# Some of my observations over the past year and a half of being in mexico



## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

There are two classes of drivers here.

One is very courteous. They feel how you treat the other driver will come back to them in the future. 

The other has a belief that it is a sin to have a car in front of them. They must always be ahead. They also have a mantra that says they are not to steer a car but aim it.

There is a standard facial expression on most all you meet down here. It’s a smile. You walk into a restaurant and find that all the tables are taken. Then someone says that they have an empty seat or two and would you like to join them. 

Manana does not mean tomorrow. It means at another time. Maybe tomorrow or the next day.

And an appointment time is always +/- and hour or so. But not to the medical profession. They expect you to be on time and you get taken with very little wait.

Even though the cost of cell phones is very expensive here, you almost never see a young person without one in their ear. 

When you park your car in a parking lot be prepared to fight off the car wash, wiper blades, fix the scratch, carry your packages, etc. people. 

I always must remember that the average wage is about $40mx an hour ($3.48 US) and tips are not just nice but really expected in most cases.

Then there are the people that you almost run over at the intersection when they try to wash your window, get a donation or hand you a flyer.

And we must remember the driving hazards called “topes” which translates in English as caps but really means ‘you’d better stop if you value your car and your head’.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

You are right about the car drivers, they always lead and hardly ever follow. My wife is one of them when she leaves town.
In my area of the country they rarely expect tips for anything. I give the gas station guys 5 or 10 pesos, most locals do not. I also give the chimacos at the grocery store 5 pesos for bagging groceries but sometimes I have to call them back to give it to them. Waiters are thrilled to see 10% since many times it is far less, sometimes nothing. And that is the total extent of tipping in my area.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Average wage*

I agree with most, if not all you have observed except the average hourly wage for most non professionals is closer to $1100 pesos per week for up to 50 to 55 hours a week usually 5 1/2 days which is about $20.00 to $25.00 pesos an hour. They would be delighted to make $40.00 pesos per hour especially in a hard factory or construction job. Most women store clerks make only about $850.00 to $1,000 pesos a week take home for 5 1/2 days usually 9 or10 hours a day and don't get tips [about $17.00 pesos per hr.]. Women in factories get usually the same and men in factories usually $1,100 to $1,200 take home per week [ about $20.00 to $23.00/hr.]. 

Construction skilled laborers get about $250.00 to $300.00 pesos per day for usually 9 or 10 hours which is only about $27.00 pesos per hour. This might vary from location to location. I have friends with maids and they usually are willing to start working for as low as $12.00 per hour plus 2 meals. These are all take home pay and I find it hard to believe myself, but did you ever wonder why when you go into a store there are so many clerks? Ever wonder why on a construction site for a house they have usually 8 or more workers? A busy restaurant has 15 people working there? A large Pemex gasolinera has sometimes 10 guys milling around, not only do they do this for security but because it costs very little of the profit. Also if a few don't show up for work it is no big deal. If someone has to take a few hour off for family matters etc. or even a week someone else can cover. I am told most small businesses pay the weekly rate of pay even if you miss a few hours or more on occasion a week, sort of a flat rate and really don't expect the whole 50 or 55 hours work out of their employees. That is why you will see many chatting together and the owner approves of this as too many employees is the norm and business gets done anyway.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> I agree with most, if not all you have observed except the average hourly wage for most non professionals is closer to $1100 pesos per week for up to 50 to 55 hours a week usually 5 1/2 days which is about $20.00 to $25.00 pesos an hour. They would be delighted to make $40.00 pesos per hour especially in a hard factory or construction job. Most women store clerks make only about $850.00 to $1,000 pesos a week take home for 5 1/2 days usually 9 or10 hours a day and don't get tips [about $17.00 pesos per hr.]. Women in factories get usually the same and men in factories usually $1,100 to $1,200 take home per week [ about $20.00 to $23.00/hr.].
> 
> Construction skilled laborers get about $250.00 to $300.00 pesos per day for usually 9 or 10 hours which is only about $27.00 pesos per hour. This might vary from location to location. I have friends with maids and they usually are willing to start working for as low as $12.00 per hour plus 2 meals. These are all take home pay and I find it hard to believe myself, but did you ever wonder why when you go into a store there are so many clerks? Ever wonder why on a construction site for a house they have usually 8 or more workers? A busy restaurant has 15 people working there? A large Pemex gasolinera has sometimes 10 guys milling around, not only do they do this for security but because it costs very little of the profit. Also if a few don't show up for work it is no big deal. If someone has to take a few hour off for family matters etc. or even a week someone else can cover. I am told most small businesses pay the weekly rate of pay even if you miss a few hours or more on occasion a week, sort of a flat rate and really don't expect the whole 50 or 55 hours work out of their employees. That is why you will see many chatting together and the owner approves of this as too many employees is the norm and business gets done anyway.


According to bloomberg.com the current minimum wage in Mexico City is $57.46mx per day and in Jalisco it's $54.57mx per day. Now I have questioned a few businesses and I've been told that they take the daily wage and divide it by 8 to get the hourly wage and then multiply it by the number of hours worked. They normally do not dock a worker for a few hours off and the normally don't pay the base minimum after the worker has been with them for a specific length of time.
That still equals about $7.18mx per hour. 

What ever the actual amount paid is I don't think many of us can argue that it is far lower than the minimum in the states. And yet they are able to feed and cloth their families. Yes their lifestyles are very different from what we were used to NOB but a large number of them are able to still smile and succeed. I guess that's why I feel compelled to tip.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Minimun wage*



pappabee said:


> According to bloomberg.com the current minimum wage in Mexico City is $57.46mx per day and in Jalisco it's $54.57mx per day. Now I have questioned a few businesses and I've been told that they take the daily wage and divide it by 8 to get the hourly wage and then multiply it by the number of hours worked. They normally do not dock a worker for a few hours off and the normally don't pay the base minimum after the worker has been with them for a specific length of time.
> That still equals about $7.18mx per hour.
> 
> What ever the actual amount paid is I don't think many of us can argue that it is far lower than the minimum in the states. And yet they are able to feed and cloth their families. Yes their lifestyles are very different from what we were used to NOB but a large number of them are able to still smile and succeed. I guess that's why I feel compelled to tip.



The problem here is you have to be able to chat extensively with the workers and owners who you have know for a long time to get the inside scoop on these kinds of injustices in all parts of Mexico [unbridled pride is more important when dealing with strangers]. Minimum wage at $56.00/day x 5= $280.00 for 5 days work at 8 hours a day in Mexico. ..$7.18 pesos per hour is the same as a tiny bag of corn chips. It is realistic to conclude most workers make at least $20.00 pesos per hour which is a meal at the street vendors.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> The problem here is you have to be able to chat extensively with the workers and owners who you have know for a long time to get the inside scoop on these kinds of injustices in all parts of Mexico [unbridled pride is more important when dealing with strangers]. Minimum wage at $56.00/day x 5= $280.00 for 5 days work at 8 hours a day in Mexico. ..$7.18 pesos per hour is the same as a tiny bag of corn chips. It is realistic to conclude most workers make at least $20.00 pesos per hour which is a meal at the street vendors.


I agree and that is why we pay our workers $40mx to $50mx for 4 hours. (this is what they have requested - we also pay them if we don't have work for them and tell them to stay home)

And since the minimum federal wage in the US is $7.50us per hour it makes sense for people to try to get into the US. But since the crash of the construction industry there have been fewer and fewer minimum wage jobs and a lot of workers have returned to their homes in Mexico. Even $20.00mx per hour is better than nothing.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Workers*



pappabee said:


> I agree and that is why we pay our workers $40mx to $50mx for 4 hours. (this is what they have requested - we also pay them if we don't have work for them and tell them to stay home)
> 
> And since the minimum federal wage in the US is $7.50us per hour it makes sense for people to try to get into the US. But since the crash of the construction industry there have been fewer and fewer minimum wage jobs and a lot of workers have returned to their homes in Mexico. Even $20.00mx per hour is better than nothing.


I have often wondered how much the workers get paid in the towns I drive through as everything is less expensive, especially rent or property, I presume. These average wages I quoted are from very large industrial cities, Tijuana, Mexicali and San Luis Potosi. Not even a good gardener that you need will work for less than 100 pesos for 5 hours work. At guy who comes by the house and wants to do a job on your yard or detail the cars will get $40.00 pesos for 4 hours and work slow and probably sloppy, that is the minimum you can pay for a job in these place, I think.


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## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

Minimum wage is more of a statistical tool to define wages and scale applications in Mexico. As for example a fine for running a red light= 20 x minimum wage. 

The current wage for the lowest earners within the Mexican Social Security System is somewhat short of 4000 pesos per month, plus about 25% of assorted benefits. The underground economy pays considerably less. The countryside pays its uninsured farm helpers even less. Experienced tradesman anywhere will expect at least 2 to 4 times minimum wage.

Middle class in Mexico is anything above 7000 pesos per month (Don`t just take my word for that) and it is amazing what Mexican families with usually only one wage earner, accomplish with that.

Comparing US earnings and Mexican earnings is akin to apples and oranges. There are just too many intangibles to make an accurate comparison. 

A 40 thousand peso a month Mexican executive probably lives a lot better than a 15 thousand dollar US executive, and the same probably holds true for a measly paid Mexican shop clerk, compared to a minimum wage Walmart worker. 

Of course, the ones with any monetary sense, head to the US to increase their earnings power (currently about 20% of Mexican Phd's plus your ex gardeners).


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2011)

A few things I have observed:

-in my area, most taxi drivers rent their taxi instead of owning it. $500 for the day shift, $400 for the evening shift, $250 for the overnight shift. A taxista that hustles and doesn't sit somewhere in the shade gossiping while waiting at the end of a line of taxis will make $200 to $400 a shift (maybe $1000 on a busy Saturday) after his rent and gas expense. Local taxi fares here are 20-30 pesos.

- Many of the taxi owners are doñas sitting in their homes, and they own more than one taxi. They make their living by renting out the taxis. (she not only made the investment in the car, but she also owns a taxi medallion issued by the municipality which costs many times more than the car. The medallion (permiso) is transferable to another replacement car). A son or son-in-law will drive one of her taxis, but also make sure that the other taxis she owns are kept in running order, and collects the rents.

-in a larger industrial business, the lowest people on the totem pole (shift workers) take home $900 to $1100 a week. These are usually young people in their first or second job, and still live with their parents. Most will first come to work as a temp worker for an employment company, and become a regular company employee after 3-6 months working at that company (similar to a probation phase). If they don't work out at that company, the company isn't liable for severance payments, they are just moved to another company by the temp agency.

A shift supervisor in the same business will make between $6000 and $9,000 a month, and will typically have 5 yrs + experience at that company. The business ends up paying another 45% on top of their take-home pay in benefits and taxes. Larger companies in my industry typically also provided meals to their employees in an onsite cafeteria. We also had an onsite physician with office hours every morning for any employee.

-baggers in WalMart/Aurrera and similar big box stores in MX are not store employees - they are there working for tips only. I usually give them 10 pesos on a weekly grocery run. The people working in the meat departments work on commission, which explains their occasional aggressiveness with nearby customers.

-many people here don't keep a lot of money in the bank. As soon as they save up enough money, they go out and buy (for cash or through Infonovit) a piece of land or another house. That is their retirement plan - living in a paid for house, and collecting rent on their other houses for their living expenses. Many MX families here also have more than one bread winner per household, and more than two generations living under the same roof. If they do receive a pension at retirement, it usually isn't enough to cover groceries every month.

-Most Mexicans don't have a mortgage payment - somewhere I read that only 6% of houses here have a mortgage. Homes here are inherited, built by the owner or bought for cash.

-in my area, there are several small villages/areas where there are no working age men, just women, kids and old people. All of their men are up north working and sending home money, while their wife works or has a small business here.

-renting houses is a tough business in MX. If the tenant quits paying the rent, it's tough to get them out quickly. If they do a midnight move-out, it's quite common that they will also take along the switchplates, the lightbulbs, the medicine cabinet, and maybe the bathroom fixtures and wooden doors. 

I have also witnessed an embargo, where the local police and an attorney show up early in the morning, wait for the resident to emerge and then proceed to take all of their possessions, AND the switchplates, the lightbulbs, the house numbers on the wall, etc. They can not forcibly enter an embargoed house unless the door is open. The police cart off all of the seized possessions to somewhere until a final judgement is issued and then an auction is held to repay either the house's owner or a tax bill, or a bank. (have you paid your Predial for this year?? )

- if someone says "mañana" to you, it usually means they are too nice to tell you "no" and they don't want to hurt your feelings. If you persist, they will eventually do it. I came here from another Latin American country where "ahorita" is the equivalent of "mañana" here. Here in MX, "ahorita" usually means "right damn now". (I had trouble with this in the beginning of my work here - someone would say "ahorita" and I would say "OK, I'll be in my office when you're ready", and they would follow me there. )

- people here are nice and friendly, and very courteous. The only exceptions that I've witnessed to this have been in one of two situations: 1) on a bus, when the bus is about 200 meters from its destination, EVERYONE sitting near the rear of the bus wants to pile up the aisle struggling to be the first one off, or 2) in front of a popular late night taco stand, they will sometimes turn into a mass of pushing, starving crazies and there is no concept of a line. Once they get their food, they will stand to the side eating, and then go back for more. The best thing to do is to join in, or you will go hungry!!

I really enjoy my corner of MX, and have no plans to ever leave.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

After a decade, we finally achieved 'Inmigrante' status yesterday. Next year, we'll become permanent residents and no longer have to deal with INM. We're here for good and it is a great feeling.


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## DNP (May 3, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> After a decade, we finally achieved 'Inmigrante' status yesterday. Next year, we'll become permanent residents and no longer have to deal with INM. We're here for good and it is a great feeling.


Congratulations!


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## m55vette (May 21, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> After a decade, we finally achieved 'Inmigrante' status yesterday. Next year, we'll become permanent residents and no longer have to deal with INM. We're here for good and it is a great feeling.


Congratulations!


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> After a decade, we finally achieved 'Inmigrante' status yesterday. Next year, we'll become permanent residents and no longer have to deal with INM. We're here for good and it is a great feeling.


Well it's about time you started taking your living here seriously.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Actually, we took it seriously many years ago, when some folks were able to gain citizenship after five years on an FM3. Two months before we were eligible, they changed the policy and required five years on an FM2. So, we gave up that idea and just coasted along on the FM3 and, more recently, the 'no inmigrante' status. Now, with the new law coming into effect before we have to renew in 2012, it is to our advantage to become 'inmigrante' now and then get permanent residency next year, as our previous residency will be counted. The change of status also corrected an error in the dates on one of our visas from last year, which INM wasn't anxious to correct because someone might have had to explain the errors; which involved an agent reading numbers upside down, making six mysteriously become nine, etc. Lots of people were affected. Otherwise, with a normal renewal, my wife and I would have become separated in time, having to renew in June and September; rather than at the same time each year. It is all to the good.


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## edenmayne (May 14, 2011)

Well the only thing I have to offer I wished the wages were what people seem to think are.... my friend gets between 700 - 800 pesos a week and thats if he can find work that week....


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Pay scale*



edenmayne said:


> Well the only thing I have to offer I wished the wages were what people seem to think are.... my friend gets between 700 - 800 pesos a week and thats if he can find work that week....


Actually this thread is quite accurate in disclosing the average wages here in Mexico. There are always exceptions to the average, I presume. Do you have more details?


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

You really need to start differentiating between full time declared work with benefits, part time off the books and contracted labor. My understanding is that full time employment in factories here starts about 1000p for five eight hour days and goes up from there. The big deal is that the overhead per employee is double or more the US. This is why companies often use employment agencies to supply people during probationary period as very costly to let someone go. Part time people here typically get 30-35p/hour. Contract seems to be 150p/day for worker and double that for skilled person.


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## Mexico Babe (Aug 1, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> After a decade, we finally achieved 'Inmigrante' status yesterday. Next year, we'll become permanent residents and no longer have to deal with INM. We're here for good and it is a great feeling.


I've wondered about this. does it mean you have given up your usa citizenship? also, should you become incompacitated and needed a nursing home to live in, what will you do? I am asking for our own future referances. Thanks Diane


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2011)

Mexico Babe said:


> I've wondered about this. does it mean you have given up your usa citizenship? also, should you become incompacitated and needed a nursing home to live in, what will you do? I am asking for our own future referances. Thanks Diane



This just means that a non-citizen has the permanent right to live in MX, it has nothing to do with giving up their US citizenship.

And when I get old, if given the choice between going into a deathtrap old age home in the US for $5k or more per month where they will keep me on life support to continue the Medicare payments, or staying in MX and paying several nurses a few hundred $$ per month to give me sponge baths and feed me, and have a doctor come to my home when needed until I meet my end, what's the decision?


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## Mexico Babe (Aug 1, 2011)

GringoCArlos said:


> This just means that a non-citizen has the permanent right to live in MX, it has nothing to do with giving up their US citizenship.
> 
> And when I get old, if given the choice between going into a deathtrap old age home in the US for $5k or more per month where they will keep me on life support to continue the Medicare payments, or staying in MX and paying several nurses a few hundred $$ per month to give me sponge baths and feed me, and have a doctor come to my home when needed until I meet my end, what's the decision?


Thank you kind sir. I had wondered what we would do, but your plan sounds perfect!!


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

GringoCArlos said:


> or staying in MX and paying several nurses a few hundred $$ per month to give me sponge baths and feed me, and have a doctor come to my home when needed until I meet my end, what's the decision?


This actually sounds pretty good right now...and I'm only 32 and not sick. Where do I sign up?

My Grandmother is in a nursing home in Maine. I love her dearly, but hate the home. It has the atmosphere of a funeral parlor and the smell of one as well. Probably the same amount of flowers to boot.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

We had thought about elderly care for a long time as we had planned to retire outside the US.
Since location at the time unknown, we opted to put in place a Long Term Care policy that had three key characteristics-a bucket of dollars versus coverage period, ability to use via home care versus facility and ability to use outside the US.
Given Mexico rates, this would last a long time but unless serious medical care required, we could easily do out of pocket in Mexico. The other option is like a facility outside San Miguel that has both town homes with medical coverage as well as an assisted living facility.
In hind sight, all three would work for us.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Gnp*



conklinwh said:


> We had thought about elderly care for a long time as we had planned to retire outside the US.
> Since location at the time unknown, we opted to put in place a Long Term Care policy that had three key characteristics-a bucket of dollars versus coverage period, ability to use via home care versus facility and ability to use outside the US.
> Given Mexico rates, this would last a long time but unless serious medical care required, we could easily do out of pocket in Mexico. The other option is like a facility outside San Miguel that has both town homes with medical coverage as well as an assisted living facility.
> In hind sight, all three would work for us.



Another thought is GNP a deep pocket medical plan in Mexico that costs $1,200.00 US per year [paid yearly in US funds] and includes private hospitals, listed on their portfolio, cancer treatment, open heart surgery, hip replacement, etc. but does not include non acute medical issues Dr. or hospital visits or cosmetic surgery etc.. A broken leg or respiratory infections etc. would be included etc.

http://www.gnp.com.mx/gnp/clientes.nsf/fraHome?OpenFrameset


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## JBY (May 17, 2011)

Amigos !


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

GringoCarlos has answered the question fully. Sorry for my absence, but we still have no Telmex service at home, since the copper thieves hit our area and the Telmex repair guys seem to be on strike. It has been over two weeks, with no end in sight, and I only visit a friend's computer to go online once or twice a week.


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## el confederado (Jan 1, 2011)

I have to agree with JBY. Amigos! I like the fact that in Mexico people take the time to get together on a regular basis and enjoy each others company. Life NOB was so isolating that I had almost forgotten what it was like to have a social life and genuine human contact.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> GringoCarlos has answered the question fully. Sorry for my absence, but we still have no Telmex service at home, since the copper thieves hit our area and the Telmex repair guys seem to be on strike. It has been over two weeks, with no end in sight, and I only visit a friend's computer to go online once or twice a week.


Sorry to hear that news. Time for TelMex fiber optic service ($$$) or wireless, and a Neighborhood Watch committee.  The thieves have strong motivation with copper over $4 a pound, and perhaps a ready market to your south (Santa Clara?)


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## heather.agustin (Aug 5, 2011)

Can anyone tell me how long you have to be in Mexico before you can change your status? I am married to a Mexican national and we are going to move to mexico in the next month. We were married in the U.S. do we have to get married in mexico so i can be allowed to stay? and am not sure how i have to go about being able to stay there longer than the 6 months allotted by the visa? anyone have any suggestions?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Married in Mexico*



heather.agustin said:


> Can anyone tell me how long you have to be in Mexico before you can change your status? I am married to a Mexican national and we are going to move to mexico in the next month. We were married in the U.S. do we have to get married in mexico so i can be allowed to stay? and am not sure how i have to go about being able to stay there longer than the 6 months allotted by the visa? anyone have any suggestions?


You don't need to be married in Mexico. Mexico recognizes any legal marriage. You can get information from the Mexican Immigration website about how the register your marriage with them.

Inicio - Instituto Nacional de Migración


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## dstan (Nov 24, 2008)

RVGRINGO said:


> Actually, we took it seriously many years ago, when some folks were able to gain citizenship after five years on an FM3. Two months before we were eligible, they changed the policy and required five years on an FM2. So, we gave up that idea and just coasted along on the FM3 and, more recently, the 'no inmigrante' status. Now, with the new law coming into effect before we have to renew in 2012, it is to our advantage to become 'inmigrante' now and then get permanent residency next year, as our previous residency will be counted. The change of status also corrected an error in the dates on one of our visas from last year, which INM wasn't anxious to correct because someone might have had to explain the errors; which involved an agent reading numbers upside down, making six mysteriously become nine, etc. Lots of people were affected. Otherwise, with a normal renewal, my wife and I would have become separated in time, having to renew in June and September; rather than at the same time each year. It is all to the good.


You mentioned the "new laws coming into effect". What are they?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Here's the link to them: DOF - Diario Oficial de la Federación
It is, of course, in Spanish, but you may be able to make sense of a Google translation. 
However, the actual implementation of the developing new rules and procedures won't be available on the INM websites for another two or three months, so keep looking there.

As it is now, the FM numbers have given way to 'inmigrante' and 'no inmigrante' visas. Under the new law, those two will merge into one type of visa with various 'caractaristicas', probably similar to those that existed before, but fewer in number and with easier qualifications for some. Time will tell.


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