# Should I come to Cairo ?



## Spit sheller

I'v been given a start date for the 20th of August, I'm expecting things to quieten down over Ramadan but after that it will probably escalate again, can anyone say how bad it is ? has anyone any predictions or speculations to share ? I am planning to stay in Cairo but at the moment not too sure......any advice or comments will be appreciated...cheers!


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## MaidenScotland

Of course no one can predict how bad it will or will not be... 

If you come make sure your employers have an evacuation plan is place.. guaranteed. 

Just now 12 tanks and 6 armoured cars have just passed my house.


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## MaidenScotland

Who is frightened? 

Must admit I am not but I am getting cabin fever as I am stuck in the house...


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## canuck2010

60,000 expats evacuated. Cairo will be quiet for a while.


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## MaidenScotland

And of course we will have no Gulf Arabs celebrating Ramadan in Cairo, and the Egyptians who can travel have or will, blimey the city will be empty


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## aykalam

I would definitely not come to Egypt now, things are not likely to calm down any time soon, with Islamists already threatening violence

My advice would be: if you are out, stay out


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## Spit sheller

aykalam said:


> I would definitely not come to Egypt now, things are not likely to calm down any time soon, with Islamists already threatening violence
> 
> My advice would be: if you are out, stay out


Have you heard of any Embasies evacuating staff yet?


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## MaidenScotland

Spit sheller said:


> Have you heard of any Embasies evacuating staff yet?




Yes the Americans have gone not sure about the UK but I would guess so ..but bear in mind a lot of expats get evacuated for insurance purposes.. 
ALL embassies look after their own staff before the man on the ground, 

Read the British Embassy website


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## cairo tiger

MaidenScotland said:


> Who is frightened?
> 
> Must admit I am not but I am getting cabin fever as I am stuck in the house...


This pretty much sums up how I'm feeling. Haven't felt unsafe at any point, but starting to feel fairly constricted. In fact I don't think I've left Zamalek for 9 days.


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## MaidenScotland

I spoke too soon... molotov cocktails thrown, fighting taking place outside my building,


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> I spoke too soon... molotov cocktails thrown, fighting taking place outside my building,


 

are they still there?


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## canuck2010

Looks like quite a bit of violence going on in different cities...


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## Guest

Latest reports are at least 30 dead in Friday clashes. It doesn't have to be this way. Resorting to continued unrest and violence isn't the answer. Expect instability to continue for awhile until both sides are willing to reconcile. Hopefully it doesn't become a marathon of endless bloodshed for the next decade.


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## Eco-Mariner

You want your head looking at if you think that Cairo will get back to any semblence of normality by August.... Sure, work must go on but these radicals will stop at nothing to get their Islamic way. If that means killing the 'infidels" I wouldn't be anywhere near the place.

However, I am optimistic that in another 12 months, the "People's" government will have made things more stable with investors and tourists resuming there rightful place in a more moderate climate..... It could not continue without total economic collapse or even a civil war between religion and politics. This was not a military coup, but it was "people-power" in action which is totally revolutionary.

Eco Mariner


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## Spit sheller

Looks like the wahhabis are not too happy


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## Guest

Eco-Mariner said:


> You want your head looking at if you think that Cairo will get back to any semblence of normality by August.... Sure, work must go on but these radicals will stop at nothing to get their Islamic way. If that means killing the 'infidels" I wouldn't be anywhere near the place.
> 
> However, I am optimistic that in another 12 months, the "People's" government will have made things more stable with investors and tourists resuming there rightful place in a more moderate climate..... It could not continue without total economic collapse or even a civil war between religion and politics. This was not a military coup, but it was "people-power" in action which is totally revolutionary.
> 
> Eco Mariner


It's both a popular uprising and a military coup. This could never have happened without the military intervention. Morsi has nearly as many backers as the anti-government movement which is something Mubarak didn't have in the streets during the revolution. This popular uprising would have met a stalemate without the intervention of the military. The expansion would have had to come to terms with the discipline that democracy is the rule of law. Then hash out the differences, organize and compete for political power as it would be known and understood that it was the only way. That is the proper evolution. To enforce and respect the institution not necessarily the politics of the different cultures. 

One year is also not enough time to tell if the President would have done a good job or not. His first year was fraught with trouble but he could have course corrected and should have been allowed to for the future stability of civilian rule. However, the recent events just put Egypt on the much longer path to stability. The instability in newly formed democracies can last for 10 - 25 year. It takes time for democratic peace to develop and mature.


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## MaidenScotland

Morsi made a promise to be a president for all Egyptians and one year down the line shows that this is not the case. Egyptians weren't protesting about what has happened in the last year, they wanted him out because of the fear of what was to come. 

Personally I don't think Morsi is a bad man and I believe he thought he could be a president for all Egyptians but he was an incompetent president. A man that was plucked out of the air, a man that has no personality, a man that had no experience,.. why would a party put this man forward, simple because they could mold him into what they wanted for the country not what he promised. 

I also do not believe for one moment that the MB would have stepped down through the ballot box. They were here to stay.


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## canuck2010

Another issue, the MB initially said they were not interested in fielding a presidential candidate, then of course they changed their mind when they discovered they had popular support. Power went to their heads and they became dictators.

Frankly, I think if they had been at least partially competent in improving the economy, reviving tourism, improving employment opportunities ect... then most people would have overlooked the implementation of Sharia, but things only went from bad to worse in the past year. 

The military, opportunists as ever took over. Everyone's calling this democracy, reality is there is a military junta in power yet again, supported by an unruly and unpredictable mob of disenfranchised citizens.

That said, if they bring in Mohamed el Baradei as President, things could improve quickly. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...baradei-back-in-political-limelight-1.1453155


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## cairo tiger

zaytoona said:


> It' Morsi has nearly as many backers as the anti-government movement.


No he doesn't.



zaytoona said:


> One year is also not enough time to tell if the President would have done a good job or not.


Yes it is. The guy continued to act in a manner which was not representative of the people. He continued to attempt to gain more power for the brotherhood and make inappropriate appointments across his government. It was clear that 3 more years of a Morsi government were only going to do more damage to the freedoms and values of Egyptian people. Egypt is patently a secular society and he failed to acknowledge that.


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## Eco-Mariner

... Cairo Tiger, you've got it in one !!!!


Eco-Mariner.


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## Biffy

One of the big mistakes he made was in one of his last addresses to a largely salafist audience.
He was trying to meddle in the situation in Syria - and called for Jihad!!

Surely he had more pressing issues at home to sort out than putting Egypt and Egyptians into the ****.

As for whether one year was enough - yes I think it was more than enough.
Nothing has improved - everything has got worse and for the people (the majority) that is serious - do you really think that they could continue for another 3 years??

No - not everything can be fixed in one year - but when the focus is on the parties own agenda (islamification) and the good of all Egyptians
- then something needed doing.


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## aykalam

Morsi is (was) an MB puppet. The Brothers themselves are not politicians, no matter what they think of themselves, they are preachers. Unable to govern an ungovernable country, starting with a collapsing economy, they decided to appeal to the religious identity of their followers. There was absolutely no economic program other than begging friendly countries in the area for hand outs. If it wasn't for those donations, particularly from Qatar and Libya, the economy would have defaulted.

A year is more than plenty to realise these guys are completely incompetent.


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## Guest

MaidenScotland said:


> I also do not believe for one moment that the MB would have stepped down through the ballot box. They were here to stay.


Unfortunately we will never know if that was indeed to become fact. Then the uprising would have been entirely justified without question in front of the world that they indeed had an autocratic ruler. The way that this was done was not the accepted way to go about it and sets dangerous precedents for Egypt's future. Based on past research of revolutions done by political scientists by doing it this way Egypt has little to no chance of succeeding in the aims they were seeking, but perhaps Egypt is the less than 1% exception to the facts and research done. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say it has added years possibly decades of instability that could have been circumvented if at first avoided from the start or waited out the democratic process in the next three years and done through peaceful means through a transfer of power in elections. What has recently occurred in Egypt is a great blow to democracy, but hopefully all is not lost.

In response to the rest of the following comments.

The MB does indeed have nearly as many followers as the opposition. Don't be in denial about this or think this is going to be easy by any means, because it's not going to be. The results of the prior election can confirm their numbers and political force. Their numbers and protests were largely unrepresented in some of the recent news but not in social media. You could see they are not small by any means. The opposition was also over inflated by foreigners joining the protest numbers and people being paid by the billionaire in Spain to increase the numbers. Don't be deceived by what you see and read when two protests prior to this did not reach momentum and went home. The recent petitions have also never been counted and verified. This will need to be done to settle the matter and bring more peace though at this point it won't bring much.

Indeed the laundry list of complaints against Morsi and the MB in the first year are long and I agree with the concerns for the most part. It was looking grim and less like a democracy.

However, the expectation that things would get considerably better in the first year is, well frankly, enormously over blown expectations that attributed and compounded the problems facing the new administration. Democracy is a slow moving beast and takes time to mature and develop in order to work out all the nuances of society. In newly formed democracies it takes years and in most cases over a decade for stability and economic improvement to be reached. 

I do think that the revolution was high-jacked from the true visionaries and starters of the revolution who were in Tahrir from day one. The fact is the MB supporters didn't join the revolutionaries until three days later after the security forces were overcome and the popular uprising was winning. This fact has been debated endlessly since then between the groups as to who should have been the leaders of the outcome of the revolution during the transfer of power and after the elections.

I also do agree with ElBadarei that the revolution has been corrected and the true spirit and vision of the revolutionaries has been restored. That this is better late than never. Though I am deeply concerned about the autocratic overtones that can be seen and felt this second time around. Be very careful here not to be blind to it's participation and agendas. It can also side line or even high-jack the revolution a second time which I am not above suspecting that is the case at this point in time.

Let it be the lesson for democracy. When establishing a nation don't rush things. Write the constitution first under the interim government so that it is all inclusive. This means including the voice of the minorities and the women! Refrain from the political arrests be it the revolutionary leaders from the first uprising or the MB leaders from the second uprising. After the rules of the game are properly agreed upon and established through the constitution allow enough time for all parties to organize politically. Have guidelines for elections that vet those running. Don't let just anybody run if they are indeed criminals and terrorists. Then hold the elections.


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## MaidenScotland

zaytoona said:


> Unfortunately we will never know if that was indeed to become fact. Then the uprising would have been entirely justified without question in front of the world that they indeed had an autocratic ruler. The way that this was done was not the accepted way to go about it and sets dangerous precedents for Egypt's future. Based on past research of revolutions done by political scientists by doing it this way Egypt has little to no chance of succeeding in the aims they were seeking, but perhaps Egypt is the less than 1% exception to the facts and research done. Otherwise, I'm sorry to say it has added years possibly decades of instability that could have been circumvented if at first avoided from the start or waited out the democratic process in the next three years and done through peaceful means through a transfer of power in elections. What has recently occurred in Egypt is a great blow to democracy, but hopefully all is not lost.
> 
> In response to the rest of the following comments.
> 
> The MB does indeed have nearly as many followers as the opposition. Don't be in denial about this or think this is going to be easy by any means, because it's not going to be. The results of the prior election can confirm their numbers and political force. Their numbers and protests were largely unrepresented in some of the recent news but not in social media. You could see they are not small by any means. The opposition was also over inflated by foreigners joining the protest numbers and people being paid by the billionaire in Spain to increase the numbers. Don't be deceived by what you see and read when two protests prior to this did not reach momentum and went home. The recent petitions have also never been counted and verified. This will need to be done to settle the matter and bring more peace though at this point it won't bring much.
> 
> Indeed the laundry list of complaints against Morsi and the MB in the first year are long and I agree with the concerns for the most part. It was looking grim and less like a democracy.
> 
> However, the expectation that things would get considerably better in the first year is, well frankly, enormously over blown expectations that attributed and compounded the problems facing the new administration. Democracy is a slow moving beast and takes time to mature and develop in order to work out all the nuances of society. In newly formed democracies it takes years and in most cases over a decade for stability and economic improvement to be reached.
> 
> I do think that the revolution was high-jacked from the true visionaries and starters of the revolution who were in Tahrir from day one. The fact is the MB supporters didn't join the revolutionaries until three days later after the security forces were overcome and the popular uprising was winning. This fact has been debated endlessly since then between the groups as to who should have been the leaders of the outcome of the revolution during the transfer of power and after the elections.
> 
> I also do agree with ElBadarei that the revolution has been corrected and the true spirit and vision of the revolutionaries has been restored. That this is better late than never. Though I am deeply concerned about the autocratic overtones that can be seen and felt this second time around. Be very careful here not to be blind to it's participation and agendas. It can also side line or even high-jack the revolution a second time which I am not above suspecting that is the case at this point in time.
> 
> Let it be the lesson for democracy. When establishing a nation don't rush things. Write the constitution first under the interim government so that it is all inclusive. This means including the voice of the minorities and the women! Refrain from the political arrests be it the revolutionary leaders from the first uprising or the MB leaders from the second uprising. After the rules of the game are properly agreed upon and established through the constitution allow enough time for all parties to organize politically. Have guidelines for elections that vet those running. Don't let just anybody run if they are indeed criminals and terrorists. Then hold the elections.





You are looking at things from the western point of view, if you had been around when the original revolution was being discussed daily on the forum you would have seen that we had said Egypt democracy and the wests idea will never be the same. We also said that the MB would be given a year to mess it up and then the army would step in.. we could see it, the average Egyptian could see it so there is no way the governments of the west couldn't and then sat back and waited for the **** to hit th fan. I am sure the west is quite happy with what has happened as is most of the gulf states. Don't forget Mubarak was always voted in lol


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## Guest

We could see it coming here too but the rules of democracy apply to the political science not to any one version or view in the world.

If they indeed had the foresight they would have known how to play this democratically. They could have done this any way but that way. By the very definition it was a military coup which is undemocratic. 

To leave no ambiguity the Western leaders that stand for democracy and the democratic process should say it out right that it was both a military coup and a popular uprising. Not either or. 

In the States if they indeed are for the democratic process then they should go ahead and follow the rule of law and announce the suspension of the military aid to Egypt. Otherwise they are setting a precedence that this kind of military coup in Egypt is acceptable with popular uprisings. 

For democracy and stability of the region the democratic leaders will need to discourage this kind of process from continuing in Egypt and give them no further chances from it happening again. Otherwise they will think that they can continue to do this and what's to stop the MB or Islamist from trying it next and continuing the cycle

The US can further say that the annual suspended military aid to Egypt will be under review contingent upon the return to democracy and civilian rule in Egypt. Secretary of State, John Kerry, can always apply for a waiver for the military aid upon the review as he did this last time after the last uprising.


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## MaidenScotland

Regardless of the legal definition... democracy western style will never in my time be democracy in Egypt, sure we had democratic elections and Mubarak one each and every one of them..democracy Egyptian style and the coup was impeachment Egyptian style. 



Egyptians have found their voice, their strength in numbers and they know that demonstrations make a difference so to expect them to roll over and now accept everything they don't like even if it is through the democratic processes is nothing short of naive


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## Biffy

The results of the prior elections show that the MB have plenty of support?
No - they show that the average Egyptian was between a rock and a hard place - vote for someone from the 'old regime' or vote MB - unfortunately their feelings towards the old regime were much stronger so they voted MB.

This is fact.
Many many family and people I know didn't know who to vote for - but the fact that Shafiq was from the old regime is THE only reason they voted the other way.
And straight after the elections they regretted it.
Also given the fact that the MB has been around for much longer than all the fledgling parties gave them a massive advantage.


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## Guest

The fact is those that were "between a rock and a hard place" in the last election were indeed a deciding factor in tipping the election but they were in no way the larger percentage of the election. Anyone claiming that is in denial. The Muslim Brotherhood and Islamist have a large backing in the last election and to deny that is also a mistake. They are the larger base and that remains the fact of the matter. The are the very reason for the clashes we're seeing from the pro-Morsi group.


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## Biffy

No question which side of the fence that you are on then!

And I think that the only people who are entitled to make these judgemants are the Egyptian people who live on the ground here in Egypt.

I have had this dicussion with my brother in law who live outside EGypt in thir comfortable jobs, not living with the day to day crap and the feeling of chaos and lawlessness that is prevalent here.
It is easy to be in that pirivileged positon and say the the ex-pres. should have stayed for another 3 yeasr and was doing well!!

ANyway - I have no desire to go further in a political discussion - there can be no winners.


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## Onchan

Spit sheller said:


> I'v been given a start date for the 20th of August, I'm expecting things to quieten down over Ramadan but after that it will probably escalate again, can anyone say how bad it is ? has anyone any predictions or speculations to share ? I am planning to stay in Cairo but at the moment not too sure......any advice or comments will be appreciated...cheers!


I wouldn't know what to advise. Watch the news, read the British FCO and American embassy advice, and try to average them out. Maybe wait until early August if you can before making a definite decision. 

I've just left Egypt for the summer; it seems strange that the British FCO advice to me is different now than it was when I was still in Egypt a few days ago: 

_"British nationals who are currently not in Egypt:

In view of the continued unrest and ongoing evolving political situation in Egypt, the FCO recommends against all but essential travel to Egypt except for resorts on the Red Sea in South Sinai and those resorts on the Egyptian mainland in Red Sea governorate.

In the governorate of South Sinai the FCO advise against all but essential travel, with the exception of (i) the Red Sea Resorts including those in the entire region of Sharm el Sheikh, Taba, Nuweiba and Dahab; (ii) the St Catherine’s Monastery World Heritage Site; (iii) road travel between the Red Sea resorts; (iv) road travel from the Red Sea resorts to St Catherine’s Monastery approaching from the east; and (v) transfers between the resorts and the airports of Taba and Sharm el Sheikh. See South Sinai and Road travel.

British nationals in-country already in Egypt:

Although we are not recommending immediate departure at the moment, British nationals already in Egypt in areas where we advise against all but essential travel should consider whether they have a pressing need to remain. While in Egypt they should stay at or close to home or a place of safety (e.g. their hotel), keep a low profile and pay close attention to their personal safety, particularly in the larger cities. They should take particular care to avoid crowds. The situation is changeable and they should continue to watch our travel advice closely.

We are not advising against the use of Cairo airport as a transit stop providing you do not leave the airport grounds._


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## CAIRODEMON

canuck2010 said:


> 60,000 expats evacuated. Cairo will be quiet for a while.


Don't forget that this was the week when many schools closed for the summer. How many of the 60K were truly "evacuated" and how many were going anyway?


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## alexander4455

I have friend who works and lives in Cairo, he returns to UK monthly. A month ago he spoke of tension and even a trip around Cairo in a taxi as dangerous. However, just saw him yesterday and now he speaks of a carnival atmosphere. People happy. Police and army very present but a very comforting reassuring atmosphere. People are rejoicing and they are optimistic. He speaks of news coverage showing images different to what hee sees. He thinks foreign news channels are distorting the news and frightening people. He speaks of people re investing and the American embassy is re opening. He said his own employers (British) are very positive and very optimistic. The gloom is lifting, do not watch too many news channels


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## MaidenScotland

I don't need to look at the news channels.. molotov cocktails thrown outside my building on Friday, police station attacked on Saturday, doesn't feel very carnival like to me..


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## MaidenScotland

I leave early hours of Wednesday morning and now wondering if I should go to the airport tomorrow night and stay in a hotel, MB is going to hold demonstrations on all the major roads... starting tonight.


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## canuck2010

We're lucky most people are fasting, too tired to make any trouble.


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## aykalam

alexander4455 said:


> I have friend who works and lives in Cairo, he returns to UK monthly. A month ago he spoke of tension and even a trip around Cairo in a taxi as dangerous. However, just saw him yesterday and now he speaks of a carnival atmosphere. People happy. Police and army very present but a very comforting reassuring atmosphere. People are rejoicing and they are optimistic. He speaks of news coverage showing images different to what hee sees. He thinks foreign news channels are distorting the news and frightening people. He speaks of people re investing and the American embassy is re opening. He said his own employers (British) are very positive and very optimistic. The gloom is lifting, do not watch too many news channels


I bet your friend doesn't live in Nasr City


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## aykalam

This from Twitter just a few minutes ago


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## MaidenScotland

Violent clashes erupted during a protests staged by supporters of deposed president Mohammed Morsi after they moved to block traffic on the October 6 Bridge and at Ramsees Square.

Reports indicate that the clashes started after security forces moved to stop Morsi supporters from blocking these vital roads, however it is still unclear whether these reports are true.

Eye-witnesses have stated that protesters are chanting against the police while hurling rocks at security forces who have in turn fired tear gas in order to disperse the demonstrators. Meanwhile, Al-Jazeera Mubasher (wish you may or may not choose to trust) has claimed that security forces are using live ammunition against protesters.

Today's protests came after Morsi supporters vowed to "paralyse Egypt" by targeting a variety of vital roads and institutions. More information will be provided as it becomes available. courtesy of Egyptian Streets,


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## MaidenScotland

alexander4455 said:


> I have friend who works and lives in Cairo, he returns to UK monthly. A month ago he spoke of tension and even a trip around Cairo in a taxi as dangerous. However, just saw him yesterday and now he speaks of a carnival atmosphere. People happy. Police and army very present but a very comforting reassuring atmosphere. People are rejoicing and they are optimistic. He speaks of news coverage showing images different to what hee sees. He thinks foreign news channels are distorting the news and frightening people. He speaks of people re investing and the American embassy is re opening. He said his own employers (British) are very positive and very optimistic. The gloom is lifting, do not watch too many news channels





Please ask your friend where the carnival is so I can move there.


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## alexander4455

I will, I know that he is involved with one of the biggest shopping centres in Egypt due completion 2015. Think its a British Project but not sure


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## txlstewart

alexander4455 said:


> I will, I know that he is involved with one of the biggest shopping centres in Egypt due completion 2015. Think its a British Project but not sure


Sounds like Festival City. Carnival indeed--perhaps because of all the clowns around there....


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## MaidenScotland

Telling people there is a carnival feeling in Cairo is mind boggling and dangerous. The majority of posters on this page live in Cairo or in the surrounding satellite cities and are in a better position to tell people what is going on first hand. 

Arriving in Cairo is a minefield for the uninitiated, living through what has happened at least gives us the knowledge of the geography where trouble is happening and we can avoid the area. People are dying here every single day! Living in Cairo safely is not the same as being a safe tourist or someone just off the plane.


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## CAIRODEMON

alexander4455 said:


> I have friend who works and lives in Cairo, he returns to UK monthly. A month ago he spoke of tension and even a trip around Cairo in a taxi as dangerous. However, just saw him yesterday and now he speaks of a carnival atmosphere. People happy. Police and army very present but a very comforting reassuring atmosphere. People are rejoicing and they are optimistic. He speaks of news coverage showing images different to what hee sees. He thinks foreign news channels are distorting the news and frightening people. He speaks of people re investing and the American embassy is re opening. He said his own employers (British) are very positive and very optimistic. The gloom is lifting, do not watch too many news channels


Interested to know where your friend lives/works. Also where does he buy the stuff that he is obviously smoking, I could do with some myself.


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## MaidenScotland

CAIRODEMON said:


> Interested to know where your friend lives/works. Also where does he buy the stuff that he is obviously smoking, I could do with some myself.




I think you have hit the nail on the head  

We have a saying in Scotland, "Stop your havering" I think it applies to his friend.


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## MaidenScotland

I am guessing not many people are coming.. my BA flight tomorrow morning has been cancelled due to technical problems, cancelled at 11 am this morning.. plenty of time for BA to put on another plane, last Friday BA flight cancelled due to technical problems and this time they forgot to tell the passengers leaving on the outward journey.. 

I would take a good guess and say the plane is empty and that is why these technical difficulties are happening 

btw I am on Egypt air... 

on another note I have been told you cannot get insurance if you are flying out to here.


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## aykalam

I think you can't get insurance when there's a travel warning in place, which is the case right now. 

So you changed from BA to Egypt Air today?


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## MaidenScotland

Yes I am on the EA flight today along with Lanason who was on the BA flight.. we got the email about 30 minutes before the office closed and I was luckily enough to manage to speak to them, Lanason got the message that the office closed early for Ramadan but he went straight to the airport desks to find out what was happening. 

hasta luego 

Maiden


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## CAIRODEMON

MaidenScotland said:


> I am guessing not many people are coming.. my BA flight tomorrow morning has been cancelled due to technical problems, cancelled at 11 am this morning.. plenty of time for BA to put on another plane, last Friday BA flight cancelled due to technical problems and this time they forgot to tell the passengers leaving on the outward journey..
> 
> I would take a good guess and say the plane is empty and that is why these technical difficulties are happening
> 
> btw I am on Egypt air...
> 
> on another note I have been told you cannot get insurance if you are flying out to here.


BA had already replaced the 747's with smaller aircraft about a month ago. Flew back Sunday from Heathrow, very few passengers mostly Egyptian and transit. BA transfered the flight to a charter airline, first time I have experienced this.


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## Maireadhoey

txlstewart said:


> Sounds like Festival City. Carnival indeed--perhaps because of all the clowns around there....


Nope, this sounds like Mall of Egypt, so he is based 6th of October. Festival city finishes this year, or early 2014.


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## Maireadhoey

CAIRODEMON said:


> BA had already replaced the 747's with smaller aircraft about a month ago. Flew back Sunday from Heathrow, very few passengers mostly Egyptian and transit. BA transfered the flight to a charter airline, first time I have experienced this.


Flights to Egypt are at 30% occupancy. I read this yesterday but can't find the link. They are doubling up and yes as you say transferring to Charter flights


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## Biffy

Carnival atmosphere in 6th October!!??
He must be joking!

There have been some quite bad clashes between the 2 groups on the street in the centre of 6th October - a couple of people killed - including one woman who had metal pins (nails) through the top of her head.

Also they surrounded the company I work for (the guy who owns it has links to the MB).

In Juhayna square we have also had the army present - and Mall of Arabia was on full alert.

So - no definitely no carnival atmosphere here!!


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## canuck2010

Maybe he hasn't come out of his guarded compound in a few months?


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## alexander4455

*further comment*



txlstewart said:


> Sounds like Festival City. Carnival indeed--perhaps because of all the clowns around there....


 I just wanted to add, I am not there and a month earlier this gentleman had been terrified but now he was much more relaxed and he lives there and goes to his house in the evenings. He spoke of shortages reduced, tension reduced, fuel queues finished, electric cuts less. This is an improvement and I welcome comments from people who see other incidents in other areas. I am not a Cairo spokewomen and I am going there myself in August so I would like re assurance that it is safe to travel. So do not shoot the messenger. He did add that news channels photo footage is slightly exagerated and the crowds anti Morsi were far greater but it was never broadcast on our News channels. 

Its funny because relatives phoned us from the Middle East last year and they thought we were all in danger as news footage had been broadcast over there showing the UK in our own version of riots.


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## Guest

Well some of my family is back in Cairo now from their retreat to Qena. I heard about the clashes in Qena with automatic weapons. It didn't seem to have to do with the political crisis as it was over a tribal feud. Not my husband's tribe. His is a very large tribe down there that spans into Luxor and as far as I know they don't get into much trouble.

My younger SIL just got the results back this week for the standardized test scores they use to apply to college. They were very good but not as good as the older siblings hoped. Now she along with many others will begin applying to Universities. 

The family is going to go ahead with the engagement party for my BIL sometime in the next two months. We won't be able to make it and it appears the wedding may be next March. I'm hoping things cool down by then and travel warnings are lifted. However dh says that while he'll still be making the trip he is not willing to have me risk it as the animal of anger is out now. Even his family admits it's not safe for me and they are usually very encouraging and eager to have us both there. I'm not willing to go myself now with the travel warnings and the attacks on foreigners and death of an American. Many of our University exchange programs have canceled the following academic year in Egypt. I know I could travel to the red sea resorts and be relatively safe but my family isn't going to have the wedding there just for my sake. 

The protests and clashes are ongoing and there seems to be no end in sight for the unrest even as they try to manage a transition back to democracy. The military may still have a long fight ahead of them but it's a familiar battle to hold their ground. It doesn't appear they're willing to release anyone from detention as they've launched investigations. 

I haven't heard news about our property in 6th of October. However I did hear that power and petrol seemed to be restored somewhat more. I don't know if this is due to Ramadan or their new government at work. Overall the feelings expressed by the family is that it is still bad politically but that it seems to be getting better economically. Which is where it should start getting better first or nothing else will be able to fall into place correctly.


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## Biffy

Yes, the fuel and electricity crisis is far better.
If there was any real problem in the supply in the first place.
Most of the problems were created to destabilise the country and basically to wind the people up before the 30/06.

Although we have had a few power cuts over the last few days - but power cuts in summer are nothing new and perfectly normal - the power stations just can't cope with the demand - mind you what do you expect when Egypt is lit up like a christmas tree in the evenings - I have never seen so many lights on.
Strange isn't it that with the advent of greener living the west is very conscious of reducing the time / number of lights - where as here Cairo has got to be one of the brightest cities in the world if you were looking from space. 

Safe - better - but not yet 'safe'.

Most people are making sure that they are not out and about so much at night - and many security measures are still in place at the malls, etc.
I live in 6th October - it is better than central Cairo - but there have still been clashes (far worse than I expected) - and I am being careful where I go.

I speak ARabic, and know the area - but it's not worth putting myself in unsafe situations for the sake of it.

I am surprised at many Europeans still being here to be honest - if working for a multinational they tend to evacuate the westerners due to the stipulations of insurance (as already said) - we have European contractors working for us at the moment and they had to leave due to this.

Egypt is calmer - but talk to the people - they are still unsure as to how all this is going to turn out. Especially if the MB won't back down. ANd the longer the stand off lasts the more possibilities there are for trouble / violence.
The MB has a whole different arm to them than the peaceful political party and would they get involved (if they haven't been involved already) if it lasts longer??

I think it is a case of watch this space - and no-one is saying never come - but maybe 2013 isn't the year to do it!!


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## canuck2010

I was downtown at the Semiramis Intercon on Wednesday morning, the hotel was virtually empty. I counted only four other hotel guests walk through the lobby for the hour I was there. Shortly after I left a few hundred MB protestors appeared right outside the hotel and blocked the road. Until these protests die down, the situation will continue to be unstable.


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## cairo tiger

Biffy said:


> Yes, the fuel and electricity crisis is far better.
> If there was any real problem in the supply in the first place.
> Most of the problems were created to destabilise the country and basically to wind the people up before the 30/06.


The only reason we haven't had electricity cuts is because the military has employed the short term solution of pumping more fuel into the power stations.

This country is still very much short of electricity.


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## Guest

When you start hearing about beheadings of Coptic Christians in Sinai you know you've got an AQ Islamist extremist problem to deal with.

That will definitely keep Americans out and on the run. 

Gun loving America doesn't care about automatic weapons, tanks rolling through streets, car bombs, rock throwing or mass mania at protests where buildings are burned down and people are stabbed to death. We're exposed to a violent media culture and an indoctrinated war nation. 

We know it could happen that 33 people get killed at a college campus in Virginia by an active shooter, or 13 people shot dead at a high school in Colorado by teenagers, or 26 first graders and staff may be massacred at an elementary school in Connecticut by an arsenal of assault rifles, or you could be in a mass shooting shopping at a mall in Oregon, or at the midnight showing of a popular movie at the cinema in Colorado, or at a grocery store in Arizona where your State representative is speaking, or on the random chance be in a bombing in NYC, Oklahoma or while running a marathon in Boston. We've even watched tanks roll through our streets going door to door looking for the Boston Marathon bomber. Heck you could be shot and killed on the streets of Chicago a mile from the President's home there because Americans love their guns and second amendment rights. 

When a guy has a failed shoe bomb or a failed under wear bomb on a plane we're all happy to strip off our shoes, and get invasive pat downs and full body x-ray scans at the airports to ride the air buses, but for heaven sake don't take away our guns or do much of anything about the gun violence in public places. Never mind how many wars our sons and daughters are off fighting in other countries at any one time.

However, when you start hearing about beheadings in the middle east you just don't want to go there and get your head chopped off.

When will it all end? :behindsofa:


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## Biffy

Was this not the MB's plan for Sinai anyway?
To use the no-mans land as a training ground for these exteremists!?


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## emmab73

Just to chuck in my tuppence worth, our company is on alert level 2, higher than 2 sees us being evacuated on a charter flight from the military airport, there have been many days of cancelled work and short days since it all kicked off, I live on the outskirts of 6th October nearer the Remaya Sq end, although we have seen nothing on our compound ( its very out of the way) we have heard shots fired, I have basically not gone out of the house in 3 weeks except to do grocery shopping, security on husbands work site have also been firing shots (assume warning only). As was once wisely said to me on this board, living in Egypt does mean compromise, however had I had any inclination of the safety and security issues that have arisen since I arrived in April I would not have dreamed of coming here in a month of Sundays.

I am due to head home this week until after Ramadan at which point I will decide on whether I am coming back or not for the foreseeable future at least can't really see any end to this situation and staying in the house 24/7 isn't living.


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## Biffy

That is pretty good feedback from someone who is relatively new to coming to Cairo.
And someone to whom living as an expat isn't new.

But you are right it isn't living - and my other half has even asked me not to go to the lager malls / supermarkets like dandy . mall of arabia - because if the stupids want to target anywhere it will be those places.

I am the same - only going out for necessities - all I can say is thank god for clubs and swimming pools as the children wih 3 children I think we are all starting to suffer from cabin fever


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## CAIRODEMON

Biffy said:


> That is pretty good feedback from someone who is relatively new to coming to Cairo.
> And someone to whom living as an expat isn't new.
> 
> But you are right it isn't living - and my other half has even asked me not to go to the lager malls / supermarkets like dandy . mall of arabia - because if the stupids want to target anywhere it will be those places.
> 
> I am the same - only going out for necessities - all I can say is thank god for clubs and swimming pools as the children wih 3 children I think we are all starting to suffer from cabin fever


"LAGER MALLS" Was that a freudian slip? Love the concept though


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## emmab73

I was a little shocked at the added security in Mall Of Arabia, Dandy was a bit more relaxed although I was happy they were doing something even if it was just checking cars, for me it's the unknown factor as well, I don;t know Cairo very well and have no idea which areas to avoid etc, so I just avoid them all!


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## emmab73

CAIRODEMON said:


> "LAGER MALLS" Was that a freudian slip? Love the concept though


Could be the answer to peace here?


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## Biffy

LAGER ' malls

Hahah LOL - it could be - we are nearly 2 weeks into Ramadan after all.

I really must spell check - but the kids were hassling me to go swimming so I just pressed submit!!


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## Biffy

Trust me after what happened to the city centre in Maadi during the last revolution I thought it was kind of relaxed (apparently though they do have snipers on the roof also!!)


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## sumada

Yes a lot of us are stuck at home !! Making do with what is in the fridge and then popping to seoudi supermarket only when really needed. Cabin fever at the moment.


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## Biffy

looks like the violence is spreading - there was fighting and deaths in places that were previously quiet!


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## Gounie

Security is going to be tight in El Gouna Wednesday! We have the CAF Ahly v Zamalek match at 4.30pm....
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/76971.aspx


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## emmab73

Yeah its a right carnival alright http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCon...-after-overnight-clashes-leave--dead,--i.aspx


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## Biffy

The fightin in Giza was down near the Pharaohnic village!


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## GM1

As I have said before, please check the app Bey2ollak or Wasalny. People will write if something is going on.


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## Joe EK

I don't think it is a good idea to go there now, and very soon according to the news there will be something happening, clearly it is not gonna be stable and safe for a while.


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## canuck2010

It's probably going to be unstable for the next 6-12 months, at least until they amend the constitution, elect Parliament, and finally choose the new President.


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## MaidenScotland

Sadly I see Cairo going the same way as ulster


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## Spit sheller

well I certainly got that wrong expecting it to quieten down over Ramadan, 100 dead and 1000 injured in Cairo.
I think that was a bad call by Sisi, he already had the peoples mandate so why the show of power?


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## canuck2010

Well, they can't say the military didn't warn people this was going to happen. Still tragic, yet completely predictable.


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## Spit sheller

Agree, but for me he has lost all his credibility with such a senseless act, a red rag to a bull judging by the strength of feeling on the pro Morsi side, I just hope they find a compromise soon and the waste of human life ends.


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## Biffy

I don't what he was hoping to acieve.??

Has he just labelled the MB as terrorists - and given himself the mandate to kill other Egyptians because they have a different opinion??


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## Eco-Mariner

.... many expressions are lost in translation, especially Arabic. What Al-Sissi is trying to say is that terrorist organisations planted inside rioting crowds will be found and punished.

Al Queda, Al-Shabab etc. and many Salafi extremist groups are determined to undermine any form of democratic government wanting extreme Shuria Islamic rule and have infiltrated the "rebel" tamarod and Morsi demonstrations. They indescrimanally shoot and kill to incite mob rule.

The difficulty for Al-Sissi (as in Afganistan, Pakistan, Mali, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and now Syria ) is to seperate and isolate these radicals from the true political demonstrators. 

If they are filmed and found in the process of acts of terrorism, Al-Sissi has my vote to do whatever he may to avoid innocents being killed or maimed by them. 


Eco-Mariner


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## canuck2010

....and what about those plain clothed agents and snipers (spotted on rooftops during all MB protests) that open fire at random? It is in the military's interest to maintain chaos, then the people beg them to bring things under control. Classic Mubarak playbook. Ofcouse, if there aren't free and fair elections in 10 months time, we'll all know the real intention of the Military regardless.


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