# some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain



## SpainMan

Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.

I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.

I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.

In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.

So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.

Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.

I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.

I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.

In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.

So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.


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## Chica

SpainMan said:


> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.




Hello SpainMan and :welcome: to the forum.

How exiting for you!! Now that you have introduced yourself it may be better to start a new thread saying what you have said here :confused2: where people won't miss it.

As I'm not a business person I can't really help you on that score but we are desperate for a sailing school or dinghy hiring business here where I live

Good luck. I'm sure you will get some suggestions.

Chica.x


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## jojo

SpainMan said:


> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.


Hi and welcome to the forum!! Well you're one of the lucky ones arent you!! I have no idea on what are good businesses as things are with the crisis. Maybe you should sit back, get to know your surroundings and the people, before you go rushing into anything. 

However, you need to decide where abouts in Spain you want to be, there is everything here and your first priority should be to choose an area you want actually want to be in (coastal, expat, city, campo, hot, cooler...), but if you're looking for business opportunities then you need somewhere that can forefill your aims... 

........of course you MUST be near me then you can employ me!!! LOL:eyebrows:

We have a chap, Steve Hall, who pops on here from time to time who may advise you better, he has a lot of knowledge of businesses, people etc. I'm sure he'll have some advise for you.


Keep us posted and if we can help you further, let us know!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

*investment in spain*



SpainMan said:


> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> .


Hi there,
Another poster who has no idea about business opportunities I'm afraid, but I did find this which may give you a bit of general info
Invest in Spain >> Doing business in Spain >> Barometer of the business climate in Spain. 2008 results
I am a self employed business English teacher, and i would say although it looks attractive and easy, a language academy is not a gold mine. If you know what you're doing you _may _make a steady income, but I personally wouldn't go down that route.
However one of my clients is an ethical bank and they are investing millions in solar farms and solar farm projects...
Have fun thinking about how to invest your money


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## XTreme

I've done some research and it appears the growth market for the immediate future is donkeys.
And obviously a nice website that reflects their equine charms is the key to success.


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## Guest

I would say at the moment that buying a property of two to rent out is a good bet. There are some real bargains to be had and with prices pretty much at rock bottom they would also prove to be a good long term investment. What area are you thinking about moving to? 

We own and run a business out here and we have seen a definate down turn over the last year, so I would think long and hard before launching a business. You may get lots of advice from people telling you about good business ideas or offering you oppertunities that are "too good to miss" Just be aware that there are lots of people struggling and maybe not all of the advice you get will be unbiased. By the way I am not talking about forum members here, so don´t all shoot me


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## MadameEspana

*replying to SpainMan*

Sorry to put a damper on things but your timing is not really good for a new venture. Spain is suffering a real economic downturn and the unemployment figures are devastating and still continuing. Businesses of all types, shops, restaurants, bars etc are closing and the tourist season we are in now has so far shown to have not produced good figures this year. People simply just haven't got the money. 

We ourselves have a holiday rental apartment which normally produces a good income from regular tenants but this year we have two families only which results in us not being able to cover the outgoings on the property for this year. 

I would suspct there are a lot of people here who would be quick to get their hands on your money especially given the financial crisis and there are a lot of unscrupulous people as you may well have heard. It is quite true as we have learned at our own cost. It would be well nigh impossible to recommend a person or an enterprise for you to get involved in at this present time. Sorry to be so doomladen but honesty has to rise to the fore where your hard earned money is concerned. Currently a lot of expats are returning home with their tails between their legs and their wallets a whole lot lighter.

I am not downcrying Spain. We love it here and have made it our home now for many years and as retired pensioners with reasonable savings in place we hope to be okay but I wouldn't want to be starting out any kind of business here at this point in time. Hope this helps in some small way, check the figures, do some research on the web and see for yourself. Good luck with your venture. :ranger:



SpainMan said:


> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.
> 
> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.


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## jojo

MadameEspana said:


> Sorry to put a damper on things but your timing is not really good for a new venture. Spain is suffering a real economic downturn and the unemployment figures are devastating and still continuing. Businesses of all types, shops, restaurants, bars etc are closing and the tourist season we are in now has so far shown to have not produced good figures this year. People simply just haven't got the money.
> 
> We ourselves have a holiday rental apartment which normally produces a good income from regular tenants but this year we have two families only which results in us not being able to cover the outgoings on the property for this year.
> 
> I would suspct there are a lot of people here who would be quick to get their hands on your money especially given the financial crisis and there are a lot of unscrupulous people as you may well have heard. It is quite true as we have learned at our own cost. It would be well nigh impossible to recommend a person or an enterprise for you to get involved in at this present time. Sorry to be so doomladen but honesty has to rise to the fore where your hard earned money is concerned. Currently a lot of expats are returning home with their tails between their legs and their wallets a whole lot lighter.
> 
> I am not downcrying Spain. We love it here and have made it our home now for many years and as retired pensioners with reasonable savings in place we hope to be okay but I wouldn't want to be starting out any kind of business here at this point in time. Hope this helps in some small way, check the figures, do some research on the web and see for yourself. Good luck with your venture. :ranger:



While I agree with alot of what you say. Maybe Spain could do with some investment, however small. There are people here desperate for work and there are people who are out there who dont want to make huge ammounts of money quickly, so altho everything may seem gloomy, you never know whats around the corner. When things are at the bottom, the only way is up????

Jo xxx


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## Chica

On the other hand MadameEspana maybe this is the right time to buy into a business that will flourish when tourism returns??? What that business will be I don't know but this is the time that the rich get richer buying up all these flagging businesses??? Also, Spain has relied on tourism and maybe it should be developing other areas so that it is not so vunerable in the future, eg, manufacturing?!?! Just a thought


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## MadameEspana

*Replying to JoJo*



jojo;166761
While I agree with alot of what you say. Maybe Spain could do with some investment said:


> Hi Jo, I must say I greatly admire your optimism. I am also hopeful that of course given time things WILL improve and we will all get back on track and move forwards but given the mess that governments, poor decisions and greed/corruption have put us all in then it's a long road ahead.
> 
> It is still a difficult decision for investors to decide where or what to put their money safely into and more importantly without high risk. I ask myself if I personally were to invest considerable funds what would I go for and at this present time, given that I am on the Costa del Sol I cannot come up with a business without that element of risk. It would for me be something of a gamble into the unknown. Everyone you speak to here in all areas of well-established business, whether retail, property, restaurants, entertainment etc are all bemoaning their current situation and genuinely concerned as to their future. This is applying to both Spanish and other nationalities having businesses here.
> 
> I would suggest the gentleman learn the Spanish language as this would be vital for any business investment given the many legal implications here. It would also expand his business opportunities to a wider and more varied audience. Best wishes


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## XTreme

Whether I'm misreading something here, but to me the guy is saying he wants to invest his money, relax, and get a good return on the investment.
Silent partner sort of thing it reads to me.....so possibly buying into an existing business rather than starting from scratch.


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## MadameEspana

Hello to you. One thing that Spain has been so poor at is recognising the value of SOLAR power. I believe they are now beginning to install these systems into new builds but they should have done this decades ago..... As for manufacturing, cars have gone to the wall universally, apart from small runarounds as cheap as poss. Cannot think of anything else they could manufacture quite honestly in today's economic climate. As you say tourism was the soft cushion from the start for all the Costas. I do think given the poor weather in UK and other areas that people will return next year for their holidays hopefully and we shall see a gradual upsurge once more in this sector. Hopefully the upward trend would continue on from there. Bye for now.


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## MadameEspana

XTreme said:


> Whether I'm misreading something here, but to me the guy is saying he wants to invest his money, relax, and get a good return on the investment.
> Silent partner sort of thing it reads to me.....so possibly buying into an existing business rather than starting from scratch.


No, I think you have the general idea of what he wants. What I am concerned about for him is the existing business he buys into. If you had money to invest where would you put it and secure a no risk return. On this coastline there are numerous ads for companies asking for investment. How does one make the correct choice. It seems like gambling to me or more to the point russian roulette. Quickest way to the poor house, give em your money and let em run off with it. Sorry heard too many scam stories about this coast and know too many once wealthy people who have done it before to their greater loss. Lawyers couldn't get it back, part of the scam too. Tightening up a bit more these days but the corruption and conmen still sadly exist. I have money sitting in a bank getting low interest but it's there for my future not some scoundrel's. Sound bitter, yes been down that road before, never again. The topic is a difficult one in these times we are experiencing.


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## Chica

Ok. Into the Dragons Den

For €20.000 we would like to offer you 20% of the equity for setting up and managing a sailing/hiring dinghy school, with a view to finally run races for those more enthusiastic sailors. :director::fish2: "come in number 10"!!

We are half joking of course!?!?

Sorry to lower the tone


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## Xose

SpainMan said:


> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.
> 
> Good morning everybody! I'm hoping to get some ideas and recommendations for my impending move to Spain.
> 
> I'm leaving the UK and intending to relocate to Spain, as I've recently sold my long established business here. However, I'm seriously thinking of investing in something over there, with a view to generating another source of income. Hopefully to cover a relatively comfortable lifestyle in Spain.
> 
> I'm not looking for a hands-on role here, as I feel that the time has come to take a back seat and relax. But it would obviously be beneficial for me to have a continual revenue stream for the future.
> 
> In terms of type of business, I'm open to suggestions. Though obviously any "get rich quick" or ill conceived ideas won't be of any interest. I'm looking for something that has a solid base, and for which there is a demand in Spain.
> 
> So any suggestions on business investments, along with relevant areas of Spain, would be very helpful.


Hello and welcome. 

Well, I thought I'd seen it all on here, but this is the first time a venture capitalist has come to the forum for ideas.

Some thoughts then.

Venture capital on the route you appear to be taking - wouldn't touch it with a barge poll. 

Venture capital via your (I'm sure already appointed with all that cash in the account) bank's personal investment planner/high gain portfolio planning executive... or whatever the hell the bank managers are called these days - perhaps, but they do want their cut and you take the risk on the potential money makers. Some accounts do offer Market performance tracking and you get a cut up to a max with capital return guarantees - but there's the rub. When the market makes 30 – 50%, you won't get anywhere near that much. Probably a ceiling of 5-10% or so.

If you have enough, and you can let it grow for 2 or 3 years without day trade panics, get yourself a good trader or via your bank of choice and have a look at the blue chips. The majors are trying to get confidence back and they are paying good dividends – in the mean time you should get some not to be repeated any time soon increases in the next couple of years.

These are purely my thoughts and do not in any way suggest to anyone to get into stock purchase. It is risky and should only be done with money that is not needed. In order to mitigate losses, one must be in a position to wait – just as one does (if at all possible) with a negative equity home.

Good luck whatever you do. Just be sure that whomever has your money, has so much of others’ that yours is of no particular interest other than the best intentions for the client.

Xose


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## MadameEspana

Ha ha ha!! We can see humour in everything hey??? Love the idea of a Spanish Dragon's Den, now THAT would be interesting!!!! Hi Dragons, will you invest in my Beach Chiringhito??? x


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## jojo

MadameEspana said:


> Ha ha ha!! We can see humour in everything hey??? Love the idea of a Spanish Dragon's Den, now THAT would be interesting!!!! Hi Dragons, will you invest in my Beach Chiringhito??? x


I've heard rumours that they're abolishing chiringhitos??? I guess if we do have any suggestions tho, we could post em with how well or not we think they'd work??????

Jo xxx


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## Chica

MadameEspana said:


> Ha ha ha!! We can see humour in everything hey??? Love the idea of a Spanish Dragon's Den, now THAT would be interesting!!!! Hi Dragons, will you invest in my Beach Chiringhito??? x


I'm glad someone can se my daft sense of humor. Didn't really want to lower the tone as this is a very serious subject but just couldn't resist


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## MadameEspana

Xose said:


> Hello and welcome.
> 
> Well, I thought I'd seen it all on here, but this is the first time a venture capitalist has come to the forum for ideas.
> 
> Some thoughts then.
> 
> Venture capital on the route you appear to be taking - wouldn't touch it with a barge poll.
> 
> Venture capital via your (I'm sure already appointed with all that cash in the account) bank's personal investment planner/high gain portfolio planning executive... or whatever the hell the bank managers are called these days - perhaps, but they do want their cut and you take the risk on the potential money makers. Some accounts do offer Market performance tracking and you get a cut up to a max with capital return guarantees - but there's the rub. When the market makes 30 – 50%, you won't get anywhere near that much. Probably a ceiling of 5-10% or so.
> 
> If you have enough, and you can let it grow for 2 or 3 years without day trade panics, get yourself a good trader or via your bank of choice and have a look at the blue chips. The majors are trying to get confidence back and they are paying good dividends – in the mean time you should get some not to be repeated any time soon increases in the next couple of years.
> 
> These are purely my thoughts and do not in any way suggest to anyone to get into stock purchase. It is risky and should only be done with money that is not needed. In order to mitigate losses, one must be in a position to wait – just as one does (if at all possible) with a negative equity home.
> 
> Good luck whatever you do. Just be sure that whomever has your money, has so much of others’ that yours is of no particular interest other than the best intentions for the client.
> 
> Xose


Wise words indeed. You sound like you have your feet firmly on the ground and a good insight into the financial world yourself. Particularly love your last paragraph. You certainly know where I am coming from with my comments hey??? :clap2::clap2:


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## MadameEspana

jojo said:


> I've heard rumours that they're abolishing chiringhitos??? I guess if we do have any suggestions tho, we could post em with how well or not we think they'd work??????
> 
> Jo xxx


 Yes that was exactly my point. Why invest in something that is going to go to the wall, sooner rather than later.


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## Pesky Wesky

*solar power*



Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi there,
> Another poster who has no idea about business opportunities I'm afraid, but I did find this which may give you a bit of general info
> Invest in Spain >> Doing business in Spain >> Barometer of the business climate in Spain. 2008 results
> I am a self employed business English teacher, and i would say although it looks attractive and easy, a language academy is not a gold mine. If you know what you're doing you _may _make a steady income, but I personally wouldn't go down that route.
> However one of my clients is an ethical bank and they are investing millions in solar farms and solar farm projects...
> Have fun thinking about how to invest your money


Hmmmmmmm
Might have to rethink the solar power thing...
Bloomberg Printer-Friendly Page


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## Tallulah

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hmmmmmmm
> Might have to rethink the solar power thing...
> Bloomberg Printer-Friendly Page


Hi Jane,

Yes, I never did fully follow the electricity companies' arguments that prices should increase to fund their research and development for new technologies. I understand the need for renewable energy sources, and I understand the governmnet perhaps ploughing some tax money into it - but to guarantee a business' future viability as a result has always left a sour taste in my mouth!:spit: Perhaps the electrical companies should be made to look at the R&D more as a future survival strategy than a government saying "you must..." as an excuse.

Tally.xx


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## MadameEspana

BUGS said:


> I would say at the moment that buying a property of two to rent out is a good bet. There are some real bargains to be had and with prices pretty much at rock bottom they would also prove to be a good long term investment. What area are you thinking about moving to?
> 
> We own and run a business out here and we have seen a definate down turn over the last year, so I would think long and hard before launching a business. You may get lots of advice from people telling you about good business ideas or offering you oppertunities that are "too good to miss" Just be aware that there are lots of people struggling and maybe not all of the advice you get will be unbiased. By the way I am not talking about forum members here, so don´t all shoot me




I agree that buying a property for yourself you can pick up some real bargains but as I said earlier we have a holiday rental property as an investment but last year and this year have proved disastrous, barely covering the annual outgoings. Looking at the local papers there are so many properties available at knock down rents it's a lucky dip. Maybe long term rentals fare better but still pick and mix for pricing. Spain is now a much costlier place to live. I believe people are now choosing Cyprus, Turkey and Bulgaria as options to make a better investment for the future. I still prefer here but have seen escalating prices across the board for some time now with many people forced to return to their home countries. Very sad.


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## MadameEspana

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi there,
> Another poster who has no idea about business opportunities I'm afraid, but I did find this which may give you a bit of general info
> Invest in Spain >> Doing business in Spain >> Barometer of the business climate in Spain. 2008 results
> I am a self employed business English teacher, and i would say although it looks attractive and easy, a language academy is not a gold mine. If you know what you're doing you _may _make a steady income, but I personally wouldn't go down that route.
> However one of my clients is an ethical bank and they are investing millions in solar farms and solar farm projects...
> Have fun thinking about how to invest your money


 It would be nice to hear comments from SPAINMAN about all our input on his impending move hey? He's gone very quiet, probably counting his dosh!!!! lane:


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## Pesky Wesky

MadameEspana said:


> It would be nice to hear comments from SPAINMAN about all our input on his impending move hey? He's gone very quiet, probably counting his dosh!!!! lane:


HaHaHaHa:lol:
:car:
Can't find a smiley that looks like Sir Alan Sugar!!


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## SpainMan

Many thanks for all your responses. What I would say is I have been looking at one particular area of business where I feel there is a definite requirement. And that's wireless telecommunications.
As I understand it, the Telefonica infrastructure doesn't extend to many rural areas. Plus the alternative suppliers are also failing to fulfil customers' requirements.

My specific business experience was in a totally different market sector, and as I said, I'm not looking to continue working at my time of life. So an existing business needing backing, or a professional start-up needing additional financing would possibly be the way forward.

Any thoughts?


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## SteveHall

Hi SpainMan, Nice to see somebody looking to invest in this great country. I have, coincidentally, spent 30 years in telecom and I have spent most of today working with some guys on a telecom project in Singapore. Small world! 

Your comments re Telefónica are fairly accurate but remember they have got the most profitable (urban) areas covered. What is left is, by its very nature, less attractive to many. I have a lot of friends in the telecom industry and many have projects on the back-burner just awaiting funding. The big question I have to all of them is just how profitable could it be. I have built up many contacts in capital-funding so for the correct project money would not necessarily be the issue. The owners usually either fear giving away equity and/or control or have to admit that it is a vanity project and whilst they might like to cable the xyz valley because their parents live there a return of a few thousand euros per month on an investment of millions would excite nobody. 

What could be MUCH more interesting IMHO is rolling out the mobile services and that IS do-able at a reasonable investment. I know not how much you are looking at but for less than a few hundred thousand you could by a peace of that increasing pie. For a lot less than that I'd even start one from (almost) scratch for you! 

What you need to know is that the rules are changing as far as telecom is concerned. There is going to be a whole new set of rules as of 13 August. From that date on I would not like to be in fixed line, copper cable. There will be a bloodbath on prices I am sure and that will lead to massive opportunities for those who do not have an existing high cost base. It's going to be HAPPY DAYS for the consumers at last and there is going to be a whole new cake to eat. 

There are obviously thousands of other businesses to consider - I have always liked property and you can certainly buy domestic and commercial property at a sensible price now. Think of offering 20% below what the vendor says is his rock bottom price and you should be able to negotiate. Hotels are another option. I know of some that I think can be turned around and if I had REAL money available and had the right management team I'd definitely look at car-hire companies.

Solar and alternative energies interest me - SOMEBODY is going to make a killing. Sadly, I have not found the right partners yet but with EU laws etc SOMEBODY could really take that cake. I am amazed people like Dragados have not made more noise but of course, they like 99% of Spain have their own issues to resolve. The banks cannot be seen to be other than conservative at the moment and the big issue with solar is the gigantic up-front ante that is required. Zappy and co can pay lip-service to supporting it but no way are they going to release the funds to REALLY commit to alternative energies. 

Just a few ideas. I have been here for 8 years and have been involved with many businesses through my exhibitions, web-sites and local networking associations so could introduce you to many people who would be interested in talking. It bluntly all boils down to how much you want to invest and where you are looking on the Richter scale of ultra-safe to ultra-high risk! 

Happy to talk anything through


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## Xose

SteveHall said:


> .....- SOMEBODY is going to make a killing. Sadly, I have not found the right partners yet but with EU laws etc SOMEBODY could really take that cake. .....


When the pieces of cake (licenses) were being handed out for Energia eolica recently, Amancio Ortega wanted a piece. Last I saw he was the 8th richest man on the planet (though positions have changed in the past year or so).

He, as well as some other notable names, were left out of the loop and the tender process was questioned, to say the least. 

I haven't followed the issue so not sure where it is now, but licenses were awarded and links were made to names who had links with names etc., etdc., and all very predictable. These were major players - we're talking Billions - and the politicians still did their thing.

I fear that getting a slice of any big cake will be quite a neat trick if your name isn't Borbon y Borbon or some such. Dosh alone won't do it.

I'm pretty sure that at this level, Spain is not the only territory this happens in. See 3G licensing in the UK for reference. Priced out of all reasonable markets. Sure, all above board it would appear, but when only 10 in a million can afford it, it's rigged really, isn't it?!


Xose


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## SteveHall

Yes, that's pretty much how I see it. 

The only chance for "the little guys" is to get a slice of the sub-contracting work. My experience is that the head-licensee is so busy (a) counting his money (b) bragging to the world about it (c) employing cheap labour in his purchasing departments that if you can go in, do a good job and never rustle any feathers nobody will really care/note how much you have charged. That's my cynical conclusion from dealing with councils, utilities, local govt etc over many, many years. One MAJOR UK PLC bought the story that they were on "Tariff 1a+" or something I invented in their carpark and paid at least 20% more for some fax machines than the SOHO guy who was happy with a loyal customer discount of 5%. Mind you the latter paid on the spot or (preferably) on finance whereas the PLC usually took 90 days to even think about paying.

As John Wayne (?) would say, "There's money in them there hills,"............especially if it has a solar village built on it!


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## Guest

MadameEspana said:


> I agree that buying a property for yourself you can pick up some real bargains but as I said earlier we have a holiday rental property as an investment but last year and this year have proved disastrous, barely covering the annual outgoings. Looking at the local papers there are so many properties available at knock down rents it's a lucky dip. Maybe long term rentals fare better but still pick and mix for pricing. Spain is now a much costlier place to live. I believe people are now choosing Cyprus, Turkey and Bulgaria as options to make a better investment for the future. I still prefer here but have seen escalating prices across the board for some time now with many people forced to return to their home countries. Very sad.


I would agree that some people are now choosing other destinations for holidays, but where we are the long term rental market is still good. We rent out a couple of places long term and still get e mails asking about them from old adverts placed on the internet. (must remember to get rid of those) 
It all depends on how you buy. I think nowadays if you need a mortgage to buy and rely on rents to pay the mortgage then you are on a sticky wicket. Years ago this was not the case; you could buy on a mortgage and expect the rent to pretty much cover it.
There are some exceptional deals to be had at the moment, but you must keep your eyes open at all times


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Yes, that's pretty much how I see it.
> 
> The only chance for "the little guys" is to get a slice of the sub-contracting work. My experience is that the head-licensee is so busy (a) counting his money (b) bragging to the world about it (c) employing cheap labour in his purchasing departments that if you can go in, do a good job and never rustle any feathers nobody will really care/note how much you have charged. That's my cynical conclusion from dealing with councils, utilities, local govt etc over many, many years. One MAJOR UK PLC bought the story that they were on "Tariff 1a+" or something I invented in their carpark and paid at least 20% more for some fax machines than the SOHO guy who was happy with a loyal customer discount of 5%. Mind you the latter paid on the spot or (preferably) on finance whereas the PLC usually took 90 days to even think about paying.
> 
> As John Wayne (?) would say, "There's money in them there hills,"............especially if it has a solar village built on it!


Now say all that in English, so that we all (including the OP) understand!!

Jo xx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> Now say all that in English, so that we all (including the OP) understand!!
> 
> Jo xx


I think he got himself hooked up with a guy from Soho in a car park Jo!


----------



## SteveHall

jojo said:


> Now say all that in English, so that we all (including the OP) understand!!
> 
> Jo xx


"xxxx them or be xxxxed by them" The best-selling book by Steve Hall who covers the joys of dealing with International PLCs, local and regional government, police/fire/ambulance and the utility companies. 

The suffix is a blow by blow account of supplying banks and building socities. He details how he tried to explain their own banking systems to them. "If you don't pay me for 4 months how do you expect me to (a) supply you a service and (b) pay my staff for them to pay your stupid mortgages?":boxing::boxing::boxing:

Soon to be an Oscar-nominated film with Del Boy and Alan Sugar.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> "xxxx them or be xxxxed by them" The best-selling book by Steve Hall who covers the joys of dealing with International PLCs, local and regional government, police/fire/ambulance and the utility companies.
> 
> The suffix is a blow by blow account of supplying banks and building socities. He details how he tried to explain their own banking systems to them. "If you don't pay me for 4 months how do you expect me to (a) supply you a service and (b) pay my staff for them to pay your stupid mortgages?":boxing::boxing::boxing:
> 
> Soon to be an Oscar-nominated film with Del Boy and Alan Sugar.


I think I understood Xtremes translation better !!!!! :eyebrows::eyebrows:


Jo xxx


----------



## SteveHall

I did not see it but I am sure it would have been in the best possible taste!


----------



## SteveHall

Just what I was saying!!! 

Alan Sugar has bought the prestigious Hotel Byblos in Mijas, Málaga. 

This is a superb hotel but like the nearby Torrequebrada which is also in administrative receivership fell victim to "the crunch" You could have picked the Byblos up at auction for les than 3,5 million! (40 million was spent on it in just 2005!) 

GOOD news for the coast I am sure - if you want help finding hotels please give me a shout


----------



## Chica

That's where radio spectrum is based I believe. Nice surroundings!!! Byblos that is.


----------



## SteveHall

It could be a WORLD CLASS venue. Great hotel already - surrounded by golf courses. He has bought it for a penny in the pound and he could turn it into a truly unique venue. It's that kind of initiative that would get the coast back on its feet. 

The Secretary of State for tourism said last night in Santander that the government expected to see tourism down by over 10% this year with Brits down by an unholy 16%. Not often you get honesty from politicians! They have just announced a massive 1,4 billion injection into the tourism budget so hope news like Sugar's purchase is just the first. Now we only need the OP to purchase the Torrequebrada and it's happy days for that area of the coast.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> It could be a WORLD CLASS venue. Great hotel already - surrounded by golf courses. He has bought it for a penny in the pound and he could turn it into a truly unique venue. It's that kind of initiative that would get the coast back on its feet.
> 
> The Secretary of State for tourism said last night in Santander that the government expected to see tourism down by over 10% this year with Brits down by an unholy 16%. Not often you get honesty from politicians! They have just announced a massive 1,4 billion injection into the tourism budget so hope news like Sugar's purchase is just the first. Now we only need the OP to purchase the Torrequebrada and it's happy days for that area of the coast.


I think that its all this "world class" nonsense and turning Spain into some kind of hi tech, "anywhere in the world" kinda place is to its detriment. Spain was a beautiful country until it was taken over by tourism and turned into a concrete jungle. Now, people have lost interest cos its not "spain" anymore, its a hot country with lots of ugly hotels! Ok, so this Hotel maybe "better" than all the rest, but its simply perpetuating Spains lost identity in my opinion

Jo xxx


----------



## MadameEspana

jojo said:


> I think that its all this "world class" nonsense and turning Spain into some kind of hi tech, "anywhere in the world" kinda place is to its detriment. Spain was a beautiful country until it was taken over by tourism and turned into a concrete jungle. Now, people have lost interest cos its not "spain" anymore, its a hot country with lots of ugly hotels! Ok, so this Hotel maybe "better" than all the rest, but its simply perpetuating Spains lost identity in my opinion
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo, I think you are absolutely right. I have been coming to the Costa del Sol for nearly 30 years (my parents lived here also) and moved permanently late 90's when we retired. The changes made have NOT been for the better. All the towns, fishing villages and now even inland areas are almost all joined together in one concrete mass with very little green zones between them apart from the numerous golf courses that is (if you can afford to play on them at their exhorbitant prices). The most successful hotels on the coast now are the Holiday World complexes which are huge all-in-one package deals for the Brits and families. they are ferried in byh coach from Malaga Airport, fed, watered and all entertainment thrown in and need not go anywhere else til they leave again by coach for the Airport. As for the Byblos, yes lovely Hotel on Mijas Golf where we own a holiday apartment for rental but the hotel was astronomically expensive (Princess Diana stayed there) and their cordon bleu restaurant well outside most people's budget. Same goes for the wonderful Los Monteros Hotel, Marbella which is now also lying empty. People are simply not coming for this 5* over the top luxury these difficult times. There are other options for people and Spain has had a wonderful run for it's money. They have to rethink the whole tourism thing very carefully, it might well be too late!!!!! :confused2:


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> I think that its all this "world class" nonsense and turning Spain into some kind of hi tech, "anywhere in the world" kinda place is to its detriment. Spain was a beautiful country until it was taken over by tourism and turned into a concrete jungle. Now, people have lost interest cos its not "spain" anymore, its a hot country with lots of ugly hotels! Ok, so this Hotel maybe "better" than all the rest, but its simply perpetuating Spains lost identity in my opinion
> 
> Jo xxx


I have to agree. We travel all over Spain with our business and see some of the tourist areas and I am not impressed. Where we live in Los Alcazares we are not affected that much by the "stack em high sell em cheap" holidays. None of the buildings in Los Alcazares are allowed to be higher than three stories so hopefully we will never see the likes of Benidorm here. Just across the Mar Menor though we have La Manga which is high rise and pretty grim. 
We still have the golf courses but they are built away from towns. It is mainly a rural area where the biggest industry is farming and agriculture. I am not saying that it has not changed here, but the changes have not been as drastic as in other places. Maybe they have learnt from the likes of Benidorm. We still have lots of corruption, the planning officers regularly get arrested and name plaques on office doors are just white boards with the names sribbled on with semi-permanent markers. Spain just got carried away with the tourist industry, although I suspose that is what brought us all here in the 60´s 70´s and 80´s. 
I still prefer it to the UK though and have no intentions of going back there.


----------



## SteveHall

MadameEspana - I am amazed at you. Sugar has bought an outstanding venue with unlimited potential and the one thing Sugar knows is how to market. Whatever you think of Sugar he will want to maximise his investment. What's the alternative? Spain goes back to 2*, 3* package holidays? Esperanza Oña has (again whatever I think of her!) dragged Fuengirola up and all that remains of Fuengirola's shabby 70s and 80s is really only it's reputation. 

99% of Spain IS unspoilt but there is still a massive demand for "sol y playa" that this coast can provide 

As for the rest ... Miguel Sebastian confirmed that the government approved Friday a new stimulus package for the tourism sector worth one billion euros (1.4 billion dollars).

The new aid package brings the total amount alloted to the sector so far this year to two billion euros, Sebastian said.

The government is also seeking to attract more tourists from growing markets such as Russia and China and develop rural and cultural tourism to compensate for a decline in the number of sunseekers.

"We are seeking through rural development, through new products like scientific tourism, cultural tourism, gastronomic tourism, to raise tourism revenues through better quality," Sebastian told public television TVE.

From Yahoo News.


----------



## SpainMan

Many thanks for the numerous responses here, you have certainly given me food for thought. Particularly the input from Steve Hall which I will certainly be looking at quite closely.

If anybody feels they can contribute additional information, it will certainly be gratefully received.


----------



## Cazzy

BUGS said:


> I would say at the moment that buying a property of two to rent out is a good bet. There are some real bargains to be had and with prices pretty much at rock bottom they would also prove to be a good long term investment. What area are you thinking about moving to?
> 
> We own and run a business out here and we have seen a definate down turn over the last year, so I would think long and hard before launching a business. You may get lots of advice from people telling you about good business ideas or offering you oppertunities that are "too good to miss" Just be aware that there are lots of people struggling and maybe not all of the advice you get will be unbiased. By the way I am not talking about forum members here, so don´t all shoot me


We've thought of property, in particular the one opposit us, all they want is someone to take over the mortgage and pay the legal costs and the house is yours. They payed 130k for it 3 years ago have spent 100k on it, and the mortgage is only 80k. A win win situation I think, only we can't afford it at the mo, and I can't see it hanging arounf for long!!


----------



## SteveHall

Cazzy said:


> We've thought of property, in particular the one opposit us, all they want is someone to take over the mortgage and pay the legal costs and the house is yours. They payed 130k for it 3 years ago have spent 100k on it, and the mortgage is only 80k. A win win situation I think, only we can't afford it at the mo, and I can't see it hanging arounf for long!!


Just exactly the type of deals that are around at the moment. Have you thought about flipping it. Shout if you want help.


----------



## Cazzy

SteveHall said:


> Just exactly the type of deals that are around at the moment. Have you thought about flipping it. Shout if you want help.


Flipping it ?


----------



## SteveHall

...buying it and sellling it without even living in it ...... (usually) on other people's money.


----------



## Cazzy

SteveHall said:


> ...buying it and sellling it without even living in it ...... (usually) on other people's money.


Nah, but it's a hell of a bargain !!!! I don't think you could loose.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> MadameEspana - I am amazed at you. Sugar has bought an outstanding venue with unlimited potential and the one thing Sugar knows is how to market. Whatever you think of Sugar he will want to maximise his investment. What's the alternative? Spain goes back to 2*, 3* package holidays? Esperanza Oña has (again whatever I think of her!) dragged Fuengirola up and all that remains of Fuengirola's shabby 70s and 80s is really only it's reputation.
> 
> 99% of Spain IS unspoilt but there is still a massive demand for "sol y playa" that this coast can provide
> 
> As for the rest ... Miguel Sebastian confirmed that the government approved Friday a new stimulus package for the tourism sector worth one billion euros (1.4 billion dollars).
> 
> The new aid package brings the total amount alloted to the sector so far this year to two billion euros, Sebastian said.
> 
> The government is also seeking to attract more tourists from growing markets such as Russia and China and develop rural and cultural tourism to compensate for a decline in the number of sunseekers.
> 
> "We are seeking through rural development, through new products like scientific tourism, cultural tourism, gastronomic tourism, to raise tourism revenues through better quality," Sebastian told public television TVE.
> 
> From Yahoo News.


Sadly Steve, you seem to be completely awestruck by the facts and figures (which mean nothing, you should know that as an entrepreneur) You cannot manufacture rural and natural surroundings. 

If you want the "world class" lifestyle etc, Dubias the place to go, not Spain it simply isnt Spanish!

Jo xx


----------



## Chica

Cazzy said:


> Flipping it ?



I know some people that come unstuck with this flippin malarky. "By off plan and sell it before the final payment". They ended up with a mortgage they didn't want because they couldn't sell it due to the overbuild. Good in its hayday but those days have gone!?!?


----------



## MadameEspana

SteveHall said:


> MadameEspana - I am amazed at you. Sugar has bought an outstanding venue with unlimited potential and the one thing Sugar knows is how to market. Whatever you think of Sugar he will want to maximise his investment. What's the alternative? Spain goes back to 2*, 3* package holidays? Esperanza Oña has (again whatever I think of her!) dragged Fuengirola up and all that remains of Fuengirola's shabby 70s and 80s is really only it's reputation.
> 
> 99% of Spain IS unspoilt but there is still a massive demand for "sol y playa" that this coast can provide
> 
> As for the rest ... Miguel Sebastian confirmed that the government approved Friday a new stimulus package for the tourism sector worth one billion euros (1.4 billion dollars).
> 
> The new aid package brings the total amount alloted to the sector so far this year to two billion euros, Sebastian said.
> 
> The government is also seeking to attract more tourists from growing markets such as Russia and China and develop rural and cultural tourism to compensate for a decline in the number of sunseekers.
> 
> "We are seeking through rural development, through new products like scientific tourism, cultural tourism, gastronomic tourism, to raise tourism revenues through better quality," Sebastian told public television TVE.
> 
> From Yahoo News.


We are talking about the Coast here and the decline in general along the main tourist belt. Yes Sir Alan may well turn a once luxury hotel around and bring in the high-spenders but is that all that matters here? He can afford to take a loss if it all goes belly-up. The people have to come to make it a success don't they???High end hotels, restaurants, shops etc are in trouble. We have unfinished buildings all around the area which will fall into decline over the winter months. Ask the man/woman in the street about their homes, cost of living and businesses etc and they will tell you they are very,very anxious and concerned. You are throwing figures at us and quotes from official bodies etc same as we have heard before. Talk about the present, the here and now and what is happening daily to REAL people's lives please not what the hopes and dreams for the future may possibly be. There are no guarantees. We are all a little bit dissillusioned right???


----------



## Cazzy

Chica said:


> I know some people that come unstuck with this flippin malarky. "By off plan and sell it before the final payment". They ended up with a mortgage they didn't want because they couldn't sell it due to the overbuild. Good in its hayday but those days have gone!?!?


Thanks Chica
We won't be doing it, too cautious for that!


----------



## MadameEspana

Cazzy said:


> We've thought of property, in particular the one opposit us, all they want is someone to take over the mortgage and pay the legal costs and the house is yours. They payed 130k for it 3 years ago have spent 100k on it, and the mortgage is only 80k. A win win situation I think, only we can't afford it at the mo, and I can't see it hanging arounf for long!!


Cazzy, It sounds as though you won't proceed on this one but with anything that is such a bargain, double check the legalities of the house, title deeds, plans and anything else you can lay your hands on. Don't want to scaremonger but lots of cases in the news have shown building irregularities, incorrect planning permissions etc. Just be cautious as this seems way too attractive a deal given what their outgoings have been so far. Could have serious issues possibly. Consider some well- recommended legal advice. Caution always!!!!  Something too good to be true - usually is!!!!!


----------



## Cazzy

MadameEspana said:


> Cazzy, It sounds as though you won't proceed on this one but with anything that is such a bargain, double check the legalities of the house, title deeds, plans and anything else you can lay your hands on. Don't want to scaremonger but lots of cases in the news have shown building irregularities, incorrect planning permissions etc. Just be cautious as this seems way too attractive a deal given what their outgoings have been so far. Could have serious issues possibly. Consider some well- recommended legal advice. Caution always!!!!  Something too good to be true - usually is!!!!!


This house is fine. We have been to the solicitor with them. Everything is legal and above board, we just can't afford it. We know the circumstances which are forcing them to sell.


----------



## jojo

:focus:maybe we should go back on topic a bit. What will poor "Spainman" think of us!! !! LOL

Right, investment opportunities in Spain!!!! 

:focus::focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## SteveHall

Wow, this is the first time I have been accused of being positive! 

I was in Los Boliches until 3 weeks ago - I know the xxxx that it is going through BUT if tell the truth about it I get crucified. Now, I'm taking flak from highlighting something positive Jejej If people like OP and Sugar are prepared to invest here then we have a chance. If not.... 

People are already voting with their feet and something needs to be done. Zappy's 1,4 billion is a start (especially as it is into new areas of tourism) but facts are facts and the Brits are going elsewhere. Turkey, Australia and China way up year on year. Spain has lost its position as 2nd most popular tourist destination in the world to the USA. 

There are superb investment opportunites here now and I'd certainly be interested in any consortium to buy the Torrequebrada.


----------



## MadameEspana

jojo said:


> :focus:maybe we should go back on topic a bit. What will poor "Spainman" think of us!! !! LOL
> 
> Right, investment opportunities in Spain!!!!
> 
> :focus::focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


 Fromwhat I have read I think SPAINMAN and Mr. Hall will be setting up an appointment real soon!!!!!!! Out of our league hey??? Opportunists are out there for sure.............


----------



## SteveHall

MadameEspana said:


> High end hotels, restaurants, shops etc are in trouble.:


Not all - try to get a good table at Novellis. One of the main reasons they many establishments at all price levels are in trouble is because they are not embracing new technolgies. 

First rule of marketing: "If you do today what you did yesterday - you will get the same results"

These hotels, restaurants are trying to attract clients in the same way as they have done for the past x years. They are usually not into emarketing. They do not blog, they do not have client newsletters, they do not emarket past clients. The ones that do are succeeding but it's easy to put a 500 euro ad in a paper and a lot harder to build a database, set up a Twitter a/c, email all of last years plus 2,000 euro spenders. 

I can show you two hotels that are doing great business BUT they have adapted and adopted I can show you two hotels in Ronda that have closed THIS WEEK who didn't move with the times. 

Spain WILL bounce back. Fitter, leaner and better than ever.

BTW I have just finished a blog about great Spanish hotels - all positive stuff. I'll see whether Jojo let's me post it.


----------



## Chica

SteveHall said:


> Turkey, Australia and China way up year on year. Spain has lost its position as 2nd most popular tourist destination in the world to the USA.


That's really strange Steve. When I speak to my Turkish estate agent friend he says that they too are really struggling because of the credit crunch:confused2:. Maybe it's just that area?!?! However, we don't want the OP spending his money there do we

Sorry...:focus:


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> BTW I have just finished a blog about great Spanish hotels - all positive stuff. I'll see whether Jojo let's me post it.



Why dont you do your own blog on the forum and pop it in there, then anyone who's interested can have a look!! I dont wanna turn the forum into a listings/yellow pages type place

Jo xxx

Jo xxx


----------



## SteveHall

It's not a listings - there are no ads nor affiliate linnks - just a list of some of the GREAT hotels I have stayed at in Spain ....did not mention the Byblos! 

Where are you suggesting I add it Jojo? 

(Turkey 9,8% up year on year ...... but has absolutely zero appeal to me)


----------



## MadameEspana

jojo said:


> Sadly Steve, you seem to be completely awestruck by the facts and figures (which mean nothing, you should know that as an entrepreneur) You cannot manufacture rural and natural surroundings.
> 
> If you want the "world class" lifestyle etc, Dubias the place to go, not Spain it simply isnt Spanish!
> 
> Jo xx


Hi Jo, you have got it in one. Mr Hall is promoting himself and keen to help investors offload their cash as we can see from his previous comments. He is not at all interested in the hard facts of life here for the average expat only the benefits of investment using other people's cash!!!! Quoting figures from the newspapers etc, c'mon we have heard it all before. Move on Mr. Hall........ we are on to you. Dubai would be more up your alley. 7* lifestyle there to all intents and purposes. Grab that if you will!!!!


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Turkey, Australia and China way up year on year. Spain has lost its position as 2nd most popular tourist destination in the world to the USA.


The reason these destinations are popular (and we've only got nonsensical figures to go by is that they havent turned themselves into sycophantic british resorts. They have remained true to their culture and tourists want to see that

Jo xx


----------



## Chica

jojo said:


> The reason these destinations are popular (and we've only got nonsensical figures to go by is that they havent turned themselves into sycophantic british resorts. They have remained true to their culture and tourists want to see that
> 
> Jo xx


Well said Jo!!! It, too is a lovely, quirky country and very much unspoilt...sofar. Maybe that is another language that Steve would have to learn and believe me spanish is a walk in the park considering...not latin based. C'mon Steve..tell me you speak turkish too...lol.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> It's not a listings - there are no ads nor affiliate linnks - just a list of some of the GREAT hotels I have stayed at in Spain ....did not mention the Byblos!
> 
> Where are you suggesting I add it Jojo?
> 
> (Turkey 9,8% up year on year ...... but has absolutely zero appeal to me)


As you know, I'm not a great lover of lists of information, I personally find them boring. and this is a forum not a hotel guide.

Why dont you put into "thisisspain" and put the link on!

Hey Stevie, I'm sorry if I'm having a go, I love you really , its just sometimes we sit on opposite sides of the fence. I will always bow to your greater knowledge, but I also have a real distain for facts and figures, they're so easy to manipulate!!

Jo xx


----------



## SteveHall

MadameEspana said:


> Hi Jo, you have got it in one. Mr Hall is promoting himself and keen to help investors offload their cash as we can see from his previous comments. He is not at all interested in the hard facts of life here for the average expat only the benefits of investment using other people's cash!!!! Quoting figures from the newspapers etc, c'mon we have heard it all before. Move on Mr. Hall........ we are on to you. Dubai would be more up your alley. 7* lifestyle there to all intents and purposes. Grab that if you will!!!!


That is a disgraceful insult as anybody who has known what I have done for the last eight years will tell you. 

I am not going to bother asking a mod or Bob to take it down - my track record speaks for itself. 

I think you have only been on this forum for a few days so I suggest that if you want to start throwing xxxx that you look back over a couple of thousand posts and see what I have tried to achieve for the average expat. 

I am REGULARLY and ROUTINELY accused of being too negative and yet when I try to say something positive you choose to twist everything. 

PS Dubai - you OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about what is happening there - just check the Dubai forum here. Their building boom has burst BIG style.


----------



## SteveHall

Chica said:


> Well said Jo!!! It, too is a lovely, quirky country and very much unspoilt...sofar. Maybe that is another language that Steve would have to learn and believe me spanish is a walk in the park considering...not latin based. C'mon Steve..tell me you speak turkish too...lol.


Absolutely not one word - to be honest it has never had any appeal to me as a country or a language. I do have an embryonic Turkish web site but I could never get the enthusiasm to develop it. 

I have lots of friends who have gone there and loved it but sadly I have never fancied it. I know that you adore the country. Hope you'll get a chance to go back soon.


----------



## Chica

SteveHall said:


> Absolutely not one word - to be honest it has never had any appeal to me as a country or a language. I do have an embryonic Turkish web site but I could never get the enthusiasm to develop it.
> 
> I have lots of friends who have gone there and loved it but sadly I have never fancied it. I know that you adore the country. Hope you'll get a chance to go back soon.


Me too Steve. Don't think it will be 'til they join the EU tho', if ever they do join.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Absolutely not one word - to be honest it has never had any appeal to me as a country or a language. I do have an embryonic Turkish web site but I could never get the enthusiasm to develop it.
> 
> I have lots of friends who have gone there and loved it but sadly I have never fancied it. I know that you adore the country. Hope you'll get a chance to go back soon.


good grief!! Steve, we agree on something!!! Its never appealed to me either!!

OOOOPPSSS :focus::focus::focus::focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## lakelander

Chica said:


> I know some people that come unstuck with this flippin malarky. "By off plan and sell it before the final payment". They ended up with a mortgage they didn't want because they couldn't sell it due to the overbuild. Good in its hayday but those days have gone!?!?


Yes Chica,

Unfortunately I have experience of this and that was in the UK. 

I'm sure there are those who would disagree with me but personally I would never buy a property again until I can turn the key in the door and see what i am buying.

We have the same problem here in Ukraine at the moment where people have bought off plan and paid hefty first payments upfront. Now because of the crisis the developers have stopped building and people have no idea when or if their purchase will ever be completed.


----------



## Tallulah

I've found it very interesting in the last year, 18 months, how people apply logic and common sense without stopping to realise for one second that hindsight is 20/20 vision as they say. 

When someone bought a property in the UK, in 2000, say, and sold it 5 years later having made 59% profit, their view was very different to those who bought a property in 2006 and sold it in 2008, for I would imagine, a loss. 

Today people say, don't buy off plan. But not too many years ago, people were buying off plan and doubling their money by the time the place was finished. Clearly it's not as simple as "never buying again" etc etc, but more a case of know the market, choose your time. 

One golden rule I would always follow when buying off plan, for example, is to never deal one-to-one with the builder - but actually go via a bank. The bank would ensure their interests are fully covered. If the builder hits difficulties, the bank will be ahead of the queue in protecting their interests and the individuals who paid from their savings and would be at the back of the queue .... if ever they even get on it. I have one example not a million miles from my distant family where those who didn't have the cash or did, as i say above, who went via a bank for a down payment, got the money refunded from the sale of flats completed, assets, etc. Those who paid cash didn't get a penny back and are still (those who have the finance) in the courts trying to figure out where the money has been hidden. 

Moral of the story : as with everything else, in Spain or elsewhere, there's a right way and a wrong way of doing things. 

Tallulah.x


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Tallulah said:


> I've found it very interesting in the last year, 18 months, how people apply logic and common sense without stopping to realise for one second that hindsight is 20/20 vision as they say.
> 
> Moral of the story : as with everything else, in Spain or elsewhere, there's a right way and a wrong way of doing things.
> 
> Tallulah.x


Spot on my dear


----------



## Caz.I

MadameEspana said:


> We are talking about the Coast here and the decline in general along the main tourist belt. Yes Sir Alan may well turn a once luxury hotel around and bring in the high-spenders but is that all that matters here? He can afford to take a loss if it all goes belly-up. The people have to come to make it a success don't they???High end hotels, restaurants, shops etc are in trouble. We have unfinished buildings all around the area which will fall into decline over the winter months. Ask the man/woman in the street about their homes, cost of living and businesses etc and they will tell you they are very,very anxious and concerned. You are throwing figures at us and quotes from official bodies etc same as we have heard before. Talk about the present, the here and now and what is happening daily to REAL people's lives please not what the hopes and dreams for the future may possibly be. There are no guarantees. We are all a little bit dissillusioned right???


Hi, 
Sorry but have to say something about the Byblos investment. I think we have to take a pragmatic approach.
I think the point here is that (and I am definitely not a businessperson), the Byblos is here already. Yes, the coast's been ruined, and its horrible and we all have to live with the consequences, but this hotel already exists so its either leave it empty or someone invests in it. Pure and simple. Its not about building some kind of massive luxury complex. Its about regenerating what is already there.

If you are bemoaning the likes of Holiday World, therefore, what is the alternative with this building? Those who can afford to invest in it are more than likely going to be looking to maintain its luxury status. No I wouldnt be able to stay there either, but there are always some that can and if it leads to more jobs being created in the meantime, then hopefully that will help the local economy, if only fractionally.

Let's put this in perspective, this investment does not mean Mijas Costa is going to be transformed into that nightmarish place, Dubai. Thankfully.

Whether it works or not is an unknown question, but Alan Sugar, being the hard-nosed businessman that he is, is not going to do something out of the goodness of his heart, so he wouldnt do it unless he is fairly sure he'll be successful. Plus the fact that he is high profile will attract people in.

Personally, I would much rather such people were coming up with more creative, long term solutions and that more business people were really committed to regenerating Spain profoundly to help the people and the economy. Anyway, Steve's being positive for once, so let's enjoy it while it lasts!


----------



## jojo

Caz.I said:


> Hi,
> Sorry but have to say something about the Byblos investment. I think we have to take a pragmatic approach.
> I think the point here is that (and I am definitely not a businessperson), the Byblos is here already. Yes, the coast's been ruined, and its horrible and we all have to live with the consequences, but this hotel already exists so its either leave it empty or someone invests in it. Pure and simple. Its not about building some kind of massive luxury complex. Its about regenerating what is already there.
> 
> If you are bemoaning the likes of Holiday World, therefore, what is the alternative with this building? Those who can afford to invest in it are more than likely going to be looking to maintain its luxury status. No I wouldnt be able to stay there either, but there are always some that can and if it leads to more jobs being created in the meantime, then hopefully that will help the local economy, if only fractionally.
> 
> Let's put this in perspective, this investment does not mean Mijas Costa is going to be transformed into that nightmarish place, Dubai. Thankfully.
> 
> Whether it works or not is an unknown question, but Alan Sugar, being the hard-nosed businessman that he is, is not going to do something out of the goodness of his heart, so he wouldnt do it unless he is fairly sure he'll be successful. Plus the fact that he is high profile will attract people in.
> 
> Personally, I would much rather such people were coming up with more creative, long term solutions and that more business people were really committed to regenerating Spain profoundly to help the people and the economy. Anyway, Steve's being positive for once, so let's enjoy it while it lasts!


If you were a businessman, why on earth would you plough money into an old decaying hotel?? You could spend a fortune doing it up and then what?? Is the area, an area where wealthy folk would want to come on holiday?? What would make this particular hotel any better or more appealing than any of the squillions of others??? and you're still in Fuengirola when you walk out of the door, nowt wrong with that, but its hardly worthy of a "world class" hotel and the cost that would go with it? You'd have to offer something more, something special!

In my opinion, everything has moved up a peg since the 70s. In those days it was only the fairly rich who would travel on an aeroplane and go to Spain for their holidays, and then not every year! The "great unwashed" would go to Bognor, scegness, Blackpool etc... Today, Spain appears to have replaced the english rivera as an inexpensive and regular holiday destination, cos its cheap and quick to get to! For the more exotic and exciting hoiliday destination... well where?? and what are people looking for??


Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> If you were a businessman, why on earth would you plough money into an old decaying hotel?? You could spend a fortune doing it up and then what?? Is the area, an area where wealthy folk would want to come on holiday?? What would make this particular hotel any better or more appealing than any of the squillions of others??? and you're still in Fuengirola when you walk out of the door, nowt wrong with that, but its hardly worthy of a "world class" hotel and the cost that would go with it? You'd have to offer something more, something special!
> 
> In my opinion, everything has moved up a peg since the 70s. In those days it was only the fairly rich who would travel on an aeroplane and go to Spain for their holidays, and then not every year! The "great unwashed" would go to Bognor, scegness, Blackpool etc... Today, Spain appears to have replaced the english rivera as an inexpensive and regular holiday destination, cos its cheap and quick to get to! For the more exotic and exciting hoiliday destination... well where?? and what are people looking for??
> 
> Jo xxx


Like I said, I am not in business, so you would probably be better asking Mr Sugar himself all these questions. I suppose its for the golfing fraternity, though, more than anyone (since there are so many courses there, within a very small radius), and because its close enough to Marbella for wealthier people (though probably not the super rich) to get to (rather than Fuengirola). Yes, things have changed a lot and there are lots more exotic destinations for people these days and several other hotels very near that one, but maybe it would work more as a weekend retreat, as it is more of an upward trend these days. Although i think the other side of Marbella, and further down the coast, Sotogrande, is usually considered to be the playground of the rich.

We'll have to wait and see what Mr Sugar has got up his sleeve.
And if it's worth waiting for!


----------



## MadameEspana

SteveHall said:


> That is a disgraceful insult as anybody who has known what I have done for the last eight years will tell you.
> 
> I am not going to bother asking a mod or Bob to take it down - my track record speaks for itself.
> 
> I think you have only been on this forum for a few days so I suggest that if you want to start throwing xxxx that you look back over a couple of thousand posts and see what I have tried to achieve for the average expat.
> 
> I am REGULARLY and ROUTINELY accused of being too negative and yet when I try to say something positive you choose to twist everything.
> 
> PS Dubai - you OBVIOUSLY know NOTHING about what is happening there - just check the Dubai forum here. Their building boom has burst BIG style.


Ha! ruffled your tail feathers a bit then. I do know about Dubai actually having visited it several times. It is overblown, overpriced and over the top!!! to the point of decadence really. As JoJo said also - kickstarting the Byblos is not the answer. Yes, there will be people coming to have a look etc as they will Novellis in Puerto Banus. It's the latest trend but will they return regularly and for years to come oh! and in the winter months too which are always a struggle for this sector. The only way into the Byblos area is up through a somewhat Industrial area from Fuengirola and not attractive. Hardly inviting to the really wealthy don't you think. Golfers aren't around anymore, exorbitant prices have kept them off the greens. Visiting the Club house last week and talking to the staff there reinforced the opinion that the people are not coming. Make of that what you will Mr. Hall. If you think Sir Alan and one or two other influential people can make Spain great again then you are entitled to that opinion. If nothing else I am REALISTIC about the country I reside in. Are you?????


----------



## jojo

MadameEspana said:


> Ha! ruffled your tail feathers a bit then. I do know about Dubai actually having visited it several times. It is overblown, overpriced and over the top!!! to the point of decadence really. As JoJo said also - kickstarting the Byblos is not the answer. Yes, there will be people coming to have a look etc as they will Novellis in Puerto Banus. It's the latest trend but will they return regularly and for years to come oh! and in the winter months too which are always a struggle for this sector. The only way into the Byblos area is up through a somewhat Industrial area from Fuengirola and not attractive. Hardly inviting to the really wealthy don't you think. Golfers aren't around anymore, exorbitant prices have kept them off the greens. Visiting the Club house last week and talking to the staff there reinforced the opinion that the people are not coming. Make of that what you will Mr. Hall. If you think Sir Alan and one or two other influential people can make Spain great again then you are entitled to that opinion. If nothing else I am REALISTIC about the country I reside in. Are you?????



Right as much as I may agree, I dont want any squabbling and I'll bet the OP doesnt either. There really isnt any point is there. None of us have the money or the "know how" to do any of this at all!! 

So lets go back to the OPs original question. Which really had nothing whatsoever to do with hotels or Alan sugar! 

From what I deduced from his post, he ws looking for something that would bring in a bit of money and wouldnt take up any of his time, so that he could relax and enjoy the fruits of his hard work in the past!!

:focus::focus::focus::focus::focus::focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## MadameEspana

jojo said:


> Right as much as I may agree, I dont want any squabbling and I'll bet the OP doesnt either. There really isnt any point is there. None of us have the money or the "know how" to do any of this at all!!
> 
> So lets go back to the OPs original question. Which really had nothing whatsoever to do with hotels or Alan sugar!
> 
> From what I deduced from his post, he ws looking for something that would bring in a bit of money and wouldnt take up any of his time, so that he could relax and enjoy the fruits of his hard work in the past!!
> 
> :focus::focus::focus::focus::focus::focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


 Couldn't agree more. Getting bored with all of this now. I think the original guy has probably gained some insight into the current situation here. Wish him all the luck in the world with his venture. Over and out. Nice chatting with you :clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## XTreme

Anybody considered that Spainman might actually _be_ Alan Sugar? Stranger things have happened!


----------



## MadameEspana

Ha ha!! now that really made me laugh out loud. You never know in this whacky world hey??


----------



## Chica

XTreme said:


> Anybody considered that Spainman might actually _be_ Alan Sugar? Stranger things have happened!


Well...he wouldn't employ us lot then would he as we haven't come up with one *concrete* thing that spainman can put his money into have we??????? Apart from a sailing school business that is


----------



## XTreme

MadameEspana said:


> Ha ha!! now that really made me laugh out loud. You never know in this whacky world hey??


Exactly Madame! 

_(I keep thinking of brothels when I say that.....not that I've ever been in one of course!)_

The question is....who is real on the Net....and who isn't?

Who's telling the truth.....and who's telling porkies?

It's the endless enigma....like who was Number One in The Prisoner!


----------



## Tallulah

Anger Management conferences and cottage cheese production?


----------



## Tallulah

Oh, that's so out of context now!


----------



## XTreme

Chica said:


> Well...he wouldn't employ us lot then would he as we haven't come up with one *concrete* thing that spainman can put his money into have we??????? Apart from a sailing school business that is


Chica....I suggested donkeys....and I was serious!

There's thousands of miniature donkeys living wild in the dry river beds in Morocco!

Exporting miniature donkeys worldwide.....the Yanks would pay a fortune for them!

The market is ready to be taken!


----------



## Chica

XTreme said:


> Chica....I suggested donkeys....and I was serious!
> 
> There's thousands of miniature donkeys living wild in the dry river beds in Morocco!
> 
> Exporting miniature donkeys worldwide.....the Yanks would pay a fortune for them!
> 
> The market is ready to be taken!


Are we talking about Cueta here as he wants to put his money into Spain?

Why would the yanks want them? As work horses or as pets?

Bet you would like a couple if you had the room??


----------



## XTreme

Chica said:


> Are we talking about Cueta here as he wants to put his money into Spain?
> 
> Why would the yanks want them? As work horses or as pets?
> 
> Bet you would like a couple if you had the room??


Just as pets Chica.....they're too small for anything else.

And yes.....we'd love a couple of them.....but they could never go in with Dylan cos he's a genuine Andaluz, the biggest you can get. And he's a very large.....and considerably overweight Andaluz. And besides that he's totally mad!


----------



## SteveHall

jojo said:


> If you were a businessman, why on earth would you plough money into an old decaying hotel?? You could spend a fortune doing it up and then what?? Is the area, an area where wealthy folk would want to come on holiday?? What would make this particular hotel any better or more appealing than any of the squillions of others??? and you're still in Fuengirola when you walk out of the door, nowt wrong with that, but its hardly worthy of a "world class" hotel and the cost that would go with it? You'd have to offer something more, something special
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


The Byblos is absolutely anything other than "an old decaying hotel". It had 40 million spent on it as recently as 2005. It is in a different league to practically anything else within many, many miles. (Molino del Santo, Parador de Ronda, Parador Gibralfaro?) When you walk out the door you are in Mijas and if you did not want to see us (the great unwashed) in Fuengirola you could turn right!


----------



## SteveHall

Chica said:


> Well...he wouldn't employ us lot then would he as we haven't come up with one *concrete* thing that spainman can put his money into have we??????? Apart from a sailing school business that is


I suggested telecoms, solar and hotels.....which started the conversation about the Byblos ...but a sailing school could be a good business too .....on a coast LOL


----------



## Chica

SteveHall said:


> I suggested telecoms, solar and hotels.....which started the conversation about the Byblos ...but a sailing school could be a good business too .....on a coast LOL


Hahaha....I was joking there really. I wouldn't have the energy these days to start a business although it would be nice to have one here.:clap2::clap2:.:fish2:


----------



## XTreme

Chica said:


> Hahaha....I was joking there really. I wouldn't have the energy these days to start a business although it would be nice to have one here.:clap2::clap2:.:fish2:


You could be an Estate Agent by this time next week Chica!


----------



## Chica

XTreme said:


> You could be an Estate Agent by this time next week Chica!


hahaha....never, never, never. I have a little bit of energy left


----------



## SteveHall

Quote:
Originally Posted by XTreme 
You could be an Estate Agent by this time next week Chica! 

hahaha....never, never, never. I have a little bit of energy left 

.....and far too much integrity!


----------



## Hurricane

Phew, quite a bit of a read this thread eh?


----------



## queby

I haven't read all this thread but having just come back from Spain and Portugal it seems that there is one group of people who do not let the recession affect them......golfers! I don't know what area/type of business to suggest but golfers have to be in very dire straits to give up their game! Surely there must be some business opportunities there?


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## rocco1

Evenin all, we are making plans to move to Spain and today my enquiries took me via the pet passport route .
Rang the vets to be told there is 1 injection initailly then 2 weeks later another then 2 weeks after that there is the blood test then a wait for a month to see if the the vacines are working.
This will cost a total of £650.00 or there abouts for 2 cats and a dog! gud job we love em lol.....

Also checked travel for us all, Eurostar only take seeing dogs but Euro tunnel will take them gladly we will be with them the whole journey dont want to let em outta me sight !

Been doing fair bit of research and the thing that stands out the most is to learn Spanish, luckily hubby is Italian so its a very close crossover in meanings.

We have a few options open to us and initially will rent til we know where to head Almeria was lovely 10 years ago....

Any advice about anything will be greatly recieved.

Take care all

Rocco1


----------



## owdoggy

rocco1 said:


> Evenin all, we are making plans to move to Spain and today my enquiries took me via the pet passport route .
> Rang the vets to be told there is 1 injection initailly then 2 weeks later another then 2 weeks after that there is the blood test then a wait for a month to see if the the vacines are working.
> This will cost a total of £650.00 or there abouts for 2 cats and a dog! gud job we love em lol.....
> 
> Also checked travel for us all, Eurostar only take seeing dogs but Euro tunnel will take them gladly we will be with them the whole journey dont want to let em outta me sight !
> 
> Been doing fair bit of research and the thing that stands out the most is to learn Spanish, luckily hubby is Italian so its a very close crossover in meanings.
> 
> We have a few options open to us and initially will rent til we know where to head Almeria was lovely 10 years ago....
> 
> Any advice about anything will be greatly recieved.
> 
> Take care all
> 
> Rocco1


I think you're paying over the odds for the pet passports. All the dog needs to come to spain is one injection (Rabies) and a blood test (and a chip if needed). Our dog's passport cost us about £120. Dunno about the cats but it still seems a bit on the high side to me.

As far as travel goes, have you thought about the ferry? We brought our dog over on the Portsmouth/Santander route & it was nae bother at all. The mutt had his own kennel and we could go & check on him whenever we wanted.



Doggy


----------



## rocco1

owdoggy said:


> I think you're paying over the odds for the pet passports. All the dog needs to come to spain is one injection (Rabies) and a blood test (and a chip if needed). Our dog's passport cost us about £120. Dunno about the cats but it still seems a bit on the high side to me.
> 
> As far as travel goes, have you thought about the ferry? We brought our dog over on the Portsmouth/Santander route & it was nae bother at all. The mutt had his own kennel and we could go & check on him whenever we wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> Doggy


Hi Doggy, so far Ive only tried one vet's, how long ago out of interest did you travel? 
We have a cat with a heart condition so she will need to be monitored throughout the journey hence eurotunnel to calais and drive down it may be longer but at least I know my cat and if there is something wrong I can act on it where maybe a stranger on a plane wouldnt pick it up.
Aparently the requirement now is too have the two injections, blood test and also something or other for paracites in order to get their passports.
Will check other vets you may be right it did seem a bit excessive so will post on here for others to view when I know.
Rocco1


----------



## jojo

rocco1 said:


> Evenin all, we are making plans to move to Spain and today my enquiries took me via the pet passport route .
> Rang the vets to be told there is 1 injection initailly then 2 weeks later another then 2 weeks after that there is the blood test then a wait for a month to see if the the vacines are working.
> This will cost a total of £650.00 or there abouts for 2 cats and a dog! gud job we love em lol.....
> 
> Also checked travel for us all, Eurostar only take seeing dogs but Euro tunnel will take them gladly we will be with them the whole journey dont want to let em outta me sight !
> 
> Been doing fair bit of research and the thing that stands out the most is to learn Spanish, luckily hubby is Italian so its a very close crossover in meanings.
> 
> We have a few options open to us and initially will rent til we know where to head Almeria was lovely 10 years ago....
> 
> Any advice about anything will be greatly recieved.
> 
> Take care all
> 
> Rocco1


My dogs passports, injections etc were 175pounds each!! Because we used a carrier, ours had to have a certificate to say they were fit to travel which had to be done within 24 hrs of travelling and that was 40pounds each!!! We flew ours and that was the dear bit 300 pounds each

Jo xxx


----------



## rocco1

Hi Jo, yes they do seem to you one way or the other!
As I understand it ther's no standard charge and as usual Vet's seem to be able to charge whatever they like.
Rocco1


----------



## Suenneil

Hiya

Its 5 years since we brought our 2 siamese over so I cant remember the exact amount for the passports but Im sure for the two of them it was around 300 pounds. But then 400 for the air fare!!!!  The thing is if you bring them on a plane no one will be with them anyway ... they go in the hold with the luggage ! Its perfectly safe and our 2 were fine .... but if one has health problems perhaps they wouldnt be allowed to fly anyway.

Presumably this is your usual vet ? If so I would be surprised if they are over charging you ? or maybe they always have ??

I would check out with DEFRA the exact requirements and then get a few more quotes from other vets just in case.

Good luck
Sue :ranger:lane:


----------



## rocco1

Suenneil said:


> Hiya
> 
> Its 5 years since we brought our 2 siamese over so I cant remember the exact amount for the passports but Im sure for the two of them it was around 300 pounds. But then 400 for the air fare!!!!  The thing is if you bring them on a plane no one will be with them anyway ... they go in the hold with the luggage ! Its perfectly safe and our 2 were fine .... but if one has health problems perhaps they wouldnt be allowed to fly anyway.
> 
> Presumably this is your usual vet ? If so I would be surprised if they are over charging you ? or maybe they always have ??
> 
> I would check out with DEFRA the exact requirements and then get a few more quotes from other vets just in case.
> 
> Good luck
> Sue :ranger:lane:



Hi Sue, Lil has a heart condition and is allowed to travel but will need a recent certificate before the journey just to say she is ok.
We have to keep Lil close by as she has tablets 3 x daily and quite honestly I wouldnt trust anyone else to do it on the journey. Lil is a tortie and had a rough start to life, Dino our other cat is a half ferrel, tiny, black and white fluffy chap and very sweet and then there's Rocco.... a 19 mnth Jack Russell from Cornwall weve had from 5 weeks old full of character.
Definately wont be flying, like to keep em with me, will take your advice and 'shop around' tho.

Weather here today is improving (or so they say!) over the next week, gud job as hubby is off next week (and boy does he need the break!) our plan is to really concentrate on gathering more info about renting, work ect.....

Luckily I take my work with me, I'm a Medium, Reiki Practioner, Animal Healer, Aromatherapist, (incl massage) and just studying for my Herbalism cert.

Hubby is a trained chef, builder, ceramic tiler and currently works in the huge plant hire industry.

We want to make sure we are fully informed to lessen any mistakes so listen to all of you advice gratefully.

As time is moving on the excitement about moving is starting to build!

Take care and thanks for your input.

Rocco1


----------



## parispete

To the lucky man who has a quid to invest and looks forward to a comfy life in Spain, hear this. Do NOT buy property in Spain. Here are the reasons. First, the corruption at all levels beggars description. Take the time to check on the number of former mayors and council members who are doing time in the slammer. Add to this the small army of lawyers and hangers-on who were nailed as well, then ask yourself why, just as the heads were beginning to roll, funds to press the investigation up the food chain suddenly dried up. Poor Spain. Dining out on the foreign investor has been the gastronomy of choice for fifty years, and it will run for a long time yet before the EEC finally takes the first brave steps to clean up the costa.
Buying flats for rental return is also fraught with danger. At the first sign of employment sagging, the first thing any government will do (and specially Leftish ones) will be to enact laws preventing eviction of local families due to non-payment of rent caused by job loss. One protection is to issue leases for a max of eleven months, then renew either the lease of the tenant, but this too may soon change as unemployment bites. Buying property for investment is the path of choice now, but you have to have paid cash, or have a couple of years interest payments up your sleeve. If this is on, the profits will be great when things get back to normal.
Others may argue with these views, but they will not know what they are talking about. So good luck with your future under a Spanish sun - it`s a wonderful life for those who understand the local game, and misery and loss for those who don`t.


----------



## Suenneil

parispete said:


> To the lucky man who has a quid to invest and looks forward to a comfy life in Spain, hear this. Do NOT buy property in Spain. Here are the reasons. First, the corruption at all levels beggars description. Take the time to check on the number of former mayors and council members who are doing time in the slammer. Add to this the small army of lawyers and hangers-on who were nailed as well, then ask yourself why, just as the heads were beginning to roll, funds to press the investigation up the food chain suddenly dried up. Poor Spain. Dining out on the foreign investor has been the gastronomy of choice for fifty years, and it will run for a long time yet before the EEC finally takes the first brave steps to clean up the costa.
> Buying flats for rental return is also fraught with danger. At the first sign of employment sagging, the first thing any government will do (and specially Leftish ones) will be to enact laws preventing eviction of local families due to non-payment of rent caused by job loss. One protection is to issue leases for a max of eleven months, then renew either the lease of the tenant, but this too may soon change as unemployment bites. Buying property for investment is the path of choice now, but you have to have paid cash, or have a couple of years interest payments up your sleeve. If this is on, the profits will be great when things get back to normal.
> 
> 
> 
> Others may argue with these views, but they will not know what they are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> So good luck with your future under a Spanish sun - it`s a wonderful life for those who understand the local game, and misery and loss for those who don`t.
Click to expand...

Well I wasnt expecting that post Pete ! Very negative on all fronts .... mmmmmm its always the way that you will have negative comments from people who have suffered as a result of some practice or situation (not only property) but in fairness there are plenty of people out there who had a pretty good experience and continue to do so. Unless you are in a position of Authority that you didnt make us aware of, and carry a Crystal Ball with you at all times I doubt you can justify such a sweeping statement as the one you made above!

Sue :ranger:


----------



## jojo

parispete said:


> To the lucky man who has a quid to invest and looks forward to a comfy life in Spain, hear this. Do NOT buy property in Spain. Here are the reasons. First, the corruption at all levels beggars description. Take the time to check on the number of former mayors and council members who are doing time in the slammer. Add to this the small army of lawyers and hangers-on who were nailed as well, then ask yourself why, just as the heads were beginning to roll, funds to press the investigation up the food chain suddenly dried up. Poor Spain. Dining out on the foreign investor has been the gastronomy of choice for fifty years, and it will run for a long time yet before the EEC finally takes the first brave steps to clean up the costa.
> Buying flats for rental return is also fraught with danger. At the first sign of employment sagging, the first thing any government will do (and specially Leftish ones) will be to enact laws preventing eviction of local families due to non-payment of rent caused by job loss. One protection is to issue leases for a max of eleven months, then renew either the lease of the tenant, but this too may soon change as unemployment bites. Buying property for investment is the path of choice now, but you have to have paid cash, or have a couple of years interest payments up your sleeve. If this is on, the profits will be great when things get back to normal.
> Others may argue with these views, but they will not know what they are talking about. So good luck with your future under a Spanish sun - it`s a wonderful life for those who understand the local game, and misery and loss for those who don`t.



Altho there is a lot truth in what you say, its comments like this that may perpetuate and bring it all down further. If someone wants to move to Spain and buy a property, if they have the money and are set on the idea, do their homeowrk etc... then who cares whats gonna happen to the value of the said preperty. Its only a problem or a risk if you're doing it as an investment... to some, thats not important. To some its about enjoying life in the sun and being happy with their lot

Jo xx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

parispete said:


> To the lucky man who has a quid to invest and looks forward to a comfy life in Spain, hear this. Do NOT buy property in Spain. Here are the reasons. First, the corruption at all levels beggars description. Take the time to check on the number of former mayors and council members who are doing time in the slammer. Add to this the small army of lawyers and hangers-on who were nailed as well, then ask yourself why, just as the heads were beginning to roll, funds to press the investigation up the food chain suddenly dried up. Poor Spain. Dining out on the foreign investor has been the gastronomy of choice for fifty years, and it will run for a long time yet before the EEC finally takes the first brave steps to clean up the costa.
> Buying flats for rental return is also fraught with danger. At the first sign of employment sagging, the first thing any government will do (and specially Leftish ones) will be to enact laws preventing eviction of local families due to non-payment of rent caused by job loss. One protection is to issue leases for a max of eleven months, then renew either the lease of the tenant, but this too may soon change as unemployment bites. Buying property for investment is the path of choice now, but you have to have paid cash, or have a couple of years interest payments up your sleeve. If this is on, the profits will be great when things get back to normal.
> Others may argue with these views, but they will not know what they are talking about. So good luck with your future under a Spanish sun - it`s a wonderful life for those who understand the local game, and misery and loss for those who don`t.


WOW, you got burned, didn't you!!?:flame:
I think it's a good idea to see negative opinions on the forum. It isn't all sun and wine out here. And I think people have to think about what they are doing. I for one would never invest in property in a market that I don't understand, a different culture and a different language.
It has to be said though that plenty do, and thank the Gods that they did. They live a better life than they did in England. You need to do your homework big time to invest in property in both the UK and Spain


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## parispete

*Read my last post - and remember.*



Pesky Wesky said:


> WOW, you got burned, didn't you!!?:flame:
> I think it's a good idea to see negative opinions on the forum. It isn't all sun and wine out here. And I think people have to think about what they are doing. I for one would never invest in property in a market that I don't understand, a different culture and a different language.
> It has to be said though that plenty do, and thank the Gods that they did. They live a better life than they did in England. You need to do your homework big time to invest in property in both the UK and Spain



Yes, it`s true that my early efforts to buy property in Spain reads like a comic operetta with a cast of unusually seedy characters. But a few decent lawyers eventually straightened everything out and now life is good again. However, memories of hard times are not easily laid to rest. And fora like this one fairly abound with hard luck stories by good folk who fell between the cracks of a system that should have worked, but let them down. 
Buying a property usually works out reasonably well - unless your timing is off and you suffer a price downturn like has happened recently. But if you choose to ignore a large black fin simply because you think you`re in a bath tub, you have only yourself to blame. For example, how often have you heard an estate agent say `you don`t need a lawyer, the system`s foolproof`? It`s true that having your own man check the escritura preparation, adjustment of taxes on settlement etc is often money you could well have not spent, but, as the old real estate motto runs - `You only have to be wrong once` and you could end up ruined. 
Such as the mainly Brits who built new houses around Marbella, then, after the council went to Jail, had to pay to have their own houses bulldozed. 
In this case, several lawyers were in on the scam and would have been no help, but here`s how you find a good one. Law in Spain tends to run in families and the main lawyer who saw me safely out of strife had both dad and grandfather who had also held legal office. So tip one is never use a lawyer suggested by an estate agent - get a list of names from your embassy or from your bank. 
But with the increasing number of dud lawyers, even this safety net can come adrift. A recent lawyer recommendation from an Australian embassy in a prominent national capital turned out so badly that other lawyers had to be called in to save a substantial part of an old Aussie`s life savings. It is indeed unfortunate that the very people charged with protecting their clients are now among the sharks circling the newly retired who decide to live overseas. But anyone trained in the law has a ringside seat in running the system for his own benefit. It`s called greed, and as Michael Douglas (aka Gordon Gekko) famously observed `greed is good`. Like a second opinion in medecine, a backup lawyer is lately (and unfortunately) close to a necessary reality.
So please do not read my comments as in any sense anti real estate, or anti-Spanish because I have gone through the trials of ten men just to have my life on the costa. Just bear in mind the old saying - `anyone who ignores the lessons of history will be condemned to relive them` and make your own Spanish experience a lot easier to bear than mine was.


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## Suenneil

parispete said:


> Yes, it`s true that my early efforts to buy property in Spain reads like a comic operetta with a cast of unusually seedy characters. But a few decent lawyers eventually straightened everything out and now life is good again. However, memories of hard times are not easily laid to rest. And fora like this one fairly abound with hard luck stories by good folk who fell between the cracks of a system that should have worked, but let them down.
> Buying a property usually works out reasonably well - unless your timing is off and you suffer a price downturn like has happened recently. But if you choose to ignore a large black fin simply because you think you`re in a bath tub, you have only yourself to blame. For example, how often have you heard an estate agent say `you don`t need a lawyer, the system`s foolproof`? It`s true that having your own man check the escritura preparation, adjustment of taxes on settlement etc is often money you could well have not spent, but, as the old real estate motto runs - `You only have to be wrong once` and you could end up ruined.
> Such as the mainly Brits who built new houses around Marbella, then, after the council went to Jail, had to pay to have their own houses bulldozed.
> In this case, several lawyers were in on the scam and would have been no help, but here`s how you find a good one.
> 
> 
> 
> Law in Spain tends to run in families and the main lawyer who saw me safely out of strife had both dad and grandfather who had also held legal office. So tip one is never use a lawyer suggested by an estate agent - get a list of names from your embassy or from your bank.
> 
> 
> 
> But with the increasing number of dud lawyers, even this safety net can come adrift. A recent lawyer recommendation from an Australian embassy in a prominent national capital turned out so badly that other lawyers had to be called in to save a substantial part of an old Aussie`s life savings. It is indeed unfortunate that the very people charged with protecting their clients are now among the sharks circling the newly retired who decide to live overseas. But anyone trained in the law has a ringside seat in running the system for his own benefit. It`s called greed, and as Michael Douglas (aka Gordon Gekko) famously observed `greed is good`. Like a second opinion in medecine, a backup lawyer is lately (and unfortunately) close to a necessary reality.
> So please do not read my comments as in any sense anti real estate, or anti-Spanish because I have gone through the trials of ten men just to have my life on the costa. Just bear in mind the old saying - `anyone who ignores the lessons of history will be condemned to relive them` and make your own Spanish experience a lot easier to bear than mine was.
Click to expand...



HIya Pete

I think its important to note that the lists of Lawyers kept by Embassies and Banks are usually just that - a list. You will see on Embassy sites that they "do not recommend these Lawyers" but that its purely a list so clients can start contacting a few and going their own research.
Im not sure if the "family connection" per se gives you a better chance of finding a good Lawyer - a good Lawyer is a good Lawyer irrespective of whether their father was one or not. I actually work for a large Law Firm here and it is "family" owned - but I dont believe that gives it any more credibility - the credibility comes from the ethics and standards of the whole practice and the individual Lawyers within that practice. 

A good way to start of check for any potential Lawyer is to find out the "Bar" where they are registered in Spain, you can check this for Law firms and the individual Lawyers who work for them.

Sorry you had such a bad time of it - but pleased to hear that you seem to have got it sorted in the end.

Sue :ranger:


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## Pesky Wesky

parispete said:


> Yes, it`s true that my early efforts to buy property in Spain reads like a comic operetta with a cast of unusually seedy characters. But a few decent lawyers eventually straightened everything out and now life is good again. However, memories of hard times are not easily laid to rest.
> 
> So please do not read my comments as in any sense anti real estate, or anti-Spanish because I have gone through the trials of ten men just to have my life on the costa. Just bear in mind the old saying - `anyone who ignores the lessons of history will be condemned to relive them` and make your own Spanish experience a lot easier to bear than mine was.




Glad to hear everything was worked out in the end and that your negative experiences haven't cancelled out all the positives that Spain has to offer.


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## parispete

*I`m no lawyer-basher - just a realist*



Suenneil said:


> HIya Pete
> 
> I think its important to note that the lists of Lawyers kept by Embassies and Banks are usually just that - a list. You will see on Embassy sites that they "do not recommend these Lawyers" but that its purely a list so clients can start contacting a few and going their own research.
> Im not sure if the "family connection" per se gives you a better chance of finding a good Lawyer - a good Lawyer is a good Lawyer irrespective of whether their father was one or not. I actually work for a large Law Firm here and it is "family" owned - but I dont believe that gives it any more credibility - the credibility comes from the ethics and standards of the whole practice and the individual Lawyers within that practice.
> 
> A good way to start of check for any potential Lawyer is to find out the "Bar" where they are registered in Spain, you can check this for Law firms and the individual Lawyers who work for them.
> 
> Sorry you had such a bad time of it - but pleased to hear that you seem to have got it sorted in the end.
> 
> Sue :ranger:


Hi, Sue, good to have your input. No, my comments were in no way an exercise in lawyer-bashing, just an underlining of the need to trust only the trustworthy. As I said, lawyers are generally set high in public esteem, and are therefore among the last to be seen as fallible when it comes to lining their pockets at their clients` expense. But it does happen, and when it does, action against them can be extremely difficult. I once sued a prominent doctor and my attorney was warned to expect no help from the medical profession, despite the fact that I subsequently won the case. Finding a lawyer to sue another lawyer works unfortunately along the same lines.
But the good ones are out there - and I guess the problem is how to find them among others who may not be as reputable. 
You are quite correct in reminding me that embassies and banks do not recommend lawyers on their list. In fact, the case I mentioned was that of a deadbeat lawyer trying to horn in on the easy money to be made simply from appearing on the `bilingual` list of a prominent embassy. Another `lawyer` advertising in a main European city is not a lawyer, merely a translator offering legal advice, but charging hourly fees at lawyer rates. I`m sure that you and any member of this forum would be delighted to help out any newbie lost for a good legal recommendation, but a remarkable number of new arrivals (Marbella was only the worst of several troubled locations) still get into bother. Another weakness in the property system is in the field of `finance brokers`, many of whom are excellent, but some not so. The `management fees` often asked for upfront usually are a warning sign that trouble lies ahead - another sign is a brokerage commission above 1 percent (over the loan rate). But the main pitfall of new arrivals seeking to build (even when the plot is legal and not designated parkland) is the absolute need for a project manager. A good one of these will safeguard the new arrival against everything from substandard materials to dodgy subcontractors, as well as the everpresent risk of builders going broke before the job is completed and signed off. I make these comments simply because all of the above happen routinely in the real estate jungle - far from the shiny photos of birds throwing beachballs and couples clinking champagne glasses on the balcony of their new home.
The fact that your own employer is a family law firm does in no way imply that all who are not are automatically bad - it merely implies that all who are - are more than likely good. 
At the end of the day I reiterate my early comment that corruption certainly exists - not just in Spain, but all over. 
But Spain is and has long been the country of choice for many new arrivals, so it seems only sensible (to me, at least) that a more wholehearted attempt be made to make the local system absolutely transparent. This should bring to a timely end the disasters that have befallen so many poor wretches seeking new and better lives on my beloved Costa del Sol.


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## Suenneil

parispete said:


> Hi, Sue, good to have your input. No, my comments were in no way an exercise in lawyer-bashing, just an underlining of the need to trust only the trustworthy. As I said, lawyers are generally set high in public esteem, and are therefore among the last to be seen as fallible when it comes to lining their pockets at their clients` expense. But it does happen, and when it does, action against them can be extremely difficult. I once sued a prominent doctor and my attorney was warned to expect no help from the medical profession, despite the fact that I subsequently won the case. Finding a lawyer to sue another lawyer works unfortunately along the same lines.
> But the good ones are out there - and I guess the problem is how to find them among others who may not be as reputable.
> You are quite correct in reminding me that embassies and banks do not recommend lawyers on their list. In fact, the case I mentioned was that of a deadbeat lawyer trying to horn in on the easy money to be made simply from appearing on the `bilingual` list of a prominent embassy. Another `lawyer` advertising in a main European city is not a lawyer, merely a translator offering legal advice, but charging hourly fees at lawyer rates. I`m sure that you and any member of this forum would be delighted to help out any newbie lost for a good legal recommendation, but a remarkable number of new arrivals (Marbella was only the worst of several troubled locations) still get into bother. Another weakness in the property system is in the field of `finance brokers`, many of whom are excellent, but some not so. The `management fees` often asked for upfront usually are a warning sign that trouble lies ahead - another sign is a brokerage commission above 1 percent (over the loan rate). But the main pitfall of new arrivals seeking to build (even when the plot is legal and not designated parkland) is the absolute need for a project manager. A good one of these will safeguard the new arrival against everything from substandard materials to dodgy subcontractors, as well as the everpresent risk of builders going broke before the job is completed and signed off. I make these comments simply because all of the above happen routinely in the real estate jungle - far from the shiny photos of birds throwing beachballs and couples clinking champagne glasses on the balcony of their new home.
> The fact that your own employer is a family law firm does in no way imply that all who are not are automatically bad - it merely implies that all who are - are more than likely good.
> At the end of the day I reiterate my early comment that corruption certainly exists - not just in Spain, but all over.
> But Spain is and has long been the country of choice for many new arrivals, so it seems only sensible (to me, at least) that a more wholehearted attempt be made to make the local system absolutely transparent. This should bring to a timely end the disasters that have befallen so many poor wretches seeking new and better lives on my beloved Costa del Sol.




Morning Pete

A comprehensive reply ! and I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. Of course tighter regulations and controls over Lawyers, Financial Advisors, Mortgage Providers, Surveyors, Notaries etc etc would hopefully reduce the risk of bad practice and bad advice - but as you say this is just a problem in Spain - I think perhaps it is more "obvious" in Spain given the sheer volume of overseas investors / buyers that came into the market in the last few decades., and again a lot of these were British so bad practice and disaster stories would have been reported in the British press ..... I have no doubt that there has been (and still is) corruption, bad practice and advice been experienced - but I wish I could get a definitive figure as to how this balances out with the succesful purchases etc - just to get a truer picture of the reality.

At the end of the day we have to exercise the same levels of caution when looking for services / goods wherever we live or are considering living ..... and also do as much research as possible.....minimising the risks and hopefully ending up with a positive result.

Sue :ranger:


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## parispete

Suenneil said:


> Morning Pete
> 
> A comprehensive reply ! and I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. Of course tighter regulations and controls over Lawyers, Financial Advisors, Mortgage Providers, Surveyors, Notaries etc etc would hopefully reduce the risk of bad practice and bad advice - but as you say this is just a problem in Spain - I think perhaps it is more "obvious" in Spain given the sheer volume of overseas investors / buyers that came into the market in the last few decades., and again a lot of these were British so bad practice and disaster stories would have been reported in the British press ..... I have no doubt that there has been (and still is) corruption, bad practice and advice been experienced - but I wish I could get a definitive figure as to how this balances out with the succesful purchases etc - just to get a truer picture of the reality.
> 
> At the end of the day we have to exercise the same levels of caution when looking for services / goods wherever we live or are considering living ..... and also do as much research as possible.....minimising the risks and hopefully ending up with a positive result.
> 
> Sue :ranger:


Spot on, Sue. What I really hope is that intending investors or those about to build might get the habit of consulting these columns before the stars in their eyes about living in the sun blind them to the obvious risks of poor results.
I`m sure that with your knowledge of the Spanish legal scene, and good advice from others reading this column, you might combine to knock out a list of good guys in whose hands a newbie might feel absolutely safe.
Most deals, it goes without saying, work out really well - as one would expect. It is only the poor sods who get done like dinners that I feel sorry for.


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## richie rich

HI Spain Man,
I was doing a bit of research over the weekend, as, like you, I'm looking to relocate to Spain. While I was hunting around on a site called madridteachers.com I came across a company called Windsor Idiomas. I read that they're looking for investors. They're an english language school, that , from the face of it, seem reasonably well run, but more than that, I have no idea, but it may be of use to get in touch with them. THere's a character on here called 'pesky wesky' who seems to have his finger on the pulse in regards to teachers and educational companies,..maybe have a look at the site and then get in touch with him to see if he knows anything about them. 
Good luck in your search.
Cheers
Rich


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## Chica

richie rich said:


> HI Spain Man,
> I was doing a bit of research over the weekend, as, like you, I'm looking to relocate to Spain. While I was hunting around on a site called madridteachers.com I came across a company called Windsor Idiomas. I read that they're looking for investors. They're an english language school, that , from the face of it, seem reasonably well run, but more than that, I have no idea, but it may be of use to get in touch with them. THere's a character on here called 'pesky wesky' who seems to have his finger on the pulse in regards to teachers and educational companies,..maybe have a look at the site and then get in touch with him to see if he knows anything about them.
> Good luck in your search.
> Cheers
> Rich


Ahem...... I really don't want to embarrass you but Pesky Wesky is female.:behindsofa:


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## richie rich

ooops, many apologies to pesky )))


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## Pesky Wesky

Chica said:


> Ahem...... I really don't want to embarrass you but Pesky Wesky is female.:behindsofa:


It's all true folks!!!!!!!
I have noticed how it's really difficult to work out someone's sex from their comments sometimes. 
As for the Windsor school, I may be able to get an idea of where they're now with the business at by asking a friend. Richie is right though, they are a serious school, i just don't know what's happenning to them business wise at the mo


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## Calas felices

I admire the optimism that everyone is showing but I think things are gojng to get worse before they get better. Certainly I beleive that it is not a good time to start putting down roots. By all means rent a place and get the lie of the land but whatever you do don't give up a base in the UK -at least you can return if things don't work out which is a lot harder to do if you emigrate permanently. 

Since Spain joined the EU it has been a net recipient of EU finds. Like Ireland they were given to enable the country to develop businesses et that would help them in the future. Unfortunately Spain decided to put all it's eggs in one basket and built thousands of house of which a large majority are lying empty and likely to remain so. I love the optimism of one of the posters who said 'when tourists come back'.. I don't beleive tourists will come back nor housebuyers as I think they have had their fingers burnt once (ior know someone who has) and are not going to risk it again. Next year Spain is going to have to pay into the EU budget instead of taking out and I fear that it will struggle to raise the necessary funds to do this. Sorry to be negative but all the corrupt practices, the black money, the land grab, etc etc are not going to be forgotten too easily by the public and potential punters.


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## Chica

Calas felices said:


> I admire the optimism that everyone is showing but I think things are gojng to get worse before they get better. Certainly I beleive that it is not a good time to start putting down roots. By all means rent a place and get the lie of the land but whatever you do don't give up a base in the UK -at least you can return if things don't work out which is a lot harder to do if you emigrate permanently.
> 
> Since Spain joined the EU it has been a net recipient of EU finds. Like Ireland they were given to enable the country to develop businesses et that would help them in the future. Unfortunately Spain decided to put all it's eggs in one basket and built thousands of house of which a large majority are lying empty and likely to remain so. I love the optimism of one of the posters who said 'when tourists come back'.. I don't beleive tourists will come back nor housebuyers as I think they have had their fingers burnt once (ior know someone who has) and are not going to risk it again. Next year Spain is going to have to pay into the EU budget instead of taking out and I fear that it will struggle to raise the necessary funds to do this. Sorry to be negative but all the corrupt practices, the black money, the land grab, etc etc are not going to be forgotten too easily by the public and potential punters.


I agree with you to certain degree. I think Spain should be thinking outside the box as far as its future goes! Someone once posted that foreign businesses had been turned down because the owners did not speak very good spanish!? Which is more important?? To diversify and bring in revenue and jobs from different areas or insist that owners of businesses are fluent in spanish, there is always help with this?! It takes a great deal of time to become fluent and in the meantime they look elsewhere. I find this very short sighted. OK, tart up tourism but to sink all that money into what MAY happen could be a loss for future businesses and employment.


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## richie rich

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's all true folks!!!!!!!
> I have noticed how it's really difficult to work out someone's sex from their comments sometimes.
> As for the Windsor school, I may be able to get an idea of where they're now with the business at by asking a friend. Richie is right though, they are a serious school, i just don't know what's happenning to them business wise at the mo


Hi Pesky,..sorry about the slip up 
I was wondering if you could keep me appraised on what you find out about Windsor. As i may have mentioned, I'm seriously looking to work as a TEFL teacher in Spain and so far, Vaughan seems to be the most compatible with my background. ( i have a strong business/ HR background rather than academic) Having said that, I really liked what Windsor had written, they seem to understand that it's their teachers that make the company what it is and I admire that approach.
Vaughan seem quite Darwinian in their attitude and while I can respect that, I do not necessarily agree that it's the right way to keep clients.
Any other advice or recommendations you can give would be much appreciated.
Cheers
Rich


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## Pesky Wesky

richie rich said:


> Hi Pesky,..sorry about the slip up
> I was wondering if you could keep me appraised on what you find out about Windsor. As i may have mentioned, I'm seriously looking to work as a TEFL teacher in Spain and so far, Vaughan seems to be the most compatible with my background. ( i have a strong business/ HR background rather than academic) Having said that, I really liked what Windsor had written, they seem to understand that it's their teachers that make the company what it is and I admire that approach.
> Vaughan seem quite Darwinian in their attitude and while I can respect that, I do not necessarily agree that it's the right way to keep clients.
> Any other advice or recommendations you can give would be much appreciated.
> Cheers
> Rich


Will keep you posted via pm


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## MovingtoSpain

rocco1 said:


> Hi Jo, yes they do seem to you one way or the other!
> As I understand it ther's no standard charge and as usual Vet's seem to be able to charge whatever they like.
> Rocco1


Just on the cat/vet issue (know nothing about property purchase so staying out of that one!), I don't think that's unreasonable, it cost us a fortune to bring our cat over in June by the time she'd had the jabs (he recommended two, to be sure the blood test would be OK), and the blood test and so on. Our cat's also quite nervous so they had to sedate her to take the test which took more time/money.

One option is also to bring the cat in the cabin with Iberia, but it may not work for you because it's only one animal per flight. We did it this way and it works out really quite cheap, £35 or so, and is also fairly low stress, though it's all relative...our cat behaved and we had some interesting experiences at the airport as it's quite a novelty! Downside is you can't bring them back that way, it's in the hold due to UK laws.


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## Suenneil

*Private property cheaper than social housing*

Wasnt sure where to post this .... so chose a thread related to moving here (so potentially buying??)

Anyway ..... basically an article today in a Property Magazine I subscribe to saying that at the moment private property is now cheaper to buy than subsidised social housing in Spain!

It wont be in all areas - so Im assuming its based on average prices around the Country....

Sue :ranger:

SPAIN’S PRIVATE PROPERTY ‘CHEAPER THAN SOCIAL HOUSING’
Spain, social housing, G-14

Private property in Spain is often now cheaper than social housing, according to a Spanish newspaper.

Prices in the Barcelona region have fallen so much that in at least 36 of the 53 biggest municipalities, subsidised housing was more expensive than private property sold by developers, reported El Pais.

In theory, price-controlled homes provided by the government should cost around 75% of property on the free market. But in some cases, social housing is almost 20% more expensive.

The Environment and Housing Department of the regional government admitted there had been a “narrowing” in prices and said it planned to reduce the price of land sold to developers for subsidised housing projects.

Average house prices have fallen 13% from the December 2007 peak and prices on the coast are down almost 18%, according to the Tinsa House Price Index. New build prices have fallen by more than 20% in some locations.

Falling prices and the glut of unsold properties in Spain have led many developers to stop building altogether. No new private homes were built by any of the G-14 group of the country’s biggest developers between December 2008 and May 2009. The group plans to build just 500 homes by the end of the year.


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