# newbie starting retirement planning



## futureexpat23

Hello, new to the forum and just starting our research so I have a few questions to get started.

A certain website has conventions/seminars, to tell you where the perfect place for you is - I recognize the sales pitch in that, but does a 3 bedroom, 2 bath (rental) house on (or across the street from) the beach, all expenses for $25,000/year for 2 people even exist? And if so, are there many or just a few?

At this point we are starting with an open mind to where we would move to - Mexico, Belize, Panama, Costa Rica, maybe Ecuador, a place that fits us the best, but every time I think I find a place to look in to, I find conflicting info. (ex: Progreso doesn't have to worry about hurricanes, then someone else says it is in the red zone). :confused2:

Not looking for you to do my homework for me, but would like to know what we can realistically expect for $20,000 - $25,000/year, as close to the beach as possible, with quality healthcare close. We are fine with public transportation (walking/biking is even better), so we don't plan to have a car.

Hopefully your answers will lead me in the right direction, and thank you SO much for your help.


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## RVGRINGO

Two questions first:
Are you ready to live in extreme heat and humidity near a beach?
Have you determined that you can qualify for Mexican residence visas?
As to your question:
Yes, you are sure to find what you seek, but I would suggest you look inland, at more temperate climates and save the beach for winter jaunts. Vacationing in such places is one thing; living there all year is quite another.
Welcome to the forum. If you use the search feature, and do a lot of reading, you will find it very, very helpful.


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## futureexpat23

Well that was my next question, is there a beach area that isn't extreme 

No, we haven't determined that yet, we are probably 8 years away (and realize things will change by then), I guess we should do that to know if we can even consider it.

OK, as long as retiring in a nice place for that amount of $ is possible I can continue in my research.

I guess that should be the direction we go, inland with beach vacations.

I only know 1 couple who have retired out of the US, they are in Cuenca and it sounds perfect, except for the beach being so far away (and we didn't want to go that far south if we don't need to, to find a place like that)

I will definitely use the search feature, and I can already tell you are a wealth of information in what I have read so far. Thank you for your help, I'm sure we'll be talking frequently.


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## chicois8

Not all beaches in Mexico are hot and humid in the summer time... You might consider areas like Ensenada,San Quintin and Todos Santos on the Baja Peninsula where the Pacific Ocean is natures air conditioner.....
I was visiting a friend on the Pacific coast last year and left at 11AM and it was 75 degrees and when I got to Loreto on the gulf side at 3 PM it was 102degrees....
If I were a person beginning to look into the move I would start at this website and then buy his book..
My Life in Mexico
welcome to the site and suerte........


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## futureexpat23

Thank you! I will take a look at those too - we've been to Ensenada on cruises, but not the others. Obviously that's not much time to know anything about Ensenada, but next time we'll have a different reason to check it out.

I took a quick look at that site, looks like it has a lot of useful information, will definitely spend some more time on it and head to the book sale to look for the book.


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## AlanMexicali

futureexpat23 said:


> Thank you! I will take a look at those too - we've been to Ensenada on cruises, but not the others. Obviously that's not much time to know anything about Ensenada, but next time we'll have a different reason to check it out.
> 
> I took a quick look at that site, looks like it has a lot of useful information, will definitely spend some more time on it and head to the book sale to look for the book.


I personally would be bored with Ensenada in a couple of months and be spending most of my time in Tijuana and San Diego [65 miles north]. I am a big city type.


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## coondawg

Lots can change in 8 years. But, that gives you time to make a list, narrow it down, and hopefully spend at least a week in those areas on vacation. Then when you pick one and are ready to move there, rent for at least 6 months to a year, to be sure that is your dream place. Impulse buying has cost some people their life savings. Good luck.


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## Longford

The seminars focusing on moving to Mexico I most often see mentioned are ones I'd personally stay away from, because they've been known to be real estate sales pitches disguised as otherwise informational meetings. There have been books written about retiring in Mexico and there's a newly published one which presents interviews with expats living in the Lake Chapala communities. I've found _The People's Guide to Mexico _ to be an excellent resource, also. Read as much information as you can, from all sources. Rent instead of buying something, at least for a year or two. Visit multiple possible destinations and do so during the different seasons. If you don't already speak Spanish, start lessons now. Best of luck.


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## lagoloo

There are many books about moving to Mexico and Expat living. First, look for the date of publication. One book I checked out said that you needed to bring anything with a plug when you moved here. That had been published in the previous decade. Then, we found out that the country is well supplied with places like Home Depot, Costco, Sams, and a large variety of independent appliance stores. Furthermore, electrical appliances work better if they are designed for the way Mexican electricity works.
You get the picture? Things change fast here.
I agree with those who suggest you RENT rather than buying in the first year, and be very wary of seminars run by real estate agencies and their brethren. Rent is low here; the cost of home ownership is high when you consider that homes are not built to rigid codes and sometimes a lovely casa has no foundation other than the sweet Mexican dirt under it. Inspection? Generally a bad joke. Furthermore, no pages of disclosure required. You are on your own; it's buyer be very wary all the way. Taxes are low; it's maintenance that will hit your wallet. Sales of property are very slow at this point.
Good luck!


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## futureexpat23

Thanks everyone! Lots of good ideas/info here.

We hope to be able to visit several places on vacation the next several years and then if it works out, retire and spend 3-4 months in 3 or 4 places, hopefully timing the seasons to get some of the best and worst and then know where we want to live.

So what do most people do, sell their house and just go for it (once they find the right place), hold on to it in case they find out this isn't for them, or at least keep their belongings in storage? I don't want to go in to it thinking it's not going to work, but want to be realistic, and we think once we move it will be with very little, couple week's worth of clothes and a few other items.

Don't want a big city to live in but one close by would be preferred.

My Spanish is rusty (about non-existent), so will get some lessons in - the library has a free on-line program but I may need something a little more structured and someone available to help me, so will probably take a class.

Will put that guide on my list to look for. I had a similar experience, my mom gave me a book that she found, but I think it was published in 1980, noticed right away it was dated. 

That's the impression I was getting, all these "helpful" seminars are just a sales pitch.

I'm actually a little "scared" to buy, getting ripped off and thinking of our heirs dealing with that. But after a year or 2 I hope to feel comfortable if that's what we decide to do, but think we can just rent and never buy too. Do most people live out their lives there or go back to family, especially if they end up needing assisted living etc?

I know we'll have to adjust our thinking as we learn how it really is, we so appreciate all your help, and hope to be able to do the same for others one day.


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## RVGRINGO

Hey guys! We bought within a few weeks of moving to Meixo, way back when, and have had our present home for ten years. All that time has caused us to get very old and our beloved home is now for sale. So, please quit telling newbies to rent, when we can offer them fine living in an experienced home.


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## lagoloo

RVGRINGO said:


> Hey guys! We bought within a few weeks of moving to Meixo, way back when, and have had our present home for ten years. All that time has caused us to get very old and our beloved home is now for sale. So, please quit telling newbies to rent, when we can offer them fine living in an experienced home.


Bless you RV, for your flexibility of advertising venues and good luck on selling your experienced casa! How's the roof holding up these days?


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## RVGRINGO

One drip, and we found it and sealed it. It sure has been raining hard and the lake is rising nicely. I hope it keeps up.
Oops! The sun just started shining, so the solar hot water heater will pick up some more heat. We love that thing, and it has cut our propane usage down to less than half, paying for itself a long time ago.


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## futureexpat23

Too bad we're just in the beginning stages - we are thinking of your area now that we don't think we'll find a beach without extreme miserableness 

By the way, how far is the closest beach?

Thx!


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## RVGRINGO

We live in Chapala, Jalisco, and the Pacific Coast towns are within three to five hours by car, depending on where you want to go, between Manzanillo and Puerto Vallarta, for example. One can use high speed toll roads, or more scenic free roads. More importantly, you can choose your season to visit the beach when the weather is not unbearably hot or humid. Even in mid-winter, it will be quite warm.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Hey guys! We bought within a few weeks of moving to Meixo, way back when, and have had our present home for ten years. All that time has caused us to get very old and our beloved home is now for sale. So, please quit telling newbies to rent, when we can offer them fine living in an experienced home.


I had the pleasure of staying in RV's guest room while on vacation last year in Chapala. His home is lovely, with a beautiful garden, and is a few minutes walk from the shores of the lake. Anyone considering a move to that part of Mexico should contact him and make an appointment to check out his house.


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## futureexpat23

Chapala is our #1 location to check out right now, unfortunately we can't get there until 2015, and while it would be great for us, I certainly hope you have sold your house by then.....

3-5 hours isn't too bad, just no day trips.

Thank you


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## coondawg

RV, how far do you live from the Legion Americana?


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## lagoloo

The closest beach to the midpoint of the Lake Chapala area is three hours on the toll road if you drive like a madman, four or a little more if you aren't eager to have a cross with plastic flowers erected in your honor on the roadside spot where your soul left your body.
That beach is the port town of Manzanillo, with accommodations ranging from el cheapo 1950's style motel at around 60 US bucks, to pure luxury with washcloths shaped like swans for a couple hundred US a night .

Busy town with many restaurants; some quite good.
The toll road is newish and a pleasure to drive. Open country; lots of beautiful scenery. Think California before the hordes.


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## coondawg

Is Barra/Melaque any closer?


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## lagoloo

coondawg said:


> Is Barra/Melaque any closer?


Keep heading north. 
"closest" is Manzanillo.


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## futureexpat23

How big is Lake Chapala - say if you were to drive around it how long would it take? It looks huge in the pics I've seen.


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## lagoloo

futureexpat23 said:


> How big is Lake Chapala - say if you were to drive around it how long would it take? It looks huge in the pics I've seen.


It is huge: I hear it's 55 miles long; around 15 wide.
It would take many hours to drive around it and I'm not sure all the roads are okay for basic sedans.

There are two islands: one is Scorpion Island and regular tour boats go there. Tourist stuff available including scorpion decor and jewelry. People are still living there.
Mezcala Island is uninhabited at present and has a fascinating history; ruins to see. Small boats are available to take tourists there and tell the story. Great day outing.


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## futureexpat23

Wow, that's even bigger than I thought! Will definitely have to do more research about living there, next best thing to the ocean I guess, still would like to make that work, but don't want to be miserable. Thanks!


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## Isla Verde

futureexpat23 said:


> Wow, that's even bigger than I thought! Will definitely have to do more research about living there, next best thing to the ocean I guess, still would like to make that work, but don't want to be miserable. Thanks!


Of course, you realize that no one swims in Lake Chapala, right?


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## RVGRINGO

coondawg said:


> RV, how far do you live from the Legion Americana?


Just a block and a half. We like to have breakfast there fairly often, or Sunday hamburger time, etc.


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## coondawg

RVGRINGO said:


> Just a block and a half. We like to have breakfast there fairly often, or Sunday hamburger time, etc.


Ditto those. We lived 8 years next door to Tom (Chapala Consignment Shoppe), before moving here to finish our house. We miss lots of things/people, but was time to move on.


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, you realize that no one swims in Lake Chapala, right?


IV, I've see lots of Mexicans "swim" in the lake, but never seen an ex-pat. Ex-pats seem to go to the nice, thermal Spa in San Juan Cosala, or private pools.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> IV, I've see lots of Mexicans "swim" in the lake, but never seen an ex-pat. Ex-pats seem to go to the nice, thermal Spa in San Juan Cosala, or private pools.


Lots of Mexicans? Is it advisable to do so?


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> Lots of Mexicans? Is it advisable to do so?


Advisable? Yes, and no.  
My advise is "no", if you have seen the large sewer lines empty into the lake like I have. Yuk! 

The advise of a "water consultant" from NOB says "no problem", as he has monitored the lake for years.
(If he says no, then maybe a lot less tourists come to Chapala, maybe they get another consultant...I am an eternal optimist, no?  ).

We used the SPA in SJC. , or a private pool, if invited.


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## chicois8

Time was when one could eat the fish from the lake, I would not..........


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## futureexpat23

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, you realize that no one swims in Lake Chapala, right?


It didn't look like you would want to in the pics I saw, except 1, it looked very blue and inviting. How far are these spas?


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## citlali

How far from where? The spas are on the lake in San Juan Cosalá between Jocotepec and Ajijic.


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## coondawg

futureexpat23 said:


> It didn't look like you would want to in the pics I saw, except 1, it looked very blue and inviting. How far are these spas?


Look at a map of the towns on Lake Chapala and you will get a better feel for the closeness of things.


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## RVGRINGO

Note: 
There is a huge pipe that empties just off Waikiki Beach, as in most other towns in the USA, into lakes, rivers and the oceans.
Lake Chapala is actually less polluted than most popular California beaches, but it does have silt, making it look cloudy near shore.
There are fish farming sites on Lake Chapala; commercial fish are also caught & sold.
People urinate in pools and their backsides are getting cleaned in that water too. Enjoy!
The more fastidious you are, the more often you will be sick.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Note:
> There is a huge pipe that empties just off Waikiki Beach, as in most other towns in the USA, into lakes, rivers and the oceans.
> Lake Chapala is actually less polluted than most popular California beaches, but it does have silt, making it look cloudy near shore.
> There are fish farming sites on Lake Chapala; commercial fish are also caught & sold.
> People urinate in pools and their backsides are getting cleaned in that water too. Enjoy!
> The more fastidious you are, the more often you will be sick.


So, RV, when was the last time you went for a swim in lovely Lake Chapala?


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## RVGRINGO

I don‘t swim; I prefer to stay aboard the boat. When we sailed about the world for a few years, friends from home always asked what we would do if the boat sank, or if we wore life jackets, etc., etc.
The simple answer, when you are thousands of miles from anywhere is, Why?


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## chicois8

Isla Verde said:


> So, RV, when was the last time you went for a swim in lovely Lake Chapala?


Hola Isla, I know SEMARNAT tests beaches for pollution but do any government agencies check pollution in Mexico's lakes?


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## Isla Verde

chicois8 said:


> Hola Isla, I know SEMARNAT tests beaches for pollution but do any government agencies check pollution in Mexico's lakes?


I have no idea.


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## chicois8

coondawg said:


> For an interesting discussion on Lake Chapala pollution, try:
> /SNIP/


Yes,interesting read, funny seeing that grumpy old dude RVGRINGO,LOL
I wonder how many samples were taken at the mouth of the Lerma or the start of the Santiago...


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## Detailman

RVGringo, 

I have reverted to being a lurker as I currently have no plans to permanently move to Mexico although I will be back to visit early in 2015. 

I just had to comment on your recent many fine comments. I loved the one on your ocean going ventures and your answer to life vests. Both humorous and worldly wise. For years you have been a solid foundation to this forum. 

This does not negate the contributions of many other regular contributors. I follow your posts too and enjoy your expertise and your hum our as well. That goes for you also, Tundra Green & Isla Verde!!

This is one exceptional forum and I hope that all newcomers appreciate that. A review of past posts is advisable and will confirm the wealth of information provided 

I see that some newcomers get their noses bent out of shape because of some of the replies but I would suggest that all of them read past posts to get a broader view of the knowledge of the regular posters and and their style of sometimes humorous replies - never meaning to denigrate the original posters.

Keep up the good work. It is invaluable to future expats as long as THEY can keep their sense of humour. If they can't perhaps they should reappraise their plans. Regards to all!!

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## chicois8

Detailman, you can say that again,oh you did,LOL


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## lagoloo

Don't even think about living in Mexico unless you have a well developed sense of humor. You will need it!


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## Detailman

chicois8 said:


> Detailman, you can say that again,oh you did,LOL


Sorry about that. I was trying to edit a few mistakes that crept in through iPhone "corrections" but I find that I don't know how to edit while using the iPhone. Instead of editing it simply repeated my message - without the corrections.

I will now crawl back under my rock!

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## futureexpat23

citlali said:


> How far from where? The spas are on the lake in San Juan Cosalá between Jocotepec and Ajijic.



Sorry, I should have been more specific. 



coondawg said:


> Look at a map of the towns on Lake Chapala and you will get a better feel for the closeness of things.


Thanks, I will take a look at some maps.


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## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> Sorry about that. I was trying to edit a few mistakes that crept in through iPhone "corrections" but I find that I don't know how to edit while using the iPhone. Instead of editing it simply repeated my message - without the corrections.
> 
> I will now crawl back under my rock!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


I don't have an iPhone, but if I ever get one, I hope it will have a way to turn off the "corrections" function, whatever it's called. 

Don't stay under your rock too long. Your contributions will always be welcome here even though you're not planning to move to Mexico any time in the near future.


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## RVGRINGO

On a few occasions, I have seen Dr. Stong drink water from the center of Lake Chapala, only treating it with two drops of chlorine/litre for 30 minutes. He has done this for years and the only noticeable effect is that he is getting older.
Grump, grump, grump......


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## coondawg

RVGRINGO said:


> On a few occasions, I have seen Dr. Stong drink water from the center of Lake Chapala, only treating it with two drops of chlorine/litre for 30 minutes. He has done this for years and the only noticeable effect is that he is getting older.
> Grump, grump, grump......


Do you think that doubling the number of drops would slow down the aging process a little more?


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## citlali

It may even stop it altogether!


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> It may even stop it altogether!


But can it reverse it?


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## lagoloo

TundraGreen said:


> But can it reverse it?


So Lake Chapala is the new "Fountain of Youth"?
How come the expat residents don't look it? Or maybe they are actually into their second or third century.............


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## chicois8

I wonder if 2 drops of Microdyn would work.......


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## RVGRINGO

chicois8 said:


> I wonder if 2 drops of Microdyn would work.......


It only requires one drop of Microdyne per litre. Wait 30 minutes and drink up.
In either case, we let it wait in the refrigerator. Padre Kino wine carafes are handy for that purpose, but one has to empty them first.


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## Corri

futureexpat23 said:


> Hello, new to the forum and just starting our research so I have a few questions to get started.
> 
> A certain website has conventions/seminars, to tell you where the perfect place for you is - I recognize the sales pitch in that, but does a 3 bedroom, 2 bath (rental) house on (or across the street from) the beach, all expenses for $25,000/year for 2 people even exist? And if so, are there many or just a few?
> 
> At this point we are starting with an open mind to where we would move to - Mexico, Belize, Panama, Costa Rica, maybe Ecuador, a place that fits us the best, but every time I think I find a place to look in to, I find conflicting info. (ex: Progreso doesn't have to worry about hurricanes, then someone else says it is in the red zone). :confused2:
> 
> Not looking for you to do my homework for me, but would like to know what we can realistically expect for $20,000 - $25,000/year, as close to the beach as possible, with quality healthcare close. We are fine with public transportation (walking/biking is even better), so we don't plan to have a car.
> 
> Hopefully your answers will lead me in the right direction, and thank you SO much for your help.


You are describing a city between Guadalajara (large city) and Manzanillo (beach city) that has everything you are looking for, but not on the coast. The city is Colima, State of Colima. Beauty, services, friendly environment and where expats are discovering as an alternative to Lake Chapala (Ajijic), Guada. and even PV.
No harm in checking it out. You may be very pleased.


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## futureexpat23

I think I've noticed that on one of the maps I've looked at, thanks! I will take a look at it.


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## Isla Verde

Corri said:


> You are describing a city between Guadalajara (large city) and Manzanillo (beach city) that has everything you are looking for, but not on the coast. The city is Colima, State of Colima. Beauty, services, friendly environment and where expats are discovering as an alternative to Lake Chapala (Ajijic), Guada. and even PV.
> No harm in checking it out. You may be very pleased.


Do you live in Colima? What's the weather like there?


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Do you live in Colima? What's the weather like there?


Colima is pretty humid. Ciudad Guzman, a few kilometers to the north, is higher and cooler, but a longer trip to the beach.


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## Corri

Isla Verde said:


> Do you live in Colima? What's the weather like there?


No I don´t live there but I have spent time there as well as many cities in Mexico.
I understand the question as you are probably referring to the heat. 

The climate in Colima is quite varied. In some areas it is warmer than others. Like where the new shopping center ¨Z¨ is located and where a lot of the new expensive housing is being built there are no trees to speak of. But when you get down to the central area around the hotel ¨C¨ and the parks it is quite nice and livable with breezes even in the summer months. Then there is north toward the volcano where it actually gets very cold. So, in my opinion, the heat is not a problem as it is at certain months of the year in certain coastal areas. But, even the coastal areas vary in the type of heat and livability depending a lot on the humidity. Well, I hope this answers your questions.


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## Isla Verde

Corri said:


> No I don´t live there but I have spent time there as well as many cities in Mexico.
> I understand the question as you are probably referring to the heat.


Yes, I was. Climate is very important to me, which is one reason why I'm happy living in Mexico City.


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## chicois8

Corri writes " Then there is north toward the volcano where it actually gets very cold."

Maybe it should read" Then there is north toward the ( active )volcano where it actually gets very cold."


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## lagoloo

chicois8 said:


> Corri writes " Then there is north toward the volcano where it actually gets very cold."
> 
> Maybe it should read" Then there is north toward the ( active )volcano where it actually gets very cold."


And if you keep walking up and over the edge, it gets very hot. Whenever I drive past that area and glance at the white puffy stuff coming out of the top of that volcano, my mind thinks: Colima: Pompeii, WOW. 'Course, if Yellowstone blew, we'd likely all be crispy.:fingerscrossed:


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## chicois8

lagoloo said:


> And if you keep walking up and over the edge, it gets very hot. Whenever I drive past that area and glance at the white puffy stuff coming out of the top of that volcano, my mind thinks: Colima: Pompeii, WOW. 'Course, if Yellowstone blew, we'd likely all be crispy.:fingerscrossed:



I live in earthquake country but i would not move near an active volcano, down stream of a dam, any where a tornado visits yearly or under high tension electric lines.....buzzzzzzzzz


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## futureexpat23

So the volcano would be a reason NOT to move to Colima or it's not actually that close to worry? I looked on-line and read it's mostly not in Colima but I know that doesn't' mean it's not a danger. Thx!


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## coondawg

Is that volcano more active than the one in Puebla?


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## lancekoz

Yeah, I would say the beach is quite hot and humid... though I have not been to the Baja peninsula.... it may be different. 
I don't know about all the regions of the country, but I don't find it very cheap to live here (in Guadalajara). If you want good food and a reasonable living space with modern appliances, it seems to cost as much as many places in the US (except large cities), which is odd because salaries are so low. The main bonus here in GDL is the climate (a mile high). We need little heating or cooling throughout the year... though that is made up for in that electricity is real expensive. Crime is not a big concern. 
I am not sure what your main reason is in coming to Mexico. If you want it cheap, I would recommend small to medium towns, (I hear there are some nice ones between here and Puerto Vallarta), but you may find living in such a place difficult for modern US sensibilites. Without _fluent _ Spanish, you would have a very difficult time. Housing is usually badly made, the landscape is pretty at a distance but is often polluted or mistreated. Food is limited in scope, but healthy and cheap enough if you like the native stuff. Roads and getting around is difficult. Banks and government services are sadistically bad, credit is expensive. 
I live here because I'm married to to Mexican who has family here. If not for that, I would vastly prefer small town US. After almost 9 years here, I still find it 'challenging'.


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## Hound Dog

_


lancekoz said:



Yeah, I would say the beach is quite hot and humid... though I have not been to the Baja peninsula.... it may be different. 
I don't know about all the regions of the country, but I don't find it very cheap to live here (in Guadalajara). If you want good food and a reasonable living space with modern appliances, it seems to cost as much as many places in the US (except large cities), which is odd because salaries are so low. The main bonus here in GDL is the climate (a mile high). We need little heating or cooling throughout the year... though that is made up for in that electricity is real expensive. Crime is not a big concern. 
I am not sure what your main reason is in coming to Mexico. If you want it cheap, I would recommend small to medium towns, (I hear there are some nice ones between here and Puerto Vallarta), but you may find living in such a place difficult for modern US sensibilites. Without fluent  Spanish, you would have a very difficult time. Housing is usually badly made, the landscape is pretty at a distance but is often polluted or mistreated. Food is limited in scope, but healthy and cheap enough if you like the native stuff. Roads and getting around is difficult. Banks and government services are sadistically bad, credit is expensive. 
I live here because I'm married to to Mexican who has family here. If not for that, I would vastly prefer small town US. After almost 9 years here, I still find it 'challenging'.

Click to expand...

_Several good points covering a number of áreas, lance.

I am reminded of a movie from about 20 years ago or more, the name of which escapes me now, but one of the lines in that movie that stuck in my head was a narrative at the beginning of the movie ; and I paraphrase;

" In mountainous Central America , (I think he was referring to Honduras or Guatemala) , you view these mountain villages from afar and they are magnificently beautiful and spectacular in those impossibly green mountainous environments often with a splendid church in the center of the village and, perhaps, the ubiquitous Coca-Cola truck cruising the hillside streets delivering Latin America´s favorite beverage and you drive that gorgeous, twisting mountain road up to this spectacle in anticipation of a few days in paradise and, when you get there you realize there are not only no pleasant hotels in which to stay for a time but not even one decent place to take a sh*t."


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## Isla Verde

lancekoz said:


> I don't know about all the regions of the country, but I don't find it very cheap to live here (in Guadalajara). If you want good food and a reasonable living space with modern appliances, it seems to cost as much as many places in the US (except large cities), which is odd because salaries are so low. .


I do find it much cheaper living in Mexico City than I would if I returned to the US to live, most likely in Philadelphia. I eat as well or much better than I did when living in the US. As far as reasonable living space and modern appliances are concerned, well, I am quite happy with my small apartment and don't need more modern appliances than a refrigerator, stove and toaster oven. Oops, almost forgot my new coffee-bean grinder! I think that expats who relocate to Mexico and hope to reproduce the way they lived in their home country may indeed find themselves spending as much money on daily expenses as they did back home, but I am not that kind of expat.


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> I do find it much cheaper living in Mexico City than I would if I returned to the US to live, most likely in Philadelphia. I eat as well or much better than I did when living in the US. As far as reasonable living space and modern appliances are concerned, well, I am quite happy with my small apartment and don't need more modern appliances than a refrigerator, stove and toaster oven. Oops, almost forgot my new coffee-bean grinder! I think that expats who relocate to Mexico and hope to reproduce the way they lived in their home country may indeed find themselves spending as much money on daily expenses as they did back home, but I am not that kind of expat.


IV, I think you are the kind of expat that lives "happily ever after" in Mexico. (that's a compliment). :cheer2: I'm not sure you are in the majority of expats here, honestly.
For some reason, many come here and want it just like "there", except they want it much cheaper. All they do is "bit*** and complain." It's never going to be that way here. 

We can live better (for us) NOB for about the same cost, many things balance out( such as utility costs are higher, but we can get better quality food for less-again, food that we enjoy). Housing (for us is a wash, as we own both small places) and taxes are about the same. Eating out costs less NOB (where we enjoy eating). Gas is cheaper (you do need a car), but as HD points out, when you get to that "beautiful pueblo" in the distance, there are usually lots of clean areas to relax. 

As lancekoz points out, I am also here because I am married to a Mexican Lady with "lots" of family here (11.5 years). If not for that, I could be gloriously happy in small town USA. Fortunately for me, she also likes small town USA, and we are spending more and more time there. She loves my family, and they love her. My family is much warmer than hers.

There are a lot of things I like about Mexico. But, since 1999, a lot has changed that makes Mexico now a good place to visit and not so much a good place to live any more (for me). At times (and I try really hard now), Mexico can still be a real challenge.

But, each person has needs and desires different from others, and that makes the world go round.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> As lancekoz points out, I am also here because I am married to a Mexican Lady with "lots" of family here (11.5 years).


I moved to Mexico (moved back, actually, because I have spent quite a bit of time here in the past) not because I had married a Mexican who felt the need to be near his family. but because I wanted to make a new life for myself in this wonderful, sometimes infuriating, but always interesting country. Also, from past experiences that began in 1966, I knew I would like living here and because my two modest pensions could finance a comfortable life for me here, something it would not be possible for me to have back in the States.


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## sunnyvmx

There is absolutely no way I could have the lifestyle NOB that I can afford here on just my SS. The burst appendix I suffered two years ago would have obliterated my savings, but here it made a small dent which I have replenished. My ex lives in an RV on his SS which is more than mine and I listen to his money woes as he attempts to live more and more frugally. I am one of those few that could and would be happy anywhere, but I know that in the States I would be merely existing and here I feel like I'm truly living. Now that I'm counting each day as a treasure on the downward slope of my life, I have no time for displeasure or depression or the stress that so many bring with them instead of dumping at the border and leaving it behind where it belongs.


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## citlali

well chicois if you do not like tornadoes or earthquake do not come to Chiapas we had both this month..
Colima has an atractive cnter but as Chicois say is too close to a live vocanoe. The reason the city is attractive is that they keep fixing it and rebuilding..The climate is too warm and humid for my taste as well. I like Comala right next to it but would not moved there either. You also would be pretty loney if you did not speak Spanish,

Anyone knows if the aair get messed up by the volcano in Colima like it does in Puebla?


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## TundraGreen

coondawg said:


> …
> We can live better (for us) NOB for about the same cost, many things balance out( such as utility costs are higher, but we can get better quality food for less-again, food that we enjoy). Housing (for us is a wash, as we own both small places) and taxes are about the same.
> …


Where is your place NOB with "taxes are about the same"? In Mexico my property tax is currently $1350 mxn, a little over $100 usd/year. The two places I last lived in the US, California and Colorado, had taxes of about $6000 usd/year and $4000 usd/year respectively.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> We can live better (for us) NOB for about the same cost, many things balance out( such as utility costs are higher, but we can get better quality food for less-again, food that we enjoy). Housing (for us is a wash, as we own both small places) and taxes are about the same. Eating out costs less NOB (where we enjoy eating).


I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that Mexico has better quality food for less money (I agree with that!) but that eating out is more expensive here? I find that hard to believe when I can have a complete meal at a local restaurant in my neighborhood for between 50 and 70 pesos, which is between 4 and 5 dollars (_más o menos_. No way I could eat that cheaply anywhere I'm familiar with back in the States, not even McDonalds, if you consider that to be food!


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## futureexpat23

lancekoz and coondawg, you have both given me some things to think about, thank you.

I am still going to do more research, but I am beginning to feel like it may not be as good of an idea as we originally thought.

Our main reasons to leave the states are, I want to live on the coast and don't think we can afford that here, and affordable healthcare, who knows what that will cost us 10 years from now, I only know that right now it would really eat in to our SS. Then there are the other reasons that many people mention, less litigious, children have more respect, and I'm sure you know the list.

We started out very open to Mexico, Central or South America, but it seems the farther south we look the hotter and more humid it gets, so we've been concentrating on Mexico now - and it is closer to coming back here to visit. 

As it is now, I don't go outside more than 2-4 hours a day (morning) in the summer (too hot), we run our A/C 6 months/year, and the heater 3, so the thought of having that same number of hours on the beach still sounds better than staying here, (and unless the A/C is going to cost more than here, we are used to that expense), hopefully in the cooler months I could be outside more. 

And when I first started my research on-line as I've mentioned, all I saw over & over, was how we could retire on the coast, 3 bed/2bath house, for less than $25K/year, so I thought it was very available. 

You have all been very helpful, and I will be here asking a lot more questions, I am not giving up on making this work, and if it doesn't I will know for sure I did everything I could and it's just not a reality for us.


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## Hound Dog

I´ve told this before, but what the hell. When I was often assigned to work in the Pacific Northwest out of my home base in San Francisco, my Northwestern colleagues in Seattle, Portland and Eugene used to rib me by asking if I planned, upon retirement, to move up there and continue to "Californicate" their precious rainforests. Well, Dawg is a native of Alabama, the most heavily timbered state in the U.S. so I would tell them their rainforests were not that impressive to me and, besides, I couldn´t take all that "chipi-chipi" (constant overcast and drizzle) in retirement so I was headed south where the sun shines. In fact we had tentatively chosen parts of Arizona, New Mexico or the Gulf Coast of Alabama as retirement options but as we looked around these places we became discouraged so, all of a sudden, Mexico popped into our heads. Actually, Highland Colombia popped there first but it was a bit too violent back then. So, Mexico it was with candidate communities being Guadalajara or Lake Chapala, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca City and Merida. As it turns out, we chose Lake Chapala´s "Lakeside" community and San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas; two very different places and we are pleased with those choices. Now, we were both beach people in our early years, I on the Gulf beaches of Alabama and Northwest Florida and my wife on the Atlantic Coast of France but we have a different perspective now and decided Highland Mexico with that wonderful climate was the place for us while we could always visit the beach during the pleasant winter months. If you are a beach person, you will make decisions different from those we made and that´s OK since, if we all desired the same place, it would become overcrowded and we´d all have to leave. 

Now, there are some pretty significant trade-offs between those two places at 5,000 and 7,000 feet respectively and as the future retiree considers where to retire in Mexico, I will say that, as you will be retired, climate is a big factor not to be taken lightly. For instance, the climate at Lake Chapala at 5,000 feet is outstanding, almost always sunny and pleasant all year round. The climate in the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet is variable and, sometimes, downright cold. My wife is in San Cristóbal as I write this in mid-July in the morning at about 10:00AM and the weather down there is splendid with high-mountain crystalline air and normal temperatura for this time of day in the summer in the low 70sF. However, if today is a normal summer day down there, mid-afternoon will bring cold, moist air and a deluge of rain so intense that the streets will flood and walking in the inundation becomes impossible. This intense storm may also bring hail or even tornados and this weather is the primary reason that, at this time of year, during the normal rainy season from about May to September, construction workers usually start work at 7:00AM and knock off at about 3:00PM. Actually, before the Spanish arrived here and established the town now knwn as San Cristóbal in the early 1500s (trying to escape the wrath of the lowland indigenous), the highland indigenous all lived in the mountains surrounding the Jovel Valley where San Cristóbal is now located because they knew the Jovel Valley was subject annually to serious flooding so they were happy to let the white foreign interlopers have that flood plain without (at that point) a fight.

So, at Lake Chapala one has a much nicer if less spectacular and variable climate than Highland Chiapas but another trade off is that the cost of living in the Chiapas Highlands is only a fraction of the cost of living in Greater Guadalajara and "Lakeside" as long as one lives like a local, rents or buys a local-style home, eats local foods at locally oriented eateries and shops at the incredibly cheap, huge and colorful indigenous market where one can buy an impressive variety of locally grown vegetables, fruits and farm animals for consumption and bargain clothing at countless stalls stretching into the horizon. Just remember that, while you can buy processed poultry there, the best bargain in poultry is to buy the whole bird live, carry it home by its feet and slaughter, pluck and gut it yourself. No, we haven´t done that ourselves but have been invited to events in the indigenous community where, before one eats a chicken, turkey, cow or pig, the slaughter, dressing and cooking of the animal is a necessary task and quite an event which may be why some locals are content as vegetarians much of the time. 

There are other things to consider:
* In the deep southeast of Mexico, one has easy access to the Pacific, Caribbean and Gulf Coasts of the country and can choose among cool highlands, the hot country (Tierra Caliente) or the sea. There is a big diffference among the Pacific (say Huatulco or Puerto Escondidio, Oaxaca or the primitive Chiapas Coast), the Gulf (say Isla Holbox or Veracruz) and the Caribbean (say Playa Del Carmen or Xcalak) and if one lives in the Highlands down there one can pick and choose the beach environment one wishes to visit at random when the weather is suitable then head home to the cool, refreshing mountains. 
* Lake Chapala is nice because one is close to Guadalajara´s international airport plus Guadalajara is a fine city so excellent urban amenities are nearby. On the other hand, the only really logical beaches easily reached are those along the (fairly) nearby Pacific which is OK - I would avoid making a decisión based on that. 

Whatever the new retiree decides, only living down here will show that decsion to have been correct or not correct. We lived at Lake Chapala for five years before buying and restoring a home in distant Chiapas with the intention of moveng down there. Now, we like both places and that´s a good thing because selling real estate in both places can be a bit problematic these days.


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## coondawg

TundraGreen said:


> Where is your place NOB with "taxes are about the same"? In Mexico my property tax is currently $1350 mxn, a little over $100 usd/year. The two places I last lived in the US, California and Colorado, had taxes of about $6000 usd/year and $4000 usd/year respectively.


About an hour from Austin, Texas, in the "Hill Country". I have a 3/2 Double wide that is 4 years old, and 10 lots. My taxes are under $300 USD a year, and my taxes in Leon, Mexico, are $149.85 USD a year (3/3), about 6 years old. You can't compare mine to yours, because I(we) really enjoy that location in Texas, and you probably would not. So, to live where you would enjoy life in the US would cost you more. I'm quite sure your tastes are different from ours, and that is ok. Each to their own, no?


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that Mexico has better quality food for less money (I agree with that!) but that eating out is more expensive here? I find that hard to believe when I can have a complete meal at a local restaurant in my neighborhood for between 50 and 70 pesos, which is between 4 and 5 dollars (_más o menos_. No way I could eat that cheaply anywhere I'm familiar with back in the States, not even McDonalds, if you consider that to be food!


No, IV, I'm not saying that. I am saying that for us, the food we purchase NOB is less expensive and the quality is so much better NOB(in the foods that we enjoy the most). And, eating out is less expensive for us NOB (in the places we enjoy) than in those in Mexico((except when we eat at Isi's Taco Stand (brother-in-law)). Remember, NOB, some places offer big discounts to Seniors that ask for the discount, and sometimes even more to regular customers on certain days. So, we are essentially in "food heaven" when we are NOB, and we love to cook and eat at home in both places. Remember, you are a big city girl, and I am a small town, country boy, and there is LOTS of differences in those 2 places. I (we) are very happy in that NOB environment, and you would not be. Takes a special type of person (no offense intended). To each his own, no? 

Also, remember, we do not live in Mexico City and you do not live in Leon. So, it really is not possible to compare costs.
P.S. Wife says that eating in Leon at "The Happy Chicken" is cheaper here in Mexico, along with Isi's.


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## futureexpat23

Hound Dog, thank you for retelling and giving me more locations to consider.

At this point, if beach or very near doesn't work out for us, Lake Chapala is our first non-beach location to look at, I haven't read anything bad about it, and even tho we wouldn't swim in it, being out on the water might be a nice alternative, and the weather and people sound amazing.

Deep southeast sounds good too, being near all those beach options, the other areas are considerations also, if we give up the beach then we've got so many places to choose from, and then can be more picky too 

At 7,000 feet do many people have breathing, pain or other issues that you know of? 
We will be 10 years older by then, who knows what we'll be dealing with at that point.


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## Longford

futureexpat23 said:


> I am still going to do more research, but I am beginning to feel like it may not be as good of an idea as we originally thought.


Don't get discouraged as the results of comments you're receiving here. Your possible relocation is years away and you have time to seriously consider the responses and think more deeply about the many good issues raised. Let the questions/answers percolate for a while.



> Our main reasons to leave the states are, I want to live on the coast and don't think we can afford that here


I have no doubt you (and I) can live "on the coast" for $25,000 or less, yearly. The question bounced-back to you could be "Will you be happy living on the coast and in the housing that'll allow you to do so for that $25,000 a year?"



> ...and affordable healthcare, who knows what that will cost us 10 years from now, I only know that right now it would really eat in to our SS.


I have no doubts in my mind that the healthcare you'd receive in the USA is and will continue to be better than what you'd receive in Mexico. Cheaper, low-cost doesn't mean you'll get better care. And "healthcare" costs vary by personal condition. Someone needing only a couple of visits a year will be fine just about any place in Mexico. Someone with serious or chronic illnesses needing specialized attention ought to consider limiting their relocation search to someplace nearby: Mexico City, Guadalajara or Monterrey.



> Then there are the other reasons that many people mention, less litigious, children have more respect, and I'm sure you know the list.


Less litigious translates into less protection for you and me, generally. It's fine if you've not been wronged and/or have no dispute with someone else, including the government. But once something goes wrong and you look for protection/help, I think you'll find much less help/protection in Mexico than in the USA. About the "respect" comment: I don't buy that. People who didn't get respect back home probably won't find much of it from people they come to know in Mexico ... because of their personality/things they do which offend others, etc. Mexicans can be as ignorant and offensive and uncaring as anyone else. 



> We started out very open to Mexico, Central or South America, but it seems the farther south we look the hotter and more humid it gets, so we've been concentrating on Mexico now - and it is closer to coming back here to visit.


Proximity to the USA/Canada and the relative ease of returning "home" to see friends/family or to attend to medical problems is easier to do from Mexico than from south of Mexico ... that's a given and it's a reason often cited by expats living in regions such as Baja California, the Guadalajara area (including the Lakeside communities) and San Miguel de Allende - to name just three). 



> thought of having that same number of hours on the beach still sounds better than staying here, (and unless the A/C is going to cost more than here, we are used to that expense), hopefully in the cooler months I could be outside more.


Most beachfront communities I'm familiar with in Mexico are warm/hot year-round. Humid, too. Obviously, there are months which are more intense than others and there are those rare cooler days when a storm is passing through. But if you're going to consider beach living you'll have to accept a lot of hot/humid weather and high electrictity bills if you run a lot of air conditioning. 



> And when I first started my research on-line as I've mentioned, all I saw over & over, was how we could retire on the coast, 3 bed/2bath house, for less than $25K/year, so I thought it was very available.


From what I observe, my opinion is that most if not all of the folks writing books/articles about retiring to Mexico 'on the cheap' have little experience living in Mexico and are just peddling books or real estate. BS artists, thats what I think they are. We can live inexpensively, but, as I said earlier, are we willing to live with some restrictions (ceiling fan instead of air conditioner, housing in areas where few or no expats are living, shopping in the mercados and not in the more expensive supermarkets for everything, giving up a car, etc.)

Best of luck with the continuing planning process.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> Just remember that, while you can buy processed poultry there, the best bargain in poultry is to buy the whole bird live, carry it home by its feet and slaughter,
> 
> Whatever the new retiree decides, only living down here will show that decsion to have been correct or not correct. We lived at Lake Chapala for five years before buying and restoring a home in distant Chiapas with the intention of moveng down there. Now, we like both places and that´s a good thing because selling real estate in both places can be a bit problematic these days.


Aah, I remember well my grandfather catching a chicken on Sunday morning, and giving it to my grandmother. She did the rest, starting with the wringing in the yard, the pot of boiling water, the plucking the feathers, etc. Those were the days that my children missed out on. 

I think HD has it right, at least what I think many people would prefer, if they decide that Mexico is for them (unless they prefer the big city). We also liked Chapala, but something was missing part of the year. I think he has solved the problem, at least for them. 2 places I find ideal. Offers a lot.


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## Hound Dog

futureexpat23 said:


> lancekoz and coondawg, you have both given me some things to think about, thank you.
> 
> I am still going to do more research, but I am beginning to feel like it may not be as good of an idea as we originally thought.
> 
> Our main reasons to leave the states are, I want to live on the coast and don't think we can afford that here, and affordable healthcare, who knows what that will cost us 10 years from now, I only know that right now it would really eat in to our SS. Then there are the other reasons that many people mention, less litigious, children have more respect, and I'm sure you know the list.
> 
> We started out very open to Mexico, Central or South America, but it seems the farther south we look the hotter and more humid it gets, so we've been concentrating on Mexico now - and it is closer to coming back here to visit.
> 
> As it is now, I don't go outside more than 2-4 hours a day (morning) in the summer (too hot), we run our A/C 6 months/year, and the heater 3, so the thought of having that same number of hours on the beach still sounds better than staying here, (and unless the A/C is going to cost more than here, we are used to that expense), hopefully in the cooler months I could be outside more.
> 
> And when I first started my research on-line as I've mentioned, all I saw over & over, was how we could retire on the coast, 3 bed/2bath house, for less than $25K/year, so I thought it was very available.
> 
> You have all been very helpful, and I will be here asking a lot more questions, I am not giving up on making this work, and if it doesn't I will know for sure I did everything I could and it's just not a reality for us.


futuree:

When we were living in Northern California about 15 years ago, I complained to my sister who lives in Alabama on Mobile Bay that we had had a particularly hot July and we had had to have turned on our central air conditioning system there in the Mayacamas Mountains between the Sonoma and Napa Valleys for 20 days which we had found to be an unusual phenomenon in that área after having lived there for a number of years. She responded; "Bob, here on Mobile Bay, we turn on the cental air conditioning in April and turn it off in October." Everything is either here or there.

You seem to be trying to learn about Latin America and not being pleased with what you see so here are some hints:
* On Mainland Mexico (excluding Baja California), you can, indeed live on the beach in many places much more cheaply than in the U.S., sometimes a lot more cheaply, but (once again, out of Baja) you will experience searing heat and humidity much of the year in most beachfront locations with, perhaps, intermittent exceptions. To each his/her own but we would never establish a permanennt home on the beach here in Mexico but live in the highlands for great weather all year round and visit the beach during the (perhaps) more pleasant weather. 
* Concerning everything in Latin America between here in Mexico and the Equator, the key to a splended climate is altidude followed closely by weather phenomena. It does not necessarily get hotter and more humid the further south you go so you need to think about this a bit more. Our home in Chiapas, many kilometers southeast of our home on Lake Chapala, is in a much colder and more variable climate than our home on the lake which is much farther north. You´ll need to figure this out for yourself. 
* Sincé you like to be outside in moderate temperaturas on beaches, I must say, Lake Chapala is ideal for you. Endless kilometers of deserted, hard-packed beaches to stroll in a splendid climate almost every day of the year and if the lake re-fills and covers the beaches, endless kilometers of smooth, well-maintained, deserted dirt roads just inland and paralelling the swollen lake. I walk this beach and dirt road environment with my five mutts almost every day and usually without leashes so I´m not just blowing smoke. 

Good luck to you in your search for the perfect place which, unfortunately, probably does not exict.


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## Isla Verde

> Concerning everything in Latin America between here in Mexico and the Equator, the key to a splended climate is altidude followed closely by weather phenomena. It does not necessarily get hotter and more humid the further south you go so you need to think about this a bit more. Our home in Chiapas, many kilometers southeast of our home on Lake Chapala, is in a much colder and more variable climate than our home on the lake which is much farther north. You´ll need to figure this out for yourself.


When people back in the States ask me how can I live in such a hot place, I patiently explain to them what Hound Dog has outlined in the above quote: in Mexico the climate depends on altitude, not on latitude.


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## futureexpat23

Longford, thank you, that's very helpful, and helps me realize how detailed I need to get in my research. Definitely not giving up, we knew going in we'd have to adjust our plans, just hoping reality isn't too far from our dream.

The $25K beach house was presented as really nice, but like you said ( and I am finding out) BS artists selling books and seminars - big let down for me once I realized.

Hound Dog - I wasn't clear when I said going south/getting hotter, it was only coastal areas that I meant.

And Lake Chapala really is looking more & more attractive, I was thinking walking around it would be great, I love to walk, and that's really what I like to do on the beach more than go in the water, I find the listening/watching the waves very relaxing/soothing. 

So if we were to live in the highlands where ever we decide on, how easy is it to find a rental on the beach in the cooler months, if that's as common as it sounds it might be, would we be competing with return guests that have "first dibs", or is it not really that common, and many still find it too hot/humid?

As far as the perfect place goes, I guess that should be where ever my husband is


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## coondawg

futureexpat23 said:


> As far as the perfect place goes, I guess that should be where ever my husband is


Hang on to that thought, and I certainly hope he shares that feeling about you. 

You have lots of time, and use some of it for short vacations to places in Mexico that make your list. Don't get discouraged, there are places you will find that are comfortable for you and you will like. The nice thing about rentals is that you can always "move on" if you are not happy there. When you get to a place, ask people who "live there" lots of questions; climate and weather, do they go to a beach, what do they not like about that area, lots of questions. But, remember to enjoy your trips to Mexico, too.


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## Hound Dog

As for living in small towns - they are akin to a tortured slow death which never seems achievable- especially if you are not originally of there with family and friends and a personal and productive purpose for being there even if it means managing a pig farm. This holds true whereever you may decide to reside on the planet, I grew up in a small Alabama town and that was OK because I had something to accomplish there. I had to complete schooling and head out to university and then get the hell out of there forever. As soon as the leash was inoperative I was off to Paris, Washington, DC , Los Angeles and San Francisco among other places as fast as I could get to those places. When Sharon Tate and her friends were murdered in the 60s I was on my way from Oakland to Addis Ababa and I never looked back. Small towns anywhere would bore a tick to death despite the abundance of raw, nourishing foodstuffs. Can you imagine moving by yourself to a small Mexican (or French or Kenyan) village where you will be forever the eccentric oddity There are many outback villages in Mexico where the locals will never adjust to your presence and may make your life miserable down the line. France is even wrse.


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## lancekoz

Well, the difference in the living style and quality can be quite a surprise... you surely should visit before you plan too much, and see how it suits you. SOme people really take to it, as you can see in this forum. 
Thinking about the climate is one of the most difficult aspects I would have with moving back to the US. You could live a little to the west of GDL, and enjoy this great moderate climate, be in a cheaper town, and be within 3-4 hours of the coast. Not the beach house of your dreams... but not bad either.


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## Hound Dog

I'll tell you all a good story. which, i think, will also give you some inisghts into moving down here and investing in the best alternative properties available regardless of price. I am going to cite three relatively remote beachfront vilages on the Pacific Ocean; all of which are somewhat primitive and fairly remote but characterized by the fact that they are located directly on the Pacific with fabulous and robust Pacific swells upon open sea. Look at your map and tell me. regardless of price, (which would be very reasonable) in whch of these three villages you would buy a seafront home:
* Puerto Arista, Chiapas
* Playa Troncones, Guerrero
* Playa Ventura, Guerrero
* San Agustin, Oaxaca 

Let´s limit this exploration to isolated Pacific Coast towns diectly on the beach with a full, unmodified Pacific type surroundings and admirable Pacific surf that will blow your mind. Each of these towns delivers that without compromise and each are isolated beachfront communities, some in surrounding unsettled áreas where the law is, normally defined by the guy with the firearm. That, by the way, does not make the town dangerous for you but how do you figure that out? 

I can tell you in which of these beach towns I would buy a beachfront propety and in which I would move on immedately. You guys thinking of moving down here and buying a beach property tell me where you would buy if these physically outsanding. beach front properties were made availabe to you timorrow.I.m cot sellin anything - just having fun.


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## futureexpat23

coondawg - so far he shares the thought, let's see how we feel after spending 24/7 together  No, we'll have our own interests and time apart.

Actually getting excited (and impatient) to get to those vacations, owning a business that my husband works in makes that difficult, we can only manage 1 a year usually, but like you said we have time.

Hound Dog - I grew up in a village in NY so know what you mean about the small towns, and can imagine it being even more so in a country that we are foreign to - want something small enough to be able to get around without a car preferably, but also have some ex-pats and the locals who like us being there. Looking forward to the answers you get to your "fun" survey

lancekoz - I think that's more realistic for us, not on the beach, but as close as possible in a place that meets our other requirements


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## lagoloo

Hound Dawg: The sound of the pounding surf would drive me nuts after a while, so no gracias to any of them. Then, there's the bad guys....hmm.


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## TundraGreen

futureexpat23 said:


> …
> want something small enough to be able to get around without a car preferably, but also have some ex-pats and the locals who like us being there.
> …


I think "small enough to get around without a car" is a contradiction. My experience living in various sized towns from 5 thousand to 5 million is that the bigger cities are easier to live in without a car. They will have lots of services clustered together and a public transit system to get to places more distant.


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## citlali

Agreed , it is easier to live in a large city without a car than in a small town. Would hate to have a car in Paris or Mexico City although it is nice to have when you want out.
I live a lot in San Cristobal de las Casas without a car and I need a car in Ajijic..


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## Hound Dog

_


lagoloo said:



Hound Dawg: The sound of the pounding surf would drive me nuts after a while, so no gracias to any of them. Then, there's the bad guys....hmm.

Click to expand...

_Funny you say that, Lagaloo:

When we married in 1971, we rented a home on the mouth of the beautiful Fowl River just as it entered placid but wide and engaging Mobile Bay. A splendid and exotic environment and the home we rented was surrounded by acres of mature gardens and magnificent old trees including some nice citrus fruit trees and the whole thing looked out over the confluence of the river and Mobile Bay and across to Mon Luis Island with its people of Cajun heritage and that was a fine place to live despite the gargantuan cockroaches and poisonous snakes and river rats that could steal and, with teamwork, carry off your refrigerator. 

Then, many years later in about 1980, we bought a shack overlooking the Pacific Ocean on the Fitzgerald Marine Reserve just south of San Francisco´s infamous Devil´s Slide and, in that área, the Pacific is, shall we say, stirred-up and prone to deliver gigantic waves 24/7 (a term not used in those days) and, even though we were surrounded by other beachfront shacks, the constant pounding of the Pacific waves was an isolating factor. One felt completely alone there and I mean that in its most positive definition. To me, it was akin to living in a heavenly environment and I was working across San Francisco Bay in Downtown Oakland, a tiresome commute but the constantly ferocious sea took away all references to work or time and soothed all anxieties - at least for me. 

Now, my darlin' wife and I have been married for 43 years and have lived in many homes from Alabama to California to Mexico and we usually see eye-to-eye on where we live and , despite the considerably foggy weather on the Northern California Coast, we had agreed upon that shack at Moss Beach as a place to live because our geographically widely dispersed employment obligations in those days made that location practical.

So, here we were in this, at that time, rundown seashack and that Pacific swell just kept pounding away below the cliff incessantly with no time-outs and there we were sleeping with windows open overlooking the magnificent Pacific and my wife leaps from our bed in the middle of the night a few nights after we moved there and rushes to the window screaming; "Just shut the f*ck up!" which it didn´t, of course. So, after about ten years of this, we moved to the sunshine and quietness of North Beach/Chinatown in San Francisco and that is where we learned about the almost constant Chinese fireworks celebrations. So, then we moved to the secluded Mayacamas Mountains between the Sonoma and Napa Valleys among the fir trees and the silence of the foested hills drove me crazy. I found myself, living in this deep silence, missing the midnight frog serenade on the shore of Mobile Bay. Later, we got that back in Ajijic plus birds singing on steriods.

I have no complaints about Lake Chapala or Chiapas. Mexico is it. ,


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## lancekoz

I forgot to mention, actually, my favorite place to go on the Pacific side is Melaque/Barra de Navidad. These are 'villagey' towns to the north of the larger port town of Manzanillo. There's a quite good hiway from GDL serving the area, and on the way is a nice town at good altitude called Colima (adjacent to a very impressive volcano). You'd probably be within an hour and a half of good beachy fun there without the high temps.


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## RVGRINGO

Colima is very nice, but it does get very hot and humid, as it is too far inland and is sheltered from ocean breezes. One must go inland and upward another two hours to get temperate year-round climates, like Chapala (small and unpolluted) or Guadalajara (huge and polluted).


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## lancekoz

RVGRINGO said:


> Colima is very nice, but it does get very hot and humid, as it is too far inland and is sheltered from ocean breezes. One must go inland and upward another two hours to get temperate year-round climates, like Chapala (small and unpolluted) or Guadalajara (huge and polluted).


Oh, I stand corrected then... I spent time in Colima only twice and neither time was it in summer. I beleieve that Chapala is even warmer than GDL, don't you think? Or at least noticeably more humid.

-L


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## lancekoz

Did you say your Chiapan home is in San Cristobal? That place is amazingly international and urbane


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## coondawg

One thing I always enjoyed in Chapala, except maybe in late March, April, and May, was the fact that when it was really hot out, one could step into the shade and the temperature would seem to drop 20+ degrees immediately.  
April and May, the last few years, have really been unusually hot.


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## coondawg

lancekoz said:


> Oh, I stand corrected then... I spent time in Colima only twice and neither time was it in summer.
> 
> -L


I, too, have been to Colima twice, for 2-3 days each time, and I found it lovely. Luck of the draw, I guess.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Colima is very nice, but it does get very hot and humid, as it is too far inland and is sheltered from ocean breezes. One must go inland and upward another two hours to get temperate year-round climates, like Chapala (small and unpolluted) or Guadalajara (huge and polluted).


According to data from the World Health Organization, the air quality in Guadalajara is better than most other measured cities in Mexico. WHO Data

They include data for:
Guadalajara
Irapuato
Leòn
Mexico city
Monterrey
Puebla
Salamanca 
Silao
Toluca

Only Puebla has a lower count for coarse particles, and none has a lower count for fine particles.

My perception is that the air down toward the airport and Lake Chapala is worse than the rest of Guadalajara. The lake area itself is probably protected from that pollution by the hills that separate Lake Chapala from the rest of the Guadalajara Metropolitan area. But just north of those hills the air seems bad. 

In the dry, winter, season, the air seems to have a lot of soot in it. During the rainy, summer season, it is very clear and clean.


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## citlali

yes we live part of the time in Ajijic and part of the time in San Cristobal. we enjoy the change of pace.Iy is nice to be near the cener ie block away from the market and walk everywhere or use public transportation.
Right now I am down there and have no car and do not miss it or need it a bit abd that is nice especially when the weather is nice no so great when it rains..,


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## RVGRINGO

lancekoz said:


> Oh, I stand corrected then... I spent time in Colima only twice and neither time was it in summer. I beleieve that Chapala is even warmer than GDL, don't you think? Or at least noticeably more humid.-L


Chapala is a slightly more stable, comfortable climate than Guadalajara, due to the moderating influence of the lake, and is also a micro-climate where rains are much more predictable, both by season and by time of day within the rainy season, due to both the lake and the surrounding mountains. Those mountains, and the prevailing weather pattern, prevent the Guadalajara pollution from affecting the Lake Chapala area, though it is only some 35 miles distant.


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## futureexpat23

TundraGreen said:


> I think "small enough to get around without a car" is a contradiction. My experience living in various sized towns from 5 thousand to 5 million is that the bigger cities are easier to live in without a car. They will have lots of services clustered together and a public transit system to get to places more distant.


Yes, I see your point, I have a specific place in mind (in CA) that I base my comment on, which has everything we need for the day to day living within walking distance, and public transport to the weekly or monthly places also, but that's probably not the norm, had thought it would be easy to find based on some blogs on the internet, buying a car just not what we wanted to deal with until we got settled and figured out what we are doing.

Until I found out about the volcano I thought Colima was a good place to consider, from what I read it wasn't as hot/humid as the beach, but only an hour away, but don't want to if we would be in danger if it erupts.


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## coondawg

futureexpat23 said:


> Until I found out about the volcano I thought Colima was a good place to consider, from what I read it wasn't as hot/humid as the beach, but only an hour away, but don't want to if we would be in danger if it erupts.


If it "really" erupted, I doubt that there would be many places in Mexico very safe. I think maybe El Popo is the more dangerous, however.


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## futureexpat23

Well then maybe I'll look at it some more - I don't know much about volcanoes erupting and how far the lava flows, we lived near Mt Rainier in the late 60's, and I remember some rumbling, but I think that's normal, I heard adults talking about it erupting and as a kid I thought that would be pretty cool.


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## TundraGreen

futureexpat23 said:


> Well then maybe I'll look at it some more - I don't know much about volcanoes erupting and how far the lava flows, we lived near Mt Rainier in the late 60's, and I remember some rumbling, but I think that's normal, I heard adults talking about it erupting and as a kid I thought that would be pretty cool.


Affecting all of Mexico as coondawg suggested is more than a bit of an exaggeration, maybe he was exaggerating for effect intentionally.

There are several different kinds of hazards in volcanic eruptions. This link has a pretty good summary of them:

Volcano of Colima, volcanic hazards, volcanoes

Colima is located on a debris flow created during an eruption about 2000 years ago. It would take a very large eruption of Volcán de Fuego to threaten Colima, but it has happened in the past. In smaller eruptions the dangers would more likely be ash falls which can be damaging to lungs and machinery.


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## RVGRINGO

There is a volcano in the USA which has been gurgling and burping for a long time. When it erupts; and it is long overdue, it will probably destroy the USA. It is Yellowstone.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> There is a volcano in the USA which has been gurgling and burping for a long time. When it erupts; and it is long overdue, it will probably destroy the USA. It is Yellowstone.


All of Yellowstone National is a volcano? I had no idea!


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## RVGRINGO

It is huge. It is the caldera of the volcano.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> There is a volcano in the USA which has been gurgling and burping for a long time. When it erupts; and it is long overdue, it will probably destroy the USA. It is Yellowstone.


More hyperbole I am afraid. Yellowstone is what has been called a "supervolcano". In the past there have been major eruptions, the most recent occurring 640,000 years ago. There is no evidence that another major eruption is imminent, although smaller events are common.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> It is huge. It is the caldera of the volcano.


It is indeed huge. There are actually four overlapping calderas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera


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## futureexpat23

tundragreen, thanks for the link - my education for the day! From the picture, the last eruption reached Colima, something to keep in mind. I did look some on-line last week about it, and found something that said it's been showing some activity and being watched, I think that was from 5 years ago, and of course they'll keep an eye on any volcano that could create problems, that article made it sound like they were expecting an eruption, an opinion I realize.

Of course from reports on the weather, global warming and holes opening up, it could be taken all the way to, the earth is going to explode one day, then it won't matter where we are. :biggrin1: (not wanting to offend anyone)


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

TundraGreen said:


> More hyperbole I am afraid. Yellowstone is what has been called a "supervolcano". In the past there have been major eruptions, the most recent occurring 640,000 years ago. There is no evidence that another major eruption is imminent, although smaller events are common.


HaHa, Tundra - it last erupted 640,000 years ago, so we're cool, you say. Ha, except that it ERUPTS as a super volcano every, oh, 640,000 years or so!!!

We're due, baby! The worriers I know have added Yellowstone to their list of concerns ever since the Discovery or History channel did a big special on it a few years ago. Global warming, meteors, Yellowstone caldera, foot fungus, the list goes on.

wiki: The major features of the caldera measure about 34 by 45 miles (55 by 72 km).[3] The caldera formed during the last of three supereruptions over the past 2.1 million years. First came the Huckleberry Ridge eruption 2.1 million years ago, which created the Island Park Caldera and the Huckleberry Ridge Tuff. Next came the Mesa Falls eruption 1.3 million years ago, which created the Henry's Fork Caldera and the Mesa Falls Tuff. Finally came the Lava Creek eruption 640,000 years ago, which created the Yellowstone Caldera and the Lava Creek Tuff.


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## chicois8

Back on topic please........


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## coondawg

Just a guess, but I think with Yellowstone, we have a good 10,000 - 15,000 years before the next eruption.


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## TundraGreen

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> HaHa, Tundra - it last erupted 640,000 years ago, so we're cool, you say. Ha, except that it ERUPTS as a super volcano every, oh, 640,000 years or so!!!
> 
> We're due, baby! The worriers I know have added Yellowstone to their list of concerns ever since the Discovery or History channel did a big special on it a few years ago. Global warming, meteors, Yellowstone caldera, foot fungus, the list goes on.
> 
> wiki: The major features of the caldera measure about 34 by 45 miles (55 by 72 km).[3] The caldera formed during the last of three supereruptions over the past 2.1 million years. First came the Huckleberry Ridge eruption 2.1 million years ago, which created the Island Park Caldera and the Huckleberry Ridge Tuff. Next came the Mesa Falls eruption 1.3 million years ago, which created the Henry's Fork Caldera and the Mesa Falls Tuff. Finally came the Lava Creek eruption 640,000 years ago, which created the Yellowstone Caldera and the Lava Creek Tuff.


Well, let's look at that. The recent big eruptions were, as you noted, 2,100,000, 1,300,000 and 640,000 years ago. Each "eruption" was not a single event but rather periods covering thousands of years. There is no evidence that we will enter another such period any time soon.

No Yellowstone mega-eruption coming, experts say

People can worry if they want. I have lots more important things to worry about, like whether to have rice or potatoes with dinner tonight.


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## izzenhood

This is a great discussion for others, like myself, considering a move to Mexico. I would have to agree that climate is a major consideration. Personally I favor cool and dry climates. While I'm fascinated by the ocean, I'm happier in the mountains. I don't know much about Mexico. Unfortunately I will comment anyway.

I could live in the Chapala area, it's cooler than where I live in Colorado. Been there twice, very briefly in Chapala, Ajijic, Jocotopec. I could live there, although it seems a little too discovered.

Chiapas Highlands sound interesting but probably too rainy for me and now I don't recall if there was an airport nearby. Sorry I can't comment on beach areas in Mexico; but I did find the Todos Santos (cool) vs Loreto (hot) post very interesting.

Guanajuato has been my favorite so far, but no beaches nearby. However, I have only been there in the depths of winter. 40's F at night and 70's during the day. Perfect in my estimation. April-June days are in the 90's, nights in the 50-60's.

Also, I was wondering about hiking and maybe jeeping around in the various areas. Is it generally too brushy to hike around? Is it safe to venture out on the back roads? I think it is OK in the Guanajuato area, and southern Baja, but what about Chiapas, and Chapala? I don't know.

Anyway, this is a great thread and I'll be checking back. Thanks All.

Steve Lappin
Grand Junction, Colorado


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## Isla Verde

Welcome to the Mexico Forum, Steve! Like José Martí, you and I and many others prefer the mountains to the sea. I am also partial to dry, cool climates, which is one reason that I like living in Mexico City.


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## coondawg

izzenhood said:


> Also, I was wondering about hiking and maybe jeeping around in the various areas. Is it generally too brushy to hike around? Is it safe to venture out on the back roads? I think it is OK in the Guanajuato area, and southern Baja, but what about Chiapas, and Chapala? I don't know..
> 
> Steve Lappin
> Grand Junction, Colorado


From what I know, it is relatively safe if you are in a decent sized group, and certainly not alone. You should use precautions that you would not go onto private property without permission, nor go on those roads when isolated or when it is getting dark. Hiking, you would want to be sure you did not come upon anyone's MJ growing area, that could cause you grave harm. Just remember, you will be in a foreign country, not in a playground. Good luck.


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