# urgent immigration problem



## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

I have an immigration problem can anyone offer advice thanks


I am from the UK

My wife is from Ukraine 

we are married 4 years and previously lived in Ukraine

We are both in Cyprus now and she is on a 3 month tourist visa expires 24th June

Went to immigration to extend her visa and they asked for a pile of documents 

A. Certified/apostle marriage cert -- this is illegal under the Hague convention

B. a truck load of financial docs-- this is illegal under Directive 2004/38/EC.



Apart from the illegality of what they want there are some problems for example the marriage cert is here and we cant get it back to Ukraine in time to be stamped for the appointment on the 6th of June with the immigration people.


Has anyone come across this before or know a good lawyer

all help appreciated


Thanks 


Mac


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

Edit in progress.


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

Wont let me edit the above post.

I am not a lawyer so I am in a bit over my head. Furthermore, I am not an EU national so I am not too familiar with EU laws. I have however been an official that has dealt with immigration issues.

I am only familiar with the Hague Convention/Hague Treaty in the context of Law of Land Warfare and International Child Abduction. I was not aware there is a provision about marriage or marriage certification. That said, how do you expect the Cyprus gov to extend EU family member rights to your wife if you cannot, or will not, prove you are legally married?? You have until the 24th, can you not fly back for a quick trip or have someone in the Ukraine DHL it to you?

As for Directive 2004/38/EC; again, as someone who is not an EU national, I had to look this up. 

_________________

Right of Union citizens and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

*Right of residence for more than three months:*

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

-either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);

_-or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
_
-or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;

-_or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories._

Residence permits are abolished for Union citizens. However, Member States may require them to register with the competent authorities within a period of not less than three months as from the date of arrival. Proof of registration will be issued immediately on presentation of:

-an identity card or valid passport;
-proof that the above conditions are complied with (see Article 9 of the Directive on the proof required for each category of citizen). Union citizens engaged in training must show, by means of a statement or any other means, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and for the members of their families to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State. This will be sufficient to prove that they comply with the resources condition.

Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit for family members of Union citizens. These permits are valid for five years from their date of issue.

Under certain conditions the death of the Union citizen, his or her departure from the host Member State, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of partnership does not affect the right of family members who are not nationals of a Member State to continue residing in the Member State in question.

*Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence on grounds of public policy, public security or public health*

Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. _Under no circumstances may an expulsion decision be taken on economic grounds._

_________________

This is from another website:

_________________

Easy right to stay for up to 90 days if so desired. EU citizens and their non-EU family can work if desired in this period, or play.

_Easy right to stay longer if the EU citizen is working, is a student, or has medical insurance and is self sufficient._

Applications can only be turned down in three limited circumstances (public health, public policy, national security), _or when a marriage is determined to be fraudulent_. Reasons for refusal must be spelled out in detail and there is a right of appeal.

_________________


Based on this text (most relevant portions highlighted), it looks as though they are allowed to require financial information if you do not already have a job there or are going to school there. However, it would appear it unlikely they will disqualify her based upon the financial information obtained. It may just be easier to show them some financials but have this text in hand to ensure they don't discriminate based upon those financials. 

It also would seem they have the right under EU directive to confirm the legitimacy of your marriage.

Wish ya luck. Let us know how it turns out.


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

Sorry, researched the Hague convention some and just reread your post to see you have the marriage cert in your possession and have an appointment on June 6th. My apologies for the statement in the post above.

Legalities aside, there is a Ukrainian Embassy in Nicosia. Can you get the Marriage Cert stamped and certified by officials at the Embassy vice traveling back to Ukraine? That is what we did for all of our documents from the US while here in the Middle East.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

*documents*

Hi Thanks for the reply


The problem is I am quite happy to do all the Cyprus immigration require but time is an problem 

On the Hague convention it refers to the signatories who agreed that documents can be certified in any country party to the agreement and there was no need to have them certified in the country of origin as the immigration people are asking




On the family free movement directive ,, whats good for the goose is good for the gander,

Governments should not be allowed to pick and choose laws to play with 

Ok life's not fair and I have an immediate problem 


So has anyone been through this process as it relates to Eu family directive before in reference to cyprus 

I see another post where someone had the same situation but got it sorted through solvit


And Critical question if we don't have all the docs on the day of the appointment
will they extend my wife's stay while we sort them out



Thanks


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Mac512 said:


> Hi Thanks for the reply
> 
> 
> The problem is I am quite happy to do all the Cyprus immigration require but time is an problem
> ...


Go to the meeting so you have paid the fee. Then you can deal with all the other when papers are ready. There is no time limit after you ave made the application. They have 6 months to fix it but that can take longer.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Hi many thanks


can i just clarify this as its critical to my plan of action


A. i go to the meeting on the 16th and explain we need more time to collect all docs 


B. they will allow my wife to stay although her tourist visa expires on the 24th June while we amas the docs


C. will they issue some document to cover us on this during the time we collect the docs


if this is the case then it solves a huge problem


Thanks


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Mac512 said:


> Hi many thanks
> 
> 
> can i just clarify this as its critical to my plan of action
> ...


You have to go to the meeting. If you can contact the embassy and ask them about the marriage certificate, if they can fix that. Otherwise explain to the people at immigration that you will get it but want to file the application. The regulation say that your wife must apply within 4 months of her arrival here.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Thanks again


We are applying on the 16th and her tourist visa expires on the 24th (that's when the 3 months are up)


Problem is the Cypriot procedure, the Cypriot visa rules, and the the Eu law all contradict each other.

I saw a post from a chap called Vegaanders with exactly the same problem which he resolved through Solvit the EU mediator


Does anyone know how to contact him


Appreciated


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

Mac, what is missing is the info about you. Are you already employed in Cyprus? Are you already doing vocational training? If neither of these, do you and your wife have health insurance and sufficient resources to prevent them from questioning your ability to support yourselves in lieu of a job?

And, as I suggested earlier and as Baywatch suggests, have you contacted the Ukrainian Embassy in Nicosia to ask them if they will certify your Marriage Certificate? The Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (and the Consular Department under them) is listed as a Competent Authority for apostle certifications on the Hague Website.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Hi 


Just to fill you in on the situation

Yes i work here and have a social insurance number

But one of the requirements is you must have a Cypriot bank account older than 3 months i have only been here for 2 so even on the day of the appointment i could not comply even if i wanted to.

On the Ukraine embassy just to let you know my town is Slavyansk and its under blockade and occupied by Russian mercenaries.

Tnt Dhl fedex are not to keen on sending a white van man in

(but we actually got all docs out and they are on the way here )



The Ukraine has just undergone a revolution and the possibility of the ministry doing anything within six months are slim

But the kicker is Cyprus is acting illegally and this is not an entitlement attitude 

Its about having a problem made worse by bureaucrats who are a power unto themselves in any country

Worst scenario is i lose because i cant provide the docs

And i lose because i kick up stink


Best scenario i win and its easier for others in the future


Thanks for all the help and any other suggestions welcomed


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

I didn't know anything about the Cyprus bank account and certainly agree from my research that constitutes an illegal requirement. You should only have to provide proof of employment for yourself to rate automatic and immediate residency. If employed, you should only show your registration and the marriage cert for her to rate residency and for them to accept the application (which as stated in the other thread is all that matters for the time being). I am not sure is CyprusVisa.eu is an official website but it states an EU national need only a passport or identity card and proof of employment (document of Engagement of Employment, stamped by labor department, showing the code of economic activity of the employer) to file for residency. If it is official, print the page and take it with you for your next meeting.

I see the problems the marriage cert apostle presents. Still, it would seem the Embassy might (if not should) be able to endorse it there, tho it was pointed out in the other thread that obtaining an official english translation is required and this possibly presents a bigger issue to overcome. Is that the case?

If you are employed and they are refusing your application and residency, you certainly have a case. As for your wife, I would try to get them to accept the application and issue you the application certificate while you continue to work the issues. Take what you have and hope for the best.

Sorry about all the problems back home. I sincerely wish you and your wife the best. Hope it all works out.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Meenotyou said:


> I didn't know anything about the Cyprus bank account and certainly agree from my research that constitutes an illegal requirement. You should only have to provide proof of employment for yourself to rate automatic and immediate residency. If employed, you should only show your registration and the marriage cert for her to rate residency and for them to accept the application (which as stated in the other thread is all that matters for the time being). I am not sure is CyprusVisa.eu is an official website but it states an EU national need only a passport or identity card and proof of employment (document of Engagement of Employment, stamped by labor department, showing the code of economic activity of the employer) to file for residency. If it is official, print the page and take it with you for your next meeting.
> 
> I see the problems the marriage cert apostle presents. Still, it would seem the Embassy might (if not should) be able to endorse it there, tho it was pointed out in the other thread that obtaining an official english translation is required and this possibly presents a bigger issue to overcome. Is that the case?
> 
> ...


The English translation is no problem, Cyprus have an agency for that, that is approved. Its in Nicosia.

Mac can also be self employed and be allowed to stay, but it will take longer time and more paperwork.

And he can be allowed if he has a fat bank account.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Hi Veronica 

apologies for mixing two threads


Can i ask are you 100% sure that once an application is lodged the person has the right to stay until resolved one way or other


I worry that they will just say no docs goodbye


and under normal circumstances this would not be a problem but have you seen the situation in slavyansk


i was lucky to get out with the shirt on my back

Thanks again


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Mac512 said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> Just to fill you in on the situation
> ...


First I don't understand why the embassy should not help you with the marriage certificate. It should have nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine for the moment.

If they as you write demand you to have a bank account here, older then 3 months, they certainly violate the decree.

In your case I would make an application to SOLVIT here where you state all they demand from you and also send copies of all documents you have got from immigration. SOLVIT has immigation experts helping you. 

I am sure you know the website, otherwise it is here: 
SOLVIT - EU rights problem solving when working, living or doing business in another EU country - European Commission


Remember that it is SOLVIT in UK and not here, even if it is SOLVIT here that in the end will sort it out.

Nothing will happen during the time, even if the Visa for your wife has expired..

One thing I would advise though: Even if you are upset and angry because of how you are treated, try to be calm and diplomatic when you deal with immigration here. They are many times small and not very skilled people, but they have the power to make life a living hell for you

But Mac, never give up.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Documents requested by the Paphos office

A. Passports 2 off
B. Marriage cert Apostolized in Ukraine in the foreign ministry of Ukraine
c. Divorce certs Apostalized in the UK and Ukraine(foreign ministry)
D. National Insurance number
E. letter from employer Confirming salary
F. Bank accounts Cyprus/ older than 3 months
G. Tenancy agreement
h, Bank accounts Uk and Ukraine
i. Passport pics
j. Health insurance both me and the wife
K. All documents stamped by the Moukari
L. All docs translated to both English and Greek where Necessary
M. Certificate from the employment office.


I thinks that's all will re check now


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Mac512 said:


> Documents requested by the Paphos office
> 
> A. Passports 2 off
> B. Marriage cert Apostolized in Ukraine in the foreign ministry of Ukraine
> ...


This list make me laugh. 

I think though that still the embassy can be the foreign ministry office in Cyprus. 

We were in the same situation exept that I am self employed.

They never asked for any bank accounts, here or there.
Translation only to English not Greek.
Only Rental agreement stamped by Mukthar

As I said in the PM Mac. Take this to SOLVIT now

Anders


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Hi Anders,
I thought that was you. Welcome back


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## Meenotyou (May 26, 2014)

Just so you know, the Consular Department at the Ukrainian Embassy is a department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They are a division of MoF and represent MoF overseas.


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## Mac512 (May 29, 2014)

Hi Thanks 

But are you sure if so that solves a huge problem


I will check today



Regards Daniel


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