# Evidence for 'Centre of life' UK Family Permit



## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Hi guys,
Just signed up, been browsing since we started SS and found the site invaluable but the centre of life thing is the first stumbling point to scare us, and I was hoping for some discussion around my draft evidence list/appendix for FP application in ireland. I know nobody is certain of what this will turn out to entail and it is looking bad so far, but I guess I was just hoping for some more ideas, what you guys think.
I will post my whole appendix of evidence, it is primarily number 9 'Evidence of transferred centre of life' that I am looking for some opinions on, but I would also be so grateful if anyone had any corrections or advice even for the wording, or point out things I have missed out.

To summarise my situation firstly:
Me - USA
Husband - UK

Were living together (and have proof of this also) in the uk since early 2012, met on a student visa in UK. Married nov. 2012, my student visa running out meant I had to leave for US in January. He joined me in the US for 3 months up until september and have been living together in ireland since. Been in Ireland 7 and a half months now, both working full time, contracted 40+ hour weeks for 7 months. both have 7/8 payslips. Weren't planning on going home so soon necessarily (we are more concerned about being together and doing it properly than rushing back) but we are both becoming a bit depressed and quite simply want to go home if possible!

We have a 1 year lease, I have residency GNIB card and stamp 4EUFAM for 5 years, we have UK marriage certificate, proof of living together in the uk beforehand, shared bills from ireland (contract mobile, electric, internet) and joint irish bank account at same address with 3k+ euros earned from employment each month and payslips, tax documents to match. PRTB letter, etc.

The only thing that is stumping us is proving our centre of life is here..

Does anyone have any insight for people in our situation? (young, no kids, work all the time with conflicting schedules, no religious affiliation or gym/sport hobbies)
We wont have the suggested gym membership/church/PTA membership etc.
I believe that our 1 year lease, 24 month mobile contract and 12 month internet (which we are paying to get out of if we can leave) should be enough to show that our intentions and actions were of settling here permanently and having our 'centre of life' here, but I fear that UKBA will see it differently.

See section 9, I have listed everything I can think of that I have.
Any more suggestions?

Thank you thank you, this forum has been so helpful as a browser, I'm sure it will be as a poster too 

Stace.



> SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS:
> 
> 1.	Printed copy of application.
> 2.	Passport of Applicant Mrs xxxxxx (Passport Number) and copy.
> ...


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Was also gonna add a poster, email exchanges between staff members when I organised our christmas night out, thats the kind of thing that might help, right?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

If you can stay for 12 months, and try to get involved in community affairs and activities, maybe volunteering (despite your heavy workloads), that should help. Mobile contract is good, and you are earning good salaries in full-time jobs with contract. I think you stand a good chance, but Jrge tells us 90% of applications he has helped to submit this year have been turned down, so nothing is certain and they are extremely strict.


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Thank you for the advice Joppa, and thank you for taking the time to have a read.

I realise that our case might be a bit neater around the edges if we stayed a year and filled in the gaps, but it won't do any harm to try?

It truly is absurd, it's as if they were having a laugh about how they could add vague and ridiculous requirements. Someone said "let's make a gym membership and regular church attendance requirements for a laugh..... hold on...."

We rise at 6 am and 8 am, and get home at 4 and 8pm respectively. We go to bed at a reasonable time (husbands job is particularly laborious) and repeat the process the following day. Once every two or three weeks we both have a Saturday or Sunday off together, and we spend it at the park or in front of the tv, doing silly romantic things. Some nights after work or when I am off the next day we go for drinks and are always home at a reasonable time for husbands work next day. We work hard, eat well and save our money. That IS our life. Day in, day out in Dublin. How can they expect us to explain or prove that anymore than is possible?

Do you think it would be worth including a paragraph specifically attentive to this (a better worded version of above paragraph) in a cover letter? Is it worth addressing? I think as long as I am polite I can make it clear that I am aware of the requirement and this is my genuine, fully explained reasoning as to why we meet that requirement, albeit not in the obvious paper trail ways.

Or might this be a bad idea? I have seen success stories recently on forums and Facebook as well as a high level of refusals, but I have seen a few success stories with less going for them than us, and most of the refusals are because of people rushing/not having everything they possibly can have and seeming obviously transient.

A year makes as much sense to me as it does to you, but that's not a legal requirement. Hopefully with a well enough worded explanation of all the evidence we have given, and that it is as much as we can give, we may get it. If not, try after a year!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I wouldn't if I were you. It adds nothing to your application and smacks of making excuses or ridiculing Home Office requirement (you may think like that but it doesn't help to express it). As I have said, tired though you are, doing some voluntary work in a hospital or charity shop will provide a useful evidence of how integrated and committed you are to your life in Ireland and to the Irish society.
As I always say, work with Home Office, not against it.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,

I trust you do have a solid case, and should you apply now for an EEA-FP there's a good chance it might be approved. 

However, I also agree with Joppa that by just doing something extra, might help to make your application stronger.

FYI: I travel between three countries every two weeks (Canada-USA-UK), I work 80+ hours every week and yet when I'm home (Canada) I go to the local supermarket and help senior citizens to load their groceries in their cars, normally two hours. The store manager has already given me several letters expressing their gratitude for helping citizens (now some regulars get mad at me when I'm abroad  ) my point is: at least one hour of your spouse's time will make your application go further.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks guys I really appreciate the advice. I'll avoid 'explaining' centre of life in that case, but should I still include all the letters from friends etc and just have the heading 'evidence to meet centre of life requirements' in my appendix of evidence and leave it at that,not mention it in cover letters?



In a way i understand that it is unfair to abuse this method and i support the idea of being able to discriminate between the genuine couples and the chancers, it just seems such a lacklustre way of doing so that I feel compelled to explain endlessly! I won't though, I see exactly what you are saying Joppa. Wonder if it would be too late for husband to start looking for a few hours volunteering this weekend and get something saying so. Biometrics and document hand in is 2nd may, at which point we will have been here 222 days and working 210 of this days, I wonder if a last moment effort on the volunteering front might actually be damaging to the application? Make it too obvious?


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Are either of you aware if an eea fp application in ireland can be processed via the 'priority service' In Dublin? 
I noticed it is 127 euro, says 4-5 days processing time. Might this be possible/worth it?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Probably not, as EEA family permit is 'prioritised' already. This is what some other visa offices have said. Timeframe is 2-3 weeks at Dublin, but of course it may take more or less.


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Quick question;

Compiling evidence now for submission this week. I know I am including copies of passports/gnib card/marriage certificate and originals will be returned. All photos are printed from the computer and therefore I don't mind not being returned.

As far as utility bills/receipts/loyalty cards/bank statements/p60s/tax credit certificates etc go, do I need to include copies of these? or will these originals be returned to us? As we are sending them almost everything we have from our time here we are worried about what we will get back, as we may need it all in years to come to prove our time here.

What do you think? A lot of bills are pdf from the websites and I can print any time, but should we send copies of the 'originals' that we would need back?

Also, would you mind quickly scrutinising my evidence list when finished? 
I shall not post it just yet as it is loooooong!

Thanks again, hope everybody is having a good day


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

We had a long hard think about the centre of life, and we are including work rotas, work stock sheets created in free time, receipts for major purchases (tv, playstation 3), loyalty cards for take-aways, coffee shops, e-cig shop, gamestation (and a print out showing games bought and pre-orders made), taxi receipts, poster made for staff party and emails exchanged with staff and the venue where it was booked, pictures of me on the staff night out, emails with electric company regarding billing, emails with vodafone regarding another 24 month contract phone that was returned, cover letter sent when applying for irish residence (including statement of our intentions to become fully economically active residents in ireland, highlighting I got my residency based on our intentions).

Surely we are putting together a very strong case by now? Who knows. regardless of the outcome I doubt I'll get any feedback on how they viewed each piece of evidence which could have been handy info for others in the same boat.


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

To update - submitted application 2nd May. FP received 9th May.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Good. You did have a quite strong case, but as you state, there is no way of knowing what is enough evidence, as judgement is such a subjective matter.


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

We absolutely flooded them with evidence. I have no way of knowing whether or not it had any influence but we can take from it that it doesn't hurt to give too much. I hope anyone reading this wondering about centre of life takes my advice to do everything you can to meet the rules. Be patient and build evidence. We spent a long time brainstorming, every tiny paper trail should help but can't hurt.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,


Joppa said:


> Good. You did have a quite strong case, but as you state, there is no way of knowing what is enough evidence, as judgement is such a subjective matter.


Since our last meeting, all those SS rejected cases were "reviewed & revamped" accordingly, adding a Country specific immigration approach to each file. I can now confirm that all of them have been approved and our relocation unit is working with those families to help them with their move back to UK.

In a general note, we were able to compensate the lack of gym/church/social group(s) with work & community service commitments. We feel the language of the Freedom of Movement is to allow an easy economic transition among State Members, however family life should also be considered as it allows host State to enjoy the benefits of those EU National skills, integration and further contributions.

Our files for SS applicants now include, work schedules, several pictures, bank statements, utilities bills and any other piece of "tie-to" evidence we can provide.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## rkerbabie18 (Apr 22, 2014)

Jrge said:


> I can now confirm that all of them have been approved and our relocation unit is working with those families to help them with their move back to the uk


That sentence is fantastic. You are a star.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

Jrge said:


> In a general note, we were able to compensate the lack of gym/church/social group(s) with work & community service commitments.
> 
> Our files for SS applicants now include, work schedules, several pictures, bank statements, utilities bills and any other piece of "tie-to" evidence we can provide.
> 
> ...


Jrge, your comments are very insightful, could you please elaborate on the above ? Is it a case that having stronger work contract (permanent, full time, 40 hrs/wk at or above min. wage) helps avoid deeper scrutiny into CoL evidence (gym/library/social/clubs) ?

Also, what other 'tie-to' evidences can be useful ? 

cheers


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Yes, obviously a full-time job with strong integration into the local scene will help, so that you can say that your community involvement is through your work rather than your hobbies, interests or faith. 
About your work, apart from job contract, include such things as weekly work schedule, level of responsibility, contact with local clients etc.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

cheers Joppa, 

I've just started a short term contract tech support job and its really difficult to undertake regular outside activities like volunteering or clubs as there could be unscheduled overtime depending upon the needs of the company. Also, since its internal to the company, our clients are not external customers but internal users. Its a decent job with a chance to convert to permanent so I am working hard towards getting a permanent position and it might really help us demonstrate centre of life in another 3-4 months time.

There is a small but free onsite gym which I use 3-4 days a week but I am not sure if that counts as it is open to all staff. 

I am also struggling to find a reasonable solution to my flat in UK since renting it out would mean we don't have a place to return and not doing it might create a problem with proving center of life. Could you shed some light on what has worked for other people in similar situation. 

Me and wife can probably stay longer especially if I can manage to get permanent in 3 months time.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Assured shorthold tenancy is for a minimum of 6 months so you can get your property back just by notifying your tenant called Section 21 Notice. If it's done during the initial period, your tenant must leave at the end of 6 months, and if during periodic tenancy, at the end of the notice period (usually a month). So if you don't even have AST, Home Office will probably interpret that you haven't moved your centre of life from UK, as you want a place to stay on your frequent trips home.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

thanks agian Joppa, but wouldn't being in a permanent job and not having visited the uk sufficient (except for a week's holiday in 6 months maybe) ? 

What if its an investment property especially given the price growth in UK, wouldn't it make sense to leave it to capitalize on the investment gains in future ? Don't people have second homes in the countryside or sunny spanish coast that are left empty with occasional visits for summer ? 

What about the below acknowledgement from homeoffice (I am not yet allowed to post links so quoting the below from one of the other forums) about not being penalised for maintaining a UK home, even a council flat ? Are you aware of refusals for this very reason ? Was it the only material reason or one of the factors amongst others ? 



> In order to satisfy regulation 9(2)(c) of the Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2013, you have correctly identified that you will need to show that you have transferred the centre of your life to another EEA member state.
> 
> Regulation 9(3) lists factors to be taken into account when considering whether this has been achieved:
> 
> ...


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

But in other announcements, they have said that owning (not renting) a property in UK and leaving it empty may be one of the factors that counts against having moved the centre of life.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

that sounds like typical response from them .. also found something else, if you recall one of your previous discussions (I quote it below), it seems quite logical to me how the UK property is used should not matter. 

Is there a change in this position ? What other ways can I justify not renting it ? 

Are there people with any examples of SS refusals or approvals that involved the UK citizen owning a property in UK while they were exercising treaty rights ? It would be interesting to see how that impacts the application.



Jrge said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was a centre of discussion a while back. Real estate investment(s) in home country shouldn't prevent any EU National from returning back home with their non-EU spouse under SS. Regardless of the economic activity you do with it (lease, rent, let, share, vacant, etc), you invest your monies any way you legally can, and on a way that benefits you and your family members.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

As I said it's ONE of the criteria they may use, so it's possible for someone with property in UK not rented out and still qualifies under Surinder Singh. But if the CUMULATIVE effect of various factors is negative, then you can be turned down. As there is no definitive list of those factors, it boils down to how ECO interprets your overall situation. Even after repeated requests under Freedom of Information, Home Office has steadfastly refused to disclose internal memoranda about how they reach a decision about centre of life issue in Surinder Singh cases.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

ok, I got it .. the issue could be that if there 4 minor +ves but if property is deemed to be one major -ve then it might lead to overall -ve on the application.

However, while reviewing the VAF-5 form, I realise there are lot of unnecessary financial questions, could I simply state 'Not required under article 2004/38/EC' in the questions around where do you intend to live and who owns this property, is that likely to be refused ? 

As per EU rules, none of this information can be asked so its definitely not something I need to provide (ofcourse, they can completely disregard EU rules as you have mentioned several times before).


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Cant be asked for from EU citizens, can and is asked from UK citizens wanting to use that route under SS.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It's a bit of a grey area but the fact is Home Office ask those questions and if you don't answer them, they can make up their mind based on the information given and can refuse you. Until UK is taken to the European court and found in breach of EU law on Surinder Singh, nothing will change and they continue to ask those questions and make a decision based on all available evidence.


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## tyrex9000 (May 3, 2014)

thanks _shel & Joppa, I guess will have to bite the bullet and decide on one thing and stick with it understanding the risk .. given there is no definitive way to understand their logic .. sigh !


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