# The ghosts Spain tries to ignore



## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/opinion/the-ghosts-spain-tries-to-ignore.html?_r=0


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

The descendants of this criminals are now in the power.


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

"The descendants of THESE"... etc., could be said of any country on earth, unless you cleanse it ethnically, which is a feasible option in Catalonia at least, if the independentists ever get hold of power and proclaim their quasi dystopian, isolated state. Why would you think you'd find support for this distorted and maligned view of modern, supranational Spain, in this particular forum, which is so full of people who love the country, is beyond being rabidly nonsensical, almost to the point of bad taste. But then, it fits the iconography of your profile.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

mickbcn said:


> The descendants of this criminals are now in the power.


It was such a tragic, terrible time in Spain's history. I think it's vital that it must not be forgotten by any of us. This cannot happen again.

However, if we want to blame people for the mistakes of their ancestors, I can guarantee that absolutely none of us will come out of it well. On the most basic level, we're all somewhere around eighth cousins in this world and if you go back far enough everyone will be descended from a few thieves and certainly a few rapists. Probably a few murderers too. So. 

We just have to all try to do better than any unpleasant relatives. If we don't, that's when the guilt is on us.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Thank you for puting us into persective on simple terms. I have found that there so many know it alls cliques on this forum that it makes me want to leave


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

rpbalbis2 said:


> "The descendants of THESE"... etc., could be said of any country on earth, unless you cleanse it ethnically, which is a feasible option in Catalonia at least, if the independentists ever get hold of power and proclaim their quasi dystopian, isolated state. Why would you think you'd find support for this distorted and maligned view of modern, supranational Spain, in this particular forum, which is so full of people who love the country, is beyond being rabidly nonsensical, almost to the point of bad taste. But then, it fits the iconography of your profile.


Pity my english is not good enough for give you one good answer, but with my limited english I can see (maybe I miss understood you )but I think you are not very happy with my post ..and my icone, I am sorry for you I just want to try to explain here what happen in this country, because news like this usually never appear in the spanish media, I am not against Spain (I or we) we are against this antidemocratic spanish governments.
"if the independentists ever get hold of power and proclaim their quasi DYSTOPIAN ISOLATED STATE!" hehe,You have the same problem than the spaniards, the spanish media is very strong and they expend 24 hours a day explaining how bad are the catalan people and how bad is to want to recover our own government that we loose in 1714 under the spanish army.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/opinion/the-ghosts-spain-tries-to-ignore.html?_r=0


Thank you for posting that and for bringing it to the attention of others.

It has always been of concern to me that the current 'democratic' system in Spain was essentially designed by Franco himself and consequently the issues highlighted in the report are not so surprising. Nonetheless, it is to be hoped that power will return to the left of the political spectrum in the not too distant future and with sufficient stability to enable many of these issues to be properly addressed. Whilst the past cannot be undone, it should not be swept under the carpet.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EverHopeful said:


> Thank you for posting that and for bringing it to the attention of others.
> 
> It has always been of concern to me that the current 'democratic' system in Spain was essentially designed by Franco himself and consequently the issues highlighted in the report are not so surprising. Nonetheless, it is to be hoped that power will return to the left of the political spectrum in the not too distant future and with sufficient stability to enable many of these issues to be properly addressed. Whilst the past cannot be undone, it should not be swept under the carpet.


I hope you are right about the left returning to power in Spain but I very much doubt that will happen in the near future, mainly because of the system you rightly criticise.
Our local Alcalde (PP) has done a great job in improving the town, cleaning it up, making it more attractive for locals, tourists and investors but his wider political views are concerning to many. He has the habit of referring to the 'alleged crimes of Franco' and called a PSOE Concejal who denounced corrupt local politicians a 'grass' at a public meeting.
He was elected to the Cortes in December last year but had to step down as he wanted to continue as Alcalde. In the UK this would have led to a by-election but here the number two on the list stepped up to take his place.
To me, the 'list' system is deeply undemocratic in that it has a 'take it or leave it' approach to all the candidates on the list. So if you want to support say PSOE you find yourself obliged to vote for a candidate you may find unappealing for many reasons.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I hope you are right about the left returning to power in Spain but I very much doubt that will happen in the near future, mainly because of the system you rightly criticise.
> Our local Alcalde (PP) has done a great job in improving the town, cleaning it up, making it more attractive for locals, tourists and investors but his wider political views are concerning to many. He has the habit of referring to the 'alleged crimes of Franco' and called a PSOE Concejal who denounced corrupt local politicians a 'grass' at a public meeting.
> He was elected to the Cortes in December last year but had to step down as he wanted to continue as Alcalde. In the UK this would have led to a by-election but here the number two on the list stepped up to take his place.
> To me, the 'list' system is deeply undemocratic in that it has a 'take it or leave it' approach to all the candidates on the list. So if you want to support say PSOE you find yourself obliged to vote for a candidate you may find unappealing for many reasons.


I didn't say near future (little hope of that, I suspect) - I said I hoped it would be in the 'not too distant future'. I'm only too aware that the current system makes it very difficult.

As the article says, there are many who were part of Franco's system who are still around and in powerful and/or influential positions, not to mention those who take the same view.

But you never know - I doubt that Rajoy et al will be able to keep a firm grasp on power indefinitely, and at least they now have a 'partner' (for want of a better word) that might make maintaining the status quo more difficult.

(I would rather see this proceed democratically than otherwise, but sometimes, or even quite often, I suspect there could be an uprising and I would hate to see bloodshed and the things that preceded Franco start all over again.)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EverHopeful said:


> .
> 
> (I would rather see this proceed democratically than otherwise, but sometimes, or even quite often, I suspect there could be an uprising and I would hate to see bloodshed and the things that preceded Franco start all over again.)


Interesting that you think that. I often wonder why there isn't an uprising and put it down to a number of things, like lack of interest/apathy, fatalism or most people being satisfied with the way things are.
After all, there are many times more of 'us' than of 'them'.
Most uprisings/revolutions haven't been led by the masses, though, have they. The only genuine popular revolution in the last three hundred years or more has been the mass movements which overthrew socialism in Central and Eastern Europe....and many people who enthusiastically took part in them now regret doing so.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting that you think that. I often wonder why there isn't an uprising and put it down to a number of things, like lack of interest/apathy, fatalism or most people being satisfied with the way things are.
> After all, there are many times more of 'us' than of 'them'.
> Most uprisings/revolutions haven't been led by the masses, though, have they. The only genuine popular revolution in the last three hundred years or more has been the mass movements which overthrew socialism in Central and Eastern Europe....and many people who enthusiastically took part in them now regret doing so.


Or that in Spain's case the Civil War is relatively recent and the Franco era very much so. Having lived in Spain during the Franco era, I can say that it was not easy to express political opinion (albeit I and others did take quite significant risks - and people did disappear and the Guardia Civil did sometimes appear and cart everyone on the premises away). IMHO it's at least one reason why people try other avenues.

"More of 'us' than of 'them'" - how could you know in the current environment, which is potentially not as easy as your own experience might suggest?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EverHopeful said:


> "More of 'us' than of 'them'" - how could you know in the current environment, which is potentially not as easy as your own experience might suggest?


By 'more of us' I meant those of us not in the 2% or whatever the percentage is that own most of the world's wealth.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> By 'more of us' I meant those of us not in the 2% or whatever the percentage is that own most of the world's wealth.


OK, I didn't get that that's what you meant. However, looking around the world the fact that there are (far, far) more of us than of them, doesn't really seem to have an impact on power structures  Quite aside from the fact that it's not just the top 2% who are wielding the power, it's also those who believe they can benefit from that wealth or are otherwise influenced by it.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Pity my english is not good enough for give you one good answer, but with my limited english I can see (maybe I miss understood you )but I think you are not very happy with my post ..and my icone, I am sorry for you I just want to try to explain here what happen in this country, because news like this usually never appear in the spanish media, I am not against Spain (I or we) we are against this antidemocratic spanish governments.
> "if the independentists ever get hold of power and proclaim their quasi DYSTOPIAN ISOLATED STATE!" hehe,You have the same problem than the spaniards, the spanish media is very strong and they expend 24 hours a day explaining how bad are the catalan people and how bad is to want to recover our own government that we loose in 1714 under the spanish army.


I agree, I think the attitude of non-Catalan Spanish people (not just on the right) towards Catalan independence is blinkered and shortsighted and the media reflects this. I've never seen a balanced argument in El País, for example, which I read every day. 

The Constitution says it is illegal to hold a referendum, and therefore the Constitution should be changed. Otherwise this sore will continue to fester. They should learn a lesson from the UK, which allowed the Scots to express their will. They voted to remain in the UK, which surprised many, but without a legal plebiscite we will never know what the majority of Catalans want.

http://www.euronews.com/2015/12/14/spain-must-take-constitutional-reform-by-the-horns


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

Yes, half the world kept their fingers crossed when the Scottish vote was taking place. It would have been catastrophic for both parties. Mind you that the Scotland issue is quite, quite different from the Catalan one, as the UK is formed by the political union of independent, historically defined kingdoms. I don't think that plebiscites, particularly clearly unconstitutional ones, reflect a responsible way of conducting government business. It might sound very democratic in an ideal society, but they are, or have the potential to be –and this has been argued since classic philosophy times- exactly the opposite; even more under the new reality of mass social media nowadays, where a sleek, numerical minority, but with a well-focused support group, can exert an inordinate influence on the generally apathetic and uninformed electorate. This is where participatory democracy invalidates representative democracy. Brexit and many other recent instances are examples. There you have it: scare tactics, flagrant lies and exaggerations, ill-intended false statistical data quotes, tipped the balance in one direction and the country at large and the general population, including the very same people who voted to approve this dramatic change in established policy, which was the fruit of years of academic research and democratic parliamentary votes, will suffer the consequences for generations to come. What do you think would happen if a Brexit vote came to be again? Wouldn’t you think that the same people would vote differently this time? That the public would take the consequences more seriously and go massively to the urns to turn back the clock? Quick consults pose an inherent danger in any society and when Constitutions specifically disapprove of these, you have the elements of instability and sectarization that do away with fruitful societies. The case for Catalonia independence from Spain is plagued by that type of rhetoric, wrapped in the fabrication of historical roots and purportedly unfair distribution of wealth. The basic principles are simple: An ethnic group that developed independently from the country of Spain –and for that matter France too, was crushed politically, commercially and physically by the Spaniards and nowadays is exploited economically by the rest of Spain, all of which does not resist any serious analysis. That claim, if we are at it, should imaginably, enthuse, why not, a future boundary between Iberian and Celtic pre-Roman lands. Notwithstanding the fallacious and anachronistic nature of the claim, Spain, like any State is at a disadvantage when trying to counteract deceitful forces, maybe for the so called Brandolini's Law. Of course, I am not trivializing historic events and abuses, like those of the Franco years, but all of Spain suffered those. Having said all of the above, I have reached my limit in terms of expressing my opinion here on this subject, where I come rather to enjoy and learn from people's reports on their daily experiences of living in Spain, which I can't wait to call home very soon.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

The other thing about the Scottish referendum was that the Unionist parties came North and made a vow of promises about a federal type state; promises about devolving more powers which either never transpired or were diluted.
The main difference between Scotland and Catalonia is the size of the population and the economy of the Region which also frightened people - Project Fear. 
A lot of Spaiards outside of Catalunya fear they will be left behind. 
The Northern League in Italy would gladly cut off Southern Spain and Sicily as they claim they are too heavily subsidised by the North


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Yes, half the world kept their fingers crossed when the Scottish vote was taking place. It would have been catastrophic for both parties. Mind you that the Scotland issue is quite, quite different from the Catalan one, as the UK is formed by the political union of independent, historically defined kingdoms. I don't think that plebiscites, particularly clearly unconstitutional ones, reflect a responsible way of conducting government business. It might sound very democratic in an ideal society, but they are, or have the potential to be –and this has been argued since classic philosophy times- exactly the opposite; even more under the new reality of mass social media nowadays, where a sleek, numerical minority, but with a well-focused support group, can exert an inordinate influence on the generally apathetic and uninformed electorate. This is where participatory democracy invalidates representative democracy. Brexit and many other recent instances are examples. There you have it: scare tactics, flagrant lies and exaggerations, ill-intended false statistical data quotes, tipped the balance in one direction and the country at large and the general population, including the very same people who voted to approve this dramatic change in established policy, which was the fruit of years of academic research and democratic parliamentary votes, will suffer the consequences for generations to come. What do you think would happen if a Brexit vote came to be again? Wouldn’t you think that the same people would vote differently this time? That the public would take the consequences more seriously and go massively to the urns to turn back the clock? Quick consults pose an inherent danger in any society and when Constitutions specifically disapprove of these, you have the elements of instability and sectarization that do away with fruitful societies. The case for Catalonia independence from Spain is plagued by that type of rhetoric, wrapped in the fabrication of historical roots and purportedly unfair distribution of wealth. The basic principles are simple: An ethnic group that developed independently from the country of Spain –and for that matter France too, was crushed politically, commercially and physically by the Spaniards and nowadays is exploited economically by the rest of Spain, all of which does not resist any serious analysis. That claim, if we are at it, should imaginably, enthuse, why not, a future boundary between Iberian and Celtic pre-Roman lands. Notwithstanding the fallacious and anachronistic nature of the claim, Spain, like any State is at a disadvantage when trying to counteract deceitful forces, maybe for the so called Brandolini's Law. Of course, I am not trivializing historic events and abuses, like those of the Franco years, but all of Spain suffered those. Having said all of the above, I have reached my limit in terms of expressing my opinion here on this subject, where I come rather to enjoy and learn from people's reports on their daily experiences of living in Spain, which I can't wait to call home very soon.


Good to have your input, though some paragraph breaks would be nice!

I hear what you're saying but I think the argument for self-determination is stronger. National boundaries are arbitrary and have shifted like sand dunes in what we now call Europe over the past 1000 years. They are not set in stone (see video). If people "feel" they are part of a separate tribe, and want to be a separate nation, they have a right to express their desires legally. Notwithstanding, I'm not at all convinced that the separatists would win in Cataluña.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Yes, half the world kept their fingers crossed when the Scottish vote was taking place. It would have been catastrophic for both parties. Mind you that the Scotland issue is quite, quite different from the Catalan one, as the UK is formed by the political union of independent, historically defined kingdoms. I don't think that plebiscites, particularly clearly unconstitutional ones, reflect a responsible way of conducting government business. It might sound very democratic in an ideal society, but they are, or have the potential to be –and this has been argued since classic philosophy times- exactly the opposite; even more under the new reality of mass social media nowadays, where a sleek, numerical minority, but with a well-focused support group, can exert an inordinate influence on the generally apathetic and uninformed electorate. This is where participatory democracy invalidates representative democracy. Brexit and many other recent instances are examples. There you have it: scare tactics, flagrant lies and exaggerations, ill-intended false statistical data quotes, tipped the balance in one direction and the country at large and the general population, including the very same people who voted to approve this dramatic change in established policy, which was the fruit of years of academic research and democratic parliamentary votes, will suffer the consequences for generations to come. What do you think would happen if a Brexit vote came to be again? Wouldn’t you think that the same people would vote differently this time? That the public would take the consequences more seriously and go massively to the urns to turn back the clock? Quick consults pose an inherent danger in any society and when Constitutions specifically disapprove of these, you have the elements of instability and sectarization that do away with fruitful societies. The case for Catalonia independence from Spain is plagued by that type of rhetoric, wrapped in the fabrication of historical roots and purportedly unfair distribution of wealth. The basic principles are simple: An ethnic group that developed independently from the country of Spain –and for that matter France too, was crushed politically, commercially and physically by the Spaniards and nowadays is exploited economically by the rest of Spain, all of which does not resist any serious analysis. That claim, if we are at it, should imaginably, enthuse, why not, a future boundary between Iberian and Celtic pre-Roman lands. Notwithstanding the fallacious and anachronistic nature of the claim, Spain, like any State is at a disadvantage when trying to counteract deceitful forces, maybe for the so called Brandolini's Law. Of course, I am not trivializing historic events and abuses, like those of the Franco years, but all of Spain suffered those. Having said all of the above, I have reached my limit in terms of expressing my opinion here on this subject, where I come rather to enjoy and learn from people's reports on their daily experiences of living in Spain, which I can't wait to call home very soon.


" Mind you that the Scotland issue is quite, quite different from the Catalan one, as the UK is formed by the political union of independent, historically defined kingdoms."then for you is correct that the scotish can get one referendum because they where independent kingdoms, however the catalan dont get this right because we e loose the war against Spain (because we was abandoned for England)..we dont have this right however we had our own government since 1359 (Generalitat de Catalunya) we had our own language, our own currency and laws, and now we don't have the right of one referendum because we loose the war and pay with thousand of lives and live under Spain for more than 3 centuries.
You are using the same arguments than the spanish governments,again and again you repeat the same garbage than the spaniards ,I invite you to enter in wikipedia or similar places of internet and read the history and look if we are fabricating false histories (I think you are one spanish member of the CNI ,(hehe) after read that you say "The case for Catalonia independence from Spain is plagued by that type of rhetoric, wrapped in the fabrication of historical roots and purportedly unfair distribution of wealth. ", why you don't read the history, but not the spanish version, you can find easily in internet the real history wikipedia for example or similars.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> " Mind you that the Scotland issue is quite, quite different from the Catalan one, as the UK is formed by the political union of independent, historically defined kingdoms."then for you is correct that the scotish can get one referendum because they where independent kingdoms, however the catalan dont get this right because we e loose the war against Spain (because we was abandoned for England)..we dont have this right however we had our own government since 1359 (Generalitat de Catalunya) we had our own language, our own currency and laws, and now we don't have the right of one referendum because we loose the war and pay with thousand of lives and live under Spain for more than 3 centuries.
> You are using the same arguments than the spanish governments,again and again you repeat the same garbage than the spaniards ,I invite you to enter in wikipedia or similar places of internet and read the history and look if we are fabricating false histories (I think you are one spanish member of the CNI ,(hehe) after read that you say "The case for Catalonia independence from Spain is plagued by that type of rhetoric, wrapped in the fabrication of historical roots and purportedly unfair distribution of wealth. ", why you don't read the history, but not the spanish version, you can find easily in internet the real history wikipedia for example or similars.
> https://youtu.be/gOB2hZENIcQ






,
This is because Spain dont want the secesion of Catalonia, we are the 20% of his GDP,and they are using all the lies to intoxicate everybody, like you (if you are not one of they).


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

https://www.eyeonspain.com/blogs/ca...714---The-Case-of-the-Catalans-Considerd.aspx


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Catalan separatists defy Spain in pursuit of ‘utopia’ – POLITICO


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Catalan separatists defy Spain in pursuit of ‘utopia’ – POLITICO


Good luck to them! But I worry that the involvement of the anti-capitalist CUP party will alienate the centre ground and damage your cause. How much support does CUP have across the region?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mick, what is your position on Gibraltar?


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Good to have your input, though some paragraph breaks would be nice!
> 
> I hear what you're saying but I think the argument for self-determination is stronger. National boundaries are arbitrary and have shifted like sand dunes in what we now call Europe over the past 1000 years. They are not set in stone (see video). If people "feel" they are part of a separate tribe, and want to be a separate nation, they have a right to express their desires legally. Notwithstanding, I'm not at all convinced that the separatists would win in Cataluña.


Sorry about that, you are right about the breaks! I agree with your assumption about the separatists in Catalonia not winning. In terms of the right to be with "your own tribe", it is a much more complex issue than assuring a people's right to self-determination. The premise runs against the founding concept of the EU. Isn't that what caused so much pain to Europe in the last centuries. I mean, even the WWII Germans used that argument quite forcibly. Nowadays, the Russian tribe across all over Eastern Europe wants unification...


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> mick, what is your position on Gibraltar?


...and for that matter, Crimea, Transnistria, the FYROM and Greece, the Turkish rejuvenated arguments for the lands of the former Ottoman Empire, etc...


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

*Gibraltar for the Gibraltarians.*



mrypg9 said:


> mick, what is your position on Gibraltar?


I don't know if you know that in Gibraltar there are a beach called beach of catalan, this is because 300 catalan soldiers was in Gibraltar helping the british troops to conqueror Gibraltar, you will find information in internet, however we (the catalan) help the brits but they abandone us against the french and spanish troops in 1714.
My position about Gibraltar,, anD the position of all the majority of the catalan is NEVER GIVE GIBRALTAR TO SPAIN, if the people of Gibraltar one day decide the union with Spain they must know that in few month Gibraltar will be poor like their neighbours,Spain is expert in suck the blood of the rich regions they do the same job since centuries ago,remeber the South American countries , however despite suck the blood of the other places they are allways poor , in the 19th century for example Spain have one bankrupt (one more) because they after see the first train in Catalonia, Barcelona Mataró (1848) paid by catalan businessmans,they decide that want one train too but the spanish Quenn Isabel II want this train for go to her palaces around Madrid el Retiro ,etc etc, after the construction of the rail ways Spain falls in bankrupt then need money and go to banks from Germany and Holland, and they say that they borrow money with one condition, they must adopt the catalan currency, ( la peseta) because only the peseta have one industry behind, instead the spanish currency.
This kind of histories never apear in the spanish media, for this reason I like to write here, pity my english is not enoug good.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Sorry about that, you are right about the breaks! I agree with your assumption about the separatists in Catalonia not winning. In terms of the right to be with "your own tribe", it is a much more complex issue than assuring a people's right to self-determination. The premise runs against the founding concept of the EU. Isn't that what caused so much pain to Europe in the last centuries. I mean, even the WWII Germans used that argument quite forcibly. Nowadays, the Russian tribe across all over Eastern Europe wants unification...


You are using the same arguments than the spanish media, read your posts is like read, el Mundo, La Razón,ABC,..El País, or watch the Spanish channels of tv, like 13TV, or TVE, I don't know why,they allways explain how bad will be for us the independence, and how insolidaries we are with the other regions of Spain, the problem begins when the donor is in worst condition than the receptor of this solidarity, for example, the children of Extremadura have his own computer in their schools, how ever the catalan no, and his president say if the catalan children dont have money maybe they go to Andorra there there are money from Pujol, in Catalonia the children receive the classes in Catalan and in spanish, and when the children finish their clases the level of spanish even is a little bit higger than the spanish students,(spanish government source) the majority of spaniards dont agree with this and the spanish government create one law that say if in one class one single student say hi dont understand what the professor say then all the class must turn to spanish, of course we don't aplicate this law,even if the fathers of one student want that their son receive the classes in spanish the generalitat must pay the particular classes for this student.
Spain dont have 1300 milions for pay the conexion with the port of Barcelona to the international railway with european width how ever have 5500 milions in rescue freways around Madrid, Don't have money for make the mediterranean corridor however they have enough money for pay kilometers of trains AVE without passengers,we the catalan people are tired of Spain, very tired.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

HUM, my last post is for rpbalbis2, not for alcalaina, sorry.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Sorry about that, you are right about the breaks! I agree with your assumption about the separatists in Catalonia not winning. In terms of the right to be with "your own tribe", it is a much more complex issue than assuring a people's right to self-determination. The premise runs against the founding concept of the EU. Isn't that what caused so much pain to Europe in the last centuries. I mean, even the WWII Germans used that argument quite forcibly. Nowadays, the Russian tribe across all over Eastern Europe wants unification...


How does the premise of self determination run against the founding concept of the EU, as embodied in the Treaty of Rome? 
Surely what was envisaged was a united Europe of nation states. 
It could be argued that Nazi Germany had a valid point in that the Versailles Treaty redrew the map of Europe on the grounds of political convenience and not the wishes of the people? To take one instance, pre-1939 Czechoslovakia had a non-Czech speaking minority of Germans and Hungarians of almost 40%. Didn't the same thing happen with the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire? Artificial lines drawn regardless of people's wishes?
We all know the tragic outcome of those mistakes.
I personally think that independence would be bad for Catalunya and for Spain but I would put the wishes of the majority above all other considerations and if Catalans vote for independence, so be it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mickbcn said:


> HUM, my last post is for rpbalbis2, not for alcalaina, sorry.


I've sorted it out by fixing the quote


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> How does the premise of self determination run against the founding concept of the EU, as embodied in the Treaty of Rome?
> Surely what was envisaged was a united Europe of nation states.
> It could be argued that Nazi Germany had a valid point in that the Versailles Treaty redrew the map of Europe on the grounds of political convenience and not the wishes of the people? To take one instance, pre-1939 Czechoslovakia had a non-Czech speaking minority of Germans and Hungarians of almost 40%. Didn't the same thing happen with the dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire? Artificial lines drawn regardless of people's wishes?
> We all know the tragic outcome of those mistakes.
> I personally think that independence would be bad for Catalunya and for Spain but I would put the wishes of the majority above all other considerations and if Catalans vote for independence, so be it.


Sorry but hearing someone seemingly to argue that Nazi Germany had any valid point in anything scares the h… out me. By the way there were significant German minorities in many other European countries too, as Germany was an exporter of industrious settlers. That they eventually would acquire any legitimate right to self-determination is rather preposterous and was indeed the source of countless conflicts.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Sorry but hearing someone seemingly to argue that Nazi Germany had any valid point in anything scares the h… out me. By the way there were significant German minorities in many other European countries too, as Germany was an exporter of industrious settlers. That they eventually would acquire any legitimate right to self-determination is rather preposterous and was indeed the source of countless conflicts.


It is a fact that there was a substantial German ethnic minority in pre-war Czechoslovakia and that this minority was discriminated against. It is also a fact that this came about because of the somewhat arbitrary redrawing of the national borders after the collapse of the Habsburg Empire.
So in making a claim to the Sudetenland Germany did indeed have a point, one that was conceded by Great Britain amongst other western powers. Nothing to be scared of, it's a completely separate issue from the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes.
The position of German minorities in other parts of Europe is no way comparable to that of the Sudeten Germans. They were not 'exported'. They stayed, their national frontiers were redrawn due to pressure from Czech nationalists like Masaryk.
Yes, claims to self-determination has been the source of countless conflicts and continues to be, not only in the Middle East and Israel/Palestine.
Majority wishes are at times inconvenient to policy makers.


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## Mac62 (May 13, 2015)

rpbalbis2 said:


> Sorry but hearing someone seemingly to argue that Nazi Germany had any valid point in anything scares the h… out me. By the way there were significant German minorities in many other European countries too, as Germany was an exporter of industrious settlers. That they eventually would acquire any legitimate right to self-determination is rather preposterous and was indeed the source of countless conflicts.


I imagine the First Peoples of North America may understand that last sentence rpbalbis2? Who knows, maybe the Nazis modeled their "Lebensraum Policy" on The U.S.'s strategy of pacifying the West, South, North, Middle and East of the U.S.?! Makes you think, no?


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## roywood (Nov 1, 2016)

Mac62 said:


> I imagine the First Peoples of North America may understand that last sentence rpbalbis2? *Who knows, maybe the Nazis modeled their "Lebensraum Policy" on The U.S.'s strategy of pacifying the West, South, North, Middle and East of the U.S.?! Makes you think, no?*


Not sure of the point in the bolded above. Tribal migration isn't a new phenomenon. Native Americans themselves moved around and expropriated the lands used by other tribes, as has been done in Europe and elsewhere for millenia. 

Euro elite managed the colonies' affairs, and their descendants maintain a significant degree of control of US national policy to this day. So perhaps the idea is that lessons learned by these elites (in a group sense, not individually) in intra-European conflicts, as well as other inter-religious and inter-national conflicts such as the Crusades, the fights against the Moors and the Ottomans, and colonial adventures elsewhere, were applied against American natives. British elites did the applying in the US and Canada, and Spanish and Portuguese elites took care of the native peoples in the rest of the western hemisphere.

ln some ways the past century or so seems to be characterized by greater awareness of and sensitivity to the rights of minorities. So perhaps something more sophisticated than self-determination is called for. Can the Turks accept the Kurds and vice-versa, with a degree of regional autonomy inside a larger (federal-type?) entity? Or can the Kurds survive in lands carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq, without falling prey to irredentist movements in one or more of those countries? Is there an option other than independence for Catalunya?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

roywood said:


> ln some ways the past century or so seems to be characterized by greater awareness of and sensitivity to the rights of minorities. So perhaps something more sophisticated than self-determination is called for. Can the Turks accept the Kurds and vice-versa, with a degree of regional autonomy inside a larger (federal-type?) entity? Or can the Kurds survive in lands carved out of Turkey, Syria and Iraq, without falling prey to irredentist movements in one or more of those countries? Is there an option other than independence for Catalunya?


I hope so. I'm not a fan of nationalism but I guess it's a necessary evil. I'd love to see a federal European union where national boundaries become merely symbolic and self-determined groups such as the Scots or the Catalans have their own voices. Deeply Untopian I'm afraid...

Incidentally, Thomas More's book _Utopia_ was published exactly 500 years ago. Does it still have any relevance today? There is an attempt by the Kurds to set up their own Utopia in Rojava, Syria.

A dream of secular Utopia in ISIS's backyard (NY Times)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I hope so. I'm not a fan of nationalism but I guess it's a necessary evil. I'd love to see a federal European union where national boundaries become merely symbolic and self-determined groups such as the Scots or the Catalans have their own voices. Deeply Untopian I'm afraid...
> 
> Incidentally, Thomas More's book _Utopia_ was published exactly 500 years ago. Does it still have any relevance today? There is an attempt by the Kurds to set up their own Utopia in Rojava, Syria.
> 
> A dream of secular Utopia in ISIS's backyard (NY Times)


Why should nationalism per se be 'evil', though. Is the desire of many Scots or Catalans to have an independent nation 'evil', to give just two instances of a desire for an independent nation state?

National boundaries can never be merely 'symbolic' for many reasons, one because the majority would find such a notion unacceptable and because of the sheer practicalities of administering vast tracts of territory. 
But it's possible to have a federation of nations with distinct national boundaries and identities in a defined area....European nations have many common interests that could come under a federal arrangement. Perhaps the major obstacle to closer integration might be culture/ethnic/religious differences though. These aren't easily ignored or soothed over.
Thomas More....often made out to be a saint but in fact a zealous persecutor and killer of heretics. More's Utopia would definitely be some kind of theocracy....his kind.


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## rpbalbis2 (Nov 2, 2014)

Mac62 said:


> I imagine the First Peoples of North America may understand that last sentence rpbalbis2? Who knows, maybe the Nazis modeled their "Lebensraum Policy" on The U.S.'s strategy of pacifying the West, South, North, Middle and East of the U.S.?! Makes you think, no?


Nope. Whatever you are trying to say does not make me think of anything. I mean Nazi Lebensraum, Native Americans genocide and colonial expansion in North America is a convoluted mix. But I am happy you feel better now for saying it and some for reading it.


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## Mac62 (May 13, 2015)

Hi rpbalbis2

My reply was a simple postulation on how incidents in history can/could be viewed in a variety of ways, as was offered by the poster you responded to. 

My response obviously did make you think of something, otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to reply, nor offer your own particular view on a certain era of United States of America history, or should it now be known as United States of European America? Are the cheery parts of U.S. history, American? And the dark parts only reserved for the European Americans? 

Am I a Scottish Britonian American?

And should historical amnesia be covered by health plans?!

Please take all this with a healthy pinch of sea salt rpbalbis2

Cheers!


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