# Spain Recoils



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/hunger-on-the-rise-in-spain.html?ref=world&_r=0

It makes me angry when I read these things! arrghhh!! There are 46 million people in Spain! Not everybody is in ´trouble´. Mind you, where I live, no-one would think we are in the middle of this BIG crisis... people out drinking, dining, cinema, shopping centres full, etc, etc. Whether they are just ´window shopping´´, I don´t know but Gosh! Anyone would think we are in the middle of the Afrikan Congo. 

Pah! ´nuff said! Off to watch the news, although that is even worse, methinks!

PS: ... and some of the comment on that newspaper are vile!!


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

You know, there's nothing in that report that I haven't read in Spanish newspapers previously. In fact, the other day the headline and front page photo of one of the most popular free papers in Madrid was about people scavenging for food (because the supermarkets throw it out rather than donate it - for health and safety reasons). It's a real problem, and ignoring it won't make it go away. 

Having said that, it's never nice to read about your country in a foreign newspaper and wonder what on earth they think about you there. Not that the Americans don't suffer a lot from their portrayal in our papers - the Spanish and British papers love to make fun of Mittens Romney and bang on about the death of the American dream all the time - so I guess it's fair.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Yeah, maybe you are right... as in Brad Pitt´s last movie ´América is not a country, it´s a business´.

It is just the comments of some people there... ´Spanish people sleeping the siesta everyday for hours and everything closed until they decide to get up´.... lol! I have never slept the siesta myself! 

I bet some people still think we only eat spanish omelettes and go out wearing flamenco dresses ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

€400 p.m.? She is living in a squat so no rent or bills! What is she spending it on?

We are 3 adults with two dogs and a canary and manage on €600 *and* pay the bills (elect, water, gas, council tax, etc). Some people don't know when they are well off, yet still complain and scavenge. She should try living in a South American country where there is no Social Security at all where the choice is steal or starve!


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Lolito said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/25/world/europe/hunger-on-the-rise-in-spain.html?ref=world&_r=0
> 
> It makes me angry when I read these things! arrghhh!! Anyone would think we are in the middle of the Afrikan Congo. !


If only Spaniards would get rid of their denial and their little Obnoxious "Spain is not Uganda" attitude. In many ways Spain reminds me of an old, delussional, once rich - now bancrupted lady that refuses to take off her gold and diamonds because she cant face the humilliation of being poor. 

WE need a reality check and come to terms with it.


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

Sonrisa said:


> If only Spaniards would get rid of their denial and their little Obnoxious "Spain is not Uganda" attitude. In many ways Spain reminds me of an old, delussional, once rich - now bancrupted lady that refuses to take off her gold and diamonds because she cant face the humilliation of being poor.
> 
> WE need a reality check and come to terms with it.


Bit like Gran Britannia then


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

But haven't we all, Governments and people, been living beyond our means?
Of course no politician dare say that but it's true. 
With the adoption of the euro and cheap cross-border credit, governments, companies and individuals went on a credit-fuelled spending spree. Now the air is filled with the sound of flapping wings as chickens come home to roost.
Globalisation made the already wealthier more wealthy and to camouflage the huge gap between the haves and have-nots we plebs were thrown plastic cards so we could buy on tick a poor copy of what the rich bought with their spare change.
Of course not all of us did this...but sadly you can't separate frugal sheep from profligate goats.
We are doomed to suffer collectively.....the prudent retiree who saved and now sees interest rates at near zero and the young couple who upped their mortgage to buy a bigger house, a flasher car...In that sense we truly are 'all in this together'.
Politicians should be honest with people. Tell the truth: that the West is being pushed into second place as China, India, Brazil, Singapore and other formerly 'undeveloped' countries begin to pose a real threat to our hegemony.
Tell people the truth: that we shall probably become, like Japan, a no-growth economy. 
And is that such a terrible prospect? Do we need an IPhone 5 ? The latest 3D tv - the thought of seeing Rajoy or Eric Pickles in 3D is quite alarming.
The 'down with capitalism ' protestors resemble Jehovah's Witnesses....wasting time and energy on trying to bring about something the vast majority don't want and which wouldn't work anyway.
We should be urging our politicians to work for a more gentle, humane capitalism where markets are the servants and not the masters of society.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Indeed.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But haven't we all, Governments and people, been living beyond our means?
> .


No not all of us. 

We own our property, we owe not one cent, we can save and invest and with a little risk get a good return on our investments.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Hepa said:


> No not all of us.
> 
> We own our property, we owe not one cent, we can save and invest and with a little risk get a good return on our investments.


You ought to be in charge ! Got to be better than the supposed 'experts'.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Just a reminder to virgil that it's countries like Germany, France, Netherlands and 'Gran Brittania' that have allowed Spain to be so profligate since it joined the EU. Spain has always been a net recipient of EU funds along with Greece and Ireland and guess which countries are in trouble now they have been asked to pay something in?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lolito said:


> Yeah, maybe you are right... as in Brad Pitt´s last movie ´América is not a country, it´s a business´.
> 
> It is just the comments of some people there... ´Spanish people sleeping the siesta everyday for hours and everything closed until they decide to get up´.... lol! I have never slept the siesta myself!
> 
> I bet some people still think we only eat spanish omelettes and go out wearing flamenco dresses ...


I've been having an extra siesta for you !


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> You ought to be in charge ! Got to be better than the supposed 'experts'.


No not me, I have done the being in charge thing.

Definition of expert, split the word,

Ex = X an algebraic symbol, which means, *sod all.*

The remainder sounds like spert, could be defined thus, *a drip under pressure*.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Lolito said:


> I bet some people still think we only eat spanish omelettes and go out wearing flamenco dresses ...


It's a lie, it's all lies; I've never worn a flamenco dress in my life, your Honour.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> No not all of us.
> 
> We own our property, we owe not one cent, we can save and invest and with a little risk get a good return on our investments.


Read again, Hepa. I said you can't separate frugal sheep from profligate goats....

We sold all our properties, owe no money.....we live within our means but we cannot escape the 'bad things' that those who weren't so prudent have inflicted on those who weren't.

No man is an island, as the saying goes...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thrax said:


> It's a lie, it's all lies; I've never worn a flamenco dress in my life, your Honour.....


Only because you can't find one in your size....

Not for want of trying....


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

It's not the size, Mary, it's the colour...... Oooooeeeer Missus, just given the game away


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Read again, Hepa. I said you can't separate frugal sheep from profligate goats....
> 
> We sold all our properties, owe no money.....we live within our means but we cannot escape the 'bad things' that those who weren't so prudent have inflicted on those who weren't.
> 
> No man is an island, as the saying goes...


I only ever read the first couple of lines, and I haven't any goats or sheep. Chap up the road has a herd of cows though.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I only ever read the first couple of lines, and I haven't any goats or sheep. Chap up the road has a herd of cows though.


Goats or sheep? he can probably get awaywith wellies, but cows - he'd probably need waders.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> We sold all our properties, owe no money.....we live within our means but we cannot escape the 'bad things' that those who weren't so prudent have inflicted on those who weren't.


Same here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Same here.



Life is so unfair....Sod it


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## Tippy (Nov 1, 2010)

Lolito said:


> Yeah, maybe you are right... as in Brad Pitt´s last movie ´América is not a country, it´s a business´.
> 
> It is just the comments of some people there... ´Spanish people sleeping the siesta everyday for hours and everything closed until they decide to get up´.... lol! I have never slept the siesta myself!
> 
> I bet some people still think we only eat spanish omelettes and go out wearing flamenco dresses ...


Are you telling me that's not true. Now that's blown my illusions!


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## Tippy (Nov 1, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> €400 p.m.? She is living in a squat so no rent or bills! What is she spending it on?
> 
> We are 3 adults with two dogs and a canary and manage on €600 *and* pay the bills (elect, water, gas, council tax, etc). Some people don't know when they are well off, yet still complain and scavenge. She should try living in a South American country where there is no Social Security at all where the choice is steal or starve!


I don't know how you manage on just 600 euros a week . It must be a real struggle, lol


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Tippy said:


> I don't know how you manage on just 600 euros a week . It must be a real struggle, lol


it is 600 *p.m.*


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## Tippy (Nov 1, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> it is 600 *p.m.*


Oh! Doh!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Tippy said:


> Oh! Doh!


My spanish sister-in-law with husband , daughter and dog live on 900 Es a month. Of course they have the school costs and Jose's travel to work costs so probably is very similar to Baldilocks (except the canary ).

But the issue is not living on 900 Es but will there be 900Es next month. It is the uncertainty that creates the stress for them. If the 900 Es was guaranteed they would be very happy


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> My spanish sister-in-law with husband , daughter and dog live on 900 Es a month. Of course they have the school costs and Jose's travel to work costs so probably is very similar to Baldilocks (except the canary ).
> 
> But the issue is not living on 900 Es but will there be 900Es next month. It is the uncertainty that creates the stress for them. If the 900 Es was guaranteed they would be very happy


Sadly, there can be no guarantees for anyone with the economy in the state it's in. I doubt if certainty has existed anywhere for any great period of time.
Working and retired people everywhere are living in a state of stress and uncertainty.....whether it's about having a job next week, whether wages and pensions will be frozen, for British immigrants the uncertainty of the exchange rate...
There can be no certainty in the world....whether from acts of mankind or acts of nature.
Governments screw up, borrow too much, fail to invest for growth...and nature sends droughts, fires and floods. All these affect our everyday lives.


As for the current situation it seems the vast majority of thoughtful people Europe-wide realise that there is no option other than to reduce debts and deficits.
Demos, strikes, sit-ins reflect the understandable frustration and anger of some but have achieved nothing and it seems the majority are resigned to tough times ahead.
When the deficits and debts have been cut to manageable levels the big question should be... how do governments regain control of their national economies?
How did we allow the financial markets to have the power to dictate the policies of elected representatives?
We need a gentler form of capitalism where markets serve not rule society. We need to recognise that people value stability - not uncertainty - over 'choice' - and we all know choice depends on having the means to exercise it and having a range of valuable options from which to choose.
I wonder if the current crisis will make people more aware of the fact that power lies not in their hands but in the unelected transnational bodies..the EU, IMF, GATT and so on.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Sadly, there can be no guarantees for anyone with the economy in the state it's in.


No guarantees Mary but there is a difference between say three old age pensioners able to live on one third of their income and a family clinging to one form of employment, not able to acumulate, and very unlikely to find anything else once it has gone. 

I'd rather rely on the UK Treasury than Jose's ham factory 

ps No idea about Balidilocks situation, just a general example


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> No guarantees Mary but there is a difference between say three old age pensioners able to live on one third of their income and a family clinging to one form of employment, not able to acumulate, and very unlikely to find anything else once it has gone.
> 
> I'd rather rely on the UK Treasury than Jose's ham factory
> 
> ps No idea about Balidilocks situation, just a general example



I have zero faith or trust in HM Treasury with the current Chancellor in charge, Nigel...and even the UK Treasury is at the mercy of global markets which determine its bond yields.

This is the dilemma faced by all European Governments...growth is desperately needed but at the merest hint that public money will be used to kickstart employment the markets react by making the cost of borrowing unsustainable.
The only other source of public funding - the taxpayer - is a well that is running dry.
Deregulation has enabled the super-rich to move their capital out of the reach of national governments and taxing high earners won't bring in the revenue needed, as Hollande will surely discover in France.
The fact is that taxing people on incomes of £40k plus does act as a disincentive for many people. 
Towards the end of my teaching career I was on a 'Leadership' pay scale which took me -just - into the 40% tax bracket. Frankly, I wasn't willing to get more promotions which meant more work and even longer hours if I were to receive only 60p of every £ earned.
When you consider that the average earner pays, all things taken into account, over 50% of their income in taxes - VAT/IVA, flight taxes, fuel taxes, road tolls and taxes, alcohol and tobacco duty......it's no wonder that people are unwilling to pay higher taxes.
So Governments are squeezed between the demands of the markets for higher yields and the unwillingness of the people to pay yet more of their income in taxes.

This is the fundamental dilemma facing all EU governments and all the strikes, sit-ins, marches and demos have failed to come up with a solution.
.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Sadly, there can be no guarantees for anyone with the economy in the state it's in. I doubt if certainty has existed anywhere for any great period of time.
> Working and retired people everywhere are living in a state of stress and uncertainty.....whether it's about having a job next week, whether wages and pensions will be frozen, for British immigrants the uncertainty of the exchange rate...
> There can be no certainty in the world....whether from acts of mankind or acts of nature.
> Governments screw up, borrow too much, fail to invest for growth...and nature sends droughts, fires and floods. All these affect our everyday lives.
> ...


Feeling a little more cheerful today are we Mary?

_"How *did we allow* the financial markets to have the power to dictate the policies of elected representatives?"_

I question your choice of words (as you knew I would). I was rather under the impression that we didn't actually *allow* them to do it. It was more a case of certain political masters who were supposed to have been elected to protect our interests and interests of the country as a whole who took it upon themselves to protect and support the interests of their bosom friends and sod those who put them in that position.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I have zero faith or trust in HM Treasury .


 So you think UK old age pensioners in Spain are likely to see their pensions withheld sometime within say the next 20 years? Should Baldilocks be in fear? 

To be serious I made my post because I think Baldilocks is an example of why people in similar positions should consider spain. He is happy, has a stable income, and although small a contributor to Spain.

I think we cannot repeat enough that that is miles away from your non spanish speaking Brit entrepreneur who thinks spain needs more cheap british food. I'm sure you'd agree.

But also comparing the plight of desperate spanish with Brits with almost guranteed incomes needs to be handled sensitively. The examples given in the press I treat with a great deal of sceptism


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> So you think UK old age pensioners in Spain are likely to see their pensions withheld sometime within say the next 20 years? Should Baldilocks be in fear?
> 
> To be serious I made my post because I think Baldilocks is an example of why people in similar positions should consider spain. He is happy, has a stable income, and although small a contributor to Spain.
> 
> ...


_"The examples given in the press I treat with a great deal of sceptism"_ I treat everything I see or hear or read in the media with the greatest of scepticism as I theink should everybody.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> _"The examples given in the press I treat with a great deal of sceptism"_ I treat everything I see or hear or read in the media with the greatest of scepticism as I theink should everybody.


But the difference is that you can spell scepticism


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> So you think UK old age pensioners in Spain are likely to see their pensions withheld sometime within say the next 20 years? Should Baldilocks be in fear?
> 
> To be serious I made my post because I think Baldilocks is an example of why people in similar positions should consider spain. He is happy, has a stable income, and although small a contributor to Spain.
> 
> ...


How can anyone forecast what will happen in the next twenty days or months, let alone twenty years....

It is unlikely that Spanish pensioners will see their pensions 'withheld' any more than British pensioners will see theirs withheld. There is no suggestion that this would happen or reason why it should although it is true that people will be expected to contribute more to their pensions, chiefly because we are living longer.
Suggesting Spanish pensioners should be'in fear' is frankly scare-mongering.
The situation is bad enough as it is without the hyperbole.
Do you really think a British pensioner on basic state pension with SERPS perhaps would really be better off in Spain? I think you are wrong. You have to compare like with like.
UK pensioners on this kind of income are leaving Spain in droves precisely because of the uncertainty you mentioned earlier....uncertainty over a fluctuating exchange rate.
The basic state pension in the UK is just over the £500 mark...no-one in the UK exists on this of course because they would at this income level be entitled to housing benefit, completely free medical care, extra allowances for heating and many other allowances if needed. So for people on basic pension plus SERP it's better to stay in the UK.

I don't understand your point about the British entrepreneur. If anyone can create jobs for Spanish people they should be welcomed, surely? It doesn't matter what nationality they are.
But British workers coming to Spain and seeking jobs at a time when over 5 million Spaniards are unemployed is something I deplore and have posted about many times.

There is no need for 'sensitivity' when stating facts. 
We should also bear in mind that whilst 25% of Spaniards are unemployed and many in desperate circumstances, 75% of working people currently have employment. This may be low-paid and precarious in nature but nevertheless the majority are currently in work.


If you look at another thread about how the recession is affecting various areas you will read that some towns are barely affected, others severely.

We are in the middle of a very grave and severe economic crisis which will not run its course very soon. But we have to consider the whole picture and not just parts of it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Feeling a little more cheerful today are we Mary?
> 
> No.... my ribs still hurt.
> 
> ...


Those who elected Thatcher should have read the small print before voting....
The prime cause of the current casino economy with market rule over state governments can be traced to her deregulation of the financial institutions: the infamous 'Big Bang' of 1986.

Big Bang was the right expression...we all got royally shafted except for the champagne-swilling city shysters and ex-barrow boy 'loads-a-money' traders.

But the people elected four successive Tory Governments and enabled this to happen- aided of course by the Trots in the Labour Party at that time- and as they say, the voice of the people is the voice of God....


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Suggesting Spanish pensioners should be'in fear' is frankly scare-mongering.
> The situation is bad enough as it is without the hyperbole.
> Do you really think a British pensioner on basic state pension with SERPS perhaps would really be better off in Spain? I think you are wrong. You have to compare like with like.


Such agression Mary - cool . As far as I'm aware no one suggested Spaniards should be worried about their pensions. And the suggestion was that it might be good if people in Baldilocks position considered the spanish option.

As for living on £500 in the UK Baldilocks has given us his spanish budget - thus I'd say for the right sort of retired brits spain is worth a look 

Have a G&T Mary, it will make you feel better


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Such agression Mary - cool . As far as I'm aware no one suggested Spaniards should be worried about their pensions. And the suggestion was that it might be good if people in Baldilocks position considered the spanish option.
> 
> As for living on £500 in the UK Baldilocks has given us his spanish budget - thus I'd say for the right sort of retired brits spain is worth a look
> 
> Have a G&T Mary, it will make you feel better


It's called responding to argument, Nigel, not aggression. 

You wrote: 

_ So you think UK old age pensioners in Spain are likely to see their pensions withheld sometime within say the next 20 years? Should Baldilocks be in fear?_ 


If you don't want to be misunderstood, it's best to be more precise. 

It's also not clear to me what you mean by 'people in Baldilock's position should consider the Spanish option' by which I'm guessing you mean that a pensioner couple with only £500 to spend after housing costs should consider emigrating to Spain.

I would most certainly advise against that. Don't you think that knowing that you have the option of housing benefit, 100% free medical care, help with heating bills, home help for those unable to care for themselves available in the UK a couple with that relatively small amount to spend would be daft to emigrate to Spain, especially if such a move entailed selling their UK home.... 

Have a pint of Badgers, Nigel. It will help you think more clearly


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It's called responding to argument, Nigel, not aggression.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> ...


Mary I can only asume you deliberately choose to miss interpret everything anyone posts simply to give opportunity to pump your political stance. 

Must admit I am a bit sad that you say that there is no need for sensitivity when stating facts!

bye


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## Tippy (Nov 1, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I have zero faith or trust in HM Treasury with the current Chancellor in charge, Nigel...and even the UK Treasury is at the mercy of global markets which determine its bond yields.
> 
> This is the dilemma faced by all European Governments...growth is desperately needed but at the merest hint that public money will be used to kickstart employment the markets react by making the cost of borrowing unsustainable.
> The only other source of public funding - the taxpayer - is a well that is running dry.
> ...


Surely there is another alternative.The people with the money won't invest in countries they have no faith in. The governments can't invest because they/we haven't got the money and to my mind they couldn't run a p--s up in a brewery.. People will only invest where they know it will be worth their while . and where the treasury won't penalise them. Small businesses still find it hard to access funds to either start up or expand. Business angels and peer to peer lending should be promoted more. A better form of PFA s should be utilised , not one where the government don't get themselves in hock the way they have been doing.It should be made easier to employ people without as much re tape as there is now , and yes to be able to let employees go when it doesn't work out. I know the unions are up in arms about this , but it's better to have a job , even for a day than to have no job at all. From personal experience I know this to be true. People on benefit should have to attend work duties to get them into the routine of getting up in the morning and doing something , anything so that the rest of the workforce don't feel so bad about paying into a system to finance people who have no financial incentive to work from cradle to grave. Slave labour people cry, no it's the rest of the workforce who are enslaved. They need to be appreciated more instead of put upon by a government which wastes our taxes. And make no mistake whichever party that gets into power it's always the government that wins. I think that anyone who wants to be a politician should be automatically disqualified. They seem only intent on power, it's the same with footballers they seem to only want to do it for the money. Greed rules. When is this merry go round going to grind to a halt. Or is it already doing that and we can't really see the obvious. The writing is on the wall, we ignore it at our peril. Haven't we got any inspirational leaders who can inspire us to great things. Oh dear where's my medicine , I need a lie down.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

At last a message that doesn't mention baldilocks. leave him alone - he's living the dream on €600 a month.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tippy said:


> Surely there is another alternative.The people with the money won't invest in countries they have no faith in. The governments can't invest because they/we haven't got the money and to my mind they couldn't run a p--s up in a brewery.. People will only invest where they know it will be worth their while . and where the treasury won't penalise them. Small businesses still find it hard to access funds to either start up or expand. Business angels and peer to peer lending should be promoted more. A better form of PFA s should be utilised , not one where the government don't get themselves in hock the way they have been doing.It should be made easier to employ people without as much re tape as there is now , and yes to be able to let employees go when it doesn't work out. I know the unions are up in arms about this , but it's better to have a job , even for a day than to have no job at all. From personal experience I know this to be true. People on benefit should have to attend work duties to get them into the routine of getting up in the morning and doing something , anything so that the rest of the workforce don't feel so bad about paying into a system to finance people who have no financial incentive to work from cradle to grave. Slave labour people cry, no it's the rest of the workforce who are enslaved. They need to be appreciated more instead of put upon by a government which wastes our taxes. And make no mistake whichever party that gets into power it's always the government that wins. I think that anyone who wants to be a politician should be automatically disqualified. They seem only intent on power, it's the same with footballers they seem to only want to do it for the money. Greed rules. When is this merry go round going to grind to a halt. Or is it already doing that and we can't really see the obvious. The writing is on the wall, we ignore it at our peril. Haven't we got any inspirational leaders who can inspire us to great things. Oh dear where's my medicine , I need a lie down.


I agree with all of that apart from one point.....which I'll respond to at the end of this post.

Yes, I think people in receipt of benefits should be expected to do something in return for what in the UK is a fairly generous welfare system - which has ceased to be a support in times of need but has become a life-style choice for far too many people.
Yes, I agree that there is too much red tape inhibiting job creation, especially in Spain where levels of redundancy pay are still among the highest in the EU.
Unions often forget that they do not represent more than a minority of the workforce - and I say this as a life-long union activist.
It's daft for Union leaders in the UK to talk about the rage and frustration of their members when only a minority can be bothered to vote in a ballot for strike action as we saw in the recent NUT ballot where less than 30% of the members responded and voted for a strike.
Yes, SMEs and PYMEs need finance - we had a business in the UK and know that well. But the UK Government owns major stakes in most banks and could force them to lend - although we should remember that no-one lends to bad risks.
Personally I think all banks should be nationalised as liquidity is the oil of business and all of our lives in every way.
The major financial investors aren't private individuals any more, though. Your and my pension funds are in the hands of investment companies. The days when capitalists were fat cigar-smoking old men in fur coats are long gone.
Now where I disagree.....I think that dismissing politicians as greedy, power-seeking etc. is wrong and dangerous.
It is simply untrue that all politicians are corrupt, stupid, and so on. They are people like you and me -I was a politician for three decades of my life - and just as with doctors, teachers, plumbers, street sweepers and the population as a whole, some are less than perfect specimens of humanity.
In all my involvement with elected politicians at all levels from parish councillors to MPs I never came across anyone who was corrupt and only a few who were 'greedy' in that they took every allowance they were entitled to inspite of being fairly wealthy. But that's what a lot of people do, sadly. The people I worked with were more likely to be worse off for their involvement in politics, especially if they worked in the private sector.
I personally turned down lucrative promotions as there was no way I could combine a more demanding job with my unpaid political work. 
I met politicians who I thought were not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer and politicians whose views I disagreed with but none that were dishonest.
They were just people doing their best to help others.
The kind of states where there are no politics and no politicians are dictatorships....the fascist and socialist states. If we keep talking down politicians who is to run the country? Businessmen? The army? 
I think we have to accept that anything human will be less than perfect and that we will never see a utopia at any time in the future history of the world.

Btw, nice to have a discussion that's rooted in fact and with views that can be sensibly considered and responded to.
I find it interesting that anyone could know my political stance as frankly I no longer have one, apart from being hostile to all ideologies whether from right or left, preferring a pragmatic approach focusing on the art of the possible.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Those smug frogs are next on the list:
Another domino falls as Hollande pushes France into depression - Telegraph


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> At last a message that doesn't mention baldilocks. leave him alone - he's living the dream on €600 a month.


Thanks. We keep ourselves very much in check with regard to any form of profligate spending and are enjoying the luxury of being able to save, Yes ACTUALLY SAVE and not keep paddling just to stay afloat. Currently we are putting money by for redoing our roof next year and updating our car.

That was what we dreamt of doing and it IS what we are doing - living free of money worries for the first time in our lives.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Thanks. We keep ourselves very much in check with regard to any form of profligate spending and are enjoying the luxury of being able to save, Yes ACTUALLY SAVE and not keep paddling just to stay afloat. Currently we are putting money by for redoing our roof next year and updating our car.
> 
> That was what we dreamt of doing and it IS what we are doing - living free of money worries for the first time in our lives.


We are unashamed unrepentant SKINs...'spending the kids inheritance now'.
My son and dil don't need any money from us, they earn well and my dil's father is very well-off and in his eighties...I don't really approve of inherited wealth, it often kills ambition and drive.

But we are not profligate and we both keep a strict watch over our spending.
Unlike you, Baldy, we own no property as you know and our rent, utilities and fuel for the Disco take up all of my income. Sandra pays for groceries,Azor's maintenance, 'big' purchases like new sheets and such like and eating out which we do once a month, roughly. We have a beer/coffee out at least once a week.
But I wouldn't describe us as big spenders.

I try not to dip into the capital I have, just to use up my income. We have no money worries and although we often say how lucky we are I often think again and point out that as well as luck we both worked hard for over sixty -five years between us in responsible jobs and Sandra gave employment directly and indirectly to many people.

When we get too old and decrepit to maintain our current house we'll move into a 'nice' apartment probably in Estepona, in the centre of town so we can totter out to shops, bars and restaurants.

We planned our lives as there was a certain predictability if not certainty in the past as to how things would turn out. But I feel sorry for young people today who face a very unpredictable future and are obliged by circumstance to take each day as it comes.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Those smug frogs are next on the list:
> Another domino falls as Hollande pushes France into depression - Telegraph


An interesting piece, Baldy, albeit from a right-wing viewpoint.

The French 'Socialist' Party needs to wake up and smell the coffee. The 75% tax rate on higher earners will achieve nothing other than to encourage the exodus of the very people France needs to create a dynamic economy.....the IT professionals, the risk-takers, the job creators.

The public sector is much too large. It doesn't generate wealth, it merely recycles it but it's ironic that Le Penn miniscule is advocating Keynesian policies.

Or is it....someone, can't remember who, wrote that the people will not accept socialism without a hefty dose of nationalism. That is true of all far-right regimes...always an element of socialism in their policy mix.

That's why parties like the Front Nationale, True Finns, BNP and their ilk are so dangerous. Working people are deeply hostile to the abstraction of internationalism which is why the far right is much more of a threat Europe-wide than the far left who are mere pests, like Jehovah's Witnesses.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Working people are deeply hostile to the abstraction of internationalism which is why the far right is much more of a threat Europe-wide than the far left who are mere pests, like Jehovah's Witnesses.



We get the latter round here occasionally (last time they filled my dumb-bunny of a suegra's arms up with umpteen pieces of Cat. Blue recycling material before I came home and kicked them out) So you reckon that they are mere pests, can you recommend a suitable sprinklable/easy to apply pesticide that would be suitable. Daren't let the suegra look up that sort of information. 

Last time she asked a question like that it went "I've been collecting cooking recipes for years and they are getting rather untidy. Can you recommend a good binder?" She got lots of recommendations for the likes of rice, egg, arrowroot, etc.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> We get the latter round here occasionally (last time they filled my dumb-bunny of a suegra's arms up with umpteen pieces of Cat. Blue recycling material before I came home and kicked them out) So you reckon that they are mere pests, can you recommend a suitable sprinklable/easy to apply pesticide that would be suitable. Daren't let the suegra look up that sort of information.
> 
> Last time she asked a question like that it went "I've been collecting cooking recipes for years and they are getting rather untidy. Can you recommend a good binder?" She got lots of recommendations for the likes of rice, egg, arrowroot, etc.


Once years ago I was trying on a new pair of rather tight jeans when a JW couple rang the bell of our cottage. I could see they were JWs so I ignored them.
They then peered in at our bay window, saw me and tapped on it whereupon our dog, a large GSD, went beserk, barked and leapt at the window, knocking over a jardiniere and a large potted plant which was in it. Earth, shards of porcelain and leaves went everywhere. I was stuck half in the tight jeans - luckily modestly covered - but the effort to get them up broke the zip.
A red mist swam before my eyes. I opened the door and the male JW pointed to the female and said 'This woman has come to tell you of the joy to be found in the Lord' or something like that.
Forgetting the fact I was a Councillor, respected Teacher and leading citizen of the town I lost all control and screeched 'This woman is pissed off with you lot pestering decent people so **** off out of my house and garden or I'll set the dog on you!!'
I was never troubled again by JWs .....

SWMBO is rather more genteel, I suspect....


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