# Suggestions for Business investment



## Ben100 (Sep 19, 2014)

Hi, I'm interested to hear peoples opinions in regards to business ventures in Andalucia. If you had let's say euro 100,000 to invest, what business would you personally invest in? We've been looking at the possibility of a camp site business but have discovered from the Ayuimento that we need to purchase a plot of land no less than 20,000 sqm in order to start such a venture, which is much larger than we planned. We're now trying to think of other businesses we could invest in and also live on site. Perhaps a b&b or something similar? Any suggestions would be great, thanks.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ben100 said:


> Hi, I'm interested to hear peoples opinions in regards to business ventures in Andalucia. If you had let's say euro 100,000 to invest, what business would you personally invest in? We've been looking at the possibility of a camp site business but have discovered from the Ayuimento that we need to purchase a plot of land no less than 20,000 sqm in order to start such a venture, which is much larger than we planned. We're now trying to think of other businesses we could invest in and also live on site. Perhaps a b&b or something similar? Any suggestions would be great, thanks.


I'd find out how B&B's in your area are doing, what they are offering, what their bookings are like etc before going down that road and also look at what the ayuntamiento expects of you which is often daunting. In many areas B&B are 2 for a penny and are a lot of hassle for little come back. How about something for older people? Spain has a very old population...


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Ben, you will find the hospitality industry in southern Spain to be most inhospitable. Do anything you like with your €100K, but do not get it tied up in B&B, Campings etc. Spain is a graveyard for such ventures at the moment and will be for years to come.


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## MrSam (Jul 31, 2012)

If I had a choice of opening a new business in Spain with 100,000 or taking the 100k to play in the casino, I know what I'd be doing. At least with your 100k on red, you have a slightly less than 50% chance of doubling your money. What are your chances of doing that in a speculative Spanish business venture?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

What is your background experience or are you after a complete change in direction?
I would first weigh up what I had experience in and know how to do, granted not all experienced positions will make a viable business in Spain but it is a start.
On the flip side then I would turn to something that greatly interests me and that I know I can do and are more than happy to do everyday. A B&B would last about 5 minutes before it drove me nuts, but that's just me. 
Then once you have an idea of what you want to do research, research and research some more.

For me that seems like a sensible starting point.
If i had to come up with some ideas I could think of a couple but thankfully I don't have to.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Look at tripadvisor in dozens of locations around the world for activities. See what works again and again and again. Take a trip to the best ones, takes notes buy your equipment and set up your business.


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## Ben100 (Sep 19, 2014)

Well I quite enjoy cooking and consider myself a fairly good cook. We'd want to open a small bar / cafe whether we went into the [email protected] or camp site business.


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## MrSam (Jul 31, 2012)

Ben100 said:


> Well I quite enjoy cooking and consider myself a fairly good cook. We'd want to open a small bar / cafe whether we went into the [email protected] or camp site business.


349 Cafe/Bars for sale on just this one web site.

Café Bars for sale in Spain, buy a Café Bar in Spain on BusinessesForSale.com

Why do you think that is?

Roullette, anybody?

Seriously, don't throw your money away.


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## Ben100 (Sep 19, 2014)

The cafe would be attached to the camp site or b&b itself as an addition to the business and I agree with you that buying a bar or restaurant on it's own would be fairly likely to fail. But thanks for the advice, you're making me think twice although I need to find something to invest the cash in to make some income here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I live in Andalucia and we owned a UK business. There is no way I would consider either investing in or owning/running a business here.
B&Bs, bars/cafes/restaurants are big no-nos, as several posters have pointed out. Apart from a saturated market, getting permissions and licences for any commercial activity is a daunting task. If your Spanish is less than fluent, your problems are doubled.
Estepona is an interesting case. The Alcalde has spent a lot of public money on tarting up the town: streets in the town centre have been given a makeover with new cobbles, flowerpots on each house wall, trees and shrubs in tubs, water features and benches and all the town's fountains now work. The rationale was to make the town even more attractive to tourists as domestic and foreign tourism is Estepona's main activity. Yet the number of unemployed has increased quite dramatically over the past four years.
I have no access to data so have no real idea as to why this must be. More young people trying in vain to enter the job market, perhaps? But for every new business that opens, it seems one closes or is moribund. 
Andalucia doesn't seem to me to be out of crisis yet and it will surely be quite some time before the few green shoots grow and multiply.
PW is quite right, there are a lot of oldies here and some kind of sheltered accommodation venture might be profitable. But then getting the trained staff, licences and so on would be a nightmare for that kind of business. There's also the fact that most immigrants here are not fabulously wealthy and might not be able to afford the kind of fees needed to make a worthwhile profit.
Maxd is right. Look around Europe or the world. The former Communist countries like the Czech Republic, where max lives, Poland etc. are places where it's cheap to live and less start-up capital is required. If you are an experienced business person your knowledge will in itself give you an advantage.
But Spain isn't a good place to invest money of that amount in that kind of hospitality-based venture.
Now if you had £millions and wanted to start a manufacturing business or one needing skilled local employees, that might be a different matter. That's what this part of Spain needs, not the kind of business activity which is seasonal and subject to the whims, fashions and fads of the tourist industry. That's my opinion, anyway.


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## caromac (Nov 16, 2008)

We are not in your area so this is not a sales pitch. We are hoping at some point to sell our B&B. Why?
Because we no longer want to trade as things have changed for us.
We stopped trading about 3/4 years ago and still get enquiries from the old website that exists. That was the only marketing we ever did!
We had significant success immersing ourselves into rural tourism. The area is surrounded by fab walking, cycling, photography opportunities we even have a flying school nearby. Also we are in a very charming village.
Yes it was hard work. What work isn't? But please do not believe that it is impossible!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

caromac said:


> We are not in your area so this is not a sales pitch. We are hoping at some point to sell our B&B. Why?
> Because we no longer want to trade as things have changed for us.
> We stopped trading about 3/4 years ago and still get enquiries from the old website that exists. That was the only marketing we ever did!
> We had significant success immersing ourselves into rural tourism. The area is surrounded by fab walking, cycling, photography opportunities we even have a flying school nearby. Also we are in a very charming village.
> Yes it was hard work. What work isn't? But please do not believe that it is impossible!


That is very true, nothing is impossible. It's good to hear from people who have succeeded. We rarely hear from what I suspect are the many more failures.

But......many things in the current climate make it very very hard to make a living even for Spanish people and not everyone is sufficiently 'cushioned' to make the attempt worthwhile.

It's like investing in the market...high risk investments bring the best returns, if and only if they perform well. But if you can't afford to take a loss you choose low risk low yield investments.

So if you are prepared to take a risk, bearing in mind that we are talking Andalucia in 2014/5 here and are aware that your hard work may bring small returns, you should go ahead.
If not, don't.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Personally, as I've already said I think you're barking up the wrong tree especially as 
an "outsider" ie 


 non Spanish speaker (an assumption of mine I know, so put me right if you're a fluent speaker)
 investing in this kind of business
 at this time
 in Spain
However, it has to be said I have no personal experience of establishing a camp site (although it is something that has always appealed to me) and have never worked or owned a bar/ cafe. I do know people who work in restaurants/ bars though, and it's fraught with licencing, tax, payment and supply issues. Imagine having to do all that in another language!
I think it would be an idea to establish yourself first and try to get experience working in a places like these before investing a large chunk of money so that you get a feel for what goes on in a Spanish bar/ restaurant/ camp site. For a start the opening hours are much longer than in the UK and I'd bet that the salaries are much lowere and the relevant licences much more difficult to get.


Anyway, I'm sure you'll analyse the situation as best you can for you and come to your own conclusions. To help you on your way here's a link to a post I made with lots of links to articles about setting up a business in Spain/ Andalucia etc
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...living-spain/419337-business-spain-today.html

And a good read of the sticky on the main page of the Spain forum called FAQ's is essential. There you'll find info about tax, education, economic crisis, health and the paperwork you need to do when you first come over.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm wondering, why Spain? 

The set-up charges and running costs for small businesses are amongst the most hostile in Europe. This graphic pops up with depressing regularity on Facebook: 










The bureaucracy is a nightmare even for Spaniards; planning rules and regulations vary between regions and even between cities. Often the success of your business depends on how well you get on with the mayor.

Many of the five million unemployed are on training courses learning how to run bars and restaurants - you will be in competition with them.

Sorry to be negative but I think you'd be better investing your hard-earned cash elsewhere - or just coming here and living off it!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm wondering, why Spain?
> 
> The set-up charges and running costs for small businesses are amongst the most hostile in Europe. This graphic pops up with depressing regularity on Facebook:
> 
> ...


With interest rates as low as they are you couldn't live off that amount of money for long without eating away your capital!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> With interest rates as low as they are you couldn't live off that amount of money for long without eating away your capital!


I meant live off it in the sense of spending it. 

You could invest it in a business, work your socks off for five years and still lose everything. Sadly, I know plenty of people who have done that.  Or you could just have a nice life until it's all gone.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I meant live off it in the sense of spending it.
> 
> You could invest it in a business, work your socks off for five years and still lose everything. Sadly, I know plenty of people who have done that.  Or you could just have a nice life until it's all gone.


All true.

The longer I live, the more my views on life change. Not wishing to be morbid, but when I was young and all my life was in front of me I didn't realise that there would come a time when you begin to appreciate every single day. I would never underestimate the importance, the necessity even, of feeling financially secure but you do get to realise that there are also many other necessary things in life: health, contentment, friends, a stable relationship.

All of which is of course bleedin' obvious to most people but alas not to everyone.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm wondering, why Spain?
> 
> The set-up charges and running costs for small businesses are amongst the most hostile in Europe. This graphic pops up with depressing regularity on Facebook:
> 
> ...


Sorry, but have to disagree with a couple of points.

Firstly, if you are opening a bar or restaurant there are many costs involved, not just the autonomo fee - which has a starting rate of around 50 euros anyway. For example you may end up paying the equivalent of 500 or 600 euros more on business rates, and more on rent, in the UK compared to Spain. Not every business is an English teacher! Are duties on booze in the UK really as low as Spain?

Also - the bureaucracy? From my own personal experience (and it may differ obviously according to location) I have found the paperwork, fees and time consumed ten times more difficult in setting up a shop in London compared to Madrid. Again not every business is an English teacher!

Now at this point you may try and discredit my points by asking "Didn't you try a bookshop in Madrid that didn't work out?" Yes I had a venture that I pulled the plug on - I didn't get the business model right (and believe me you can fail in any country with the wrong model). Worth remembering though that another person started a bookshop venture in Madrid just a couple of years back called "Tikbooks" and they have now expanded to 6 branches!! I'm kicking myself for not noticing his method of success until it was too late for me. Remember that according to all the knockers, you couldn't open a book related shop in current times dominated by Amazon and Kindles, and especially in Spain. Tikbooks did it.

Now I will point out some of the difficult things. Firstly you will not know all the loopholes of the system, unless you hire a good gestor. Like hiring an accountant in the UK, they will not only put your mind at rest regarding law compliance, but will also save you money as regards tax, fees etc. 
Secondly, try to have enough money to last 2 years and to get yourself established. 
Thirdly, even if you are successful, you may need to work even harder. About the time I started my bookshop, I got to know someone starting a winebar in Anton Martin/Lavapies. I personally thought his prices were too low for the quality of wines he stocked. Maybe he was right as the bar quickly filled up and gained regular clientele. However the last time I saw him he'd taken on a second role managing a pizza place - the wine bar was getting plenty of customers but not taking enough money. So get that pricing right.
Fourthly, be prepared to negotiate down the rent - I've been able to do this both domestically and commercially in Madrid, and even in London.
Fifthly, always have enough funds for the electricty (la luz) and water charges. You won't be given the option of delaying payment - they will deduct straight from your bank account.
Sixthly - yes you have to speak Spanish. You will get Spanish customers and it won't be customer-friendly if you don't speak the language of the land.

One option you may want to look at is that of a franchise. Yes, you pay through the nose, but it means you start off almost from the first week with customers. Restalia (with their 3 brands 100 Montaditos, La Sureña and TGB) have been very successful in expanding their operations. Of course if you're in an expat area may be worth approaching a UK franchise - Nandos or the Burger Kitchen etc - see if they'd be interested in opening in Spain. 

The most successful startup I've come across in Madrid is that of the Airbnb operator - make sure your pad is centrally based, has wi-fi and modern decor. But there are legal difficulties in doing this, so investigate first before going into this. I did look at one point at running a hostal (a Spanish hostal is like a guest-house, not the youth hostel). The problem here is finding one in a location that operates all year around. I knew a Korean woman who took over a hostal in central Madrid, and did very well catering to her compratriates. she even made the comment that she thought the rent she paid was too low! But it is a very time consuming operation.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> Sorry, but have to disagree with a couple of points.
> 
> Firstly, if you are opening a bar or restaurant there are many costs involved, not just the autonomo fee - which has a starting rate of around 50 euros anyway. For example you may end up paying the equivalent of 500 or 600 euros more on business rates, and more on rent, in the UK compared to Spain. Not every business is an English teacher! Are duties on booze in the UK really as low as Spain?
> 
> ...


Why the mention of English teachers, twice, in this post? Nobody but you have mentioned them, have they?
I agree with some of what you say, for example going with a franchise might be a good idea, especially for someone who is new to the country. Also speaking Spanish fluently will make it much more likely that your business will be successful even though there are people who make it through with just a smattering of the language.
As far as bookshops go, I think Madrid is possibly not representative of the country as a whole. There'll always be bookshops, but there are some regions where there are very few and that stock English books, even fewer. I've never heard of tiki books, so I'll look them up, but as for buying, most of that is still going to be via Amazon and Booksellers for me.
And, I'm not sure how AirBnB is going to pan out. I certainly wouldn't rely on it as a source of income. Your other points I think would be included in common sense and would be pertinent to any business situation


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

> Why the mention of English teachers, twice, in this post? Nobody but you have mentioned them, have they?


There are normally various costs in running in business eg rent, rates, electricity, staff, marketing etc
To single out the autonomo fee, and ignore all other costs, to me distorts the debate. It's normally either the teacher or web trader who moans about it - sorry if you think I'm picking on them! But seriously the cost of running many businesses does depend on many factors, regardless of how many times that graphic on autonomo vs national insurance is reproduced (and it's seriously out of date for the new startup who can use the 50 euro introductory fee).
If you like you could talk about other isolated costs, like company formation, or staff national insurance, that are also high in spain. But other costs eg rents, business rates etc would be far more expensive in the UK for example. Swings and Roundabouts.

Thanks for your other comments.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Poundland (aka DealZ) are apparently doing well in their new Madrid stores..

Todo a 1,5 euros: la revolución de precios no viene de China, viene de Gran Bretaña - Noticias de Empresas


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

webmarcos said:


> There are normally various costs in running in business eg rent, rates, electricity, staff, marketing etc
> To single out the autonomo fee, and ignore all other costs, to me distorts the debate. It's normally either the teacher or web trader who moans about it - sorry if you think I'm picking on them! But seriously the cost of running many businesses does depend on many factors, regardless of how many times that graphic on autonomo vs national insurance is reproduced (and it's seriously out of date for the new startup who can use the 50 euro introductory fee).
> If you like you could talk about other isolated costs, like company formation, or staff national insurance, that are also high in spain. But other costs eg rents, business rates etc would be far more expensive in the UK for example. Swings and Roundabouts.
> 
> Thanks for your other comments.


Most Brits who open businesses in Spain seem to be either one-man bands or at most have a couple of employees. Most are in the service sector in some form or other, retail, hospitality, a few poor souls cleaning pools and houses...Much effort for a small income in most cases.

The number of similar start-ups in the UK that struggle on for a year then fail is quite high. Many fail even to recoup enough to cover the Minimum Wage.
So it's reasonable to assume this may be the case in Spain, with three times plus the UK unemployment rate and very low inflation?
So yes, oncosts and overheads generally may be more expensive in the UK but the business climate is much more amenable and people have more spending power if even most of it is on credit.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> Poundland (aka DealZ) are apparently doing well in their new Madrid stores..
> 
> Todo a 1,5 euros: la revolución de precios no viene de China, viene de Gran Bretaña - Noticias de Empresas


Yes, this was mentioned in The Good News thread, number 280
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/68397-good-news-thread-28.html#post5614753


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## Gareth54 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ben100 said:


> Well I quite enjoy cooking and consider myself a fairly good cook. We'd want to open a small bar / cafe whether we went into the [email protected] or camp site business.


One idea that (might !!) work could be a sort of dinner date site. As someone mentioned the population here is not so young, a lot of retired expats like myself. Although I have no idea what proportion are single. The thought of a date at my age doesn't really appeal, but an evening out with similar people, enjoying a meal and conversation at someone else's house does appeal.
They had a show on Dutch TV about 5 minor celebrities dining out each evening with one of the others, all giving points to choose a winner for the week. This would be a theme on that idea, not the points, but preparing a meal, lunch / dinner for 3, 5 or even 7 guests, and getting the same amount of free meals in return. Doesn't have to be a culinary experience or gourmet meal, Heinz tomato soup, bangers and mash and icecream for desert, it is more for the ambience than the food. 
Minimal outlay, computer + backup computer, fast internet, website, ads here and there etc etc.
For those that can't even boil an egg you could prepare and deliver the meal with instructions on how to warm it up and serve it. From that you might get enough clients to start catering for dinner parties, no idea!!
Would need a lot of research beforehand and I've no idea if something like this already exists. Would definitely lose the word "date" as this would scare some people away.
I came out here about a month ago to see if I liked it here, I do, but didn't know a soul when I came and still don't. The houses here are scattered all over the place, so meeting anyone is very hit and miss, but if you did start something like this I would definitely join or help you with the Dutch contingent out here


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

"Come dine with me?"


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Relyat said:


> "Come dine with me?"


Is that the one where they all b1tch about each other on the drive home? I think I'd rather cook roadkill over a campfire on my own.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Is that the one where they all b1tch about each other on the drive home? I think I'd rather cook roadkill over a campfire on my own.


Too true. I prefer having lunch or dinner with OH, friends or solo.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

This business in my area, which has only been in existence for 3 years (so must have been set up during the absolute depths of la crisis) seems to be doing rather well:-


Trópico Spain quiere cerrar el ejercicio con 14 millones de facturación, el doble que en 2013 . SUR.es


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