# Declaracion de la renta 2014(it's not that hard is it)



## Cappa (Apr 11, 2011)

Hello there,

Oh how lovely and extremely convoluted it seems to be doing taxes here in Spain. I think I know the answer(but it's worded so terribly) I have my doubts.



> en este caso, la suma de las cantidades percibidas del segundo y siguientes no podrá superar los 1.500 euros, es decir, la práctica totalidad de los pluriempleados deberá cumplir con la AEAT. Si se supera esa cifra los ingresos totales por el rendimiento de trabajo deberán ser inferiores a los 11.200 euros. Por ejemplo, una persona que haya cambiado de empresa a mitad de año pero que no supere la renta de 22.000 euros estará casi con total seguridad obligada a declarar si ha cobrado más de 1.500 euros de la segunda empresa y ha percibido más de 11.200 euros en todo el ejercicio. En este punto, conviene aclarar que los pagos de la Seguridad Social (como por ejemplo la prestación por desempleo) tienen la consideración fiscal de segundo pagador a efetos fiscales, con todo lo que esto implica.


So if I understand correctly in simple terms if I made less than 22,000 last year, and my other jobs either 1)don't surpass 1.500 indivually and 2)don't surpass 11.200 combined I'm in the clear?

I made roughly 5,000 in one job, and in the other two 530 + 386 which is about 920 so I don't have to declare? I hope.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Cappa said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Oh how lovely and extremely convoluted it seems to be doing taxes here in Spain. I think I know the answer(but it's worded so terribly) I have my doubts.
> 
> ...


Did you know you can go to your local tax office and they will fill in your tax form with you?
If I didn't have an OH who knows his way around taxes I'd be down there in a flash.
As it is I'm waiting for my tax rebate to be paid into my account 
Or maybe they're going to ask me to re present papers like they did last year


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## Cappa (Apr 11, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Did you know you can go to your local tax office and they will fill in your tax form with you?
> If I didn't have an OH who knows his way around taxes I'd be down there in a flash.
> As it is I'm waiting for my tax rebate to be paid into my account
> Or maybe they're going to ask me to re present papers like they did last year


Yes, I was hoping I didn't have to waste a day but I made a cita previa.... it was all booked up until June 4th.. at least they have afternoons available which shocked me lol

Better to be safe than sorry I guess, but I've heard people going to Agencia Tributaria and still getting screwed by Hacienda lol


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Cappa said:


> Yes, I was hoping I didn't have to waste a day but I made a cita previa.... it was all booked up until June 4th.. at least they have afternoons available which shocked me lol
> 
> Better to be safe than sorry I guess, but I've heard people going to Agencia Tributaria and still getting screwed by Hacienda lol


Screwed in what way? They had to pay tax on something they thought they could get away with??
Yes, you're right about it taking up your time, but if you've got an appointemnt you shouldn't have to wait around too long. I think I may just be lucky, but my local office has changed a lot over the years and is quite well run now.
Oh I've just remembered, it's moved to another town, Hope it's still running as well as it was by the time I next visit!


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

I used to do my own tax return. Then I discovered the banks will do it free, so I used my bank for a couple of years. I also did a couple pf returns at the tax ofice, but even they got the return wrong ! 

Now I use a gestor. She charges 50 euros and probably will make ‘less mistakes’ than the bank, Hacienda or me. It is close by and I can get an appointment within a couple of days.

As Pesky says, having to pay some tax is not being screwed.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We use a gestor too, and he only charges €20. Basically we hand over all the paperwork and he goes to Hacienda on our behalf. The first year, we came out in credit because he arranged a refund of the tax on our savings interest. 

This year will be a bit more complicated because I'm now getting a UK state pension which I guess will be taxed here. Does anyone know what papers are needed? Or do I just total up the amount received in 2014?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> We use a gestor too, and he only charges €20. Basically we hand over all the paperwork and he goes to Hacienda on our behalf. The first year, we came out in credit because he arranged a refund of the tax on our savings interest.
> 
> This year will be a bit more complicated because I'm now getting a UK state pension which I guess will be taxed here. Does anyone know what papers are needed? Or do I just total up the amount received in 2014?


I put all ours into a spreadsheet and hand it to the gestor!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Cappa said:


> Hello there,
> 
> Oh how lovely and extremely convoluted it seems to be doing taxes here in Spain. I think I know the answer(but it's worded so terribly) I have my doubts.
> 
> ...


It's less than 22,000 if you only had one employer. If you had two or more, and these combined (not individually) add up to more than 1,500 you have to declare and in this case, the limit is 11,200. In any case, you total amount is less, so you don't have to declare, but you may be entitled to a rebate in which case it's worth doing the draft and then you can decide whether or not to present it


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> We use a gestor too, and he only charges €20. Basically we hand over all the paperwork and he goes to Hacienda on our behalf. The first year, we came out in credit because he arranged a refund of the tax on our savings interest.
> 
> This year will be a bit more complicated because I'm now getting a UK state pension which I guess will be taxed here. Does anyone know what papers are needed? Or do I just total up the amount received in 2014?


I too have an OAP credited by DWP 4 weekly to my Spanish bank. I add up those payment (so the rate on that day) and submit that as a total to my Gestor. I then show other income, bank interest etc which I have received in pounds and convert it at the rate for that year. I use the rate as at midnight on 31st Dec but others say you can also use the average rate over that year.

Apart from your NIE you do not need (I never have) any other paperwork. The Return is signed by you and is your self assessment.

In my case, we also have to pay 'imputed tax' as we own a property in Philippines which is occupied by wife's family.. That of course applies to property in any country, it must be declared.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

PS I was not ermitted to edoit my post, so:-

The last sentence should have read:- 

In my case, we also have to pay 'imputed tax' as we own a property in Philippines which is occupied, rent free, by wife's family. That tax of course applies residents with property in any country; it must be declared. 

For that tax we use 50% of the purchase price (as cadastral valor does not exist)
x 1.1% x 24.75 % = tax due


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> I put all ours into a spreadsheet and hand it to the gestor!


Which is exactly what I do - plus handing over copies of IBI payments, savings interest, etc. etc.


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> We use a gestor too, and he only charges €20. Basically we hand over all the paperwork and he goes to Hacienda on our behalf. The first year, we came out in credit because he arranged a refund of the tax on our savings interest.
> 
> This year will be a bit more complicated because I'm now getting a UK state pension which I guess will be taxed here. Does anyone know what papers are needed? Or do I just total up the amount received in 2014?


We had our cita previa at the Tax Office yesterday, and for the first time had to declare an OAP Pension. I just listed, handwritten, the 4 weekly amount received into the Spanish Bank in euros, with a total amount, which the Tax Office accepted. Apart from the amount of tax we have to pay, a simple and easy process.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

In the 27 years I have been in Spain, declaring the OAP has always been a requirement for a tax resident.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

larryzx said:


> In the 27 years I have been in Spain, declaring the OAP has always been a requirement for a tax resident.


Has it not crossed your mind that they may have only started to receive an OAP in 2014 and that is why it had to be declared for the first time? My OH is in exactly that position and we too have arranged a cita previa online to go to Hacienda to make the declaration.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

anles said:


> It's less than 22,000 if you only had one employer. If you had two or more, and these combined (not individually) add up to more than 1,500 you have to declare and in this case, the limit is 11,200. In any case, you total amount is less, so you don't have to declare, but you may be entitled to a rebate in which case it's worth doing the draft and then you can decide whether or not to present it


Anyone eligible for the double taxation treaty is not able to use the 22k limit either, which means all early non working retirees and state pensioners


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Has it not crossed your mind that they may have only started to receive an OAP in 2014 and that is why it had to be declared for the first time? My OH is in exactly that position and we too have arranged a cita previa online to go to Hacienda to make the declaration.


To me it was ambiguous, thus to avoid any misunderstanding by others who may be interested I made my post. Sorry if that offended you Lynn


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Anyone eligible for the double taxation treaty is not able to use the 22k limit either, which means all early non working retirees and state pensioners[/QUOTE
> 
> If you actually want to make a claim for double taxation then clearly you have to make a return. Just being eligible is not strictly correct. Sorry if I'm being pedantic about the word eligible.
> 
> To be precise, it is important to remember that the 22k limit requires that the income has already been taxed at source.


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## Cappa (Apr 11, 2011)

anles said:


> Cappa said:
> 
> 
> > Hello there,
> ...



Thanks I figured as much and yes I should get 120 euros back if the borrador is correct. Do I have to file though if this is my first year in spain as a resident? I am a citizen of spain but I've lived and worked all my life in the US up until last year


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

OK, silly question - if your pension is taxed in the UK, do you have to mention it in the IRPF declaration? Similarly with tax retained on interest from UK accounts?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, silly question - if your pension is taxed in the UK, do you have to mention it in the IRPF declaration? Similarly with tax retained on interest from UK accounts?


I think the answer is yes, and yes. All pensions other than Crown pensions must be declared as taxable income in Spain, and any tax already paid on them in the UK also shown on the return which is offset against the amount of Spanish tax due. I had thought that Crown pensions which are only taxable in the UK had to be declared on this year's tax returns, but more recently have seen articles which say that they must be declared in 2016 as the new DT treaty only became law on 1 January 2015 so it relates to income received in 2015 (including an article in this week's press by David Searl). So for the 2015 Renta declarations to be made in 2016, Crown pensions must be declared in a separate category for "rentas exentas".


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, silly question - if your pension is taxed in the UK, do you have to mention it in the IRPF declaration? Similarly with tax retained on interest from UK accounts?


As I have always understood it you cannot choose where you pay tax. 

Only Crown Pensions are taxable in UK, and that is only in UK, and until next year’s declaration are ignored by Hacienda. All other income (letting income excepted) must be declared and taxed in Spain.

I understand you must inform HMRC that you live in Spain and then it will be paid gross. If you do not do so then the fact you have paid tax in UK does not mean you are except from the obligation to do so in Spain. Thus you could end up paying tax twice.

If you cannot avoid bank, building Society etc. stopping tax on interest (NS & I too) then you must claim in back from HMRC as it must be declared, the gross amount, in Spain.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

A PS to my last post:- 

Extract from:- Double tax treaty between Spain and the UK

_There is one exception to this general way of handling UK pension income once you are Spanish resident and that is government pensions, or Crown Pensions as they are known. The treaty says that pensions paid to civil service employees should be taxed in their home country regardless of where the receiver lives. Up until 2014, they do not have to be declared if the receiver becomes tax resident in another country. (See update below regarding 2015).
_


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

larryzx said:


> As I have always understood it you cannot choose where you pay tax.
> 
> Only Crown Pensions are taxable in UK, and that is only in UK, and until next year’s declaration are ignored by Hacienda. All other income (letting income excepted) must be declared and taxed in Spain.
> 
> ...


Sorry - could you explain "(letting income excepted)" please.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> Sorry - could you explain "(letting income excepted)" please.


I understand the DTA between UK and Spain says tax on letting income must be paid in UK. I also undertand it must then be declared in Spain, as there might be an additional amount to pay here.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I think the answer is yes, and yes. All pensions other than Crown pensions must be declared as taxable income in Spain, and any tax already paid on them in the UK also shown on the return which is offset against the amount of Spanish tax due. I had thought that Crown pensions which are only taxable in the UK had to be declared on this year's tax returns, but more recently have seen articles which say that they must be declared in 2016 as the new DT treaty only became law on 1 January 2015 so it relates to income received in 2015 (including an article in this week's press by David Searl). So for the 2015 Renta declarations to be made in 2016, Crown pensions must be declared in a separate category for "rentas exentas".


Thanks for the clarification, thanks also to Larry. I have found a form R43 to claim back the tax retained on our UK savings interest in 2014, and will tell the bank not to retain tax in 2015 because we want to pay it in Spain.

For the IRPF I will total up my state pension plus our occupational pensions as income to be taxed here, and OH's teacher's pension, which he started getting in April 2014 and which has been taxed in the UK, goes into the_ rentas exentas_ category.

OK, easy peasy.


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I think the answer is yes, and yes. All pensions other than Crown pensions must be declared as taxable income in Spain, and any tax already paid on them in the UK also shown on the return which is offset against the amount of Spanish tax due. I had thought that Crown pensions which are only taxable in the UK had to be declared on this year's tax returns, but more recently have seen articles which say that they must be declared in 2016 as the new DT treaty only became law on 1 January 2015 so it relates to income received in 2015 (including an article in this week's press by David Searl). So for the 2015 Renta declarations to be made in 2016, Crown pensions must be declared in a separate category for "rentas exentas".


This is correct Lynn for UK Nationals, however for Spanish Nationals, who receive a Crown Pension from the UK, this is taxed in Spain. OH has this problem, and therefore pays far more tax than a UK person resident in Spain?? Maybe he should have obtained British Nationality before we came to live here!!!!


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

larryzx said:


> I understand the DTA between UK and Spain says tax on letting income must be paid in UK. I also undertand it must then be declared in Spain, as there might be an additional amount to pay here.


The way it works is that you must declare the UK rental income in Spain (there are generous allowances) and pay all the tax due. Any tax paid in the UK on the rental income can be offset in Spain. We rent our UK house but there is no UK tax due as the UK tax free allowances exceed our net rental income. We must however make a declaration to HMRC each year.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> The way it works is that you must declare the UK rental income in Spain (there are generous allowances) and pay all the tax due. Any tax paid in the UK on the rental income can be offset in Spain. We rent our UK house but there is no UK tax due as the UK tax free allowances exceed our net rental income. We must however make a declaration to HMRC each year.


I had a suspicion you only asked me to clarify so you could tell me I was wrong.


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

larryzx said:


> I had a suspicion you only asked me to clarify so you could tell me I was wrong.


I don't actually think you were wrong. Your wording is correct, I was just wanting to clarify by our particular example.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chica22 said:


> This is correct Lynn for UK Nationals, however for Spanish Nationals, who receive a Crown Pension from the UK, this is taxed in Spain. OH has this problem, and therefore pays far more tax than a UK person resident in Spain?? Maybe he should have obtained British Nationality before we came to live here!!!!


Perhaps the future inclusion of Crown pensions for the purposes of calculating someone's marginal rate of tax will go a little way towards correcting this unfairness.

It did always seem strange to me that someone who receives a Crown pension from the UK, plus a state pension and perhaps other private pensions too, should benefit from two sets of personal allowances - and that's speaking as someone who will, in 2016, receive a Crown pension in addition to my existing company one.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Perhaps the future inclusion of Crown pensions for the purposes of calculating someone's marginal rate of tax will go a little way towards correcting this unfairness..


I will have had 28 years of 2 allowances so I am not crying. 

PS But when did 'fairness' have anything to do with paying taxes ? 

Only one who has limited knowledge of tax laws could believe that, and I say that as someone who two sons in UK both accountants. One son told me recently that in UK one can liquidate a business and choose to pay a flat rate of 10% in tax. That is just one of the huge savings / avoidance of tax not available to the average Joe public..


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## jimkennedy (Jul 19, 2010)

Quick follow-up question - I just did my DdlR 2014 and I walked out with a stack of documents that were numbered 0 to 3 and 12 to 16. There was no 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, or 11. 

Is that correct? 

Jim.


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

The complete tax form as contained on the PADRE program has some 63 pages but it only prints out the pages that you enter information into. My return for example prints out pages 1-4 and 12-16. I would not worry.


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## jimkennedy (Jul 19, 2010)

Ah, Ok, that makes sense .Thanks for the clarification.


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## calpeflyer (Mar 29, 2013)

Re Dave and Anne Galicia recent comment - what are the allowances ( in Spain ) before Tax on a property rented out in the UK ? We are below the UK Tax Threshold but maybe not here in Spain.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

calpeflyer said:


> Re Dave and Anne Galicia recent comment - what are the allowances ( in Spain ) before Tax on a property rented out in the UK ? We are below the UK Tax Threshold but maybe not here in Spain.


You need to declare ALL UK rental income.

When this is lumped together with any (all) other income, then the allowances can be used and any tax calculated.


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## calpeflyer (Mar 29, 2013)

OK - got that.
Only income is rent from UK house ( mortgage free but with insurance and maintenance contract)
No pensions yet.
House is in joint names - any idea of what calculations are involved ?


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## StewartL (Sep 5, 2013)

calpeflyer said:


> OK - got that.
> Only income is rent from UK house ( mortgage free but with insurance and maintenance contract)
> No pensions yet.
> House is in joint names - any idea of what calculations are involved ?


This is good Web page to give you some sound advice. 

http://www.advoco.es/advice/8-personal-tax/75-taxation-of-rental-properties-in-spain.html

As for the joint names the means that each resident will declare their % ownership on the tax form and the system will calculate thir share of gross income and costs. The percentage ownership is general equal shares unless specifically denoted in the and registry.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

calpeflyer said:


> OK - got that.
> Only income is rent from UK house ( mortgage free but with insurance and maintenance contract)
> No pensions yet.
> House is in joint names - any idea of what calculations are involved ?


The basic allowance before you pay tax on your income is about €5,500 per person - more if you are over 65 or have dependent children. So if your net annual income from the rental is less than this (x 2 if there are two of you) you shouldn't be liable for tax in Spain.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> The basic allowance before you pay tax on your income is about €5,500 per person - more if you are over 65 or have dependent children. So if your net annual income from the rental is less than this (x 2 if there are two of you) you shouldn't be liable for tax in Spain.


... best to ask an advisor whether it would be better, in your circumstances, to do a joint tax declaration or two separate ones - we do a joint one.


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## calpeflyer (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks folks


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

Hmmm interesting - my understanding from both HMRC and the Haçienda was that rental income earned in the UK should be paid in the UK, but also declared in Spain, but deducted in the 'tax paid in other countries' (or whatever the box is called) to avoid dual taxation. I'm tax resident in Spain.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

samthemainman said:


> Hmmm interesting - my understanding from both HMRC and the Haçienda was that rental income earned in the UK should be paid in the UK, but also declared in Spain, but deducted in the 'tax paid in other countries' (or whatever the box is called) to avoid dual taxation. I'm tax resident in Spain.



Correct - IMHO.


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## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes correct. As you are tax resident in Spain you declare the UK rental income in Spain as part of your total worldwide income. The UK rental income must also be declared in the UK and any resultant UK tax paid can be deducted on the Spanish tax return under the DTA. Whilst it is a requirement to declare the UK rental income in the UK it often results in no tax being due as the UK personal tax free allowance exceeds the net taxable rental income.


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