# HSBC duplicate statements-worried!!!



## Karra (Jun 6, 2013)

My husband found out yesterday that the statements from HSBC will be the duplicates and they will not stamp or give him a letter confirming their authenticity. I keep reading to find an answer but seems like I am stuck. 
Any advise or reassurance that they are ok for UKBA? Otherwise what can we do?

Joppa, your opinion is very important. Thank you.


----------



## Lorelli (Jan 6, 2012)

Did you not receive the answer required on *this* thread?


----------



## Karra (Jun 6, 2013)

I have read some controversial opinions about this matter. I just want to make sure and hope that Joppa will advice me.


----------



## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

As you have already been correctly advised, duplicate statements ordered from the bank are acceptable and to not require authentication from your bank.


----------



## Karra (Jun 6, 2013)

Thank you Nyclon.


----------



## UKPS (Dec 24, 2013)

Is this for Spouse visa or other family application? If so, Appendix FM-SE is the regulation.

I have exactly the same from HSBC.
The regulations (Appendix FM-SE) say:

(1) on official bank stationery; or
(2) electronic bank statements which are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

Notice the 'or' between 1 and 2. As long as it is on official bank stationery, which duplicates normally are, you (we) should be fine. No need for stamp or other letter.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

But if the duplicate 'looks' like just printed on ordinary office paper, then doubt remains.


----------



## UKPS (Dec 24, 2013)

Doubt might remain but that's their problem. They cannot reject (or say that they reject) the evidence because you didn't back it up with something else. The requirement is clear that you don't have to.

It is thus for them to allege that it is a forgery. This is a very serious claim and the burden shifts to them to show that. They cannot just say they have doubts. They have to prove it.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

They can just say that they have doubt over its authenticity and should have been stamped by the bank. You don't seem to know much about how ECO operates. It's not up to them to prove it's a forgery- it's up to the applicant to show it isn't, as ECO can reach a decision on the balance of probabilities.


----------



## Karra (Jun 6, 2013)

Joppa said:


> But if the duplicate 'looks' like just printed on ordinary office paper, then doubt remains.



May I ask what does just printed on ordinary paper mean? Like no logo, or color?


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Compare the paper stock used for original statement with the one described as duplicate. If they are different in terms of thickness, smoothness or tint, then doubt may be cast and you should get it authenticated or certified.


----------



## JrmHarding (Jan 6, 2014)

There is very noticeable difference between printed statements on paper from your printer, and HSBC headed paper. That’s what Joppa is referring to.

Printed statements have a small logo on the corner, clearly pixelated rather than clear and the statement breakdown is much more basic. Printed statements don’t have your address on where as the duplicate items that you will order do. I’m with HSBC, they work! We got approved using the duplicates!


----------



## Karra (Jun 6, 2013)

Yes, my husband checked some previous ones he had and says they look "good".


----------



## UKPS (Dec 24, 2013)

Joppa said:


> They can just say that they have doubt over its authenticity and should have been stamped by the bank. You don't seem to know much about how ECO operates. It's not up to them to prove it's a forgery- it's up to the applicant to show it isn't, as ECO can reach a decision on the balance of probabilities.


I am not so sure:

UK Border Agency | RFL04 - Deception in an application - paragraph 320(7A)

Regarding Deception in an application.
See RFL 4.2:

"...The legal standard of proof is 'balance of probabilities', so it must be more likely than not that the falsehood has been used. It is for us to prove that an applicant has used falsehood. This means that it is not enough for us simply to doubt that the applicant is telling the truth. In order to refuse under this Rule, we need positive evidence that they have used deception or false representations, or that a document that they have submitted is false..."

There is also an interesting flow chart on exactly what process to follow if they suspect forgery.


----------



## JrmHarding (Jan 6, 2014)

UKPS said:


> I am not so sure:
> 
> UK Border Agency | RFL04 - Deception in an application - paragraph 320(7A)
> 
> ...


Having just applied and debating on whether to use printed statements or duplicate/received in the post statements, I can tell you fully well that if printed statements were not stamped with a letter proving they are genuine, then the applicant would be refused. The difference between the two is vast and online statements printed would be very simple to forge.

Experience in this matter is vital. Copying and pasting extracts from guidelines is not good enough to advise someone.


----------



## UKPS (Dec 24, 2013)

The point is they are obliged to have positive evidence of forgery. They cannot just ignore this guideline and the original one from Appendix FM-SE which maintains that all that is needed are the printed statements.

What is their positive evidence of forgery?


----------



## JrmHarding (Jan 6, 2014)

3.3.4. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery. Alternatively electronic bank 
statements can also be accepted for all bank accounts (the account itself does not have to 
be exclusively online) as long as they are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on 
its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official 
stamp of the issuing bank on every page. 

The positive evidence of forgery is that there would be nothing to authenticate the statement as genuine. Therefore the document is redundant. Arguing this point is also redundant. I find it very surprising that you are ultimately advising something that could more than likely have a persons application refused. I also find it surprising you are arguing the point with Joppa, considering his absolute wealth of knowledge and experience.


----------



## UKPS (Dec 24, 2013)

Let me space this to make it clearer. I will also embolden.

3.3.4. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery. 

*Alternatively* electronic bank 
statements can also be accepted for all bank accounts (the account itself does not have to 
be exclusively online) as long as they are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on 
its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official 
stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

My understanding is that we are not talking about statements one prints out at home from online statements (the second ones in your list), but ones that come from HSBC directly as a duplicate (the first ones). 

I can also tell you from direct personal experience that the duplicate directly from HSBC (printed at their branch), is NOT always exactly the same as the ones they may send in the post. However it is still directly from HSBC and on their official stationery.

Positive evidence of forgery cannot simply be absence of authentication. That is why they specifically separated the two out (i.e official and ones you print yourself) and only on the ones you print, is authentication needed (and they do not need to prove forgery with those since you also needed to provide authentication).

I do not doubt Joppa's knowledge and experience, but his claim that it is up to the applicant to prove it isn't a forgery (again, only talking about the ones ACTUALLY printed by HSBC), is flatly contradicted by their own guidelines "...it is for us to prove that an applicant has used falsehood...". This applies to all documents.

This is nothing personal. But it is as well to advise an applicant what their rights actually are even if ECOs don't actually follow the law or their own guidelines.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

UKPS - you are just reading off website without personal experience with ECO. Remember they are GUIDELINES, not the full statement of the law or regulations, and ECO has a great degree of discretionary power in deciding on applications. I speak from experience over 40+ years.


----------

