# Protests to come, according to PP official.



## Guest (Nov 17, 2011)

I found this article from El Pais in English shocking: 

_*A top Popular Party (PP) official warned on Tuesday that there would be "a lot of protests" once prime ministerial candidate Mariano Rajoy "announces what needs to be done to get the country back on its feet."*

The statement, made by Castilla-La Mancha regional premier María Dolores de Cospedal during a campaign swing in Ceuta, was another sign re-enforcing the Socialists' argument that social and job cuts are on their way if the PP wins on Sunday. Rajoy has been vague as to where he would make cutbacks. "There needs to be an austerity plan because we all know that we can't go out on the streets every day and spend more than what we have," she said.

Meanwhile, Socialist candidate Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba called on party supporters in A Coruña to vote because the country is "in a state of emergency."_

Apart from billboards and the occasional meeting here or there, it's almost like the candidates aren't even campaigning up here. Being from New Hampshire where we have the "first in the nation primary" and candidates essentially have to go door to door, I find it fascinating and a bit insulting that neither the politicians nor their parties seem to even be trying. 

OH and I both work in education. He's a substitute and we're definitely feeling the fact that they're either not permitting teachers to go on leave _or_ they're simply not filling substitutions. I have a grant, and I'm praying it doesn't get cut next year. Our regional education department, once governed by the PSOE is now PP run and "word from the inside" is that a lot has changed. 

I pray that people get out and vote. I pray that the _indignados_ get the heck out of their tents to vote - I don't care if it's for the "I like puppies and tea time" party, just as long as they don't stay at home or vote "_en blanco_." 

Can you tell I'm nervous? I'm the one who will be sitting at home on Sunday night with a big bottle of _orujo_ just in case.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It's called 'getting in your defense before the s*** hits the fan ' ! They are covering themselves before they really find out what the state of the finances are. 
Got to agree , you wouldn't think that there was an election aroud here !


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

[quote


> =_*gus-lopez*_ They are covering themselves before they really find out what the state of the finances are.


[/QUOTE]
???
The state of the finances are already known. That became apparent after the _municipales_. The state chests of treasure are already known to be empty, although the PP might well claim to be shocked when they open them up.

Elections are not fought door to door here; I don't think they ever have been. Different way of doing things I suppose, but I have never seen or heard of candidates, or their representatives, knocking on doors. It is not a very effective way to use time anyway IMO.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Like it or not, the election result will reflect what the majority want. If people in a democracy can't be bothered to vote, they must accept the outcome without complaint.
And, as Dr. Johnson sagely pointed out almost three hundred years ago,' If the poor really wanted to overthrow the rich, they could. There are many more of them. The reason they will not is that they are divided amongst themselves.'
I certainly don't want the PP to win but the result is irrelevant in many ways as both major parties would be compelled to follow the same path of austerity until debt and deficit are reduced.
Until someone comes up with a plan to fund the much-needed programme for growth that unfortunately is the case.
We can complain all we like and clutch at straws and false hopes but that will achieve nothing.
I note that some prestigious Institute has offered a prize of £250k to any economist who can come up with a viable plan to enable Britain to leave the EU.
Sad that the prize won't be awarded to the economist who comes up with a plan to fund growth without alarming the markets and sending bond yields beyond the sustaiinable levels.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> [quote



Elections are not fought door to door here; I don't think they ever have been. Different way of doing things I suppose, but I have never seen or heard of candidates, or their representatives, knocking on doors. It is not a very effective way to use time anyway IMO.[/QUOTE]

As one who has spent many hours and much shoe leather doing just that, I can only agree.
For national elections it's the media that sways votes.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Elections are not fought door to door here; I don't think they ever have been. Different way of doing things I suppose, but I have never seen or heard of candidates, or their representatives, knocking on doors. It is not a very effective way to use time anyway IMO.


We've got cars with loudspeakers driving round the village all day playing intensely irritating music and urging people to go to the big campaign meetings. Every time one goes past, the donkey in the field opposite starts honking. It's driving me nuts.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've been invited to our local fin de campana meeting tonight but I think it will be more like a wake.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Every time one goes past, the donkey in the field opposite starts honking. It's driving me nuts.


It's obviously doing the same to the Donkey & he's making it known.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think it's more important to have all the issues frequently and openly debated in all of the media. People aren't stupid and make up their minds freely on the basis of what they see and hear and more importantly their experiences and prejudices.
Everyone with a vote should use it. If you don't you have little grounds for complaining about the result and the policies that follow from it.
There is a bright side even for the losers...which is that we live in a pluralist society so must however reluctantly accept outcomes we don't approve of and that we are fortunate to have elections in the first place.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

From The Guardian:


The Spanish economy seems to be flat-lining according to some recent estimates, perhaps with no further growth this year. Unemployment of 21.5% and youth unemployment of 46% are hardly signs of health.

Spain has over $640bn of debt, which equates to 67% of GDP. Hardly in Italy's territory of 120% of GDP, but Spanish bond yields rose above the magic 6% figure today, and Spain needs to get another, larger, bond issue away in the coming weeks. One leading European bank has now said that Spain "is on the radar screen" of default alongside Italy. Should Spain default then this could have serious knock-on effects. They owe over $235bn to French and German banks, and the former are already heavily exposed to Italy.

A further problem, not publicly acknowledged is that the "Fondo", Spain's national reserve pension fund, has well over 90% of its assets invested in Spanish government bonds. Thus, its risks and assets are pointing in the same direction, rather than hedging each other. Sovereign default could trigger a major collapse in the value of pension and/or social security funds just when they are most needed.


So...Rajoy's plans for dealing with this real-life real-time problem are...?????


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have friends in their 50's, who claim they have never voted and never will, there are many here who do not. 

When asked why, they reply, "When Franco was in power we didn't have to vote, why should we now."

Me, I always vote, whenever I am able to and I have voted for all parties, even the Greens. I have only once met a politician, whom I respected, and that was David Steele a true gentleman, the others struck me as being very shallow people.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> We've got cars with loudspeakers driving round the village all day playing intensely irritating music and urging people to go to the big campaign meetings. Every time one goes past, the donkey in the field opposite starts honking. It's driving me nuts.


But have you identified whether the donkey honks in support or with derision according to which party it is?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But have you identified whether the donkey honks in support or with derision according to which party it is?


Maybe it is the local PP candidato??


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it is the local PP candidato??


Might even be a relative!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> But have you identified whether the donkey honks in support or with derision according to which party it is?


He's definitely a Democrat.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> He's definitely a Democrat.


Don't Americans call them "asses" or they the other things that pour out cr*p although maybe I'm getting confused with republicans.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Rajoy doubts on state aid for sick raises Sociaists' ire · ELPAÍS.com in English

So the PP will scrap the carers' allowance recently introduced under the Ley de Dependencia. "No law is viable if there is no money to pay for it". I would put money on having to pay to visit the doctor this time next year (if they haven't closed the clinics).


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ???
> The state of the finances are already known. That became apparent after the _municipales_. The state chests of treasure are already known to be empty, although the PP might well claim to be shocked when they open them up.
> 
> Elections are not fought door to door here; I don't think they ever have been. Different way of doing things I suppose, but I have never seen or heard of candidates, or their representatives, knocking on doors. It is not a very effective way to use time anyway IMO.


I didn't mean they should be going door to door, I just mean that apart from posters I'm not seeing *ANYTHING.* I saw one PSOE _miting_ poster today, but it sure seems like the only political event I've seen in the immediate area. There's not even annoying "Vote for us!" sound cars going around!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> I didn't mean they should be going door to door, I just mean that apart from posters I'm not seeing *ANYTHING.* I saw one PSOE _miting_ poster today, but it sure seems like the only political event I've seen in the immediate area. There's not even annoying "Vote for us!" sound cars going around!


Oh. As you mentioned door to door in your original post I thought that's what you were referring to.
Actually, I haven't seen much going on in the street, but on the radio and telly it seems to have taken over.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oh. As you mentioned door to door in your original post I thought that's what you were referring to.
> Actually, I haven't seen much going on in the street, but on the radio and telly it seems to have taken over.


I'm sorry. This is what happens when I post angry before my first coffee.
I should've been clearer. I don't think literally going door to door is the best strategy. However, actually trying to sell your ideas and getting the 'eck out of your posh apartment to shake a few hands and kiss a few babies is probably a good idea.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

halydia said:


> I'm sorry. This is what happens when I post angry before my first coffee.
> I should've been clearer. I don't think literally going door to door is the best strategy. However, actually trying to sell your ideas and getting the 'eck out of your posh apartment to shake a few hands and kiss a few babies is probably a good idea.


Yes, the babies bit does help to differentiate them from the JW lot.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2011)

_Ay, por Dios._ I'm just going to give up.

I'm trying to say it feels like the vast majority of candidates, at least where I am, have just been sitting at home during this election period. I find that insulting to the voters. Heck, has the PP even launched a serious party platform or said anything concrete?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> _Ay, por Dios._ I'm just going to give up.
> 
> I'm trying to say it feels like the vast majority of candidates, at least where I am, have just been sitting at home during this election period. I find that insulting to the voters. Heck, has the PP even launched a serious party platform or said anything concrete?


The PP has been heavily criticised for their campaign, as I think you know, precisely for that reason. Rajoy hasn't given concrete details of anything that's in the electoral programme, hence Cospedal's remarks that you opened the thread with.
The thing is, Rajoy has been very shrewd. He's going to win the elections without having outlined his electoral programme. Any "extra" info he gives might take away votes. If he says nothing he's going to win. It's amazing that he's done a whole electoral campaign saying things like _we need to sort out the economy,_ and _education needs to improve._ But he has and it's worked. 
Both candidates have travelled the length and breadth of the country, and several times. Here's the latest which sees events in the País Vasco, Santander and Cantabria, Madrid and Galicia.
El candidato socialista se centra en Madrid y País Vasco y Rajoy en Cantabria y Galicia | Intereconomía | 643950

It's true that everything seems to have been concentrated in these big meetings where the candidates preach to their followers, but Halydia, the election was won long before the campaign had started, so Rajoy has done what anyone would have done in his position - played it safe.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

PS Halydia 
OH has had 3 or 4 weeks work so far, I can't remember. This week he's had lumbago so perhaps it's a good thing he wasn't working.A friend of his was given a part time substitution for the rest of the academic year last week. The childen hadn't had a teacher since the* start of the school year* in the second week of September. Why? One only has to presume because Aguirre decided against it because there are more than enough teachers to cover that post.

Hope you're managing up there


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

There is no law, rule or precedent that says that politicians have to campaign in a specific way.
I have fought more local, national and European elections than I've had dinners this month so I think I know what I'm talking about not only in the UK context.
Door-knocking and kissing babies is a waste of time and often counterproductive in the age of twenty-four hour news. The important thing if you want to be elected - and that is what it's all about -is to get your message across to as many people as possible as cost-effectively as possible. Politicians, like golfers, footballers and purchasers of lottery tickets, want to win.
Rajoy's campaign resembles that of Mrs. Thatcher in 1979. When pressed for details of her economic policy she famously replied:'We'll know when we've seen the books'.
Rajoy has seen the books but he doesn't want to make public what he has read in them. 
The frightening fact is that no politician can at this moment pursue a policy independent of the dictates of the financial markets. Spain's borrowing is already at dangerously unaffordable levels. 
If Spain or any other country can't borrow, pensions and wages can't be paid. That is an unescapable fact.
This election is in many ways a sham. What the UK decides to do about the ECB and the FTT is more important to Spain than whether Rajoy, Rubalcala or Fernando Torres is the next PM of Spain.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS Halydia
> OH has had 3 or 4 weeks work so far, I can't remember. This week he's had lumbago so perhaps it's a good thing he wasn't working.A friend of his was given a part time substitution for the rest of the academic year last week. The childen hadn't had a teacher since the* start of the school year* in the second week of September. Why? One only has to presume because Aguirre decided against it because there are more than enough teachers to cover that post.
> 
> Hope you're managing up there


That's really rough. OH just finished a 6 week substitution and was said he has _paro_ until December 21st. After that, to begin to _cobrar_ again he has to be _dado de alta_ at least one day. He's hysterical, but I'm thankful I have my grant for us to survive on - that is, if the new government doesn't cut my program. 

They're doing very strange things with part time substitutions right now. I'm seeing a lot of 1/3 time posts - absolutely miserable for the person who has to go to school and give 6 hours of class and earn accordingly. Well, they're earning experience at least. 

Truth be told, I *don't* like what I'm seeing in education at the moment. I truly fear what's to come. 

Big thoughts and  to you guys in the middle of the Madrid madness. Every time Mrs. Aguirre comes across the TV screen, _me da asco._


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The PP has been heavily criticised for their campaign, as I think you know, precisely for that reason. Rajoy hasn't given concrete details of anything that's in the electoral programme, hence Cospedal's remarks that you opened the thread with.
> The thing is, Rajoy has been very shrewd. He's going to win the elections without having outlined his electoral programme. Any "extra" info he gives might take away votes. If he says nothing he's going to win. It's amazing that he's done a whole electoral campaign saying things like _we need to sort out the economy,_ and _education needs to improve._ But he has and it's worked.
> Both candidates have travelled the length and breadth of the country, and several times. Here's the latest which sees events in the País Vasco, Santander and Cantabria, Madrid and Galicia.
> El candidato socialista se centra en Madrid y País Vasco y Rajoy en Cantabria y Galicia | Intereconomía | 643950
> ...


I'm fascinated by the fact that people have seemingly thrown in the towel and accepted everything. I truly don't understand how Rajoy is getting away with such vague statements.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I'm fascinated by the fact that people have seemingly thrown in the towel and accepted everything. I truly don't understand how Rajoy is getting away with such vague statements.


But what can people do? If the majority wish to have a PP Government then that's what will happen. It's not a question of 'throwing in the towel and accepting everything'...by 'everything' I'm guessing you mean the very likely PP victory. I prefer to call it facing facts.
You would have to be extremely disinterested or an ostrich not to have noticed that scarcely six months ago PP swept to victory in the Municipal elections. So as opinion polls show you could put money on a victory on Sunday and also in the spring regional elections.
Most politicians get away with making 'extremely vague statements'. That's partly because if they have any brains they will know that they are unlikely to be able to keep any specific promises. 
They can't win: make specific promises and they get accused of offering pie in the sky to bribe voters.
Say nothing concrete and they are accused of being evasive.
I am not happy about a PP victory, far from it. I didn't enjoy being ruled by Mrs. Thatcher and I don't suppose you enjoyed being governed by both Bushes. But in a pluralist society and a democracy however flawed we obey the wishes of the majority.
Politicians are not superhuman. They are ordinary Joes and Janes like you and me. Some are sincere, some are corrupt, some are clever, some are stupid. Just like the rest of us.
As I keep repeating, it is really irrelevant who wins on Sunday. What is more important for the future of Spain is what Angela Merkel decides to do about the ECB and Eurobonds. Her meeting in Berlin with David Cameron is actually going to be of more consequence in the real world.
The markets matter more than majorities.
And not one single party or individual has proposed a scheme which would free Spain and other states from the grip of the markets over its finances. Until some such feasible plan is on the table, party differences don't matter jack squit.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I am getting the impression that most posters on this thread would prefer the PSOE to win. I'm struggling to work out why.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I am getting the impression that most posters on this thread would prefer the PSOE to win. I'm struggling to work out why.


When they apologise for closing your local health centre, there is a chance they might actually mean it?

Both parties are committed to austerity measures but the PP I'm sure have a lot of other nasty things up their sleeve too. The are closely allied with the Catholic Church and and other extreme right-wing groups currently lurking behind the scenes.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> But what can people do? If the majority wish to have a PP Government then that's what will happen. It's not a question of 'throwing in the towel and accepting everything'...by 'everything' I'm guessing you mean the very likely PP victory. I prefer to call it facing facts.


I'll be interested in seeing what the voter turnout is. I've heard a number of comments from friends and colleagues saying about considering not voting. We had a heated debate at the lunch table about voting "_en blano_" as well. 




> You would have to be extremely disinterested or an ostrich not to have noticed that scarcely six months ago PP swept to victory in the Municipal elections. So as opinion polls show you could put money on a victory on Sunday and also in the spring regional elections.


Mary, I'm currently seeing the consequences of the recent municipal and autonomous elections. The Basque nationalist parties saw a huge increase and the PP swept to power here in Cantabria. Then again, Cantabria is a pretty sure bet for the PP anyhow. 



> As I keep repeating, it is really irrelevant who wins on Sunday. What is more important for the future of Spain is what Angela Merkel decides to do about the ECB and Eurobonds. Her meeting in Berlin with David Cameron is actually going to be of more consequence in the real world.
> The markets matter more than majorities.
> And not one single party or individual has proposed a scheme which would free Spain and other states from the grip of the markets over its finances. Until some such feasible plan is on the table, party differences don't matter jack squit.


I think it *does* matter. It's small things such as _where_ the cuts are made and social rights such as abortion, immigration, and gay marriage that are worrying me. 



I stand corrected a bit about the party platforms. I've spent some time on the major party websites reading their "outlines."

PP Immigration: Nuestras Ideas - Inmigración - Partido Popular - pp.es
PP Education and Culture: Nuestras Ideas - Educación y Cultura - Partido Popular - pp.es (Check out idea #10 - sounds like my job might be safe.) 

Here's the full PSOE _programa electoral_: Programa Generales 2011


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I am getting the impression that most posters on this thread would prefer the PSOE to win. I'm struggling to work out why.


For me it is because they are the residue of Franco's lot/Falangists, also allied to Toryism, Thatcherism, Nazi-ism, Pinochet's mob, etc, etc. I object to most [extreme] right-wing ideas under which "the people" come very much second. I would not, however say that I support extreme left-wing ideas either but on balance I would say I am left of centre.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> When they apologise for closing your local health centre, there is a chance they might actually mean it?
> 
> Both parties are committed to austerity measures but the PP I'm sure have a lot of other nasty things up their sleeve too. The are closely allied with the Catholic Church and and other extreme right-wing groups currently lurking behind the scenes.


So there's no health centre in Alcala any more? Where on earth do you have to go - there's nowhere for miles around!!

The point is that here and everywhere else the PSOE have been in power - for ever at a local level and for the last 8 years as the national government so the fact that council employees aren't being paid and there aren't enough teachers and health centres have to close is their fault.

Why would anyone want them back - just because they are 'socialist'?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> So there's no health centre in Alcala any more? Where on earth do you have to go - there's nowhere for miles around!!
> 
> The point is that here and everywhere else the PSOE have been in power - for ever at a local level and for the last 8 years as the national government so the fact that council employees aren't being paid and there aren't enough teachers and health centres have to close is their fault.
> 
> Why would anyone want them back - just because they are 'socialist'?


Better the devil you know...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I don't want the socialists back, but there's no way I want the PP in. They really fill me with dread. On a personal note they have made my husband redundant whilst there are still children with out teachers in their classrooms. However it's not just that. I am totally against their ideas of family, patriotism, elitism, religion, class etc, and etc.
I think if I had the vote I'd make my vote null and void so I'd satisfy my own need to vote (and do my duty, as I believe voting to be). I'd be informing the powers to be that I'm interested in how the country is run, but I don't feel able to vote for any one party. By making the vote void the seats are not affected - it's like an abstention.
Here's some information about the different votes and the effect they have in a SPANISH election
_Voto nulo: se considera voto nulo todo sobre que llegue con la papeleta electoral rasgada, tachada, con texto escrito o modificada de alguna forma por el votante. Todos estos votos se contabilizan pero no afectan el reparto de escaños ya que, al ser nulos, no se cuentan como válidos. Así pues, el voto nulo tiene el mismo efecto en las elecciones que la abstención._
From here
Voto en blanco, voto nulo y abstención, ¿cuál es la diferencia? - El blog de Arag


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> For me it is because they are the residue of Franco's lot/Falangists, also allied to Toryism, Thatcherism, Nazi-ism, Pinochet's mob, etc, etc. I object to most [extreme] right-wing ideas under which "the people" come very much second. I would not, however say that I support extreme left-wing ideas either but on balance I would say I am left of centre.


It's a bit like a religion isn't it - there's little logic - just 'faith'? The fact that they've left countless millions of unpaid debt and councils unable to pay their own workers due to gross mismanagement doesn't matter because they're socialist. 

If you're going to lump the PP in with Nazi-ism - I'll feel completely free to lump the PSOE in with Stalinism. :noidea:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> It's a bit like a religion isn't it - there's little logic - just 'faith'? The fact that they've left countless millions of unpaid debt and councils unable to pay their own workers due to gross mismanagement doesn't matter because they're socialist.
> 
> If you're going to lump the PP in with Nazi-ism - I'll feel completely free to lump the PSOE in with Stalinism. :noidea:


I don't know about the people on the forum as you mentioned in a previous post, but I do know a LOT of people who, face to face at least, say they are _*not*_ going to vote socialist as they feel totally let down, even cheated, by their leadership. I don't know anyone who has openly said that they're going to vote PP though. Mind you, I don't move in those circles and apart from that, I find talking about who you're going to vote for too personal for many of the people I have contact with at work etc


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> If you're going to lump the PP in with Nazi-ism - I'll feel completely free to lump the PSOE in with Stalinism. :noidea:


There is much much more than a grain of truth in both sides of that coin! Check your history of Spain in the 20th century.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> There is much much more than a grain of truth in both sides of that coin! Check your history of Spain in the 20th century.


Well OK - but in that case wouldn't it be better to use evidence that is slightly more up to date like the performance of the respective parties over the last few years? Otherwise you are simply comparing Hitler's Final Solution with Stalin's Purges to determine who should govern Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> There is much much more than a grain of truth in both sides of that coin! Check your history of Spain in the 20th century.


Let's get a few facts clear. PSOE is not 'socialist'. It was once but thankfully it ain't now.
No mainstream European left-of-centre party is socialist. The world has moved on, we've seen the failures of both socialism and free-market economic theories.
Socialism is alive and well in North Korea and Hampstead. The real menace is the persistance of neo-con theories in places which matter...the WTO, IMF,OECD although more enlightened voices are calling for growth.
And it's not right to describe Catholicism as 'extreme right wing'. The Catholic Church is an odd mixture of political and social views both left and right. Anyone thinking it's 'extreme right wing' obviously doesn't know about the worker priest movement and the work of priests and nuns in Central and South America many of whom have been murdered for their work with the poor.
Incidentally, although I do not share those views, I do not regard right wing views as illegitimate or sinister. People who hold views like that are simply.....people who don't share my opinions. We live in a pluralist society, thankfully, and unless we incite to hatred or violence we have a right to hold and express publicly any view we wish.
Halydia...you raise important issues. Yes, immigration, gay rights are important and must be preserved. Immigration needs a rethink in times of mass unemployment, though, and it is in no way racist to say so as the argument is an economic one. But as I think Clinton said 'It's the economy stupid' and how we put food on our tables is currently of more importance than whether gay couples can get married.
I'm afraid that sitting it out is in one way the equivalent of Nero fiddling while Rome burns. This crisis will affect every one of us Brit and other immigrants where it hurts...in our pockets.
The PP will win on Sunday. Now is the time for constructive opposition not in streets and squares but in the major left-of-centre party which is the only real governing alternative.
Do I like what's going to happen? Like hell. 
But I am not going to let it drift by me without putting my tuppence in where it might have some effect, albeit miniscule, because I am a *citizen..*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> When they apologise for closing your local health centre, there is a chance they might actually mean it?
> 
> Both parties are committed to austerity measures but the PP I'm sure have a lot of other nasty things up their sleeve too. The are closely allied with *the Catholic Church and and **other extreme right-wing groups* currently lurking behind the scenes.



Alca, I can't believe you wrote that. Are you seriously suggesting that the millions of Catholics in Spain and elsewhere are involved with an 'extreme right-wing group'?
A large percentage of practising Catholics vote for left-of-centre parties. Many Spanish Communists were practising Catholics.
When I was active in the church in the UK we supported a variety of 'leftist' groups...the Catholic Commission for Peace and Justice, Caritas...our RC church hosted our local Peace Group which was active in the anti-cruise missile protests.
Yes, there are some wierd and unsavoury Cathoilic groups. But you get wierdos and nutters everywhere. You can't write off millions of sincere people as 'right wing extremists'.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

> Let's get a few facts clear. PSOE is not 'socialist'.


Correct - the PSOE is not socialist any more than the PP is Fascist.

I am still at a loss to understand why some people here (mrypg9, baldilocks and alcalaina?) would wish to re-elect a party that has performed dismally and left Spain at a local and national level in an extremely perilous financial and social state.

It honestly smacks to me of some kind of blind religious-like fervour.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> So there's no health centre in Alcala any more? Where on earth do you have to go - there's nowhere for miles around!!
> 
> The point is that here and everywhere else the PSOE have been in power - for ever at a local level and for the last 8 years as the national government so the fact that council employees aren't being paid and there aren't enough teachers and health centres have to close is their fault.
> 
> Why would anyone want them back - just because they are 'socialist'?


Andalucia is still PSOE and they haven't closed any health centres. They have cut the staffing levels at ours, so there is only one doctor on duty now to cover both appointments and emergencies, and you can no longer get appointments in the afternoon. 

Some health centres in other regions have been closed though, notably Catalunya, and in Castila La Mancha since the PP took over the chemists haven't been paid for the drugs they dispense. 
La Generalitat de Cataluña cierra 40 centros de salud y obliga a derivar a miles de vecinos

The non-payment of public employees' wages is down to a shortfall of tax revenues against budget. La Linea is one of the worst offenders and that was run by the PP until last May.

The PSOE aren't socialist, they are just a bit less right-wing than the PP. The IU is the closest we have to a socialist option.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Alca, I can't believe you wrote that. Are you seriously suggesting that the millions of Catholics in Spain and elsewhere are involved with an 'extreme right-wing group'?
> A large percentage of practising Catholics vote for left-of-centre parties. Many Spanish Communists were practising Catholics.
> When I was active in the church in the UK we supported a variety of 'leftist' groups...the Catholic Commission for Peace and Justice, Caritas...our RC church hosted our local Peace Group which was active in the anti-cruise missile protests.
> Yes, there are some wierd and unsavoury Cathoilic groups. But you get wierdos and nutters everywhere. You can't write off millions of sincere people as 'right wing extremists'.


No, I'm not suggesting that all practising Catholics are extreme right-wing. But the Head Office certainly is.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Andalucia is still PSOE and they haven't closed any health centres. They have cut the staffing levels at ours, so there is only one doctor on duty now to cover both appointments and emergencies, and you can no longer get appointments in the afternoon.





> Originally Posted by Alcalaina
> When they apologise for closing your local health centre, there is a chance they might actually mean it?


I inferred from that that they had closed your health centre - sorry.



Alcalaina said:


> Some health centres in other regions have been closed though, notably Catalunya, and in Castila La Mancha since the PP took over the chemists haven't been paid for the drugs they dispense.
> La Generalitat de Cataluña cierra 40 centros de salud y obliga a derivar a miles de vecinos


So here you're saying that it's all the PP's fault because although they were not in power previously, they are now.



Alcalaina said:


> The non-payment of public employees' wages is down to a shortfall of tax revenues against budget. La Linea is one of the worst offenders and that was run by the PP until last May.


And here you're saying that it's all the PP's fault because although they are no longer in power they were previously.

Is my cynicism showing?



Alcalaina said:


> The PSOE aren't socialist, they are just a bit less right-wing than the PP. The IU is the closest we have to a socialist option.


I'm with Mary on this one. I wouldn't like to live in North Korea. I don't know about Hampsted...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I inferred from that that they had closed your health centre - sorry.
> 
> So here you're saying that it's all the PP's fault because although they were not in power previously, they are now.
> 
> ...


No, I'm not saying it's all one party's fault or another. I was just pointing out that the country's woes are not entirely down to PSOE mismanagement, which you seemed to be implying.

I've no idea what North Korea has to do with anything. I just want to live in a country where there is a political party that puts the interests of ordinary people above those of Goldman Sachs.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The mistake that everyone is making is to blame the current financial mess on Zap and the PSOE, when it is mostly the result of world economies getting caught in the financial whirlwind to a large extent set off by the US 'pie in the sky' mortgage system that worked on the principle of "pay nothing off the principal, and only a little off the interest (rolling up the shortfall), because with rising property values, the property will always be worth more and when you come to sell will be more than sufficient to clear the debt". 

Of course banks all over the world jumped on the bandwagon and were investing heavily in nothing, each, trying to maintain market share.

The PSOE had nothing to do with the financial crises in Greece, Italy, Portugal, and elsewhere but have tried to maintain some sort of employment levels "PlanE" which has been exploited left, right and centre by certain people (mostly by the PP crowd - alcalde and cronies in this village).


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The mistake that everyone is making is to blame the current financial mess on Zap and the PSOE, when it is mostly the result of world economies getting caught in the financial whirlwind to a large extent set off by the US 'pie in the sky' mortgage system that worked on the principle of "pay nothing off the principal, and only a little off the interest (rolling up the shortfall), because with rising property values, the property will always be worth more and when you come to sell will be more than sufficient to clear the debt".
> 
> Of course banks all over the world jumped on the bandwagon and were investing heavily in nothing, each, trying to maintain market share.
> 
> The PSOE had nothing to do with the financial crises in Greece, Italy, Portugal, and elsewhere but have tried to maintain some sort of employment levels "PlanE" which has been exploited left, right and centre by certain people (mostly by the PP crowd - alcalde and cronies in this village).


It is the fault of the US mortgage system that the PSOE in Jimena where I live (pop. 10,000) has run up a debt of 17,000,000 and just down the road Estepona (pop 60,000) has run up a debt of 340,000,000?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Regarding the leanings of the RC church, this is being fostered by the fact that the Republicans cracked down on the abuse of its position as being the prime educator which led to females, in particular, getting barely anything other than the most basic of educations leading to their treatment almost as slaves for the gratification and service of men with little opportunity of bettering themselves. 

The Republicans took education out of the hands of the Church and other Catholic organisations, much to their dismay. One of the first acts of Franco was to put it back with the church and restore many other powers that the Republicans had taken away. The fact that Franco was pro-Nazi irrefutably aligns him with them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> No, I'm not saying it's all one party's fault or another. I was just pointing out that the country's woes are not entirely down to PSOE mismanagement, which you seemed to be implying.
> 
> I've no idea what North Korea has to do with anything. I just want to live in a country where there is a political party that puts the interests of ordinary people above those of Goldman Sachs.


Well, North Korea fits the bill.
The IU contains die-hard Stalinist Communists as well as socialists. Thankfully they will not get a look in at these elections. I don't know why people still use the term 'socialist'. It's almost archeology.
The RC church in Spain has not got a proud record, that's true. Far from it. But it's quite wrong to describe the 'Head Office' as extreme right-wing because as an examination of its pronouncements on peace and social justice would show it's just not true.
There is a wide spectrum of opinion amongst Catholics whether priests or laity.
The Church has archaic views on sexual matters and tries to impose them on people, that's true too. I am personally not in favour of abortion but that is my personal view and I would not wish to impose it on others.
It is obvious that the mess we're in has been largely brought about by the financial crisis, itself brought about by flawed and dangerous neo-con economic policies. National governments can do little until they break free from the grip of the markets. Socialists and neo-cons have much in common....both would plunge and (have plunged) countries into economic chaos and ruin. They are both ideologies which try to mould unpredictable 'real-life' events into their desired pattern. Socialism has demonstrably failed and most of us recognise that. Neo-con economic policies have also failed but it seems that those in charge of us haven't realised that yet.
Locally, I have to agree with Jimenato. The PSOE administration in Estepona has literally bankrupted the town hall and not from fraud or corruption but through sheer mismanagement. But it's a case of 'the singer not the song'. PP administrations have been equally incompetent.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why people willit seems be voting in a PP government in spite of mass unemployment and all the 15M razamatazz.
And please, no explanations along the lines of 'PP won because PSOE weren't 'socialist' enough. 
I heard that in the UK in the years 1979 to 1997 more times than I care to remember.
So....why????


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm still waiting for someone to explain why people willit seems be voting in a PP government in spite of mass unemployment and all the 15M razamatazz.


I don't understand your confusion. People are voting in a PP government _precisely because of mass unemployment_ and all the other woes that have happened under a PSOE government. The 15M razamatazz is irrelevant apart from to those taking part.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I don't understand your confusion. People are voting in a PP government _precisely because of mass unemployment_ and all the other woes that have happened under a PSOE government. The 15M razamatazz is irrelevant apart from to those taking part.


My question was ironic, tongue-in-cheek. It is often said by people on the left that 'the workers' desert parties such PSOE because they are too right-wing - yet the same 'workers' vote for right-wing parties!!
But I have always maintained that 15M was irrelevant and would have zero effect on public voting behaviour and have been called a cynic for proffering that observation..


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> It is the fault of the US mortgage system that the PSOE in Jimena where I live (pop. 10,000) has run up a debt of 17,000,000 and just down the road Estepona (pop 60,000) has run up a debt of 340,000,000?


Indirectly - you could say the US mortgage system led to the global credit crisis which led to the collapse of Spain's building industry which led to mass unemployment which led to the Ayuntamientos not having enough tax revenue to cover their outgoings.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> It is often said by people on the left that 'the workers' desert parties such PSOE because they are too right-wing - yet* the same 'workers' *vote for right-wing parties!!


No, these are _different_ groups. Some people move to the right, others to the left. In some parts of Spain last May there was a bigger swing to the IU than to PP. I posted the figures for you before, can't be bothered to do it again (and the power might go off again any minute!)


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Indirectly - you could say the US mortgage system led to the global credit crisis which led to the collapse of Spain's building industry which led to mass unemployment which led to the Ayuntamientos not having enough tax revenue to cover their outgoings.


You can blame US mortgages only to the extent that they were packaged up and resold in a way that disguised the risk of the underlying asset. And only to the extent that it was that market which first exposed such practices. Above all else what it did was to set us on a slippery slope of decreasing confidence, etc

I don't think it helps us understand the position we are in now or what options we have though.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

rifleman said:


> You can blame US mortgages only to the extent that they were packaged up and resold in a way that disguised the risk of the underlying asset. And only to the extent that it was that market which first exposed such practices. Above all else what it did was to set us on a slippery slope of decreasing confidence, etc
> 
> I don't think it helps us understand the position we are in now or what options we have though.


Not quite as simple as that. So many banks and other financial institutions got in on those banking scams (yes, that was really what they were) to make sure that they didn't lose market share that when the bottom dropped out, so many people, banks and countries were hit!

The trouble is the "easy" money idea took off so much in the US that the construction industry went mad leaving so many empty properties that nobody could afford. The situation has been similar, here in Spain where the idea caught on of build, build, build which is fine if potential purchasers have sufficient money to buy, buy, buy but when they don't, all that property built with money borrowed from the banks just sits empty and the banks foreclose on the unredeemed loans. 

When you allow for the fact that it wasn't just the US and Spain that were hit, thanks to global economies and trends, you end up with financial crises around the world.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Indirectly - you could say the US mortgage system led to the global credit crisis which led to the collapse of Spain's building industry which led to mass unemployment which led to the Ayuntamientos not having enough tax revenue to cover their outgoings.


No it started from there, directly. Then assisted by the financial industry who bundled them up & sold them as bonds for investment markets. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knew they had no fundamental support. 
Their hypothesis was based on the original defaults , which amounted to 5%, so they scaled it up & when they rolled out non-recourse mortgages on a large scale they were expecting the same % of defaults. Then they sold them as bonds, but once the defaults started coming in at 45-50% , mainly because they'd been selling them to people who'd never had a job, been in prison all there lives, etc; etc; it didn't take long for the lenders to realise the extent of the problem & begin to fail !
It defies belief that all of the financial people failed to realise that if the homeowners defaulted the whole lot would collapse. Therefore the financial people who knowingly sold them on were basically committing fraud. 

Once it all started to collapse, & the governments had to bail out the 'gamblers' ; the banks & their 'investment staff ' , who is left to foot the bill ? Us , the decent honest hard-working tax-paying general public , whilst the bankers & those who've got us in to this mess are still receiving bonuses. It's taking the **** on a grand scale. As for the minister, from Luxembourg I believe, who said recently " "we know how to solve the crisis, but it's getting re-elected after we've done it that's the problem " . He should be told that getting re-elected isn't the problem but staying alive is , if they don't solve it ; without the people who it had nothing to do with paying !
Years ago when I first learnt of ' non-recourse mortgages' ( being sold in the U.S. ) I pmslaughing . I couldn't believe that any business , let alone banks, would offer something that required no collateral & left them holding all the possible losses. 
I , personally , wouldn't hesitate to shoot the lot, & wouldn't lose a minutes sleep over it. 








Anyone who offered non-recourse mortgages


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> No, these are _different_ groups. Some people move to the right, others to the left. In some parts of Spain last May there was a bigger swing to the IU than to PP. I posted the figures for you before, can't be bothered to do it again (and the power might go off again any minute!)


Yes, I remember. But we don't know for sure which individuals did what.
But what you have said strengthens the important fact that 'the workers' can't be seen as a homogenous group in the old 'socialist' ways I used to think.
And that's the crux of it.
The slogan 'The workers united can never be defeated' is meaningless because the workers are not an homogenous collective but a disparate group of individuals with their own views and agendas.
In the UK at least most working people are deeply small 'c' conservative, a fact that I used to despair over but now accept.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Indirectly - you could say the US mortgage system led to the global credit crisis which led to the collapse of Spain's building industry which led to mass unemployment which led to the Ayuntamientos not having enough tax revenue to cover their outgoings.


Not really. Our ex-Alcalde -lovely man -was an old-fashioned tax and spend Labour type but alas incompetent with it. He just forgot to balance the books.
It's not that simple, as others have pointed out.
Life rarely is.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Mary - aren't you in on this:
Women's March To Highlight Impact Of Cuts - Yahoo!
?


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Like it or not, the election result will reflect what the majority want.


unless the voting machines don't work correctly and then the election is decided by the supreme court. or, does that only happen in the U.S.? yea buddy. sorry, editorial comment. my bad!!  as you were.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I just want to live in a country where there is a political party that puts the interests of ordinary people above those of Goldman Sachs.


um.......good luck with that!! does one exist? 

don't mind me, still reading through this very educational thread.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

BBC News - What's the matter with Spain?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tobyo said:


> unless the voting machines don't work correctly and then the election is decided by the supreme court. or, does that only happen in the U.S.? yea buddy. sorry, editorial comment. my bad!!  as you were.


I hear what you say but could you give us an idea as to what might be a better system?
It's easy to criticise, spot the flaws and so on but I can't think of any system of democratic participation which is without faults of some kind.
Similarly with politicians' response to the economic crisis.....
Much complaint, few feasible solutions.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> BBC News - What's the matter with Spain?


Very good and extremely fair comment!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tobyo said:


> um.......good luck with that!! does one exist?
> 
> don't mind me, still reading through this very educational thread.



Yes...as I said earlier...North Korea.
Goldman Sachs isn't the real - or only -villain of the piece.
Personally, I blame the University of Chicago Economics Faculty.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

Sounds like I should start figuring out how the peseta works.
It's clear that whomever wins today has one heckuva job ahead of them!


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> BBC News - What's the matter with Spain?


Spot on.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

tobyo said:


> um.......good luck with that!! does one exist?
> 
> don't mind me, still reading through this very educational thread.


Sure, but they tend not to get elected. ...  at least in cynical old Europe. There are some in South America, despite the USA's best efforts to nobble them.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Very good and extremely fair comment!


Good apart from the bit that says Spain's problems are the result of wages being too high. Wages increased faster than in Germany because they started from a much lower level, but the average wage is still only €15,500 a year.

You don't increase a country's prosperity by driving down wages.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Good apart from the bit that says Spain's problems are the result of wages being too high. Wages increased faster than in Germany because they started from a much lower level, but the average wage is still only &#128;15,500 a year.
> 
> You don't increase a country's prosperity by driving down wages.


But you also don't increase prosperity in a sustainable way if pay increases are not justified by increased productivity. The pay increases spaniard have enjoyed have been fueled by borrowing, not by increased productivity.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Good apart from the bit that says Spain's problems are the result of wages being too high. Wages increased faster than in Germany because they started from a much lower level, but the average wage is still only €15,500 a year.
> 
> You don't increase a country's prosperity by driving down wages.


I was going to say, wages here are (in my opinion) quite low. What percentage of the population earns 1,000 eur/month or less? 

OH and I went into shock last month when we saw the government had decided to hold back 26% of his wage. Thankfully they're just taking out 18% of mine.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We can moan as much as we like but no matter what - we don't have a vote in National elections which is a shame when we contribute to the economy and have to put up with whatever political party is in power.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> You don't increase a country's prosperity by driving down wages.


Actually, that's not true. That statement needs a lot of qualification.
It's a very good way to increase prosperity...for some. The Asian tiger economies did very well out of holding down percentage levels of wage increases until the economy was stable enough to afford raising them. Of course this was accompanied by limited political freedom but then demands for that usually follow economic wellbeing.
The salient point has already been made...if wage increases outstrip productivity then those wage increases will mean nothing...wage inflation without a commensurate increase in output per worker usually spells economic disaster.
What we have to face up to is how things actually are, not as we would like them to be. Without that starting point no progress of any kind can be made.
Giving everyone a decent living wage is a moral imperative not an economic one.
Incidentally, could the appalling weather be the Almighty's judgment of the likely PP win today?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> I was going to say, wages here are (in my opinion) quite low. What percentage of the population earns 1,000 eur/month or less?
> 
> OH and I went into shock last month when we saw the government had decided to hold back 26% of his wage. Thankfully they're just taking out 18% of mine.



That's awful. Any Government that penalises education and educators is on a very slippery slope.
But you have to look at horses for courses, as the saying goes.
Wages and purchasing power have to be considered in the context of national economies as a whole.....in terms of productivity, output etc.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That's awful. Any Government that penalises education and educators is on a very slippery slope.
> But you have to look at horses for courses, as the saying goes.
> Wages and purchasing power have to be considered in the context of national economies as a whole.....in terms of productivity, output etc.


But then you look at the likes of the UK where "teachers" who can't teach are often grossly overpaid while the bodies who test the pupils consistently dumb down standards so that the educators appear to be doing some sort of a half-decent job, when they aren't. (eh, do what?)

Far too many students take non-subjects and get a degree which then entitles them to a job which they are incapable of doing while keeping people who *can* do the job down because the latter don't have a degree. Employment opportunities should go back to being based on ability not pieces of worthless paper! If we headed in that direction we might start getting economies that worked.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But then you look at the likes of the UK where "teachers" who can't teach are often grossly overpaid while the bodies who test the pupils consistently dumb down standards so that the educators appear to be doing some sort of a half-decent job, when they aren't. (eh, do what?)
> 
> Far too many students take non-subjects and get a degree which then entitles them to a job which they are incapable of doing while keeping people who *can* do the job down because the latter don't have a degree. Employment opportunities should go back to being based on ability not pieces of worthless paper! If we headed in that direction we might start getting economies that worked.


I agree with much of what you say. Far too many teachers are themselves barely literate and numerate. In my time in education I have witnessed many examples of incompetent practitioners who shouldn't have been allowed to clean a classroom, let alone teach in it.
I also agree that standards have fallen and there are too many second and third-rate students at second and third-rate 'universities'.
But we should be asking why this has come about.
Imo it's largely because so-called 'progressives' in education and government have seen education not as a path to knowledge, skills and enlightenment but as a tool of social engineering.....a means of bringing about a more 'egalitarian' society which it has signally failed to do. It has instead led to the creation of a barely literate and numerate underclass, unable to perform any kind of skilled or semi-skilled employment and who are edged out of such jobs as might be available by better-educated immigrants from countries where education is about teaching young people life skills in the widest sense.
Many of these 'progressives' are themselves products of Oxbridge and other top universities and send their own children to fee-paying schools...
To take one example, the level of IT teaching in the UK is appalling. No wonder people from India and other Asian countries are so prominent in this vital field of the economy. 
The problem with what you say though is this: granted many paper qualifications are useless as a guide to ability to do a job...but how do you find out whether an applicant has the necessary skills and attributes? A recent move by the Tory part of the UK governing coalition to allow employers to sack underperforming workers was blocked by the Lib-Dem part thereof.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> We can moan as much as we like but no matter what - we don't have a vote in National elections which is a shame when we contribute to the economy and have to put up with whatever political party is in power.


But those of us with Spanish spouses can be real pains in the behind and get them to vote!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The problem with what you say though is this: granted many paper qualifications are useless as a guide to ability to do a job...but how do you find out whether an applicant has the necessary skills and attributes?


Very simply - promote from within, i.e. promotion should be what it says. In far too many companies, the move has been to have a "Management Trainee" programme (open to those who have a degree in "something") where its products are fast-tracked into management positions thus blocking the promotion of those whom they manage yet who know how to do the job better.

How has this come about? Back in the 70s and 80s, someone had the idea which might have been good at the time when education standards were a little higher but many of those who took the "short-circuit to success" then are now at the top and ensure that the system remains even though it continues to promote incompetents.

This is, on my part, not an ideological gripe, I have seen the potentially disastrous consequences and had to have one of these incompetents removed from his post and put in a less dangerous position after he twice nearly caused major railway accidents which could have resulted in the loss of numerous lives.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I hear what you say but could you give us an idea as to what might be a better system?
> It's easy to criticise, spot the flaws and so on but I can't think of any system of democratic participation which is without faults of some kind.
> Similarly with politicians' response to the economic crisis.....
> Much complaint, few feasible solutions.


you make a very good point!! I don't have any ideas, just opinions on the way some of our elections played out. Sometimes I think it best to just ignore politics completely, it just frustrates the heck out of me!!! but I guess that will never happen. 

one thing is clear: I don't know much about Spain's politics. Maybe I should remain here in my ignorance


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Personally, I blame the University of Chicago Economics Faculty.


and me: George W. Bush. Oh wait, I'd have to go back to the Supreme court that chose him now wouldn't I?  Okay, I blame Sandra Day O'Connor.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Sure, but they tend not to get elected. ...  at least in cynical old Europe. There are some in South America, despite the USA's best efforts to nobble them.


I had that same thought too, just didn't feel like writing out my thoughts on it. There are actually some here too, alas.....they don't get elected!! as you said. However....I do believe there are SOME in the democratic party who do actually care about the people. Big business tends to win over the "will" of the people, at least lately anyway. Obama truly does care (my opinion of course), I just can't figure out why he let the Republicans run all over him, just about always. He had two years with the dems in charge but he wanted it to be "fair". and you see what has happened. I also believe that Bill Clinton cared(and still does)............and there might be some on the right that care tho that's more difficult for me to see. but the entire party of dems and reps? likely not

oh yea, don't get me started!! doesn't really belong in this thread about Spain's elections does it?


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## gingham (Jun 23, 2011)

rifleman said:


> But you also don't increase prosperity in a sustainable way if pay increases are not justified by increased productivity.


But then the bankers could and do argue that their increased productivity is the reason for their improved salaries, it is immaterial that their increased productivity has been so disasterous to the worlds economy and even more disasterous to so many people.
The same arguement also applies to many of the company heads whose salaries rocket yearly but in reality, not fiddled statistics, say the same.

G


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tobyo said:


> you make a very good point!! I don't have any ideas, just opinions on the way some of our elections played out. Sometimes I think it best to just ignore politics completely, it just frustrates the heck out of me!!! but I guess that will never happen.
> 
> one thing is clear: I don't know much about Spain's politics. Maybe I should remain here in my ignorance


Why?? Who says we know what we're talking about!!!
The problem is that the 'many' will never overcome the 'few' in a head-on confrontation because the 'many' are divided and the 'few' are, sensibly, united in their desire to hold on to their power, wealth and privilege.
Add to that the fact that the British people as a whole tend to be deeply small 'c' conservative as I suspect are most people in Spain and the US and you are faced with the fact that the only way to make significant changes is by evolution not revolution.
Most of the important progress relating to social welfare in the UK has come about either during or in the aftermath of war...Lloyd Georges reforms as Munitions Minister (surprisingly...google it for details) in WW1 and the Beveridge Report WW2.
If there's another World War we sure won't be bothering about improved pensions.
I sperak as a former class warrior and extreme lefty who saw the light...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tobyo said:


> oh yea, don't get me started!! doesn't really belong in this thread about Spain's elections does it?


But to some extent, it does. Whatever happens on the other side of the big pond invariable affects things on this side in one way or another. I do think that US politics is too much in the hands of big business, especially the arms business. The US has to have wars to keep the US arms industry, which controls so much of the US, in business. This is according to my m-i-l who is a Texan.

Maybe this is what is wrong in most countries, the reigning government does not do enough to support businesses which, of course, employ people and enable them to pay taxes and also stay off the unemployment register. While I am not in favour of mass nationalisation, the Maggie Thatcher idea of everything in private ownership doesn't work and won't work until fair competition takes place and price fixing is illegal (and enforced!) ensuring that the customer gets the best value.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Why?? Who says we know what we're talking about!!!
> The problem is that the 'many' will never overcome the 'few' in a head-on confrontation because the 'many' are divided and the 'few' are, sensibly, united in their desire to hold on to their power, wealth and privilege.
> Add to that the fact that the British people as a whole tend to be deeply small 'c' conservative as I suspect are most people in Spain and the US and you are faced with the fact that the only way to make significant changes is by evolution not revolution.
> Most of the important progress relating to social welfare in the UK has come about either during or in the aftermath of war...Lloyd Georges reforms as Munitions Minister (surprisingly...google it for details) in WW1 and the Beveridge Report WW2.
> ...


even if you don't know what you're talking about, I'm getting some education on Spain's politics. and I hear you on the many and the few. it's the many who are in control here too, or so it seems to me. 

I've always thought that Europe, in general, is MUCH more progressive than we here in the U.S. and not terribly conservative at all. Don't burst that bubble for me!!  ha ha. perhaps more of my ignorance showing. who knows? 

and if what you say is true about pensions with another world war? well, I can kiss my dream of retiring to Spain goodbye. I probably should have a plan B huh? really don't want to think about that


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> But to some extent, it does. Whatever happens on the other side of the big pond invariable affects things on this side in one way or another. I do think that US politics is too much in the hands of big business, especially the arms business. The US has to have wars to keep the US arms industry, which controls so much of the US, in business. This is according to my m-i-l who is a Texan.
> 
> Maybe this is what is wrong in most countries, the reigning government does not do enough to support businesses which, of course, employ people and enable them to pay taxes and also stay off the unemployment register. While I am not in favour of mass nationalisation, the Maggie Thatcher idea of everything in private ownership doesn't work and won't work until fair competition takes place and price fixing is illegal (and enforced!) ensuring that the customer gets the best value.


oh okay then, I'll just keep pontificating then  LOL!! but I do see your point. someone earlier in this thread (may have been you, just don't recall right this moment) pointed to our mortgage crisis. There is a very good example of how that was felt round the world. and you are SPOT ON with your comment about big business. I am so sick to death of them controlling just about everything here!!! I had such high hopes when Obama was elected, after the extreme dolldrums of "dubya's" reign. (sorry, hard for me to say or write that moron's name....I did earlier but may not again here in this forum. harumpf!!) But Obama just bows, and bows and bows to the corporatists, over and over and over and over again. as I see my retirement money continue to dwindle. your MIL is pretty spot on as well. we must have perpetual war to line the pockets of the richest. yea buddy.

yea yea, I wish I had some answers.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

gingham said:


> But then the bankers could and do argue that their increased productivity is the reason for their improved salaries, it is immaterial that their increased productivity has been so disasterous to the worlds economy and even more disasterous to so many people.
> The same arguement also applies to many of the company heads whose salaries rocket yearly but in reality, not fiddled statistics, say the same.
> 
> G


what argument? You aren't putting an argument, you are just making accusations about the people you want to blame. I have no idea whether bankers are more productive and neither do you. Only the banks who employ them, and the bankers themselves, know that.

Explain to me what economic theory you have that says paying higher wages without comensurate increases in productivity leads to an improvement in wage earners standards of living.

if you want to understand what has gone wrong and what needs to be done you have to get out of this simplistic idea that someone is to blame. We are all to blame.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rifleman said:


> what argument? You aren't putting an argument, you are just making accusations about the people you want to blame. I have no idea whether bankers are more productive and neither do you. Only the banks who employ them, and the bankers themselves, know that.
> 
> Explain to me what economic theory you have that says paying higher wages without comensurate increases in productivity leads to an improvement in wage earners standards of living.
> 
> if you want to understand what has gone wrong and what needs to be done you have to get out of this simplistic idea that someone is to blame. We are all to blame.


The piece from the BBC posted by gus some pages back is most enlightening. If true and I think it is, then yes, in Spain the blame lies with the people -or some of the people- of Spain themselves.
What clinches it for me is that Zapatero's Government did not borrow excessively until unemployment reached such a high level and money was needed to fund unemployment benefit. It seems he has taken the rap for a situation not entirely of his making.
Some time ago I read that an amazing percentage of Spaniards have second homes, many if not most purchased with borrowed money.
It seems that the root of the crisis is the housing/construction boom which began under Aznar.. My neighbour, a school teacher, bemoans the fact that when the construction bonanza was underway, students weren't interested in qualifications as there was good money to be made in construction. Wages rose in that industry so employers in other sectors borrowed on cheap credit to fund competitive wages for their employees.
As you say, it is an inescapable fact that wages have to be earned in terms of output or productivity. Failure to grasp this essential point was one of the many reasons for the poor economic performance of the countries of the former Socialist bloc.
Sometimes the truth is hard to accept ..for all of us.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

As you say Mary, the truth is hard to accept. Like you I am a democrat, and believe that voters must decide for themselves how they want to go forward. We are all going to have to deal with the consequences, so it is right that we have our say.
I am a pretty well educated, politically aware, chap with a good academic grasp of economics. But the problems that recent events have exposed, the potential solutions, the possible undesirable or unintended consequences of those solutions, all conspire to make this incomprehensible even for me at times. I don't mean to seem arrogant but most people must really be struggling to understand.
If there was ever a time for political leadership, this is it. But I think this is missing. Someone, it may have been you, pointed to the leadership shown by Gordon Brown during the banking crisis. I am no fan of Brown, but we have needed similar leadership during this soveriegn debt crisis. We have not had it and worse than that, in some parts of Europe (greece & Italy) politicians have abdicated responsibility to technocrats.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

From an article by Giles Tremlett in today's Observer about Benalup, a town just up the road from me. Very sad illustration of what happens when the bubble bursts ... it now has the highest unemployment rate in Spain. 



> Spain's biggest problem remains the money owed to banks for property or land bought during a decade-long boom fuelled by cheap credit. The rows of unsold new homes in Benalup are evidence of Spain's housing bubble, which burst in 2008, leaving 700,000 unsold new houses on the market.
> 
> By 2004, more than 80% of Benalup's labour force worked in construction, building homes or holiday apartments along the nearby Mediterranean coast. "Kids left school at 16 because they could earn €3,000 a month working a three-and-a-half-day week," says Moguel ...
> 
> ...


I know some people blame the kids for taking out big loans, but if the bankers lending the money for the construction projects couldn't predict that the boom wouldn't last, how could the kids on the building sites be expected to? Yet they are the ones who suffer most. I didn't realise you were still liable for the entire debt even after your home has been repossessed.



> Now the town is plastered with "For Sale" signs from Servihabitat, the real estate branch of La Caixa, which is repossessing properties – though owners must still pay off their full debt after homes have been taken away. "That's unfair. You can't have a bank saying your home is worth €180,000, lending you the money and then repossessing it at half that price," says Moguel


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> From an article by Giles Tremlett in today's Observer about Benalup, a town just up the road from me. Very sad illustration of what happens when the bubble bursts ... it now has the highest unemployment rate in Spain.
> 
> I know some people blame the kids for taking out big loans, but if the bankers lending the money for the construction projects couldn't predict that the boom wouldn't last, how could the kids on the building sites be expected to? Yet they are the ones who suffer most. I didn't realise you were still liable for the entire debt even after your home has been repossessed.


This is one of the reasons that the bankers should be made to repay their big fat bonuses. On the subject of bonuses, how come civil servants and local government offers are getting bonuses and what for? Just doing the job they have already been paid to do?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> if the bankers lending the money for the construction projects couldn't predict that the boom wouldn't last, how could the kids on the building sites be expected to?


That question in many ways brings us closer to the answers we need than a lot of people realise.

Bankers just make investment decisions in exactly the same was as any business person. If they don't take risks we don't have jobs. For some reason people imagine that they can predict boom and bust with some sort of accuracy, but they cannot. They never claimed to be able to. Public and Commercial sector researchers and analysts, the best equiped and informed people there are cannot predict accurately when markets will turn. All they can do is tell you what they think might happen. Boom and bust is inevitable because to predict it, and therefore to be able to head it off, requires us to predict how people, including consumers, are going to behave. People are not that predictable.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

rifleman said:


> That question in many ways brings us closer to the answers we need than a lot of people realise.
> 
> Bankers just make investment decisions in exactly the same was as any business person. If they don't take risks we don't have jobs. For some reason people imagine that they can predict boom and bust with some sort of accuracy, but they cannot. They never claimed to be able to. Public and Commercial sector researchers and analysts, the best equiped and informed people there are cannot predict accurately when markets will turn. All they can do is tell you what they think might happen. Boom and bust is inevitable because to predict it, and therefore to be able to head it off, requires us to predict how people, including consumers, are going to behave. People are not that predictable.


So, if they can't do the job that we (the customers) expect them to do, how come they are getting bonuses for getting it wrong?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> So, if they can't do the job that we (the customers) expect them to do, how come they are getting bonuses for getting it wrong?


That is a separate issue and no, they shouldn't. It's quite wrong to reward failure.
But it is equally wrong to see those with debts as hapless, misled victims.
These people are surely not morons. They made a judgment based no doubt on self-interest, as most judgments are.
Anyone unaware that boom and bust are inherent to capitalism is displaying behaviour akin to that of an ostrich, whether lender or borrower.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> From an article by Giles Tremlett in today's Observer about Benalup, a town just up the road from me. Very sad illustration of what happens when the bubble bursts ... it now has the highest unemployment rate in Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> I know some people blame the kids for taking out big loans, but if the bankers lending the money for the construction projects couldn't predict that the boom wouldn't last, how could the kids on the building sites be expected to? Yet they are the ones who suffer most. I didn't realise you were still liable for the entire debt even after your home has been repossessed.


That is the case in the UK too. A debt is a debt and must be repaid.
I'm quite sure the bankers knew the boom wouldn't last.
But then so did I and very many others. 
Not because I'm an economic genius or have mystic powers...Simply because bust follows boom like night follows day. The history of the post-and pre-war years tells us that.
That's why I will never be rich....I am far too risk adverse. I never bought a house via a mortgage in the UK. I started with a ridiculously cheap old property for which I had saved the cash for three years then renovated it when I had sufficient funds to do so.
What a pity more young people aren't more forward -thinking. Easy credit is a temptation but temptation should nearly always be resisted. Imo home loans should be in a special category with a different credit structure. Homes aren't like cars.
One of the most evil adverts I can remember is one from the late 60s -early 70s...it was for Barclaycard and the strapline was 'Take the waiting out of wanting'.
Pure porn.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rifleman said:


> That question in many ways brings us closer to the answers we need than a lot of people realise.
> 
> . People are not that predictable.



Sorry duplicate post


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rifleman said:


> That question in many ways brings us closer to the answers we need than a lot of people realise.
> 
> Bankers just make investment decisions in exactly the same was as any business person. If they don't take risks we don't have jobs. For some reason people imagine that they can predict boom and bust with some sort of accuracy, but they cannot. They never claimed to be able to. Public and Commercial sector researchers and analysts, the best equiped and informed people there are cannot predict accurately when markets will turn. All they can do is tell you what they think might happen. Boom and bust is inevitable because to predict it, and therefore to be able to head it off, requires us to predict how people, including consumers, are going to behave. People are not that predictable.


Which is why economics,sociology etc. should never be described as 'sciences'..


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> So, if they can't do the job that we (the customers) expect them to do, how come they are getting bonuses for getting it wrong?


You have never paid a banker to tell you when a boom or bust would start or end. You just made an incorrect assumption about what they could do. That is your error, no the bankers. Caveat Emptor.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Which is why economics,sociology etc. should never be described as 'sciences'..


 quasi science is more accurate.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

rifleman said:


> You have never paid a banker to tell you when a boom or bust would start or end. You just made an incorrect assumption about what they could do. That is your error, no the bankers. Caveat Emptor.


So you're saying that when I ask my bank for advice they aren't obliged to do their best to give me good advice. I always thought that was what bankers were supposed to do, now you tell me that they are only there to fill their pockets with no thought for the people who are paying them - obviously Tories!


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> So you're saying that when I ask my bank for advice they aren't obliged to do their best to give me good advice. I always thought that was what bankers were supposed to do, now you tell me that they are only there to fill their pockets with no thought for the people who are paying them - obviously Tories!


Your bankers, just like anyone else you do business with, are obliged to do what it says in your contract with them. Check the terms and conditions that apply to any advice they give.

So long as they deliver what they promised you and you paid what you agreed then what is wrong with them profiting from the relationship?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rifleman said:


> That question in many ways brings us closer to the answers we need than a lot of people realise.
> 
> Bankers just make investment decisions in exactly the same was as any business person. If they don't take risks we don't have jobs. For some reason people imagine that they can predict boom and bust with some sort of accuracy, but they cannot. They never claimed to be able to. Public and Commercial sector researchers and analysts, the best equiped and informed people there are cannot predict accurately when markets will turn. All they can do is tell you what they think might happen. Boom and bust is inevitable because to predict it, and therefore to be able to head it off, requires us to predict how people, including consumers, are going to behave. People are not that predictable.


Strange how Marxist economists like Chris Harman managed to predict it pretty accurately.

[hides behind sofa and waits for burst of contemptuous outrage from Mrypg9] .... :behindsofa:


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Sorry, I meant to add that I am 100% sure that they never contracted to predict booms and busts for you.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Strange how Marxist economists like Chris Harman managed to predict it pretty accurately.
> 
> [hides behind sofa and waits for burst of contemptuous outrage from Mrypg9] .... :behindsofa:


Give me a link to those predictions and I'll comment specifically.

But you miss the point. Most economists predicted the boom would end. Some, not marxists or adherents to any particular theory, predicted it more accurately than others. If they got it completely right though it was a matter of luck, not better analysis. Economics is about attempting to predict human behaviour on a global scale. It is inherently unpredictable and so it is inherently inaccurate. It is because of this inaccuracy that risk arises.
Or, as Mary said, it ain't a science.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> So you're saying that when I ask my bank for advice they aren't obliged to do their best to give me good advice. I always thought that was what bankers were supposed to do, now you tell me that they are only there to fill their pockets with no thought for the people who are paying them - obviously Tories!


It's time we stopped talking about 'bankers' as if they were the personification of all evil.
Banks and those who work in them are essential to the daily running of our society. Because of banks we can deposit cash and withdraw it, set up standing orders and direct debits, have our wages and salaries paid, use debit and credit cards, get loans, buy foreign currencies, earn money on savings and a host of other vital services.
Banks enable government services to function. Without them there would be no public services, no pension payments...nada.
My son and dil work in the devil's lair, the City, one in the most evil of all evils, RBS,the heart of darkness itself; the other works in IT support, without which none of the services I've mentioned above would function. Both earn well but pay high taxes (as they should) and neither receives a huge bonus. Both have lost heavily as they own RBS shares which have at one point seen nearly 90% of their value wiped out.
They are both sick of the ignorant abuse hurled at the banking system as a whole when it is the investment arms of banks and other financial institutions which have gambled with people's life savings, companies' i hard-earned invested profits and national treasuries, not the sector in which they work..
Cashiers at RBS retail banking counters have been reduced to tears by abuse from members of the public who imagine these lowly-paid workers are part of some conspiracy to pauperise us all, victims of a hatreed stoked by the media feeding popular prejudice.
Why even in jest assume all these people are 'Tories'? They are all workers in that they are paid for their labour according to their skill, qualifications and the scarcity factor for some posts. Most of them are unionised and are now represented by Unite.

Putting people into classes or categories and assuming they are homogenous and bound by the same interests has been one of the curses of British politics and has held us back for the past century. I don't know if that is the case in Spain but I sincerely hope not.
These 'kids' who took out loans to buy property weren't children, they were autonomous adults with the capacity for judgment and decision-making. To think otherwise is to infantilise them. Their circumstances and plans for the future were not identical. If there was a fault somewhere along the line perhaps it should be laid at the door of the education system which ill-prepares youngsters for the real, economic facts of adult life.
If there is any hope for a truly reformist approach to politics it must be on the basis of viewing events and people in their true complexity. To do otherwise is to oversimplify which allows the real reactionaries to dismiss any attempt at change.
So....enough of banker-bashing. Yes,banking should be split into retail and investment banking as it used to be as recommended by a recent UK government report.
That will of course entail higher banking charges and people will whinge and moan but then security for your deposits comes at a price...like most things in life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Strange how Marxist economists like Chris Harman managed to predict it pretty accurately.
> 
> [hides behind sofa and waits for burst of contemptuous outrage from Mrypg9] .... :behindsofa:


Not really. As I keep on saying, you only have to look at the history of capitalism over the last five hundred years.
How many booms and busts have we seemn in the past fifty years???

Incidentally, I'm surprised that anyone calls themselves a 'Marxist' economist these days. Even Marxist historians like Hobsbawm and the late E.P.Thompson (a really lovely man - I used to share platforms with him when I was active in the peace movement....even I am not totally beyond redemption as I would gladly do so again) have moved away from their former views.
But Marx was a better economist than predictor and most of us believe that economic factors are of prime importance in any analysis of society. 
Where he was wrong and left a dangerous legacy was in seeing society as divided into distinct classes which had their distinct 'consciousness'.
To paraphrase Molesworth: 'Any fule know that the Tories would never have been elected if at least a third of the 'working-class' hadn't voted for them'.

I love that sofa icon.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> BBC News - What's the matter with Spain?


I've been reading this through, and once again there's smth basic that I just don't get.
According to the article
_*During the boom years, Spaniards earned more and spent more.*_
_*That helped to flatter the government's finances. More economic activity means more tax revenues.*_
_*But it also helped push Spanish wages up to uncompetitive levels.*_
Spanish wages are infamous for being low amongst the "high level" euro countries, so I don't understand this and then the whole argument of the piece fails. Even before the recession scientists, engineers, even teachers were leaving to get more competitive salaries in other countries.
Or perhaps I'm mistaken?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been reading this through, and once again there's smth basic that I just don't get.
> According to the article
> _*During the boom years, Spaniards earned more and spent more.*_
> _*That helped to flatter the government's finances. More economic activity means more tax revenues.*_
> ...


Sadly this I believe reflects that spanish problems are much deeper than current economics. The corruption, lack of law ("it's law Jim, but not as we know it ", and wealth distribution have led to a very uncompetitive country. 

As you sat Pesky how can 1000Es a month be described as a high wage ? And how can you lower it?

Can't wait to see notices in the estate agent windows with prices in:

pesetas, old Euros, new pesetas


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok kids, it's official. Landslide victory for the seagulls. 
Time to have a _chupito_ to numb the nerves and go to bed.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been reading this through, and once again there's smth basic that I just don't get.
> According to the article
> During the boom years, Spaniards earned more and spent more.
> That helped to flatter the government's finances. More economic activity means more tax revenues.
> ...


The point is that Spanish wages are not competitive when you take account of productivity. German industry is very efficient and can therefore afford higher wages. The article does explain this.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

rifleman said:


> The point is that Spanish wages are not competitive when you take account of productivity. German industry is very efficient and can therefore afford higher wages. The article does explain this.


I just ran it past my husband and he said more or less the same, but I can't find it expressed clearly in the article. What it does say very clearly in the article is that
But it also helped push Spanish wages up to uncompetitive levels
which I took to mean (mistakenly) that the wages in Spain in the last few years have been good to high, and we know that that is just not true. Salaries in Spain are low, and have been for some time, if not always.
OH also said that income has increased, but salaries haven't.
Then he went back to the tennis...


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Did you read this part?

Unit labour costs in Spain - a measure of the cost of employing an average Spaniard - rose 36% from the euro's creation in 1999 until the end of 2008.

Contrast that with Germany, where unit labour costs rose just 3% over the same period.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Did you read this part?
> 
> Unit labour costs in Spain - a measure of the cost of employing an average Spaniard - rose 36% from the euro's creation in 1999 until the end of 2008.
> 
> Contrast that with Germany, where unit labour costs rose just 3% over the same period.


Yes, I did, but that's not talking about productivity, is it? I understand the part that you've quoted to me here, but still don't see the relation with productivity, or high salaries.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I did, but that's not talking about productivity, is it? I understand the part that you've quoted to me here, but still don't see the relation with productivity, or high salaries.


Spain started from a lower wage level compared to many more industrialised European countries.and wages rose faster than output per worker - in other words, people were being paid much more for producing not much more. The Spanish economy grew imperceptibly over the past few years. 
Wage increases can be paid only by increases in profit via higher output, out of profit if zero increase in output or when there is no profitability by borrowing.
It seems that to compete with high wages in the construction industry many employeers, seeing output and profitability drop, resorted to borrowing to meet the payroll.
Zapatero's Government didn't borrow to fund a boom as did the Greek lot. He has been punished for one crime at least he didn't commit.
If only all those who filled squares and streets had played the system we've got and used their power for constructive ends.
Hopefully they will do that now.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Spain started from a lower wage level compared to many more industrialised European countries.and wages rose faster than output per worker - in other words, people were being paid much more for producing not much more. The Spanish economy grew imperceptibly over the past few years.
> Wage increases can be paid only by increases in profit via higher output, out of profit if zero increase in output or when there is no profitability by borrowing.
> It seems that to compete with high wages in the construction industry many employeers, seeing output and profitability drop, resorted to borrowing to meet the payroll.
> Zapatero's Government didn't borrow to fund a boom as did the Greek lot. He has been punished for one crime at least he didn't commit.
> ...


OK, I'm getting it. 
So Spanish salaries were really low and then, in a short pace of time, they went up to being just low. 
It just has to be clear that Spanish wages/ salaries were never actually high if you compared a Spanish doctor's, vet's, teacher's, biologist's, engineer's ... salary to their counterparts in the UK, France, Germany...


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, I'm getting it.
> So Spanish salaries were really low and then, in a short pace of time, they went up to being just low.
> It just has to be clear that Spanish wages/ salaries were never actually high if you compared a Spanish doctor's, vet's, teacher's, biologist's, engineer's ... salary to their counterparts in the UK, France, Germany...


OH earns half here what he'd earn back in the US. 

I understood the article as meaning that Spain had competitively low wages but the fact that cost of labor rose meant that Spain was no longer competitive in Europe.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, I'm getting it.
> So Spanish salaries were really low and then, in a short pace of time, they went up to being just low.
> It just has to be clear that Spanish wages/ salaries were never actually high if you compared a Spanish doctor's, vet's, teacher's, biologist's, engineer's ... salary to their counterparts in the UK, France, Germany...


That's true but you're not comparing like with like. The countries you mention are -or were - high wage high productivity economies.
Wages in the Czech Republic are also low compared even to Spain.
Wage levels reflect the competitiveness and productivity of a country.
The construction boom here did little to build the real, underlying economy - in fact it's clear now that it has done a lot of damage.
The boom has led to mass unemployment,unsustainable debt, has contributed to many young people's lack of skills and has attracted a load of not-very-wealthy Northern European retirees who in some areas must put a strain on health, education and other resources and who, compared to the high-net-worth individuals attracted to other countries, contribute comparatively little to the Spanish economy as a whole..


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> That's true but you're not comparing like with like. The countries you mention are -or were - high wage high productivity economies.
> Wages in the Czech Republic are also low compared even to Spain.
> Wage levels reflect the competitiveness and productivity of a country.
> The construction boom here did little to build the real, underlying economy - in fact it's clear now that it has done a lot of damage.
> The boom has led to mass unemployment,unsustainable debt, has contributed to many young people's lack of skills and has attracted a load of not-very-wealthy Northern European retirees who in some areas must put a strain on health, education and other resources and who, compared to the high-net-worth individuals attracted to other countries, contribute comparatively little to the Spanish economy as a whole..


Yes, that's clear to me Mary. I just wanted to make sure it's clear to people reading the thread, who maybe live outside the country and don't have the full picture if you see what I mean


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I did, but that's not talking about productivity, is it? I understand the part that you've quoted to me here, but still don't see the relation with productivity, or high salaries.


I am having a hard time getting what you don't understand. Let's take this one bit at a time.

High salaries is just shorthand for a greater income than before. The article explains how much incomes rose by and it was an awful lot compared to Spains competitors.

That would not have been a problem had productivity had risen comensurately, but it didn't. As the article points out by comparing the changes in unit cost in Spain and Germany.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

rifleman said:


> I am having a hard time getting what you don't understand. Let's take this one bit at a time.
> 
> High salaries is just shorthand for a greater income than before. The article explains how much incomes rose by and it was an awful lot compared to Spains competitors.
> 
> That would not have been a problem had productivity had risen comensurately, but it didn't. As the article points out by comparing the changes in unit cost in Spain and Germany.


Thanks for your time.
It's clear now.

Here a link to a glossary that others may find useful
OECD Glossary of Statistical Terms - Unit labour costs - OECD Definition

This is part of what it says about unit labour costs.

Unit labour costs (ULCs) represent a direct link between productivity and the cost of labour used in generating output. A rise in an economy’s unit labour costs represents an increased reward for labour’s contribution to output. However, a rise in labour costs higher than the rise in labour productivity may be a threat to an economy's cost competitiveness, if other costs are not adjusted in compensation.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

My pleasure


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks for your time.
> It's clear now.


I'm not so sure it is clear Pesky.

Miguel Arias, the Popular Party's campaign co-ordinator, said Spain was "going to make all the sacrifices". 

"We have been living as a very rich country," he told BBC News.

There is an issue here and it shouldn't be swept under the carpet IMHO


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> I'm not so sure it is clear Pesky.
> 
> Miguel Arias, the Popular Party's campaign co-ordinator, said Spain was "going to make all the sacrifices".
> 
> ...


Well, clear. You know what I ,mean.
Is that mud I see down there??

Miguel Arias. He wasn't on "Club de la Comedia", was he?

PS Have been looking at statistics (or is it data?) for days now. Something I don't usually do (surprise surprise after my comments on this thread, eh??)
Also I've been to see The Help with my bookclub buddies so we've been comapring film and book and debating over that. I feel I should go and perhaps do some work? Clean my dust filled home? Get off the computer:ranger:!!??
Over and out.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> I'm not so sure it is clear Pesky.
> 
> Miguel Arias, the Popular Party's campaign co-ordinator, said Spain was "going to make all the sacrifices".
> 
> ...



So...I ask again: what do you propose to do about it?
You are right....but what action can be taken?


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, clear. You know what I ,mean.
> Is that mud I see down there??
> 
> Miguel Arias. He wasn't on "Club de la Comedia", was he?
> ...


How was the movie? I watched half the video and threw in the towel. I *adored* the book.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Also I've been to see The Help with my bookclub buddies so we've been comapring film and book and debating over that.


So what was the verdict? I have read the book but I am reluctant to watch the movies of books since I would rather get the author's version rather than some movie director's.

My view of the book is that it was excellent and it is one of the few books I have recommended to others which is a rare thing indeed.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So...I ask again: what do you propose to do about it?
> You are right....but what action can be taken?


I refer the honorable lady to the reply I gave some moments ago


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> So what was the verdict? I have read the book but I am reluctant to watch the movies of books since I would rather get the author's version rather than some movie director's.
> 
> My view of the book is that it was excellent and it is one of the few books I have recommended to others which is a rare thing indeed.





> Originally Posted by *Halydia*
> How was the movie? I watched half the video and threw in the towel. I *adored* the book.


See the thread about film recommendations in La Tasca


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