# Employment situation news



## Pesky Wesky

I wanted to propse the idea of a sticky about employment where we post real info that we have about the employment situation in our area or Spain, for example like the article that is now a sticky which talks about a mayor raffling the few public employment jobs that come up.
I say this because people often comment on the bad situation in general, but what's happening in your area? Plenty of people in the shops? New businesses opening???
Certainly in the past we've been much criticsed for being too pessimistic and one knowledgeable poster actually left the forum because he didn't see the unemployment situation that others saw in Malaga I think it was.
For my part I've just heard on the radio about a programme in Segovia called Destino Alemania run by the Cámera de Segovia, part of the Chamber of Commerce. They give you some German classes, and set you up with accommodation once you arrive in Germany and help you find work. Now, if that's not a sign of the times, I don't know what is.
Cmara de Segovia.

On the other hand, a new shopping centre opened up about 18 months ago and the car park's always full, and there are queues to get in at the weekend. True, another smaller centre has empty units because this new place has taken custom, but still, some people obviously still have money!

In our Urb. there are houses that have been up for sale for years, and years 3, 4, 5 years. Some have been lucky enough to rent them out, but houses are not moving.

On the other hand, ...
I've recently been looking for work. Reason for looking for work - previous companies have down sized, one company has gone from multinational to national, therefore there's no reason to give company paid English classes.
Of course, there's no shortage of people who want English classes, but they want them cheaper! So, I've got work, but with worse conditions.
But what about those companies...
One company is a construction company who have seen their Spanish market fall, but the international market grow...
Another has been taken over by a British company, so it was going to close, but now is growing..
Another has a string of outlets in Spain and is now looking to open in Europe...
So, it looks to me like Spanish companies are learning to cope with their new situation, are adapting and are coming back!
I certainly hope so.
What do you think??


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## gus-lopez

Everywhere I go around here there doesn't seem to be a shortage of money. Any bar that goes up for sale is bought by Russian's, Poles, Rumanian's. & they are all doing well ! 
One owner has just bought herself a nice new Range-Rover Evoque. There are no empty shops in town ,


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## 213979

Up here I feel like we are finally starting to see the effects of the crisis. My restauranteur friend says people still go out but they spend much less. Here in a small town things don't look too bad but lots of folks work the land. I have to turn down classes but OH was only given a part time contract this year as a public school music teacher. We will see how this year goes...


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Everywhere I go around here there doesn't seem to be a shortage of money. Any bar that goes up for sale is bought by Russian's, Poles, Rumanian's. & they are all doing well !
> One owner has just bought herself a nice new Range-Rover Evoque. There are no empty shops in town ,


Here it's fruit and veg shops that the foreigners open up, well that's the latest craze anyway until most of them close down again and then it'll be a stationery shop or a butcher's or whatever. Here they don't seem to prosper. It's more like people clutching at straws as a last ditch attempt to make money. And the inevitable Chinese shops of course, which have also shown a period of growth in the last two years or so.


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## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> Up here I feel like we are finally starting to see the effects of the crisis. My restauranteur friend says people still go out but they spend much less. Here in a small town things don't look too bad but lots of folks work the land. I have to turn down classes but OH was only given a part time contract this year as a public school music teacher. We will see how this year goes...


They are talking about cutting state teacher's salaries again somehow this year. OH will be paying a fee at the school gate soon!


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## mrypg9

I was chatting to a young Estepona woman at our event last night about the situation in our area. Officially, unemployment is around 34% but as in the UK that masks the true figure as it represents only those registered and there are many more who need to seek work but won't for various reasons be included in the figures.
She was extremely pessimistic about the future especially for young people.
The poster who left was Marbella-based and yes, Marbella is bucking the trend to some extent but the working people of Marbella and those on low wages or in seasonal work might not agree with his upbeat assessment. I find it interesting that James Hewitt's restaurant on the Golden Mile has closed and there are many boaded up shop fronts in Marbella. But I don't go there often so can't really comment.
Yes, shopping centres are packed...but visiting such centres is now a leisure activity in itself and doesn't mean people are buying...they may be merely window-shopping.
According to the Estepons Tourist Department the number of vistors has increased by 70% but I don't know how they reached that figure as it doesn't encompass overnight stays. It seems the amounts visitors are spending in restaurants, bars etc. are lower than last year.

Of course the jobless number will increase sharply in a month or so as this area is heavily dependent on tourism and the season will soon come to an end.


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## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> They are talking about cutting state teacher's salaries again somehow this year. OH will be paying a fee at the school gate soon!


****.
I didnt hear about that.


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## Pesky Wesky

_Una de cal y otra de arena_ as they say (good news and bad news). 
I was at a paellada yesterday and was talking to a very happy (Spanish) Fedex worker. He had had his own company which folded about a year ago and he was left with absolutely NOTHING. He got a sales job in Fedex and they are sending him all round Europe for training; Brussels, Paris and and don't know where else, so obviously it's a wealthy company too. So another story of somebody who was ruined and now has a well paid job in a company which is expanding. As he said Make every Fedex experience outstanding. (OK, so they'd brainwashed him, but still, he has a job!!)
Bad news is that in Torrelavega, Cantabria the workers of Golden Line and Sniace are going to take over the factory floor today, Sunday, as on Monday management will begin the process of laying off all employees.

Sorry, I didn't want this to be underlined, but that's how it came out.

La movilización es previa al encierro en la fábrica que iniciarán los trabajadores de Sniace mañana, domingo, a las tres de la tarde, de cara a la última reunión negociadora del ERE de extinción para toda la plantilla (533 trabajadores), que comenzará a las once de la mañana del lunes. Ambas partes mantienen sus posturas. La dirección amenaza con cerrar la empresa si no se acepta su plan de viabilidad (81 despidos y 146 prejubilaciones), y el comité está dispuesto a negociar todos los recortes que se plantean, incluida una rebaja salarial, siempre que no haya salidas traumáticas.

Los trabajadores de Sniace y Golden Line se concentran ante el Ayuntamiento. eldiariomontanes.es

I'd be very interested to hear what people think the situation is like in other parts of the country like Barcelona, Valencia, Cadiz, Madrid because as I said in my intial post I hear bad figures in the press and bad stats from the government. I know my husband's situation, his family's situation etc, but I also hear that there are companies that are changing and gaining a little.
I'm not saying that I think the country is pulling out of the recession, but maybe there are some of the famous green shoots that will lead to fruition, (as the experts predicted) around 2016/18???


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'd be very interested to hear what people think the situation is like in other parts of the country like Barcelona, Valencia, Cadiz, Madrid because as I said in my intial post I hear bad figures in the press and bad stats from the government. I know my husband's situation, his family's situation etc, but I also hear that there are companies that are changing and gaining a little.
> I'm not saying that I think the country is pulling out of the recession, but maybe there are some of the famous green shoots that will lead to fruition, (as the experts predicted) around 2016/18???


Cadiz is desperate - factory closures and layoffs are much cheaper since the law changed, so all the multinationals who relocated here with EU grants are now moving on. Unemployment is 45% in some towns. The only career opportunities are in drug-running.

Green shoots however in rural tourism and quality food products. Our local cheese producer keeps winning awards and can't get enough organic goats milk to meet the increasing demand!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Cadiz is desperate - factory closures and layoffs are much cheaper since the law changed, so all the multinationals who relocated here with EU grants are now moving on. Unemployment is 45% in some towns. The only career opportunities are in drug-running.
> 
> Green shoots however in rural tourism and quality food products. Our local cheese producer keeps winning awards and can't get enough organic goats milk to meet the increasing demand!


Out of interest....which multinationals have moved on and do you know where they're relocating?

When we went to get Our Little Azor from the breeder in Slovakia there was a huge Peugeot plant in nearby Trnava which gave employment to thousands plus the spin-off for local small businesses in what was a depressed area of a depressed country. Now that plant has relocated I think to Bulgaria but I'm not sure where exactly.

EU grants should be conditional on commitment for a longish period of time. No cutting and running to countries where the workforce is even moore downtrodden, desperate and malleable...and union-free.

Some of my old anger is returning.....I'm beginning to shout at tv screens when certain politicians appear, something I haven't done since the Thatcher years when we kept slippers handy to chuck at the telly when she and *that voice *appeared...


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## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Una de cal y otra de arena as they say (good news and bad news).
> I was at a paellada yesterday and was talking to a very happy (Spanish) Fedex worker. He had had his own company which folded about a year ago and he was left with absolutely NOTHING. He got a sales job in Fedex and they are sending him all round Europe for training; Brussels, Paris and and don't know where else, so obviously it's a wealthy company too. So another story of somebody who was ruined and now has a well paid job in a company which is expanding. As he said Make every Fedex experience outstanding. (OK, so they'd brainwashed him, but still, he has a job!!)
> Bad news is that in Torrelavega, Cantabria the workers of Golden Line and Sniace are going to take over the factory floor today, Sunday, as on Monday management will begin the process of laying off all employees.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't want this to be underlined, but that's how it came out.
> 
> La movilización es previa al encierro en la fábrica que iniciarán los trabajadores de Sniace mañana, domingo, a las tres de la tarde, de cara a la última reunión negociadora del ERE de extinción para toda la plantilla (533 trabajadores), que comenzará a las once de la mañana del lunes. Ambas partes mantienen sus posturas. La dirección amenaza con cerrar la empresa si no se acepta su plan de viabilidad (81 despidos y 146 prejubilaciones), y el comité está dispuesto a negociar todos los recortes que se plantean, incluida una rebaja salarial, siempre que no haya salidas traumáticas.
> 
> Los trabajadores de Sniace y Golden Line se concentran ante el Ayuntamiento. eldiariomontanes.es
> 
> I'd be very interested to hear what people think the situation is like in other parts of the country like Barcelona, Valencia, Cadiz, Madrid because as I said in my intial post I hear bad figures in the press and bad stats from the government. I know my husband's situation, his family's situation etc, but I also hear that there are companies that are changing and gaining a little.
> I'm not saying that I think the country is pulling out of the recession, but maybe there are some of the famous green shoots that will lead to fruition, (as the experts predicted) around 2016/18???


What I don't understand is that, if I understood correctly, Golden Line is moving to Valladolid. 

The Sniace protests have been going on for nearly a year now. I hope they will find a solution but it looks like things are getting ugly.


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## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> What I don't understand is that, if I understood correctly, Golden Line is moving to Valladolid.
> 
> The Sniace protests have been going on for nearly a year now. I hope they will find a solution but it looks like things are getting ugly.


Golden Line already have (several) centres in Valladolid, so maybe some workers are transferring there. They operate call centres so I presume they were involved with Sniace in that way.


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## Navas

mrypg9 said:


> Some of my old anger is returning.....I'm beginning to shout at tv screens when certain politicians appear, something I haven't done since the Thatcher years when we kept slippers handy to chuck at the telly when she and that voice appeared...


I have a very strong memory of my uncle in Paris doing that, only it wasn't Thatcher and before her time anyway.


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## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Golden Line already have (several) centres in Valladolid, so maybe some workers are transferring there. They operate call centres so I presume they were involved with Sniace in that way.


To the best of my knowledge they don't have anything to do with Sniace, apart from being in the same city and in a similar situation.


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## thrax

I once shouted at Thatcher who was appearing on a TV screen in a shop when I was on holiday in the South of France. I remain very proud of myself. Several French folk applauded.


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## Pesky Wesky

Good news first!
The financial publication "Diario Expansion" identified 30 companies that would expand and create work in Spain, so this is where people should be sending their CVs to. They include Zara (of course), Ikea, Burger King, Primark (British??), Ford, Vueling, Jazztel and Alain Affelou! 
Las treinta empresas que crearán empleo e invertirán en España en 2013

But, have you heard about PanRico? They are a very well known Spanish make who produce bread and the famous "donuts". Well, they're not paying their 4000 workers this month.

_The drop in consumer spending as a result of the prolonged economic crisis in Spain has undermined the performance of Panrico, which was acquired by US fund Oaktree in June after loans made to the baker last year were capitalized. Panrico’s main challenge is competition from generic brands, whose prices are much lower._

No dough: baker Panrico


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Cadiz is desperate - factory closures and layoffs are much cheaper since the law changed, so all the multinationals who relocated here with EU grants are now moving on. Unemployment is 45% in some towns. The only career opportunities are in drug-running.
> 
> Green shoots however in rural tourism and quality food products. Our local cheese producer keeps winning awards and can't get enough organic goats milk to meet the increasing demand!


Yes, that's more or less what I thought was happening in Cadiz, unfortunately.


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## 213979

PW, Sniace is firing everyone.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> EU grants should be conditional on commitment for a longish period of time. No cutting and running to countries where the workforce is even moore downtrodden, desperate and malleable...and union-free.
> 
> .


Exactly! So why don't they do it ? Any grant or tax free period should be conditional on remaining there for the next 20 years , whether EU or national money.

It all comes down to the fact that politician's are only in for 4 or 5 years & want a short term voter appeal to get back in. The whole lot needs overturning.


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## gus-lopez

This lad explains why there is going to be a whole generation missing from spain unless they can find a way to generate employment allowing those that they have paid to educate , to return.

Spaniard becomes voice of country's 'lost generation' - Telegraph


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## zenkarma

gus-lopez said:


> It all comes down to the fact that politician's are only in for 4 or 5 years & want a short term voter appeal to get back in. The whole lot needs overturning.


Yes! Same problem in the UK, it's all short termism designed to win another 4-5 years in office. Nothing will change until this system is broken.

I've already put forward my views on how it should be broken, but people don't agree with me.


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## gus-lopez

i received a news email from a site this morning with a link showing this;
"According to a new report by Spanish think tank Fundación Alternativas (Spanish link), more than 700,000 people—equivalent to roughly 1.5% of Spain’s population—have left the country since 2008. Since 2011, Spain has seen more people emigrate to other countries than arrive. That’s especially surprising given that Spain’s statistics bureau (INE) puts the number closer to 200,000."

Now I believe them. rather than the INE .as yesterday I was reading that there are now circa 250k spanish with national insurance numbers in the UK, makes the INE 200k seem stupid, & the real figure is possibly 50% higher again. 
Spain is losing people a lot faster than it thinks – Quartz

If that amount have gone in 5 years & , if it continued, it doesn't bode well for the future.
It used to be unheard of around here for anyone to be working abroad. Now you hear it from people everywhere you go.


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## Alcalaina

Spain's new US ambassador, James Costos, has promised American help to create new jobs in Spain.

I wonder what he has in mind? Not more fast food outlets I hope. 

El nuevo embajador de EEUU promete ayudar a crear empleo en españa


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## thrax

Twice we've had the misfortune of having to suffer a child's birthday party at Burger King. It was simply revolting. I don't remember them being that bad in UK - not good but not that bad...


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> Twice we've had the misfortune of having to suffer a child's birthday party at Burger King. It was simply revolting. I don't remember them being that bad in UK - not good but not that bad...


I had one once, in a shopping centre where there was literally no other place to eat and I was ravenous.

Next time I'll go and find me some road-kill.


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## baldilocks

gus-lopez said:


> i received a news email from a site this morning with a link showing this;
> "According to a new report by Spanish think tank Fundación Alternativas (Spanish link), more than 700,000 people—equivalent to roughly 1.5% of Spain’s population—have left the country since 2008. Since 2011, Spain has seen more people emigrate to other countries than arrive. That’s especially surprising given that Spain’s statistics bureau (INE) puts the number closer to 200,000."
> 
> Now I believe them. rather than the INE .as yesterday I was reading that there are now circa 250k spanish with national insurance numbers in the UK, makes the INE 200k seem stupid, & the real figure is possibly 50% higher again.
> Spain is losing people a lot faster than it thinks – Quartz
> 
> If that amount have gone in 5 years & , if it continued, it doesn't bode well for the future.
> It used to be unheard of around here for anyone to be working abroad. Now you hear it from people everywhere you go.


It wasn't so long ago that we had an advertorial kicking around that even made it into the UK's national media to the effect that over a million Brits were going back to Blighty - total rubbish of course especially as the actual sample questioned was very small and the actual quote was "% of those who responded..." and amounted to less than 10% of the original small sample.


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## Pesky Wesky

Panrico of donuts fame is doing badly...
Spanish baker Panrico plans to lay off 1,900 workers | In English | EL PAÍS

On the other hand this article talks about how some 
companies which have looked abroad to export their goods and services are doing well,which is something I mentioned in an earlier post. (Article from April I think.)
Spain’s crisis fades as exports transform economy | Financial Post


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## gus-lopez

Yes & goodluck to them. They wouldn't have looked abroad if the crisis hadn'tcome but now they have , & are doing well, let's hope that others do the same.

I noticed this at the bottom of the page.
Billionaires Dumping Stocks, Economist Knows Why

Let us hope it stays over there if it happens.


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## kimuyen

Interestingly though, Carnival wants to build a terminal in Barcelona for 26M USD projected to be open in 2016
http://m.travelweekly.com/3_article?guid=252843

Also, "If all goes according to plan, ground will break before the end of this year for Europe’s first gaming mega resort, with investors envisaging a $6-billion project covering almost 1,500 acres with six casino-hotels totaling 18,000 rooms. Dubbed BCN World, the project, which is an hour’s drive south of Barcelona on the Mediterranean Sea, is expected to open in 2016." 
Mega resorts march on Europe

Perhaps all foreign investments (assuming they will move forward) will expedite Spain to "economic equilibrium" sooner rather than later.

P.S.: For those of you complaining about the joy of Burger King and the likes imported from the US, consider yourselves lucky! It may hit you once or twice in your life time. We, the unfortunately ones, are still living in the kingdom of it all and are invited to kid birthday parties at these venues a few times a year.


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## Pesky Wesky

kimuyen said:


> Also, "If all goes according to plan, ground will break before the end of this year for Europe’s first gaming mega resort, with investors envisaging a $6-billion project covering almost 1,500 acres with six casino-hotels totaling 18,000 rooms. Dubbed BCN World, the project, which is an hour’s drive south of Barcelona on the Mediterranean Sea, is expected to open in 2016."
> Mega resorts march on Europe
> 
> .


Connected to this project is the Eurovegas project in Madrid
The toing and froing about the Eurovegas has been going on for about 2 years now with Sheldonwhatever his name is making a number of demands to the city council. It appears he has won another victory recently and smoking will be allowed in the complex. He was going to withdraw if it wasn't.

The Euro vegas project is extremely polemic with doubt being raised about the ecological impact, the site, the kind of business it will generate, worries about drugs and prostitution, the type of employment that will come from it...
My own thoughts are if it's done properly, with the correct policing and security, with thought going into the construction and the road plans, parking etc it could be a successful project which benefits the area.
Odds on that that's not going to happen though!
I dread to think how many brown envelopes have alrready changed hands to ensure that Sheldon "chose" Madrid over other sites that he was looking at.
Sheldon Adelson’s Las Vegas Sands Corporation, the U.S. casino group with extensive experience in the United States and Asia, is planning  another massive, casino-hotel project just outside the Spanish capital, which the local press has christened “EuroVegas” although the resort’s official name has yet to be decided.
- See more at: Mega resorts march on Europe


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## Pesky Wesky

News in English about the latest unemployment figures (Sept 2013)_

According to figures released Wednesday by the Labor Ministry, the number of people officially registered as unemployed rose by 25,572 to 4.724 million, the least pronounced upward turn for the month since 2007. In September of last year jobless claims climbed by 79,645. Unemployment normally increases in the month as temporary hiring for the main tourist season lapses.

....

However, the apparent improvement in the labor market was largely owing to the more precarious forms of employment. The number of permanent contracts awarded in September was down 9 percent from a year earlier and accounted for only 7.7 percent of the total number of contracts. The number of temporary contracts climbed 11 percent. There was also an increase in part-time contracts._

Jobless claims rise in September after end of summer tourism season | In English | EL PAÍS


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## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> News in English about the latest unemployment figures (Sept 2013)_
> 
> According to figures released Wednesday by the Labor Ministry, the number of people officially registered as unemployed rose by 25,572 to 4.724 million, the least pronounced upward turn for the month since 2007. In September of last year jobless claims climbed by 79,645. Unemployment normally increases in the month as temporary hiring for the main tourist season lapses.
> 
> ....
> 
> However, the apparent improvement in the labor market was largely owing to the more precarious forms of employment. The number of permanent contracts awarded in September was down 9 percent from a year earlier and accounted for only 7.7 percent of the total number of contracts. The number of temporary contracts climbed 11 percent. There was also an increase in part-time contracts._
> 
> Jobless claims rise in September after end of summer tourism season | In English | EL PAÍS


What happens when paro runs out? Does one still need to be registered unemployed and 'visit' them every so often? Also, when they get a job (ha, ha!) are the authorities supposed to be notified?


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## Madliz

Heaven knows what the unofficial, or should I say 'real' unemployment rate is. I am not in employment, nor registered. My daughter down south has had no job since June but has not worked long enough to be entitled to paro, so she is not registered either. The true figure of those without work must be mind boggling.


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## Pesky Wesky

The Panrico story in English.
The past
What happens to workers when companies decide not to pay? | In English | EL PAÍS
Present and future
Panrico to reinstate pay after union talks


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## Pesky Wesky

Fagor, part of the Mondragon co operative which I've mentioned in other threads, is in trouble. This affects the north of Spain which up till now was doing much better than the rest of Spain when referring to unemployment.

_...The Polish offshoot's filing at a court in the northern Spanish city of San Sebastian did not affect the status of the parent Fagor Electromesticos, which is part of the sprawling Basque cooperative Mondragon.
But it raised fears among Fagor workers in the Basque country, where the company says it employs 2,000 people directly and supports the same number of jobs indirectly.
...
Fagor announced on October 16 that it had launched initial proceedings towards bankruptcy protection while it tried to refinance its debt, which a source within the company said was 800 million euros ($1.1 billion).
Under Spanish bankruptcy rules, Fagor has four months from that date to try to raise funds, but the source told AFP its fate could be determined much sooner in the absence of financing from Mondragon...
_
And Mondragon has said that it won't be financing them any more. Unfortunately this is probably the first crack in the Mondragon "Empire"_Despite its international presence, Mondragon's cooperative structure has kept most of its jobs and production at home, with 35,000 employees in the Spanish Basque Country, 35,000 elsewhere in Spain and about 13,500 abroad._
_Most of its workers are partners in the firm, voting to elect the bosses and make sensitive decisions._

In English
NewsDaily: Major Spain appliance-maker Fagor risks bankruptcy

In Spanish
Fagor, en la recta final | Opinión | EL PAÍS


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## Brangus

Help-Wanted Ad Shows Depths Of Spain's Unemployment Problem : Parallels : NPR

Excerpts from a news item last week on National Public Radio (U.S.A.):

_Having trouble wrapping your head around southern Europe's staggering unemployment problem? Look no further than a single Ikea furniture store on Spain's Mediterranean coast.

The Swedish retailer plans to open a new megastore next summer near Valencia. On Monday, Ikea's Spanish website started taking applications for 400 jobs at the new store.... Within 48 hours, more than 20,000 people had applied online for those 400 jobs. The volume crashed Ikea's computer servers in Spain....

Once Ikea gets its servers back up and running, the job application window will still stay open until Dec. 31, allowing potentially tens of thousands more job seekers to file applications...._


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## kimuyen

Brangus said:


> Help-Wanted Ad Shows Depths Of Spain's Unemployment Problem : Parallels : NPR
> 
> Excerpts from a news item last week on National Public Radio (U.S.A.):
> 
> On Monday, Ikea's Spanish website started taking applications for 400 jobs at the new store.... Within 48 hours, more than 20,000 people had applied online for those 400 jobs.....
> 
> Once Ikea gets its servers back up and running, the job application window will still stay open until Dec. 31, allowing potentially tens of thousands more job seekers to file applications....[/I]


Sadly, that is not unique to Spain though. Here is the news from the stable D.C. job market in the US. And Walmart has never been a dream company to work for. The unemployment rate in the US has dropped to about 7% (vs. >25% in Spain). Even so...

"_The stores [Walmart] will hire a combined 600 associates after combing through the more 23,000 applications its received from potential employees_..."

Walmart to Open First D.C. Stores Dec. 4 | NBC4 Washington


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## gus-lopez

snikpoh said:


> What happens when paro runs out? Does one still need to be registered unemployed and 'visit' them every so often? Also, when they get a job (ha, ha!) are the authorities supposed to be notified?


Yes ,here you still have to register , every 3 months, even when receiving nothing if you want to be available for any jobs that might come up.


Yes ,you have to notify them if you find work & attend , having made a previous appointment, to 'sign off'. 

& yes , don't laugh, According to the 'unemployment card ' you are given failure to sign off , for whatever reason, finding job, fed up with queuing to sign with no prospect of work, failure to attend on given date or within a few days of that date etc; carries a fine !


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## mrypg9

Meanwhile, unemployment in the UK has fallen to 7%.
And Brits still hope to find work in Spain...


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## el pescador

would take the uk figures with a pinch of salt....in January Romania and Bulgaria can take advantage of free movement.


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## mrypg9

el pescador said:


> would take the uk figures with a pinch of salt....in January Romania and Bulgaria can take advantage of free movement.


They are the current figures. Th impact of further EU migration is as yet unknown.


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## el pescador

mrypg9 said:


> They are the current figures. Th impact of further EU migration is as yet unknown.


your trusting 

re the movement issue.
The uk will be a prime target because of its lax benefit laws.
employers will no doubt take on a lot of the cheaper workers too.


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## mrypg9

el pescador said:


> your trusting
> 
> re the movement issue.
> The uk will be a prime target because of its lax benefit laws.
> employers will no doubt take on a lot of the cheaper workers too.


I agree about employers taking advantage to lower wage rates. But the PM recently announced new curbs on benefits for economic migrants.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> I agree about employers taking advantage to lower wage rates. But the PM recently announced new curbs on benefits for economic migrants.


Which the EU have already said would be illegal unless applied to nationals as well.
It took the rumanian or Bulgarian minister to point out some home truths at the weekend, which should have been spoken by the UK's own Mp's, when she said that it was the fault of the UK in being far to generous with benefits for their own nationals allowing them to become idle,lazy ,workshy scroungers. 

You can't believe any figures given out by any official organisation. They all manipulate them to suit the circumstances. Which takes me back to a point I made on another thread. If I cannot believe them & have to investigate & find out the correct info myself , why am I paying these people's wages ?

If the UK unemployed is at 7% , just over 2 million ,then where are the missing 8 million ?
There's 12 million pensioners & the same U-18's,+ 30 million working = 54 million out of 64 million population. +2 million U/employed = large amount missing.
Yes they are all hidden on incapacity, disability, fall into a medical category where they are deemed " not available for work" etc; etc; etc.

" It is not that you have lied to me,
I am sad that in the future I can no 
longer have any confidence in you " 
Friedrich Nietzsche


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Which the EU have already said would be illegal unless applied to nationals as well.
> It took the rumanian or Bulgarian minister to point out some home truths at the weekend, which should have been spoken by the UK's own Mp's, when she said that it was the fault of the UK in being far to generous with benefits for their own nationals allowing them to become idle,lazy ,workshy scroungers.
> 
> You can't believe any figures given out by any official organisation. They all manipulate them to suit the circumstances. Which takes me back to a point I made on another thread. If I cannot believe them & have to investigate & find out the correct info myself , why am I paying these people's wages ?
> 
> If the UK unemployed is at 7% , just over 2 million ,then where are the missing 8 million ?
> There's 12 million pensioners & the same U-18's,+ 30 million working = 54 million out of 64 million population. +2 million U/employed = large amount missing.
> Yes they are all hidden on incapacity, disability, fall into a medical category where they are deemed " not available for work" etc; etc; etc.
> 
> " It is not that you have lied to me,
> I am sad that in the future I can no
> longer have any confidence in you "
> Friedrich Nietzsche


And of course:
'There are lies, damned lies and statistics'.

P.S. I am mortified to learn that your name isn't really Gus. It's a name I like...


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> And of course:
> 'There are lies, damned lies and statistics'.
> 
> P.S. I am mortified to learn that your name isn't really Gus. It's a name I like...


On a local forum I use when I buy & sell stuff I've given up using my real name on pm's as they all still call me Gus ! :lol: 
I quite like it now, it has grown on me !


----------



## angil

Talking of employment in Spain I don't suppose anyone has read anything in the Spanish newspapers with regards the PEMEX projects at the shipyards in Galicia? We are still hoping for a delay rather than a cancellation. I am guessing the hundreds of Spanish shipyard workers feel the same!? This would not happen in Asia (which is why European, incl UK, shipyards lie empty and Asian yards are overflowing).


----------



## angil

Pemex says Spanish-built flotels still in its plans | Fox News Latino

Found it!! So still just 'delayed' then! Oh well!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Fagor, part of the Mondragon co operative which I've mentioned in other threads, is in trouble. This affects the north of Spain which up till now was doing much better than the rest of Spain when referring to unemployment.
> 
> _...The Polish offshoot's filing at a court in the northern Spanish city of San Sebastian did not affect the status of the parent Fagor Electromesticos, which is part of the sprawling Basque cooperative Mondragon.
> But it raised fears among Fagor workers in the Basque country, where the company says it employs 2,000 people directly and supports the same number of jobs indirectly.
> ...
> Fagor announced on October 16 that it had launched initial proceedings towards bankruptcy protection while it tried to refinance its debt, which a source within the company said was 800 million euros ($1.1 billion).
> Under Spanish bankruptcy rules, Fagor has four months from that date to try to raise funds, but the source told AFP its fate could be determined much sooner in the absence of financing from Mondragon...
> _
> And Mondragon has said that it won't be financing them any more. Unfortunately this is probably the first crack in the Mondragon "Empire"_Despite its international presence, Mondragon's cooperative structure has kept most of its jobs and production at home, with 35,000 employees in the Spanish Basque Country, 35,000 elsewhere in Spain and about 13,500 abroad._
> _Most of its workers are partners in the firm, voting to elect the bosses and make sensitive decisions._
> 
> In English
> NewsDaily: Major Spain appliance-maker Fagor risks bankruptcy
> 
> In Spanish
> Fagor, en la recta final | Opinión | EL PAÍS


BUT....
_Winning El Gordo tickets this year were sold in at least eight locations throughout the country, including Madrid, Barcelona and the northern industrial city of Modragon, where electrical appliance manufacturer Fagor Electrodomesticos filed for bankruptcy in October.
_
http://news.yahoo.com/recession-hit-spain-holds-huge-christmas-lottery-115737019.html


----------



## webmarcos

An interesting Twitter feed to follow is that of @Workea

Just some of the positive jobs news it's retweeted today alone:

Brico Depôt will create 130 jobs en 2014
Brico Depôt crea 130 puestos de trabajo en Sevilla

Vector to hire 600 professionals in the tech sector
Vector contratará a 600 profesionales del sector tecnológico

Carrefour looking at taking on 1,500 workers in 2014
En 2014 Carrefour prevé incorporar a 1.500 trabajadores

Tommy Mels looking to take on 350 new workers in 2014
Tommy Mel


----------



## Madliz

My son sent me the link to this article: 

El PP aprueba convertir en "inmigrantes sin papeles" a todos losESPAÑOLES que pasen más de 90 días en el extranjero - Periódico Alternativo

It seems you are damned if you do (stay here with no job) and damned if you don't (and go and seek work elsewhere). The government's short-termism never ceases to amaze me these days. People who have taken matters into their own hands, dug deep and gone abroad and found work are invaluable to Spain on their return, with new skills and experience. This new rule, if it goes through, might just make them stay put and Spain will be poorer in many ways because of that.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

webmarcos said:


> An interesting Twitter feed to follow is that of @Workea
> 
> Just some of the positive jobs news it's retweeted today alone:
> 
> Brico Depôt will create 130 jobs en 2014
> Brico Depôt crea 130 puestos de trabajo en Sevilla
> 
> Vector to hire 600 professionals in the tech sector
> Vector contratará a 600 profesionales del sector tecnológico
> 
> Carrefour looking at taking on 1,500 workers in 2014
> En 2014 Carrefour prevé incorporar a 1.500 trabajadores
> 
> Tommy Mels looking to take on 350 new workers in 2014
> Tommy Mel


Wow, that's a lot of jobs!!
Pity that not more of them are aimed at highly qualified candidates, but even so, that's great news

PS Thanks very much for this as I've sent on the info about Tony Mels on to a young man who's in the catering /hotel trade and is looking for something


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Madliz said:


> My son sent me the link to this article:
> 
> El PP aprueba convertir en "inmigrantes sin papeles" a todos losESPAÑOLES que pasen más de 90 días en el extranjero - Periódico Alternativo
> 
> It seems you are damned if you do (stay here with no job) and damned if you don't (and go and seek work elsewhere). The government's short-termism never ceases to amaze me these days. People who have taken matters into their own hands, dug deep and gone abroad and found work are invaluable to Spain on their return, with new skills and experience. This new rule, if it goes through, might just make them stay put and Spain will be poorer in many ways because of that.


My daughter sent it on to me yesterday!
Is not approved already as it's published in the BOE?
What happens in other countries about health care?


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> My daughter sent it on to me yesterday!
> Is not approved already as it's published in the BOE?
> What happens in other countries about health care?


Yes you are right it says it was already published in the BoE.
In the UK as long as you retain an address no one really bothers . Technically I believe that over 6 months out & you are meant to notify them.
I note in that article though that they state that 600,000 left last year !!! That's more than the 250k they were claiming only a few weeks back. & 800,000 went between 2008-20012.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> My daughter sent it on to me yesterday!
> Is not approved already as it's published in the BOE?
> What happens in other countries about health care?


in the UK, once you leave you are no longer entitled to healthcare there for as long as you live abroad - although that is changing in April & in certain circumstances you will be

if you return to live there, as long as you can prove that you are becoming resident again you are again entitled to healthcare (under current rules)


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> in the UK, once you leave you are no longer entitled to healthcare there for as long as you live abroad - although that is changing in April & in certain circumstances you will be
> 
> if you return to live there, as long as you can prove that you are becoming resident again you are again entitled to healthcare (under current rules)


So, maybe it's not so shocking???
But if you stayed here and didn't try to make a better life for yourself abroad you'd still be covered. Is that right?


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, maybe it's not so shocking???
> But if you stayed here and didn't try to make a better life for yourself abroad you'd still be covered. Is that right?



 not sure I understand


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> not sure I understand


Maybe it's not so shocking as people in other countries lose their rights to health care in their country of origen too if they are out of the country for an extended period.
However, many of the Spaniards who've gone abroad are people who are looking for work. They are people who were unemployed here, but as I understand, were still covered for healthcare. If they go abroad to study or work they lose that right to healthcare, whereas if they'd stayed here they would have remained covered. Or isn't that right???


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Maybe it's not so shocking as people in other countries lose their rights to health care in their country of origen too if they are out of the country for an extended period.
> However, many of the Spaniards who've gone abroad are people who are looking for work. They are people who were unemployed here, but as I understand, were still covered for healthcare. If they go abroad to study or work they lose that right to healthcare, whereas if they'd stayed here they would have remained covered. Or isn't that right???


Yes, that is right. But the vast majority ,say from the UK ,don't bother telling anyone & no one bothers asking. They can only disenfranchise the Spansih , if the Spanish tell them they are going, surely ? 
Additionally all that will happen is that on their return , if they return,from whatever country they have been working in , they will have healthcare using the EHIC from said country until they find a job ! :rofl:


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Maybe it's not so shocking as people in other countries lose their rights to health care in their country of origen too if they are out of the country for an extended period.
> However, many of the Spaniards who've gone abroad are people who are looking for work. They are people who were unemployed here, but as I understand, were still covered for healthcare. If they go abroad to study or work they lose that right to healthcare, whereas if they'd stayed here they would have remained covered. Or isn't that right???


now I understand

I think the difference, if the proposal goes through, is that Spaniards won't have any automatic right to healthcare upon their return to Spain? They'd have to get a job contract or pay into the system in another way, just as immigrants do 

returning UK citizens do get automatic care, really. They have to prove that they are staying (rental contract for instance) - but that's it - then they get healthcare 

but then so do ALL legal residents of the UK - it's a different system (although again that's changing slightly in April)


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, that is right. But the vast majority ,say from the UK ,don't bother telling anyone & no one bothers asking. They can only disenfranchise the Spansih , if the Spanish tell them they are going, surely ?
> Additionally all that will happen is that on their return , if they return,from whatever country they have been working in , they will have healthcare using the EHIC from said country until they find a job ! :rofl:


That's true, how will the authorities know if they've been out of the country?


----------



## baldilocks

We have a number of friends who are either studying abroad or go to work a broad for periods that sometimes may exceed 90days so I have forwarded the info to them.

Thank you for the heads up


----------



## gus-lopez

The only 2 ways I can think of is one; they were signed on & notified the social that they were signing off & giving the reason . Two; there is a register , apparently, of " Espanoles trabajando fuera del Pais" that you can sign on.This apparently then allows you not to have to declare every year whilst working abroad, amongst other things. I saw reference to it in an article some months back where they stated that in Andalucai 'only' 2500 persons had signed the register.


----------



## GUAPACHICA

xabiachica said:


> now I understand
> 
> I think the difference, if the proposal goes through, is that Spaniards won't have any automatic right to healthcare upon their return to Spain? They'd have to get a job contract or pay into the system in another way, just as immigrants do
> 
> returning UK citizens do get automatic care, really. They have to prove that they are staying (rental contract for instance) - but that's it - then they get healthcare
> 
> but then so do ALL legal residents of the UK - it's a different system (although again that's changing slightly in April)


Hi - thanks. Is it definite that the British Govt. will implement those changes in April?

Would said changes mean that, in future, UK Residency, alone, would no longer qualify, automatically, any individual (native or otherwise) to access 'free' NHS Healthcare? 
Would* all* UK residents (temporary or permanent) need to demonstrate either a current/past level of financial contribution to the country's Social Security system or possession of an EU Health Card?

I had believed, prior to recent changes in UK Law re. migrants, that the Govt.'s primary aim was to enable British citizens, living abroad, to have a continued right of access to NHS Healthcare, provided they'd paid N.I. contributions for a minimum of seven years, previously. Now, i'm very concerned that the NHS might become, wholly, a 'Contributions-based' Healthcare system, with implications which have not, IMO, yet been considered, sufficiently...!

Re. Spain; I cannot see how Spanish citizens, returning from a period abroad in another EU state, could be expected to use an ECIH card, issued by their temporary host country, once resident back in Spain. I am certain that the UK Govt. would not pay up, on their behalf, for any health costs so incurred! 

So, I wonder whether this new Spanish legislation might yet prove to be illegal under EU Law. We EU citizens have the right to move, within Europe, in search of work. The decision by Spain's Govt. to categorise as _'Immigrants without papers'_ any Spaniards who return home to live, after more than 90 days, having taken advantage of this EU right, could be deemed _coercive,_ surely? 

BTW, I did check out the very interesting link below (embedded within the text of the newspaper article posted by the originator of this thread): 

Guía para (intentar) no perder la tarjeta sanitaria si te vas alextranjero - Periódico Alternativo

This article does address some of the queries raised by OPs within this thread.The comments by readers, listed beneath these articles, are, also, worth noting...!

Thanks to the OP who has brought this issue to our attention - it's astonishing to know that this Spanish Govt. has chosen to legislate, in effect, to hamper opportunities for its citizens to seek and locate temporary work abroad, given current unemployment statistics within their country! IMO, such disenfranchisement could only be considered incredibly cruel, uncaring and offensive by those affected!

Saludos,
GC


----------



## gus-lopez

Under the new proposals in the UK , is it still anyone who has paid in for 7 years or more has entitlement to healthcare ? 
Gc , I read the article & the comments ! 
A thought occurred to me that if in the original article , they are stating that some 1,400,000 people have now left to work abroad since 2008, then they cannot obviously be included in the current unemployed total ; therefore when added in would make the jobless amount even more staggering !


----------



## xabiaxica

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - thanks. Is it definite that the British Govt. will implement those changes in April?
> 
> Would said changes mean that, in future, UK Residency, alone, would no longer qualify, automatically, any individual (native or otherwise) to access 'free' NHS Healthcare?
> Would* all* UK residents (temporary or permanent) need to demonstrate either a current/past level of financial contribution to the country's Social Security system or possession of an EU Health Card?
> 
> I had believed, prior to recent changes in UK Law re. migrants, that the Govt.'s primary aim was to enable British citizens, living abroad, to have a continued right of access to NHS Healthcare, provided they'd paid N.I. contributions for a minimum of seven years, previously. Now, i'm very concerned that the NHS might become, wholly, a 'Contributions-based' Healthcare system, with implications which have not, IMO, yet been considered, sufficiently...!
> 
> Re. Spain; I cannot see how Spanish citizens, returning from a period abroad in another EU state, could be expected to use an ECIH card, issued by their temporary host country, once resident back in Spain. I am certain that the UK Govt. would not pay up, on their behalf, for any health costs so incurred!
> 
> So, I wonder whether this new Spanish legislation might yet prove to be illegal under EU Law. We EU citizens have the right to move, within Europe, in search of work. The decision by Spain's Govt. to categorise as _'Immigrants without papers'_ any Spaniards who return home to live, after more than 90 days, having taken advantage of this EU right, could be deemed _coercive,_ surely?
> 
> BTW, I did check out the very interesting link below (embedded within the text of the newspaper article posted by the originator of this thread):
> 
> Guía para (intentar) no perder la tarjeta sanitaria si te vas alextranjero - Periódico Alternativo
> 
> This article does address some of the queries raised *by OPs within this thread*.The comments by readers, listed beneath these articles, are, also, worth noting...!
> 
> Thanks to the OP who has brought this issue to our attention - it's astonishing to know that this Spanish Govt. has chosen to legislate, in effect, to hamper opportunities for its citizens to seek and locate temporary work abroad, given current unemployment statistics within their country! IMO, such disenfranchisement could only be considered incredibly cruel, uncaring and offensive by those affected!
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


what the new UK regs are saying is that immigrants will have to pay/contribute a certain amount per year for a certain amount of time in order to access healthcare (sorry - no time to check the exact numbers atm)

since even UK citizens living abroad will be able to access healthcare (as long as they have paid NI for 7 years) in the UK I can't see how that could apply to them should they return to the UK to live




& yes, the comments by other posters on this thread - and the comments on the article are interesting - but there's only one *OP* to this thread - the *O*riginal *P*oster


----------



## xabiaxica

for anyone who reads Spanish & is interested in how unemployment affects young Spanish people - & what some of them will do to overcome it - here's a blog written by a young girl from my town of Jávea/Xàbia - & we're pretty lucky that unemployment isn't dreadfully high here


La subasta de mi vida: MARÍA


----------



## Sirtravelot

xabiachica said:


> for anyone who reads Spanish & is interested in how unemployment affects young Spanish people - & what some of them will do to overcome it - here's a blog written by a young girl from my town of Jávea/Xàbia - & we're pretty lucky that unemployment isn't dreadfully high here
> 
> 
> La subasta de mi vida: MARÍA


Quite dreadful. No matter how bad the youth has it in Northern Europe, southern Europeans have it at least twice as hard.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Just the latest unemployment figures


----------



## Pesky Wesky

And here's youth unemployment


----------



## ZFord

gus-lopez said:


> Yes ,here you still have to register , every 3 months, even when receiving nothing if you want to be available for any jobs that might come up.
> 
> 
> Yes ,you have to notify them if you find work & attend , having made a previous appointment, to 'sign off'.
> 
> & yes , don't laugh, According to the 'unemployment card ' you are given failure to sign off , for whatever reason, finding job, fed up with queuing to sign with no prospect of work, failure to attend on given date or within a few days of that date etc; carries a fine !


Having worked as a 'seasonal worker' for 7 years previously I have never heard of anyone having to sign off once your contract starts again. When your employer registers your signed contract with their Gestoria, you are automatically signed off. I am now lucky enough to have been working for over a year so this could be a new requirement I wasn't aware of.

The unemployment situation in Seville seems to be just as bad as elswhere in Andalucia but most young people leave for seasonal work in the Balearics or Canaries and return in winter with their money saved. I know where I live many young people are taking advantage of cheap property prices and buying houses in their hometowns and working away for seasonal work to pay the mortgage (myself included!).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> Having worked as a 'seasonal worker' for 7 years previously I have never heard of anyone having to sign off once your contract starts again. When your employer registers your signed contract with their Gestoria, you are automatically signed off. I am now lucky enough to have been working for over a year so this could be a new requirement I wasn't aware of.
> 
> The unemployment situation in Seville seems to be just as bad as elswhere in Andalucia but most young people leave for seasonal work in the Balearics or Canaries and return in winter with their money saved. I know where I live many young people are taking advantage of cheap property prices and buying houses in their hometowns and working away for seasonal work to pay the mortgage (myself included!).


So, hang on a minute. You earn enough in the Balearics to be able not only to support yourself the whole year, but also to pay off a mortgage?
What kind of work and where, please tell!?


----------



## ZFord

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, hang on a minute. You earn enough in the Balearics to be able not only to support yourself the whole year, but also to pay off a mortgage?
> What kind of work and where, please tell!?


Between me and my boyfriend we did. I am now living in Seville all year round but he still goes back for summer until he finds a good job here. Also, I live in a very small town and our house was a reposession through the bank so we got it VERY cheap. My other half is a waiter in a very busy restaurant and works 12 hour days without a day of except for July and August whe its too hot not to have a day of.

We dont eat out at restaurants, we are not able to be into the latest fashions and buy too many new clothes, our car is 17 years old, we grow our veg, and we've saved for years. Its not been easy but we have managed it. We are renovating our house bit by bit and its by no means finished. There is lots of negativity about living in Spain and although it is very difficult at the moment, its by no means impossible.


----------



## mrypg9

ZFord said:


> Between me and my boyfriend we did. I am now living in Seville all year round but he still goes back for summer until he finds a good job here. Also, I live in a very small town and our house was a reposession through the bank so we got it VERY cheap. My other half is a waiter in a very busy restaurant and works 12 hour days without a day of except for July and August whe its too hot not to have a day of.
> 
> We dont eat out at restaurants, we are not able to be into the latest fashions and buy too many new clothes, our car is 17 years old, we grow our veg, and we've saved for years. Its not been easy but we have managed it. We are renovating our house bit by bit and its by no means finished. There is lots of negativity about living in Spain and although it is very difficult at the moment, its by no means impossible.


It's not negativity, it's realism, though.
You obviously are willing to accept long hours and a lifestyle that you say is ' not easy', that is your choice.
Others might think that there is more to life and by that I don't mean more material possessions.
For you, buying your own home was very important and you were willing to put up with long working hours. But that cannot coexist easily with a family life.
Not everyone would be willing to live that kind of life where work is central and that does not mean they are lazy or lack motivation or 'negative'. It just means they have different priorities.
I owned my own home, more than one, in fact, but if I had hsd to work twelve hour seven day weeks to get them I would have stayed in a rented flat and taken a low paid job with less stress and more time do the things I enjoy.
It's about values and I would choose differently. A house is a possession like clothes and cars, really.
There is an interesting discussion about the work culture and the very real distinction between negativity and realism on another thread.


----------



## thrax

But what ZFord and her boyfriend have achieved is to be applauded. Too many people think they are owed a living, have little money but still find enough to buy tobacco and alcohol and then complain they can't afford to eat. I'm not saying that they shouldn't buy such things, just people shouldn't complain if the way they choose to spend their money leaves them without other things. So, I applaud ZFord!!!


----------



## angil

So do I Thrax! Good on them! I am getting a distinctive damned if you do and damned if you don't type vibe!


----------



## mrypg9

angil said:


> So do I Thrax! Good on them! I am getting a distinctive damned if you do and damned if you don't type vibe!


Well, I don't know where from.
If someone is prepared to work long hours to achieve what they want, good luck to them.
But that doesn't imply moral superiority or that those who would not choose that course are lazy or that empty word'negative'.
Some might view the fact that society is now so constructed that nearly all your waking life has to be spent working to achieve a roof over your head and food on the table as an indictment, not a cause for celebration.

As a postscript:'my partner worked those twelve hour days, often even longer, seven days a week, fifty- two weeks a year..admittedly with more material reward but no time to enjoy it. This is not a lifestyle to recommend. I know, I've seen its effects. Stress, ill- health..that's par for the course. 
One day, she decided enough was enough. A split- second decision. Rat races are for rats.

Some people put work first to get a foot on the first rung of the ladder. Others do it to climb higher up the ladder.
It's a choice with no moral value either way. It is a reflection of priorities.
Our culture has made a god out of work. Not everyone wishes to worship at the altar.


----------



## angil

I rest my case!


----------



## thrax

I have no complaints about how anyone chooses to live their lives; yesterday, outside an Aldi, a beggar was having an argument with a passer-by. From what I could understand the beggar was furious that the passer-by had not offered her any money. The passer-by hurried away looking a bit frazzled. The beggar immediately took out her Samsung Galaxy 5 and called a friend, perhaps to complain about how life was treating her??


----------



## ZFord

mrypg9 said:


> It's not negativity, it's realism, though.
> You obviously are willing to accept long hours and a lifestyle that you say is ' not easy', that is your choice.
> Others might think that there is more to life and by that I don't mean more material possessions.
> For you, buying your own home was very important and you were willing to put up with long working hours. But that cannot coexist easily with a family life.
> Not everyone would be willing to live that kind of life where work is central and that does not mean they are lazy or lack motivation or 'negative'. It just means they have different priorities.
> I owned my own home, more than one, in fact, but if I had hsd to work twelve hour seven day weeks to get them I would have stayed in a rented flat and taken a low paid job with less stress and more time do the things I enjoy.
> It's about values and I would choose differently. A house is a possession like clothes and cars, really.
> There is an interesting discussion about the work culture and the very real distinction between negativity and realism on another thread.


We are by no means 'material' people. In my reply I mentioned all the things we went without such as a new car, eating out etc. We simply did it in order to buy our house before while we could (beforewe start a family) so that we can enjoy our life when we do have children one day.

And my negativity comment, I simply meant that people are often quick to say that living is Spain is very difficult and often discourage others from moving here. I am very rewlistic and understand that things are certainly far from easy here, but I simply wanted to say that it is not impossible to make a life for yourself here.

Where we live, many young people are doing the same as we are. They work away wnd buy houses in their hometowns so that one day when things change and there are more jobs closer to home, they move back and start families etc.


----------



## ZFord

thrax said:


> But what ZFord and her boyfriend have achieved is to be applauded. Too many people think they are owed a living, have little money but still find enough to buy tobacco and alcohol and then complain they can't afford to eat. I'm not saying that they shouldn't buy such things, just people shouldn't complain if the way they choose to spend their money leaves them without other things. So, I applaud ZFord!!!


Thanyou Thrax!


----------



## Lynn R

thrax said:


> But what ZFord and her boyfriend have achieved is to be applauded. Too many people think they are owed a living, have little money but still find enough to buy tobacco and alcohol and then complain they can't afford to eat. I'm not saying that they shouldn't buy such things, just people shouldn't complain if the way they choose to spend their money leaves them without other things. So, I applaud ZFord!!!


Me too! This thinking used to be commonplace when I got married in my early 20s. We bought a small house with a mortgage we could afford, got furniture passed on to us from parents, stopped wasting money on expensive nights out and too many clothes, etc. I didn't see buying a house as an investment in those days, so much as making sure I would always have a roof over my head which was bought and paid for, and I'd rather pay my own mortgage than somebody else's by renting.

The stepping off the ladder, opting out of the rat race, whatever you like to call it, came later. Once you've assured your financial stability and provided for your future you can think about slowing down.


----------



## mrypg9

ZFord said:


> We are by no means 'material' people. In my reply I mentioned all the things we went without such as a new car, eating out etc. We simply did it in order to buy our house before while we could (beforewe start a family) so that we can enjoy our life when we do have children one day.
> 
> And my negativity comment, I simply meant that people are often quick to say that living is Spain is very difficult and often discourage others from moving here. I am very rewlistic and understand that things are certainly far from easy here, but I simply wanted to say that it is not impossible to make a life for yourself here.
> 
> Where we live, many young people are doing the same as we are. They work away wnd buy houses in their hometowns so that one day when things change and there are more jobs closer to home, they move back and start families etc.


But life in Spain IS very difficult and people with little hope of finding jobs surely should be discouraged from moving here, surely?

I understand why you are doing what you are doing. I just wish that you didn't have to do it by working such long hours. I hope life will be easier for you when you start a family. My fear is that the long hours low wage culture will be a permanent feature of life.


----------



## mrypg9

Are we really agreeing that working 357 days out of 365 is a good thing??
My point is simply this: it may be necessary for some people to be able to achieve what they want but is a society where this is seen as desirable the kind of society we should applaud?

Thrax...does your anecdote make the point that all beggars are frauds? Mind you, I rarely if ever give to beggars.


----------



## Pazcat

mrypg9 said:


> But life in Spain IS very difficult and people with little hope of finding jobs surely *should be discouraged from moving here, surely*?


Absolutely not, never would I be presumptuous enough to tell another how to live their life.

It may not be the best decision on their part or even a wise move but all you can do is inform them and let a person make their own mind up which is far removed from discouraging a person although I see it all the time.



> Are we really agreeing that working 357 days out of 365 is a good thing?


You do what you have to do, if the alternative is doing nothing then I know which I'd choose.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Me too! This thinking used to be commonplace when I got married in my early 20s. We bought a small house with a mortgage we could afford, got furniture passed on to us from parents, stopped wasting money on expensive nights out and too many clothes, etc. I didn't see buying a house as an investment in those days, so much as making sure I would always have a roof over my head which was bought and paid for, and I'd rather pay my own mortgage than somebody else's by renting.
> 
> The stepping off the ladder, opting out of the rat race, whatever you like to call it, came later. Once you've assured your financial stability and provided for your future you can think about slowing down.


But that is irrelevant to the point I'm making, surely. We all did what you describe to get started in life...but under different circumstances. Society wasn't always as it is today. 
No- one I knew had to move away from their partner and work twelve hour days 357 days a year to get started in life.
Now it seems there is a school of thought that says not only is this some kind of norm but that it is a Good Thing with the implication that those who choose not to opt for this life are morally reprehensible.
Why stop work at seventy, if work is such a good thing in itself?

You and I were trades unionists and therefore promoting a healthy work/ life balance. 
A society and an economy that obliges people of anyage to devote such an enormous proportion of their livesto work is surely one lacking in human value.


----------



## thrax

mrypg9 said:


> Thrax...does your anecdote make the point that all beggars are frauds? Mind you, I rarely if ever give to beggars.


Absolutely not - there is one beggar I am aware of outside an Eroski City and I know she is genuine so I do give her my trolley euro and she is very grateful, unlike the Aldi fraud who thinks it is her right to receive gifts.


----------



## mrypg9

Pazcat said:


> Absolutely not, never would I be presumptuous enough to tell another how to live
> 
> 
> 
> You do what you have to do, if the alternative is doing nothing then I know which I'd choose.


Nor would I . People must choose. They need facts to be able to make a wise choice, though.

As for doing what you HAVE to do...you miss my point. Yes, I know, some people do have to do it. But that is different from choosing, although yes, some people do choose that lifestyle. 
I'm saying it's not something to applaud. It's a situation forced on too many people.
Long working hours lead to stress, health problems and family breakdown. Those are facts.
We had the choice of continuing to spend our lives working and chose not to. When I was young I too worked at two jobs to,earn money to buy my first house. But that was my choice. I could have managed with one job but it would have taken longer and 
I would have needed a mortgage. I don't like debt so I bought my house out of savings from those long hours and a small quickly repaid bank loan.


Life hasn't always been like it hasfor the past thirty years. In my view, young people shouldn't have to work long hours to achieve basic things like a roof of their own over their heads.
You sum it up neatly by saying that's what they have to do and I agree. But it's not a good thing, as I see it. 
The alternative is not 'doing nothing', the alternative is having a sensible work- life balance.

.


----------



## Pazcat

mrypg9 said:


> You sum it up neatly by saying that's what they have to do and I agree. But it's not agoodthing, as I see it.
> 
> .


I agree with you but it doesn't change anything. Unfortunately.

Heck I'd even argue a family with both parents working simple 9 to 5 job has done irreversible damage to the family unit and on a larger scale society itself. But it's the norm these days and you will be assimilated unless you can get out of it.
I don't believe in work to live or live to work if it can be helped, then again I'm not keen on starving either.


----------



## mrypg9

Pazcat said:


> I agree with you but it doesn't change anything. Unfortunately.
> 
> Heck I'd even argue a family with both parents working simple 9 to 5 job has done irreversible damage to the family unit and on a larger scale society itself. But it's the norm these days and you will be assimilated unless you can get out of it.
> I don't believe in work to live or live to work if it can be helped, then again I'm not keen on starving either.


You have understood my point, thanks for that
Yes, it's the norm and a bad one. Hopefully people will get to the stage where they say Ya basta and we'll have a new and better norm.

Thinking about extending the working age to seventy: this week a report alleged that the majority of British people are obese and likely to succumb to various life- shortening diseases. So much for enjoying longer retirement, then.

Work until seventy....next we'll be putting twelve- year olds to work and encouraging them to emigrate if they can't find work at home..
And there will be people who see it as the 'norm', just as there were in Victorian times.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> Between me and my boyfriend we did. I am now living in Seville all year round but he still goes back for summer until he finds a good job here. Also, I live in a very small town and our house was a reposession through the bank so we got it VERY cheap. My other half is a waiter in a very busy restaurant and works 12 hour days without a day of except for July and August whe its too hot not to have a day of.
> 
> We dont eat out at restaurants, we are not able to be into the latest fashions and buy too many new clothes, our car is 17 years old, we grow our veg, and we've saved for years. Its not been easy but we have managed it. We are renovating our house bit by bit and its by no means finished. There is lots of negativity about living in Spain and although it is very difficult at the moment, its by no means impossible.


Thanks for the information which makes things a bit clearer.

I'm not getting into whether you should be applauded or not! 

I just wanted to say that a little bit of context changes the information considerably. When you first mentioned work it could have been interpreted as - we go to an attractive place, spend the summer working, go back to Seville to our house and spend the winter there.
Now we know that long hours, good planning, gardening and savings come in to it.
The complete picture is different to what might have been understood at first.
I've never said it's impossible to live in Spain, but I do think it's hard, I think you have to adapt and find your place. If you expect to work as a carer, hairdresser, painter, or floor fitter, if you think that you can do all that in an exclusively English environment and if you think you can support two or three children on the salary, and if you think that you'll get a 12 month salary...
well that's when I think it's probably not going to work.
Would you agree?


----------



## mrypg9

Thinking about actively 'discouraging ' people from coming as opposed to giving facts: I can think of two cases where I would have actively discouraged, had I had the opportunity.
Both involved single mothers with young - age around eight to nine - daughters, both women with no real skills. 
They lived in rented flats they couldn't afford. One moved into a one- room 'studio' holiday let, she slept on the floor, her daughter on the one rickety bed. Then they had to move out of that and are living in one room in a small house with some South Americans. Neither woman had secure, continuous, legal employment.
The other woman moved from one flat to another, not paying rent, breaking in and squatting.
The effect on the children can be imagined.
So yes, I would have tried to dissuade these women from moving themselves and their offspring to Spain had they been my friends.

Is there anyone who wouldn't have?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> Between me and my boyfriend we did. I am now living in Seville all year round but he still goes back for summer until he finds a good job here. Also, I live in a very small town and our house was a reposession through the bank so we got it VERY cheap. My other half is a waiter in a very busy restaurant and works 12 hour days without a day of except for July and August whe its too hot not to have a day of.
> 
> We dont eat out at restaurants, we are not able to be into the latest fashions and buy too many new clothes, our car is 17 years old, we grow our veg, and we've saved for years. Its not been easy but we have managed it. We are renovating our house bit by bit and its by no means finished. There is lots of negativity about living in Spain and although it is very difficult at the moment, its by no means impossible.


BTW
This thread is for people who want to know what life is really like in Spain, so maybe you could find the time to post on here?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/374305-stories-life-spain-4.html


----------



## ZFord

mrypg9 said:


> But that is irrelevant to the point I'm making, surely. We all did what you describe to get started in life...but under different circumstances. Society wasn't always as it is today.
> No- one I knew had to move away from their partner and work twelve hour days 357 days a year to get started in life.
> Now it seems there is a school of thought that says not only is this some kind of norm but that it is a Good Thing with the implication that those who choose not to opt for this life are morally reprehensible.
> Why stop work at seventy, if work is such a good thing in itself?
> 
> You and I were trades unionists and therefore promoting a healthy work/ life balance.
> A society and an economy that obliges people of anyage to devote such an enormous proportion of their livesto work is surely one lacking in human value.


Its seasonal worm so we do if for a maximum of 7 months a year. My boyfriend doesn't have to work without a day of he does it out of choice. Of course in an ideal world we wouldn't uave to be apart solong bt the alternative is to be without the ability to pay or bills!


----------



## xabiaxica

ZFord said:


> Its seasonal worm so we do if for a maximum of 7 months a year. My boyfriend doesn't have to work without a day of he does it out of choice. Of course in an ideal world we wouldn't uave to be apart solong bt the alternative is to be without the ability to pay or bills!


that's why I work really hard & long hours - to keep a roof over my & my kids' heads & food on our table

& I'd have to do that wherever we lived (maybe not the UK though, with the benefit system - but I wouldn't want to live like that) 


the vast majority of people who come on this forum though, say that they want to move to Spain for a better 'quality of life' or 'to spend more time as a family'

when you have kids & _need_ to work here, that just won't happen - yes, on days off the weather is usually better so you can get out & about or even just sit on the beach - but that, for me, is one day a week - & my kids are teens now & have their own lives - & I usually end up catching up with washing, cleaning - or sleep!

& that's if you're lucky enough to have work - it doesn't matter how much the sun shines if you're skint & can't pay the bills


----------



## ZFord

Pesky Wesky said:


> BTW
> This thread is for people who want to know what life is really like in Spain, so maybe you could find the time to post on here?
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/374305-stories-life-spain-4.html


Nt sure if I've misread your post (I hope I have!) but are your implying that I don't know what I'm talking about?


----------



## xabiaxica

ZFord said:


> Nt sure if I've misread your post (I hope I have!) but are your implying that I don't know what I'm talking about?


no.... she'd like you to post your experiences there


----------



## ZFord

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks for the information which makes things a bit clearer.
> 
> I'm not getting into whether you should be applauded or not!
> 
> I just wanted to say that a little bit of context changes the information considerably. When you first mentioned work it could have been interpreted as - we go to an attractive place, spend the summer working, go back to Seville to our house and spend the winter there.
> Now we know that long hours, good planning, gardening and savings come in to it.
> The complete picture is different to what might have been understood at first.
> I've never said it's impossible to live in Spain, but I do think it's hard, I think you have to adapt and find your place. If you expect to work as a carer, hairdresser, painter, or floor fitter, if you think that you can do all that in an exclusively English environment and if you think you can support two or three children on the salary, and if you think that you'll get a 12 month salary...
> well that's when I think it's probably not going to work.
> Would you agree?


 My apologies but I've only just seen this reply.......I would agree 100%. I think people should be made aware of the difficulties of living in Spain and should be made aware of the realities they face once they arrive here. I just wanted to offer a different perspective from my point of view and experiences. I was replying to a thread about work experiences in Spain but my comments seem to have stirred a bit of a hornets nest (which I promise, was never my intention). Let me just clarify and then I won't reply to any more posts......

I used to work seasonal work in Mallorca but now live and work permanently in a small town in Seville where housing is very cheap. My boyfriend is Spanish and is from the town where we live but there I no work here and many people leave to work away and he will continue to do so until things change and work is available. When we both worked in Mallorca ridiculous hours because we were saving to buy a house. We were able to put a substantial deposit down and therfore have lower repayments to make.

This was our desicion and I don't regret it for a moment. Neither of us have families who can help us out financially no matter how much they would like to and without a lottery win I don't see any other way apart from old fashioned hard work!

I would never presume to suggest that how I live my life is the best way nor would I expect anyone else to presume the same. I simply wanted to offer another perspective from someone who is making life in Spain work for them.


----------



## baldilocks

We both worked long hours and hard to ensure that we could now live here in Spain with a house fully paid for and not have financial worries which is what, for me, is what a happy and contented retirement is all about. It also enables us to be able to look after and support SWMBO's mother who has no pension of her own, such is the American system.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> I would never presume to suggest that how I live my life is the best way nor would I expect anyone else to presume the same. I simply wanted to offer another perspective from someone who is making life in Spain work for them.


Neither would I, and I don't think I have!

I saw your post, took a double take and thought - hey maybe I've go the wrong idea about life in Sevilla and that part of Spain which is why I asked you for more info. The truth is that I don't have the wrong idea, and what you wrote IMHO, needed more explanation which you have now given, so thanks for that.

You have a lot of experience of living in Spain, and if you feel like it, I'm sure people who are already here, and those that are coming, would appreciate hearing your point of view as the forum is a work of collaboration and sharing, not one of one opinion dominating or one of competition to see who has the "best" advice.

As I think has already been mentioned people don't usually give opinions that are intentionally negative; we merely, or at least I, talk about the Spain that I know. (I've also been living here for some years and I'm also working )

The hornets nest if there is one, wasn't stirred by you I don't think.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> Nt sure if I've misread your post (I hope I have!) but are your implying that I don't know what I'm talking about?



I hope you're clear now that what I said was what I meant - if you have time it would be appreciated that you write something on the "Life in Spain" thread.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> But that is irrelevant to the point I'm making, surely. We all did what you describe to get started in life...but under different circumstances. Society wasn't always as it is today.
> No- one I knew had to move away from their partner and work twelve hour days 357 days a year to get started in life.
> Now it seems there is a school of thought that says not only is this some kind of norm but that it is a Good Thing with the implication that those who choose not to opt for this life are morally reprehensible.
> Why stop work at seventy, if work is such a good thing in itself?
> 
> You and I were trades unionists and therefore promoting a healthy work/ life balance.
> A society and an economy that obliges people of anyage to devote such an enormous proportion of their livesto work is surely one lacking in human value.


I'm not sure that the circumstances were all that different really. Yes, jobs were much more plentiful at that time. However, interest rates were at 15% then, and I knew plenty of people who had to take on evening and/or weekend jobs, in addition to their full time ones, in order to be able to save up a deposit for a house or pay their mortgage once they'd got one. I knew quite a lot who had to move away from where they were brought up in order to get a decent job too, or go to work offshore away from their families to earn enough to support them.

No, it wouldn't be a good thing at all for people to have to work those hours or live away from their families for their entire working lives. But I don't see any harm in it for young people to enable them to get a foot on the ladder, my problem is more with those who keep on and on doing it, wrecking their health in the process, even though they surely have enough money not to - but for some, enough is never enough.

One thing I find heartening about Zoe and her partner's situation is that they have been able to buy a repossessed property that they probably wouldn't have been able to afford before the recession. If anything good at all can come out of this awful situation, it is that at least some of the properties now available at knockdown prices can go to young couples wanting them as an eventual family home, rather than greedy property speculators waiting like vultures to snap them up.


----------



## mrypg9

ZFord said:


> Its seasonal worm so we do if for a maximum of 7 months a year. My boyfriend doesn't have to work without a day of he does it out of choice. Of course in an ideal world we wouldn't uave to be apart solong bt the alternative is to be without the ability to pay or bills!


Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing the right thing for you and I admire your grit.
I just think it's wrong that you have to do it this way.
Admittedly I'd do it myself if were young and wanted something badly. That's what I did to be able to buy my first house loan-free. There were times I did a day's work then sat up all night dooing an urgent piece of translation for collection next morning.
My main point was that I chose to do that as I am debt abhorrent...it's an oldie thing Many people nowadays don't have that choice.
If I had a magic wand I'd make life easier for you and all young people starting out..and older people too.
We've handed down a rotten kind of society to the younger generation, really...


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I'm not sure that the circumstances were all that different really. Yes, jobs were much more plentiful at that time. However, interest rates were at 15% then, and I knew plenty of people who had to take on evening and/or weekend jobs, in addition to their full time ones, in order to be able to save up a deposit for a house or pay their mortgage once they'd got one. I knew quite a lot who had to move away from where they were brought up in order to get a decent job too, or go to work offshore away from their families to earn enough to support them.
> 
> No, it wouldn't be a good thing at all for people to have to work those hours or live away from their families for their entire working lives. But I don't see any harm in it for young people to enable them to get a foot on the ladder, my problem is more with those who keep on and on doing it, wrecking their health in the process, even though they surely have enough money not to - but for some, enough is never enough.
> 
> One thing I find heartening about Zoe and her partner's situation is that they have been able to buy a repossessed property that they probably wouldn't have been able to afford before the recession. If anything good at all can come out of this awful situation, it is that at least some of the properties now available at knockdown prices can go to young couples wanting them as an eventual family home, rather than greedy property speculators waiting like vultures to snap them up.


Things have changed since the late sixties/early seventies, though. There certainly was more choice and also more opportunities for people too. Of course not everything in the garden was rosy, far from it for some, but there wasn't this awful pressure on people as there is today. 
Youth unemployment was nothing like it is now.
OK, so we didn't have as many material things but in many respects quality of life was better. In those days there was such a thing as society, neighbourhoods were settled, family life was more stable. If people want to move away that's good...Sandra and I both did. But we did it from choice, of our free will and not because there were no job opportunities in our home areas.
It's the fact that whole areas of the UK and Spain have been devastated by the recession so people are obliged to move away to find work, whether they want to or not.
If I were young and couldn't find work in my area, I'd move anywhere to find employment. I'm not a lazy person.You do what you have to. That's my point. Now we live in a society where the economy is a thing apart that we adjust our lives to. As someone wrote, we have a market society, not a market economy. The economy is no longer embedded in our social life, it is separate and dictates our lives. Surely that can't be a good thing...well, it isn't. Drug and alcohol abuse, rising crime levels, broken families, a diminishing sense of social responsibility, the 'greed is good' ethos....these are the new facts of life.

You're right about repossessions...although those repossessed properties may have belonged to evicted Spanish families, of course.
I'd like to see local authorities stepping in to buy them to let at affordable rents...when I mentioned this to a local PP Concejal he stared at me as if I were mad...


----------



## ZFord

Pesky Wesky said:


> Neither would I, and I don't think I have!
> 
> I saw your post, took a double take and thought - hey maybe I've go the wrong idea about life in Sevilla and that part of Spain which is why I asked you for more info. The truth is that I don't have the wrong idea, and what you wrote IMHO, needed more explanation which you have now given, so thanks for that.
> 
> You have a lot of experience of living in Spain, and if you feel like it, I'm sure people who are already here, and those that are coming, would appreciate hearing your point of view as the forum is a work of collaboration and sharing, not one of one opinion dominating or one of competition to see who has the "best" advice.
> 
> As I think has already been mentioned people don't usually give opinions that are intentionally negative; we merely, or at least I, talk about the Spain that I know. (I've also been living here for some years and I'm also working )
> 
> The hornets nest if there is one, wasn't stirred by you I don't think.


Thankyou


----------



## Lynn R

Another small decrease in the number of people registered as unemployed last month, and an increase in the number of people paying Social Security contributions:-


El paro baja por sexto mes en marzo y el empleo sube en 83.984 afiliados | Economía | EL PAÍS

No doubt to be taken with the usual shovel full of salt regarding statistics.


----------



## GUAPACHICA

*Yet More Bad News for Spanish Migrants*

Hi - this is from _'The Local_' - an English language 'online' newspaper:

Jobless Spaniards to be kicked out of Germany - The Local 

It seems, very sadly, but unsurprisingly, that many of those hopeful, young Spaniards who left their homes to look for work in other EU countries have been unsuccessful! 

It's so incredibly hard for this generation, often described, nowadays, as being '_lost_', to make its way, as this savage economic Crisis remains entrenched in Spain!

So, what can possibly be their fate, on their return? No wonder the recent national youth protest was claimed for '_Dignidad'_ _(Dignity_)!


Saludos,
GC


----------



## Pesky Wesky

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - this is from _'The Local_' - an English language 'online' newspaper:
> 
> Jobless Spaniards to be kicked out of Germany - The Local
> 
> It seems, very sadly, but unsurprisingly, that many of those hopeful, young Spaniards who left their homes to look for work in other EU countries have been unsuccessful!
> 
> It's so incredibly hard for this generation, often described, nowadays, as being '_lost_', to make its way, as this savage economic Crisis remains entrenched in Spain!
> 
> So, what can possibly be their fate, on their return? No wonder the recent national youth protest was claimed for '_Dignidad'_ _(Dignity_)!
> 
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


I think you posted on the wrong thread GC...


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you posted on the wrong thread GC...


I've moved it to where I'm guessing it was meant to be


----------



## Alcalaina

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - this is from _'The Local_' - an English language 'online' newspaper:
> 
> Jobless Spaniards to be kicked out of Germany - The Local
> 
> It seems, very sadly, but unsurprisingly, that many of those hopeful, young Spaniards who left their homes to look for work in other EU countries have been unsuccessful!
> 
> It's so incredibly hard for this generation, often described, nowadays, as being '_lost_', to make its way, as this savage economic Crisis remains entrenched in Spain!
> 
> So, what can possibly be their fate, on their return? No wonder the recent national youth protest was claimed for '_Dignidad'_ _(Dignity_)!
> 
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


"Kicked out" is a bit strong, they will lose their benefits after being unemployed for a certain time. Britain will soon be doing the same thing, a measure popular with the electorate. Far more people _do_ find work.

There was an example on TV here of a firm taking €250 from the unemployed as "expenses" for finding them a job overseas. It was a scam and they never saw their money again. That is just obscene.


----------



## mrypg9

I'm guessing the German electorste like the Dutc,h, Belgian and British, doesn't like paying taxes to support jobless foreigners.

Like it or not, call it 'racist' if you will, , that perception pushes them to right- wing anti- EU Parties like The FN and UKIP.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> "Kicked out" is a bit strong, they will lose their benefits after being unemployed for a certain time. Britain will soon be doing the same thing, a measure popular with the electorate.* Far more people do find work.*


But do they?
I read a report recently, and I think I posted a link on a previous thread about how many come back to Spain within the year not having found anything. Anybody got info on that??
Meanwhile here's an article that talks about the number of Spaniards and immigrants who are leaving Spain. (There's no mention of expats as they are included in the immigrants number in case anyone's looking for that info.)
El número de españoles que emigra crece casi un 30% en un año
Article from Dec 2013
In a year the number of Spaniards emigrating has grown by 30%.
The opening sentence of the article reads
*There are fewer Spaniards living in Spain and far fewer immigrants *


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> But do they?
> I read a report recently, and I think I posted a link on a previous thread about how many come back to Spain within the year not having found anything. Anybody got info on that??


Well, according to the article GC posted, "By the last quarter of 2013, 59,241 Spanish nationals in Germany had a job while 6,592 didn’t." So that indicates that most DO find work, though of course it's tough on those who don't.


----------



## mrypg9

I'd be interested in what kind of work and how much earned per hour.
This 'any kind of work is better than none' philosophy is becoming pernicious and a recipe for a race to the bottom.


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Well, according to the article GC posted, "By the last quarter of 2013, 59,241 Spanish nationals in Germany had a job while 6,592 didn’t." So that indicates that most DO find work, though of course it's tough on those who don't.


But how many of the 59k were potentially workers and not _amas de casa_ or children?

There are also the seasonal workers who move from country to country with the work (typically agricultural) as and where they are needed. We have our own who go to France, Germany, Switzerland (Olives, grapes, apples, etc) and it isn't just for fruit-picking, they go to tend the grapevines, etc as well.


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> There are also the seasonal workers who move from country to country with the work (typically agricultural) as and where they are needed. We have our own who go to France, Germany, Switzerland (Olives, grapes, apples, etc) and it isn't just for fruit-picking, they go to tend the grapevines, etc as well.


Yes, and as little as 4/5 years ago who was doing all of that work? Non Spaniards. Who does the menial work in a country usually tells a story, and when it's the countries own nationals that are cleaning, picking and behind bars it's usually an indication that the country's not doing that well.


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## Pesky Wesky

Well here's the latest folks

Mapa del paro: visualizando la EPA por provincias

Spanish labor market continued to shed jobs in first quarter of 2014 | In English | EL PAÍS
Extracts from the article


> The jobless rate in March reached 25.93%, 0.2% higher than at the end of 2013. This rise has occurred despite a slight drop in the number of jobless (2,300), which is due solely to the fact that people have dropped out of the labor force and are no longer seeking employment. In one year, the labor force has shrunk by 424,500 people





> Households where all members are out of a job rose by 53,100 in the first quarter, up 2.7% from the three previous months.


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well here's the latest folks
> 
> Mapa del paro: visualizando la EPA por provincias


Very good but that is only those who are claiming paro and doesn't include those who either don't claim or are not eligible.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well here's the latest folks
> 
> Mapa del paro: visualizando la EPA por provincias
> 
> Spanish labor market continued to shed jobs in first quarter of 2014 | In English | EL PAÍS
> Extracts from the article


All the various statistics which seem to come out every couple of weeks seem to be quite contradictory.

Wasn't it only at the beginning of this month that figures were published saying that 80-odd thousand more people had started paying social security contributions? Who are these people? Those who are taking advantage of the reduced autonomo rates for a limited period, perhaps (and having a stab at being self-employed if they can't find a job, thinking they could hardly be any worse off?).

I still find it rather hard to believe the apparent willingness of people to keep on spending, though, in the face of these dispiriting figures. We are into the Comuniones season here now, last Saturday and Sunday there were big crowds of family groups, all dressed in their best with the youngsters celebrating their first communion in those ridiculous costumes (which aren't cheap) coming out of the churches, and later in the day I passed 4 different restaurants just between home and the shops which had been booked for communion parties, celebration cakes being carried in and some had bouncy castles booked for the children. I realise three-quarters of the population isn't unemployed, but I would have thought that people might still be too nervous of losing their jobs to keep on spending on what to me would be non-essentials.


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## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> All the various statistics which seem to come out every couple of weeks seem to be quite contradictory.
> 
> Wasn't it only at the beginning of this month that figures were published saying that 80-odd thousand more people had started paying social security contributions? Who are these people? Those who are taking advantage of the reduced autonomo rates for a limited period, perhaps (and having a stab at being self-employed if they can't find a job, thinking they could hardly be any worse off?).
> 
> I still find it rather hard to believe the apparent willingness of people to keep on spending, though, in the face of these dispiriting figures. We are into the Comuniones season here now, last Saturday and Sunday there were big crowds of family groups, all dressed in their best with the youngsters celebrating their first communion in those ridiculous costumes (which aren't cheap) coming out of the churches, and later in the day I passed 4 different restaurants just between home and the shops which had been booked for communion parties, celebration cakes being carried in and some had bouncy castles booked for the children. I realise three-quarters of the population isn't unemployed, but I would have thought that people might still be too nervous of losing their jobs to keep on spending on what to me would be non-essentials.


Unfortunately religious "obligations" reign supreme and one has to hold one's head up with the subsequent celebration or be thought "poor". We are lumbered with going to one next month but there is no way we can get out of it, other than feigning illness and having just about got rid of five weeks of la gripa, no thank you, I don't want to tempt fate (I could always have a migraine though).


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> All the various statistics which seem to come out every couple of weeks seem to be quite contradictory.
> 
> Wasn't it only at the beginning of this month that figures were published saying that 80-odd thousand more people had started paying social security contributions? Who are these people? Those who are taking advantage of the reduced autonomo rates for a limited period, perhaps (and having a stab at being self-employed if they can't find a job, thinking they could hardly be any worse off?).
> 
> I still find it rather hard to believe the apparent willingness of people to keep on spending, though, in the face of these dispiriting figures. We are into the Comuniones season here now, last Saturday and Sunday there were big crowds of family groups, all dressed in their best with the youngsters celebrating their first communion in those ridiculous costumes (which aren't cheap) coming out of the churches, and later in the day I passed 4 different restaurants just between home and the shops which had been booked for communion parties, celebration cakes being carried in and some had bouncy castles booked for the children. I realise three-quarters of the population isn't unemployed, but I would have thought that people might still be too nervous of losing their jobs to keep on spending on what to me would be non-essentials.


I'm confused too, as many of us are.
As far as facts and figures go perhaps it depends on who's giving the info. The info I posted links to comes from the INE (National Statistics Institute for those who don't know those initials). Maybe the stuff about more people paying SS came from the government. I do get the impression that now, as we are near voting time for the European Elections that politicians are just saying whatever they think people want to hear with absolutely no truth behind it whatsoever. Ana Botella in Madrid has said that she has a plan for the city. I haven't seen any evidence of her having a plan so far in her time as mayor, so why should she have one now?

In my town the mayor has announced the execution of a plan which has been in the pipeline for about 20 years to build a shopping centre and housing complex in a field which at this moment is full of grass, cows and encina trees. There are shopping centres of various sizes in every town around us and the only one that doesn't have closed shops is an enormous one built just a couple of years ago and that has taken away all the business which every other centre of this type had. He says it's going to create employment...


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## anles

baldilocks said:


> Very good but that is only those who are claiming paro and doesn't include those who either don't claim or are not eligible.


They *do* include those who are not claiming as long as they are registered as unemployed. However, they do *not* include those who are doing courses run by the INEM regardless of whether they are claiming benefit or not, which is one of the reasons the figures drop in April and in August when the courses usually start.


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## Pesky Wesky

anles said:


> They *do* include those who are not claiming as long as they are registered as unemployed. However, they do *not* include those who are doing courses run by the INEM regardless of whether they are claiming benefit or not, which is one of the reasons the figures drop in April and in August when the courses usually start.


But, do you think the majority continue to sign on?


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## Madliz

I don't sign on as I know I'm not entitled to any benefits, so what's the point. Likewise my daughter. How many thousands are there like us?


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## mrypg9

Piece in today's El Pais claims number of unemployed has increased in the first quarter of 2014' with 2000 jobs lost each day.
It also comments on the lower quality of jobs on offer.


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## anles

Pesky Wesky said:


> But, do you think the majority continue to sign on?


Of course. If people stopped signing on that would be great for the government, the figures would drop. Many people sign on so they can do courses and because a long-term unemployed person is more likely to be taken on than someone who has signed on more recently and there are benefits for a company who takes on someone who is registered as unemployed, when I started working in an estate agency I wasn't registered as unemployed as I had been back to college to retrain and before I signed my contract I had to go and register as unemployed. When you do a course, although you are de-registered for the duration of the course, you maintain the original date you signed on the first time. However, if you happen to work, even one day, you lose this.


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## Lynn R

anles said:


> Of course. If people stopped signing on that would be great for the government, the figures would drop. Many people sign on so they can do courses and because a long-term unemployed person is more likely to be taken on than someone who has signed on more recently and there are benefits for a company who takes on someone who is registered as unemployed, when I started working in an estate agency I wasn't registered as unemployed as I had been back to college to retrain and before I signed my contract I had to go and register as unemployed. When you do a course, although you are de-registered for the duration of the course, you maintain the original date you signed on the first time. However, if you happen to work, even one day, you lose this.


Wouldn't people also continue to sign on because they need to be registered unemployed to be eligible for help from the bancos alimentarios and comedores sociales, for example, or to be able to apply for temporary posts which are offered from tiime to time by the Ayuntamientos (ours took on lots of people for a 3-month period in November 2013)?


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## Lynn R

More proof (as if we needed it) that the unemployment situation in the UK is rather different than the Government would have us believe, and the number of people on zero hours contracts is now more than twice as many as previously estimated, at 1.4million. These people aren't sharing in the strong economic growth the coalition keeps banging on about.


Zero-hours contracts: 1.4m in the UK, ONS says | UK news | theguardian.com


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## Pesky Wesky

anles said:


> Of course. If people stopped signing on that would be great for the government, the figures would drop. Many people sign on so they can do courses and because a long-term unemployed person is more likely to be taken on than someone who has signed on more recently and there are benefits for a company who takes on someone who is registered as unemployed, when I started working in an estate agency I wasn't registered as unemployed as I had been back to college to retrain and before I signed my contract I had to go and register as unemployed. When you do a course, although you are de-registered for the duration of the course, you maintain the original date you signed on the first time. However, if you happen to work, even one day, you lose this.


Yes, I understand that there are certain advantages if you continue signing on, I just don't know how many long term unemployed actually continue to do so, bit I suppose you're right, that's ot's the majority


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