# A Load of Driving/Insurance Related Questions....



## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Hi All,

I own a home in Spain, but I will travel back and forth to the UK for work. This will keep me well inside the 183 day rule, and I have been advised by a Spanish tax expert (..I realise they all give different advice!!) that I do not need to register as a resident as I have an address in the uk, albeit not my house.

My question is this......I have a uk driving licence, and will keep this going until I give up work in about three years time, when I will become a full time resident in Spain.

In the meantime I would like to bring over my motorbike from the uk, with a new mot, and years tax, and leave it full time in Spain. I realise that after 90 days my uk insurance is voided, but I think/assume that I could then insure it under a Spanish policy?

I am quite happy to have the bike registered onto Spanish plates after the 3 months if necessary...but my question is after it has been registered can I insure it on Spanish plates as a non resident? I've read somewhere that you can't??

I do have an NIE.

I'm also a bit confused, as I have also been told that I could buy a brand new motorbike, and then insure this....but I don't see how this is any different from insuring and owning a re-registered one? And part of me thinks this piece of information is incorrect? Or can I buy a new motorbike and have it in Spain?

Quite a few questions there, and I would appreciate any help anyone can give me 

Many thanks,

Steve


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

StevejR1 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I own a home in Spain, but I will travel back and forth to the UK for work. This will keep me well inside the 183 day rule, and I have been advised by a Spanish tax expert (..I realise they all give different advice!!) that I do not need to register as a resident as I have an address in the uk, albeit not my house.
> 
> ...


as a non-resident you can certainly purchase & insure a car or motorbike in Spain

I'm not sure about rematriculating a UK plated one though - or even if this would be necessary as long as you are actually non-resident & using it for less than half the year

hopefully someone else will know for sure


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Not sure if ths answers your question but Abbeygate insure UK registered cars, so perhaps they or someone else will cover your motorbike?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

What about the fact that Spain may be your 'centre of economic interest' - that is, are your family here? Is Spain your main abode (especially as you rent in UK)?

If Spain IS your 'centre of economic interest' then you really are resident here even though you don't meet the 183 day rule.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

el romeral said:


> Not sure if ths answers your question but Abbeygate insure UK registered cars, so perhaps they or someone else will cover your motorbike?


I've known of insurance companies that will "insure" UK cars owned by Spanish residents and everything is fine ............... until you need to claim on said insurance. Suddenly the clauses and small print comes out and ..........no, you werent covered, you just paid the premium and now, you've gotta pay for the claim out of your own pocket, oh and it wasnt insured, thats illegal. It happened to a friend of ours when his rather flash and expensive British Audi was stolen. 

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I know a friend of ours, who is non-resident and spends less than 183 days a year in Spain but rents a house here all year round, re-matriculated his Harley Davidson as he wanted to keep it out here, so yes it's possible. A local firm which customises Harleys helped him with the paperwork, and I know he had to sign on the padrón and get an NIE (yes, I know, in spite of the fact that non-residents shouldn't be on the padrón!). I don't know how much it all cost.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

Remember that regardless of the 183/centre of economic interest piece (which is very important - it's no longer as simple as just 183 days)- if you're in Spain continuously for longer than 90 days then you will also need to register as resident.

I live in Spain with my partner, but am employed by a UK company and I need to travel 1-2 times a month back to London - so I don't think I've ever been in Spain continuously - but I have to pay almost all my tax here (apart from rental income from a property which I pay to HMRC then declare to the Hacienda to avoid dual taxation). If you say you travel back to the UK for work (rather than 'I need to travel to Spain') - you may need to get that checked.

As for Spanish 'tax experts' - I've had three lots of bad experiences - but I'm led to believe there are many many good ones. The 'experts' in my own personal sometimes seem to define their status with you as how well they help you cut corners, dodge taxes unlawfully, and play the system. My last 'expert' tried to avoid me paying any Spanish tax altogether and just declare what was paid in the UK and claim I wasn't actually resident in Spain for as long as I was - which he admitted wasn't correct - needless to say I didn't give him any more custom.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> I know a friend of ours, who is non-resident and spends less than 183 days a year in Spain but rents a house here all year round, re-matriculated his Harley Davidson as he wanted to keep it out here, so yes it's possible. A local firm which customises Harleys helped him with the paperwork, and I know he had to sign on the padrón and get an NIE (yes, I know, in spite of the fact that non-residents shouldn't be on the padrón!). I don't know how much it all cost.


That is interesting Lynn 

I get a bit confused by the general applications.....I thought the padron was purely to record you as a member of the community, and for that the village can claim money for your occupancy in the community. I had assumed that taking residency was another form or application...but it appears it's not?

I have an NIE, but surely to apply for my padron would make me a resident?...and as soon as I became a resident I would have to have the motorbike re-registered to Spanish plates within the allotted time anyway (2-3 months?)?


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

samthemainman said:


> Remember that regardless of the 183/centre of economic interest piece (which is very important - it's no longer as simple as just 183 days)- if you're in Spain continuously for longer than 90 days then you will also need to register as resident.
> 
> I live in Spain with my partner, but am employed by a UK company and I need to travel 1-2 times a month back to London - so I don't think I've ever been in Spain continuously - but I have to pay almost all my tax here (apart from rental income from a property which I pay to HMRC then declare to the Hacienda to avoid dual taxation). If you say you travel back to the UK for work (rather than 'I need to travel to Spain') - you may need to get that checked.
> 
> As for Spanish 'tax experts' - I've had three lots of bad experiences - but I'm led to believe there are many many good ones. The 'experts' in my own personal sometimes seem to define their status with you as how well they help you cut corners, dodge taxes unlawfully, and play the system. My last 'expert' tried to avoid me paying any Spanish tax altogether and just declare what was paid in the UK and claim I wasn't actually resident in Spain for as long as I was - which he admitted wasn't correct - needless to say I didn't give him any more custom.


I realise this is a complicated issue, and trying to get the definitive answer is hard/impossible(??).

I did tell the tax consultant that I was more than happy to become a resident, and enter into the double taxation scheme, but his opinion was that I didn't need to.
It was also the opinion of my accountant in the UK, but he did admit to not knowing the finer points of Spanish law, but in principle he felt all my tax was being dealt with in the uk under the limited company that I work for, the rest is just a tax return in Spain.

I will be spending three weeks at a time in the uk, then a weekend in Spain. This ratio will be pretty constant throughout the year. So I think the consultant's view was that I was more resident in the uk than Spain.

I don't want to avoid tax, I'd rather do it all above board, but I also don't want to pay a lot of unnecessary tax if it's not necessary. I guess I need to get a second or third opinion as to what the legal opinion is. But this first one did come very highly rated.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

StevejR1 said:


> That is interesting Lynn
> 
> I get a bit confused by the general applications.....I thought the padron was purely to record you as a member of the community, and for that the village can claim money for your occupancy in the community. I had assumed that taking residency was another form or application...but it appears it's not?
> 
> I have an NIE, but surely to apply for my padron would make me a resident?...and as soon as I became a resident I would have to have the motorbike re-registered to Spanish plates within the allotted time anyway (2-3 months?)?


You are right about the status of the padrón. Our friend wasn't keen to sign on it as he genuinely isn't resident and doesn't spend more than 90 days consecutively in Spain, but they were insistent that if he wanted to change his bike to Spanish plates he would have to do it. It's quite a consipicuous beast and he's been stopped by the GC a few times (not for any offence) so he didn't want to risk leaving it on UK plates either. The police even came round to his house to check he lived there after his application was made!

He still hasn't registered as a resident because he isn't one.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> You are right about the status of the padrón. Our friend wasn't keen to sign on it as he genuinely isn't resident and doesn't spend more than 90 days consecutively in Spain, but they were insistent that if he wanted to change his bike to Spanish plates he would have to do it. It's quite a consipicuous beast and he's been stopped by the GC a few times (not for any offence) so he didn't want to risk leaving it on UK plates either. The police even came round to his house to check he lived there after his application was made!
> 
> He still hasn't registered as a resident because he isn't one.


it's a pita that he needed to register on the padrón to rematriculate the bike - I guess they just couldn't understand why someone who doesn't live here would want to do so

I'd strongly recommend that he takes himself off the padrón asap - it is tantamount to declaring yourself resident, with all that can entail tax-wise, as you know


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Hmmm Xabi not really

91 day stays can still total way short of the magic 183

As someone who likes poking the bear a bit on this one- I actually think my own circumstances which I intend- of keeping just shy of 90 on each visit ( and obviously less than 183 in a year) is actually a wee bit cheating the local village out of their money. But that's the rules


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Hmmm Xabi not really
> 
> 91 day stays can still total way short of the magic 183
> 
> As someone who likes poking the bear a bit on this one- I actually think my own circumstances which I intend- of keeping just shy of 90 on each visit ( and obviously less than 183 in a year) is actually a wee bit cheating the local village out of their money. But that's the rules


if you're referring to the post I quoted - yes it is 

when you register on the padrón you declare that the town is your 'place of habitual residence' or words to that effect

therefore you obviously spend more time there than anywhere else ... so as far as hacienda would be concerned you are resident - unless you can prove otherwise to their satisfaction 

and yes - they do have access to the padrón records


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I know what you're saying but I am just highlighting it's perfectly possibles of be resident but not tax resident


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> I know what you're saying but I am just highlighting it's perfectly possibles of be resident but not tax resident


of course it's possible to be a registered resident & not tax resident

& vice versa

but if you're on the padrón then you are very unlikely to not be tax resident

unless you aren't supposed to be on the padrón ..........


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> You are right about the status of the padrón. Our friend wasn't keen to sign on it as he genuinely isn't resident and doesn't spend more than 90 days consecutively in Spain, but they were insistent that if he wanted to change his bike to Spanish plates he would have to do it. It's quite a consipicuous beast and he's been stopped by the GC a few times (not for any offence) so he didn't want to risk leaving it on UK plates either. The police even came round to his house to check he lived there after his application was made!
> 
> He still hasn't registered as a resident because he isn't one.


So if applying for a padron isn't an application for residency, then where or how or what do you do to become a resident?


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Rabbitcat said:


> I know what you're saying but I am just highlighting it's perfectly possibles of be resident but not tax resident


I was under the impression it was easier to be tax resident rather than a resident?...in that you can be a tax resident without actually being a resident, but can't be a resident without being a tax resident?


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

StevejR1 said:


> So if applying for a padron isn't an application for residency, then where or how or what do you do to become a resident?


It appears the padron is an admission of residency..... ???


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

an


StevejR1 said:


> It appears the padron is an admission of residency..... ???


effectively it is

it isn't the _same _as registering as resident though - registering as resident is done at the _extranjería _& the padrón list is at the local town hall

if you are, or intend to be, here 90+ consecutive days, then you are required to register as resident

you should only be on the padrón if you spend more time in Spain than anywhere else - it's perfectly possible to never spend 90+ days consecutively here, though, & still spend more time here than anywhere else

in practice, _most_ people would be both registered as resident & also on the padrón


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> of course it's possible to be a registered resident & not tax resident
> 
> & vice versa
> 
> ...


Well some people winter in Spain maybe Jan to April- need to be on pardon but not tax resident


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well some people winter in Spain maybe Jan to April- need to be on pardon but not tax resident


they *don't* need to be on the padrón if they are only here Jan to April - unless they are otherwise constantly on the move & this is where they spend the longest time, so effectively where they are resident

in which case they would likely also be tax resident


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

How would they be tax resident if only there Jan to April?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> How would they be tax resident if only there Jan to April?


Because, in this case, it's nothing to do with the 183 day rule.

If your normal home (as in 'centre of economic interest') is in Spain, then you are both resident (so should register on the list of foreigners) and are tax resident (so should submit tax returns).


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

With regards to the bike, it is not difficult to re-register on Spanish plates, you just will have to change the headlight if it has a directional dipped beam.
I had to do that with my GSXR. Expensive (even from a breakers), but worth the peace of mind.

Also, the bike will have to be completely standard (at least when they inspect it).....

Maybe things have changed, but the Spanish insurers would not recognise my experience in the UK so most refused to insure me on a big bike as a "novice", even though I could prove that I had had the bike for 3 years in the UK. Only AMV would insure me (at a cost) but I do like AMV for this reason.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies 

So....as a non-resident, can I keep my motorbike in Spain for an extensive period if I insure it with Spanish insurance company after it has been out of the uk for over a 90 day period? 
Can I then drive it on my uk driving licence, up to a maximum of 12 months, when the mot/tax expire, as a tourist?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

StevejR1 said:


> Thanks for all the replies
> 
> So....as a non-resident, can I keep my motorbike in Spain for an extensive period if I insure it with Spanish insurance company after it has been out of the uk for over a 90 day period?
> Can I then drive it on my uk driving licence, up to a maximum of 12 months, when the mot/tax expire, as a tourist?


How can you drive it for 12 months as a *tourist*, when after 183 days in Spain you are a tax resident and after 90 days must sign on the list of foreigners.

You can drive anything (that you're entitled to) for as long as you want (until the licence expires) on a UK (European) licence.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Steve, we visited our friend who has the Harley today and I asked him which company the bike is insured with now it is on Spanish plates. He is with AXA, but not fully comprehensive. He said he got a quote from Linea Directa but it was astronomical by comparison.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> How can you drive it for 12 months as a *tourist*, when after 183 days in Spain you are a tax resident and after 90 days must sign on the list of foreigners.
> 
> You can drive anything (that you're entitled to) for as long as you want (until the licence expires) on a UK (European) licence.


Sorry, that probably wasn't very clear.....what I meant was can I keep/store my motorbike in Spain for 12 months while I'm out of the country, but ride it under Spanish insurance when I'm in the country. Obviously after 12 months I would have to return to the uk to have the mot and tax renewed.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Steve, we visited our friend who has the Harley today and I asked him which company the bike is insured with now it is on Spanish plates. He is with AXA, but not fully comprehensive. He said he got a quote from Linea Directa but it was astronomical by comparison.


Thank you Lynn  I am going to ask my uk insurance company (Carole Nash) what their opinion is, and depending on their view will then look into Spanish insurance companies. So thank you for the info and suggestion


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