# Moving to france to star a business



## danjennings1958

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking Great Britain isn't so Great anymore I'm also sure I'm not alone in dreaming of living in France.
I did own a house in france 15 or so years ago, so am sort of familiar with the purchase side of hings, or at least was before Brexit.
Heres my idea.
I'm 63 not yet retired, my wife is 61.
We'de love while were still young ( ish ) and fit to buy a place somewhere like Charente area, ideally with a gite or two, some outdoor space and outbuildings. rent the gites but also offer walking tours, cooking course, bike trips, that sort of thing.
Where's a good place for me to ask lots of questions relating to my particular situation?
Maybe theres someone here that's done a similar thing in the last year?

I hope someone might help.

Thanks


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## Crabtree

The first thing you will need a Visa that allows you to start a business To get it you will need to show that you can run a business especially in tourism have a business plan and will be able to make enough money to support yourself Are you aware of the current level of cotisations and taxes that you will pay? and the fact that France today is far more expensive than 15 years ago Once you have firmed up your location contact the Chambres de Commerce in your area 
www.cci.fr and your local tourist board ;perhaps research similar businesses that are up for sale I think Bev posted a link on another thread
I am sure you are aware that gites are two a penny in France so you are going to have to work hard to make yours different
And finally if that bit of DNA mutates again then you could have a problem


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## danjennings1958

Crabtree said:


> The first thing you will need a Visa that allows you to start a business To get it you will need to show that you can run a business especially in tourism have a business plan and will be able to make enough money to support yourself Are you aware of the current level of cotisations and taxes that you will pay? and the fact that France today is far more expensive than 15 years ago Once you have firmed up your location contact the Chambres de Commerce in your area
> www.cci.fr and your local tourist board ;perhaps research similar businesses that are up for sale I think Bev posted a link on another thread
> I am sure you are aware that gites are two a penny in France so you are going to have to work hard to make yours different
> And finally if that bit of DNA mutates again then you could have a problem


Thanks ill look at visas. both myself and my wife have run businesses for 20 years or more in the uk so we can put together a business plan - but were hoping to have enough savings to treat the business almost as a hobby for a little extra income, something to enjoy and hopefully grow and supply us with extra income.
ill look into costs, youre talking about habitation taxes, fonceire etc?

dont understand about the DNA?

ill check or bevs post - thanks for the feedback, gives me a good starting point.


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## Bevdeforges

danjennings1958 said:


> but were hoping to have enough savings to treat the business almost as a hobby for a little extra income, something to enjoy and hopefully grow and supply us with extra income.


As far as the savings is concerned, they are generally looking for savings and investments that throw off enough income to meet the income requirements (at least when applying for a visa). They sort of don't want to approve folks moving to France to draw down their savings in order to live.

Now, one approach you could try (used to work for non EU nationals taking "early retirement" in France) is to draw up a sort of personal business plan, indicating how much of your savings you'll need to draw down until you reach pensionable age, combined with a statement estimating what amount of pension you'll be getting at that time. You'll need to demonstrate that you've done your homework as far as the current cost of living here in France, and then to show that you won't be spending down too significant a portion of your current "nest egg" while waiting for the pensions to kick in. No guarantees - but you never know until you try.


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## Crabtree

Re the DNA-it relates to the COVID virus
You cannot mix and match visas ie you come to work or not to work 
If you are hoping to live on a lump sum you need to be producing the french minimum wage of about €1600 per month pre tax


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## Crabtree

Pre Brexit your plan would have been totally viable albeit with a bit of belt tightening and indeed this is what a lot of people did but that is consolation I know Do you have any family that were Irish or Dutch and if so are they close enough on the family tree to get a passport? Or even any other EU nationality in your past?


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## 255

@danjennings1958 -- As @Crabtree mentioned above, your visa/resident permit (with work authorization) is your first stop. Here is the link for the Passport Talent: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . There are quite a few variations that might fit your situation. The good thing is that this permit can be valid for up to 4 years, one renewal and you can apply for long term residency and/or citizenship. You'll also need to form some form of French business entity. Cheers, 255


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## danjennings1958

255 said:


> @danjennings1958 -- As @Crabtree mentioned above, your visa/resident permit (with work authorization) is your first stop. Here is the link for the Passport Talent: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . There are quite a few variations that might fit your situation. The good thing is that this permit can be valid for up to 4 years, one renewal and you can apply for long term residency and/or citizenship. You'll also need to form some form of French business entity. Cheers, 255


thanks for the advice. 
We also have a number of different business skills that wede like to try, having run businesses in the uk for many years. 
These are transferrable but are more artisan, like cheese making, charcuterie, brewing etc, can we simply add these to a "standard business" setup once weve arrived and have visas in place ordo we have to register them in advance somewhere?
Thanks


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## EuroTrash

danjennings1958 said:


> can we simply add these to a "standard business" setup once weve arrived and have visas in place


Not sure what you mean by a "standard business" setup.
The decision on whether or not to grant a visa that allows you to set up a business will be based on the business plan that you submit. They'll want to know what your activity will be, with proof of qualifications if necessary, what kind of business entity you will establish, a full business plan with market research, income projections, projected expenses, where the funding is coming from etc. It iwill need to be fairly ambitious to get the visa, you are unlikely to get a business visa for a little hobby business; When you arrive you'll be expected to implement that plan. When it's time to renew your carte de séjour they'll look at your accounts to make sure that the business is on track.
Unless you have a secret magic formula, I suspect you'll have your work cut out for the first few years just getting to grips with what's involved in running a business in France and putting your new business on a solid footing.

But to try and offer an answer to your question: Sole traders can't register more than one business per person. Every activity has an activity code and your business registration will show your activity code; if you want to add an activity, you have to apply to add the new activity code. Subject to approval you can combine activities within that business, and normally it's approved when the activities complement each other in some way - for instance if one is a summer activity and one is a winter activity, or there is a clear link between them. Brewing, cheese-making and guided tours, not so much. France tends to like people to focus on one thing, they don't really go for the jack of all trades approach, and hey would likely take the view that you're not devoting your whole attention to any of the activities.
You can however be a director of more than one company, so in theory you could set up a string of SARLs or SASs or whatever, all doing different activities - but after you with that, unless you just love admin.


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## danjennings1958

EuroTrash said:


> Not sure what you mean by a "standard business" setup.
> The decision on whether or not to grant a visa that allows you to set up a business will be based on the business plan that you submit. They'll want to know what your activity will be, with proof of qualifications if necessary, what kind of business entity you will establish, a full business plan with market research, income projections, projected expenses, where the funding is coming from etc. It iwill need to be fairly ambitious to get the visa, you are unlikely to get a business visa for a little hobby business; When you arrive you'll be expected to implement that plan. When it's time to renew your carte de séjour they'll look at your accounts to make sure that the business is on track.
> Unless you have a secret magic formula, I suspect you'll have your work cut out for the first few years just getting to grips with what's involved in running a business in France and putting your new business on a solid footing.
> 
> But to try and offer an answer to your question: Sole traders can't register more than one business per person. Every activity has an activity code and your business registration will show your activity code; if you want to add an activity, you have to apply to add the new activity code. Subject to approval you can combine activities within that business, and normally it's approved when the activities complement each other in some way - for instance if one is a summer activity and one is a winter activity, or there is a clear link between them. Brewing, cheese-making and guided tours, not so much. France tends to like people to focus on one thing, they don't really go for the jack of all trades approach, and hey would likely take the view that you're not devoting your whole attention to any of the activities.
> You can however be a director of more than one company, so in theory you could set up a string of SARLs or SASs or whatever, all doing different activities - but after you with that, unless you just love admin.


Thanks ET youve given me a lot too think over and answered pretty all of my questions.

Were looking at a number of different ideas from simply ( or not so ) selling up in the UK and moving to france, having gites perhaps to supplement income, to having 2 homes one in uk one in france. I fear the latter is more complex and expensive than going for it and moving lock stock to france and finding ways t supplement income.
Distance working or WFH, is another possibility, with proceeds for the same being paid into a UK bank account, how is that treated in france?
Dan


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## Bevdeforges

danjennings1958 said:


> Distance working or WFH, is another possibility, with proceeds for the same being paid into a UK bank account, how is that treated in france?


You are considered to be working in whatever country you are located in while doing the work. Where or how you are paid or where your customers are located is pretty much irrelevant. You would have to be registered with the appropriate tax and social insurance agencies in France and paying into the French systems (and adhering to French work rules - though if you work for yourself, who's going to report you if you work too much overtime?


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## danjennings1958

So as a self employed person working for a uk in france, albeit remotely, id either be paying tax in the UK or France, but not both?


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## Bevdeforges

danjennings1958 said:


> So as a self employed person working for a uk in france, albeit remotely, id either be paying tax in the UK or France, but not both?


You would be paying taxes in France. Period. You don't get a choice. There isn't really a category for "self-employed." You have to create a business entity in France, which is the "employer." There are several options for a single-person business but you have to pick one of them.


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## danjennings1958

Bevdeforges said:


> You would be paying taxes in France. Period. You don't get a choice. There isn't really a category for "self-employed." You have to create a business entity in France, which is the "employer." There are several options for a single-person business but you have to pick one of them.


Ok thank you  
Dan


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## EuroTrash

danjennings1958 said:


> So as a self employed person working for a uk in france, albeit remotely,


I know you often here people say this in the UK - "I'm self-employed for x company" but if you think about it, that is a contradiction in terms. A self employed person works for themself, ie the person runs their own business and they/their business are independent of any other business. As a freelancer/contractor/sole trader business they may "do work for" clients in the UK and elsewhere, but they don't "work for" a UK company or any other company in the sense of following that business's instructions and working to grow that business and boost its profits. If you do that it's classed as concealed employment in France. In fact I think the UK is catching up with its IR35 regulations tightening up on contractors and off-payroll working in general.

If you're going to give it a go in France, I think it's important that you get a feel for the differences and don't assume that what will fly in the UK will fly here, The UK is very a low-regulation/business friendly/slack (depending how you look at it) business environment compared to most European countries and especially compared to France which is notorious for being high-regulation. Basically anyone can do anything, and as long as they can get work then they can hardly fail to make a profit. So for instance there's very little regulation on qualifications, insurances, fair competition etc, a person can set up as a roofer for instance, quote on jobs they don't really have the skills to do and undercut the prices that qualified tradesmen quote. If it goes wrong the customer can't get satisfaction because the person wasn't insured and has probably done a runner like fly-by-nights do, but it's accepted that that is the risk you take if you employ a cowboy. France on the other hand has a raft of regulations to try and prevent all those situations arising - as a roofer you need to be qualified before you set up the business, you need to have trade insurance, so nobody can operate on the cheap and quote bottom-feeder rates to steal work off of the professionals who have invested in getting qualifications safe working practices and trade insurance, and who take pride in their work and are in it for the long haul. So it is a very different environment, there are arguments to be made on both sides but either way I think that you need to be prepared for a mindset re-set.


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