# Moving to Spain-Should we get married first?



## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hi there,

I am 30 and living in NYC, and most likely moving to Spain within the next 2 years or so. My boyfriend will be getting a tax free pension from the NYPD for getting hurt on the job, so we will have a very steady source of income. America doesn't have much to keep us here. 

I was wondering, should we get married before or after we go? Are there issues in relocating to Spain that would make certain things difficult for a non-married couple? Are their any social stigmas that would behoove us to get married here in the US first? From my research, it doesn't seem like it will be much of a problem, but I just wanted to double check with those who truly know and have experienced it. 

I thank you in advance for any help/advice you can give. 

Best,

Katie


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Many of the younger people here do not bother with marriage, they just live together.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks for your input! I know in some places not being married can present a real issue, (and we do want to get married) but I wasn't sure if it was imperative we did it before we left. Thank you!


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## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi Katie and welcome to the forum 

I *think* that as long as you can prove you have enough money (possibly in a Spanish bank account), you should be OK. I moved here with my husband recently and was able to get my residency certificate without having to prove this as we showed marriage certificate, but I guess that as long as you can prove you have enough money (don't know what the amount is), you should be OK. I have no idea about visas either 

As Hepa said, socially I don't see a problem - we've met plenty of couples who live together and aren't married.

All the best with the move - any idea on where you're moving to?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I would suggest that you enquire if your tax free NYPD pension, will be taxable once you reside in Spain. You may be able to do this when you are making visa enquires with the Spanish Consulate in the U.S.A.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

We are looking mostly around Javea, Moraira, Valencia, Alicante area. Don't want to be in a coity per se, but outside near water would be ideal. Javea is a real contender right now. If anyone has ANY suggestions please feel free to let me know, as I am really just feeling around in the dark right now!

I have looked into the pension being taxed, but since its technically disability (because he got hurt and will have stopped working long before he was eligible for retiring) and a police pension, I do not believe it will be. I have found this on most websites. I realize we are not from the UK but I cannot imagine the rules are different. Nevertheless I will be checking with the consulate as you mentioned:

"If you become a Spanish tax resident, then your pension income will be liable to Spanish income tax.

_There is one exception, however: if you have a pension from government service (eg, civil service, local authority, fire service, police, certain teaching posts, but not the NHS) then your pension remains liable only to UK tax and not Spanish tax._

The amount will be around $60,000 USD when it is all said and done-so we will have a steady income-something I know is not necessarily common in Spain right now, so I think it will be helpful.

By that time I will be certified to teach yoga, and I also teach swimming, so will be able to make my own money here and there with private lessons in both.

Thanks everyone for all your help. I know 1 1/2 -2 years seems like a long way off, but I feel like there is much to do to make sure this is exactly what is right for us. I don't want to end up like so many I have read about-moving with absolutely no idea what to expect and having it fail, although most of those stories fail due to thinking you can get a quick job there so at least that will not be an issue!


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Unless one of you is Spanish Citizen it could be difficult to get married here in Spain from a procedural perspective, so I would suggest you eithet get married at home or don't bother.
I have been living in sin with my partner in Spain for the last 8 years - with 2 Children born here (Gasp!)
Not sure what a behoove is though...


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Is that $60k a year pension? About €60k a year, you will live better on that in Spain than you do in NYC.

If your intending on getting married then do it before you start applying for visa's... start looking at visa applications now; I think you need to jump a few hoops and have patience to get them lol.

Don't buy over here, property prices are down, still going down, and won't be lifting for a good while so its a renters market which in turn gives you mobility should you fancy a move.

Good luck


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> _There is one exception, however: if you have a pension from government service (eg, civil service, local authority, fire service, police, certain teaching posts, but not the NHS) then your pension remains liable only to UK tax and not Spanish tax._


This applies to the U.K. tax laws where certain government pensions can only be taxed at source. The U.K. and Spain have an agreement not to double tax.

However your pension is tax free in the U.S.A., that does not necessarily mean that if you become resident in Spain, it will still be tax free under Spanish law. In order to protect your pension, you should seriously consider taking professional advice, from a lawyer or accountant, who has experience in the taxation laws of both nations.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> I have looked into the pension being taxed, but since its technically disability (because he got hurt and will have stopped working long before he was eligible for retiring) and a police pension, I do not believe it will be. I have found this on most websites. I realize we are not from the UK but I cannot imagine the rules are different. Nevertheless I will be checking with the consulate as you mentioned:
> 
> "If you become a Spanish tax resident, then your pension income will be liable to Spanish income tax.
> 
> There is one exception, however: if you have a pension from government service (eg, civil service, local authority, fire service, police, certain teaching posts, but not the NHS) then your pension remains liable only to UK tax and not Spanish tax.


Not sure why you are looking at the double taxation agreement between the UK and Spain, when your partners income will be from the USA, and the very last thing you should do is think the rules are the same.

There is a double taxation agreement between the USA and Spain http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/spain.pdf and this the one you should be looking at. It seems to me that it is covered by articles 20 and 21, but you really need to clarify whether it is a pension, or a benefit.

As posted above, you need to seek professional advice


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

If you want to be married then do it in USA as you will find it very difficult to get married in Spain. I know of several couples (English) who have doscovered they are not allowed to be married here. BUT you can, as a married couple, have a church blessing here.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

I cannot thank you guys enough for all your help. you have certainly pointed me in the right direction in terms of what I should be doing.

My father is a lawyer so I will have him point me in the right direction of a tax attorney.

I believe that IRS link you gave me indicates that we will not be taxed by spain as it seems we can only be taxed by the place where he worked ie USA, NY, NYC what have you. But nevertheless, we will seek professional advice. As for getting married, it seems like getting married here is clearly the best option.

Does anyone know if you apply for visas differently if you are married then if you are simply a couple that plans on living together? From these posts it seems like that would be the case, and if we did not marry before going over there, if we came back to the US to get married at some point, would we have to again file all new paperwork and passports etc?

I am so glad I found this board so far in advance of us making the trek to spain, as everyone has been very helpful and it is clear that this will be a long process, and it's great to be able to start it now!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Definitely get married first - preferably before you start any applications to move to Spain. Reason: you will both be quoting the NYPD pension as your income as a basis for getting (a) a visa and, (b) residency and you will need to be able to show that you have sufficient income to support yourselves without recourse to public funds and you will need medical insurance until and unless you become a contributor to the Spanish Social Security system, assuming you can obtain a working visa. If you can't get a visa that allows you to work, either as an employee or self-employed (autonomo in Spanish = you have to pay a minimum of €260 per month into Soc. Sec.), then you *will have* to arrange private healthcare via insurance.

Be very careful about looking for information on the internet since you are coming from a country that is in neither the EU or EEA either of which would give you certain privileges and information relating to those two organisations may not apply to you.

Further on marriage, if you don't do it before you start the process you will hav eto restart with all new paperwork. If you are just cohabiting, and you are both dependent on his income, there is no assurance to the Spanish authorities that you won't just go your separate ways when you get here and you, personally, not being the one with an income could become dependent on the state. If you are here more than 183 days, you become a tax resident in Spain and Spain considers your worldwide income (the same as the USA) so you will need to get clued up on the tax treaties bewteen Spain and the USA to avoid being taxed twice.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

One last question-would it make sense to have my father become an Irish citizen (3 of his grandparents were born in Ireland) and then become one myself? I have checked into this and you can become an Irish citizen if your great grandparents were born there IF your parent applies and receives citizenship first. It seems to me being part of the EU would make things significantly easier on me should I decide to work.

Looking at the tax treaties it seems we won't be taxed by Spain as it is actually a disability pension (no pensions are actually taxed twice in regards to spain and the US it seems anyway) but nevertheless, I want to be 100% sure about this, and will consult a lawyer before proceeding even with paperwork.

And thank you for your warning on looking on the internet-you are absolutley right, most things apply to EU citizens only, specifically UK. It seems not many Americans are looking to go to Spain permanently-probably because of how difficult it is to find work there.

Health Insurance wise-he will have health insurance for the rest of his life through the NYPD-however I will have to inquire if that extends at all to another country. It very well may not (esp considering how crappy our insurers are here with being flexible). Private insurance might be our only option.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> One last question-would it make sense to have my father become an Irish citizen (3 of his grandparents were born in Ireland) and then become one myself? I have checked into this and you can become an Irish citizen if your great grandparents were born there IF your parent applies and receives citizenship first. It seems to me being part of the EU would make things significantly easier on me should I decide to work.
> 
> Looking at the tax treaties it seems we won't be taxed by Spain as it is actually a disability pension (no pensions are actually taxed twice in regards to spain and the US it seems anyway) but nevertheless, I want to be 100% sure about this, and will consult a lawyer before proceeding even with paperwork.
> 
> ...



if you CAN get Irish citizenship then it would certainly make things easier for you - you would have automatic right to reside & work in Spain as an EU citizen - (subject to proof of income & healthcare which you can easily cover) & your husband also as the spouse of an EU citizen

most visas for non-EU citizens, ( except specific investment/sponsored work visas), specifically prohibit working, so if you want to work you wouldn't be able to


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> if you CAN get Irish citizenship then it would certainly make things easier for you - you would have automatic right to reside & work in Spain as an EU citizen - (subject to proof of income & healthcare which you can easily cover) & your husband also as the spouse of an EU citizen
> 
> most visas for non-EU citizens, ( except specific investment/sponsored work visas), specifically prohibit working, so if you want to work you wouldn't be able to


apparently his health insurance here would cover us there-we would still need to purchase health insurance there as well since we would be residents there?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> apparently his health insurance here would cover us there-we would still need to purchase health insurance there as well since we would be residents there?


as long as his health insurance covers you as _residents _here, then no - you wouldn't need to purchase any other


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

If you already have Health Insurance which covers Spain, then that would be sufficient.

Off Topic, my father used to live in El Portet near Moraira. One of the residents that lived in the same area was an ex police officer, from I believe New York. However that was in 1995 or 1996.

Moraira is not too far from Javea.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Hepa-

That is funny, I have been looking at Moraira as well. The NYPD has a great setup as you can retire after 20 years (many start when they are 20-retired by 40) with half their top pay as a pension and lifelong healthcare. Top pay, depending on rank, can be $150,000 or more (especially if they work longer then the 20 years-or really kill it on OT their last year) so you can imagine that having $75,000 tax free for the rest of your life is quite conducive to moving out of America. I am surprised not more people do it-I would think it has a lot to do with the fact that the kind of guys you generally get as NYPD cops are not quite adventurous when it comes to moving outside the US and have very strong ties to NYC (and if not NY-Florida which is basically NY south) so do not want to leave. I know my bf loves his job, so I feel sad about this, but am taking his inevitable dismissal bc of this work related injury as a sign that we can do what we have always wanted to do which is live abroad and travel (I did live in ireland in college for a semester). It just makes sense to us-NY is very expensive to live obviously, and the quality of life is nowhere near what it is in spain (healthwise especially).

I think our plan (if all the logistics work) is to rent for a year or two in maybe one or two different places and travel all along the coast from Valencia to Malaga looking at places to eventually buy-but I am in no rush. We plan to take a two week info-cation in september to Valencia and Alicante to really be able to explore the coast.

Would be funny if we were in a bar in Moraira in September and run into this guy you speak of!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> Hepa-
> 
> That is funny, I have been looking at Moraira as well. The NYPD has a great setup as you can retire after 20 years (many start when they are 20-retired by 40) with half their top pay as a pension and lifelong healthcare. Top pay, depending on rank, can be $150,000 or more (especially if they work longer then the 20 years-or really kill it on OT their last year) so you can imagine that having $75,000 tax free for the rest of your life is quite conducive to moving out of America. I am surprised not more people do it-I would think it has a lot to do with the fact that the kind of guys you generally get as NYPD cops are not quite adventurous when it comes to moving outside the US and have very strong ties to NYC (and if not NY-Florida which is basically NY south) so do not want to leave. I know my bf loves his job, so I feel sad about this, but am taking his inevitable dismissal bc of this work related injury as a sign that we can do what we have always wanted to do which is live abroad and travel (I did live in ireland in college for a semester). It just makes sense to us-NY is very expensive to live obviously, and the quality of life is nowhere near what it is in spain (healthwise especially).
> 
> ...


If you are in NY where a lot of Spanish is spoken, it might well be a good idea to get started, unless you already speak it quite well, on learning some Spanish. However, bear in mind that, unless you get a Spanish native teaching you, you may well end up with a confusing accent and with some/many vocabulary differences from what you will find in Spain.

There is always a possibility that you will end up in an area where Valenciano or Catalan or... is widely spoken, but if you have Spanish, you will be off to a head start. Of course there is always a possibility that you will finish up in a totally different area and have a different linguistic challenge - Gallego, Basque, Andalu', or any of the other dialectical differences.  All adds to the challenge of a new country and ultimately the fun.

Question: Do you really need to be in an area where there are non-Spanish be they, expats or immigrants from another country? If you are looking for improvements healthwise, it means changing your diet and that will mean getting away from the burger/pizza zone and more into Spanish dominated areas where you will get a diet of Spanish foods.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> If you are in NY where a lot of Spanish is spoken, it might well be a good idea to get started, unless you already speak it quite well, on learning some Spanish. However, bear in mind that, unless you get a Spanish native teaching you, you may well end up with a confusing accent and with some/many vocabulary differences from what you will find in Spain.
> 
> There is always a possibility that you will end up in an area where Valenciano or Catalan or... is widely spoken, but if you have Spanish, you will be off to a head start. Of course there is always a possibility that you will finish up in a totally different area and have a different linguistic challenge - Gallego, Basque, Andalu', or any of the other dialectical differences.  All adds to the challenge of a new country and ultimately the fun.
> 
> Question: Do you really need to be in an area where there are non-Spanish be they, expats or immigrants from another country? If you are looking for improvements healthwise, it means changing your diet and that will mean getting away from the burger/pizza zone and more into Spanish dominated areas where you will get a diet of Spanish foods.


after 9 years here I still don't speak Valenciano

my girls do pretty much all of their studies in Valenciano (& speak it) , I teach maths & do other homework support for English kids using Valenciano text books - I can understand most of it both written & spoken......... yet actually SPEAK IT 

yes, we have a lot of immigrants here - but it is still Spain & the Spanish 'locals' still dominate - burgers & pizzas are of course available - as is British food from Iceland............ but that doesn't mean you have to buy it!!

I now rarely speak English outside the house unless in the company of other Brits (mostly just for work) ........ although, to be fair, you can get by without Spanish - you don't really 'live here' without it


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Baldilocks,

I do not speak Spanish (can read it a bit) BUT I absolutely plan on learning it. I have already started reading reviews to different learning packages (weirdly enough Rosetta Stone does not get good reviews on Amazon) and will buy one when I am comfortable that it is the right one. Additionally my boyfriend speak spanish. His mother is Cuban and his father Argentine. Now, he is not perfectly fluent, but is as close as you can get. Of course I realize the dialects are not the same, so he will be learning as well, but he can certainly understand enough and teach me as well (albeit with a confusing accent LOL).

I would never dream of moving to another country and not be at the very least a beginner when it comes to conversation. I personally find it disrepectful! So I will be learning Spanish, of course I am sure I will have to learn a different dialect when I am there. My main concern is to show the Spaniards that I am not moving to their country and expect them to fully accomodate MY language! I am actually quite excited, as you say, for this adventure in learning a new language!

We don't need to be near a large community of expats, and frankly it seems that no matter where we end up we won't be finding a large American Expat community. Which is fine by both of us. I didn't actually pick that area based on expats, we have just been looking at the southeastern coast bc of climate and culture mostly- he specifically wasn't that interested in the north bc of the language problems that we may run into with the Basque.

As for foods, I intend to eat almost exclusively a Spanish diet-I love Spanish/Mediterranean food, esp the seafood, olive oil etc. I will not be out looking for more then an occasional burger at all. As I am sure you know, nothing compares to the pizza in NYC, so I won't be actively seeking that out either I am an extremely adventurous eater, and am much looking forward to spanish cuisine and the fresh fruits and veggies. Here in the US, our food production is such that most fruits and veggies would be unrecognizable to the majority of Europeans, especially in taste. It is no wonder we have obesity problems, its not just that people eat too much, they eat processed crap almost exclusively. My boyfriend while less adventurous in general when it comes to food, is well acquainted with Spanish food as his family is originally from spain (both the Cuban and Argentine side) so he loves it as well .


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> Baldilocks,
> 
> I do not speak Spanish (can read it a bit) BUT I absolutely plan on learning it. I have already started reading reviews to different learning packages (weirdly enough Rosetta Stone does not get good reviews on Amazon) and will buy one when I am comfortable that it is the right one. Additionally my boyfriend speak spanish. His mother is Cuban and his father Argentine. Now, he is not perfectly fluent, but is as close as you can get. Of course I realize the dialects are not the same, so he will be learning as well, but he can certainly understand enough and teach me as well (albeit with a confusing accent LOL).
> 
> I would never dream of moving to another country and not be at the very least a beginner when it comes to conversation. I personally find it disrepectful! So I will be learning Spanish, of course I am sure I will have to learn a different dialect when I am there. My main concern is to show the Spaniards that I am not moving to their country and expect them to fully accomodate MY language! I am actually quite excited, as you say, for this adventure in learning a new language!


So many come here and expect otherwise and wonder why they are not particularly liked. When I am walking up the street and come across somebody whom I either know or am fairly sure is an expat (Brit/Dutch/German/US), although I could quite easily greet them in their own language, I don't - I always greet them in Spanish. They invariably put their heads down, avoid eye-contact and rush past in case I'm going to engage them in a Spanish conversation - it's hilarious!



Katiebelle2882 said:


> We don't need to be near a large community of expats, and frankly it seems that no matter where we end up we won't be finding a large American Expat community. Which is fine by both of us. I didn't actually pick that area based on expats, we have just been looking at the southeastern coast bc of climate and culture mostly- he specifically wasn't that interested in the north bc of the language problems that we may run into with the Basque.
> 
> As for foods, I intend to eat almost exclusively a Spanish diet-I love Spanish/Mediterranean food, esp the seafood, olive oil etc. I will not be out looking for more then an occasional burger at all. As I am sure you know, nothing compares to the pizza in NYC, so I won't be actively seeking that out either I am an extremely adventurous eater, and am much looking forward to spanish cuisine and the fresh fruits and veggies. Here in the US, our food production is such that most fruits and veggies would be unrecognizable to the majority of Europeans, especially in taste. It is no wonder we have obesity problems, its not just that people eat too much, they eat processed crap almost exclusively. My boyfriend while less adventurous in general when it comes to food, is well acquainted with Spanish food as his family is originally from spain (both the Cuban and Argentine side) so he loves it as well .


In a word "GOOD" - you have taken the first five steps toward coming to Spain and making a success of it.

You will not find seasonal fruit and veg at times other than when they are in season, nor will you find fruit and veg that "has flown several thousand miles to be here with you, tonight" (TV prog "This is Your Life" with various presenters)  You will find, however, that when fruit and veg are in season, there is often a glut of them. What do you do with 80kg of tomatoes, 100kg potatoes (we have just had to start buying potatoes for the first time since early June), 7 cos lettuce (? you can't freeze them/can or bottle them/dry them, etc), 30 aubergines, 15kg peaches, umpteen bunches of grapes, five sacks of broad beans, or currently 150 kakis rapidly ripening and 50kg almonds waiting to be shelled, etc. If you aren't a cook - you need to learn fast because if you end up in a Spanish community and make friends with the locals (which you should if you speak the language) you are likely to be on the receiving end of a load of the surplus produce from their huertas/os because we don't have one. We repay them with cookies, cakes etc which many of them can't cook because they don't have ovens with graduated controls.

Meat is quite often pork (cerdo) or chicken (pollo), although there is less beef (buey/vacuño), veal (tierno), lamb (cordero). Cuts of meat might well be different from what you are used to, e.g. you don't often find leg of pork (it goes to make jamon) but pork loins (lomos) are common - I always buy the complete loin (cinta de lomo) and cut it to make one or more roasting joints plus a number of steaks. Spanish butchers tend, unless you specify otherwise, to cut everything into slices about 6mm thick for flash-frying (we like ours about 3 times that thickness). 

Cheeses are something different - be prepared for a taste explosion. From my experience in the US of cheese, you have nothing that can, in any way, compare with the local cheeses in Spain (but, unless you have an impaired sense of smell avoid the Manchego in oil), you can even get "squeaky cheese" - queso campesino which your bf (and you) should be familiar with if he/you has/have been to South America.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Baldilocks, you hit something near and dear to me RIGHT on the head. CHEESE !!!! Here in NYC and the surrounding areas we are lucky enough to have wonderful cheese shops that import cheeses from all over the world, and, as you may have guessed, Spanish cheese is my favorite! Of course these upscale cheesemongerers probably don't have even close to the same quality as they do when you are actually IN Spain, so I have that to look forward to.

Eating seasonally has become, for lack of a better word, trendy here in NY, but you have to really PAY for it at a nice restaurant. I try my best to do things on my own, but as you said, everything is available here all year round-and we pay for it in taste and nutritional value.

I love all the kinds of meat you mentioned, although for health reasons I have been cutting back on meat and trying to get more fish in my diet. My boyfriend is of course extremely familiar with pork loin as it is a staple in latin american cuisine. It just so happens I love it as well.

Your description of the overabundance of fruits and veggies in season is making my mouth water. And to receive that from people's gardens is right out of a dream! I have always said, anecdotally, that if I went to Spain I would never come back between the food and the culture and the wine. Clearly, I am not so naive to think its all rainbows and unicorns but what you are telling me confirms to me that my initial instincts about what I will love about Spain and it's people are true. Sometimes, as they say, you just "know". 

And I find your stories about conversing in spanish with expats very funny. I would expect that I would speak Spanish as much and as often as possible. I suppose people always try to take the easy way out, but I don't find that challenging, nor respectful. Also, I fully intend to make as many local friends as I can, when I say we want to make a home there (with trips back to the US as I am very close with my family and friends here) I mean it, and having a network of friends, Spanish and non Spanish, is really what makes a home in my view.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> Baldilocks, you hit something near and dear to me RIGHT on the head. CHEESE !!!! Here in NYC and the surrounding areas we are lucky enough to have wonderful cheese shops that import cheeses from all over the world, and, as you may have guessed, Spanish cheese is my favorite! Of course these upscale cheesemongerers probably don't have even close to the same quality as they do when you are actually IN Spain, so I have that to look forward to.
> 
> Eating seasonally has become, for lack of a better word, trendy here in NY, but you have to really PAY for it at a nice restaurant. I try my best to do things on my own, but as you said, everything is available here all year round-and we pay for it in taste and nutritional value.
> 
> ...


Much will depend on where you choose to settle. We are in a mountain village (pop. 4980) surrounded by olive trees with a few cherry, almond, peach, quince, kaki, apple, orange, lemon, etc trees mixed in. (See pics in my forum photo albums) My mother-in-law (suegra - hope you don't mind the impromptu Spanish vocab lessons [!]) is a Texan by birth although she lived in Colombia for 52 years, and is a big/capital city girl and now lives with us (Yeah, there's a downside to everything!). We worried about how she was going to cope with being in a village with complete strangers (there are no Americans here and only about 25 expats) miles from the nearest department store, no Walmart or Albertsons, no Penn Dutch or Walgreens, etc. Fortunately she speaks Spanish. She is slowly losing her big city ways - I still haven't managed to get her out of the American habit of overdressing things and accept that the peluquería that she goes to opposite the house is just that - a hairdresser's not what she calls a "Beauty Parlor" (they don't even do manicure!). I've even tried turning it back on her and referring to the barber's that I go to, as a "gentleman's grooming emporium". I think I might have got slightly more on target the last time she called it a Beauty Salon and I said, that she shouldn't waste her time going there because everyone who goes in comes out looking just as ugly a s when they went in!  However, I digress.

According to her she couldn't have landed up in a better place. She has more friends here than she has ever had in her life.

I was born just ½ mile from the sea, SWMBO, my better half had, before we met, had spent much of her life in cities, then I took her to a coastal place for 18 years before we moved here four years ago. She now teaches English (as the only teacher) at the branch of a private academy in the village.

Both the suegra and SWMBO were living 10,000 ft up in the Andes, I had been living 1,000 ft up in the mountains of North Wales. In UK we were living 150 ft amsl up on the top floor of an old Victorian house so when we came here 2200 ft above sea level in the mountains of the Sierra Sur de Jaén, it was almost like coming home and even more so for me since the people here, their attitudes, their thriftinees, their openness, their warmth, their friendliness, their generosity, etc. is so much like the coastal village where I was born 71 years ago.


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## pjc80 (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi Katie,

I recently moved to Spain with my fiance and we bought a house together in Andalucia - or at least we wanted to! - we were told when we went to sign the contracts that actually as we weren't married we could not buy the house in both our names. So the house is in my fiance's name, and apparently when we are married we will have to pay tax on 50% of the property's value again to transfer 50% of it into my name. We were not impressed! Something you may want to look into if you are planning to buy together... It may just be a law that applies in Andalucia though, I'm not sure.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

pjc80 said:


> Hi Katie,
> 
> I recently moved to Spain with my fiance and we bought a house together in Andalucia - or at least we wanted to! - we were told when we went to sign the contracts that actually as we weren't married we could not buy the house in both our names. So the house is in my fiance's name, and apparently when we are married we will have to pay tax on 50% of the property's value again to transfer 50% of it into my name. We were not impressed! Something you may want to look into if you are planning to buy together... It may just be a law that applies in Andalucia though, I'm not sure.


Similar types of thing can happen in UK (and probably elsewhere) so Spain is not unique in this, but for Kate and her fiancé, the situation is different and there are more pressing needs for them to address with regard to being married.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

I do not mind impromptu Spanish lessons for sure! I think I am kind of in the middle of city and country girl. I can't say where we will end up for sure, and of course the two weeks we spend looking around will definitely help. I want to be close to the water, and I want to horseback ride. I would like a city within distance. Perhaps the first year to even live in Valencia or Alicante (Alicante seems a bit smaller which I like-heck I am coming from NYC the ieda is a whole new way of living!), and then buy somewhere outside either of those two. I am not going to say I "MUST" do one thing or another. I can't make that decision until we go. Not to mention, as you know, some things are good for certain times in your life!

Where you live sounds beautiful, with an enviable way of life. The fact that your wife teaches seems like a great set-up. I don't know about my future employment options, and I know their are certain visas for that, but I rather not worry about that for the first year at least. I was also thinking I could teach yoga and swimming lessons privately-not have my own business per se. I think getting there and getting settled and exploring is the first order of business!

In some ways I would prefer smaller amounts of expats. I don't want to run into large groups of people that are basically trying to recreate their home country in a better climate. As an American, there are PLENTY of places I could go that have wonderful warm climates all year round in my own country. No thanks! So after talking to you I think it is something I will definitely take into consideration when looking at places. That being said, I know Javea has many expats, but I am still interested in looking right around that area.

PJC thanks for that info. We would buy a house together but it wouldnt be for a few years, I think we will rent first but its good information to know. I agree with Baldilocks in that I do have more pressing concerns/reasons for getting married before we go. The paperwork alone is a reason, and the visas, and of course the income issue. Everything he mentioned is really helpful in knowing what to do in this situation!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> I do not mind impromptu Spanish lessons for sure! I think I am kind of in the middle of city and country girl. I can't say where we will end up for sure, and of course the two weeks we spend looking around will definitely help. I want to be close to the water, and I want to horseback ride. I would like a city within distance. Perhaps the first year to even live in Valencia or Alicante (Alicante seems a bit smaller which I like-heck I am coming from NYC the ieda is a whole new way of living!), and then buy somewhere outside either of those two. I am not going to say I "MUST" do one thing or another. I can't make that decision until we go. Not to mention, as you know, some things are good for certain times in your life!
> 
> Where you live sounds beautiful, with an enviable way of life. The fact that your wife teaches seems like a great set-up. I don't know about my future employment options, and I know their are certain visas for that, but I rather not worry about that for the first year at least. *I was also thinking I could teach yoga and swimming lessons privately-not have my own business per se*. I think getting there and getting settled and exploring is the first order of business!
> 
> ...


that IS having a business - which will be fine if you can get Irish nationality - then you can set up as autónomo (self-employed)

but if you come here on any visa other than a specific 'employment' visa - usually sponsored by an employer - or there IS a 'self-employment/investment visa' which I believe has a very high financial requirement, you can't work at all

have a look at what this US citizen has been told by a lawyer http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...y-get-residency-spain-need-help-big-time.html


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

So these laws are so strict that even the children of Expats dont babysit bc they dont have their own business visa? More and more im starting to think I will have to push my dad into becoming an Irish citizen just to make things easier in almost every way lol. The goal, as my boyfriend says, is that neither ofbus HAVE to work again and that I can only if I want to. I think for at least the first year I wouldnt. How do you go about getting a priper visa once you have residency to work? Do you reapply through perhaps a company that wants to sponsor you?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> So these laws are so strict that even the children of Expats dont babysit bc they dont have their own business visa? More and more im starting to think I will have to push my dad into becoming an Irish citizen just to make things easier in almost every way lol. The goal, as my boyfriend says, is that neither ofbus HAVE to work again and that I can only if I want to. I think for at least the first year I wouldnt. How do you go about getting a priper visa once you have residency to work? Do you reapply through perhaps a company that wants to sponsor you?


any non-EU citizen who is here on a non-working resident visa simply can't work - yes, it IS that strict

& for a company to sponsor you they would have to prove that there was no EU citizen able to do the job - on that thread I linked you to the poster said this 



> .i'm from the usa and finding it very hard to get around the red tape
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's actually illegal for ANYONE under 16 to work (even Spanish nationals) so the 'kids babysitting' scenario doesn't really happen, either

afaik, if you want to change visa status you can only do that from the US - the only place you'll get a definitive answer would be from the Spanish consulate where you live

yes, it really would be a lot easier for you if you could get Irish citizenship

even those of us legally allowed to work would think twice about 'cash in hand' work, where in the past a lot might have 'chanced it' - you're highly likely to be reported by 'friends or neighbours'


if it makes you feel any better - if an EU citizen wants to go to live & work in the US it's at least as difficult for us - the rules are pretty much the same in both directions


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> So these laws are so strict that even the children of Expats dont babysit bc they dont have their own business visa? More and more im starting to think I will have to push my dad into becoming an Irish citizen just to make things easier in almost every way lol. The goal, as my boyfriend says, is that neither ofbus HAVE to work again and that I can only if I want to. I think for at least the first year I wouldnt. How do you go about getting a priper visa once you have residency to work? Do you reapply through perhaps a company that wants to sponsor you?


I'm coming in on the end of this, I've not read all of the posts properly. I would like to add that even if you were allowed to work - if you wish to work as self employed you'd need to become an autonomo which would cost you 260€ a month regardless of if you earnt anything - and remember money is tight in Spain, its in crisis. You would be better off not bothering with work at all or trying to get a work visa. Too many unemployed people desperate for work in Spain already - the benefit system in Spain is limited to two years and things arent good. 

This programme was on recently, its worth a look 




Jo xxx


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

I work in finance so I am well acquainted with the Spanish economy right now. I am also well acquainted with the fact that while the official unemployment rate is over 20%, it is in reality lower since many Spanish continue to claim unemployment benefits while working for cash under the table. The entire economy has become cash based, with many working people not paying taxes at all, and 15 million taxpayers support the remaining 31 million people or so. Because of this I would never go to Spain and expect (nor want!) any sort of government help-which is why we are making sure 100% that his pension won't be taxed and that we will be able to live comfortably there.

I also understand that this is why they don't want non-EU citizens working. At the same time, eventually, I think I am going to want to do SOMETHING, hence why I mentioned about teaching private yoga/swimming. I guess I figured that since millions of spanish take cash in hand jobs right now, they probably wouldn't be running to tell anyone (the fact that anyone tells on anybody is bizarre to me since in America where arguably more people are far more honest when it comes to taxes-people take cash for light work all the time) on me for making a few extra hundred Euros here and there.

Here in America you cannot work before you are 16 either, but everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, if you are a girl, babysits at some point well before they are 16. Of course, I know Spain is not America-but my general impression is that they are far more relaxed about these types of things then America would ever be. After all, being relaxed about these things is one of the reasons they have such a problem to begin with LOL! Perhaps now they are cracking down, and honestly, rightfully so.

I don't expect to even think about working for awhile, and was kind of just throwing ideas around. I am glad I have you guys to ask these questions to otherwise I would have no idea! My view is, if and when the time comes, I will deal with the working issue, but at least I know what the rules are. On top of everything else, I also know the option of becoming an Irish citizen and how that will help if working is what I want to do.

My last intention is to move to spain to mooch of the country. God knows I despise it in America (and yes-while there are similar laws regarding working here-NO ONE follows them. In my parents summer beach community, Irish kids come and work in the bars for cash all summer on just a tourist visa) so it would not be my goal in a country much worse off then America. And yes, while America is better off, the cost of living stinks, and the quality of life isn't anywhere near what spain's is (if of course you don't have employment to worry about).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> I work in finance so I am well acquainted with the Spanish economy right now. I am also well acquainted with the fact that while the official unemployment rate is over 20%, it is in reality lower since many Spanish continue to claim unemployment benefits while working for cash under the table.


what unemployment benefit? unemployment benefit runs out very quickly - after that, there's something like 400€ a month - that's it - no food stamps, no housing benefit, no help with bills - nothing



Katiebelle2882 said:


> The entire economy has become cash based, with many working people not paying taxes at all, and 15 million taxpayers support the remaining 31 million people or so. Because of this I would never go to Spain and expect (nor want!) any sort of government help-which is why we are making sure 100% that his pension won't be taxed and that we will be able to live comfortably there.
> 
> I also understand that this is why they don't want non-EU citizens working. At the same time, eventually, I think I am going to want to do SOMETHING, hence why I mentioned about teaching private yoga/swimming. I guess I figured that since millions of spanish take cash in hand jobs right now, they probably wouldn't be running to tell anyone (the fact that anyone tells on anybody is bizarre to me since in America where arguably more people are far more honest when it comes to taxes-people take cash for light work all the time) on me for making a few extra hundred Euros here and there.


yes, people DO work on the black - but yes, people ARE reporting on others (especially on foreigners)- a 'few hundred euros here & there' is more than they have to live on every month

I work very hard to support myself & my 2 daughters - I pay over 270 € a month just in autónomo payments - tax is on top of that

if someone was trying to poach my business & not working legally - would I report them - YES - as would all the other legal self-employed & small business owners I know - Spanish & expats


Katiebelle2882 said:


> Here in America you cannot work before you are 16 either, but everyone, and I mean* EVERYONE, if you are a girl, babysits* at some point well before they are 16. Of course, I know Spain is not America-but my general impression is that they are far more relaxed about these types of things then America would ever be. After all, being relaxed about these things is one of the reasons they have such a problem to begin with LOL! Perhaps now they are cracking down, and honestly, rightfully so.


 babysitting isn't really part of Spanish culture though, to be honest - parents don't go out without the children so much, it's more usual for entire families to go out together - several generations together, and the majority of expats who move here soon embrace the idea, too

& there aren't any other jobs, such as paper rounds, either

my daughter was desperate to earn money for herself before she was 16 - there was absolutely nothing she could do


Katiebelle2882 said:


> I don't expect to even think about working for awhile, and was kind of just throwing ideas around. I am glad I have you guys to ask these questions to otherwise I would have no idea! My view is, if and when the time comes, I will deal with the working issue, but at least I know what the rules are. On top of everything else, I also know the option of becoming an Irish citizen and how that will help if working is what I want to do.
> 
> My last intention is to move to spain to mooch of the country. God knows I despise it in America (and yes-while there are similar laws regarding working here-NO ONE follows them. In my parents summer beach community, Irish kids come and work in the bars for cash all summer on just a tourist visa) so it would not be my goal in a country much worse off then America. And yes, while America is better off, the cost of living stinks, and the quality of life isn't anywhere near what spain's is (if of course you don't have employment to worry about).


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## Bfpijuan (Apr 6, 2011)

Interesting that you know the 27% unemployment is bogus! Considering that in some area and especially for those under 30, it is over 50%. Just as an example in our family of six siblings only two have jobs. Two have been unemployed for four years and the other two get by with temporary jobs (no contract, but not under the table).


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> I also understand that this is why they don't want non-EU citizens working. At the same time, eventually, I think I am going to want to do SOMETHING, hence why I mentioned about teaching private yoga/swimming. I guess I figured that since millions of spanish take cash in hand jobs right now, they probably wouldn't be running to tell anyone (the fact that anyone tells on anybody is bizarre to me since in America where arguably more people are far more honest when it comes to taxes-people take cash for light work all the time) on me for making a few extra hundred Euros here and there.


 That attitude is wrong and misinformed. You really think that everyone who is out of work is fine because they take cash in hand jobs????? Sorry, but even if that were the case, I doubt any would have the spare cash to do yoga or learn to swim - they have household bills to pay!! Even if there was anyone, you'd have to declare yourself, even to rent space in a sports hall or pool - they'd want to see your papers, your NIE, autonomo, permission, qualifications and they'd want to issue you with a receipt for your payment to rent their facilities! Unless you're planning to invite your customers to your home - if rented you'll need to declare your work intentions to your landlord, if anyone does come, you need to make sure that you are insured in case of accident or injury - and yes, if they felt you, as a foreigner were making money from them, they would tell on you in a heart beat!!

Spain isnt an easy place to live, they're in crisis and regardless of folks opinions on how to get out of it - they are tightening up on foreigners entering their country and working cash in hand - the Spanish may get away with it, altho for how much longer who knows, but a foreigner??????

Maybe charity work would be an idea???


Jo xxx


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Because there are no other benefits I am assuming that people take the unemployment for however long it lasts in addition to working under the table because there IS no other help. I don't blame them one bit! 

To be sure unemployment is awful there, and I know for a fact its especially awful for people under 30.

I am just going by what I have read in economic research in terms of the unemployment number being lower. Not drastically lower mind you-either way as far as I am concerned anything over 9% is bad, and in Spain its no doubt almost triple that.

In any case, it is actually a good thing that people are reporting those who work under the table, since honest people are struggling. 

I didn't really think of how babysitting wouldn't be a part of Spanish culture Xabia-but it makes sense.

Like I said, I was throwing ideas out there, (albeit American ideas!!!!) and knowing what the reality is is just one more step to understanding where I am going and what to expect. Also like I mentioned, the last thing I want to do is step on peoples toes-hence why I will learn Spanish and integrate with locals-whether they bee Spaniard or other expatriats.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

No no, I do not think that everyone who does not work is fine! Absolutely not! I just know it happens. But it happens everywhere, and clearly- even cash in hand for menial jobs is not enough for almost any family.

As for charity work-since I personally wont HAVE to work-yes, I will be looking up volunteer opportunities at womens or animal shelters. I actually already thought of that. If I am going to be living there, I would want to make a positive impact-not just go about life as if I am on a permanent holiday.

As for private lessons- I figured the Spanish wouldn't be paying me- but perhaps other EU members who summer in many of these areas. And like I said-was just throwing that idea out, but this is why this board has been so helpful-I don't know until I am told!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katie, while I appreciate that you are trying to weigh up all the possibilities and get your dream to come and live in Spain underway, I think you have to stop and take stock of the reality of the situation and consider that you may well need a whole new mindset on this.


Nothing is ever as simple as any of us would like and, to undertake a major move such as you are planning requires a lot of research. For my part, planning our move for retirement took six years, then we had the added complication, part way through, of becoming responsible for my mother-in-law when my f-i-l died. Executing the plan took another two years. SWMBO and I are EU citizens (m-i-l is US citizen) and I have sufficient pensions to keep all three of us and with SWMBO and m-i-l classed as my dependants, we all get healthcare coverage paid for by the UK.
Your possibilty of obtaining Irish citizenship - while it would give YOU the right of entry as a EU citizen, it would not resolve everything. Your fiancé or husband would be classed as *your* dependant, but *you, personally* have no income to support the two of you. I know that he has the income but you will not be classed as his dependant.
Your potential for obtaining employment is very limited. What transferable skills do you have that a Spaniard might not have? If you have qualifications, would they be recognised in Spain? What would you have to do to get them recognised in Spain? Assuming that such a job exists, and a suitably qualified Spaniard is available to take it, why should you get it rather than the Spaniard?
Somewhere along the line, I have the impression that you have the idea that the current crisis in Spain and indeed much of Europe is home-grown. The "crisis" is a major consequence arising from the twofold problem in the US (a) the failure of the Fed to exert any form of control on the banks until after it was too late, and (b) the US banks with their negative equity mortgages which collapsed around their ears when it became obvious that all overinflated values of the property market were just paper values and not suststainable in reality (we personally lost several hundred thousand US$). Compound this with the building boom in Europe (and Spain in particular) using EU funds and again inappropriate funding by the banks, overlaid with the activities of corrupt officials, many of whom were hoodwinked by property developers who promptly ran off with their share of the profits (plus, often, the officials' share) leaving the said officials plus the authorities to pick up the bill and sort out the mess, with the result that the public purse is empty, even overdrawn.
Unlike the US and, indeed the UK, the members of the Eurozone do not own their currency. The US and UK *do* own their currencies and can print more [worthless?] paper (Quantitative Easing!) as they wish - this will add up to US$4 trillion by 2014 and the UK GBP375bn both of which rather dwarf Spain's indebtedness of less than €100 bn. Eurozone members can't print more money so can't use that method to overcome their financial difficulties which make them sound much worse than they really are. All they can do is minimise public expenditure on things like schools, healthcare, social security payments, etc Hope that puts it all into a clearer light.

Sorry, if I sound as if I'm trying to put you off your dream but dreams are fine, it is reality which happens. Somebody recently said that *we* are actually living the 'elusive dream' and I think that person was correct, BUT it wasn't sat there waiting for us to turn up and claim it, WE had to make it happen. For your dream to come true - *YOU* have to make it happen.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> I will be looking up volunteer opportunities at womens or *animal shelters*


Mary on the forum - Mrypg9 will be very pleased to hear from you!


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Katie, you have enough income to live a nice life in Spain, personally I'd look at the Canary Islands where the weather is super all year round but it matters not, you have the income to enjoy life either on mainland Spain and islands or off the coast of Africa. Look on your skills in yoga et al as a way into voluntary work maybe, then who knows what can happen down the line. 

Rent then go explore, live in Spain and go on vacation in Spain lol; pop over into France and Italy, take advantage of the very cheap European flights and go off to Germany, the UK, remember your in Europe now and thankfully we do get cheap flights.

Just for fun take a look at 

Cheap Flights - Book cheap flights to Europe with Ryanair

Cheap flights ? Book cheap flights to Europe - easyJet.com

Have a search, play with dates, it will give you an idea. These are 'no frills' airlines but remember you'll only be onboard a couple of hours. I just had a quick look, January flights, Alicante to London return, US dollars $150, Madrid to Paris return flights $140. You will have so much to see when you get to Spain your head will spin, enjoy yourself


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> .....................
> 
> Your possibilty of obtaining Irish citizenship - while it would give YOU the right of entry as a EU citizen, it would not resolve everything. Your fiancé or husband would be classed as *your* dependant, but *you, personally* have no income to support the two of you. I know that he has the income but you will not be classed as his dependant.
> ....................


oh dear........ I'd forgotten about that..............


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

I definitely realize nothing is every that simple, and as I am doing research and speaking with all of you, of course I realize it even more. That being said, this is why I have started NOW as opposed to next November. We would not be making this move until March or so of 2014! We already have appts with lawyers and accountants (including his PBA-police union lawyer) in an effort to understand what changes when you move overseas and what we can expect financially.

I will not need to work over there, so employment isn't really an issue-it was more me thinking about things I could do in the future, if I felt so inclined. I intend to cross that bridge when I come to it, as it is not a necessity. Clearly, the current economic situation isn't ideal for anybody, much less a foreign national.

I did not know that about him being my dependent-that wouldn't really work! That being said, at least me working for myself would be more of an option as an EU member. All of that, I would assume, would be questions for the lawyers!

The current economic world crisis is really, so complicated and has so many factors that I would never think its homegrown (in Europe that is) I think its a confluence, a "perfect storm" if you will, of many different things, that was all set into motion by the US housing issues. Its complicated nature is the reason, I think, that it has gone on for such a long time.

You are right the EU countries cannot print their own money, although, I am not sure the ability to print money is a good thing, as it will just lead to inflation here. Currently, we have a major spending problem here in the US, and it seems to me people (read:the powers that be in all industries-banking, politics, etc) think that the good times will last forever and you don't have to plan or worry about the future. What a mess it's gotten us into!

This all being said, I am glad I now know that I shouldn't go over there and expect a job or what have you. As I said-I am not going to need one (IF his pension doesn't get taxed-if it does, I don't think this dream will be a reality since it wouldnt be financially viable nor responsible for us) but I know that even small per diem work isn't available to me- and thats just fine. 

More then anything we are getting all our ducks in a row so there are no surprises, nothing that is completely unforeseen. Obviously, there are always curveballs, but I want to at the very least do as much as we can to be ready for them.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> This all being said, I am glad I now know that I shouldn't go over there and expect a job or what have you. As I said-I am not going to need one (IF his pension doesn't get taxed-if it does, I don't think this dream will be a reality since it wouldnt be financially viable nor responsible for us) but I know that even small per diem work isn't available to me- and thats just fine.


From what I recall, you said that his pension amounted to US$60k which I presume is per annum and not per month. US$60,000 = approx €45,000 and unless you are planning to blow most of it in the casinos, etc. is more than adequate. We, three adults, two small dogs and a canary (what he eats is not chicken-feed ) can live comfortably on €600 per month (€7,000 p.a.) including utilites but we do have to cut our coat according to our purse so no caviar, t-bone steaks, champagne, etc. Don't give up hope, keep researching. Look at other countries as possibilities, indeed, why not Eire as a start since you have a possible link and once you are established there, then think about moving to Spain or Italy, Portugal, France - none of which are in quite the depth of _caca_ (you can look that one up in the dictionary, if you don't know what it means) as Spain.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Bob Bob,

that is a great idea about volunteering with yoga. In fact, I would LOVE th

We do want to be in mainland Europe for the time being for exactly the reasons you mention-travel! I actually lived in Ireland for 6 months in college for my "term abroad" in Galway and was able to travel a lot then as well. Ryanir was my BEST friend. When I tell Americans here the prices I paid, people think I am lying. This was in 2002-so things have gone up a bit, but I remember flying to scotland for $9 (and at the time the euro=$) each way. I flew to Frankfurt where I went to the Stuttgart Oktoberfest and then Munich the next day for $24 each way! I certainly intend on taking advantage of that.

Actually here is a question-how is traveling by train in Spain?

I havent been back to Europe in about 7 years, I went to Amsterdam for a week then. What I love most-aside from Europeans in general-is that you can drive a few hours and be in a completely different country with a completely different culture. I remember seeing it was about 7 hours from Valencia to Geneva by car. In 7 hours from where I live, I can't even get to Canada, or I can be in Maryland if I go south. Sometimes I am not sure Americans realize how HUGE the US is and how crappy that can be. Its not wonder so many don't travel. Airfares are ridiculous and driving barely gets you to a different state!

Do you realize that I flew to Florida from NY for a wedding in November, and I paid $500 round trip!!!

Our first international spots outside of Spain I think will be France and Italy.

Just a quick question, I am wondering about the city of Alicante. As I told Xabia I am looking at Javea as well, but if for the first year we want to be in a larger city, is Alicante nice?


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

I looked at Eire, it is actually considerably more expensive in a small city (because I don't really want to be in the country in Ireland!). To be sure, if we needed to work Ireland would be the better bet since my family owns businesses. Other places are still a possibilty, but since we don't HAVE to worry about working and the economy- Spain seemed like the best place. Also, it is a bit closer to NY then Italy, and he already has a pretty good grasp on the language.

The pension yes will be $60,000 annually. I wish it was monthly LOL! He also MAY apply for disability here in the US, which could make it $70,000, but we have no interest in counting or assuming we will do that.

We do not have expensive tastes-so no caviar for us. Or t Bone steaks, at least not regularly!  We want to save to buy, and the rest will be on essentials, a car, and traveling. I figure for the first year, we will be busy exploring Spain for the most part!

Portugal is an interesting option, I honestly did not think of that country.

As it turns out, one way tickets non stop are around $2000 to alicante or valencia. with stops it can be about $1000. So, I looked at other options and it turns out, a 12-16 day transatlantic cruise on Royal Carribbean or Holland America with stops in the Azores and coastal Spanish cities (before ending in Barcelona or Cartegena) is about $500-$700 USD! I could hardly believe finding THAT out yesterday!


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## pablosho (Jul 11, 2007)

Hi Katie,

I have quickly rushed through most of the thread so I hope I am not repeating something anyone has already said but it doesn't seem that way!
Do you have any savings? Becuase if you can top that $60,000 to $75,000 this might just be your perfect way into legally getting into Spain.
I had some American clients relocating here who came in on a non-lucrative visa. It takes time and money but it seems you have both.
Before I go into the details, you might just want to look up the 'Costa de la Luz' and particually Cadiz. I'm sure you would love it here.
Check with your embassy first becuase laws change very quickly in Spain.

Residence Visa for Non-lucrative Purposes

This visa program allows foreigners of means to reside in Spain, without engaging in any type of lucrative activity there. To apply for this visa, you will need to submit the following, in person, and by appointment:

• A passport valid for a minimum of six months, plus three photocopies of the personal information and photo page

• A money order for $100 to cover processing fees

• Four recent passport-size photographs

• Certificate of good conduct issued by the police department of the places where you have lived for at least six months during the past five years

• Original medical certificate printed on a doctor’s letterhead, verifying that you are free from yellow fever, cholera, and the plague, and free from drug addictions, and mental illness, along with a Spanish translation

• Proof of sufficient financial resources (bank accounts, investments, annuities, and any other source of income) totaling a minimum of $75,000 annually

• Proof of medical insurance coverage in Spain

• If you own property in Spain, you must submit the original deed, plus a photocopy. If not, you must submit proof of sufficient financial resources to buy a house in Spain.

It will take approximately five months to process this application.

BR
Paul


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Pablo-thank you for this! I am going to print it out. I actually contacted the Spanish Consulate today here in NYC and they just refer you back via automated voice to their website so I have started compiling some of these things you have listed. I had wanted to actually GO to the embassy before we applied for a visa to speak with them about some things, but it appears the only time you can make an appt is online and to hand in all the visa information that you have listed. I am assuming we can ask the lawyers the same questions and get the answers we need.

We will have around $15-$20,000 in savings when we head over, however, I believe since what he will be getting is a disability PENSION, my understanding that it is a minimum of $10,000 (plus $760 per dependent) since it is not an income, but a guaranteed pension, and disability at that. I believe that would be because as far as I can tell, most pensioners don't have a $75,000 coming in as a pension!

The most helpful thing to know is the time frame- 5 months-I had not been able to find a number as of yet! Everything else should be easy, since my bf IS actually NYPD so a record (or lack thereof for both of us lol) should be ok.

Do you need to prove that you intend to buy property in Spain eventually? That seems weird, although I supposed we can make that argument since we will have saving.

As for Cadiz, we will be doing a two week trip in 2013. I would assume Sept since no one is around in August-would you agree September is a good month? I would love to see the places all along the south coast, Cadiz included, as well as Malaga and Marbella. I have a very open mind about where to live, and the final decision will definitely be made after (or during) this trip! 

Thanks for all your help that is a wonderful, succint list!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Katiebelle2882 said:


> Pablo-thank you for this! I am going to print it out. I actually contacted the Spanish Consulate today here in NYC and they just refer you back via automated voice to their website so I have started compiling some of these things you have listed. I had wanted to actually GO to the embassy before we applied for a visa to speak with them about some things, but it appears the only time you can make an appt is online and to hand in all the visa information that you have listed. I am assuming we can ask the lawyers the same questions and get the answers we need.
> 
> We will have around $15-$20,000 in savings when we head over, however, I believe since what he will be getting is a disability PENSION, my understanding that it is a minimum of $10,000 (plus $760 per dependent) since it is not an income, but a guaranteed pension, and disability at that. I believe that would be because as far as I can tell, most pensioners don't have a $75,000 coming in as a pension!
> 
> ...



I don't know how old you are - but financial requirements for a retirement visa are considerably lower - there's a thread on here somewhere by someone who got one - I'm pretty sure it's on the FAQs thread

alarm bells might ring if you're a lot younger than usual retirement age - but since you can prove that your income is a pension, that might well swing it


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> I don't know how old you are - but financial requirements for a retirement visa are considerably lower - there's a thread on here somewhere by someone who got one - I'm pretty sure it's on the FAQs thread
> 
> alarm bells might ring if you're a lot younger than usual retirement age - but since you can prove that your income is a pension, that might well swing it


I'm only 30 and he is 41, (we will be 32 and 42 if this happens in the timeline I am hoping it will) but the definition of what he is getting is a diability pension and its far over the $10,000 retirement pension amount. I am COMPLETELY guessing here, but I would think their concern with an "income" vs "pension" is that incomes/investments are subject to the markets far more than a pension, especially since it is a US law enforcement pension. He will be receiving that money no matter what, and he will never lose it. Since it is by all respects a pension, I am going to assume they can't be "well its a pension and by definition you only need $10,000, but you are too young, so we are going to say you need an income just because"... of course I am sure stranger things have happened lol!!!!

We won't know until the time comes, and whatever happens, happens as they say. And like you said, it's worth a shot, and even if it doesn't happen, I'll regret not trying far more then trying!


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## pablosho (Jul 11, 2007)

Katie,
September is the perfect month to come. When you say there is no one around in August, I presume you mean most public services and offices shut down? Correct but on the coast holiday makers make it very difficult and or expensive to find somewhere to stay. It will be a much more enjoyable experience to travel around in September.
No one can make you buy a property, there are 1.5 million empty in Spain though  I think if you tick all the other boxes, they won't hold you back on that one.
It would be a good idea to seek the latest information on how long your visas last and what one makes sense for you and your BF without having to go back to the USA and starting over with a new application.
I think you have a lot of work ahead of you, trawling for accurate information isn't easy on the internet and spanish bureaucracy can be infuriating. The crisis here means many changes in laws that can happen so fast that other countries can't keep up.
I found this, may help you? http://www.maec.es/subwebs/Consulad...resVisados/Visados/Documents/NonLucrative.pdf 
The marriage could also come into your calculations.
Good luck with everything and keep us posted with your progress.


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## Katiebelle2882 (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks Pablo! I will definitely be staying on this board, everyone has been unbelievably helpful and accomodating with any questions I have.

I believe the visa (if we don't apply for the retirement one ) would be a residence visa which allows you to stay for up to 5 years, and then you have to do something else. After 10 I think you can become a citizen.

We definitely have a lot of work ahead of us, and while it seems like a lot of time, I know it will fly by, plus when you factor 5 months to get approved for a visa into it, that takes away even more time!


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

If you intend getting married my advice would be to do it before you move, my daughter married a Spanish national and the paperwork was horrendous compared to what you have to do in the Uk, both fathers had to go to see the judge to start with and sign things. That was 4 years ago things may have changed but check it out. Ther's no social stigma to being unmarried but some of the paperwork is easier if you are legally married. Good luck!


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## Bfpijuan (Apr 6, 2011)

pjc80 said:


> Hi Katie,
> 
> I recently moved to Spain with my fiance and we bought a house together in Andalucia - or at least we wanted to! - we were told when we went to sign the contracts that actually as we weren't married we could not buy the house in both our names. So the house is in my fiance's name, and apparently when we are married we will have to pay tax on 50% of the property's value again to transfer 50% of it into my name. We were not impressed! Something you may want to look into if you are planning to buy together... It may just be a law that applies in Andalucia though, I'm not sure.


Just wandering why you could not buy the house together?


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

I'm not surprised by that. Socially living together is ok but the legal system here still seems to be in the dark ages and you never know what administrative problems you'll run up against. Tax needs to be thought of as well, married couples can opt to be taxed together which may or may not be beneficial depends on circumstances. Get married before you arrive and save the hassle!


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## Bfpijuan (Apr 6, 2011)

JaneyO said:


> I'm not surprised by that. Socially living together is ok but the legal system here still seems to be in the dark ages and you never know what administrative problems you'll run up against. Tax needs to be thought of as well, married couples can opt to be taxed together which may or may not be beneficial depends on circumstances. Get married before you arrive and save the hassle!


I know lots of people who are not married and have bought property together. My father-in-law even bought property many, many years ago with two other people. That is why I was wandering why the problem.


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