# Non-Lucrative/Work Visa Digital Nomad Issues



## Spaingrl18 (May 1, 2018)

Hello!

I hope someone can offer some information. There seems to be a new category of people trying to work in the Schengen zone and I am one of them, as a non-EU Digital nomad. 

I am Canadian, working as a teacher online (getting a work visa at an international school in in Spain if you are not from the UK is close to impossible degrees and CV) I have had a Type D Schengen visa in the past for another country but my sights are set on Spain.

Has anyone sorted the best option for Digital nomads to do this legally without issue? Is there a work visa (without a work permit) if I am freelance much like the German Freelancer visa? I would pay into Spain's tax system and Canada's, simultaneously, but is this the best option? Or is Non-Lucrative working for people in similar situations? 

One further step is can I simplify by getting a student visa if I am legit interested in working on my Spanish language and taking courses and then still work freelance online? The only issue with this is I am in my 40's and I have heard consulates turn down student visas through age discrimination if not under 30. 

There seems to be a large gap in freedom to travel/spend money in the Schengen zone for anyone over 35 and under pension-age.

Last question regarding the non-lucrative - can you tell me roughly how long the processing time took? I have heard varied estimates of 4 weeks and the website says 3 months. 

Thank you, any input is more than helpful.


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## booksurfer (Apr 21, 2018)

The short answer to your all questions is:

A type D schengen visa or a non-lucrative visa do not allow you to work legally in Spain.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Spaingrl18 said:


> Hello!
> 
> I hope someone can offer some information. There seems to be a new category of people trying to work in the Schengen zone and I am one of them, as a non-EU Digital nomad.
> 
> ...


Basically if you fall into the catagory highlighted and you honestly cannot support yourself without having to
work whether it be online ( from home ) freelance or conventional work - don't touch the Non-Lucrative Visa 
with a barge pole !!

You cannot tweak the system or bend the rules in Spain, as the rules are clear and it applies to all
people regardless of age, sex, etc, etc.

So in effect only Pensioners and those of independent means ( meaning their income is not derived from
any form of work ) are the ones that are really eligible for the Non-Lucrative Visa.

Maybe and that's a big maybe would be Professional Gamblers who could say their winnings are derived 
on luck rather than work !!


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## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

If you look at one of my former posts, you will find a link to an 'Arraigo laboral' permit. Basically it's a residence permit for people who have been in an 'irregular' situation Spain for 2 years and can show a work relationship of at least 6 months. There is also an Arraigo social version not based on work but where you have to show social ties with the country. 

I just found out about those options and don't know anyone who has tried that route though. So basically for that option you'd just go to the country and 'risk it'.

My own experience was that 10 yrs ago I wanted to settle in Spain but it was impossible due to the high bar for showing that an EU citizen can't do the job you've been offered. 

What I did was I lived in another EU country for 5 years (NL), and obtained EU permanent residence there. This allowed me to move to Spain easily- as it gives you a right to settle in most EU countries (they each have specific reqs). For Spain I just needed to show sufficient means or have a job - no need for employer to show they can't find EU candidate. 

So that would be my recommendation, find another EU country with better economy/easier migration. You'd still be close to Spain and can spend 3 months of every 6 in Spain, or something like that


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Spaingrl18 said:


> Hello!
> 
> I hope someone can offer some information. There seems to be a new category of people trying to work in the Schengen zone and I am one of them, as a non-EU Digital nomad.
> 
> ...


The harsh truth when it comes to Spain is that they've hardly got a handle on people who work self-employed on the ground. Their ridiculous autonomo system is problematic and leads to absolutely tons of people simply not declaring themselves as self-employed (before anyone jumps on me, I don't condone it, even if I do understand it)

Legally, you should declare your earnings and play by the rules. In reality though, the chances of you being "caught" working online are slim to none at the moment, unless you're getting money paid into a Spanish bank account.

Again, before anyone jumps on me I'm not advocating this type of behaviour or condoning it, I'm just telling it how it really is.

The relatively new phenomenon of working online as a freelancer is gaining popularity with every passing month, and the sooner that nations get a handle on the fact that the world is changing, the better.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

expat16 said:


> If you look at one of my former posts, you will find a link to an 'Arraigo laboral' permit. Basically it's a residence permit for people who have been in an 'irregular' situation Spain for 2 years and can show a work relationship of at least 6 months. There is also an Arraigo social version not based on work but where you have to show social ties with the country.
> 
> I just found out about those options and don't know anyone who has tried that route though. So basically for that option you'd just go to the country and 'risk it'.
> 
> ...


Well that's interesting, I wonder whether this could work for Non-EU citizens, like many Brit's who had plans to
work in the EU after leaving school or University and then Brexit happened !!
Although no doubt you would have to be an EU, EFTA, EEA or Swiss citizen in the first place, for this to work.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

David1979 said:


> The harsh truth when it comes to Spain is that they've hardly got a handle on people who work self-employed on the ground. Their ridiculous autonomo system is problematic and leads to absolutely tons of people simply not declaring themselves as self-employed (before anyone jumps on me, I don't condone it, even if I do understand it)
> 
> Legally, you should declare your earnings and play by the rules. In reality though, the chances of you being "caught" working online are slim to none at the moment, unless you're getting money paid into a Spanish bank account.
> 
> ...


FYI - The Spanish Govt do live in the 21st century and I can assure you that their IT systems and being Internet
savvy are on a par with other technology savvy nations, maybe even more so than the UK's at present.

Believe me the Spanish Govt will find out ( sooner or later ) about any income derived from undeclared Freelance
work or working online.

They regard it with the same level of seriousness as Tax Evasion and will use tax evasion powers to root
out the culprits beside which they have Big Brother, the EU giving them a big hand in this field of work.


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## booksurfer (Apr 21, 2018)

All well and good. But none of your post addresses the problem that the OP is not legally entitled to live or reside in Spain, let alone work there freelance or otherwise. A type D Schengen visa does not give her the right to reside in Spain. A non-lucrative visa may grant her the right to a temporary stay but still doesn't give her the right to work there either. Non-lucrative visas are for those who can live on independent means without working—and are issued on that basis. 



David1979 said:


> The harsh truth when it comes to Spain is that they've hardly got a handle on people who work self-employed on the ground. Their ridiculous autonomo system is problematic and leads to absolutely tons of people simply not declaring themselves as self-employed (before anyone jumps on me, I don't condone it, even if I do understand it)


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## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

Williams2 said:


> Well that's interesting, I wonder whether this could work for Non-EU citizens, like many Brit's who had plans to
> work in the EU after leaving school or University and then Brexit happened !!
> Although no doubt you would have to be an EU, EFTA, EEA or Swiss citizen in the first place, for this to work.


I am from US, and did it on the basis of Directive 2003/109/EC, which is the provision that allows third country nationals (i.e. non-EU) to acquire long-term residence of the EU by residing for at least 5 years in an EU country (except UK, Denmark, and Ireland which did not sign up to that), and also by completing any other requirements. For example, for NL I had to pass 5 language and cultural knowledge exams, as well as prepare a job search portfolio and oral interview.

The EU long-term residence pretty much gives you the same freedom of movement as a EU citizen. I just exercised that right by moving to Spain, and the process was similar as if I were a EU citizen (had to register at a different office which is not the typical immigration office etc.).

It's a bit of a hassle because each country has their own conditions under which they will receive the EU long term resident. And of course, Denmark, Ireland, and UK simply don't accept them at all as they didn't sign that directive.

Another interesting thing is that what I was granted here in Spain was plain Spanish long-term residence, and I didn't have to renounce my NL-EU long-term residence. So I still have that as well.


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## Spaingrl18 (May 1, 2018)

booksurfer said:


> The short answer to your all questions is:
> 
> A type D schengen visa or a non-lucrative visa do not allow you to work legally in Spain.


Hi, thanks for the reply, however my Type D visa was a working visa my previous company arranged where I worked for 2 years in France. I do understand the legal issues with the non-lucrative, however.


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## Spaingrl18 (May 1, 2018)

Williams2 said:


> Basically if you fall into the catagory highlighted and you honestly cannot support yourself without having to
> work whether it be online ( from home ) freelance or conventional work - don't touch the Non-Lucrative Visa
> with a barge pole !!
> 
> ...


Can you tell me what the typical amount of money is they expect you to have in the bank account from savings/investments, etc. for one year? I've heard various amounts that are very large in contrast. Thanks!


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## Spaingrl18 (May 1, 2018)

Thank you all for the replies, I wasn't expecting so many so quickly! It is helpful, though still confusing. 

From the few Non-EU people I know trying to reside in Spain legally, it seems to be different rules depending on what part of Spain and who you talk to, which is like anywhere I guess but frustrating. 

Two follow-up questions: 

Has anyone been successful with a student visa for language learning purposes if you are over the age of 30? 

With the autonomo visa (which I have done some reading on but still get confused) could I not freelance and declare my earnings and pay taxes? Pretty much I just want to know how I can reside and pay into the system without issue. Sounds simple but it isn't. I have a few lawyer contacts in Spain I can follow up with but the costs are quite high and want to have my information straight first.


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## booksurfer (Apr 21, 2018)

Spaingrl18 said:


> Hi, thanks for the reply, however my Type D visa was a working visa my previous company arranged where I worked for 2 years in France.


Yes, in France for a limited period of time. it does not give you the right to work in Spain, as I said previously.



> The national visa of “D” category is granted to the certain individuals who are to be studying, working or permanently residing in one of the Schengen countries. The national visa can be of a single entry, granted to the people who are in need of residing in the Schengen country for a certain period of time and for a sole purpose after which they shall return to their country.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Spaingrl18 said:


> Can you tell me what the typical amount of money is they expect you to have in the bank account from savings/investments, etc. for one year? I've heard various amounts that are very large in contrast. Thanks!


For a non-EU citizen not all Spanish Consulates give a figure, but it doesn't vary much.

This is from the Spanish Consulate in Toronto Non-lucrative residence visas



> Sufficient economic means at the time of the visa application, or proof of a source of regular income without having to engage in any business or professional activity in Spain, for you and your family, where applicable, for the requested period of residence and in the following amounts:
> *A monthly amount of 2,151.00 Euros *for 2018 or its equivalent in a foreign currency to support yourself during the requested period of residence in Spain.
> *A monthly amount of 538.00 Euros* for 2018 or its equivalent in a foreign currency *for the support of your dependents *during their requested period of residence in Spain. This amount is additional to the one mention in the previous point 1.



So for a single person that's 29,412€ for a year. 

You'd need to check with your nearest Consulate to find out exactly what they require.


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## booksurfer (Apr 21, 2018)

Spaingrl18 said:


> From the few Non-EU people I know trying to reside in Spain legally, it seems to be different rules depending on what part of Spain and who you talk to, which is like anywhere I guess but frustrating.


There are no different rules for different parts of Spain. What they're all trying to do, is to get around what rules there are.



Spaingrl18 said:


> With the autonomo visa (which I have done some reading on but still get confused) could I not freelance and declare my earnings and pay taxes?


There's no such thing as an 'autonomo visa'.

Autonomo is a declaration to the Spanish tax authorities that you are self employed. But to be able to apply for this you have to be legally resident within Spain. You are not, and therefore cannot apply for it.



Spaingrl18 said:


> Pretty much I just want to know how I can reside and pay into the system without issue.


You can't. You're not an EU national and have no right of residence in Spain.

What you're trying to do, as above, is to find ways around it. There are no legal ways around it. 

Your best bet is to look into the non-lucrative Visa route, gain a residential Visa permit and go from there.


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

We lived in Spain for a year on a non lucrative visa while my husband worked remotely for his company in the US. The consulate wanted proof of regular income and we provided a letter from his employer. We also had enough in savings to meet the minimum requirements, however. We did not pay taxes because of the timing of our year there (did not spend more than 183 days in any calendar year in Spain) but would have had we stayed longer.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> FYI - The Spanish Govt do live in the 21st century and I can assure you that their IT systems and being Internet
> savvy are on a par with other technology savvy nations, maybe even more so than the UK's at present.
> 
> Believe me the Spanish Govt will find out ( sooner or later ) about any income derived from undeclared Freelance
> ...


I wasn't singling out the Spanish Government in this instance, you'll note that I said "nations" in my post.

The truth is that there are a lot of Governments who simply haven't gotten a handle on the online working thing yet. They still operate on a "on the ground" basis when it comes to self employment and so on.

If you do a quick check online, look at some of the remote worker forums and groups you'll see a whole bunch of posts from people who aren't sure where they should be paying tax, with many of them getting a "I don't know" answer when they phone the various Governing bodies.

It was always bound to happen as we enter the early stages of the tech age, but hopefully they catch up soon and realise that now more than ever people are able to travel and work remotely.

The whole point of restricting people who come into a country from working is to preserve the employment for local people, but if someone comes to Spain from America, for example, but works online for clients in the US, Canada and the UK they aren't affecting the Spanish workforce, are they?

Denying those people the ability to work while in the country is ridiculous, and is mainly down to a system that is too rigid for the era we're heading into.


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## booksurfer (Apr 21, 2018)

David1979 said:


> If you do a quick check online, look at some of the remote worker forums and groups you'll see a whole bunch of posts from people who aren't sure where they should be paying tax, with many of them getting a "I don't know" answer when they phone the various Governing bodies.


But that’s not the real issue though is it?

Aren’t the Spanish tax laws (not withstanding their complexity and taking the time to understand them) fairly simple here? If you’re a tax resident in Spain, you pay tax on your Spanish and worldwide earnings allowing for any dual tax treaties. That applies whether you’re working for a company or working for yourself.

Where’s the confusion?

The problem comes about because large numbers of these self employed online workers have no legal right to be in Spain in the first place and are therefore neither resident nor tax residents. To legalise that situation would mean becoming a resident or tax resident which none of them can do.



David1979 said:


> The whole point of restricting people who come into a country from working is to preserve the employment for local people, but if someone comes to Spain from America, for example, but works online for clients in the US, Canada and the UK they aren't affecting the Spanish workforce, are they?


All well and good, but what happens if they fall ill and can’t work? Or if they lose those contracts/jobs and can’t find any others? 

Countries have immigration laws and restrictions for good reason.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Like I said, eventually the overly rigid Government rules and regulations will catch up, it'll take time no doubt, but it'll eventually happen.

Many of these immigrations laws and restrictions are old and outdated. The world is changing rapidly.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

David1979 said:


> Like I said, eventually the overly rigid Government rules and regulations will catch up, it'll take time no doubt, but it'll eventually happen.
> 
> Many of these immigrations laws and restrictions are old and outdated. The world is changing rapidly.


It looks like Estonia is leading the way in Europe.

https://emerging-europe.com/in-brief/estonia-launch-digital-nomad-visa/



> “The world of work is rapidly changing. Technology is helping more people than ever before to work remotely, allowing millions to offer businesses technical and creative expertise independent of geography. A Digital Nomad Visa represents a breakthrough in the way governments support today’s mobile workforce. We’re delighted to support the Ministry of the Interior and are looking forward to making borderless working a reality for digital nomads everywhere,” said Karoli Hindriks, CEO and founder of Jobbatical.


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