# Different pré-nom



## JayBee1

Hello. My husband is applying thru CPAM for ouverture des droits. They're asking him for documents I never needed to get mine(successfully on first try). The real issue is his bilingual birth certificate has "Ronald", but his passport, visa etc has "Ron".

They are asking for:
la copie lisable de votre acte de naissance avec le prénom Ron ou un jugement attestation du changement de prénom de Ronald en Ron.
He never changed his name...it just 'is'
Any ideas on how to accomplish this. 

Also, he has a number that starts with a 1, and many 9s. Is this a provisoir?

Many thanks 




"


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## Bevdeforges

Sometimes in dealing with the French administration you just have explain to them (ideally in French if possible) that "things are different" where you come from and that you are unable to provide the document they ask for. It takes some time, lots of patience and maintaining your calm while explaining the situation. Basically, you need to ask them their advice, given that the document they are asking for does not exist, cannot be gotten and that "Ron" is a common "raccourci" for Ronald - and yes, that the UK often allows citizens to go by their shortened nick names on official documents.

Oh, and his sécu number is just fine - the 1 as a first digit signifies that he is male (2 is for us females) and at least one of the 99 combinations just indicates that he was born outside of France.


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## JayBee1

Thanks Bev. Would this be best done in a RDV or over the phone?


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## Crabtree

This is a classic post illustrating yet again the way in which some countries deal with ID .In France in dealing with ID everything is required to be same ie the name on your birth certificate the name on your ID card the name on your passport.This is one reason why a married french woman generally keeps her "nom de jeune fille" In some other countries and I am specifically thinking of the UK although of course, it may well apply to others, the requirement for documentation to match up is yet another example of the" hated red tape". So anyone can call themselves anything and as a result you can end up with a situation where a passport can be issued bearing the "incorrect" name that does not match up with accompanying documentation .My every day name is a diminutive of my given name(as your husbands is) but on all official documentation I use my full given name.It is a prime example of the French way of thinking They all know you need to have a paper trail but often Brits regard it as superfluous It is a reflection on the way the society works 
You probably need to throw yourself on the mercy of the CPAM system but you could well end up facing this same situation again with another organisation


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## Bevdeforges

JayBee1 said:


> Thanks Bev. Would this be best done in a RDV or over the phone?


Probably a RDV - I know dealing in a foreign language over the phone can be really frustrating so I tend to prefer face to face with these sorts of things (so they can see that you're not just spinning them a line). Be prepared to offer them whatever alternatives you can think of (i.e. documents that validate the same birthdate, place of birth, parents' names - whatever there is on the birth certificate - using his shortened first name). I've managed to talk them through these sorts of things in the past. Just make it very clear that you're trying to be "helpful" to them.


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## JayBee1

Thank you. We will do what we can. At least we're from Canada and the documents are bilingual! 
Small mercies. ;-)


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## JayBee1

Bevdeforges said:


> Sometimes in dealing with the French administration you just have explain to them (ideally in French if possible) that "things are different" where you come from and that you are unable to provide the document they ask for. It takes some time, lots of patience and maintaining your calm while explaining the situation. Basically, you need to ask them their advice, given that the document they are asking for does not exist, cannot be gotten and that "Ron" is a common "raccourci" for Ronald - and yes, that the UK often allows citizens to go by their shortened nick names on official documents.
> 
> Oh, and his sécu number is just fine - the 1 as a first digit signifies that he is male (2 is for us females) and at least one of the 99 combinations just indicates that he was born outside of France.


Bev, what if the 13 numbers are all 9's...except the 1,,of course.


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## Bevdeforges

JayBee1 said:


> Bev, what if the 13 numbers are all 9's...except the 1,,of course.


Um, that sounds like you have a "sample" number. The format for a sécu number is 1 (for male) or 2 (for female), then the last two digits of your year of birth, then the number for your month of birth, then the number of the département in which you were born (with 99 for everyone born outside of France), then an actual identification number, and the last two digits are a check sum.


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## JayBee1

Thanks. For the first 2 letters they sent, there was no number. I'm hoping it's a slight move in the right direction!


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## ccm47

Crabtree said:


> This is a classic post illustrating yet again the way in which some countries deal with ID .In France in dealing with ID everything is required to be same ie the name on your birth certificate the name on your ID card the name on your passport.This is one reason why a married french woman generally keeps her "nom de jeune fille" In some other countries and I am specifically thinking of the UK although of course, it may well apply to others, the requirement for documentation to match up is yet another example of the" hated red tape". So anyone can call themselves anything and as a result you can end up with a situation where a passport can be issued bearing the "incorrect" name that does not match up with accompanying documentation .My every day name is a diminutive of my given name(as your husbands is) but on all official documentation I use my full given name.It is a prime example of the French way of thinking They all know you need to have a paper trail but often Brits regard it as superfluous It is a reflection on the way the society works
> You probably need to throw yourself on the mercy of the CPAM system but you could well end up facing this same situation again with another organisation


So true but if you think the British way of recording identity is a little "relaxed" you should see the Irish!
When gathering ID documents for CPAM my OH and I got to see our long birth certificates for the first time ever. My cert showed the wrong middle name for my mother.The UK Registry Office refused to change it without proof from her birth certificate, saying that was what they'd have been told at the time. The only cert I had for her was a baptismal one so I duly got it but it was of no help (see below).
Come Brexit I wanted to apply for Irish citizenship and was granted it with no problem despite the fact that her formal birth certificate had not been applied for for 11 months after her birth, the only recorded name was the one her parents used and there was a different date of birth. Only the surname and address matched!
As the birth had been registered by my grandfather I suspect that he had only gone to the registry office because his son, my uncle, had been born and he couldn't remember his older daughter's details: she was only a girl and so not important to him.


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## Bevdeforges

Goes to show that things get screwed up on official documents in all countries. When I went to get a copy of my birth certificate (in the US) - something I'd had before, but needed a fresh copy - I discovered that the county of my birth had "digitized" its birth records and in the process had misspelled my family name (basically just dropped a letter). I had to send the new "computerized" certificate back, asking that the record be corrected.

A couple weeks later, I received in the mail an "old fashioned" copy of my original birth certificate, duly certified just like they used to do. I guess it was too much effort to go back and correct the new version. But I have managed to "explain" other omissions and errors in official documents. As you can see, it happens all the time and in all countries.


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## JayBee1

Update. We sent 8 more documents with both Ron and Ronald. And voila !! Ouverture des droits! Maybe it was his perfect attendance certificate in bowling from the 70's that did it!! ;-)


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## Nunthewiser

I hope we don't have an issue somewhere along the way. My wife's middle (patronymic) name is "Petrovna" in Russian (which is on her Russian BC, her passport, our marriage licence- everythin). When she got a fresh Ukrainian one, The patronymic is now tranliterated into "Petrivna", the Ukrainian form of the same thing. We are about to get a fresh passport and could correct it into the Ukraiian form, but then that would conflict with our marriage license which has "Petrovna". Since our marriage license is going to be key to her getting a CdS (I am an Italian so her getting a CdS is reliant on the marriage license), I think I am just going to leave it alone on her new passport.


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## Bevdeforges

With all the "current events" in the news these days, I think it should be simple (when the time comes) to explain that the transliteration of Russian varies a bit from that of Ukrainian. (Think Kiev vs. Kyiv) And even then, the romanization/tranliteration varies quite a bit if you're dealing with the French vs. English speaking countries (Putin vs. Poutine). It will make for an interesting conversation with someone in the prefecture - but shouldn't cause any real problems.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> With all the "current events" in the news these days, I think it should be simple (when the time comes) to explain that the transliteration of Russian varies a bit from that of Ukrainian. (Think Kiev vs. Kyiv) And even then, the romanization/tranliteration varies quite a bit if you're dealing with the French vs. English speaking countries (Putin vs. Poutine). It will make for an interesting conversation with someone in the prefecture - but shouldn't cause any real problems.


If we just leave it alone, her passport will match our marriage certificate, so the prefecture should be happy (theoretically her birth certificate is not required there, though they COULD ask). The issue might be CPAM where they could see that small difference between birth certificate and passport. Also, ANTS. But fixing it on her passport causes problems at the prefecture. Of course, we can explain it, (and her parents, dates, places all check out) but everytime it gets rejected when you can only "throw it over the wall" costs time and money.


Bevdeforges said:


> Goes to show that things get screwed up on official documents in all countries. When I went to get a copy of my birth certificate (in the US) - something I'd had before, but needed a fresh copy - I discovered that the county of my birth had "digitized" its birth records and in the process had misspelled my family name (basically just dropped a letter). I had to send the new "computerized" certificate back, asking that the record be corrected.
> 
> A couple weeks later, I received in the mail an "old fashioned" copy of my original birth certificate, duly certified just like they used to do. I guess it was too much effort to go back and correct the new version. But I have managed to "explain" other omissions and errors in official documents. As you can see, it happens all the time and in all countries.


A propos of this, in the "stuff happens" category, we knew we would be moving to France and would be asked for fresh copies of our birth certificates. My Ukrainian wife only had a copy of her 60 year old USSR birth certificate and we were pretty sure that would not satisfy the French (though, surprisingly, it was never a problem for US citizenship, passport etc even in the late 90s). She got a new Ukrainian one and found out that the registrar had left off the final vowel "a" on her surname, giving her the same name as her father, which was NOT the convention. However, the copy she got at the time included the "a" so her "on the registry" name didn't match the name she had used all her life. She made a special trip last May (right after her second COVID shot) and got it fixed (they added the "a" in the registry book) over there. It's a lucky thing because her comune is just north of Mikolayiv, and was overrun by the Russians (back in Ukrainian control now). I don't think it was damaged much as it is a few km off the main highway, but doing the same thing now would be...well, I don't think you can.


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## Bevdeforges

At this point, I wouldn't worry too much about those sorts of details. There are always issues with documents in languages that have to be transliterated or Romanized or whatever. And even in France they're aware of the sorts of "difficulties" and problems in Ukraine. The French fonctionnaires aren't the heartless bureaucrats some folks make them out to be. You can always explain to them what the situation is and in most circumstances you'll be able to work something out.


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## Chrissippus

ccm47 said:


> So true but if you think the British way of recording identity is a little "relaxed" you should see the Irish!
> When gathering ID documents for CPAM my OH and I got to see our long birth certificates for the first time ever. My cert showed the wrong middle name for my mother.The UK Registry Office refused to change it without proof from her birth certificate, saying that was what they'd have been told at the time. The only cert I had for her was a baptismal one so I duly got it but it was of no help (see below).
> Come Brexit I wanted to apply for Irish citizenship and was granted it with no problem despite the fact that her formal birth certificate had not been applied for for 11 months after her birth, the only recorded name was the one her parents used and there was a different date of birth. Only the surname and address matched!
> As the birth had been registered by my grandfather I suspect that he had only gone to the registry office because his son, my uncle, had been born and he couldn't remember his older daughter's details: she was only a girl and so not important to him.


This is of interest to me, since I have applied for citizenship documents from the Irish Registry of Foreign Births. My mothers long form birth certificate lists her given name as "Bridget," but immediately from birth she was called "Delia." All of her subsequent documents, such as US Naturalization, marriage certificate, and my own birth certificate references only "Delia." I don't expect a problem, since my brother has already got his Irish citizenship based on the same documents.

The story in the family is that it was common for the Irish to drop the registered given for another shortly after birth. Go figure.


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