# More "You Exist, you pay" from HMG



## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

The cost of renewing a passport in the UK is just under £80.

The cost of renewing a UK passport in Spain is just under €120. What, the exchange rate hasn't dropped for HM's Government?

Cost of renewing a UK child passport in Spain just under €100.

Cost for a Spaniard to renew his/her 10 year passport, €20 - and they're up in arms because it's gone up a lot!!! + of course, they don't need a passport for anywhere in the EU because they can use their ID card instead. I assume then that the NIE works the same ??

Oh well, pay up and shut up. I guess one just can't fully escape it 

Xose


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## jkchawner (Dec 21, 2008)

Xose said:


> The cost of renewing a passport in the UK is just under £80.
> 
> The cost of renewing a UK passport in Spain is just under €120. What, the exchange rate hasn't dropped for HM's Government?
> 
> ...


swap u for the snow and MINUS 5 in a few weeks time  and i will pay for your passport


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Something I never thought of before.....say I left my British Passport expire, would I be unable to leave Spain?


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

XTreme said:


> Something I never thought of before.....say I left my British Passport expire, would I be unable to leave Spain?



You could X, using your Spanish ID documents, but only to EU Schengen area (ie not to the UK).

That's no skin off your nose though is it? 

Xose


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Xose said:


> The cost of renewing a passport in the UK is just under £80.
> 
> The cost of renewing a UK passport in Spain is just under €120. What, the exchange rate hasn't dropped for HM's Government?
> 
> ...


The thing is Xose, you havent included the cost of the courier service, making it even more expensive - someone told me that that brings it up to nearer 200 for an adult passport! 
I think I read in a forum organised by the Foreign office, that the reason it is so expensive is because it is a private agency that arranges the passports for Brits in Spain, rather than a government agency. Hence the rip off. (They didnt quite put it like that, mind you!) 

Well, next time, I may just book a cheap flight and get one in the UK. A relative of mine, who lives in Spain renewed his passport in the UK last time, and frankly, just for the principle of refusing to be ripped off in this way, I think its worth doing! :boxing:


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

I'd never go back....it's just a strange thought to think that I'd be refused entry to the country where I was born, and where I spent 50 years of my life!


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

XTreme said:


> Something I never thought of before.....say I left my British Passport expire, would I be unable to leave Spain?


Would you want to, Xtreme? And would you consider getting a Spanish passport?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

But without a passport, would you be allowed to stay in Spain????


Jo xxx


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Caz.I said:


> Would you want to, Xtreme? And would you consider getting a Spanish passport?


I'd have no qualms about getting a Spanish passport.....or relinquishing British citizenship.....cos my passport says _nothing_ about being Welsh. Being British means nothing to me!

If it did say Welsh, they'd have to pry it out of my cold dead hands!


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> I'd never go back....it's just a strange thought to think that I'd be refused entry to the country where I was born, and where I spent 50 years of my life!


I travel back to the UK approx. 2 a year, by car. It's only 1000 miles door to door and my best time was 15 hours, including ferry crossing, - non stop! The car was on PL plates so usually I was pulled over the HM Customs, since Poland is the European center for amphetamine production & distribution. On one occasion the Customs Officer asked me "how long was I going to stay in the UK". Not thinking twice about the question I retorted 'as long as I like!'.  I could see that he was about to go ballistic  (how dare I back chat him) so I quickly showed him my passport (he didn't even ask to see it) and explained that I was a UK citizen, born & bred. 
On reflection I think that he was more interested in how long the car would be in the UK.
Generally I have a healthy disrespect for Government officials who can't be civil. I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss. Their stock reply was that they paid taxes too, but I pointed out the fallacy in their logic in that the 'taxes' that they were paying was my money in the first place.
I recently calculated that the taxes I paid annually in Poland, kept 2 officials in gainfull full time employment. Now that I am leaving they'll have to find another job:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm going to have to seriously look into this - like NOW - as my three kids' passports are due to expire next year....and mine in 2015 (although I'll be renewing my British passport) - I'm wondering if it's probably worth going for a dual passport for the kids as their dad is Spanish. They'll have to have a DNI anyway by the time they're 14 for school paperwork anyway. Anyone done this on here??:confused2::ranger:


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> I'm going to have to seriously look into this - like NOW - as my three kids' passports are due to expire next year....and mine in 2015 (although I'll be renewing my British passport) - I'm wondering if it's probably worth going for a dual passport for the kids as their dad is Spanish. They'll have to have a DNI anyway by the time they're 14 for school paperwork anyway. Anyone done this on here??:confused2::ranger:


Not a dual passport, but not relinquishing their UK one and obtaining a Spanish one for them...question remains though. Any experiences out there on this?:confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Not a dual passport, but not relinquishing their UK one and obtaining a Spanish one for them...question remains though. Any experiences out there on this?:confused2:


 
You can't do that Tallulah. You're either Spanish or British. The non relinquishing of passports is for US citizens etc (and it's not really legal for them but they're not asked to relinquish their passports but we are)

You once asked me why would I choose to "become Spanish" Well this is one of the reasons!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You can't do that Tallulah. You're either Spanish or British. The non relinquishing of passports is for US citizens etc (and it's not really legal for them but they're not asked to relinquish their passports but we are)
> 
> You once asked me why would I choose to "become Spanish" Well this is one of the reasons!


Morning PW!

You have a dd though and your OH is Spanish too - what did you sort out for her? Although mine were born in the UK and have British passports, I'm assuming that because my OH is Spanish and we're now resided here, that they could be entitled to Spanish passports??


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Morning PW!
> 
> You have a dd though and your OH is Spanish too - what did you sort out for her? Although mine were born in the UK and have British passports, I'm assuming that because my OH is Spanish and we're now resided here, that they could be entitled to Spanish passports??


Hello Tallulah!
How's things!
I didn't have anything to sort out, she was born here so she's Spanish. I don't think she *needs* a British passport. 
*It's soil not blood that matters*. That's what a friend of mine was told when asking about his daughter's nationality. He's British, the mother is from the USA, and the daughter is Spanish coz she was born here, so that's 3 passports in that family. And as Britain doesn't recognize dual nationality...
I also know a family who are US and Algerian and they have 3 passports each because they've just got Spanish nationalty. But it took them over 4 years to get nationality for the 4 family members and constant, constant problems. However they did do it themselves and didn't go to a gestor.


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss. Their stock reply was that they paid taxes too, but I pointed out the fallacy in their logic in that the 'taxes' that they were paying was my money in the first place.
> :



Oh......My.....God.

Please tell me that you don't actually believe what you just wrote! 

It's like saying "I pay my taxes, so I own this hospital", or "I pay my taxes so this primary school belongs to me".

Those officials must have been thinking what an a***hole when you came out with that old chestnut.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Liberty said:


> Oh......My.....God.
> 
> Please tell me that you don't actually believe what you just wrote!
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about property I was talking about Civil Servants' wages. If they aren't paid from our taxes then from where? 
If these CS's start getting stropy they need to be put in their places, don't you think? ... or maybe we should kowtow to them?! 
PS. My brother is a CS.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hello Tallulah!
> How's things!
> I didn't have anything to sort out, she was born here so she's Spanish. I don't think she *needs* a British passport.
> *It's soil not blood that matters*. That's what a friend of mine was told when asking about his daughter's nationality. He's British, the mother is from the USA, and the daughter is Spanish coz she was born here, so that's 3 passports in that family. And as Britain doesn't recognize dual nationality...
> I also know a family who are US and Algerian and they have 3 passports each because they've just got Spanish nationalty. But it took them over 4 years to get nationality for the 4 family members and constant, constant problems. However they did do it themselves and didn't go to a gestor.


 And they are oops were non EU


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> I wasn't talking about property I was talking about Civil Servants' wages. If they aren't paid from our taxes then from where?
> If these CS's start getting stropy they need to be put in their places, don't you think? ... or maybe we should kowtow to them?!
> PS. My brother is a CS.


Their wages do come from our taxes. And where do our taxes come from? Our salaries, paid by our employers. And where does our employer's money come from? Their clients. And where does their clients' money come from? Well, that line of argument could just go on and on getting more and more ridiculous. So who really is paying their wages??? And does it even matter!!!

The one thing that I am very clear about is that you are not their boss, and you have absolutely no authority over them whatsoever regardless of whether your taxes "pay their wages" or not.

The old "I pay your wages" line (when of course you don't!) is such a cliché and shame on anyone who uses it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Liberty said:


> Their wages do come from our taxes. And where do our taxes come from? Our salaries, paid by our employers. And where does our employer's money come from? Their clients. And where does their clients' money come from? Well, that line of argument could just go on and on getting more and more ridiculous. So who really is paying their wages??? And does it even matter!!!
> 
> The one thing that I am very clear about is that you are not their boss, and you have absolutely no authority over them whatsoever regardless of whether your taxes "pay their wages" or not.
> 
> The old "I pay your wages" line (when of course you don't!) is such a cliché and shame on anyone who uses it.



Apart from civil servants of course!!!!!!!! Cos their clients are???????????????


Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Liberty said:


> Their wages do come from our taxes. And where do our taxes come from? Our salaries, paid by our employers. And where does our employer's money come from? Their clients. And where does their clients' money come from? Well, that line of argument could just go on and on getting more and more ridiculous. So who really is paying their wages??? And does it even matter!!!
> 
> The one thing that I am very clear about is that you are not their boss, and you have absolutely no authority over them whatsoever regardless of whether your taxes "pay their wages" or not.
> 
> The old "I pay your wages" line (when of course you don't!) is such a cliché and shame on anyone who uses it.


Well, if you want to get back to first principals....
In the begining there were hunter/gatherers. Then they realised that they could cultivate & husband. Then they realised that they were producing surpluses and thought that it might not be such a bad idea to barter their surpluses with other tribes who had surpluses of other needed goods & services. Then someone thought up money as a unit of exchange ... etc. Then somebody had the great idea of not working but raping & pillaging. The tribe which was raped & pillaged thought that it might be a good idea to form an armed guard which, in compensation for its input, would be housed & fed by the rest of the tribe. The armed guard then took control because there is always someone who wants absolute power. They of course wanted more & more .... doesn't this sound like Gordon Brown & his gang?
Basically there are the workers who actually 'create' GNP and the species '**** sapien-civilus-servants' who live off our labour. I don't understand why you can think otherwise. They do not produce therefore they don't create wealth in a _tangible _way.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Liberty said:


> The one thing that I am very clear about is that you are not their boss, and you have absolutely no authority over them whatsoever regardless of whether your taxes "pay their wages" or not.


We are in fact their bosses (directly or indirectly) but we have unfortunately lost sight of that fact, which is a shame because they have now become a law unto themselves. Think of it logically; we vote for MPs to look after our interests (ha!) they then creat institutions (with or without our consent) to help them govern. These institutions are called the Civil Service, National Health, Education, Army, Navy, quangos etc. All these institutions are controlled by Government which is employed (voted in) by us. Of course we have no authority over them because we have devolved our authority to Parliament. They are still employed by us albeit indirectly.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> We are in fact their bosses (directly or indirectly) but we have unfortunately lost sight of that fact, which is a shame because they have become a law unto themselves. Think of it logically; we vote for MPs to look after our interests (ha!) they then creat institutions (with or without our consent) to help them govern. These institutions are called the Civil Service, National Health, Education, Army, Navy, quangos etc. All these institutions are controlled by Government which is employed (voted in) by us. Of course we have no authority over them because we have devolved our authority to Parliament. They are still employed by us albeit indirectly.



......... and wouldnt we like to sack the bloody lot of em, well certainly the lot in parliament!!!

Jo xxxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> ......... and wouldnt we like to sack the bloody lot of em, well certainly the lot in parliament!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


... and start again! Actually this recession may be a small blessing in disguise. As sales fall so production falls. With less sales there are less taxes. With less taxes the Governments will have to reduce their workforce (... do we believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden?).


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> Well, if you want to get back to first principals....
> In the begining there were hunter/gatherers. Then they realised that they could cultivate & husband. Then they realised that they were producing surpluses and thought that it might not be such a bad idea to barter their surpluses with other tribes who had surpluses of other needed goods & services. Then someone thought up money as a unit of exchange ... etc. Then somebody had the great idea of not working but raping & pillaging. The tribe which was raped & pillaged thought that it might be a good idea to form an armed guard which, in compensation for its input, would be housed & fed by the rest of the tribe. The armed guard then took control because there is always someone who wants absolute power. They of course wanted more & more .... doesn't this sound like Gordon Brown & his gang?
> Basically there are the workers who actually 'create' GNP and the species '**** sapien-civilus-servants' who live off our labour. I don't understand why you can think otherwise. They do not produce therefore they don't create wealth in a _tangible _way.


Ummm. No, I didn't want to get back to first principals. I thought I had made that clear when I said "Well, that line of argument could just go on and on getting more and more ridiculous". And sure enough, it did. So thanks for that input.

Well, I'll leave to you exercise your perceived sense of self-importance and righteousness over all those employed by the state - civil servants, customs officials, firefighters, police, school teachers, road sweepers, etc. Thank God you are here to put them all in their place and let them know who's in charge. Whatever would the world come to otherwise!

And just one more time, cos I can't resist. "My taxes pay your wages, so therefore I'm your boss". Haha ahhahah hahah.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Liberty said:


> And just one more time, cos I can't resist. "My taxes pay your wages, so therefore I'm your boss". Haha ahhahah hahah.


Well its true so keep saying it!! Altho it sadly isnt hahaha, its how things are


Now, I dont think this is what the OP was discussing so shall we have a go at sticking to the topic :focus::focus::focus:


Jo xxx


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> Well its true so keep saying it!! Altho it sadly isnt hahaha, its how things are
> 
> 
> Now, I dont think this is what the OP was discussing so shall we have a go at sticking to the topic :focus::focus::focus:
> ...


Now Jo, do you really think it's correct to express your opinion about an off-topic matter, and then in the same post tell people to stick to the topic??

That's not very sporting, is it?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Liberty said:


> Now Jo, do you really think it's correct to express your opinion about an off-topic matter, and then in the same post tell people to stick to the topic??
> 
> That's not very sporting, is it?



I think a bit off topic is fine, but when it starts to go on and on and on, it turns it into something completely different!! The OP wont take kindly to getting so many notifications about his post when its not something he's asked about!

Why dont you start another thread if you wanna discuss whatever it was????

Jo xxxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Well its true so keep saying it!! Altho it sadly isnt hahaha, its how things are
> 
> 
> Now, I dont think this is what the OP was discussing so shall we have a go at sticking to the topic :focus::focus::focus:
> ...


OK..I'll stick my pennyworth in. I'm with JB on this one. Whatever happened to the "servants"?, as in "civil"...they have become the masters. £1000 fine if you place your bin 2" out of place???? etc etc etc. I could go on but we all have similiar stories of how obnoxious they have become. Council heads being paid more than the Prime Minister...(and don't get me going on that one ). Little "jobsworths ", who are where they are because they can't get a productive job, telling the people who produce wealth and who are the real backbone of the country how to conduct themselves....for classic examples go to any British airport, it will be awash with them. Soulless council offices, where no one smiles and visitors are treated as though they had just crawled from under a brick.
Any little "toad " who puts on his uniform each morning and sets out to show the general public how bloody "big" he is. We all encounter them every day of our daily lives and is one of the main reasons I left the UK. The place is a disgrace and an embarrassment. What foreign visitors think of it, I shudder to think.
I'm sorry Liberty...but your passionate attack on JB only leads me to believe that you are a civil servant..(or ex ) yourself. There is no other reason for defending this odious system that we have allowed to permeate our lives.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> OK..I'll stick my pennyworth in. I'm with JB on this one. Whatever happened to the "servants"?, as in "civil"...they have become the masters. £1000 fine if you place your bin 2" out of place???? etc etc etc. I could go on but we all have similiar stories of how obnoxious they have become. Council heads being paid more than the Prime Minister...(and don't get me going on that one ). Little "jobsworths ", who are where they are because they can't get a productive job, telling the people who produce wealth and who are the real backbone of the country how to conduct themselves....for classic examples go to any British airport, it will be awash with them. Soulless council offices, where no one smiles and visitors are treated as though they had just crawled from under a brick.
> Any little "toad " who puts on his uniform each morning and sets out to show the general public how bloody "big" he is. We all encounter them every day of our daily lives and is one of the main reasons I left the UK. The place is a disgrace and an embarrassment. What foreign visitors think of it, I shudder to think.
> I'm sorry Liberty...but your passionate attack on JB only leads me to believe that you are a civil servant..(or ex ) yourself. There is no other reason for defending this odious system that we have allowed to permeate our lives.



AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :focus::focus::focus: I may have to report you to mrs H!!!!!!!!!!!!


Jo xxxxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :focus::focus::focus: I may have to report you to mrs H!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxxxx


Sorry Mrs Jo...But my blood boils when this subject arises...ok...deep breaths...1.2.3.4.5...oops.....gotta go...Mrs H has just come in, looking gorgeous...she has a 6 pack of San Miguel in her arms.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Hombre said:


> OK..I'll stick my pennyworth in. I'm with JB on this one. Whatever happened to the "servants"?, as in "civil"...they have become the masters. £1000 fine if you place your bin 2" out of place???? etc etc etc. I could go on but we all have similiar stories of how obnoxious they have become. Council heads being paid more than the Prime Minister...(and don't get me going on that one ). Little "jobsworths ", who are where they are because they can't get a productive job, telling the people who produce wealth and who are the real backbone of the country how to conduct themselves....for classic examples go to any British airport, it will be awash with them. Soulless council offices, where no one smiles and visitors are treated as though they had just crawled from under a brick.
> Any little "toad " who puts on his uniform each morning and sets out to show the general public how bloody "big" he is. We all encounter them every day of our daily lives and is one of the main reasons I left the UK. The place is a disgrace and an embarrassment. What foreign visitors think of it, I shudder to think.
> I'm sorry Liberty...but your passionate attack on JB only leads me to believe that you are a civil servant..(or ex ) yourself. There is no other reason for defending this odious system that we have allowed to permeate our lives.


I was wondering the same thing. Liberty, are/were you in the Civil Service? I didn't take offence but I didn't want to give any either. Like in all professions there are the good, the bad and the ... bloody minded (CS's)! and they really should be told where their place is in the pecking order.
Sorry Jojo, :focus: I have both a British & Polish passport and no one seems to mind.


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> I was wondering the same thing. Liberty, are/were you in the Civil Service? I didn't take offence but I didn't want to give any either. Like in all professions there are the good, the bad and the ... bloody minded (CS's)! and they really should be told where their place is in the pecking order.
> Sorry Jojo, :focus: I have both a British & Polish passport and no one seems to mind.


No, I'm an autonoma. About as far away as you can get from a funcionario!

It's just that I have nothing against people employed by the state ....don't forget we are not just talking about civil servants and politicians here.....school teachers, firefighters and road sweepers, etc are also paid from our taxes and I don't consider myself better than them or "higher in the pecking order" simply because I am a tax payer! If a funcionario performed what I considered to be a less than satisfactory service I would never _dream _of using the "I pay your wages, ergo I am more imporant than you" line.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Liberty said:


> No, I'm an autonoma. About as far away as you can get from a funcionario!
> 
> It's just that I have nothing against people employed by the state ....don't forget we are not just talking about civil servants and politicians here.....school teachers, firefighters and road sweepers, etc are also paid from our taxes and I don't consider myself better than them or "higher in the pecking order" simply because I am a tax payer! If a funcionario performed what I considered to be a less than satisfactory service I would never _dream _of using the "I pay your wages, ergo I am more imporant than you" line.



:focus: 

Jo


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

Hombre said:


> I'm sorry Liberty...but your passionate attack on JB only leads me to believe that you are a civil servant..(or ex ) yourself. There is no other reason for defending this odious system that we have allowed to permeate our lives.


To be specific, JBoden's derogatory comments were about Customs Officials. I do not consider them or their job to be odious, I think they have a very important role to play. I do not consider them to be lesser beings than anyone else, just like I do not consider myself better than anyone else for simply being a "tax payer".

PD - I was never a Customs Official and I don't know any either.


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## Liberty (Jul 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> :focus:
> 
> Jo


Jo - you were typing at the same time that I was, hence my post has come after yours.

Both JBoden and Hombre directed specific comments towards me so I hope I have the right to respond to them.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Can you not start up another thread?? I dont normally mind a bit of thread straying, but there are some posters on here who do!! 

Go on, start one up and then you lot can re arrange the government in the UK and make it all better LOL, just not on this thread!!!!


Jo xxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *It's soil not blood that matters*. That's what a friend of mine was told when asking about his daughter's nationality. He's British, the mother is from the USA, and the daughter is Spanish coz she was born here, so that's 3 passports in that family. And as Britain doesn't recognize dual nationality...
> I also know a family who are US and Algerian and they have 3 passports each because they've just got Spanish nationalty. But it took them over 4 years to get nationality for the 4 family members and constant, constant problems. However they did do it themselves and didn't go to a gestor.


Hi Pesky,

My son was born here but I got a British passport for him not long after he was born. (I had thought the choice was between my nationality and his father's - if he'd taken his nationality, I wouldnt have been able to take my son back to the UK for a visit without a visa!)

I had understood that children with two foreign parents had to wait until they were 18 before they had the option of a Spanish passport. I am sure that my brother and his wife (who live here) looked into it for their children who were also born here, and that was what they were told. He and the children have British passports but his wife has a non-EU passport and she has to get a visa to visit the UK with her husband and the kids. (Or even Gibraltar!) She has applied for a Spanish one but dont think she has it yet after a 2 year wait.

But to go back to the original point of the post, surely it must be discriminatory from a legal point of view, to have a different pricing system for passports for citizens of the same country?

Caz.I


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!


:focus::confused2:


Jo xxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> :focus::confused2:
> ...



Hey, Jo, I was just trying to get it AWAY from the topic of civil servants!

Anyway, the last part was on topic.
Caz.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Caz.I said:


> Hey, Jo, I was just trying to get it AWAY from the topic of civil servants!
> 
> Anyway, the last part was on topic.
> Caz.


Thank you :faint:

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

for more, see this thread http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...pain/31248-liberty-hombre-jboden-caz-1-a.html 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> Hi Pesky,
> 
> My son was born here but I got a British passport for him not long after he was born. (I had thought the choice was between my nationality and his father's - if he'd taken his nationality, I wouldnt have been able to take my son back to the UK for a visit without a visa!)
> 
> ...


OK Kinda on topic here and def. not on the subject of civil servants...

Hello Caz I.!!
What you say about children with 2 foreign parents sort of rings a bell referring to my friends that I talked about on a previous post. But i thought their daughter was Spanish. Will have to check up on that.

And getting a British passport for your son, well then I obviously don't know what I'm talking about there! I must admit I never did any research into it coz as I've said before I personally couldn't see any advantage to her having British nationality, so I was indifferent as to whether she had one or another. I just thought it was easier to have the nationality of the country she was born in. Also I suppose my OH might have had an opinion about it, but we never even talked about it. 
Your son doesn't have dual nationality, does he (Spanish and British)? As far as I know it doesn't exist.

Going back to the original point of the thread. .. What do you mean about different prices for citizens of the same country? Do you mean like we have to pay more here than somebody in UK or Latvia? I totally agree with that. It's soooo expensive and the people who live abroad are the ones who really need the passports.

I hope this make sense, I'm still half asleep. Sorry


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Caz.I said:


> Hi Pesky,
> 
> My son was born here but I got a British passport for him not long after he was born. (I had thought the choice was between my nationality and his father's - if he'd taken his nationality, I wouldnt have been able to take my son back to the UK for a visit without a visa!)
> 
> ...


Exactly Caz.I, it shouldn't matter to us whether they do the Passport in the UK and ship it out to us here, via Madrid, or do it via the most expensive agency on the planet. Surely the cost should be the one price all over?

I think it's yet another blatant rip-off and indirect taxation. Bit like car tax having nothing to do with road repairs and everything to do with more taxation. It's just another form of tax and if you look at the number of people outside the UK, if they all pay £100 more than those living in the UK, that's a hell of a lot of revenue for the FO to fill their diplomatic bags with.

As for the actual passport itself, dual nationality (ok, not real, but loads of people have the two passports and no one gives a flying fudge) and the less than humorous issue of babies not being able to go on their parents passports and needing their own - what's that if not a nother revenue generator?

You exist, NO!, you're born, so you pay!

I think the European Passport will be here soon to save us all not just in this cost issue but all manner of red tape nightmares. I'm sure president Blair will be making such proposals in any case.

Xose


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK Kinda on topic here and def. not on the subject of civil servants...
> 
> Hello Caz I.!!
> What you say about children with 2 foreign parents sort of rings a bell referring to my friends that I talked about on a previous post. But i thought their daughter was Spanish. Will have to check up on that.
> ...


You may want to look into precisely what Spain's laws are regarding nationality. There have been lots of changes in the last several years - and it's sometimes surprising which countries now accept dual nationality in cases where a child is born in a country other than where their parents are from. 

As far as the passports are concerned, I suspect the UK is doing like the US does - making the embassies and consulates "pay their own way" by fixing service charges so as to recover their costs. So as an expat, you pay not only the regular fee for getting your passport, but also the costs of having an embassy or consulate available to handle the transaction for you. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

My children have two nationalities, British and Spanish, but not dual-nationality as there are no reciprocal agreements between them as is the case with certain Latin American countries. that means, as far as each country is concerned they only recognise their own. In order to do this, I had to register my children's births at the Embassy in Madrid. I had to pay to do this, whereas obviously I didn't to register theri births here in Spain, unfair? I don't know, I think I agree with Bev in that the fact that the Embassy exists here provides me with an invaluable service and this has to be maintained so I expect to pay a fee or a slightly higher fee than if I was getting passports in the UK for example, which if we all had to over there to do this, it would cost far more!! I do think that the price of a British passport in comparison to a Spanish one is disgraceful though. The reason I went to this expense is because I don't know what will happen in the future, but one day any of my children may choose to live in the UK and I think if they have a British passport it will make it easier for them to do so. What I am not sure about is if they can hold passports from two different countries, here they have their DNIs.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

anles said:


> My children have two nationalities, British and Spanish, but not dual-nationality as there are no reciprocal agreements between them as is the case with certain Latin American countries. that means, as far as each country is concerned they only recognise their own. In order to do this, I had to register my children's births at the Embassy in Madrid. I had to pay to do this, whereas obviously I didn't to register theri births here in Spain, unfair? I don't know, I think I agree with Bev in that the fact that the Embassy exists here provides me with an invaluable service and this has to be maintained so I expect to pay a fee or a slightly higher fee than if I was getting passports in the UK for example, which if we all had to over there to do this, it would cost far more!! I do think that the price of a British passport in comparison to a Spanish one is disgraceful though. The reason I went to this expense is because I don't know what will happen in the future, but one day any of my children may choose to live in the UK and I think if they have a British passport it will make it easier for them to do so. What I am not sure about is if they can hold passports from two different countries, here they have their DNIs.



Morning AnLes!!

Looks like we're in the same situation as you but in reverse, I think? sorry, bit shattered after yesterday but hope I make sense here...

I don't know if my kids will be entitled to a DNI or will have to have the residencia paperwork - but I'm assuming (like your three) that with a Spanish OH, then they would be?? Although my three were born in the UK.... 

I'm also thinking that if they want to remain here in Spain when they're older, workwise, then it would be an advantage to them to have the DNI??

This is all getting rather :confused2:

xxx


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Morning AnLes!!
> 
> Looks like we're in the same situation as you but in reverse, I think? sorry, bit shattered after yesterday but hope I make sense here...
> 
> ...


Hiya 
Shattered is good, means you had a good time, and today is Sunday, that's part of the whole culture here.... spending Sunday recovering from Saturday 
Did you register your children's birth with the Spanish Embassy? 
Although a DNI is only mandatory at 14 you can do it at any age, may be worth doing. What paperwork did you provide to register your children at school? Do they not have an NIE? When my children stared school originally I had to provide the "Libro de familia" and finally when we came to Monforte a "Certifcado de empadronamiento" but I didn't have this for their previous schools as we were in different locations due to my exhusband's work. 
Must run as I am going to a friend's for lunch as are Norma and her other half.
Catch you later xxxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

anles said:


> Hiya
> Shattered is good, means you had a good time, and today is Sunday, that's part of the whole culture here.... spending Sunday recovering from Saturday
> Did you register your children's birth with the Spanish Embassy?
> Although a DNI is only mandatory at 14 you can do it at any age, may be worth doing. What paperwork did you provide to register your children at school? Do they not have an NIE? When my children stared school originally I had to provide the "Libro de familia" and finally when we came to Monforte a "Certifcado de empadronamiento" but I didn't have this for their previous schools as we were in different locations due to my exhusband's work.
> ...


Haven't registered them with the embassy yet - for school we had to provide the libro de familia, birth certs, passports, empadronamiento, baptism certs (?!) and school reports. They don't have an NIE yet - obviously as we thought it could wait until they were a bit older (with the compulsory at 14 thing), but this question is arising now as their passports are due to expire next year....

anyway - have a lovely lunch - I expect Norma and Mr Diva had a nice lay in this morning, after their very long drive to see us in the frozen wastes of Coruna!

Catch you later, hun. xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Haven't registered them with the embassy yet - for school we had to provide the libro de familia, birth certs, passports, empadronamiento, baptism certs (?!) and school reports. They don't have an NIE yet - obviously as we thought it could wait until they were a bit older (with the compulsory at 14 thing), but this question is arising now as their passports are due to expire next year....
> 
> anyway - have a lovely lunch - I expect Norma and Mr Diva had a nice lay in this morning, after their very long drive to see us in the frozen wastes of Coruna!
> 
> Catch you later, hun. xxx


Hmmm....just re-read this - must be worse this morning than I realised!!

I guess you registered your kids with the British embassy in order to get their British passports...

Right, Our kids were registered with the Spanish consulate in London and one of the results of this was that we got the Libro de Familia. My OH, pessimistic as always with the Spanish red tape services, doubts that they would have fully communicated this with the Registro Civil services in Spain. Though, one would think that is taken as read and would be a must. We shall see. Basically, like you, I want my kids to keep their UK passport and have a DNI, so what we actually need is a "partida de nacimiento para DNI" and this can only come from the Registro Civil as their birth certificate as at now is the one we got from the UK when they were born there. 

Question now then, is whether we can get this from the Registro Civil Provinical or whether (and it would not surprise us in the least) we have to ask for it in the Spanish Consulate in London....and god forbid, go there in person.

Even worse...if they will insist on the nationality process prior to issuing this partida de nacimiento?? Lets see... We assume not, as I said, we already have the Libro de Familia and this in essence is part and parcel of the same family of processes. 

Nearly five years on...and we're still swimming in this murky pool of red tape!

The sad thing is, that it's going to cost me around 300 euros just so that I can keep my kids with a British passport. Bearing in mind that I am British and I was born and bred there, I think this is a disgusting price to pay.

Phew....another coffee now I think!

xxxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Bevdeforges said:


> You may want to look into precisely what Spain's laws are regarding nationality. There have been lots of changes in the last several years - and it's sometimes surprising which countries now accept dual nationality in cases where a child is born in a country other than where their parents are from.
> 
> As far as the passports are concerned, I suspect the UK is doing like the US does - making the embassies and consulates "pay their own way" by fixing service charges so as to recover their costs. So as an expat, you pay not only the regular fee for getting your passport, but also the costs of having an embassy or consulate available to handle the transaction for you.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Hi Bev,

Very valid and interesting point. I suspect this is one of those issues that is slowly being left alone, albeit, not quite legal to have two passports. Within the EU, nobody seems to look much into it. My OH has several cousins who hold both UK and Spanish passports and in the case of those here, some still have the UK one, others have let them lapse...and there is one cousin in the UK still who has both UK (he was born there) and Spanish as his parents registered him at birth with the Spanish Consulate in the UK. At no time in a fairly long history, even when frontiers were "properly" up in Spain, was he asked any questions to do with his nationality. He just produced his passport and off he went. 

It makes you wonder though, if at the end of all this EU process of changes, we won't have the next stage of battle between the various countries regarding one single EU passport for all members...it would certainly make all this births, deaths, etc much, much simpler. 

Tally.x


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

You don't lose your nationality just because you let your passport lapse. Your kids may have dual nationality and just have never claimed it. 

Are children born in Spain registered automatically with the local authorities? (Usually the town hall or other local registry?) If Spain is a jus sol country, it may be the case that all children born in Spain are considered Spanish citizens. That used to be the way it was in France, but that changed a few years ago. 

Also, although dual nationality may not be recognized by many countries (like you said, the country that claims you considers you one of theirs, period), there are only a few countries in Europe that make you formally surrender your "other" nationality when taking a new one. (Germany, Austria and Belgium leap to mind here). AFAIK, most countries (even Germany now) have done away with the need for a child born with two nationalities to choose one or the other at the age of 18. 

Granted, getting your kids two different passports gets pricey - but it's worth it to find out what Spanish law is on the nationality of children born on Spanish soil - whether with foreign parents or with one Spanish and one foreign parent. You can never tell when it might be handy to have a second nationality to fall back on these days!
Cheers,
Bev


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Here's a page which addresses some of the points that have come up in the thread about children in Spain
Must a child who was born outside the UK have his/her birth registered?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

And a couple more

Getting the Spanish nationality | Legal guide provided by English-speaking Spanish lawyers with iAbogado, Spain

Is a child eligible for Spanish nationality just by being born in Spain? - belegal.com



Time for a cup of tea I think! :ranger:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And a couple more
> 
> Getting the Spanish nationality | Legal guide provided by English-speaking Spanish lawyers with iAbogado, Spain
> 
> ...


....... and a lay down after all that activity!! LOL

Jo xx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm not sure about this but.....under the Single European Act, signed by the sainted Mrs.T., citizens of EU member states have the right to move freely within the Union (along with money, labour and goods) and production of a nationally-issued passport is not a requirement for such movement.
However....I seem to remember the , Guardian, BBC or some such sent a journalist to test this the first day the SEA came into effect and although he was allowed to leave the UK on production of a driving licence as ID he was warned that he would face problems on reentry.
Maybe the problem lies in the UK not having ID cards as proof of status? I remember that when I flew to the UK from Prague my Czech fellow-passengers used their national ID cards for travel, not their passports.
If you are not in possession of a valid UK passport you would presumably have no status in Spain or indeed any other country, EU or non-EU, as your passport is your only proof that you exist!


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## pittstop (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm currently in the process of renewing mine, I'm going down the route of reapplying when I visit later in the year since it works out less expensive. But I'm confused as to how I obtain an application form since one website claims the forms are for UK RESIDENT and another for applications made while abroad, but nothing specific for NON UK RESIDENTS apply with in the UK. Any know which specific form I need and how I get it?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pittstop said:


> I'm currently in the process of renewing mine, I'm going down the route of reapplying when I visit later in the year since it works out less expensive. But I'm confused as to how I obtain an application form since one website claims the forms are for UK RESIDENT and another for applications made while abroad, but nothing specific for NON UK RESIDENTS apply with in the UK. Any know which specific form I need and how I get it?


If you live in Spain then legally you need to apply via Madrid. If you're planning to get it from the UK while visiting, then you need to "pretend" that you live in the UK, complete with a permanent address. 

I had a UK address and legally or not, I applied via the UK and then went to visit with an appointment and picked up a new passport on a day trip to London

Jo xxx


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