# Moving to spain - advise on expat community areas



## annwil

Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now. We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia as I believe it is a very expat community but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


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## snikpoh

annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now. We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia as I believe it is a very expat community but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


My only question would be (and probably contentious), why come to Spain just to live in an expat area?

There are such beautiful places in Spain that it would be a shame to miss them just because it wasn't an 'expat area'.


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## xabiaxica

annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now. We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia as I believe it is a very expat community but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


look no further - my paradise Home - Xàbia Tourism Portal - Town Council of Xàbia

which could be why around half the residents are expats from all over the world who couldn't drag themselves away once they had visited


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## Lynn R

Well, there's always this place, discussed in a recent thread:-


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/538857-life-ghetto.html


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## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> My only question would be (and probably contentious), why come to Spain just to live in an expat area?
> 
> There are such beautiful places in Spain that it would be a shame to miss them just because it wasn't an 'expat area'.


horses for courses - different folks different strokes

you can always visit other places


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## Leper

Hi Annwil, I presume you are retiring to Spain in 2 years. Good move. Rent, do not buy. A permanent move to Spain is a big deal. Therefore, I suggest you rent for several weeks in different locations on the off season and then decide where would suit you best. Start learning Spanish or at least make a decent effort.

To answer your question:- Mojacar Playa, Costa Almeria. 50/50 expats and Spanish for a start. 45 mins drive to Almeria Airport, 90 mins drive to Murcia Airport (a choice of airports is good).


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## larryzx

annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now............. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


Maybe when you say 'expat community' you might be thinking of an area where there are expats. 

You mentioned Camposol. I have never been there but I have 'looked around' using Google Earth. It reminded me of Crawley New Town when in was built in the early 60's. Sorry but it looks awful when compared with a Spanish town where there are a significance number of expats living and there are many of them scattered along the coasts.

PS I have sent you a private message


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## Lolito

Go to Benidorm, it is like the UK, full of fish & chips shops and people drinking lager at 10 a.m. Oh! and they sell the Daily Mirror.

pah!


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## baldilocks

annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now. We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia as I believe it is a very expat community but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


Hi Annwil. As you might have gathered there are a few of us (myself included) who would not be seen dead living (if that makes sense) in an expat area.

I live in an inland village with very few expats, many of those who were here have gone elsewhere or 'back home' leaving a nasty taste in the mouth. Some have gone leaving debts of up to €30,000, one has gone after taking some €7,000 for materials for a roof repair the day after receiving the money, others have left after creating chaos caused by drunkenness.

Fortunately, the few that remain are better behaved and not much of a problem other than being very self-centred and not even exchanging common courtesies. As for ourselves, we have been welcomed, get on well with the locals and feel part of the village.

Many who have opted for campo life have found that there are many disadvantages.


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## Alcalaina

Annwil, don't be put off by these snooty comments about expat areas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to live amongst people you have a lot in common with (including language) but still enjoy the wonderful climate, good fresh food and value-for-money accommodation that parts of Spain can offer.

I live in a country town with hardly any expats but I've just spent a week on holiday in the Costa del Sol (Estepona area). Everywhere we went - on the bus, in restaurants and bars, and at the Sunday market - English was the main language we heard. Thousands of Brits who knew the area because they used to holiday there have now moved there permanently after their retirement. They all looked pretty happy to me!


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## AllHeart

annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain permanently in 1 or 2 years from now. We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia as I believe it is a very expat community but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest areas of Spain which have an expat community. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


Hi Annwil.

Something you may want to consider is that there are approximately 196 countries in the world. Consider, if you will, if there were 196 expat communities in Spain, all in different areas of Spain. Let's say just four areas of Spain. That's 4 x 196 = 784 expat communities in Spain. What would Spain look like at the end of the day, after many years of being kind enough to let expats live in Spain? If you're coming to Spain because you love Spain, you may want to consider that bringing your country to Spain may not be logistically a good idea in the long run for Spain or for your love of Spain. In other words, perhaps it's not a good idea to think of having your cake and eating it too.

There are some members on this forum who are wonderful people and are wonderful people for Spain. And there are lots of expat communities in Spain, which I really think is in fact a good idea at the start. But in the long run, Spain may run into difficulties with this. 

I know this may sound offensive, and I don't mean it to sound offensive. Please just consider where I come from. 

I always think of this beautiful saying that I heard a long time ago that went something like this... "When walking in the woods, leave only your footprints." I wish you the best in your journey to Spain.


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Hi Annwil.
> 
> Something you may want to consider is that there are approximately 279 countries in the world. Consider, if you will, if there were 279 expat communities in Spain, all in different areas of Spain. Let's say just four areas of Spain. That's 4 x 279 = 1,116 expat communities in Spain. What would Spain look like at the end of the day, after many years of being kind enough to let expats live in Spain? If you're coming to Spain because you love Spain, you may want to consider that bringing your country to Spain may not be logistically a good idea in the long run for Spain or for your love of Spain. In other words, perhaps it's not a good idea to think of having your cake and eating it too.


I don't agree with you, Allheart. Spain welcomes economically self-sufficient immigrants from all over the world. It needs them because its birth-rate and its population is falling; it needs them to buy up some of its two million empty dwellings, and spend their money on local goods and services.

Spain is not an insular nation and doesn't have a fear of being "culturally swamped". I've never known anywhere in this country where British immigrants are not welcomed, as long as they observe the laws of the land.


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> I don't agree with you, Allheart. Spain welcomes economically self-sufficient immigrants from all over the world. It needs them because its birth-rate and its population is falling; it needs them to buy up some of its two million empty dwellings, and spend their money on local goods and services.
> 
> Spain is not an insular nation and doesn't have a fear of being "culturally swamped". I've never known anywhere in this country where British immigrants are not welcomed, as long as they observe the laws of the land.


Hi Alcalaina. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm just giving my view. I didn't speak anywhere of not welcoming immigrants in this post or any other post - or anywhere else - but on the contrary I'm very welcoming. 

I'm speaking about a term that I've heard called integration of immigrants. Could you please re-read my post and think of what I'm saying that way? Perhaps it may make more sense to you if you frame it as such. You may still disagree with me, which is fine too. We need different opinions for the world to go 'round. But perhaps you would be so kind as to give my thoughts a second chance by re-reading as an issue of integration? :fingerscrossed:


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Hi Annwil.
> 
> Something you may want to consider is that there are approximately 196 countries in the world. Consider, if you will, if there were 196 expat communities in Spain, all in different areas of Spain. Let's say just four areas of Spain. That's 4 x 196 = 784 expat communities in Spain. What would Spain look like at the end of the day, after many years of being kind enough to let expats live in Spain? If you're coming to Spain because you love Spain, you may want to consider that bringing your country to Spain may not be logistically a good idea in the long run for Spain or for your love of Spain. In other words, perhaps it's not a good idea to think of having your cake and eating it too.
> 
> There are some members on this forum who are wonderful people and are wonderful people for Spain. And there are lots of expat communities in Spain, which I really think is in fact a good idea at the start. But in the long run, Spain may run into difficulties with this.
> 
> I know this may sound offensive, and I don't mean it to sound offensive. Please just consider where I come from.
> 
> I always think of this beautiful saying that I heard a long time ago that went something like this... "When walking in the woods, leave only your footprints." I wish you the best in your journey to Spain.


I live in a town with at least 50% non-Spanish residents 

we are welcomed & are also integral to the life & future of the town - the situation you imagine couldn't be further from the truth

there are no real enclaves nor ghettos , the majority live scattered all over the place & although it might not be 'small village' Spain - it IS Spain & retains a very Spanish feel - albeit a very 'modern' & international Spain 

btw - we chose to live here because of the beauty of the town & its micro-climate. Although we had holidayed here for years we had no idea that so many expats of different nationalities live here - that aspect of where we chose to live didn't come into our decision at all


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> I live in a town with at least 50% non-Spanish residents
> 
> we are welcomed & are also integral to the life & future of the town - the situation you imagine couldn't be further from the truth
> 
> there are no real enclaves nor ghettos , the majority live scattered all over the place & although it might not be 'small village' Spain - it IS Spain & retains a very Spanish feel - albeit a very 'modern' & international Spain
> 
> btw - we chose to live here because of the beauty of the town & its micro-climate. Although we had holidayed here for years we had no idea that so many expats of different nationalities live here - that aspect of where we chose to live didn't come into our decision at all


 Hi Xabiachica. Maybe this is a good time to define what an expat a community is? By the way you're speaking, this sounds to me like an integrated community of immigrants and Spaniards. So I consider perhaps my definition of an expat community is different than others.


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Hi Xabiachica. Maybe this is a good time to define what an expat a community is? By the way you're speaking, this sounds to me like an integrated community of immigrants and Spaniards. So I consider perhaps my definition of an expat community is different than others.


yes, that's what it is - but it can't be denied that it has a large expat community

I suspect you mean what I would call an enclave or ghetto

even in areas with such things, the residents are generally integrated with the local Spanish community to some extent

they will use the restaurants, shops & medical facilities for example - I doubt there are any 'stand alone' communities of foreigners


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Hi Alcalaina. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm just giving my view. I didn't speak anywhere of not welcoming immigrants in this post or any other post - or anywhere else - but on the contrary I'm very welcoming.
> 
> I'm speaking about a term that I've heard called integration of immigrants. Could you please re-read my post and think of what I'm saying that way? Perhaps it may make more sense to you if you frame it as such. You may still disagree with me, which is fine too. We need different opinions for the world to go 'round. But perhaps you would be so kind as to give my thoughts a second chance by re-reading as an issue of integration? :fingerscrossed:


I re-read your post. You seemed to be advising the OP that she should not consider moving to Spain unless she is prepared to leave her culture behind and adopt a Spanish lifestyle. Did I read that wrong? 


> If you're coming to Spain because you love Spain, you may want to consider that *bringing your country to Spain* may not be logistically a good idea in the long run for Spain or for your love of Spain. In other words, perhaps it's not a good idea to think of having your cake and eating it too.


None of us immigrants really "integrate", unless we have a Spanish family, or a job where we work alongside Spaniards and rarely speak English. We might have lots of Spanish friends and eat our lunch in the middle of the afternoon, but we will always be separate and different, and that's not a bad thing, providing we respect other people's cultural space.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> even in areas with such things, the residents are generally integrated with the local Spanish community to some extent
> 
> they will use the restaurants, shops & medical facilities for example - I doubt there are any 'stand alone' communities of foreigners


Ohh, I don't know. 
What about the famous Torrevieja / Orihuela area? And aren't some parts of the Baleric Islands famous for having more German/ British residents than Spaniards? I'm pretty sure they have German/ English speaking everything, or is this not so? I certainly felt that you could live in Torrevieja without having to speak Spanish or use any, well few Spanish services (doctor, dentist, foreigners department in the town hall, British shops, newspapers, football games on tv, clothes, books...)


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## AllHeart

You guys are bringing up a whole lot of issues here that I can't possibly give justice to in simply writing. As much as it seems we're contradicting one another, we're not. I am PRO-IMMIGRATION. I am PRO-CULTURALISM. I am PRO-LANGUAGE DIVERSITY. I am PRO-DIVERSITY. I am NOT a racist or a biyatch.

My post was specifically directed at this post. Consider my context. This is what other people said before me in a totally different way. 



annwil said:


> Hi Everyone, My husband and I are planning on moving to Spain *permanently in 1 or 2 years from now*. *We are trying to get as much information from the internet as we can on different expat areas to live*. We had thought about Camposol in Murcia *as I believe it is a very expat community* but recenty found out about subsidence etc in certain areas. Can anyone suggest *areas of Spain which have an expat community*. We feel we would settle quicker and easier in a busy area rather than a rural setting with no other houses nearby. All advice very very welcome. Thank you


EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT. Wow! Nothing to do with Spain at all. 

What I wanted to say, but bit my tongue, was: Hey, Annwil, do you even want to live in Spain? One to two years prior to even moving here, and the only thing on your radar is expat? (Which is what others implied.) Wow. To me, that's an insult to Spain. I've seen it way too often in Canada. 

Not only is it an insult to Spain to my eyes, but it's like the very bottom of the list of the hundreds of questions that people ask in preparing to move to Spain.

And I know that I will never, ever be totally integrated in Spain. Even if I had spent my life here. We never totally integrate. Thank God for that. Because that diversity is how we were made to be.

Please be a little more sensitive when reading between the lines or even reading the lines. Extrapolation and presumptions are often very hurtful.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ohh, I don't know.
> What about the famous Torrevieja / Orihuela area? And aren't some parts of the Baleric Islands famous for having more German/ British residents than Spaniards? I'm pretty sure they have German/ English speaking everything, or is this not so? I certainly felt that you could live in Torrevieja without having to speak Spanish or use any, well few Spanish services (doctor, dentist, foreigners department in the town hall, British shops, newspapers, football games on tv, clothes, books...)


ahhh - what my daughter calls the 'Brit-bubble' 

yes, there are those who live in such a bubble here, but that doesn't mean that they don't come into contact with the local Spanish residents & have to deal with them on some level - which was what I meant really - _entire communities_ which are completely seperate from & have no contact with the 'native' community


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## Leper

Hold on lads and lassies! All these people want to do is move to Spain and enjoy their retirement. They are getting advice here that would drive even the strong willed amongst us to Bolivia or even Bradford or to Ireland.

It is no big deal. If the people do not want to Speak Spanish, adopt Spanish customs they will have little or no problems. All they really got to do is drive on the right hand side of the road, enter roundabouts going right etc. The rest will fall into place.

Of course, they want their Brit newspapers, their spag bol, even some lager from time to time. It takes time to integrate and integrate they will. They will learn some Spanish ways and will embrace all that is good about Spain too.

I recommend (once again) that they rent for several weeks in different locations in the off season. Like all of us, they will find their own feet and probably easier than most think.


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## AllHeart

Leper said:


> Hold on lads and lassies! All these people want to do is move to Spain and enjoy their retirement. They are getting advice here that would drive even the strong willed amongst us to Bolivia or even Bradford or to Ireland.
> 
> It is no big deal. If the people do not want to Speak Spanish, adopt Spanish customs they will have little or no problems. All they really got to do is drive on the right hand side of the road, enter roundabouts going right etc. The rest will fall into place.
> 
> Of course, they want their Brit newspapers, their spag bol, even some lager from time to time. It takes time to integrate and integrate they will. They will learn some Spanish ways and will embrace all that is good about Spain too.
> 
> I recommend (once again) that they rent for several weeks in different locations in the off season. Like all of us, they will find their own feet and probably easier than most think.


 Thank you for this, Leper. Your humour goes a long way. I promise to calm down now.

Sorry all for getting mad. It's just you're painting me out to be someone I'm not, and that hurts, and telling me things I already know - really, really obvious things. Perhaps I come across as stupid and insensitive? But I'm not.


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> You guys are bringing up a whole lot of issues here that I can't possibly give justice to in simply writing. As much as it seems we're contradicting one another, we're not. I am PRO-IMMIGRATION. I am PRO-CULTURALISM. I am PRO-LANGUAGE DIVERSITY. I am PRO-DIVERSITY. I am NOT a racist or a biyatch.
> 
> My post was specifically directed at this post. Consider my context. This is what other people said before me in a totally different way.
> 
> 
> 
> EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT, EXPAT. Wow! Nothing to do with Spain at all.
> 
> What I wanted to say, but bit my tongue, was: Hey, Annwil, do you even want to live in Spain? One to two years prior to even moving here, and the only thing on your radar is expat? (Which is what others implied.) Wow. To me, that's an insult to Spain. I've seen it way too often in Canada.
> 
> Not only is it an insult to Spain to my eyes, but it's like the very bottom of the list of the hundreds of questions that people ask in preparing to move to Spain.
> 
> And I know that I will never, ever be totally integrated in Spain. Even if I had spent my life here. We never totally integrate. Thank God for that. Because that diversity is how we were made to be.
> 
> Please be a little more sensitive when reading between the lines or even reading the lines. Extrapolation and presumptions are often very hurtful.


no reading between the lines here, because you've been as clear as clear - & I disagree with you

they have every right to want to live in an area where they can access familiar things - if they want to live near other people who speak their language, if they want to be able to buy fish & chips, if they want to be able to go to a quiz night in English (let's face it, how many of us even after living here for years would cope with a quiz night in Spanish?), if they want to be able to read a newspaper in English

these areas exist - they mostly aren't ghettos, but are in towns like mine which have a number of expats of of various nationalities -an expat community doesn't have to be a ghetto apart from the local Spaniards - mostly (with some exceptions, no doubt, as PW pointed out) they are _part of_ the general community, not_ apart from_ it 

just because they want these things doesn't mean that they have no right to want to move to Spain - they have as much right as the next person - & in no way are they insulting Spain, imo


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## saffydina

Sticking my neck out here as its my first post, but surely a major motivation for making the move is the climate ? After that its horses for courses.


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## Pesky Wesky

saffydina said:


> Sticking my neck out here as its my first post, but surely a major motivation for making the move is the climate ? After that its horses for courses.


It probably is for many, but unless it's for health reasons I personally don't think it's a strong enough reason to base a move to a different country on.
The next most heard reason to move fom the UK is because it's so horrible there, but that's still not a strong reason for wanting to come to *Spain*.


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> It probably is for many, but unless it's for health reasons I personally don't think it's a strong enough reason to base a move to a different country on.
> The next most heard reason to move fom the UK is because it's so horrible there, but that's still not a strong reason for wanting to come to *Spain*.


The climate in the summer is great, altho many folk complain that its too hot - especially when living with it for the whole summer. I have friends who live in Spain and return to the UK for the summer months, cos they cant stand the heat or the tourists lol

However, the winters in Spain - they were my pet hate. cold, wet, windy and the houses arent build for it.

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

saffydina said:


> Sticking my neck out here as its my first post, but surely a major motivation for making the move is the climate ? After that its horses for courses.


:welcome:

yes, it is for many - & it played quite a big part in our decision to move here

we wanted to live somewhere with fresh clean air where the kids could play outdoors all year round without having to layer up the clothes, & where we could have the windows open most of the year to enjoy that clean air

we might have moved to Greece, tbh, but I figured that a new language at school for the kids would be hard enough, without having to learn a whole new alphabet as well

we loved Corfu & we loved Jávea - we knew both well - but in the end it came down to that

& now my elder daughter is studying Greek anyway


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> no reading between the lines here, because you've been as clear as clear - & I disagree with you
> 
> they have every right to want to live in an area where they can access familiar things - if they want to live near other people who speak their language, if they want to be able to buy fish & chips, if they want to be able to go to a quiz night in English (let's face it, how many of us even after living here for years would cope with a quiz night in Spanish?), if they want to be able to read a newspaper in English
> 
> these areas exist - they mostly aren't ghettos, but are in towns like mine which have a number of expats of of various nationalities -an expat community doesn't have to be a ghetto apart from the local Spaniards - mostly (with some exceptions, no doubt, as PW pointed out) they are _part of_ the general community, not_ apart from_ it
> 
> just because they want these things doesn't mean that they have no right to want to move to Spain - they have as much right as the next person - & in no way are they insulting Spain, imo


Okay. So we disagree, and that's okay. I am not aggravated by different opinions. I've given my experience and my statistical reasoning behind it. 

Remember, this is post #1 from this person on a forum where the sky is the limit as to what questions you can ask. The only question she's asking about is about being expat - one to two years before the move. I feel like making a documentary, but I've already seen it, so it's old news to me.

She didn't say what she meant by expat, so I'm not going to presume it was for language. However, let's say it is for language.... I also disagree with you here. There are approximately 7,000 languages in the world. So let's say we base expat communities on language across Spain. Let's say again there are four expat communities across Spain for each language. That's 4 x 7,000 = 28,000 expat communities across Spain = Where is Spain?


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Okay. So we disagree, and that's okay. I am not aggravated by different opinions. I've given my experience and my statistical reasoning behind it.
> 
> Remember, this is post #1 from this person on a forum where the sky is the limit as to what questions you can ask. The only question she's asking about is about being expat - one to two years before the move. I feel like making a documentary, but I've already seen it, so it's old news to me.
> 
> She didn't say what she meant by expat, so I'm not going to presume it was for language. However, let's say it is for language.... I also disagree with you here. There are approximately 7,000 languages in the world. So let's say we base expat communities on language across Spain. Let's say again there are four expat communities across Spain for each language. That's 4 x 7,000 = 28,000 expat communities across Spain = Where is Spain?



I live in a town of just over 33,000 residents where 58 recorded nationalities live + 15 people from 'other countries' not recorded. (2013 stats) 

That's a lot of different languages, a lot of different backgrounds & a lot of different 'expat communities'

there are clubs for various nationalities, restaurants from different countries 

Spain is alive & kicking here in Jávea - yes there are businesses run by various nationalities - naturally there are, since not everyone comes here to retire

all nationalities are involved in the fiestas, we even have a special one every year to celebrate the different nationalities living here

the common language is Spanish - though amongst themselves the 'native Xàbians' speak Valenciano - but since the education is largely in this language the younger foreigners also speak it

we all rub along together - & I'm basing this on my experience of living in this community for 11 years - not from extrapolating numbers

no, the OP didn't say what she meant by 'expat community' - but I'm willing to bet that what she meant is way closer to my interpretation (or rather my experience) - that of a group of people of her nationality living in Spain, alongside the Spanish, rather than what you seem to imagine - a group of people of her nationality living apart from & excluded from the Spanish people


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## annwil

Thanks to some of you for your helpful (and not so helpful replies). All taken on board.


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## xabiaxica

annwil said:


> Thanks to some of you for your helpful (and not so helpful replies). All taken on board.


:welcome: back!!


don't let our spirited discussions drive you away - this is a topic which always seems to get everyone going!!

check out the link I posted in my first reply to you - you'd LOVE it here, I can almost guarantee


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## Justina

*Spain*



xabiachica said:


> :welcome: back!!
> 
> 
> don't let our spirited discussions drive you away - this is a topic which always seems to get everyone going!!
> 
> check out the link I posted in my first reply to you - you'd LOVE it here, I can almost guarantee


Yes, pesky wesky, I would agree with you too, but I think Alcalaina truly summed it up. If one does not become part of a family, then you will always be an outsider. That doesn't mean that if you are in a little village and they see that you are out there brushing the steps and throwing water around and your hubby turns out each morning sparkling clean, then they will see well at least they try.
I had 39 years of Mexico and believe me, the social attitudes came straight from Spain. I felt like a bull being forced into the ring. My ma in law forced constant dinners upon us cos it was the saint's day of one of the family, and don't forget the birthdays. And constant moans of why didn't my husband see more of his brother, who lived in his wife's family compound some two hours away from us, apart from a general lack of empathy between them.


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## annwil

Hi xabiachica, I had a look, It looks wonderful. Thanks for all your information. I think most people have the wrong idea of what we are looking for. (Probably my own fault for mentioning 'expat community' lol.


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## Justina

*Spain*



Justina said:


> Yes, pesky wesky, I would agree with you too, but I think Alcalaina truly summed it up. If one does not become part of a family, then you will always be an outsider. That doesn't mean that if you are in a little village and they see that you are out there brushing the steps and throwing water around and your hubby turns out each morning sparkling clean, then they will see well at least they try.
> I had 39 years of Mexico and believe me, the social attitudes came straight from Spain. I felt like a bull being forced into the ring. My ma in law forced constant dinners upon us cos it was the saint's day of one of the family, and don't forget the birthdays. And constant moans of why didn't my husband see more of his brother, who lived in his wife's family compound some two hours away from us, apart from a general lack of empathy between them.


In those many years there, my only friends were foreigners. Argentinians, Nicaraguans, Chileans and French. 
I meet many people here cos I have dogs and doggy people tend to relate even if it is only casual, but still my very few friends tend to be English and French. I don't worry about it and I do think that younger generations have more chance of integrating cos Spain is still developing and the younger generation are much more open than even their parents.


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> no reading between the lines here, because you've been as clear as clear - & I disagree with you
> 
> they have every right to want to live in an area where they can access familiar things - if they want to live near other people who speak their language, if they want to be able to buy fish & chips, if they want to be able to go to a quiz night in English (let's face it, how many of us even after living here for years would cope with a quiz night in Spanish?), if they want to be able to read a newspaper in English
> 
> these areas exist - they mostly aren't ghettos, but are in towns like mine which have a number of expats of of various nationalities -an expat community doesn't have to be a ghetto apart from the local Spaniards - mostly (with some exceptions, no doubt, as PW pointed out) they are _part of_ the general community, not_ apart from_ it
> 
> just because they want these things doesn't mean that they have no right to want to move to Spain - they have as much right as the next person - & in no way are they insulting Spain, imo


 Xabiachica, I'm speaking from experience too, which I said. I'm using statistics to make my point. Please consider that what you describe is how I grew up in Canada, and I lost my country. I'm not blaming just the problem that we kowtow to every immigrant whim, whisper and sniffle. There are indeed other problems. But the face of immigration can reach a saturation point, and that is what I'm talking about. 

In many things in life, including immigration, I consider one of my favourite teachings from Garrett Hardin 1968 "Tragedy of the Commons." Consider if every country in the world accommodated every immigrant's language, social beliefs, political beliefs, religious beliefs, festivity, foods, attire, laws, etc, etc. Some may say that would be utopia. Some would say that would be chaos. Some would say that would be anarchy. I say, having experienced it myself, statistics aside, it's, at the very least, extremely confusing and scary. In the end, the only thing people talk about is themselves amongst themselves, because no one understands anyone.


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## Justina

*Questions*



AllHeart said:


> Perhaps you said expat so many times, so that you could fit in on an expat forum?


and perhaps allheart, if you would stop highlighting every blessed phrase and nit picking endlessly and recognising that this is just a forum where 'those with experience' here just try to help. I don't include myself as one with experience, but I do appreciate the comments.


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## AllHeart

Justina said:


> and perhaps allheart, if you would stop highlighting every blessed phrase and nit picking endlessly and recognising that this is just a forum where 'those with experience' here just try to help. I don't include myself as one with experience, but I do appreciate the comments.


 And perhaps, Justina, you could consider that I have a sense of humour in what I wrote. Therein lies the wink that I put beside what I wrote.

I'm having a conversation and highlighting what I'm referring to. Endlessly? 

I don't nitpick endlessly. I know that about myself. If you perceive this is being done by someone, I suggest it is very rude for you to say that to a person.

I am one of those people 'without experience' because I have never lived in Spain. I consider myself an immigrant to Spain, and therefore I am asking for help. The issue of integration is something that I bring as baggage to Spain. This being an expat forum, it's quite a relevant discussion. 

As far as this being "just a forum," it's not just a forum to me. This is a group of people who are helping other people move to a new country. The behaviour on this forum is unlike any I've ever seen. I wouldn't be in Spain if it weren't for this forum. 

Some like me, some don't. That's the real world. There's no one person that everyone likes, so I'm comfortable when people don't like me. Of course I'd love for everyone to love me. But I live in reality. I would rather be honest and figure things out through discussion, than be dishonest and ferment in my own thoughts.


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## Lolito

In all honesty I don't mind UK people coming to Spain and try to live in 'expats' communities, as long as they don't expect everybody to speak English because they say so (trust me, I know a few of those people!). 

... and of course, as long as they try to integrate, first by trying to learn the language, which in my opinion, is the least one could do when moving to another country, and not to expect people to speak English everywhere because in Spain that's not the case unless (again) you live within an 'expat' community where I have heard (in person and even people on this forum), that 'I don't need to speak Spanish' as everyone around me is British'. WRONG!

My next door neighbours (both English), are really very nice people, but after 20 years in Spain, they can only say 'bueno' or 'malo' and hardly anything else. At first I tried to help them when they moved here, with the leccy people, the Telefonica people, etc, but after 3 years, I am really annoyed as they keep bothering me for the most silly things. I don't want to be rude to them but at times I just want to say 'FFS ! 20 years in Spain and you never made an effort to integrate at least by learning the language'.... but I keep biting my lips, we are moving to a new house next month, they can find someone else to help. 

When I first moved to the UK 25 years ago, I never expected people to speak in Spanish, I was in their country and I was the one that had to make the effort to learn. Never looked for an Spanish 'expat' group to join either.... It was hard, but we all get there in the end if we want it that much. 

There is no excuses. As someone here said before 'The mediterranean is not a British lake and the language of Spain is Spanish'. 

I know my English is not good, but I am sure I have learnt enough to at least make myself understood. Lol!

What I am trying to say is that people can live wherever they want and with whoever they want, but when you are in another country, there are certain things that are expected from you, and I do reiterate this becuase I have heard so many comments onthe line of 'It's disgusting, the Mercadona cashier didn't understand me, she didn't speak any English whatsoever, my gosh!'.... 

Señoraaaaaa, why should she?


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> Xabiachica, I'm speaking from experience too, which I said. I'm using statistics to make my point. Please consider that what you describe is how I grew up in Canada, and I lost my country. I'm not blaming just the problem that we kowtow to every immigrant whim, whisper and sniffle. There are indeed other problems. But the face of immigration can reach a saturation point, and that is what I'm talking about.
> 
> In many things in life, including immigration, I consider one of my favourite teachings from Garrett Hardin 1968 "Tragedy of the Commons." Consider if every country in the world accommodated every immigrant's language, social beliefs, political beliefs, religious beliefs, festivity, foods, attire, laws, etc, etc. Some may say that would be utopia. Some would say that would be chaos. Some would say that would be anarchy. I say, having experienced it myself, statistics aside, it's, at the very least, extremely confusing and scary. In the end, the only thing people talk about is themselves amongst themselves, because no one understands anyone.


with respect - Canada isn't Spain & Canadian people aren't Spanish people


& by your own admission, you really don't have very much experience of Spain & Spanish people yet, do you?

as for reaching saturation point - I think that is unlikely

in any case, Spain is actively encouraging foreigners to come here - atm it needs the money! As a foreigner, you can't move here unless you can financially support yourself .


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## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> ahhh - what my daughter calls the 'Brit-bubble'
> 
> yes, there are those who live in such a bubble here, but that doesn't mean that they don't come into contact with the local Spanish residents & have to deal with them on some level - which was what I meant really - _entire communities_ which are completely seperate from & have no contact with the 'native' community


I went to a place like that on the CDS last week called La Duquesa. The taxi driver told me the Spanish call it "Little Gibraltar". Nothing negative about that, for them it's just a source of income.


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## mrypg9

annwil said:


> Thanks to some of you for your helpful (and not so helpful replies). All taken on board.


Annwil, come to Spain and enjoy. You do not have to live in what some folk erroneously term a 'ghetto'. You do not have to live where there are English pubs, fish and chip shops and bingo nights.
But if that is your choice, ignore the 'superior' folk who will sneer at you for living in a 'Brit bubble'.

Equally, you do not have to be a 'plastic Spaniard'. You do not have to wear flamenco dresses, put a rose behind your ear, show off your Spanish friends or display your fluency in Spanish in front of Brits at every opportunity. 
Again, that's harmless...but the natives will laugh at you.

As people like Xabia and Alca have pointed out, most people here move easily between their new communities and their lifelong habits. My partner and I have lived or spent time in several countries, learnt enough of the language to get by, more in some cases, made friends in the community yet have retained the majority of our lifestyle developed over decades in the UK. Of course we've had to adapt to variations in diet and climate - living in minus 20 C or more in Prague, living in temperatures of 40C here in Spain.

We love living in Spain. But it is a country comme les autres with plus and minus points. For us the plus points outweigh the minus so we've decided to stay which was not our original intention. Some people go overboard in their love of Spain - I met people in Prague who felt the same about their adopted country. Others made the wrong choice, hate Spain and go back to the UK as quick as they can. That's life.

I've lived here now for six years. I speak reasonable Spanish, belong to Spanish clubs and other organisations, have many Spanish friends. But I'm British. I was born British and I'll die British. By that I do not mean I am patriotic, wave Union Jacks, stand up for the National Anthem or even support the national football team - I think they're crap so I support Germany. It's just a fact. 

The Spanish have a saying : vive y deja vivir....live and let live. They are far less uptight about how people choose to live than many immigrants.


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## Pesky Wesky

Immigration, intergration, expats...All emotive terms we have discussed many a time here, I post this hoping that I'm not going to upset anyone...


Living in an expat area
I think a lot has to do with attitude. Why do you want to live in such an area? Do you want to live in an expat area to keep the natives at bay?As Lolito says, do you expect the native population to speak in English to you whilst you stoically do not learn their language?


Many times it has been commented here that it's only natural for people of the same nationality to want to live together. Is it though? “Natural” to want that in another country? It's certainly not what I wanted when I came here.


It is easier to be more sympathetic to immigrant groups that don't impose their lifestyle, their customs, their culture on the native population;groups that don't erradicate the native. In some countries there are areas that seem to have been taken over by foreigners. However, if those immigrants are families and their children go to local schools there is much more possibility that these groups will eventually make up part of a population that mixes and has some traits of the all parts of the population. In Spain the main expat areas are made up of older people so it seems that that mixing doesn't happen...


People often make the point that Spaniards welcome foreigners because they spend into the economy. I'm sure most people would prefer not to be seen as a cash cow and would prefer to be seen as a person and not as a resource. That also has its back lash as well, when immigrants that were seen as spenders stop spending as happened in recent years with pensioners who found they had much less to spend than before.


Lastly, through little fault of the immigrants / expats/ foreigners themselves enormous damage has been done to Spain's environment through crazy building and expansion programmes. The water table in several areas has been affected by the building of hotels and golf courses and areas of the coast line destroyed for ever. As I say, not exactly the fault of the incomers themselves, but a consequence nevertheless


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## Pesky Wesky

To the OP.
I always recommend Torrevieja and Orihuela Costa to people who want to live in an expat area. It seems there's plenty to do and plenty of British people to do it with!


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Equally, you do not have to be a 'plastic Spaniard'. You do not have to wear flamenco dresses, put a rose behind your ear, show off your Spanish friends or display your fluency in Spanish in front of Brits at every opportunity.
> Again, that's harmless...but the natives will laugh at you.


I wore a flamenco dress and rose to the feria this year. Does that make me a plastic Spaniard? My Spanish friends thought it was great that I'd finally made the effort - they'd been nagging me to do it for years. I didn't detect any hint of derision.


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I wore a flamenco dress and rose to the feria this year. Does that make me a plastic Spaniard? My Spanish friends thought it was great that I'd finally made the effort - they'd been nagging me to do it for years. I didn't detect any hint of derision.


Context is everything. You were at a feria.


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> with respect - Canada isn't Spain & Canadian people aren't Spanish people
> 
> 
> & by your own admission, you really don't have very much experience of Spain & Spanish people yet, do you?
> 
> as for reaching saturation point - I think that is unlikely
> 
> in any case, Spain is actively encouraging foreigners to come here - atm it needs the money! As a foreigner, you can't move here unless you can financially support yourself .


I spent a lot of time in Canada, owned property there and have close Canadian family. I have visited the U.S. many times and had close American friends.

Someone - Churchill ? - once said that North America and Britain were two close families divided by a common language. In my experience that is very true.

I think that few North Americans really understand Europe simply because comparatively few visit. The continent is vast enough for people to be able to experience great changes of scenery, culture and language even without crossing the pond.
California and New York, Alberta, Quebec and Ontario....all very different and with different concentrations of immigrant communities. After all, Canada and the U.S. have developed as immigrant nations.

We Europeans are used to moving freely throughout the EU and other European countries, for work, tourism and residential purposes. Many young professional people who apply for jobs throughout Europe as casually as in their country of origin would even identify foremost as European rather than French, German, British etc. 
There is a common European cultural identity based on our history and movement of peoples. All over Europe town and village names bear traces of the original Celtic, Anglo-Saxon or Norse peoples that inhabited the area millennia ago.

Since the Second World War, North American influences have impacted strongly on our culture and politics. But we are still recognisably European for which fact I am thankful, not because of any dislike of other cultures or any anti-Americanism but because I welcome diversity. I don't want us to be so totally 'integrated' that we won't need to travel outside our national boundaries because wherever we go everything will be the same.

If in the distant future that does happen as it well may it will be a very gradual process, so gradual that people will not notice the change.


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## Pazcat

If things go to plan we will move to a villagy type place that could be considered an expat area with around half of the "registered" population foreigners. It certainly seems like more than half though but I guess that is based on the padron and well, not everybody is on that.
It kind of seems like Xabi's Javea but with less services and probably more retirees.

We didn't choose that area by design to be near people who could speak English, French, German or Dutch it was simply how things worked within our budget and most importantly the type of property we wanted within a 30 minute commute to Alicante.
It could be full of Martians as far as we are concerned but we still have to deal with daily life, the town hall, services etc... so will do so to the best of our ability.


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## beamishbum

Hi,

My family are moving to Algorfa 15 mins inland 40 min drive from Murcia and Alicante Airport we are renting initially we'll see how it goes we can drive around the areas and research into what suits us as a family. I guess thats all you can do without making to many commitments we still have our house in the UK which is being rented out for 2 years. 

Good luck

B


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Someone - Churchill ? - once said that North America and Britain were two close families divided by a common language. In my experience that is very true.


Variously attributed to Wilde and Shaw rather than Churchill - it is something that could have easily been said by all three.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I wore a flamenco dress and rose to the feria this year. Does that make me a plastic Spaniard? My Spanish friends thought it was great that I'd finally made the effort - they'd been nagging me to do it for years. I didn't detect any hint of derision.


Context, as PW said. Sandra has a flamenco dress in her wardrobe too. Lots of Brits prance about in such costumes at feria time, even in places with a high concentration of immigrants.

Means nothing. Just a kind of fancy dress. I've even seen people shaking their maracas.....


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## larryzx

I have lived in Spain for a little over 25 years, in towns which have a fairly high non-Spanish population. I have never wanted to become more Spanish. I am happy with who I am. That said, I do speak Spanish, have just put down my book, in Spanish, from the public library, have integrated on the level I choose. Today is the Policia Nacional Day but I was unable to accept their invitation to celebrate the day with them. They did not invite me because I was pseudo Spanish but because they accept me for who I am.

I live here because on balance it is the place I like best. I know many Spanish and non Spanish people. The only ones I cannot stand are those Brits who continually claim that anyone who is not 'being Spanish' and living in the wilds with them is not welcome / inferior in some way/ should leave, i.e. utter bores.


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## Lynn R

larryzx said:


> I have never wanted to become more Spanish. I am happy with who I am. That said, I do speak Spanish, have just put down my book, in Spanish, from the public library, have integrated on the level I choose.
> 
> I live here because on balance it is the place I like best. I know many Spanish and non Spanish people.


I suppose I am quite similar in that respect. I haven't changed what I eat (except the climate rendering certain things like roast dinners less attractive), the times I eat, the majority of what I watch and read, or how I dress (I think I'd look totally ridiculous in a flamenco dress). I do speak Spanish, was determined to learn when I decided to move here as I couldn't stand the thought of not understanding what was going on around me, not being able to communicate with my neighbours or deal independently with "officialdom" without the need to involve a third party.

I did want to live in a place which didn't have a proportion of foreign residents (of any nationality) which outnumbered or almost outnumbered the Spanish ones, because I actively wanted the experience of living in a foreign country and I felt if it was too "familiar" then I would be missing out on that and it would probably be too easy for me to get by in English so I would be less likely to put the necessary effort into learning Spanish. I don't live in the wilds, I live in a very big town (the municipality has over 76,000 residents and the foreign population is less than 10% in total, I've no idea how many British people live here in total but it certainly seems to be less than it was when we bought our place in 2003.

I didn't want to live in a holiday resort either, I wanted somewhere that wasn't affected too much by seasonal variations ie lots of places closed in winter or everywhere too crowded and busy in summer.

Everybody to their own as far as where they choose to live and who they socialise with, but I do think it's discourteous to your host nation if you don't at least make the effort to learn the language. Some will find that easier than others, but surely everybody is capable of learning the basics at least, and the indigenous people do appreciate it if incomers at least try. Imo, that goes for every country, including the UK of course.


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## larryzx

Lynn R said:


> but I do think it's discourteous to your host nation if you don't at least make the effort to learn the language. Some will find that easier than others, but surely everybody is capable of learning the basics at least, and the indigenous people do appreciate it if incomers at least try. Imo, that goes for every country, including the UK of course.


 Lynn, if one is an EU citizen then Spain is not a host country we all of us have just the same right to live here as anyone else. Of course showing normal courtesy is a must wherever one lives.

That one may not learn Spanish I do not think is important, although being able to do so makes life simpler especially when dealing with officialdom. So if one does not learn Spanish, then choosing to live in a town which has a fairly high immigrant population is probably sensible. That way you are more likely to stay and keep spending that money which comes from outside Spain, which is a lot more important to Spain than you being able to speak Spanish.


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## mrypg9

Earlier this year I was invited to attend a ceremony of remembrance in the Old Cemetery in Estepona. This ceremony, a commemoration of the Republicans murdered by Franco's forces, was organised by descendants of those murdered and PSOE and IU who undertook to organise the 'formal' part of the proceedings.
About twenty of us assembled, short speeches were made, the Internationale was sung and a wreath was laid. The children -very old - and grandchildren of some of the victims were in attendance.
During the proceedings I became aware of the vast unbridgeable gulf between those directly connected with this historical event which had had such an impact at family level and me, the guiri. I felt I had to distance my self a little from those present, just a little, as it was their memories, their experience they were commemorating, something which I could experience only from a distance, as it were.
I think my little act of separation was noticed and appreciated. Anyway, I was introduced to very many people and the event ended with coffee or beer at a nearby café.
As I left the cemetery I noticed another, more ornate memorial. This was to those murdered by what was termed 'the Marxists' in the six months or so after July 18th 1936 and the conquest of the town by nationalist forces early in 1937.
I developed a deep interest in the history of the town during the Civil War period and researched as much as I could. It became apparent that many if not all of those killed during the Republican period were as innocent of any crime as those killed by the Franquistas. Both sides killed people for such trivial reasons as belonging to the 'wrong' political party or trades union or for professing a religious faith. I was particularly shocked to find that a favourite killing ground for Republicans was a spot where we often walk our dogs. 
This level of homicidal political hatred seems alien to people like us who take our politics with a lot less ideological fervour. It is apparent that these divisions and this hatred exist until this day, albeit in a diluted form.
We can speak perfect Spanish, dress in feria costumes, take siestas, socialise in an entirely Spanish milieu.....yet small incidents, such as the cemetery act of remembrance, show for this guiri at least that integration can go only so far.


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## Lynn R

larryzx said:


> Lynn, if one is an EU citizen then Spain is not a host country we all of us have just the same right to live here as anyone else. Of course showing normal courtesy is a must wherever one lives.
> 
> That one may not learn Spanish I do not think is important, although being able to do so makes life simpler especially when dealing with officialdom. So if one does not learn Spanish, then choosing to live in a town which has a fairly high immigrant population is probably sensible. That way you are more likely to stay and keep spending that money which comes from outside Spain, which is a lot more important to Spain than you being able to speak Spanish.


There is a significant proportion of the British population (those still living there) who don't appear to share that view, with their strident objections to the number of children from other EU countries whose first language is not English in British schools (although I'm sure they learn very quickly as the vast majority of British children do in Spanish state schools), shops catering for Polish people and those from other nationalities whose signage and chat with customers is in their own language, and so on.

I am with Lolito on this issue - who is a Spaniard who's made it plain in this thread that they find it irritating that people who have lived here for 20 years barely know a word of Spanish and make a pest of themselves with constant requests for help, or grumble about Spanish people employed in offices and shops who can't speak Engish. I can't drive (by choice), so should I go knocking on the doors of neighbours or acquaintances who have cars and ask them to drive me to where I want to go? I don't think they'd be too happy about that, somehow.


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## larryzx

Lynn R said:


> There is a significant proportion of the British population (those still living there) who don't appear to share that view
> 
> . I can't drive (by choice), so should I go knocking on the doors of neighbours or acquaintances who have cars and ask them to drive me to where I want to go? I don't think they'd be too happy about that, somehow.


Lynn. It is not my opinion, but a matter of fact, all EU citizens have the same rights in any particular country in the EU as everyone else.


If people cannot speak a language in any country in the world, then, if interpreters are not provided (and in law in the EU some place are required to do so) then if they cannot get someone for free, a volunteer maybe, then they need to pay for the service.


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## Pazcat

> (and in law in the EU some place are required to do so)


Which places are required to do so by law?

I only ask as in Belgium you would go to the local gemeente and there are signs up in Dutch saying they will only speak to you in Dutch. 
Despite the fact you have 3 official languages in Belgium and can speak one of them fluently and they can speak them fluently plus English but still they wont even point you to a translator because you are not speaking the right language.
Some towns won't allow you to purchase property if you can't speak Dutch and some even ban children from speaking there native French is the school yard.

Now I can't say for sure but some of this strikes me as in breach of some kind of EU laws.

I don't mind a bit of language difficulty but at least in Spain when you find it hard to say what you need people are very helpful and they don't pass laws to actively discourage communication.

Not that I overly care, it just left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. Let them wallow in their own mire I say.


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## larryzx

Pazcat said:


> Which places are required to do so by law?
> 
> .


This is a notice issued by Junta De Andalucia._

( http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/serv...g=/contenidos/general/derechos/SAS_DyD_EN.pdf )


*Right obligations of citizens in the public health services of Andalusia*

In accordance with Andalusian Health Act 2/1998, published in the Official Gazette of the Government of Andalusia number 74, of 4th July.

Your Rights as a user of the healthcare system

To receive care under conditions of equality, without discrimination for any reason, respecting your personality, human dignity and privacy.

To be offered the available healthcare, benefits and services necessary to care for your health.

For you, your relatives or companions to receive information in comprehensible language (_the Spanish version t makes it clear that it a language comprehensible to you)_ on everything related to your process, including diagnosis, treatment, prognosis, expected stay in hospital and alternative treatment.

To receive information on the health services and benefits to which you may have access and the necessary requisites in each case.


To be offered information on health prevention and promotion programmes carried out in your primary healthcare centre.

To be informed on collective health aspects of special interest, incidence or risk.

To be received personally on arrival at a health centre, and especially in hospital, 
to be informed of all matters that can make your stay more comfortable.

To receive clear and comprehensible information on treatment, surgical procedures and tests that involve risks, before your written consent is obtained.

To know about and give prior written authorization to procedures used in a teaching or research project which under no circumstances may entail an additional risk for your health.

To choose from the options submitted by your doctor, and to refuse any health intervention, except in the cases established by law (risk for public health, incapacity and urgent intervention in cases of risk of irreversible injury or danger to life). 

To be accompanied by a relative or person you trust at all times during the healthcare process, provided that clinical circumstances so permit.

To have all the information concerning your care in any health centre kept confidential, and to have access to the personal data obtained during your care.

To have a written record, or record on technical support, of your process kept in your medical record. The information, which must be in one record for each health institution, will include your state of health and evolution, as well as the tests and treatment you receive.

To have access to your medical records, using the established procedures.

To receive a report on discharge from hospital, on completion of a specialist consultation, and on discharge from emergency.

To be issued a certificate attesting to the state of your health.

To be assigned a doctor and a primary healthcare centre to treat you, although you may choose another doctor and centre.

To choose your general practitioner and paediatrician from among those practising in your town or city, and also from among the other doctors in the Health District corresponding to your address.

To choose a specialist for consultations, when in the opinion of your GP or paediatrician, you need to be treated by such a specialist, and to receive care from the same specialist during your process.

To choose a hospital within the Public Healthcare System of Andalusia, if you are waiting for an operation.

To have a second medical opinion on your process, in the terms established.

To know the name and function of the professionals who treat you.

To be operated on within the term established in ruling legislation for each of the procedures of the Public Health System.

To receive healthcare in an acceptable time, depending on the process, and to be offered information on waiting times for 

consultations, tests and operations for the various processes.

To have the Charter of Rights and Obligations available in all health centres. You are also entitled to make complaints and suggestions and to receive a reply within the established periods.

To participate in the public healthcare system through the Area Health Boards, represented by Consumers and Users Associations and to express your opinion through different social research models, and to receive information on the resulting measures for improvement.

To have all appropriate actions taken that, together with the care for your process, are aimed at reducing and relieving suffering and pain both in critical situations and in the process of death, in accordance with maximum respect for autonomy, integrity and human dignity.

To have your living will, declared using the established procedure, taken into account..

To have the information on your genome kept confidential and not used for any kind of discrimination. You are also entitled to obtain the advantages deriving from available new genetic technology in accordance with the ruling legislative framework.

To use information and communication technologies, in accordance with the development of such technologies in health services, with criteria of accessibility, security and continuity.

*Your Obligations*

To comply with the general instructions on health common to the entire population, and those of the health services, in accordance with the established provisions.

To respect the rules established in the centre, and to respect the personnel providing services in it.

To be responsible for the use of the resources and benefits offered by the Public Health Service of Andalusia, basically as regards the use of services, pharmaceutical benefits, ortho prosthetic benefits and unfitness for word procedures.

To take care of facilities and collaborate in their maintenance.

To comply with the administrative rules and requisites for use of and access to healthcare benefits.

To sign, if you refuse treatment, the pertinent document in which it will be clearly stated that the patient has been sufficiently informed and refuses the suggested treatment.

_Junta De Andalucia 
CONSEJERÍA DE SALID
_


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## mrypg9

In the UK local education, courts and health authorities go out of their way to provide teaching, signs and interpreters in a variety of languages, not only European ones. Being able to speak English as well as be able to answer questions 90% of the native population can't answer is a requirement for citizenship though.

In many areas of Northern England and the Midlands there are areas which are heavily populated by particular Asian groups...Kashmiris, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and many others. Many residents of those areas, especially women, rarely if ever go outside their communities. They speak no English as they have no need to. They enjoy their own radio and tv stations, have their own shops, places of worship....everything required to live their own way in the UK.
In the UK this is usually referred to as multi-culturalism.

When British people choose to do this in Spain they are sometimes looked down on by people who would hiss 'Racist!!' if you criticised the way some ethnic minorities choose to live in the UK.

I honestly can't understand why some Brits in Spain feel the need to get so worked up about the way some fellow immigrants choose to live here. I NEVER encountered this kind of thing in the Czech Republic, Germany or Canada, this judging of people by where they choose to live, what they eat, wear, whether they spend their time at the beach or not....Why in Spain, I wonder?

Maybe those who haven't travelled much find Spain exotic and very 'foreign' and get carried away by it all? I often think that when people go on about Spanish 'bureaucracy' and how to buy a car in Spain...we use euros, not cowrie beads or shrunken heads...

Here's my take on learning Spanish, which is really the only thing that impacts that much on others: if you want to and can, learn Spanish. It makes life easier with officialdom and you will make friends and fit in more easily.

If you don't, don't moan and whinge when you find out that the woman in the post office in some flyblown pueblo doesn't speak English. Would you expect to find a Spanish-speaking postmistress in Sixpenny Handley, ffs?
Don't be surprised if you require medical treatment and you can't explain your problem to the nurse or doctor. They are medical practitioners, not linguists.
Bear in mind that you are not in the UK where we bend over backwards to help foreigners fit in. We are in Spain which is different.
Presumably that's why you came here.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Context, as PW said. Sandra has a flamenco dress in her wardrobe too. Lots of Brits prance about in such costumes at feria time, even in places with a high concentration of immigrants.
> 
> Means nothing. Just a kind of fancy dress. I've even seen people shaking their maracas.....


Mary, you should try dressing up and prancing about now and again. It's actually great fun, and the nice thing about our part of the world is that people really don't care what size, shape or age you are. What matters is that you are having a good time. :thumb:


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> In the UK local education, courts and health authorities go out of their way to provide teaching, signs and interpreters in a variety of languages, not only European ones. Being able to speak English as well as be able to answer questions 90% of the native population can't answer is a requirement for citizenship though.
> 
> In many areas of Northern England and the Midlands there are areas which are heavily populated by particular Asian groups...Kashmiris, Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and many others. Many residents of those areas, especially women, rarely if ever go outside their communities. They speak no English as they have no need to. They enjoy their own radio and tv stations, have their own shops, places of worship....everything required to live their own way in the UK.
> In the UK this is usually referred to as multi-culturalism.
> 
> When British people choose to do this in Spain they are sometimes looked down on by people who would hiss 'Racist!!' if you criticised the way some ethnic minorities choose to live in the UK.
> 
> I honestly can't understand why some Brits in Spain feel the need to get so worked up about the way some fellow immigrants choose to live here. I NEVER encountered this kind of thing in the Czech Republic, Germany or Canada, this judging of people by where they choose to live, what they eat, wear, whether they spend their time at the beach or not....Why in Spain, I wonder?
> 
> Maybe those who haven't travelled much find Spain exotic and very 'foreign' and get carried away by it all? I often think that when people go on about Spanish 'bureaucracy' and how to buy a car in Spain...we use euros, not cowrie beads or shrunken heads...
> 
> Here's my take on learning Spanish, which is really the only thing that impacts that much on others: if you want to and can, learn Spanish. It makes life easier with officialdom and you will make friends and fit in more easily.
> 
> If you don't, don't moan and whinge when you find out that the woman in the post office in some flyblown pueblo doesn't speak English. Would you expect to find a Spanish-speaking postmistress in Sixpenny Handley, ffs?
> Don't be surprised if you require medical treatment and you can't explain your problem to the nurse or doctor. They are medical practitioners, not linguists.
> Bear in mind that you are not in the UK where we bend over backwards to help foreigners fit in. We are in Spain which is different.
> Presumably that's why you came here.


And that multi-culturalism, although it is promoted officially and enshrined in law, is bitterly resented by what seems to be a growing proportion of the British population. Yes, citizens of other EU countries have a legal right to settle in Britain - but that doesn't stop Nigel Farage, for example, complaining loudly and publicly that he finds it offensive to not hear English spoken around him when travelling on a train.

I agree, those who choose not to learn the language should not moan and whinge when the woman (or man) in the post office or anywhere else doesn't speak English. But they do, they do, and that is the point Lolito and I (and others, I'm sure) object to.

I had the very same argument with a woman who lived nearby (now deceased) who was up to ninety because a Hacienda employee had said to her "I am in Spain, I speak Spanish" when this person tried to communicate with her in English (having lived in Spain for almost 10 years by this point, not having taken an interpreter with her and could barely order a drink in Spanish). This particular individual was extremely vociferous on the subject of immigrants in the UK who couldn't speak English. She didn't take kindly to having the double standard pointed out to her.

Or the man who was expounding his theory to me in the street one day that the Ayuntamient should organise special meetings for foreign residents (conducted in English) so that they would be aware of what was going on locally. I pointed out that we already had neighbourhood meetings and pointed to a poster on a wall nearby inviting people to attend the next one. "Oh, it's all right for you", he said "you're lucky, you can speak Spanish". Lucky, am I?? I saw red at that and said it had a lot more to do with time, effort and money invested than it did to luck. "Well when I moved here I had other priorities", he said. Well, tough. Don't complain when you don't know what's going on, then.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Mary, you should try dressing up and prancing about now and again. It's actually great fun, and the nice thing about our part of the world is that people really don't care what size, shape or age you are. What matters is that you are having a good time. :thumb:


I think people in my part of the world have the same view. We also know how to have a good time in our village. We have a three day long feria in August, not bad for a place with a registered population of 1008. Some villagers dress up, most don't. Same for the annual Romeria. 

I actually do dress up and prance about quite a lot, believe it or not. But I will not wear a flamenco dress as I would look quite ridiculous. Have a look at photos of me. You will change your mind. Rapidly.
I also think it's possible to have a good time without wearing a flamenco dress. I do spend quite a lot of time in the company of young, very good-looking gay men who for some reason don't mind the company of an anciana inglesa.

(Who do not, afaik, wear flamenco dresses either...although I'm not sure about Fernando)


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## baldilocks

I most definitely do NOT wear a flamenco dress!


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> And that multi-culturalism, although it is promoted officially and enshrined in law, is bitterly resented by what seems to be a growing proportion of the British population. Yes, citizens of other EU countries have a legal right to settle in Britain - but that doesn't stop Nigel Farage, for example, complaining loudly and publicly that he finds it offensive to not hear English spoken around him when travelling on a train.
> 
> I agree, those who choose not to learn the language should not moan and whinge when the woman (or man) in the post office or anywhere else doesn't speak English. But they do, they do, and that is the point Lolito and I (and others, I'm sure) object to.
> 
> I had the very same argument with a woman who lived nearby (now deceased) who was up to ninety because a Hacienda employee had said to her "I am in Spain, I speak Spanish" when this person tried to communicate with her in English (having lived in Spain for almost 10 years by this point, not having taken an interpreter with her and could barely order a drink in Spanish). This particular individual was extremely vociferous on the subject of immigrants in the UK who couldn't speak English. She didn't take kindly to having the double standard pointed out to her.
> 
> Or the man who was expounding his theory to me in the street one day that the Ayuntamient should organise special meetings for foreign residents (conducted in English) so that they would be aware of what was going on locally. I pointed out that we already had neighbourhood meetings and pointed to a poster on a wall nearby inviting people to attend the next one. "Oh, it's all right for you", he said "you're lucky, you can speak Spanish". Lucky, am I?? I saw red at that and said it had a lot more to do with time, effort and money invested than it did to luck. "Well when I moved here I had other priorities", he said. Well, tough. Don't complain when you don't know what's going on, then.


Well, we all know these people exist. I will never forget the woman who said she had moved to Prague to get away from all the foreigners. But you won't change people like that so why get worked up about them? Let them enjoy their ignorance and insularity. There's no law that says you must speak Spanish, none that I've come across. Similarly with multi-culturalism. There are good reasons for thinking it's not entirely a Good Thing. But people of the same nationality tend to congregate together. All big cities the world over have their ethnic quarters: China Town in New York, London, Montreal, Little Italy in New York, Poles in Kensington, Greek Cypriots in Green Lane, Haringey, Somalis in Spitalfields....and why not?
The day anything Nigel Farage says has any impact on me I'll seek medical help.

There is a foreigners association in Estepona, AREME, which has members from over forty different countries. When meetings are held, the language is English, not because there are more English attendees but because as I was surprised to find most of the other nationalities present preferred it that way, I have no idea why. One irritating little show-off addressed the meeting I went to in Spanish and was told by the Spanish chairwoman to speak English, which took the wind out of his sails a bit.

I don't recall people in Prague being judgmental about people who didn't bother to learn Czech. Such people do have a very hard time in the CR as few people speak English, although younger Czechs like to practise on you as it's becoming more common to find it taught in schools. Under socialism everyone learnt Russian. When I visited the office of the Foreign Police to get my residencia I was confronted by a large handwritten notice which said 'Only Czech spoken here'. I thought that was a bit hard. I can hold my own in Czech but it's a difficult language to learn, no way like Spanish.

The way I live suits me. It's my free choice. As long as people obey the laws and behave in a socially responsible manner, their lifestyle and language competence is of zero concern to me. Much more important things to worry about!


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> I most definitely do NOT wear a flamenco dress!


Spoilsport. You're letting the side down.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I most definitely do NOT wear a flamenco dress!


You're not trying hard enough, Baldy! Shame on you! But what about tight trousers and a cummerbund or sash? 

Sandra looks good in most things but even she looked a bit odd in her flamenco gear. She had the works.....mantiila, fan, flounces. It was a nifty blue and yellow spotted affair....but it just didn't look right so it stayed in the wardrobe.


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## amespana

We've only your word for that Baldi!!!!!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

And...
Back to the OP
It seems Maella Aragon has an growing expat community if this thread is anything to go on
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ving-spain/115546-maella-aragon-new-post.html


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## AllHeart

I see in this thread that the immigration integration issues in Canada are similar to the European Union, and the rest of the world. I've read a lot on this subject, including the issues in the EU - not just by way of the forum. It's a concept not limited to any one country, because immigration is happening internationally. I've lived my life looking and sounding like a Canadian with roots of many generations to Canada. So I have been blessed with being treated well as a Canadian. However, when I want to talk as an immigrant, I let that be known and have heard horrific things from immigrants about what they think of Canada. So I've kind of lived a double life that way. When I say horrific, I mean it's horrific to me, but maybe not to someone else. Horrific to me is the thought of someone just being in Canada because they have to be because of wars, and that it's just a stop measure until things settle down in their home country. To me, horrific is that they're in Canada just because they can get a job there. Horrific is being in Canada because they could afford to buy citizenship. The sentiments amongst old immigrants like me about the spoiled brats of new immigrants is growing stronger by the day. These spoiled brats are the result of federal laws that came into place in the 80s through the Constitution of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Codes. In 30 years, we have a new country. I don't think anyone foresaw that these laws would be used by new immigrants to change the face of Canada. Now all people talk about is their right to this and their right to that. They can, because it's Canadian law. We've come to a point where reverse discrimination is rampant. Reverse discrimination is where Canadians are being discriminated against. 

Anyway, I'm in a huge minority here on the forum as a Canadian, so talking about Canadian issues is often seen as irrelevant and I am quickly dismissed. Trying to make a bridge between my life as a Canadian and my time here in Spain seems futile.

Re where to live, as per Annwil's question.... I live in a Spanish community for a few reasons. I found a Spanish community to be cheaper. I find it less confusing and I feel safer to be around one ethnicity than many. I live in a kind of poor area, but it's known to be quite safe. In my life, I typically choose poor and safe areas, because then I can save money while still being safe. Saving money and being safe are extremely important to me. That combination is very hard to find, so, to me, that's another way to have your cake and eat it too. People live really close to each other here and there is only a tiny walking & scooter street in front of my apartment building. That's another way to save money - using less space. Some would feel claustrophobic here, but I feel it's cosy. It's noisy here too, with the Spaniards talking all the time. But I love the sound of Spanish and I love the sound of people talking, especially the children. That's another way to save money - a noisy neighbourhood. There are lots of dogs here, which also causes a racket at times, and sometimes you'll find a hunk of dog pooh that has been not picked up. But I love dogs and I miss mine, so I like the sound of them barking, and I really don't even mind the pooh. But that's another way to save money - live around a lot of dogs.

I don't know a lot of Spanish, but I know enough to get around. I believe a person should make an effort to learn a language, but I know that some people can't or don't want to. I feel really bad being a Spaniard who doesn't speak Spanish, and it's very confusing when telling people that I'm a Spaniard, but I don't sound or look like one. 

I'm not sure how long I can live in Spain, but I hope it's forever. What I like about Spain is the culture and the weather. To me, the culture is the architecture of the buildings, the foods, the mannerisms of the Spaniards, the sound of the language, the structure of the language, the enthusiasm, vigor and honesty of the Spaniards, the vastness and colour of the Mediterranean, the purses, the shoes, the clothes, the scooters, the stone streets, the sound of the birds, and so much more. This is what I call the premium fuel in the world for me: Spanish fuel. It's not for everyone, but for me every day here is keeping my tank full.


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## AllHeart

P.S. Malaga has a huge expat community. Someone on the forum gave me the stats on this somewhere on the forum when I first joined - I can't remember where. So that's one of the reasons I'm living here too. Just the few streets around me are primarily Spanish. So I'm living in a little Spanish bubble within an expat city. There are bubbles like this all over Malaga. So when I step out of my bubble, I get to meet people from all over the world. So, Annwil, you might want to consider Malaga as a great expat area to live in.


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## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> What I like about Spain is the culture and the weather. To me, the culture is the architecture of the buildings, the foods, the mannerisms of the Spaniards, the sound of the language, the structure of the language,.......................


I find that difficult to understand that as almost everything varies from Province to Province, even town to town, even the language.

It would seem to more understandable if one were to say something like, I prefer the culture etc of Madrid or Valencia, Barcelona, Jerez, Asturias etc.

PS As I posted AllHeart made another post.  So I guess she is saying she likes Malaga City etc.


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## Alcalaina

larryzx said:


> I find that difficult to understand that as almost everything varies from Province to Province, even town to town, even the language.
> 
> It would seem to more understandable if one were to say something like, I prefer the culture etc of Madrid or Valencia, Barcelona, Jerez, Asturias etc.
> 
> PS As I posted AllHeart made another post. So I guess she is saying she likes Malaga City etc.


Bless her, she's only been here a month. Most of us fall in love with the place we first land in, because it's all so wonderfully new and different, and often the end of a long emotional journey. With luck it will be everlasting love!


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## AllHeart

Yes, I absolutely love Malaga. But I come here due to old love - not new love. So I'm actually hoping the old love doesn't die. 

I finally found the info I was looking for re expats here in Malaga. That was Alcalaina who provided that for me as, the Junta de Andalucia records show there are 49,000 foreign residents in Malaga. Thanks again for that, Alcalaina. 

The population here is just over half a million. So that's 1/10 foreign residents. Here's that thread that gave that stat, which includes lots of other great reasons to live in Malaga....

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp.../350073-what-do-you-think-malaga-capital.html


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Bless her, she's only been here a month. Most of us fall in love with the place we first land in, because it's all so wonderfully new and different, and often the end of a long emotional journey. With luck it will be everlasting love!


How very true!

Our first year in Prague was magic. Everything was new especially for Sandra, we had old friends to help with any problems, we were footloose and fancy free, no work obligations and responsibilities for Sandra Even the deep snow and freezing temperatures were delightful....we had warm clothes and a warm house to come home too.
Enthusiasm gradually dwindled as the years passed and we were both ready for a change.
We were familiar with this part of Spain through a couple of visits to my son and dil's house in 2004and 2005 so when we arrived we knew a little of what to expect. I was more than a bit surprised to see how Spain had changed since I first travelled around in 1967 and we made annual visits to Ibiza from 1980 to 1985. Apart from a weekend in Barcelona in 2006 that was my experience of Spain. 
I can't say I 'fell in love' with Spain, I'm not given to that kind of emotion about places. I'd say more of a quiet, steady enjoyment of a laid-back lifestyle in a pleasing climate and with welcoming friendly people. Good enough to stick around...


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## baldilocks

Yep! almost six years (3rd November is the anniversary of our arrival here with a van load of possessions) and we still love it.


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Yep! almost six years (3rd November is the anniversary of our arrival here with a van load of possessions) and we still love it.


I still love Alcalá after nine years, but whereas at first I wore rose-coloured spectacles and was blind to its faults, now I love it warts and all. You have to make compromises. It's a lot like a marriage in that respect!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I still love Alcalá after nine years, but whereas at first I wore rose-coloured spectacles and was blind to its faults, now I love it warts and all. You have to make compromises. It's a lot like a marriage in that respect!


Talking of 'prancing', as we were...I am beginning to fear my prancing days may be coming to an end, no matter what I wear....

A friend once ruefully remarked that since coming to Spain he rarely went to clubs or parties as most of his friends were going out when he was going to bed and coming home as he was getting up. I know how he feels.

Most events or parties here don't start until ten or eleven or later which means we don't get to bed until gone two in the morning, at least. The last time we were out so late I was too tired to unlock the gates and garage the Disco with the result that some swine unscrewed one of the wing mirrors and stole it, would you believe it...

We're going out tonight and I'm hoping we'll get to eat before ten but I'm not holding out much hope.

It's alright for you youngsters...


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> Yep! almost six years (3rd November is the anniversary of our arrival here with a van load of possessions) and we still love it.


Must be something about that time of year - the 8th anniversary of us making our permanent move to Spain will be on 30th October, although we'd been coming to the house for holidays as often as possible for three and a half years by then.

I feel the same as Alcalaina - I still love it, warts and all.

The place I first "fell in love with" was the Greek Islands and I used to have romantic notions of going to live there. The scales fell from my eyes when I spent a holiday on a very, very small island (3 miles x 2 miles, you could walk right around it in half a day) at the end of September\beginning of October. There were huge storms with waves so high no boats including ferries could put to sea, so people (tourists and locals alike) were trapped on the island. A lot of their water had to be brought in by tanker and by the end of the 2 weeks I'd turn the taps on and no water came out - they were rationing bottled water being sold for drinking\cooking as well. There was no doctor on the island and one night a young Scottish doctor who was there on holiday was called out and asked if she could take a look at an elderly Greek man who'd had a heart attack as no doctor could get over from a neighbouring island. There was nothing she could do for him without equipment or drugs, of course. I kind of went off the idea after that. Funnily enough, I met my OH on that holiday and we've just celebrated 25 years together - and to think our families and friends said oh, these holiday romances, they never last!


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## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> Funnily enough, I met my OH on that holiday and we've just celebrated 25 years together - and to think our families and friends said oh, these holiday romances, they never last!


Just a tad behind you. SWMBO and I met on December 9th 1989, we will have been married 25 years on January 26th next year - holiday in Colombia.


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## Allay sea

I lived in Camposol for awhile. It is divided into four sectors ABCD. D sector is a good few kilometres away from the shopping centre and some of the properties in this sector are falling down due to subsidence also lots of problems with escritura due to the builders not finishing the site. The residents association work very hard voluntarily to maintain the urbanisation. There are some lovely villas for sale and cheap.The expat community is mainly British and I found them all to be helpful and friendly. I didn't like the shopping centre I think it's an eye sore, Mazarron town is about ten minutes away as are the beaches. Personally, I wouldn't like to live there long term as there are much nicer places in Spain but if you want a cheap house you will get a bargain in Camposol.


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## 95995

Lolito said:


> Go to Benidorm, it is like the UK, full of fish & chips shops and people drinking lager at 10 a.m. Oh! and they sell the Daily Mirror.
> 
> pah!


Ad that's all down to the damn Brits. Did you know that Benidorm was once a lovely little village up on the point between the two beaches? There was even Spanish tourism there once (BTW that means that the Spanish used to go there on holidays).

Thanks Brits - NOT!


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## Justina

*Marbella*



EverHopeful said:


> Ad that's all down to the damn Brits. Did you know that Benidorm was once a lovely little village up on the point between the two beaches? There was even Spanish tourism there once (BTW that means that the Spanish used to go there on holidays).
> 
> Thanks Brits - NOT!


Not just Benidorm, Marbella was also a lovely little village although I suppose is a tad more up market than Benidorm. Not sure if the Brits are to blame, though.


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## jojo

EverHopeful said:


> Ad that's all down to the damn Brits. Did you know that Benidorm was once a lovely little village up on the point between the two beaches? There was even Spanish tourism there once (BTW that means that the Spanish used to go there on holidays).
> 
> Thanks Brits - NOT!


If you blame the Brits, you also have to congratulate them. They brought wealth and modernisation to Spain - and whether we like it or not, Spain has embraced a better standard of living because of their tourist industry, helped by the Brits and the rest of Europe.

Pretty little villages are great, but we can't keep them like they were just because we like them like that. European tourists have simply helped spain to move forward. Cos it wasn't just the British, the rest of Europe were involved - even the Spanish, who embraced the prosperous changes.

Jo xxx


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## 95995

Justina said:


> Not just Benidorm, Marbella was also a lovely little village although I suppose is a tad more up market than Benidorm. Not sure if the Brits are to blame, though.


Franco's grand plan for the economy was to boost tourism - unfortunately it went to far. That aside, I can assure you it was the Brits - I was there at the beginning. Marbella was partially down to the Americans.


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## 95995

jojo said:


> If you blame the Brits, you also have to congratulate them. They brought wealth and modernisation to Spain - and whether we like it or not, Spain has embraced a better standard of living because of their tourist industry, helped by the Brits and the rest of Europe.
> 
> Pretty little villages are great, but we can't keep them like they were just because we like them like that. European tourists have simply helped spain to move forward. Cos it wasn't just the British, the rest of Europe were involved - even the Spanish, who embraced the prosperous changes.
> 
> Jo xxx


It wasn't the Brits who brought modernisation to Spain, that was already happening. As for wealth, that's moot, and even if the case, it didn't last. None of the other European countries did quite what the Brits did - although you have to wonder what will result now from the influx of Russians. You really think the Spanish embraced the changes? There has always been a great deal that the Spanish did not embrace. You really think British tourism brought wealth? British tourists were in fact the early wave of low-cost tourists. The best tourists in the 60s / early 70s were in fact the Dutch - behaved themselves, didn't negotiate down the contracts, spent money without quibbling and didn't look for a version of England under the sun. I do realise, though, that you probably weren't even born at the time.


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## jojo

EverHopeful said:


> Franco's grand plan for the economy was to boost tourism - unfortunately it went to far. That aside, I can assure you it was the Brits - I was there at the beginning. Marbella was partially down to the Americans.


Well, whoever it was, it had to happen didnt it. In fact, yes, blame Franco - but for what?? Progress. It maynot be pretty, there may not be women doing their washing in the local stream, donkeys as the main form of transport, but the Spanish economy has lived and evolved off it for many years

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

EverHopeful said:


> Ad that's all down to the damn Brits. Did you know that Benidorm was once a lovely little village up on the point between the two beaches? There was even Spanish tourism there once (BTW that means that the Spanish used to go there on holidays).
> 
> Thanks Brits - NOT!


the Spanish also go to Benidorm on holiday - at least as many Spanish as Brits - coachloads & coachloads. Of course you won't see them in all the 'brit bars' so you can be forgiven for not knowing that they are there

& you can't blame the Brits for the changes either - that was down to a deal between Pedro Zaragoza Orts (the then mayor) & Franco, to get a water supply installed & who then proceeded to essentially invent the package tour - punting it to Northern Europeans

the Brits were the most keen - but you can't exactly blame them!

yes it's still a very popular destination with the Brits - & in one area you might think that you are in Blackpool - but not all of Benidorm is like that


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## Justina

There was a period when the UK restricted how much money could be taken out of the country, but a package holiday could be paid for in the UK which left the tourist only needing to pay for daily expenditure.


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## mrypg9

EverHopeful said:


> Franco's grand plan for the economy was to boost tourism - unfortunately it went to far. That aside, I can assure you it was the Brits - I was there at the beginning. Marbella was partially down to the Americans.


I thought it was Prince Alfons von Hohenlohe who developed the Marbella Club..

P.s. I too visited Benidorm in the 1960s. No Brits but loads of Spanish families enjoying sun, sand and sea.

Ditto Alicante, which reminded me of a smaller version of Bournemouth.

It was a deliberate marketing plan by the Mayor of Benidorm to tap into the emerging air travel based tourism that kick- started Benidorm. Why blame the British for taking the bait that Spain put on the hook?

I hate this snobbery - for that's what it is- about places like Benidorm. Tens of thousands of Spaniards enjoy holidays in Benidorm, Alicante, Torremolinos and similar places. Spain doesn't belong to Brits who bemoan how the country has been 'defiled ' , does it. Spain is a vast country with diverse regions and towns and cities that reflect various different aspects of Spain's economy. I wouldn't want to live in Benidorm but then I wouldn't want to live in Blackpool. 

For every Spaniard who deplores the changes brought about by mass tourism you will find many more others who are indifferent or welcome it, especially in areas where previously there were few if any opportunities for employment. Many are of the opinion that opening up the country to mass tourism from democratic countries played a role in undermining the puritan ethos of francoism. You may think it's 'gone too far'. But that's the view of an outsider looking in. The locals may have opinions that are very different from yours. Interestingly, in the recent controversy over a proposed new development in Marbella, it was pressure from mainly foreign immigrant groups that led to the Ayto abandoning the plan, which although a good thing from the aesthetic point of view, meant the loss of very many job opportunities for locals. 
Spain's coastline was not 'raped' by vulgar lager- drinking Brits. It was presented to them as awillingparticipant by smart Spanish entrepreneurs who saw big money could be made.


----------



## mrypg9

EverHopeful said:


> It wasn't the Brits who brought modernisation to Spain, that was already happening. As for wealth, that's moot, and even if the case, it didn't last. None of the other European countries did quite what the Brits did - although you have to wonder what will result now from the influx of Russians. You really think the Spanish embraced the changes? There has always been a great deal that the Spanish did not embrace. You really think British tourism brought wealth? British tourists were in fact the early wave of low-cost tourists. The best tourists in the 60s / early 70s were in fact the Dutch - behaved themselves, didn't negotiate down the contracts, spent money without quibbling and didn't look for a version of England under the sun. I do realise, though, that you probably weren't even born at the time.


Presumably when you visited Spain you came as a traveller, unlike the others who came as tourists?


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## 95995

xabiachica said:


> the Spanish also go to Benidorm on holiday - at least as many Spanish as Brits - coachloads & coachloads. Of course you won't see them in all the 'brit bars' so you can be forgiven for not knowing that they are there
> 
> & you can't blame the Brits for the changes either - that was down to a deal between Pedro Zaragoza Orts (the then mayor) & Franco, to get a water supply installed & who then proceeded to essentially invent the package tour - punting it to Northern Europeans
> 
> the Brits were the most keen - but you can't exactly blame them!
> 
> yes it's still a very popular destination with the Brits - & in one area you might think that you are in Blackpool - but not all of Benidorm is like that


Well, I must say I'm very happy to know that not all of Benidorm is like Blackpool - I have avoided it since I returned to Europe after living a great many years in Australia. Benidorm was originally reliant on spring water, but that became a major issue as tourism developed in the late 60s/early 70s - in fact we used to go for weeks on end in the summer with only salt water in the pipes. So water was critical. The package tour, though (not invented by the Mayor BTW) was in place before the water. The Spanish in the 60s didn't come by coach - they came by public transport or by car. The Brits came mostly on package tours, as the British tour operators bought up the bulk of the bed nights in advance (and then companies like Cosmos oversold them and left it to people like myself to desperately search for rooms of some kind - any kind anywhere in Benidorm - to accommodate the Brits who had paid for their holiday only to find, on arriving late at night, that there were no rooms for them - that happened elsewhere in Spain too). 

You know, I worked in the tourism industry in Benidorm at the time (so I benefited in that way), I worked in hotel reception and then for a travel agency whose major business was to sell room nights (bulk for the entire season) to overseas tour operators and I was heavily involved in the negotiation of those contracts. I was there when development and tourism really started to take off (and before). I do know what I'm talking about. By far the vast majority of tourists were Brits on ridiculously low priced packages (because the big British tour operators pretty much controlled the market).That said, I left as the boom really got underway.


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## mrypg9

Justina said:


> There was a period when the UK restricted how much money could be taken out of the country, but a package holiday could be paid for in the UK which left the tourist only needing to pay for daily expenditure.


Yes, very true. I remember that time.
Package holidays enabled vulgar working-class Brits to travel to places that had previously been reserved for the often equally vulgar wealthy or the poor but pretentious.

There should have been a law against it


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> It wasn't the Brits who brought modernisation to Spain, that was already happening.
> It was happening, but slowly. Tourism injected money in to Spain's economy and was able to boost the wealth of some quickly.
> As for wealth, that's moot, and even if the case, it didn't last.
> What do you mean it didn't last? Spain has been living off the tourist trade for decades clearly illustated by recent events. When the British tourists stayed away in recent years the tourist trade here suffered.
> None of the other European countries did quite what the Brits did - although you have to wonder what will result now from the influx of Russians.
> The influx of Russians that has stopped due to the war in Ukrania and sanctions by Putin. And this is one of the big problems of basing an economy on tourism; it's a volatile market as Spain has found out to her cost on several occasions.
> You really think the Spanish embraced the changes? There has always been a great deal that the Spanish did not embrace.
> Perhaps "The Spanish" didn't embrace the idea. Who are "the Spanish" anyway? Would you really lump the Asturians together with the Extremeños, the
> You really think British tourism brought wealth?
> British tourists brought enormous wealth, but who to? A few property developers, a few well placed politicians and the occasional Spanish campesino who happened to be the owner of some wasteland near a beach. But apart from _wealth_ tourism provided, and provides, a _living_ for many many people.
> British tourists were in fact the early wave of low-cost tourists. The best tourists in the 60s / early 70s were in fact the Dutch - behaved themselves, didn't negotiate down the contracts, spent money without quibbling and didn't look for a version of England under the sun. I do realise, though, that you probably weren't even born at the time.
> Whether a person was born at the time or not is irrelevant. Just being around at a time doesn't mean you understand the situation any better. Maybe you do and maybe you don't. I was around at the time of the Falklands for example, but I wouldn't say I have a better understanding of what happened than a 25 year old who'd read up on the subject


``¡


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## mrypg9

EverHopeful said:


> Well, I must say I'm very happy to know that not all of Benidorm is like Blackpool - I have avoided it since I returned to Europe after living a great many years in Australia. Benidorm was originally reliant on spring water, but that became a major issue as tourism developed in the late 60s/early 70s - in fact we used to go for weeks on end in the summer with only salt water in the pipes. So water was critical. The package tour, though (not invented by the Mayor BTW) was in place before the water. The Spanish in the 60s didn't come by coach - they came by public transport or by car. The Brits came mostly on package tours, as the British tour operators bought up the bulk of the bed nights in advance (and then companies like Cosmos oversold them and left it to people like myself to desperately search for rooms of some kind - any kind anywhere in Benidorm - to accommodate the Brits who had paid for their holiday only to find, on arriving late at night, that there were no rooms for them - that happened elsewhere in Spain too).
> 
> You know, I worked in the tourism industry in Benidorm at the time (so I benefited in that way), I worked in hotel reception and then for a travel agency whose major business was to sell room nights (bulk for the entire season) to overseas tour operators and I was heavily involved in the negotiation of those contracts. I was there when development and tourism really started to take off (and before). I do know what I'm talking about. By far the vast majority of tourists were Brits on ridiculously low priced packages (because the big British tour operators pretty much controlled the market).That said, I left as the boom really got underway.


So it was all your fault then


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## 95995

jojo said:


> Well, whoever it was, it had to happen didnt it. In fact, yes, blame Franco - but for what?? Progress. It maynot be pretty, there may not be women doing their washing in the local stream, donkeys as the main form of transport, but the Spanish economy has lived and evolved off it for many years
> 
> Jo xxx


If you're talking about Benidorm, which century do you have in mind? And the Spanish economy is pretty much screwed now. That said, there have long been other successful industries in the Spanish economy - take a look at northern Spain. Take a look at agricultural exports, too. The one good thing Spain did was to join the EU.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> the Spanish also go to Benidorm on holiday - at least as many Spanish as Brits - coachloads & coachloads. Of course you won't see them in all the 'brit bars' so you can be forgiven for not knowing that they are there


I was going to say the same.
I know Spanish people who love Benidorm.

This is a good example of misconception, having half of the information and thinking you've got the full picture without even knowing you haven't.


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> If you're talking about Benidorm, which century do you have in mind?


The twentieth


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> Benidorm was originally reliant on spring water, but that became a major issue as tourism developed in the late 60s/early 70s - in fact we used to go for weeks on end in the summer with only salt water in the pipes. So water was critical.


Tarragona late 1980's. Only salt water piped to houses all year round. Why? Nothing to do with tourism.
The huge petro chemical works owned by DOW chemical took all the fresh water.

Water is still a huge problem in Spain and badly planned tourism (big hotels, amusement parks like Terra Mítica and golf courses) and housing developments worsen the situation every year


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## mrypg9

I was just reflecting that my Uncle Frank and Auntie Audrey came to Spain for a package holiday in the 1960s. This was quite an event in our family as up to then our relatives had left the country only to fight foreign wars or emigrate for a better life.
They were enterprising folk, my Aunt and Uncle, as they moved to Spain in the 1970s to open a B&B. I'm sure that their clients behaved themselves as well as the Dutch or any other nationality since although they drank beer and ate fish and chips they took care to do both in a refined and sensitive manner so as not to intrude on the feelings of locals or indeed anyone 'superior' in taste.


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## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> The twentieth


First half of the twentieth century for Benidorm (and in fact a great deal of Spain)? Or maybe reading too many novels? The situation you describe was pretty much confined to small and relatively remote villages, eg. in southern Spain.


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## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Tarragona late 1980's. Only salt water piped to houses all year round. Why? Nothing to do with tourism.
> The huge petro chemical works owned by DOW chemical took all the fresh water.
> 
> Water is still a huge problem in Spain and badly planned tourism (big hotels, amusement parks like Terra Mítica and golf courses) and housing developments worsen the situation every year


Water has always been an issue in Spain - it's to do with the geography - rock (one of the rockiest countries in the world) and climate i.e. You can look back at the moors and what they did to improve irrigation/water supply. You are absolutely correct that tourism and housing development have significantly worsened the situation (and continue to do so). Which goes to the question of whether tourism really brings wealth - given that water is an absolute essential for life.


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> Water has always been an issue in Spain - it's to do with the geography - rock (one of the rockiest countries in the world) and climate i.e. You can look back at the moors and what they did to improve irrigation/water supply. You are absolutely correct that tourism and housing development have significantly worsened the situation (and continue to do so). Which goes to the question of whether tourism really brings wealth - given that water is an absolute essential for life.


As I said, wealth for some, and in this I include The Country. As for The People, well some were a lot better off, others were completely untouched by tourism and others found a way to make a steady living.


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> First half of the twentieth century for Benidorm (and in fact a great deal of Spain)? Or maybe reading too many novels? The situation you describe was pretty much confined to small and relatively remote villages, eg. in southern Spain.


Can't say I agree with you here. See this thread
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...9330-spain-twentieth-century.html#post5414410
PS. I didn't describe a situation of washing clothes in the stream or riding donkeys. That was a reference made by Jojo


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## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Can't say I agree with you here. See this thread
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...9330-spain-twentieth-century.html#post5414410
> PS. I didn't describe a situation of washing clothes in the stream or riding donkeys. That was a reference made by Jojo


Villages - 30 km was a pretty long way in those days. 
BTW If I replied to you, it was an accident as I know it was Jojo who mentioned washing clothes and riding donkeys.


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## jojo

EverHopeful said:


> Villages - 30 km was a pretty long way in those days.
> BTW If I replied to you, it was an accident as I know it was Jojo who mentioned washing clothes and riding donkeys.


All I was trying to point out is that we are all responsible for making changes in other countries. The world is a small place these days and progress, modern living etc is available to all in the west! It's not about blaming Brits for changing things, its about all nations changing each others countries for the better! Without progress (good and bad), there's no improvement in quality of life - think electricity, fast cars, fashion, music, domestic labour saving devises, hospitals.....

We may long to live in 'real Spain' (or anywhere else untouched by progress), but as pretty and cosy as it may look, it's behind and unfair for those having to live like that, just to please expats! 

It's not just the Brits, its humanities need to move forward

Jo xxx


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## Justina

Rain, rain, go to Spain, don't come back here again. I used to hear that quite often when I was growing up in Scotland.


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## mrypg9

There is a great commercial opportunity for some enterprising person: all you need to do is to travel throughout Spain, visiting every town and village and doing a head count of all the Brits found.
This information could be collated and published in book form so discerning persons could make an informed choice as to where to live in Spain and avoid their fellow- citizens.


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## 95995

jojo said:


> All I was trying to point out is that we are all responsible for making changes in other countries. The world is a small place these days and progress, modern living etc is available to all in the west! It's not about blaming Brits for changing things, its about all nations changing each others countries for the better! Without progress (good and bad), there's no improvement in quality of life - think electricity, fast cars, fashion, music, domestic labour saving devises, hospitals.....
> 
> We may long to live in 'real Spain' (or anywhere else untouched by progress), but as pretty and cosy as it may look, it's behind and unfair for those having to live like that, just to please expats!
> 
> It's not just the Brits, its humanities need to move forward
> 
> Jo xxx


My initial point was that not all change is good (Benidorm, where I lived and worked for several years during the 60s, was an example - given first-hand experience all those years ago). I've nothing against progress, never have had, but progress surely means betterment. Oh, and I don't have a concept of 'real Spain' - like the term 'real France' or 'French France' I always wonder what that is supposed to mean. I do, though, take issue with the assumption that all of Spain was backwards and undeveloped before the mass arrival of Brit and other expats, and the assumption that expats do nothing but good.

(Humanity's need, by the way)


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> There is a great commercial opportunity for some enterprising person: all you need to do is to travel throughout Spain, visiting every town and village and doing a head count of all the Brits found.
> This information could be collated and published in book form so discerning persons could make an informed choice as to where to live in Spain and avoid their fellow- citizens.


or just look at the census stats from the ayto.... 


of course that's just those on the padrón, but it's a start


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## mrypg9

I travelled around Spain in the mid 1960s in an old car, a Vauxhall Victor, I think it was.
We - now ex-husband and I, then young students - drove through France, across the Pyrenees and down the coast almost to Cadiz. We then cut across country via Granada to Madrid, then across to the Atlantic coast and home through France. We had very little money and stayed in cheap hotels, eating in the cheapest poorest village ventas. 
I remember quite a few places being run by Spanish wife and German husband teams, presumably men who had stayed after the Civil War. I don't recall meeting anyone else who wasn't Spanish in the eight weeks or so that we were away.
Some memories stand out clearly: Orihuela, small and run-down, where an old lady in black was praying fervently on her knees in a dark church and where a giggling young girl, aged about fourteen, ran up to Dave and handed him a carnation, obviously as a dare. On beaches there were signs stating the accepted dimensions for male and female bathing attire - no bikinis or Speedos - and there was often an old man sitting on a chair next to the sign, presumably to check. I remember visiting an almost deserted Alhambra and the fact that even in fairly large cities like Granada, only the main thoroughfares were asphalted.
Nuns, monks and priests in need of being driven somewhere simply stood by the roadside with their suitcase, nothing so vulgar as a raised thumb. People stopped. There were police, Guardia and soldiers everywhere.
Spain was away from the bigger towns and cities a poor, undeveloped country in those days. We didn't have much money to spend but people were clearly delighted that we chose to spend it in their hotel or venta. There was a great sense of oppression hanging over everything, something I noticed a few years later in socialist Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Many young men had left Spain to work in the UK or Germany in the catering or construction trades. I cannot say for sure but I would guess that these young men came back with tales of a standard of living that must have seemed like a fairy-tale. 
Development in Spain has surely always been a two-way traffic. If Spain in the 1960s had not wanted places like Benidorm to be developed, they wouldn't have been.
I really do not think that the opinions of British immigrants about the pros and cons of Spanish development should be seen as the final word.


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> or just look at the census stats from the ayto....
> 
> 
> of course that's just those on the padrón, but it's a start


Our village padron says we have 1008 inhabitants but that can't be true...
Having all that info in a book would enable people to consult it over a glass of wine in the Home Counties


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Our village padron says we have 1008 inhabitants but that can't be true...
> Having all that info in a book would enable people to consult it over a glass of wine in the Home Counties


how many Brits?


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> how many Brits?


Well, there's me and Sandra..

Not sure, tbh. In the village itself, few if any. In the 'posh' houses on the edge of the village, a fair few but mainly younger, working and with families. A lot of the big houses are empty for most of the year.

Across the A7, quite a few.

Our side of the road is Estepona, the other side Benahavis, down the road a few hundred metres, Marbella.


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## davethespark

Im a newbee and was interested in the original post however I lost the thread ( and the will to live) on about page 8. I was wondering did poor Annwil get any useful answers in the end ? . Or is this more of a self aggrandising shop rather than what it says on the tin An Ex Pats Forum. which I thought was to help each other with useful information


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## Pesky Wesky

davethespark said:


> Im a newbee and was interested in the original post however I lost the thread ( and the will to live) on about page 8. I was wondering did poor Annwil get any useful answers in the end ? . Or is this more of a self aggrandising shop rather than what it says on the tin An Ex Pats Forum. which I thought was to help each other with useful information


Strange first post! 
If you don't find the threads useful, why did you join??

If you find this thread unhelpful you could always search out another; there are a few on Camposol. I have to admit Camposol seems to divide opinions and that's probably always going to happen.

If you want to know anything more specific you can try opening your own thread although the mods might tack it on to an existing thread.

Hope you find other threads/ posts that you enjoy more.


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## xabiaxica

davethespark said:


> Im a newbee and was interested in the original post however I lost the thread ( and the will to live) on about page 8. I was wondering did poor Annwil get any useful answers in the end ? . Or is this more of a self aggrandising shop rather than what it says on the tin An Ex Pats Forum. which I thought was to help each other with useful information


there's lots of useful info on the thread 

if nothing else, it's clear that there are as many kinds of expat as there are areas in Spain

My money is on her moving to Jávea 

:welcome: btw.....


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## davethespark

Pesky Wesky said:


> Strange first post!
> If you don't find the threads useful, why did you join??
> 
> If you find this thread unhelpful you could always search out another; there are a few on Camposol. I have to admit Camposol seems to divide opinions and that's probably always going to happen.
> 
> If you want to know anything more specific you can try opening your own thread although the mods might tack it on to an existing thread.
> 
> Hope you find other threads/ posts that you enjoy more.


 Yes OK but it doesn't answer the question were there any real suggestions as to places to live among all the other stuff?


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## xabiaxica

davethespark said:


> Yes OK but it doesn't answer the question were there any real suggestions as to places to live among all the other stuff?


yes there were


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## mrypg9

The idea that anyone should suggest places for complete strangers to live in the UK let alone Spain strikes me as bizarre.


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## Leper

Dave, People on this forum give much advice especially to those who are about to dip their toe in the water. This water can become turbulent and dangerous (not to mention costly). This advice does not have to be taken. But, the advice is relevant. The reader has got to sift through what might or might not suit. We were all created to be different. Such are the joys of life. So people will accept advice differently.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> The idea that anyone should suggest places for complete strangers to live in the UK let alone Spain strikes me as bizarre.


I don't know. I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that people living in an area can give you an idea of what life is like there. In reality, after seeing threads like this on the forum it becomes obvious that people's wants, needs and opinions are so different that it's difficult to really know how you personally would fare in the place. 
Nobody speaks English - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
Have to use car - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
Only Spanish food available - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
Hilly terrain - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know. I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that people living in an area can give you an idea of what life is like there. In reality, after seeing threads like this on the forum it becomes obvious that people's wants, needs and opinions are so different that it's difficult to really know how you personally would fare in the place.
> Nobody speaks English - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Have to use car - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Only Spanish food available - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Hilly terrain - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?


You missed: 
Not many Brits around - great :whoo: or :yell: awful?
Neighbours friendly - great :whoo: or :yell: awful?

In reality, one can only give facts about any particular area but even then, how one views a fact and what spin puts on it will vary from person to person.


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> In reality, one can only give facts about any particular area but even then, how one views a fact and what spin puts on it will vary from person to person.


In reality, you can look up facts anywhere. What is really valuable about a forum like this is people's opinions and experience of living somewhere. 

True, sometimes you have to wade through a load of seemingly irrelevant waffle on threads like this. But that can help you get an idea of whose opinions you value most.


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## davethespark

Ok we are looking to make a move to the Murcia region. Take a look at the map,there are dozens of potential places ,and no doubt some will be Britted to death and others will be like the land that time forgot. I think Annwil was looking for a little advice which would allow her to pre filter some of the extremes . Peskywesky and Baldilocks hit the nail on the head with the checklist idea. We are driving to Murcia next week to spy out the land . I would love some opinions on various towns and villages to give us place to start. We have very limited Spanish but intend to learn so a community with some Brits and Spanish classes would be great. Clubs and societies also Spanish restaurants and bars If I want a roast dinner I can do it at home . It doesn't need to be all shiny and new and a pool is well down the list of must haves . I would like to be able to walk to the shops and bars but do intend to have a car .We like the beach but know we will get more for our money inland so anywhere within half to an hours drive to the coast would be good. We will be staying initially in Los Alcazares on Mar Menor so anywhere within a Hundred klicks radius would be a possibility.
Looking forward to you good peoples ideas


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## ccm47

You could try looking at Aguilas, it is a Spanish holiday town on the coast but with lots of agricultural activity inland. Some of the bordering villages are Germanic enclaves e.g. Calabardina. 

The Aguilas population is essentially Spanish with a few, but not many British around. The Brits have been there since the railway was built as you would see from the locomotive that now stands on the sea front. It is also popular with the French, Austrians and even Russians. Naturally there are Arabs and South Americans too. 

Thus it remains a positive pleasure to be able to do something as mundane as collecting a letter from our mail box and have 3 chats on the way with each being in a different language: Spanish, French and English as the Germans are also generally happy to practise their English since that is not in my repertoire.
You should be able to attend the free evening classes arranged by the ayto and you will need to do so as few of the Spanish workers speak English fluently as they see no need.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know. I think it's perfectly reasonable to presume that people living in an area can give you an idea of what life is like there. In reality, after seeing threads like this on the forum it becomes obvious that people's wants, needs and opinions are so different that it's difficult to really know how you personally would fare in the place.
> Nobody speaks English - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Have to use car - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Only Spanish food available - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?
> Hilly terrain - great:whoo: or :yell: awful?


Oh yes, that kind of information can be useful. But that's factual, on the ground stuff but yes, very useful, although you still need to check for yourself.
But it's the 'what's the area like? in the broader sense that can only get very subjective responses. Sometimes you can only find out what an area's like by living there through several seasons. 
I just don't like giving advice about that kind of thing. In fact I don't think anyone should take my advice about anything, really.

For reason why see new thread.


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## 95995

davethespark said:


> Ok we are looking to make a move to the Murcia region. Take a look at the map,there are dozens of potential places ,and no doubt some will be Britted to death and others will be like the land that time forgot. I think Annwil was looking for a little advice which would allow her to pre filter some of the extremes . Peskywesky and Baldilocks hit the nail on the head with the checklist idea. We are driving to Murcia next week to spy out the land . I would love some opinions on various towns and villages to give us place to start. We have very limited Spanish but intend to learn so a community with some Brits and Spanish classes would be great. Clubs and societies also Spanish restaurants and bars If I want a roast dinner I can do it at home . It doesn't need to be all shiny and new and a pool is well down the list of must haves . I would like to be able to walk to the shops and bars but do intend to have a car .We like the beach but know we will get more for our money inland so anywhere within half to an hours drive to the coast would be good. We will be staying initially in Los Alcazares on Mar Menor so anywhere within a Hundred klicks radius would be a possibility.
> Looking forward to you good peoples ideas


You at least have gone to the trouble of posting some key requirements - Much more helpful that just saying somewhere with an expat community that isn't subject to subsidence


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## davethespark

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes, that kind of information can be useful. But that's factual, on the ground stuff but yes, very useful, although you still need to check for yourself.
> But it's the 'what's the area like? in the broader sense that can only get very subjective responses. Sometimes you can only find out what an area's like by living there through several seasons.
> I just don't like giving advice about that kind of thing. In fact I don't think anyone should take my advice about anything, really.
> 
> For reason why see new thread.


Just a thought ,but in the absence of ANY information at all perhaps factual stuff would be a good place to start. Subjective is a matter of opinion I fully intend to check closely before making any decisions . Im just trying to save time and fuel before | start driving


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## Leper

Hi Dave, With respect you remind me of the Welch guy on cable tv some years ago who sought out a place in Spain where he could open a snail farm. Having checked out many areas and arriving at the point where he had to make a money offer, he welched. He was never going to buy anything in Spain outside a bowl of paella.

My advice to anybody on these fora thinking of moving/retiring to Spain has always been to rent off season in any area that you feel is unique to your requirements. You can get the best house in a terrific resort and hate the road on which you live. Therefore, a minimum of renting for a month is required. You do not have to buy now . . . you can wait until you have time on hands. Property prices will not spiral out of control again (at least in our lifetime). You have time in your favour.

If you are serious on living in Spain rent, rent, rent and believe me you will arrive at a decsion which will suit you.


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## Lolito

I don't think I would come to a forum asking people where I should be moving to. It is a very important decision that I don't think strangers should choose it for me. If you start by asking 'where I should move to', then I think you are going to have lots of problems. It is like asking 'what should I do with my money'. It is a very private sort of thing. 

However, if I have made my mind up and I know I am going to live in OLIVA and only OLIVA, then I can ask questions about OLIVA, ask people who lives in OLIVA or near OLIVA, but to come to a forum and ask 'Where in Spain should we live?' I think that's not a good start. 

Remember YOU might like exactly the things that I HATE or the other way around, so opinions might matter, but in the end, it is you that have to live there, so the least you could do is travel around and find your place.


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## davethespark

Lolito said:


> I don't think I would come to a forum asking people where I should be moving to. It is a very important decision that I don't think strangers should choose it for me. If you start by asking 'where I should move to', then I think you are going to have lots of problems. It is like asking 'what should I do with my money'. It is a very private sort of thing.
> 
> However, if I have made my mind up and I know I am going to live in OLIVA and only OLIVA, then I can ask questions about OLIVA, ask people who lives in OLIVA or near OLIVA, but to come to a forum and ask 'Where in Spain should we live?' I think that's not a good start.
> 
> Remember YOU might like exactly the things that I HATE or the other way around, so opinions might matter, but in the end, it is you that have to live there, so the least you could do is travel around and find your place.


Did you read my last post?


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## AllHeart

To me, one of the most important things about where I live is my neighbours. That's hard to research online, especially since we have different ideas of what are good neighbours. I really, really lucked out where I'm living to have such awesome neighbours, and feel so grateful. I think that's one of the most important reasons to rent short term - to get a feel for your neighbours.


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## Pazcat

We lucked out too, we only have one neighbour who is never there and those across the streets you would never know existed.
What sounds like 50 howling dogs every evening though but that isn't as bad as it sounds.


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## davethespark

Im not asking for names and addresses ,Just a few hints on places where I might find a small English speaking community ,A place with the usual shops bars and other facilities to make a happy life. I fully agree with the idea of renting first but surely the request for suggestions is just as valid for renting as buying. Is it some kind of rule that says "Thou shalt not get advice" Do we have to come as virgins and search every town and village without any research. This goes back to my first post ,Is this site about asking for advice and opinions or a place for those who know can patronise those like me who don't


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## xabiaxica

davethespark said:


> Im not asking for names and addresses ,Just a few hints on places where I might find a small English speaking community ,A place with the usual shops bars and other facilities to make a happy life. I fully agree with the idea of renting first but surely the request for suggestions is just as valid for renting as buying. Is it some kind of rule that says "Thou shalt not get advice" Do we have to come as virgins and search every town and village without any research. This goes back to my first post ,Is this site about asking for advice and opinions or a place for those who know can patronise those like me who don't



you'll find 'a small English speaking community' in most towns on the coast - the coast is where the majority of Brits seem to head 


as I suggested to the OP - take a look at where I live Home - Xàbia Tourism Portal - Town Council of Xàbia

we have a very international community - about 55% non-Spanish of various nationalities, with Brits as the largest minority


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## AllHeart

davethespark said:


> Im not asking for names and addresses ,Just a few hints on places where I might find a small English speaking community ,A place with the usual shops bars and other facilities to make a happy life. I fully agree with the idea of renting first but surely the request for suggestions is just as valid for renting as buying. Is it some kind of rule that says "Thou shalt not get advice" Do we have to come as virgins and search every town and village without any research. This goes back to my first post ,Is this site about asking for advice and opinions or a place for those who know can patronise those like me who don't


 Dave, you are getting advice - lots of free advice - despite the fact that I see you as being so incredibly gnarly and offensive. However, others may not see you as such. Or they may even like that about you. That's why it's such a great idea to have this forum made of volunteers. People will help you if they want to. No one owes you anything here, including defending or elaborating upon their advice. If you're unhappy with the advice here, you can always hire a real estate agent or two.


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## jojo

davethespark said:


> Im not asking for names and addresses ,Just a few hints on places where I might find a small English speaking community ,A place with the usual shops bars and other facilities to make a happy life. I fully agree with the idea of renting first but surely the request for suggestions is just as valid for renting as buying. Is it some kind of rule that says "Thou shalt not get advice" Do we have to come as virgins and search every town and village without any research. This goes back to my first post ,Is this site about asking for advice and opinions or a place for those who know can patronise those like me who don't


What we did when we first decided to move to Spain was to write a list of what we _needed_ ie, near an airport, a school, town....... and also a list of what we _wanted _ ie, near the sea, countryside, shops, bars... and then we went onto google and more or less drew a line from the airport (our main need) to Marbella (another need). We then looked closer at the towns in the area of the line, found schools, decided which ones we thought we might like and went and looked. We asked around about different places and eventually we rented a place - a place we thought was perfect!!! It was perfect until the novelty wore off and we're glad we only rented that house, because what we thought we'd like, after a while it was a nuisance!!

So advice on areas for you??? Well, in the end its a bit like someone advising someone else on where the best place to live in England might be lol

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Lolito said:


> I don't think I would come to a forum asking people where I should be moving to. It is a very important decision that I don't think strangers should choose it for me. If you start by asking 'where I should move to', then I think you are going to have lots of problems. It is like asking 'what should I do with my money'. It is a very private sort of thing.
> 
> However, if I have made my mind up and I know I am going to live in OLIVA and only OLIVA, then I can ask questions about OLIVA, ask people who lives in OLIVA or near OLIVA, but to come to a forum and ask 'Where in Spain should we live?' I think that's not a good start.
> 
> Remember YOU might like exactly the things that I HATE or the other way around, so opinions might matter, but in the end, it is you that have to live there, so the least you could do is travel around and find your place.


I think that's my perspective, really. Facts you can find by googling. Feel of a place, the ambiance, you get by spending time.
I would have assumed that anyone considering coming to Spain to live wouldn't start with a completely blank slate. Surely, like Dave, you'd have an idea of where you'd like to settle. So you spend a few weeks having an enjoyable holiday in the area you're interested in, fact-finding, evaluating, finding out about things like shops, hospitals, climate and so on. If it suits, you rent for a minimum of a year. You need to experience winter as well as summer. Some people who have only visited Spain on summer vacation may have no idea that it can be cold, even freeze and snow here as well as wall-to-wall sunshine for most of the year.
We had the hottest summer in my six years here. Yet we started heating this week just gone, something we haven't done until the first week in December up to now.

If anyone asked me about where I live, I could bore them senseless telling them how lovely it is, how peaceful, how unspoilt compared to most other places in this area, how lovely my neighbours are..
But I wouldn't because I don't want to share....


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## Lolito

Thing is Dave, I wasn't talking about you particularly. It is a question that comes up here quite often. At least, if you want to move to Spain, you should know more or less the area you want to move to as Spain is actually bigger than England. 

Expats (as in English people) are everywhere in Spain, in some places more than others but if you choose the mediterranean at least that's a start. 

My village, Oliva, is full of expats (of every nationality), we do have English shops where we go and buy pork pies and salad cream, lol! Lots of English/Irish bars, darts teams, football teams, etc but you wouldn't know as they are a minority, obviously most of these people just hang around others from the same country and they get by without speaking a word of Spanish. 

I have builders at home right now, they are English people and they've been in Spain for yonks but hardly speaks any Spanish as (according to them), they don't need it. Each to their own I guess. 

Although I am sure you will be happier in Spain if you make the effort to integrate and communicate in our language, as in my honest opinion, if you want to 'escape' from your own country, you shouldn't go looking for expats. Most English people I know in Spain they behave totally the same way as if they were in the UK, only they wear shorts and T-shirts and sandals but they still think they are in the UK, watching Corrie, eating roat beef on Sundays and buying the 'What's on TV' magazine weekly. 

oh! and moan... they do moan a lot, mostly about how good things are in the UK and here in Spain everything is crappy. 

Lol!


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## baldilocks

Lolito said:


> oh! and moan... they do moan a lot, mostly about how good things are in the UK and here in Spain everything is crappy.
> 
> Lol!


Now you know why a lot of us try to avoid living where *they* do.

I could give you advice but it would not be of any use to you - I don't live where there are expats. There are about 6 households here (in a population of about 5,000) that are other than Spanish. I am about 150-200km away from the Costas which is where most expats seem to go to. Your initial request for advice stated that you wanted an expat area so That ruled me out.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Now you know why a lot of us try to avoid living where *they* do.
> 
> I could give you advice but it would not be of any use to you - I don't live where there are expats. There are about 6 households here (in a population of about 5,000) that are other than Spanish. I am about 150-200km away from the Costas which is where most expats seem to go to. Your initial request for advice stated that you wanted an expat area so That ruled me out.


Baldy, you are an 'expat'. Your Spanish neighbours have to live with you. And you are part of what you call 'they'. Avoiding your fellow-countrymen strikes me as a bit strange. Do you cross the road when you see one
There is no superiority of any kind in living with few fellow-Brits, or fellow-Germans, or whatever. Also, I'm not sure just how many Brits there are in Barcelona, Madrid and other big towns but I'm guessing quite a few.

When we lived in the Czech Republic we didn't live in a town or village. We lived in a hamlet. We didn't live on the coast as the Czech Republic is landlocked. The hamlet had a population of around a hundred or so, no shop, one pub, which on the one occasion we visited we found to be unbelievably filthy and had a clientele of three, one who seemed to be the village idiot and the other two were unbelievably drunk. 
Our water came from the garden well, pumped up electrically. There were no pavements, no street lights, no buses and chickens ran in the road outside our house. We were the only foreigners until a month or so before we left when a hippy-type American seeking rural peace and tranquillity moved in.
The hamlet was called Cerny Vul, Black Bull in English. I never found out why. And we were about five miles from the centre of Prague as the crow flies.
Prague is full of Brits. Some are middle-class professionals, others 'English teachers' enjoying cheap beer and easy sex. Like most immigrants anywhere, they tend to congregate together. We chose not to mix with the Brit crowd as we had long-standing Czech friends. We did socialise occasionally with an American and a Serbian friend.
No-one thought there were any Brownie points in being a Brit in the Boonies, as we were. No-one looked down on the Brit crowd for socialising together. In fact, no-one looked down on or sneered at the way any immigrant chose to live in the Czech Republic.

About the only thing - no, THE only thing - I dislike about Spain is the tendency seen on this Forum at times to judge people on the basis of where and with whom they choose to live. I have never encountered it in any other country I've spent time in. If people want to live on the coast and spend their days smothered in sun-cream by the pool that does not imply lack of aesthetic sensibility or a failure to appreciate 'Spain'. In case it hasn't been noticed, Spanish people like doing that too.
And there are, surprise surprise, Spanish people who like to holiday in Benidorm, Alicante, Torremolinos....and Spanish people actually live there. It doesn't matter where you live or how long you've lived here, your enjoyment of living here is unique to you and is no better or worse than anyone else's.

Just before we left for Spain, we spent a couple of nights at a friend's house in a village which had pavements, street lights and shops with windows which were illuminated at night. After Cerny Vul, it was like Paris.
We vowed we would live in a quiet village, on the coast -I grew up in Dorset, by the sea and missed it when I left - and within easy reach of a quiet town when we chose where we would live in Spain. I have spent much of my life in rural surroundings. 
It has not made me a better person.


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## amespana

In 2010 it was estimated that there were over one million Brits living in Spain, so it is quite difficult to find an area where there isn't a " small British community".There are some small Brits near to where we live but we have nothing in common.


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## mrypg9

Lolito said:


> Although I am sure you will be happier in Spain if you make the effort to integrate and communicate in our language, as in my honest opinion, if you want to 'escape' from your own country, you shouldn't go looking for expats. Most English people I know in Spain they behave totally the same way as if they were in the UK, only they wear shorts and T-shirts and sandals but they still think they are in the UK, watching Corrie, eating roat beef on Sundays and buying the 'What's on TV' magazine weekly.
> 
> oh! and moan... they do moan a lot, mostly about how good things are in the UK and here in Spain everything is crappy.
> 
> Lol!



Lolito - you are 'talking' to British expats/immigrants on this Forum, you know. Maybe some reading your post wear shorts and sandals, and eat roast beef on Sundays...they might even commit the heinous crime of watching British tv...
And why the **** shouldn't they, if that's what turns them on? Should there be a set of rules for how immigrants should organise their lives in Spain?

You must be incredibly unlucky with your British neighbours. In the six years I've been here I have yet to come across a Brit moaning about Spain. Plenty of Brits who moan about how and where other Brits choose to live in Spain, though.

The British immigrants I know, like me and OH, are very happy with our lives ...in fact, it's really no big deal, same life more or less, without having to work though, and in attractive surroundings with a great climate.

But at the end of the day, we live in Spain. Not Paradise or the Garden of Eden. We tried to get to those places but never quite managed to.....


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## jojo

Its ironic really. A Brit moving to an area where there arent any other Brits - well then there is one Brit in that area - and it doesnt matter at all. In fact, I tried to move to a non Brit area when we first moved to Spain, but actually, I missed being able to chat with people in my "mother tongue" about familiar stuff. Thats also a gap that this forum fills. In the end, like all countries, its a mixing pot and we all bump along together

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

this is an interesting article ........ Why I will never truly integrate into Spanish life- Spain Buddy

I suspect that it describes the majority of us to some extent

even Baldi admits to a 'treat' of English fish and chips now & then


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Its ironic really. A Brit moving to an area where there arent any other Brits - well then there is one Brit in that area - and it doesnt matter at all. In fact, I tried to move to a non Brit area when we first moved to Spain, but actually, I missed being able to chat with people in my "mother tongue" about familiar stuff. Thats also a gap that this forum fills. In the end, like all countries, its a mixing pot and we all bump along together
> 
> Jo xxx


We didn't really give it a thought - we just wanted a nice comfortable roomy house in a beautiful location but not out in the sticks. We ended up inland, in a town where there were only a dozen or so Brits, and they were really helpful when we were finding our way around. But it doesn't mean we all became best friends - we all have different tastes and opinions. It's just nice, as you say, to speak in one's native language now and again.


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## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> this is an interesting article ........ Why I will never truly integrate into Spanish life- Spain Buddy
> 
> I suspect that it describes the majority of us to some extent
> 
> even Baldi admits to a 'treat' of English fish and chips now & then


She posted on here for a while, didn't she? Very entertaining writer, and very observant!


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> She posted on here for a while, didn't she? Very entertaining writer, and very observant!


she did - she doesn't 'do' forums that often - she's on FB all the time though!

she does have a way of getting right to the point


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> We didn't really give it a thought - we just wanted a nice comfortable roomy house in a beautiful location but not out in the sticks. We ended up inland, in a town where there were only a dozen or so Brits, and they were really helpful when we were finding our way around. But it doesn't mean we all became best friends - we all have different tastes and opinions. It's just nice, as you say, to speak in one's native language now and again.


we didn't think about it either - though we'd been holidaying here for years so we were aware of a couple of 'brit bars' & one 'brit' shop (which was prohibitively expensive )


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## Leper

Lolito said:


> Thing is Dave, I wasn't talking about you particularly. It is a question that comes up here quite often. At least, if you want to move to Spain, you should know more or less the area you want to move to as Spain is actually bigger than England.
> 
> Expats (as in English people) are everywhere in Spain, in some places more than others but if you choose the mediterranean at least that's a start.
> 
> My village, Oliva, is full of expats (of every nationality), we do have English shops where we go and buy pork pies and salad cream, lol! Lots of English/Irish bars, darts teams, football teams, etc but you wouldn't know as they are a minority, obviously most of these people just hang around others from the same country and they get by without speaking a word of Spanish.
> 
> I have builders at home right now, they are English people and they've been in Spain for yonks but hardly speaks any Spanish as (according to them), they don't need it. Each to their own I guess.
> 
> Although I am sure you will be happier in Spain if you make the effort to integrate and communicate in our language, as in my honest opinion, if you want to 'escape' from your own country, you shouldn't go looking for expats. Most English people I know in Spain they behave totally the same way as if they were in the UK, only they wear shorts and T-shirts and sandals but they still think they are in the UK, watching Corrie, eating roat beef on Sundays and buying the 'What's on TV' magazine weekly.
> 
> oh! and moan... they do moan a lot, mostly about how good things are in the UK and here in Spain everything is crappy.
> 
> Lol!


You know what Lolito, I agree with you. I hear Brits complaining about immigrants to the UK refusing to learn English, participate in English pastimes and maintaining their love of their mother country.

Yet, Mick-the-Brit arrives in Spain (i) Refuses to learn Spanish (ii) Must watch UK tv (iii) keeps supporting Millwall (iv) Makes no effort to integrate (v) Advises everybody that Spain is better because of his presence (vi) Expects to be able to buy spam and sliced bread along with Kelloggs Cornflakes etc. in the local supermarket(vii) Keeps telling us of all the great things that's keeping Britain GREAT.

Then you have Paddy-the-Irishman (me for one) who loves the sun, worships the good weather, thanks God that he can swim every day, buy beer at less than half the price in Ireland etc. And most of my friends are Brits. I love listening to them complaining about Spain and their talking up of the UK. They love their dogs, dislike anybody who is better off than they are and are never short of words.

I love the Spaniards too. What a colourful people! They say what they mean, love life. Nothing bothers them. They love their customs, enjoy their families, will not rush if there were an earthquake.

I am glad I live in Spain often. In fact, I miss the place when I am in Ireland.


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> this is an interesting article ........ Why I will never truly integrate into Spanish life- Spain Buddy
> 
> I suspect that it describes the majority of us to some extent
> 
> even Baldi admits to a 'treat' of English fish and chips now & then


Thanks, I enjoyed reading that. The property we owned in Canada was in a small town in the Ottawa Valley, Almonte. It had around 4000 inhabitants and its only claim to fame was that James Naismith, the inventor of basketball, was born there. It was in an idyllic rural setting, real cow country. Most of the population came from Scottish immigrant stock. A few miles away, in another town, most people were of Irish stock. In the past there had been frequent punch-ups between the two 'communities'.
What surprised me was the attachment of the descendants of these settlers to their roots. Almonte was very Scottish with many place names reflecting that. We were in Lanark County, had a River Clyde and Perth was just up the highway. Every August the town, like many other in the area, held a Highland Games with pipers, caber-tossing, dancing and an abundance of tartan. Sandra, of the Kincaid clan, wore her kilt with clan tartan to these events.
These people were Canadian to the core. Tartan, shortbread, hot dogs and Molson Canadian beer mingled happily. It was a real fun day and culminated in a ceilidh later that evening.
It's interesting to compare attitudes here although I know the situation and history is different. 
I'm a Brit in Spain, English born and bred, or as my ex-husband often said, 'Dorset born and Dorset bred, strong in the arm and thick in the head'. If I spoke Spanish like a native, ate paella every Sunday, banished English books, tv and radio from the house and socialised only with Spaniards I would be the same. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of that fact and I don't intend to shed decades of experience and culture just because I got on a plane and left the country of my birth.


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## Elle1971

Alcalaina said:


> She posted on here for a while, didn't she? Very entertaining writer, and very observant!


Ooh check you guys being a gorgeous bunch 

I still sashay around these boards from time to time. I'm now wondering if I know any of you... and yes Xabiachica - I live on Facebook ha ha. 

Glad you enjoyed the article. I just don't think we need to beat ourselves up so much... and certainly not take criticism to heart. I'm not as harsh with my observations as hubby is though. His stuff normally starts with "I hate... ... ..." 

Seriously - thanks for the compliment. Have had an awful week, so it's nice to hear something sweet. 

Elle x


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## mrypg9

Elle1971 said:


> Ooh check you guys being a gorgeous bunch
> 
> I still sashay around these boards from time to time. I'm now wondering if I know any of you... and yes Xabiachica - I live on Facebook ha ha.
> 
> Glad you enjoyed the article. I just don't think we need to beat ourselves up so much... and certainly not take criticism to heart. I'm not as harsh with my observations as hubby is though. His stuff normally starts with "I hate... ... ..."
> 
> Seriously - thanks for the compliment. Have had an awful week, so it's nice to hear something sweet.
> 
> Elle x


I thought the bits about the Spanish language and Pets were particularly 'spot-on'. 
I'm very lazy too....I speak Spanish fluently and very ungrammatically but people understand me even if I don't always understand them. I keep meaning to Do Something About It but as I've managed up to now in very many varied situations I think, well, it will get better or it won't and in any case I won't starve and I'll be able to explain to the doctor that it's my right leg that's causing problems and not my left ear.

As for pets...one of our dogs like yours has a face only a mother could love and like you, I do. She was adopted, a rescue dog nobody wanted, maltreated and abandoned., outdoors in all weathers. She now has her bed at the foot of our bed and our other boy sleeps on our bed, head on pillow next to me, something no doubt many Spaniards might find a tad perverted.

Making people feel they're somehow guilty of moral failings if they eat sausage rolls or watch Corrie really annoys me.
So I enjoyed reading your piece and will look out for more.


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## Justina

*Elle 1971*



mrypg9 said:


> I thought the bits about the Spanish language and Pets were particularly 'spot-on'.
> I'm very lazy too....I speak Spanish fluently and very ungrammatically but people understand me even if I don't always understand them. I keep meaning to Do Something About It but as I've managed up to now in very many varied situations I think, well, it will get better or it won't and in any case I won't starve and I'll be able to explain to the doctor that it's my right leg that's causing problems and not my left ear.
> 
> As for pets...one of our dogs like yours has a face only a mother could love and like you, I do. She was adopted, a rescue dog nobody wanted, maltreated and abandoned., outdoors in all weathers. She now has her bed at the foot of our bed and our other boy sleeps on our bed, head on pillow next to me, something no doubt many Spaniards might find a tad perverted.
> 
> Making people feel they're somehow guilty of moral failings if they eat sausage rolls or watch Corrie really annoys me.
> So I enjoyed reading your piece and will look out for more.


Since elle sounds good fun,
is there anyway to find her apart from facebook?


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## xabiaxica

Justina said:


> Since elle sounds good fun,
> is there anyway to find her apart from facebook?


here's Elle's website Spain Buddy - Enjoy the best of Spain...- Spain Buddy


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## hopefulgeek

annwil said:


> Hi xabiachica, I had a look, It looks wonderful. Thanks for all your information. I think most people have the wrong idea of what we are looking for. (Probably my own fault for mentioning 'expat community' lol.


Hello - please don't be disheartened - I had a similar experience yesterday whereby some responses I received clearly mis-judged me and made presumptions about who I am as a person and what I am looking for - which was upsetting. For example, I think it was assumed that I had no intention of integrating in Spain - which, couldn't be further from the truth. For example, I'm studying the Spanish language and culture at nights through University and hope to integrate and be part of a Spanish community. It was also suggested that I live with less if I was concerned about security - which assumes I live some lavish lifestyle and am a materialistic person - which again is incredibly presumptuous, incorrect and insulting. I merely was enquiring about the safety and security of particular communities which is the same research I would perform no matter where in the world I was hoping to reside. However, on the whole I think most people are trying to be helpful - I wish you all the best.


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## mrypg9

hopefulgeek said:


> Hello - please don't be disheartened - I had a similar experience yesterday whereby some responses I received clearly mis-judged me and made presumptions about who I am as a person and what I am looking for - which was upsetting. For example, I think it was assumed that I had no intention of integrating in Spain - which, couldn't be further from the truth. For example, I'm studying the Spanish language and culture at nights through University and hope to integrate and be part of a Spanish community. It was also suggested that I live with less if I was concerned about security - which assumes I live some lavish lifestyle and am a materialistic person - which again is incredibly presumptuous, incorrect and insulting. I merely was enquiring about the safety and security of particular communities which is the same research I would perform no matter where in the world I was hoping to reside. However, on the whole I think most people are trying to be helpful - I wish you all the best.


That's why I don't like suggesting places for people to live. People's views of the same place will vary immensely depending on past experiences, age, physical condition, tastes and many other variables.
The best advice would be to spend time in loads of different places to get a 'feel' for them, if you can.
Yes, most people on this site are very helpful. I certainly got a load of helpful info when I thought of moving here. Like you I had a few unhelpful replies but most people mean well and every Forum has a few miserable old gits.
One thing I would say, though....although some places are more prone to crime than others, nowhere is totally immune these days. And in Spain as in the UK it's the poorest who suffer the most from crime.
Happy hunting


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## warby

davethespark said:


> Ok we are looking to make a move to the Murcia region. Take a look at the map,there are dozens of potential places ,and no doubt some will be Britted to death and others will be like the land that time forgot. I think Annwil was looking for a little advice which would allow her to pre filter some of the extremes . Peskywesky and Baldilocks hit the nail on the head with the checklist idea. We are driving to Murcia next week to spy out the land . I would love some opinions on various towns and villages to give us place to start. We have very limited Spanish but intend to learn so a community with some Brits and Spanish classes would be great. Clubs and societies also Spanish restaurants and bars If I want a roast dinner I can do it at home . It doesn't need to be all shiny and new and a pool is well down the list of must haves . I would like to be able to walk to the shops and bars but do intend to have a car .We like the beach but know we will get more for our money inland so anywhere within half to an hours drive to the coast would be good. We will be staying initially in Los Alcazares on Mar Menor so anywhere within a Hundred klicks radius would be a possibility.
> Looking forward to you good peoples ideas


My wife and I, are young retirees, and returned in Dec 2014 after a month staying in Los Alcazares (LA). In winter it is like Marmite, love or hate it. The Mar Menor area is lovely, flat with Mountains in the distance. It was probably only 1% occupied during the time we were there, all major supermarkets were open, outdoor markets were vibrant, about half the restaurants and bars are open, do try Heming-ways Bistro in the plaza it is wonderful. Also try the restaurant at the end of the pier. LA is a very sprawling residential area with a lot of deserted properties in the low season. 
South of LA: all of the the towns on the Mar Menor are very very quite almost ghost like. 
La Manga was a largely deserted concrete strip, not our cup of tea.
Cabo de Palos is worth a visit, go on a Sunday for the big outdoor market. 
The city of Cartegna is impressive for a day visit or more.
North of LA: Santiago de la Ribera IMO was better than LA only because it is more compact.
I have read with interest some of the complaints about people looking for ex-pat areas. I do not feel we exclusively want such an area but until our Spanish improves it would be nice to be able to communicate in English with others.
We would like to find somewhere that remains populated between October and March. We have found too many places on the Spanish coast that are largely closed and will leave us without enough to do. 
We are still considering spending the winter in LA, we are hesitating because it is quiet and we are worried it maybe too quiet for 6 months over the winter. Alternatively we are looking for a more lively town, we liked the Alicante area or around Albir. 
Could anybody advise us of suitable places to stay in Murcia or Costa Blanca?

Martin


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## Leper

I just Read Elle Dreaper's piece and it is an entertaining read. Then I look around where my daughter lives in Ireland and see Brits settling there (to a more fierce climate than most of the UK) both to work and in retirement. The first things that come to mind the Brits love (i) Irish Music (ii) Irish Food (iii) Guinness and Irish Whiskey (iv) Irish Sport (very little poncy association football here) (v) Even the Irish language, I kid you not. 

To their eternal credit they have become more Irish than the Irish themselves. This is no surprise to us Irish because it happened for hundreds of years before.

I listen to UK radio and see UK television and even read some UK newspapers and I notice that many Brits have problems with Asians arriving in Britain and refuse to speak English, adapt the British way of life, complain about all things British. [For some reason when the Irish emigrated to the UK we embraced everything British with the exception of your goddawful pints of bitter].

Therefore, you arrive in Spain, could not care a whit if you never spoke any Spanish, treat Spanish alcohol like it was poison, would not eat paella if you were starving, think Spanish tv is for the braindead etc.

Surely, emigration to anywhere is a licence to change one's outlook in almost every way. Of course, you want England to win the World Cup, of course you hold on to Posh Spice like she was worth holding onto etc. But, you miss out if you do not improve your Spanish, enjoy Spanish cuisine, love Spanish music etc.

My Opinion (for what it is worth) and not to be driven down the throat of anybody - Why did you leave the UK in the first place? Answers on a post-card please!!!!!!!!!!


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## mrypg9

Leper said:


> I just Read Elle Dreaper's piece and it is an entertaining read. Then I look around where my daughter lives in Ireland and see Brits settling there (to a more fierce climate than most of the UK) both to work and in retirement. The first things that come to mind the Brits love (i) Irish Music (ii) Irish Food (iii) Guinness and Irish Whiskey (iv) Irish Sport (very little poncy association football here) (v) Even the Irish language, I kid you not.
> 
> To their eternal credit they have become more Irish than the Irish themselves. This is no surprise to us Irish because it happened for hundreds of years before.
> 
> I listen to UK radio and see UK television and even read some UK newspapers and I notice that many Brits have problems with Asians arriving in Britain and refuse to speak English, adapt the British way of life, complain about all things British. [For some reason when the Irish emigrated to the UK we embraced everything British with the exception of your goddawful pints of bitter].
> 
> Therefore, you arrive in Spain, could not care a whit if you never spoke any Spanish, treat Spanish alcohol like it was poison, would not eat paella if you were starving, think Spanish tv is for the braindead etc.
> 
> Surely, emigration to anywhere is a licence to change one's outlook in almost every way. Of course, you want England to win the World Cup, of course you hold on to Posh Spice like she was worth holding onto etc. But, you miss out if you do not improve your Spanish, enjoy Spanish cuisine, love Spanish music etc.
> 
> My Opinion (for what it is worth) and not to be driven down the throat of anybody - Why did you leave the UK in the first place? Answers on a post-card please!!!!!!!!!!


We left for a change in lifestyle, Spain at that time not on the agenda. It seems that there are two paths you can take when you retire, one being to stay where you are, in which case your path through life will be a gradually descending one. Or, second path, you do something different, breaking away from the usual. It's like leaving home again, butfor the second time.
Which path you choose is your personal choice and both are equally worthwhile.

My personal view is that wherever you go you fit in and adapt,the 'When in Rome' approach. We had both lived in other countries so we were used to different cultures and customs. It's easier to slide into communities in larger towns and cities but most older immigrants tend to choose towns and cities anyway. Again, no brownie points for being a Brit in the boonies.

Wherever you end up you will remain a Brit, however good your command of Spanish or how many Spanish friends you have. Humans aren't snakes and can't shed skins and remake themselves, however much they may want to. It would seem that the inability or unwillingness of so many immigrants to the UK to fit in to their new communities, encouraged by the dodgy doctrine of multiculturalism, has not been beneficial for either hosts or newcomers. If that's not good for the UK, 'ethnic separatism' can't be good here in Spain.

But there are no rules that prescribe where or how to,live in Spain. Places change and will go on changing with or without Alf and Mavis from Macclesfield turning up in the pueblo. Or Mary and Sandra.

By the way, my father was Irish, from Cork. Family name McMullen. A very common name in those parts, I'm told....


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## Pokerface

jojo said:


> Its ironic really. A Brit moving to an area where there arent any other Brits - well then there is one Brit in that area - and it doesnt matter at all. In fact, I tried to move to a non Brit area when we first moved to Spain, but actually, I missed being able to chat with people in my "mother tongue" about familiar stuff. Thats also a gap that this forum fills. In the end, like all countries, its a mixing pot and we all bump along together
> 
> Jo xxx


I don´t really get the anti Brit stance some people take. I´ve had neighbours of various nationalities and no two are alike. I´ve had good Spanish neighbours and bad. Likewise with the Brit´s and Germans. Some people are lovely and respectful of their neighbours, and others are A holes! I blame the Mother´s, not the country of origin.


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## alborino

Pokerface said:


> I blame the Mother´s, not the country of origin.


You'd be of the male gender I think arty::wof:


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## mrypg9

alborino said:


> You'd be of the male gender I think arty::wof:




Well said!! 
Although, in my many years' experience of teaching I have found it's generally mum who does most of the work of childrearing, for better or worse. Fathers were generally conspicuous by their absence.
The absence of positive male role models is sadly more common these days than not.


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## Pokerface

alborino said:


> You'd be of the male gender I think arty::wof:


I was lucky to be blessed with having the most wonderful woman as my Mother.
I fully accept and understand there are many others not so lucky


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## Pokerface

mrypg9 said:


> Well said!!
> Although, in my many years' experience of teaching I have found it's generally mum who does most of the work of childrearing, for better or worse. Fathers were generally conspicuous by their absence.
> The absence of positive male role models is sadly more common these days than not.


Yup, didn´t really know him!


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## Isobella

I often hear them say on the Place in the Sun programmes "we want to live amongst the Spanish". Yet they don't speak any Spanish i could understand better if they said they want to live in a residential area. I suppose they don't realise how long it takes to have a decent conversation in another language.


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## alborino

Isobella you are so right. They somehow think the only thing that has limited their language count to 0.9 is not being in another country. 

"When I get there I'll sign up for a course of 6 one hour lessons then sit in the bar listening to the locals and 3 weeks later fluent".

If only. I had to sleep with a spaniard who didn't speak English for 5 years before my Spanish reached a good level 

Of course there is that rare breed that speak 5 languages and say it was easy  They certainly don't help.


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## mrypg9

Pokerface said:


> Yup, didn´t really know him!


Mine died when I was a toddler, don't remember him. I too was brought up by my mum and also my grandparents. My gran was a fearsome woman born in 1889, she lived into her nineties. 
Her role model was Queen Mary, wife of George Fifth. Her views on childrearing were Victorian...
But I am grateful for such an upbringing...I brought my son up along much the same lines.
My work experience was chiefly in a very rundown deprived council estate area. Students with two parents still married to each other were rare indeed. It says a lot about the mothers that so many students grew to be decent adults with good jobs and families of their own...I keep in touch with some of them over thirty years on and across a continent....


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## mrypg9

Pokerface said:


> Yup, didn´t really know him!


Duplicate, sorry


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