# No matter how battered the economy is, over 40% expats in Spain sure euro will never



## Editor (Aug 20, 2009)

Over the last few weeks and months we have seen Greece grab the headlines with regards to economic uncertainty and the future of the euro but in the eyes of many it is actually Spain which holds the key to the future of the euro. Spain is the fourth largest economy in the Eurozone and [...]

Click to read the full news article: No matter how battered the economy is, over 40% expats in Spain sure euro will never fall...
Please come back to discuss the story here in this thread.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Editor said:


> Over the last few weeks and months we have seen Greece grab the headlines with regards to economic uncertainty and the future of the euro but in the eyes of many it is actually Spain which holds the key to the future of the euro. Spain is the fourth largest economy in the Eurozone and [...]
> 
> Click to read the full news article: No matter how battered the economy is, over 40% expats in Spain sure euro will never fall...
> Please come back to discuss the story here in this thread.


Well Greece has been in the top of the news pile for a while now, but just over the last few days Spain has taken more and more of the attention for sure.
16 banks being downgraded just last night and even Santander UK I believe has also be downgraded.
A few posts on this site seem to have missed how hard it is to find work in Spain for a while now, but it's pretty hard to miss what the reality is with the (in your face news) that's been around the last few days.

News over the last week went into much detail going right back to the earliest thoughts of the leader of Germany and France just after the war.
The thought of introducing a union between countries was all well and good and had good intentions of course but IMHO has been more of a disaster for some countries.
Germany has done very well with an effective drop in wages compared to Spain and Greece. But being locked into a single currency not able to print cash and devalue is a huge problem. But with the "Not on my shift" mentality that this singe currency was and is a huge mistake you don't even hear any talk of dismantling something that is hurting many countries and most of all their peoples.
Some how I think if the big players were hurting like some of the smaller ones they would have changed the rules by now. 

Noting the comment on “convenient leaks” regarding currency, well is it just me or has anyone noticed as soon as the pound moves up you get a news release of info like just yesterday I think from Mr King! It maybe right to mention that more printing of money might be a reality but there is always something and it seems to be just when the pound is looking a bit stronger.
China keeps their currency week, but we slag them off for doing the same thing as the UK is doing in reality!
Anyone who might like to say we need a weak pound for exports in the UK, well yeah that indeed might help, but how has the UK managed before now when the pound was at 2 dollars or 1.46 Euros!

Of course it needs a balance, but it's obvious a strong Euro isn't helping Spain or Greece. Same as if the pound is too strong for the UK.
Unless all of Europe wants to be run by Germany and Brussels outright and lose more or less all control of how each country runs their own affairs then there needs to be talk of how to have a smooth and calm way to opt out and return to individual currencies IMHO.
Who would lose the most! Germany perhaps! It has been batted about a little that actually Germany leaving the euro might be a better way to go! You don’t have to keep getting rid of jobs, keep using austerity as the only tool. Having your own currency would be much less painful for many right now!

I've been thinking about a move to Spain for some years, really a much harder decision to make even from a few weeks ago!
But with this unstable situation just rumbling on and on, pumping more and more cash into Greece that will probably never be paid back and lumbering the people with even more debt is not the way to go.
Lack of leadership or guts to put things right and remove Greece sooner than later has been a big mistake.
Markets hate indecision and this can clearly be seen with the currencies and markets in YoYo mode.

Optimism!
Well if I were in Spain right now I wouldn’t feel optimistic, but within Spain at least I would hope not too much to worry about as long as my assets were in sterling perhaps, not euros, but I also I wouldn’t feel 40% sure the Euro would never fail!
Like the Spanish banks have been sitting on assets they’ve failed to devalue and now are being told to so, the time for Europe’s so called leaders to take their heads out of the sand and remember why they are in power, to carry out the will of the people, to look after the people is long overdue.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

40% doesn't seem like a lot.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It is all speculators & gamblers ! Even the article says " investors have now turned on Spain to try & bring down the economy " .Should never be allowed ,I've been saying it for years. Anyone can gamble with someone elses money & that is what they are doing !


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Muddy said:


> in YoYo mode.
> 
> , the time for Europe’s so called leaders to take their heads out of the sand and remember why they are in power, to carry out the will of the people, to look after the people is long overdue.


And what do you consider to be the 'will of the people' I wonder?

The will of the people of Germany is not the same as the will of the people of Greece.
The will of the people of Estonia is not the same as the will of the people of Spain.

The single market as created by Maastricht serves the interests of no individual EU state or people. Germany's prosperity was built on other foundations - most recently the tough and unpopular decision by Schroeder to implement the Harz 4 reforms.

Leaders are put in power to achieve different aims. Some of these national aims conflict with other national objectives. That is why a United States of Europe is unlikely to be created in my lifetime if ever.

Another point to remember is that, to take Spain as an example, although the single market rules made it difficult if not impossible to stop the flow of cheap euro-credit, it was individual Spaniards and individual construction and real-estate companies that borrowed and created the disastrous construction boom.

Greek people were happy to take advantage of the Government's reckless borrowing which they enjoyed in the form of thousands of new and unproductive public sector jobs, inflated public sector wages and early retirement packages.

Governments in a free society cannot be entirely blamed for the behaviour of their citizens, especially when these citizens reelect them.

Governments in democracies are representative of the people, not mandated by them.

The 'will of the people' was a popular phrase in the Third Reich but had little meaning then....
In the UK the 'will of the people' has returned a messy Coalition. Recent local election results would indficate this was not whast the people willed!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> It is all speculators & gamblers ! Even the article says " investors have now turned on Spain to try & bring down the economy " .Should never be allowed ,I've been saying it for years. Anyone can gamble with someone elses money & that is what they are doing !



Blasme it on the deregulation of the financial sector, begun in the UK with the Thatcher 'Big Bang' which opened up the City and on Gordon Brown for his feeble attempts at regulation.

But thank Gordon for keeping us out of the euro.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And what do you consider to be the 'will of the people' I wonder?
> 
> The will of the people of Germany is not the same as the will of the people of Greece.
> The will of the people of Estonia is not the same as the will of the people of Spain.


Exactly right and why there should never be a united states of Europe.



> The single market as created by Maastricht serves the interests of no individual EU state or people. Germany's prosperity was built on other foundations - most recently the tough and unpopular decision by Schroeder to implement the Harz 4 reforms.


Yes but didn't Germany build its strength in part at least when it had it's own currency, but the past is the past isn't it. Now Germany is benefiting from the single currency while other EU members are suffering for it. All I'm saying here is it's an inflexible system and they should have built in a back-out clause so to avoid suffering we're seeing on this scale now. It's just incompetence on a grand scale and lack of will to fix it.


> Leaders are put in power to achieve different aims. Some of these national aims conflict with other national objectives. That is why a United States of Europe is unlikely to be created in my lifetime if ever.


I agree, and also why I think at least countries should and need to keep full control of their own affairs.



> Another point to remember is that, to take Spain as an example, although the single market rules made it difficult if not impossible to stop the flow of cheap euro-credit, it was individual Spaniards and individual construction and real-estate companies that borrowed and created the disastrous construction boom.


Yes I watched a story on this a couple of nights ago. Cheap loans available at the inception of the euro to countries that prior would not have had such low percentage rates. Imagine now offering Greece loans at 2 or 4% rather than the 28% or whatever it's at right now. No one would do that now, well no bank would.



> Greek people were happy to take advantage of the Government's reckless borrowing which they enjoyed in the form of thousands of new and unproductive public sector jobs, inflated public sector wages and early retirement packages.


True. But do you think this would have happened without the euro in place? maybe so but it hasn't helped I think.


> Governments in a free society cannot be entirely blamed for the behaviour of their citizens, especially when these citizens reelect them.


Agree, but who voted in Brown! Who would have voted for selling off gold reserves at rock bottom prices and to attack pensions!


> Governments in democracies are representative of the people, not mandated by them.
> 
> The 'will of the people' was a popular phrase in the Third Reich but had little meaning then....
> In the UK the 'will of the people' has returned a messy Coalition. Recent local election results would indficate this was not whast the people willed!


Well sure, who voted for a coalition!
Well I wouldn't in any way make a reference to what I said regarding the "will of the people" with the Third Reich! I make no correlation with that wording what so ever! But of course the people are not getting what they want now at least.
Just a small few are for sure, most of the bankers and city speculators are. Betting on oil and gas to messing with currency.
Short selling I think needs to be stopped when things are so unstable. Using that method to protect your investment is one thing, but betting on the hope of a prices falling in times like this can't be helping us the people at all!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Muddy said:


> Exactly right and why there should never be a united states of Europe.
> 
> 
> Yes but didn't Germany build its strength in part at least when it had it's own currency, but the past is the past isn't it. Now Germany is benefiting from the single currency while other EU members are suffering for it. All I'm saying here is it's an inflexible system and they should have built in a back-out clause so to avoid suffering we're seeing on this scale now. It's just incompetence on a grand scale and lack of will to fix it.
> ...



Just a quick reply to a couple of your points, I'll reply to the rest later..

Who voted in Brown? Well, who voted in Major? He became Leader, ran the country, fought and won an election...unlike Brown.
In the British system, there is no need for a General Election when a PM resigns or dies. His/her successor automatically becomes PM and is not o0bliged to call an election.
The right-wing press made a meal out of Brown's succession but were very quiet about Major...

Incidentally, Brown did not 'attack' pensions. He altered the tax on fund dividends which had an undiscernable effect on the average pension yield..

Germany's prosperity was built on the strength of its Mittelstand companies, its corporatist economic policy, its collaboration betweeen unions and management and a determination to avoid the hyperinflation of the 1920s and 30s -helped by a dollop of U.S. Marshall Aid.

Merkel's current stance is completely understandable and imo justified.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Just a quick reply to a couple of your points, I'll reply to the rest later..
> Merkel's current stance is completely understandable and imo justified.


Hi mrypg9
I normally would never even dip my toe near let alone into the political bowl, so I'll have to yield to your obvious better knowledge on this subject and the history 
Yes I agree 100% on Brown, perhaps didn't make my point clear as was about 4am I think lol
I don't like the UK system regarding how Brown or any of them get to run a country that way, it's madness to let someone lead a country that hasn't clearly and fairly been voted into that position by the people, IMHO anyway.

Well I don't know the details on pensions to be honest, but with what I've been told and what I can find with some google-ing about it seems
Brown stopped pension funds from being able to claim back the tax paid on dividends earned by pension funds.
That in the end reduced the money in the pot so to speak. Apologies if I'm not correct, just stating on what I've just read, I haven't any interest much in the subject so I haven't gone to the bother of reading up on it 

I'm not a news paper fan as I try not to read them at all, but if this is true it's suggesting Merkel's stance on Greece has softened a little!
German stance on Greek crisis softens as eurozone fears mount | World news | The Guardian
It's not very polite in sections it must be said but I think it might reflect how the Greeks might feel..
quote from Latest US news, world news, sport and comment from the Guardian | guardiannews.com | The Guardian


> " On the surface it looks as if Germans haven't had it so good in decades, allowing them to engage in navel-gazing while the rest of Europe struggles to cope with mounting debts and the challenges of Berlin-dictated austerity."


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Muddy said:


> Hi mrypg9
> I normally would never even dip my toe near let alone into the political bowl, so I'll have to yield to your obvious better knowledge on this subject and the history
> Yes I agree 100% on Brown, perhaps didn't make my point clear as was about 4am I think lol
> I don't like the UK system regarding how Brown or any of them get to run a country that way, it's madness to let someone lead a country that hasn't clearly and fairly been voted into that position by the people, IMHO anyway.
> ...




Muddy, I admire your stamina in that you are able to post lucidly and interestingly at 4.00 a.m. At that time this morning I was trying to persuade my dog to get off the bed as he was taking up one-third of it and my OH had one-half....

You are right about our system...but it's not just the 'change-over without an election' that's wrong, imo. We have in fact what could be seen as an elected dictatorship in that the PM with or without the Cabinet backing has powers absent in other democracies.
The PM still has the power to take the country to war without the consent of Parliament, I believe....it is the consent of the Sovereign which is necessary.

You can argue the pension dividend issue from both sides, to be fair. My take is that at that time the Tories were using any ammunition to throw at Brown and hyped that one beyond its real effect. But you've stimulated my curiosity into looking up the details again.
My favourite personal credo is from Cromwell's speech to the Scottish bishops:'Consider, brethren...ye may be wrong'. That and Mark Twain's 'When the facts change I change my opinions; what do you do?'

I'm a great admirer of the German economic model, or 'Ordo-economics' as it's sometimes referred to. Pioneered by Ludwig Erhard and helped by legislation introduced into the post-war British Zone of Occupation but copied in the other two zones which became the Federal Republic, it put Germany back on its feet with its model of union/employer/government consultation and co-operation, generous but affordable welfare benefits and an export-led manufacturing model.

To me it combines economic efficiency and social justice better than any other capitalist economic model and I can understand why Germans are lothe to put it in jeopardy by printing money and stimulating inflation.


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