# Spanish House Prices...Built on Sand?



## StevejR1

I've started a couple of threads on what I believe are the unrealistic prices still being asked for in Spain. I'm still planning to, hopefully, move to Andalucia in the near future, but I'm just getting things sorted....

I've made comments before, that for what they are asking in Spain for some properties, that you can get the same, or even better, in the UK....but without the huge risk involved with buying in Spain, and without the uncertainty of the future economy. And to me that simply doesn't make sense..

As our research continues, my partner likes to watch 'A Place In The Sun' to get an idea of areas, prices, homes etc, and get a feel for what is available in Spain......it was whilst watching one last night that it hit home how today's market got in the state it is!

I'm coming into the market, and into the prospect of moving to Spain, after a huge crash, or rather the crisis as it's called. And the market is a little stagnant/jittery/un confident to say the least!!

But watching last night, a modest villa, very remote, nice, but not a luxury villa by any means, was up for sale for £250k. It was stated that in 2007 it was worth over £600k.......

......£600k!!!!!.....who in their right mind would have paid £600k for that villa must have needed their head read!! Even in 2007 in the UK, £600k would have bought you a very very nice luxury home around here in Norwich, and in most other places I'm pretty sure. Even in London that was a very healthy budget to have had!

Yet in Spain, they were building modest homes, wacking them up for MASSIVELY inflated prices...and amazingly, selling them!....the builders, owners, agents, must have thought all their Christmas' had come at once!!!

I'm amazed that people thought what they were getting was really worth £600k???

So now we move to 2013....and I feel that the market is still clinging onto the insanity of the boom time! Almost like they can't believe that the bubble has burst...or if it has, then surely they can still try the same principle, but with smaller figures???

I think it's time to realise that the bubble has burst...and it has burst worldwide!!....people are short of cash, and more wise with what they've got. People don't get on a plane with a bag of money and common sense, then as soon as they see the sun leave their brains at the airport anymore!

*if they want to sell the properties, then they're going to have to offer good value.....what is being offered today in some areas, and in many circumstances, is far from good value!*

I know I may be talking to the informed...but I was really shocked last night at the sheer lunacy of what people were spending, and I could see how the market of today (... and one I'm trying to enter) is in the mess it is in.

I feel for the owners, I really do. But one of the properties last night had been on for 5 years!!!.....5 years!!!! That's got to tell you that the price is hugely wrong, or the market isn't attracting buyers........maybe the prices being hugely uninviting might be the cause?...maybe if the value out weighed the risk more buyers (like me!!) would be more willing to buy??? ......It's not rocket science is it?

I also feel..and I might be being unfair here, but I'm being totally honest....owners need as much as they can on a sale, to be able to buy a reasonable property in the UK...which is very understandable. But really you can't gauge the value of your property in Spain with the value of a similar property in the UK!! And I'm sure that's what's happening.

For instance...we really like a villa in Andalucia...it's nice, lovely in fact...but if I paid him the asking price, he could then come to the UK and buy my house for LESS and have the same sort of house, a nice house, lovely in fact, in a sort after area, in a lovely part of the world......who would be the winner in that deal, and who would be the mug???

I think it's time the Spanish market woke up to the fact that there aren't as many, if any, mugs walking around with bulging wallets!


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## jojo

"A place in the sun" isnt a good gauge for anything at all - NOTHING - least of all prices. You never know when they were recorded anyway - even if they give a date on the subtitles, very often it was actually recorded a while before.

Apart from that, who know where house prices are going. Apparently they're now rising in the UK??, still dropping in spain. In the end, its about finding a home that you can afford and living. From what I can see, you can wait forever for house prices to settle - its a moving target 

Jo xxx


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## StevejR1

jojo said:


> "A place in the sun" isnt a good gauge for anything at all - NOTHING - least of all prices. You never know when they were recorded anyway - even if they give a date on the subtitles, very often it was actually recorded a while before.
> 
> Apart from that, who know where house prices are going. Apparently they're now rising in the UK??, still dropping in spain. In the end, its about finding a home that you can afford and living. From what I can see, you can wait forever for house prices to settle - its a moving target
> 
> Jo xxx


I think UK prices are starting to rise in some areas, but more realistically are just starting to sell at the prices asked I think. Houses around me have always sold quickly, but recently even here they have been staying on the market for a while...but now they are back to selling quickly again.

As a buyer it is about patience.....I know we're in a good position, but I'm trying to be realistic, but feel I'm fighting against stubbornness /


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## JaneyO

Steve.R said:


> I think UK prices are starting to rise in some areas, but more realistically are just starting to sell at the prices asked I think. Houses around me have always sold quickly, but recently even here they have been staying on the market for a while...but now they are back to selling quickly again.
> 
> As a buyer it is about patience.....I know we're in a good position, but I'm trying to be realistic, but feel I'm fighting against stubbornness /


Round here not much is selling and the Spanish owners have no concept of accepting an offer. A nearby villa was on the market for a long time. Their solution was to RAISE the asking price - guess what- they sold it! The logic was apparently that by doing this they were in the bottom end of one price bracket instead of the top end of another. Crazy! Another neighbour- Italian- asked the estate agent to value the house and was told if you want a quick sale E100k if you're not in a hurry 120k. Don't like that said the owner, put it on for 180k- yes it is still for sale!


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## mrypg9

Steve..it has been said before but...if someone is willing to pay €600k for a property then, yes, it IS worth it .....to that person. There is no true value of a house apart from the building costs which of course include labour, materials, cost of capital to finance the construction etc.
The property, once on the market, is a commodity and its value will be determined by the market.you can't compare the UK property market with that in Spain as there was greater demand in Spain and not only from UK buyers.
The increased demand led to increased supply and price inflation and many purchasers bought on the then obtaining value only to find themselves in negative equity when the bubble burst, as bubbles always do.
The same thing is about to happen in the UK with the Government's daft guaranteed scheme for house buyers.


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## mrypg9

I would also add that so-called'value for money' is one of many factors involved in the purchase of a property. As I said above, value is a subjective concept. I would buy a more expensive house in Estepona over a better appointed house in Norwich because Well, Estepona is Estepona and Norwich, although delightful, is Norwich.


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## oronero

Steve.R said:


> I've started a couple of threads on what I believe are the unrealistic prices still being asked for in Spain. I'm still planning to, hopefully, move to Andalucia in the near future, but I'm just getting things sorted....
> 
> I've made comments before, that for what they are asking in Spain for some properties, that you can get the same, or even better, in the UK....but without the huge risk involved with buying in Spain, and without the uncertainty of the future economy. And to me that simply doesn't make sense..
> 
> As our research continues, my partner likes to watch 'A Place In The Sun' to get an idea of areas, prices, homes etc, and get a feel for what is available in Spain......it was whilst watching one last night that it hit home how today's market got in the state it is!
> 
> I'm coming into the market, and into the prospect of moving to Spain, after a huge crash, or rather the crisis as it's called. And the market is a little stagnant/jittery/un confident to say the least!!
> 
> But watching last night, a modest villa, very remote, nice, but not a luxury villa by any means, was up for sale for £250k. It was stated that in 2007 it was worth over £600k.......
> 
> ......£600k!!!!!.....who in their right mind would have paid £600k for that villa must have needed their head read!! Even in 2007 in the UK, £600k would have bought you a very very nice luxury home around here in Norwich, and in most other places I'm pretty sure. Even in London that was a very healthy budget to have had!


Having lived close to Norwich for three years I would not recommend it to anybody else...it had pretty bad road connections especially if you were relying upon the A11 and personally felt very remote and disconnected from civilization. I had been brought up in West London and have lived in Berkshire, Essex, Middlesex, Norfolk, Suffolk and West Yorkshire. Norfolk by far was the worst for me.



Steve.R said:


> Yet in Spain, they were building modest homes, wacking them up for MASSIVELY inflated prices...and amazingly, selling them!....the builders, owners, agents, must have thought all their Christmas' had come at once!!!
> 
> I'm amazed that people thought what they were getting was really worth £600k???
> 
> So now we move to 2013....and I feel that the market is still clinging onto the insanity of the boom time! Almost like they can't believe that the bubble has burst...or if it has, then surely they can still try the same principle, but with smaller figures???
> 
> I think it's time to realise that the bubble has burst...and it has burst worldwide!!....people are short of cash, and more wise with what they've got. People don't get on a plane with a bag of money and common sense, then as soon as they see the sun leave their brains at the airport anymore!
> 
> *if they want to sell the properties, then they're going to have to offer good value.....what is being offered today in some areas, and in many circumstances, is far from good value!*
> 
> I know I may be talking to the informed...but I was really shocked last night at the sheer lunacy of what people were spending, and I could see how the market of today (... and one I'm trying to enter) is in the mess it is in.
> 
> I feel for the owners, I really do. But one of the properties last night had been on for 5 years!!!.....5 years!!!! That's got to tell you that the price is hugely wrong, or the market isn't attracting buyers........maybe the prices being hugely uninviting might be the cause?...maybe if the value out weighed the risk more buyers (like me!!) would be more willing to buy??? ......It's not rocket science is it?


Ordinary people may be short of cash but there are plenty of people with very deep pockets all around the world, even in Spain. Perhaps the owners of said villas are just trying to reduce their portfolios of property, it does not mean that they have to sell or are in need of the money. 



Steve.R said:


> I also feel..and I might be being unfair here, but I'm being totally honest....owners need as much as they can on a sale, to be able to buy a reasonable property in the UK...which is very understandable. But really you can't gauge the value of your property in Spain with the value of a similar property in the UK!! And I'm sure that's what's happening.
> 
> For instance...we really like a villa in Andalucia...it's nice, lovely in fact...but if I paid him the asking price, he could then come to the UK and buy my house for LESS and have the same sort of house, a nice house, lovely in fact, in a sort after area, in a lovely part of the world......who would be the winner in that deal, and who would be the mug???
> 
> I think it's time the Spanish market woke up to the fact that there aren't as many, if any, mugs walking around with bulging wallets!


If your lovely house, in such a good area and in a lovely part of the world is really that great why move?....it seems that you just like moaning because you are not prepared to pay what people want for their property!

You sound desperate to move into a lifestyle that your pockets may not be deep enough to sustain. Why not look at properties that you can afford and then decide if that living standard is for you in Spain rather than trying to low-ball the prices asked of your dream properties. It would lead to less rants from you and probably help you with your blood pressure!



Steve.R said:


> I think UK prices are starting to rise in some areas, but more realistically are just starting to sell at the prices asked I think. Houses around me have always sold quickly, but recently even here they have been staying on the market for a while...but now they are back to selling quickly again.
> 
> As a buyer it is about patience.....I know we're in a good position, but I'm trying to be realistic, but feel I'm fighting against stubbornness /


I think that you will find that many of the recent sales in the UK are on buy to let mortgages which does not really mean that the market is picking up for ordinary people who are buying a house to live in.

It means that the demand for rented property is increasing and that the commercial mortgages are being taken to take advantage of this increased demand for rental property.


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## MaidenScotland

My daughter paid the asking price for her villa as she thought it was worth it, it was where she wanted, what she wanted in terms of land and has never regretted it as she said I bought it to be my home not an investment. 
I paid the asking price for my house from a builder.. the only stipulation being that he fixed something for me. again I had the same thoughts as my daughter

If it is what you want, where you want and you can afford it, is it not worth the money?


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## StevejR1

oronero said:


> Having lived close to Norwich for three years I would not recommend it to anybody else...it had pretty bad road connections especially if you were relying upon the A11 and personally felt very remote and disconnected from civilization. I had been brought up in West London and have lived in Berkshire, Essex, Middlesex, Norfolk, Suffolk and West Yorkshire. Norfolk by far was the worst for me.
> 
> I was born in north London myself, and moved to London 23 years ago. If you liked London, then Norfolk isn't London. What it is a quiet part of the world, and that is its appeal!
> As regards road networks..yes they're not good, but I work nationwide and I get by...and to be honest the A11/M11 is the best connection from Norfolk...go north on the A47/A17 and I could understand your gripe!
> As regards recommending the place?...you are the first I've heard of that wouldn't.
> 
> Ordinary people may be short of cash but there are plenty of people with very deep pockets all around the world, even in Spain. Perhaps the owners of said villas are just trying to reduce their portfolios of property, it does not mean that they have to sell or are in need of the money.
> 
> I agree....but if you WANT to sell, then it's going to be at what buyers are prepared to pay, not what owners want/need.
> 
> 
> If your lovely house, in such a good area and in a lovely part of the world is really that great why move?....it seems that you just like moaning because you are not prepared to pay what people want for their property!
> 
> I am moving for a retirement/better life scenario, and if I'm honest Norfolk isn't a bad option for that. But a long term injury makes the hot climate means that retirement will be better spent in Spain...plus I love Andalucia.
> As regards me "moaning because I'm not prepared to pay what they want for their property".....it seems I am not alone!....we have found three gorgeous properties.....all been on the market for two years or more!!!!!!!! So it's not just my opinion is it? It's simple economics...market value is what something has *sold* for, not what it is *for sale* for!
> 
> You sound desperate to move into a lifestyle that your pockets may not be deep enough to sustain. Why not look at properties that you can afford and then decide if that living standard is for you in Spain rather than trying to low-ball the prices asked of your dream properties. It would lead to less rants from you and probably help you with your blood pressure!
> 
> I have funds available. It is how much I am prepared to *risk* those funds on a property that may be worth substantially less in 6 months because the sale price was inflated, in an economic climate in disarray, or spend unnecessarily high on a purchase price set by a greedy/desperate owner/agent trying to sustain his future (which I totally understand in the case of the owner) but in doing so jeopardise my own future!
> 
> 
> I think that you will find that many of the recent sales in the UK are on buy to let mortgages which does not really mean that the market is picking up for ordinary people who are buying a house to live in.
> 
> That is rubbish, and plucked from nowhere.
> 
> It means that the demand for rented property is increasing and that the commercial mortgages are being taken to take advantage of this increased demand for rental property.


Rental properties increased because nobody could afford the mortgages/deposits..now mortgages are very hard to obtain...that is why rentals are popular.
House sales have picked up because the prices have become more *realistic*, added to a slight increase in market confidence.


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## StevejR1

JaneyO said:


> Round here not much is selling and the Spanish owners have no concept of accepting an offer. A nearby villa was on the market for a long time. Their solution was to RAISE the asking price - guess what- they sold it! The logic was apparently that by doing this they were in the bottom end of one price bracket instead of the top end of another. Crazy! Another neighbour- Italian- asked the estate agent to value the house and was told if you want a quick sale E100k if you're not in a hurry 120k. Don't like that said the owner, put it on for 180k- yes it is still for sale!


This is the stubbornness I mean.


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## StevejR1

MaidenScotland said:


> My daughter paid the asking price for her villa as she thought it was worth it, it was where she wanted, what she wanted in terms of land and has never regretted it as she said I bought it to be my home not an investment.
> I paid the asking price for my house from a builder.. the only stipulation being that he fixed something for me. again I had the same thoughts as my daughter
> 
> If it is what you want, where you want and you can afford it, is it not worth the money?


I agree that we will be buying a home, not an investment....but if I see a house £100k dearer than a similar property down the road...then wouldn't that be foolish to buy it??....I think so.

That's what you're up against sometimes in the Spanish market at the moment


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## davexf

Hi Steve.R 

To be blunt, 

Leave your English head at home and purchase a Spanish head when you come to Spain. 

Anything else will give you a heart attack - the Spanish have a way of life that is MUCH better for me - less stress, hassle and slower pace of life. 

Why else would you want to live here ??? 

Davexf


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## tarot650

Steve.R said:


> I agree that we will be buying a home, not an investment....but if I see a house £100k dearer than a similar property down the road...then wouldn't that be foolish to buy it??....I think so.
> 
> That's what you're up against sometimes in the Spanish market at the moment


Sadly that's part and parcel of coming to live here.You either like it or lump it.One thing is for sure I can't see many estate agents benig heart broken and crying in their cerveza if you don't come.There will always be other people.Not in their masses like there once was but still some wanting to come and live here.If you are so sure about prices come over,buy a local and open an estate agents and see if you can do any better.Venga,mas tarde.sB.


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## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> Rental properties increased because nobody could afford the mortgages/deposits..now mortgages are very hard to obtain...that is why rentals are popular.
> House sales have picked up because the prices have become more *realistic*, added to a slight increase in market confidence.


You just don't get it, do you? There is no such thing as a realistic price apart from what a buyer will pay. I owned rental properties in the UK, one of which I bought for £7k and which at various times was valued at £30k, £50k and the final sale price at just under £80k. Which was the realistic price? The price according to the offer I was willing to accept.

The reason house sales have picked up is almost entirely due to the govt. guarantee scheme. This increase in demand has as expected in a free market led to an increase in asking price. Now that is realistic!


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## jp1

Steve, I hate to give you bad news, but in my opinion property prices are probably as low as they are going to get in Spain.

I will qualify that by saying I mean the price of properties being sold by realistic private sellers and there are many of them around. Banks and developers are asking inflated prices in relation to private sellers, but of course they control the lending market and will only lend on their properties. You have to be a cash buyer to take advantage of private sellers.

I really don't think you are going to see prices very much lower than, as I said, those of realistic private sellers. Prices may stay at these levels for a few more years and be eroded by inflation somewhat. But if you are expecting to see falls of 15%~30% then you will be disappointed.


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## mrypg9

jp1 said:


> Steve, I hate to give you bad news, but in my opinion property prices are probably as low as they are going to get in Spain.
> 
> I will qualify that by saying I mean the price of properties being sold by realistic private sellers and there are many of them around. Banks and developers are asking inflated prices in relation to private sellers, but of course they control the lending market and will only lend on their properties. You have to be a cash buyer to take advantage of private sellers.
> 
> I really don't think you are going to see prices very much lower than, as I said, those of realistic private sellers. Prices may stay at these levels for a few more years and be eroded by inflation somewhat. But if you are expecting to see falls of 15%~30% then you will be disappointed.



It all depends on how desperate people are to sell 
Some analysts think the market has yet to bottom out.


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## Megsmum

We are planning to move at the end of the year. We have had a few trips to view, and are planning to visit Extremadura next month. Spain is a HUGE place, with properties all over to suit all different needs.

We have our budget we know what we want. Basically we are moving to Spain to live for ever, the caveat being, who knows what life will throw.

If we see a location that we like, be it Cordoba, Seville or Extremadura and we find a house that we want to live in, that gives us the lifestyle we are looking for, then if it is 50,000 euros great if it is 100 euros great - the house is worth what it is worth to me, not the person selling, they will either say yes or no to any offer made, because what they need is what they think it is worth, if a buyer and seller agrees then the house is worth the final agreed price! 

Spain is not the UK, I do not think you can move there, especially now looking at a home as an investment, as I have said, we do not know what life will throw, but we are certainly not going to buy a house because it may or may not make money, we are going to buy a house because it suits us, is legal and has no issues around it. They are the things that I think about more, than the over optimistic valuations. If you think it is overvalued then don't buy it, buy something else, but as someone who has never lived, bought in Spain, i would not know if it was over valued, I would only what it is worth to me.

We are looking at about 10 houses, ranging in price by 60,000 euros, each one will be different and offer us various different opportunities, the one that we like the most will have an offer made either it is accepted or not end of story.

:llama:


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## Megsmum

Steve.R said:


> This is the stubbornness I mean.



This is not stubborness this is Spanish and this is the reality for the person selling



> For instance...we really like a villa in Andalucia...it's nice, lovely in fact...but if I paid him the asking price, he could then come to the UK and buy my house for LESS and have the same sort of house, a nice house, lovely in fact, in a sort after area, in a lovely part of the world......who would be the winner in that deal, and who would be the mug???


So you only buy a house from someone providing they are not going to out do you in the " who owns the best house " Pi****ing contest.

OH dear


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## StevejR1

soulboy said:


> Sadly that's part and parcel of coming to live here.You either like it or lump it.One thing is for sure I can't see many estate agents benig heart broken and crying in their cerveza if you don't come.There will always be other people.Not in their masses like there once was but still some wanting to come and live here.If you are so sure about prices come over,buy a local and open an estate agents and see if you can do any better.Venga,mas tarde.sB.


I can see that I've ruffled a few feathers here...

If I'm expected, as a buyer, to just accept that a property is €100k over-priced...which is to be honest an absolutely ridiculous suggestion....and buy it, cos that's the way it is...

...then I would suggest, more realistically, in my humble opinion, that if someone has had their property on the market for 2-5 years(!!!!), then maybe they should reconsider their price (maybe to the tune of €100k) rather than wait for me to become so frustrated I just buy it anyway (not going to happen).

I will most probably buy in Spain....but I'm willing to be patient, and take the time to find the right location, the right home, and at the right price. In the meantime they'll be a lot of properties that I'll dismiss because they are priced unrealistically.

As regards me trying to do a better job of the estate agents.....I feel for both the owners and the agents. I'm not heartless, I'm frustrated!

Both parties are trying to achieve the best price...the owners for their own security and future plans, the agents for their business.
The owners I sympathise with, and although some agents might be motivated by greed (although every agent I've dealt with up to now has been straight enough) I think a lot of the time their hands are tied by owners refusing to budge on a price set in their head, not one set in the marketplace.

I stand by what I've said.....if the market is to start actually selling to buyers, then it needs to start to get realistic. If properties were still selling in large numbers then I'd be totally wrong in my opinion..but they're not.

It was said that there's still a lot of people with money...I guess there are...but not a lot of them are investing that money in Spain at the moment, and I'm pretty sure that's because of the risk element in doing so.


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## xabiaxica

Steve.R said:


> I can see that I've ruffled a few feathers here...
> 
> If I'm expected, as a buyer, to just accept that a property is €100k over-priced...which is to be honest an absolutely ridiculous suggestion....and buy it, cos that's the way it is...
> 
> ...then I would suggest, more realistically, in my humble opinion, that if someone has had their property on the market for 2-5 years(!!!!), *then maybe they should reconsider their price *(maybe to the tune of €100k) rather than wait for me to become so frustrated I just buy it anyway (not going to happen).
> 
> I will most probably buy in Spain....but I'm willing to be patient, and take the time to find the right location, the right home, and at the right price. In the meantime they'll be a lot of properties that I'll dismiss because they are priced unrealistically.
> 
> As regards me trying to do a better job of the estate agents.....I feel for both the owners and the agents. I'm not heartless, I'm frustrated!
> 
> Both parties are trying to achieve the best price...the owners for their own security and future plans, the agents for their business.
> The owners I sympathise with, and although some agents might be motivated by greed (although every agent I've dealt with up to now has been straight enough) I think a lot of the time their hands are tied by owners refusing to budge on a price set in their head, not one set in the marketplace.
> 
> I stand by what I've said.....if the market is to start actually selling to buyers, then it needs to start to get realistic. If properties were still selling in large numbers then I'd be totally wrong in my opinion..but they're not.
> 
> It was said that there's still a lot of people with money...I guess there are...but not a lot of them are investing that money in Spain at the moment, and I'm pretty sure that's because of the risk element in doing so.



maybe - but maybe they're happy enough to wait until they get the price they want.......

not everyone is desperate to sell - & those who are will, or have, dropped the asking price


as we've said over&over&over&over&over&over&over&over............. a property is worth what you're prepared to pay for it

and someone else might be prepared to pay more than you - then that's what the property is worth


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## mrypg9

Steve.R Iif the market is to start actually selling to buyers said:


> But properties are selling, in some areas such as Marbella. The truly rich have got richer during the crisis and risk is immaterial for such people.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's the depth of your pocket not the breadth of your sense of what is and isn't realistic that determines what you buy.


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## StevejR1

cambio said:


> So you only buy a house from someone providing they are not going to out do you in the " who owns the best house " Pi****ing contest.
> 
> OH dear


Don't be so silly!...this is as a comparison!

If I had say €300k to buy a house with, where is the greatest risk be? In the UK, or Spain? The UK market, although still slow, is starting to pick up. In Spain the market is stagnant, and the economic future very uncertain. They are the facts.....so would it not be fair to be surprised that 'the same house' located in Spain was dearer than in the UK? Just as you'd be surprised that 'the same house' in Mayfair was the same price as in Norwich, or Birmingham, or Liverpool etc...

What I'm trying to say that a lot of owners are trying to get back to Spain to get away from the unfortunate climate circumstances has put on them, but then pricing their houses like that climate doesn't exist.


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## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> You just don't get it, do you? There is no such thing as a realistic price apart from what a buyer will pay. I owned rental properties in the UK, one of which I bought for £7k and which at various times was valued at £30k, £50k and the final sale price at just under £80k. Which was the realistic price? The price according to the offer I was willing to accept.
> 
> The reason house sales have picked up is almost entirely due to the govt. guarantee scheme. This increase in demand has as expected in a free market led to an increase in asking price. Now that is realistic!


The value of your property went from £7k through to £80k from the effects of inflation and market value.....that has nothing to do with being realistic. That is set by market sales. When you asked £80k, and sold, you must have been being realistic in your valuation.....if you'd been asking £100k would it have sold??? Doubtful, because it would have been *unrealistic*


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## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> The value of your property went from £7k through to £80k from the effects of inflation and market value.....that has nothing to do with being realistic. That is set by market sales. When you asked £80k, and sold, you must have been being realistic in your valuation.....if you'd been asking £100k would it have sold??? Doubtful, because it would have been *unrealistic*


You miss the point, though. All these prices might have been realistic had the property been for sale at the time,as the final,sale price was.
It was realistic because someone with the means to purchase it thought it was 'worth'the asking price.


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## StevejR1

jp1 said:


> Steve, I hate to give you bad news, but in my opinion property prices are probably as low as they are going to get in Spain.
> 
> I will qualify that by saying I mean the price of properties being sold by realistic private sellers and there are many of them around. Banks and developers are asking inflated prices in relation to private sellers, but of course they control the lending market and will only lend on their properties. You have to be a cash buyer to take advantage of private sellers.
> 
> I really don't think you are going to see prices very much lower than, as I said, those of realistic private sellers. Prices may stay at these levels for a few more years and be eroded by inflation somewhat. But if you are expecting to see falls of 15%~30% then you will be disappointed.


It's interesting that you say that jp....one estate agent has told me the same...I wonder why? But yet the market is still dropping quarter on quarter...that's not my opinion, it's based on the latest figures.

I will be a cash buyer, and I know that puts me in a good position. I agree there are a lot of realistically priced properties out there...these are the ones selling...but there are many more unrealistically priced ones that will never sell.


----------



## crookesey

The Brits generally leave their brains back home when buying property abroad, would they ever consider any of the following when buying in the UK?

1) Not having a survey conducted when paying cash.

2) Paying deposit money direct to an agent.

3) Agreeing to dealing in the 'black money'.

4) Buying something without services being connected.

5) Believing that they can rent out self contained apartments in villas for daft amounts of money.

People stating that the market has bottomed actually mean that they hope it has bottomed, none of us know what next years values will be. A lot of the very cheap properties don't have central heating, double glazing, off street parking, shutters, security grills etc; of course they are cheap as they are ill conceived rubbish. 

Spain will need a good few years to get out of the mess that it finds itself in, IMHO is will be a buyers market for a good few years.


----------



## Pazcat

When we first started looking for a place to buy we found a lovely place with a huge plot of land which wouldn't of been out of place at 3/4 of a mill anywhere else in western society. They wanted roughly 200K and it was valued at twice that plus it had been on the market for a while. Thing is I wouldn't of paid 200K for it although it was worth every penny.
We thought lets get here and wait and see if the price drops, and it has quite significantly and I suspect they would take an offer not too far off. Still I'd feel bad about making that offer but at the end of the day it's not my problem.

Unfortunately since being here we have discovered the location is just too far out to consider, shame but nevermind there a loads of properties around and cheaper too.
No way in the world would we put 300K into a property here, not because of market value or any other rubbish like that but purely because you'd be a muppet to pay it.
Anymore than 125K and you've been taken.

Still at this point we don't know if we'll buy, we will certainly look but the idea of a villa on Crete is starting to look alright.
I don't know I suppose the market value I see here is nowhere near the value you are seeing and more importantly we don't care about the market value in the future or the past only the present and the prices don't have much further to drop or they'll be giving them away.

The moral of the story?
There is none, it's just a waffle.


----------



## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> You miss the point, though. All these prices were indeed'realistic', or rather the final,sale price was.
> It was realistic because someone with the means to purchase it thought it was 'worth'the asking price.


They were realistic because similar properties, in a similar area, were selling for a similar price...that made the buyer prepared to pay the price. It was realistically priced to the market value at the time. If it hadn't been it wouldn't have sold.

In Spain are the prices based on what had sold locally recently??? I'm getting the impression it's not!....mostly it's based on the price per m2, or the price reduction of the value in 2008, or what the owner needs to cover his costs. Am I wrong to say that's not how a market value of anything is calculated??

Market value is based, as you say, on what someone is prepared to pay. As a buyer with cash in hand I'm feeling more and more, especially after this thread, that what I pay should be based on what somebody tells me, not on recent sales. If those properties have gone unsold for over two years then I'd be a fool to ignore the strong position that I'm in.


----------



## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> It all depends on how desperate people are to sell
> Some analysts think the market has yet to bottom out.


Unfortunately that is true....and I'm finding hard to be hard, when I know how desperate some of these owners are. I don't want to take advantage of them, but if they're overvaluing their properties by €50-100k then it makes my first offer seem almost insulting!

I don't think there's any doubt that the market hasn't bottomed out. It may have picked up slightly, but it's not levelled out as yet I don't think.


----------



## StevejR1

xabiachica said:


> as we've said over&over&over&over&over&over&over&over............. a property is worth what you're prepared to pay for it
> 
> and someone else might be prepared to pay more than you - then that's what the property is worth


And as I've said over and over and over again.....if the majority of properties have been on the market for over two years then where are the people who are prepared to pay it???????


----------



## oronero

Pazcat said:


> No way in the world would we put 300K into a property here, not because of market value or any other rubbish like that but purely because you'd be a muppet to pay it.
> Anymore than 125K and you've been taken.
> 
> Still at this point we don't know if we'll buy, we will certainly look but the idea of a villa on Crete is starting to look alright.
> I don't know I suppose the market value I see here is nowhere near the value you are seeing and more importantly we don't care about the market value in the future or the past only the present and the prices don't have much further to drop or they'll be giving them away.
> 
> The moral of the story?
> There is none, it's just a waffle.


With several million in the bank I would consider spending a million on a Spanish property, if the location was right, I liked the look of the place and I felt it was worth it to me.

If the properties that are being advertised at 300K are not up to the standard of the buyer why is he a 'muppet' for spending more?

Each of us have varied levels of acceptance for things...some have both higher expectations and deeper pockets, just because you are not prepared to purchase property for more than 300K does not make those that can afford to 'muppets'....in my mind they are just wealthy!


----------



## Pazcat

No it does somewhat depend on the situation but you missed my point. I can find a hypothetical property of the same standard or better as your 300K property for half that price, probably just down the road. So if for whatever reasons you paid the 300K there is no point grizzling because you think the price is unfair, the market is loaded and unless you are tied to a specific area for work, etc then there is no reason you can't find a much more affordable property.

Just come and look and find out for yourself what is around, no point asking agents when your in the UK or getting prices from the telly, if that's what you're going by then expect to overpay.
So yes, in my opinion you would be a muppet to spend 300K on a house you can get for half that, the owners wont accept that offer then take your business elsewhere as there are loads to choose from.

Of course these numbers are invented and are subject to change depending on area but the principle behind it is the same.
In a way the OP is right but a few people holding on to unrealistic prices for their plane tickets home is not the actual market.

Our initial budget was two to three times the amount at first and now we are not prepared to pay those prices because you just don't need to, imo it would be stupid to throw money away like that.


----------



## StevejR1

I'm not sure if spending €300k makes you a muppet, but it is a very significant risk.

What I've been trying to say is the value for money isn't quite at the level where the value for money equates to taking that risk.

Like you've said, if you've got plenty of money then it's about having more money than sense really...but if like most buyers it's about not making an expensive mistake, then the valuations aren't making the risk worth taking yet.


----------



## Pazcat

I guess it's not the 300K that is the issue, but what I mean is for that money(in euros) and from what I've seen locallyish I would expect 20,000m2 land minimum and a house that is far to large for anyone who doesn't have 8 children. OK this may not be a sea front location but I see plenty of value, at least around here.


----------



## Megsmum

Steve.R said:


> I'm not sure if spending €300k makes you a muppet, but it is a very significant risk.
> 
> What I've been trying to say is the value for money isn't quite at the level where the value for money equates to taking that risk.
> 
> Like you've said, if you've got plenty of money then it's about having more money than sense really...but if like most buyers it's about not making an expensive mistake, then the valuations aren't making the risk worth taking yet.


Which is why the two minds will never meet, what is the risk you talk of, the risk that the house will be worth less than you paid for it? The risk is only there if you want to sell, and most people, I think, in Spain, apart from the british, buy and sell houses as investments, most are homes, which is why


The Spanish appear stubborn - they do not have to sell they can wait

The foreign owned property owners need to recoup on there investments.


it is only my opinion, but if you are moving to Spain with a view to going back then I understand your reluctance to buy, but if like us you are planning to move permanently, then what the house is worth 10 years from hence is not a factor.


----------



## oronero

So if somebody buys the latest Rolls Royce when they could have bought a Ford Ka, which does the same for a significant amount of money less are they a 'muppet' also? After all the cheaper Ford Ka does everything that is required of a car in the same manner that a Rolls Royce does.

I think it is both Steve.R and Pazcat that have not fully comprehended the concept of what they are ranting about.


----------



## StevejR1

cambio said:


> Which is why the two minds will never meet, what is the risk you talk of, the risk that the house will be worth less than you paid for it? The risk is only there if you want to sell, and most people, I think, in Spain, apart from the british, buy and sell houses as investments, most are homes, which is why
> 
> 
> The Spanish appear stubborn - they do not have to sell they can wait
> 
> The foreign owned property owners need to recoup on there investments.
> 
> 
> it is only my opinion, but if you are moving to Spain with a view to going back then I understand your reluctance to buy, but if like us you are planning to move permanently, then what the house is worth 10 years from hence is not a factor.


I am buying with the hope of retiring in 3 years, and hopefully staying for the rest of my days.

The property will be a home not an investment....

...however....to say, as I'm buying it as a home then its purchase price is irrelevant is a little short-sighted!

Yes I agree in principle it is...but the amount after my purchase will decide what funds are left for my retirement...so paying over the odds will dramatically effect my future standard of life, so it is still relevant.

Also, if I were to return for any reason, if I had bought blindly at €300k, then found when the time came it was worth no more than €150k...then I'd be in the same position as some of the unfortunate owners today.

That is a risk with any home/house etc....but with the market in Spain at the moment it is a very high risk. So is it not just common sense to pay a price that I feel is fitting to that risk??


----------



## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> They were realistic because similar properties, in a similar area, were selling for a similar price...that made the buyer prepared to pay the price. It was realistically priced to the market value at the time. If it hadn't been it wouldn't have sold.
> 
> In Spain are the prices based on what had sold locally recently??? I'm getting the impression it's not!....mostly it's based on the price per m2, or the price reduction of the value in 2008, or what the owner needs to cover his costs. Am I wrong to say that's not how a market value of anything is calculated??
> 
> Market value is based, as you say, on what someone is prepared to pay. As a buyer with cash in hand I'm feeling more and more, especially after this thread, that what I pay should be based on what somebody tells me, not on recent sales. If those properties have gone unsold for over two years then I'd be a fool to ignore the strong position that I'm in.



No, there were no other comparable properties on the market at that time. It was a rather nice Victorian terraced cottage which we renovated. The buyer was willing to pay what we asked.

What you pay for a property in Spain is what you and the owner agree. Simple as that.


----------



## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> I am buying with the hope of retiring in 3 years, and hopefully staying for the rest of my days.
> 
> The property will be a home not an investment....
> 
> ...however....to say, as I'm buying it as a home then its purchase price is irrelevant is a little short-sighted!
> 
> Yes I agree in principle it is...but the amount after my purchase will decide what funds are left for my retirement...so paying over the odds will dramatically effect my future standard of life, so it is still relevant.
> 
> Also, if I were to return for any reason, if I had bought blindly at €300k, then found when the time came it was worth no more than €150k...then I'd be in the same position as some of the unfortunate owners today.
> 
> That is a risk with any home/house etc....but with the market in Spain at the moment it is a very high risk. So is it not just common sense to pay a price that I feel is fitting to that risk??


I would advise tenting before you buy. You really need to spend at least six months in a place before committing to purchase.
The first place we lived in here suited neither of us. If we had bought it without getting to know the area we would be very miserable.


----------



## StevejR1

oronero said:


> So if somebody buys the latest Rolls Royce when they could have bought a Ford Ka, which does the same for a significant amount of money less are they a 'muppet' also? After all the cheaper Ford Ka does everything that is required of a car in the same manner that a Rolls Royce does.
> 
> I think it is both Steve.R and Pazcat that have not fully comprehended the concept of what they are ranting about.


I think it is you that is not comprehending the situation....

If you buy a Ka or a Rolls Royce, that is a personal, and financial, decision, based on your wants, needs, and financial situation.

I'm not after a Rolls Royce for Ka money.....so not moaning that I can't afford the Rolls Royce...

But, if in 2008 Rolls Royce cars were £150,000, a Ford Ka at £15,000 and were selling....

But if in, 2013 the Rolls Royce was reduced to £100,000, the Ka at £17,000....but the sales of the Rolls Royce were non existent, the Ka were very slow, what happens to increase sales??....

Do you..

A, Think the Rolls Royce is still good value cos it is £50,000 less than 5 years ago?
B, Reduce the price further to encourage sales?
C, Stick your head in the sand, and can't understand why such a lovely car isn't selling?

The Ka has the same problem, but on a reduced margin, but has a wider appeal because it is still more affordable to a wider group of purchasers, not the exclusive market of the RR!

I'm not trying to be arrogant, but I can not see how people keep defending a 'market value' placed on properties that haven't sold in two years and more!


----------



## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> No, there were no other comparable properties on the market at that time. It was a rather nice Victorian terraced cottage which we renovated. The buyer was willing to pay what we asked.
> 
> What you pay for a property in Spain is what you and the owner agree. Simple as that.


You are kidding yourself!....your house was based on sales of houses in that area. Are you saying that there were no houses for sold in that area, at that time?? Of course there was! That is what your estate agent based your asking price on.

By your reckoning, if I want to sell a BMW car, 2010, and I want £28k for it, based on that's what I want...all I've got to do is wait for someone stupid enough to agree to it! Hardly!

My BMW would be based on what it cost to buy new, and what 2010 BMW's were selling for at the time! Simple as that surely??


----------



## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> I would advise tenting before you buy. You really need to spend at least six months in a place before committing to purchase.
> The first place we lived in here suited neither of us. If we had bought it without getting to know the area we would be very miserable.


Thanks, that is good advice, and we do intend to rent for a minimum of 6 months, hopefully in an area near a house we would like to buy, and in a similar type of villa/house.

That is why we are in no hurry to buy, or to be drawn into an inflated valuation.


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## mrypg9

I live in an area where house prices have fallen by around 50%. In spite of - or perhaps because- we live there it is regarded as a 'desirable' area, albeit having experienced a Mafia shooting four years ago.
Some houses which five or more years ago were selling for over a €million are greatly reduced. There are however several houses for sale which are simply stunning. They are not being sold at knockdown prices. Many have been on the market for three years or more..But gradually they are selling at those prices. They seem to be owned by wealthy Spaniards from Madrid or Seville who are in no hurry to sell.


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## crookesey

My ideal property doesn't exist, it is a very simple oblong structure with garaging on the ground floor and living accommodation consisting of lounge/kitchen diner and two side by side en-suite double bedrooms and three large French windows overlooking a balcony and beach/sea within a few strides on the first floor. It would have an infinity pool to the front and everything would be eco friendly, including a huge fireplace that I would run on drift wood found on the beach in winter.

Now I'm no multi millionaire, but I could and would gladly access circa £500K for our dream property, we would have no need of the high life as everything would revolve around the property, we would walk our dogs on the beach, eat on the balcony and watch sea storms from the comfort of our wonderfully warm house in winter.

Now how's that for a muppet?


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## rewdan

when buying property, I have found the best way is too see as many as possible within budget and buy the best one, a policy I have used many times and it has always worked for me


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## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> You are kidding yourself!....your house was based on sales of houses in that area. Are you saying that there were no houses for sold in that area, at that time?? Of course there was! That is what your estate agent based your asking price on.
> 
> By your reckoning, if I want to sell a BMW car, 2010, and I want £28k for it, based on that's what I want...all I've got to do is wait for someone stupid enough to agree to it! Hardly!
> 
> My BMW would be based on what it cost to buy new, and what 2010 BMW's were selling for at the time! Simple as that surely??


I didn't use an agent and there were no other properties of that type on the market then. I set the price I wanted and got it. 
And I have also sold cars at prices I set...a classic VW Golf GTi cabrio springs to mind.

The price of a used car can vary by £thousands. Guideline prices are just that.Guidelines. Price depends on a multitude of factors..condition, mileage, extras, colour even. Again, it depends what the vehicle is worth to the buyer. I fell in love with a 1976 Triumph Spitfire convertible and paid over the odds for it because I might not have had another chance to buy.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Steve.R said:


> I am buying with the hope of retiring in 3 years, and hopefully staying for the rest of my days.
> 
> The property will be a home not an investment....
> 
> ...however....to say, as I'm buying it as a home then its purchase price is irrelevant is a little short-sighted!
> 
> Yes I agree in principle it is...but the amount after my purchase will decide what funds are left for my retirement...so paying over the odds will dramatically effect my future standard of life, so it is still relevant.
> 
> Also, if I were to return for any reason, if I had bought blindly at €300k, then found when the time came it was worth no more than €150k...then I'd be in the same position as some of the unfortunate owners today.
> 
> That is a risk with any home/house etc....but with the market in Spain at the moment it is a very high risk. So is it not just common sense to pay a price that I feel is fitting to that risk??




Simply don't buy.. problem solved


----------



## StevejR1

MaidenScotland said:


> Simply don't buy.. problem solved


We do want to buy, after renting, in order to set down roots.....we've considered never buying, and renting out our house, and renting in Spain....but in a way it would seem uncommitted..like we were waiting to go back to the UK. My partner doesn't really want to rent for 6 months to be honest..she wants it to be a place of our own.


----------



## maxd

Here is Steve R again moaning about the price of everything. I think you are tarring everything with the same brush. There are some good deals, there are some terrible deals and there are some in the middle.

The best way is to drive around and look at signs se vende from what I heard.


----------



## Megsmum

Steve.R said:


> I am buying with the hope of retiring in 3 years, and hopefully staying for the rest of my days.
> 
> The property will be a home not an investment....
> 
> ...however....to say, as I'm buying it as a home then its purchase price is irrelevant is a little short-sighted!
> 
> Yes I agree in principle it is...but the amount after my purchase will decide what funds are left for my retirement...so paying over the odds will dramatically effect my future standard of life, so it is still relevant.
> 
> Also, if I were to return for any reason, if I had bought blindly at €300k, then found when the time came it was worth no more than €150k...then I'd be in the same position as some of the unfortunate owners today.
> 
> That is a risk with any home/house etc....but with the market in Spain at the moment it is a very high risk. So is it not just common sense to pay a price that I feel is fitting to that risk??


Then buy something that leaves you with the money you need. I could be wrong but I think what you are actually saying is you want a house that is for sale at X amount, but you in reality have Y to spend, have you made any offers yet. It is no different to the UK. Make an offer either its accepted or not. I am really loosing touch with what you are trying to say, there are houses here in the UK that I think are overpriced. Simples do not buy.

I still do not understand where the risk is if you intend staying. You by for 100k you have 100k to live off. If you buy for 150K you have 50K to live off, the issue is not the over-inflated house price, but the fact, as I see it, that you think the house at 150K is worth 100 and you loose the difference. That's your choice

We are selling and buying out of the proceeds a house and that will also provide 
us with an income along with my occupational pension. we have a budget that we know will leave us with enough to live off, yes if we spend more we have less, 

I am sorry, I might be dim. but unless you are thinking of selling and downsizing later to release capital I still do not see the risk. i


----------



## mrypg9

Steve.R said:


> We do want to buy, after renting, in order to set down roots.....we've considered never buying, and renting out our house, and renting in Spain....but in a way it would seem uncommitted..like we were waiting to go back to the UK. My partner doesn't really want to rent for 6 months to be honest..she wants it to be a place of our own.


Why should it seem uncommitted? We rented in Prague and rent here. We have no intention of either moving back to the UK or buying. We've had enough of the responsibilities and sometimes hassles property brings.
We sold all property we owned in the UK and abroad and are now enjoying retirement happy in the knowledge that should the roof fall in, we won't have to repair it. My son and dil don't need an inheritance and they have property in Spain anyway and a share in a property in France.
We have moved our furniture etc. round Europe with us so we can settle in and feel at home in a house that isn't ours.
You say you don't want risk but buying without first renting to see if you like the area seems very risky to me!


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Why should it seem uncommitted? We rented in Prague and rent here. We have no intention of either moving back to the UK or buying. We've had enough of the responsibilities and sometimes hassles property brings.
> We sold all property we owned in the UK and abroad and are now enjoying retirement happy in the knowledge that should the roof fall in, we won't have to repair it. My son and dil don't need an inheritance and they have property in Spain anyway and a share in a property in France.
> We have moved our furniture etc. round Europe with us so we can settle in and feel at home in a house that isn't ours.


we've been renting here for 10 years now - I'd say we're pretty committed



or do I mean that I should be :becky:


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> we've been renting here for 10 years now - I'd say we're pretty committed
> 
> 
> 
> or do I mean that I should be :becky:


I was really unhappy in our first 'home' here, luckily so were Sandra and Azor. It felt like being on holiday, in a hotel, not 'real' living. Yet when we first viewed it it seemed OK.
Nothing wrong with the urb, it was us....if I were thinking of buying here, I'd stake out my chosen area very thoroughly if I saw a house I might consider buying, I'd pass it at various times in the day and night to check on noise etc.


Mind you, our friends next door have just got a new cockerel for their chicken run. Bloody thing crows loudly and often from 6. 30 a.m......


----------



## maxd

The best would be to rent first and buy later. You also get a feel for what you like, otherwise you might have buyers remorse.

In this market it is not like you are going to lose out dramatically on price increases and on balance it is probably far better value renting rather than buying now, especially if you have something else you could do with that cash.


----------



## StevejR1

cambio said:


> Then buy something that leaves you with the money you need. I could be wrong but I think what you are actually saying is you want a house that is for sale at X amount, but you in reality have Y to spend, have you made any offers yet. It is no different to the UK. Make an offer either its accepted or not. I am really loosing touch with what you are trying to say, there are houses here in the UK that I think are overpriced. Simples do not buy.
> 
> I still do not understand where the risk is if you intend staying. You by for 100k you have 100k to live off. If you buy for 150K you have 50K to live off, the issue is not the over-inflated house price, but the fact, as I see it, that you think the house at 150K is worth 100 and you loose the difference. That's your choice
> 
> We are selling and buying out of the proceeds a house and that will also provide
> us with an income along with my occupational pension. we have a budget that we know will leave us with enough to live off, yes if we spend more we have less,
> 
> I am sorry, I might be dim. but unless you are thinking of selling and downsizing later to release capital I still do not see the risk. i


The risk is the instability of the Spanish housing market that I'm buying into, and the instability of the Spanish economy....or am I being naive about that?

I'm not expecting an exclusive villa for town house money...what I'm talking about is property that is hugely overpriced, that even the agents are suggesting bids of €80-100k less!

My original post was about the ridiculous situation that existed pre-2008 before the bubble burst. I was genuinely shocked to see that people bought modest villas, at ridiculous prices....the sellers/builders must have been in utopia...but the buyers must have been a little naive to think that they were heading for trouble.


----------



## StevejR1

mrypg9 said:


> Why should it seem uncommitted? We rented in Prague and rent here. We have no intention of either moving back to the UK or buying. We've had enough of the responsibilities and sometimes hassles property brings.
> We sold all property we owned in the UK and abroad and are now enjoying retirement happy in the knowledge that should the roof fall in, we won't have to repair it. My son and dil don't need an inheritance and they have property in Spain anyway and a share in a property in France.
> We have moved our furniture etc. round Europe with us so we can settle in and feel at home in a house that isn't ours.
> You say you don't want risk but buying without first renting to see if you like the area seems very risky to me!


I've considered it, but we both, particularly my partner, would prefer to buy. I'm not scared of the commitment, and would very unlikely return to the UK.


----------



## maxd

Well Steve, a friend in Mijas now said someone just bought an apartment previously for 170k for 50K but the seller had Alzheimer's and needed cash quick.

Sad story for the seller, but good for the buyer.


----------



## StevejR1

maxd said:


> Here is Steve R again moaning about the price of everything. I think you are tarring everything with the same brush. There are some good deals, there are some terrible deals and there are some in the middle.
> 
> The best way is to drive around and look at signs se vende from what I heard.


We have just returned from a week doing just that..we will be back in September to do it again after the August holidays.


----------



## StevejR1

maxd said:


> Well Steve, a friend in Mijas now said someone just bought an apartment previously for 170k for 50K but the seller had Alzheimer's and needed cash quick.
> 
> Sad story for the seller, but good for the buyer.


I'm not saying there aren't bargains out there, but there are a lot of disjointed prices too. There are plenty of sad cases like you mention too unfortunately.


----------



## crookesey

IMHO the only way is to firstly find where, when you've done that get walking around to see what is on the market. The dreaded agents can make a dog turd look like a bar of gold, the person that you speak to will most probably have no knowledge of anything as most of their 'stock' will be details nicked from other agents, a lot will have been sold months if not years ago. 

When a genuine gem appears on the market there is always a cash buyer flying in from god knows where, you will be asked for the dreaded 'deposit' that is usually circa €4,000 to 'secure' the property, this is definitely none refundable, I reckon that they make more out of keeping deposits than they do from selling property. 

Sales details on notice boards in local bars and cafes are worth a look, the owner will know the seller, and probably has knowledge of the property. Never pay anything to anyone other than your lawyer, sellers can also be as bent as a bottle of crisps.

But having said that, good hunting.


----------



## Megsmum

going slightly off topic.

Where do you stand with the "deposit" to secure property, a few of the agents we have dealt with have mentioned this. Do i have to pay, can I not just proceed without "securing" the property, if it falls through then it falls through, do not mine paying to solictor but not an agent:cheer2:


----------



## baldilocks

You are obviously looking in the areas where there are sharks. Normally you put out a small deposit (e.g. 1k) as a token of good intent (in US, this would be known as "earnest money"), this will normally hold the property for a short time (typically a month or so as per agreement) while you get your act together (financing, solicitor, etc) and will be deducted from the price if you proceed. If you don't proceed, expect to lose it.


----------



## Pazcat

oronero said:


> I think it is both Steve.R and Pazcat that have not fully comprehended the concept of what they are ranting about.


It's definitely clear you haven't managed to comprehend the conversation. Not at any point was I ranting, in fact all I was doing was defending the value of the market.
Now like I said if your prepared to throw money away at something you can find for half price elsewhere then good for you. Not my problem if your too lazy or picky not to find any value in the market.
No wonder the market is in the state it is in, it's the same problem anywhere you go people with more money than sense.

Try and buy the same sort of property in the UK or Australia and see how much that would set you back, in fact those housing markets have a similar looking housing bubble to another country I know once had maybe not quite as severe but certainly unsustainable.


----------



## Filsh

Steve.R said:


> I agree that we will be buying a home, not an investment....but if I see a house £100k dearer than a similar property down the road...then wouldn't that be foolish to buy it??....I think so.
> 
> That's what you're up against sometimes in the Spanish market at the moment


I don't understand why you wouldn't just buy the house that is valued at 100k less which is similar and just down the road. It is a free market and surely the point of a free market is that buyers and sellers can effectively buy or sell at their preferred price?


----------



## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> My daughter paid the asking price for her villa as she thought it was worth it, it was where she wanted, what she wanted in terms of land and has never regretted it as she said I bought it to be my home not an investment.
> I paid the asking price for my house from a builder.. the only stipulation being that he fixed something for me. again I had the same thoughts as my daughter
> 
> If it is what you want, where you want and you can afford it, is it not worth the money?


Thats the only way to do it. If you see a cheaper house down the road, then buy that one if its of the same standard and is suitable. The trouble with taking time and worrying about the prices, stubbornness etc is that by the time you've looked at more and more, analysed and questioned everything - you're not living in your place in Spain and have wasted time! The main issue IMO, is that you know what you're doing and that you are knowledgeable enough not to get "ripped off" - and not just by property prices, but by all of the ancillary bits and pieces 

Life is too short.

Jo xxx


----------



## crookesey

baldilocks said:


> You are obviously looking in the areas where there are sharks. Normally you put out a small deposit (e.g. 1k) as a token of good intent (in US, this would be known as "earnest money"), this will normally hold the property for a short time (typically a month or so as per agreement) while you get your act together (financing, solicitor, etc) and will be deducted from the price if you proceed. If you don't proceed, expect to lose it.


Sharks tend to get around these days, they've actually been spotted in the Devon and Cornish coastal waters. My idea of 'a token of good intent' is to instruct a surveyor and a lawyer, whilst proving that funds are available or a mortgage has been agreed.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> The best would be to rent first and buy later. You also get a feel for what you like, otherwise you might have buyers remorse.
> 
> In this market it is not like you are going to lose out dramatically on price increases and on balance it is probably far better value renting rather than buying now, especially if you have something else you could do with that cash.


Quite. If you have a good advisor/broker you can get a good return on your investment, all things considered, as was discussed recently on another thread. 

If we had bought in Prague as friends constantly urged us to do, we would be stuck there now instead of lounging by our pool in temperatures of 40C plus!!


And if we had bought the first place we lived in,albeit briefly, in Spain, I would have been desperate to get back to Prague, although I would have gone alone as wild horses wouldn't drag OH back there


----------



## Madliz

Many times I read disdainful comments about vendors who have had their properties on the market for "2-5 years!!".

What one should realise, going by what I see in my area, is that generally the asking prices have dropped in line with the slump. I see local houses still for sale after several years but at prices 30%+ lower than when they first appeared. I would call that being realistic, especially since they know that buyers may well offer lower prices still.

If people are asking the same price as years ago, then, indeed, they are deluded. But often when you see the price today, you are unaware of the history. 

My house is currently on the market for 32% below the 2007 valuation, which I consider "realistic" and €40k under a valuation done this year, which I also consider fair. In my area, any potential buyers generally have houses they cannot sell so they cannot buy, nor can they obtain mortgages if needed. There is stagnation, yet even if we all dropped our prices considerably again, I cannot see it helping to get things moving as the banks are not lending so those lower down the ladder cannot reach the bottom rung.


----------



## jojo

In the end, its all about supply and demand. "Way back when", folk were flocking to Spain because it was new, growing, cheap and idyllic. Then the crisis hit the world. These days, there are too many houses, theres no work, the rules are tougher and so there are not enough people wanting/able to live there! Its sad, but its how it is!


Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> Thats the only way to do it. If you see a cheaper house down the road, then buy that one if its of the same standard and is suitable. The trouble with taking time and worrying about the prices, stubbornness etc is that by the time you've looked at more and more, analysed and questioned everything - you're not living in your place in Spain and have wasted time! The main issue IMO, is that you know what you're doing and that you are knowledgeable enough not to get "ripped off" - and not just by property prices, but by all of the ancillary bits and pieces
> 
> Life is too short.
> 
> Jo xxx




My house is ideal for me, it is right in the centre of the old town and minutes walk to everything it had been on the market for three years when I bought it and weeks after I moved in the man across the street told me he wanted to buy it but I beat him to it.. There may have been cheaper houses, I may have tried to get it down further but at the end of the day I thought it was worth my money.. 
p.s the only drawback, Novelda has a Fiesta that lasts almost full week, and it all takes place beside me, brass bands going past your door at 3 in the morning is a good alarm clock but hey it is only once a year


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Quite. If you have a good advisor/broker you can get a good return on your investment, all things considered, as was discussed recently on another thread.
> 
> If we had bought in Prague as friends constantly urged us to do, we would be stuck there now instead of lounging by our pool in temperatures of 40C plus!!
> 
> 
> And if we had bought the first place we lived in,albeit briefly, in Spain, I would have been desperate to get back to Prague, although I would have gone alone as wild horses wouldn't drag OH back there



Hey been up to 40C here in the last few weeks  I love it in Summer here, winter sucks, off to the Canary Islands this year.


----------



## crookesey

Have a look at this:- www.ferrando-moraira.com 
Ref: CH2243 - €259,500

I know this area very well, there are lots of tired 40 year old villas, it was very nice in the 80's.

This is my way of looking at a property from afar.

1) Why spoil the pool area by throwing chippings down where folk will be in their bare feet?

2) I can't see anY central heating radiators, or aircon units.

3) What is the wanna be amphitheatre doing, when it could be a very nice room?

4) Why no frontal photos, does it look that bad?

5) That stupid door overlooking the pool will be slamming shut every time there is a breeze, that whole window should comprise of French sliders.

I wouldn't travel very far to view this, they have spoiled the ship for the want of a ha'porth of tar IMHO.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Hey been up to 40C here in the last few weeks  I love it in Summer here, winter sucks, off to the Canary Islands this year.


I thought you were moving to Miami in the winter? Yes, winters are not pleasant in Prague bit then we had only one hot summer, hot enough to use the pool, in our three years there.

So many tourists too,all those people following women holding umbrellas..

Not much happening here, though, which isn't good for the economy. We live in a quiet area and in summer we used to get loads of Madrileños visting their summer homes but now very few come compared with three years ago.

Prague is very beautiful in autumn, my favourite season there.


----------



## Madliz

crookesey said:


> Have a look at this:- www.ferrando-moraira.com
> Ref: CH2243 - €259,500
> 
> I know this area very well, there are lots of tired 40 year old villas, it was very nice in the 80's.
> 
> This is my way of looking at a property from afar.
> 
> 1) Why spoil the pool area by throwing chippings down where folk will be in their bare feet?
> 
> 2) I can't see anY central heating radiators, or aircon units.
> 
> 3) What is the wanna be amphitheatre doing, when it could be a very nice room?
> 
> 4) Why no frontal photos, does it look that bad?
> 
> 5) That stupid door overlooking the pool will be slamming shut every time there is a breeze, that whole window should comprise of French sliders.
> 
> I wouldn't travel very far to view this, they have spoiled the ship for the want of a ha'porth of tar IMHO.



Jeez...260k for a measly 73m2? A classic example of wishful thinking. For less than twice that you could have my house with 300m2. No sea nearby but a pool and 1500m2 garden! For anyone wanting a peek, it's on eBay for a few more days.


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> I thought you were moving to Miami in the winter? .


The flight and the time zone for work do my head in for Miami. I have never been to the Canary Islands, so will go for a look in September on a fact finding mission but it is the only place close enough in winter that has decent weather. North Africa, Dubai not really my cup of tea for a 2 or 3 month stay.


----------



## crookesey

Madliz said:


> Jeez...260k for a measly 73m2? A classic example of wishful thinking. For less than twice that you could have my house with 300m2. No sea nearby but a pool and 1500m2 garden! For anyone wanting a peek, it's on eBay for a few more days.


To be fair the Moraira/Benissa/Cap Blanc areas are very nice, had it got the minus points sorted it would be worth the money, it's just too far from the coast for my liking.


----------



## extranjero

Madliz said:


> Jeez...260k for a measly 73m2? A classic example of wishful thinking. For less than twice that you could have my house with 300m2. No sea nearby but a pool and 1500m2 garden! For anyone wanting a peek, it's on eBay for a few more days.


You can have mine for 199,995e; detached,600sq mtre plot 120 build, 3 bed 3 bath, 9x5 mtre pool!


----------



## jojo

Madliz said:


> Jeez...260k for a measly 73m2? A classic example of wishful thinking. For less than twice that you could have my house with 300m2. No sea nearby but a pool and 1500m2 garden! For anyone wanting a peek, it's on eBay for a few more days.



tut tut - advertising???????? 

Look at it this way - In my road, there are two houses next to each other, and have been on the market for the same amount of time. house no.1 needs masses of work and is on a small plot of land, but is full of character. House no.2 is twice, if not triple the size, the land is twice the size, its all immaculate and stunning - but its not period or particularly attractive - house no.1 has sold for £750,000. House no.2 is on for £300,000 and no buyers

The point is that its about what someone will pay. There is no worth otherwise. The only time you can compare properties is if they're the same

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

There are factors you must take into account when buying a house in Spain that don't usually affect price. Flood, mudslide and fire are important possible considerations.
That little stream or arroyo near your house can become a raging torrent in winter, cutting you off from civilisation and ciggies, as JoJo knows only too well....?.
Then there's the question of legality.
Houses within 100m of each other may be affected in different ways by these factors.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> There are factors you must take into account when buying a house in Spain that don't usually affect price. Flood, mudslide and fire are important possible considerations.
> That little stream or arroyo near your house can become a raging torrent in winter, cutting you off from civilisation and ciggies, as JoJo knows only too well....?.
> Then there's the question of legality.
> Houses within 100m of each other may be affected in different ways by these factors.


Oh yes!!! My beautiful finca in the campo, that dry river bed that went across our drive - its never been more than a trickle "they" said!!!!!!!!! Right - we were stuck in that house for weeks - no gas, no food and most importantly no ciggies!! Luckily we were only renting!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

mrypg9 said:


> I thought you were moving to Miami in the winter? Yes, winters are not pleasant in Prague bit then we had only one hot summer, hot enough to use the pool, in our three years there.
> 
> So many tourists too,all those people following women holding umbrellas..
> 
> Not much happening here, though, which isn't good for the economy. We live in a quiet area and in summer we used to get loads of Madrileños visting their summer homes but now very few come compared with three years ago.
> 
> Prague is very beautiful in autumn, my favourite season there.





maxd said:


> Hey been up to 40C here in the last few weeks  I love it in Summer here, winter sucks, off to the Canary Islands this year.


Weather report says 26c and cloudy now in Prague, 22C and rain tomorrow. We could do with some rain here. No rain since early April,


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Steve.R said:


> I've started a couple of threads on what I believe are the unrealistic prices still being asked for in Spain. I'm still planning to, hopefully, move to Andalucia in the near future, but I'm just getting things sorted....
> 
> I've made comments before, that for what they are asking in Spain for some properties, that you can get the same, or even better, in the UK....but without the huge risk involved with buying in Spain, and without the uncertainty of the future economy. And to me that simply doesn't make sense..
> 
> As our research continues, my partner likes to watch 'A Place In The Sun' to get an idea of areas, prices, homes etc, and get a feel for what is available in Spain......it was whilst watching one last night that it hit home how today's market got in the state it is!
> 
> I'm coming into the market, and into the prospect of moving to Spain, after a huge crash, or rather the crisis as it's called. And the market is a little stagnant/jittery/un confident to say the least!!
> 
> But watching last night, a modest villa, very remote, nice, but not a luxury villa by any means, was up for sale for £250k. It was stated that in 2007 it was worth over £600k.......
> 
> ......£600k!!!!!.....who in their right mind would have paid £600k for that villa must have needed their head read!! Even in 2007 in the UK, £600k would have bought you a very very nice luxury home around here in Norwich, and in most other places I'm pretty sure. Even in London that was a very healthy budget to have had!
> 
> Yet in Spain, they were building modest homes, wacking them up for MASSIVELY inflated prices...and amazingly, selling them!....the builders, owners, agents, must have thought all their Christmas' had come at once!!!
> 
> I'm amazed that people thought what they were getting was really worth £600k???
> 
> So now we move to 2013....and I feel that the market is still clinging onto the insanity of the boom time! Almost like they can't believe that the bubble has burst...or if it has, then surely they can still try the same principle, but with smaller figures???
> 
> I think it's time to realise that the bubble has burst...and it has burst worldwide!!....people are short of cash, and more wise with what they've got. People don't get on a plane with a bag of money and common sense, then as soon as they see the sun leave their brains at the airport anymore!
> 
> *if they want to sell the properties, then they're going to have to offer good value.....what is being offered today in some areas, and in many circumstances, is far from good value!*
> 
> I know I may be talking to the informed...but I was really shocked last night at the sheer lunacy of what people were spending, and I could see how the market of today (... and one I'm trying to enter) is in the mess it is in.
> 
> I feel for the owners, I really do. But one of the properties last night had been on for 5 years!!!.....5 years!!!! That's got to tell you that the price is hugely wrong, or the market isn't attracting buyers........maybe the prices being hugely uninviting might be the cause?...maybe if the value out weighed the risk more buyers (like me!!) would be more willing to buy??? ......It's not rocket science is it?
> 
> I also feel..and I might be being unfair here, but I'm being totally honest....owners need as much as they can on a sale, to be able to buy a reasonable property in the UK...which is very understandable. But really you can't gauge the value of your property in Spain with the value of a similar property in the UK!! And I'm sure that's what's happening.
> 
> For instance...we really like a villa in Andalucia...it's nice, lovely in fact...but if I paid him the asking price, he could then come to the UK and buy my house for LESS and have the same sort of house, a nice house, lovely in fact, in a sort after area, in a lovely part of the world......who would be the winner in that deal, and who would be the mug???
> 
> *I think it's time the Spanish market woke up to the fact that there aren't as many, if any, mugs walking around with bulging wallets!*


I haven't read all of this thread, nor the other similar ones, but from what I _have_ read, I think you need to refrain from comparing the UK and Spain,and also what you think is sensible and what is actually happening, and what you see as unrealistic and what the Spanish want to do.
If a Spanish person wants to ask a high price for their property and have it on the market for years then they, quite obviously, will. It doesn't matter whether you think it's ridiculous or not!
Somebody else has probably said this, but a LOT of people bought properties as an investment when times were good. That means that all their money for the future may be tied up in these constructions. In their eyes they will be losing money if they sell cheap and in many cases they don't need the money immediately, so they'll hang on as long as possible. That's up to them - not to you the potential buyer. It's not necessarily that they are waiting for * "mugs walking around with bulging wallets"*, although some of course are.
Look around, (in real life, not A Place in the Sun etc) make an offer, and see what happens.
Take your time 'cos you're probably going to have to anyway


----------



## crookesey

I posted details of a property that had it been finished off correctly and was closer to the coast would have been fine for me. All on one floor, hardly any garden, nice little pool, absolutely perfect for someone with a rheumatoid factor of 75. Would I have been a muppet to have bought something that I could handle?


----------



## extranjero

An ideal time to give up smoking!


----------



## jojo

Interestingly, we were talking to a friend of ours who lives in Spain and he says that in his area (fairly close to Marbella), there is a major influx of very wealthy Russians, who are buying properties at market prices and spending vast amounts of money. This is apparently re-generating the whole area, albeit "dodgy" money??!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Interestingly, we were talking to a friend of ours who lives in Spain and he says that in his area (fairly close to Marbella), there is a major influx of very wealthy Russians, who are buying properties at market prices and spending vast amounts of money. This is apparently re-generating the whole area, albeit "dodgy" money??!
> 
> Jo xxx


Don't know about regenerating but yes, lots more Russians about lately. It seems a lot of money from all nationalities spent in the boom years could have been dodgy..I read somewhere that a third at least of all construction on the CdS was financed via 'dirty' money.

You can tell the Russians easily: bad haircuts, market-stall quality clothes and huge expensive cars, Bentleys being the car of choice...
And they shop in Carrefour...
If I had that kind of money I'd have a plane sent out each morning from the Harrods Food Hall stocked with delicacies..I certainly wouldn't be standing behind the likes of plebs like me in the queue at Carrefour checkout..
No class, some people.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> If I had that kind of money I'd have a plane sent out each morning from the Harrods Food Hall stocked with delicacies..I certainly wouldn't be standing behind the likes of plebs like me in the queue at Carrefour checkout..
> No class, some people.


Nah! have been round the foodhall in Harrods, would rather buy in Carrefour any day. For a start the food is much fresher - even had a good laugh as the assistant on the fish counter had to go chasing after a crab that had managed to drop off thedge of the display set off at a good pace in an attempt to avoid a rather hot ending.

I'd stand behind you in the queue at the caja in Carrefour if you were la última!


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Nah! have been round the foodhall in Harrods, would rather buy in Carrefour any day. For a start the food is much fresher - even had a good laugh as the assistant on the fish counter had to go chasing after a crab that had managed to drop off thedge of the display set off at a good pace in an attempt to avoid a rather hot ending.
> 
> I'd stand behind you in the queue at the caja in Carrefour if you were la última!


Baldy, you old smoothie

I've only been to Harrods twice in my life..But I remember a story, probably apocryphal, about a posh, titled lady going to the Food Hall and imperiously demanding a quarter pound of margarine, to which the young assistant replied:'Oh Madam, has it come to this...'
He was sacked.


----------



## Sirtravelot

mrypg9 said:


> Don't know about regenerating but yes, lots more Russians about lately. It seems a lot of money from all nationalities spent in the boom years could have been dodgy..I read somewhere that a third at least of all construction on the CdS was financed via 'dirty' money.
> 
> You can tell the Russians easily: bad haircuts, market-stall quality clothes and huge expensive cars, Bentleys being the car of choice...
> And they shop in Carrefour...
> If I had that kind of money I'd have a plane sent out each morning from the Harrods Food Hall stocked with delicacies..I certainly wouldn't be standing behind the likes of plebs like me in the queue at Carrefour checkout..
> No class, some people.



Those Germans should never have brought that wall down. 

Tsk, tsk.


----------



## Lolito

Uhm... there is no chance in hell that I would find what I have here and for the same price in the UK. Never! Spain is much cheaper and you get more for the price you pay. In the time I have been in Spain, prices have dropped to more than half, I don't see ridiculous prices anymore. 

When you see a ridiculous price, it is mainly due to someone very stubborn who does not want to lose his money, mostly 'guiri'. Those properties belong to people that don't have a clue about what is going on in Spain and hence having their houses on the market for 5 years. 

My house was worth over 300k euros only 4 years ago, now it won't sell for more than 150k euros. 

Some people need to wake up a bit. However, if you want to pay half a million for something, then go ahead, it is worth the money you are prepared to pay for it. Not more, not less.


----------



## extranjero

Lolito said:


> Uhm... there is no chance in hell that I would find what I have here and for the same price in the UK. Never! Spain is much cheaper and you get more for the price you pay. In the time I have been in Spain, prices have dropped to more than half, I don't see ridiculous prices anymore.
> 
> When you see a ridiculous price, it is mainly due to someone very stubborn who does not want to lose his money, mostly 'guiri'. Those properties belong to people that don't have a clue about what is going on in Spain and hence having their houses on the market for 5 years.
> 
> My house was worth over 300k euros only 4 years ago, now it won't sell for more than 150k euros.
> 
> Some people need to wake up a bit. However, if you want to pay half a million for something, then go ahead, it is worth the money you are prepared to pay for it. Not more, not less.


I don't think you can blame anyone for not wanting to give their property away.
It is galling to let a fully furnished house, with lovely garden complete with garden furniture go for peanuts. I think you will find that most people DO have a clue what's going on in Spain and "stubborn" is not the correct description.
If people refused insulting offers, it would be a step forward!


----------



## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> If people refused insulting offers, it would be a step forward!


Those who can, will. Those who can't, won't.
There are overstretched immigrant Brits who would be only too pleased to get any offer on their piso or whatever. 'Insulting' is an emotion only the individual him/herself can experience.
One person's 'insult' is another person's ticket back to the U.K.
For, as you keep reminding us, there are many financially embarassed people out there.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Those who can, will. Those who can't, won't.
> There are overstretched immigrant Brits who would be only too pleased to get any offer on their piso or whatever. 'Insulting' is an emotion only the individual him/herself can experience.
> One person's 'insult' is another person's ticket back to the U.K.
> For, as you keep reminding us, there are many financially embarassed people out there.


There are also those with a mortgage they are still struggling to pay and which they will have to pay off with the proceeds from the sale and that mean there is a limit to how much they can reduce the price.


----------



## Megsmum

My husband has just finished perusing the interweb at houses in Almeria, allbox, everything is very cheap there - rural - not town or village, yes some need work etc, but that area seems very cheap compared with elsewhere ?


----------



## jojo

cambio said:


> My husband has just finished perusing the interweb at houses in Almeria, allbox, everything is very cheap there - rural - not town or village, yes some need work etc, but that area seems very cheap compared with elsewhere ?


I think there are a fair few "illegal" builds in Allbox - even if the properties you're looking at arent, its possible the reputation has caused lower prices????

Jo xxxx


----------



## baldilocks

cambio said:


> My husband has just finished perusing the interweb at houses in Almeria, allbox, everything is very cheap there - rural - not town or village, yes some need work etc, but that area seems very cheap compared with elsewhere ?


Wasn't Allbox where the local mayor and his crowd were up in court for giving out illegal licences and a whole bunch of houses were supposed to be demolished?


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> Wasn't Allbox where the local mayor and his crowd were up in court for giving out illegal licences and a whole bunch of houses were supposed to be demolished?



......It was something like that I seem to recall

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

cambio said:


> My husband has just finished perusing the interweb at houses in Almeria, allbox, everything is very cheap there - rural - not town or village, yes some need work etc, but that area seems very cheap compared with elsewhere ?


There was definitely a lot of trouble in Albox over illegal housing. I'm not sure what's happening at the moment, but a quick Google of* illegal houses Albox* or *illegal homes Albox *brings up documents a recent as Jan 2013.
That doesn't mean to say that all housing in Albox is illegal though


----------



## tarot650

Pesky Wesky said:


> There was definitely a lot of trouble in Albox over illegal housing. I'm not sure what's happening at the moment, but a quick Google of* illegal houses Albox* or *illegal homes Albox *brings up documents a recent as Jan 2013.
> That doesn't mean to say that all housing in Albox is illegal though


You are qiute correct Pesky Wesky.There are some lovely properties which are perfectly legal but sadly it's the illegal builds which people remember.We looked at Albox more years back than I care to remember.We looked with an estate agent called Gordon Condrey and you would not believe the amount of illegal builds that we were shown and when we asked about an escrituta we were told to live in it for 4years and then register it.The picture is on one such illegal build that we were shown at the time and you can believe it or believe it not it was for sale for 10million pesetas and that was to move staight in including the agents fees.It was on a 2thousand square metre plot and the build size was 194sqm.The downer for this property was that 1.it was illegal and 2. it was a 2k drive down a dirt track to get to it.Sadly over the years people have fallen for properties like this.At the time there were no forums or internet for people to do their research..Regards.SB

Sorry about the two photo's together.at the time I didn' t have one of those all singing all dancing cameras


----------



## crookesey

I don't see the facination in buying property in deepest sheep fettling country, just because it's cheap, I wouldn't wish to live next door to a branch of Mercadona, neither would I wish to take a day return to one.


----------



## ptrclvd

cambio said:


> My husband has just finished perusing the interweb at houses in Almeria, allbox, everything is very cheap there - rural - not town or village, yes some need work etc, but that area seems very cheap compared with elsewhere ?


You have to be very careful in the Albox area. Many of the problems are being resolved but there were an enormous number of illegal builds which will not have proper services and which will be difficult if not impossible to sell over the next few years. However with care , a good lawyer and trustworthy agent you could find a bargain. Albox does have a very large ex pat community and if that is what you want it could be a good value option.

However Almeria can still provide fantastic value with less problems. The villages and countryside in the Sierra de las Filabres inland from Mojacar can provide stunning scenery ,very friendly locals and excellent good value properties only a short journey from the sea and the motorways. I love the area around in and around Lubrin. As always it will not be for everyone but it is in my humble opinion a very affordable very Spanish village which combines a rural idyll with all services.


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## tarot650

crookesey said:


> I don't see the facination in buying property in deepest sheep fettling country, just because it's cheap, I wouldn't wish to live next door to a branch of Mercadona, neither would I wish to take a day return to one.


Never saw any sheep when we were there.A lot of pigs though and it just goes to show what estate agents will do to sell properties although when we saw this property we had already bought on the C D S. but must admit it was quite enjoyable throwing a couple of holdalls in the back of the car and travelling all over southern Spain looking at other properties to see if our decision had been right.

Back then there were no forums or internet so you had to go on a gut feeling.The mind boggles at the amount of adverts that were in all the free papers and magazines but I would not want to live next to Mercadona myself although it would be handy just to nip in for a pint of milk and a loaf of bread.


----------



## baldilocks

soulboy said:


> I would not want to live next to Mercadona myself although it would be handy just to nip in for a pint of milk and a loaf of bread.


But we've got a Coviran corner shop 50m away and like most of the corner shops here it is run by Spaniards and there isn't an Asian breaking all the laws (that have to be complied with by others) under the sun, in sight.


----------



## tarot650

baldilocks said:


> But we've got a Coviran corner shop 50m away and like most of the corner shops here it is run by Spaniards and there isn't an Asian breaking all the laws (that have to be complied with by others) under the sun, in sight.


Our local shop is 100m away and the old spanish lady who runs it still talks in Pesetas so work that one out.Now that can be bloody mind boggling.


----------



## crookesey

]


baldilocks said:


> But we've got a Coviran corner shop 50m away and like most of the corner shops here it is run by Spaniards and there isn't an Asian breaking all the laws (that have to be complied with by others) under the sun, in sight.


No benefits = no Asians, simples. The poppy is mostly grown in Northern Pakistan/Southern Afghanistan, most UK small general stores are Pakistani owned, make your own minds up guys.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

crookesey said:


> ]
> 
> No benefits = no Asians, simples. The poppy is mostly grown in Northern Pakistan/Southern Afghanistan, most UK small general stores are Pakistani owned, make your own minds up guys.


So, could you also say 
No benefits (Spain) = no Magrebíes???
I see plenty of North African immigrants where I live.
Also Eastern European, South American...Me


----------



## crookesey

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, could you also say
> No benefits (Spain) = no Magrebíes???
> I see plenty of North African immigrants where I live.
> Also Eastern European, South American...Me


Pakistanis coming to the UK know every benefit available to them before they leave Pakistan. Eastern European covers a multitude of nationalities, Spain must allow fellow EU citizens inside it's borders, but if they allow none EU and African folk whilst declaring war on UK pensioners they deserve all that they get, as does the UK in respect of Pakistanis free loading. 

The PIGS economies are well on their way to perdition, the Euro has done far more harm than good, one currency and 17 different fiscal policies couldn't possibly work, and obviously doesn't.


----------



## baldilocks

crookesey said:


> Pakistanis coming to the UK know every benefit available to them before they leave Pakistan. Eastern European covers a multitude of nationalities, Spain must allow fellow EU citizens inside it's borders, but if they allow none EU and African folk whilst declaring war on UK pensioners they deserve all that they get, as does the UK in respect of Pakistanis free loading.
> 
> The PIGS economies are well on their way to perdition, the Euro has done far more harm than good, one currency and 17 different fiscal policies couldn't possibly work, and obviously doesn't.


Spain doesn't discriminate against UK pensioners - the UK government does that very well. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Euro. The crap currencies are the GBP and the USD with the controlling governments (US UK) just printing more paper to cover up their own ineffective fiscal policies.


----------



## crookesey

baldilocks said:


> Spain doesn't discriminate against UK pensioners - the UK government does that very well. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Euro. The crap currencies are the GBP and the USD with the controlling governments (US UK) just printing more paper to cover up their own ineffective fiscal policies.


At least the Brits and the Yanks are aware of the state of their currencies, if a Spaniard in Spain thinks that his/her € is as strong as that of a German's € in Germany, then they are in cloud cuckoo land. The £ and the $ will be around for many years to come, I'm not that certain that countries like Spain can afford to be members of a single currency. The UK's economy was savaged by the Labour government and bankers buying shanty towns in god knows where and allowing anyone into the country, Spain's economy has been destroyed by bent politicians and a naive attitude that all was well, well it wasn't and it is getting worse. 

I can understand anyone who was getting €1.45 for their £1.00 being a little peeved at the current exchange rate, however had Spain kept the Peseta they would have quite simply devalued it. The € is strong because of the likes of Germany, it might be the case that the £ will have to be devalued, however the US will never devalue the $.

Sorry, on the pensioners issue could you be specific?


----------



## JaneyO

crookesey said:


> Pakistanis coming to the UK know every benefit available to them before they leave Pakistan. Eastern European covers a multitude of nationalities, Spain must allow fellow EU citizens inside it's borders, but if they allow none EU and African folk whilst declaring war on UK pensioners they deserve all that they get, as does the UK in respect of Pakistanis free loading.
> 
> The PIGS economies are well on their way to perdition, the Euro has done far more harm than good, one currency and 17 different fiscal policies couldn't possibly work, and obviously doesn't.


The Uk actually produces an official booklet, maybe DWP? entitled 'Coming from Abroad? Your rights to benefits' aimed at non Eu immigrants. Can you imagine Spain doing the same??? Really I think the Uk deserves all it gets.


----------



## crookesey

JaneyO said:


> The Uk actually produces an official booklet, maybe DWP? entitled 'Coming from Abroad? Your rights to benefits' aimed at non Eu immigrants. Can you imagine Spain doing the same??? Really I think the Uk deserves all it gets.


I can't argue with that.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

crookesey said:


> Pakistanis coming to the UK know every benefit available to them before they leave Pakistan. Eastern European covers a multitude of nationalities, Spain must allow fellow EU citizens inside it's borders, but if they allow none EU and African folk whilst declaring war on UK pensioners they deserve all that they get, as does the UK in respect of Pakistanis free loading.
> 
> The PIGS economies are well on their way to perdition, the Euro has done far more harm than good, one currency and 17 different fiscal policies couldn't possibly work, and obviously doesn't.


Can't think of any sensible comment about this.


----------



## crookesey

Pesky Wesky said:


> Can't think of any sensible comment about this.


Try harder.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Can't think of any sensible comment about this.


Well I can, but the Mods would delete it. I dislike intensely this sub-racist tosh. Too much like the daily dose of anti-immigrant tripe from the Daily Heil.
It seems I and other retired people have been blissfully unaware that the Spanish Government has declared war on us. Oh well, you live and learn. Better get out my grandad's tin hat and my gran's blackout curtains... 
Now I'm against* uncontrolled* immigration and I am appalled at the thought of tens of thousands of Romanians and Bulgarians coming to the UK in 2014. Whose fault: Mrs. Thatcher for signing the Single European Act which allows for unrestricted movement of goods, labour and capital across the EU and Tony Blair for not imposing restrictions on entry from the former Soviet bloc states in 2004.
But the fact is that the UK needs immigrants. We are an ageing population and need a future cohort of workers to pay for the pensions of this generation, as well as to fill the very many jobs that it seems many British people are either too unskilled or too lazy to do. Then of course employers reap huge benefits from immigration, paying below the going rate to foreign workers.
Benefits are available to all across the EU., As an immigrant in Prague I was entitled to the benefits available to Czechs as I am entitled to benefits available to Spanish retirees now I am in Spain. Anyone who thinks that the same level of benefits will apply across the EU needs a crash course in basic geography and economics. Who would expect the same level of benefits in Greece as in Germany? 
The message is simple: if benefit levels are that important to you, stay home. Do not pass Go. Stay in Leamington Spa or wherever.

Is it not strange that immigrants in Spain should whinge about immigrants to the UK, most of whom are decent, hard-working people who make a vital contribution to many of our social services??


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> ]
> 
> No benefits = no Asians, simples. The poppy is mostly grown in Northern Pakistan/Southern Afghanistan, most UK small general stores are Pakistani owned, make your own minds up guys.


What a disgraceful slur on Pakistani immigrants. Are you really suggesting the local corner store is a drug dealing den?
Have you been sampling their wares to make such an allegation?


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> I don't see the facination in buying property in deepest sheep fettling country, just because it's cheap, I wouldn't wish to live next door to a branch of Mercadona, neither would I wish to take a day return to one.


Oh, I do agree. I'm fussy about whomsoever I have as a neighbour....


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> What a disgraceful slur on Pakistani immigrants. Are you really suggesting the local corner store is a drug dealing den?
> Have you been sampling their wares to make such an allegation?


Oh, but he's right about no benefits = no Asians though. If you think about it, Spain doesn't hand out benefits like the UK and you don't see many Asian shops here do you?


----------



## crookesey

mrypg9 said:


> What a disgraceful slur on Pakistani immigrants. Are you really suggesting the local corner store is a drug dealing den?
> Have you been sampling their wares to make such an allegation?


Northern Pakistan's largest industry is poppy growth and drug refining, but of course none has ever been transported to the UK and sold from shop premises. Several Asian shops have been raided in the UK and drugs found therein, a grocery shop owner in Rotherham went down down for a long stretch for importing and dealing from the family business.

And what a disgraceful slur on me, intimating that I could be a drug user.


----------



## jojo

Hey, we have drug dealers outside of our cooperative store. They're indiginous British, not Asian and the Coop itself (as do other shops) sell "kingskins" the extra long rizlas - which have only one purpose from what I can see - So I dont think you can blame a whole immigrant population. 

It seems to me that drugs are no longer a "slur", but a way of life and its hard to believe they're illegal - no one seems to care, even the police just accept it now

Jo xxx


----------



## Megsmum

:focus::focus::focus:


----------



## jojo

cambio said:


> :focus::focus::focus:


 

Sorry :tape:

Jo xxx:focus:


----------



## donk

I agree with you 100% Steve. We are looking to buy in Benalmadena and for the house/plot size we want owners are asking 400-600k euros. Considering that the house ive got in UK has an ample garden and 5 bedrooms and cost us £300k, Im loath to pay £100k+ to get a similar property in the Costa Del Sol. So we are renting for the first year at least, and hoping that, as the reviews say, prices will come down in Spain over the next five years.


----------



## mrypg9

donk said:


> I agree with you 100% Steve. We are looking to buy in Benalmadena and for the house/plot size we want owners are asking 400-600k euros. Considering that the house ive got in UK has an ample garden and 5 bedrooms and cost us £300k, Im loath to pay £100k+ to get a similar property in the Costa Del Sol. So we are renting for the first year at least, and hoping that, as the reviews say, prices will come down in Spain over the next five years.


Ah...but when global warming really takes effect and the Spanish economy improves, thus enabling millions of Spanish pensioners to seek out property in Newcastle, your 300000€ house will double in price....


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## crookesey

Its not going to be easy if you want to be close to the beach, almost impossible if you want to be beach side of the coast road. Have you had a look around Benalmadena Pueblo, probably the nicest of the areas a bit inland, but with some superb sea views?


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Ah...but when global warming really takes effect and the Spanish economy improves, thus enabling millions of Spanish pensioners to seek out property in Newcastle, your 300000€ house will double in price....


But with the low prices in Spain they won't be able to raise enough money from the sale of their Spanish property which is now in the middle of la Provincia de la Sájara Norte to even buy the garden shed in Newcastle!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

donk said:


> I agree with you 100% Steve. We are looking to buy in Benalmadena and for the house/plot size we want owners are asking 400-600k euros. Considering that the house ive got in UK has an ample garden and 5 bedrooms and cost us £300k, Im loath to pay £100k+ to get a similar property in the Costa Del Sol. So we are renting for the first year at least, and hoping that, as the reviews say, prices will come down in Spain over the next five years.


Here are a couple of interesting graphs about house prices.
I have no idea if they are accurate or not though!

http://www.mdbriefing.com/sf-spain-rpp-adjusted.png

http://www.perpe.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Spain-Ireland-House-Price-Jul-2013.gif


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## zenkarma

Steve.R said:


> If I had say €300k to buy a house with, where is the greatest risk be? In the UK, or Spain? The UK market, although still slow, is starting to pick up. In Spain the market is stagnant, and the economic future very uncertain.


Read the following. I'm not going to reference it, do your own research.

At least the prices in Spain have stabilised to an extent and are a known quantity. If anything they're likely to be over-valued by up to 20%. 

Do you still think UK House Prices are safe and secure from falling?




> Apparently there is life in the UK housing market. According to ONS, UK house prices increased by 3.1% in the 12 months to June 2013, up from a 2.9% increase in the 12 months to May 2013.
> 
> Predictably, vested interests like estate agents, surveyors and developers are crowing. The director of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, Peter Bolton King, claims the housing market is “on the road to recovery”. I wish I could be so positive. But this “recovery” is not quite what it seems.
> 
> Would someone please explain to me why it is such a great idea for the Government to encourage first-time buyers to take on bigger mortgages at higher loan-to-value at a time when interest rates are at unprecedentedly low levels? The current low mortgage rates are by no means fixed in stone: _Funding for Lending_ has reduced rates for borrowers, but there is no guarantee that they will remain low. Has no-one learned from the American housing crash of 2007, in which people with adjustable-rate mortgages suddenly found that the rate adjusted by far more than they could afford, and were forced into default?
> 
> Where are the wage increases that support this increase in debt? A chart from the ONS shows that the rate of growth of wages is well below CPI, currently 2.8%, so real wages are actually falling.
> 
> I can’t see how such expansion of lending, and the resulting rise in house prices, is remotely sustainable. The economy is not growing, real wages are falling and living costs are rising. I really don’t buy the argument that rising house prices will somehow bootstrap the entire economy into sustainable growth. I’m in agreement with Moneyweek’s editor-in-chief, Merryn Somerset Webb. Speaking to the BBC, she said:
> 
> _“I tend to think rising house prices are terrible news. It’s an entirely unproductive part of the economy.”_
> 
> To my mind, unless economic activity increases and real wages start to rise, the housing market is bound to crash in due course, and the banks with it. Such rises in house prices are simply not sustainable in a flat economy with falling real wages. Encouraging house price rises under such circumstances is unbelievably stupid economic policy. But then this isn’t about economics, really.
> 
> The supposed “housing recovery” is due to three things:
> 
> - purchases of prime real estate in London by foreigners who have no intention of living in the UK but are attracted by the weakness of sterling;
> 
> - expansion of the buy-to-let market by investors desperate to find some yield in a very low interest rate environment;
> 
> - Government schemes to encourage people to buy houses on the assumption that interest rates will remain low for a long time to come.
> 
> Really it is entirely illusory. It has been deliberately engineered by a Chancellor whose sole aim is to ensure outright victory for his party in the 2015 general election. By pushing up house prices, he ensures the support of his core vote: by encouraging people to buy and sell property, even at unsustainable prices, he hopes he can can claim to be the Chancellor who “got the economy moving”. No wonder the loud complaints from savers (many of whom are Conservative voters) about low interest rates appear to be falling on deaf ears. No wonder Carney (with the tacit approval of the Chancellor) issued “forward guidance” that interest rates will remain on the floor until 2016. Markets were beginning to price in rate rises, but no way can rates be allowed to rise until after the 2015 election. The Conservative party’s victory depends on it.
> 
> As my regular readers know, I am determinedly politically non-aligned, so what I am going to say now will probably shock a lot of people. Osborne’s behaviour both angers and frightens me. He is playing brinkmanship with the UK economy to achieve political ends. Nothing he does makes much sense from an economic point of view – which is why the flagship _Help to Buy_ scheme has been universally panned, even by his own department and by people from his own party.
> 
> But if you view his actions as entirely determined by his desire to secure a Conservative victory in 2015, it all makes perfect sense.
> 
> He is dangerous.


----------



## jimenato

The fact remains that the situation in the UK is that there is a housing shortage whereas in Spain there is a glut.

That situation is not going to change for a very long time.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> The fact remains that the situation in the UK is that there is a housing shortage whereas in Spain there is a glut.
> 
> That situation is not going to change for a very long time.


You are right....but the way the government is tackling it is foolish and dangerous.. Guaranteeing loans to people who can't afford a deposit with taxpayers' money risks a repeat of the sub-prime fiasco.
There is a shortage of *affordable* homes. Home ownership is out of the question for average earners in London and other big cities. It's also time that we Brits got over our obsession with home ownership. House price inflation encourages trade on trade, borrowing on bubbles. It also discourages other more productive forms of investment and labour mobility.
What is needed is homes for affordable rent. Instead of jealously carping about the Germans, as so many on the right love to do, we should be taking a leaf out of their book. House purchase there is not seen as the be_all and end-all.


----------



## zenkarma

jimenato said:


> The fact remains that the situation in the UK is that there is a housing shortage whereas in Spain there is a glut.


With the greatest respect and without wishing to appear rude, but did you actually read and understand the quote I posted in the above post? Because if you did, you would appreciate that house prices are as much about _affordability_ as they are about _demand_. The UK house market is in danger of two things - 1/ being priced beyond the means of an average wage earner and 2/ interest rate rises that will make mortgages unaffordable for existing house owners who have bought on low interest rates.

You can have as much demand as you like, if people can't afford them or can't get a mortgage or afford the payments prices won't rise, they will decline.

Amsterdam specifically and Holland generally has a huge housing demand, prices have been falling in Amsterdam by as much as 5-10% a year for the last few years for the simple reason people can't afford them. Their wages haven't kept up with either inflation or the house prices.

Demand doesn't always drive prices, affordability and availability of cheap credit does.

With such over-supply in Spain, why haven't prices dropped further? Because those with properties either aren't prepared/can't afford to sell them off cheaply or the institutions/banks that own many of them would rather hang on to them and write the losses off on their balance sheets than sell them cheap and further depress the market.


----------



## ptrclvd

jimenato said:


> The fact remains that the situation in the UK is that there is a housing shortage whereas in Spain there is a glut.
> 
> That situation is not going to change for a very long time.


Absolutely right however this does oversimplify a very complex situation. 

In Spain there is as we know a massive amount of empty property. Whilst this does effect all areas and regions an enormous amount of that oversupply is in coastal areas in in 1 and 2 bedroomed apartments. In other parts of Spain it is the dire state of the economy with very high unemployment which is causing stagnation. If and when things pick up family homes in those areas will be the first to take off as oversupply is not so much of an issue ( give or take the odd new ghost town!).
In the UK the situation is similar but to some extent reversed. The lack of supply of new homes is currently mainly around the south east where a disproportionate amount of people live. The shortage is not so pronounced elsewhere. Thus it is a deeper recession and slower growth in areas such as the north that is holding back property sales there rather than a shortage of stock.

Of course if you want to buy an airport then Spain is undoubtedly the place in the world to look.....now there are real bargains in that sector!!!!


----------



## crookesey

mrypg9 said:


> You are right....but the way the government is tackling it is foolish and dangerous.. Guaranteeing loans to people who can't afford a deposit with taxpayers' money risks a repeat of the sub-prime fiasco.
> There is a shortage of *affordable* homes. Home ownership is out of the question for average earners in London and other big cities. It's also time that we Brits got over our obsession with home ownership. House price inflation encourages trade on trade, borrowing on bubbles. It also discourages other more productive forms of investment and labour mobility.
> What is needed is homes for affordable rent. Instead of jealously carping about the Germans, as so many on the right love to do, we should be taking a leaf out of their book. House purchase there is not seen as the be_all and end-all.


Following circa a quarter of a century in financial services I can state without fear of regret that it's biggest problem if the Financial Services Authority. They chased insurers and advisers in respect of possible sales irregularities whilst the banks ran riot. 120% loan to value mortgages were supposed to be for the likes of newly qualified doctors, dentists etc; who would quintuple their starting salaries in just a few years, and not for folk who hadn't got a cat in hell's chance of being able to guarantee repayments. A business acquaintance's recently qualified dentist daughter on circa £70K p/a, had her recent mortgage application for £200K on £250K rejected on the basis that the property could be turned into a surgery, the lunatics are still in control of the asylum.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Following circa a quarter of a century in financial services I can state without fear of regret that it's biggest problem if the Financial Services Authority. They chased insurers and advisers in respect of possible sales irregularities whilst the banks ran riot. 120% loan to value mortgages were supposed to be for the likes of newly qualified doctors, dentists etc; who would quintuple their starting salaries in just a few years, and not for folk who hadn't got a cat in hell's chance of being able to guarantee repayments. A business acquaintance's recently qualified dentist daughter on circa £70K p/a, had her recent mortgage application for £200K on £250K rejected on the basis that the property could be turned into a surgery, the lunatics are still in control of the asylum.


'Financial Advisors' must take their share of the blame. A couple of decades back, these people were touring council estates touting ridiculous mortgages to tenants to enable them to take advantage of the Right to Buy.  Fast forward a few years and the Housing Association of which I was a Director was snapping up those repossessed houses at bargain basement prices while their erstwhile 'owners' went back on the waiting list...at the bottom.
Mind you, an inept or greedy financial advisor apparently missold me an investment instrument many years ago. I had forgotten all about it until I received a cheque for a very handsome four-figure sum as compensation. It was a lovely surprise..I was at Stansted Airport awaiting a flight to Barcelona for a weekend with fifteen friends when I opened the post and found the cheque. I treated them all to a lavish dinner that evening..
It certainly wasn't banks who were recklessly lending, only to the extent that they of course released funds to these advisory businesses. I dabbled in the property market for a while in the UK and Canada, funded purchases from my own resources so never got into the hands of these vultures.
My view is that if you can't afford a substantial deposit, you don't buy.


----------



## zenkarma

crookesey said:


> ...and not for folk who hadn't got a cat in hell's chance of being able to guarantee repayments.


So whose fault is it do you think? The greedy, unscrupulous banks who lend these preposterous mortgage amounts out or the stupid, gullible fools who think they can keep up with the payments?

Which reminds me. I've been clearing out a lot of paperwork recently in preparation for putting my house up for sale (yes, I believe quite strongly the market is going to crash, but that's not the sole reason for selling it) and I came across a mortgage statement for my first mortgage. 

Firstly, they would only lend me 3 times my salary - no exceptions. And that was with a 40% of the flat value deposit which is quadruple what most banks recently were asking for and double what the banks now ask for. Secondly, that was at a variable 12.45% interest rate! An interest rate that most people with current mortgages couldn't even comprehend paying on their current mortgages, let alone actually pay it.


----------



## jojo

zenkarma said:


> So whose fault is it do you think? The greedy, unscrupulous banks who lend these preposterous mortgage amounts out or the stupid, gullible fools who think they can keep up with the payments?


 I'd say it was the fault of both! Neither would or could do it without the other........... oh and dont forget to throw in a few unscrupulous and greedy builders lol!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Madliz

zenkarma said:


> So whose fault is it do you think? The greedy, unscrupulous banks who lend these preposterous mortgage amounts out or the stupid, gullible fools who think they can keep up with the payments?
> 
> Which reminds me. I've been clearing out a lot of paperwork recently in preparation for putting my house up for sale (yes, I believe quite strongly the market is going to crash, but that's not the sole reason for selling it) and I came across a mortgage statement for my first mortgage.
> 
> Firstly, they would only lend me 3 times my salary - no exceptions. And that was with a 40% of the flat value deposit which is quadruple what most banks recently were asking for and double what the banks now ask for. Secondly, that was at a variable 12.45% interest rate! An interest rate that most people with current mortgages couldn't even comprehend paying on their current mortgages, let alone actually pay it.


Zenkarma, is it the Surrey or Almeria house that you are preparing to sell?


----------



## crookesey

I discern quite a bit of possibly left wing, public sector holier than thouness creeping into some posts. Financial advisers are easy to locate and even easier to blame for everything, particularly ones own greed. I always found that when everything was going well clients congratulated themselves on their business acumen, however when things went wrong it was someone else's fault and they claimed foul play. 

I've been blamed for a savings plan losing money during a crash, when infact thousands of pounds had been withdrawn from it by the client many years ago. My company was even blamed for losses incurred on products that we hadn't sold, to people that we had never heard of. The FSA go orgasmic over every complaint, even to the extent of apologising to pathological liars/serial claimants when they are unable to apportion blame on an insurance company or financial adviser. I would like to see these parasites brought to book, and damages claimed from them for wasting peoples valuable time. 

I fail to understand how financial advisers can be blamed for investment managers placing property, that would not be out of place in the film Deliverance, in their property funds. As far as council house purchase is concerned buyers were able to pick up real bargains relating to property that they knew well, most buyers improved their properties to their liking and when retired do not have rent to pay, or have left wing bureaucrats to deal with. Housing associations acting like carpet baggers when folk find themselves in trouble doesn't surprise me at all. 

By the way, my job was to administer group pension schemes, death in service schemes and group private medical schemes. I also conducted personal business on behalf of group employees and their families, and the very occasional 'walk in case.' I thought it best to let you guys know what you are able to hate me for.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> I* discern quite a bit of possibly left wing, public sector holier than thouness creeping into some posts*. Financial advisers are easy to locate and even easier to blame for everything, particularly ones own greed. I always found that when everything was going well clients congratulated themselves on their business acumen, however when things went wrong it was someone else's fault and they claimed foul play.
> 
> I've been blamed for a savings plan losing money during a crash, when infact thousands of pounds had been withdrawn from it by the client many years ago. My company was even blamed for losses incurred on products that we hadn't sold, to people that we had never heard of. The FSA go orgasmic over every complaint, even to the extent of apologising to pathological liars/serial claimants when they are unable to apportion blame on an insurance company or financial adviser. I would like to see these parasites brought to book, and damages claimed from them for wasting peoples valuable time.
> 
> I fail to understand how financial advisers can be blamed for investment managers placing property, that would not be out of place in the film Deliverance, in their property funds. As far as council house purchase is concerned buyers were able to pick up real bargains relating to property that they knew well, most buyers improved their properties to their liking and when retired do not have rent to pay, or have *left wing bureaucrats to deal with*. *Housing associations acting like carpet baggers when folk find themselves in trouble doesn't surprise me at all. *
> 
> By the way, my job was to administer group pension schemes, death in service schemes and group private medical schemes. I also conducted personal business on behalf of group employees and their families, and the very occasional 'walk in case.' I *thought it best to let you guys know what you are able to hate me for.*


A You discern wrongly, in my case at least. At one point I was able to be both a member of the Institute of Directors and a member of TUC and DWP Working Parties. I see and have experienced both 'sides'.
B IT wasn't the Housing Associations that evicted these people who had been sold mortgages they couldn't afford. To call HAs 'carpet baggers' is plain daft. We bought those houses to rehouse people on the waiting list. In our case we gave very many families the opportunity to have a decent home at a fair rent. By purchasing these repossessed houses which the Building Societies had put on the market we prevented the real carpetbaggers, the 'Buy To Rent' private landlords from buying them and renting them out often with the taxpayer footing the bill.
C Oh yes, it's well known that all bureaucrats and jobsworths are 'left-wing'. Being a card-carrying SWP member is anessential qualification for such a job.
DI doubt if most people think about financial advisors enough to hate them. I certainly don't. My only dealings with these people were many years ago when I was missold an investment plan but as I said I got a windfall later.
If I needed fnancial advice I consulted our bank manager, solicitor or accountant. Then I made my own mind up which is what I think most people do, no?


----------



## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> With the greatest respect and without wishing to appear rude, but did you actually read and understand the quote I posted in the above post? Because if you did, you would appreciate that house prices are as much about _affordability_ as they are about _demand_. The UK house market is in danger of two things - 1/ being priced beyond the means of an average wage earner and 2/ interest rate rises that will make mortgages unaffordable for existing house owners who have bought on low interest rates.
> 
> You can have as much demand as you like, if people can't afford them or can't get a mortgage or afford the payments prices won't rise, they will decline.
> 
> Amsterdam specifically and Holland generally has a huge housing demand, prices have been falling in Amsterdam by as much as 5-10% a year for the last few years for the simple reason people can't afford them. Their wages haven't kept up with either inflation or the house prices.
> 
> Demand doesn't always drive prices, affordability and availability of cheap credit does.
> 
> With such over-supply in Spain, why haven't prices dropped further? Because those with properties either aren't prepared/can't afford to sell them off cheaply or the institutions/banks that own many of them would rather hang on to them and write the losses off on their balance sheets than sell them cheap and further depress the market.


An excellent post, which I have just reread. Says it all.


----------



## crookesey

Bank managers, solicitors and accountants are not qualified or allowed to give financial advice beyond their remit, unless they have taken and passed a series of very advanced examinations, which I know they are advised not to get involved with.

I trust that the almost definitely unregulated financial advise that you received was of use to you, why didn't you bring your butcher and fishmonger into the equation?


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## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Bank managers, solicitors and accountants are not qualified or allowed to give financial advice beyond their remit, unless they have taken and passed a series of very advanced examinations, which I know they are advised not to get involved with.
> 
> I trust that the almost definitely unregulated financial advise that you received was of use to you, why didn't you bring your butcher and fishmonger into the equation?


Your last sentence doesn't make sense. If you rewrite it so my limited understanding can get to grips with it, I'll reply, if a reply is needed.

You have of course underlined my point which is that very many financial advisors are not qualified at all. Of course there are reputable, highly professional firms out there but certainly in the past anyone with a double-breasted suit, briefcase and second-hand Jag could term themselves as such. That has hopefully changed. 
As JoJo wisely says, there are two sides to this, as with most issues. Over-zealous salesmen keen to pocket their commissions and gullible, ill-informed people all too ready to sign on the line and ignore the small print. I have dealt with casework involving such people and often had to repress the desire to give the person I was dealing with a vicious shaking and cry 'How could you be so f*****g stupid!!!'.

But the mark of a civilised compassionate society is that we make some allowance for gullibility, rightly so imo, and little if any for profiting from it.
B


----------



## crookesey

mrypg9 said:


> Your last sentence doesn't make sense. If you rewrite it so my limited understanding can get to grips with it, I'll reply, if a reply is needed.
> 
> You have of course underlined my point which is that very many financial advisors are not qualified at all. Of course there are reputable, highly professional firms out there but certainly in the past anyone with a double-breasted suit, briefcase and second-hand Jag could term themselves as such. That has hopefully changed.
> As JoJo wisely says, there are two sides to this, as with most issues. Over-zealous salesmen keen to pocket their commissions and gullible, ill-informed people all too ready to sign on the line and ignore the small print. I have dealt with casework involving such people and often had to repress the desire to give the person I was dealing with a vicious shaking and cry 'How could you be so f*****g stupid!!!'.
> 
> But the mark of a civilised compassionate society is that we make some allowance for gullibility, rightly so imo, and little if any for profiting from it.
> B


Commission has not been paid to financial advisers for quite a while.


----------



## zenkarma

Madliz said:


> Zenkarma, is it the Surrey or Almeria house that you are preparing to sell?


The Surrey one. Why?


----------



## Madliz

zenkarma said:


> The Surrey one. Why?


I wondered where your comment "yes, I believe quite strongly the market is going to crash" was referring to.


----------



## zenkarma

Madliz said:


> I wondered where your comment "yes, I believe quite strongly the market is going to crash" was referring to.


Ahh okay. Well the Spanish market to all intents and purposes has already crashed. Prices are anything from 30-50% down on what they were at their peak depending on who you believe.

The UK market on the other hand dipped slightly, then leveled off then started climbing again fueled by nothing more than another dose of cheap credit and lots of foreign money pouring into prime London locations.

The UK market in my opinion is getting ready for a largish reset of about 20-30% off where the current prices are probably after the next election when interest rates start to rise.

That's just my personal opinion of course and my decision to sell isn't just based on my belief the market is going to fall, it's based on a lot of other things as well. The foremost of which is that I've had enough of the UK.


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## mancunianlass

I think its best to rent before buying. I am originally from the UK and living in California. I have been thinking of moving to Spain and wonder if its easy to rent a small apartment, or even become a roommate.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> But the mark of a civilised compassionate society is that we make some allowance for gullibility, rightly so imo, and little if any for profiting from it.
> B


Yes, and as our society revolves around how much people can buy with their salary, the highest salaries commanding the greatest respect regardless of how that money is made, we can conclude that our society is neither civilised nor compassionate.


----------



## baldilocks

zenkarma said:


> The UK market on the other hand dipped slightly, then leveled off then started climbing again fueled by nothing more than another dose of cheap credit and lots of foreign money pouring into prime London locations.


In 2006-2008 the UK market dropped by 40-50% - our flat fell from £250k to £130k but still had enough equity after clearing the mortgage to give us our start in Spain.


----------



## zenkarma

baldilocks said:


> In 2006-2008 the UK market dropped by 40-50% - our flat fell from £250k to £130k...


I'm sorry but I don't agree.

All the charts I've seen show a 10-15% drop around mid 2008, a steadying and then an increase from the end of 2009. That is pretty consistent with what I stated.

It does of course rely quite heavily on where your property is located—London and the SE, where I'm located probably dropped less and increased more quickly than the rest of the country.

The attached graphs, although one shows London Residential it was still largely mirrored throughout the rest of country, although not to the same extent. The other simply shows average house price percentage drop and increase.

I'm sure you'll agree, neither show a 40-50% drop that you appear to claim.


----------



## baldilocks

zenkarma said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree.
> 
> All the charts I've seen show a 10-15% drop around mid 2008, a steadying and then an increase from the end of 2009. That is pretty consistent with what I stated.
> 
> It does of course rely quite heavily on where your property is located—London and the SE, where I'm located probably dropped less and increased more quickly than the rest of the country.
> 
> The attached graphs, although one shows London Residential it was still largely mirrored throughout the rest of country, although not to the same extent. The other simply shows average house price percentage drop and increase.
> 
> I'm sure you'll agree, neither show a 40-50% drop that you appear to claim.


Those graphs reflect London and are not representative of the real world outside just as if you took the price variations on the CdS and compared them with inland Spain. As for an increase from the end of 2009, prices in the rest of UK are still falling - facts, not statistics, tell the true story!


----------



## jimenato

mancunianlass said:


> I think its best to rent before buying. I am originally from the UK and living in California. I have been thinking of moving to Spain and wonder if its easy to rent a small apartment, or even become a roommate.


Hello!:welcome:

Yes I agree - it's much better to rent than to buy at first. It depends upon where you want to live but you will find plenty of small apartments to rent. Don't know about sharing.


----------



## zenkarma

baldilocks said:


> As for an increase from the end of 2009, prices in the rest of UK are still falling - facts, not statistics, tell the true story!


Yes, as I mentioned a lot does depend on where you're located. London and the South East is generally far more immune to price decreases than the rest of the UK for the simple reason it's the primary business hub of the country. It's where most people work and where they work they want/need to be housed. But the converse is also true, price trends in London and the SE generally tend to ripple out to the rest of the country.

Personally, I've had enough of London and the South East now. I'm a Londoner born and bred and I've lived here all my life but I've finally had enough. It's become far too crowded, noisy, congested and expensive for someone of my somewhat crotchety nature. The house prices can double for all I care, I simply don't want to live here any more, neither do I intend to ever move back.

Now, I can't get out fast enough.


----------



## baldilocks

zenkarma said:


> Yes, as I mentioned a lot does depend on where you're located. London and the South East is generally far more immune to price decreases than the rest of the UK for the simple reason it's the primary business hub of the country. It's where most people work and where they work they want/need to be housed. But the converse is also true, price trends in London and the SE generally tend to ripple out to the rest of the country.
> 
> Personally, I've had enough of London and the South East now. I'm a Londoner born and bred and I've lived here all my life but I've finally had enough. It's become far too crowded, noisy, congested and expensive for someone of my somewhat crotchety nature. The house prices can double for all I care, I simply don't want to live here any more, neither do I intend to ever move back.
> 
> Now, I can't get out fast enough.


But London and the South East were more unrealistically overpriced in the first place so had more of a price fall, irrespective of what the massaged statistics show.

So if you are leaving, as we did, I hope you get in lots of research to avoid the 'frying pan to the fire' syndrome.


----------



## zenkarma

baldilocks said:


> But London and the South East were more unrealistically overpriced in the first place...


Overpriced based on...? 

Someones willingness to pay the 'supposed' market value? About the only way you can realistically price a house is based on its p/e ratio or rather rent earnings (real or supposed) to capital value ratio. Given that monthly rents are also pretty high in London and the South East, it also necessarily follows that house capital values will be likewise.

Im many ways rents have increased far more than house capital values have. Someone earning 50,000 a year could easily afford a monthly rent of £1,500 a month, but couldn't easily buy a house costing £300,000, which is broadly what you would expect to be able to rent that house out at.



baldilocks said:


> So if you are leaving, as we did, I hope you get in lots of research to avoid the 'frying pan to the fire' syndrome.


Well, the house is going to be sold, but where I actually end up hasn't yet been decided. I'll spend some time in various places and settle down where I feel happiest but one thing is for certain, it won't be in the UK and it won't be in Spain either. I suspect I'll be spreading my time between different places.

I want to take a step back and wait and see what happens to the UK and Euro economies because I have a bad feeling that something quite unpleasant is about to happen. Moving into liquid assets may well be the wisest option until I know and understand what's going to happen. 

I have a sneaky feeling interest rates are going to rise earlier than they're predicting and that could have catastrophic effects on the UK housing market. 

The research was begun some time ago. Nowhere is completely immune from what's going on in the global and european economies but I suspect some places will be better able to withstand it than others.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, and as our society revolves around how much people can buy with their salary, the highest salaries commanding the greatest respect regardless of how that money is made, we can conclude that our society is neither civilised nor compassionate.


I think it's been the same since the beginning of history. You only have to think of the very many sayings of Jesus about wealth. ( This won't be a sermon, don't worry, but Catholic social teaching has always been against exploitation, even though the Church hierarchy has ignored it).

Now I've got very little to do with my time apart from the animal charity, I've been reading and thinking a lot and I really believe I made a fundamental mistake when I started getting 'political'. It seems to me that any political view has to be based on some notion of what you think constitutes human nature and I'm beginning to think that the 'modern', post Enlghtenment view is false. Human nature in my view is deeply flawed: we have an inbred highly destructive streak. 
Aggression, accumulativeness, greed, competition are all a part of our human nature. Sadly I can see all these to a greater or lesser extent in myself and many others around me. It's relationships that keep them in check, certainly for me.
But there are also positive characteristics such as compassion and the need for community, which is probably why **** rapiens has survived this long. We need social structures that encourage and nurture these but I think this has to come from communities, organically, not from 'above', handed down or imposed by politicians.

Here endeth the Gospel according to Saint Mary.

Now going to watch David Moyse's first outing as Man U boss.


----------



## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> Overpriced based on...?
> 
> Someones willingness to pay the 'supposed' market value? About the only way you can realistically price a house is based on its p/e ratio or rather rent earnings (real or supposed) to capital value ratio. Given that monthly rents are also pretty high in London and the South East, it also necessarily follows that house capital values will be likewise.
> 
> Im many ways rents have increased far more than house capital values have. Someone earning 50,000 a year could easily afford a monthly rent of £1,500 a month, but couldn't easily buy a house costing £300,000, which is broadly what you would expect to be able to rent that house out at.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the house is going to be sold, but where I actually end up hasn't yet been decided. I'll spend some time in various places and settle down where I feel happiest but one thing is for certain, it won't be in the UK and it won't be in Spain either. I suspect I'll be spreading my time between different places.
> 
> I want to take a step back and wait and see what happens to the UK and Euro economies because I have a bad feeling that something quite unpleasant is about to happen. Moving into liquid assets may well be the wisest option until I know and understand what's going to happen.
> 
> I have a sneaky feeling interest rates are going to rise earlier than they're predicting and that could have catastrophic effects on the UK housing market.
> 
> The research was begun some time ago. Nowhere is completely immune from what's going on in the global and european economies but I suspect some places will be better able to withstand it than others.


Well, zen, I violently disagreed with you over electoral reform but you are telling it like it is on the subject of house prices.
I lived in London for a decade thirty years ago. We rented a flat in a 'nice' part of North London, Muswell Hill. Two incomes and we could just about afford the rent. Can't remember what we paid but it took up a large proportion of our earnings.
When my marriage broke up -amicably, even though I went off with another woman_- I found what was basically two furnished rooms in a less salubrious area not far away - my son was settled at a good primary school and I wanted him to be near his dad so moving away wasn't a consideration.
I was earning an above average salary but after a year sheer pressure of paying the bills and making ends meet drove me out of London to what at first seemed the boonies.
Now I love London. But to get the most out of London you need money. Lots of money. Theatres, cinemas, cafes, restaurants, all the things that make London a world city are there if you can afford the entrance fee. When I was flying to London for my union work I was on generous expenses. Our hotel, the Russell, in Russell Square, was right in the middle of things. British Museum across the Square, Soho and Oxford Street a ten minute walk away...I just loved it. 
Now those visits are a lovely memory. When I go anywhere now I pay and that kind of London experience is now simply not affordable.
When I used to get a taxi in from Heathrow we'd pass through endless suburbia, congested traffic, dull uniformity. That's not the popular image of London but it is real London for most of the people who live there and even outer suburbia is beyond the house purchase means of anyone on an average salary.
It seems Clapton and Brixton are now 'housing hot spots'. Clapton??? Street crime and urban decay de rigeur..
People say New York isn't America and they are right.
And London isn't England and certainly isn't Wales, Northern Ireland and most of Scotland.


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> I lived in London for a decade thirty years ago. We rented a flat in a 'nice' part of North London, Muswell Hill.


Heh, my Great Uncle used to own the old odeon cimema there. This guy

Obituary: Phil Hyams - People - News - The Independent

My Grandparents lived down the road in East Finchley, when they died my parents sold their house at the bottom of the 80's housing crash for 250K, I see today it is valued over a million.

Real estate if you own it is a good hedge against inflation over time as you can see above. So Zen if you own your place outright I would be happier to have my cash in housing rather than liquid, especially as you do not know where you want to be.

edited: On the London expense thing, a good description of London is that is it like a theme park. You go there for a good time but the real estate, ride owners and food stalls get all the money.


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## zenkarma

maxd said:


> So Zen if you own your place outright I would be happier to have my cash in housing rather than liquid, especially as you do not know where you want to be.


I would say that was pretty good advice in principle. It just doesn't factor in the current market bubble which is going to burst at some point for the simple reason that already house prices in London and the South East are over valued compared to average wages and affordability. The only question is when, not if in my mind. I just want to be out of the market when that happens.

I am looking to reinvest some of that money back into property, but I'm looking at another European country where house prices have fallen but in my opinion will rise in the longer term. That represents a better investment and a better place for me to live than staying in the UK.


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## Snozzle12

The UK is a massive bubble but it could last for years and years now that the muscle of the state is supporting it. The state has much more resources than the banks, now they are more cautious about issuing cheap credit the state has implicitly taken over using instruments such as QE and funding for lending, plus explicitly using help to buy and the other scheme which I forget the name of. We are in effect using sovereign debt to 'grow' the housing market...or that is at least that is my take. The Ponzi scheme needs fueling with debt or it collapses.

Not that if I had a lot of wealth I wouldn't feel comfortable holding UK property....like I said so much is invested (financially, emotionally, politically, economically) in rising prices than the Ponzi scheme isn't going to fall over any time soon.

Personally I'm a loser in all this cos my savings are being blitzed to pay for it all, plus my taxes are being wasted, and I don't own a house. I rent, so I am hit with a double whammy of blitzed savings and higher rents which is another side effect.

If it was up to me I'd declare what the government (and BofE) is doing as criminal and put them all in jail but it's not up to me.  

I could afford to buy a house as I have a decent sized deposit but I'm thinking I might like to live somewhere like Spain anyway.


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## jojo

Snozzle12 said:


> The UK is a massive bubble but it could last for years and years now that the muscle of the state is supporting it. The state has much more resources than the banks, now they are more cautious about issuing cheap credit the state has implicitly taken over using instruments such as QE and funding for lending, plus explicitly using help to buy and the other scheme which I forget the name of. We are in effect using sovereign debt to 'grow' the housing market...or that is at least that is my take. The Ponzi scheme needs fueling with debt or it collapses.
> 
> Not that if I had a lot of wealth I wouldn't feel comfortable holding UK property....like I said so much is invested (financially, emotionally, politically, economically) in rising prices than the Ponzi scheme isn't going to fall over any time soon.
> 
> Personally I'm a loser in all this cos my savings are being blitzed to pay for it all, plus my taxes are being wasted, and I don't own a house. I rent, so I am hit with a double whammy of blitzed savings and higher rents which is another side effect.
> 
> If it was up to me I'd declare what the government (and BofE) is doing as criminal and put them all in jail but it's not up to me.
> 
> I could afford to buy a house as I have a decent sized deposit but I'm thinking I might like to live somewhere like Spain anyway.



We probably all feel a bit like that, but in the end there is nowhere to go - you cant run away and avoid it - well you could, but that would involve self sufficient living in a far away land and not having money. So you have to accept it and live by the rules, but try - as you're doing to find the best way to do it - without giving up your principles too much - remember that altho we moan about how our governments are - look at the countries where they dont have such a secure structure - where the masses overthrow and fight, where there is poverty, war, lack of welfare, homes, food...... They're not good places either. 

However, you're young, free and single and have employment. You have great choices, count your blessings, dont waste time getting bent out of shape about paying taxes. Enjoy your life!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## zenkarma

Snozzle12 said:


> The UK is a massive bubble but it could last for years and years now that the muscle of the state is supporting it. The state has much more resources than the banks, now they are more cautious about issuing cheap credit the state has implicitly taken over using instruments such as QE and funding for lending, plus explicitly using help to buy and the other scheme which I forget the name of.


But why is the government funding the housing market is a much better and more pertinent question in my mind. It doesn't really help the economy and as you rightly say, it just creates yet more debt. The answer in my opinion, is because this government is trying to buy itself another term in office by creating a 'feel good factor' about rising house prices. The primary capital asset the core of its voters possess.

It was interesting that Carney stated that interest rates wouldn't rise until at least 2016. Coincidence that date is just after the next election? Not in my opinion. I believe this government is deliberately pushing up house prices prior to the general election and are then going to deliberately push them back down again by raising interest rates.

The reason house prices dipped in the first place is because of the squeeze banks put on mortgage availability post the banking collapse. Talk about closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. They demanded higher deposits and lowered salary multiples, effectively lowering the amount of money someone could borrow and in doing so lowering their own risk to default. Subsequently, house prices declined because less people were able to buy them.

Now, the government has released more funds to the banks and they in turn have relaxed the stringent rules on deposit and salary multiples and house prices start to rise again as more people are able to obtain a mortgage.

If interest rates rise after the next election, this will have the same affect as the original squeeze banks put in mortgage lending—less people will be able to take out mortgages based solely on the fact they now can't afford the higher monthly payments. Those with existing mortgages will also struggle. And prices will decline again.

The government cannot keep interest rates down forever. There are already signs in the markets that rate rises were being factored into prices. The USA recently raised their rates. Inflation is rising and eroding salary increases that are not keeping up with inflation. 

When interest rates rise, the housing market will decline.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> We probably all feel a bit like that, but in the end there is nowhere to go - you cant run away and avoid it - well you could, but that would involve self sufficient living in a far away land and not having money. So you have to accept it and live by the rules, but try - as you're doing to find the best way to do it - without giving up your principles too much - remember that altho we moan about how our governments are - look at the countries where they dont have such a secure structure - where the masses overthrow and fight, where there is *poverty, war, lack of welfare, homes, food...... *They're not good places either.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Some people would say that, proportionally, these 'bad things' are more prevalent now in the UK. Of course it's nonsense to compare DIRECTLY with Somalia, Egypt etc...but very many people in the UK are finding it very hard to make ends meet. Food prices have risen at four times the rate of wages, youth unemployment is rising and in the North East, Wales and parts of Northern Ireland unemployment is rising as are the numbers of long-term unemployed.
We are most of us living well beyond our means, funding expenditure by credit with zero savings. We earn to finance personal debt, not invest.
This is imo more reprehensible as we do not have the back history of Egypt, Ethiopia etc. As the world's first industrialised nation we should be doing better.

We have remedies in our hands but when more people vote on the X Factor contestants than in elections we could be said to be getting the politicians we deserve.

But then when those of us who are comparatively debt-free and cash rich think that we are doing alright, Jack, ignoring the fact that there is a festering sore of discontent beneath our plastic -fuelled 'wealth' and that the truly wealthy, those who number their liquid assets in the £ multi-millions and £billions and earn this wealth by lifting a phone to instruct their brokers are pissing from a great height on us all, there is no hope for meaningful change. No wonder many people choose to live in gated 'communities'. Real communities are formed organically, not as a response to mistrust and fear of our fellow citizens.

We truly now have UK plc and I can't understand why this inept Government doesn't just sell off the nation and all its citizens to some global corporation. After all, all the institutions that once characterised us as a truly compassionate, decent nation have been sold off to those who put profit above all other determining human principles.



Mods, why are you fiddling with the Smilies????


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Heh, my Great Uncle used to own the old odeon cimema there. This guy
> 
> Obituary: Phil Hyams - People - News - The Independent
> 
> 
> 
> edited: On the London expense thing, a good description of London is that is it like a theme park. You go there for a good time but the real estate, ride owners and food stalls get all the money.



That was an interesting read. Any other people like that in your family? Your Great-Uncle contributed more than most politicians to ordinary people's quality and enjoyment of life.
I well remember the Muswell Hill Odeon, saw some great films there. It was also the only cinema I ever walked out of because the film 'Hurry Sundown', with Michael Caine, if I remember rightly, was such crap.
Do you remember the Rex, East Finchley? Another great cinema, used to show double bills of recent 'classics'.
I may have asked you this but did you ever come across film producer called Vegoda...I forget his given name. He produced such enjoyable tripe as 'The Flesh and the Fiends' and 'Live Now, Pay Later'.
He lived in Winnington Avenue and I once visited - I knew his brother, Jeff - and on visiting the loo found a plastic rose on a fluffy toilet seat cover. I've never forgotten that...


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> That was an interesting read. Any other people like that in your family? Your Great-Uncle contributed more than most politicians to ordinary people's quality and enjoyment of life.
> I well remember the Muswell Hill Odeon, saw some great films there. It was also the only cinema I ever walked out of because the film 'Hurry Sundown', with Michael Caine, if I remember rightly, was such crap.
> Do you remember the Rex, East Finchley? Another great cinema, used to show double bills of recent 'classics'.
> I may have asked you this but did you ever come across film producer called Vegoda...I forget his given name. He produced such enjoyable tripe as 'The Flesh and the Fiends' and 'Live Now, Pay Later'.
> He lived in Winnington Avenue and I once visited - I knew his brother, Jeff - and on visiting the loo found a plastic rose on a fluffy toilet seat cover. I've never forgotten that...


In all honesty we just used to ask rich uncle Phil to buy us some comics. I only found out about him later on when I was older.

The only other famous Person in our family I guess was Miriam Karlin

Miriam Karlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you might remember her from the rag trade of the cat lady that was killed in Clockwork orange.

All my family were socialist even though being reasonably wealthy and voted Labour despite being taxed to death. I am not sure of the reason, I think it is something to do with facism and labour being more accommodation in the first half of the last century allowing Jews to settle in the UK.


----------



## Navas

maxd said:


> In all honesty we just used to ask rich uncle Phil to buy us some comics. I only found out about him later on when I was older.
> 
> The only other famous Person in our family I guess was Miriam Karlin
> 
> Miriam Karlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you might remember her from the rag trade of the cat lady that was killed in Clockwork orange.
> 
> All my family were socialist even though being reasonably wealthy and voted Labour despite being taxed to death. I am not sure of the reason, I think it is something to do with facism and labour being more accommodation in the first half of the last century allowing Jews to settle in the UK.


I remember Miriam Karlin in the Rag Trade very well  

Socialism/communism was the way to go if you were Jews in London in the first half of the 20th century. Fascism needed to be fought against. It was considered synonymous with anti-semitism. Just think about the Battle of Cable Street in October 1936, when Oswald Mosley and the BUF attempted to march through the East End where a high proportion of Jews lived. Many Jews also went to Spain to join the International Brigade in support of the Republicans during the civil war. One of my Dad's best friends, a man called Sam Masters, was one of the first Brits (along with his friend Nat Cohen) to cross the border into Spain and fight. He was killed at the Battle of Brunete in 1937. 

My Dad 'flirted' with communism but he had close friends who were very active in the party. He was also at Cable Street and his filming of some of what was going on nearly resulted in his arrest.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> In all honesty we just used to ask rich uncle Phil to buy us some comics. I only found out about him later on when I was older.
> 
> The only other famous Person in our family I guess was Miriam Karlin
> 
> Miriam Karlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you might remember her from the rag trade of the cat lady that was killed in Clockwork orange.
> 
> All my family were socialist even though being reasonably wealthy and voted Labour despite being taxed to death. I am not sure of the reason, I think it is something to do with facism and labour being more accommodation in the first half of the last century allowing Jews to settle in the UK.


Miriam Karlin was a really great comedienne. She was a left-wing activist too and was connected with the famous Unity Theatre in North London. I often saw her at various events but never spoke to her. 
Wealth has nothing to do with poltical opinion..Bevan once famously said after an election defeat 'Even the poor voted against us' and of course much of Thatcher's support came from the famous C1 and C2s.
As a young student in North London I joined the Communist Party and I'd say that 80% of the members were Jewish and wealthy. When I left and joined Labour there were still loads of Jews and again, it being North London, loads of well-heeled middle-class professionals. In those days the top rate of tax was 90% or more...
Strangely, it was imo Mrs. Thatcher who persuaded many Jews to support Conservatism. Before Thatcher, you could bet that a Jewish MP would be Labour but not now.
Yes, you're right, it was to do with fascism but also because even in the UK there was a lot of anti-semitism amongst all classes but especially the so-called 'upper' classes. In fiction of the 1920s and 1930s the wealthy Jew is often portrayed as an outsider in aristocratic circles.
So I'm guessing your family originated from Russia and perhaps lost members during the Holocaust...
It must be interesting for you to be in Prague with its rich Jewish heritage..
Are you fromm, may I ask?


----------



## crookesey

Navas said:


> I remember Miriam Karlin in the Rag Trade very well
> 
> Socialism/communism was the way to go if you were Jews in London in the first half of the 20th century. Fascism needed to be fought against. It was considered synonymous with anti-semitism. Just think about the Battle of Cable Street in October 1936, when Oswald Mosley and the BUF attempted to march through the East End where a high proportion of Jews lived. Many Jews also went to Spain to join the International Brigade in support of the Republicans during the civil war. One of my Dad's best friends, a man called Sam Masters, was one of the first Brits (along with his friend Nat Cohen) to cross the border into Spain and fight. He was killed at the Battle of Brunete in 1937.
> 
> My Dad 'flirted' with communism but he had close friends who were very active in the party. He was also at Cable Street and his filming of some of what was going on nearly resulted in his arrest.


Jews are linked with jobs such as pawn brokers and money lenders because they were banned from the majority of the professions for many years. They are very tough cookies, many of the toughest US gangsters were Jews, they were very prominent in the boxing clubs of my home town and had a half decent Maccabee football team, I also recall the Israeli army making short shift of the mighty Egyptian army in the aptly named six days war in 1967.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Jews are linked with jobs such as pawn brokers and money lenders because they were banned from the majority of the professions for many years. They are very tough cookies, many of the toughest US gangsters were Jews, they were very prominent in the boxing clubs of my home town and had a half decent Maccabee football team, I also recall the Israeli army making short shift of the mighty Egyptian army in the aptly named six days war in 1967.


Until fairly recently in historical terms the Catholic Church banned 'usury' which as things stand now is a bit of a joke. No devout Christian could practise money-lending etc. for fear of eternal damnation so as you say these trades were in many countries exclusively in Jewish hands. 
In Eastern Europe Jews were also prominent in logging and horse-trading, I've no idea why. Little general stores in remote rural areas were in Poland to give one example often run by Jews, a fact that led to some anti-Semitism.
But Jews are people and come in all shapes and sizes...some are tough, others sensitive, some boxers, some artists. Just like Christians they are in all trades and professions in our liberal enlightened times.
I don't think you can say of any religion, ethnicity or nationality that 'they are..'
Some are, some aren't. 
Yes, the Israeli army made short shrift of the six combined Arab armies in the wars of the 1960s but I do think the fact that they were supplied by the US and others with the latest hi-tech arms and other weaponry may have played a role in the swift victory.


----------



## jojo

*OI** I hope you're not squabbling!?!*

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

The forum is for everyone who wants to join in and discuss things - or even those who simply want to have a read thru. We may not agree with others, but we say so politely and then leave it - like grown ups! This isnt a playground and its pointless to get angry with other peoples viewpoints - so dont!

Jo xxx


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## Derek H

RE. Rex cinema East Finchley. Now the Phoenix.
Derek
_just to prove I'm still here_


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## baldilocks

:focus: :focus: :focus: :focus: :focus:


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## Derek H

Got it wrong again. Sorry. I'll stick to just reading.
Derek


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## mrypg9

Derek H said:


> Got it wrong again. Sorry. I'll stick to just reading.
> Derek


Make some more posts and I'll pm you Derek


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## jojo

Derek H said:


> Got it wrong again. Sorry. I'll stick to just reading.
> Derek


Ooooppps LOL!!!! As long as you dont get nasty with the other posters, its fine. I know the thread has gone a bit off topic - most of the long ones do and then MRYPG9 gets political, but that seems to be how it goes. So every now and again we try to reign it in - and stop posters from squabbling - I guess I'm sensitive to bickering right now as its the school holidays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I'm looking to buy an apartment in Nerja in the not too distant future, so I'm interested in the views of the forum - I'm not buying it as an investment, but I'd hate for it to depreciate the minute its mine!!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## baldilocks

Derek check your PMs (Private Messages)


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## zenkarma

jojo said:


> Anyway, I'm looking to buy an apartment in Nerja in the not too distant future, so I'm interested in the views of the forum - I'm not buying it as an investment, but I'd hate for it to depreciate the minute its mine!!!!!


What sort of views were you looking for? It's as good a time as any to be buying a property in Spain at the moment. Has the market hit bottom? It's hard to say because it depends on so many different factors, but I suspect it will fall further before it starts to recover, if it starts to recover. 

Personally I don't think you'll see much increase in Spanish property prices for at least 10 years maybe even longer. Their economy is just struggling too much and their unemployment is simply too high and far too many empty properties for any recovery to happen anytime soon. With any future possible rise in interest rates stalling the market even further. 

Add in that the government seems determined to increase purchase transaction costs and running costs in higher utility bills and IBI taxes and it just adds to the problem.

The key I think is to negotiate a price you're happy paying in this market, possibly factoring in any potential future price falls. But you must expect higher monthly running costs and these will keep on increasing.

There are still bargains to be had if you're patient and prepared to negotiate hard over the asking price. Cash buyers are king, I'm not sure I'd want to take a mortgage out on one.


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## jojo

No, we wouldnt be taking out a mortgage, but we are selling our UK house for something smaller in the UK (to stop the kids flying_ back_ to the nest lol!!!) and Spain is where my heart is. We rented last winter and are going to again this winter, but we're also gonna look to buy something....... Who knows, but its where I want to be

Jo xxx


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## zenkarma

jojo said:


> We rented last winter and are going to again this winter, but we're also gonna look to buy something....... Who knows, but its where I want to be


Well, if you're downsizing anyway it's pointless putting money into the bank. The interest return is so paltry and it gets eroded by inflation to the point that the buying power of that money goes down year on year. 

It's terrible isn't it that any money anyone saves gets raided and shrunk by this governments policies? Is it any wonder so many people have so much debt? The government hardly encourages anyone to save...and actively encourages them to spend and borrow.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Ooooppps LOL!!!! As long as you dont get nasty with the other posters, its fine. I know the thread has gone a bit off topic - most of the long ones do and then MRYPG9 gets political, but that seems to be how it goes. So every now and again we try to reign it in - and stop posters from squabbling - I guess I'm sensitive to bickering right now as its the school holidays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Anyway, I'm looking to buy an apartment in Nerja in the not too distant future, so I'm interested in the views of the forum - I'm not buying it as an investment, but I'd hate for it to depreciate the minute its mine!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Everything is political when you get to thinking about it. Certainly house prices are very much affected by politics. The title of this thread is based on politics. The artificial regeneration of the UK housing market is very much a matter of politics. Even the reformas at our perrera are political!
What is not permissible imo is misrepresenting any poster's views as that can be extremely offensive.
Whether your apartment will hold its value or not will depend very much on the state not only of the Spanish economy but the economy of the eurosone as a whole.
But if it won't be an investment, it won't matter. You will have bought it to enjoy.


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## crookesey

To all none Brits reading this thread you must understand that we have a fascination with property ownership that appears to be unparalleled. Unless you have experience of social housing in the UK, and the bureaucracy attached to it you will not understand our urge to be the masters of our own destiny where our home is concerned.

I'm in the process of divesting myself of some property in the UK, probably not the best time, but I am unable to predict market forces. If I waited until the time was right I would be that much older, and you can't get lost time back. If folk are serious about buying, now is the best time there has been for many a year. However if you decide to wait for a total collapse of the Spanish property market, remember not to get all tearful if you end up missing the boat.


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## mrypg9

Bureaucracy attached to social housing?? Please amplify, I'm intrigued.
You sign a rental contract. Simples. Like private lets although of course there is often bureaucracy involved there with Housing Benefit applications.
And the taxpayer picks up the bill.

One reason why many people are pressurised into buying is the acute shortage of social housing and affordable private lets especially in the south-east.

People aldo mistakenly believe that a house will be a solid asset whose value can only increase which is true in the very long run in most cases.

A mortgage holder is at the mercy of interest rates and is often in debt to the mortgage for many decades. Some 'masters' when you think about it.


----------



## maxd

crookesey said:


> To all none Brits reading this thread you must understand that we have a fascination with property ownership that appears to be unparalleled. Unless you have experience of social housing in the UK, and the bureaucracy attached to it you will not understand our urge to be the masters of our own destiny where our home is concerned.
> 
> I'm in the process of divesting myself of some property in the UK, probably not the best time, but I am unable to predict market forces. If I waited until the time was right I would be that much older, and you can't get lost time back. If folk are serious about buying, now is the best time there has been for many a year. However if you decide to wait for a total collapse of the Spanish property market, remember not to get all tearful if you end up missing the boat.



IMO the UK is going to rocket over the next 18 months. It is already heating up because of the stupid buy scheme from the Tories. You can probably make 20% more before it crashes and burns in 2015.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article41905.html


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## zenkarma

maxd said:


> IMO the UK is going to rocket over the next 18 months. It is already heating up because of the stupid buy scheme from the Tories. You can probably make 20% more before it crashes and burns in 2015.


I'm getting out now.

That article confirms my hunch and what I believe that interest rates are going to rise much sooner than people realise, probably after the next election. The UK housing market is going to be real carnage when that happens and I don't want to be holding property when it does. Rising interest rates will be the pin that pricks the bubble.


----------



## crookesey

Well you're going to a basket case with horrendous unemployment figures, however if you have independent means and want a cheap property I can see where you're coming from, how do you stand pensions and taxation wise?


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## zenkarma

crookesey said:


> Well you're going to a basket case with horrendous unemployment figures, however if you have independent means and want a cheap property I can see where you're coming from, how do you stand pensions and taxation wise?


Huh?

I'm not going to live in Spain. I have a holiday apartment there, I'm not going to live there full time.

I'm simply selling my house, that doesn't automatically mean I'm going to spain to live.


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## crookesey

It was the 'getting out' that foxed me, you obviously meant getting out of UK property ownership. I think that you're wrong as there is no example of a property crash in a country that has a considerable property shortage.


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## Chopera

crookesey said:


> It was the 'getting out' that foxed me, you obviously meant getting out of UK property ownership. I think that you're wrong as there is no example of a property crash in a country that has a considerable property shortage.


You must have missed the crashes between 1990 and 1995, and between 2008 and well, depending on where you live, the 2008 crash either stopped in 2010 or is still ongoing. However I agree that prices in the UK look like they are heading upwards in the near future.


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## zenkarma

crookesey said:


> I think that you're wrong as there is no example of a property crash in a country that has a considerable property shortage.


I may well be wrong, but all the reports and analysis I've read points to UK House prices being over-valued by at least 20-30% when compared to wages and affordability. With possible future increases of 10-20% and rising interest rates on the horizon pushing prices and affordability even further out of reach of your average wage earner the only likely result in my mind is a house price reset.

Nevertheless, I am not foolish enough to base my decision to sell solely on the likely possible price movements of the house market. I no longer need to be located in the South East of England and positively want to move out of the South East and downsize to a smaller property located outside of the South East and possibly in another European city.

With the market hitting a peak from the reset of 2008/9 now seems the ideal time for me to sell up and downsize to somewhere more affordable.


----------



## Snozzle12

crookesey said:


> It was the 'getting out' that foxed me, you obviously meant getting out of UK property ownership. I think that you're wrong as there is no example of a property crash in a country that has a considerable property shortage.


The UK is in a funny place, it is arguable that no property market in history has been rigged, manipulated, helped by the state as much as ours rights now, given that interest rates have been at sustained 300 year lows, we have had QE, funding for lending, and now help to buy, and the other scheme which I forget the name of.

In the UK we have what I might call a property fetish, defying all reason.


----------



## crookesey

Chopera said:


> You must have missed the crashes between 1990 and 1995, and between 2008 and well, depending on where you live, the 2008 crash either stopped in 2010 or is still ongoing. However I agree that prices in the UK look like they are heading upwards in the near future.


The UK has never had a property crash, every time it went down in price it came back again, sorry but I don't think that I've missed anything, don't they call it volatility?


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## antonw

Anytime is a good time to invest in property! I have been to spain a lot of times and it's the villas these Fine & Country Spain - Home which attract me there!


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## antonw

crookesey said:


> The UK has never had a property crash, every time it went down in price it came back again, sorry but I don't think that I've missed anything, don't they call it volatility?


Anytime is a good time to invest in property! I have been to spain a lot of times and it's the villas these Fine & Country Spain - Home which attract me there!


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## mrypg9

Snozzle12 said:


> The UK is in a funny place, it is arguable that no property market in history has been rigged, manipulated, helped by the state as much as ours rights now, given that interest rates have been at sustained 300 year lows, we have had QE, funding for lending, and now help to buy, and the other scheme which I forget the name of.
> 
> In the UK we have what I might call a property fetish, defying all reason.


Very true indeed.
I was thinking during my siesta about the pros and cons of buying and renting. Now I've owned property ever since I started working ...because it was what everyone did.
The places I bought were in the main lower grade listed buildings so I could buy them cash for a comparatively small price, get local authority grants to renovate them and work on them as time and resources allowed. One I lived in for many years, the others I rented. 
Now I rent myself, having sold all of them. 
I thought of the pros of 'home ownership' and could think of very few!
The cons are many:
most people do not 'own' their property, they are buying it on hire purchase. They won't even have the deeds in most cases, the lender will have them.
You are at the mercy of interest rates which are low now, true enough, but aren't going to stay like that for ever.
You are at the mercy of the markets: the value of your property will never be fixed and constant.
You are at the mercy of local authorities: it's rare that you will be served a CPO for the construction of a rail line or similar...although many people were affected by the line to the new terminal a few years back and more will be by HS2.
You may find that your lovely house in a rural setting will be affected by planning permission for a sewerage works, power station, wind farm or....fracking.
You are responsible for repairs and maintenance.

The pro is of course that your property will in nearly every case appreciate considerably, although there again it depends on the state of the market when you sell.

Pros of renting:
You can move whenever you like if the neighbourhood deteriorates or you need to move for work reasons.
You don't pay for major repairs.
You are protected by laws which in Spain at least favour the tenant, as does the renta lmarket.

Cons: You are putting money in a landlord's pocket - although of course you pay on your mortgage much more in interest than the purchase price.
Your rent can be increased. But you have the option of moving or appealing to a Tribunal.

When you think about it seriously there are few advantages in house purchase unless you own several for rental income...and I'd say you need more than a few to make it a worthwhile investment.
So why do we do it? We become almost serfs in our pursuit of 'owning' property. Other European nations aren't so humg up on it, apart from Spain where home 'ownership' runs at 84%..and look where that's got them!
So why this fixation?


----------



## mrypg9

Snozzle12 said:


> The UK is in a funny place, it is arguable that no property market in history has been rigged, manipulated, helped by the state as much as ours rights now, given that interest rates have been at sustained 300 year lows, we have had QE, funding for lending, and now help to buy, and the other scheme which I forget the name of.
> 
> In the UK we have what I might call a property fetish, defying all reason.


Like I said...it's all political


----------



## crookesey

Well I've put circa £150K into property, albeit it being now worth around £800K, and I don't consider myself an expert. I did borrow around £90K and was never comfortable with it, interest rates were high but I've come out OK, but never get too smart about property investment.


----------



## baldilocks

As most of you know, we own ours outright, so for us it was the right thing to do. It enables the three of us plus menagerie to live very comfortably on €650 per month including everything. Our lifestyle by some people's standards is not super duper but we are comfortable with no monthly mortgage or rent payment to find (been there, done that!) and it gives us a sense of security to know that even if repairs or improvements need to be done we can cope with that (we are currently have the house re-roofed and a solar panel installed and have already replaced our car this year - all for cash). We can afford to have at least one holiday per year, so for us house ownership is the right thing to do.

As always, it is horses for courses!


----------



## Snozzle12

The UK is a mess, you almost have to jump into the Ponzi scheme or get left behind paying sky high rents which is a consequence and cause of the rush into property, like a circular cause and effect.

People left behind will be a precarious lot while an ever shrinking class of owners monopolise the asset class in question and live off the sweat of the precarious.

It really sucks and is making me lose faith in the UK as a decent society.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> As most of you know, *we own ours outright*, so for us it was the right thing to do. It enables the three of us plus menagerie to live very comfortably on €650 per month including everything. Our lifestyle by some people's standards is not super duper but we are comfortable with no monthly mortgage or rent payment to find (been there, done that!) and it gives us a sense of security to know that even if repairs or improvements need to be done we can cope with that (we are currently have the house re-roofed and a solar panel installed and have already replaced our car this year - all for cash). We can afford to have at least one holiday per year, so for us house ownership is the right thing to do.
> 
> As always, it is horses for courses!



That's true, Baldy. But your highlighted phrase is the one that makes a big difference.
In your pm you mentioned people not doing things they can't afford. That's my way of looking at things too.
A thirty-year commitment to a mortgage would worry me.
Some years back on the coast near us a guy shot himself on the beach...he had lost his job and owed £9000 in mortgage arrears.
Of course years ago the 'professional' job market was quite stable, you had a job for life, more or less. But that's all changed now with many functions now being contracted out and the core workforce severely diminished.
If I were in your position I would probably have bought too but when we came here we weren't sure we'd stay.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> That's true, Baldy. But your highlighted phrase is the one that makes a big difference.
> In your pm you mentioned people not doing things they can't afford. That's my way of looking at things too.
> A thirty-year commitment to a mortgage would worry me.
> Some years back on the coast near us a guy shot himself on the beach...he had lost his job and owed £9000 in mortgage arrears.
> Of course years ago the 'professional' job market was quite stable, you had a job for life, more or less. But that's all changed now with many functions now being contracted out and the core workforce severely diminished.
> If I were in your position I would probably have bought too but when we came here we weren't sure we'd stay.


I guess it all comes down to the one factor that is common to most things in life - whether you are prepared to commit yourself lock, stock and barrel and when that comes to moving to a new country, it means doing lots of research so that you can commit yourself to the project l,s&b.

If only go into things half-heartedly, then they will usually fail.


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> I guess it all comes down to the one factor that is common to most things in life - whether you are prepared to commit yourself lock, stock and barrel and when that comes to moving to a new country, it means doing lots of research so that you can commit yourself to the project l,s&b.
> 
> If only go into things half-heartedly, then they will usually fail.


 It also depends on your loved ones and dependents!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I guess it all comes down to the one factor that is common to most things in life - whether you are prepared to commit yourself lock, stock and barrel and when that comes to moving to a new country, it means doing lots of research so that you can commit yourself to the project l,s&b.
> 
> If only go into things half-heartedly, then they will usually fail.


Very true, o Wise One

One other point: we all know house prices fluctuate and eventually regain their value but that is of small consolation to those who through force of circumstance are obliged to sell at the bottom of a 'trough'.
Especially if, as is the case with so many in Spain, they have negative equity.


----------



## Pazcat

Hi Mary, I was going to have a big reply but I think you and Baldi have covered many points I would of also brought up. I have thought of this question too a lot recently.
However while I can understand a lot of the points you have made I don't really I think I feel the same way about them but that's not to say either perspective is the best way forward.
I always say everyone is different and have different wants and needs so what works for me wont work for you.

For instance I've seen people saying how awful it would be to live in the sticks, for me that would be ideal. Still I digress..

I think the important thing to remember is outright ownership though as you mentioned.



mrypg9 said:


> Very true indeed.
> I was thinking during my siesta about the pros and cons of buying and renting.
> 
> I thought of the pros of 'home ownership' and could think of very few!
> The cons are many:
> most people do not 'own' their property, they are buying it on hire purchase. They won't even have the deeds in most cases, the lender will have them.
> 
> * I'm not sure I fully understand this, is it just a case of you don't own it until you have paid it off at considerable interest or do you mean another quirk of ownership I am missing?
> If so this is true but it's only a temporary arrangement, the end goal is the same and after however many years I'd be happier owning something than not. You don't get rent money back.*
> 
> 
> You are at the mercy of interest rates which are low now, true enough, but aren't going to stay like that for ever.
> 
> *For the most part though this isn't too big of a problem, then again although I'm probably younger than some I am still a bit old school in my ways and I personally feel that if interest rates will kill your mortgage then maybe you should not of had one in the first place. Work a bit longer and save some more.
> That's how I was brought up anyway and I do realise times have changed considerably and the crisis is not just a Spanish phenomenon but still I wouldn't venture into a deal if it was balanced on that much of a knife edge.*
> 
> 
> You are at the mercy of the markets: the value of your property will never be fixed and constant.
> 
> *Unless you are a speculator or own multiple properties for rent then I don't see it as an issue, it may be a little disheartening but if you plan on passing the property down the real value is in the fact it's your home and not the market.*
> 
> 
> You are at the mercy of local authorities: it's rare that you will be served a CPO for the construction of a rail line or similar...although many people were affected by the line to the new terminal a few years back and more will be by HS2.
> 
> *While this is true, it's rare and something 99% of people will never have to worry about. Although if it does happen in rare circumstances it can even be profitable.
> I recommend an Australian movie called the Castle which is about a family holding ground over an airport expansion which was based on a true story.*
> 
> You may find that your lovely house in a rural setting will be affected by planning permission for a sewerage works, power station, wind farm or....fracking.
> 
> *As above.*
> 
> You are responsible for repairs and maintenance.
> 
> *In Belgium you are responsible for all that when you rent anyway.
> Bitterness aside I actually see that as a good thing, I'd much rather be in control of my own destiny and not rely on someone else to do a job I would of done differently, better and faster.
> It's my property and I should be proud to keep it up to a good standard.*
> 
> The pro is of course that your property will in nearly every case appreciate considerably, although there again it depends on the state of the market when you sell.
> 
> *If and when you sell, many people don't. That said if we buy a property in Spain no doubt a time will come when we leave and have to make a decision and frankly it's a good time to buy for a long term investment and any loss made(I find hard to see) will be minimal because we would be buying at the bottom of the market.
> The same can't be said for other markets, Australia for one and maybe the UK too.*
> 
> Pros of renting:
> You can move whenever you like if the neighbourhood deteriorates or you need to move for work reasons.
> 
> *True, you never know where life will send you next but the same would apply if you were an owner, although it would be dependent on whether or not you can sell, rent your property. Something that's relatively easy to do anywhere other than Spain.
> I totally understand this point though.*
> 
> You don't pay for major repairs.
> 
> *I'd rather pay for them, actually no I wouldn't but it goes back to the other point I made above. Probably not the most logical point but it is important.*
> 
> You are protected by laws which in Spain at least favour the tenant, as does the renta lmarket.
> 
> *Not really an issue if you own outright.*
> 
> Cons: You are putting money in a landlord's pocket - although of course you pay on your mortgage much more in interest than the purchase price.
> 
> *After all that is said before and after this is the most important factor of them all.*
> 
> Your rent can be increased. But you have the option of moving or appealing to a Tribunal.
> 
> *True.*
> 
> When you think about it seriously there are few advantages in house purchase unless you own several for rental income...and I'd say you need more than a few to make it a worthwhile investment.
> So why do we do it? We become almost serfs in our pursuit of 'owning' property. Other European nations aren't so humg up on it, apart from Spain where home 'ownership' runs at 84%..and look where that's got them!
> So why this fixation?


I don't know but it probably comes down to days gone by when it was not only a sensible thing to do but maybe family values mattered more. That's a loaded statement but I don't mean it to be but it's a simple life lesson. Work hard and provide for your family and you don't have to line someone elses pockets. It's probably as much about empowerment than anything else.

Lastly I would add one more con to the list of renting.

It's not your property and you can't do whatever you like to it.
I don't know anyone who would spend thousands on a home extension or kitchen renovation to enhance the value of someone elses property.

Fair enough you can always move I hear the cries, well I have just moved and I don't really want to have to do that every time I grow tired of the bathroom tiles, we have a lot of crap. Moving is a pain and while it is an answer and shouldn't be ruled out it wouldn't be my first choice.


----------



## baldilocks

In our situation, we bought for somewhere that we could live in for the rest of our lives not as an investment. If, when the last of us quits this mortal coil (as someone once said) the house is only worth a fraction of what it cost us, who cares? We have no kids, nobody to pass it on to, so what we have is ours to do with, as we wish.

We are most unlikely to be affected by a CPO for an airport/motorway/carpark or anything else. Our house doesn't depend on another for support so provided we maintain it to a good standard, there's no reason for it not to outlast us.


----------



## Chopera

crookesey said:


> The UK has never had a property crash, every time it went down in price it came back again, sorry but I don't think that I've missed anything, don't they call it volatility?


Yes and the UK never had a housing boom because every time house prices went up they came back down again!  I agree that the underlying trend in the UK has been that of increasing house prices, and that this has probably been driven by the increasing population. However along the way you get bubbles, and crashes. A crash isn't defined as prices falling and staying low permanently, it is defined by prices falling significantly over a certain period. If they go up again later on it doesn't stop it from being a crash.

This is part of the problem with credit driven economies - the biggest investment most people make becomes too much of a gamble. If you buy in 1989 you get screwed, if you buy in 1995 you are on to a winner. It's not very meritocratic.


----------



## mrypg9

Pazcat said:


> Hi Mary, I was going to have a big reply but I think you and Baldi have covered many points I would of also brought up. I have thought of this question too a lot recently.
> However while I can understand a lot of the points you have made I don't really I think I feel the same way about them but that's not to say either perspective is the best way forward.
> I always say everyone is different and have different wants and needs so what works for me wont work for you.
> 
> For instance I've seen people saying how awful it would be to live in the sticks, for me that would be ideal. Still I digress..
> 
> I think the important thing to remember is outright ownership though as you mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know but it probably comes down to days gone by when it was not only a sensible thing to do but maybe family values mattered more. That's a loaded statement but I don't mean it to be but it's a simple life lesson. Work hard and provide for your family and you don't have to line someone elses pockets. It's probably as much about empowerment than anything else.
> 
> Lastly I would add one more con to the list of renting.
> 
> It's not your property and you can't do whatever you like to it.
> I don't know anyone who would spend thousands on a home extension or kitchen renovation to enhance the value of someone elses property.
> 
> Fair enough you can always move I hear the cries, well I have just moved and I don't really want to have to do that every time I grow tired of the bathroom tiles, we have a lot of crap. Moving is a pain and while it is an answer and shouldn't be ruled out it wouldn't be my first choice.


Thanks for that thoughtful and considered reply. I agree with much of what you say

Just want to reply to a couple of tiny piints, niggles really, not substantial: if you have a mortgage the owner of the property will be the lender and will not release the title deeds until the debt is paid off..But that won't matter to 99.9% of homebuyers.
The other point was being able to do what you like with 'your' property: many local authorities in the UK are very strict about whst you can or can't do with your property, things like what you can use it for, what you can build on to it, even in some areas what colour you can paint it! But again the UK government has relaxed some of those restrictions.
I think you're right in that your attitude depends very much on age and even nationality, or where you are living. I'm older than you and am also extremely risk adverse so I'm uber-cautious and bought only when it was almost 1005% safe to do so. But at the first sign of problems I sold our properties and if we had held my nerve we could perhaps have made more.
Belgium's rental laws seem harsh..May I be curious and ask why you chose to live in Belgium? Did you work for the EU?
I visited Brussels for a Conference at the EU Parliament and was very impressed. The fact I had an excellent dinner played a large role in that!


----------



## Pazcat

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for that thoughtful and considered reply. I agree with much of what you say
> 
> Just want to reply to a couple of tiny piints, niggles really, not substantial: if you have a mortgage the owner of the property will be the lender and will not release the title deeds until the debt is paid off..But that won't matter to 99.9% of homebuyers.
> 
> *That's what I thought you meant but wanted to double check, I don't think it would matter to most because apart from paying upfront cash it's really the only way to go about it.
> If you can.*
> 
> The other point was being able to do what you like with 'your' property: many local authorities in the UK are very strict about whst you can or can't do with your property, things like what you can use it for, what you can build on to it, even in some areas what colour you can paint it! But again the UK government has relaxed some of those restrictions.
> 
> *While I failed to mention that I did at least take it into consideration in my head. You're right, of course and it's possibly even more complicated in Spain but at least you have the option to do what you want, within regulations. I wouldn't buy a property if I didn't think I'd be allowed to build an observatory for instance.
> Even things like a veggie patch, now you may get your landlord to reluctantly give the go ahead but don't be upset if you get a bill for thousands to restore the garden to it's original state.
> I feel a little trapped in a rented property as you don't have the freedom to make it totally yours*
> 
> Belgium's rental laws seem harsh..May I be curious and ask why you chose to live in Belgium? Did you work for the EU?
> 
> *Hmmm, the less said about Belgiums laws and oddities the better I think, really it's a nice place.
> 
> As an Aussie I wouldn't be able to work for the EU, I think. Also I'm not suited to office jobs.
> 
> I moved for love, no ulterior motives, no plan, no idea other than just to be together. Now we have two kids together and all seems to be going well(touch wood).
> My wife was working in the satellite industry in Brussels at the time so that's where we were. *
> 
> I visited Brussels for a Conference at the EU Parliament and was very impressed. The fact I had an excellent dinner played a large role in that!


I have never been that side of town but a good dinner will always help things, maybe they have cut the food budget and that has something to do with why they are all so difficult these days.


----------



## mrypg9

Pazcat said:


> I have never been that side of town but a good dinner will always help things, maybe they have cut the food budget and that has something to do with why they are all so difficult these days.


No, I didn't dine at the EU...although we had a sumptuous lunch there..At our expense, of course

It was at a restaurant attached to the Holiday Inn..it had a star or two. I had boeuf a la Flamande which was superb and the waiter took as much care over selecting a beer to accompany the dish as with a fine wine.


----------



## Pazcat

Oh yes, the beer is something they do very well. 
It's not just your average lager that's for sure.


----------



## Guest

*2013 2nd quarter values calculated by Gesvalt*

I can't vouch for the accuracy of these numbers, but a real estate friend in Madrid uses their services.

23,54% drop in value overall from the same period last year.

3 Provinces rose: Asturias (+8,26%), La Rioja (+3,81) and Cantabria (+1,98%).

Declines were: Aragon (-31,92%), Navarra (-17,65%), Cataluña (-15,61%), Baleares (-14,33%), Castilla-La Mancha (-12,21%), La Comunidad Valenciana (-10,79%), Extremadura (-10,17%), La Comunidad de Madrid (-9,64%), Andalucía (-7,98%), Murcia (-6,28%), País Vasco (-5,37%), Canarias (-4,91%), Castilla y León (-2,42%) y Galicia (-1,38%).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mysticsmick said:


> I can't vouch for the accuracy of these numbers, but a real estate friend in Madrid uses their services.
> 
> 23,54% drop in value overall from the same period last year.
> 
> 3 Provinces rose: Asturias (+8,26%), La Rioja (+3,81) and Cantabria (+1,98%).
> 
> Declines were: Aragon (-31,92%), Navarra (-17,65%), Cataluña (-15,61%), Baleares (-14,33%), Castilla-La Mancha (-12,21%), La Comunidad Valenciana (-10,79%), Extremadura (-10,17%), La Comunidad de Madrid (-9,64%), Andalucía (-7,98%), Murcia (-6,28%), País Vasco (-5,37%), Canarias (-4,91%), Castilla y León (-2,42%) y Galicia (-1,38%).



I just Googled *precio vivienda España 2014*.
On the first page there were 3 headlines that said (repectively) that housing in Spain would fall by 10%, and 82% in 2014 and by 75% until 2050, so if anyone's waiting for the market to bottom, you might have a long wait!


----------



## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> I just Googled precio vivienda España 2014.
> On the first page there were 3 headlines that said (repectively) that housing in Spain would fall by 10%, and 82% in 2014 and by 75% until 2050, so if anyone's waiting for the market to bottom, you might have a long wait!


Where are those headlines coming from, el blog de Paquito or reputable sources? I sure hope they are from blogs, or I am going to have to find some tinto...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> Where are those headlines coming from, el blog de Paquito or reputable sources? I sure hope they are from blogs, or I am going to have to find some tinto...


A little faith please elenetxu...
Idealista.com which is the group that publishes THE reference list of housing prices every month in Spain
Eleconomista.es renowned economic publication
Intereconomia media group influenced by centre/ right politics
ETC
Alternatively, do your own Google
What does it matter to you anyway? You've already bought haven't you? You're not thinking of moving already are you?


----------



## NickZ

Do you guys intend to buy a whole province? -) If not worrying about overall average prices doesn't make a lot of sense.

While you can find similar houses you need to look at the houses that match your needs/wants and not averages.


----------



## crookesey

When you see properties of the like of those linked bungalows in Torrevieja, thrown up by Masa 30 odd years ago and sold for very little, now on sale for circa £80K, one wonders what could be worse. I suppose that their saving grace is that they are close to the coast, unlike some of the stuff overlooking motorways.

As I see matters there are very few cash buyers around and the folk harbouring ambitions of buying second homes are so hocked up with debt that they can't put a deposit down, even their credit cards are loaded. There are and always have been only two factors that move markets, these being greed and fear, the latter being the current boss.

If someone wishes to sell up and move to Spain they would most probably take a hit on their home land property, but could pick up a real bargain in Spain, however they can't have it all their own way. As soon as the UK property market starts to pick up so will that of Spain. The greatest second home owners, namely the Germans, aren't interested in Spain anymore, and I don't see the Russians solving the problem.

Spain will just have to be patient.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

NickZ said:


> Do you guys intend to buy a whole province? -) If not worrying about overall average prices doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> While you can find similar houses you need to look at the houses that match your needs/wants and not averages.


Personally I'm not looking to move on from where I am for the next 15 - 20 years!


----------



## mrypg9

NickZ said:


> Do you guys intend to buy a whole province? -) If not worrying about overall average prices doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> While you can find similar houses you need to look at the houses that match your needs/wants and not averages.


Wise words.

It seems that it will take another ten to fifteen years before the Spanish market will stabilise. House prices may well be rising in the UK but it is very unlikely this will lead to a corresponding rise in Spain for two reasons: firstly, as has been pointed out many times, the price rises in the UK have been stoked by government subsidy and secondly Spain has a glut of housing whereas the UK has a shortage.
Other factors than fear and greed affect markets. Government intervention and the age-old forces of supply and demand are among the chief motivators.
I read somewhere that Spanish banks and developers are holding huge reserves of land which will if released further depress the market.
Has anyone else read this?
High-end properties are selling in this area and the Russian presence is having an impact at least where luxury properties are concerned.
The fact that Sur has launched a Russian version and that there are glossy Russian - language magazines featuring multi-million euro villas seem to substantiate their growing importance.'


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> The fact that Sur has launched a Russian version and that there are glossy Russian - language magazines featuring multi-million euro villas seem to substantiate their growing importance.'


I have only just received notification of the posting and the times is 20.43 If this is an example of the new management in action, please can we have the old management back, otherwise we will have to consider defecting.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> I have only just received notification of the posting and the times is 20.43 If this is an example of the new management in action, please can we have the old management back, otherwise we will have to consider defecting.


If you are talking about being notified of posts on threads, I've been having trouble with that all day.
It'll probably be sorted tomorrow.


----------



## Navas

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you are talking about being notified of posts on threads, I've been having trouble with that all day.
> It'll probably be sorted tomorrow.


Me too!


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you are talking about being notified of posts on threads, I've been having trouble with that all day.
> It'll probably be sorted tomorrow.


and yesterday as well, in fact a number of the posts, I have received this evening were nearly 24 hours old.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> and yesterday as well, in fact a number of the posts, I have received this evening were nearly 24 hours old.


True.
Also, now and again a lot get dumped in the spam...


----------



## crookesey

baldilocks said:


> and yesterday as well, in fact a number of the posts, I have received this evening were nearly 24 hours old.


24 hours at our age is almost 3 months. 

How's my ban going by the way?


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> True.
> Also, now and again a lot get dumped in the spam...


Funnily enough mine never do, in fact my Spam folder performs just as it is supposed to. I also use it as an intermediate stage when deleting a suspicious post because if I just delete, then it goes in the bin and I have to remember to delete them from the bin (other things I don't, just in case) but if I put it in Spam, then not only will the system remember for the future, but I delete the contents of Spam permanently, several times a day and then it has gone for good


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> A little faith please elenetxu...
> Idealista.com which is the group that publishes THE reference list of housing prices every month in Spain
> Eleconomista.es renowned economic publication
> Intereconomia media group influenced by centre/ right politics
> ETC
> Alternatively, do your own Google
> What does it matter to you anyway? You've already bought haven't you? You're not thinking of moving already are you?


I wouldn't trust idealista's figures on house prices - they only go by asking prices (like Rightmove in the UK) and we all know that asking prices in Spain are in la la land. The TINSA index is a bit better, although it does seem to lag by about 6 months, and also the notaries give out figures which I guess are pretty close to transaction prices.

However the fact is there is no really accurate Spanish house price data in the public domain so all these predictions are based on poor information. I read some predictions claiming that prices are going to fall by another 30% but those same sources claim that prices have only fallen by 20%. My experience is that prices have already fallen by at least 50% from peak (in Madrid at least) and I think they will fall a bit further on average. However that doesn't mean it's not a good time to buy now if you can find something you like at a decent price.


----------



## zenkarma

Chopera said:


> My experience is that prices have already fallen by at least 50% from peak (in Madrid at least) and I think they will fall a bit further on average. However that doesn't mean it's not a good time to buy now if you can find something you like at a decent price.


I agree.

I'd say prices have fallen about 50-60% from what they were at the peak of the market, at least on the South Coast. That's based on a wide variety of sources, charts, statistics, articles and from my own experience of what my flat was purchased for, what its value was at the peak and what it's worth now.

I also agree that now is as good a time as any to buy. There's plenty of choice and being a buyers market you can negotiate some pretty good deals, particularly if you factor in a further 10-20% drop in the market.

Personally I don't really see the market dropping much further than it is at the moment. I think its reached a natural plateau. That's not to say that people should pay the current asking prices because many of them are still over-priced for what they are. It's up to individuals to decide the right price for a property based on their own personal criteria and what its worth to them.

I always think rental yield is a pretty good indicator of a property's capital value. If you can easily rent an apartment for €500 a month and that's the general going rate for those apartments then that values the apartment at around €100-120,000. If it's on sale at €150,000 you know its still 20-30% over priced.


----------



## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> I agree.
> 
> I'd say prices have fallen about 50-60% from what they were at the peak of the market, at least on the South Coast. That's based on a wide variety of sources, charts, statistics, articles and from my own experience of what my flat was purchased for, what its value was at the peak and what it's worth now.
> 
> I also agree that now is as good a time as any to buy. There's plenty of choice and being a buyers market you can negotiate some pretty good deals, particularly if you factor in a further 10-20% drop in the market.
> 
> Personally I don't really see the market dropping much further than it is at the moment. I think its reached a natural plateau. That's not to say that people should pay the current asking prices because many of them are still over-priced for what they are. It's up to individuals to decide the right price for a property based on their own personal criteria and what its worth to them.
> 
> I always think rental yield is a pretty good indicator of a property's capital value. If you can easily rent an apartment for €500 a month and that's the general going rate for those apartments then that values the apartment at around €100-120,000. If it's on sale at €150,000 you know its still 20-30% over priced.


Are you assuming a rental yield of around 2-3% of asset value, then? That is, after tax etc..


----------



## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> Are you assuming a rental yield of around 2-3% of asset value, then? That is, after tax etc..


I'm assuming a rental yield of 5-6% of asset value before expenses and deductions. You can't factor in taxation because not everyone will be liable for it, nor can you factor in tax deductions because not everyone will qualify for them.

5-6% rental yield on asset value is the general ratio I use. But even that will vary depending on property and location. Eg a 4-6 bed Villa will likely produce a lower rental yield % based on asset value than say a 1 - 2 bedroom flat and a centre of a major city a different yield to somewhere further out.


----------



## Sirtravelot

A question for you guys.

If one buys a decent house in a decent area in a decent part of the country...

...how long do you think one would have to wait to sell the house again? A decade? More?


----------



## mrypg9

Sirtravelot said:


> A question for you guys.
> 
> If one buys a decent house in a decent area in a decent part of the country...
> 
> ...how long do you think one would have to wait to sell the house again? A decade? More?


Well, in spite of our presence, this is supposed to be a decent area in a very decent part of the country. Houses that were valued at over a million euros ten years ago are now offered at half that price, some of them.
We've lived here for five years and in that time I've seen two houses sold, both quite big and posh. Brits bought one, Arabs the other. Both on huge corner plots, the Brit one taking up almost a whole street.
But many other properties have been on the market since before we came here. Spanish owners holding out for the 'recovery', I guess.


----------



## zenkarma

Sirtravelot said:


> ...how long do you think one would have to wait to sell the house again? A decade? More?


I'm not sure I full understand the question, could you be a little more specific?

I assume you're referring to Spain as the country and I assume you mean how long would it take to 'get your money back' or 'break even'.

Assume you purchase a property for €100,000. Ignoring running costs as living expenditure (that you'd have to pay wherever you lived) it would cost €15,000 to purchase and about €5,000 to sell (that's 3% non-resident retention for CGT and legal costs). The price of that property would then have to have appreciated by about 20% for you to 'break even'.

I don't think that's likely to happen for at least 5-10 years potentially even longer. It's hard to predict, but an awful lot depends on the success of the Spanish government turning the economy around and the Eurozone itself and there's still no signs of either of them improving in the near future.

Anyone considering purchasing property in Spain at the moment needs to be looking at it as a long term investment.

In my opinion.


----------



## baldilocks

zenkarma said:


> I'm not sure I full understand the question, could you be a little more specific?
> 
> I assume you're referring to Spain as the country and I assume you mean how long would it take to 'get your money back' or 'break even'.
> 
> Assume you purchase a property for €100,000. Ignoring running costs as living expenditure (that you'd have to pay wherever you lived) it would cost €15,000 to purchase and about €5,000 to sell (that's 3% non-resident retention for CGT and legal costs). The price of that property would then have to have appreciated by about 20% for you to 'break even'.
> 
> I don't think that's likely to happen for at least 5-10 years potentially even longer. It's hard to predict, but an awful lot depends on the success of the Spanish government turning the economy around and the Eurozone itself and there's still no signs of either of them improving in the near future.
> 
> Anyone considering purchasing property in Spain at the moment needs to be looking at it as a long term investment.
> 
> In my opinion.


Hold on.

You are all omitting one important factor:

If you are going to be living in Spain anyway, if you don't buy - you rent. Assume the rent will be fairly low, say €500 p.m. that will be €6,000 p.a. and in 10 years that will be (assuming no variation, up or down, in the rent) €60,000. Plus whatever other costs are included in the agreement.

Now factor that into your equations.


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> Hold on.
> 
> You are all omitting one important factor:
> 
> If you are going to be living in Spain anyway, if you don't buy - you rent. Assume the rent will be fairly low, say €500 p.m. that will be €6,000 p.a. and in 10 years that will be (assuming no variation, up or down, in the rent) €60,000. Plus whatever other costs are included in the agreement.
> 
> Now factor that into your equations.


There's a lot to factor in. A €100k house would probably cost less than €500/month to rent, and if you bought it with a €100k mortgage you'd still be paying a few hundred a month. If you bought cash then there's the loss of interest (which is admittedly low right now) it would otherwise be earning, along with the opportunity cost of having a lot of cash tied up in an illiquid asset.

Personally if I were planning on living in Spain for 10 years and I saw a bargain that I liked then I'd buy it. However with the market so slow it takes about a year to do all the research required to establish whether something really is a bargain! And you have to be sure you want to live there for 10 years.


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> There's a lot to factor in. A €100k house would probably cost less than €500/month to rent, and if you bought it with a €100k mortgage you'd still be paying a few hundred a month. If you bought cash then there's the loss of interest (which is admittedly low right now) it would otherwise be earning, along with the opportunity cost of having a lot of cash tied up in an illiquid asset.
> 
> Personally if I were planning on living in Spain for 10 years and I saw a bargain that I liked then I'd buy it. However with the market so slow it takes about a year to do all the research required to establish whether something really is a bargain! And you have to be sure you want to live there for 10 years.


or the rest of your life!

We bought because it was the right thing for us to do. We paid 85k in 2007. The house has 5 beds, 2 bath, in good condition for a 1962 rebuild with block and beam. We are slowly getting things done the way we want them to be. We are currently having it re-roofed and a solar hot water panel installed while they are up there. We have made a few internal changes/updates (replumbed, rewired, etc) and have spent about 10-12k. The house is probably still worth 85k, maybe more but we aren't bothered since we won't be selling and are here for good.


----------



## crookesey

The €100,000 euros could make circa 2% net p/a in interest, if you rent you wouldn't have paid €15,000 in buying costs plus the cost of furniture, tenants don't pay for major repairs and when you want to walk away you don't have to pay €5,000 in selling costs, plus you still have your capital.


----------



## Chopera

baldilocks said:


> or the rest of your life!
> 
> We bought because it was the right thing for us to do. We paid 85k in 2007. The house has 5 beds, 2 bath, in good condition for a 1962 rebuild with block and beam. We are slowly getting things done the way we want them to be. We are currently having it re-roofed and a solar hot water panel installed while they are up there. We have made a few internal changes/updates (replumbed, rewired, etc) and have spent about 10-12k. The house is probably still worth 85k, maybe more but we aren't bothered since we won't be selling and are here for good.


Yes under those circumstances it is not such a big deal when you buy. It's just that many people who plan on moving to Spain assume they will buy without realising the high costs involved, especially if they get the decision wrong and want to sell within a couple of years.


----------



## baldilocks

Chopera said:


> Yes under those circumstances it is not such a big deal when you buy. It's just that many people who plan on moving to Spain assume they will buy without realising the high costs involved, especially if they get the decision wrong and want to sell within a couple of years.


Which comes back to doing *your own *research (only *you* know what *you* want) and doing it thoroughly so that the decision is right for *you*.


----------



## zenkarma

baldilocks said:


> You are all omitting one important factor:


Baldilocks, I'm not omitting anything. 

I simply answered the question that was asked and even to do that I had to make a number of assumptions. The question wasn't 'is it better to buy or rent' it was 'how long will it take to sell again' which I assumed to mean how long would it take to get my money back on a property purchase. It could well have meant something else altogether.


----------



## crookesey

zenkarma said:


> Baldilocks, I'm not omitting anything.
> 
> I simply answered the question that was asked and even to do that I had to make a number of assumptions. The question wasn't 'is it better to buy or rent' it was 'how long will it take to sell again' which I assumed to mean how long would it take to get my money back on a property purchase. It could well have meant something else altogether.


If a thread title said 'Send reinforcements we're going to advance', someone would read it as saying 'Send three and fourpence we're going to a dance'.

Such is life.


----------



## mrypg9

Perhaps the chief factor involved in the choice of renting or buying is that the decision will depend on the individual's preference. Financial factors are not always paramount in people's choices. AS Baldy says: Horses for Courses.
That was certainly so in our case. Having sold all our properties in the UK and elsewhere we could have bought the property of our choice in Prague or here in Spain but we chose to invest the cash. We currently get a return of 4.5%, not a massive yield but good in the current circumstances and enough to offset the rent we pay.
Yes, we've paid sufficient rent over the eight years since leaving the UK to buy a couple of pisos at least. But we have enjoyed something money can't buy which in our case is the freedom from worrying about dodgy tenants, taxes, property repairs and market value fluctuations and freedom to move on when this house is too big for our needs.
Now those factors weighed with us, plus the important one of having high-earning offspring with property of their own in Spain and elsewhere so inheritance isn't an issue.
But others may not share those views and concerns. So they buy.

I think we make a big mistake in rendering all financial transactions down to cost/money factors. We make many financial transactions for other motives, ethical or political being the most important. Choosing to buy FairTrade products, avoiding products tested on animals, boycotting goods from countries whose policies we find disagreeable, such as the vodka boycott over Russia's homophobic laws...OK, maybe they don't involve large sums of cash akin to those involved in house purchase but they make my point.
Although there is a lovely finca next to the village sewerage works and a goat farm. It has been on the market for years at a low sale price. Other factors than price at work there, methinks..


----------



## ashantidance

I have been viewing properties lately just outside Barcelona and what I have realised is that owners are holding onto their properties as they believe the crisis will be over in three years. They are absolutely reluctant to lower the asking price of their properties and in fact after viewing one such property we were told by the estate agent that the owner would not lower the price without even consulting him. My guess was that he was worried about the commission he would receive. Furthermore this house was very old and needed complete reformation. 

I do feel for some property owners as there are some who couldn't possibly reduce the price because of the price they paid originally. There are however people who have inherited properties which they are not resident in and just refuse to budge on the price, despite having to maintain the costs of holding onto it and of course inheritance tax.


----------



## Aron

ashantidance said:


> I have been viewing properties lately just outside Barcelona and what I have realised is that owners are holding onto their properties as they believe the crisis will be over in three years. They are absolutely reluctant to lower the asking price of their properties and in fact after viewing one such property we were told by the estate agent that the owner would not lower the price without even consulting him. My guess was that he was worried about the commission he would receive. Furthermore this house was very old and needed complete reformation.
> 
> I do feel for some property owners as there are some who couldn't possibly reduce the price because of the price they paid originally. There are however people who have inherited properties which they are not resident in and just refuse to budge on the price, despite having to maintain the costs of holding onto it and of course inheritance tax.


Well, there are places along the coast where properties are cheap, but they are nowhere near Barcelona. I do know a marina where there are new 2bedroom apartments for sale at just €39,000.

Anyone who thinks this crisis will be over in three years, they live in cloud cuckoo land. This crisis will not be over in 10 years time. I do hope I'm wrong, but as I speak, there is no light at the end of the tunnel!


----------



## Barriej

Aron said:


> Well, there are places along the coast where properties are cheap, but they are nowhere near Barcelona. I do know a marina where there are new 2bedroom apartments for sale at just €39,000.
> 
> Anyone who thinks this crisis will be over in three years, they live in cloud cuckoo land. This crisis will not be over in 10 years time. I do hope I'm wrong, but as I speak, there is no light at the end of the tunnel!


You are right of course BUT unless you have a nice big government or final salary pension, no-where is going to be good to live. You have to decide when and if the time is right for you. 
The UK aint that great at the moment, and neither is most of Europe. Prices are going up all the time. Im stuck in the UK till for me the balance tips, at the moment the bungalow we live in is worth what we paid for it 7 years ago.

Those of you stuck in Spain just have to get on with it, you made the choice, just the same as I will one day. I bet everyone of you has a better quality of life there than you did before?

We spent a couple of days with a Spanish agent last time we were over, he was saying that he felt Spain would never recover.

However he stated quite clearly that this might not be all bad "no-body wants a return to the silly days, land and house prices rising every day" he went on to tell us of a nice villa that was on the market in the silly days, the owners phoned him every other day telling him to add a couple of thousand to the asking price.

We went to look at this villa, its now a ruin, the English owners had go back as they could not afford the lifestyle they had built. Was it greedy? Maybe, they had quite a few offers but refused them all. 

Weve looked at many places during our visits, over the last couple of years the prices have dropped, thats a good thing for me. Although some are still far too high in my opinion. Some of the Bank repossessions are interesting although you have to do your homework and read the contracts three or four times.

Im not looking to make any money, just somewhere to live, work if I want to and to leave it to the kids when we are gone. For us it will be a complete lifestyle change, whatever we decide we know we wont have pots of Euros to throw around, but the same will be true if we stay in the UK.


----------



## crookesey

With me knowing a fair bit about pensions, and both of us being in the private sector, we only funded to top up our expected state pensions to around our joint tax-free allowances, the big lumps of investment are in cash, UK equities, ISAS and UK property.

Had we had massive inflation linked public sector pensions we might just have bought something, however when you see your investments as being within reach, you think twice about property purchase, well we did anyway.


----------



## mrypg9

Barriej said:


> You are right of course BUT unless you have a nice big government or final salary pension, no-where is going to be good to live. You have to decide when and if the time is right for you.
> The UK aint that great at the moment, and neither is most of Europe. Prices are going up all the time. Im stuck in the UK till for me the balance tips, at the moment the bungalow we live in is worth what we paid for it 7 years ago.
> 
> Those of you stuck in Spain just have to get on with it, you made the choice, just the same as I will one day. I bet everyone of you has a better quality of life there than you did before?
> 
> We spent a couple of days with a Spanish agent last time we were over, he was saying that he felt Spain would never recover.
> 
> However he stated quite clearly that this might not be all bad "no-body wants a return to the silly days, land and house prices rising every day" he went on to tell us of a nice villa that was on the market in the silly days, the owners phoned him every other day telling him to add a couple of thousand to the asking price.
> 
> We went to look at this villa, its now a ruin, the English owners had go back as they could not afford the lifestyle they had built. Was it greedy? Maybe, they had quite a few offers but refused them all.
> 
> Weve looked at many places during our visits, over the last couple of years the prices have dropped, thats a good thing for me. Although some are still far too high in my opinion. Some of the Bank repossessions are interesting although you have to do your homework and read the contracts three or four times.
> 
> Im not looking to make any money, just somewhere to live, work if I want to and to leave it to the kids when we are gone. For us it will be a complete lifestyle change, whatever we decide we know we wont have pots of Euros to throw around, but the same will be true if we stay in the UK.


Interesting and sensible post. You seem to have a sane and balanced view.
If you read my post of two or three posts back you'll see we decided to rent and not buy. We had properties in the UK and abroad we rented out plus sizeable commercial property but were lucky in that we sold before the crisis really hit hard, in 2006 and 2007. 

There are a lot of people stuck here with unsaleable properties and yes, in some cases they overstretched themselves. It was said that all that was needed for house purchase was a pulse and a passport. I've even heard of people placing a deposit with a credit card. Butt many are just victims of bad luck or poor planning.

From what I've seen whilst travelling about the most difficult property to sell is the two-bed/bath piso on an urb. Some are now going at very low prices even in this area and if you like that kind of lifestyle there are bargains to be snapped up. Equally there are bargains at the top end with savings of over a million euros if you can spare five million plus for a luxury villa.

In this area, not far from Marbella, Russian buyers are having a big impact. Most Brits in Spain aren't wealthy, certainly not many HNWIs and few in the Russian super-league. But overall, the market is static.

I don't know how the UK will ever rid itself of its obsession with property 'owning' which of course for anyone with a mortgage isn't owning, it's hire purchase until the last payment is made. To stoke up the UK market with an artificially-induced housing bubble is, as wise posters have pointed out, sheer folly and bound to lead to the inevitable crash...but after the election, of course.

The length of this thread is testimony to our obsession! I've posted many times myself although I'm a happy owner of no property other than furniture, china, clothes, books, CDs.. If people were more interested in investing in other more productive assets, like the Companies we work for, we might have a sounder economy and a more stable housing market.

But one thing is for sure: you will have a different quality of life here, a very enjoyable one. I wouldn't say our quality of life is better here as we had a good life in the UK and in Prague where we spent three years, although in many respects quality of life was poorer there. But we had a really nice large villa with covered pool and enjoyed the countryside as well as all the attractions of Prague. We much prefer Andalucia, though.


----------



## maxd

Got a letter from Spain in my letterbox this morning Citibank wanting to know where I am resident because of my Spanish bank account. I think in the next 12 months we are going to see the Spanish governments' true colours when it comes to foreigners assets who are resident in Spain. 

Honestly if I was resident in Spain and had to make the declaration of assets I would have lied. If I bought a villa now it would probably be in a company name.


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## Megsmum

maxd said:


> Got a letter from Spain in my letterbox this morning Citibank wanting to know where I am resident because of my Spanish bank account. I think in the next 12 months we are going to see the Spanish governments' true colours when it comes to foreigners assets who are resident in Spain.
> 
> Honestly if I was resident in Spain and had to make the declaration of assets I would have lied. If I bought a villa now it would probably be in a company name.


Why would you have lied,


----------



## crookesey

maxd said:


> Got a letter from Spain in my letterbox this morning Citibank wanting to know where I am resident because of my Spanish bank account. I think in the next 12 months we are going to see the Spanish governments' true colours when it comes to foreigners assets who are resident in Spain.
> 
> Honestly if I was resident in Spain and had to make the declaration of assets I would have lied. If I bought a villa now it would probably be in a company name.


Just a thought, if you had bought through a UK Ltd Company could you claim back Spanish VAT if you bought a car through the same company?


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Got a letter from Spain in my letterbox this morning Citibank wanting to know where I am resident because of my Spanish bank account. I think in the next 12 months we are going to see the Spanish governments' true colours when it comes to foreigners assets who are resident in Spain.
> 
> Honestly if I was resident in Spain and had to make the declaration of assets I would have lied. If I bought a villa now it would probably be in a company name.


Normal practice. I've had similar letters from banks in Canada and the Czech Republic where I've held accounts. I get very many rather silly letters from HMRC asking questions about income and assets, questions I answer honestly each time. That doesn't stop them asking again or sending me bills alleging I owe back tax, which I don't.
What makes you think the Spanish Government is any different to the Governments of other states where checking up on people's residency and tax status are concerned?
I'd be more concerned about the 'true colours' of the tax cheats who like parasites live off the infrastructure and facilities honest people pay for.
That applies to companies as well as individuals, doesn't it....

People avoid tax in many ways. Many British immigrants in Spain rent out their UK homes but don't declare their income to the tax man. Some cheat the Spanish authorities by not declaring holiday rental income or avoiding Spanish road taxes by driving UK plated cars. Others work on the black.

Yet some people seem to think this kind of fraud is 'OK'. They ignore their own pecadillos. They focus on what they see as swarms of benefit scroungers -usually of dusky hue - living like parasites off the honest taxpayer. 
Yet it never occurs to the tax cheats to wonder who pays for the roads they drive on, the emergency services that come to their aid in flood, fire and accident, the schools they send their children to...the list is endless.


----------



## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> People avoid tax in many ways...
> Yet some people seem to think this kind of fraud is 'OK'...


I avoid paying tax as much as I possibly can. Why? Because I feel I pay too much in tax and because I resent paying it to a government that fritters and wastes what I do pay them. I simply don't agree with them wasting taxpayers money in the way that they do and there's not one single iota I can do about it. Have you noticed how they're limbering up to get involved in another military conflict in Egypt? More money (they don't have) they will expect to extort from the already over-taxed population. This and previous governments consistently screws up the economy on their daft policies that are nearly always wrong and expect taxpayers to fund their lunacy.

I rented a flat out in the UK many years ago and didn't declare or pay them a penny in tax. Unfortunately for them too long ago for them to be able to claim the back tax. I don't feel guilty about it at all in fact I'm pleased I was able to get one over them and claw back some of this tax money I pay them.

You talk about this being fraud? You want to know what fraud is? 

Fraud is keeping interest rates down so low for so long (when they know damned well they have to rise) and crucifying anyone with any savings in the bank. Those savings are being eroded year on year by high inflation. An inflation percentage I might add that is far higher their paltry manipulated CPI/RPI figure they constantly keep changing so it stays low. They're sticking their hands into peoples bank accounts and pulling out fistfuls of money every single year interest rates stay at their historic low. 

That's fraud! 

So is introducing a scheme to underwrite mortgage loans to not only falsely inflate the housing market, so people feel better about the value of their house, but also allow yet more people to take out mortgage loans they cant afford. All done using taxpayers money. If that isn't bad enough, that scheme has further pushed down the interest rates that people can get on their savings because banks and building society's now don't need to attract savers' money because the government via the BoE is underwriting the loans.

That's fraud! 

And you wonder why people resent paying this fraudulent, despotic government any taxes.


----------



## crookesey

I find the definitions of wrong doing quite amusing, the self appointed great and good can do no wrong, irrespective of their actions, whilst the conversely honest realists take their chances and keep their fingers crossed, much to the disgust of the former. 

I recall this:-

A guy buys a nice looking girl a drink and says to her, "If I give you $5,000 will you let me make love to you?", "Sure will", says the girl. He then says "If I give you $5.00 will you still let me make love to you?" "What type of girl do you take me for?", she replies. The guy bursts out laughing and says, "We've already sorted that out honey, we're just haggling over the price".


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> I find the definitions of wrong doing quite amusing, the self appointed great and good can do no wrong, irrespective of their actions, whilst the conversely honest realists take their chances and keep their fingers crossed, much to the disgust of the former.
> 
> I recall this:-
> 
> A guy buys a nice looking girl a drink and says to her, "If I give you $5,000 will you let me make love to you?", "Sure will", says the girl. He then says "If I give you $5.00 will you still let me make love to you?" "What type of girl do you take me for?", she replies. The guy bursts out laughing and says, "We've already sorted that out honey, we're just haggling over the price".


How does that fit in with tax evasion?

That anecdote, oft repeated, merely points out that some people have few if any morals. I seem to have read that it was in fact attributed to GB Shaw who was making a point about women but I may be wrong.
Are you saying you think tax evasion justifiable considering your views on benefits you would be strongly opposed.


----------



## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> I avoid paying tax as much as I possibly can. Why? Because I feel I pay too much in tax and because I resent paying it to a government that fritters and wastes what I do pay them. I simply don't agree with them wasting taxpayers money in the way that they do and there's not one single iota I can do about it. Have you noticed how they're limbering up to get involved in another military conflict in Egypt? More money (they don't have) they will expect to extort from the already over-taxed population. This and previous governments consistently screws up the economy on their daft policies that are nearly always wrong and expect taxpayers to fund their lunacy.
> 
> I rented a flat out in the UK many years ago and didn't declare or pay them a penny in tax. Unfortunately for them too long ago for them to be able to claim the back tax. I don't feel guilty about it at all in fact I'm pleased I was able to get one over them and claw back some of this tax money I pay them.
> 
> You talk about this being fraud? You want to know what fraud is?
> 
> Fraud is keeping interest rates down so low for so long (when they know damned well they have to rise) and crucifying anyone with any savings in the bank. Those savings are being eroded year on year by high inflation. An inflation percentage I might add that is far higher their paltry manipulated CPI/RPI figure they constantly keep changing so it stays low. They're sticking their hands into peoples bank accounts and pulling out fistfuls of money every single year interest rates stay at their historic low.
> 
> That's fraud!
> 
> So is introducing a scheme to underwrite mortgage loans to not only falsely inflate the housing market, so people feel better about the value of their house, but also allow yet more people to take out mortgage loans they cant afford. All done using taxpayers money. If that isn't bad enough, that scheme has further pushed down the interest rates that people can get on their savings because banks and building society's now don't need to attract savers' money because the government via the BoE is underwriting the loans.
> 
> That's fraud!
> 
> And you wonder why people resent paying this fraudulent, despotic government any taxes.


I should have said tax avoidance, not tax evasion which is of course a crime. Tax avoidance is quite legal, although the UK PM thinks it immoral.

You forget one point in your justified rant against the government, namely that it was elected. So scarcely 'despotic'. Your definition of fraud strays wildly from the normal legal usage.

What you are saying is that you disapprove of the government's policies. So do I. But whichever government you choose will impose taxes which we are all required to pay.


----------



## mrypg9

mrypg9 said:


> How does that fit in with tax evasion?
> 
> That anecdote, oft repeated, merely points out that some people have few if any morals. I seem to have read that it was in fact attributed to GB Shaw who was making a point about women but I may be wrong.
> Are you saying you think tax evasion justifiable considering your views on benefits you would be strongly opposed.


And I'm sure a former financial advisor would never condone any dodgy dealings. Surely honesty in advising clients is essential and although tax avoidance may be legitimately recommended, tax evasion is a crime, not 'realism' and would never be recommended.


----------



## crookesey

Where did I condone anything guys? All I implied is that there appears to be a two tier system on this forum, where morals are concerned.


----------



## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> I should have said tax avoidance, not tax evasion which is of course a crime. Tax avoidance is quite legal, although the UK PM thinks it immoral.
> 
> You forget one point in your justified rant against the government, namely that it was elected. So scarcely 'despotic'. Your definition of fraud strays wildly from the normal legal usage.
> 
> What you are saying is that you disapprove of the government's policies. So do I. But whichever government you choose will impose taxes which we are all required to pay.


What zenkarma was talking about was tax evasion though, which is fraud. Tax avoidance is (the entirely legal) practice of reducing you tax bill by exploiting loopholes in the system. Tax evasion is simply not declaring taxable income.

I think people generally accept paying a certain amount of income tax if they see where the money goes, and feel like they are getting a service in return. Above that limit people only accept paying tax because the government threatens them, ultimately with jail.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Where did I condone anything guys? All I implied is that there appears to be a two tier system on this forum, where morals are concerned.


Well, it was admittedly difficult to ascertain exactly what point you were trying to make..

You GBS anecdote actually served to point out that people can be bought. Generally speaking, I think that's true. We all have our price and it isn't necessarily in money terms. But as I said, that anecdote has nothing to say about the crime of tax evasion.

Now I'm not sure what you mean by a 'two-tier' system on this Forum. Could you explain what you mean, especially as you refer to people's 'morals.

No 'two tier' for me. I pay what I have to, Simples. Not happily or willingly but I pay, like 99.9% of the posters on this Forum. 

The only time I have refused to pay a tax was Thatcher's Poll Tax. I thought it was wrong, accepted I would be breaking the law by not paying and was prepared for the punishment I got. Like tens of thousands of others and the tax was eventually scrapped. 

Now..what's this 'two tier system', then


----------



## mrypg9

Chopera said:


> What zenkarma was talking about was tax evasion though, which is fraud. Tax avoidance is (the entirely legal) practice of reducing you tax bill by exploiting loopholes in the system. Tax evasion is simply not declaring taxable income.
> 
> I think people generally accept paying a certain amount of income tax if they see where the money goes, and feel like they are getting a service in return. Above that limit people only accept paying tax because the government threatens them, ultimately with jail.


I agree. As businesspeople and as professionals we paid our taxes. What we didn't have to pay we didn't...within the law.

The list I made in my post contained paying Spanish road tax, paying tax received in Spain from holiday lets and working on the black. For the UK I cited not paying tax on unearned income.

Now not paying tax on these is evasion, not avoidance and is a crime. Who would think that evading these taxes is morally acceptable??
People who commit such crimes or condone them are equal to benefit cheats.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.


----------



## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> Who would think that evading these taxes is morally acceptable??


Me. I resent paying them for all the reasons I've already stated. If this government wants taxpayers to be morally acceptable, perhaps they should start being morally acceptable themselves?

I think I must be a very morally unacceptable person!


----------



## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> Me. I resent paying them for all the reasons I've already stated. If this government wants taxpayers to be morally acceptable, perhaps they should start being morally acceptable themselves?
> 
> I think I must be a very morally unacceptable person!


No, I'm sure you're not There are worse crimes imo than tax evasion but it's still a crime, whatever our opinion.

I cannot remember the last time there was a Government 'morally acceptable' to all the population. Was there ever such?? I find Attlee's 1945 Government very moral...millions would and did disagree. Don't forget the still substantial Thatcher Fanclub.
And remember, this Government must be morally acceptable to those who voted for them. 

Now I found Mrs. T's Government, and Tony Blair's, very 'morally unacceptable'...that is by MY standards. But unless we adopt the theory and practice of anarchy, we obey laws and try to get them changed of we find them unacceptable. I paid my taxes to Mrs T. for her subsidies to the ultra-wealthy just as I paid them for Blair's very immoral Iraq war.

The way things are going no doubt I'll be paying them to Cameron and Clegg for military interventionin Syria.


----------



## crookesey

I often found that folk who always professed to be 100% honest were as bent as a butchers hook. Ever since I mentioned that I was a retired IFA I have been deluged with a plethora of insults and abuse, and this is from UK expats in Spain who were generally assumed to be be a bent bunch themselves, however I'm sure that things have improved a bit since EU membership.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> I often found that folk who always professed to be 100% honest were as bent as a butchers hook. Ever since I mentioned that I was a retired IFA I have been deluged with a plethora of insults and abuse, and this is from UK expats in Spain who were generally assumed to be be a bent bunch themselves, however I'm sure that things have improved a bit since EU membership.


It's a very silly person who professes to be 100%. honest and I would like you automatically suspect someone who proclaimed that as a virtue. 

Are expats in Spain assumed to be a 'bent bunch'? I suppose it depends on where you live and the company you keep. Yes, there are some low-lifes here but the UK Police are gradually catching up with them.

I think it's very OTT to say you've been 'deluged with a plethora of insults and abuse'...interesting mixed metaphor there , btw. I think that like bankers honest IFAs have had some very dodgy characters associated with them and sadly many people fail to separate the two.

If anyone imputed you personally you should have reported them. I would have done. People can say what they like about me but I don't like my integrity impugned.


----------



## crookesey

I did report the insults and abuse, initially one insulting and abusive post stayed whilst my rebuke was multi edited, to be fair someone grew a brain cell and eventually nuked the insulting and abusive post along with what was left of my post.

I have never insulted or abused anyone, but baldilocks is screaming for me to be banned, his post is still there for all to see, and contrary mary is not without sin, nether was strav. I'm no mardy bum but enough is enough, I think that you're a load of keyboard warriors, if you've decided that you don't like me why not just leave me alone?


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## xabiaxica

:focus:

please


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> I did report the insults and abuse, initially one insulting and abusive post stayed whilst my rebuke was multi edited, to be fair someone grew a brain cell and eventually nuked the insulting and abusive post along with what was left of my post.
> 
> I have never insulted or abused anyone, but baldilocks is screaming for me to be banned, his post is still there for all to see, and contrary mary is not without sin, nether was strav. I'm no mardy bum but enough is enough, I think that you're a load of keyboard warriors, if you've decided that you don't like me why not just leave me alone?


I think you should get a sense of proportion. This is an internet Forum, not a boxing ring.
You post, sometimes controversially,and people disagree with you.
You know, you have yourself been very personally abusive, privately and publicly. Baldy's post was directed at what you wrote, not at you and was not personally abusive. Strav, like Xavia, JoJo and the other Moderators do an excellent job of keeping order, just the right balance. I think they are 'without sin'.
There is a difference, an important one. Disagree with *posts* but don't abuse *people*. Calling people a 'bunch of keyboard warriors' is abusive...and rather childish, no?

People disagree on Forums like this. They would be boring if they were bland. This is the best Forum because of the wide range of personalities and opinions. Mine very often get challenged and I'm glad that happens. I don't expect people to agree with me all the time. In fact, I don't want them to. We learn by being challenged. I've changed my views on a few things because of this Forum.

I'm not sure where I have claimed to be' without sin'. I'm known here as ADANA Mary,not Mary Mother of God, just Mary mother of Robert. You can say what you like about my posts,in my time I've been insulted by some quite well-known people. I'm still standing and so are you.


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I think you should get a sense of proportion. This is an internet Forum, not a boxing ring.
> You post, sometimes controversially,and people disagree with you.
> You know, you have yourself been very personally abusive, privately and publicly. Baldy's post was directed at what you wrote, not at you and was not personally abusive. Strav, like Xavia, JoJo and the other Moderators do an excellent job of keeping order, just the right balance. I think they are 'without sin'.
> There is a difference, an important one. Disagree with *posts* but don't abuse *people*. Calling people a 'bunch of keyboard warriors' is abusive...and rather childish, no?
> 
> People disagree on Forums like this. They would be boring if they were bland. This is the best Forum because of the wide range of personalities and opinions. Mine very often get challenged and I'm glad that happens. I don't expect people to agree with me all the time. In fact, I don't want them to. We learn by being challenged. I've changed my views on a few things because of this Forum.
> 
> I'm not sure where I have claimed to be' without sin'. I'm known here as ADANA Mary,not Mary Mother of God, just Mary mother of Robert. You can say what you like about my posts,in my time I've been insulted by some quite well-known people. I'm still standing and so are you.



ahem..........


:focus:


----------



## crookesey

mrypg9 said:


> I think you should get a sense of proportion. This is an internet Forum, not a boxing ring.
> You post, sometimes controversially,and people disagree with you.
> You know, you have yourself been very personally abusive, privately and publicly. Baldy's post was directed at what you wrote, not at you and was not personally abusive. Strav, like Xavia, JoJo and the other Moderators do an excellent job of keeping order, just the right balance. I think they are 'without sin'.
> There is a difference, an important one. Disagree with *posts* but don't abuse *people*. Calling people a 'bunch of keyboard warriors' is abusive...and rather childish, no?
> 
> People disagree on Forums like this. They would be boring if they were bland. This is the best Forum because of the wide range of personalities and opinions. Mine very often get challenged and I'm glad that happens. I don't expect people to agree with me all the time. In fact, I don't want them to. We learn by being challenged. I've changed my views on a few things because of this Forum.
> 
> I'm not sure where I have claimed to be' without sin'. I'm known here as ADANA Mary,not Mary Mother of God, just Mary mother of Robert. You can say what you like about my posts,in my time I've been insulted by some quite well-known people. I'm still standing and so are you.


So baldy has the right to publicly request that I am banned has he? Keyboard Warriors is abusive, no it isn't, oh I can't be bothered with you anymore, back on ignore you go.


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> ahem..........
> 
> 
> :focus:


Will do. I'm waiting for Zen to come back to my post.

Why do my emoticons keep changing and disappearing


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Will do. I'm waiting for Zen to come back to my post.
> 
> Why do my emoticons keep changing and disappearing


actually if you click 'more' ............ we have a lot more than we used to :cheer2:


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> actually if you click 'more' ............ we have a lot more than we used to :cheer2:


Oh yes...seen them!

P.S. Do we have an 'Ignore' facility? If not, maybe we should have..


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes...seen them!
> 
> P.S. Do we have an 'Ignore' facility? If not, maybe we should have..


yes we do 



in USERCP - link at the top of the page


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## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> Will do. I'm waiting for Zen to come back to my post.


I thought we already agreed that I was morally unacceptable? 

As regards to whether we've ever had any morally acceptable governments, then as you know my opinions on the necessary democratic electoral reform that needs to take place, we won't ever have one until that happens. Until that happens (which I doubt will ever be in my lifetime) I have to continue to accept the wishes of the majority in an electoral system I don't agree with.

The only real option for me, is to do my protesting with my feet and leave the UK. Which is precisely what I am planning on doing. It won't be to Spain though because that's tantamount to leaving the frying pan and ending up in the fire.

I'm currently looking quite closely at The Netherlands who in my opinion are far more socially aware (they actually care about their citizens) than the UK is. It's no coincidence either that their electoral system is based on Proportional Representation.


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> I thought we already agreed that I was morally unacceptable?
> 
> As regards to whether we've ever had any morally acceptable governments, then as you know my opinions on the necessary democratic electoral reform that needs to take place, we won't ever have one until that happens. Until that happens (which I doubt will ever be in my lifetime) I have to continue to accept the wishes of the majority in an electoral system I don't agree with.
> 
> The only real option for me, is to do my protesting with my feet and leave the UK. Which is precisely what I am planning on doing. It won't be to Spain though because that's tantamount to leaving the frying pan and ending up in the fire.
> 
> I'm currently looking quite closely at The Netherlands who in my opinion are far more socially aware (they actually care about their citizens) than the UK is. It's no coincidence either that their electoral system is based on Proportional Representation.


I never said you were morally unacceptable!! Quite the contrary...read my post again.

We thought of living in Amsterdam...problem was that the area we really liked was Oud Zuid, near the Vondelpark...much too expensive for us...
The Netherlands would certainly be an interesting country to live in. Culturally and politically, a lot happening there. Schipol is a great hub too and you're a very short flight from the UK. We used to go over on the KLM CityHopper...no sooner were you in the air than you were down again, in Norwich at least.
We also thought of Canada, I've got family there and we even bought a place. But -and no offence to Canadians who are lovely people - we decided it would be like watching paint dry, at least where we would have settled.

I'm guessing you're young and still working..


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## Megsmum

So

Are spanish house prices built on sand:gossip::gossip::smash::smash:


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## mrypg9

cambio said:


> So
> 
> Are spanish house prices built on sand:gossip::gossip::smash::smash:


No, mine's built on rock..or so it seems when I'm digging in the garden


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## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> We thought of living in Amsterdam...problem was that the area we really liked was Oud Zuid, near the Vondelpark...much too expensive for us...


I'm looking at Amsterdam and It is pretty expensive there particularly if you're renting, it's not a place to rent really. Dutch Property has come down a lot from its peak and property there is now more affordable, whereas before it wasn't. Even still weak sterling against the euro pushes the prices back up.

In my opinion property in Amsterdam may well be a better long term investment than property in the UK or Spain.

The idea is to split the time between the Spanish apartment, the Amsterdam apartment and a couple of months a year in the UK. Staying out of both long enough to not become a fiscal resident.



mrypg9 said:


> I'm guessing you're young and still working..


I'm actually old, cynical and semi-retired. I'm just waiting for my main pension to come so I can retire completely.


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> I'm looking at Amsterdam and It is pretty expensive there particularly if you're renting, it's not a place to rent really. Dutch Property has come down a lot from its peak and property there is now more affordable, whereas before it wasn't. Even still weak sterling against the euro pushes the prices back up.
> 
> In my opinion property in Amsterdam may well be a better long term investment than property in the UK or Spain.
> 
> The idea is to split the time between the Spanish apartment, the Amsterdam apartment and a couple of months a year in the UK. Staying out of both long enough to not become a fiscal resident.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually old, cynical and semi-retired. I'm just waiting for my main pension to come so I can retire completely.


Sounds idyllic, living between those places. But wouldn't the cost of unavoidable property taxes in all three places plus travelling costs add up to a good slice of the tax you'd be paying as a retired person?
And as you approve of the Dutch method of voting for Governments, woudn't you be content to pay taxes there?

The places we looked at in Oud Zuid were eye-wateringly expensive. But it was a lovely area. We used to stay at the American Hotel, five minutes from the Vondelpark, right on Leidseplein.

So we chose Prague as it was a cheaper option and soon found out why...

On our morning walk to the village here this morning I saw more 'Se Vende' signs than people. A house one down the road from us has been empty for years. It was squatted earlier this year and, oddly, the squatters were removed by the police, National Police too. Now the owner has installed a caretaker who lives rent-free, just pays water and electricity bills.


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## maxd

Mary is always going to stick up for the administration because she is on a mega final salary pension, so you will say A and she will say B. Turkeys will never vote for Xmas.

It is your duty to your family to legally minimize taxes as far as possible as far as I am concerned. 

The politicians are only worried about getting in office for the next term. Martin Armstrong who advises American politicians on their retirement funds ( 401K) says the only time he hears from them is when the stock market is crashing. He says first hand they they are basically lawyers who fumble from one crisis to the next lining their pockets on the way and pocketing huge final salary pensions at the expense of the nation.

In his opinion they are clueless, nothing is really pre-meditated they are just a bunch of numbskulls who have a narrow vision of their own preservation rather than doing what is right.


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## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> Sounds idyllic, living between those places. But wouldn't the cost of unavoidable property taxes in all three places plus travelling costs add up to a good slice of the tax you'd be paying as a retired person?


The UK property would be rented most of the time and visits back to the UK would be to deal with issues with the rented property and/or spend time with friends or family.

The problem with Dutch taxation is two-fold. Firstly it's pretty high, it needs to be to pay for their social policies and secondly it's calculated differently. 

As a resident taxpayer in the Netherlands you pay taxes on your worldwide earned income and imputed earnings on assets and savings. It's the second one that's the biggest problem. Instead of paying tax on the income from the assets, such as rent for example as in the UK, you pay a tax on the imputed earnings of the asset value. Owning three properties, would see all three of them being taxed on imputed earnings as well savings held in bank accounts.

As a non-resident tax payer in The Netherlands you only get taxed on your income from The Netherlands and that would be the same imputed tax, but only on the Netherlands property. Given the UK personal taxation allowance and only paying tax on the rental earnings over that allowance means it's far better to continue to pay taxes in the UK and maintain any savings in a UK bank account.



mrypg9 said:


> And as you approve of the Dutch method of voting for Governments, woudn't you be content to pay taxes there?


I'd be more than happy to pay taxes on the Netherlands property, but I think it's a bit cheeky to start taxing worldwide assets when I'd only be living there less than 6 months of the year?


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Mary is always going to stick up for the administration because she is on a mega final salary pension, so you will say A and she will say B. Turkeys will never vote for Xmas.
> 
> It is your duty to your family to legally minimize taxes as far as possible as far as I am concerned.
> 
> The politicians are only worried about getting in office for the next term. Martin Armstrong who advises American politicians on their retirement funds ( 401K) says the only time he hears from them is when the stock market is crashing. He says first hand they they are basically lawyers who fumble from one crisis to the next lining their pockets on the way and pocketing huge final salary pensions at the expense of the nation.
> 
> In his opinion they are clueless, nothing is really pre-meditated they are just a bunch of numbskulls who have a narrow vision of their own preservation rather than doing what is right.


What on earth has my 'mega' final salary pension scheme got to do with sticking up for Mods against posters who lack basic Forum manners and decorum? Do they pay my 'mega' pension, which, I might add, is supplemented handsomely by profits from business enterprises which paid all due taxes, treated their staff fairly and contributed to the community. You could perhaps emulate that if of course you don't already. It brings greater profitability to any enterprise..

But shame on you, max. The final resort of those who lack argument is personal abuse. Not something you usually do but maybe it's catching .. Stick to arguing cases...


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> The UK property would be rented most of the time and visits back to the UK would be to deal with issues with the rented property and/or spend time with friends or family.
> 
> The problem with Dutch taxation is two-fold. Firstly it's pretty high, it needs to be to pay for their social policies and secondly it's calculated differently.
> 
> As a resident taxpayer in the Netherlands you pay taxes on your worldwide earned income and imputed earnings on assets and savings. It's the second one that's the biggest problem. Instead of paying tax on the income from the assets, such as rent for example as in the UK, you pay a tax on the imputed earnings of the asset value. Owning three properties, would see all three of them being taxed on imputed earnings as well savings held in bank accounts.
> 
> As a non-resident tax payer in The Netherlands you only get taxed on your income from The Netherlands and that would be the same imputed tax, but only on the Netherlands property. Given the UK personal taxation allowance and only paying tax on the rental earnings over that allowance means it's far better to continue to pay taxes in the UK and maintain any savings in a UK bank account.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be more than happy to pay taxes on the Netherlands property, but I think it's a bit cheeky to start taxing worldwide assets when I'd only be living there less than 6 months of the year?


Yes, it would. The Netherlands is one of those high tax/high wage/high social wage countries, isn't it...like the Scandinavian states.
Your plan seems fair and eminently feasible.


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## Muddy

Sorry if I'm repeating anything already said but I don't visit the site as much as I would like to these days and don't have time to read through all of this huge thread 

I have a few theories about Spanish house prices in answer to the original question!
Nothing inspiring as such, just observation mostly. Feel free to beat me with a stick lol

To start with I always found it strange why the average price in Spain was more than the UK, but that doesn't bother me anymore and it really doesn't matter, that's just the way it is. There are much more expensive property and much cheaper ones when you keep looking around, and there is no such this as an average property anyway.
Buy what you can afford and what makes you happy.
I will be buying to live in full time, so it's not an investment only choice, it's more of a timing choice and weighing that choice against a few factors. Don't wait too long or you'll miss out on what you want possible. Don't buy too soon or you will be in negative equity for longer if that creates a problem for you. Don’t wait too long or you could have even a harder time with more red tape rules and regs!
Don’t gamble with currency, that makes a huge difference, just look at now and this time last year.

The things that make me wonder a bit are (and please correct me if wrong) with Spain's population about 80% of what the UK is, the land mass is almost exactly double of the UK, the population density is just around 2.5 more of what you have in Spain. So in my strait forward way of looking at this why then are the prices not much lower in Spain!

I'm sure an economist could give you a much more detailed and professional idea but here is what I think is making some difference.


The introduction of residency for house purchase I feel has had some influence on this, even the idea of it happening would I think, it's created interest to some degree.
The continues dropping of prices has created interest, prices for some buyers now do seem like a bargain, this did for a while at least fuel buying. This however hasn’t had a big change in pricing, not yet anyway, but it did start the market moving.

With gold being so low and at the moment refusing to increase could this be having a small influence with some investors switching to property at much lower prices!
Investors perhaps now looking at a more shaky stocks due to tensions not too far East of Spain, market might add to the investors coming out of stocks and into property as the prices will look only more attractive for a while yet.


I did read a story a few days ago showing the lending down about 42% for Spain year on year. That’s a national figure, Murcia was almost 49%.
These if correct are the worst figures since 2003. 
So looking at all this why are prices not dropping faster.
I remember looking at prices all the way back to 2004 when I first thought I might like to move to Spain at some point, timing for me wasn’t right, ho hum..
But one thing also I feel which has helped keep prices from dropping faster is the banks. At the beginning of the crash they didn’t want to devalue their stocks. They’ve been more interested in grabbing property back from people struggling to pay than do the unthinkable and devalue their own idle stock.
They were very slow to start this processes and I stopped looking at some bank property as it just wasn’t value for money, the prices were a total joke in some cases.
Being slow and trying to avoid devaluing housing stock I think was an attempt by the banks to avoid bailouts, but has had the effect of not letting the housing market bottom out sooner and go back into a proper recovery possibly. Better for the banks and the government, but not good for someone that needs to sell. Being stuck in limbo is no good for anyone.

Like already said, some sellers are being unrealistic, but that’s up to them for different reasons.
Some are stuck between a rock and a hard place and can’t afford to sell too cheap, and can’t afford to do nothing at the same time!
Some are riding out the storm, after all prices will come back one day, it’s like a wave or a cycle. It will happen but can you wait!
A house in the end is worth what you’re willing to pay for it, if you don’t buy it someone else will sooner or later.

We’ve all set goals and amounts we want to buy and sell at, you just have to trade that off to some extent on what you expect for your money and how long you can wait to achieve it.
If you like it then buy it if you want to buy a home to live in. If you’re looking to invest only then up to you!
I’ve set myself a budget and sticking to it. The pound dropping from last year messed things up for me so I will adjust what I buy unless it recovers a bit, or I might be able to offset things with my house price rising a little in the UK and Spanish prices still dropping for a while yet.

Good luck to buyers and seller alike.


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## jojo

Before anyone posts anything off topic on this thread - think again!!!!!!!! I've made a new thread for government stuff http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/191338-governments.html So please post there cos its fiddly moving posts around!!!!!

Thank you for your cooperation lol

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Before anyone posts anything off topic on this thread - think again!!!!!!!! I've made a new thread for government stuff http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/191338-governments.html So please post there cos its fiddly moving posts around!!!!!
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation lol
> 
> Jo xxx


Any truth in the rumour you've been shortlisted for the job of Speaker of the House of Commons? Or was it UN Secretary General.. Or both??


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Any truth in the rumour you've been shortlisted for the job of Speaker of the House of Commons? Or was it UN Secretary General.. Or both??


LOL - If I had the time!!! I've got three jobs already!!!! The rate I'm going, I'll be able to afford a place in Spain cash!!!!!! (Hows that for keeping us on topic  )

Jo xxxx


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## Madliz

Relating to earlier posts about the possible growing property bubble in the UK, here's an interesting blog in The Economist:

House prices: What goes up did not come down | The Economist

"The number of real estate jobs is now at a record high – 100,000 more than at the peak of the boom in the summer of 2008. The number of construction jobs is more than 300,000 lower than its peak."

I guess rising UK prices makes Spanish property more desirable!


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## crookesey

Madliz said:


> Relating to earlier posts about the possible growing property bubble in the UK, here's an interesting blog in The Economist:
> 
> House prices: What goes up did not come down | The Economist
> 
> "The number of real estate jobs is now at a record high – 100,000 more than at the peak of the boom in the summer of 2008. The number of construction jobs is more than 300,000 lower than its peak."
> 
> I guess rising UK prices makes Spanish property more desirable!


The problem with the Spanish property market is over supply, a two bed apartment for sale in the same block as 10 more has to compete with the others, whereas a unique €2 million beach front villa doesn't have to compete with anything, and soon finds out if it's price is right. 

In the UK it is possible to find out when a property was last sold, and for how much, is there anything similar information wise in Spain?


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## Chopera

Regarding some of Muddy's points, property in Spain is much cheaper than the UK. It's just not so cheap in the areas where there is a high demand from foreigners or Spaniards with money. Also the size of Spain has little to do with the supply/demand dynamics of housing. The are large areas of Spain where few people want to live, and in many of those areas they are giving land away for free. Most demand is around the main cities, and in those areas the councils have traditionally colluded with the banks to drip feed land onto the market, in order to keep prices as high as possible.


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## Chopera

crookesey said:


> The problem with the Spanish property market is over supply, a two bed apartment for sale in the same block as 10 more has to compete with the others, whereas a unique €2 million beach front villa doesn't have to compete with anything, and soon finds out if it's price is right.
> 
> *In the UK it is possible to find out when a property was last sold, and for how much, is there anything similar information wise in Spain?*


Nope. It's the point I've been making for years. How can a seller and a buyer know what the market value of a property is without knowing what similar properties are selling for? They don't so we have the situation where vendors are asking too much and buyers offering too little, and the market remains stuck.


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## Muddy

Chopera said:


> Regarding some of Muddy's points, property in Spain is much cheaper than the UK. It's just not so cheap in the areas where there is a high demand from foreigners or Spaniards with money. Also the size of Spain has little to do with the supply/demand dynamics of housing. The are large areas of Spain where few people want to live, and in many of those areas they are giving land away for free. Most demand is around the main cities, and in those areas the councils have traditionally colluded with the banks to drip feed land onto the market, in order to keep prices as high as possible.


Hi Chopera
Like I said previously there is no such thing as an average house, but yes there are lower and higher prices for sure. But I'm looking inland and there are a good number of properties that are clearly set too high in price and they're not what I would call close to a big city!
That in part at least ties in with what you say about no sold price info out there for people to guide them, and I think also when selling they end up listing with unrealistic prices.
I did read a story a while back about this and people hold out too long and even turn down an offer that was too low for them to take at the time, but in the end they end up knocking the price down even lower as time goes on.
Not sure if that ties into the same problem I've seen with some agents in the UK telling seller they can sell for another 20 or 30k and the seller ends up moving to a new agent with a more realistic price and then sells. I know 2 people this has happened to, one in my road. Some agents just want the business and will bump up the price to get the customer on the books.
Stupid really and perhaps greedy on both counts! But the market is moving faster here now so getting easier these days to get much closer to the asking price.
Not sure the agents in Spain do the same thing, it seems silly to me if they do as in the end they will simply not get the sale. But if the seller hangs in there too long and too high in price they lose even more cash in a dropping market, while the agent wont lose that much on just one sale.

Can you tell me where I can get land almost for free, sounds good to me 
Of course if it's something at the end of a pothole 10km dirt track that floods in winter and you can't build on it them I'm not interested 



> councils have traditionally colluded with the banks to drip feed land onto the market


Would like to do some research on this, do you have some info or links I can go have a read on.
Cheers.


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## Chopera

@Muddy

The free land I saw advertised was in Jaraiz in Extremedura and on another forum somebody mentioned similar projects in Soria. The catch (of course there's one) is that you have to spend 6 months of the year living there - i.e. you have to build a house and live in it. The motivation is to get more people living in more remote areas so they can stimulate the local economy and of course pay more taxes. I think some areas suffer from people traditionally buying up plots of land as a speculative investment, but they don't do anything so the area remains deserted.

Regarding councils colluding with banks, there is plenty of evidence all around me in Madrid for example. Madrid is surrounded by masses of scrubland that is easy to build on and the land should cost next to nothing. However houses have sat there empty with high prices that nobody can afford. The land was sold by the council at inflated prices, and during the boom the banks placed them on the market with 30 or even up to 50 year mortgages, at discounted rates to entice people into buying them. The councils also subsidised the building of many flats using tax payers' money as "pisos de protección". These are meant to be flats for younger people on lower incomes, but really it's yet another scam to keep prices high and young people enslaved by debt. I can provide more details, but don't want to ramble on too much.

Agents in Spain are not so concerned with pricing properties correctly because they spend no money in marketing them. A Spanish agent will typically hold the keys and place an advert on idealista with terrible photos, and that's it. It is completely unregulated. You could become an estate agent tomorrow if you wanted. Many work from home, have no overheads and even less an idea of how a property market works.

Anyway if you see over priced flats then negotiate hard. Don't be afraid of offering 50% of the asking price. I know people who have sold flats recently and in Madrid the market is about 60% down from peak. However many people are asking prices that are only 10% off peak.


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