# Can anyone help me with my Padron problem please



## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

Hi All,

when we got our Resident Cards a couple of weeks back, we went the next day to the Padron Office to register on the Padron to enable us to register for healthcare with our S1 forms.

We were refused as the A4 sheet (which appears locally produced) that they require you to fill in at Torre Pacheco requires the Tax Information of our Landlord. I am lead to believe they want the equivalent of the Council Tax information from him. This Council Tax equivalent is paid by the Landlord as part of our Rental Agreement.

As we rent through an agency, we have requested this from them.

A couple of weeks have now passed and we still have no useful reply. This leaves us without any health cover, even though the UK government are paying the Spanish Government for it from the date of issue of our S1 forms in January 2013!

The latest on trying to get the Tax Info from the Landlord is that he doesn't know what we are asking him for, and he has never seen his deeds as they are held by his accountant.

An e-mail has been sent to his accountant, as that is the only contact our Letting Agent has, without reply yet.

The Letting Agency have contacted the Empadronmiento Office with the property company's details and the owner's details but they say they have no record of either, and will not put us on the Padron until we return the completed form with Tax Details!

My issue is: Why are we being denied being on the Padron (a simple register of residents) and therefore access to healthcare that is already being paid for, when the issue is with the property owner who is a foreign investor that we have no contact with?

Is there any way to solve this matter that any of you kind people know about.

Any help would be appreciated, as we are in a precarious position right now having no healthcare from the UK or Spain until it is sorted out.

Regards
EB


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

You have to understand that being on the padron is more than merely a 'list of residents'. They use these figures to obtain money from central government. Because of this, the have to be sure that any one registered on the padron IS actually living in that area.

Normally, what the town hall accept is a rental agreement showing the landlords NIE/DNI or NIF.

In the past, as a landlord, we have been asked to not only provide a copy of the contract but also a covering letter. We were happy to do that and they were duly accepted by the town hall.


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

snikpoh,

I have given them the rental agreement with the landlords NIE. As well as our bills with this address on, our bank book and statements with this address, our residency cards with this address too. They want the Tax Information of the Property Owner or they will not register us. I am surprised as the info we gave them proves we live here and I am aware that they get funds for our living here once they add us.

Thanks for replying.

Regards
EB


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ericban said:


> snikpoh,
> 
> I have given them the rental agreement with the landlords NIE. As well as our bills with this address on, our bank book and statements with this address, our residency cards with this address too. They want the Tax Information of the Property Owner or they will not register us. I am surprised as the info we gave them proves we live here and I am aware that they get funds for our living here once they add us.
> 
> ...


maybe the property isn't registered &/or maybe the owner isn't paying the IBI or other kind of tax on the property & this is one way for them to crack down on him - someone local to me had the exact problem recently - the property itself didn't 'legally exist!

I'll ask her how/if she got round it - I think she must have because she has her children in school & they wanted the padrón


regardless though - the law is that they are supposed to accept your passport & rental agreement - they aren't supposed to demand anything else


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

xabiachica,

If you could find out how they got round it, that would be great.

The property is on the Polaris World, La Torre Golf Resort so I think they know it exists.

I also told them that I had everything that the FCO website told me to bring to register, but her answer was that I needed to fill in the whole form for them to register us.

I get the feeling the Landlord may possibly be trying to avoid paying the tax in question. How could I find out as the occupant? I feel like saying to her: What on earth has that got to do with me and why am I being denied healthcare that is already being funded because of it? But, of course I won't as I just want to get this sorted out. 

EB


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ericban said:


> snikpoh,
> 
> I have given them the rental agreement with the landlords NIE. As well as our bills with this address on, our bank book and statements with this address, our residency cards with this address too. They want the Tax Information of the Property Owner or they will not register us. I am surprised as the info we gave them proves we live here and I am aware that they get funds for our living here once they add us.
> 
> ...


Are they, by chance, not Spanish?

For a foreigner, the NIE is their tax number - there is NOTHING else.

If they are Spanish, then they won't have an NIE but their tax number can be established from their DNI.


I suspect that what Xabiachica says may well be the case. If they are a Brit and using an agency, then there could be lots of outstanding issues - the most likely one is that they were not resident and so owe lot's of tax!

However, this is NOT our problem so they should still sign you on to the padron. Have you tried using a gestor?


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

I believe the Landlords are a couple or more of Irish Nationals with a portfolio of several properties on this resort. One of their NIE numbers is on the rental agreement, as well as the company name and address. (As they have several properties that I why I thought they must not be avoiding paying it. However, I am becoming more suspicious at time goes on).

I understand that the tax info they are looking for (from the Spanish secretary of the letting agents) is the information of who precisely is paying the Council Tax equivalent.

The secretary has rung the Padron Office for me and asked why they can't just look up the info themselves. The reply is that nothing is showing up for searches of the Company name or NIE number supplied, and that the form needs to be filled in completely by us as a matter of policy for us to then be registered.

I have not tried using a Gestor, as I don't feel I should be paying out to someone to sort out something so apparently simple. Maybe I am being naive. 

I will wait a few more days to see if the Landlord's accountant supplies the info. Then, unless someone on here has solved this, I will contact the British Embassy in Alicante and see if they can help.

After all, we are being penalised for something out of our control.

Thanks

Regards
EB


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ericban said:


> I believe the Landlords are a couple or more of Irish Nationals with a portfolio of several properties on this resort. One of their NIE numbers is on the rental agreement, as well as the company name and address. (As they have several properties that I why I thought they must not be avoiding paying it. However, I am becoming more suspicious at time goes on).
> 
> I understand that the tax info they are looking for (from the Spanish secretary of the letting agents) is the information of who precisely is paying the Council Tax equivalent.
> 
> ...


it could be a fake NIE number, fake company - certainly sounds as if they haven't paid any taxes

you're right though, it isn't your fault - but tbh in your shoes I'd be looking at moving on..........


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Ask for & fill-in the 'hojas de Reclamación' ( complaint forms) . they can be filled in , in any language. One copy for them & 2 for you : Take yours to the consumer office, OMIC, & they'll get on to it. 
It is nothing to do with you & up to them to sort out who owns what, whether they are paying tax, IBI, etc.


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks gus-lopez,

I will wait a few more days then give that a try, it has been mentioned before to me that going down that road might get me some joy.

Regards
EB


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## jhbtorre (May 8, 2013)

hi ericban

I live on La Torre golf as well. Moved here 3 months ago. Had the exact same problem that you were having. There are no work arounds im afraid. Torre Pacheco town council are adament about that document and will not sign you on to the padron unless you have it. We have lived in Las Palmas, Corvera and now here. I have dealt with 4 ayuntamientos signing on to the padron and each ayuntamiento had different requirements. Las Palmas was the easiest and Torre Pacheco is the worst.
We too went back and forth trying to obtain the owners tax certificate to no avail. We kept putting pressure on the agent(judging from youre story i am sure we have the same agent.) Eventually we managed to get the referencia catastral for the property. We took that number with the other documents you mentioned to the Torre Pacheco town council.
TIP- Avoid the older guy in the middle, he is totally unhelpful and a stickler for the rules. Try and get the lady on the left. We told her our situation the we needed to get on the padron as we were trying to get our kids into school. She phoned some other department and they faxed over the certificate. She signed us on , we payed the fees and then two weeks later went to collect the certificates. She was very helpful and could see how frustrated we were with the whole situation. Also we all speak spanish so that wasnt an issue.
Hope this helps, let me know if you need something else...


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

Jhbtorre,

Thanks for the reply. I will try to get the document you referred to. It is becoming a right pain now, as the owner's solicitor is also being no help at all.

We will have to stick with it, as we cannot register for healthcare without being on the padron.
/SNIP/

Regards
EB


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

*Success at last*

We have gathered as much information as our agent has been able to procure from the Landlord and today decided to give it a go again.

The secretary at our agents managed to find an English speaking employee at Torre Pacheco office who agreed to help us if we looked him up when we arrived.

Although the paperwork that we procured was not what they wanted. What was asked for apparently was a copy of the receipt for the owner's payment of IBI tax!! He was able to help us by taking us to the cadestral office (I think) and looking for the paperwork in question.

To cut a long story short the owner owes thousands in back IBI payments to 2008 and our helper thought it would be unlikely that they would sign us onto the Padron with the account in such arrears.

The English speaking staff member took the details of the owner from the paperwork that I had, and said that they would be pursuing the owner doggedly for payment. Obviously this is why these new measures have been added to the Padron application process.

I had a lengthy discussion explaining that my family's healthcare was already being paid by UK government we have had an S1 each since January, and I was being denied access to it by not being on the Padron. I told him that I would be complaining to the FCO if I could not get access to treatment if I needed it.

He agreed to speak to the Empadronmiento on my behalf and explain.

He then pointed me back to the office and said to give it ago.

The rest of the process went smoothly (although it took over an hour) and we are to pick up our family certificate next Monday.

Thank the lord for our English Speaking helper. Without him it would have been impossible to have got our Padrons done today.

Now, what the hell was that next step again? INSS registration for healthcare I believe?

Regards
EB


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ericban said:


> We have gathered as much information as our agent has been able to procure from the Landlord and today decided to give it a go again.
> 
> The secretary at our agents managed to find an English speaking employee at Torre Pacheco office who agreed to help us if we looked him up when we arrived.
> 
> ...


so glad you got it sorted!!

yes, that's exactly the problem I thought it was 

they had no right to refuse to let you register on the padrón though, & I suspect they knew that all along

yes - the INSS is the next step - though strictly speaking the UK isn't actually paying anything for your healthcare yet - not until the S1s are registered at the INSS - but I doubt you saying that hurt one little bit


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> so glad you got it sorted!!
> 
> yes, that's exactly the problem I thought it was
> 
> ...


Hi xabiachica,

Do you know how I can find my nearest Inss office to Roldan, and what I have to take along additional to S1 forms? I am having very little joy searching for this online and do not want to let my effort slip as we have got this far. My neighbour seems to think it is in Cartagena but it is a long way to go if it is not, or we have to return for more paperwork. We are in Roldan near Torre Pacheco.

Regards
EB


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ericban said:


> Hi xabiachica,
> 
> Do you know how I can find my nearest Inss office to Roldan, and what I have to take along additional to S1 forms? I am having very little joy searching for this online and do not want to let my effort slip as we have got this far. My neighbour seems to think it is in Cartagena but it is a long way to go if it is not, or we have to return for more paperwork. We are in Roldan near Torre Pacheco.
> 
> ...


Try this and then drill down to where you are;

INSS


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Try this and then drill down to where you are;
> 
> INSS


Thanks,

It appears to be Cartagena as my nearest office. Any ideas on what else I should take?

As we are registering Myself, Wife and Daughter I am going to take:

Birth and marriage certificates for each of us
Padron issued yesterday
3 x S1 certs and the covering letter
3 x residentia certs
3 x copies of passports
rental agreement
electricity bill
passport photos for each person

I am sure I will not need most of this, but if I take it I can bring it back if unused.

Also, do we all have to be there? Or can I go without dragging everyone else along?

TIA
EB


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ericban said:


> Thanks,
> 
> It appears to be Cartagena as my nearest office. Any ideas on what else I should take?
> 
> ...


that should do it - & at least one photocopy of everything!! 

I doubt you'll need the electricity bill or photos - but better safe than sorry.......

you shouldn't all have to be there - my gestor did mine & I didn't go with him


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Hi Ericban,

The very best of luck with your application. You are taking everything that you need & more.

We both attended the original appointment - but my OH returned after 6 weeks, on his own, & picked up, 'the letters'.

Please let us know what transpires. it is interesting to hear how each regional INSS conducts itself !!

I have now received my health card - 8 weeks after our initial INSS appointment......no sign of my husband's, though - but we are both signed on the system.

As detailed in my previous posts, we were unaware that we could register at the Health centre with our stamped SI. The INSS having told us that we required the decision letter from Malaga.

Bear that in mind, if you are likewise fobbed off !


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks both of you for the replies. Not sure when we are going yet, but it should be this week. I will post the result of our trip on the board.

I think I will also go to a health centre straight away and see if we can get a GP without waiting for the reply.

Thanks
EB


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## mazlester (Oct 30, 2010)

ericban said:


> Hi xabiachica,
> 
> Do you know how I can find my nearest Inss office to Roldan, and what I have to take along additional to S1 forms? I am having very little joy searching for this online and do not want to let my effort slip as we have got this far. My neighbour seems to think it is in Cartagena but it is a long way to go if it is not, or we have to return for more paperwork. We are in Roldan near Torre Pacheco.
> 
> ...


I only had to go to the Health Centre and there I handed in my contract, padron and residenca. I received my SIP card a few weeks later. My husband on the other hand had to go into Murcia to the Social Security office as he was applying for a dependant's SIP. He got his a few weeks later! So it's probably Murcia for you as well! 

Maz


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## ericban (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok thanks Maz,

I will look into that. I have been told to ask the Roldan or Balsicas health centres where their clients need to register and apparently they will tell me which one to go to.

Regards


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

HI ericban,

We asked our neighbours which clinic they used.

It was quite frightening being without healthcare - I hope my posts will help you & any others.....

Regards

Allie


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## campogirl (Jul 8, 2013)

*obtaining padron*



ericban said:


> Hi All,
> 
> when we got our Resident Cards a couple of weeks back, we went the next day to the Padron Office to register on the Padron to enable us to register for healthcare with our S1 forms.
> 
> ...


My husband and I have been having a problem as well. Our mayor refused a Padron on grounds we were not living in the village though we do live in the municipality area. Fortunately ours is now sorted. We were able to apply by using the address of someone who owns a house in the village and needed no other documentation other than the house owners signature. 

It appears all councils have a different system but if you are renting and the council tax is not included you do not need to declare it. Your agent will be able to verify the total amount you need to pay. Only your rent and any other debts need to be declared. Your S1 will show your income, so I cannot see what the problem is. Do you speak Spanish or can you take a translator with you to find out why they need this information.

We too were getting desperate as my husband has arthritis and needed a doctors appointment urgently. 

We contacted the EU immigration help line, the answerwhich is below. I do not know if anything below will be of help. If not you can contact the EU immigration help line on europa.eu and send them your specific quest

Here is the answer we got from them: (Please also read below this answer)

2. Spanish law: Ley 7/85 and the Padrón Municipal 

You indicate that the house you live in is not considered to be part of the municipal jurisdiction by the local Mayor. 

Please note that the Padrón Municipal (the Census) is the instrument by which the Spanish state is able to determine how many people live in Spain. Accordingly, it is the obligation of everyone in Spain to register on the census, irrespective of nationality. 

The sole governing condition ruling registration on the census is “habitual residence”. It appears that you satisfy this condition inasmuch as you live in your house in Spain for more than half the year (e.g 183 days); note the latter criteria is derived from taxation law but is equally applicable in the case at hand. 

As to whether your house is within the municipal jurisdiction or not is a question of fact; Accordingly, the mayor’s opinion on the matter is irrelevant. 

Which is why Spanish law considers registration on the census as both an obligation and a right Ley 7/1985, de 2 de abril, Reguladora de las Bases del Régimen Local (Article 15). 

The local administration is under a legal duty of care to maintain the absolute accuracy of the Padron Municipal vis a vis the central government, as a key document which enables the central government to know how many people live in Spain (article 17 Law 7/1985). 

Given that you have been refused registration on the Padron Municipal, this is an administrative act which is amenable to Judicial review, in accordance with Spanish administrative law (Ley 30/1992, de 26 de noviembre, de Régimen Jurídico de las Administraciones Públicas y del Procedimiento Administrativo Común). 

You have various possible remedies: 

Recurso potestativo 
Recurso contencioso administrativo; Note that both remedies are conducted under Spanish law for which Your Europe Advice is not able to provide advice (for more information, you are urged to contact the bodies listed below). 

Note in this regard the very important constitutional nature of the census, given that registration on the census triggers a number of very important legal precepts: 

Residence in Spain 

Political suffrage in Spain 

The Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) vests the following political rights, by virtue of Article 22 of the TFEU: 

Every citizen of the Union residing in a Member State of which he is not a national shall have the right to vote and to stand as a candidate at municipal elections in the Member State in which he resides, under the same conditions as nationals of that State. 

Every citizen of the Union residing in a Member State of which he is not a national shall have the right to vote and to stand as a candidate in elections to the European Parliament in the Member State in which he resides, under the same conditions as nationals of that State. 

Accordingly, given you are both an EU citizen and a resident in Spain, registration on the Spanish census opens the way for you to be able to vote in the Spanish Municipal elections. 

This may explain why the mayor is not predisposed to register you or any EU citizens on the electoral roll, as this may threaten his electoral base. 

The Spanish Red Cross also provides free legal clinics with Lawyers who will advise you about the steps to take. 

In the unlikely event the Health Authority should continue denying you access to free health care, you are invited to submit a complaint to Solvit on your behalf: 

I hope this consultation will serve to assist you in your steps to secure free access to healthcare for yourself as well as rights to political suffrage in Spain and thank you again for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice. 


We also contacted the Spanish Red Cross Immigration (on [email protected]), and received the following answer:

Dear Sir,

You have the right to be "empadronado", since it is not a legal requisite of that to be living in a town or village.It is possible even if you live in a hut or a tent, since every Municipality in Spain is obliged to register all the citizens living in their demarcation. I advise you to insist on your right (preferably in a written form). If they insist, you could appeal against than decission (recurso de reposición).

In case they keep on refusing you that right, I advise you to seek legal advise. In Servicios Sociales in the Municipality, they can inform you who can be providing free legal advise in your province.

I whish you good luck.

Regards.

El 16 de abril de 2013 13:54, Fundación Migrar <[email protected]> escribió:


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