# Spain is where British expats are happiest, survey finds



## Editor (Aug 20, 2009)

British expats are happiest in Spain, followed by Canada and Germany, according to new research which also examined their cost of living and financial well being. New Zealand ranks highest on quality of life and tax free United Arab Emirates rated as the best destination for expats’ financial prospects. The survey by Lloyds TSB International [...]

Click to read the full news article: Spain is where British expats are happiest, survey finds...
Please come back to discuss the story here in this thread.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Brb, packing belongings to Spain.


No, but that's great news. Just makes me more excited to move there in a few years, but I know it won't be a walk in the park.

Also, I'm suprised that Germany was ranked so high and NZ so low. British people happy in Germany? The irony! 

Also, this further raises my suspicions that NZ is a boring country.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sirtravelot said:


> Brb, packing belongings to Spain.
> 
> 
> No, but that's great news. Just makes me more excited to move there in a few years, but I know it won't be a walk in the park.
> ...


Don't take it too seriously, it's an online survey of a few Lloyds International customers, not really a representative sample.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2012)

Clearly they're not reading this article, or affected by it: 

Bank of Spain predicts deep recession this year · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Well I'm happy


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Yep, me too but that's as much to do with the fact that I am retired and can do what I like, as the fact that I live in Spain.


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

I must say that the findings of the survey are totally inconsistent with any anecdotal conclusions you could draw from reading any expat forum on Spain including this one. Perhaps it's just that forum contributors have more to grumble about than anyone else.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> I must say that the findings of the survey are totally inconsistent with any anecdotal conclusions you could draw from reading any expat forum on Spain including this one. Perhaps it's just that forum contributors have more to grumble about than anyone else.


I don't think any of us really grumble about our lives here - I love mine 


which doesn't mean I would advise anyone with a job in the UK - & especially if they have kids - to chuck it all away on the almost certainly vain hope of getting something/anything workwise right now



and anyone who did wouldn't be giving good advice, would they?


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

You're probably right that contributors are mainly advising against the prevailing conditions for employment in Spain. Unfortunately to the reader it usually comes across as unremittingly negative. Very few people bother to temper an unpleasant message with positive comments about other aspects of life in Spain and if they do it is usually smothered under the negative aspects.
I'm not saying that contributors should change, only that the impression to a casual reader over the last 24 months would not convey happy expats in Spain.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nigeljay said:


> You're probably right that contributors are mainly advising against the prevailing conditions for employment in Spain. Unfortunately to the reader it usually comes across as unremittingly negative. Very few people bother to temper an unpleasant message with positive comments about other aspects of life in Spain and if they do it is usually smothered under the negative aspects.
> I'm not saying that contributors should change, only that the impression to a casual reader over the last 24 months would not convey happy expats in Spain.


I think we all try to convey that Spain is a great place to be if you don't have to find work. It would be wrong to pretend everything is wonderful and you can just come over and get a nice little job in a bar or beauty salon.

Pointing out the disadvantages is what makes the forum different from a Costa Blanca property developer's sales pitch, no?


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I think we all try to convey that Spain is a great place to be if you don't have to find work. It would be wrong to pretend everything is wonderful and you can just come over and get a nice little job in a bar or beauty salon.
> 
> Pointing out the disadvantages is what makes the forum different from a Costa Blanca property developer's sales pitch, no?


I'm not criticising, only commenting how it comes across to me, not only on this forum but on others as well. I hear what you say and your correct that people want candid comment. It's just a shame it's rarely of the happy variety. The survey was supposedly of expats and these forums are where the expats have their say. I was just pointing out the apparent inconsistency between the results of the survey and the overall feeling from the forums.

I don't think I can add any more on this.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> You're probably right that contributors are mainly advising against the prevailing conditions for employment in Spain. Unfortunately to the reader it usually comes across as unremittingly negative. Very few people bother to temper an unpleasant message with positive comments about other aspects of life in Spain and if they do it is usually smothered under the negative aspects.
> I'm not saying that contributors should change, only that the impression to a casual reader over the last 24 months would not convey happy expats in Spain.


My thoughts as I am one of the chief contributors of unpleasant messages, AKA _what's happening in Spain today_.

You seem to think that posting negative comments about the employment situation in Spain is not the correct way to behave. If a person of working age is asking about the prospect of "making it" in Spain, sometimes because the unemployment situation in the UK is "terrible", do you think it's reasonable to talk about sea views, being able to get films in English and the hospitality of the people? 
Of course it makes depressing reading to the casual reader, and to the person who is really doing their homework and reads in any depth, it must be crushing. But why would people bother using this forum if the contributors "tempered their unpleasant message"??
I am telling Brits who are looking for a better working life, a better future for their kids and more opportunities what life is like here for people who have little to offer Spain at this moment. 
However, all of this does not mean that *I'm* not happy living in Spain. One has nothing to do with the other.

Hoping this makes things clearer for you.
PW


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

I was perfectly clear thanks and don't take well to being patronised.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> I was perfectly clear thanks and don't take well to being patronised.


Giving an opinion, explaining a point of view is not being patronising!

IMHO you have understood little, or possibly nothing of what's goping on here in the forum.

Still the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same, or so I'm told.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I think we all try to convey that Spain is a great place to be if you don't have to find work. It would be wrong to pretend everything is wonderful and you can just come over and get a nice little job in a bar or beauty salon.
> 
> Pointing out the disadvantages is what makes the forum different from a Costa Blanca property developer's sales pitch, no?


Heck, even my "*Super Spanish man*" husband said tonight that we ought to seriously consider leaving.


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## Kalimera (Oct 19, 2011)

The grass isn't greener on either side - but the sun is certainly brighter!


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Giving an opinion, explaining a point of view is not being patronising!
> 
> IMHO you have understood little, or possibly nothing of what's goping on here in the forum.
> 
> Still the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same, or so I'm told.


I don't really think that understanding what goes on on the forum is really that difficult. I've run large businesses and have a doctorate so I think I can just about manage it.

Anyway my point was one of perception not of contributors intent but I seems to have hit a sensitive area so I apologise. It clearly is not done to even advance mild comment on forums in general let alone this one specifically without getting an implication of being slow on the uptake.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Nigeljay said:


> I'm not criticising, only commenting how it comes across to me, not only on this forum but on others as well. I hear what you say and your correct that people want candid comment. It's just a shame it's rarely of the happy variety. The survey was supposedly of expats and these forums are where the expats have their say. I was just pointing out the apparent inconsistency between the results of the survey and the overall feeling from the forums.
> 
> I don't think I can add any more on this.


This is an expat forum, people will talk about issues they come across in daily life, share the burden a tad. It would be a dull place if folk only talked about the sunshine in the summer or how well their tomatoes are growing (dull place to live too).

Whats not to like about Spain, Cyprus, Canada, Australia or New Zealand if you have a nice home and a regular income without the worry of having to work to put food on your table.

The 'negative' vibes put out are very often in reply to the so often asked question about moving to Spain and working there.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nigeljay said:


> I don't really think that understanding what goes on on the forum is really that difficult. I've run large businesses and have a doctorate so I think I can just about manage it.
> 
> Anyway my point was one of perception not of contributors intent but I seems to have hit a sensitive area so I apologise. It clearly is not done to even advance mild comment on forums in general let alone this one specifically without getting an implication of being slow on the uptake.


Why not set an example then, help counter the perceived excessive negativity and add your own responses to new posters asking for advice on moving to Spain? Everyone has an equal right to comment!


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

Nigeljay said:


> You're probably right that contributors are mainly advising against the prevailing conditions for employment in Spain. Unfortunately to the reader it usually comes across as unremittingly negative. Very few people bother to temper an unpleasant message with positive comments about other aspects of life in Spain and if they do it is usually smothered under the negative aspects.
> I'm not saying that contributors should change, only that the impression to a casual reader over the last 24 months would not convey happy expats in Spain.


I think there is a broad difference between "unremittingly negative" and "realistic". Spain is suffering very badly in the global economic downturn. I, personally, think it is better to be honest about the realities of living in Spain or other places, as opposed to having a rose-tinted brain and overlooking what is glaringly obvious all around.

I love living here, but life can be very difficult at times. For me, the past few months have been utter hell, mainly due to problems in UK, but they amplify problems for me here - considerably. It doesn`t change my desire to continue living here, but being sensible (for a change) I`m having to rapidly change some plans and resign myself to going to blighty or Germany for a longer work stint than previously forecasted.

So, that`s not negative, more a serious case of reality biting. Spain is a wonderful country, with amazing people, excellent weather, great food and much, much more. But do not be foolish and expect it all to be perfect. Spain has many cultural differences which you will come up against, time and again. Dealing with government agencies or utilities companies will (can?) make you very, very sad and sometimes lose the will to live. On the other hand, sometimes they surprise you with unexpected efficiency!

Personally, I don`t find this forum to be that negative, but there is an incredibly broad spectrum of people from all walks and many countries represented here. Whilst I don´t always agree with what people are saying (you know who you are :evil there are some very salient points raised here, that can be useful to newbies and long-term expats alike.

I`m glad you have a doctorate and run a "large" business, but quite how that has a bearing on things is beyond me. It doesn`t mean you are a more intelligent person, or even a better person. You simply passed an exam. I think you will find some extremely clever people on here that don`t feel the need to get out their "sistificates" in an attempt out out-trump others. So, wind yer neck in and see that people here are, generally, trying to help others. To me, that makes this forum an excellent resource and occasional place to hang out a talk nonsense.

For the record, I have a CSE in Biology and Metalwork, so if you want your cat welded, I`m your man...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Yossa said:


> Personally, I don`t find this forum to be that negative, but there is an incredibly broad spectrum of people from all walks and many countries represented here. Whilst I don´t always agree with what people are saying (you know who you are :evil there are some very salient points raised here, that can be useful to newbies and long-term expats alike.
> 
> I`m glad you have a doctorate and run a "large" business, but quite how that has a bearing on things is beyond me. It doesn`t mean you are a more intelligent person, or even a better person. You simply passed an exam. I think you will find some extremely clever people on here that don`t feel the need to get out their "sistificates" in an attempt out out-trump others. So, wind yer neck in and see that people here are, generally, trying to help others. To me, that makes this forum an excellent resource and occasional place to hang out a talk nonsense.
> 
> For the record, I have a CSE in Biology and Metalwork, so if you want your cat welded, I`m your man...


Yossa!
I must say I've missed you!
Thank you for giving me that laugh this morning.
I am university educated, but look where it got me. Couldn't weld a cat if I tried!!!


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

I acknowledge that. I suppose I was just bemoaning the fact that there are less positive threads/comments than negative ones. Times are tough for many everywhere but especially for people of working age in Spain. This has to be said but the frequency of saying it gives an impression from the forum that is inconsistent with expats in Spain being the happiest. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to discuss whether people thought the survey gave an accurate impression.


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

By the way apologies for traipsing out my credentials. I don't normally do that but I was somewhat irritated by being told that the contents of the forum were too difficult for me to understand.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> By the way apologies for traipsing out my credentials. I don't normally do that but I was somewhat irritated by being told that the contents of the forum were too difficult for me to understand.


Actually, no one said it was too difficult for you to understand, that was your own interpretation, I just said that it seemed you hadn't understood.
Anyway, I'm a push over where I see an apology, even if it wasn't meant for me, so let's move on.
I agree that we should concentrate on the article itself and whether the content was accurate...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Back to topic, what a good idea!

As I said early on, these surveys are carried out by a bank using online questionnaire techniques like the ones we sometimes see in the left-hand column here on the forum - Would the collapse of the Euro affect your sex life - yes or no", that sort of thing. Since "Are you happy?" can change from day to day depending on a person's mood and circumstances, it's a bit of a risky survey topic to say the least, but "Are you happier since you moved to xxxx" is almost certainly going to elicit a positive response, unless somebody is desperately miserable and convinced they made the wrong decision (or maybe it was made for them).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> I was perfectly clear thanks and don't take well to being patronised.


I'm very happy in Spain. I have an income and capital sufficient for my requirements, live in large house with a pool in a bourgois Spanish neighbourhood, have friends, family with property nearby and am healthy, fit and mobile.
I would wager that 90% of satisfied immigrants -and we are immigrants, not 'expats', a concept invented to give British immigrants an exaggerated sense of their importance - fall into the category I am fortunate to find myself in.
Who's patronising? You have merely been given a full picture of how life in Spain really is.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Back to topic, what a good idea!
> 
> As I said early on, these surveys are carried out by a bank using online questionnaire techniques like the ones we sometimes see in the left-hand column here on the forum - Would the collapse of the Euro affect your sex life - yes or no", that sort of thing. Since "Are you happy?" can change from day to day depending on a person's mood and circumstances, it's a bit of a risky survey topic to say the least, but "Are you happier since you moved to xxxx" is almost certainly going to elicit a positive response, unless somebody is desperately miserable and convinced they made the wrong decision (or maybe it was made for them).


You are a refined person -or are compared to me - so I'm surmising that what you are really saying is that the survey, like most, is a load of *******...

Wow...this site can detect vulgarity in several languages....Impressive or what...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> You are a refined person -or are compared to me - so I'm surmising that what you are really saying is that the survey, like most, is a load of *******...
> 
> Wow...this site can detect vulgarity in several languages....Impressive or what...


yes, we recently fed the sweary filter 

when was the last time you went to S****horpe ?


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## James3214 (Jun 25, 2009)

Well I'm happy! But obviously not as much as you Brits in Spain and Canada! I think I am just missing a bit of sun and sangria or the Rocky Mountains?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> Heck, even my "*Super Spanish man*" husband said tonight that we ought to seriously consider leaving.


it's horrible, isn't it?

I'm happy here, it's my home, and it's where my kids have grown up from little girls into young ladies (one of them would kill me for saying she's a young lady though )

but we have to put them, their education & their future first - as you have to put yours first

what is happening in the education system here is quite frankly, frightening, with schools in my area possibly closing within days due to lack of funds - what happens to those kids?


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

Unfortunately the App on the iPad doesn't seem to give you the option of replying to a specific post with the attendant quote. Anyway mrypg, interestingly enough I don't remember seeing a statement such as yours on the forum very often (I.e. 90% of expats share a comfortable, indeed to many idyllic, lifestyle) accepting that it is an anecdotal comment. If true then you'd expect the expats(immigrants) in Spain to be happy. I'm taking the statement at face value and am presuming there is no irony in it.
Do I not get this impression from the orum because I tend to dip into it rather than read everything or is it that this type of comment is rarely made.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> Unfortunately the App on the iPad doesn't seem to give you the option of replying to a specific post with the attendant quote. Anyway mrypg, interestingly enough I don't remember seeing a statement such as yours on the forum very often (I.e. 90% of expats share a comfortable, indeed to many idyllic, lifestyle) accepting that it is an anecdotal comment. If true then you'd expect the expats(immigrants) in Spain to be happy. I'm taking the statement at face value and am presuming there is no irony in it.
> Do I not get this impression from the orum because I tend to dip into it rather than read everything or is it that this type of comment is rarely made.


I think what you see, especially this time of year, is a reat number of posts from people who want to come & live in Spain - those who have an income from elsewhere, be it pension or business, will be told that it's a great place to live

if you look at my last post on this thread you will see that we as a family are very happy here - but are worried about a few things happening in Spain & specifically in my area at the moment - which won't affect anyone without kids

however - & it's a big however - it seems that a majority of those who come to ask questions will need to work, often they have a family to support - and sometimes their kids will be too old to manage in the Spanish state system, so they would have the added financial burden of private education

you must agree that to advise anyone in that situation to 'go for it' would be wrong

as someone else already said - Spain is a fantastic place to live if you *have* money

but at the moment it's a dreadful place to start out if you need to *earn* money..............especially if you have a stable income where you are living now


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## James3214 (Jun 25, 2009)

Yossa said:


> For the record, I have a CSE in Biology and Metalwork, so if you want your cat welded, I`m your man...


I must admit Yossa, I chuckled when I read your quote and it reminded me of my own foolish attempts at trying to become a french polisher through attempting 'O' levels in French and woodwork. I failed both miserably of course! Where did it all go wrong eh?

By the way Cat Welders are very much in demand in Germany at the moment!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I think what you see, especially this time of year, is a reat number of posts from people who want to come & live in Spain - those who have an income from elsewhere, be it pension or business, will be told that it's a great place to live
> 
> if you look at my last post on this thread you will see that we as a family are very happy here - but are worried about a few things happening in Spain & specifically in my area at the moment - which won't affect anyone without kids
> 
> ...


And , if you look further back on the forum, even as late as 2009 you'll see people were saying _

Well, come and give it a go_. 

That then became _
Don't burn all your bridges

_and quite quickly evolved into _
You have children to support, you don't speak Spanish and you want to find work??!! *No way José.

*_


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> Unfortunately the App on the iPad doesn't seem to give you the option of replying to a specific post with the attendant quote. Anyway mrypg, interestingly enough I don't remember seeing a statement such as yours on the forum very often (I.e. 90% of expats share a comfortable, indeed to many idyllic, lifestyle) accepting that it is an anecdotal comment. If true then you'd expect the expats(immigrants) in Spain to be happy. I'm taking the statement at face value and am presuming there is no irony in it.
> Do I not get this impression from the orum because I tend to dip into it rather than read everything or is it that this type of comment is rarely made.


Sorry but you are so wrong.
I very often post that people who for whatever reason don't need to work can be happy in Spain.
Buit I am one of the gloom merchants who inform those seeking the 'Spanish dream' and looking for work that they should stay home.
But happiness is not always connected with financial security, far from it.
It can be a reflection of a state of mind not of the size of your bank balance.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> I don't really think that understanding what goes on on the forum is really that difficult. I've run large businesses and have a doctorate so I think I can just about manage it.
> 
> Anyway my point was one of perception not of contributors intent but I seems to have hit a sensitive area so I apologise. It clearly is not done to even advance mild comment on forums in general let alone this one specifically without getting an implication of being slow on the uptake.



I didn't see that implication anywhere. As for having a Doctorate...I have to chuckle. Apparently, as I heard on a podcast from 'The Economist', Long Term Capital Management had six Nobel Prizewinners for Economics on its Board - all with PhDs of course.
One highly intelligent guy constructed a fabulous computer model which was designed to predict commodity prices, market shares and other data. The problem was, it bore no relation to the real world. And we all know what happened to LTCM.
I've owned medium-sized businesses and have gained degrees from one of the world's top four Universities (apparently it is so ranked). Yet I meet on a daily basis people I would consider more intelligent than I .
Now that is not meant to be patronising but to point out that you are quite incorrect in your assumption as to the reception of criticism on this forum, the most articulate and enlightened of all the immigrant boards.
The situation here is simple: if you have money and don't need to work, you'll be happy in Spain.
Unless you have a well-paid, secure job, you won't. Period.
Insecurity and happiness don't go hand in hand.
When I realised that the survey originated from LloydsInternational, I immediately discarded it as being of no worth whatsoever.
Instead of wasting time on useless surveys Lloyds, in all its manifestations, whether International, Offshore or whatever, should learn to carry out its core business, managing clients' money, with efficiency and courtesy.
Perhaps then this useless apology for a bank wouldn't have to keep paying me and others compensation for mishandling accounts.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Spike Milligan said when talking of his bouts of depression something like 

"Its much nicer being depressed when you have a few bob in the bank"


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I didn't see that implication anywhere. As for having a Doctorate...I have to chuckle. Apparently, as I heard on a podcast from 'The Economist', Long Term Capital Management had six Nobel Prizewinners for Economics on its Board - all with PhDs of course.
> One highly intelligent guy constructed a fabulous computer model which was designed to predict commodity prices, market shares and other data. The problem was, it bore no relation to the real world. And we all know what happened to LTCM.
> I've owned medium-sized businesses and have gained degrees from one of the world's top four Universities (apparently it is so ranked). Yet I meet on a daily basis people I would consider more intelligent than I .
> Now that is not meant to be patronising but to point out that you are quite incorrect in your assumption as to the reception of criticism on this forum, the most articulate and enlightened of all the immigrant boards.
> ...


As I'm sure you will know, perception is not necessarily the same as reality. In an earlier post you said I was so wrong in my view of the forum. However I was commenting on my perception and by definition that can't be wrong. If you write something down and when I read it I take a message totally different from what you as the writer intended, the blame is at least equally shared. Surveys often measure perception rather than reality. You can dismiss them statistically of course but it would be unwise to dismiss them because the result does not mirror actuality. That difference is telling you something. Here I was pointing out the difference between the results of the survey and my perception of happiness taken from discussions on immigrant( your phrase) forums on Spain. My perception may be wrong in reality but it remains a valid perception.
By the way, I may be wrong in this but I thought I remembered that you used to be a headmistress. If so your dismissal of qualifications is unusual. Also by the way degrees don't give you common sense but they do illustrate a capability to apply yourself to research and learning.
I've said it before but with that i really will bow out of this discussion as I think I have no more constructive to add.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Well, if we must count qualifications....
I have 2 first class honours degrees, an MA and a Doctorate.
They served me well in the UK until around 2004, by which time government changes had severely impacted the high ed market and I, along with many others, was made redundant.
Nowadays those degrees serve me even less well.
In the UK, I work in call centres, and in Spain I write advertising copy for whoever will pay me (usually US companies).

Am I and my husband happy in Spain?
I speak from 2 views...

My husband is retired, so he should count as someone most likely to be happy in Spain. But truth be told, his pensions have been so badly hit by the exchange rate (although that has recently improved), that happiness really doesn't come into it. He is simply content to have enough money to pay his portion of the bills each month.

I still work, but the only work I can get in Spain is online and online work does not provide the money it did even one year ago.
So I am constantly falling behind in my portion of the budget. This does not make for happiness.
Bad as call centre work is (and it is horrible...), I am better off financially when working in those call centres in the UK and paying my portion of our Spain budget from the other side of the channel.

Actually, it is a long time since happiness was the main thing on our minds. 

As to the remark on qualifications, all I will say is that, although they do not give anyone common sense, neither does a lack of them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Well, if we must count qualifications....
> I have 2 first class honours degrees, an MA and a Doctorate.
> They served me well in the UK until around 2004, by which time government changes had severely impacted the high ed market and I, along with many others, was made redundant.
> Nowadays those degrees serve me even less well.
> ...



It's not so much the class of degree one has, it's the institution awarding it that counts these days. Since so many young people leave Universities these days with degrees employers can pick and choose. I have a friend who will employ only those with degrees from Oxbridge or London. I don't know whether the quality is that much better...
The market is so glutted with people with degrees these days that we used to get applications -more often than not semi-literate - from graduates for quite menial office jobs.
I guess any job is worth having nowadays.
I think it would be better for society as a whole if we viewed education less as a tool of social engineering and more as a method of initiating our young people -all of them - into the skills, knowledge and independent thought and judgment needed to be a productive and useful member of society.
What strikes me most from my years in education is our sheer waste of young talent.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, we recently fed the sweary filter
> 
> when was the last time you went to S****horpe ?


Please can we NOT go there! I can't help thinking of that terribly rude joke every time I hear the name of that place.

As for these "surveys", most of them are attempts to feed some advertorial and are based on a totally unrepresentative sample. It is absolutely no good asking just 3 people for an opinion and getting two answers that 'sort of' agree, then claiming that more than half all expats surveyed say that they have had enough of the silly inaccurate surveys. Although the results of the survey are accurate, they are totally meaningless. 

BTW as far as the survey is concerned - I am an OAP and very happy and content with my lot in Spain but if it helps to prevent any more whinging Brits moving to the village where I live, then I will tell any opinion poll that this is a bl**dy awful place to live. 

Retired, GCE O level in 6 subjects - could not afford, financially, to go and waste three years of my life at university getting a degree that would be absolutely no use whatsoever to me, my family or my country!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

James3214 said:


> I must admit Yossa, I chuckled when I read your quote and it reminded me of my own foolish attempts at trying to become a french polisher through attempting 'O' levels in French and woodwork. I failed both miserably of course! Where did it all go wrong eh?
> 
> By the way Cat Welders are very much in demand in Germany at the moment!


I CAN French-polish and I can assure that neither French, nor woodwork nor Polish are of any use whatsoever.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

James3214 said:


> Well I'm happy! But obviously not as much as you Brits in Spain and Canada! I think I am just missing a bit of sun and sangria or the Rocky Mountains?


Hey, but your dear leader says we're doing it all wrong! 
Crud, I'm going to go have a glass of rioja to wash my working-age immigrant pain down the drain.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> what is happening in the education system here is quite frankly, frightening, with schools in my area possibly closing within days due to lack of funds - what happens to those kids?


Do your kids at least have heat? Please keep us updated. I am fascinated as to what is happening - and terrified. I don't understand how the locals haven't yet strung their leaders up by the toes.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> yes, we recently fed the sweary filter
> 
> when was the last time you went to S****horpe ?




So.....what if I wrote something obscene in Czech? Could it cope with that?
Problem is, I know how to say a lot of Czech obscenities but don't know how to spell them....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BTW.
Here's an example of a very recent thread where someone was given positive advice about living in Spain - a 74 year old pensioner
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...0785-my-mother-thinking-relocating-spain.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> BTW.
> Here's an example of a very recent thread where someone was given positive advice about living in Spain - a 74 year old pensioner
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...0785-my-mother-thinking-relocating-spain.html


Yes we did...because she ticks all the right boxes.
Incidentally, does anyone think that lady should learn Spanish?
She is looking for a community where at her time of life she can fit in, feel at home and enjoy the climate without experiencing too much of a culture shock.
Good luck to her. I hope she enjoys her new life in Spain. It could put years on her....in the positive sense, that is.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes we did...because she ticks all the right boxes.
> Incidentally, does anyone think that lady should learn Spanish?
> She is looking for a community where at her time of life she can fit in, feel at home and enjoy the climate without experiencing too much of a culture shock.
> Good luck to her. I hope she enjoys her new life in Spain. It could put years on her....in the positive sense, that is.


Of course! How else is she going to experience The Real Spain?:bolt:


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

jimenato said:


> Of course! How else is she going to experience The Real Spain?:bolt:


&*+%$·(/*"??(&%·&%!!!!!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> It's not so much the class of degree one has, it's the institution awarding it that counts these days. Since so many young people leave Universities these days with degrees employers can pick and choose. I have a friend who will employ only those with degrees from Oxbridge or London. I don't know whether the quality is that much better...
> The market is so glutted with people with degrees these days that we used to get applications -more often than not semi-literate - from graduates for quite menial office jobs.
> I guess any job is worth having nowadays.
> *I think it would be better for society as a whole if we viewed education less as a tool of social engineering and more as a method of initiating our young people -all of them - into the skills, knowledge and independent thought and judgment needed to be a productive and useful member of society*.
> What strikes me most from my years in education is our sheer waste of young talent.


Agreed. Especially the part I highlighted.

When I do my call centre work, I am usually surrounded by young people with degrees, most of them serving time there until something better comes along (whenever that will be...). 
And these are not just the social or cultural type degrees. I have worked alongside maths and science graduates too.

I personally think that anyone who has the level of intelligence required and the inclination should be able to do a degree course. Or be able to take further or higher education to suit their strengths and preferences.
It's just a shame that the main 'industry' in the UK is nowadays based upon customer service.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

jimenato said:


> Of course! How else is she going to experience The Real Spain?:bolt:


Lol!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> Do your kids at least have heat? Please keep us updated. I am fascinated as to what is happening - and terrified. I don't understand how the locals haven't yet strung their leaders up by the toes.


at the moment, yes they do have heat


my daughters' school isn't one of those faced with imminent closure, although a couple of the teachers have told my elder dd that it might in fact close at the end of this school year.

there is another secondary school in the town, so I guess everyone would end up there - but with some classes already with 35 + in them god alone knows how many that would increase to 

that school also has a reputation for not dealing too well with 'foreigners' - even those who have been here most of their lives 

to say that I am seriously concerned would be an understatement


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> It's just a shame that the main 'industry' in the UK is nowadays based upon customer service.


Or *non*-service!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Or *non*-service!


Couldn't agree more.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> there is another secondary school in the town, so I guess everyone would end up there - but with some classes already *with 35 + *in them god alone knows how many that would increase to


I'm not even certain that's legal. If I remember properly, that would be *illegal* up here. It's 25/class for primary and somewhere around 33 for secondary. 

But, oh, Camps is innocent so all is ok.

Oh, Valencia.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> I'm not even certain that's legal. If I remember properly, that would be *illegal* up here. It's 25/class for primary and somewhere around 33 for secondary.
> 
> But, oh, Camps is innocent so all is ok.
> 
> Oh, Valencia.


yes I *know *it isn't legal.........even here......_right now_


but they do have a way of changing the laws to suit the situation 

thing is, if schools _are_ closing - where will the kids go if they don't increase class sizes?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes I *know *it isn't legal.........even here......_right now_
> 
> 
> but they do have a way of changing the laws to suit the situation
> ...


Which was exactly what I said on another thread a few days ago. 
Rules are only rules, laws are only laws until they are broken, changed or amended and there's nothing like a financial crisis to get governments started on that path. This is your salary as a civil servant? This is the pension you will get awarded as you are looking after an elderly relative? This the stipulated class size? Ah no, wait a minute - that was _pre_ crisis


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> yes I *know *it isn't legal.........even here......_right now_
> 
> 
> but they do have a way of changing the laws to suit the situation
> ...


I imagine/hope the unions are up in arms?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which was exactly what I said on another thread a few days ago.
> Rules are only rules, laws are only laws until they are broken, changed or amended and there's nothing like a financial crisis to get governments started on that path. This is your salary as a civil servant? This is the pension you will get awarded as you are looking after an elderly relative? This the stipulated class size? Ah no, wait a minute - that was _pre_ crisis


I'm taking advantage of _Día del Docente_ to start my second US job application. OH and I are both pretty terrified.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> .
> It's just a shame that the main 'industry' in the UK is nowadays based upon customer service.


Well, we can thank you-know-who for that, she who destroyed more of Britain's manufacturing than Goering's Luftwaffe...
Back on topic....service industries such as tourism play such a major role in Spain's economy that as I said earlier it's 'normal' for a large proportion of Spaniards to work in the tourist industry.
Whether this is a 'good thing' or not is debatable. Tourism in any country is a fickle industry, easily swayed by all kinds of external factors.
But tourism in Spain isn't just the Costas, it includes the major cities with their museums, art galleries and other cultural attractions. It includes pueblos blancos and isolated rural villages. Golf, equestrian activities and many other such leisure opportunities also play a major role.
So anywhere where there is a tourist attraction is the 'real' Spain....i.e. modern 2012 Spain as experienced by its people and not just a phantasma in the imaginations of the romantic, nostalgic or just plain ignorant.
In the UK, many British people work in the tourist industry in places all over the country...Blackpool, Bournemouth, the National Parks and of course London itself.
Are these places not the 'real' Britain?
Blackpool is typical of a certain kind of English town...as is York. Both very real.
I think the best contribution British or any other immigrants could make to Spain is to stop seeing it through their prejudices and accept it in all its variety....towns, cities, villages, mountain and desert. All very real.
If we could all do that surely that would be putting in more than we take out?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I imagine/hope the unions are up in arms?


They can be up in arms all they like, it will change nothing.
My UK union of which I am still a member has voted to take further industrial action and to adopt a further 'work-to-rule' policy. We already had a one-day strike which achieved...nada. I would support my extremely fed-up former colleagues and understand their grievances. But I would be an extremely reluctant striker.
The plain and unavoidable truth is that national governments no longer control economic policy. The markets and new technologies call the shots.
If Rajoy or almost any other national leader plans increasing public expenditure the markets will react to raise the cost of borrowing to prohibitive levels. 
Even Germany, where shareholders are but one of a range of stakeholders in the national economy and don't have the clout they have in Spain or the UK etc., these market forces are making themselves felt.
I'm beginning to see little rays of light, pinpricks maybe as yet....
Only a change of ideology in the undemocratic, supranational institutions that really rule the world...the IMF, WTO, GATT, the World Bank, even the EU can bring about policies for growth and full employment. And this may be in its infancy but it's there...
When the IMF and CEOs of some asset management corporations call for an end to austerity, when a leader in the Financial Times says capitalism must be regulated...down in the woods, something is stirring.
I fear it may be too late for you which is very very sad. But if you go back to the US you will hopefully experience the second term of a President who responds to taunts that he is fomenting 'class war' when he speaks of transferring wealth from the top to the bottom of US society with 'Bring it on'.
The free market is not a natural state of things - it is a construction of an ideology pursued by a neo-conservative government.
Can we change it?? Yes we can!!!!!!
Way to go, Obama...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which was exactly what I said on another thread a few days ago.
> Rules are only rules, laws are only laws until they are broken, changed or amended and there's nothing like a financial crisis to get governments started on that path. This is your salary as a civil servant? This is the pension you will get awarded as you are looking after an elderly relative? This the stipulated class size? Ah no, wait a minute - that was _pre_ crisis


All that is true but it reflects the world as it currently is.
OK...Rajoy borrows to raise pensions and pay decent salaries.
Then the markets react by raising the yields on Spanish Treasury Bonds to unsustainable levels.
So nobody gets paid as in Greece.
Laws, rules, even 'rights' are not Platonic forms...they are human constructs and will change to reflect changing circumstances, both social and economic.
Take the concept of 'justice' which most people see as being fixed and unchangeable.
Sixty years ago it was considered 'just' to jail consenting male homosexuals, to imprison abortionists and hang murderers.
Concepts of justice change faster than fashions in skirt length.
Rajoy and other leaders are like rabbits trapped in the glare of oncoming headlights.
For thirty years or so after World War Two it was accepted that Government had a duty to ensure full employment. Whilst current conditions would not permit that there's no reason why it shouldn't be reinstated as a goal to pursue and established as a rule or even law. I'd like that and so would you.
But it won't be under the old conditions as the world has moved on, chiefly in terms of technology which has changed the face of employment.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> I imagine/hope the unions are up in arms?


yes, there have been lots of demonstrations, by students & teachers



at the end of the day I doubt it will make a whole lot of difference - but I have everything crossed


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> yes, there have been lots of demonstrations, by students & teachers
> 
> 
> 
> at the end of the day I doubt it will make a whole lot of difference - but I have everything crossed


Have you seen the Castellón Airport "education day" proposal? _Buenísima_ as they would say. That would be one helluva strike.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> They can be up in arms all they like, it will change nothing.
> My UK union of which I am still a member has voted to take further industrial action and to adopt a further 'work-to-rule' policy. We already had a one-day strike which achieved...nada. I would support my extremely fed-up former colleagues and understand their grievances. But I would be an extremely reluctant striker.


Once again, I beg to differ. I urge you to remember that we're in Spain, not the UK and things are quite different. I never would have joined the NEA (one of the major American teachers' unions) because of the thuggish way they treated my mother in her years as an educator. However, I have found that the five "major" teachers unions up here are actually reasonable and quite capable. 



> I fear it may be too late for you which is very very sad. But if you go back to the US you will hopefully experience the second term of a President who responds to taunts that he is fomenting 'class war' when he speaks of transferring wealth from the top to the bottom of US society with 'Bring it on'.
> The free market is not a natural state of things - it is a construction of an ideology pursued by a neo-conservative government.
> Can we change it?? Yes we can!!!!!!
> Way to go, Obama...


"Too late for you"? Please explain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> Once again, I beg to differ. I urge you to remember that we're in Spain, not the UK and things are quite different. I never would have joined the NEA (one of the major American teachers' unions) because of the thuggish way they treated my mother in her years as an educator. However, I have found that the five "major" teachers unions up here are actually reasonable and quite capable.
> 
> 
> 
> "Too late for you"? Please explain.


I'm referring to the dire economic situation in Spain which you say is obliging you to consider relocating to the US.
Things will get better here but you seem to be indicating you can't wait and sit it out.
If as seems likely given the poor field of Republican opponents Obama wins a second term don't you think that the situation will be better, if ponly slightly, in the US?
As to your first point...yes, we're in Spain and that is precisely *why* union action will sadly make no change to government policy.
As I said before, Rajoy or any other leader can do only what the markets will allow him to.
We've had a general strike, regional strikes, huge demonstrations, none of which have done anything other than return a right-wing government.
Now I don't like this situation or this kind of politics any more than you do. But we have to look at the facts on the ground. Until a way is found to break the power of the markets unions in Spain or anywhere else for that matter can strike all they like. It will change nothing.
When they enthusiastically adopted the neo-con free market ideology, governments and by extension the people who voted for them gave up their power over their national economies.
Did they know what they were getting into?
The swivel-eyed ideologues certainly did and we the electorates accepted material prosperity as a trade-off for economic insecurity and social fragmentation.

Incidentally, Teachers Unions in the UK more than those in Spain are an excellent example of reason and moderation in fighting for members' terms and conditions. But if we had one united union wouldn't it be so much easier? Like Spain, there are several teachers' unions in the UK. My union, NASUWT, now the single largest, was under the last government in a Social Partnership with the Government, together with several other unions with members working in education. The Partnership was successful in that it staved off some of the worst Government proposals.
The other major union, the NUT, is more overtly political and leftist and seems more interested in confrontation than negotiation. Its stance is a major obstacle to teacher union unity.
Perhaps it's the same in Spain?
You and PW could tell us more...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> yes, there have been lots of demonstrations, by students & teachers
> 
> 
> 
> at the end of the day I doubt it will make a whole lot of difference - but I have everything crossed


Just to be devil's advocate....should it make a difference?
Trades Unions do not form a majority in any country I know of.
Should they through strikes and demonstrations be able to alter the policies of a government elected under a commonly accepted system?
I say this as a trades union activist and official of four decades but with an interest in the bigger picture...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> Have you seen the Castellón Airport "education day" proposal? _Buenísima_ as they would say. That would be one helluva strike.


I hadn't - but I just googled & read about it - yes, that would indeed be one helluva strike!!:clap2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Just to be devil's advocate....should it make a difference?
> Trades Unions do not form a majority in any country I know of.
> Should they through strikes and demonstrations be able to alter the policies of a government elected under a commonly accepted system?
> I say this as a trades union activist and official of four decades but with an interest in the bigger picture...


no it probably shouldn't - governments shouldn't be held to ransom by unions

what it _should _& hopefully _will_ do is bring the situation to the attention of those who were voted in recently & again, hopefully, make them feel that they need to do something about it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> no it probably shouldn't - governments shouldn't be held to ransom by unions
> 
> what it _should _& hopefully _will_ do is bring the situation to the attention of those who were voted in recently & again, hopefully, make them feel that they need to do something about it


Agreed. But as I said, there's little if anything they can do.
Imo education and health should be very sacred cows, though.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> As to your first point...yes, we're in Spain and that is precisely *why* union action will sadly make no change to government policy.
> As I said before, Rajoy or any other leader can do only what the markets will allow him to.
> We've had a general strike, regional strikes, huge demonstrations, none of which have done anything other than return a right-wing government.
> Now I don't like this situation or this kind of politics any more than you do. But we have to look at the facts on the ground. Until a way is found to break the power of the markets unions in Spain or anywhere else for that matter can strike all they like. It will change nothing.
> ...


Sadly, I have to agree on this.



mrypg9 said:


> Just to be devil's advocate....should it make a difference?
> Trades Unions do not form a majority in any country I know of.
> Should they through strikes and demonstrations be able to alter the policies of a government elected under a commonly accepted system?
> I say this as a trades union activist and official of four decades but with an interest in the bigger picture...


Nowadays it will not make a difference in Spain.
But History shows that the Trade Union movement (and the political left as a whole) in Spain in the past was very different from the movement in Britain.
On those terms, right or wrong, perhaps there is a different sense here of what is possible and what is not?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

To re-inforce my view of "surveys" - I read one yesterday that almost all the different car groups were topped by German cars (luxury, 4x4, MPV, family saloons, utility types, small cars, hatchbacks, etc.) Sounds good for Germany until you delve into it and find that it was a survey in a British magazine that is owned by a German company!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Sadly, I have to agree on this.
> 
> 
> Nowadays it will not make a difference in Spain.
> ...



No. The Trades Union movement and the Spanish Left as a whole never achieved its political aims as the UK Trades Unions did in alliance with the Labour Party in the UK.
The Spanish Left and Unions were split into mutually hostile groups and sects, remember...anarcho-syndicalists, Trotskyites, Communists, social democrats.
Of course the Right was fragmented too but the Right usually has more sense than the Left and knows when to smooth over or ignore ideological differences to achieve its aims.
The Left were not the victors of the Civil War. Most of the achievements of Spanish social democracy post-Franco have come via the EU.
Action from the Left to change Government policy under current conditions is not going to happen. We must all get into our heads that Governments are not in control. Only when we see the world as it is can we set about changing it (Marx again!)
About a year ago this Forum was full of hopes pinned on a ragbag idealist movement -15M , los Indignados whatever.
Some of us old cynics counselled against this. We were scorned.
The result of the protests was a decisive PP victory.
Unions and politicians have no real power in the world of neo-con economics we live in.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> No. The Trades Union movement and the Spanish Left as a whole never achieved its political aims as the UK Trades Unions did in alliance with the Labour Party in the UK.
> The Spanish Left and Unions were split into mutually hostile groups and sects, remember...anarcho-syndicalists, Trotskyites, Communists, social democrats.
> Of course the Right was fragmented too but the Right usually has more sense than the Left and knows when to smooth over or ignore ideological differences to achieve its aims.
> The Left were not the victors of the Civil War. Most of the achievements of Spanish social democracy post-Franco have come via the EU.
> ...


Not disagreeing. As you say, there was a different focus on how to achieve their ends (not necessarily a better one).
Just saying that the _perception_ of political struggle was different in many ways, which could perhaps lead to a different _perception_ of what may be effective action today.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Not disagreeing. As you say, there was a different focus on how to achieve their ends (not necessarily a better one).
> Just saying that the _perception_ of political struggle was different in many ways, which could perhaps lead to a different _perception_ of what may be effective action today.


Perception is not reality, though, is it?
You cannot compare the past history of the organised Left and Unions in Spain and Britain. There is virtually no meaningful point of comparison.
England in particular differs radically from Spain and other European states in that uniquely it had no peasant class as existed in those countries. 
Private ownership and individualism have always been deeply rooted in English culture. Even in the Middle Ages labour was highly mobile (and state-regulated: The Statute of Apprentices)
This was further intensified by the replacement of Catholicism by Protestantism as the state religion.
The Spanish experience is totally different.
If you really believe that effective change can be achieved* under existing **conditions* by the Left and/or Unions would you be willing to bet on it?
I would like hardback copies of all the works of George Orwell if I win - I have them in paperback but they are falling apart through overuse.
I'll start clearing the shelves...


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Perception is not reality, though, is it?


Not going there again. 
Oh, ok.....
Without a perception (correct or not) of who we are in the grand state of things and our history within that state, we have little basis for our views about the World 'as we see it'.
People do take action based on their perception and that's the problem, because politicians and radical groups can play on this for their own ends.



mrypg9 said:


> You cannot compare the past history of the organised Left and Unions in Spain and Britain. There is virtually no meaningful point of comparison.
> England in particular differs radically from Spain and other European states in that uniquely it had no peasant class as existed in those countries.
> Private ownership and individualism have always been deeply rooted in English culture. Even in the Middle Ages labour was highly mobile (and state-regulated: The Statute of Apprentices)
> This was further intensified by the replacement of Catholicism by Protestantism as the state religion.
> The Spanish experience is totally different.


I believe that is what I was saying, without stating all the facts (as I would have to get out all my history notes for that and I'm writing this alongside my real work. Handbags today ).



mrypg9 said:


> If you really believe that effective change can be achieved* under existing **conditions* by the Left and/or Unions would you be willing to bet on it?
> I would like hardback copies of all the works of George Orwell if I win - I have them in paperback but they are falling apart through overuse.
> I'll start clearing the shelves...


I do not believe this. Sorry about the Orwell books


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> All that is true but it reflects the world as it currently is.
> OK...Rajoy borrows to raise pensions and pay decent salaries.
> Then the markets react by raising the yields on Spanish Treasury Bonds to unsustainable levels.
> So nobody gets paid as in Greece.
> ...


Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with any of that, just stating that that's the way it is, sometimes unfortunately, but sometimes fortunately. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything that should be written in stone, so therefore laws, rules, conditions and whatevers should be dynamic concepts.

But, full employment a law?? I'm not so sure I *would* like that. The moment it becomes a law it becomes something to be flouted, and the concept of what could happen if it *was* followed is mind boggling.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with any of that, just stating that that's the way it is, sometimes unfortunately, but sometimes fortunately. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything that should be written in stone, so therefore laws, rules, conditions and whatevers should be dynamic concepts.
> 
> But, full employment a law?? I'm not so sure I *would* like that. The moment it becomes a law it becomes something to be flouted, and the concept of what could happen if it *was* followed is mind boggling.



I put that badly. Until the end of the seventies in the UK, ensuring full employment via deficit financing was seen as an essential duty of the social-democratic state. 
Classic Keynesianism! The same with Roosevelt's New Deal in the States in the '30s.
The German model although not essentially Keynesian resembles Japan in that in times of crisis it prefers if possible to keep workers employed on shorter hours rather than fire them.
The famous Beveridge Report included 'idleness' i.e. unemployment as one of the evils it set out to abolish.
Tbh I'm not sure if globalisation and new technologies haven't between them made any attempt at achieving full employment impossible.
Unless we rethink radically the nature and purpose of employment...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Tbh I'm not sure if globalisation and new technologies haven't between them made any attempt at achieving full employment impossible.
> Unless we rethink radically the nature and purpose of employment...


It seems to me that either we go "backwards" and people are employed doing labour intensive "invented jobs" like being a greeter at a supermarket, stop having self service everything and put people back in telephone call centres
OR
we reinvent the concept of work and the jobs that that creates


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It seems to me that either we go "backwards" and people are employed doing labour intensive "invented jobs" like being a greeter at a supermarket, stop having self service everything and put people back in telephone call centres
> OR
> we reinvent the concept of work and the jobs that that creates



I can't really comment on Spain as I don't travel around much. But I have been out and about in the UK over the past five years and I'm amazed that there are any unemployed people when there are so many valuable jobs that need doing.
Many of our cities, towns and villages could do with a facelift. Roads need repairing, graffiti removed, buidings renovated, public buildings being given a coat of paint. 
Bus conductors, park attendants, concierges in social housing complexes...once an essential part of the workforce and still needed.
Then there's the health and social services....so many jobs that need doing there. 
Teaching assistants and qualified teachers, more police...
All jobs you could be proud of doing.
I cannot see for the life of me how it makes economic sense to pay people benefits to do nothing when they could be doing important and valuable work...and putting money back into the economy by spending and keeping other people in work and paying taxes.
It's about more than economics though. Joblessness is in itself one of the if not *the* main cause of social exclusion and inequality.
Having a job, having an active role in society is crucial to self-respect.
It is to me and I know it's the same for you and most others.
That's one reason why I found voluntary work here...helping run ADANA is like running a small business without pay.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I can't really comment on Spain as I don't travel around much. But I have been out and about in the UK over the past five years and I'm amazed that there are any unemployed people when there are so many valuable jobs that need doing.
> Many of our cities, towns and villages could do with a facelift. Roads need repairing, graffiti removed, buidings renovated, public buildings being given a coat of paint.
> Bus conductors, park attendants, concierges in social housing complexes...once an essential part of the workforce and still needed.
> Then there's the health and social services....so many jobs that need doing there.
> ...


Speaking of volunteers Ana Botella, Madrid's new Mayor and wife of ex president JM Aznar has come up with a nother of her "brilliant" ideas.
The sports centres, cultural centres should be manned by volunteers
_From typicallyspanish.com
Madrid
Mayor of Madrid wants volunteers to run some public services
By h.b.
Jan 27, 2012 - 11:24 AM


The Mayor of Madrid, Ana Botella, has called for volunteers to man municipal installations and facilities, so they can ‘return something to society’.

She made a call to the Madrid people on Thursday, ‘given the exceptional situation we find ourselves in’, referring to the recession and the lack of money in the City Hall, that we have a series of public facilities which we have built, but now find ourselves unable to run. She said the idea of volunteers was ‘imaginative’ and means that the facilities can continue open and become profitable. It’s expected that cultural and social centres will be at the centre of the plan.

Botella said this would not apply in essential or specialised services and said that no public sector jobs would be substituted.
Since 2009, 1,851 jobs have gone from the City Hall, mostly through retirement.

_
Apply to 
A Botella,
C/ Out of space,
666
Another planet

(Time to go to the vet)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I can't really comment on Spain as I don't travel around much. But I have been out and about in the UK over the past five years and I'm amazed that there are any unemployed people when there are so many valuable jobs that need doing.
> Many of our cities, towns and villages could do with a facelift. Roads need repairing, graffiti removed, buidings renovated, public buildings being given a coat of paint.
> Bus conductors, park attendants, concierges in social housing complexes...once an essential part of the workforce and still needed.
> Then there's the health and social services....so many jobs that need doing there.
> ...


but that's the UK................in Spain they _don't_ pay people benefits for sitting around doing nothing..............not for long, anyway












none of which has anything to do with the thread title :focus:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I can't really comment on Spain as I don't travel around much. But I have been out and about in the UK over the past five years and I'm amazed that there are any unemployed people when there are so many valuable jobs that need doing.
> Many of our cities, towns and villages could do with a facelift. Roads need repairing, graffiti removed, buidings renovated, public buildings being given a coat of paint.
> Bus conductors, park attendants, concierges in social housing complexes...once an essential part of the workforce and still needed.
> Then there's the health and social services....so many jobs that need doing there.
> ...


After all this time, you still haven't got this concept of Tory economics have you?

All those real jobs have to be paid for out of profits, out of budgets, out of "my big fat bonus". Unemployment benefit, social security, JSA, what-have-you is paid by the government out of the taxpayers' money and while there are plenty of unemployed, I can keep down the wages of those I do employ because, they believe, that they could be worse off if they go on strike for more money or I close the place down and lay them all off...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> but that's the UK................in Spain they _don't_ pay people benefits for sitting around doing nothing..............not for long, anyway
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But my point is that there is work to be done in Spain too - the pavements and children's playpark in our village are choked with weeds. There are five million unemployed, with or without benefit.

And OK I can take a hint...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> none of which has anything to do with the thread title :focus:


90% of this thread has anything to do with the thread title, neither had the original survey, for that matter!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> But my point is that there is work to be done in Spain too - the pavements and children's playpark in our village are choked with weeds. There are five million unemployed, with or without benefit.
> 
> And OK I can take a hint...


we DO have supervised 'work parties' clearing weeds & cleaning graffiti

I'm not sure if they are groups of unemployed or 'naughty' people though


I suspect the latter............& _they're_ probably unemployed anyway


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## casa99 (Oct 19, 2010)

Well I`m happy to be here in Spain, o.k. i`m retired so don`t have to worry about finding work and can live o.k. on my oap pension because I was quite lucky in being able to purchase my villa outright so no mortgage to worry about, as we were able to sell a property in the u.k. before the price of houses went into freefall. I am going to the local school in our village where on Tuesdays and Thursdays we get free!! spanish lessons so thats a bonus, had a very hectic morning yesterday getting my residentia and signing on the padron which all took about 5 hours!!! still its worth it , life here is good.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> we DO have supervised 'work parties' clearing weeds & cleaning graffiti
> 
> I'm not sure if they are groups of unemployed or 'naughty' people though
> 
> I suspect the latter............& _they're_ probably unemployed anyway


So do we. They are unemployed naughty people from the big cities who come down here and tidy our monuments, plant flowers etc. (we don't get graffiti here). 

We had a team working on the Roman water-feature behind our house last year and I used to give them cold drinks and water melon. We had some nice long chats. As well as work experience the idea is that being in a country town for a few weeks, away from the temptations of urban life, gives them a new perspective on the world.

This contributed greatly to my personal expat happiness. (See, I am not off-topic!)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> So do we. They are unemployed naughty people from the big cities who come down here and tidy our monuments, plant flowers etc. (we don't get graffiti here).
> 
> We had a team working on the Roman water-feature behind our house last year and I used to give them cold drinks and water melon. We had some nice long chats. As well as work experience the idea is that being in a country town for a few weeks, away from the temptations of urban life, gives them a new perspective on the world.
> *
> This contributed greatly to my personal expat happiness.* (See, I am not off-topic!)


:clap2:

yes, nice clean streets contribute to mine, too 

I'm pretty sure the teams doing ours are local - my dd said that one guy we saw a few months ago on one of the teams used to be at her school


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But my point is that there is work to be done in Spain too - the pavements and children's playpark in our village are choked with weeds. There are five million unemployed, with or without benefit.
> 
> And OK I can take a hint...


Yeah, but the local town hall hasn't got the funds to pay someone to weed the park. 
OH just took a music teaching position for a town hall. We were told he will be paid, but who knows when. We figure it's the best savings plan we have for now.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, nice clean streets contribute to mine, too


Ours are cleaned daily by the people who live in them just as they always were before some local authorities took the job over and started charging for it until they hadn't got anyone left on the payroll to do it but they still charged for it.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Our streets are also cleaned by the local people who live in them. But the problem is that no one else is allowed to do it.
When we first moved in, I was scolded several times for cleaning up building dust from outside our house and told I should wait for the local lady to do it... the next day.
I thought I was doing her a favour as she moans constantly about doing it.
But obviously I was wrong.


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