# FYI C.C. Fraud at restaurants



## ReyMiguel (Mar 21, 2013)

FYI to all new expats in Mexico, when paying with c.c. always ask for the c.c. machine don't give the c.c. to the waiter to take it behind the counter to do the charge. We just went to our local Chillis in Lerma we felt very comfortable by being at an American Restaurant. The waiter took my c.c. I paid and a week later my c.c. company contacted me about some suspicious charges, about 4500 USD of charges all over the city of Mexico.

You can never be to careful, hope this help you.


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## MJB5293 (Feb 26, 2009)

good advice always even in the USA


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

ReyMiguel said:


> FYI to all new expats in Mexico, when paying with c.c. always ask for the c.c. machine don't give the c.c. to the waiter to take it behind the counter to do the charge. We just went to our local Chillis in Lerma we felt very comfortable by being at an American Restaurant. The waiter took my c.c. I paid and a week later my c.c. company contacted me about some suspicious charges, about 4500 USD of charges all over the city of Mexico.
> 
> You can never be to careful, hope this help you.


People have paid at Chili's with credit/debit cards without problem. You were unlucky. You might sign up for alerts on foreign charges. I have a credit card with a low limit. As soon as the purchase is posted, I go to the Internet site and transfer funds from my checking to pay off the credit card.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

I am relying on my credit cards less and less, after going through the fraud investigation process several times since moving to Mexico. Even the company which does importing from the U.S. must have had a larcenous employee. The most amusing incident involved my supposedly buying 400 pairs of "Crocs" shoes from a brick and mortar store in Colorado. HUH? These charges were all dropped, but the process of getting rid of them is a real PITA.

There are good reasons why Mexico operates primarily on cash. I'll never use a credit card in a restaurant.......anywhere, these days.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

We also use cash from ATMs, rather than a credit card in Mexico, due to the frequency of stolen card numbers. Generally, the entire credit card number is printed on the receipt and is available to the clerk, even after you have left the store. On rare occasions, like buying a refrigerator or car, we make phone contact between the merchant and our card issuer, to insure that the special purchase is the only one approved.
I cannot recommend that you use a credit card in Mexico.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> Generally, the entire credit card number is printed on the receipt and is available to the clerk, even after you have left the store.


With BofA, my debit card is cut off when I try to make a large purchase. If fact, I tried to buy a refrigerator and the card was frozen and I had to call BofA to unfreeze it and to get them to permit the purchase. From that time forward, I use the debit only at ATMs. I have a Mexican debit card that carries a small balance so if stolen or compromised, little is lost. I use it only at supermarkets and big name stores. Never restaurants or bars. Cash is so secure.

Lastly, the receipts that I have received for charges only print the last four digits.

Mexican banks and stores now issue and accept credit/debit cards with embedded chips where you have to input the PIN in order to complete a purchase. However, they still can be used over the Internet with the 3 digit code on the reverse side.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I made an assumption but did not state the fact that we do not have, or want, a Mexican bank account or associated cards. We have used our US bank since 1959 and have found no need to consider another in our decade-plus residence in Mexico.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


ReyMiguel said:



FYI to all new expats in Mexico, when paying with c.c. always ask for the c.c. machine don't give the c.c. to the waiter to take it behind the counter to do the charge. We just went to our local Chillis in Lerma we felt very comfortable by being at an American Restaurant. The waiter took my c.c. I paid and a week later my c.c. company contacted me about some suspicious charges, about 4500 USD of charges all over the city of Mexico.

You can never be to careful, hope this help you.

Click to expand...

_For those who do not know this, companies such as Chilis or Coca Cola or WalMart in Mexico are not U.S. companies - they are_ Mexican _companies partially owned by U.S. companies. They abide by Mexican rules including, if you will remember, exploiting historic sites as did the entity WalMart de Mexico through shameless and repulsive bribery when desecrating ancient vistas predating western historically recorded time at Teotihuacan where WalMart´s stupendous bribes paid for a big box store within what was, before that, considered the sacred visionary plain of the city so ancient nobody even knows who built it including the latecoming Aztecs who built Mexico City. As is typical in Mexico, there was much suffering accompanying the desecration of ancient sites by corporate moneygrubbers complicit with corrupt officials but, as we all know, the protests soon died down and WalMart and Coca Cola are selling products as fast as they can be re-supplied in that store . Meanwhile, the protests regarding the desecration of ancient holy sites have been reduced to an indiscernable murmer.

Welcome to Mexico. Or for that matter, Hounddog´s native Alabama and Citlali´s native France. The only problem with Eath is that it is inhabited, at present at least, by too may humans.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

On the subject of the need for credit cards in Mexico - or in France or the U.S. for that matter- we have had not even _one _credit card during the last decade here as residents in Mexico and as frequent visitors to France and rare visitors to the U.S. We get by with cash and debit cards on one U.S. bank and two Mexican banks for all of our needs including hotel and airline reservations. We wouldn´t dream of using anything but cash to pay in restaurants or anyplace else except for big ticket appliances when we might pay for something like a flat screen TV or refrigerator at a reputable department store . Among good reasons to have Mexican bank accounts is that we pay all utility bills through a Mexican bank account - an absolutely free service - and we make "interbancario" transfer payments to compensate employees in Chiapas who manage our home down there in our absence while we are at Lake Chapala and our employees at Lake Chapala when we are in Chiapas - also totally free of charge using our home computers. 

By the way, our bank accounts in Mexico are absolutely service charge free with small minimum balances of under the equivalent of $200USD which is peanuts.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> By the way, our bank accounts in Mexico are absolutely service charge free with small minimum balances of under the equivalent of $200USD which is peanuts.


Got ya beat, Hound Dog. My Mexican bank requires a minimum balance of 1000 pesos, which at the current exchange rate is about 75 US dollars.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Isla Verde said:



Got ya beat, Hound Dog. My Mexican bank requires a minimum balance of 1000 pesos, which at the current exchange rate is about 75 US dollars.

Click to expand...

_Hold on, Isla; you mean your Mexican bank requires a minimum balance of the equivalent of $75USD and mine an equivalent of about $150USD at today´s exchange rates? Yes! but did you get a free ice cream cone and a card saying you were a _PREFERRED CUSTOMER _just because you were a foreign "honky" as did I? Our mutual friend Citlali was really offended when they decided to open those Preferred Customer Units, and they touted them with the notion that employees in those units were bi-lingual in both Spanish and English. As a French citizen, she wanted to know why these folks were not fluent in French as well as in, "Preferred Customer my *ss!" I assured her that I would join her on her trips to the bank to translate for her if need be. She´s used to my sense of humor so, despite my little joke, we are still married. 

I was in Bancomer in Ajijic Centro the other day just after they had closed that _PREFERRED CUSTOMER´S UNIT _ they only opened a year or so ago on the Ajijic Libramiento which turned out to be a marketing disaster and money mop. A bank branch with no cash but set up merely to provide an ATM and investment advice to, mostly, penurious foreign retirees who moved to Ajijic because they had scant money to invest anyway. They should have opened that branch in Palm Beach if they were seeking to serve people not subsisting on social security benefits and casita rentals.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Hold on, Isla; you mean your Mexican bank requires a minimum balance of the equivalent of $75USD and mine an equivalent of about $150USD at today´s exchange rates? Yes! but did you get a free ice cream cone and a card saying you were a _PREFERRED CUSTOMER _just because you were a foreign "honky" as did I? Our mutual friend Citlali was really offended when they decided to open those Preferred Customer Units, and they touted them with the notion that employees in those units were bi-lingual in both Spanish and English. As a French citizen, she wanted to know why these folks were not fluent in French as well as in, "Preferred Customer my *ss!" I assured her that I would join her on her trips to the bank to translate for her if need be. She´s used to my sense of humor so, despite my little joke, we are still married.
> 
> 
> > No, Hound Dog, no free ice cream or even a packet of mints, and I can't use the preferred customer line either. But since the Santander branch I use is only a five minute walk from my house, if the line is too long, I can just go home and come back later or the next day.
> ...


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## mr_manny (Nov 22, 2013)

I never encountered an issue, when using my CC in Mexico...during vacation (currently still in the US).
Both fraud claims I've encountered over the years, were associated with US transactions.

My CC companies have always processed my claims efficiently without an issues...even after months without reporting a fraud claim.

Two of my friends have shared their experiences regarding hoops they had to jump through (due to debt-card fraud claims). Both claims required a min. of one month, before funds were returned to their accounts.

For this reason, I would always prefer to use a CC over a debt card.
When you use a CC, it's the banks money...when you use a debt-card, it's your money.

Having to wait 30days for the bank to process your claim, before returning your funds gets old very quickly...


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## mr_manny (Nov 22, 2013)

I have heard Mexican CC companies don't offer the same service as US companies...
I've heard customers/clients getting stuck with fraudulent charges, for example.

Is this true?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Mexican credit cards should be avoided, in my opinion. Interest rates can be higher than you can imagine, for starters, and they are not at all similar in service or protection to what you had in the USA.
Keep your USA card and debit card and keep your banking in the USA. I have had no need for anything else in over a decade in Mexico.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=mr_manny;2467785]I never encountered an issue, when using my CC in Mexico...during vacation (currently still in the US).
Both fraud claims I've encountered over the years, were associated with US transactions.

My CC companies have always processed my claims efficiently without an issues...even after months without reporting a fraud claim.

Two of my friends have shared their experiences regarding hoops they had to jump through (due to debt-card fraud claims). Both claims required a min. of one month, before funds were returned to their accounts.

For this reason, I would always prefer to use a CC over a debt card.
*When you use a CC, it's the banks money...when you use a debt-card, it's your money.*

Having to wait 30days for the bank to process your claim, before returning your funds gets old very quickly...[/QUOTE]_

The notion that transactions inititated with debit cards are your money and with credit cards is the bank´s money ia a faulty concept if there ever was one and, in my opinion, a stance often taken by people with whom I would not wish to do business . If the debit or credit card holder and end user has any problems recovering fraudulent charges almost instantaneously, - they are using the wrong financial institution. VISA and MASTERCARD are simply transactional media companies. Your personal financial institution is your plug into the system and always remember that. I have done business with Charles Schwab in the U.S. for some 15 years and if I dispute _any_ charge against my debit cards (I no longer have any credit cards), I am immediately given provisional credit for thos charges while they investigate that dispute over a reasonable period of time before either disclaimimng the dispute or making the provisional credit permanent. In 15 years, all of my disputed have been ultimately honored to my credit. Unless you are prone to making frivolous claims, my guess is you have had the same experience.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> I have done business with Charles Schwab in the U.S. for some 15 years and if I dispute _any_ charge against my debit cards (I no longer have any credit cards), I am immediately given provisional credit for thos charges while they investigate that dispute over a reasonable period of time before either disclaimimng the dispute or making the provisional credit permanent. In 15 years, all of my disputed have been ultimately honored to my credit. Unless you are prne to making frivolous claims, my guess is you have had the same experience.


I was treated in a similar fashion by BofA. 

I am uneasy about using my debit card for payments. I use it only to withdraw funds from the ATMs. I use BofA's credit card and pay it off in one or two days with a transfer from my checking.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


joaquinx said:



I was treated in a similar fashion by BofA. 

I am uneasy about using my debit card for payments. I use it only to withdraw funds from the ATMs. I use BofA's credit card and pay it off in one or two days with a transfer from my checking.

Click to expand...

_joaquinx:

I think perhaps you have just made my point. It seems to me that a debit card is as useful as a credit card if one does not need to utilize the credit feature over time. What´s the difference? I use our debit cards on our U.S. bank and two Mexican banks to withdraw cash from various ATMs and, perhaps, make big ticket item purchases at appliance stores or, for, example car dealerships, make reservations on airlines or buses or hotels just as I would with a credit card so why do I need a credit card in the first place? I don´t have to worry about paying off credit card charges because the debit card charges are instantaneous and require no decisions on my part. I would rather keep enough money in my account to cover any charges than pay some crooked stooge to extend me credit and if I need more money in my account, that´s a simple matter of a cost-free online transfer that takes two seconds at home over a cup of coffee.

I tore up our last credit card, an American Express Card, some ten years ago when some fraudsters tried to rip me off when American Express was sending me a new replacement card down here to Mexico. I figured I did not need that and canceled all credit cards - period. The best decision I ever made credit-wise.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> joaquinx:
> 
> I think perhaps you have just made my point. It seems to me that a debit card is as useful as a credit card if one does not need to utilize the credit feature over time. What´s the difference? I use our debit cards on our U.S. bank and two Mexican banks to withdraw cash from various ATMs and, perhaps, make big ticket item purchases at appliance stores or, for, example car dealerships, make reservations on airlines or buses or hotels just as I would with a credit card so why do I need a credit card in the first place? I don´t have to worry about paying off credit card charges because the debit card charges are instantaneous and require no decisions on my part. I would rather keep enough money in my account to cover any charges than pay some crooked stooge to extend me credit and if I need more money in my account, that´s a simple matter of a cost-free online transfer that takes two seconds at home over a cup of coffee.
> 
> I tore up our last credit card, an American Express Card, some ten years ago when some fraudsters tried to rip me off when American Express was sending me a new replacement card down here to Mexico. I figured I did not need that and canceled all credit cards - period. The best decision I ever made credit-wise.


I can only say that the debit card has a large balance behind it while the credit card has a very small limit. I simply feel comfortable with this usage. I feel uneasy plunking down my debit card for a purchase period. Your's is a good plan and I believe that mine is also.


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## mr_manny (Nov 22, 2013)

I also never carry a balance on my CC...I guess you can say I manage my CC, like others manage their Dept Cards.

Moral of story:
Use what your comfortable with?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

mr_manny said:


> I also never carry a balance on my CC...I guess you can say I manage my CC, like others manage their Dept Cards.
> 
> Moral of story:
> Use what your comfortable with?


I think the biggest difference between a debit and a credit card is the situation if you have a dispute about a purchase. With a credit card you can dispute the charge with the credit card company and they are required (by US law, I don't know about Mexico law) to credit the disputed amount back to your account. With a debit card it is like paying in cash. The money is immediately taken out of your account and your only recourse for disputing the charge is with the company you bought from.

I use a debit card for cash at ATMs or to buy something in person from a store where I see what I am buying and walk out with it in my hand. I use a credit card if I am purchasing something over the internet or by phone where I am depending on them to follow through and get it to me.

As far as Mexican versus US cards, if it is priced in pesos, I use a US card. If it is priced in dollars, I use a US card. I almost never buy anything over the internet in pesos but when I do I violate the rule above since I don't have a Mexican credit card, just a debit card.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

ReyMiguel said:


> FYI to all new expats in Mexico, when paying with c.c. always ask for the c.c. machine don't give the c.c. to the waiter to take it behind the counter to do the charge. We just went to our local Chillis in Lerma we felt very comfortable by being at an American Restaurant. The waiter took my c.c. I paid and a week later my c.c. company contacted me about some suspicious charges, about 4500 USD of charges all over the city of Mexico.
> 
> You can never be to careful, hope this help you.


Good advice. Mine never leaves my sight for any reason.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> On the subject of the need for credit cards in Mexico - or in France or the U.S. for that matter- we have had not even _one _credit card during the last decade here as residents in Mexico and as frequent visitors to France and rare visitors to the U.S. We get by with cash and debit cards on one U.S. bank and two Mexican banks for all of our needs including hotel and airline reservations. We wouldn´t dream of using anything but cash to pay in restaurants or anyplace else except for big ticket appliances when we might pay for something like a flat screen TV or refrigerator at a reputable department store . Among good reasons to have Mexican bank accounts is that we pay all utility bills through a Mexican bank account - an absolutely free service - and we make "interbancario" transfer payments to compensate employees in Chiapas who manage our home down there in our absence while we are at Lake Chapala and our employees at Lake Chapala when we are in Chiapas - also totally free of charge using our home computers.
> 
> By the way, our bank accounts in Mexico are absolutely service charge free with small minimum balances of under the equivalent of $200USD which is peanuts.



In one post you have raised a lot of interesting topics, some debatable. For example I always use credit cards not so much in Mexico but always in the USA and then I pay the cards in full every statement. I pay zero interest to the banks, they pay me. 

I have cash reward cards that pay me 1.5% on everything I buy on the card sometimes I can earn as much as 5%. So I collect as much as $1000.00 a year for free in this way. 

So in Mexico I have used the credit cards at the bigger stores and so many businesses including good restraunts with NO problem. I have had my credit card scammed in Las Vegas a few years ago at a hotel but I did not lose one cent. I have never had a problem in Mexico or anywhere else in the USA or on the Internet and I but a whole lot of things via Internet sites. Having said that, I do not recommend giving out the card or paying with the card in just any place, use your common sense. 

I monitor the accounts often and only use cards in Mexico which charge no foreign transaction fee such as Capital One and Chase Sapphire Preferred (and they pay me). I know there are others. I use a debit card from Fidelity to get cash at the fair exchange rate with no fees from the ATM. 

I might need a Mexican bank account to pay local bills such as Utility bills in Pesos when I am gone however I want to do it all on line and in English so can you recommend a bank for that who has english as an option on the web site? . You mentioned that you pay employees you manage your home in your absence. This is probably another topic but I am interested in the costs of those services. I would expect that in a condo it is far less than a house. Anyway I need to have such an employee looking into my condo in our absence. Another story another subject.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It will be different in Mexico and you cannot expect as much English service, since Mexico has an official language; which the USA does not. However, the USA is bound by treaty to support Spanish since it gained 52% of Mexican territory.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

RVGRINGO said:


> It will be different in Mexico and you cannot expect as much English service, since Mexico has an official language; which the USA does not. However, the USA is bound by treaty to support Spanish since it gained 52% of Mexican territory.


Gained???


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> Gained???


Hmm, maybe RVGRINGO meant to say, "took as the result of an unjust war".


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> It will be different in Mexico and you cannot expect as much English service, since Mexico has an official language; which the USA does not. However, the USA is bound by treaty to support Spanish since it gained 52% of Mexican territory.


There is no provision for Spanish language support in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, but there are several Federal laws supporting languages other than English.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Hmm, maybe RVGRINGO meant to say, "took as the result of an unjust war".


That one I can take


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Only tourists use credit cards in restaurants


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

joaquinx said:


> There is no provision for Spanish language support in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, but there are several Federal laws supporting languages other than English.


I read it, back when I could read easily, and it does insure the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, etc.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

sparks said:


> Only tourists use credit cards in restaurants


Of course not!
Most anyone use credit cards at restaurants in Mexico


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=wonderphil;2470866]In one post you have raised a lot of interesting topics, some debatable. For example I always use credit cards not so much in Mexico but always in the USA and then I pay the cards in full every statement. I pay zero interest to the banks, they pay me. 

I have cash reward cards that pay me 1.5% on everything I buy on the card sometimes I can earn as much as 5%. So I collect as much as $1000.00 a year for free in this way. 

So in Mexico I have used the credit cards at the bigger stores and so many businesses including good restraunts with NO problem. I have had my credit card scammed in Las Vegas a few years ago at a hotel but I did not lose one cent. I have never had a problem in Mexico or anywhere else in the USA or on the Internet and I but a whole lot of things via Internet sites. Having said that, I do not recommend giving out the card or paying with the card in just any place, use your common sense. 

I monitor the accounts often and only use cards in Mexico which charge no foreign transaction fee such as Capital One and Chase Sapphire Preferred (and they pay me). I know there are others. I use a debit card from Fidelity to get cash at the fair exchange rate with no fees from the ATM. 

I might need a Mexican bank account to pay local bills such as Utility bills in Pesos when I am gone however I want to do it all on line and in English so can you recommend a bank for that who has english as an option on the web site? . You mentioned that you pay employees you manage your home in your absence. This is probably another topic but I am interested in the costs of those services. I would expect that in a condo it is far less than a house. Anyway I need to have such an employee looking into my condo in our absence. Another story another subject.[/QUOTE]_

wonderphil:

You bring up several issues but just for clarification, we pay our resdential staffs both in Chiapas and Jalisco, residences some 1,500 kilometers apart, through "interbancario" payments in pesos from our home computers from either residence to the respective banks of various employees free of any charge whatsoever. We pay no bank charges ever for any of the services we use at Bancomer or Banamex. Since these are peso to peso money transfers , there are no hidden fees of any kind. A no-brainer.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


GARYJ65 said:



Of course not!
Most anyone use credit cards at restaurants in Mexico

Click to expand...

_Am I reading this right, Gary? Are you inferring that almost everyone uses credit cards in restaurants in Mexico or do I misunderstand your post. I often eat at very expensive restaurants in Mexico and almost always pay in cash but occasionally and reluctantly with a debit card. Maybe I am out of touch but what is the point in paying a restaurant fare with a credit card in Mexico?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> Am I reading this right, Gary? Are you inferring that almost everyone uses credit cards in restaurants in Mexico or do I misunderstand your post. I often eat at very expensive restaurants in Mexico and almost always pay in cash but occasionally and reluctantly with a debit card. Maybe I am out of touch but what is the point in paying a restaurant fare with a credit card in Mexico?


Many many people pay with credit cards, you don't have to carry cash, if you pay soon afterwards, they would not charge any commission, you make points (travel, etc)
Yes, many people use credit cards at restaurants


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

mr_manny said:


> I also never carry a balance on my CC...I guess you can say I manage my CC, like others manage their Dept Cards.
> 
> Moral of story:
> Use what your comfortable with?


Yes any arrangement can work as long as you manage it within your boundaries of trust.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> You bring up several issues but just for clarification, we pay our resdential staffs both in Chiapas and Jalisco, residences some 1,500 kilometers apart, through "interbancario" payments in pesos from our home computers from either residence to the respective banks of various employees free of any charge whatsoever. We pay no bank charges ever for any of the services we use at Bancomer or Banamex. Since these are peso to peso money transfers , there are no hidden fees of any kind. A no-brainer.


We do the same. Interbank transfers are currently free between Mexican banks. This is a great convenience.

(We achieve the same thing in Canada by making regular payments to our housekeepers credit card when we are away.)


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

kcowan said:


> We do the same. Interbank transfers are currently free between Mexican banks. This is a great convenience.
> 
> (We achieve the same thing in Canada by making regular payments to our housekeepers credit card when we are away.)


Your housekeeper must be better off than mine. I don't think my housekeeper has a bank account, much less a credit card. I pay her in advance for short trips. For longer trips I pay her half in advance and half after I return. I live here all year round so I don't have to deal with 6 month absences. Also, she only works for me one day a week, so the amounts involved are not large.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> Your housekeeper must be better off than mine. I don't think my housekeeper has a bank account, much less a credit card.


She has a CC but no bank account. After all, her income is all cash. She live on it and pays the CC in the branch in cash. It was a useful introduction to the Mexican economy before buying here.

Most domestic help are non-banked. They remit money to their home countries through dedicated remittance centers. Although our housekeeper is coming to PV for a week in February. So she needs the CC to book the ticket.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> Am I reading this right, Gary? Are you inferring that almost everyone uses credit cards in restaurants in Mexico or do I misunderstand your post. I often eat at very expensive restaurants in Mexico and almost always pay in cash but occasionally and reluctantly with a debit card. Maybe I am out of touch but what is the point in paying a restaurant fare with a credit card in Mexico?


Yes you might be out of touch or just not listening to a newbie because :yo: already told you the point.

I always pay my bills before due so; The credit card companies pay me back every year about $1000. If I am going to a expensive restaurant anyway I usually pay with a credit card so that I will get more money returned to me at some point in time (or get other rewards). 

I did not tell you about the advantage (as Gary did) about not having to carry as much cash around but that is another reason. 

I did not tell you that I would probably never pay with a debit card. There are at least two reasons for that: 

1. I receive no rewards returned to me if I use a Debit card. 

2. Probably the main reason is that I would be worried about my card getting info being stolen. Credit cards have very big advantages in protection against fraud as compared to Debit cards. Debit cards are more of a open door into your account (up to your daily limit). I only started using Debit cards recently in Mexico to get money from the atm and in the USA in some cases after the gas station started charging for using a credit card and debit cards and cash were the same (so I use the debit card for connivence and with less cost than using a credit card) 

I have never suffered a financial loss in Mexico or anywhere else in the world when using Credit cards in this way. I am going back to Mexico in Jan. after paying for $$$$ in furniture on credit cards (including stuff shipped from the Guadalajara area). I have already paid off the credit card but I have yet to receive the goods. I do not expect to have any problems because these are big businesses who I purchased from.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


wonderphil said:



Yes you might be out of touch or just not listening to a newbie because :yo: already told you the point.

I always pay my bills before due so; The credit card companies pay me back every year about $1000. If I am going to a expensive restaurant anyway I usually pay with a credit card so that I will get more money returned to me at some point in time (or get other rewards). 

I did not tell you about the advantage (as Gary did) about not having to carry as much cash around but that is another reason. 

I did not tell you that I would probably never pay with a debit card. There are at least two reasons for that: 

1. I receive no rewards returned to me if I use a Debit card. 

2. Probably the main reason is that I would be worried about my card getting info being stolen. Credit cards have very big advantages in protection against fraud as compared to Debit cards. Debit cards are more of a open door into your account (up to your daily limit). I only started using Debit cards recently in Mexico to get money from the atm and in the USA in some cases after the gas station started charging for using a credit card and debit cards and cash were the same (so I use the debit card for connivence and with less cost than using a credit card) 

I have never suffered a financial loss in Mexico or anywhere else in the world when using Credit cards in this way. I am going back to Mexico in Jan. after paying for $$$$ in furniture on credit cards (including stuff shipped from the Guadalajara area). I have already paid off the credit card but I have yet to receive the goods. I do not expect to have any problems because these are big businesses who I purchased from.

Click to expand...

_Well, Wonderphil, while this thread is somewhat dated, you bring up points worthy of discussion. 

You are right that, if you religiously pay off all credit card debt monthly as due, there are advantages to using credit cards for all purchases on qualifying goods and services in order to accrue benefits for points earned by the user of the card(s). For years, my wife and I flew free or in an upgraded status to Paris from the U.S. using cedit card points earned by charging our corporate expenses, often quite substantial because of our corpprate responsibilities requiring company reimbursed travel and entertainment expenses, to certain credit card issuers offering points for credit card usage but that was then and now is now. We are retired, have been living in that state of bliss here in Mexico since November, 2000 and will continue in that state as long as nature allows. 

We normally eat at home these days whether at Lake Chapala or in the Chiapas Highlands or eat or seek entertainment at local, modestly priced joints in our regional places of residence or while undertaking excusions between them or on periodic peripheral motortours of nearby places of interest to us. Thus, our accumulated credit card points at this stage of our lives would hardly buy a bucket of frijoles, two plastic forks and two lukewarm Coronas with plastic cups. Perhaps we are being short sighted. A month at the finest venues in Cancun or Mexico City might, after the expenditure of countless of our own, rather than company, pesos, return us a free waterslide adventure in Disneyworld and two nights with Aunt Claudette at a Days Inn just up the road from Orlando including a Floridian "continental" breakfast of weak Nescafe and all the stale day-old doughnuts one can eat. 

The notion, by the way, that credit cards are safer than debit cards is absurd. If you want to talk about that, continue the conversation.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> …
> The notion, by the way, that credit cards are safer than debit cards is absurd. If you want to talk about that, continue the conversation.


OK. I'll bite. Why is the notion that credit cards are safer than debit absurd?

With a debit card, they get your money and you have to convince the bank to give it back. With a credit card, the money doesn't leave your account until you pay the credit card bill, and you can contest the charges. What am I missing?

I use a debit card when I am getting whatever I paid for immediately, i.e. at point of sale places. I use a credit card when I order something for future delivery. And whenever possible I use a card connected to an account in the currency I am spending: a Mexican bank card when spending pesos and a US bank card when spending dollars.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> OK. I'll bite. Why is the notion that credit cards are safer than debit absurd?
> 
> With a debit card, they get your money and you have to convince the bank to give it back. With a credit card, the money doesn't leave your account until you pay the credit card bill, and you can contest the charges. What am I missing?
> .... .



You are missing nothing as far as I know. Looking at a few links on the an Internet search of something like "are Credit Cards safer than Debit cards?" shows many links which support the the notion that Credit cards are safer than debit cards. 

The subject is really OLD news but the following was posted today: The old news repeated today is that Credit Cards are safer than Debit cards. 

5 lessons learned from Target security breach * - TODAY.com

Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express all have “zero liability” policies, so you’ll never lose a penny to credit card fraud.
With debit cards, your maximum liability is $50, if you notify the bank within two days. After that it jumps to $500. You could lose all the money that was stolen from your checking account if you fail to report the fraud within 60 days of getting your bank statement.

Visa and MasterCard promise “zero liability” on the debit card transactions they handle if the customer chooses to sign for the transaction rather than use a PIN. Even so, the missing money doesn’t go back into your account instantaneously.

“Your money could be legally missing from your account for as much as two weeks while the bank investigates and decides whether to reimburse you,” noted Ed Mierzwinski, consumer program director at the advocacy group U.S. PIRG. “During that time you may not be able to pay your rent or mortgage or buy anything with your debit card.”

So why have a debit card? Some people don’t qualify for a credit card. Others use them to stick to their budget, since you can’t spend more than you have in your checking account.

“Debit cards are fine, right up to the point where they get stolen, and then they’re no longer fine,” Ulzheimer said. “In my mind, if you qualify for a credit card and have the willpower not to run up a massive amount of credit card debt, then credit cards are a safer alternative.”


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> OK. I'll bite. Why is the notion that credit cards are safer than debit absurd?
> 
> With a debit card, they get your money and you have to convince the bank to give it back. *With a credit card, the money doesn't leave your account until you pay the credit card bill, and you can contest the charges. What am I missing?*
> 
> I use a debit card when I am getting whatever I paid for immediately, i.e. at point of sale places. I use a credit card when I order something for future delivery. And whenever possible I use a card connected to an account in the currency I am spending: a Mexican bank card when spending pesos and a US bank card when spending dollars.


I thought that was the case too. For over 30 years I have paid my Visa card in full every month. Seldom have I ever had to call Visa. A few times I have called the establishment to clear up a mistaken charge (double charge, wrong amount, etc.) and have always been able to resolve problems.

Recently, a spa hotel in Waschington State did not apply several credits that were due me and when I phoned about it the person that I spoke to at the hotel was very inept. I called Visa to immediately put a stop payment on the charge.

To my surprise I found that the amounts were paid to the establishment (hotel) immediately upon receipt of the charge (when they show up on your Visa account they have already been paid out) and that I would only be able to challenge the charge, explain my reasons and after approximately 30+ days of investigation I would receive a credit if I was found to be in the right.

Surprise, surprise! That was with an US Visa card and although I am in Canada I don't think it would differ in the US.

Bottom line, Tundra, the money is paid immediately. It has nothing to do with when you pay your Visa account. I was shocked and also annoyed to find that was the way it worked as my account with Visa is considerable.

I ended up sorting it out with the manager of the hotel and he gave me a credit within days rather than go through a 30+ day period with Visa.

LIVE AND LEARN!! NOT THE PROTECTION I THOUGHT I HAD.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Detailman said:


> ...
> 
> Bottom line, Tundra, the money is paid immediately. It has nothing to do with when you pay your Visa account. I was shocked and also annoyed to find that was the way it worked as my account with Visa is considerable.
> 
> ...


Yes you are correct in that the money is transferred to the merchants account almost immediately. I used to own a 40 room Motel In Washington state and I know this. However I also know that if the customer disputes the charge (even if he is wrong such as a no show charge ) the money is immediately pulled from the merchants account until the dispute is resolved. 

It appears to me from your post you got your money back so it seems to me that you did have very good protection using a credit card.. You can also consider that maybe the manager gave your money back because he feared bogus disputed with Visa and also maybe he figured his staff at the hotel was wrong in their position. Consider this rather than thinking that using Visa did you no good. Think about the results if you had paid in cash?


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

wonderphil said:


> Yes you are correct in that the money is transferred to the merchants account almost immediately. I used to own a 40 room Motel In Washington state and I know this. However I also know that if the customer disputes the charge (even if he is wrong such as a no show charge ) the money is immediately pulled from the merchants account until the dispute is resolved.
> 
> It appears to me from your post you got your money back so it seems to me that you did have very good protection using a credit card.. You can also consider that maybe the manager gave your money back because he feared bogus disputed with Visa and also maybe he figured his staff at the hotel was wrong in their position. Consider this rather than thinking that using Visa did you no good. Think about the results if you had paid in cash?


I also need to also say that Tundra is correct in that the money does not leave your account until you pay the bill (even though the merchant receives the money in his account (from the bank) maybe the next day).


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

wonderphil said:


> I also need to also say that Tundra is correct in that the money does not leave your account until you pay the bill (even though the merchant receives the money in his account (from the bank) maybe the next day).


I don't want to argue semantics but the fact is that the money is paid to the merchant from my visa account -- not a general cash account.(It is paid on my behalf - no-one elses). As of that moment my cash is gone from my overall credit amount. If I dispute the account that still does not stop Visa from taking the full amount of my Visa charge, including the disputed amount, from my chequing account when the Visa bill is due.

It is only at a later date that I would get a credit back to my Visa Account if my dispute was validated. In the meantime the initial charge has been paid immediately on my behalf and it is then collected from my chequing account long before the dispute is finsihed.

I am not really concerned about whether I will get the money back or not as I have never failed with a bank in over 35 years despite numourous errors on their part. I simply say that the money is paid out immediately and it is not from the banker's pocket.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Detailman said:


> I don't want to argue semantics but the fact is that the money is paid to the merchant from my visa account -- not a general cash account.(It is paid on my behalf - no-one elses). As of that moment my cash is gone from my overall credit amount. If I dispute the account that still does not stop Visa from taking the full amount of my Visa charge, including the disputed amount, from my chequing account when the Visa bill is due.
> 
> It is only at a later date that I would get a credit back to my Visa Account if my dispute was validated. In the meantime the initial charge has been paid immediately on my behalf and it is then collected from my chequing account long before the dispute is finsihed.
> 
> I am not really concerned about whether I will get the money back or not as I have never failed with a bank in over 35 years despite numourous errors on their part. I simply say that the money is paid out immediately and it is not from the banker's pocket.


The only part of your post that sounds different than the way my credit card works is the statement "If I dispute the account that still does not stop Visa from taking the full amount of my Visa charge, including the disputed amount, from my chequing account when the Visa bill is due."

MasterCard does not *take* anything from my checking account, I pay my MasterCard bill with a transfer from my checking account (or from savings or with cash or from another bank). If there were a disputed charge, I would talk to them and withhold payment for it. I have never had a disputed charge, so I don't know what would happen at that point.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

More…

My understanding of the difference between Debit and Credit cards is that Credit cards are covered by the 
*Fair Credit Billing Act,* Pub. L. No. 93-495 (Title III), 88 Stat. 1511 (Oct. 28, 1974), _codified at_ 15 U.S.C §1666 _et seq._ 

"Under the Act, consumers are able to file a claim with the creditor to have billing errors resolved. Until the alleged billing error is resolved, the consumer is not required to pay the disputed amount, and the creditor may not attempt to collect, any part of the disputed amount, including related finance charges or other charges.[3] The Act sets forth dispute resolution procedures and requires an investigation into the consumer's claims. If the creditor determines that the alleged billing error did occur, the creditor is obligated to correct the billing error and credit the consumer's account with the disputed amount and any applicable finance charges.[4]"

The above comes from Fair Credit Billing Act of 1974 - The IT Law Wiki

The law does not apply to Debit cards.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> The only part of your post that sounds different than the way my credit card works is the statement "If I dispute the account that still does not stop Visa from taking the full amount of my Visa charge, including the disputed amount, from my chequing account when the Visa bill is due." MasterCard does not take anything from my checking account, I pay my MasterCard bill with a transfer from my checking account (or from savings or with cash or from another bank). If there were a disputed charge, I would talk to them and withhold payment for it. I have never had a disputed charge, so I don't know what would happen at that point.


To clarify: if I am going to be in Mexico for several months I have my accounts set up so that when my Visa, Hydro, cable, medical premiums, etc. come due they are automatically taken from my chequing account so that I do not have to be concerned with a late fee. They do not arbitrarily take the amount.

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Detailman said:


> To clarify: if I am going to be in Mexico for several months I have my accounts set up so that when my Visa, Hydro, cable, medical premiums, etc. come due they are automatically taken from my chequing account so that I do not have to be concerned with a late fee. They do not arbitrarily take the amount.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


Aha! The water clears. That is probably a good idea. I have to be careful to remember to pay it every month since I never get any paper statements here in Mexico that might remind me. I do get an email reminder, but it quickly scrolls off the bottom of the list.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

To further clarify: Personally I do not have a debit card but simply one credit card that I get a percentage cash rebate from based on the amount charged.

My reasons for not having a debit card have been explained by others. I do not think they have quite the same protection against fraud but that is only my opinion based on my understanding of how they both work. 

One further point: although Canada & the USA are known for having more enforced legislation than Mexico, and one can many times rely on the the "law" that can also give a sense of false security.

What do I mean by that? After over 30 years of dealing with Provincial & Federal government & major corporations & hundreds of lawyers I know that there is what is written & there is how things are practiced. Not nearly as bad as Mexico but the "principles" are the same. Those in power (politically & economically) follow the golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules." -- Despite what the fine print says. 

If you are astute you can still win but the average person does not have the time, resources or acumen to carry things through to a successful outcome.

My last dialogue for this year.

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I´ve enjoyed this discussion as one who lived on credit cards almost exclusively while resident in Alabama and California for about four decades usually tooling about town with virtually no cash. For years we used credit cards for every purchase of goods or services where permitted and, as I stated earlier on this thread, accumulated many benefits while paying off all credit card debt monthly through automatic electronic bank transfers. Then we retired to Mexico with its mostly cash economy and we decided all those credit cards were unneeded as our expenses plummeted and we no longer did much flying nor dining out nor making substantial purchases of capital assets such as cars and real estate which could not be handled with wired funds . We haven´t had any credit cards for years but use three debit cards, two issued by Mexican banks where we have accounts which we use conservatively since we do not wish to become embroiled in controversy with the arcane Mexican banking system, and one issued in the U.S. by our financial intsitution there. We use these debit cards extensively and constantly for everything from ATM withdrawals to payments for all sorts of services or consumer goods and we do so here in Mexico and upon our many visits to my wife´s native France and we have experienced no problems whatsoever that were not as easily resolvable with debit cards as opposed to credit cards. Admittedly, we try to use the U.S. issued card for large or unusual purchases as our U.S. financial institution is a large, well-known and highly reputable institution with an international presence and a consistent client service orientation. Not that our Mexican banks are not part of internationally reputable banking networks but commercial transaction law is not well known to us here in Mexico and that of the U.S. is more familiar to us.

The final straw with credit cards here in Mexico came when we had an American Express Card (along with other credit cards) stolen by some crooked cops in the Tapachula area of Chiapas back in 2010 after we had an automobile accident. I ordered a replacement credit card from American Express with whom I had held a credit card since 1969 and a couple of weeks later received notifications from Amercan Express via e-mail that they were honoring my requests t change our Mexican address to some place in Texas and were allowing at my presumed request a $5,000USD cash advance on my new card, a service I had never requested in some 40 years as an American Express card holder. I, of course, canceled these attempts at defrauding me and canceled the American Express account altogether. I do not blame American Express for this debacle as I have no idea from where the attempted fraud eminated but I decided at that point that the credit cards I was carrying around were not worth the aggravation of defending against the creeps out there in the U.S. and Mexico (or wherever) attempting to get their hands in my pockets. Therefore, all credit cards were exhiled to the trash heap and we have been meeting cash flow requirements with debit cards ever since.

By the way, we have had a few debit card disputes over the last 13 years as residents in Mexico and all were resolved in our favor. Our U.S. financial institution immediately credited our account for disputed amounts upon receiving our telephone message and instututed appropriate research always finding to our credit. The secret to establishing comfort in this area is to keep your accounts at a financial institution with international experience rather that Billy Bob Bank in Pocatella.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Detailman said:



To further clarify: Personally I do not have a debit card but simply one credit card that I get a percentage cash rebate from based on the amount charged.

My reasons for not having a debit card have been explained by others. I do not think they have quite the same protection against fraud but that is only my opinion based on my understanding of how they both work. 

One further point: although Canada & the USA are known for having more enforced legislation than Mexico, and one can many times rely on the the "law" that can also give a sense of false security.

What do I mean by that? After over 30 years of dealing with Provincial & Federal government & major corporations & hundreds of lawyers I know that there is what is written & there is how things are practiced. Not nearly as bad as Mexico but the "principles" are the same. Those in power (politically & economically) follow the golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules." -- Despite what the fine print says. 

If you are astute you can still win but the average person does not have the time, resources or acumen to carry things through to a successful outcome.

My last dialogue for this year.

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum

Click to expand...

_I like that almost clever threat to not post again this year issued on December 29th . an easily-kept gesture carrying more posture than substance. I should emulate that as word games are always amusing. I shall not post again until I need to respond to another worthy opponent and I shall be the judge of discerning who may or may not be worthy.

I,as well as you, worked within the regulatory structure of, in my case, the United States for some 35 years and also, during that time, worked for the financial institutions I had formerly participated in commercial bank regulation as a national bank examiner for the U.S. Comptroller of the Currency, the U.S. group of useless functionaries, feathers on display as those of a male turkey seeking sex and equally absurd, supposedly regulating nationally chartered banks in the U.S., a fancy title indicating nothing of substance except empty suits and exaggrated jargon. At least the absurd male turkey occasionally succeeds in helping to make new turkeys. Wait; there may be some commonality there. 

All among us thinking even superficially know money and power, one breeding the other, that these unpleasant but necessary elements prevail in human society and, as the warmonger and butt-ugly Henry Kissinger, the perfect human representation of a toadfrog, once said, "Power is the greatest aphrodisiac. "

By the way, I must say that perhaps corruption in the United States may be worse than that in Mexico in that it hides behind the "pantalla" of respectability and pretended openness. All you need do is review the trends in wealth distribution there and the inexplicably large incarceration of the poor and powerless in comparison to other "civilized" societies and you can see the well has been poisoned.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> I´ve enjoyed this discussion as one who lived on credit cards almost exclusively while resident in Alabama and California for about four decades usually tooling about town with virtually no cash. For years we used credit cards for every purchase of goods or services where permitted and, as I stated earlier on this thread, accumulated many benefits while paying off all credit card debt monthly through automatic electronic bank transfers. Then we retired to Mexico with its mostly cash economy and we decided all those credit cards were unneeded as our expenses plummeted and we no longer did much flying nor dining out nor making substantial purchases of capital assets such as cars and real estate which could not be handled with wired funds . We haven´t had any credit cards for years but use three debit cards, two issued by Mexican banks where we have accounts which we use conservatively since we do not wish to become embroiled in controversy with the arcane Mexican banking system, and one issued in the U.S. by our financial intsitution there. We use these debit cards extensively and constantly for everything from ATM withdrawals to payments for all sorts of services or consumer goods and we do so here in Mexico and upon our many visits to my wife´s native France and we have experienced no problems whatsoever that were not as easily resolvable with debit cards as opposed to credit cards. Admittedly, we try to use the U.S. issued card for large or unusual purchases as our U.S. financial institution is a large, well-known and highly reputable institution with an international presence and a consistent client service orientation. Not that our Mexican banks are not part of internationally reputable banking networks but commercial transaction law is not well known to us here in Mexico and that of the U.S. is more familiar to us.
> 
> The final straw with credit cards here in Mexico came when we had an American Express Card (along with other credit cards) stolen by some crooked cops in the Tapachula area of Chiapas back in 2010 after we had an automobile accident. I ordered a replacement credit card from American Express with whom I had held a credit card since 1969 and a couple of weeks later received notifications from Amercan Express via e-mail that they were honoring my requests t change our Mexican address to some place in Texas and were allowing at my presumed request a $5,000USD cash advance on my new card, a service I had never requested in some 40 years as an American Express card holder. I, of course, canceled these attempts at defrauding me and canceled the American Express account altogether. I do not blame American Express for this debacle as I have no idea from where the attempted fraud eminated but I decided at that point that the credit cards I was carrying around were not worth the aggravation of defending against the creeps out there in the U.S. and Mexico (or wherever) attempting to get their hands in my pockets. Therefore, all credit cards were exhiled to the trash heap and we have been meeting cash flow requirements with debit cards ever since.
> 
> By the way, we have had a few debit card disputes over the last 13 years as residents in Mexico and all were resolved in our favor. Our U.S. financial institution immediately credited our account for disputed amounts upon receiving our telephone message and instututed appropriate research always finding to our credit. The secret to establishing comfort in this area is to keep your accounts at a financial institution with international experience rather that *Billy Bob Bank in Pocatella*.


OK. Who gave you the name of my personal bank?? That is underhanded! 

PS- I simply had to post once again this year to object to this desecration of my privacy! I expected more from an ex banker.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Detailman said:



OK. Who gave you the name of my personal bank?? That is underhanded! 

PS- I simply had to post once again this year to object to this desecration of my privacy! I expected more from an ex banker. 

Click to expand...

_I´m actually beginning to like you, DT, despite your Canadian ancestry. It´s not, after all, your fault where you popped out. After all, I popped out in rural Alabama in the early 1940s, They were lucky to find a physician quialified to wipe my newborn butt in those days.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> I´m actually beginning to like you, DT, despite your Canadian ancestry. It´s not, after all, your fault where you popped out. After all, I popped out in rural Alabama in the early 1940s, They were lucky to find a physician quialified to wipe my newborn butt in those days.


Based on: (1) the fact that you were in the banking industry; and (2) your comment about what the physician wiped ....... I am having the hardest time to not say something about "cross contamination." With your sense of humour paralleling my own I think you know the connectcion and what I would say in fun. (Three words.)

Love your humour & style of writing.

Keep enjoying your lifestyle. Sounds like you and Citali do a good job of it.

Talk to you next year. Best regards. Detailman.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

DT:

When you are in Mexico whether at Lake Chapala or San Cristóbal de Las Casas, nuestra casa es su casa and the beer is on the house. Your only obligation is to amuse us as you have here in spades.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Detailman said:


> Based on: (1) the fact that you were in the banking industry; and (2) your comment about what the physician wiped ....... I am having the hardest time to not say something about "cross contamination." With your sense of humour paralleling my own I think you know the connectcion and what I would say in fun. (Three words.)
> 
> Love your humour & style of writing.
> 
> ...


I like his humor too good neighbor @BC :canada, however I have no doubt that he can be wrong and then not admit it or lead us off topic (as you have done both) and as I have done also at least once in my life.  

Anyway back to the subject: (as I remember it)

Credit card have far better fraud protection as compared to Debit cards and offer other benefits. This should not be in dispute if you do any research on the subject and if it is then lets continue the discussion.

Debit cards: They are good for taking cash out of the atm if you use one that rebates all fees and does the transaction at fair value. . As far as I know, credit cards are no good for that. So I started using debit cards at the beginning of this year only when I see a benefit for doing that (such as trading $ for pesos out of the ATM at fair value - no cost). 

I hope it is clear by now that in the case of a credit card, the money does not leave your account until you pay the bill. You stated that you have set up a automatic payment from your checking account, this weakens your protection as you are giving the bank access to your account. (so you might have given up that protection, I do not think that is a smart idea as Tundra said maybe being nice). I think you should maintain full control of your account as I do. 

Many years ago, I had a dispute with a credit card company (Citibank) so long ago since the financial crises of 2009 and now do not hold that against them, Citibank is really a new company (and I have a small stock position in that company). Anyway long ago I had a charge on my card from a scam that I admit I did not respond to in the proper amount of time so I was at fault for that. I think it was something time share related but I did not sign anything. At that time Citibank said to get the merchant to agree to refund my money. I knew I was right and refused to pay the bill and cut up my card. Later on Citi Bank turned the account over to a collection agency who sold the account to another collection agency until they got one in my state who might actually have a chance of collecting. At that point I hired a attorney for about $150 and scared the collection agency away real fast (as we could have sued the shat out of them for various reasons). 
I think my credit score did not go down much even then when I refused to pay a credit card bill and now it is about as high as you can get. 

So the morel to that story is the money does not leave your credit card account until you pay the bill.

I did not work in the banking industry as you and the Hound Dog did and I do not fully trust the Banking Industry so I like to keep the control myself (I do not want to give them any authorization to debit any of my accounts directly as you have done). I am in the same situation as you, going to Mexico several months not getting my mail and bills. However I know what credit cards I have and I look online at my bills and I pay them from one of my accounts at Fidelity. BTW I charge everything I can like my phone, electric, dish network, whatever I can charge to a credit card to a credit card. I look at my CC account on the internet and then use "Bill Pay" at Fidelity to pay the bill.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> ... Therefore, all credit cards were exhiled to the trash heap and we have been meeting cash flow requirements with debit cards ever since.
> ....
> .


 I understand (or think I do ) some of the reasons and the situation such as you have given, but like many things in life. 'one size does not fit all" and so what I am saying that "what works for you may not actually be the best advise or even accurate advise for everyone." So having said that I do not want to say that using credit cards are good for everyone. They work for me as I said as I have the discipline to pay the bill off when due so the banks actually pay me 

HOWEVER: 

I know many people who can not use credit cards properly as much as I do for my advantage (such as my kids did before they got smarter about the subject). If not so smart, they do not pay the bill when due and so then they carry a balance on the account and are paying maybe 19% or more annual interest. So that is a different subject, that is a disadvantage of credit cards if a person lacks the discipline.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_...I did not work in the banking industry as you and the Hound Dog did and I do not fully trust the Banking Industry so I like to keep the control myself (I do not want to give them any authorization to debit any of my accounts directly as you have done)...._

Well, if you don´t think you can trust the "banking industry" now, you should have worked among bankers for some 35 years as did I. I´m not writing of account debit authorizations with which I have had zero problems over many years both as a banker, mainly in Northern California, and a retiree here in Mexico. Zero. I do, however, follow periodic automatic transactions within our accounts rigorously.

Rather, I was writing of integrity and the acceptance of resposibility for actions which became misadventures. Bankers are so spineless in general that it is amazing they can get to the office without collapsing into an indefinable mass on the freeway flowing toward and seeking shelter in adjacent gutters. With that attitude on my part, it´s no wonder that my early retirement to Mexico was facilitated by the powers-that-were among my last banking industry employers.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

I was interested in your comment about American Express and wonder if you have noticed how many restaurants or just ordinary shops have a notice saying that they don't accept American Express? I never asked but wonder if perhaps the cost to shops or restaurants is too much.
We did have one many years ago when the Mexican banks were still many years behind, but if one couldn't pay thewhole account each month, the interest was horrendous. As we were building a house at the time in the 80's it was a question of who do we pay and opted to dump AE. 
I have always had a real fear of credit cards since then and only use them for plane fares or hotels.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Justina said:


> I was interested in your comment about American Express and wonder if you have noticed how many restaurants or just ordinary shops have a notice saying that they don't accept American Express? I never asked but wonder if perhaps the cost to shops or restaurants is too much.
> ... .


Yes, that higher cost to the merchant is the exact reason they might not take it (plus maybe a little added paperwork inconvenience). When I was a merchant, my cost to accept the amex card was higher to me than any of the other cards so I did not like amex then. I took it anyway because some people might only use that one for various reasons. 

Now as a consumer, I like to use AMEX, it is my first card of choice to use as it pages me back 2% on everything and the cash back card I use has no yearly fee. EXCEPT I never use the AMEX card in Mexico because it charges me a foreign transaction fee. So in Mexico I use Chase Sapphire Preferred. That card (a VISA), pays me 2%, has no foreign transaction fees but has a yearly fee of about $90 so I will only use it one year). I did that to get the big first year 40000 point or whatever bonus. I also use Capital One when in Mexico because it has no card fee, no foreign transition fee and pays me 1% or 1.5%.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Justina said:



I was interested in your comment about American Express and wonder if you have noticed how many restaurants or just ordinary shops have a notice saying that they don't accept American Express? I never asked but wonder if perhaps the cost to shops or restaurants is too much.
We did have one many years ago when the Mexican banks were still many years behind, but if one couldn't pay thewhole account each month, the interest was horrendous. As we were building a house at the time in the 80's it was a question of who do we pay and opted to dump AE. 
I have always had a real fear of credit cards since then and only use them for plane fares or hotels.

Click to expand...

_Justina:

Let me clarify that I, personally, never had any problems with the American Express Card from the time I acquired my first one as a youth in Alabama in 1969 until I let my card lapse in about 2005. My problem was with scammers who intercepted my card renewal process back then and attempted to change my address from Mexico to Texas, my e-mail address and negotiate a $5,000USD cash advance in order to steal money from my account but I give American Express credit for their internal control procedures which informed me of the ongoing shenanigans while in process and that information allowed me to head off this criminal fraud underway at the time. I commend American Express on their internal control procedures that stopped this fraud in the intrim. I have absolutely no beef with American Express or any other credit card issuer but I, as a cash-dependent retiree with debit cards no longer needed those credit cards so, after we moved to Mexico, those credit cards were history. Adios and into the wastebasket years ago. 

Everyone´s situation is different. All I was trying to do was respond to the comment on this thread that credit cards are more efficacious and secure than debit cards. From experience, I happen to disagree with that proposition as these business transactions, whether iniated through the use of debit or credit cards, occur in a practical sense in true commerce. Maybe I´m wrong but I spread my assets and expenditures among status conveyors and vendors and various opportunities so my losses, if they eventually occur, leave me with enough change for a tequila or two to avoid Hound Dog depression.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

The big difference between using a Debit Card and a Credit Card is that when fraud is involved, and caught before a cardholder pays-off a statement without noticing the fraud (which often happens with automatic bill paying, for some people), it's the credit card issuer's and merchant's money which has been taken and not, as with a Debit Card, the bank account owner's. 

I've managed businesses - hotels and also restaurants/sports facilities - which accepted American Express. I would ask customers to use their Visa or Master Card because the commission we paid those two was so much less, 50% or more, than what American Express charged us and also because, at the time, American Express was taking 90/120 days to pay us for the charges. This dates back to the early 1970s. I would, also, offer a customer/client a 5% discount if they paid in cash instead of using a credit card. Payments from credit card issuers have sped-up considerably but I believe American Express still charges the highest commission. For business, I always traveled with an American Express Card. But for personal expenses I'd pay with Visa or Master Card.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Well you have answered my question and thankyou. I must say that once credit cards got going and the inevitable frauds that have gone with it wehad a complete surprise some five years ago with a card from Banamex which my husband kept and literally under the bed. One Xmas, and we got the bill before xmas but cos he had it for an emergency we didn't open it until January only to discover that we were owing some20000pesos in the border with the US. Two of the exact amount to a Sears and the third billtoa garage. As my husband was at a xmas dinner in his work at the time by the end of the month we were relieved ofthe bill. But that card hadnever been taken ever outmofits drawer, so??..


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Sorry for the typing mistakes, but I type faster than my ipad


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Justina said:


> Sorry for the typing mistakes, but I type faster than my ipad


You can always edit your message to eliminate your typing errors.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

I've had MasterCard put an automatic hold on my card three times when they suspected fraudulent use. Two of those were fraudulent, indeed, and I was not liable for any of the significant charges (someone in the US made a fake card with my number - I never had the card out of my possession). The third time was in the middle of Christmas shopping one year - Dec 22 or 23 - yes, very last minute - I procrastinate because I really am not much of a shopping mall fan. The master MasterCard computer, bless its central processor, did not realize Scarborough and Toronto are part of the same metropolis. So when it received charges from retailers in two "different" cities within less than 30 minutes, it flagged it as fraud and suspended my card. When my card was declined, I called to inquire. Customer service realized what had happened, but said they could not override the computer and I would have to wait until they sent me a new card. Now, I have other cards but I wanted to get my Air Miles points and other perks such as extended warranties on this card, given the amount of shopping I still had to do. So I insisted on talking to a supervisor who fortunately was able to override the computer, and I merrily - OK, probably rather grumpily - was able to finish my shopping. ��

I don't suppose this really supports either side of the credit vs. debit debate. However a recent development at our bank is that all debit cards are now "Visa Debit Cards" allowing them to be used as if they were credit cards, e.g. for purchasing items on-line, plane tickets, etc. (up to the regular debit limit on your card and/or funds in your account). I wonder if this "Visa" feature increases the risk of fraud with these cards as compared with a regular debit card.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

wonderphil said:


> I like his humor too good neighbor @BC :canada, however I have no doubt that he can be wrong and then not admit it or lead us off topic (as you have done both) and as I have done also at least once in my life.
> 
> *(The original topic was not allowing your credit card out of your sight when it is being processed but instead requiring the server to bring the credit card machine to your table. Not a problem in many North American establishments but perhaps not always possible in Mexico – and there is where the danger exists.)*
> 
> ...


Just as a reminder to many newcomers: Please read between the lines and remember that every word has a meaning. Do not take things out of context. You might like to read the thread that dealt with just this subject called "Personal Opinion of Forum Direction." It deals with taking things out of context, not knowing the background of the personalities posting, trying to use a few words or phrases to veer things off to a personal interest or gripe. It contains many good comments and should be read by all posters. It's all about connecting the dots and reading between the lines - sometimes a lost art!


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Detailman said:


> Just as a reminder to many newcomers: Please read between the lines and remember that every word has a meaning. Do not take things out of context. You might like to read the thread that dealt with just this subject called "Personal Opinion of Forum Direction." It deals with taking things out of context, not knowing the background of the personalities posting, trying to use a few words or phrases to veer things off to a personal interest or gripe. It contains many good comments and should be read by all posters. It's all about connecting the dots and reading between the lines - sometimes a lost art!


:hand: whatever was your point? thanks for clearing that up, however I do not really care for the red text as if my opinion matters to you as I am a newbie to this forum (correct or not?)

Now please do not post again until next year 

<


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

(The original topic was not allowing your credit card out of your sight when it is being processed but instead requiring the server to bring the credit card machine to your table. Not a problem in many North American establishments but perhaps not always possible in Mexico – and there is where the danger exists.)

It appears to me that the original topic was the title of this thread.

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...-fyi-c-c-fraud-restaurants-7.html#post2721754

and then it moved over to a debate about Debit cards and Credit cards. 

Yes the topic you mentioned was probably mentioned but it was NOT THE TOPIC

So not forget it you old timer on the thread and my neighbor from BC, and have a happy and prosperious new year!


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

(I have never worked in the banking industry and never said I did. Hound Dog did not say I did either. )

Ok yes, I was wrong to make the assumption that you worked in the banking industry as I did and I apologize for my mistake. 


This is not PC but I respect people in the banking industry a whole lot more than I respect most people working for any govenment (with many exceptions) so I did not claim you worked for the banking industry to disrespect you in any way. 

However;

I very much like the people who work in the banking industry (or any industry for that matter) far more than I like government bureaucrats and that is another subject.


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## dallasteacher (Dec 29, 2013)

The few times I had to use my credit card in Mexico they always brought the machine to the table. I was actually surprised, but then again I was just a naive tourist at the time. I learned very quickly that in most establishments cash is king.


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