# I don't get it



## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

There were a record number of mass layoffs in the US last week, and we have lost millions of jobs over the last four or five months. Yet we continue to get posts from people who seem to think that there are a lot of jobs available in the US. I don't understand that.

And I'd also like to know why the dollar has gotten stronger as the economy has gotten worse. If anybody can explain that, I'd appreciate it. Here in Mexico I'm assuming that the Mexican economy is tanking faster than the US economy, but until a few days ago, the dollar was gaining against both the euro and the pound. I just don't get it.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Yes, it is not the way it was last year. A lot of the recession seems to be geographically and industry concentrated. 
In my corner real estate is bought and sold, companies lay off but they also hire. I see people spend money more carefully.
The grass does always seem so much greener on the other side:>) Immigration shows with happy and perfect families are all over Europe. People do not bother to do any research. Why should they? It is no fun to get an education, roll up the sleeves and work on making their home a better place. It is just so much easier to complain and point fingers at the ones who left and managed to "make it". They do not want answers in a forum. They want to have their ideas confirmed.


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

synthia said:


> There were a record number of mass layoffs in the US last week, and we have lost millions of jobs over the last four or five months. Yet we continue to get posts from people who seem to think that there are a lot of jobs available in the US. I don't understand that.
> 
> And I'd also like to know why the dollar has gotten stronger as the economy has gotten worse. If anybody can explain that, I'd appreciate it. Here in Mexico I'm assuming that the Mexican economy is tanking faster than the US economy, but until a few days ago, the dollar was gaining against both the euro and the pound. I just don't get it.


Synthia there are still jobs out there. My company is hiring and the local hospital are still searching for doctors and nurses. Any potential immigrant just needs to find one job not all of them! 

I don't understand why someone should stop pursuing their dreams just to appease you and your doom and gloom outlook on the economy. 

The dollar has not gotten stronger at all, its has nothing much recently but the euro and the pound have been weakening. The general consensus is the US has been in recession much longer Europe, so Europe still has got a long ride ahead.


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## Tiffani (Dec 4, 2007)

tomben

I don't think anyone should stop pursuing their dreams, but, not trying to step on Synthia's toes here or speak for her, it gets frustrating when someone comes on here and asks how easy it is to move to the US with a BA Hons in criminology or no degree but 10 years experience as an auto mechanic, only to complain when we're honest and say it's really hard and only gonna get harder. 

As for the currency, I have no idea... it's weird...


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

tomben

Well, the dollar is stronger against the pound, the euro, the Canadian dollar, the Australian dollar, the New Zealand dollar, the Mexican peso, the rupee, the rupiah, the baht, and nearly every other currency but the yen. I don't know how you can say that it's really just the pound and euro weakening.

As far as doom and gloom goes, I have been on this forum for 1 1/2 years. I have seen the same questions asked over and over. People who only did whatever O-levels are called now, and have a couple years as salesclerks, refusing to believe that the US won't welcome them with open arms. The week after Lehman brothers went under, we had several posts from financial people in the UK who thought this would be a great time to look for work on Wall Street. People who announce they are moving from the US to Germany next week and want to know if they will have trouble getting work if they don't speak German. People who don't know that they need a visa to work.

OK, there are here to learn, but many of them keep coming back after four or five of us have pointed out that they have no unique qualifications.

I agree that people just want to hear that America will welcome anyone who can walk with a great job. It isn't true. We had record job layoffs last week, there were more announced this week, and there are always companies that are hiring. However, if there are 1000 new jobs available, and 3000 people who have lost there jobs, it's not good.

Nurses have been in short supply ever since women interested in medicine were allowed to become doctors in greater numbers. I've been accused of being overly positive about those fields, because apparently it isn't as easy to get visas as it used to be. We've never had a post from a docto seeking to come to the US as far as I know, because the paths to do that are pretty well known. The fact that there are jobs for doctors means nothing to the people on this forum.

I'm here to help people, and I don't think it is helpful to encourage people in unrealistic dreams. It takes a lot of time and sometimes money to find a job in another country, and many of these people should be putting that energy into getting an education or working on enhancing their careers where they are. I suppose my parents could have supported me in my early dream of being a ballerina, but since the job opportunities for ballerinas who fall a lot are slim, they very wisely discouraged me. I know it is fashionable and politically correct to say that you can be anything you want to be, but you can't, and it isn't fair to tell people that they can.

My question was, if the US was the source of the economic downturn, why do I keep meeting people who think that the way to get away from the downturn in their economy is to try to move to the source? Why, as Wall Street and banking fall apart, do people think that the US has a shortage of people with undergraduate degrees in finance? I just don't get it.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Synthia - your image of a "ballerina who falls alot" gave me a chuckle.

And like Tiffani and others have said, no one wants to tell anyone to put aside their dreams. There is, however, a fine line between working toward a goal in a realistic manner and tilting at windmills. Right now, the world economic crisis makes it a rather tough time to be looking to expatriate from just about anywhere to just about anywhere else. Like someone said, it only takes one job opening to make an expat, but it helps to know where those kinds of jobs are and realistically what it takes to qualify.

Sure, there may be sectors of the US economy that are still hiring - but are any of those sectors even eligible for work visas, even putting aside the issue of whether the employers would be willing to pay the fees and wait the 6 to 12 months it can take to get someone through the visa process? (Especially with a line of job applicants - all available immediately - stretching down the block.)

Certain job categories are out of the question for foreigners - those requiring US citizenship, for instance. There's also the question of licensing in the US, which is handled by the states and often requires residence in the state as a first step. You can't get the job without the license, and you can't get the license until you are resident, so for someone needing a visa to come over at all, that seems a closed door. Many visa categories pretty much make a university degree of some sort a minimum educational requirement, so expat wannabees from places where a training certificate gets you a professional job may have to face some big disappointment - or consider going back to school if they want to be eligible to work in that field in the US. There's also the little matter of those 7,000 folks Microsoft is laying off - how many of them are H1B holders who now have 30 days to leave the country?

Our job here isn't just to get people to move overseas - it's more to help them understand what's involved so they can make a more realistic plan for themselves. We also have a responsibility to those folks already expatriated, who are running into problems or who need information they haven't been able to find locally.

It's tough times out there and some dreams are going to have to go on a back burner for a few months or years until the situation settles down.
Cheers,
Bev


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

I do not mind the absolutely unprepared questions as much as the sometimes almost rude responses when the answer does not meet a poster's approval. 

Over time I have worked on countless resumes for H1 hopefulls. I took ONE to my manager for consideration as candidate. What I see is lack of education, sloppy writing (typos on a resume!), outdated information (you do not know if your certifications are current what else do you not know?), unwillingness to "translate" to US ...

The rules of this game are established. Read them. Then work with them. Is this so difficult?


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

synthia said:


> tomben
> 
> Well, the dollar is stronger against the pound, the euro, the Canadian dollar, the Australian dollar, the New Zealand dollar, the Mexican peso, the rupee, the rupiah, the baht, and nearly every other currency but the yen. I don't know how you can say that it's really just the pound and euro weakening.




The dollar is pretty stable but other currencies are falling against it.

As the saying goes "When America sneezes the rest of the world gets a cold"


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

synthia said:


> tomben
> 
> 
> 
> My question was, if the US was the source of the economic downturn, why do I keep meeting people who think that the way to get away from the downturn in their economy is to try to move to the source?


I agree 100% with everything you said Synthia up to the part quoted above. Yes i see you are generally very helpful here, yes i agree not to give false hope, yes there are some stupid questions. But this is an expat forum and we do have a big sign above the door inviting all kind of these questions. 

Why want move to the source of the downturn you ask, well that would be a smart thing to try and do in my book. The US has been in recession longer and will likely be recovered sooner. The rest of the world started later therefore will likely last longer. So to move from a country starting a bad recession and to move to a country on the path to recovery would be a smart thing to do, regardless of your opinion that the country was the source.

My point is that people obviously need to be made aware of the economic situation here but just to dismiss people with the fact that the economy is bad and we don't have a lot of jobs is not nice because it does not necessarily mean they will definitely not be successful.

You posted a new thread along the lines of we don't have a lot of jobs so why do people bother? and I just don't get it. 

Immigration is still legal, jobs are still to be found and dreams fulfilled. Good luck to all those trying.

Hopefully i won't get banned now


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Tom - I am still looking for a post of yours which gives details, something constructive, something useful. Where is it?
You type well and lots of it. Though I see nothing but pretty fluff. Do wanna-be immigrants need more pink views? How about some reality such as cost of living, health insurance, people who may not embrace you, different lifestyle, English language seperating two countries, work ethics, social services ... 
What gets my craw as they say in The South is "I just want to live there" and then the whiner "unfair". Well - bring something to the table and it can happen. Back home (duck) we have a saying which translates to "nothing is free even death costs a life". You have to pay your dues on either side of the pond if you want to make it. 
Dreaming can turn into nightmares. I have seen them. Luckily my dreams were realistic enough to turn into reality.


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

twostep said:


> Tom - I am still looking for a post of yours which gives details, something constructive, something useful. Where is it?
> You type well and lots of it. Though I see nothing but pretty fluff. Do wanna-be immigrants need more pink views? How about some reality such as cost of living, health insurance, people who may not embrace you, different lifestyle, English language seperating two countries, work ethics, social services ...
> What gets my craw as they say in The South is "I just want to live there" and then the whiner "unfair". Well - bring something to the table and it can happen. Back home (duck) we have a saying which translates to "nothing is free even death costs a life". You have to pay your dues on either side of the pond if you want to make it.
> Dreaming can turn into nightmares. I have seen them. Luckily my dreams were realistic enough to turn into reality.


Wow, can add you as a friend then? 

i thought this post of mine was quite useful and hopefully gave that person something to look into. 
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/88038-post3.html


It sounds like a lot of things seem to annoy you. 

One thing i enjoy about immigrating to the US is people generally have a more positive attitude whereas people in the UK are more pessimistic.


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## Tiffani (Dec 4, 2007)

I heard on the news the other day that America is apparently tanking into "The 'D' Word" so just because things got worse first in the US doesn't mean they'll necessarily improve first in the US. 

I personally think America is gonna be OK. It'll take a long time, maybe even 5-10 years, before it's back on its feet again, but it's pretty resilient. In the meantime, I'm gonna park myself in Australia and work on a PhD because the recession hasn't hit here yet. And when it does (it will because China's economy is slowing down and they're not trading on commodities as much as they used to, so Australia's raw materials aren't being sold quite so well to their main importer), my partner and I will ride it out because we're making decisions now that we hope will protect us in the long term -- he's a lecturer in civil engineering at a university here working on water issues, and I just started a PhD myself taking advantage of the free research degrees for permanent residents of Oz, so that when we decide to move back home one day, we'll hopefully both be able to find a stable job.

I agree that now is a good time to be focusing on options at home to see what would-be immigrants can do to improve their odds over the long-term. if the _ultimate_ goal is to live in America, then they shouldn't be expecting a job offer and visa within 6 months!


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

tomben said:


> The dollar is pretty stable but other currencies are falling against it.
> 
> As the saying goes "When America sneezes the rest of the world gets a cold"


I think the definition of a strengthening dollar is that almost all currencies are falling against it. Now you are talking viewpoint, not fact.


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

If people were waiting until a recovery started, the idea that we would recover first would make sense, but we will be very lucky to see the slide stop before 2011.

I think a real problem, even for those that are successful in getting a work visa, is that the visa is totally dependent on the job. Many Europeans assume that the sort of social supports that exist there are universal in the developed world. If you have a job in the US, the employer is not required to give you any notice or provide any severance pay whatsoever. And that is usually the way it happens, one minute you are employed, you are called into your manager's office, and a few minutes later you are packing your stuff while a guard watches you and then being escorted to the door.

Also, one could go through all the expense and trouble of moving, only to have the company let you go within days of your arrival. There is no requirement that you be kept for a certain amount of time.

But generally, a lot of people seem to post here that think they have some sort of right to move here, even though Americans certainly don't have the right to move to their country. Someone posted a long time ago something like this:

You are making me think that America doesn't encourage immigration anymore.

Finally, someone who got it.


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

synthia said:


> I think the definition of a strengthening dollar is that almost all currencies are falling against it. Now you are talking viewpoint, not fact.


So in your mind you clearly have an opinion other than your I just don't get it face you put out on originally. What time frame are you talking about here for the currency difference? Why not try Google for you question as they have the general answer that i have been trying to give you. Its not just my viewpoint OK. Google can be your friend (sorry Fat)

Sometimes there are no compete and exact facts or explanations as to why the economy cycles like it does, its often a combination of a many factors. Its impossible to "get it completely" otherwise we would be able to avoid these situations, i'm certainly not going to spend my life trying to figure it out.

And i hope when I am retired like you i get to spend my time in Mexico with some fine company and tequila. I would wish to not be worried about the exchange rate as any such investments at that age should not be subject to that risk.


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## tomben (Dec 31, 2008)

synthia said:


> If people were waiting until a recovery started, the idea that we would recover first would make sense, but we will be very lucky to see the slide stop before 2011.
> 
> I think a real problem, even for those that are successful in getting a work visa, is that the visa is totally dependent on the job. Many Europeans assume that the sort of social supports that exist there are universal in the developed world. If you have a job in the US, the employer is not required to give you any notice or provide any severance pay whatsoever. And that is usually the way it happens, one minute you are employed, you are called into your manager's office, and a few minutes later you are packing your stuff while a guard watches you and then being escorted to the door.
> 
> ...


Yes there is absolutely no right to move here. Some people like me who start off on the H1B path in a rosy economy can run in to trouble with job market supply and demand. I lost my job on my second H1B renewal and my dreams were almost shattered due to the dot com bust early 2000's. I could not have predicted that, I did not feel any right to be here at the time. But i made it to USC.

I look at the UK immigration situation and feel sad, I visit back home and see friends/families living in tiny flats. The country the size of a postage stamp trying to take it all in. Its a shame.


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## EllieC (May 19, 2008)

I read some months ago that when oil prices drop the US dollar strengthens. I didn't fully comprehend the explanation but it made sense at the time...someone here may be able to elaborate. Funny a few years ago when I was living in Spain and the dollar was falling against the euro the economists were saying "the euro isn't strong....the dollar is weak." Now they say the dollar isn't strengthening??? Weird. On the subject of people immigrating to find better opportunities - agree that those of us who have been there, wherever it may be, should be realistic when asked about jobs in a certain country. Times like these do create a type of nationalism and many companies with openings are going to look to hiring locals before they consider a lesser trained expat. As they should. Having been through these difficult times before in Asia and Europe and now the US this has always held true. Sometimes there will even be a backlash against immigrants which isn't pretty. With that in mind - my advice to anyone without a specific skill set and a job lined up in a new country - stay put. Your chances of finding work, albeit less than you may be qualified - are going to be better in your own country. If you are really pining for a job elsewhere, wait it out. Zero in on the job you hope to get and prepare yourself by learning the language and obtaining the necessary qualifications. And....research, research, research....cost of living, visas, medical insurance, tax status - even one of those things can ruin your expat experience.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

EllieC said:


> With that in mind - my advice to anyone without a specific skill set and a job lined up in a new country - stay put. Your chances of finding work, albeit less than you may be qualified - are going to be better in your own country. If you are really pining for a job elsewhere, wait it out. Zero in on the job you hope to get and prepare yourself by learning the language and obtaining the necessary qualifications. And....research, research, research....cost of living, visas, medical insurance, tax status - even one of those things can ruin your expat experience.


I think this is some of the best advice I've seen on the subject. Conditions will change over time - and the more you know about the country you want to go to, the better idea you will have regarding what it will take.

What I think is almost funny about the current economic situation is that even the so-called "experts" don't actually understand what's happening. There's the mortgage crisis, there's the banking crisis and then there are all sort of "little things" that feed in both big crises (the building bust following the big building boom, the US taste for big gas-guzzling cars that just changed overnight, negative savings rate, need for infra-structure repair and maintenance, lack of a social safety net in the US, etc. etc.), along with the side issues, like the sorry state of the health care situation in the US. It all seems to have come home to roost at the same time - so the situation regarding immigration will certainly change over the next few years as all the side issues work themselves out.

It sounds like tomben did a good job of jumping on opportunities as they presented themselves. But today, if someone followed exactly the same steps as tomben, they might not be able to remain in the US once they lost that first H1B job. To some extent, it's a matter of luck - but being prepared does help.
Cheers,
Bev


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Bev - for a change you make sense. 

If you cannot make it in a place where you know the gameplan, speak the language and have your social support net what makes you think you can do it in a foreign environment? 

I talk to them every day:>( Brainchildren with multiple Masters, Ivy League, JD just to add it to the resume ... It hurts to say sorry I cannot help you as I still see them as people with feelings, hopes and families. Spoke with one yesterday. MBA Psychology, PhD thesis written - works for 13/hr. 

How about 20-30 year industry veterans who happend to be at the wrong place at the wrong time? I get calls from some who spoke with me back in 2006/2007 just to amuse themselves. Now they are reaching out because they are 300-500k short and running out of options.

Strangely companies are hiring. BUT - the cream of the crop for a nickel on the dollar and only someone who is employed.

Tiffany - US Gov jobs are in the process of switching form GS to band positions which means no more automatic pay increases ... but increases/promotions based on merritt only:>)

Tom - I would love to be your friend:>) Just to humor me - based on information given here - who do you think has a real chance to immigrate to the US?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

twostep said:


> Bev - for a change you make sense.


Um, thanks? 

Like you, I talk to lots of folks every day who want to try their luck elsewhere, but basically have no idea what they are getting themselves into. OTOH, when I decided to come over to Europe on my own, I just kind of worked out a strategy and went for it. Looking back, I really had no idea what I was doing (and today I'd probably counsel someone against doing it exactly the way I did) - but I was lucky. And I had two languages and a fair amount of travel experience in the countries where I was looking for work.

I've been following the evening news and a couple newspapers back in the US, and things back there are pretty tough right now. I've always been able to find a decent job when I've needed to, but I wouldn't want to have to look for work now in any part of the US (and I don't have to sweat the visa thing). Plus, having worked now for a number of years here in France, I can't really even imagine the "culture shock" of someone moving from a land of "worker protection" to the "law of the jungle" workplace in the US.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Spurkle (Dec 4, 2008)

The future is not looking bright.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Yes Bev it is a culture shock. Some manage well and adjust. Others by a return ticket. Unless you have something to bring to the table, determination and are willing to learn the "law of the land" or "rules of the game" you will be miserable.
I had no language issues (aside from being drilled 2 years in Cambridge's version of English which caused some confusion in the beginning) and always found a job. Not necessarily what I wanted but it was always decent work for good companies. Depending on how my present job is going I will finally go back to school. No mor accounting/banking/recruiting but horticulture. May as well make the best of free time and good schools:>)
My husband retired at 40 and turned a hobby into a second career. It took not quite four years and about 300k tuition, drive, sacrifices and long seperations but the gamble worked out. Actually 9/11 was the turnaround.


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