# Moving to durban sa



## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

We are looking at moving to durban and my husband has been offered a job and is just going through the red tape with the company who will be sending him there.

Can any one tell me how long it takes to get a temp work visa and how much the cost of living is and the average wage {poor good vgood}.

Also what the schools are like as we have three children we will be taking out with us when my husband is settled.

And the big Question how safe is durban and also port Elizabeth aas that is the other destination we are lookin at.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

clarewood931 said:


> We are looking at moving to durban and my husband has been offered a job and is just going through the red tape with the company who will be sending him there.
> 
> Can any one tell me how long it takes to get a temp work visa and how much the cost of living is and the average wage {poor good vgood}.
> 
> ...



Hiya, if you read through the threads on here you will probably see that the general advice is that security will be a major consideration in your move


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Durban and Port Elizabeth are very nice and safe cities to live in. Schools wise they both have some excellent ones. Depending on your budget you might want to consider the private options of "michaelhouse " (durban way) or "woodridge" (P.E way).

http://www.michaelhouse.org/HomePage1.aspx

Woodridge College & Preparatory School - Port Elizabeth, South Africa


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Durban and Port Elizabeth are very nice and safe cities to live in. Schools wise they both have some excellent ones. Depending on your budget you might want to consider the private options of "michaelhouse " (durban way) or "woodridge" (P.E way).
> 
> http://www.michaelhouse.org/HomePage1.aspx
> 
> Woodridge College & Preparatory School - Port Elizabeth, South Africa


Crime statistics to 2006 in Durban - Has it got better now 
Crime Statistics 2006: KwaZulu-Natal


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Crime statistics to 2006 in Durban - Has it got better now
> Crime Statistics 2006: KwaZulu-Natal


There we go....those statistics represent what goes on in the poorest crappiest part of the province. That's a whole other world to what the middle classes live in. That's something that is lost in trabslation of these statistics. The things the poor experience are not the same as the middle classes experience. That's like someone wanting to live in San francisco and showing them the crime rate in Detroit. Keep it real buddy.

I mean go to the townships in Rio, Brazil and you'll find extremely high crime statistics ...but would you let that convince you that the suburbs of Rio were a dangerous place to live ? 

When I say "South Africa is safe" ...I say that in full knowledge you're not going to move into hillbrow or the middle of Soweto. Really....compare apples with apples.

You just have to have been to the middle classed/luxury parts of durban/P.E once to laugh off the idea that it's exceptionally dangerous. No where in the world is perfectly safe , but honestly you could only get durban on that technicality. If you're middle classed it's as safe as anywhere.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> There we go....those statistics represent what goes on in the poorest crappiest part of the province. That's a whole other world to what the middle classes live in. That's something that is lost in trabslation of these statistics. The things the poor experience are not the same as the middle classes experience. That's like someone wanting to live in San francisco and showing them the crime rate in Detroit. Keep it real buddy.



You said to present a balanced view didn't you?
I think that covers the whole of Durban doesn't it
I'm not trying to distort ..... those are Police stats aren't they

Oh, and where do you live in SA BR?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> You said to present a balanced view didn't you?
> I think that covers the whole of Durban doesn't it
> I'm not trying to distort ..... those are Police stats aren't they
> 
> Oh, and where do you live in SA BR?


Yes...that's the problem. It covers the whole of durban including the townships. Find me a statistic that shows it's dangerous to live in a middle classed or luxury area. You can't. Here's a clue why ....it's not dangerous at all ! 


Do you think this lady is planning to move into the tin shanty parts of the township ? Of what relevence then is the crime statistics of that part of the country ? You have a very unsophisticated view of South Africa and it's dual nature.....parts first world and parts third world. You can't compare the experience of living in one part with the other. It's not like a family living in umglangha has the same risk of crime than a woman living in a tin hut amongst people struggling to survive. Who do you think you are fooling ? And why are you trying to fool them exactly ? 

Are you honestly trying to convince me...a fellow south african , that there are parts of our country that aren't perfectly safe ? I live in P.e mate ....don't make me laugh. I never worried about crime, or experienced any of it a day in my life. If i live in "new brighton" (our townships area) I'd maybe know something about it. But to show me some statistic from a township that happens to be close to my city and say that represents my way of life is absurd.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Yes...that's the problem. It covers the whole of durban including the townships. Find me a statistic that shows it's dangerous to live in a middle classed or luxury area. You can't. Here's a clue why ....it's not dangerous at all !
> 
> 
> Do you think this lady is planning to move into the tin shanty parts of the township ? Of what relevence then is the crime statistics of that part of the country ? You have a very unsophisticated view of South Africa and it's dual nature.....parts first world and parts third world. You can compare the experience of living in one part with the other.


Oh OK

Again, where do YOU live in SA then?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Oh OK
> 
> Again, where do YOU live in SA then?


See above.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> See above.


You're saying you live in Durban?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> You're saying you live in Durban?


look again.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> look again.


I'm not South African, I dont know what PE is, but I _can_ check your IP addy to see where you are I guess


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I'm not South African, I dont know what PE is, but I _can_ check your IP addy to see where you are I guess


Port Elizabeth. 

So what's your interest in South Africa then ?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Port Elizabeth.
> 
> So what's your interest in South Africa then ?


I'm interested because
(a) I'm a mod on here and I try to understand what I moderate and
(b) There are always such a huge gulf between what people say about SA that I'd live to discover the truth.

I have peoples own accounts of living there, loving the country, but fleeing for their life
I see regular news reports posted about rapes & murders

Then I hear completely the opposite, and I am confused.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

He lives in Port Elizabeth, Stravinsky, a small little backwater town that survives bcause the motor industry established their factories there as they have a small port that makes shipping easier.
You will see that I suggested to Clare that PE is better than Durban and a whole lot better than the rest of SA, for some strange reason.
They actually dont have the same levels of crime as gauteng and the majority of their crime is actually drink and poverty fueled.

However,where Bovine rebel falls down is when he tries to compare PE to Johannesburg/Pretoria/Gauteng.
But I do understand its frustration,


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I'm interested because
> (a) I'm a mod on here and I try to understand what I moderate and
> (b) There are always such a huge gulf between what people say about SA that I'd live to discover the truth.
> 
> ...


I've tried to explain. Once more : 

There are south africans who have an agenda to discredit the country. They have motives , some are victims of crime , some are afrikaaners who feel their rights have been taken away , some fought in the army and feel now that their sacrifice is being discredited , some lost jobs because of affirmitive action...etc etc...

Whatever their motive is they actively misrepresent the reality of South Africa. They also read these crime statistics in the newspaper and it affirmates their bitter and negative views. But when you look critically at these statistics it's plain to see that crime simply does not affect their demographic. Whether they know it or not , they over generalise and distort the reality of what South Africa is into something awful. They make the place sound like a hell hole which is simply isn't . I will repeat my anology of using data gathered in detroit to describe san fransisco. 

I live in south Africa and when i read oms eof the comments these people write it makes me wonder if we even live in the same country myself. "What ? We have to worry about being murdered ? When did this happen ? " their description simply does not correlate with my reality. Maybe they live in some cheap joburg suburb or something...who knows....whatever the case the south africa tey describe is not the one i've experience for my whole life. 

The only way for you to decide is to see for yourself. In my personal experience , there's a 100% record for people leaving South Africa with a MUCH more positive view than they came. Most came expecting a war zone and found it a very peaceful , quiet , safe place. The longer they spend here the more likely they are to see it this way , not less.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> He lives in Port Elizabeth, Stravinsky, a small little backwater town that survives bcause the motor industry established their factories there as they have a small port that makes shipping easier.
> You will see that I suggested to Clare that PE is better than Durban and a whole lot better than the rest of SA, for some strange reason.
> They actually dont have the same levels of crime as gauteng and the majority of their crime is actually drink and poverty fueled.
> 
> ...



1.8 million people in P.E. We have a very huge port currently being built and many other billions of rands worth of new investments being planned. 

I would never compare P.E to joburg...I would not compare any part of the rest of south africa to joburg. Joburg is the detroit of South Africa (except joburg is much richer and more beautful than detroit in fairness ...but compared to the rest of S.a it's a dump with high crime). I would say durban is better than P.E by miles by the way and so is capetown and almost anywhere else. P.e is in the eastern cape which is the poorest province. So it's no good pretending it's an exception to the rule. Crime is P.E is low and nothing we worry about beyond the odd car radio stolen. Same for the rest of south africa beyind joburg really.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I was referring to its mindset as being small,it was the most provincial litle place I have ever lived in.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> I was referring to its mindset as being small,it was the most provincial litle place I have ever lived in.


Yes. Very conservative.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

So if someone was relocating to Johannesburg/Pretoria?PWV area, would there be any chance of home invasions or Hi-jackings if they lived in better than cheap suburbs?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> So if someone was relocating to Johannesburg/Pretoria?PWV area, would there be any chance of home invasions or Hi-jackings if they lived in better than cheap suburbs?


In the better suburbs ? Home invasions ? Extremely low chance of that happening. Most people live in complexes or in highly protected fort like houses in Joburg. I've seen a statistic that showed that House breaking is higher in Australia than South Africa, even including Joburg. 

Hijackings ? Sure. More likely , but still there's only an extremely low chance that will happen to you too. 

It's important to stay alert , but mostly it's all fearmongering.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Really? how long have you lived in Jhbg/centurion/Pta?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Really? how long have you lived in Jhbg/centurion/Pta?


My brother did for 5 years. I visited often. I never once worried about crime while there. I'm rational and sane after all. What next ? Worrying about the sky falling on your heads ?

When you're a child i can understand fearing irrational things. But as we age we are supposed to rid ourselves of the boogie monsters under our beds.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Unfortunately, having just found you on the internet, it 'll be a few years before you're actually old enough to make that statement.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Unfortunately, having just found you on the internet, it 'll be a few years before you're actually old enough to make that statement.


If you don't consider me of age , you must be senile.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I said you are a child. and senility is not my problem.
your playing with peoples lives and savings, I dont care,they mean nothing to me,but you definitely have a problem.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> I said you are a child. and senility is not my problem.
> your playing with peoples lives and savings, I dont care,they mean nothing to me,but you definitely have a problem.


I'm 31.

I don't know what happened to you in South Africa or what agenda you have to spread malicious hyperbole , but it's so far from sane to propose that enocuraging people to invest or travel in South Africa is endangering them. 

Demonstrate to me with statistics that someone's life (via being a tourist) or money are at risk being invested in South Africa. You can't , because it's just not true. You're blowing the baseless hot air here , and using nothing but fear mongering to back it up. 

Always convenient to use fear when you can't use logic to win an argument. Fear always wins over reason in the end. That's why so many people like you running around offering up your strange ideas about South Africa. You might be able to fool some people that have never been here , but please don't expect me to fall for it. I live in the damn country and know how bizare your description of it is.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Aaaah yes, you live in the Country, or you live in korea or you can quite get it.
Anyone who criticises the govt is a racist, you see it all as a conspiracy, are you actually seeing someone professionaly?
There is no power crises, there is no crime crises,there is no judicial crises, the ANC, who have a majority sufficient to change the constitution has just passed a bill that says someone can decide what your land is worth and you cant fight it in court, want to restrict Press freedom under the guise of Child porn, and this is all ok??
what are you smoking? are you allowed to smoke at your mental age?


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Aaaah yes, you live in the Country, or you live in korea or you can quite get it.
> Anyone who criticises the govt is a racist, you see it all as a conspiracy, are you actually seeing someone professionaly?
> There is no power crises, there is no crime crises,there is no judicial crises, the ANC, who have a majority sufficient to change the constitution has just passed a bill that says someone can decide what your land is worth and you cant fight it in court, want to restrict Press freedom under the guise of Child porn, and this is all ok??
> what are you smoking? are you allowed to smoke at your mental age?


Stop being such a whinger. If you don't want to live in South Africa then don't. We're better off without you. But please don't run around spreading hyperbole. Yes South Africa has problems , but don't pretend they are worse than they really are to try and validate your decision to leave. You lost the right to moan about South Africa the moment you left. It's not your country anymore , it's ours now ...and we kindly request that you stop spreading malicious lies and exagerattions because you're bitter. 

If I asked you to describe south africa to someone , and asked them to visit here. After their visit do you think they'd agree with you ? Nonsense . They find all your screwball stories about what a war zone it was to be laughable and you know it ! They'd see beautiful beaches ,stay in glorious hotels , each fantastic cheap food and drink good cheap wine , meet wonderful people and see many great sights. 99% of them would want to return , as oposed to 94% of people who visit Australia. 

People have an option , they can either listen to the bitter people like you with their agenda's and hate , or they can listen to the rational people like me. I always find when you're looking for the truth , avoid the people who are highly emotive and have a personal vendeta about an issue. 


Now back on topic...do you suggest Durban is a bad place to live ?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Not at all, if you bothered to read I told the OP that Durban was great but that PE was better.
And That neither place was anything like Johannesburg.
You're not actually tracking very well are you?


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## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> You're saying you live in Durban?


He says he lives in P.E. which I assume is Port Elizabeth.

I was looking at the crime figures yesterday for SA and according to last years figures, there were 100 murders and 50 rapes every single day, and these were the ones that were reported. Does it matter where the crime takes place, the fact is that it does and it would certainly worry me.

Michelle


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Michelle, statistically, you can prove anything.
19,000 murders a year as a percentage of the total population is minuscule, its .04%o the population get murdered every year. 

in real terms, 99.96% of the population dont get murdered every year.

and yes,,most of those murders happen on a weekend between drunken people who live in abject misery and squalor.
No Arguement.

and most of those murders do not get solved, investigated, or taken any further.
even when the perpetrator is known to the victim.

and a very small percentage of that crime happens to white people, as most whites(and the new Black class) have things that are worth stealing.
but statistics dont matter when you are the statistic, at that moment.

And that is where I disagree with this poster.
The population of SA is 48 milion, 18,000 odd is a small statistic.

the people who are asking questions on here are going to be living in areas of high interest to gangs, they are going to be buying new TV's,New cars,, conspicuous consumption.

I dont care wether they move to SA or not, iro my investments I hope they do, I hope they sort SA out, because the flippant," yes there are problems "nowhere near covers it.

My conscience asks , that they make a rational informed decision.

I'm a 57 year old succesful businessman as well as a succesful human being.
I have a 9 year old daughter.
You can spend 54 years in SA without a problem, but if a problem finds you, its usually a biggie.

Here is this poster, says he is 31, talks about SA while he lives in Korea,

says the exact opposite of every media available to the internet in and out of SA.

And then tries to attract people to his blog site(link removed by moderator) which shows murdered black people??

Yes, I am harsh about SA, google my name and you will find the same consistent statements.
I love the Country, I love the people, it is heart achingly beautiful.
I hate the waste occassioned by the Multi cultural Political party called the ANC for whom I voted.

I pray that it succeeds..

but I hate Zealots, wether they be right wing or this kid.
especially when they lie.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

MichelleAlison said:


> He says he lives in P.E. which I assume is Port Elizabeth.
> 
> I was looking at the crime figures yesterday for SA and according to last years figures, there were 100 murders and 50 rapes every single day, and these were the ones that were reported. Does it matter where the crime takes place, the fact is that it does and it would certainly worry me.
> 
> Michelle



Michelle you're crap at maths. There were 50 murders and 25 rapes everyday. You don't just double it to make yourself feel better. 

It certainly does matter where it takes place. You can easily avoid it by not hanging out in certain areas and certain times of the day. Easy. Anyway don't bother then. South Africa is fine with or without you. 

One question....would you ever holiday in Jamaica ? 

Because the crime rate is 15% higher there.


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Michelle, statistically, you can prove anything.
> 19,000 murders a year as a percentage of the total population is minuscule, its .04%o the population get murdered every year.
> 
> in real terms, 99.96% of the population dont get murdered every year.
> ...


1)Just a few points. I don't live in Korea. I live 80% of my life in Port Elizabeth South Africa and 20% of it here so my gf can see her family. I don't like to drag my personal life on the internet so respect my boundaries please.

2) My blog has pictures of dead iraqi's (i'm anti the iraqi war).

3) I have no made on single lie. If you claim I have then please demonstrate. 

4) Of course I'm saying the opposite of the media. The media is full of neurotic sensationalism and hyperbole. That's the freaking point.

You talk about making a rational decision. That's exactly what I want people to make. Again I ask ...would you put the same effort into stopping people going to holiday in Jamaica ? It's got a higher crime rate than South Africa. How in any way can you justidy the incredibly fearmongering being passed around here as rational ?

and yes 0.040 % is the murder rate (but far less if you're in the middle classes). Washington DC ? 0.036 . I guarantee you can go on a forum regarding washington dc and not see a bunch of people talking about "genocide" ...it's unique to us and were shooting ourselves in the foot by not stopping to see things rationallt......please admit that far too many south africans really do overstate the issue a million times over. 

All this tlak about hijackings and break in murders and the like...of those 18 000 murders only 500 were from this form of crime. The gross majority of murders is black on black drunken knife fighting and the likes. Nothing white or middle classed people will ever encounter. 

I say it again in the strongest possible form ..if you are in the middle classes then South Africa is as safe as anywhere else.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"Again I ask ...would you put the same effort into stopping people going to holiday in Jamaica ? It's got a higher crime rate than South Africa. How in any way can you justidy the incredibly fearmongering being passed around here as rational ?"

If I was Jamaican and they wished to move to Jamaica, yes.
I'm South African and they are asking about SA.


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## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Michelle you're crap at maths. There were 50 murders and 25 rapes everyday. You don't just double it to make yourself feel better.
> 
> It certainly does matter where it takes place. You can easily avoid it by not hanging out in certain areas and certain times of the day. Easy. Anyway don't bother then. South Africa is fine with or without you.
> 
> ...


I should have used a calculator yesterday as you are right, my maths is terrible. Anyway, here is the link I found regarding last year's crime stats.

:. Institute for Security Studies - Institut d'Études de Sécurité .:

Michelle


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

*HI*



Daxk said:


> "Again I ask ...would you put the same effort into stopping people going to holiday in Jamaica ? It's got a higher crime rate than South Africa. How in any way can you justidy the incredibly fearmongering being passed around here as rational ?"
> 
> If I was Jamaican and they wished to move to Jamaica, yes.
> I'm South African and they are asking about SA.


Thanks for all the comments made about SA and i felt there was good and bad and a lot of people putting the place down.

My husband flew out yesterday and has arrived this morning in johannasburg his head office is in woodmead and they have put him up in a hotel in sandton temp untill they can show him some accomadation.

Please could you tell me what these areas are like as my husband feels a little unsure as its all new to him.

All he can say at the moment is that what bits he has seen did not look bad and the hype that is said about the airport did not seem to be the case.

Many Thanks

Clare


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Woodmead,Rivonia, Sandton.Paulshof and Fourways go through Stages,
Avoid Bucleuch,Midrand ,Kyalami, the traffic over the Jukskei is enough to kill you 
major safety check is how many exits and entrances a Suburb has,how close it is to an escape route such as a Highway.
tell your husband to sign up to EBlockwatch, its a good idea and very cheap,that has a searchable incident map that is far more accurate than anything any of us could ever tell you about an area.
In addittion, your Husbands company should have a risk assesment specialist anyway to advise him and you as well as brief you.


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

daxk

Could you tell me how much tax you have to pay on wages in south africa

if poss


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

www.sars.gov.za


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"All he can say at the moment is that what bits he has seen did not look bad and the hype that is said about the airport did not seem to be the case.

Many Thanks

Clare"

News - South Africa: Lost and stolen luggage costs SAA 'heaps'

Clare, the luggage theft is mostly for luggage Leaving.
Gangs do target people arriving and there have been instances of Armed robberies happening when people arrive at their destinations.
Please dont try and minimise the risks.


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## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Hi there. I'm a single white female currently living in ort Elizabeth. I have lived in various cities in South Africa - I'm proud to say that I know my Country. Of all the cities in S.A i would choose Durban. Weather can vary a lot in this country. I prefer the following situations: humid rather than dry, laid back rather than rushed, friendly rather than stereotyped, constant weather rather than temperamental weather, safe surroundings rather than gangster town, scenary rather than industry. Durban has all this and then some. You are more likely to get a better salary package living in Durban. Durban has plenty to offer. I fell in love with Durban, but then i am a beach babe that needs to be entertained. Port Elizabeth is incredibly windy and boring. I am leaving to go to Dubai as i have found myself at the tender age of 32 completely bored with P.E. It is beautiful in many ways but lets not forget that it is a city built on Industry and this is very evident when arriving in P.E. It is not tourist based so lacks many of the touris type attractions. I can count the number of good clubs to got to on one hand. If you are wanting a really easy life with driving distances of about 20min to any destination and can put up with gale force winds and not many good restaurants with very little entertainment available but a good safe city then P.E. is for you. HOWEVER - Durban is safe, beautiful, has plenty of entertainment and good restaurants, offers better job opportunities by far with much better packages. Is very relaxed and enviting. The reason I'm not there is because Dubai appeals to me more... go for it, you will love it.
Prices per month: 
Private Schooling: R 50000 per child per year - depending on schooling
Petrol: R 20000
vehicle repayments: R 3000 e.g. VW polo
rent: R 10000 for a house in a good area like Kloof
Food R 4500 for family
entertainment: 5000 for family
any other questions that i can answer for you just let me know - always glad to assist - by the way - crime is not as bad as you think - allis dependant in what area you will be residing.


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## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Sorry - correction on the price of private schooling - it is actually per child per term, there a 4 terms in the year. This is for a medium classed Private school based on the private school in Grahamstown "St. Andrews College" and this is jus tthe tuition fee. School uniform can be quite expensive. I have 2 baby brothers, one in first year University at Rhodes University (excellent univesity) and one in Public Schooling grade 10. I also have another brother living in Cape Town and Family up in Johannesburg. I would like to clarify about the crime in S.A. Two family members of mine have been hijacked (car theft while in the car) at gun point. BUT they were also doing the stupid thing of driving in the poor areas otherwise known as the townships doing their good to society and helping at AIDS havens which you will not be doing. My family in Cape Town have never experienced crime and neither have I. Stay in the middle class areas and you will be fine at the same time do not invite situations i.e. keep your car doors locked and handbag next you and NOT on the passenger seat, watch your back when drawing money from an ATM basically the same as anywhere in the world.


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

Daxk

Im not saying the airport is safe or not high risk all im saying is what my husband had to say and for all the storys he had heard he was expecting it to be really bad,

BUT he found it to be on par with Egypt's airport in fact he thorought it was much better.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Apogies Clare, Misunderstood you


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks chantle

It is still very early days regards me and the children moving over to SA but i will say i am looking forward to seeing the country even with all the bad that has been said.

I think you take on board what people say and view it with your own eyes and then make your mind up.

My Husband has been there a week today in Sandton temp accomadation and he said that hes been going out every night with 3 other blokes for meals and beer and is enjoying it so far.

He has said he has seen some rough places and he dose not like to see the children on the street he finds that hard as we have young children our self but at the moment he feels its not to bad and keeps to his safty notes that was advised

Clare


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

No Problem

You know more than i do i only get to hear what people write on this page and what my husband can tell me from his own experiance.

Clare


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## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Hey Clare - your husband is staying in one of the most upmarket areas of Johannesburg. Very safe, lots of entertainment, beautiful, expensive in Rand value. You will love Sandton, i don't know of anyone that does not. Check your do's and don'ts list and you will be fine but you will have to become accustomed to always been vigilant and aware. One thing you must do is stick within your community and don't go for Sunday drives into areas that you don't know. You might get a shock at all the security like fences, electronic gates, guards etc. they are there to prevent crime in your area and I can say that you must embrace these measures as it will add to our peace of mind as they are prevetative measures more than anything else. Also make sure that your property security gate has closed before you unlock your car doors and get out. These are little things that make a huge difference. It's good to hear that your hubby has been given a list of precautions, they certainly will assist with your safety.


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## Juliet (Jul 22, 2008)

*Help*

Chantal,

I have been reading your viewpoint on S.A in several different areas. You seem well versed in this particular area. As a single woman it sounds like you prefer Durban...What about for those of us with children? I have twin 13 year olds and am looking for the "safest" area we can live in. My plan would be to send my children to a private school.
I will admit my PURE IGNORANCE when it comes to life in S.A. My husband will be working in Cape Town, so we don't want to be to far away; however I don't like the idea of living IN Cape Town. 

I am trying to compare places and figure out what the best place for us would be.

Thanks,
Juliet


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## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Hi Juliet - I love Durban more because of the weather more than anything else although it is quite safer than Cape Town. You would hat eliving in Durban if your husband was living in Cape Town. The distance is too far. Durban is about 19 hours drive away from Cape Town and about 2.5 hours flight between the two. I would seriously consider you stay in Cape Town where you will have your support system of your husband. Cape Town is much prettier than Durban and has a lot more to offer with over the top entertainment and the best of the best that S.A. has to offer. You have the wine lands, the mountain, the beach, the malls, the restaurant, the harbour that is so beautifully done etc. all you have to do is google Cape town and you will see that it has an entire library more than the other cities, apart fom Johannesburg (which is out of the question due to the crime rate).
Understand that I love the beach and warm weather. Cape Town is rainy in winter and icy cold. In summer the weather is great but the sea is so cold that you can't even swim in it - well you could but not comfortably.
Cape Town has plenty of great private schools but be prepared to pay BIG. The traffic is not as bad as Johannesburg and the roads are clearly marked and in my opinion easier to find your way around. Cape Town has great shopping where you can even get name brand at really great discounted prices. Do you have any idea where your husband will be working? Newlands is a lovely area but does get more rain than the rest of the area. If you can let me know where abouts he is going to be working then i can give you ideas for areas to live, shopping, schools ect.
Cape Town is a very young and happening city and progressing at an alarming rate. Please don't do what everyone else does and read up on statistics. Read up on the statistics of the AREA and not city in which you plan to reside as there is a big difference between the two. Everyone loves Cape Town there is not much to not like. As far as crime goes - it's all dependant on your movements in the city. Here a couple of pointers but please look into the do's and don'ts of safety in S.A. and you will be fine.
1 don't leave your hand bag unattended - they steal them to get your visas and passports more than anyhting else so when your'e in a restaurant put your hand bag on the floor by your chair but put the leg of your chair through the arm of your handbag. 2 always make sure your car doors are locked and windows are up at traffic light intersections. 3 Be aware when drawing money from an ATM and don't let ANYONE assist you if you seem to be having a problem, make sure that you in turn do not help anyone else as they themselves are likely to be part of a scam. 4 Lock your house up when leaving and make sure that your doors are also locked after entering. 5 always park where there are plenty of other cars and try stay in areas that are busy and well lit at night time. 6 stay away from the surrounding areas of the locations or townships (where the poorest of the poor live). Never walk around with plenty of cash in your handbag. 7 Cell phone theft is on the increase and people are being mugged for them so only use your phone indoors or in busy areas. Cape Town has many alluring things in bad areas, do not go there, rather stick to your community no matter what. 8 don't go to the beach alone or at night. 9 don't take walks in the evening, rather wait for the weekend. There are plenty of great gyms should you want a good work out. I have family all over S.A that I visit regularly. We do live the high life and are able to pay for security and nothing has happened to any of my 42family members but then again we are fortunate to live the high life and reside in expensive areas where money buys safety. The other aspetc is that we have grown up here and the rules of safety are embedded in us especially as we have grown WITH the transition of our country. If you are vigilant to your surroundings and aware of the "could happen" then you will be fine. It's not as bad as everyone makes out, it all depends on the area you're in. Do I think you will love Cape Town? Absolutley. Do I think you should live in Durban thousands of km away from you hubby? No. Will you be bored and lonely in Cape Town? No. Will your children possibly have better schooling and more job opportunities in Cape Town? for sure. If all goes according to plan for you, will you want to return to your home country? I don't think so.
But remember this is only my opinion. Should you make the leap to this breathtakingly beautiful city? Absolutley - go out there, make it work, do your homework, remeber your safety tips, should you need more then let me know.


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## Juliet (Jul 22, 2008)

Chantal said:


> Hi Juliet - I love Durban more because of the weather more than anything else although it is quite safer than Cape Town. You would hat eliving in Durban if your husband was living in Cape Town. The distance is too far. Durban is about 19 hours drive away from Cape Town and about 2.5 hours flight between the two.
> I would seriously consider you stay in Cape Town where you will have your support system of your husband.
> SHOWS YOU HOW MUCH I KNOW! I WAS UNAWARE OF WHERE EXACTLY DURBAN WAS LOCATED!
> 
> ...


~CHANTAL-
Thank you for all your advice. I am guessing that there are little communities within Cape Town that are better areas to reside in then others. Could you name these for me please.?!
As I mentioned in one of my other posts, I am concerned about how difficult it will be for me to find employment. I am a licensed Massage Therapist in the States, any good thoughts on this one?

The possibility of such a wonderful diverse cultural experience for my children is incredible. I just want to make sure we are safe.

Juliet


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## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Hey Juliet - the top places in Cape Town are: Newlands, Green Point, Sea Point and Camps Bay, those are the TOP there are other of plenty safe areas as well. You are very blessed that your major expences are met. You shouldn't struggle to get a job in that criteria, Cape Town is filled with Spas, Health resorts, Salons, Sports Centres and Therapist institutes. It's always good to read the news paper and to sign up with a recruitment agency as well as look for posts on line. Once you are in S.A it is generally easy to get a job, about a month or two wait if you are actively looking. Otherwise you can always do massage from home and just advertise. Bring your certificate none the less. It sounds like your hubby has got a really good job where his company will look after him well. South Africans are very hospitable (not quite sure about the neighbours) but generally in the work place they look after each other and I have a feeling your husbands co-workers will make sure that you have everything you need including VIP advise. Your children might have a struggle adjusting, it happens to every child changing schools but in private schools they are made to feel part of a family and made to feel like they are the cream of the crop of what the country has. I know, I was fortunate to go to one, you can't even begin to compare the private schools to the public schools, I know because I aslo went to a public school. You want to know which end is up? Taking advise from someone who has nothing to gain, is not bitter with the state of the country, who loves the country crime and all, who does not base life on statistics but rather on experience. who knows the country well enough to give correct advise. I think there are plenty of people who make other peoples' horror story theirs and the story gets bigger & bigger like the guy who caught a fish that was this big and each time he tells the story it gets bigger. Don't get me wrong crime is plenty here but stay aware, eventualy it becomes second nature and not too long either - after a month you'll find you are into the swing of awareness and not even aware of your awareness anymore.(did you get that? nearly confused myself there for a minute!)  Another thing, don't wear flashy expensive jewelery, that's just asking for trouble. You're going to love it, I am so excited for your family.


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## Juliet (Jul 22, 2008)

Chantal said:


> Hey Juliet - the top places in Cape Town are: Newlands, Green Point, Sea Point and Camps Bay, those are the TOP there are other of plenty safe areas as well. You are very blessed that your major expences are met.
> ~ THESE AREAS LOOK GREAT, BUT I THINK A BIT PRICEY!! WHERE ELSE WOULD SOMEONE ADVISE THAT IS IN A SAFE NEIGHBORHOOD?~
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the continued info. Much appreciated.
Juliet


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## Juliet (Jul 22, 2008)

*Somerset West*

Does anyone know anything about Somerset West as a place to move to? Safety, etc...??

Thank you,
Juliet


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

Going out to joburg on friday staying at sandton can any one tell me if there are any near safari's that we could visit, or any other places worth visiting on my short stay in between house hunting


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## CarCar (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Clarewood

I hope you are having a wonderful time in SA - we are going for 2 weeks end of the month. 

As I'm sure you have noticed already - in SA everything is political even those things that are not. There was a time when I found it interesting but now I find it tedious.

I lived in Durban for 15 years, am married to a South African and have 3 children.

We lived in Umhlanga which is considered to be a nice area. Actually we lived on a golf course called Mount Edgecombe. It was a wonderful and safe lifestyle. There are boom gates, walls and electrical wires around the estate. The domestic staff have to wear ID cards when they enter and are not allowed to walk around the estate. There are also security vehicles patrolling the estate. Yes, Perfectly safe.

Our children went to Crawford College La Lucia - a beautiful private school with wonderful facilities. Many of my friends have moved their children from Crawford La Lucia to Crawford North Coast because they say that the new North Coast one has smaller classes. Prices must have increased during the past two years but they are not expensive compared to the UK.

If you would like more info contact 
VANESSA MORGAN
ADMINISTRATOR
Crawford Pre-Primary School
La Lucia
Tel: 031-562 0057
Fax: 031-562 0059
email: [email protected]
website: Crawford

There is also Durban girls College (which might be cohead by now) La Lucia which is closer to Prestondale (a lovely little residential area).

As mentioned Michael House is excellent and is much older than Crawford. I felt it to be a little too traditional for my taste. This is of course a personal matter.

The state schools have been under some pressure lately but La Lucia primary (I think that's the name - is semi private) has always had a good rep. There's also Northlands in Durban North, Danville girls - can't remember them too well but my ex knows all of them.

I used to shop at La Lucia Mall and Gateway shopping centre. There are car guards and they are very helpful so there are not to many hijackings in those car parks. Woolworths is like Mark's & Spencer and Pick & pay is like your woolworths in the UK.

Umhlanga beach and promenade is stunning and recently expanded. My ex still lives there-he has a beach front home and the boys are currently with him for the summer holidays. My ex keeps us updated on all the happenings in Umhlanga. Apparently lots of big new buildings and not quite the little seaside resort it used to be.

My eldest son was born at Umhlanga Hospital which is a private hospital which looks much like a hotel inside. Very expensive on SA terms and they refuse to treat you unless you give credit card details or medical aid details. I know this because when my mother had a heart attack (no medical aid) they refused to treat her until I paid R5000 deposit and 24 hours later another R20 000. After 5 days in hospital we had paid R50 000 and my mother had to pay additional R17 000 in doctors bills. A small price to pay for my mother's life - no regrets.

But the medical treatment is fantastic and as long as you pay they are happy to save your life.

There's an area called Sunningdale (yes, I have lived there) which is close to La Lucia - there has always been a problem with security there. Last year a young pregnant woman (7 months) was hijacked and shot in her driveway coming home in the evening. Yes, I knew the family.

Crime happens, there is a reason for all those high walls and security guards so accept it as a part of your life. 

I have also lived in Berea, Morningside and North Beach (which is closer to Durban central). We have plenty friends in Ballito which is booming at the mo.

If you want any more info or some people to contact to ask questions about Durban - just let me know. Have a close friend who lived closer to the Bluff side - they are now in Ireland but always helpful.

I'm afraid I have never lived in any other parts of SA.

Oh and if you want a good dentist try Brian Busschau in Granada Centre - Umhlanga. He is excellent!


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## clarewood931 (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi to all

Just come back from sa johannesburg sandton and had a really nice time but am really confused from all the storys.

we looked at some houses in wendywood, morningside, could any one tell me what these areas are like please as we dont know or what other areas might be better and also what the best private schools would be in the area to send the children to.


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## Mummy3 (Sep 7, 2008)

I used to live in a suburb of Durban (about 10-15 mins by car). It's beautiful with a beautiful beach. The thing I'd warn you about though, is be very wary and if you take something nice like a camcorder or camera or even carrying a handbag, be careful. I don't mean to scare you, but you've got to keep an eye out anyway. When I returned from the UK to Durban for a short holiday, it made me realise how unsafe I did feel back there. It's such a shame as it's such a beautiful country


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## Kircay (Jun 29, 2007)

Hi there, 
I live in South Africa and its scary even if you live in a good/elite or middle class suburb you ARE at risk. pls don't let people tell you differently. Hi jacking is a huge worry and its the violent crime that is so scary. Robbery and petty theft without harm is still acceptable but its the hatred and the violence here that is unacceptable. If you have small children I suggest you stay away. This is a beautiful country with alot of good people but the criminals make it a bad choice to move to. Take it from a mom with 2 young daughters - the money is not worth it.....


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

bovinerebel said:


> There we go....those statistics represent what goes on in the poorest crappiest part of the province. That's a whole other world to what the middle classes live in. That's something that is lost in trabslation of these statistics. The things the poor experience are not the same as the middle classes experience. That's like someone wanting to live in San francisco and showing them the crime rate in Detroit. Keep it real buddy.
> 
> I mean go to the townships in Rio, Brazil and you'll find extremely high crime statistics ...but would you let that convince you that the suburbs of Rio were a dangerous place to live ?
> 
> ...


I am sorry to say you are full of crap. I can not believe that tyou would be telling such crap to an unsuspected person. I came from, middle class/luxury Durban, and let me tell you that your little black friends prefer tha, because there more things to steal, and people like you tell people this crap so they think they are safe. I can not even believe people concider moving there. I live in Aus and was the best move ever. I you er reading this and concider moving to SA go and look at this website and then decide. If you still want to go I feel sorry for your family.

Die nuwe Suid-Afrika: It's not crime, its war


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Kircay said:


> Hi there,
> I live in South Africa and its scary even if you live in a good/elite or middle class suburb you ARE at risk. pls don't let people tell you differently. Hi jacking is a huge worry and its the violent crime that is so scary. Robbery and petty theft without harm is still acceptable but its the hatred and the violence here that is unacceptable. If you have small children I suggest you stay away. This is a beautiful country with alot of good people but the criminals make it a bad choice to move to. Take it from a mom with 2 young daughters - the money is not worth it.....[/QUOTE
> 
> KirCay i agree with you 100% an I cannot believe people sitting
> somewhere else wuld tell someone that it is good and nice with a little nit of crime. If someone reads this and do not do more research and really think what they are doing I really feel sorry for them.


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## Slim (Dec 30, 2008)

*A:* One of my coleages moved to Aus four years ago. His sister was abducted from her home in Roodepoort (considered a safe suburb) and her body was found mutilated in Soweto. Multiple stabwounds and repeatedly raped. 

*B:* My Cousin was robbed of his Cellphone, and laptop as he arrived at his offices in Houghton (considered safe) about a year ago. He co-operated and was rewarded by a well placed gunshot to the abdomen. He was in hospital for three weeks.

*C:* Petit, Benoni (near where I myself live). A block containing 14 properties experienced 57 break-ins in a month. Verifiable

*D:* I have been a victim of a attempted hi-jacking myself. I always go around armed. I shot the attacker (I am well trained in the use of arms and the tables may very well have been turned if I was not) and was rewarded with a murder charge and a helluva laywers bill.

*E:* I have been witness to a hijacked car crashing through a restaurant window oppsite my offices. A firefight ensued betwen the hijackers and the police.

*F:* Within walking distance of our offices we have four banks. In the eight years I have been here the FNB has been robbed three times. The ABSA bank has been robbed twice. The Standard bank has been robbed twice. The Nedbank has been here for two years and has been robbed once. The Nandos has been robbed twice. The BP garage has been robbed twice. The Engen garage has been robbed once. St Andrews Private school experienced a robbery of a few students once as the fence was scaled and pupils held up in their classroom. This is a very upmarket pvt school. Fortuantely, noby got killed in any of these incidences, but one lady was hospitalised after she was severely asaulted during one of the roberies.

*G:* My boss got out of his car at a clients offices and walked straight into the barrel of a gun. The thug demanded his phone and laptop. This was in broad daylight in full view of other people. The police refused to open a docket unless he could give them the name of a suspect (apparently this happens more and more at police stations).

_The above is what I have experienced personally or by someone I know. This is not something you would read on News24 or other news sites._

I love this country and promised myself I would never budge. However, as crime is creeping closer and closer to home, and becoming more and more violent, I fear it is time to pack up and leave. It is also becoming evident that crime against white people is is not about robbery anymore. A police officer friend told me that the brutality of the attacks he has investigated is shocking and that very little is stolen in these attacks. The attackers will sometimes spend three or more hours toruring their victims and 10 minutes stealing a VCR and a cellphone. And very often the toruring will continue until the victim is dead. They torture by dripping burning plastic onto the victims bodies. Burning the victims with hot irons, anal penetration with foreign objects, male rape (yes - male rape), minors (even of pre-school age) tortured to death in full view of their parents. Blacks talk about inflicting "Slow puncture" on whites. That, if you have not gathered, is infecting the white people with the HIV virus. Hence the rape and male rape of the white populace.

Up to a year ago I would have agreed that it is not really that bad and that crime is confined to isolated pockets of the country, but lately violence is getting out of control and government is putting no real effort into curbing violence.

Ask any South African if he/she knows anybody who has been a victim of crime, or whether he/she has been a victim of crime himself and you would be surprised at the absence of "No" answers. It is not a matter of "If", but a question of "When". 

It is with a very heavy heart that I have taken the decision to make preperations to leave the country of my birth, and not a decision taken lightly. 

If pointing out the race of the perps and the victims is considered racist (definitely considered racist in sunny SA), then I suppose I am a racist. But I would rather consider myself a realist. 

There is situations where you can experience South Africa in relative safety, but your safety will never be guaranteed. As a holiday maker part of an tour group with an experienced tour operator, you would be relatively safe. On your own....eish. I shudder when I see tourists walking with a map in hand around Parktown in Jhb. They are soooo obviously tourists it stands out like a sore thumb. And they are just asking to be mugged.

South Africa is a beautiful country and if you can, to be experienced at least once, but please take the necisary precautions and find out as much as you can about your planned destination. Follow the advice you are given and never wander off into areas not confirmed safe on your own. A tourist was shot at Gods Window in Mpumulanga about a month ago. Another British tourist was shot and killed in Pilgrims Rest about a year ago by one of the hotel employees. Do your homework, find out as much as you can about the area you are going to and take all the advice you get to heart and you should be fine. But I would definitely not recomend moving to SA on a permanent basis.

A lot of people will focus on the positives of SA, and a lot will focus on the negatives of SA. I try to be realistic and just share my views and experiences here. I try to rtmain positive as South Africa will have a lot going for her if her people changed their attitudes and worked together instead of hating each other. But we still have a long way to go before that point wil even become a true vision.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Wow Slim ..... no wonder you want out!


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## Kleynhansdownunder (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi,

I am from Durban and must say that I don't agree that it's as safe as everywhere. Middle class neighbourhoods are a target in the sense that thieves are attracted to these areas to steal from homes and hijack cars. I lived in a middle class neighbourhood and was robbed many times. I still have family who live in Durban and recently my sister was threatened at knife point in her own home whilst 8 months pregnant and with her three year old daughter at her side. She lives in an affluent area in Hillcrest.

I agree that nowhere is 100% safe but I have now lived in London for the past 6 years and I have never experienced anything like I did in South Africa. I love the country and would love to return but I cannot as I do not believe it is the best place to raise my children, it is not safe enough. I am certainly not one to spread horror stories about South Africa but I do believe that you are safer there if you are more aware of the risks. It is definately not safe to venture outside your home at night. 

Durban is a lovely place and the people are generally very friendly. However, it's not as safe as anywhere, you need to be crime wise to protect yourself and your family.

Incidentally, my sister has now reluctantly decided to leave.

All the best with your decision!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Durban is no longer a lovely place.


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Slim said:


> *A:* One of my coleages moved to Aus four years ago. His sister was abducted from her home in Roodepoort (considered a safe suburb) and her body was found mutilated in Soweto. Multiple stabwounds and repeatedly raped.
> 
> *B:* My Cousin was robbed of his Cellphone, and laptop as he arrived at his offices in Houghton (considered safe) about a year ago. He co-operated and was rewarded by a well placed gunshot to the abdomen. He was in hospital for three weeks.
> 
> ...


Slim

A very good, true and also sad letter. I dont think anyone can argue with anything you have written. I know there are these staunch supporters that believe in South Africa, but when the crimes turn from crime to "hatred crimes, Black on white" that becomes a whole new ballgame. I would not recommend South Africa to anyone, because I dont want their rape or death on my conscious.\
And this is coming from an "Afrikaner boy born and raised in Kwa-Zulu Natal - Zululand of all places" and to be honest, with no disrespect to anyone else, " but almost want to say who loved South Africa more than the Afrikaner" but one has to wake up and smell the foul coffee these days. I just do not believe that there is an "Utopia" like SA used to be when I was a little kid. Australia is nice and we have made it our new home, but country wise, without all the black violence, it has no patch on SA, but unfortunately that SA will never return. Even if ewveryone was prepared to fight against the massses, you still have about another billion up North and I do not think the world will prob ever allow another "white South Africa" no matter what the circumstances are. Personally I just cannot see white and black living in harmony in SA in my or my children's lifetime, so therefore my new home is Australia( even though we lost the cricket) and would not recommend anyone to even visit SA if they care about their lives. Sad but I think true.


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

I have only gone through all the posts now, and I am stunned to read that some of you seem to think that there is nothing wrong in SA. Saying things like the middleclass neighbourhoods as safe as anywhere. Wait a moment the last ime I checked my windows and dors this Morning 5 am when I left was there was no burglar guards, safety doors etc, and while it is dark when I leave for work, while my wife is still sleeping I can give her a kiss on her cheeck and head off to work without one worry in the world. I honestly reckon some of you are so full of it, because if none if you can do what I just described or play with your kids without any fear of violence, then you are living as all of us ex-SA know you are, but then telling people that it is all OK. Do you hate other people that you want to convince them to come over there and be subjected to violence. Any of you that say that it is as safe as it is in here as AUS. You are crap and have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. But as I have had this same argument with some real Afrikaners elsewhere, who believes that GOD only looks after the Afrikaner in SA and not after anyone of us in a different country you guys can obviously not be debated with. If you want to stay there, thats your problem, but please do not try to convince people they should come there if they could have rather come to AUS and NZ had they known the truth and people like you did not tell them all this crap. Are you guys just sour because you are to lazy, or backboneless to try to leave the country to make a new start somewhere else. Everyone thinks we are cowards, but I tell you what it takes more guts, to leave everything you have known behind, sell everything, and come over to a different country, not knowing anyone with the clothes on your back and then become successfull. But you would never know that, because you love living in that craphole - Thats right thats what I called it because that is what it is now.( In my heart and mind I remember SA for what t was, not what it is now - A filth ridden African 3rd world craphole - Harsh but do you really want to argue - yes there are beautiful parts, but how many of you ever visit those parts.( like the lions -yes but how many of you regurlary go and see the lions) The parts that you all stay in is full of garbage, violence and fear. Good luck to you if that is how you want to spend your life. No thank you, I enjoy taking my kids to the beach on the weekend, getting home and playing with them on the front lawn, going for a walk and enjoying my BRAAIVLEIS in my yard without wondering who is coming to rape my wife and kids. Can any of you honestly say the same - Didnt think so


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