# Just starting out: what do I need to do in Portugal to settle legally and happily?



## ExpatNick

Hello everyone.

There's probably a lot of info already posted on the Forum, but it seems spread out into numerous threads (unless I've missed an entire thread dealing with this whole subject). 

My wife and I (UK nationals, one retired, one still considering work ventures - probably not in Portugal though) are looking to move to Portugal to take advantage of the NHR tax breaks. We're seasoned expats (many years in the far east, as well as western Europe) so are happy with our out-of-Portugal preparing-to-move activities. 

However, we'll need assistance in making sure we don't overlook anything actually in Portugal, regulatory-wise and sensible-wise. As far as acquiring a FIN goes, I think we're OK with that as KathrynJ and Travelling-man have put us straight, but what about the NHR registration? Can we apply at the same time as the FIN? How long does it take to acquire? What else do we need to do to make ourselves legal with regard to residency and buying a property?

How easy is it to open a bank account? Do I need a PT address? I'm sure that I need a FIN. Can anyone suggest a decent bank? (I would prefer a bank with links to HSBC as I have a long [far east and UK] history with them, as well as long-standing accounts already).

Can anyone suggest an English-speaking lawyer (anywhere, not just on the Algarve, although this may well be our target area to settle, but we'll also look at the Silver Coast and other areas too) who could help with NHR and property buying?

We'll be on the Algarve for a week from this Sunday evening (01-Nov-2015; based in Albufeira, but with hire car) so intend to apply for our FIN then, as well as touch base with whoever we need to to begin the process.

All info - links too! - greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance.


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## dstump

*Settle legally and happily*

Hi ExpatNick,

Welcome to the forum. We have been here in the Silver Coast for all of five months so should be able to give some up to date guidance on some of your questions. 

You mention FIN, I think you mean NIF (Número de Indentificação Fiscal). Basically it a MUST HAVE for everything, so make it your top priority. We picked up our NIF from the local Finances office when we were on one of our fact finding visits, like you we were non-residents at the time. We handed over our passports and driving license with our UK address on, 15 minutes later we both had our NIF. I think there is 'supposed' to be a 3 or 7 euro fee, but the nice lady in the Finance didn't charge us anything. As Travelling Man mentioned, things can vary greatly around Portugal.

One tip if you are going to a busy Finances office, I would arrive there around one hour to 90 minutes before closing time, (rather than join the looooong queue when they open) our one closed at 16:00, and if you are in the office they will not kick you out when they close the doors. They systematically deal with those in the waiting area at the time, oh, don't forget to take a ticket from the machine when you arrive. We went at 9 o'clock when they opened and the queue was out the door. We went back at 15:00 and we were numbers two and three in a queue of five people, result! 

Bank account, sorry to say you have no chance with HSBC, they are not in Portugal nor do they have an affiliate bank. We were with HABC in Dubai and tried, no luck. We opened a non-residents bank account with Millennium, the lady in the branch spoke perfect English and if I remember correctly, we took passport, our recently acquired NIF, driving license and 100 euros, 45 minutes later we had a bank account and debit card. We are very happy with Millennium and they have a really good English web site, and their staff at the branches and on the phone all speak perfect English. I can't comment on the other banks, although I'm sure they are all have their own merits.

You do not mention if you are moving from the UK or a non EU country. If the latter and you are shipping your furniture and household goods with you, let me know and I'll give you some guidance on the matter. 

As for a lawyer, we are in the Silver Coast and 'if' you decide to move to the area I can provide you with the name of our lawyer, he has been worth his weight in gold, for us. But he is local so I don't think he would be appropriate if you plump for the Algarve. 

Last but not least NHR, you need two things to qualify: 1. be a resident of Portugal, 2. prove you have not paid any Portuguese tax in the previous five years. So, since you will be a non-resident on Sunday you can't start the NHR process until you register as a resident. How long does it take to process the application? We submitted our application in July and we are still waiting, could take up to six months, although I know some people who got their application approved in two months.

As for further reference and info, AngloInfo Portugal does have a handy check list for people planning to move, which is a useful aide memoir. 

Hope all of this helps and makes sense. Let me know if you need more clarity on some items.


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## travelling-man

dstump has it right and I'll add it's not worth contacting a lawyer until you've settled on an area at least and maybe not until ready to buy........ and DON'T use one recommended by the seller or the agent under any circumstances.

Banks: Another vote for Millennium from me. 

If you're coming from a non EU country, you need a (signed & stamped) certificate of baggage from the local PT High Commission/embassy before you leave.


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## ExpatNick

*Thank you dstump and Travelling-man*

Thanks to both of you, and especially to dstump for the detailed info about NIFs. 

Sorry about the FIN / NIF mistake - I was in Singapore for six years and their identification of non-nationals is by a Foreign Identification Number. I guess it's stuck with me!

Once I do have a NIF, what are the legal obligations required to maintain it? Do I have to make an annual tax return or similar? Do I have to record the days I spend in PT?

And thanks again to both of you with regard to banks. I've briefly looked at the Millenium website. Do you happen to know if they charge a monthly fee for all accounts? There's no point me opening an account and not using it for several months if it'll cost me.

Thanks again - and to anyone else who wants to contribute.


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## ExpatNick

*Your comments on pT residency*

dstump, you wrote "_Last but not least NHR, you need two things to qualify: 1. be a resident of Portugal, 2. prove you have not paid any Portuguese tax in the previous five years_."


Just re-read dstump's post again, and have a couple more queries:

- aside from actually moving there, how do we become PT residents? How do we prove we're resident? 

- I'm assuming that having a new NIF will be adequate evidence that we have had no PT tax activities in the previous five years?

Thanks!!


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## TonyJ1

ExpatNick said:


> Thanks to both of you, and especially to dstump for the detailed info about NIFs.
> 
> Sorry about the FIN / NIF mistake - I was in Singapore for six years and their identification of non-nationals is by a Foreign Identification Number. I guess it's stuck with me!
> 
> Once I do have a NIF, what are the legal obligations required to maintain it? Do I have to make an annual tax return or similar? Do I have to record the days I spend in PT?


The Portuguese tax number is for life and there is no distinction between a resident's tax number or a non resident. The obligation whether to submit a tax return depends on whether you are resident and whether your income is above a certain limit (off hand I cannot remember the exact amount - around €3000 per annum). In certain cases, non residents have the option of submitting tax returns as well.

The problem, is that it is an obligation to inform the tax office of changes of address - most expatriates, emigrants, do not notify the tax authorities of the new addresses - therefore, at least theoretically, they still have obligations in submitting tax returns (this is common to most systems that I am aware of).

Once you are considered a resident or spend more than 183 days in Portugal), you are subject to submit an annual tax return if the above condition applies. The 183 day rule used to be restricted to a calender year but has been altered for this tax year, the rule is now 183 days in a 12 month period, whether piecemeal or continuous.

In terms of recording the number of days - if you keep notifying the tax authorities every time you change your address, than they will automatically have a record, but in theory, if your habitual home is in Portugal, even for 1 day, you should render a tax return (this is in the income tax act).


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## dstump

*Settle legally and happily*

Hi ExpatNick, 

You are welcome. Answers, NIF: if you get your NIF next week you will be a non-resident and to my knowledge your NIF, like your British NI number stays with you for life. When you register as a resident you merely pop into the Finances with you residency certificate and they will change your status from non-resident to resident, your NIF remains the same. No need to submit any tax returns if you are non-resident and do not have income from any PT assets or investments.

Bank account: as they say “there is no such thing as a free lunch”, so you will get bank charges for them to look after you hard earned readies, although you will need to check the various types of accounts on offer and see which is the best for you. 

However, FYI Millennium do have a subsidiary Internet only bank called ‘Activobank’, which makes no charges. It is similar to HSBC’s ‘First Direct’ in the UK. This might suit your needs if you do all of your banking over the InterWeb and just take cash out of the MultiBanco (ATM). The added advantage of Activobank is you can pop into any Millennium branch and they will help you with any issues or if you need to cash a cheque for larger amounts, best of both worlds. Take a look at their web site.

You questions on residency: as an EU citizen you can stay in PT for three months without the need to register. If you plan to stay more than three months you need to apply for residency, you have 30 days from the end of your third month of arrival to apply (see my question about coming from a non-EU country, as this might impact your timings). If you do plan to make PT you permanent Shangri-La you will effectively be committing to living in PT for more than 183 days per year, hence be liable for PT tax and need to submit annual tax returns. 

You apply for the residency at the local Camara (council offices). The process of proving residency is relatively simple and is explained in the AngloInfo web site ‘aide memoir’, plus there are many column inches and posts on this forum. If you still have queries after reading through them let me know. 

BTW, you did not mention if you are coming from the UK/EU country or non EU country, this ‘could’ have some implications to timings of getting residency, especially if you are shipping your household goods.

Lastly, I believe the NIF will convince the PT tax man you have not paid into the PT Treasury in the previous five years. 

Hope this helps.


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## TonyJ1

ExpatNick said:


> dstump, you wrote "_Last but not least NHR, you need two things to qualify: 1. be a resident of Portugal, 2. prove you have not paid any Portuguese tax in the previous five years_."
> 
> 
> Just re-read dstump's post again, and have a couple more queries:
> 
> - aside from actually moving there, how do we become PT residents? How do we prove we're resident?
> 
> - I'm assuming that having a new NIF will be adequate evidence that we have had no PT tax activities in the previous five years?
> 
> Thanks!!


If you have not had a previous Portuguese tax number, you should have no trouble in obtaining the NHR status.

In terms of residence, do not confuse legal residence and tax residence - they are 2 different concepts. As to tax residence, I have described in a previous post on this thread.

Legal residence, if you are an EU citizen, the formality is fairly simple - have a physical address (lease agreement / purchase contract / title deeds) and register at the local town hall. Sometimes officials may ask for additional paperwork, but they are over extending the requirements. In respect of non EU citizens, it is more complicated, but the SEF website provides comprehensive details on different alternatives / requirements in terms of the law.


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## ExpatNick

Thank you to TonyJ1 and dstump (again).

We'd be coming to PT from the UK, as will our belongings (already cleared in the UK from Asia on our last relocation), so (fingers crossed) no complications there.

I understand now about the distinction between tax residence and physical residence - doesn't seem too difficult (in our expected circumstances).

I've spent the last 90 minutes reading through AngloInfo's PT pages. Having moved country 6 or 7 times over the last 25+ years, none of it is daunting. I'm just determined to not overlook anything about entering Portugal and becoming a legal resident (my wife too).

dstump, you wrote about "...committing to living in PT for more than 183 days per year...". I know you're new yourself to PT, but I'm not quite ready to hang up my working boots yet and it's quite possible I'll be in line for positions outside PT. Do you happen to know what happens to my Portuguese residency (legal and taxation) if I accept an overseas assignment for a year or more? Also, we love travelling and could easily be outside PT for half the year (ignoring any work possibilities) - any idea if this would affect residency?

Finally, would anyone be able to give an indication of what percentage they paid for their IMT if they've made a recent property purchase?

As always, many thanks in advance.


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## ExpatNick

Forgot to include in the above post: 

does anyone have any idea what the cost of a Portuguese lawyer would be when buying a property (ball park figure only, of course)?


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## travelling-man

You're talking a few hundred rather than thousands. - If you worked your sums on something like €500 you shouldn't be too far out.


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## dstump

Hi ExpatNick,

I'm afraid your entering tax expert advice territory here, so TonyJ1 might be able give pointers on the 'enigma within a conundrum' known as the tax system. 

Unlike you I am someone who couldn't wait to hang up his corporate hat and coat and leave the rat race behind.


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## D&M

We are UK citizens moving to Portugal from Australia. Hope to be in Portugal in January 2016 looking for accommodation. Our goods would be shipped to arrive in February. In the meantime we have to get an address and proof of it so that we can supply it to the clearing agent. Is a 6 month rental easy to obtain in just a couple of weeks? We would be grateful to hear about the household goods shipping/residency situation as we will be packing and shipping quite soon. We know we have to have a baggage certificate but is there anything else?


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## travelling-man

That'll all depend on what area and to a lesser degree, what price you want to pay but certainly not impossible & for what it's worth, central/northern zones will probably be easier/less expensive than the coastal areas.


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## siobhanwf

I think you have just found out that HSBC is not the world friendly bank they advertise. We have banked with HSBC hong Kong for many years. Until recently it wasn't even possible to use your ATM card in Portugal as it is linked to Union Pay


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## ExpatNick

*Bringing money into PT from both withinn and outside the EU.*

I have another query - a very important one!

When the time comes to buy our property, we'll need cash in PT. Having been expats for many years, and having been in several countries, our liquid cash is all over the world; some is in the UK, most is outside the EU.

So the questions is: what should I be aware of when I (make my plans to) bring my funds into PT?

Thanks in advance!!


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## travelling-man

We were in a similar position when we came to PT. 

Getting the money out of the originating country/countries is usually a lot more difficult than getting it into Europe but the thing you need to be most careful of is the exchange rate. 

For what it's worth, we moved ours into a UK/offshore UKP account and kept it there until we needed to change it to Euros for the house purchase and it worked very well for us.


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## Juca

NHR Status - you need to apply for this. It is not given automatically. Please please please do not attempt to apply for the status without using a lawyer. 

Property buying - I tell clients to count on adding 10% to the value of buying. This covers stamp duty, exchange tax, lawyer and notary fees. Usually the fees are less (around 8%) but prefer for clients to be happily surprised as opposed to annoyed.


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## ExpatNick

Thanks everyone - again! - your answers are very welcome.

To elaborate a little on my query concerning transferring funds to PT, what I'm concerned about is the possibility of the monies being subject to the tax authorities' scrutiny and therefore subject to tax (as could happen in the UK). Does anyone know if PT is likely to do this? If so, how to get around it?

Thanks in advance!


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## travelling-man

Nick

I'm not sure one pays tax in that situation...... we certainly didn't & I checked my tax status with a UK accountant before we made the move.

A quick read of the link below suggests no UK tax is payable & once the money is in the UK then surely it can be moved around the rest of Europe?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-to-Britain-keeping-your-tax-bill-down.html

Gotta say the case in the link is similar (different figures though) to our position when we left & although we didn't have to pay tax on the money coming in we did get screwed over (BIG TIME) by the South African Reserve Bank when we took our money out.


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## ExpatNick

Thanks travelling-man.

I'm not overly worried about bank charges when we move the cash - we have HSBC accounts everywhere and we don't pay transfer fees for the type of account we have, fortunately. It's the tax angle that concerns me - if, whilst a UK tax resident, you bring in money from overseas, it can be viewed as income by HMRC, thus attracting loads of tax.

I suppose the way to get around all this is to become tax resident in PT (by renting) then transfer the cash into the UK (or Jersey probably), and use the non-resident status in the UK plus the PT NHR status to avoid possible complications.

Any other thoughts would be most welccome though!


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## travelling-man

Nick

I wasn't referring to bank charges when I mentioned our situation. - Effectively the SA reserve bank cost us something like 25% of our lump sum....... but hey. That's Africa for you. 

FWIW, we moved ours from SA to IoM (Jersey would have been equally good) & then to PT & we didn't have any tax to pay but perhaps you'd be well advised to consult a good accountant either here or in the UK.


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## ExpatNick

25%!! That's very painful, especially if you've already paid tax etc on that sum. You must still be feeling aggrieved over that; I know I would be.

I might well talk to an accountant next week whilst on the Algarve.


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## travelling-man

I wasn't best pleased!


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## Sharoncf

D&M said:


> We are UK citizens moving to Portugal from Australia. Hope to be in Portugal in January 2016 looking for accommodation. Our goods would be shipped to arrive in February. In the meantime we have to get an address and proof of it so that we can supply it to the clearing agent. Is a 6 month rental easy to obtain in just a couple of weeks? We would be grateful to hear about the household goods shipping/residency situation as we will be packing and shipping quite soon. We know we have to have a baggage certificate but is there anything else?



Hi you need to be very careful. You need to get documentation from the consulate in Sydney so that you don't pay tax on your household goods. But, be aware you will still pay Portuguese costs on for getting your goods into the country and it is very difficult to find out out how much until the goods actually arrive. We sent over 6 boxes from Sydney, the cost from Australia was fine but we had to pay €650 in Portuguese charges for customs etc before we could get the boxes. We would also like to bring a container of goods but they will not give you an indication of costs to bring them into Portugal you only find out how much once you get the goods to Portugal. So be careful as you may end up paying double. It may be cheaper to buy here.


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## D&M

Sharoncf this is very alarming. Please tell us if you shipped the boxes on a door to door basis because that usually includes all clearance from customs (according to our shipper) If what you paid in Australia was for to the destination port only then that would have incurred extra charges at the Portuguese end. What was the 650 euros for ie clearance (ie administrative charge), demurrage or duty/vat? 

We have heard so many different things about all this that it is worrying. Our shipper says door to door all inclusive. Now I have been informed about the need for residency before customs will release our container free of vat/duty. We have taken that on board and arranged to store for a few months in Sydney and ship after we get official residency.


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## travelling-man

D&M

If you have a UK or other EU passport then you have the right to reside and getting the Residencia document takes about 20 minutes and costs very little.

Customs clearance charges are usually included in most quotes and if they're not then any reputable company will tell you that. 

To import your possessions free of tax you need to have a signed/stamped certificate of baggage issued to you by the PT Embassy/High Commission before you leave. - We came from South Africa and got ours from Pretoria but it was a very straightforward process and I'd expect it to be just as easy when coming from Oz.

You don't mention if you're bringing a car but just in case you are, there are several criteria you need to comply with and you'll find details of that by using the search function here.


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## D&M

Thanks travelling man! We have been told on this forum that even with a UK passport we cannot get residency until we have been in Portugal for 3 months so that is why we are storing in Sydney meanwhile. We will be there in January so will talk to the Camara anyway. If we have to live there for 3 months before we apply then so be it. We are organising the certificate of baggage as soon as the inventory is finalised. Our contract for shipment is door to door inclusive of destination charges. Our shipper is a very established company with a good reputation so we must have faith. No we are not bringing a car and will have to buy one in Portugal.


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## travelling-man

We were given our residencia a little before we'd been here 3 months but I gather you're supposed to get it 3-6 months of arrival...... but of course as there's no passport checks/records so not easy for them to check that but equally (I guess) not a problem for you to wait that 3 months before getting the Residencia. 

What area are you going to?


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## D&M

Central and we need to look around. What we have researched is Tomar to Coimbra and over to Gois but happy to explore and go north a bit, east a bit. We went to the Algarve a lot in the 80's and 90's and explored a bit of the Evora area a few years ago. Central appeals.


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## travelling-man

Pretty much the same area as we looked but we did also look slightly further afield as well & we ended up close to Figeiro Dos Vinhos which is about 25 minutes from Tomar & 35 from Coimbra. 

For what it's worth the bureaucrats in the areas of Figueiro dos Vinhos, Castanheira De Pera & Pedrogao Grande are all very helpful and accommodating but (I'm told) the ones in the larger towns such as Tomar, Coimbra & Penela etc perhaps slightly less so.


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## D&M

Good to know. Thanks for that heads up.:fingerscrossed:


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## Sharoncf

D&M said:


> Central and we need to look around. What we have researched is Tomar to Coimbra and over to Gois but happy to explore and go north a bit, east a bit. We went to the Algarve a lot in the 80's and 90's and explored a bit of the Evora area a few years ago. Central appeals.


Hi there now I am confused. We did not ship door to door because we were not told we could. We have a container of goods here that we would love to ship over so I would be glad to hear what you have been quoted. Maybe we went around it the wrong way.


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## Sharoncf

Sharoncf said:


> Hi there now I am confused. We did not ship door to door because we were not told we could. We have a container of goods here that we would love to ship over so I would be glad to hear what you have been quoted. Maybe we went around it the wrong way.


 Hi again. I am not,sure what I do to contact you by email. I would like to find out the name of your shipping company. We are actually in Australia at the moment


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## D&M

Sharoncf said:


> Hi there now I am confused. We did not ship door to door because we were not told we could. We have a container of goods here that we would love to ship over so I would be glad to hear what you have been quoted. Maybe we went around it the wrong way.


Today we have been to the Portuguese Consulate in Sydney and clarified the situation at least as far as we are concerned. However the information, in all or part, will apply to anyone moving to Portugal from Australia. 

Sharoncf you mentioned just shipping 6 boxes initially. It may be that the shipper did not have a door to door option which we have found is the case for some services. They leave the destination business to the customer. Perhaps you were charged VAT/duty.

We have had many quotes for a full container of 20'. The established international removalists offer a full export wrapping, loading, shipping from your Australian residence to your overseas residence. All port handling charges and documentation at either end are included. Ad hoc customs inspections (if any), VAT and duty are not included. If you get your paperwork straight then there should be no VAT/duty on personal household goods. The paperwork that you need to get in order to avoid these charges is down to you to get. The shipper does not do that bit and to be honest, the shippers' reps here have no idea about what it takes to move to Portugal. They just hand you a list printed off from the FIDI (Fédération Internationale des Déménageurs Internationaux) website and it's see ya later.

The quotes have ranged from AUD$7-9.5k. We looked at alternatives - buying a container and packing ourselves and getting someone to ship it. Can be done for half that price but then you still have to find a clearing agent and pay fees at the destination. Bit of a hassle and negligible saving in the final reckoning. You still have to buy insurance on top. The shippers offer the insurance but they get a cut of the premium so as you might imagine their quotes are on the high side. We have arranged it through a broker and saved. You still have to get your own baggage certificate here to avoid duty and VAT in Portugal. Now to the frustrating bit:

According to the PT Consulate in Sydney, to get a baggage certificate we need

an NIF number
a provable residential address in Portugal
a residency permit that you only get after being there for 3 months
a one-way ticket to Portugal
an inventory of the goods (based on what and how they've been packed)
proof that we have lived in Australia for a year (and therefore the assumption is that we owned the goods for that long)-utility bills are good.

So-there is no way that we can get the baggage certificate in Sydney while we are still here. The baggage certificate can be obtained once we are in Portugal but it still has to be issued in Sydney. 

We have been left with no choice but to pack and store here, go to Portugal and wait until we meet the requirements, get the paperwork, send it to Sydney, they post it back to us in Portugal, and then we can give the shipper the go-ahead. 

For a moment there today we lost the will to live. 

If you meet all these requirements already then great. Get quotes and see if it is possible to send for your stuff. We found that this website link is helpful in selecting removalists. removalists international - ProductReview.com.au

We got 4+ quotes and made a list of our bottom line requirements before we talked to them. If you want any more info then happy to discuss on pm. Don't pay their asking price-negotiate it down or ask for added value.

Believe that you are supposed to get your personal effects into PT within a year of arrival so maybe check that too. Good luck.


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## travelling-man

You might like to have them check and if necessary recheck those requirements because FWIW, we did a similar move (but from South Africa) to Portugal about 4 years ago and there was no need for a NIF number or Residencia to be presented before we left/to get the Certificate of Baggage....... we did however have to provide an address in Portugal but only a contact address, not a residential one. 

I reckon whoever you spoke to in the Consulate must have got that bit wrong. - More to the point, it's impossible to get the Residencia before you leave which would mean you' have to go to Portugal to get the residencia and then return to Oz to get the CoB...... which is ruddy blidiculous!


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## grammymissy

It sounds like you are being treated as non EU members, as non EU we had to have residence VISA's in hand to apply for baggagem certificate, fiscal numbers and address to ship to, and have proof of living in house before goods arrived. If you hold UK passports, then it could be a misunderstanding.


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## SpiggyTopes

I have just done this from the UAE without residency but I did have NIF number. And an address (which no one checked).

My shipper has an office and warehouse in Sintra and was very helpful with all the paperwork, right through to delivery.

An address is important ..... not only for the shipping but also for driving licence, bank account etc. I believe you can appoint a solicitor to act as an address for you.

Let me know if you need any details of the people I use.


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## Sharoncf

D&M said:


> Today we have been to the Portuguese Consulate in Sydney and clarified the situation at least as far as we are concerned. However the information, in all or part, will apply to anyone moving to Portugal from Australia. Sharoncf you mentioned just shipping 6 boxes initially. It may be that the shipper did not have a door to door option which we have found is the case for some services. They leave the destination business to the customer. Perhaps you were charged VAT/duty. We have had many quotes for a full container of 20'. The established international removalists offer a full export wrapping, loading, shipping from your Australian residence to your overseas residence. All port handling charges and documentation at either end are included. Ad hoc customs inspections (if any), VAT and duty are not included. If you get your paperwork straight then there should be no VAT/duty on personal household goods. The paperwork that you need to get in order to avoid these charges is down to you to get. The shipper does not do that bit and to be honest, the shippers' reps here have no idea about what it takes to move to Portugal. They just hand you a list printed off from the FIDI (Fédération Internationale des Déménageurs Internationaux) website and it's see ya later. The quotes have ranged from AUD$7-9.5k. We looked at alternatives - buying a container and packing ourselves and getting someone to ship it. Can be done for half that price but then you still have to find a clearing agent and pay fees at the destination. Bit of a hassle and negligible saving in the final reckoning. You still have to buy insurance on top. The shippers offer the insurance but they get a cut of the premium so as you might imagine their quotes are on the high side. We have arranged it through a broker and saved. You still have to get your own baggage certificate here to avoid duty and VAT in Portugal. Now to the frustrating bit: According to the PT Consulate in Sydney, to get a baggage certificate we need [*]an NIF number [*]a provable residential address in Portugal [*]a residency permit that you only get after being there for 3 months [*]a one-way ticket to Portugal [*]an inventory of the goods (based on what and how they've been packed) [*]proof that we have lived in Australia for a year (and therefore the assumption is that we owned the goods for that long)-utility bills are good. So-there is no way that we can get the baggage certificate in Sydney while we are still here. The baggage certificate can be obtained once we are in Portugal but it still has to be issued in Sydney. We have been left with no choice but to pack and store here, go to Portugal and wait until we meet the requirements, get the paperwork, send it to Sydney, they post it back to us in Portugal, and then we can give the shipper the go-ahead. For a moment there today we lost the will to live. If you meet all these requirements already then great. Get quotes and see if it is possible to send for your stuff. We found that this website link is helpful in selecting removalists. removalists international - ProductReview.com.au We got 4+ quotes and made a list of our bottom line requirements before we talked to them. If you want any more info then happy to discuss on pm. Don't pay their asking price-negotiate it down or ask for added value. Believe that you are supposed to get your personal effects into PT within a year of arrival so maybe check that too. Good luck.



Hi we had all,of the paperwork. My husband, who is Portuguese, did all the paperwork. He says that you still need to be careful about the charges in Portugal. We did not pay the tax because it was less than one year, but we had to pay a lot,of other charges that the Portuguese charge which was nothing to do with tax. Fernando has a list of what they were and I am happy to give you a list so you can check it all. But, can't do that for another 3 weeks until we are back there. He thinks that it may be only €650 for you it is not on the value of the container it is customs charges here if they check or not. Originally we were told it would be €170 which was fine but when we went to pay all of a sudden it was a lot more


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## D&M

SpiggyTopes said:


> I have just done this from the UAE without residency but I did have NIF number. And an address (which no one checked).
> 
> My shipper has an office and warehouse in Sintra and was very helpful with all the paperwork, right through to delivery.
> 
> An address is important ..... not only for the shipping but also for driving licence, bank account etc. I believe you can appoint a solicitor to act as an address for you.
> 
> Let me know if you need any details of the people I use.


Thanks for your offer of helpful contacts.

Unfortunately the Portuguese Consulate here just won't issue a baggage certificate without the list in my post. You and others might be correct but makes no difference to them. We were emphatic about saying we are UK citizens but makes no difference.

Regarding the driving licence we have to get the motor registry here to authenticate our licences (the one they gave us with a hologram and other hard to copy details that they issued to us in the first place) and take that authentication to the Consulate who will "authenticate the authentication" We repeated that to them just to be sure. 

We specifically asked if a lawyer's address could be used. No it has to be our residential address.


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## D&M

Sharoncf said:


> Hi we had all,of the paperwork. My husband, who is Portuguese, did all the paperwork. He says that you still need to be careful about the charges in Portugal. We did not pay the tax because it was less than one year, but we had to pay a lot,of other charges that the Portuguese charge which was nothing to do with tax. Fernando has a list of what they were and I am happy to give you a list so you can check it all. But, can't do that for another 3 weeks until we are back there. He thinks that it may be only €650 for you it is not on the value of the container it is customs charges here if they check or not. Originally we were told it would be €170 which was fine but when we went to pay all of a sudden it was a lot more


Our take on dealing with customs people and clearing goods -based on imports for business reasons here in OZ-is that they really only like dealing with agents. We cleared something ourselves once and found them obstructive, unhelpful and costly and you can't argue with them. We have always used an agent since.

Having said that yes a copy of your list of charges would be great to have when we are finalising things with our shipper. Knowledge is power and all that.

I will try to message you with an email address and we can chat off forum.


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## D&M

travelling-man said:


> You might like to have them check and if necessary recheck those requirements because FWIW, we did a similar move (but from South Africa) to Portugal about 4 years ago and there was no need for a NIF number or Residencia to be presented before we left/to get the Certificate of Baggage....... we did however have to provide an address in Portugal but only a contact address, not a residential one.
> 
> I reckon whoever you spoke to in the Consulate must have got that bit wrong. - More to the point, it's impossible to get the Residencia before you leave which would mean you' have to go to Portugal to get the residencia and then return to Oz to get the CoB...... which is ruddy blidiculous!


What you say is completely logical. It just isn't what was said to us.


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## Sharoncf

D&M said:


> Our take on dealing with customs people and clearing goods -based on imports for business reasons here in OZ-is that they really only like dealing with agents. We cleared something ourselves once and found them obstructive, unhelpful and costly and you can't argue with them. We have always used an agent since. Having said that yes a copy of your list of charges would be great to have when we are finalising things with our shipper. Knowledge is power and all that. I will try to message you with an email address and we can chat off forum.


Great. I would message you but I don't know how to do it.


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## travelling-man

D&M said:


> What you say is completely logical. It just isn't what was said to us.


If I were in your position I'd be inclined to go back and argue my case until I was blue in the face & if they still stuck to that same position, I'd insist they give me something in writing that details their position AND have it signed by the fidiot concerned.


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## D&M

travelling-man said:


> If I were in your position I'd be inclined to go back and argue my case until I was blue in the face & if they still stuck to that same position, I'd insist they give me something in writing that details their position AND have it signed by the fidiot concerned.


Ha ha yes. Problem is it is 2 hours on the train there and back. Then we waited for over an hour until someone saw us. They were all very pleasant but we were told that they had never dealt before with anything like our case ie UK citizens moving to Pt. with their household goods from Australia. Then we were given the list of rules and regs. The forms that we have to fill in appear to be designed for returning Portuguese nationals (ID numbers, NIF, mother's name, father's name) but that is what we are stuck with. 

If it wasn't for the positive comments here about living in Portugal and the great times that we have had there in the past we would ditch the whole thing. It should not be this hard to move there with our capital and income and spend it all in that economy.


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## SpiggyTopes

The Certido de Bagagem is issued by the Consulate based on a list that you prepare. It is not necessarily related to the list prepared by the shipper.

Itemised but not valued item by item, just showing a total value.

When I gave an address no one checked it at the Consulate, as I recall; if you do need an address, a letting agreement will do, which you might be able to arrange on line. The address makes no difference to where the stuff is eventually delivered.

As far as the Consulate is concerned, we were received by the Deputy Head of Mission and Consul and treated with typical Portuguese kindness .... at one point the stress was showing and he told me to relax and that it was his job to make it easy for us to get to Portugal.


I hope this helps a bit.


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## travelling-man

D&M said:


> Ha ha yes. Problem is it is 2 hours on the train there and back. Then we waited for over an hour until someone saw us. They were all very pleasant but we were told that they had never dealt before with anything like our case ie UK citizens moving to Pt. with their household goods from Australia. Then we were given the list of rules and regs. The forms that we have to fill in appear to be designed for returning Portuguese nationals (ID numbers, NIF, mother's name, father's name) but that is what we are stuck with.
> 
> If it wasn't for the positive comments here about living in Portugal and the great times that we have had there in the past we would ditch the whole thing. It should not be this hard to move there with our capital and income and spend it all in that economy.


I appreciate it's a bit of a schlep to get there but it'll be even more of a schlep if you have to come here, get your residencia and then go back to Oz for the CoB lane:

Perhaps it might be worth your consulting the Brit Embassy to see what they tell you?

The good news is once you get here and get the bureaucracy sorted out, it's very nice indeed.


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## D&M

SpiggyTopes said:


> The Certido de Bagagem is issued by the Consulate based on a list that you prepare. It is not necessarily related to the list prepared by the shipper.
> 
> Itemised but not valued item by item, just showing a total value.
> 
> When I gave an address no one checked it at the Consulate, as I recall; if you do need an address, a letting agreement will do, which you might be able to arrange on line. The address makes no difference to where the stuff is eventually delivered.
> 
> As far as the Consulate is concerned, we were received by the Deputy Head of Mission and Consul and treated with typical Portuguese kindness .... at one point the stress was showing and he told me to relax and that it was his job to make it easy for us to get to Portugal.
> 
> 
> I hope this helps a bit.


Thanks for the boost. Unfortunately our experience was no help offered but smiles and pleasantness yes.


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## SpiggyTopes

Just re reading ..... your case is similar to ours moving from the UAE, except my wife is Philippina, so a degree more complex.

I wonder if you are, perhaps, asking too many questions at the Consulate or talking too much? I'm not being rude, but sometimes there is a tendency to over think things and offer too much information (which is what I do).

You could consider:

* Return to the Consulate and try again, but I think you will need an address here. It is not their job to obstruct you.
* Engage a shipping agent here in Portugal to help advise on the paperwork (but then you might feel tied to their company for the shipping).
* Engage a lawyer here to help you with the residencia (although you should not need any help with residency, but maybe with an address).

We did both of the second items and haven't looked back.


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## D&M

travelling-man said:


> I appreciate it's a bit of a schlep to get there but it'll be even more of a schlep if you have to come here, get your residencia and then go back to Oz for the CoB lane:
> 
> Perhaps it might be worth your consulting the Brit Embassy to see what they tell you?
> 
> The good news is once you get here and get the bureaucracy sorted out, it's very nice indeed.


We don't physically have to return as it will done by post and yes we are focused on how nice it will be when we get there. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## D&M

SpiggyTopes said:


> Just re reading ..... your case is similar to ours moving from the UAE, except my wife is Philippina, so a degree more complex.
> 
> I wonder if you are, perhaps, asking too many questions at the Consulate or talking too much? I'm not being rude, but sometimes there is a tendency to over think things and offer too much information (which is what I do).
> 
> You could consider:
> 
> * Return to the Consulate and try again, but I think you will need an address here. It is not their job to obstruct you.
> * Engage a shipping agent here in Portugal to help advise on the paperwork (but then you might feel tied to their company for the shipping).
> * Engage a lawyer here to help you with the residencia (although you should not need any help with residency, but maybe with an address).
> 
> We did both of the second items and haven't looked back.


Thanks Spiggy. You are not being rude at all. We cannot thank everyone here enough for their interest in our situation and advice. We take on board your comments re: talking to much and offering too much information. A friend in the UK who has had a house in PT for 30 years is putting us in touch with a lawyer there. We shall see what can be done.


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## dstump

*SYD Consulate*

D&M, 

You certainly seem to be getting the run around from the Consulate in SYD. We are EU citizens and moved from Dubai, and had none of the nonsense you have been spun. Maybe the nice people in SYD should put in a call to the guys in UAE. 

Ask guys in SYD to take another look at their own web site for issuance of a baggage certificate:

Consulate General of Portugal in Sydney - Certificate of Goods

It asks for the following:

_Please post or email the following documents:
Personal details form;
List of goods filled in (except for column nº de ordem) and signed
Proof of address in Australia (over 12 months)
Address in Portugal
Photocopies of one way ticket
Photocopy of Identity Card or Passport
Proof of bank transfer
The certificate of goods will be mailed to your address in Australia or Portugal (please select) which must be paid by bank transfer;_

No mention of NIF, no mention of 'provable' address in PT, just an address, no mention of a resident certificate. Suggest you give them another call and see if you can get to speak to a supervisor or manager.

As for the three months residency certificate, this is for the customs guys at this end, they won't allow your stuff into the country without visibility of it, because you are coming from a non-EU country in-spite of you being EU citizens. However, have you considered shipping your stuff and storing it in PT for the three months, while you get the paperwork sorted. Please refer to my previous PM on speeding up the process. This way you are in more control of your stuff.

I think the guys in the consulate are getting confused and reading the follow point on the site incorrectly:

_... a Certificate of Goods will need to be issued by the consulate of your area of residence:

* Portuguese nationals need to be registered at the consulate;_
* *Foreign citizens can also request the certificate after obtaining a residence visa for Portugal.*

You need to remind them you are an EU citizen not a foreign citizen and therefore don't need a visa to enter any European country.


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## rubytwo

travelling-man said:


> D&M
> 
> If you have a UK or other EU passport then you have the right to reside and getting the Residencia document takes about 20 minutes and costs very little.


But even with an EU passport you still need to have proof of residential address right?


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## travelling-man

rubytwo said:


> But even with an EU passport you still need to have proof of residential address right?



Ruby

not necessarily. It seems to depend on what Camara you go to. 

The 3 local Camaras in my area don't ask for any proof and all they require is your passport, NIF number & a few Euros. (Something in the region of €20 per person IIRC)

They do need an address to put on the document but you don't have to provide PROOF of it as in utility bills etc.

Then once you have a permanent home of your own you go back to the Fiscal office and change the address on your Fiscal/Nif document & then take that to the Camara and have them issue a new Residencia with the new address on it.


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## Portugal-or-Spain?

ExpatNick said:


> 25%!! That's very painful, especially if you've already paid tax etc on that sum. You must still be feeling aggrieved over that; I know I would be.
> 
> I might well talk to an accountant next week whilst on the Algarve.


Have you made the move Nick? You seem to have deserted the thread?

I have plenty of advice on the NHR program, which you would need to email me about. Publicly, I would caution you that Portugal can be a bureaucratic quagmire, and I would be very careful. For example, you may find one government department or office states one thing, while another, another thing. And neither will change their statement, nor will they accept the statement of the other, and in the end, they will just ignore you. It is vital that you get an International financial law firm to handle it for you, and for them to provide references / case studies up front. The worst aspect of the NHR is the ambiguous wording / classification of what professionals qualify and which do not. Ambiguous is great? As it lets you claim whatever? No, ambiguous is bad, really bad.

You should consider establishing residency first, with a rental; I would caution you against buying straight away, not least as you should perform due diligence on the property you are considering yourselves, as well as through your lawyer. And, I can not stress this enough, make sure EVERYTHING is put in writing, no matter how blatantly obvious the "facts" may seem to you (instances of public access roads becoming private due to missing Camara files and despite street lights and Stop signs eventually only serving a local land owners potatoes).

There is also a massive amount to be said for buying on the border with Spain, and operating any business you have from Spain (Spain has horrible and aggressive worldwide personal taxation / wealth laws, but IMHO much better business rules / laws); this would also allow you to drive much cheaper Spanish registered cars (for personal use only) in Portugal and give you access to the Spanish health care system (truly, I would research Portuguese health care before relying upon it).

As regard to your UK business interests, I have found many beneficial loop holes.


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## travelling-man

From my experience and others I know of, the PT NHS is absolutely tip top.


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## ExpatNick

*Not abandoned the post....*

....just been busy for three months, visiting Borneo, Australia, the US and Mexico. Just back a week or so agao, hence the hiatus.

I'm very interested in what you have said in your reply "Portugal-or-Spain" and will send an IM separately. You may have seen I've been ramping up the messages on EF these last few days - it's back to the real world and finding a permanent residence!


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## Maggy Crawford

I can only say that, as a pensioner, my experience of the Portuguese Public Health Service has been second to none but then we are served by Coimbra which has an excellent reputation and facilities. (See another post of mine praising the HUC). Other hospitals can differ widely and civil servants seem to interpret rules differently.


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## rubytwo

TonyJ1 said:


> the SEF website provides comprehensive details on different alternatives / requirements in terms of the law.


Pardon my ignorance but what is the SEF website. After a big delay we're finally arriving as EU citizen and spouse. Does anyone have any tips for the residency application as the spouse of an EU citizen?


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## JohnBoy

SEF website is here in English:

https://goo.gl/E5Ykas


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