# setting up mobile mechanic business in spain



## alex1982

hi,
we are considering moving to Spain this time next year. My partner currently works as a mobile mechanic in the UK and we were wondering if it would be viable for him to do the same in Spain? We would bring his van and all his equipment with us. I have heard that you have to pay £250 in NI a month when you are self employed whether you are making money or not. This is why I am asking if it is a viable option. I have a family member who lives near Malaga so this is the area we would likely head to. Alternatively, how likely would it be for him to get a job in a garage? it does not matter to us if he is employed or self employed as long as we can survive. i intend to work in my cousins bar at first while searching for a position that will last over the winter months. we don't have a house to sell but intend to bring a caravan to live in for a few months until we find somewhere suitable to rent. We are planning to bring enough money to last 8-12 months if we are frugal. if it all goes pear shaped i'm sure my cousin won't let us starve! 'i just wondered if there were many other mobile mechanics operating in the area?


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## 213979

Oh man... Good luck! I am not sure about mobile garages, I thought all here had to be legal...


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## alex1982

elenetxu said:


> Oh man... Good luck! I am not sure about mobile garages, I thought all here had to be legal...



we do it legally here! you have to have public liability insurance and pay tax but it is perfectly legal in the uk. lots of people do it and it's popular as the customer pays less as there are much fewer overheads. it is no different to the AA doing breakdowns and home starts is it?


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## 213979

alex1982 said:


> we do it legally here! you have to have public liability insurance and pay tax but it is perfectly legal in the uk. lots of people do it and it's popular as the customer pays less as there are much fewer overheads. it is no different to the AA doing breakdowns and home starts is it?


The UK is the UK. Spain is Spain. Legal workshops have been complaining a bit in the press about 'pirate' shops. I wish I could tell you more. I have never seen a mobile shop here- it all seems to be brick and mortar shops, at least where I am.


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## alex1982

elenetxu said:


> The UK is the UK. Spain is Spain. Legal workshops have been complaining a bit in the press about 'pirate' shops. I wish I could tell you more. I have never seen a mobile shop here- it all seems to be brick and mortar shops, at least where I am.


we are only just starting to think about moving abroad so i am asking the initial questions. do you know where would be a good place to go to find out for definite? 
or what would be the chances of him finding work in a garage?


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## 213979

alex1982 said:


> we are only just starting to think about moving abroad so i am asking the initial questions. do you know where would be a good place to go to find out for definite?
> or what would be the chances of him finding work in a garage?


How is his Spanish? Do you know what the unemployment rate is in the region where you are looking to move? I wish I could help you more with the laws. Maybe do search for leyes talleres mecanicos españa would help.


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## alex1982

elenetxu said:


> How is his Spanish? Do you know what the unemployment rate is in the region where you are looking to move? I wish I could help you more with the laws. Maybe do search for leyes talleres mecanicos españa would help.


spanish is non existent at the moment but we are both planning on taking lessons if we do definitely decide to move. i don't think unemployment is too good in the area we were thinking of but people will always need their cars fixing. that is why we have found the mobile mechanic thing pretty good in the uk. people need to get to work but have less money to spend so offering cheaper repairs as a mobile mechanic (which you can do as you have less overheads) has worked out quite well. where other businesses have struggled, garages/mechanics have stayed pretty stable. 
i will have a look for those search terms. thank you.


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## jojo

Its not a great idea. Yes, you have to pay autonomo of around 250€ a month. Also you cant bring a UK commercial vehicle over legally, you'd have to sell it and buy a spanish one. The other thing is that on Spanish car insurance, a guyer (A mechanic/tow truck) is included in the price. When I broke down, they came and fitted a new battery for me on the spot for nothing (well the price of the battery if I recall) and, had I have needed them to, they would have towed me to the nearest garage. As for finding work in a garage - well maybe a fact finding mission or looking for jobs online???

Jo xxx


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## alex1982

jojo said:


> Its not a great idea. Yes, you have to pay autonomo of around 250€ a month. Also you cant bring a UK commercial vehicle over legally, you'd have to sell it and buy a spanish one. The other thing is that on Spanish car insurance, a guyer (A mechanic/tow truck) is included in the price. When I broke down, they came and fitted a new battery for me on the spot for nothing (well the price of the battery if I recall) and, had I have needed them to, they would have towed me to the nearest garage. As for finding work in a garage - well maybe a fact finding mission or looking for jobs online???
> 
> Jo xxx


thank you. that's a bit of a bummer about the van  I am assuming cars and vans are pretty expensive in spain as it was cheaper for my cousins husband to come back to the uk to buy a new car then drive it back to spain. there is that english run garage in marbella that have a show on the discovery channel! maybe they will give him a job. lol. In the UK he doesn't do so many breakdowns. it is more about doing repairs and servicing for people on their drives, garages or where they work. there are quite a few in the uk at the min and they are doing well as the customer gets the work done cheaply as the mechanic doesn't have massive overheads and can pass the saving on. we are just exploring options for now so forgive me if i ask about another hair brained scheme in a few days!


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## alex1982

jojo said:


> Its not a great idea. Yes, you have to pay autonomo of around 250€ a month. Also you cant bring a UK commercial vehicle over legally, you'd have to sell it and buy a spanish one. The other thing is that on Spanish car insurance, a guyer (A mechanic/tow truck) is included in the price. When I broke down, they came and fitted a new battery for me on the spot for nothing (well the price of the battery if I recall) and, had I have needed them to, they would have towed me to the nearest garage. As for finding work in a garage - well maybe a fact finding mission or looking for jobs online???
> 
> Jo xxx



the van is only a vauxhall vivaro (like a short wheel base transit) would that definitely class as a commercial vehicle? even if he didn't work as a mobile mechanic, he wouldn't go anywhere with out his beloved tools! most garages like you to have your own tools when you work for them anyway


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## xabiaxica

afaik it's illegal to work on a car on the roadside except for urgent repairs, so that needs to be taken into consideration, too

apart from the autónomo payments ( I think the min has just risen to nearer 260€/month) , tax, all the insurances...... it for sure wouldn't be a inexpensive exercise just getting started,....


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## 213979

xabiachica said:


> afaik it's illegal to work on a car on the roadside except for urgent repairs, so that needs to be taken into consideration, too
> 
> apart from the autónomo payments ( I think the min has just risen to nearer 260€/month) , tax, all the insurances...... it for sure wouldn't be a inexpensive exercise just getting started,....


This is what I've heard, too. 

Also, if you don't speak Spanish how the dickens are you going to easily order parts? I don't think it's really that feasible an idea.


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## alex1982

elenetxu said:


> This is what I've heard, too.
> 
> Also, if you don't speak Spanish how the dickens are you going to easily order parts? I don't think it's really that feasible an idea.


well, we were going to learn spanish - as i said. but you can also order by part number and look them up on the internet. he doesn't work at 'the side of the road' - it is usually at people's properties in their driveways, car parks or garages. it is not a breakdown service. it is more repairs (eg suspension) and servicing. if it's not going to work, it isn't going to work. but you don't know until you ask.....


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## xabiaxica

alex1982 said:


> well, we were going to learn spanish - as i said. but you can also order by part number and look them up on the internet. he doesn't work at 'the side of the road' - it is usually at people's properties in their driveways, car parks or garages. it is not a breakdown service. it is more repairs (eg suspension) and servicing. if it's not going to work, it isn't going to work. but you don't know until you ask.....


I might be wrong - but it's the repairs on driveways that isn't allowed - anything except emergency breakdown repair work has to be done on registered premises


I _might _be wrong - but I don't think so


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## alex1982

xabiachica said:


> afaik it's illegal to work on a car on the roadside except for urgent repairs, so that needs to be taken into consideration, too
> 
> apart from the autónomo payments ( I think the min has just risen to nearer 260€/month) , tax, all the insurances...... it for sure wouldn't be a inexpensive exercise just getting started,....




probably not but it would be cheaper than renting out a premises with no customer base ready. what we intended to do was stay with my cousin (parking our caravan on her drive) and work in bars to start with while setting up promoting the business. we didn't expect to make money from it straight away.


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## alex1982

xabiachica said:


> I might be wrong - but it's the repairs on driveways that isn't allowed - anything except emergency breakdown repair work has to be done on registered premises
> 
> 
> I _might _be wrong - but I don't think so[/QUOTE
> 
> who would have thought laws like that would be tighter in spain than the uk!
> surely you can repair your own car on your own drive though?


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## xabiaxica

alex1982 said:


> who would have thought laws like that would be tighter in spain than the uk!
> surely you can repair your own car on your own drive though?


a LOT of laws are tighter here than the UK....


actually - in a lot of areas at certain times of year you can't even WASH your own car on your own driveway..... let alone repair it


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## jojo

Dont forget that all insurance in Spain has the breakdown cover included - so "the Gruyer" is the one you call for breakdown emergencies. If they cant fix it, they'll tow you to the nearest garage. Maybe e-mail a few garages and see if they have any vacancies??? But remember that Spain is in a serious recession, unemployment is rising and is already way above that in the UK, so you'll be competing against locals and existing bilingual expats. The best way to live in Spain right now, is to have an on line business or a pension

Jo xxx


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## bob_bob

alex1982 said:


> probably not but it would be cheaper than renting out a premises with no customer base ready. what we intended to do was stay with my cousin (parking our caravan on her drive) and *work in bars to start with* while setting up promoting the business. we didn't expect to make money from it straight away.


You don't seem to grasp just how high unemployment is in Spain, there are many thousands of local people who would love to '_work in bars to start with_'. You don't speak the language, don't know the system plus you now need proof of earnings and or savings before you can become a resident etc. If your earning a living in the UK then stay there and go to Spain for holidays because the likelihood of you surviving in Spain is minimal to say the least.


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## gus-lopez

alex1982 said:


> the van is only a vauxhall vivaro (like a short wheel base transit) would that definitely class as a commercial vehicle? even if he didn't work as a mobile mechanic, he wouldn't go anywhere with out his beloved tools! most garages like you to have your own tools when you work for them anyway


If it is sold in Spain as a van/commercial vehicle then , to the Spanish, it will always be a van. Also many vehicles in the UK which are van based but are PLG in the UK are still vans here. 
In addition you cannot have seats in the back without windows in the side here , unlike the UK.


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## mrypg9

We owned two large repairing garages in the UK so we know what we're talking about, to some extent at least.

Some obvious points arise: many jobs require specialised heavy equipment which you can't carry around in a van. Without a knowledge of Spanish your customer base is severely restricted. Few people pick up a foreign language overnight.
There are rules about what you can and can't do as a mechanic in Spain. It is illegal to do roadside and similar repair jobs unless you are a recognised breakdown service. Rightly so, imo. Then there is the question of legal disposal of waste, tyres etc....The laws are as strict here as in the UK.
As someone has pointed out unemployment is massive in Spain. In Malaga Province, where I live, it's now at 40%. Many British immigrants have packed up and returned to the UK. 
There are already many auto repair outlets of varying sizes and varying success, it must be said. In our nearest town there are literally dozens of repairing garages. Many are struggling to survive.
There is also the unfortunate point that British companies do not enjoy the best of reputations here. Too many cowboys who reinvented themselves on landing in Spain. Most of us prefer to use established Spanish local firms.
So I would say your chances of making a living are slim. Your customer base will be limited, you will face strong competition in an already over-supplied market and you will have to deal with complicated and complex Spanish rules and regulations. Spain is not the easy-going free-for-all some people imaginre it to be...quite the reverse!
As for barwork....long hours, poor pay..and jobs as rare as hen's teeth.


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## MaidenScotland

I have a friend who is a Mercedes engineer/mechanic, speaks fluent Spanish, knows the area like the back of his hand and yet chooses to be employed for a reason.. there is no money in being a mobile mechanic.


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## extranjero

work even for people with qualifications is very difficult.I doubt he would get a job in a garage, when so many Spaniards are finding it hard.It's not a good time to move to Spain unless you are a rich pensioner! You will have all the problems of healthcare etc


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## alex1982

mrypg9 said:


> We owned two large repairing garages in the UK so we know what we're talking about, to some extent at least.
> 
> Some obvious points arise: many jobs require specialised heavy equipment which you can't carry around in a van. Without a knowledge of Spanish your customer base is severely restricted. Few people pick up a foreign language overnight.
> There are rules about what you can and can't do as a mechanic in Spain. It is illegal to do roadside and similar repair jobs unless you are a recognised breakdown service. Rightly so, imo. Then there is the question of legal disposal of waste, tyres etc....The laws are as strict here as in the UK.
> As someone has pointed out unemployment is massive in Spain. In Malaga Province, where I live, it's now at 40%. Many British immigrants have packed up and returned to the UK.
> There are already many auto repair outlets of varying sizes and varying success, it must be said. In our nearest town there are literally dozens of repairing garages. Many are struggling to survive.
> There is also the unfortunate point that British companies do not enjoy the best of reputations here. Too many cowboys who reinvented themselves on landing in Spain. Most of us prefer to use established Spanish local firms.
> So I would say your chances of making a living are slim. Your customer base will be limited, you will face strong competition in an already over-supplied market and you will have to deal with complicated and complex Spanish rules and regulations. Spain is not the easy-going free-for-all some people imaginre it to be...quite the reverse!
> As for barwork....long hours, poor pay..and jobs as rare as hen's teeth.






Fair enough. It won't work. But how was I ever to know that without asking? Also I don't see why you are turning your nose up at the idea of working on people's cars at their homes. I never said anything about 'the side of the road'. Unfortunately we were born too late to be part if the 'buy a house in the 70's/80's for £10k, sell it in 2006 for £250k' brigade like many older people (including my in laws). We are also of the generation where business loans are very difficult to get. So we dont have equity we can use to set up a business. Some replies on here have been polite and helpful. Others seem to have a patronising, insulting tone.


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## jojo

alex1982 said:


> Fair enough. It won't work. But how was I ever to know that without asking? Also I don't see why you are turning your nose up at the idea of working on people's cars at their homes. I never said anything about 'the side of the road'. Unfortunately we were born too late to be part if the 'buy a house in the 70's/80's for £10k, sell it in 2006 for £250k' brigade like many older people (including my in laws). We are also of the generation where business loans are very difficult to get. So we dont have equity we can use to set up a business. Some replies on here have been polite and helpful. Others seem to have a patronising, insulting tone.


You have been right to ask - I for one think that forums (this one in particular lol) are a great first step. And yes, how do you find out stuff without asking. I think that historically, Spain has come aacross as one of those wonderful destinations where you can simply set up and enjoy living the dream. Unfortunately for you and me, its not like that anymore. I'm stuck in the UK too - my husband wanted to start a business over there, but we ended up with him commuting, as the recession scuppered our plans. In the end, the commute and various other things meant we moved back to UK 

So dont feel patronised, I guess these questions get asked quite alot and its hard for those answering them to come across as positive - but thats all, its a negative world right now sadly!!! But I like to think things are improving, we've all got to count our blessings and bide our time

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

alex1982 said:


> Fair enough. It won't work. But how was I ever to know that without asking? Also I don't see why you are turning your nose up at the idea of working on people's cars at their homes. I never said anything about 'the side of the road'. Unfortunately we were born too late to be part if the 'buy a house in the 70's/80's for £10k, sell it in 2006 for £250k' brigade like many older people (including my in laws). We are also of the generation where business loans are very difficult to get. So we dont have equity we can use to set up a business. Some replies on here have been polite and helpful. Others seem to have a patronising, insulting tone.


Get over yourself. You asked a question and seemingly didn't like the answers you got.

I'll tell you my opinion of many - not all -roadside 'mechanics'. 
Many have no formal qualifications whatsoever. 
Many charge low rates because they pay no taxes, have no overheads - and offer the customer no comeback for botched jobs.
Mind you, we made money from redoing these botched jobs as customers brought their vehicles to us for a 'proper' job.

You seem to think your generation is hard done-by. Do you imagine that everyone born before you had an easy life? People like us, born into post-war austerity Britain, had to work hard for decades, overcoming all kinds of obstacles - recessions, personal difficulties and so on. Nothing was handed to us on a plate, including business loans. Time was when people had to look to their own resources, their own capital, before starting a business. Our business was started in the early 1960s. Survival wasn't always certain. It hasn't always been easy to borrow to invest in the past fifty years .Why should anyone be lent money as if it were some sort of entitlement, I wonder? Bad loans are one cause of our current crisis situation.

As for buying a home for £10k in the 1970s and 1980s and sell for £250....where did you get that idea from, I wonder....Some, I'd say most of us, bought our houses with a hefty deposit...none of this 110% mortgage nonsense. We did not view our houses as income generators either...that rather vulgar idea is a comparatively recent phenomenum.

Frankly, I'm amazed that so many people seem totally oblivious to how people live here. Don't people in the UK listen to the news? Don't they read anything other than 'The Sun'? This country is on its knees. The last thing it needs is immigrants from anywhere taking employment opportunities Spaniards desperately need. Spain is not a British colony. It's not like Australia, Canada or South Africa at the turn of the last century.
No Eldorado.


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## 213979

alex1982 said:


> Fair enough. It won't work. But how was I ever to know that without asking? *Also I don't see why you are turning your nose up at the idea of working on people's cars at their homes.* I never said anything about 'the side of the road'. Unfortunately we were born too late to be part if the 'buy a house in the 70's/80's for £10k, sell it in 2006 for £250k' brigade like many older people (including my in laws). We are also of the generation where business loans are very difficult to get. So we dont have equity we can use to set up a business. Some replies on here have been polite and helpful. Others seem to have a patronising, insulting tone.


It's because we're not sure it's even legal. I would argue that most people in Spain don't have individual driveways. They either live in flats or single family homes which back right onto the street. Therefore, the idea of trying to work on a person's car in an individual, private driveway limits your business. 

I'm 90% certain that it's illegal to work on one's own car in the street. I don't see anyone turning their nose up at the idea, I think we're just trying to tell you that it's not a solid business idea here because it's flat out illegal.


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## 213979

mrypg9 said:


> This country is on its knees. The last thing it needs is immigrants from anywhere taking employment opportunities Spaniards desperately need. Spain is not a British colony. It's not like Australia, Canada or South Africa at the turn of the last century.
> No Eldorado.


Mary, this is a very slippery slope. 

My husband and I went to Germany last February. When we were there, we spoke with a local and his girlfriend and the first thing they asked us when we said we were from Spain was: "Why are you here?" After telling him we were on vacation, he began to smile at us. 

Should Spaniards not go abroad to find work? Should I leave my job because I'm a foreigner, taking work away from a Spaniard? Or, should we look at it as me supporting my Spanish husband who is working 1/2 time due to cuts in education? Last year, while working in the public school system, I got this argument lobbed at me (unknowingly) in a union meeting. The union rep didn't know who I was or why I was teaching there and started railing on the fact that the government was bringing in native speakers as assistant teachers. I had to walk out. I was "taking their jobs." 

Maybe I'm overly sensitive to the "They're taking our jobs!" argument since I've seen so, so much of this bologna in the US. It's bull. 

Remember, part of the EU single market is the free movement of people and labor. Just last week, the EU announced plans to help migrant workers in the region: 
BBC News - EU unveils plans to help migrant workers

All I wanted to say was please be careful of the "They're taking our jobs" argument. It's a very, very slippery slope.


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## Pesky Wesky

Whilst I don't disagree with anything fellow members have said I just like to say there *are* some mobile mechanics here. Not very many, and how it works out legally I don't know as I agree with what people say about roadside repairs being illegal. A couple of years ago I saw one operating in Las Rozas, Madrid and he was looking at a car in a office car park. I have Googled mobile mechanic Spain and quite a few come up, much than if you Google mecanico movil España.
You should try doing the same (use Google España) and get in touch with the people who are already doing it to see what the prospects are.
Personally, with the way things are in Spain now (please Google unemployment Spain 2013 too) I would agree with everything that my "colleagues" have said and would advise you to think again, but it just isn't right to say that these businesses don't exist.


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## 213979

I've been trying to find legislation about mobile mechanics in Spain and I can't find anything. Here's a suggestion: FATA - Federación Andaluza de Talleres de Automóviles y Afines
Get in touch with the aforementioned professional association. Ask them about becoming a mobile mechanic. 

Also, here's an article from 2012 about the upswing in illegal mechanics in the region: La cifra de talleres mecánicos ilegales en Málaga se ha duplicado en 2012 - Actualidad - posventa They do say that 45 have been reported to the authorities. 

Good luck.


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## mrypg9

elenetxu said:


> Mary, this is a very slippery slope.
> 
> My husband and I went to Germany last February. When we were there, we spoke with a local and his girlfriend and the first thing they asked us when we said we were from Spain was: "Why are you here?" After telling him we were on vacation, he began to smile at us.
> 
> Should Spaniards not go abroad to find work? Should I leave my job because I'm a foreigner, taking work away from a Spaniard? Or, should we look at it as me supporting my Spanish husband who is working 1/2 time due to cuts in education? Last year, while working in the public school system, I got this argument lobbed at me (unknowingly) in a union meeting. The union rep didn't know who I was or why I was teaching there and started railing on the fact that the government was bringing in native speakers as assistant teachers. I had to walk out. I was "taking their jobs."
> 
> Maybe I'm overly sensitive to the "They're taking our jobs!" argument since I've seen so, so much of this bologna in the US. It's bull.
> 
> Remember, part of the EU single market is the free movement of people and labor. Just last week, the EU announced plans to help migrant workers in the region:
> BBC News - EU unveils plans to help migrant workers
> 
> All I wanted to say was please be careful of the "They're taking our jobs" argument. It's a very, very slippery slope.


I disagree. On the contrary, I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed in an open, informed way.
There is no country in the world that has an 'open door' policy for workers. Most countries apply categories and quotas, recruiting those with skills in short supply and refusing entry to those who do not. The UK 'open door' policy to EU migrants was part of our signing up to Maastricht and the Single European Act. We have quotas for non-EU migrants and it seems likely that the UK will find a way to restrict immigrants from Bulgaria and Romania. Only the UK and ROI allowed unlimited entrance to the citizens of the former Socialist bloc.
The ascent of UKIP will inevitably bring this issue to even greater prominence.

The Single European Act was imo one of the greatest disasters to befall Europe. Free movement of capital led to unsustainable construction booms in Spain and the ROI and to unprecedented levels of debt. Free movement of capital led to global corporations relocating to states with lower unit labour costs and fewer basic worker rights. 
Free movement of labour led to huge numbers from the former socialist bloc arriving in countries such as the UK and whilst being welcomed with open arms by large companies happy to get skilled, non-unionised labour at cheap rates, wage levels were depressed in many service sectors and locals in rural areas were excluded from the job market by Poles, Latvians etc. willing to work for a pittance and live in cramped conditions.

A Government's first duty is to the welfare of its own citizens. I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that it is a prime responsibility of government to provide a framework for full employment for its citizens. So 'British jobs for British workers' is about the only sentiment I share with former PM Gordon Brown. So too'Spanish jobs for Spanish workers'.

This isn't about race or xenophobia. We have to be clear on that. It's about numbers and protecting our citizens in times of economic hardship. I'd like to see a concentration on reviving the manufacturing sector in Spain and the UK for domestic consumption. 

Where is the sense, justice or financial logic in educating a British-born teenager only to find his/her job is taken by a Pole willing to work for three-quarters of the weekly wage? Substitute 'Spanish' and 'British'.....same applies.

I'm not against any country recruiting people from overseas when there is a shortage of a particular skill. But then it could be said that that kind of 'poaching' works against the interests of the country of origin of such workers.

If we're honest, we twenty-first century Western people see it as our 'right' to live and work anywhere on the surface of the planet. We do so from choice not necessity. We rarely consider the wider implications of that choice.
When I moved to Prague I gave zero thought to these wider implications, although I only worked there for a few hours a week - I commuted to the UK. Same when I moved to Spain. It's a choice available only to we fortunate ones, though..

I'd be interested i your thoughts


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## 213979

See, this is what I don’t understand. If we want to be Europe, we have to be Europe. If we want to be a group of independent, completely sovereign states which share the same continent and lock down borders, we must do that. What citizens are we protecting? How can we justify locking down and protecting our own citizens yet still want to participate in the European project? 



> If we're honest, we twenty-first century Western people see it as our 'right' to live and work anywhere on the surface of the planet. We do so from choice not necessity. We rarely consider the wider implications of that choice.


I am in Spain not for the fun in the sun, but rather because my husband is from here and the immigration process is/was much simpler for me to be here than for us to go back to the US. I don’t know if you’re going to classify my international marriage and subsequent immigration as choice or necessity, but the fact that I’m working here is certainly out of necessity. Should I do the right thing and quit so a local can take my job? I’m the one “bringing home the bacon” and my husband and I continue to consume. He’s less than a mileurista, despite his three university degrees. What I’m earning is going right back into the local economy. We diligently pay our taxes and our IVA. We have recently bought a car and a home. Am I harming the Spanish economy by working here? Is my friend’s girlfriend and family harming the economy by working in his bar? (He is Spanish, she is Bolivian.) 

I have never liked the x-country for x-citizens argument. It makes even less sense in a political region like the European Union with an agreement of free movement of citizens.


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## gus-lopez

elenetxu said:


> Mary, this is a very slippery slope.
> 
> My husband and I went to Germany last February. When we were there, we spoke with a local and his girlfriend and the first thing they asked us when we said we were from Spain was: "Why are you here?" After telling him we were on vacation, he began to smile at us.
> 
> Should Spaniards not go abroad to find work? Should I leave my job because I'm a foreigner, taking work away from a Spaniard? Or, should we look at it as me supporting my Spanish husband who is working 1/2 time due to cuts in education? Last year, while working in the public school system, I got this argument lobbed at me (unknowingly) in a union meeting. The union rep didn't know who I was or why I was teaching there and started railing on the fact that the government was bringing in native speakers as assistant teachers. I had to walk out. I was "taking their jobs."
> 
> Maybe I'm overly sensitive to the "They're taking our jobs!" argument since I've seen so, so much of this bologna in the US. It's bull.
> 
> Remember, part of the EU single market is the free movement of people and labor. Just last week, the EU announced plans to help migrant workers in the region:
> BBC News - EU unveils plans to help migrant workers
> 
> All I wanted to say was please be careful of the "They're taking our jobs" argument. It's a very, very slippery slope.



I had it in the UK when I moved from London to Devon! People muttering to me about " coming down here taking our jobs " . I just used to be polite & ignore it until one day, that wasn't going to well , the same old claptrap started being spouted & I blew up & explained that I didn't "come down taking their jobs ", I was invited down as no one could be found to work on , or if they could were not frightened of,ammonia systems. In addition why would I want to "steal a job in Devon " when I could be in the sun in Portugal" " Now **** off " 
Never had a problem after that.


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> I had it in the UK when I moved from London to Devon! People muttering to me about " coming down here taking our jobs " . I just used to be polite & ignore it until one day, that wasn't going to well , the same old claptrap started being spouted & I blew up & explained that I didn't "come down taking their jobs ", I was invited down as no one could be found to work on , or if they could were not frightened of,ammonia systems. In addition why would I want to "steal a job in Devon " when I could be in the sun in Portugal" " Now **** off "
> Never had a problem after that.


Liked not so much for what was said, but for showing just how easy it is for people on the outside to look in and get the wrong picture. And don't think I'm not including myself in that criticism


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## mrypg9

elenetxu said:


> See, this is what I don’t understand. If we want to be Europe, we have to be Europe. If we want to be a group of independent, completely sovereign states which share the same continent and lock down borders, we must do that. What citizens are we protecting? How can we justify locking down and protecting our own citizens yet still want to participate in the European project?
> 
> 
> 
> I am in Spain not for the fun in the sun, but rather because my husband is from here and the immigration process is/was much simpler for me to be here than for us to go back to the US. I don’t know if you’re going to classify my international marriage and subsequent immigration as choice or necessity, but the fact that I’m working here is certainly out of necessity. Should I do the right thing and quit so a local can take my job? I’m the one “bringing home the bacon” and my husband and I continue to consume. He’s less than a mileurista, despite his three university degrees. What I’m earning is going right back into the local economy. We diligently pay our taxes and our IVA. We have recently bought a car and a home. Am I harming the Spanish economy by working here? Is my friend’s girlfriend and family harming the economy by working in his bar? (He is Spanish, she is Bolivian.)
> 
> I have never liked the x-country for x-citizens argument. It makes even less sense in a political region like the European Union with an agreement of free movement of citizens.


Many Europeans see the EU in a different light since Maastricht. Before the SEA the EU was basically a trading zone. When it transformed itself into a super-state very many Europeans fell out of love with the idea of European union. 
When you think about it, the very idea of melding a collection of independent sovereign states with different cultures, traditions, languages and even laws together is an ambitious enterprise. Giving states with economies at very different stages of economic and social development a common currency was an experiment doomed to fail.

The 'free movement' etc. 'agreement' was in truth never an agreement between governments and citizens. It was an imposition and an unwelcome one in many cases. One consequence of this has been the rise all over Europe of anti-EU, anti-euro, anti-immigrant far right groups. In Holland, France, Scandinavia, the UK, Italy anti-immigration sentiments are on the rise. Even in our village anti-immigrant graffiti has appeared. Internationalism is an abstract value found chiefly among the better-off. People generally have attachments to their locality and 'tribe' which trump other obligations.

It's not for me to say whether specific foreign individuals should or shouldn't take jobs. You'd have to ask a local unemployed Spaniard. Your case is different, though, as you are part of a Spanish family. But with over six million Spaniards unemployed and here in Andalucia youth unemployment at over 70% it's a fact that every job taken by a Brit, a Romanian or whoever is a job taken from that Spaniard. The Ukrainian, Venezualan, Brit or German may go home in a few years. The Spaniard's home, family and roots are here. The Spanish state pays paro funded by Spanish working taxpayers.

I read a book a few years back by Jeremy Rifkind, 'The European Dream', in which he, an American, lauded the superiority of all things European over all things American. Whilst agreeing with much of his sentiments, I did feel that he had an overly optimistic view of what he saw as European 'integration'. 
The US of A may be a melting pot of nations but it has a common language, a common currency which works and a continental economy. It is also an integrationist society where immigrants are expected to conform to American laws and norms.
Nothing like the reality of Europe which thanks to the free market policies of the SEA is deeply divided, unequal and not very happy with the EU as it presently stands. The mainstream Parties in the UK are now licking their wounds after being savaged by UKIP, a right-wing Party which wants the UK out of Europe altogether.
I disagree strongly with UKIP as I believe in a European Union ...but not this one which has enriched the few and impoverished the many.


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## 213979

gus-lopez said:


> I had it in the UK when I moved from London to Devon! People muttering to me about " coming down here taking our jobs " . I just used to be polite & ignore it until one day, that wasn't going to well , the same old claptrap started being spouted & I blew up & explained that I didn't "come down taking their jobs ", I was invited down as no one could be found to work on , or if they could were not frightened of,ammonia systems. In addition why would I want to "steal a job in Devon " when I could be in the sun in Portugal" " Now **** off "
> Never had a problem after that.


My husband gets the same treatment for being of Basque blood and name but working in the region where we work and live.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> I had it in the UK when I moved from London to Devon! People muttering to me about " coming down here taking our jobs " . I just used to be polite & ignore it until one day, that wasn't going to well , the same old claptrap started being spouted & I blew up & explained that I didn't "come down taking their jobs ", I was invited down as no one could be found to work on , or if they could were not frightened of,ammonia systems. In addition why would I want to "steal a job in Devon " when I could be in the sun in Portugal" " Now **** off "
> Never had a problem after that.




Gus, it's ludicrous to compare moving from one area of the UK to another with the current situation in Europe. Was there mass unemployment then? Was there a deep and seemingly insoluble financial crisis? Had the Maastricht Treaty been signed then?

The situation is simple: NO country in the world operates an open door system for migrants seeking work. Is oh-so PC Canada racist because it operates a quota system based on its national needs? Is Switzerland?

If we're honest about it we move to other countries to work because we want to and because we can. Current EU laws now allow this.

But could you honestly blame any country wanting to close its doors when it has to fund over six million unemployed?


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## mrypg9

elenetxu said:


> My husband gets the same treatment for being of Basque blood and name but working in the region where we work and live.


Actually, that underlines the point I'm making. People are parochial by nature and dislike change. Unemployment always brings out the worst in people politically - you only have to look back at the history of Europe in the 1930s to see that.

In Prague we experienced hostility from locals because we were seen as wealthy westerners, which by comparison we were. It was said we were forcing up rents and prices generally - that was most probably true.
We once were told to 'Go back where you came from'. I didn't much care for that but I could see where that sentiment was coming vfrom.


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## 213979

mrypg9 said:


> Actually, that underlines the point I'm making. People are parochial by nature and dislike change. Unemployment always brings out the worst in people politically - you only have to look back at the history of Europe in the 1930s to see that.


I would argue that the flack he gets over his being Basque has nothing to do with unemployment but rather with the terrible and bloody history between these two communities and by the fact that local teachers from here can't easily move and teach in the Basque Country because of linguistic limitations. 

When the topic comes up, there can be a whole lot of hate towards Basques to be found where I am. None of it is related to unemployment.


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## mrypg9

elenetxu said:


> I would argue that the flack he gets over his being Basque has nothing to do with unemployment but rather with the terrible and bloody history between these two communities and by the fact that local teachers from here can't easily move and teach in the Basque Country because of linguistic limitations.
> 
> When the topic comes up, there can be a whole lot of hate towards Basques to be found where I am. None of it is related to unemployment.


That's interesting. The same can be said of many of the nations that make up the EU. The British post-war PM Clem Attlee, when asked about the six nations that made up the Common Market, as it then was, replied that he knew all about it as 'This country has spent a lot of blood and treasure rescuing four of them from the other two'.
I'm amazed to find that many older British immigrants here in Spain still dislike and resent Germans...Tribal sentiments give rise to powerful and often destructive emotions which we ignore at our peril.

Take a look at the current EU....Czechs and Poles have historical reasons for mutual suspicion, as have many other nations towards Germany. The rulers and masters of the EU know little about the hopes and fears of ordinary Greeks, Spaniards, Slovakians, Germans etc. How could they? They are part of a global multi-national elite, like their industrialist counterparts. 
When Mrs. Thatcher signed up to the Single European Act she had no inkling that a million Poles would take advantage of the freedom to move to the UK in search of a better life. She had no idea of the poor, depressing conditions under which citizens of the former socialist utopias lived. Who can blame people for wanting to escape from them and seek a better life? I spent a lot of time in Poland, Czechoslovakia and the former USSR under Communism and can well understand why so many Poles etc. have left their native country.

For people like you and me, moving is a free choice. You are like PW, part of Spain as you are one half of a Spanish family so neither of you is an 'outsider'. I'm 100% an outsider. But the state of the Spanish economy affects me. 
I think it is sad that so many people were basically forced to leave their countries and families in order to provide a pool of cheap labour for unscrupulous employers. The return of the exploitative Victorian gangmaster system to present-day agricultural employment in the UK is imo regrettable.

Then I think of the Chinese cockle pickers who died in Morecombe Bay. That's the very -unacceptable face of internationalism and free movement of labour.


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