# Comparing heating systems & costs!



## Muddy

I've had a bit of a search around the site but not found info.
I'm short-listing a few properties to go look at but would like to know what peoples thoughts are on heating options.

I'm planning on getting a place more inland possibly around 1000m altitude so it's going to be a bit colder at times and a lot colder I'm sure on some winter nights!

Places I've seen do have log burners but what options do you think are most cost effective to run!
Has anyone got oil fired central heating and if so are there any good and bad makes and things I should look out for or avoid?

Any idea on running costs over winter for a place a bit up the mountain etc?
How much is the cost of heating oil per litre ?
Does oil fired boiler work out cheaper to heat water and run the shower or not etc compared to gas?

I can see one good side at least is not having to lug gas bottles around 

I've used an electric blanket up in the mountains before and the log burner for the main sitting room was more than good enough. Just as long as you didn't want or need to keep every room warm that is!
Thanx in advance for any info..


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## baldilocks

Muddy said:


> I've had a bit of a search around the site but not found info.
> I'm short-listing a few properties to go look at but would like to know what peoples thoughts are on heating options.
> 
> I'm planning on getting a place more inland possibly around 1000m altitude so it's going to be a bit colder at times and a lot colder I'm sure on some winter nights!
> 
> Places I've seen do have log burners but what options do you think are most cost effective to run!
> Has anyone got oil fired central heating and if so are there any good and bad makes and things I should look out for or avoid?
> 
> Any idea on running costs over winter for a place a bit up the mountain etc?
> How much is the cost of heating oil per litre ?
> Does oil fired boiler work out cheaper to heat water and run the shower or not etc compared to gas?
> 
> I can see one good side at least is not having to lug gas bottles around
> 
> I've used an electric blanket up in the mountains before and the log burner for the main sitting room was more than good enough. Just as long as you didn't want or need to keep every room warm that is!
> Thanx in advance for any info..


We are inland at just over 700m. We made a few alterations to the property and had a log-burner built in, that has a fanned output that adds heat to the room in which the burner is situated plus fanned outputs to the two bedrooms on the floor above. 

The cavity with the stainless steel flu passing up through it has a small grille at ground floor leval admitting air with another grille in the attic allowing warm air from the cavity to warm the attic. It doesn't exactly warm it sufficiently to sit up there comfortably but it does take the chill off (it is 42 sq metres with a max height of about 4m along the ridge).

Running costs about 80€-120€ per winter. logs are cheap and mostly prunings from the olivares so our log burner which runs at a rather higher temperature, burns the prunings more efficiently and helps the environment by reducing the amount of smoke particulates. In the pruning season which, all told, can be several months it is sometimes difficult to see across the valley for all the smoke from the bonfires on the hillsides. The stuff has to be burnt to kill off pests.

In addition we have A/C inverters in a few rooms that are used to heat a couple of rooms that aren't fed by the log burner or for when it is not lit. The lower ground floor where SWMBO and I have our bedroom and the other office, our bathroom, small lounge is only heated sometimes by a bottled gas burner or sometimes with an old fan heater for direct heating.

The first winter we were here, we had only just moved in (builders were here, in and out all day so everything wide open) and had none of the foregoing in place so no heating and I got frost-bite in my toes (I have poor peripheral circulation) and the last time that happened was in the winter of 1962/3 when the temperature fell below freezing on 26th December and didn't get above 0°C again until 13th March. Now we are much more comfortable. In summer it can get a bit on the warm side with temperatures up to 35-40° with the odd day getting almost to 45°.

Apart from the logs, I guess we spend about 176€ per year on gas bottles which in addition to two gas heaters which are used for variable amounts of time, are also used for cooking and for hot water. Electricity is 979,79 (say 1000) € for the year.

Our house has 5 levels (4/5 BR, 2Ba, through lounge-diner [24 sq. m.]) including the attic and basement (patio, log store and workshop area) of which 204 sq.m. (i.e. excluding the basement level) are enclosed and in use although the attic has only occasional use as part of the living space in addition to storage. It is about 120 years old and was pulled down in the early 60s and rebuilt with block and beam construction although the walls are non-insulated (no cavities either) and were, until our refurb, just plain rendered (lets the rain through!). Now have capa fina.

Heating alternative options:
Pellet burner which requires storage/delivery of the pellets (I think they are made of waste wood)
Olive pip burner (these used to be subsidised, not sure now) but again you need storage/delivery of the pellets.
Solar - not sure to what extent you could heat the houe but I understand that water heating is quite viable most of the time in winter. (In summer you have to watch out for boiling water)

Hope this gives you some idea but you may need to consider this in relation to our location in the mountains of the Sierra Sur de Jaén.


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## Muddy

Thanx baldilocks for the very detailed reply.

The fan assisted log burner I'll keep an eye out for these when looking, sounds good. I assume the fan is optional to have on and isn't required to keep the fire going!
The logs sound very cheap so that's good news. I did read recently olive tree wood doesn't burn very well but as you say with the fan assisted log burner less smoke must mean a cleaner burn.

The electric sounds a lot, but your place sounds on the big side. I think I'll be getting something around 150m or a bit less so my bills should be a bit smaller so that should offset the electric bills hopefully.
I'll still be needing gas bottles, as I'll most likely have a gas cooker. Forgot about that but not much of an extra cost overall I think.

I assume the places I'm looking at don't have cavity walls but planning on a single level property so this should help with keeping heating costs down a little.

Some interesting options you mention there to think about. I plan on having some sort of solar water heating. The pool shower thing I used a while back worked really well, just have to see what's available to use something like that in the house with other systems combined.

Cheers.


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## dunmovin

Muddy said:


> Thanx baldilocks for the very detailed reply.
> 
> The fan assisted log burner I'll keep an eye out for these when looking, sounds good. I assume the fan is optional to have on and isn't required to keep the fire going!
> The logs sound very cheap so that's good news. I did read recently olive tree wood doesn't burn very well but as you say with the fan assisted log burner less smoke must mean a cleaner burn.
> 
> The electric sounds a lot, but your place sounds on the big side. I think I'll be getting something around 150m or a bit less so my bills should be a bit smaller so that should offset the electric bills hopefully.
> I'll still be needing gas bottles, as I'll most likely have a gas cooker. Forgot about that but not much of an extra cost overall I think.
> 
> I assume the places I'm looking at don't have cavity walls but planning on a single level property so this should help with keeping heating costs down a little.
> 
> Some interesting options you mention there to think about. I plan on having some sort of solar water heating. The pool shower thing I used a while back worked really well, just have to see what's available to use something like that in the house with other systems combined.
> 
> Cheers.


I think the "fan assisted" burner baldilocks mentioned might be where the warm air from the space between the metal flue and he outer wall of the chimney is blown sucked into duct and distrbuted around the house(when we moved in there was such a system, but it was powered by an ancient Ronson Escort hairdryer[circa 1970} and about as functional as an ashtray on a motorbike...so that lot came out or was used to route pvc tubes and cables during the rewiring)

Olive wood is quite slow burning, but mixed with other woods is good.(almond or walnut or pine.....pine on it's own burns too fast)

From your previous posts, you're looking for a place in the campo, therefore, don't waste your time looking for a place with cavity walls. The build style tends to be 2ft thick outside walls and 1.5 inch thick interior walls. Putting in a central heating system would be unwise.Pipes would have to be on the wall surface and if you tried putting underfloor,you may find getting matching floor tiles a problem and end up re tiilng every room.

If you go for a freestanding log burner, with an internal enamelled flue, I suggest you get a one with a glass door at the front,and an opening lid ontop, meant for cooking.

The glass door lets you see the fire(feel better factor) and alllows you to know when it is running down.The exposed flue acts like a huge radiator and throws a lot of heat into the room. The ones with the the opening lid,(roasting tray) can be filled with firebricks and that acts like a storage heater when the fire goes out


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## Cazzy

This year we installed a large pellet burner, this along with the solar hot water are two of the best things we have bought in Spain. The pellet burner costs about 3 euro for 10 hours heat set at 22 degrees. It heats the whole house providing we leave doors open.


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## baldilocks

No the fan isn't required to keep the fire going, it is almost as Dunmovin says except that the heat from around the flue is carried upwards by convection. The fire has a double skin and the fan passes air through the cavity between the two skins, it will come on automatically when the fire gets really hot, otherwise there is a two-speed switch .

Electricity in Spain is quite expensive and our costs aren't helped by my suegra being too much of a snob to have mere "common" sense and will drop the persianas as soon as it gets a bit on the bright side (even before the sun has come round/over the mountains to keep the heat out and then put the ceiling lights (300w) on because she can't see, similarly, in the winter she will put the A/C heaters on set at 29/30° but in the summer will want the A/C set at 21°, otherwise our costs are not too bad.


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## Alcalaina

Muddy said:


> The electric sounds a lot, but your place sounds on the big side. I think I'll be getting something around 150m or a bit less so my bills should be a bit smaller so that should offset the electric bills hopefully.


Our combined propane and electricity costs now average €250 a month from November through March, for two of us in a 3-bedroom detached house. That's just to keep the rooms we live in at around 18-20C - much cooler than we would have had it in the UK. We have got used to wearing thermal clothing indoors!

If you can use anything other than fossil fuels, go for it - prices have rocketed and will continue to do so.


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## 90199

Alcalaina said:


> Our combined propane and electricity costs now average €250 a month from November through March, for two of us in a 3-bedroom detached house. That's just to keep the rooms we live in at around 18-20C - much cooler than we would have had it in the UK. We have got used to wearing thermal clothing indoors!
> 
> If you can use anything other than fossil fuels, go for it - prices have rocketed and will continue to do so.


You live on a different planet to us. Diesel dropped in price today, our indoor fuel bills are €60 per month all year round, we have electric radiators that we brought from the U.K., but they have not been needed for two years. No thermals, no electric blankets, I have a pullover though.

When we lived in the U.K. we had a central heating system, but only used it for heating the water for washing up.


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## Stravinsky

baldilocks said:


> We are inland at just over 700m. We made a few alterations to the property and had a log-burner built in, that has a fanned output that adds heat to the room in which the burner is situated plus fanned outputs to the two bedrooms on the floor above.
> 
> The cavity with the stainless steel flu passing up through it has a small grille at ground floor


What he said 

We have a log casette (as opposed to a stand alone log burner. We are about 300 mtrs and its anything between 2 and 5 degrees cooler here than at ground level.

It costs us about €100 - €120 a winter in logs. We have a small metal cage at a time, which is €40 - €45 depending on the type of log. The cassette has a fan system which is very effective. We use a mixture of oak, olive and carob to get the right combination

We also have a powerful aircon system which we can use in emergency, and several mobile oil radiators if its not cold enough for the log fire


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## Stravinsky

Stravinsky said:


> What he said
> 
> We have a log casette (as opposed to a stand alone log burner. We are about 300 mtrs and its anything between 2 and 5 degrees cooler here than at ground level.
> 
> It costs us about €100 - €120 a winter in logs. We have a small metal cage at a time, which is €40 - €45 depending on the type of log. The cassette has a fan system which is very effective. We use a mixture of oak, olive and carob to get the right combination
> 
> We also have a powerful aircon system which we can use in emergency, and several mobile oil radiators if its not cold enough for the log fire


I should add that our electric bills are roughly an average of €60 a month in the summer, rising to around €100 in Jan Feb March.


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## Muddy

dunmovin said:


> I think the "fan assisted" burner baldilocks mentioned might be where the warm air from the space between the metal flue and he outer wall of the chimney is blown sucked into duct and distrbuted around the house(when we moved in there was such a system, but it was powered by an ancient Ronson Escort hairdryer[circa 1970} and about as functional as an ashtray on a motorbike...so that lot came out or was used to route pvc tubes and cables during the rewiring)
> 
> Olive wood is quite slow burning, but mixed with other woods is good.(almond or walnut or pine.....pine on it's own burns too fast)
> 
> From your previous posts, you're looking for a place in the campo, therefore, don't waste your time looking for a place with cavity walls. The build style tends to be 2ft thick outside walls and 1.5 inch thick interior walls. Putting in a central heating system would be unwise.Pipes would have to be on the wall surface and if you tried putting underfloor,you may find getting matching floor tiles a problem and end up re tiilng every room.
> 
> If you go for a freestanding log burner, with an internal enamelled flue, I suggest you get a one with a glass door at the front,and an opening lid ontop, meant for cooking.
> 
> The glass door lets you see the fire(feel better factor) and alllows you to know when it is running down.The exposed flue acts like a huge radiator and throws a lot of heat into the room. The ones with the the opening lid,(roasting tray) can be filled with firebricks and that acts like a storage heater when the fire goes out


Thanx dunmovin
I'm sure most installations are ok, but a gas engineer in the UK told me he has seen some installations here that didn't have a proper flue installed all the way up the chimney! Something for me to check when looking.
Is this type of system a bit more risky when it comes to carbon monoxide. I'm sure very safe as long as metal flu goes all the way up of course!

Thanx for tips on wood types, always good to know.
When ordering a truckload of wood tho, how do you make sure you know what you're getting. Do you guys get what you ask for most of the time?

Yep you're right, the I have campo in my blood lol Never feel happy in the city, but always feel more at home when up in the mountains etc.
Yes most of the places have very think walls I've looked at. I am currently looking at a mix of old and some much newer builds, one of which has much thinner walls and someone has installed a oil fired heating system, but with pipes showing! Unlikely was planned in the original build I think.
Annoying but on a practical level if anything goes wrong very easy to maintain which is fine by me.
You read my mind about the floor tiles! 1st job to do is look for spare tiles, just in case any get damaged 

I love the glass fronted log burners, as you said has the (feel good factor) and again they're practical as you can see how the fire is doing.


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## Muddy

Cazzy said:


> This year we installed a large pellet burner, this along with the solar hot water are two of the best things we have bought in Spain. The pellet burner costs about 3 euro for 10 hours heat set at 22 degrees. It heats the whole house providing we leave doors open.


Hi Cazzy
Thanx for the info. Could you pm me the site if that's against forum rules to post it up! Interested in incorporating solar hot water with a standard system so any info on that would be great.
I haven't seen a pallet burner so I will have a look at these.
Cheers..


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## Muddy

baldilocks said:


> No the fan isn't required to keep the fire going, it is almost as Dunmovin says except that the heat from around the flue is carried upwards by convection. The fire has a double skin and the fan passes air through the cavity between the two skins, it will come on automatically when the fire gets really hot, otherwise there is a two-speed switch .
> 
> Electricity in Spain is quite expensive and our costs aren't helped by my suegra being too much of a snob to have mere "common" sense and will drop the persianas as soon as it gets a bit on the bright side (even before the sun has come round/over the mountains to keep the heat out and then put the ceiling lights (300w) on because she can't see, similarly, in the winter she will put the A/C heaters on set at 29/30° but in the summer will want the A/C set at 21°, otherwise our costs are not too bad.


Understood regards the way that heating you have works now, thanx.
Sounds like you mum has got a good system sorted out there lol 
I've replaced a lot of my bulbs in the UK with LED's. Did save some money but paying about the same now as of course prices keep going up here also.
So look into replacing some of your 300w bulbs. My 3w LED's are about the same at an old 60w, that's what friends thought they were and were surprised when I told then they were just 3w, or just 3x 1w LED's in each bulb! That's what I use for wall lights, you need stronger for a main room bulb IMO.


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## Muddy

Alcalaina said:


> Our combined propane and electricity costs now average €250 a month from November through March, for two of us in a 3-bedroom detached house. That's just to keep the rooms we live in at around 18-20C - much cooler than we would have had it in the UK. We have got used to wearing thermal clothing indoors!
> 
> If you can use anything other than fossil fuels, go for it - prices have rocketed and will continue to do so.


Thanx for th info Alcalaina
How high up are you there (in the mountains) if you don't mind me asking? That sounds a lot of dosh to be laying out every month!
I would love not to sue fossil fuels and I'll keep looking for something I can use to get close to achieving that. I do aim to have all my water heated by solar at least.


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## Guest

Re wood deliveries - they`re pretty reliable. In my area, Sierra Nevada, it`s pretty much all olive root, with some olive trunk logs mixed in. It burns very slowly and puts out a lot of heat and is my preferred choice. You can pickup the pellet and olive pip burners at small DIY stores, they`re quite cheap and sourcing the fuel shouldn´t be too difficult. There are one or two olive trees in Spain, from what I`m led to believe...

The wood burners with the fans, as Baldilocks described, are extremely efficient and I`d have no hesitation in recommending them. The downside of the glass doors comes in cleaning them, which can be a chew as Olive wood is quite resinous, but not a showstopper. The upside is being mesmerised by the fire and seeing shapes in the soot on the door! (we don`t go in for that new-fangled televisualaudio-electrickery that Mr Logie-Baird recently unveiled...)

Here, you pay just under 100€ per ton of wood, but costs over winter will depend on your property and your level of wussness! A modern property will be far better insulated/built and require less fuel than something more, er, quaint/rustic. For quaint/rustic, read thrown together fifty years ago. We live in the latter


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## baldilocks

Muddy said:


> Understood regards the way that heating you have works now, thanx.
> Sounds like you mum has got a good system sorted out there lol
> I've replaced a lot of my bulbs in the UK with LED's. Did save some money but paying about the same now as of course prices keep going up here also.
> So look into replacing some of your 300w bulbs. My 3w LED's are about the same at an old 60w, that's what friends thought they were and were surprised when I told then they were just 3w, or just 3x 1w LED's in each bulb! That's what I use for wall lights, you need stronger for a main room bulb IMO.


The 300w arises from 6x50w quartz bulbs - tried replacing with led equivalents and only got about half the light. Primary intention was to spotlight paintings.


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## Muddy

Stravinsky said:


> What he said
> 
> We have a log casette (as opposed to a stand alone log burner. We are about 300 mtrs and its anything between 2 and 5 degrees cooler here than at ground level.
> 
> It costs us about €100 - €120 a winter in logs. We have a small metal cage at a time, which is €40 - €45 depending on the type of log. The cassette has a fan system which is very effective. We use a mixture of oak, olive and carob to get the right combination
> 
> We also have a powerful aircon system which we can use in emergency, and several mobile oil radiators if its not cold enough for the log fire


Thanx Stravinsky
Didn't know about the log cassette system so I'll look into that.
Is that 2 to 5c cooler summer and winter?
I'm looking at some places I really like but at 1000m I worried I'm going to freeze my arse off! But I've been at 800m several times including winter and that was ok. Very cold at night but soon warmed up and was hot by 11am etc And as I like to stay up late and get up late that's fine by me 

Well the logs sound value for money, electric sounds way up there. I think I pay about £128 a quarter in the UK! I am careful tho. Mind you I use an electric oven!
That is averaged across 12 months payments.
Cheers.


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## Alcalaina

Muddy said:


> Thanx for th info Alcalaina
> How high up are you there (in the mountains) if you don't mind me asking? That sounds a lot of dosh to be laying out every month!
> I would love not to sue fossil fuels and I'll keep looking for something I can use to get close to achieving that. I do aim to have all my water heated by solar at least.


Not especially high, about 300m I think. We never get below-zero temperatures. I think because we are in a detached house with a flat roof we just lose heat on all sides and even though the walls are thick, there is no insulation.


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## baldilocks

I should have said that our log burner is a cassette which just means that it is an enclosed fire intended for building in (although doesn't have to be) as opposed to an open hearth or a free-standing.

Have rechecked our electric bills and it includes one bi-monthly bill that was double what it should have been because they failed to read on one occasion and their estimates were ridiculously low (3€ or so!) so there was a four month catch up involved therefore our more accurate annual amout would probably be around 800€.

We had one guy come to give us an estimate for solar-water heating but his system had a storage tank next to the panel on the roof but he deemed that the piece of roof we wanted it on wasn't strong enough. However when we had the reform works done we had the pipework laid in for solar water heating.


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## Muddy

Yossa said:


> Re wood deliveries - they`re pretty reliable. In my area, Sierra Nevada, it`s pretty much all olive root, with some olive trunk logs mixed in. It burns very slowly and puts out a lot of heat and is my preferred choice. You can pickup the pellet and olive pip burners at small DIY stores, they`re quite cheap and sourcing the fuel shouldn´t be too difficult. There are one or two olive trees in Spain, from what I`m led to believe...
> 
> The wood burners with the fans, as Baldilocks described, are extremely efficient and I`d have no hesitation in recommending them. The downside of the glass doors comes in cleaning them, which can be a chew as Olive wood is quite resinous, but not a showstopper. The upside is being mesmerised by the fire and seeing shapes in the soot on the door! (we don`t go in for that new-fangled televisualaudio-electrickery that Mr Logie-Baird recently unveiled...)
> 
> Here, you pay just under 100€ per ton of wood, but costs over winter will depend on your property and your level of wussness! A modern property will be far better insulated/built and require less fuel than something more, er, quaint/rustic. For quaint/rustic, read thrown together fifty years ago. We live in the latter


Thanx Yossa
Good to know I can rely on deliveries. So if I asked for a mix of different woods I would hopefully get what I ordered! But like you said mostly olive root down your way so I guess it just depends on what more plentiful in each area.

Yeah I've cleaned the glass door on a burner before, hard work. I could maybe leave the door open, which I did at times but think the fire just didn't burn as well that way.
Your log burner isn't in the shape of a TV is it Yosser 
I know exactly what you mean tho, I love an open fire and seeing all the different colours and shapes, nothing like it. And on the flip side, how about a log fire screen saver lol 

Well 100 euro for a ton is bloody good I think considering how long that could last! I may keep looking at some more of the new builds! Not new as such, just something that doesn't leak heat like a bucket full of holes. Oil and gas is only going to go up I should think.
I do like rustic, but I do like to feel warm also


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## Muddy

Alcalaina said:


> Not especially high, about 300m I think. We never get below-zero temperatures. I think because we are in a detached house with a flat roof we just lose heat on all sides and even though the walls are thick, there is no insulation.


Hi Alcalaina
I think where I was staying before looked rustic and old but in reality it wasn't old at all and I'm pretty sure it didn't have solid walls as the place wasn't that cold in winter. The only heating was from the big log burner and 1 gas heater plus electric blankets just to get the beds warm.


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## Muddy

baldilocks said:


> I should have said that our log burner is a cassette which just means that it is an enclosed fire intended for building in (although doesn't have to be) as opposed to an open hearth or a free-standing.
> 
> Have rechecked our electric bills and it includes one bi-monthly bill that was double what it should have been because they failed to read on one occasion and their estimates were ridiculously low (3€ or so!) so there was a four month catch up involved therefore our more accurate annual amout would probably be around 800€.
> 
> We had one guy come to give us an estimate for solar-water heating but his system had a storage tank next to the panel on the roof but he deemed that the piece of roof we wanted it on wasn't strong enough. However when we had the reform works done we had the pipework laid in for solar water heating.


Thanx the follow up on the costs. Hopefully I can offset the electric with the solar and log burners.
Funny I didn't know that cassette meant that lol
The place top of my list right now has a very big enclosed fire with glass front so I'm happy about that. Not only works great but looks great also even when it's not in use.
Cheers.


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## Stravinsky

Muddy said:


> Thanx Stravinsky
> Didn't know about the log cassette system so I'll look into that.
> Is that 2 to 5c cooler summer and winter?
> I'm looking at some places I really like but at 1000m I worried I'm going to freeze my arse off! But I've been at 800m several times including winter and that was ok. Very cold at night but soon warmed up and was hot by 11am etc And as I like to stay up late and get up late that's fine by me
> 
> Well the logs sound value for money, electric sounds way up there. I think I pay about £128 a quarter in the UK! I am careful tho. Mind you I use an electric oven!
> That is averaged across 12 months payments.
> Cheers.


Yes the difference is summer and winter. A blessing in the summer, a curse in the winter
Bear in mind we have a lot of electrical stuff, however costs are certainly more than in the UK. The water heater is a real drain, so we have than on a time closk throughout the day. We also have a pool, and the pump is running for a couple of hours a day
We were still sitting out on the terrace for lunch last December. It cools down at night though, and the coldest months tend to be February / March


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## Muddy

Stravinsky said:


> Yes the difference is summer and winter. A blessing in the summer, a curse in the winter
> Bear in mind we have a lot of electrical stuff, however costs are certainly more than in the UK. The water heater is a real drain, so we have than on a time closk throughout the day. We also have a pool, and the pump is running for a couple of hours a day
> We were still sitting out on the terrace for lunch last December. It cools down at night though, and the coldest months tend to be February / March


Thanx Stravinsky
I guess I'll just have to put up with the winter, hopefully most of them will pass by quick-ish..
Lunch on the terrace in Dec sounds pretty good tho!
I bet that pool pump is taking a good chunk of your electric bill!
I'll be looking at installing solar water heating of some sort, so I hope to save some cash on the bills that way.
Cheers.


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## Guest

The solar water tanks are excellent, but not cheap. However, your ROI will be worth it, given cost of running an electric water tank. However, if you`re handy with tools, then you should google "DIY solar heating" and read a little on thermosyphoning. It`s quite straightforward to build a homemade solar water heater - there are a few threads on here, with proud "dads" showing their "offspring".

My OH thinks I`m odd, and she`d be right, as she watches music vids on YouTube and I watch (sometimes!) vids on construction of Heath-Robinsonesque malarkey. Each to their own, eh?


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## Muddy

Yossa said:


> The solar water tanks are excellent, but not cheap. However, your ROI will be worth it, given cost of running an electric water tank. However, if you`re handy with tools, then you should google "DIY solar heating" and read a little on thermosyphoning. It`s quite straightforward to build a homemade solar water heater - there are a few threads on here, with proud "dads" showing their "offspring".
> 
> My OH thinks I`m odd, and she`d be right, as she watches music vids on YouTube and I watch (sometimes!) vids on construction of Heath-Robinsonesque malarkey. Each to their own, eh?


I'm with you on the "Heath-Robinsonesque malarkey" LOL or tech vids on youtube!
I'll take a look later and see what's involved. I tend to prefer to try fix something myself if I can, be that making loft hatch swing up when I was told it should swing down lol... to fitting a new fuel pump on the car.

I was sold on the solar water heating idea when I used a poolside solar shower for the first time years ago. Had to turn on the cold water as it was burning hot.
Will be high on my ToDo list to get this working once in Spain.


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## Stravinsky

Muddy said:


> Thanx Stravinsky
> I guess I'll just have to put up with the winter, hopefully most of them will pass by quick-ish..
> Lunch on the terrace in Dec sounds pretty good tho!
> I bet that pool pump is taking a good chunk of your electric bill!
> I'll be looking at installing solar water heating of some sort, so I hope to save some cash on the bills that way.
> Cheers.


Theres a lot of misinformation about pool pumps
Many expats will tell you to run it for 4, 5, or even 6 hours a day. So thats what I did when we moved here

After dropping it to one or two hours a day our electricity bills dropped, in conjunction with taking the water heater off being on all the time (which people told us would not be excessive) and putting it on for maybe 3 hours a day on a time clock.


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## Muddy

Stravinsky said:


> Theres a lot of misinformation about pool pumps
> Many expats will tell you to run it for 4, 5, or even 6 hours a day. So thats what I did when we moved here
> 
> After dropping it to one or two hours a day our electricity bills dropped, in conjunction with taking the water heater off being on all the time (which people told us would not be excessive) and putting it on for maybe 3 hours a day on a time clock.


Just guessing but I would have thought a pool that was half the size might need half the amount of filtering! No idea tho. Would be good to know exactly if there was a formula so as to not wast electric!

Going back to one of my questions which I haven't found out as yet.
How much is heating oil per litre?

And what price is olive oil these days and can that be used legally in oil fired heating systems as a bio fuel?
This might be a stupid thing to say perhaps, but if the price is falling for olive oil which seems to be the case going on the news I saw this morning, would not using olive oil as a bio fuel help bring up the price and put a few extra quid back into peoples pockets?
And also wouldn't it be better than letting them go to waste.
I like the idea of doing this but maybe it's just too much work involved to be cost effective!
Olive oil price slide dents key southern European export | Business | guardian.co.uk


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## baldilocks

Well we've got estimates for C/H by means of a pellet burner and basically the pellet burner will cost about €5200 inc IVA and the related plumbing €3500 + IVA so over €9k. The running costs (pellets) will likely be €2600 a year plus electricity. ¡Muy costoso! So we are now investigating the cost of gas and gasoil C.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> Well we've got estimates for C/H by means of a pellet burner and basically the pellet burner will cost about €5200 inc IVA and the related plumbing €3500 + IVA so over €9k. The running costs (pellets) will likely be €2600 a year plus electricity. ¡Muy costoso! So we are now investigating the cost of gas and gasoil C.


That's a lot of money! Puts the winter fuel allowance into perspective doesn't it?


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## neddie

.....this site.. Solar Water Heating Projects and Plans has a lot of solar info.

While i don't have solar heating in the USA i am very interested in it even if it is used to supplement other forms of heating. While visiting Uruguay (where electricity is VERY expensive) i met a number of expats who have solar heating and they were all happy with what they had. 

If i move to Spain i will give solar heating serious consideration.


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## titania

*Does Spain have city gas* (gas delivered by pipes to homes in bigger towns)? If so what would be the cost of gas-central heating?

By way of example, my own house in France has it and I spend about 2'500 Euros a year for 250 square meters, old house, badly insulated. Hot water is solar and covers about 9 months a year - free apart from the installation costs of course, the rest of water heating being electric. I live near mountains (average low in winter is below 0°C).

I'm very happy with the gas heating. Previous to that I had horrible problems to heat the house. When I come over (either to Spain or Portugal), I would hope to be able to have city gas -- not bottles!


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## xabiaxica

titania said:


> *Does Spain have city gas* (gas delivered by pipes to homes in bigger towns)? If so what would be the cost of gas-central heating?
> 
> By way of example, my own house in France has it and I spend about 2'500 Euros a year for 250 square meters, old house, badly insulated. Hot water is solar and covers about 9 months a year - free apart from the installation costs of course, the rest of water heating being electric. I live near mountains (average low in winter is below 0°C).
> 
> I'm very happy with the gas heating. Previous to that I had horrible problems to heat the house. When I come over (either to Spain or Portugal), I would hope to be able to have city gas -- not bottles!


there might be in some areas - none near me though, as far as entire towns are concerned

yet I don't need bottles - I live on a modern urb which has huge gas tanks from which the gas is piped to the houses

it has been known to run out though


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## Pesky Wesky

titania said:


> *Does Spain have city gas* (gas delivered by pipes to homes in bigger towns)? If so what would be the cost of gas-central heating?
> 
> By way of example, my own house in France has it and I spend about 2'500 Euros a year for 250 square meters, old house, badly insulated. Hot water is solar and covers about 9 months a year - free apart from the installation costs of course, the rest of water heating being electric. I live near mountains (average low in winter is below 0°C).
> 
> I'm very happy with the gas heating. Previous to that I had horrible problems to heat the house. When I come over (either to Spain or Portugal), I would hope to be able to have city gas -- not bottles!


Yes, it does, but as Xabia says - not in all areas. We have it in Madrid and my MIL has it in Bilbao. As for the cost, I'm sorry I really don't know, but it's not cheap! We call it gas natural, but I believe in other regions they call it gas cuidad (are they different things?) so perhaps you could look it up?


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## kalohi

titania said:


> *Does Spain have city gas* (gas delivered by pipes to homes in bigger towns)? If so what would be the cost of gas-central heating?
> 
> By way of example, my own house in France has it and I spend about 2'500 Euros a year for 250 square meters, old house, badly insulated. Hot water is solar and covers about 9 months a year - free apart from the installation costs of course, the rest of water heating being electric. I live near mountains (average low in winter is below 0°C).
> 
> I'm very happy with the gas heating. Previous to that I had horrible problems to heat the house. When I come over (either to Spain or Portugal), I would hope to be able to have city gas -- not bottles!


They have it in the city of Seville, and it's also here in my town which is 6 kilometers outside of Seville. I don't use it (I use bottled gas) so I can't comment from personal experience about the price. But everyone says it's more expensive than bottled gas. If people have it it's because of the convenience and they're willing to pay more for it. My mother-in-law switched from bottles to city gas because she has back problems and couldn't move the bottles. But that lasted all of a year and she had her system switched over to electric because her gas bill was through the roof. She's very happy now with electric.

BTW, I'm talking about using gas for hot water heating, not for central heating. Here in Seville it's almost unheard of to have central heating.


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## baldilocks

titania said:


> I'm very happy with the gas heating. Previous to that I had horrible problems to heat the house. When I come over (either to Spain or Portugal), I would hope to be able to have city gas -- not bottles!


I used to have central heating by calor gas (propane) with tall bottles (I thiink they were 45kg of gas in each) in Wales and it was very saitsfactory costing about £50 per month during the coldest months. I had four bottles running as two pairs with and auto-changeover valve so that when one pair ran out, the supply chenged austomatically to the other (full) pair. I ma hoping to possibly get something similar here in Spain, although, if feasible, may have a tank. Waiting for estimates


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## bob_bob

neddie said:


> .....this site.. Solar Water Heating Projects and Plans has a lot of solar info.
> 
> While i don't have solar heating in the USA i am very interested in it even if it is used to supplement other forms of heating. While visiting Uruguay (where electricity is VERY expensive) i met a number of expats who have solar heating and they were all happy with what they had.
> 
> If i move to Spain i will give solar heating serious consideration.


Look in detail at the costs, the initial setup costs may take years to recoup. Gas central heating from bottles or tank may well be a cheaper and more reliable option.


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## Trubrit

I have gas from a central tank in the village and although I work full time my recent winter bill was 400e for 2 months. OUCH


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## gus-lopez

baldilocks said:


> I used to have central heating by calor gas (propane) with tall bottles (I thiink they were 45kg of gas in each) in Wales and it was very saitsfactory costing about £50 per month during the coldest months. I had four bottles running as two pairs with and auto-changeover valve so that when one pair ran out, the supply chenged austomatically to the other (full) pair. I ma hoping to possibly get something similar here in Spain, although, if feasible, may have a tank. Waiting for estimates


Don't even think about using them Alan , unless you have a bottomless pit of money! 
A friend of ours moved houses & had the gas system taken out & oil put in some years ago. When discussing it he said that a 5 bottle system ( two banks of 5 ) would last only 15 days !!!!!! I thought he was A) joking or B ) liked the temp up . 
This was in the days when 5 big bottles cost around 150€ to change. There is 35kgs in a big bottle & the cost now is around 63€/bottle. In addition the price of the big bottles is not regulated by the government ,therefore you are paying more in comparison to the small bottles. You will also pay more if you have a bulk tank.

Having installed many security fences/gates for bottle systems all of the people that had them installed have now installed wood burners. All of them state that regardless of how fugal they were/are running them 15 days is the absolute maximum that any could get from 5 cylinders ! I can assure you as well that having been in most of their houses you wouldn't even think there was any heating on!


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## titania

Many thanks all for replying to my question about city gas in Spain. Obviously, what one considers as expensive has different benchmarks for different people.

To me, central heating, comfort and convenience would be absolute priorities and I would prefer to do with less on other items in my life. Here in France, my gas bill of around 2'500 Euros yearly for a 250 sq.mts. seems pretty reasonable when compared to the other heating systems I had in this house before.

Look, I did the "back to naturals thing" ....

I had a heat pump for central heating and solar hot water: 9'900 Euros electricity bill that year plus 30'000 Euros outlay - that was including two bore holes which never produced enough water for the heat pump, so had to install an air-heat pump. Since temps here are below 0° the heat pump could not function well, so the installer put 6resistance heating rods inside the heat pump - essentially heating the air and the little birds. Hence the bill. Solar water heating was not working. I had no recourse in law for fraud.

Then, I did away with it because I could not afford these bills, nor could I afford a new central heating system. Did one winter with only 2 old chimneys, working by barely 12-15°C in my study. Try typing with cut-finger gloves.... Thankfully had some really warm feather duvets... but washing in cold water is terrible, and heating it on the cooker... not much better.

So I went "*******" and bought 5 electric hot water tanks (165E each), connected them to new cheap radiators (between 35E to 55E each - 23 of them) with pvc piping, installed circulation pumps and expansion tanks (about 200E all told) and managed one winter for a bill of 4'500 Euros which was swallowable until I got enough money for redoing the lot.

Next winter, I managed to get a gas condensing boiler for 550 Euros, redid the city gas connection 1'300 Euros and built a shed to house it. Removed the electric tanks/circulators/expansion. Work 1'800 Euros. Disconnected heat-pump from solar, upgraded solar hot water 3'000 Euros.

Total of the last operation: 6'650 Euros or thereabouts, plus a bill of only 2'500 Euros per year (well per winter), and solar hot water free 9 months a year. That's for my 250 sq.mts. as I said, badly insulated old house. Ah, also, 8 people in house!!!

So you can understand why I am happy with gas    - to me, if I was to contemplate spending a proportionate amount of money in Spain for just myself and smaller house, I would not mind. I'd get a smaller car, and tighten my purse on other things.


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## zenkarma

titania said:


> *Does Spain have city gas* (gas delivered by pipes to homes in bigger towns)? If so what would be the cost of gas-central heating?


I came across this site recently for comparing electricity costs and noticed it had an option for Gas natural. If you know what region you'll be in (or even better a post code) and the approximate number of Kw's of gas you'll use per year, you can get an estimate on the likely cost. 

From what I can tell, electricity (the Kw price seems to be double) and gas costs in Spain are significantly higher than they are in the UK, but that might not be much use to you if you're in France 

Comisión Nacional de la Energía. Comparador de Ofertas de Energía: Gas y Electricidad


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## titania

Zenkarma, thanks indeed for this information.

I'm in France now, family in UK, but looking to relocate either to Spain or to Portugal, hence comparing all that can be compared. So your link is very useful.



zenkarma said:


> I came across this site.....
> .....
> 
> Comisión Nacional de la Energía. Comparador de Ofertas de Energía: Gas y Electricidad


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## titania

On my thread in the Portugal forum (page 8), one of the posters spoke about LPG gas, and that it might in the future be a solution for central heating - at least there. Also, that shale gas is becoming an energy much sought after, which may help lowering the price of gas in the not-too-distant future (2020), depending of course on the speed of development in each country (link to Portugal forum on this).

Would LPG similarly be a possibility for central heating in Spain?


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## baldilocks

titania said:


> On my thread in the Portugal forum (page 8), one of the posters spoke about LPG gas, and that it might in the future be a solution for central heating - at least there. Also, that shale gas is becoming an energy much sought after, which may help lowering the price of gas in the not-too-distant future (2020), depending of course on the speed of development in each country (link to Portugal forum on this).
> 
> Would LPG similarly be a possibility for central heating in Spain?


Yes, it is one of the things I am looking into now. Guy comes Thursday (maybe!) for estimate.


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## gus-lopez

titania said:


> On my thread in the Portugal forum (page 8), one of the posters spoke about LPG gas, and that it might in the future be a solution for central heating - at least there. Also, that shale gas is becoming an energy much sought after, which may help lowering the price of gas in the not-too-distant future (2020), depending of course on the speed of development in each country (link to Portugal forum on this).
> 
> Would LPG similarly be a possibility for central heating in Spain?


That is what they use. It isn't cheap.


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## titania

Well, I just looked at my gas bill for 2011-2012 - one year, though one could say more exactly, one winter, the bill being spread over the whole year, payable every two months.

It's 35'000 kWh at a cost of about 2'500 Euros.

To recap: 250 sq.mts. Old uninsulated house with 8 people plus huge 40 sq.mts half insulated veranda used as a living room. Mountain climate, average 0°C or less in winter. Peaks at 6-7°C and troughs at -10-15°C. Heating on from last week September or first of October, heating off last week of April. Temperature at 23-25°C here, anything less and I hibernate. New condensating gas boiler in insulated shed outside, new cheap radiators with apparent pvc pipes (not sunk in walls). No hot water with gas (it's solar and electric), no gas cooking.

With the link that Zenkarma has kindly provided, central heating expense for city gas in Spain for 35'000 kWh would be between 2'230 and 2'500 euros, so essentially the same as my bill in France.

If I were living in Spain, on the Costa del Sol, I would have a much smaller house, and the winter would be less harsh and less long, so the expense would be considerably less than in France. Yeah!

Next item, checking on LPG expense in both Spain and Portugal...


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## zenkarma

titania said:


> Next item, checking on LPG expense in both Spain and Portugal...


If you were in a house on the Costa's I don't think I'd bother with gas at all. Gas prices will only ever go upwards as will electricity and with the lesser requirement for heat (although it can and does get chilly over the winter months there) if I were in your shoes I'd be looking at investing in a Solar system for the majority of electricity usage, solar hot water and a wood burning stove.

The more you can rid yourself of dependency on the gas and electricity companies the cheaper your energy will be. If the house you're looking at purchasing doesn't have those systems installed I'd budget for €15-20k on top of the house price to have them installed.

Energy prices will only ever keep going upwards, the days of cheap energy are well and truly over. They keys for saving money now are sustainable energy sources such as solar, good insulation and being more frugal with energy use


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## titania

zenkarma said:


> If you were in a house on the Costa's I don't think I'd bother with gas at all. Gas prices will only ever go upwards as will electricity and with the lesser requirement for heat (although it can and does get chilly over the winter months there) if I were in your shoes I'd be looking at investing in a Solar system for the majority of electricity usage, solar hot water and a wood burning stove.
> 
> The more you can rid yourself of dependency on the gas and electricity companies the cheaper your energy will be. If the house you're looking at purchasing doesn't have those systems installed I'd budget for €15-20k on top of the house price to have them installed.
> 
> Energy prices will only ever keep going upwards, the days of cheap energy are well and truly over. They keys for saving money now are sustainable energy sources such as solar, good insulation and being more frugal with energy use


Thanks Zenkarma. Indeed, dependency on State companies is one of my pet hates. Having been on that road before though, and having lost almost all my lovely silver feathers with renewable energies, I'm not sure I would now want to go all ecological and/or gridless.

To start with, I'm too old to ever hope to see a return on all the investment, that is supposing it's done right to start with. An expense of 10 to 20 KE seems a bit on the low side anyway -- I spent 30 KE for a heat pump, solar hot water and 2 bore holes. All that's left now of that system is the solar hot water, which I'm happy with. I had to re-buy/install a completely new gas central heating system and I'm also happy with it.

As for any type of wood burning (even coal burning), I am not willing to sort, stock, shift and clean all that. I already have rheumatism and it's unlikely to get much better as I age and become a respectable lady.

As for solar hot water, three times yes. In fact, being a little handy with tools, I would hope that when I retire, hopefully in 374 days' time, I would actually build it myself, it's not difficult, especially if there is no or hardly any frost where I end up living.

As for water, depending on the land and whatever permissions would be needed, I probably would want a well, or a bore hole, that yes.

For electricity, no. Too expensive to install, too much changing my existing equipments, too complicated, whether it's solar, hydro or windmills - though I'll admit the idea appeals.

As for being frugal, yes I will be in some respects, but not in others. I'm willing to downsize house and car, but not heating.

I can make soup with grass, I can stew any meat cut (except horse meat!!!), eat rice and beans, drink water only. I would be quite capable of adapting and running my smaller car on olive oil. But I balk at living in the cold. Had enough of learning to use newspapers as blankets when young and penniless and crying myself to sleep over cold toes not having enough money to buy several pairs of socks. Not ever ever again.

For interest, below is one of the first results I got from my friend Google... I'll probably find better with a more thorough search:

*Fósiles*:


 Gasóleo C: 8,95 c€/kWh
 GLP canalizado: 8,12 c€/kWh
 GLP Butano-propano (11 kg): 10,51 c€/kWh
 Fuelóleo: 6,66 c€/kWh
 Gas natural: 5,93 c€/kWh (+ coste fijo mensual)
*Biocombustibles* (precios en fábrica):


 Pellets saco de 15 kg: 4,51 c€/kWh
 Pellets granel: 3,38 c€/kWh
 Cáscara almendra: 2,22 – 1,27 c€/kWh
 Astilla pino: 1,39 c€/kWh
 Zuro de maíz: 1,29-0,82 c€/kWh
*Electricidad*:


 Electricidad: 15 c€/kWh (+ coste fijo mensual)

_Source:_ Infobiomassa » Precios del pellet doméstico en España, octubre 2012


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## bob_bob

Or move to Gran Canaria and have no heating bills at all


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