# Buyers take note: Couple's dream Spanish home demolished by planning officials



## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

Couple's dream Spanish home demolished by planning officials after villa was built by rogue developer without permission | Mail Online


Note also that: 



> Local mayor Pedro Llamas also illegally authorised the supply of water and electricity to the home and also received a suspended prison term.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Theres another well documented case similar from a few years ago Helen and Len Prior: British couple lived in a garage for 4 years after their Spanish villa was demolished | Mail Online

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The houses started to be constructed without licences in 2002. The Junta put a stop to it in 2004 by ordering demolition.
The builder/promoter carried on.
In 2005 they were sold , via estate agents, to British families using abogados & through the notary !!
All were connected , legally , to water & electric.
In 2005 the Junta notified them all that they were illegal & had demolition orders on.
They all gave up eventually.
The builder has been given 23 months in prison , fined & ordered to pay compensation to all families.
He has declared himself bankrupt.
The Mayor, who signed the orders for connection for water & electricity, has been given 5 months in prison, fined & banned from public office for 23 months. He denies ever signing the orders.

The Junta should be going after all those involved from the moment the 1st demolition order was put in place & arresting them all.
The 2nd 2 houses have a stay of execution as the local council have obtained a court order to the effect that there was no demolition licence, nor environmental assessment, in place for the first 2 & nor is there for those still standing. The Junta say they don't need one.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Quite a few here in the Canary Islands are built without planning permission. You have to be extremely careful when purchasing.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

If anyone is suffering the threat of tear-down, I wonder if AMA (Asociación de Maltratados por la Administración) could help? INOCENTES DE CANTABRIA They're out of Cantabria and I don't think they're national but the fight is always easier when you've got a group on your side! 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/AMA-Asociación-de-Maltratados-por-la-Administración/178254098859709


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

wouldnt the solicitor be liable if you bought one which was illegal?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

*Dear Spain*

Oh dear you have done it again, yes I know that you thought it was correct but your action will again cost you dear.

You must know by now that Spain is by far the first choice for N/Europeans thinking about retiring/getting out of the rat race.
You have a country that is blessed by pretty good roads/airports & an increasingly better rail system (so I read re-rail)
So as you know its an easy place to get to & of course its a Big Place !

As you know the press had a field day with the Priors issue & yes they won their case in court (so I read), but I also read that they are still living in the garage ?
This was a good few years back now & we now have another ex-pat house video on the webb being pulled down for being illegal.

Yes we know that due justice was served onto those responsible & as you know the family who's house you just demolished did indeed go through the correct channels when buying, but it would seem that they are in fact the one's bearing the burden.

It odds on (as you know) that the Mayor/Developer involved have quite a few property's that they own.
Yes I can see you nodding.
Yes of course they are not in their names but we/you know that the family could never afford such a lavish lifestyle on a mere Mayors income, so a quick peck at the books will reveal all.

So remedy is simple (is it not)
Asset strip those in charge / those professionals involved & repay/compensate those affected ! (simples)
Not that simple you say ?
I see although you have laws & professional standards it would not do to upset the brown envelope way of things & yes we can understand how this might be tricky when even those at the very top oversee the BE regime.

Well OK.
Let us assume then that for donkeys years a very large proportion of cars sold in Spain were ringers, yes openly sold on main dealer forecourts.
The police / finance company's / management / salespeople / HPI check system knew that they were ringers, and if stopped it was customary to pay a small fine to get it legalised even though you bought it in good faith (everyone is happy)
Few years down the line when you take it for its ITV they take it out the back & crush it !
? why did you do that ?, well it was a ringer did you not know ?

Yes you can see where we are coming from (maybe not)

BTW I take it the Mayor will be eligible to stand at the next local elections & having a criminal record will be no bar to being accepted back into public office. 

Hey Spain lucky this is not the forces as you would be up on a charge for a self inflicted wound.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

playamonte said:


> Oh dear you have done it again, yes I know that you thought it was correct but your action will again cost you dear.
> 
> You must know by now that Spain is by far the first choice for N/Europeans thinking about retiring/getting out of the rat race.
> You have a country that is blessed by pretty good roads/airports & an increasingly better rail system (so I read re-rail)
> ...


Well, you must live in utopia, crime free and and everybody has no fears. Hang on a minute, did I see a problem on UK TV the other day called Rip Off Britain. Wow, some things you mention on here are just the same. I think I'll stick with Spain, I feel safer here!


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Heartbreaking for those couples......

I am glad that we have no plans to buy !!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, fortunately the illegal practices which flourished in the construction boom are now coming to light and Spain's prisons are filling up with corrupt politicians and property developers. 
Marbella property corruption mastermind Roca jailed for 11 years | In English | EL PAÍS

Very sad for people who bought illegal homes, but you have to wonder how many of them used solicitors recommended by the vendors? Or didn't bother using a solicitor at all?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, fortunately the illegal practices which flourished in the construction boom are now coming to light and Spain's prisons are filling up with corrupt politicians and property developers.
> Marbella property corruption mastermind Roca jailed for 11 years | In English | EL PAÍS
> 
> Very sad for people who bought illegal homes, but you have to wonder how many of them used solicitors recommended by the vendors? Or didn't bother using a solicitor at all?


We were recommended to use the builders lawyer, but we had our own and she is about as good as you get. I will say this though, I now know the builders lawyer and he is a good lawyer as well. 
Our lawyer was recommended by an expat site just like this.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, fortunately the illegal practices which flourished in the construction boom are now coming to light and Spain's prisons are filling up with corrupt politicians and property developers.


Unfortunately not as quick as they should be.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Aron said:


> Well, you must live in utopia, crime free and and everybody has no fears. Hang on a minute, did I see a problem on UK TV the other day called Rip Off Britain. Wow, some things you mention on here are just the same. I think I'll stick with Spain, I feel safer here!


Oh dear. 
Aron my post was satirical (or meant to be)


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

playamonte said:


> Oh dear.
> Aron my post was satirical (or meant to be)


Thanks! Guess I am on the wrong website!


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Lonely said:


> Prison living is a burden for taxpayers.
> 
> I'd say hang them.





Indeed, but not before their illicit funds are returned to the injured parties !!!


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

Actually, I'd like to ask to the forum something about this issue:

*HOW* do you protect yourself from these things when buying in Spain, if even the Mayor cannot be trusted?

Thanks


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lonely said:


> Actually, I'd like to ask to the forum something about this issue:
> 
> *HOW* do you protect yourself from these things when buying in Spain, if even the Mayor cannot be trusted?
> 
> Thanks


Get an independent solicitor who will ensure that all the paperwork is regularised and there are no outstanding debts on the property BEFORE you sign any contract. Then get a notary to double-check it. Never be fobbed off with promises that "everything will be all right".


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## Swerve (Jun 29, 2011)

We were taken to a property in competa to view when we were looking at property to buy and we asked who had built it. The reply was oh my husband it's not totally legal but I'm sure €5000 euros would sort that out. And that was from the wife and the estate agent. We couldn't wait to get away from the place and the estate agent. 

I wonder if it's still standing.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

My view is no property should be knocked down if it means kicking someone to the curb unless the buyer(s) involved have been complicit.
All property developers should either be covered by insurance if they screw up and or a compensation fund they should all pay a % into to cover illegal builds they throw up and that cash should be ring-fenced.
Only once innocent parties have been allocated compensation should these illegal builds be bulldozed if they really need to be.

I've seen a few properties listed with a guarantee for 15 years that they are fully legal! Anyone on here have one of these or know anything about this?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Prison, crime and punishment is probably a separate issue that maybe we should debate in "La Tasca"?????


:focus:
Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Prison, crime and punishment is probably a separate issue that maybe we should debate in "La Tasca"?????
> 
> 
> :focus:
> Jo xxx


Can Neandertals navigate the net?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Muddy said:


> My view is no property should be knocked down if it means kicking someone to the curb unless the buyer(s) involved have been complicit.
> All property developers should either be covered by insurance if they screw up and or a compensation fund they should all pay a % into to cover illegal builds they throw up and that cash should be ring-fenced.
> Only once innocent parties have been allocated compensation should these illegal builds be bulldozed if they really need to be.


Absolutely! Though many of these illegal properties are standing empty, and it seems very few of them actually get demolished. Up against a brick wall | In English | EL PAÍS



Muddy said:


> I've seen a few properties listed with a guarantee for 15 years that they are fully legal! Anyone on here have one of these or know anything about this?


Here's the Spanish government advice (in English) on ensuring a property is legal. You need to get a Property Registration certificate from the vendor. I think the last government proposed that all houses on sale should have one, but the legislation didn't get passed before the election. 
http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...AD04DFC/102197/06_safeltpurchase_house_en.pdf


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's the Spanish government advice (in English) on ensuring a property is legal. You need to get a Property Registration certificate from the vendor. I think the last government proposed that all houses on sale should have one, but the legislation didn't get passed before the election.
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...AD04DFC/102197/06_safeltpurchase_house_en.pdf


Unfortunately there are quite a few in the Almanzora valley that complied with all those requirements & then had them declared illegal , after many years, by the Junta on the grounds that the council exceeded its powers by granting planning permissions.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jojo said:


> Prison, crime and punishment is probably a separate issue that maybe we should debate in "La Tasca"?????
> 
> 
> :focus:
> Jo xxx


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/244145-prison.html

Jo xxx


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

Swerve said:


> We were taken to a property in competa to view when we were looking at property to buy and we asked who had built it. The reply was oh my husband it's not totally legal but I'm sure €5000 euros would sort that out. And that was from the wife and the estate agent. We couldn't wait to get away from the place and the estate agent.
> 
> I wonder if it's still standing.




that raises another issue (hopefully the mods would not kill this one too  )

what about electrical certification and power safety??? Please do not tell me that they fix that too...by themselves


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lonely said:


> that raises another issue (hopefully the mods would not kill this one too  )


ppppssssttt, the mods didnt kill anything, we simply moved the unrelated posts to a thread of their own in La Tasca  http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/244145-prison.html

Jo


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely! Though many of these illegal properties are standing empty, and it seems very few of them actually get demolished. Up against a brick wall | In English | EL PAÍS


 Thanx Alcalaina
Would be better in my view if they started knocking down all the half built stuff, they really do look an eye sore.




> Here's the Spanish government advice (in English) on ensuring a property is legal. You need to get a Property Registration certificate from the vendor. I think the last government proposed that all houses on sale should have one, but the legislation didn't get passed before the election.
> http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonly...AD04DFC/102197/06_safeltpurchase_house_en.pdf


Thanx for that, I will walk away from anything not 100%, but it seems what might be legal today, may not be tomorrow in some cases.

Has anyone purchased a property with a legal guarantee backed my an insurance company?
So sort of title deeds insurance!
If you see this should you be worried, or should it help put your mind to rest if they are willing to offer this free with the sale of the property?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Slightly off-topic, but relevant, is that earlier in the week the ECHR ruled that the Parot Doctrine was illegal when applied retrospectively to the convicted ETA terrorists.
This would seem to set a precedent that , as common sense would dictate, you cannot apply any law retrospectively . Therefore with the Ley De La Costa being mainly applied up until now retrospectively most demolitions under it would have been illegal & any houses now deemed illegal by the Junta's cannot be demolished as they would also be covered ?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Slightly off-topic, but relevant, is that earlier in the week the ECHR ruled that the Parot Doctrine was illegal when applied retrospectively to the convicted ETA terrorists.
> This would seem to set a precedent that , as common sense would dictate, you cannot apply any law retrospectively . Therefore with the Ley De La Costa being mainly applied up until now retrospectively most demolitions under it would have been illegal & any houses now deemed illegal by the Junta's cannot be demolished as they would also be covered ?


Four days ago someone asked a local concejal, could a demolition similar to the latest one happen in our area. He answered with one word, yes. Now where the law stands on the issue, it is way beyond me, but if a local councillor says it could happen, then I am inclined to believe it could.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

That's basically because they go along in there own little world oblivious to new rulings, EU rules taking precedence, how rulings on other matters, like I posted, affect the laws/rules they are supposed to be enacting. 
I asked the question of the AUAN spokeswoman who replied that it could possibly affect house demolitions in some way but as the ECHR specifically referred to Article 9 of the Spanish Constitution , which states that no law can be retrospectively enforced, it would appear that the people affected under the Ley De La Costa's would have a slam dunk case using this ruling as ammunition.


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## rafsanjani (Oct 6, 2013)

so if all the officials involved were on the take how the hell do I find one that is trustworthy!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

recommendation , luck & extreme difficulty.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

A good Abogado helps !



Jo


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> A good Abogado helps !
> 
> 
> 
> Jo


yes, & not the one recommended by the agent nor the vendor!


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

There are more coming...

100,000 expats whose homes could be bulldozed any day | Mail Online

Expats' sunshine villas in Spain doomed to be demolished | Mail Online

Spanish government accused of pushing illegal homes to Britons - Telegraph


I am no longer thinking to buy in Spain. I will just rent!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lonely said:


> There are more coming...
> 
> 100,000 expats whose homes could be bulldozed any day | Mail Online
> 
> ...


You need to look at the facts not the media's version. For a start take a look at who sold those homes, who were the agents that made loads of false promises? the chances are that you will find, in many, if not all, cases they were Brits. What do dodgy time-share salesmen do when stopped from selling dodgy time-shares - they sell dodgy property or set themselves up as property developers and invite the dubious local mayor to grant dodgy licences for a share of the illegal profits. When the Regional government says the properties are illegal, it is not their fault. The dodgy Brit developers who started the scam have all disappeared with their share of the profits leaving the local mayor to take the blame. 

Surely, you say, the lawyers should have sussed all this out before getting the buyers to sign on the dotted line but where did the buyer get the lawyer? Chances are it was the helpful person suggested by the agent and was also getting a share of the profits or at least a boost to the business.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> You need to look at the facts not the media's version. For a start take a look at who sold those homes, who were the agents that made loads of false promises? the chances are that you will find, in many, if not all, cases they were Brits. What do dodgy time-share salesmen do when stopped from selling dodgy time-shares - they sell dodgy property or set themselves up as property developers and invite the dubious local mayor to grant dodgy licences for a share of the illegal profits. When the Regional government says the properties are illegal, it is not their fault. The dodgy Brit developers who started the scam have all disappeared with their share of the profits leaving the local mayor to take the blame.
> 
> Surely, you say, the lawyers should have sussed all this out before getting the buyers to sign on the dotted line but where did the buyer get the lawyer? Chances are it was the helpful person suggested by the agent and was also getting a share of the profits or at least a boost to the business.


Quite!!

There is another Forum with a thread that seems to be totally devoted to people whingeing and moaning about soured property deals or off-plan developments which never materialised. Of course it's never the fault of these poor unfortunates....
My favourite was the woman who had bought an illegal property who posted that 'the agent for the developer was ever so nice. He took us out to lunch a couple of times and paid for everything. He even took us to a lawyer who said he would do everything for us cheaply'.....
Then there were people who parted with tens of thousands of £s for developmemts that existed only on paper.
Apologies to anyone reading this who has successfully bought off-plan....but I cannot imagine I would ever give up 10p let alone huge sums of money for something that doesn't exist.
I think off-plan must be the truest definition of a 'dream property'.
Would you pay for a pair of jeans that hadn't been made? Or a car that hadn't even started its journey to the production line?

When you buy from a piece of paper you have no real idea of what the finished product will be like. You can't put a poor ambience or neighbours from hell on those lovely little plans with little people, trees etc.

Maybe a million people have successfully bought homes in Spain. 
Spaniards buy homes too, of course...and some of them fall foul of the authorities. 
It's foolish to panic and exaggerate the problem. Some people just like to predict gloom and doom....


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## Lonely (Aug 11, 2012)

You are not reading properly.

From the 3rd link I posted:



> Legal experts said it was often impossible to tell if a house had been built illegally.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Sorry if this question has been answered before, but has anyone here purchased a property that was backed with an insurance policy guarantee?
I've seen a few with this included but not that many.
It would seem one solution but do you think this is a good or a bad sign when included in the house sale?

I would never use a solicitor provided by an agent. That's like telling a burglar when you're going to be away on holiday!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Muddy said:


> Sorry if this question has been answered before, but has anyone here purchased a property that was backed with an insurance policy guarantee?
> I've seen a few with this included but not that many.
> It would seem one solution but do you think this is a good or a bad sign when included in the house sale?
> 
> I would never use a solicitor provided by an agent. That's like telling a burglar when you're going to be away on holiday!


or, even worse, asking him to keep an eye on it for you.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lonely said:


> You are not reading properly.
> 
> From the 3rd link I posted:


But WHICH legal experts? When the Daily Mail is involved, it is barely one step away from the experts in the Sun, the Mirror or Express. Even the Telegraph article you posted is based on the Mail's one.

They could well be the same legal experts that told the News of the World that hacking people's phones was OK since they'll never know nor who had been involved


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It is impossible to tell. We've still got people who had all license's in place,fully legal, that have now been revoked by the Junta de Andalucia & being told by the banks 'just sell it on there's no problem '. Beggars belief.


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## Goldeneye (Nov 12, 2011)

Lonely said:


> I am no longer thinking to buy in Spain. I will just rent!


Same here, at least for a few years.
We fell in love with a property in the Jalon Valley just outside Lliber, sadly it was illegal, as we discovered on a visit the same applies to many in the valley.


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## Swerve (Jun 29, 2011)

Muddy said:


> Sorry if this question has been answered before, but has anyone here purchased a property that was backed with an insurance policy guarantee?
> I've seen a few with this included but not that many.
> It would seem one solution but do you think this is a good or a bad sign when included in the house sale?
> 
> I would never use a solicitor provided by an agent. That's like telling a burglar when you're going to be away on holiday!


If we didn't already have a house in Spain and I was looking to buy I would be looking at bank repossessions surely if you're buying from a bank everything should I say should be okay


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Swerve said:


> If we didn't already have a house in Spain and I was looking to buy I would be looking at bank repossessions surely if you're buying from a bank everything should I say should be okay



Be careful - that is not always the case.

There have been instances recently where the house being sold was not legal and had many debts against it.


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## TSN.IMM (May 13, 2013)

Swerve said:


> We were taken to a property in competa to view when we were looking at property to buy and we asked who had built it. The reply was oh my husband it's not totally legal but I'm sure €5000 euros would sort that out. And that was from the wife and the estate agent. We couldn't wait to get away from the place and the estate agent.
> 
> I wonder if it's still standing.


Can't believe it. Sounds like in China or Vietnam, not an EU country.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Swerve said:


> If we didn't already have a house in Spain and I was looking to buy I would be looking at bank repossessions surely if you're buying from a bank everything should I say should be okay


It should be a safer bet in theory with a bank repro maybe, but I will treat every house I look at the same, and with what some banks have been up to it's probably wise to be even more careful. No trust, no faith, just business.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Also, remember that with bank repos you don't have any sort of guarantee over the house. We found a place we liked that had been taken from a builder (I didn't want to do a property that had been repoed from a private individual) but when we heard that it was to be sold as is, with NO guarantees (Do the pipes work? Are they still there?!) we bailed out. 

In the end, we bought from a builder for cheaper than we would have bought the repoed place.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

TSN.IMM said:


> Can't believe it. Sounds like in China or Vietnam, not an EU country.


Welcome to Spain. I feel like the culture of the _enchufe_ (pulling strings) and corruption is changing, but I'm not sure it's changing ENOUGH.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> Welcome to Spain. I feel like the culture of the _enchufe_ (pulling strings) and corruption is changing, but I'm not sure it's changing ENOUGH.


Hardly will, bearing in mind the current incumbents of the governmental thrones


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## TSN.IMM (May 13, 2013)

Maybe off-topic a bit, but can the system correct it, i.e. replace the corrupted gov with a less one?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

TSN.IMM said:


> Maybe off-topic a bit, but can the system correct it, i.e. replace the corrupted gov with a less one?


Corruption is/was so entrenched that I doubt it.

I wish I could remember what piece of legislation was being debated yesterday but it was ABSURD. I feel like every day we get closer to a police state. I wish Europe wpuld intervene and tell Rajoy and his cronies "ENOUGH."


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Was it reforming the penal code or the cycling laws?


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

*BBC Breakfast 16th December 2013.*

A fair size 'piece' on the levelling of 'illegal' homes in Almeria. A local town hall mayor is questioned why he granted permission to build, but several years later, numerous properties are under thread of levelling.

If he was in the UK, he would probably be 'levelled' ... scumbag.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Expatliving said:


> A fair size 'piece' on the levelling of 'illegal' homes in Almeria. A local town hall mayor is questioned why he granted permission to build, but several years later, numerous properties are under thread of levelling.
> 
> If he was in the UK, he would probably be 'levelled' ... scumbag.


Yes, on "This morning! BBC News - Demolition threat to expat properties in Spain

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

TSN.IMM said:


> Maybe off-topic a bit, but can the system correct it, i.e. replace the corrupted gov with a less one?


It's not the present government that's to blame. All parties have had, and have at this moment, corruption cases. It's politics itself that is corrupt.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's not the present government that's to blame. All parties have had, and have at this moment, corruption cases. It's politics itself that is corrupt.


Not quite. As in other countries which have experienced totalitarian rule of either Left or Right it's the lack of a solid civil society and the trust that goes with it that is to blame.

Under Franco and the tinpot dictators of socialist states before 1989 there were no politics.
That was the root of the problem.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Deleted (duplicate)


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This is scandalous. These people did all the right things, got the paperwork authorised at the town hall and went ahead with their building projects in good faith. It's only right that they should get compensation.

The current government could and should do two things immediately:

a) Hold a public inquiry into how these ayuntamientos came to grant permission to build illegally, and not just allow ex-mayors to deny all knowledge. There must surely be a paper trail?

b) Pass legislation and/or introduce independent checking procedures to ensure such things never happen again.

Could the fact that Rajoy was himself a property developer/broker (and will be again after he's kicked out of office) have something to do with his reluctance to act?


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## TSN.IMM (May 13, 2013)

I can see Spain is in crisis and it's really messy there, but the question is will the system be able to correct what is wrong now? Nothing is perfect but if the system is designed in the right way, it will be able to correct what is found wrong and it's a matter of election terms to get out of crisis and turn around. But if that system is not in place, it can take generations to correct what is wrong with high potential crash before turning around. I hope Spain is not the later. (Or am I dreaming?)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

TSN.IMM said:


> I can see Spain is in crisis and it's really messy there, but the question is will the system be able to correct what is wrong now? Nothing is perfect but if the system is designed in the right way, it will be able to correct what is found wrong and it's a matter of election terms to get out of crisis and turn around. But if that system is not in place, it can take generations to correct what is wrong with high potential crash before turning around. I hope Spain is not the later. (Or am I dreaming?)


Not sure what you mean by 'system'.
If you mean 'continuing to pursue failed neo-liberal economic policies then no, it will not 'correct' what is wrong now.
If by 'system' you mean democratic government elected by universal suffrage, I'd say the answer would be also No, at least not in the near future.
But the alternatives, dictatorships of the Right or the Left, would be equally un appealing to most people.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

TSN.IMM said:


> I can see Spain is in crisis and it's really messy there, but the question is will the system be able to correct what is wrong now? Nothing is perfect but if the system is designed in the right way, it will be able to correct what is found wrong and it's a matter of election terms to get out of crisis and turn around. But if that system is not in place, it can take generations to correct what is wrong with high potential crash before turning around. I hope Spain is not the later. (Or am I dreaming?)


There are too many deeply entrenched political ideologies, not just in Spain but in many countries throughout the world (including UK, USA, etc.) where backhanders (and political donations) defeat the principles of democracy and pervert the systems.

A classic one was a case where a hospital waiting list was manipulated to be 18+ weeks just to get to see a Consultant and then maybe 6 months to a year later for any operation "But, if you choose to go private, then I can see you next week with the operation a few days later, maybe even the same day" Yes, I know it sounds disgraceful but there is worse - the operation was carried out using NHS equipment and theatre staff who just happened to be available because an operation under the NHS was cancelled (deliberately by the consultant!). Said consultant no longer works for the NHS. The Spanish system where Doctors are salaried instead of receiving all sorts of bonuses and other extras (often meeting unnecessary targets) is a far better system than the NHS.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

playamonte said:


> Oh dear you have done it again, yes I know that you thought it was correct but your action will again cost you dear.
> 
> You must know by now that Spain is by far the first choice for N/Europeans thinking about retiring/getting out of the rat race.
> You have a country that is blessed by pretty good roads/airports & an increasingly better rail system (so I read re-rail)
> ...


I was having a strange (well normal for me) few moments with the above post where I was talking to Spain.
I also ran the same thoughts through my head the other morning when the BBC had a snippet on the morning news about this issue from Spain, even caught the ex-mayor having a stroll who told the reporter that he of course knew nothing about those illegal builds at the edge of town.
Table full of Brits showing their duly stamped/authorised papers from the town hall etc etc.

In the video we saw the nice priors villa before & after, yes looks real nice now that it has been returned to as nature intended, all that lovely weed strewn campo (very idillic)

So many victims of crime, yet the criminals walk free & by and large unmolested ?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

playamonte said:


> I was having a strange (well normal for me) few moments with the above post where I was talking to Spain.
> I also ran the same thoughts through my head the other morning when the BBC had a snippet on the morning news about this issue from Spain, even caught the ex-mayor having a stroll who told the reporter that he of course knew nothing about those illegal builds at the edge of town.
> Table full of Brits showing their duly stamped/authorised papers from the town hall etc etc.
> 
> ...


Or the other Mayor who knew " nothing about those houses, I didn't even know they were there " . Even though his brother built them.
Or the Mayor in court when asked how he could not notice 2600 houses on the edge of the town replied" " I very rarely drive out in that direction " :lol: 
I couldn't agree with you more.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

playamonte said:


> I was having a strange (well normal for me) few moments with the above post where I was talking to Spain.
> I also ran the same thoughts through my head the other morning when the BBC had a snippet on the morning news about this issue from Spain, even caught the ex-mayor having a stroll who told the reporter that he of course knew nothing about those illegal builds at the edge of town.
> Table full of Brits showing their duly stamped/authorised papers from the town hall etc etc.
> 
> ...


Ah but at least in the UK we know where to find the worst of them - in the Palace of Westminster !!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Or the Mayor in court when asked how he could not notice 2600 houses on the edge of the town replied" " I very rarely drive out in that direction " :lol:
> I couldn't agree with you more.


Good grief. It's pathetic, isn't it?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Good grief. It's pathetic, isn't it?


There are litanies of them. If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable.
In reality someone should compile a list of the best 'excuse's' !


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## TSN.IMM (May 13, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Not sure what you mean by 'system'.
> If you mean 'continuing to pursue failed neo-liberal economic policies then no, it will not 'correct' what is wrong now.
> If by 'system' you mean democratic government elected by universal suffrage, I'd say the answer would be also No, at least not in the near future.
> But the alternatives, dictatorships of the Right or the Left, would be equally un appealing to most people.


Sounds like "No way out for Spain" to me. Is it really that bad?
I think a democratic politic system will be able to fix it. Yes, it take time, but at least the future is foreseeable. With dictator system, you can fix problem quickly but future is not foreseeable.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

TSN.IMM said:


> Sounds like "No way out for Spain" to me. Is it really that bad?
> I think a democratic politic system will be able to fix it. Yes, it take time, but at least the future is foreseeable. With dictator system, you can fix problem quickly but future is not foreseeable.


No its not as bad as the press make out & the facts are that the vast bulk have no issue to be concerned about.
There are though some cases (the Priors) where Spain simply shoots itself in the foot much to our frustration & even more so to those involved, still things are changing and the buying process is much safer nowadays as forums like this have shedloads of info and of course a good many Spanish nationals to assist/give info.

I think, can feel almost, that we Europeans have just about had enough of the shysters that have for so long been in positions of power, though small in number have had such a negative impact on so many people.

IMO although Spain can at times be frustrating (comical even) it beats the rest by a country mile .......... hence we live here.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Welcome to Spain. I feel like the culture of the _enchufe_ (pulling strings) and corruption is changing, but I'm not sure it's changing ENOUGH.


Hmmm.
Perhaps it is in some areas of society, but with all this unemployment you can bet that people in a position of power are looking after familiy and friends first. And, if the person can do a good job, why not??


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> You need to look at the facts not the media's version. For a start take a look at who sold those homes, who were the agents that made loads of false promises? the chances are that you will find, in many, if not all, cases they were Brits. What do dodgy time-share salesmen do when stopped from selling dodgy time-shares - they sell dodgy property or set themselves up as property developers and invite the dubious local mayor to grant dodgy licences for a share of the illegal profits. When the Regional government says the properties are illegal, it is not their fault. The dodgy Brit developers who started the scam have all disappeared with their share of the profits leaving the local mayor to take the blame.
> 
> Surely, you say, the lawyers should have sussed all this out before getting the buyers to sign on the dotted line but where did the buyer get the lawyer? Chances are it was the helpful person suggested by the agent and was also getting a share of the profits or at least a boost to the business.


What you say is no doubt true, but there are also cases of people who did go through all the right steps (see the BBC video), with all the right people, and even then have been told that their property is illegal. It really isn't their fault.
Also, I've never understood the idea of buying an unbuilt property, but I do know several Spanish people who have done it round here which is not an expat area at all and most, although not all have been ok. It's not something just aimed at the expat market, although in the south they will make up the bulk of the buyers probably.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

> the buying process is much safer nowadays as forums like this have shedloads of info


But we still get them using the estate agent's lawyer so the fact that we give them the info they need doesn't mean that they take any notice.

When looking for a place for the in-laws in Florida, we went to some people who were offering "off-plan" and my f-i-l (an architect and builder himself) though I was mad when I said I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole "people always buy off-plan" to which I replied "that's fine if there is a show-house or there are some places already built so that you can see what the work is like but if all there is a a couple of photos of some properties they claim to have built at the other end of the USA then I'm not that gullible"

So many people seem to go all glassy-eyed and their brains go into neutral at the thought of the romantic notion of buying a "villa with a pool" in the sun and so cheap by comparison with buying a dingy two up two down in UK that they throw all caution to the wind,


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## TSN.IMM (May 13, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> But we still get them using the estate agent's lawyer so the fact that we give them the info they need doesn't mean that they take any notice.
> 
> When looking for a place for the in-laws in Florida, we went to some people who were offering "off-plan" and my f-i-l (an architect and builder himself) though I was mad when I said I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole "people always buy off-plan" to which I replied "that's fine if there is a show-house or there are some places already built so that you can see what the work is like but if all there is a a couple of photos of some properties they claim to have built at the other end of the USA then I'm not that gullible"
> 
> So many people seem to go all glassy-eyed and their brains go into neutral at the thought of the romantic notion of buying a "villa with a pool" in the sun and so cheap by comparison with buying a dingy two up two down in UK that they throw all caution to the wind,


I don't think you can expect to make every single case right. Information and advises are provided and the forum is operating in its own functions. I'd be more than happy if the politic system can play it functions.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

TSN.IMM said:


> I don't think you can expect to make every single case right. Information and advises are provided and the forum is operating in its own functions. I'd be more than happy if the politic system can play it functions.


It happened lke this, more or less:

Spain joined the EU. The Single European Act allowed for free movement of people, goods and *capital* within the EU. Billions of euros flowed into countries such as Greece and Spain, mainly but not exclusively from German banks. . Most of it went to provide cheap loan capital to developers and private buyers. The government at that time played no part in this - how could they? The EU had set the rules. The fact is that government borrowing was well within affordable limits until the construction bubble burst and the government found itself having topay paro to millions of unemployed people.
This supply of cheap money led to the construction boom and the large number of domestic and foreign buyers purchasing property in Spain. The laws of supply and demand, linked to the international financial crisis, turned boom into bust.
Many people 'bought' properties they could not afford. Some were so eager to acquire their 'dream' home in the sun that they failed to observe due diligence. Others did the right things - or thought they did - but were cheated.
It's sad for foreign buyers who have lost money for whatever reason. But sadder still for the mass of Spanish people since not only did many of them take part in this property bonanza -and why not? Very hard not to join in with what everyone says makes sound financial sense, i.e. the purchase of your own home - and are now suffering what with unemployment at horrendous levels and repossessions a daily occurrence.
There is also the fact that there are two lost generations, the generation that scorned education for lucrative un or semi-skilled work in the construction industry and now find themselves part of a vast pool of unskilled labour and the current generation of young people, over 50% of whom are without jobs, training or further education.
Yes, I'm sorry for anyone whatever their nationality who has experienced problems of one kind or another due to buying property in Spain. But set their plight against the bigger picture.


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