# British Cars in Spain



## jojo

I was with a friend this morning, helping him move. We were in his british registered RHD car/4x4/heap lol!!, The Guardia were doing road checks and we were stopped and a lot of questions were asked as to why we were in a non matriculated vehicle, how long had the owner been here, how long was he staying...... Heck, I was just the passenger and they wanted to see my drivers licence, they even wanted to know my parents names !!???!!!

Anyway, I was chatting to some friends later and apparently theres a big push at the mo to catch and prosecute anyone who is driving a British car who shouldnt be. So be warned!! 


Jo xxxx


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## lynn

jojo said:


> I was with a friend this morning, helping him move. We were in his british registered RHD car/4x4/heap lol!!, The Guardia were doing road checks and we were stopped and a lot of questions were asked as to why we were in a non matriculated vehicle, how long had the owner been here, how long was he staying...... Heck, I was just the passenger and they wanted to see my drivers licence, they even wanted to know my parents names !!???!!!
> 
> Anyway, I was chatting to some friends later and apparently theres a big push at the mo to catch and prosecute anyone who is driving a British car who shouldnt be. So be warned!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


Yes, I saw a british plated 4x4 stopped by the police at the roundabout leading off the A7 at Mijas this afternoon on my way back from school. I have also heard anecdotally that the police stop more cars at the end of the week to fill quotas. Don't know how true that is??? Is it my imagination, or do there seem to be loads more british plated cars on the road at the moment?


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## jojo

lynn said:


> Yes, I saw a british plated 4x4 stopped by the police at the roundabout leading off the A7 at Mijas this afternoon on my way back from school. I have also heard anecdotally that the police stop more cars at the end of the week to fill quotas. Don't know how true that is??? Is it my imagination, or do there seem to be loads more british plated cars on the road at the moment?


There seem to be a alot. Once upon a time the guardia actually found the paperwork too much effort if they stopped a Brit car, but this time round they dont seem to be bothered and are coming down hard !!??

Jo xxx


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## sparkplug

OI less of the Heap! Its a safe reliable car......
Glad you were there to dazzle him with your charm as my poor spanish (well actual total lack of ability to speak it) would have coaused me problems....


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## sparkplug

Oh and its getting matriculated now - too much hassle staying on UK plates and having that everytime theres a purge.


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## jojo

sparkplug said:


> Oh and its getting matriculated now - too much hassle staying on UK plates and having that everytime theres a purge.


Good!!! You're ok at the mo you havent been here long, but it could have been worse if they thought you were a permenant resident !! 


Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

I haven't matriculated my BMW and don't intend to, it's in my daughter-in-law's name and has a year's MOT, fully insured. She is UK-based.
Whenever I talk to people about any possible problems they tell me not to bother, citing people who have vdriven RHD and LHD British plated cars for decades. I don't think I've seen a single UK plated car with a valid tax disc round here and I've seen loads.
I would have thought that a LHD UK plated car would be a real giveaway that the owner is Spain -based whereas RHD could more probably signal someone on holiday?
Are the Guardia stopping German, French, Dutch etc. plated cars too, I wonder?


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I haven't matriculated my BMW and don't intend to, it's in my daughter-in-law's name and has a year's MOT, fully insured. She is UK-based.
> Whenever I talk to people about any possible problems they tell me not to bother, citing people who have vdriven RHD and LHD British plated cars for decades. I don't think I've seen a single UK plated car with a valid tax disc round here and I've seen loads.
> I would have thought that a LHD UK plated car would be a real giveaway that the owner is Spain -based whereas RHD could more probably signal someone on holiday?
> Are the Guardia stopping German, French, Dutch etc. plated cars too, I wonder?


Just you be careful. If its not legal in anyway, they'll "have" you!!!!!! The mood of apathy seems to have changed !!!!!!!! ......... and be careful on these dreadful spanish roads! Those speedbumps could be lethal on a prestige car!!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Just you be careful. If its not legal in anyway, they'll "have" you!!!!!! The mood of apathy seems to have changed !!!!!!!! ......... and be careful on these dreadful spanish roads! Those speedbumps could be lethal on a prestige car!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx



Well, it may have been a prestige car once but like me it's seen better days..
Your warning has made me think tho'..Wonder if I could do a swap with someone who has a Spanish plated car and would like to drive back to the UK.


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## gus-lopez

The problem comes, with an untaxed car, if you are in an accident and God forbid someone is injured or killed. The policeman on the roadside might not know what is necessary on a car from another country but the lawyers are right on the ball. If it's got no tax or mot then it has no insurance,if it has tax insurnce and mot and you have an UK licence but no Spanish medical certificate to back it up your still illegal. If you are in an accident where someone is injured or killed & you're deemed to have no ins. etc, then the whole bill for compensation will be your responsibility. They'll embargo the house & bank accounts if you dont pay & it can run into 100's of 1000's of euros. Round here & up to Alicante if you are stopped and don't have tax/mot it's straight on a low loader and to the pound until you can produce paperwork to show you are re-registering. This is also the reason that they introduced a 12% import tax, in 2007, for people who were stopped and had been living here more than 6mths without re-registering their cars.In addition if you are stopped for driving a foreign reg. car with incorrct documentation you will also be prosecuted for driving a foreign reg. vehicle whilst being a resident of Spain. No Spanish citizen or foreigner with 'residencia' is allowed to drive a foreign reg. vehicle, except professional drivers who work for foreign companys. This is the law in the UK as well now. Remember also that the onus is on you to prove that the vehicle has not been here more than 6 mths. & not on the police to prove that it has.
another point worth noting is that 1 or 2 Spanish ins. cos. who insure UK plated vehicles, like Mapfre & Liberty Seguros notify the DVLA on Tues. & Fridays of any UK reg. vehicle that they have insured . This is so that if you travel to the UK & are stopped by the police ,your details will be in the system. Not something you want if you've declared it SORN in the UK is it ? 
Yes , they do stop french,dutch, german, ( round here anyway).The French don't have a problem as the Spanish ITV is legal for a French reg. vehicle.( That's what it says on the office window at my ITV station & also my neighbours french reg. van hasn't seen France for 30 yrs! & is ITV'd every 6 mths.) but not for UK or germany. Don't know about the Dutch.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> in . If it's got no tax or mot then it has no insurance,
> 
> That is true only insofar as the MOT -no MOT then no insurance. It is not the case if you have no Road Tax.
> This concerned me when I was living in Prague and I obtained a letter from my insurance company, Stuart Collins, stating that if my UK Road Tax lapsed I would still be insured under their European 365 days a year policy..
> As for Liberty Seguros et al informing the DVLA - UK police cars are able to identify your vehicle's full details - insurance, MOT, logbook etc. via the national database - so I would have thought this rather superfluous.
> If your vehicle is SORNed and you wish to drive it to the UK all you need to do is book an MOT test ahead of your journey and have proof that you have done so.
> My MOT is valid until July this year so ifr I wish I can renew my Road Tax right up to the week of the expiry date.
> I'm frankly amazed at the enormous number of UK plated tax-free LHD and RHD cars around here. They come in all sorts from little SEATs to top-of-the-range Mercs, BMWs and 4x4s.
> I asked a friend about the risks of driving such a vehicle and she told me that 'Old Bert' has been dfriving his UK plated RHD car for over twenty years -no problems. Another friend drives a new UK plated LHD Jeep -no tax and seemingly no problems. So far, at least.
> My BMW has been here since late July and I don't think I'll bother putting in on Spanish plates but I'll renew the tax before the MOT expires and take the vehicle for an itv to ensure its roadworthy.
> If I get stopped by the Guardia, they can take the car.


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## gus-lopez

This concerned me when I was living in Prague and I obtained a letter from my insurance company, Stuart Collins, stating that if my UK Road Tax lapsed I would still be insured under their European 365 days a year policy..
Most co's won't. No tax, no mot = no ins. The law is it has to be fully legal in the country of registration.

As for Liberty Seguros et al informing the DVLA - UK police cars are able to identify your vehicle's full details - insurance, MOT, logbook etc. via the national database - so I would have thought this rather superfluous.

Police in the UK only have access to UK ins. co. details. If you are driving a Uk reg. car that is insured in Spain ,it will be flagged up by APNR as having no ins. to the police in the UK. The onus is then on you, at the side of the road, to hope that they can read your ins. document.

If your vehicle is SORNed and you wish to drive it to the UK all you need to do is book an MOT test ahead of your journey and have proof that you have done so.


Do not believe any one who tells you this . Years ago you could get away with it but the only legal reasons you can be on the road without an Mot ,in the UK,is if you are returning to the test centre for re-testing after a failure, or after a SORN to a booked appointment. SORN means ,off road , in the UK. You cannot SORN outside of the UK. See here; When to make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) : Directgov - Motoring

Yes, many people have been doing it for years but it's only when the accident happens and it ends up in court that the realisation that the house could be lost, dawns. To me the risk is not worth it.

One thing that has been doing the rounds recently, is the possibility that they are going to bring in a law banning the re- registering of RHD cars on safety grounds the same as they have for not re-registeringRHD lorries & vans.I have actually seen re-reg. RHD vans on sale ( around Alicante ) , God knows what would happn if you were in an accident in one of them. They'd probably just turn round and say it shouldn't have been re-reg. and cancel it leaving you to carry the blame.


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> I haven't matriculated my BMW and don't intend to, it's in my daughter-in-law's name and has a year's MOT, fully insured. She is UK-based.
> Whenever I talk to people about any possible problems they tell me not to bother, citing people who have vdriven RHD and LHD British plated cars for decades. I don't think I've seen a single UK plated car with a valid tax disc round here and I've seen loads.
> I would have thought that a LHD UK plated car would be a real giveaway that the owner is Spain -based whereas RHD could more probably signal someone on holiday?
> Are the Guardia stopping German, French, Dutch etc. plated cars too, I wonder?


And this makes things right????


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## jojo

Back to our incident. They werent just stopping British cars altho I've no doubt thats why we were pulled in. They were stopping allsorts. There was a Spanish (??) van infront driven by a young lady who they appeared to give a ticket to (she didnt look pleased). And a guy in a blue car behind us - who wasnt in a RHD car, but the reg didnt look spanish???????? 

They do it alot around here, in fact I often get stopped on a particular roundabout on my school run. But the little guardia man usually just wants a cigarette and doesnt even ask me for my paperwork anymore! - Now that wouldnt happen in England LOL!!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> And this makes things right????


Depends what you mean by 'right', doesn't it? Do you mean 'morally' or 'legally' right?
I paid Road Tax for over two years on a car that was never driven on a UK road until it was driven back to the UK to be sold. It was new and didn't require an MOT. So I know what's legally required and I've paid up.
My current UK plated RHD car was taxed, MOTed and driven here last summer. It is and will always be properly maintained. It is fully insured for Europe-wide driving and can be driven on UK roads at any time.. I'm thinking of changing it anyway, either by part exchange or sale, here or in the UK.
Since it's not registered in my name and the registered owner is UK resident I think the status is complicated.
Many things in life are not 'right' but compared to the global scale of misdeeds I would say mine is comparatively trivial, wouldn't you?
As I said, if the Guardia decide I'm not complying with the law, then they can have the wretched car. I have a fully legal Spanish -registered car and if I wanted a second vehicle as back up, hell, I 'd go and buy one.
To me, the most important consideration before ANY vehicle is taken on the road, whatever its plates or other status, is that it is roadworthy.
I may or may not have driven a vehicle that does not abide by ownership/status requirements -and I'm not sure that my BMW isn't currently legal in Spain -but I have NEVER driven a vehicle that was not fit to be on the road and that to me is doing 'right'.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Depends what you mean by 'right', doesn't it? Do you mean 'morally' or 'legally' right?
> I paid Road Tax for over two years on a car that was never driven on a UK road until it was driven back to the UK to be sold. It was new and didn't require an MOT. So I know what's legally required and I've paid up.
> My current UK plated RHD car was taxed, MOTed and driven here last summer. It is and will always be properly maintained. It is fully insured for Europe-wide driving and can be driven on UK roads at any time.. I'm thinking of changing it anyway, either by part exchange or sale, here or in the UK.
> Since it's not registered in my name and the registered owner is UK resident I think the status is complicated.
> Many things in life are not 'right' but compared to the global scale of misdeeds I would say mine is comparatively trivial, wouldn't you?
> As I said, if the Guardia decide I'm not complying with the law, then they can have the wretched car. I have a fully legal Spanish -registered car and if I wanted a second vehicle as back up, hell, I 'd go and buy one.
> To me, the most important consideration before ANY vehicle is taken on the road, whatever its plates or other status, is that it is roadworthy.
> I may or may not have driven a vehicle that does not abide by ownership/status requirements -and I'm not sure that my BMW isn't currently legal in Spain -but I have NEVER driven a vehicle that was not fit to be on the road and that to me is doing 'right'.


I agree with the principal of what you're saying, but what would worry me is that if you have an accident - be it your fault or not and you needed to claim on the insurance for injury or damage. Would the guardia back you up and say, yes this vehicle is totally legal?? - if not, the insurance company wont pay up and you will then be prosecuted???

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Back to our incident. They werent just stopping British cars altho I've no doubt thats why we were pulled in. They were stopping allsorts. There was a Spanish (??) van infront driven by a young lady who they appeared to give a ticket to (she didnt look pleased). And a guy in a blue car behind us - who wasnt in a RHD car, but the reg didnt look spanish????????
> 
> They do it alot around here, in fact I often get stopped on a particular roundabout on my school run. But the little guardia man usually just wants a cigarette and doesnt even ask me for my paperwork anymore! - Now that wouldnt happen in England LOL!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



I wonder if they're doing it at this time because fewer people in RHD cars are more likely to be here on holiday than residents? The A7 near Mijas/Fuengirola etc. is an area where you are likely to catch a whole bunch of British residents whereas round here there aren't so many, although there a quite a few driving UK cars.. 
Austrian rules are interesting: apparently you can put your Austrian plates on any EU vehicle. When our landlord flies in from Vienna he carries his Austrian plates with him and sticks them on the car he keeps here.
I've seen the Guardia stopping cars locally but I've been ignored on the one occasion I was in my UK plated car. They seem to concentrate on commercials and older cars, often driven by Moroccans or other 'non -Brit foreigners.
If they do get round to doing a sweep of 'illegal' UK plated cars here they will have a lot of paperwork to do.
I was once stopped in another UK plated car I had and no questions were asked about the status of the car which was at the time fully legal as I had been here barely two months.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I agree with the principal of what you're saying, but what would worry me is that if you have an accident - be it your fault or not and you needed to claim on the insurance for injury or damage. Would the guardia back you up and say, yes this vehicle is totally legal?? - if not, the insurance company wont pay up and you will then be prosecuted???
> 
> Jo xxx


I had this out with the Spanish nsurance company. They assured me that I was covered third party which is my main concern. As far as my car goes, I'm honestly not bothered. If it's damaged it can be scrapped. We've had more than our money's worth from it. This may be tempting fate but I'm a careful driver and have had no claims against me for over thirty years, since I began driving. I've also passed a test to drive minibuses with passengers.
The UK broker with whom I'd previously had 365 day all -European insurance on both UK and Spanish plated vehicles gave me that reassurance too.
I'm seriously considering swapping it, though. Any ideas as to how best to go about that?


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Do not believe any one who tells you this . Years ago you could get away with it but the only legal reasons you can be on the road without an Mot ,in the UK,is if you are returning to the test centre for re-testing after a failure, or after a SORN to a booked appointment. SORN means ,off road , in the UK. You cannot SORN outside of the UK.
> 
> My car is registered to a UK owner and UK address so there's no problem there.
> So if the need arose, it would be deSORNEd and booked for an MOT. The registered owner is fully insured to drive the vehicle in the UK and Europe-wide and frequently does when visiting us.
> One of our UK businesses involved an MOT testing centre so unless the rules have changed in the last five years I think I still know procedures.
> But then I also know that rules do change frequently.


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> and I'm not sure that my BMW isn't currently legal in Spain -but I have NEVER driven a vehicle that was not fit to be on the road and that to me is doing 'right'.


I guess I'm strange 
I always feel that if I move to a country then I should abide by their laws as best I can.

I know of course that there are many discussions over the internet about this issue, but the bottom line is not that people feel morally warm and cuddly about this, but that in the event of an accident the other party is covered.

There are so many restrictions and different takes on this subject that its not worth going into here so I'll leave the thread shortly at this point. Cars being permanently exported, for instance. You clearly have an interesting policy if it's UK insured, as few companies in the UK will insure a car that has been permanently exported. However as you say, it's complicated because the car is in your daughters name, and that normally means it can only be driven for 6 months of the year in Spain on UK plates, even with the British legalities. I guess you'd say to that, how can anyone prove that, but actually the onus will be on YOU to prove it, from what I have heard in past occasions

Anyway, I'll now slope off elsewhere


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## mrypg9

There are UK reputable brokers who will insure cars on Spanish or UK plates for year-round Europe wide insurance if you are resident outside the UK. I've insured two cars via Stuart Collins, one UK plated, one Spanish plated, but the costs are very high, as you'd expect. I paid just under £900 and £700 for each of the vehicles with full no-claims bonus.-that's why I sold one of them, too darn expensive. A few other UK companies do this too but are equally pricey.
I've just come back vfrom walkimng OLA and in the last five minutes I observed no fewer than five UK plated vehicles, both LHD and RHD and none of them with tax. 
I'm not saying it's right -at least my vehicle is UK legal if not here and anyone I might hurt is covered -but an awful lot of people are doing it.
I wonder why?

P.S. Have just realised that the six month period is yet to expire.....so there's currently no real need to worry but I think I will seek a swap or sale to some returning Brit who'd like a UK road legal and still nice-looking well-maintained car.


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## jojo

Well apparently its changing. Before, alot of the time the guardia couldnt be bothered with the amount of paperwork that was involved with dealing with illegal Brit/foreign cars. But thats changed and they're clamping down according to rumours around here. It seems everyone knows someone who's recently been caught and they're complaining that its not fair cos they've not had a problem before and they've been here "x" number of years!!???????

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Well apparently its changing. Before, alot of the time the guardia couldnt be bothered with the amount of paperwork that was involved with dealing with illegal Brit/foreign cars. But thats changed and they're clamping down according to rumours around here. It seems everyone knows someone who's recently been caught and they're complaining that its not fair cos they've not had a problem before and they've been here "x" number of years!!???????
> 
> Jo xxx


Did you see my PS on the above post? I've just checked out the dates.
An awful lot of people are going to be upset if the Guardia get serious here.
I wonder why on earth a guy we know bought a top-of-the-range Jeep, put it on UK plates as it's LHD and of course has no UK Road Tax????
When we bought our car from a main dealer in Nuremberg it was delivered to us in Prague on German plates and we changed them for UK plates and paid Road Tax.
We didn't realise we would be shortly moving to Spain.
The one thing I need to be sure of is that I am covered for any third-party claim and I am.


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## gus-lopez

The reason they're cracking down is the 'crisis'. The gov. needs the money,I wonder if this is also the reason that they have discontinued taking points from the licences for speeding on the autovias up to 151 km/hr. It's just a 100 e fine now less 30% for paying in the vol. period. They can generate more income this way.Also round here they are out every day with mobile speed cameras which you never used to see.


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## Tallulah

gus-lopez said:


> The reason they're cracking down is the 'crisis'. The gov. needs the money,I wonder if this is also the reason that they have discontinued taking points from the licences for speeding on the autovias up to 151 km/hr. It's just a 100 e fine now less 30% for paying in the vol. period. They can generate more income this way.Also round here they are out every day with mobile speed cameras which you never used to see.


Ah yes, is that why library fines have also increased do you think?!?!

Seriously though, I would imagine apart from the dubious income generation, the massive "Ponle Freno" campaign might also have something to do with it. Road deaths are coming down as a result.


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## mrypg9

Re: car lights 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://spainlawyer.com/guialegal/gui...05010100000000

The relevant part being-
"You may bring into Spain your EU registered car without further formality but you may not use it in Spain for more than 6 months in a calendar year. If you spend more than 6 months in any year in Spain, you will be considered resident and consequently you must obtain full national plates and pay the special vehicle registration tax (impuesto municipal sobre circulación de vehículos). "

So if the car is in my DIL's name, with MOT, tax, insurance, it's OK? She is non-resident and of course can prove it.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Re: car lights
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> http://spainlawyer.com/guialegal/gui...05010100000000
> 
> The relevant part being-
> "You may bring into Spain your EU registered car without further formality but you may not use it in Spain for more than 6 months in a calendar year. If you spend more than 6 months in any year in Spain, you will be considered resident and consequently you must obtain full national plates and pay the special vehicle registration tax (impuesto municipal sobre circulación de vehículos). "
> 
> So if the car is in my DIL's name, with MOT, tax, insurance, it's OK? She is non-resident and of course can prove it.


Yes but the probem is you are driving it and a Spanish national OR foreigner with Spanish residency cannot drive a foreign reg. vehicle, Only one with Spanish plates.

Sorry, forgot to put the link in. http://spain.angloinfo.com/countries/spain/motoregister.asp


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Yes but the probem is you are driving it and a Spanish national OR foreigner with Spanish residency cannot drive a foreign reg. vehicle, Only one with Spanish plates.


That complicates matters.....
So the car is legal...but I'm not..


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> That complicates matters.....
> So the car is legal...but I'm not..


So the question is ..... if tomorrow you go out in a car that you can't legally drive in Spain and (god forbid) have a serious accident and kill or injure someone, and the Police arrest you for that illegal driving ........ how will the Uk insurance company (who presumably know the car has been permanently exported from the UK) treat the claim ..... bearing in mind its not in the UK you are driving, and the car is not being driven legally at the point of accident?

Yes, a lot of brits are going to be upset, as you mentioned ... but they should have done what most of us have done and complied with Spanish law. They are defrauding the Spanish authorities out of money, and frankly I have no sympathy with them.

Sorry, I wasnt going to comment any further, but as you probably gathered this is one of my pet hates


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> So the question is ..... if tomorrow you go out in a car that you can't legally drive in Spain and (god forbid) have a serious accident and kill or injure someone, and the Police arrest you for that illegal driving ........ how will the Uk insurance company (who presumably know the car has been permanently exported from the UK) treat the claim ..... bearing in mind its not in the UK you are driving, and the car is not being driven legally at the point of accident?


This car is insured for me to drive in Spain by a Spanish Insurance Company via Knights Brokers. My other two vehicles were insured by a UK Company which specialises in insuring vehicles on all European plates owned by UK nationals who permanently reside outside the UK. The fact that I was paying almost £1700 per annum for this privilegeencouraged me to swap to local insurance. My DIL has of course her own Europe-wide insurance although my insurance covers any driver over thirty and under seventy with a valid licence.I obtained verbal and written insurances that I would have third party cover in the event of an accident. As I said, that has been my chief concern. I'm not bothered about my car.
Knights have been in business for decades insuring UK plated cars in Spain and if they were tardy in paying out I'm sure they wouldn't be in business. There's also the case that having taken money for a vehicle and issued a contract there could be serious consequences for them as a business.
This raises a whole issue then: that of complicity in law-breaking since Knights and other companies know full well where and by whom these vehicles are being driven.
Anyway, I'm off to the Gestor today to see what can be sorted. If I can't sell or p/ex the wretched vehicle I might as well see if it's worth replating it. 
And the silly thing is that I've used it about half-a-dozen times since it arrived here last summer. In fact it is used so rarely that the battery needs frequent recharging.
We've just become addicted to having a convertible for summer use.


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## Tallulah

mrypg9 said:


> Re: car lights
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> http://spainlawyer.com/guialegal/gui...05010100000000
> 
> The relevant part being-
> "You may bring into Spain your EU registered car without further formality but you may not use it in Spain for more than 6 months in a calendar year. If you spend more than 6 months in any year in Spain, you will be considered resident and consequently you must obtain full national plates and pay the special vehicle registration tax (impuesto municipal sobre circulación de vehículos). "
> 
> So if the car is in my DIL's name, with MOT, tax, insurance, it's OK? She is non-resident and of course can prove it.


Morning Mary - perhaps you could clarify this as I'm a bit confused on the above.
A question on this though - isn't that more relevant for a car that is driven into and out of Spain for use during extended visits? Rather than the vehicle just based here permanently for use when its owners are on holiday? I'm not up to speed on this insurance thing - but it appears it could be used as a "loophole" really. I think there are those who are just trying to get away with it for as long as possible. Not saying you're one of those of course, hon!!

Clearly it's all based on the "how will they all find out" rather than the legality of it. The obvious pain of MOTs when a UK registered car is here all year is clear. If that pain is gone through and that car is gone through every year in the UK and taxed, then clearly it's exactly the same as for a person who is actually here, but not officially left the UK.

I think these sort of scenarios will only ever get tested when, to put it bluntly, the caca hits the fan. Lets face it, in the event of a major pay out, insurance companies have investigators to trawl through the details - it's at this point that the above scenario's legal standing will become a welcome get-out-of-jail card for them. 

All I can say officially is that for one of my OH's cars has been pulled up on the lights having been here over four years - having previously been with reflector stickers and passed several ITVs - last year he was told that it was not acceptable any more so we imported headlamps and had them fitted (for right hand traffic was the option at the UK dealership). This alone tells me that the above scenario, what one could refer to as the whole car, is to say the least dubious if not clearly not legal. BUT as I am sure the crux of the matter is how will they know? I say again, lets hope no-one with a UK plated car here long term has the unfortunate scenario of a big enough accident to find out.

xx


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## mrypg9

Tallulah said:


> Morning Mary - perhaps you could clarify this as I'm a bit confused on the above.
> A question on this though - isn't that more relevant for a car that is driven into and out of Spain for use during extended visits? Rather than the vehicle just based here permanently for use when its owners are on holiday? I'm not up to speed on this insurance thing - but it appears it could be used as a "loophole" really. I think there are those who are just trying to get away with it for as long as possible. Not saying you're one of those of course, hon!!
> 
> Clearly it's all based on the "how will they all find out" rather than the legality of it. The obvious pain of MOTs when a UK registered car is here all year is clear. If that pain is gone through and that car is gone through every year in the UK and taxed, then clearly it's exactly the same as for a person who is actually here, but not officially left the UK.
> 
> I think these sort of scenarios will only ever get tested when, to put it bluntly, the caca hits the fan. Lets face it, in the event of a major pay out, insurance companies have investigators to trawl through the details - it's at this point that the above scenario's legal standing will become a welcome get-out-of-jail card for them.
> 
> All I can say officially is that for one of my OH's cars has been pulled up on the lights having been here over four years - having previously been with reflector stickers and passed several ITVs - last year he was told that it was not acceptable any more so we imported headlamps and had them fitted (for right hand traffic was the option at the UK dealership). This alone tells me that the above scenario, what one could refer to as the whole car, is to say the least dubious if not clearly not legal. BUT as I am sure the crux of the matter is how will they know? I say again, lets hope no-one with a UK plated car here long term has the unfortunate scenario of a big enough accident to find out.
> 
> xx


Hi Tally!
My main concern is that I'm third party covered and I'm sure of that.
Yes, the scenario is very complicated. How do you define the six month period? Does it cover multiple cumulative entries? What if the UK plated car is kept off-road (as the car in question is) when the registered owner is not in Spain?
The car may be legal but it seems that if I drive it I'm not....although the insurance company has issued a policy in (presumably) the full knowledge that it is condoning and enabling an 'illegal' act (since I wouldn't be on the road without this insurance) .
It's all too much for my simple brain so I'm going to our Gestor today to see what can be done.
Perhaps we should have kept the vehicle in the UK or sold it there....


----------



## jojo

What bothers me is that I've heard time and again (not form you mary lol) that insuance companies are happy to cover these cars and the sales people on the phone will happily telly you that you're covered!! However, when theres an accident and the guardia deem your car illegal - the insurance company run a mile and deny all knowledge of their promises

Jo xxxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> What bothers me is that I've heard time and again (not form you mary lol) that insuance companies are happy to cover these cars and the sales people on the phone will happily telly you that you're covered!! However, when theres an accident and the guardia deem your car illegal - the insurance company run a mile and deny all knowledge of their promises
> 
> Jo xxxx



But if you think about it, that's unlikely for various reasons: firstly, you have paid money, they have issued a policy covering you and your named vehicle and it would be impossible to deny that you were not acting in good faith and that the company knew what it was guaranteeing.
Then there's the fact that thousands of these policies have been issued over decades to Brits driving UK plated cars. If there had been an accident where the insurer had refused to pay out on a policy it had issued being fully aware of the vehicle's status then we would have heard about it! The Company's reputation would have been severely damaged and I'm sure that the aggrieved uncompensated driver would have been entitled under Spanish and European law to have taken action against the insurer under Consumer Protection Law.
You get to hear all sorts of things in all countries from people but most of these if not all are anecdotal, I believe. They happen to 'someone else' get repeated and assume the mantel of fact. It was 'common knowledge' in Prague that all policemen were bribeable so you should always have a 500 CZK note visible next to your passport and driving licence. The same went for getting a STK, the Czech itv equivalent.
The Company I used, Knights, have been in business on the CDS for thirty years or more so I would assume they are respectable and reputable. They issued my policy on a UK plated car knowing I and the car am resident here. So if as it seems I would be driving illegally, then they are enabling me to commit this offence as I would never ever drive without at least third-party insurance.
This complicated situation needs to be resolved one way or another.
In my case, it's off to the Gestor (when I can get his phone unengaged to make the appointment!)


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> But if you think about it, that's unlikely for various reasons: firstly, you have paid money, they have issued a policy covering you and your named vehicle and it would be impossible to deny that you were not acting in good faith and that the company knew what it was guaranteeing.
> Then there's the fact that thousands of these policies have been issued over decades to Brits driving UK plated cars. If there had been an accident where the insurer had refused to pay out on a policy it had issued being fully aware of the vehicle's status then we would have heard about it! The Company's reputation would have been severely damaged and I'm sure that the aggrieved uncompensated driver would have been entitled under Spanish and European law to have taken action against the insurer under Consumer Protection Law.
> You get to hear all sorts of things in all countries from people but most of these if not all are anecdotal, I believe. They happen to 'someone else' get repeated and assume the mantel of fact. It was 'common knowledge' in Prague that all policemen were bribeable so you should always have a 500 CZK note visible next to your passport and driving licence. The same went for getting a STK, the Czech itv equivalent.
> The Company I used, Knights, have been in business on the CDS for thirty years or more so I would assume they are respectable and reputable. They issued my policy on a UK plated car knowing I and the car am resident here. So if as it seems I would be driving illegally, then they are enabling me to commit this offence as I would never ever drive without at least third-party insurance.
> This complicated situation needs to be resolved one way or another.
> In my case, it's off to the Gestor (when I can get his phone unengaged to make the appointment!)



It happens and they simply say that the policy was issued in good faith and that the fact that the vehicle has now been officially recognised as illegal means the policy is no longer valied! 

It happened to my daughter when someone crashed into her car in the UK and during the course of me trying to get her some insurance money from the other driver on her behalf - lots of phone calls to insurance companies, uninsured drivers fund thing and ombudsmen etc... I was told during a conversation, that this happens alot abroad, insurance companies are happy to take the money and take the policy details on good faith if there's a signature and the necessary paperwork, but once and if the car is deemed illegal they dont wanna pay up - end (she was in England at the time). That's always stuck in my mind

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> It happens and they simply say that the policy was issued in good faith and that the fact that the vehicle has now been officially recognised as illegal means the policy is no longer valied!
> 
> It happened to my daughter when someone crashed into her car in the UK and during the course of me trying to get her some insurance money from the other driver on her behalf - lots of phone calls to insurance companies, uninsured drivers fund thing and ombudsmen etc... I was told during a conversation, that this happens alot abroad, insurance companies are happy to take the money and take the policy details on good faith if there's a signature and the necessary paperwork, but once and if the car is deemed illegal they dont wanna pay up - end (she was in England at the time). That's always stuck in my mind
> 
> Jo xxx


This situation needs investigating properly. I'd like to hear from someone who has actually had a claim denied -not for damage to their car but to a third party. That's the crucial difference.
I still think that if even one of these policies had been refused by the company they wouldn't be in business. It would be the talk of all the British etc. media.
Remember though, I'm talking about valid Third Party insurance. I know only too well how difficult it can be to get compensation for damage that you caused to your own car that or someone else has caused in situations where the driver has given false information or simply isn't insured.. We had a lot of that in our part of the UK before I moved with Poles, Latvians etc. driving uninsured or with policies based on false documentation. A friend had her new BMW sideswiped by a Lithuanian who had no insurance and offered her £100 to cover the damage!!!
In my case here the information I've given is accurate and supplied in good faith.


----------



## gus-lopez

"But if you think about it, that's unlikely for various reasons: firstly, you have paid money, they have issued a policy covering you and your named vehicle and it would be impossible to deny that you were not acting in good faith and that the company knew what it was guaranteeing." 

The ins. is the same here as the UK, they insure your vehicle on the basis that you keep it legal and roadworthy, which means it has to be legal in the country in which it is registered. If it is not they won't pay out.


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> "But if you think about it, that's unlikely for various reasons: firstly, you have paid money, they have issued a policy covering you and your named vehicle and it would be impossible to deny that you were not acting in good faith and that the company knew what it was guaranteeing."
> 
> The ins. is the same here as the UK, they insure your vehicle on the basis that you keep it legal and roadworthy, which means it has to be legal in the country in which it is registered. If it is not they won't pay out.



Yes, it's currently UK legal. That's put my mind at rest to some extent. As I said before, the car is legal, the insurance is valid.....but I still shouldn't be driving it!!!!
BUT......I was not asked to produce any documents proving the car was UK legal by the Insurance Broker.
I'm going to ring the broker to get this clarified. I have an appointment with the Gestor at 5pm. I've tentatively made enquiries about selling or swapping the wretched vehicle which is now under cover in our garden!
I shall be driving my Spanish-plated fully legal LR to the Gestor's office!


----------



## chris(madrid)

Just so we're all aware. This is happening all over Spain. 

The Spanish LEO's have access to a database that shows all insurance /tax details on Spanish plated vehicles. Once you have been stopped or a photo taken - the plate is also in the system. In April I have to attend a course for the NEW version with Police and Juridical folk.

There are several reasons for the "purge" 

1) Revenue - they'd prefer you pay here than the UK and frankly the prices here are lower. Insurance is a bit higher 'tis true. But if you're not paying (for example) UK tax then often insurance is invalidated. I do have a friend here who KNOWS this for fact.

2) There are a HIGH number of uninsured foreign cars in Spain

3) They're also after a few naughty chaps who tend to steal and re-plate cars.

On a personal note - I think you're risking your life driving an RHD car here.


----------



## jojo

chris(madrid) said:


> On a personal note - I think you're risking your life driving an RHD car here.


Yes!! I totally agree with that one!!! If RHD was deemed safe then all cars would be right hand drive IMO. There must be a reason why they go to so much trouble to have the driving seat on different sides for different countries (well Britain etc)

BTW, Nice to see you posting Chris 


Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Yes!! I totally agree with that one!!! If RHD was deemed safe then all cars would be right hand drive IMO. There must be a reason why they go to so much trouble to have the driving seat on different sides for different countries (well Britain etc)
> 
> BTW, Nice to see you posting Chris
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I've been driving RHD minibuses and cars in Europe for decades, no problem if you are ultra-careful but yes, it's better to have LHD in countries where you drive on the right. I'm not sure how many countries still drive on the left. 
And of course it's equally true if you take your LHD to the UK.
As for insurance: if I have been 'mis-sold' a policy and in spite of assurances that I'm fully covered, I'm not......then I have grounds for legal action.
You can't go around defrauding people over such a serious matter as motor insurance. There must be thousands of Brits here who have taken out such policies.
This needs looking into.


----------



## Rofa

This may or may not help, but my "Spanish" insurance co (it's one of those who readily insure UK plated cars) require both UK Road Tax and UK MOT - although they will accept a Spanish ITV if the car is on it's way back to the UK after the MOT has expired.


----------



## mrypg9

Rofa said:


> This may or may not help, but my "Spanish" insurance co (it's one of those who readily insure UK plated cars) require both UK Road Tax and UK MOT - although they will accept a Spanish ITV if the car is on it's way back to the UK after the MOT has expired.


I had an extensive conversation with my insurer this morning and it was made clear that my vehicle required proof of 'roadworthiness' i.e. MOT or ITV but not Road Tax.
I have never found possession of a UK Road Tax to be a prerequisite for insurability.
Whilst an MOT is required for both Road Tax and insurance, it should be noted that an MOT certificate states that the vehicle is roadworthy *at the time of testing *and that the requirement is for minimum standards only to be met.
One of our UK businesses of a few years ago involved ownership of an MOT Test Station . 
It is a misconception but sadly a common one that possession of an MOT guarantees a year of trouble-free motoring. It's amazing how many people who have problems with their car plaintively bemoan that 'it was MOT'ed only a month ago'.
Of course reputable garages will advise of anything which may qualify as a 'pass' on a particular date but which in the opinion of the tester may require attention in the near future.
Better than nothing though and better than the biennial test which is standard in many European countries.


----------



## VFR

Road Traffic Act – any Acts, Laws or Regulations, which govern the
driving or use of any motor vehicle in Great Britain, Northern Ireland,
the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
---------------------------------------------

I have just taken the above from Direct Line's UK site & the above must be complied with, you will also see on the site that they often say that they can revoke the cover as if "it never existed".
They could if pushed by the assessor revoke cover for the simple fitting of an MP3 etc etc if the policy holder "has not" asked for permission to fit.

The above though would only be looked at in the event of a big payout event & its the assessors job to limit the company's exposure by checking the smallest details.
The onus is always on the policy holder "to declare" and not on the policy seller "to ask" (as far as I know)

So on balance I would say no tax = no cover if its likely that the bill is going to be big. That being the case ?, the UK registered vehicles here that are untaxed & being driven by property owners are (as has been said) taking a big risk.

RHD in a LHD country.
Well a competent driver will make an allowance for overtaking/junctions as this is the only area that can cause concern (IMO) In fact being in the kerb can be an advantage in the villages and on occasion on a twisty road where you can see ahead before the LHD behind by being in the kerb looking up the inside.
Do you know that all HGV's in Italy used to be RHD until they allowed other makes to be sold there alongside Fiats (late 70's) as in the small villages the driver was nearer the pedestrians.
Let us not also forget that a competent driver who has spent years upon years driving RHD can drive through gaps where water would not flow (I exaggerate of course)
I have though spent many years (to many) driving RHD/LHD vehicles throughout Europe and beyond so my view may be biased 

Dangerous.
Some of the junctions here are lethal IMO, where an exit slip combines with an entry slip.
The habit of putting waiting traffic into the middle of the road could easily wander into fast moving vehicles passing on the nearside.
Allowing vehicles to exit a roundabout from the inner lane across the bows of vehicles in the outer lane is quite simply a recipe for disaster for the non wary.

Still I like it here, its is better & lets hope it does not change to much (well a Little tweak maybe )


----------



## mrypg9

playamonte said:


> So on balance I would say no tax = no cover if its likely that the bill is going to be big. That being the case ?, the UK registered vehicles here that are untaxed & being driven by property owners are (as has been said) taking a big risk.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well, I've done all I can to ensure that I'm Third Party covered. I can't accuse the poor woman from Knights of lying when she said I would still be covered when my Road Tax runs out.
> A previous broker I used sent me a note confirming I would be covered without Road Tax.
> So what more can anyone do?
> As for RHD, I agree with you completely. I prefer driving my LHD car here but feel equally secure when driiving RHD. I've clocked up an awful lot of miles on RHD vehicles of all shapes and sizes over more than three decades in a dozen or more European countries with zero problems.
> I have NEVER been involved in a large claim - in fact I haven't had any claims made against me - I know this may be tempting fate so fingers crossed -and I have no property or substantial assets in Spain or directly in the UK for that matter.
> As far as I am concerned, I have Third Party cover which is all I'm concerned about.
> If I smash my car or myself, tough.


----------



## VFR

mrypg9 said:


> playamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> So on balance I would say no tax = no cover if its likely that the bill is going to be big. That being the case ?, the UK registered vehicles here that are untaxed & being driven by property owners are (as has been said) taking a big risk.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well, I've done all I can to ensure that I'm Third Party covered. I can't accuse the poor woman from Knights of lying when she said I would still be covered when my Road Tax runs out.
> A previous broker I used sent me a note confirming I would be covered without Road Tax.
> So what more can anyone do?
> As for RHD, I agree with you completely. I prefer driving my LHD car here but feel equally secure when driiving RHD. I've clocked up an awful lot of miles on RHD vehicles of all shapes and sizes over more than three decades in a dozen or more European countries with zero problems.
> I have NEVER been involved in a large claim - in fact I haven't had any claims made against me - I know this may be tempting fate so fingers crossed -and I have no property or substantial assets in Spain or directly in the UK for that matter.
> As far as I am concerned, I have Third Party cover which is all I'm concerned about.
> If I smash my car or myself, tough.
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies as I should have mentioned that yes they must cover third party regardless, their only issue is about paying the policy holder for any lose.
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

playamonte said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies as I should have mentioned that yes they must cover third party regardless, their only issue is about paying the policy holder for any lose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thankyou so much, Playamonte
> That is what I have been trying to get over -unsuccessfully -in my posts.
> As I keep on saying, I'm not concerned about my car or self, it's the third party cover that's of paramount importance.
> You have with one sentence dispelled much confusion and misconception.
Click to expand...


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> playamonte said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thankyou so much, Playamonte
> That is what I have been trying to get over -unsuccessfully -in my posts.
> As I keep on saying, I'm not concerned about my car or self, it's the third party cover that's of paramount importance.
> You have with one sentence dispelled much confusion and misconception.
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting silly, you can hear what you want to hear . Dont listen to your insurance company, go to traffico and ask!
> 
> I can point you to a thread on another forum about your insurance company allegedly lying to someone!
> 
> YOU are a Spanish resident
> Therefore any car you are driving on UK plates has to be in the process of matriculation or already matriculated.
> 
> So .... if you are driving a Uk plated car as a Spanish resident and are hauled over by the Police and they check all this then you will be in the wrong. So is that car legal on the Spanish roads at that moment? I wouldnt like to bet on the Police take on that  So is your third party insurance valid?
> 
> The 6 month rule is cumulative, but that applies to your daughter ... not to you.
> All else is correct re the MOT & Tax ... as far as your daughter driving is concerned, as she's not a resident
> 
> I know a couple down the road that still own a house in the UK, and because of that (although they live here full time) they have decided that they dont need to be residents here and dont need to fulfill any of the rules. Its strange how people can interpret things so it can suit them aint it
Click to expand...


----------



## chris(madrid)

Stravinsky said:


> Dont listen to your insurance company, go to traffico and ask! -- if you are driving a Uk plated car as a Spanish resident and are hauled over by the Police and they check all this then you will be in the wrong. So is that car legal on the Spanish roads at that moment? I wouldnt like to bet on the Police take on that  So is your third party insurance valid?


According to the Police and GC I see almost daily at work - Erm in all probability - illegal.

First stop they'd probably warn and report - unless it's also following an accident or they're specifically checking for untaxed/insured expat vehicles. 

Specialised Traffic officers will probably fine you and could well impound the car. They're not dumb - and know where to look for TAX discs etc and know what Mot/TüV details are.

If the car is not in your name - then they're entitled to impound until the legal owner turns up. If tax is missing they can and often do inform the DVLC.

Thereafter they'll be looking for you - 2nd time you'll be nicked and probably be charged with all sorts of stuff. They'd go over the car with a fine toothed comb. It's VERY easy for an Insurance co to get out of paying. They pay lawyers to do so. 

But hey - it's your decision :ranger:


----------



## mrypg9

chris(madrid) said:


> But hey - it's your decision :ranger:


Quite. My choice is to go with past motor-trade experience and Playamonte.
I am sure that I have Third Party cover and as I have repeatedly said, I'm not bothered what happens to the car which will in all probability stay here for my family to use on their frequent visits.
We shall buy a Spanish-plated similar vehicle for our sunshine days use.
My major concerns will continue to be the Euro crisis, unnecessary wars, low interest rates and the decline in value of the £.
Incidentally, since this thread began, I've been carrying out a survey of UK plated vehicles around here. The number of UNTAXED vehicles (naughty!) is simply amazing.
Every day I see at least ten different, some LHD, some RHD, most newish all on UK plates. 
And no, it doesn't make it right but it will make a lot of work for the Guardia (who yesterday were parked on the roundabout ignoring them) and I dare say most of the owners will be more concerned about possible loss of their car, house,bank accounts cat, dog etc than I am.


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can point you to a thread on another forum about your insurance company allegedly lying to someone!
> 
> 
> 
> And the word is 'allegedly'.
> Of course a lot of the stories are true. But a lot are anecdotal, a 'friend-of-a -friend.'
> I'm sure a reputed broker like Knights, in business here for forty years with mainly British clients, wouldn't be in business if they lied about such an important issue as whether or not a policy were valid.
> It would be interesting though to see if they could be tempted to add their tuppence-worth to this thread. I'll contact them again.
> Like many posters on this site, my OH and I have between us lived in or spent long periods of time in over six countries; one day I'm going to write a book about the advice -often conflicting -we've received from fellow-Brits.
> We couldn't have survived so easily without their help and advice on many things but we had to fall back on our own experience and judgment when we were told conflicting things.
Click to expand...


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the word is 'allegedly'.
> Of course a lot of the stories are true. But a lot are anecdotal, a 'friend-of-a -friend.'
> I'm sure a reputed broker like Knights, in business here for forty years with mainly British clients, wouldn't be in business if they lied about such an important issue as whether or not a policy were valid.
> It would be interesting though to see if they could be tempted to add their tuppence-worth to this thread. I'll contact them again.
> Like many posters on this site, my OH and I have between us lived in or spent long periods of time in over six countries; one day I'm going to write a book about the advice -often conflicting -we've received from fellow-Brits.
> We couldn't have survived so easily without their help and advice on many things but we had to fall back on our own experience and judgment when we were told conflicting things.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I give up ... you're right
> Totally disregard any advice that has been gleaned through experience and contact with authorities. I would never ignore comments by Chris (Madrid) because I know he works in the system.
> Don't bother with Knights, they wont be able to post here.
> Good luck with it
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I give up ... you're right
> Totally disregard any advice that has been gleaned through experience and contact with authorities. I would never ignore comments by Chris (Madrid) because I know he works in the system.
> Don't bother with Knights, they wont be able to post here.
> Good luck with it
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not giving up because you have raised a very serious issue that affects thousands of other Brits -in fact it affects them much more than it does me as I have rarely used the RHD UK plated car. Son and family use it when they're here, mainly, but not always - they've hired a car to go skiing.this weekend.
> The issue is this: it has been stated that such vehicles are not legal (which may be true in most circumstances) and that consequentially any insurance cover on them will be invalid.
> So if any of us are involved in an accident caused by one of these UK plated vehicles, taxed or otherwise, then we can expect no redress whether from damage to our vehicles or to ourselves??
> I find this quite horrifying, tbh, as there are hundreds if not thousands of UK plated cars in the Marbella - Estepona area most likely driven by residents. Many of the ones I see in the supermarket carpark I see on a weekly or even daily basis.
> So what you and Chris are saying is that many if not most of these cars have no valid Third Party cover????
> Frankly, I'm much more concerned about that than any problems with my car. Most of the time I'm in my Spanish legal car yet I'm apparently sharing the road with uninsured drivers
Click to expand...


----------



## Rofa

It seems to me we need a sticky which covers some very key points. These as far as I can tell are:

1.It is illegal for a Resident of Spain to drive a foreign plated car. Probably true but a link to an official website is really necessary. In Finland it is also true BUT a resident can actually drive a foreign plated car if the owner is present.
2.It is illegal to keep a foreign plated car on the road for more than 6 months or whatever. Probably true, but what does the law actually say – again a link to an official Spanish website is necessary. 
3.It is illegal to drive any car unless it complies with the law of the country it is registered in – yes probably true but we need a website again.

All this must be written down somewhere & unfortunately I don't know where – it's there as far as I recall on the DVLA website for foreign cars coming into the UK – whether or not the rules apply across the whole of the EU I also don't know. 

That seems to be the legal bit. On the insurance front, the insurance companies are obliged to pay out 3rd Party claims regardless of whether the policyholder is complying with the law or not – and this applies both in Spain and the UK – but whether they then sue your socks off is up to them – or so I am told by several brokers.


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not giving up because you have raised a very serious issue that affects thousands of other Brits -in fact it affects them much more than it does me as I have rarely used the RHD UK plated car. Son and family use it when they're here, mainly, but not always - they've hired a car to go skiing.this weekend.
> The issue is this: it has been stated that such vehicles are not legal (which may be true in most circumstances) and that consequentially any insurance cover on them will be invalid.
> So if any of us are involved in an accident caused by one of these UK plated vehicles, taxed or otherwise, then we can expect no redress whether from damage to our vehicles or to ourselves??
> I find this quite horrifying, tbh, as there are hundreds if not thousands of UK plated cars in the Marbella - Estepona area most likely driven by residents. Many of the ones I see in the supermarket carpark I see on a weekly or even daily basis.
> So what you and Chris are saying is that many if not most of these cars have no valid Third Party cover????
> Frankly, I'm much more concerned about that than any problems with my car. Most of the time I'm in my Spanish legal car yet I'm apparently sharing the road with uninsured drivers
> 
> 
> 
> You see the thing is ... its not new news. Its been discussed to death on numerous forums, always with the same result / conclusion. This is why I get annoyed about it. There are any number of UK plated cars running around this country driven by British ex pat Spanish residents .... and they aren't allowed to do it. Most don't even bother with road tax and MOT in the UK either ... they have often been driving them illegally here for years. Some get an IVA which of course isn't worth very much on a UK plated car! But of course the station will take your money.
> 
> As for insurance .... who knows, but knowing insurance companies propensity for doing anything to get out of paying insurance claims I wonder how they will react when someone in these circumstances causes an accident, killing someone. When the Spanish Police state that the car was driven illegally, just how will the insurance company react faced with a massive claim possibly running into hundreds of thousands of euros??
> 
> So to recap ...
> 
> A spanish resident has to start the process for matriculation of a UK plated car within 30 days of residency. He shouldn't be driving a UK plated car as a Spanish resident.
> 
> A UK plated car here in Spain must be legal in the country of registration at all times. Your insurance company should confirm this. If they don't, well, theres something wrong.
> 
> A Uk plated car can be kept here in Spain by a non resident (i.e. for holiday use) but has to be legal in the country of registration, and can only be used for 6 months in any year BY A NON RESIDENT
> 
> Now its not for me to comment on insurance companies insuring illegal cars, but I'm guessing that somewhere in the policy it will state that the onus is on the insured person to notify of any change in the cars status. I guess if no one tells them that the car no longer has an MOT then theres no way they will know.
> 
> Unfortunately in Spain there are loads of expats that dont bother registering, dont bother adhering to the laws of Spain, and seem to think its quite OK to do so. So maybe you will forgive me when I get frustrated about the subject.
Click to expand...


----------



## jojo

....well apparently the guardia are finally trying to catch these illegal cars!! Saw some out again today, I was in my LHD car so I wasnt stopped, but I saw they were flagging down RHD cars

Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

Stravinsky said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Uk plated car can be kept here in Spain by a non resident (i.e. for holiday use) and can only be used for 6 months in any year BY A NON RESIDENT
> 
> 
> 
> And that is exactly why I would like to see what is written down. Does this mean I can keep my car at the airport car park (or in my garage) for more than 6 months as long as I don't actually drive it for more than 6 months? Seems to be what you are saying.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> ....well apparently the guardia are finally trying to catch these illegal cars!! Saw some out again today, I was in my LHD car so I wasnt stopped, but I saw they were flagging down RHD cars
> 
> Jo xxx


Well you can never tell with those guys - only time I was ever stopped in a RHD car, I gave the guy the shock of his life by getting out of the "wrong" side of the car. He gave me a smart salute, apologised for stopping me and sent me on my way. There are enough Brits in Spain committing more serious crimes and they look for them as well


----------



## jojo

Rofa said:


> Well you can never tell with those guys - only time I was ever stopped in a RHD car, I gave the guy the shock of his life by getting out of the "wrong" side of the car. He gave me a smart salute, apologised for stopping me and sent me on my way. There are enough Brits in Spain committing more serious crimes and they look for them as well



well the word around here is that that's their latest "target group"!!???? Whether its a worthy reason or not - its not for us to tell them what criminals they should be chasing!

Jo xx


----------



## gus-lopez

Rofa said:


> Well you can never tell with those guys - only time I was ever stopped in a RHD car, I gave the guy the shock of his life by getting out of the "wrong" side of the car. He gave me a smart salute, apologised for stopping me and sent me on my way. There are enough Brits in Spain committing more serious crimes and they look for them as well


Yes, that's right. There is no way of checking now that EU citizens are no longer required to have their cars sealed ( precintado ) for 6 mths. Also the 6 mths applies to you, the owner, not the car . I.E. if you are in Spain without the car, then drive it back here from the UK, you can only drive it legally in Spain for 2 mths in that calendar year. The only way you can prove you haven't been driving it is to show that you have been out of the country by way of flight, ferry or rail tickets or insist on your passport being stamped on entry & exit.
Info. from 'You & the law in Spain'


----------



## Stravinsky

Rofa said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> And that is exactly why I would like to see what is written down. Does this mean I can keep my car at the airport car park (or in my garage) for more than 6 months as long as I don't actually drive it for more than 6 months? Seems to be what you are saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, quite correct
Click to expand...


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> its not for us to tell them what criminals they should be chasing!
> 
> Jo xx


I wasn't.


----------



## mrypg9

So....to clarify as far as is possible: my UK plated car with tax and MOT until next August and which is kept off the road on private property is legal as long as it is driven by my family who own property here but are most definitely non-resident.
If I drive it I will still have third party insurance cover but am breaking a law which states that as a resident I cannot do so.
I am as sure as anyone can be that my third party insurance covers me now and would do so even if I had no UK tax but would not if it had no MOT. Were that not the case then as I said every resident driver of a UK plated car, taxed or not, is a potential danger to other road users and the implications of that are simply too horrendous for it to be the case.
An MOT does not per se imply that your car is roadworthy even a day after the test. But any responsible driver will maintain their vehicle to the best possible standard, something I've always done, for my own safety as well as that of others.
The fact is that no-one really knows the correct interpretation of these rules. It could even ultimately depend on the mood and attitude to foreigners of the Guardia who stops you, and of course your attitude to them. The Guardia who stopped me because I had stupidly forgotten to switch on my lights at 8pm in December merely told me to switch them on. In Prague that would have incurred an immediate extortionate fine and possibly the hope of a bribe. The refusal of an insurance claim can depend on the many variables of the particular situation - you can't deduce a general rule from what happened to expat Bert.
I don't drive under the influence or use my mobile or exceed speed limits and I have an unblemished decades long driving record and I am certainly not trying to evade any responsibilities. I'm sure there are many who do. But equally I tend to be averse to taking as gospel advice from laypeople on matters that are essentially legal when as in this case there is a certain amount of confusion.
Stravinsky and other posters have given me excellent advice and information on several issues, advice which has saved me time and money and in one case possible prosecution (Strav's info re UK Driving Licence). I'm very grateful for this.
But I think here we're all floundering in a fog of confusion.
So.....options open to me as I see it are: leave my car for sole use by my family when they visit, which is more or less what happens now, matriculate it for my use or buy a LHD Spanish plated vehicle. I think the last of these options is the more likely.
But if tomorrow my other legal vehicle has a puncture/flat battery/any other default and I urgently need the use of a vehicle for a non-trivial reason I will drive my UK car confident that I am third-party insured and that I am not a criminal or tax-evader of the Myra Hindley or Lord Ashcroft type.


----------



## jojo

My only worry Mary is that if you do have an accident (god forbid) - your fault or not and you seriously injure someone or worse, would your insurance company use "any" excuse they could find to wriggle out of it and not pay up to anyone???

The guardia stopping you is one thing, an accident where insurance assessors and correct traffico laws are involved is something else and if there's any doubt..........

I'm not having a go at all BTW, just airing my concerns


Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> would your insurance company use "any" excuse they could find to wriggle out of it and not pay up to anyone???
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


And the fog of confusion continues. They have to pay out 3rd party.


----------



## jojo

Rofa said:


> And the fog of confusion continues. They have to pay out 3rd party.



NOT if the car is deemed in any way illegal 

We're going round in circles! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> NOT if the car is deemed in any way illegal
> 
> We're going round in circles!
> 
> Jo xxx


Here I am absolutely sure you are wrong. What can (and will probably happen) is that, if you have comprehensive cover and have have not complied with the regulations, then the payout to you the policyholder for damage to your own car will be affected. 

And what for goodness sake is an illegal car!


----------



## jojo

Rofa said:


> Here I am absolutely sure you are wrong. What can (and will probably happen) is that, if you have comprehensive cover and have have not complied with the regulations, then the payout to you the policyholder for damage to your own car will be affected.
> 
> And what for goodness sake is an illegal car!



We've gone over this several times already, have a re-read. Stravinski is your man, he knows everything about cars in Spain, insurance and the law. I cant go round and round anymore, I'm getting dizzy lol and bored. Someone else can answer you

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> NOT if the car is deemed in any way illegal
> 
> We're going round in circles!
> 
> Jo xxx


The car isn't illegal at this time. I would be.if I drove it, that much seems pretty certain.. I am 100% convinced that I will have Third Party cover if all that were missing were UK Road Tax which is currently the case and will be for months.
I am not bothered about myself or my car, just other people and their cars..
And with the greatest of respect to Stravinsky and others, they are as far as I know neither lawyers or motor insurance assessors and on this particular issue know as much as any of us intelligent posters!!
We had a lot of experience with insurance assessors when we were involved with a business which specialised in accident damage repairs and I know just how thoroughly they can go into details when any claim is made. 
But for the protection of the greater public, it would be rare -very rare -for any third party liability to be ignored for something such as lack of UK Road Tax which in no way affects the roadworthiness of the vehicle.
MOT is a different matter tho' and remember you can extend your Road Tax beyond the life of your MOT if you renew in time.
Which has always seemed the wrong way round to me...
Remember: if all those drivers of UK plated cars are illegal and have no insurance......Spanish roads are very dangerous places as there must be tens of thousands of them!
And they're all in Carrefour Estepona so beware!!!!
Seriously, though, I'd guess that for most of these Brits their UK car is their only car.......so why not matriculate the wretched vehicle? If I had only one UK plated car I'd have made that a priority.


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> I'm getting dizzy lol
> 
> Jo xxx


Dizzy? No no can't be - only one solution - you'll have to change the hair colour:bounce:


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> So....to clarify as far as is possible: my UK plated car with tax and MOT until next August and which is kept off the road on private property is legal as long as it is driven by my family who own property here but are most definitely non-resident.
> If I drive it I will still have third party insurance cover but am breaking a law which states that as a resident I cannot do so.
> I am as sure as anyone can be that my third party insurance covers me now and would do so even if I had no UK tax but would not if it had no MOT. Were that not the case then as I said every resident driver of a UK plated car, taxed or not, is a potential danger to other road users and the implications of that are simply too horrendous for it to be the case.
> An MOT does not per se imply that your car is roadworthy even a day after the test. But any responsible driver will maintain their vehicle to the best possible standard, something I've always done, for my own safety as well as that of others.
> The fact is that no-one really knows the correct interpretation of these rules. It could even ultimately depend on the mood and attitude to foreigners of the Guardia who stops you, and of course your attitude to them. The Guardia who stopped me because I had stupidly forgotten to switch on my lights at 8pm in December merely told me to switch them on. In Prague that would have incurred an immediate extortionate fine and possibly the hope of a bribe. The refusal of an insurance claim can depend on the many variables of the particular situation - you can't deduce a general rule from what happened to expat Bert.
> I don't drive under the influence or use my mobile or exceed speed limits and I have an unblemished decades long driving record and I am certainly not trying to evade any responsibilities. I'm sure there are many who do. But equally I tend to be averse to taking as gospel advice from laypeople on matters that are essentially legal when as in this case there is a certain amount of confusion.
> Stravinsky and other posters have given me excellent advice and information on several issues, advice which has saved me time and money and in one case possible prosecution (Strav's info re UK Driving Licence). I'm very grateful for this.
> But I think here we're all floundering in a fog of confusion.
> So.....options open to me as I see it are: leave my car for sole use by my family when they visit, which is more or less what happens now, matriculate it for my use or buy a LHD Spanish plated vehicle. I think the last of these options is the more likely.
> But if tomorrow my other legal vehicle has a puncture/flat battery/any other default and I urgently need the use of a vehicle for a non-trivial reason I will drive my UK car confident that I am third-party insured and that I am not a criminal or tax-evader of the Myra Hindley or Lord Ashcroft type.


There is no fog of confusion. I dont understand what you are talking about and to be honest am beginning to lose my patience because you just seem to read what I say and totally disregard it.

I know what the rules are. I took the trouble to research it and as I said to you before it has been discussed in great detail elsewhere by those far more knowledgeable than me and those that have gone to traffico, to DVLA etc and researched it.

The only confusion is how your insurance company will treat you if you are driving it and have an accident ... i.e. when it comes down to brass tacks. If theres a €500,000 claim which they have to pay even if it's third party .... will they just say to you oh well, never mind!

As I said, I only spend (probably too much) time on these forums to pass on information and fact that I and other moderators have taken the trouble to assimilate over many years. If you choose to ignore it then thats for you to do so. Please though do not try to infer on here that there is confusion, and that it is acceptable.

With that, I am definately out of here as I am clearly wasting my time and effort typing long posts on the subject.


----------



## jojo

..... and my last word on the subject is that if an insurance company can get out of paying out to anybody, fully comp, third party....... anyone for whatever silly little reason they can find, they will - rest assured of that! So if there's any discrepancy, question or confusion, however innocent or trivial, they'll use it and WILL NOT pay out!

As for all those Brits who are driving their unmatriculated RHD cars without tax or MoTs, ITVs etc - yes there are lots around, the guardia are having a purge on them and in the meantime, I hope they dont crash, injure or kill either their families in their cars or some innocent party


Jo the head spinning blonde lol xxxx


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> The only confusion is how your insurance company will treat you if you are driving it and have an accident ... i.e. when it comes down to brass tacks. If theres a €500,000 claim which they have to pay even if it's third party .... will they just say to you oh well, never mind!
> 
> Please though do not try to infer on here that there is confusion, and that it is acceptable.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well, you've just managed to contradict yourself.
> There _is _ confusion, you've just admitted it and this is an important topic. I do not find any kind of confusion 'acceptable' and have never said or implied that I do. That is why I am pressing my point.
> If I have an accident my third party cover will be honoured. If the accident is of a serious and expensive nature I could then be sued by my insurance company. I think that's right and fair.
> So if you see me or any other Brit driving a UK plated car you need have no worries since you will be compensated/reimbursed if I run into you.
> I respect the amount of information you and others have amassed from living here longer than many of us and I am sure you are correct in 99% of cases.
> But I'm not the only person to tell you that you are wrong on this.
> I also remember one or two instances where you have given me correct and important information, as I have acknowledged, but there was also an instance where you posted incorrect information which when challenged you graciously admitted you had got wrong. (Dual taxation not levied on UK Government Pensions).
> My patience is running thin too as I am as convinced as you that on this question of third party cover obligations being met, I am correct. You think you're right, I think I'm right. Stalemate. Neither of us should pick up the ball and run - we simply disagree.
> After all, like you, I can only gain my information from reading what is available and listening to the views of others - others such as Playamonte and Rofa for example -then using my judgment.
> This is at the end of the day a forum of helpful amateurs, after all.
> People on forums very kindly give their advice and take time and trouble to do so.
> But you have to make up your own mind as you can only blame yourself if things go wrong. You don't blame the messenger.
> When I was involved in casework and giving advice on a range of topics, my organisation covered me against any possible legal action against me for incorrect advice or information I may have unintentionally given. People paid for this advice so they had the right to do this if I mislead them, imo.
> You don't charge for your advice, you give it out of kindness and the desire to help so it's up to us to act on it or not.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo;244287!
As for all those Brits who are driving their unmatriculated RHD cars without tax or MoTs said:


> As do I.
> But the insurance company will pay the injured parties first then turn their attention to the driver of the car, at least where the only issue is one of lack of Road Tax.. If the claim is considerable then there is a very high risk of the driver being sued in a personal capacity....and quite right too.
> If I knowingly drive under those conditions I deserve to be sued. I wouldn't argue about that.
> I think people who drive without itv, MOT or without having their car regularly serviced and maintained deserve everything they get.
> But in this discussion we've ignored the question of Spanish drivers who haven't paid local road tax on their cars? Does that mean they're not insured? I bet there's a lot of them.
> Surely they are in the same position as a UK driver in Spain with no Road Tax.
> Another interesting point: I notice that whereas in the UK my insurance policy stated that I could drive any vehicle, here both my policies state that my vehicle insurance covers any licensed driver between the ages of 30 and 70.
> So it seems that in the UK it's the person that's covered whereas here it's the car...


----------



## gus-lopez

"Did you know that not having car tax invalidates your motor insurance?
A lot of people don’t realise that if they ‘forget’ to renew their road tax when it runs out – or don’t purchase it at all – then their car insurance is null and void. If they are involved in an accident while untaxed, then they will essentially be uninsured and will be subject to all the consequences as described above. Even if they have been paying their car insurance, it won’t make any difference – you’re still guilty of committing a criminal offence." 

The above is an excerpt from the following site. To read in full, click on left box 'other offences', scroll to 'Legal implications of no tax & ins.'

Driving without Insurance, Tax or MOT - No Penalty Points (UK)


----------



## VFR

This link may (?) help 
The Fourth and Fifth EU Motor Insurance Directives

Yes of course the game is now up for the vast bulk of UK plated vehicles over here & as they are effectively not worth 2 bob now either get them changed over or scrap the ******s.
Still Mary is talking about a UK plated car that is fully stamped up and living here off-road, that is owned by a UK resident and driven here for a short time on their own insurance policy whilst on holiday that is owned by them. (correct?)

So as it now appears that a Spanish national/Resident cannot drive a non Spanish plated vehicle (strange law) Mary could face a fine for doing so if caught & if involved in an accident in the vehicle the insurers may well decline to pay any losses on the insured persons policy, the Third Party would though be able to claim under the above link I believe.

BTW I did have a UK plated car that a skip lorry backed into & insured with Knights, car was repaired to a high standard with no quibbles. That was a few years back mind & am all Spanish now.

Interesting thread IMO and I have learnt a thing or two from it


----------



## gus-lopez

"So as it now appears that a Spanish national/Resident cannot drive a non Spanish plated vehicle (strange law)"

The Portugese brought the same law into effect, I think in Jan. 2008 drafted so that Spanish could drive into Portugal ( many Spaniards work in Portugal, the Portugese health service is 11% Spanish employees ) "a reasonable distance" to work. Unfortunately the Portugese police interpreted "a reasonable distance " as 500metres and started impounding vehicles. One Spanish Doctor said 'I can only drive a Spanish car in Spain & a Portugese one in Portugal, where do I leave each one to get the other, It's utter nonsense'. took a few months for them to sort that lot out. Now they are allowed to use their vehicles to travel to their place of work & residence if any. By the way they have also crept this in , in the UK. If you are stopped it's up to you to prove that you do not live in the UK, by way of ferry tickets, passport stamp, etc. ( If you go back for an extended period the max is 6 mths, then the vehicle has to go or be transferred onto UK plates.) If not they'll impound the vehicle. Another point worth mentioning is that all Spanish policies insure the vehicle for drivers over 25/30 to drive. Technically anyone who is not the owner driving the vehicle should have a letter from the owner stating that he has given permission.
Another strange one. " Any foreign reg. vehicle cannot be signwritten to advertise a Spanish reg. business. " 
Another good one that was introduced when the points system was created is 
"It is an offence to accelerate to close the gap to the vehicle in front to prevent an overtaking vehicle from pulling back in." Even if he's overtaking on a double white line, over the brow of a hill or round a blind bend!
Another one I only found out about 18mths ago is you are allowed to exceed the posted speed limit by 20 kph to overtake!!!!! This dates back to before autovias but still applies. This is obviously why cameras on the autovias are set at 141km/hr.

Have you ever wondered why, when there's an accident all the Spaniards lay into the brakes & nearly cause another one ? This is because it is an offence to" fail to offer assistance". Even when the police are their I always ask if I can help just to cover myself, as years ago, If you just went through sometimes they'd pull you over just to get money out of you.


----------



## clojo2005

HELP....illegal UK car 

I am soo confused (which isnt hard!!). A year ago i legally brought my UK registered car over here, with the intention of taking it back to Britain as soon as possible. However it broke down (and was going to cost a fortune to repair) so it has since remained parked up outside my house on a public road. The tax, insurance and MOT have now expired and i dont know what to do. It is still registered in my name in the UK so i have had to declare it SORN.
Can someone please explain to me in simpleton terms how i can legally get rid of my car?? and all of the problems that come with it!!

Thanks


----------



## malagaman2005

clojo2005 said:


> HELP....illegal UK car
> 
> I am soo confused (which isnt hard!!). A year ago i legally brought my UK registered car over here, with the intention of taking it back to Britain as soon as possible. However it broke down (and was going to cost a fortune to repair) so it has since remained parked up outside my house on a public road. The tax, insurance and MOT have now expired and i dont know what to do. It is still registered in my name in the UK so i have had to declare it SORN.
> Can someone please explain to me in simpleton terms how i can legally get rid of my car?? and all of the problems that come with it!!
> 
> Thanks


I don't know if it's any help (not knowing what area you're in) but a friend recently visited a scrapyard in Malaga asking about scrapping a UK plated vehicle.
They will scrap the car, as long as the paperwork is in your name, and will pay 12 cents per kilo of weight. If you went down this route then all you would have to do is send off the notification that the vehicle has been scrapped to DVLA.


----------



## clojo2005

malagaman2005 said:


> I don't know if it's any help (not knowing what area you're in) but a friend recently visited a scrapyard in Malaga asking about scrapping a UK plated vehicle.
> They will scrap the car, as long as the paperwork is in your name, and will pay 12 cents per kilo of weight. If you went down this route then all you would have to do is send off the notification that the vehicle has been scrapped to DVLA.


Hiya malagaman, cheers for your advice  Do you know whether ur mates car was legally over here (cause mine isnt ). All the paperwork is in my name but the car has a SORN on it; which states thats its at my home address in the UK. 
I really do appreciate ur advice an will look into scrapping it locally. Hey an if i get paid then the rounds on me whenever ur over this way (Alicante/Valencia)


----------



## clojo2005

Scrapyards in Alicante or Valencia region

Hello, i am wondering if anybody knows of a car scrapyard that will take unwanted UK cars, in the Valencia or Alicante region.
Tried googling an all the rest but not having any joy

Thanks


----------



## Tallulah

clojo2005 said:


> Scrapyards in Alicante or Valencia region
> 
> Hello, i am wondering if anybody knows of a car scrapyard that will take unwanted UK cars, in the Valencia or Alicante region.
> Tried googling an all the rest but not having any joy
> 
> Thanks



A scrapyard is a desguace in Spanish..here are a couple of links listing them with their addresses in the regions you are looking for.


Desguaces alicante. Todos los desguaces en alicante

Desguaces valencia. Todos los desguaces en valencia



Tallulah.


----------



## clojo2005

thanks Tallulah, 
thats a great help. I've been sooo stressed (or should that be desserted?!) out with it all xx


----------



## clojo2005

Thanks Tallulah

Thats a great help, especially as i've been soo stressed out with it all (or should that be desserted?!) lol


----------



## ricardoylucia

Our car is RHD, fully legal etc (matriculated etc since we came here 6/7 years ago); anyway, we are in the process of renewing our insurance with LD (have done for many years) and in the course of the conversation, we double-checked about what paperwork was required to kept in the car. Besides all the normal documents, one piece of paper the police love to see, is a bankers receipt that the car insurance has been paid. 

Has anyone else heard about this?


----------



## jojo

ricardoylucia said:


> Our car is RHD, fully legal etc (matriculated etc since we came here 6/7 years ago); anyway, we are in the process of renewing our insurance with LD (have done for many years) and in the course of the conversation, we double-checked about what paperwork was required to kept in the car. Besides all the normal documents, one piece of paper the police love to see, is a bankers receipt that the car insurance has been paid.
> 
> Has anyone else heard about this?


Yes, but apparently that is no longer necessary - it was dropped a few months ago. However, I'm not sure that anyone has told the guardia, so its best to carry it around!! Also you need a receipt to prove that the tax has been paid!?!

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

ricardoylucia said:


> Our car is RHD, fully legal etc (matriculated etc since we came here 6/7 years ago); anyway, we are in the process of renewing our insurance with LD (have done for many years) and in the course of the conversation, we double-checked about what paperwork was required to kept in the car. Besides all the normal documents, one piece of paper the police love to see, is a bankers receipt that the car insurance has been paid.
> 
> Has anyone else heard about this?


Yep!! 

Put this link on another thread in a similar vein - all the paper/documents required. Not sure if you said "police love to see" tongue in cheek, but you'll note from the link that it's a legal requirement for insurance and road tax! Check out the fines!

Los papeles del coche: Pocos pero imprescindibles | Revista | CONSUMER EROSKI


Tallulah.x


----------



## ricardoylucia

Jo-Jo

Had heard about the receipt for tax as well.


----------



## ricardoylucia

Tallulah said:


> Yep!!
> 
> Put this link on another thread in a similar vein - all the paper/documents required. Not sure if you said "police love to see" tongue in cheek, but you'll note from the link that it's a legal requirement for insurance and road tax! Check out the fines!
> 
> Los papeles del coche: Pocos pero imprescindibles | Revista | CONSUMER EROSKI
> 
> 
> Tallulah.x


It was meant to be 'tongue in cheek'.


----------



## gus-lopez

Another one that is being removed is the need to carry spare bulbs & the tools to change them, as the gov. has agreed that with modern cars even in a garage it can take hrs. a much dismantling just to change a bulb. When the minister announced this a couple of weeks ago , to be put through asap, he apologised to the 13,000 drivers fined + points in the last year because it was supposed to be taken off the books a year ago ! lol They used to get between 2-4 million euros just for this offence alone. I 'll still keep mine in the car as the local police might not know, and it's not worth the arguments.


----------



## gus-lopez

ricardoylucia said:


> Our car is RHD, fully legal etc (matriculated etc since we came here 6/7 years ago); anyway, we are in the process of renewing our insurance with LD (have done for many years) and in the course of the conversation, we double-checked about what paperwork was required to kept in the car. Besides all the normal documents, one piece of paper the police love to see, is a bankers receipt that the car insurance has been paid.
> 
> Has anyone else heard about this?


The main reason for this was that Spanish companies, when you 1st take out insurance, issue a certificate but from then on it is the bank receipt each year with policy & vehicle details etc; that proves you have insurance. It is only since linea directa & others came on the scene and issued yearly certs. My 1st cert. I had 6 yrs, it only got changed when I bought another car last year.I'll still have to have the receipt in the car as my company don't issue yearly certs.The other thing about that system is that they don't take the money before the renewal but after, then it's about 2 weeks before the bank issues the receipt, so you are hoping not to be stopped for 3 or 4 weeks & have to explain it. Although most trafico know the delay as they suffer it themselves.


----------



## anles

Tallulah said:


> Yep!!
> 
> Put this link on another thread in a similar vein - all the paper/documents required. Not sure if you said "police love to see" tongue in cheek, but you'll note from the link that it's a legal requirement for insurance and road tax! Check out the fines!
> 
> Los papeles del coche: Pocos pero imprescindibles | Revista | CONSUMER EROSKI
> 
> 
> Tallulah.x


It's no longer obligatory to carry the receipt with you. On the other hand, I can't think of a batter place to keep in other than with the policy which you need to have with you in case you have an accident.
http://www.dgt.es/was6/portal/contenidos/documentos/prensa_campanas/notas_prensa/notaprensa102.pdf


----------



## Tallulah

anles said:


> It's no longer obligatory to carry the receipt with you. On the other hand, I can't think of a batter place to keep in other than with the policy which you need to have with you in case you have an accident.
> http://www.dgt.es/was6/portal/contenidos/documentos/prensa_campanas/notas_prensa/notaprensa102.pdf


Morning honey!!

Interesting that. Not something I would have wished for - but in any case it does make me wonder what would have happened if when we were stopped a few days ago and one of the agentes came by my window (on the left side) and immediately asked for permiso de conducir y papeles del coche. The time that passed from us stopping and him being at the window was not enough for him to have checked with the database to see if our car was insured. Interesting that the law in the pdf states that that is his first step, and only in failure to confirm, he would ask us for the papers. I guess it's easier to follow the old habits for them  but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened next if OH had said "Non teno os papeles no coche". According to the pre-change I would have been fined 10 euros and told to present the receipts. This new change suggests he shouldn't have asked me for the papers before checking with the database anyway. As I said, would have been interesting, but glad I wasn't the guineapig - and as the DGT suggest in the pdf, would be a good idea to keep the papers together in the car anyway. Which is exactly what I would do even if DGT hadn't stated this at the bottom of the text on the pdf. I've always been one for the easy route when it comes to the GC

Hope you're keeping warm up there!!


Tally.xxx


----------



## anles

Tallulah said:


> Morning honey!!
> 
> Interesting that. Not something I would have wished for - but in any case it does make me wonder what would have happened if when we were stopped a few days ago and one of the agentes came by my window (on the left side) and immediately asked for permiso de conducir y papeles del coche. The time that passed from us stopping and him being at the window was not enough for him to have checked with the database to see if our car was insured. Interesting that the law in the pdf states that that is his first step, and only in failure to confirm, he would ask us for the papers. I guess it's easier to follow the old habits for them  but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened next if OH had said "Non teno os papeles no coche". According to the pre-change I would have been fined 10 euros and told to present the receipts. This new change suggests he shouldn't have asked me for the papers before checking with the database anyway. As I said, would have been interesting, but glad I wasn't the guineapig - and as the DGT suggest in the pdf, would be a good idea to keep the papers together in the car anyway. Which is exactly what I would do even if DGT hadn't stated this at the bottom of the text on the pdf. I've always been one for the easy route when it comes to the GC
> 
> Hope you're keeping warm up there!!
> 
> 
> Tally.xxx


Hola Guapa 
I agree totally, I fully intend to keep all my relevant paperwork in the car as their is no point in trying to aggravate the authorities just to prove a point and have always found the GC to be helpful and respectful on the few occasions I have ever been stopped. And the whole point of having traffic police is to ensure that people are complying with the law. The majority of accidents are caused by people who are speeding, drunk driving or using their phone while driving so they are necessary. Having the receipt for your insurance is good too, as we pay heavily enough in Galicia for our insurance; I think the only reason for this measure is because of so many claims for people who had paid up to date but hadn't received the receipt from the bank, but as you have 30 days grace, it is your own responsability to make sure your bank sends it through within this period, if not you can obtain a duplicate immediately, so it's no big deal.
It's chilly here at night but the afternoons are glorious. In fact, in general this winter, I have spent far less on heating than previous years. What's it been like there? 
Anles  xxx


----------



## Tallulah

anles said:


> Hola Guapa
> I agree totally, I fully intend to keep all my relevant paperwork in the car as their is no point in trying to aggravate the authorities just to prove a point and have always found the GC to be helpful and respectful on the few occasions I have ever been stopped. And the whole point of having traffic police is to ensure that people are complying with the law. The majority of accidents are caused by people who are speeding, drunk driving or using their phone while driving so they are necessary. Having the receipt for your insurance is good too, as we pay heavily enough in Galicia for our insurance; I think the only reason for this measure is because of so many claims for people who had paid up to date but hadn't received the receipt from the bank, but as you have 30 days grace, it is your own responsability to make sure your bank sends it through within this period, if not you can obtain a duplicate immediately, so it's no big deal.
> It's chilly here at night but the afternoons are glorious. In fact, in general this winter, I have spent far less on heating than previous years. What's it been like there?
> Anles  xxx


Pretty much the same here nena! Glorious sunshine right now for example - though we have had quite a bit of xiada at night. It can't be too bad overnight though because the central heating fuel isn't going down anywhere near as fast as we thought it would....so obviously not coming on too much at night to stop us freezing!! Just going to take a long walk with kids and dog now to walk off the festivo excesses - dunno about you, but with Entroido going on, we've stuffed ourselves silly with bunuelos, filloas, orellas (the sweet kind, not the pig ones lol!) etc - and m-i-l is doing pulpo for lunch. 

Anyway, I'll catch you later!!
xxxx


----------



## rewdan

hi, my first post...Having read the thread could anyone point me at more discussion concerning ITV on uk cars. I live in the uk and keep a UK reg car at my holiday home in Ibiza, I drive it for a couple of months a year, otherwise it's garaged and I insure it with a Spanish broker whom have told me that I only need proof of road worthiness, an ITV, MOT etc for my insurance to be valid. Its now due so I need to decide if I need to bring it back to the uk once a year or go get an ITV. So far this is the only thread I have found touching on this.
Residence is not a problem as I am resident UK where the car is on a SORN.


----------



## xabiaxica

rewdan said:


> hi, my first post...Having read the thread could anyone point me at more discussion concerning ITV on uk cars. I live in the uk and keep a UK reg car at my holiday home in Ibiza, I drive it for a couple of months a year, otherwise it's garaged and I insure it with a Spanish broker whom have told me that I only need proof of road worthiness, an ITV, MOT etc for my insurance to be valid. Its now due so I need to decide if I need to bring it back to the uk once a year or go get an ITV. So far this is the only thread I have found touching on this.
> Residence is not a problem as I am resident UK where the car is on a SORN.


are you actually allowed to drive it in Spain if it's on a SORN?


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> are you actually allowed to drive it in Spain if it's on a SORN?


Good question. If a car isnt legal or covered to be driven in its country of origin and where it is taxed, insured etc. Then I doubt it legal to be driven anywhere?? The SORN declares that the vehicle is off the road - I doubt it means simply off the road in the UK cos its not there!?

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Good question. If a car isnt legal or covered to be driven in its country of origin and where it is taxed, insured etc. Then I doubt it legal to be driven anywhere?? The SORN declares that the vehicle is off the road - I doubt it means simply off the road in the UK cos its not there!?
> 
> Jo xxx


I know nothing about cars - can't drive!

but I did have a quick look at when to make a SORN



> When SORN is needed
> 
> SORN applies to all tax classes including those where no duty is payable, such as historic and disabled tax classes.
> 
> You must make a SORN if one of the following applies:
> 
> * if you don’t renew your vehicle tax and you are keeping the vehicle off the road
> * if you are applying for a refund of vehicle tax and keeping the vehicle off the road
> * if you buy an untaxed vehicle and do not tax it
> * every 12 months if you continue to keep your vehicle off the road
> * in advance if your vehicle is to be kept off the road in the UK when you’re abroad
> 
> You can make a SORN from the fifth day of the month in which the current tax disc or SORN is due to expire. SORN cannot be backdated.
> 
> Your SORN is valid for 12 months, unless you tax, sell, permanently export or scrap the vehicle before this period has ended. You should be sent a V11 reminder to let you know that your SORN is about to expire, which you can then use to renew your SORN or re-tax your vehicle.
> When SORN isn't needed
> 
> SORN isn’t needed if:
> 
> * you sell the vehicle
> * you scrap the vehicle or pass it to a scrap dealer
> * your insurance company has written off the vehicle
> * you take the vehicle abroad permanently
> * you apply for a refund of vehicle tax and don’t keep the vehicle
> * you are keeping the vehicle off the road and untaxed for less than 14 days
> * your vehicle was last taxed before 31 January 1998


----------



## rewdan

xabiachica said:


> are you actually allowed to drive it in Spain if it's on a SORN?


I was led to believe that I could by my insurer, they were not bothered whilst its in Spain. However, if I take the car back to the uk I will have to tax it.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> I was led to believe that I could by my insurer, they were not bothered whilst its in Spain. However, if I take the car back to the uk I will have to tax it.



All I know is that if a car cannot be legally driven in its country of origin then it cant be legally driven anywhere!! That said, cars are not my "forté" Stravinski knows alot altho he's not around very much. I'm sure he would say that all things have been covered on the forum already so it maybe worth having a bit of a search - The one thing I do know is that if your car is illegal in anyway, your insurance company wont "cough up" should you injure, kill or mame anyone whilst driving

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

As xabiachica posted SORN means exactly that, it's not on the road, anywhere. If the DVLA found you had reg. it SORN & were driving it in Spain & you are a UK resident you will be prosecuted. Here at my ITV station, (which I was in again last thursday ) there is a notice on the office window, in Dutch, German & English, stating that for foreign registered vehicles that take & pass the test it has no legal standing apart from the fact that the vehicle was roadworthy @ the time of the test & they do not issue the window sticker. As Jo said the EC law states that the vehicle MUST be legal in the country of registration, if it is not then it is not legal anywhere. 
When you take out any insurance , the policy conditions tell you that it is your responsibility to comply with any requirements necessary, like being road legal, or locking the house when you go out. Imho, by registering your vehicle SORN, in the event of an accident most insurers would take the view that you knowingly knew that the vehicle was illegal. In the case of the ITV around the Alicante area, this is the view of Trafíco officers when they see that the vehicle has an ITV, you are deemed to know that the vehicle requires an UK MOT, and get a ticket + re-registering to Spanish plates within 30 days.
Never believe anything any insurer tells you unless it is in writing, on official headed paper from the company.
For me any sensible person only has to ask themselves the question, " Would I legally be able to drive this in the UK ? " NO. 

Another thing to remember is that if you have an NIE number then you are considerd a resident of Spain by the authorities & subject to the same requirements as a Spaniard. That means you cannot, legally drive a vehicle that is foreign registered. 

I think by now we have flogged a :deadhorse:


----------



## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> As xabiachica posted SORN means exactly that, it's not on the road, anywhere. If the DVLA found you had reg. it SORN & were driving it in Spain & you are a UK resident you will be prosecuted. Here at my ITV station, (which I was in again last thursday ) there is a notice on the office window, in Dutch, German & English, stating that for foreign registered vehicles that take & pass the test it has no legal standing apart from the fact that the vehicle was roadworthy @ the time of the test & they do not issue the window sticker. As Jo said the EC law states that the vehicle MUST be legal in the country of registration, if it is not then it is not legal anywhere.
> When you take out any insurance , the policy conditions tell you that it is your responsibility to comply with any requirements necessary, like being road legal, or locking the house when you go out. Imho, by registering your vehicle SORN, in the event of an accident most insurers would take the view that you knowingly knew that the vehicle was illegal. In the case of the ITV around the Alicante area, this is the view of Trafíco officers when they see that the vehicle has an ITV, you are deemed to know that the vehicle requires an UK MOT, and get a ticket + re-registering to Spanish plates within 30 days.
> Never believe anything any insurer tells you unless it is in writing, on official headed paper from the company.
> For me any sensible person only has to ask themselves the question, " Would I legally be able to drive this in the UK ? " NO.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that if you have an NIE number then you are considerd a resident of Spain by the authorities & subject to the same requirements as a Spaniard. That means you cannot, legally drive a vehicle that is foreign registered.
> 
> I think by now we have flogged a :deadhorse:


Beautifully put Gus! I might even make your post a sticky - with Stravinskis agreement !

Jo xxx


----------



## shoemanpete

Hi, I cannot recall which thread or forum I saw this, but someone kindly enclosed a link with the details of the legalities of driving a UK reg car in Spain. In it, it stated that only the registered owner can drive the car here? Does that include the spouse who is insured to drive it? I am referring to the period up to the 183 days allowed initially. 
My wife would be only too happy :clap2: not to drive  , but not me!


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Never believe anything any insurer tells you unless it is in writing, on official headed paper from the company.
> .
> 
> I think by now we have flogged a :deadhorse:


Agreed. Apart from to note that I have obtained, in writing, an assurance from two insurance companies that I would be covered Third Party in Spain without UK Road Tax. I have it via e-mail and hard copy. I sought this assurance as at the time I had Road Tax but wasn't sure I could get the vehicle back to thye UK for tax and MOT when needed.
I am not so daft to assume otherwise!

So...my advice is go to the source for your information. Don't rely on advice from well-meaning amateurs.
Currently, my UK RHD car will be insured when the Road Tax runs out. The car will be legal but I will not be if I drive it as I am a resident. My son and family may drive it when they are here as they are not resident.
If I decide to drive the vehicle in an emergency I will do so in the knowledge that I am insured. The risk of prosecution is my responsibility and would be a victimless crime.
I never have ande never will drive any vehicle that a) is not roadworthy i.e. MOT or ITV or, more importantly, regularly serviced and b) I am 100% satisfied that I have minimum third party insurance cover.
Incidentally, has anyone paused to consider the status of drivers of Spanish registered cars with out-of-date SUMA? Is anyone suggesting that these vehicles are not insured?
And that as has been said, is the burial of said dead horse, as far as I'm concerned!!


----------



## gus-lopez

"Incidentally, has anyone paused to consider the status of drivers of Spanish registered cars with out-of-date SUMA? Is anyone suggesting that these vehicles are not insured?"

I will ask the question when I go into my Spanish broker next week & post the reply.


----------



## anles

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed. Apart from to note that I have obtained, in writing, an assurance from two insurance companies that I would be covered Third Party in Spain without UK Road Tax. I have it via e-mail and hard copy. I sought this assurance as at the time I had Road Tax but wasn't sure I could get the vehicle back to thye UK for tax and MOT when needed.
> I am not so daft to assume otherwise!
> 
> So...my advice is go to the source for your information. Don't rely on advice from well-meaning amateurs.
> Currently, my UK RHD car will be insured when the Road Tax runs out. The car will be legal but I will not be if I drive it as I am a resident. My son and family may drive it when they are here as they are not resident.
> If I decide to drive the vehicle in an emergency I will do so in the knowledge that I am insured. The risk of prosecution is my responsibility and would be a victimless crime.
> I never have ande never will drive any vehicle that a) is not roadworthy i.e. MOT or ITV or, more importantly, regularly serviced and b) I am 100% satisfied that I have minimum third party insurance cover.
> Incidentally, has anyone paused to consider the status of drivers of Spanish registered cars with out-of-date SUMA? Is anyone suggesting that these vehicles are not insured?
> And that as has been said, is the burial of said dead horse, as far as I'm concerned!!


SUMA is not a tax, it's an organisation created by in the province of Alicante which "colects" municipal taxes. The tax that you keep referring to is IVTM. As this thread is about whether or not british cars are legally driven in Spain and legally insured, i can't quite see the point in going on about whether the drivers of Spanish cars have paid the equivalent to road tax. However, as you are unable to sell or even scrap a car here without having the IVTM up to date, it's unlikely that many people have it unpaid. You have a voluntarily period in which to pay it with a reduction so it makes sense that most people pay within this period. If you don't pay it during this period you pay the full amount, after this you have an extended period in during which you have the obligation to pay, if this period passes and you still don't pay, then you pay an excess (recargo).


----------



## rewdan

[QUOTE=you take the vehicle abroad permanently

Thats interesting... As I have taken it abroad permanently and a SORN in a legal requirement, then the car is surely existing legally in the UK as its on a SORN register.

If you add to this that it's insured and the Insurer will accept an ITV as proof of roadworthiness, then the car could be deemed legal as long as its not driven on uk roads as in the uk it would need road tax.

Does that make any sense?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> you take the vehicle abroad permanently
> Thats interesting... As I have taken it abroad permanently and a SORN in a legal requirement said:
> 
> 
> 
> But SORN stands for "Statutory Off Road Notice". and if your car is abroad being used, its not "Off Road" its On Road - albeit a Spanish road??? It may not be on the road in the UK, but thats not what it states????????
> 
> Jo xxx
Click to expand...


----------



## rewdan

apologies for flogging the dead horse but I arrived late and as a non resident, perhaps bring a different angle to the thread.
As we have just seen, the car can be put on a SORN if it's permanently moved abroad, no mention of exported in the quote, just moved abroad. (Could be on a round the world expedition!!)
As for the Off Road bit of SORN, surely this only applies to UK roads as that is the limit of the state jurastiction of the UK. 
Also, I don't believe the uk can prosecute for driving offenses commited in other counties.
Life in the old horse yet?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> apologies for flogging the dead horse but I arrived late and as a non resident, perhaps bring a different angle to the thread.
> As we have just seen, the car can be put on a SORN if it's permanently moved abroad, no mention of exported in the quote, just moved abroad. (Could be on a round the world expedition!!)
> As for the Off Road bit of SORN, surely this only applies to UK roads as that is the limit of the state jurastiction of the UK.
> Also, I don't believe the uk can prosecute for driving offenses commited in other counties.
> Life in the old horse yet?


The bottom line is that an unmatriculated car is only legal on any road in Europe if its legal in its own country of registration! So if you can take that car back to the UK, drive it as it is right now without changing anything, then fine. Forget the Guardia and all that goes with it. If you have an accident and injure someone for whatever reason, will your insurance company look at the details and pay up? or will they wriggle out of it (and trust me, if they can find a way of not paying out they will), leaving you with a massive fine, penalties and a heavy conscience! Cos if they refuse to pay, you'll be done for driving without insurance!

We can dance around this on the forum til the cows come home. We're not the ones who you need to convince 

Jo xxx


----------



## sparkplug

jojo said:


> The bottom line is that an unmatriculated car is only legal on any road in Europe if its legal in its own country of registration! So if you can take that car back to the UK, drive it as it is right now without changing anything, then fine. Forget the Guardia and all that goes with it. If you have an accident and injure someone for whatever reason, will your insurance company look at the details and pay up? or will they wriggle out of it (and trust me, if they can find a way of not paying out they will), leaving you with a massive fine, penalties and a heavy conscience! Cos if they refuse to pay, you'll be done for driving without insurance!
> 
> We can dance around this on the forum til the cows come home. We're not the ones who you need to convince
> 
> Jo xxx


Thats the bottom line! If you have an accident and the insurance company refuse to pay on the grounds you are not correctly licenced by way of documents then you will be in deep DOODOO. Not least because you may have caused death or serious injury to someone else and they will not get the help they need off YOUR insurance because you dont have any!!!

If you drive in Spain or anywhere else for that matter without tax insurance and MOT then It will happen to someone eventually and then it will be a case of "told you so but you knew better"


----------



## rewdan

well I agree with mrypg9 on this, I have requsted confirmation from my broker in spain, will let you know what comes through.
In the meantime i'm flying to sierra nevada for a few days skiing and a few evenings of similar conversation as this (only over a few beers)
Hope to report back next week!


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> well I agree with mrypg9 on this, I have requsted confirmation from my broker in spain, will let you know what comes through.
> In the meantime i'm flying to sierra nevada for a few days skiing and a few evenings of similar conversation as this (only over a few beers)
> Hope to report back next week!



Make sure you get your broker to request confirmation from the insurance company in writing and yes, report back! 

jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

rewdan said:


> you take the vehicle abroad permanently
> Thats interesting... As I have taken it abroad permanently and a SORN in a legal requirement said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> "If you are taking your vehicle abroad temporarily, you must ensure that your vehicle is taxed for the whole duration you are away, as you can not make a SORN if your vehicle is outside the United Kingdom."
> 
> From When to make a SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) : Directgov - Motoring
> 
> As you have taken it abroad permanently then you should have informed the DVLA that it has been permanently exported. Then if you do you would have to re-reg. to Spanish plates otherwise it won't exist & your insurance will be void.
> At the end of the day it is the trafíco officer you have to convince; he doesn't have to prove that it is illegal, you have to prove that it is legal.
> 
> Just another point, have you actually told your insurer, who is accepting of a Spanish ITV , that the vehicle is registered as being 'permanently off road' in the UK? Because I can't for 1 min. believe that in the event of a major claim that any company would pay out,leaving you facing huge compensation claims.
Click to expand...


----------



## MaidenScotland

Why is it that the Spanish page always seems to be questions on how Brits can avoid doing something?
Your living in Spain.. do it properly.. register your car etc, after all do we not complain about the "foreigners" who have arrived in Britain and don't comply with the law?


----------



## gus-lopez

MaidenScotland said:


> Why is it that the Spanish page always seems to be questions on how Brits can avoid doing something?
> Your living in Spain.. do it properly.. register your car etc, after all do we not complain about the "foreigners" who have arrived in Britain and don't comply with the law?


Fully agree, plus he owns a holiday home in Spain. In the event of an accident were their is death or serious injury & the company says that they won't pay then the house will be gone, embargoed & sold to pay compensation. Is it worth it to save a few quid ? I don't think so.


----------



## rewdan

gus-lopez said:


> Fully agree, plus he owns a holiday home in Spain. In the event of an accident were their is death or serious injury & the company says that they won't pay then the house will be gone, embargoed & sold to pay compensation. Is it worth it to save a few quid ? I don't think so.


I think you are missunderstanding me, I am trying to do the legal thing within my boundaries and because the ITV option is easiest for me.

I am insuring my car at a cost of over 500 euros a year
I am only going to drive the car for 2 months of a year
I am going to get the ITV test on the car to ensure its road worthy as advised by my insurer. about 120 euros
As long as this all stands up legally I would rather do it all in Spain.

Alternativlely
I could drive the car back to the Uk, MOt it, tax it, insure it and the cost would not be greatly different to that in Spain, even including the most expensive part, an Ibiza to Barcelona ferry. My insurance in the UK for yearly europe cover is less than £250 because I am a law abiding good driving citizen. 

It is not about saving a few quid, not everyone is about that. It is whether I and the apparent 1000's of people in Marbella (with their big expensive cars) that are also missing tax discs are doing the right thing.

They do say the rich pay less tax because they know how the tax system works!

I am not convinced by any of the bottom lines presented, maybe the rich in their big cars just swallow the fines cos they can: I don't believe it for a moment, they don't want the hassle either. 

Has anyone some actual evidence of an untaxed UK car driver with insurance and ITV being prosecuted for no insurance? Probably not!

Does anyone know of an insurance claim under the same circumstances being refused, in Spain? Probably not!

Also, could we not contact Knight insurance so they can say something 'without prejudice' and put all our fears at rest. They have email, those with the power should invite them to comment.

Last of all, please remember that in my situation, it is not about saving a few quid, just about doing things right. And if I can do it on a SORN with Spanish ITV and UK based Spanish brokered insurance; and that is ok and legal, then thats how I want to do it.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> I think you are missunderstanding me, I am trying to do the legal thing within my boundaries and because the ITV option is easiest for me.
> 
> I am insuring my car at a cost of over 500 euros a year
> I am only going to drive the car for 2 months of a year
> I am going to get the ITV test on the car to ensure its road worthy as advised by my insurer. about 120 euros
> As long as this all stands up legally I would rather do it all in Spain.
> 
> Alternativlely
> I could drive the car back to the Uk, MOt it, tax it, insure it and the cost would not be greatly different to that in Spain, even including the most expensive part, an Ibiza to Barcelona ferry. My insurance in the UK for yearly europe cover is less than £250 because I am a law abiding good driving citizen.
> 
> It is not about saving a few quid, not everyone is about that. It is whether I and the apparent 1000's of people in Marbella (with their big expensive cars) that are also missing tax discs are doing the right thing.
> 
> They do say the rich pay less tax because they know how the tax system works!
> 
> I am not convinced by any of the bottom lines presented, maybe the rich in their big cars just swallow the fines cos they can: I don't believe it for a moment, they don't want the hassle either.
> 
> Has anyone some actual evidence of an untaxed UK car driver with insurance and ITV being prosecuted for no insurance? Probably not!
> 
> Does anyone know of an insurance claim under the same circumstances being refused, in Spain? Probably not!
> 
> Also, could we not contact Knight insurance so they can say something 'without prejudice' and put all our fears at rest. They have email, those with the power should invite them to comment.
> 
> Last of all, please remember that in my situation, it is not about saving a few quid, just about doing things right. And if I can do it on a SORN with Spanish ITV and UK based Spanish brokered insurance; and that is ok and legal, then thats how I want to do it.


Do what you like! If you wanted to do it the right way rather than save a few quid, you'd dump the UK car and get a Spanish one! You've asked the questions, you dont like the answers and are now trying to justify why you're not following the legal path. 

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

I agree, it is my first year of leaving the car there and I am now considering bring it back to the uk and buying a Spanish one. 
However, as it is my first year leaving the car there, I am trying to find out if I can get an ITV, insurance and be legal to drive.
There are a number of right ways to do things in many different situations, each to their own as long as it's one of the right ways.
I will do what I like and I will ensure it's legal, the answers given in the forum are opinions, they have no legal standing. The right way isn't necessarily your way and I will let you know my insurers response. 

I have no interest in saving a few quid over risking my liberty, the forum needs to forget the 'saving a few quid' mentality and look at the issue.


----------



## xabiaxica

read the whole thread already posted by someone else


----------



## VFR

rewdan said:


> I agree, it is my first year of leaving the car there and I am now considering bring it back to the uk and buying a Spanish one.
> However, as it is my first year leaving the car there, I am trying to find out if I can get an ITV, insurance and be legal to drive.
> There are a number of right ways to do things in many different situations, each to their own as long as it's one of the right ways.
> I will do what I like and I will ensure it's legal, the answers given in the forum are opinions, they have no legal standing. The right way isn't necessarily your way and I will let you know my insurers response.
> 
> I have no interest in saving a few quid over risking my liberty, the forum needs to forget the 'saving a few quid' mentality and look at the issue.


I like many others have looked at this issue & read countless threads/replies/factual links/goverment links for a good few years now, and one "fact" that is constant above anything else is ........

A vehicle "must" be legal in its "country of registration" !
So ask yourself the question ?


----------



## Stravinsky

rewdan said:


> I agree, it is my first year of leaving the car there and I am now considering bring it back to the uk and buying a Spanish one.
> However, as it is my first year leaving the car there, I am trying to find out if I can get an ITV, insurance and be legal to drive.
> There are a number of right ways to do things in many different situations, each to their own as long as it's one of the right ways.
> I will do what I like and I will ensure it's legal, the answers given in the forum are opinions, they have no legal standing. The right way isn't necessarily your way and I will let you know my insurers response.
> 
> I have no interest in saving a few quid over risking my liberty, the forum needs to forget the 'saving a few quid' mentality and look at the issue.


You ARE entitled to leave the UK reg car in Spain and only use it for two months a year, in fact up to 6 months a year as a non resident

The car DOES have to be legal in the country of registration, thats not hearsay or opinion. It's fact. Another poster I think mentioned a notice that was up in a local ITV station.

The forum doesn't have a "saving a few quid" mentality .. its some of the posters that do.

Enjoy your ski trip


----------



## gus-lopez

"Has anyone some actual evidence of an untaxed UK car driver with insurance and ITV being prosecuted for no insurance? Probably not!"

Yes. Brit. in Alicante , 2 yrs. ago, stopped @ roadside check, unfortunately he got the officer who spoke perfect english!
90e fine for no UK mot,
"why" he asked 
Reply "As you have an Itv sticker you know that you are req. to be road legal in country of reg."
90e fine no tax. "why" he asked 
Reply " The vehicle is req. to be legal in it's country of reg. "
600e fine , no ins. " what!, but you have the ins.documents & receipt in your hand"
"Yes I do but as the vehicle is not legal in it's country of registration then the ins. is not valid,but If you can produce a letter from your ins. co. that they are willing to cover this vehicle we will rescind the ticket for no ins." " Here also are the documents requiring you to re-register on to Spanish plates within 30 days."

He rang his insurer & explained the above only to be told "no don't be ridiculous, we insure UK reg. vehicles,that are permanently here in Spain,on the understanding that the vehicle can be legally driven IN THE UK." " It's all in the policy "

This was a man who'd thought he was legal & had been running it around for 10 yrs!
Plus he also got a ticket for 'incorrect licence', He had a UK plastic photo licence but NO medical cert. to go with it as req.for persons deemed resident.

What I can't understand is what you don't understand about SORN. It means Statutory OFF-ROAD notice. It means that the vehicle is PARKED off-road IN THE UK; nowhere else. IT can't be here in spain or anywhere else.

If you think your interpretation of Sorn is correct, ring them up & pose the question 'hypothetically'. 
Personally for a couple a months a year wouldn't it be better to pick up a cheap Spanish reg. car, there's plenty about @the mo.


----------



## rewdan

Let me start by saying that I have decided that this year I will bring the car back to the UK for an MOT and tax and then take it back to Spain.... however, I have recieved by 2 seperate emails, from two seperate employees of my insurance company that an ITV is sufficient to prove roadworthiness of my car for insurance purposes. I am unsure as to the legal standing of an email but it has all company details etc on it so I do not see why a judge would disregard it, also they took my money therefore they are bound to provide the product.

I have responded to one of the emails with the simple question, 'should I tax my car in the uk, I tax it whilst it's in the UK but what about while in Spain' I await their reply.

Now, get this bit...

I phoned the DVLA and spoke to Tom, I asked them what I should do as I am driving my car abroad and the tax would run out whilst I was there, however in a few months I would return the car to the UK and tax it before I returned. I explained that the car would be untaxed for a number of months and that I couldn't put it on a SORN as it was abroad. What should I do?

Tom explained that I should declare a SORN whilst it is untaxed. He went on that a SORN should not be declared when the car is out of the country if its out for more than 12 months, otherwise, as he put it, you could be declaring a SORN every year for the next 20 years.

I asked Tom if they recorded this call and also what his last name was in case I ever needed a copy for evidence, he told me they record some of the calls and his name was Tom of team 28. 

Whilst I wouldnt want the hassle with the Guardia, there is still argument. At the moment I will MOT and get 6 months tax for the summer but I feel I have my insurers and the DVLA on my side a bit!


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Let me start by saying that I have decided that this year I will bring the car back to the UK for an MOT and tax and then take it back to Spain.... however, I have recieved by 2 seperate emails, from two seperate employees of my insurance company that an ITV is sufficient to prove roadworthiness of my car for insurance purposes. I am unsure as to the legal standing of an email but it has all company details etc on it so I do not see why a judge would disregard it, also they took my money therefore they are bound to provide the product.
> 
> I have responded to one of the emails with the simple question, 'should I tax my car in the uk, I tax it whilst it's in the UK but what about while in Spain' I await their reply.
> 
> Now, get this bit...
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and spoke to Tom, I asked them what I should do as I am driving my car abroad and the tax would run out whilst I was there, however in a few months I would return the car to the UK and tax it before I returned. I explained that the car would be untaxed for a number of months and that I couldn't put it on a SORN as it was abroad. What should I do?
> 
> Tom explained that I should declare a SORN whilst it is untaxed. He went on that a SORN should not be declared when the car is out of the country if its out for more than 12 months, otherwise, as he put it, you could be declaring a SORN every year for the next 20 years.
> 
> I asked Tom if they recorded this call and also what his last name was in case I ever needed a copy for evidence, he told me they record some of the calls and his name was Tom of team 28.
> 
> Whilst I wouldnt want the hassle with the Guardia, there is still argument. At the moment I will MOT and get 6 months tax for the summer but I feel I have my insurers and the DVLA on my side a bit!


Its not what the DVLA say tho is it. Its what the guardia and the insurance assessor say at the scene of any potential accident and then what the judge says if it goes to court!

Interestingly I spoke to an insurance company about a British car and the girl told me they'd insure anything for as long as you like providing it has a valied MoT or a temporary ITV. When I asked her if the car would they pay out in the case of an accident, she said only if the car and the driver were considered legal in Spain according to the criteria and legislations of Spain at the time of the incident. 

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Tom 28 wants sacking. Here's what he should have told you.

Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)

"If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle.

If you don’t tax the vehicle and it’s brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away".

From here.Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring


----------



## VFR

rewdan said:


> Let me start by saying that I have decided that this year I will bring the car back to the UK for an MOT and tax and then take it back to Spain.... however, I have recieved by 2 seperate emails, from two seperate employees of my insurance company that an ITV is sufficient to prove roadworthiness of my car for insurance purposes. I am unsure as to the legal standing of an email but it has all company details etc on it so I do not see why a judge would disregard it, also they took my money therefore they are bound to provide the product.
> 
> I have responded to one of the emails with the simple question, 'should I tax my car in the uk, I tax it whilst it's in the UK but what about while in Spain' I await their reply.
> 
> Now, get this bit...
> 
> I phoned the DVLA and spoke to Tom, I asked them what I should do as I am driving my car abroad and the tax would run out whilst I was there, however in a few months I would return the car to the UK and tax it before I returned. I explained that the car would be untaxed for a number of months and that I couldn't put it on a SORN as it was abroad. What should I do?
> 
> Tom explained that I should declare a SORN whilst it is untaxed. He went on that a SORN should not be declared when the car is out of the country if its out for more than 12 months, otherwise, as he put it, you could be declaring a SORN every year for the next 20 years.
> 
> I asked Tom if they recorded this call and also what his last name was in case I ever needed a copy for evidence, he told me they record some of the calls and his name was Tom of team 28.
> 
> Whilst I wouldnt want the hassle with the Guardia, there is still argument. At the moment I will MOT and get 6 months tax for the summer but I feel I have my insurers and the DVLA on my side a bit!


You really need to look at this from another angle.

Your name is Pepe & you have a well connected/well financed family, and one day you make a mistake when you pull out of your local bar just after having a glass or 2 with your Guardia friends/extended family.
Bang! bleeding car knocks you straight across the road into an old boy minding his own business on his Vespino. **** I already have only 3 points left & now i'm looking at least a ban as you think to yourself and all & sundry gather.
Its a foreign car someone says (really?)
Josa step forward to take charge as its his patch & calls the ambulance to take the old boy to get his leg plastered up, who in turn is thinking that he will now not be able to attend to his olive groves for the next 5 years (if ever)
All looks ok Pepe (Josa says) as he has insurance etc, but of course he must have been speeding ?, still I will get the Jefe to double check in detail his documents/status etc etc.
Came from nowhere ! (says Mr Smith)
Are you on holiday Mr Smith ?
No I live here for the most part (says Mr Smith)
Oh you own a property ?
Yes nice place over in (says Mr Smith)
Do you normally speed in Spain, as I had just come out of the bar after using the toilet and happened to notice how fast you were going ?


Yes of course most of us have run UK plated vehicles over here for some period or other, but the game is up now so cover your ass and get it changed/buy a local vehicle....... just in case


----------



## rewdan

gus-lopez said:


> Tom 28 wants sacking. Here's what he should have told you.
> 
> Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)
> 
> "If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle.
> 
> If you don’t tax the vehicle and it’s brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away".
> 
> From here.Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring


As I am going to tax it etc I hope you guess that I am not trying to cut corners. Rather, I am debating.

I have confirmation that my insurance is valid by a uk company, if i have an ITV or MOT. They are the insurers and have confirmed that I am covered. They have not confirmed yet if I need a tax disc. It was a second question, asked later, I will let you know the answer. 

I also have an answer from the DVLA, albeit verbal. 

I can see gaps in the quoted literature in this thread. eg. There is no allowance for a uk car to go to france and sit in a garage fo 3 months untaxed, it could still be taxed before being drive back to the uk. 

There is also a second paragraph that talks about , 'if you don't tax your vehicle you must bring it back on a trailer', how is this possible?? its either on a SORN or taxed isn't it? why would they say this.

Another question..although I don't want to confuse the issue..
If I want to ship my recently slightly damaged road leagal racing car to my garage in Spain, carry out repairs at my leisure in my garage, with the intention of returning it to the UK. Does it need to be taxed and if not, how do you deal with it?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Another question..although I don't want to confuse the issue..
> If I want to ship my recently slightly damaged road leagal racing car to my garage in Spain, carry out repairs at my leisure in my garage, with the intention of returning it to the UK. Does it need to be taxed and if not, how do you deal with it?


Bring it over on a transporter and take it back the same way????????? That was the advise for my OHs classic "heap"!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## rewdan

jojo said:


> Bring it over on a transporter and take it back the same way????????? That was the advise for my OHs classic "heap"!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Its more about gaps in the published DVLA literature

Surely I can keep an untaxed uk reg vehicle in my garage in spain or anywhere else, however, there is no allowance for that in the arguments given. 

So how do I do it?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Its more about gaps in the published DVLA literature
> 
> Surely I can keep an untaxed uk reg vehicle in my garage in spain or anywhere else, however, there is no allowance for that in the arguments given.
> 
> So how do I do it?



Yes you can keep an untaxed uk vehicle in your garage in Spain or anywhere else! 

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> Yes you can keep an untaxed uk vehicle in your garage in Spain or anywhere else!
> 
> Jo xxx


but how?

the Dvla say I can't put it on a SORN because its not in the uk

what do I tell them?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> but how?
> 
> the Dvla say I can't put it on a SORN because its not in the uk
> 
> what do I tell them?


Thats why you need to transport it in a transporter - then it isnt on the road ANY ROAD - ITS OFF ROAD like the SORN says it is. Its in your own private garage in Spain and that is not a road!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## rewdan

jojo said:


> Thats why you need to transport it in a transporter - then it isnt on the road ANY ROAD - ITS OFF ROAD like the SORN says it is. Its in your own private garage in Spain and that is not a road!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


ok JoJo, I have a feeling you have been living in spain for a while, (and good for you by the way)

Back here in the uk you only have 2 choices, tax the car or SORN the car. If you don't do either the government will fine you immediately.

So what do I do with my UK car in my Spanish garage for a few months... its a hole in the DVLA literature. They have advised me to put it on a SORN. I do not think Tom28 deserves to be sacked, he is just trying to help. 

So, how do I tell the DVLA its off road in Spain.. there is no way according to the help sheets published on the internet by the DVLA.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> ok JoJo, I have a feeling you have been living in spain for a while, (and good for you by the way)
> 
> Back here in the uk you only have 2 choices, tax the car or SORN the car. If you don't do either the government will fine you immediately.
> 
> So what do I do with my UK car in my Spanish garage for a few months... its a hole in the DVLA literature. They have advised me to put it on a SORN. I do not think Tom28 deserves to be sacked, he is just trying to help.
> 
> So, how do I tell the DVLA its off road in Spain.. there is no way according to the help sheets published on the internet by the DVLA.


Once it has got a SORN - forget its a car - cos for intents and purposes it isnt, pretend that a SORN means that the wheels have been taken off the bloody thing! It cant go on a road - ANYWHERE The DVLA dont care where it is once it has a SORN as long as it isnt being driven - which would be impossible cos having a SORN has removed its wheels, OK?! LOL!. So you have to transport it in a lorry - you can take it to Spain in the lorry and put it in your Spanish garage. When/if you want to take it back to England, you can get the lorry to take it back to the UK - then you can either leave the SORN in place and not use it or you can tax it, MoT it and insure it! If you want to drive it back to England then as long as you have a valied MoT for it, you can tax (removing the SORN/putting the wheels back on!) and insure it for the journey back!

Or you could just sell all your RHD cars and buy a Spanish one!!!! :clap2::clap2:

I'm now going to have a lay down LOL!


Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> Once it has got a SORN - forget its a car - cos for intents and purposes it isnt, pretend that a SORN means that the wheels have been taken off the bloody thing! It cant go on a road - ANYWHERE The DVLA dont care where it is once it has a SORN as long as it isnt being driven - which would be impossible cos having a SORN has removed its wheels, OK?! LOL!. So you have to transport it in a lorry - you can take it to Spain in the lorry and put it in your Spanish garage. When/if you want to take it back to England, you can get the lorry to take it back to the UK - then you can either leave the SORN in place and not use it or you can tax it, MoT it and insure it! If you want to drive it back to England then as long as you have a valied MoT for it, you can tax (removing the SORN/putting the wheels back on!) and insure it for the journey back!
> 
> Or you could just sell all your RHD cars and buy a Spanish one!!!! :clap2::clap2:
> 
> I'm now going to have a lay down LOL!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't blame you for taking a siesta!

Meanwhile..... apparently a SORN is only valid if the car is in the UK, so what is the status of an untaxed uk reg car in a garage in spain?


----------



## SteveHall

Just to go off at a complete tangent, a gestor friend sent this yesterday:

If you are one of the unlucky one's and lose or have stolen you car documentation, then BEWARE yet more new rules have been issued! last year you could just walk into an itv station and order a duplicate copy of your itv document, then wait a few day's and go and pay your 15 to 20 euro's fee, NOW you have to actually take the vehicle in along with the police report, that you have had your paper's either stolen or lost! and have a brand new itv test! at a cost of 56 euro for petrol and 65 euro's for diesel. i am in the process of obtaining three duplicates for a cliente and the first vehicle has just failed! and yet it only had it's yearly itv in january. ALSO if you have a right hand drive car on spanish plates, you should check your itv document, it should have printed on the bottom section in spanish that the vehicle is right hand drive. IF NOT get ready for a journey to alicante or where it was originally itv'd as spanish, because they will not itv it

PLEASE NOTE - this applies to Alicante province and COULD be a local CV law but ......

Anybody got FACTS on other areas, please?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> I don't blame you for taking a siesta!
> 
> Meanwhile..... apparently a SORN is only valid if the car is in the UK, so what is the status of an untaxed uk reg car in a garage in spain?



Yes the SORN is only for the UK, but a car must be legal from its country of origin wherever it is! If it has a SORN in the UK then it cant be driven in the UK - but that means its not legal to drive it anywhere. Thats not to say you cant get it matriculated and converted when/if it comes to Spain

Use the "SORN is the same as No wheels" analogy

Jo xxxx


----------



## RachNurse

Need a brick wall Jo? I like banging my head off them sometimes lmao xx


----------



## jojo

oobielala said:


> Need a brick wall Jo? I like banging my head off them sometimes lmao xx


Nurses are patient souls dont ya think ( I was a nurse in my previous life)????!! LOL 

Jo xxxx


----------



## gus-lopez

SteveHall said:


> Just to go off at a complete tangent, a gestor friend sent this yesterday:
> 
> If you are one of the unlucky one's and lose or have stolen you car documentation, then BEWARE yet more new rules have been issued! last year you could just walk into an itv station and order a duplicate copy of your itv document, then wait a few day's and go and pay your 15 to 20 euro's fee, NOW you have to actually take the vehicle in along with the police report, that you have had your paper's either stolen or lost! and have a brand new itv test! at a cost of 56 euro for petrol and 65 euro's for diesel. i am in the process of obtaining three duplicates for a cliente and the first vehicle has just failed! and yet it only had it's yearly itv in january. ALSO if you have a right hand drive car on spanish plates, you should check your itv document, it should have printed on the bottom section in spanish that the vehicle is right hand drive. IF NOT get ready for a journey to alicante or where it was originally itv'd as spanish, because they will not itv it
> 
> PLEASE NOTE - this applies to Alicante province and COULD be a local CV law but ......
> 
> Anybody got FACTS on other areas, please?


No, haven't actually heard that one yet , although I wouldn't be surprised as the shortfall in gov. revenue they are trying to make up in any way they can. Re; the rhd part , yes I always check that everything is on their but it makes me wonder about these rhd vans I 've seen on Spanish plates. Did it just get overlooked or did they have a 'friend' doing the paperwork ? 
I've found on a couple of occasions that cars put through for re-reg. in one of the Alicante itv stations often have things missing on the documents, my own re-reg. German car included. At least i knew in advance of it's itv 2 weeks ago that I probably had a problem & was prepared. Forewarned is forearmed! Down here they are more interested in the paperwork being correct than the vehicle being roadworthy!  With mine, by the time we sorted out the legality of the EC homologation paperwork I didn't even get a 'smoke test' ,although a reading appeared on the docs.


rewdan, myself as a self-confesed petrol head,I would tax the road legal car as when I had finished repairing it I would want to drive it.


----------



## RachNurse

jojo said:


> Nurses are patient souls dont ya think ( I was a nurse in my previous life)????!! LOL
> 
> Jo xxxx


Oh yes very very patient..... I was so glad to escape the asylum this morning..... and I work in gastroenterolgy not crazy elf!


----------



## jojo

Before I go and comfort eat a huge bar of chocolate. I'll just re-iterate the bit that I do know about cars in Spain. This is not the full story, just the bit I know is right

SORN - Statutory Off Road Notice. It means the car doesnt have to have road tax cos its not being used on the public highway - for whatever reason!! The idea is that you either pay road tax or have a SORN - one or the other or the DVLA - Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency find you and shoot you!!! Seriously, if you havent got a SORN, you MUST pay your car tax ! 

If you visit Spain in your car, it MUST be legal to drive on the roads where it is registered! If it isnt, then your insurance isnt valid and therefore you are not legal!

None of what I've written here is particularly aimed at those who come with their UK cars to reside in Spain. If thats what you are doing then you should get your car matriculated in the correct fashion here in Spain for it to remain here legally. Or sell your British vehicle and buy one here

Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky

Re the comments earlier, one has to remember that if you take a car from the UK permanently then you have to register it as permanently exported using the part of your log book to do this ... so the sorn would not be an issue


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> Before I go and comfort eat a huge bar of chocolate. I'll just re-iterate the bit that I do know about cars in Spain. This is not the full story, just the bit I know is right
> 
> SORN - Statutory Off Road Notice. It means the car doesnt have to have road tax cos its not being used on the public highway - for whatever reason!! The idea is that you either pay road tax or have a SORN - one or the other or the DVLA - Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency find you and shoot you!!! Seriously, if you havent got a SORN, you MUST pay your car tax !
> 
> If you visit Spain in your car, it MUST be legal to drive on the roads where it is registered! If it isnt, then your insurance isnt valid and therefore you are not legal!
> 
> None of what I've written here is particularly aimed at those who come with their UK cars to reside in Spain. If thats what you are doing then you should get your car matriculated in the correct fashion here in Spain for it to remain here legally. Or sell your British vehicle and buy one here
> 
> Jo xxx


Pasted from the DVLA Website(http://tinyurl.com/32wq9y):
_Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)

If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle.

If you don’t tax the vehicle and it’s brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away.

You can tax or SORN online or by telephone, but please note that SORN can’t be made while the vehicle is abroad.

If you don’t have a registration certificate and you are taking the vehicle out the country on a temporary basis you can get a replacement from DVLA by phoning or applying by post._


----------



## mrypg9

Rofa said:


> *Pasted from the DVLA Website*(Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring
> _Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)
> 
> If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. *Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle*.
> 
> Thankyou for posting a link which no-one can disagree with - the horse's mouth, so to speak.
> It should now be made clear to all that tax comes *AFTER *insurance and is *NOT *a prerequisite..You have to take your insurance and MOT to get your Road Tax. If you nhave no Road Tax you are fined for just that, not having a Road Tax. I know as mine ran out when I was away once. You are NOT fined for not having insurance.....because you have insurance cover regardless of possession of current Road Tax.
> No-one is disputing -or should be disputing-that your car should have valid tax and MOT, wherever you are driving it..
> And no-one is disputing that if you are a resident you should not drive a UK plated car.
> Those who wish to believe that if you drive a UK plated car as a resident your insurance will be invalid are free to go on so thinking.
> My insurer, my Gestor and now from the DVLA website tell differently and I know whose judgment I will follow.
> Incidentally, none of these documents guarantees roadworthiness. I would like to see a regular service and inspection schedule more rigorous and frequent than the MOT as a requirement for insurance. Six-monthly or a set number of miles.
> There are cars on the road in the UK and here with valid MOTs but which are in no way roadworthy._


----------



## mrypg9

_*With the introduction of Continuous Registration (CR) and Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN), the law now states that vehicle owners can no longer ignore Licence Renewal Reminders. You must either re-licence your vehicle or notify DVA that you have disposed of the vehicle. If you are taking the vehicle off the road then you must declare SORN.

It is now possible to re-licence some vehicles by telephoning DVA directly, if you can say yes to the following: 

My vehicle is currently insured 
I have a Debit card, for example Switch or Delta, (Not a credit card or Electron card) 
Please Note: DVA has access to an insurance database where 90% of all insurance details are held. With your permission we will access this database to confirm your insurance details. About 10% of insurance records are not on the database so there is a small chance that we will not be able to renew your disc by telephone. 
FROM DVLA*_


So.....if you are correct in saying you are not insured unless you have Road Tax....if that were indeed so,how could you then get insurance without a Road Tax? 
To repeat: of course you should tax and MOT your car. But if you have been naughty and have not taxed your car, it is simply wrong to say you have no insurance as is abundantly clear from the DVLA website.
It is important as people may be unneccessarily worried that the thousands of drivers of these UK plated cars who (unlike me) have not taxed their vehicles are uninsured and there will therefore be no redress if they cause an accident. They may well be fined by DVLA if they return to the UK -as they should -but they are insured for third party cover.
I'm still waiting to hear opinions as to whether drivers of Spanish cars with no current SUMA are uninsured. (They are).
This 'they have no insurance' myth is on a par with other gems of wisdom I've read on various forums such as : it is illegal to watch Sky tv in Spain and the Guardia will fine you. I was even told by one little twerp that he would 'report me to Sky'
Another myth: you cannot insure a UK plated car in Europe for more than a certain number of months (some 'experts' say 3, others 6). Untrue. There are a few UK companies who will provide 365 day insurance cover and I am happy to have helped people who required this service by pointing them in the right direction.


----------



## mrypg9

MaidenScotland said:


> Why is it that the Spanish page always seems to be questions on how Brits can avoid doing something?
> Your living in Spain.. do it properly.. register your car etc, after all do we not complain about the "foreigners" who have arrived in Britain and don't comply with the law?


 No-one who has posted on this topic is trying to 'avoid' anything. I'm certainly not. I have tax and MOT on my UK car as I have said many times before.What I am trying to do is to ascertain fact and not myth or supposition or simply incorrect interpretation.


----------



## gus-lopez

Here's more conflicting info; No: 3,

There are three prerequisites for acquiring car insurance :

* First and foremost, the car must be registered. It is illegal to drive a car that has not been registered with the DVLA which makes it a prerequisite of car insurance also.
* Secondly, it is obligatory on the policyholder to keep the insured car roadworthy. In the UK, this means producing an MOT certificate when applying for or renewing your insurance policy. MOT is required on a car that is over 3 years old.
* Thirdly, road tax on any insured car must be up-to-date. Insurance companies will not issue insurance without proof of payment of the road tax.

From here: Legal Requirements of Car Insurance UK

You need an ins. cert. to obtain road tax, but you need a tax disc to obtain ins. I think it's a gov. ploy that you can't obtain either , then they can fine you large sums to help reduce the debt mountain.  

mrypg9, sorry had to work this week so haven't had a chance to get in to my ins. broker to ask the question.


----------



## jojo

AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Thats better

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!
> 
> Thats better
> 
> Jo xxx


Tranquilo, tranquilo, nurses don't panic. Just thought I'd flog the old :deadhorse: a bit , see whether there's any life!!


----------



## rewdan

so there is life in that old horse...
Nobody has yet acknowledged my point.

A SORN can only be declared on a car whilst it is in the UK.

Acording to Jo, a UK car can be kept in a garage in Spain untaxed ( and not driven).'Wheels off'.

There is no way to declare to the DVLA that your car is off the road whilst its in Spain (for less than the 12 month export required period).

So how do I keep my untaxed car off the road for a few months, whilst in Spain, without breaking the law?

Also, I disagree that you need tax to obtain insurance, certainly not in the UK.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> A SORN can only be declared on a car whilst it is in the UK.
> 
> Acording to Jo, a UK car can be kept in a garage in Spain untaxed ( and not driven).'Wheels off'.
> 
> There is no way to declare to the DVLA that your car is off the road whilst its in Spain (for less than the 12 month export required period).
> 
> So how do I keep my untaxed car off the road for a few months, whilst in Spain, without breaking the law?


You declare it off road (SORN) BEFORE you take it to Spain and use a transporter - a lorry that will take it - cos it doesnt have any bloody wheels!!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

Rofa said:


> Pasted from the DVLA Website(Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring
> _Taking your vehicle abroad for less than 12 months (temporary export)
> 
> If a UK registered vehicle is taken abroad temporarily, it remains subject to UK law. This means that you as the keeper, must by law make sure that the vehicle stays taxed while it’s overseas. Providing the vehicle has a current MOT certificate and insurance, you’ll be able to tax the vehicle.
> 
> If you don’t tax the vehicle and it’s brought back to the UK untaxed, the vehicle will need to be transported and not driven upon entry back to the UK and SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification) should be declared straight away.
> 
> You can tax or SORN online or by telephone, but please note that SORN can’t be made while the vehicle is abroad.
> 
> If you don’t have a registration certificate and you are taking the vehicle out the country on a temporary basis you can get a replacement from DVLA by phoning or applying by post._


Just reading back over the thread again, the bit I don't get is here... The paragrapgh starting 'If you don't tax the vehicle....'

The DVLA are contradicting themselves with the previous paragragh, if I must tax my vehicle whilst it is abroad then how can they go on to state ' if you don't tax your vehicle..'. Surely this is impossible, either I have to tax it or not.

Just to be safe and avoid pointless comments, I would tax the vehicle to drive it back to the UK.


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> You declare it off road (SORN) BEFORE you take it to Spain and use a transporter - a lorry that will take it - cos it doesnt have any bloody wheels!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry Jo, it doesn't work that way,
a SORN is only available to cars in the UK so that the DVLA can by appointment, visit your car and check its off road. They probably never do but that is the purpose of the SORN.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Sorry Jo, it doesn't work that way,
> a SORN is only available to cars in the UK so that the DVLA can by appointment, visit your car and check its off road. They probably never do but that is the purpose of the SORN.


If its not in the country, technically it doesnt need road tax, because the tax you are paying is to allow you to use british roads. So if they want to check that its off the road and the SORN is in place correctly on the car, you would have kept all the paperwork and transit documents from your shipment to Spain wouldnt you!!!! Or the DVLA could send one very lucky member of their team to Spain to check that it is indeed in your garage without its wheels!!!!!!

The rest of their statements are correct. I think the paragraph you are referring to is assuming that you would be driving your vehicle abroad, but whilst there your tax runs out - therefore it cannot be driven and must be given a SORN until you can get it MoTd and taxed!!?

Jo xxxx


----------



## gus-lopez

rewdan said:


> Just reading back over the thread again, the bit I don't get is here... The paragrapgh starting 'If you don't tax the vehicle....'
> 
> The DVLA are contradicting themselves with the previous paragragh, if I must tax my vehicle whilst it is abroad then how can they go on to state ' if you don't tax your vehicle..'. Surely this is impossible, either I have to tax it or not.
> 
> Just to be safe and avoid pointless comments, I would tax the vehicle to drive it back to the UK.


Basically the vehicle must be taxed to cover the whole period it's abroad but if something unexpected happens, i.e. your knocked down & don't wake up for 3 months & the tax & mot has run out, rendering you unable to re-tax it, then it would have to be transported back to the UK & the next paragraph would apply. Declare SORN, then mot then re-tax.


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> If its not in the country, technically it doesnt need road tax, because the tax you are paying is to allow you to use british roads. So if they want to check that its off the road and the SORN is in place correctly on the car, you would have kept all the paperwork and transit documents from your shipment to Spain wouldnt you!!!! Or the DVLA could send one very lucky member of their team to Spain to check that it is indeed in your garage without its wheels!!!!!!
> 
> The rest of their statements are correct. I think the paragraph you are referring to is assuming that you would be driving your vehicle abroad, but whilst there your tax runs out - therefore it cannot be driven and must be given a SORN until you can get it MoTd and taxed!!?
> 
> Jo xxxx


This horse is definately gaining a heartbeat!

You are right about the juristiction limits of the tax. They are UK only. But how are you sure that technically it doesn't need road tax? I think you are moving over to my side of the debate! The dark side!

Meanwhile... the DVLA only publish that a Sorn is only valid in the UK. I think this is a guideline as the road traffic acts go back over 100 years, they need to keep it simple in their guidelines.

They would be more than welcome to visit my house in Spain to inspect the vechicle off road, its wheels would be on. 

I have no reason to keep paperwork from shipping, I drove the car out there fully uk legal, I can drive it back fully uk legal. The tax may run out while I am there but the MOT/insurance can still be current and valid.

I could also put the car on my own trailer and tow it back. There is no need to prove movements of the car to either customs, DVLA or anyone else. Borderless Europe!

On your last bit, thats exactly it... my tax run out while I am there, I cannot declare a SORN because the car is out of the UK and the uk juristiction for car tax is within the UK borders, to drive on UK roads. Not French/Spanish/any roads. I have no way within the guidelines given by the DVLA to put my car in a Spanish garage and leave it there whilst I return to the UK and get the tax.


----------



## jojo

To drive a car legally it must be considered legal in its country of registration - that means road tax!

If your tax runs out while you are there, you mustnt drive it, but must take out a SORN when it arrives on UK soil!

Or you can, as alot of Brits do, risk the consequences!? 

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

gus-lopez said:


> Basically the vehicle must be taxed to cover the whole period it's abroad but if something unexpected happens, i.e. your knocked down & don't wake up for 3 months & the tax & mot has run out, rendering you unable to re-tax it, then it would have to be transported back to the UK & the next paragraph would apply. Declare SORN, then mot then re-tax.


Please focus on this bit

My tax has run out whilst in Spain.
My MOT and insurance are still valid for another 11 months.

I could potentially go into a coma for 10 months, come out of it, fly back to the UK and buy some tax, back to Spain , drive the car back to the UK legally.

The car has been untaxed for 10 months, I would face a fine in the uk as I cannot declare a SORN whilst the car is in Spain


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Please focus on this bit
> 
> My tax has run out whilst in Spain.
> My MOT and insurance are still valid for another 11 months.
> 
> I could potentially go into a coma for 10 months, come out of it, fly back to the UK and buy some tax, back to Spain , drive the car back to the UK legally.
> 
> The car has been untaxed for 10 months, I would face a fine in the uk as I cannot declare a SORN whilst the car is in Spain



You can get tax or a SORN on the computer and someone could probably do that for you if you're in a coma!! There is no excuse. It all seems very clear to me and thats unusual for me! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> You can get tax or a SORN on the computer and someone could probably do that for you if you're in a coma!! There is no excuse. It all seems very clear to me and thats unusual for me!
> 
> Jo xxx


It is all terribly clear and there are no ambiguities as far as I can see on the DVLA site and it's even written in simple language and with no spelling mistakes ( I haven't been able to spell since the advent of spellcheckers). Phrases that have been used like (to misquote 'cos I can't be bothered to go back) "I think the DVLA mean this or that" are unhelpful as are links to insurance web sites written in ambiguous language. 

I thought I would just add the following from Wikipedia for completeness:
In the UK road tax is commonly used as a shorthand term for vehicle excise duty. This is the sum paid to the government for a vehicle licence, which must be displayed on most motor vehicles used on public roads.

The tax is commonly believed to fund road projects, but it is contributed to central government revenues; construction and maintenance of highways are paid for from general taxation.[1] The misunderstanding dates back to the time when the proceeds of the tax were used for the Road Fund, which was instituted in 1910. This hypothecation ceased in 1936, when Winston Churchill decided that the proceeds of the tax would go into central funds, and that the Road Fund would receive grants from there.


----------



## jojo

Rofa said:


> It is all terribly clear and there are no ambiguities as far as I can see on the DVLA site and it's even written in simple language and with no spelling mistakes ( I haven't been able to spell since the advent of spellcheckers). Phrases that have been used like (to misquote 'cos I can't be bothered to go back) "I think the DVLA mean this or that" are unhelpful as are links to insurance web sites written in ambiguous language.
> 
> I thought I would just add the following from Wikipedia for completeness:
> In the UK road tax is commonly used as a shorthand term for vehicle excise duty. This is the sum paid to the government for a vehicle licence, which must be displayed on most motor vehicles used on public roads.
> 
> The tax is commonly believed to fund road projects, but it is contributed to central government revenues; construction and maintenance of highways are paid for from general taxation.[1] The misunderstanding dates back to the time when the proceeds of the tax were used for the Road Fund, which was instituted in 1910. This hypothecation ceased in 1936, when Winston Churchill decided that the proceeds of the tax would go into central funds, and that the Road Fund would receive grants from there.



and wasnt the SORN brought in fairly recently to stop people claiming that their cars were off the road so hadnt got tax, when in fact they werent!!?? It enabled the DVLA to have a cross reference

Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

jojo said:


> and wasnt the SORN brought in fairly recently to stop people claiming that their cars were off the road so hadnt got tax, when in fact they werent!!?? It enabled the DVLA to have a cross reference
> 
> Jo xxx


No - SORN has been around for quite some time - but the procedure has been tightened up - again it's all on the DVLA web site. Really for those looking for loopholes or dreaming up obscure situations, then for the former there are none to the best of my knowledge, and for the latter then there are certainly situations where for one reason or another it is not possible to stay within the law - at least easily or without considerable expense - tough - you just have to pay the fine if you are caught - argue it out with the magistrate or judge by all means - and let us know the result of course


----------



## jojo

Rofa said:


> Really for those looking for loopholes or dreaming up obscure situations, then for the former there are none to the best of my knowledge, and for the latter then there are certainly situations where for one reason or another it is not possible to stay within the law - at least easily or without considerable expense - tough - you just have to pay the fine if you are caught - argue it out with the magistrate or judge by all means - and let us know the result of course


Well put!!! If people are looking for loopholes then they shouldnt be. You cant in the UK, so you cant here! Rules and regulations, whether you like them or not are what keep countries safe and nice places to be. So you should abide by them and not think that you're above them!

Jo xxx


----------



## Rofa

And there is of course this which will give some food for thought perhaps:
http://tinyurl.com/ya8ry3b

Owning a lane: is actually much less trouble free


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## mrypg9

(5) A condition in a policy or security issued or given for the purposes of this Part of this Act providing— 
(a) that no liability shall arise under the policy or security, or 
(b) that any liability so arising shall cease, 
in the event of some specified thing being done or omitted to be done after the happening of the event giving rise to a claim under the policy or security, shall be of no effect in connection with such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy under section 145 of this Act.
*(6) Nothing in subsection (5) above shall be taken to render void any provision in a policy or security requiring the person insured or secured to pay to the insurer or the giver of the security any sums which the latter may have become liable to pay under the policy or security and which have been applied to the satisfaction of the claims of third parties. 
(7) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment, a person issuing a policy of insurance under section 145 of this Act shall be liable to indemnify the persons or classes of persons specified in the policy in respect of any liability which the policy purports to cover in the case of those persons or classes of persons. *

Road Traffic Act 1988, Section 6, para 148.


I was pointed to this by a lawyer friend and it makes clear that an insurer is obliged to provide third-party cover to idemnify claims against a driver with no


----------



## mrypg9

My laptop is playing up so am continuing from previous post....

Road Tax. The insurer could sue in a Civil Court if the car were unroadworthy and a serious claim was involved. They would never take such action if lack of Road Tax was the only factor.
Each claim is unique so what happened to Mavis may not happen to Bert. 
The test for insurance cover is 'roadworthiness' which is of course why assessors inspect all vehicles involved in large claims.
Possession of a current MOT is not in law proof of roadworthiness at the time of the accident which led to the claim so a vehicle with a curent MOT can still be classed as 'unroadworthy'..
Insurance will be invalid if you are currently disqualified from driving and should therefore not be on a public highway under any circumstances. There is a Government-administered fund which compensates victims of such cases.
My 100 % legal Spanish LR is going in for dent knocking out on Monday so if some emergency occurs I shall drive my UK legal car in the knowledge that I am contravening a Spanish law. I shall hold my hands up if apprehended and I would bet a large sum of money that nothing would happen apart from a friendly warning.
After talking with the Gestor it would seem that converting the car to Spanish plates would be too costly so it will be sold here or perhaps in the UK before tax and MOT run out.
So we'll be looking for a car....anyone with a BMW, Mercedes, Audi or Saab cabrio they want to sell? Must be on Spanish plates, though.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> ! Rules and regulations, whether you like them or not are what keep countries safe and nice places to be. So you should abide by them and not think that you're above them!
> 
> Jo xxx


That is very true. But it is also true that there must be no ambiguity as to what those rules and regulations are. We can't go by what we_* think, *_it's *what the law actually says *that is important.
Another useful paragraph to be read in conjunction with the Road Traffic Act 1988 which is the law which covers these matters:

*Restrictions 
Your car insurer cannot restrict your cover based on the following

your age, physical or mental condition 
the condition of the vehicle 
the number of people that the vehicle carries 
the weight or physical characteristics of the goods that the vehicle carries 
the time at which, or the areas within which, the vehicle is used 
the horsepower or cylinder capacity or value of the vehicle 
the carrying on the vehicle of any particular apparatus 


There are exceptions. The insurer is not required to pay out if the following conditions apply/applied:

The insurer was not informed within seven days of the accident 
The blame or responsibility of the accident has not yet been established 
You failed to disclose, or misrepresented, certain facts which would have altered your policy .*

The 'certain facts' are conditions imposed by your insurance company who in turn must abide by the requirements of the RTA, i.e. they are required to provide third-party cover under the provisions of that Act.. 
'Certain facts' would cover serious matters such as the driver being disqualified or knowingly driving an unroadworthy vehicle.

I really don't know what more could be adduced to prove that no Road Tax does not equal no insurance.


----------



## gus-lopez

"After talking with the Gestor it would seem that converting the car to Spanish plates would be too costly so it will be sold here"

Just to let you know that under Spanish law that's illegal as well! 
No foreign registered vehicle can be sold, exchanged, part-exchanged or gifted away. Although no one appears to take any notice or ,in some cases even know that the law exists!

Another one , just to wet your appetite is " Any foreign vehicle on Spanish territory must be legal in the country where it is registered, if owned by a tourist. If owned by a resident it must be re-registered onto Spanish matriculación within 30 days.The vehicle, or any foreign vehicle, cannot be scrapped in Spain it must be returned to the country of registration for disposal. Vehicles involved in accidents are the responsibility of the insurer to comply with Spanish legislation."

Another one that not a lot of places take any notice of, except here where I live. The 2 big vehicle dismantlers will not take an Uk reg. vehicle fullstop. It took me 12 mths. to find a place to get rid of mine a few years ago.


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> You can get tax or a SORN on the computer and someone could probably do that for you if you're in a coma!! There is no excuse. It all seems very clear to me and thats unusual for me!
> 
> Jo xxx


My point is that you cannot apply for a SORN if your car is not in the UK. Mine would be in my garage in Spain whilst I was in my coma. Nobody could apply for a SORN on my behalf as the car is in Spain. 

I also agree that having no tax would not invalidate your insurance. I have asked my insurer to confirm this and will report back.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> My point is that you cannot apply for a SORN if your car is not in the UK. Mine would be in my garage in Spain whilst I was in my coma. Nobody could apply for a SORN on my behalf as the car is in Spain.
> 
> I also agree that having no tax would not invalidate your insurance. I have asked my insurer to confirm this and will report back.



You can apply if you're taking it back to the UK. You must stop looking for loopholes. There are none!


Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> You can apply if you're taking it back to the UK. You must stop looking for loopholes. There are none!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry, where does it say that I can declare a SORN if I intend to return the car to the UK? I must have missed that bit.

I am not looking for loopholes, during my time on this thread, my car has returned from Spain and passed its MOT. I shall be putting 6 months tax on it on Monday, enough for the summer and returning it to Spain shortly. In 6 months time I will garage it and probably do the same all over again next year. I hope you agree, not a loophole in sight.
I am just looking for correct answers rather than pub style opinion.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Sorry, where does it say that I can declare a SORN if I intend to return the car to the UK? I must have missed that bit.
> 
> I am not looking for loopholes, during my time on this thread, my car has returned from Spain and passed its MOT. I shall be putting 6 months tax on it on Monday, enough for the summer and returning it to Spain shortly. In 6 months time I will garage it and probably do the same all over again next year. I hope you agree, not a loophole in sight.
> I am just looking for correct answers rather than pub style opinion.


Of course you are! If you want correct answers then ask the correct authorities. Have this conversation with the DVLA!. We are an informal forum and try to help as best we can, so you're gonna get "pub style" answers!!!

Jo x


----------



## rewdan

jojo said:


> Of course you are! If you want correct answers then ask the correct authorities, we are an informal forum, and you're gonna get "pub style" answers!!!
> 
> Jo x



Thank goodness for that, I can happily dismiss many of the previous comments that sounded so factual but are only guesswork! 

How about your bit about being able to declare a SORN if you intend to return the car to the UK, is that only your opinion or does it have any factual base??


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Thank goodness for that, I can happily dismiss many of the previous comments that sounded so factual but are only guesswork!
> 
> How about your bit about being able to declare a SORN if you intend to return the car to the UK, is that only your opinion or does it have any factual base??



I may be blonde but I'm not stupid. So my opinions are based on the facts which are there in black and white! those of us who are not looking for loopholes or trying to squirm out of doing what is right can see that! 

The people on this thread were trying to help you, not have a battle with you! The facts are the facts, if you cant understand them, then try contacting the DVLA and either argue it out with them or ask them to re word their information to make it easier for you to understand

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

sorry Jo, I never meant to offend.


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> sorry Jo, I never meant to offend.


I'll let you off :tongue1:

Jo xxx


----------



## JimmyTait

18 pages, 18 long and painful pages! Why did this thread go on for so long, I could have spent the evening doing something else other than reading this... but at least I now know that when I come to Spain in September I will:-
1/. have my RHD UK registered car road taxed/MOTd and unsured for the 6 months of driving so it is UK legal while in Spain
2/. During the 6 months, save up and have the car ITV (?)/Matriculated to Spanish plates.
3/. inform DVLA that the car is now permanantly exported (claim back any road tax outstanding)
4/. obtain Spanish insurance for myself and OH

Does that about cover all my needs?


----------



## jojo

JimmyTait said:


> 18 pages, 18 long and painful pages! Why did this thread go on for so long, I could have spent the evening doing something else other than reading this... but at least I now know that when I come to Spain in September I will:-
> 1/. have my RHD UK registered car road taxed/MOTd and unsured for the 6 months of driving so it is UK legal while in Spain
> 2/. During the 6 months, save up and have the car ITV (?)/Matriculated to Spanish plates.
> 3/. inform DVLA that the car is now permanantly exported (claim back any road tax outstanding)
> 4/. obtain Spanish insurance for myself and OH
> 
> Does that about cover all my needs?


Yes, but we had fun discussing it LOL What we need to do is have a spring clean and tidy up some our posts! But, you know what its like .....

I think you've pretty much summed it up, however, if you are a spanish resident you need to start the matriculation process within the first 3 months I believe. 


Jo xxx


----------



## JimmyTait

No problem, I wont be a resident as I will not be in the country more than 183 days, I work overseas a lot. OH will be resident but we are not married. I will need to get an nie though.
I am so happy I pushed it over into 19 pages ;-)


----------



## jojo

JimmyTait said:


> No problem, I wont be a resident as I will not be in the country more than 183 days, I work overseas a lot. OH will be resident but we are not married. I will need to get an nie though.
> I am so happy I pushed it over into 19 pages ;-)



Congratulations :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:

Jo xxx


----------



## JimmyTait

Congrats on not being married, working overseas or reaching page 19? All of the above I think.
Can't wait for the move!!!

Great forum btw.


----------



## jojo

JimmyTait said:


> Congrats on not being married, working overseas or reaching page 19? All of the above I think.
> Can't wait for the move!!!
> 
> Great forum btw.


Yes all of that!! Glad you like the forum, we try to be as helpful as we can, but obviously we're no substitute for the official sites and information! But we all come from a wide variety of backgrounds and all have our experiences and knowledge which we pass on. I hope you enjoy living in Spain, I love it. Where abouts are you moving to?

Jo xxx


----------



## JimmyTait

Anywhere between Estepona and Gib. Probably La linea to atart with. My OH is desperately trying to get a job with RBS as they currently work for them in Edinburgh but so far missed out on he first job after being shortlisted and awaiting news of next one.
We had wanted to start in Estepona but until we get settled and move up to two cars the commute would be too much. Read some negative stuff about La Linea but I guess all big towns will have trouble somewhere... and it is quite an eyesore of a place. Santa Margarita looks not too bad though. Still searching for the right area...


----------



## jojo

JimmyTait said:


> Anywhere between Estepona and Gib. Probably La linea to atart with. My OH is desperately trying to get a job with RBS as they currently work for them in Edinburgh but so far missed out on he first job after being shortlisted and awaiting news of next one.
> We had wanted to start in Estepona but until we get settled and move up to two cars the commute would be too much. Read some negative stuff about La Linea but I guess all big towns will have trouble somewhere... and it is quite an eyesore of a place. Santa Margarita looks not too bad though. Still searching for the right area...


La Linea isnt a particularly pretty town, but it is the obvious commuter town into Gib! I'm sure that when you're behind your gates/front door and sitting on your terrace in the sunshine sipping cocktails, you wont care where you are! and if you have a car then you're not stuck there. Its a foothold and a starting base, and once you get a feel for Spain, you can decide where you want to be and move! 

Hey, we're messing up the car thread even more now by chatting!!! EEEKK, and I'm supposed to be in charge and keeping this place tidy!!!! LOL!!!

Nice chatting tho. Feel free to ask anything, theres usually someone around who will know the answer, it may take 12 pages, but we'll get there - but start a new thread lol

Jo xxx


----------



## JimmyTait

I think it was about time the thread was hijacked  Will start a thread when i ahve read all the stuff I am using the search function for. I hate it when folk kick off a subject that has been done to death already. La Linea was a dump in October 2009 when we drove around it. Still, there are lovely areas nearby.
Catch you later
J


----------



## gus-lopez

Hi rewdan, I e-mailed the dvla with your query re; leaving the car in Spain & bringing it back to mot it & they replied with the following.


"It appears that the vehicle will be taken to Spain and only brought back to the UK to obtain an MOT. Your acquaintance is not able to keep the vehicle registered in the UK under these circumstances if it is being kept abroad."

The following information will be useful to your acquaintance.

"It may be helpful if I explain that, if you are taking your vehicle out of the country on a permanent basis (over 12 months) you must notify us immediately of the vehicle's intended export."

I then asked the question regarding what the situation was if the vehicle was taken out of the UK whilst remaining taxed & mot'd ( being brought back to be mot'd ) if the owner still had a UK residence. In addition I asked what was the situation re: motorhomes that stay out of the country for over 12 mths. only returning for mot's. Here is the reply.

" I can confirm that all vehicles, if taken outside the UK for more than 12 months, should be notified as exported, regardless of whether the keeper still has a UK address."

"This would include motorhomes."

"It is also important that keepers contact the licensing authorities of the country their vehicles are being used in, to establish their requirements."

If anyone wants the complete e-mails, pm me with your e-mail address.

I have asked where you would register your motorhome if you were permanently touring & await there reply.

So it would seem that if it's abroad over 12 mths. it must be exported.


----------



## Tallulah

gus-lopez said:


> Hi rewdan, I e-mailed the dvla with your query re; leaving the car in Spain & bringing it back to mot it & they replied with the following.
> 
> 
> "It appears that the vehicle will be taken to Spain and only brought back to the UK to obtain an MOT. Your acquaintance is not able to keep the vehicle registered in the UK under these circumstances if it is being kept abroad."
> 
> The following information will be useful to your acquaintance.
> 
> "It may be helpful if I explain that, if you are taking your vehicle out of the country on a permanent basis (over 12 months) you must notify us immediately of the vehicle's intended export."
> 
> I then asked the question regarding what the situation was if the vehicle was taken out of the UK whilst remaining taxed & mot'd ( being brought back to be mot'd ) if the owner still had a UK residence. In addition I asked what was the situation re: motorhomes that stay out of the country for over 12 mths. only returning for mot's. Here is the reply.
> 
> " I can confirm that all vehicles, if taken outside the UK for more than 12 months, should be notified as exported, regardless of whether the keeper still has a UK address."
> 
> "This would include motorhomes."
> 
> "It is also important that keepers contact the licensing authorities of the country their vehicles are being used in, to establish their requirements."
> 
> If anyone wants the complete e-mails, pm me with your e-mail address.
> 
> I have asked where you would register your motorhome if you were permanently touring & await there reply.
> 
> So it would seem that if it's abroad over 12 mths. it must be exported.


Goodness, Gus-Lopez - you've gone to an awful lot of trouble there and thank you very much for the clarifications.:clap2: I'm sure it will be appreciated.


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Goodness, Gus-Lopez - you've gone to an awful lot of trouble there and thank you very much for the clarifications.:clap2: I'm sure it will be appreciated.



Yes, good on ya Gus - altho part of me would have liked this thread to just vanish LOL 

Jo xxxx


----------



## Rofa

Ah well - why shouldn't I help add another page - needs reading carefully I suppose but it's pretty well all there - not sure if the Directive has been implemented yet:

Tax-free allowances: permanent or temporary importation of private motor vehicles


----------



## Stravinsky

gus-lopez said:


> Hi rewdan, I e-mailed the dvla with your query re; leaving the car in Spain & bringing it back to mot it & they replied with the following.
> 
> 
> "It appears that the vehicle will be taken to Spain and only brought back to the UK to obtain an MOT. Your acquaintance is not able to keep the vehicle registered in the UK under these circumstances if it is being kept abroad."
> 
> The following information will be useful to your acquaintance.
> 
> "It may be helpful if I explain that, if you are taking your vehicle out of the country on a permanent basis (over 12 months) you must notify us immediately of the vehicle's intended export."
> 
> I then asked the question regarding what the situation was if the vehicle was taken out of the UK whilst remaining taxed & mot'd ( being brought back to be mot'd ) if the owner still had a UK residence. In addition I asked what was the situation re: motorhomes that stay out of the country for over 12 mths. only returning for mot's. Here is the reply.
> 
> " I can confirm that all vehicles, if taken outside the UK for more than 12 months, should be notified as exported, regardless of whether the keeper still has a UK address."
> 
> "This would include motorhomes."
> 
> "It is also important that keepers contact the licensing authorities of the country their vehicles are being used in, to establish their requirements."
> 
> If anyone wants the complete e-mails, pm me with your e-mail address.
> 
> I have asked where you would register your motorhome if you were permanently touring & await there reply.
> 
> So it would seem that if it's abroad over 12 mths. it must be exported.


Which is what I have said in the past I believe 
Well done for getting it from the DVLA


----------



## gus-lopez

Further to my post# 189 re ; asking the question about where you would register a motorhome , I have had a reply as follows;

Dear Mr Lopez

For us to deal with your enquiry correctly and fully we will need to pass your email to a specialist department for further investigation.
DVLA will send a full reply within 10 working days. If it is going to take longer to provide you with a reply, we will let you know.

Personally, I think they have backed themselves into a corner here as I know people who no longer have a house in the UK,only have a taxed,tested,insured motorhome, registered in the UK that only returns for Mot's. At one point, years ago we did; before all this nonsense started.
I'm looking forward to the reply from the "specialist dept".


----------



## rewdan

Sorry for my absence, been living on a farm in wales all week whilst my son gets over chickenpox! no internet in the valleys!
Anyway, I expect my car will probably be in Spain for 6-9 months a year only, so I am still unsure where I stand. Do the DVLA mean that the 12 month period is during the lifetime of the car or in a single uninterupted run?
I am very interested in what the specialist dept will have to say, my money is on it being inconclusive! I wait to see.

This is a great thread, may it run and run and run!


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> Sorry for my absence, been living on a farm in wales all week whilst my son gets over chickenpox! no internet in the valleys!
> Anyway, I expect my car will probably be in Spain for 6-9 months a year only, so I am still unsure where I stand. Do the DVLA mean that the 12 month period is during the lifetime of the car or in a single uninterupted run?
> I am very interested in what the specialist dept will have to say, my money is on it being inconclusive! I wait to see.
> 
> This is a great thread, may it run and run and run!



The specialist department is dealing with the mobile home situation. I think you should get in touch with the DVLA and they'll explain it to you. Or just buy a Spanish car

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Actually jojo, the motorhome situation , to me , is the same as the car as the DVLA said on there reply "motorhomes are the same". rewdan I don't think it will be inconclusive,I reckon they'll come up with some jobsworth reply like " you can't own a vehicle if you don't live anywhere". lol.


----------



## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> Actually jojo, the motorhome situation , to me , is the same as the car as the DVLA said on there reply "motorhomes are the same". rewdan I don't think it will be inconclusive,I reckon they'll come up with some jobsworth reply like " you can't own a vehicle if you don't live anywhere". lol.


But surely wherever you live you have to have a postal addess, in fact dont you have to have your current and correct address on your drivers licence?? Where would they send your fines??? 

Jo xxx


----------



## rewdan

It is the same to me, I just wasn't brave enough to say it..car or motorhome, it amounts to the same thing, and in my case they have a uk address to send fines too.
To me the question here still comes down to weather it's more than 12 months in one go.. impossible if the car returns to the uk for an mot every year... or if it's 12 months in the whole life of the car.

I think it can only be more than 12 months in one go, this is probably why the person that emailed you could not commit and has refered the matter to a 'specialist department'.
In all honesty, I don't think they have an answer as it may not be an issue. 
If the car is returned within a 12 month period, then it hasn't been exported, has it ??


----------



## gus-lopez

Well, they do have an answer & a good one that affects everbody running around in a foreign reg. vehicle.

Dear Mr Lopez

Thank you for your email received on 11/3/10. Your email reference number is 278553.

"European Union (EU) vehicles which are circulating temporarily within or between community Member States are allowed under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a twelve-month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country".

"We cannot comment on the registration and licensing requirements of other licensing authorities. You will need to check the domestic requirements with each individual authority".

I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.

The EC directive is here http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/com_en.pdf & Section III, B1b1, is the one that applies. This is the reason that they state that a vehicle can only be used in the country as a tourist /everyday work for a max. of 6 mths otherwise you will be classed as a resident. The vehicle has to be taken out of the country, You'll note the line "must comply with the registration & licensing requirements of its home country."

Jojo, yes the people I know use a sons house for registration etc, but they won't be too affected by this as they are not normally in one Ec country for 6 mths., but they are out of the UK for more. 

Rewdan ,yes, it does apply to both cars & motorhomes as in The UK they are both driven on a car licence & classed as PLG.


----------



## KRM

Hi

Can anyone help me I had a row with a lorry on the way over from UK I lost! I need a rear passenger offside door for Ford Mondeo 5 door Hatch 1996. Does anyone know of Vehicle breakers Orihuela area costa Blanca

Fingers Crossed


----------



## rewdan

had a couple of glasses of wine now so I will take a look at the directive later, but it looks like we are cracking it which is great!

I know I haven't looked at the directive yet but what about the time I could spend 4 months in spain and 4 months in france, then 4 months in the UK, is there a provision for that?

I could carry 12 months tax etc but am I now illegal?


----------



## jojo

rewdan said:


> had a couple of glasses of wine now so I will take a look at the directive later, but it looks like we are cracking it which is great!
> 
> I know I haven't looked at the directive yet but what about the time I could spend 4 months in spain and 4 months in france, then 4 months in the UK, is there a provision for that?
> 
> I could carry 12 months tax etc but am I now illegal?


Why dont you just ask the DVLA

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

If you pay the road tax for the year , then unless you are being regularly stopped no ones going to know as it's legal. You'd just have to prove ,on the side of the road, that you haven't ben in the country for more than 6 mths.I read it as out of the country for no more than 6 mths.


----------



## rewdan

jo I have asked the DVLA, see my earlier posts, however, Lopez is onto something here and it needs to be looked into. Its great to banter about what we think we know but we are finally getting some direction towards EU law. I look forward to reading it in the morning.


----------



## rewdan

sorry for the delay in getting back, I am now in Ibiza and while driving my Uk car today, got to meet the Guardia. I am rubbish at Spanish and his English was non existent. Anyway, he wanted to know if I lived and worked here, which I don't, he was quite happy with that, didn't look at my shiney new tax disc or ask for any documents, I had them all. I did catch him saying something about 6 months but am unsure if he was talking about me or the car!
I know this doesn't help the thread but am sure you will all be glad to hear I was ok!


----------



## mrypg9

This is getting more attention than it deserves. Having insurance and a roadworthy car is the most important issue. The most likely thing that will happen if you are found to be driving illegally as a resident is a warning. Even in the most extreme case you will not have to undergo the tortures of the Spanish Inquisition.
When I was stopped in my UK plated car a year ago I wasn't asked about how long I'd been here etc. I was just told I'd parked in the wrong place and not to do it again. Didn't even have to produce insurance, driving licence etc. The car was taxed, no MOT as it was new but NO questions asked about my status.
If the police decide to purge UK plated vehicles it would make sense to start with all those with LHD as it's obvious that these are residents' vehicles. Then in ten years' time when they've finished doing that they'll start on RHD cars.
That's when they've processed all the paperwork, of course - oh as well as dealing with ETA terrorism, organised crime, prostitution, drugs, the rising incidence of burglaries, car theft, mayhem caused by drunken Brits etc. etc. etc. etc.
My 100% legal LR Disco with me as legal driver stayed longer than expected in the garage for body work repairs this week so I (illegal, resident) drove my taxed, insured, MOT'ed UK plated car to the supermarket to fetch goods that were too bulky to convey home on my bicycle. I twice passed police road blocks who waved me on. I was told they were looking for suspicious people linked with the recent spate of burglaries round here. I would have been a greater danger to other road users wobbling about on my bike than in my well-maintained car.
The bottom line is this: none of us here on this forum are experts on this or come to that any other legal matter, as far as I know. We are all capable of reading and the internet will give you all the relevant information, if you know where to look.. We have to go by the law and then in cases such as mine use our judgment. We can also take the opinion of people who work in the field - lawyers, people in the insurance business, motor trade etc. My prime concerns are and always have been ithird party insurance and roadworthiness.
I am insured on the few occasions when I do drive my UK car but I am aware that I am breaking the Spanish law. If I am apprehended and punished I have no one to blame but myself. 
I now have my trusty LR back and this afternoon my UK BMW is off to be inspected with a view to purchase by another UK resident.
If he buys it and drives it he will be committing an illegal act. I await incarceration for aiding and abetting.
Incidentally, did anyone find out about whether you are uninsured if your Spanish car has no current vehicle tax? My Spanish lawyer stated without hesitation that the answer is in the affirmative, just as in the UK. It is vehicles that are insured, not individual drivers, as can be seen by reading my insurance policy which allows me and any driver between the ages of thirty and seventy of sound mind and good health to drive my cars.


----------



## baldilocks

This entire thread seems to be oriented around "what can I get away with?"

Hold on, how can we expect the Spanish to take us seriously an welcome us as part of their country if this is our attitude? 

We have still to get away from the poor reputation we have got here in some places that we have acquired because of the cheats, crooks, scoundrels, skivers, etc. who did us no good service by their attitudes an activities in the past.

GET LEGAL and stay legal!


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> This entire thread seems to be oriented around "what can I get away with?"
> 
> Hold on, how can we expect the Spanish to take us seriously an welcome us as part of their country if this is our attitude?
> 
> We have still to get away from the poor reputation we have got here in some places that we have acquired because of the cheats, crooks, scoundrels, skivers, etc. who did us no good service by their attitudes an activities in the past.
> 
> GET LEGAL and stay legal!


oh well said! Thank you!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky

baldilocks said:


> This entire thread seems to be oriented around "what can I get away with?"
> 
> Hold on, how can we expect the Spanish to take us seriously an welcome us as part of their country if this is our attitude?
> 
> We have still to get away from the poor reputation we have got here in some places that we have acquired because of the cheats, crooks, scoundrels, skivers, etc. who did us no good service by their attitudes an activities in the past.
> 
> GET LEGAL and stay legal!



I wont bother to comment really BL although you are right.

I know what the law is. Ive taken advice over 5 years or so from professionals and government departments. I hear so much crap from Expats here who think they know what they are doing is right because they manage to get away with it, and decide that what I have ascertained from the legal people is wrong.

So as far as I am concened I have made the law clear. Certain people here have gone on another forum and tried the same line as here and been slated because they ARE wrong.

So good luck to them .... but please dont be fooled. There are people who have had their illegal cars here taken off them, so if you want to risk just a warning as has been said then good luck to you .... just make sure you have a good solicitor


----------



## morlandg

*PC*



SteveHall said:


> Just thinking about this again - why would you want to drive any car in Spain?
> 
> Just some general observations about driving in Spain:
> 
> Parking ON roundabouts is obligatory. If you will be more than 30 mins then putting your blinkers on covers all known sins.
> 
> Parking on zebra crossings is, in fact, highly recommended especially if you can double-park at the same time. If the crossing is also near a crossroads that's great and it's even better if it is by traffic lights. That way you can annoy the most people in the least time. This leads them to think that the "slightly" dangerous manoeuvre they took at the last roundabout was in fact OK.
> 
> If you overtake on the inside you have every right to abuse the guy who nearly knocked you off as he was turning right. This is particularly relevant if you are 2-up on a scooter etc and neither of you are wearing helmets.
> 
> Although to others it might seem dangerous it is actually OK to speed up any dual carriageway 2-abreast on your motos. Talking to each other is equally totally fine especially if you are both also on your mobile phones at the same time.
> 
> If you are drop dead-gorgeous, with a figure to die for wearing a sprayed on T-shirt and a visible thong, please be assured that this is NOT distracting to other drivers. Men would not notice and women would not scream at their husbands "keep your eyes on the road and keep your eyes off that tart. She is young enough to be your granddaughter."
> 
> "It is perfectly acceptable to be travelling at 60kmh on a toll road weaving from lane to lane whilst you text your mistress to tell her you're on your way there whilst talking to your wife on the other phone complaining that your xxxx boss has sent you to Madrid again"
> 
> The other section that is overlooked is the "It is compulsory to double or even triple park on zebra crossing - particularly the ones on busy x-roads. If you think you will be there for more than 15 minutes then put your blinkers on but if you are only going to queue in the bank, correos or whatever just wind the windows down and tell your 6 year old passenger to tell anybody that you'll be back soon." They will understand as they do the same themselves. If you completely block the road doing this it does not matter as you only stop people going to work and they hate the job anyway, so they should be grateful."


Excellent article Steve - all perfectly correct of course.
And don't forget when you park - try and park at an angle so that you take up two parking spaces.
Graham


----------



## Pesky Wesky

SteveHall said:


> Just thinking about this again - why would you want to drive any car in Spain?
> 
> Just some general observations about driving in Spain:
> 
> Parking ON roundabouts is obligatory. If you will be more than 30 mins then putting your blinkers on covers all known sins.
> 
> Parking on zebra crossings is, in fact, highly recommended especially if you can double-park at the same time. If the crossing is also near a crossroads that's great and it's even better if it is by traffic lights. That way you can annoy the most people in the least time. This leads them to think that the "slightly" dangerous manoeuvre they took at the last roundabout was in fact OK.
> 
> If you overtake on the inside you have every right to abuse the guy who nearly knocked you off as he was turning right. This is particularly relevant if you are 2-up on a scooter etc and neither of you are wearing helmets.
> 
> Although to others it might seem dangerous it is actually OK to speed up any dual carriageway 2-abreast on your motos. Talking to each other is equally totally fine especially if you are both also on your mobile phones at the same time.
> 
> If you are drop dead-gorgeous, with a figure to die for wearing a sprayed on T-shirt and a visible thong, please be assured that this is NOT distracting to other drivers. Men would not notice and women would not scream at their husbands "keep your eyes on the road and keep your eyes off that tart. She is young enough to be your granddaughter."
> 
> "It is perfectly acceptable to be travelling at 60kmh on a toll road weaving from lane to lane whilst you text your mistress to tell her you're on your way there whilst talking to your wife on the other phone complaining that your xxxx boss has sent you to Madrid again"
> 
> The other section that is overlooked is the "It is compulsory to double or even triple park on zebra crossing - particularly the ones on busy x-roads. If you think you will be there for more than 15 minutes then put your blinkers on but if you are only going to queue in the bank, correos or whatever just wind the windows down and tell your 6 year old passenger to tell anybody that you'll be back soon." They will understand as they do the same themselves. If you completely block the road doing this it does not matter as you only stop people going to work and they hate the job anyway, so they should be grateful."


Would just like to add, please don't indicate; you might be giving away top secret information like which direction you're going to be taking!!


----------



## baldilocks

You omitted the obligatory parking on the apex of a corner to make it difficult for others to get round. It is even better if this is on a bus route or outside the Guardia Civil.

If you happen to see a group of Spaniards standing by a British car that is obstructing traffic/pedestrians/crossings or footpaths it is quite OK to walk past, throw your arms in the arms, shake your head and shout "Los Ingleses!" then kick the tyres. Just don't let them catch you, actually getting into it and driving away, it spoils the effect.


----------



## shoemanpete

Thanks a lot everybody for giving us the confidence to come to Spain with our car in 3 weeks time!
I just hope all of this is well and truly exaggerated as it was when everyone slated Portuguese driving to us. I did not find P'g drivers bad at all other than they drive too close behind you.

Just tell me this is all a wind-up?


----------



## Guest

It is not a wind up, it has a good basis on truth. I was told the spanish are taught to drive with totally different attitude to UK. I have seen most of the things described. I was also told the Portugese were awful drivers and did have the misfortune to witness some of it. They are very agressive fast drivers, a taxi driver once bragged they had had a good night ONLY 200 dead on the roads the night before


----------



## kboy

*british cars and woodburning stoves in spain*

Have just bought a house in Baza, Granada. Spent a month driving around in old beat up Mercedes van on British plate with no problems from police at all. In fact, broke down on the way there and Guardia Civil Trafico arrived... spent about an hour and a half with us... nicest policemen we've ever met!! Very helpful and sociable. Couldn't have been better!!

Left my old van there and am back in UK now.

Does anyone know where in southern Spain I can get a double sided woodburning stove (one that opens either side into two different rooms). If not, does anyone know of good shipping rates, or regular trips between UK and southern Spain, so I can ship one over there from UK....

Any help or information appreciated.

Cheers, Kev


----------



## Stravinsky

kboy said:


> Have just bought a house in Baza, Granada. Spent a month driving around in old beat up Mercedes van on British plate with no problems from police at all. In fact, broke down on the way there and Guardia Civil Trafico arrived... spent about an hour and a half with us... nicest policemen we've ever met!! Very helpful and sociable. Couldn't have been better!!
> 
> Left my old van there and am back in UK now.
> 
> Does anyone know where in southern Spain I can get a double sided woodburning stove (one that opens either side into two different rooms). If not, does anyone know of good shipping rates, or regular trips between UK and southern Spain, so I can ship one over there from UK....
> 
> Any help or information appreciated.
> 
> Cheers, Kev


Why would you expect to have a problem driving around in a van in spain for a month? 

Can you start a new thread for your woodburner rather than take this off topic please


----------



## kboy

*driving in spain in old van*



Stravinsky said:


> Why would you expect to have a problem driving around in a van in spain for a month?
> 
> Sorry. I was just responding to someone who had said that if you were driving older British vehicles the police were coming down a bit hard... stopping and checking often... but realised after that it was posted some time ago.... just related my recent experience...


----------



## nelsonRFC82

Is there the same 'attention' on Gib registered cars being driven in Spain. Bit shocked at the value for money of 2nd hand car in Spain so looking at alternatives. Thinking if purchase in Gib could continue to get MOT etc as I work there anyway and thereore maintain legality of the car?


----------



## Stravinsky

nelsonRFC82 said:


> Is there the same 'attention' on Gib registered cars being driven in Spain. Bit shocked at the value for money of 2nd hand car in Spain so looking at alternatives. Thinking if purchase in Gib could continue to get MOT etc as I work there anyway and thereore maintain legality of the car?


Are you a Spanish resident?

If so, the answer quite frankly is that you cannot drive a foreign registered car in Spain. You are therefore not maintaining the legality of the car.

If you are stopped, it's not down to the Guardia to prove anything ..... it's down to you to prove that you are not a resident, or that you have only just purchased the car and are going to matriculate.


----------



## Grasparossa

So what to do? 
I have a UK car and am moving to Spain. Is it not worth bringing the car?
What are the rules? Are you allowed to drive it for a limited time or are you only supposed to drive it if you are on holiday? How much does it cost to register your UK car in spain?


----------



## Stravinsky

Grasparossa said:


> So what to do?
> I have a UK car and am moving to Spain. Is it not worth bringing the car?
> What are the rules? Are you allowed to drive it for a limited time or are you only supposed to drive it if you are on holiday? How much does it cost to register your UK car in spain?


We bought our car, but only because it was "cherished". We then bought a Spanish car also.

Matriculation will cost you (roughly) between €600 & €1000 depending on the gestor or specialist you use.

You are supposed to start matriculation within 60 days of moving to Spain to reside. Certainly you want to get it going immediately you take residency because in that way you avoid the import registration fee (or import tax, as it really is).

So most probably it's a better option to buy one here, although second hand cars are more expensive here. However if the car is a special car, or quite new it may be better to matriculate rather than lose money selling it.

Choice is yours really


----------



## nelsonRFC82

Stravinsky, thanks for the advice. Yeah I actually thought that after I posted to be honest!


----------



## JoCatalunya

We were stopped shortly after arriving here (7 years back) in our English reg car and told back then if we planned to stay here, (which we did) we had to get it either re-registered or get a Spanish car. We decided on the latter as it was far easier in the long run.


----------



## mrypg9

JoCatalunya said:


> We were stopped shortly after arriving here (7 years back) in our English reg car and told back then if we planned to stay here, (which we did) we had to get it either re-registered or get a Spanish car. We decided on the latter as it was far easier in the long run.


I am constantly amazed at the huge number of LHD and RHD UK plated cars running around in the Msrbella - Estepona area.
I know of people who have driven such cars for up to twenty years - hopefully they get regular inspection and maintenance.
We sold our RHD UK car when the MOT ran out to a woman who said she'd put it on Spanish plates...that was last year and it's still as we sold it!
What is the advantage of buying a LHD car on UK plates??? Surely it's obvious you are resident in Spain if you have LHD??


----------



## xicoalc

Going slightly off subject but talking of "being stopped". My car is spanish reg, but last night I was stopped by a national police road block, (with guns). She pulled me over and looked in my back seat, looke at my and my OH and asked me what was in my boot (estate car so big boot). I replied nothing and she said "oh ok, continue then"!

No ask to see docs, nothing... I was expecting the usual "papers, marticulation etc" and going by the fact she was looking at the back seat I thought I would be in for boot being opened up and searched but no! Makes you think though.. if ever you do want to smuggle a load of drugs, or an illegal imigrant, put it in the boot and jsut remember to say "the boot is empty" when they stop you and everything will be tickety boo!


----------



## baldilocks

steve_in_spain said:


> Going slightly off subject but talking of "being stopped". My car is spanish reg, but last night I was stopped by a national police road block, (with guns). She pulled me over and looked in my back seat, looke at my and my OH and asked me what was in my boot (estate car so big boot). I replied nothing and she said "oh ok, continue then"!
> 
> No ask to see docs, nothing... makes me think though.. if ever i do want to smuggle a load of drugs, or an illegal imigrant, put it in the boot and jsut remember to say "the boot is empty" when they stop you and everything will be tickety boo!


Alternatively they might have been potential thieves and not actually police and thought you weren't worth robbing.

A point that I have made before - if you are stopped by the Guardia Civil check the number plate of their vehicle - if it isn't PGC before the digits - they are fake! PGC stands for Policia Guardia Civil


----------



## xicoalc

baldilocks said:


> Alternatively they might have been potential thieves and not actually police and thought you weren't worth robbing.
> 
> A point that I have made before - if you are stopped by the Guardia Civil check the number plate of their vehicle - if it isn't PGC before the digits - they are fake! PGC stands for Policia Guardia Civil


Yes a very valid point... you hear of it a lot. These were deinately police... 3 police cars, uniform, guns, and very prominently on a main road (and quite often are) so it was genuine but people shoudl be warey!


----------



## mrypg9

steve_in_spain said:


> Going slightly off subject but talking of "being stopped". My car is spanish reg, but last night I was stopped by a national police road block, (with guns). She pulled me over and looked in my back seat, looke at my and my OH and asked me what was in my boot (estate car so big boot). I replied nothing and she said "oh ok, continue then"!
> 
> No ask to see docs, nothing... I was expecting the usual "papers, marticulation etc" and going by the fact she was looking at the back seat I thought I would be in for boot being opened up and searched but no! Makes you think though.. if ever you do want to smuggle a load of drugs, or an illegal imigrant, put it in the boot and jsut remember to say "the boot is empty" when they stop you and everything will be tickety boo!




Ohy wow Steve...angry woman with gun:


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Ohy wow Steve...angry woman with gun:


I know! I felt most uncomfortable! Actually, in fairness to the Spanish police, she was very polite and nice... no attitude like you often get from the bobbies in the UK when they do random stops. Just if I had been carrying something naughty she was hardly thorough... having said that... it was probably my sweet angelic baby face that made her realise im harmless!!!

Mary mary, we have an El Court Ingles 15 minutes from my new house... IT´S AMAZING! Time to explore the coffee machines me thinks!


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## Stravinsky

steve_in_spain said:


> I know! I felt most uncomfortable! Actually, in fairness to the Spanish police, she was very polite and nice... no attitude like you often get from the bobbies in the UK when they do random stops. Just if I had been carrying something naughty she was hardly thorough... having said that... it was probably my sweet angelic baby face that made her realise im harmless!!!
> 
> Mary mary, we have an El Court Ingles 15 minutes from my new house... IT´S AMAZING! Time to explore the coffee machines me thinks!


I think they cast an eye over you and take a view.
I was stopped once and he asked to see my licence. As it happens it was in my golf bag in the back of the car. When I told him he just waved me on.


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## yerpal

*ooooooh*

Thanks for the heads up. I will certainly mention that to my friend here who is still on GB plates years after moving although he seems to know most of the local police here by now.


Slightly ironic however that after deleting most of my posts for making jokes or daring to ask if there are other forums such as this, giving school like warnings and telling me to read heaps of rules yet you take the hump when the police stop you and ask for documents. Says sit all really doesn't it

I expect my next official warning within the next five minutes lol:boxing:








jojo said:


> I was with a friend this morning, helping him move. We were in his british registered RHD car/4x4/heap lol!!, The Guardia were doing road checks and we were stopped and a lot of questions were asked as to why we were in a non matriculated vehicle, how long had the owner been here, how long was he staying...... Heck, I was just the passenger and they wanted to see my drivers licence, they even wanted to know my parents names !!???!!!
> 
> Anyway, I was chatting to some friends later and apparently theres a big push at the mo to catch and prosecute anyone who is driving a British car who shouldnt be. So be warned!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


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## Seb*

yerpal said:


> Slightly ironic however that after deleting most of my posts for making jokes or daring to ask if there are other forums such as this, giving school like warnings and telling me to read heaps of rules yet you take the hump when the police stop you and ask for documents. Says sit all really doesn't it
> 
> I expect my next official warning within the next five minutes lol:boxing:


How wonderfull would be the world without rules. NOT.

If you are a guest at someone's house and he asks you not to smoke, you complain about that too?


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## jojo

yerpal said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I will certainly mention that to my friend here who is still on GB plates years after moving although he seems to know most of the local police here by now.
> 
> 
> Slightly ironic however that after deleting most of my posts for making jokes or daring to ask if there are other forums such as this, giving school like warnings and telling me to read heaps of rules yet you take the hump when the police stop you and ask for documents. Says sit all really doesn't it
> 
> I expect my next official warning within the next five minutes lol:boxing:


As my mum used to say "if you dont like my gate, dont swing on it" The police do their job, you do yours and we do ours! The easiest way to get on with life is simply to do things right and be pleasant to everyone  BTW, I didnt take the hump as you put it, I was merely pointing out that the guardia are/were clamping down on British cars - and a good job too. If these stupid people crash their car, they'll not only lose a lot of money and get no financial help if they are injured, but they'd be prosecuted and jailed

Jo xxxx


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## MaidenScotland

yerpal said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I will certainly mention that to my friend here who is still on GB plates years after moving although he seems to know most of the local police here by now.
> 
> 
> Slightly ironic however that after deleting most of my posts for making jokes or daring to ask if there are other forums such as this, giving school like warnings and telling me to read heaps of rules yet you take the hump when the police stop you and ask for documents. Says sit all really doesn't it
> 
> I expect my next official warning within the next five minutes lol:boxing:




I am to please... commenting on moderating on the open forum is against the rules


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## xicoalc

I still maintain that if anyone comes to live in Spain they shoudl abide by the rules. If you spend 6 months here and decide to stay then marticulate your car. Why should people get away with not doing it. Good on the Guardia for clamping down... I paid a fortune to bring my car, and why shouldnt everyone else.

No tax, no MOT, and invalid insurance are just some of the associated problems that so many Brits cause by driving illegally and it is about time the police cracked down on it.

All to often Brits comment on people coming to the UK and now they should abide by our rules, but as a race we are (and i dont mean the majority, jsut an overwhelming minority!!) arrogant and feel that the rules should not apply to us.

Of course, play the game, time it right with residency, padron etc and import tax free where possible (that´s your right to do so as an EU citizen) but why do so many drive for years then complain about the Spanish system when they get pulled, fined, or their cars taken away.

Rant over!


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## jojo

steve_in_spain said:


> I still maintain that if anyone comes to live in Spain they shoudl abide by the rules. If you spend 6 months here and decide to stay then marticulate your car. Why should people get away with not doing it. Good on the Guardia for clamping down... I paid a fortune to bring my car, and why shouldnt everyone else.
> 
> No tax, no MOT, and invalid insurance are just some of the associated problems that so many Brits cause by driving illegally and it is about time the police cracked down on it.
> 
> All to often Brits comment on people coming to the UK and now they should abide by our rules, but as a race we are (and i dont mean the majority, jsut an overwhelming minority!!) arrogant and feel that the rules should not apply to us.
> 
> Of course, play the game, time it right with residency, padron etc and import tax free where possible (that´s your right to do so as an EU citizen) but why do so many drive for years then complain about the Spanish system when they get pulled, fined, or their cars taken away.
> 
> Rant over!


Well said!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks

steve_in_spain said:


> I still maintain that if anyone comes to live in Spain they shoudl abide by the rules. If you spend 6 months here and decide to stay then marticulate your car. Why should people get away with not doing it. Good on the Guardia for clamping down... I paid a fortune to bring my car, and why shouldnt everyone else.
> 
> No tax, no MOT, and invalid insurance are just some of the associated problems that so many Brits cause by driving illegally and it is about time the police cracked down on it.
> 
> All to often Brits comment on people coming to the UK and now they should abide by our rules, but as a race we are (and i dont mean the majority, jsut an overwhelming minority!!) arrogant and feel that the rules should not apply to us.
> 
> Of course, play the game, time it right with residency, padron etc and import tax free where possible (that´s your right to do so as an EU citizen) but why do so many drive for years then complain about the Spanish system when they get pulled, fined, or their cars taken away.
> 
> Rant over!


I agree wholeheartedly - you want to live here then live by the rules just as you expect(ed) those who immigrated into your country !


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## thrax

We see a lot of UK plated cars here and curiously most of them still sport a hugely out of date road tax. We have bought a Spanish car since arriving here but still have our UK car as well although we don't drive it anymore (waiting to get it matriculated before venturing out in it again.) It used to be that you were allowed to drive your UK plated car for 6 months legally before having to get it matriculated; is that still the rule? We were told it was but tbh I have no idea how they would know how long we've had it here since there was nobody at the 'border control' between France and Spain.


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## xicoalc

thrax said:


> We see a lot of UK plated cars here and curiously most of them still sport a hugely out of date road tax. We have bought a Spanish car since arriving here but still have our UK car as well although we don't drive it anymore (waiting to get it matriculated before venturing out in it again.) It used to be that you were allowed to drive your UK plated car for 6 months legally before having to get it matriculated; is that still the rule? We were told it was but tbh I have no idea how they would know how long we've had it here since there was nobody at the 'border control' between France and Spain.


Yes 6 months. They would simply ask you to proove when you got it here... ferry ticket etc BUT if you have been resident for 12 months for example, and car here, it aint gonna wash with them!


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## Stravinsky

steve_in_spain said:


> Yes 6 months. They would simply ask you to proove when you got it here... ferry ticket etc BUT if you have been resident for 12 months for example, and car here, it aint gonna wash with them!


Err, the six months is for "tourists" isn't it, or people who own holiday apartments here .... as you say, if you are a resident here then that six months doesn't apply. The process should start within 60 days of moving here to reside ... or has that changed now without me realising


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## xicoalc

Stravinsky said:


> Err, the six months is for "tourists" isn't it, or people who own holiday apartments here .... as you say, if you are a resident here then that six months doesn't apply. The process should start within 60 days of moving here to reside ... or has that changed now without me realising


Im not sure about 60 days, all I know is that by the 6 months deadline it has to be marticulated. If you want to import tax free you do have to marticulate within 60 days of first going on padron or becoming resident, otherwise you pay import duty!


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## Stravinsky

steve_in_spain said:


> Im not sure about 60 days, all I know is that by the 6 months deadline it has to be marticulated. If you want to import tax free you do have to marticulate within 60 days of first going on padron or becoming resident, otherwise you pay import duty!


Yes I knew about the import "tax". That actually used to be 30 days, as I got caught out on that.

It's always been the case that once you reside here that you have to do it within a short period of time, but as I said, maybe it's changed


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## baldilocks

So, irrespective of whether it is 30 days, 60 days, six months, taking into account the cost of matriculation, low secondhand value in Spain and all the other hassle, unless your British car has exceptional sentimental value, it is hardly worth bringing it. Bear in mind what your vehicle will have to do when it gets here (narrow roads, very tight corners in many villages and towns) and of course does it have an efficient air conditioning system that can cope with 40°-50° or more in the sun.

What you may wish to do is bring various special items over to Spain in your own transport, e.g. grannie's valuable vase and some special plants that may survive here, etc, and then take the vehicle back to UK to sell it but, of course you have to offset the cost of the ferry/tunnel and fuel for a few thousand kilometre journey, plus en-route accommodation costs, etc.


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## thrax

All good advice - we will matriculate it not just for sentimental reasons (I drove it over here with my daughter, we've had it from new, it's never broken down (probably regret saying that) it is exceptionally comfortable, it isn't British and can handle temperatures of 45 degrees easily, has excellent airconditioning, very good miles per litre and it's here!!) In the end it is our decision and since we live in the campo with a young baby we need two cars just in case the Jeep packs up and the second car has to be very reliable, which this is. I'm not going to tell you the make coz the mods might consider it to be advertising (only joking JoJo) but you could have a guess. As with sausages (a reference to another post) it is always a personal choice. Jeez I'm rambling again and I haven't had a drink yet.


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## xicoalc

thrax said:


> As with sausages (a reference to another post) it is always a personal choice


Ay señor mio!


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## baldilocks

I was tempted with my lovely Volvo estate but...


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