# Natural Justice



## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

Guys , I just got into high stress when i received this Email from Case Officer entitling "Natural Justice"
as per him , the Officers tried reaching my previous employer and my previous CEO said that he doesnt know me at all 
Well , the Case Officer has told me that you have to comment on the odd things that came up in the verification process.

*so I gave him the following reasons:*
Its just that i quitted my previous job not at pretty good note, i.e. i didnt serve the standardized notice-period of a month so the CEO guy was in a revenge-mood with me.

*Fact:*
Plus his company went close back in mid 2013, and i was working there till 'second last month', he wanted me to keep going till the last day, but i had got a job oppurtunity which i couldnt miss.

The better point for me is that I spoke a day back to my previous CEO and things went settled between us, so I emailed Case Officer that my issues with previous CEO has been resolved, and that you can call them back to verify me and that my CEO should be verifying me now.

its been 4 days now since i sent this email, but havent got any reply from him.

do you guys feel like i should be getting a postive responce any sooner?

or should i be adding anything to make my case look stronger.

Awaiting replies
thanks


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## Gandhara (Oct 2, 2013)

Monster, could you please publish your timeline so that we know more about your situation. Have you completed your medicals etc? 

There is another fellow forum member who went through a situation similar to yours and ultimately got his/her grant. Try searching the forum for his/her posts.


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## v_yadav (May 21, 2012)

What did the CO meant by titling it "Natural Justice"?


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

v_yadav said:


> What did the CO meant by titling it "Natural Justice"?


 They think he is lying and commiting visa fraud. They are giving him opportunity to comment. 

Do you not have paper evidence of having worked in the company?


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## tipzstamatic (Aug 13, 2013)

_shel said:


> They think he is lying and commiting visa fraud. They are giving him opportunity to comment. Do you not have paper evidence of having worked in the company?


Oh I see.
Weird though that they'd call CEO and not HR first. And to term it "revenge-mood" I guess is not very appropriate...

Do they always call for verification _shel? Or is it case to case? Now I'm worried when I do get my invite and apply that my current company will be called and my plans will be busted....


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Mostly yes, they sometimes go out and visit too. They expect lots of paper evidence of employment and if genuine means they do not need to phone or visit. If you cant provide it or it doesnt appear genuine they need to double check your claims. 

Evidence is job offer letter, employment contract, pay slips, tax documents, employer references.


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## praveenreddy (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi friends,

I have undergone the same situation in the month of January. My CO has sent me the Natural Justice letter on the adverse information they received about my claims and given 28 days time to respond for that I have replied them accordingly and got my visa grant last week. 

Guys who got N J letter need not get worried instead try to think how to respond by giving more and more evidence to show them that what ever you have claimed in the application are genuine. 

My sincere suggestion is donot panic and send unnecessary replies to co as it may give adverse affect on your file.

Wishing you a very best of luck to those guys who are in Natural Justice boat. 

Regards,
Praveen Reddy


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Thank you Praveen, very true it isn't always something to be worried about. It often means you sent little evidence which is hard to verify. Find more and send it to them.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

praveenreddy said:


> Hi friends,
> 
> I have undergone the same situation in the month of January. My CO has sent me the Natural Justice letter on the adverse information they received about my claims and given 28 days time to respond for that I have replied them accordingly and got my visa grant last week.
> 
> ...


if u went into NJ , how is the case going at the moment for you?
did u reply them with any more evidence ? i already had provided them my payslips/reference letter when filing my visa of the employer (the one they raised issue on)

should i be adding more evidences ? as i said ; the company has closed down and its hard for me to get anymore evidences.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

tipzstamatic said:


> Oh I see.
> Weird though that they'd call CEO and not HR first. And to term it "revenge-mood" I guess is not very appropriate...
> 
> Do they always call for verification _shel? Or is it case to case? Now I'm worried when I do get my invite and apply that my current company will be called and my plans will be busted....


my CEO was the one leading the HR , so all the documents had his signature as Senoir HR admin. ; because it was an small frame company and mainly two-three designations are held by the CEO.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

guys the NJ letter states pretty clear that you have to COMMENT ON THE ADVERSE INFORMATION FOUND , so do i have to provide documents on it as well?


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## v_yadav (May 21, 2012)

monster said:


> guys the NJ letter states pretty clear that you have to COMMENT ON THE ADVERSE INFORMATION FOUND , so do i have to provide documents on it as well?


provide all the information and all the documents you can to support your information.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

_shel said:


> They think he is lying and commiting visa fraud. They are giving him opportunity to comment.
> 
> Do you not have paper evidence of having worked in the company?


i had already provided them my reference letters/pay slips for that employer when filed my visa.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

monster said:


> if u went into NJ , how is the case going at the moment for you?
> did u reply them with any more evidence ? i already had provided them my payslips/reference letter when filing my visa of the employer (the one they raised issue on)
> 
> should i be adding more evidences ? as i said ; the company has closed down and its hard for me to get anymore evidences.





monster said:


> i had already provided them my reference letters/pay slips for that employer when filed my visa.


 You need to write a statutory declaration addressing the points they have raised in detail. If there is reason for the guy to lie explain why. All very business like and factual. 
If you provided pay slips already can you supply bank statements for the period? Would you have any letters from them about anything at all from when they employed you? 
Provide contact details of the guy and any old work colleague that may stand up for you. 

Then leave it with the CO until they get back to you. But reply before the date given.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

_shel said:


> You need to write a statutory declaration addressing the points they have raised in detail. If there is reason for the guy to lie explain why. All very business like and factual.
> If you provided pay slips already can you supply bank statements for the period? Would you have any letters from them about anything at all from when they employed you?
> Provide contact details of the guy and any old work colleague that may stand up for you.
> 
> Then leave it with the CO until they get back to you. But reply before the date given.



i have already emailed him back in plain text describing why would he lie , still my matters with CEO have been settled so i asked Case Officer they can call my CEO back if they want.
Secondly , are you sure if i should be writing statutory declaration , since i wrote all the points in the email , discussing each and every point he wanted me to address.
Next thing , i was provided salary in cash - whose salary slips i had already attached in my visa case. (Plus the Reference letter/JD letter I had attached along with my Pay slips)
Also , I have told Case Officer that I can provide other colleague's contact details, I havent provided in the email yet. (thought I should better wait for Case Office's reply) ; should I go ahead and put my colleague's number in there?

btw thanks for the helpful reply


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Your case officer probably wont reply. They have asked you to comment and after the date they gave you to reply by they will use the additional information you provided to make a decision. You will hear from them when that decision is made so it is up to you to choose how to reply. If you are satisfied with what you have put in that email do nothing. If you think you do more to prove your case, do it. 

There are no clear directions from DIBP on how you respond, that choice is yours.


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## Hunter85 (Dec 5, 2013)

may i ask if you have claimed points for that job? I also have lack of documentation for my previous job and I am not claiming any job related points at all. Will they ask evidence or will they call my previous employer?


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## tipzstamatic (Aug 13, 2013)

monster said:


> i have already emailed him back in plain text describing why would he lie , still my matters with CEO have been settled so i asked Case Officer they can call my CEO back if they want.
> Secondly , are you sure if i should be writing statutory declaration , since i wrote all the points in the email , discussing each and every point he wanted me to address.
> Next thing , i was provided salary in cash - whose salary slips i had already attached in my visa case. (Plus the Reference letter/JD letter I had attached along with my Pay slips)
> Also , I have told Case Officer that I can provide other colleague's contact details, I havent provided in the email yet. (thought I should better wait for Case Office's reply) ; should I go ahead and put my colleague's number in there?
> ...


i think the statutory declaration is just a show of intent that you have done your statements under the witness of a lawyer or some office that could attest to the truth of your statements. so in effect, youre getting your statements certified. it will also build a stronger case to erase doubt if the other documents you present are certified true copy. in that way, there will be no doubt on CO's mind that everything is truthful...otherwise, because your CEO lied, the CO may just think that he's lying again if he's supposed to suddenly claim you were an employee...so why would the CO think someone who lied previously (your CEO) is telling the truth now....that sort of thinking


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

Hunter85 said:


> may i ask if you have claimed points for that job? I also have lack of documentation for my previous job and I am not claiming any job related points at all. Will they ask evidence or will they call my previous employer?


yeh i did claim points for that job , btw if you got documents lacking i would suggest not to go for the additional pts (if you are already reaching the passable mark).
They could ask employer , or anything which they feel the documents are lacking.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

tipzstamatic said:


> i think the statutory declaration is just a show of intent that you have done your statements under the witness of a lawyer or some office that could attest to the truth of your statements. so in effect, youre getting your statements certified. it will also build a stronger case to erase doubt if the other documents you present are certified true copy. in that way, there will be no doubt on CO's mind that everything is truthful...*otherwise, because your CEO lied, the CO may just think that he's lying again if he's supposed to suddenly claim you were an employee...so why would the CO think someone who lied previously (your CEO) is telling the truth now....that sort of thinking*


First off ,when i was filing my visa ; the employer which is under verification ; i had provided certified true copies of the docs. explaining my employemnt.

the point which i m highlighting of yours; i had already explained. That my CEO had lied because i'd quit job not at a very good note. But now i have issues settled with my CEO , thats the reason why CEO shd be verifying me as his previous employee now.


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## HFZ (Feb 9, 2013)

My Dear,

By repeating your same point of view you unfortunately had undermined *SUPERB ADVICE.*

1. *Statuary Declaration*
2. *MORE* evidence whatever

Are you damn sure that your ex-CEO will be able to mend the situation?????

Bro, take charge of the situation yourself and furnish SD and more info as advised wisely.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

can anyone guide me on how to structure that statutory declaration


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## HFZ (Feb 9, 2013)

Wish you goodluck bro.

Be confident and supply maximum evidences...May God help you.


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## warlock233 (Sep 3, 2013)

Monster, what happened afterwards? Let us know how this ended!


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

a denial!
hoping to go to MRT now


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## warlock233 (Sep 3, 2013)

Wow, that's sad to hear.
Was it specifically because of this fact?

Wish you good luck with MRT.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

what fact are you addressing to?


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## warlock233 (Sep 3, 2013)

the one you stated when you opened the thread - your employment information.


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## monster (Aug 18, 2012)

yep , my CEO even emailed my CO but ; CO wasnt in mood of approving.
I feel it all a money game inspite of being a transparent process; since MRT also needs money from you.


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## sunnyboi (Jul 10, 2013)

monster said:


> a denial!
> hoping to go to MRT now


Wow! Don't know how I missed this thread and sorry to hear about your denial. What is MRT and how do you plan to take it up from there? Should help others, if possible.


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## lovetosmack (Apr 22, 2013)

Guess "migration review tribunal".


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## Guest (May 17, 2014)

monster said:


> First off ,when i was filing my visa ; the employer which is under verification ; i had provided certified true copies of the docs. explaining my employemnt.
> 
> the point which i m highlighting of yours; i had already explained. That my CEO had lied because i'd quit job not at a very good note. But now i have issues settled with my CEO , thats the reason why CEO shd be verifying me as his previous employee now.


Just curious - what supporting documents you provided to prove your claim for the company in question before and after NJ was asked for.

AFAIK - offer letter, salary slips, bank statement, stat and self declaration with company id card or business card, tax documents (if received) is more than enough to prove your claims. If i qoute my case, i have provided bank statements mostly for all the employers that i have been with, clearly indicating the company's name in salary credit transaction also my employee id mentioned for one of my employer.

I mean these are strong proofs unless CO might have have found few documents manipulated or not justifying your employment claims to raise concerns.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Most people have nothing to worry about even if you have an evil ex manager. 

If you have paper evidence and these and your presence can be checked via government (in relation to taxes), ex colleagues (they often just approach them without telling you), neighbouring businesses and companies they work alongside you have nothing to fear. 

1 evil ex manager who gives a bad reference or refuses to speak with DIBP truthfully is only one tiny part of their verfification process.


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## sameer7106 (Apr 16, 2014)

*sal paid in cash*



_shel said:


> Mostly yes, they sometimes go out and visit too. They expect lots of paper evidence of employment and if genuine means they do not need to phone or visit. If you cant provide it or it doesnt appear genuine they need to double check your claims.
> 
> Evidence is job offer letter, employment contract, pay slips, tax documents, employer references.


Dear Shel,

if someone gets paid in cash and does not fall under Indian tax bracket then in that case how the applicant will show his/her tax return?? Do they always ask for tax return or it depends upon case to case. I guess applicant can show the vouchers of being getting paid for last 6 months, will it be suffice??

Regards


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Generally you should file taxes anyway even if no tax is due. You need to prove you do not need to pay taxes and as it was cash and no deductions from employer that means you do it  

Note this us a legal requirement in most countries. If you get to Australia they will give you a huge fine if you do not file your taxes even if you had nil income.


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## Guest (May 17, 2014)

sameer7106 said:


> Dear Shel,
> 
> if someone gets paid in cash and does not fall under Indian tax bracket then in that case how the applicant will show his/her tax return?? Do they always ask for tax return or it depends upon case to case. I guess applicant can show the vouchers of being getting paid for last 6 months, will it be suffice??
> 
> Regards


In that case TDS certificate would suffice but normaly companies dont provide this certificate unless asked for. Salary slips and bank statement are enough.


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## lovetosmack (Apr 22, 2013)

sameer7106 said:


> Dear Shel,
> 
> if someone gets paid in cash and does not fall under Indian tax bracket then in that case how the applicant will show his/her tax return?? Do they always ask for tax return or it depends upon case to case. I guess applicant can show the vouchers of being getting paid for last 6 months, will it be suffice??
> 
> Regards


Wether you fall under the tax bracket or not, you should file your taxes showing income less than that is eligible for tax. Tds might not be provided by some organisations unless asked for since they don't deduct any tax.


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## sameer7106 (Apr 16, 2014)

_shel said:


> Generally you should file taxes anyway even if no tax is due. You need to prove you do not need to pay taxes and as it was cash and no deductions from employer that means you do it
> 
> Note this us a legal requirement in most countries. If you get to Australia they will give you a huge fine if you do not file your taxes even if you had nil income.


THANKS SHEL AND CB,

but in my case since i haven't filed the tax, now what should i do?? bank statement will not help me either because i draw a minimal salary thru which i meet my expenses. I can prove my appointment letter, with 2 appraisal letters, salary vouchers, visiting card of my company, declaration from notary or CA stating that i am receiving the salary in cash. now, please tell me what else do i have to show them so that my case shouldn't get rejected.

Thanks


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

So you were not legally employed and thus it can not usually be *Skilled EMPLOYMENT* 

If you do not have significant other evidence that is verifiable, worry. 

If you have other evidence that wil stand up to DIBP scrutiny, dont stress. 

They cant just take your word for it because lots would lie, get friends or even pay someone to provide evidence that is false. Hence the demand for firm evidence.


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## sameer7106 (Apr 16, 2014)

_shel said:


> So you were not legally employed and thus it can not usually be *Skilled EMPLOYMENT*
> 
> If you do not have significant other evidence that is verifiable, worry.
> 
> ...


Dear Shel,

sorry, but i didn't got you.

1) If you do not have significant other evidence that is verifiable, worry.
what other significant evidence they might consider in this case.

2)So you were not legally employed and thus it can not usually be *Skilled EMPLOYMENT* 
if one doesn't pay tax then does they consider it as illegal or not a skilled employment??

3) what other documents will i be needed to prove my case. Because, till now i was expecting that i have everything in legal and in writing to prove my skilled employment but this thread made me nervous.* Kindly add ur suggestions EXPATIANS*


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## Guest (May 17, 2014)

sameer7106 said:


> THANKS SHEL AND CB,
> 
> but in my case since i haven't filed the tax, now what should i do?? bank statement will not help me either because i draw a minimal salary thru which i meet my expenses. I can prove my appointment letter, with 2 appraisal letters, salary vouchers, visiting card of my company, declaration from notary or CA stating that i am receiving the salary in cash. now, please tell me what else do i have to show them so that my case shouldn't get rejected.
> 
> Thanks


DIAC is not bothered whether you are able to meet ur expenses or not. 

Since you receive salary in cash so bank statement is ruled out in ur case. In this case approach company to provide with a salary certificate stating your salary and mode of salary being paid. This wont be any problem as company would readily give you.

Th company that you are talking abt - r u still employed then offer letter, appraisal letter, stat and self declaration should be enough including salary certificate. I dont think getting declaration from notary or CA would help in this matter since its the company's reponsibility to provide the salary certificate. Speaking about CA, i think TDS is getting deducted from salary if yes then ask company to provide TDS certificate. This certificate is enough even if you cant provide proof salary.

The first company that i employed with, salary was not taxable but it was credited to bank account. So as a proof i have submitted my bank statement which shows company name in salary credit transaction.

This is my understanding from the question you posted. If not, then please be more elaborate on your next question.

Just think DIAC as an employer and they want to roll out job offer to you, so what documents would you provide to prove your employment and salary. Think from that perspective and i hope u will get all the answers.


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## samage (Jul 9, 2015)

Any body recently recovered in such situations ?


I received this letter on 22-Dec (Emp could not verified as DIBP Made several attempts but could not connect with my employer) and i sent response on 13-January by explain possible reason not to connect and given 10 more additional proofs. Till date no update.

Any body got visa after this letter ??


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