# Newbie with questions!



## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

Hello - I'm new to these forums and have lots of questions!

I'm a British expat living in the Bahamas with my husband and children. I am planning to move to Almeria with my children and my husband will stay in the Bahamas to work but visit us regularly.

He is self-employed in the Bahamas. We do not pay income tax here but pay duty on everything we buy (a loaf of bread is around $4, for example).

I work online (I have a few websites) and earn an income of around £500 per month.

Here's what I think I understand so far...

Even though my husband would not live in Spain and would probably reside there for far less than 183 days per year, he would still be considered a resident and therefore liable for Spanish tax on his earnings in the Bahamas...?

He is also self employed so would also have to pay the €250 autonomo payment for self employed people...?

I, as an online worker, would also be liable for tax and the €250 autonomo payment (which would represent almost half my monthly earnings)..?

Am I correct in my thinking? Thanks for any advice


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Pretty much correct although I am not certain about the autonomo since you could (and maybe should) register in Spain as a new company and therefore take advantage of the initial 6 month autonomo payment of €50 a month, rising to €120 a month before hitting €260 a month. You are certainly correct in assuming your husband would be considered as tax liable in Spain as he would be supporting you and your children. There are others on here who understand the ramifications of tax here far better than I do, but should you move here you should employ a good accountant to help with your tax affairs.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

As far as I know if you and your children are resident in Spain then on the 184th day your husband becomes a resident automatically for tax purposes and is liable for Spanish income tax on his worldwide income! (We are due to pay between 43 & 47% on the income my husband earns in Angola, suffice to say our time in Spain is on countdown!). Best of luck to you.


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## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

thrax said:


> Pretty much correct although I am not certain about the autonomo since you could (and maybe should) register in Spain as a new company and therefore take advantage of the initial 6 month autonomo payment of €50 a month, rising to €120 a month before hitting €260 a month. You are certainly correct in assuming your husband would be considered as tax liable in Spain as he would be supporting you and your children. There are others on here who understand the ramifications of tax here far better than I do, but should you move here you should employ a good accountant to help with your tax affairs.


Thank you, I didn't realize that there were lower payments for new companies. That makes a big difference!


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## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

angil said:


> As far as I know if you and your children are resident in Spain then on the 184th day your husband becomes a resident automatically for tax purposes and is liable for Spanish income tax on his worldwide income! (We are due to pay between 43 & 47% on the income my husband earns in Angola, suffice to say our time in Spain is on countdown!). Best of luck to you.


And does your husband actually reside in Angola for more than 183 days per year? Because on some sites I'm reading that worldwide income is NOT taxable if your spouse can PROVE residence in a non tax haven country for more than half the year. My husband would be living in the Bahamas for MORE than 183 days per year and the Bahamas has recently been removed from Spain's list of 'tax havens'. I didn't see Angola on the list of tax havens either....


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Not in Spain as far as I know. If he is supporting you here for more than 183 days and you are resident, he will be liable for tax on his income. Many people live here with a partner working abroad and are unaware that that is the situation. I know of two couples who were badly stung when the tax authorities found out, in spite of their genuine ignorance.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

You hubby could be on the moon! & as long as you are still his legal spouse and / or his children as still his dependants residing in Spain on the 184th day of YOUR stay he becomes a tax resident. 
I have gone through the whole thing with a fine tooth comb, we have a Spanish accountant here who has told us the same. 
I am also now communicating with another British family (currently expat in another EU country) who asked the same questions as you on this forum as they were also planning a move to Spain. We have been sharing info that we have collected from Spanish & UK accountants & lawyers as well as hear say from work colleagues etc. 
Our conclusions so far have been the same. As such we are leaving Spain as soon as our daughter finishes her A levels, and the other family may not be coming. 
Her husband, like mine, works in Africa on 28 / 28 rotation. Those countries, although not classed as tax havens, do not have a double taxation treaty with Spain either.


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## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

angil said:


> You hubby could be on the moon! & as long as you are still his legal spouse and / or his children as still his dependants residing in Spain on the 184th day of YOUR stay he becomes a tax resident.
> I have gone through the whole thing with a fine tooth comb, we have a Spanish accountant here who has told us the same.
> I am also now communicating with another British family (currently expat in another EU country) who asked the same questions as you on this forum as they were also planning a move to Spain. We have been sharing info that we have collected from Spanish & UK accountants & lawyers as well as hear say from work colleagues etc.
> Our conclusions so far have been the same. As such we are leaving Spain as soon as our daughter finishes her A levels, and the other family may not be coming.
> Her husband, like mine, works in Africa on 28 / 28 rotation. Those countries, although not classed as tax havens, do not have a double taxation treaty with Spain either.


Thank you. This makes it incredibly difficult, doesn't it? We were planning on leaving the Bahamas because it's such an incredibly expensive place to live. But if my husband's earnings in the Bahamas are taxed, then we'd have that much less to live on in Spain anyway, probably leaving us no better off.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

You need to see if there is a taxation treaty between Spain and the Bahamas. In most cases you cannot be taxed twice on an income. So if it turns out that Spain is where you are taxed and if a treaty exists, then he won't be taxed in the Bahamas.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

thrax said:


> You need to see if there is a taxation treaty between Spain and the Bahamas. In most cases you cannot be taxed twice on an income. So if it turns out that Spain is where you are taxed and if a treaty exists, then he won't be taxed in the Bahamas.


Thrax, they don't pay tax in the Bahamas.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

angil said:


> You hubby could be on the moon! & as long as you are still his legal spouse and / or his children as still his dependants residing in Spain on the 184th day of YOUR stay he becomes a tax resident.
> I have gone through the whole thing with a fine tooth comb, we have a Spanish accountant here who has told us the same.
> I am also now communicating with another British family (currently expat in another EU country) who asked the same questions as you on this forum as they were also planning a move to Spain. We have been sharing info that we have collected from Spanish & UK accountants & lawyers as well as hear say from work colleagues etc.
> Our conclusions so far have been the same. As such we are leaving Spain as soon as our daughter finishes her A levels, and the other family may not be coming.
> Her husband, like mine, works in Africa on 28 / 28 rotation. Those countries, although not classed as tax havens, do not have a double taxation treaty with Spain either.



Angil, thanks for this post, it's good to have it from the 'horse's mouth.'


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

edmelissa said:


> Thank you, I didn't realize that there were lower payments for new companies. That makes a big difference!


You'll need to read the full details about the reduced autonomo payments- there is a link here on the forum somewhere. I think only apply if you are aged under 30 (you maybe are!) and if it doesn't work out you have to repay the difference between the reduced and full payments.

As Angil says, if you and the kids are resident in Spain, your husband will be deemed to have his centre of interest in Spain and therefore be liable for tax on his worldwide earnings. 

If you tried to avoid this scenario, you may get away with it for a while but could be hammered when the authorities caught up with you- and money is tight in Spain, they will be coming after every penny they can get!

I doubt your earnings alone would be deemed enough for you and the kids to become resident, so you would struggle going down that sort of avenue, to avoid bringing your husbands existence to light.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

We are simply going to leave!! Arrived May 2013 & we will leave Summer 2015. We will pay our dues and go! Spain's loss unfortunately. As we currently pay over the odds for everything here incl rent, electricity, private schooling for the kids and private healthcare! Giving far more than we are actually receiving from Spain! 

& You could become resident by dumping around €18,000 in a Spanish bank account for you and 2 kids (around €6000 per person) & producing proof you had private health insurance for the 3 of you. Not mention hubby or work contracts of any description. & see how it goes?!

Actually I have not needed my NIE (residency number) for anything here. Got an apt, health ins, school places and non residency Spanish bank account all just with a passport.

When the stores need ID when I use my debit card they won't accept my NIE 'card' as it has no photo on it so I need to carry my passport anyway.

But I wouldn't be able to sleep nights diddling the tax man!! So everything will be legal and above board until we leave!


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

angil said:


> We are simply going to leave!! Arrived May 2013 & we will leave Summer 2015. We will pay our dues and go! Spain's loss unfortunately. As we currently pay over the odds for everything here incl rent, electricity, private schooling for the kids and private healthcare! Giving far more than we are actually receiving from Spain!
> 
> & You could become resident by dumping around €18,000 in a Spanish bank account for you and 2 kids (around €6000 per person) & producing proof you had private health insurance for the 3 of you. Not mention hubby or work contracts of any description. & see how it goes?!
> 
> ...


I just read somewhere else that a lump sum wasn't being accepted, it had to be regular money every month, which the wife would then have to pay tax on if it was her "income." But more to the point, that income would come from hubby, hubby exists, he can be found by the authorities through these payments, through the wifes and kids info when they register as resident........all just becomes dodgy, and definitely illegal as hubby would be avoiding paying his taxes. As angil says, can't sleep at night type stuff! Might work for a while but when your caught........

NIE/ Residencia would be needed to acces state schools or healthcare..... and whether needed or not, they are a legal requirement.


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## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

> You'll need to read the full details about the reduced autonomo payments- there is a link here on the forum somewhere. I think only apply if you are aged under 30 (you maybe are!) and if it doesn't work out you have to repay the difference between the reduced and full payments.


Oh dear  No, I'm not under 30, so back to square one there.



> We are simply going to leave!! Arrived May 2013 & we will leave Summer 2015. We will pay our dues and go! Spain's loss unfortunately. As we currently pay over the odds for everything here incl rent, electricity, private schooling for the kids and private healthcare! Giving far more than we are actually receiving from Spain!
> 
> & You could become resident by dumping around €18,000 in a Spanish bank account for you and 2 kids (around €6000 per person) & producing proof you had private health insurance for the 3 of you. Not mention hubby or work contracts of any description. & see how it goes?!
> 
> ...


No, I wouldn't be able to sleep either! Not trying to do anything illegal, just trying to work out if this move is going to be worth it. I'm really starting to wonder. 



> I just read somewhere else that a lump sum wasn't being accepted, it had to be regular money every month, which the wife would then have to pay tax on if it was her "income."


Just wondering where you read that. Presumably I wouldn't be paying the tax - he'd be paying as he's be classed as a resident. But I have to register as a resident after living in Spain for 3 months - and I doubt we'll even start monthly payments by then - he'll probably spend the first few weeks with me anyway. So I'm not sure how I'd prove this monthly "income". I'm starting to feel pretty negative about this move - I don't want to uproot my 4 children from their home then be told we can't stay in Spain


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

edmelissa said:


> Oh dear  No, I'm not under 30, so back to square one there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You wouldn't be paying tax on your hubbies income if he is resident and paying the tax. That was just a scenario if you tried to be resident without him.

To become resident in Spain, all EU nationals have to satisfy certain conditions - i.e. prove they have healthcare and sufficient funds to prevent them becoming a burden on Spain - and you have to do so within 90 days of arrival.

There are several ways of doing this.

1. Have a contract of employmnent, pay your tax and social security in Span, State healthcare is only available if you pay social security.
2. Become self employed - your autonomo is your social security. You do actaully have to run a comapny, pay taxes, issue invoices, etc.
3. Prove you have private healthcare and sufficient funds going regularly into a Spanish bank every month. This is generally around 600euros /month/ person. I thought you had 2 children but if you have 4 kids + 2 adults, you need around 600euros/ month. Different areas vary slightly, some ask for savings on top of this. Private healthcare could be a sizeable outgoing for 6 people, I would guess.

You should read the FAQ thread where there is lots of info like on the practicalities. You also need to check the tax rate your husband would be on.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

P.S.you can't be kicked out of Spain with your kids, you'd just be living illegally!

If, when you have done more research, and decide to move, you would just have to be organised and prepared to make your residency application when your husband is around. Prior to that, probably just before you actually move, you would have opened a non residents bank account and started monthly payments to prove your family's income.


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## edmelissa (Mar 29, 2014)

brocher said:


> You wouldn't be paying tax on your hubbies income if he is resident and paying the tax. That was just a scenario if you tried to be resident without him. To become resident in Spain, all EU nationals have to satisfy certain conditions - i.e. prove they have healthcare and sufficient funds to prevent them becoming a burden on Spain - and you have to do so within 90 days of arrival. There are several ways of doing this. 1. Have a contract of employmnent, pay your tax and social security in Span, State healthcare is only available if you pay social security. 2. Become self employed - your autonomo is your social security. You do actaully have to run a comapny, pay taxes, issue invoices, etc. 3. Prove you have private healthcare and sufficient funds going regularly into a Spanish bank every month. This is generally around 600euros /month/ person. I thought you had 2 children but if you have 4 kids + 2 adults, you need around 600euros/ month. Different areas vary slightly, some ask for savings on top of this. Private healthcare could be a sizeable outgoing for 6 people, I would guess. You should read the FAQ thread where there is lots of info like on the practicalities. You also need to check the tax rate your husband would be on.


Wow - so the amount required for the children is the same as the adults? That seems such a huge requirement - we live far more frugally than that! Also - regarding the Autonomo - if you do actually have to run a company etc ( which I don't, I'm just an individual working for myself online, and neither does my husband, he works alone as a handyman in the Bahamas) then does that mean we are NOT entitled to social security benefits? Then are we not required to pay the Autonomo payment... Do we fall under some other classification than self employed?

Sorry for so many questions! This thread has been a (depressing) eye opener for me!


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

If the €6000 per person rule has changed that's quite a 'biggy' any confirmation please? 

That amount in a Spanish bank account is (was?) per person incl children. We needed in excess of €20,000 for the 4 of us. It is a one off thing and once proof is given at your residency application the funds can be moved elsewhere.

But if that has changed............................then would I be correct in assuming the threshold is €600 per person (residency applicant) per month paid into a Spanish bank account as proof of income?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

angil said:


> If the €6000 per person rule has changed that's quite a 'biggy' any confirmation please?
> 
> That amount in a Spanish bank account is (was?) per person incl children. We needed in excess of €20,000 for the 4 of us. It is a one off thing and once proof is given at your residency application the funds can be moved elsewhere.
> 
> But if that has changed............................then would I be correct in assuming the threshold is €600 per person (residency applicant) per month paid into a Spanish bank account as proof of income?


the only way to be absolutely certain is to ask at the _extranjería _where you'll be registering

local interpretation of the exact financial requirements do vary


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