# Foreign "temporary" workers - in a time of transition



## C'est Moi

Hi everyone. 

New to the forum. 

I'm researching to become an independent/freelance/remote worker. I am at the beginning stages of my research and so far, I am looking at Ireland (because I love the people and the land). If anyone has any experience as a freelancer/independent remote worker in Ireland; I welcome your advice. I.e., what's the financial structure to set up so that I can send invoices to clients; the best online bank; etc.

Some context:

I've been in France for over five years; employed with a series of CDD (fixed term) contracts in public institutions. Foreigners with CDD contracts pay for all social charges, but do not benefit from all the social charges they pay for. As of September 2018, France quietly changed the law so that holders of Titre de Sejour Travailleur Temporaire (TdS TT) can not register for Pole Emploi or other financial safety nets when they are in a time of employment transition. Other workers in France have the benefit of being able to have support for career changes, etc through their registration with Pole Emploi.

Employment in France is poorly paid and difficult to come by - particularly if seeking a CDI (permanent contract); therefore, the legal, foreign worker is always a partial resident - meaning, even though they pay all social charges and taxes like other workers.They don't have the same stability or social safety net like other workers.

Neither employers nor even the high-level workers at Pole Emploi know about this 2018 law and have been just as baffled to see that I have contributed consistently for all these years, but can not touch the funds due to the TdS TT card/status. Most people in France presume that all legal workers have access to Pole Emploi, RSA, etc; but it is simply not the case.

This means that holders of the TdS TT work for the ease and benefit of everyone else; but can never have the same for themselves. Particularly if they want to retrain for different professions.

I believe that this 2018 French law breaks EU laws; but I must do more research on this. If anyone has a resource to share regarding this, please share. Also, France law and EU law states that after 5 years in France and meeting all criteria; we can ask for and receive the 10 year Resident Card. Having met all the criteria, I was still given the one year TdS TT; thus condemning me to continue having a status that excludes me from full integration into France.

To break out of this horrific cycle of poorly paid temporary contracts and the TdS TT exclusion; I've begun looking into doing remote work as an independent worker/freelancer. It has not been easy to understand the different fiscal/judicial statuses in France despite meetings with URSSAF and CCI. And I discovered that those who take the biggest risks by becoming entrepreneurs (particularly auto entrepreneurs); they have the least social protections!

The other discovery I made is just how much of one's salary goes to social charges. It's astonishing - and wholly criminal (particularly for workers who pay for social charges but can't benefit from it.) Then AFTER social charges, taxes are then taken out. Check out this salary simulator if you want to understand better. More than half of the salary goes to French public services. I know people may get up in arms about the charges going to public services like 'medical care' in France; but what passes for "care" here is downright dangerous and negligent.

I would have no problem paying for social charges if the system was fair, but having lived through this horrible experience; I have zero desire to work hard and continue to pay for something that excludes me. This is why, I am looking to relocate to other countries which treat all legal workers fairly. 

Also, to note: The irony is France has very strong campaigns to attract foreign workers. They are particularly interested in those with degrees who wish to bring innovation, business and other financial benefits to France. They want to "internationalize the French economy." The problem is, once here; France punishes those with ambition and rewards those without.

France also has a massive problem with regard to FRENCH citizens/residents and FRENCH employers evading social charges and taxes - this is why they changed the law in 2018 so that foreign workers contribute to the pot, but can't take from it in their time of need. They're trying to refill the pot that's bleeding out at a rate that French bureaucracy can't manage. It's a terrible bandaid-solution to a deep cultural problem (cheating/evasion) in France.

French citizens are implicitly and explicitly encouraged to do less so that they can pay less charges/taxes and receive more benefits. France tries to encourage people to create business and innovate, but they make it so hard and administratively complex, and financially punishing; that people give up. I've seen it time and again. French university students leave to have a better life elsewhere to avoid the very traps and squashing of ambition and creativity that I've experienced. 

Sadly, the French mentality and bureaucracy are destroying the nation and encouraging atrophy.


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## Bevdeforges

Have moved you into a thread of your own since your post doesn't really fall under the digital nomad topic. 

I also think you may be misunderstanding or misrepresenting some of the limitations of your eligibility for social insurances. This in particular caught my eye:


C'est Moi said:


> As of September 2018, France quietly changed the law so that holders of Titre de Sejour Travailleur Temporaire (TdS TT) can not register for Pole Emploi or other financial safety nets when they are in a time of employment transition.


All workers considered "independents" (which includes a number of categories, from "auto entrepreneur" to the gérant majoritaire of an SARL are ineligible for chomage benefits. 

But, you say that you're looking into relocating to Ireland, which might be your best option under the circumstances you describe. 

Yes, there are problems - significant ones - with the social services here in France and how they are organized and financed. The same seems to be true of many other countries, though I don't have any experience with Ireland and for your sake I hope it works out better for you than France has done. I'm leaving this up so that everyone here can advise or comment as they see fit. But if things get out of hand or nasty, I'll close down the thread.


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## BoilingFrog

@ C'est Moi: I think you are absolutely right in your assessment that until the system in France feels more fair, people will be motivated to work around it, instead of within it. 

Given how simple it would be to have a foreign employer paying you in a foreign bank account and then simply live from that on tourist or whatever visas in France I have no doubt that is the route many would take. Whilst 'where your bum is while work is conducted' may sound like a reasonable principle to base taxation etc. on, it is nigh on unenforceable if people decide there is no upside to being straight with the authorities. It is a similar issue in my view to the many UK owners of French property I encountered in the alps who rented their chalets in UK pounds through UK banks to UK customers and the French system was none the wiser. 
What I think the article regarding digital nomads was trying to highlight is that there must be a quid pro quo to encourage people who are able (and possibly unwittingly) working remotely from their physical location to engage with the taxation system.

TBH there are structural issues around the supposed principle of free movement that I encounter as a commuter from the UK (presently) to Norway where I work. Despite having paid into the Norwegian system (deducted at source by my employer) for the last 20+ years, if i am made unemployed I will cease to be entitled to claim Norwegian unemployment benefit and have to instead claim in my home country. Given that UB in Norway is in the order of £1500-£2000 per month and UK is £320 (plus minor other benefits) you can see how someone with outgoings based on a Norwegian income is plunged into poverty almost from day one.
However, that is a rule of EU/EEA where you rely on home country systems once you cease to be employed.


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## Bevdeforges

BoilingFrog said:


> However, that is a rule of EU/EEA where you rely on home country systems once you cease to be employed.


Depends on how you are defining "home country" here. If you are resident in an EU country, then your eligibility for unemployment benefits is dependent on the country where you were resident at the time that you accumulated your credits toward unemployment. If you elect to move to another country within the EU, your benefits continue for an additional 3 months in your new country of residence, as long as you still meet the requirements to receive unemployment. Otherwise, you need to contribute to the system for the requisite period of time before you become eligible for unemployment benefits in the new country's system. 

For those places that are eager to attract digital nomads, it makes perfect sense to develop a special visa for remote workers. But for many developed countries (like much of Europe) there is no real need or desire to draw in more immigrants who are only nominally interested in long-term integration into the country and the society.


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## EuroTrash

It's interesting to get different perspectives on immigration and the role of immigrants in a country.

I think it's the case in many countries that being issued with a visa and allowed to work there, does not immediately put you on the same footing as citizens and long term residents. In the UK for example I believe immigrant workers have to pay a pretty steep health surcharge over and above the contributions that all workers pay. I remember a lot of bitter criticism over the fact that the overseas NHS workers who got Britain through Covid, had to pay for the privilege of doing so. And I also believe that in the UK, in some cases at least, a foreign worker's visa is tied to that particular job. If they lose or leave that job, they lose their right to be in the UK. Hence there is no possibility of claiming benefits except in exceptional cases, and they are at the employer's mercy.

I don't actually have any issue with a country putting its own citizens and long term residents first, up to a point, and managing immigration to benefit the country and its citizens. That's the government's job, it's what the president/prime minister or whatever is elected by its citizens to do. I think that as immigrants in France we have to accept that, after all it us that wanted to come here, France didn't (in most cases) ask us to come. We came on France's terms and conditions to meet a need that France has not vice versa

Is the French mentality and bureaucracy destroying the nation, well people have been saying this for a long time haven't they, or at least they say it's holding France back. And yet, it's this traditional French mentality and bureaucracy that is what France as it is today has been built on, and it seems to be a solid foundation because France hasn't fallen to pieces yet. It's not perfect, very far from it, but then where is. I think relative newcomers often go through a phase of identifying what is wrong and wondering why nobody fixes it. It seems so glaringly obvious, you need to get rid of all the red tape and make things easier and more flexible and be more dynamic, or as you say more ambitious and creative. I know I went through that phase. But then you realise that changing x y or z would have a ripple effect and you would have to change something else to get some kind of balance back, and then something else, and then something else. What you would end up with would no longer be France as we know it, which you might think would be a good thing but in the process you would have lost the positives that are, arguably, France's particular strengths. There is a saying, Never take a fence down until you know why it was put up. So if you are going to get rid of this or that restriction or piece of red tape, think carefully about what its purpose is, who or what is it protecting, what potential abuse is it stopping and what consequences will there be if you remove it. To trot out another cliché, there are two sides to every coin. Ambition is a good thing on the face of it, but the flipside of encouraging too much ambition is that it tends to be about personal achievement and ambitious people often to get to the top by stepping on the more vulnerable people if there is nothing to stop them.

So in theory I think it's good, globally speaking, that France is as it is, pushing the top end of the low/high regulation spectrum, because it widens individuals' choice. If they - be they native French or an immigrant who came here to see what was on offer - don't like it, there are other countries that see things differently that may suit them better. I would hate to see all countries follow the same model with the same priorities and the same rules, where's the interest in that?

Of course I know that in practice it doesn't work like that because there are a lot of native French who don't fully buy into the traditional French mindset and who aren't in a position to say, I don't like my country, I'm off to live somewhere else. You'll never please all the people all the time.

Sorry to ramble on, blame it on the heat, in fact I've been putting off the evil hour when I have to go and work out in the blazing heat but I can put it off no longer. Get out there and fix that terrace, ET.


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## BoilingFrog

I live in the UK (home country) and work in Norway as commuter (EEA follwing EU rules AFAIK). I accrue national insurance contributions in Norway, deducted at source, which entitles me to child benefit from Norway, temporary lay off pay, sick pay etc.. However, despite having paid into that system for many years, at the point when I would most need to be able to rely on its support (on losing my job) i am instead forced to accept a much lower level of UB from the UK after 3 months of not being in Norway.


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## Keri22

C'est moi, perhaps widen your search to Sweden and possibly Estonia. Both are very digital, and are no stranger to remote and flexible working practices. I do not know what their visa requirements are but I am sure it is easy to find out.


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## BoilingFrog

and it certainly is interesting to read responses from other immigrants to France on here. Having arrived into a settled community, there does seem to be a 'pull up the drawbridge' mentally once they have settled. Humans do generally seem to seek out an idyll, destroying what they sought in the process. No snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche as they say.


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> and it certainly is interesting to read responses from other immigrants to France on here. Having arrived into a settled community, there does seem to be a 'pull up the drawbridge' mentally once they have settled. Humans do generally seem to seek out an idyll, destroying what they sought in the process. No snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche as they say.


Could you expand on this?
Because it sounds quite cryptic and I am not quite sure what you are saying. And I would like to understand, as this is an issue I've thought about quite a lot over the years..


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## EuroTrash

Keri22 said:


> C'est moi, perhaps widen your search to Sweden and possibly Estonia. Both are very digital, and are no stranger to remote and flexible working practices. I do not know what their visa requirements are but I am sure it is easy to find out.


Yes, I believe Estonia is very proactive in digital services and also in encouraging digital nomads.
Although Estonia is a little concerned about Russia's plans right now.


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> I live in the UK (home country) and work in Norway as commuter (EEA follwing EU rules AFAIK). I accrue national insurance contributions in Norway, deducted at source, which entitles me to child benefit from Norway, temporary lay off pay, sick pay etc.. However, despite having paid into that system for many years, at the point when I would most need to be able to rely on its support (on losing my job) i am instead forced to accept a much lower level of UB from the UK after 3 months of not being in Norway.


But that is an out of the ordinary situation, in fact it's a situation I don't know anything about. It's not the normal cross border worker scenario is it. I guess you must have weight up the pros and cons when you entered into this arrangement...


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## BoilingFrog

Yes, I didn't really mention it (unemployment benefit aspect) in connection with the digital nomad discussion as there I am specifically speaking about foreign paid workers who happen to work from a different country (as the article deals with). I only mentioned it as an example of where despite paying as a local one is still denied full local benefits (and as a foreign worker in this scenario I don't get any vote in Norway so have no voice and there is no political benefit to any candidate in standing up for foreign worker's rights).


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## BoilingFrog

Actually, living in the UK and going to Norway is EXACTLY a cross border worker scenario. I cross a border and then I work. It is not however a digital nomad scenario (as defined in the article) as that is someone receiving pay from an employer outside the country they live in for work that is 'received' let's say, in a foreign country.


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## Bevdeforges

BoilingFrog said:


> However, despite having paid into that system for many years, at the point when I would most need to be able to rely on its support (on losing my job) i am instead forced to accept a much lower level of UB from the UK after 3 months of not being in Norway.


That, I'm afraid, is pretty much a universal of national "welfare" benefits. They're normally only payable to those resident in the country (with a few note-worthy exceptions like pensions and the 3 month carryover of unemployment if you move within the EU to look for work). Back in the US of A I suspect you'd lose any unemployment entitlement simply by moving to another state. 

Many European countries have rules that apply to "cross border" workers - meaning those who live across the border but who commute (daily) to the neighboring state to work there. ("Frontaliers" is the term here in France.) But it only refers to those maintaining their residence in the country of residence, but who work just over the border. It affects the social insurances one is enrolled in - usually those of their country of residence (which is, I suppose, why the rules are restricted to those in immediately adjacent countries - because the social insurances would apply to the family members of the employee as well). 

The nomad designation refers to someone who is working remotely (generally via Internet) for an employer located in a country other than the employee's country of residence. Where or how the work is "received" or in what currency you are paid is irrelevant. And in any event, now that the UK is no longer within the EU, it's a little surprising that you are able to draw unemployment benefits in the UK at all, though I don't pretend to understand the details of the WA that may apply here.


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## BoilingFrog

In the event that I was forced to claim UB in the UK I understand I would have to transfer my accrued entitlement from Norway to the UK. However, there seems to be some discretion as to whether this would be granted. 
Norway, where a good many people are commuters for the oil industry (as am I) has a 'commuter' class of worker so perhaps has slightly modified the concept of 'frontier' worker, or used this as a basis for the rules. 
In fact I heard they had copied directly from the Danish rules and due to a mistranslation they got themselves in some bother after prosecuting (and jailing I believe) some people they accused of falsely claiming benefits, then had to climb down when it was revealed their mistake.
My situation is about to change again as I have now moved to France (through marriage to my French wife) and will no doubt have the joy of explaining all aspects of my life to the bureaucrats.
At least as i perform the work in Norway i am hopeful that the 'taxed where the bum works' rule will apply.


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## EuroTrash

Yes you are right, I was confusing myself about which way round the S1 would work. Usually cross border workers do it the other way round and have their S1s from the UK and I had that stuck in my head, but of course in your case it will be Norway that provides the S1 to cover your healthcare in the UK won't it.


BoilingFrog said:


> Yes, I didn't really mention it (unemployment benefit aspect) in connection with the digital nomad discussion as there I am specifically speaking about foreign paid workers who happen to work from a different country (as the article deals with). I only mentioned it as an example of where despite paying as a local one is still denied full local benefits (and as a foreign worker in this scenario I don't get any vote in Norway so have no voice and there is no political benefit to any candidate in standing up for foreign worker's rights).


I suppose the sticking point is that you are not technically resident in Norway and I guess it would be a little odd for non residents to vote and to get full local benefits in a country they don't actually live in.
You wouldn't expect a French person who, say, lives in Paris and commutes to work in the City, to have a vote in the UK. Or to get UK benefits if his job in the City ends. You'd expect them to vote in France because that's where they live, and to get chomage in France because that's presumably where they will be looking for work, again because it's where they live.


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## Bevdeforges

You may want to check into the laws here for "offshore" workers resident in France (i.e. resident here because your primary home where you regularly return to is in France). They are likely to be different from the offshore workers rules in the UK.


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## ToutesDirections

Keri22 said:


> C'est moi, perhaps widen your search to Sweden and possibly Estonia. Both are very digital, and are no stranger to remote and flexible working practices. I do not know what their visa requirements are but I am sure it is easy to find out.


Portugal is welcoming digital nomads (and usually has great weather too).


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## BackinFrance

ToutesDirections said:


> Portugal is welcoming digital nomads (and usually has great weather too).


In fact temps reached 40 deg C in Portugal last week and they too have experienced wildfires.


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> In fact temps reached 40 deg C in Portugal last week and they too have experienced wildfires.


EXCELLENT POINT


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## BackinFrance

ToutesDirections said:


> EXCELLENT POINT


Well it is advisable to keep abreast of things. The fires in Portugal might have been worse had they not had multiple such fires over recent years simply because there is little left to burn.


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