# street vendors



## Cooney (Oct 13, 2013)

Im doing a month this january renting in old P.V. Been to Mexico many times but never have enjoyed been pestered by sellers of the same old stuff on the beaches or shopkeepers and timeshare people calling out to you. you feel rude not to answer but its nearly impossible to walk in peace and have a conversation with someone. Other than wearing headphones so it is obvious I cant hear them, are there any tricks that those who live there learn so that they are not constantly pestered? Im hoping to make PV my winter 3 month destination eventually, thats why im trying one month rental 1'st. Do the people selling all this stuff start to recognize you as a local and not a tourist, or do you wear a shirt that says "I live here" or something like that???


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The only way is to avoid the obvious tourist destinations. That does not happen nearly as much if you get off the beaten path.


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## Cooney (Oct 13, 2013)

makes sense. i tried Cabo for 3 weeks last year, remember sitting there trying to enjoy the view from a beachside restaurant and every time I tried to look at the view a vendor would spot me and get in my line of view to try and make eye contact. I understand they are trying to make a living selling to the tourists, but it just gets stupid annoying. I'll find places off the beaten track hopefully, I'm sure just getting away from the beach/malecon in old pv will be much better.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

I wave my hands meaning that I don't want to buy anything and say, 'No, gracias!'


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## Belizegirl (Oct 21, 2010)

I have learned to block out what some of the vendors are saying. We do stop and talk to some vendors who recognize us and have great conversations with them and also, sometimes, gain some valuable advice and information.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Cooney said:


> Im doing a month this january renting in old P.V. Been to Mexico many times but never have enjoyed been pestered by sellers of the same old stuff on the beaches or shopkeepers and timeshare people calling out to you. you feel rude not to answer but its nearly impossible to walk in peace and have a conversation with someone. Other than wearing headphones so it is obvious I cant hear them, are there any tricks that those who live there learn so that they are not constantly pestered? Im hoping to make PV my winter 3 month destination eventually, thats why im trying one month rental 1'st. Do the people selling all this stuff start to recognize you as a local and not a tourist, or do you wear a shirt that says "I live here" or something like that???


You might start by realizing these people have nothing compared to you and cut them a little slack for trying to hustle up a living the only way they know how. That would be a huge start that would no doubt provide you with all kinds of genuine compassion and insight into how to tactfully say no thanks. Here endeth the lesson.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I have watched people to see how they handle the situation, the best way is to totally ignore them, not respond and not make eye contact.
I do not mind them so I am a magnet..


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## kito1 (Aug 4, 2012)

If there are just a few, and they take no for an answer, I politely respond and even occasionally purchase things from them.

Other places, such as some touristy beach areas where they are constant and aggressive and do NOT take no for an answer the first time you say it, I just wag my finger at them and refuse to engage with them at all. 

At first had a hard time being rude but in time I found it became such an unpleasant experience just trying to walk down the street that it didn't bother me that much. Yes, I understand that they are just trying to make a living, and I respect that, but they need to respect people are on vacation and just want to enjoy themselves and not have to fight off salespeople every few steps. I refuse to return to some places because the overly aggressive street vendors make it such and unpleasant experience.


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## sunnyvmx (Mar 14, 2010)

In Catemaco, Veracruz the vendors work the malecon and the lake and town are a playground for Mexicans on vacation. Expats are rare. It is also home to many brujos (witches) and a convention of witches is held every year with many ceremonies. Hungarian gypsies often work the malecon and plaza in long lovely gowns, much jewelry and upswept hairdos. The vendors are very polite and it's easy to be polite with them also, but the gypsies can be and are extremely aggressive, especially when they see a ****** face. When introducing a new resident to the town and lake, I would warn about the gypsies. They thought I was kidding when I said, "Shake your head no, ball up your fists and put them behind your back. Don't let them get ahold of your hands or you will owe them 50 pesos for reading your palm." Many times I saw them run across the street or across the plaza when a foreign tourist was spotted.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Cooney said:


> Im doing a month this january renting in old P.V. Been to Mexico many times but never have enjoyed been pestered by sellers of the same old stuff on the beaches or shopkeepers and timeshare people calling out to you. you feel rude not to answer but its nearly impossible to walk in peace and have a conversation with someone. Other than wearing headphones so it is obvious I cant hear them, are there any tricks that those who live there learn so that they are not constantly pestered? Im hoping to make PV my winter 3 month destination eventually, thats why im trying one month rental 1'st. Do the people selling all this stuff start to recognize you as a local and not a tourist, or do you wear a shirt that says "I live here" or something like that???


Don't make eye contact. Don't acknowledge their existence, their standing in front of you and asking questions. And, in my experience, they go away. After a few times they'll just pass you buy. I understand that the vendors work hard to earn money to survive and I try not to be rude or insulting. I just ignore them. Well, unless they have seomething I want to buy!


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

If you guys don´t like street or beach vendors here in Mexico , avoid popular vacation spots in Morocco like the plague and I can think of a few other places around the globe that are much worse than here whereever you are destined to vacation. Actually, I find both street and beach vendors in places in Mexico I have traveled to be quite civilized and non-aggressive in comparison to many places I have visited around the world. My darlin´ wife, who posted earlier on this thread and is from France, tells me of gangs of young miscreants who, back in the 50s & 60s, loved to run their boats up to al fresco dining areas on Arcachon Bay or down on the Mediterranean and grab food from the tables of unsuspecting diners racing off with it enjoying their stolen snacks with the furious diners helpless to chase them out into the water. She may have engaged in that sort of behavior herself before having matured but I can´t say. However, she has given me some lessons on how to cope with those with whom you are unaquainted who might annoy you as you dine in an outdoor eating establishment or walk dow a public thoroughfare or beach. Her primary advice is to never sit adjacent to a public area while dining which makes you a highly visible prey. The avoiding eye contact rule works fairly well also except in Morocco where that bit of body English will may only rattle the pest who then may become annoyed and verbally attack you mercilessly while continuing to follow you down the street hanging onto your butt like some loathesome tick until you reach the nearest indoor bar for a drink and enter thereby sloughing him off.

You guys have given me another chance to extoll the virtues of my favorite beaches in Mexico where the chances of running into an annoying beach vendor usually selling total crap are practically nil or even altogether nil. Because Mexico has this incredibly huge and varied shoreline on four seas, there are places you can visit on the Pacific, Sea of Cortez, Caribbean or Gulf of Mexico and never be pestered by anyone except your spouse and many of the places I speak of have extraordinarily beautiful baches and crystal waters but you need to learn where these are on your own. I am not seeking human company at this stage of my life, only dogs.

Of course, as I have stated before, my favorite beaches are those seemingly endless and deserted beaches adjacent to Lake Chapala for several reasons:
* Outside of town, there´s usually nobody there except perhaps, occasionally, someone passing by walking to work or fishermen going about their business with no interest in you as you walk by. If you ever spotted a vendor on these beaches,it would be his bleached bones and any aging Coca- Colas in a container he had hoped to sell without accomplishing even one sale of one bottle.
* The beach is hard packed mud and sand to facilitate strolling with your mutts unlike the sea beaches which are often deep, soft, annoying fine sand difficult to walk in. Also there is no chance of any sleeper waves washing your mutts out to sea as on the Pacific although that may be a mixed blessing.
* If you have the good fortune to live near the lake, you don´t have to pack five rambunctious canines into your car and drive to the beach. Just walk out your front door or down a block or two and there you area.

I no longer know what is more annoying; street and beach vendors or Las Vegas. It´s a toss-up.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

I live on the beach and they "bother" Mexicans as much or more than gringos. My neighbor's line is "no, otra dia". A steady stream of them on weekends


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Yes, it's a popular misconception that vendors confine their efforts to just the most popular tourist destinations. And, yes, it's the Mexicans the vendors primarily target for their sales efforts ... but anyone within arm reach or who can hear them are subject to their sales pitch. We're talking about Mexico, so whatever the situation may be elsewhere on the planet ... is, IMO, irrelevant.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Longford said:



Yes, it's a popular misconception that vendors confine their efforts to just the most popular tourist destinations. And, yes, it's the Mexicans the vendors primarily target for their sales efforts ... but anyone within arm reach or who can hear them are subject to their sales pitch. *We're talking about Mexico, so whatever the situation may be elsewhere on the planet ... is, IMO, irrelevant.*

Click to expand...

_

I disagree with that last part of your comment proposing that whatever the situation may be elsewhere on the planet is irrelevant to a discussion of (beach or street "vendors") in Mexico and here is why I take exception to that posture. I have had the privilege of having visited streets and backroads in urban and rural areas and beaches in many parts of the planet in economically deprived and economically advantaged areas and, while it may be that what you call "vendors" but I would more readily define as "street hustlers" annoy all within reach, local or foreign, they, whether on the beaches of Mombasa, Puerto Vallarta or Alexandria, only have so much time to hustle up a daily meal so they look for the most likely source of money in whatever local currency and, on a beach, at least, that is often the gullible tourist from wherever easily charmed or intimidated and not the well-to-do local families inhabiting the same area but cognizant of the local situation and, thus, unmoved by the hustle. You do not find the hustlers where there is no or little human activity engaged in by people, whether locals or people just passing through, presumed to have some money to spare and willing to part with it whether you are in Uganda or Mexico and I know this positively from personal experience. The point of my earlier post on this thread was that, in my experience, Mexican street or beach "vendors" are quite polite in comparisan to similar "vendors" in many parts of the world and are relatively quick to politely back off if rejection of their sales pitch is obvious. I was paying my compliments to Mexico and pointing out that street and beach vendors hereabouts are pretty damn civil compared to many places I have been privileged to travel over the years. In other words, those of you complaining about the annoyance of Mexican street and beach hustlers calm down. Go spend a week in Tangiers and you will realize how civilized Mexico is (for the most part) upon your return here.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> [/B]
> 
> I disagree with that last part of your comment proposing that whatever the situation may be elsewhere on the planet is irrelevant to a discussion of (beach or street "vendors") in Mexico ...


:focus:


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

We are square on topic, Longford. Never drifted a millimeter off topic. This is about street vendors in Mexico who, if they are going to be judged one way or the other by expatriates, must be judged in context and that context includes the comparison with the annoyances of street hustlers and their mannerisms wherever one may be on the planet.

Here at Lake Chapala at the Ajijic delegacion with a significant expat community, there are those expats posting on local forums who are mightily disturbed by the fact that, when they approach the grounds of the largely expat managed Lake Chapala Society, a legacy, since somewhat evolved, of an expat author/poet who lived here in the 1950s, which is accessed by several small entrance doors though a high wall, they must, in order to enter the grounds, run the gamut of a few young men selling fresh fruit and soliciting their business and these posters find this minor encumbrance unacceptable so they carry on on some forums as if they had been delayed by Nazis demanding papers or thieves damanding tolls to pass. When I saw this thread developing about "street vendors" in Mexico, I thought it important to give my opinion about this phenomenon in Mexico where, in my opinion, street vendor activity is relatively civilized in comparison to many places I have traveled and unworthy of invective, and that opinion is, don´t get your shorts in a knot - just walk around them, for God´s sake and save your money for the next time you are hiking through the Lacandon Forest and have to pay some indigenous vigilantes in the middle of the woods just to pass and not end up in the ground.

My wife just called me from San Cristóbal de Las Casas and was telling me about roadblocks and civil disorder in Chiapas which sometimes seems a world unto itself and that certainly puts the kids selling berries at the entrance of the Lake Chapala Society in a proper light. Always carry a cell phone, I say.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

I know, I know ... you've been everwhere, done everything, etc., etc. We've all listened to the bragging. But leave the Nazi reference out of the discussion. Unless, of course ... you have some personal experience with the organization. ;-)


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Longford said:



I know, I know ... you've been everwhere, done everything, etc., etc. We've all listened to the bragging. But leave the Nazi reference out of the discussion. Unless, of course ... you have some personal experience with the organization. ;-)

Click to expand...

_My comment regarding "Nazis" was that some expats treat street vendors who solicit their business as they pass as if they were "Nazis" demanding papers or thieves demanding tolls to pass. My point was that these folks were greatly exaggerating the inconvenience they experienced in having been solicited by a street or beach vendor for a some cheap fruit or merchandise and in my post I complimented Mexican street vendors for their civility and wilingness to quickly back off if rejected for a sale.

I guess you think that I am bragging when, as an adjunct to my comment, I supported my position that street vendors in Mexico were unusually polite in their encounters with pedestrians or beachgoers in comparison to many countries I have visited in the world which I visited as a young and very poor backpacker back in the 1960s, not a cruise line passenger. How, except by explaining this, am I to support my premise that Mexican street vendors are comparitively civilized and should be given some slack? 


As for having had some personal experience with "the organization", what organization would that be? I actually had quite a bit of experience with violent and dangerous racist organizations in Alabama in the 1950s and 1960s from the ku Klux Klan to even more dangerous authority figures such as "Bull" Connor, the Public Safety Director of Birmingham for many years and Jim Clark, the sheriff of Dallas County (Selma) to the more insidious White Citizen´s Council which, in those days was known as the country club kluxers. Those violent goons such as Connor and Clark never asked for papers in those days, they just beat the crap out of you if you were black or (even more so) a white sympathizer marching with blacks simply demanding the right to vote or sit at a Woolworth´s or Greyhound lunch counter. I know because I was there at the time and took part in many of those events whether or not you believe it. 

As for street vendors in Mexico, try your luck at San Cristóbal de Las Casas where the streets are filled with vendors selling everything from chewing gum to all sorts or mostly crappy paraphernalia, much of it made in China but claimed to be made in places like touristy San Juan Chamula just outside of San Cristóbal and a magnet for Chiapas first-time tourists. They crowd the streets and many are young children or the elderly or infirm or women with infants who may work the street 15 hours or more every single day and those young children risk a serious beating from their parents or guardians if they fail to meet daily sales goals. They are always going to be there but, while they may solicit your business, they are never pushy or rude and are gone in a flash if rejected. If you want to help, buy some chewing gum.

All the above reminds me of an old Dick Gregory joke from the 60s. He said that the real heroics of the young black men and women staging lunch counter sit-ins at Greyhound Bus Stations around the South in those days was not demonstrated by their willingness to sit there and be assaulted by thuggish kluxers or cops and, perhaps, thrown in jail but their willingness to actually eat at a lunch counter at a Greyhound Bus Station.


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## phreaq (Jul 4, 2012)

I've lived in PV for just over a year now, and I have no issues with the merchants/vendors.

After the 3rd or 4th week, some of them ask how long my vacation was, which I then explained that I live here now.

They now know I'm a local, and don't bother me (I even get the locals discount)


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

I live in San Cristobal de las Casas which has many street vendors. I actually know many of them and treat them as human and not as if they were a animal. This works great for me. The only come up to me to speak. For the rare time a vendor tries to sell me something I just shake my finger back and forth and say no gracies. I can say that all of my ****** friends can't stand them to be near them. They are all good people who are just trying to make a few peso's. Give them a break they are part of the culture. While there may be one or two who get beat by there parents I think it is rare that that happens.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Heyduke said:


> I live in San Cristobal de las Casas which has many street vendors. I actually know many of them and treat them as human and not as if they were a animal. This works great for me. The only come up to me to speak. For the rare time a vendor tries to sell me something I just shake my finger back and forth and say no gracies. I can say that all of my ****** friends can't stand them to be near them. They are all good people who are just trying to make a few peso's. Give them a break they are part of the culture.


Well said...end of story in my book.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

That is, indeed the answer; speak to them in Spanish and they will realize that you are not the typical tourist who will vanish in a week, so must be sold to right now.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Heyduke said:


> I live in San Cristobal de las Casas which has many street vendors. I actually know many of them and treat them as human and not as if they were a animal. This works great for me. The only come up to me to speak. For the rare time a vendor tries to sell me something I just shake my finger back and forth and say no gracies. I can say that all of my ****** friends can't stand them to be near them. They are all good people who are just trying to make a few peso's. Give them a break they are part of the culture. While there may be one or two who get beat by there parents I think it is rare that that happens.


As a matter of fact, they are not just part of the culture, they are Mexican citizens in this case and we are the tourists.
As I see it, those guys are in their every right to try to make a living, if we don't like them or don't tolerate them to get close, the ones that should be leaving is ...US


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Speaking to them in Spanish is not the answer in San Cristobal but once you live there many recognize you and say hello and do not bother you some still offer you what they have but do not insist. The kids sometimes can be a nuisance if you are trying to have a conversation but if you tell them no and ignore them after that they go away, 
As Heyduke say they are trying to make a living , they are working not begging and they are part of the background. As I say I can be a magnet but it is really not that big of a deal. 
If you go to villages where they are no tourists you will meet almost none of them.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

Most of the vendors in San Cristobal live in the Indigenous slum of La Hormiga ( The Ants) or San Antonio.. Their parents or themselves were kicked out of the village ( Chamula) for becoming evangelicals. That is a much bigger problem. That is why I dislike Missionaries. Most don't see the trouble they cause in Indigenous villages.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> As a matter of fact, they are not just part of the culture, they are Mexican citizens in this case and we are the tourists.
> As I see it, those guys are in their every right to try to make a living, if we don't like them or don't tolerate them to get close, the ones that should be leaving is ...US


My sentiments exactly.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

That is why I dislike Missionaries. Most don't see the trouble they cause in Indigenous villages.[/QUOTE]


I agree, they are not bad people by themselves but they are really creating a lot of problems down there and of course it is one of ther favorite places .

Wait until the Muslims get into the action. There are only 400 of them now and let´s hope they do not take off...


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Heyduke said:


> Most of the vendors in San Cristobal live in the Indigenous slum of La Hormiga ( The Ants) or San Antonio.. Their parents or themselves were kicked out of the village ( Chamula) for becoming evangelicals. That is a much bigger problem. That is why I dislike Missionaries. Most don't see the trouble they cause in Indigenous villages.


Yes, the relocation of thousands of villagers who dared to veer from the Catholic teachings in parts of Chiapas, particularly near las Casas. The powers that be ignored the problem and the plight of so many people caught-up in the religious conflicts and associated violence and that greatly contributed to led-up to the opening of the door to further violence perpetrated by the foreign-funded/led EZLN at the time. The "missionaries" from some of the fundamentalist Christian groups didn't think about the consequences of their actions, beforehand.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

*EZLN in Chiapas*

The EZLN or Zapatistas in Chiapas are not the bad guys. A Large part of the Indigenous people are Zapatistas or are supporters. Most of the violence is against the EZLN by paramilitaries and the Govt does nothing to stop it. Reciently the Catholics of Chenalho Pueblo were attacked by the Evangelicals who beat them and locked their priest into the bathroom of the school. They were threatened with death and made to leave their homes and land. The Govt did nothing to stop it. The extreamly poor town of Acteal took them in with the help of the EZLN. Now they have all been threatened by the Evangelicals.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Longford said:



Yes, the relocation of thousands of villagers who dared to veer from the Catholic teachings in parts of Chiapas, particularly near las Casas. The powers that be ignored the problem and the plight of so many people caught-up in the religious conflicts and associated violence and that greatly contributed to led-up to the opening of the door to further violence perpetrated by the foreign-funded/led EZLN at the time. The "missionaries" from some of the fundamentalist Christian groups didn't think about the consequences of their actions, beforehand.

Click to expand...

_A somewhat ovrsimplified recounting of recent history in the Chiapas Highlands. That was a short summation of recent Chiapas history that, if I may paraphrase, the "powers that be" ignored the plights of many (read indigenous) people caught up in the community religious conflicts and violence perpetuated by the _"foreign-funded _EZLN (Ejército Zapatista de Liberción Nacional) movement or "Zapatistas". Just a couple of thoughts on this subject:

* The EZLN, while something of an anachronism today, remains a grass roots political movement supported by many indigenous in the Chiapas Highlands no matter from where some of the seed money to get the Zapatistas going originated. The use of the term "foreign funded", whether intended or not, disparages the important principles upon which this organization supporting the large Chiapas indigenous community was founded by inferring that funding for this endeavor came from funds derived from "foreign" sources. The Zapatistas did not become the force they were and still are today because of foreign funding but because they addressed a need among Chiapas indigenous for a voice in their support after centuries of base social and financial discrimination. 
* The evangelical protestant missionaries of today in the Chiapas Highlands know very well the consequences of their actions in stirring up discontent and encouraging community disruption against traditional religious, political and social norms in indigenous communiies whether in Chiapas or Upper Volta. They are encouraging revolution against the entrenched, traditional Catholic power structure in Chiapas and to win they must succeed in becoming disruptive forces in the communities they seek to win over. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose but they are not in the least bit naive, at least on the mangerial level.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

My Tzotzil teacher is a young man from a village right next to Acteal. His parents are Evangelists and he is an atheist. He hates both Catholic and Evangelists religions and has a theory that the government gave visas to the missionaries to go into the indigeneous villages to break up the unity of the villages. He said to me it was in the government interest to divide the indigenous and they did it through religion. Not a bad theory when you see the results...
This young man and his brother are very bright. They parents still walk around barefooted in the mountains, do not speak Spanish and the kids managed to get scholarships and one of them teaches in Tzeltal and Tzotzil communities and his brother went to study in Spain and is a psychoogist. Pretty impressve in my book when you know how the kids came from extreme poverty.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

My reaction:



Heyduke said:


> The EZLN or Zapatistas in Chiapas are not the bad guys./quote]
> 
> Yes they were, are.
> 
> ...


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

There are not good or bad guys there there is a struggle for power, control and autonomy in some cases.

The Catholics are usually the aggresors and they have killed many Evangelists over the years and expelled over 45 000 people back in the 90's.

I have heard from locals of both sides of the fence about the massacre at Acteal and although there is no justification possible about the massacres, there had been simmering problems between Acteal and the surrounding area for a long time.To this day many of the killers are free.

A lot of the problems came from the fact that the indigenous population had been declining and the limits of the municipalities, ranchos etc..were pretty vague. With the improvement of medecine and health the indigenous population started growing again and with the missionaries bringing in new religions, new power centers were formed. The non Catholics who refused to participate in the civic life of the village (which is interlaced with the Catholic Church) were expelled hence losing their land and home. The refugies formed new communities as the name indicates..New Chamula, New Jerusalem, New Ybeljoj and many of the refugies were easily recruted by the EZLN . Manny of the new communities took over land that "belonged" to a village or another starting conflicts between the communities..

Nothing to do with Chiapas being part of Guatemala, every thing to do with struggle for autonomy , land and power all fuelled and encouraged by the Evangelists and Catholics..

There is no good guy or bad guy just a struggle to be on top.

Some villages like Amatenango are more tolerant and the Catholics are about 50% of the population and the rest is a mixture of various Evangelist groups and the people tolerate each other.
Other places like the Chamula municipality are not as "tolerant" and conflicts happen all the time, most Catholics beating on Evangelists. 
The Chenalho, Pantelho municipalities are powder kegs ready to explode at any time due to the mix of Tzotzil ,Tzeltal, Abejas, Zapatistas and army, paramilitary groups and so on , although the army base next to Acteal seem to be closed now..That area is one of the most beautiful but also the most volatil.

I believe there is hope tough , I know several young men and women who came from the various villages where intolerance reign and are rejecting the churches, hopefully they can influence the future although a tradition of feuding communities, violence, intolerance and ignorance are big obstacles to overcome.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

While you make some good points I will say I disagree with your view of Evangelicals and the Zapatistas. I am not a religious person. When the Evangelical move into a village they will no longer participate in fiestas and other community affairs. When that happens the village no longer exist. They are no longer Indians. I have a Chamulan family and know many Indiian people in many communities. I know Zapatistas and what they stand for. This is my last statement and know what I am talking about.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I did make the point that the Evangelists do not want to participate in community affairs but it is because many of them are linked to the Catholic church. I know of a Zapotec village in Oaxaca where there were conflicts because of the gays and the Evangelists.
The Evangelists did not want to participate in any Fiesta when I say participate I mean pay for the firecrackers the flowers and all the costs of the rituals didi not want to clean up the cemetary because it was Catholic and so on so the Church told them they could not be burried there...then the gay issue came up because men and women are eligeable for cargos when they get married and as the gays do not get married they did not ever get elected to cargos ...and so on. The village having some savy council resolved the problems by including gays after 30 and by having a non Cathilic part in the cemetaries. If people want to work it out they can. 
In Amatenango half of the village in non catholic. Chamula is anti change and will use any excuse not to include people who do not vote the way they are told or do not have the same religion.
The argument that there is no village if Evangelists move in is typical of their intolerance there are many villages that work out their differences but it is so much easier to kick the dissidents out take over their homes and lands and redistribute it to people who will follow your rules..It consolidate your power and weatlh so who is going to go against that??

I have to work with many different people from different religions different backgrounds and I am very careful not to take anyone side I just listen and there are as many stories as there are people. You can hear some valid arguments from both sides and a whole lot of self justification. 
I have been ask several times in various group to listen to their problems and help resolve them. You have to listen carefully and ask logical and fair questions and let people come up with solutions. There is a major lack of communications even within families and when all the facts are out usually people will decide to work it out but people have to be willing to work it out.

You have offered us the traditional Chamulan argument now tell us what you Evangelist Chamulan friends are telling you.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

*Chamula*

Chamula is neither Catholic or evangelical. They just pretend to be Catholic.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Chamula is majority Traditional Catholic it is not a pretend religion it is a religion that includes the whole Mayan believes to the Catholic rituals or vice & versa which ever way you want to look at it.
Many people in Chamula have converted to another religion so the Evangelists are not outsiders but ex Traditional Catholics and I failed to see that the village or the municipality has ceased to exist.

Now that you have told us the Traditional Chamulan side of the story I think you should tell us the side of the story seen by your Evangelical friends from there it should be interesting to hear their side of the story.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

Chamula was kicked out of the Catholic Church after the killing of the Evangelical leader which they have denied. This is what the Chamulan leaders wanted. A priest is allowed in Chamula once a year for Baptisms. That priest comes from from a church in Tuxtula which is not a traditional Catholic Church. This gives the Chamulan were then able to practice their old religion in the church without the Catholic church interfering.There are some traditional Catholics in Chamula. I take some of my evangelical friends to Chamula for fiestas. I asked them to go into the church and to my surprise they did. When they came out I asked them what they thought and most said it was malo. Most of them when riding in my truck put evangelical radio on and sing to the hymns. I like all of them but I feel they are no longer traditional Indians because they have lost a big part of their culture. I don't claim to be a expert but I know what I see and experience everyday. About 1 month ago a group of about 30 evangelicals were attempting to move back to Chamula. They were stopped by a large group of Chamulans who beat them and then tied them up and poured gas on them and told them they were going to burn them alive. They didn't but I totally understand why they behave that way. Anyway its their culture and we should leave them alone.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Do you mean they are Roman Catholics. "Chiapas Traditional Catholics "are not Roman Catholics , anyone who lives there for a while knows that. They also are Christian Traditional Catholics who are part of the "Traditional Catholics but do not drink".. 


Do you understand why the paramilitary groups also indigenous killed all these women and children in Acteal? 
Is it ok to hurt or kill people because they chose to be different? By saying that you are taking the side of the attackers and sorry but I do not believe it is ok to kill or threaten to kill people from your community who chose to have a different religion or are from a different political party.


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## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

I dont know where you get the idea that I think iy was ok to kill the people of Acteal because I am very much against that. They were killed for being Zapatista supporters. What I said is that I understand why they do what they do in Chamula to Evangelicals: If they are allowed into Chamula they would destroy their culture. This is my last post on this subject. I can see I am not going to change your mind.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> As a matter of fact, they are not just part of the culture, they are Mexican citizens in this case and we are the tourists.
> As I see it, those guys are in their every right to try to make a living, if we don't like them or don't tolerate them to get close, the ones that should be leaving is ...US


In my opinion you are correct for the most part and it seems to me what you are saying is similar to the "love it or leave it" statement that people made ( and probably still make) when talking about any disagreement with the government or society. However if you really think about the subject it may not be so lets say "black or white" or digital "one or zero". 

About Mexico, I have relative limited experience to most of the readers of this forum but still my wife and I have been to many places in Mexico and do not find the vendors to be a big problem. I have absolutly no doubt in my mind that I have been to many more places than the Hound Dog <grin> I worked internationally worldwide for 25 years. My wife and I have also traveled extensively after I retired from that work. I do agree with The Hound Dog that Mexico vendors are nothing of a problem compared to some other places I have been to.

Yes street vendors are citizens and most of us are not --- but if the street vendors become oppressive then it can become a problem for the country that they are citizens of. So in my opinion it is good to have sort of guidelines of engagement between the authorities and the vendors. From my observations over many years, this is already being done in Mexico. Or actually not by the government but it is just because the Mexican vendor people are more polite and maybe less agressive than other places I have been to.

You as a Mexican citizen should try to keep it that way in my opinion for what it is worth. 

For someone who is bothered, 
Just say "no gracias" or "no thank you" maybe a few times and they will leave.
also maybe avoid eye contact in the beginning sometimes you can not avoid it and treat them with respect in any case.


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## Shawndy (Nov 2, 2013)

Longford said:


> Don't make eye contact. Don't acknowledge their existence, their standing in front of you and asking questions. And, in my experience, they go away. After a few times they'll just pass you buy. I understand that the vendors work hard to earn money to survive and I try not to be rude or insulting. I just ignore them. Well, unless they have seomething I want to buy!


Agreed about the eye contact. It's common knowledge that these people need to hustle up a buck but i always try and patronize shopkeepers that are less aggressive and i tell them that's a major reason why i chose them a a vendor


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

wonderphil said:


> In my opinion you are correct for the most part and it seems to me what you are saying is similar to the "love it or leave it" statement that people made ( and probably still make) when talking about any disagreement with the government or society. However if you really think about the subject it may not be so lets say "black or white" or digital "one or zero".
> 
> About Mexico, I have relative limited experience to most of the readers of this forum but still my wife and I have been to many places in Mexico and do not find the vendors to be a big problem. I have absolutly no doubt in my mind that I have been to many more places than the Hound Dog <grin> I worked internationally worldwide for 25 years. My wife and I have also traveled extensively after I retired from that work. I do agree with The Hound Dog that Mexico vendors are nothing of a problem compared to some other places I have been to.
> 
> ...


Me as a Mexican citizen? Oh boy, That's a task I don't want
Otherwise, all of us, as Citizens of ...where ever, should solve all problems
All I think about this, is that it's a never ending problem, we should not even complain about it, just take it as it is and move on. And again, if we don't like it, just leave


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Shawndy said:


> Agreed about the eye contact. It's common knowledge that these people need to hustle up a buck but i always try and patronize shopkeepers that are less aggressive and i tell them that's a major reason why i chose them a a vendor


I have a different point of view on this one, my technique is to stop bluntly, make eye contact, and in a very serious way tell them NO, GRACIAS, then walk away.
100 % of the time they will understand 
I don't like to play celebrity and have them follow me around while I, ineffectively, keep repeating, NO GRACIAS, NO GRACIAS, NO GRACIAS, and not even seeing them as if they don't exist


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## MichelleRN (Nov 4, 2013)

kito1 said:


> I refuse to return to some places because the overly aggressive street vendors make it such and unpleasant experience.


Avoidance is a good tactic. When you can't avoid them I have found that the best way to make them go from a hyper-verbose state to near total silence is to give them a sincere, nice smile and say 'No thanks, maybe next time.' Works for me most of the time.


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## sunnyinvallarta (Nov 9, 2013)

My view of this in PV is that many vendadores are pushy when walking by. They hawk their Tequila and offer "free shots". I had walked one day, all freaking day, hot, sweaty and soooo tired! This guy on the Malecon was trying to get us into his shop. I just kept walking. He yelled "you must be a Canadian!, you are so cold!". Well, NO, I am not a Canadian. I wanted to turn around and punch him in the face. I was pissed. REALLY? How rude!

But there are those guys, just ignore them and keep walking.
In the airport, just before you get OUT of the airport, they will attack you and want you to do the timeshares. Just say no and keep walking.

On the beach, the vendors are really nice. They do about 3-4 runs back and forth all day, every day. It looks as if they sell the same old stuff. Some of them do. The profit is not that great on some items, but is more on others. If you want to purchase, watch for a few days and look at the items and know what you want to spend. If it is a unique item, buy it then. You may not see it again.

I have friends that sell on the beach in PV. They may make nada each day, or $15 for the day. Never know. 

If you are wanting them to not bother you, stay away from the Malecon or say Gracias, Nada or no gracias. If you are on the beach, put on your sunglasses and kick back, they will stay away. 

Note: my friend's wife works at a restaurant in PV. She works 7 days a week for 9 hours and gets 80 pesos. That is roughly $6.50-$7 a day. Not much!

Do not forget to tip the maids and whoever else is very helpful to you! 

Also, as I said previously, if there is something that you WANT to buy, set a price you want to pay. Stick with it. Also realize that when they say "it is 925", understand that anyone can get a 925 stamp and stamp something silver colored. 

When the vendors say "almost free" that can get old too. 
Ignore it if you get pissed off.


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## sunnyinvallarta (Nov 9, 2013)

Also: think this way...in San Francisco, there are many "homeless" people that are truly not homeless, but want to be on the street. They are allowed to ask ONLY ONCE for something, otherwise, they are pestering and can be arrested. 

If vendors ask too many times, tell them "you got one chance", or simply ignore them. Most vendors will start hanging around waiting for their turn if indeed you are buying or looking at other's wares, they want to be next.


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