# Fuera de Ordenacion.......Advice Needed.



## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Hi All,

We have an offer on a property. We were assured that they had a licence for a pool, and the house was reformed in 2003, making it a larger property. I have yet to see a project licence for the building works, or a licence for the pool.

The seller in the meantime has applied for a....

'Declaration de Obra Nueva' 
'Certificado de Legalidad Urbanistica'

I was advised that the second one could lead to a 'Fuera de Ordenacion' which could lead to restrictions on future building works and improvements, even cosmetic changes.

I have raised this with our abogado, and he seems unperturbed by all of it, just saying that there are 'many ways to make a property legal if the licences can't be proved or obtained'...this attitude has not filled me with confidence!

On the subject of the Fuera de Ordenacion, he stated that all houses in the area we are buying are under a Fuera de Ordenacion!!!

And this was a result of a law passed in 2012,where every Town Hall has to elaborate 
a list of properties in the countryside. Our Town Hall still have not 
elaborated it, so they cannot deliver any certificate in this respect. 
Perhaps in the short future thay ask the owners to prove the antiquety of 
their properties and the conditions of habitability, but he does not know 
when this may happen. In this case we says we have got proof enough of the antiquety of the property.

Should I accept this, or walk away now? This is making me very nervy, especially as they are now pushing for a contract exchange...something I'm refusing to do until I'm 100% sure and happy.

Would it be worth getting the advice of a second lawyer/abogado?

Many thanks.

Steve


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Don't walk...RUN. There are lots of good legal properties for sale. Don't let your heart rule your head. Your Lawyer doesn't sound much good.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I agree with Isobella, I wouldn't have anything to do with it. Your lawyer might be right in that all the houses in your preferred area are Fuera de Ordenacion (which is why it's particularly tricky when you are looking for a property in a rural area rather than a town or village) but that doesn't mean you have to buy one.

As I understand it, if the property is Fuera de Ordenacion it's "semi-legal" at best. It won't be under threat of demolition, but there will be restrictions on what you could do to the property (only repairs and maintenance permitted, I think, no substantial changes to the property) and any measures the lawyers say could be taken to "legalise" the property would come at a not inconsiderable cost to you, don't forget.

Above all, if it is making you nervous now, you have to think about how any future purchaser might feel if you wanted/needed to sell it in the future. Any property with doubts and uncertainties about its legality is always going to be more difficult to get rid of.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

I am feeling jittery, and of course that is not a good sign at all. I'm trying to give the property every chance, but I'm certainly not getting the confidence I need from my abogado. He doesn't seem too worried, and I'm sure he deals with this all the time, but I'm not quite happy with his outlook on it all.

I have emailed them today, stating our concerns, it will be interesting to see their reply.

A last throw of the dice might be seeing another lawyer, but I'm doubting he won't say anything different??


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

StevejR1 said:


> He doesn't seem too worried, and I'm sure he deals with this all the time


At the risk of stating the b******g obvious, it's not his money, is it, so why should he be too worried?

If it costs lots more money in the future in legal fees, that's just more work for him or one of his brethren.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> At the risk of stating the b******g obvious, it's not his money, is it, so why should he be too worried?
> 
> If it costs lots more money in the future in legal fees, that's just more work for him or one of his brethren.


Haha....was that blatantly???? 

In fairness the seller is doing everything to make the property 'legal', and at his cost.....my concern is are we happy with what's left at the end of it.

There is also a Servidumbre (access) issue too....again I think that will be paid for by the seller.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

I'm still trying to research what exactly the 'Declaration de Obra Nueva' and 
'Certificado de Legalidad Urbanistica' are, and why they'd need to be applied for?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Is it a properly qualified Spanish abogado or just a foreigner (brit?) who has set himself up as one? Where did you get him from? The agent, perhaps?

As others have said - walk or run away.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Is it a properly qualified Spanish abogado or just a foreigner (brit?) who has set himself up as one? Where did you get him from? The agent, perhaps?
> 
> As others have said - walk or run away.


The abogado is Spanish, and came recommended by locals via Facebook local groups and Internet forums.....they were recommended by the estate agents too though, which resulted in us trying our utmost to prove them to be unscrupulous. We had ten recommendations for them, and one against....and that one was at the other end of his services, ie dealing with him in a sale, not working for them as a client.

Initially I think he struck us as competent. And generally I think he is trying to get everything in order. The problem is what is acceptable to us, and what is acceptable to them in a purchase. I'm trying not to be too 'stiff Brit' in all this, but also trying to keep our eyes wide open! At the moment my instincts are not good


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Steve we've had info on these half legal houses. Yes no chance of bulldozers but restrictions that wouldn't be good for my peace of mind.

However having a spanish wife and family I'm very conscious of how they view these things as opposed to Brits. It was like the recent thread on licences - they laughed at the more extreme expat examples.

Yes there is a Spanish way and a Brit way. But you have to hold your ground I believe as while _*'in rome do as the romans do' *_does hold some water you also must consider which country is bust and which one is doing OK.

I'd not walk away but make it clear you will start looking elsewhere and instruct your lawyer to not create any further expense until a clean bill of health can be presented (i.e everything on your need list has been met and is visible). Without that then no exchange.

Be assured I'm nervous and I have bought before and have an army of Spaniards I can throw into battle. I remember when a bank in Spain tried to delay my incoming money. When my PP supporting sister-in-law went at them I thought there would be blood on the floor. An hour later the money was released and casualties kept to a minimum . So don't be afraid of standing your ground with big vocals when required - the spanish understand physical threats :boxing:

But for what it is worth I have my fingers crossed for you :fingerscrossed:


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Sign the pre-contract with clauses in hand that are very specific about what you want and how the property should be, all licenses obtained, no FdOs, demolition orders, debts or other infractions.
Make sure it is extremely detailed and clear that failure to supply the property as you want will result in a breach of contract by the seller and you are entitled to twice your deposit back.
Either they will agree to sign a modified contract or they wont.
Even if they do you don't have to sign it but it needs to be on the table at least.
Then you will get a feel for just how legal they intend the property to be.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

alborino said:


> Steve we've had info on these half legal houses. Yes no chance of bulldozers but restrictions that wouldn't be good for my peace of mind.
> 
> However having a spanish wife and family I'm very conscious of how they view these things as opposed to Brits. It was like the recent thread on licences - they laughed at the more extreme expat examples.
> 
> ...


Thank you Alborino, for a very balanced reply.

I'm trying my best to not be inflexible, because things are not as cut and dried as they should be, or as they are in the Uk. I realise I'm a stranger in a strange land here, and I have to be adaptable....but I've also not got to be naive....it's the getting the balance right.

I sent an email to the abogado the other day...the first salvo...I received a reply with a lot of my questioned answered, but I was not that happy with what the answers were!

Yesterday I received a letter discussing exchanging of contracts. So today I sent an email not far from your suggestion. I was frank, to the point, and even a bit curt...but I have laid down what I'm not happy about, and what I require to proceed, and made it clear that I wouldn't proceed until we were happy. I will fly out to see him if necessary, and do it face to face.

I'm a bit worried about this 'semi-legal' status, and I'm now wondering how widespread that situation is?

The whole process of buying in Spain has been a learning curve...and we continue to learn...we were just hoping the legal process might have been a little less stressful!!


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Sign the pre-contract with clauses in hand that are very specific about what you want and how the property should be, all licenses obtained, no FdOs, demolition orders, debts or other infractions.
> Make sure it is extremely detailed and clear that failure to supply the property as you want will result in a breach of contract by the seller and you are entitled to twice your deposit back.
> Either they will agree to sign a modified contract or they wont.
> Even if they do you don't have to sign it but it needs to be on the table at least.
> Then you will get a feel for just how legal they intend the property to be.


From what I'm led to believe there is no chance of there not being an FdO on the property, as the whole area has them inflicted on them.

I have still to see the 'promised' licence for the pool....and I've never even been promised the licence for the reform project!

I feel reluctant to sign anything at this stage, as I feel closer to pulling out than committing a lot of money to the property, so for now I will just see what the abogado's response is, and take it from there. I am very tempted to instruct another lawyer, but I'm not sure how messy that would get?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

If it's FDO then another Lawyer won't help, no one can change that.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Isobella said:


> If it's FDO then another Lawyer won't help, no one can change that.


I realise that...but houses still sell in the area...in fact recently I've seen more houses sold in this area, than any of the other areas we have looked at in our search......so people must be accepting it?!? Or is it not as big deal as I think?...or the limitations so great as I'm led to believe?


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

I have received a reply from the abogado......

He is basically saying that 99% of all properties in rural areas are included as Fuera de Ordenacion in Andalucia, and the only way around it is to buy a property that is classed as urban. Is this really true?

He is also stating that the Town Hall have no issues with reclassifying unlicensed building works and improvements under the 6 year law, so long as the building works are investigated to be in good condition. This is basically a method to make unlicensed/illegal properties legal...and that is my issue. If the licence had been applied for then at least the works would have been legal, as it is it is a technical loophole, and I'm worried that the 6 year law could be rescinded in the future?


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## Katerine (Sep 5, 2021)

Hi Steve,
I read the discussion you started in 2015.
Would you tell us what happened in the end? Did you buy? Or did you find out anything else?
I have just let a property go because of the same reason. It was lovely but I was too nervous. It cost me €€€€ in lawyer fees to find out that it was fuera de ordenacion and the habitation certificate was outdated (from 2011, before the new law). Furthermore, I read that no bank will grant a mortgage on a property under Fuera de Ordenacion, which for me was reason enough to not sign the arras contract. After me, who would/could buy it?


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