# On Naturalization in Mexico



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I, at age 72, have just received (late March 2014) approval of my application for Mexican citizenship which application was filed with the SRE in Guadalajara in the latter part November, 2013 which means the application process in my case from submission to approval of naturalization took four months which is better than I expected since I was warned at the time I submitted my application that it might take up to six months for approval. Now, I must, return to SRE in Guadalajara to receive my Mexican Passport when I return from Chiapas in April and then must go to IFE in Jocotepec on Lake Chapala to register to vote in the Chapala Municipality which is important whether I intend to vote or not since the voter registration card is the basic identification card for Mexican citizens. 

I am writing this to clarify for expats in Mexico my experience which may help expats who seek to become Mexican citizens which, in my opinión, is a good idea for those who plan to acquire property down here and wish to protect their immigration status and property rights and is also a good idea for those wishing to adopt Mexico as their homeland for the duration simply because that demonstrates mutual respect between you and your new chosen homeland and, believe me, your gesture will be regarded well among those with whom you must deal to accomplish this task as long as you remain civil.

My wife and I, French and U.S., citizens respectively, retired here in 2001 at Lake Chapala, first as FM-3 (temporary) and then as FM-2 (permanent) visa holders under the old system before the implementation of the new immigration law in 2013which re-defined immigration status for expats. We achieved "Inmigrado" status in November, 2010 - a visa status which no longer exists as such but is now defined as "Residente Permanente" status. The reader will need to investigate the minimal residency and financial requirements for achieving the immigration steam and then naturalization under the new law but remember that for naturalization you will be dealing with SRE, not INM. Entirely different bureaucracies and SRE, while enforcing stringent requirements, can be easier to deal with than INM in both Guadalajara/Chapala and Tuxtla Gutiérrez but I can´t speak with knowledge about other SRE and INM offices.

Here is what I can pass on to you:
* If you are over 60 years old, at least in the SRE offices in Guadalajara, the capital of Jalisco and Tuxtla Gutiérrez, the capital of Chiapas, you will not be required to take the standard Mexican cultural/history test as required of younger people and you can also submit your application and receive approval even if your Spanish language skills are marginal at best and you have difficulty communicating with the SRE personnel.
* The people working at SRE in Guadalajara and Tuxtla Gutierrez could not be nicer but do not typically speak English so you may wish to submit your application in the company of an interpreter if your Spanish is elemental. The people with whom you will be dealing at SRE will probably be pleasant and accomodating but I would not recommend going there with a profesional facilitator. SRE is not INM.
* You will be required to " renounce" the citizenship of your homeland upon having been granted Mexican citizenship but this is simply a formality and only locally honored and enforced so always remember that, while you are in Mexico, you are Mexican. Period. Don´t forget that.
* If you plan to apply for Mexican citizenship somewhere down the line, you will have to show that, for a period of years prior to your application, you were out of the country for no more than the number of months designated as aceptable under the law as evidenced by stamps rendered by immigration officials in your passport so avoid trips out of Mexico beyomnd the times currently allowed or your application may be rejected.

More later if anyone is interested.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> […]
> More later if anyone is interested.


I am interested. I concur about the difference between SRE and INM. I talked to SRE about my eligibility and it was a pleasant experience. No line and a friendly person with time to answer my question. I was told I have a year to wait, since my first two years on an FM-3 don't count.

PS In a way I would be sorry not to have to take the cultural/history test. I looked at the questions and it seemed like it would be a good way to force myself to learn more about Mexico.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

You can always do what I did. I studied for it and then found out there would not be a test. Most questions are extremely simple so I am not sure ow much you have to study for it or how much you know once you have studied.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> You can always do what I did. I studied for it and then found out there would not be a test. Most questions are extremely simple so I am not sure ow much you have to study for it or how much you know once you have studied.


The questions did look simple and I guessed that I already knew about half of the answers, but would have to do a little investigating for the other half.

You are right of course, I could just study without the push from a requirement, but it adds motivation.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok time to study or google the answers for the other 50! Sorry if you have lived here for a few years I doubt that you will have 50 questions to look up.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

By the way, are you having any name problems, or is it going smoothly? Are you using your birth name? With a single surname?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I dropped my husband´s name which only was an aka on my passport and everything went fine. 

I was naturalized under my birthname and onl kept one name no problem from the SRE.

My husband also got naturalized under is birth certificate name and having one last name was not a problem for him either.


The hick ups comes from some system in banks and other institution that may require two names but it is legal to go by one name.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

My big doubt is that if I get naturalized with my birth name, how will my new naturalized Mexican name (with a single surname) be integrated (or not) with my current Mexican name (as a foreign permanent resident) which has two surnames? 

All the accounts and identity numbers that I already have – bank and credit cards, Hacienda (RFC), my CURP, my driver’s license, etc. would then be based on a different name (two surnames) than my naturalized Mexican name (one surname).


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The bank told me it was no problem changing the name but I have not done that yet I have not changed or try to change the curp yet which I am sure will be another battle..The driver´s license I have to change as it shows I am a foreigner and that is not legal..

I asked that same question to a notary as the deeds show a different name so do the will and other papers, he told me he could do a type of constancia (it is not called that I will tell you when I go back as I have an appointment in May when I go back to Jalisco) showing all your AKA..

I will have the notario do the paper and then see what I can do about the curp as i have the same questions as you have.

I got the passport with one name first , then I applied for the credential , then I will go fo rthe driver´s license and will address the CURP and RFC in May when I get back to Jalisco.
I will let you know what happen. Other people have to have the same problem it would be nice to hea from them so we do not have to reinvent the wheel.

By the way There is a woman named Esperanza who posts on other forum. She just went through this mess in Mexico city and her wife fought back to keep the name she had which was the name of an ex and she won so since you are in DF you may want to do the same thing and see what happens.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

Yes, I saw that post. It’s encouraging. There’s also someone else in a Facebook group for expats who told her story of submitting her nationalization recently with the name she’s known under (not her birth name) – she had to get a whole lot of documents to do so, but they let her submit, and now she is waiting to see what the result will be.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes if her name is Judith it is the same person. She fought it tooth and nail and she finally prevailed so you could try to do the same if that does not work you can always go back to your maiden name and worry about the other papers..

Talk to the SRE they may have changed their mind, you just never know.

.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Renouncing one's citizenship in a country to accept citizenship in another is a serious matter. There's loyalty to only one country, let's not be confused about that.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes you are right and it seems to me you should be loyal to the country where you live .


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> Renouncing one's citizenship in a country to accept citizenship in another is a serious matter. There's loyalty to only one country, let's not be confused about that.


We should be clear what we are talking about. When you renounce your citizenship in another country to accept citizenship in Mexico, you are just telling Mexico that when you are in Mexico you will be treated as a Mexican citizen. It has nothing to do with your citizenship in the US. The US and Mexico allow dual citizenship. (Dual Nationality | Embassy of the United States Mexico City, Mexico). This is not true of all countries. For example, my daughter has lived in Germany for many years. She could not become a German citizen without giving up her US citizenship. 

Countries differ. I do not know how Canada or France, for example, view dual citizenship.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

France allows dual citizenship as well French in France and Mexican in Mexico and whatever you chose in the rest of the world.

As you say Tundragreen you only give up your nationality while in Mexico and that is what the SRE tells you . They say" we do not care what nationality you claim when you are not in Mexico but if you say away from Mexico ".

So Longford can you tell us the downside of being dual citizens?
The loyalty to only one country is important in case of a draft or a war but at 60 or 70 it is a whole less important. Many of my relatives are dual citizens and we have not seen any downside to it yet.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> We should be clear what we are talking about. When you renounce your citizenship in another country to accept citizenship in Mexico, you are just telling Mexico that when you are in Mexico you will be treated as a Mexican citizen. It has nothing to do with your citizenship in the US. The US and Mexico allow dual citizenship. (Dual Nationality | Embassy of the United States Mexico City, Mexico). This is not true of all countries. For example, my daughter has lived in Germany for many years. She could not become a German citizen without giving up her US citizenship.
> 
> Countries differ. I do not know how Canada or France, for example, view dual citizenship.


We met an American lady in San Miguel who had been there more than 20 years, ran a successful business, had two sons who were both American and Mexican citizens. One joined the U.S. Navy and was required to renounce his Mexican citizenship to do so. She said didn't matter, Mexico still recognized him as a citizen of Mexico.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

. yes and if Mexico wanted him in the armed forces for whatever reason he would have to serve or lose his citizenship.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Longford said:


> Renouncing one's citizenship in a country to accept citizenship in another is a serious matter. There's loyalty to only one country, let's not be confused about that.


I see jingoism is alive and well on this fórum at least as expressed by one participating chauvinist. Rational contributors to this discussion understand that when Mexico agrees to permit extranjeros to become naturalized Mexican citizens, it expects that, while that applicant is resident in Mexico, he/she will regard Mexican sovereignty as the law by which he/she will conduct his/her affairs. The United States does not give a damn about this procedure and the U.S. citixen in no way compromises his/her legal standing in the United States by agreeing the when in Mexico, they conduct themselves in accordance with Mexican law and customs. 

To actually alienate oneself from citizenship in the United States would require that one denounce that status within the U.S. legal system and, as far as I am concerned, that is not even a remote possibility.

As a U.S. patriot, I am somewhat offended that my motive in seeking and having been granted Mexican citizenship after having lived here full time for over more than 13 years is designated by one member here as an act of disloyalty to my native land. Dawg grew up in a middle-class and enlightened environment in South Alabama, a more patriotic región of the U.S. which cannot be found, and moved on to San Francisco in adulthood while traveling extensively throughout Europe, Africa and India and, at one time as a Young man, considered seeking citizenship in such far-flung places as France, (pre-Idi Amin) Uganda and India. These pipe dreams eventually vanished (thank providence as I was just a kid)but none of those dreams, had they come to fruition, meant that I had rejected citizenship in my home country.

I urge all expats who are tentatively thinking of seeking Mexican citizenship to ignore the comments of our Chicago amigo and go for that status in regard for your own personal interests if nothing else. After all, who in hell has moved to Chicago in the past 100 years except for a job opportunity.


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

The NPR website reported a record number of US citizens renouncing their citizenship last year, implication being that new tax laws such as FATCA are responsible:
Why More Americans Are Renouncing U.S. Citizenship : Parallels : NPR
I'd venture a guess that most typical US expats who become naturalized in Mexico keep their US citizenship as well as acquiring the new one.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

Canada has allowed dual (in fact, multiple) citizenship since 1977.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


makaloco said:



I'd venture a guess that most typical US expats who become naturalized in Mexico keep their US citizenship as well as acquiring the new one.

Click to expand...

_Correcto, makaloco:

Or their French citizenship I might add from personal experience.

Today, my darlin´ wife would be a French/U.S./Mexican citizen had not the INS thugs manning the immigration branch office in San Francisco back in the 1970s been such morons making it impossible for French folks (or anybody else, for that matter) to acquire U.S. citizenship without endlessly running a gauntlet of imbecilic functionaries. We used to lament the fact that she had not sought U.S. citizenship at the New Orleans INS offices when we lived in Mobile in an earlier time since the attitude toward French immigrant applicants was more enlightened in New Orleans than in San Francisco in those days.

Sort of reminds me of a time in the late 1970s when we had decided to take a sojourn into the then dangerous Middle East including a visit to the then mysterious land of Iraq. I called the Iraqí consulate in Washington, D.C. and inquired of the consulate oficial who answered the phone in the visa section as to what was required to get a tourist visa to visit Iraq and his response was, "Now, why would you want to do that?" We ended up with tickets to Algeria as North Africa seemed close enough to Iraq and, besides, the food was better..


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

Hound Dog said:


> I called the Iraqí consulate in Washington, D.C. and inquired of the consulate oficial who answered the phone in the visa section as to what was required to get a tourist visa to visit Iraq and his response was, "Now, why would you want to do that?"


On a similar note, I worked in Turkey for a summer in the late '70s and got this remark from a Turkish man: "You come from the best country. What are you doing HERE?" I guess the grass is always greener …
Your darlin' wife and I should have traded places. In the mid-'70s I was dying to move to France, but they had recently cracked down on residence and work permits for foreigners.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry makaloco in 70 I was off to the States...it was never met to be.

Which country do you come from?


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

citlali said:


> . yes and if Mexico wanted him in the armed forces for whatever reason he would have to serve or lose his citizenship.


Even if born in Mexico?


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

citlali said:


> Sorry makaloco in 70 I was off to the States...it was never met to be.
> Which country do you come from?


I'm originally from the US but haven't lived there much since the mid-'70s and not at all since 1982. So I've been an expat for a long time, though not quite as long as you have!


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

makaloco said:


> On a similar note, I worked in Turkey for a summer in the late '70s and got this remark from a Turkish man: "You come from the best country. What are you doing HERE?" I guess the grass is always greener …
> Your darlin' wife and I should have traded places. In the mid-'70s I was dying to move to France, but they had recently cracked down on residence and work permits for foreigners.


You are a fairly amusing person. makaloco, so I´lll enjoy sharing this story with you which is authentic in every detail. 

We had decided, a few years ago to move from the insufferable Lake Chapala community of Ajijic to the seemingly charming community of Fortin de Las Flores in the Orizaba-Cordoba urban corridor between Puebla and Veracruz. We arrived in Fortin during a period when the weather was excellent and that town, as its name suggests, was filled with pleasant and viewable garden estates which we found enchanting and the climate then was serene so we thought to sell our home at Lake Chapala and move to this seemingly enchanting garden-like small community and so we inquired about the town as to whether there was real estate available there and what price range we might anticipate.

We received many answers but to sum up the communal spirit in general in Fortin, the composite response was, "You want to move here when all we natives desire in life is to get the hell out of here?"

We bought in Highland Chiapas instead.

Always remember that, just because you arrive in a community on a fine spring day when the birds are singing and the flowers in bloom, doesn´t mean Satan is not waiting in the wings.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

maesonna said:


> Canada has allowed dual (in fact, multiple) citizenship since 1977.


My Canadian born children are eligible for both US citizenship through me and Mexican citizenship through their father. If they grow up to marry someone from another country, they just might be eligible for a fourth citizenship. 

I am personally of the persuasion of loyalty to the planet as a whole, as opposed to one chunk of it based on borders (which in many parts of the world are frequently disputed and redrawn, most often through armed conflict), and that if we break down the "us vs. them" mentality the world would be a better and safer place. I agree with Citlali that when residing in a given country, one must respect the laws and mores of that country. It does get trickier in countries where there are flagrant human rights violations, wholesale massacres of unarmed civilians, and judicial impunity, such as Guatemala & El Salvador in the late 1970's and throughout the 1980's. 

I also think it ironic that those in the wealthier countries want free movement of natural resources and other goods around the globe (which will generally be of relatively more benefit to the "haves" than the have-nots"), yet are opposed to the freer movement of people across borders - well at least the freer movement of "them" coming to "US", as there does seem to be an expectation that "we" should be allowed to travel wherever we want. Just sayin'.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Vantexan I have no idea what Mexico would do in a case of native born Mexicans refusing to serve if they were called but considering how patriotic most Mexicans are , I would think the pressure ro conform.

Loyalty in case times of peace is very understated and as people are intermarrying much more than they used to I think it will becone more and more muddled. I would think that most people would be loyal to the country where they and their chidren live and would take the side or would be loyal to the places that protects their family but it can become a very difficult issue.


I think the loyalty becomes an issue in case of a war. I know Alsatians in Eastern Fance that had that problem as the area got annexed back and forth between France and Germany a few time and one day they were French and served with the French and the other day they were Germans and served with the Germans. A friend of my father was drafted by France served in the French army then Alsace became German and he was drafted byt the German army. He deserted and was condemned to be executed. The men who had to execute him were his ex buddies and they managed to miss his vital organs. He was left for dead and his family hid him for the rest of the war.
Most old Alsations I know hate Germany but look German, sound German and speak their Germanic dialect plus German and French and if they could would be independent.
They are all Alsations first, that is what happen when you are pulled back and forth by various countries..


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Hound Dog said:



I, at age 72, have just received (late March 2014) approval of my application for Mexican citizenship which application was filed with the SRE in Guadalajara in the latter part November, 2013 which means the application process in my case from submission to approval of naturalization took four months which is better than I expected since I was warned at the time I submitted my application that it might take up to six months for approval. Now, I must, return to SRE in Guadalajara to receive my Mexican Passport when I return from Chiapas in April and then must go to IFE in Jocotepec on Lake Chapala to register to vote in the Chapala Municipality which is important whether I intend to vote or not since the voter registration card is the basic identification card for Mexican citizens. ....

Click to expand...

_


Hound Dog said:


> Yes, I know, I know, it´s tacky to quote oneself but since I started all this back in March and have some new information that might prove important to those contemplating applying for naturalization here in Mexico, I thought I would re-open the thread.
> 
> I was notified that my application had been approved and that, from March 31, 2014 I could set up an appointment with SRE in Guadalajara to come in for my new Mexican Passport, an appointment for which must be affected within a couple of months. Keep in mind that we reside in both Jalisco and Chiapas and are currently in Chiapas at this writing but soon to return to the Guadalajara área for that passport but, in the interim between my application for Mexican citizenship and approval for naturalization, I (all to cleverly) went down to the driver´s license bureau in San Cristóbal de Las Casas , turned in my soon-to-expire Jalisco driver´s license and received, in lieu, a permanent Chiapas driver´s license - yes - in Chiapas you can, for the appropriate augmented fee, get a driver´s license good for life. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Unfortunately, that permanent Chiapas license identified me, rightly at the time, as an "extranjero" or "foreigner" and, unbeknowst to me at the time, under Mexican law, once I become a mexican citizen, that license is no longer legal and I must seek a new driver´s license designating me a Mexican citizen, That´s OK and understandable but I will not be back in Chiapas until next December so must go and seek another Jalisco license once I have been naturalized this May to see me through until then. I was wondering if this was a serious matter so consulted with my insurance agent and have been enlightened on the subject. It is, it turns out, serious indeed. To sum up his reaction, if I, in the interim, have a traffic accident or receive a "multa" for a traffic violation and my residency/citizenship status according to my immigration papers is inconsistent with my status as shown on the driver´s license, there can be all sorts of ugly legal ramifications the litany of which I won´t bore the reader with but, to summarize, once I have the Passport, I must immediately apply for a new driver´s license affirming that status on the document itself. So, off to the Jalisco driver´s license burea I go again with fingers crossed.
> 
> I should start thinking like my indigenous friend from Oaxaca who has plenty of assets at risk. She drives without a driver´s license and, when I admonished her as to the dangers of that practice and that fact the without a driver´s license, her insurance woild not pay and she could end up in the cooler consideraby poorer if she ever had an accident; her response was, "What insurance?"


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

ojosazules11 said:


> I also think it ironic that those in the wealthier countries want free movement of natural resources and other goods around the globe (which will generally be of relatively more benefit to the "haves" than the have-nots"), yet are opposed to the freer movement of people across borders - well at least the freer movement of "them" coming to "US", as there does seem to be an expectation that "we" should be allowed to travel wherever we want. Just sayin'.


Sounds a lot like Canada, and it's relatively harsh treatment of Mexicans who want to work/live there. But no country that I know of is supporting open borders ... including Mexico which has been particularly harsh on Central Americans and which has sought to further restrict expat immigration to the "haves." The "have nots" do, very often, benefit from free trade through lower prices for merchandise they purchase (just look at the customer base of a Wal Mart in major USA cities ... it's the "have nots" more than the "have's" I believe). In Mexico, free trade has been a double-edge sword. Vast segments of the population has benefited by gaining access to goods/services they didn't have before. Jobs have increased, and also decreased in some industries (shoes, as one example).


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> I was notified that my application had been approved and that, from March 31, 2014 I could set up an appointment with SRE in Guadalajara to come in for my new Mexican Passport, an appointment for which must be affected within a couple of months. Keep in mind that we reside in both Jalisco and Chiapas and are currently in Chiapas at this writing but soon to return to the Guadalajara área for that passport but, in the interim between my application for Mexican citizenship and approval for naturalization, I (all to cleverly) went down to the driver´s license bureau in San Cristóbal de Las Casas , turned in my soon-to-expire Jalisco driver´s license and received, in lieu, a permanent Chiapas driver´s license - yes - in Chiapas you can, for the appropriate augmented fee, get a driver´s license good for life. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Unfortunately, that permanent Chiapas license identified me, rightly at the time, as an "extranjero" or "foreigner" and, unbeknowst to me at the time, under Mexican law, once I become a mexican citizen, that license is no longer legal and I must seek a new driver´s license designating me a Mexican citizen, That´s OK and understandable but I will not be back in Chiapas until next December so must go and seek another Jalisco license once I have been naturalized this May to see me through until then. I was wondering if this was a serious matter so consulted with my insurance agent and have been enlightened on the subject. It is, it turns out, serious indeed. To sum up his reaction, if I, in the interim, have a traffic accident or receive a "multa" for a traffic violation and my residency/citizenship status according to my immigration papers is inconsistent with my status as shown on the driver´s license, there can be all sorts of ugly legal ramifications the litany of which I won´t bore the reader with but, to summarize, once I have the Passport, I must immediately apply for a new driver´s license affirming that status on the document itself. So, off to the Jalisco driver´s license burea I go again with fingers crossed.
> 
> I should start thinking like my indigenous friend from Oaxaca who has plenty of assets at risk. She drives without a driver´s license and, when I admonished her as to the dangers of that practice and that fact the without a driver´s license, her insurance woild not pay and she could end up in the cooler consideraby poorer if she ever had an accident; her response was, "What insurance?"


Isn't it fun to live in Mexico. I take a sort of perverse delight in figuring out and dealing with the bureaucracy here.

The good news for you, is that the Guadalajara driver's license office was one of the easier offices to deal with when I got my driver's license there last summer.

Your post was a heads up for me that I will have reapply for a driver's license in a year or so if I am successful in my attempt to attain citizenship.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

TundraGreen said:


> Isn't it fun to live in Mexico. I take a sort of perverse delight in figuring out and dealing with the bureaucracy here.
> 
> The good news for you, is that the Guadalajara driver's license office was one of the easier offices to deal with when I got my driver's license there last summer.
> 
> Your post was a heads up for me that I will have reapply for a driver's license in a year or so if I am successful in my attempt to attain citizenship.


I second TG´s comment about the Guadalajara driver´s license office which is the office I visited a few years ago when my old Jalisco driver´s license originally issued in Chapala had been stolen by a couple of crooked cops in Tapachula. Fortunately, I had copies of the stolen license which I presented there which, in short order, was certified by them for a small fee and getting a replacement license was a breeze and accomplished in less than two hours dealing with courteous personnel without even a hint of corruption of any sort. A welcome difference from the old den of thieves manning the Riberas del Pilar transito office (now closed) in Chapala. The Guadalajara office was a model of efficiency even though it was crowded with applicants for licenses. Forget Chapala, I would always drive to Guadalajara to avoid the often opportunistic transito personnel assigned by the state to the Chapala municipality. A difference in leadership and priorities I would guess.

By the way, we have lived in both Chapala and San Cristóbal de Las Casas for a total of 13 years and the contrast between the two municipalities is striking. The transito goons are always working the streets of Chapala from the Poncitlan to the Jocotepec and Ixtlahuacan ines with some favored money raising scams but in all the eight years we have also lived in San Cristóbal I have never seen anybody get a ticket - even when often deserved. There are not that many foreigners to prey on in Chiapas as there are in Chapala and the local Chiapanecos do not roll over easily.


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