# Bullfighting in Catalonia



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

So, bull fighting has finally been banned in Catalonia, but don't hold your breath. It doesn't come into force until Jan 2012!
On the radio this morning the discussion was around was this vote entirely political or were feelings the bulls actually involved at any point. The idea is that those who voted against bull fighting are the nationalists, who want to do away with symbols of Spain. Those who voted for bull fighting want to remain part of Spain ????


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

Applause for Catalunya for finally banning this barbarism!!!  I'm glad that we're the first and hopefully this will be a chain reaction causing other parts of Spain to also outlaw it.

I doubt political opinions have much to do with the voting, maybe for some, but regardless what the motives are I'm glad it's outlawed. Glad to such an extent that I couldn't care less about the motivations for voting to outlaw it. Hopefully they will let the "event" die a slow death, which means: not rapidly organising some more bull fights before the law becomes effective. I hope that as from now bull fighting is a thing of the past here in Catalunya rather than rapidly stab some more poor animals before the law becomes effective.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I remember many years ago, there was a plaza de toros on the Island of Gran Canaria. 

However it closed due to disinterest by the local populace and non interested tourists.

We in the Canary Islands are still part of Spain without bull fighting and there are those here who also seek independence


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, bull fighting has finally been banned in Catalonia, but don't hold your breath. It doesn't come into force until Jan 2012!
> On the radio this morning the discussion was around was this vote entirely political or were feelings the bulls actually involved at any point. The idea is that those who voted against bull fighting are the nationalists, who want to do away with symbols of Spain. Those who voted for bull fighting want to remain part of Spain ????


Glad to see they are fighting the war with symbolism and not bombs  

To be fair the delay is necessary while the industry dismantles itself and finds other uses for its resources. It will be interesting to see what ideas are offered for using the bull rings. Will they be thrown to the developers or will we see open air theatre, ice rinks, ferret racing


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Glad to see they are fighting the war with symbolism and not bombs
> 
> To be fair the delay is necessary while the industry dismantles itself and finds other uses for its resources. It will be interesting to see what ideas are offered for using the bull rings. Will they be thrown to the developers or will we see open air theatre, ice rinks, ferret racing



Car boots,Bingo and Sunday markets more like.

Interesting to note that bullfighting has already been banned several times in Spain during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as being too barbaric,but always came back again and was actively encouraged by Franco.

A few facts about bullfighting - iberianature - Spanish history and culture -


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

Franco wanted to promote it as he saw it as a Spanish cultural symbol, thus a good way to force Spanish culture down the throats of people in "separatist" regions such as Catalunya.

Not too sure how big the arenas are in general, here in BCN I only saw one and it was quite impressively big. (note: seen from the outside only) I can imagine there's plenty of options to use it for: open air concerts, other sports (= non cruel ones, such as athletics, racing, ...) ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I read/heard somewhere that there has been only one bullfight in Catalunya in the past decade. So this ban seems more symbolic.
But I agree with Gerrit - it's a barbaric practice and should be banned everywhere it still is seen as 'entertainment'.
Fatal for the bull, dangerous for humans and degrading to spectators.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I read/heard somewhere that there has been only one bullfight in Catalunya in the past decade. So this ban seems more symbolic.
> But I agree with Gerrit - it's a barbaric practice and should be banned everywhere it still is seen as 'entertainment'.
> Fatal for the bull, dangerous for humans and degrading to spectators.


No, there were I believe 20 in the Monumental in Barcelona in 2009 alone! Then there are all the little town celebrations, so bullfighting, while not being the mainstream choice of entertainment, is alive and kicking in Catalonia


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

In Barcelona itself only one arena still allows it, so there can't be that many here. Of course even one is too many, and Catalonia is bigger than Barcelona alone... I wonder why they vote a law and make it become effective only with a large delay? I'm sure it cannot take that long to give a new function to those arenas, they're perfectly suitable for concerts, sporting events, ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gerrit said:


> In Barcelona itself only one arena still allows it, so there can't be that many here. Of course even one is too many, and Catalonia is bigger than Barcelona alone... I wonder why they vote a law and make it become effective only with a large delay? I'm sure it cannot take that long to give a new function to those arenas, they're perfectly suitable for concerts, sporting events, ...


Sorry, 20 in Catalonia, see here
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/2010072...das-toros-novilladas-2009-1-festejos-toda-esp
Not a lot, especially when compared with the 300+ of Andalucia and 200+ in Madrid


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

gerrit said:


> In Barcelona itself only one arena still allows it, so there can't be that many here. Of course even one is too many, and Catalonia is bigger than Barcelona alone... I wonder why they vote a law and make it become effective only with a large delay? I'm sure it cannot take that long to give a new function to those arenas, they're perfectly suitable for concerts, sporting events, ...


Gerrit I know you feel strongly about this but it must be remembered that bull fighting is not only barbaric but it is also the livlihood of many. If you throw the employees on the dole you simply create enemies with a grudge. People have invested in planned events. I would prefer the delay and serious efforts to deploy the resources in a sensible time scale. If not in other parts of Spain you will get much greater entrenchment and anger. One sure way to create resistance is tell people they cannot do this or that 

And I hope the authorities do not think the job is done. They still need to demonstrate especially to the younger generation that you can have culture without tormenting animals. 

But I'm with you that it is a battle won in a war. Hopefully there will also be progress in the general factory farming sector.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

You are absolutely right, but I get carried away too easily when it comes to animal rights. My bad.

By the way, for those "employees" of bullfighting losing their job... For the toreador and matador I have an easy solution that doesn't even require jobhunting for them: a court sentence of cruelty against animals, an empty cell in the nearest prison, and a few years behind bars to hopefully realise that once they're in the free world again there is no need to torture any living creature.


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## BCNGUIRI (Sep 15, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, there were I believe 20 in the Monumental in Barcelona in 2009 alone! Then there are all the little town celebrations, so bullfighting, while not being the mainstream choice of entertainment, is alive and kicking in Catalonia


Its hardly alive and kicking, 20 events in a year is not exactly a lot! people here are simply just not interested, its only been kept alive by a few tourists, Andalusian migrants and the odd aging PP follower! In the delta del ebre region there is slightly more interest in bull torturing but it more corridas y encierros!

it´s passing in 2012 will hardly be noticed!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BCNGUIRI said:


> Its hardly alive and kicking, 20 events in a year is not exactly a lot! people here are simply just not interested, its only been kept alive by a few tourists, Andalusian migrants and the odd aging PP follower! In the delta del ebre region there is slightly more interest in bull torturing but it more corridas y encierros!
> 
> it´s passing in 2012 will hardly be noticed!


Hi!
I don't think I've seen so many posts written by one person in such a short time span! 
My comment of:


> Bullfighting is alive and kicking in Catalonia


was written in response to 


> I read/heard somewhere that there has been only one bullfight in Catalunya in the past decade. So this ban seems more symbolic.


by mrypg9
So, I was comparing 1 bullfight in the whole of Catalonia in a decade to 20 in Barcelona alone - that's alive and kicking to me!


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

For sure there's not many bull fights going on here, but one is still too many. It's like someone saying "criminality is under control, only 20 people got stabbed to death in our streets this year". With every bull fight comes the death of an innocent being, one is still too many. I'm glad it's been outlawed but would have prefered a direct ban. Whatever those matadors have to do to replace their income is the least of my worries ; let's say my respect for people who find torturing animals amusing is below zero and that they should praise themselves lucky not be behid bars.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gerrit said:


> For sure there's not many bull fights going on here, but one is still too many. It's like someone saying "criminality is under control, only 20 people got stabbed to death in our streets this year". With every bull fight comes the death of an innocent being, one is still too many. I'm glad it's been outlawed but would have prefered a direct ban. Whatever those matadors have to do to replace their income is the least of my worries ; let's say my respect for people who find torturing animals amusing is below zero and that they should praise themselves lucky not be behid bars.


While I totally agree with you that bullfighting is barbaric and cruel, it isn't just the matadors who will be out of work if it is banned. Where I live there are a lot of people working in the _ganaderias_ where they breed _ toros bravos_. You can't just make them redundant overnight; there is no other work here for them.

Change should and will come, but it will be gradual. Human rights must come before animal rights.


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## BCNGUIRI (Sep 15, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> While I totally agree with you that bullfighting is barbaric and cruel, it isn't just the matadors who will be out of work if it is banned. Where I live there are a lot of people working in the _ganaderias_ where they breed _ toros bravos_. You can't just make them redundant overnight; there is no other work here for them.
> 
> Change should and will come, but it will be gradual. Human rights must come before animal rights.


Why cant you? How many hundreds of thousands of people in Spain have lost their jobs in the last couple for years as their jobs! A few of my friends have had to move country to find work. What's so special about these people that they should have job security that no one else has!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

BCNGUIRI said:


> Why cant you? How many hundreds of thousands of people in Spain have lost their jobs in the last couple for years as their jobs! A few of my friends have had to move country to find work. What's so special about these people that they should have job security that no one else has!


Good point, of course you are right. Sometimes I just say controversial things to generate a reaction.

It's certainly a big deal round here though, and my point about human rights before animal rights still stands.


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## pensionista (Sep 6, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Good point, of course you are right. Sometimes I just say controversial things to generate a reaction.
> 
> It's certainly a big deal round here though, and my point about human rights before animal rights still stands.


Can I just put in my pennyworth here...as a former devotee of La Corrida.
For many years I was an absolute fan. I saw it as a ballet...the grace and elegance of the matador against the sheer raw power of the bull. I was always captivated by it, even though a part of me was telling me I should'nt be experiencing pleasure watching an animal being degraded and tortured. 
Then I got into a heated discussion about animals in circuses (which I abhorr with a passion).
This got me thinking about my "dual stance". I realised I could not justify one and denounce the other. I now see bullfighting for what it is...BARBARIC AND MEDIEVAL. It has no place in the 21st century.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

pensionista said:


> Can I just put in my pennyworth here...as a former devotee of La Corrida.
> For many years I was an absolute fan. I saw it as a ballet...the grace and elegance of the matador against the sheer raw power of the bull. I was always captivated by it, even though a part of me was telling me I should'nt be experiencing pleasure watching an animal being degraded and tortured.
> Then I got into a heated discussion about animals in circuses (which I abhorr with a passion).
> This got me thinking about my "dual stance". I realised I could not justify one and denounce the other. I now see bullfighting for what it is...BARBARIC AND MEDIEVAL. It has no place in the 21st century.


That's really interesting. How did you become a fan? The first time you went, did you go along with an open mind? I must confess if it wasn't for the blood streaming out of the bulls' back, I too could imagine myself being seduced by the grace and elegance.

But we all have double standards to some extent. I deplore barbaric farming practices and try to avoid buying factory-farmed meat to cook at home, but if I'm eating out I don't ask where the pork in the meatballs comes from.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

You know I'm a staunch socialist so normally you'd never hear me say that these people should not be thought of when they lose their jobs. However, when bullfighting is considered, the fact that they're not behind bars is already too generous for these barbaric people. Human rights come first yes, but in the case humans engage in anything this cruel, I prefer to make an exception and put the animal rights first. My sympathy always goes to the toro. This is torture, let's not forget about that. This isn't a normal job or anything to be proud of.

Once there's no fights anymore these people will get unemployment benefit just like anyone else losing their job, unless they can find an alternative profession. The breeders of the bulls for the fight are equally guilty than the matadors themselves. If it depends on me, all people who were involved in organising this barbarism, would spend the next two years in a prison cell.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gerrit said:


> You know I'm a staunch socialist so normally you'd never hear me say that these people should not be thought of when they lose their jobs. However, when bullfighting is considered, the fact that they're not behind bars is already too generous for these barbaric people. Human rights come first yes, but in the case humans engage in anything this cruel, I prefer to make an exception and put the animal rights first. My sympathy always goes to the toro. This is torture, let's not forget about that. This isn't a normal job or anything to be proud of.
> 
> Once there's no fights anymore these people will get unemployment benefit just like anyone else losing their job, unless they can find an alternative profession. The breeders of the bulls for the fight are equally guilty than the matadors themselves. If it depends on me, all people who were involved in organising this barbarism, would spend the next two years in a prison cell.


What about dairy farmers then? Have you ever heard a mother cow or goat crying for her newborn young after they have taken it away? it is heartbreaking. You could define that as torture, inflicted on animals so that humans can have a nice piece of cheese.

You could say the same about any form of industrialised meat production involving keeping animals in cramped, filthy conditions. 

So where do you draw the line? Do all the people working in supermarkets that sell meat and dairy produce lose their jobs too?


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

It's a difficult line to be drawn without making dictatorship-like measurements. For me the line was easier to draw on personal level: I became vegetarian when I was 6 years old and have been ever since. I try to avoid dairy whenever possible as well. The latter one is harder because in a bakery for example you don't always have the baker himself behind the counter and the person selling doesn't always know exactly which breads are free of butter and milk. Cheese and eggs are easier to avoid and I do that very strictly.

Obviously one cannot enforce vegetarianism on others, so knowing that I think sensibilisation campaigns against animal cruelty are the way to go (good campaigns, not the crap PETA comes up with)

And as for bullfighting the line if it's animal abuse or not is very easy to draw. Close the arena's , today better than tomorrow. Or no, I want one last fight in the arena, but a bit of a different variety: a gang of 10 fully fit toro's against matadors robbed of their gear and weapons. And the bulls can take revenge for all of those who died for the sake of "entertainment". Once this last fight is done and the bull has taken a symbolic revenge, we can forget about this cruelty forever (oh, what about the seriously injured matador... well, after years or finding pleasure in killing already wounded animals, he can experience the flip side of the coin himself :evil


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## BCNGUIRI (Sep 15, 2010)

no meat, no seafood and no dairy products - and people invite you to dinner here? jaja


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Bullfighting will die a death, the young are more interested in football.

Bullfighting died in the Canary Islands for lack of interest, it was then made illegal in 1991.

Perhaps if the press didn't make such a fuss it would cease sooner. Sadly those magnificent beasts of the plaza del toros, they too may become extinct. The men in the fancy clothes will probably become taxi drivers, politicians, or drag queens.

I have never been to a Bullfight and never will and the rights and wrongs do not concern me, neither could I get passionate about men and dogs chasing foxes however I would never be involved with either.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Bullfighting will die a death, the young are more interested in football.
> 
> Bullfighting died in the Canary Islands for lack of interest, it was then made illegal in 1991.
> 
> ...


It might die out sooner if it weren't artificially kept alive by state subsidies to the tune of over half a billion euros a year. The state subsidies started under Franco, who saw it as a good way to promote a sense of "Spanishness", and powerful lobbies such as breeders and the hotel industry keep the pressure up.

That money could be spent far more usefully!


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

BCNGUIRI said:


> no meat, no seafood and no dairy products - and people invite you to dinner here? jaja


Actually I'm a semi-recluse so I don't know that many people that could invite me. But in my circle of friends (which, must be added, is small), I do get invitations to join for dinner. We usually go to a restaurant then where there's a bit of everything and everything eats what he/she wishes. We don't go specifically to vegetarian restaurants, but we just make sure there's vegetarian/vegan options on the menu. Which nowadays is the case in the overwhelming amount of restaurants, so taking a veggie out for dinner isn't that hard


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