# Iguala and Central America



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

For reasons that escape me and anyone with even a modicum of knowledge about Southern Mexico, the moderators decided to cut off discussion on anotehr thread about the unbelievable and disgusting mass murders and attrocities in and around Iguala, Guerrero. The thread on Iguala was one of the most popular in the history of this fórum. Over 200 responses and over 2,000 hits among participants. Diablita asks what Iguala has to do with Central America and since I live in Chiapas - historically a part of Central America and even poorer than out-of-control Guerrero just up the road, I have an opinión on that subject. Iguala, a place we just recently visited driving from San Cristobal de Las Casas to Lake Chapala - a superficially atractive small city - is representative of all that is wrong in Mexico and adjacent Central America. Lawlessness, absolute corruption from the ground up to the highest authorities, rampant crime without retribution or enforced rules or law, a populace cowed by an inabiity to entrust anyone in any capacity whether neighbors or people with authority from top to bottom. The end of civility. The reason Mexico and the U.S are being flooded with desperate Central American refugees,, Dangerous drugs flowing north from Central America and Mexico and dangerous weapons flowing south from the U.S to Latin America to eventually destroy what civility there is left. 

As was said long ago, "Poor Mexico, so far from God; so close to the United States." Central America is at Mexico´s doorstep and that of the United States - no walls - only ungoverned jungles and, easily crossed narrow rivers - and artificial boundaries set by people long dead don´t change that. Guerrero is right there as is Central America and these places will come calling n Mexico and up in the U.S. - believe me. The train known as La Bestia is on the track. and chuuging along. Ignore it at your peril.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> For reasons that escape me and anyone with even a modicum of knowledge about Southern Mexico, the moderators decided to cut off discussion on another thread about the unbelievable and disgusting mass murders and attrocities in and around Iguala, Guerrero. The thread on Iguala was one of the most popular in the history of this fórum. Over 200 responses and over 2,000 hits among participants. …


I cut off discussion in that thread because some participants had descended into personal attacks and character assassination. Feel free to start afresh with the topic, but please keep the discussion focused on the subject and not on opinions about the character or motivations of fellow posters.


----------



## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

i am shocked the tread got closed, but its a world event happening now, i first hand have seen protesters here in Acapulco, they block the main tourist strip, i got stuck in this traffic, cars can not move, my crappy car over heated in the traffic, and local police helped push my car out of traffic


----------



## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

Notwithstanding that explanation (and for the record I'm not worried in the slightest about being called ‘ignorant’, ‘foolish’ and ‘uninformed) I suspect some posters find it more comfortable to look at the Iguala atrocity in isolation, and are content to limit the blame to corrupt local officials and cartel members. Linking the attack to the bigger picture of decades of corruption, deaths, torture, disappearances and violence right across Central America – and the mainly external factors that created this environment - is something that’s clearly difficult and uncomfortable for some.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


SirRon said:



i am shocked the tread got closed, but its a world event happening now, i first hand have seen protesters here in Acapulco, they block the main tourist strip, i got stuck in this traffic, cars can not move, my crappy car over heated in the traffic, and local police helped push my car out of traffic

Click to expand...

_ In Chiapas, one tries to go from one point to another these days at one´s peril. I guess the only thing that excedes the inconvenience of having been delayed upon one´s route from this to that point is having been arrested, incarcerated, assasisnated, incinerated, chopped into pieces and placed in bags by crooked cops and their associates in which to be floated down rivers decomposing along the way never to be seen again all because some among them might have disturbed the locally corrupted order controlled by perhaps the most despicable criminalo n the planet. 

This place in which I am a bona fide citizen, stinks of moral decay. It makes me sick to say this but it is true and I am saddened-


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

buzzbar said:


> Linking the attack to the bigger picture of decades of corruption, deaths, torture, disappearances and violence right across Central America – and the mainly external factors that created this environment - is something that’s clearly difficult and uncomfortable for some.


My view is the Iguala incident is not linked to "disappearances and violence right across Central America." 

There are some similarities with what we're seeing in Mexico and in Central American countries, however: corruption is rampant; the concept of democracy hasn't been wholly endorsed; the concept of the rule of law is not widely supported; the influence of criminal enterprises (which undertakes, for the most part, the "disappearances") is greater than that of the federal governments; and the poor have gotten poorer and rich richer which creates perpetual discontent.

I think understanding what happened in Iguala is simpler, than dragging-in past or present Central American issues. Iguala may just have been student actions and a local government's response gone horribly wrong. Nothing more than that- except, of course, the loss of life.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

I saw some photos of the demonstration in Mexico City where some overturned some Bimbo trucks and set fire to it along with a Federal Police truck and some tried to ram the front wooden doors of the Presidential Palace but couldn´t get it open so set fire to it last night about 8:30.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Iguala reflects the l lawlessness , impunity and corruption of the country.
There were more incidences of violence by the police in Oaxaca near Tuxtepec and 3 days ago in San Baltazar Chichicapam where a mayor and his cousins started this one.
Where do the police and mayors get the idea they can get away beating and shooting people?
With all the new ways of communication these guys are going to be exposed so why are they so sure they can get away with it? It is mind bending.


----------



## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

Agree….I find it impossible to view the atrocity as simply a “response gone horribly wrong” as Longford describes it. I see it as yet another specific consequence of the lawlessness, corruption, and impunity that Citlali cites. It will be interesting to see how the national debate on Iguala develops and whether bigger questions are asked about these three national characteristics and the ways that Mexico could work towards promoting the attitudinal change that needs to be present before any judicial and political reform can take place.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> Iguala reflects the l lawlessness , impunity and corruption of the country.
> There were more incidences of violence by the police in Oaxaca near Tuxtepec and 3 days ago in San Baltazar Chichicapam where a mayor and his cousins started this one.
> Where do the police and mayors get the idea they can get away beating and shooting people?
> With all the new ways of communication these guys are going to be exposed so why are they so sure they can get away with it? It is mind bending.


They're stupid people living in the recent past when it was possible to get away with this kind of unexcuseable behavior, utterly convinced of their right to do so!


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> They're stupid people living in the recent past when it was possible to get away with this kind of unexcuseable behavior, utterly convinced of their right to do so!


Was it only in the past that people got away with this? I don't have any first hand knowledge, but my impression is that collusion between the cartels and local officials continues to be a common occurrence in many areas in Mexico today.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Was it only in the past that people got away with this? I don't have any first hand knowledge, but my impression is that collusion between the cartels and local officials continues to be a common occurrence in many areas in Mexico today.


I meant that since they had been doing things like that for years (including the recent past), they thought they could continue to get away with their despicable behavior.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think there is also a disconnect when the attorney general refuses to enter the questions answers because he has enough or is tired... By the way that is the arrogant attitude the MP has throughout the various offices..


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Didn't the gov't kill a large number of student protestors right before the 1968 Mexico City Olympics? Is Mexico ripe for a new revolution or will all this blow over?


----------



## manuel dexterity (Oct 2, 2014)

vantexan said:


> Didn't the gov't kill a large number of student protestors right before the 1968 Mexico City Olympics? Is Mexico ripe for a new revolution or will all this blow over?


Yes, the infamous Tlatelolco massacre. Ordered by the President via his proxy the Secretary of Gobernacíon, Luís Echevarría who was the benefit of the _dedazo_ and became the next president. General García Barragan, the Secretary of Defense at the time and also a main player in the massacre was a cutthroat SOB. Of course, instead of being punished, they were rewarded.


----------



## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Mexico*



TundraGreen said:


> Was it only in the past that people got away with this? I don't have any first hand knowledge, but my impression is that collusion between the cartels and local officials continues to be a common occurrence in many areas in Mexico today.


It would seem to be that many of the officials and mayors only have their posts because the criminals are behind them and once in power do not have any possibility of extricating themselves without being murdered plus their nearest and dearest.
In the case of the mayor of iguala and his missus, it is impossible that those above didn't know of the wife's connection with the narcos. It only took a nanosecond for the couple to disappear and that part of the truth to come out.
What to me still seems inexplicable is the barbarity. I can imagine them being beaten up and left miles from anywhere. Could it have been done to cow the rest of the population? In which case it has all gone wrong for those that did such a heinous deed.


----------



## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

Let’s assume this ‘despicable behavior’ or ‘response gone horribly wrong’ didn’t take place – that there was no massacre. You can only assume the status quo would have continued…….which reportedly involves:

A person being elected as Mayor with no political experience whatsoever - his occupation was a seller of straw hats
The run for office resulting from him approaching both PRI and PRD for their support, and receiving it from PRD after making substantial financial contributions to the party
A Mayor’s wife whose family controls drug trafficking in Guerrero
A member of that family heading a cocaine distribution network that starts in Colombia and Venezuela, passes through Mexico and reaches Atlanta, Georgia
One of the first moves when elected Mayor being to establish a pact between the Beltran Leyva cartel and state and local police, including a 'cleansing operation' to stop street level crime in order to facilitate drug trafficking and distribution
No action being taken by anyone over this - not the federal government, not the state government, not the PRD who, as Justina says, must all surely have been aware of it 
Putting the massacre aside, how on earth was such a situation able to come about? As long as Iguala is seen as an issue of an individual’s behavior, I don’t think there’ll be any change.

I reckon discussion over any solution will have to at least start by looking holistically at the many strands that need to be pulled together, including: 


A voracious USA appetite for narcotics that hasn’t diminished in over forty years
The history of failed USA foreign policy in Central America and the negative effects of the significant USA role in the region over at least the last 50 years 
A war on drugs that is universally agreed to have been a failure and has only led to violence, corruption and oppression in Mexico and other countries but continues on, characterised by a military approach and a significant US military presence
In particular, the Merida Initiative that has poured millions of dollars of military aid into Mexico with little oversight, militarising police and strengthening the armed forces, whose support for the protection of citizens and the rule of law is questionable
Current and past USA administrations failing to enact comprehensive immigration reforms 
Historical reasons that have led to a general tolerance of lawlessness and corruption by Mexico society
A gun culture in USA that has aided in arming the cartels
The consequences of a significant proportion of the USA viewing Mexico and several Central American countries as only either a drug war battleground or a source of undesirable migrants
Plenty more you could add to the list, but if the reaction to the Iguala massacre is limited to a personal or local level, or even a national level, I believe there won’t be any positive changes that will take place.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Justina said:


> What to me still seems inexplicable is the barbarity. I can imagine them being beaten up and left miles from anywhere. Could it have been done to cow the rest of the population? In which case it has all gone wrong for those that did such a heinous deed.


Firstly, and it's not because of your remarks, but the discussion has, once again, veered, at least partially off-topic (i.e., the connection between what happened in Iguala and Central America). So, since that's been the drift of the discussion, I'll move in that direction (not linking to problems in Central America).

Secondly, I'm not convinced that what the AG says happened, happened that way. I'm not convinced that the taped "confessions" are anything more than forced confessions. I hope, for the sake of the families and friends of the disappeared students, however, that the report is accurate so that they have some measure of closure, but, at this point .... I'm also not convinced that the Mayor and/or his wife ordered the execution of the students. 

There have been published reports speculating that the students, when they hijacked busses to travel out-of-their way from Tixtla to Iguala ... hijacked the busses which had, in their undercarriages, drugs which were the property of the narco terrorists and that their demise (the students) was the result of the hijackings and "payback" by the narco terrorists more it was because the Mayor or his wife ordered it.

I also don't discount that those in power, narco terrorists and municipal leaders, wanted to "teach" the "students" a" lesson" because of the disruptions and/or violent actions previously caused by them in the region.

There are some political ramifications as the result of this incident - which aren't related to Central America: The PRD in Mexico is linked at the hip to all sorts of allegations of corruption -in Iguala, in Guerrero, in Michoacán ... nationwide. Voters in many parts of the country abandoned the PRI in 2000 and elected a President from the PAN. PRD, however, has been dominant in many of the poorer states such as Guerrero. We're still early in the six-year term of President Peña, but I'm interested in seeing how or if the electorate holds the PRD responsible for what happened in Iguala.


----------



## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Corruption*



buzzbar said:


> Let’s assume this ‘despicable behavior’ or ‘response gone horribly wrong’ didn’t take place – that there was no massacre. You can only assume the status quo would have continued…….which reportedly involves:
> 
> A person being elected as Mayor with no political experience whatsoever - his occupation was a seller of straw hats
> The run for office resulting from him approaching both PRI and PRD for their support, and receiving it from PRD after making substantial financial contributions to the party
> ...


That was a fantastic comment and yes one must assume that the govt is trying to keep it as local as possible, although given the worldwide attention it has received, it has gone out of their hands.
As to drugs in Mexico and how more and more States inthe US are legalising marijuana, I suppose the problem is with hard drugs, which are possibly easier to pack into a plane or boat than hash.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

citlali said:


> Where do the police and mayors get the idea they can get away beating and shooting people?


Yes. And let's not forget the execution of 3 apparently innocent-of-any-crime Americans in Matamoros last week. No connection here with Central America, either ... IMO.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

By the way in the Oaxaca cases these were PRI mayor so I do not think one party is better than another.. most politicians are in for the money and they have no problem floating from one party to another as long as there is something in it for them.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

This whole episode has made it very clear to me that the Mexico has no hope of doing anything about the violence until they clean up the rampant links between the criminals and politicians. They could make a lot of progress by completely ignoring the cartels and focusing on finding every politician with a financial or family link to crime, and putting them in jail.


----------



## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> This whole episode has made it very clear to me that the Mexico has no hope of doing anything about the violence until they clean up the rampant links between the criminals and politicians. They could make a lot of progress by completely ignoring the cartels and focusing on finding every politician with a financial or family link to crime, and putting them in jail.


amen


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> This whole episode has made it very clear to me that the Mexico has no hope of doing anything about the violence until they clean up the rampant links between the criminals and politicians. They could make a lot of progress by completely ignoring the cartels and focusing on finding every politician with a financial or family link to crime, and putting them in jail.


Great idea! However, first they'd have to build a lot of new prisons.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Difficult as it is for me to defend many public officials and government employees in Mexico ... in all honesty, we need to acknowledge that in the face of the power of the cartels/terrorists ... the most honest official can easily be corrupted. Directing attention to breaking the cartels should be and needs to be the focus.


----------



## manuel dexterity (Oct 2, 2014)

The government has always been corrupt and changing that will take a miracle, IOW ain't gonna happen. The cartels take advantage of this. They have the resources and power to corrupt to a degree unseen prior to the present situation. Some will argue that while the demand for illegal drugs continues, so will the drug trade. There is no arguing that fact. People are going to get high. What can be done is to remove the illegality. You can control what is legal. Until prohibition is ended nothing is going to change.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

citlali said:


> There were more incidences of violence by the police in Oaxaca near Tuxtepec and 3 days ago in San Baltazar Chichicapam where a mayor and his cousins started this one.


Read more:

17 shot: Oaxaca Mayor orders citizens fired upon, he is now a fugitive


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Longford said:


> Difficult as it is for me to defend many public officials and government employees in Mexico ... in all honesty, we need to acknowledge that in the face of the power of the cartels/terrorists ... the most honest official can easily be corrupted. Directing attention to breaking the cartels should be and needs to be the focus.


Calderon tried to break the cartels with his recent "war" and only made the unimaginable violence proliferate while, at the same time, creating even more chaotic conditions in Mexico and Central America. Was North America (which includes Central America down to the present day Panama/Colombia line ) improved by U.S. subversión of supposed civil progress (as defined by the reader´s moral compass) in Central America by supporting corrupt and repressive dictatorial regimes for many years? 

As for corruption of "honest" officials in the face of cartel and other terrorist violence, despite what we thought we had learned from old Steve McQueen movies, the choice of silver or lead for not only oneself but also one´s extended family, is a persuasive argument for joining in the efforts of the terrorists - especially since one can trust no one up or down the line or, for that matter, passing in the street.

As most Mexicans have learned over many years, the best thing to do is keep a low profile because in a land with massive and unimpeded corruption, unchecked and almost unspeakable violence and almost across the board impunity, it is best to mistrust all.

Reminds me of when I was riding a train from the French border to Barcelona back in the 60s when Franco was still in power. I was in a coach cabin filled with Spanish locals and made a somewhat innocent but deroguatory remark about the Franco regime. You should have seen that cabin empty out with the speed of lightning. I was later told by one of those passengers, to never, ever do that in Spain. You never knew who is sitting adjacent to you in that cabin or anywhere else for that matter.

Where are Yul Brenner and _The Magnificent Seven _when you need them? Where they always were; down at the Ritz Theatre curing the ills of the planet and slaughtering the "bad guys" over a bag of your popcorn, a Coke and some of those old Hot Devil candies.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> Calderon tried to break the cartels with his recent "war" and only made the unimaginable violence proliferate while, at the same time, creating even more chaotic conditions in Mexico and Central America. Was North America (which includes Central America down to the present day Panama/Colombia line ) improved by U.S. subversión of supposed civil progress (as defined by the reader´s moral compass) in Central America by supporting corrupt and repressive dictatorial regimes for many years?


The "war" started at the end of the Zedillo 6-year term of office and continued through the Fox years, when, if published reports I've read are accurate, the number of deaths were about the same as seen during the Calderon years. Calderon was just more honest/open about it IMO. Whatever the USA did or didn't do in Central America during the Reagan or other years is, as I see it, irrelevant to what happened in Iguala. Maybe make a connection with Marxist movements worldwide and how governments, local and/or federal, dealt with them to supress them and you might have something which seems to me to be a bit more relevant.


----------



## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

wow its amazing what is happening here in acapulco right now


more protesting blocked airport and more

http://www.novedadesacapulco.mx/acapulco

link to one of local newspapers here: 

have a lot


----------



## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

I was listening to carmen aristegui on mvs this lunchtime (your morning), and a reporter was talking of the demo in the DF at the weekend and he insisted that the burning ofthedoor of the National Palace was done by a lone man inside the metal framework erected around the entrances. 
Mexico is not unknown for its fabrication of situations. It gave the President a justification for chuntering on about violence while he flies off to China to reorganise the deal with the Chinese and Salinas de Gortari's brother in law for producing the train to Queretaro without it being set out to tender. Heigh ho.


----------

