# : Slippery Sales Agents be careful !!! :



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

Just got back from buying my Spanish (Mallorca) Villa and boy oh boy what a day that was !!

Having arranged the purchase price and finally getting my NIE number all systems were GO ,, Notary arranged and as advised a translator was required and so one was hired for the sum of 200 euros..

The agent meets me at the Bank where the Bankers draaft is collected along with the Cash (Black money which is the normal out there !!) Anyways the agent is all smiles happy cheerful treats me to coffee whereby we meet up with the Translator a nice pretty lady , who proceeds to tell me all about her life in Switzerland , Austria , sweden Spain and eventually Mallorca . We meet the seller a German chap nice guy . we finish our coffees and then drive of in convoy to the Notary appointment .

At the Notary out comes the agreement and my Translator goes through it pointing out various points along the way , in one section it covers something about Capital gains tax which she seemed to have trouble understanding and at this stage goes into german speaking and speaks with the agent for a few minutes and then says , its not really relevant but just needs to be in there to demonstrate Capital gains tax will be paid to the Government , Now knowing that this is impossible to be of concern to me as i am buying so not made any gains we move onto the next bit , all standard stuff and so we wait for the Notary to be ready for us ..

In the Notarys Office room the Notary asks for the Cheques and deeds etc and then proceeds to go through the agreement .
Fortunately he spoke very good English and so was able to read and confirm points in Spanish and English and all was well until he says " So it is agreed you will be paying the Capital Gains tax for the seller then ? " I think for a second and say excuse me can you repeat that last bit again !! he says " You have agreed to pay all Herr ****** Tax liabilities ? " Well as you can imagine my blood did some what start pumping at this point . And i said NO he then advised well thats what this Contract is saying !! I turned to the agent and said "What the F*** you think your doing " He replied thats normal and thats what was agreed , whilst going brilliant red in the face and looking like a man who had been rumbled . I said to the Translator why didnt you spot that she said she did but Mr Schrober said it was all agreed so skip through it ..
Well i told the Notary to pass the Moneys back sale is NOT proceeding , the Mrs says to me so whats the problem ? I explain that the little meak and mild german guy selling the Villa probably paid 25,000 euros for it 18 years ago and Capital gains tax due on it is to be paid by me .. She gets that look in her eye and i am thinking ohh here we go ! She goes mad picks up a folder and slings it at the Agent muttering about ripping his head off !! Says stuff your Villa you Lying S*** and storms out the room !

The Notary remains very calm considering and the female translator goes out to see that the mrs is ok and the agent decides to make a discreet exit leaving just me and the owner and the Notary . I tell him Nice try but it didnt work and so now you can stuff your villa , He says we can change the agreement to ensure that he is liable , i tell him to be honest i am so annoyed that you pulled this stunt that i dont want your Villa anymore .He says he didnt do the agreement the agent said if i can save you money can i have a share , he obviously said yes but now regrets it !!. The Notary says i will give you 5 minutes to decide what to do , and leaves the room .

I pop down stairs to see the Mrs and see what she wants to do she is still furious and ranting about seperating the agents nostrils with a sledge hammer etc,etc.. The agents cleared off leaving just us to sort the mess out , the owner comes out gives the wife a hug and says sorry etc , we discuss it and have the paperwork altered and then we proceed .

So be warned this is such a easy scam for a seller and agent to pull off and i am sure if it hadnt been for the Notary speaking such good English then i am sure i would of now been looking to pay the sellers Tax liability in some 30 days time !!! As its such a small paragraph in Spanish amongst loads ..

The agents Schober and partners in Mallorca . were the agents but i bet its common ,so be careful ..


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

Big Pete said:


> Just got back from buying my Spanish (Mallorca) Villa and boy oh boy what a day that was !!
> 
> Having arranged the purchase price and finally getting my NIE number all systems were GO ,, Notary arranged and as advised a translator was required and so one was hired for the sum of 200 euros..
> 
> ...


Suprised nobody commented on my escapade


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

'cos I've only just got in - THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS

IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN SPAIN - LEARN SPANISH.


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> 'cos I've only just got in - THE MORAL OF THIS STORY IS
> 
> IF YOU WANT TO LIVE IN SPAIN - LEARN SPANISH.


Ahh yes indeed Chris but people go there and only when they are set on staying will they bother to learn .. human nature .

Asta la vista


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pete, I'm glad you've pointed this little scam out - its something that could easily happen to us as our spanish is not up to much! the capitol gains aint cheap either is it!!!!!!!!!!

Jo


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

jojo said:


> Pete, I'm glad you've pointed this little scam out - its something that could easily happen to us as our spanish is not up to much! the capitol gains aint cheap either is it!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo


Well seeings as the old boy was 70 and had lived there 20 years or so and had rebuilt and extended and added pool etc, i bet he paid about 5,000 for it .. So obviously his Capital gain is a few Thousand and if the Notary hadnt pointed it out and i know all about this stuff .. That would of been for me to pay whilst he was back in Germany with his fistful of Euros ..

So the importance of a Good Notary speaking English is a god send ..as a minimum a good translator who understands what its all about ..


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Big Pete said:


> Ahh yes indeed Chris but people go there and only when they are set on staying will they bother to learn .. human nature .


I am then NOT HUMAN. When I decided to live outside the UK (Germany) I went already near fluent. Spain was a bit different but I did by then have Spanish family (the missus). Take it not personal - but not doing so is simply arrogance. It's something the English speaking peoples (in general) are not good about. Look at French/Romainians/Italians etc - Most arrive speaking more than just a smattering. Maybe not fluent - but enough to get out and find work. Most Germans I know are trilingual. Many speak 4 languages - most I know are doctors (or their families) though. 

I'm left a bit cold (sorry) by folk who simply expect the locals to speak their tongue. In the UK you'd get little sympathy if you simply started off in <insert language>. You'd get a "Bloody foreigner - comes here and cant even speak English" look.

And no - I would not consider myself a gifted linguist.

Hasta not Asta btw ;-) - Its a silent AICH.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - NOTARIOS are a must. They'll point out stuff they feel is out of context - they did when we bought our house as the mortgage terms were EXCEPTIONALLY good and he thought the bank had made an error.

One point - there is an partial issue here with it being a GERMAN. When I first went out to Germany I was rather shocked to find it is normal for sellers to pay a huge part of what in the UK would be considered a sellers responsibility (I never got to CGTax). Nobody batted an eyelid when I left and applied the same rules. Given that the seller and seems to be the agent are German - maybe (to soem extent) they were playing by German rules. 

But the fact the NOTARIO picked up on it suggests they were trying it on - btw WHO HIRED THE TRANSLATOR?


----------



## decgraham (Apr 24, 2008)

What happened to the solicitor? when I bought my property my solicitor went through the contract and explained everything. She spoke fluent English, having worked in the UK conveyencing for 8 years so was able to draw any parallels. She attended the notary and took care of everything. A very smooth transaction, I always say get the best legal advice you can afford, advice that comes recommended there are some duff solicitors in Spain. I learnt the hard way, but luckily it didn’t cost me too much, I knew more about my legal position than he did! It hurts when you pay but the long term benefits are worth it.


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

decgraham said:


> ...there are some duff solicitors in Spain.


That's a bit harsh - The simple fact is that solicitors protect their clients. If the solicitor represents the seller then.......

Naturally there are some that are much better than others - EVERYWHERE. The one that handled my grandfathers will in the UK was incompetent - but was executor so..... 

I used one here for "labour" issues that made even the Huge partnerships hide (actually Run&Hide).


----------



## decgraham (Apr 24, 2008)

Trust me it wasn't harsh concerning this solicitor, (Abogado) all he wanted was a stack of money up front to pursue a court case, when all I wanted was a legal opinion as to my rights. I knew I could negotiate a better deal and did so. Court in my experience is the last place you want to finish up in. The only people who make money are the solicitors!


----------



## Wils & Nance (Dec 31, 2007)

I'm with MRS PETE.........a sledgy would have been the order of the day !
Nance


----------



## Wils & Nance (Dec 31, 2007)

So what happens now Pete ? .......have you given up on that villa ?
Or is the vendor going to pay for the paperwork to be re-written and not lose his sale all together.....or is he going to chance his arm hoping the next buyer will fall for it ?
It never ceases to amaze me how people can be such "chancers" !........sad thing is he could have gotten away with it !
Nance


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

I still brought the place after the Notary had done the changes , and well pleased with it i am as well 

The translator was recommended by my SOL Bank Lady . not connected to the German estate agent . hmmmmmm well i dont think so anyways unless it was all a scam and even the Sol Bank lady was to get a cut 

On the Hasta not Asta , Chris i knew that ,its just i had a cold at the time 


Chris your theory on the Germans with the lots of languages isnt right sorry ,

My neighbours are German and they dont speak any English and no Spanish ?? And they have lived there some 8 years !

I however know a small bit of German and we sort of communicate with a mix of our tiny Spanish my little German and her tiny English which she derived from our English songs 

So as you can imagine we do have a laugh in chatting its like a game of charades a lot of the time 

Anyways

Gutten acht


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Big Pete said:


> I still brought the place after the Notary had done the changes , and well pleased with it i am as well
> 
> The translator was recommended by my SOL Bank Lady . not connected to the German estate agent . hmmmmmm well i dont think so anyways unless it was all a scam and even the Sol Bank lady was to get a cut
> 
> ...


Moin junge!

Pete like I said MOST of the Germans _I know_ are multilingual. But they are folk of a similar ilk to me - so are communicators and travellers by nature. And as I say all from high formal education professions. Everybody I've ever worked with in Germany was at least bi-lingual. 

Age & exposure is a factor too - My German landlords in '90 were simple farmer folk and were uncomfortable outside their Hessen dialect. I worked in Mannhein/Heidelberg are and there was a HUGE US base so exposure to 'merkin was high and most youngsters were comfy in English.

Their school system IMPOSES multilingal learning. However I did French at school and would not like to say I can speak French. Many folk even if they can use another language - are nervous about errors. Beer helps forget nerves.


----------



## Wils & Nance (Dec 31, 2007)

BIG PETE,
Hi ,Glad you got it sorted, it would have been a real shame for it to go belly up !
All the best to you and Mrs Pete in your new home !
Nance
P.s , thanks for the comment on my "what next" post, I think your lovely too !


----------



## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Very interesting, well-done Pete you spotted the scam before you were stitched up like a kipper, your wife had the right idea.

I gritted my teeth when you mentioned the 'black money'; you are only helping the seller and could come unstuck if and when you come to sell it, and most importantly it's illegal. Your solicitor was at best remiss and at worst possibly complicit in the scam. You were lucky that the Notary was up to his job but as your Spanish is not yet up to the mark why didn't you use the services of a solicitor with fluent English.

Chris, your fluent Spanish would only have told you what an honest Spanish, English speaking solicitor would have told you. A bent contract, possibly two bent solicitors, a bent agent and a bent seller, you wouldn't have stood a chance without the intervention of the Notary. That is unless you are an expert on the wording of sometimes verbose Spanish property contracts.

Obviously learning Spanish is a must, but like Pete and Mrs Pete the wife and I intend to tackle this when we no longer have busy lives in the UK and can totally absorbe ourselves into every aspect of Spanish culture.

I side with jojo on this and offer Pete my thanks for the warning. Perhaps you guys who have bought Spanish property could come up with a list of requirements that we who haven't yet taken the step could then put in writing to our respective solicitors as requiring satisfying prior to the drafting of the contract. 

Another way would to be to instruct someone such as John Howell and Co in London who are a leading firm of solicitors specialising in Spanish property purchase. They sort everything out for you, speak and write to the other party in Spanish and tell you what is happening in English. They even sort out your NIE number for you and can complete the purchase without having to be present in Spain. You would also have the full weight of the English Law Society behind you.


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Chris, your fluent Spanish would only have told you what an honest Spanish, English speaking solicitor would have told you. A bent contract, possibly two bent solicitors, a bent agent and a bent seller, you wouldn't have stood a chance without the intervention of the Notary. That is unless you are an expert on the wording of sometimes verbose Spanish property contracts.


It's why I ALWAYS SUGGEST NOTARIOS. Like I said earlier, they'll question anything out of the ordinary. 

I'm not an expert by any means - but worked long enough doing the IT for a franchise chain of "agencies" ( the one with a balloon ) to now have an idea where to expect trickery. Many franchises are run by ex-IT folk btw. 

One is INSIST the property is transferred with all dues/taxes etc paid in full by the seller to the date of sale. Legally you can be obliged to pay but have a public document where the seller accepts responsibility - so have the law on your side to get it back. Useful if your seller has not paid his community dues - VERY COMMON on Urban estates. And if in doubt visit the town hall and and get a CATASTRAL as well as Local registration edict. This of course can fail if the Town Hall is bent!. Seen folk buy places (whilst here at the town hall) thinking they can build extensions - and they cant.

I've had recourse to use NOTARIOS twice - once in a property deal, where they questioned the details of the mortgage (we'd negotiated a rather good one and he asked the bank if it was correct or a typo). He also questioned the price. We'd insisted on full value in the document for reasons of mortgage - but it was still low for the area. the Builder explained why (basically the garden did not exist). He'd suspected "Black Money". If they do they often "leave the room" for a while when you exchange money. We asked him to stay and witness. He agreed to do so.

We've a lawyer called FELIX on here that's always offering advice. So far I cant fault anything he's said. He's never pushed his services either.


----------



## Goldberg (May 24, 2007)

This is a very strange situation.

Whom is your lawyer in this affair?
Whom is your agent representing you?
I have not heard ever of a client expected to pay the capital gains tax of the seller. Of course every contract is to negiotiated.

The point leads to in what ever country you buy or sell in, get proper legal and professional services. Agents make money by providing a service. True not all agents are not correct.

But you should have a lawyer and agent, and thank good ness the notary explained the situation.

Very irregular. Who do you get yourself involved with. Get professional help. You will pay for this, but it is money well spent.


----------



## Pete (Jun 22, 2008)

Just read this. Thanks for the info

Pete


----------



## gyqn75 (Jun 24, 2008)

Hi all,

Guess what is happening to us! We purchased in Murcia province and are trying to get our lawyer to provide an audit trail of the costs. An email was received and the deductions were as expected until he produced an entry saying "3% Retention". We asked for a written explanation but he will not reply in writing, only saying he needs to meet us to explain the Spanish system. Well the costs were all explained before we started the process and nothing like this was mentioned. The seller has had 3% retained for CGT from the money paid over. Am I right in smelling something off here?


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gyqn75 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Guess what is happening to us! We purchased in Murcia province and are trying to get our lawyer to provide an audit trail of the costs. An email was received and the deductions were as expected until he produced an entry saying "3% Retention". We asked for a written explanation but he will not reply in writing, only saying he needs to meet us to explain the Spanish system. Well the costs were all explained before we started the process and nothing like this was mentioned. The seller has had 3% retained for CGT from the money paid over. Am I right in smelling something off here?


My OH knows about this and is looking for a link which I'll put on in a mo - summat to do with capitol gains - waaaaaay above my head!

Jo


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jojo said:


> My OH knows about this and is looking for a link which I'll put on in a mo - summat to do with capitol gains - waaaaaay above my head!
> 
> Jo



Here we go, he's dictating it to me!!!!!

"Changes to capitol gains tax in 2007. Under the new law all non resident sellers, regardless of when they aquirred the property are subject to a 3% retention of the sales price, paid to the tax office by the purchaser on account of the seller and applied against the sellers capitol gains tax"

link??? 

Buying property in Andalucia, property investment Spain

Jo


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> Here we go, he's dictating it to me!!!!!
> 
> "Changes to capitol gains tax in 2007. Under the new law all non resident sellers, regardless of when they aquirred the property are subject to a 3% retention of the sales price, paid to the tax office by the purchaser on account of the seller and applied against the sellers capitol gains tax"
> 
> ...


Theres no Capital gains payable by a resident over retirement age, but I think that applies to residents, not non residents. This is one of the plusses about putting in a tax return to register (even if its a zero return) as a fiscal resident ..... when you come to sell you can prove you are resident.


----------



## gyqn75 (Jun 24, 2008)

VMT Jojo and Stravinsky. Further to my post, the lawyer now seems to have stitched us up in that the Escritura is deliberately vague about who pays the the CGT and he has retained the sum from BOTH buyer and seller. Will update when more news.


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

gyqn75 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Guess what is happening to us! We purchased in Murcia province and are trying to get our lawyer to provide an audit trail of the costs. An email was received and the deductions were as expected until he produced an entry saying "3% Retention". We asked for a written explanation but he will not reply in writing, only saying he needs to meet us to explain the Spanish system. Well the costs were all explained before we started the process and nothing like this was mentioned. The seller has had 3% retained for CGT from the money paid over. Am I right in smelling something off here?


No that is the normal , They hold that money from the seller to ensure that the due money is paid ..

So dont worry its just the Spanish way the same happened on my purchase the little German Guy had an ammount with held to ensure once hes back in Germany he doesnt hide ..


----------



## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

gyqn75 said:


> VMT Jojo and Stravinsky. Further to my post, the lawyer now seems to have stitched us up in that the Escritura is deliberately vague about who pays the the CGT and he has retained the sum from BOTH buyer and seller. Will update when more news.


hmmmmm sounds familier ,, stand your ground the seller pays his own CGT you stick to your guns  Ensure this is pointed out to the Notario ! if its not insist he amend accordingly . Or the sale is off  

Have you passed the moneys over then ? have you done the Notary bit ?


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

It just gose to show what good teachers the Spanish were when they landed in Argentina 200 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the Argentines say the same thing "we have the Spanish to blame for all our bad ways" 

Hasta la vista 

Michelle


----------



## Chukkie (Jun 25, 2008)

*Not just in Spain*

This sort of thing goes on all over Europe, not just in Spain. The important, fundamental, thing is - get a good lawyer to handle the transaction for you. Someone who is working for you and has no connection with the vendor, agent or developer. I am no fan of lawyers but in this case it's worth it. And you can sue them if they get it wrong!


----------



## Chukkie (Jun 25, 2008)

*Don't get confused*

I see references to 'the lawyer' when what is meant is 'the notario'. Don't confuse them - many agents seek to confuse buyers over the issue. The notario is NOT a lawyer, he is a government agent, witness and tax collector. He is not there to act on your behalf but to act independently of either party. YOU must hire a lawyer to act ON YOUR BEHALF.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Chukkie said:


> This sort of thing goes on all over Europe, not just in Spain. The important, fundamental, thing is - get a good lawyer to handle the transaction for you. Someone who is working for you and has no connection with the vendor, agent or developer. I am no fan of lawyers but in this case it's worth it. And you can sue them if they get it wrong!


I'd love to hear from someone who sucessfully sued a Spanish Lawyer 

I recently heard a story about someone in Huescar who was wrongly sold a property that due to circumstances he couldn't legally buy. He lost all his money. He tried to sue his lawyer and the estate agent. They both claimed they had never heard of him, the lawyer refused to come to court. and the court found against the purchaser. He has no house, no money and no one is responsible.

The lawyer who advised that poor couple (The Priors) earlier in the year in Almeria that there was no way their house was going to be demolished as the documentation was 100% correct. They now live in their garage which is all that is left of their home.


----------



## gyqn75 (Jun 24, 2008)

Update on our problem. After a lengthy meeting going over and over the same topic the *LAWYER *we engaged to act in our interests in buying our property agreed that, due to an accounting error, the 3% CGT he retained from the money deposited was incorrect and has now refunded it to us. We waited until it reached our bank account before celebrating. 

Many thanks for information and encouragement.


----------

