# Another take on tourism



## crewmeal

The Daily Mail has jumped on the bandwagon and won't do the tourist industry any good.

Islamist rule in Egypt may scupper tourism if it is followed by crackdown on alcohol and bikinis | Mail Online


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## ArabianNights

crewmeal said:


> The Daily Mail has jumped on the bandwagon and won't do the tourist industry any good.
> 
> Islamist rule in Egypt may scupper tourism if it is followed by crackdown on alcohol and bikinis | Mail Online


I might sound a bit harsh, but so be it: Why is alcohol and the need to show less skin such a big deal? I mean its like alcohol is the be all end all for tourists....I don't drink the stuff and never have, and I don't know what the big deal is about. Why can't people enjoy themselves on holiday (or generally in life) without the need to drink alcohol? I find it amazing how a fermented grape or whatever revolves around the life of many people - it has no advantages whatsoever, apart from maybe a 5 minute 'high' - but if people think that they cannot 'enjoy' themselves without the need to drink, then there is obviously something wrong, or a 'void' that alcohol 'fills'. I just don't get it.


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## jojo

ArabianNights said:


> I might sound a bit harsh, but so be it: Why is alcohol and the need to show less skin such a big deal? I mean its like alcohol is the be all end all for tourists....I don't drink the stuff and never have, and I don't know what the big deal is about. Why can't people enjoy themselves on holiday (or generally in life) without the need to drink alcohol? I find it amazing how a fermented grape or whatever revolves around the life of many people - it has no advantages whatsoever, apart from maybe a 5 minute 'high' - but if people think that they cannot 'enjoy' themselves without the need to drink, then there is obviously something wrong, or a 'void' that alcohol 'fills'. I just don't get it.



I dont drink either, nor do I see the need for others to, but like it or not, tourists from the west do expect to be able to on holiday and have a drink. Eliminate them from the equation of visitors and holiday makers and you eliminate a major percentage. As for the sunbathing thing... well I'm not sure why its a problem. But we're then back to that "men cant control themselves" issue. Cos I cant see any other reason why to not allow it??!

Jo xxx


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## crewmeal

Good points raised ArabianNights. However we could debate this forever and go back in time when the Americans invented cocktails such as a Martini, which of course is an excuse for drinking neat gin or vodka. In those days it was drunk as to stimulate the appetite.

Different cultures have different takes on alcohol. In the Western World it's part of the norm and you can take it or leave it. In other cultures and faiths it is deemed evil and prohibited. Here we have a situation when east meets west in terms of culture and usually the two do not mix.

Take the argument from there......


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## canuck2010

I still find the taxes on alcohol crazy. In several other predominantly Muslim African countries I have lived in, imported alcohol wasn't even taxed. 

If Egypt were to ban Alcohol, tourists could just go to Jordan, or Dubai, or any other number of Middle East countries.


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## Sonrisa

A bikini is a big deal for me. I cannot stand going to a swimming pool or a beach and seeing everyone else bathing with their clothes on. I find it dirty, I don't know why. 
Also in the swimming pools in some of the clubs here you are stared at if you wear a bikini or even a one piece, and made feel very uncomfortable, so I just don't go.

If I am paying money to go on a holiday, I don't expect to be lectured on what I should or should not wear. Brits etc view Sharm and other destinations in rthe red sea, as a beach holiday, where they drink, sunbath and have fun in ways that we may not aprove. Take away the drink and their right to dress as they like, and they will stop coming, simple as that. 

Theyll just all head to benidorm or cyprus where they can drink and wear a bikini.


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## ArabianNights

OK, i could say a lot of things here, which will not go down well with others, so ill just keep my mouth/trap shut


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## Sonrisa

ArabianNights said:


> OK, i could say a lot of things here, which will not go down well with others, so ill just keep my mouth/trap shut


Oh, how boring. Fine. 

The islamist can do as they like, but if they want western visitors, then they'll have to cater for them, and yes that includes allowing them to show skin and making booze readily available. 

If they don't want western turist, then they can kiss their revenue from tourism bye bye, as the rich gulf turists much prefer to head to seychelles, Maldives or exclusive european destinations, where, by the way, they get drunk and wear a bikini without having religion constantly thrown at them.


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## ArabianNights

Sonrisa said:


> rich gulf turists much prefer to head to seychelles, Maldives or exclusive european destinations, where, by the way, they get drunk and wear a bikini without having religion constantly thrown at them.


Ewwwww! Youve just given me the image of a drunk Arab man throwing off his tradition garb (Hijab and all  ) dressed in a bikini, with a bottle of wine in one hand and a panty/something else the other hand. Thanks


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## jojo

I have to say that there are other folk who really shouldnt walk around in a bikini in public - those of us who have a few too many surplus pounds/kilos lo!!!!

Jo xxx


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## PaulAshton

If alcohol was such an issue what suprises me about Egypt is that "alcopops" are 10 - 12% here and in the west 4 - 7% and Sakara King beer is 10% you can hardly drink it without feeling you need to dilute it perhaps they should compromise and reduce the alcohol

I have also seen Egyptian men with breasts or walking around on the beach in a string thong or white thin underwear no sign of banning that

I can't see many tourists going dressed like ninjas in 30 - 40 cel heat, how the hell can they snorkle, looks weird, huh?


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## marenostrum

PaulAshton said:


> I have also seen Egyptian men with breasts or walking around on the beach in a string thong or white thin underwear no sign of banning that
> 
> [/IMG]


I thought that the worst sight of all for you was seeing Sharon and Tracy from Liverpool and their fat chidlren sunbathing around a swimming pool in your complex. 
You seem to have a problem with people's appearances.


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## PaulAshton

marenostrum said:


> I thought that the worst sight of all for you was seeing Sharon and Tracy from Liverpool and their fat chidlren sunbathing around a swimming pool in your complex.
> You seem to have a problem with people's appearances.


They have the same right to wallow like anyone else and wear Shiseido Hydro-Powder Eye shadow green eye shadow and bright blue Christian Dior Diorshow Iconic Extreme Waterproof Mascara, 

Perhaps the Salafi's should have a fashion police and place a ban on that and encourage ear and nostril waxing as a form of torture, not only is it painful I now have the displeasure and torture of heightened olfactory senses and can smell a dead cat from 50 foot away and can hear the complex tones of Jennifer Lopez featuring Pitbull "On the Floor" that constantly plays where I live


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## marimar

I think for most people when they go on holiday, the want or need for alcohol is because it's something that you can't do in everyday life. You can't drink and then drive or have a few beers and then pop off to work, when you're on holiday it's a time to relax and that's the best time to drink maybe, when you know you don't have to get up for work the next day or drive anywhere.
As for bikini's etc, I have no problem with people sunbathing in bikini's (thongs is a different matter...don't even want to go there....) but what I do object is nude bathing on beaches where there are families. I for one don't think it's acceptable that I or my children should have to see naked bodies on the beach (although being in Alexandria now I don't see that that will be a problem), if they have an area for nude bathing, then thats fine, each to their own.
My husband worked in Jordan for a while and the hotel where he worked had a policy of asking guests to cover up if they attempted to nude sunbath as the management kindly explained that they were in a Muslim country and it wasn't acceptable.


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## PaulAshton

marimar said:


> I think for most people when they go on holiday, the want or need for alcohol is because it's something that you can't do in everyday life. You can't drink and then drive or have a few beers and then pop off to work, when you're on holiday it's a time to relax and that's the best time to drink maybe, when you know you don't have to get up for work the next day or drive anywhere.
> As for bikini's etc, I have no problem with people sunbathing in bikini's (thongs is a different matter...don't even want to go there....) but what I do object is nude bathing on beaches where there are families. I for one don't think it's acceptable that I or my children should have to see naked bodies on the beach (although being in Alexandria now I don't see that that will be a problem), if they have an area for nude bathing, then thats fine, each to their own.
> My husband worked in Jordan for a while and the hotel where he worked had a policy of asking guests to cover up if they attempted to nude sunbath as the management kindly explained that they were in a Muslim country and it wasn't acceptable.


There is no need for nude bathing however I have swam naked in the sea where nobody can see me but that was Greece where they don't have big fish with sharp teeth :eyebrows:

These guys need to realise that bikini's have nothing to do with sexualised behaviour, but personally I do not like to see topless women on the beach

Rule of thumb is don't wear something that you would not want your mother to see you in or young kids 

I wear loose Hawaii style shorts as I realise nobody wants to see my withered meat and two veg


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## jojo

So heres an observation!! Us westerners are saying its ok to wear a bikini, but not go naked, we dont like it. just like we dont like seeing people walking around the town, shops, restaurants etc in bikinis. So how about thinking for a moment how its feels if you've been brought up in a country that believes in keeping the body covered completely. Muslims dont like seeing too much flesh, their tolerance levels are less than ours if only cos they've not been brought up with seeing scantily dressed people and probably feel as uncomfortable as those of us who dont like seeing full nudity!! 

Jo xxx


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## marenostrum

PaulAshton said:


> There is no need for nude bathing however I have swam naked in the sea where nobody can see me but that was Greece where they don't have big fish with sharp teeth :eyebrows:
> 
> These guys need to realise that bikini's have nothing to do with sexualised behaviour, but personally I do not like to see topless women on the beach
> 
> Rule of thumb is don't wear something that you would not want your mother to see you in or young kids
> 
> I wear loose Hawaii style shorts as I realise nobody wants to see my withered meat and two veg


Would the fish find anything to bite on?:focus:

I don't see a problem with topless women on a beach if it is acceptable to the local culture. I take it if Katie Price was standing topless on the beach at your complex you would look away wouldn't you  again I doubt the fish would find something.....

On a more serious note are the tourists in Sharm really that bad?
Are you telling me that some of them look and act like her below?


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## marenostrum

marimar said:


> My husband worked in Jordan for a while and the hotel where he worked had a policy of asking guests to cover up if they attempted to nude sunbath as the management kindly explained that they were in a Muslim country and it wasn't acceptable.


I wished this worked both ways. I wonder what would happen if a muslim woman wearing a fully clad black dress covering everything from head to toe with a 0.5mm x 1.2cm mosquito net opening across her eyes was told not to wear such clothes in an European city......


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## Musical

marenostrum said:


> I wished this worked both ways. I wonder what would happen if a muslim woman wearing a fully clad black dress covering everything from head to toe with a 0.5mm x 1.2cm mosquito net opening across her eyes was told not to wear such clothes in an European city......


You're too late - France banned women from wearing the niquab & burka on 11 April 2011.


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## PaulAshton

marenostrum said:


> On a more serious note are the tourists in Sharm really that bad?
> Are you telling me that some of them look and act like her below?


It's very rare to see the type that pulls a knife on you and asks if you've got any nail varnish so he can get high off of it

The type I am on about are the boring transient 40 something urban urchin residents at a complex who try and make it into a mini England there is no word to describe them.

As soon as they come over they head to the pub with showy working class person Argos bling, fake pearl bracelet, JJB football shirt or Fred Perry shirt they had in the sales and need to have chips with every meal. If the pubs sold roses in them they would probably buy one...after sucking up to the pub manager by giving them some bacon they smuggled over for free cocktails

You simply cannot hold an intelligent conversation with them as they will show you some photo of them their son on a BMX bike they bought from Halfords or how they miss mini Scotch Eggs, or show off and show you the latest iPhone that contains the occasional sentimental Disney hit like Lion King.

I rather live with Egyptian's who are poor but genuine and resourceful and believe it or not I can have more interesting intelligent conversations. Some of these guys might have an old mobile phone, holes in the clothing but show pride and more class than many of the residents..many of the pathetic residents who will look down on them throw them a 20LE tip but tell everyone about it....they could have rather spent the 20LE on themselves touching up the dark roots of bleached hair.


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## CatMandoo

PaulAshton said:


> I rather live with Egyptian's who are poor but genuine and resourceful and believe it or not I can have more interesting intelligent conversations. Some of these guys might have an old mobile phone, holes in the clothing but show pride and more class than many of the residents..many of the pathetic residents who will look down on them throw them a 20LE tip but tell everyone about it....they could have rather spent the 20LE on themselves touching up the dark roots of bleached hair.



:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:
Can't add a thing, you said it all! Bravo for you Paul!~


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## MaidenScotland

I think the first thing that has to be established once and for all is covering Islamic or cultural?

Yes I know it doesn't say you must cover up in the Koran.. but of course others will say it does and that is where the conflict appears.. is it religious dress or cultural.?


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## marenostrum

PaulAshton said:


> It's very rare to see the type that pulls a knife on you and asks if you've got any nail varnish so he can get high off of it
> 
> The type I am on about are the boring transient 40 something urban urchin residents at a complex who try and make it into a mini England there is no word to describe them.
> 
> As soon as they come over they head to the pub with showy working class person Argos bling, fake pearl bracelet, JJB football shirt or Fred Perry shirt they had in the sales and need to have chips with every meal. If the pubs sold roses in them they would probably buy one...after sucking up to the pub manager by giving them some bacon they smuggled over for free cocktails
> 
> You simply cannot hold an intelligent conversation with them as they will show you some photo of them their son on a BMX bike they bought from Halfords or how they miss mini Scotch Eggs, or show off and show you the latest iPhone that contains the occasional sentimental Disney hit like Lion King.


Count yourself lucky, at least you are not paying for their upkeep with your taxes.

The rabid left are happy at chucking welfare money at them but they don't understand that instead of buying decent food for their kids or swimming lessons to keep them fit they would rather buy beer and cigarettes.


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## marenostrum

Musical said:


> You're too late - France banned women from wearing the niquab & burka on 11 April 2011.


And how much of this has actually been enforced?


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> And how much of this has actually been enforced?




A women was fined last week for driving with a niqab ..trying to find the link


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## PaulAshton

MaidenScotland said:


> A women was fined last week for driving with a niqab ..trying to find the link


It poses a hazard how the hell can they see?

No wonder Saudi has banned woman drivers however the excuse is it would spell the end of virginity in the country. 

Apparently a report contains graphic warnings that letting women drive would increase prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce.

On the other side of the coin due to the French law Amnesty International has condemned an overwhelming vote by the lower house of the French parliament to ban the wearing of full-face veils in public 

"A complete ban on the covering of the face would violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who wear the burqa or the niqab as an expression of their identity or beliefs," said John Dalhuisen, Amnesty International's expert on discrimination in Europe"


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## marenostrum

PaulAshton said:


> said John Dalhuisen, Amnesty International's expert on discrimination in Europe"


Another parasite making money out of the EU failed project.


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## hhaddad

MaidenScotland said:


> A women was fined last week for driving with a niqab ..trying to find the link


Actually what I have heard and seen in the french press it's being inforced and not only for driving but also on public transport and for going into banks etc.


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## jojo

hhaddad said:


> Actually what I have heard and seen in the french press it's being inforced and not only for driving but also on public transport and for going into banks etc.


I guess it works both ways, the west may ban such clothing for safety reasons, but then Muslim countries ban "our" clothing for their own modesty reasons, which to them is probably just as important!!

Maiden made an interesting point about who decides what clothing should be worn - religion or culture??? As I understand it, most religious rituals, clothing, ideologies etc come from ancient laws regarding the environment that they were living in at the time - religion was originally a form of policing and controlling the masses. Some religions have moved with the times, others havent for whatever reason - Thats not to belittle any of it, but I do feel that we ALL need to show a bit more respect for the values of the countries we choose to settle in be it alcohol, clothing, marriage... etc !!! Remember that old say "when in Rome...." well we're all guilty to an extent of not doing that and trying to change our surrounding to make them like "home"!!!! I guess the same for tourism and holidays, altho if Muslims and Egypt become too "strict" they will lose tourists - but the choice is theirs IMO

I suspect in a few generations time, we'll all have amalgamated into singing from the same song book and we'll find something else to argue about LOL. But it wont happen overnight

Jo xxx


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## expatagogo

hhaddad said:


> Actually what I have heard and seen in the french press it's being inforced and not only for driving but also on public transport and for going into banks etc.


My former Egyptian sister-in-law lives in France. When she and her husband returned to Egypt after being away for seven years (had to get their residency papers fixed before they would leave), not only was she platinum blonde, she no longer hijabed. Why? "It's illegal in France!" she said, batting her lashes over her blue contact lenses. Really, this is the stuff lore is made of.


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## Eco-Mariner

Happy New Year to all forum moderators. You are doing a splendid job.

I would like to ask a couple of questions to jojo's point _"ideologies etc come from ancient laws regarding the environment that they were living in at the time"_ which may add confusion..... 

If the rest of the world is living in the 21st Century, then why would these cultures require the proceeds from tourism and International trade? Don't they like the benefits from it?

Or would they prefer to go back to poverty and the conditions of the middle ages these ideologies came from? Surely they cannot have it both ways?


Eco-Mariner.


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## PaulAshton

hhaddad said:


> Actually what I have heard and seen in the french press it's being inforced and not only for driving but also on public transport and for going into banks etc.


To get around the French law a designer picked up on the loop hole of driving with motorcycle helmets (as provided by law) 

They created a helmet and it's not a joke..so if someone would like to go to the mosque on a motor bike alone they can do so, I would expect when getting off the bike they would have to put on a veil that does not cover the face.

_Helmets used for various purposes have different designs. While designers create different types of helmets that meets its intended purpose, helmets designed by Death Spray are quite unusual, however, meets the requirement of the users. Death Spray always tries to be innovative in design when compared to other designers and it reflects well in its new creation, Helmet Niqab. This stylish piece of work is as traditional as other helmets with a variation in its aesthetics and is designed to fit accurately. It conceals the entire head, leaving a portion open for the eyes._










Here are details on the ban:

French ban on face covering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of 11 April 2011, it is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks. 

The key argument supporting this proposal is that face-coverings prevent the clear identification of a person, which is both a security risk, and a social hindrance within a society which relies on facial recognition and expression in communication. The key argument against the ban is that it encroaches on individual freedom

Veils such as the chador, scarves and other headwear that do not cover the face, are not affected by this law and can be worn. The law applies to all citizens, including men and non-Muslims, who may not cover their face in public except where specifically *provided by law such as motor-bike riders* and safety workers and during established occasional events such as some carnivals. The law imposes a fine of up to €150, and/or participation in citizenship education, for those who violate the law. The bill also penalises, with a fine of €30,000 and one year in prison, anyone who forces (by violence, threats or by abuse of power) another to wear face coverings; these penalties may be doubled if the victim is under the age of 18.

As a result of the law, the only exceptions to a woman wearing a niqāb in public will be if she is travelling in a private car or worshiping in a religious place.

French Police say that while there are five million Muslims in France, fewer than two thousand are thought to fully cover their faces with a veil


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## marimar

MaidenScotland said:


> I think the first thing that has to be established once and for all is covering Islamic or cultural?
> 
> Yes I know it doesn't say you must cover up in the Koran.. but of course others will say it does and that is where the conflict appears.. is it religious dress or cultural.?



I think the origin does come from the religion but nowadays especially here in Egypt a lot of the women wear the veil because of social pressure or expectations making it a cultural issue. If you notice that most of the young girls wear very colourful scarves and don't always completely cover the hair, this is done more like a fashion thing. To wear the traditional veil it should be to cover the hair completely and to extend over the shoulders. Personally I like to see all the different colours and for most women I suppose when you grow up in a society like this it is the norm for them to dress so.


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## MaidenScotland

marimar said:


> I think the origin does come from the religion but nowadays especially here in Egypt a lot of the women wear the veil because of social pressure or expectations making it a cultural issue. If you notice that most of the young girls wear very colourful scarves and don't always completely cover the hair, this is done more like a fashion thing. To wear the traditional veil it should be to cover the hair completely and to extend over the shoulders. Personally I like to see all the different colours and for most women I suppose when you grow up in a society like this it is the norm for them to dress so.




Yes I think we are all aware that the hijab is a religious dress code but it is the niqab that has many people in a quandary.. is it religious garb or not?


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## Pomegranite

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes I think we are all aware that the hijab is a religious dress code but it is the niqab that has many people in a quandary.. is it religious garb or not?


There is a difference if opinion, some believe it is obligatory and others believe it is recommended. Also to those who say that women only wear niqab bc they are pressured, that is not true in vast majority of cases. I know many women who were actually pressured by family to take off the niqab when they choose to wear it. I also know many revert women who choose to wear it.


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## expatagogo

I know lots and lots of Egyptian women that are willing to cover up whatever is necessary in order to get married.


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## jojo

Eco-Mariner said:


> Happy New Year to all forum moderators. You are doing a splendid job.
> 
> I would like to ask a couple of questions to jojo's point _"ideologies etc come from ancient laws regarding the environment that they were living in at the time"_ which may add confusion.....
> 
> If the rest of the world is living in the 21st Century, then why would these cultures require the proceeds from tourism and International trade? Don't they like the benefits from it?
> 
> Or would they prefer to go back to poverty and the conditions of the middle ages these ideologies came from? Surely they cannot have it both ways?
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


I agree and I dont know the answer. Thats something that Egypt needs to wrestle with. Cos I guess there are similarities, 100 years ago in the UK, you did not go on the beach in bikinis, speedoes, thongs, topless......and lets face it, can you imagine how those Victorians would have reacted if someone had?? However, we've progressed, evolved and accepted the changes, but that didnt happen overnight. 

I dont have any answers, just observations from afar!! 

It also has to be said that the stereotype of holdays in for example, Spain (and I love the place) hasnt set a very good example to muslim countries of how holiday resorts work when too much alcohol, sun and flesh is freely available - thats perhaps something that they're trying to avoid and rightly so IMO

Jo xxx


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## PaulAshton

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes I think we are all aware that the hijab is a religious dress code but it is the niqab that has many people in a quandary.. is it religious garb or not?


I think as in any religion it is open to interpretation and even muslims debate about it, you only need to look around Egypt to see variance in style of dress, it is mainly practiced by muslims who follow the Wahabi beliefs, it's the same way you get people who interpret the bible not to celebrate Christmas and birthday 

Society also dictates to what is acceptable like women who shave armpits and legs, something I have no objection to, in the West, the practice began for cosmetic reasons around 1915 in the United States and United Kingdom but removal of the hair from the underarms was part of a collection of hygienic or cosmetic practices recommended by Prophet Muhammad (570-632) as consistent with Fitra for both men and women and has since usually been regarded as a requirement by most Muslims. (I discovered that gem on Wikipedia when I was investigating self waxing and the wonders of Middle East sugaring  )

People who say covering the face is not required will make reference to the use of the word khimar in the Qur'an, and say that today's modern khimar does not cover the face, and argue that khimar has never referred to the covering of the face, but only to that of the hair, neck, and bosoms. 

Surat Al-'Ahzab [33:59] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????

_Sahih International
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful._

There is also an Islamic Dictionary where you can look the word niqab up and it will reference the hadith or Q'uran

http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=niqab

_From Sahih Bukhari 6:282

'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): 'They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,' was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."

Although the majority of Muslim women don't wear the niqab, there is nothing wrong with wearing it. It is not a mandatory (wajib) part of hijab by the views of the majority of scholars"_

I think what might seem "weird" to us is not to them and like wise things that are normal to us are weird to them, ethos, culture and language are very diverse.

There is also an psychological aspect that many people are afraid of the unknown and not seeing someone's face and expression can be intimidating to those not used to it probably the same way when my mother is on the bus and get's edgy when someone with facial piercings sits next to her

Remember Darth Vader looks scary because you can't see his face :eyebrows:

Personally I could care less if people wear a niqab or not, it has it's practical side I suppose, you don't have to debate what to wear and it never goes out of style, with 4 wives would you really want the expense of kitting them out with designer clothes and shoes? :eyebrows:


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## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> I agree and I dont know the answer. Thats something that Egypt needs to wrestle with. Cos I guess there are similarities, 100 years ago in the UK, you did not go on the beach in bikinis, speedoes, thongs, topless......and lets face it, can you imagine how those Victorians would have reacted if someone had?? However, we've progressed, evolved and accepted the changes, but that didnt happen overnight.
> 
> I dont have any answers, just observations from afar!!
> 
> It also has to be said that the stereotype of holdays in for example, Spain (and I love the place) hasnt set a very good example to muslim countries of how holiday resorts work when too much alcohol, sun and flesh is freely available - thats perhaps something that they're trying to avoid and rightly so IMO
> 
> Jo xxx




Ahhh Spain Years ago I always used to stay in the Marbella Beach Club or the Punto Romana which was full of drunken arabs and women of near nakedness..these are probably the same men that are trying to keep Egypt from going down the same road


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## MaidenScotland

PaulAshton said:


> I think as in any religion it is open to interpretation and even muslims debate about it, you only need to look around Egypt to see variance in style of dress, it is mainly practiced by muslims who follow the Wahabi beliefs, it's the same way you get people who interpret the bible not to celebrate Christmas and birthday
> 
> Society also dictates to what is acceptable like women who shave armpits and legs, something I have no objection to, in the West, the practice began for cosmetic reasons around 1915 in the United States and United Kingdom but removal of the hair from the underarms was part of a collection of hygienic or cosmetic practices recommended by Prophet Muhammad (570-632) as consistent with Fitra for both men and women and has since usually been regarded as a requirement by most Muslims. (I discovered that gem on Wikipedia when I was investigating self waxing and the wonders of Middle East sugaring  )
> 
> People who say covering the face is not required will make reference to the use of the word khimar in the Qur'an, and say that today's modern khimar does not cover the face, and argue that khimar has never referred to the covering of the face, but only to that of the hair, neck, and bosoms.
> 
> Surat Al-'Ahzab [33:59] - The Holy Qur'an - ?????? ??????
> 
> _Sahih International
> O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful._
> 
> There is also an Islamic Dictionary where you can look the word niqab up and it will reference the hadith or Q'uran
> 
> http://www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=niqab
> 
> _From Sahih Bukhari 6:282
> 
> 'Aisha used to say: "When (the Verse): 'They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,' was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces."
> 
> Although the majority of Muslim women don't wear the niqab, there is nothing wrong with wearing it. It is not a mandatory (wajib) part of hijab by the views of the majority of scholars"_
> 
> I think what might seem "weird" to us is not to them and like wise things that are normal to us are weird to them, ethos, culture and language are very diverse.
> 
> There is also an psychological aspect that many people are afraid of the unknown and not seeing someone's face and expression can be intimidating to those not used to it probably the same way when my mother is on the bus and get's edgy when someone with facial piercings sits next to her
> 
> Remember Darth Vader looks scary because you can't see his face :eyebrows:
> 
> Personally I could care less if people wear a niqab or not, it has it's practical side I suppose, you don't have to debate what to wear and it never goes out of style, with 4 wives would you really want the expense of kitting them out with designer clothes and shoes? :eyebrows:




Of course it is open to debate but until Islamic scholars agree and call it one or the other then there will always be this quandary. Women who dress with the niqab and the men who like her too often cite it is religious dress need to be told it is one or the other.
This is my national garb
This I wear for religious reasons.
It cant be both.

I am quite happy to wear the abaya and have done so whilst in Saudi Arabia.. keeps you clean.


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> I know lots and lots of Egyptian women that are willing to cover up whatever is necessary in order to get married.




What a carry on...


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## hhaddad

This is why when you book a hotel in Sharm and Hurghada it says not for Egyptian passport holders. If you have been to the beaches in Agamy and Alex in the summer you will see why. All the women swimming in there clothes!


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## Sonrisa

First of all we are not talking about people who settle in Egypt that yes, should be culturally cautious and comform with the norms of the country and be modest to a certain degree when in public. We are talking about spending tourist that pay to have a holiday in the sun for a week or two and that shouldn't really be asked to refrain from wearing a bikini or having a drink. 

I understand that Egyptians have the right to impose whichever law that reflects their cultural/religious values, and if that includes banning bikinis and booze, so be it. But then their tourism industry and revenue will suffer accordingly, which is the main source of work and livehood for many in the red sea area. How many will pay to for a beach holiday when you are not allowed to have a drink or wear a bikini?

THe industry has suffered quite a lot in recent times. Whichever form of government comes next should be focusing in attracting visitors, not scaring them off. Or else they'll bring more misery and poverty and things are bad enough as they are. 

The resorts in the Red Sea have been quite succesful at avoiding the "costa del Sol" screw up by keeping the prices of alcohol high and avoiding "all incluisives" that includes alcoholic drinks. THey have sun all year round, in fact this should be their peak season. Instead their occupancy levels at some is no more than 50%. YOu should see that percentage coming down if the islamist make things difficult. The effect in the normal working people will be devastating.


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## PaulAshton

Sonrisa said:


> The resorts in the Red Sea have been quite succesful at avoiding the "costa del Sol" screw up by keeping the prices of alcohol high and avoiding "all incluisives" .


All inclusive here in Sharm is an issue because people often do not leave the hotels to spend money in the shops.

Price of alcohol is not high and is stronger than the UK, alco pops can be up to 10% and cost 13LE a bottle

1 litre of ID Vodka 40% is 100LE, cheaper than the UK

Beer when drinking out is 9LE - 12LE a pint

The only alcohol more expensive are import brand label...

The only reason Sharm has avoided 18 - 30 crowd is these people go to places like Ibiza, Tenerife etc which have cheaper self catering packages that sleep 4 - 6 young people and only approx 3 hours and 20 mins on the plane from most major airports compared to about 5 hrs to here.

It's also illegal here to carry bottles of booze in public


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## CatMandoo

hhaddad said:


> This is why when you book a hotel in Sharm and Hurghada it says not for Egyptian passport holders. If you have been to the beaches in Agamy and Alex in the summer you will see why. All the women swimming in there clothes!


Are you saying hotels in Sharm and Hurghada don't allow Egyptian Passport holders?

Also, there are 2 types of All Inclusive, soft and hard. Soft does not include alcohol, hard does.


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## hhaddad

CatMandoo said:


> Are you saying hotels in Sharm and Hurghada don't allow Egyptian Passport holders?


Just have a look at the travel agencies on the net like hotels4u.com & co it's written No Egyptian Passport holders.


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## CatMandoo

hhaddad said:


> Just have a look at the travel agencies on the net like hotels4u.com & co it's written No Egyptian Passport holders.


That ONLY applies to the rate. As I have stated earlier on another post, Egyptian passport holders get a LOWER rate.

Do you seriously think that NO Egyptian would be allowed in any Red Sea Resort?? LOL


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## hhaddad

CatMandoo said:


> That ONLY applies to the rate. As I have stated earlier on another post, Egyptian passport holders get a LOWER rate.
> 
> Do you seriously think that NO Egyptian would be allowed in any Red Sea Resort?? LOL


I have seen it that the hotels prefer foreigners and Egyptians can't get all inclusive and the rates for Egyptians are much higher except at the moment because the lack of foreigners they are concentrating a little on local tourism but it's not the same quality of service.


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## CatMandoo

hhaddad said:


> I have seen it that the hotels prefer foreigners and Egyptians can't get all inclusive and the rates for Egyptians are much higher except at the moment because the lack of foreigners they are concentrating a little on local tourism but it's not the same quality of service.


Have no idea where you stay, but in all my years here, and trips to Sharm and Hurghada, I have never once experienced any of this, nor any of my family members. All inclusive and top notch service. Have even been upgraded to suites (free of cost) with just a little nudging. 


Granted this last year, I have noticed some of the open buffets were slightly lacking, only because occupancy is so low.

Egyptian residents are given a lower rate for just about everything in this country. Train fares, buses, Hotels, Tourist attractions, entrance fees to just about everything. That is a fact.


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## PaulAshton

I know for a fact of at least 5 Egyptian passport holders staying at hotels in Sharm because my Egyptian friend had them over at his house to visit and for dinner - how they arranged it I have no idea, they might have had contacts..and the price was what I would define as "good value"

Egyptian's (and Saudi's )do also come to Sharm for Eid, El Mercato and Naama I saw them with my own eyes wandering around


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## CatMandoo

PaulAshton said:


> I know for a fact of at least 5 Egyptian passport holders staying at hotels in Sharm because my Egyptian friend had them over at his house to visit and for dinner - how they arranged it I have no idea, they might have had contacts..and the price was what I would define as "good value"
> 
> Egyptian's (and Saudi's )do also come to Sharm for Eid, El Mercato and Naama I saw them with my own eyes wandering around


They just go to any travel agent Paul. Very easy. Some hotels, you can book directly, but most won't offer the lower price you can get from a travel agent, they will tell you to use the agent.

BTW - How could you tell the difference between the Saudi's and Egyptians?


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## PaulAshton

MaidenScotland said:


> I am quite happy to wear the abaya and have done so whilst in Saudi Arabia.. keeps you clean.


I can boast I probably have the best eccentric gold and white galabeya in all of Sharm, tailor made and very intricate with hand embroidery all for 300LE 

Only ever wore it to the bank and carrefour because I was bored now it hangs in the wardrobe don't know if there was a look of shock or horror 

Ironing that piece of tourist tacky sheet was a nightmare and I am not allowed out in it anymore as it generates laughter in the household....I would probably get beaten up as it looks a total 'pee' take


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## MaidenScotland

CatMandoo said:


> They just go to any travel agent Paul. Very easy. Some hotels, you can book directly, but most won't offer the lower price you can get from a travel agent, they will tell you to use the agent.
> 
> BTW - How could you tell the difference between the Saudi's and Egyptians?




Very easy to tell the difference.. Arabs generally look different for a start plus Saudi arabic is different to Egyptian. As a Brit we are pretty good at guessing peoples nationalities just by looking.. quite common practise when we are on holiday.


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## Eco-Mariner

A common practice in the UK might I add... Sometimes it's called "spot the white man"


Eco.


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## PaulAshton

CatMandoo said:


> They just go to any travel agent Paul. Very easy. Some hotels, you can book directly, but most won't offer the lower price you can get from a travel agent, they will tell you to use the agent.
> 
> BTW - How could you tell the difference between the Saudi's and Egyptians?


All Egyptians used to all look the same when I came

Mainly the way they dress and look, never could before and *sometimes* tell if someone is from upper or lower Egypt by the hair (curly or straight) and colour of skin, Copts are sometimes but not always slightly lighter, some have the Coptic tattoo some don't and some people from Alexandria also look lighter, I have also seen Egyptians with blue or grey eyes and sandy blonde hair

Maybe it's my imagination but I also think there are quite a few Egyptian men who are of a slighter smaller build than Europeans, every so often you come across a very tall one..

Quite a bit of variance when you study them :confused2:

...and I go on about people who stare at me


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## marenostrum

Eco-Mariner said:


> A common practice in the UK might I add... Sometimes it's called "spot the white man"
> 
> 
> Eco.


Are there any white men left in the UK? 

There are more grizzly bears in Canada than white men in the UK.:ranger:


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## PaulAshton

marenostrum said:


> Are there any white men left in the UK?
> 
> There are more grizzly bears in Canada than white men in the UK.:ranger:


Oh I won't be going down that rocky infraction road again 

I can say that where I lived the library was full of non-white people and immigrants studying for a better way of life and probably spoke better English than the white bigots in my "every house has a St. George Flag" road who ate curry but stuffed BNP leaflets in the dark of night through the doors


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## marenostrum

PaulAshton said:


> Oh I won't be going down that rocky infraction road again
> 
> I can say that where I lived the library was full of non-white people and immigrants studying for a better way of life and probably spoke better English than the white bigots in my "every house has a St. George Flag" road who ate curry but stuffed BNP leaflets in the dark of night through the doors


And I bet they rented properties in your BTL portofolio too


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## PaulAshton

marenostrum said:


> And I bet they rented properties in your BTL portofolio too


Are you stalking me :confused2:

No they are the type who complain too much about loft insulation when its cold but the complaining stops when they take the BBQ inside to keep warm, oh well at least the carbon monoxide gets rid the mushrooms they keep moaning about caused by the damp :eyebrows:


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## DeadGuy

> Wednesday, Feb. 1st, 2012, 20:03,
> 
> The residents of Monsha'at el Amari, province of Luxor, have blocked the airport road, protesting against the shortage of gas cylinders in their village, Dr. Ahmed Al Tayeb, Sheikh of Al Azhar, was coming from Cairo via Luxor airport to spend the weekend in his hometown Balqrna west of Luxor, his convoy was caught in the road block, along with more than 17 buses, with nearly 700 tourists on board.
> 
> The people of the village said that the gas cylinder crisis has worsened, as they have been unable to get their share of butane over a month ago, Dr. Ahmed Al Tayeb trying to convince the protesters to reopen the road for the tourists.


From the Arabic Al Youm 7 newspaper's website.

Çáíæã ÇáÓÇÈÚ | ÞØÚ ØÑíÞ ãØÇÑ ÇáÃÞÕÑ æÇÍÊÌÇÒ ãæßÈ "ÇáØíÈ" ÈÓÈÈ ÃÒãÉ ÃÓØæÇäÇÊ ÇáÛÇÒ


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## hhaddad

1200 Workers hold a strike on a 85 floating hotels in Luxor threatening the 700 tourists on board and leaving them without food and no way to get back on terra firma.

This is a rough translation from AL- MASRY AL-YOUM arabic printed version.


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## Eco-Mariner

It would be interesting to find out if these are genuine revolutionaries wanting the military rulers (SCAF) out of office. Or are they being led by Selafists activists who want total Sharia law and an end to tourism as Egypt knows it. 


Eco-Mariner.


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## hhaddad

Eco-Mariner said:


> It would be interesting to find out if these are genuine revolutionaries wanting the military rulers (SCAF) out of office. Or are they being led by Selafists activists who want total Sharia law and an end to tourism as Egypt knows it.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


Nothing is clear at this time and I can't find the vstory any where in English.


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## hhaddad

hhaddad said:


> Nothing is clear at this time and I can't find the vstory any where in English.


Finally found something in English.

Lock worker strike closes the Nile _”_ 31 January 2012, 13:01
Anyone out there have any info on how long the Nile will be closed by the lock worker strike at Esna? I am stuck on a boat on the Aswan side supposed to be heading for Luxor. There are 84 boats trapped this side of the lock. Government does not seem to be doing anything to sort things out. This is tragic at a time when tourism is already in deep trouble. And selfishly I would like to enjoy the cruise I have planned for twelve months. Any info gratefully received as there does not seem to be anything on the Egyptian news services and our tour operator is pretty scetchy on what is happening.
Apparently ongoing.



Lock worker strike closes the Nile - Nile River Valley Message Board - TripAdvisor


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## MaidenScotland

Eco-Mariner said:


> It would be interesting to find out if these are genuine revolutionaries wanting the military rulers (SCAF) out of office. Or are they being led by Selafists activists who want total Sharia law and an end to tourism as Egypt knows it.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.




Good point...

Most Egyptians are happy with western tourists as they acknowledge the jobs it creates and the revenue collected.


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## hhaddad

It seems there's a total media blackout on this and to cap it all I found out that the ministers of Tourism and also the minister of Waterways are on holiday. This problem is now in it's 6 day.


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## MaidenScotland

hhaddad said:


> It seems there's a total media blackout on this and to cap it all I found out that the ministers of Tourism and also the minister of Waterways are on holiday. This problem is now in it's 6 day.





Are you sure it is not over?


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## hhaddad

MaidenScotland said:


> Are you sure it is not over?


The locks were open from Friday night.

What I meant is that ok the locks are open but with the backlog it will take several days to get sorted. Meanwhile about 700 tourists have had their holiday ruined.


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## Qsw

Eco-Mariner said:


> It would be interesting to find out if these are genuine revolutionaries wanting the military rulers (SCAF) out of office. Or are they being led by Selafists activists who want total Sharia law and an end to tourism as Egypt knows it.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


I think the revolutionaries, and those who support them, want to see the army out ASAP. They want either the parliament or the 'Tahrir cabinet' in charge during the interim period. I think most liberals now would rather see a civilian government in charge, despite the election results.

With the MB in charge, and the Salafis pressuring them, I can only hope that tourism doesn't get dealt more of a heavy blow than it has already. I have a little faith in the MB that they won't look to crack down too hard, at least initially, but we'll see if that's misplaced. The MB I think are trying to aim for the center, hopefully that turns out to be true. I'm hoping they and the Salafis will focus on issues that are more important to average Egyptians, like security and jobs.


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