# driving licence help!!!



## m.george (Mar 28, 2013)

Hi, Would really appreciate help and advice with the following scenario!

My husband and I are relocating to our house in Spain sometime this year. We have 2 school age children who will attend the local state school. As there are very little job vacancies in Spain my husband will be commuting to the UK to work "month on, month off" as an HGV driver. However, HGV companies in the UK insist on drivers holding a UK driving licence/digi card. 

Does this mean my husband cannot become a resident of Spain as he will not be able to exchange his UK licence for a Spanish one? Is it possible that myself and our children can be resident in Spain even if my husband cannot be???? Can my husband be resident in both places but not have to exchange his licence?? My husband will be paying tax and NI in the UK...and intends to pay any extra tax to Spain if required (double tax treaty). I know this sounds very complicated...thanks for any help/ advice!!
Milly


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

m.george said:


> Hi, Would really appreciate help and advice with the following scenario!
> 
> My husband and I are relocating to our house in Spain sometime this year. We have 2 school age children who will attend the local state school. As there are very little job vacancies in Spain my husband will be commuting to the UK to work "month on, month off" as an HGV driver. However, HGV companies in the UK insist on drivers holding a UK driving licence/digi card.
> 
> ...


:welcome:

as long as he has the plastic licence he doesn't have to change it until the photo expires - even if he's a resident of Spain

if he's never here more than 90 days at a time he doesn't have to register as resident in any case, so can remain resident in the UK, (keep proof of travel though, just in case) although because he is financially supporting you he will be considered tax resident & have to do tax returns, as will you - although it's unlikely any extra tax will need to be paid (atm)

also, as he's paying tax & NI in the UK he can still claim child benefit for the children, and you & the children can be covered for healthcare in Spain by forms S1, which you can get from the DWP in Newcastle


that wasn't so complicated, was it


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have looked into this recently as I wanted to take a UK license with me when I go to Asia.

The DVLA requires that the holder is "normally resident" in the UK. This doesn't seem to be linked to tax residency status.

I would think that as long as you are spending a reasonable amount of time in the UK and have a real address to which the license is registered there should be no issue for the DVLA.

In Spain, having a UK license is not an issue, at least until it requires renewal, so in the short term at least I would say that there is no problem.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

so many families seem to be doing the husband working in the UK thing,while the rest of the family lives in Spain.What sort of life is that. Very disruptive, I should think, and not very good for the spouse in Spain facing any problems . Is it really worth it? I thought the idea was to live a more family orientated,relaxed life style, and this arrangement certainly isn't!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> so many families seem to be doing the husband working in the UK thing,while the rest of the family lives in Spain.What sort of life is that. Very disruptive, I should think, and not very good for the spouse in Spain facing any problems . Is it really worth it? I thought the idea was to live a more family orientated,relaxed life style, and this arrangement certainly isn't!


I don't know about for other families - but my husband had always worked away before we came here, so it didn't make any real difference to us

a lot of families who come here have one partner working offshore - so they'd be used to it, too

however - I have known & know quite a few families recently return/returning soon to the UK, simply because they couldn't get enough work here, so the dad (usually) had returned to the UK for work - the family just about always follows fairly quickly, or sadly, I've seen marriages break up


you have be a certain type of person & have a particular kind of relationship to be able to cope with a 'part time' family


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

m.george said:


> Hi, Would really appreciate help and advice with the following scenario!
> 
> My husband and I are relocating to our house in Spain sometime this year. We have 2 school age children who will attend the local state school. As there are very little job vacancies in Spain my husband will be commuting to the UK to work "month on, month off" as an HGV driver. However, HGV companies in the UK insist on drivers holding a UK driving licence/digi card.
> 
> ...


He has *no need* to change his licence to a Spanish one (if he is resident here ?) until it needs to be changed to comply with the UKregs.
He can take his HGV medical here (I did) and UK company's must accept other EU HGV licences.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

playamonte said:


> He has *no need* to change his licence to a Spanish one (if he is resident here ?) until it needs to be changed to comply with the UKregs.


That's not strictly true.
According to Spanish rules he does not have to change his license, that is true, but according to the DVLA, to hold a UK license the driver must be normally resident in the UK. If they are not normally resident in the UK then they are effectively holding an invalid UK license. 
The Spanish police will of course not be aware of this, but the UK ones might be!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> That's not strictly true.
> According to Spanish rules he does not have to change his license, that is true, but according to the DVLA, to hold a UK license the driver must be normally resident in the UK. If they are not normally resident in the UK then they are effectively holding an invalid UK license.
> The Spanish police will of course not be aware of this, but the UK ones might be!


I think that you are mistaken. I will attempt to find the exact detail from DVLA but suffice to say, I read somewhere on their site that they understand people go abroad and that the address may not, therefore, be their current habitual abode. They have embraced this fact and accepted the consequences .

To summarize, it is not illegal or wrong to have a UK licence whilst driving in Spain - even for Spanish residents!


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

"_UK company's must accept other EU HGV licences_" - you can't have been in business. If a Company doesn't want to accept an EU license it won't and there is very little to make it.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Failure to change the address on your UK driving license to your actual address of residence carries a fine of up to 1000 pounds according to UK legislation. Therfore IT IS illegal to use a UK license with the incorrect address on it.

The OPs husband would be unlucky though if the DVLA were able to prove that his UK address was not his place of residence. So in this case I wouldn't worry. 

But I'm prepared to bet that there are many UK drivers with licenses with addresses of residencies that they no longer visit or even own / rent. This is illegal under UK legislation.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Here are some extracts from EU directive 91/439 EEC:

Article 7:

1. Driving licences shall, moreover, be issued only to those applicants: ... b)who have their normal residence in the territory of the Member State issuing the licence, or can produce evidence that they have been studying there for at least six months. 

Article 8:

1. Where the holder of a valid national driving licence issued by a Member State has taken up normal residence in another Member State, he may request that his driving licence be exchanged for an equivalent licence; it shall be for the Member State effecting the exchange to check, if necessary, whether the licence submitted is in fact still valid. 

For the purpose of this Directive, 'normal' residence means the place where a person usually lives, that is for at least 185 days in each calender year, because of personal and occupational ties, or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties which show close links between that person and the place where he is living. 

However, the normal residence of a person whose occupational ties are in a different place from his personal ties and who consequently lives in turn in different places situated in two or more Member States shall be regarded as being the place of his personal ties, provided that such person returns there regularly. This last condition need not be met where the person is living in a Member State in order to carry out a task of a definite duration. Attendance at a university or school shall not imply transfer of normal residence. 

In summary: A person who is not "normally resident" in the UK cannot hold a UK licence.

A person who moves from one member state to another *may* apply for a change of licence, but given that the UK is free to determine the validity of licences issued in the UK and has decided that the address on the licence is required to be correct (by statute) in order for the licence to be valid, this effectively obliges the licence holder to exchange the licence, given that on moving to another member state it is impossible that the UK licence remains legally valid.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

You misunderstand the role of EU Directives. They are only mandatory on the individual countries. It is the National legislation which makes the rules. 
Currently Spain is being examined by the EU courts for non-compliance with the Directives on recruitment of port workers, Civil guard, real estate tax regime, mortgage laws, evictions and the treaty rules on state aid.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Calas felices said:


> You misunderstand the role of EU Directives.


No I don't, I quoted the EU directive because it is where both Spain and the UK derive their national laws on the matter.



Calas felices said:


> They are only mandatory on the individual countries. It is the National legislation which makes the rules.


Yes, and as I have made clear, whereas Spain's national legislation does not require a holder of a UK licence to immediatley exchange it for a Spanish one (as per the directive), the UK statute means that once the address on the UK licence is not that of normal residence then the holder is in breach of national statutory laws (again this is foreseen in the directive as each member state can set its own rules on licence validity criteria).

[/QUOTE]

The fact that two member states can create laws, both in line with the EU directives, that seemingly contradict each other is a fundamental problem with the EU. But we, as EU citizens are responsible for complying with the laws which apply to us.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> ....
> 
> In summary: A person who is not "normally resident" in the UK cannot hold a UK licence.
> 
> A person who moves from one member state to another *may* apply for a change of licence, but given that the UK is free to determine the validity of licences issued in the UK and has decided that the address on the licence is required to be correct (by statute) in order for the licence to be valid, this effectively obliges the licence holder to exchange the licence, given that on moving to another member state it is impossible that the UK licence remains legally valid.


I don't want to argue on a public forum but you have summarized incorrectly! It does NOT say that one can NOT hold a UK licence - read it again.

What it states is that one has to be resident in the first place to obtain said licence. It goes on to state that one may REQUEST an exchange licence. It does not state that it is mandatory to do so.

From DVLA:

I emailed the DVLA sometime ago about the question of UK addresses on UK licences used by non residents.

They explained that if you were non UK resident they were unable to put a non UK address on your licence. However they also pointed out that it was perfectly OK for a non resident to hold a UK licence with an incorrect address on it and that it was acceptable to them and under EU law.

I further asked what would happen if I returned to the UK temporarily, how would I stand as I would be driving on a UK licence in the UK with an incorrect address which is against UK law.

They confirmed that this was acceptable if I was just visiting but that if I returned permanently I would then have to change my address.

This suggests that if you are non UK resident then there is no point in worrying about getting the UK address changed to another UK address as the address is no longer relevant (at least to the DVLA). There may be other circumstances where it is relevant.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> They explained that if you were non UK resident they were unable to put a non UK address on your licence. However they also pointed out that it was perfectly OK for a non resident to hold a UK licence with an incorrect address on it and that it was acceptable to them and under EU law.


Well, I agree that it's not worth arguing about, but the particular DVLA representative that gave that advice is suggesting that you break a UK statutory law by using a UK driving licence with the incorect residence address on it.

Now, I am not sure about the legal implications of breaking a UK statute in Spain, clearly the fine foreseen by UK law would not be applicable by a Spanish court, but I would not risk the possibility that my licence is invalid.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Overandout said:


> Well, I agree that it's not worth arguing about, but the particular DVLA representative that gave that advice is suggesting that you break a UK statutory law by using a UK driving licence with the incorect residence address on it.
> 
> Now, I am not sure about the legal implications of breaking a UK statute in Spain, clearly the fine foreseen by UK law would not be applicable by a Spanish court, but I would not risk the possibility that my licence is invalid.


I think you're getting a bit confused here, between the validity of a driving licence, and additional administrative requirements by the UK I.e your UK address recorded on the licence.

Firstly if you quote EU directives, then you should make sure it is the right one. 91/439 has been replaced by 2006/126. Article 2 clearly states that "Driving Licences issued by member states shall be mutually recognised" if you read this directive, you will see that it is not a requirement that it contains the address. The Uk chooses to have the address on its licence, and as you rightly point out, it is an offence not to change the address if you are a UK resident. However, this does not affect the validity of the issue of the licence, and consequently it's validity in Spain.

In order to ensure the mutual recognition, and to comply with the EU directive, the wording of the Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 99.5 was amended to include the words "without reasonable cause". 99.5 is the section which says it is an offence not to change your address. This is the wording which allows the DVLA to advise Snikpoh that the address does not need changing, as it not an EU requirement.

So, if you leave the UK and become a resident in Spain, your licence is valid in Spain, even though the address may be wrong. When it expires, and you are still a resident in Spain, then you have to change it for a Spanish licence. However, if you returned to the UK to become a resident, then you would need to change the address, as it would be an offence.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

CapnBilly said:


> I think you're getting a bit confused here, between the validity of a driving licence, and additional administrative requirements by the UK I.e your UK address recorded on the licence.
> 
> Firstly if you quote EU directives, then you should make sure it is the right one. 91/439 has been replaced by 2006/126. Article 2 clearly states that "Driving Licences issued by member states shall be mutually recognised" if you read this directive, you will see that it is not a requirement that it contains the address. The Uk chooses to have the address on its licence, and as you rightly point out, it is an offence not to change the address if you are a UK resident. However, this does not affect the validity of the issue of the licence, and consequently it's validity in Spain.
> 
> ...


Of course I didn't want to give out of date information. The legal resources site I use for work came up with that directive... I hope I don't make a similar mistake at work, its usually very reliable.
One thing though, under the old rules the licence was technically invalid with the "wrong" address, but that appears to be irrelevant now.
Thanks for the correction.


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## el cargador (Feb 26, 2014)

As the UK is part of the European union it must accept foreign driving licences from othe EU countries.I have worked as a HGV driver for 10 years now in Alicante region
,I originally had a UK licence but then changed it to a Spanish one many years ago(there is a trick to getting your Spanish licence easily if you would like to know)
I have read on this Forum some people saying "be careful the rules are different here" "your UK HGV licence won´t be valid" you´ll have to take tests and exams" Total Bulls**t, Spain is part of the EU therefore the rules regarding HGV drivers hours/regulations and licences are the same in UK as in France, Spain or Italy.
Also i was told by an English guy once that "Spanish companies won´t take on English drivers" once again total Rubbish!!! 
Firstly,i presume you speak Spanish? NO i hear you cry,well there`s your first problem and asking for Una beer and un Sandwich de queso when you were on holiday in Ibiza 20 years ago is´nt going to be enough,so if you go into a traffic office and ask for a job he´s just going to shrug his shoulders and grunt at you....so learn some basics before you come.
Secondly,As a foreigner(until you become more fluent) your only option will be to do international driving,and as Spain exports A LOT of fruit,drivers are always in demand especially in the South,but fruit is seasonal as are the drivers ,companies typically have a certain proportion of staff "fixed" and "temporary" contracts,laying off staff when the season ends (July/august) and rehiring Oct/Nov time, so you will need to start asking for work around October,go to companies with a C.V (in Spanish of course)
Typical wages are around 1000€ for the nomina (basic retainer) and 8-10 cents per kilometer (1800€ to 2500€ in the current climate) with 2 extra payments (bonuses) being paid in summer and xmas,and 1 months holiday a year...
hope that clears up some doubts


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have just literally got back from the gestors collecting my Spanish driving license, I changed it because I have had residencia for two years, and have no ties with work in the UK. We still technically have an address in UK, but we are hoping to sell it, and haven't lived at that house since 2007.
My UK license had not expired, I have just Spanish a card license now,may I ask?, does Spain not issue a paper one as well as the card? I had both the paper and card license in the UK, card had the EU symbol on it.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

fergie said:


> I have just literally got back from the gestors collecting my Spanish driving license, I changed it because I have had residencia for two years, and have no ties with work in the UK. We still technically have an address in UK, but we are hoping to sell it, and haven't lived at that house since 2007.
> My UK license had not expired, I have just Spanish a card license now,may I ask?, does Spain not issue a paper one as well as the card? I had both the paper and card license in the UK, card had the EU symbol on it.


Put simply, NO. The UK must phase them out shortly as well.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Put simply, NO. The UK must phase them out shortly as well.


Thank you very much


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Put simply, NO. The UK must phase them out shortly as well.


What happens when you have a spanish licence, go back to the Uk to live. It is legal to drive with the Spanish one for a period, so do you just inform the Dvla of your new address, until the time comes when you change your spanish licence for a UK one?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

extranjero said:


> What happens when you have a spanish licence, go back to the Uk to live. It is legal to drive with the Spanish one for a period, so do you just inform the Dvla of your new address, until the time comes when you change your spanish licence for a UK one?



You can use your Spanish license in UK for up to 2 years. I don't believe that you even have to notify DVLA where you are living.

There's a new piece all about this on their website.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

el cargador said:


> Firstly,i presume you speak Spanish? NO i hear you cry,well there`s your first problem and asking for Una beer and un Sandwich de queso when you were on holiday in Ibiza 20 years ago is´nt going to be enough,so if you go into a traffic office and ask for a job he´s just going *to shrug his shoulders and grunt at you...*.so learn some basics before you come.


"to shrug his shoulders and grunt at you..." which means "B*gger off you dozy Brit git until you can speak Spanish!" - make a note of that, it is your first lesson!


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## el cargador (Feb 26, 2014)

You are right,and i´ve met some ignorant Spanish people,especially waiters..but in their defence i´ve met some very ignorant English people as well.
On a recent trip to UK to unload a lorry i met in Evesham a very rude shunter who told me to F**k off until i got down from my cab(i drive a Spanish truck) and had words with him,and the next day in Manchester a guy who basically shrugged his shoulders and grunted.


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