# Castellano fatigue... / Language Depression



## MovingtoSpain (May 6, 2009)

I know there are lots of great posts on here with ideas for learning Spanish, but I was just wondering how many of you have ended up with language-learning fatigue at times during your 'journey.'

I started learning properly in October (though I did a two week intensive in July) - from scratch, had never studied it at school. I was lucky enough to get a place at the official language school, which is cheap and also has career teachers. I can't stress how good they are BUT...

BUT I'm now in the segundo level, A2 or whatever it is, and I am frustrated at a) how slowly it's moving and b) how slowly I am learning. I go for 2 hours a day and yet don't seem to be progressing - we've only just got to the past tenses. I think one of the issues is that I'm one of only two Europeans in the class - the other 20 or so are mainly Chinese, lovely teen and twentysomethings, but obviously they struggle as much with a Latin language as I would with Chinese (actually, no, I'd struggle so much more). I got a high mark at the end of primero, but now I feel stuck. I have wondered about giving up the class, as it seems to be a law of diminishing returns, but I know the other schools aren't that good and are very expensive.

I do try to study in my spare time, too - using books and podcasts etc and I try to speak to Spanish friends - but I don't seem to retain it that well. My age, perhaps (early 40s)? And then I just end up feeling overwhelmed by the difficulties of getting a decent command of it. I seem to have hit a wall. I am desperate to communicate better - and I was quite good at languages at school - but recently I've almost been thinking that if I can't get past this, maybe I should just go home as at this rate it'll be a decade before I can discuss anything beyond how noisy it is in my barrio and what time I get up in the morning. Perhaps it doesn't help that we're in Barcelona, so the road/market signs etc are mainly in Catalan too.

Has anyone been through something similar and can tell me it gets better?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Very interesting post which unfortunately i don't have time to go into now, but as a quick answer YES! I've had castellano fatigue (great expression!!) and at 2 hours a day I think you should be going perhaps a little faster, so I would look at different options - not giving up on the Escuela Oficial before you change, but start looking at other stuff available, Town Hall, private classes, online support...
Where abouts in Spain are you??
PS It's great that you're even making the effort, so congratulations for that!


----------



## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

I had a similar feeling when I was learning cantonese some years ago, and I never really got fluent with it. Spanish is, by comparison easier to pick up, but still will take years to be fluent. You've invested a lot of time and money into learning so don't give up. Spending a little while each day watching Spanish TV helps. News and documentary programs are best (the speakers speak clearly and try to have nuetral accent)


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MovingtoSpain said:


> I know there are lots of great posts on here with ideas for learning Spanish, but I was just wondering how many of you have ended up with language-learning fatigue at times during your 'journey.'
> 
> I started learning properly in October (though I did a two week intensive in July) - from scratch, had never studied it at school. I was lucky enough to get a place at the official language school, which is cheap and also has career teachers. I can't stress how good they are BUT...
> 
> ...


I think everyone does get to a sticking point when learning a foreign language - & maybe need to take a break from intense study (or not, depending on your personality). And yes, it does get harder as you get older - but not impossible. I was in my early 40s when I first stared learning Spanish - and now teach 'survival Spanish'! (as well as English)


I find that students get to a point when they either decide they know enough for what they want - or conversely will never know as much as they want to - so give up. 

Often after a short break they return - regretting the break because they have forgotten a lot of what they learned.

When first starting to study Spanish I went to a language school & studied in a large group intensely for a year. At that point I began to get frustrated, because some in the group were slowing things down - and also we'd still only been taught to speak in the present tense - this after 4.5 hours of class time every week!

I left & did some self-study & spoke Spanish to my neighbours as much as possible. Then after a few months took some one-to-one classes to get some of the tenses sorted out in my mind.

For me - just changing tactics helped.

I would thoroughly recommend trying an intercambio - in a large group it's hard to actually speak very much - and after all, it is about communication!

I actually have a lady who has been studying (in a very large group) for some years & her knowledge of grammar is amazing - yet she occasionally pops in to my 'survival' groups - way below her knowledge level - just to be able to speak in Spanish!


----------



## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Yes, your brain can become over saturated after a while, can't it! I think even those of us who have studied the language to a high level - especially grammar - come unstuck at first when trying to use that knowledge in an everyday environment. I always say study as much as you want, but it's nothing like being out there and conversing with the natives - finding the "natural rhythm" of a conversation. It just doesn't follow the sometimes sterile classroom experience. I think once you feel comfortable just giving it a go amongst friends you'll find that your base in grammar will really help you out and you'll see that you know more than you think, or can use your knowledge base to get around a situation by simply putting it in another way - then your confidence will return.

I have a friend from here who has been taken "under the wing" of Galician neighbours and goes for coffee with them everyday just to sit around, listen and join in where she can. It's worked wonders for her.

Keep on at it though!

Tallulah.x


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

MovingtoSpain been there a hundred times. Just take a break. Set yourself three weeks say and don't study - not at all - just relax - no stress - no strain - read an english novel - watch english TV - chill 

When you go back you may be surprised that your brain has had a reorganise and things seem clearer. Your appetite and energy renewed.

Learning a language is not easy but the rewards for me have been incredible: whether it was ordering my first cafe con leche all those years ago or arguing the republican stand against my Francoite brother-in-law at the new year party, it made all the effort worthwhile. 

[OK in the latter case my spanish must have been horrible because we are still speaking  ]

Hang on in there MovingtoSpain - we know you can do it


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2010)

Heck, I had a Castellano breakdown the other night! My boyfriend and his family only speak Spanish, so for me it's been a sink-or-swim lesson. I've improved amazingly over the last year. 

Try to get yourself out of the classroom and into a full on immersion experience. Go to a cafe and eavesdrop on the retired folk there. (Or go on a football night, always fun to listen to folks then.) Watch Spanish tv with Spanish subtitles so you can connect visually what you hear. Start a conversation with your neighbor in the cafe - "Rotten weather, isn't it?" usually gets them going. Don't worry if you don't understand everything. It's taken me two years of 24-hour immersion to reach near-fluency. 

One very important thing that took me a bit to learn: When you're learning a language in an immersion setting, DO NOT be afraid to ask "I'm sorry, I don't understand. Can you explain?" If you're too afraid to ask, you'll never learn. 

I see that you're in Barcelona. People in little Santander were big on doing "intercambios" last year to sit down with someone, they practice their English and you practice your Spanish. And if you can find it in little Santander, I'm sure big bad Barcelona is crawling with exchanges like this! 

Best of luck, and don't give up! I get really frustrated all the time.


----------



## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

I completely understand where you are coming from! I think this will be a post of real interest to those who have a love for the spanish language. I have been learning Spanish since 2000 - I now have a degree in span lang n' lit and am also married to a Spanish speaker - and - ominous drum roll - I still struggle! I can talk no problemo (I do a riveting debrief on Spanish film genres during the final years of the Franco regime) but when my hubby is raving on to the Choripan Man at our local market (in Oz) - there are bits I just don't get. I'm rocking along, all is well - but as soon as I think "I'm gettin' this!" I lose the plot! Also, one new word thrown in can be the crux of the convo, and put a major spanner in the works!

I need immersion, you have it and I envy you (in the nicest possible way). I am 100% positive I will get there. In fact, I think I am very close to "breakthrough day" where it all falls in to place. But still, not quite there.

One thing that helps me HEAPS is to watch a movie in Spanish with the spanish subtitles on. This really helps me to get what they are saying (especially if it is an argentinean accent, that of my hubby). I also try to read El Pais each day (online) and use wordreferencedotcom which is fabulous (hope I can say that). Also the news is great because they are pretty easy to understand, except the interviews with the footballers!!!

By the way, I am 46, and I totally reject our brains are past it!!! What else can we think - we have to be positive - if you don't believe, it ain't gonna happen (my life mantra).

Best of luck, and I am confident you will get over this hump.

Jockm


----------



## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

MovingtoSpain said:


> Has anyone been through something similar and can tell me it gets better?


I highly recommend a home study course.

I've been studying an hour a day for two and a half months and I'm extremely happy with my progress.

Although I haven't spoke to a Spanish person yet, so maybe it's all a giant dillusion.

But I'm very confident than in 6 months, which is when I move to spain, I'll have a great base from which to obtain conversational fluency within a few months.

My friend, who is fluent in 9 languages, claims to have learnt fluent portugease in 6 months studying an hour a day with this method and I believe him. Although he did know fluent Spanish before starting, so that probably helps .

The method is this...

You need a course which says an English phrase, and then has you say the Spanish. It MUST be phrases, and it must be exactly like that - it says English, you say the Spanish, then it says the correct Spanish, then you say the Spanish again correcting any pronunciation errors.

Anything else does not have the same effect. Listening to Spanish and saying English teaches you how to speak English. Listening to words and saying them doesn't teach you well - it's in having to quickly arrange words into a sentence and then say them that the brain learns languages effectively. Learning words is no good unless you already know all the structures as second nature.

If you have the cash then learning spanish like crazy is the way to go -

http://www.learningspanishlikecrazy.com

Pimsleur is also supposed to be very good - and from the trial lessons I'd concur.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

With respect Riches, you're the only one here who is confident that he'll be fluent after learning Spanish for a year with a home studying course and the only one who hasnt spoken to a Spanish person and doesnt live here yet!???

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

You've dedicated quite a lot of time, money and effort into this, AND you've made progress, so I really wouldn't give up!
I think Catellano fatigue is quite an easy phenonemon to understand. When I was dropped in at the deep end and was living and breathing Spanish and also having private classes it got to the point where I couldn't learn any more until I'd gone out and used what I'd learnt, so I stopped the classes for a while until I felt my brain had caught up with my mouth (Actually, that's quite a feat, isn't it!!?)
However, from what you've said that's not really your problem. You think you're not making progress so perhaps you just need a change, another angle?? Using something from internet or CDs is an idea, but it seems a shame not to use the spanish speakers around you, so I'd say intercambio is the way to go and perhaps some kind of activity where you actually have to communicate a bit, like some kind of arts and crafts activity or cookery class. Could be difficult finding these things in Castellano though... Or classes in another place - IH for example.


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm with you there, have almost got to the point of giving up as I seem to have hit a brick wall. No matter how much I study/read/write/listen to it's never the same as speaking it. I lack the confidence to speak it most of the time but when I go out to a Spanish bar with my girlfriend (fluent spanish) we try to speak the whole night in Spanish (ok, maybe a little Spanglish) but that really helps boost your confidence and drums in phrases rather than grammar drills.

Intercambios have been mentioned but I really struggled with them as I could never really find anyone at a similar level and you tend to fall back to whoever is at a higher level. We also organised some conversational Spanish classes at a local bar with mixed results, made some good friends but not sure it did much for my Spanish. Can't remember the last time I walked into a bar and started with.. "Hi, my name is Andy. I am 40 years old. I work in IT. I have one sister. I have lived in Spain for 3 years" etc!!!


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You've dedicated quite a lot of time, money and effort into this, AND you've made progress, so I really wouldn't give up!
> I think Catellano fatigue is quite an easy phenonemon to understand. When I was dropped in at the deep end and was living and breathing Spanish and also having private classes it got to the point where I couldn't learn any more until I'd gone out and used what I'd learnt, so I stopped the classes for a while until I felt my brain had caught up with my mouth (Actually, that's quite a feat, isn't it!!?)
> However, from what you've said that's not really your problem. You think you're not making progress so perhaps you just need a change, another angle?? Using something from internet or CDs is an idea, but it seems a shame not to use the spanish speakers around you, so I'd say intercambio is the way to go and perhaps some kind of activity where you actually have to communicate a bit, like some kind of arts and crafts activity or cookery class. Could be difficult finding these things in Castellano though... Or classes in another place - IH for example.


Actually yes - find something possibly non-related where you _have to_ speak Spanish. 

My really big breakthrough was joining AMPA (the school parent's assoc.) & being the only non-Spanish person there. 

If I wanted to say anything I had to speak Spanish - & managed to convince them not to conduct their meetings in Valenciano if they wanted a better representation of nationalities & non-native Valencians ((ie from other parts of Spain) on the committee.


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jojo said:


> With respect Riches, you're the only one here who is confident that he'll be fluent after learning Spanish for a year with a home studying course and the only one who hasnt spoken to a Spanish person and doesnt live here yet!???
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo that's very true but Rags has a tremendous positive attitude and he hasn't wavered from his objective once. That strikes me as more than half the battle.

My only worry is for the poor spaniards he meets when he arrives. With his determination (a man on a mission) no barman is going to escape with just a few words. Can't wait to hear how he gets on


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

There is of course the famous *intermediate plateau *that many people get stranded on. That's when you get to the stage where everyone can understand you more or less. You make mistakes, but not enough to impede communication. You have a limited basic vocab so you say for example _pretty_ for everything instead of using other alternatives like attractive, pleasant, drop dead gorgeous etc. 
It's not such a bad place to be in, but can still get frustrating when you can't express yourself as well as you'd like to be able to.


----------



## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

jojo said:


> With respect Riches, you're the only one here who is confident that he'll be fluent after learning Spanish for a year with a home studying course and the only one who hasnt spoken to a Spanish person and doesnt live here yet!???
> 
> Jo xxx


Can't argue with you. Like I said, maybe I'm deluded.

I'm meeting a Spanish friend next week who I haven't seen since before I decided to go to Spain so that should be very interesting.


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> perhaps some kind of activity where you actually have to communicate a bit, like some kind of arts and crafts activity or cookery class. Could be difficult finding these things in Castellano though...


My mother in law takes a ton of crafting courses through the local town hall. Look into "casa de cultura" or ask at the town hall. Also, look up the "Escuela Oficial de Tiempo Libre." The one up here offers classes every now and then in things like humor, etc. 

I'm not sure if you have these sorts of things available where you live, but Pesky Wesky made a very good suggestion. It'd be a neat way to throw yourself head first into Spanish!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> My mother in law takes a ton of crafting courses through the local town hall. Look into "casa de cultura" or ask at the town hall. Also, look up the "Escuela Oficial de Tiempo Libre." The one up here offers classes every now and then in things like humor, etc.


Never heard of it????!!


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Never heard of it????!!


Come to think of it, I haven't seen it advertised in Vizcaya either. It might just be a Cantabria thing!


----------



## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

I totally sympathise with the frustrations of learning Spanish. I feel that since I started to learn the language about 8 years ago, I hit a wall, or plateau every so often. The first was after attending classes at the casa de la cultura, which were mainly focused on grammar rather than speaking, that was okay because I had plenty of practise with a Spanish speaking boyfriend who didnt speak English, and relatives etc. But when I got to the subjunctive I had a mental block and couldnt bear to continue. But I found an intercambio through the casa de la cultura and later I stopped the classes for a while but I always found myself in situations where I was immersed in the language - ie. going to ante-natal classes - that was quite intense and exhausting (and that was before the birth! lol) but got through it.

Some people learn quicker than others and as everyone has said here, its a life long process, so try not to get hung up about it. Like XabiaChica, it has helped me learn by attending AMPA activities (and I am the only non-Spanish there too) or trying to communicate with the other mothers. Sometime my grammar is still atrocious but I am happy if I can be understood and can communicate. I am still frustrated at my limitations with the language but I have to read and write a lot in Spanish too, and so am always learning in daily life. This week I had an intense tutorial with a parent at the school I work at so that was intense Spanish immersion!

I think one of the most important things is to be "open" to speaking Spanish and taking the initiative in conversations without worrying too much about whether you are speaking perfectly and continue even if they insist in answering in English.

Its great that you are so determined to learn when so many people cant even be bothered.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

What a shame movingtospain didn't reply to this when logged on a while ago... 

Another thing you can do to dive into to the deep end with your Spanish is go to some voluntary association or NGO. I remember someone on here a while ago helped out at a dogs home.


----------



## MovingtoSpain (May 6, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What a shame movingtospain didn't reply to this when logged on a while ago...
> .


Hello
Sorry, I must seem rude. I was just about to reply and then got called away before I had the chance to say thanks properly, as everyone's been so generous with their ideas and thoughts and sympathies. I can only dream of Intermediate Level Fatigue, but it's so good to know we've all been through it. 

Funnily enough, we are going to a chocolate tasting this afternoon which turns out to be in Spanish so let's see how much of THAT I manage to understand...! I think I will learn some VERY important vocabulary. 

I'm going to copy and paste all the suggestions and am also feeling less down about the idea of taking a little break from it for a few days. 

Thanks again, very much appreciated,
xxx


----------



## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Chocolate tasting! Mmmmm! Can't see much talking going on there though, in any language!


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> Chocolate tasting! Mmmmm! Can't see much talking going on there though, in any language!


yo mmmmmmo
tu mmmmmmes
usted mmmmmmm
Nosotros mmmmmmemos
Vosotros mmmmmmmeis
Ustedes mmmmmmmen

or perhaps molar comes into play. muy muy mola 

MovingtoSpain this sounds like just the break you needed. Can I come ?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Classes in _Manualidades_ (Handicrafts), _cocina_ (cookery) or art/painting are very good. They are mostly attended by women (some men) but don't let that bother you if you are a male (they will welcome you!) If you don't speak much Spanish they will talk _to_ you and _about_ you so you have a very good incentive to learn. To be fair if there is a technique or something that is worthwhile your learning, they will make extra effort to help you understand. Sometimes they will want to learn from you.


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

*Language Depression*

For context, today I was in the bank sorting out some paperwork. All in Spanish. It took about twenty minutes, I went through it with a seemingly nice woman who helped me out with a bunch of stuff and we were having a nice chat, still in Spanish, when she asked me how long I've been here. I replied 'Six years.'

And she, very seriously, said 'Pero ¡hablas muy mal español!' 

She did grab my hand and apologize immediately, but the damage was done - I now felt absolutely horrible, muttered something about probably not spending enough time in banks to know all the jargon, and just wanted to get out of there. The worst thing was that she had tried three little words of English out on me and I'd told her she spoke very well! 

I know that she was just being horrible - my level in Spanish is a decent C1 and normally I have zero problems - although it's not perfect by any means - but is there EVER a moment when things like this stop happening, or if you speak with an accent or occasionally have to think of a word, people will always try to put you down?

Anyone else had something like this happen? What are your experiences?


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Six years and a C1, to be honest, it is not good. But only if you came to Spain and decided on making the effort to learn the language, i.e. going to school daily Monday to Friday from 9am to 12noon, watching Spanish TV and reading Spanish newspapers rather than the Daily Mail and Eastenders.

But then again, I know some Brits that have been in Spain for 20 odd years and they don't even have a A1 because they think they don't need it as English is the 'main' language of the world and that all Spaniards should make the effort to learn, so we can communicate with them whenever they have a problem.

But C1 in Spanish, no matter how many years you have been in Spain is much much much much much better than nothing as it shows that you have made the effort, so.... Congratulations!! 

The Bank woman was just a tosser.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JulyB said:


> For context, today I was in the bank sorting out some paperwork. All in Spanish. It took about twenty minutes, I went through it with a seemingly nice woman who helped me out with a bunch of stuff and we were having a nice chat, still in Spanish, when she asked me how long I've been here. I replied 'Six years.'
> 
> And she, very seriously, said 'Pero ¡hablas muy mal español!'
> 
> ...


Short answer is No it won't ever stop, but my experience has been 100 times more people congratulating me on my Spanish than criticising. Criticism is unavoidable even if it comes once every 10 years. Do you never look for the right word in English? Of course you do. Do you always speak perfectly in your native tongue? I bet most people don't, but once you speak another language you put yourself up for more scrutiny.
A C1 is very good and you shouldn't have any problems in communicating, although not necessarily being 100% correct. Banking, DIY, mechanics etc are specialised environments where I think we have to go prepared for not understanding everything.
I have at this point lived longer outside the UK than in. I would love to be completely bilingual and speak without a trace of an accent, but I don't, and even though I admit that it would be nice to be flawless, I accept that my Spanish language level will never reach those dizzy heights. I speak Spanish to a very high standard and I can speak in formal and informal situations. Most people can gauge this after a few minutes conversation and don't question it. I work in both languages with no problem in understanding, in being treated differently, being accepted, pay, respect whatever. My Spanish family rarely comment on my Spanish and believe me, they would if they felt it was necessary!
But,
very rarely there will be someone who will feel the need to make a comment and in my experience it's someone who for some reason is insecure in some way, of his position in a company, in a social group, in front of his kids... and it's usually a man.
It really happens very infrequently and the last one I can remember was a man at a riding school my daughter and husband went to. He told me my accent was rather thick and he was obviously surprised that after so many years here I still had an accent. I just pointed out that we were having a conversation and just as I could understand him he too could understand everything I was saying so wasn't that wonderful!
He then insisted on telling me all about his son who was studying in the UK and I suppose the idea was that his son wouldn't have to go through the wretched embarrasment of having such a hideous accent as mine, and that he was fortunate to have enough money to ensure that (my interptetation).


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Six years and a C1, to be honest, it is not good. But only if you came to Spain and decided on making the effort to learn the language, i.e. going to school daily Monday to Friday from 9am to 12noon, watching Spanish TV and reading Spanish newspapers rather than the Daily Mail and Eastenders.
> 
> But then again, I know some Brits that have been in Spain for 20 odd years and they don't even have a A1 because they think they don't need it as English is the 'main' language of the world and that all Spaniards should make the effort to learn, so we can communicate with them whenever they have a problem.
> 
> ...


A C1 is not good?
A C2 is proficient, near native level. Very, very few people get that, as you should know.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It has never happened to me, in fact people often tell me I speak good Spanish when I know perfectly well they are only being kind because it's far from the truth! However, there is one young guy who lives nearby who we are quite friendly with, and he often tells my husband very bluntly that he has lived in Spain for a long time now, and ought to be able to speak better Spanish. I find that Spanish people are often very direct in how they speak to others and blurt out things which would be unthinkable for an English person to say to another unless they were trying to be deliberately rude and hurtful, but the Spanish don't mean it that way, it's just how they are. They will tell someone they haven't seen for a while that they've put on weight, for example, or that they're looking older. I've told the story before of when my husband was trying on a fleece in a store in Málaga and a young Spanish woman we didn't know at all came up to him and asked what size it was. She said she wanted to buy one for her father who was tall like my husband, "but he is flat" she said, gesturing towards the OH's stomach! I fell about laughing.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If I'm asked if I speak Spanish I always reply cheerfully 'Yes, fluently and badly but people understand me'.
Experience and people who kindly correct my more awful mistakes are gradually bringing about improvement but me defiendo and I can get by in most situations.
Confidence is all important - fear of making mistakes and imagining you've made a fool of yourself can really knock you back. But it's this insensitive bank clerk at fault here not you. I bet you could say que se joda which is what she deserves


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes, I think it is probably just permanent part of life, or a universal thing. And yes, probably just her being an insecure tosser! It did bring me down quite a bit, because I do still feel self-conscious sometimes - I arrived here without being able to say anything and it was quite surprisingly traumatic - I'm probably still recovering. But every now and then, I feel like I've finally cracked it, and then something like this happens and I just think, why do I try!

No, I work, and in English too, so I understand that if I could afford to spend all these years going to intensive classes I'd be so much better. I meet people who have done that, and they are incredible. Sadly, I still have to eat, so it's not an option! But I do have a couple of classes a week, now that I can afford to and have no trouble at C1, I have done exams and I certainly don't watch TV or read books in English although I'll admit that I do still read the Guardian as well as El País. 

What a horrible man, Pesky. Some people are incredibly snobby.


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A C1 is not good?
> A C2 is proficient, near native level. Very, very few people get that, as you should know.


Erm.. I think I have not made myself very clear. 

A C1 is very good indeed. 

What I meant to say is that if someone goes abroad to study and learn a language, in 6 years she should have the C2, but only if she does nothing else but learn the language, socialise with the locals and do all things in that language. 

If not, then a C1 in 6 years is good enough.

Not sure why I am a 'horrible man' now... pah!


----------



## jp1 (Jun 11, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It really happens very *un*frequently and the last one I can remember was a man...


I give you a C1 in English.. Do try harder


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

'Not sure why I am a 'horrible man' now... pah!'

You're not the horrible man! The horrible man was Pesky's daughter's rude riding teacher.


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

....JulyB..... or you can do what I just did yesterday, I tend to do that often, it is good for my ego... 

I always think that my English is not good for the number of years I have spent in the UK, so yesterday when walking the dog, a couple of german guys on bikes stopped me to ask for directions to the chiringuito, we talked for a bit, and then they wanted to know why do I speak English, I say I self-taught, never went to English classes and then they all go 'wow... how impressiveeeeeeeeeeeeeee...' and there I kept walking, happy as a pig in ****.


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

JulyB said:


> 'Not sure why I am a 'horrible man' now... pah!'
> 
> You're not the horrible man! The horrible man was Pesky's daughter's rude riding teacher.


Thanks July, I feel much better now. Lol!


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

I have a C2 (DELE certified) and I have had students tell me I need to do better.

Meh. Screw 'em. (The "complainers", not the aforementioned students.)

I still count money in English. I once had a woman in a very conservative town (PW, the name starts with an S and it is a smallish fishing town near where you occasionally go) tell me to count in Spanish. I asked her if she'd prefer I count in Spanish or if she'd rather the correct amount. It shut her up.

Sent from my SM-G531F using Tapatalk


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> I have a C2 (DELE certified) and I have had students tell me I need to do better.
> 
> Meh. Screw 'em. (The "complainers", not the aforementioned students.)
> 
> ...


Hahaha.
OH has an uncle who has lived in Switzerland, Italy and the US and who speaks very good English. He says no matter how well you speak another language you always pray and count in your mother tongue. I'll have to take his word for it on the praying, but I reckon he's right on the counting

I know exactly where you mean.


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha.
> OH has an uncle who has lived in Switzerland, Italy and the US and who speaks very good English. He says no matter how well you speak another language you always pray and count in your mother tongue. I'll have to take his word for it on the praying, but I reckon he's right on the counting
> 
> I know exactly where you mean.


...I say the Lord's Prayer in English. 

He's right.

Sent from my SM-G531F using Tapatalk


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

This old thread, which is now closed, is kind of related and it is actually one of my favourites because it just full of good advice, so I'm going to stick the link in here and hope you enjoy reading through it. It's also full of "posters from the past" 
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/46571-castellano-fatigue.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JulyB said:


> Yes, I think it is probably just permanent part of life, or a universal thing. And yes, probably just her being an insecure tosser! It did bring me down quite a bit, because I do still feel self-conscious sometimes - I arrived here without being able to say anything and it was quite surprisingly traumatic - I'm probably still recovering. But every now and then, I feel like I've finally cracked it, and then something like this happens and I just think, why do I try!
> 
> No, I work, and in English too, so I understand that if I could afford to spend all these years going to intensive classes I'd be so much better. I meet people who have done that, and they are incredible. Sadly, I still have to eat, so it's not an option! But I do have a couple of classes a week, now that I can afford to and have no trouble at C1, I have done exams and I certainly don't watch TV or read books in English although I'll admit that I do still read the Guardian as well as El País.
> 
> What a horrible man, Pesky. Some people are incredibly snobby.


I *do* read in English.
Reading is relaxation and reading in Spanish is not relaxing for me. Funnily enough I don't mind watching tv or films in Spanish. Even so, in the last few years I watch far more series in English than I ever have before just because it's so easy to do now (and I suppose series have got so much better). For the first 20 years or even more I never watched tv in English as you just couldn't and it was weird when I went back to the UK and watched stuff on telly in English.


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

I only don't because it's the cheapest way to practice - not because it's necessarily relaxing! Reading and listening these days is no problem at all - I really do get almost everything, and not just the gist. Since they invented Kindles with a dictionary look-up function, my vocabulary has come on leaps and bounds. But speaking, apparently, although everyone understands me and usually seems perfectly comfortable with me, is perhaps not going quite as well as I had assumed.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Early on when we had just had a few lessons my OH said para tu instead of para ti and received a withering put-down from a Spanish woman. It knocked her back and kept her back - she never regained her confidence and frankly didn't bother after that.

It's happened to me as well. In a bank I said a number wrong (not really wrong actually just not to convention - like an American saying 'one hundred fifty' instead of 'one hundred AND fifty') and the same thing happened - not just a correction which I wouldn't have minded but a disdainful put-down. It didn't bother me, being thick skinned.

The English are well used to having their language mangled by foreigners and just tend get on with it - not so with some Spanish obviously. I can't imagine many English scornfully correcting a minor infringement or telling a foreign speaker that their English was crap.

We have a relative whose first language is not English but she has lived and worked in the UK for 40 years and has an English husband and son and frankly her English is appalling. Never bothers using tenses and her poor pronunciation makes her difficult to understand and rather painful to listen to. I can't imagine anyone ever telling her that though.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Early on when we had just had a few lessons my OH said para tu instead of para ti and received a withering put-down from a Spanish woman. It knocked her back and kept her back - she never regained her confidence and frankly didn't bother after that.
> 
> It's happened to me as well. In a bank I said a number wrong (not really wrong actually just not to convention - like an American saying 'one hundred fifty' instead of 'one hundred AND fifty') and the same thing happened - not just a correction which I wouldn't have minded but a disdainful put-down. It didn't bother me, being thick skinned.
> 
> ...


People are always very pleasant when I make mistakes...Maybe it's because I'm such a dear, sweet old lady...
And I make awful mistakes. Once when addressing a CCOO conference in Huelva I said 'European penises' instead of European laws. (I was talking about standardisation). There were just a few titters.
Quite often people correct me, very nicely. I always thank them for being my Spanish teacher for the day. That usually goes down well.
I have a stuck up franquista conocida from Madrid I see now and then for coffee and she gets quite sniffy when I say things like pa ti, he comprao or mi mare. But I have learnt by listening to people around me, in ADANA, in PSOE, in Arco Iris...and that's what I hear.
Besides, as in English, it's easy to do what I call 'lazy talk'. Like the French leaving out part of the double negative and saying 'je sais pas'.
Not a hanging offence.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> People are always very pleasant when I make mistakes...Maybe it's because I'm such a dear, sweet old lady...


... or maybe they're frightened of you.:bolt:


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This old thread, which is now closed, is kind of related and it is actually one of my favourites because it just full of good advice, so I'm going to stick the link in here and hope you enjoy reading through it. It's also full of "posters from the past"
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/46571-castellano-fatigue.html


I don't know why it was closed. I must admit I had forgotten it and just had to read all the way through. I think it would be a good idea to get it going again.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Old dormant threads are closed manually by us mods when we have time. Info changes & sometimes sneaky advertisers resurrect old threads to 'recommend' a service 


Neither apply to this though, so I've reopened the old one & merged the two together


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I think that, for many of us, some kind of incentive is needed, maybe a target to reach, a need to do something in particular. My own Spanish is very poor, partly because SWMBO is fluent so I have little need to speak. However I can read and understand most written Spanish. But hearing and understanding the spoken Spanish is, for me, a little more difficult due, in part, to my traumatic deafness - I often do not hear nor understand when somebody is speaking to me in English. I could use hearing aids (I have them) but the noise levels here are too great and the dogs barking has me hitting the ceiling (same with fireworks!)

So back to incentive. I think one has to identify what one wishes to achieve and work towards that, rather than trying to achieve total fluency in all parts of Spanish. I wanted to read a book about the cousin of one of our next-door neighbours who was something of a celebrity during the Civil War and has been described as something of a modern-day Robin Hood. So I did, with a little help from a dictionary when I could not identify a meaning from the context.

I usually don't have too much difficulty understanding the locals and their particular dialect of Andalu' but, sometimes, I have problems with somebody from Madrid or Barcelona.


----------



## orangeokie (Mar 27, 2016)

Back in the day, as a young Marine in Rota Spain, I had a very important reason to learn Spanish . . . a girl!!!:heh: I enrolled in the university of Maryland (on base) and had a native Spaniard as a professor, which is the way to go IMO. I spent most of my time expanding my verb vocabulary and conjugating them on paper. It worked, because I convinced that young señorita to marry me and now I tell people I have learned a few more Spanish words after sleeping with a Spanish girl for 42 years.

The moral of the story is you have to have a strong reason to learn Spanish; preferably you learn it from a native teacher who knows all the little nuances of the language (that's what endears "gringos" to the native Spaniards when you can slip one into your conversation); and you need to hang out with Spanish friends and acquaintances to practice, and ask them to correct you when you make a mistake.


----------



## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Lynn R said:


> It has never happened to me, in fact people often tell me I speak good Spanish when I know perfectly well they are only being kind because it's far from the truth! However, there is one young guy who lives nearby who we are quite friendly with, and he often tells my husband very bluntly that he has lived in Spain for a long time now, and ought to be able to speak better Spanish. I find that Spanish people are often very direct in how they speak to others and blurt out things which would be unthinkable for an English person to say to another unless they were trying to be deliberately rude and hurtful, but the Spanish don't mean it that way, it's just how they are. They will tell someone they haven't seen for a while that they've put on weight, for example, or that they're looking older. I've told the story before of when my husband was trying on a fleece in a store in Málaga and a young Spanish woman we didn't know at all came up to him and asked what size it was. She said she wanted to buy one for her father who was tall like my husband, "but he is flat" she said, gesturing towards the OH's stomach! I fell about laughing.





Lolito said:


> Six years and a C1, to be honest, it is not good. But only if you came to Spain and decided on making the effort to learn the language, i.e. going to school daily Monday to Friday from 9am to 12noon, watching Spanish TV and reading Spanish newspapers rather than the Daily Mail and Eastenders.
> 
> But then again, I know some Brits that have been in Spain for 20 odd years and they don't even have a A1 because they think they don't need it as English is the 'main' language of the world and that all Spaniards should make the effort to learn, so we can communicate with them whenever they have a problem.
> 
> ...


I think you're both touching on something similar that is probably more than language, the part that is hardest to get used to in Spain and most non-Anglo countries.

I know British people and even more so Americans have unwritten societal rules about what is and isn't polite to say in normal conversation with strangers or even friends. In other countries, Spain DEFINITELY, not being the only one, these rules just don't apply. I have a personal theory that that is why its sometimes difficult for British and American people to get along with say a Russian or German. They just don't have the same ideas about what is impolite to say in a blunt way. Its not rudeness, it's just societal norms. 

As many others are saying (and I'm only about B1) even when I personally qualify and apologize for my bad Spanish a Spanish person will respond that no, in fact I speak spanish quite well. 

I think it's the harsher more blunt comments that just stick in our minds. I remember being in a hotel in Malaga and I didn't understand what the front desk receptionist was saying so she immediately switched to English. We had a little conversation in which I told her I lived in Barcelona. She asked how long I told her a little over a year. She said: but how? Your spanish should be MUCH better by now! 

Now despite how many times Ive been told my Spanish is good and improving by native speakers, this one experience sticks out in my mind for some reason.


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

orangeokie said:


> Back in the day, as a young Marine in Rota Spain, I had a very important reason to learn Spanish . . . a girl!!!:heh: I enrolled in the university of Maryland (on base) and had a native Spaniard as a professor, which is the way to go IMO. I spent most of my time expanding my verb vocabulary and conjugating them on paper. It worked, because I convinced that young señorita to marry me and now I tell people I have learned a few more Spanish words after sleeping with a Spanish girl for 42 years.
> 
> The moral of the story is *you have to have a strong reason to learn Spanish*; preferably you learn it from a native teacher who knows all the little nuances of the language (that's what endears "gringos" to the native Spaniards when you can slip one into your conversation); and you need to hang out with Spanish friends and acquaintances to practice, and ask them to correct you when you make a mistake.


You move to Spain, you learn the lingo. No more 'stronger' reason than that.

Or at least, made the effort to learn. 

Last year, on another forum, I got in touch with a couple who wanted to move to Spain and start a new life here, both in their early 30s. A few months later they moved to Spain. We met a few times. 

On Facebook I kept seeing their posts about how great life in Spain is, going to Brit bars, having parties at other Brits' houses, going to Brits little markets, raffles, pub quizzes, having lunches and dinners at British places all round the place and well, having a jolly good time! 

They have been in Spain now for 8 months or so. Last week we went out for lunch with them, we took them to a Spanish restaurant, quite well known in the area, but they didn't like anything off the menus, they wanted a cup of tea with their food, they kept moaning about everything from the waiter to the menu (that was all written in Spanish). 

When I asked them how was their Spanish Classes, they looked at me in horror, as in saying 'What Spanish classes?', they said they don't have any classes as they get by perfectly fine in English and well... to cut a long story short, it really made me angry, as they are quite young and prefer the usual 'guetto' and anything that is not English/British, is not good enough for them. 

Are they going to spend all of their life around other brits? eating British food/dishes? Going to Brits pub quizzes? and watching British TV and reading What's on TV ? 

I despair. I really do.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lolito said:


> You move to Spain, you learn the lingo. No more 'stronger' reason than that.
> 
> Or at least, made the effort to learn.
> 
> ...


Plenty do just that..........

I totally understand older people who struggle & maybe give up more easily - memory is a tricky thing as you get older (though I teach a nearly 70 year old who has mastered my beginner course (equal to GCSE) in just 6 months & is moving onto my intermediate level)

For those in their 30s 40s & 50s though - they should have little problem learning if they choose to.


----------



## orangeokie (Mar 27, 2016)

Lynn R said:


> . . . I find that Spanish people are often very direct in how they speak to others and blurt out things which would be unthinkable for an English person to say to another unless they were trying to be deliberately rude and hurtful, but the Spanish don't mean it that way, it's just how they are. *They will tell someone they haven't seen for a while that they've put on weight, for example*, . . .


Telling someone they have put on weight is a compliment. This custom goes back to the depression era in Spain where the people were starving and eating "seaweed soup" to survive (like my mother-in-law told me.) If someone says you are plump, that is an indication you have plenty to eat and are doing great.

Sometimes I find myself interpreting Spanish in my English understanding rather than Spanish axioms.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Lolito said:


> You move to Spain, you learn the lingo. No more 'stronger' reason than that.
> 
> Or at least, made the effort to learn.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about it - it's up to them. 

It's the same with the Polish people (immigrants in the last few years) where I live in England. They are very nice friendly people but their English isn't brilliant, they party at each others' houses and generally stick to their own and don't mix.

It doesn't bother me one jot.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

orangeokie said:


> Telling someone they have put on weight is a compliment. This custom goes back to the depression era in Spain where the people were starving and eating "seaweed soup" to survive (like my mother-in-law told me.) If someone says you are plump, that is an indication you have plenty to eat and are doing great.
> 
> Sometimes I find myself interpreting Spanish in my English understanding rather than Spanish axioms.


I don't think you'd find many British men calling their wife or girlfriend "gorda" (or the English equivalent) as an affectionate form of address.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> You move to Spain, you learn the lingo. No more 'stronger' reason than that.
> 
> Or at least, made the effort to learn.
> Are they going to spend all of their life around other brits? eating British food/dishes? Going to Brits pub quizzes? and watching British TV and reading What's on TV ?
> ...


You moved to England and you learned the lingo. That doesn't mean that other people are going to do the same in your country of birth.
Are they going to spend all their lives around other Brits doing Brit things? Probably. Plenty people have and plenty of people are doing it right now. 
My opinion? If they are happy and the native population around them are too, and also they're not doing any harm (to the environment, to the local economy...) then leave 'em to it.There seem to be quite a few areas where this works, others where it's not so successful. 
One thing I do not like is when people choose to live in a British environment in Spain and then moan about the Spanish aspect of life ie I don't like Spanish food, they don't speak English in the bank/ doctor's/ supermarket/ town hall, the shop shuts in the middle of the day, nowhere serves fish n' chips and you can't get a decent cup of tea anywhere.
Yep, that will get on my nerves


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *orangeokie *Telling someone they have put on weight is a compliment. This custom goes back to the depression era in Spain where the people were starving and eating "seaweed soup" to survive (like my mother-in-law told me.) If someone says you are plump, that is an indication you have plenty to eat and are doing great.


Yes, for my 89 year old MIL's generation that's right, but for a 25 year old saying it to my 22 year old daughter I think the references to the "Good Old Days" which would be to the Civil War here, are wearing a bit thin now


----------



## jp1 (Jun 11, 2011)

I have to admit my Spanish is very poor, but then I don't and have never lived in the country. Ducks head..... However, my wife is Spanish and we have been together 18 years. Yes I am a little embarrassed about the fact that my Spanish should be a lot better. However, when I look at my wife's Spanish family and other Spanish friends by and large they have never left Spain or if they have visited another country, it was once and didn't like it.

I know it's a very wide generalisation, but excluding young Spaniards the vast majority don't travel, or certainly don't travel widely. So I would never be ashamed to be pulled up by someone who's horizons don't extend beyond the borders of Spain, especially when one has taken the plunge and exposed oneself to the risks of moving to another country.


----------



## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

I joined the 'free' classes' provided by our local Town Hall. The class was full of English people, and whilst these classes helped, I asked the tutor what other other classes were available in the small Adult Learning Centre.

There were history classes, art classes and IT classes (none of these interested me) so I ended up attending the numeracy/literacy classes..... what a joy!!!!

The class was attended by the old ladies in the village, and they literally took me 'under their wings'. The literacy class involved a spelling test......I was always top of the class in this one and could never understand how the ladies could not distinguish between the v and the b. However initially I did not understand the words I was writing.

We would be given text of around 100 words and had to put in commas and full stops. Really difficult for me initially since I could not understand the sense of the test. 

I have always been very good at maths, but when a teacher is verbally giving you numbers to add up in Spanish, I found this very challenging.

So in a way, we were all at the same level, but for different reasons. Plus I had the added bonus of having to converse at a personal level, with the old ladies helping me with my conversation and eventually me helping them with their math.

My Spanish vastly improved to a level far higher than those that attending the Spanish classes.

Whilst my Spanish is no way fluent, and attending classes to learn Spanish is recommended, sometimes, in my view, it is better to just 'throw yourself in at the deep end' and find an activity that you enjoy.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chica22 said:


> I joined the 'free' classes' provided by our local Town Hall. The class was full of English people, and whilst these classes helped, I asked the tutor what other other classes were available in the small Adult Learning Centre.
> 
> There were history classes, art classes and IT classes (none of these interested me) so I ended up attending the numeracy/literacy classes..... what a joy!!!!
> 
> ...


What a great idea! I have often recommended that people do other courses at their town hall, but had never thought of the numeracy and literacy classes. Well done to you for taking the plunge!


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You moved to England and you learned the lingo. That doesn't mean that other people are going to do the same in your country of birth.
> Are they going to spend all their lives around other Brits doing Brit things? Probably. Plenty people have and plenty of people are doing it right now.
> My opinion? If they are happy and the native population around them are too, and also they're not doing any harm (to the environment, to the local economy...) then leave 'em to it.There seem to be quite a few areas where this works, others where it's not so successful.
> *One thing I do not like is when people choose to live in a British environment in Spain and then moan about the Spanish aspect of life ie I don't like Spanish food, they don't speak English in the bank/ doctor's/ supermarket/ town hall, the shop shuts in the middle of the day, nowhere serves fish n' chips and you can't get a decent cup of tea anywhere.*
> Yep, that will get on my nerves


Well, I might be unlike but most of the Brits I have met around here are those ones! Only yesterday we met a woman while out shopping, she used to show us around when we were looking for a house (estate agent) and she said she spent all day with a German couple but in the end they said they were not interested in this area as it is 'very spanish'... lol! 

Here I am thinking, if you move to another country, what do you expect?


----------



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I stopped smoking last year and I have put on weight like 2 or 3 stones now, I have never seen my mum so happy, she even goes around town telling people I am fat.... 

pah!


----------



## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You moved to England and you learned the lingo. That doesn't mean that other people are going to do the same in your country of birth.
> Are they going to spend all their lives around other Brits doing Brit things? Probably. Plenty people have and plenty of people are doing it right now.
> My opinion? If they are happy and the native population around them are too, and also they're not doing any harm (to the environment, to the local economy...) then leave 'em to it.There seem to be quite a few areas where this works, others where it's not so successful.
> One thing I do not like is when people choose to live in a British environment in Spain and then moan about the Spanish aspect of life ie I don't like Spanish food, they don't speak English in the bank/ doctor's/ supermarket/ town hall, the shop shuts in the middle of the day, nowhere serves fish n' chips and you can't get a decent cup of tea anywhere.
> Yep, that will get on my nerves


Oh my goodness I am SO on you with this. Oddly enough I have very little experience with British people in Spain. Perhaps as an American I already feel a bit looked down upon by them so I don't seek them out. In my experience Swedish people are AWFUL about this in Spain. When I initially moved here I had two Swedish friends visit and I was horrified how blatantly culturally insensitive they were about Spain. They acted like it was some kind of service backwater because was everything doesn't run so smoothly as in Sweden. Perhaps because I know people think Americans are horrible abroad I overcompensate. I really just cannot stand when people judge cultures through the lens of their own country. I constantly feel lucky to live in Spain and when there is a tiny annoyance I remind myself of all the beautiful things about this culture I get to experience.


----------

