# Mining in Philippines



## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

This is in no way meant to be political, just a discussion. I read a very interesting article on the best and worst countries for successful resources mining. Philippines was 2nd worst. 
The article took into account the amount of resources and the political and administrative hurdles the miners have to jump. There is an Australian company taking the Philippine Government to Court for compensation after they closed their gold mine 12 months or so ago. The article related to gold mining but it also applies to many other resources.
The 'tree huggers' are loud and long and DU30 is a supporter, one of the few things that I don't agree with him on. I base that on the poverty that permeates this country. I knew it was quite bad but now 6 months down the track I realise it is even worse than my beliefs. Yesterday and last night a total of 5 'buskers' at my door with pots and pans, drums, violins played badly etc. Whilst I have great sympathy for their lot in life, I have no desire to join them in giving away what little funds I survive on.
So so my philosophising laying in bed last night, I just can't get my head around the failure to pursue as much revenue the Government can lay its hands on to try to lift living standards here?
I am aware that apparently in the past the mines that did exist were environment vandals with no sensible safe mining practices and of course, run for the benefit of the already rich. But that is a matter of legislation policy (yes I hear you, give yourself an uppercut) but it can be done and I think DU30 is the first guy that is in there batting for the less fortunate.
I would be interested in the views of other members on this.


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## Simon1983 (Jun 6, 2016)

For me I was very happy when the mining ban came into effect. These mining companies pay little to no tax and never rehabilitate the land. Quarrying and mining effects the watershed and can have a serious knock on effect to farmers and local communities. Not to mention landslides, flooding and poisoning of the watershed.
So in my humble opinion, there should be full mining ban until such a time as it can be guaranteed that the mining would be done in a sustainable way and that communities were not negatively effected.
I don't know how you equate mining with lifting people out of poverty. Usually the profits from mining go to the rich whilst the local community suffers from damage to their environment.

As for the buskers, those are christmas carol singers. Where is your christmas spirit?


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

That is exactly what I was suggesting, proper sustainable mining. Mines need workers, workers mean money for food and living!!!!
As for Christmas 'buskers' 4 or 5 a day every day is a bit much. I have little interest in Christmas I am 68 not 6, great for kids, but does nothing for me.


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## Simon1983 (Jun 6, 2016)

It will only last the next few nights. I've only had one set of carol singers in my current apartment, but in my last place we had visitors nightly from about 1 October. The week up until Christmas we had a constant stream each night.

We just gave a peso to each 'performer'. If they had musical instruments or could actually sing we gave a bit more.
The problem was we'd get the same kids back (rotating themselves in different groups) repeatedly each night.

With the 'sustainable' mining, I think the Philippines is several years away from being able to handle that. The corruption and ineptitude is too rampant here and so I think they need to clean up government before tapping into their vast resources.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

Again I agree with your that we are both talking about sustainable mining. Corruption here is endemic but DU30 is doing his best to address what is a deep rooted problem.
My country Australia went thru a 10 year mining boom and is still a large basin for mining activity. When China 'exploded' so did the resources sector in Oz.
Regrettably, the socialist won an election about 9 years ago and spent money like it was water on useless and costly wasting projects and hand outs. Got voted out and left a massive debt.
It is still the mining sector that is allowing, in the main, to reduce that debt. 
If and I see no reason why he could not do it, sensible sustainable mining could be introduced into Philippines it would greatly benefit all the people. This was the effect in Australia where living standards rose noticeably.
There is no economic benefit by leaving it in the ground and this country needs as many revenue streams as it can get. 
A merger of the two views Simon would see a positive outcome IMO.
I assume your 1983 is your birthdate, as my 51 is, so we are a couple of generations apart.
I am also a staunch non believer so Christmas means nothing to me, but if you have children, different altogether. When you get to my age, Ithink you may look back and say ' now I know what that crank old bas..d was talking about' But enjoy the next few nights, I will just drink a few extra brandies and be asleep when they get here!!! Cheers.


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## Tukaram (Dec 18, 2014)

This place is a long way from anything close to sustainable mining. They cannot even handle delivering potable water to the people. Don't ask too much too fast ha ha


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

Yes hear you Tim. But have to stay positive. If they allow International companies in to do the mining and collect the royalties, then it can be done well. There would still be jobs for locals as they have to build things, so have to tighten up nuts and bolts etc.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Simon1983 said:


> As for the buskers, those are christmas carol singers. Where is your christmas spirit?


The Christmas Spirit does get a bit wearysome after such a long 'season' here. Then to top it off, it seems most of the 'singers' can't carry a tune in a bucket and feel we should donate to their cause. Gets even worse when one remembers that every time we turn around, there is someone with their hand out, and that seems to be from the top of the Govt all the way down to the kid on the street in a country fully engulfed in Religious Hypocricy. I feel the same as Ron, I'm 78 and it doesn't really do much for me anymore but it was quite a time while my children were growing.

Fred

Sorry for the rant, I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

Good rant Fred, leave some room on that soap box for me!!!
Merry Xmas - bah humbug!!


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

Tukaram said:


> This place is a long way from anything close to sustainable mining. They cannot even handle delivering potable water to the people. Don't ask too much too fast ha ha


I agree with this completely and I'm with DU30 on this one. Mining is the worst possible solution, with far more people harmed than helped. The Philippines is densely populated, mountainous and it rains a lot so all the mining waste runs down into streams and the ground water and poisons the locals. Look what happened in Papua New Guinea to see example of massive ecosystem destruction and harm to tens of thousands of local people from gold and copper mining. And most of the benefits flow to foreign corporations.

In my asawa's family who get water from mountain streams, several have died of liver cancer over the years despite a healthy lifestyle and most being non-drinkers. I suspect heavy metals in the water from years of mining in the nearby (upstream) mountains. Expecting this government to somehow enforce safe mining practices isn't feasible, in my opinion. Why not mine a cleaner resource - the sun, or geo-thermal? Encourage more clean energy development (with jobs) to reduce the heavy dependence on coal, another huge source of pollution. They are apparently doing that on ****** now.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

You raise some valid points JRB and there are clearly 2 differing points of view. It is indeed a densely populated country, far to much in fact IMO. There should be some sort of Government activity to address this issue as well.
At all times I only believe in responsible mining and that involves ensuring tailings etc are properly controlled and treated - if that can't be done, then definitely a 'no go'.
So far as profits going overseas, that is a mater for proper Government legislation in demanding proper royalty levies and ensuring they are adhered to. Maybe I am dreaming, but I do believe there is a place for sustainable mining here to bring more wealth to the Country.
My post was motivated by the poverty that surrounds us all, with little or no effort to address it. 
I think your comments regarding solar etc energy directives are very pertinent. Since residing in Asia I have seen a very low and disinterested level of solar power. Here virtually none in my province. I have never understood that, because there is shyte loads of sun here waiting to be used.
I did read once some years ago that there was some project underway in North Luzon regarding tidal energy but have heard nothing since.


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## Simon1983 (Jun 6, 2016)

mogo51 said:


> I think your comments regarding solar etc energy directives are very pertinent. Since residing in Asia I have seen a very low and disinterested level of solar power. Here virtually none in my province. I have never understood that, because there is shyte loads of sun here waiting to be used.


I fully agree here. I think solar is slowly being implemented but really it should be more wide spread. 
Local solar farms would be much better than the current electric system and would mean power lines could be removed. I'd like to see these power lines replaced with trees.
I'm not sure why solar hasn't been adopted so far. I guess it's because of the lack of entrepreneurism here. If someone can set up a workable franchise model I'm sure people would buy into.
There is a Filipino solar manufacturer (Solar Philippines) that is worth looking at. 
With the rise in fuel duties solar and electric will hopefully become more attractive to businesses and residential properties.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

Simon1983 said:


> I fully agree here. I think solar is slowly being implemented but really it should be more wide spread.
> Local solar farms would be much better than the current electric system and would mean power lines could be removed. I'd like to see these power lines replaced with trees.
> I'm not sure why solar hasn't been adopted so far. I guess it's because of the lack of entrepreneurism here. If someone can set up a workable franchise model I'm sure people would buy into.
> There is a Filipino solar manufacturer (Solar Philippines) that is worth looking at.
> With the rise in fuel duties solar and electric will hopefully become more attractive to businesses and residential properties.



I think I have just worked out why there is so little solar around. Checked Solar company you mentioned and the cost for an average home with a bill of up to 2500p a month, is 380k pesos. As my monthly bill is less than 2000 mth, that would take 190months or 16 years to break square. 
Might not make it!!! So your dream of tress instead of power lines might be a way off yet???? Although you are a but if a chance I would think!


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

mogo51 said:


> You raise some valid points JRB and there are clearly 2 differing points of view. It is indeed a densely populated country, far to much in fact IMO. There should be some sort of Government activity to address this issue as well.
> At all times I only believe in responsible mining and that involves ensuring tailings etc are properly controlled and treated - if that can't be done, then definitely a 'no go'.
> So far as profits going overseas, that is a mater for proper Government legislation in demanding proper royalty levies and ensuring they are adhered to. Maybe I am dreaming, but I do believe there is a place for sustainable mining here to bring more wealth to the Country.
> My post was motivated by the poverty that surrounds us all, with little or no effort to address it.
> ...


Agree with your points also, Mogo. So much poverty for sure. I wish there were more we could do but there are cultural issues involved as you are aware. And so much sun.. I have been though some blackouts that lasted hours - no juice to even power a fan.. while the sun beats down.. it just killed me. If I weren't in a condo I would hook up a couple of panels, battery and an inverter. We get plenty of sun on the balcony, haha. Might still consider it.

I have spent some time on solar training and installs and it is not rocket science. The cost per watt installed is coming down continuously and while they do not have the incentives offered by most western countries I would think one could find ways to make it pencil out. One reason is people tend not to think long term or invest in infrastructure. In Africa they sell small kits that power the basics - fan, TV, a couple lights and small fridge - available through a micro loan.


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

Simon1983 said:


> I fully agree here. I think solar is slowly being implemented but really it should be more wide spread.
> Local solar farms would be much better than the current electric system and would mean power lines could be removed. I'd like to see these power lines replaced with trees.
> I'm not sure why solar hasn't been adopted so far. I guess it's because of the lack of entrepreneurism here. If someone can set up a workable franchise model I'm sure people would buy into.
> There is a Filipino solar manufacturer (Solar Philippines) that is worth looking at.
> With the rise in fuel duties solar and electric will hopefully become more attractive to businesses and residential properties.


Liked your thoughts Simon. There's a lack of government incentives and power company cooperation as I understand it, for private projects. About a year ago I was talking with a guy from the States working on a commercial generation project in Luzon. Lots of headaches he said. But doable.

Yes the franchise system where the company owns the panels might work. But I can't see grid tied working as it does in the US or Europe. There are standards and safety measures in place in those countries which ensures safety and cooperation from the electric providers not to mention incentives such as rebates and time of use billing. 

TOU billing works because most of those grid tied systems feed power into the grid at a favorable rate, ie you're selling to the power company during peak loads like hot days afternoon.. then you buy back off-peak at a lower rate. It saves the power company having to build another plant for peak loads and you get a magically low bill that pays back in only 5 years or so.. None of those factors exist in the Philippines that I'm aware of. Oh and those systems disconnect when the grid goes down - to protect line workers.. unfortunately thats not gonna work here where you want a system that's up when the grid is down.

Nonetheless the technology is available, just have to build the right model as you mentioned. Maybe the developing country model that provides basics to a nipa hut, haha. A system large enough to power AC is indeed going to be pricey as Mogo51 mentioned.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

That's the problem with solar, anything bigger than charging your phone gets expensive very quickely. I have a system in the UK that peaks at about 1.8KW and it covers the whole one side of the roof. I did read somewhere that solar panels are less efficient in tropical climates as they suffer from high temperatures. What you need is cold and sunny like Europe and North America.


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

Gary D said:


> That's the problem with solar, anything bigger than charging your phone gets expensive very quickely. I have a system in the UK that peaks at about 1.8KW and it covers the whole one side of the roof. I did read somewhere that solar panels are less efficient in tropical climates as they suffer from high temperatures. What you need is cold and sunny like Europe and North America.


Right on Gary - Santa Fe, NM is the gold standard,, haha., but in your case you're also fighting the cloudy climate of the UK as well as possibly older, less efficient panels. I have been amazed at the steady increase in efficiency in PV, from 10-12% when I first started dabbling in it around 2000, to 18-20%, now, and at a much lower cost. LG, Panasonic and Sunpower all have panels available with 20% efficiency.

Given tropical sunlight with 1000 watts per sq meter, that means 160-180W sq/m, even with efficiency losses. A typical 265W (rated) panel now is only 1.4 sq m in area, so in the tropics that 1.8KW system shouldn't take more than about 10 sq meters of roof or rack area. I agree it needs to be elevated off the roof so as not to overheat, but there's plenty of solar in scorching Arizona so not a deal breaker.

I agree with you in the issue of loads - it doesn't make sense to add expensive solar to power inefficient refrigerators and other appliances built for use where power is cheap, much less large home AC, although they certainly do it in the US due to tax rebates and TOU billing.. and the power companies are happy not to have to invest more in generation for the peaks. Wish the same thinking prevailed here.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Great input from all members and while the topic seems to have wandered perhaps it can be split off from "Mining in the Philippines" to perhaps "Solar costs and sustainability in PH" I would certainly jump on that bandwagon.
As for mining in PH I would firstly suggest that one needs to look at the "Filipino first" legislation and the ramifications that filter down within that system and the effects on external investors, right or wrong that is how it is, perhaps unlike Australia where we offer our resources up to the highest bidder for the cash cow and what now? A country predominantly owned and raped by off shore investors with little and scant thought for future generations. Weak and non existent control from our politicians lead to resources being exploited by foreign countries, perhaps PH has the right answers, perhaps not but no different in my opinion than property ownership.
The poor people in PH. always smile and live with their lot in life unlike my country where prosperity and definitely gluttony and may I add gloomy faces are the norm. One of my many reasons to retire in PH.
OMO. and perhaps I missed the big picture.

Cheers, Steve.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

bigpearl said:


> Great input from all members and while the topic seems to have wandered perhaps it can be split off from "Mining in the Philippines" to perhaps "Solar costs and sustainability in PH" I would certainly jump on that bandwagon.
> As for mining in PH I would firstly suggest that one needs to look at the "Filipino first" legislation and the ramifications that filter down within that system and the effects on external investors, right or wrong that is how it is, perhaps unlike Australia where we offer our resources up to the highest bidder for the cash cow and what now? A country predominantly owned and raped by off shore investors with little and scant thought for future generations. Weak and non existent control from our politicians lead to resources being exploited by foreign countries, perhaps PH has the right answers, perhaps not but no different in my opinion than property ownership.
> The poor people in PH. always smile and live with their lot in life unlike my country where prosperity and definitely gluttony and may I add gloomy faces are the norm. One of my many reasons to retire in PH.
> OMO. and perhaps I missed the big picture.
> ...


I understand where you are coming from Steve to a degree. It is a 2 edged sword.
Australia is such a large and scattered country Steve, we need OS investment and that includes mining IMO. But I agree that there should be a strong control over the resources, in particular where the money goes after it is taken out of the ground. 
If you reflect back to the mining boom (which really hasn't stopped but merely slowed down), it is a much needed revenue stream for Oz. If the Government would get off its butt and crack down on tax cheating from these large international companies, a lot more would end up in the correct 'biscuit tin'.
Others members have rightly suggested that sustainable and responsible mining would never happen here. Maybe I am looking thru 'rose coloured' glasses, but I believe it could be done and thereby create more much needed money to help improve infrastructure and social support for Philippines.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

mogo51 said:


> I understand where you are coming from Steve to a degree. It is a 2 edged sword.
> Australia is such a large and scattered country Steve, we need OS investment and that includes mining IMO. But I agree that there should be a strong control over the resources, in particular where the money goes after it is taken out of the ground.
> If you reflect back to the mining boom (which really hasn't stopped but merely slowed down), it is a much needed revenue stream for Oz. If the Government would get off its butt and crack down on tax cheating from these large international companies, a lot more would end up in the correct 'biscuit tin'.
> Others members have rightly suggested that sustainable and responsible mining would never happen here. Maybe I am looking thru 'rose coloured' glasses, but I believe it could be done and thereby create more much needed money to help improve infrastructure and social support for Philippines.


A two edged sword 500% While I see your logic I also see the hypocrisy instigated within governments and multi national companies regarding the almighty dollar. Perhaps we Aussies are lucky with a land mass 26 times that of PH. and untapped wealth waiting to be found/exploited. Tax cheating is endemic in all countries, again the laws laid down by that or any country and are subject to abuse. Legally I too can minimise my taxes, not avoid. Big business appears a different story. Let us all hope the now President of this fine country learns from the mistakes of others. Filipino first has a nice ring to it, perhaps more developed countries could learn from our O/S cousins. Maybe a precedent for the ongoing future for survival far and wide. I see we are on a downward slide and credence has to be given to all of the above, global warming (will it eventually be the demise of **** sapiens?)

While I am a slacker with international political views it seems to me that rape and pillage is not the answer if we want to move forward, those scenarios have gone on for thousands of years and now the tide has turned, we are close to the precipice, where will the thinking people take us? Take more until too late? 
Sorry for the rant but there are better avenues available these days.

Cheers, Steve.


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

bigpearl said:


> Maybe a precedent for the ongoing future for survival far and wide. I see we are on a downward slide and credence has to be given to all of the above, global warming (will it eventually be the demise of **** sapiens?)
> 
> While I am a slacker with international political views it seems to me that rape and pillage is not the answer if we want to move forward, those scenarios have gone on for thousands of years and now the tide has turned, we are close to the precipice, where will the thinking people take us? Take more until too late?
> Sorry for the rant but there are better avenues available these days.
> ...


Agree 100% Steve. I won't hijack this any further but there are so many better alternatives for the planet, but it requires political will, and it seems to be in short supply. The fossil fuel industries have massive money and power to use for lobbying and steering elections to those favorable to them. In the US it is the billionaire Koch brothers, deranged politicians, and large oil companies, but it's happening everywhere. Consider that in one hour enough sunlight hits the earth to power the world economy for a full year, and its now feasible to capture it at same cost as fossil fuels, yet we continue this madness. Enough said.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Simon1983 said:


> I fully agree here. I think solar is slowly being implemented but really it should be more wide spread.
> Local solar farms would be much better than the current electric system and would mean power lines could be removed. I'd like to see these power lines replaced with trees.
> I'm not sure why solar hasn't been adopted so far. I guess it's because of the lack of entrepreneurism here. If someone can set up a workable franchise model I'm sure people would buy into.
> There is a Filipino solar manufacturer (Solar Philippines) that is worth looking at.
> With the rise in fuel duties solar and electric will hopefully become more attractive to businesses and residential properties.


Thanks for the link Simon. 

Cheers, Steve.


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