# Integration



## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Prompted by another thread, I thought it would be interesting to see to what extent people feel like they have "integrated".

I'm using quotes because part of the answer should be to say what having integrated would mean to you.

I often see people saying they would like to integrate and assume this to mean with the Spanish people they live amongst. I think in some cases it influences decisions about where to live. But to what extent does true integration actually happen?

So, what does it mean to you to integrate. Did you want to, do you want to, or have you given up? Do you think it's possible or desirable?


----------



## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

I guess those of us married to a spaniard have a type of integration but slightly different from I think what you are after. But I don't think I'd have integrated fully without a spanish family


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I'd say I was as "integrated" with my neighbours and with the local community here as I was when I lived in the UK. That is to say, I talk to them when I see them, sometimes do favours for them as they do for me, I go to community meetings and events, and I get approached personally and invited to things. I deal with all official matters, medical appointments, etc. independently without the need of assistance from a paid translator or a Spanish friend/neighbour. I have friends of several different nationalities here, British, Spanish and others. 

I don't know whether that's "true" integration or not, and I don't care. I haven't changed things like the time I eat my meals, I still watch British TV (and sometimes Spanish), still read British newspapers (and Spanish ones too).

It's true I didn't choose to live in an area with a large foreign population as I didn't see the point of coming to live in another country just to huddle around people of the same nationality as me.


----------



## tonymar (Jan 29, 2015)

I dont feel fully integrated after 12 years , and I am ashamed to say my Spanish is no where near as good as it should be .

however as for my kids , yes I feel they are well integrated ALL their friends including boy/ girl friends are Spanish 

I feel we are now a bit of an embarrassment to them !!

Tony AGOST


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I never really understood "integration". Different people live different lives. Some folk like to be "in" the centre of everything - regardless of nationality or where they live, others dont. So altho I had Spanish and British friends when I lived in Spain, I/we tended to "keep ourselves to ourselves". I'm the same in the UK. I dont really mix outside of my family and one or two friends... and work of course

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

An interesting question that, as you can imagine has come up before in various threads, including the idea of what is intergration exactly , is it achievable, and is it even desirable?
This is an interesting thread if only for the "history 2 it provides...Halydia pre marriage, Truebrit recently arrived, Thrax also pretty new to Spain, Jiminato still with the bar, Jojo a couple of months after having moved back...
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...id-take-you-settle-down-spain.html#post582069
And there's also reference to another thread, Plastic Spaniard, an interesting read


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

If one does not speak fairly fluent Spanish, not just enough to get by, then the idea that one is within almost any sense of of the word integrated is a fallacy. 

However even with fluent Spanish one may choose to live one's own life, away from the herd.

I lived almost 20 years in the same house in UK, and apart from a 'good morning' to most of my neighbours, I never had any closer links with them. After 25 years in Spain, I am probably a little less formal with my neighbours here.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I rarely worry about whether I am 'integrated' or not. I'm too busy getting on with my life to ponder on what is really in the global scale of things of low importance.
I'm British, no amount of 'integration' can change that, and I do the same things I did wherever I find myself in the world but with different people and surroundings.
Length of time spent in Spain means diddly- squat unless like PW.Albo and a few others you are involved family-wise.
There are people who have lived here for nearly thirty years but you can tell by their opinions that they are spiritually still in Macclesfield or wherever.
Ignorance is international.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Our village of about 5000 had several hundred expats - mainly Brits - and that group tended to operate as a village within a village to a certain extent.

Because of the nature of the place and the type of people who were drawn there most would speak at least reasonable Spanish (many fluent) and take part in the local events, eat local food and so on. There was certainly a lot of interaction - is that different from integration?

Pesky mentioned the 'plastic' Spaniard thing. The odd idiot would think they were Spanish, avoid Brits where possible, only speak Spanish and only do Spanish things - they were generally regarded with amusement by all including the Spanish. 

I noticed that many newcomers and holidaymakers would steadfastly 'do Spanish' -food and bars and so on - whereas most long term residents were less concerned and would do exactly what they wanted.

I always liked being a foreigner in a foreign land - it was all starting to get a bit to normal for me. Circumstances dictated I had to return to the UK. If I had had my way I would have moved on to somewhere new - not back.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Our village of about 5000 had several hundred expats - mainly Brits - and that group tended to operate as a village within a village to a certain extent.
> 
> Because of the nature of the place and the type of people who were drawn there most would speak at least reasonable Spanish (many fluent) and take part in the local events, eat local food and so on. There was certainly a lot of interaction - is that different from integration?
> 
> ...


One of the things that irritated me about Czechs was their insularity. Unlike their neighbours the Poles, few Czechs have emigrated to the UK. The national ' mindset, going by 99%'of the people we met, even those who were highly educated, was closed and resistant to change. 
Two mantras, often heard, stick in my mind:' We've always done it like this' and ' things are better than they used to be'. Both used as arguments against any kind of change or improvement.
The idea of living abroad was seen as something verging on the abnormal. ' But you will leave your family and friends!' was a frequent response, no- one ever thinking this might be a good reason for moving....
I pondered this and suddenly it hit me: the Czech Republic is landlocked..they have no coast!!
Explains much.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

jojo said:


> I never really understood "integration". Different people live different lives. Some folk like to be "in" the centre of everything - regardless of nationality or where they live, others dont. So altho I had Spanish and British friends when I lived in Spain, I/we tended to "keep ourselves to ourselves". I'm the same in the UK. I dont really mix outside of my family and one or two friends... and work of course
> 
> Jo xxx



I'm with jojo, we definitely prefer to keep to ourselves and in that much it is the same anywhere we would live not just Spain. The area here it seems is mainly Spanish and people don't seem to interact all that much which suits us fine.
That said we are in Spain, by default everything we do is Spanish from the weekly shopping to going somewhere on a weekend. We are learning the language and increasingly are becoming more confident with it. 
But we live our lives like most do here I imagine there is not much difference to the family down the road.

In AllHearts thread I mentioned there is not much difference in life in Spain to elsewhere and I suppose what I mean by that is life for us is and always will be family first. We are still up to our elbows in nappies, runny noses and keeping a couple of little mentalists from damaging themselves or their environment and when you get a break from that there is the house to deal with, there is work too. Any other time is spent together.
Anything else is just superficial. Maybe it's just the time and place in our lives but fundamentally life would be the same for us anywhere right now.

What any of that means for integration I don't know.


----------



## Pokerface (Dec 22, 2014)

jimenato said:


> Our village of about 5000 had several hundred expats - mainly Brits - and that group tended to operate as a village within a village to a certain extent.
> 
> Because of the nature of the place and the type of people who were drawn there most would speak at least reasonable Spanish (many fluent) and take part in the local events, eat local food and so on. There was certainly a lot of interaction - is that different from integration?
> 
> ...


I´m 100% with you on that one Jim.
As a foreigner I kind of enjoy my foreign status. I´m married to a Spaniard so I guess I meet more of the Spanish people than I otherwise would do.
Regardless of the number of Spanish I meet, I´m still Jonny foreigner and pretend to be nothing else.
Interestingly, I seem to be more accepted into the community where I live, than I ever was back in the UK. That acceptance comes from all nations?!


----------



## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Ahh, this "integration" thing. I have lived and worked in several diferent countries (Sweden, Poland, USA, Germany, UK, Russia, Spain, Mexico, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico, Belize etc. etc.), inhabited by people of different customs, outlooks, lifestyles, speaking different languages. How many times can one integrate? or "integrate"? 

I am curious and like change, am generally open to acceptance ( though not to sexism, racism and other forms of oppression), to things and people being different. 

In all countries in which I worked I had local coworkers, and coworkers are in my experience better introducers to a local community than neighbors, as you usually have more in common with them. They learn to know you better much faster and on a less artificial level and they HAVE TO at least tolerate you whether they like it or not. And, of course, vice versa. They will assist you with local customs, local bureaucracy etc. And in that way, I think, the first level of "integration" will be reached.

Language, from the very beginning is no barrier - multinational workplaces usually use English as a working language. If you share meals with local coworkers, you will notice when they start accepting you as one of them, as  they will gradually start speaking their native tongue both with you and around you. Start inviting you to do things after work etc. etc. 

Of course, some communities are more open than others - mind you, I said communities, not nationalities - some are less. In some you will always? stick out like a sore thumb. 

I experienced it recently ... trying to reintegrate in Sweden after 30 years abroad... and to do it in a little, very conservative village, where there are two different communities: a dwindling number of all year inhabitants, most of whom were born there and lived there all their lives and another - a community of summer birds from the biggest Swedish cities, arriving in the middle of June and leaving at the end of August. These two groups rarely mixed, if at all. Too big difference in education levels, interests, lifestyles (one with very deep roots and no wings whatsoever, the other, just the opposite) and the summer birds created a lot of inconveniences for the all-year-rounders, taxing the local infrastructure heavily: lines in all stores, lines to see a doctor, lines, lines, lines. 

Lacking ANY commonalities, save language (and even that at a very artificial level: educated, urbane Stockholm Swedish is very different than uneducated rural Skania Swedish, which sounds more like Danish than Swedish) and nationality, does not make an integration easy.


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> An interesting question that, as you can imagine has come up before in various threads, including the idea of what is intergration exactly , is it achievable, and is it even desirable?
> This is an interesting thread if only for the "history 2 it provides...Halydia pre marriage, Truebrit recently arrived, Thrax also pretty new to Spain, Jiminato still with the bar, Jojo a couple of months after having moved back...
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...id-take-you-settle-down-spain.html#post582069
> And there's also reference to another thread, Plastic Spaniard, an interesting read


Thanks for that blast from the past!! 

I'm even more integrated now. I've got a hybrid Spanish-American fetus in my belly that is so Spanish that it doesn't give me *morning* sickness, it gives me *evening* sickness and makes me sleep until noon. He's forcing me to change from a morning person to a night owl!

All jokes aside, my husband and I have moved to a tiny town in the mountains. I have finally found *my* place. Even city boy OH now prefers the _pueblo_ to his city! As I have stated many different times here, I'm a small town girl and I was never comfortable with the "keeping up appearances" way of life I found in Santander and the greater Bilbao metro area. Here, I can walk around in my muck boots and nobody bats an eye. 

Regarding OP's questions: 
*Did you want to integrate?* I wouldn't be a happy person if I were my own little guiri island. Guiris are few and far between here. It's integrate - to the best of one's own ability - or die of boredom. 
*Do you think it's possible or desirable?* Of course it's possible! There's no doubt that we can't get rid of who we are, nor is that a good idea. I'm always going to be that strange blonde American chick. Due partly to my mega-guiri appearance, I will never pass for a Spaniard. Is it desirable to integrate? To each their own. I don't think I'd ever be happy in a foreign land if I didn't associate with the locals. That's just who I am.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I have seen plenty of blondes, natural redheads too in Northern Spain


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> Thanks for that blast from the past!!
> 
> I'm even more integrated now. I've got a hybrid Spanish-American fetus in my belly that is so Spanish that it doesn't give me *morning* sickness, it gives me *evening* sickness and makes me sleep until noon. He's forcing me to change from a morning person to a night owl!
> 
> ...


Congratulations, felicidades, whatever.

When I read your posts for some reason I don't think of you as American and am quite surprised to find you are a North American blonde!
The' flavour' of your writing is European, at least to me.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I have seen plenty of blondes, natural redheads too in Northern Spain


We have a few blondes here as well and they are 100% Spanish and even a few redheads.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I'm also a blue-eyed blond, but everyone says it's not just the color of my hair and eyes that give away my nationality but the shape of my face. I've been told many times that my face screams American. :confused2:


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I remember as a student having to write an essay on the differences between integration and assimilation.

Assimilation is when immigrants adopt the language, customs and values of the host country. After two or three generations there is little or no distinction between them.

Integration involves the acceptance of the host country's culture and values without losing one's own. In fact it's a two-way street, over time the culture of the incomers can influence the host population.

So in that sense yes, I am becoming integrated. I co-exist happily with my neighbours but I will never assimilate. (Sorry if this sounds like the Borg from Startrek!)


----------



## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

It does seem to me that the word 'integration' is a fairly recent term used frequently now by policiticians in the UK and used amongst some British people in Spain, eg 'I integrate with the Spanish people' as though this is the pinnacle on which we should all aim. 

When my OH moved to England, never did he once think about 'integrating' he just got on with his work and home life. Never once was he asked if he had 'integrated' with the 'local' people. 

I remember a time, around 20 years ago, whilst living in the UK that I 'thought' maybe we should be involved with other Spanish people. So I found (for him) a Spanish Association, where Spanish people living in the Uk would meet occasionally.

After a while he said to me 'Do we really have to go to again to the Spanish Association?' I thought he enjoyed it until he said to me 'just because they are Spanish doesnt mean that I have anything in common with them'

I think the same thing applies for me here in Spain, I have Spanish, Dutch, French and English friends, this doesnt mean I am 'integrated', it just means that I have made friends with people with whom I share common interests.

Our home life consists of watching UK and Spanish TV, speaking to English and Spanish neighbours and eating more or less the same food as we did in the UK, with the added bonus of a larger variety of fish in the supermarkets and wine is far cheaper.

The only difference in our lives that I can think of (well apart from the weather) is that we have a siesta, not because we live in Spain, but because we dont now work full time, so we can!!!


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I remember as a student having to write an essay on the differences between integration and assimilation.
> 
> Assimilation is when immigrants adopt the language, customs and values of the host country. After two or three generations there is little or no distinction between them.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Nice to have a definition of the two terms.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I remember as a student having to write an essay on the differences between integration and assimilation.
> 
> Assimilation is when immigrants adopt the language, customs and values of the host country. After two or three generations there is little or no distinction between them.
> 
> ...


by that definition, my elder daughter is already assimilated - there's no 'Englishness' about her at all - though she doesn't _look _Spanish

I'm integrated & so is my younger daughter - which is odd, since she was so much younger than her sister when we came here, you might have expected her to 'assimilate' more


----------



## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

It's been interesting to read all these different perspectives. 

My own. Prior to getting here I would have hoped to be mixing with a few locals as well as the expats. That was it really. 

Apart from that, I am like some others here in that I continue to read and watch English news, do the same things I always did, and eat pretty much anything (which has been just as well in some of the other places I have been!) and have no desire to change i.e. happy to be a foreigner abroad and accept my status as one. I am very keen to avoid "plastic" status, my social circle in the UK includes a plastic paddy and he is subjected to a constant barage of p**s taking in the classic British way.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

kalohi said:


> I'm also a blue-eyed blond, but everyone says it's not just the color of my hair and eyes that give away my nationality but the shape of my face. I've been told many times that my face screams American. :confused2:


Poor you!


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

kalohi said:


> I'm also a blue-eyed blond, but everyone says it's not just the color of my hair and eyes that give away my nationality but the shape of my face. I've been told many times that my face screams American. :confused2:


I get French, German, and British a lot. People hardly ever guess.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I have seen plenty of blondes, natural redheads too in Northern Spain


Of course, and indeed in all parts of Spain because although their origins maybe in the north, in the 21st century people tend to move around, but an American/ British blonde does tend to stand out.

Many congratulations to elentxu.reggers:
Maybe you have evening sickness and not morning sickness because the baby's on a transatlantic timetable!reggers:


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> I get French, German, and British a lot. People hardly ever guess.


 I get German a lot - I clearly don't _look _Spanish, nor do I _sound _Spanish when I speak Spanish - but they are never quite sure where I'm from

People often used to reply to me in German when I tried to speak Spanish in the early days - at least now they respond in Spanish, so I must be getting better  



congrats on the reggers:


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> I get German a lot - I clearly don't _look _Spanish, nor do I _sound _Spanish when I speak Spanish - but they are never quite sure where I'm from


That's me, too - Spanish people always tend to ask if I'm German, if they don't know me.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Of course, and indeed in all parts of Spain because although their origins maybe in the north, in the 21st century people tend to move around, but *an American/ British blonde does tend to stand out.*


so does a Spanish one!!


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Of course, and indeed in all parts of Spain because although their origins maybe in the north, in the 21st century people tend to move around, but an American/ British blonde does tend to stand out.


I look so German that when I fly Lufthansa, the staff tend to speak to me in German. I stick out like a sore thumb up here!





> Maybe you have evening sickness and not morning sickness because the baby's on a transatlantic timetable!reggers:


Hey, that's a great point!


----------



## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

I am - sadly? - no longer a blond, now that I am silver. But my eyes are still the same blue. And my English is - at best - American. So is my Swedish nowadays. ;-) But my German seems either to still be German, or the Germans got used to non-German accents. I wonder if my Spanish, after two years in Puerto Rico sounds boricua or if it also sounds American.


----------



## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

kalohi said:


> I've been told many times that my face screams American. :confused2:


I have the opposite problem. My butt screams American.


----------



## pittstop (Apr 19, 2012)

Biggest obstacle to integration is language. Especially here in Valencia where Valenciano is more common than Spanish. I'm working as an English teacher, so I've been lucky to make bi and even trilingual friends, but for people out in the sticks that just isn't an option.


----------

