release the deposit, but most owners will not do this as they are signing to say they have received the deposit, when they have not, so if the buyer didnt pay, it would be a problem because they signed to say he has.

Are you using a lawyer?

The IMT tax needs to be paid before you complete the purchase, normally same day or day before.(if IMT applies to the property)
notary fees are after the signing, most lawyers will ask for their fee after all the work is done, but I suppose some may ask for a part before or during the process.

standard promessa contract is 3 months to completion, this means you can complete at anytime that suits buyer and seller during this period, some people choose to go straight to completion and avoid doing the promessa, this saves time and money. but is only an option if your finances are in order.

Iam happy to answer any questions you may have related to the buying process.


----------



## omostra06

akander said:


> How much and who pays it? I saw a site that said the purchaser pays the sellers agent fee and was a little perplexed by that. What's standard?
> 
> Regards
> Adam


Estate agents can only charge one fee for selling a property, this can be to the owner/seller or to the buyer, although its almost unheard of that an agent will charge the buyer the fee. its illegal to try and charge both.

What you may come across is people selling property illegally, these are not regisitered agents, so what they do is they say they will help find you a property, handle the sale and charge you a fee. quite often the property owners just belive its a private sale, as its not them paying the bill.

The law says that to show property or negiotiate the purchase and handle the paperwork and then charge anyone a fee you must have a license from INCI (governing body for estate agents) easy way to find out if who you are dealing with is legal is look for their ami number, if they dont have one they are not estate agents.

If you are using a licensed agent and they have told you that you are expected to pay their fee, i would be careful, maybe they are charging both. 

Many properties are advertised by several agents, maybe another agent in that region has the same property for sale, look on the web, or in the agents offices to see if you can find it. you may get a better purchase price buying through a different agent


----------



## eleven

omostra06 said:


> ... they are signing to say they have received the deposit....


You hit the nail on the head - that's what I was trying to ask. Thanks.

I suppose I'm getting nervous about sending the deposit without anything signed, despite using a lawyer.


----------



## eleven

As a follow up question... how does the final payment normally work? 

Does it take place during, after or before the signing at the Notary? And should it be made with a banker's draft, a transfer between buyer and seller directly, or should this be handled by the lawyer (buyer to lawyer, lawyer to seller)?

Thanks


----------



## jojo

eleven said:


> As a follow up question... how does the final payment normally work?
> 
> Does it take place during, after or before the signing at the Notary? And should it be made with a banker's draft, a transfer between buyer and seller directly, or should this be handled by the lawyer (buyer to lawyer, lawyer to seller)?
> 
> Thanks



I've heard that you take a carry bag of cash (which you arrange to pick up from the bank) to the notary and then you sign!?!?

Jo xxx


----------



## omostra06

eleven said:


> As a follow up question... how does the final payment normally work?
> 
> Does it take place during, after or before the signing at the Notary? And should it be made with a banker's draft, a transfer between buyer and seller directly, or should this be handled by the lawyer (buyer to lawyer, lawyer to seller)?
> 
> Thanks


The notary will reach a part in the process where he asks if payment has been made, at this point you or your lawyer(if your not there and are using a POA) will hand over a cheque visado, this is a bankers draft, made out ot the owner. you can also pay by bank transfer, although this is less common, but if you do decide to do a transfer, it will have to be arranged and the details agreed with the owners before going to the notary.

as Jo mentions, you can pay in cash too, but this is very unusual and would have to be agreed with all parties including Notary before going to completion.

Sometimes people will pay part in cash, and underdeclare the value of the property, this is illegal and has no benifit at all to a buyer, as you will incure higher CGT tax when you sell, Not worth the risk!


----------



## eleven

omostra06 said:


> The notary will reach a part in the process where he asks if payment has been made, at this point you or your lawyer(if your not there and are using a POA) will hand over a cheque visado, this is a bankers draft, made out ot the owner. you can also pay by bank transfer, although this is less common, but if you do decide to do a transfer, it will have to be arranged and the details agreed with the owners before going to the notary.
> 
> as Jo mentions, you can pay in cash too, but this is very unusual and would have to be agreed with all parties including Notary before going to completion.
> 
> Sometimes people will pay part in cash, and underdeclare the value of the property, this is illegal and has no benifit at all to a buyer, as you will incure higher CGT tax when you sell, Not worth the risk!



Thanks Derek - I guess I will have to sort out a method of transfer with the seller before the time comes. It would be pretty embarrassing to have found this out during the signing....


----------



## omostra06

eleven said:


> Thanks Derek - I guess I will have to sort out a method of transfer with the seller before the time comes. It would be pretty embarrassing to have found this out during the signing....


if you plan to be at the signing, better to transfer your funds into your portuguese bank,(takes around 4 days) then draw out a bankers draft, and pay with that its easier. 
if your not going to be there and have a lawyer signing for you, then you can also transfer the funds to the lawyers client account and he will pay with a cheque.


----------



## Hrafn

*Hi Derek*

An interesting read through all the pages on house purchase I must say.

One question, I am a builder and would like to build my own house but I am under the impression that I would not be unable to do this because of a law which is in place requiring a builders permit or/and reg No. 
Am I right in thinking I would have to sit back and watch a Portuguese builder build (or renovate) any house I purchase? 

Hraf


----------



## canoeman

" I would not be unable to do this because of a law" presume you really mean I would not be *able* to do this because of a law

In which case the answer is B]Yes[/B], you would have to sit back and watch a Portuguese builder build (or renovate) any house you purchase, you might be able to arrange to work alongside him, but Portuguese methods of building are probably quite removed from your own experience.

Renovate is a different thing, but if it requires a _project_ then the same applies to the _project element_ as a house build.

Having the necessary Builders Licence is not just a matter of registering, but also having the required workforce, insurances, certificates, owning the correct plant etc,etc for the type of build work.


----------



## Hrafn

Thanks canoeman for the kind reply..yep I did mean able..
So as I understand it, I would need a guy to fully build a rustic property for me as well as a house that only needs a few alterations..
I have been building for 30 years in 5 countries on 2 continents, nothing ive seen done in Portugal would phase me so there is no concern there. 
I am a Euro qualified builder so I should be able to get the necessary docs to be able to build I guess. 

Hraf


----------



## canoeman

For a fully build house yes, rustic or otherwise, renovation depends on alterations, if you require planning permission for a build or alterations then you need a builder.
The actual licence although in your name is only given to a correctly registered builder who has to prove he has all the correct insurances etc etc.
As I said it's not just about registering but also having the required plant, etc etc, so for a 1 off is an expensive option, with current state of housing market also unrealistic to start a business 
If you want an idea of complexity of Registering look here
Construção


----------



## ofesia

*issues buying a property in portugal*



omostra06 said:


> Anyone thinking of buying a property in Portugal and want to know your way around the paperwork, here are a few pointers that may help you avoid problems.
> 
> 
> In the old urban cardenetas(deeds) if it is a house for habitation it will be written *Casa de Habitacao. *
> If is a new type cardeneta (deeds) there is one part which says Afectacao: (Here will be written) *Habitacao.*
> 
> If it is garage it will say *garagem*.
> If it is for storage building it will say *Arrumos*.
> If it is a warehouse it will say *armazem*.
> If it is for commercial use it will say *comercial*.
> If it is an old oil press factory it will say *lagar. *
> 
> The most important thing on a deed, old or new, is if it doesnºt say *casa de habitacao or habitacao *then it is not a building for living in.
> 
> it is possible to buy any of these types of properties and live in them should you choose to. However it will never be a legal house and if you came to sell it you would not be able to sell it as a house and any potential buyer would not be able to secure a mortgage on it. unless you carry out a project to allow change of use.
> 
> Before you purchase any property in Portugal is it essential to ensure all the relevant documentation is up to date and present for the Escritura.
> *Cardeneta Predial*
> This is a document (obtained from the Fiscal department of the Finanças) detailing the property's size, location, boundaries and a brief description. In some cases there maybe a drawing outlining the plot size and buildings.
> 
> *Certidão de Teor*
> Is a document showing if there are any outstanding debts on the property and if the property is registered in the seller's name. some times it can take a while for debts to be logged and it is advisable to instruct your solicitor to check with the Conservatória do Registo Predial (land registry office) on the day of completion to ensure the property is free from debt.
> 
> *Proof of Payment of IMT*
> To complete a purchase of a property in Portugal you will need to provide proof of payment of IMT (for properties with a sale value above 87,500€) to the notary.
> 
> *Identification documents*
> Both the buyer and seller must be able to produce identification documents (identity card and/or passport) as well as their tax numbers for the Escritura in Portugal.
> 
> *Licença de Habitação*
> Any property constructed as a habitable dwellings after 17th August 1951 must have a Licença de Habitação (habitation licence). Properties intended as habitable dwellings constructed prior to 1951 must have a certificate from the local Câmara indicating this.
> 
> *Ficha Technica de Habitação*
> Houses built or altered after 1 January 2003 in Portugal are required by law to have a Ficha Technica de Habitação. This document contains information about the property including builder details, materials used and so on.
> 
> *Energy Certificate*
> A new requirment from Jan 09, a certificate that is prepared by an Engineer to give a detailed report on the property.


hi
thank you for this very useful guide to buying a property in Portugal. I wanted to get your advice if possible regarding an issue we have with our property we just bought in Portugal. Our lawyer signed the final deed without all of the conditions we asked to be met before signing. We basically as part of the final round of negotiations have asked the seller to do a number of changes in the house and we sent drawing to explain in detail what we wanted. Our lawyer and the agent said that the seller accepted the changes and for the past two months before the signing date both the lawyer and the agent have confirmed everything has been done as requested. The final deed was signed to weeks ago and we visited the property last weekend only to found that nothing was done. We called our lawyer and asked what happened and we were told that this is unexpected and that the lawyer thought that everything has been done and that he trusted the agent who confirmed the work has been done. So in other words the lawyer is blaming the agent, agent who obviously does not answer the phone anymore. I guess my question is what legal weight emails have, because everything we negotiated through our lawyer was done by email. The lawyer seems to decline any responsibility. Needless to say that trustworthiness has been from the beginning and is under question mark. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Sia


----------



## Wannabe Expat

*Tips for Home Buyers*



omostra06 said:


> A few tips to think about when looking for a property in Portugal.
> 
> 
> 1 Take your time. Don’t rush into signing a promessa contract until you are sure the property and location are completely suitable for your needs.
> 
> 2 Take off the ‘rose coloured glasses’. Remember not to do anything you won’t back in the United Kingdom. If something seems a little out of the ordinary seek independent advice.
> 
> 3 Make a checklist of requirements you want from your property in Portugal. If you are looking to retire and live abroad take into consideration proximity of local amenities. If it a holiday house you are looking for – is an airport important?
> 
> 4 Ensure the legal owner is selling the property you wish to buy and that what is advertised is what is being sold.
> 
> 5 Ensure on the day you sign for the property the property is clear from any debt. Mortgages and debts are registered to a property in Portugal. Until you register the property in your name debt can be added and it is up to you to pay it off.
> 
> 6 If you like a property, talk to the locals. They are a great source of information and will be glad to assist.
> 
> 7 Visit the property more than once and at different times of the day. What looks great in the evening sun, may not first thing in a morning.
> 
> 8 Location of your property is important. If you are looking at a property close to water (river, lake, stream etc) please note it does rain in Portugal and water levels can rise dramatically within hours. Remember if you are viewing a property in the spring or summer, it does rain in Portugal during the autumn and winter. What looks like a cute rock garden, could turn out to be a dry river bed.
> 
> 9 Under declaring. When you are purchasing a property in Central Portugal beware of under declaring the property’s’ true value when signing at the Escritura. The practice is illegal and it could cost you dearly when, and if, you come to sell. You will be liable to pay tax on a property if you make a profit from its sale.
> 
> 10 Register your property and land as quickly as possible following the final signing. Until you register the property in your name previous owners can still lodge debt against the property.


Hi - Is there no system in Portugal like in the UK where you do a Land Registry search which gives priority for a fixed period during which no dispositions of the property can be registered in priorty to the buyer's transfer of the property?

The system you have outlined above sounds a bit haphazard and unless the lawyer registers the buyer's transfer on the same day as completion, there is still a risk that the seller can register a mortgage before the transfer is registered.

I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks


----------



## canoeman

No there isn't, and if an owner *wanted or tried to register a mortgage* then that has to be done *firstly* at the Conservatoria, before the lenders would proceed with the mortgage, so effectively is the same as UK 


Conservatoria is the Portuguese Public Record office so similar to UK Land Registry, but registers everything from cars to land, property, boats, wills etc


----------



## Wannabe Expat

Thanks Canoeman. Am currently considering whether Spain or Portugal is a better bet to retire to but am concerned about inheritance tax in Spain and whether private health care is needed (or essential to get residence card) for Portugal


----------



## canoeman

Portugal recognizes your country of birth as regards Law on Succession, so you can leave assets as you would in UK *you therefore do not* have to follow Portuguese Law of Succession. You should though make a Will in Portugal.

Providing you register your Residence then you are entitled to the same Health care and costs as a Portuguese National. If your of official UK state retirement age then it's even easier.

Buying in Portugal is far safer than Spain.


----------



## Wannabe Expat

*Tips for home buyers + relocating to Portugal*

Thanks Canoeman. I've been doing some research on line and the tax rules in Spain mean that if you count as a resident for tax purposes then any assets you have in the UK (such as your house if you choose to keep it and rent it out) would be subject to the Spanish inheritance tax rules. this would mean our son would effectively lose most of his inheritance as he lives in London not Spainl.

I'm beginning to think that Portugal is a better bet but have only been to the Algarve (which is way too expensive and touristy) and Lisbon.

Yes I am of UK retirement age so I know I would need to produce an S1 from the UK to get cover in Portugal. My husband is younger than me so would have to get a 'dependent' S1 to be covered.

Have no idea where to start looking really. would prefer a town rather than right out in the countryside in case we have to stop driving at some time. Would also like somewhere with considerably better weather than the UK!


----------



## canoeman

Not the same here, your UK assets wouldn't form part of your Portuguese assets, but you need to insure that HMRC doesn't classify you as a UK Tax Resident for inheritance tax, which it is perfectly possible to do and maintain.

The other current benefit with Portuguese inheritance tax is that there isn't any for immediate family (spouse, children, parents) and assets left to others only attract 10% Stamp Duty, and there are exemptions as well.

My personal preferences for Portugal would be the Caldas or Coimbra area both of which have nice _suburbs_ or satellite towns, yet good travel links, hospitals, shopping, entertainment.


----------



## Wannabe Expat

*Tips for home buyers - places to relocate to*



canoeman said:


> Not the same here, your UK assets wouldn't form part of your Portuguese assets, but you need to insure that HMRC doesn't classify you as a UK Tax Resident for inheritance tax, which it is perfectly possible to do and maintain.
> 
> The other current benefit with Portuguese inheritance tax is that there isn't any for immediate family (spouse, children, parents) and assets left to others only attract 10% Stamp Duty, and there are exemptions as well.
> 
> My personal preferences for Portugal would be the Caldas or Coimbra area both of which have nice _suburbs_ or satellite towns, yet good travel links, hospitals, shopping, entertainment.


Thanks Canoeman. I have heard of Caldas and Coimbra, but not sure whether we could afford either. The idea is to live off my pension topped up with rent from the UK house (which is very tiny) but we would also have a reasonably sized contingency fund. Do you think we would be able to get a small house or apartment for say 55000 Euros? We have a tiny 2 up 2 down modern semi so are used to small spaces! I thought that Tomar where you are sounded nice as well. I have looked at Portugal before, but was put off by the fact that we may have to pay for medical care.

How do you find learning Portuguese? I have started learning Spanish and am finding it quite easy having done French A level and O Level Latin and a degree in German! Everyone says Portuguese is really difficult to learn.


----------



## canoeman

Cheaper than Algarve,, think you might find budget a bit tight at 55,000. Suggest looking at the 
Casa.Sapo.pt - Portal Nacional de Imobiliário just to get an idea of what's available.

Medical care is different to UK in that you pay a subsided rate for appointments, medication and treatment with certain illness qualifying for free treatment. You can also recover a % against tax return whether you pay any or not.

Portuguese language from hell, find I just can't apply myself enough but overall don't have any great problems.


----------



## Wannabe Expat

*Price of Property in Portugal*

Hi Canoeman

It seems property in Portugal is quite a bit dearer than in Spain. I have found a llot of flats and even townhouses in the old town part of Oliva for around the 55,000 Euro mark and for 40,000 Euros you can currently get a really decent spacious flat. - and that's the asking price not necessarily what the seller will get. I have found a couple of small houses for 55,000 in Portugal but they tend to be in villages with no facilities which is not ideal for retired people who may have to give up driving at some time in the future.


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## canoeman

Spanish buy in Portugal because it's cheaper, but personally think your budget of 55,000€ a bit unrealistic, you also have to budget for buying costs which depends on how you go about it.
Stamp Duty is 0.8% of purchase price, providing price is below 92,407€ IMT is 0%, where you can save money is buying is by using the Casa Pronto or Balcao Solictors for the Escritura, your other costs are Registration at Conservatoria appox 3-450€, and solictor. 

You'll find property below 55th but as you say they'll be in rural areas. 
When your searching the T1 etc is double bedrooms so 1 bedroom T1, T1+1 would be I double 1 Single.


----------



## Kolibri

omostra06 said:


> Getting the right location when you move to Portugal is vitally important to ensure you attain the lifestyle you hope to achieve.
> 
> Although it can be an exhilarating thought to move to a foreign country, getting the right location is imperative to ensure you enjoy your new lifestyle to the full.
> 
> Unlike your home country where jobs and family may have tied you to certain locations, when you look to live in Portugal you will probably not be confined by these restraints. Though initially this can be very liberating as you scour the internet for properties for sale, it can also make the process more difficult in the longer term trying to narrow down your search.
> 
> Though a relatively small country, Portugal is a land of contrast, from the rocky coves and beaches of the Algarve in the south; the flat, open plains of the Alentejo; lush green hills and valleys of the central region; remote moor land of the Tras-o-Montes to the terraced, rain soaked hills of the Minho to the north all with something special to offer prospective home buyers.
> 
> After all if you have always had hectic social life, which you enjoy, moving to a remote rural area with only elderly Portuguese neighbours may not provide the stimulus you are looking for. Equally if you enjoy your own company and are keen to be closer to nature and wish to attempt a more self-sufficient lifestyle purchasing a property in a tourist resort area may not be the best idea.
> 
> But before you fall in love with a property on screen try to map out what will be most important to you when you live in Portugal as this will help you choose the right region of Portugal to suit these needs.
> 
> By categorising the needs of your new home in Portugal you will be able to eliminate certain regions quite quickly and although you may have spotted what looks like the perfect property on the Internet there try keep yourselves grounded.
> 
> If you will be having friends and family visiting on regular occasions once you have settled into your new home, being within easy driving reach of an airport will be significant. You may think this to be important initially, but you may change your mind after the third, four hour round trip to the airport to pick up your guests.
> 
> This is especially important if you are going to try and earn an income from your future property with paying guests also visiting. Accommodation locations which are further from the airports and with fewer attractions can and do struggle to entice visitors and often have to charge considerably less than other venues simply to fill beds.
> 
> Additionally if you do not drive remember although Portugal has good public transport links in less populated areas these will be more infrequent than you may expect and could lead to a feeling of isolation very quickly.
> 
> One point to keep in mind when you are trying to find the perfect region of Portugal to relocate to is weather and the climate. Portugal is much like any other country with a varied weather pattern and although the winters may be a lot warmer than other Northern European countries, temperatures can plummet during the winter months in some areas.
> 
> For example in the more northerly regions of Portugal (Minho, Douro and Tras-o-Montes) the temperature can be up to 6-8 degrees different to the more southerly regions during the winter and summer. Then again if you don't enjoy excessive heat you may want to rethink looking at the Alentejo, which can reach the mid 40s during the long, summer months.
> 
> If you are looking to move to Portugal to enjoy a warmer climate in both the summer and winter remember the northerly regions of the country, though with beautiful scenery and many historic towns and cities to explore do experience severe weather conditions than the rest of the country with more rain and snow during the winter months.
> 
> You may be counting down the months, weeks and days until you move to Portugal, but it best to take your time. If you can, rent in the different regions you have focussed your search in as this will give you time to decide whether or not it is right for you.
> 
> Don't rush into, or be rushed or pushed into purchasing a property and although you will be keen to start your new life in Portugal getting it right the first time will help ensure you have many happy years in your new home.




Hello Derek


Have just joined here and would like to thank you for your sound advice 

regards

Jan


----------



## Nignoy

*Thinking of moving*

Hi folks once again, wifey is missing her rellies in UK ,and wants to move to somewhere warm within easy reach of UK, I am 70 wifey is 68 we are both partially disabled,we were pretty set on moving to spain 2 years ago but a family crisis here in Aus put the kybosh on that,we will be looking for rental accomodation first before actually buying, is it better to stay in rental , what are the pitfalls of purchasing, would be grateful for any tips or advice,jl


----------



## canoeman

Hi, I'd suggest you post this question in the main body of the Forum, below the Red envelopes Stickies

Pitfalls of buying really depends on your attitude to renting v ownership, the major consideration with the current EU, worldwide problems is that it's *easy* to buy *difficult* to sell and with the greatest respect to your ages what would either of you do should one pass away? stay or return to UK, plus with renting you could sample different areas of the country as the whim takes you


----------



## Nignoy

omostra06 said:


> Yes we also came to Portugal to retire, take it easy perhaps build a house......
> next thing we knew we were back running businesses....... I think if your the type of person that likes to work, retirement is very hard to do...you try it but before you know it you end up working again......


I retired here in australia 10 years ago, the first couple of years were a nightmare, but then when ever I got the overpowering urge to work, I would crawl into my shaded hammock with a good book and relax till the urge went away


----------



## YeboYebo

*Help on property / Suggestions for a reliable lawyer in Central Algarve*

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum, good to meet you all!

I have been looking for a place in the sun for the last 2 years. Not in a hurry, I have been able to check out many locations and properties. I have found a property that is both within our requirements and financial limits that we like very much. However, there are some points on which I would like your advice:

- the house is still under construction, and is being developed by a private developer. In 2009, he acquired multiple plots and built several houses. He currently owns one finished (but unsold) house and one under development (this is the one we like). 
- When the markets turned south, he stopped the construction work on this house. Structurally it's ready, but there is still a lot to be finished. This has been the case since 2011. He won't continue building until he has a buyer.
- the developer has dropped the price substantially, and at it's current level I am interested to buy. However, there are a number of challenges:

1) there is no full spec list on the finishings or building materials to be used. As the developer has dropped his price, he has every incentive to try to finish the house as cheaply as he can get away with, which of course is not in my best interest. What can I do? Make a full spec list? With the help of a local builder to assess the list and the right materials?

2) I'm not aware of the financial situation of the seller, but with 2 unsold houses and a recession, it may be far from sunny. My ideal situation would be that he finishes the house, and that I will pay him in full after completion. Is that customary in Portugal? Or must there be payments for each stage of completion?

I think it would be best to use a lawyer and/or a local builder to deal with these issues? Could you recommend an English speaking lawyer to assist me? Preferably a lawyer that has high customer satisfaction ratings?

Any other advice you can give me?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## canoeman

1. You should never buy without a detailed contract, the norm in Portugal on finishing is that the builder would allow a "price" for tiles per m2, sometimes per room, you then choose the tiles you want, so lets say your allowance was 10€pm2 and you choose 18€pm2 you'd pay the extra 8€pm2 the same format applies to lots of other fittings like doors, door furniture, switches, plugs, taps etc.
If the build hasn't gone beyond the stage where it's possible you should add, extra sockets where you consider necessary, also extra TV (TV is run in socket to socket here, if you want non Portuguese TV it's better to run single tubes from central point to each room) the tubing for an alarm and central vacuum system (so it's there at any time you might want it).
The same applies to heating
You don't need a builder as such to do this, you get the price he's allowing for these items, see them physically in a showroom and then agree and choose the items you want within the price or select exactly what you reguire.

2. With current crisis *you must make certain you own the property and land *from the outset, so you pay no more than agreed purchase price *less* any amount reguired to finish to agreed standard, and that any stage payments you then make to complete are totally protected and solely for your property.

I would* not* advice just paying him to finish property with stage payments and your solicitor should have *no* connection with the builder, agent etc and preferably not from same town

Without an idea exact where property is no one can recommend a Solicitor, Central Algarve is a bit too vague


----------



## donovan

Canoeman has given you very good advice, I purchased my house the same way but this was years ago these days all good builders have a schedule of prices, quality and a finishing date. Make sure all is clear with the bank, land registry and get a very good lawyer and do not pay out any money to the builder before everything is checked out so your money is safe. It worked out for me ok good luck


----------



## jsmoir

Thanks to everyone who started this forum. Lots of good information.

Cheers!

JS


----------



## Budleigh

*Does Public Maritime Domain own your house?*

Has anyone heard about the Public Maritime Domain law where properties within 50m of the shore line fall under there ownership?

Has anyone had any experience of dealing with this in a property purchase?

Thanks


----------



## canoeman

Believe it's covered by these two Decrees 468/71, 46/94 and relates to a 50mtr deep strip of land from low water line not shoreline but apart from that afraid not, sounds as if a good lawyer required,


----------



## teffle

omostra06 said:


> Getting mains electricity connected to a property in Portugal can be a straight forward procedure, though it can also be a minefield if you do not do the correct research before buying a property without a mains electricity supply.
> 
> Like some other European countries Portugal has differing categories of electricity supply, each with differing rules governing the connection - Agricultural Electricity; Building Work Electricity; Domestic Electricity and Commercial Electricity.
> 
> Unfortunately getting a mains electricity supply connected is not as simple as making a telephone call, as some websites and estate agents will tell you. Many people have fallen into this trap of purchasing a property without a mains electricity supply on the word of the agent ensuring them it is easy to get connected, only to find two years later they still have no electricity supply.
> 
> The Portuguese government, in conjunction with EDP, (Energias de Portugal), have implemented rules governing the new connections of mains electricity to private, habitations as well as commercial properties to ensure all safety regulations are met.
> 
> If a property (habitation) has never had a mains electricity supply and is deemed to be in a sub habitable condition, then the electricity supply will not be connected until the property matches the correct criteria.
> 
> In the case of ruins and ruined property, this will mean submitting a planning application to the local council to make the structural repairs necessary bringing the property up to a habitable condition. This includes a full new electrical system, installation of water inlet and egress pipes, creation of a septic tank, wiring for telephone and broadband capabilities and installation of pipe work for mains gas as well as any structural work which needs to be carried out.
> 
> All of which collectively must meet the building regulations standard laid down by the government. Only after all of this is done, the work approved and the electricity system has been installed and signed off by a registered electrician will the electric company give a connection with a definitive electric metre.
> 
> Another key point to take into consideration is the distance the nearest electrical post is from the property as this can be prove costly. Electrical posts are at most sited 100 metres apart and although you can get the electric metre sited at the edge of your boundary bringing the supply to it can be expensive. To have a post installed by the electric company will cost around 1,000 euros per post. If the nearest post is on the opposite side of the road from your property you will have to have a new post installed to ensure there is enough clearance room beneath for high sided vehicles to pass beneath.
> 
> However if a property has already had an electrical supply then the procedure is much less involved although can sometimes mean the installation of a new consumer unit by a registered electrician.
> 
> If the electric supply is current then it is simply a matter of visiting the main office of EDP (Energias de Portugal) to sign up to a new contract. You will need your identity documents and your fiscal card as well as some proof you are the new owner of the property (ideally a copy of the Escritura). Then the staff within the office will create a new contract for you with a start date for the electricity supply to be changed into your name. When visiting EDP it is advisable to read the existing metre as this will speed up the process.
> 
> Once you have signed the contract you can elect whether to have the electricity bills paid by direct debit with the bills being sent to your Portuguese address. However EDP have also introduced an online billing procedure which can be useful if your property is a holiday home.


more help,just b need a few contacts in the algarve ( country not coast) to talk to about moving there mike


----------



## siobhanwf

Hi Mike and welcome to the Portuguese section expatforum.:welcome:

Why not join in in the forum and ask the question you wish to ask there.


----------



## teffle

*confused of exeter*



siobhanwf said:


> Hi Mike and welcome to the Portuguese section expatforum.:welcome:
> 
> Why not join in in the forum and ask the question you wish to ask there.


sorry me a stupid newcomer,how do I do that? mike:


----------



## margesimpson

Hello Derek! I am sorry I would like to send a PM, but I can't. I have got some question regarding buying property and your agency. May I ask You for PM?
Thank You
Nadya


----------



## Frantel

Hi Derek, thanks for posting this detail information. It is very helpful, but wondering since it was written in 2009, does this information still apply to a current purchase? My wife and I are traveling to the Algarve in June, with the intention of buying a small villa. The property we are interested in, is registered offshore. Do you have any advice for some one who is purchasing a property in the Algarve, which is registered to an offshore company in Medeiros ??


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## canoeman

These days I personally wouldn't touch it, the benefits of an offshore owned property are rapidly disappearing, and your subject to any changes that might be made to ownership of offshore, especially with certain countries. where's Medeiros?
Otherwise Dereks advice is still sound, it's IMT and IMI exceptions that alter but not a great deal


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## Frantel

Many thanks Canoeman! I dont know where Medeiros is either????!!! and dont know how I came up with this name! I was trying to say Madeira, as in Madeira Island. The entity which owns the home we are interested in is registered in this offshore jurisdiction. I presume it is still a Portuguese offshore domicile. I am a little concerned about the property and this offshore stuff bogging things down. It sounds like this will require legal opinions once we get to Portugal. I will let you know how it works out. Thanks again


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## fitzy73london

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster ... 

My wife and I am now in a position where a holiday home is a possibility. I have read the forums a bit but can't see specific answers to these questions, so apologies if I am re-hashing old ground. 

1) We would need approx 50% mortgage for the property. What are the best banks to go with? 

2) Asking price v selling price .. I know this is a very wide area but in general, for say a 2 bed apt in the Eastern Algarve, what is the difference between the two? On say a €200k apt.

Many thanks!


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## canoeman

Prices are supposed to be raising slightly but it's still a buyers market but a least 20% below asking price, 50% mortgage don't think you have a hope in hell, look at bank repossessions that way your more likely to get a mortgage, seriously at 50% you'll need to try every single bank


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## fitzy73london

Thanks for the tips. 

I would probably need only €100k. Our UK house is fully in my wifes name, and I have an income of about stg 80k. Surely I wouldn't be a massive risk to a bank?


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## canoeman

Well all you can do is try, Millennium bcp have a London branch enquire there, just because you earn 80K doesn't really cut a lot of ice depends on your outgoings, house solely in your wifes name doesn't give you any UK collateral if reguired, repayments very very roughly 1900€pm over 5 years, 575€pm over 25 years, don't forget exchange rate variable


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## fitzy73london

canoeman said:


> Well all you can do is try, Millennium bcp have a London branch enquire there, just because you earn 80K doesn't really cut a lot of ice depends on your outgoings, house solely in your wifes name doesn't give you any UK collateral if reguired, repayments very very roughly 1900€pm over 5 years, 575€pm over 25 years, don't forget exchange rate variable


Thanks. All our expenses come out of my wife's salary. My salary is savings / pension. 

Are local banks in Portugal completely not interested?


----------



## canoeman

I didn't say that, I said it would be unlikely, Millennium bcp is a major Portuguese bank with a London branch so easy to contact and ask plus as has been pointed out here all banks have repossessions so in their interest to sell and more likely to give a mortgage on, they might just have the type of apartment you want in the right location


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## fitzy73london

canoeman said:


> I didn't say that, I said it would be unlikely, Millennium bcp is a major Portuguese bank with a London branch so easy to contact and ask plus as has been pointed out here all banks have repossessions so in their interest to sell and more likely to give a mortgage on, they might just have the type of apartment you want in the right location


Thanks for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate the advise.


----------



## DREAMWEAVER1

BPI [Portugese bank]also have a London branch







David


----------



## suejw

Hi,just joined the forum,we are looking to buy a holiday villa in Portugal by Fuzeta,does anybody know roughly about what we would need to obtain by way of licences ect to be able to rent out the villa to holidaymakers in our absence,also any help in how much rates,electric and water prices would vbe very helpful and anything in general we would have to get as far as being able to rent it out and purchase it,thanks


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## siobhanwf

Hi Sue and a very warm :welcome: to Expat Forum

It would be very helpful if you told us what size you holiday home will be


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## canoeman

You would need to apply to your Camara for a AL Licence, there's no fee for it but there is a cost aspect in complying with really very straightforward and simple regulations.

Just a little reality check if the rental income is important to purchase property don't overestimate occupancy and remember that it must be declared for tax here which means you'd pay appox 5% on 20% of the overall income. From 2nd year you might have a NI issue it's something I'm checking on at the moment for Non Residents

Without details of property virtually impossible to give ideas of cost of rates, water etc

Not being rude but exactly what do you know about purchasing property in Portugal, might be easier to answer your question with that information


----------



## suejw

*Villa*

Thanks so much for the replies,we are looking to buy a 3/4 bed property it has no pool at present but we have looked into buying a pool,we have looked into how much sort of rental we could achieve but just unsure of what a rough idea of outgoings would be,I have been quoted by somebody about maintaining and looking after the villa,meet and greet,cleaning ect for around €500 a month at the busiest times of the year but have no idea about water charges electric costs licensing,we want to buy to let and then eventually retire to Portugal.


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## canoeman

Well licensing doesn't cost anything on a yearly basis.
Average water use is something like 520 ltr per day per 5 people + irrigation & pool, water price from Camara or water co.
Electricity? air con, pool will increase costs, but you can see prices at
EDP Serviço Universal 

Whatever you do don't use bottled gas for anything but cooking or instant hot water, insurance you'll need a specialised quote, I'm too out of touch with the Algarve these days but suggest you use Portugal News to get quotes for property management, check your competition on Owners Direct will also give a rough guide to occupancy if you monitor, consider broadband for a competitive edge

Rates (IMI) when you purchase property is generally revalued so you need to find out current VPT value when it was last valued current cost and what new cost might be.

It's ok looking at price of a pool but more important to know you would get permission from Camara to install one, it also increases IMI 

My other suggestion to find out about outgoings is to find a similar property for sale that is used for same purpose and see if seller will supply information if you expressed an interest to purchase otherwise everything will have to be guesstimates


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## suejw

Thank you canoeman for your replies,the information is very much appreciated,can you please tell me if you know anywhere that they sell fly screens and if you know how much as a rough idea what they would cost would be great,my husband is a builder so can do quiet a bit of work himself as long as we know where best to buy materials ect.


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## canoeman

Again out of my area but Portugal News has loads of adverts available online, cost depends on windows and how you'd fit ideally they form an integral part.

Useful site is LeRoy Merlin they have 3 downloadable catalogues that will give you a basic idea of what's available & retail prices but more importantly the names of items, tools, fixtures & fittings, paints, plasters etc etc you might be looking for
Leroy Merlin - Home


----------



## Foradarede

*Loads of questions*

Hi

I have read through the first few pages of this thread, and some elsewhere, and I am finding it very useful. I am a bit dyslexic and easily confused, and so I thought I would just write out about my own situation in the hope of getting some good advice specific to my situation (thank you):

I am in Portugal at the moment, looking for land to buy. I have estimated that approximately 1 hectare of land would be plenty space for all the different food plants I plan to grow: I want to work towards 100% self-sufficiency in food over the next few years.

I am also hoping to live off-grid, but if solar panels are as expensive as 20,000 euros then it might be worth me finding a place that already has electricity connected?

As for the home, I like the stone houses/ ruins that can be found on many land sites, but they do tend to be very small. I was hoping to be able to renovate the house immediately after buying it, live in it for a while, and then build a larger cob house myself about 3 to 5 years later. I would then hope to make use of the stone house as perhaps a kitchen/food processing área with sleeping space upstairs (presuming that the house is a two-storey).

I also wanted the land to include a second smaller stone ruin that could be renovated to be used as storage.

If there was a third stone building, then I would plan to use the stone as the foundation for the cob house.

Does the stone house already have to have had permission for renovation granted by the council before anyone buys it (with a view to renovating it)? If so, can a house that needs renovation that doesn´t already have permission gain permission, and if so how long does this take, and what would make a council decide that it should never gain permission?

Does all the same go for a small barn/storage space?

With regards to the cob house - I see on another thread that new builds would not be approved without a qualified builder? I would not be qualified officially, but I would not attempt to build the house myself without a thorough training and some practise helping people build elsewhere a time or two. I am not the sort that would build without feeling I knew what I was doing. I also would not attempt to build the roof, so I would pay someone else to do that. So would the council consider a cob house if I had the help of an architect, a carpenter/roofer, and all the plumbing and electrical works done by professionals, and myself as doing the rest (foundations and walls)?

(I am told by a Portuguese architect that cob houses do get approval because they are ecological).

Before I even get to building a cob house, I want to be sure that the land I buy now will allow for a future self-build. I understand that planning permission is granted for specific projects and that the permission has a sell-by date, but as I would not want to think about building my cob house until I´d been living on the land for a few years (say 3 to 5 years) I wouldn´t want to pay for a land with planning permission (they are more expensive?) as I wouldn´t make use of the PP. Or would it be better to buy land that has PP as it would help me get PP for a different project in the future? Or does this not make any difference? Is there anything concerning the land that would dictate to the council that PP would not be granted? Is it only land that is classified as ´rustic´that would not gain PP? The architect tells me that I should look for land that is classified as ´urban´ or ´for urban development´, that it should not be situated in forest or near a river. However, I am want land that is more rural and borded by a stream.

If I buy 1 hectare of land now, then I am permitted to have a building with a footprint of 150m2, correct? If there is already a stone house fit for and registered as habitation that has a footprint of say 10m2, then would I only be allowed the new build to measure up to 140m2? And when they say ´footprint´are they referring to the ground floor measurements only, or does the ´footprint´include all the stories above?

Going back to the stone house that I would hope to renovate soon after buying: Would I also need approval if I wanted to have a wooden verandha added to the house exterior, to which I would also have added a compost toilet and shower? If so, how likely would I be to get permission for something like this?

I have rarely seen a traditional stone house that is big enough for three adults to live in it comfortably. If I decided not to do a new build or self-build, then would it be possible to extend a small stone house outwards as well as upwards using traditional stone? About how much would it cost to double or even treble the size of the house?

And is it possible to extend a stone house using a different material, such as cob, straw bale etc?

As for budget, have I got the following correct or not?

- Renovation for a stone house that has its walls intact but requires roof (with skylight window/s), new 1st floor flooring, plus the verandha, compost loo and shower = 20K
- Renovation of a stone building to be used as storage = 3K to 5K
- Modest plumbing + wood burning stove (a pretty good one that heats the water (to be used in the cob house or extended stone house later)) = 7K

I would be very grateful for any guidance please. I want everything to be legal and above board.

Many thanks!!!


----------



## canoeman

You need to carefully read through posts again

I Hectare you need to go back to the drawing board that's 10,000 metre squared for 1 person it's a ridiculous amount of land and far more than 1 person would reguire for self sufficiency or even to be able to keep clear. Ok is a lot down to forest so you have fuel but looking after land of that m2 is a major task.

You don't seemed to have grasped the basics of planning permission in Portugal, it is* virtually impossible for self build of any description* if a ruin or build requires planning permission or a project from the Camara the permission to build will only be granted to a LIcensed builder with correct Licence, Insurance etc, you as an individual can't do it regardless of any expertise you might or might not have.

It is extremely difficult to near impossible to get permission for eco-build projects so very careful research and liaison with a Camara would be necessary for *any* hope of success, the problem is you then come back full circle to the Licenced builder and your chances of finding a builder with necessary licence and eco knowledge pretty slim, no builder no build.

Just because you have land doesn't automatically allow you to build so again it's very careful research to see whether the land would be given permission, I certainly wouldn't buy or invest in anything that I might not get permissions for as you'll never sell it on.

What you should look for is property that requires RENOVATION then it is possible for more DIY, but a cob house extension doubt it, depending on it's current footprint you might or might not get permission to extend but if it is accommodation of any sort then current building regulations apply.


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## Foradarede

Hi Canoeman

Many thanks for getting back to me. Okay, so self-build is off-limits in Portugal. Interesting.

Okay, my other option then is to buy a stone house ruin that I can renovate to my own style and taste. I would have a professional builder do this for me.

I understand that the house has to be registered as a house for habitation. As for renovation, is this a separate permission given by the Camara, or is the permission automatically given if the house is registered for habitation?

If I wanted a professional builder to add a wooden verandah to the house would that require PP, and if so, how likely would I be to be granted PP? Same question goes for wooden structures such as a compost toilet and outdoor shower room.

In a nutshell, I would be safe to look for a stone house ruin registered for habitation that requires renovation, that has electricity connection and accompanying land with plenty of water?

Thanks very much for your help.


----------



## canoeman

If it has a habitation licence or pre 1956 certificate then you would certainly be allowed to re-instate as a habitual dwelling, whether you would need planning permission depends on the current state but if it did then the internals would have to be to current building regs.

Verandah might reguire PP it depends on footprint and permissible area, sorry but it's virtually impossible to give a yes no answer.

My advice is that these are the things you will need to ascertain before you commit yourself to a purchase and as you say you really need a 12 month water source on land, electricity well there are alternatives


----------



## suejw

Can anybody tell me if they have driven to Portugal from the u.k and if so roughly how long and cost of tolls ect


----------



## canoeman

Use this link, generally very accurate as to time and cost, but time is a continuous journey so build in sensible stops etc
ViaMichelin: Michelin route planner and maps, restaurants, traffic news and hotel booking


----------



## suejw

I have seen a previous post about joining the bombaderos,do you have to pay for the fire brigade in the event of a fire.


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## canoeman

No, but you can become a "friend" of the bomberios which obviously helps a predominantly volunteer force and also gives you discounted or other services as they also run the local ambulance service, IMEN is the national emergency ambulance service


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## suejw

Thanks canoeman,your answers are much appreciated,do you have to pay if you are taken to hospital in an ambulance then ?


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## canoeman

Yes and no, but generally no especially in an emergency situation but yes if you abuse it


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## suejw

Thank you for all your help,I am sure I will have lots more to ask,sorry&#55357;&#56846;


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## canoeman

No problem, search function is useful for answers or posting question in main part of forum rather than green area as more people tend to read new questions


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## Foradarede

*book exchange*

Hi Canoeman,

Thanks very much for your reply, above.

I am in the process of looking for a suitable quinta. Fingers are crossed.

In the meantime, I get very bored hanging out on my own, and wondered if there was a book exchange that I could take advantage of. I am in the Viseu district at the mo and the library firstly won´t let me borrow books without me having an address in the área, and anyway they have very little to offer.

Thank you for any info.

Kind regards.


----------



## canoeman

Joining local library requires being a Resident and few will have a large range of English books, you need to try and hook up with the expats in and around Tondela or get a Kindle 1,000's of books available online


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## Foradarede

*Books*

Hi Canoeman,

Thanks for your reply. I will check out Tondela, as I prefer paper reading to electronics that play havoc with my eyesight.

Warm wishes,
Tabitha


----------



## Foradarede

*small business project*

Hi Canoeman,

I hope you don´t mind if I ask you some more questions concerning an idea I have?

My idea is to do as before, buy a ruin or two or three and have them renovated. The house I live in on one floor would include a large kitchen with woodburning stove (a good one) on the other floor from which I could cater for a group of people. The other house/s I could either rent out as self-contained units to renters looking for an individual holiday or long-term stay, or to use as accommodation for visitors attending courses. I would advertise my place to yoga teachers, art teachers etc., who are looking to organize a retreat for themselves and their students, with me providing the accommodation and meals.

I would like to find land that has its own natural swimming area (such as a stream or river) for myself and visitors to cool off in in. I would like to use a reed bed filter system for cleaning greywater, and am looking into the idea of a natural swimming pond. This is not the same as a modern swimming pool and has no need for chemicals, regular water-changing etc.

I also envisage a raised wooden circlular floor with a plant-covered roof which could be used for yoga classes and the like. If there are only two buildings then I would put up good-quality tents to accommodate a group of people.

I would put up outdoor compost toilets and outdoor showers for the guests.

I intend to grow all the food, including grains, for which I will need a threshing floor and storage.

Before I know whether the above is something I could do, I need to know:

1) What land classification I would have to look at to be permitted to do what I believe is called something like an eco-tourism project? 

2) What requirements/paperwork are necessary for a project like this? For example, Health and Safety. Would the natural swimming area need to be assessed, modified etc?

3) How much, very approximately, does it cost to have a builder rebuild/renovate a natural stone building? I know this might be difficult to estimate, but how much would it be if the walls were in good state, and how much if the walls are all caved in and the whole thing has to be rebuilt from virtual scratch? 

Do you know a registered and licensed builder of natural stone that I could show an example to via e-mail and ask for an estimate?

4) Do ponds need planning permission, and specifically natural swimming ponds that visitors would use without a lifeguard present? I see that in Central Portugal there are many praia fluvials which people use at their own risk, so I am assuming having a natural swimming area of some description will not be an issue?

5) I often see that some very ruined ruins are being sold on the internet which state that the buildings can be rebuilt as a new design - for example 4 stone ruins could be rebuilt into two dwellings. Is this likely to be true?

I would be very grateful for any help you can offer in answering all or any of these questions.

Many thanks.
Kind regards,


----------



## canoeman

It's really difficult to give any sort of complete answer as far too many variables
If you just wanted to rent part of your property as B&B or self catering even if these were separate buildings you could do it with a AL Licence providing your property and buildings where legal.

Once you start involving external people, tents, alternative septic tanks etc etc it becomes a totally different project and unless you operated totally under the radar (not advisable these days) then you start going into the realms of a full eco-project holiday complex and then all has to be approved at a number of levels.

Water is a serious issue here so damming or altering a river supply is a no-no, ponds I believe reguire permission in the context you mean, natural pool possible, planning would be reguired depending on construction, you might as an example get away with building a water "cistern" not a pool

Land classification certainly not "protected", Rustica would reguire change of use, problematic and extremely difficult, ideally you'd be looking for a mix of Urban, Rustica, you also need to be careful of new fire regulations in forested areas as this has seriously curtailed what can be renovated or built.

Renovation of buildings or rebuilding very much depends on their Licences at lot of ruins you see to rebuild are " agricultural stores" not habitual buildings so change of use always an issue, costs really impossible to say so much depends on condition, what's reguired, whether project required etc
5. if they've been licensed as habitual dwellings at some time then quite possibly, but needs to be checked and double checked on an individual basis, the big downside to this is that it would reguire a full project and the buildings internally to a major degree must comply with current building regs


----------



## Foradarede

*cost of natural stone rebuild*

Hi Canoeman,

Thank you very much for your reply, and your helpful answers. I appreciate your time and expertise!

I would be so grateful if you would let me know how I can find a builder expert in natural stone building who will give me an estimate on the kind of properties I am looking at buying. I have been told that renovation of a ruin with good walls might be 2 to 5K depending on the quality of the materials, but the other day an estate agent said it would cost between 30 to 40K. This is quite a difference, and although I appreciate it is difficult to give a guide without knowing more about the specific property, I was hoping to find out how much it might be per m2 or something, so that I know what I can go ahead with and what I wouldn´t be able to afford.

Do you know anyone I could ask please?

There is a property I have seen which might fit the bill for what I am looking for, and is classified as ´ecological and reserved´, does that mean I wouldn´t be able to do an eco-tourism project on that?

Sorry, but I am not clear about the land types yet. I have got a list from the PDM which gives 20 different types. None of them mention the word ´protected´ nor ´rustica´, so I am confused about where these two terms are coming from. Do I have a different kind of list to the one you refer to?

One of the land classifications I have on this PDM list is ´Espaços naturais com aproveitamento turístico´, and I suppose I am trying to ascertain what that sort of land could be whilst I am browing the properties for sale, as the land classification is often not mentioned in property ads.

I hope you can help further.

Many thanks.
Kind regards,
Tabitha


----------



## canoeman

Well I doubt you could do very much for 2-3000€ that would about cover the cost of refurbishing a roof or plans etc etc and planning permission approval, the estate agents figure is far more realistic, a ruin with good walls might not require a lot but realistically anything that's described as a ruin will more than likely reguire, new floors, new roof, windows, doors, plumbing, electrics, plastering etc etc

There's always a local builder with the expertise required for older property but you need to specify specific areas and hope a local forum member can advise.

Yes you're correct see below, buying Reserve, Ecological, protected areas is like buying in the National Trust, you hands are tied from day 1.

Five major description of land
Commercial: land that is or designated for industrial use, generally, very unlikely to get permission for any private dwelling.
Reserve/EcologicalProtected) Very unlikely to get permission to build or major alterations to existing property
Agro Florastal: Changes to Fire Prevention Laws in 2007 make it more difficult to get permission to build or alter property in this area, which can also form part of an overall property area.
Rustic (Rustica): Land designated as “farming “ of any description, unlikely to get permission for a house build
Urban (Urbana): Land designated for building

Then as you see from PDM there are subdivisions or areas earmarked for certain types of development like ´Espaços naturais com aproveitamento turístico´ which would certainly be right for you *but* you'd have to follow all procedures to get a project approved, I'd like to say it'd be no problem but you do need to be extremely careful that you would* ultimately* get the required permissions otherwise you could make the investment in the purchase and not be able to fulfill your dreams


----------



## Foradarede

*Thank you!*

Hi Canoeman,

Thank you again for all your help.

I suppose I will have to ask what the land classification is for every type of property that I might be interested in, before viewing.

I am happy to follow/find out more about the procedures and stages of setting up a project like this. It´s not something I will want to do immediately anyway, but I would like to have the option by buying land that is appropriate.

Also helpful to know that rebuild/renovation of a stone ruin could be as much as €40K - this helps enormously with my budgeting!

Thank you so much for being here and helping us clueless people!!! It does save a lot of headache to get answers from you that are honest and accurate!

Warmest wishes,
Tabitha


----------



## canoeman

It's two questions you should ask
1st Does property have
Property Licences & Dates for Habitable dwellings 
Pre 1937: Property built before 1937 does not require a Certificate ( Certidão) from Câmara stating they were built before 17th August 1951.
Pre 1951: Property built before 17th August 1951 requires a Certificate ( Certidão) from Câmara stating they were built before 17th August 1951. 
Property built before 17th August 1951 but renovated after that date requires (if planning, building permission has had to be applied for)
•	Licença de Habitação
•	Licença de Utilizaçao

2nd How's property land described on Escritura or the Conservatoria Predial or Financas Predial

If it says Amazam it's a store, warehouse not a habitable dwelling


----------



## Foradarede

*specific*

Hi Canoeman,

That´s great, thank you! It´s good to have specific advice like this. I have written this down on the front of my notebook so that I can refer to it when I am interested in somewhere to buy.

I thank you once again.

Kind regards,
Tabitha


----------



## rod reese

Buying a home in portugal was super easy for me. I own a new 2 story townhome in Taipas near Guimaraes. My wife is Portuguese and she is from Guimaraes. We looked at the home and about a week later we signed the papers prepared by an attorney who conducted the closing with us and the builder. I make monthly payments of 800 euros to the builder for 2 more years although when I sell a house I own in Wisconsin I will use the proceeds to pay the Taipas house off. There are a variety of purchase options out there but the tips are good ideas. I am a Professional Land Surveyor and am amazed at how many times people "refuse" to do the right thing and cause themselves headaches and financial loss in return.


----------



## Clive&Chris

*2014 Housing Market*



canoeman said:


> Prices are supposed to be raising slightly but it's still a buyers market but a least 20% below asking price, 50% mortgage don't think you have a hope in hell, look at bank repossessions that way your more likely to get a mortgage, seriously at 50% you'll need to try every single bank


Hi, do you, or anyone else, have a feel for how the housing market is this year? We are considering putting an offer in on an apartment in San Martinho do Porto but find it difficult to gauge how the asking price sits against a realistic selling price. Thx


----------



## canoeman

Still think that reports of a recovery in property sales are localised and don't apply across the country, in our area it's still apartments and the really lower end of market that's selling.

That resort always attract a premium because of location, property available etc, if you think it's priced well against similar property then possibly less room for negotiation, if you have an idea why owner wants to sell might give you some leeway to drive a harder bargain especially if your in a position to buy and complete quickly, suggest you start at a 15% deduction and gauge reaction, if it's a private sale the seller is saving 5ish% +23%IVA


----------



## travelling-man

Sales in my particular area seem to be picking up but I don't think prices have improved yet...... From my limited experience, Portuguese sellers usually seem less inclined to drop their asking price as much as ex pat sellers usually are. 

C/Ms suggestion of starting negotiations at around 15% less sounds about right to me but of course, that could drop further depending on what work might need to be done before you can move in.


----------



## Clive&Chris

The place is modern with reasonably fresh decor. Through an agent and told it's competitively priced but of course that's difficult to gauge so a bit of head scratching going on here. Agent is suggesting we just put in an offer but am wondering if should go to a lawyer first for some unbiased advice - opinions??


----------



## travelling-man

You'll need a lawyer for the sale but I don't think you need to use one to put an offer in...... I'd be inclined to do as the agent suggests & just make an offer & perhaps start on the low side but it really depends on the individual seller and how much the sale means them. 

To give you an idea of how unwilling a lot of Portuguese are to take a low offer and/or how different their attitude to sales are: We looked at a nice little place near Pedrogao Grande 2 1/2 years ago and made an offer of about 8% less than asking price. We were turned down flat and told they wanted full asking price......... I've just checked the agent's website and not only is it still on the market but the asking price has increased by over 40%....... to me, that isn't logical but they obviously think otherwise! LOL


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## canoeman

Lawyer are for conveyancing not advice on property prices, do a search on Casa.Sapo.pt - Portal Nacional de Imobiliário with search options you can easily check other apartments in same area, location, type and gauge if price is realistic and agents opion, an offer can only be refused but too low tends to annoy a seller


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## Clive&Chris

Ok, lawyers in Scotland tend to know their local market and price flutuations but then most have their own property depts.

Have been looking online but seems that the San Martinho area is a bit more pricey which means you can't compare s easily with other areas even nearby.

I agree with about a 15% reduction and also with the sentiment that a really low offer could p off the seller - I think they are English.

One person from the agency told us the original selling price of the flat was about 20% higher than current asking - is there any way of checking that?

Not wishing to stereotype the Portuguese (those I know well are wonderful folk) but I think some just dangle properties in front of foreigners and expect to be showered in Euros!


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## canoeman

If you try Casa Sapo the advanced search will narrow specifically to San Martino so you should be able to get comparision.

Think the only way to confirm an older price is if agent is prepared to show you agreement history which is unlikely, but prices have been reducing so quite possible, if you still think overpriced then offer 20% less than asking price and if you are in a position then to complete state it as a sweetener

No doubt there are Portuguese with that attitude but unlikely in the apartment market where it's far more competitive


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## anapedrosa

When we purchased our property 3 years ago, we paid for a property assessment. It was not inexpensive (450€ if I recall). Because it was land, we wanted to make sure not only of ownership, but also of what we could build and we wanted a 3rd party assessment. the engineer who we hired also does bank evaluations. What I like is that he offered us an evaluation of the property value based on previous sales in the area. 
We were able to get a good price from a Portuguese seller, however he needed cash at the time. I think one of the reasons that Portuguese sellers will hold on is they don't necessarily need the cash at the moment, taxes are low and there is a belief that eventually prices will return to what the were at the peak. Not saying they are right, but I do get this feeling.


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## Clive&Chris

anapedrosa said:


> When we purchased our property 3 years ago, we paid for a property assessment. It was not inexpensive (450€ if I recall). Because it was land, we wanted to make sure not only of ownership, but also of what we could build and we wanted a 3rd party assessment. the engineer who we hired also does bank evaluations. What I like is that he offered us an evaluation of the property value based on previous sales in the area.
> We were able to get a good price from a Portuguese seller, however he needed cash at the time. I think one of the reasons that Portuguese sellers will hold on is they don't necessarily need the cash at the moment, taxes are low and there is a belief that eventually prices will return to what the were at the peak. Not saying they are right, but I do get this feeling.


I like the sound of that assessment, I can't quite get my head round buying a property without a survey as I'm told the Portuguese do.


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## anapedrosa

Clive&Chris said:


> I like the sound of that assessment, I can't quite get my head round buying a property without a survey as I'm told the Portuguese do.


That's the way we felt. If you would like te contact info for the engineer who did our assessment, let me know. He has an office in Caldas da Rainha and speaks excellent English. We ended up hiring him to manage our design and build project and I would do it again.


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## Clive&Chris

anapedrosa said:


> That's the way we felt. If you would like te contact info for the engineer who did our assessment, let me know. He has an office in Caldas da Rainha and speaks excellent English. We ended up hiring him to manage our design and build project and I would do it again.


Thanks, I'll PM you. 

I don't want to come over as too critical of the Portuguese housing system as every country has it's good and bad points and you have to adapt accordingly.


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## Sloger

*Mobile Home Build on Rural Land*

I am hoping I might get some direction here.
I have purchased land in central Portugal, which can be used for a mobile home, as long as I don't have a foundation and utilities. This is fine because I bought the land wanting to live off the grid.

I have found a single wide mobile home trailer with wheels that I want to purchase, set on my land permanently, and build a wood frame home on the trailer, at the location of my land. I will eventually live there full-time.

My questions:
1) Are there certifications, licenses/ permits required for building my own home on a mobile, single wide trailer?

2) I am going to have the trailer brought to the site on the bed of a semi because I don't want to deal with getting it fitted for new tires, dealing with any possible electrical tail light issues, tags, and permits. (I realize there are permits for the truck that will move it to my land). However, since I never intend to move the trailer after it is on the land, and it will be a stationary off-the-grid home, do I need to get the trailer licensed to live in it?

3) Do I need some kind of certificate of inspection for things like electricity, fire safety and plumbing if I build onsite myself, or can I just move in as if it were a yurt, or an RV?

3) Are there size limits for land with these designations? (I know that yurts and RV's are often discussed here, but I have not come across anything about a mobile home self-build.

Thank you kindly for your time.


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## canoeman

You made the point yourself that you can only put the mobile home on your land if it is mobile and you do not put down foundations.
So in answer to 1 you can't apply for permission to build anything on anything

To 2 it's more or less same answer, the problem with off grid is you generally can't install electricity or mains water unless it's agricultural so therefore must rely on self generated power & water supply, as you can't build you can't apply for connection or certificates

3 Your size limits are the trailer the proviso is always going to be can it be moved

Bear in mind that whatever you spend on rebuilding is always going to be at risk because should the Camara decide what your doing is illegal then can force you to move or demolish, apart from possible fines.
Whether that happens depends on your Camaras attitude but don't be naive and think they won't know exactly what your doing, it's rare that they don't


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## Sloger

Thank you for the time to reply,

I want to go to the camera and be very upfront about the fact that I am rebuilding/ refurbishing a mobile home on the land, that way there are no surprises after the build.

I am just wandering if you can tell me more clearly. Do they have in Portugal, or at the local level some kind of occupancy certificate or inspection for things like electricity, fire safety and plumbing if I build the trailer myself? Do i need inspections by licensed professionals, or can I just move in as if it were a yurt, or an RV?

Thank you kindly for your time.


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## canoeman

Yes they do, and every legal build depending on when built would have to have a variety of "Certificates", mobile homes as such would come under Camping, mobile home parks which have a different set of criteria, a lot to do with the "public" utilities rather than units.

Think your missing point, if you want a mobile home to be legal them you would need to apply for permission for camping/mobile homes which is time consuming, expensive apart from it's not really what you want as it's rarely for "single" units.

Rebuilding/refurbishing a mobile home doesn't come under Camara remit, if any department IMTT and it's road legality

As you want to live off grid and "bend" the law so you can install a mobile home then the last thing you really want to do is ask Camara about Certification or anything as your
A) drawing attention to your plans
B) asking them to condone what your doing, which is more likely to get a No than a Yes
which scuppers any plans you have from outset.

Presumably you have bought Rustica land which has laws that govern it's usage what can or cannot be built or connected etc


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## travelling-man

C/M has it right as usual and there's very little the Camaras don't get wise to sooner or later. 

Let me add that you'll also have trouble with sewage because it's very unlikely they'll let you install a septic tank or a fosse on a structure you probably won't be able to get permission to build for a permanent residency. - There are other options for this but they're expensive and probably not much more likely to get the relevant permissions either. 

Hope you don't mind me asking but did you use a lawyer for the purchase and if so, did he mention the problems you might have in this regard?


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## VinhoVerde

canoeman said:


> Presumably you have bought Rustica land which has laws that govern it's usage what can or cannot be built or connected etc


Where/how can I find out what these laws are? Is there a summary somewhere? Not in PT presently, thus cannot visit any offices. 

I have a 1 hectare little rustica with a small barn that I want to convert to basic living quarters. Thinking about a furo artesiano, septic system (<10 persons), solar hot water, and living quarters (using only what's there) of such a simple and modest nature that they may make a monk proud.

Pointers appreciated as always!
Thanks,
VV


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## travelling-man

VinhoVerde said:


> Where/how can I find out what these laws are? Is there a summary somewhere? Not in PT presently, thus cannot visit any offices.
> 
> I have a 1 hectare little rustica with a small barn that I want to convert to basic living quarters. Thinking about a furo artesiano, septic system (<10 persons), solar hot water, and living quarters (using only what's there) of such a simple and modest nature that they may make a monk proud.
> 
> Pointers appreciated as always!
> Thanks,
> VV


As I understand it, you cannot create human habitation or install a fosse etc on land that falls under the rustica classification and the only legal option you have is to get the land classification changed but that ain't easy, fast or probably cheap. 

Regarding the fosse situation, there are other options such as a bio mass treatment unit where the sewage comes in one end and water you can use on the garden comes out the other and funnily enough, I'm looking at those units at the moment for a possible project so send me an email if you need info.


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## canoeman

Rustica is farmland, generally cannot get change of usage for building
Small barn is Armazen, Celeiro and are for storage and very unlikely to be granted change of usage or permission to extend as they have size stipulations 
You would *not get permission* for Septic system if you applied *unless* you could get change of usage and a full project to convert from farm storage to habitation.
If you where lucky enough to achieve this then alterations, building etc would have to be to current building regulations.
Your Escritura, Registration at Conservatoria & Financas will clearly state the land designation

If you look at the PDM for the Camara where your land is situated then it will give you a very rough not definitive idea of any likelihood to get change of usage but change of usage means then following the law for permissions

The 5 major definitions of land are
Each Camara publishes online a Plano Director Municipal PDM which clearly outlines the Commercial, Urban, Rustica, Reserve etc areas within Camara borders
*Commercial:* land that is or designated for industrial use, generally, very unlikely to get permission for any private dwelling.
*Reserve/Ecological:* Very unlikely to get permission to build or major alterations to existing property
*Agro Florastal:* Changes to Fire Prevention Laws in 2007 make it more difficult to get permission to build or alter property in this area, which can also form part of an overall property area.
*Rustic (Rustica):* Land designated as “farming “ of any description, unlikely to get permission for a house build
*Urban (Urbana):* Land designated for building

The problem to anyone wanting to be "off grid" is that as soon as you make any official approach to do things on the land that aren't allowed you put yourself under the spotlight. Yes a lot depends on a particular Camaras attitude as to whether they do turn a blind eye or not but you always have the risk that at anytime you can be stopped, fined and or forced to remove changes


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## canoeman

TM thats how a good "fosse" works, also other alternatives but "fosse" of any description for 10+ must be registered with the Regional Water Authorities unless connected to mains drainage.


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## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> TM thats how a good "fosse" works, also other alternatives but "fosse" of any description for 10+ must be registered with the Regional Water Authorities unless connected to mains drainage.


I appreciate it's the same principle and apologise for not making that clear but these units are smaller and easier to install and assuming a fall on the land can even be installed on the surface and removed if necessary.


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## canoeman

And considerably dearer than being built in situ by traditional methods, in building regs specific dimensions for "fosse" for number people/bathrooms, litres etc make sure they comply


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## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> And considerably dearer than being built in situ by traditional methods, in building regs specific dimensions for "fosse" for number people/bathrooms, litres etc make sure they comply


Not necessarily more expensive...... that would of course depend on a variety of things such as type of ground and accessibility etc.

I haven't looked into it fully yet but from what I have learned, it'd appear they can be placed in locations where a traditional fosse might not and costs in most cases similar and possibly less. 

Assuming the correct EU approvals (which most have) then I reckon they could be a goer in many locations, including for the offgridders etc........ let's face it, they gotta be a better bet than an earth closet! LOL!!!!!


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## VinhoVerde

Thanks guys for your input! May have to accept at some point that I made a bad choice, but currently am still wallowing in an owner-of-olive-groves glow! 

The Certifica describes it as a predio rustico with a dependencia agricola. The footprint is 61m^2 (larger than my aircage here in CA). Not intending to build or extend, rather to "fix up". Presumably I can live there at least some part of the year while I tend the olive trees and vines?


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## canoeman

Not legally, you could camp on land or have a yurt but when it comes to water, power, sewage you have issues 
Predio rustico = Rustic building
Dependencia agricola = Argricutural Dependence

This is the definition for tax purposes
What is a Rustic Building

Meet the definition of rustic building according to Finance so that at the time of paying the IMI is doing everything right. What is a Rustic Building?

The farm buildings are land outside an urban cluster that are not classified as building land, from which the destination agricultural use, as they are considered for tax personal income (IRS), or are not only built or disposal of buildings or constructions without economic autonomy and a reduced value.


Are also considered rustic land within cities, since that is not used for commercial purposes, or that generate agricultural income buildings.

The buildings and structures are still directly allocated to production of agricultural income, when situated in said land and waters crops and farm buildings.


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## canoeman

Continuation to last post

Olives & Vines require tending/harvesting at different times of year as a Non Resident?? would suggest you try and do a deal/arrangement with a neighbour so they are kept in reasonable condition, equally keeping land cleared, don't know your knowledge or experience of Portugal but land very very quickly reverts to scrub land unless maintained


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## travelling-man

Adding to C/Ms point about finding a neighbour to maintain the condition of the vines/trees/land:

That often isn't easy either. We've done a deal with a neighbour where they look after the vines in exchange for keeping the grapes and giving us an occasional bottle of vinho but can't find a single person anywhere in the entire village who's even remotely interested in using our fields for crops, grazing or even hay on a free of charge basis & what's more, there are several Portuguese living in the same village who are in exactly the same position.


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## robc

+ 1 to travelling.
There are many pieces of land around our Village, Portuguese owned and going back to scrub.
I would be very wary of thinking of making any return out of agricultural land.

Just my twopennyworth.

Rob


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## anapedrosa

Another +1, there is a beautiful fruit orchard near us, it was tended at the start of the summer, but now much of the fruit is falling to the ground untended.


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## siobhanwf

Once the first picking is done....help yourself to what is left


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## anapedrosa

Is that the tradition Siobhán? I have been meaning to stop and chat with the farmers, just to be friendly, but I did want to ask whether they sold their produce.
The lady who cleans our home has brought me potatoes, lemons and tomatoes. She won't take payment, so I have offered cakes. I think I will need to pick up some new canning jars, the potential here is fabulous.


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## siobhanwf

It does seem to be the norm Ana. 
The never seem to come a do a second picking.


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## Scott Williams

omostra06 said:


> *Property Purchase Taxes in Portugal*
> 
> When buying a property in Portugal you have to pay purchase taxes for properties over 90,418€. These are calculated on a per cent basis, which are on a sliding scale relating to the value of the property you wish to purchase. These rates are usually amended each year inline with inflation and although new rates and a new system was introduced in April 2010, these proved too complex to calculate. Therefore amended rates with precise deductions have been now calculated (May 2010).
> 
> 
> 
> Resale properties - including ruins, land, old houses - are subject to Imposto Municipal Sobre as Transmissões (IMT) tax. This must be paid up to three days prior to Escritura. The level of tax levied is on a sliding scale and is a percentage of the purchase price.
> 
> 
> 
> If the property is your sole residence then the taxes are levied as follows:
> 
> Primary Residence
> under 90,418€ 0%
> 90,418€ - 123,682€ 2% minus 1,808.36€
> 123,682€ - 168,638€ 5% minus 5,518.82€
> 168,638€ - 281,030€ 7% minus 8,891.58€
> 281,030€ - 561,960€ 8% minus 11,701.88€
> Over 561,960€ 6%
> If the property you are purchasing is a second property such as a holiday home then the taxes are calculated as follows:
> Second (Holiday) Home
> under 90,418€ 1%
> 90,418€ - 123,682€ 2% minus 904.18€
> 123,682€ - 168,638€ 5% minus 4,614.64€
> 168,638€ - 281,030€ 7% minus 7,987.40€
> 281,030€ - 538,978€ 8% minus 10,797.70€
> Over 538,978€ = 6%
> Agricultural (rustico) is charged at the flat rate of 5%, whereas Urban land (urbano) is charged at a rate of 6%.
> 
> If you are unsure how much the IVA or IMT will be, it is advisable to check with the local Finanças before you enter into a Promessa Contract.
> 
> *The above figures were current as of May 2010.
> _Info courtesy of Gekkoportugal_



Hi Derek 

The above was really helpful (& I've got the latest updates) but just like to ask you the situation with regard to IVA/VAT - does it apply also? I had heard there was 23.25% on all new buildings - is that correct?

thanks


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## BodgieMcBodge

Scott Williams said:


> Hi Derek
> 
> The above was really helpful (& I've got the latest updates) but just like to ask you the situation with regard to IVA/VAT - does it apply also? I had heard there was 23.25% on all new buildings - is that correct?
> 
> thanks


Hi Mate,

Whilst Derek was the "font of all knowledge", buying land, building a wonderful house and running a successful estate agents business he, and his partner, had a reality moment and worked out that Portugal is not paradise so several years ago got rid of it all and left. Obviously it would be interesting to know the complete story as, on this site, all the contributors have a positive attitude for living in Portugal whereas those who have moved on have no balancing view on life here.


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## jonpaul314

omostra06 said:


> When buying a property in Portugal you have to pay purchase taxes for properties over 89,700€. These are calculated on a per cent basis, which are on a sliding scale relating to the value of the property you wish to purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> Resales properties - including ruins, land, old houses - are subject to Imposto Municipal Sobre as Transmissões (IMT) tax. This must be paid up to three days prior to Escritura. The level of tax levied is on a sliding scale and is a percentage of the purchase price.
> 
> 
> 
> If the property is your sole residence then the taxes are levied as follows:
> 
> under 89,700€ 0%
> 89,700€ - 122,700€ 2% minus 1,794€
> 122.700€ - 167,300€ 5% minus 5,475€
> 167,300€ - 278,800€ 7% minus 8,821€
> 278,800€ - 557,500 € 8% minus 11,609€
> Over 557,500€ 6%
> If the property you are purchasing is a second property such as a holiday home then the taxes are calculated as follows:
> under 89,700€ 1%
> 89,700€ - 122,700€ 2% minus 897€
> 122.700€ - 167,300€ 5% minus 4,578€
> 167,300€ - 278,800€ 7% minus 7,924€
> 278,800€ - 557,500 € 8% minus 10.712€
> Over 557,500€ 6%
> Agricultural and building land is charged at the flat rate of 5%.
> 
> If you are unsure how much the IVA or IMT will be, it is advisable to check with the local Financas before you enter into a Promessa Contract.
> 
> The above figures were current as of January 2009.


Hi Omostra06,
Thanks for all the info you have posted up, and im hoping you could help me on a matter.
I am debating about maybe putting in an offer on a property that me and the mrs are keen on, but the property has mixed article, rustic and urban, the property is under e70k and will be our 2nd home.
My question is will i pay just 1% tax on purchase price or the flat rate of 5% for mixed land (article) ?

Thanks.


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## ermaolu

just wonder ,does anyone here had applied for tax benefit for rehabilitation of the property that he/she bought?

I was told that such a tax reduction but don't know what documents you need to apply for that.

I bought a house that need total rehabilitaion but 3month has passed I have not got a PIP(approval for the project at 1st stage) from CML.


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## DREAMWEAVER1

As in our house purchase,we left all paperwork to our Lousa solicitor,who it has to be said,is very much "on the ball".


Good luck,



David


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## Strontium

ermaolu said:


> just wonder ,does anyone here had applied for tax benefit for rehabilitation of the property that he/she bought?
> 
> I was told that such a tax reduction but don't know what documents you need to apply for that.
> 
> I bought a house that need total rehabilitaion but 3month has passed I have not got a PIP(approval for the project at 1st stage) from CML.



Who ever told you there was a tax benefit need to explain to you how it works and what it applies to and which taxes are involved which would be your lawyer or accountant and BEFORE you purchase.
I am unsure what "total rehabilitation" of a property means. If it complete rebuild ie supporting walls etc or a renovation mainly on decorative parts ? If you are having to get permission as a "project" this is then probably involved structural members so is in same class as a new build and, again, this would have been explained, the "project "system, costs, time scale, possible delays by your lawyer or architect and builder BEFORE you purchased but none of the project approval is dependant on you getting a tax reduction.


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## scubajohn

Hi all
regarding under declaring law .
for instance i see a property valued at say 200,000 and did due diligence alls well and i made a counter offer minus 10% = would this be classed as under declaring 
cheers jp


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## Strontium

scubajohn said:


> Hi all
> regarding under declaring law .
> for instance i see a property valued at say 200,000 and did due diligence alls well and i made a counter offer minus 10% = would this be classed as under declaring
> cheers jp


Not sure what you are on about with due diligence but if it is about the tax on the purchase of a property then the asking price and any offer you make have nothing to do with it. The tax is based on the purchase price which is agreed between the vendor(s) and purchaser(s) and written on the (legally binding) contracts normally handled by the layers. 

The common under-declaration is on things like the area of a piece of land.


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## scubajohn

Strontium said:


> Not sure what you are on about with due diligence but if it is about the tax on the purchase of a property then the asking price and any offer you make have nothing to do with it. The tax is based on the purchase price which is agreed between the vendor(s) and purchaser(s) and written on the (legally binding) contracts normally handled by the layers.
> 
> The common under-declaration is on things like the area of a piece of land.


ah right, due dilligence ive a two propertys and was burnt once so now i double check then check again, ie due dilligence

i worded it wrong my apoligies, its should of been about Re,evaluation of properties


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## J9PF

Can you recommend a good lawyer?


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## ViaVinho

When retaining a lawyer to help with buying a property, what does one ask of them? Is there a standard procedure or formal process that they follow? 
Before making a promessa, what should the lawyer be asked to do or do they know what to do? Do they have to be specifically asked to check for planned roads, airports, sewerage treatment plants, etc. or is that part of a standardized procedure?
Once the all clear is given, what should they be asked to do thereafter or - again- do they know what to do? Ditto for the escritura and the registration of the property?

Any insights or explanation appreciated, thanks in advance!
VV


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## Arabellacatpig

*How to find a property lawyer*

Hi there,
I am looking for a property and don't want any nasty surprises. How do I go about finding a reliable property lawyer. 
I'm looking around Oliveira do Hospital. Is there a directory?


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## anapedrosa

ViaVinho said:


> When retaining a lawyer to help with buying a property, what does one ask of them? Is there a standard procedure or formal process that they follow?
> Before making a promessa, what should the lawyer be asked to do or do they know what to do? Do they have to be specifically asked to check for planned roads, airports, sewerage treatment plants, etc. or is that part of a standardized procedure?
> Once the all clear is given, what should they be asked to do thereafter or - again- do they know what to do? Ditto for the escritura and the registration of the property?
> 
> Any insights or explanation appreciated, thanks in advance!
> VV


From what I recall the lawyer (or solicitor) does a lot less here than in Canada for a house purchase. Our lawyer was responsible for the contract for writing the promissory, which afterwards became the basis for the contract to purchase - the escritura. He handled our land purchase transaction and answered our questions.

Before the escritura we hired a local engineer who completes property assessments for the bank and also manages property development. We wanted someone independent of the realtor to obtain a land survey, assess the market value of the property and ensure that the land had planning permission to build.


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## Strontium

ViaVinho said:


> When retaining a lawyer to help with buying a property, what does one ask of them? Is there a standard procedure or formal process that they follow?
> Before making a promessa, what should the lawyer be asked to do or do they know what to do? Do they have to be specifically asked to check for planned roads, airports, sewerage treatment plants, etc. or is that part of a standardized procedure?
> Once the all clear is given, what should they be asked to do thereafter or - again- do they know what to do? Ditto for the escritura and the registration of the property?
> 
> Any insights or explanation appreciated, thanks in advance!
> VV


Usually meeting a local lawyer and discussing what you want from the process then doing the same with a couple of other local lawyers will find someone you are comfortable to work with. They will advise and then do whatever you agree to as they work for you so you have to instruct them. The promessa is a powerful document which both the buyer and vendor have input and financial penalty if they do not comply. You can include bits like new roof on garden shed to be fitted before sale if both sides agree to it. A good local lawyer will know of local public works which have yet to be ratified.


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## intljoe

Hello folks,

First-time poster here inquiring about realtor recommendations in Nazare. (I have recently bought a small flat in lisbon so I am familiar with the purchase process.) 

I'm looking in Sitio for a small flat/home for use as a weekend/holiday home.Advice on the local market from expats settled there would be appreciated too! 

Thanks in advance, folks.


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## Motocadia10

Hi Derek,

Been reading your info on buying houses, its all great thanks, would you know where I can get a current link for the % of taxes that are due on properties, 

Many thanks,
Julian


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## Motocadia10

Hi Derek,

Been reading all your posts on buying tips etc, all great thanks, are the rules different for restoration v new build? I assume they are, I am looking at a house from 1937 with attached barn and adega 

Looking at restoring a ruin near Caldas, used to live there 14 years ago! do you have any info on connecting a house to the main drains? currently so say the properties drains go in to a nearby house! not far, which I assume is on the main drain network, trying to find out if this is going to be a nightmare to have it connected but it does have mains water and electric

Many thanks,

Julian


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## Strontium

If you read his posts above you'll know Derek has not been here for years, he sold up and left.


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