# Canadians in Portugal... Tell me!



## financeguy

Hello folks! Tons of great info in this forum, so I though I would ask for my fellow canadians to share a bit more of what they love and what they dislike about their new life in Portugal.
Im preparing for a new life in Portugal, and would love to hear from your "canadian" perspective about the things you loved most (improvements) and the things you often miss from the old Canada.
About us : We are brazilians, living in Canada for about 20 years and getting ready to make a lifestyle change by moving to Portugal. Things are fine here in Toronto, we both have steady income and a somewhat decent amount of savings and equity in our property.. but the "rat race" is really getting to the point of impacting our quality of life. We have been debating for a few years what to do, and where to go... a place where we could slow down a bit, maybe work doing what we love most, not for the money - but purely out of personal satisfaction. We do have an alternative source of income that allows us to pay the bills in Portugal, so "job placement" is not a concern at all (although we will eventually try and get jobs there - just not looking for great careers and/or income). After some research about the legalities, requirements, etc.. looks like Portugal fits the bill, and we are almost set on proceeding with this move, but the so called "golden handcuffs" are hard to let go. So, I would love to hear from those that left Canada and did a similar move to Portugal.

Many thanks! I will bring you a Tim Hortons double double and a box of timbits once Im in Portugal!


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## ViaVinho

Portugal certainly has advantages - reasonably good weather, a reasonable cost of living, a more relaxed lifestyle, and so on.

However, it is good to be aware of the pitfalls too: these are very inefficient beaurocracies of state and large corporations. The result is that one often needs to do the same thing over from 3 to 12 or more times to get it sorted out. This becomes very expensive in numerous ways as time, effort, direct costs, and lost opportunities need to be considered. I have become very hesitant to invest anyhting in the country because of these hidden costs and associated uncertainties. Thus, if you are needing to file complicated taxes, buy/sell property, set up a business, etc. the frequent errors, slow system with long waits, poor quality work, need for expensive specialized support to deal with government and other agencies, etc., can be disheartening. How can I put it? You might be exchanging the rat race for a host of other aggravations that will consume your life and make it disagreeable.

Canada has challenging weather, but is better organized and more efficient. For retirees with relatively simple affairs, Portugal might work well and provide few aggravations. 

How these trade-offs will affect you is a call you need to make. Wishing you good luck with your decisions!
VV


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## financeguy

That's what I want to hear... real feedback, even if it could be perceived as somewhat "negative". We are fully aware of the bureaucracy, as we are both originally from Brazil and have lived there over 20 years... we had already read elsewhere about the slow pace, and how complicated small and simple things can become in Portugal.


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## Azropia

Hi, i am from canada and now living in portugal. I have been here for over 2 years now and i have to say i think canada and portugal are really good places to live in. Portugal is like being back in time, your money goes such a long way here then it ever could in canada. Not the mention the lovely weather most of the year, the tropical beaches, and then there is the exotic plants, fruit trees everywhere. Also the people are very friendly and warm. i think Portugal is a really good place to live and i would highly recommend it. Its true there can be hidden expenses in buying land so it maybe better to rent, when are you looking to move to portugal? What area of Portugal were you thinking of? We are staying at a condo with a big swimming pool and we currently have an extra room available if you and your partner are interested? We are near the Sesimbra area. We also work from home..

cheers


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## Strontium

From a perspective of someone who has lived in Canada and Portugal (and Brasil), but is not a native of either, it is an easy Northern American trait but disingenuous to living an a foreign country to impose your expat culture. The attitude of "I come from an efficient well paid culture" so can look down on a country where the local are, by comparison, living in a "badly paid inefficient culture" is condescending. Assuming you have bothered to read the recent 100 years of Portuguese history with Salazar et al and the depth of feeling here about social injustice et al you would understand why the Portuguese generally accept their local/regional and national administration. You can live here cheaply compared to North America as your income almost certainly exceeds the nation average of 11,000 euro (beforetax) and here only 19% live below the poverty line but even they get medical care. With a decent expat income you will be able to have a fine house possible in one of the almost exclusive expat area of other fine houses. Portuguese Portugal works on a person to person level making things like shopping a social activity, people talk to each other on the streets, it may take 10 times as long to get your tax filed as in North America but round here it takes 10 times as long to go buy some flour to make bread due to the social interaction involved on the walk there and back. If you are going to line in Portugal rather then an expat enclave of condos then better that you leave your North America attitudes in North America.


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## Azropia

i never meant to put down the locals im sorry i came across that way i was just saying its affordable. i know its very hard for them and i have been working hard here to help them and create jobs for them, i really feel for them, they are such wonderful people.


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## Strontium

Hi, That was not meant as criticism as you do not understand Portugal, you are looking through North American eyes, Do not pretend you know better then the Portuguese in Portugal. It is not " very hard for them" as that assumes Portuguese values are the same as North American values, Here living is person to person NOT person to money. The Portuguese do not want nor need your pity, they have a support structure that does not exist in North America as they have widespread personal trust. I lost my door key because i had never locked my door, I left my car 0.5 miles from Lisbon airport for 2 months parked on a public road and it was unmolested. If you join them they will accept you in ways you cannot imagine but if you live in a walled compound and get your gardener to polish your car which cost than their house is worth then maybe they will not. Come over here with an open mind and a few belongings and as many months as possible, go see as much as possible and end with a Bull Fight - then if you judge and criticise the Portuguese bullfight you MUST accept that all Portuguese, in return, judge North Americans as narrow minded hypocrites. You may judge it "hard" here, without being here, but 6 year olds walk home from school and when your car breaks down several others will stop to assist not rob you,


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## randikev

Strontium said:


> Hi, That was not meant as criticism as you do not understand Portugal, you are looking through North American eyes, Do not pretend you know better then the Portuguese in Portugal. It is not " very hard for them" as that assumes Portuguese values are the same as North American values, Here living is person to person NOT person to money. The Portuguese do not want nor need your pity, they have a support structure that does not exist in North America as they have widespread personal trust. I lost my door key because i had never locked my door, I left my car 0.5 miles from Lisbon airport for 2 months parked on a public road and it was unmolested. If you join them they will accept you in ways you cannot imagine but if you live in a walled compound and get your gardener to polish your car which cost than their house is worth then maybe they will not. Come over here with an open mind and a few belongings and as many months as possible, go see as much as possible and end with a Bull Fight - then if you judge and criticise the Portuguese bullfight you MUST accept that all Portuguese, in return, judge North Americans as narrow minded hypocrites. You may judge it "hard" here, without being here, but 6 year olds walk home from school and when your car breaks down several others will stop to assist not rob you,


This is why we are moving to Portugal in June, cant wait


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## Strontium

randikev said:


> This is why we are moving to Portugal in June, cant wait


Good call (post hyjack) but here June has been delayed till August. Your Lawyer has gone surfing Peniche so Maria who works 2nd checkout in Pingo Doce has your legal paperwork. OH! you arrive on a saints day so there's no cheese or olive oil available and, never forget, the decree Law 15/93 of January 22 1993 so relax and talk gibberish.


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## Parbogirl

Portugal is a lovely country and the people are great. They take all the time to talk to you but also at the check out counter of a supermarket. So don't be in a hurry. It took me 8 months to change from a Dutch driver license to a Portuguese one. In the end I did go to the office to complain about it. They give you a document that you are allowed to drive but only in Portugal and at that time I often had to go to Spain to work in a shelter. My complain did help as they forgot and within one week I had my license. I never compare Portugal to Holland or to any other country I lived in as every country has it's pro and con's. Here LUNCH is holy. It starts at 1 pm till 3 pm so if someone like a delivery or an electrician says "after lunch" it is after 3 pm. 
Learning the language is very important, even if it is just basic. If you ask "do you speak English?" they will say NO, if you ask this in Portuguese then often the answer is yes but not good. But a lot better then my Portuguese. And children here are extremely well behaved and part of the family and very lovely.


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## Raquelstm

financeguy said:


> Hello folks! Tons of great info in this forum, so I though I would ask for my fellow canadians to share a bit more of what they love and what they dislike about their new life in Portugal.
> Im preparing for a new life in Portugal, and would love to hear from your "canadian" perspective about the things you loved most (improvements) and the things you often miss from the old Canada.
> About us : We are brazilians, living in Canada for about 20 years and getting ready to make a lifestyle change by moving to Portugal. Things are fine here in Toronto, we both have steady income and a somewhat decent amount of savings and equity in our property.. but the "rat race" is really getting to the point of impacting our quality of life. We have been debating for a few years what to do, and where to go... a place where we could slow down a bit, maybe work doing what we love most, not for the money - but purely out of personal satisfaction. We do have an alternative source of income that allows us to pay the bills in Portugal, so "job placement" is not a concern at all (although we will eventually try and get jobs there - just not looking for great careers and/or income). After some research about the legalities, requirements, etc.. looks like Portugal fits the bill, and we are almost set on proceeding with this move, but the so called "golden handcuffs" are hard to let go. So, I would love to hear from those that left Canada and did a similar move to Portugal.
> 
> Many thanks! I will bring you a Tim Hortons double double and a box of timbits once Im in Portugal!


Hi, I am a Brazilian leaving in Portugal for 3/ half years now. We are family we two small kids. My husband it is a UK citizen, so my position here it is EU family member, so I get to leave here as European. We have no regrets moving here, we moved from Dubai, which was sunny and great too, but not for small kids. Over we try to given to our kids a better-quality life. Here we live in quite area, 30 km from Lisbon, it is very peaceful. Close to us there are beautiful beaches, natural parks, etc. We couldn't have pick it a better place. Perhaps is you thinking in moving over, considerate a visit first before any commitment, although I think you will love the place, I am talking from a Brazilian prospective. Jobs it might be the difficult part. But nothing comes easy . Best of luck.


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## snoble

We are also a couple of Canadians, aged 57 and 60 looking to retire to Coimbra in a few years. We are both ESL teachers who hope to freelance as ESL teachers in retirement. We are just starting our journey to make the move to Portugal but have a few questions: 
1. What is it like in Portugal for male same sexed couples? Is it safe? We are not looking for a gay community or anything, preferring to live anonymously as any other couple just as the locals do. Is that okay? 
2. Is it okay to be retired but still do some freelance work on the side? (maybe 20 hours a week or something)
3. How easy is it to be a freelance teacher? I have my doctorate; my partner has his MA. Will I need to register for taxes, or as a freelancer? 
4. My partner would continue to work in Canada one term a year at the U of Ottawa - will that affect things from a residency perspective? 
So many questions, but I'll start with just these and add more over time. Our projected move date is 2022, with an extended trip to look around Coimbra in 2021. Any and all info is greatly appreciated!!


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## ViaVinho

snoble said:


> We are also a couple of Canadians, aged 57 and 60 looking to retire to Coimbra in a few years. We are both ESL teachers who hope to freelance as ESL teachers in retirement. We are just starting our journey to make the move to Portugal but have a few questions:
> 1. What is it like in Portugal for male same sexed couples? Is it safe? We are not looking for a gay community or anything, preferring to live anonymously as any other couple just as the locals do. Is that okay?
> 2. Is it okay to be retired but still do some freelance work on the side? (maybe 20 hours a week or something)
> 3. How easy is it to be a freelance teacher? I have my doctorate; my partner has his MA. Will I need to register for taxes, or as a freelancer?
> 4. My partner would continue to work in Canada one term a year at the U of Ottawa - will that affect things from a residency perspective?
> So many questions, but I'll start with just these and add more over time. Our projected move date is 2022, with an extended trip to look around Coimbra in 2021. Any and all info is greatly appreciated!!



1. There is relatively little violent crime in Portugal - it is rather safe. In Lisbon, there is likely to be no problem. In smaller places, some people might eschew you, others would not mind, others might accept you for who you are. Though the Portuguese are by-and-large very friendly, they are human and have their differences. My perception is that most serious differences that cannot be resolved result in people not being on speaking terms with each other (or with one another when several persons are involved). In general, I suspect that you will be ok.
2. Not sure, but I suspect that you will have to register as self employed (autonomo).
3. Not sure either, but might work with ESL.
4. Would need to consult the tax treaty between PT and Canada - most likely articles 15 and 18 are of relevance with respect to fiscal residency. It is available on the Government of Canada website: "Convention Between Canada and the Portuguese Republic For the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with Respect to Taxes on Income". It should not affect 'civil' residency that is administered by a different authority.

Keep in mind that the Portuguese bureaucracy is slow and quirky - what you hear from one official might be quite different from what you hear from another on the same topic.

Good luck with your plans!
VV


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## snoble

Thank you VV for the quick reply and very informative at that. Do common-law couples have to register as a couple? How do they do that if there is no marriage certificate? Are common law couples legal in Portugal? I know in some countries common-law couples, particularly same-sexed couples, have to apply for immigration as individuals rather than as a couple. Thanks for your insights!!

SteveN


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## ViaVinho

snoble said:


> Thank you VV for the quick reply and very informative at that. Do common-law couples have to register as a couple? How do they do that if there is no marriage certificate? Are common law couples legal in Portugal? I know in some countries common-law couples, particularly same-sexed couples, have to apply for immigration as individuals rather than as a couple. Thanks for your insights!!
> 
> SteveN


Hello SteveN,
I am unable to provide any insight regarding your latest questions. Might I suggest a Google search - it just might yield something useful?
VV


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## Genych

Raquelstm said:


> Hi, I am a Brazilian leaving in Portugal for 3/ half years now. We are family we two small kids. My husband it is a UK citizen, so my position here it is EU family member, so I get to leave here as European. We have no regrets moving here, we moved from Dubai, which was sunny and great too, but not for small kids. Over we try to given to our kids a better-quality life. Here we live in quite area, 30 km from Lisbon, it is very peaceful. Close to us there are beautiful beaches, natural parks, etc. We couldn't have pick it a better place. Perhaps is you thinking in moving over, considerate a visit first before any commitment, although I think you will love the place, I am talking from a Brazilian prospective. Jobs it might be the difficult part. But nothing comes easy . Best of luck.


What area 30 km from Lisbon you live in, if that's not a secret?


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