# Pays de residence fiscale



## calin-m

Bonjour a tous! / Hi, everybody,

Sorry if this was asked and maybe answered before, but could not find something as specific as to what I am being presented, so I am hoping someone here would be kind enough to point me in the right direction.

Background info: arrived in France _*three months ago*_, from the US, married with a French, with retirees status. We opened a bank account with a French institution, and started leveraging the specific account for various purposes (rent, utilities, etc.).

Recent development: while we had no problems opening the bank account using my US passport (and her French one) and the temporary address in France where we found our first place, I just received (my SO did not (yet??)!) a letter in the mail, from the bank, asking me to provide information about my "pays de residence fiscale", as well as an associated NIF ("numero d'identification fiscale"). While I do know that in the long term my residency will be established in France, and my stay in this country will be almost permanent (inclusive of the mandatory 183 days/yr), at this point in time I am still just in the confirmed registered visa long sejour state, with just the OFII interview passed.

Considering all of the above, does anyone have any experience or links providing info to what I should be providing in the pays de residence fiscale and NIF? US and SocSec number? France and the temporary number given with the visa long sejour registration? Else?!? As we both have been employed and worked in the US until mid year, we will certainly have to pay taxes there, for the earned income, but we have not worked and are not planning to work any time soon (if ever) since arriving in France, so the only ties to the French fiscal area at this time is the establishment of the bank account.

On the other hand (sorry for the lengthy message) we would most definitely prefer to establish tax residency in France, as soon as possible, but I am not sure this is the right time (i.e. filing taxes as French tax residents for 2021, in Jan 2022).


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## Bevdeforges

You don't have a choice in the matter. If you are a US citizen you are always and forever "tax resident" in the US - even if you are also tax resident elsewhere at the same time. There is a US-France tax treaty that attempts to shelter you from the worst of any "double taxation" problems - but it's not perfect.

Both you and your wife are already "tax resident" in France based on your intention to remain here (which can be evidenced by your opening of a bank account here). And if the bank account you are opening is a joint account, you will need to report it as such for FBAR purposes to the US (once the total of your overseas bank balances reaches $10,000.

You'll file your first French tax declarations (for 2021) in April or May of 2022. On those you will have to report your worldwide income for the time you have been living in France (i.e. from the date you arrived to 31 December). For your US tax returns for 2021, you report your worldwide income for the entire year - just as you would if you were still living there. First time through it can be a bit daunting, but on the French side it's a fairly logical process (but be very careful to report your foreign income in the appropriate spaces and boxes).


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## bhamham

Give them a W-9 


https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf


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## Peasant

When it comes time to file your first French tax return, you'd do well to get an accountant familiar with people in your situation. We have one, she's fantastic, costs us €400/year and is worth every centime.


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## Bevdeforges

The bank may have its own form that they want you to fill out. I know a few banks here in France have started sending these out to all their customers (even long time customers) with foreign connections of any sort - born elsewhere or other obvious "markers" like that (even with no connection whatsoever to the US). 

Two resources you may want to consult on this: IRS Publication 54 (for "overseas taxpayers" which you and your wife have just become for the US) and AARO - Association of Americans Resident Overseas an association for US expats. AARO runs an annual tax seminar each spring to address issues of US and French taxation for expats. (I think it may be available online - possibly only for members - but there are plenty of AARO members who don't live in the Paris area and who use their membership to keep up to date on these things.)


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## calin-m

Bevdeforges said:


> You don't have a choice in the matter. If you are a US citizen you are always and forever "tax resident" in the US - even if you are also tax resident elsewhere at the same time. <snip>
> 
> Both you and your wife are already "tax resident" in France based on your intention to remain here (which can be evidenced by your opening of a bank account here).


Thank you for the comprehensive reply! So, for the purpose of this specific bank inquiry, and based on the above:
(A-pays de residence fiscale n'attribue pas de NIF a ses residents
B-vous ne pouvez pas obtenir de NIF pour une autre raison (expliquer)
C-NIF n'est pas requis)
is this how it should look like:


Pays de residence fiscaleNIFSi le NIF n'est pas disponible, indiquez Motif A, B, CUSAUS Soc Sec numberFranceN/ANot yet available due to no taxes yet filed in France



> And if the bank account you are opening is a joint account, you will need to report it as such for FBAR purposes to the US (once the total of your overseas bank balances reaches $10,000.


Edit:
Is this FBAR required as soon as the account reaches/surpasses $10K, or at the filing taxes time, in the US (by April 15)?
Sorry for the noise :-( I just RTFM: "When to File
The FBAR is an annual report, due April 15 following the calendar year reported"

Thanks again!!


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## calin-m

bhamham said:


> Give them a W-9
> 
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf


Isn't this for US based organisations only?


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## bhamham

calin-m said:


> Isn't this for US based organisations only?


Maybe, but it's what my French bank wanted.


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## calin-m

Peasant said:


> When it comes time to file your first French tax return, you'd do well to get an accountant familiar with people in your situation. We have one, she's fantastic, costs us €400/year and is worth every centime.


Would you mind sharing contact info, if possible? Thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

calin-m said:


> Isn't this for US based organisations only?


No - the form never goes in to the IRS - it is retained by the bank and needs to be available should the IRS ever decide to audit the bank's compliance with the FATCA rules. They are only required to collect that information from their customers with "US indici" (i.e. those who "might" be US citizens or otherwise subject to US tax rules) so the US form is "handy" simply because it already exists.

The banks here often have their own forms because similar information is now required by the EU and general international banking rules that require exchange of information on foreigners with bank accounts in the country.


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## Bevdeforges

calin-m said:


> Would you mind sharing contact info, if possible? Thanks!


Best to share this sort of thing using PMs (Called "Conversations" in the account information section of the forums here.)


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## Froggie06

calin-m said:


> Would you mind sharing contact info, if possible? Thanks!


Wouldnt mind too thanks


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## jweihl

Write yourself a note on how you do this, as once you file your French taxes, and are issued your NIF, you're supposed to contact your bank and update their records. When I got my NIF, I messaged my bank "counselor" with the new NIF. He sent new blank forms to fill out and sign and thanked me for updating them.

Also, banks may, at the same time request that you fill out more detailed information regarding your finances as part of their "know your customer" documentation requirements. Nothing too onerous, but still a bit of a hassle.


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