# Advice on dealing with family in the province



## starlightexpress (Jul 9, 2012)

Dear all

This is my first post on this forum and I hope I found the right place. I wanted the viewpoint of some people more experienced with the culture there and I really hoped to benefit from your ideas.

Although I am not resident in the phillipines, my fiance is, and I'm considering either living there or moving her here. My concerns actually surround the way her family in the province behaves which I find to be a problem so please let me explain. 

I realise that life in the province is difficult. However, at the moment we seem to be receiving demands for money on a weekly basis. We are now refusing to pay these, but this doesn't seem to stop the incessant hassle. Usually the demands are clearly bogus - 'we have no rice', or 'so and so is sick'. The most recent was along the lines of 'X is sick he has dengue fever we need 1000p for a blood test'. We replied 'ok what's the tel number of the doctor you saw and his name.' Reply: 'oh he is away'. After more pressing the true story is 'oh the test is negative'. You get the idea. 

We recently paid for and bought a house for her parents to live in. I have no problem with that. However I do have a problem when there is no 'thank you for the house' and in an argument the most recent statement that REALLY offended me was 'That house wasn't even a million pesos. Our neighbours daughter had a foreign boyfriend and he did this and that...' It seems like there is just an expectation all the time. It gets very wearing to be treated as an ATM machine the whole time with no 'thank you'. I of course have no problem helping people who are hungry - or giving gifts - but it really upsets me that there is an expectation that I have to pay for them and they aren't helping themselves. 

So far my policy has been so say 'no' to almost everything. However my fiance finds it difficult - so hard I am worried her head will explode. She has constant arguments with them on the phone with lots of shouting. The province believe that its her duty to support them, and support her siblings too. We have a situation where the mother and father aren't working, several brothers and sisters aren't working either, and the allowance that she WAS sending [she sent 4000 a month for the past ten years and basically sent everything she had to the province whatever they asked for] was being spent, I suspect mainly on alcohol and lavish meals, and then there were still always constant demands for more money. Since of course 'the forgeign bf' has come on the scene - the demands have worsened and become more frequent. 

In the past she has send them money for a "rice business' - that lasted about2 weeks - money for 'a fish business' - that lasted a few weeks - money for medical conditions that I suspect weren't real - and the list just goes on and on. Although she is getting better she seems to have a real blind spot when it comes to her family who seem willing to say and do almost anything to just get money using any means at all. I admit that I'm at my wits end and alarm bells are ringing loudly. 

I wonder have any people here had similar experiences? What did you do? This really doesn't sound like reasonable normal behaviour to me - is this because of a culture difference between myself (working in a bank, educated, western) and the province (not educated, living in bahai kubo) or is it just simply that this family is ruder and more idle than most? What are people's experiences? 

I know the following: 
a) Life in province is difficult.
b) Culturally a lot of people expect the kids to support the parents.
c) Everyone thinks that westerners have money to burn.
d) Filipina women are close to their familes.

But at the same time I'm finding it hard to match that to my own expectations that:

a) I don't mind helping someone who is working and helping themselves. 
b) I'm not working to support people who sit and do nothing but drink red horse all day and constantly ask for handouts.
c) I do expect a 'thank you' and some gratitude for buying someone a house rather than 'that house wasn't even a million pesos' - I mean - am I being unreasonable when I think this is really very rude? 

Any opinions, experiences would be most welcome - gleaned from either life there, or life abroad whilst dealing with the phillipines. 

Thanks
John


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

John, I know All of us on this site have been down that same road. The Sr members can add more, nut I've been with my wife 5 yrs after mtg in Japan and just married late 2010 b4 went to A'stsn. Demands on me have not been quite as bad as yours, but close when het close friends got onvolved,.stories of Malaria, etc. Did exactly what u did...Show me the proof type thong and they quickly go away. Now that I improved the house and bought them used jeep and barrio apt bldg of 5 rooms to rent and manage, I have them set amt such as u were doing... A bit more than .4k, but laid down law Via Wife that don't Carr how many babies sisters keep having they cannot afford, Not sending more. Your filipina has to be the buffer though and sstand firm, and jeep You out of discussion. U send the "allowance" and that is all...for me I figure I am just making sure they all eat. My wife has been great about handling the -
$ and since mom does have business sense actually and the run a good store,.she keeps ledger of every cent spent and where it goes. The only other thing I am going do is send her young Very smart neo to college bc that is only way he will get a decent job in PI to help sppt them later. The headaches u mention for her are probably same reason that my wife now thinks shell wanna live in U S once here bc puts distance frm them and demands, although internet and Skype make you just a mouse click away! Anyway, u will Always be seen as richk to them, so set Your rules and stay firm with Her as your CO or Chief of Staff who does the dirty work. If I'm u, and going to marry And you trust her, then I would get her out first to your country, then when retire or later maybe go back. As Gene will say, Live far from your relatives in PI !!! As for thank you, tell your wife. My relatives felt thanks bit were actually shy to approach and day it. Now they always thank me for all I do. Trick is to somehow become a blessing of sorts to them, vice atm. Good luck!


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

go thru the threads here and you will find similar wisdom and get yourself out of the moreass you are in!


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## starlightexpress (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks for the long reply I appreciate it. It sounds like you are lucky because at least one of your partners family has some business sense. In my situation I feel that none of them have any business sense and its just as easy to ask for a handout. 

I agree with what you say, my problem is that I wonder how long she will take the pressure. She seems to be the sort of person who historically never said 'no' to the family and believed all the stories, however incredible they were. Over the past ten years she must have sent hundreds of thousands of pesos to the province, all of which have been wasted on alchohol, wood carvings and knicknacks, meals (often with fish AND meat dishes at one meal) and feeding the neighbors, karoake parties.. 

When we discuss it, she often makes an excuse for their behaviour - 'maybe they forgot' or 'maybe it was a mistake' when its pretty clear that the behaviour is just simply BS. I do wonder whether, if she is abroad, the demands intensify, we get emotional blackmail, will she cave into the pressure and then that places me as 'the bad guy' who keeps saying 'no'? you see that is going to be a receipe for disaster because it works so long as your pinay 'buffer' sees all the BS and is strong and hard about her dealings with people who would exploit her. My fiance is a very sweet person, bordering on naieve sometimes, who often seems willing to lend money she can't afford to a hard luck story, who gives food to neighbors who then ask for money, or who believes her families wacky stories. I find this endearing, and its two sides of the same coin.. you can't encourage someone to be hard, business minded and impartial and at the same time keep the endearing kind thoughtful qualities that are part of who they are and part of what you like about them! 

Its a bit discouraging to see that most people have the same discussions. I really have no problem helping someone who is working hard, giving unexpected gifts to people that really appreciate it, or helping someone when they make a genuine effort. Its the 'expectation' that kills me. My attitude is that I worked hard for my money and my education, and I'm going to need to save money for my own retirement and own needs, so why should I just willingly carry a bunch of people who simply aren't going out to get a job or even making an effort? Its maddening. 

We bought them a tricycle which is never used to make money. They use it as a personal vehicle for convenience. There is always an excuse why its not being used to make money. There's even an excuse why it can not be sold. So its another way of making independent money that is just being squandered. 

My fiance's mother complaining that the house that we built for them 'isn't even a million pesos' really REALLY p****d me off. If just seems that whatever is done, its never enough. My fiance knows that I'm not happy that we didn't get a thank you. She isn't happy either. Its not that they are shy to say thank you - they just don't! Its just a total 'entitlement' mindset. Her mother says 'we brought you up you owe us you have to do this'. More is always wanted. Maybe I've been unlucky and this family is worse than most... but I'm still amazed that there seems to be no shame in the behavior - its almost as if they are surprised that I'm not putting my hand in my pocket the whole time. They say 'if this guy cares for you he should care for your family too'. I can see the point. I don't want them to starve. BUT I'm not about to let them have an idle life of waiting for handouts courtesy of my own (long) days and hard work. That just doesn't seem right. I don't mean to sound like I'm ranting but its very frustrating.

I said to my fiance the other day. 'Dealing with them - I'm reminded of a saying: 'you can never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.' ' This is how I see it. Its hopeless. Their behavior will not change. I can see that. The question is - I wonder how many other people have the same situation.. I can appreciate theres a lot of pressure to 'give in' and either send an allowance to keep the peace.. or just abandon your filipina altogether in the interests of NOT having hassle every week for the rest of your life. 

I did look on this forum for other threads and searched for 'sending money' and other terms but so far I haven't found any threads that matched this one I'll keep looking.. Any more feedback from anyone would be most appreciated.. 

Thanks.




Nickleback99 said:


> John, I know All of us on this site have been down that same road. The Sr members can add more, nut I've been with my wife 5 yrs after mtg in Japan and just married late 2010 b4 went to A'stsn. Demands on me have not been quite as bad as yours, but close when het close friends got onvolved,.stories of Malaria, etc. Did exactly what u did...Show me the proof type thong and they quickly go away. Now that I improved the house and bought them used jeep and barrio apt bldg of 5 rooms to rent and manage, I have them set amt such as u were doing... A bit more than .4k, but laid down law Via Wife that don't Carr how many babies sisters keep having they cannot afford, Not sending more. Your filipina has to be the buffer though and sstand firm, and jeep You out of discussion. U send the "allowance" and that is all...for me I figure I am just making sure they all eat. My wife has been great about handling the -
> $ and since mom does have business sense actually and the run a good store,.she keeps ledger of every cent spent and where it goes. The only other thing I am going do is send her young Very smart neo to college bc that is only way he will get a decent job in PI to help sppt them later. The headaches u mention for her are probably same reason that my wife now thinks shell wanna live in U S once here bc puts distance frm them and demands, although internet and Skype make you just a mouse click away! Anyway, u will Always be seen as richk to them, so set Your rules and stay firm with Her as your CO or Chief of Staff who does the dirty work. If I'm u, and going to marry And you trust her, then I would get her out first to your country, then when retire or later maybe go back. As Gene will say, Live far from your relatives in PI !!! As for thank you, tell your wife. My relatives felt thanks bit were actually shy to approach and day it. Now they always thank me for all I do. Trick is to somehow become a blessing of sorts to them, vice atm. Good luck!


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## Phil_expat (Jan 3, 2011)

starlightexpress said:


> Dear all
> 
> This is my first post on this forum and I hope I found the right place. I wanted the viewpoint of some people more experienced with the culture there and I really hoped to benefit from your ideas.
> 
> ...


What province does your fiancé family live in? Cost of living varies a lot based on where one lives. Buying the house was a mistake. I would consider it only if we were physically together. Age discrimination is paramount in the Philippines so it might be difficult for her parents to find work.
I live in the Philippine with my wife. My wife receives a substantial allowance from that she sends money to her family. I do buy her everything she needs except cell phones and loads. She gives them to her family!
Long time ago a long time expat in the Philippine told me to choose a girl first by her family. Seem you are heading for trouble…


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

I wish u luck. I do send $ every month and try keep set amt and that works. I just don't get sob stories anymore. I used to, but no more. I think the culture is such that they've all seen girls used and dumped so they take their new "prize horse" and run it into the ground. They have hard time thinking past tomorrow, much less next week. Still if money is wasted on crap, then u either have to stay firm on a small allowance , or frankly abandon ship and find a new one. Sounds harsh, but it is possible. I hold no illusions that if I were poor or barely able to contribute, my wife would not have stuck it out what has been a hard several yrs of ten times more apart than together, but she agrees we will not fund frivolous crap . You just have to figure out what You can tolerate and adjust course frm there. It's never easy but Your sanity matters most. It's like leaving an addict you love...if they are not going to change, you have to cut the rope, which is why I left my hoarding 1st filipina wife...to preserve sanity when all else failed. If u stay as is you are going to make yourself crazy with frustration . I feel for ya.


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

Nickleback99 said:


> I wish u luck. I do send $ every month and try keep set amt and that works. I just don't get sob stories anymore. I used to, but no more. I think the culture is such that they've all seen girls used and dumped so they take their new "prize horse" and run it into the ground. They have hard time thinking past tomorrow, much less next week. Still if money is wasted on crap, then u either have to stay firm on a small allowance , or frankly abandon ship and find a new one. Sounds harsh, but it is possible. I hold no illusions that if I were poor or barely able to contribute, my wife would not have stuck it out what has been a hard several yrs of ten times more apart than together, but she agrees we will not fund frivolous crap . You just have to figure out what You can tolerate and adjust course frm there. It's never easy but Your sanity matters most. It's like leaving an addict you love...if they are not going to change, you have to cut the rope, which is why I left my hoarding 1st filipina wife...to preserve sanity when all else failed. If u stay as is you are going to make yourself crazy with frustration . I feel for ya.


Nickleback is correct. You need to get your girl used to being a buffer. I also told mine when we first got together that I would not be an "ATM" for the family. And that if it ever got even close to what you are experiencing that I would drop her no matter how much I loved her. I further explained to her that the situation you are in is one of the prime reasons when filipina/foreigner marriages/relationships fail. I have done similar to what you have done, purchased a safe place for them to live, and provide an allowance that if she wants to share with the family, she can. But I am not hearing all the sob stories (she is) and she knows that I do not want to hear them either (and neither does she at this point). Mine gets it now (it took her several years) and relishes being apart from the family (freedom, less headaches, drama). Bottom line: until you lay down the law you won't ever get rid or lessen the burden (and drama).

wish you the best of luck.....


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## seram (Oct 12, 2011)

Hi John...

You have to toughen up mate.

You are only hearing gossip coming from the province. Seriously, why would you give a flying f&!k what anybody thinks about the price of the house you bought or built for the family. Get over it.........It dont matter what they say. Your not that precious, surely.

You have started them out in a couple of business options and they failed. Bad luck for them.

Mate..You are in a relationship with a Pinay. That means you are in a relationship with her family. Set the rules and stick with them. 

Your upset because the family may have had meat and fish during the same meal. I must be missing something here. I would feel proud to be able to provide them with that luxury.

Your Asawa gives food to neighbours. Mate, this is the way it works in the Philippines. Maybe the neighbours are hungry.

What I am reading is that you have a beautiful fiance with a great heart. Dont harden her up.

Get tough on the family handouts. You must be the one to tell the family so your fiance can save face with them. Give them a monthly allowance and dont budge. keep checking on the sob stories when they come in when asking for extra peso but do not drive a wedge between your fiance and her family. 

Their family is everything to them. regards


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Spot On*



seram said:


> Hi John...
> 
> You have to toughen up mate.
> 
> ...


I agree with most all that has been said in this thread. Maybe I missed something--have you been here and stayed with the family? How much time have you stayed in country?
The issues you are pointing out as frustrating, frustrate us all to some degree or another probably. It does not mean that your wife or her family is all wrong. This is not Kansas! It is South East Asia and they have an entirely different culture and play by totally different rules than we are use to. That's it, that's life here, and for the most part it-will-not-change.
It is extremely important to come, spend as much time as possible (3 to 6 months minimum) and make very, very sure you really want to live here coz all the issues that are bothering you now are in reality only the very tip of the proverbial ice berg. If these cultural difference bother you beyond acceptance now, what are you gonna do 365 days a year being out numbered in cultural ways that will not change for you?
I've been here a lot of years and although I had no problem with life here, I know many that have and either left or wound up dead!
Hope you get it figured out before making a move.


Gene

*PS. On giving food to the neighbors--they are probably extended family or lifelong family friends. Can't blame or fault her for that. Where we live, none are family but we give to neighbors whenever we know there is a need and even buy things from them that we don't need to help a bit. If the shoe changed foot overnight, these same people would be here to help us in any way they possibly could...

**One more point I should make here. Being a fiancee now and not a wife for a reasonable amount of time, a rhetorical question here---how well do you really know her family and extended family? Also and the most important--how well do you really know your fiancee? Well enough to trust YOUR LIFE completely to her and her family?? Not to mention their family friends.
Point I'm making in the kindest way possible is that it would be EXTREMELY unwise and dangerous to live here with or even close to her family unless you are 150% sure. It is extremely dangerous to be worth more dead than alive. And that is exactly the position you would be putting yourself in. *


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

...and Gene's last comment is the hardest to come grips with but oh so true. Make sure family Knows you are only worth anything to them Alive. No talk of insurance or continued survivor benefits to her frm retirement etc. Ur gal as noted has a great heart and that is both good and bad for u, but very endearing quality overall. As noted, you marry her?...u marry her family. My wife said, and I agree, that we need take care of parents, but she is not going to shoulder her siblings and their too many kids. Well she how she holds I guess. As friend of mine in Angeles said to his," If you keep giving away our $ to all the family without making them work for it, we'll not have a pot to piss in.". He luckily has handicrafts manufacturing biz there and only offers them jobs for pay and some bennies. Again, best of luck. Best regards, Jay


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## HVACman (Jul 27, 2011)

Reading the OP's post makes me feel very happy that my wife does not have any close family left in the PI. Having said that, she, and the rest of her siblings do help each other and their parents as best they can when the need arrises... and they've all been here in the states for more than 20 years.

I'm a Cano, and my uncle has lived in Philippines for the past eight years. The first time I saw him in about 10 years (last year) he asked if he could borrow $5K dollars.

How's that for irony.

OP I wish you luck. As long as you can afford to help then do so, but I would not 'help' to the point where it could effect my future financial needs and goals. +1 on what everyone is saying about getting tough. Do not feel guilty about saying 'no'.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

HVACman said:


> Reading the OP's post makes me feel very happy that my wife does not have any close family left in the PI. Having said that, she, and the rest of her siblings do help each other and their parents as best they can when the need arrises... and they've all been here in the states for more than 20 years.
> 
> I'm a Cano, and my uncle has lived in Philippines for the past eight years. The first time I saw him in about 10 years (last year) he asked if he could borrow $5K dollars.
> 
> ...


Just a note--I'm having fun reading the posts you guys. Life and attitudes really ARE different here in the "jungle":eyebrows:...

Hey, can I borrow $5grand too? Hahahahahaha...

Gene


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## HVACman (Jul 27, 2011)

Gene and Viol said:


> Just a note--I'm having fun reading the posts you guys. Life and attitudes really ARE different here in the "jungle":eyebrows:...
> 
> Hey, can I borrow $5grand too? Hahahahahaha...
> 
> Gene


Get in line, Gene. 

BTW, I said no, and all is good as long as i bring him a bunch pf Portugese linguisa whenever I visit.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Making Me Hungry!*



HVACman said:


> Get in line, Gene.
> 
> BTW, I said no, and all is good as long as i bring him a bunch pf Portugese linguisa whenever I visit.


Linguisa- are you kidding? I'd *KILL* for some linguisa!!! I use to have family in the little seaside town of Pescadero California and would go there for and get linguisa. Absolutely the best stuff in the world and have never found it here in the Philippines. Was just thinking and remembering when I was a kid, there was a very small restaurant in Pescadero that served a great linguisa sandwich at lunch time. Man I can still taste it!!!

Gene


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## Angel1403 (Jul 12, 2012)

*Set the rules*

Hi,

As most folk have said its a common problem....I'm very lucky as my wife agrees with my opinion re sending money.

We send her mom a set amount each month, to be shared in the house, but they also work, mom, dad etc. They stop working and the allowance stops. We are not working to support lazy folk 

I made it clear from the start that I married my wife, not the family....If my wife was after money, marry someone else.

Thanfully my wife was after love and married me 

Of course at times we send extra money, all her sibling birthdays, parents birthdays they get a set amount for a party that the whole immediate family can enjoy.

We also give them nice Chrismas gifts....recent gift a 32inch lcd tv 

However, I have also noticed they dont show much gratitude...strange....also sometimes the bros,sis, mom etc dont chat online unless they are asking for something or speaking about gifts they are getting...

That p****s me off big time 

However, that just results in them getting less 

It p****s me off that they dont chat to their daughter, sister enough, but my wife tends to ignore it, though I guess it hurts her a bit grrr

So my advice, set the rules and stick to it.....If they dont learn, send nothing, then they will learn fast 

Also encourage them to work, maybe suggest if they work you will send an allowance, if they dont work, no allowance 

Good luck, your girl sounds nice too 



starlightexpress said:


> Dear all
> 
> This is my first post on this forum and I hope I found the right place. I wanted the viewpoint of some people more experienced with the culture there and I really hoped to benefit from your ideas.
> 
> ...


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## anahuda (Jul 6, 2012)

.be tough to say no.
.help reasonably but make sure they dont make stories if you find that its reasonable to help them.
.you taught them how to catch the fish but still they want to be feeded.
.give allowance or give gifts for special occassion and thats enough.
.they will survive even if you will not send money because they have survived even if they dont know you before.
God knows your heart if you will say no so dont feel guilty and you have to talk to your asawa what is your plan. you are the MAN of the house so think properly for your future.


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

Another way to get ropes in is becoming Godfather to all the nephews and nieces...I am same to one child of each of my sis in laws , two of whom keep having baby after baby they cannot afford. Of course I know it means I and wife ate responsible for ea of those kids should something happen to parents. Such as it is! But that is all.


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## huckleberry658 (Nov 27, 2010)

alot of users in the phils, but on the other hand alot of us have fabulous extended family there. 

my advice is to set a monthly allowance, and they must stick to it it or else. by the way, how did they survive before you and your money came along? 

we send a set amount each month, modest amount. 

my wifes family is precious. they are embarrassed to recieve money, and nanay makes her husband and brothers get on the phone each month and personally thank me for sending money. 

i do other things when i can afford it, like buying them a boat, or tv or renuvating the house, but they have never asked for it. 



i feel i have been very blessed to have such a wonderful extended family, and i did bring their daughter halfway accross the world and they miss her dearly.

set a boundery and stick with it, if they cant abide, skip a month or two of their allowance, and maybe they will be more gratefull.


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2012)

This is how I truly feel about most of the people in the philippines who marry foreigners: the family feels entitled to things ... like we OWE them something.  There is a saying that goes something like "if you marry a pinay, you marry her entire family." Give a finger, they want a hand. Give your hand, they want your arm. It never stops with many people. My pinay and I do help her family in the province, but they are grateful and do not push when they don't need. Truly good people. 

Here's a story that I hope helps you deal with your situation more:

I once dated a girl whose family had truly nothing and lived in a shack. I felt bad that their family had no electric, so I bought them a generator (they lived away from the city). But I didn't help them actually, because they then had the problem of needing to pay for gasoline. The more I gave them, the more problems they had. So the lesson I learned from this is that sometimes it's best to not try to help them. In that case, I didn't give them a solution .. I only gave them more problems.

There is a loosely-related post on this site. You can find it as something like:

being-scammed-filipino-woman


Good luck with your situation there.


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## Aira Bongco (Jul 23, 2013)

It's the Filipino ego. You give them something and they think that you owe it to them. So the lesson? Give only the excess. Don't give anything that will be detrimental to you or face their ingratitude.


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## MikeynJenz (Oct 8, 2012)

Ahhh we are back to this one again lol...

This is seriously the biggest problem we as foreigners face and we have ALL experienced it at some level or another. 

It has to come down to as most have said, setting a budget on what you will do and never budge on it. If you budge just once, it will be expected every month, so be firm but fair.

I give her family (parents) a sack of rice each month, i pay their water bill and we spend about 3k on groceries once a month. That's about 5k total and i will never go above, despite them always asking for more.

Christmas time, yes we buy plenty of gifts, we too bought a flat screen TV (those cheap brands though) last year for her parents and the two kids that live in the house (i say kids but they are 24 and 25).

Totally agree with gratitude...there really is none. We got a thank you (fake though) the first month, but now it is more of what we must give them and not help anymore.

Me and the gf have just come back from a four day trip to Malaysia (visa run/holiday), bought some gifts and only one of them said ty. The mum wanted something better, the dad said why didn't you just give me cash instead and the other brother doesn't like his clothes because they are imitations and not 'real'.

Next time they will not get anything.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*To Give Or Not To Give*



MikeynJenz said:


> Ahhh we are back to this one again lol...
> 
> This is seriously the biggest problem we as foreigners face and we have ALL experienced it at some level or another.
> 
> ...


Agree with your thoughts and practices as well. I suppose it will never change with the bulk of the people and families here. Seems it's gotten to be a way of life and most don't have a decent sense of right and wrong to begin with. Without a doubt, I too would make that the very last time anything was given as gifts. As for supplying the family with food etc, I think it is okay in a "verifiable" emergency and perhaps during the holidays. Beyond that, I would not and still do not. They got along and managed to stay alive before you arrived in their life and can continue to do so.
Here, we supply medicine and doctors visits for the in laws but not much more--for the same reasons you mention. If ya once start, it doesn't stop----it just NEVER stops. Our life and that of our children as well as our marriage come first beyond and before anyone or anything else. They seem to have learned that will not change and have no further problems with the family.

*I think this thread has just about run it's course and I'll close it before it sinks into degradation. Perhaps we can reopen it again in the future ...


Gene:usa2:*


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