# Spains Recession



## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Hi all

I get copies of Spanish online newspapers sent to my work email each day, along with other Countries, as I use them for my job. This article was posted today showing how the recession is having an impact on the number of Hotels that will possibly close over the Winter. Some Hotels have always closed during this period of course - but the majority on the Costa´s usually stay open.

I highighted another thing to me - I have seen a lot of posts in recent months, on the Spain forum and others where people are asking "has the recession reached Spain / Italy / Cyprus yet"? or ... "because of the recession in the UK we are thikning of moving overseas" .....Im surprised sometimes that people in the UK dont always seem to be aware that the recession is Worldwide and not just in the UK! it made me wonder if we could consider a Thread specific to the recession here in spain, with articles, figures, comments on the employment / house prices / changes to usual policy such as the article below.

Im conscious that we wouldnt want to create a huge negative thread here! but a realistic one that we could perhaps direct people to for specific facts on the recession??

Any thoughts
Sue xxx 


*Unions fear that lay offs and closures could be even greater

The Costa del Sol Hoteliers Association, AEHCOS, has said it expects a quarter of the hotels on the coast to close over the winter, while the union CCOO fears that temporary ERE lay-offs in the sector could lead to 35% of hotels closing. Most are expected to do so from November until just before Easter.

AEHCOS represents 350 hotels on the coast with some 88,000 beds.

The fall is expected despite the efforts of the Junta de Andalucía to make the Costa del Sol a less-seasonal destination for tourists.
One bright spark for tourism came yesterday when 8,000 tourists poured off four large cruise liners in Málaga port.

Most of the tourists remained in Málaga, while a reduced number took off on coach trips to Marbella, Granada, Mijas and Nerja. It has been calculated that 400,000 € was spent on the coast in just a few hours, at an average spend of 50 € per head.* TypicallySpanish 23.09.09


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Hi all
> 
> I get copies of Spanish online newspapers sent to my work email each day, along with other Countries, as I use them for my job. This article was posted today showing how the recession is having an impact on the number of Hotels that will possibly close over the Winter. Some Hotels have always closed during this period of course - but the majority on the Costa´s usually stay open.
> 
> I highighted another thing to me - I have seen a lot of posts in recent months, on the Spain forum and others where people are asking "has the recession reached Spain / Italy / Cyprus yet"? or ... "because of the recession in the UK we are thikning of moving overseas" .....Im surprised sometimes that people in the UK dont always seem to be aware that the recession is Worldwide and not just in the UK! it made me wonder if we could consider a Thread specific to the recession here in spain, with articles, figures, comments on the employment / house prices / changes to usual policy such as the article below.


I've always found the British news very shallow. Large areas of the world seemingly don't exist in UK newsrooms and very often the news is about the UK and Europe (one huge land mass not very clearly defined) and the rest of the world is basically the USA. News is very much centered on Brits and celebreties (who are normally Brits), so it's not surprising that people don't know what's going on in the outside (real?) world.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

My thoughts too Pesky ... which is why I thought we could consider a "library" of news articles / facts & figures relating to the current situation - Spanish news articles!!!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've always found the British news very shallow. Large areas of the world seemingly don't exist in UK newsrooms and very often the news is about the UK and Europe (one huge land mass not very clearly defined) and the rest of the world is basically the USA. News is very much centered on Brits and celebreties (who are normally Brits), so it's not surprising that people don't know what's going on in the outside (real?) world.


I think the British media is totally manipulative, biased and has helped CAUSE many a catastrophy! They sensationalise and turn a drama into a crisis. I dont even listen to it anymore cos it makes me cross!!!!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

here's an interesting web site!
Spain Economy Watch
Look's like some serious economists (is that a mixed metaphor) are discussing amongst themselves. Don't just read the article, read the comments that follow.

We're dooomed I tell ye, doooomed!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> here's an interesting web site!
> Spain Economy Watch
> Look's like some serious economists (is that a mixed metaphor) are discussing amongst themselves. Don't just read the article, read the comments that follow.
> 
> We're dooomed I tell ye, doooomed!


Certainly a chirpy article and comments to enjoy reading whilst eating my salad lunch!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im relying on my ability to "wish" all this bad stuff away! ..... the current crisis and the doom and gloom have made me revert back to being 6 years old and thinking if I dont step on the cracks in the pavement whilst skipping to the shops I will have good luck for always! .... It always worked for me when I was six!!! But as a 47 year old in a business suit - I now look pretty ridiculous skipping to the railway station every evening! But Ill give it a go!

Sue xx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Certainly a chirpy article and comments to enjoy reading whilst eating my salad lunch!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Im relying on my ability to "wish" all this bad stuff away! ..... the current crisis and the doom and gloom have made me revert back to being 6 years old and thinking if I dont step on the cracks in the pavement whilst skipping to the shops I will have good luck for always! .... It always worked for me when I was six!!! But as a 47 year old in a business suit - I now look pretty ridiculous skipping to the railway station every evening! But Ill give it a go!
> 
> Sue xx


The interesting thing about the 1st article is that 3 million unsold properties have now shrunk to 1.67 million (because the remainder haven't been built and probably won't be built). That's what I call instant down sizing.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> Certainly a chirpy article and comments to enjoy reading whilst eating my salad lunch!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Im relying on my ability to "wish" all this bad stuff away! ..... the current crisis and the doom and gloom have made me revert back to being 6 years old and thinking if I dont step on the cracks in the pavement whilst skipping to the shops I will have good luck for always! .... It always worked for me when I was six!!! But as a 47 year old in a business suit - I now look pretty ridiculous skipping to the railway station every evening! But Ill give it a go!
> 
> Sue xx



I'm inclined to agree with you Sue, cos with all the so called experts who all have the answers (NOT) and each and every one has a different answer, the only way is to try and ignore it until it goes away! Theres nowt we can do or say!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I'm inclined to agree with you Sue, cos with all the so called experts who all have the answers (NOT) and each and every one has a different answer, the only way is to try and ignore it until it goes away! Theres nowt we can do or say!
> 
> Jo xxx


Burying ones head in the sand!! The answer is manufacture and export - even though nobody wants to buy.
I think I'll buy an allotments and produce my own food, just like my parents did after WW2.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> Burying ones head in the sand!! The answer is manufacture and export - even though nobody wants to buy.
> I think I'll buy an allotments and produce my own food, just like my parents did after WW2.


Burying head in sand seems a better option for me personally as Im not particularly good on the manufacturing and exporting front! although I bake a lovely chocolate cake !!!

Sue


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> here's an interesting web site!
> Spain Economy Watch
> Look's like some serious economists (is that a mixed metaphor) are discussing amongst themselves. Don't just read the article, read the comments that follow.
> 
> We're dooomed I tell ye, doooomed!


Here's a wako theory.... What if there are far bigger issues being manipulated here. I'm not saying that the crisis was engineered to meet the goals of the European Demigods, but what if it isn't as bad news to them as it would seem to the rest of us. Every cloud and all that!!

Consider this - when Arnie went to Obama and said similar things about California recently, did we see similar paralysis by analysis from the other states? No, of course not, it's one country isn't it?!

Is the United States of Europe one possible solution to this mess ? 

We're partly there already aren't we?

I'm not entirely sold on the idea but clearly most of the current problems exist and are highlighted by border issues. With more than 130 protectionism laws passed in the last year by independent governments in the EU, when everyone's saying that protectionism is the last thing we need, the US of E might be the only sour pill left at the end of all this.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Xose said:


> Here's a wako theory.... What if there are far bigger issues being manipulated here. I'm not saying that the crisis was engineered to meet the goals of the European Demigods, but what if it isn't as bad news to them as it would seem to the rest of us. Every cloud and all that!!
> 
> Consider this - when Arnie went to Obama and said similar things about California recently, did we see similar paralysis by analysis from the other states? No, of course not, it's one country isn't it?!
> 
> ...


Xose - you say you arent suggesting that the crisis was engineered, but then comment about issues being manipulated ....  Do you really believe that the powers that be are capable of such manipulation ? Despite a lot of talk of closer ties within the EU, I still think there is massive opposition to full on co-operation from many Countries .... both politically and at street level ... and given how much they seem to disagree on so many issues - Im not convinced they are capable of "working together" to manipulate this current situation....they cant even agree on the curvature of bananas!

Sue :ranger:


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> Xose - you say you arent suggesting that the crisis was engineered, but then comment about issues being manipulated ....  Do you really believe that the powers that be are capable of such manipulation ? Despite a lot of talk of closer ties within the EU, I still think there is massive opposition to full on co-operation from many Countries .... both politically and at street level ... and given how much they seem to disagree on so many issues - Im not convinced they are capable of "working together" to manipulate this current situation....they cant even agree on the curvature of bananas!
> 
> Sue :ranger:


That which is not engineered can still be manipulated if it suits - can't it?

As I said, not something I would particularly look forward to, specially as I can see roughly how the cake would be cut. But the key will be what options are available when the time comes. One thing's for sure, the curvature of bananas is no longer item one on any agenda in Brussels!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Xose said:


> > That which is not engineered can still be manipulated if it suits - can't it?
> 
> 
> As I said, not something I would particularly look forward to, specially as I can see roughly how the cake would be cut. But the key will be what options are available when the time comes. One thing's for sure, the curvature of bananas is no longer item one on any agenda in Brussels!


sure it can .... Im just cynical as to who has the capability within the EU to do this, but maybe that just because although I agree in principal with what the EU "could" stand for and therefore be of potential benefit if it worked.... I have little confidence in the EUs ability to be so cohesive as to make anything work!

At least the banana issue made me smile! which the current situation fails to do!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> Here's a wako theory.... What if there are far bigger issues being manipulated here. I'm not saying that the crisis was engineered to meet the goals of the European Demigods, but what if it isn't as bad news to them as it would seem to the rest of us. Every cloud and all that!!
> 
> Consider this - when Arnie went to Obama and said similar things about California recently, did we see similar paralysis by analysis from the other states? No, of course not, it's one country isn't it?!
> 
> ...



My husband said the same thing, a hidden agenda for the "United State of Europe" with Germany riding the helm, because they'd assume the role of bailing everyone else out!?!! I always thought that that was the point of the Euro in the first place

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Burying head in sand seems a better option for me personally as Im not particularly good on the manufacturing and exporting front! although I bake a lovely chocolate cake !!!
> 
> Sue


Ms Sue Kipling makes 'exceedingly good cakes' (... with apologies)


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Xose said:


> Here's a wako theory.... What if there are far bigger issues being manipulated here. I'm not saying that the crisis was engineered to meet the goals of the European Demigods, but what if it isn't as bad news to them as it would seem to the rest of us. Every cloud and all that!!
> 
> Consider this - when Arnie went to Obama and said similar things about California recently, did we see similar paralysis by analysis from the other states? No, of course not, it's one country isn't it?!
> 
> ...


Maybe we should copy 'The mouse that roared'; Declare war on the USA, invade them and then immediately surrender. At the peace treaty they will hand us an open cheque which can be called the 'Obama Plan':clap2:
On the other hand we can apply to be the next State of the USA, aparently Puerto Rico keep declining invitations to join the US of A.
But on a more serious note the difference between EU and USA, imo, is the problem with nationalities their heritage and language (theoretically the language of USA is English, although as a matter of interest it isn't official)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> But on a more serious note the difference between EU and USA, imo, is the problem with nationalities their heritage and language (theoretically the language of USA is English, although as a matter of interest it isn't official)


Its a problem, but who says it has to be the exact same template as the USA?? Its evolving in a completely different way! I'm not saying its right or that it would be easy, but the alternatives aint much fun!? If this was to happen, I wonder where the UK would stand??


Jo xx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> Ms Sue Kipling makes 'exceedingly good cakes' (... with apologies)


Ill bake one soon J and post photos of it on here!  its the closest I can get to "sharing" it ! xx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Maybe we should copy 'The mouse that roared'; Declare war on the USA, invade them and then immediately surrender. At the peace treaty they will hand us an open cheque which can be called the 'Obama Plan':clap2:
> On the other hand we can apply to be the next State of the USA, aparently Puerto Rico keep declining invitations to join the US of A.
> But on a more serious note the difference between EU and USA, imo, is the problem with nationalities their heritage and language (theoretically the language of USA is English, although as a matter of interest it isn't official)


Next State of the USA?? US of E would be something the USA don't want. The single EU Economy would be quite impressive. It would also be the end of the single world super power. No, I'm fairly convinced that the last thing the USA want to see is a US of E.

As for feasibility due to languages etc., remember the Alamo - they spoke Spanish didn't they  - now Texas I believe. Same for Florida, California etc., etc. Also, I don't think Hawaii spoke English.

In any case, of course it'll happen. May be sooner, later or much later, but clearly it is going to happen.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Zionist conspiracy? The New World Order? The Illuminati? 

And did you know that Paul McCartney died in 1966.....and has been impersonated by a man named William Shepherd ever since?


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

...and if you try to navigate to America on a boat you'll fall off the Earth... and no frontiers and anyone can go work and live wherever they want in Europe, yeah right!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

.. and whatever heappens, the likes of us can do nothing but get on with our day to day lives and enjoy every bit of it!!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> .. and whatever heappens, the likes of us can do nothing but get on with our day to day lives and enjoy every bit of it!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Here's my (naive) thought of how we can do our bit.
1. In order to sell manufactured goods they need to be competitively priced to undercut other producers.
2. A major component of production is energy.
3. If households got into solar power in a big way, and were able to feed it into the national grid without hugh quantities of beaurocracy the Power Companies could dramatically reduce the unit cost of energy and thus the cost of manufactured goods.
Will it happen? Unlikely, because the Power Co. will try to make obscene profits first.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> Here's my (naive) thought of how we can do our bit.
> 1. In order to sell manufactured goods they need to be competitively priced to undercut other producers.
> 2. A major component of production is energy.
> 3. If households got into solar power in a big way, and were able to feed it into the national grid without hugh quantities of beaurocracy the Power Companies could dramatically reduce the unit cost of energy and thus the cost of manufactured goods.
> Will it happen? Unlikely, because the Power Co. will try to make obscene profits first.



1. UK products for export will be competitively priced at the mo cos of the weak pound, however, long term, UK workers unlike other countries arent known for their willingness to work for low wages and that view is spreading across Europe

2. yep!

3. In an ideal world, but solar, altho good isnt brilliant yet and of course if it does become widespread, it would mean energy companies could shead even more jobs and yes would need to justify charging as much or more... cos yes, they would.

As for Spain, I dont think its capitalising enough on its ability to manufacture. Historically, IMO, it has relied far too heavily on tourism, holiday homes, foreign visitors etc. It has space, it has a huge potential work force and has a good infrastructure to export! The Spanish government should be encouraging new technologies and manufacturers to locate here! Maybe Germany could look into this one, it could offset the issues about Spains debt??



Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Spain tips into depression
Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression with unemployment approaching levels not seen since the Second Republic of the 1930s and little chance of recovery until well into the next decade, according to a clutch of reports over recent days.

Spain tips into depression - Telegraph

gloomier and gloomier


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Hombre said:


> Spain tips into depression
> Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression with unemployment approaching levels not seen since the Second Republic of the 1930s and little chance of recovery until well into the next decade, according to a clutch of reports over recent days.
> 
> Spain tips into depression - Telegraph
> ...



God this is awful....read this earlier on this morning online. And then had to make a bank transfer as well. Even worse. Time to chuck the televisions and computers out of the bloody window as I've had enough of all the bad news ... and instead get my huerta up and running, with a few chickens, etc.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If you want 'serious' news about the economic situation anywhere in the world, you need 'serious' sources. Quality newspapers, both right and left, and journals such as The Economist, Prospect and others such, provide solid factual background on current economic issues.
Spain's problems are huge and in many ways unique. Like the Republic of Ireland, Spain's bubble was based on the construction industry and the exposure of banks to defaulting construction companies may only have just begun. 
There is also the vexed question of Spain's sclerotic employment structure, with a privileged workforce on secure contract virtually impossible to downsize as opposed to those on temporary contracts, easy to get rid of in times of economic austerity.
Then there is the extremely risk-averse climate where venture finance for promising start-ups is hard to come by, unlike in the US or even still in the UK.
It could be that Spain would be better off had she control over her own currency - you would see an immediate devaluation of the peseta, were it still currency! - but that isn't an option, unlike Italy or the UK in the 90s, both of which left the EMS to be better placed to deal with an over-valued currency.
It would seem that worse is to come for Spain. Zapatero has pledged more money to the regions, Plan E is in full swing and he has said that the budget gap will be filled via tax increases not cuts. If these increases are on alcohol, tobacco and petrol, this would be a sensible move (though provoking bleatings by some) as it would encourage good health and use of public transport.
AS for manufacturing: any business person knows that the largest cost item is your wage bill. As Jo pointed out, UK workers will not and should not work for poverty pay. Large manufacturers will look for the cheapest skilled or trainable work force. I observed how, in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, jobs which once were UK based then went to the CR or Slovakia were being hived off to Romania and Bulgaria.
The UK simply has no viable manufacturing base. We earn our living through finance. Mrs.Thatcher may deserve to be reviled for many things but she saw clearly that our days as a manufacturing nation were long past and restructured us as a service-providing economy.
We cannot compete with Germany which is still the world's major exporter - just - as Germany's high unit-wage cost is compensated for by value-added and we cannot compete with low-wage countries such as Taiwan, Turkey, China etc.
We should not despair because we are currently in crisis: the history of capitalism over centuries is one of boom and bust -it's inherent in the nature of the beast. And all the historic crises, from the South Sea Bubble to Black Monday were caused by bad judgment distorted by greed.
So pour out the cava and stop worrying. This will p[ass, the good times will roll again until the next crisis.
Hopefully we learn something each time.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Ooer.... that sounds intriguing. 
What is 'user name violation'?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Ooer.... that sounds intriguing.
> What is 'user name violation'?


If I tell you I'll have to kill you LOL!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> If I tell you I'll have to kill you LOL!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Oh...on second thoughts....

By the way, I've just learnt that it has cost me almost £600 more to buy euros to pay next quarter's rent (I prefer to pay quarterly) than it cost for the same amount in June.
Sod the cava, a stiff gin is required.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh...on second thoughts....
> 
> By the way, I've just learnt that it has cost me almost £600 more to buy euros to pay next quarter's rent (I prefer to pay quarterly) than it cost for the same amount in June.
> Sod the cava, a stiff gin is required.


I'll join you hun and I dont drink!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!


Jo xx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I'll join you hun and I dont drink!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Well, I don't smoke (any more) but I do enjoy my G&T. Don't gamble either.
My favourite quote is from George Orwell who said :'It is not given to one person to have all the vices' ....


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

....but we'll give it a bloody good try!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tallulah said:


> ....but we'll give it a bloody good try!!



Now, now Tally, thats plain greedy!! :clap2:

Jo xx


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

If you ladies feel like adding a one night fling to your vices just let me know!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

XTreme said:


> If you ladies feel like adding a one night fling to your vices just let me know!



Yeah Xtreme, I'll let you know!!! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

XTreme said:


> If you ladies feel like adding a one night fling to your vices just let me know!


Well, at the last count I'd not committed all of the Seven Deadly Sins....so maybe it's time to think about the full experience...


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## edmund (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi mrypg9, "user name violation" means mentioning an international courier firm by name. Why this should be so when you have mentioned The Economist and Prospect, international newspapers, just a couple of posts above remains a mystery to me.

Very interested in your post, I met yesterday someone from Ireland just transferred to Czech Rep working for a different international courier firm (there are only four!) who said that they had transferred their hub from Belgium to Leipzig to benefit from Former East German wages which are minimally above the dole. This firm received a very large amount of money in relocation expenses and new airport facilities to make the switch.

My original post was about how I had advertised a job with my company and interviewed both Expat and Spanish applicants and, on the strength of the response, decided to employ two instead of one. The Spanish applicant later withdrew saying that my company's tactics for expanding our market share were "Anglo Saxon" because we offered cheaper prices with increased service on a model that works in the UK and USA markets but would never work in Spain. My conclusion was that Spanish unemployment will remain high until the ordinary Spaniard accepts that efficiency must be maximised.

Actually, after that dry summary, I think my original post was much more interesting and/or amusing but jojo removed it so I have to tread very carefully until I know what is acceptable. 

Pity the thread has disintegrated into sexual innuendo as you make some very important points. Spain's banks are supporting bust construction companies in order to avoid taking the losses onto their balance sheet. This is a process that has kept Japan in recession for 20 years and could well do the same for Spain meaning that property prices will continue to decline for the next 20 years and I think that we should all be considering that. If wages here are €1,000 a month then a basic starter home should cost €40,000 (10% deposit plus 3 times annual salary). Either inflation (not easy within the Euro Zone) or deflation will eventually deliver ordinary Spanish people with an affordable home which will have a great effect on the property values of anyone who has purchased here within the last 10 years.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

edmund said:


> Hi mrypg9, "user name violation" means mentioning an international courier firm by name. Why this should be so when you have mentioned The Economist and Prospect, international newspapers, just a couple of posts above remains a mystery to me.
> 
> Very interested in your post, I met yesterday someone from Ireland just transferred to Czech Rep working for a different international courier firm (there are only four!) who said that they had transferred their hub from Belgium to Leipzig to benefit from Former East German wages which are minimally above the dole. This firm received a very large amount of money in relocation expenses and new airport facilities to make the switch.
> 
> ...



Hey, dont shoot the messenger!! 

Seriously tho Edmund, we are keen to avoid advertising on the forum in any way shape or form, for several reasons, but from the modertators viewpoint, imagine that all companies were allowed to use their company names as user names and were allowed to directly or indirectly chat about how efficient their companies were... well there may not be much in the way of sexual inuendo but I dont think it would be a very honest, interesting or friendly place.

But Welcome to the forum anyway and I hope your contributions will continue as it sounds like you have a lot of experience and knoweldge to share :

Jo xxx


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## edmund (Sep 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> Hey, dont shoot the messenger!!
> 
> Seriously tho Edmund, we are keen to avoid advertising on the forum in any way shape or form, for several reasons, but from the modertators viewpoint, imagine that all companies were allowed to use their company names as user names and were allowed to directly or indirectly chat about how efficient their companies were... well there may not be much in the way of sexual inuendo but I dont think it would be a very honest, interesting or friendly place.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jo, welcome accepted. I'm sure we'll have plenty of contact in the future as there's so much I've learned from living here (in very different circumstances to you) which I would hate to go through again and would love to pass on to others. Oh dear, high wind, solar panels threatening to detatch themselves from the roof, windmill going crazy, should really be on the Climate in Spain thread.

Edmund xx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

edmund said:


> Hi mrypg9, "user name violation" means mentioning an international courier firm by name. Why this should be so when you have mentioned The Economist and Prospect, international newspapers, just a couple of posts above remains a mystery to me.
> 
> Very interested in your post, I met yesterday someone from Ireland just transferred to Czech Rep working for a different international courier firm (there are only four!) who said that they had transferred their hub from Belgium to Leipzig to benefit from Former East German wages which are minimally above the dole. This firm received a very large amount of money in relocation expenses and new airport facilities to make the switch.
> 
> ...


Hi Edmund,

Yes, I also believe that property prices/rental incomes will decline significantly over the next twenty years at least. I also think it likely that the golden age of tourism is finished here as long-haul destinations such as Australia, the Caribbean,Thailand etc and non-euro zone countries such as Turkey which is rapidly aquiring a developed infrastructure and attractive tourist facilities will take an increasing share of the family and older age group holiday market.
If I were Zapatero I would curse Spain's euro zone membership as it imposes severe limits on domestic fiscal policy. 
As for the nature of employment : I think the corporatist element of Francoism is still strong in unexpected quarters. Relaxing the labour market laws is likely to meet with stiff opposition from the Trades Unions and also IMHO not only from the Left.
Your business model is identical to the one we pursued in the UK: an emphasis on quality reliable service and competitive and dynamic pricing worked well for us as it should for any business which is interested in moving forward rather than being static.
Keep posting, I enjoy discussion and argument. Since my voluntary retirement - which only took place last month - I'm really missing economic and political debate whether of the face-to-face or non-verbal variety.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

*Changes to IVA and proposed tax increases*

Thought this may be interesting to those who didnt see it on the news over the weekend.

Sue :ranger:


Article in Spanish news this morning 28.09.09

*The Spanish cabinet on Saturday approved the Government’s plans for tax increases next year. These now have to go onto Congress for approval in a vote set for Tuesday, but the main changes proposed are as follows:

The Government is to remove the 400 € tax rebate for employed workers, the self employed. Minister for Tax and the Economy, Elena Salgado, said that they were removing the rebate because ‘the recovery would have started’. No other changes to income tax were announced.

Also missing was the much speculated ‘green tax’, with Elena Salgado saying that the General State Budget was not the time to create new taxes, but that the measure would be part of the future law on a sustainable economy.

IVA or VAT will be increased by two points on the basic rate to take it up to 18%.
The reduced rate of IVA will increase from 7% to 8%.
Both the VAT increases will be introduced from July 2010.
The super-reduced rate of IVA on essential items remains at 4%.

The tax on capital rents or savings will become progressive. The first 6,000 will be taxed at 19%, compared to the current 18%, but the rest will now be taxed at 21%.

In addition to these measures the cabinet wants to cut public spending by 3.9%, 0.6% less than what was originally considered.
Deputy Prime Minister, María Teresa Fernández de la Vega, said that the new budgets are thought for ‘those most prejudiced’ and described the changes as ‘equitable and showing solidarity’.

The Government forecasts that with these changes the state deficit will reduce from 5.7% to 5.4%.

The total pubic debt in the administrations will reach 62.5% of GDP in 2010.

The Government will now have to negotiate support for the package with the other parliamentary groups, ahead of Tuesday’s vote, as it needs an overall majority to be passed. Even if it is passed in Congress on Tuesday, it will then go before the Senate which could return it for more debate. If there is no Senate veto the final text will see the definitive vote in Congress in December.

PP opposition leader Mariano Rajoy has commented that the 2010 budgets will bring ‘more unemployment, more deficit and more taxes’.*


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Thought this may be interesting to those who didnt see it on the news over the weekend.
> 
> Sue :ranger:
> 
> ...


I was only saying all of the above to Mrs H this morning whilst I was holding her ladder for her.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Hombre said:


> I was only saying all of the above to Mrs H this morning whilst I was holding her ladder for her.


:rain::rain: Wot! you sent her up there in the rain! you are far worse than I realised Mr H!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I received a monthly bulletin from a UK property company based near San Pedro which was surrealistically upbeat. It spoke of 'the huge number of visitors crowding beaches and restaurants', 'more people than we could find beds for' , the 'rise in numbers of families relocating to Northern Europe', increase in 'property and long-term rental values' etc etc.
Am I living on the same planet? 
Beaches round here weren't exactly packed, can't say I noticed that restaurants were that full although Mercadona was crowded on about four Saturdays in the high season.
Or maybe I'm missing something and all those doom and gloom merchants are wrong??
Somehow I don't think so.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I received a monthly bulletin from a UK property company based near San Pedro which was surrealistically upbeat. It spoke of 'the huge number of visitors crowding beaches and restaurants', 'more people than we could find beds for' , the 'rise in numbers of families relocating to Northern Europe', increase in 'property and long-term rental values' etc etc.
> Am I living on the same planet?
> Beaches round here weren't exactly packed, can't say I noticed that restaurants were that full although Mercadona was crowded on about four Saturdays in the high season.
> Or maybe I'm missing something and all those doom and gloom merchants are wrong??
> Somehow I don't think so.


I dont think you are wrong M. I know we visit a local chiringuito pretty much every weelend and now know the owners well. They were saying that this summer in particular has been really quiet for them in comparison to previous years. some friends from the UK also rented a villa here in Estepona for 2 weeks in August and the owners had only 3 booking for the entire season. In addition there are plenty of independent local shops closing near us which is such a shame ... but certainly doesnt fall into the category of a place "doing well".

sue


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> I dont think you are wrong M. I know we visit a local chiringuito pretty much every weelend and now know the owners well. They were saying that this summer in particular has been really quiet for them in comparison to previous years. some friends from the UK also rented a villa here in Estepona for 2 weeks in August and the owners had only 3 booking for the entire season. In addition there are plenty of independent local shops closing near us which is such a shame ... but certainly doesnt fall into the category of a place "doing well".
> 
> sue


Full of bleeding French pensioners around here.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Hombre said:


> Full of bleeding French pensioners around here.


,,,,,,,right  and does that affect the economy in a good way or a bad way Mr H?


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> ,,,,,,,right  and does that affect the economy in a good way or a bad way Mr H?


Well...I could wax lyrical all day about that, but there are others on here more qualified and intelligent than me who do it far better. Suffice to say they bloody annoy me. As my farmacia said "they are a necessary irritant "...me ?..I think they are an unnecessary irritant. What is the purpose of them ?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> Well...I could wax lyrical all day about that, but there are others on here more qualified and intelligent than me who do it far better. Suffice to say they bloody annoy me. As my farmacia said "they are a necessary irritant "...me ?..I think they are an unnecessary irritant. What is the purpose of them ?


Bloody foreigners....coming over here....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> Well...I could wax lyrical all day about that, but there are others on here more qualified and intelligent than me who do it far better. Suffice to say they bloody annoy me. As my farmacia said "they are a necessary irritant "...me ?..I think they are an unnecessary irritant. What is the purpose of them ?



I dont know the "ins and outs", but,

A. You could say the same about UK pensioners and...

B. They must be spending their money and wont be taking local jobs which can only be a good thing???????????????

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont know the "ins and outs", but,
> 
> A. You could say the same about UK pensioners and...
> 
> ...



I know ..I know...its just that......THEY'RE FRENCH !!!..


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> I know ..I know...its just that......THEY'RE FRENCH !!!..


Oh I see!! I like the french, its the Brits I have trouble with.... present company accepted! 

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Oh I see!! I like the french, its the Brits I have trouble with.... present company accepted!
> 
> Jo xxx


Living near the French border , as we do, we live with them on a daily basis.
It really angers me that they cannot/will not use even basic Spanish. It is "bonjour" or "Au revoir" and "merci ". They absolutely refuse to compromise, which I..and others...find quite offensive.
In shops etc, when browsing, they know you are there, yet refuse to step aside to let you pass. It is quite noticeable that, when approaching a zebra crossing as a pedestrian, the Spanish will...99% of the time stop and wave you across...not a chance with the French.
Almost every car that is towed away by police around here ,for traffic/parking offences is French.
In a recent survey of hoteliers (Spain)..the French came out top of the least popular visitors. The thing is...THEY DON'T CARE !!
I could go on but..................................


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> Living near the French border , as we do, we live with them on a daily basis.
> It really angers me that they cannot/will not use even basic Spanish. It is "bonjour" or "Au revoir" and "merci ". They absolutely refuse to compromise, which I..and others...find quite offensive.
> In shops etc, when browsing, they know you are there, yet refuse to step aside to let you pass. It is quite noticeable that, when approaching a zebra crossing as a pedestrian, the Spanish will...99% of the time stop and wave you across...not a chance with the French.
> Almost every car that is towed away by police around here ,for traffic/parking offences is French.
> ...



Mate, replace the word "French" for "Brit" in your post, cos every single word you've just said is just like the Brits around here - accept me!!!! :eyebrows:


Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Mate, replace the word "French" for "Brit" in your post, cos every single word you've just said is just like the Brits around here - accept me!!!! :eyebrows:
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I believe you Jo...I really do. I'm not making the Brits to be whiter than white...far from it...Jesus ! I see them around here too, and I cringe. I am the most tolerable guy, but no other people get to me like the French do.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Thought this may be interesting to those who didnt see it on the news over the weekend.
> 
> Sue :ranger:
> 
> ...



Just a thought .... if the reduced IVA of 7% is being increased to 8% then that surely is going to affect the housing market in a negative way ? The IVA going up 1% for people considering buying at the moment is certainly not an incentive is it ??? or did I miss something that counteracts this ?

The last thing the housing market needs right now is more costs!

Sue :ranger:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

What needs to happen is the lawyers over here to change the way they charge, they should take a set ammount for conveyancing as in the UK instead of charging a percentage of the property price. They must make absolute fortunes

Jo xxxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

jojo said:


> What needs to happen is the lawyers over here to change the way they charge, they should take a set ammount for conveyancing as in the UK instead of charging a percentage of the property price. They must make absolute fortunes
> 
> Jo xxxx


I think the entire purchasing system needs looking at. I know the Law firm I work for charges a fixed fee depending on the value (purchase price) of the property and then shifts into percentages above a certain amount.

Its years since I bought a property in the UK - but I remember although the fees looked lower then than they are here - if you calculated that back to a percentage figure of the purchase price it wasnt too different.

Sue x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> I think the entire purchasing system needs looking at. I know the Law firm I work for charges a fixed fee depending on the value (purchase price) of the property and then shifts into percentages above a certain amount.
> 
> Its years since I bought a property in the UK - but I remember although the fees looked lower then than they are here - if you calculated that back to a percentage figure of the purchase price it wasnt too different.
> 
> Sue x


Maybe it was cos I was new and I didnt know any better, but when we were looking to buy our abogado wanted to charge us 1% of the purchase price, doesnt sound that much til you work that out on a 400,000€ house! In the UK it would cost around 200 pounds + ancillaries

Jo xxxx


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## EllieC (May 19, 2008)

Suenneil said:


> Certainly a chirpy article and comments to enjoy reading whilst eating my salad lunch!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Im relying on my ability to "wish" all this bad stuff away! ..... the current crisis and the doom and gloom have made me revert back to being 6 years old and thinking if I dont step on the cracks in the pavement whilst skipping to the shops I will have good luck for always! .... It always worked for me when I was six!!! But as a 47 year old in a business suit - I now look pretty ridiculous skipping to the railway station every evening! But Ill give it a go!
> 
> Sue xx


I'm with you. I relocated back to the US for personal reasons last year and really miss my lovely house in Valencia and the sunshine! No matter how much doom and gloom the lifestyle in Spain is still the best. I try to keep up with the news and friends but it is still "el crisis" on every front. It is amazing how far a little bit of good news can go and I think Spain needs a bit of good news. It is amazing how some uplifting news here in the US is helping the economy. People see a rise in the stock market and start spending money again. The Spanish papers need to find some little nuggets of light to report about so people can begin to smile again. It is a beautiful country with a wonderful lifestyle with so much to give. This will always be a reason for people to relocate there and subsequently boost Spain's economy once again. It will happen but in the meantime we won't step on the cracks and hopefully we will wake up one day and it will be over!


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

EllieC said:


> I'm with you. I relocated back to the US for personal reasons last year and really miss my lovely house in Valencia and the sunshine! No matter how much doom and gloom the lifestyle in Spain is still the best. I try to keep up with the news and friends but it is still "el crisis" on every front. It is amazing how far a little bit of good news can go and I think Spain needs a bit of good news. It is amazing how some uplifting news here in the US is helping the economy. People see a rise in the stock market and start spending money again. The Spanish papers need to find some little nuggets of light to report about so people can begin to smile again. It is a beautiful country with a wonderful lifestyle with so much to give. This will always be a reason for people to relocate there and subsequently boost Spain's economy once again. It will happen but in the meantime we won't step on the cracks and hopefully we will wake up one day and it will be over!


Hi Ellie lovely to have your input 

Ive always been a big believer in positive thinking! and wish there was more positive reporting in many of the National newspapers (and Im thinking the UK papers here more so than the Spanish)....

I do think there is a lot to be said for being "talked into" something - of course the recession is a reality, and of course there are problems - but its important for people to start to feel confident in order to act confidently - and to do that we need something good to hang on to!

I hope you get the chance to come back to your home in Valencia at some point in the future.

Take care
Sue x


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