# moving to Spain - help plz!



## Andrea24 (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi,
I am a 24yr old female looking to move to Spain in the next few weeks. I am from New Zealand but having been living in London for the last 6 years. I am just looking for some advice on where would be the best place to try and live initially - I am intending on doing a 4 week Spanish course when I first arrive and then hoping to get a job in a bar/ hotel or something social where I can use the language and get to know the culture. My only pre-requisite on where I want to live is that it needs to be on the beach!! I understand that Barcelona could be a difficult place to start as they speak Catalan but then there are different dialects all over the country! help!
Any advice is welcomed!
thanks


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Andrea24 said:


> Hi,
> I am a 24yr old female looking to move to Spain in the next few weeks. I am from New Zealand but having been living in London for the last 6 years. I am just looking for some advice on where would be the best place to try and live initially - I am intending on doing a 4 week Spanish course when I first arrive and then hoping to get a job in a bar/ hotel or something social where I can use the language and get to know the culture. My only pre-requisite on where I want to live is that it needs to be on the beach!! I understand that Barcelona could be a difficult place to start as they speak Catalan but then there are different dialects all over the country! help!
> Any advice is welcomed!
> thanks


I really don't want to dash your hopes - but finding casual work is NOT going to be easy. Spain has almost twice the number of unemployed (and climbing) as the UK and YOU'LL NEED real Spanish - not 4week beginners Spanish to get highish on the list. 

Do you have an EU passport? - if not you'll need a sponsor to be able to work and a job to be able to live here long term.

Also you can expect the wage (if you actually find a job) to be approx 600Euros/month (min wage). I COULD NOT CONCEIVE LIVING ON THAT - Rent will be 400ish at least. The rub is that the coastal areas are often as expensive or moreso than inland - where you might find employment more easily as a language teacher.

Spain is ROUGH if you're truly unemployed and without income. And the relaxed beachcomber life is one that is in decline according to one or two we know.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Andrea24 said:


> Hi,
> I am a 24yr old female looking to move to Spain in the next few weeks. I am from New Zealand but having been living in London for the last 6 years. I am just looking for some advice on where would be the best place to try and live initially - I am intending on doing a 4 week Spanish course when I first arrive and then hoping to get a job in a bar/ hotel or something social where I can use the language and get to know the culture. My only pre-requisite on where I want to live is that it needs to be on the beach!! I understand that Barcelona could be a difficult place to start as they speak Catalan but then there are different dialects all over the country! help!
> Any advice is welcomed!
> thanks


From what I've seen, many bars and restaurants are closing on the coast, which means there are an awful lot of bar staff looking for work - these people will be more likely to get any possible new bar jobs cos its not what you know but who you know - sadly you probably wouldnt get a look-in. Also, most bars seem to be family run (certainly that seems to be the case with British Bars) and its the owners and their relatives who are working in them. hotel work seems to come via agencies or the hotel/holiday companies head offices.

Also unless you're extemely gifted with languages, a four week course will not make you anywhere near fluent enough to be able to go for an interview - I've been having lessons twice a week since last Easter and I've lived here and tried to communicate as much as possible and I still cant begin to hold a conversation.... or maybe thats just me!!??

What you need to do is come over for a fact finding holiday and see what you think, afterall you maybe the exception to the rule

Jo


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## john j (Jan 20, 2009)

Andrea, 
Probably your best bet is teaching English, try to take a TEFL course before you come out. My wife speaks poor Spanish and has worked teaching English for 3 years here in Madrid, her boss is from New Zealand, she's been here 16 years. The other oppertunity may be the Irish bars in Madrid, Barcalona etc. As for what jo jo and Chris have said i agree, i'm a self employed carpenter and work is v quiet and i've just done the TEFL as a backup!!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

OK - Heres soemthing I overheard in a bar yesterday (I stoped for a quick lunch between jobs). The barlady was explaining that it's starting to become common practise for bar Staff to be employed as "autonomos" (Self employed). 

As such the bar owner has NO MIN WAGE OBLIGATIONS PLUS the worker has to pay his/her own SocSecurity dues (fixed 235ish a month).

That's scary imo. All depends how long the hours are I supose. But my guess is work will start to go to the lowest bidder - How desparate are you?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> OK - Heres soemthing I overheard in a bar yesterday (I stoped for a quick lunch between jobs). The barlady was explaining that it's starting to become common practise for bar Staff to be employed as "autonomos" (Self employed).
> 
> As such the bar owner has NO MIN WAGE OBLIGATIONS PLUS the worker has to pay his/her own SocSecurity dues (fixed 235ish a month).


Funnily enough I was at an English bar yesterday and I was eavesdropping a conversation by the owner who was saying that the way they operate is she, her husband and daughter do all the work, but have several people that, if it gets busy they phone and ask to come in. They pay them cash for the work they do and thats it! The guy she was talking to asked if those people had other jobs and she said that a some of them literally spent their time doing this sort of casual work for lots of the bars in the area - not earning enough to live on, but grabbing jobs where and when they could. Apparently she was saying it was fine til all the bars were busy at the same time and then she had to pay them more money - the highest bidder would get the staff!!

I dunno if thats legal tho!?

Jo


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

That's been the case in expatshire for a while - it's why you see the same person working in 2/3 bars (lunch at one , evening at another and "extra" when there is a "do" on somehwere) 

It rids the owner of responsibility of paying SS and of the need to pay a minimum wage too -as the lowest bidder is offering "professional services." The owner can also then offer work for, say, the busiest 4/5 hours per day whereas he would previously have had to pay for a 12 hour (say) shift. 

We are going back to the concept of the "journeyman" although in these cases they are not even guaranteed a full day's wage! I can also see huge problems re public liability insurance. (Client slips on wet floor and breaks his neck. He sues the bar whose owner says that Fred is not employed by them and that the client will have to sue Fred for leaving the floor wet after mopping it etc) 

We have got rid of tied farmers and I am not sure this is a welcome inception in business. I am excluding cleaning etc "por horas" as that suits both the cleaner and the family but this idea of selling yourself to a bar seems more than problematical.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes Jojo. our posts crossed but that's pretty common.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> I dunno if thats legal tho!?


I do - it's not! and if they get caught - it could close a small family business.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> I am not sure this is a welcome inception in business.


I'm pretty sure that mid-long term it will be a major PITA. And could even backfire when things pick up.


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## lucylox (Feb 11, 2009)

That is really depressing hearing about the situation with bar work. Andrea - I would definitely advise doing the TEFL for any chance whatsoever of getting a job and if you do take the plunge make sure you have enough money to live for a month or so until you find something. Situation definitely isnt looking good.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Why are people suggesting TEFL courses? 

I know three language schools that have closed recently in Spain. If one pays to take a course, what guarantee is there that there will be a paid job at the other end? 

Another point - Just because somebody speaks language "A" does NOT mean they can teach it. My experience of teaching to Spaniards is that they EXPECT a lot of grammar and as most Brits have never been taught the difference between an object pronoun and a subject pronoun (before we even start on indirect object pronouns!) they struggle teaching Spaniards the way they wish to be taught. Perhaps that's one reason why so many of the "English" teachers are American, Australian, NZ and even Dutch/Scandis. 

It's tough at the moment but as I always say, "You only need one break"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lucylox said:


> if you do take the plunge make sure you have enough money to live for a month or so until you find something. Situation definitely isnt looking good.


At least a month, if you're young free and single you can probably get by and live on very little, but you'll need to make sure you've got enough money to cover your rent and bills for more than a month - three minimum and I would advice you always make sure you keep enough for a flight back if things dont go to plan - you may not need it, but its better to be safe than sorry

Jo


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> Why are people suggesting TEFL courses?
> 
> I know three language schools that have closed recently in Spain. If one pays to take a course, what guarantee is there that there will be a paid job at the other end?
> 
> ...


I'm old enough (older than I ever intended to be) to have been taught grammar every day at school; we had a test every Monday and if you failed to achieve 20/20 you had an automatic detention. I was terrified of her and never had a detention. Only subject I was really good at!!

Gratz on your 1000th post Jojo!!!!!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Proud of you Thrax. 

I still find it incredible that when I did my "A" levels (1974) there was no such thing as "A" level English. There were perhaps 10 of us doing "A" level English literature but apart from that nobody else in the year was having ANY lessons about the English language/literature at all. Amazing!! 

When I first started to teach Spanish here, I quickly learned to dumb down what I thought were the most basic terms - nouns,verbs, adjectives, pronouns etc. Trying to explain the passive voice without reverting to these terms was a bridge too far. I resorted to driving 8" nails through my eye-sockets. Much less painful. The "subjunctive" has far many years been the "S" word. Don't ask on a public forum what the "c" word is!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

When I first started to teach Spanish here, I quickly learned to dumb down what I thought were the most basic terms - nouns,verbs, adjectives, pronouns etc. Trying to explain the passive voice without reverting to these terms was a bridge too far. I resorted to driving 8" nails through my eye-sockets. Much less painful. The "subjunctive" has far many years been the "S" word. Don't ask on a public forum what the "c" word is! 
... the causative use of have?.... the conditional?.... 
I have been teaching English for 20 years and have just started teaching Spanish to a few English friends and I too have found that native speakers have less conception of their own grammer than my students! 
I have also wondered why people would be taking TEFL exams which don't mean anything here. At least if you do the EOI it is a recognised qualification.
Anles


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> Another point - Just because somebody speaks language "A" does NOT mean they can teach it.


Actually there's no reason to suppose they can TEACH at all. I'm hopeless as a teacher - in any field. 

Natural "x" speakers LEARN by copying what those arround them do. It's how I learned English (in my case MAINLY from my parents). It's also how I've learned Spanish (I've never had a lesson - but I endevoured to ONLY use Spanish with my wife from day1) and, to a lesser extent, German. I do not feel I'm gifted at all btw. I know it's not perfect - couldn't care less.

It's only later on the "niceties" of grammar are forced upon us. Personally I find it a hinderance if you NEED to think about it.

I found it allows me to simply switch from one to another as I think in X,Y or Z. Also allowed me to "curse" effectively VERY early on. This is more important than many think.

There is a DOWNSIDE to this - basically I find it VERY difficult to translate. Though when I do - I'd say I'm better at capturing the meaning than many "translators". I have seen some VERY dubious translations. I went out with an EEC official translator for a while when I was in Germany.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> Actually there's no reason to suppose they can TEACH at all. I'm hopeless as a teacher - in any field.
> 
> Natural "x" speakers LEARN by copying what those arround them do. It's how I learned English (in my case MAINLY from my parents). It's also how I've learned Spanish (I've never had a lesson - but I endevoured to ONLY use Spanish with my wife from day1) and, to a lesser extent, German. I do not feel I'm gifted at all btw. I know it's not perfect - couldn't care less.
> 
> ...


Interestingly, one of my older daughters studied the art of language at college, we were talking about it on the phone last night and she was saying that children under around the age of 7 seem to pick up languages easily because they DONT translate it, they just understand it - any language, be it first or second... or third. Once you get older and the "age of reasoning" hits you, then you learn a foreign language, but have to translate it into your first language in your head to understand it. She was explaining this is why very few children and some adults understand the priciples behind their first language IE very few kids would be able to explain verb endings, tenses etc. They just do it!

Jo


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Having studied linguistics at university, I understand Chris and Jojo's daughter's points of view. I have learned almost all my Spanish "in the street" and know that it is a completely different way to the way I was taught Swedish. In other words my Spanish was learnt very passively and my Swedish was learnt very actively. The net result is that I have very different comfort levels in both languages in different situations. My Swedish vocabulary is massively wider but how often I need the adjectives dank or insouciant is debatable. In Spanish I'd just talk around it, make a sentence about it. BOTH WORK! 

I remember a few years ago get very frustrated with somebody who "claimed" that she wanted to learn Spanish and was interrogating me for hours about CDs or books, lessons or 1-2-1s, intercambios or paid, TV or radio etc ....In the end I asked her what she knew about the GOYA theory. Being a woman (and therefore having an opinion on everything LOL) she started spluttering something about, "I think I read something about it. Wasn't it a Dutch guy who.....?" Smelling the BS, I cut her down and said that it was much more simple. 

If you want to learn Spanish just Get Off Your Axxx and do ANYTHING. Whether it's watching Spanish porn videos, La Liga on La Sexta, reading embroidery or fly-fishing magazines or stopping the next child in the street and asking him how many anuses he has it's "A" way and bluntly you won't know which works for you until you start. 

Whatever works for you I wish you "Mucha suerte"


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> Having studied linguistics at university, I understand Chris and Jojo's daughter's points of view. I have learned almost all my Spanish "in the street" and know that it is a completely different way to the way I was taught Swedish. In other words my Spanish was learnt very passively and my Swedish was learnt very actively. The net result is that I have very different comfort levels in both languages in different situations. My Swedish vocabulary is massively wider but how often I need the adjectives dank or insouciant is debatable. In Spanish I'd just talk around it, make a sentence about it. BOTH WORK!


German. I did actually study German for a while - then stopped and later took 1on1 classes to get it back up and running (as I wanted to live there). 

After what seems still a short time - my teacher - a German (and qualified Uni examiner) lady told me to go to German for long holidays and make a german "holiday girlfriend" - with strict instructions to under no circumstances marry one. Sound advice it was too (as I came to understand MUCH later). I learned then that I can only really learn on the street.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Pretty much how I learned French. Although I did it a "A" level my knowledge was about 17th Century French poetry and I got a "B" grade without being able to order a coffee and had not read a single 20th C novel based in France! 20 years later I met a French lady and we lived together for 7 years so today my spoken French is fine and my accent is pretty good but I'd not feel comfortable reading a novel. Another language where I am only really confident in one part. If I could only add my abilities in French, Spanish, Swedish and Norwegian, then I'd speak like Stuart Hall and write like Sundman or Ibsen with the vocabulary of Andrés Montes. "La vida puede ser maravillosa, Salinas!".


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> ...but I'd not feel comfortable reading a novel.


I never have - in any language - I did have a brief affair with the James Clavell stuff though. But in my defense - I was sick and on happy pills.

Workshop manuals - AH! - now that's another thing altogether  - currently reading on on precision lathing to make some bullet swage dies. 

Will also confess to having had a brief spate with travel books - Stuff by Redmond O'Hanlon and such. 

tbh. now I just find reading a PITA anyway - hate wearing glasses for any length of time.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I am reading 47 pages of a contract in Spanish. All legalise and all complete BS. 

Why does it not say - we provide a service and you pay? BTW, if you do not pay we have a temper tantrum and stop the service. If you still don't pay we end up in court. Would make my day so much easier and I could get back to watching "Ana y Las Siete" on the web! What a woman! 

Sadly I guess I am being paid to translate this back into English and my first overview "This is complete xxxx. It's totally one-sided and they don't even say what we can do when they screw up" was regarded as being a bit too facile. My second attempt was: "This is complete and total xxxx. It's totally one-sided and they don't say what we can do when they totally screw up." 

It's one of these days when I realise that Spanish legalise is just the same as English legalise. How can anybody take 47 pages to say so little. (Mind you there are three pages of names, cifs, addresses, registered addresses, postal addresses, declaration of commercial activity* etc before we even start.)

Oh well, if they want to pay me, it beats working I guess!! Would be simpler for the president to learn Spanish! 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**A declaration of commercial activity? This means "we provide telecom services." Why don't they just put "What do you do, guys?" Much easier to understand!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> How can anybody take 47 pages to say so little.


I work with polititians - don't forget.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> get back to watching "Ana y Las Siete" on the web! What a woman!


Well - if we're dreaming:-






So's the music. Tito Larriva


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