# Be Aware Expats



## Serendipity2

From the 'other' site......

"Checks on foreign business tieups in Phuket

PHUKET: -- A fact-finding effort is underway in Phuket to compile information about local businesses in which Thai people are hired by foreigners as their nominees - a practice considered suspicious and possibly illegal.

Provincial governor Wichai Phrai-sa-ngob, who ordered the investigation, said he was not discriminating against foreign investors, but guarding against illegal nomination which exploited loopholes in Thai laws for personal gain.

Under the business nomination law, foreigners can hold no more than 49-per-cent ownership of any business they jointly invest in with Thais. An ongoing practice is that foreigners later gain control over Thais illegally, and enjoy a lower tax burden than when holding a minority ownership.

To scrutinise foreign businesses, the local revenue office is checking on their tax payments, while the treasury office is scrutinising ownership of condominium space. Immigration police are checking visa and residence status.

Local authorities and the Interior Ministry will look into all information and decide on what to do if the fact-finding reveals illegal business nomination activities, said the governor.

There are now 19,653 joint Thai-foreign businesses in Phuket, which have invested around Bt62 million." 



I'm guessing that Bt62 is THB 62 Billion!? If there are 19,653 joint Thai - foreign owned business just in Phuket that means the 'average' joint venture is less than US$100,000. Actually,it's US$92,433 and most likely the farang put up ALL of the investment capital. 

That's THB 62 Billion that Thailand would not have had to invigorate/reinvigorate Phuket. Is this for real? The Provincial Governor seems intent on killing the goose that laid the golden egg to ferret out those pesky rich foreigners. Does he not realize this will most likely dramatically reduce the amount of capital foreigners will be willing to bring into the county and the corresponding loss of jobs, the increase in poverty and crime. 

Sounds to me like Provincial Governor Wichai Phrai-sa-ngob is jealous of farangs. With all of the restrictions in Thailand I don't think I'll be bringing much money into the country so that the government can seize it. The motto of the Thai government [and the Democratic Party here in the USA - "We're not happy until you're not happy." 

Serendipity2


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## Mindaugas

*Investing in Thailand: Nominees Issue, the witch hunt?*

The hot potato of the moment is the Thai Nominees issue and there has not been one day for the past two weeks without an article or another in Thai press on the subject.


Today (2nd of September) there is an article in the Nation about the nominees issue in Phuket. This issue, is complicated enough in itself and the least we could expect from the Nation (a very good newspaper) is an article on the subject which makes sense.

Firstly there is no such a thing as the “business nomination law”. Secondly there is no law in Thailand, that would stipulates that foreign investors may not hold more than 49% of any businesses they invest into.

What there is the Foreign Business Act which regulates the business activities which are fully prohibited or which exercise by foreign investors in the form of a majority foreign owned business is submitted to the obtaining of permission that is to say a foreign business license or certificate depending of the circumstances?

Now the activities which are prohibited or restricted are listed in the FBA list 1, 2 and 3. To the contrary any activity which is not listed into the FBA attachments list 1, 2 and 3 may be exercised by foreign investors in the form of a 100% foreign ownership. For example, among businesses that may be exercised under the form of a 100% foreign investment are most manufacturing businesses. In other words, it is incorrect to say that foreign investors may not hold more than 49% of any business they invest into.

Secondly, the nation article also mention that “foreigners’ later gain control over Thai illegally, and enjoy a lower tax burden than when holding a minority ownership”. This is the strangest explanation I have ever seen. There is no correlation between ownership of a company and the amount of taxes said company will paid. Foreign or Thai are subjected to the same tax rates.

Thirdly, the reporter says that “there are now 19,653 joint Thai foreign businesses in Phuket, which have invested around THB 62,000,000”. I have a problem with this figure because it would mean that each Thai foreign Joint Venture in Phuket has invested a total of 3,154.75 THB (or 92 USD each). I guess that the figure of foreign investment in Phuket must be more in the range of several billions THB

What is true is that foreign investors may not hold more than 49% in a company that own land.

Actually the requirement is of the double majority and a company that own land must have 51% of Thai shareholders holding together 51% of the company shares. It is also true that the Land Law provide sanctions that are applicable to those that would be in violation and that have purchased land through Thai companies with Thai shareholders that may be deemed nominees.

What is also true is that “land trading” is a business that is prohibited to foreign investor under the Foreign Business Act List 1. This means that foreign investors may only own 49% participation into said business and that if they exercised said business with company that have Thai shareholders that may be deemed as Thai nominees they would also in addition face sanctions under the FBA Section 37 and followings.

There is definitively a problem in Thailand about how many foreign investors have structured their businesses and this issue has to be solved but starting a witch hunt and reporting nonsense as the Nation did this morning is certainly not the best way to deal with it.


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## Guest

Bit ofrepitition above cos two threads were started on same topic, now merged...


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## Mindaugas

frogblogger said:


> Bit ofrepitition above cos two threads were started on same topic, now merged...


Please check time who was first


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## Mindaugas

Serendipity2 may you born in China that you able so fast make "copy in other words" ?


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## oddball

We are picky aren't we ? Why not be pleasant by refering to an old adage " Great minds think alike " . Should we all keep in our minds the basic goings on in Thailand , the land of the lost (True) smile , life will continue in a pleasant vein , THAILAND IS FOR THAIS , foriegners will not actualy own one iota of anything that constitutes Thailand per-se , keep your thoughts and propositions to yourself , deposit your money in the general funds pot and leave , which way would be most desirable for your good self .


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## Serendipity2

Mindaugas said:


> Serendipity2 may you born in China that you able so fast make "copy in other words" ?



Mindaugas,

I'm a very fast guy!  

I think the amount was THB 62 Billion not THB 62 million - which would be an absurd amount to worry about - but $92,000 is a significant amount.

The article didn't specify businesses or land but did use condos in the article as an example but condo owners do not own the land - just the inside of their units. Unless condo ownership in Thailand is different than in the west - which I doubt. 

Still, I'm sure the majority of that THB 62 Billion was invested by foreigners. Talk about a Provincial Governor shooting himself in the foot with worry. Government - the bane of our existence.

Serendipity2


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## adrianmark

Great info. I'll be sure to pass it on to a few friends who are considering the Thai option.


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## Guest

adrianmark said:


> Great info. I'll be sure to pass it on to a few friends who are considering the Thai option.


I think it is a serious worry for Thais that if they let farrangs buy all the businesses and control the land, the Thais will be out of work and off the land. They have good reason to be concerned because that happened in Scotland and Ireland and believe it or not England under the enclosure laws not so long ago. Plus it is happening in the FSU now. I think there is a huge difference between investing money like a bank or a cash or intelectual property investor and taking over a country under false pretenses.


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## Mindaugas

happy bunny said:


> I think it is a serious worry for Thais that if they let farrangs buy all the businesses and control the land, the Thais will be out of work and off the land. They have good reason to be concerned because that happened in Scotland and Ireland and believe it or not England under the enclosure laws not so long ago. Plus it is happening in the FSU now. I think there is a huge difference between investing money like a bank or a cash or intelectual property investor and taking over a country under false pretenses.


As i know all foreigners who works in Thailand give 4 working places for thai. So in this case thai are protected.


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## Akira

*They need falangs*



happy bunny said:


> I think it is a serious worry for Thais that if they let farrangs buy all the businesses and control the land, the Thais will be out of work and off the land. They have good reason to be concerned because that happened in Scotland and Ireland and believe it or not England under the enclosure laws not so long ago. Plus it is happening in the FSU now.


I wold'nt say it's a perfect truth, but a partial one.

Traveling now for six months in Asia, I didn't see a lot dynamic and courageous entrepreneurs there. May be a cultural feature, but they still quiet conservative and sometimes lazy to make news paths or try to be adapted to the market, as we see it in the Western countries. I spent two days explaining one guy in Champasak (Laos) that if he just buy one old computer and put an Internet access on it, his investment will be back* in three moths exactly*, then, the pure profit! He said, may be the next year....Even having the money to start something new, he doesn't want to change his usual way of living!

So, don't say guys, the falangs will take they job or they land. I wish to invest there, but I see so many racism and mad-minded comportment, stupid laws and people loosing they business, I think they loss a lot without foreign experience and money.


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## Guest

Akira said:


> I wold'nt say it's a perfect truth, but a partial one.
> 
> Traveling now for six months in Asia, I didn't see a lot dynamic and courageous entrepreneurs there. May be a cultural feature, but they still quiet conservative and sometimes lazy to make news paths or try to be adapted to the market, as we see it in the Western countries. I spent two days explaining one guy in Champasak (Laos) that if he just buy one old computer and put an Internet access on it, his investment will be back* in three moths exactly*, then, the pure profit! He said, may be the next year....Even having the money to start something new, he doesn't want to change his usual way of living!
> 
> So, don't say guys, the falangs will take they job or they land. I wish to invest there, but I see so many racism and mad-minded comportment, stupid laws and people loosing they business, I think they loss a lot without foreign experience and money.


Living some of the time in the North, I see most people perfectly happy with their life and they see no reason to change. Why let farrangs like us come in and destroy their life and culture like we did everywhere else. I spent a life running around busy and I envy their simple life. They need to run their own life the way they like it, not the way we want them to make money for us.


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## oddball

happy bunny said:


> Living some of the time in the North, I see most people perfectly happy with their life and they see no reason to change. Why let farrangs like us come in and destroy their life and culture like we did everywhere else. I spent a life running around busy and I envy their simple life. They need to run their own life the way they like it, not the way we want them to make money for us.


Thai are lazy(not all ) , they like the sanook , laid back life , a Thai will change his job for less money if he has to work less and can chat with his friends . It has been explained to rice farmers how to get at least 25% more yield if they work 10/12 hours more per growing season , production has not increased in several years , the only way they have been able to keep up with export demand , has been due to many Thai eating less rice . The other way is to rent the land to a foreigner and let him work it , they get money and some of the yield , why work when all they need to do is sit and watch the rice grow whilst drinking a whiskey and playing cards with friends .

Do not believe this , google China and Thailand for per rai yield of rice , China has almost double .


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## Guest

Well in the likes of Isaan I've seen plenty of people putting in the hours, and working as hard as one might expect in a tropical climate. Vast swathes of China are a lot more conducive to working in the fields. It's a matter of perception, and taking all the factors into account. I don't say they slog their guts out, but why should they? That's mainly a Western/US concept, working all hours, for what? for a pittance more? People have different ideas about what 'quality of life' means.

Agreed alcohol consumption is a growing problem. As it is pretty much everywhere these days.


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## oddball

frogblogger said:


> Well in the likes of Isaan I've seen plenty of people putting in the hours, and working as hard as one might expect in a tropical climate. Vast swathes of China are a lot more conducive to working in the fields. It's a matter of perception, and taking all the factors into account. I don't say they slog their guts out, but why should they? That's mainly a Western/US concept, working all hours, for what? for a pittance more? People have different ideas about what 'quality of life' means.
> 
> Agreed alcohol consumption is a growing problem. As it is pretty much everywhere these days.


It is all well and good to be the 'Defender of the free " , but when the government threw money at them to up-date their farms to help make their lot in life more productive with less effort , what happened ? Many of them , instead of buying a tractor or an automatic rice planter(for instance) went out to buy a new truck and the latest TV , now some complain they cannot afford the fuel or the electricity to use them , they are merely deeper in dept . 

They have no real concept of the value of money nor of how to invest it in equipment to improve their futures , in their culture(?) , there is no tomorrow and Buddha will provide , the government failed to educate them in these matters , for a reason of course . 

You mention the tropical climate is not conducive to working in , they were born and bred into it the same way an eskimo (sorry, Inuit) was born to survive in sub-zero temperatures , they traversed for days or weeks at a time to ensure their survival , had they sat on their duffs to watch the fish grow , they would have frozen on the spot . Making excuses does not enhance either their life or their future , maipenrai .


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## Guest

Like everything, there's an element of truth in that, but it's only part of the story. Go to pretty much any tropical country on the planet, and you'll see people working at a similar pace. As for using grants to buy the wrong things, some did, some didn't. Pretty stupid of the government not to tie the grants to specific types of purchase, but that's typical of the general incompetence of an undemocratic and largely corrupt administration.

Few people do have the same concept of money as in the West, where the notion of savings and investment isn't restricted to a privileged elite as in LOS. Pretty unsurprising really. People that aren't used to have more cash than they need to survive are going to get it wrong more often than not, until it becomes something they are used to and better understand.

These aren't excuses, it's about understanding human nature, wherever you are on the planet.


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## oddball

frogblogger said:


> Like everything, there's an element of truth in that, but it's only part of the story. Go to pretty much any tropical country on the planet, and you'll see people working at a similar pace. As for using grants to buy the wrong things, some did, some didn't. Pretty stupid of the government not to tie the grants to specific types of purchase, but that's typical of the general incompetence of an undemocratic and largely corrupt administration.
> 
> Few people do have the same concept of money as in the West, where the notion of savings and investment isn't restricted to a privileged elite as in LOS. Pretty unsurprising really. People that aren't used to have more cash than they need to survive are going to get it wrong more often than not, until it becomes something they are used to and better understand.
> 
> These aren't excuses, it's about understanding human nature, wherever you are on the planet.


 I lived in a northern village for some time , houses became flooded during the rainy season since the government had built a new road for them , I talked to the head man about digging a drainage ditch down the side of the road , the response from the villagers "Why we do that ?" 

I paid ten women B2,000 to dig the ditch to my specifications , guess what ? They uncovered the original culverts under the original drive ways into their homes and it barely took them one day to do the work . I was no longer there when the rains came , reports came down to BKK , no more flooding .

Please talk to me about human nature , that was maipenrai laziness .


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## Guest

Laziness? Part and parcel of human nature - wherever you are in the world. It's not the result of some kind of genetic imprinting specific to those living within Thai borders, given that Thais are a mix of many nations that have come together over the eons. And Buddhism - when applied to strictly follow Theravada dhamma guidelines - is no more inclined towards laziness than any other philosophy. On the contrary, as the Dalai Lama said:

"One can be deceived by three types of laziness: of indolence, which is the wish to procrastinate; the laziness of inferiority, which is doubting your capabilities; and the laziness that is attachment to negative actions, or putting great effort into non-virtue."

Pretty much any people living in borderline poverty is disinclined to work their butts off to make the elite richer, while getting very little in return themselves. That will begin to change, as and when they get a slightly larger slice of the cake.


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## Serendipity2

oddball said:


> Thai are lazy(not all ) , they like the sanook , laid back life , a Thai will change his job for less money if he has to work less and can chat with his friends . It has been explained to rice farmers how to get at least 25% more yield if they work 10/12 hours more per growing season , production has not increased in several years , the only way they have been able to keep up with export demand , has been due to many Thai eating less rice . The other way is to rent the land to a foreigner and let him work it , they get money and some of the yield , why work when all they need to do is sit and watch the rice grow whilst drinking a whiskey and playing cards with friends .
> 
> Do not believe this , google China and Thailand for per rai yield of rice , China has almost double .



oddball, 

God forbid, the Thais are willing to trade a higher wage for .... quality of life? That's outrageous. We need to teach them to work like dogs so that they can have more "things" that the ultra wealthy make egregious profits on. Who do they think they are anyway. 

The main difference between the Chinese rice farmer and the Thai rice farmer is, usually the Thai owns his land and the Chinese farmer works for the government who owns the land. He or she is little better than a slave in China. There are exceptions but most will be at the top of the money food chain, ie the ruling class and to heck with the rest of the 1.295 billion people. No worries, soon we'll all be slaves anyway. America is the last bastion of freedom and it's going very fast. :/

Serendipity2


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## oddball

frogblogger said:


> Laziness? Part and parcel of human nature - wherever you are in the world. It's not the result of some kind of genetic imprinting specific to those living within Thai borders, given that Thais are a mix of many nations that have come together over the eons. And Buddhism - when applied to strictly follow Theravada dhamma guidelines - is no more inclined towards laziness than any other philosophy. On the contrary, as the Dalai Lama said:
> 
> "One can be deceived by three types of laziness: of indolence, which is the wish to procrastinate; the laziness of inferiority, which is doubting your capabilities; and the laziness that is attachment to negative actions, or putting great effort into non-virtue."
> 
> Pretty much any people living in borderline poverty is disinclined to work their butts off to make the elite richer, while getting very little in return themselves. That will begin to change, as and when they get a slightly larger slice of the cake.


 This thread is strictly concerning Thai and Thailand and the reaction , or lack , of to working , when you quote other countries , you once again 'Excuse ' their indifference to work , you have lost your previous defence of living in a tropical belt . I can re-itterate many stories such as my previous post , but you , like so many 'Thai-wise ' will continue with the indefenceable , I have found on far too many occassions of helping at my expense , as soon as the dollar freely given stops , so does the induced work ethic . 

How many Thai amongst the poor actualy follow the strict laws of Theravada ? You are a dreamer sir and will obviously never face up to the hard facts , until they can believe the fact laziness and maipenrai achieve little in their favour , they will never change for the better . I have never seen a Thai living in borderline poverty work his butt off unless i was paying him , paying him to achieve his own salvation , I supplied the means to some so they could operate a small buisiness , in short order the means were sold and they were back to square one , I finaly conceded to maipenrai .


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## Guest

oddball said:


> This thread is strictly concerning Thai and Thailand and the reaction , or lack , of to working , when you quote other countries , you once again 'Excuse ' their indifference to work , you have lost your previous defence of living in a tropical belt . I can re-itterate many stories such as my previous post , but you , like so many 'Thai-wise ' will continue with the indefenceable , I have found on far too many occassions of helping at my expense , as soon as the dollar freely given stops , so does the induced work ethic .


You suggested that it was Thai-specific, I demonstrated that it was not, and is indeed behaviour that you will find in many a country. Pigeon-holing entire nations in such a simplistic way just reveals a lack of depth and understanding of the mechanisms at work. I can match any amount of your anecdotes with comparable stories from other countries around the world, including the West. I don't know where you hail from, but I've no doubt the majority of people only work as hard as they have to there as well, unless they're being brainwashed or coerced to do otherwise.



oddball said:


> How many Thai amongst the poor actualy follow the strict laws of Theravada ? You are a dreamer sir and will obviously never face up to the hard facts , until they can believe the fact laziness and maipenrai achieve little in their favour , they will never change for the better . I have never seen a Thai living in borderline poverty work his butt off unless i was paying him , paying him to achieve his own salvation , I supplied the means to some so they could operate a small buisiness , in short order the means were sold and they were back to square one , I finaly conceded to maipenrai .


You don't seem to understand my English. I did not even remotely suggest that Thais follow Buddhist precepts particularly closely. In fact I simply responded to the suggestion that _mai pen rai_ was some kind of inbuilt compulsion specific to Thais, which is plain silly. The psychology at work, the different cultural imperatives, are far more complex than some kind of dismissive nonsense labelling, such as 'Thais are lazy, it's in their nature". Attempt to convince a university that you should write a thesis based on that and they'll laugh their heads off.


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## oddball

May I be so bold as to pass comment on would be responders to comments in both this thread and in any other thread on this forum that is chosen to be discussed/commented on by merely clicking on the flag of the country concerned chosen from the vertical list on the right of the page .

May I also be so bold once again , to bring your attention to the header at the top of each page , to the right is a flag representing the country in question that you have chosen , there are also words expressing the guidance of posters to the fact that the purpose of this page is for expats and others to talk about and pass opinions on the country in question .

Nowhere have I noticed a heading under any flag of any country where it states ' Comparison of countries' , please give comparative thoughts of how you feel your comments on this thread is like/unlike any other country of your choice . 

This gives me and my interpretation of English , that threads are mainly country specific .


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## Guest

If you choose to dismiss an entire people as lazy, then you must expect to get called to task for coming out with such a facile stereotype. Stereotypes are countered by a number of means; in this case a national stereotype also happens to look rather nonsensical when Thailand is compared with other countries.

It also looks weak to those who have a different experience of the Thais and Thailand to your own, or those who have an knowledge of other factors involved; eg cultural, psychological, political and geographical.

It is a complex situation, and one that merits proper analysis, rather than pigeon-holing according to personal experience and interpretation.


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## Guest

oddball said:


> This thread is strictly concerning Thai and Thailand and the reaction , or lack , of to working , when you quote other countries , you once again 'Excuse ' their indifference to work , you have lost your previous defence of living in a tropical belt . I can re-itterate many stories such as my previous post , but you , like so many 'Thai-wise ' will continue with the indefenceable , I have found on far too many occassions of helping at my expense , as soon as the dollar freely given stops , so does the induced work ethic .
> 
> How many Thai amongst the poor actualy follow the strict laws of Theravada ? You are a dreamer sir and will obviously never face up to the hard facts , until they can believe the fact laziness and maipenrai achieve little in their favour , they will never change for the better . I have never seen a Thai living in borderline poverty work his butt off unless i was paying him , paying him to achieve his own salvation , I supplied the means to some so they could operate a small buisiness , in short order the means were sold and they were back to square one , I finaly conceded to maipenrai .


If you think the Thais are lazy you have never tried working with them.  It was rice harvest time in Issan the last few weeks. I know from experience that I cannot cut rice for more than a few minutes it is such hot hard work. I have also tried beating the rice and had to lay down for an hour after an hour at it. The hospitals in the region are busy treating people for heat exhaustion. My job at harvest time is to lift the sacks onto the trucks and into high and difficult storage places because as a lucky farrang I am about twice as strong as the local guys. Because of that I am expected to sit around resting with the women feeding me up, until they are ready for me. We worked all day and sometimes finished at 2 am. They won't stop once the rice stands are stacked in case someone steals the crop. For the years work they maybe make USD 1000 from a farm that a family can manage. If they work harder and use machinery for irrigation maybe they make an extra few dollars but there is no 'business case' for that.


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## oddball

happy bunny said:


> If you think the Thais are lazy you have never tried working with them.  It was rice harvest time in Issan the last few weeks. I know from experience that I cannot cut rice for more than a few minutes it is such hot hard work. I have also tried beating the rice and had to lay down for an hour after an hour at it. The hospitals in the region are busy treating people for heat exhaustion. My job at harvest time is to lift the sacks onto the trucks and into high and difficult storage places because as a lucky farrang I am about twice as strong as the local guys. Because of that I am expected to sit around resting with the women feeding me up, until they are ready for me. We worked all day and sometimes finished at 2 am. They won't stop once the rice stands are stacked in case someone steals the crop. For the years work they maybe make USD 1000 from a farm that a family can manage. If they work harder and use machinery for irrigation maybe they make an extra few dollars but there is no 'business case' for that.


 
We have 5 rice paddies , I am aware of what work is involved for the 3 WEEKS at harvest time , plus 2 WEEKS of prepping the soil and planting the rice by hand , with 2 plantings that is 10 weeks of the year , what happens for most of them the other 42 weeks ? We use a portable water pump that has given a 25% increase in yield , The family does not complain , the rest of the year they keep reasonably busy with other work , hauling goods for miles with a horse and cart , sewing clothes with a treadle machine , harvesting various fruits for market etc . 

With the proceeds of money produced from all of their various buisiness endeavors instigated by yours truly over the past 4 years , my wife has just completed the building of a large , good quality wood house in the village , cost $11,000.00 , plus fed and clothed themselves . Your family with your help produced approx $4,000.00 off which they had to live for a year .

Now , what was the point you and others have been trying to make ? I was given a warning by a Mod for trying to express my own personal opinion and findings , on this open forum , which I have found to be very informative for other members over the years I have been a member , because I had a different slant on things , so-be-it .:focus:


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## Guest

Oddball. As explained to you by pm, you were given a warning for ad hominem remarks which constitutes behaviour not permitted under forum rules. Personal opinion on topic, and ad hominem comments addressed to forum members, are two different things.

On the topic of alleged Thai 'laziness', my wife's family work in Bangkok My brother-in-law works all hours for a cinema chain, for a very average salary. His wife works for Bangkok Bank, where she has been for the past five years, and works at least as hard as the average bank clerk in the West. My sister-in-law works for a Japanese business as a trilingual PA, six days a week, and hadn't had a holiday in nine years until she visited us in France for just a week last month. She earns all of 35,000B a month, plus the occasional bonus. 

People have different experiences. You can't import the Western work ethic into Thailand and expect the same incentives to apply.


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## oddball

frogblogger said:


> Oddball. As explained to you by pm, you were given a warning for ad hominem remarks which constitutes behaviour not permitted under forum rules. Personal opinion on topic, and ad hominem comments addressed to forum members, are two different things.
> 
> On the topic of alleged Thai 'laziness', my wife's family work in Bangkok My brother-in-law works all hours for a cinema chain, for a very average salary. His wife works for Bangkok Bank, where she has been for the past five years, and works at least as hard as the average bank clerk in the West. My sister-in-law works for a Japanese business as a trilingual PA, six days a week, and hadn't had a holiday in nine years until she visited us in France for just a week last month. She earns all of 35,000B a month, plus the occasional bonus.
> 
> People have different experiences. You can't import the Western work ethic into Thailand and expect the same incentives to apply.



They should all be applauded for setting such a good example and making you proud of them , apples-oranges ?


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## Guest

oddball said:


> We have 5 rice paddies , I am aware of what work is involved for the 3 WEEKS at harvest time , plus 2 WEEKS of prepping the soil and planting the rice by hand , with 2 plantings that is 10 weeks of the year , what happens for most of them the other 42 weeks ? We use a portable water pump that has given a 25% increase in yield , The family does not complain , the rest of the year they keep reasonably busy with other work , hauling goods for miles with a horse and cart , sewing clothes with a treadle machine , harvesting various fruits for market etc .
> 
> With the proceeds of money produced from all of their various buisiness endeavors instigated by yours truly over the past 4 years , my wife has just completed the building of a large , good quality wood house in the village , cost $11,000.00 , plus fed and clothed themselves . Your family with your help produced approx $4,000.00 off which they had to live for a year .
> 
> Now , what was the point you and others have been trying to make ? I was given a warning by a Mod for trying to express my own personal opinion and findings , on this open forum , which I have found to be very informative for other members over the years I have been a member , because I had a different slant on things , so-be-it .:focus:


Hi Oddball you are confusing me completely . You said Thais were lazy and would not improve. I provided the example that they were not lazy. You then trumped my example to now also say they were not lazy. Hence my confusion. Anyway my original point was that even on only $1000 a year from the land they can get by, and you amply supported that with your own experience. The point of that point is that if the Thais did not stop the Farrangs from interfering they would soon be thrown off their land. I mean if allowed and if they would sell I could on my western money easily afford to buy most of the farms in the area, bring in machines and chuck everyone off the land as has happened and is happening in other parts of the world.


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## oddball

I am in Cambodia !!!!


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## Acid_Crow

Just drop it already.. it's not up to you guys to decide who's lazy and who's not.. and even if it was, who cares??!


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## Akira

Thanks to oddball for comments.
I was surprised by some "passivity" (laziness) in different occasions, asking friends explain to me the origins. 
The answer was the same-same "why do more when I have enough?" Ok, and the rubbish around and in your house? Spend 2 hours and clean it. No, it's OK. 
Then, you ask why they don't care about the children future (work more, save money, pay them nice studies), they say my grand-mum didn't study, they don't need it as well.


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## Guest

Akira said:


> Thanks to oddball for comments.
> I was surprised by some "passivity" (laziness) in different occasions, asking friends explain to me the origins.
> The answer was the same-same "why do more when I have enough?" Ok, and the rubbish around and in your house? Spend 2 hours and clean it. No, it's OK.
> Then, you ask why they don't care about the children future (work more, save money, pay them nice studies), they say my grand-mum didn't study, they don't need it as well.


Are you sure you were in Thailand?


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## Akira

frogblogger said:


> Are you sure you were in Thailand?


Bangkok, Ayutthaya, Sukhothai, Chiang Mai, Pai, Mae Hong Son, Chiang Rai. 
Tomorrow will be in Bangkok again. 

I don't think all those cities are Chinese now?


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## oddball

Akira said:


> Bangkok, Ayutthaya, Sukhothai, Chiang Mai, Pai, Mae Hong Son, Chiang Rai.
> Tomorrow will be in Bangkok again.
> 
> I don't think all those cities are Chinese now?


 I think you can safely say your assumption is correct , those are without a doubt towns and cities inside the borders of the kingdom of thailand , been to most of those and many more getting the feel of the ordinary thai and their way of life .


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## oddball

Acid_Crow said:


> Just drop it already.. it's not up to you guys to decide who's lazy and who's not.. and even if it was, who cares??!


 You have a good point there Acid_Crow , is that a personal observation ?


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## Guest

Rubbish in houses? Sure that will happen as anywhere else in the world. But on the whole if there's one place where the Thais are proud of their cleanliness, it's in the home. And I've been in a whole selection of Thai homes, from the poorest up. Just look at how they turn out their kids for school - even in the villages where they barely scrape a living ('living', in the literal sense of the word). Immaculate.

Not preparing for the kids future? Easier said than done, where uneducated people are living off subsistence wages with no state support. But even so, when I ask my wife how it works, she tells me of her family putting aside a little money in the bank every month for their children's education. Even over the seasons where the rice harvest has been poor.

But the main misunderstanding comes from the expectation that everyone aspires to a materialistic, Western consumerist, lifestyle. There are still those that do not, and who actually look down on certain aspects of the resultant lifestyles. Can't say I blame them, when I see the faultlines in US and Western economic policies and philosophies in recent years.


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## oddball

Having lived in a mostly thai apartment block I beg to differ , but I am walking on thin ice so will keep my piece , pun intended .


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## Guest

Oh well that's alright then, you've lived in a Thai apartment block so that's clearly representative of the entire nation. And of course Westerners living in low rent blocks in city suburbs in Europe and the US are clean, immaculate and tidy always.

Anecdotes are pretty worthless. We all have different experiences, and some of us have different agendas. I have one too, but it is to put across a representative view, not a one-sided one, for the sake of a balanced picture on the forum.


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## Serendipity2

Akira said:


> Thanks to oddball for comments.
> I was surprised by some "passivity" (laziness) in different occasions, asking friends explain to me the origins.
> The answer was the same-same "why do more when I have enough?" Ok, and the rubbish around and in your house? Spend 2 hours and clean it. No, it's OK.
> Then, you ask why they don't care about the children future (work more, save money, pay them nice studies), they say my grand-mum didn't study, they don't need it as well.



Akira,

All of us are different. All 6+ Billion of us. I'm sure there are some lazy Thais. There are also very hard working Thais [most Thais]. The same can be said of Americans or any other nationality. There are also people in the world that are not driven by money or accumulating a lot of it and there are some that that's their very reason for existing. They would do anything for money including selling out their own country. I suspect one can make generalizations about various races, religions or ethnicities but in the end "one size" never fits all. 

That said, why worry about what you have no control over? I couldn't change you if I wanted to nor could you change me. Remember, in the end, Thailand is not our country and we are guests. There are many good things to like in Thailand and some perhaps not to like but we're guests. If they laugh at us occasionally why worry? Be glad you brightened someone's day and get on with your life. If they're nasty or rude to you - walk away. Again, we are guests and right or wrong it's their country. I think you will agree that by and large most Thais are courteous, friendly and easy to like. If you don't agree perhaps Thailand is not your cup of tea.

Serendipity2


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## Guest

Well said S2


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## jjk

If it would be true that the majority of Thai's are lazy then I wonder why there are so many Multi-National companies are located in this country. 

The Thai's that I have worked with and are working with contradict this assumption. Give me one lazy Thai and I give you one lazy european.

regards.


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## Guest

oddball said:


> I am in Cambodia !!!!


Oh did you say that you were in Cambodia before? I said I was confused and even more now.

Can't really relate Cambodia to Thailand. Pol Pot, border skirmishes past wars. Thailand arguably being one of the most wealthy country in the region except maybe for Malaysia and obviously not Singapore.
Neither can conditions in or personal views about Thailand from the locals in the borders countries be relied upon due to the wars, the squashing of Thailand between the Brits in Burma to the West and Malaysia to the South and the French to the East in Vietnam, US bombing of Lao from Thailand.
No wonder those folk have been telling akira how bad Thailand is. A bit like asking the Welsh if they prefer England to Wales.


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## Guest

Akira said:


> Thanks to oddball for comments.
> I was surprised by some "passivity" (laziness) in different occasions, asking friends explain to me the origins.
> The answer was the same-same "why do more when I have enough?" Ok, and the rubbish around and in your house? Spend 2 hours and clean it. No, it's OK.
> Then, you ask why they don't care about the children future (work more, save money, pay them nice studies), they say my grand-mum didn't study, they don't need it as well.


A major reason for why the Thais just do enough to get by is because the KING has told them that they only need enough to get by on to be happy. If you watch the TV also you will see many stories showing happy contented poor people contrasted with unhappy, fighting rich people. The moral is you only need enough. They are working in a sustainable way and happy with it. Western folk have been on the treadmill so long they don't even know how to get off the constant and never fulfilled search for more. We are work adicts who like all adicts think that everyone else should be an adict too. Also BKK is the worlds hottest avaerage temperature city and most of Thailand is hotter than the neighboring countries, so it is just too hot to be busy in my experience. I find myself working harder in cold countries than when in hot ones.


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## Akira

Serendipity2 said:


> Akira,
> 
> That said, why worry about what you have no control over? I couldn't change you if I wanted to nor could you change me. Remember, in the end, Thailand is not our country and we are guests.


But, nobody argue with you, you are abso-lu-te-ly right! 
I just said, the *oddball's *comments permit me understand better. I liked his perfectly explained equations about farmers productivity, very well, mate, thanks. I now, I posted some personal feelings (may be wrongs, may be not at all) but it was just feelings. This is different, there are numbers instead of worlds. And here, you can't argue. Buddha speaks with worlds, tax officer speak with numbers.

I don't say it's bad or good, trust me, I would prefer stay on a beach with a double Jack instead running my business in London. 

About a incredible quantity of firms and company's in Thailand, I would say it's all about tax facility and setting up just for permit foreigners own the business, with this incredible hypocrisy of Thai partnership, with the ghosts of "invisible" Thais in the Memorandum, and not because of the increasing number of Thai entrepreneurship.


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## oddball

*aware expats*



happy bunny said:


> A major reason for why the Thais just do enough to get by is because the KING has told them that they only need enough to get by on to be happy. If you watch the TV also you will see many stories showing happy contented poor people contrasted with unhappy, fighting rich people. The moral is you only need enough. They are working in a sustainable way and happy with it. Western folk have been on the treadmill so long they don't even know how to get off the constant and never fulfilled search for more. We are work adicts who like all adicts think that everyone else should be an adict too. Also BKK is the worlds hottest avaerage temperature city and most of Thailand is hotter than the neighboring countries, so it is just too hot to be busy in my experience. I find myself working harder in cold countries than when in hot ones.


After your previous posts I am somewhat surprised at your mention of TV as an indicator of Thai life , if you believe that you will believe anything . Tv in the main is a fantasy world , construed to attract viewers to garner advertising money , the more viewers they draw , the larger the revenue , I thought most people were aware of that .

Ah well , to each his own .:focus:


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## oddball

*aware*



happy bunny said:


> Oh did you say that you were in Cambodia before? I said I was confused and even more now.
> 
> Can't really relate Cambodia to Thailand. Pol Pot, border skirmishes past wars. Thailand arguably being one of the most wealthy country in the region except maybe for Malaysia and obviously not Singapore.
> Neither can conditions in or personal views about Thailand from the locals in the borders countries be relied upon due to the wars, the squashing of Thailand between the Brits in Burma to the West and Malaysia to the South and the French to the East in Vietnam, US bombing of Lao from Thailand.
> No wonder those folk have been telling akira how bad Thailand is. A bit like asking the Welsh if they prefer England to Wales.


Why do you refer to times gone by ? Thai are liked in Cambodia and many come here to work , have a few in the spa beside me , when the Thai goverment talked about flying nationals home because of a spot of bother , they just carried on as normal . It is the Thai who look down on Khmer because they are poor and they were very cruel to refugees fleeing the country , Khmer are a far happier people in general than Thai , why do you think I am here ? I did have a choice you know and glad I made it , but wish I had moved sooner .


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## Guest

oddball said:


> After your previous posts I am somewhat surprised at your mention of TV as an indicator of Thai life , if you believe that you will believe anything . Tv in the main is a fantasy world , construed to attract viewers to garner advertising money , the more viewers they draw , the larger the revenue , I thought most people were aware of that .
> 
> Ah well , to each his own .:focus:


The Thai audiences see the soaps reflecting the way they should be living, and that aligns with what the KING has indicated. 
No one is suggesting that you are seeing an accurate reflection of life on TV, you misread the post again.


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## oddball

*aware*



happy bunny said:


> The Thai audiences see the soaps reflecting the way they should be living, and that aligns with what the KING has indicated.
> No one is suggesting that you are seeing an accurate reflection of life on TV, you misread the post again.


 I read English very well thank you very much , I will say again , if you believe what you see on TV you will believe anything , this concerned the happy , contented villagers they want you to see as apposed to what Thai see in their soaps what they want to see .

:ranger:


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## Guest

oddball said:


> I read English very well thank you very much , I will say again , if you believe what you see on TV you will believe anything , this concerned the happy , contented villagers they want you to see as apposed to what Thai see in their soaps what they want to see .
> 
> :ranger:


Oddball. Never mind just keep on.


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## Serendipity2

oddball said:


> I read English very well thank you very much , I will say again , if you believe what you see on TV you will believe anything , this concerned the happy , contented villagers they want you to see as apposed to what Thai see in their soaps what they want to see .
> 
> :ranger:



oddball,

I couldn't agree more but I think we are seeing just the tip of that old iceberg.

Many years ago Karl Marx opined that religion was the opiate of the masses. That all began to change in the mid-60's with the Vietnam [or, if you're Vietnamese, the American] was. Now the new mantra is "entertainment is the opiate of the masses". 

They are keeping us entertained as they slowly enslave us. In the case of the USA, quickly enslaving us, with massive government spending we can't repay while we bail out crooks and thieves who caused it! And we keep re-electing them. Color us stupid.

Look at entertainment, in the west, as the Russian government does vodka and cigarettes. Keep the slaves happy with their drug of choice. And guess who supplies those drugs. [when I say drugs I'm also including "entertainment" in all its myriad forms. While we are mesmerized by college and professional sports, rock concerts, Tiger Woods, anti-social, misogynistic music and spending our way to oblivion, those who run the world are laughing at us.

Serendipity2


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## Akira

Serendipity2 said:


> Look at entertainment, in the west, as the Russian government does vodka and cigarettes. Keep the slaves happy with their drug of choice.


Did you been to Russia? Do you know the Russian culture? 

It's incredible how the people will say about Thailand "come down, take things easy, understand before speaking" and then, make incredibly brainwashed remarks about another countries! The Rocky IV must be your last information about Russia?


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## Guest

Akira said:


> Did you been to Russia? Do you know the Russian culture?
> 
> It's incredible how the people will say about Thailand "come down, take things easy, understand before speaking" and then, make incredibly brainwashed remarks about another countries! The Rocky IV must be your last information about Russia?


The thing we are trying to achieve on the forum is to help people understand the way Thailand and other countries work. I have a reasonable idea about Thailand now and I love the place. I moved to the USA in 99 and found it to be 180 degrees different to the incorrect image of the US I had been provided with in the UK and which I still see is going strong. Seeing as Russia has been going through so much change and was until recently virtualy closed, it is impossible for outsiders to know what Russia is really like. it would appear that you are saying the image of tough vodka filled guys we have been brought up on is not correct.


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## Serendipity2

Akira said:


> Did you been to Russia? Do you know the Russian culture?
> 
> It's incredible how the people will say about Thailand "come down, take things easy, understand before speaking" and then, make incredibly brainwashed remarks about another countries! The Rocky IV must be your last information about Russia?



Akira,

I've not had the pleasure [nor been able to afford] a trip to Russia - yet - but I do plan to do so one day. I would much like to visit the Hermitage in St. Petersburg and probably the Kremlin - or at least the plaza outside the Kremlin. 

I've had the pleasure of visiting Moldova and Transnistria [Tiraspol] in the Russian 'section' of Moldova. I've also visited Ukraine which I greatly enjoyed. I visited Odessa, Kiev and, my favorite, L'viv near the Polish border. 

Serendipity2


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## oddball

*aware*



happy bunny said:


> The thing we are trying to achieve on the forum is to help people understand the way Thailand and other countries work. I have a reasonable idea about Thailand now and I love the place. I moved to the USA in 99 and found it to be 180 degrees different to the incorrect image of the US I had been provided with in the UK and which I still see is going strong. Seeing as Russia has been going through so much change and was until recently virtualy closed, it is impossible for outsiders to know what Russia is really like. it would appear that you are saying the image of tough vodka filled guys we have been brought up on is not correct.


 So when some-one like myself attempts to round out the help WE GIVE ABOUT tHAI , the one sided view seems to take precedence , this method should be belied with your experience prior to moving to the US of A , should it not ? 

It is late , more tomorrow .


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## oddball

Akira is Russian , he needs to be given some credence for his 'Opinion' , he has lived the life .


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## Guest

Oddball - to 'misread', means to 'misunderstand'. That does not mean you "don't read English well". Any hint of anyone contradicting you in this thread and you overreact. The 'lazy mai pen rai Thais whose smiles are false' (haven't checked back for your exact wording) has been your theme tune since early on in this thread, and every attempt to add a touch of objectivity has been met with indignity. We get the message - Cambodia is your home now, and you prefer it to Thailand. Good for you. Some of us prefer Thailand to Cambodia (me included, on balance). 

As for the Khmers being "far happier", again that kind of sweeping generalisation may not reflect the views of many expats. It doesn't reflect mine for a start. 

Akira - you said at the outset that you hardly know Thailand. If you want to learn about Thailand from those who have lived there, listen to the experiences of all, not just Oddball. The majority of expats love it there, integrate well, and are respected by the Thais, if forum comment is anything to go by. Sure LOS is far from perfect, and there are all kinds of problems. But that's the same wherever you go - anyone turning up expecting Utopia should have stayed at home.


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