# Residence Permit question



## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Hi,

My husband was a former German citizen and and he lost his citizenship when his parents moved with him to Australia as child and acquired Australian citizenship. 
The local Sydney consulate has informed him that the easiest way to get re-naturalised would be to apply for residence permit as per § 38 of the German Residence Act in Germany. I have a couple of questions:

What is the difference between citizenship and residence?

Will a residence permit allow you to work?

Can I (his wife) an Australian citizen acquire residence if my husband gets it?

In Australia, most employers require you to be a citizen or a permanent resident in order to work. Is this the same in Germany?

Any information on residence permit will be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks
C


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

A residence permit is basically the second step in the process of relocating to someplace. Generally speaking a visa allows you to enter the country (not always necessary when going to Germany) while a residence permit (which you get after your arrival) allows you to stay there.

Citizenship is a particular relationship with a country that involves assuming the rights and responsibilities of belonging to the state, whether or not you actually live there.

A residence permit may or may not allow you to work - there are different types and levels. In essence, as a former German national, he has no particular preferences when it comes to moving to Germany. He basically has to go through the same immigration process that you have to because now he is an Australian citizen.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Basically everything Bev said above. 

The consulate gave a vague and unhelpful answer.

A residence permit simply means that you have permission to stay in the country for a set period of time. Common reasons for granting include working, studying or marriage to an EU national. To work, you'd have to find a job, and the employer would need to sponsor the application and prove that no German or EU national was available - which in effect limits you to specialized professions. There are some additional options like the "freelancer visa" for self-employed persons.

But no, it's not granted automatically, and your husband would have no advantages over any other Australian citizen. To be naturalized, he'd need to become resident in Germany for however many years and meet various other conditions before he could apply for German citizenship, at which time he'd presumably be asked to renounce his Australian citizenship unless he were granted a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung (I really enjoy being able to use that word). 

You, as the spouse, would be no different than any other Australian. You could accompany a working spouse if he earns enough to support you, but you woudn't necessarily be granted permission to look for a job yourself (though if you were sufficiently specialized you could find an employer willing to sponsor you separately).

I have no idea if this is possible, but if your husband lost his German citizenship as a child, is there a chance it could be restored? Presumably not, based on what the consulate said, but I'd research it further.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Thank you for your responses and I gather that at this point in time he is no better off than I am when it comes to residency. Neither of us have a specialized trade which is why we would need a visa that would give us working rights without having the company sponsor us. 

We will be in Germany in July, do you think we would get better/ less vague information if we spoke to the local authorities over there? Who would be the best people to speak to?


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

If you had a few hundred euro to spare for a consultation you might speak to an immigration lawyer about recovery of citizenship lost in childhood. 

Otherwise there's really not much point in going to the local foreigner's office (Ausländerbehörde) because they aren't really in the business of giving advice, and depending on the city, they are also massively busy and you can wait months for an appointment.

If you are both Australian citizens only, and you don't have specialized qualifications or skills (e.g. software developers or engineers) then your odds of being able to work in Germany are probably quite low. 

If you are relatively young (not sure but maybe 30) then you could qualify for a Youth Mobility Visa, which gives you an unrestricted work permit for one year. Worth exploring. It's only good for a year, but you can sometimes figure out how to extend your stay - there's a surprising amount of wiggle room once you're actually settled in Germany, particularly if you're a nice middle-class sort of person from a privileged (i.e. "white" I'm afraid) country like Australia or Canada who has German heritage and speaks good German and knows a bit about how the system works.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Nononymous said:


> If you had a few hundred euro to spare for a consultation you might speak to an immigration lawyer about recovery of citizenship lost in childhood.
> 
> Otherwise there's really not much point in going to the local foreigner's office (Ausländerbehörde) because they aren't really in the business of giving advice, and depending on the city, they are also massively busy and you can wait months for an appointment.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, unfortunately we are both over 35, an immigration lawyer might be an option. I see the odds are stacked against us but we will give it our best shot. Thank you for taking the time to respond to us.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

In addition to meeting with a lawyer in the summer, I'd do some serious research into how employable you might be, given age, language abilities, qualifications and experience. There's no sense reclaiming citizenship if you can't realistically make a comfortable go of it.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Nononymous said:


> In addition to meeting with a lawyer in the summer, I'd do some serious research into how employable you might be, given age, language abilities, qualifications and experience. There's no sense reclaiming citizenship if you can't realistically make a comfortable go of it.


Good point, my husband's language skills are pretty decent and he has been taking classes for the last year to polish his writing skills. Whether he is employable or not is another question, he is a procurement agent and has quals in logistics and supply chain management.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Would you be able to give me links to popular job search websites and do employers usually say they are willing to sponsor in the job ad or would it be negotiated later in the process?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

You'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you to spend money on an immigration attorney. There is only so much an attorney can do for you that you can't do for yourselves, other than charging you big fees. For finding a job in Germany, take a look at the "usual" job sites - Monster, Stepstone, LinkedIn - just use a .de instead of .com to get the German versions.

No, job ads don't generally mention the employer's ability or willingness to sponsor someone for employment. In fact, they often have to run ads for a certain minimal period in order to "prove" that they cannot find a qualified local, or someone who already has work authorization in Germany and the EU before they can even begin the sponsorship process.

If you're going to be in Germany during the summer, use your trip to gather some research about your job options while you're there. It's always worth a try, though it may not be particularly easy.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> You'll have to decide whether it's worth it to you to spend money on an immigration attorney. There is only so much an attorney can do for you that you can't do for yourselves, other than charging you big fees. For finding a job in Germany, take a look at the "usual" job sites - Monster, Stepstone, LinkedIn - just use a .de instead of .com to get the German versions.
> 
> No, job ads don't generally mention the employer's ability or willingness to sponsor someone for employment. In fact, they often have to run ads for a certain minimal period in order to "prove" that they cannot find a qualified local, or someone who already has work authorization in Germany and the EU before they can even begin the sponsorship process.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bev, you guys have been super helpful.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I only recommended the lawyer route for the very specific - and possibly non-existent - option of petitioning to restore citizenship lost as a child due to actions taken by parents. 

You really don't need a lawyer otherwise, getting a work permit through an employer is a pretty straightforward process if you're halfway competent at negotiating bureaucracy.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Nononymous said:


> I only recommended the lawyer route for the very specific - and possibly non-existent - option of petitioning to restore citizenship lost as a child due to actions taken by parents.
> 
> You really don't need a lawyer otherwise, getting a work permit through an employer is a pretty straightforward process if you're halfway competent at negotiating bureaucracy.


I thought I would share this, I posted on the "ask and expert" forum and got this reply:

Hi, I have a lot of advice for him. As an Ozzi, he is welcome to come to Germany and apply for anything from here. First of all, please separate immigration and citizenship! When it comes to immigration, please check out: Does Germany want Aliens to Enter and even Stay Here? - vonEngelhardt.com. You will find there a brief intro on his residential possibilities. Based on what you say, I see very good chances that he might be German citizenship since birth and need not to be naturalised. In regards to citizenship, I cannot say more because I lack the knowledge of further relevant details.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

maybe speaking to a lawyer would be our best option to pursue getting his citizenship back?


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Marchris1980 said:


> maybe speaking to a lawyer would be our best option to pursue getting his citizenship back?


I would do some research, and bypass the consulate, they can be surprisingly clueless sometimes.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Nononymous said:


> I would do some research, and bypass the consulate, they can be surprisingly clueless sometimes.


Thank you, I will continue to do my research, hopefully something will happen.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

When I was working in Germany, my secretary had lost her German citizenship when she married an Austrian citizen (back in the days when a spouse automatically got the citizenship of an Austrian spouse - things have changed since then). When her husband got a job in Germany and she moved back there with him, she could not get a work permit, even though she was born and raised in Frankfurt. Ultimately, the company had to get her a work visa/permit like any other foreigner until Austria got into the EU.

I would not place too much hope in your husband getting his German citizenship back.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I have this very faint, very vague recollection that if a child loses citizenship through the actions of a parent - the entire family taking another citizenship - then since the child wasn't legally responsible, they *might* have claim to restore the lost citizenship.

But this could be all in my imagination. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm completely wrong here. It's worth doing some research, but don't get your hopes up, in other words.


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## Marchris1980 (Jan 12, 2017)

Nononymous said:


> I have this very faint, very vague recollection that if a child loses citizenship through the actions of a parent - the entire family taking another citizenship - then since the child wasn't legally responsible, they *might* have claim to restore the lost citizenship.
> 
> But this could be all in my imagination. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm completely wrong here. It's worth doing some research, but don't get your hopes up, in other words.


I don't think it is your imagination, I read about it in a couple of places which is why we began to seriously go down this path. I was very confident in the beginning even the consulate initially told us it was very likely he would regain his citizenship.


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