# Life in Portugal



## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

I was wondering if someone can tell me about life in central Portugal. I was looking at buying and retiring and fixing up a ruin. I was wondering if building materials are readily available. Thank You


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Lovely area of Portugal, capital is Coimbra, with a widely diversified landscape from the coastal plain to the Estrella's running up to the border.
Building materials readily available throughout Portugal, and normally delivered over considerable distances FOC, but you should do some research about what you mean as a ruin.

A ruin would reguire architect drawn plans submitted and approved and work carried out by a licensed builder, you might arrange to help him, but you would not be allowed to do work yourself.
If you indeed want to do work yourself then you should look for a property that requires renovation, it might well be extensive renovation, but it does mean you can do a lot of the work yourself.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

Hi Canoe, when you state ruin do you mean just a pile of stones and wood or is it a pile of stones and wood that is registered with the local Camra.

I have been offered a pile of stones and am just starting to check it out.

Thanks

Rob


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

As a rule of thumb if it's got a roof of some description, then there is far less of a problem getting necessary permissions.

What you've been offered might not even get planning permission, a lot will depend on what is actually registered and land designation.
Just because a pile of stones and or stones and wood is there doesn't necessarily mean you can or would get permission to rebuild it!

Check the Caderneta Predial and registration at Conservatoria for starters, your looking for the _ruin being mentioned or registered_ also the Camra's PDM to see if property falls within a_ building _area, more likely to get permissions than if it's a_ Rustica_ designated area.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

FWIW, we've been house hunting in central Portugal (near Figuiero Dos Vinhos) for the last 3 months and have seen a fair number of places that range from finished renovations to places needing modernisation to ruins that consist of not much more than a pile of stones. 

There's plenty of choice available and plenty of good builders to do the work but a lot depends on where the place is, whether it's designated, rural or urban etc, which camra the property lies and a number of other factors.

As a rule of thumb, renovations tend to be easier to get permissions for if you stick to the original footprint of the building and use materials that are similar to the original building.

Also don't expect many sellers to be willing to take low offers..... many are not. They might drop a few thousand at most but not more than that......


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

If it's bargains your looking for, you need an expat owner who wants or needs to sell, Portuguese owners have a totally different outlook to property values and selling.

You can generally extend by 20% with permissions and in our area (non reserve) Camras are more than happy to renovations with a mix of traditional and very modern contemporary extensions.

How's the import going?


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

canoeman said:


> How's the import going?


Car and household goods arrived safe, sound and free of tax just before Christmas. 

I'm now using the car as our daily driver and will begin the matriculation process in a few days time. The only hassle factors are the price of fuel here and a 5.9 litre V8 engine and the fact I'm told I can't have a GLP conversion done until matriculation is complete.

Household goods (as far as I can see) appear to be undamaged and all there and is now in storage in Lisbon.

Oh and our cats also arrived safe and sound a month or two ago and are now happily ensconsed in Casa Do Po with us! 

Can't tell you how glad I'll be to get a house bought, finished and have our own stuff around us again though.

I should have posted the news when the car arrived but sadly had a family bereavement that has been taking up a lot of my time.....


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## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

Forgive my ignorance, and thank you for responding. It sounds like you are saying that an individual may not be able to remodel their own property. Or, are there various stages to home occupation? If a property is classified as the realtor as being able to be remodeled is that different than a ruin because of a paperwork term. Thank You.


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

I totally agree withi Canoeman. 
A portuguese vendor will put a price on the property(or pile of stones ) he/she wished to sell and will very rarely budge from that price.
It is almost so bad that they will let the property go to ruin rather than drop the price.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

JosePantalio said:


> Forgive my ignorance, and thank you for responding. It sounds like you are saying that an individual may not be able to remodel their own property. Or, are there various stages to home occupation? If a property is classified as the realtor as being able to be remodeled is that different than a ruin because of a paperwork term. Thank You.


You need to understand Portuguese planning and building regulations.
If the ruin or building reguires_ planning permission_, then plans must be drawn up by a licensed architect, equally the building permit although in your name can only be obtained by a correctly licensed builder, with the correct insurances, plant, etc. He has to present the necessary documents to the Camra before they will actually issue the build license. You as an individual cannot be given the license.

Just because there's a ruin it does not mean that you can rebuild it yourself without obtaining the correct permissions or meeting current building regulations.

There is a vast difference between a ruin and a remodel

If you bought a house that requires renovation, then generally you can do work yourself, I don't say definitely only because certain things might require approval or like gas a qualified trades person or possibly a more minor licence for example to re-roof. 

Or, are there various stages to home occupation? not really basically you sign the Escritura, move in and register property in your name.

On a new build then Licença de Utilização, Ficha Technica de Habitação, Acoustic Certificates all required before occupancy.

Properties built pre 1951 reguire a Certificate from Camra or a statement in Escritura saying they where built pre 1951 or are a Habitable building
Property built post 1951 reguire a Habitation License
All properties when sold now require an Energy Certificate even a ruin!


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## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

Response to Canoe 

Very informative Thank You.

A realtor I have been speaking to made the comment that once you buy the property it can NEVER be taken from you. I am assuming that means if you pay the property taxes, correct? I guess I am confused over ownership. In the USA a person can loose property rights in as little as 3 years if they dont pay the annual property taxes. Is it the same in Portugal? I ask this because it would seem that if a person cannot keep the property in good repair it would appear that the ruins would be sold by the government like it is in the US to recover taxes and either demolish or rebuild the property.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Property taxes, IMI, yearly tax to pay in April each year, non payments results in fines, could they take property away from you yes, if Financas decided only way to recover fines, taxes or any Fiscal debt was re-possession. It is a worst case scenario though.
You maybe don't realize that property tax here can be a very small amount, €20-30 although that is set to change.

But if taxes are paid then Financas have no interest in you. The Camra (Regional Council) however can compel you to repair, demolish building if it was a danger to others or a neighbour.


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## anapedrosa (Mar 21, 2011)

A couple of things we learned over the last year:

1) We looked at a home that required renovation, which had originally built where a ruin had been. The agent advised us that a previous sale fell through because the buyers made the purchase conditional on being able to get permission to extend the house. The camera would not grant the extension, that include a pool as a pool is considered in the amount of building space allowed. The price on this house (still listed) keeps dropping (expats I believe).
2)We ended up purchasing a property to build a home by the Obidos Lagoon. It is a plot, with electric, water and sewage supplied to the property and permission to build was already established. We have completed the first stage of design (house & floor plans, but not detailed plans). These plans will go to the Camara and the engineer (a structural engineer with architect on staff) estimates 2-3 months for the first approval. At that point he will complete the detailed plans (electric, plumbing, heating, etc...) which will also have to be submitted to the Camara for approval, he estimates 1 month. Then we will go through the bid process to select a builder. 
I'm sharing this experience primarily so you get a sense of the time that it takes to get permission.
I also recommend reading threads on this site on buying property. A good agent and a good lawyer are key, you can usually get referrals through the forum.

On the point of Portuguese holding to their price, this may hold true for the agricultural lands as I don't believe the tax changes will impact them. However, Portuguese owners start having to pay higher taxes on empty properties, I suspect their motivation to sell will increase. We were able to negotiate our price down with a Portuguese seller as they needed the money, I think this trend may also increase (but we were willing to walk away).


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

anapedrosa said:


> These plans will go to the Camara and the engineer (a structural engineer with architect on staff) estimates 2-3 months for the first approval. At that point he will complete the detailed plans (electric, plumbing, heating, etc...) which will also have to be submitted to the Camara for approval, he estimates 1 month. Then we will go through the bid process to select a builder.
> I'm sharing this experience primarily so you get a sense of the time that it takes to get permission.


Hi, 

Having been through this exact process as you are going through, (we are scheduled to take up occupancy in our house in April this year), I wish you well but I would encourage you to take an active role in the especialidades and their submission as it is worthwhile knowing in advance about such things as Fibre Optics, ZAP, DDA and Chair Lifts, Gas Points and the like. We found out as we went along and it can/could/does become expensive to change these once they have been approved.

We are nearly there and can only say that is has been worth the wait.

HTH

Rob


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## anapedrosa (Mar 21, 2011)

robc said:


> Hi,
> 
> Having been through this exact process as you are going through, (we are scheduled to take up occupancy in our house in April this year), I wish you well but I would encourage you to take an active role in the especialidades and their submission as it is worthwhile knowing in advance about such things as Fibre Optics, ZAP, DDA and Chair Lifts, Gas Points and the like. We found out as we went along and it can/could/does become expensive to change these once they have been approved.
> 
> ...


Thank you Rob, we were planning on being involved. However, I welcome any and all advice in this area. You mention Fibre Optics, ZAP, DDA and Gas Points (chair lifts we include space in the design but hope not to need for many years). I don't want to take this thread too off topic, but would appreciate any insights you can offer.
Have you chosen to install fibre optics to the house?
What are ZAP and DDA?
What should we consider about Gas Points (at this point I had assumed simply the oven)?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Gas points, new builds have to have external provision for natural gas to be connected to house circuit, apart from oven also hot water, C/H boiler to consider. It's one of the balances in building a house to your specs compared to what a possible Portuguese buyer would expect.

TV is one of few things run from point to point, if you intend using Satellite to pick up channels it's worthwhile having separate tubes to each room from central inlet as if you want different channels in different rooms or be able to record one channel and watch another, you need separate cables back to dish and LNB. Also considering position of power/signal for TV with the modern approach of wall mounting.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

anapedrosa said:


> Thank you Rob, we were planning on being involved. However, I welcome any and all advice in this area. You mention Fibre Optics, ZAP, DDA and Gas Points (chair lifts we include space in the design but hope not to need for many years). I don't want to take this thread too off topic, but would appreciate any insights you can offer.
> Have you chosen to install fibre optics to the house?
> What are ZAP and DDA?
> What should we consider about Gas Points (at this point I had assumed simply the oven)?


I think that Canoe has answered quite a few of the points but just a couple of things to pick up on.
1. DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) not only relates to chairs but also to the space required in one accessible bathroom to be able to rotate a wheelchair through 360 degrees. 
2. Fibre Optics, it is on its way and some Camra's are requiring pre installation as part of the especialidades. (Alcobaca did not, but ours were submitted end of 2009). It is worth checking as is the situation with regard to cable as opposed to satellite.


I assume that you are currently in the process of selecting the Builder, this is a most interesting exercise. If I can give you any insights on that then please let me know. We consulted with quite a few builders from a number of different sources before making a decision.

PM me if you want to discuss this off this post.

HTH

Rob


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## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

In the past couple of posts people are discussing the various requirements. What if you want to live the quiet remote life. Near a village that is only 5 or so families. Does local jurisdiction take precedence in building codes or does all of Portugal use the international building codes.


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

JosePantalio said:


> Response to Canoe
> 
> Very informative Thank You.
> 
> A realtor I have been speaking to made the comment that once you buy the property it can NEVER be taken from you. I am assuming that means if you pay the property taxes, correct? I guess I am confused over ownership. In the USA a person can loose property rights in as little as 3 years if they dont pay the annual property taxes. Is it the same in Portugal? I ask this because it would seem that if a person cannot keep the property in good repair it would appear that the ruins would be sold by the government like it is in the US to recover taxes and either demolish or rebuild the property.


What realtor is that? That was 15 years ago...
If you don´t pay your taxes in Portugal you lose your property. Hapens everyday in these times of hardship. As simple as not paying IMI. Finanças Auctions happen everyday, they are relenteless, and when they decide to take your house you are basically dead meat...worst than the banks methinks


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

JosePantalio said:


> In the past couple of posts people are discussing the various requirements. What if you want to live the quiet remote life. Near a village that is only 5 or so families. Does local jurisdiction take precedence in building codes or does all of Portugal use the international building codes.


Irrespective of where you live in PT all the buildings have to built according to the RGEU (Regulamento Geral das Edificações Urbanas) and by the Lei das Acessibilidades. These protocols will tell you things as the minimal area of the rooms and bathrooms (how many, what inside) etc etc. 

Things like the building implantation area in your plot, color of the house, minimal distances to adjacent plots vary from council to council, so you always refer to your Council Dept. 

There are other items that are in a grey area such as the infame "cota de soleira" that is atcually the maxinum high of the entrance step of your villa that will strongly depend on the council enginner/architect that will validate your plans.


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## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

That info was from a realtor on "homes for sale in Portugal website" Guess Realtors are the same all over the world.


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## JosePantalio (Jan 1, 2012)

paramonte said:


> Irrespective of where you live in PT all the buildings have to built according to the RGEU (Regulamento Geral das Edificações Urbanas) and by the Lei das Acessibilidades. These protocols will tell you things as the minimal area of the rooms and bathrooms (how many, what inside) etc etc.
> 
> Things like the building implantation area in your plot, color of the house, minimal distances to adjacent plots vary from council to council, so you always refer to your Council Dept.
> 
> There are other items that are in a grey area such as the infame "cota de soleira" that is atcually the maxinum high of the entrance step of your villa that will strongly depend on the council enginner/architect that will validate your plans.


Thank You Paramonte,

That clears a lot of misunderstanding for me. Really appreciate it.


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## anapedrosa (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you Canoe and Rob - I'll clip those points into my notes. Now I understand why the engineer took the initiative to design a wheelchair accessible bathroom into our home. We thought it was a good idea, but we hadn't asked for it originally. 
Rob, I will PM you regarding builders.


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## anapedrosa (Mar 21, 2011)

JosePantalio said:


> That info was from a realtor on "homes for sale in Portugal website" Guess Realtors are the same all over the world.


Jose - thank you for your question - sorry for the tangent. 

In terms of realtors, my understanding is that there are some problems in Portugal with unlicensed realtors and that it is important to make sure that your are dealing with a licensed realtor. It is also very important to verify what your realtor has told you. Accountability for statements can be an issue. The posts from omostra on the initial page of this forum 'tips for home buyers' include great tips. Although I believe he has retired now, he worked as an agent and has posted extensively on this site as well as on the Chavetejo site. 
If I recall a previous post referred you to the Camara - they are the source to verify any land claims. We chose to pay an engineer to validate claims (including the type of build and any restrictions) and to provide a value assessment before we made an offer. As the engineer also does valuations for the bank he gave us a decent report and we felt the added comfort well worth the expense.


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## Janina k (Nov 30, 2011)

*Reply*

Hello Everybody

Over the years we have meet so many people who are lucky to be living in Central Portugal. An important point that many have said is to make sure that you get an estate agent who is licensed. 

We met one licensed agent in a place called Vila Nova De Poiaris sorry if spelling is wrong. He was more interested in selling us property even though we told him that what he was showing us was not what we wanted. In the end we just walked away from him he was not what i had came to expect yet down the road in Gois Fred met a lady called Patricia who runs an estate agency there, now she was really so nice but no doubt Fred was flirting as he does. Again in Tomar we met some really nice agents. I do think that you need to find an agent who you feel happy with.

Lots of the people we have met have said forget what the forums say go to the local camara/ council because they are the only ones with the right answer. If we buy a house that has to have lots of work done then it's the camara who we will be getting are information from.


Krystyna


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

Three places do go: Câmara (can I build and what etc ?) , Conservatória (who owns this property and does it have a mortgage on it etc?) and the Finanças (has the previuos owner paid all the property taxes etc)

Yep, and the Câmara guys and girls are not always the "monsters" depicted in the press.

Mostly are eager to help. Do not forget these are the guys that will aprove or disaprove your plans. If you don´t speak portuguese begin your conversation explaning that you don´t speake the lingo, so can you speak english?

And never forget to ask to see the master PDM (what is the general council planning for the land around my plot, say, in ten years time?)


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

anapedrosa said:


> Thank you Canoe and Rob - I'll clip those points into my notes. Now I understand why the engineer took the initiative to design a wheelchair accessible bathroom into our home. We thought it was a good idea, but we hadn't asked for it originally.
> Rob, I will PM you regarding builders.


It's a part of current building regulations, no option


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Just like to say there are honest_ unlicensed estate agents_ out there, just because an agent is licensed doesn't mean they are efficient, truthful or honest.

If anyone is buying in a foreign country then they should take the time to understand the buying process in that country, where and how to make checks on anything a licensed, unlicensed agent or the seller tells you,  most forums try to correct the "you can do what you want" and urge people to double check the facts.


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