# Implications of running on-line & teaching business part-year in Spain?



## Esinem (Dec 17, 2013)

I run an on-line shop (my own, plus Amazon & eBay) and also training for small groups. Given the low price and standard of living in Costa de la Luz, I was wondering about working part of the year there. 

I think it could work. My students don't require luxury, so teaching space could easily double as a dorm and a couple of spare rooms could provide an upgrade. I'm confident such a learning environment would prove to be a draw. Obviously, the online business can be run from anywhere with a decent internet connection (would that be reasonable somewhere like Conil or Chiclana?) and access to post/couriers.

My questions are:

Would a residential course be classed as letting for tax purposes?

Given that payments would be on-line, would I just make UK tax returns or do I pay Spanish tax an offset it? Does it depend where I ship from?

I stay below UK VAT thresholds. Would Spanish sales tax be an issue?

Is there any equivalent to the Royal Mail's Online Business Account that allows one to print out post paid labels? I hear there are pre-paid envelopes or labels for small packages (mine are mainly under 2kg and sent worldwide). Is that the way forward?

Any suggestions for couriers for packages 2-30kg? The only ones I have found seem very expensive compared to UK, where I use an online broker (Interparcel)

What are labour costs like for things like exterior decoration? I can't help noticing most things seems to be painted white from top to tail and imagine it could be a pricey job. Does this need doing often?

Given I'd be absent for months at a time, would I be mad to have anything with a garden? I'm not drawn to communal gardens so I'm wondering if tiles or as nature intended is the way to go?

Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to engage brain before heart. I'm sure this is only the start  Any thoughts much appreciated.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Esinem said:


> I run an on-line shop (my own, plus Amazon & eBay) and also training for small groups. Given the low price and standard of living in Costa de la Luz, I was wondering about working part of the year there.
> 
> I think it could work. My students don't require luxury, so teaching space could easily double as a dorm and a couple of spare rooms could provide an upgrade. I'm confident such a learning environment would prove to be a draw. Obviously, the online business can be run from anywhere with a decent internet connection (would that be reasonable somewhere like Conil or Chiclana?) and access to post/couriers.
> 
> ...


:welcome:
several points - I'll answer the couple that I am able to, as far as I can

you will be working & living in Spain, so subject to making tax returns here - whether that means _paying _tax is another matter - it depends upon the difference in tax thresholds/liabilities between Spain & the UK....... an agreement means that you don't pay _the same tax _twice - but there might be different taxes to pay. 

I don't know if running residential courses counts as letting (though I suspect it might) - but if you're using the premises for classes you would for sure have to register as some kind of educational institution, with licences & insurance, as a minimum


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Esinem said:


> Given I'd be absent for months at a time, would I be mad to have anything with a garden? I'm not drawn to communal gardens so I'm wondering if tiles or as nature intended is the way to go?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to engage brain before heart. I'm sure this is only the start  Any thoughts much appreciated.


In answer to the garden I'd say don't get a garden that needs weeding or watering - absolutely no grass! In the summer, which is a longer season than in the UK don't foget it will get scorched and will turn to straw. Here, (Madrid) that is classified as a fire risk and you are obliged to cut it down. Apart from anything else, it will look awful. I'd get something with tiles/ stone, buy lots of big pots, and fill them with flowers when you come over.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Esinem said:


> Would a residential course be classed as letting for tax purposes?
> 
> Given that payments would be on-line, would I just make UK tax returns or do I pay Spanish tax an offset it? Does it depend where I ship from?
> 
> ...


The course? I'd expect that to be a course. I'd worry about other issues. Running a dorm is more complicated then throwing a few pillows on the ground for your friends. Health and safety,fire laws etc will all likely be more of a hassle then figuring out the taxes.

There is an EU level law on VAT. It was changed a bit back but if you search the EU website you should find the new rules. What matters is the location of the buyer. NB this is just for VAT and not income tax.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Plus there is no IVA (VAT) threshold. You have to register.Then there would be social security payments circa 273€/month.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Your standard of living will depend on your financial resources whether on the CdL or Bognor Regis.
Many British immigrants of working age are actually experiencing a lower, more stressful standard of life here than they would in the UK.
Sunshine and lovely scenery do not, alas, put a roof over your head or food on the table.
Western Andalucia is one of the worst hit regions with staggeringly high unemployment figures of over 35%, more in some towns and villages.
A couple of days ago a cashier in an almost empty supermarket near our village remarked on how little people are spending this year.
Times are hard.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

If your business is run from the UK, and you are non-resident in Spain (even though you may spend up to 6 months a year on holiday), why not just rent space from a local language school or office? There may also be coworking spaces (like here in Madrid) that can offer good deals for separate rooms. That way you can make sure you only spend when you have paying customers, and the local enterprises will take care of insurance, heating, cleaning etc.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> If your business is run from the UK, and you are non-resident in Spain (even though you may spend up to 6 months a year on holiday), why not just rent space from a local language school or office? There may also be coworking spaces (like here in Madrid) that can offer good deals for separate rooms. That way you can make sure you only spend when you have paying customers, and the local enterprises will take care of insurance, heating, cleaning etc.


The coworking offices in my local town don't rent for hours, nor are they set up for classes. It was very expensive when I inquired


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The coworking offices in my local town don't rent for hours, nor are they set up for classes. It was very expensive when I inquired


Well there are obviously different ways of dong this. The Co-working spot near to us has various options, including renting of a conference room including web for 20 per hour (if you have 7 or 8 attending not too bad I feel)

Coworking Centro de Madrid - Colabora / espacio de coworking y punto de encuentro para profesionales en Madrid

I know one or two other spots in central Madrid that will rent out similar for 15 per hour.
Of course the better option may be to approach language schools that are not fully utilised. I'd guess that many would bite your hand off if you booked a room for between 4 and 7 hours per day.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> Well there are obviously different ways of dong this. The Co-working spot near to us has various options, including renting of a conference room including web for 20 per hour (if you have 7 or 8 attending not too bad I feel)
> 
> Coworking Centro de Madrid - Colabora / espacio de coworking y punto de encuentro para profesionales en Madrid
> 
> ...


That looks great!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

webmarcos said:


> If your business is run from the UK, and you are non-resident in Spain (even though you may spend up to 6 months a year on holiday), why not just rent space from a local language school or office? There may also be coworking spaces (like here in Madrid) that can offer good deals for separate rooms. That way you can make sure you only spend when you have paying customers, and the local enterprises will take care of insurance, heating, cleaning etc.


Yes , but the OP wouldn't be "on holiday" if working ? 
Then you have to ask " where is the point of sale ?" 
Where they paid , possibly in the UK or where the service was supplied , Spain ? 
+they want to ship items up to 30kgs from Spain , so it could all get a bit involved & messy !


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes , but the OP wouldn't be "on holiday" if working ?
> Then you have to ask " where is the point of sale ?"
> Where they paid , possibly in the UK or where the service was supplied , Spain ?
> +they want to ship items up to 30kgs from Spain , so it could all get a bit involved & messy !


exactly

if he was purely working online he 'might get away with' claiming to be on holiday & 'keeping an eye' on things back home

but he's shipping things from Spain & wanting to actually run some kind of course

there's no way he could claim to be here on holiday by any stretch of the imagination - 

& from his post that wasn't his intention in any case


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> exactly
> 
> if he was purely working online he 'might get away with' claiming to be on holiday & 'keeping an eye' on things back home
> 
> ...


As I mentioned he could team up with a local language school (or anyone with office space to spare). The local taxes get paid, the things get shipped to the school, empty rooms get utilised and both sides benefit.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> As I mentioned he could team up with a local language school (or anyone with office space to spare). The local taxes get paid, the things get shipped to the school, empty rooms get utilised and both sides benefit.


well, yes - but the tax implications for the OP are still complicated

& we don't actually yet know what is being taught


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## Esinem (Dec 17, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> well, yes - but the tax implications for the OP are still complicated
> 
> & we don't actually yet know what is being taught


Thanks for all your input. The idea of using classrooms belonging to a school, gym, yoga or business centre is smart but doesn't solve their accommodation problem. However, for some courses suspension points suitable for aerial work are required so that's more problematic. Most of my students would be international and staying for 2-5 days. Anything from one couple to 12. Maybe do a deal with some local hotel/camp site?

I was hoping nobody would ask what I teach  As it happens, it's kinbaku (Japanese rope bondage. Google Esinem if you really want to know). Of course, I appreciate not every establishment is comfortable hosting such events, although it's no more intimate than a Tango class. I am I likely to get run out of town on a rail? :-D Should I say I teach circus skills or kinesthetic techniques ;-)

I'm beginning to think it might be better to sub contract my shipping to a friend here in the UK. He needs cash and a place to live. I'd have more leisure time to enjoy Spain and someone keeping an eye on my London home. It also seems couriers in Spain are way dearer than UK. Win, win.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Esinem said:


> Thanks for all your input. The idea of using classrooms belonging to a school, gym, yoga or business centre is smart but doesn't solve their accommodation problem. However, for some courses suspension points suitable for aerial work are required so that's more problematic. Most of my students would be international and staying for 2-5 days. Anything from one couple to 12. Maybe do a deal with some local hotel/camp site?
> 
> I was hoping nobody would ask what I teach  As it happens, it's kinbaku (Japanese rope bondage. Google Esinem if you really want to know). Of course, I appreciate not every establishment is comfortable hosting such events, although it's no more intimate than a Tango class. I am I likely to get run out of town on a rail? :-D Should I say I teach circus skills or kinesthetic techniques ;-)
> 
> I'm beginning to think it might be better to sub contract my shipping to a friend here in the UK. He needs cash and a place to live. I'd have more leisure time to enjoy Spain and someone keeping an eye on my London home. It also seems couriers in Spain are way dearer than UK. Win, win.


even sub-contracting the shipping won't change your obligations as far as tax returns/paying income tax/social security here in Spain are concerened if you're running any kind of classes/residential course at all


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## Esinem (Dec 17, 2013)

I mean that he'd be running the on-line sales side entirely. However, I appreciate that courses would be taxable. 

I have to say that having read a few posts about cost of running a place and the gloomy outlook for the property market, I might be better off renting. From the sound of it, it should be possible to rent for a couple of months at a time for peanuts in this climate? Either way, it seems best to do this to test the water as somebody summed it up "Spanish property is like tattoos. Easy to come by but very hard to get rid of". To which I'd add, often obtained in a flush of heart rather than head-driven enthusiasm 

PS Where would one look for rental bargains?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Esinem said:


> PS Where would one look for rental bargains?


Anywhere, literally.
even the bank house sale businesses will rent the majority of places.


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