# Probate - minimum fees?



## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

Hi All - I lost my dad suddenly earlier this year. Him and my mum have a place in Pafos, with a Cyprus will listing a Cypriot solics as the executor of the will. 

I understand Cyprus has minimum fees for probate (is this still true?). Quick google suggests c. 5%. 

The solics have said the minimum they can charge me is £3000, plus VAT, plus disbursements. 

It seems like a joke to me, especially as 1) I did it all myself in the UK and 2) The UK situation was more complicated than Cyprus. They are getting over 3 grand to issue probate on one property, with no issues of siblings, family etc. etc. or anything else.

Further, deeds have not been issued (c. 10 years on).


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi cohlas

My condolences on the loss of your father. The Cyprus Bar Association dictates minimum fees for out-of-court work, which includes administering estates. Annex F has the minimum charges for administering estates. (Note the Cyprus Bar Association does not dictate a maximum fee and I've heard from those who've been charged significantly more!)

Unfortunately as this is my first post I cannot post the link to the regulations. If you want to contact me directly I will send them to you.

If people chose to use a lawyer to administer their estte in Cyprus, IT IS ESSENTIAL that they agree the lawyers fee as a fixed sum beforehand AND HAVE THIS WRITTEN INTO THEIR WILL.

A formal complaint about the minimum fee regulations has been submitted to the European Commission on the grounds that the regulations are in breach of the European Law and in particular the provisions of Article 101 of the European Treaty.

Regards

Nigel


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Cohlas

I've just spotted the fact that Title Deeds have not been issued. If your parents bought off-plan it usually takes 10+ for the deeds to be issued.

Your mother should apply for the deeds under the provisions of the 'Trapped Buyers' law which helps those who were duped into buying property on land that the developer had earlier mortgaged to the bank (and everyone else) get their Title Deeds. The application fee is € 10.00; applications filed at teh Land Registry.

To date approximately 70,000 people have applied for their deeds but a mere 3,500 or there abouts have been issued & transferred. (The banks are playing dirty games claiming that the 'Trapped Buyers' law is unconstitutional. The matter has been referred to the Supreme Court but it may take three years until it's ruled on the matter.)

Regards

Nigel


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## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

nhowarth said:


> Hi Cohlas
> 
> I've just spotted the fact that Title Deeds have not been issued. If your parents bought off-plan it usually takes 10+ for the deeds to be issued.
> 
> ...


Thanks Nigel! Have tried to PM you but the option does not exist, not sure if it is because were are both new posters?

I have pushed back on their quote. Point noted about fixed fee, although can it be truly fixed with disbursements?

Re trapped buyers law, is this something I need to do in Cyprus? me and my mum are currently in the UK. Property was bought of plan yes, will need to check but it is around 10 years ago now. The solics did mention in the initial conversation that probate can be issued without deeds (he mentioned the term but I don't have a note of it anywhere).


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Yes - we have have five posts before we can post links, etc.

I don't think you'll be able to get a fixed fee quote unless it was written into your late father's Will. Probate is straightforward - just putting papers in at court. It's administering the estate that's expensive (acting as the executor).

A grant of probate can be issued without Title Deeds. It enables your late father's rights in the sale contract to be distributed to his estate's beneficiaries. (Probate takes around a year in Cyprus - nd all the deceased's estate is frozen until a grant of probate has been issued.)

As for the Trapped Buyers law - mum needs to be in Cyprus to do this - or she can appoint someone to do it on her behalf under a Power of Attorney agreement. But this will need he to go to a Cyprus Govt office in the UK and having the document, her signature and identity verified by a Certifying Officer (a Cyprus govt appointee). It's probably easier to do it herself when she's next here.

(I think one more post and I'll be able to post links.)

Regards

Nigel


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## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

Great - to give background. 

Will leaves the property me, and mum and dad weren't married, so is this something I will do? In reality will do it together when we both over there next year (Although when that will be is tricky). 

Point taken re probate vs. executorship. The solics had said that they are 'saving two sets of legal fees' as they can do it themselves rather than appoint another law firm (sounds like BS). The estate is rather straightforward though, its an apartment and a bank account with nothing in (I am trying to reset details from a dormant Laiki bank so that I can pay bills in the interim, although the solics have offered to help (want to keep costs down) - my latest issue is the costs to transfer money/crap exchange rate hence want my Bank of Cyprus account re-activated ASAP as I have some money there for bills.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Things may get complicated with your late father's Will. Basically the law in Cyprus changed in 2014 to bring it into line with EU regulations.

If your father made or redrafted his Will after the law changed an it included a clause along the lines of: “I, (testator's name), wish the devolution of my property in Cyprus to be governed by the Law of my Nationality, namely English Law.” you will be OK.

But if he didn't make/redraft his Will to include this clause his estate will be disposed of according to the laws of Cyprus, which include a system of 'forced heirship' preventing the testator from disinheriting close family members.

If you have any siblings and/or your father has children from an earlier marriage, I believe they will be entitled to receive a part of his estate.

As this is my sixth post I shoule be able to give you some links:

Minimum fees for out-of-court work - Annex F and related paragraphs.

Applying for Title Deeds I had this checked by senior Land Registry staff in Nicosia, including the person who drafted the law. It includes this includes links to the application form, etc.

Regards

Nigel


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## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

Thanks - will was pre 2014. 

However, I am an only child, so is mum and dad - hopefully no issues there?

Will see if I can PM you


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

one problem with lawyers being executives is that some will charge as much as 20% of the estates value. One solicitor in particular does this. Unfortunately without a set fee it is hard to do anything about this.


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## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

Post my first email back, fees have come down Euro-1000 - still makes me think 1)they were taking the mick to start with and 2) still seems expensive considering I don't imagine they will be doing much. 

they state that this is for the probate procedure, with Nigel's comments above I am worried that there may be 'additional things' required with executing the estate? Is this correct?


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Veronica said:


> one problem with lawyers being executives is that some will charge as much as 20% of the estates value.


I heard from two cousins were left three apartments by their aunt. The administration fee from their lawyer was so high they had to gift one of the apartments to her to settle their account!

But as I mentioned earlier it is possible to negotiate a fixed fee with a lawyer to administer your estate and have this written into your Will - and it's perfectly legal. Here's an extract from a letter I received from the European Commission Directorate General Internal Market and Services following a complaint I made in 2013:

_"Cypriot authorities stated that current legislation allows lawyers to enter into an agreement on their fee, for services both in and out of court, provided that they sign a special retainer agreement at the start of the case with their client. This may take the form of an inclusive payment or a commission (percentage) or a salary or some other means and may be similar to, less than or greater than the fee which the lawyer would otherwise be entitled to receive according to the published scale. The lawyer and the client may also enter into an agreement regarding the method of payment for extrajudicial costs incurred in connection with a case.

Cypriot authorities informed us that the minimum published fees apply only when there is no written agreement between the parties."_

The problem is, as many have found to their cost, lawyers in Cyprus keep quiet about this.

Regards,


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

nhowarth said:


> I heard from two cousins were left three apartments by their aunt. The administration fee from their lawyer was so high they had to gift one of the apartments to her to settle their account!
> 
> But as I mentioned earlier it is possible to negotiate a fixed fee with a lawyer to administer your estate and have this written into your Will - and it's perfectly legal.
> Cypriot authorities informed us that the minimum published fees apply only when there is no written agreement between the parties."[/I]
> ...


Unfortunately though in this case it is too late. The lawyer I referred to who is known to charge exorbitant fees for executorship is a female who unfortunately many UK expats used when first coming over here because unscrupulous developers and agents recommended her because she would be working on their behalf more than the clients.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Unfortunately Veronica I received another email this morning about these damn minimum fees and another 'crook' masquerading as a lawyer.

When the couple drew up their Wills they were told by this lawyer that only someone who was domiciled in Cyprus could be appointed as their executors.

The widow's lawyer is charging her 9 per cent of the value of the apartment – the contract to purchase the property was in the sole name of the husband.

This crook of a lawyer has told her to sell the apartment to pay her fee and that she could arrange this if the widow handed over the keys.


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## Big Mark (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm sorry for your loss,

Can I recommend you run things by Marion Carter Tel: 24636115, a UK & Cyprus will specialist lawyer who really knows her stuff and has reasonable charges.

I can't recommend her highly enough, our situation was particularly complex and resulted in us having separate wills in different jurisdictions to allow my Dad to distribute his estate to his wishes. She is articulate and able to communicate complex issues in a way my Dad could understand.

I found her through recommendations on another forums with around 50 people commenting on how good she was. We had similar experiences.

I have no affiliation with her or any benefit from recommending her, I remember being so worried about the complex rule changes and she sorted everything out quickly and to our satisfaction. She's based in Larnanca but visits Paphos weekly.

We will be using her services again when the sad day comes that we need to.

Good luck,

Mark.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Mark - I advise people to use a lawyer on the list provided by the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office and negotiate a fixed sum for administering their estate and have this written into their Wills.

(As my wife and I own property in the UK and Cyprus, we had two Wills each prepared for the different jurisdictions.)

Regards


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

nhowarth said:


> Unfortunately Veronica I received another email this morning about these damn minimum fees and another 'crook' masquerading as a lawyer.
> 
> When the couple drew up their Wills they were told by this lawyer that only someone who was domiciled in Cyprus could be appointed as their executors.
> 
> ...


We hear this so often.  There are some excellent lawyers in Paphos but also some that are in it to make as money as they can in any way they can with no thought to how much grief they cause. However the widow in the case you quote is lucky as she could have been charged as much as 20% as some crooked lawyers do. 

I really cannot understand though why any couple would not have their property purchase in both names. Especially in a foreign country.


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## cohlas (Dec 5, 2017)

If the will states that they are the executor, do I need to go through them i.e. using them as executor and another firm for probate etc, will be 2 x fees? is 2k reasonable for a 90k apartment simple estate i.e. property goes to me - no brothers sisters aunts et.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi cohlos

As the lawyer is named in your later father's Will you cannot use another lawyer.

I feel that €2k is reasonable (it's actually less than the minimum fee lawyers are supposed to charge). If your parents bought the property in joint names the value of your late fathers estate would be €45k (half value of the apartment) + other assets. As it's being left to you there should be no complications hopefully.

Regards,


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## acley (Jun 12, 2018)

Hi, 
I am interested to get a copy of the minimum fees regulation rules please send me link. Has a decision been made at the European commission where the rules were being challenged?
Thank you.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi acley

Here is the Cyprus Bar Association’s minimum fees for out-of-court work.

And yes - the challenge by ‘Fairness in Fees‘ has been successful (I reported a couple of weeks ago - Lawyers’ price-fixing challenge success.)

This hasn't been widely reported in the local media and the Advocates Law and Regulations have yet to be changed.

I am waiting for the judgement of the EC, but this could take a month or two.

Regards,


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## acley (Jun 12, 2018)

Hallow Nigel. 

Here is my case, a lawyer wrote me an email that I have been sued I simply told him an email back to represent me. We didn't enter a formal retainer agreement so there are no terms on how he is to charge me. what is the position..?


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hello acley

It sounds to me as if you wrote your lawyer a blank cheque.

Regards,


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## acley (Jun 12, 2018)

Oh! really.

Now are there rules on court appearance apart from these ones you shared?


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

I'm afraid so - by failing to discuss and agree his fees before instructing him to act on your behalf (as you would when contracting any service) you've effectively written him a blank cheque. He will charge you the minimum fees for the out-of-court as prescribed by the regulations.

The are no minimum fees prescribed for appearances at court.

(The current legislation allows lawyers to enter into an agreement on their fee, for services both in and out of court, provided they sign a special retainer agreement at the start of the case with their client. This could be less or more than the fee the lawyer would otherwise be entitled to receive according to the published scale)

Regards


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