# Workers rights in the EU



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

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The European Parliament is discussing today the possibility of cutting some workers rights. They have agreed that all workers should have equal rights concerning salaries, working conditions, social security, training, and safety. However today, they are looking at rights concerning pensions, housing, scolarships, grants and education.

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> Los trabajadores extranjeros vendrían a Europa a trabajar bajo las leyes laborales de sus países de origen"


"Foreign workers would come to Europe to work under the labour laws of their country of origen" said Alejandro Cercas, eurodiputado of PSOE.

Unbelievably, I can find nothing about this in the main UK press although it's widely reported in the Spanish press. Here's a link
La UE recorta los derechos de los trabajadores precarios inmigrantes - Público.es

So, will workers be covered adequately enough if these measures go through?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Sounds like a right bag of worms.

Who on earth understands and will enforce British labour laws in mainland Europe and vice versa. I think once again the legal profession are about to make another killing,

Hepa


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *
> The European Parliament is discussing today the possibility of cutting some workers rights. They have agreed that all workers should have equal rights concerning salaries, working conditions, social security, training, and safety. However today, they are looking at rights concerning pensions, housing, scolarships, grants and education.
> 
> *
> ...


I think it's been blocked - if this is the same thing?
No agreement on legislation on a single permit to live and work in the EU


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's been blocked - if this is the same thing?
> No agreement on legislation on a single permit to live and work in the EU


That's it!
So it's not going any further for the moment.

I like the site, I hadn't seen it before.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

I agree that worker rights have to be reviewed. They should be INCREASED. More power to labour unions, easier access to strikes when necessary. I have worked for several multinationals and the way the staff is treated is downward disgusting in several cases I've witnessed with own eyes. The idea that the EU would want to decrease the power of labour unions disgusts me.

As for people coming to a country under the labour laws of their native land... I doubt this is enforcable. I am against it to start with, but even when ignoring my own opinion, I doubt this is enforcable. It also creates a dangerous precedent because it would open the door to do similar changes to other laws. The EU should create a clear law to be enforced in all member states. And not the type of law they were considering lately...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EU labour laws used to be my special field when I worked for my professional association but I dealt mainly with anti-discrimination laws in the six strands....race, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation and religion/ethnicity.
The other laws relating to working hours, contracts of employment etc. are much more flexible in the UK than in most other EU countries. There is a school of thought that says that is precisely why we did so well in the Blair boom years. Interestingly, although the Blair Government adopted the Social Chapter which enabled the anti-discrimination laws they kept the rest of the UK employment legislation and refused to repeal the Thatcher trades union laws.
Gerrit and Alcalaina will disagree with me on this but I actually think this was the right course.
In this age of austerity more 'easy-going' EU states such as Germany and France are beginning to count the cost, both in economic and industrial terms, of their more relaxed laws.
I shall be watching this with interest.
Incidentally, I read a piece by Neil Lawson, of the left-leaning think tank Compass,in the New Statesman last week calling for a EU-wide minimum wage.
What planet are these people on?


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> EU labour laws used to be my special field when I worked for my professional association but I dealt mainly with anti-discrimination laws in the six strands....race, gender, age, disability, sexual orientation and religion/ethnicity.


In the political movement I am joining this will be one of my work groups as well. I'm a newbie of course as I just decided to affiliate, but I'm quite enthousiast to be part of the project. 

It's not a political party I am joining but a political movement that brings together several left-wing parties in order to try to form a stronger united leftist front. So every leftist is welcome, regardless how far or moderate on the left side of the spectrum. I deliberately chose to affiliate with this group, because I think it's more diverse than a strict political party, with more different opinions and thus more interesting to further expand political knowledge. More interesting for debating as well.

Minority rights is one of the working groups I've asked to be signed up for.




Anyway, a EU-wide minimum wage would be utopic but at this point unrealistic. To achieve that, it would first be needed that all EU states have the same cost of living as well. Salaries should be somewhat in balance with the expenses of everyday life. One cannot expect the minimum wage in a lower cost country such as Hungary to be on par with those of a country where life itself is very expensive. A Hungarian colleague of mine told the average salary for office workers in Budapest was about the rent alone of a flat in the average Irish city... The moment we have a cost of life more or less identic in the whole of Europe we can think of a EU-wide minimum salary ; but I doubt this situation will ever happen.

That said, I would like to see more focus on closing the salary gap between several levels of the hierarchy rather than closing salary gaps between several countries.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gerrit said:


> In the political movement I am joining this will be one of my work groups as well. I'm a newbie of course as I just decided to affiliate, but I'm quite enthousiast to be part of the project.
> 
> It's not a political party I am joining but a political movement that brings together several left-wing parties in order to try to form a stronger united leftist front. So every leftist is welcome, regardless how far or moderate on the left side of the spectrum. I deliberately chose to affiliate with this group, because I think it's more diverse than a strict political party, with more different opinions and thus more interesting to further expand political knowledge. More interesting for debating as well.
> 
> ...



Yes, a EU-wide minimum wage is a non-starter.
Do you think your political movement will be able to achieve anything concrete? In my experience, groups of this kind tend to end up arguing within themselves rather than uniting to confront a common 'enemy'.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, a EU-wide minimum wage is a non-starter.
> Do you think your political movement will be able to achieve anything concrete? In my experience, groups of this kind tend to end up arguing within themselves rather than uniting to confront a common 'enemy'.


Weither the group will lead to results in the long haul or in short term is beyond my abilities to predict. Political tendencies are often like waves, a period of right wing success is followed by a period of left wing success and so on. To see the concrete success of the movement in the near or distant future is hard to predict.

I also don't enrole for the sake of that, I mainly want to further expand my political insights and just want to stand up for my ideals. That alone gives me fulfillment, regardless if people will massively start voting left-wing or not. Just doing something idealistic can be very therapeutical, regardless of how many followers you will get. It will surely expand my overall insights in politics, I have been reading so much political literature but nothing beats a real life debate and a study group such as the minority rights group I've requested to join.

In the end the movement I join is not a party. It is a leftist front. Some members are communists, some are eco-leftist, some are social-democrat. We all are leftists, but different members have different accents within the left wing. This means in elections everyone just comes up for their own respective parties. The goal of the movement of course is to enhance cooperation between the different left-wing parties, and in election times the movement will campaign for some of the members regardless of which specific leftist party they are member. The last regional elections in Catalunya the movement has promoted the candidacy of one of the eco-leftist candidates on the list, to give an example.

I don't exclude that I may join a real party in the future, but I first wish to further expand my insight in different issues such as healthcare, minority rights, etc. The study groups of the leftist front are ideal for that. Later on I may make the step towards a real party, but for now I mainly look forward to the many debates and the activities in the study groups.

I've always been on the left wing ever since I developped interest in politics and started to actively debate and read up. So the choice for the leftist movement is a logical one. But I don't want to tag myself as yet as to which specific left wing party I'd like to enrol in, I'd first like to further expand my insight in the objectives and manifest of the different parties on the issues that are of specific concern to me. The movement bringing together the leftist parties is thus very interesting as a starting point. Weither it will lead to later affiliation to a party or not, is something I'm not wishing to predict as yet. First I look forward to exchange ideas and expand knowledge through the working groups. I look forward to it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gerrit said:


> Weither the group will lead to results in the long haul or in short term is beyond my abilities to predict. Political tendencies are often like waves, a period of right wing success is followed by a period of left wing success and so on. To see the concrete success of the movement in the near or distant future is hard to predict.
> 
> I also don't enrole for the sake of that, I mainly want to further expand my political insights and just want to stand up for my ideals. That alone gives me fulfillment, regardless if people will massively start voting left-wing or not. Just doing something idealistic can be very therapeutical, regardless of how many followers you will get. It will surely expand my overall insights in politics, I have been reading so much political literature but nothing beats a real life debate and a study group such as the minority rights group I've requested to join.
> 
> ...



It certainly sounds interesting....keep us informed.


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## pookie123 (Dec 19, 2010)

I have lived and worked in spain for nearly 20 years.Only for the last2 weeks I have been on the sick due to a nervous break down.I have worked for the same company for nearly 3 years and have now been informed they can sack me for being on the sick!!!!! Is this really true' I shall know the companys desicion on tuesday but find this possibility amazing..I shall have to mpve back to UK,


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

See my reply on your other thread.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

The thing is: if you want to hit the dog, you'll always find a stick. Even in countries where laws prevent one being fired for sick leave, the company can always make up some excuse to fire you anyway. Something like bad attitude or bad results, something where it is mainly word against word. As a worker you're facing a maze of bureaucracy then to prove your right.

I have luckily not been in the situation myself but seen it happen with several colleagues (well, ex-colleagues now). It is very serious injustice. I hope for you that things turn out to be OK and wish you a good recovery from the breakdown. Put your health first now, and try (as hard as it is) to not think too much about the rest.


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## pookie123 (Dec 19, 2010)

gerrit said:


> The thing is: if you want to hit the dog, you'll always find a stick. Even in countries where laws prevent one being fired for sick leave, the company can always make up some excuse to fire you anyway. Something like bad attitude or bad results, something where it is mainly word against word. As a worker you're facing a maze of bureaucracy then to prove your right.
> 
> I have luckily not been in the situation myself but seen it happen with several colleagues (well, ex-colleagues now). It is very serious injustice. I hope for you that things turn out to be OK and wish you a good recovery from the breakdown. Put your health first now, and try (as hard as it is) to not think too much about the rest.


Thank you..I shall keep you informed.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2010)

***off topic, but related*** 
Regarding workers' rights, there will be a strike in some of the major stores in Bilbao (the famous seven Zara shops, H&M, Massimo Dutti and other Zara-owned brands) on Dec. 23 and 24 as well as the major rebajas kick off day of January 7. 

Also, they just cancelled the metro strike which was supposed to take place over the course of this week. 

Interesting times in Bilbao!


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *
> The European Parliament is discussing today the possibility of cutting some workers rights. They have agreed that all workers should have equal rights concerning salaries, working conditions, social security, training, and safety. However today, they are looking at rights concerning pensions, housing, scolarships, grants and education.
> 
> *
> ...


interesting concept. it could negate the influx of financial asylum seekers, and redress the local balance,where local workers are squeezed out by migrants, who work for a a lower wage and displace locals.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> interesting concept. it could negate the influx of financial asylum seekers, and redress the local balance,where local workers are squeezed out by migrants, who work for a a lower wage and displace locals.




In theory, yes. But the problem for the UK and to a lesser extent Spain is that the Single European Act prevents restrictions on the flow of citizens of EU states within the Union.
Although the UK has belatedly imposed some controls on citizens of the newer EU member states it is in fact difficult if not downright impossible to prevent Bulgarians or Romanians entering as 'tourists' then seeking work.
The 'influx of financial asylum seekers' is a myth. Asylum seekers do not receive large cash handouts, far from it. They are housed mainly in dilapidated council housing blocks that no-one wants to live in and I think I'm right in saying they subsist on vouchers or receive a very small allowance, depending on their status. Asylum seekers cannot of course engage in paid employment. No-one is entitled to NI based benefits until they have worked and accumulated sufficient contributions to qualify.
The real problem is not that of 'asylum seekers' but illegal immigrants and legitimate EU migrants. Employers connive at employing illegals for obvious reasons - think back to Morecombe Bay - and many immigrants from former Soviet bloc states are willing to work for reduced wages which when sent home and transferred into zloty or whatever are big money.
Although that may be changing as the value of sterling plummets...


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

I have followed this thread with interest, before we emigrated I worked in germany started as a lowly gastarbeiter long before the EU, when your residency permit was controlled by the whims of the employer,over my 20 years in germany as worker and as management ,I have always believed in a full days work for a full days pay, but the unions misuse of their power and control of the workers causes the most trouble, as a young man I worked in a shipyard as a labourer, in a lunch break an electrician drilled a hole through a wooden cabin door frame to put a cable through, after lunch when every one came back to work a carpenter saw what had been done he called his union rep who ordered an on the spot strike, until the poor electrician just getting on with his job was sacked, look back on the miners strikes in uk the only people who did not suffer were the union reps, let the european parliament sought out the laws , maybe then the flood of people drawing social security and all the benefits in UK , from working in spain and portugal and france ,as cash in hand bar and hotel staff, housesitters and in many other jobs, a better control of workers in and out of UK seems to be what everyone is scared of!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> I have followed this thread with interest, before we emigrated I worked in germany started as a lowly gastarbeiter long before the EU, when your residency permit was controlled by the whims of the employer,over my 20 years in germany as worker and as management ,I have always believed in a full days work for a full days pay, but the unions misuse of their power and control of the workers causes the most trouble, as a young man I worked in a shipyard as a labourer, in a lunch break an electrician drilled a hole through a wooden cabin door frame to put a cable through, after lunch when every one came back to work a carpenter saw what had been done he called his union rep who ordered an on the spot strike, until the poor electrician just getting on with his job was sacked, look back on the miners strikes in uk the only people who did not suffer were the union reps, let the european parliament sought out the laws , maybe then the flood of people drawing social security and all the benefits in UK , from working in spain and portugal and france ,as cash in hand bar and hotel staff, housesitters and in many other jobs, a better control of workers in and out of UK seems to be what everyone is scared of!!


I don't think many Germans would agree with your post, which is subjective and anecdotal. I could counter your 'story' with very many instances of unfair treatment of workers by employers. Consider Pookie's situation for a start....she has rightly been advised to approach a union, for who else will stand up for her interests?
After your years in Germany you should be well acquainted with the principle of Mitbestimmung. You should know that German unions are powerful, well-organised in the DGB and have worked with employers to help create Germany's economic prosperity.
All this 'drawing social security and benefits in the UK stuff' is straight from the Daily Mail. Frankly, it's tiresome. It is founded on a slim edge of fact. 
Do you, I wonder, get as worked up by the tax avoidance of people like Topshop etc. owner Green as you do about these phantasmagorical benefit scroungers? Of course they exist but not in the numbers conjured up by the over-feverish imaginations of Maul headline writers.
It's better to have a balanced view.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't think many Germans would agree with your post, which is subjective and anecdotal. I could counter your 'story' with very many instances of unfair treatment of workers by employers. Consider Pookie's situation for a start....she has rightly been advised to approach a union, for who else will stand up for her interests?
> After your years in Germany you should be well acquainted with the principle of Mitbestimmung. You should know that German unions are powerful, well-organised in the DGB and have worked with employers to help create Germany's economic prosperity.
> All this 'drawing social security and benefits in the UK stuff' is straight from the Daily Mail. Frankly, it's tiresome. It is founded on a slim edge of fact.
> Do you, I wonder, get as worked up by the tax avoidance of people like Topshop etc. owner Green as you do about these phantasmagorical benefit scroungers? Of course they exist but not in the numbers conjured up by the over-feverish imaginations of Maul headline writers.
> It's better to have a balanced view.


there literally 1000,s of expats working in europe and still drawing dole in UK, one of the largest housesitting agencies on the algarve is run and staffed by people on the dole from uk,the german unions are very strong and have done a great deal of good, it was the unions in uk I was on about as far as their misuse of power is concerned, as far as everything being based on the slim edge of fact, in my experience the rorters will slowly get caught out as computer trace programs get more advanced,as is happening here in australia as we speak, australian centrelink is working closely with immigration, and if you have not notified them of your overseas journey, all your benefits are are stopped, even aged pensioners (over 65)have to abide by the same rules, but I digress there will always be unjust treatment of employees by bosses, just the same as there will always be bludgers willing to screw the state for as much as they can it is just a fact of life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> there literally 1000,s of expats working in europe and still drawing dole in UK, one of the largest housesitting agencies on the algarve is run and staffed by people on the dole from uk,the german unions are very strong and have done a great deal of good, it was the unions in uk I was on about as far as their misuse of power is concerned, as far as everything being based on the slim edge of fact, in my experience the rorters will slowly get caught out as computer trace programs get more advanced,as is happening here in australia as we speak, australian centrelink is working closely with immigration, and if you have not notified them of your overseas journey, all your benefits are are stopped, even aged pensioners (over 65)have to abide by the same rules, but I digress there will always be unjust treatment of employees by bosses, just the same as there will always be bludgers willing to screw the state for as much as they can it is just a fact of life.


And that is undeniable. But there are probably more tax dodgers than benefit fraudsters. In my view, both are equally reprehensible. I suspect though that much more is stolen by wealthy tax dodgers from the law-abiding British taxpayer who pays up, albeit whilst moaning at their tax burden than are taken illicitly in undeserved benefits.
Yet a certain section of the British public, worked up by some sections of the media, get inmore of a frenzy about single mothers living in big houses with plasma screen tvs etc than they do about the likes of Lord Ashcroft or my favourite villain, Sir Philip Green. Not to mention Mrs. Thatcher's friend Dame Shirley Porter, she of Tesco and Westminster Council fame who daren't visit the UK from her home in Israel as she is subject to an outstanding arrest warrant.
We Brits love to kick those lower on the scale than us whilst licking the boots of the mighty and powerful.
I assume that attitude is not characteristic of egalitarian, republican-minded Aussies.... By the way, British Unions in the '70s and 80s cannot be compared to those of today.
And should not be.


Rereading your post....I doubt whether the agency staff you mention are drawing unemployment pay. One has to sign on and be physically present to do so. Yet another anecdote...what Lynn would, in this case, rightly describe as second-hand tittle-tattle.
There are people here abusing Incapacity Benefit -I know someone who does that. I suppose I could report him to the fraud line but sneaking on someone anonymously is imo rather 'un British'.
As for your suggestion that Australian pensioners would lose their pension if they emigrate...I doubt that as pensions are deferred pay, not a handout.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And that is undeniable. But there are probably more tax dodgers than benefit fraudsters. In my view, both are equally reprehensible. I suspect though that much more is stolen by wealthy tax dodgers from the law-abiding British taxpayer who pays up, albeit whilst moaning at their tax burden than are taken illicitly in undeserved benefits.
> Yet a certain section of the British public, worked up by some sections of the media, get inmore of a frenzy about single mothers living in big houses with plasma screen tvs etc than they do about the likes of Lord Ashcroft or my favourite villain, Sir Philip Green. Not to mention Mrs. Thatcher's friend Dame Shirley Porter, she of Tesco and Westminster Council fame who daren't visit the UK from her home in Israel as she is subject to an outstanding arrest warrant.
> We Brits love to kick those lower on the scale than us whilst licking the boots of the mighty and powerful.
> I assume that attitude is not characteristic of egalitarian, republican-minded Aussies.... By the way, British Unions in the '70s and 80s cannot be compared to those of today.
> ...


What many people don't realise with 'signing on' is that in many rural areas it's not weekly or fortnightly but every 3 months ! Where I lived in Devon , very close to the Somerset border the requirement was every 3 months as it is extremely difficult to get anywhere by public transport. In our village if you were unemployed you had to sign on at the nearest office which was in Wellington in somerset & the bus only went once a week on market day in Taunton . To jobsearch you were required to attend the office in your own county ( who thinks up this nonsense ? ) which was Tiverton & there was no bus from the village in to Tiverton , or anywhere else in Devon unless you walked 3 miles to the next village.
I tend to agree with Nignoy on this one based on the few brits that I've come across here who it turns out are in receipt of some benefit or another.
i've even got a couple who sold up in the uk 13 years ago but used their daughters address as a uk base, built a house here , ran around in new uk car with no tax, etc, until 2008 when they went back to the uk so the husband could have an operation. Whilst there it turned out that they'd put there names down, via the daughters address some years back , for sheltered housing in the re-developed Chatham dockyard . They were interviewed whilst there & not only accepted but referred to the soc. services as they considered the husband needed help & the wife has been awarded carers allowance !! & they still have a 350k house here !!  Shortly afterwards they had to drive back here & the wife forgot her glasses ,so the husband drove all the way !! 
my understanding of incapacity benefit is that similar rules apply as to sickness pay & as Alcaina said in a previous post the rule is you can't be out after 9pm. So how can you be in a foreign country ?
Or the man who retired here & left his business to the sons, nothing to do with him any more , yet regularly receives 5or 10k in sterling from the boys & pays it in to his spanish bank account ? Don't they check, how can you pay in foreign currency , in cash with no one asking questions.
I know at least 3 more that are in receipt of benefits & could go on but it winds me up, to say the least !


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> What many people don't realise with 'signing on' is that in many rural areas it's not weekly or fortnightly but every 3 months ! Where I lived in Devon , very close to the Somerset border the requirement was every 3 months as it is extremely difficult to get anywhere by public transport. In our village if you were unemployed you had to sign on at the nearest office which was in Wellington in somerset & the bus only went once a week on market day in Taunton . To jobsearch you were required to attend the office in your own county ( who thinks up this nonsense ? ) which was Tiverton & there was no bus from the village in to Tiverton , or anywhere else in Devon unless you walked 3 miles to the next village.
> I tend to agree with Nignoy on this one based on the few brits that I've come across here who it turns out are in receipt of some benefit or another.
> i've even got a couple who sold up in the uk 13 years ago but used their daughters address as a uk base, built a house here , ran around in new uk car with no tax, etc, until 2008 when they went back to the uk so the husband could have an operation. Whilst there it turned out that they'd put there names down, via the daughters address some years back , for sheltered housing in the re-developed Chatham dockyard . They were interviewed whilst there & not only accepted but referred to the soc. services as they considered the husband needed help & the wife has been awarded carers allowance !! & they still have a 350k house here !!  Shortly afterwards they had to drive back here & the wife forgot her glasses ,so the husband drove all the way !!
> my understanding of incapacity benefit is that similar rules apply as to sickness pay & as Alcaina said in a previous post the rule is you can't be out after 9pm. So how can you be in a foreign country ?
> ...


Apart from the one individual I mentioned who is married to a local hair stylist I know of no-one who is cheating the DHSS. 
Maybe it's because this is an expensive area to live in and more likely to attract criminals than benefit fraudsters. Probably more tax dodgers round here too.
I read in the local press of a couple of major drug barons from round here who've been arrested and sent to Ireland for trial.
I dislike intensely anyone who cheats, whether through tax evasion or benefit fraud. I assume nignoy feels the same about tax dodgers as he does about benefit crooks....he didn't say.
How do you get to know about these people? Are they daft enough to boast about their cheating


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> How do you get to know about these people? Are they daft enough to boast about their cheating


Some of them I'd done work for & got to know & others are aquaintances of friends , & yes most of them eventually mention these things themselves. My wife goes apoplectic over it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Some of them I'd done work for & got to know & others are aquaintances of friends , & yes most of them eventually mention these things themselves. My wife goes apoplectic over it.


I don't blame her. So would I . How stupid can you get Don't they realise what the rest of us that pay our way think of them?
Just recently I read that a drug dealer had been arrested...he was living a few doors away from us when we were in that apartment complex for a short time...
The GARDA (Irish) were pictured standing in front of what looked like a wall of big packets of heroin. Apparently it was worth several £millions...
Honestly, the company we have to keep here in Spain...
In Prague it was mainly drunks....


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And that is undeniable. But there are probably more tax dodgers than benefit fraudsters. In my view, both are equally reprehensible. I suspect though that much more is stolen by wealthy tax dodgers from the law-abiding British taxpayer who pays up, albeit whilst moaning at their tax burden than are taken illicitly in undeserved benefits.
> Yet a certain section of the British public, worked up by some sections of the media, get inmore of a frenzy about single mothers living in big houses with plasma screen tvs etc than they do about the likes of Lord Ashcroft or my favourite villain, Sir Philip Green. Not to mention Mrs. Thatcher's friend Dame Shirley Porter, she of Tesco and Westminster Council fame who daren't visit the UK from her home in Israel as she is subject to an outstanding arrest warrant.
> We Brits love to kick those lower on the scale than us whilst licking the boots of the mighty and powerful.
> I assume that attitude is not characteristic of egalitarian, republican-minded Aussies.... By the way, British Unions in the '70s and 80s cannot be compared to those of today.
> ...


it is not tittle tattle, I am afraid you are just a little bit blinkered, the housesit agency I mentioned used to manage our holiday home in Val De Lobo in Portugal, I did not mention emigration , my actual statement was if an australian pensioner ,leave australia for any reason and does not get permission from the pension agency first , their pension is stopped !! our appointment with the pension agency is in february , we are hoping to be allowed to fly out on holiday in march, at the moment there is a huge investigation going on over benefit fraud by british and aussie expats in thailand.I honestly dont know whyyou keep bringing up names of the odd famous rich person who has got away with shafting the government, thats all water under the bridge, there are huge headlines over here concerning a Miss Eloise Little, unmarried mother of 4 , in receipt of over 22000pounds a year benefits, complaining that she only had 3000 pounds to pay for xmas presents for her children, my war pension for 85%disability is just over 12000 pounds a year and I get taxed 49 cents on the dollar on that, so even with my disability I retrained worked 32 years in europe before we emigrated, I begrudge every penny paid to the lazy cheating gits that are rorting the system, while pensioners and genuine disabled people get the ****ty end of the stick, what the fatcats get up to does not affect me in anyway, but these other thieving, cheating *******s do

Merry Christmas everyone


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy;426831n said:


> Well, I would say that shows that maybe you are a little blinkered. What the 'fat cats' get up to actually affects more of us than what little Miss X,Y or Z gets. Haven't you heard of the global financial crisis brought about largely by the greed and stupidity of the' fat cats'? The amount taken from the honest taxpayer by multi-millionaire tax dodgers far outweighs the amount taken by benefit cheats. Check it out - there is a lot of independent data on this on the net. But as I said, it's a characteristic of Brits that we kick those we perceive to be beneath us in the social scale whilst licking the boots of those we see as 'superior'.
> One of our least attractive characteristics.
> If Australia treats its pensioners in such a way as you describe,telling them where and when they can travel, it appears a society in this respect somewhat similar to the Soviet Union and I find it hard to believe. As I pointed out, pensions are deferred pay. They are not 'welfare benefits'. They are universal, received regardless of income or status. This is the case in the UK and I would be amazed if this were not so in Australia. It is certainly the case in Canada. Pensioners are free to travel and reside wherever they wish as are we Brits...and why should that not be so? We have worked a lifetime to enjoy our retirement as and where we wish.
> British retired people in receipt of the Statutory Pension can come and go as they please and rightly so. To qualify for benefits such as income support, incapacity benefit etc. there are, also rightly, rules which require residence in your country of origin.
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> .I honestly dont know whyyou keep bringing up names of the odd famous rich person who has got away with shafting the government, thats all water under the bridge, there are huge headlines over here concerning a Miss Eloise Little, unmarried mother of 4 , in receipt of over 22000pounds a year benefits, complaining that she only had 3000 pounds to pay for xmas presents for her children,


Ah....the Daily Mail again...I should have guessed. Try reading a proper newspaper..
Are you really saying that it's OK for the rich to 'shaft the Government' i.e. dodge their legitimate tax liabilities?
It seems from what you saythat I pay a lot more tax than you so should I lie about the income I receive from offshore investments next time I fill in a tax form?
Is 'shafting the government' like that OK?
I could easily do that. Shift the money I have to a jurisdiction with low tax rates and which, unlike the EU, has no obligation to exchange information with the UK tax authorities. There are people posting on this site who are much wealthier than I. Should we advise them to do that?
But although it would benefit me to do so, I won't. Why? Because doing so would imo put me in the same class as those welfare cheats that get you sio steamed up.
I repeat: both are equally reprehensible.
I'll end by quoting Shakespeare:
'Through tattered gowns small vices do appear: plate sin with gold, hides all'.
He knew what he was talikng about, Old Will....


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I would say that shows that maybe you are a little blinkered. What the 'fat cats' get up to actually affects more of us than what little Miss X,Y or Z gets. Haven't you heard of the global financial crisis brought about largely by the greed and stupidity of the' fat cats'? The amount taken from the honest taxpayer by multi-millionaire tax dodgers far outweighs the amount taken by benefit cheats. Check it out - there is a lot of independent data on this on the net. But as I said, it's a characteristic of Brits that we kick those we perceive to be beneath us in the social scale whilst licking the boots of those we see as 'superior'.
> One of our least attractive characteristics.
> If Australia treats its pensioners in such a way as you describe,telling them where and when they can travel, it appears a society in this respect somewhat similar to the Soviet Union and I find it hard to believe. As I pointed out, pensions are deferred pay. They are not 'welfare benefits'. They are universal, received regardless of income or status. This is the case in the UK and I would be amazed if this were not so in Australia. It is certainly the case in Canada. Pensioners are free to travel and reside wherever they wish as are we Brits...and why should that not be so? We have worked a lifetime to enjoy our retirement as and where we wish.
> British retired people in receipt of the Statutory Pension can come and go as they please and rightly so. To qualify for benefits such as income support, incapacity benefit etc. there are, also rightly, rules which require residence in your country of origin.
> ...


Do you think I make up my statements about australian pensioners having to notify the pension agency when leaving the country you know it all arsehole you know nothing , check pensioners rights on the centrelink website, when we returned to australia last year, centrelink cocked up and only registered me as returning to australia and not my wife, with the result my wife lost 4 months medical benefits, in november they admitted their mistake and paid her back the 2872dollars which we had to spend on medication and treatment!!I suggest next time before you open your mouth and openly accuse people of lying you make sure your brain is in gear, I will endevour to pm you with a copy of the appropriate pension law but I really suggest until you know what you are talking about, shut the fxxx up!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Nignoy said:


> Do you think I make up my statements about australian pensioners having to notify the pension agency when leaving the country you know it all arsehole you know nothing , check pensioners rights on the centrelink website, when we returned to australia last year, centrelink cocked up and only registered me as returning to australia and not my wife, with the result my wife lost 4 months medical benefits, in november they admitted their mistake and paid her back the 2872dollars which we had to spend on medication and treatment!!I suggest next time before you open your mouth and openly accuse people of lying you make sure your brain is in gear, I will endevour to pm you with a copy of the appropriate pension law but I really suggest until you know what you are talking about, shut the fxxx up!!


Ever heard of "humbug"??

Come on, lighten up!
Or else Father won't be coming tonight, nor the Wise Men on the 6th...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nignoy said:


> Do you think I make up my statements about australian pensioners having to notify the pension agency when leaving the country you know it all arsehole you know nothing , check pensioners rights on the centrelink website, when we returned to australia last year, centrelink cocked up and only registered me as returning to australia and not my wife, with the result my wife lost 4 months medical benefits, in november they admitted their mistake and paid her back the 2872dollars which we had to spend on medication and treatment!!I suggest next time before you open your mouth and openly accuse people of lying you make sure your brain is in gear, I will endevour to pm you with a copy of the appropriate pension law but I really suggest until you know what you are talking about, shut the fxxx up!!


Now that's shown you in your true colours!!! It's great when people show themselves up as rude and vulgar. Saves others doing it.
Frankly, ever since you posted a load of dangerous claptrap about contraception for cats some time back and referred me to a German kennels who had never heard of you I've had my suspicions about your depth of knowledge. So save your pms.
Now....listen up: UK pensioners can travel where they wish and live where they wish , whether in receipt of local government or state pensions. FACT. I can understand the Australian Government being loath to let people like you out of the country though, at least until you have learnt some basic manners.
Finally: you speak approvingly of 'shafting the government'. It has never obviously occurred to you that the 'government' is not being 'shafted' it's the taxpayer...me, you and every other honest person.
Now...go stuff your turkey.
I'm done with you. I don't debate with people who resort to vulgar abuse when they can't respond to argument.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

For the benefit of the - very few - interested, I found the following from the website for information on Australian pensions:

* If a pension is paid under a social security agreement, the rate outside Australia is governed by that agreement. For most agreements this means a proportional pension rate applies immediately after departure. 

If a pension is payable long-term while absent from Australia, it will generally be paid at a proportional rate. A proportional rate is paid based on a pensioner’s ‘Australian working life residence’. ‘Australian working life residence’ is the period of residence from age 16 to Age Pension age. A person need not have worked or paid tax during this period. All a person needs to have done is to have been an Australian resident. 

A full means tested pension can be paid if a person has Australian working life residence of 25 years (300 months). A proportional pension can be paid for lesser periods. For example, the rate of pension for a man who lived in Australia for 20 years from age 50 to age 70 would be based on Australian working life residence of 15 years (180 months) from age 50 to age 65 (Age Pension age). He could be paid 181/300ths of a means tested pension outside Australia - the extra month is added to all calculations*

It is clear that an Australian citizen who has accrued sufficient contributions can reside outside of Australia, as I thought. There are Australian pensioners living in Spain.
The rules seem remarkably similar to those in the UK.
So, old son, you're not a liar. You just don't understand the rules.
As I thought.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

To further clarify: the Australian Government is proposing a Bill to limit the rights of those receiving Disability Allowances:



*The bill will also include amendments to close a loophole in qualification for disability support pension. This loophole has allowed continued payment of disability support pension to people who live permanently overseas but return to Australia every 13 weeks in order to retain their pension. 

From 1 January 2011, only disability support pensioners permanently residing in Australia will continue to receive the pension, except under limited and specific circumstances. This change will bring disability support pension into line with other workforce age payments. 

Closing this loophole will keep the disability support pension payment system fair and effective. Any pensioners who have a need to travel overseas for short periods will still have access to the 13-week temporary absence rule.*


This seems eminently sensible. It will not, apparently, affect those already living abroad. It brings Australia into line with most other countries.
Australians in receipt of the State Retirement Pension have no restrictions on their travel or place of residence.


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