# Spain - The Facts!



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

It's The Escuela of Hard Knocks you know!

People deserting their properties everywhere and returning to the UK having lost everything.

Relationships breaking up (we're talking 20+ years ones too) including women leaving husbands for other _women._

Sudden deaths, suicides, and serious illness.

Brits getting ripped off, and their lives made a misery, by other Brits.

Landgrabs and illegal builds.

Very questionable justice system at local levels.

Mass unenployment.

Major problems with the language and cultural differences.

Make no mistake.....It's a man's life in Modern Spain! And there's been more casualties here than in Vietnam!

It's now reached the stage where the arrivals areas in all the major airports have signs saying "No one here gets out alive".....with The Doors inspired soundtrack to "Apocalypse Now" playing continuously!

Personally I wouldn't listen to the ramblings of a dead fat guy in a bathtub anyway....but hey.....I'm not telling you anything you don't already know!


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## john j (Jan 20, 2009)

Xtreme,
You have a point! but nearly all of the things you have pointed out happen on a regular basis in the UK. I came to Spain 7 years ago with the cash from 2 homes in the UK, we have lost the lot and now rent in Madrid previously living in Alicante. This is happening day in day out now in blighty, Spain is'nt the cause of this sorrow. The Brits who come here to live come with a relaxed holiday atitude ( me included!!) and their rose tinted specks, if only i knew then what i know now!!!! Its a hard road when your a foolish trusting Brit!
In my opinion you have to treat it the same as the Uk, come here hard nosed, trust no one, speak the language and work hard, Spain is'nt one big holiday resort! Its England with sol!!
Id choose Spain over the UK even if its cost me dearly!

John j


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

XTreme said:


> It's The Escuela of Hard Knocks you know!
> 
> People deserting their properties everywhere and returning to the UK having lost everything.
> 
> ...



Aye, sounds just like the UK

"Apocalypse Now" eh .......... does that mean, when we come over in April, I have to drive the van through Spain with "Ride of the Valkyries" blasting out at gale force ten? ................. cool!


Doggy


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

You remember the Marlon Brando character in "Apocalypse Now" doggy? That's Steve Hall that is!


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

XTreme said:


> You remember the Marlon Brando character in "Apocalypse Now" doggy? That's Steve Hall that is!


So the rumours are true!


Doggy


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

XTreme - I sometimes wonder why I love you so!! 

John - so sorry to hear of your plight. I get slandered, libeled and get called words I never heard in the bible for giving people facts - facts that they do not want to hear and yet they still arrive with no Spanish, no job, no focus and USUALLY no chance!

I have heard two horror stories today. Yet as I was learning of yet another marriage break-up I heard myself saying to myself, "Why am I not surprised?" 18 months here, Speak NO Spanish, know every bar in town and in 18 months he's done nothing more than a couple of painting jobs and a few dodgy airport runs. He got caught by the Guardia in a UK plated van with tools, paint etc. No ITV, no insurance etc etc Van impounded."

Next!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

About all these relationship break up's Steve.....what the hell acts as the catalyst for it all?

Yes, in some cases there's a third party involved....but in the majority of cases there isn't. Do people just go crazy or something?


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

XTreme said:


> About all these relationship break up's Steve.....what the hell acts as the catalyst for it all?
> 
> 
> ++Alcohol





XTreme said:


> Yes, in some cases there's a third party involved....but in the majority of cases there isn't. Do people just go crazy or something?


++Another HUGE reason is that people who have been together for perhaps many years have almost lived in parallel worlds. They bump into each other for a couple of hours in the evening, struggle through the weekend together and perhaps have two weeks in Rhodes every year. They have big circles of friends -often separate groups - and family and work contacts. 

They come here - and are usually together 24/7. They know nobody, they have nowhere to "hide" and after 20 years of wedded bliss (oxymoron) he thinks, "Does she take sugar?" and she thinks "Did he really have that beer-belly when I fell in love with him?" (or vice versa?LOL)


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Interesting points Steve.....I've often wondered why.

And you know what I don't get? The Brit blokes who leave their wives for _another_ Brit woman! WTF?

That I find bewildering.....and you don't need me to tell you the reason why!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

"And you know what I don't get? The Brit blokes who leave their wives for another Brit woman! WTF?

That I find bewildering.....and you don't need me to tell you the reason why!"


I can't be accused of that!!


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## john j (Jan 20, 2009)

Doggy! if your coming in April, ADVICE! Learn Spanish now the more you know the better chance you have of being 1 step in front of the other Brits and then you have only 44 million Spaniards to deal with, lol! Seriously it will be a big advantage. Remember 13.9 per cent unemployed, i run a small carpentry buisness in Madrid it seems Spain has fallen of a cliff!!!

Regards

John j


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

john j said:


> i run a small carpentry buisness in Madrid it seems Spain has fallen of a cliff!!!


Sounds like you need a nice website and a donkey John!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

XTreme said:


> Sounds like you need a nice website and a donkey John!



I can recommend XTreme as a premier supplier of .....

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donkeys LOL


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

john j said:


> Doggy! if your coming in April, ADVICE! Learn Spanish now the more you know the better chance you have of being 1 step in front of the other Brits and then you have only 44 million Spaniards to deal with, lol! Seriously it will be a big advantage. Remember 13.9 per cent unemployed, i run a small carpentry buisness in Madrid it seems Spain has fallen of a cliff!!!
> 
> Regards
> 
> John j


Ta for that .......advice is always welcome
We're lucky in the fact that we're both retired and will exist on pension & savings so the work thing isn't a problem. Having said that who knows what will happen next with interest & exchange rates (anybody got a crystal ball?) so I might have to get some gigs (I'm one of them wierdo music types) but as things stand we'll be ok.
We're both trying to improve our holiday Spanish and our goal is to be able to hold an intelligent conversation (could be tricky in my case!) at the normal warp factor ten ............ it costs nowt to dream eh


Doggy


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> ++Another HUGE reason is that people who have been together for perhaps many years have almost lived in parallel worlds. They bump into each other for a couple of hours in the evening, struggle through the weekend together and perhaps have two weeks in Rhodes every year. They have big circles of friends -often separate groups - and family and work contacts.
> 
> They come here - and are usually together 24/7. They know nobody, they have nowhere to "hide" and after 20 years of wedded bliss (oxymoron) he thinks, "Does she take sugar?" and she thinks "Did he really have that beer-belly when I fell in love with him?" (or vice versa?LOL)


This is a KNOWN CAUSE for the increase in Spanish couples separating after long summer hols together. It has nothing to do with expats or Spain. It does have a lot to do with misplaced expectations.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

john j said:


> i run a small carpentry buisness in Madrid it seems Spain has fallen of a cliff!!!


So it's not just me then! - I have NEVER seen folk so frightened to spend money. I'm not frivolous by nature, but it's getting to be an issue to get folk to "go out". I confess I'm more reluctant than before - but more because I'm now teetotal - and drinking Coke in pubs just seems "silly".

What is however nice is that we're starting to get invites to friends homes - whereas before we'd always meet in a bar or something.

John - Where (aprox) in Madrid? - I'm out about 40kms due West.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> "Apocalypse Now" eh .......... does that mean, when we come over in April, I have to drive the van through Spain with "Ride of the Valkyries" blasting out at gale force ten? ................. cool!


No - I'd recommend Samuel Barbers "Adagio for Strings". From Platoon. Or better still get a GOOD Paco de Lucia compilation set.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

*two things .......*

Steve, Xtreme et al .....

Two things - I agree with the comments on possible reasons for a higher number of couples splitting up - although we have made axquaintances here in Spain, and met lovely people at work etc - it seems more difficult to have "real friends" so couples do end up together 24/7 and rely on each for absolutely everything - rather than being able to share it with other people .. THIS DOES NOT always result in separation! for some like my husband and myself it actually brought us closer together because we learnt a lot more about each other and enjoyed supporting each other etc ....

and SECONDLY ... Its pees me off slightly when I read your comments about why do men who split up with their wives then go on to get together with another British female .... in fact it pees me off enormously! If I do say so myself - I think Im a pretty good catch! and yes I wish I had olive skin as opposed to my very British "whiteness"!!!! but other than that I dont think I, or a lot of other British women, should be classed as not attractive, valued or warranted as a good choice!

I still turn heads matey at 46 ... and I know my husband think Im pretty fab!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Think that you will find my partner is lily-whiter than anybody you know. She is Norwegian! 
Her daughter can't go out in the daylight in summer for fear of turning the same coolour as her ginger hair!

Don't get upset about XTreme - he has this obsession with chasing sub-30 españolitas 
The first words he learned in Spanish were "unrequited love". Now that he knows your age, you are safe! 

Glad to hear that it has worked for you - as I say constantly, "Expatshire is a land of extremes. You can't be neutral to it or neutral in it. It forces emotions." Sadly that means that a lot of people who can just jog along in Farnham struggle in Fuengirola. Those who did not think they had a problem in Tottenham found they did in Torrevieja. With my ex-wife, we "hoped" that coming here would resolve our situation but within 12 months it was clear it made it worse. 20 years later I have seen that so many times it hurts. 

I got this email yesterday from somebody I have "spoken to" a few times on these boards. Don't really know her but I have understood that she has been through hell. I have "x-ed" out bits but you get the drift. 

"Steve, biggest mistake I ever made moving here. Many of the people I have met live such poor lives and everything is done on the cheap, such as having to save up to buy a pair of socks. In my world, people save up for TV's, cars, ect. not cheap essential items and I was becoming part of their world and absolutely hated it. The estate agency I was working for didn't have one client in 3 months, really bad. I have left all my worldy goods in storage and am now in xxxxx for a couple of days before flying back to England on Friday, skint, homeless and jobless. " 

Not much more I can add.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Its difficult to get "tone" across in email / posting so dont believe I was on my high horse or having a "loud" shout at anyone .... I just find it irritating for people to stereotype or make assumptions that everyone is the same ...

I agree with what you are saying - if we were in the UK now Im sure we would be struggling as we are here sometimes .... the positives I take at the moment are that the 4 plus years we have been here which have "pushed" us closer together and made us stronger in my opinion - will help us get through some of the crap thats happening at the moment - whereas if we were in the UK and hadnt had the "togetherness" experience we may be struggling as couple - who knows! 

We also have people we know whose personal lives are suffering as a consequence of everything else .... all you can do is keep battling on, working and trying hard - nobody else is going to do it for you.

We may or may not come out of this smiling - but I´ll be damned if I´ll spend the next year or so being bloody miserable every day! so Im going to try to be as I always am - which is hopeful with a smile on my face !!!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Sounds like my type of woman! Sadly you are married (house rules!) and of course you don't talk like the chef from the muppet show. 

Glad it's working for you here - I think I understand that you both work. I am sure that helps as you are not faced with the biggest decision of the day syndrome, "Fred, Shall we go The Red Lion or Fat Jacks for breakfast?"


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> SI dont think I, or a lot of other British women, should be classed as not attractive, valued or warranted as a good choice!
> 
> I still turn heads matey at 46 ... and I know my husband think Im pretty fab!


There are one or two about in reasonably good nick.....jojo is one of them!

However there are some real munters about you know....toothless, tattooed, metal sticking out their faces, overhanging gut, terrible dress sense etc. Not a pretty picture!

But let's have a photo Sue.....and I'll give you an assessment!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

XTreme you KNOW the rules. 

You stick to under 30s!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

not one to shy away from a challenge - I get a photo sorted on here tomorrow .... and no - no tatoos - no false anything - just a growing up naturally 40 something yorkshire lass who is comfortable with herself! ....


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> XTreme you KNOW the rules.
> 
> You stick to under 30s!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Ahhh, Yorkshire. Sounds better all the time - God's Chosen County.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> not one to shy away from a challenge - I get a photo sorted on here tomorrow .... and no - no tatoos - no false anything - just a growing up naturally 40 something yorkshire lass who is comfortable with herself! ....


You don't happen to have any French Maid's outfits do you Sue?


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

ha ha ha! not one that Ive been photographed in!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> the biggest decision of the day syndrome, "Fred, Shall we go The Red Lion or Fat Jacks for breakfast?"


Tough one - What would sir recommend?

I have enough issue with "Coffee Yes/No?" not least because I have to make it at 6AM. No means a lie-in 'til almost 7.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> ha ha ha! not one that Ive been photographed in!


Ask Steve Hall if you can borrow his then Sue!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I can always rely on you to make me laugh. You remember I loaned it to you months ago and never got it back


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> I can always rely on you to make me laugh. You remember I loaned it to you months ago and never got it back


I sent it back via Donkey Express!


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*What instead?????*

Every time I think I may have a good country to try to relo to,(I want to leave USA) I hear something bad -- last time it was arrests in Dubai, now this in Spain. IS there a decent country with national healthcare where a person with no degree (recently online I was told I have no education, but I thought no degree not = no education) can get a semi-skilled job such as entry-level clerical? Oh btw, I'm 56 but in USA they're not supposed to know your age, but I guess once again I'm back in 1975. Yes I realize I'm looking for a place other than USA.  Oh btw, I think I'll probably relo only if I can take my 35 year old fiance (or husband -- we can relo with either status). Thanks for any answers.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Caravan2ABetterPlace said:


> Every time I think I may have a good country to try to relo to,(I want to leave USA) I hear something bad -- last time it was arrests in Dubai, now this in Spain. IS there a decent country with national healthcare where a person with no degree (recently online I was told I have no education, but I thought no degree not = no education) can get a semi-skilled job such as entry-level clerical? Oh btw, I'm 56 but in USA they're not supposed to know your age, but I guess once again I'm back in 1975. Yes I realize I'm looking for a place other than USA.  Oh btw, I think I'll probably relo only if I can take my 35 year old fiance (or husband -- we can relo with either status). Thanks for any answers.


Does Canada meet some of that? - A lot of folk I know who are looking for a change - seem to be looking at Canada.

Spain btw has always been a harsh place to live if UNLESS you have steady reasonable income.


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## raininspain2 (Jan 5, 2009)

*What is considered "steady" reasonable income to live in Spain?*



chris(madrid) said:


> Does Canada meet some of that? - A lot of folk I know who are looking for a change - seem to be looking at Canada.
> 
> Spain btw has always been a harsh place to live if UNLESS you have steady reasonable income.


I am nearing the date (June 2009) when I MUST decide where to resettle at least for the next 6 months and I was thinking of Spain. But now, reading the doom and gloom messages in this forum, I am in a panic. What do you consider a steady, reasonable income to be able to live in the not-too-expensive part of Spain for at least 6 months to one year? I plan to live 3-6 months at a time in different countries. Would $2000 steady income do it? I really need some down-to-earth advice. I want to live in a fairly decent place with reasonable quality living (bar scene not a top priority, but enriching activities yes). I plan to go back to the U.S. after 3 years of traveling and living abroad.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

raininspain2 said:


> I am nearing the date (June 2009) when I MUST decide where to resettle at least for the next 6 months and I was thinking of Spain. But now, reading the doom and gloom messages in this forum, I am in a panic. What do you consider a steady, reasonable income to be able to live in the not-too-expensive part of Spain for at least 6 months to one year? I plan to live 3-6 months at a time in different countries. Would $2000 steady income do it? I really need some down-to-earth advice. I want to live in a fairly decent place with reasonable quality living (bar scene not a top priority, but enriching activities yes). I plan to go back to the U.S. after 3 years of traveling and living abroad.


I´m sure $2000 a month would be fine, it depends how many of you there are? But that should tide you over ok

Its not so much doom and gloom as expectations. There are very few countries around especially in this economic climate where you could walk in without speaking the language or knowing anything about it and expect to get a job, Spain is no exception

jo xxx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

If you had 2000 USD/Euro guaranteed from pension/investments etc you could be very comfortable here. If you THINK you will get a job on that type of money I am afraid you will have to re-think.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

raininspain2 said:


> Would $2000 steady income do it?


This will depend entirely on the exchange rate. And this changes daily - it's already the cause of distress to many who did their maths when their currency was strong - and now it is not.

Live rates at 2009.03.02 06:17:33 UTC
2,000.00 USD = 1,588.02 EUR minus some bank charges at a guess.

imo - very borderline. 

2000EUROS is something else.


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*Canada and Cost in Spain*



chris(madrid) said:


> Does Canada meet some of that? - A lot of folk I know who are looking for a change - seem to be looking at Canada.
> 
> Spain btw has always been a harsh place to live if UNLESS you have steady reasonable income.


Chris, Canada is one of the considerations. My fiance is interested in caregiving but in spite of Canada's claim (at least on the Internet - it's about the only source I have ) of having a caregiving shortage, it seems, that at least now, there is a glut. In fact in August I became friends with a caregiver from Canada who just lost her job and has been looking for a month for another! Other than this, from the Internet, Canada seems like just a lesser problem than USA, including with the visa laws. Sounds like it's very hard to get a work visa there -- again -- must have a "shortage" skill, which I don't think we have. I also read online that in the past, Canada had a retirement visa but no longer. Regardless, the most highly developed countries seem to have visa laws that screen out rather than invite. I do expect to have social security and pension income of approx. $30,000/ yr. by the time I'm 65. I own property now and would only want to rent as a last resort. My only "vice" is that once in a while I have a cosmetic procedure. Also I spend a lot of $ on heating expenses because I'm very cold sensitive but I guess that's irrelevant in Spain. To make matters worse, I have a back disability which also could keep me from working again. I have experience as a hypnotherapist but wondering if lack of a degree would have me "discriminated" against or worst yet, make working in this field illegal in what otherwise would be the magic country. Well anyway, it seems like it will take magic to get us safely and securely elsewhere. I probably would want to return to the USA as needed for medical care and within reason, as often as needed to satisfy ::::smirk::: the visa laws. My fiance is from Nepal and I told him that living there is a last resort ...too bad it could possibly be our only hope, again because of all I've heard about the visa laws. I don't need many luxuries but I do need decent care and protection, similar to what I have in the USA. I'd like a good source of info on visa laws along with the general low-down on what it takes to stay in each country.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Caravan2ABetterPlace said:


> Also I spend a lot of $ on heating expenses because I'm very cold sensitive but I guess that's irrelevant in Spain.


Erm - It most certainly is NOT. Many Spanish properties (especially where expats tend to go) are NOT designed for winter living. Poor insulation is common - and ime DAMP is an issue as often as not then. 

Jojo can maybe give you better averages - but when I was unemployed and we kept the house warm all day - it was NOT a cheap experience. 

The only SAFE option is the Canary Islands


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

It seems I´ve a reputation for mooaning about the cold here LOL

SPAIN IS COLD! Dont let anyone tell you otherwise!!!!! I feel the cold terribly and It has been cold here since early October, I was scraping ice off my car through January, lots of areas around me have had heavy snow (although we escaped it here!?), and it seems unlikely that its gonna warm up until April! Yes there are days when the sunshines and its beautiiful outside, in fact on days like that I go outside to warm up!!! And once the sun goes down its cold. The houses here have cold tiles everywhere and are not insulated as a rule, so trying to heat them up is not only impossible, but horrendously expensive! I have to ration the use of our electric heaters and the log fire struggles!

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

*brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!*

I agree completely with both Jo and Chris (Madrid) .... dont be fooled into thinking Spain has a pleasant climate all year round! We live on the Costa del Sol and there isnt much "sol" at the moment ... and hasnt been for some months really. We live in a brand new "modern" apartment and its freezing! tiled floors, big windows, no insulation, no central heating and when the air con is on it runs up a huge bill !!!! Think Ive said this before but be prepared to be sitting around for months in very attractive wooly socks, fleeces and leggings (now theres an admission I thought I would never make!)

Dont know if its just me but having been here for 5 years now, the winters just seem to get longer and longer each year - the summer is fabulous of course but thats only really between May and September ... pleasant in some of the remaining months but definitely not comfortable to be indoors where it feels colder than it is outside!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

There's been a Spanish saying (about Madrid anyway) for ages - "9 meses de invierno - 3 de infierno" - 9 months of winter and 3 of HELL. A bit unfair maybe - But summer does sort of SWITCH ON in Mid June - and chill down mid September. The jump through Spring and Autumn is brief (maybe a fortnight).

In general I'd say we start using some form of heat in mid-late October/early Nov and still make use of some form of heating off and on until mid May. Outside deep winter - this is small heaters in bathrooms etc - plus the odd fire if the weather is damp. But we're generally not home during weekdays except evenings - and are often out and about at the weekend. We had a spell - early on - of using about €400/month in GAS. Improving the glazing - we now have DOUBLE-doubleglazing plus sealing the chimeny with a log burner (even when it's not lit) cut the bills by 50%.

Coastal areas are a little less binary. But anybody expecting to see 25º often in Winter is in for a bit of a shock.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

It's a typical UK Bank Holiday Monday here on the Costa del Sol today. 

Rain, drizzle, grey skies etc etc .........BUT tomorrow will be lovely (I hope!)


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Afraid not Steve ... well according to the 10 day weather forecast for Marbella its not! I checked it yesterday and rain, rain, rain right up until Saturday - weekend looks ok - and then rain next week up until Wednesday which is when my "10 day forecast" ran out!!!!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Oh well, I can tuck myself up in bed with dreams of Ana


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*Spain vs Canary Islands*



chris(madrid) said:


> Erm - It most certainly is NOT. Many Spanish properties (especially where expats tend to go) are NOT designed for winter living. Poor insulation is common - and ime DAMP is an issue as often as not then.
> 
> Jojo can maybe give you better averages - but when I was unemployed and we kept the house warm all day - it was NOT a cheap experience.
> 
> The only SAFE option is the Canary Islands



Chris, thanks for still another reply. Depends on whether I can get into a place more suitable than Spain. Hopefully I could find out insider type info to avoid the usual expat traps. This winter we're spending approx. $600/mo. for gas and electric (gas heat). Rest of the year it averages about $350/mo. This is PA where it's cold or chilly most of the year. BUT we do have a sizeable house, at least 2500 sf, and accd. to mom, who lives with me, it's not well insulated. I've never heard anyone recommend Canary Islands as a good place for an American to live but I do know in life there are overlooked 'gems' of all types, all over. Soooo, I'll check it out, compliments of you so thanks again for your help. Sherry


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*Spain -- so what's good about it??? *



jojo said:


> It seems I´ve a reputation for mooaning about the cold here LOL
> 
> SPAIN IS COLD! Dont let anyone tell you otherwise!!!!! I feel the cold terribly and It has been cold here since early October, I was scraping ice off my car through January, lots of areas around me have had heavy snow (although we escaped it here!?), and it seems unlikely that its gonna warm up until April! Yes there are days when the sunshines and its beautiiful outside, in fact on days like that I go outside to warm up!!! And once the sun goes down its cold. The houses here have cold tiles everywhere and are not insulated as a rule, so trying to heat them up is not only impossible, but horrendously expensive! I have to ration the use of our electric heaters and the log fire struggles!
> 
> Jo xxx



Jo, glad I scrolled down to see your post. Chris said you'd know more...So I take it that it's similar to here in PA, and probably not as warm as in Southern Virginia.
I'd like to know where you all are from originally, why Spain, and how long you all going to be there. Particularly what advantages, if any, offset the disadvantages. 

Everyone is good on this forum. I should know, I've been all over the Internet (it seems).  Sherry


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

This Winter has been the first time in my life that I've ever had chilblains!


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## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

Caravan2ABetterPlace said:


> Chris, thanks for still another reply. Depends on whether I can get into a place more suitable than Spain. Hopefully I could find out insider type info to avoid the usual expat traps. This winter we're spending approx. $600/mo. for gas and electric (gas heat). Rest of the year it averages about $350/mo. This is PA where it's cold or chilly most of the year. BUT we do have a sizeable house, at least 2500 sf, and accd. to mom, who lives with me, it's not well insulated. I've never heard anyone recommend Canary Islands as a good place for an American to live but I do know in life there are overlooked 'gems' of all types, all over. Soooo, I'll check it out, compliments of you so thanks again for your help.  Sherry


The only problem there is that property in the Canary Islands can be a lot more expensive to buy or rent.
If you are looking to rent in Spain why not try and find a property that is inclusive of the bills as this can work out a lot cheeper.

Hope it all works out for you.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Caravan2ABetterPlace said:


> I'd like to know where you all are from originally, why Spain, and how long you all going to be there. Particularly what advantages, if any, offset the disadvantages.


I'm here because England is full!! I found it very claustrophobic, too many people, traffic jams, nanny state telling me what I could and couldnt do, violent crime in many towns and cities, binge drinking culture, the climate, the overall greyness......

Spain for the most part is wonderful, (apart from the winter ), its hot, sunny, relaxing and a sense of space and freedom, I like the people, we can walk about at night without feeling frightened..... Those are some of the reasons why I came here. My husband works in the UK and commutes cos there's no work in Spain. The downside of Spain is that the houses arent built for the winter, so most of them are cold and expensive to heat, (my last months electricity bill was nearly 300 euros and I only heat one room!!) There's alot of red tape if you need to do almost anything, The credit crunch/recession has hit Spain hard so there is no work.

spain has a very laid back atmoshere - "manana" , which is great when you're feeling lazy, but annoying if you want something done. My air con broke down last June and it wasnt repaired until last September, by then I didnt need it!!! But I love it !

Jo x


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

From Wales.....been here since Nov 2005 and I'm here for good!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

The first time in 30+ years that I have gone to bed with a jumper and jeans and heavy socks etc


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SteveHall said:


> The first time in 30+ years that I have gone to bed with a jumper and jeans and heavy socks etc


Nice !!!!! I'm in the UK and its very windy and wet here, BUT... I have central heating and carpets and double glazing, so its quite cosy listening to the rain beating on the window. My first thoughts when I got here??? The UKs a miserable place, especially the people, very down trodden and glum!!!!

Jo


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## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

My Heart bleeds for you all. It's -0C/32F here and snowing. Tomorrow it's to be as low as -6C/21F.


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## EllieC (May 19, 2008)

You guys are depressing! I have recently left Spain after 6 years to move back to the US for family reasons. I love Spain and can't wait to get back in a few years. To hell with all those idiots who don't do their research and expect little Britain....go home!! I want to live in Spain with my Spanish friends and the sunshine and beaches and wine! Learn the language, love the food, live like a Spainard and love it...otherwise, stay home. No place is perfect and nobody likes immigrants who don't integrate....Viva Espana!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

OK I'm here - because this is now my home. 

There are many reasons why I'm here now - and much was unplanned. 

Like EVERYWHERE there are pluses and minuses. YOU NEED TO ACCEPT THEM - or you'll suffer.

Is there somewhere better? - probably. Will I be leaving? - I doubt it.


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## cuevadame (Dec 31, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> Erm - It most certainly is NOT. Many Spanish properties (especially where expats tend to go) are NOT designed for winter living. Poor insulation is common - and ime DAMP is an issue as often as not then.
> 
> Jojo can maybe give you better averages - but when I was unemployed and we kept the house warm all day - it was NOT a cheap experience.
> 
> The only SAFE option is the Canary Islands


Or live in a cave house.....................


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## EllieC (May 19, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> OK I'm here - because this is now my home.
> 
> There are many reasons why I'm here now - and much was unplanned.
> 
> ...


I have spent many years trying to come up with a place that is better than Valencia...better weather, better beaches, better food, nicer people....I've lived in 5 countries and Hawaii and Valencia is still tops! Please let me know if you come up with someplace better. Every place that is warm has incredible humidity in summer..Valencia doesn't - does get hot though, but always nice in the shade


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

chris(madrid) said:


> OK I'm here - because this is now my home.
> 
> There are many reasons why I'm here now - and much was unplanned.
> 
> ...



If things were going well for me in USA, I'd stay. I don't expect perfection or utopia. There's just too much that I don't like about USA. I heard there are jobs in Tenerife but I have the impression they don't do work visas for non-skilled work and I think that's all my fiance can get anywhere.


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

jojo said:


> I'm here because England is full!! I found it very claustrophobic, too many people, traffic jams, nanny state telling me what I could and couldnt do, violent crime in many towns and cities, binge drinking culture, the climate, the overall greyness......
> 
> Spain for the most part is wonderful, (apart from the winter ), its hot, sunny, relaxing and a sense of space and freedom, I like the people, we can walk about at night without feeling frightened..... Those are some of the reasons why I came here. My husband works in the UK and commutes cos there's no work in Spain. The downside of Spain is that the houses arent built for the winter, so most of them are cold and expensive to heat, (my last months electricity bill was nearly 300 euros and I only heat one room!!) There's alot of red tape if you need to do almost anything, The credit crunch/recession has hit Spain hard so there is no work.
> 
> ...



Jo, I did have the impression UK is crowded. I don't know much about the population but I've heard over the years about so many people for the size of the country, many more people than I've heard about from larger countries. I guess the pubs facilitate some drinking -- wish we had the them in USA because it would help give the country community. 

As I said to Chris, I read there are jobs in the Canary Islands, but I'm wondering if they are seasonal. Mom told me Gibraltar (I think it's in Spain) is building up, but not sure of the implications. 

Anyway, you sound so happy to be in Spain. Wish there was a way to insulate better or convert to a more economical heat source. I guess it's important to plan ahead since it takes so long for services there.


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*Hi Xtrem*



XTreme said:


> From Wales.....been here since Nov 2005 and I'm here for good![/QUO
> 
> Xtrem, glad I thought to go back a page to see your answer. A few years back I thought I was interested in a second home somewhere in the British Isles, and I ended up talking to someone from Western Wales, who was from there and loved it.


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> The first time in 30+ years that I have gone to bed with a jumper and jeans and heavy socks etc


Steve, I wear socks almost every night in the USA and I use a light blanket even if I'm hot. Better than hot than the "bare" feeling of a light sheet over me. 
Sherry


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Caravan2ABetterPlace said:


> Mom told me Gibraltar (I think it's in Spain) .


Despite what the Spanish government likes to think - It's NOT. It is physically attached but it's basically British territory.

To get in here to work on a non-EU passport. You either need a work sponsor to apply for a work visa OR you need to try your luck earning illegally. 

The latter is more and more risky daily. The penalties for employers caught are getting more and more sever. And with a surplus of legal casual labour they're unlikely to bother UNLESS it's one of these slavery deals that seem to be especially prevalent in the Chinese (as an example - there will be others) sweatshops.

As an illegal - deportation and flagged as _persona no grata_ are an almost cert - and I'm told this png status is flashed through ALL the EU. So they might let you in elsewhere - but from day 1 you're under vigilance.

Afaik - ANY CASUAL LABOUR JOBS IN SPAIN AT THE MOMENT WILL BE TEMPORARY OR SEASONAL.


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## bevanddanmark (Mar 15, 2008)

XTreme said:


> It's The Escuela of Hard Knocks you know!
> 
> People deserting their properties everywhere and returning to the UK having lost everything.
> 
> ...


You just described moving to any big city in the USA. Moving to a new country or a new city. It's all the same. You have to keep your wits about you. People need to keep in mind that when you make a big more or a small move YOU ALWAYS TAKE YOUR SELF. In other words, research research and more research. Know what you are getting into. DAHHHHHHH


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## Caravan2ABetterPlace (Feb 1, 2009)

*A Whole World Between Nepal and USA (but all good parts C L O S E D to the ordinary)*



chris(madrid) said:


> Despite what the Spanish government likes to think - It's NOT. It is physically attached but it's basically British territory.
> 
> To get in here to work on a non-EU passport. You either need a work sponsor to apply for a work visa OR you need to try your luck earning illegally.
> 
> ...


chris, so far the canary islands sounds like all the other developed countries regarding visas -- usa, uk, australia, spain, etc.. esp with work visas. I was on the Tenerife forum and one person said he had 3 job offers in restaurants. I assume all are seasonal. I assume he's either a citizen or has pr or else is one of the illegals you have brought to my attention. Seems like my fiance's best option would be to work in entry level on a cruiseship. That's the only way I can think of for him to save and make $ while trying to get a holy grail work visa -- the kind hat can allow him to stay in Canary Islands or wherever. If he can't get me in as his spouse, maybe he can give up his Nepali citizenship to become British? and (all of this in time) then get dual citizenship with USA, then we can at least be together while we're trying to escape from USA. We're just trying to find a satisfactory country, but I guess millions (mayb closer to a billion) of others are also trying for the limited # of "spots". Maybe I could get in before my fiance, but with $30,000 pension from my ex-husband I'd need to get in as a retiree and most countries don't allow you to make any extra $ there. I really want to avoid retirement as even with my disability I'm able-bodied enough to work with adaptations. In 5 years I could be unable to work, but doubt I'll be that disabled. Well, maybe something will dawn on someone here that may help me after reading about my situation. I know the whole world's in economic and to some extent, legal flux and it's not known how that will all gel. With help like I'm receiving here it makes it a lot easier to maintain my "there is no try" decision to continue this search. So thank you everyone who's replied. You are all very conscientious and I appreciate it.  

Sherry (you can all call me "MiserableInUSA" as the "Caravan" is a movement of sorts that I'm tryin' t' start, which fortunately none of you needed)


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

The Canary Islands are SPAIN. Anybody with an UE passport can happily look for work.


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## raininspain2 (Jan 5, 2009)

chris(madrid) said:


> This will depend entirely on the exchange rate. And this changes daily - it's already the cause of distress to many who did their maths when their currency was strong - and now it is not.
> 
> Live rates at 2009.03.02 06:17:33 UTC
> 2,000.00 USD = 1,588.02 EUR minus some bank charges at a guess.
> ...


- - - - - - - - - - - -

Thank you, Chris. Also, thank you Steve for your response. I can swing 2000euros and I don't have to work if that's difficult to find. I'm happily single but will need to have at least 2 bedrooms to accommodate occasional guests. I have good medical insurance and I definitely will enroll to improve my intermediate spanish. C'mon encourage me, please. I just want at least 2 years there or more if it makes sense and I'm happy. Only thing is I don't want to drive if I can avoid it. I'm happy to work just for paella and wine.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

If you will work for paella and wine you start tomorrow. Most of my guys want paying!


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