# Questions regarding US Citizens becoming expats



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Unfortunately, moving to Spain for an American can present with unique issues and questions. Over a decade ago I started using this forum and others for information on this process. This forum has been very helpful. However, there is still a miniscule amount of Americans here compared to British and others. Since Brexit, there is more of a similarity between British and American expats yet differences in the expatriation process still exist. 

I’ve started other pages since for American expats but this page still attracts many who are seeking information. I got a wild hair to set up a sub category post here for Americans on this page. I’m no expat sage but am very invested in the people-helping-people concept. Because, one can’t keep something unless they don’t give it away.

This idea may die here but I’d at least like to give it a shot first.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Elyles said:


> Unfortunately, moving to Spain for an American can present with unique issues and questions. Over a decade ago I started using this forum and others for information on this process. This forum has been very helpful. However, there is still a miniscule amount of Americans here compared to British and others.* Since Brexit, there is more of a similarity between British and American expats yet differences in the expatriation process still exist.*
> 
> I’ve started other pages since for American expats but this page still attracts many who are seeking information. I got a wild hair to set up a sub category post here for Americans on this page. I’m no expat sage but am very invested in the people-helping-people concept. Because, one can’t keep something unless they don’t give it away.
> 
> ...


I'm curious as to what you consider the differences to be? The only one I can think of is geographical proximity. The visa application process is exactly the same now.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

I mean, speaking as an American...

Yeah, certainly pre-Brexit there were a lot of difference. Yes, it gets a little tedious, whenever you go onto an English speaking expat forum, it's dominated by Brits. But that's just he lay of the land. There are other English speaking forums (on other subjects) where Yanks dominate - I'm sure other English speakers roll their eyes over that.

But post-Brexit, what process differences are there? In terms of Spanish red-tape, it should be the same. Maybe the process of getting your documents will be a little different. The logistics of the move might be different. Tax considerations might be different. Of course, there are going to be cultural differences leading to different experiences...

But since there are more than six times as many Brits in Spain, doesn't it make sense that they would dominate any forum on the subject? I think we just have to suck it up.

But if you have a question that is specific to Americans, just ask it and make it clear that you are talking about a situation unique to Americans.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Elyles said:


> Unfortunately, moving to Spain for an American can present with unique issues and questions. Over a decade ago I started using this forum and others for information on this process. This forum has been very helpful. However, there is still a miniscule amount of Americans here compared to British and others. Since Brexit, there is more of a similarity between British and American expats yet differences in the expatriation process still exist.
> 
> I’ve started other pages since for American expats but this page still attracts many who are seeking information. I got a wild hair to set up a sub category post here for Americans on this page. I’m no expat sage but am very invested in the people-helping-people concept. Because, one can’t keep something unless they don’t give it away.
> 
> ...


I think it is a very good idea to at least have a thread relating to issues facing Americans. In another thread you had recommended to Americans to read the Instructions to IRS Form 8802. Yesterday, I spend some time reading the instructions and thank you very much for pointing this out. The main takeaways I came away with is that-

-Form 8802 does not help you if you are a United States LLC disregarded as an entity separate from its owner.

-Form 8802 appears to help a lot for US trusts, IRA distributions, pension from and exempt organization, benefit plan trusts and a C, S or LLC company taxed in the United States as a corporation.

Does this jive with your read? These is no mention of social security payments, as a result, I imagine it is taxable in Spain. Thank you very much for posting.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

timwip said:


> I think it is a very good idea to at least have a thread relating to issues facing Americans. In another thread you had recommended to Americans to read the Instructions to IRS Form 8802. Yesterday, I spend some time reading the instructions and thank you very much for pointing this out. The main takeaways I came away with is that-
> 
> -Form 8802 does not help you if you are a United States LLC disregarded as an entity separate from its owner.
> 
> ...


Yes, SS is taxable yet the question I’ve had relates to government pensions not being taxed


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

ksjazzguitar said:


> I mean, speaking as an American...
> 
> Yeah, certainly pre-Brexit there were a lot of difference. Yes, it gets a little tedious, whenever you go onto an English speaking expat forum, it's dominated by Brits. But that's just he lay of the land. There are other English speaking forums (on other subjects) where Yanks dominate - I'm sure other English speakers roll their eyes over that.
> 
> ...


I don’t know, We’ve been here almost ten years


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Elyles said:


> Yes, SS is taxable yet the question I’ve had relates to government pensions not being taxed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Look at Article 21 paragraph 2 of the 1990 treaty. A pension for government service is only taxable in the contracting state which gives you the pension unless  you are both a resident and national of Spain. As a result, unless you have taken on Spanish citizenship, I think it is only taxed in the United States. For example, my wife has a govenment pension from the United States; however, since she is a Spanish citizen, she must pay Spanish taxes.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

timwip said:


> Look at Article 21 paragraph 2 of the 1990 treaty. A pension for government service is only taxable in the contracting state which gives you the pension unless  you are both a resident and national of Spain. As a result, unless you have taken on Spanish citizenship, I think it is only taxed in the United States. For example, my wife has a govenment pension from the United States; however, since she is a Spanish citizen, she must pay Spanish taxes.


Correcto! We pay taxes on SS in the US. I asked la jefa


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Elyles said:


> Correcto! We pay taxes on SS in the US. I asked la jefa
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am no expert; however, SS is not a pension based upon government service. As a result, SS tax should be first paid in Spain. For example, if you had pension from a State for being a school teacher and you were not a Spanish citizen, then no Spanish taxes would be owed.


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## RickES (Jan 26, 2021)

Elyles said:


> Unfortunately, moving to Spain for an American can present with unique issues and questions. Over a decade ago I started using this forum and others for information on this process. This forum has been very helpful. However, there is still a miniscule amount of Americans here compared to British and others. Since Brexit, there is more of a similarity between British and American expats yet differences in the expatriation process still exist.
> 
> I’ve started other pages since for American expats but this page still attracts many who are seeking information. I got a wild hair to set up a sub category post here for Americans on this page. I’m no expat sage but am very invested in the people-helping-people concept. Because, one can’t keep something unless they don’t give it away.
> 
> ...


I have been thinking the same as there are numerous questions that arise, or info I would love to see shared that apply to emigrating from the US. Understandably, there are more British folks on forums like these, but many of the posts (outside of actual visa info) does not pertain and (sorry folks) gets a bit boring after awhile. No offense, but I don't want to necessarily read another post about a Brit not being able to swap their driving licenses. I understand that it is an unfortunate situation, but it really has little to no bearing on anyone from the US.

All this to say, I would welcome a US-centric sub-forum.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

RickES said:


> but many of the posts (outside of actual visa info) does not pertain and (sorry folks) gets a bit boring after awhile


Maybe I've been using the forum wrong. It never occurred to me that I was required to read every post. Here I've been ignoring the 95% that don't interest me.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

I talked to an accountant today who seemed to be in the know about Form 8802. She said that Form 8802 is a unilateral (US) determination of residency for certain investments and sources of income not explicitly covered in the tax treaty, Spain often does not agree.... Just adding for what it´s worth.


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## RickES (Jan 26, 2021)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Maybe I've been using the forum wrong. It never occurred to me that I was required to read every post. Here I've been ignoring the 95% that don't interest me.


It never occurred to me that a snarky response was required to every post that I don't agree with.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

And it never occurred to me that someone would not understand that forums are not required to only show things in which they are interested. I guess we both learned something. (But really, "every" - I'd love to see your data on that.) I am not "bored" by the things that don't apply to me because I don't read them. It's easy - that part where you read it, just don't do that. There, problem solved. I also don't care about professional sports - I don't complain that my news feed has sports news - I just ignore it. It's easy, just try it.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

An interesting thing I learned yesterday is that in almost all cases, a married couple should file income tax returns separately in Spain but together in the US. This is perfectly acceptable.

In Spain, the standard deduction for filing alone is 5500 €. However, if you are married and filing jointly, the deduction only goes up by 3400€. As a result, the only time it may be better is if the lower earning person earns less than 3400€. However, the Covid stimulus checks that US citizens received tax free in the US are taxable in Spain. The stimulus checks alone almost get the lower earning person half way to that threshold. In the US, the standard deduction for filing alone is $12,550 while it doubles to $25,100 filing jointly. As a result, it appears that the Spanish system favors only when there is one wage earner from a married couple while the US system is good for both cases.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

ksjazzguitar said:


> And it never occurred to me that someone would not understand that forums are not required to only show things in which they are interested. I guess we both learned something. (But really, "every" - I'd love to see your data on that.) I am not "bored" by the things that don't apply to me because I don't read them. It's easy - that part where you read it, just don't do that. There, problem solved. I also don't care about professional sports - I don't complain that my news feed has sports news - I just ignore it. It's easy, just try it.


In January of this year, you were posting that you had moved to Barcelona; however, your profile now says "moving to Barcelona in Summer 2022" and your IP address is from the United States. What happened?


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

We bumped up the move date as my wife was having increasing job troubles in the States because of Covid and our rent was being increased and my wife got her Italian passport faster than expected - it seemed like the universe was telling us to just go. I haven't looked at my profile so I didn't know to update it. My IP address may be whatever because I have to use a VPN for work - usually it is set to the States. But we've been in Spain since January 4th. Thank you for your concern.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

ksjazzguitar said:


> We bumped up the move date as my wife was having increasing job troubles in the States because of Covid and our rent was being increased and my wife got her Italian passport faster than expected - it seemed like the universe was telling us to just go. I haven't looked at my profile so I didn't know to update it. My IP address may be whatever because I have to use a VPN for work - usually it is set to the States. But we've been in Spain since January 4th. Thank you for your concern.


During times of Covid, the best news is no news! I am glad you guys are doing fine.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah, we count ourselves lucky. I got my "great paying, work remotely" job at the perfect time. As a former musician, I have a lot of friends who have been really screwed. We're a little behind schedule on our plans to buy a place, but we're still making progress. And at least now I'm in Barcelona. I've even already been to a calçotada_._ I just can't wait until things get back to normal so we can enjoy things to their fullest.


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

I have been to quite a few calçotadas in Tarragona. Ever since I was a kid I loved grilled onions!


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

I too would welcome a US centric sub-forum to discuss some of those more mundane aspects that we have coming from here, and to just have a place where all of us US people can congregate. For example, moving is a non-trivial process - it's not as simple as a removing service from the UK - we have a bit of an ocean to deal with, and over here there are a ton of options for shipping, from having it completely done for you (think Graebel) all the way up to buying your own 20' or 40' container and shipping it with a broker (which I started looking into before COVID ground our plans to a delay).

Another thing is hearing stories from individuals who have navigated the Spanish Consulates - there are a number of them across the US and apparently they all handle things like docs/requirements a little differently than each other.

I will also say that I love this forum - it's the first one I found a few years ago that focused on the Spanish expat experience with an audience that truly shares/communicates. I'm VERY appreciative of this site.

So, current and former US peeps, what say you?


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

We will see what the moderator does; however, I also think it is appropriate. Since the vast majority of the people on this forum are from the UK, there is the tendency for a poster to write about an issue without specifying that it is a UK issue since most everyone is from the UK. As a result, it is sometimes hard for me to determine whether a discussion is relevant to me or not. As an example, there had been a thread about only being able to be out of Spain for a total of 10 months in a five year period. Since I have a five year visa, I was freaking out because I would never have moved here with that limitation (friends, family, work, just getting out of here). I was searching all over for that stipulation and could not find it. As it turns out, that stipulation was in the Withdrawl Agreement; however, it was never specified in the thread. It would probably just be easier to have a sub-forum in order to avoid this confusion.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

ksjazzguitar said:


> And it never occurred to me that someone would not understand that forums are not required to only show things in which they are interested. I guess we both learned something. (But really, "every" - I'd love to see your data on that.) I am not "bored" by the things that don't apply to me because I don't read them. It's easy - that part where you read it, just don't do that. There, problem solved. I also don't care about professional sports - I don't complain that my news feed has sports news - I just ignore it. It's easy, just try it.


I wish I had that gift to ignore news about Trump. For so many years I developed clinical skills to appear interested in some pretty boring stuff said by clients and filter it out from the stuff providing me with useful data. I do the same on forums now. 

I received good clinical training though. One of my clinical supervisors once paraphrased something to me: “When a client directly states to me “I’ll bet I’m really boring you with this stuff.” I say “No, it’s all interesting and pertinent.” While thinking “I have to trim my banzai trees and attend the upcoming dinner with colleague”…. Not giving myself credit for being human too. And I hate all sports dialogues except cycling but the older I get, the more bored I become about it too.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

timwip said:


> We will see what the moderator does; however, I also think it is appropriate. Since the vast majority of the people on this forum are from the UK, there is the tendency for a poster to write about an issue without specifying that it is a UK issue since most everyone is from the UK. As a result, it is sometimes hard for me to determine whether a discussion is relevant to me or not. As an example, there had been a thread about only being able to be out of Spain for a total of 10 months in a five year period. Since I have a five year visa, I was freaking out because I would never have moved here with that limitation (friends, family, work, just getting out of here). I was searching all over for that stipulation and could not find it. As it turns out, that stipulation was in the Withdrawl Agreement; however, it was never specified in the thread. It would probably just be easier to have a sub-forum in order to avoid this confusion.


There are now 380 thousand Brits here and about 40 thousand Americans


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> I'm curious as to what you consider the differences to be? The only one I can think of is geographical proximity. The visa application process is exactly the same now.


I’m curious as to the visa types available. I guess you guys probably copied our system when Brexit passed. I’m sure the taxation is different (a big deal), the writing of testamentos is different due to the different state laws adhering to types of community property, Marriage licenses are different, I assume? Etc. There are many other nit picky differences as well. Also, most Spanish Consulates in the US have different interpretations of immigration law. I recall just before moving here that I needed a Spanish certificate for import of personal items here to avoid VAT. None of the US/Spanish Consulates knew what I was talking about but the US Consulate in Barcelona had the form on file. I continue to find differences, or at least those on my Expatriates page do


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Elyles said:


> I’m curious as to the visa types available. I guess you guys probably copied our system when Brexit passed. I’m sure the taxation is different (a big deal), the writing of testamentos is different due to the different state laws adhering to types of community property, Marriage licenses are different, I assume? Etc. There are many other nit picky differences as well. Also, most Spanish Consulates in the US have different interpretations of immigration law. I recall just before moving here that I needed a Spanish certificate for import of personal items here to avoid VAT. None of the US/Spanish Consulates knew what I was talking about but the US Consulate in Barcelona had the form on file. I continue to find differences, or at least those on my Expatriates page do
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are exactly the same visas as are available to US citizens.

Exactly the same visas are available to all 3rd country citizens, with exactly the same requirements. As far as slight differences in interpretation, it has already been reported that this is happening between the different consulates in the UK.


Marriage & birth certificates have to be apostilled & translated, in the same way as those from the US. 

As 3rd country citizens, the importation of goods from the UK is now treated in the same way as from any other 3rd country, including the US.

There are now absolutely no differences - which has come as a bit of a shock to many British citizens. 


Taxation in Spain is the same for everyone, though income from any country abroad would be according to treaties with individual countries. We have a dedicated tax forum Expat Tax which is largely populated by US citizens.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> They are exactly the same visas as are available to US citizens.
> 
> Exactly the same visas are available to all 3rd country citizens, with exactly the same requirements. As far as slight differences in interpretation, it has already been reported that this is happening between the different consulates in the UK.
> 
> ...


That is due to the very complex Tax Treaty with the US, the S tax form 8802 and corresponding tax residency certificate6116. All this with detailed instructions. The problem with it is that every tax agent in Spain considers themselves experts on the topic and convince their clients that they are the only person who can solve this issue for them. I no longer give information on the Treaty myself albeit from the Spanish Tax authority itself. And, if one does a brief scan of the Tax Treaty on the Internet, it only leads to confusion with tan mucho definiciones 


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Elyles said:


> That is due to the very complex Tax Treaty with the US, the S tax form 8802 and corresponding tax residency certificate6116. All this with detailed instructions. The problem with it is that every tax agent in Spain considers themselves experts on the topic and convince their clients that they are the only person who can solve this issue for them. I no longer give information on the Treaty myself albeit from the Spanish Tax authority itself. And, if one does a brief scan of the Tax Treaty on the Internet, it only leads to confusion with tan mucho definiciones
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's a discussion for our tax forum!


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

I discussed it there years ago. I shy away from tax discussions now


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