# Animal welfare - recourse beyond police and charities



## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

Is there any group above the police and local dog charities who is active in changing animal welfare standards here in Spain? 

I've been in tears today after seeing photos that supposedly prove suitable kennel arrangements for loads of dogs being kept in a house right behind us. The photos show 8 in 3 cells but apparently they have up to 21 dogs, in 6 cells. They are bare concrete, each cell about 3 feet by 9, no windows just a a couple of bricks knocked out. We reported them because they bark all night, every night, without let up. The police went round and said the kennel standards are acceptable under the law. They have water and an automated sewage system but no comfort whatsoever. We never hear them in the garden so presumably they are only allowed out when they go hunting. 

I'm not a bleeding heart idiot, I don't get all upset about a working dog being kept in a comfortable outdoor kennel with a run, but this supposedly ok set up is appalling. Its bad enough that we have disturbed sleep every single night despite sleeping on the other side of the house (I'm worried about our future guests) but to see what these poor dogs have to live with is horrible. 

Sorry, I really needed to rant. My nerves are shredded by noise (apparently they dont bark when the police go round but I'm guessing thats because the owner is there!) and I'm upset. Sorry!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Kikie said:


> Is there any group above the police and local dog charities who is active in changing animal welfare standards here in Spain?
> 
> I've been in tears today after seeing photos that supposedly prove suitable kennel arrangements for loads of dogs being kept in a house right behind us. The photos show 8 in 3 cells but apparently they have up to 21 dogs, in 6 cells. They are bare concrete, each cell about 3 feet by 9, no windows just a a couple of bricks knocked out. We reported them because they bark all night, every night, without let up. The police went round and said the kennel standards are acceptable under the law. They have water and an automated sewage system but no comfort whatsoever. We never hear them in the garden so presumably they are only allowed out when they go hunting.
> 
> ...


SEPRONA ( Servicio de Protección de la Naturaleza) is the division of the guardia civil that deals with environmental issues, so maybe it's worth getting in touch with them. 062 is an emergency guardia civil number attended 24/7. I can't find one for Valencia. You could also phone the nearest guardia and ask to be passed to SEPRONA
It seems that you need to either focus on the disturbance caused to you and so therefore you need the police or guardia, not sure which, to witness the noise by going to your house at night, or to focus on the animals' welfare. If the kennels are deemed ok by law there's little you can do about that except to say that you don't agree. You could report the idea that they are kept locked up all the time


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> SEPRONA ( Servicio de Protección de la Naturaleza) is the division of the guardia civil that deals with environmental issues, so maybe it's worth getting in touch with them. 062 is an emergency guardia civil number attended 24/7. I can't find one for Valencia. You could also phone the nearest guardia and ask to be passed to SEPRONA
> It seems that you need to either focus on the disturbance caused to you and so therefore you need the police or guardia, not sure which, to witness the noise by going to your house at night, or to focus on the animals' welfare. If the kennels are deemed ok by law there's little you can do about that except to say that you don't agree. You could report the idea that they are kept locked up all the time


What about Video evidence? Does that stand up, it would show the conditions and the noise


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> What about Video evidence? Does that stand up, it would show the conditions and the noise


I *think* the noise has to be measured by ??(who exactly I don't know) in situ, but it might serve as an initial visit to the GC


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## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

*Video etc*



Megsmum said:


> What about Video evidence? Does that stand up, it would show the conditions and the noise


Unfortunately the police have seen the conditions and say they are fine. It is the noise we are trying to prove now but the dogs didn't bark when the owner met with the police at the property. We provided audio clips from a couple of times during the night but they seem to be shrugging their shoulders at that.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Kikie said:


> Unfortunately the police have seen the conditions and say they are fine. It is the noise we are trying to prove now but the dogs didn't bark when the owner met with the police at the property. We provided audio clips from a couple of times during the night but they seem to be shrugging their shoulders at that.
> View attachment 87618


So call them to your house at night when it's happening


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

The dogs in the photo are clearly badly under-fed, starving, in fact.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Kikie said:


> Is there any group above the police and local dog charities who is active in changing animal welfare standards here in Spain?
> 
> I've been in tears today after seeing photos that supposedly prove suitable kennel arrangements for loads of dogs being kept in a house right behind us. The photos show 8 in 3 cells but apparently they have up to 21 dogs, in 6 cells. They are bare concrete, each cell about 3 feet by 9, no windows just a a couple of bricks knocked out. We reported them because they bark all night, every night, without let up. The police went round and said the kennel standards are acceptable under the law. They have water and an automated sewage system but no comfort whatsoever. We never hear them in the garden so presumably they are only allowed out when they go hunting.
> 
> ...



Posted in error, Mods please delete, thanks.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Kikie said:


> Is there any group above the police and local dog charities who is active in changing animal welfare standards here in Spain?
> 
> I've been in tears today after seeing photos that supposedly prove suitable kennel arrangements for loads of dogs being kept in a house right behind us. The photos show 8 in 3 cells but apparently they have up to 21 dogs, in 6 cells. They are bare concrete, each cell about 3 feet by 9, no windows just a a couple of bricks knocked out. We reported them because they bark all night, every night, without let up. The police went round and said the kennel standards are acceptable under the law. They have water and an automated sewage system but no comfort whatsoever. We never hear them in the garden so presumably they are only allowed out when they go hunting.
> 
> ...


In a nutshell, the answer is no. I am President of a dog rescue charity and I have to constantly tell people that we have no more power to bring about action than they as individuals and that we are not the Spanish equivalent of the RSPCA (I wish we were).
Standards of animal welfare are not as those taken as the norm in Northern Europe and much depends on the attitude of the individual police officer. Last week we managed, with police co=operation, to get back a dog which had been rehomed from our perrera the previous week and passed on to a mentally unstable family member who was unable to properly care for the poor dog. We were however helped by a kind animalista police officer and the support of indignant neighbours (all involved in this being Spanish).

What does surprise me however is the number of dogs this individual has. I may be wrong but I believe that no more than six animals may be kept on domestic premises. More than that and a licence known as a Nucleo Zoologico is required, something not that simple to acquire. It's more likely that something will be done if the proper licences aren't issued for this property.

I'm afraid you have to swallow a lot that wouldn't be tolerated in the UK, Holland or Scandinavia. Whenever I deal with calls from people who get frustrated at the lack of action in these cases and I get told :'It wouldn't happen in the UK.Sweden/Holland/Norway or wherever' I point out gently that this is Spain, that slowly customs are changing and that in reality much abuse of animals goes on in the more aware countries too.

The hopeful sign, for us at least, is that more and more Spanish people of all ages are aware of the need for change and are working with local animal charities in many ways to hasten that change.


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## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

*Dogs*



chrisnation said:


> The dogs in the photo are clearly badly under-fed, starving, in fact.


Thats what I thought. The others look a bit better. But the police say they are fine and the owner 'has a passion for hunting dogs' and cares for them. :-(


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I *think* the noise has to be measured by ??(who exactly I don't know) in situ, but it might serve as an initial visit to the GC


The local authority is responsible for infractions of the law contra contaminacion acustica...
A couple of years ago I helped a local community get an enforcement order against a commercial establishment that created considerable noise nuisance. The Community had to pay for engineers to measure the noise and liaise with the Ayuntamiento which issued a fine and banned further outdoor music.
Some Aytos may have their own facility for measuring for excessive noise, I don't know.
One of my neighbours successfully dealt with the noise of barking dogs kept on a huerta next to her house by calling the Policia Local to come in the early hours when the dogs disturbed her.
A few years ago our immediate neighbour added a cockerel to his livestock, a very early and noisy one. Luckily it annoyed them as much as it did us so one day all was silent at 4 a.m.....


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Kikie said:


> Unfortunately the police have seen the conditions and say they are fine. It is the noise we are trying to prove now but the dogs didn't bark when the owner met with the police at the property. We provided audio clips from a couple of times during the night but they seem to be shrugging their shoulders at that.
> View attachment 87618


You will see from my thread "Next door flat is a dog's WC - literally" that this is a difficult problem to get progress on.

I think it is a year ago today that the bomberos broke into my neighbour's flat, letting a couple of police officers make an inspection and report on the dreadful situation in this woman's flat.

A _denuncia _was pasted by a police officer to her door in September last. (_una inmueble insalubridad_),

A couple of months ago I found her dog running around in the street, saw her door was open - usually she will not open it to anyone, including the social services and building management - and called the police. The female officer pulled her scarf over her nose and mouth as she went into this flat. A note was taken of the _denuncia_. I presume the officers made another report on what they had seen.

Now, 12 months since the original police inspection, 7 months since the issuing of the _denuncia_, nothing has been done, either on the grounds of animal welfare - the dog is kept in this flat 24/7 - or public health/hygiene ( the dog shoots out onto the landing when the woman returns to her flat, leaving streaks of dog **** on the tiles from its paws, so imagine what the floor of this flat must be like).

The original police report, following the inspection last May, included the assessment that this woman was not a fit and responsible person to keep animal 8she has a cat, too). But, to date, nothing has been done.

Her dog used to bark all day long. Since she had a stay in hospital (she has colon cancer) it now rarely barks during the day. I believe she is giving the dog some of her medication to sedate it. Occasional she must forget because the dog reverts to a non-stop barking machine.

As the building manager said to me "Animal welfare law in Spain is not like in UK - not even close" Seems he is, regrettably, perfectly right.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Addendum: Every time I ask someone who is in a position to know, /SNIP/ my gestora and a dog registration association, all anybody ever tells me about dealing with this problem is "call the police".

It is ludicrous that the police have to have anything to do with issues lie this, other than to protect anyone sent to a property to inspect it or confront the owner of animals.

Just to dot the i's ....my neighbour also has mental health problems. Alcohol/severe depression - possibly the other way round. Under the circumstances one would think that a number of civic agencies would be getting stuck in to help her, her animals and us, her neighbours, live more congenial lives.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

"Luckily it annoyed them as much as it did us so one day all was silent at 4 a.m....."

Haha! Coq au vin!


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

".... much abuse of animals goes on in the more aware countries too"

Sadly, true. And other abuse , as well. The big difference is in the attitude of the authorities in those countries to that abuse. 

Spain has badly let itself down regarding the trial of the 'La Manada' case. "_One of the judges on the three-member panel that tried the case called for the men to be acquitted of all charges" (_EL PAÍS English Edition)

With friends like that, what kind of enemies must law-abiding Spanish people and helpless animals need?


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Kikie said:


> Thats what I thought. The others look a bit better. But the police say they are fine and the owner 'has a passion for hunting dogs' and cares for them. :-(
> View attachment 87626


The police said that? Taking the easy way out.

Reminds me that on the occasion when the police broke into my neighbour's flat,_ just_ as the animal welfare people were about to remove the dog and the cat (the police had called them in), the woman's son turned up (must have been tipped off by a neighbour) and told the police that he would be "responsible" for seeing that the animals were well cared for.

The police swallowed that, sent the animal welfare people away and things went on exactly as before.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There is a Spanish pressure group/political party called PACMA - Partido Animalista contra Maltrato Animal - which is steadily making a difference. Join or make a contribution if you care about animal welfare. Every little helps. https://pacma.es/


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

chrisnation said:


> The dogs in the photo are clearly badly under-fed, starving, in fact.


If they are hunting dogs, they may be galgos. Galgos resemble skinny greyhounds. They often look half- starved but if they are used for hunting they will be fed and looked after until they are no longer useful as hunting dogs when they will be disposed of, often cruelly by being abandoned, drowned, hanged or bludgeoned to death.
We once took in a galgo someone found hanging, he cut it down in time. 
Podencos are another breed of hunting dog frequently thrown out when no longer of use. We have very many in our kennels. 
This breed is rare elsewhere in Europe and is fortunately popular in Holland and Scandinavia, where many of our Pods find homes.
Bodegueros, another hunting breed, are popular in Germany.


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## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

*Hunting dogs*



mrypg9 said:


> If they are hunting dogs, they may be galgos. Galgos resemble skinny greyhounds. They often look half- starved but if they are used for hunting they will be fed and looked after until they are no longer useful as hunting dogs when they will be disposed of, often cruelly by being abandoned, drowned, hanged or bludgeoned to death.
> We once took in a galgo someone found hanging, he cut it down in time.
> Podencos are another breed of hunting dog frequently thrown out when no longer of use. We have very many in our kennels.
> This breed is rare elsewhere in Europe and is fortunately popular in Holland and Scandinavia, where many of our Pods find homes.
> Bodegueros, another hunting breed, are popular in Germany.


According to the police report they are Podenco Andaluz. Which puzzles me as I thought they were quiet, docile dogs. Out of curiousity, how do they use these dogs for hunting? Flushing out boar? Rabbits? Retrieving rabbits and birds?


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## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

*Hunting dogs*



Kikie said:


> According to the police report they are Podenco Andaluz. Which puzzles me as I thought they were quiet, docile dogs. Out of curiousity, how do they use these dogs for hunting? Flushing out boar? Rabbits? Retrieving rabbits and birds?


oh god I wish I hadnt looked it up now https://www.galgoamigo.com/the-plight-of-the-podencos.html


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## Kikie (Nov 7, 2008)

chrisnation said:


> You will see from my thread "Next door flat is a dog's WC - literally" that this is a difficult problem to get progress on.
> 
> I think it is a year ago today that the bomberos broke into my neighbour's flat, letting a couple of police officers make an inspection and report on the dreadful situation in this woman's flat.
> 
> ...


That is appalling. I'm coming to the conclusion that whilst there are laws in Spain they are often disregarded.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Kikie said:


> That is appalling. I'm coming to the conclusion that whilst there are laws in Spain they are often disregarded.


Quite so. Having visited Valencia city for 15 years, from 2000, and now living there in a flat I bought and renovated, I have come to the conclusion that Spain is, in some ways, not a front rank country.

That is not to say it lacks culture and the trappings of a full-blown western democracy but two recent examples indicate to me that Spain lags behind in its standards of governance.

1) The judgement passed down on the La Manada gang, with particular ref to the judge who reckoned that the accused should be acquitted.

2) The drawn-out affair of Cristina Fuentes. She resigned, finally. But let the Spanish speak as they find, in this case 

_"The fall of Madrid regional premier Cristina Cifuentes should linger in the collective memory of the country as an example of exactly the kind of behavior that hurts democracy and sullies the name of Spain’s politics and its institutions."_

It is not that in other countries there is no animal abuse, corruption, violence against women et al. It is that Spain does not react to these things in the way that one would hope that a mature society would do.

I really believe that in most other European countries, my neighbour, suffering from cancer and mental health problems, including alcoholism, living without electricity in a flat stinking of faeces from a dog which is never let out, would not be in this situation one year on from the police reporting these facts and seven months on from a _denuncia _from some judicial body.

It's not that nobody cares. It's that the machinery of governance does not work, is not constituted, to deal with these problems in a timely and mature way.


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## Patico (Sep 24, 2017)

chrisnation said:


> I really believe that in most other European countries, my neighbour, suffering from cancer and mental health problems, including alcoholism, living without electricity in a flat stinking of faeces from a dog which is never let out, would not be in this situation one year on from the police reporting these facts and seven months on from a _denuncia _from some judicial body.
> 
> It's not that nobody cares. It's that the machinery of governance does not work, is not constituted, to deal with these problems in a timely and mature way.


Sorry but have to totally disagree with you, this things happen everywhere and imo Spain is no better or no worse than many other countries. The internet is awash with similar situations 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2011/oct/09/joyce-vincent-death-mystery-documentary

Woman, 85, lay dead in her flat for five years before anyone noticed she was missing | Daily Mail Online


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Patico said:


> Sorry but have to totally disagree with you, this things happen everywhere and imo Spain is no better or no worse than many other countries. The internet is awash with similar situations
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/film/2011/oct/09/joyce-vincent-death-mystery-documentary
> 
> Woman, 85, lay dead in her flat for five years before anyone noticed she was missing | Daily Mail Online


You have entirely missed my point. I wrote "_It is not that in other countries there is no animal abuse, corruption, violence against women et al_. Of course, there is.

But the point I made is that _the Spanish way with dealing with these things lags behind other mature societies._

I will give you two examples.

1) In UK the RSPCA are legally entitled to remove animals from situations which they assess as cruel or abusive, under the protection and supervision of the police,_ irrespective of objections, threats or promises made by the animals' keeper._ A court case usually follows.

The police called the animal welfare team to my neighbour's flat. The animals were about to be taken away when the son of my neighbour appeared and promised the police he would vouch for the well-being of the animals. The animal welfare team left without them. In the 12 months since, the situation _has got worse._

2) The Spanish Royal Academy dictionary has an entry for 'sexo'. This includes: 

'sexo debil - conjuncto de las mujeres.'
'sexo fuerte - conjuncto de los hombres.

This is institutionalised machismo at the highest cultural level. If any woman reading that thinks those definitions are acceptable, I would be astonished. Because they are not.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

chrisnation said:


> You have entirely missed my point. I wrote "_It is not that in other countries there is no animal abuse, corruption, violence against women et al_. Of course, there is.
> 
> But the point I made is that _the Spanish way with dealing with these things lags behind other mature societies._
> 
> ...


No, I think Patico is right.
The RSPCA is not that proactive in investigating animal abuse cases as I know from bitter experience. It is currently an organisation rent with internal strife and which has recently had much negative publicity. Dogs Trust is much more proactive in caring for and finding homes for unwanted dogs but has no legal powers.

As for sentencing...the UK is no better than Spain. Steal money or valuables and your sentence (in the unlikely event of being caught thanks to cuts in the police budget) will usually be more severe than if you committed rape, GBH or murder. 'Life' is often nine years or less.
Sexist attitudes and casual 'everyday sexism' are the norm experienced by many women in the UK. Although the police have been guilty of over-reaction (Cliff Richard, Harvey Proctor et al) it sometimes appears that we are a nation of paedophiles.

After retiring from full-time work in education I worked as an advisor on European Employment Protection and Equality Law for my trades union. This involved visits to and familiarity with the situation in other EU countries. Where the UK came out best was in its access to mechanisms to right perceived wrongs - Employment Tribunals and County Courts to enforce the extensive provisions of the Equality Act 2010 as well as the EHRC to give advice and guidance to complainants. Not so in Spain where trades unions are not as powerful and influential as in the UK, even under a Tory Government.

Where, in my experience, Spain wins out over the UK is in its tradition of social solidarity and mutual help. People complain of the attitudes of the Catholic Church with some justification but it should be remembered that Catholic social teaching has a strong almost socialist influence even amongst right-wingers. Spanish labour and rental laws are more favourable to workers and tenants than in the UK.

One's experience and impressions of a country are usually formed by contact with individuals not familiarity with the laws and in that respect I'd give Spain top ranking over the other countries I've lived in.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

My previous experience of reporting base via the RSPCA was met with absolutely no change whatsoever.


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## philcarr (Mar 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So call them to your house at night when it's happening


If the kennel meets the legal requirements, then your only course of action is to focus on the noise nuisance. Complain to the ayuntamiento and/or the Police and if nothing happens the fist time, keep calling and eventually they will get tired of your complaints and actually do something about it. Call them whenever the dogs are barking, day or night as they are duty bound to respond 24/7.


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## The Blackrose (Nov 5, 2017)

There is now an APP to report animal abuse but I cannot post the link cos I only have two posts


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The app is called alerta animal


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The app is called alerta animal


And probably as useful as a chocolate teapot. 
What does this app do that contacting SEPRONA directly doesn't?
In my experience the only way to get any action is through sheer persistence and weight of numbers.
Last summer I saw a dog tied to a short chain in our village, in direct sunlight, no water. I rang the Policia Local as they are often lounging around breakfasting in one of the local bars. An officer turned up, looked at the dog and said 'It's OK, it's always there'. He obviously knew the owner of the poor animal. 
I pointed out to him in my most direct, coarse and crude Spanish that it was most definitely not alright. He shrugged and went away.
I rang a bi-lingual Gibraltarian friend and she and another Spanish woman rang independently and complained bitterly and lengthily about the dog and the police reaction.
I went back ten minutes later. The dog was not there and hasn't been seen there since. Hopefully it's being looked after at home.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

There is one other course of action but I couldn't possibly recommend it, in fact I don't know why I'm posting it.....

If a dog has no chip, it has no legal owner. So let's suppose you see a dog tied to a tree or chained in a yard, in a bad condition, nobody around...if you were to free the dog (cut the rope/chain) and take the dog to the nearest vet, ask to examine it for a microchip, then if the dog has no chip, take it to the nearest shelter....
Someone did something similar to a hunting type dog we had brought in a couple of weeks ago. it was in a dreadful state, malnourished, in need of veterinary care. No chip. Earlier this week a Spanish guy rang to say he'd seen the dog on Facebook, it was his dog and he wanted it back. I said no, it wasn't 'his' dog as it had no chip and therefore no legal owner, he wasn't having it back and he was lucky we weren't denouncing him for maltratado. The dog was adopted yesterday, chipped, all legal now, and has gone to a loving, caring home.

Of course I would never advise anyone to do this kind of thing.


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