# Gibraltar



## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

See IOC has blocked Gib from entering a team on request of Spain


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

IOC? You mean they wanted their own Olympics team? They aren't a country!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> IOC? You mean they wanted their own Olympics team? They aren't a country!




But they do have an international football team...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But they do have an international football team...


Yes, they played here in Alcalá a couple of years ago, I think they beat us.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Incidentally the suggestion that it was Spain which blocked their application came from Gibraltar's president Fabian Picardo, and has been picked up by the British tabloids.

But under the rules of the IOC since 1996, "Dependent territories such as Curaçao, the Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Macau and New Caledonia can no longer be recognised by the IOC. Athletes from those territories can only participate in the Olympics as part of their parent nation's national team."

Seems pretty clear cut to me.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

I don't read tabloids so don't know about them. Apparently were not allowed a football team until recent years as not a country in their own right. But fought their corner and got recognised. I suppose they will do the same here. Any views from our Gib friends?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mono said:


> I don't read tabloids so don't know about them. Apparently were not allowed a football team until recent years as not a country in their own right. But fought their corner and got recognised. I suppose they will do the same here. Any views from our Gib friends?


I think Alca is right (apart from Picardo is chief minister not president).

It seems that the IOC specifically excludes dependent territories whereas the people who rule world and European football don't - it was Spain excluding Gibralatar.

in the case of UEFA, Gibraltar was excluded although other dependent territories were included which led to a case being brought to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Incidentally the suggestion that it was Spain which blocked their application came from Gibraltar's president Fabian Picardo, and has been picked up by the British tabloids.
> 
> But under the rules of the IOC since 1996, "Dependent territories such as Curaçao, the Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Macau and New Caledonia can no longer be recognised by the IOC. Athletes from those territories can only participate in the Olympics as part of their parent nation's national team."
> 
> Seems pretty clear cut to me.


Not as clear cut as it might seem.

Gibraltar applied to join the Olympics 55 years ago. The decision to disallow dependent territories which effectively bars Gibraltar was only made in in 1996. There are quite a few dependent territories which are members.

This is very similar to the football situation where the rule about dependent territories was made after Gibraltar applied. This was overturned by the Court of Arbitration for Sport as there already were dependent territories which were members (of UEFA ISTR). 

I expect we might hear more about this.

And it's almost certain that Spain will have been instrumental in thwarting Gibraltar's attempt to join - they have a long and vindictive history of this kind of thing.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Not as clear cut as it might seem.
> 
> Gibraltar applied to join the Olympics 55 years ago. The decision to disallow dependent territories which effectively bars Gibraltar was only made in in 1996. There are quite a few dependent territories which are members.
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking into the background of all this. It's very sad when the Spanish government takes that attitude, as it reinforces the polarisation of public opinion. At this stage all sides should really be moving beyond this territorial squabbling, especially if Gibraltar is to remain prosperous post-Brexit.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Thanks for looking into the background of all this. It's very sad when the Spanish government takes that attitude, as it reinforces the polarisation of public opinion. At this stage all sides should really be moving beyond this territorial squabbling, especially if Gibraltar is to remain prosperous post-Brexit.


I don't think any of the bodies involved is whiter than white over the Gibraltar situation but surely _in practical terms_ the status quo isn't at all bad? The Campo de Gibraltar benefits financially from the rock and I can't see that anyone is disadvantaged particularly.

National pride is a different matter...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I don't think any of the bodies involved is whiter than white over the Gibraltar situation but surely _in practical terms_ the status quo isn't at all bad? The Campo de Gibraltar benefits financially from the rock and I can't see that anyone is disadvantaged particularly.
> 
> National pride is a different matter...


Gibraltar voted almost unanimously against Brexit. Picardo is desperately seeking a way of staying in the EU. He was been over in Spain attending meetings with politicians and union leaders last week.

How is the Gibraltar economy going to survive when companies who base themselves there purely to sell their services into the EU ("passporting") can no longer do that?

What if Spain gets arsey and decides to restrict freedom of movement across the border? 12,000 people cross it every day.

Brexit an ‘existential threat’ to Gibraltar economy: chief minister – POLITICO


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Gibraltar voted almost unanimously against Brexit. Picardo is desperately seeking a way of staying in the EU. He was been over in Spain attending meetings with politicians and union leaders last week.
> 
> How is the Gibraltar economy going to survive when companies who base themselves there purely to sell their services into the EU ("passporting") can no longer do that?
> 
> ...


Worrying for Gibraltar and also for those people in the Campo de Gibraltar (mostly Spanish) who cross the border to work every day. 

I have no idea how Picardo thinks he can get Gib to remain in the EU.

Incidentally I have a Gibraltarian friend who is one of the very few who voted to leave and his reason for so many Gibraltarians voting to stay is that they all have homes and other interests in Spain and he doesn't.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Spanish proposal for joint sovereignty looks like plain common sense. Residents retain their British citizenship, companies continue to benefit from the EU tax system, and the border controls disappear. Unfortunately where Gibraltar is concerned, sense is anything but common.



> The proposal would also enable Gibraltarians to maintain their British citizenship and to apply for Spanish nationality, without foregoing the former.
> 
> Oyarzun added that Gibraltar would be an “easy fit” in Spain’s model of autonomous governments.
> 
> ...


https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk...s-to-share-control-of-gibraltar-after-brexit/


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*SPAIN ENDS 13-YEAR GIBRALTAR BLOCKADE

GIBRALTAR, Wednesday, Dec. 15— Spain lifted its blockade of the British colony of Gibraltar, opening the heavy black iron gate at midnight to a stream of tearful relatives, some of whom were reunited for the first time in 13 years.

''I'm glad to be back just to be able to see my family again,'' cried Carmen Ward, 42 years old, the first person to cross from Gibraltar to Spain.

About 1,000 people stood on each side of the border, which Franco sealed in 1969 to press Spain's claim to the colony. Gibraltar, strategically situated at the entrance to the Mediterranean, has been British by treaty since 1713.

Spanish civil guards and British border guards stood watch at opposite ends of the 300-yard territory separating Gibraltar from the Spanish mainland. To Spend Christmas Together

''I haven't seen my brother-in-law since they closed the gate and I'm glad that we can spend Christmas together,'' said Angel Fernandez, a worker who had waited since lunchtime at the gate. ''But it will be very complicated to cross back and forth with all these restrictions. Gibraltar and the area on our side have always been political tools.''

Spain's new Socialist Government said it had decided to open the border as a ''humanitarian gesture'' for those families separated by the blockade. It is also intended to help along talks with Britain over the future of the colony*.

Can you blame Gibraltarians for having a high level of mistrust, though.
Everyone knows about the Berlin Wall and although the blockade of Gibraltar was not of such long duration, it still caused distress for many families on both sides of the border.
1969 to 1982....


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

The way the Spanish government has treated Gibraltar over the years was certainly not the way to win them over. It's almost as if they prefer to use them as a distraction...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes, millions of people suffered under Franco, not just the Gibraltarians. Most of them have moved on though, and are more concerned about the future.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, millions of people suffered under Franco, not just the Gibraltarians. Most of them have moved on though, and are more concerned about the future.


You don't have to go back that far.

There's the way in which Spain blocked Gibraltar's football and other sporting ambitions, the unnecessary delays and the inhumane treatment of people at the border, the frequent incursions of Spanish military vessels into Gibraltarian waters, the denial of Gibraltar's inclusion in the Open Skies Directive, the until recent refusal to allow air links between Gibraltar and Spain - petty stuff designed to annoy rather than foster good relations or make Gibraltar any more likely to agree to joint sovereignty.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> You don't have to go back that far.
> 
> There's the way in which Spain blocked Gibraltar's football and other sporting ambitions, the unnecessary delays and the inhumane treatment of people at the border, the frequent incursions of Spanish military vessels into Gibraltarian waters, the denial of Gibraltar's inclusion in the Open Skies Directive, the until recent refusal to allow air links between Gibraltar and Spain - petty stuff designed to annoy rather than foster good relations or make Gibraltar any more likely to agree to joint sovereignty.


I was referring to Mary's post about the genuine suffering caused by the border closure. All this is pretty minor in comparison, as you say, designed to annoy. Likewise all the things Gibraltar does to annoy the Spanish, like not letting Guardia Civil boats into its (disputed) territorial waters to pursue drug smugglers, dumping concrete blocks on the seabed so the fisherman can't work, etc. Time both sides got over themselves and thought about the common good!


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## GrownupMomo (Nov 28, 2016)

a long vindictive history? Do you know how Gibraltar got to be Uk´s territory?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Aside from 'territorial squabbling', shouldn't the views of the Gibraltarians themselves be considered as to their futures? It seems that over 90% wish to remain 'British'.

Surely we're not suggesting that the principle of self-determination should apply only to those territories that wish not to be British?


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## GrownupMomo (Nov 28, 2016)

not sure really, why would the uk goverment and queens kept Scotland, Ireland and wales as uk territories against´t their will then? 
The fact is Gibraltar is a strategical commerce location and a military base that was colonized and taken to the Spanish Monarchy and wasn´t return to the original country when the colonial law was agreed world wide. Why? how come we give back control of our colonies all over the world but UK gets to keep our territory without any trace of shame or concern. Gibraltar is a village of about 30.000 inhabitants an The Rock runs a length of 3 miles, from north to south and is 3/4 mile wide. Its total area is 2 1/4 square miles, meaning smaller than an average size city in spain and its work as a fiscal paradise to english companies stablished there ... that´s all


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Aside from 'territorial squabbling', shouldn't the views of the Gibraltarians themselves be considered as to their futures? It seems that over 90% wish to remain 'British'.
> 
> Surely we're not suggesting that the principle of self-determination should apply only to those territories that wish not to be British?


Why would they be less "British" if Gibraltar were under joint sovereignty? 

Your Britishness hasn't been diminished by living in Spain, has it?

The offer is off the table now anyway, as Margallo has been sacked. Expect the old hard-line PP attitude over the next four years.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

GrownupMomo said:


> not sure really, why would the uk goverment and queens kept Scotland, Ireland and wales as uk territories against´t their will then?
> The fact is Gibraltar is a strategical commerce location and a military base that was colonized and taken to the Spanish Monarchy and wasn´t return to the original country when the colonial law was agreed world wide. Why? how come we give back control of our colonies all over the world but UK gets to keep our territory without any trace of shame or concern. Gibraltar is a village of about 30.000 inhabitants an The Rock runs a length of 3 miles, from north to south and is 3/4 mile wide. Its total area is 2 1/4 square miles, meaning smaller than an average size city in spain and its work as a fiscal paradise to english companies stablished there ... that´s all


Hola!

Scotland and England joined together in an Act of Union four hundred years ago. The King of Scotland became King of England too. In a referendum recently, the Scottish people voted to stay part of the United Kingdom.

Ireland has been independent for nearly a hundred years. Only six counties in the North of Ireland are part of the UK, and that is something the majority of their inhabitants want.

The majority of Welsh people are quite happy to stay in the UK.

Gibraltar was ceded to Britain under the Tratado de Utrecht which was ratified by Felipe V of Spain in 1713.

The only areas still under dispute are the waters surrounding el Peñon, which were not covered under the Treaty.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Hola!
> 
> Scotland and England joined together in an Act of Union four hundred years ago. The King of Scotland became King of England too. In a referendum recently, the Scottish people voted to stay part of the United Kingdom.
> 
> ...


Well explained.

The waters were not covered under the treaty as the legal concept of territorial waters did not exist at the time of the treaty. 

Gibraltar has territorial waters in the same way as every other maritime territory has - there is no reason for it to be different. It only claims 3 miles although it could claim 12. 

In contrast Spain claims 12 miles for it's Moroccan coastal territories.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Why would they be less "British" if Gibraltar were under joint sovereignty?
> 
> Your Britishness hasn't been diminished by living in Spain, has it?
> 
> .


No because I'm not Gibraltarian.
If I were it's very likely I'd feel very different.
Surely we should listen to what the majority of Gibraltarians want and respect how they feel? If they want the status quo because it somehow makes them feel more British, so be it. 
Same with the Falklands.
I personally don't give a toss about Gibraltar, hate the place, but I respect the wishes of those living on the wretched rock.
National sentiment may be irrational but it's very real and very strong.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GrownupMomo said:


> not sure really, why would the uk goverment and queens kept Scotland, Ireland and wales as uk territories against´t their will then?
> The fact is Gibraltar is a strategical commerce location and a military base that was colonized and taken to the Spanish Monarchy and wasn´t return to the original country when the colonial law was agreed world wide. Why? how come we give back control of our colonies all over the world but UK gets to keep our territory without any trace of shame or concern. Gibraltar is a village of about 30.000 inhabitants an The Rock runs a length of 3 miles, from north to south and is 3/4 mile wide. Its total area is 2 1/4 square miles, meaning smaller than an average size city in spain and its work as a fiscal paradise to english companies stablished there ... that´s all


And the inhabitants want to stay British.
Ireland is an independent nation state, Scotland voted to stay in the Union, Wales is happy to be part of the United Kingdom as is Northern Ireland (Ulster).

When you give Ceuta and Mellila back to Morocco you can talk like that about Gibraltar
Your own record of historical oppression starting with South America onwards extending to Cuba, the Phillipines, Morocco etc. and your brutal colonial wars equal the misdeeds of the British Empire. 
Unlike Britain, you didn't 'give back' your colonies. They were taken from you.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

GrownupMomo said:


> not sure really, why would the uk goverment and queens kept Scotland, Ireland and wales as uk territories against´t their will then?
> The fact is Gibraltar is a strategical commerce location and a military base that was colonized and taken to the Spanish Monarchy and wasn´t return to the original country when the colonial law was agreed world wide. Why? how come we give back control of our colonies all over the world but UK gets to keep our territory without any trace of shame or concern. Gibraltar is a village of about 30.000 inhabitants an The Rock runs a length of 3 miles, from north to south and is 3/4 mile wide. Its total area is 2 1/4 square miles, meaning smaller than an average size city in spain and its work as a fiscal paradise to english companies stablished there ... that´s all


Hello Momo.
As you say quite a small place in the scale of things so I do wonder at times why Spain is so touchy about it ?
IMO ....... Spain should take a much more friendly stance & try to display to those living there just how better off they would be (sure they could make a case)
Had Argentina done the same then I doubt that they would have had to wait to many years for the UK to get feed up supporting the place & as far as I can remember there was talk about joint sovereignty etc just a few years before the troubles (?)

I do fancy that higher powers would not like to see it pass onto Spain (just a wild guess ?) as Spain would/could hold the gate key to the Med seeing as they would then have the Moroccan side as well.

Oh well such is life.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

It seems to me that many here have no idea about how touchy Spain is about Gibraltar and its history. There are 2 sides to every argument.

When VFR says:



> I do fancy that higher powers would not like to see it pass onto Spain (just a wild guess ?) as Spain would/could hold the gate key to the Med seeing as they would then have the Moroccan side as well.


That is precisely the reason why the UK wants to hang onto Gibraltar (strategic 'defence' - or rather strategic military reasons), which in turn is another thorn in Spain's side because it quite understandably does not want a UK strategic military site on the rock.

All the other stuff is no more than diversion (IMO of course) and has come about much more recently.

I think quite simply the UK and Brits need to get used to the idea that Spain wants Gibraltar back and that's not going to change.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

What exactly is Spain's claim on Gibraltar?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

I keep losing my reply - so I'll try for the third time.

It's a very long story, but Wikipedia sums it up far more succinctly than I ever could:



> Gibraltar became part of the Visigothic Kingdom of Hispania following the collapse of the Roman Empire and came under Muslim Moorish rule in 711 AD. It was permanently settled for the first time by the Moors and was renamed Jebel Tariq – the Mount of Tariq, later corrupted into Gibraltar. The Christian Kingdom of Castile annexed it in 1309, lost it again to the Moors in 1333 and finally regained it in 1462. Gibraltar became part of the unified Kingdom of Spain and remained under Spanish rule until 1704. It was captured during the War of the Spanish Succession by an Anglo-Dutch fleet in the name of Charles VI of Austria, the Habsburg contender to the Spanish throne. At the war's end, Spain ceded the territory to Britain under the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht of 1713.
> 
> Spain tried to regain control of Gibraltar, which Britain had declared a Crown colony, through military, diplomatic and economic pressure. Gibraltar was besieged and heavily bombarded during three wars between Britain and Spain but the attacks were repulsed on each occasion. By the end of the last siege, in the late 18th century, Gibraltar had faced fourteen sieges in 500 years.





> The traditional Spanish position is based on territorial integrity, as per UN Resolution 1514 (XV) (1960), which according to Spain complements and constrains the right to self-determination: "Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations."


My point is that it's extremely unlikely that Spain will not continue to claim it from time to time, when the opportunity arises (and Brexit is certainly an opportunity).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Surely the principle of self-determination applies equally to Africans, Asians and Gibraltarians???


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Surely the principle of self-determination applies equally to Africans, Asians and Gibraltarians???


Now wouldn't that be nice? Hong Kong anyone?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> I keep losing my reply - so I'll try for the third time.
> 
> It's a very long story, but Wikipedia sums it up far more succinctly than I ever could:


If the argument is territorial integrity where does that leave Alsaka, Northern Ireland and even Denmark?



EverHopeful said:


> My point is that it's extremely unlikely that Spain will not continue to claim it from time to time, when the opportunity arises (and Brexit is certainly an opportunity).


Yes - fair enough - we know that. But it goes no way towards justifying their claim.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

jimenato said:


> If the argument is territorial integrity where does that leave Alsaka, Northern Ireland and even Denmark?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes - fair enough - we know that. But it goes no way towards justifying their claim.


I'm neither trying to justify their claim, not to dispute it. What's the point? There are many such claims around the world, some (extremely few - well, almost none) eventually after many years are settled peacefully, some are settled as a result of a popular uprising, some are settled via war, but there are a great many that remain unresolved - mostly the claims wax and wane, as is the case with Gibraltar, but they don't go away.

However IMO if you live in Spain you need to understand that the Spanish people (not just the government) do have a view that may well not align with yours and that nonetheless is worthy of a degree of respect.

And yes, there are many colonies that still exist around the world, and yes, Spain still has Ceuta. That is not of itself an argument against the claim on Gibraltar. And as for 'Gibraltarians', most of those living in Gibraltar are I suspect relatively recent arrivals without roots there and of those many likely have no intention of living out their days in Gibraltar, which makes the issue of 'self-determination' somewhat fraught.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> No because I'm not Gibraltarian.
> If I were it's very likely I'd feel very different.
> Surely we should listen to what the majority of Gibraltarians want and respect how they feel? If they want the status quo because it somehow makes them feel more British, so be it.
> Same with the Falklands.
> ...


But you said they wanted to "remain British". I suspect what that really means is they want to be anything but Spanish, which is understandable given what happened under Franco. But after Brexit this might be the lesser evil. You can't keep living in the past watching your economy collapse around you.

In fact, is there such a thing as Gibraltarian? Gibraltar is just the place where they live. it's a melting pot of many different cultures.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But you said they wanted to "remain British". I suspect what that really means is they want to be anything but Spanish, which is understandable given what happened under Franco. But after Brexit this might be the lesser evil. You can't keep living in the past watching your economy collapse around you.
> 
> In fact, is there such a thing as Gibraltarian? Gibraltar is just the place where they live. it's a melting pot of many different cultures.


I don't see how any of us can claim either to know why the people living in Gibraltar wish to remain British or even how 'native' these people are.
But that misses the main point which is what those living there want. 
Surely self-determination should apply to them as much as to the peoples of former Colonies in Africa and Asia and yes, should have done to Hong Kong too?
Or is there something different about people wanting to remain, as they would see it, British??


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> But you said they wanted to "remain British". I suspect what that really means is they want to be anything but Spanish, which is understandable given what happened under Franco. But after Brexit this might be the lesser evil. You can't keep living in the past watching your economy collapse around you.
> 
> In fact, is there such a thing as Gibraltarian? Gibraltar is just the place where they live. it's a melting pot of many different cultures.


Being Gibraltarian sounds something like being British then.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But you said they wanted to "remain British". I suspect what that really means is they want to be anything but Spanish, which is understandable given what happened under Franco. But after Brexit this might be the lesser evil. You can't keep living in the past watching your economy collapse around you.
> 
> In fact, is there such a thing as Gibraltarian? Gibraltar is just the place where they live. it's a melting pot of many different cultures.


Yes, a melting pot of many cultures all of which have voted overwhelming to stay British....They would describe themselves as Gibraltarian and do so. Why shouldn't they?
I wouldn't dismiss 'the place where they live' so casually. It might not be important to you but people have deep attachments to the place where they live, to their roots, their culture, their way of doing things. Wars have been fought over 'places where people live'. People fight to retain their culture, their established ways of life. 
We've seen how nationality, culture, ethnicity, transcend ideology and continue to thrive even under repressive regimes. How long did it take for the USSR to dissolve under the pressures of emerging but long suppressed cultures, ethnic groups, nationalities, religions?
I can't understand why the views and feelings of the peoples who live on this Rock are seemingly viewed as of lesser importance than the politics of Spain, historic claims etc. Would we be so wide-ranging in our arguments f we were dealing with a former African colony?
As for saying 'You can't keep living in the past with your economy collapsing around you'.....the unfortunate people living under Venezuelan, Cuban and Nicaraguan 'socialism' have had to do just that for decades and if they dare complain are likely to be jailed....


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Irrespective of views on Gibraltar, there is going to be an issue for a land-based EU border (as with Northern Ireland) that will need to be resolved and that may not be easy and whatever is agreed may very well not please everyone. France and Spain have all sorts of arrangements in place for areas in the Pyrenees that are working well, but they are both, and will both continue to be, in the EU. I would anticipate (hope) that border issues will be dealt with as part of security/defence.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, a melting pot of many cultures all of which have voted overwhelming to stay British....They would describe themselves as Gibraltarian and do so. Why shouldn't they?
> I wouldn't dismiss 'the place where they live' so casually. It might not be important to you but people have deep attachments to the place where they live, to their roots, their culture, their way of doing things. Wars have been fought over 'places where people live'. People fight to retain their culture, their established ways of life.
> We've seen how nationality, culture, ethnicity, transcend ideology and continue to thrive even under repressive regimes. How long did it take for the USSR to dissolve under the pressures of emerging but long suppressed cultures, ethnic groups, nationalities, religions?
> I can't understand why the views and feelings of the peoples who live on this Rock are seemingly viewed as of lesser importance than the politics of Spain, historic claims etc. Would we be so wide-ranging in our arguments f we were dealing with a former African colony?
> As for saying 'You can't keep living in the past with your economy collapsing around you'.....the unfortunate people living under Venezuelan, Cuban and Nicaraguan 'socialism' have had to do just that for decades and if they dare complain are likely to be jailed....


Culture? Gibraltar?  It's one of the most multicultural places in Europe! And they are hardly "oppressed".

British origin 27%
Spanish origin 24%
Italian/Genoese origin 20%
Portugese origin 10%
The rest are of Maltese, Moroccan, Sephardic Jewish French, Chinese etc origin.

The only thing they have in common is they hate the Spanish.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Culture? Gibraltar?  It's one of the most multicultural places in Europe! And they are hardly "oppressed".
> 
> British origin 27%
> Spanish origin 24%
> ...


What makes you think they hate the Spanish?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Posted for info only:

Four reasons Gibraltar should be Spanish - The Local


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Culture? Gibraltar?  It's one of the most multicultural places in Europe! And they are hardly "oppressed".
> 
> British origin 27%
> Spanish origin 24%
> ...


I don't remember claiming that there was a Gibraltarian culture or that the Gibraltarians were 'oppressed'.
Yes, it is very multi-cultural...which makes it all the more remarkable that 98% voted for the status quo.
I can't understand why the feelings of the people who live there are being pushed aside. Surely it's the most important factor? 
I can understand why some Gibraltarians might have strong feelings of antipathy towards Spain. Being separated from friends and family for years might have played a part in creating that hostility? That and the border 'difficulties'?

Is there perhaps a prejudice against Gibraltar because it's prosperous, is a tax haven (like many other parts of the world, Andorra being an example that Spain rarely if ever complains about), I wonder?
I don't know many Gibraltarians but those I do know have all suffered family separation from Franco's border closure, are far from being wealthy and are firm in their desire to remain British.

You and I might not give tuppence for what nationality we are designated but all over the world, many more people do care than don't. Some were and are prepared to shed their own and other people's blood over it. Not something to be viewed lightly.
There is strong feeling in the Campo de Gibraltar, La Linea and other municipalities that the status quo be kept.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> What makes you think they hate the Spanish?


lots of things. Talking to people who work there or have lived there (both Spanish and British). The way the local media consistently produce anti-Spanish propaganda. The continued refusal to even consider joint sovereignty.

It's a knee-jerk thing, not necessarily deep-rooted or aimed at individuals. A bit like how some Brits say they can't stand the Yanks but get on fine with them face to face.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't remember claiming that there was a Gibraltarian culture or that the Gibraltarians were 'oppressed'.
> Yes, it is very multi-cultural...which makes it all the more remarkable that 98% voted for the status quo.
> I can't understand why the feelings of the people who live there are being pushed aside. Surely it's the most important factor?
> I can understand why some Gibraltarians might have strong feelings of antipathy towards Spain. Being separated from friends and family for years might have played a part in creating that hostility? That and the border 'difficulties'?
> ...


But Mary, their feelings AREN'T being pushed aside. Unless you count the fact that they nearly all voted to stay in the EU.

I'm not sure why you think they are so hard done by, comparing them to African colonies or Venezuela.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> lots of things. Talking to people who work there or have lived there (both Spanish and British). The way the local media consistently produce anti-Spanish propaganda. The continued refusal to even consider joint sovereignty.
> 
> It's a knee-jerk thing, not necessarily deep-rooted or aimed at individuals. A bit like how some Brits say they can't stand the Yanks but get on fine with them face to face.


I don't even think they hate Spain let alone the Spanish.

They don't want to _be_ Spanish but that's different. 

Would you say that the Spanish hate Gibraltarians?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I don't even think they hate Spain let alone the Spanish.
> 
> They don't want to _be_ Spanish but that's different.
> 
> Would you say that the Spanish hate Gibraltarians?


I would say they hate the Gibraltar government. Same basis - anti-Gibraltar propaganda in Spanish media, complaints about them screwing up the fishing grounds, etc etc. They make jokes about the _llanitos_ (Spanish-speaking Gibraltarians) the same way the Brits used to make jokes about the Irish. But I don't imagine this would apply at the level of individuals, any more than the other way round. 

I was being flippant when I said the only thing Gibraltar's different cultural groups have in common was that they hate the Spanish. I'm sorry if that didn't come over. I probably should have said "hate the Spanish government". 

Do a Facebook search for "Gibraltar is British" or "Gibraltar es Británico" groups and you'll see some examples.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But Mary, their feelings AREN'T being pushed aside. Unless you count the fact that they nearly all voted to stay in the EU.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think they are so hard done by, comparing them to African colonies or Venezuela.



But again, I didn't say they were being pushed aside. I said that the views of the inhabitants should be paramount. If the majority want to stay British on their (IMO) horrible rock then let them get on with it.
I feel the same about the Falklands, another (again imo) god-forsaken place, from what I've seen in photos and on tv.
No way are they hard done by, I didn't say that either. I certainly haven't compared Gibraltar to Africa or Venezuela. I mentioned Africa since we gave our former colonies independence because they wanted self-determination and Venezuela because you mentioned people trapped in a collapsing economy and that's an accurate description of a country you used as a kind of warning of the fate that you think might befall Gibraltar.
My point is simply this: we argue, rightly, for to people's right self-determination.
If we do so when people do not want to be British, e.g former colonies, then why not when, for reasons best known to themselves, they want to be British?
It seems to me that considerations like the fact it's a tax haven, Spanish 'national pride', there is smuggling, really are less important than listening to the majority.
After our last visit some time ago I swore I'd never go to Gibraltar again, not even for OH's rolling tobacco and Quorn.
It depresses me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But again, I didn't say they were being pushed aside. I said that the views of the inhabitants should be paramount. If the majority want to stay British on their (IMO) horrible rock then let them get on with it.
> I feel the same about the Falklands, another (again imo) god-forsaken place, from what I've seen in photos and on tv.
> No way are they hard done by, I didn't say that either. I certainly haven't compared Gibraltar to Africa or Venezuela. I mentioned Africa since we gave our former colonies independence because they wanted self-determination and Venezuela because you mentioned people trapped in a collapsing economy and that's an accurate description of a country you used as a kind of warning of the fate that you think might befall Gibraltar.
> My point is simply this: we argue, rightly, for to people's right self-determination.
> ...


OK, I should obviously read your posts more thoroughly. 

It still doesn't alter the fact that if Gibraltarians weren't bombarded with anti-Spanish propaganda on a daily basis they might eventually see the economic benefits of joint sovereignty post Brexit - remaining British but retaining the benefits of EU membership.

All academic now as I said earlier, because the Spanish offer is off the table.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, I should obviously read your posts more thoroughly.
> 
> It still doesn't alter the fact that if Gibraltarians weren't bombarded with anti-Spanish propaganda on a daily basis they might eventually see the economic benefits of joint sovereignty post Brexit - remaining British but retaining the benefits of EU membership.
> 
> All academic now as I said earlier, because the Spanish offer is off the table.


Maybe my unclear posting, not your careless reading!!

And yes, they might. But I suspect they might not.
As I said, people are prepared to kill others for the sake of nationality. In my opinion and I'm sure yours but people are prone to irrationality as we know only too well.....

And yes, academic. 
I often wonder at the fact you cross what is really an imaginary line into a world that is so different from the one you've just left....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe my unclear posting, not your careless reading!!
> 
> And yes, they might. But I suspect they might not.
> As I said, people are prepared to kill others for the sake of nationality. In my opinion and I'm sure yours but people are prone to irrationality as we know only too well.....
> ...


I only go there to get a flight to the UK and the occasional foray into the Waitrose section at Eroski, just over the border. I have a friend who works opposite Morrisons so he gets my teabags for me.

Thought I spotted quorn in Mercadona the other day and it's definitely available in Carrefour. One day I will find out what it actually is.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I only go there to get a flight to the UK and the occasional foray into the Waitrose section at Eroski, just over the border. I have a friend who works opposite Morrisons so he gets my teabags for me.
> 
> Thought I spotted quorn in Mercadona the other day and it's definitely available in Carrefour. One day I will find out what it actually is.


I'll look more carefully in Estepona Carrefour. Our local Mercadona doesn't have it.
I'm not sure what it's made of but the mince makes really good burgers and spag bol sauce.
You can get it n loads of different shapes and forms -chicken chunks, lamb strips, sausages, burgers, pies, fillets....It does need spicing up but it's veggie and low fat.
I go for it more after the Spanish doctor at my last health check told me bluntly and brutally, I thought, that if I didn't lose weight I'd need new knees!!!! And I can squeeze into a Size 14 still.....
Spanish doctors seem to tell it like it is, in my experience.....I was told when first diagnosed with cardio problems that I was being sent to a specialist ASAP as 'if you no see him soon your heart will go 'boom boom very fast and you will die or you will have a stroke and be..' (at this point the doc makes a grotesque curled up shape and assumes a quite manic expression).
Very effective approach for both knees and heart, better for me at least than a soothing bedside manner. Shock treatment works.. I'm cutting calories, exercising more and saw a specialist who got things controlled.


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