# Primary Public Ed in Spain



## Lucy J (Sep 10, 2013)

Hi, I'm thinking of coming to Spain so that my children can have an immersive language experience. They are 5, 7, and 9, and it would be for only a few months -- maybe Jan - May or over the summer. Would like to enroll in public school (and preschool); I can make sure they are up on what they need for here in US when they return. Am thinking Toledo, or at least from Madrid south. Prefer a medium-sized city, with easy train access to Madrid or other large city, but small would be fine, too. My goal is for them to learn Spanish because it is a pretty important language for the US, IMO. I would learn it too -- I know french and a little spanish; not worried about my ability to pick up enough to get by and enjoy the time. Just me, husband would stay in US. Probably no car rental, just use public transport and taxi. Our local university also has contacts in Toledo that I might be able to use. 

So, general thoughts about enrolling kids in primary, public school mid-term in Spain (with all paperwork), city/regional criteria, etc. We might just do a month or two in the summer if longer time isn't feasible, but I really want a fairly positive immersion experience for the kids so they'll have a good base for later. Thank you so much in advance -- all perspectives appreciated!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

I am on the app so I can't see your nationality flags, but guessing from your post you are American.

Do you have a way to get a visa that will allow you to live here and, more importantly, enroll your kids in school?

I would look at starting them in September, NOT mid-course. Otherwisw I think the frustration and culture shock of being literally thrown into the mix is going to just be too much.

Primary school starts this week and, here, is on a half day schedule until October to ease the kids in. Again, I would absolutely not throw the kids in class mid-year. 


Finally, keep in mind that the Spanish spoken here is/can be quite different than the Spanish spoken in the States.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> Primary school starts this week and, here, is on a half day schedule until October to ease the kids in.


Is that in the Spanish system?

Every school(admittedly non Spanish bar one Spanish bilingual who will) we have spoken to wont take a 4 year old on a half day schedule.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Is that in the Spanish system?
> 
> Every school(admittedly non Spanish bar one Spanish bilingual who will) we have spoken to wont take a 4 year old on a half day schedule.


_In general_ primary school children in state schools do half days in September and June, not because the parents or teachers like it, but because of the weather and the number of hours in the school year.
Also, the pre school children, some of which start when they are still 2 years old, often start by going a couple of hours one day, a couple the next so they have a week or so of getting used to it.
Private schools do not _usually_ follow this system and children are in school from 9:00 - 16:00/ 17:00


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lucy J said:


> Hi, I'm thinking of coming to Spain so that my children can have an immersive language experience. They are 5, 7, and 9, and it would be for only a few months -- maybe Jan - May or over the summer. Would like to enroll in public school (and preschool); I can make sure they are up on what they need for here in US when they return. Am thinking Toledo, or at least from Madrid south. Prefer a medium-sized city, with easy train access to Madrid or other large city, but small would be fine, too. My goal is for them to learn Spanish because it is a pretty important language for the US, IMO. I would learn it too -- I know french and a little spanish; not worried about my ability to pick up enough to get by and enjoy the time. Just me, husband would stay in US. Probably no car rental, just use public transport and taxi. Our local university also has contacts in Toledo that I might be able to use.
> 
> So, general thoughts about enrolling kids in primary, public school mid-term in Spain (with all paperwork), city/regional criteria, etc. We might just do a month or two in the summer if longer time isn't feasible, but I really want a fairly positive immersion experience for the kids so they'll have a good base for later. Thank you so much in advance -- all perspectives appreciated!


You won't get your kids into a public school, and you'll probably struggle getting them into a private school at those times of the year. Some of the language schools in Madrid run summer camps for learning Spanish:

Campamentos de Verano para Niños y Jóvenes en Madrid | don Quijote

but you might be better off simply hiring private tutors. You can probably pick one up for about €1000/month which will work out cheaper and your kids will get personal tuition. If you can combine that with various activities in Spanish (or maybe send them on a summer camp afterwords) then it might work out better.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> _In general_ primary school children in state schools do half days in September and June, not because the parents or teachers like it, but because of the weather and the number of hours in the school year.


Well whatever the reason it's still slightly more reasonable than the private system.



Pesky Wesky said:


> Also, the pre school children, some of which start when they are still 2 years old, often start by going a couple of hours one day, a couple the next so they have a week or so of getting used to it.


And this is where I find the system not very flexible at all considering a child in Spain isn't legally required to start school until they are 6(?)
I don't see how the "pre-schools" can demand you put a 2 yo in at full time. Which I know is not as long of a day as the older students but it's still basically day care at that age.
Of course you have the option not to put your kid in that environment but I find it hard to believe that nothing is more flexible. 
As I said though we have found at least one school but that really limits your options.



Pesky Wesky said:


> Private schools do not _usually_ follow this system and children are in school from 9:00 - 16:00/ 17:00


This is fine for older students but yes they are not flexible when it comes to the littler ones either. Which considering the money you have to pay to send them there I would of thought otherwise.

We do things differently in Australia so that's the system I'm used to. I mean you can do things the same way if you choose to but you at least have the choice to do otherwise.
Pre-schools and Kindergartens don't make the rules like they do here.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Before even thinking about the availability of places in schools you need to clear up the issue of your visa. As an American you can visit as a tourist (without a visa) for up to 90 days, but in that case your kids would have no right to enroll in school. You need to be a resident in order for your kids to enroll, and basically the only way to do that is to get a job from a Spanish company that would sponsor your visa petition. Or maybe you all hold EU passports? In that case you can become a resident if you can demonstrate sufficient income from any source and also health care cover.

I think you might be better off coming in the summer and putting your kids in a summer camp program. But realistically, your kids aren't going to come away knowing Spanish after a month or two even in an immersion type situation. It is a start, but it takes longer than I think you realize to really become fluent.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> ...
> And this is where I find the system not very flexible at all considering a child in Spain isn't legally required to start school until they are 6(?)
> I don't see how the "pre-schools" can demand you put a 2 yo in at full time. Which I know is not as long of a day as the older students but it's still basically day care at that age.
> Of course you have the option not to put your kid in that environment but I find it hard to believe that nothing is more flexible.
> ...


Most pre-schools I know of do allow half days. And even if they don't, they're only forcing the parent _to pay_ for the whole day. They're not forcing the child to be there all day. The parent can still pick the child up at lunch time for example.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well like I said we haven't spoke to many Spanish schools so that may be the case, certainly the bilingual one will do that.
Again I'm not sure of the Spanish ones but once the kid hit's 4 then in the private system at least they have to be in full time.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Well whatever the reason it's still slightly more reasonable than the private system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with what you say, but the system's the system, and that's the way it works. Teachers in state schools have to work within that system - like it or lump it. Parents have to deal with that system - like it or lump it. As you say, preschool is not obligatory, so if people don't like the system they have two, maybe three other alternatives; keep the child at home, send child to a local guarderia where they will pay, but will probably be able to choose the timetable to a certain extent, or there may be a local, state run, Escuela Infantil or which is subsidised, with an imposed timetable.
My own daughter went to our local Escuela Infantil from 10:00 - 15:00 every day. She went straight into full time school aged 4. It would have actually been worse for her to have an "adaptation" time of a few hours a day as she was already used to a good few hours in a different environment to home.
There are sometimes state run establishments which care for preschool children in a morning timetable only, but I can't remember what they're called and it probably varies from region to region anyway. There was one attatched to the local Escuela Infantil, but it closed a few years ago, victim of education cuts.
Education in Spain is quite different to that of the UK, and so probably to Australia too. Some things are better, some are worse, and some are just different. The things that are really difficult to accept are the things that you just didn't see coming, things that it didn't occur to you might be different.
My own experience led me to believe that it might be useful to voice an opinion, (even if it was just to make me feel better), and so that people can appreciate that there are other ways of doing things, but the organisation, the processes that are in place, the perception of what is correct and what isn't is not going to change because other countries or other cultures do it differently. The only way to incite change is to join the AMPA or a local pressure group.
The other change that some people decide to make when thinking about their children's education is to leave Spain, especially in the current climate.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Well whatever the reason it's still slightly more reasonable than the private system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


a lot of the kids when my younger daughter was in infantil here only went in for the first part of the day

they would start at 9 & go home at 12:30 - some would then return at 3 to 4:30 & some wouldn't

some would stay all day & have lunch at school

certainly the 4/5 year olds were encouraged/expected to do the whole day, but the 2/3 year olds weren't


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

When my son was in infantil I only sent him for the first part of the day and he didn't go back after lunch. It was just too long a day for him, and the teacher agreed and was fine with that. This was at public school, by the way. By the time my daughter was in infantil they had changed the timetable and it was no longer split. For her we had no choice, either she went all day (which was 9-2) or not at all. Fortunately she was a different type of kid and enjoyed the 5 hours at school every day. I don't know what we would have done if it had been like that for my son. I agree that for many preschoolers it's too long a day.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Well like I said we haven't spoke to many Spanish schools so that may be the case, certainly the bilingual one will do that.
> Again I'm not sure of the Spanish ones but once the kid hit's 4 then in the private system at least they have to be in full time.


Yes it depends what you mean by pre-school I guess. Even though education isn't obligatory until 6, most children start school in the year of their third Birthday, so I consider that to be school and anything before that to be pre-school. As PW says, there are Escuelas Infantiles that take children from the age of 6 months to 6 years, and I'm sure they are flexible. But primary schools that take children from the age of 2/3 to 11/12 usually have a rigid timetable. The risk with sending your kids to Escuelas Infantiles until the age of 6 is you have a much more limited choice when it comes to sending your kids to primary school - most of the places are already taken. That's why there's usually a rush to get kids into school at the age of 3. I can understand why that wouldn't appeal to everyone, but on the other hand it's free. Many people would jump at the opportunity of leaving their 3 year old child in a nursery school from 9am to 5pm for free.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Most of what everyone has said above fits in with what we have been told. Whether you/me/the dog agrees with it or not doesn't seem to matter because it's the way it works with few exceptions.

But yeah it's a bit detached from the system I know, I'm not complaining too much as there are different options but if I can find more out the it can only be for the better.



Chopera said:


> Yes it depends what you mean by pre-school I guess. Even though education isn't obligatory until 6, most children start school in the year of their third Birthday, so I consider that to be school and anything before that to be pre-school. As PW says, there are Escuelas Infantiles that take children from the age of 6 months to 6 years, and I'm sure they are flexible. But primary schools that take children from the age of 2/3 to 11/12 usually have a rigid timetable. The risk with sending your kids to Escuelas Infantiles until the age of 6 is you have a much more limited choice when it comes to sending your kids to primary school - most of the places are already taken. That's why there's usually a rush to get kids into school at the age of 3. I can understand why that wouldn't appeal to everyone, but on the other hand it's free. Many people would jump at the opportunity of leaving their 3 year old child in a nursery school from 9am to 5pm for free.


I think your last line hit the nail on the head, fair enough times have changed as have parental roles but not every parent needs day care.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Having worked in the system, I have nothing but the absolute best to say about the public preschools and preschool teachers. While it might seem like a long day to you, the teachers do a great job and the kids adapt quickly. I truly think the preschool teachers here are some of the best teachers I have ever worked with.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Having worked in the system, I have nothing but the absolute best to say about the public preschools and preschool teachers. While it might seem like a long day to you, the teachers do a great job and the kids adapt quickly. I truly think the preschool teachers here are some of the best teachers I have ever worked with.


Yes our experience has been good (so far). My impression is that Spain has very good primary education, however the system lets the children (and teachers) down at the secondary stage. I'm hoping the situation improves soon.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Having worked in the system, I have nothing but the absolute best to say about the public preschools and preschool teachers. While it might seem like a long day to you, the teachers do a great job and the kids adapt quickly. I truly think the preschool teachers here are some of the best teachers I have ever worked with.


That's great to hear.
Our own experience has been 
Great in Escuela Infantil
Primary, in general very disappointing
Secondary, in general, once you have accepted the system as it is, good/ very good
University, uninspiring


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Our lad started infantil school yesterday. Here is how it works: We had an introductory day lasting 1 hour last Friday. There we discovered what the teachers will deal with - mayhem and unbelievable noise. We met the other parents, some of whom have older children at school and most of the others having their first child at school. We found out what is expected from us and what they will do for our child. We met two other English parents, one married to a Spaniard and the other married to a lovely lady from Darfur, Sudan. Another lady was from Zimbabwe and spoke perfect English and Spanish. Two women there spoke Arabic (first language) and Spanish or English. What a mix but between us we managed to figure out what was going on. 

Yesterday was his first day at school but with us in attendance. Today we were not allowed to go past the gate. He has one hour a day this week and is in the 'older' group of kids who are over 3. Two other groups go for one hour each at later times, the 3 yr olds and the under 3s. Next week for two days he goes for an hour and a half and then for three hours the rest of the week. The following week he will be 'full time' from 9 am 'til 2 pm. The teachers are simply wonderful, displaying an extraordinary patience, understanding, sympathy all mixed with some good discipline (for example today they had to stand in line before entering the school). Our lad cried his eyes out when he realised that we were not going in with him (we had told him but I don't think he believed we would ever do such a terrible thing). We went for coffee (whilst I tried, unsuccessfully, to hide the several tears running down my cheeks - how I hate those allergies) and waited out the hour. We returned and waited for him. Out he came looking a bit bemused but he had all his limbs intact so everything seemed ok. He was wearing a badge which stated, 'I am older now that I go to school'. He came out and kissed us both (that allergy started again) and said he'd had fun.

Later he confided in my mother that he had cried only because Mummy and Daddy didn't go in with him and left him on his own!!

The teachers told us he had been a good boy (teachers are allowed to lie, aren't they? It was our boy they were talking about) and they really liked him. There were 9 children in his group and one little chap's parents were late arriving to pick him up. He searched the crowd of grown ups only to discover his were not there. I have never seen a kid dissolve so completely. But they showed up eventually and he ran into their arms, cuddled, kissed and then, oh boy, did he ever hit them. That'll tell 'em!!

An emotional and heart warming day. It reminded me of my first day at school when things like discipline were still allowed and teachers were allowed to touch the kids with affection and warmth. Yes, we made a good decision moving here....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> Our lad started infantil school yesterday. Here is how it works: We had an introductory day lasting 1 hour last Friday. There we discovered what the teachers will deal with - mayhem and unbelievable noise. We met the other parents, some of whom have older children at school and most of the others having their first child at school. We found out what is expected from us and what they will do for our child. We met two other English parents, one married to a Spaniard and the other married to a lovely lady from Darfur, Sudan. Another lady was from Zimbabwe and spoke perfect English and Spanish. Two women there spoke Arabic (first language) and Spanish or English. What a mix but between us we managed to figure out what was going on.
> 
> Yesterday was his first day at school but with us in attendance. Today we were not allowed to go past the gate. He has one hour a day this week and is in the 'older' group of kids who are over 3. Two other groups go for one hour each at later times, the 3 yr olds and the under 3s. Next week for two days he goes for an hour and a half and then for three hours the rest of the week. The following week he will be 'full time' from 9 am 'til 2 pm. The teachers are simply wonderful, displaying an extraordinary patience, understanding, sympathy all mixed with some good discipline (for example today they had to stand in line before entering the school). Our lad cried his eyes out when he realised that we were not going in with him (we had told him but I don't think he believed we would ever do such a terrible thing). We went for coffee (whilst I tried, unsuccessfully, to hide the several tears running down my cheeks - how I hate those allergies) and waited out the hour. We returned and waited for him. Out he came looking a bit bemused but he had all his limbs intact so everything seemed ok. He was wearing a badge which stated, 'I am older now that I go to school'. He came out and kissed us both (that allergy started again) and said he'd had fun.
> 
> ...


That's one hell of an allergy Thrax! It came through the computer and got me too!! :grouphug: 
Ahh, the memories of trying to be a good, loving but firm Mum... Don't you just love 'em on these days?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I don't know, never had them yet, I'm the Daddy!!!!!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Feel free to split this post if it's dragging off topic but it does tie in a little bit.

I just saw this reported on the news.

The Government should stop intervening in early education - Telegraph

BBC News - Formal school lessons should start 'above age of five'


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> I don't know, never had them yet, I'm the Daddy!!!!!


_"Don't you just love 'em"_ referred to the children, not the memories of being a mother.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was that your experiences brought back memories, not so much of leaving my daughter at school (she was sooooo excited, and sooo ready) but leaving her for a week's summer camp in England. All the other parents were celebrating in the car park that they'd have week free from the "brats"and I was crying, worried to death that she wouldn't understand and would get beaten up by the British Bullies...:hurt:

She had a great time, and went twice more to the same place


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Feel free to split this post if it's dragging off topic but it does tie in a little bit.
> 
> I just saw this reported on the news.
> 
> ...


Yes I read those, and generally agree with them. In the UK they are trying to test kids at the age of 5 and get them ready for school, when they should be nurturing their social skills and self confidence. In Germany and Spain I don't think they teach reading until the age of 6 or 7 (although it is probably easier to learn to read and write in those languages). Up until then it is pretty much "play, play, play" but of course in a controlled way that allows the children to learn through play, and figure out complex social situations for themselves. Confidence in life is a lot more important than learning to read by the age of 4.

Edit - that is also the prefect age to introduce second or even third languages. It's when the kids learn the language directly (rather than in terms of their native language) and it's when they can aquire different accents. Other countries realise this (especially Spain, where children are exposed to English from very early ages) but the UK has its head in the sand.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Chopera said:


> In Germany and Spain I don't think they teach reading until the age of 6 or 7


No, not true. At least in my area the children are expected to be reading by the time they finish kindergarten (and also to be doing simple sums).


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> No, not true. At least in my area the children are expected to be reading by the time they finish kindergarten (and also to be doing simple sums).


That's probably specific to their school. In Spain education is not obligatory until 6 - which means that in state schools they can't assume that children already read when they start school at that age. There may be some schools that do teach reading at an earlier age - in fact I suspect a lot teach some form of written comprehension at earlier ages - but the state education system does not require (let alone test for) a level of reading before the age of 6. Similarly many private schools teach English at the age of 3 (or even younger) but "bilingual" state schools usually have to wait until the age of 6, since many children will be entering with no knowledge of English at all.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

In our boy's school, they teach reading almost straight away which is good for him since he is already reading in English and just beginning to write. So the Spanish he will be learning to read is way below the level he is at in English but great for him to start learning Spanish (and then teaching us - hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch...). In his school they start learning German as the main second language with English beginning at age 11 although he will be able to skip these lessons as he will be completely fluent by then in terms of both reading and writing and won't be much use in an English class for those who cannot speak a word of it. And as I teach both maths and English the poor lad is in for a terrible time hahaha....


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Edit - that is also the prefect age to introduce second or even third languages. It's when the kids learn the language directly (rather than in terms of their native language) and it's when they can aquire different accents. Other countries realise this (especially Spain, where children are exposed to English from very early ages) but the UK has its head in the sand.


But it is counterproductive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non-native. All the do is acquire bad habits that take a life time to lose.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

thrax said:


> In our boy's school, they teach reading almost straight away which is good for him since he is already reading in English and just beginning to write. So the Spanish he will be learning to read is way below the level he is at in English but great for him to start learning Spanish (and then teaching us - hey, there's no such thing as a free lunch...). In his school they start learning German as the main second language with English beginning at age 11 although he will be able to skip these lessons as he will be completely fluent by then in terms of both reading and writing and won't be much use in an English class for those who cannot speak a word of it. And as I teach both maths and English the poor lad is in for a terrible time hahaha....


You are lucky you've managed to find a school that doesn't teach English as a second language. I tried to find schools in Madrid with French or German as a second language since our son won't really gain much from the English lessons at school, but the schools we did find didn't really suit our needs. Our eldest started "primary school" last week (at the age of 3, so really it is the second cycle of "educación infantil" rather than "educacíon primaria") and he doesn't read at all. We've concentrated on getting him completely bilingual in Spanish and English, and now we're gently trying to introduce French ourselves (although he's not too receptive).


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

anles said:


> But it is counterproductive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non-native. All the do is acquire bad habits that take a life time to lose.


It's better than not learning the language at all - which is what usually happens when language learning starts in secondary school. The aim is to get children comfortable with two languages from an early age, so their brains develop in a certain way that allows them to switch naturally between multiple languages. It is something that can only be achieved when children are young - before secondary school usually. It doesn't matter if one of the languages isn't aquired perfectly - the aim is to communicate effortlessly and instantaneously in different languages. They have their whole lives to perfect their spelling, grammar, etc. But there is only a relatively short window when native language skills can be aquired - it should not be wasted by trivial concerns about picking up bad habits. Besides, a lot of the English teaching is supported by native auxilliary teachers anyway.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Yes, we've taught the boy some basic Spanish so he knows the alphabet and can count to 20. When he was 18 months old he totally blew us away when he said to the checkout girl in Eroski, hasta luego which we had never taught him or even said in front of him. It just shows what sponges their brains are at that age.... If all goes to plan he should be tri-lingual when he is 12 which can't be a bad thing these days...


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

thrax said:


> Yes, we've taught the boy some basic Spanish so he knows the alphabet and can count to 20. When he was 18 months old he totally blew us away when he said to the checkout girl in Eroski, hasta luego which we had never taught him or even said in front of him. It just shows what sponges their brains are at that age.... *If all goes to plan he should be tri-lingual when he is 12 which can't be a bad thing these days*...


Yes it's a huge advantage - by the age of 12 he'll be almost guaranteed of finding a reasonable job later on in life.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Chopera said:


> That's probably specific to their school. In Spain education is not obligatory until 6 - which means that in state schools they can't assume that children already read when they start school at that age. There may be some schools that do teach reading at an earlier age - in fact I suspect a lot teach some form of written comprehension at earlier ages - but the state education system does not require (let alone test for) a level of reading before the age of 6. Similarly many private schools teach English at the age of 3 (or even younger) but "bilingual" state schools usually have to wait until the age of 6, since many children will be entering with no knowledge of English at all.


No, it's not specific to their school. I work in a large language academy that gets kids from dozens of different schools, both public and private, and the vast majority of the kids are reading by the time they finish kindy. Of course no child is_ required_ to be reading by age 6, but any child who isn't (or isn't close) will be left in the dust by Christmas. Have you seen the primary year one course books? They are definitely not teaching the kids their letters. That started way back when the kids were 3 years old.

Just because school isn't required until age 6 doesn't mean they assume that no learning has gone on before that age. They know full well that the reality is that virtually all children start school when they are 3 or at the latest when they are 4. The fact that it hasn't been made mandatory I think is more of a political move than anything. If it were mandatory then the government would have to guarantee free education for all those preschoool children. As it stands now parents often have to pay to send their kids to preschool at a school that has state subsidized primary education (un colegio concertado).


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> No, it's not specific to their school. I work in a large language academy that gets kids from dozens of different schools, both public and private, and the vast majority of the kids are reading by the time they finish kindy. Of course no child is_ required_ to be reading by age 6, but any child who isn't (or isn't close) will be left in the dust by Christmas. Have you seen the primary year one course books? They are definitely not teaching the kids their letters. That started way back when the kids were 3 years old.


A state primary school will not leave those who cannot read at the age of 6 for dust by Christmas. As I said previously, "a lot teach some form of written comprehension at earlier ages" but if a child enters and is unable to read they will teach them. The fact so many children do get taught some form of reading earlier on is due to cultural and social pressures - many parents (in my opinion incorrectly) want their children to read at an earlier age, and where there is a demand there is certainly a school willing to meet that demand. Also many children want to read earlier: they want to know what "such and such" letter says, etc. So they will naturally learn earlier than others. That's entirely normal. But my point is the Spanish government does not force children to read before the age of 6, and it certainly doesn't test their reading abilities at the age of 5, which is what the UK is proposing. The fact that it happens is due to parent pressure.



kalohi said:


> Just because school isn't required until age 6 doesn't mean they assume that no learning has gone on before that age. They know full well that the reality is that virtually all children start school when they are 3 or at the latest when they are 4. The fact that it hasn't been made mandatory I think is more of a political move than anything. If it were mandatory then the government would have to guarantee free education for all those preschoool children. As it stands now parents often have to pay to send their kids to preschool at a school that has state subsidized primary education (un colegio concertado).


Of course they assume some learning has taken place, but the state schools really are not allowed to assume that children can read at the age of 6. And concertados are pretty much free (our son goes to one) - school meals are extra, and there is usually a "voluntary" charge (about €50/month) which they use to pay the auxiliaries - the people who pick the kids up at the door, help them go to the toilet, etc. But they do not charge for the education itself. However you are correct that the Spanish state can't provide enough places for children in public/concertado schools at the age of 3. In fact I doubt they can at the age of 6 either - they have to assume a certain amount of kids will go to private schools (which is less and less these days).

Here are some articles discussing when kids start to read in Spain:

Qu aprender tu hijo en cada etapa del colegio - ABC.es

¿Deberían los niños empezar a leer y escribir a los seis años?

Sin leer ni escribir hasta los seis | Edición impresa | EL PAÍS

The last article is particularly interesting I think. I talks about the immense pressure teachers get from the parents to start teaching kids to read/write before the age of 6. And they all imply that it is wrong to formally teach kids to read at that age - there are other priorities.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

anles said:


> But it is counterproductive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non-native. All the do is acquire bad habits that take a life time to lose.


Please don't sell local teachers short. Just because someone is a native speaker does not make them a good language teacher. We have bad habits too!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> But it is counterproductive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non-native. All the do is acquire bad habits that take a life time to lose.


I wouldn't say it's counterproducive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non native. Non native has nothing to do with it. It's counterproductive if the teachers are bad, Not all natives are good and not all non natives are bad.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

On the subject of reading, my own daghter was not taught any reading skills at all beyond letter recognition until she was 6 specifically because education is not obligatory until primary starts, which is at the age of 6. I taught her to read in English before that for 2 reasons
1. English is much more difficult to read than Spanish and I was concerned that once she knew how to read in Spanish she wouldn't want to make the effort to read in English. Also there are obviously a lot more Spanish reading stimuli in our environment than English.
2. She was ready and happy and enthusiastic about doing it. 

Things might have changed now as this was a few years ago. This is in the Madrid area.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wouldn't say it's counterproducive to introduce children at that age to English if the teachers are non native. Non native has nothing to do with it. It's counterproductive if the teachers are bad, Not all natives are good and not all non natives are bad.


I'm not saying that the teachers are bad if they are non-native or that they are good if they are native, but young children should be exposed to a correct pronunciation, the skills they can develop are their ear and their pronunciation, which if they aren't doing properly is more harmful than good. I have been teaching for almost thirty years, my first job was when I was 18. When my own children started English at school they came home saying all sorts of things, they had two versions of English when they were small: how they pronounced things at home and how they said them at school. This year I have been going every week to help my granddaughter read in English, and personally I can't see any benefit in her learning to mispronounce words. I have many students who have come to me as adults and I say..."hmmm was so and so your English teacher?" because of words they mispronounce, even when they have acquired a very good command of English, they have words they learnt in primary that they still mispronounce in a characteristic way. It takes far longer to unlearn a bad habit than it does to learn correctly from the first. However, this is a problem I don't find with the children in ESO who come to me for French. I wouldn't dream of trying to teach young children French, my French is very good, but I don't have a native accent as I do in English and in Spanish. They start learning French in 1st ESO and mostly only do 2 years and they speak far more French in those two years than in the 10 they have been studying English. They spend year after year in primary doing the same things over and over again and a lot of people end up hating English and failing it even when they are very good at other subjects. The good ones end up with a magnificent written level and a command of grammar which is much higher than that of English children, who don't seem to learn even the basics, but unless they have been to private classes, to an academy or to the language school, they are unable to hold even basic conversations- Maybe in other areas it's different, but here in my town that's the way it is, it's a small town of around 20000 inhabitants and I know all the schools. I have been teaching since before the ESO was introduced and the idea of introducing English at an earlier age has not had the desired effect, in fact in my own experience it is detrimental.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I'm not saying that the teachers are bad if they are non-native or that they are good if they are native, but young children should be exposed to a correct pronunciation, the skills they can develop are their ear and their pronunciation, which if they aren't doing properly is more harmful than good. I have been teaching for almost thirty years, my first job was when I was 18. When my own children started English at school they came home saying all sorts of things, they had two versions of English when they were small: how they pronounced things at home and how they said them at school. This year I have been going every week to help my granddaughter read in English, and personally I can't see any benefit in her learning to mispronounce words. I have many students who have come to me as adults and I say..."hmmm was so and so your English teacher?" because of words they mispronounce, even when they have acquired a very good command of English, they have words they learnt in primary that they still mispronounce in a characteristic way. It takes far longer to unlearn a bad habit than it does to learn correctly from the first. However, this is a problem I don't find with the children in ESO who come to me for French. I wouldn't dream of trying to teach young children French, my French is very good, but I don't have a native accent as I do in English and in Spanish. They start learning French in 1st ESO and mostly only do 2 years and they speak far more French in those two years than in the 10 they have been studying English. They spend year after year in primary doing the same things over and over again and a lot of people end up hating English and failing it even when they are very good at other subjects. The good ones end up with a magnificent written level and a command of grammar which is much higher than that of English children, who don't seem to learn even the basics, but unless they have been to private classes, to an academy or to the language school, they are unable to hold even basic conversations- Maybe in other areas it's different, but here in my town that's the way it is, it's a small town of around 20000 inhabitants and I know all the schools. I have been teaching since before the ESO was introduced and the idea of introducing English at an earlier age has not had the desired effect, in fact in my own experience it is detrimental.


Well, I haven't got as much experience as you, only 29 years , but I don't think you only have one shot at getting an accent "right". My first steps in Spanish were in Colombia so when I came to Spain I had a wierd Colombo/ British accent and as I was in Catalonia, that caused real confusion. I don't have a trace of Colombian accent now. (I still have a British accent though and it doesn't worry me. If I could have a native or near native accent I'd love it, but at this stage of the game I'm happy I can communicate well on all different levels. This week I've had 3 interviews, one in English and 2 in Spanish. I was actually much more nervous about the English one than the Spanish ones)
I think native teachers, who *don't* do a good job (and by that I mean making classes interesting, motivating, relevant, not just whether they teach pronunciation and grammar) do just a bad a job as a non native teacher who does a bad job. And non native doesn't necessarily mean they have a bad accent although maybe the majority do. I think the problem may lie in what you say about the child receiving bad input year after year after year.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Anles - if you are saying that if the teaching is so poor that the child learns nothing, get's put off the language, or learns to speak the language incorrectly so they can't communicate in it then yes, of course it's a waste of time. However if you are saying that a child shouldn't be taught simply because their pronunciation won't be quite right then I disagree. Top priority is that they can communicate, and if they can become bilingual then all the better. It's better to be bilingual in a language that you mispronounce occasionally than have perfect pronunciation, and yet be unable to follow a conversation.

Besides the situation you are talking about will become less and less common with English teaching in Spain. The teachers are improving their English and they are being supported by native assitants. Gradually this will feed back on itself and, with language being a social phenomenon, within a generation I expect a threshold will be reached where most young Spaniards (in the big cities at least) will be comfortable switching between English and Spanish. The standard of pronunciation will improve in general and the chances of children being exposed to incorrect pronunciation will diminish. The only way we can get there is by exposing kids to as much English as possible, from an early age.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Besides the situation you are talking about will become less and less common with English teaching in Spain. The teachers are improving their English and they are being supported by native assitants. Gradually this will feed back on itself and, with language being a social phenomenon, within a generation I expect a threshold will be reached where most young Spaniards (in the big cities at least) will be comfortable switching between English and Spanish. The standard of pronunciation will improve in general and the chances of children being exposed to incorrect pronunciation will diminish. The only way we can get there is by exposing kids to as much English as possible, from an early age.


Has to be said that the native assistants sometimes leave a lot to be desired. They are often not training to be language teachers, or teachers of any kind. A friend who is a Spanish English teacher in the state system here was given an assistant who was studying engineering or something, had no idea about language and was not particularly interested in what was happening in class at all. The only thing he could do was speak English, but he had to have everything prepared for him and given to him on a plate. My friend, an excellent teacher, took on this extra work and used the assistant to help her classes, but not every teacher is going to see this as a golden opportunity and will not welcome being given extra work, especially when they see their working conditions progressively worsen.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Has to be said that the native assistants sometimes leave a lot to be desired. They are often not training to be language teachers, or teachers of any kind. A friend who is a Spanish English teacher in the state system here was given an assistant who was studying engineering or something, had no idea about language and was not particularly interested in what was happening in class at all. The only thing he could do was speak English, but he had to have everything prepared for him and given to him on a plate. My friend, an excellent teacher, took on this extra work and used the assistant to help her classes, but not every teacher is going to see this as a golden opportunity and will not welcome being given extra work, especially when they see their working conditions progressively worsen.


Also I've a few assistant teachers have told me that the class teacher has told them not to attend their class. They sit in the staff room drinking nice relaxing café con leches instead. The system isn't perfect, but Spain couldn't go on teaching languages like before.

Technology helps as well, on Youtube you can find Peppa Pig in 20 different languages for example, there are online games available in different languages, all for free and all accessible from a smart phone. With all this multi-lingual content at our finger tips a motivated parent should be able to contribute to their child's language learning, even if they don't speak the language themselves.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Also I've a few assistant teachers have told me that the class teacher has told them not to attend their class. They sit in the staff room drinking nice relaxing café con leches instead. The system isn't perfect, but Spain couldn't go on teaching languages like before.
> 
> Technology helps as well, on Youtube you can find Peppa Pig in 20 different languages for example, there are online games available in different languages, all for free and all accessible from a smart phone. With all this multi-lingual content at our finger tips a motivated parent should be able to contribute to their child's language learning, even if they don't speak the language themselves.


Yes, the native English assistant programme could be a great assest if it was assessed and put into place adequately. This friend of mine told me that the assistant in her school was earning over a 1000euros, paid in cash!!!!!!! How or why exactly, I don't know, and quite honestly, I don't think I want to. The whole thing, in Madrid anyway, has been approached as a business (an under the table business by the sounds of it) and the people behind the scheme are business people, not educators so, unfortunately the correct infrastructure, and the correct approach just isn't there.
The teaching assistants are often under used as the teachers, rightly or wrongly, feel uncomfortable with them in the class. What they don't know is that the "teaching assistants" probably know Jack s***, just like them!!


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## Lucy J (Sep 10, 2013)

*Thanks!*

Thank you to all of you who shared info about the spanish public school system. It is very helpful. I've also met with a professor who is originally from Spain who had her children in their public system, and she was very helpful. Probably Toledo or Pamplona. Lots to figure out. But I really want to do this sooner than later -- read that language is best picked up by 7. But to me, as early as possible and especially before secondary school is my goal. Thank you again.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Has to be said that the native assistants sometimes leave a lot to be desired. They are often not training to be language teachers, or teachers of any kind. A friend who is a Spanish English teacher in the state system here was given an assistant who was studying engineering or something, had no idea about language and was not particularly interested in what was happening in class at all. The only thing he could do was speak English, but he had to have everything prepared for him and given to him on a plate. My friend, an excellent teacher, took on this extra work and used the assistant to help her classes, but not every teacher is going to see this as a golden opportunity and will not welcome being given extra work, especially when they see their working conditions progressively worsen.


This is exactly why I said what I did about natives. The program is just the way for a lot of foreign kids to have some sun, sangria, and another three letter s- word.


Despite the fact the poster has years more experience than I do, I highly disagree. It is much easier to teach someone who already has a solid base, even if there are a few "bad habits."


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, the native English assistant programme could be a great assest if it was assessed and put into place adequately. This friend of mine told me that the assistant in her school was earning over a 1000euros, paid in cash!!!!!!! How or why exactly, I don't know, and quite honestly, I don't think I want to. The whole thing, in Madrid anyway, has been approached as a business (an under the table business by the sounds of it) and the people behind the scheme are business people, not educators so, unfortunately the correct infrastructure, and the correct approach just isn't there.
> The teaching assistants are often under used as the teachers, rightly or wrongly, feel uncomfortable with them in the class. What they don't know is that the "teaching assistants" probably know Jack s***, just like them!!


1000 in cash? Which program was this? I know the folks in Madrid earned more, but they also work more hours. 

In most regions it is 700/mo. for 12 hour in class plus whatever time you are in the school waiting.

I learned a lot as a language assistant. I feel that I have a serious leg up on other new teachers since I essentially had three good years of student teaching.

All that being said, if the government wants to spend their money wisely, the selection process MUST be more than "first come, first served." There was a visiting teachers program last year that brought 60 native, credentialed, teachers to Spain. It was one of the first things cut when the PP took over.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> 1000 in cash? Which program was this? I know the folks in Madrid earned more, but they also work more hours.
> 
> In most regions it is 700/mo. for 12 hour in class plus whatever time you are in the school waiting.
> 
> ...


When you said 12hours it made me remember that I think she said he was working 2 schools. With just 12 hours a week, and not planning or correcting anything, he cartainly had plenty of time to do two schools.
I don't know the programme, but it was just an ordinary state secondary school in the comunidad, not city, of Madrid


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> This is exactly why I said what I did about natives. The program is just the way for a lot of foreign kids to have some sun, sangria, and another three letter s- word.
> 
> 
> Despite the fact the poster has years more experience than I do, I highly disagree. It is much easier to teach someone who already has a solid base, even if there are a few "bad habits."


I agree with you and at no point have I defended native assistant teachers per se, because for a start the only ones who have been here have been either at the language school for half an hour a week with each group or at the state high schools and they have very little input. But as you say, it ¡s easier to teach someone with a solid base, and this is exactly what isn't being achieved. By the time they finish ESO they have been learning English for 10 years and they still can't hold a basic conversation. I know pronunciation isn't everything, that you can be fluent (although I guess not everyone has the same definition of fluent) and still retain your native accent but when young children learn a foreign language in the same manner that they learn their own language, either because the move to another country or because their parents are from a different country of origin, what usually marks the difference is that they speak and pronounce both languages like natives even if they make grammatical mistakes; few people don't even when talking in their own language. These are skills that they develop at an early age and they generally have far more capacity for this than an older person. But I think that listening to Peppa pig (whatever that may be) or Disney films in original version is far better than being taught the same basic vocabulary, badly pronounced year in, year out.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

The only fair way to get native teachers into the system is the language assistant program or the schools with a British Council agreement. I have worked with many amazing Spanish professionals who simply do not fit the "jello jau ar iu" profile you are describing. Are there a few bad eggs? Of course! But that is an international issue.

It is probably a good thing I have no internet and I am limited to replying via the app. I have a lot of very strong feelings about the implementatipn of bilingual programs here.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Edit to add: The only other fair way to enter as a teacher is to do the public service exams and earn your post like the rest.


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