# Toll roads in portugal



## siobhanwf

With the date of implementaion of the tolls (Scut) on the A22 in the Algarve looming the Portugal News have an article on the Death toll on the alternative road EN125.

_Driving from Lagos to Vila Real do Santo António and back will cost motorists using the Algarve’s only motorway a total estimated value of €21.30 come 15 April._

_One of the main features of tolls on this previously unpaid motorway will be the principle of ‘positive discrimination’, which will allow for the exemption of local residents and companies.

According to the Minister of Transport and Public Works, António Mendonça, this principle will remain in force until June 30, 2012, after which the exemption will disappear on some motorways.

Motorists in the Algarve, who live in councils which are located at least within 20 kilometres of the A22 will be given ten credits to use the motorway for free.

Once these credits have been exhausted, a discount of 15% will apply.

But for visitors from elsewhere in the country, no exemption will apply, with the tens of thousands of visitors that flood the Algarve every summer now having to pay to use the A22 or travel on the dreaded EN125 instead._

Death toll?


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## searover

It appears there will be no toll booths on the A22, so your number plate will be photographed on entry to Portugal on the A22. Big brother has arrive in Portugal!!!!
I came here for the friendly people and the freedom.


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## siobhanwf

According to The Portugal News:

T_he Algarve’s eight-year long battle against tolls on the A22 motorway is on the verge of ending in defeat. At a meeting of the Council of Ministers on Thursday, the cash-strapped government revealed that tolls would be charged within the next fortnight on the A22, along with the A23, A24 and A25, which are located in northern and central Portugal. However, no dates for their introduction were published_ 

Gov’t takes its toll


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## canoeman

Nothing to do with Big Brother, it's cheaper to have electronic tolls than traditional ticket machines and pay booths, people on the East coast and North have being paying these tolls since last October, so nothing new wonder whether they'll get an extension to the free credits or discounted journies to compensate for paying whilst others haven't.


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## siobhanwf

We live just off the A15 and although we coould go through the back curvy roads to either Santarem or Caldas da Rainha we generally use the toll roads...less wear and tear on the car, better MPG and less stress for the human!! the 70c or 1,10 I pay to get to Caldas is probably saved in fuel, wear and tear on tyres, clutch and breaks


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## canoeman

A15 traditional toll road though, not electronic so easy for everyone to use and pay


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## siobhanwf

Yep but we do it the electronic way and have had a via verde gadget since we arrive 5 years ago. Hate that fumbling for coins.


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## canoeman

New electronic SCUT toll roads are different, if you don't have a ViaVerde type device, you have to pay at Post Offices or Payshops and *Non* Portuguese registered cars are not supposed to use them *without one* of the ViaVerde type devices


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> Nothing to do with Big Brother, it's cheaper to have electronic tolls than traditional ticket machines and pay booths, people on the East coast and North have being paying these tolls since last October, so nothing new wonder whether they'll get an extension to the free credits or discounted journies to compensate for paying whilst others haven't.


Don't understand the logic of the last bit. Why should those drivers who have been paying tolls on the roads where they were introduced first be compensated because tolls were not introduced on other roads until later?


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## canoeman

Maybe because they will have been paying tolls since Oct 2010, with their free and discounted trips finishing shortly, neither do I understand your logic that other SCUT users should have benifited from get travel, because tolls are being introduced piecemeal.


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## searover

Although I try. My Portuguese is rubbish, something I am not proud of ! The same as many of my friends here. And as the tolls on the A22 are supposed to be implemented very soon, would it be unreasonable to expect the authorities to publish in English a concise description of exactly when and what visitors have to do to use the motorway. I know many who will stay away fearing fines arriving in the UK long after their holiday.


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## canoeman

It wouldn't be unreasonable but I've never seen one, maybe you should contact the Algarve Tourist Board and suggest it.
The main Portuguese site Visit Portugal - Electronic tolls does cover it but only if you know what your looking for and it's not that well explained. It mainly coves Portuguese Registered cars or Non Portuguese Registered cars. The only reference for holiday hirers is
_Car hire
When hiring a car, please ask the hire company how payment is to be made regarding electronic tolls, as the car hiring company may charge their customers for their use of tolls, as foreseen by Law._
The problem is Hire companies have *not yet* made *any arrangements* for SCUT toll payments, and Porto where these tolls have been in operation for 12 months are still not telling customers about them.

For our friends and family it's not a problem as we tell them about tolls, they pay at CTT whilst their here and we pay their final tolls when they've left.

There are two options of payment for Portuguese Registered cars 
1. An electronic box that is either pre paid or paid by Direct Debit. For a holiday maker the pre paid option is* expensive*
2. Cars without an electronic box, pay tolls at CTT (Post Office) or PayShop, the toll + a fee as below, note there is a 48hour delay before toll can be paid (which is the problem for hirers returning home). All that is required is the car registration number.

Day of travel	1º Day to Pay	Last Day to Pay*
Monday Wednesday	Tuesday
Tuesday Thursday Wednesday
Wednesday Friday Thursday
Thursday Monday Friday
Friday Monday Friday
Saturday Monday Friday
Sunday Tuesday Monday

You need to read days of week under Day of travel	1º Day to Pay	Last Day to Pay copies ok but doesn't submit correctly

Non payment results in fines, as hire cars are Portuguese registered the fines will go to hire companies, who no doubt under the Terms & Conditions will charge to the customers Credit Card.


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## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> Non payment results in fines, as hire cars are Portuguese registered the fines will go to hire companies, who no doubt under the Terms & Conditions will charge to the customers Credit Card.


Plus a whacking great admiin fee I should imagine


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> For our friends and family it's not a problem as we tell them about tolls, they pay at CTT whilst their here and we pay their final tolls when they've left.


But if you don't have any friends or relatives who can pay the return-to-airport toll on your behalf when it pops up on the computer two days after you have returned home, then you simply can't pay the toll by this means and you will cop a fine and admin charge. Brilliant system.


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## canoeman

lagosguy said:


> But if you don't have any friends or relatives who can pay the return-to-airport toll on your behalf when it pops up on the computer two days after you have returned home, then you simply can't pay the toll by this means and you will cop a fine and admin charge. Brilliant system.


Unfortunatley I can't find any rolling eyes, which is your normal reply!


Theres nothing wrong with the payment system, yes an online option would possibly help, but it's the Car Hire companies that are creating the problem for their customers by not having a sensible payment option in place.


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> Unfortunatley I can't find any rolling eyes, which is your normal reply!
> 
> 
> Theres nothing wrong with the payment system, yes an online option would possibly help, but it's the Car Hire companies that are creating the problem for their customers by not having a sensible payment option in place.


 

How can you possibly say that there is nothing wrong with the payment system, when you have just acknowledged that there is no way for somebody using a car without an electronic box fitted to pay the return-to-airport toll before leaving the country? 

I find your continuing attempts to shift the blame for the upcoming A22 tolls fiasco on to the car hire companies increasingly hard to understand.... unless, of course, that's your job. 

But, pretending for a moment that there is some sense in your arguments, there are only two ways that the hire companies could possibly make this flawed system work. Neither of them is practicable as far as the Faro Airport operations are concerned. 

The first option is that, when returning the car, the hirer will tell the company about the journeys he(she) has made during the hire period and the hire company will calculate the tolls outstanding, take the money from the hirer and pay the tolls at the post office. I don't think I really need to explain why this option is quite ridiculous; but I shall anyway. First, the hirer may lie, claiming not to have incurred any tolls or to have paid them already. In that case the hire company will under-collect and be out of pocket. Second, the administration involved in calculating, collecting and paying over the multitude of tolls will be quite beyond the resources of the vast majority of small hire companies that operate out of the Faro Airport car park.

The second option is for all the car hire companies to fit their hire cars with electronic boxes. There are two problems with this option too. The first is that the hire companies will have to fund the purchase of those boxes out of their own resources. Why should they incur this expense, when the boxes are only required to collect tolls on behalf of the government? If the government were to fund the fitting of the boxes, that would be another matter; but we all know they won't. 

But, there is another practical objection to this option as far as the Faro Airport operations are concerned..... the building work surrounding car park 4, which will last for the next 3 years and which has turned the car park into a death trap. It is now so congested that any delay in getting cars in and out will cause instant gridlock. And having to interrogate the boxes and collect payments, in addition to checking the condition of the car, petrol etc, will turn what used to be a 5 minute task into one that will last 10 minutes or more and will create that gridlock.

Presumably, since you keep going on about what the hire companies should be doing to make the system work, you have some practical solutions to offer. Or is your role simply to throw metaphorical dust in the air and hopefully obscure the government's utter failure to devise a system that is workable in the tourist car hire environment?

Before signing off, I really have to draw attention to the chaos and confusion being caused by your idiot friends' continuing inability to get the toll system started. I did point out in an earlier post that it was lucky that the hire companies didn't take any action in anticipation of the 15 October start date, because then it would been they rather than the government with egg all over their faces. I saw that you chose to misinterpret my post, presumably so that you didn't have to answer the point.


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## canoeman

Sorry but your talking rubbish.
The payment systems for Portuguese cars are easy and straightforward, if the Car Hire companies want to retain a business then they should make some sensible arrangements for their customers, tolls and their payment form an integral part of their business, they have clauses that allow them to charge customers if any fines etc are incurred for infringement of a countries laws, so equally if they want to retain or attract customers then offering a solution to toll payment is no different to supplying sat nav, baby seats etc

From your comments you have absolutely no idea how the electronic boxes operate and record toll, I would suggest you find out, before making silly statements about car park congestion.
Funding cost of boxes even at €25 and I'm sure a fleet discount could be negotiated, is a tiny % of car value, would be written off as capital expenditure and cost could easily be recouped, if Sat Nav hire is anything to go by.

I have offered practical solutions but for someone who has said he wouldn't use A22 with tolls, I really don't know why you bang on about it and as yet I've not seen any sensible solutions from yourself.

You choose to think Hire companies where sensible not to do anything prior to Oct 15, I think the opposite, these tolls affect the whole of Portugal not just the A22, I'll repeat yet again the Hire Companies have had in excess of 12 months now to do something so the A22 fiasco really has zero bearing on their business stupidity.


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## searover

I dont know what planet are you on canoeman ? I believe we are only asking for concise and practical information on on the tolls .
Your tirade explains nothing, and only confuses the issue .
The hire companies may have their problems to resolve with their customers. 
But other users such as UK cars and campers are still waiting for an intelligent and practical way to use these roads economically.


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> Sorry but your talking rubbish.
> The payment systems for Portuguese cars are easy and straightforward,


They obviously aren't, because you haven't disputed the fact that a motorist driving to the airport in a car without an electronic box simply cannot pay the required tolls before leaving the country. A law that you cannot avoid breaking is a bad law.



canoeman said:


> if the Car Hire companies want to retain a business then they should make some sensible arrangements for their customers, tolls and their payment form an integral part of their business, they have clauses that allow them to charge customers if any fines etc are incurred for infringement of a countries laws, so equally if they want to retain or attract customers then offering a solution to toll payment is no different to supplying sat nav, baby seats etc


This is your usual non-specific guff that simply asserts that the hire companies should become government toll collectors. I repeat, the government has introduced a system that doesn't work in the hire car environment. Collecting tolls is no part of the car hire companies' core business. Therefore, they should step back and let the government sort out its own mess. 



canoeman said:


> From your comments you have absolutely no idea how the electronic boxes operate and record toll, I would suggest you find out, before making silly statements about car park congestion.
> Funding cost of boxes even at €25 and I'm sure a fleet discount could be negotiated, is a tiny % of car value, would be written off as capital expenditure and cost could easily be recouped, if Sat Nav hire is anything to go by.


I couldn't care less how the electronic boxes work. It's how the hire companies would collect the tolls from the hirer that counts. I say that the hire company would have to interrogate the box and take the money off the hirer at the time the car is returned. Are you saying that I am wrong and that there is some other way that the hire company can get the money...... other than charging the hirer's card after he(she) has left the country, which for the vast majority of hirers would be quite unacceptable?

I note that you concede that the hire companies would have to pay for the boxes, although you seek to minimize the cost. My question is simply why should the hire companies pay anything to dig the government out of its hole?



canoeman said:


> I have offered practical solutions but for someone who has said he wouldn't use A22 with tolls, I really don't know why you bang on about it and as yet I've not seen any sensible solutions from yourself.


You actually haven't offered any practical solutions other than to say that the hire companies can charge the hirer's credit card. If that's your solution, no wonder the government is floundering about and looking increasingly absurd.

I bang on about it because tourism is vital to the Algarve's future and it is likely to be damaged by the imposition of the tolls. I have an apartment in Lagos and I don't want restaurants and shops closing down because of a lack of trade. I am not alone in fearing that...

Algarve's tourist boss fears mass unemployment in the region. 

I also don't want the value of my apartment to drop, because the western Algarve becomes a no-go zone for visitors. 



canoeman said:


> You choose to think Hire companies where sensible not to do anything prior to Oct 15, I think the opposite, these tolls affect the whole of Portugal not just the A22, I'll repeat yet again the Hire Companies have had in excess of 12 months now to do something so the A22 fiasco really has zero bearing on their business stupidity.


As I have said to you and others, I have no interest in tolls elsewhere. There may be good reasons for them; there may not. Currently, however, the tolls do not apply to the A22 and there is still no start date. The government has so far announced about four start dates that have all slipped. Again I ask, why should the hire companies assume that the government will get its act together this time when all the evidence points to the fact that it won't.

Btw I notice you are getting a bit tetchy. Have you been been taken to task for not fighting the government's corner hard enough?

TTFN


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## canoeman

So you didn't read my answer to your question, the cheapest option for anyone is to have a ViaVerde box, in a nutshell if you drive *a non Portuguese Registered car* then* you should not* use a SCUT electronic toll road unless you have made a pre-payment or have hired or bought one of the box options, as per my link
Visit Portugal - Electronic tolls.
If you find the Tourist site difficult to follow then try the CTT site that is even worse 
CTT - Pagamento Portagens

My tirade as you put it was directed at Lagosguy and I have consistently given factual helpful information and links on the new tolls.
I see that Lagosguy has just posted in reply to my tirade, as we are apparently at opposite ends of the spectrum, I'm not going to bother replying, he holds the Government responsible, I believe the Hire companies have a responsibility to make sensible arrangement and not hide behind the small print of their contracts.


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## lagosguy

Tolls delayed beyond October

Not sure if members will have seen this report from the Algarve Daily News last week. When the government has one member saying the A22 tolls will start before the end of October and another implying that the N125 isn't yet ready to accept the increase in traffic that will result, then it's hardly surprising that everybody else is confused.

Reading between the lines (and with fingers crossed) I see a climbdown coming. If the government can't afford to keep the A22 toll-free, then it can't afford the major works that are required on the N125 before it can introduce the A22 tolls. Probable outcome.... lot's of huffing and puffing about tolls being inevitable but not even a provisional date for implementation. So, by a very circuitous route, we get back to the last government's original preferred option, tolls on all the SCUTs apart from the A22.


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> So you didn't read my answer to your question, the cheapest option for anyone is to have a ViaVerde box, in a nutshell if you drive *a non Portuguese Registered car* then* you should not* use a SCUT electronic toll road unless you have made a pre-payment or have hired or bought one of the box options, as per my link
> Visit Portugal - Electronic tolls.
> If you find the Tourist site difficult to follow then try the CTT site that is even worse
> CTT - Pagamento Portagens
> 
> My tirade as you put it was directed at Lagosguy and I have consistently given factual helpful information and links on the new tolls.
> I see that Lagosguy has just posted in reply to my tirade, as we are apparently at opposite ends of the spectrum, I'm not going to bother replying, he holds the Government responsible, I believe the Hire companies have a responsibility to make sensible arrangement and not hide behind the small print of their contracts.



:cheer2:


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## robc

I may be wrong here and I appreciate that I may be sticking my head in the lions mouth so to speak but don't the Car Hire companies charge IVA. If so they are already unpaid Govt. Tax Collectors...........I am not able to see why if they do that then they cannot initiate a system for collecting Tolls from their customers.

I think I would, were I dependent on the Tourist trade, be far more worried about the ramifications of the current Euro mess than a few Hire Companies getting bent out of shape over a few euros of tolls.

In the (some say ever more likely) collapse of the Euro then this is far more damaging IMHO.

Tolls are a nuisance, no-one wants to pay them, we all want as much as possible for as little as possible, may I suggest those of you unhappy about tolls should come over and try the BNRR. Talk about expensive !!!!!!!!

BTW For those interested I have got my 2 ViaVerde Boxes on order........not bad for a Non Resident 

Rob


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## Vicks

Hear, hear, Lagosguy - I totally agree with you. I was at Faro airport last night and it was chaotic in car park 4 - when I eventually found my way in! The building works have reduced the size of the car park considerably yet the the hire companies have not been given any additional space from which to operate. I was in a long queue just trying to access the car park to return my car. Anyway, why on earth should the hire companies have to take responsibility for collecting government tolls? Lagosguy, I believe you mentioned an impact assessment - doubt they know what that is in Portugal!

Canoeman: Are you a spokesperson for the government?

Vicks


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## canoeman

Yes, of course not, but then as I don't believe in Government intervention in every aspect of our lives, as every business across the world is an unofficial tax collector for their respective Governments, I don't see the problem, it is just another aspect to running a business.

But if your happy for Car Hire Companies to pass on fines and admin costs to their customers then ok, I believe they have a responsibility to offer a solution.


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## lagosguy

Several people have put forward the argument that, because car hire companies already pay IVA and other taxes to ther government, what's the problem with their takling on responsibility for collecting tolls as well? The answer is so blindingly obvious that that it really shouldn't need spelling out. But here goes anyway.

1. IVA and other taxes, which companies pay to the government, are taxes which have been assessed against those companies and which they are legally required to pay.

2. Tolls, on the other hand, are not the legal responsibility of the hire companies: they are the legal responsibility of the drivers who pass under the toll gantries. 

You don't expect a car dealer to be responsible for collecting the annual road licence fee from somebody who buys one of his cars. In the UK, Currys and Comet (the equivalents of Worten and Radio Popular) aren't expected to collect the annual TV licence fee from anybody who buys of their tvs. The idea is just silly. The only reason for expecting the hire companies to collect tolls, is because the government has introduced a flawed system, under which there isn't any way that drivers can pay all the tolls they incur before they leave the country. Therefore there probably isn't any other way of making the toll system work in the hire car environment. 

The problem is that, if the hire companies cave in to pressure to bale the government out, they will incur massive admininstration costs which will have to be passed on to the hirers in the form of increased hire charges, so the poor hirers will pay twice. And that's before we start thinking about how the system could operate under the worsening conditions that many hire companies are having to suffer at Faro Airpport.

The obvious solution is the one which the last government wanted from the outset: don't put tolls on the A22.


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## canoeman

"In the UK, Currys and Comet (the equivalents of Worten and Radio Popular) aren't expected to collect the annual TV licence fee from anybody who buys of their tvs. The idea is just silly".

They might not collect your TV Licence money but they are legally obliged to inform the TVLA of sales or rental of TV or any equipment that can receive a TV signal, no doubt the admin costs are built into margin.


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## robc

"*Several people have put forward the argument that, because car hire companies already pay IVA and other taxes to ther government, what's the problem with their takling on responsibility for collecting tolls as well? The answer is so blindingly obvious that that it really shouldn't need spelling out. But here goes anyway."*

So the fact that these are taxes which are applied to the purchase of goods and services at the point of delivery in no way requires the purchaser of said goods and services to take any responsibility for their payment of them. 

So, following your logic, shops need not collect IVA, VAT, call it what you will then? As the purchaser is under no legal obligation to pay them.

I think that most car hire companies have their vehicles registered in their name so de facto they are the owner of the vehicle which is "benefitting" (if a toll can be considered a benefit), it is not, in the eyes of the law the driver but the owner who is responsible. A very clear distinction.

If your blindingly obvious answer was the other way round then there would be no contractual small print on hire documents relating to motoring offences such as speeding tickets, parking fines etc.

Blindingly obvious really!


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## lagosguy

robc said:


> "*Several people have put forward the argument that, because car hire companies already pay IVA and other taxes to ther government, what's the problem with their takling on responsibility for collecting tolls as well? The answer is so blindingly obvious that that it really shouldn't need spelling out. But here goes anyway."*
> 
> So the fact that these are taxes which are applied to the purchase of goods and services at the point of delivery in no way requires the purchaser of said goods and services to take any responsibility for their payment of them.
> 
> So, following your logic, shops need not collect IVA, VAT, call it what you will then? As the purchaser is under no legal obligation to pay them.
> 
> I think that most car hire companies have their vehicles registered in their name so de facto they are the owner of the vehicle which is "benefitting" (if a toll can be considered a benefit), it is not, in the eyes of the law the driver but the owner who is responsible. A very clear distinction.
> 
> If your blindingly obvious answer was the other way round then there would be no contractual small print on hire documents relating to motoring offences such as speeding tickets, parking fines etc.
> 
> Blindingly obvious really!




I am afraid your reply is so convoluted that I really can't understand what you are trying to say.


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## canoeman

lagosguy said:


> I am afraid your reply is so convoluted that I really can't understand what you are trying to say.



Very clear to most people, or maybe you just don't want to understand.

Any fines for non payment of parking,tolls, speeding etc are sent to the Registered owner of the vehicle i.e in this case the Hire company, because the number plate is used to identify vehicle.

The Hire Companies protect themselves by having a clause that will state the Hirer is responsible for any parking,tolls, speeding fines etc incurred during their hire period, generally for a period of about 3 months after hire. They will then charge those fines to Hirers Credit Card.


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## siobhanwf

lagosguy said:


> I am afraid your reply is so convoluted that I really can't understand what you are trying to say.



Not at all even I can understand where he is coming from


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## robc

Thanks Canoe and Siobhan, I know I can easily slip into "legalese" (old work related habits die hard) so try and keep my responses as clear as possible. 

This whole issue of tolls and how to pay them is always going to be challenging, it appears that as usual, Govt. bodies and sponsored entities introduce legislation and then expect the market to sort it out. Twas ever thus, so why not just get on with it.............to my mind if I were running a Hire Car Company I would look to get the most elegant solution sorted first and then use it as a marketing tool. 
Market advantage means profit in the till.

As an aside, for those who have not driven on UK roads for a while then I suggest coming over for a 1000 mile roadtrip on A and B Roads.

That should make you more than happy to pay tolls. 

Rob


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## canoeman

" I would look to get the most elegant solution sorted first and then use it as a marketing tool. 
Market advantage means profit in the till."

Exactly, those companies that do will capture a greater market share and repeat custom.


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## lagosguy

robc said:


> So the fact that these are taxes which are applied to the purchase of goods and services at the point of delivery in no way requires the purchaser of said goods and services to take any responsibility for their payment of them.
> 
> So, following your logic, shops need not collect IVA, VAT, call it what you will then? As the purchaser is under no legal obligation to pay them.


I didn't want to be rude and say that your argument is specious without first seeking to clarify in my own mind what you had meant to say. But, I'll go ahead anyway and you will doubtless correct me if I have misunderstood. 

Tolls are tolls and taxes are taxes and the two are completely different things. I don't understand why you keep trying to link the two together. 

If you try to buy goods or services, the price you are quoted includes IVA. Retailers and service providers are legally required to add the tax to the actual price of the goods and services they provide and to pay it on to the government. Purchasers can't avoid paying the tax because it's included in the price. 

In the case of hire cars, the hire charge includes an element of IVA, which the hirer has to pay and the hire company has to pass on to the govenment.

What does that have to do with tolls, which are simply charges levied whenever a car passes under a toll gantry on a chargeable road? They are not linked to any purchase of goods or services, They have aboslutely nothing at all to do with the business of hiring cars.

As regards the suggestion that hire companies should set up good toll collection systems and use that as a marketing tool, that might work at the top end of the market. The multi-nationals with their posh reception areas and masses of staff could probably absorb the cost and hirers who are prepared to pay a premium price will doubtless value the additional service they receive. 

For the bulk of the market, however, any marketing benefits would be more than outweighed by the increase in the hire charges needed to recover the cost of the additional administration. The small companies which trade on smaller margins out of Faro Airport Car Park 4 (often with one person booking cars out and one or at most two people booking them back in) get most of their customers (initially at least) through webtrawler sites, which search the various hire companies' sites for the best deals and present the results in price order, lowest first. Increasing their charges in order to have a good toll collection system would actually put those companies at a major disadvantage against their competitors who didn't bother and who thus appeared higher up the list of results. These companies, however much they might want to, simply can't afford to take on the administrative burden that you want to place on them. 

And you (and more particulary Canoeman to whom I addressed that particular post) still haven't addressed the practical objection that I raised, which is that Car Park 4, in it's current state of chaos, simply could not cope with the additional delay that would result, if, in addition to checking each car's condition and petrol level, hire companies now had to interrogate the electronic box and take payment from the customers. Bear in mind that at present the one or two people who check cars back in don't have to take any payment and don't therefore have any means of doing so...... so more credit card machines ...probably more staff.... yet more cost for these small companies... and a car park that nobody can get into or out of. How to attract tourists to the Algarve 101.


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## Waterdog

As I have just joined the expat forum this is my first message (Bit of a virgin!).

I am moving to Logos & as I do not have a car in Portugal, hire cars to & from Faro Airport will become important.

I have followed the debate on the tolls on the A22 & am totally confused! 

Are they on or off & if on, how do I pay them at the airport before flying out?

ps I do not have a credit card so would complete all of my transactions with cash. Help.


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## robc

lagosguy said:


> I didn't want to be rude and say that your argument is specious without first seeking to clarify in my own mind what you had meant to say. But, I'll go ahead anyway and you will doubtless correct me if I have misunderstood. *I did not think that so no worries there*
> 
> Tolls are tolls and taxes are taxes and the two are completely different things. I don't understand why you keep trying to link the two together. *The issue is not what I, or for that matter any other individual thinks, it is how tolls are perceived by the authorities. They are seen as a "travel tax" to assist with the construction and maintenance of 1st class road links (I think that you can guess that some of those words are not mine ), and as such they see it as a civic duty for those companies and individuals to collect on their behalf.*
> 
> If you try to buy goods or services, the price you are quoted includes IVA. Retailers and service providers are legally required to add the tax to the actual price of the goods and services they provide and to pay it on to the government. Purchasers can't avoid paying the tax because it's included in the price.
> 
> In the case of hire cars, the hire charge includes an element of IVA,*It does but it should not, the price charged is the nett price upon which the IVA is levied, this is fundamental due to aggregation, whereupon the rounding to 2 decimal points may favour either the purchaser and supplier dependent upon whether the summation is done pre or post IVA application.* which the hirer has to pay and the hire company has to pass on to the govenment.*Again due to aggregation the purchaser (s) may be charged more via the inclusive calculation than should have been charged were the calculation done the other way. I appreciate that this is semantics in most situations, especially relating to a single taxable event, but it is massively relevant in multiple single point events. *
> 
> 
> As regards the suggestion that hire companies should set up good toll collection systems and use that as a marketing tool, that might work at the top end of the market.*When I did my marketing studies, admittedly many years ago, there was an oft used mantra, "change or die"..........it may be wise for some to consider this mantra in the context of their car hire businesses.*
> 
> 
> And you (and more particulary Canoeman to whom I addressed that particular post) still haven't addressed the practical objection that I raised, which is that Car Park 4, in it's current state of chaos, simply could not cope with the additional delay that would result, if, in addition to checking each car's condition and petrol level, hire companies now had to interrogate the electronic box and take payment from the customers. Bear in mind that at present the one or two people who check cars back in don't have to take any payment and don't therefore have any means of doing so......*again it may be time to apply the mantra......"if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got"........the system is not going to change or if it does it will take a long time.......why not try and get ahead of the game, unlike the EU politicians but that is a whole new thread*
> 
> As Bill Gates once said................."Life ain't fair .....get used to it"
> 
> Rob


----------



## lagosguy

Waterdog said:


> As I have just joined the expat forum this is my first message (Bit of a virgin!).
> 
> I am moving to Logos & as I do not have a car in Portugal, hire cars to & from Faro Airport will become important.
> 
> I have followed the debate on the tolls on the A22 & am totally confused!
> 
> Are they on or off & if on, how do I pay them at the airport before flying out?
> 
> ps I do not have a credit card so would complete all of my transactions with cash. Help.



Hi Waterdog and welcome

At the moment there are no tolls between Faro and Lagos. The government has announced start dates for the implementation of tolls on the A22 (the motorway that runs east - west from the Spanish border to Lagos) on several occasions but each time the date has slipped. 

In theory, the government has to ensure that there is a proper alternative route before introducing tolls on a SCUT road (i.e. toll free road) and there is much debate about whether the N125 (the old so-called Road of Death) can ever be turned into a suitable alternative (given that the A22 was built because the N125 was unsafe and prone to blockages) and, if it can, how long it will take and how much it will cost. 

Originally the government didn't want to put tolls on the A22, but it was blackmailed into doing so, because the opposition wouldn't agree to allow tolls to be introduced on other SCUT roads if the A22 wasn't included. 

As regards your specific questions.

Nobody yet knows what the arrangement will be for paying tolls when using hire cars. That's what most of the argument here is about. Some of us believe that it is the government's responsibility to ensure that the tolls can be paid on time and that the electronic system being introduced makes this impossible for tourists. Others believe that the hire companies sould get the government off the hook by creating their own toll-collection systems. Until the government actually introduces the tolls on the A22, it doesn't really matter to us full- or part-time Algarvians.

Without a credit card you are going to find it near impossible to hire a car. The hire companies insist on taking an imprint of the hirer's credit card so that, if the car is damaged or returned with insufficient petrol, or if the hirer incurs speeding or parking fines, the company can recover the cost through the hirer's credit card. Even a debit card is unacceptable. This is standard practice in the hire car environment, not just in Portugal.

Hope you enjoy Lagos: it's a fantastic place.


----------



## lagosguy

RobC

I am not sure there is that much between us; but I am afraid that substituting cliches like "change or die" and "if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got" for reasoned argument don't take us very far towards solving the problem. 

As regards the A22 tolls, the hire companies do not need to "change or die". However much the government may argue that they have a civic duty to collect the tolls, unless and until it legislates to make them do so, the hire companies can sit back and let it all go pear-shaped around them with inpunity. If the people who hire their cars don't (or can't) pay the tolls, then the hire company can just pass on whatever charges and fines it receives from the authorities as the vehicle owner. If all the small hire companies that use the white box in Car Park 4 take the same line, then none of them will suffer commercially compared with any others. It will be the government that (quite rightly) gets the blame for introducing a system that doesn't work in the car hire environment and it will be the Algarve tourism industry that suffers for the government's incompetence. 

The chaos in Car Park 4 at Faro Airport is entirely the fault of the airport authorities. New airport buildings are being erected all round the car park and the space allocated to the hire companies is shrinking. In the past the car park has often become congested, but by getting returned cars out quickly, the hire companies have managed to keep it ticking over. The only way I can see that hire companies could collect the tolls would be by fitting their cars with electronic boxes and then, when the cars were returned, charging each hirer whatever tolls the box showed were incurred during the hire period. Inevitably that would lengthen the time it took to return a car. Even if it took 10 minutes rather than the current five, it would mean that each returned car would have to remain in the car park for twice as long as now. Result: gridlock. 

That is a practical problem that it is entirely beyond the ability of the car hire companies to solve, unless of course you would suggest that they employed double the number of staff to book cars back in. But, that would mean that their costs would increase significantly and they would risk becoming uncompetitive. Why would they willingly put themselves in that position? Squeezed between the government's flawed toll system and the apparent indifference of the Faro Airport authoritiers to the cheap end of the car hire market, the hire companies and the tourists that use them don't stand much of a chance.

(Edited to add) Canoeman keeps complaining about the hire companies' failure to introduce any new systems since the tolls were introduced in the north over a year ago. That would suggest that the hire companies have indeed agreed among themselves not to bale out the government, in which case it is more than likely that the same will happen if/when the A22 tolls are introduced.


----------



## canoeman

The car park is the airports responsibility and really has nothing to do with this debate, no doubt like other airports or anywhere making improvements to infrastructure will come to a conclusion!, as to your assertion that charging returning customers tolls from the "electronic" boxes would cause gridlock, just demonstrates that you have little understanding of how the system actually operates, yes tolls do show quicker than at CTT but they are not necessarily instantaneous, so charges would have to be made when returned car paperwork processed, a procedure that all hire companies have to do to monitor existing agreements.

As you admit that hire companies 
" The hire companies insist on taking an imprint of the hirer's credit card so that, if the car is damaged or returned with insufficient petrol, or if the hirer incurs speeding or parking fines, the company can recover the cost through the hirer's credit card. Even a debit card is unacceptable. This is standard practice in the hire car environment, not just in Portugal.

Exactly the same will apply to unpaid tolls, yes I do complain about the hire companies "head in the sand" attitude, the company that wakes up to the commercial advantage of adding "tolls, boxes or a sensible payment system" to the existing services they offer like baby seats, sat navs etc will gain customers.


----------



## robc

lagosguy said:


> RobC
> *
> I am not sure there is that much between us; but I am afraid that substituting cliches like "change or die" and "if you always do what you have always done you will always get what you have always got" for reasoned argument don't take us very far towards solving the problem. *
> 
> OK, so reasoned argument goes thus......
> 
> If the hire companies are going to bear the cost of the tolls as they are the registered owner of the vehicles they will have to recover the monies from the Hirer by some means such as
> 1. Increase the hire charge
> 2. Provide pre-paid boxes
> 3. Undertake post hire recharge to the hirer
> 
> Now I reason that there are two ways to do this, proactively in a structured manner whereby the transition goes smoothly, Hirers appreciate the additional service and respond with their future purchasing decisions accordingly.
> The second way is to do nothing, sit and moan about it all, lose business, goodwill and profit.
> 
> Their choice.
> 
> With regards to Faro, you may not have been to Luton Airport when it was undergoing change, it got so bad that queues of up to 40 mins were experienced on the M1, just to get to the roundabout, so what happened.
> 
> The hire companies went off site, then minibussed (I think that is the right spelling) Clients into and out of the Airport and because they had more than 8 passengers could use the rapid transit bus lanes.
> 
> So you were minimally inconvenienced.
> 
> It just takes a little thought.
> 
> Rob


----------



## siobhanwf

But the REAL question is WHEN??? did the government mean April 2012 for the start of tolls


----------



## Waterdog

lagosguy. Many thanks for the update & current state of play. 

Re credit cards - experience has shown that the rustle of chrisp notes usually unblocks the problem.


----------



## lagosguy

robc said:


> lagosguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> RobC
> *
> 
> OK, so reasoned argument goes thus......
> 
> If the hire companies are going to bear the cost of the tolls as they are the registered owner of the vehicles they will have to recover the monies from the Hirer by some means such as
> 1. Increase the hire charge
> 2. Provide pre-paid boxes
> 3. Undertake post hire recharge to the hirer
> 
> Now I reason that there are two ways to do this, proactively in a structured manner whereby the transition goes smoothly, Hirers appreciate the additional service and respond with their future purchasing decisions accordingly.
> The second way is to do nothing, sit and moan about it all, lose business, goodwill and profit.
> 
> Their choice.
> 
> With regards to Faro, you may not have been to Luton Airport when it was undergoing change, it got so bad that queues of up to 40 mins were experienced on the M1, just to get to the roundabout, so what happened.
> 
> The hire companies went off site, then minibussed (I think that is the right spelling) Clients into and out of the Airport and because they had more than 8 passengers could use the rapid transit bus lanes.
> 
> So you were minimally inconvenienced.
> 
> It just takes a little thought.
> 
> Rob*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> In order to have the kind of off site operation you describe the hire companies need
> 
> 1. A base that is easily accessible to arriving and departing customers
> 2. Depending on how far the base is from the airport, two, three four or more mini buses to take the customers to and fro
> 3. Drivers to drive the mini vans between the airport and base
> 4. Staff to operate the base and staff to maintain it.
> 
> You are describing the type of operation that already exists at Faro and which only the major hire companies like Europe Car can afford. I used their service once. Never again. It took me well over an hour to get my car instead of the 15 muinutes it takes at the airport and over half an hour to drop it off compared with 5 minutes at the airport. From my perspective a far worse service at far higher cost.
> 
> The small companies that I and very many tourists and regular visitors to the Algarve use have minimal overheads. They operate out of the airport car park (for which they probably have to pay a fee; but nothing approaching the cost of running a full scale off-site operation) and they can get by with a single person booking cars out one or two booking them back in at any one time. Because of their small overheads they can charge extremely low fees, vastly lower than the large companies. That is what most customers want and, if, in order to maintain that price advantage, they have wash their hands of the tolls and adopt your option 3, then so be it.*
Click to expand...


----------



## lagosguy

Waterdog said:


> lagosguy. Many thanks for the update & current state of play.
> 
> Re credit cards - experience has shown that the rustle of chrisp notes usually unblocks the problem.



I've seen many people try at Faro and not one succeed. I'd advise you to check with some of the companies before you fly out just to see if they will waive the credit card requirement. Otherwise I fear you could arrive at Faro and find yourself stranded.

Good luck.


----------



## canoeman

Waterdog said:


> lagosguy. Many thanks for the update & current state of play.
> 
> Re credit cards - experience has shown that the rustle of chrisp notes usually unblocks the problem.


not if MrB is to be believed, think you'll find it extremely difficult to hire out of Faro without a Card of some description and certainly virtually impossible to pre book especially online.


----------



## robc

lagosguy said:


> robc said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to have the kind of off site operation you describe the hire companies need
> 
> 1. A base that is easily accessible to arriving and departing customers
> 2. Depending on how far the base is from the airport, two, three four or more mini buses to take the customers to and fro
> 3. Drivers to drive the mini vans between the airport and base
> 4. Staff to operate the base and staff to maintain it.
> 
> You are describing the type of operation that already exists at Faro and which only the major hire companies like Europe Car can afford. I used their service once. Never again. It took me well over an hour to get my car instead of the 15 muinutes it takes at the airport and over half an hour to drop it off compared with 5 minutes at the airport. From my perspective a far worse service at far higher cost.
> 
> The small companies that I and very many tourists and regular visitors to the Algarve use have minimal overheads. They operate out of the airport car park (for which they probably have to pay a fee; but nothing approaching the cost of running a full scale off-site operation) and they can get by with a single person booking cars out one or two booking them back in at any one time. Because of their small overheads they can charge extremely low fees, vastly lower than the large companies. That is what most customers want and, if, in order to maintain that price advantage, they have wash their hands of the tolls and adopt your option 3, then so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not doubt the complexity of setting up this type of arrangement, but I think the point is being missed here. It is not about what you and I think, it is about the rental companies coming up with a solution for a short term logistical mess, their business, their profit, or loss, and their choice.
> 
> Having used both the minor companies and the major hire companies not just in Portugal but all over the world, I would always go large, I have always found them to be better.
> 
> Again this is subjective personal opinion and preferences, the point being that if there is a problem with a situation then you (you as in a business affected by the problem situation) are faced with a series of choices and constraints.
> 
> Time for them to choose what they want to do, again subjectively I have found moaning and complaining rarely solved anything.
> 
> Rob
Click to expand...


----------



## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> not if MrB is to be believed, think you'll find it extremely difficult to hire out of Faro without a Card of some description and certainly virtually impossible to pre book especially online.




I said that to my son who came out with the family at Easter.... and he proved me WRONG. Booked online. Paid in advance taking out the car hire companies insurance (Europcar) NO credit required here  and he is not in the habit of palming off any cash!


----------



## lagosguy

siobhanwf said:


> I said that to my son who came out with the family at Easter.... and he proved me WRONG. Booked online. Paid in advance taking out the car hire companies insurance (Europcar) NO credit required here  and he is not in the habit of palming off any cash!


I'm suprised he was allowed to do that given what we've been saying about the hire companies recovering tolls etc through the hirers' credit cards.


----------



## lagosguy

robc said:


> lagosguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not doubt the complexity of setting up this type of arrangement, but I think the point is being missed here. It is not about what you and I think, it is about the rental companies coming up with a solution for a short term logistical mess, their business, their profit, or loss, and their choice.
> 
> Having used both the minor companies and the major hire companies not just in Portugal but all over the world, I would always go large, I have always found them to be better.
> 
> Again this is subjective personal opinion and preferences, the point being that if there is a problem with a situation then you (you as in a business affected by the problem situation) are faced with a series of choices and constraints.
> 
> Time for them to choose what they want to do, again subjectively I have found moaning and complaining rarely solved anything.
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> The point which is being missed is that the hire companies already have a solution, which they have apparently implemented in the areas where tolls already apply. It amounts to ignoring the tolls and simply passing on any charges and fines that they receive. However much you may wish they would do something different, they can continue this practice indefinitely.
Click to expand...


----------



## siobhanwf

The situation is no different in Ireland. While there recently I only became aware of the automatic toll across the Liffey when I mentioned to my sister that I hadn't realized that the tolls had been removed. Should have been due for a fine but called and paid 24hours late and they let me off!!!! Piad by c/c over the phone


----------



## Waterdog

As could be expected, before arriving at my current decision, I have made a number of visits to Portugal. To date I have never had any problems hiring cars with cash from either large or small companies; either on or off line.

Whatever, the introduction of tolls on the A22 (if they ever materialise) could change all of this so the crux is, "When will it happen & will we get sufficient warning".

Oh well there is always the train


----------



## canoeman

Maybe you could post names of companies as their are often people wishing to hire cars, who either don't have a credit car or don't wish to pay by credit card. 

When it will happen is a wait and see, the hire company should tell you or you can ask at time of collection, you've always got the N125 as a free alternative.


----------



## Waterdog

Wouldn't that be advertising?


----------



## canoeman

Surely a recommendation


----------



## Waterdog

Advertising/recommending, seem rather similar & I would hate to break the rules this early!

As I have never booked a hire car at Faro airport I cannot comment on the practice there. 

Rather, I visit the company office & lack of a credit card has never resulted in me being refused a car. 

When out of Portugal I e-mail the company's with the same result but I have always mailed companies I have used previously.

Following some responses on this site, I have asked around & others also confirm that they regularly use cash in preference to credit cards. They also identified a large number of companies so the message is - if you wan't a cash deal why not just ask? If they say no - go elsewhere.

However if/when the A22 tolls happen all agree that cash transactions will have to be a thing of the past & cannot see how the N125 being free of tolls will have any bearing on this cash issue.

But isn't this is rather getting off the theme of this thread - tolls on the A22, when will they commence & what will be their impact?


----------



## siobhanwf

:focus: Commencement date is still to be announced.


----------



## canoeman

Who knows the effect, slight I would imagine, payment methods for Portuguese cars already published, might still undergo change, toll payment by cash only available through Post Office or Pasyshops or hiring a "box"


----------



## nandnjudge2

*MOTORWAY TOLLS, the saga rolls on*

European Transport Commission requests Portugal to comply with rules on the charging of heavy goods vehicles

Interesting link in particular the line
The reason for this request
The Portuguese law transposing the Euro vignette Directive contains a provision that leaves concession toll systems entirely outside the scope of the directive. The Commission considers this to be contrary to the directive. In addition, Portugal failed to comply with the obligation to communicate to the Commission information on the calculation of the tolls for newly introduced tolling arrangements.
Link
EUROPA - Press Releases - Transport: Commission requests Portugal to comply with rules on the charging of heavy goods vehicles

The action instigated by the EEC follows a complaint by Spain in relation to the introduction of tolls last October on the A28 

Perhaps there is another directive that we are not aware of concerning the rest of us.
It will be very interesting what action Portugal will take, if any?

Watch this space


----------



## canoeman

Interesting, but why can't people write clearly, all it appears to say is that Portugal has not informed the commission, not that tradtional tolls and new SCUT tolls are illegal, unless they where discriminatory or not based on recovering infrastructure costs, as it only relates to heavy goods vehicles, will it impact on car driver, doubt it. 
and what is European Road Network is it all roads or only E roads?

As you say watch and wait


----------



## siobhanwf

A friend drove from the Algarve to Spain yesterday and said that the notices indicating the cost of passing a toll point have been covered in canvas for months now. The ones they passed yesterday no longer are. You can't see what the tolls will be because the boards are the sort where the price can be adjusted remotely.


----------



## canoeman

First 3 gates now live on the A13 from junction with A23


----------



## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> First 3 gates now live on the A13 from junction with A23


----------



## wink

Are electric powered cars subject to the tolls?


----------



## canoeman

Any vehicle that uses traditional or electronic tolls


----------



## siobhanwf

Due to drive north middle of November. (leaving Nov 7th) Hope we manage to escape the A22 tolls


----------



## canoeman

A22 South last time I used it


----------



## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> A22 South last time I used it



knowing my luck it will be on the way north too by the time we leave


----------



## Guest

*Tolls in Portugal*

I now live in Spain and have a Spanish registered car. At the beginning of October I spent a few days in Carvoiera using the A22/N125 to get there. I noticed the new overhead stanchions and costing boards for the collection of tolls in the near future. On contacting your site I saw from your forum that tolls have caused some heated discussions amongst ex pats in the area.
As far as I gather you have to pay ay a post office or similar after a couple of days as the Reg plate is photoed and notification is sent to the registered owner?' Can someone explain how a foreign plated vehilel is treated, are the tolls "drive through", how would you know whether you have been charged should you be on the way back to spain or anywhere outside Portugal???


----------



## canoeman

Strictly speaking under current regulations you shouldn't use the electronic tolls roads with a _Non Registered Portuguese car_, unless you hire, have one of the electronic boxes, or register for the pre-paid option with CTT Portuguese Post Office.

At the moment there is *NO* provision for a_ Non Registered Portuguese car_ to pay at a Post Office or Payshops.

The electronic tolls are drive through, they capture a picture of car & number plate.

There is no "postal" billing for payment, only fines for non payment.

Currently Non Registered Portuguese vehicles don't appear to being targeted for no boxes, using electronic toll roads or non payment, but that isn't to say it won't happen.


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> Strictly speaking under current regulations you shouldn't use the electronic tolls roads with a _Non Registered Portuguese car_, unless you hire, have one of the electronic boxes, or register for the pre-paid option with CTT Portuguese Post Office.
> 
> At the moment there is *NO* provision for a_ Non Registered Portuguese car_ to pay at a Post Office or Payshops.
> 
> The electronic tolls are drive through, they capture a picture of car & number plate.
> 
> There is no "postal" billing for payment, only fines for non payment.
> 
> Currently Non Registered Portuguese vehicles don't appear to being targeted for no boxes, using electronic toll roads or non payment, but that isn't to say it won't happen.


Canoe, Can I just dig a little deeper on this.

In essence what you are saying is that when I travel down next week and use the A25 and A13 around Santarem and Torres Novos, should I get photographed using an electronic toll road (as appears most likely) then there is no facility for me to pay the toll as I will be driving a UK registered car.

Yet when I collect and fit the ViaVerde box, (to the UK registered car), that is hopefully waiting for me when I arrive at destination then using the same roads for the return journey will trigger electronic payments to be made for the same tolls.

I don't dispute what is being said, I just find it interesting.

I think I may try a Post Office anyway to see if I can pay the "outbound" tolls. 

Thanks

Rob


----------



## canoeman

That's it yes, at the moment _Non Registered Portuguese cars_ are photographed but there is no system for the transfer of information to the CTT for payment across the counter and you'll get a blank look and a shrug

Yet there is a CTT option to register and prepay for 3 or 5 days unlimited use of electronic toll roads *this does not cover tradtional ticket and pay toll roads like A1* 
CTT - Aderir

Whereas when you fit ViaVerde box, it's the box that is interrogated for information on toll payment, the number plate only comes into it because each ViaVerde box is registered to a specific plate.


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> That's it yes, at the moment _Non Registered Portuguese cars_ are photographed but there is no system for the transfer of information to the CTT for payment across the counter and you'll get a blank look and a shrug
> 
> Yet there is a CTT option to register and prepay for 3 or 5 days unlimited use of electronic toll roads *this does not cover tradtional ticket and pay toll roads like A1*
> CTT - Aderir
> 
> Whereas when you fit ViaVerde box, it's the box that is interrogated for information on toll payment, the number plate only comes into it because each ViaVerde box is registered to a specific plate.


Hmmmmm So how is this system helping to prevent _non portuguese registered _cars from being used for longer than legally permissable, In fact, unless I am having a very senior moment, it discourages registering the car in Portugal.

I think I may have answered my own question.:confused2:


----------



## lagosguy

leojean said:


> I now live in Spain and have a Spanish registered car. At the beginning of October I spent a few days in Carvoiera using the A22/N125 to get there. I noticed the new overhead stanchions and costing boards for the collection of tolls in the near future. On contacting your site I saw from your forum that tolls have caused some heated discussions amongst ex pats in the area.
> As far as I gather you have to pay ay a post office or similar after a couple of days as the Reg plate is photoed and notification is sent to the registered owner?' Can someone explain how a foreign plated vehilel is treated, are the tolls "drive through", how would you know whether you have been charged should you be on the way back to spain or anywhere outside Portugal???


Further to Canoeman's response, what the Portuguese government expects is that every driver of a Spanish car crossing the border on the A22 will somehow get hold of an electronic toll box before reaching the first toll stanchion. Whether it is sensible to expect that this will actually happen is debatable. 

It will only be practicable if there is a supply of electronic boxes that is (a) adequate for all drivers who need them and (b) obtainable without undue difficulty between the border and the first stanchion. I suspect the chances of these conditions being satisfied are somewhere between minimal and non-existent. 

Much will also depend on whether Spanish car drivers will bother to continue into Portugal, once they realise what a palaver they are going to be put through, and, if they do then continue with their journey, whether they will simply drive into Portugal as now, without caring less about the tolls, and take the chance either that the Portuguese authorities won't ever get around to chasing payment or, if they do, that the Spanish government will decline to help enforce a toll that it disputes Portugal's right to charge Spanish citizens.

And, of course, if the Portuguese government decides that the battle isn't worth fighting over Spanish registered cars, how long will it be before other foreign national driving their own cars into Portugal take the same approach? And how will the Portuguese regard foreign cars not paying the tolls and not being chased for payment? How long will it be before they decide to treat the tolls with the same contempt and just stop paying them? Hopefully, not very long.


----------



## canoeman

The electronic tolls are about payment for road tolls, _not catching overstayers_, but no doubt if the GNR, Customs or Fiscal police etc wanted they could access system and make use of information.

Local police are well aware of the overstayers, it's whether they do anything about it or someone is caught in a sweep or spot check.


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> The electronic tolls are about payment for road tolls, _not catching overstayers_, but no doubt if the GNR, Customs or Fiscal police etc wanted they could access system and make use of information.
> 
> Local police are well aware of the overstayers, it's whether they do anything about it or someone is caught in a sweep or spot check.


Fair point.............I think Lagosguy also raises some interesting points as well. 
It does all seem a bit "half arsed", would it not be better to have the electronic box supply situation sorted first.

Again, I think I may be in danger of reaching my own conclusions on this 

Rob


----------



## canoeman

Boxes are there, maybe not exactly where they need to be, but that's ever the case.

The problem is information, where you can actually get a box and are they open or accessible at times convenient for drivers, for Portuguese drivers yes, because they have a variety of options, for non Portuguese sadly not, so a better easier system of payment is required, as is obtaining the ViaVerde boxes, the french can do it, a lesson for ViaVerde. https://www.saneftolling.co.uk/

Yes Lagosguy does make some interesting points but it's not just Spanish it's every Non Registered Portuguese vehicle that is expected to know what to do.

_"How long will it be before they decide to treat the tolls with the same contempt and just stop paying them?"_
As Portuguese law has been altered to easily recover unpaid tolls from Portuguese registered cars, non payment is asking for trouble.


----------



## Waterdog

Question for our Moderator. It appears that we now have more than one thread on this increasingly confusing situation. To give a complete history & make it easier to follow the various arguments is it possible to merge these various threads into a single one?


----------



## Waterdog

It is my understanding that, possibly because of the question of the N125 as a suitable alternative, the A22 is still not tolled? Are all of the other Portuguese A roads now subject to tolls?


----------



## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> _"How long will it be before they decide to treat the tolls with the same contempt and just stop paying them?"_
> As Portuguese law has been altered to easily recover unpaid tolls from Portuguese registered cars, non payment is asking for trouble.


That's as maybe. But you can't reasonably expect Portuguese drivers to continue paying a tax for using specific roads that non-Portuguese drivers are using free of charge. Sooner of later they will cry foul. 

I don't think we are far away from the point where civil disobedience becomes a routine way of getting the government's attention. It's already worked for the Greeks, where their violent refusal to accept their government's austerity measures has resulted in the country's being let off half its debts, which I bet in due course will allow the government to relax its austerity measures. 

The Portuguese people may not be a volatile as the Greeks (or they may be and I simply haven't seen them sufficiently riled); but they would be unwise not to learn the lesson of their fellow southern Europeans. Refusing to pay unfair tolls would be a good warm-up for the main event.


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## canoeman

This link for the current live "electronic toll" roads Portal Tráfego

Traditional ticket & pay toll roads A1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,21, but there are A roads that currently aren't tolled.


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## canoeman

Well those in the North & Silver Coast have already been paying these tolls for a year plus, maybe there's such an outcry in the Algarve because unless you use the A2 to drive North your not familiar with tolled roads or need to use them to travel quickly and efficiently.


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## Waterdog

On the assumption that the A22 wil be tolled will it be possible to get across the Guadiana Bridge & onto the N125 without entering a tolled area or will the Ayamonte ferry be the only option?


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## moggy666

canoeman said:


> This link for the current live "electronic toll" roads Portal Tráfego
> 
> Traditional ticket & pay toll roads A1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,21, but there are A roads that currently aren't tolled.


Looked at a newspaper report at the weekend from the Portugal News saying the first three cameras on the A23 go live tomorrow 1st Nov. From Entroncamento to Santa Cita. 

We are coming to Portugal in November and have hired a car. I sopke with the hire company tonight, who are fully aware of the new electronic tolls, and they told me all their hire cars have been registered and have on board registration cards and the customer will be billed for all electronic tolls via the credit card used to book the car.


lane:


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## moggy666

canoeman said:


> Well those in the North & Silver Coast have already been paying these tolls for a year plus, maybe there's such an outcry in the Algarve because unless you use the A2 to drive North your not familiar with tolled roads or need to use them to travel quickly and efficiently.


looked at a newspaper report at the weekend from the Portugal News saying the first three cameras on the A23 go live tomorrow 1st Nov. From Entroncamento to Santa Cita. 

We are coming to Portugal in November and have hired a car. I sopke with the hire company tonight, who are fully aware of the new electronic tolls, and they told me all their hire cars have been registered and have on board registration cards and the customer will be billed for all electronic tolls via the credit card used to book the car.


lane:


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## moggy666

siobhanwf said:


> knowing my luck it will be on the way north too by the time we leave


looked at a newspaper report at the weekend from the Portugal News saying the first three cameras on the A23 go live tomorrow 1st Nov. From Entroncamento to Santa Cita. 

We are coming to Portugal in November and have hired a car. I sopke with the hire company tonight, who are fully aware of the new electronic tolls, and they told me all their hire cars have been registered and have on board registration cards and the customer will be billed for all electronic tolls via the credit card used to book the car.


lane:


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## canoeman

Please post the company, because that seems to be the first to actually put a sensible system into operation.


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## Waterdog

Maybe the outcry in the Algarve is because they are only too aware of the damage these tolls could do to their tourist industry; particularly with the Spanish element of this market, which with noticeably higher fuel prices etc. on the Portuguese side of the border, is already rather fragile.


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## moggy666

canoeman said:


> Please post the company, because that seems to be the first to actually put a sensible system into operation.


Without advertising i booked my car through auto-europe.co.uk. when i spoke with them they went direct to the hire company at the airport who gave them the information i posted.


Rental Company:
GUERIN
LISBON AIRPORT
AEROPORTO DA PORTELA
DESK IN TERMINAL
Tel: 351 21 848 6191

lane:


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## canoeman

Waterdog said:


> On the assumption that the A22 wil be tolled will it be possible to get across the Guadiana Bridge & onto the N125 without entering a tolled area or will the Ayamonte ferry be the only option?


I believe first Toll Gantry is halfway between Vila Real and Tavira so no problem.


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## canoeman

The Algarve is not the only province in Portugal in which tourism is important or the extremely close links, culturally and financial that Portugal has with Spain, these links are far stronger in the North where the tolls have made little appreciable difference to cross border traffic or the stream of Spanish cars, using Porto airport, Ikea and Primark.


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## siobhanwf

moggy666 said:


> Without advertising i booked my car through auto-europe.co.uk. when i spoke with them they went direct to the hire company at the airport who gave them the information i posted.
> 
> 
> Rental Company:
> GUERIN
> LISBON AIRPORT
> AEROPORTO DA PORTELA
> DESK IN TERMINAL
> Tel: 351 21 848 6191
> 
> lane:



Brilliant Moggy THANKS whole heaps :clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Waterdog

Only time will tell - but as this thread was started by a Brit Expat living in Spain possibly Leojean could provide some insight into the local Spanish thinking on the Portuguese intention to toll the A22 & the higher cost of living in Southern Portugal in general. 

Regarding tourism, I suspect tourism is more significant to the Algarve economy than in other parts of Portugal; hence their great concerns.


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## lagosguy

*Another welcome delay for the A22 tolls.*

Algarve Resident - the REAL Algarve Resident - 1st for News, information and classifieds - Fight to continue as parliament delays tolls decision AGAIN

:clap2:


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## canoeman

If you researched the value of tourism to the North think you would be very surprised, yes it's not the Algarve type of tourism based around package holidays and golf as a generalization, but a very varied and mobile tourist.

Higher cost of living in Southern Portugal is a direct result of tourism.


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## Guest

As a reply to "warthog" I am only able to give a personal position on Tolls in Spain which are (as most) on main motor ways and can be fairly expensive but most can (and many are) able to be circumvented by good class roads. One habit that is galling can be the rise in prices during the tourist season (June to Oct) which effects the locals who have to use the roads as there are no discounts for residents.
It would appear from your posts that Portugal are having difficulty in deciding how to impliment the use of the equipment? perhaps the Swiss way of charging would be fairer whereby anyone using their M/ways have to obtain a pass or "vignette" costing around thirty euros BEFORE travelling on their designated roads. This can be obtained from the internet,prior to travelling, or at border posts, service areas and post offices. Failure to produce the card on demand results in a fine of 75 euros.
At least this way every one has to pay and the burden does not fall on the shoulders of the residents of that country.


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## canoeman

That option is available to you at CTT - Aderir
either 3 or 5 day "Vignette" .
Scroll down for English info


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## siobhanwf

The English wording of CTT - Aderir

The lanes in which tolls are electronic only are marked with a reference "electronic toll only". Foreign-registered vehicles have several payment options in order to circulate in these lanes.

Prepaid Products without Toll Tag (License plate registration):

• 3 days "Vignette" (valid for 3 days, only for Classes 1, 2 or 5 vehicles, unlimited number of trips in motorways without manual toll lanes, total amount to pay: 20,62€)
• 5 days Prepaid (valid for 5 days, trips limited to the deposit amount paid, rechargeable at Post Offices, PAYSHOP or at ATM machines, total amount to pay: 10,62€ for vehicle classes 1, 2, 5 (cars and motorcycles) or 20,62€ for vehicle classes 3 and 4 (heavy commercial vehicles)
• Trip to/from Airport Sá Carneiro (Oporto) - Ticket for 1 or 2 trips to/from Oporto's Airport through motorways A28 or A41 for client defined date
On sale here and on service areas of these motorways, as well as at Post Offices. Include administrative costs and a sales commission fee.

Pre-paid Toll Tag

• You may purchase a temporary prepaid toll tag (deposit fee in currency of 27,5€ plus 10 € in prepaid tolls for vehicle classes 1, 2, 5 (cars and motorcycles) or 20 € for vehicle classes 3 and 4 (heavy commercial vehicles).
• This prepaid is valid only in motorways without manual toll lanes and the toll tag is valid for 90 days, and may be renewed for 90 days periods with minimum prepaid toll amounts** of 10 €.
• Upon return of the undamaged complete tag (tag + bracket/holder + deposit fee receipt) within 30 days of purchase, the deposit amount paid is refunded. A rental fee will be charged according to period of use: 6 € first week and 1,5 € for each of the following weeks of use. Non used prepaid toll amounts are not refundable.

• You will be able to access to your toll electronic receipts at portagens.ctt.pt, by using your activation key (chave de activação) provided with the deposit fee receipt.
• You must install, use or dispose of your Tag in accordance to our instructions making sure to use it in vehicles that are of the same class as the Tag. Before placing the Tag on the windshield of your car, make sure that it is properly inserted in the holder.

• The prepaid toll tags are on sale on service areas of these motorways.
• For more information you may consult our website portagens.ctt.pt, call 707262626 or go to a Post Office.

** All recharges made through ATM services may take up to 48 hours.


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## siobhanwf

moggy666 said:


> Without advertising i booked my car through auto-europe.co.uk. when i spoke with them they went direct to the hire company at the airport who gave them the information i posted.
> 
> 
> Rental Company:
> GUERIN
> LISBON AIRPORT
> AEROPORTO DA PORTELA
> DESK IN TERMINAL
> Tel: 351 21 848 6191
> 
> lane:



I have just contacted several of the car hire companies to see what they are telling tourists. 
Will update when (if) I get a reply


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## canoeman

siobhanwf said:


> I have just contacted several of the car hire companies to see what they are telling tourists.
> Will update when (if) I get a reply


that'll be interesting, when I did the same thing with major hire companies represented at Faro, Lisbon and Porto it was either no reply or it's customers problem nothing to do with us
lets hope they'll now be following GUERIN example


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## siobhanwf

*The time has come*

The toll collection in the first three subsections of the IC3 and a A23 Tomar (Santa Cita), came into force on today Tuesday November 1st. 

Estradas de Portugal points out that the charge is "using the electronic system only, *without the possibility of manual payment on site*


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## canoeman

If your within the catchment area you can register for your free & discounted journies with your ViaVerde box, go to your online account and "Scuts Positiva"


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## siobhanwf

I don't know how accurate these pricings are but they were the only reference I could find


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## canoeman

Electronic tolls, maps, position of gantries, costs on this Estrada link as they become active. 

Portal Tráfego


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## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> Electronic tolls, maps, position of gantries, costs on this Estrada link as they become active.
> 
> Portal Tráfego



Thanks canoeman. Just found the costs on the bottom of that page DOH!


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## paulrees

*Algarve Tolls*

If you look at algarvedailynews and enter 'tolls' in the search box you will get a pretty complete picture of this utter fiasco.

eg 
A22 tolls delayed beyond October




siobhanwf said:


> With the date of implementaion of the tolls (Scut) on the A22 in the Algarve looming the Portugal News have an article on the Death toll on the alternative road EN125.
> 
> _Driving from Lagos to Vila Real do Santo António and back will cost motorists using the Algarve’s only motorway a total estimated value of €21.30 come 15 April._
> 
> _One of the main features of tolls on this previously unpaid motorway will be the principle of ‘positive discrimination’, which will allow for the exemption of local residents and companies.
> 
> According to the Minister of Transport and Public Works, António Mendonça, this principle will remain in force until June 30, 2012, after which the exemption will disappear on some motorways.
> 
> Motorists in the Algarve, who live in councils which are located at least within 20 kilometres of the A22 will be given ten credits to use the motorway for free.
> 
> Once these credits have been exhausted, a discount of 15% will apply.
> 
> But for visitors from elsewhere in the country, no exemption will apply, with the tens of thousands of visitors that flood the Algarve every summer now having to pay to use the A22 or travel on the dreaded EN125 instead._
> 
> Death toll?


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## canoeman

paulrees said:


> If you look at algarvedailynews and enter 'tolls' in the search box you will get a pretty complete picture of this utter fiasco.
> 
> It's only the A22 that is a fiasco, all other electronic tolls are proceeding and going live.


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## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> paulrees said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at algarvedailynews and enter 'tolls' in the search box you will get a pretty complete picture of this utter fiasco.
> 
> It's only the A22 that is a fiasco, all other electronic tolls are proceeding and going live.
> 
> 
> 
> Very true and it is hittinf the rest of the country faster than the Algarve and in much poorer economic areas
Click to expand...


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## paulrees

You can see the economic stupidity of the tolls in the north, specifically in Viana de Castelo by looking at 

http://algarvedailynews.com/news/4953-the-mayor-of-viana-do-castelo-says-the-north-of-the-country-is-the-qguinea-pigq-for-useless-government-plans[/URL]

9,000 vehicles a day are now using the inferior alternative roads ot the A28. This is in a low population area, the Algarve is more densley populated and is going to be a dangerous place to drive if the government eventually introduce tolls.






canoeman said:


> paulrees said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at algarvedailynews and enter 'tolls' in the search box you will get a pretty complete picture of this utter fiasco.
> 
> It's only the A22 that is a fiasco, all other electronic tolls are proceeding and going live.
Click to expand...


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## canoeman

paulrees said:


> You can see the economic stupidity of the tolls in the north, specifically in Viana de Castelo by looking at
> 
> http://algarvedailynews.com/news/4953-the-mayor-of-viana-do-castelo-says-the-north-of-the-country-is-the-qguinea-pigq-for-useless-government-plans[/URL]
> 
> 9,000 vehicles a day are now using the inferior alternative roads ot the A28. This is in a low population area, the Algarve is more densley populated and is going to be a dangerous place to drive if the government eventually introduce tolls.


He rather shoots himself in the foot as A3 is a toll road, just easier to pay but makes a good point that the north has been paying these tolls for a year now.

The North is hardly a low population area with the 3 main provinces of Porto,Braga and Viana do Castelo having 2,909,436 compared to Faro provence 450,484 which is obviously swelled by tourists but so is the North.
The coastal strip from Averio north to Caminha could easily be compared with the Algarve as could the roads as both have old and new.


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## Waterdog

It would appear that the A22 is being viewed as a special case?

A few posts ago Canoeman advised that after entering Portugal across the Rio Guadiana bridge, the first toll gantry on the A22 is between Vila Real de Santo Antonio & Tavira.

Clearly this could become a highly significant point so do we know how it is identified (road signs & the like)!

Additionally, from the experience up north, is an escape lane provided before one enters a tolled road?

Moreover is there a website that identifies where all of these toll gantries are located?

Please excuse the ignorance but in the deep south we have yet to enjoy the toll experience.


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## siobhanwf

The amount of traffic that goes through the north taking Portuguese products to the rest of Europe is far heavier than that on the roads across the Algarve


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## canoeman

Waterdog said:


> It would appear that the A22 is being viewed as a special case?
> 
> A few posts ago Canoeman advised that after entering Portugal across the Rio Guadiana bridge, the first toll gantry on the A22 is between Vila Real de Santo Antonio & Tavira.
> 
> Clearly this could become a highly significant point so do we know how it is identified (road signs & the like)!
> 
> Additionally, from the experience up north, is an escape lane provided before one enters a tolled road?
> 
> Moreover is there a website that identifies where all of these toll gantries are located?
> 
> Please excuse the ignorance but in the deep south we have yet to enjoy the toll experience.


Don't really see why
Lost my link to SCUT road signs, post when I've found it, there are signs warning your approaching an _electronic toll_ then signs with cost, then flashing sign for gantry, is there an escape lane, not really only if your aware of gantry positions.
Unofficial website Pórticos SCUT no Google Maps » Poupar Melhor 
Official websites only show maps, gantries & charges when operating Portal Tráfego


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## Waterdog

Canoeman - many thanks for all of the useful info & looking forward to your posting of the SCUT toll signs.

I am sure all will appreciate the significance of being able to legally avoid these tolls, or conversely being fully aware of when they are being incurred. Hence the interest in the location of the gantries.

At this juncture, possibly I should admit that because there is a very adequate public transport system in the Algarve (including the railway), in the major cities it should be perfectly possible to live without the curse of the car (hired or otherwise).

As one who has to spend significant time in the UK & elsewhere, I am aware that numerous would-be visitors to Portugal visit this forum to find out 'what's going on' & often make their decisions (holiday or otherwise) based on these first impressions. Thus the continuing debate on tolls & the confusion surrounding the A22 could already be doing the Algarve tourist industry some damage.

Therefore, my continuing questions are to try to establish for all (visitors & contributors) as clearer & up-to-date picture as possible.

Finally, an observation, if the A22 were not a special case then one would assume that the tolls would have come on-line at the same time as for the other motorways & there wouldn't be all of these questions over the N125 (The Road of Death - as it sometimes described) being a suitable untolled alternative to the A22.

Weather disgusting here so can only hope it is better for you guys in God's Country.


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## canoeman

"
Finally, an observation, if the A22 were not a special case then one would assume that the tolls would have come on-line at the same time as for the other motorways & there wouldn't be all of these questions over the N125 (The Road of Death - as it sometimes described) being a suitable untolled alternative to the A22."

The ideal would have been for all these new toll roads to go live on the same date, but the 
reality is that work started in North and progressed South, along with a change of Government, start date for other roads was delayed, and the continuing argument, over a start date for A22, the positive news for tourists hiring cars is that 1 company is now fitting "boxes" so hopefully the others will follow suite, so damage of fines being passed on will disappear.


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## Ingles

robc said:


> Canoe, Can I just dig a little deeper on this.
> 
> In essence what you are saying is that when I travel down next week and use the A25 and A13 around Santarem and Torres Novos, should I get photographed using an electronic toll road (as appears most likely) then there is no facility for me to pay the toll as I will be driving a UK registered car.
> 
> Yet when I collect and fit the ViaVerde box, (to the UK registered car), that is hopefully waiting for me when I arrive at destination then using the same roads for the return journey will trigger electronic payments to be made for the same tolls.
> 
> I don't dispute what is being said, I just find it interesting.
> 
> I think I may try a Post Office anyway to see if I can pay the "outbound" tolls.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob


You are NOT allowed to use a VV Box on a Foreign Plate Car 
as the camaras are only set up to read PT Plate Formats


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## canoeman

Ingles said:


> You are NOT allowed to use a VV Box on a Foreign Plate Car
> as the camaras are only set up to read PT Plate Formats


Yes you can, *the VV box is interrogated for tolls not plate*. 

You can have a temporary or permanent VV box.

See VV site or the CTT site


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> Yes you can, *the VV box is interrogated for tolls not plate*.
> 
> You can have a temporary or permanent VV box.
> 
> See VV site or the CTT site


If your info is correct then it's completely contary to Post on another site 

As asked by another poster :- Which Goverment Department do you work for ?


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## canoeman

I don't, but I don't believe in knocking the Goverment at every opputunity either.

The information is on the *ViaVerde* site and the *CTT*, if you'd prefer to believe other poster fine, but you shouldn't confuse issue for others without checking information first.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> I don't, but I don't believe in knocking the Goverment at every opputunity either.
> 
> The information is on the *ViaVerde* site and the *CTT*, if you'd prefer to believe other poster fine, but you shouldn't confuse issue for others without checking information first.


I have the right as a PT Tax Payer to knock any Goverment which is not only to myself & many other ExPats + also to a great many Portugués who classed the last administration as - Incompetent & Corrupt & in complete control of the Judicial System here for there own end's.
And the present Administration only as Incompetent (early day's yet)
You only have to look at the shamble's they have made in introducing these Tolls


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## canoeman

So can you or can't you use a VV box on a UK plated vehicle or any other countries for that matter?

There should be two posts on this matter 
1 to argue the pro & cons of tolls and the competence or incompetence of the Government
2 to provide accurate information on the tolls, how to use them and the way to pay them.

I don't dispute your right to an opinion or to express those opinions but as your not? a Portuguese National, and have no vote in National Elections the knocking should be reserved for the Portuguese themselves.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> So can you or can't you use a VV box on a UK plated vehicle or any other countries for that matter?
> 
> There should be two posts on this matter
> 1 to argue the pro & cons of tolls and the competence or incompetence of the Government
> 2 to provide accurate information on the tolls, how to use them and the way to pay them.
> 
> I don't dispute your right to an opinion or to express those opinions but as your not? a Portuguese National, and have no vote in National Elections the knocking should be reserved for the Portuguese themselves.


:clap2:Final reply - So in your world I can - Live - Work - Pay Tax & IVA - Speak, Read & write Portugues ,but because I'm NOT Portugues I'm supposed to "sit down & shut up"
Oh man! what world do you live in ?
I have to right & so doe's any body else who lives here & I choose to exercise my right to speak out!!!


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## canoeman

But can you use a VV box on a non Portuguese vehicle or would you prefer not to speak out?


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## MrBife

As is often the case there are some misunderstandings about some of this technology and the procedure.

Anyone can apply for a Via Verde device - either on-line or at one of the many appointed sales outlets.

Any vehicle from any country can be registered in the system as long as you have

1) The Vehicle Registration Document
2) Completed Application Form
3) Money to pay for the device
4) A PT Bank account to which the device links to take direct debit payments, the device needs to be activated using a Multibanco machine before it can be used.

The system can and does do numberplate recognition and logging on any type of numberplate - the equipment provider is from Norway and they certainly don't build special cameras for Portuguese plates.

The Portuguese system cannot, at present do reverse lookup on the owner of for example a UK registered number plate - this is for legal reasons and not due to technical inability.

Via Verde devices can be used on both older tollbooth type motorways and on the newer SCUT gantries. 

There exists a FURTHER type of device which is accepted on SCUT roads only, this is a pre paid device and it hasn't been promoted. In time no doubt hire car companies not wishing to use Via Verde will offer one of these as they can be moved between vehicles. The available balance will be shown for each device by logging in to its web page.

As said earlier - all of this info is out there but misunderstandings of it are all too easily perpetuated.


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## canoeman

If you wish to have a Permanent ViaVerde device then as Mr Bife says, you require

1) The Vehicle Registration Document
2) Completed Application Form
3) Money to pay for the device
4) A PT Bank account to which the device links to take direct debit payments, the device needs to be activated using a Multibanco machine before it can be used.

Can be for Portuguese or non Portuguese registered Vehicles

But the Temporary ViaVerde _‘Via Verde Visitors’_ device for Foreign registered cars *does not require * above,_ all you need is an international credit/debit Card issued by a foreign entity_
The Estrade site has recently been updated and present clear information for *Non* Portuguese Cars Portal Tráfego


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## Waterdog

MrBife, thank you for a clear unequivocal post on this issue. You will have laid a number of ghosts & put a lot of minds at rest.

The vehicle specific VV device & the more universal pre paid option (for the motoring tourist who is not a resident & will probably not have a PT bank account) would appear to meet all situations.

That is - provided the pre-paid device is adequately advertised on line & at Portugal’s international borders & is readily available.

Any thoughts you caravaners & motor home owners?


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## moggy666

Has anyone actually been charged, been in and paid, yet for driving on the A23 through the 3 "Active" gates.

I have just spoken with Guerin car hire at Lisbon airport and they have been told the charges on the A23 will *NOT* come into force until Summer 2012. !!!!

lane:


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## canoeman

"Active" gates are on *IC3* at the junction with A23 not the A23 itself


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## siobhanwf

*Another dealine passes.*

Info from The Portugal News:

Successive delays have marked the dreaded introduction of tolls on previously unpaid motorways (SCUT) such as the Algarve’s A22. The Economy Minister had said in September that motorists would be paying to use SCUT motorways “by no later than October.” But Minister Alváro Santos Pereira appears to now have jumped the gun, as this decision no longer lies with the Government, but with the President, whose opposition of some of the cabinet’s austerity measures has mounted in recent weeks. Shortly after being contacted by The Portugal News over its position on SCUT motorways, the President’s office released a statement saying it had asked the Government to clarify the decree regulating the introduction of tolls.

To read the article in full:
Another toll deadline passes


----------

