# Problem With Roofing Company



## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Back in Feb of 2013, we hired a local roofing company here in Cebu to install our roof. However, last month I went up into our attic to do some work on the bathroom, and I noticed that I could see daylight through some empty empty rivet holes. I got someone from the roofing company to come out and take a look, and he stated that the installation crew did a bad job, and he would send someone out to do repairs free of charge. 

I waited a few days, but no one showed up, and when I called them on the phone they said that I would have to cover the cost of doing repairs myself. I told them that we are currently building another house in our compound, and that if would like to place a bid on that roof, then they would have to take care of my problems first. They agreed to do my repairs for free, in lieu of doing a bid on second house. 

Again, several days go by, and no one from roofing company shows up at our compound. I called them again yesterday, and they told me that they could not come out for the next few days, because they don't have a babysitter. Seriously!

I realize that I'm going to have to eat this myself, but I wanted to alert others, but I'm not sure if I can mention the name of company here? The original cost of the roof was approx 50,000 Php.


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Maxx62 said:


> Back in Feb of 2013, we hired a local roofing company here in Cebu to install our roof. However, last month I went up into our attic to do some work on the bathroom, and I noticed that I could see daylight through some empty empty rivet holes. I got someone from the roofing company to come out and take a look, and he stated that the installation crew did a bad job, and he would send someone out to do repairs free of charge.
> 
> I waited a few days, but no one showed up, and when I called them on the phone they said that I would have to cover the cost of doing repairs myself. I told them that we are currently building another house in our compound, and that if would like to place a bid on that roof, then they would have to take care of my problems first. They agreed to do my repairs for free, in lieu of doing a bid on second house.
> 
> ...


I'm curious.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

lefties43332 said:


> I'm curious.


The name of the company is, Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc.


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Maxx62 said:


> The name of the company is, Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc.


THx for sharing. Harry the horse will post it also if u message him


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Customer service and the Philippines are on different planets. Welcome to the Philippines. I'm actually surprised you even thought you would get them to come and fix it. Any rework of dodgy workmanship is usually done at the customers expense. It just cost us several tens of thousands of pesos to have a new well put down less than a year after the first one because they did a bad job. We're no longer in Kansas toto.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

lefties43332 said:


> THx for sharing. Harry the horse will post it also if u message him


Harry the horse? Not sure who that is?


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

Maxx62 said:


> Harry the horse? Not sure who that is?


Google him. Great blog/web page on life in PI, especially Angeles area


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Maxx62 said:


> Harry the horse? Not sure who that is?


Here's a link to Harry The Horse. He covers mostly Angeles City but great site..


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks, I'll contact Harry, but in the meanwhile I was looking through my old paperwork, and the total amount I paid to the roofing company was 92,000.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

Maxx62 said:


> Thanks, I'll contact Harry, but in the meanwhile I was looking through my old paperwork, and the total amount I paid to the roofing company was 92,000.


What part of that was materials?

You have any expat buddies in Cebu that can recommend anybody?


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

cvgtpc1 said:


> What part of that was materials?
> 
> You have any expat buddies in Cebu that can recommend anybody?


Not sure, the way they have my invoice broken down is kinda strange, but it looks like the materials ran about 82,000, and the labor may have been another 10,000. (Seem like I also had a separate invoice for insulation, from same company, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.) 

Looks like they didn't get all of the pop rivets into the holes in the supporting frame structure, and the rivets that were just passing through the sheet metal have come out over time. Talk about quality workmanship.

Most of the expats that I know down here live in pension houses, or townhouses. On the other hand, one of my wife's relatives is building a new house in the empty part of the compound, when they have a contractor come out to give an estimate, I will ask them how much it will cost to fix my missing rivets.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

I am a construction engineer and we have a saying

You do not get the job you expect, you get the job you inspect.

Always thourghly inspect every construction job before paying, works in Canada, Philippines and every country I have ever worked in.


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Manitoba said:


> I am a construction engineer and we have a saying
> 
> You do not get the job you expect, you get the job you inspect.
> 
> Always thourghly inspect every construction job before paying, works in Canada, Philippines and every country I have ever worked in.


Good point to keep in mind.


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## 197649 (Jan 1, 2013)

Manitoba said:


> I am a construction engineer and we have a saying
> 
> You do not get the job you expect, you get the job you inspect.
> 
> Always thourghly inspect every construction job before paying, works in Canada, Philippines and every country I have ever worked in.


Absolutely correct. It is hard when most companies here require 40-50% up front then increment payments as the job progresses. 
I have had my bathroom, kitchen and soon my living room remodeled. There has been issues along the way but the end result is what I wanted. As a matter of fact the folks who built my cabinets just picked up the island counter-top as it did not look smooth and even.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd be cautious about making any payment unless the material was delivered to site and under my control. (Perhaps 10 to 15%% down to cover materials being fabricated in a shop somewhere but that would be about my limit unless there was some security provisions in place to stop the guy from doing a runner on me.)

Just standard construction practice. A company is generally expected to have the financial capability to provide the short term financing of a project.


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## 197649 (Jan 1, 2013)

*roofing*

Just remember ALL PI contractors hire the guy who works for the least. I hired a supposed reputably contractor. Well since we moved in we have had leaks. Recently I hired someone to install outside gutters, while up there I asked them to take pictures of the roof. Needless to say you can see my next project.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Is there a waterproof barrier/membrane under those tiles, They look as though a 5 year old throw them up there.


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## 197649 (Jan 1, 2013)

Nope only space and air. I cannot climb up due to my physical condition. So right now I am planning on putting epoxy into the cracks as a short term fix until I can have it done right. Unfortunately it will be expensive. The roofer who put them up was a guy who worked in Canada as a roofer or so he says. If he did I am sure that crap was not tolerated there. 
But then again EVERYTHING you do or have done here MUST be supervised by you or this is what you get. It is a shame. To top it off contractors want money upfront and paid in incitements. I guess consumers are not protected and if they are I would assume it would be a MAJOR BATTLE to get rectified. Its like Jeepneys and Tricycles insurance NON Existent


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

All he has done is cut the tiles to fit the gully and then by the looks has tried to seal it with something, perhaps a little cement. To do it properely you need to cut the tlies back 2-3 inches and put a galvanized angle/channel in underneath, we use lead sheet here in the UK. There should also be an under felt (tarp) under all the tiles. Tiles on there own are not water proof.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

c_acton98 said:


> Just remember ALL PI contractors hire the guy who works for the least. I hired a supposed reputably contractor. Well since we moved in we have had leaks. Recently I hired someone to install outside gutters, while up there I asked them to take pictures of the roof. Needless to say you can see my next project.


Wow! Now I don't feel so about my roof missing a few rivets.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

I got some local handyman to go up on my roof to replace my missing rivets for only 500 Php. Not the way I usually like to take care of things, but in this case I couldn't get anyone else to do it. I guess I'll just keep an eye on it, and if it leaks I'll put some vulcaseal on it.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Two guys from Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc came out to work on my roof last week. They were here for about three hours on the first day, and then approximately six hours on the second day. They replaced quite a few tek screws in my roof, and the guy in charge said that all of my screw were now going through the purlin frame structure underneath.metal panels. I've had two minor rain storms since their visit, with no signs of any leaks. I now feel satisfied with Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc, and I would recommend their services. Also, although they said there was no charge for the repair, I gave them a reasonable tip for their work. Additionally, I guess they only use rivets on the area of the roof where it sticks out past the edge of the house (empty holes) the rest is head into place with tek screws.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

Maxx good thing you were able to detect and get some preventative maintenance finished before the Typhoon season it could have been very costly.

I'm now very pro-active with our roof, once you loose one panel the rest will go or an entire corner will come off. I also add sand bags to the roof if a severe storm approaches, late lesson's I learned from the neighborhood (late lessons).


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## 197649 (Jan 1, 2013)

Guys thats awesome. I had a contractor bid on my roof 1 to repair it 2 to completely rebuild it. 
20k for repair and 875k to fix it all. needless to say its not all getting done. I got to see how he calculated the roof he has 350 sqm


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

A few months back I noticed that one of the caps on the corner of my roof had come lose, and was not sitting level with the other caps. I started looking closer, and that's when I noticed that I could see daylight through some of the empty screw holes. After I looked at that, I became very nervous I could lose the entire thing in the next typhoon. Also, I'm thinking about setting some large eyebolts (type used on utility poles) in concrete so that I can maybe put some straps over the top of my roof. I still wouldn't want to be inside this thing if an eye of the big storm passed directly over head.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

*Straps and sand bags on the roof*



Maxx62 said:


> A few months back I noticed that one of the caps on the corner of my roof had come lose, and was not sitting level with the other caps. I started looking closer, and that's when I noticed that I could see daylight through some of the empty screw holes. After I looked at that, I became very nervous I could lose the entire thing in the next typhoon. Also, I'm thinking about setting some large eyebolts (type used on utility poles) in concrete so that I can maybe put some straps over the top of my roof. I still wouldn't want to be inside this thing if an eye of the big storm passed directly over head.


Maxx that's something I forgot, I witnessed people strapping down their roofs, great idea and anybody can loose their roof no matter how good it looks. I lost my roof because It needs some serious maintenance but I also noticed steel roofs and those fancy tiled ones come off, so it's a concern every single year and a costly one.

Eye passed over our roof Typhoon Glenda.... roof was thumping, it's a big roof so at 1am I grabbed my Grandson and was worried about loosing the roof, we opened our bedroom door and I didn't need to worry anymore it was already gone, we stood in-between the carport area and the interior of the house, my grandson was shaking. That's the second Typhoon I went through the center eye with the first was Typhoon Omar in Guam, boards traveling through doors and windows.


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## EuroBob (Feb 23, 2015)

I think your best chance is to keep dangling the possibility of additional paid work while you patiently wait for an appropriate response....or do it yourself.

I believe the Philippines does have laws which speak to contracted building work being guaranteed by the builder, but I am not sure it matters what is on the law books. 
Your best hope is that the builder cares enough about his reputation that he does not want the word getting out of his defective roof and lack of response.


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## EuroBob (Feb 23, 2015)

In regards to strapping a roof, it is best if the rebar protruding from the walls and vertical columns is used to wrap over the roof's framework, as the method of strapping in the Philippines. 
Additionally, it is best if the rebar is secured in a way which ties the roof to the foundation. 
This means that either the rebar is properly spliced with other pieces of rebar and in so doing provides a load path into the foundation or, as is possible with one story structures, the rebar extends from the roof all the way down to the foundation. 
Use hot dipped galvanized rebar.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

*Rebar tied to roof*



EuroBob said:


> In regards to strapping a roof, it is best if the rebar protruding from the walls and vertical columns is used to wrap over the roof's framework, as the method of strapping in the Philippines.
> Additionally, it is best if the rebar is secured in a way which ties the roof to the foundation.
> This means that either the rebar is properly spliced with other pieces of rebar and in so doing provides a load path into the foundation or, as is possible with one story structures, the rebar extends from the roof all the way down to the foundation.
> Use hot dipped galvanized rebar.


Rebar works to a degree but when there's a weakness in the roof, such as it breaks or a top metal sheet or ? what ever the roof is made of opens then that's it, the wind is so powerful it will pull that whole roof or it will come of in strips.

Typhoon and Super Typhoons bring in some winds that are nothing we've dealt with in the states or cooler climates.


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## EuroBob (Feb 23, 2015)

Category-5 hurricanes and typhoons are defined the same way, regardless of what part of the planet they occur. Hurricanes can contain and spawn tornadoes. 
That being said, Typhoon Haiyan, was a the top of class of Category-5's.

@Mcalleyboy, You are 100% correct that it is easy to lose a roof. 
I grew up on the Gulf Coast and we lost a roof during a Category-3 hurricane. 
In our case, we think somebody's patio cover became caught under the corner of our roof and acted as a sail until it pried our roof off of the brick walls. The walls started collapsing once the roof was gone and we had to run out into the hurricane in an attempt to reach a neighbor's house.
Just because a house loses a sheet of metal does not necessarily mean the entire roof will fly off, but one will probably lose a second sheet of metal(or more) as each subsequent weak link fails.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Having a 1 metre overhang as is popular to keep the sun/rain off the walls doesn't help as the wind can get under it and peel it back.


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## George6020 (Apr 18, 2014)

Maxx62 said:


> Two guys from Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc came out to work on my roof last week. They were here for about three hours on the first day, and then approximately six hours on the second day. They replaced quite a few tek screws in my roof, and the guy in charge said that all of my screw were now going through the purlin frame structure underneath.metal panels. I've had two minor rain storms since their visit, with no signs of any leaks. I now feel satisfied with Worldwide Building Solutions, Inc, and I would recommend their services. Also, although they said there was no charge for the repair, I gave them a reasonable tip for their work. Additionally, I guess they only use rivets on the area of the roof where it sticks out past the edge of the house (empty holes) the rest is head into place with tek screws.


Good follow up post on Worldwide. I'm a firm believer in criticizing poor workmanship to help workers understand and do a better job in the future. BUT, I'm also a firm believer in praising someone's efforts too.


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## George6020 (Apr 18, 2014)

c_acton98 said:


> Nope only space and air. I cannot climb up due to my physical condition. So right now I am planning on putting epoxy into the cracks as a short term fix until I can have it done right. Unfortunately it will be expensive. The roofer who put them up was a guy who worked in Canada as a roofer or so he says. If he did I am sure that crap was not tolerated there.
> But then again EVERYTHING you do or have done here MUST be supervised by you or this is what you get. It is a shame. To top it off contractors want money upfront and paid in incitements. I guess consumers are not protected and if they are I would assume it would be a MAJOR BATTLE to get rectified. Its like Jeepneys and Tricycles insurance NON Existent


 Think twice about using that epoxy on your roof. Just last month, my workers insisted on using epoxy to seal all the gutter pieces. Maybe 7-10 days later, I noticed water leaks from the gutter. I checked myself, to see that epoxy broken into many pieces cracked up like a saltine cracker. After removing all the epoxy pieces, I applied silicon sealant to all the joints. No leaking after several rains. I suggested silicon before............but all my workers insisted on epoxy. I know epoxy is strong and a good sealant, but maybe the sun was too hot, or the guy doing the mix and application messed up.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

cdrdh said:


> We hired a roofing contractor this year, gave a deposit in May 2005 and have yet to have our roof replacement done. We had three or four scheduled dates and no one showed up nor contacted to explain why. Every contact was initiated from me after repeatledy calling day after day every half hour. It has been one excuse after another whenever I could get a hold of the contractor. I started faxing so I would have things in writing when this crap started. I contacted the BBB and the attorney general's office to file a complaint. I also faxed the owner to know that we wanted the deposit back and would no longer require his services. Of course, no reply sooo . . . I am researching a lawyer to try to get our deposit money back but am not sure what type to hire or if there are other options available in trying to get the deposit back. I don't trust this company to do the roofing replacemetn job becuase of the lack of communcation and responsibility. We are in Baltimore County, MD. Any suggestions.


Are you talking about USA?
If so, I suppouse you can - as in Sweden - just send a written demand to him, and if he dont pay, you send it to The Bailiff (Correct word?) Then they handle everything and check for assets to take. Except if he deny, then need to go to court. No lawyer needed there neither, just show the proves.
(I did in Sweden concerning an other type of case. Simple.)
Many "Cowboy constructors" keep assets in e g wife's name and/or go bankruptsy so them they are in dept to often get nothing.

If in Phils, there are:
/Baranggay captain. No lawyers allowed.
/Small claims courts. Dont remember if max 100 000 or 200 000 pesos (back when I red it.) 

((/Normal court. Take for ever.)

No point sue someone to get back money, if he dont have any though
BUT sometimes can THREAT to sue help, because in Phils not paying a dept can become jail - to make him come and work off the dept.

- -
We had a case at baranggay captain recently. We have a good neighbour, who call us when he notice something  It was the son-in-law to the seller of the land! He claimed he didnt know it was sold. He had cut down and stolen 4 trees at our land  Told baranggay captain the day after and got case meeting and verdict the day after that, so *very smooth and fast*  
Verdict: We got the planks the thief had made of the stolen trees. And he had to promise to not take anything from us again


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## art1946 (Nov 30, 2017)

here in the states, we used rubberized cover under tile roof. I am a class "c" contractor. I believe the cover is a 40# rubberized roll. Like someone said the tile is not waterproofed. They will leak. 

art


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Manitoba said:


> Just standard construction practice. A company is generally expected to have the financial capability to provide the short term financing of a project.


Just one more standard practice thing that does not apply here in the phillipines LOL

Fred


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

fmartin_gila said:


> Just one more standard practice thing that does not apply here in the phillipines LOL


As well as banks dont lend to businesses until they are 3 years old and profitable so dont need loan anymore 

Actualy one of the customers, I "transformed" a lender to instead of to living costs, with the losses she got by borrowers couldnt pay, was financing only borrowers who earn by the financing, was a subcontractor, who couldnt pay the workers otherwice, by the headcontractor paid later. After that lender changed customers, all paid.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

In the end it all worked out pretty well. They sent out someone to do some repair work to our roof, and I never had any problems with it after that. One of the things when I learned while living in the Philippines is that the local businesses will let just about anyone answer their phones, and often times that person doesn't know anything about the company's policies or rules. They are just told to keep the unhappy customers away from the business owners, and that is about it. Anyway, eventually the owner of the business heard about the troubles we were having, and he sent a couple of guys out to fix things up.


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## art1946 (Nov 30, 2017)

roofing membrane is not to be cemented down. It is hot mopped with hot melted asphalt. If they used roofing cement, it could crack and leak in the future under the tile. I have been a class "C" for over 35 years. I could do roofing in certain areas of the county without having a roofer's license, since I was a general contractor in the USA.

I lived in the Philippines, and I have never seen such bad workmanship in my life. I am not sure if they know any better or just don't give a crap.

art


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

art1946 said:


> roofing membrane is not to be cemented down. It is hot mopped with hot melted asphalt. If they used roofing cement, it could crack and leak in the future under the tile. I have been a class "C" for over 35 years. I could do roofing in certain areas of the county without having a roofer's license, since I was a general contractor in the USA.
> 
> I lived in the Philippines, and I have never seen such bad workmanship in my life. I am not sure if they know any better or just don't give a crap.
> 
> art


Close art, don't know any better and don't give a crap.
Pitched roofs in the UK aren't boarded under the tiles, the membrane is just lose layed on to the trusses then the battens for the tile are placed and the tiles on top, only the edge tiles are nailed. All the inner tiles can be slid up to help climb the roof without cracking tiles. The tiles should catch the vast amount of the water and the membrane anything that gets through, the membrane is a relatively new addition.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Roofs are some tricky to make perfect by its its the condensation to solve too so it isnt easy to solve just by logic thinking,
while the Filipino plumber, who put the waterpipe in knee hight DIAGONAL over the room 🤣 instead of along walls so people needed to climb over it, didnt think so good. 



Gary D said:


> Close art, don't know any better and don't give a crap.
> Pitched roofs in the UK aren't boarded under the tiles, the membrane is just lose layed on to the trusses then the battens for the tile are placed and the tiles on top, only the edge tiles are nailed. All the inner tiles can be slid up to help climb the roof without cracking tiles. The tiles should catch the vast amount of the water and the membrane anything that gets through, the membrane is a relatively new addition.


 I dont know when Sweden started to have membranes (as asphalt roles) but it was one allready at the OLD roof I replaces 15 years ago.

Funny in UK they did (still?) put waterpipes at outside of the OUTSIDE wall without any insulation "to make it easier to deice when freeze" 🤣 instead of put it inside insulated to make it avoid get frozen!


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> Funny in UK they did (still?) put waterpipes at outside of the OUTSIDE wall without any insulation "to make it easier to deice when freeze" 🤣 instead of put it inside insulated to make it avoid get frozen!


Never happened to my knowledge. Definitely wouldn't pass the building inspector.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Gary D said:


> Never happened to my knowledge. Definitely wouldn't pass the building inspector.


 Sure it has happened. Perhaps you arent old enough (or have pressed that memory away  
I have very good memory in general except bad memory for names and time, but it was shown at documentary type TV program perhaps 40 years ago at I guess 20-40 year old back then brick houses. Such type as narrow connected houses with separate entrances where workers rented/owned in e g coalmine towns.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

If they were old miners cottages they wouldn't have had plumbing when built 100-200 years ago. They would have had a communal hand pump. When they were upgraded with plumbing many many years ago the pipes by necessity may have been run external but I would be surprised if they weren't insulted.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Gary D said:


> If they were old miners cottages they wouldn't have had plumbing when built 100-200 years ago. They would have had a communal hand pump. When they were upgraded with plumbing many many years ago the pipes by necessity may have been run external but I would be surprised if they weren't insulted.


 Not that old. By look I guess built around 1930-1950. 
I saw them at the documentary myself, pipes came out horizontal through the wall around zink height, then turned 90 degrees angle direct into the ground. No insulation. Metal pipes.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> Not that old. By look I guess built around 1930-1950.
> I saw them at the documentary myself, pipes came out horizontal through the wall around zink height, then turned 90 degrees angle direct into the ground. No insulation. Metal pipes.


That was probably the gas supply.


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## art1946 (Nov 30, 2017)

Hey Gary,

These roofs are built out of 1x4's to support the weight of the tiles. We put down 40# rubberized membrane that is hot mopped at every overlap. Roof cement is not used on overlaps. then the hard tiles are installed. Like it has been said, "the tiles will leak water." I have seen the roofing materials hot mopped all over the area. I guess it depends on the contractor.

art


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

art1946 said:


> Hey Gary,
> 
> These roofs are built out of 1x4's to support the weight of the tiles. We put down 40# rubberized membrane that is hot mopped at every overlap. Roof cement is not used on overlaps. then the hard tiles are installed. Like it has been said, "the tiles will leak water." I have seen the roofing materials hot mopped all over the area. I guess it depends on the contractor.
> 
> art


That's not how we do it in the UK.


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## art1946 (Nov 30, 2017)

Gary

Different countries have their ways of putting tile on the roof. the roof inspector would have knowledge in that area. I can only do tile roofs on room additions of the house i am working on here. I cannot install a tile roof on the main house. A licensed roofer would have to do it here, even though I am a Class "C" residential contractor.

Oh! I see in the picture to posted, you don't use barrel roof tile. this is one way to install barrel roof tile. there are different applications in different areas. 











art


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Gary D said:


> That was probably the gas supply.


 I suppouse not, because the comment at TV was as I wrote, put outside to unfrreeze easier. But the commentator can have been wrong


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> I suppouse not, because the comment at TV was as I wrote, put outside to unfrreeze easier. But the commentator can have been wrong


No one in their right mind would put a water pipe outside in the UK and the building regulations wouldn't allow it. You must have misunderstood.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Gary D said:


> No one in their right mind would put a water pipe outside in the UK and the building regulations wouldn't allow it. You must have misunderstood.


 Do you claim building regulations were same 1930 as now? 
There are allways been people taking shortcuts to reduce costs. 
E g Filipinos adding to litle cement when making hollow blocks and developers building so the houses of course get flooded  Poor builders being much more clever when they build at poles than the high educated developers building the floors so low so get flooded very easy... As e g in rather new built in Cavite.


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