# NZ immigration fooling people?



## ozmigration

Well,

Looking at numbers and refusals, i m sure NZ immigration is making money at expense of others.

First, looking at current pool picks, it clearly shows they keen to invite onshore applicants, even if we agree to the point. the logic is simple, don't ask/accept applications without Job offer.

Everyone crosses 140 and applies for Visa, and then after long wait comes refusal, WHY TO MAKE MONEY LIKE THIS, and that 2 from so many people. what u call it.

If my knowledge or research is limited, you are free to respond and correct me.

Take Care


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## topcat83

ozmigration said:


> Well,
> 
> Looking at numbers and refusals, i m sure NZ immigration is making money at expense of others.
> 
> First, looking at current pool picks, it clearly shows they keen to invite onshore applicants, even if we agree to the point. the logic is simple, don't ask/accept applications without Job offer.
> 
> Everyone crosses 140 and applies for Visa, and then after long wait comes refusal, WHY TO MAKE MONEY LIKE THIS, and that 2 from so many people. what u call it.
> 
> If my knowledge or research is limited, you are free to respond and correct me.
> 
> Take Care


I'm afraid that it was made very clear quite a few months ago by NZ Immigration that they were going to only offer most visas subject to a job offer, or subject to receiving a job offer within a certain time of arriving. And it doesn't matter how many points you have - them were the rules they set. 

See the cut'n'paste from the NZ Immigration website (How do I apply?)

_'Our decision on your application

There are three possible outcomes:


We grant you residence.
We defer your application and offer you a temporary work visa so you can work while you get a skilled job offer. If you get skilled work, we will approve your residence application.
We decline your application.'
_
They also review your application to make sure you can _prove_ the points that you are claiming. 
Obviously I don't know the details of your situation.
But there is _never_ a guarantee of an immediate offer of permanent residency - regardless of the number of points you have.


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## Weta

ozmigration said:


> If my knowledge or research is limited, you are free to respond and correct me.
> 
> Take Care


I agree with you, it is a fair observation. If people really do not stand any chance of being picked at anything less than 140 points, then they are just cashing in on all those that don't have a hope. They shouldn't bother accepting the lower points applications.


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## MrsRose

NZ immigration has been pretty straight forward in our case. Information about qualifications and likelihood of being selected was made very clear to us. There are no guarantees for anyone with less than 140 points, and currently, having a job offer is pretty important for being selected. 

My husband and I have submitted an initial assessment with an immigration consultant (it's basically a practice EOI.) If we were to submit an EOI right now, we'd have over 100 points, but not 140. With a job offer, we'd have well over 140 points. So when the time comes, we'll look for work and hopefully secure a job offer BEFORE submitting our EOI.


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## carosapien

How many employers bother to hang around waiting for PR to be granted after the EOI has been submitted?


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## escapedtonz

carosapien said:


> How many employers bother to hang around waiting for PR to be granted after the EOI has been submitted?


In my experience no employer interested until I had PR and the flights booked, however saying that my new colleagues from other corners of the globe secured their equivalent job even before approaching Immigration NZ so maybe I was just looking for work with the wrong companies initially. Maybe if I had applied to the company I work for now I would have secured the job before PR and they could have put pressure on Immigration NZ to get me here sooner or at least assisted with the process - I will never know!!!


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## escapedtonz

MrsRose said:


> NZ immigration has been pretty straight forward in our case. Information about qualifications and likelihood of being selected was made very clear to us. There are no guarantees for anyone with less than 140 points, and currently, having a job offer is pretty important for being selected.
> 
> My husband and I have submitted an initial assessment with an immigration consultant (it's basically a practice EOI.) If we were to submit an EOI right now, we'd have over 100 points, but not 140. With a job offer, we'd have well over 140 points. So when the time comes, we'll look for work and hopefully secure a job offer BEFORE submitting our EOI.


Good luck in the hunt. 
Sure you know it won't be an easy task securing a job even before submitting EOI.
In our experience employers want to see some sort of commitment to getting here before consideration and make sure you do lots of research as they ask you the darnedest questions to figure out the chances of you staying after arrival. They want to make sure you know everything about life here and there won't be any surprises that will make you leave resulting in their investment loss and the fact they will need to fill the post again.
Of course it all depends on the line of work your in to and the type of management structure etc etc of a potential employer - ie a big company is in to all the behavioural competency blarney and performance rubbish and to me so difficult to sell yourself from thousands of miles away on stuff you know nothing about.
On the other hand someone who's a worker with his own business just wants someone who can do the job, be reliable and will make him money.
It's all swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Wish you lots of luck.


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## MrsRose

Yeah, we totally understand all the points raised in this thread. I'm told that having an immigration agent (and the financial commitment that comes with that) is a plus for employers. Part of our agents job will be to serve as a kind of mediator between is and employers, to ensure them of our commitment to making our move to NZ permanent and successful.


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## carosapien

LOL! Who told you it was a plus for employers? not the immigration agent I suppose  

To be honest with you I don't think employers care either way, all they want to know is do you have your visa yet and how little can they get away with paying you. Using an agent may even be counterproductive: it makes you look like you can't handle the paperwork yourself or yours is a difficult case for some reason and you've got heaps of cash to throw at the problem.


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## Guest

We got in under 140 and without jobs, Carole was the Applicant an experienced PE Teacher but as
said no job offer.

Carole applied for loads of NZ jobs whilst in the UK but never a hint of an offer. So it would seem
that you are better being here hunting jobs, ( I know you have to be accepted) two weeks in and
Carole gets a part-time PE job, better than nothing. 

I'm seeing what's out there for me at the moment.

Best of luck to all who are trying to join us here it's great. ( toms and mushrooms pricey though)

Shane


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## MrsRose

carosapien said:


> LOL! Who told you it was a plus for employers? not the immigration agent I suppose
> 
> To be honest with you I don't think employers care either way, all they want to know is do you have your visa yet and how little can they get away with paying you. Using an agent may even be counterproductive: it makes you look like you can't handle the paperwork yourself or yours is a difficult case for some reason and you've got heaps of cash to throw at the problem.


Much of this post with regard to the usefulness of immigration agents and what employers' interests are sounds like it may more opinion and speculation than useful advice for future immigrants. 
It seems reasonable to think that hiring a certified immigration agent, and making the financial committment that come with that, shows employers that you are serious about migration. An immigration agent is not "immigration for dummies." It's about taking the move seriously, making sure you follow all of the proper procedures and submit all of the required paperwork (all "T"s crossed and "I"s dotted) and making your immigration process as smooth and successful as possible. 
Can it be done on your own without help? Of course. And if this isn't your first international move, or you would rather go it on your own then that's perfectly acceptable as well. 
There may be some employers just looking for the cheapest employees. But I'll bet there are employers out there who prefer highly qualified workers who are worth being paid well for the skill and integrity of the work they do. Guess it just depends on where you look and what they're looking for.


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## Weta

MrsRose said:


> Much of this post with regard to the usefulness of immigration agents and what employers' interests are sounds like it may more opinion and speculation than useful advice for future immigrants.
> It seems reasonable to think that hiring a certified immigration agent, and making the financial committment that come with that, shows employers that you are serious about migration. An immigration agent is not "immigration for dummies." It's about taking the move seriously, making sure you follow all of the proper procedures and submit all of the required paperwork (all "T"s crossed and "I"s dotted) and making your immigration process as smooth and successful as possible.


How sad you didn't do some research earlier before falling for the costly sales patter  

You will of course find 100 reasons to justify to yourself why you are giving an agent a large chunk of your hard-earned dollars, but please don't kid yourself that it will curry you any favour with employers. They care not less how you obtain your visa and will only know if you tell them. 

Its good advice, not speculation, that you should save your money and do it yourself, there's plenty of free resource and 'opinion' on the matter - agents are only a middle-man and they can do nothing that you can't do yourself. General advice is only to use an agent if you have unusual or complicated circumstances. 

I wouldn't be letting anyone here in NZ know how much spare cash you have committed to this move, they'll already view you as the rich Auntie coming from the US of A. They don't like tall poppies at the best of time and showing off about how much you have or how well you have done overseas is never going to win you any friends or influence people.


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## topcat83

Weta said:


> How sad you didn't do some research earlier before falling for the costly sales patter
> 
> You will of course find 100 reasons to justify to yourself why you are giving an agent a large chunk of your hard-earned dollars, but please don't kid yourself that it will curry you any favour with employers. They care not less how you obtain your visa and will only know if you tell them.
> 
> Its good advice, not speculation, that you should save your money and do it yourself, there's plenty of free resource and 'opinion' on the matter - agents are only a middle-man and they can do nothing that you can't do yourself. General advice is only to use an agent if you have unusual or complicated circumstances.
> 
> I wouldn't be letting anyone here in NZ know how much spare cash you have committed to this move, they'll already view you as the rich Auntie coming from the US of A. They don't like tall poppies at the best of time and showing off about how much you have or how well you have done overseas is never going to win you any friends or influence people.


I didn't read Mrs Rose's post like that at all, Weta. I certainly didn't read it as 'letting people know how much spare cash you have' - it was saying 'show commitment to emigrating so they know that you aren't wasting their time'.

As it so goes, I agree with you on the agent front - I can't see the point on wasting money on agents in situations where the application is straight-forward.

But you do need to show a positive commitment in the form of an actual vis application or a visit to the country before many employers will consider your application.


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## MrsRose

Weta said:


> I wouldn't be letting anyone here in NZ know how much spare cash you have committed to this move, they'll already view you as the rich Auntie coming from the US of A. They don't like tall poppies at the best of time and showing off about how much you have or how well you have done overseas is never going to win you any friends or influence people.


Is it common in NZ, or just on this forum, to leap to so many judgments and generalizations about people you've never met? So because we're from the States we're automatically rich? And being from the states and therefore _must _be rich, we must also be they type who delights in "showing off" our wealth, it that it? 
Good grief. Seriously? You are aware that the 1% in American is called "the 1%" for a reason, right? Cause not everyone in the States is driving high class cars, living in a mansion with a pool, and throwing all their "spare cash" at whatever they want. Believe it or not, many people in the States are your average middle class or lower class income families. For some families, "spare cash" is otherwise known as "savings"...money that you work hard for and save up over a period of time. 

It is just possible that we did do our research and actually _chose_ to seek the advice of an immigration agent.
Is an agent going to fill out our paperwork for us, go to our job interviews, and hold our hands as we exit the plane when we arrive in NZ? No. But they've provided very helpful information so far, and should we need any additional help later on or have problems during the process, we'll have that help to look to. 
The thing is, they're paid hourly. For a family who only utilizes them for questions, guidance, and advice as needed, that takes up a whopping few minutes on the phone every few months. Don't see why a few extra bucks for sound immigration advice on top of the costs you have to pay for the EOI, Visas, airfare, etc is seen as such a big deal.


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## carosapien

MrsRose said:


> Is it common in NZ, or just on this forum, to leap to so many judgments and generalizations about people you've never met? So because we're from the States we're automatically rich? And being from the states and therefore _must _be rich, we must also be they type who delights in "showing off" our wealth, it that it?
> Good grief. Seriously? You are aware that the 1% in American is called "the 1%" for a reason, right? Cause not everyone in the States is driving high class cars, living in a mansion with a pool, and throwing all their "spare cash" at whatever they want. Believe it or not, many people in the States are your average middle class or lower class income families. For some families, "spare cash" is otherwise known as "savings"...money that you work hard for and save up over a period of time.
> 
> It is just possible that we did do our research and actually _chose_ to seek the advice of an immigration agent.
> Is an agent going to fill out our paperwork for us, go to our job interviews, and hold our hands as we exit the plane when we arrive in NZ? No. But they've provided very helpful information so far, and should we need any additional help later on or have problems during the process, we'll have that help to look to.
> The thing is, they're paid hourly. For a family who only utilizes them for questions, guidance, and advice as needed, that takes up a whopping few minutes on the phone every few months. Don't see why a few extra bucks for sound immigration advice on top of the costs you have to pay for the EOI, Visas, airfare, etc is seen as such a big deal.


You're right it is no big deal that's why believing that it will somehow give you more kudos with employers, or show them that somehow you're more serious, is probably a waste of time.

I don't think that Weta holds those beliefs about Americans. We're all migrants here we know what's what and how stereotypes abound. Rather she was trying to show you how you may be regarded in New Zealand (that is how some Kiwis do see Americans) and warning you about the tall poppy syndrome.

Kiwis are generally very reserved people, they like to do things quietly with the minimum of fuss and drama. What you may regard as earnest endeavor they may see as being a try-hard. It's a cultural shift that you will have to be prepared to make, I'm not saying you'll have to hide your light under a bushel but you will have to let it glow gently and let people discover it.

Please don't take it for granted that using an agent is going to curry favour with employers. 

Among the expat community most of us know that every cent saved on emigration is valuable and don't see the point of wasting a few grand on paying someone to do something we can do ourselves. Getting a visa isn't an onerous process for most of us and you very soon get used to form filling and medicals and asking for advice on sites like this.


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## MrsRose

carosapien said:


> You're right it is no big deal that's why believing that it will somehow give you more kudos with employers, or show them that somehow you're more serious, is probably a waste of time.
> 
> I don't think that Weta holds those beliefs about Americans. We're all migrants here we know what's what and how stereotypes abound. Rather she was trying to show you how you may be regarded in New Zealand (that is how some Kiwis do see Americans) and warning you about the tall poppy syndrome.
> 
> Kiwis are generally very reserved people, they like to do things quietly with the minimum of fuss and drama. What you may regard as earnest endeavor they may see as being a try-hard. It's a cultural shift that you will have to be prepared to make, I'm not saying you'll have to hide your light under a bushel but you will have to let it glow gently and let people discover it.
> 
> Please don't take it for granted that using an agent is going to curry favour with employers.
> 
> Among the expat community most of us know that every cent saved on emigration is valuable and don't see the point of wasting a few grand on paying someone to do something we can do ourselves. Getting a visa isn't an onerous process for most of us and you very soon get used to form filling and medicals and asking for advice on sites like this.


I would have to agree that a few grand would be a lot of money to pay for immigration advice. But we're not paying a few grand. Our use of a consultant/agent is simply for guidance, advice, and support when needed. It's not one all-inclusive fee for their services. They're paid by the hour. So the less time spent working on your case, the less it costs. And since our case is pretty straight-forward, and we're filing our applications, and doing the paperwork ourselves, the only "time" spent on our case will be occasional phone calls asking any questions we have. 
In fact, we're anticipating sending no more than maybe $300 total for their services. (disclaimer: the preceding statement was in no way intended as a means of flaunting my wealth.)

I don't think anyone is under the impression that utilizing the services of an immigration agency will be the difference between not finding a job and "You're hired."

(And just as a side note: We aren't "counting on" an agent getting us a favorable outcome in job searching, and that's not why we're using one. I simply researched the "benefits of hiring an immigration agent" online, and came across websites and forum discussion in which the idea that employer look favorably upon things like already having a visa, using an agent, having been in the country of interest before, and having the required certifications for a given country ahead of time when you're an immigrant. When we spoke with a consultant and asked if having a visa prior to job searching was necessary, they informed us that it's better to have the visa ahead of time, but if necessary, they would update any potential employers with the status of our visa application, and any other information employers may require.


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## MrsRose

What exactly is a "try-hard"?

I'm getting confused now, cause I've read much about the anti-american attitude of some New Zealanders, and that part of the stereotype is that Americans are so lazy and self-entitled. But now it's being suggested that you can't try too hard or that's seen in a poor light as well.


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## sillygumbo

Try- hard is someone who is showing off.

How did this topic get onto Tall Poppy Syndrome? and a lecture about how MrsRose shouldn't have TPS? I don't see that at all from MrsRose. I understand she is just using someone to help her with any questions and paperwork. It really is no biggie as long as she feels that person is helping her through the immigration process. That is all she was saying.
:focus:


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## topcat83

I agree with sillygumbo - what seems to be happening here is a 'ganging up' on American posters by a couple of people. 

My interpretation here? 

The only people I've come across in NZ who are prejudiced against Americans are the couple of people I mention above.

And I would like to remind people about Forum rule number 1 (which you will find in the header of every page)
_
'Expatforum.com is an interactive site. Please treat others here the way you wish to be treated, with respect, and without insult or personal attack. Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated. Trolling on this site is not tolerated, that being deliberately inflammatory posts, and trolls will be removed from the site immediately.'_


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## carosapien

Sorry if it came across that way MrsRose, that wasn't my intention. I wish you only the best for your immigration to New Zealand.


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## Weta

MrsRose said:


> Is it common in NZ, or just on this forum, to leap to so many judgments and generalizations about people you've never met? So because we're from the States we're automatically rich? And being from the states and therefore _must _be rich, we must also be they type who delights in "showing off" our wealth, it that it?


Firstly I apologise if my candid view of NZ offends you, I say it how I see it.

I am sorry you misread the situaton as being personal to you or perhaps you just don't get me. The attitude to perceived wealth is fairly generic, it goes with the teritory and we're all in the same darned boat in this respect. You need to appreciate that if you're British or American the meter starts ticking as soon as you open your mouth and they hear your accent, the premium goes up; kerching, kerching, kerching!! 

We call it the Pom Premium but I can assure you it will equally apply to you. I am Pom therefore people automatically assume I am loaded. It's very direct and people are not afraid to ask you questions about how much your house cost etc to fathom your worth in the world.


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## Weta

Weta said:


> I wouldn't be letting anyone here in NZ know how much spare cash you have committed to this move, they'll already view you as the rich Auntie coming from the US of A. They don't like tall poppies at the best of time and showing off about how much you have or how well you have done overseas is never going to win you any friends or influence people.


Lets backtrack here a little because I don't see really why this caused such a stir. :confused2: 

For heavens sake, I never accused anyone of having Tall Poppy Syndorme, I never said this was my opinion of Americans and certainly no ganging up on my part; merely pointing out that you need to be aware of it, be very aware of the messages you are giving out especially when trying to find a job here


Only in NZ would someone dare to tell me that I am a part of all that is wrong with the world, what with me being at the centre of the order of rich bourgoisie capitalist Poms.


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## carosapien

Weta said:


> Firstly I apologise if my candid view of NZ offends you, I say it how I see it.
> 
> I am sorry you misread the situaton as being personal to you or perhaps you just don't get me. The attitude to perceived wealth is fairly generic, it goes with the teritory and we're all in the same darned boat in this respect. You need to appreciate that if you're British or American the meter starts ticking as soon as you open your mouth and they hear your accent, the premium goes up; kerching, kerching, kerching!!
> 
> We call it the Pom Premium but I can assure you it will equally apply to you. I am Pom therefore people automatically assume I am loaded. It's very direct and people are not afraid to ask you questions about how much your house cost etc to fathom your worth in the world.


Ha hah!! yes I've experienced from the "Pom Premium" too it's amazing how people think you're loaded with cash just because of where you've come from.

But to be fair when we first come across most of us* are *loaded up with cash and in the market for cars, houses, white goods, household services, car hire etc. so perhaps the image is there for good reason?

The problem is that the image persists long after the reality of having the money has faded.


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## topcat83

Weta said:


> Firstly I apologise if my candid view of NZ offends you, I say it how I see it.
> 
> I am sorry you misread the situaton as being personal to you or perhaps you just don't get me. The attitude to perceived wealth is fairly generic, it goes with the teritory and we're all in the same darned boat in this respect. You need to appreciate that if you're British or American the meter starts ticking as soon as you open your mouth and they hear your accent, the premium goes up; kerching, kerching, kerching!!
> 
> We call it the Pom Premium but I can assure you it will equally apply to you. I am Pom therefore people automatically assume I am loaded. It's very direct and people are not afraid to ask you questions about how much your house cost etc to fathom your worth in the world.


I really have met a different group of people to you, Weta. I can think of no Kiwi who has been rude enough to ask me how much money I have, or what I can afford. They are far, far too polite. 

Are you living in the same country as me??


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## escapedtonz

topcat83 said:


> I really have met a different group of people to you, Weta. I can think of no Kiwi who has been rude enough to ask me how much money I have, or what I can afford. They are far, far too polite.
> 
> Are you living in the same country as me??


I agree wholeheartedly topcat83. 
Out of all the many kiwi's I've met in the short time I've been here - not one has even remotely mentioned anything to find out how much money I have or what I can afford. I have never once felt judged by anyone.
Wouldn't even think anyone would be remotely interested.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## Weta

topcat83 said:


> I really have met a different group of people to you, Weta. I can think of no Kiwi who has been rude enough to ask me how much money I have, or what I can afford. They are far, far too polite.
> 
> Are you living in the same country as me??


Oh, so it must be just an Auckland thing, where life is like a game of monopoly and how much cash and how many houses you have matters. 

I don't much care for the condescending remarks because my experience is different to yours. I am in contact with many hundreds of people per week, very few of them are polite and quite frankly most of them are anything but.


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## topcat83

Weta said:


> Oh, so it must be just an Auckland thing, where life is like a game of monopoly and how much cash and how many houses you have matters.
> 
> I don't much care for the condescending remarks because my experience is different to yours. I am in contact with many hundreds of people per week, very few of them are polite and quite frankly most of them are anything but.


I don't mean to be condescending - I am making a comment. The experiences you are describing I do not recognise. I try to be polite and respectful to people, and in return I find they are polite and respectful back. 
And as I have lived in Auckland until recently, and still work there, I don't think it's an Auckland thing either.


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## MrsRose

Weta said:


> Oh, so it must be just an Auckland thing, where life is like a game of monopoly and how much cash and how many houses you have matters.
> 
> I don't much care for the condescending remarks because my experience is different to yours. I am in contact with many hundreds of people per week, very few of them are polite and quite frankly most of them are anything but.


Maybe it's a "big city" thing. Or maybe it could depend on they type of people one interacts with, or the type of business one is in, etc, etc...

I recall living in Sacramento California, and the people in downtown area, for example, were so much less welcoming, and so busy and rude all the time. But just a few miles away in the suburbs, people were much more friendly. 

And the stereotypes can be found anywhere, among any people, I suppose. My husband and I took our honeymoon in the mountains on the east coast of the US, and when we told people we were from Arizona, they actually asked us if we wore cowboy hats there and rode horses still!  Seriously?! Lol! (I wanted to ask them if they still wore wigs and carried muskets.)


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## jawnbc

I see a handful of people adding tone to the conversation here that's not intended by the original poster.

So why don't you all take a bit step back, a deep breath or five, and try to interpret one another's postings in BEST possible light?

Arrogantly yours,

Gawd's gift to the online world.


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## carosapien

Weta said:


> Oh, so it must be just an Auckland thing, where life is like a game of monopoly and how much cash and how many houses you have matters.
> 
> I don't much care for the condescending remarks because my experience is different to yours. I am in contact with many hundreds of people per week, very few of them are polite and quite frankly most of them are anything but.


My last neighbour used to love bragging about all the investment properties he owned (all in south Auckland) and suggesting that because I was a POM I'd have loads of capital to invest in properties too. It put a whole new slant on keeping up with the Joneses I can tell you! 

When were getting quotes done for work on the our property I'd put on my best Kiwi accent and haggle. It was the only way to get things done at a reasonable cost and it was amazing how the prices came down when people thought we were locals.


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## madeelahmad

topcat83 said:


> I'm afraid that it was made very clear quite a few months ago by NZ Immigration that they were going to only offer most visas subject to a job offer, or subject to receiving a job offer within a certain time of arriving. And it doesn't matter how many points you have - them were the rules they set.
> 
> See the cut'n'paste from the NZ Immigration website (How do I apply?)
> 
> _'Our decision on your application
> 
> There are three possible outcomes:
> 
> 
> We grant you residence.
> We defer your application and offer you a temporary work visa so you can work while you get a skilled job offer. If you get skilled work, we will approve your residence application.
> We decline your application.'
> _
> They also review your application to make sure you can _prove_ the points that you are claiming.
> Obviously I don't know the details of your situation.
> But there is _never_ a guarantee of an immediate offer of permanent residency - regardless of the number of points you have.


Dear 
How much time it will take to get PR when a person coming on Temporary Visa get a Job offer from NZ employer.

Regards,
Adeel Ahmad


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## carosapien

madeelahmad said:


> Dear
> How much time it will take to get PR when a person coming on Temporary Visa get a Job offer from NZ employer.
> 
> Regards,
> Adeel Ahmad


Unfortunately there is no easy answer to that question, it depends on so many variables and what sort of work you're looking for and where. Some jobs are in hot demand whilst in some professions employers are struggling to recruit.

There were some jobs advertised at a rebuilt Christchurch supermarket last week, they had 1,200 applicants for 200 jobs. The former staff had all been made redundant.


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