# Tilting at Windmills



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

David Eade (a Cadiz-based journalist) on the European Elections in his 'Tilting at Windmills' blog:
First Non-Spaniard to Run.
Thought that the general readers of this forum might be interested.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

lenox said:


> David Eade (a Cadiz-based journalist) on the European Elections in his 'Tilting at Windmills' blog:
> First Non-Spaniard to Run.
> Thought that the general readers of this forum might be interested.


Hmmm...again all about CDL and Sean O'Curneen I see. I think I see a recurring theme here, Lenox!!! I wonder who you'll be voting for...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I was discussing this with my family today who are over here from the UK and none of us are politcal animals or particularly interested, but my daughter just said in passing: "Well why do people bother moving to Spain and then try and vote in a Brit"... Is this how it is?? Does she have a point??? Or am I mis-understanding??

Jo xxxx


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

jojo said:


> I was discussing this with my family today who are over here from the UK and none of us are politcal animals or particularly interested, but my daughter just said in passing: "Well why do people bother moving to Spain and then try and vote in a Brit"... Is this how it is?? Does she have a point??? Or am I mis-understanding??
> 
> Jo xxxx



Yes she has a point for sure.

That aside however, is it not also true that Lennox is merely using this forum for for free advertising / promoting his preferred party


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SunnySpain said:


> Yes she has a point for sure.
> 
> That aside however, is it not also true that Lennox is merely using this forum for for free advertising / promoting his preferred party



Yes he is! And Steve deleted a few threads that were a little too OTT. But having tried to read the link he's just posted, I personally found it too boring to worry about deleting. Its not a profit making organisation anyhow.... or is it?? 



Jo xxx


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm in the "They're all as bad as each other" party

Billy Connolly had the right idea when he said the desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever being one. That man can be quite profound sometimes ......... and very funny

A very simplistic viewpoint I know .................. but I'm a simple person....... and have been told so many times:confused2:



Doggy


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> I was discussing this with my family today who are over here from the UK and none of us are politcal animals or particularly interested, but my daughter just said in passing: "Well why do people bother moving to Spain and then try and vote in a Brit"... Is this how it is?? Does she have a point??? Or am I mis-understanding??
> 
> Jo xxxx


From what I can gather though, he isn't a Brit, he is half Spanish half Irish and was born in the States and came here when he was six so I dont know if he really qualifies as an expat (since he probably had no choice in the matter) or a non-Spaniard either . But aside from that, I can see the attraction in voting in someone who might be more likely to understand the particular difficulties for Brits/expats living in Spain (although I dont know if that particular person does or not) but IMO it doesnt mean that kind of person would necessarily be British either. So I dont think playing the "one of us" card is enough in itself.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Caz.I said:


> From what I can gather though, he isn't a Brit, he is half Spanish half Irish and was born in the States and came here when he was six so I dont know if he really qualifies as an expat (since he probably had no choice in the matter) or a non-Spaniard either . But aside from that, I can see the attraction in voting in someone who might be more likely to understand the particular difficulties for Brits/expats living in Spain (although I dont know if that particular person does or not) but IMO it doesnt mean that kind of person would necessarily be British either. So I dont think playing the "one of us" card is enough in itself.



I think it sucks, I came to Spain cos I wanted to live in spain and live by Spanish rules, not to have some "outsider" trying to make it like the UK or anywhere else here!!!

Besides, this is the Eurpopean elections, not the Spanish elections!!

Jo xx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> I think it sucks, I came to Spain cos I wanted to live in spain and live by Spanish rules, not to have some "outsider" trying to make it like the UK or anywhere else here!!!
> 
> Besides, this is the Eurpopean elections, not the Spanish elections!!
> 
> Jo xx


From what I can glean from the news though, most of the parties are concerned with national issues in Spain in these elections, rather than Europe as a whole. Since I have come across so many ludicrous laws here and a lot of corruption and injustice, I wouldnt go as far as to say Spanish laws are wonderful, and we should accept them and not want to change them just because they are Spanish. Because, by the same token, I wouldnt say the same about British ones in the UK either . And perhaps, in some cases, I would want certain things to be in line with European standards without stamping out anything uniquely Spanish . But, to me, it is a question of genuinely representing all the people of a country without prejudice, so some people would probably think that rules out all politicians then! :lol:


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

I for one am prepared to put my hands up and admit that I have no idea to what degree Brussels can dictate an individual country's laws. Monetary policy within the EU, GDP borrowing limits, etc - yes. Agreements for people, commerce, cross border control easing, also yes. Although the UK has kept these alive quite nicely compared to most other European borders. 

I know they can produce guidelines and attempt to curb blatant corruption by threatening to withold funding. This is obviously very important if a country receives large amounts of funding from Brussels. The irony is, that as the ex Eastern Block countries joined the EU, the pot available for older members is less and less. And so the power to influence by witholding these now dwindling funds is also less and less. It would be interesting then, to see exactly what Brussels could do if the grant monies ever dried up.

A fine example of the above is France - who is forever getting slapped on the wrist, fined, warned, etc mostly due to unreasonable competitiveness, like subsidising X national corporates and unreasonable trade union behaviour. But they're still doing it - and as one of the richer members of the EU, I suspect they don't have to worry too much about EU funding.

Tallulah.x


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Just an aside... we have recently had in the post the gumpf accompanying the voting papers for the EU elections. They were : PP, PSOE, and BNG (Galician Nationalist party). Question then - was that a slick, corrupt move to give us a choice solely between three parties? Or is it that the other parties don't give a rats ass about the 2.8 million Galician votes?

Or is it perhaps that it's down to them (all parties) to get the paperwork out and the other dozens didn't get/couldn't get around to it?? 

Or is it down to us to go to the Town Hall, or somewhere, and ask for the other papers??

What's that about then??? Hmmmmm.....

Tallulah.x


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> Just an aside... we have recently had in the post the gumpf accompanying the voting papers for the EU elections. They were : PP, PSOE, and BNG (Galician Nationalist party). Question then - was that a slick, corrupt move to give us a choice solely between three parties? Or is it that the other parties don't give a rats ass about the 2.8 million Galician votes?
> 
> Or is it perhaps that it's down to them (all parties) to get the paperwork out and the
> Tallulah.x


I think Lennox should be given the opportunity to hand-deliver all such gumpf


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

SunnySpain said:


> I think Lennox should be given the opportunity to hand-deliver all such gumpf



Maybe it's a ploy by Zapatero frighened of the consequences of a landslide victory by CDL!!! I'm sure he's hand delivering some gumpf of his own.


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> I for one am prepared to put my hands up and admit that I have no idea to what degree Brussels can dictate an individual country's laws. Monetary policy within the EU, GDP borrowing limits, etc - yes. Agreements for people, commerce, cross border control easing, also yes. Although the UK has kept these alive quite nicely compared to most other European borders.
> 
> I know they can produce guidelines and attempt to curb blatant corruption by threatening to withold funding. This is obviously very important if a country receives large amounts of funding from Brussels. The irony is, that as the ex Eastern Block countries joined the EU, the pot available for older members is less and less. And so the power to influence by witholding these now dwindling funds is also less and less. It would be interesting then, to see exactly what Brussels could do if the grant monies ever dried up.
> 
> ...


I dont know to what extent they can dictate an individual country's laws either but I thought that if they breach European laws, for example, a law that is found to discriminate or breach someone's human rights, the EC would have to take them to court, as I think they have done, on a number of occasions. Although I am always reading news about Spain breaching European laws on one thing or another.
But what they can do, practically, apart from apply pressure to withhold funding and hope the negative publicity will make a difference, I don't know. Although I suppose the way things are at the moment, perhaps these days they need every penny of it they can get!


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Just an aside... we have recently had in the post the gumpf accompanying the voting papers for the EU elections. They were : PP, PSOE, and BNG (Galician Nationalist party). Question then - was that a slick, corrupt move to give us a choice solely between three parties? Or is it that the other parties don't give a rats ass about the 2.8 million Galician votes?
> 
> Or is it perhaps that it's down to them (all parties) to get the paperwork out and the other dozens didn't get/couldn't get around to it??
> 
> ...


You are lucky, I still havent had any gumpf at all and if its done through the usual postal system, they will probably arrive about 10 days after Voting Day!
Wouldnt be surprised at any tricks in the election process. Dont think I had any other information other than from the PP and PSOE for the town hall elections either last time. In the UK though, I think it depended on if it was viewed as a safe seat or not, if it was, I think the other parties thought there was no point on wasting money on publicity so didnt bother. So could be the same thinking.
Dont know much about the parties in Galicia but I thought I saw something on the net about a Coalition of Green Parties for Galicia which I would have had enough clout to get something out about themselves. Cant imagine the town hall being that helpful...


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> I dont know to what extent they can dictate an individual country's laws either but I thought that if they breach European laws, for example, a law that is found to discriminate or breach someone's human rights, the EC would have to take them to court, as I think they have done, on a number of occasions. Although I am always reading news about Spain breaching European laws on one thing or another.
> But what they can do, practically, apart from apply pressure to withhold funding and hope the negative publicity will make a difference, I don't know. Although I suppose the way things are at the moment, perhaps these days they need every penny of it they can get!


Yes it is unfortunate that their powers are somewhat limited when it comes to seeing our everyday lives and the fairness of it all. Given that it took years to sort out the French subsidising so many industries, whilst other countries' industries made to stand on their own two feet were going, and indeed, went to the wall, it gives individuals little hope. 

We all have the European Court as the ultimate recourse, of course. But as with all matters legal, how many of us mere mortals can afford that kind of redress? 

I'm sure many companies, be it here or anywhere else, will play on that quite heavily. It took thousands of cases before the Valencian land grab scandal got any serious attention from Brussels and even then, I'm not sure how effective they've been.

It doesn't bode well for the structure of the Brussels legal machine at the moment as the crisis has made a mockery of all competition laws with governments supporting who they want and others going down. It appears all it takes is some sort of agreement between the G whatever powers (not even EC only) and all fair and unfair competition law goes out of the window. 

Imagine how the banks that have gone under felt, or more importantly, the "little people" when this bastion of fairness suddenly allowed some to bailed out and others not. Great reasons, but at the end of the day, the real crisis is with those that lost their money when those that went under died and all the best reasons in the world don't amount to a hill of beans.

I personally wonder if Brussels is a bit like the US presidency, with Germany/France and the UK equating to Capitol Hill where the real power is. If that is the case, and I suspect it is, then we're into a scenario where what is fair will be dictated by the times and not by fairness itself.

I don't think any country is beyond corruption. I think the level and the slickness with which it occurs varies HUGELY from one country to another and in that sense, I firmly believe that Spain is a little, rather immature and politically unaware, baby. I will always tell my extended family that Spain is a third world country when it comes to dodgy dealings and that it needs the UK's famous 5% to learn how to do it big and do it right, and leave those they've done it to smiling.

Tallulah.x


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

I have to say, I've noticed on the forums and in some mail that those who aren't interested in the political process here in Spain are often quite hostile about the whole thing. They start talking about Asians in the UK or how all politicians are crooks or how we don't want foreign johnnies running our country. Our country? In Spain, what you do if you don't like any of the candidates or even politicians in general is you go along to the polling station and vote with an empty envelope. See the difference between that and the vapid apologies or angry self-justifications of the 'don't cares, won't cares'?


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

lenox said:


> I have to say, I've noticed on the forums and in some mail that those who aren't interested in the political process here in Spain are often quite hostile about the whole thing. They start talking about Asians in the UK or how all politicians are crooks or how we don't want foreign johnnies running our country. Our country? In Spain, what you do if you don't like any of the candidates or even politicians in general is you go along to the polling station and vote with an empty envelope. See the difference between that and the vapid apologies or angry self-justifications of the 'don't cares, won't cares'?


In Spain, before one votes with an empty envelope (voto en Blanco), one should understand the "ley de OHM" and the maths used (or should I say manipulated) to calculate Escaños once the voting is done.

So, voting in "Blanco" is a risk. Voting for "Vecinos de Palencia" or whatever, is also a risk because they can pact with the one you went against in the first place.

Doesn't leave a lot of safe options does it. I fear that if one doesn't want to do their homework before they vote, the safest is to actually do nothing.


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

lenox said:


> I have to say, I've noticed on the forums and in some mail that those who aren't interested in the political process here in Spain are often quite hostile about the whole thing. They start talking about Asians in the UK or how all politicians are crooks or how we don't want foreign johnnies running our country.



Lennox - I have always thought most politicians are corrupt and recent findings in the UK would go some way to justify my beliefs and I'm sure if the powers that be investigated all MP's and the likes they would find a lot more shinanigans

Getting people to vote in these times is difficult enough as in many households apathy rules and I have no intention of voting in this election or the next.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SunnySpain said:


> Getting people to vote in these times is difficult enough as in many households apathy rules and I have no intention of voting in this election or the next.


I'm with you on that Dave.

What needs to happen IMO is for a political party or a politician to actually learn how to tap into the squillions of apathetics like us!!! WOW and woe us into believing them, trusting them and actually produce some policies that are interesting, stop being patronising and PC! - SAY AND DO SOMETHING EXCITING AND DIFFERENT!!!!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Like Obama...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> Like Obama...



Well yes, to a point..... but less PC!!! But what happens is that anyone vaguely "new" and radical and who says what the people actually think and feel, immediately gets "disgraced" in the media or by the government and dissappears???? Its all so loaded and undemocratic that its not worth wasting life on

jo xxx


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

jojo said:


> Well yes, to a point..... but less PC!!! But what happens is that anyone vaguely "new" and radical and who says what the people actually think and feel, immediately gets "disgraced" in the media or by the government and dissappears???? Its all so loaded and undemocratic that its not worth wasting life on
> 
> jo xxx



Exactly Jo, I'm off to the pool


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