# Living Off-Grid in Spain?



## 746786

Hi folks, I'm planning to live off-grid on a plot of land I own near Pinoso, Communidad Valenciana, in Spain. It's been a long slog so far and we (my Polish partner and I) are about 18 months away from moving there from Scotland. We'd like to use permaculture, aquaponics and hydroponics growing methods, build geodesic domes for a workshop, greenhouse and a place to keep my motorcycles. Growing most of our own food, and generally minimising our reliance on consumption; shifting our approach more to self-reliance where possible. The plan is to live a simpler life focusing more on quality of experiences rather than quantity of material goods, comforts, careers and social status!

I'd love to hear from anyone out there who is living off-grid in Spain or planning to or who miht have something to contribute along those lines.

In the meantime, here are some links I found tonight that may be of interest to anyone doing it or planning it. If anyone has any additional stories, experiences, resources, questions or links on off-grid living in Spain please feel free to post them:

*Spain*
The Just Landed Blog » Expat interview: Living in rural Spain

My Life Off Grid (L,O,G.) - Home

Help in an off Grid Eco community project/ looking for permanent members too, Aragon ! - workaway.info

Bad news for off-grid solar use in Spain?
Government plans to penalise renewable energy generation at home - Spanish Property Insight

*General*

Off Grid: Living Off The Grid – Living Off The Grid


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## Expatliving

Frank B said:


> Hi folks, I'm planning to live off-grid on a plot of land I own near Pinoso, Communidad Valenciana, in Spain. It's been a long slog so far and we (my Polish partner and I) are about 18 months away from moving there from Scotland. We'd like to use permaculture, aquaponics and hydroponics growing methods, build geodesic domes for a workshop, greenhouse and a place to keep my motorcycles. Growing most of our own food, and generally minimising our reliance on consumption; shifting our approach more to self-reliance where possible. The plan is to live a simpler life focusing more on quality of experiences rather than quantity of material goods, comforts, careers and social status!
> 
> I'd love to hear from anyone out there who is living off-grid in Spain or planning to or who miht have something to contribute along those lines.
> 
> In the meantime, here are some links I found tonight that may be of interest to anyone doing it or planning it. If anyone has any additional stories, experiences, resources, questions or links on off-grid living in Spain please feel free to post them:
> 
> *Spain*
> The Just Landed Blog Â» Expat interview: Living in rural Spain
> 
> My Life Off Grid (L,O,G.) - Home
> 
> Help in an off Grid Eco community project/ looking for permanent members too, Aragon ! - workaway.info
> 
> Bad news for off-grid solar use in Spain?
> Government plans to penalise renewable energy generation at home - Spanish Property Insight
> 
> *General*
> 
> Off Grid: Living Off The Grid â€“ Living Off The Grid


Hello Frank

Sounds interesting? How strange that if you posted in a UK forum about the growing methods you intend to employ, I doubt if your front door would still be on it's hinges this morning  But I digress ...

Dare I say is this a modern day 'Good life' venture? The renewable energy issues are bit of a no brainer, I guess the Spanish (generally) are blessed with ample amounts of sunshine, so of course the authorities are scared that everybody will start to switch to free, albeit, after the outlay, energy? Heaven forbid something like that happening in the UK with a free resource ... Hang on, it rains a lot here, no protests though? Having said that, there is an obvious difference ... Your solar usage doesn't entail getting the power to your home via masses of pipe work, treatment etc.

People hate to be caught out with a nice little saver/earner, but the Spanish authorities are no mugs, they've always wanted you to hook up to the grid with any solar usage, but now installation prices are coming down, there is a real fear that the spread of near free electricity will rob them of much needed taxes.

I would just get on with things and tell the authorities as little as possible, dog eat dog and all that?

Just be thankful there aren't thermal imaging cameras flying around in Helicopters ... Let it grow! :hippie:


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## 746786

Hi mate. Yes, it's nutty to say the least and I've already developed a healthy disdain for authorities anywhere since they all seem to have the same things in common: greed, control, and the desire to bleed the people dry in one way or another.

I don't expect to get a lot of interest in this thread as my search for the term off-grid didn't yield much on this forum. One solitary thread with no replies with some tumbleweeds blowing through it. (must look for a tumbleweed or a coffin smilie...)

When I bought my little bit of land I had a taste of a peculiar gluttony in Spain. The land only cost me about £16k but the lawyer took £1500 and the notary £800. Then there was the odd phenomenon of 'the brown envelope' passed in the notary's office as he leaves the room, and the request that the price paid on the land be reduced on paper so the seller could avoid the taxes. Between that and dodgy builders hungry for money, and people promising help then withdrawing it later, and the government wanting to cut the throats of self-reliant solar power users, it's a wonder I still want to go out to the bloody place!

Anyway, sunshine and being sick of the rat race in the UK are mighty motivators if you want to live a little freedom and be left in relative peace....:hippie:


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## alborino

Frank I take my hat off to you for trying this. We need more people thinking like you and we might all live a little better.

Sadly I'm past such a grand effort but when installed in my final abode with a minimum of 800 sq meters we aim to grow as much as possible. But in truth not because it is green to do so but because it just tastes so much better.

It amazes me more people don't do it when just a few square meters can generate food for one adult. And small space intensive growing actually reduces the effort and water required.

Do let us know if you set up a blog.


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## 746786

Cheers Alborino. To be honest, we're not really motivated by the green movement at all. Eco-friendliness is a nice bi-product of our plan. The main motivator is exiting the rat race mindset and trying to shake off as many parasites in the process e.g. governments and corporations that get deeper into your pockets and freedoms with each passing month. 

Detaching from the electricity corporation, the waste water corporation, the local council, the phone company (ok, we need a mobile), the landlord, the bank, and all manner of other accepted tapeworms is really my motivation in general. I love nature and feel much better mentally and physically living amongst plants and hills and animals than I do surrounded by plasterboard walls, the noise of the neighbour's telly, and the smell of traffic fumes.

The opportunity to grow and eat truly clean food and water is, I have to say, also a big appeal, especially since I have some health issues to contend with. It's good to hear you speak of using your space to grow food too. Yes, it is totally possible to grow a lot of food in very small spaces and oddly enough the prospect is truly exciting to me! With aquaponics and permaculture you can do wonders.

All the best

PS where are you headed in Spain?


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## Pesky Wesky

> =*Frank* B;6057098
> 
> I don't expect to get a lot of interest in this thread as my search for the term off-grid didn't yield much on this forum. One solitary thread with no replies with some tumbleweeds blowing through it. (must look for a tumbleweed or a coffin smilie...)
> Anyway, sunshine and being sick of the rat race in the UK are mighty motivators if you want to live a little freedom and be left in relative peace....:hippie:


Maybe you need this kind of info, from this thread
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la...ing-own-produce-questions-answers-advice.html


> We used to have access to a friend's garden and we grew peppers, tomatoes etc. Although it may seem strange after the rain we've had this year, the first thing you'll proably need to get sorted is an irrigation system. If not, you'll end up being a slave to your garden having to water at dawn and dusk, and you'll use far more water than is needed.
> Here's some info, but if you search drip irrigation I'm sure you'll get lots of info.
> HowStuffWorks "Trickle or Drip Irrigation"
> This is not to say Lynn's children should stop enjoying watering their plants every day, which I know is a lovely parent child activity.
> I also found this which may be useful.
> Plants and Gardening in Spain - Gardening in Spain - Spanish Gardens
> and this
> Gardening In Spain


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## 746786

Good links Pesky, cheers for that


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## 746786

Frank B said:


> When I bought my little bit of land I had a taste of a peculiar gluttony in Spain.


I should have said 'in my experience of Pinoso so far....'. I've had some limited experience of various other parts of Spain, like Andalucia and Barcelona with some of the aforementioned gluttony e.g. business owners attempting to rip-off foreigners by over-billing etc. But that probably happens in a lot of places around the world and I don't want to generalise about Spain.


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## Pazcat

Whilst I admire your plan I would imagine much of what you can and can't do will come down to just what type of land you own, what the town hall has to say about it and what exact plans you do have.
There is no point planning everything in advance and then finding out you can't build on your land because it's smaller than 10,000m2 or that it is protected land.

I had looked into building a sandbag structure at one point but to get it signed off you need an architect and who knows what they would make of it as a shed let alone a home.
I think the best plan of attack is to look into and contact some of the people who are doing similar in Spain, preferably Valencia region and see if they have any contacts to good architects who understand green building and the regulations here and similarly with a lawyer if one is ever needed.


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## 746786

Thanks Pazcat. I have that covered. Already checked various regs etc. The land is over 10k m2 and isn't protected etc. I still anticipate obstacles though. It's inevitable.


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## alborino

Frank B said:


> Yes, it is totally possible to grow a lot of food in very small spaces and oddly enough the prospect is truly exciting to me! With aquaponics and permaculture you can do wonders.
> 
> All the best
> 
> PS where are you headed in Spain?


Frank yes it is very exciting and these days there are varieties that can give you incredible tailored results as well as surprises. A few years ago a farmer in England gave me a corner of a field. I had to cart water 500 yards in a wheel barrow but the ground was good. I tried one plant of a then new variety of squash. It had ridges running down the football sized fruit so took a while to peel but was delicious. The one plant produced 22 in a month. Well the neighbours were pleased. The other incredible thing was stringless french beans. Really crunchy and up to 10 cms long. We then tried a climbing french been. It grew up the house and had almost no soil to speak of. It looked great with red flowers and big leaves. Couldn't eat them all I'm afraid so again the neighbours helped out.

Sorry wittering. Were off to either Malaga or Cadiz regions. And seed to harvest there will be so much shorter I can't wait to get started. And no need for a greenhouse. Already choosing seeds to take to Spain next year.

Anyway cheers and good luck


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## Stevesolar

Hi Frank,
Before we left the UK for a sunnier place, we turned a corner of our garden into a vegatable patch and we were amazed what you could grow in a relatively small area.
In Dubai, we also grew some more exotic stuff - that likes the heat and again had a good yield from a small plot.
Once we leave the sandpit - we are going to sell our big house on 1/3 acre plot for a smaller house with a smallholding.
We will then install a biomass boiler (or maybe log burner), solar PV, solar thermal, heatstore and LED lighting - to reduce our annual fuel bills.
We will also try to grow all our own fruit and veg both in the open and under glass (dependent on the climate and time of year).
There is nothing more satisfying than knowing where your food has come from - having grown and dug it up yourself!
Best of luck with your project - it is (in my opinion) the right way to go!
Cheers
Steve


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## 746786

Thanks for the encouragement folks. I think once you embark upon a 'free-er' life ('freedom' being a relative term really) then it's easy to get the bug. Growing decent food and being amazed at the abundance that can be produced when the conditions are right is, I think, one part of that bug for me. When you begin to extend that self-reliance ethos into other areas of your life, it can mean a radical change in your perspective and values. I've lived the mainstream life with the mainstream career, mortgage, and all the trappings - good and bad. Money is tight these days but I honestly wouldn't have my old life back. There's something of a revolution going on in the world right now in terms of people turning away from established authority, from healthcare, to food production, to repairing or making things instead of buying things. It's what our grandparents might have considered 'normal' but which we consumers have begun to rediscover as many of us head for the exit door.

Squash can be a tough old vegetable to peel. We cooked some the other week and I was ready for a lie down after wrestling with the thing for fifteen minutes! They taste lovely though. In my excitement about moving to Spain (thought we'd be doing it this year) I made the mistake of buying some seeds a little too early. Got all excited at the thought of growing Maca and even Joshua trees (!) but by the time we get there now, I imagine the seeds will have lost their fertility. But yes, the prospect of growing things for food, and visual pleasure, is a joyful one, particularly as I'm living in the city at present. eep:


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## Lynn R

Frank B said:


> Thanks for the encouragement folks. I think once you embark upon a 'free-er' life ('freedom' being a relative term really) then it's easy to get the bug. Growing decent food and being amazed at the abundance that can be produced when the conditions are right is, I think, one part of that bug for me. When you begin to extend that self-reliance ethos into other areas of your life, it can mean a radical change in your perspective and values. I've lived the mainstream life with the mainstream career, mortgage, and all the trappings - good and bad. Money is tight these days but I honestly wouldn't have my old life back. There's something of a revolution going on in the world right now in terms of people turning away from established authority, from healthcare, to food production, to repairing or making things instead of buying things. It's what our grandparents might have considered 'normal' but which we consumers have begun to rediscover as many of us head for the exit door.
> 
> Squash can be a tough old vegetable to peel. We cooked some the other week and I was ready for a lie down after wrestling with the thing for fifteen minutes! They taste lovely though. In my excitement about moving to Spain (thought we'd be doing it this year) I made the mistake of buying some seeds a little too early. Got all excited at the thought of growing Maca and even Joshua trees (!) but by the time we get there now, I imagine the seeds will have lost their fertility. But yes, the prospect of growing things for food, and visual pleasure, is a joyful one, particularly as I'm living in the city at present. eep:


The very best of luck with your venture, I hope the powers that be don't put too many obstacles in your way.

I have gone some way down the path of downshifting and simplifying my life and am much happier and more contented as a result. Ditched a well paid but stressful job and the joys of commuting for not having to work and being mortgage or any other kind of debt free here. We live quite happily without a car and (to us) unnecessary and excessive use of power for things like maintaining our own swimming pool or using airconditioning, and don't have a landline as it seems pointless having both a fixed line and a mobile. 

Personally I draw the line at getting dirt under my fingernails and don't have so much as a square inch of garden, but I can see how growing your own food can be very rewarding if it's something you enjoy doing.


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## Expatliving

Frank B said:


> Hi mate. Yes, it's nutty to say the least and I've already developed a healthy disdain for authorities anywhere since they all seem to have the same things in common: greed, control, and the desire to bleed the people dry in one way or another.
> 
> I don't expect to get a lot of interest in this thread as my search for the term off-grid didn't yield much on this forum. One solitary thread with no replies with some tumbleweeds blowing through it. (must look for a tumbleweed or a coffin smilie...)
> 
> When I bought my little bit of land I had a taste of a peculiar gluttony in Spain. The land only cost me about £16k but the lawyer took £1500 and the notary £800. Then there was the odd phenomenon of 'the brown envelope' passed in the notary's office as he leaves the room, and the request that the price paid on the land be reduced on paper so the seller could avoid the taxes. Between that and dodgy builders hungry for money, and people promising help then withdrawing it later, and the government wanting to cut the throats of self-reliant solar power users, it's a wonder I still want to go out to the bloody place!
> 
> Anyway, sunshine and being sick of the rat race in the UK are mighty motivators if you want to live a little freedom and be left in relative peace....:hippie:


Hello Frank

My advice, as a non-doggy builder, is set a maximum outlay budget for each job. Pay at stages, make sure there is a contractual agreement, and above all, get recommendations from people in the community for contracted work by local tradepeople.

Ask for a daily rate, if somebody quotes you say 1000 euros for a day and half labour ... tell them to sod off. Builders work on decent payers subsidising the days when they're not working. You need to check Youtube etc for certain jobs, a lighting job that will take a day does not require you to pay a electrician 400 euros as an example, certainly in Spain? Say to them, do you pay yourself 2000 euros for a five day week? No.

Here's a tip: Ask how long the job will take? Find out the cost of the materials, then drop the bombshell "whats your daily rate?" ... Watch the blood run from their faces. If it sounds like you are more than contributing to the tradeperson having the rest of the week off? Yes, you guessed it, tell them to "SOD OFF". Hope everything works out ok for you, keep posting on here as I'll follow your exploits with interest ... :fingerscrossed:

Regards
G&A


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## 746786

Lynn R said:


> The very best of luck with your venture, I hope the powers that be don't put too many obstacles in your way.
> 
> I have gone some way down the path of downshifting and simplifying my life and am much happier and more contented as a result. Ditched a well paid but stressful job and the joys of commuting for not having to work and being mortgage or any other kind of debt free here. We live quite happily without a car and (to us) unnecessary and excessive use of power for things like maintaining our own swimming pool or using airconditioning, and don't have a landline as it seems pointless having both a fixed line and a mobile.
> 
> Personally I draw the line at getting dirt under my fingernails and don't have so much as a square inch of garden, but I can see how growing your own food can be very rewarding if it's something you enjoy doing.


Thank you Lynn. A lot of people are downshifting and downsizing, partly in response to the economy, and partly in response to the madness of consumerism and the wage slavery we have to engage in in order to fund it. Feeling more content and less stressed are two of the big rewards in moving away from what we've been told is normal and desireable living in the consumer west. I gave up the 'ok paid but stressful job too' (helped by getting ill!) and from the point of view of life meaning, it's been the best thing that's happened to me. Harder materially, but better and deeper personally.

Oh, and all you need is a pair of rubber gloves and a window box to get started on the food growing!


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## 746786

Expatliving said:


> Hello Frank
> 
> My advice, as a non-doggy builder, is set a maximum outlay budget for each job. Pay at stages, make sure there is a contractual agreement, and above all, get recommendations from people in the community for contracted work by local tradepeople.
> 
> Ask for a daily rate, if somebody quotes you say 1000 euros for a day and half labour ... tell them to sod off. Builders work on decent payers subsidising the days when they're not working. You need to check Youtube etc for certain jobs, a lighting job that will take a day does not require you to pay a electrician 400 euros as an example, certainly in Spain? Say to them, do you pay yourself 2000 euros for a five day week? No.
> 
> Here's a tip: Ask how long the job will take? Find out the cost of the materials, then drop the bombshell "whats your daily rate?" ... Watch the blood run from their faces. If it sounds like you are more than contributing to the tradeperson having the rest of the week off? Yes, you guessed it, tell them to "SOD OFF". Hope everything works out ok for you, keep posting on here as I'll follow your exploits with interest ... :fingerscrossed:
> 
> Regards
> G&A


Haha. I like it! You sound just like me. I do most work myself, whether I've done it before or not. It's part of my move away from money-dependency and towards re-skilling myself. I just need some help with basics like laying a reinforced concrete base for my mobile home to sit on, footings for posts, and zaorra (spelling?) laid down, which is marble dust and chips they use as hard standing in that region. chain link fence too. I could probably do it all myself if I had a place to buy the tools and keep them out there (cement mixer, rebar, string vest etc) but need some done before we move out there. I hate dealing with trades people for the reasons you mention, and you need to hack your way through the jungle of rip-off merchants and cowboys to get to those rare individuals who have a heart and aren't out to fleece everyone. For a hundred muppets there's maybe one or two human beings with a bit of empathy and common sense in the trades. In any case, my budget would make you laugh (or cry), so there's no way I'll be paying out silly money to anyone.

Anyway, good tips my friend, and I'll definitely be using them. :thumb:


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## Lynn R

Frank B said:


> Oh, and all you need is a pair of rubber gloves and a window box to get started on the food growing!


Actually we do have plenty of space to grow things in pots, and my OH does grow things like cherry tomatoes, chilis and some herbs, but as for me, I could and literally have killed cacti, I am just a disaster zone where plant material is concerned. To my chagrin (don't tell the neighbours) my window boxes are currently full of artificial poinsettias as if I buy the real thing they scarcely last a week.


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## 746786

This may be interesting to some of you as a way of starting to think about living differently:


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## mrypg9

Frank B said:


> from . It's what our grandparents might have considered 'normal' but which we consumers have begun to rediscover as many of us head for the exit door.
> 
> :


I find this topic interesting as I'm old enough to have grown up in the time I think you're referring to. We grew every fruit and vegetable we ate, kept chickens and were supplied with fish, eels and game by my gran's naughty shotgun-owning nephews. We had such variety, of potatoes: my granddad grew varieties for roasting, boiling, frying, of fruit: we grew red currants, white currants, blackcurrants, raspberries, strawberries, loganberries, raspberries....plus the usual beans, peas, carrots, salad stuff and so on.
My gran kept a kitchen drawer full of potentially useful things people chuck away routinely now - elastic bands, buttons, pieces of string. My granddad's tool shed where he spent much of his time was an Aladdin's cave to me....nothing thrown away there either. It was, incidentally, interesting to note that people in Eastern Europe used to do that as replacements for anything were hard to come by .
We didn't have a car but my gran's brother, Great-Uncle Albert, drove a hearse for a funeral company and once or twice a year he would take us out in it for a special treat. As I grew older I became embarrassed by this, driving along at twenty miles an hour or less with a queue of traffic behind us.
I didn't often get new clothes and a lot of my things were knitted for me by my mum. Memories of itchy woollen vests...
We didn't do this as a lifestyle choice but because we were poor. My mum was a widow and we lived with my grandparents in a house with no heating other than a coal fire, no hot water and an outside WC. We went to the public baths to have a bath. I first ate packaged food and stuff from a tin when I left home to go to uni.
It certainly wasn't a stress-free lifestyle. A lot of hard work went into it all and there were constant money worries. But my granddad was a clever man who valued learning and who taught me to read long before I started school. I still remember my mum taking me to the public library for the first time, I must have been five or six.
I have mixed views when I hear words like 'materialism' and 'consumerism'. My old mum was happy as Larry when in her seventies the council bought her house for demolition and moved her into a maisonette with all mod cons. She loved supermarket shopping and didn't regret not spending half the morning going from shop to shop -to the butcher, the baker, the greengrocer, the grocer... I wish my mum had had the opportunity to have a taste of 'consumerism'.
It also seems that the 'self-sufficiency' idea appeals more to men than women. It also can require a lot of hi-tech gadgetry to set up.
Of course many people in the world who have no choice other than to live the simple life would jump at the chance to share in our materialism and consumerism. Many formerly poor countries are working towards or already have achieved this.
The freedom to choose our lifestyle is for many a luxury. Since retiring, we've pared down to a great extent - I haven't worn a skirt or 'heels 'since I retired, my jeans are my usual attire and I've only just started making up my face again since having a cataract op and being able to see clearly all the lines on my face We have one car, approaching ten years old now, but are getting another simply because if that breaks down as it has done or one of us has an appointment away somewhere then we have a backup vehicle. Some may consider that 'consumerism'.
Looking back, I think that although my childhood and adolescence was what many would call deprived, it was a healthy, happy one. I didn't hanker for things I knew I couldn't have and wasn't envious of others who had them.
I don't condemn people as 'materialist' or judge them for excessive consumerism - I'm never sure what that is, tbh. As I see it, people who are prepared to slog away at the 'simple life' are bound to enjoy their lives as my upbringing has taught me one important thing, namely those things which take the most effort bring the most reward. Or as my old gran would put it 'Easy come, easy go'.


Just a few rambling thoughts sparked by Frank's line about 'normal for our grandparents'.


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## 746786

Thanks for that account mate. I should say that I only speak personally when I speak of my own desire for more self-reliance (doing more for myself rather than paying others to do it for me), or my aversion to (not rejection of) 'consumerism' or 'materialism' as cultural norms. I don't look down my nose at people who opt for mainstream life. I'm just fed up with it personally and want a change. Although, I do acknowledge that I can sometimes drift laterally into a slightly nostalgic or idealistic bent on such things. It's not intentional. I can just get a bit frustrated with the way the world seems to be heading as an apparent result of 'free market economics'. Mark Boyle is an interesting guy who studied economics and rejected mainstream ideas on money (I'm not ready to go as far as him yet). He's planted a few seeds with his free-economy ideas, as has Jacque Fresco.






Discussions, both online and face to face, can easily become polarised as well. So when speaking about 'freedom' or self-reliance' etc, they need to be qualified as relative terms, not absolutes. I'll still need toilet paper off-grid, for example, which requires money! (Although, I was horrified to hear that there are people opting for 're-useable' bum-wiping devices!). And try making your own Kit-Kats at home - ain't easy! 

The key word I think is 'balance': a balance between those things that make our lives easier or less stressful, and those practices that give us personal meaning, such as growing your own food, for example. Or building your own house or whatever. For me personally, society has gone far too far in the direction of dependency on others to provide for my needs by giving people cash (consumerism). Or more reliance on possessions to bring us happiness or meaning (materialism), than on experiences, for example. Again, relative concepts rather than absolutes. (My life would feel less meaningful without my Triumph Bonneville to ride, for instance!)

My loss of health showed me that we rely so much on our ability to exchange our precious and finite time and energy for money, which we then use to pay others to provide for our survival needs. I wasn't happy with the vulnerability of realising that the street is but a very short distance away when you stop being able to work as normal, so I made some changes in order to keep the wolves from the door (banks or landlords). Millions more around the world are doing the same for similar or very different reasons.

In the end, you makes your choices, and I'm old enough not to judge anyone for their lifestyle choice, even though it might annoy me at times! One man's (or woman's) necessities are another's luxuries I guess. To think I used to love my dishwasher! And breadmakers are fantastic things! Although I'm struggling to find a way I could have one realistically, as running a generator for four hours to make a loaf of bread is probably not the smartest thing to do!

PS
I also very much agree that those things that require more effort (or discomfort) can be the most rewarding experientially. Wild camping, for example, is something I love but which is very hard work, with most of your time spent thinking about food preparation or gathering, wood for the fire, finding and filtering water. In the rain it's especially tiring. But at the same time, that kind of hard work makes the small comforts all the more enjoyable - hot chocolate with the sound of the rain outside your tent, and a good book read by torch light! Joy...


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## Guest

I've come to this thread late but I love it. Can anyone recommend an idiot's guide to growing your own fruit and veg in a small space for someone who - until now - could hardly tell a houseplant from a weed?


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## 746786

meetloaf said:


> I've come to this thread late but I love it. Can anyone recommend an idiot's guide to growing your own fruit and veg in a small space for someone who - until now - could hardly tell a houseplant from a weed?


Meetloaf, you'd be amazed at the info you can find on youtube these days. Can't think of a book off the top of my head but will post if I find one. Check out aeroponics, aquaponics, permaculture and hydroponics on youtube. Aeroponics in particular allows you to grow massive amounts of food in a tiny space with no soil!


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## fevmor

Good luck with your adventure.
We are in the mountains in Northern Spain. Well off the grid. We moved in March to a house that already had some panels and antiquated batteries and controllers. We are in the process of fine tuning our system and upgrading some of the panels. Initially thought that we would have to source some of the stuff from the UK but have found that we can get everything here. Good quality , service and cheaper. My husband has just built a wood burning stove and it now produces all our hot water as well as cooking our Christmas dinner. It is so much easier to live a simpler life here in rural Spain than it was in Wales. Haven't looked back since packing up our smallholding and moving it lock stock and barrel over to our mountain retreat, 2000 ft above sea !


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## bob_bob

meetloaf said:


> I've come to this thread late but I love it. Can anyone recommend an idiot's guide to growing your own fruit and veg in a small space for someone who - until now - could hardly tell a houseplant from a weed?


Search for Square Foot Gardening Square foot gardening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia lots of books and video's available.


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## 746786

fevmor said:


> Good luck with your adventure.
> We are in the mountains in Northern Spain. Well off the grid. We moved in March to a house that already had some panels and antiquated batteries and controllers. We are in the process of fine tuning our system and upgrading some of the panels. Initially thought that we would have to source some of the stuff from the UK but have found that we can get everything here. Good quality , service and cheaper. My husband has just built a wood burning stove and it now produces all our hot water as well as cooking our Christmas dinner. It is so much easier to live a simpler life here in rural Spain than it was in Wales. Haven't looked back since packing up our smallholding and moving it lock stock and barrel over to our mountain retreat, 2000 ft above sea !


Fantastic!


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## 746786

fevmor said:


> Good luck with your adventure.
> We are in the mountains in Northern Spain. Well off the grid. We moved in March to a house that already had some panels and antiquated batteries and controllers. We are in the process of fine tuning our system and upgrading some of the panels. Initially thought that we would have to source some of the stuff from the UK but have found that we can get everything here. Good quality , service and cheaper. My husband has just built a wood burning stove and it now produces all our hot water as well as cooking our Christmas dinner. It is so much easier to live a simpler life here in rural Spain than it was in Wales. Haven't looked back since packing up our smallholding and moving it lock stock and barrel over to our mountain retreat, 2000 ft above sea !


Hi again Fevmor. Are you growing your own food yet, or still relying on shops? We're hoping to hit the ground running by building/ planning what we need to get started. The solar system is already built and I am ready to build a solar oven, aeroponics system and geodesic dome in which to house it. We're still working on coming up with feasible, small income sources to pay for things we can't do ourselves.






I went with a Butane furnace instead of a wood burning stove myself, purely due to the fact that I don't have the woodland I'd need as a fuel source. Butano is easily had in Spain obviously, and we won't use very much of it in any case. Having said that, it'll power the furnace in winter, the water boiler in cold temps (solar hot water the rest of the time), the fridge (which can also run on 12v and 240v, and the gas hob. Washing water is irrigation water fed through a five stage filter system and I have all the parts ready, including charcoal and zeolite (zeolite also removes radioactive isotopes believe it or not) as filter media. Ceramic filters followed by Black Berkey filters will make it clean enough to drink, plus we'll have the local springs to fill up from now and then.

Composting toilet takes care of business! Urine diluted with ten parts water is sterile and good fertiliser for food plants, the solids compost down into fertiliser for non-food plants. No water wasted for flushing the loo. It's odour free too, as both wastes are separated and ventilated using a continual low-amp fan system I built. Grey water (sinks, shower etc) is fed into a filtration bed and the filtered water will feed plants above it.

So, all in all, we won't need a lot of income. Two main bills: Butane and irrigation water, both of which are cheap for the amount we'll use. Food bills will decrease over time as we grow more and more of our own food. We're both on our way to being veggie again anyway, and are craving a healthier diet (I was veggie for 14 years). The thought of breaking the supermarket addiction is more than appealing. Particularly after all the documentaries we've seen on the horrors behind mass production. Here's one for anyone interested:


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## Alcalaina

When I moved here in 2008 I was keen to grow lots of edible things in pots and troughs on our large roof terrace (we live in a pueblo blanco and don't have a garden). But my tomatoes and peppers succumbed to blossom-end rot, the lemon tree got woolly aphid and the cut-and-come-again salad only worked for about three weeks before it got too hot and cooked. Even the herbs were a failure - I managed a few basil plants in the first year but they were pretty weedy. Coriander bolted straight up then fell over. 

So eventually I decided lugging compost up two flights of stairs and having to water twice a day wasn't worth the effort. Most families here are self-sufficient in fruit, veg and eggs from their plots of land around the edge of the village, and they are more than happy to offload their surpluses. I get regular supplies of lovely healthy organic free-range goodies in exchange for a few euros or a bit of help with their English.

These days I just have some thyme and oregano on the windowsill - the local greengrocer gives you parsley and mint for free, fennel grows wild and the municipal park has plenty of rosemary and bay where you can sneak a few leaves now and again.

Good luck and respect to you people who grow your own, but there are always other options!


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## Pesky Wesky

meetloaf said:


> I've come to this thread late but I love it. Can anyone recommend an idiot's guide to growing your own fruit and veg in a small space for someone who - until now - could hardly tell a houseplant from a weed?


 Lots of info on the gardening thread in the Tasca!


----------



## fevmor

We haven't managed to get a garden going yet , apart from a few strawberries and some tomato plants. We have to make an area that is goat proof as our small herd are intent on exploring wherever they are not wanted. At one stage they thought it highly exciting to climb onto the roof !
We have 60 k m2 which has been neglected for a good few years so have been attacking the gorse , brambles and bracken in a manic fashion. Really satisfying to get the land cared for and productive again. Up here bracken is a real problem and farmers resort to desperate measures by setting fire to the mountain . Needless to say in the summer we have often seen the helicopter with a full bucket of water attempting to quell a fire . 
We are lucky to have plenty of water, a well on our land and a community spring nearby. We plan to install a particle filter and a uv lamp but at the moment we are using a peanut butter jar, filled with gravel and a sock ( clean ! ). We have traded home grown veg for lifts etc and hope to produce all our veg next year. At the moment we are spending all our time working on the land and building workshop and animal sheds but once established my husband will start up his green woodworking business again. We also have a small stone shepherd's hut on our land which we will hopefully be able to rent out to walkers as we are only a few metres from the National Park.


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## SaRmY

*Ecovillage*



Frank B said:


> Fantastic!


I'm not sure if it's the same rural zone that i imagine, but in my city León (north of Spain) in the mountains, there is a little village called Matavenero and is the most famous community organization and ecovillage in Spain and they have a lot of extensions of lands loans for free by the city council. Nothing of population, no cars, no taxes, all electricity get with pannels and wind turbines...

Type in Google Matavenero or for more info:

****


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## 746786

Thanks Sarmy.


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## 746786

fevmor said:


> We haven't managed to get a garden going yet , apart from a few strawberries and some tomato plants. We have to make an area that is goat proof as our small herd are intent on exploring wherever they are not wanted. At one stage they thought it highly exciting to climb onto the roof !
> We have 60 k m2 which has been neglected for a good few years so have been attacking the gorse , brambles and bracken in a manic fashion. Really satisfying to get the land cared for and productive again. Up here bracken is a real problem and farmers resort to desperate measures by setting fire to the mountain . Needless to say in the summer we have often seen the helicopter with a full bucket of water attempting to quell a fire .
> We are lucky to have plenty of water, a well on our land and a community spring nearby. We plan to install a particle filter and a uv lamp but at the moment we are using a peanut butter jar, filled with gravel and a sock ( clean ! ). We have traded home grown veg for lifts etc and hope to produce all our veg next year. At the moment we are spending all our time working on the land and building workshop and animal sheds but once established my husband will start up his green woodworking business again. We also have a small stone shepherd's hut on our land which we will hopefully be able to rent out to walkers as we are only a few metres from the National Park.


That sounds wonderful. I know it's really, really hard work, but the space you have and, by the sounds of it, the remote location sound ideal to me. I have a little over 3 acres (12 250m2) that is in a wide valley of almond orchards. Nearest house is only about 150 metres away from the edge of my plot and there is a possibility that more houses will go up. It's also not very concealed, so I need to be careful about what I build etc, so that my neighbour doesn't think the riff raff have moved in. I'd sooner be hidden away.

You can do a lot with a jam jar and a sock. I'm using a sock and an aluminium drinks bottle as a hot water bottle. Works brilliantly! Your water is probably a lot cleaner than anything close to me. You can get zeolite gravel cheap and it'll work a lot better than ordinary gravel. If you make some charcoal it'll also take any remaining chemical residues out. Sure you know this anyway.


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## Expatliving

meetloaf said:


> I've come to this thread late but I love it. Can anyone recommend an idiot's guide to growing your own fruit and veg in a small space for someone who - until now - could hardly tell a houseplant from a weed?


The trouble was the local cozzers could tell ... When they visited my bruv's abode! Fined him £200 for his troubles ...

:smokin::hippie::mod:


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## zippy-watkins

The property we have has just under an acre of land which is split into three - two terraces and one piece to the side of the house.

We'll be going as self sufficient as we can - mainly because of just that - we can - and will have the time to live like that - rather than currently where we are on that complete treadmill of life. 

We will grow as many vegetables and fruit that location and climate and climate will allow. Some food is cheaper out there anyway. Processed food is more expensive.

And vino is a euro a bottle - and far better than any of the stuff I've had at well-heeled restaurants in London - though I appreciate I am a little biased!

Frank - the problem you may have in Pinoso is the altitude. In La Romana, we can grow oranges and lemons as its that much warmer - and lower (500m above sea level). Pinoso is that bit higher and inland and nigh on impossible to grow citrus fruits.

I'm an avid book reader - and did find a couple of decent books on Amazon by Clodagh Handscombe. They're well worth a read.

There's also a couple of very good garden centres near Pinoso which are run by knowledgeable and helpful people.

We already have a solar panel on the roof for hot water. Having just come back from there last week, we found that the solar heated water wasn't hot enough, so we switched the calor gas heater on when needed. 

Spain does and can allow for a more 'off the grid' type of living. I personally dont want to go whole hog with that - but happy to compromise with home grown vegetables/fruit/eggs and solar power when possible.

Oh and small pointer - apparently (not yet tried by me), butternut squash is far easier to peel/prepare etc if you chuck it in the microwave first..........! Not sure if microwaves are considered off the grid however! 

Karen.


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## 746786

Thanks Karen. Yes, I know about the oranges and lemons. The avocados and peaches will more than make up for that! I have about 70 almond trees and a few olive too. The Spanish just leave almonds to nature - no feed and no water, so some years they're barren. I'll hopefully start growing everything using Permaculture, so that should improve things. Will look up Clodagh Handscombe, thanks.

I've been to one garden centre near Pinoso, which was quite small. Still finding my way around that town but I doubt I'll be spending much time there. Much prefer Elda etc.

No, no microwaves for us. They're really not good for your health. A small bench vice would be ideal for peeling squash. Or even better, a wood working lathe! (an appliance used for making table legs). Bit difficult to find space in the kitchen for one though!


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## zippy-watkins

Frank B said:


> Thanks Karen. Yes, I know about the oranges and lemons. The avocados and peaches will more than make up for that! I have about 70 almond trees and a few olive too. The Spanish just leave almonds to nature - no feed and no water, so some years they're barren. I'll hopefully start growing everything using Permaculture, so that should improve things. Will look up Clodagh Handscombe, thanks.
> 
> I've been to one garden centre near Pinoso, which was quite small. Still finding my way around that town but I doubt I'll be spending much time there. Much prefer Elda etc.
> 
> No, no microwaves for us. They're really not good for your health. A small bench vice would be ideal for peeling squash. Or even better, a wood working lathe! (an appliance used for making table legs). Bit difficult to find space in the kitchen for one though!


We've olive trees and a few almond trees as well. And fig trees. We gave them a hard prune last year as the olive trees in particular looked very sorry for themselves. They're looking much better now. Darren's been busy sorting an irrigation system for the 200 odd cypress trees we planted in October.

There's also a garden centre the other side of La Romana - but we've yet to visit that one. Or the one in Hondon which is another good one apparently. 

Karen


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## Megsmum

Hi

We have been here for almost 1 year and have just over 3 acres

We live totally off grid.

Solar Power
Borehole
Butano - hot water
Wood Burner

We have a huge veg patch which has just gone in. and we are fencing it off from the dogs and other animals. We have also sectioned off an area for chickens and Ducks.

In Feb/March we a planting an orchard.

We are fortunate to have lots of Oak here for the wood burner.

For us the key is to be as self sufficient as we can, without breaking our backs, enough to keep us occupied. 

even today, cold,misty and a tad damp LOVE IT


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## 746786

Looks and sounds excellent Cambio. Have you run into many problems with bureaucracy, setting your land up etc? What will you be growing? I wish you all the best with your orchard.


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## baldilocks

zippy-watkins said:


> The property we have has just under an acre of land which is split into three - two terraces and one piece to the side of the house.
> 
> We'll be going as self sufficient as we can - mainly because of just that - we can - and will have the time to live like that - rather than currently where we are on that complete treadmill of life.
> 
> We will grow as many vegetables and fruit that location and climate and climate will allow. Some food is cheaper out there anyway. Processed food is more expensive.
> 
> And vino is a euro a bottle - and far better than any of the stuff I've had at well-heeled restaurants in London - though I appreciate I am a little biased!
> 
> Frank - the problem you may have in Pinoso is the altitude. In La Romana, we can grow oranges and lemons as its that much warmer - and lower (500m above sea level). Pinoso is that bit higher and inland and nigh on impossible to grow citrus fruits.
> 
> I'm an avid book reader - and did find a couple of decent books on Amazon by Clodagh Handscombe. They're well worth a read.
> 
> There's also a couple of very good garden centres near Pinoso which are run by knowledgeable and helpful people.
> 
> We already have a solar panel on the roof for hot water. Having just come back from there last week, we found that the solar heated water wasn't hot enough, so we switched the calor gas heater on when needed.
> 
> Spain does and can allow for a more 'off the grid' type of living. I personally dont want to go whole hog with that - but happy to compromise with home grown vegetables/fruit/eggs and solar power when possible.
> 
> Oh and small pointer - apparently (not yet tried by me), butternut squash is far easier to peel/prepare etc if you chuck it in the microwave first..........! Not sure if microwaves are considered off the grid however!
> 
> Karen.


We are at 723 m well inland (86 km in a straight line over the highest mountains in Spain) but we grow clementines and lemons and did manage to grow a few strawberries the other year. Neighbours who are about 20 metres lower grow eating oranges, kaquis, butternut and other squash, melons, watermelons, etc.. All around us are grown plums (Golden, Victoria and Reina Claudia [greengage]), peaches, almonds, cherries (many for export to Ferrero Rocher for _Ma Cherie_ chocolates). In the streets are gown bitter oranges for decoration and we use them for orange marmalade. Our province produces about 47% of the world's production of olives.


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## Relyat

Seems like others are well versed in this, while I am just developing an interest.

I've been toying with the idea of solar panels, particularly to provide background heating during the colder months rather than using butane heaters.

As I understand it, to use my existing panel heaters, I will need panels, batteries (?) and an inverter. Is there some formula or calculator to work out what size of each I need for a given wattage of my existing heaters? Obviously this would be adjusted if further heaters were added.

It's more a germ of an idea at the moment and would depend on initial outlay versus savings over time, but it is one that I would like to explore.


----------



## Megsmum

We too are well inland and high, and all around us grow Oranges lemons etc, so although we have ice and frost here not an issue growing citrus fruit.




Frank B said:


> Looks and sounds excellent Cambio. Have you run into many problems with bureaucracy, setting your land up etc? What will you be growing? I wish you all the best with your orchard.


No problems at all, what bureaucracy are you referring to. We live in a agricultural area, the only licences we needed were to cut the oak and burn the trimmings other than that we just get on


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## 746786

Relyat said:


> Seems like others are well versed in this, while I am just developing an interest.
> 
> I've been toying with the idea of solar panels, particularly to provide background heating during the colder months rather than using butane heaters.
> 
> As I understand it, to use my existing panel heaters, I will need panels, batteries (?) and an inverter. Is there some formula or calculator to work out what size of each I need for a given wattage of my existing heaters? Obviously this would be adjusted if further heaters were added.
> 
> It's more a germ of an idea at the moment and would depend on initial outlay versus savings over time, but it is one that I would like to explore.


Hi Relyat. If the panel heaters are electric then i would imagine that the amount of battery power and solar panels you would need to power them would be expensive. Electric heaters use a lot of electricity, and solar DC voltage from batteries via an inverter would also mean you would lose a percentage of your solar generated power to the inefficiencies of inverters. I'm no expert though, so you should check with an installer on costs. But if I were you I would be looking at solar water and air heaters to heat your house i.e. water heated in a solar collector and fed into a tank and circulated around radiators when it's cold. You could combine this with passive solar principles, many of which you will find online. Search youtube for 'passive solar heating', 'solar water heater; etc.

I plan on buying or making a solar water heater when I get out there. It should give me enough hot water for showers with a Butane water boiler as my backup. I'm also planning on making a 'solar air heater' (another useful search phrase for you). These can be very effective ways to heat rooms and you can build them yourself with a little basic DIY skill. Plenty of plans and instructions for these on youtube again.

Good luck.


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## 746786

cambio said:


> We too are well inland and high, and all around us grow Oranges lemons etc, so although we have ice and frost here not an issue growing citrus fruit.
> 
> No problems at all, what bureaucracy are you referring to. We live in a agricultural area, the only licences we needed were to cut the oak and burn the trimmings other than that we just get on


Good to know on the citrus/ altitude quandary. 

By bureaucracy I just mean 'anything that means you have to deal with the authorities'. I'm doing my best to steer clear of them as much as possible, because they generally want money that I just won't have to spare. So it would be good to know (from anyone) what red tape people can expect when we move out there. I want to build a couple of small geodesic domes, some concrete foundation and posts for shade sails, so I think all I'll need is a small building licence. My mobile home is on wheels, so i'm told I won't pay property taxes. The less money I need to give the men in suits, the more I'll have for planting habaneros...


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## Alcalaina

Your post bought this to mind ...


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## 746786

Alcalaina said:


> Your post bought this to mind ...
> 
> W.B. Yeats reads The Lake Isle of Innisfree - YouTube[/url]


Haha. I hope you mean that in a good way Alcalaina!  But yes, I am desperate for 'some peace' and like many of us am really fed up with the way we are used as pit ponies, particularly given the economic disaster and the corruption behind it from people with more money than we could ever dream of. We swap our precious and finite life energy and time in exchange for money that the authorities and corporations are only too happy to relieve us of as efficiently as possible. Whether it's solar panel tax, bus lane fines, parking tickets, national insurance contributions for that fast-disappearing old age pension, and other taxes that are being used to bail out banks and corporations. It's de-spiriting and off-grid life for many of us is an attempt to move away from some of the exploitation (I doubt we could escape it completely).

Here's a quote in return that may convey my sentiments better:

"A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings. Reject the insidious pressures in society that would blunt your critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that would caution silence in the face of injustice, lest you jeopardise your chances of self-promotion and self-advancement. This is how it starts. And before you know where you are, you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack. The price is too high. It entails the loss of your dignity and human spirit."

*Jimmy Reid 
Glasgow University rectoral address, 1972.*


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## mrypg9

Frank B said:


> Haha. I hope you mean that in a good way Alcalaina!  But yes, I am desperate for 'some peace' and like many of us am really fed up with the way we are used as pit ponies, particularly given the economic disaster and the corruption behind it from people with more money than we could ever dream of.
> 
> Here's a quote in return that may convey my sentiments better:
> 
> "A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings. Reject the insidious pressures in society that would blunt your critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that would caution silence in the face of injustice, lest you jeopardise your chances of self-promotion and self-advancement. This is how it starts. And before you know where you are, you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack. The price is too high. It entails the loss of your dignity and human spirit."
> 
> *Jimmy Reid
> Glasgow University rectoral address, 1972.*


Fine words. A shame his later actions did not match them.


----------



## Alcalaina

Frank B said:


> Haha. I hope you mean that in a good way Alcalaina!  But yes, I am desperate for 'some peace' and like many of us am really fed up with the way we are used as pit ponies, particularly given the economic disaster and the corruption behind it from people with more money than we could ever dream of. We swap our precious and finite life energy and time in exchange for money that the authorities and corporations are only too happy to relieve us of as efficiently as possible. Whether it's solar panel tax, bus lane fines, parking tickets, national insurance contributions for that fast-disappearing old age pension, and other taxes that are being used to bail out banks and corporations. It's de-spiriting and off-grid life for many of us is an attempt to move away from some of the exploitation (I doubt we could escape it completely).
> 
> Here's a quote in return that may convey my sentiments better:
> 
> "A rat race is for rats. We're not rats. We're human beings. Reject the insidious pressures in society that would blunt your critical faculties to all that is happening around you, that would caution silence in the face of injustice, lest you jeopardise your chances of self-promotion and self-advancement. This is how it starts. And before you know where you are, you're a fully paid-up member of the rat pack. The price is too high. It entails the loss of your dignity and human spirit."
> 
> *Jimmy Reid
> Glasgow University rectoral address, 1972.*


Nice quote from a great guy. We could do with a few more like him today.

My signature line on other social media sites reads "Forget the rat race, join the human race". I jumped off the treadmill in 2008 to come and knit my own yoghurt in rural Andalucia. So I guess we are on the same page.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Nice quote from a great guy. We could do with a few more like him today.
> 
> My signature line on other social media sites reads "Forget the rat race, join the human race". I jumped off the treadmill in 2008 to come and knit my own yoghurt in rural Andalucia. So I guess we are on the same page.


He made a few good speeches, true. He and I were CP 'comrades' at the same time, way back when. He was a dreadful old unreconstructed Stalinist, albeit very pleasant personally and of course subsequently went through the Labour Party to the SNP. He and I were both 'Trot icepickers'.
He put his political carer on the backburner, in order to pursue a very lucrative career in the media, including working for Murdoch's empire. A fully engaged member of the media rat race. He was good company, a bon viveur par excellence...but then, we agreed that nothing is too good for the workers. 
No hair shirt man he...
Incidentally, the UCS project failed. We have amongst us today quite a few Jimmy Reids, still..
My model trades unionist, as trades unionist, was Bob Crow, which may surprise you. I admired him hugely.. Regardless of his politics, he succeeded in getting great improvements in wages and conditions for his members. He was a nice man too, not much of a speech maker.

We too decided we weren't rats and gave up what possibly could have been a lot of dosh by so doing. But not quite on the same page as Jimmy.

Incidentally, how lucky that we had employment or the means that enabled us to jump ship when there are millions of poor sods who because of low wages or other limiting factors and circumstances can't do what we did and who by nature of them are doomed to be forever on the rat treadmill....but members of the human race, nevertheless.

We should be careful not to fall into the vice of being smug...


----------



## 746786

mrypg9 said:


> We should be careful not to fall into the vice of being smug...


Indeed. I didn't know that about JR. Very sad to read. In the face of a lot of dosh I think many are all too tempted to join the rat pack, despite words issued from 'the angels of our better nature'. Personally, I'm so sick of the Rat Race I can't even begin to write about it here in a way that wouldn't be heavily censored for expletives. 

As Alcalaina says, I'm all-too eager to go knit my own yoghurt :blabla: preferably in complete anonymity. 

Thank you Jimmy for some inspiring words nevertheless.


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## 746786

Alcalaina said:


> My signature line on other social media sites reads *"Forget the rat race, join the human race"*. I jumped off the treadmill in 2008 to come and knit my own yoghurt in rural Andalucia. So I guess we are on the same page.


:welcome:


----------



## mrypg9

One of the attractions of being self-reliant is that you have some control over your choices. I think one of the worst things about employment in most 'modern' societies is the way far too many people are treated in the workplace. Very few workers have any real say as to how their workplaces could be more efficiently run, how conditions could be better, how wages and profits could be increased.
Never mind 'rats', people are treated like children.
As a manager I tried to include people in as much decision-making as possible and OH did that in her business.
Most people are more like gerbils on a treadmill than racing rats. I had a fairly good and pleasant working environment but I still used to dream of green fields and forests ....God knows how people in boring repetitive jobs must feel.


----------



## mrypg9

Frank B said:


> Indeed. I didn't know that about JR. Very sad to read. In the face of a lot of dosh I think many are all too tempted to join the rat pack, despite words issued from 'the angels of our better nature'. Personally, I'm so sick of the Rat Race I can't even begin to write about it here in a way that wouldn't be heavily censored for expletives.
> 
> As Alcalaina says, I'm all-too eager to go knit my own yoghurt :blabla: preferably in complete anonymity.
> 
> Thank you Jimmy for some inspiring words nevertheless.


I heard a lot of words like that in my life in politics. 
No way was JR a bad man, he just wasn't the 'socialist saint' people make him out to be and in reality his achievements for working people were very few. But he was fundamentally decent.
I'm never sure exactly what we mean by the term 'the rat race'. The fact that people are obliged to work for a living, some in dire conditions and for piss-poor pay, is as old as the hills. And of course you need a certain amount of financial security to do your own thing, something shelf stackers at Tescos might wish to do but rarely are able to.
I always remember that line in Attenborough's great film 'Gandhi': 'It costs a lot of money for Gandhi to live the simple life'.
I live a very simple life compared to how I used to and do very little other than read, watch intelligent tv programmes and a lot of football and walk the dogs. We drive a rather battered old LR Disco which we've had for years, don't do anything requiring a lot of dosh.
But to be honest, it's a simple life lived in comfort...I'm too old for my life to be too basic....


----------



## 746786

mrypg9 said:


> One of the attractions of being self-reliant is that you have some control over your choices. I think one of the worst things about employment in most 'modern' societies is the way far too many people are treated in the workplace. Very few workers have any real say as to how their workplaces could be more efficiently run, how conditions could be better, how wages and profits could be increased.
> Never mind 'rats', people are treated like children.
> As a manager I tried to include people in as much decision-making as possible and OH did that in her business.
> Most people are more like gerbils on a treadmill than racing rats. I had a fairly good and pleasant working environment but I still used to dream of green fields and forests ....God knows how people in boring repetitive jobs must feel.


Absolutely. The more I've let go of mainstream aspirations, the more I've seen this parent-child relationship as an inherent dynamic in our society. We are raised to relate to authority figures as 'parent' figures (thereby placing ourselves in the role of infants by default). If you look at how most typically relate to doctors, police, teachers, or basically anyone behind a desk, then you begin to see how we typically disempower ourselves by assuming subservience to those we relate to as superior in some way. It's very unhealthy, not to mention inauthentic and self-defeating. But then gain, who am I to judge. I did my fair share of it in an effort to be accepted or appreciated, before I saw sense. 

Thankfully, there are increasing numbers of people around the world who seem to be 'waking up' to some degree, to the inherent exploitation involved in this was of relating to authority. More and more are seeing through the sham and electing to take greater responsibility for their own lives, choices and the direction in which they steer their own destiny. lane:


----------



## 746786

mrypg9 said:


> I heard a lot of words like that in my life in politics.
> No way was JR a bad man, he just wasn't the 'socialist saint' people make him out to be and in reality his achievements for working people were very few. But he was fundamentally decent.
> I'm never sure exactly what we mean by the term 'the rat race'. The fact that people are obliged to work for a living, some in dire conditions and for piss-poor pay, is as old as the hills. And of course you need a certain amount of financial security to do your own thing, something shelf stackers at Tescos might wish to do but rarely are able to.
> I always remember that line in Attenborough's great film 'Gandhi': 'It costs a lot of money for Gandhi to live the simple life'.
> I live a very simple life compared to how I used to and do very little other than read, watch intelligent tv programmes and a lot of football and walk the dogs. We drive a rather battered old LR Disco which we've had for years, don't do anything requiring a lot of dosh.
> But to be honest, it's a simple life lived in comfort...I'm too old for my life to be too basic....


Yes, if only the speech-makers were authentic people (I can only think of one who struck me as not only authentic, but a decent human being with integrity: Tony Benn, But we can find fault with anyone). But each year the masses fall for the same old lies. 'Yes we can'....

I think we all know, intuitively at least, what the Rat Race is. I try to avoid prescriptive definitions of anything these days, so I'll hazard a working definition that I've cobbled together as a guide for myself. Something like:

1.any exhausting, or relentless, repetitive, or competitive activity, lifestyle, or routine founded upon the act of exploiting others for profit, or exchanging one's time and energy for money, ambition, social status or material success, with little time left for leisure, contemplation, consideration of the impact we have on others, appreciation, simplicity or depth of personal meaning etc.

2. the mindset, habits, choices, values and thinking patterns required to maintain the above lifestyle as a norm or routine

Plenty folk opt for this way of living and thinking. And plenty more are opting out, rich and poor alike. If you want it, I say go hog wild! For me, I'm done with it and just want to grow my own vegetables having slaved long enough for an unaccountable system that is currently screwing us from every angle.

If anyone is still in doubt about what the Rat Race is, take a gander at this:


----------



## mrypg9

Frank B said:


> Yes, if only the speech-makers were authentic people (I can only think of one who struck me as not only authentic, but a decent human being with integrity: Tony Benn, But we can find fault with anyone). But each year the masses fall for the same old lies. 'Yes we can'....
> 
> I think we all know, intuitively at least, what the Rat Race is. I try to avoid prescriptive definitions of anything these days, so I'll hazard a working definition that I've cobbled together as a guide for myself. Something like:
> 
> 1.any exhausting, or relentless, repetitive, or competitive activity, lifestyle, or routine founded upon the act of exploiting others for profit, or exchanging one's time and energy for money, ambition, social status or material success, with little time left for leisure, contemplation, consideration of the impact we have on others, appreciation, simplicity or depth of personal meaning etc.
> 
> 2. the mindset, habits, choices, values and thinking patterns required to maintain the above lifestyle as a norm or routine
> 
> Plenty folk opt for this way of living and thinking. And plenty more are opting out, rich and poor alike. If you want it, I say go hog wild! For me, I'm done with it and just want to grow my own vegetables having slaved long enough for an unaccountable system that is currently screwing us from every angle.
> 
> If anyone is still in doubt about what the Rat Race is, take a gander at this:
> 
> Four Horsemen - Feature Documentary - Official Version - YouTube


Thing is, though, Frank, that an awful lot of people do low-paid, boring, exhausting, repetitive jobs not for someone else's profit but for the good of society. Many public sector workers come under that heading - care workers, street sweepers, nurses and many others - and are happy to do so.

Plenty of folk opt for living in what you might term -and I agree with you - a driven, competitive society. If that's their choice, so be it. I'm sure you'd agree that most of these people choose freely to have that lifestyle and they enjoy it. To dismiss them as mislead or brainwashed could be viewed as patronising.

I spent my life in the 'system', primarily in public service. My partner ran a business. Neither of us exploited anyone although she made a fair profit, partly the reason we enjoy our quieter life in Spain. Most of the time I was bored to ******y and literally counted the days until I could retire on a decent pension. One day my partner just said she'd had enough of it all so three months later we'd sold everything and left the UK for good. I can't say I hated my working life, it could have been worse, but it could have been better. Still, I was luckier than most.
I think that in most things you have to find the balance that suits you, assuming you are able to. Certainly, the older you get you learn a lot of things about life you never dreamed of when you were young. But if I could start over again, I'd do it differently. 


Tony Benn...yes, a lovely man, but like Jimmy, without real achievements politically speaking. Some, myself included, blame him for the turmoil in the 1980s Labour Party (at that time I was a member and activist) which led to the 'longest suicide note in history', the 1983 election manifesto and the SDP, which in turn gave us the dreadful thirteen years of Thatcher. But then he was loved by all which in politics is a rare achievement. He had time for everyone, however unimportant. A friend of mine, a Tory, once wrote to him about something or other and she was delighted to receive a lengthy handwritten reply....


----------



## 746786

Hi mrypg9 I think you're maybe misunderstanding where I'm coming from here as you've used the terms misled and brainwashed, and that's not what I'm suggesting. :confused2: But now that you mention it, I do think in our society we ARE often deliberately misled for the sake of profit, whether by corporations, advertisers, politicians. Even the judicial system thrives upon misleading people. And yes, I think that's very wrong.

But I've no interest in polarising our discussion into off-grid v rat race, good v bad, that's why I'm careful to say my own modest definition is merely a 'guide for myself'. I'm not patronising or condemning anyone (apart from the obvious culprits and I hope I don't have to name each ratbag individually!) or suggesting we all go on an exodus to the country to grow carrots and peas as a solution, even though it might be for some! Moving towards more self-reliant living and more away from earning money to pay others to do what I can do myself is my choice at the moment (may do differently if it goes tits up), based on my personal experiences, health limits and disenchantments with a way of life to which I no longer wish to contribute willingly. It's a shift in personal values for me, not a crusade or opportunity to make moral evaluations of people doing **** jobs for **** wages, working for **** managers. I've been in that boat and my partner is there now. She hates it and I hate her doing it. It's awful and it's unfair that people have to struggle like that within what appears to be a rigged game, especially for those on minimum wage. It's what we're trying to get out of because it feels too much like 'existing' rather than actually 'living'. And an hour of life, we decided, is more valuable than £6.35 or whatever it is now. Moving out of the vicious cycle of hardship and poverty brought about by a cynical exploitation of working people - IF you can find a way - seems sensible to me, particularly where opportunities to change the way the system runs via established forms of social and democratic protest are being dismantled and rendered impotent by the day (thanks Tony Bliar et al for destroying many of our civil liberties during your wimpy, shoulder-to-shoulder administration).

The Rat Race is, at best, a personal way of evaluating an undesireable or self-defeating way of, for example, exploiting others, or clawing your way through life instead of thriving and living meaningfully. It's for the individual to decide for him/ herself whether he/ she is living that way and whether they want to do something about it, not for anyone to judge from the outside. Some don't see their life as a Rat Race at all, others do. Again, no-one on this thread is taking the moral high ground, just expressing personal preferences and choices of life direction to make life a little better, even if that means making it a little harder, simple or more basic.


----------



## 746786

*Solar Air Heater*

Here's an example of passive solar heating tht can contribute to moving away from fuel-tied heating methods. It may help the guy who posted on one of these threads today asking about heating his home with solar. These can be built fairly simply and there are many, many DIY designs on youtube.


----------



## Lynn R

Frank B said:


> Hi mrypg9 I think you're maybe misunderstanding where I'm coming from here as you've used the terms misled and brainwashed, and that's not what I'm suggesting. :confused2: But now that you mention it, I do think in our society we ARE often deliberately misled for the sake of profit, whether by corporations, advertisers, politicians. Even the judicial system thrives upon misleading people. And yes, I think that's very wrong.
> 
> But I've no interest in polarising our discussion into off-grid v rat race, good v bad, that's why I'm careful to say my own modest definition is merely a 'guide for myself'. I'm not patronising or condemning anyone (apart from the obvious culprits and I hope I don't have to name each ratbag individually!) or suggesting we all go on an exodus to the country to grow carrots and peas as a solution, even though it might be for some! Moving towards more self-reliant living and more away from earning money to pay others to do what I can do myself is my choice at the moment (may do differently if it goes tits up), based on my personal experiences, health limits and disenchantments with a way of life to which I no longer wish to contribute willingly. It's a shift in personal values for me, not a crusade or opportunity to make moral evaluations of people doing **** jobs for **** wages, working for **** managers. I've been in that boat and my partner is there now. She hates it and I hate her doing it. It's awful and it's unfair that people have to struggle like that within what appears to be a rigged game, especially for those on minimum wage. It's what we're trying to get out of because it feels too much like 'existing' rather than actually 'living'. And an hour of life, we decided, is more valuable than £6.35 or whatever it is now. Moving out of the vicious cycle of hardship and poverty brought about by a cynical exploitation of working people - IF you can find a way - seems sensible to me, particularly where opportunities to change the way the system runs via established forms of social and democratic protest are being dismantled and rendered impotent by the day (thanks Tony Bliar et al for destroying many of our civil liberties during your wimpy, shoulder-to-shoulder administration).
> 
> The Rat Race is, at best, a personal way of evaluating an undesireable or self-defeating way of, for example, exploiting others, or clawing your way through life instead of thriving and living meaningfully. It's for the individual to decide for him/ herself whether he/ she is living that way and whether they want to do something about it, not for anyone to judge from the outside. Some don't see their life as a Rat Race at all, others do. Again, no-one on this thread is taking the moral high ground, just expressing personal preferences and choices of life direction to make life a little better, even if that means making it a little harder, simple or more basic.


Frank, I do wish you'd stop writing in such a rational and persuasive way. If you inspire too many people to follow your example, whatever will we all do if there aren't enough left behind working for "the man" to pay for our pensions?


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## 746786

Lynn R said:


> Frank, I do wish you'd stop writing in such a rational and persuasive way. If you inspire too many people to follow your example, whatever will we all do if there aren't enough left behind working for "the man" to pay for our pensions?


Sorry Lynn :confused2:


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## Relyat

Frank,

That's one of the one's I found - thanks.

Still trying to fathom the solar way of doing things, but this might well be a viable alternative/complementary


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## 746786

Relyat said:


> Frank,
> 
> That's one of the one's I found - thanks.
> 
> Still trying to fathom the solar way of doing things, but this might well be a viable alternative/complementary


That's good mate. I think you could save yourself a fortune over photovoltaics. The batteries in solar systems are particularly expensive, especially if you want a lot of juice, which you'd need to run radiators.

If you have a south facing stone wall you could build a kind of double glazed 'extension' (about a foot from the wall). Paint the wall black and make an inlet and outlet (into the room(s)). Can't remember the name for this type of wall, but effectively it's a big solar air heater, a little like the one in the video only it's part of the building.


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## greenspain

frank i have really enjoyed reading this, i did want to inbox you but i can't figure out how to do it anyway i just wanted to ask. since your going to be living off the grid over in spain do you need to register as a citezen since you gotta prove a reliable income to be accepted, i was thinking of having a strawbale house built but not have any electric installed as i don't want the hassle of the bills. 

did you buy rustic or urban land ?


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## xabiaxica

greenspain said:


> frank i have really enjoyed reading this, i did want to inbox you but i can't figure out how to do it anyway i just wanted to ask. since your going to be living off the grid over in spain do you need to register as a citezen since you gotta prove a reliable income to be accepted, i was thinking of having a strawbale house built but not have any electric installed as i don't want the hassle of the bills.
> 
> did you buy rustic or urban land ?


everyone living in Spain is required by the govt to register as *resident *(not citizen) no matter how they live


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## Megsmum

greenspain said:


> frank i have really enjoyed reading this, i did want to inbox you but i can't figure out how to do it anyway i just wanted to ask. since your going to be living off the grid over in spain do you need to register as a citezen since you gotta prove a reliable income to be accepted, i was thinking of having a strawbale house built but not have any electric installed as i don't want the hassle of the bills.
> 
> did you buy rustic or urban land ?


off grid or no off grid... you wanna be legal you gotta register

We live off grid, and are registered, being off grid does not negate you from filling in all the appropriate tax forms etc

as an aside re the Rat Race.........Having been to South Africa and seen the townships and also the poor rural areas, not many people really in the western world are in the rat race, facing everyday trying to feed yourself with nothing and walking miles for water seems pretty soul destroying at race racey to me.

I left the public sector ( nurse) because i was after 20+ years no longer able to do what I loved, NURSE i had to fill out forms tick boxes, worry about targets and ended up too jaded to care..........so instead of becoming a bad nurse, me like many other experienced colleagues, jumped ship. BUT i never forget how lucky and privileged I am to be able to have a pension and the ability to move here.


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## snikpoh

greenspain said:


> frank i have really enjoyed reading this, i did want to inbox you but i can't figure out how to do it anyway i just wanted to ask. since your going to be living off the grid over in spain do you need to register as a citezen since you gotta prove a reliable income to be accepted, i was thinking of having a strawbale house built but not have any electric installed as i don't want the hassle of the bills.
> 
> did you buy rustic or urban land ?


Building a strawbale house is a nice idea but you still have to following the building regs. and have permission for it.


Just be careful.


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## greenspain

thank you for the nice replys guys  you have all answerd my questions it now means i can follow all the legal rouites to getting planning permission and such


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## 746786

greenspain said:


> frank i have really enjoyed reading this, i did want to inbox you but i can't figure out how to do it anyway i just wanted to ask. since your going to be living off the grid over in spain do you need to register as a citezen since you gotta prove a reliable income to be accepted, i was thinking of having a strawbale house built but not have any electric installed as i don't want the hassle of the bills.
> 
> did you buy rustic or urban land ?


Hi GS, sorry for the late reply. Left my computer at a friend's place and haven't been online for a few days. Hope you got the replies you need. Perhaps those who know more than me can flesh out the paperwork you'll need to complete, or at least point you to the relevant links. As people have said. if you want to be legal...etc. 

I bought some 'rustic' land I guess. Almond orchards out in the sticks....


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## Laura1933

*Jumilla Off Grid*

Hi Frankie B,
I am living in Derby at the moment and I am in the process of completing the purchase on a plot of land in Jumilla not far from Pinosa. It is also my intention of living a self sufficient life in Spain. The plan is to build a straw bale house, grow my own stuff, plant fruit trees have solar panels the works. What I would like is to meet like mind people to network with. Just like yourself it is less about the Eco Lifestyle and more about the quality of life. My biggest obstacle at the moment is finding an Architect who is willing to accept that I am not building a multi-million euros home. I have already sourced all my building materials which in total has cost me £15000.00 and I am finding it difficult finding an Architect who charges less than €500,00 m2, So if anyone knows of an Architect that does not charge Kidney Donar prices point me in their direction.
Good Luck Frankie B keep in touch and maybe we can swap stories over a pint someday soon.
Laura


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## mrypg9

cambio said:


> off grid or no off grid... you wanna be legal you gotta register
> 
> We live off grid, and are registered, being off grid does not negate you from filling in all the appropriate tax forms etc
> 
> as an aside re the Rat Race.........Having been to South Africa and seen the townships and also the poor rural areas, not many people really in the western world are in the rat race, facing everyday trying to feed yourself with nothing and walking miles for water seems pretty soul destroying at race racey to me.
> 
> I left the public sector ( nurse) because i was after 20+ years no longer able to do what I loved, NURSE i had to fill out forms tick boxes, worry about targets and ended up too jaded to care..........so instead of becoming a bad nurse, me like many other experienced colleagues, jumped ship. BUT i never forget how lucky and privileged I am to be able to have a pension and the ability to move here.


That is very very true. Some of us may indeed have been in the 'rat race' but compared to many we were very sleek well-fed and comfortable rats indeed.


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## rte

It's been great reading this thread and I've learned some things. It's good to know that people are out there doing this kind of thing.

I'm in Spain right now for the next 6 weeks looking for land to buy to grow fruit & veg and build an eco house (or renovate a ruin). I'm looking in the areas from Catalunya to Valencia and Aragón to get a feel for the best area. Being near like-minded people is an important thing for us and I'd appreciate meeting up with any of you who's over here now to help get a better idea of where to base ourselves.

If anyone wants to meet up for a beer/coffee/juice/whatever! let me know on here via message etc...

Regards.

Matt.


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## tonymar

Hi Matt

I am near Alicante, is that too far south for you,

Plenty of cheap land and renovation projects around at the moment 

Tony


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## rte

Hi Tony, thanks for the message. It's not necessarily too far for me. We were staying in Altea la Vella last month having a bit of a look around - we loved the area, but people kept telling us it's too dry to do what we wanted, hence we've come up further north to research here. I'm driving down to the mataraña area next week to look there, so could carry on south for a bit. do you have any details of what's available? Thanks. Matt


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## Terdave

This thread reminds me of a house we had viewed near Alicante,

This house had a wind turbine and a solar panel on a mast on the edge of the plot of land, at the base was a small building to house the Batteries and transformer, it had 2 rows of 5 Batteries, plus meters to monitor the charge of electricity, we were told this was enough to run lights, washing machine and fridge, they had a hot water cylinder, how they heated the water not sure, maybe by electricity from the solar panels.

Outside also was a water tank to hold the drinking water that they had delivered by lorry plus they had a cess pit under ground for the waste, I asked how often do you have to have wait to empty it, he said he has a friend who lives down the road and pipes the waste on to his Olive trees, can this be right, legal?


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## Laura1933

Hi rte,
There are quite a few plots in Murcia, you should check it out.
Good luck


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## rte

Thanks Laura. How much rainfall there? It seemed a bit arid when driving through - we need to grow fruit & veg year round....


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## Laura1933

Hi There All You Great Expats,
Does anyone know where I can get quite a lot of used tyres in the Murcia area. If you do can you please contact me.
Thank you in advance,
Laura


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## Pesky Wesky

Laura1933 said:


> Hi There All You Great Expats,
> Does anyone know where I can get quite a lot of used tyres in the Murcia area. If you do can you please contact me.
> Thank you in advance,
> Laura


A scrap yard (desgüace) I'd have thought, or a garage that does tyre changing. You may be better starting a new thread...


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## tonymar

rte said:


> Hi Tony, thanks for the message. It's not necessarily too far for me. We were staying in Altea la Vella last month having a bit of a look around - we loved the area, but people kept telling us it's too dry to do what we wanted, hence we've come up further north to research here. I'm driving down to the mataraña area next week to look there, so could carry on south for a bit. do you have any details of what's available? Thanks. Matt


Hi Matt

Yes this area is dry, almost desert like , when we bought our finca it was planted with orange trees , about 200 , I mistakenly thought they would be easy to keep, let's face it trees in the UK are quite low maintenance .

anyway 12 years on they are nearly all dead now , it turned out they needed huge amounts of water and care , which I could not afford .

But the ground is good around here , many vineyards , olive and almond groves

Right water, you can't take it or infact any thing you would take for granted back in the UK.

However there are plots available with town and irrigation water,

Let me know your criterior and I will see what is available locally 

Things I consider important are

Water, electric, good road access, proximity to shops, medical centre etc, legality of any existing building 

Cheers Tony


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> A scrap yard (desgüace) I'd have thought, or a garage that does tyre changing. You may be better starting a new thread...


In the UK there are very strict rules concerning the disposal of tyres. Garages have to use a registered company who give a certificate that they will be ' properly' disposed of.
This is expensive.
Don't know about Spain.


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## baldilocks

The thing to do is to look around. See what is already growing and how it is growing (method and manner). If it works already, then the chances are that somebody is already doing it, despite what some people think, the Spanish are not stupid and they grow what can be grown and they know how to grow it. What you may be able to do is introduce new varieties and make modifications to the methods and manners. For example, if what is already growing requires a protective solid windbreak/wall build one from recycling old tyres, or if citrus is already growing, introduce a new variety, say kumquats, etc.

It is rather like "what type of vehicle should I buy?" - look around and see which is the most common type of vehicle - the chances are that that is the most suitable vehicle for the terrain, usage and area. If you are thinking of something really groundbreaking, then you'd better be either very rich, very lucky or prepared for a great deal of disappointment.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> In the UK there are very strict rules concerning the disposal of tyres. Garages have to use a registered company who give a certificate that they will be ' properly' disposed of.
> This is expensive.
> Don't know about Spain.


Didn't know that!
It's probably an EU thing so probably applies to Spain too, but the places to start looking are still the ones I posted before


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Didn't know that!
> It's probably an EU thing so probably applies to Spain too, but the places to start looking are still the ones I posted before


It's to stop unscrupulous garage workshops dumping their unwanted used tyres in the countryside somewhere.
We used to wait until we had a really big pile then call the tyre disposal specialists. We paid them a lot of money and they gave us a certificate, or, as my old Mum would have said, a Cerstificate'.


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## IanB

mrypg9 said:


> It's to stop unscrupulous garage workshops dumping their unwanted used tyres in the countryside somewhere.
> We used to wait until we had a really big pile then call the tyre disposal specialists. We paid them a lot of money and they gave us a certificate, or, as my old Mum would have said, a Cerstificate'.



Wrong! Its a Susstiffeekite where I come from


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## Megsmum

rte said:


> Thanks Laura. How much rainfall there? It seemed a bit arid when driving through - we need to grow fruit & veg year round....


Spain is a big place We are in Extremadura, water is no issue here, vegetables grow a plenty


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## Alcalaina

rte said:


> Thanks Laura. How much rainfall there? It seemed a bit arid when driving through - we need to grow fruit & veg year round....


Murcia is one of the driest parts of Europe, no rain at all in the summer months, so make sure you have your own well or access to an irrigation system.


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## amaninavan

Hi Frank

I haven't read all nine pages of this thread yet but but just from the first post we have astonishingly similar goals and outlook on life.

I am studying Permaculture at the moment and the only land we have to grow on is our allotments but I am in the process of building a small (4.5 meter diameter) Geodesic dome ant the moment that is going to house an off grid Aquaponics system.

We are also steadily moving more and more towards an independent, self reliant life by trying to strip away the chains that bind us to TPTB in the UK.

Have you built a Geodesic dome yet and are you already doing Aquaponics etc.

I look forward to some long chats about all this in the future. Maybe one day over a pint of home brewed real ale.

paul


----------



## 746786

amaninavan said:


> Hi Frank
> 
> I haven't read all nine pages of this thread yet but but just from the first post we have astonishingly similar goals and outlook on life.
> 
> I am studying Permaculture at the moment and the only land we have to grow on is our allotments but I am in the process of building a small (4.5 meter diameter) Geodesic dome ant the moment that is going to house an off grid Aquaponics system.
> 
> We are also steadily moving more and more towards an independent, self reliant life by trying to strip away the chains that bind us to TPTB in the UK.
> 
> Have you built a Geodesic dome yet and are you already doing Aquaponics etc.
> 
> I look forward to some long chats about all this in the future. Maybe one day over a pint of home brewed real ale.
> 
> paul


Hi Paul. Haha. Good to hear froma kindred spirit. Pint sounds good. I haven't been on the forum lately but will reply to your PM and other posts soon.

In the meantime, no I haven't built a dome yet, but plan to soon. I bought "Geodesic Math" and need to tackle that soon. And/ or buy a set of plans. I've been dipping in and out of Mollinson's permaculture books for a while too. Still in the pre-Spain stage though, so I need to do quite a bit of hands-on work and saving before we can set off. A kindly forum member gave me the contact of a friendly builder where my plot of land is, so that will help me get the plot prepped before I it the road.

Thanks to you and everyone else for contributing to this thread.


----------



## 746786

Laura1933 said:


> Hi Frankie B,
> I am living in Derby at the moment and I am in the process of completing the purchase on a plot of land in Jumilla not far from Pinosa. It is also my intention of living a self sufficient life in Spain. The plan is to build a straw bale house, grow my own stuff, plant fruit trees have solar panels the works. What I would like is to meet like mind people to network with. Just like yourself it is less about the Eco Lifestyle and more about the quality of life. My biggest obstacle at the moment is finding an Architect who is willing to accept that I am not building a multi-million euros home. I have already sourced all my building materials which in total has cost me £15000.00 and I am finding it difficult finding an Architect who charges less than €500,00 m2, So if anyone knows of an Architect that does not charge Kidney Donar prices point me in their direction.
> Good Luck Frankie B keep in touch and maybe we can swap stories over a pint someday soon.
> Laura


Hi Laura, again sorry for not replying sooner. I've been off-line lane:. Your ideas sound great and hopefully someone will give you a decent contact for a kindly architect. I haven't come across many in Spain (or the uk) who don't expect you to cough up a kidney in exchange for their services. Some say it's the economy. In the case of the Spanish lawyer and notary (and bank) I dealt with when buying my land, I say it's just greed.

Yes, please keep in touch. You can always PM me if you feel like it. Where are you located?


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## BaguetteMan

I've just found this thread and have only skimmed through it (will read in more detail later but I've got work to do right now). Frank B, I would dearly like to do the same thing as you are planning. I would probably prefer to do it in France as for language reasons (can speak a little French but no Spanish) but I guess I could learn Spanish.
My goal is to find or build a very small house with enough land for veg growing, chickens etc. I like the idea of using simple alternative technology such as solar panels for electricity, solar air heating and solar water heating. I can get some work over the internet so I'd need internet coverage. Unfortunately, I don't know Spain well enough to read on the 'net about property prices or climate details - I would need to find something really cheap ...
Sorry for rambling! I hope you will update us on your progress so far. I would love to hear how it's progressing.
Good luck with it!


----------



## 746786

*anyone out there living off-grid?*

Hola folks, I thought I would attempt to revive this thread rather than start another one on the subject. "Anyone out there living off-grid or self-reliantly?"

Sadly, we are...what...three years on and still dragging ourselves along in Perfidious Albion [insert head hanging in shame emoticon here]. A death in the family, health issues and generally life getting in the way of our plans. But, like this thread, we've dusted off the idea once again and have revived our hopes of living off-grid and more self-reliantly...somewhere in Europe. Spain probably. Portugal possibly. But anywhere that ticks the main boxes.

I should add that we have been practicing for it a bit: growing some food (in the rain), learning about plants (in the rain), and we now have a pond (filled up with rain). We've also nearly finished season 4 of The Good Life, and so far our tendencies for such a life have been veering more towards Jerry and Margo, over Tom and Barbara's 'we've no money' woes....

Would be good to hear from anyone with similar interests, particularly anyone actually living off-grid.....


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## ScottishB123

Hello Frank

I am very interested in your thoughts and views on this subject as I share the same dream of getting away. I am just starting to think about this and would really like to get the views and thoughts on it from someone, like yourself, who has been thinking about this for longer.

I don't really know what the real options are, I just know that I need to leave this rat race behind!!


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## 746786

ScottishB123 said:


> Hello Frank
> 
> I am very interested in your thoughts and views on this subject as I share the same dream of getting away. I am just starting to think about this and would really like to get the views and thoughts on it from someone, like yourself, who has been thinking about this for longer.
> 
> I don't really know what the real options are, I just know that I need to leave this rat race behind!!


Hi, welcome to the forum. Feel free to ask any questions and let us know what your plans and ideas are so far.


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## Megsmum

We live totally off grid... grow our own food etc

Ask away


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## John Seigal

Megsmum said:


> We live totally off grid... grow our own food etc
> 
> Ask away


How often do you have your well-water checked?


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## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> We live totally off grid... grow our own food etc
> 
> Ask away


I don't remember you saying you live off grid before. You don't have mains water, electricity, gas, sewage...?


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## JimmyLocksDad

Megsmum said:


> We live totally off grid... grow our own food etc
> 
> Ask away


How do you generate your electricity to be able to live "totally off grid"?


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## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't remember you saying you live off grid before. You don't have mains water, electricity, gas, sewage...?



Nope... none.....

We have solar for electricity with a back up Genny which we use occasionally during the winter usually on grey days. We have a well for the land and a borehole for drinking and general household water which is tested yearly... so far spring fresh. Pozo *****..with filtration system for grey water. usual gas butano bottles for cooking and hot water and two very large estufas for heating in the winter. :cheer2:




JimmyLocksDad said:


> How do you generate your electricity to be able to live "totally off grid"?


Solar


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## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Nope... none.....
> 
> We have solar for electricity with a back up Genny which we use occasionally during the winter usually on grey days. We have a well for the land and a borehole for drinking and general household water which is tested yearly... so far spring fresh. Pozo *****..with filtration system for grey water. usual gas butano bottles for cooking and hot water and two very large estufas for heating in the winter. :cheer2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solar


More power to you Meg'sMum - well, so to speak...:tongue:
Save​


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## John98103

Question - 

What does utility-provided electricity cost in Valencia, per kilowatt hour?


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## Bapom

Hello Frank
We are living in Valencia region for 2 years. We have house in the mountains nearby Pedralba, with solar only, we have agricultural water. I am trying to use permaculture method on our land to grow vegetable and fruits tree. If you would like some information maybe I will be able help you with.


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## BPA

Hi Bapom, 
We live in Sueca, Valencia. We would like to contact you if possible?


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## Tellus

Hi, 
don 't want to open a new thread so sorry if I hook up here.

My plan is using a rural plot for recreational but off grid living, some month every year.
I 'm retired so work for money is over...

Is it duable, to set a Tiny house in Asturias / Ourense (mobile / container) in rural area. 
What needs to be considered?
Can a shed (Nave) be rebuilt as a tiny home? f.i. an open shed with a container underneath ?
The roof of the shed should used for solar panels. Instead water toi a separate dry toilet.
Got no plot yet, so I 'm looking for a place with water..pond, river or deep well.


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## nigele2

Tellus said:


> Hi,
> don 't want to open a new thread so sorry if I hook up here.
> 
> My plan is using a rural plot for recreational but off grid living, some month every year.
> I 'm retired so work for money is over...
> 
> Is it duable, to set a Tiny house in Asturias / Ourense (mobile / container) in rural area.
> What needs to be considered?
> Can a shed (Nave) be rebuilt as a tiny home? f.i. an open shed with a container underneath ? The roof of the shed should used for solar panels. Instead water toi a separate dry toilet.
> Got no plot yet, so I 'm looking for a place with water..pond, river or deep well.


Over the last 10 years I've investigated a few ruins on plots in Asturias (At first for me but later for a member of my spanish family). 

We've found plots. Absolutely no services. And dirt cheap (wouldn't dent my credit card very much). And some plots you could grow produce. 

Not sure what the local authorities would think but I guess if you told them that your plan was at some point you would seek services connection that might create a way in. And a ruin gives you scope to build a shelter without breaking any planning/building regs. Well that's what we were told. As long as we stayed within the dimensions of the original structure. But we haven't yet put it into practise.

Water in Asturias shouldn't prove too much of an issue  

Do keep us uptodate with any progress and suerte :fingerscrossed:


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## Tellus

Thank You for your Info and Experience. I think that helps me. As soon as something develops, I will be happy to report.


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## BaguetteMan

I've no real advice to offer but I seem to remember reading that there are lots of abandoned villages/houses in Spain, available at knock-down prices. Buying such a property might get around any need for planning permission? Some even report free ruined houses - see this link:

https://www.thelocal.es/20140309/abandoned-spanish-villages-given-away-for-free


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## Tellus

Well my Spanish knowledge turns to Zero but beside Galpon, Ruina, Nave etc. I learned a new word: Sequeiro.. a house for drying goods like tobacco. Know that from Italy where we had vacation in an old tobacco dry house called essiccazione.
Can be a small hut but even a big stone house. Just found a ruin of an old Sequeiro in beautyful area.
I'm curious...


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## Isobella

Here you are, on Bloomberg a few days ago. Not my idea of living but it takes allsorts. I reckon they are empty for a reason, why don't the Spanish buy them.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...or-sale-as-spain-fights-rural-desertification


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## Atmeco9

Hi all on this thread. I'm Scottish and living at the moment in Denmark. Me and my family have been planning for a while to go off-grid, self-reliant living, probably in the Valencia area. Growing crops for ourselves and for sale. The usual solar power & heating with back up generator, bore hole, well etc. Been looking at a few rural properties with decent land and found quite a few. Not planning the full cut-off life, as i plan to have a car and a boat for fishing etc, so we will have some fuel/car bills etc. A good bit of the crops will be through aquaponics preferably or hydroponics on a reasonably big scale also fruit trees, root crops etc, and chickens. early retirement with a bit of an income in the sun sounds good to me. With this being an old post going back a few years. I was wondering if anyone actually made it out there, and have any helpful info on the experience. We own our house in Denmark (probably only worth around 50-60K). For residency do you need money in an account? (for Denmark both me and my partner needed 10k each in an account). It's just we could get that done with the money before we bought the property. I will be putting up a proper insulated workshop to do odd jobs, paying jobs. Which will be wired up and run of the generator when needed. already have all the metal fabrication, woodworking tools etc. I'm a coded Oil&Gas welder/fitter/ fabricator to trade. I've done a bit of small scale aquaponics before, and was very successful. What experience have you had doing similar in Spain, or elsewhere? Is there any more problems to overcome now with Brexit, or not fully taken effect yet? All advice and help would be appreciated. Hopefully planning to get things moving after this virus restrictions have past, depending on house sale.


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## BaguetteMan

Atmeco9 said:


> Hi all on this thread. I'm Scottish and living at the moment in Denmark. Me and my family have been planning for a while to go off-grid, self-reliant living, probably in the Valencia area. Growing crops for ourselves and for sale. The usual solar power & heating with back up generator, bore hole, well etc. Been looking at a few rural properties with decent land and found quite a few. Not planning the full cut-off life, as i plan to have a car and a boat for fishing etc, so we will have some fuel/car bills etc. A good bit of the crops will be through aquaponics preferably or hydroponics on a reasonably big scale also fruit trees, root crops etc, and chickens. early retirement with a bit of an income in the sun sounds good to me. With this being an old post going back a few years. I was wondering if anyone actually made it out there, and have any helpful info on the experience. We own our house in Denmark (probably only worth around 50-60K). For residency do you need money in an account? (for Denmark both me and my partner needed 10k each in an account). It's just we could get that done with the money before we bought the property. I will be putting up a proper insulated workshop to do odd jobs, paying jobs. Which will be wired up and run of the generator when needed. already have all the metal fabrication, woodworking tools etc. I'm a coded Oil&Gas welder/fitter/ fabricator to trade. I've done a bit of small scale aquaponics before, and was very successful. What experience have you had doing similar in Spain, or elsewhere? Is there any more problems to overcome now with Brexit, or not fully taken effect yet? All advice and help would be appreciated. Hopefully planning to get things moving after this virus restrictions have past, depending on house sale.


I think there are/will be requirements, particularly with regards to Brexit, in terms of being able to prove you have enough regular income (from pensions, a job etc) to support yourself if you intend to live permanently in Spain. There may be other conditions on any application for a visa for residence. Also some 'ruins' may be agricultural buildings, i.e. not approved as residential so you would need to talk to the local authorities to check area zoning (agricultural, residential, industrial etc) before buying a ruin in which to build a dwelling.


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## Atmeco9

Thanks for the quick reply Baguetteman. Yeah i was thinking there would be quite a few new problems now regarding Brexit. The properties we've been looking at are already liveable and not ruins. We did start off looking at ruins. And it wouldn't be a major issue to do one up. But after the expense of doing one up, it would be cheaper just buying one we could already live in (some really nice ones in the budget). Some already have solar power, bore hole/well, with land already producing fruit etc. so would just be a case of getting the required permission and moving in. Like you say tho Visa's are now going to be the real issue, especially with off-grid living. The whole idea is get away from the 9-5 rat race type working life. So i wouldn't have the offer of a job in the country to show them. In Denmark we didn't need anything other than the 10K in each account (before Brexit tho). I'm not sure if they would class the aquaponics and working off the land as a job/business. Maybe worth a try. With a Larger scale aquaponics setup it'll be producing a serious amount of veg/fruit to sell.


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## Overandout

If you want to sell produce you will have to register as a self employed worker, so technically you will be working.

That would work to your favour if you get here this year and become a beneficiary of the withdrawal agreement, but ironically, any visa you can get after December would probably make that plan to sell produce virtually impossible (legally).

In short, get here quick and register! Even if it isn't where you want to be / doing what yuou want to do!


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