# Thinking of moving to other side of the world!



## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Hi

This is my first time on this forum! 

I really need some advice and for that reason I've joined. My other half lives in SA Joburg and I am now thinking of marrying him and moving to SA. My family and I are very worried about the crime stories we hear about SA and especially in Joburg. I've lived in London all my life. Recently I met someone who described SA as heaven and hell on earth - Heaven because of the weather, beautiful houses and places - Hell because you are living in a cage!

I've not been to SA and I'm planning a visit soon, my partner has mentioned moving to Houghton, is that a good area to start a new life, family???
What about work? I’m an English teacher and I take part in community projects and like to participate in charities events such as comic relief.

Education is very important for me I would want my children to go to good schools and universities.

I love my life in London, high street shopping, theatres, meals, movies, coffee places etc

Please any advice you can give will be valuable.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Kriz, I'm not being funny when I ask wether anything other than absolute posititivity and debunking all the crime stories you have heard, would change anything in your plans?
your otherhalf lives there, he has obviously said he will protect you, nothing anyone says is going to change anything.
I have come to realise the best advice anyone can give is , go, you will either be lucky,or unlucky.
its as simple as that.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Kriz, I'm not being funny when I ask wether anything other than absolute posititivity and debunking all the crime stories you have heard, would change anything in your plans?
> your otherhalf lives there, he has obviously said he will protect you, nothing anyone says is going to change anything.
> I have come to realise the best advice anyone can give is , go, you will either be lucky,or unlucky.
> its as simple as that.


Thanks for your input, yes he has told me he will always protect me and be there for me.

Can you or anyone please tell me if you know about the area and jobs that i've mentioned above?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Houghton is an older suburb, large houses and gardens, all houses have major security because its needed, schoolteachers are in very short supply but you will struggle to get a work permit until you are married.
as to raising kids in SA? I moved from SA because I did not want to raise my child there.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Houghton is an older suburb, large houses and gardens, all houses have major security because its needed, schoolteachers are in very short supply but you will struggle to get a work permit until you are married.
> as to raising kids in SA? I moved from SA because I did not want to raise my child there.


why??


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

because she is a girl.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Daxk said:


> because she is a girl.


?? can you not raise a girl in SA? if not then why?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

because she has less chance of being raped, murdered or contracting HIV in Ireland then she has in SA.
Secondly, when she goes to University and starts work one day, she will be judged on her ability not on the colour of her skin.
Thirdly,I wanted her to grow up living in freeedom not in a jail.
here, she and her little friends bail over the back fence into the fields,go for bicycle rides in the forest,catch a bus to go to shopping or to a cinema,
when she gets older and starts dating, I will worry about car accidents but not about her being hi-jacked.

I have just been back for a Holiday to see my family, the constant locking and unlocking of doors, my child having to be inside at dusk,the alarm going off at 3am because there is a mouse,the constant being aware of who is behind you, around you,

all of that re-affirmed that if I won the euromillions lotto, and could afford the best security in the World, SA is no place to live.

The weather might be great, but its no use if you cant enjoy it.
if you are young and single, go, enjoy, take risks, its what being young is about.
but when you have kids, life changes.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Daxk said:


> because she has less chance of being raped, murdered or contracting HIV in Ireland then she has in SA.
> Secondly, when she goes to University and starts work one day, she will be judged on her ability not on the colour of her skin.
> Thirdly,I wanted her to grow up living in freeedom not in a jail.
> here, she and her little friends bail over the back fence into the fields,go for bicycle rides in the forest,catch a bus to go to shopping or to a cinema,
> ...


Thanks


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## Little Mizz Polar Bear (Oct 8, 2010)

Daxk said:


> because she has less chance of being raped, murdered or contracting HIV in Ireland then she has in SA.
> Secondly, when she goes to University and starts work one day, she will be judged on her ability not on the colour of her skin.
> Thirdly,I wanted her to grow up living in freeedom not in a jail.
> here, she and her little friends bail over the back fence into the fields,go for bicycle rides in the forest,catch a bus to go to shopping or to a cinema,
> ...


Agree 100% with you.

We also left SA 10 years ago 'cos we want to give our kids(now 14 & 12) a proper safe life. I went back to SA in July for holiday(visiting family), and thats it, will go there for holidays, but live there....no way. Still thinks SA is one of most beautiful countries in the world.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Kriz, I agree with the other posters. Your better half is in South Africa, and if that is where you should be, then go for it. 

You will have enough time to observe and decide together what the way forward should be. Read through the threads here, don't take chances, but don't be paranoid either.

Take care!


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

*Do your research*



kriz said:


> Hi
> 
> This is my first time on this forum!
> 
> ...



Please take into account that you have only received feedback from two people who are NOT expats but rather former South African residents. The first reply was from someone who seems to be hell bent on not having anyone move to his birth country and responds to every single post with heaps of negativity. If you read his previous responses you will find that he had a very traumatic experience while living there and this has "coloured" his view on his own country. The fact is, many people do Live in South Africa, many of which experience little to no crime at all. This is not to say that crime is non-existent, it certainly is and must be considered, ABSOLUTELY! However, most of the crime is in the townships and poorer areas of the country. There are many excellent schools and there is a high standard of living.
I live in Cape Town, not Jo'burg....would I live in Jo'burg? No. But that is because I am a city and beach person and if you want to live a nice life in the Jo'burg area, you must live in the suburbs...Sandton, Rosebank etc, Houghton, is a great area. Do your research, don't give up your "other half" because 1 or 2 people tell you it's hell on earth. It isn't.
Johannesburg was ranked 96th in the recent Mercer 2010 Quality of Living Report (out of 420 cities), London is 39th, Athens is 74th. Look it up!

As for being a school teacher and doing community projects, I think you will have really great opportunities for both.

Remember the World Cup in June/July of this year? Thousands of visitors flocked to Jo'burg and there were few incidents of crime, if it was so bad then how could this be the case?

The gates and security do take getting used to, you will have to adjust to a different lifestyle....gated communities are a great option. It's not for everyone but expats do exist and I'm sure you will find many others in Jo'burg.

Good Luck!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Daxk said:


> because she has less chance of being raped, murdered or contracting HIV in Ireland then she has in SA.
> Secondly, when she goes to University and starts work one day, she will be judged on her ability not on the colour of her skin.
> Thirdly,I wanted her to grow up living in freeedom not in a jail.
> here, she and her little friends bail over the back fence into the fields,go for bicycle rides in the forest,catch a bus to go to shopping or to a cinema,
> ...


which part of the red highlighted post did Yma not understand.

Yma, go and live in Jhbg, and then comment.
but also kindly read the exact info the OP requested.
and kindly try and keep personal attacks out of your posts.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Yma15 said:


> Please take into account that you have only received feedback from two people who are NOT expats but rather former South African residents. The first reply was from someone who seems to be hell bent on not having anyone move to his birth country and responds to every single post with heaps of negativity. If you read his previous responses you will find that he had a very traumatic experience while living there and this has "coloured" his view on his own country. The fact is, many people do Live in South Africa, many of which experience little to no crime at all. This is not to say that crime is non-existent, it certainly is and must be considered, ABSOLUTELY! However, most of the crime is in the townships and poorer areas of the country. There are many excellent schools and there is a high standard of living.
> I live in Cape Town, not Jo'burg....would I live in Jo'burg? No. But that is because I am a city and beach person and if you want to live a nice life in the Jo'burg area, you must live in the suburbs...Sandton, Rosebank etc, Houghton, is a great area. Do your research, don't give up your "other half" because 1 or 2 people tell you it's hell on earth. It isn't.
> Johannesburg was ranked 96th in the recent Mercer 2010 Quality of Living Report (out of 420 cities), London is 39th, Athens is 74th. Look it up!
> 
> ...


Thanks 

that's a bit of positive news I've heard in a long time about SA?

The only thing stopping me from moving is the horrific stories people have to tell me about life in SA.

I have to think of long-term and the future of my children/family. This can't be a short-term thing for me. My partner has told me from day one that SA is for life. So I'll be moving forever!!!


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

kriz,

You have said it yourself... that you have not heard anything positive in a long time with regards to SA. Does that not worry you? Is everybody who is negative regarding SA either biased, anti, cowards, deluded, etc... or should one or two warning bells start to ring?

You said you are moving to JHB northern suburbs so lets add some facts to go with YMA's opinion from the other side of the counrty.
1. He said that you shouldn't live in JHB but in the suburbs... well no-one lives in JHB it is merely the CBD and the subrbs he mentioned are the exclusive areas. Check out the latest crime stats and you will find that Sandton had one of the highest crime figures in the JHB area (the actual link was posted a few months ago).
2. No-one is saying you are going to be slaughtered the minute you arrive but 9% of the nearly 600 000 deaths in the year we not of natural causes (this is made up of vehicle accidents, drownigs etc and murder / mad slaughter etc). Check out the UK stats, a comparable population size, and see the difference.
3. Many stats are thrown about so choose the ones that suit your needs. The numbers are simple murder, rape, violent assault, home invasions etc are all things we live with. They are higher here, by how much depends on your sources.

In closing my advise is don't give up on a relationship until you have checked all the facts for yourself. I personally agree 100%with Daxk. It might be bad now but the chances of it getting better are slim. The money pot is getting smaller with a growing population... does this not sound familiar... the african legacy!

I wish you and your partner all the success and hope that you can make it work.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

kriz said:


> ?? can you not raise a girl in SA? if not then why?


either you have no experience of SA, or that was almost a trolling type comment, have you any idea of the rape statistics in SA? 

SA has the world's highest incidence of rape, a girl born there today has a one in two chance of being raped, with those odds, who but an idiot would want to bring up a girl there?

The odds of violence against the person don't make it much more sensible to even bring up boys there. Especially as AA and BEE and whatever other acronyms they have thought of means the odds of said kids getting into uni, or a decent job after school are minimised by the Govt legislating in the favour of the "disadvantaged" (don't know how anyone born after 94 can even be considered "disadvantaged", but that's another argument).

Bringing up a family in SA when you have the means and ability to do it elsewhere is just short sighted and probably even stupid.


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

kriz said:


> Thanks
> 
> that's a bit of positive news I've heard in a long time about SA?
> 
> ...


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

d123 said:


> either you have no experience of SA, or that was almost a trolling type comment, have you any idea of the rape statistics in SA?
> 
> SA has the world's highest incidence of rape, a girl born there today has a one in two chance of being raped, with those odds, who but an idiot would want to bring up a girl there?
> 
> ...


I respect the fact that you and others have fled SA for your own personal reasons and I have no doubt that they are quite valid, including reasons of personal safety. What I don't understand is that as a South African, why you and others here are discouraging other people from moving here who can actually help SA improve....and it is improving!
There is a serious shortage of skilled people in YOUR country, this particular poster is a teacher, I cannot think of a profession that SA could benefit more from. It isn't perfect but there are definitely benefits to living here, I could live elsewhere if I chose but I actually really love it here and for now, I'm planning on staying...and there are many others like me here in SA.

And, for one moment, I would like to talk about how those being born after '94 are still disadvantaged. Let me give you a random case that although is not based on anyone specific, I'm sure there are thousands, if not millions in this position.
Take any Black family that grew up during Apartheid and generations before them under colonialist rule. They live in any given township in SA. They have no education and all they know is their poverty and the meager paying jobs that they were allowed to perform. So 1994 comes along, Mandela is in power and there is freedom for those people. The wife gives birth on that very day.
Who is going to encourage that child that they can be something? What kind of education will that child receive? Will their parents find it important to educate them when they need feed themselves, when they need to survive? Even though education is the only way out of poverty but they can't see that because no one ever told them the importance of education?
Surely that child has a much better shot than his/her predecessors but do you actually think that that child is at the same level in terms of "advantages" than a white child born on the same day to a nice, well-to-do family who can actually afford to send them to any one of your excellent private schools? Even though affirmative action is in effect, the white, educated family is in no danger of slumping into the poverty level of that Black family. Today in SA you walk around, you shop and while yes, you see Black and Coloured people working, 7 times out of 10, the people in the higher positions are not Black. It's changing but it's a slow process.

Where you end up in life has a lot to do with where you start.

So if you left and you're happy, good on you. If you want to warn others of the dangers of SA, that's fair enough. But to call someone considering the move "STUPID" is going way too far and comments like those are causing serious harm to your own country.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yma, a Good balanced post.
just a few questions if I may?
Who is going to encourage that child that they can be something? What kind of education will that child receive? Will their parents find it important to educate them when they need feed themselves, when they need to survive? Even though education is the only way out of poverty but they can't see that because no one ever told them the importance of education?
Surely that child has a much better shot than his/her predecessors but do you actually think that that child is at the same level in terms of "advantages" than a white child born on the same day to a nice, well-to-do family who can actually afford to send them to any one of your excellent private schools? 

Government education is free.
There is a shortage of good qualified teachers in Government Schools because they closed 150 out of 200 teachers training Colleges IIRC. (Kader Asmal, Minister of Education)
Teachers and Nurses recently went on strike for higher pay.
They are the most essential yet worst paid of any Govt Employee.
Absenteeism amongst teachers is the worst of any qualified Govt or Municipal
employment position.

Now is that the fault of someone who lived there and criticises whats going on in the Country?
someone who points out the failures and dangers (because it is a dangerous place to live)
The OP is a teacher, I will guarantee you that if she is unmarried to a South African she will spend more than a year trying to get work permit.
in a profession that SA desparately needs.
and then she will be paid less than almost anyone else.

Now whose fault is that?

To stop expats and people who have left criticising SA (and those who still live there who also criticise) 
Take away the ammunition.
No-one could criticise the Police activity during the WC, they did a superb job, there was less crime in the whole of SA during the WC then during any comparable time , since 1990.
They had night courts, people who were caught stealing or hi-jacking were arrested, charged and tried the same day.

and the critical expast had to say !Wow!! well done!

I lived there for 54 years, I saw more roadblocks during the July/August this year that I was there than I have ever seen (yes, Johanna, even more than the Apartheid years) during any comparable period including Xmas and New Year.
It was great!
I had nothing to fear!
power to the Police.

so why has it not continued?

Yma, its no use jumping on expats for warning people about the very real danger, especially in Gauteng, and if you want to say its declining, I'll dig out the link where the SAPS Investigated and found that the Criminal Stats for murders last year were falsified by some Police Stations.
Not me, the SAPS themselves.
If its declining and getting better, thats great, my mother still lives there, she is too old to leave.
but it hasn't stopped.
its still unacceptably high.

and maybe if the goodnews sites and the SA Tourism sites weren't all promoting going to a nightclub and restuarant and experiencing the "real Africa" in Gugs,
The Township experience,
then maybe SA would not be on the front page of every major newspaper because a Tourist got murdered.
Its no use saying they should have been more careful when SA Touristinfo promotes it.

not so?


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Yma, a Good balanced post.
> just a few questions if I may?
> Who is going to encourage that child that they can be something? What kind of education will that child receive? Will their parents find it important to educate them when they need feed themselves, when they need to survive? Even though education is the only way out of poverty but they can't see that because no one ever told them the importance of education?
> Surely that child has a much better shot than his/her predecessors but do you actually think that that child is at the same level in terms of "advantages" than a white child born on the same day to a nice, well-to-do family who can actually afford to send them to any one of your excellent private schools?
> ...


Government education IS free but it won't get you a great education! If you lived in SA would YOU send your kids to a public school? Come ON! 50 kids in a classroom, no textbooks! You said yourself how high the teacher absenteeism is!
What kind of an education are those children getting? It wasn't the touristinfo that promoted going to the township nightclub, it was Jaimie Oliver and furthermore, you don't need to be a genius to figure out it's not a great idea to get lost in Khayelitsha, at night no less!Their driver should go to jail for negligence! If tourists were getting killed all the time, if it was THAT dangerous, this hardly would have made worldwide news.

Things will only get better once skilled people either return or new ones come along.
I vote for new ones, SA is better off without those who spent most of their lives in the "Golden Years" of Apartheid and now look down their noses at their own country while it tries to recover from the years of intolerable, sickening oppression.
You don't want to go back? DON'T! But whether you like it or not, things are improving and will continue to do so. You don't want to help, that's fine too but stop trying to push it down farther with your only negative views. Did you read that article I talked about in good news? SA ranked 5th OVERALL for expats! 5th! Better than OZ even! HSBC survey, how about that???


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yma, I have no intention of getting into a contest.
a good education only needs 4 things, a teacher, a student who wants to learn, hardwork at it and not giving up.

There are Rural Schools that consistently deliver 100% matriculation passes every year.
Not all children can go to Private Schools.
Every parent will want a better education for their children (including those who are well educated)

If SA is better off without those who left, thats fine.
if its improving, even better.
Its had 16 years since the election and in real terms 20 to recover.
I and others like me are not pushing SA down, its doing that by its own actions.

but I think its wrong to only offer the sugar coating.
let those who want to go there, especially with children, all the information.
then they can make an informed choice.

the OP, she is young, it will be an adventure.
she has time.
I think she should go, I think any young skilled person should go and broaden their minds.
I did when I was in my teens and twenties, I took risks and chances, I hitch hiked through war torn countries, slept in jails, got jumped on often for taking risks.

and I survived, thankfully.
but kids are a different aspect, and if you have children you will know exactly what I mean.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> There's a website called sa goodnews .co.za


I've seen that site, it's not really much better than the propaganda sites like homecoming revolution.



Yma15 said:


> "HSBC surveyed over 4000 expatriates based in around 100 countries across the globe about their experiences living away from home.
> 
> Respondents were asked to rate countries based on criteria such as accommodation, food/diet, entertainment, health care, work/life balance, social life, commute to work and opportunities for sports and travel.


They must have surveyed some pretty high powered expats with very large salaries, you need a mega salary for any of those criteria to be ranked higher in SA than in OZ, EU or USA, but having said that, a survey covering only 400 people in a country is bound to be flawed.




Yma15 said:


> I can't link the site directly because I'm new here and the site won't let me. But here's another tidbit from an article dated Sept 2010;


You managed to show a link to the good news site, what stopped you doing the same for the "international survey"?



Yma15 said:


> "Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa has released the National Crime Statistics for the past fiscal year announcing a significant decline in the murder rate for the period.
> 
> Murder decreased by 8.6 percent from 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010.
> 
> ...


as daxk has already said, the stats you refer to have been fudged (actually completely fraudulent for a number of police areas). And even if you were to believe the stats, that still means around 74 people per day were murdered in SA, you think that compares favourably to the UK or OZ?

Its one thing to defend SA, but for anyone to try and encourage innocent people with half truths and twisted statistics isn't in anyone's interest. I would almost feel culpable if someone I had egged on actually went to SA with rose tinted glasses and then came to harm.

Anyone going to SA, with it's high violent crime, murder and rape need to do so with all the facts and eyes wide open, anything less is criminal.


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

d123 said:


> I've seen that site, it's not really much better than the propaganda sites like homecoming revolution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apologies if I wasn't clear as to the source of my information. Both the HSBC survey, which surveyed 4000 expats (not 400) and the lowered crime rate article are from sa good news.
Murder drops by 8.6%*-*South Africa - The Good News

SA fares well in global expat survey*-*South Africa - The Good News

Just because you say the report is flawed/fudged, that the situation is getting worse, and that good news is propaganda, doesn't actually make it so. Where is your proof? In fact, the only propaganda that I'm seeing is coming from you "Senior Expats" that don't even live in SA anymore and spew nothing but negativity.
I am talking about the positives because 90% of what all of you have spoken about is negative. I don't need to talk about the crime, all of you do an incredibly amazing job of reporting that all on your own even going so far as to call those thinking to move "idiots" and "stupid". 
I assure you, I am neither.

In response to the other post about "all you need is a teacher and child willing to learn to get a good education"....clearly he's never been to a classroom with 50 students and 1 teacher.

***"
They must have surveyed some pretty high powered expats with very large salaries, you need a mega salary for any of those criteria to be ranked higher in SA than in OZ, EU or USA, ****

That's the point friend, you don't need to earn a mega salary to live well in SA, but you will need a HUGE salary to have a good life in OZ/EU/US..in fact wasn't Sydney rated the most expensive city to live in the WORLD a year or two ago? Yes, I believe it was!

Oh and by the way, my quality of life here is Much better than what I had back in Canada. I actually do earn less than what I did back home but here I've got a beautiful flat with ocean views, I've got a car, I can buy whatever I want and socialize as often as I want because it's so much cheaper to live here. While I do take safety precautions, I am not paranoid and it doesn't affect my life greatly once you get used to the adjustment. 
Back home I had a tiny flat with a view of a brick wall, I took public transport and buying small luxuries as well as going to restaurants was prohibitively expensive causing me to go into debt. 

Say what you will, I speak from personal experience since I actually DO live in SA, Life Is Good.

And I will say this one last time, no one is saying that SA is perfect or that the crime rate isn't high and that one should not know about these things in advance before moving. However, for you to completely discourage someone who is considering moving in order to marry her love is much worse than me showing the positive side of SA.

You don't even live here anymore, why don't you just stay in the UK forum?


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Yma,

Please check out the OP questions and future situation. She is going to be in Gauteng not sitting in your seaview flat. She is going to be one of those over worked and underpaid teachers and may also have a class of 50. She is probably not going to have the HSBC survey expat lifestyle. There are people who have been waiting for nearly 6 years to get work permits sorted out.

Furthermore, just because a persons credentials say they are somewhere else in the world does not mean that is correct. I am still here, in Gauteng, waiting for Aus to open their state migration pland. My eldest child goes to a state school, one of the very very few that is still acceptable.

I have family that live in Randburg(near Sandton) they have been hijacked twice so Iknow what I am talking about. I have also lived here a lot longer than you and my reality is a lot closer to the OP future reality (small kids with dubious education future, living in JHB, a wife who has to drive at night sometimes whith large numbers of corrupt cops about). How bad is it when you can't tell your wife or kids that they should go to a cop if they are in trouble / lost? The normal SAP are still largely okay, but the metro cops are not so cool.

I've said it before... rather complain and get attention drawn to the problems instead of saying don't worry come on down to SA all the ex-SA expats are paranoid, scaremongerers. The fact is it is a dangerous country.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> Apologies if I wasn't clear as to the source of my information. Both the HSBC survey, which surveyed 4000 expats (not 400) and the lowered crime rate article are from sa good news.
> South Africa - The Good News
> I assure you, I am neither.


Sorry, I didn't mean 400, that was a typo, anyone with a little maths would see my mistake, I clearly meant 40, 4000 expats in 100 countries, means they would have surveyed 40 people per country.

Wouldn't be hard to find 40 people on extremely large salary + perks to be positive.



> In response to the other post about "all you need is a teacher and child willing to learn to get a good education"....clearly he's never been to a classroom with 50 students and 1 teacher.


Thats for daxk to respond to, but I'm sure he was speaking with some experience.



> That's the point friend, you don't need to earn a mega salary to live well in SA,
> 
> Oh and by the way, my quality of life here is Much better than what I had back in Canada. I actually do earn less than what I did back home but here I've got a beautiful flat with ocean views, I've got a car, I can buy whatever I want and socialize as often as I want because it's so much cheaper to live here.


That's the point, you think everyone lives like you in SA?

Do you think a state school teacher earns enough to live in a "beautiful flat with ocean views" and afford a car, and afford a decent medical plan, and afford to send their children to a decent school, and "socialise" in downtown JHB whenever they want.

Get real, and realise the majority of people in normal jobs earning Rands aren't in your fairytale.



> You don't even live here anymore, why don't you just stay in the UK forum?


Because unlike you seem to think, freedom of expression is still allowed, and while you might be living in your little gilded palace by the sea, most of us grew up in SA and still have family there who, by and large, dont live your fairytale with Canadian dollars and fancy life style.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yma?? from your Goodnews site:

Rural school does it again - South Africa - The Good News
For three years in a row Mbilwi Secondary School in Limpopo has remained in the elite Club 100 with more than 100 matric pupils who passed maths and science on the higher grade.

In fact, this year, out of the 217 pupils who wrote matric at the school, 198 have passed these subjects in levels 3 to 7, which means they scored between 40% and 100%.

“We have nearly doubled the number of pupils necessary to qualify for Club 100, and we hope to shine even brighter with the matric class of 2010," said Principal Nnditsheni Ramugondo.

In 2007, Mbilwi became the first school that was not a former Model C school to join the club, which was launched the previous year by former minister of education Naledi Pandor and former deputy president Pumzile Mlambo-Nqcuka to encourage excellence in schools.

Ramugondo's pride and joy was increased by the fact that one of his pupils, Rotondwa Nengovhela of Ngovhela village outside Thohoyandou, has received distinctions in all seven of her subjects - and got 100% for maths.

"She is our top learner and probably one of the best in the province," said Ramugondo.

Success ‘not a miracle’
He added that the school's success was not a "miracle".

"It is only dedication, determination and hard work among the educators and learners that make us do better each year," he said.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Don’t be fooled by the statuses showing where expats live. As with many here, I still live in Cape Town for the greater part of the year, trying to spend as much time possible at my US home and establish a base for my kid’s future. I am one of many born & bred South Africans trying to make sense of what was left by the previous not so cool (apartheid was wrong, no debate on that) government in terms of infrastructure like roads, water plants, power stations, schools, universities, hospitals, public infrastructure and more, now being destroyed and squandered. If you’re an expat living here, much of what you are still enjoying in terms of infrastructure etc. are thanks to what was built up over many years by those horrible colonialists.

There is a BIG difference between being a tourist here, being an expat for a few years, and having LIVED here for many years seeing and experiencing how this country is going down the tube. I will say we have another 10-15 years in which this government can ride the wave of the infrastructure that was established here before that is destroyed due to South Africa’s gradual deterioration to just another inferior African state.

In South Africa, the top 20 percent income group deemed "rich" earn from R7750-00 ($1107) per month. The top 10 percent; group, seen as super rich, start at the R16250-00 ($2321) per month threshold. Now can you tell me how the top 20 percent; have the economic power, even if they have the will, to change the situation? In order to get the rest there, we need a culture of education and positive economic growth far higher than average to play catch-up. If South Africa could understand that, like South Korea did years ago, we may be able to change the tide in 15-20 years.

South Africa’s future success is closely linked to the rest of Africa’s level of economic prosperity, which is nothing less than an abortion. Africa is the second largest continent with the most natural resources in the world and a population of more than 1 billion people. YET, 58 percent; of Africa’s population live on less than $1.25 a day. Africa’s Gross National Income (GNI) is 1 percent; of the world GNI, and less than i.e. The Netherlands, about the size of the Western Cape Province totaling a population of only 16 million.

Now considering all the above: If you are living as an expat in South Africa in your sea-view flat as mentioned, chances are that you fall into LSM10 and that is the problem. You are living in a country within a country. You travel from Sandton to Camps Bay, visit your private hospital and dine at the fine restaurants. This is changing slowly but surely, as this “country within a country” is infiltrated by desperate and hungry people.

If you are living off the wealth you created in your country of origin, with your kid’s probably living back home, you may find South Africa to be THE place. You can afford expensive security, get more for your currency, have access to the best health services etc. etc. We have A LOT of those examples here in Camps Bay, where most of the beach properties belong to international investors, not locals. You don’t need to bring the next 40 years into the equation and you don’t have to be bothered much with the increasing poverty levels of the rest of the 80 percent population. You are OK here and can live a wonderful life in your sea view apartment, pack up and leave the country by the time you need special/frail care, and be concerned about a son or a daughter who has to make do with their circumstances here.

But if you are a young forward thinking, intelligent and purpose driven couple having to raise your kids here, you have to consider their chances of surviving 40 years from now; their chances of being able to emigrate and start a new life when the wheels come off and the last bit of economic life is destroyed.

Whichever way makes you happy, I’m sure even the most critical South African will wish you all the best. But not without giving you the facts and forewarning especially young couples who have to help create a legacy and future for their descendants. 

I say, think deep and think twice before you raise a family here.


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

zambezi.king said:


> Yma,
> 
> Please check out the OP questions and future situation. She is going to be in Gauteng not sitting in your seaview flat. She is going to be one of those over worked and underpaid teachers and may also have a class of 50. She is probably not going to have the HSBC survey expat lifestyle. There are people who have been waiting for nearly 6 years to get work permits sorted out.
> 
> ...


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Yma?? from your Goodnews site:
> 
> Rural school does it again - South Africa - The Good News
> For three years in a row Mbilwi Secondary School in Limpopo has remained in the elite Club 100 with more than 100 matric pupils who passed maths and science on the higher grade.
> ...


That's wonderful! Thank you for posting! I am very hopeful that this school's success will spread throughout the country!


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Yma15 said:


> IT'S SHAMEFUL THE WAY ALL OF YOU ARE ATTACKING ME FOR MENTIONING THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF LIFE IN SA. [/B]


 Dear Yma, please don't take anything said here personal. Your views are just as important as the other's, it helps give balance to the questions submitted and allows the reader to make an informed decision.

As long as it is healthy (sometimes heated) debating without personal attacks, it is all well.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> IT'S SHAMEFUL THE WAY ALL OF YOU ARE ATTACKING ME FOR MENTIONING THE POSITIVE ASPECTS OF LIFE IN SA.
> 
> THE OP IS LOOKING FOR A FOREIGNERS PERSPECTIVE ON LIFE IN SA AND I AM THE ONLY ONE HERE WHO IS IN THAT POSITION!!!![/B]


I don't think you are being attacked for mentioning the positive aspects of SA, most of us are aware of them, but you are being criticized for your naive, (almost ignorant) attitude towards the major problems SA is facing. (granted, being a rich foreigner you are insulated from many of the worst one's facing normal SAns).

SA is at breaking point with violent crime, especially murder and rape, the medical system for most normal people is falling apart, the infrastructure like roads, electricity distribution, water, government services are disintegrating and a normal person considering going out there to work (especially in a lowish paid job like a state school teacher) needs to be aware of the negatives.

Not everyone can afford ivory towers on the beach in Cape Town.....


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Don’t be fooled by the statuses showing where expats live. As with many here, I still live in Cape Town for the greater part of the year, trying to spend as much time possible at my US home and establish a base for my kid’s future. I am one of many born & bred South Africans trying to make sense of what was left by the previous not so cool (apartheid was wrong, no debate on that) government in terms of infrastructure like roads, water plants, power stations, schools, universities, hospitals, public infrastructure and more, now being destroyed and squandered. If you’re an expat living here, much of what you are still enjoying in terms of infrastructure etc. are thanks to what was built up over many years by those horrible colonialists.
> 
> There is a BIG difference between being a tourist here, being an expat for a few years, and having LIVED here for many years seeing and experiencing how this country is going down the tube. I will say we have another 10-15 years in which this government can ride the wave of the infrastructure that was established here before that is destroyed due to South Africa’s gradual deterioration to just another inferior African state.
> 
> ...


So you admit then, that the life of an expat is actually quite good? At least for the next 40yrs, you should be alright?! Super! The OP was concerned about raising her kids here Now, so in 40yrs, they'll be adults having lived a nice life.

I live in Muizenberg, not Camps Bay. I am not among the elitists that live in their little cage and separate themselves from the rest of society. In fact, the reason I came to live here is because last year I volunteered at a children's home in Wynberg for a few months. I developed a strong bond with a couple of the children and after travelling around for a while and then settling back home, I decided SA is where I should be. So, while I myself am living a good life, I am also very much involved in the lives of those two boys who Will get out of the cycle of poverty with some encouragement and guidance, things they aren't getting from their families. These are same children that someone here said "how could they be considered disadvantaged?" Because they were born after '94.
This is something that most of the 'Elite' South Africans who like you say "Shame, Apartheid was 'Not Cool' and then go and sip their martinis" would not consider doing. Those of you who look at the infrastructure and say "look what the colonialists did!" Yes, it's fabulous that they left some nice roads. Pat yourselves on the back.

If instead of running away they tried to roll up their sleeves and help, then perhaps you wouldn't have this horrible outlook on SA's future. But like I said earlier, I think it's better that you all leave, cause you're certainly not helping. And the more all of you talk about how horrible it is and how you should run for your lives, the more I want to stay. And I will.

Peace Out. I'm done here.


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

kriz said:


> Hi
> 
> This is my first time on this forum!
> 
> ...


I'll give you some advice. Go to another Forum, all they have here is bitter South Africans. If you are looking for some advice from expats, look elsewhere.

My advice? Go and see for yourself. And don't let your other half slip away, love is hard to find.

Best of luck to you!


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## Yma15 (Nov 18, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Dear Yma, please don't take anything said here personal. Your views are just as important as the other's, it helps give balance to the questions submitted and allows the reader to make an informed decision.
> 
> As long as it is healthy (sometimes heated) debating without personal attacks, it is all well.


I do take it personally when I've been called "stupid" "idiot" "naive" and my personal favorite, "ignorant"

All this from people who are not even expats in SA but rather those who ran away. This is supposed to be an *EXPAT FORUM*!

I've read older posts on here, anytime anyone says anything positive, these hooligans jump on them and they either run away or you BAN them! I even saw negative comments in your "pros about life in SA" discussion that were not removed by moderators. Balance? I think not.

You are all causing great harm to your own country. I believe that you do this because you enjoyed the "good years" of Apartheid and now that you don't have the status and privilege that you once had and you actually have to deal with the society that you enslaved, you run. You encourage its demise just so you could say "I told you so".

Shame on all of you. This forum is useless and pathetic.

Goodbye.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Yma15 said:


> So you admit then, that the life of an expat is actually quite good? At least for the next 40yrs, you should be alright?! Super! The OP was concerned about raising her kids here Now, so in 40yrs, they'll be adults having lived a nice life.
> 
> I live in Muizenberg, not Camps Bay. I am not among the elitists that live in their little cage and separate themselves from the rest of society. In fact, the reason I came to live here is because last year I volunteered at a children's home in Wynberg for a few months. I developed a strong bond with a couple of the children and after travelling around for a while and then settling back home, I decided SA is where I should be. So, while I myself am living a good life, I am also very much involved in the lives of those two boys who Will get out of the cycle of poverty with some encouragement and guidance, things they aren't getting from their families. These are same children that someone here said "how could they be considered disadvantaged?" Because they were born after '94.
> This is something that most of the 'Elite' South Africans who like you say "Shame, Apartheid was 'Not Cool' and then go and sip their martinis" would not consider doing. Those of you who look at the infrastructure and say "look what the colonialists did!" Yes, it's fabulous that they left some nice roads. Pat yourselves on the back.
> ...


 WOW, now this is where the boudary of healthy debating and personal attacks is overstepped. I commend you for the great work you are doing, and I am sure you are much appreciated by those kids.

As far as your comment that the the OP's kids will live a good life for 40 years, you totally misread it: "A wise person reads one word and understands two"


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> I do take it personally when I've been called "stupid" "idiot" "naive" and my personal favorite, "ignorant"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I used the words naive and ignorant with regard to the attitude you are displaying



d123 said:


> but you are being criticized for your naive, (almost ignorant) attitude towards the major problems SA is facing


If you are going to be thin skinned and want to act the victim, perhaps you shouldn't get involved in forums.

Oh, and as people keep telling you, people who are answering you have experience of the country, either living there or visiting family living in the real SA on a regular basis, you aren't quite the "expert" on the real SA you think you are.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> I do take it personally when I've been called "stupid" "idiot"
> 
> Goodbye.


I've just had a quick read through all the posts since your original post promoting sagoodnews, and I cannot find any post where you have been called either "stupid" or an "idiot".

Either I'm totally missing something or have these words just been added as an exaggeration to make your allegation of "bullying" seem worse?


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Yma15 said:


> zambezi.king said:
> 
> 
> > Yma,
> ...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yma15 said:


> That's wonderful! Thank you for posting! I am very hopeful that this school's success will spread throughout the country!


He has 50 pupils per teacher.


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

I would like to thank everyone for their input but please let’s not use the thread for personal attacks or for making people feel that their opinions and thoughts are invaluable. 

And please remember that I'm asking for your opinions and that I want you to share your experiences of living in SA/Joburg with me. 

This is a very big decision that I'm going to have to make for myself, my family and for my children to be.

Yes my partner has promised to protect and keep me happy, he has also told me about the crime and he hasn’t sugar coated things. He has lived in Joburg all his life, his family live there, he has his business there, so I won’t have to worry about setting up.

However, my purpose for going on to forums such as this is to get an idea of what life is like for people who have immigrated to SA. For people who have lived the kind of life that I live in the UK. 

In terms of working, I won’t be working for financial purposes but because I want to. What else would there be for me to do If I don’t work or take part in any charity projects?? Not to mention that I have spent most of life studying and training to become an English lecture; I would never want that to be a waste! 

I would love to hear from people who live, lived or will live in Joburg/SA. Without a doubt, I’ll be making a trip early next year to see for myself but in the meantime I’m using resources such as the forum to give me an idea.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Kriz,

I do live in JHB, having returned from the UK 4 years ago where I was there for 6 years. JHB will require a lot of getting used to as the infrastructure yo uare used to (public transport) does not exist. You wil have to get used to getting about by car.

The cafe lifestyle etc that you mentioned in your original post can be found alive and well here. When you come for your visit you will wonder what all the fuss is about and will probably not want to leave. 

The chances for meeting up with violent crime is higher (maybe twice as bad as Hackney or West Croydon on a Saturday night) but if you are vigilant and prepared then life goes on, you just sort of become acustomed to the situation. There will be many, many incidents that make you doubt the genetic makeup of some individuals but that is africa... life is cheap. You will simple let it roll off your back.

As for charity / community work etc... we all (many of my friends and family) contribute in some way (PTA, charity events, sponsoring children at orphanages, helping our domestics with schooling thier kids, buying clothes etc... we are not all the mindless racists that yearn for the "good old days", even if many would paint us with that brush).

You will find that there are literally thousands of Brits living in JHB and they mostly fit in quite well. Come and look for yourself, but I feel I need to say that for me if I did not have kids I would find it hard to leave here, but I do have kids and that is the overriding factor.

Good luck.


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