# Renouncing Citizenship



## JaunMadera

Hi,

Haven't been around much, but Mexico retirement is still in my life plan. I figure with the ample work time I've got left, I'll be more than prepared when the time comes to head south.

I just read this article from Yahoo news and it got me thinking.

All I've read about up to this point is how to establish residency in Mexico. I guess I just assumed I was headed towards the dual residency status. Is that such a thing?

I suppose I should back up - Our plan is to buy a house down there, and maintain a small condo in the states. We would spend nine months in the Puerto Vallarta area and then three months back in Washington state. 

Anyway, I read this article and was wondering... do all (or most) of you end up renouncing your U.S. citizenship? Is that what I (we) will eventually have to do?

thanks

Jaun (aka: Brad)


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## joaquinx

No. If you do become Mexican citizens, you can maintain US citizenship. Of course, you will be subject to US taxation on your taxable income. As of this year, renouncing US citizenship and thus not be taxed, will cost you around 2,400 usd.


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## TundraGreen

JaunMadera said:


> Hi,
> 
> Haven't been around much, but Mexico retirement is still in my life plan. I figure with the ample work time I've got left, I'll be more than prepared when the time comes to head south.
> 
> I just read this article from Yahoo news and it got me thinking.
> 
> All I've read about up to this point is how to establish residency in Mexico. I guess I just assumed I was headed towards the dual residency status. Is that such a thing?
> 
> I suppose I should back up - Our plan is to buy a house down there, and maintain a small condo in the states. We would spend nine months in the Puerto Vallarta area and then three months back in Washington state.
> 
> Anyway, I read this article and was wondering... do all (or most) of you end up renouncing your U.S. citizenship? Is that what I (we) will eventually have to do?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Jaun (aka: Brad)


I believe renouncing one's US citizenship is very rare. I don't know anyone that has done that. You would only do that if you wanted to protest the US government, or wanted to avoid US taxes. If you did renounce your US citizenship and wanted to spend three months a year in the US, you would have to apply for a US visa, presumably after obtaining Mexican citizenship (see below). Applying for a visa as a former US citizen would be interesting. I have no idea how that would be treated.

Before renouncing US citizenship, you would need to establish Mexican citizenship, since otherwise, you would be "stateless" and could not get permission to be in Mexico, or anywhere for that matter. It takes 5 years on a permanent visa before you can apply for Mexican citizenship. Most visitors to Mexico never do but just stay here on one of the various visas or permits. Should one decide to obtain Mexican citizenship, one can retain US citizenship and just have two passports. When in the US you are treated as a US citizen; when in Mexico, as a Mexican citizen. In other countries, I guess you get to choose which passport to use.


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## JaunMadera

thanks. 

I guess i didn't realize I could actually get dual citizenship too.

I'm assuming if you renounce, you also give up your social security. While I'm not 100% dependent on that income, it does figure into my retirement income and I don't want to walk away from it.

I don't think I could renounce. for all I criticize, it is still who I am and I do intend on coming back 

Appreciate the response.


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## Longford

I don't believe in 'double dipping.' We're a citizen of one country, or another. I don't have a problem with someone renouncing their citizenship in a country. I do lack respect for many of the people who 'double dip' in order to take advantage of benefits a second country may offer, while not wanting to give up the rights they have/had in their 'other' country.


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## citlali

Longford...double dipping, how ?? Wether you "believe" in dual citizenship or not is irrelevant, many people have 2 or 3 nationalities by birth or naturalizaion..that is just a fact of life wether you approve of it or not.
On the other hand people who give up their nationality to pay less taxes are less than patriotic to say the least but that is their business.


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## JaunMadera

I've not even considered dual citizenship, only dual residency. From what I've read, I'll have at least four years before I even qualify for permanent residency, so plenty of time to understand the benefit of one over the other.


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## makaloco

If the US considered dual nationals to be "double-dipping", they would make it easier for them to renounce their citizenship, not more difficult.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> On the other hand people who give up their nationality to pay less taxes are less than patriotic to say the least but that is their business.


As I view the matter ... it is my _business_. I have no respect for people who don't consider the matter of loyalty and citizenship as seriously as I do. :clap2:


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## vantexan

Longford said:


> As I view the matter ... it is my _business_. I have no respect for people who don't consider the matter of loyalty and citizenship as seriously as I do. :clap2:


I've had family, friends, and coworkers say choosing to live in an another country is being disloyal to the States. Spending one's savings, pension, and Social Security in another economy. But how far do you take it? Our European ancestors left for the New World in search of a better deal. People leave their home states all the time for employment or a better retirement. One thing that I'm sure bothers some is for many people in the States how well they've done in life is the hallmark they judge themselves and others by. Keeping up with the Joneses. Living better on less overseas isn't playing fair. Ultimately though it's a free country, supposedly, and my version of freedom is having the choice to live off the fruits of my labor where those fruits will sustain me. Not working until I drop to make wealthy men wealthier.


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## cscscs007

When a person pays money into Social Security that person is entitled to get it back no matter where that person resides. I know Mexican citizens who worked hard in the US and moved back to Mexico to retire. They paid into SS, and they are entitled to it.
Those of you on this site who choose to live in Mexico, great. Keep accepting your SS benefits, you worked for that money. It was taken from your paycheck. Enjoy your retirement where you wish. You earned it.


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> I've had family, friends, and coworkers say choosing to live in an another country is being disloyal to the States. Spending one's savings, pension, and Social Security in another economy.


To this point, the discussion has been about renouncing citizenship ... and/or dual citizenship and my comments have been intended for that conversation. You're adding something new. I don't criticize people who choose to move to another country and utilize their financial resources as they see fit (such as bank accounts, Social Security payments, to cite two examples).


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## joaquinx

vantexan said:


> I've had family, friends, and coworkers say choosing to live in an another country is being disloyal to the States. Spending one's savings, pension, and Social Security in another economy.


I've always considered it as a more benevolent form of foreign aid.


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## lagoloo

I have some trouble with the concept of "loyalty"to one country or another. We arrive on a particular spot on Planet Earth through no volition on our part. My ancestors moved to the U.S. because of various factors which negatively impacted their lives. I moved to Mexico for a number of reasons, one of which was that it was increasingly difficult to continue living in a desirable part of the U.S. on a retiree's income.
I think that doing the best one can for oneself and family is far more important than loyalty to one country or another.
That's why people have always crossed borders: to have a better life.

As far as renouncing U.S. citizenship is concerned, there is no advantage in it for me. It works for very wealthy people trying to shield their money from taxes. The U.S. government is making that move much more costly as increasing numbers of people are taking that step.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> As I view the matter ... it is my _business_. I have no respect for people who don't consider the matter of loyalty and citizenship as seriously as I do. :clap2:


I am with Iagaloo on the issue of loyalty.

In my opinion, loyalty to anything, family-city-team-country-religion-race, is part of an us-versus-them mentality. It is a human instinct that may be necessary for survival in some situations, but it is not a positive attribute otherwise and has no place in my life. I prefer to evaluate people and ideas on their own merit without respect for the group with which they are associated.

I didn't like the pep rallies in high school, and I don't subscribe to the "my country, right or wrong" philosophy, nor to the "love it or leave it" school of thought.


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## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> I am with Iagaloo on the issue of loyalty.
> 
> In my opinion, loyalty to anything, family-city-team-country-religion-race, is part of an us-versus-them mentality. It is a human instinct that may be necessary for survival in some situations, but it is not a positive attribute otherwise and has no place in my life. I prefer to evaluate people and ideas on their own merit without respect for the group with which they are associated.
> 
> I didn't like the pep rallies in high school, and I don't subscribe to the "my country, right or wrong" philosophy, nor to the "love it or leave it" school of thought.


How about George Bush´s speach on TV the days after they declared war on Iraqi. "If you are not for us you are against us!" That is a classic IMO.


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## JaunMadera

so, just for my clarity....

If you go through the residency process and then apply for naturalization, and subsequently granted said naturalization, what is the benefit?

I see you can vote, what else is there? Some sort of health care? Does the government really provide such a thing if you haven't paid into the system in any way over the years?


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## Isla Verde

JaunMadera said:


> so, just for my clarity....
> 
> If you go through the residency process and then apply for naturalization, and subsequently granted said naturalization, what is the benefit?
> 
> I see you can vote, what else is there? Some sort of health care? Does the government really provide such a thing if you haven't paid into the system in any way over the years?


One benefit is that you never have to deal with INM again!


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## JaunMadera

I guess I just don't get what "double dipping" means in this context. Longford clearly has an issue with it, but I don't know enough about it to know why it is controversial. I guess if the Mexican government started sending me retirement checks or provided full health care all for nothing, I could see how that would be taking advantage of a situation.


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## Isla Verde

JaunMadera said:


> I guess I just don't get what "double dipping" means in this context. Longford clearly has an issue with it, but I don't know enough about it to know why it is controversial. I guess if the Mexican government started sending me retirement checks or provided full health care all for nothing, I could see how that would be taking advantage of a situation.


I agree with you. Maybe Longford can explain what he means by "double dipping", perhaps getting two scoops of ice cream for the price of one?


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## RVGRINGO

Isla Verde said:


> One benefit is that you never have to deal with INM again!


And that is the major attraction for most folks. Then comes the ability to vote, own land by simple deed near the border or seacoast, etc. All *residents* are equally eligible for most everything else, so those other arguments are moot.


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> I agree with you. Maybe Longford can explain what he means by "double dipping", perhaps getting two scoops of ice cream for the price of one?


Perhaps he's talking about the "senior discounts" that are available to the "retired set." INAPAM, Seguro Social, IMSS, etc. that we all enjoy in addition to our SS checks.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Perhaps he's talking about the "senior discounts" that are available to the "retired set." INAPAM, Seguro Social, IMSS, etc. that we all enjoy in addition to our SS checks.


I enjoy the discounts I get with my INAPAM card, but I did have to pay to sign up for health care coverage with IMSS.


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## lagoloo

IMSS isn't free, and the rates increase with age. Seguro Popular has a sliding scale based on income, but is very generous about it.

One comment about Social Security worth mentioning: If you were self-employed in your working years, you paid both the employer and the employee's share, as in double the amount the employees paid. I know about this since I was the employer. Ouch. I am definitely entitled to my SS checks. As someone said, it's "benign foreign aid" to Mexico in my case. lol.


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## joaquinx

lagoloo said:


> IMSS isn't free, and the rates increase with age. Seguro Popular has a sliding scale based on income, but is very generous about it.
> 
> One comment about Social Security worth mentioning: If you were self-employed in your working years, you paid both the employer and the employee's share, as in double the amount the employees paid. I know about this since I was the employer. Ouch. I am definitely entitled to my SS checks. As someone said, it's "benign foreign aid" to Mexico in my case. lol.


IMSS is certainly cheaper than health insurance in the US. That was what I was hinting at and not that it was free.

I wasný saying that SS was "benign foreign aid", but that our spending of those fund in Mexico was as the monies went directly to the people and not funneled though a government agency. Benevolent and NOT benign aid.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> And that is the major attraction for most folks. Then comes the ability to vote, own land by simple deed near the border or seacoast, etc. All *residents* are equally eligible for most everything else, so those other arguments are moot.


You forgot about getting half off on your property taxes. They tell me that is only available to senior citizens, not senior residents. Given how expensive property taxes are, that is a big benefit.


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## cscscs007

Double Dipping by definition -

Double Dipping is a term used to indicate the possibility for dual resident companies to deduct the same expenses in two jurisdictions.
It is also a practice of receiving compensation, benefits, etc. from two or more sources in a way regarded as unethical.

First of all I am not at the age for retirement. That said, Social Security to those eligible for it should get it. 

Secondly, a person can live in the US for many many years and move to another country like Mexico. While in Mexico that person can have the same feelings for Mexico as they do for the US. To desire for dual citizenship would be a natural thing. To me it would be a way to "belong" and be a legitimate member of the community where the person now lives. IMO the OP wasn't wanting to renounce their citizenship, they were of the belief that this may be a requirement in order to become a citizen of Mexico. Since renouncing one's citizenship is not required the question was answered. As with most posts it may lead in different directions and so be it. 

As for "double dipping" there is none of that going on here as I see it. You want to see an example of double dipping look at the companies in the US that are moving their headquarters outside of the US. Those companies should be ashamed of their conduct, having no conscience and willing to stoop to new lows. Why? GREED. As it so happens Burger King just announced their plans to do this exact thing. 

Mexico should be proud of the fact that it offers such programs to retired persons as half off fares, taxes, admission to museums, and so forth. Citizen or not, it can be used by all, even a tourist on vacation for 1 or 2 weeks is eligible to receive these discounts.


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## Isla Verde

cscscs007 said:


> Mexico should be proud of the fact that it offers such programs to retired persons as half off fares, taxes, admission to museums, and so forth. Citizen or not, it can be used by all, even a tourist on vacation for 1 or 2 weeks is eligible to receive these discounts.


Foreign tourists on vacation in Mexico are not eligible to apply for and receive an INAPAM card, which is what you need to get the discounts you refer to.


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## JaunMadera

from what I've read, it seemed like property tax was pretty low relative to here in the states ???


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## TundraGreen

JaunMadera said:


> from what I've read, it seemed like property tax was pretty low relative to here in the states ???


I guess irony doesn't work very well in written text. I was trying to make a joke. My property taxes here are a little over $100 usd/year. If I were a citizen I would save about $50 usd/year.


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## citlali

The discount on property taxes is no given past a certain value. In Chiapas I used to get 50% discount as a resident, I became a citizen and I have no discount past the pay early discount, I guess the value of the house exceed what it should be to receive a discount.

In Chapala non citizen did not receie a discount with the INAPAM, Now that I am a citizen I think I get a whole 10% above what I get when I pay early so I must save at least 200 pesos!


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## citlali

The man from the SS office told me I was entitld to my SS wether US citizen, ALien or illegal, you get the money because you participated in the program period.
Vantexans if yur family feel that way they should stay in the US but I will spend my money including SS where I chose to spend it.I do not need to be loyal to the US since I am not a citizen and cannot stay there more than 3 months if I wish to visit...I could not spend it there all year round since I do not have a green card so I am spending it in Mexico and will spend it in CUba when I visit. How about that one?


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> The discount on property taxes is no given past a certain value. In Chiapas I used to get 50% discount as a resident, I became a citizen and I have no discount past the pay early discount, I guess the value of the house exceed what it should be to receive a discount.
> 
> In Chapala non citizen did not receie a discount with the INAPAM, Now that I am a citizen I think I get a whole 10% above what I get when I pay early so I must save at least 200 pesos!


Apparently it varies by jurisdiction. In Guadalajara, I get a 10% discount for paying early. There is a 50% senior citizen discount, that is only offered to citizens. I have never seen anything that indicated that discounts were limited by property value, not so far anyway.


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## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> I guess irony doesn't work very well in written text. I was trying to make a joke. My property taxes here are a little over $100 usd/year. If I were a citizen I would save about $50 usd/year.


There's the problem. What would you do with the extra money? Enough for me not to apply for citizenship.


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## Isla Verde

I'm going to apply for Mexican citizenship in a few years because I like the idea of having two passports!


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## JaunMadera

thanks for all the replies everyone. While I'm still a long way off from retiring, being this well informed this far ahead makes me comfortable in knowing what I'm getting myself into.


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## citlali

It is good that you keep aware of what is going on but there is one thing for sure in the last 5 or 10 years things will be different .


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## JaunMadera

yeah, I know.  its a good baseline though

Plus, I plan on buying down there sooner than moving, so its all good. I think just getting used to all the nooks and cranny's of the system seems to be a big leap. Once I've got that down, the fact that some of the details might change, its all still within the same context.


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## cscscs007

One does NOT need the INAPAM card to get these discounts. Why do I know this? Personal experience is why.

My father came to visit last October for 3 weeks. During this time we went everywhere I could take him in the time he was here. We went to Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, Talpa de Allende, Barra de Navidad, Melaque, Manzanillo, and Mexico City for the grand finale.

In Mexico City we went to Chapultepec Park to see Los Ninos Heroes, the Castillo, the Zocalo (teachers were on strike so everything was closed), Xochimilco, Teotihuacan, the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and a lot more just can't remember off the top of my head. 

He has no INAPAM card but he is 69 years old. He only had to show his ID (not his passport) to show proof of age and he received half off bus tickets, free admission to the Chapultepec Castle, and if I remember 1/2 price to one or two others, but most were free for him, I do remember that because he was amazed the country of Mexico treats the older generation in such a manner. The bus companies we used were Primera Plus, ETN, and if I remember correctly Omnibus. All of them were 50% for him.


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## citlali

Again it all depends. In Chiapas I go ery frequently in a museum next to my house and if I want to go in there for free I have to show my INAPAM card. , I also have to show it before boarding the bus so there is no absolute but you do have to show it a lot more often than no and I know this from experience as well.
I also had to show it to get in for free at the Templo Mayor in Mexico.


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## Isla Verde

I have to use my INAPAM card to get discounts at the pharmacy, for long-distance bus rides, for concerts at Bellas Artes, and to get discounts at certain restaurants. I also need it to ride for free on the DF subway system.


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## TundraGreen

In Guadalajara they sell "transvales" at a 50% discount for students and seniors for use in the local buses. They never ask me for my INAPAM card when purchasing the transvales. Nor do they ask me for it on the buses when I use them. Students are required to show an ID card both when purchasing transvales and when using them. It appears that my grey hair is sufficient ID for the local bus system.

In all other cases, I am asked to show my INAPAM card. For intercity buses, I show it when purchasing the tickets and frequently am asked to show it again when boarding the bus.

Occasionally, people accompanying me who appear to be my age have been given discounts based on my getting one, without their having to show an INAPAM card. This has mainly happened in museums.


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## michmex

Isla Verde said:


> I have to use my INAPAM card to get discounts at the pharmacy, for long-distance bus rides, for concerts at Bellas Artes, and to get discounts at certain restaurants. I also need it to ride for free on the DF subway system.



Same here. I also live in the D. F. Today, I needed it to ride the Metro and also at Farmacia San Pablo. Occasionally, I have seen the police officer use his card for some obviously elderly people who did not show a INAPAM card. Once while going to Toluca by bus the agent checked very closely to make sure my INAPAM card was the actual card and not a copy.


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## michmex

JaunMadera said:


> from what I've read, it seemed like property tax was pretty low relative to here in the states ???


Our property tax here in Mexico is slightly less than 10% of what we paid in Farmington Hills, Michigan for a roughly equivalent home.


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## TundraGreen

michmex said:


> Our property tax here in Mexico is slightly less than 10% of what we paid in Farmington Hills, Michigan for a roughly equivalent home.


My Mexican house is 3 times the size of the house I lived in in California.
The cost of the Mexican house is 25% of the cost of the California house (San Francisco area).
And the property taxes in Mexico are 1.5% (not a typo, less than 2%) of the properties taxes in California.

After California, I lived in Colorado for awhile.

The Mexican house is 1.5 times the size of the Colorado house (Boulder).
The cost is 50% of the cost in Colorado.
And the taxes are 2.5% of the Colorado property taxes.

Note: The price comparison is roughly in current prices.


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## lagoloo

Prices sound about right, Tundra Green.
The S.F. Bay Area is a great place to live, but the home prices went so high that just the taxes on a mid level home make it unaffordable to live there on the usual retirement income. That's where we lived, and departed from .
Sure, you can find a cheap condo in a retirement high rise in Florida, but what most of us are seeking is a quality of life that doesn't make us feel deprived in our later years.
Life in Mexico fills the bill far better than the aformentioned cheap condo and the lifestyle that goes with it.
Picky, picky maybe? I try to get the most bang for my buck.


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## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> My Mexican house is 3 times the size of the house I lived in in California.
> The cost of the Mexican house is 25% of the cost of the California house (San Francisco area).
> And the property taxes in Mexico are 1.5% (not a typo, less than 2%) of the properties taxes in California.
> 
> After California, I lived in Colorado for awhile.
> 
> The Mexican house is 1.5 times the size of the Colorado house (Boulder).
> The cost is 50% of the cost in Colorado.
> And the taxes are 2.5% of the Colorado property taxes.
> 
> Note: The price comparison is roughly in current prices.


If you build a house here you save even more and have a custom house.

Remodeling and maintenance here is a fraction, maybe 1/4 to 1/3, of the cost that it is in San Diego.

Also the houses here are solid brick and cement plaster and immune to flood damage [leaky pipe etc.], not carpet and are usually tile and are cooler in summer.

Curtains, blinds, painting and landscaping are much cheaper to do here than San Diego.

Downside is the roads are not as smooth in general.


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## lagoloo

The roads? OMG. Here in Ajijic, the main road through town isn't bad, but they repaved it and the access streets have to overcome huge bumps to enter the main road. Other than that, I really miss the sidewalks NOB. I am a multiply fallen woman here. 
Yet, there are staunch defenders of the cobblestones....to the death. At least 90% of them are men in sturdy shoes or sandals, of course.

One problem with Mexican buildings methods is that the plumbing is buried in the walls so that the (yes, less costly) plumbers need to tear out the walls to get to the problem.
Right now I'm looking at one. Wall.
Then, there's the painting. The painters tend to thin the paint. Three layers later, you have a layer.

However, they work hard, usually don't bring their big barking dogs and loud radios with them and are very polite as well as less costly.
Viva Mexico


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## RVGRINGO

Why do you let them thin the finish coat? Thinning the base coat is a good idea for better penetration.


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## JaunMadera

wow, this thread is derailing a bit... but hey, I'm game, its my thread after all 

generally speaking, what sort of cost would I be looking at to build something in the 1500 to 1900 Sq Ft range? (150 sq m ... "ish")? Nothing fancy, just the basics


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## Longford

While comparisons between property tax amounts paid in the USA vs. Mexico can be important factor for expat property owners, the comparison is largely one of apples to oranges ... when we consider what we get for the money paid in the two countries and what the services the property taxes pay for actually cost to deliver in the countries. 

In the USA, property taxes typically provide for police, fire and other emergency responders; public education at several levels (pre-school, elementary, high school and junior college); parks and recreation facilities; health services, including public hospitals and clinics; roadway construction, maintenance and repairs; water and trash sanitation matters; and, a myriad of other services. What we get for our money varies by city and state.

From what I'm remembering, property tax in Mexico is not calculated uniformly. There are variances depending upon the municipio. I know some folks who, in addition to calculating their property taxes, were required to pay an additional 25% for local programs.

Maybe of greater impact/interest to expats - since I'm guessing most are not purchasing property in Mexico - is the sales tax / IVA rates which is probably higher than they were accustomed to paying 'back home.'

And regarding the comments pertaining to cost of construction in Mexico vs. the USA: the answer as to why is too obvious to have to explain.


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## AlanMexicali

JaunMadera said:


> wow, this thread is derailing a bit... but hey, I'm game, its my thread after all
> 
> generally speaking, what sort of cost would I be looking at to build something in the 1500 to 1900 Sq Ft range? (150 sq m ... "ish")? Nothing fancy, just the basics


Fancy fixtures and design including sewer hookup complete with landscaping without the cost of the lot about 1900 sg. ft. here would cost about $75,000 to $85,000 US if you know someone to get you a good deal from a good builder.

A very small lot in a "privada" [100 sq, meters or less] with a 3 br. 1300 to 1400 sq. ft. house , no fancy anything, ready for a cabinet makeer to do your kitchen and closets and add you own AC, light fixtures and patio etc. here is about $70,000 in a working class área. In a middle class área about $110,000 US., cabinets included. Here it is a buyers market at the moment from over building. The "privadas" that include the construction usually won´t discount.


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## Hound Dog

deleted


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## GARYJ65

Interes social housing would go from 260,000 to 700,000 pesos
Interes medio 700,000 to 1,000,000
middle class 1100,000 to 1900,000
residential from 1,900,000 to 2,500,00
above that it would be higher or high end housing


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## michmex

Longford said:


> While comparisons between property tax amounts paid in the USA vs. Mexico can be important factor for expat property owners, the comparison is largely one of apples to oranges ... when we consider what we get for the money paid in the two countries and what the services the property taxes pay for actually cost to deliver in the countries.
> 
> In the USA, property taxes typically provide for police, fire and other emergency responders; public education at several levels (pre-school, elementary, high school and junior college); parks and recreation facilities; health services, including public hospitals and clinics; roadway construction, maintenance and repairs; water and trash sanitation matters; and, a myriad of other services. What we get for our money varies by city and state.
> ...........
> 
> Maybe of greater impact/interest to expats - since I'm guessing most are not purchasing property in Mexico - is the sales tax / IVA rates which is probably higher than they were accustomed to paying 'back home.'
> 
> And regarding the comments pertaining to cost of construction in Mexico vs. the USA: the answer as to why is too obvious to have to explain.


For us it is a more apples to apples situation. The only substantial difference is the difference in schools for our 10 year old. Here, he goes to a private school while if we were still in SE Michigan it would be a public school. The public school system in Michigan would rate higher in quality than many private schools here. Higher education at the university level certainly favors Mexico at pretty much all levels except for vocational education. 

Police - many more here levels/types here although their training and integrity would be rated much lower. (Judges and cops were not all that honest in the Chicago area when I lived there -Operation Greylord) Security situation is pretty much equal. We have always lived in safe areas.

Fire - we live equal distance from the nearest station and again training levels would favor Farmington Hills and the USA. Given the steel/concrete/brick construction here I'm not sure if I would even consider a comparison as home fires are pretty rare here.

Health services certainly favors Mexico, especially in the major metropolitan areas for costs, availability and quality of specialists. Public hospitals and clinics- do they still exist in Chicagoland? Quality of professional services at them? They were not the greatest when I lived in Westmont in the mid 1980's. The healthcare I received here in 1997 (2 weeks at Hospital ABC - 28 specialists) was excellent - world class. My USA based company health insurance received my claim, looked at the bottom line and paid the claim in less than a week.

Roadway construction, maintenance and repairs are pretty much equal. I would like more expressways in the D. F. but our public transportation system is at least equal to Chicago and much better than Detroit - at a lower cost. Spring in Michigan as well as Illinois was marked by the sprouting of orange barrels along the freeways or sometimes not so free ways and would create traffic headaches for months. Not so common here as Mexico City doesn't have the extreme seasonal changes in weather and temperature. Size of topes certainly goes to Mexico. 

Water and trash - water is provided at the same cost and trash collection is less expensive and with better service. The system of cisterns and tinacos and pumps is more complicated and expensive to maintain. A slight advantage to the USA.

Housing costs - somewhat equal to many areas I have lived in - building costs are much lower - homes, in general, require less annual maintenance - homes are generally larger and finished with higher quality, custom items (windows are crappy) - lots are generally much smaller with no "front lawn" and are built more closely to one another. Closing costs are much higher in Mexico. If I'm ever reincarnated I want to return as a Notario in Mexico!

Sales tax versus IVA favors the USA. For us, we are most impacted on vehicle purchases, major appliances and larger electronics. We buy many of our clothes and smaller electronics when we make our bi-annual trips back to the USA. Like most of the USA, food and medicine are not taxed in Mexico. With careful attention paid to shopping, the sales tax - IVA difference can be minimized except for vehicle purchases.

WINNER - MEXICO hands down.


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## michmex

JaunMadera said:


> wow, this thread is derailing a bit... but hey, I'm game, its my thread after all
> 
> generally speaking, what sort of cost would I be looking at to build something in the 1500 to 1900 Sq Ft range? (150 sq m ... "ish")? Nothing fancy, just the basics


We have a 3.5 level home built on a hillside overlooking a golf course which is larger than you are contemplating. We purchased a newly constructed but unoccupied home which required some minor work to finish. The purchase was favorable for us as the seller's wife decided at the last moment she did not want to move from her old home near her parent's - sisters colonia to the new home her husband had built for her.

Nice area and location with perhaps higher construction costs compensates somewhat for the favorable purchase price. Our costs including land and finishing but not closing costs was about $63 USD per sq. foot. The engineer we hired to prepare for negotiations estimated the seller's building costs at around $45 USD per square foot. Materials used to finish the inside of the home were above average but certainly not luxury. An exchange rate of 12.85 MXN Pesos per $USD was used for these computations. Land prices range from quite low to on par with a comparable tot in the USA.


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## mxsailor

Hello, new today to this forum. I've been living full time in Mexico since 2005. I feel freer in this country than I do in the USA, and the weather suits me better. If someone is unhappy about me leaving the USA, that's their problem, not mine. I have less than 2 years left on my temporada, own two houses and a sailboat in Mexico, and run a small business over the internet to supplement my social security. Guess you could say I'm "all-in."


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> I don't believe in 'double dipping.' We're a citizen of one country, or another. I don't have a problem with someone renouncing their citizenship in a country. I do lack respect for many of the people who 'double dip' in order to take advantage of benefits a second country may offer, while not wanting to give up the rights they have/had in their 'other' country.


Double dipping with dual citizenship [loyality to the USA], corrupt from the top to the bottom, "no one I know trusts the pólice; they are your enemy", worst public schools, illegal to do tourist FMMs in a row, high financials for a resident visa, Mexican DNA corrupt, not safe in some places to visit or drive around on the hwy., terrorist organizations in some places, intercity bus robberies common, poor health care unless in the largest cities, etc.. More excuses not to ever live here or visit maybe?


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## TundraGreen

mxsailor said:


> Hello, new today to this forum. I've been living full time in Mexico since 2005. I feel freer in this country than I do in the USA, and the weather suits me better. If someone is unhappy about me leaving the USA, that's their problem, not mine. I have less than 2 years left on my temporada, own two houses and a sailboat in Mexico, and run a small business over the internet to supplement my social security. Guess you could say I'm "all-in."


:welcome:


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## AlanMexicali

mxsailor said:


> Hello, new today to this forum. I've been living full time in Mexico since 2005. I feel freer in this country than I do in the USA, and the weather suits me better. If someone is unhappy about me leaving the USA, that's their problem, not mine. I have less than 2 years left on my temporada, own two houses and a sailboat in Mexico, and run a small business over the internet to supplement my social security. Guess you could say I'm "all-in."


""All In" may refer to: All in (poker), wagering one's entire stake"

Had to Google "all-in"

If the economy here dumps my wife and I go along with it.


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## JaunMadera

AlanMexicali said:


> Double dipping with dual citizenship [loyality to the USA], corrupt from the top to the bottom, "no one I know trusts the pólice; they are your enemy", worst public schools, illegal to do tourist FMMs in a row, high financials for a resident visa, Mexican DNA corrupt, not safe in some places to visit or drive around on the hwy., terrorist organizations in some places, intercity bus robberies common, poor health care unless in the largest cities, etc.. More excuses not to ever live here or visit maybe?



? Are all these quotes from one person ?


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## mxsailor

AlanMexicali said:


> ""All In" may refer to: All in (poker), wagering one's entire stake"
> 
> Had to Google "all-in"
> 
> If the economy here dumps my wife and I go along with it.


That's true of anyplace in the world, including the the US. I can only speak for myself, but living in Mexico is great... Not perfect. If you are in a border town, you get to see the worst of both countries. Search Google for San Carlos, Sonora.. Check out the photos. Consider a move... If nothing changes, nothing changes. GLTA


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## dwwhiteside

I recently read that more and more US citizens living (or wanting to live) abroad are renouncing their US citizenship. It is not strictly for tax purposes; a lot has to do with the new FACTA (sp?) stuff. It seems like a lot of banks around the world are now simply refusing to open accounts for US citizens due to the onerous burden put on them by the IRS in the US.

I am actually considering it, once I can get my Mexican citizenship. Renouncing US citizenship does not affect your ability to collect your SS benefits from the US however, depending on where you live, it may make it more difficult to collect them. That does not apply to Mexico.


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## joaquinx

dwwhiteside said:


> I recently read that more and more US citizens living (or wanting to live) abroad are renouncing their US citizenship. It is not strictly for tax purposes; a lot has to do with the new FACTA (sp?) stuff. It seems like a lot of banks around the world are now simply refusing to open accounts for US citizens due to the onerous burden put on them by the IRS in the US.


Those who are renouncing their US citizenship are those with heavy stashes of money in foreign banks that they don’t want to pay taxes on. There are few banks that are dropping accounts for US citizens. In fact HSBC is one of a number of banks that are 100% compliant with FATCA - worldwide. The only bank that I have heard of dropping clients was Banamex USA, a US bank, and not because of FATCA but because of money laundering investigations. If fact, Banamex USA is closing a number of their branches in CA and TX.


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## mxsailor

Banamex just closed their branch in San Carlos, Sonora. I would never bank there anyway. They overcharge for their services, among other drawbacks.


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## lagoloo

....and then, there are others who renouce for their own reasons.
Some people are really pizzed off at the U.S.A. on general principles. 

We do not know who was dropped by Banamex USA due to money laundering concerns. I, and a number of other permanent residents of Mexico with substantial accounts in that bank were also dropped and no reason was given.
The only thing I launder is dirty fabrics.


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## Longford

Renunciation of citizenship, by U.S. citizens, is a relatively small number. Last year .0000009% of citizens, or 3,000, did so. But the number of US citizens doing that has risen steadily and U.S. tax laws are cited as a principal reason. As for others, there are always malcontents ... in any country (and I'm happy that they will choose another country to affiliate with, and then whine about their new country), including in Mexico where, if public opinion polls (and my recollection) have been accurate, about 1/3 of Mexicans who have been asked if they would leave Mexico for the U.S. given the chance ... they have said they would do it. That would be 34 million who might leave. One of the side effects of dual citizenship, as I understand it, is that if a U.S. citizen who has dual citizenship and is in the foreign country ... they are not afforded any of the services or protections of the U.S. Embassy or consulates while they are in Mexico (including legal or consular assistance). Whether that's true or not I don't know with certainty, but I have read it previously on websites of the U.S. government.

Here's a link to an article discussing the topic: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...your-u-s-citizenship-its-gonna-cost-you-more/


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## citlali

Asking for services from the consulate of your country of origin if you are naturalize may resut into the nauralized citizen loosing the Mexican citizenship. But why would you ask for help fro the consulate?? They usually are doing nothing if you are in trouble anyways.

By the way if you have dual citizenship and declare yourself Mexican (which you have to do by law)at Banamex Mexico or any other Mexican bank the bank does not report anything to the US so you do not need to drop your citizenship.
I am French and the bank does not report anything so that was not my motive for becoming a citizen.


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## joaquinx

citlali said:


> By the way if you have dual citizenship and declare yourself Mexican (which you have to do by law)at Banamex Mexico or any other Mexican bank the bank does not report anything to the US so you do not need to drop your citizenship.


This a very, very interesting point. I wonder if the IRS has thought of it.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Asking for services from the consulate of your country of origin if you are naturalize may resut into the nauralized citizen loosing the Mexican citizenship. But why would you ask for help fro the consulate?? They usually are doing nothing if you are in trouble anyways.


Maybe you've not needed such assistance, but many expats from the USA have. For example: in the case of a death and following that assistance with the repatriation of the deceased's body. Also, too, when someone is arrested or incarcerated - Consular staff typically visit the incarcerated citizen and facilitate communication with that person's family, etc. There are also Consular services such as notarization of estate planning documents, notarization of various documents for legal purposes ... which are typically done at a Consulate or Consular Agent. Sorry the USA or French Consulates haven't been helpful to you in the past.



citlali said:


> By the way if you have dual citizenship and declare yourself Mexican (which you have to do by law)at Banamex Mexico or any other Mexican bank the bank does not report anything to the US so you do not need to drop your citizenship. I am French and the bank does not report anything so that was not my motive for becoming a citizen.


Maybe your understanding of the regulations is accurate. Maybe not. I don't know what regulations France has, but I believe as far as US citizens are concerned, as long as they remain citizens of the USA the banks may have to report. An interesting question, though. I doubt many, if any, expats posting to this forum who relocate to Mexico or are considering such a relocation are doing so to conceal income/assets. Though, there have been some criminal expats who choose Mexico as a place to hide from law enforcement in the USA (and other countries) and/or the judicial system there.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> Maybe you've not needed such assistance, but many expats from the USA have. For example: in the case of a death and following that assistance with the repatriation of the deceased's body. Also, too, when someone is arrested or incarcerated - Consular staff typically visit the incarcerated citizen and facilitate communication with that person's family, etc. There are also Consular services such as notarization of estate planning documents, notarization of various documents for legal purposes ... which are typically done at a Consulate or Consular Agent. Sorry the USA or French Consulates haven't been helpful to you in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe your understanding of the regulations is accurate. Maybe not. I don't know what regulations France has, but I believe as far as US citizens are concerned, as long as they remain citizens of the USA the banks may have to report. An interesting question, though. I doubt many, if any, expats posting to this forum who relocate to Mexico or are considering such a relocation are doing so to conceal income/assets. Though, there have been some criminal expats who choose Mexico as a place to hide from law enforcement in the USA (and other countries) and/or the judicial system there.


I believe you are correct. Mexican banks are bound by treaty to comply with US foreign banking regulations affecting US citizens in Mexico, even if they have dual citizenship. However, as Joaquinx points out, the US may not have thought about that or maybe it is too few people to worry about. I would think that wealthy people hiding money in overseas account would be something the US would worry about.


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## joaquinx

If I had citizenship in both Mexico and the US, then went into a Mexican bank and opened an account using my IFE card as ID, how would the IRS know about it? The bank wouldn’t need to report it via FATCA rules, because as far as they know, I’m Mexican. I wouldn’t have to be Mexican, I could be Bahamian.


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## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> If I had citizenship in both Mexico and the US, then went into a Mexican bank and opened an account using my IFE card as ID, how would the IRS know about it? The bank wouldn’t need to report it via FATCA rules, because as far as they know, I’m Mexican. I wouldn’t have to be Mexican, I could be Bahamian.


Consequently, you would be in violation of US banking regulations, but unlikely to get caught. For now at least. :fingerscrossed:


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## citlali

Actually SRE told us to go and change our nationality at the bank and thre is no dual citizenship here, if you are naturalize you are Mexican period so why would they report anything ? As joaquinx said if you open an account with your IFE the bank does not know you are a US citizen so there is nothing to report.
We just opened an account here and only showed our IFE so they are not going to report anything. Actually they do not report to France so it is irrelevant for me.

Longford I have lived abroad for about 45 years and I have yet to use any service from the French consulate out side of the usual passport paperwork. You cannot use the consulate to intervene for you while in Mexico but as far as notifying family, passport etc there is no problem.
I have never used the consulate to get me out of trouble , never been in jail in any of the countries I have lived so as far as that is concerned I have never used their services.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Longford I have lived abroad for about 45 years and I have yet to use any service from the French consulate out side of the usual passport paperwork. You cannot use the consulate to intervene for you while in Mexico but as far as notifying family, passport etc there is no problem.
> I have never used the consulate to get me out of trouble , never been in jail in any of the countries I have lived so as far as that is concerned I have never used their services.


Compared to the approx. 1 million US citizens or otherwise legal residents of the US who reside in Mexico now, I'm going to assume that the number of French who reside in Mexico is relatively small in comparison. That you haven't had the need for services from the French government is probably good for you. However, your good fortune may not be shared by everyone else. 

I have no knowledge of requirements of France regarding financial institutions in Mexico or any other foreign country being asked to report on financial affairs of French citizens living abroad. The US has such requirements and, to me, it's still unclear whether a bank in Mexico will be required to report on the financial affairs of a USA citizen who has become a naturalized citizen in Mexico but who has not renounced his/her US citizenship. If I found myself in those shoes I would seek advice from someone whose answers to the questions would be reliable (as compared to web forum chit chat).


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## citlali

You probably have to report it to your government but if you are a dual citizen and floow what SRE tells you to do which is to change your citizenship reporting at the bank and you are not allow to call yourself a US citizen while living in Mexico , the bank has not way to know you are a US citizen and therefore the treaties do not apply . It is pretty simple.
The US will end up with your report and nothing from the Mexican bank to check against.

The SRE was emphatic you are not a US citizen when naturalized so Mexico will not report anything unless you do not bother changing your nationality at the bank but thn you will be breaking the Mexican law.. You will have your way while in Mexico you are Mexican period , they wil not look at you as a dual citizen and by the way the US will not look at you as a Mexican either so you are still stuck and you will have to follow the US rules with your government.

Mexico has no way of nothing if you renounce your citizenship in the States or not and do not care. You have to sign a paper that you renounce your US citizenship while in Mexico and that is all they care about and they tell you that when you sign.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> Compared to the approx. 1 million US citizens or otherwise legal residents of the US who reside in Mexico now, I'm going to assume that the number of French who reside in Mexico is relatively small in comparison. That you haven't had the need for services from the French government is probably good for you. However, your good fortune may not be shared by everyone else.
> 
> I have no knowledge of requirements of France regarding financial institutions in Mexico or any other foreign country being asked to report on financial affairs of French citizens living abroad. The US has such requirements and, to me, it's still unclear whether a bank in Mexico will be required to report on the financial affairs of a USA citizen who has become a naturalized citizen in Mexico but who has not renounced his/her US citizenship. If I found myself in those shoes I would seek advice from someone whose answers to the questions would be reliable (as compared to web forum chit chat).


I think it is clear that the Mexican bank IS required to report to the US on deposits of US citizens. However, the bank has no easy way to know who is a US citizen if that person is also a Mexican citizen.


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> I think it is clear that the Mexican bank IS required to report to the US on deposits of US citizens. However, the bank has no easy way to know who is a US citizen if that person is also a Mexican citizen.


I agree with an earlier comment of yours, the gist of which was why would the US government have a specific interest in or discover the finances of an expat dual citizens living in Mexico. Whether or not financial institutions in Mexico will provide (or be required to provide) the US government with expat dual citizen financial information will become evident over time. Anyone who thinks the US government will not know that an expat is receiving Social Security direct deposits and other bank account withdrawals/transfers from the US is kidding themselves. I do believe that unless someone has formally renounced their US citizenship they are subject to tax reporting/payment regulations of the US (as read together with tax reporting/payment regulations of Mexico and international treaties). I doubt that anyone here in this discussion is attempting to conceal anything.


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## citlali

concealing anything would be really tough since my IRA´s are in the States, My SS is deposited in te States and they withdraw 30% of any IRa moneys I take out and I have to ckain whatever at the end of the year. They withdraw 10% if you are a US citizen., the ones that are hidding stuff are not the ones who have pensions, SS or IRA´s believe me we are stuck paying even if we are not citizens.


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