# renouncing, 8854 and identification number



## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

Hi all,

Looking for some advice.
I am an accidental American being born in the UK and never having lived in the states.
I have only just become aware of the minefield regarding US taxes. 
I am intending to renounce this year.

I am under the threshold for filing 1404 income returns forms with IRS and hence was planning on only back filing the last 4 years FBARs, and 2017 FBAR on time before renouncing early this year.

My query is, with completing the final 8854 form post renouncing, what do I use as a US tax identification number as requested by the form?
I have a social security number currently but I assume once I renounce, this will no longer be valid.
I am aware that I can apply using form w7 for a tax identification number but as far as I am aware, this form has to be sent back with the 1040 forms to the IRS address yet I am under the threshold to file, hence did not want to get involved with the IRS at all.
I was intending on sending the completed 8854 form to the treasury address in Phili and nothing to the IRS.

If anyone can shed a light on this I would be most grateful.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

You can use the social security number. I believe it is still valid after you renounce.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Your US social security number is valid for life once granted. So yes, use your US SS for any filings you may do.

OTOH, if you've never filed and weren't required to file, you could go ahead with the renunciation (if that's what you want to do) and just wait to see if and when they say anything about the taxes. A friend of mine was in a situation where she simply didn't have to file for the last several years and is now awaiting receipt of her CLN with nothing ever having been said about the taxes. (There is a question somewhere are "are you up to date with your taxes?" but since she didn't have sufficient income to have to file, the answer was "yes.")
Cheers,
Bev


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## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks for the response.
I just assumed that since I would no longer be a US citizen by the time I am completing the 8854 form, having already renounced, that the social security number would no longer be valid.
It would be great if that was not the case.


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## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks Bev, 
Yes, I am below the threshold for filing the tax returns 1040 forms so I can ignore those but am above the threshold for declaring for the FBAR's.
The FBAR's appear to be more straightforward at least so won't be too much trouble to submit them, renounce without filing the 1040's for the last 5 years then just do the final 8854.

Want to get out now whilst things are relatively simple with regard to having little to no income.
Just horrified at the hoops people have to jump through even though they have no ties financial or otherwise with the US and can't see it changing anytime soon.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I wouldn't worry about the 8854. I don't think my friend bothered with it. But do what lets you sleep at night.

The only real hassle is the cost of renouncing - but as long as you have no ties to the US, it shouldn't be a problem
Cheers,
Bev


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## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

you hit the nail on the head with whatever lets me sleep at night! 
I am a worrier, and the first to admit it!

Thanks again very much for your replies


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm a big fan of non-compliance and never paying a dime to the US, but in this case, once you've forked over the money to renounce, your affairs are so simple that it makes sense to just file the FBARs and the 8854 and be done with it. If you were facing five years of expensive, complex tax compliance I'd say b*gger that and just buy the CLN, but your paperwork sounds very straightforward so why not make a clean exit from the US tax system?


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## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

That's what I'm hoping for - no need to file 1040's as below threshold, just leaving me with the FBAR's which aren't too difficult to backfile and that's me done, bar the 8854 later on. 
By doing the above, I will be able to certify that I have been 5 years tax compliant and hence, should be released from the US financial system obligations once I am no longer a citizen.

Don't yet owe a dime so planning on getting out whilst that is still the case, even though it is a drastic means to an end!


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Indeed. And in your case, don't beat yourself up trying to get exact figures together. Estimate a bit high on your FBARs and write in whatever you need to write in on the 8854 and that's that - you won't owe any money so perfect accuracy isn't really necessary.


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## celticweb (Mar 26, 2016)

sleepymum said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Looking for some advice.
> I am an accidental American being born in the UK and never having lived in the states.
> .


I am accidental American also that renounced in 2016 and only other thing I will add to this discussion is that one needs to show evidence of US citizenship to renounce. I was born in the USA to UK parents and lived there as a child so had an expired passport. documents requested are (taken from the email I received)

Evidence of U.S. Citizenship (such as your most recent U.S. passport or U.S. birth certificate, if you are not in possession of your U.S. passport)

2. U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad (if applicable) 

You mention born in the UK, did you ever have a US passport? You could also ignore everything as no way they will ever know you are a US citizen but as you said since your circumstances are simple and for peace of mind. However you will need to prove you are a US citizen to renounce.

Other than that the renunciation process was relatively straight forward and the embassy staff very helpful.


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## sleepymum (Jan 3, 2018)

Thanks for the message and the thought re: proving US citizenship. 
Yes, have us passport and ss number so should be straightforward enough. 

Its good to know the embassy staff were helpful though


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

The staff at the US Embassy/Consulate have every reason to be helpful to those looking to renounce. State Department funding and staffing level have been cut to really unsustainable levels and I have yet to hear of anyone renouncing lately who has been given the slightest hassle about the process. I suspect the Embassy staffers may be a bit disgruntled with their employer, themselves, but aren't ready to ditch their source of financial remuneration and legal right to remain in the country in which they have settled.

My friend in Germany who just recently renounced (still waiting for the CLN) reported that the Consulate staff was completely pleasant and helpful. And, on her way to the Consulate from the tram stop, she just happened to bump into a couple other folks with appointments to renounce around the same time - and they formed quite a jolly group. Grumbled about the outrageous cost, but all in all I think the folks she met were looking forward to it.
Cheers,
Bev


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