# Dubai Bank says all female staff must wear abayas



## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

This is so, so wrong. So all non-muslims are forced to wear abaya and shailah.



> The proposal, signed by Shaikh Mohammad Taqi Usmani, Chairman of the Fatwa and Sharia Supervisory Board of Dubai Bank, says the move will gain customers' confidence and help market the bank's products.


How? I used to be a member of Dubai Bank and there were a few Brits working there. Do you really think they'd be happy in being forced to wear what is a symbol of sexual oppression for man over woman, which is what these items are?

The way that men in the past have used religion as a suppression against women is despicable, this is just another example.

And where in the Koran does it state that all non-muslims should be veiled at all?

Gulfnews: Dubai Bank says all female staff must wear abayas


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## Redhead77 (Aug 20, 2009)

Especially for men who like to look at womens "bums"....LMAO...So, no Dubai Bank for you...hehe...
:cheer2::cheer2:


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Redhead77 said:


> Especially for men who like to look at womens "bums"....LMAO...So, no Dubai Bank for you...hehe...
> :cheer2::cheer2:


Credit where credit's due.....


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

No where in the Koran does it say that anyone should dress in that way. It simply says that people should dress modestly.

I think this new rule is appalling. I do hope people vote with their feet.

-


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Talk about a mountain out of a mole hill.

Hi guys.

To you it may be an archaic symbol of female oppression, but to most modern day muslim women it's a statement of independence that they do not want to be judged on their appearance. Especially in this day and age where the media villifies most things related to Hijab. I've met countless girls that have started to dress this way as a reaction to perceptions such as yours and it's very common for Muslims in the west who are very very rarely forced into this.

Most revered female in history is probably Virgin Mary, and I don't see many people complaining about her dress sense 

It's simply a uniform in line with Middle Eastern culture, what is so bad about it?? It's the equivalent of male staff having to wear the Emirati dress (dishdasha)

I think Emirates airlines staff don't look too trendy with their funky hats, but I don't make such a fuss about it, it's just a uniform, which is why in this case it'll apply to whoever works there, Muslim or not. 

If I worked in a Japanese restaurant and was told to wear a Kimono, so be it.

I think Emirates number one priority has to be to reduce these fireballs that occur in traffic accidents.


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## bubble_boy (May 28, 2008)

I wouldn't mind wearing a dishdasha to work.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Isn't this the same islamic principals that is up in arms about freedom of choice for the individual with regards to France's proposals regarding religious dress?

Pot Kettle Black

If my wife worked there, thank goodness she doesn't, I would be saying in no uncertain terms that she shouldn't adhere.

As for equating itto wearing a dishdasha, I would refuse point blank. It is the Emirati national dress, and as I am not an Emirati national, I wouldn't wear it.


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

Hijab: Quranic Verses about Hijab

Of course if you dont like it then you can leave, but wait the pay is too good aint it ?


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

And that link rather proves my point. It says to dress modestly only.

The abaya is a cultural garment and the concept of women covering to this degreee in the UAE is actually a relatively recent concept. You only have to look back 30 years to see how women dressed here and it is not the same as now. Whilst they certainly dressed modestly, they were not all swathed in black, nor were heads always covered.

True Islam is a generous religion, but sadly, like many it is open to interpretation fro those who seek to impose their views on others. Such a shame.

-


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

Oh so now you are saying that 30 years ago Emirati women were wearing less than what they wear today? Wow, I didnt know that being a mod on a UAE forum, also makes you an expert on Emirati history and also on Islam


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Ogri750 said:


> Isn't this the same islamic principals that is up in arms about freedom of choice for the individual with regards to France's proposals regarding religious dress?
> 
> Pot Kettle Black
> 
> ...



Is the Pot/Kettle reference to me? because it's a little premature for accusations of hypocracy from your end, and unnecessarily aggressive 

The fact that you are so against a dishdasha too is intriguing. What on earth is the big deal?

If anything I'd find the idea of the dishdasha quite liberating (not that I wear one myself), at least your equipment can hang loose in this searing heat.

The problem with the France issue, and even this issue, is that people generally refuse to believe that a women wanting to dress in a less sexually appealling fashion is anything but oppressive to the woman, when the irony is that it is the male dominated world that forces women to flaunt their assets. Even the France President's wife made her name by gettin naked for photographers (literally). There is plenty of discussion that can be generated by this issue, but I'll avoid it at this stage as it's unrelated in this instance, and was only brought up by you wanting to speak out against "islamic principles" 

One expects a uniform in a bank, and a formal one at that. I'm not sure that one actually needs to delve deeper into this, but that's just my opinion.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

bdb said:


> Oh so now you are saying that 30 years ago Emirati women were wearing less than what they wear today? Wow, I didnt know that being an admin on UAE forum, also makes you an expert on Emirati history and also on Islam


I am sure there are very many things you don't know...

-


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> Is the Pot/Kettle reference to me? because it's a little premature for accusations of hypocracy from your end, and unnecessarily aggressive
> 
> The fact that you are so against a dishdasha too is intriguing. What on earth is the big deal?
> 
> ...


Kindly watch your tone. Ogri was not being the slightest bit aggressive and is a moderator in this forum.

I did not see his comments as being 'against dishdasha' but as a British man , why on earth would he wear one? It's the same as expecting , say, an Italian to wear a Scottish kilt. 




I do find it terribly disappointing that every time anything even vaguely relating to religion is discussed on this board, several people start making nasty and frequently aggressive and ill-informed comment. This is an international forum, not one for the promotion of any belief system.

Those of us in the UAE are largely well -aware of Islam and indeed many of us have read a great deal about it, know Emiratis and the history of this country, having been here a number of years.

If posters cannot discuss this issue rationally, without insult, then the thread will be closed and no further discussion permitted.

-


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> #If posters cannot discuss this issue rationally, without insult, then the thread will be closed and no further discussion permitted.


It is your ball I guess and you're free to take it home anytime.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> It is your ball I guess and you're free to take it home anytime.


No. The rules of this website.

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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

I'm not reading anything in M123's post other than a differing opinion, certainly no insults.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> I'm not reading anything in M123's post other than a differing opinion, certainly no insults.



It is quite clear that my comments regarding behaviour on this site are of a general nature.

Stop trying to be antagonistic.

-


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

The issue here to me is more freedom of choice, and the burqa is a "uniform" for female Muslims - fair enough - in the same way that the kilt is a "uniform" for the Scots, and the loud shorts and Hawaiian shirts (in XXXXXXXXXL size) are the "uniform" for travellers from the States...

The fact is that the freedom to choose should still be there, to have something retrospectively forced onto you and against your will is wrong.

And then to use the adage of religion as the reason for this further fans the fire.

To dress modestly, as most of us do here, is the way to go, to have respect for others - let them dress how they feel comfortable - within the bounds of decency of course and upholding the cultural and moral values of the country of course - live and let live, and don't force people who are not believers in your way of life, to live within the confines of your lifestyle.

As Francois-Marie Arouet de Voltaire said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Surely that works in many different ways dress included.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Dubai Bank is a private company, surely they are entitled to insist on any dress code they see fit?


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> Dubai Bank is a private company, surely they are entitled to insist on any dress code they see fit?


Oh please, you're just being cantankerous now...


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Kindly watch your tone. Ogri was not being the slightest bit aggressive and is a moderator in this forum.


Hi Elphaba. I'm not sure what you are referring to, but as a rule of thumb, my tone is generally very civil online, and if this isn't the case, then I am sorry. Ogri's status as a moderator does not mean I cannot give an opinion to him, (after all, by definition he should be moderate  ) I simply found the whole tongue in cheek opening statement about "Islamic principles" and "pot calling the kettle black" a little bit strong, but that's as far as it went. I hope this is clear in case you misunderstood.



> I did not see his comments as being 'against dishdasha' but as a British man , why on earth would he wear one? It's the same as expecting , say, an Italian to wear a Scottish kilt.
> 
> -


Why wouldn't an Italian wear a kilt if he worked for a Glaswegian firm where it was the uniform??

Heck, I have an Arab friend who wore a kilt for his graduation because he went to Glasgow Uni. Sure it's a special occasion, but it's not exactly going to change his ethics in any way shape or form. 

I'm interested to hear the justification behind this, which is why I was intrigued by Ogri's points.

Cheers


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Andy Capp said:


> Oh please, you're just being cantankerous now...


Quite. 

You own a company AndyC, so by the same logic you could insist that all your staff should dress as say, morris dancers or showgirls.


-


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Elphaba said:


> Quite.
> 
> You own a company AndyC, so by the same logic you could insist that all your staff should dress as say, morris dancers or showgirls.
> 
> ...


Burlesque dancers - now you have me thinking.....

And I could get Dita Von Teese over to open the new office.....


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Andy Capp said:


> Oh please, you're just being cantankerous now...


No, I'm not and bemused at the attitudes to discussing this here.

My opinion is that the Abaya is far from a garment of female oppression, the Burka perhaps but that's not what's being discussed. As far as I see and through the Emirati women I come into contact with through work, the Abaya is just traditional dress similar to say a sari. Most apparently chose to wear it and women of different ages and regions alter it to suit their own styles.

To see 3 or so girls strutting through the mall, wearing Abayas, yet giving it more attitude than Destiny's Child, is not saying to me they are particularly oppressed.

If the order came from the municipality that *all* women in the Emirate must where an abaya then there would be a point to contest but to re-iterate, Dubai Bank is a private company operating out of Dubai and they can do as they see fit.


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## Willsy1 (May 26, 2009)

What about the rules for staff in a Fancy Dress shop? I like the idea of Burlesque though..


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

M123,

the Pot Kettle Black reference wasn't for you.

Many muslims, rightly or wrongly depending on your view point, are incensed at what is perceived as France's stance towards islamic clothing. The claim is that it is their right to wear what they choose without fear of persecution.

My arguement is simply, what works one way always works the other. Freedom of choice.

As for wearing a dishdasha, why would I want to? I'm sure it would be an extremely sensible choice of clothing on a construction site. 

I am pretty confident that the last time I was in London, I didn't see too many arabs wandering around in bowler hats and pearly king outfits


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Mr Rossi,

your arguement about it being a private company holds about as much water as a string bag.

I'll start a private company, take on some employees, then, I'll decide that everyone has to have spider web tattoo across their face. What would the reaction be to that?


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Ogri750 said:


> I'll start a private company, take on some employees, then, I'll decide that everyone has to have spider web tattoo across their face.


Such is your right as owner of the company


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> Such is your right as owner of the company


Oh please......

I can't believe anyone would come out with such rubbish!

So as part of your contract of employment you could insist on every member of staff having permanent spider-web tattoos over their entire faces could you?

I've never heard so much complete and utter rubbish in my life, and believe me, that's saying something.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Andy Capp said:


> Oh please......
> 
> I can't believe anyone would come out with such rubbish!
> 
> ...



No I wouldn't, the spiders web tattoo was your own inept analogy. I am merely stating that it is the preserve of any company to dictate it's own dress standards, whether Dubai Bank, Carre Four or McDonalds. But feel free to continue to descredit the arguement in lieu of any salient point of view.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> No I wouldn't, the spiders web tattoo was your own inept analogy. I am merely stating that it is the preserve of any company to dictate it's own dress standards, whether Dubai Bank, Carre Four or McDonalds. But feel free to continue to descredit the arguement in lieu of any salient point of view.


But it is the same argument - admittedly one taken to extremes - but intrinsically the same.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Andy Capp said:


> But it is the same argument - admittedly one taken to extremes - but intrinsically the same.


Then my point still stands, it's up to the company to enforce any standards of dress they see fit, not the employee.

Throughout this though, I was wondering if actual the line on female staff wearing an abaya is actually a branding exercise rather than the enforement of any religous doctrine.


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Ogri750 said:


> M123,
> 
> the Pot Kettle Black reference wasn't for you.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Thank you for clarifying your initial statement, I apologised in advance if that was the case.

The France issue is a little more complex. I'm not naive enough to presume that most people of a non-arab or Islamic background haven't at least had some exposure to Islamic or Arabian culture, and this is especially the case with expats (although I have come across a few people who maintain a lack of appreciation for other cultures).

When you take the perspective that the modest dress is a feminist issue for many Muslim girls, of which there are millions in France, as well as the fact that they willingly in the west (vast majority of girls I come across make the decision out of choice) put on the hijab to signify that they do not want men to look at them in a sexual manner (sometimes you could put a potatoe sack on a pretty girl and she'll still be attractive, but you get the picture), then the France issue is pretty much a direct attack on their religion, principles and ethics, and oppressing them. The irony of Carla Bruni's claim to fame further indicates this. 

Choosing to dress in a more modest fashion shouldn't be offensive to most, which is why I don't see the big deal. I can certainly empathise with those who worry about face covering ensembles, but this is a tiny minority of people who advocate this.

You are very much entitled to your opinion, mine is simply that Abaya/headscarf are items of clothing designed to strengthen women, as well as being a cultural thing here (many won't wear a scarf, just the abaya), so a uniform in line with the culture, with a modest tone to it, shouldn't be offensive.

Essentially it's a case of clothing ranging from casual/beachwear > casual > smart-casual > formal 

The abaya/dishdasha is accepted here in the formal end of this category judging by the social norms and dress criteria at upmarket places, so for it to be adopted as a uniform isn't a shock to me.

As for Arabs in london, the metro look seems to dominate their wardrobe, and I can guarantee you that those that work in various hotels or restaurants, will be wearing some ridiculous getups at times.

Anyway, I tend to drag on when I start typing, so I'll leave it at that


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Mr Rossi said:


> Throughout this though, I was wondering if actual the line on female staff wearing an abaya is actually a branding exercise rather than the enforement of any religous doctrine.


(let's move on from the first point - don't think we'll agree and we're going around in circles..)



> Gulf News has learnt that the proposal on the dress code was made by the bank's Fatwa and Sharia Supervisory Board


Fatwa and Sharia are religious terms under Islam, so the decision is based under Sharia law, although at no times does it say in The Koran that women must wear abaya etc. just to "dress modestly".

Therefore, it appears to me, with the information that we have been given that the decision is based on a religious edict and will become part of the branding.

It really doesn't faze me at all dealing with customer service agents on banks, fines depts., immigration etc. that are wearing abayas, it's the fact that it is a Muslim dress and the company owners are forcing (what is seen to be) a religious icon onto non-believers.

I wonder if the next step will be that all staff members no matter what (if any) religion, need to attend prayers 5 times daily as a part of their contract?

Anyway, i find it distasteful, and the fact that...



> The bank has given employees a grace period until after the Eid holiday after which it will become mandatory.


Is somewhat at odds with...



> A Dubai Bank official who would not reveal his name said a memo was issued to this effect by the human resources manager, informing employees that *starting from the first day of Ramadan* all female employees must wear a shailah and abaya regardless of their religion.


well, i just found that typical Dubai.


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## Sumair (Aug 16, 2008)

Andy Capp said:


> (let's move on from the first point - don't think we'll agree and we're going around in circles..)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dear Andy, 

In every Islamic Bank , shariah board decisions are implemented as these banks are licensed only for Islamic banking and as a law each and every transactions must routed and approved from Shariah Board.

As a name reflects " Islamic Bank" we must presume that the environment will be Islamic which includes dressing etc. The Aabya is muslim woman dressing so they are good to implement it. 

Only difference is that They MUST put it in the employment contract at start , ethically ( or legally) they are not allowed to change employment contract significantly in between. 

Usually in other Islamic banks dress codes are written and explain to new comers before signing the contract. 

One example of Islamic bank , they acquire conventional bank and merged it with Islamic Bank, as Aabbya was mandatory for Islamic bank female personnel whereas it was not in the conventional bank. So they allow the non-conventional bank female staff to wear as usual till the expiry of respective contract at the renewal they put the aabya clause. providing the opportunity to the employee to renew or not . 


Best Regards


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

The point is that this is not Europe, this is not the US, this NOT a democratic country. I think 99% of us expats who moved out here knew this when we moved out here. If you didnt, well now you know. Of course if you dont like it, then you can always move back to where you do have a "freedom" of choice, or even "freedom" of speech. 

But like I said before, the money that most of us get paid is enough to bend our ideals, aint it?


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## mcd1203 (Nov 25, 2008)

I just wanted to state that yes there are uniforms in other companies. But if you look at other countries (take McDonald's since it was mentioned before), women are allowed to wear they hijab instead of the uniformed hat so that it doesn't go against their religion. And years ago there was a case in Canada regarding the RCMP uniform and a Sikh who wouldn't wear the standard hat because he couldn't remove his Dastar. The companies gave permission to some employees to alter the uniform due to religion.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

bdb said:


> The point is that this is not Europe, this is not the US, this NOT a democratic country. I think 99% of us expats who moved out here knew this when we moved out here. If you didnt, well now you know. Of course if you dont like it, then you can always move back to where you do have a "freedom" of choice, or even "freedom" of speech. *Your stock answer to everything it seems*
> 
> But like I said before, the money that most of us get paid is enough to bend our ideals, aint it?. *No, money doesn't buy my principles*


I would like to see the outcome of the first case for unfair dismissal at the MOL, especially as this won't be in an existing employee's contract


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

_*When St. Augustine arrived in Milan, he observed that the Church did not fast on Saturday as did the Church at Rome. He consulted, St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, who replied: "When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday; when I am at Milan, I do not. Follow the custom of the Church where you are." The comment was changed to "When they are at Rome, they do there as they see done" by Robert Burton in his Anatomy of Melancholy. Eventually it became "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."*_

What I am trying to say, is that you don’t have to comply with their beliefs but do as you are asked to when in a place you don’t come from. As a visitor you should try and do as the people do. This is the only way to elicit ‘’living in peace and harmony’’

What then is the point in moving to a new place if all you are going to do is oppose its culture and traditions!! 

So if Dubai bank wants their staff to wear abaya, then why not!! The ones not comfortable wearing it, might as well leave!! Plain and simple!!


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Suey said:


> _*When St. Augustine arrived in Milan, he observed that the Church did not fast on Saturday as did the Church at Rome. He consulted, St. Ambrose, bishop of Milan, who replied: "When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday; when I am at Milan, I do not. Follow the custom of the Church where you are." The comment was changed to "When they are at Rome, they do there as they see done" by Robert Burton in his Anatomy of Melancholy. Eventually it became "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."*_
> 
> What I am trying to say, is that you don’t have to comply with their beliefs but do as you are asked to when in a place you don’t come from. As a visitor you should try and do as the people do. This is the only way to elicit ‘’living in peace and harmony’’
> 
> ...



Really? So if the UAE federal government decided that ALL women in the UAE should wear an abaya and a shayla you'd be happy about that??

By the same token, should the UK ban the wearing of burqas, hijab, turbans etc as it is not the British way?

-


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Really? So if the UAE federal government decided that ALL women in the UAE should wear an abaya and a shayla you'd be happy about that??
> 
> By the same token, should the UK ban the wearing of burqas, hijab, turbans etc as it is not the British way?
> 
> -


Oh yeah, Elphaba, if I had a good job and I did not want to let go, and I have no issues wearing it, I would defo comply. To me, (as I am not Muslim) it would mean nothing at all, I would just look at it as a piece of garment and not let it do my head in!

However, like I said if you don’t like it, don’t do it. Well, if I am in a place and I am mandated to do something I don’t like or am not comfortable with, all I have to do is leave. But if I am okay with it and it doesn't bother me, then I comply.



> By the same token, should the UK ban the wearing of burqas, hijab, turbans etc as it is not the British way?


You have to understand that countries are different; they have different policies and different governing systems. Some countries are liberal while others use dictatorship.
So it comes down to individual choices, if you are willing to live in a foreign country you have to be willing to abide by the laws there, right? If you are not comfortable with the policies in that country then do not bother migrating there. 
Anyways just my opinion and way of doing things.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Suey said:


> Oh yeah, Elphaba, if I had a good job and I did not want to let go, and I have no issues wearing it, I would defo comply. To me, (as I am not Muslim) it would mean nothing at all, I would just look at it as a piece of garment and not let it do my head in!
> 
> However, like I said if you don’t like it, don’t do it. Well, if I am in a place and I am mandated to do something I don’t like or am not comfortable with, all I have to do is leave. But if I am okay with it and it doesn't bother me, then I comply.
> 
> ...




Having lived in several countries I am well aware of the differences. It just surprises me that people are happy to accept unreasonable logic in one place but not in another.

And to clarify, the bank ruling is regarding the wearing of both an abaya AND a shayla. These are not strictly Islamic dress and a woman can comply with both the koran and hadith by wearing other modest dress.


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Having lived in several countries I am well aware of the differences. It just surprises me that people are happy to accept unreasonable logic in one place but not in another.
> 
> And to clarify, the bank ruling is regarding the wearing of both an abaya AND a shayla. These are not strictly Islamic dress and a woman can comply with both the koran and hadith by wearing other modest dress.


I don't even know what a shayla or hadith is!! but anyways, having lived in several countries, obviously you are aware of different governing systems, therefore, you should be able to totally understand this. I too have lived in several countries, even at a very early age and have seen different governing systems. I totally agree some policies are absolutely horrendous, I will put it point blank, some are good and others are bad.
But these are things one needs to consider before they migrate, ask yourself will you handle the country’s policies? Can you adjust to it? If not, then think twice!!


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Perhaps an analogy is in order as I keep seeing modest dress or hijab being equated with forcing the removal of hijab. If one works then the other must be acceptable too right??? Wrong.

Let's put it this way.

Hijab wearers have a peanut allergy, non-fatal, but it's painful.
Non-Hijab wearers do not have a peanut allergy, but like peanuts.

Now, is forcing the allergy sufferers to Eat nuts, equal to forcing the non-allergy sufferers to avoid nuts altogether (but eat everything else).

There is no "british way of dressing" because many brits are muslims and many others have ridiculous fashion sense. The "british way" is to wear whatever you like (note turbans, headscarves etc are under that umbrella) , and the "muslim way" is to dress in non-revealing clothing/hijab.

One is backwards compatible with the other, but not vice versa. 

You can't believe in "freedom to wear what you like" but then hate a particular method of dressing!!


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Suey said:


> I don't even know what a shayla or hadith is!! but anyways, having lived in several countries, obviously you are aware of different governing systems, therefore, you should be able to totally understand this. I too have lived in several countries, even at a very early age and have seen different governing systems. I totally agree some policies are absolutely horrendous, I will put it point blank, some are good and others are bad.
> But these are things one needs to consider before they migrate, ask yourself will you handle the country’s policies? Can you adjust to it? If not, then think twice!!


You don't now what a shayla or the hadith are? How long have you lived in the UAE? 

A shayla is the loose-ish headscarf worn by Emirati women

Hadith are essentially the interpretation of the koran used as guidance in everyday life. Originally oral traditions, they have since been written down and are well known to muslims as these are often the rules followed in every day life. Sunni and Shi'a muslims use different hadith. (Any Muslims feel free to correct me here, but this is my understanding & hence brief explanation.)


Suey - don't forget the policies of a country can change....


-


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> Perhaps an analogy is in order as I keep seeing modest dress or hijab being equated with forcing the removal of hijab. If one works then the other must be acceptable too right??? Wrong.
> 
> Let's put it this way.
> 
> ...


I cannot equate a fatal allergy with the wearing of a particular clothing item. Good effort, but it does not work.

Who said anything about hating a particular method of dressing? You are making things up now. 

The Muslim way is to wear modest clothing, not anything in particular, as I have said many times. How often has anyone seen Princess Haya dressed in an abaya & shayla, for example?

Dubai may, one day, have to make a choice. Have expats here, essentially running much of the country, and permit them most (note, the word most) 'Western' freedoms, or become a fully Islamic state, per KSA. The emirate advertises itself as one thing, but frequently acts as another.

-


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> I cannot equate a fatal allergy with the wearing of a particular clothing item. Good effort, but it does not work.
> 
> Who said anything about hating a particular method of dressing? You are making things up now.
> 
> ...


There were elements in my post that were in direct response to you, but certainly not all of it. 

Effectively, making staff at a bank wear a particular uniform has illicited responses from various members on topics ranging from (and I'm paraphrasing, in case anyone is pedantic enough to nitpick) : 

"they'll force us to pray next";"If we have to wear 'their' clothing, then they can't complain if we stop them wearing 'our' clothing"; "They are adopting oppressive clothing regimes for women"


This type of response would not occur if it was a Chinese restaurant making staff wear buddhist monk uniforms.

I hope you see wear I'm coming from, and I am certainly impressed with your general knowledge of the area and customs, so please do not feel that it's any attack on my part.

As a side note, Shias and Sunnis effectively have many overlapping Hadiths, it's just that the collections are in different books, where Sunnis have effectively filtered the weak ones a thousand years ago, and the Shias have kept them (i.e. it's the responsibility of the scholars of the time to filter them, rather than having a blanket filtration of them at a particular period).


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## marc (Mar 10, 2008)

maybe we should all just be naked?


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

I firmly believe that the wearing of abaya/hijhab is a tool of religion that is used by men for the oppression of women. In other words, the (allegedly learned and religious) men force their "male supremacist" views on the "weak" females by using incorrectly quoted passages from a book of fairy tales and telling them that they'll go to hell if they don't abide by the man's rules. Then of course the man can do what he wants either with the prostitutes in Bur Dubai or the choir boys in Dublin....

My "religion" for example is an innate sense of what is right and wrong, where people earn respect (not given it up-front) and everyone is treated alike regardless of sex, colour or "religion" and no-one is better than another - unless of course (s)he's English when of course they're better ().

Religion comes from within, one intrinsically know's what is right and what is wrong. it all depends on whether you listen to your inner soul.....

And yes, i expect to be hanged for that one.....


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## marc (Mar 10, 2008)

Well said, even if CID has logged onto your location and they are on the way to your place now.

I think a great guy called marc once said;

Relgion is the impotance of the human mind to deal with occorances it can't understand.

Get paid get laid.


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> B]You don't now what a shayla or the hadith are? How long have you lived in the UAE? [/[/B]
> A shayla is the loose-ish headscarf worn by Emirati women
> 
> Hadith are essentially the interpretation of the koran used as guidance in everyday life. Originally oral traditions, they have since been written down and are well known to muslims as these are often the rules followed in every day life. Sunni and Shi'a muslims use different hadith. (Any Muslims feel free to correct me here, but this is my understanding & hence brief explanation.)
> ...


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

marc said:


> Well said, even if CID has logged onto your location and they are on the way to your place now.
> 
> I think a great guy called marc once said;
> 
> ...


Religion is the opiate of the people.

Mr Marx - that's Karl not Chico, Groucho, Harpo, Zeppo or Gummo.....


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

Andy Capp said:


> Religion is the opiate of the people.
> 
> Mr Marx - that's Karl not Chico, Groucho, Harpo, Zeppo or Gummo.....


The dress code in UAE is totally religious though!!


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Let's not go down the huge opiate problem here hon.....


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Andy Capp said:


> I firmly believe that the wearing of abaya/hijhab is a tool of religion that is used by men for the oppression of women. In other words, the (allegedly learned and religious) men force their "male supremacist" views on the "weak" females by using incorrectly quoted passages from a book of fairy tales and telling them that they'll go to hell if they don't abide by the man's rules. Then of course the man can do what he wants either with the prostitutes in Bur Dubai or the choir boys in Dublin....
> 
> My "religion" for example is an innate sense of what is right and wrong, where people earn respect (not given it up-front) and everyone is treated alike regardless of sex, colour or "religion" and no-one is better than another - unless of course (s)he's English when of course they're better ().
> 
> ...


There are plenty of things being used as tools against women mate, it's just that people don't focus on them because they are masturbation aids.

Fashion magazines, Promotion of WAGs, marketing of motor vehicles, etc etc. Women always feel pressured into having their looks come first, which is why people are spending their benefits money on cosmetic surgery back home , along with rising levels of anorexia and bullimia. Not to mention the whole salaries and management positions issues, or Abercrombie and Fitch.

I personally won't go into any religion debates, as what's "intrinsically right" to one person, is paedophillia or Cannibalism to the next person


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## spartan (Apr 28, 2009)

Although this issue has been discussed previously, I wanted to reiterate another posters sentiment that as a private company, Dubai Bank can choose whatever 'uniform' they believe best represents them and their brand.

A small example will maybe help quell this disagreement.

The US Fortune 500 company that i work for does not allow its employees to have facial hair. 
The no-facial hair rule, as such, is a uniform requirement. Knowing that this would not work for the company in the UAE, they have amended this stipulation for the region. 

This no-facial hair rule, is obviously based on American business/social norms and does not apply to every culture.

Being fully aware of the restraints on personal freedom (freedom of choice) that this would cause, it was a personal choice to work for this company. Because to me the perceived benefit was greater than the disadvantage. Unfortunately, its as easy as take it or go work somewhere. 
You obviously have the freedom of choice to go work somewhere where an abaya (or no facial-hair) is not mandatory.

Similarly, if Dubai Bank had branches in other parts of the world, it would obviously not require its employees there to wear an abaya/dishdasha (etc)...in keeping with the local customs and traditions.



Dear Andy Capp:
Taking cheap shots at Americans and their clothing...tsk tsk...not very nice.
Should I be commenting on your lack of dental hygiene and bathing infrequency? 

Did I see something about the pot calling the kettle black?


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## marc (Mar 10, 2008)

its all load of s*** when you think about it, because in the big picture we are all slaves - to money.

in the media, the economy everywhere, spend more money on things you don't really need, its all part of the plan...


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> There are plenty of things being used as tools against women mate, it's just that people don't focus on them because they are masturbation aids.
> 
> Fashion magazines, Promotion of WAGs, marketing of motor vehicles, etc etc. Women always feel pressured into having their looks come first, which is why people are spending their benefits money on cosmetic surgery back home , along with rising levels of anorexia and bullimia. Not to mention the whole salaries and management positions issues, or Abercrombie and Fitch.
> 
> I personally won't go into any religion debates, as what's "intrinsically right" to one person, is paedophillia or Cannibalism to the next person



I think you'll find that there is a lot of plastic surgery going on in Dubai, certainly far more than in Europe. I know of many Emirati & Arab women who have undergone procedure and not many Europeans, so I suggest you have that rather wrong.

And no, women do not _always feel pressurised into having their looks come_ _first_ (to quote you). Many of us are rational and educated people who can think for ourselves.

-


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Suey said:


> Elphaba said:
> 
> 
> > B]You don't now what a shayla or the hadith are? How long have you lived in the UAE? [/[/B]
> ...


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> I think you'll find that there is a lot of plastic surgery going on in Dubai, certainly far more than in Europe. I know of many Emirati & Arab women who have undergone procedure and not many Europeans, so I suggest you have that rather wrong.
> 
> And no, women do not _always feel pressurised into having their looks come_ _first_ (to quote you). Many of us are rational and educated people who can think for ourselves.
> 
> -


Lol, so Emirati's do cosmetic surgery, and many women are rational and educated. Profound stuff there!

Thanks for that . When it gets to the stage of nitpicking, either you haven't understood my point, or are making a completely different one intentionally. So I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your response.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> Lol, so Emirati's do cosmetic surgery, and many women are rational and educated. Profound stuff there!
> 
> Thanks for that . When it gets to the stage of nitpicking, either you haven't understood my point, or are making a completely different one intentionally. So I'll leave it at that. Thank you for your response.



Perhaps you need to learn to present a relevant and rational argument then? 

Alleging that people in the UK use state benefits to pay for surgery has no relevance to this discussion. You are the one who was claiming that women are essentially brain-washed airheads. 



-


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## Sumair (Aug 16, 2008)

Andy Capp said:


> I firmly believe that the wearing of abaya/hijhab is a tool of religion that is used by men for the oppression of women. In other words, the (allegedly learned and religious) men force their "male supremacist" views on the "weak" females by using incorrectly quoted passages from a book of fairy tales and telling them that they'll go to hell if they don't abide by the man's rules. Then of course the man can do what he wants either with the prostitutes in Bur Dubai or the choir boys in Dublin....
> 
> My "religion" for example is an innate sense of what is right and wrong, where people earn respect (not given it up-front) and everyone is treated alike regardless of sex, colour or "religion" and no-one is better than another - unless of course (s)he's English when of course they're better ().
> 
> ...


Dear Andy, 


Everyone has right to live according to his beliefs , and this is the thing what Islam teaches. 

The rights of woman in Islam is far greater than any other religion , culture or social groups are providing or provided to woman.

To understand the concept of Hijab , I just request you to search the net and you will find hundreds article about the benefit of Hijab and of course you will find articles by woman herself.

The very fist verse from Quran : "O My Lord increase me in knowledge" 

Best Regards


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Sumair said:


> Dear Andy,
> 
> 
> Everyone has right to live according to his beliefs , and this is the thing what Islam teaches.
> ...


May I ask what you base this comment on? That is a very sweeping statement and I have to disagree. 

The Koran certainly claims equality, but in much of the Muslim world women are not treated as equals.

From your comments I assume you are Muslim? 

-


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

As a side note, next time some of you go to London, you'll find some branches of Arabian Oud.

When you go inside, you'll see that the workers, of whom there are british and european women, will be wearing a shayla and abaya.

Naturally, there are no picket lines outside, and the UK doesn't seem to be offended.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> As a side note, next time some of you go to London, you'll find some branches of Arabian Oud.
> 
> When you go inside, you'll see that the workers, of whom there are british and european women, will be wearing a shayla and abaya.
> 
> Naturally, there are no picket lines outside, and the UK doesn't seem to be offended.


Why on earth would anyone be offended? The UK is very opening and welcome to all cultures. The UK does not force people to wear Western clothes.

I really see no relevance to the discussion about Dubai Bank in the UAE insisting their female staff wear an abaya and shalya. 

-


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Perhaps you need to learn to present a relevant and rational argument then?
> 
> Alleging that people in the UK use state benefits to pay for surgery has no relevance to this discussion. You are the one who was claiming that women are essentially brain-washed airheads.
> 
> ...


I have removed the comments that you found personally offensive (albeit the intention was completely not one to offend).

response below:

Your patronising opening statement is unneccessary. 

I am referring to the WAG culture with many girls in their late teens and early twenties, spending essentially all of their income or savings on cosmetics and cosmetic procedures. This is not to meant that it doesn't happen elsewhere in the world, even in arabic countries such as lebanon.

Your last point makes as much sense as me saying that "(insert name) is claiming that Muslim women are oppressed robots with no freedom". 

It serves no purpose to imply or state that I am taking a stance against women, when this is definitely NOT the case.


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## M123 (Aug 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Why on earth would anyone be offended? The UK is very opening and welcome to all cultures. The UK does not force people to wear Western clothes.
> 
> I really see no relevance to the discussion about Dubai Bank in the UAE insisting their female staff wear an abaya and shalya.
> 
> -


Of course it is relevant. It is a company representing a particular culture/region, and adopting a uniform that displays this. 

It is also directly analagous, because western women are wearing the exact same uniform that is being questioned here, without much fuss, in the UK. 

Feel free to disagree, as you have on most of my points on this thread  but I can't elaborate any further on this.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

M123 said:


> Of course it is relevant. It is a company representing a particular culture/region, and adopting a uniform that displays this.
> 
> It is also directly analagous, because western women are wearing the exact same uniform that is being questioned here, without much fuss, in the UK.
> 
> Feel free to disagree, as you have on most of my points on this thread  but I can't elaborate any further on this.



The UK is hardly a direct comparison to the UK. And yes, I will keep disagreeing if that's what I think.  We can disagree without having a fight, I think? 

In the UK, employees have a right of recourse in such matters, here they don't. I am sure you recall the case of the BA employee who was not permitted to wear a crucifix as that may offend, despite that fact that in law, the UK is a Christian country. A daft case (& I'd prefer all religion to be a private matter), but the UK does try to accommodate all. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. 

_Anyway_, I stand by my initial comments that this is not an Islamic matter as there is no requirement for women to wear such items in the Koran. Any modest dress will comply with Sharia Law. Why does a non-Emirati have to wear local dress? The same edict is not applying to men. It would be a different matter if someone was employed on the basis that such a 'uniform' was required, but to force it upon existing staff in this way, when I am quite sure modest dress codes already apply could well be the thin end of the wedge.

Time will tell.

Fortunately I work for myself, so much issues do not apply to me. 

-


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## marc (Mar 10, 2008)

cupcakes anyone?


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## Suey (Jan 11, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Suey said:
> 
> 
> > You are very wrong. I knew a lot about Islam and the Middle East long _before_ I moved here.
> ...


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