# Italian descent, second generation, Really? I can get a Italian passport?



## boat

Hello all- I have been reading about the blood line path for citizenship in Italy. My Great grandpa came over to the USA in about 1904. Had my grandma in 1919 in NY. Got his US citizenship in 1927 in Ohio. My grandma gave birth to my dad in 1939 in Ohio and he gave me birth in 1963 in Texas. 

This I understand means I am a second generation Italian decent. This is due to the female linage before 1948 breaking the path? I have read that I can now simply go to Italy and reside for three years and that qualifies me for an Italian passport? 

Is that really true? Is it that simple? Awesome! And how many days a year do I have to reside in Italy to qualify? During that time could I work? How about self employed? How about as a writer? 

Right now I travel for a living (work on a boat) and thus pay my taxes in NZ, and file in the US to tell them I file in NZ. Would this mean I would have to file in Italy also? 

Would my US wife be able to join me for the three year residency? We have independent income and would not have to work, but would like to continue working. 

Can we buy property? Would that help our permit process?

Finding information on the blood line was easy on the net, but the questions about the three year residency are not so available, thus my questions. 

Anybody have any information on these questions? I would love to hear. 

Thanks!


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## BBCWatcher

boat said:


> My Great grandpa came over to the USA in about 1904. Had my grandma in 1919 in NY. Got his US citizenship in 1927 in Ohio. My grandma gave birth to my dad in 1939 in Ohio and he gave me birth in 1963 in Texas.
> 
> This I understand means I am a second generation Italian decent. This is due to the female linage before 1948 breaking the path? I have read that I can now simply go to Italy and reside for three years and that qualifies me for an Italian passport?


Well, yes, but there's an easier way.

The "1948 rule" refers to the Italian Constitution which came into force on January 1, 1948. According to the Italian Interior Ministry, Foreign Ministry, and its consulates, the Constitution was not retroactive in its effect on Italian women. Thus they believe that children born before 1948 required an Italian citizen-father according to their interpretation of the law.

Fortunately, however, that interpretation has been challenged in Italian court. It's now perfectly routine for Italian courts to say that, no, indeed Italian citizen-mothers could pass citizenship to their children before 1948. Or at least that the 1948 Constitution has retroactive effect.

So if you file a lawsuit in Italy an Italian court is extremely likely to grant you citizenship recognition. You do not have to even travel to Italy, and there are several attorneys who specialize in such "1948 cases." It costs a few thousand euro to pursue such a case.

If the Italian government is losing every case in court, why haven't they changed their stance? (Or why aren't they forced to?) Unlike in, say, the United States, individual court cases are not binding in Italy. The government can lose hundreds of times in court, losing every case, and they can still stick to their views.



> Right now I travel for a living (work on a boat) and thus pay my taxes in NZ, and file in the US to tell them I file in NZ. Would this mean I would have to file in Italy also?


If you are not resident in Italy, and you do not have income from Italy, you would not file a tax return in Italy. There is no tax obligation derived solely as a result of documented Italian citizenship.



> Would my US wife be able to join me for the three year residency? We have independent income and would not have to work, but would like to continue working.


Your wife can join you immediately as a recognized Italian citizen. (Court cases take about one year.)

Anyway, your best bet is to search the Internet for "1948 cases" and find information on the attorneys specializing in that niche of Italian citizenship law, research their records, then contact them to get more information on the process and an estimate of the costs. You will need to provide a substantial amount of documentation in the form of civil records: birth, marriage, and death certificates, as examples. That'll take some work and time since you'll have to go back a couple generations, but it's very doable especially if you're a detailed-oriented person and patient with postal services.


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## yosheryosh

Hi, sorry but absolutely NO idea what BBCWatcher is talking about.

I am second generation with almost exactly the same situation as you.

Forget about searching lawsuits etc...

Easy way (what I did): hire somebody who specifically specializes in this. He acquires all papers for you, you go to your local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.

Hard way: acquire all the papers yourself, go to the local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.

It's THAT easy.


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## boat

Thank you BBC Watcher and yosheryov- BBC you amaze me with your knowledge base. Wow.

So, I have now contacted a lawyer in Italy specializing in 1948 cases called Luigi who says he has won over 100 such cases. He has not sent an email back but it was only an hour ago and its late Friday over in Italy. I guess I should not be too anxious. I will report back what I find.

Yosheryov- You were in the almost the same situation as me and were able to get a second generation Italian passport? That sounds awesome. What consulate did you use? I hear some are fast and some are slow. And how did you get around the lack of direct linage? Did that ever come up? And was your original great grand dad from Italy? How did you manage to find his birth certificate? My GGF was born in 1883 and I am just now starting to try and find his birth certificate. I am starting by asking old family members if they know what city he was from, but is there an easier way? The thought of trying to find those old records from 150 years and a few world wars past sounds like fun, but also a bit time consuming. 

Through Ancestry.com I have found his 1915 and 1925 cenos reports, and his 1927 Naturalization record. Everything after that point is easy. That is marriage, death, birth certificates. They are all public record and easy to order, or so it seems at this point. 

Thanks again for all the help.


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## yosheryosh

boat said:


> Thank you BBC Watcher and yosheryov- BBC you amaze me with your knowledge base. Wow.
> 
> 
> Yosheryov- You were in the almost the same situation as me and were able to get a second generation Italian passport? That sounds awesome. What consulate did you use? I hear some are fast and some are slow. And how did you get around the lack of direct linage? Did that ever come up? And was your original great grand dad from Italy? How did you manage to find his birth certificate? My GGF was born in 1883 and I am just now starting to try and find his birth certificate. I am starting by asking old family members if they know what city he was from, but is there an easier way? The thought of trying to find those old records from 150 years and a few world wars past sounds like fun, but also a bit time consuming.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.


I paid someone to do it for me and my mother. It was worth the headache for him to do it. He has a full service program and discount programs (i think) where you get the papers and he guides you .... for me it was 1000% worth it. I didn't have to contact any agencies in america, or italy. You need A LOT of paperwork. 

You just use the consolate where you live (you have to by law).


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## yosheryosh

edit: i probably need to apologize to bbcwatcher, he knows a lot about the subject, he seems to be a moderator on a message board dedicated to this.

However I had a full service program done for me and did not have to deal with any of the above. Was a total headache free way to do it.


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## boat

Thank you for the update. The question I have is did you have the linage broken by a female in the linage before 1948? Or was your mother born after 1948? And was it your grand pa or grandma that provided the linage? 

That is the tricky part that BBC I think was talking about and where I am stuck.

For my linage I depend on my grandma, born in 1919 who gave birth to my dad in 1939, so the linage is broken at that point unless I do something tricky. Was that the same with you? 

It would be great if you would PM me the name of the guy you used to get through the system. I would be happy to pay someone to do much of the legwork. 

Scott


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## BBCWatcher

Scott, you're correct. You have a "1948 case," meaning that you are relying on someone in your family line that was born before 1948 to an Italian citizen-mother, not an Italian citizen-father. The Interior and Foreign Ministries (communes and consulates) don't consider such children to have been born as Italian citizens because they don't currently consider the Italian Constitution retroactive in its effect. Italian courts do, routinely. Yes, you've mentioned the first name of one attorney in Italy who specializes in bringing such cases.

I think Yosheryosh is referring to the generalized situation for consulate/commune citizenship recognition cases that you can hire someone to gather the paperwork for you and prepare it for your citizenship recognition application and appointment. And sure, you can do that if you have a case that a consulate or commune would accept. We might disagree about whether most individuals ought to be hiring somebody to do that work for their own citizenship recognition cases.


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## Judigiac

Hello - I am a second generation female - my father's parents both came from Sicily and my mother's father from Rome. I tried a long time ago to start the paper work but the Italian Embassy in Boston gave me such a hard time - as my grandparents (Sicillian) entree papers to the U.S. had many mistakes in it. The also said I would have to give up my American Passport! So I quit. BUT now I'm thinking and dreaming about retiring there. Someone mentioned a lawyer - but did not give a name or how they paid them. Please direct me to a safe and reliable lawyer if you can. I know I can not handle the paperwork myself. And can I go to the Italian Embassy in Kuwait, as that is where I live now. THANKS FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS OR HELP!


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## NickZ

BBCWatcher said:


> If the Italian government is losing every case in court, why haven't they changed their stance? (Or why aren't they forced to?) Unlike in, say, the United States, individual court cases are not binding in Italy. The government can lose hundreds of times in court, losing every case, and they can still stick to their views.
> .


You don't lose unless a case goes to the Italian version of the Supreme court (Or in this case the constitutional court) or the other side gives up. All the government needs to do is give notice of appeal to the next level.

How many of those cases have made it all the way to the highest court? Any?

It's no different then criminal court. You aren't "guilty" until you've gone the full route. All three levels.


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## Bevdeforges

Judigiac said:


> Hello - I am a second generation female - my father's parents both came from Sicily and my mother's father from Rome. I tried a long time ago to start the paper work but the Italian Embassy in Boston gave me such a hard time - as my grandparents (Sicillian) entree papers to the U.S. had many mistakes in it. The also said I would have to give up my American Passport! So I quit. BUT now I'm thinking and dreaming about retiring there. Someone mentioned a lawyer - but did not give a name or how they paid them. Please direct me to a safe and reliable lawyer if you can. I know I can not handle the paperwork myself. And can I go to the Italian Embassy in Kuwait, as that is where I live now. THANKS FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS OR HELP!


Depending on how long ago it was it is entirely possible that the Boston Embassy was correct. It used to be the case that you would have to give up your other nationality to take on Italian nationality - or give up your Italian nationality to take on another nationality. Don't know when it changed, but I hang out with a group of Italian ladies here in France who have their own war stories about the rule. 

You don't have to take Italian nationality to retire to Italy, but in any event the rules have changed and if you want to pursue the nationality now, you shouldn't have to give up your US passport. Start by inquiring at the Embassy where you now live.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Bevdeforges said:


> It used to be the case that you would have to give up your other nationality to take on Italian nationality....


No, that's _never_ been the case (except for a very few bilateral treaties which never applied to U.S. citizenship).

Whether the other country wants to terminate its citizenship is up to that other country, but Italy has never legally cared whether an individual possessed (and continued to possess) another citizenship when born as or naturalizing as an Italian citizen. Italy has only legally cared (and not always, and not since August 15, 1992) when an Italian acquired a foreign citizenship through naturalization.

It sounds like the consulate in Boston gave bad advice (it happens on occasion to the best of us), or perhaps the generic advice (that the Italian government cannot control what some other government does or doesn't do) was misinterpreted or overinterpreted.



> Don't know when it changed, but I hang out with a group of Italian ladies here in France who have their own war stories about the rule.


And that was a special, narrow exception. France and Italy had (past tense) a treaty that cut down on dual French and Italian citizenship. That bilateral treaty never had relevance to non-French citizenships (and didn't always have relevance to French citizenships).


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## Bevdeforges

All I know is the experiences of my Italian friends as they have told me. The point, however, was that things have changed over time and it's certainly worth it all to ask again at the local Italian embassy/consulate. (Certainly before hiring a lawyer!)

Oh yes, and the little detail that you don't actually need to take Italian citizenship before retiring to Italy. (In fact, it may be somewhat easier, or at least more efficient, to look into the claim of Italian nationality once you're "inside.")
Cheers,
Bev


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## Morbecknaga

Hi, I'm pretty sure I have a "1948 Case". My maternal grandmother was born in 1932 in the USA and her mother (my maternal great-grandmother) was born in Italy in 1898 and was Naturalized in 1943. My maternal great-grandfather was also an Italian citizen at some point, but I think (need to double-check) he became a US citizen before my maternal grandmother was born in 1932.

Does anyone have any current info on the 1948 cases? Are they still going through? How long does the process generally cost/take? Has anyone here had any experience with attorneys who deal with cases like these? Any info helps!

-Morbeck

Just to update, I have seen BBCWatcher's post from 2014, I'm just trying to figure out if anything has changed since then (or if there is any additional info that has come to light in the meantime). Thanks!


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## accbgb

Yes, sounds like a classic 1948 case.

There is an Italian attorney, Luigi Paiano, who has made quite a career of handling these cases. Google his name; he'll be right there near the top of the results.


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## BBCWatcher

No change since about 2009 when Italian courts started ruling in favor of this class of plaintiffs except that the government no longer even bothers to contest them routinely.


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## OZZY1904

*Italian Citienzhip*

Are you saying that you do not need to use a lawyer and file a law suite, are you saying you can fight the 1948 rules by going to your local italian consulate and presenting all you correct documentation to them, in my case australia ?

Please advise.

Regards




yosheryosh said:


> hi, sorry but absolutely no idea what bbcwatcher is talking about.
> 
> I am second generation with almost exactly the same situation as you.
> 
> Forget about searching lawsuits etc...
> 
> Easy way (what i did): Hire somebody who specifically specializes in this. He acquires all papers for you, you go to your local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.
> 
> Hard way: Acquire all the papers yourself, go to the local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.
> 
> It's that easy.


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## OZZY1904

*1948 Rule*

Are you saying that you do not need to use a lawyer and file a law suite, are you saying you can fight the 1948 rules by going to your local italian consulate and presenting all your correct documentation to them, in my case australia ?

Please advise.

Regards

ozzy1904



yosheryosh said:


> hi, sorry but absolutely no idea what bbcwatcher is talking about.
> 
> I am second generation with almost exactly the same situation as you.
> 
> Forget about searching lawsuits etc...
> 
> Easy way (what i did): Hire somebody who specifically specializes in this. He acquires all papers for you, you go to your local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.
> 
> Hard way: Acquire all the papers yourself, go to the local italian consulate, apply, and in x amount of time you are an italian citizen.
> 
> It's that easy.


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## Italia-Mx

If you were born prior to 1948 and your direct ancestor is an Italian female, she did not pass Italian citizenship to you so you cannot process this kind of case on your own through a consulate. You would have to hire an Italian lawyer that specializes in this kind of citizenship lawsuit case and hope you win.


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## panama rick

Italia-MX is correct. My wife is currently going through the process. Our attorney (Luigi Paiano) petitioned the courts on my wife's behalf and was successful. Her paperwork is with the commune of her grandmothers birth for certification. The key factor is that the ancestor you're going through cannot have been granted citizenship in another country prior to the birth of (in your case; father) before he was born. In other words, if your grandmother was given US citizenship then gave birth to your father he is considered a US citizen.
Best advice, email Luigi Paiano and outline your situation. He's very responsive. Good luck.


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