# Dogs - raw feeding



## donz

Hey all

I feed my dogs a raw diet and wondered if any of you do in the hope you will know of some suppliers?

The butcher's remnants won't be enough to feed my gang! Here in the UK there are a few supplier of the 'BARF' diet but as Spain can be a little in the dark ages I am not sure I hold large hopes :juggle:


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## uffington15

donz said:


> Hey all
> 
> I feed my dogs a raw diet and wondered if any of you do in the hope you will know of some suppliers?
> 
> The butcher's remnants won't be enough to feed my gang! Here in the UK there are a few supplier of the 'BARF' diet but as Spain can be a little in the dark ages I am not sure I hold large hopes :juggle:


I was feeding ours raw, i.e. chicken wings etc, the odd bit of offal but have now started them on dry food ready for the move. Although I believe BARF is best I dont fancy the idea of going over there and having trouble finding a supple. Will watch this with interest.


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## donz

know what you mean, but you know you can always feed dry 1 meal and raw the other meal each day if your butcher will be friends wit you - that will be still so much more beneficial than 100% dried


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## xabiaxica

donz said:


> know what you mean, but you know you can always feed dry 1 meal and raw the other meal each day if your butcher will be friends wit you - that will be still so much more beneficial than 100% dried


I have no idea what BARF is - doesn't bear thinking tbh



and I don't have a dog


but you'll tend to find that the Spanish eat, or at least use, every bit of an animal to feed themselves!


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## donz

Bones and Raw Food


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## xabiaxica

donz said:


> Bones and Raw Food


.......


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## mrypg9

I have mixed feelings about this BARF diet. With some dog owners it's almost a cult. Vets seem to have mixed views about it.
We feed our Ridgeback on best butchers' meat cooked with pasta, carrots and green vegetables as we are not keen on manufactured dog foods but the only bones he has are enormous marrow bones the butcher gives us for him. He never eats them.
The best food for your dog imo is what he thrives on best. Our Little Azor has never had any health problems and is fit, well and happy.


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## donz

absolutely, not all dogs will be suited to a raw diet, but the majority are.,,,,

oops hit reply too fast and now smileys gone

one of mine can't have dried food at all so I will be on a mission


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> I have mixed feelings about this BARF diet. With some dog owners it's almost a cult.


This I agree with - I have seen little evidence that BARF is any better than any other diet for dogs. The thinking seems to be that dogs in the wild would eat that therefore it must be good for them



mrypg9 said:


> as we are not keen on manufactured dog foods


I have to ask why not?


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> This I agree with - I have seen little evidence that BARF is any better than any other diet for dogs. The thinking seems to be that dogs in the wild would eat that therefore it must be good for them
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask why not?



Mainly because when we lived in the CR the quality of tinned dog food was abysmal. Butchers meat wasn't much better either. The best quality kibble available was also poor. So we did our best with the fresh foods available and by the time he got here Our Little Azor was set in his ways.
I've also read a lot about poor quality manufactured dog food and what allegedly goes into it  but it didn't harm the German Shepherd we had in the UK who lived to a ripe pld age on Pedigree Chum and kibble.


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## mrypg9

donz said:


> absolutely, not all dogs will be suited to a raw diet, but the majority are.,,,,
> 
> oops hit reply too fast and now smileys gone
> 
> one of mine can't have dried food at all so I will be on a mission


I'll ask at the dog refugio I volunteer at, the vets there might know where dried foodstuffs are available...although I can't remember where in Spain you live so that might not be helpful.
The obvious danger from raw meat especially chicken in this climate is salmonella. 
I've read a lot of stuff about BARF but I've come to the conclusion that Billinghurst's theory of the evolution of the dog from wild to domestic isn't very convincing which has implications for his dietary prescription.


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## jojo

I'm all for animals (including humans) eating how nature intended them to!! IMO tinned and dried dog food wasnt around when dogs intestines were being made!!!!????

Jo xxx


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## donz

thanks mrmypg, we will be in Almogia but the folks are in Funengirola so anywhere around the region will help.

I already have a source of a very good dried food so half way there :clap2:

Salmonella - just for info, dogs stomachs are very different to ours and can cope with many more bugs than us humans. Salmonella IS a risk of course, but not in the same intensity as us, it would have to be an intense strain to cause a problem (where in humans just a touch can give us a bad tum). So long as the poultry is handled correctly should still be ok 

Talking of climate - my hair is a nightmare - not sure I am ever going to bother 'sorting' it again once I get there lmao!


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I'm all for animals (including humans) eating how nature intended them to!! IMO tinned and dried dog food wasnt around when dogs intestines were being made!!!!????Jo xxx



If that's the case, then you'd better get yer bow and arrow out!! Put yer best skins on!! Start hunting! Very little of the food you now eat was around a hundred years ago!!
How do we know how nature intended us to eat? How far back in human evolution would you like to go? Dogs like humans have evolved - if you are a Darwinian you will believe the environment played the major role in this evolution - and our bodies have adapted to our changing conditions.
Most humans alive now would have extreme difficulty in adapting to the diet of even five hundred years ago.
And what about different countries and climates? 
Nature (whatever that is) isn't fixed and finite, it's amazingly adaptable. 
If we did 'what nature intended us to do' -by which I infer you mean back to our earliest ancestors - you'd have to forgo a hell of a lot of things: synthetic fabrics, most medicines and medical treatment, frozen food, many types of fruit and vegetables,even potatoes, not to mention all the technological gadgets we enjoy.
That's part of the reason I find BARF propagator Billinghirst's theory a bit dodgy.


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> If we did 'what nature intended us to do' -by which I infer you mean back to our earliest ancestors - you'd have to forgo a hell of a lot of things: synthetic fabrics, most medicines and medical treatment, frozen food, many types of fruit and vegetables,even potatoes, not to mention all the technological gadgets we enjoy.


You would probably also have to forego 90% of the population.


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## mrypg9

donz said:


> thanks mrmypg, we will be in Almogia but the folks are in Funengirola so anywhere around the region will help.
> 
> I already have a source of a very good dried food so half way there :clap2:
> 
> Salmonella - just for info, dogs stomachs are very different to ours and can cope with many more bugs than us humans. Salmonella IS a risk of course, but not in the same intensity as us, it would have to be an intense strain to cause a problem (where in humans just a touch can give us a bad tum). So long as the poultry is handled correctly should still be ok
> 
> Talking of climate - my hair is a nightmare - not sure I am ever going to bother 'sorting' it again once I get there lmao!


No, don't give up...although it's not so easy for me either to keep my hair in good condition and style. There are good products suited to hot humid conditions available in supermarkets and I've been lucky and found a stylist who colours well (quite easy) and more importantly cuts well (not so easy to find!).

I hear what you say about dogs' stomachs but I am not convinced of the superiority of the BARF diet. As I said, we considered it for our RR but to be frank, after reading as much of the material we could lay our hands on, we decided it had no basis in nutritional science and could be dangerous. It seems yet another New Age holistic theory that in a few years' time could be forgotten like other fads.
Practically every one of Billinghurst's assertions have been proved no have no evidential basis - quite the opposite - and common sense tells you that eating bones could be harmful to dogs' stomachs.
There is also the danger to humans and other non-BARF dogs from salmonella-infected faeces.
Of course many dogs thrive on this diet -as do the majority which don't eat BARF - and it's up to individual choice.
It seems to me that instead of preaching BARF with a self-righteous almost religious fervour, as some BARF advocates do, we should be criticising the overall poor quality of many manufactured and processed pet foods.
And just wanted to add...many vets would disagree with what you say about dogs' stomachs. There are also of course the dangers to humans when handling potentially infected raw meat, however careful your hygiene. 
Interestingly, Billinghurst himself admits he has no scientific evidence to substantiate his theories, just case studies and anecdotal evidence.


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## donz

agree mostly there, many BARFers do preach which I find really quite wrong. I have fed my dogs raw for 6 years now, but have no problem with a high quality dried or even a wet food (like Natures Diet). I prefer to stay away from the debates 

Different diets suit different dogs and humans - it also has to be convenient for us 

The hair thing I will have to find a decent hairdresser - hilariously, it is one of the things I am dreading - changing hairdresser!!!


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## mrypg9

donz said:


> agree mostly there, many BARFers do preach which I find really quite wrong. I have fed my dogs raw for 6 years now, but have no problem with a high quality dried or even a wet food (like Natures Diet). I prefer to stay away from the debates
> 
> Different diets suit different dogs and humans - it also has to be convenient for us
> 
> The hair thing I will have to find a decent hairdresser - hilariously, it is one of the things I am dreading - changing hairdresser!!!


Yes...different diets for different people/dogs., as you say.
But I think the debates are important as many people might be ignorant of the scientific standing of this 'theory'. Knowledge is power, as they say.
Today's dinner menu for Our Little Azor is stewed beef with pasta and carrots 
Breakfast was high-quality dried food.
He has a large bone as a treat, for chewing and playing....and taunting next door's dog. 
Yes, I dreaded changing my cutter. We could afford the very best when we were in Prague - until the £ plunged just before we left as before that our £ gave us huge purchasing power. We went to a wonderful young man named Mark Weston who has a salon in central Prague where he sees only one client at a time and the walls are covered in modern art with strange sculptures all around.
I've got shortish 'awkward' hair so cut is very important.
No way would we pay top Marbella prices so we were lucky in finding a reasonably -priced stylist a five minute drive away. 
There are a couple of hairstylists in our village, always busy, but the prices are so low I would be worried about the quality of the products they use.
Having said that, there are some fabulously-coiffed women (and men) of all ages round here....whether they save their euros up to go to Marbella or go local I can't say.


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## uffington15

I have fed four dogs on raw food and have only experienced benefits, true that some vets are opposed to this but that is their opinion. There is not a one size fits all in dog feeding but I have enjoyed watching my dogs settling down to eat a whole rabbit fur and all. It takes so much longer than a bowl of dried food. Must just say that I never gave mine large weight bearing bones as the dogs can chip their teeth on these. Another added benefit has been the condition of the teeth and also the improvement of what comes out of the other end.
We will see how things develop when we move over to Spain


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## Nignoy

raw diet is okay for certain dogs,but reasonable quality dry food is also a healthy alternative, for active dogs, chicken wings once a week for healthy teeth and gums, always stretch your raw meat or offal diet with grated vegetables such as carrot and swede, especially when the dogs are getting older, helps cut down the weight and flatulence, I used this diet with dogs in the boarding and rspca kennels under my supervision , my diet reccomendations were also accepted by nato and customs dog units,even some of the exotics such as fennecs, caracals and jackals thrived on dry foods in zoo,s where I happened to be headkeeper or curator


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> I'm all for animals (including humans) eating how nature intended them to!! IMO tinned and dried dog food wasnt around when dogs intestines were being made!!!!????
> 
> Jo xxx


In that case humans would be living on nuts and berries with the odd raw fish or rabbit ... no pizza, no ice-cream, no bacon butties ... 

Most species that have survived this long can adapt to any diet provided they get sufficient protein and vitamins. 

What I find unacceptable is people who try to feed cats and dogs a vegetarian diet. That is just loopy. If they want a vegetarian pet they should get a rabbit.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> There are a couple of hairstylists in our village, always busy, but the prices are so low I would be worried about the quality of the products they use.


I get my hair done by a local girl and she does a great job. I pay 18 euros for colour, cut and blow-dry. It is cheap because her salon is in her own house, and wages are very low here. She uses branded products, or you can take your own. 

Oops we seem to have strayed off the dog food topic! So I'd better add that she also has a Yorkshire terrier - or as she would call it, a "you're-shy".


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## mrypg9

uffington15 said:


> I have fed four dogs on raw food and have only experienced benefits, true that some vets are opposed to this but that is their opinion.


Not really....it's Billinghurst who has only his opinions to back him up. Those -and they are in the majority -against BARF have scientific evidence. Fact, check it out.
But it's horses for courses at the end of the day.
Like Alcalaina I don't think dogs should be subjected to their owners' whims and fads.


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## donz

Canine Health Concern have some good info if anyone is interested


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## mrypg9

donz said:


> Canine Health Concern have some good info if anyone is interested


 Beware of Canine Health Concern. It is another of these wierd 'holistic' anti-medicine setups run by someone, one Catherine O'Driscoll, with zero scientific knowledge and background, as she admits herself.
I would strongly advise thorough investigation of the background and credentials of people who promote these doctrines.


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## mrypg9

A sample of the stuff put out by Canine Health Concern:

*There are 38 Flower Remedies, developed by Dr Bach with the aim of raising our vibrations so that we can hear our Spiritual Selves and fulfil our life purposes… If the dog becomes fixated on something that happened – for example, he heard a loud bang outside and now refuses to go into the garden, then White Chestnut can help him get the distressing event out of his mind and carry on with life.*

My dog thinks that's b******s.
I think he may be right


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## donz

I am no 'believer' or pusher of thoughts onto others, but I have used Bach flower remedies, a homeopathic vet and raw diet all for different things at one time or another and all have helped

I don't like to pump my dogs full of artificial chemicals if I can help it and do prefer to find alternatives that WORK (rather than appear to work). As all things, you have to look for the things that are/could be true if enough evidence is presented and make your own mind up


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## mrypg9

The important thing is to have background knowledge of people and organisations - you have to know where people are coming from.
When I started researching diets for our dog when we got him as a pup I read a lot about different theories. I was actually quite disturbed by some of the stuff Canine Health Concern propagates - O'Driscoll is very anti-vaccination, for example, and the medical basis for her asssertions is non-existent.
We've seen what damage that kind of unfounded sceptism did to human babies recently.
This holistic New Age stuff is harmless up to a point but before taking some of its more extreme ideas seriously and practising them on your pets you need to do a lot of research and think carefully.
No-one had heard of Ms O'Driscoll until The Daily Mail decided to give her anti-vaccine views some publicity.
Says it all....

'.you have to look for the things that are/could be true if enough evidence is presented and make your own mind up' your quote.
Yes. But if the evidence isn't there??




*Rather than being based on research using the scientific method, Bach's flower remedies were intuitively derived and based on his perceived psychic connections to the plants. If Bach felt a negative emotion, he would hold his hand over different plants, and if one alleviated the emotion, he would ascribe the power to heal that emotional problem to that plant. He believed that early morning sunlight passing through dew-drops on flower petals transferred the healing power of the flower onto the water, so he would collect the dew drops from the plants and preserve the dew with an equal amount of brandy to produce a mother tincture which would be further diluted before use. Later, he found that the amount of dew he could collect was not sufficient, so he would suspend flowers in spring water and allow the sun's rays to pass through them.

Bach advertised his remedies in two daily newspapers, but since his practices did not follow any scientific protocol, and his methods and claims were unproven, the General Medical Council disapproved of his advertising.[/B*]


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## donz

obviously if there is no evidence it speaks for itself, but at some point you do have to look at theories, tried and tested and decide for yourself which route to take.

Vaccinating every year for everything in some parts of the UK for example is not required, titre test yearly shows which antibodies are present & which need boostering and this will also depend on the type of area you live in too. My current vet has just introduced a 3year booster which sounds to be so much better so I am now reviewing this rather than titre test (which is much more expensive anyway) and of course all my brood have to be sorted before we get to Spain too


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## Chris Ward

For the first 12 months of my golden retrievers life he had biscuits with fresh cooked chicken or turkey (I used to buy a large turkey cook it, bone it and chop it up, I love my dog) he himself stopped eating the meat and only then ate the dried dog food and does to this day. The vet told me that dog food manufactures spend millions getting the contents right so the dog gets all the food and nutrients they need. I do however give him extra fruit and veg particularly in the summer as he tends to get hot and sweat alot he also gets a raw fresh egg every week to keep his coat in good condition.
Personally I like dried dog food particularly in hot climates and if like mine the dog is not a greedy eater and likes to come back to his food. Fresh meat turns too quickly and gets slimy and attracts flies.

Chris


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## mrypg9

donz said:


> obviously if there is no evidence it speaks for itself, but at some point you do have to look at theories, tried and tested and decide for yourself which route to take.
> 
> Vaccinating every year for everything in some parts of the UK for example is not required, titre test yearly shows which antibodies are present & which need boostering and this will also depend on the type of area you live in too. My current vet has just introduced a 3year booster which sounds to be so much better so I am now reviewing this rather than titre test (which is much more expensive anyway) and of course all my brood have to be sorted before we get to Spain too



Well, there's not much evidence produced for these 'holistic' theories, is there?
As for the titre test, yes, it has uses, but some medical scientists would state that these tests cannot measure immunity as immunity to specific viruses is reliant on what are termed 'memory cells' rather than antibodies.
How you feed and care for the welfare of your pet seems to depend on your belief or otherwise in modern science-based medicine. Of course scientific research is only as good as the findings of the last experiment but most people would prefer to base their health care and nutrition for their families and pets on what has been triesd and tested rather than what are ultimately faith-based alternatives, some of which are unsafe as well as unsound and some of the proponents of which are decidedly odd, to say the least.
You must admit that Dr.Bach sounds a few shillings short, to say the least


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## zilly

I could not agree more-especially in this climate.In my opinion a good dried dog food is the best for my dogs.They do get some extras-but very few.I am sure they are getting all the nutrition-minerals etc they need and they thrive on it. Just the thought of wet food in this heat.............. Dog food tins are normally 80% water-so what's the point in that?
Any one thinking of alternative vaccination regimes in Spain anyway will be overuled by Spanish dog vaccination law--and here in Andalucia that is tight.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> You must admit that Dr.Bach sounds a few shillings short, to say the least


I totally agree - a complete weirdo, but...
I have tried his remedies a couple of times and, I don't know why, they worked. And before you all start on placebos, and auto suggestion, and mind over matter I'd like to say I had no conviction about Mr. Bachs remedies at all. In fact, I was very sceptical about the whole thing, especially as I had read a bit about the man himself.
I'm not advocating that anybody takes "alternative medicine", but don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Many people who pride themselves on being open minded have a block here, but think about it. After all I wouldn't tell you which bank to invest 'cos I know nothing about it and have no experience of it.


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## gus-lopez

All uk pet food is manufactured to food standards in excess of those required for food for human consumption. One MD of a major company used to eat all new products before they went on sale . His reasoning was that if he wouldn't eat it himself , he certainly wouldn't give it to his pets.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I totally agree - a complete weirdo, but...
> I have tried his remedies a couple of times and, I don't know why, they worked. And before you all start on placebos, and auto suggestion, and mind over matter I'd like to say I had no conviction about Mr. Bachs remedies at all. In fact, I was very sceptical about the whole thing, especially as I had read a bit about the man himself.
> I'm not advocating that anybody takes "alternative medicine", but don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Many people who pride themselves on being open minded have a block here, but think about it. After all I wouldn't tell you which bank to invest 'cos I know nothing about it and have no experience of it.


I started looking into all the doggy dietary theories when we got OLA as a pup and I was genuinely open-minded. But the holistic theories, when I investigated in depth, were easily disproved and some of their advocates seemed a trifle unhinged.
Remember the story I posted about the time I had dysentery in rural Poland and the old woman's herbs? Her remedy certainly worked and there's no doubt that many mainstream medicines contain 'natural ingredients, which people who decry mainstream medicine conveniently ignore.
The chief problem with alternative medicine is imo the people who advocate it. Far too many of them preach and have a superior, self-righteous approach. We had a PA who was into this kind of thing and she was insufferable.....had little tinkling bells and revolting smelling candles on her desk and put up garish posters with inane simplistic exhortations such as 'Choose Life' (who would willingly choose death????) and 'A child is a flower in bud.' (I remember remarking that it would have been better for humanity if Hitler and Stalin would have been nipped in the bud). I remember once when I was extremely p****d off about something and very tense she advised me to gaze in the mirror and say 'I love you, Mary'.........
My reply to this doubtless well-intended advice is unprintable on this forum.
I don't rule out the possibility that some 'natural' remedies work, or at least make you feel better. It's the frightening certainty of some proponents of holistic methods that alarms me.
I feel like that about most things though including political beliefs.
When I die I want my tombstone (if such things still exist then) to have the inscription ' I beseech ye, brethren,consider....ye may be wrong'.
That's what Oliver Cromwell said to the Scottish Bishops in 16-something and I think it's one of the most profound utterances ever made.....


And as for your banking analogy....you would most probably post links to relevant information and add your own experiences, as you have done most helpfully when people have sought advice on other topics.


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> I totally agree - a complete weirdo, but...
> I have tried his remedies a couple of times and, I don't know why, they worked. And before you all start on placebos, and auto suggestion, and mind over matter I'd like to say I had no conviction about Mr. Bachs remedies at all. In fact, I was very sceptical about the whole thing, especially as I had read a bit about the man himself.
> I'm not advocating that anybody takes "alternative medicine", but don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Many people who pride themselves on being open minded have a block here, but think about it. After all I wouldn't tell you which bank to invest 'cos I know nothing about it and have no experience of it.


Sorry Pesky - just wrong. The worst way to test any kind of medical intervention is to try it yourself. Proper medicines are tested at great expense for safety and efficacy - it is just not possible to do this for yourself.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it? Have you tried heroin?


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Sorry Pesky - just wrong. The worst way to test any kind of medical intervention is to try it yourself. Proper medicines are tested at great expense for safety and efficacy - it is just not possible to do this for yourself.
> 
> Don't knock it if you haven't tried it? Have you tried heroin?


 p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; } Point 1 Don't agree at all. We're not talking about drugs that have come on to the market with out going through the proper channels of testing and inspection - or at least I'm not! Of course you should take care, as with any drugs, and read and find out and follow the correct dosage etc. I'm not talking about playing around with strange substances or even well known herbs without knowing about their properties and consulting a professional.

True, finding a professional can be a problem, but if you are really interested and really want to find out about this area, you can. I admit that unfortunately there are a lot of “quacks” and weirdos, but there are true professionals too. And the number of “ordinary doctors” who incorporate some alternative medicine into their treatments are steadily increasing, not diminishing,

What I find disturbing is the amount of people, (the vast majority) who take over the counter medication, or even that prescribed by their doctor, without questioning it. IMO you should always think about what you're putting into your body and what the final outcome is going to be. For example, antibiotics can screw up your stomach and even make your body susceptible to what ever you were treating it for in the first place. Sometimes you just _*have to*_ take them, but other times you don't, but many people just don't think about it.

I just think it's a shame that people never consider other methods of treatment, make the pharmaceutical companies fatter and greedier than ever, and worse still put these methods down without having any first hand experience.


With the heroin, OK you got me there!!


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I started looking into all the doggy dietary theories when we got OLA as a pup and I was genuinely open-minded. But the holistic theories, when I investigated in depth, were easily disproved and some of their advocates seemed a trifle unhinged.
> Remember the story I posted about the time I had dysentery in rural Poland and the old woman's herbs? Her remedy certainly worked and there's no doubt that many mainstream medicines contain 'natural ingredients, which people who decry mainstream medicine conveniently ignore.
> The chief problem with alternative medicine is imo the people who advocate it. Far too many of them preach and have a superior, self-righteous approach. We had a PA who was into this kind of thing and she was insufferable.....had little tinkling bells and revolting smelling candles on her desk and put up garish posters with inane simplistic exhortations such as 'Choose Life' (who would willingly choose death????) and 'A child is a flower in bud.' (I remember remarking that it would have been better for humanity if Hitler and Stalin would have been nipped in the bud). I remember once when I was extremely p****d off about something and very tense she advised me to gaze in the mirror and say 'I love you, Mary'.........
> My reply to this doubtless well-intended advice is unprintable on this forum.
> I don't rule out the possibility that some 'natural' remedies work, or at least make you feel better. It's the frightening certainty of some proponents of holistic methods that alarms me.
> I feel like that about most things though including political beliefs.
> When I die I want my tombstone (if such things still exist then) to have the inscription ' I beseech ye, brethren,consider....ye may be wrong'.
> That's what Oliver Cromwell said to the Scottish Bishops in 16-something and I think it's one of the most profound utterances ever made.....
> 
> 
> And as for your banking analogy....you would most probably post links to relevant information and add your own experiences, as you have done most helpfully when people have sought advice on other topics.


Definitely, lots of the problems that surround alternative medicine are the people involved. I must admit however, I've never had anyone "preach" alternative methods to me...

Yes, I agree the inane posters and ideas can go. (Somebody once wanted me to sign a petition against AIDS???? How many people are in favour of it I asked)

But I also think that you could listen to what Cromwell is telling you '_* I beseech ye, brethren,consider....ye may be wrong'.*_


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Definitely, lots of the problems that surround alternative medicine are the people involved. I must admit however, I've never had anyone "preach" alternative methods to me...
> 
> Yes, I agree the inane posters and ideas can go. (Somebody once wanted me to sign a petition against AIDS???? How many people are in favour of it I asked)
> 
> But I also think that you could listen to what Cromwell is telling you '_* I beseech ye, brethren,consider....ye may be wrong'.*_



But I do I have read as much as I possibly can take in and *at this point in time* I have yet to find compelling arguments, apart from personal anecdotes, in favour of alternative medicines.
But.....I keep an open mind on this and nearly all other such issues and the moment I am convinced there is some truth in holistic remedies my views will change. I thought I'd made clear that I am in a constant state of doubt about most things... - sometimes I wish I wasn't..

Thgis is what I wrote in my last post:

_
I don't rule out the possibility that some 'natural' remedies work, or at least make you feel better. It's the frightening certainty of some proponents of holistic methods that alarms me.
I feel like that about most things though including political beliefs_.




Incidentally, if you don't get all the vaccines for your dog that most dogs get would you be able to obtain a Pet Passport?
I think not.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> But I do I have read as much as I possibly can take in and *at this point in time* I have yet to find compelling arguments, apart from personal anecdotes, in favour of alternative medicines.
> But.....I keep an open mind on this and nearly all other such issues and the moment I am convinced there is some truth in holistic remedies my views will change. I thought I'd made clear that I am in a constant state of doubt about most things... - sometimes I wish I wasn't.
> Incidentally, if you don't get all the vaccines for your dog that most dogs get would you be able to obtain a Pet Passport?
> I think not.


OK mrypg9, just remember some things just *are*. Just because we don't have The Explanation doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Dog passport without dog vaccines?? I wouldn't have thought so.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK mrypg9, just remember some things just *are*. Just because we don't have The Explanation doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> .


But we usually have some form of proof that they exist. The problem for me is deciding when proof is proof.....if you know what I mean.
I was a practising Catholic and had firm left of centre views for most of my adult life. I didn't just hold these views, I was active in propagating them. They _were _my life.
Slowly but inexorably -and for me very sadly -the foundations for these beliefs began to crumble under the crushing weight of experience.
In a way, I envy people who have faith even if I think some of the things they believe in are off the wall. 
I am a sour old cynic, I'm afraid


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## zilly

All new puppies or dogs in Andalucia now have to have a pet passport-the old vaccination record book is not adequate now. Into this goes all their vaccination records. Older dogs no problem with the record book.So no-vaccination must be correct and up to date according to where you live.I only know about Andalucia-I know it's different in other provinces. Can't see myself arguing the toss with custom officials or the Guardia Civil personally! The law is the law despite what anyone's predilictions are!


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## mrypg9

zilly said:


> All new puppies or dogs in Andalucia now have to have a pet passport-the old vaccination record book is not adequate now. Into this goes all their vaccination records. Older dogs no problem with the record book.So no-vaccination must be correct and up to date according to where you live.I only know about Andalucia-I know it's different in other provinces. Can't see myself arguing the toss with custom officials or the Guardia Civil personally! The law is the law despite what anyone's predilictions are!


That's right and it will be the case in all EU states.
We got our pup in Slovakia so he has a Slovakian passport and had to have all required vaccinations before we could take him home. Then his vaccinations had to be updated before we could travel through Europe with him.
And quite right too.
We vaccinate, chip and neuter all dogs brought into our refugio before adoption. 
Anyone adamantly against vaccination on some touchy-feely New Age grounds should see the number of abandoned dogs that die -needlessly- of parvo.
The increase in unnecessary childhood diseases after that unfounded MMR scare propagated by that doctor whose name I forget - I believe he was struck off by the GMC for unprofessional conduct -should be proof enough that in most cases vaccination is a force for good.


Have just googled....his name was Dr.Andrew Wakefield and he said he had research findings which proved a link between vaccination and autism. Investigations proved that he had falsified or distorted his 'evidence'. 
But the resulting scare led to a fall in vaccinations and a corresponding rise in cases of measles.


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## donz

I wasn't suggesting not vaccinating in Spain, I was simply stating that in the UK there are certain areas/regions where you don't NEED the full vaccination annually

As for wet food, Naturediet is a good wet food - it is not tinned and it is not 80% water however it is not cheap. I agree most tinned varieties are 80% water however. Dried is fine if you are happy with dried. I am happy with BARF and even in the warm climate it will be fine to feed if I can source enough else they will be on dried with the odd raw meal as I have the stock.


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## uffington15

raw food can be given frozen so the temperature is not such a problem


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## mrypg9

uffington15 said:


> raw food can be given frozen so the temperature is not such a problem


Only for your dog's teeth........


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## zilly

Think I'll give the frozen dead rabbit a skip in my house...........................................


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## mrypg9

zilly said:


> Think I'll give the frozen dead rabbit a skip in my house...........................................



Our Little Azor would complain to the RSPCA if he found that in his bowl....


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Our Little Azor would complain to the RSPCA if he found that in his bowl....



Having met your "little" Azor, yes I think he would too!!! LOL 

Jo xxx


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## Nignoy

Just a point in passing, for the last 25 years there has been extensive research going on into the damage done by over vaccination of domestic pets, it has been proved that after initial vaccinations are given, only 3 or even 5 year boosters are needed, the the enormous count of canine deaths through excessive vaccinations ,is only now being made public,I realise the replies will be it is the law to have an uptodate yearly vaccination if you want to travel with your dog or cat, but these laws are made on advice from vets, who rely on vaccinations for up to 42% of their income, here in australia as we speak , new 3 year vaccination laws have been tabled in parliament and are now in the final stages of discussion, let hope other countries follow suit,


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## donz

3 year vacs are now available from the vet here in the UK- literally fairly new so that will help


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## zilly

Personally I fail to see Spain following that lead at the moment--much as I would like it to! My dogs had their yearly vacs. this week and I was asking the vet about just this.He said he had heard nothing atall about any changes in the vaccination regimes--annual rabies etc. I agree that other things must be behind this-not necessarily the welfare of the dogs.


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## mrypg9

No, I don't think there will be changes in Spain or any other EU member state for that matter.
Which is unfortunate.....


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## mrypg9

Nignoy said:


> Just a point in passing, for the last 25 years there has been extensive research going on into the damage done by over vaccination of domestic pets, it has been proved that after initial vaccinations are given, only 3 or even 5 year boosters are needed, the the enormous count of canine deaths through excessive vaccinations ,is only now being made public,I realise the replies will be it is the law to have an uptodate yearly vaccination if you want to travel with your dog or cat, but these laws are made on advice from vets, who rely on vaccinations for up to 42% of their income, here in australia as we speak , new 3 year vaccination laws have been tabled in parliament and are now in the final stages of discussion, let hope other countries follow suit,


Sounds good.
Could you provide some links to the research?
I'd like to investigate this as I did with the dietary issues.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Sounds good.
> Could you provide some links to the research?
> I'd like to investigate this as I did with the dietary issues.


The last time I took our dog to have his vaccinations (Spain) I saw a different vet. He said that due to his age (15) he didn't need to have all the vaccinations every year 'cos he would have built up enough resistance by now.
Regarding the 3 year vaccination for dogs in the UK, isn't because it's a super strong one that lasts for longer? Like antibiotics for humans there are now some that are super strength that you only take for 3 days. So it's not that you're not vaccinating your dog, it's that your using a different strength vaccine?????


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## Pesky Wesky

Nignoy;363124 said:


> Yep. Money, pharmaceutical companies, doctors, vets. These are the issues that are behind many "medical" decisions, not whether we or animals need the vaccinations. Remember swine flu !??!


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yep. Money, pharmaceutical companies, doctors, vets. These are the issues that are behind many "medical" decisions, not whether we or animals need the vaccinations. Remember swine flu !??!


The big pharma companies wield far too much power. Read or view 'The Constant Gardener' if you haven't already.
But it can work both ways, as the MMR scandal recently proved.
All the more reason to read, research and consider before jumping on any bandwagon, although it's not always an easy task if like me your education has not been in the field of science.

Swine flu....yes, a wholly unnecessary scare.
But consider....what if it had been for real and no preparations had been made.....


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## dunmovin

mrypg9 said:


> The big pharma companies wield far too much power. Read or view 'The Constant Gardener' if you haven't already.
> But it can work both ways, as the MMR scandal recently proved.
> All the more reason to read, research and consider before jumping on any bandwagon, although it's not always an easy task if like me your education has not been in the field of science.
> 
> *Swine flu....yes, a wholly unnecessary scare.
> But consider....what if it had been for real and no preparations had been made.....*


I was living in Hong Kong at the time of the SARs epidemic. Since then there has been the swine flu and bird flu episodes, although the threat of a pandemic is real, media and drug companies elevate the scare to levels where they make money from it.

:focus: A few years ago,I read an article, written by a vet, who said that pet food companies will pay for a student vet's tuition, under contract that once qualified and have their own practice, would promote the pet food company's product.

Years ago, we had a cat which was fed on dried food, but when the manufacturer changed the recipe, the cat refused to eat it and would not even look at other food. I believe(rightly or wrongly) that there was something addictive in the orginal mix. That'swhy our pet only ever gets food that is for human consumption. even then, it doesn't come out of a can(except tuna)


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## jojo

The big pharmaceutical companies are money making industries and having worked within the industry I was horrified by their lack of concern for health and their greed! Its all about money!

Jo xxx


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## Nignoy

Thanks for the great responses, for over 30 years a core of EU vets have been campaigning for 5year anti rabies jabs for dogs and cats, and only once in a lifetime for human beings, interesting relevent facts about unneccessary jabs are kept secret from us by our vets,how many pet owners take their female dog or cat to the vet to get a jab to stop them being accidentally impregnated when they are in season, what the vet doest tell you is that the natural plant extract Chorophyll, is the best and oldest antibaby pill in the world as far as all dogs and cats are concerned, cost from your local healthfood shops, 1euro 20 cents for 100 tablets , 1 tablett once a week neutralises the pheromone out put ,and some say it neutralises the urine smell too,no profit in the vet telling you this, how do you think in zoos and parks we cut down on excess breeding naturally, and it is more economical than castrating all alpha males, it is a natural healthy alternative.Please dont get me wrong I am not some health nut, I had to study zoological veterinary medecine as part of my Masters, jl


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## MaidenScotland

Nignoy said:


> Thanks for the great responses, for over 30 years a core of EU vets have been campaigning for 5year anti rabies jabs for dogs and cats, and only once in a lifetime for human beings, interesting relevent facts about unneccessary jabs are kept secret from us by our vets,how many pet owners take their female dog or cat to the vet to get a jab to stop them being accidentally impregnated when they are in season, what the vet doest tell you is that the natural plant extract Chorophyll, is the best and oldest antibaby pill in the world as far as all dogs and cats are concerned, cost from your local healthfood shops, 1euro 20 cents for 100 tablets , 1 tablett once a week neutralises the pheromone out put ,and some say it neutralises the urine smell too,no profit in the vet telling you this, how do you think in zoos and parks we cut down on excess breeding naturally, and it is more economical than castrating all alpha males, it is a natural healthy alternative.Please dont get me wrong I am not some health nut, I had to study zoological veterinary medecine as part of my Masters, jl




John would that work on goats? I am guessing yes.


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## mrypg9

Nignoy said:


> Thanks for the great responses, for over 30 years a core of EU vets have been campaigning for 5year anti rabies jabs for dogs and cats, and only once in a lifetime for human beings, interesting relevent facts about unneccessary jabs are kept secret from us by our vets,how many pet owners take their female dog or cat to the vet to get a jab to stop them being accidentally impregnated when they are in season, what the vet doest tell you is that the natural plant extract Chorophyll, is the best and oldest antibaby pill in the world as far as all dogs and cats are concerned, cost from your local healthfood shops, 1euro 20 cents for 100 tablets , 1 tablett once a week neutralises the pheromone out put ,and some say it neutralises the urine smell too,no profit in the vet telling you this, how do you think in zoos and parks we cut down on excess breeding naturally, and it is more economical than castrating all alpha males, it is a natural healthy alternative.Please dont get me wrong I am not some health nut, I had to study zoological veterinary medecine as part of my Masters, jl


Can I ask you again for links to the research you mentioned earlier?
Also links for what you have just posted?
I'd like to see more evidence for this.
I think you are being unfair when you generalise about vets. The vast majority work for the welfare of animals. We have five vets who give their services to our dog refugio with no charge whatsoever. The vet who looks after my dog charges so little I wonder how she makes any profit. She treats all abandoned/rehomed dogs with no charge whatsoever.
So....links to what you have posted, please, so we can see what kind of back-up in terms of sound vetinary/medical research and evidence is out there.
You say you have a Masters in 'medecine' (medicine)....well, so have I - a further degree, not in medicine, I hasten to add - -but that doesn't make me an expert in my field. I have opinions in my subject area but that's all they are and if asked for evidence to back my assertions I'd provide it.
So...please give links so we can all read further and see what others in the field of canine welfare think.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Regarding the 3 year vaccination for dogs in the UK, isn't because it's a super strong one that lasts for longer? Like antibiotics for humans there are now some that are super strength that you only take for 3 days. So it's not that you're not vaccinating your dog, it's that your using a different strength vaccine?????


If that's the case -and it might well be -might not the superstrength nature of the vaccination be a cause for concern?


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> If that's the case -and it might well be -might not the superstrength nature of the vaccination be a cause for concern?


Well, I would *certainly *question it *IF* the new vaccine is a maxi dose.


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## zilly

I suspect that it's not a maxi-dose of vaccine but that antibodies were present 3 years post -vaccination.I could be wrong--but a maxi dose will not make the antibodies be present in the dog longer as far as I can see. I'm sure if this is going to be the vaccination protocol in the UK it is well tested and researched.
As for vets--I too know good and bad-as in any profession.Here in Spain my vet's bills are far less than in the UK-and in general I don't have any complaints. In emergencies I've had vets -both Spanish and English -out to the depths of the campo where I live and not charged me a call out fee and charged very reasonably. My uk vets bills were astronomical by comparison. I don't know now how much full dog vaccinations are in the UK-but I guess a lot more than in Spain.


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## mrypg9

zilly said:


> I suspect that it's not a maxi-dose of vaccine but that antibodies were present 3 years post -vaccination.I could be wrong--but a maxi dose will not make the antibodies be present in the dog longer as far as I can see. I'm sure if this is going to be the vaccination protocol in the UK it is well tested and researched.
> As for vets--I too know good and bad-as in any profession.Here in Spain my vet's bills are far less than in the UK-and in general I don't have any complaints. In emergencies I've had vets -both Spanish and English -out to the depths of the campo where I live and not charged me a call out fee and charged very reasonably. My uk vets bills were astronomical by comparison. I don't know now how much full dog vaccinations are in the UK-but I guess a lot more than in Spain.


Our vets' bills have been much less both in the CR and here in Spain than in the UK.
In Prague we used the vet that looks after former President Havel's dog. He was very good,but rather impersonal, I thought, and we paid around £25 equivalent for the chip and all the injections needed to travel here.
Our vet here, Lucia at the Diana Centre Benahavis is fabulous. As I said, she treats abandoned dogs free of charge, whatever they need. She spent a lot of time on Lucky, that poor dog we found and would have operated on her eye free of charge if she'd lived. She is so good with Our Little Azor, cuddles and hugs him and we have to practically force her to take even the small amount she charges.
That's why I don't like generalised attacks on vets. Some are grasping and mercenary, yes....but the vast majority care about what they do.
I'd really like to read up more on this maxi vaccine so I'm waiting with interest for the links to the research nignoy posted about.


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## Nignoy

mrypg9 said:


> Can I ask you again for links to the research you mentioned earlier?
> Also links for what you have just posted?
> I'd like to see more evidence for this.
> I think you are being unfair when you generalise about vets. The vast majority work for the welfare of animals. We have five vets who give their services to our dog refugio with no charge whatsoever. The vet who looks after my dog charges so little I wonder how she makes any profit. She treats all abandoned/rehomed dogs with no charge whatsoever.
> So....links to what you have posted, please, so we can see what kind of back-up in terms of sound vetinary/medical research and evidence is out there.
> You say you have a Masters in 'medecine' (medicine)....well, so have I - a further degree, not in medicine, I hasten to add - -but that doesn't make me an expert in my field. I have opinions in my subject area but that's all they are and if asked for evidence to back my assertions I'd provide it.
> So...please give links so we can all read further and see what others in the field of canine welfare think.


I will endevour to supply you with relevant links concerning the subjects I have mentioned, as far as being an expert in my field well personally I think 45 years practise in animal husbandry and care whether in the military or in zoo,s and parks in different parts of the world, correct me if I am wrong but surely if foreign govts approach me and ask me to write manuals of wildlifecare for them, or to compile worldwide stud records for example siberian tigers which I worked on for 7 years in the 70,s along with the curators of dresden and leipzig zoo,s. On second thoughts why should I bother with links Just go out and buy volume 1 and 2 0f my teaching manuals ...................there are some very good later translations available in most reputable european book shops, both are considered compulsory reading for apprentice zookeepers and wildlife carers, also keep your eyes peeled for my latest"............" which will be my first english publication


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## Chris Ward

Nignoy said:


> I will endevour to supply you with relevant links concerning the subjects I have mentioned, as far as being an expert in my field well personally I think 45 years practise in animal husbandry and care whether in the military or in zoo,s and parks in different parts of the world, correct me if I am wrong but surely if foreign govts approach me and ask me to write manuals of wildlifecare for them, or to compile worldwide stud records for example siberian tigers which I worked on for 7 years in the 70,s along with the curators of dresden and leipzig zoo,s. On second thoughts why should I bother with links Just go out and buy volume 1 and 2 0f my teaching manuals ..............."there are some very good later translations available in most reputable european book shops, both are considered compulsory reading for apprentice zookeepers and wildlife carers, also keep your eyes peeled for my latest.............. which will be my first english publication


I think this is getting a little out of hand and away from the original post about feeding dogs raw meat. Your experience and knowledge sounds wonderful and informative however is really promoting your manuals for apprentice zookeepers going to provide a sensible answer to the original question? Please do not feed me to the lions:focus: 
Chris


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## mrypg9

Nignoy said:


> I will endevour to supply you with relevant links concerning the subjects I have mentioned, as far as being an expert in my field well personally I think 45 years practise in animal husbandry and care whether in the military or in zoo,s and parks in different parts of the world, correct me if I am wrong but surely if foreign govts approach me and ask me to write manuals of wildlifecare for them, or to compile worldwide stud records for example siberian tigers which I worked on for 7 years in the 70,s along with the curators of dresden and leipzig zoo,s. On second thoughts why should I bother with links Just go out and buy volume 1 and 2 0f my teaching manuals ..............."there are some very good later translations available in most reputable european book shops, both are considered compulsory reading for apprentice zookeepers and wildlife carers, also keep your eyes peeled for my latest"..............which will be my first english publication


Ich kann Ihre Buecher auf deutsch lesen.
Mein Hund ist aber kein Wildtier.....



_I can read your book in German. My dog isn't a wild animal though!_


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## Chris Ward

mrypg9 said:


> Ich kann Ihre Buecher auf deutsch lesen.
> Mein Hund ist aber kein Wildtier.....


Aaaaaaaaaah just knew you were going to feed me to the lions


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## mrypg9

Chris Ward said:


> I think this is getting a little out of hand and away from the original post about feeding dogs raw meat. Your experience and knowledge sounds wonderful and informative however is really promoting your manuals for apprentice zookeepers going to provide a sensible answer to the original question? Please do not feed me to the lions:focus:
> Chris


Quite. I have a Rhodesian Ridgeback, not a Bengal Tiger.
I like to know as much as I can about developments in canine welfare. One of the earlier posters provided a link which was very interesting. I didn't agree with it but I had to read it before I made up my mind.
There is so much media hype and exaggeration about various aspects of human and other animal development that it's not easy for a lay person to keep up.
On balance, I would not like to feed my dog on the raw meat diet but then he has had 'home-cooked' food for most of his life and thrives on it.
I can't believe some of this 'holistic' stuff, whether for humans or other animals, as some of it frankly sounds rather loopy and has no scientific validity.


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## mrypg9

Chris Ward said:


> Aaaaaaaaaah just knew you were going to feed me to the lions


Mod has just asked me to supply a translation..it wasn't obscene 
I just want to know more about the work done by the EU vets the poster writes about. After all, we live in the EU so it could well be of interest to all of us who have pets.
I've looked on the net to find out more about substituting chlorophyll for contraception (!) and can find nothing which suggests this is effective for females. It seems more of a remedy for canine bad breath and other offensive odours.
And as for males....I think it would take more than a dose of chlorophyll to stop my well-endowed Ridgeback from leaping on a perra in season
Only last week I had to practically anchor myself to a tree with the lead wrapped round me to stop him haring off.
We didn't have him chopped when he was younger as he comes from a distinguished line of champion showdogs (although we don't show him) and once had vague ideas of studding him with a suitable female.
We decided against that but it's really too late to do it now - he's 54 kilos of muscle and the vet thinks the amount of anaesthetic needed would be huge.
You really need evidence for these assertions about chlorophyll before taking them as gospel.
They may have validity....or may not.


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## Nignoy

Just thought the feeding regimes I mentioned earlier can easily be read in the books at a reference library or even on line, as far as dogs and cats are concerned in these feeding regimes, I successfully designed, built and staffed animal sanctuaries for waifs and strays for(Tierheime andTierschutzvereins)in 4 different towns in germany , so there were no problems there either, apart from so called commitee members trying to manage sanctuaries with their hearts instead of their commonsense, love of animals is great, but at sometime or other common sense must lead the way, as far as being fed to the lions is concerned the last lion I a ctually dealt with was a male black maned abyssinian lion who had lost all teeth through a gum disease, and over 12 months we fitted with a set of screw in teeth, by the way please excuse any errors or spelling mistakes , being disabled I use a dragon speak program and sometimes it has a mind of its own!!


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## mrypg9

Nignoy said:


> Just thought the feeding regimes I mentioned earlier can easily be read in the books at a reference library or even on line, as far as dogs and cats are concerned in these feeding regimes, I successfully designed, built and staffed animal sanctuaries for waifs and strays for(Tierheime andTierschutzvereins)in 4 different towns in germany , so there were no problems there either, apart from so called commitee members trying to manage sanctuaries with their hearts instead of their commonsense, love of animals is great, but at sometime or other common sense must lead the way, as far as being fed to the lions is concerned the last lion I a ctually dealt with was a male black maned abyssinian lion who had lost all teeth through a gum disease, and over 12 months we fitted with a set of screw in teeth, by the way please excuse any errors or spelling mistakes , being disabled I use a dragon speak program and sometimes it has a mind of its own!!


No, it's not the feeding regime I'm interested in, it's what you posted about EU vets and vaccination. Also about the 'contraceptive' properties of chlorophyll, for which I can find no evidence. I will discuss this with the German vet who will be at the refugio today.
As for the supposed defects of Committee members....I think you are again straying into the realms of generalisation. Our Committee members are extremely sensible, most of them businesspeople.
I would be interested to learn more about your experiences in Germany, via pm would be best. I am interested to learn more about animal shelters elsewhere in Europe as we are raising funds to build a new complex of our own.
You didn't mention dog feeding regimes specifically but again if you provide names and authors I'm sure we'd be interested.


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## Nignoy

how can I pm you thank you


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## mrypg9

Nignoy said:


> how can I pm you thank you


Click on my user name and all will be revealed...


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