# Is there anyone left in spain?



## henrietta

Firstly thankyou to all who replied with such honesty to my question yesterday,regarding a move to the Costa Del Sol.So many seem disatisfied & unhappy!,Is there anybody who is earning money? there must be businesses who have being succesful?.My inlaws moved to Ibiza at the ages of 48 & 47 didnt speak a word of Spanish & purchased a Scooter Hire Shop within 3months(Lots of competition on the Island from other business) but they worked hard and have survived!.I wonder how many people would really relocate back to the rat race of the U.K?,A COUNTRY WHERE 75% OF THE POPULATION ARE UNHAPPY!& thousands emigrate every year!I find sometimes when i speak to my inlaws in Ibiza & we discuss the cost of living in Spain they do not realise how expensive the U.K has become!..because they havent lived here for over 10 years!.Fuel bills are crippling and when they complain of the cold winter in Ibiza the u.k suffered months of snow sub zero temperatures and freezing rain!.Spain appears to have being hit hard by the recession,but have people become used to years of cheap,living and plentiful jobs,so much so that they are truly shocked to pay U.K prices for food etc?.Some towns in the U.K are no go areas..lots of town centres have empty shops..Sorry to sound miserable but its no ball game in the U.K.x


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## jojo

Come over for a fact finding trip! See what you think and then you can make an informed decision, you may find a niche in the market. But you need to find it. It worth remembering that very few people will sell a successful business without a very good reason, so its far better to find one thats yours! I'm sure with some careful planning and investigating you'll find something. But it wont be easy, cos the easy stuff's been done to death!

Jo xxx


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## henrietta

Thanks again Jo Jo, as you say we have to investigate further and we have the time to do that!.I wish that things were different for us all!,hopefully they will be again!.Not sure if everyone who wants to sell a business does it for the wrong reason,often people discover better or different ventures,perhaps retire?.Hope the sun is shining for you today its FREEZING here xx


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## mrypg9

Yes, loads of us left in Spain and happily so.
But I would hazard a guess that our numbers are chiefly composed of the retired of all ages, living on income adequate enough to withstand currency fluctuations, those self-employed in secure and thriving businesses and those who have secure, well-paid employment either here or in the UK.
As Jo suggests, you need to see for yourself.


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## jojo

I'm just sick of the damn rain here LOL I dont think its really stopped since mid December!!! But I'm still here! My husband commutes to the UK to work

Jo xxx


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## NorthernLass

Hi Henrietta

You do have a downer on the UK.

But really until you live here amongst the Spanish..you will see that they too have their fair share of problems.

The prices are just going up and up...to me it's more expensive here for food and clothes etc...property is so so expensive and many young people cannot get their own place and have to live at home till way into their 30s.

If you think things are difficult in the UK...come to Spain and see how the average spaniard lives..

I know both countries and can honestly tell you unless you have a fair amount of cash you'll not survive. No benefits or healthcare for many spanish..living on charity or begging. Very sad. 

Life is hard in both the UK and Spain but Spain is much worse. What you see in the Uk is not much different to here in Spain. Swings and roundabouts -

As for the weather...it's freezing and torrential rain today too.


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## jojo

I think Henrietta, you're a little bit blinded by your in laws. But you must remember that 10 years ago, many people came to Spain and found success easy cos it was still in its infancy. It was cheap, it was still using the pesata, everything was new and a major exciting tourist resort. But sadly times have moved on

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I think Henrietta, you're a little bit blinded by your in laws. But you must remember that 10 years ago, many people came to Spain and found success easy cos it was still in its infancy. It was cheap, it was still using the pesata, everything was new and a major exciting tourist resort. But sadly times have moved on
> 
> Jo xxx


I first came to Spain as a student over forty years ago!!! We drove down the coast from Rosas to Malaga then across country to Madrid and then up the Atlantic coast to the border.
I got arrested for alleged dangerous driving near Ciudad Real,kept in a locked room until we paid a fine of thousands of pesetas.
Alicante, Torrevieja, Benidorm....all were quite small and very Spanish. Tourism then was mainly confined to the Costa Brava. Marbella was beginning to take off...it was the Spanish riposte to San Tropez, with a Eurotrashy clique of the likes of Stewart Grainger, Prince Alfons von Hohenlowe and assorted hangers-on.
Spain was distinctly 'foreign' then. I remember nuns and priests wanting a lift would just stand by the roadside and wait. They didn't wait long! I saw a notice on a beach which stated the required coverage for male and female swimming attire, cm measurements given. There was an old man whose job it was to make sure no-one ignored these rules. I guess he was equipped with a tape measure. I visited an almost empty Alhambra, spent the day wandering around it. Now you queue for hours!
Spain certainly was 'cheap' in those days.
When I think back to that time I smile at people who bang on about the 'real' Spain. Those who've settled in the past ten years, say, haven't a clue....
Then, in the '80s, we used to spend the whole summer at a finca belonging to a friend in Santa Eulalia, Ibiza. Then it was a quiet place, loads of bohemian, eccentric types, but a newer, rowdier crowd was beginning to move in. But Spain was still 'cheap'.
Spain in 2010 is a totally different country. It has changed from being a poor, priest-ridden mainly rural country to the modern, comparatively rich nation it now is.
And somewhere during that time (on entry to the EU, perhaps?) Spain stopped being a nation of monkeys working for peanuts. Wages rose and as the standard of living rose so too did prices. 
Spain isn't cheap any more. Your standard of living in Spain will equal your standard in the UK, or not, if you haven't got a secure and ample income, from whatever source.


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## JBODEN

mrypg9 said:


> I first came to Spain ... over forty years ago!!!
> Alicante, Torrevieja, Benidorm....all were quite small and very Spanish. ... an almost empty Alhambra, ...


Oh the good old days when Marvella was just a fishing village.


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## mrypg9

JBODEN said:


> Oh the good old days when Marvella was just a fishing village.




and I was a mere slip of a girl....


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## jojo

You see, thats my point. Spain used to be behind the UK, so it was easy for Brits to come over and start things up and make make things better. That went on right up until about 5 years ago. Cos by then Spain had caught up. It became a member of the EU, it had its own wealth, its own entrepreneurs and was a successful holiday destination. People still came over and could still make money buying and selling properties, but then the bubble burst! The recession brought it tumbling down. Some people say that its probably hit rock bottom here now - who knows. But one things for sure there is a hell of a lot of unemployment and alot of people going bust. The social security system here isnt as "available" as it is in the UK and there are a lot of British folk going back simply because they have no money and no way of earning any.

But if it has hit rock bottom, then maybe things will pick up, but there are a lot of people here already, both Spanish and expats who will want to be first in the queue when they do!

However, on a posative note, if you have a really good business plan and you think you can make it work, then you must come and investigate the possibilities!

Jo xxx


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## Guest

jojo said:


> But if it has hit rock bottom, then maybe things will pick up, but there are a lot of people here already, both Spanish and expats who will want to be first in the queue when they do!


Perfectly put, the current climate has fortunately weeded out most of the chancers and those of us that can weather out this storm are going to be in a great position when things pick up again. There is a huge trust issue here at the moment which was brought about by all these people flooding over, starting up businesses without a clue what they doing and generally fleecing anyone that crossed their path. The people we're meeting here now generally seem to be hard working and trustworthy, I can't imagine it would be a good time to try and infiltrate that society


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> You see, thats my point. Spain used to be behind the UK, so it was easy for Brits to come over and start things up and make make things better. That went on right up until about 5 years ago. Cos by then Spain had caught up. It became a member of the EU, it had its own wealth, its own entrepreneurs and was a successful holiday destination. People still came over and could still make money buying and selling properties, but then the bubble burst! The recession brought it tumbling down. Some people say that its probably hit rock bottom here now - who knows. But one things for sure there is a hell of a lot of unemployment and alot of people going bust. The social security system here isnt as "available" as it is in the UK and there are a lot of British folk going back simply because they have no money and no way of earning any.
> 
> But if it has hit rock bottom, then maybe things will pick up, but there are a lot of people here already, both Spanish and expats who will want to be first in the queue when they do!
> 
> However, on a posative note, if you have a really good business plan and you think you can make it work, then you must come and investigate the possibilities!
> 
> Jo xxx


I think the property bubble burst because of the so-called laws of supply and demand. So many houses/apartment blocks were built, there was market saturation and prices were bound to fall. Just like tomatoes when there's a glut on the market, really.
I'm not so sure that the contribution of immigrants made things that much better for Spain. We've had this discussion on other threads and there is no evidence to show that the overall contribution has outweighed the downside - the social and economic costs of the burst property bubble will outweigh any benefits, I suspect. 
Many immigrants don't sign on the padron so localities lose out on revenue, many work on the black economy and most of us here aren't fabulously wealthy - just look at the number of posts from people wanting to come here who can afford only low rents and offer low-skilled jobs. Spain isn't Tuscany, the Dordogne or the Seychelles. The truly wealthy go elsewhere, on the whole. Maybe it's like the immigrant labour situation in the UK - instead of Poles etc. doing the jobs Brits don't want, Moroccans and Latinos do the jobs Spaniards won't do?
But there's no doubt that the majority of incomers have made happy, secure lives here in Spain. It all comes down to money, tho', like everything.


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## mrypg9

ShinyAndy said:


> . The people we're meeting here now generally seem to be hard working and trustworthy


I don't work hard -or at all, really -but you can trust me


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## fourgotospain

Hi Henrieta,

We are expat newbies, having moved in Jan and taken over a business 10 days later (not a timescale I would recommend!). 
We did 5 research trips to the area in 12 months to be sure of what we wanted, looked at tens of businesses to find the right business in the right area with the right potential. Then we bargained really hard and got a VERY persistent solicitor to go through everything. One thing in favour of buying an existing business is that a lot of the red tape is done, licences etc SHOULD be in place (hence the persistent lawyer). It's a case of finding one that you can mould to your ideas. We needed A LOT of 'settling' money - deposits and set-up fees for the house and the business and if the summer isn't a busy one we'll be in trouble, but that's the gamble of owning your own business! We work hard, and will work harder when everyone here is on holiday.

We have rented a house here and rented out our UK one as a 'worst case scenario' but also to ensure our mobility - the children are British and may very well wish to work there. Finally we thought long and hard about their prospects, both educationally and job wise long term, and have gone for a 'family business' that could involve them if they wished. 

We live in Javea which we love - it's not so much the sun but the colour (blue sky, purple bourgainvillea -sp?, white houses, green mountains) in contrast to the grey city UK, and having left so recently I can understand why you are down on it, and we never expected Spain to be cheaper, just different. But at the end of the day it all has to add up!

Hope this helps (although I suspect it doesn't!)
Rachel x


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## mrypg9

Keeping a property in the UK and renting is essential if you are intending to work here. I personally think that anyone considering retiring to Spain should also rent for a year first. Living in a foreign country is nothing like holidaying. You need to experience the nitty-gritty of everyday life, the boring bits as well as the exciting ones.
At the end of the day, as Jo always sensibly points out, you'll be doing most of the same mundane things -shopping, cooking, cleaning - as you did in the UK


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## fourgotospain

Oh and there is such nitty gritty!! SEVEN different departmental office visits just to compile the paperwork to get the kids in school and on the school bus! And it rains! And I lit the fire every night for three months - it was that cold (who knew!). And the kids have masses of homework - in spanish. And you still have to do the shopping, laundry, cooking as well as working and helping with all the aforementioned homework! And the bank is only open til 2pm, which I ALWAYS forget!
(still like it here though...)


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## mrypg9

fourgotospain said:


> Oh and there is such nitty gritty!! SEVEN different departmental office visits just to compile the paperwork to get the kids in school and on the school bus! And it rains! And I lit the fire every night for three months - it was that cold (who knew!). And the kids have masses of homework - in spanish. And you still have to do the shopping, laundry, cooking as well as working and helping with all the aforementioned homework! And the bank is only open til 2pm, which I ALWAYS forget!
> (still like it here though...)


What's not to like?
And does it rain indeed!!! I'm sure that it had stopped raining by the end of April last year and I don't recall it raining in earnest again until December 21st (I remember the date as I had just left the hairstylist and a deluge that lasted three weeks began. 
It was cold here too. We lit fires but won't again, although wood is cheap. Our salon has a very high salon and a minstrel's gallery thingy so heat floats upstairs.
Gas heater on the list for next year. At least we can wheel it to within a centimetre of our persons if needed.....
I find it more of a chore to do some kinds of housework here. Who wants to be indoors doing the ironing when it's 40C outside and the water in the pool is sparkling and cool(er)?
Our bank -Solbank -stays open later than yours. So there must be no set opening times?


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## henrietta

Hia Rachel!Thankyou for your reply..You truly deserve your business to be a success and with your hard work and determination i am sure that it will be,despite the economic climate.I am so pleased that you have found an established genuine business for sale,Could i ask were most of the businesses you viewed able to provide accounts etc that were not "cooked" pardon the phrase!?.As you did, we would ensure everything was checked thoroughly,and all licences were in place.Its so good to hear that someone has had the dream but has not being stupid and just packed their bags and hoped for the best!,we have two daughters and would never jeopordise their future on a whim!.I dont mean to be down on the U.K..BUT you have just left & will know exactly where i am coming from!.I would appreciate any advise you can give us..letting agents,solicitors etc..Well done to you all & please keep in touch xxx


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> I don't work hard -or at all, really -but you can trust me


 I meant in a business environment! Some of our best friends are total slackers like you too


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## natalieml

We are relocating to the Costa Del Sol In December but it has been a long time in the planning. We have waited about 8 years to get enough funds together to ensure we will have enough funds to make a decent go of life in Spain inh case our income drops.

I would suggest going over and spending time there as it is having a hard time too. Our business is based in the UK and will continue to operate in the UK even whenh we are in Spain.

Have you got enough money to support yourself if you don't find work that pays well enough?


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## mrypg9

ShinyAndy said:


> I meant in a business environment! Some of our best friends are total slackers like you too


I wish I'd known how to be a slacker earlier in life
Our trouble was that whilst in business we were too honest. ......if we'd been less generous to our employees and less scrupulously honest I'd be drinking Roederer Cristal tonight instead of Mercadona Cava...


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## mrypg9

natalieml said:


> We are relocating to the Costa Del Sol In December but it has been a long time in the planning. We have waited about 8 years to get enough funds together to ensure we will have enough funds to make a decent go of life in Spain inh case our income drops.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> That is the most sensible, practical, well-thought-out, realistic post I've read about people intending to relocate to Spain. (No offence intended to others). After such long -term, careful planning and financial prudence you deserve to succeed and I'm sure you will.
> Good luck - but people like you don't need to rely on luck so much as you clearly have common sense, patience and judgment.


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## fourgotospain

> I'd be drinking Roederer Cristal tonight instead of Mercadona Cava...


Ahhhh Cabre de Sabate???? Love the Brut myself.......


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## mrypg9

fourgotospain said:


> Ahhhh Cabre de Sabate???? Love the Brut myself.......


No, it's Bach Brut Nature,about 3 euros
I really love the bubbly, champagne, cava, vin mousseux ..... In Prague we used to drink Bohemia Sekt Brut, around £3.00. It was very good but there was a more expensive one (£5) which was superb.
At Christmas you could buy cases of 6 for under £15 so you could serve your guests 'real' champagne for the first drink or two then switch to the Bohemia. People were either too squiffy or too unknowledgeable (like me) to know the difference.
Next day they'd say what generous hosts we were..

Have you tried a white wine called Blanc Pescador? I think it's Catalan. It's slightly sparkling, very dry and lemony. Very refreshing and under four euros.


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## natalieml

Thanks hun 

We have an apartmjent in El Faro that we bought 5 years ago with friends so we have been over 5/6 times a year for the last 5 years with the kids so they are used to the area and know what they like doing and where they like to go. As I said this has been a long term plan for us and fingers crossed it will as go as well as you predict.

We cannot live in the apartment as it is too small and we rent it out sdo we have informed our friends that they can either buy us out or find someone else to come in for our share. This was not unexpected for them as everyone has known about our long term plans to relocate over there. To be honest the apartment is lovely it's just not realistic to keep a holiday home and the running expenses in the area your going to be living in.

Thanks again for your kind words x

QUOTE]

That is the most sensible, practical, well-thought-out, realistic post I've read about people intending to relocate to Spain. (No offence intended to others). After such long -term, careful planning and financial prudence you deserve to succeed and I'm sure you will.
Good luck - but people like you don't need to rely on luck so much as you clearly have common sense, patience and judgment.[/QUOTE]


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## Pesky Wesky

henrietta said:


> Firstly thankyou to all who replied with such honesty to my question yesterday,regarding a move to the Costa Del Sol.So many seem disatisfied & unhappy!,Is there anybody who is earning money? there must be businesses who have being succesful?.My inlaws moved to Ibiza at the ages of 48 & 47 didnt speak a word of Spanish & purchased a Scooter Hire Shop within 3months(Lots of competition on the Island from other business) but they worked hard and have survived!.I wonder how many people would really relocate back to the rat race of the U.K?,A COUNTRY WHERE 75% OF THE POPULATION ARE UNHAPPY!& thousands emigrate every year!I find sometimes when i speak to my inlaws in Ibiza & we discuss the cost of living in Spain they do not realise how expensive the U.K has become!..because they havent lived here for over 10 years!.Fuel bills are crippling and when they complain of the cold winter in Ibiza the u.k suffered months of snow sub zero temperatures and freezing rain!.Spain appears to have being hit hard by the recession,but have people become used to years of cheap,living and plentiful jobs,so much so that they are truly shocked to pay U.K prices for food etc?.Some towns in the U.K are no go areas..lots of town centres have empty shops..Sorry to sound miserable but its no ball game in the U.K.x


I think there are plenty of people left Henrietta. Where did you find all the people who are dissatified and unhappy? I don't think there are many on this forum. There are plenty of people who have been here for a while though, and know that living in Spain isn't the utopia some people think it is, and some people have written about problems they have encountered on various threads. 
You may have problems with cars, language, jobs, making friends, the food, the weather, schools, and culture in general . But I would say that's only to be expected really. Some immigrants don't seem to realise that they are coming to another country and you can't always do things the Brit Way, and some never learn that the Brit Way isn't always the best way to do things. 
The problems usually arise when people come out with unrealistic expectations and without finding out about stuff beforehand. The big advantages that you have are
1. That you have family already living in Spain
2. That you're prepared to wait.
Hope you enjoy putting your ambition into action!


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I wish I'd known how to be a slacker earlier in life
> Our trouble was that whilst in business we were too honest. ......if we'd been less generous to our employees and less scrupulously honest I'd be drinking Roederer Cristal tonight instead of Mercadona Cava...


Ah ha!
Mary the slacker
I have this vision of you wandering around the house in your dressing gown, dog growling by your side to keep away the unwanted, and a delicate champagne glass glued to your hand.
You must be happy!


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## natalieml

We love the Rose Cava 'Castellblanch' it's €2.75 in Eroski Supermarket - LOL

The Beringer pink fizz we drink here is £9 a bottle! Quite a difference.




mrypg9 said:


> No, it's Bach Brut Nature,about 3 euros
> I really love the bubbly, champagne, cava, vin mousseux ..... In Prague we used to drink Bohemia Sekt Brut, around £3.00. It was very good but there was a more expensive one (£5) which was superb.
> At Christmas you could buy cases of 6 for under £15 so you could serve your guests 'real' champagne for the first drink or two then switch to the Bohemia. People were either too squiffy or too unknowledgeable (like me) to know the difference.
> Next day they'd say what generous hosts we were..
> 
> Have you tried a white wine called Blanc Pescador? I think it's Catalan. It's slightly sparkling, very dry and lemony. Very refreshing and under four euros.


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## jojo

natalieml said:


> We love the Rose Cava 'Castellblanch' it's €2.75 in Eroski Supermarket - LOL
> 
> The Beringer pink fizz we drink here is £9 a bottle! Quite a difference.


There you go, booze is still cheaper here!! 

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

jojo said:


> There you go, booze is still cheaper here!!
> 
> Jo xxx


:spit: So at least we can still afford to drown our sorrows LOL


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## jockm

jojo said:


> There you go, booze is still cheaper here!!
> 
> Jo xxx


:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Guest

Tallulah said:


> :spit: So at least we can still afford to drown our sorrows LOL


I like the homemade crema de orujo that I've had in your neck of the woods....


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## Tallulah

halydia said:


> I like the homemade crema de orujo that I've had in your neck of the woods....


Yum - delicious isn't it?! Cannot drink the plain firewater though - my god, you can taste that stuff for days afterwards. Ever tried the guinda though? It's made with orujo, sugar, canela stick, cherries and coffee beans and left to mature for a few years (we've got some in our garage that is coming up for 4 years now and OH lovingly turns the bottles from time to time!!).


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## Guest

Tallulah said:


> Yum - delicious isn't it?! Cannot drink the plain firewater though - my god, you can taste that stuff for days afterwards. Ever tried the guinda though? It's made with orujo, sugar, canela stick, cherries and coffee beans and left to mature for a few years (we've got some in our garage that is coming up for 4 years now and OH lovingly turns the bottles from time to time!!).


I tried the firewater after Christmas last year - it sure helped cut the lump that five hours of eating left in my stomach. I appreciated the burn!

Guinda sounds good - Is that just a Galicia thing? I'll have to try it next time I'm there. 

Side note: I absolutely adore coming to Galicia. It's like being in Atlantic Canada, where I went to university. I really feel "at home" there - even though I hardly understand anyone


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## thrax

I have two weaknesses in life - alcohol, and alcohol, wine or spirits. And they are both horribly cheaper in Spain than the UK. Just as well my liver has been in training all those years....


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## natalieml

Yes and we drink so much more of it. LOL




jojo said:


> There you go, booze is still cheaper here!!
> 
> Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

So in reference to the thread title, those that are still in Spain are generally a bunch of old lushes then :spit:


Halydia - let us know if you're ever up our way hon and you fancy a meet up. Couple of glasses of orujo and you'll understand _everybody_.


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## jojo

Er....... apart from the very occasional glass of wine, I'd sooner have a nice cool glass of coke light! 

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy

Tallulah said:


> So in reference to the thread title, those that are still in Spain are generally a bunch of old lushes then


Somebody call?



Doggy


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## RagsToRich

You know it's interesting reading this thread and things about "having a downer on the UK"...

In 2008 I started to feel negatively towards the country and the way it was going. In 2009 I decided I was definately leaving. In December 2009 I planned a time scale. In Feb 2010 I decided on Spain and since then almost everything I've done has been centered around my leaving in September.

But... I've started to become very patriotic again (not in a waving the flag sense, more in a cultural sense), especially quite recently. Maybe it's the change of government (politics aside, I think this government is more competent than the previous one) or maybe it's that I'm leaving in just four months now... but I've really started to get back to grasp with a sense of Englishness. Probably more so than I've ever had before.

Kinda makes me a little sad to be honest.


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## Maddalena

mrypg9 said:


> I first came to Spain as a student over forty years ago!!! We drove down the coast from Rosas to Malaga then across country to Madrid and then up the Atlantic coast to the border.
> I got arrested for alleged dangerous driving near Ciudad Real,kept in a locked room until we paid a fine of thousands of pesetas.
> Alicante, Torrevieja, Benidorm....all were quite small and very Spanish. Tourism then was mainly confined to the Costa Brava. Marbella was beginning to take off...it was the Spanish riposte to San Tropez, with a Eurotrashy clique of the likes of Stewart Grainger, Prince Alfons von Hohenlowe and assorted hangers-on.
> Spain was distinctly 'foreign' then. I remember nuns and priests wanting a lift would just stand by the roadside and wait. They didn't wait long! I saw a notice on a beach which stated the required coverage for male and female swimming attire, cm measurements given. There was an old man whose job it was to make sure no-one ignored these rules. I guess he was equipped with a tape measure. I visited an almost empty Alhambra, spent the day wandering around it. Now you queue for hours!
> Spain certainly was 'cheap' in those days.
> When I think back to that time I smile at people who bang on about the 'real' Spain. Those who've settled in the past ten years, say, haven't a clue....
> Then, in the '80s, we used to spend the whole summer at a finca belonging to a friend in Santa Eulalia, Ibiza. Then it was a quiet place, loads of bohemian, eccentric types, but a newer, rowdier crowd was beginning to move in. But Spain was still 'cheap'.
> Spain in 2010 is a totally different country. It has changed from being a poor, priest-ridden mainly rural country to the modern, comparatively rich nation it now is.
> And somewhere during that time (on entry to the EU, perhaps?) Spain stopped being a nation of monkeys working for peanuts. Wages rose and as the standard of living rose so too did prices.
> Spain isn't cheap any more. Your standard of living in Spain will equal your standard in the UK, or not, if you haven't got a secure and ample income, from whatever source.


Yeah, the "good old days"!! I first fell in love with Spain in 1970, when my boyfriend talked me into renting an apartment in Tarifa!! There were in fact 3 apartment buildings, brand spanking new, and pretty much nothing else around the whole area other than the small traditional dwellings..now it's the "wind surfing capital of the WORLD"!!! UGH!! But times progress, those days are WAY over.

And times are bad economically. Of course, there are still businesses making a living, but they are not waiting for people with no skills and no Spanish to employ! They employ their family members and work hard to eke out a living.


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## jojo

RagsToRich said:


> You know it's interesting reading this thread and things about "having a downer on the UK"...
> 
> In 2008 I started to feel negatively towards the country and the way it was going. In 2009 I decided I was definately leaving. In December 2009 I planned a time scale. In Feb 2010 I decided on Spain and since then almost everything I've done has been centered around my leaving in September.
> 
> But... I've started to become very patriotic again (not in a waving the flag sense, more in a cultural sense), especially quite recently. Maybe it's the change of government (politics aside, I think this government is more competent than the previous one) or maybe it's that I'm leaving in just four months now... but I've really started to get back to grasp with a sense of Englishness. Probably more so than I've ever had before.
> 
> Kinda makes me a little sad to be honest.



Oddly enough and I never thought I'd say this, but I have realised that, inspite of everything, England is a very easy country to live in. If you fall, it will help pick you up, if you're unwell it will try to make you better, if you have legal or unjust problems, it will play pretty fair!? I wouldnt want to go back there, but I do see now that the "nanny" state is a very good safety net and they dont have one in Spain!

Jo xxx


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## Guest

..and look at the people that the nanny state is cultivating: people that expect everything on a plate, blame culture, zero respect, ambulance chasers. No thanks, I'd rather have a tough life that brings me up respecting money, people and society in general and not turn into some lazy thug that's looking for an easy way of life, thinking the world owes me something


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## jojo

ShinyAndy said:


> ..and look at the people that the nanny state is cultivating: people that expect everything on a plate, blame culture, zero respect, ambulance chasers. No thanks, I'd rather have a tough life that brings me up respecting money, people and society in general and not turn into some lazy thug that's looking for an easy way of life, thinking the world owes me something


Oh I agree! What started off as a wonderful idea has been exploited to the point of stupidity! I know of three generations of a family who've never worked EVER! and they seem to have sooooo many children who are all growing up with one ambition - to go on the dole, have babies and get housed by the council! And thats just one family of millions in the UK! Those are the people who should be brought to task! Their money should be cut severely!

Jo xxx


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## RagsToRich

jojo said:


> Oddly enough and I never thought I'd say this, but I have realised that, inspite of everything, England is a very easy country to live in. If you fall, it will help pick you up, if you're unwell it will try to make you better, if you have legal or unjust problems, it will play pretty fair!? I wouldnt want to go back there, but I do see now that the "nanny" state is a very good safety net and they dont have one in Spain!
> 
> Jo xxx


To be honest Jo, the support I'd get from my friends would far outweigh whatever the state could do for me (apart from medical emergencies).

Also you have to think... do you really want a place to be easy to live in for all your life? 

I don't know, I kind of like the idea of being up against it a little bit. I suppose this is part of what this is about for me. I'm 27, I aint ever going to be 27 again. 

Last year I thought... I could settle with my girlfriend, get a house, and lead a stress-free life in Sheffield for the next 50 years if I wanted to - as in I actually thought - "Yeah, I have the choice to do this if I want and probably live a pretty much guarenteed easy life.. maybe have kids... and that'll be that..."

But you know sometimes you get the urge to challenge yourself. 

Guess I just crave adventure at the end of the day.

Andy -

Totally agree about the "expecting everything on a plate." My political beliefs have shifted wildly over the last 5 years. We have seen it in practice now - support from the state does not work for the country as a whole or for the individuals involved in it. 

A lot of people in the UK have a lot of painful "waking up" to do over the next few years and it's going to hurt them hard.


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## fourgotospain

Whenever we live abroad I find myself very nostalgic and very british and proud of my heritage. It's just being in the actual country that brings me down!!!!


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## jojo

RagsToRich said:


> A lot of people in the UK have a lot of painful "waking up" to do over the next few years and it's going to hurt them hard.


Sadly I suspect the waking up will be done to those hard working and honest individuals who struggle to make a nice life for themselves and their families. Those who've never done a days work in their lives will carry on as normal cos they always do! BTW, I'm not talking about those who've hit hard times and are claiming dole money while they pick themselves up or those who genuinely cant work. I mean those who have been signing on since they left school without a care to work - its those people who contribute nothing and seem to suffer nothing when things get tough for everyone else. Its not right and its not easily solvable!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

ShinyAndy said:


> ..and look at the people that the nanny state is cultivating: people that expect everything on a plate, blame culture, zero respect, ambulance chasers. No thanks, I'd rather have a tough life that brings me up respecting money, people and society in general and not turn into some lazy thug that's looking for an easy way of life, thinking the world owes me something


I agree about the welfare state encouraging idleness and lack of enterprise -although ironically, the growth of the underclass began in the Thatcher years. As Jo says, there are generations of welfare kings and queens. 
But some of the things you mention above have been encouraged by the enterprise culture!! The media itself, particularly tv, has encouraged vulgarity, lack of respect, selfishness and ambulance chasers. Everything panders to the lowest common denominator.
The lowering of standards in education has contributed to this to, imo.


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## gus-lopez

Why do they not tax benefits ? especially for the long term unemployed . Why is it acceptable that you can have two families in adjoining houses , one working on a low wage & expected to pay their c/ tax in full ,out of taxed income, while the unemployed next door get it free ? Am I missing something or too intelligent to make the rules ?
The Institute for Fiscal Studies said recently that a person taking a job on less than 15K a year would be worse off & should remain on benefits. What does that say to people who work for less ? The whole system is a shambles, you should vote for me , I'll reduce the 200 billion overspend by 75% instantly, no benefits from next monday morning ! Anyway back to topic, I'm still here.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Why do they not tax benefits ? especially for the long term unemployed . Why is it acceptable that you can have two families in adjoining houses , one working on a low wage & expected to pay their c/ tax in full ,out of taxed income, while the unemployed next door get it free ? Am I missing something or too intelligent to make the rules ?
> The Institute for Fiscal Studies said recently that a person taking a job on less than 15K a year would be worse off & should remain on benefits. What does that say to people who work for less ? The whole system is a shambles, you should vote for me , I'll reduce the 200 billion overspend by 75% instantly, no benefits from next monday morning ! Anyway back to topic, I'm still here.


This is an interesting subject. I see that Ian Duncan Smith is at Work and Pensions and he has been spending the past couple of years studying the issue of the long-term unemployed and welfare generally.
The problem seems to me to be twofold: 1) it's very hard to live in the UK on £15k or less a year without some subsidy or other and 2) some small businesses can't afford to pay workers a higher wage, especially in low wage areas outside big cities.. 
You could also be cynical and say that some people just don't put in £5k amount of effort to their work, let alone £15k's worth. I heard an employer of seasonal agricultural labour on tv recently saying he preferred to hire Poles, Latvians etc. as they worked harder and were more reliable than Brits. He could of course pay them lower wages than Brits as they were mainly young, unmarried, sharing accommodation and only in the UK for a short time.
There has to be a way of bridging that gap. Considering the amount Whitehall Senior Civil Servants, whose job it is to find solutions to these problems, are paid, and the fact that IDS seems to be taking the issue very seriously, there may be some progress.
It drives me almost insane to think that after both of us working hard, investing, taking risks in business etc. we are receiving a piddling return on capital, losing a third in devalued sterling and people are getting housing benefit to live in posh areas (although I did read that in The Daily Mail ) and all the other benefits when they are able-bodied and could do some useful work.
When I was a kid there were park-keepers, concierges in council flats, bus conductors etc., people who helped keep down anti-social behaviour and vandalism. What happenede to them? There are loads of jobs that need doing....


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ah ha!
> Mary the slacker
> I have this vision of you wandering around the house in your dressing gown, dog growling by your side to keep away the unwanted, and a delicate champagne glass glued to your hand.
> You must be happy!



Yeah, I'm a happy soul, generally. 
But I don't do the dressing gown thing and Our Little Azor only growls at me when I kick him off our bed.
I don't know how to upload photos to the threads but I've posted a photo of me in slacker mode and uniform in my album...no glass in hand, tho.
And since you mention delicate champagne glasses - I was given a set of six really lovely Dartington crystal champagne flutes and I've broken every single one of the b*****s. I have to drink my bubbly from an enamel mug


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Yeah, I'm a happy soul, generally.
> But I don't do the dressing gown thing and Our Little Azor only growls at me when I kick him off our bed.
> I don't know how to upload photos to the threads but I've posted a photo of me in slacker mode and uniform in my album...no glass in hand, tho.
> And since you mention delicate champagne glasses - I was given a set of six really lovely Dartington crystal champagne flutes and I've broken every single one of the b*****s. I have to drink my bubbly from an enamel mug


Photo please!!

The photo in the album shows some serious slacking. Well done!!


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## natalieml

Well said! Couldn'r agree more :clap2:




ShinyAndy said:


> ..and look at the people that the nanny state is cultivating: people that expect everything on a plate, blame culture, zero respect, ambulance chasers. No thanks, I'd rather have a tough life that brings me up respecting money, people and society in general and not turn into some lazy thug that's looking for an easy way of life, thinking the world owes me something


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## mrypg9

natalieml said:


> Well said! Couldn'r agree more :clap2:



Yes but.....
You can't blame the nanny state for lads' mags, stupid and crude tv programmes, violent computer games, the general dumbing down of culture, lawyers who set themselves up as ambulance chasers etc. etc. tho'.
I think the blame should be equally shared.
The rise in numbers of single parents claiming benefit and benefit claimants generally in the '80s and early '90s is truly staggering. You can see the figures in the House of Commons library. Once that kind of lifestyle becomes so widespread, it's seen as normal.
Being of working age and not doing something which contributes to society is imo bad for the individual in many ways.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Being of working age and not doing something which contributes to society is imo bad for the individual in many ways.


What is making this scenario worse is that its these people who are having lots of children, either by choice or lifestyle. The more professional people tend to not have so many, partly due to their concern about financial stablity and partly because they enjoy their life and work. So you then move down to the next generation or two and eventually what happens, and is starting to happen now, is that you have fewer working to pay for more who actually dont know or understand how to work or get into the system - even if they did want to and dont forget, these people have a vote and will vote in their own favour. 

IMO, its no good people like me complaining about it or to allow it to continue for the long term. Some changes need to be made and starting in schools and home lives, but it'll be a mammoth task and will need more than just a few "do gooders"

Jo xxx


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## natalieml

Yes you would think being of working age and not doing something is bad for the individual but plenty see this as an easy way out. I agree with Andy they think the world owes them something.

My cousin is 37 and apart from the odd bit of temping in her 20's has never really worked. When she was 8 months pregnant she was sleeping on a double mattress on the floor waiting for the bed her inlaws had bought to arrive as they couldn't afford one themselves. She then tells me she pities me as I have to work where her husband can afford to keep her at home! She is sleeping on the floor and pities me when I have homes in England, Ireland and Spain (all of which have beds). The difference is that we have worked hard for everything we have and will continue to work hard to maintain what we have. 

She doesn't like hearing that actually her husband cannot afford to keep her at home which is why they are claiming benefits that yours truly here is funding. So actually Yes maybe she has a point for pitying me but not for the reasons she thinks.

The reality is that she is lazy and doesn't want to work. It's just too easy for her not to work.

Anyway rant over - sorry xx 








mrypg9 said:


> Yes but.....
> You can't blame the nanny state for lads' mags, stupid and crude tv programmes, violent computer games, the general dumbing down of culture, lawyers who set themselves up as ambulance chasers etc. etc. tho'.
> I think the blame should be equally shared.
> The rise in numbers of single parents claiming benefit and benefit claimants generally in the '80s and early '90s is truly staggering. You can see the figures in the House of Commons library. Once that kind of lifestyle becomes so widespread, it's seen as normal.
> Being of working age and not doing something which contributes to society is imo bad for the individual in many ways.


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## natalieml

Well said Jo - but nothing will change. Everything here is crazy.

If your Polish move to the UK you can claim child benefit for your children that live wit your wife in Poland. Hell we wil even put the funds in your Polish bank account. Some of these children have never even set foot on British soil!

If like us you've worked all your life since you qualified and relocate to Spain your no longer entitled to child benefit. 

Where is the fairness in that? 




jojo said:


> What is making this scenario worse is that its these people who are having lots of children, either by choice or lifestyle. The more professional people tend to not have so many, partly due to their concern about financial stablity and partly because they enjoy their life and work. So you then move down to the next generation or two and eventually what happens, and is starting to happen now, is that you have fewer working to pay for more who actually dont know or understand how to work or get into the system - even if they did want to and dont forget, these people have a vote and will vote in their own favour.
> 
> IMO, its no good people like me complaining about it or to allow it to continue for the long term. Some changes need to be made and starting in schools and home lives, but it'll be a mammoth task and will need more than just a few "do gooders"
> 
> Jo xxx


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## JBODEN

natalieml said:


> If your Polish move to the UK you can claim child benefit for your children that live wit your wife in Poland. Hell we wil even put the funds in your Polish bank account. Some of these children have never even set foot on British soil!


Are you sure? There I was working in Poland (UK citizen with Polish wife) and there was no way I could get child benefits for my kids. 
But I agree that Eastern Europeans coming to the UK seem to know more about our welfare system than we do, and they know how to milk it to the maximum!


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## jojo

natalieml said:


> Well said Jo - but nothing will change. Everything here is crazy.
> 
> If your Polish move to the UK you can claim child benefit for your children that live wit your wife in Poland. Hell we wil even put the funds in your Polish bank account. Some of these children have never even set foot on British soil!
> 
> If like us you've worked all your life since you qualified and relocate to Spain your no longer entitled to child benefit.
> 
> Where is the fairness in that?


Its wrong, but actually its cos the UK are softer than the other members of the EU.

Legally as an EU citizen once you start to work in any other EU country and pay into their system, you are entitled to their SS - however, the UKs SS is by far more generous than the others, altho it should be the same across the board! So once you're living in Spain and paying into the Spanish system, you can claim spanish child allowance - accept there isnt any worth having.

Because my husband spends less than 183 days a year in Spain, he's lucky enough (???) to still be able to pay his tax and NI in the UK so he's still eligible to claim our child allowance.

But where the UK and its soft approach is heading, who knows. Those who work hard have the burden of the long term unemployed around their necks and it can only get worse - I cant see how that can change, without a massive civil war or rebellion of some sort? 

Jo xxx


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## natalieml

Hmmm this is interesting Jo. Our business is UK registered and will continue to operate in the UK as we have a sales force that will remain in the UK. We will still have UK salaries, pay NI and tax and will still make NI contributions for our staff. The only difference is that our country of residence will be Spain. We will rent out our house in the UK so cannot use that address.

Therefore are we entitled to ongoing healthcare E106 ?? Child benefit etc... ?

I wonder who I should ask?




jojo said:


> Its wrong, but actually its cos the UK are softer than the other members of the EU.
> 
> Legally as an EU citizen once you start to work in any other EU country and pay into their system, you are entitled to their SS - however, the UKs SS is by far more generous than the others, altho it should be the same across the board! So once you're living in Spain and paying into the Spanish system, you can claim spanish child allowance - accept there isnt any worth having.
> 
> Because my husband spends less than 183 days a year in Spain, he's lucky enough (???) to still be able to pay his tax and NI in the UK so he's still eligible to claim our child allowance.
> 
> But where the UK and its soft approach is heading, who knows. Those who work hard have the burden of the long term unemployed around their necks and it can only get worse - I cant see how that can change, without a massive civil war or rebellion of some sort?
> 
> Jo xxx


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## natalieml

That's because you were in Poland! If you were in the UK and your wife and kids were in Poland you would have been able to claim. Grrrrrrr.

I also agree that Eastern Europeans coming to the UK seem to know more about our welfare system than we do but it's not just the eastern Europeans it's everyone.



JBODEN said:


> Are you sure? There I was working in Poland (UK citizen with Polish wife) and there was no way I could get child benefits for my kids.
> But !


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## jojo

natalieml said:


> Hmmm this is interesting Jo. Our business is UK registered and will continue to operate in the UK as we have a sales force that will remain in the UK. We will still have UK salaries, pay NI and tax and will still make NI contributions for our staff. The only difference is that our country of residence will be Spain. We will rent out our house in the UK so cannot use that address.
> 
> Therefore are we entitled to ongoing healthcare E106 ?? Child benefit etc... ?
> 
> I wonder who I should ask?


You will have to fill out a tax form in Spain declaring your income and as a Spanish resident, this is where you should pay your taxes.

Maybe start a new post? or have a search thru some of the older post here, its been discussed before. But I know my OH can only do what he does legally cos he spends more than 6 months pa in the UK

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

The rot set in imo when Thatcher' withdrewstate subsidies from uneconomic industries (correct) but had to put the money from North Sea oil revenues into paying welfare/unemployment benefits to the record millions of unemployed the withdrawal of subsidy led to instead of investing it in new industries and technologies.(big mistake).
I worked with families where grandparents, parents and children of working age were all on benefits. A benefit culture has grown that's going to be hard to shift.
We really ought to stop talking about 'the poor' and start saying what we mean by 'poverty'. No-one starves in the UK and most of the 'poor' people I knew when I worked in education all had huge tvs, cars, fake designer clothes etc. and their kids had BMX bikes, Game Boys etc.
I'll never forget the time when I was Acting Head of a school and I went round the classes doing the 'birthday' rounds. I asked a five-year-old what his mummy had given him for his birthday. 'A stereo', he replied. I could have cried....his teacher said he had never held a pencil or crayon.....
I am poorer than Victoria Beckham but richer than the woman who used to be our cleaner. It's all relative.
We shouldn't forget though that not everyone on benefits is a lazy idle scrounger.


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## natalieml

We were told by our accountant that Spain and the UK havea dual taxation agreement so as long a swe still pay our taxes then it doesn't matter which country we pay in.

Will def look into it before we move over.



jojo said:


> You will have to fill out a tax form in Spain declaring your income and as a Spanish resident, this is where you should pay your taxes.
> 
> Maybe start a new post? or have a search thru some of the older post here, its been discussed before. But I know my OH can only do what he does legally cos he spends more than 6 months pa in the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

There are some benefits which are EU wide but Child Benefit is not one of them.
And don't forget, with all this swiping at Poles etc. that no-one is entitled to any UK benefits until they have accumulated sufficient NI contributions.
Mrs T. should have considered the impact of mass immigration when she signed the Single European Act in 1987 and then encouraged the former Soviet bloc countries to join the EU after 1989.
Mind you, the SEA made it easier for us to relocate to Spain.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> We shouldn't forget though that not everyone on benefits is a lazy idle scrounger.


I agree, and we shouldnt forget that now we're moving down the generations, some actually dont know nor do they understand how to work, pay into the system, to buy a house ........ Its not that they dont necessarily want to, they've not seen it! 

The system is great to save folk when they fall, it gives them a chance to pick themselves back up again and in some cases they're not able to. But there is now a rather too strong benefit culture that has to be rectified - its bleeding the country dry!
Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

natalieml said:


> We were told by our accountant that Spain and the UK havea dual taxation agreement so as long a swe still pay our taxes then it doesn't matter which country we pay in.
> 
> Will def look into it before we move over.


That Agreement only applies to certain types of income. Get your accountant or fund manager to check it out.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I agree, and we shouldnt forget that now we're moving down the generations, some actually dont know nor do they understand how to work, pay into the system, to buy a house ........ Its not that they dont necessarily want to, they've not seen it!
> 
> The system is great to save folk when they fall, it gives them a chance to pick themselves back up again and in some cases they're not able to. But there is now a rather too strong benefit culture that has to be rectified - its bleeding the country dry!
> Jo xxx


Big problem tho' is the NEETs. What do you do when you have so many totally unskilled young people?
We had four apprentices at one time - we were though the only company in our area which offered that kind of on-the-job training which lead to a skill-based paper qualification to go with actual experience.
I think schools aren't doing enough to prepare youngsters for the world of work - telling them about basics like dressing appropriately, having the right attitude in interviews, being punctual...we've had interviwees who were clueless about how to behave and make a good impression.
Another big problem is that in some areas there just aren't enough jobs. Technology has done away with the need for many unskilled occupations. I once visited a Company where introduction of new technology had made two-thirds of the workforce redundant.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Big problem tho' is the NEETs. What do you do when you have so many totally unskilled young people?
> We had four apprentices at one time - we were though the only company in our area which offered that kind of on-the-job training which lead to a skill-based paper qualification to go with actual experience.
> I think schools aren't doing enough to prepare youngsters for the world of work - telling them about basics like dressing appropriately, having the right attitude in interviews, being punctual...we've had interviwees who were clueless about how to behave and make a good impression.
> Another big problem is that in some areas there just aren't enough jobs. Technology has done away with the need for many unskilled occupations. I once visited a Company where introduction of new technology had made two-thirds of the workforce redundant.


It makes you wonder why Cameron, Brown and Clegg actually wanted to be prime ministers at all??? you'd have thought they'd run a mile at the prospect 

jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> It makes you wonder why Cameron, Brown and Clegg actually wanted to be prime ministers at all??? you'd have thought they'd run a mile at the prospect
> 
> jo xxx


I've often thought that! When I was active in politics I was happy to fight elections I knew I'd lose and wasn't interested in 'safe' seats. I had enough to cope with being a Councillor!!!!!
BTW...this is Spain...WHERE'S THE SUN????? It's chilly  Son and dil are hoping to soak up the heat...hah hah Should have gone to Bournemouth


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> BTW...this is Spain...WHERE'S THE SUN????? It's chilly  Son and dil are hoping to soak up the heat...hah hah Should have gone to Bournemouth


I'm Sitting here is a sweat shirt and jeans and I'm really cold. I keep going outside to see if its any warmer out there, but its pretty cloudy and theres a really cold wind! 

I think we should keep the politics on that election thread, not here - its getting confusing :focus::focus:

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I'm Sitting here is a sweat shirt and jeans and I'm really cold. I keep going outside to see if its any warmer out there, but its pretty cloudy and theres a really cold wind!
> 
> I think we should keep the politics on that election thread, not here - its getting confusing :focus::focus:
> 
> Jo xxxx


I'm about to put on some kind of jacket over my polo shirt. 
Yes, we should be more attentive to thread titles. We have had some really interesting discussions lately. They've given me something to do while the weather's been so disappointing for _*those of us left in Spain.*_
How's that for turning back to thread topic!


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> I'm Sitting here is a sweat shirt and jeans and I'm really cold. I keep going outside to see if its any warmer out there, but its pretty cloudy and theres a really cold wind!
> 
> I think we should keep the politics on that election thread, not here - its getting confusing :focus::focus:
> 
> Jo xxxx


I just dug out some trackies & a jumper too

just about to pull on the woolly socks



& I'm still in Spain:focus:


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## JBODEN

natalieml said:


> I also agree that Eastern Europeans coming to the UK seem to know more about our welfare system than we do but it's not just the eastern Europeans it's everyone.


They had good teachers! When I went to Poland in 1990 I was invited to the British Embassy where the expats had a club. I met a large number of arrogant Brits who had come to Poland funded by the 'Know How Fund' (funded by the UK). It seemed to me that all they were interested in was miliking this fund for all it was worth and not doing a much work.


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## mrypg9

JBODEN said:


> They had good teachers! When I went to Poland in 1990 I was invited to the British Embassy where the expats had a club. I met a large number of arrogant Brits who had come to Poland funded by the 'Know How Fund' (funded by the UK). It seemed to me that all they were interested in was miliking this fund for all it was worth and not doing a much work.


I remember the 'Know How Fund' from Prague. Too little money, too many wet-behind-the-ears so-called 'experts' and entrepreneurs.
Pathetic....

(Sorry, Jo..off topic again, couldn't resist)


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Big problem tho' is the NEETs. .


Who are the NEETs? (Sure you don't mean the nits??!!)

PS Not cool weather here today, but winter weather! Vest and long sleeves + central heating. Saw a car with snow on it this morning; must have come from further up, fom Navacerrada or cercedilla ...


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Who are the NEETs? (Sure you don't mean the nits??!!)
> 
> PS Not cool weather here today, but winter weather! Vest and long sleeves + central heating. Saw a car with snow on it this morning; must have come from further up, fom Navacerrada or cercedilla ...


NEETS = Not in Education, Employment or Training. Isn't it 'nenes' in Spanish?


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> NEETS = Not in Education, Employment or Training. Isn't it 'nenes' in Spanish?


Thanks
I suppose it could be nenes...


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks
> I suppose it could be nenes...


the NINIs

ni trabajan ni estudian


and yes - the nits are a problem too


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> the NINIs
> 
> ni trabajan ni estudian
> 
> 
> and yes - the nits are a problem too


Aren't they just. They do seem to grow out of it though...

Natalie


> Hmmm this is interesting Jo. Our business is UK registered and will continue to operate in the UK as we have a sales force that will remain in the UK. We will still have UK salaries, pay NI and tax and will still make NI contributions for our staff. The only difference is that our country of residence will be Spain. We will rent out our house in the UK so cannot use that address.
> 
> Therefore are we entitled to ongoing healthcare E106 ?? Child benefit etc... ?
> 
> I wonder who I should ask?


I think you should ask the dwp directly. Most of the info is on their website. There's something here, but i don't know if it's very useful...
Britons living abroad : Directgov


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## gus-lopez

natalieml said:


> We were told by our accountant that Spain and the UK havea dual taxation agreement so as long a swe still pay our taxes then it doesn't matter which country we pay in.
> 
> Will def look into it before we move over.


Yes they have a dual agrement but because you will be living here for more than 183 days a year, you will have to file a tax return to the Spanish authorities which will take in to account the tax paid in the UK. You'll probably find also that you'll have to pay the hacienda here some tax as the allowances are lower here & tax rates higher.
You might be covered by the E-109 as you pay tax & ni in the UK but I don't know if one of you would have to be there for more than 6 months, probably I think.
If you live here & pay Tax & NI in Uk it would appear you wont be covered for h/care, it's all wrong Imho, a way round that depending on how much private cover is for a family with children is to register as autonomo ( self- employed ) & pay the 250€'s a month which ill cover all the family. Plus you'd have to pay an assesoria 20+€'s a month to do the non-existent bookwork & iva. :lol:


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## Stravinsky

natalieml said:


> We were told by our accountant that Spain and the UK havea dual taxation agreement so as long a swe still pay our taxes then it doesn't matter which country we pay in.
> 
> Will def look into it before we move over.


Dual taxation agreement though doesnt mean what you think it does, as has been mentioned.

Firstly, if you are a Spanish resident and you live in Spain then normally you will be expected to pay your taxes here on worldwide income. Usually when you change residency to Spain you lose all entitlement to UK health care as well, so you need to check that under your circumstances this doesnt happen.

Secondly, as mentioned, tax can be higher here, and the allowances different .... therefore you may well be liable to extra taxes in Spain.

You probably need to speak to an expert in Spanish tax systems, rather than a UK accountant.


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Dual taxation agreement though doesnt mean what you think it does, as has been mentioned.
> 
> Firstly, if you are a Spanish resident and you live in Spain then normally you will be expected to pay your taxes here on worldwide income. Usually when you change residency to Spain you lose all entitlement to UK health care as well, so you need to check that under your circumstances this doesnt happen.
> 
> Secondly, as mentioned, tax can be higher here, and the allowances different .... therefore you may well be liable to extra taxes in Spain.
> 
> You probably need to speak to an expert in Spanish tax systems, rather than a UK accountant.


Some of our income is subject to the DT agreement, some not. It would be better to consult a Spanish expert - we leave it to our gestor, just take the documents, drop them on his desk and let him/her get on with it!


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Some of our income is subject to the DT agreement, some not. It would be better to consult a Spanish expert - we leave it to our gestor, just take the documents, drop them on his desk and let him/her get on with it!


Well yes, it is well proved by past professional input, Spanish tax experts, and a Spanish accountant that in a general sense if the OP is a Spanish resident then all their worldwide income is subject to taxation in Spain. That may mean that you pay some tax in the UK if you choose to, but that doesn't mean that you are still not subject to additional tax on that income in Spain. Government pensions are taxable only in the UK, although arguably you should still declare them on a Spanish tax form, although pointless. However I would assume this doesn't apply to you, hence why I didn't mention it.

This is a slightly different situation however and although I am fairly confident I know the answer because I already run a UK based company myself and have taken professional advice, I again suggest you speak to a Spanish tax advisor ..... not all British tax advisors are experts in Spanish tax law.


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Well yes, it is well proved by past professional input, Spanish tax experts, and a Spanish accountant that in a general sense if the OP is a Spanish resident then all their worldwide income is subject to taxation in Spain. That may mean that you pay some tax in the UK if you choose to, but that doesn't mean that you are still not subject to additional tax on that income in Spain. Government pensions are taxable only in the UK, although arguably you should still declare them on a Spanish tax form, although pointless. However I would assume this doesn't apply to you, hence why I didn't mention it.
> 
> This is a slightly different situation however and although I am fairly confident I know the answer because I already run a UK based company myself and have taken professional advice, I again suggest you speak to a Spanish tax advisor ..... not all British tax advisors are experts in Spanish tax law.



I think this was meant for the OP - I know nothing about tax (other than that I pay it) -and our UK financial bods sort out what is needed as well as our Spanish 'experts'.


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> I think this was meant for the OP - I know nothing about tax (other than that I pay it) -and our UK financial bods sort out what is needed as well as our Spanish 'experts'.


Good move


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Good move


Downside is.....I don't know enough to be sure the 'experts' are getting it right!!!


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## dunmovin

mrypg9 said:


> Downside is.....I don't know enough to be sure the 'experts' are getting it right!!!



that I can totally agree with. we had an FA that advised buying more Halix share just before they became less valuable than used toilet paper. Fortunately we didn't buy into the idea


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## natalieml

Thanks for all your comments - I agree we will need to seek advice when we get there.

I agree with mrypg9 (soz don't know your name) above that I wouldn't know if I was being good advice by a Spanish getor or if I was being told a pack of lies!

With regards to healthcare to have fully comprehensive private medical and dental cover is €197 euros a month so I wouldn't bother registering as self employed and pay €250 month plus €20 a month for non existent paperwork.

There is certainly lots to think about.


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## dunmovin

natalieml said:


> Thanks for all your comments - I agree we will need to seek advice when we get there.
> 
> I agree with mrypg9 (soz don't know your name) above that I wouldn't know if I was being good advice by a Spanish getor or if I was being told a pack of lies!
> 
> With regards to healthcare to have fully comprehensive private medical and dental cover is €197 euros a month so I wouldn't bother registering as self employed and pay €250 month plus €20 a month for non existent paperwork.
> 
> There is certainly lots to think about.


Natalie, you have done your research well,the only thing I would add is that you should set aside some cash that will allow you to finance the trip back home if the venture doesn't work out, then forget about it until you need it or ten years down the line

willie


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## natalieml

Hi Willie,

Thanks for your kind words. At the moment it all seems so daunting but also very exciting as this has been a long term plan for us (7 years in the planning). 

We wil come over with enough cash to come back to the UK if we need to although I'm hoping the move will be permanent 

We booked our one way ticket yesterday for December. Now it's starting to feel more real!

Natalie




dunmovin said:


> Natalie, you have done your research well,the only thing I would add is that you should set aside some cash that will allow you to finance the trip back home if the venture doesn't work out, then forget about it until you need it or ten years down the line
> 
> willie


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## Stravinsky

natalieml said:


> Thanks for all your comments - I agree we will need to seek advice when we get there.
> 
> I agree with mrypg9 (soz don't know your name) above that I wouldn't know if I was being good advice by a Spanish getor or if I was being told a pack of lies!
> 
> With regards to healthcare to have fully comprehensive private medical and dental cover is €197 euros a month so I wouldn't bother registering as self employed and pay €250 month plus €20 a month for non existent paperwork.
> 
> There is certainly lots to think about.


That sounds an awful lot, unless there are circumstances that cause it. Health care for couple in their mid fifties over here is around €12-1300 a year with someone like Sanitas

You need a tax gestor and preferably one who is recommended. We searched around quite a lot when we came over and have recommended ours to several couples who have been very happy


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## natalieml

There are 4 of us - 2 adults and 2 children covered on the policy so that's probably why it seems on the high side to you. Sanitas quote was €400 per month to cover us. Bah!

I would like the details of yout tax gestor if that's OK? I woudl much rather go on recommendation.






Stravinsky said:


> That sounds an awful lot, unless there are circumstances that cause it. Health care for couple in their mid fifties over here is around €12-1300 a year with someone like Sanitas
> 
> You need a tax gestor and preferably one who is recommended. We searched around quite a lot when we came over and have recommended ours to several couples who have been very happy


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## Stravinsky

natalieml said:


> There are 4 of us - 2 adults and 2 children covered on the policy so that's probably why it seems on the high side to you. Sanitas quote was €400 per month to cover us. Bah!
> 
> I would like the details of yout tax gestor if that's OK? I woudl much rather go on recommendation.


No problem, are you moving to this area though? he is in Gandia


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## natalieml

We are in Del Sol 




Stravinsky said:


> No problem, are you moving to this area though? he is in Gandia


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## Guest

I use a very good gestor that would be local enough, a lot can happen between now and December though!!


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## gus-lopez

Saw an ad in Marca testerday 2 for 1 with Sanitas.Couldn't read the small print though it was unbelievably small !


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## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> Saw an ad in Marca testerday 2 for 1 with Sanitas.Couldn't read the small print though it was unbelievably small !


Gus I read the small print. Nothing important, it just wittered on about sight/vision problems not included


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## gus-lopez

nigele2 said:


> Gus I read the small print. Nothing important, it just wittered on about sight/vision problems not included


Good job I'm with the state then !! Another thing I noticed in there was that @ least 4 of the car adverts ,inc. seat & vw, were offering 0% finance over 3 years. Must be getting deperate.


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## JBODEN

gus-lopez said:


> ... seat & vw, were offering 0% finance over 3 years. QUOTE]
> Nothinh for nothing. You probably won't get a hugh discount if you take up the finance + did they mention their commissions/arrangement fees/cancellation or early repayment fees (I thought not)?


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## Nociolata

[To go back to moving to Spain, we have been here 23 years +, the only people who survive are the ones prepared to put in a lot of hard work, if you are thinking of moving here to work less, forget it, in this crisis things are even worse, but generally, you put in the work, you get on, people who move here thinking they can just "slack" and enjoy the good life are sorely mistaken, the good life and weather come at a price !


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