# Politics, Corruption, and Murder



## cscscs007

It seems these two words are hand in hand with each other here in Mexico. In August the Alcalde of Ayutla is murdered along with his bodyguard. It turns out those involved just happened to be government officials.

Now the former mayor of Cabo Corrientes has been murdered, The in-laws of the Tecolotlan mayor were murdered, and the PAN mayor of Talpa de Allende has been kidnapped and who knows what fate awaits him. All of this in less than a week in a relatively close area.

This is becoming a repeat over and over again. This is the scenario in Ayutla. The police chief is murdered and his body is left in the soccer field. The Policia Fuerza show up and drive around in their trucks for a week or two, and then they leave. A month later the mayor of Ayutla gets murdered. The Policia Fuerza show back up, drive around in their trucks for a week or two and leave.......

Is this happening anywhere else? Not in the USA, not in England, Canada, or equally developed country. I know of no other country that has to deal with elected officials, news officials, or government officials who constantly have to look over their shoulders. 

What's it going to take in order for this to get under control? What did it take in Columbia to get somewhat of a grip on the violence? Pablo Escobar was way out of control if I remember correctly, and Columbia was having a heck of a time with elected officials too I think.


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## vantexan

cscscs007 said:


> It seems these two words are hand in hand with each other here in Mexico. In August the Alcalde of Ayutla is murdered along with his bodyguard. It turns out those involved just happened to be government officials.
> 
> Now the former mayor of Cabo Corrientes has been murdered, The in-laws of the Tecolotlan mayor were murdered, and the PAN mayor of Talpa de Allende has been kidnapped and who knows what fate awaits him. All of this in less than a week in a relatively close area.
> 
> This is becoming a repeat over and over again. This is the scenario in Ayutla. The police chief is murdered and his body is left in the soccer field. The Policia Fuerza show up and drive around in their trucks for a week or two, and then they leave. A month later the mayor of Ayutla gets murdered. The Policia Fuerza show back up, drive around in their trucks for a week or two and leave.......
> 
> Is this happening anywhere else? Not in the USA, not in England, Canada, or equally developed country. I know of no other country that has to deal with elected officials, news officials, or government officials who constantly have to look over their shoulders.
> 
> What's it going to take in order for this to get under control? What did it take in Columbia to get somewhat of a grip on the violence? Pablo Escobar was way out of control if I remember correctly, and Columbia was having a heck of a time with elected officials too I think.


Colombia had their President Uribe, who greatly improved safety conditions in most of the country. But everyone saw how Mexico's recent war on the cartels turned out. Mexico is right up against the U.S. with it's demand for drugs so Mexico will always be unique. There's just too much money corrupting too many and killing anyone standing in the way.


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## cscscs007

Pablo Escobar I thought had a presidential candidate killed. I thought his name was Galan. 

It sure looks like the leader of this cartel is settling scores in his stomping grounds. 
El Mencho used to be the police chief of Cabo Corrientes, he is from El Grullo (so was the congressman that was kidnapped and killed in Guadalajara), and Tecolotlan, and Ayutla are not too far up the carretera 80. 

USA and it's drug appetite has long been around, and Griselda Blanco made a killing off of selling cocaine, and killed a lot over cocaine. Pablo Escobar did also. Both from Columbia and both brought massive amounts of cocaine into the US.


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## vantexan

cscscs007 said:


> Pablo Escobar I thought had a presidential candidate killed. I thought his name was Galan.
> 
> It sure looks like the leader of this cartel is settling scores in his stomping grounds.
> El Mencho used to be the police chief of Cabo Corrientes, he is from El Grullo (so was the congressman that was kidnapped and killed in Guadalajara), and Tecolotlan, and Ayutla are not too far up the carretera 80.
> 
> USA and it's drug appetite has long been around, and Griselda Blanco made a killing off of selling cocaine, and killed a lot over cocaine. Pablo Escobar did also. Both from Columbia and both brought massive amounts of cocaine into the US.


But Pablo Escobar is long dead and Colombia has greatly improved. Keep in mind that Mexico is more than twice the size of Colombia and while some regions are greatly affected by the cartels others aren't. Plenty of areas for expats to live peaceably.


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## cscscs007

And what parts of Mexico can an expat go so as to not be affected by violence from the cartels? Chapala was a dumping grounds for heads and bodies not too long ago. San Miguel was the scene of a cartel leader arrest. Acupulco has its problems. Mexico City has its body count issue also. Torreon, Mexicali, Nuevo Laredo, Tijuana, and many, many more have been dealing with this. Mexico may be bigger than Columbia, but the problem is still the same. Just because a person is an expat isn't a deterrent to a criminal. How many of us know of someone who has lost their life to this problem? 

History always has a way of repeating itself. Columbia is a great example of this.


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## Isla Verde

cscscs007 said:


> And what parts of Mexico can an expat go so as to not be affected by violence from the cartels? ... Mexico City has its body count issue also. . . . Mexico may be bigger than Columbia, but the problem is still the same. Just because a person is an expat isn't a deterrent to a criminal. How many of us know of someone who has lost their life to this problem?


What do you mean that Mexico City has "a body count issue"? I've lived here for over seven years and have never run into any problems. I don't know anyone who's lost his life because of narco-cartel activity. Have you?


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> What do you mean that Mexico City has "a body count issue"? I've lived here for over seven years and have never run into any problems.


This may be a reference to the bodies recently found when one of the drainage canals in Ecatepec, on the north edge of the D.F. (in Edo. de Mexico) was emptied of water.



> I don't know anyone who's lost his life because of narco-cartel activity. Have you?


I don't personally know of someone who lost his/her life as the result of narco-cartel activity. Certainly, there have been such deaths in the city if published reports in Mexico City newspapers are accurate. I do know very many people who live in the D.F. and Edo. de Mexico who've been victimized by crimes of all sorts, including kidnapping, various forms of robbery, etc. No loss of life in my circle of acquaintenances ... thank God.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> I do know very many people who live in the D.F. and Edo. de Mexico who've been victimized by crimes of all sorts, including kidnapping, various forms of robbery, etc. No loss of life in my circle of acquaintenances ... thank God.


I don't know anyone living in this area who's been a crime victim, other than being "taken for a ride" by an unscrupulous taxi driver. :fingerscrossed:


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> I don't know anyone living in this area who's been a crime victim, other than being "taken for a ride" by an unscrupulous taxi driver. :fingerscrossed:


Honestly ... You're probably the first/only person I've known in the D.F. in the past 20 years who hasn't been victimized, at least once. Lucky you.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> Honestly ... You're probably the first/only person I've known in the D.F. in the past 20 years who hasn't been victimized, at least once. Lucky you.


Agreed. It sounds like you have been lucky Isla.

I have had cars broken into twice and was mugged once. That was in the US.  

Since coming to Mexico, I have been the victim of one house break-in. I know several people who were victims of phone or purse snatchings on the street. One young friend had his bicycle stolen at knife point. The police later recovered it.

But all in all, my impression, and it is no more than just my impression, is that there is less of this kind of street crime in Mexico than in major US cities.


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## cscscs007

Here is a news article on a body count.

Mass kidnapping, beheadings disturb Mexico City - CBS News

Here's another one,

In a separate incident, authorities found seven bodies dumped in a car in a Mexico City suburb on Sunday morning, a local police official said.

Two of the men were found naked. Police have identified three of the men, who ranged in ages from 14 to 42, the official said.

It appeared all seven men, who were found in the suburb of Ecatepec, had been shot, the official said.

Last year, police discovered eight corpses dumped in the down-at-the-heels suburb of 2 million people.

Ecatepec lies in the State of Mexico, which borders the capital to the north and where more than half the population of greater Mexico City lives.

Until 2011, Enrique Pena Nieto, now the president of Mexico, was the governor of the State of Mexico.

He has vowed to take a different tack than his presidential predecessor, Felipe Calderon, who sent in the troops to tackle the warring drug cartels. Pena Nieto has focused instead on stopping kidnapping and extortion.
Mexican journalists' sons killed; seven bodies found near Mexico City | Reuters

and another.

Bodies wrapped in plastic found in Mexico City suburbs as country's brutal drug war is laid bare in vivid reminder | Daily Mail Online

Even Americans need to be aware of their surroundings and what's going on in the news. To not do so is an invitation for being placed in unnecessary danger. IMHO one needs to be aware that cartel activity does exist throughout the majority of Mexico, and if the lives of elected officials and journalists are at risk, I don't think waving a US Passport in their face and saying I am an American will make them stop their intended action. Now I am not saying that Americans are picked out of the crowd, I am saying these people do not care who you are are where you are from or what you do, your life means little to them if you have something they want, including your silence.

More Americans Murdered In Mexico Than In Any Other Country In The World | Fox News Latino

The US Dept of State lists American deaths in Mexico.

Homicide

Jan 6, 2011 in Chapala
July 17, 2012 in Chapala
July 31, 2007 in Ciudad Netzahualcoyotl, Mexico City
June 17, 2003 Distrito Federal
Feb 2, 2011 Distrito Federal
April 5, 2007 Guadalajara
March 7, 2009 Guadalajara
Feb 23, 2003 Guadalajara
March 4, 2011 Guadalajara
June 11, 2011 Guadalajara
Aug 5, 2012 Guadalajara
March 5, 2013 Guadalajara
April 1, 2013 Guadalajara
May 1, 2014 Guadalajara
June 25, 2010 Guadalajara
Sept 27, 2010 Guadalajara
Feb 24, 2014 Iguala Guerrero
Sept 6, 2006 Mexico City
Feb 4, 2014 Distrito Federal
April 16, 2012 Distrito Federal
Feb 11, 2009 Puerto Vallarta
Dec 30, 2012 Puerto Vallarta
Sept 14, 2003 Puerto Vallarta
April 21, 2014 Puerto Vallarta
Jan 30, 2013 San Miguel de Allende
Dec 13, 2013 San Miguel de Allende
Jan 18, 2011 San Miguel de Allende
Jan 21, 2011 San Migual de Allende
Feb 12, 2014 Zihuatanejo
Jan 21, 2014 Zacatecas
And many many more

U.S. Citizen Deaths Overseas


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## citlali

I know a dozen people who have been kidnapped, none of them came out alive, some never showed back up the others wer found dead.
Last week some extortion call started a panic as my husband who was in Jalisco could not reach me in Chiapas. Thank God I got back toh im before he deposited the money . At least i went for a mere 2000 pesos..I told the cab driver I thought it was really cheap,h e said do not laugh but it cost 500 pesos to get someone killed here.
So now I know the pricing in the neighborhood. 100 pesos for a blow job from the woman sitting on the sidewalk and 500 pesos to kill someone..Something wrong with values around here..


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## Hound Dog

_


citlali said:



I know a dozen people who have been kidnapped, none of them came out alive, some never showed back up the others wer found dead.
Last week some extortion call started a panic as my husband who was in Jalisco could not reach me in Chiapas. Thank God I got back toh im before he deposited the money . At least i went for a mere 2000 pesos..I told the cab driver I thought it was really cheap,h e said do not laugh but it cost 500 pesos to get someone killed here.
So now I know the pricing in the neighborhood. 100 pesos for a blow job from the woman sitting on the sidewalk and 500 pesos to kill someone..Something wrong with values around here..

Click to expand...

_
Darlin':

I want you to know that I´d have paid up to $5,000 Pesos to save your sorry ass but after that you would be on your own and even then, i´d have expected recompense from you for the inconvenience of my having had to have stood in a teller line at the bank.for more than 10 minutes.


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## Isla Verde

cscscs007 said:


> Here is a news article on a body count.
> 
> Mass kidnapping, beheadings disturb Mexico City - CBS News
> 
> Here's another one,
> 
> In a separate incident, authorities found seven bodies dumped in a car in a Mexico City suburb on Sunday morning, a local police official said.
> 
> Two of the men were found naked. Police have identified three of the men, who ranged in ages from 14 to 42, the official said.
> 
> It appeared all seven men, who were found in the suburb of Ecatepec, had been shot, the official said.
> 
> Last year, police discovered eight corpses dumped in the down-at-the-heels suburb of 2 million people.
> 
> Ecatepec lies in the State of Mexico, which borders the capital to the north and where more than half the population of greater Mexico City lives.
> 
> Until 2011, Enrique Pena Nieto, now the president of Mexico, was the governor of the State of Mexico.
> 
> He has vowed to take a different tack than his presidential predecessor, Felipe Calderon, who sent in the troops to tackle the warring drug cartels. Pena Nieto has focused instead on stopping kidnapping and extortion.
> Mexican journalists' sons killed; seven bodies found near Mexico City | Reuters
> 
> and another.
> 
> Bodies wrapped in plastic found in Mexico City suburbs as country's brutal drug war is laid bare in vivid reminder | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Even Americans need to be aware of their surroundings and what's going on in the news. To not do so is an invitation for being placed in unnecessary danger. IMHO one needs to be aware that cartel activity does exist throughout the majority of Mexico, and if the lives of elected officials and journalists are at risk, I don't think waving a US Passport in their face and saying I am an American will make them stop their intended action. Now I am not saying that Americans are picked out of the crowd, I am saying these people do not care who you are are where you are from or what you do, your life means little to them if you have something they want, including your silence.
> 
> More Americans Murdered In Mexico Than In Any Other Country In The World | Fox News Latino
> 
> The US Dept of State lists American deaths in Mexico.
> 
> Homicide
> 
> Jan 6, 2011 in Chapala
> July 17, 2012 in Chapala
> July 31, 2007 in Ciudad Netzahualcoyotl, Mexico City
> June 17, 2003 Distrito Federal
> Feb 2, 2011 Distrito Federal
> April 5, 2007 Guadalajara
> March 7, 2009 Guadalajara
> Feb 23, 2003 Guadalajara
> March 4, 2011 Guadalajara
> June 11, 2011 Guadalajara
> Aug 5, 2012 Guadalajara
> March 5, 2013 Guadalajara
> April 1, 2013 Guadalajara
> May 1, 2014 Guadalajara
> June 25, 2010 Guadalajara
> Sept 27, 2010 Guadalajara
> Feb 24, 2014 Iguala Guerrero
> Sept 6, 2006 Mexico City
> Feb 4, 2014 Distrito Federal
> April 16, 2012 Distrito Federal
> Feb 11, 2009 Puerto Vallarta
> Dec 30, 2012 Puerto Vallarta
> Sept 14, 2003 Puerto Vallarta
> April 21, 2014 Puerto Vallarta
> Jan 30, 2013 San Miguel de Allende
> Dec 13, 2013 San Miguel de Allende
> Jan 18, 2011 San Miguel de Allende
> Jan 21, 2011 San Migual de Allende
> Feb 12, 2014 Zihuatanejo
> Jan 21, 2014 Zacatecas
> And many many more
> 
> U.S. Citizen Deaths Overseas


You seem to be very concerned about the murders that have taken place in Mexico since 2003. Are you planning to leave the country any day soon? Just wondering . . .


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## cscscs007

Just telling the facts. That's all it is.


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## Isla Verde

cscscs007 said:


> Just telling the facts. That's all it is.


To what purpose? Do you think that most of us are not aware of the huge problems facing Mexico at this time?


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Honestly ... You're probably the first/only person I've known in the D.F. in the past 20 years who hasn't been victimized, at least once. Lucky you.


Nope, nothing. I haven't had my pockets picked or my house robbed, and no one has tried to kidnap me. Maybe it's because of the fairly low-key life I lead and the safe neighborhood I live in. Maybe being a gray-haired woman "of a certain age", who doesn't frequent bars or hang out in shady neighborhood helps too.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Nope, nothing. I haven't had my pockets picked or my house robbed, and no one has tried to kidnap me. Maybe it's because of the fairly low-key life I lead and the safe neighborhood I live in. Maybe being a gray-haired woman "of a certain age", who doesn't frequent bars or hang out in shady neighborhood helps too.


When we were in San Miguel there was an article in the local English paper about an American woman who was murdered in her home there. She had sold a property, was paid in cash, and had told a number of people she had the cash. Not surprising such a terrible thing ended up happening. 

When comparing Mexico with other expat destinations folks should remember that Mexico has by far the largest American expat population in the world. It's the murder rate one should be concerned about. That, and not putting one's self in dangerous situations if at all possible.


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## citlali

All houses sell for cash but the cash is deposited in banks. I doubt this lady had the cash in the house, if she did and talked about it she must have been out of her mind.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> All houses sell for cash but the cash is deposited in banks. I doubt this lady had the cash in the house, if she did and talked about it she must have been out of her mind.


Agreed!


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> All houses sell for cash but the cash is deposited in banks. I doubt this lady had the cash in the house, if she did and talked about it she must have been out of her mind.


Article said she had told some friends she had cash at home. She was murdered and cash was missing.


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## GARYJ65

Does that only happens in Mexico?


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## GARYJ65

cscscs007 said:


> And what parts of Mexico can an expat go so as to not be affected by violence from the cartels? Chapala was a dumping grounds for heads and bodies not too long ago. San Miguel was the scene of a cartel leader arrest. Acupulco has its problems. Mexico City has its body count issue also. Torreon, Mexicali, Nuevo Laredo, Tijuana, and many, many more have been dealing with this. Mexico may be bigger than Columbia, but the problem is still the same. Just because a person is an expat isn't a deterrent to a criminal. How many of us know of someone who has lost their life to this problem? History always has a way of repeating itself. Columbia is a great example of this.


You mean Colombia


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Does that only happens in Mexico?


This is a forum about Mexico, not about everywhere else in the world, so that's what we discuss here. And saying that bad things happen in other parts of the world does not really contribute to the subject of this thread, does it?


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## GARYJ65

Maybe you are right Isla, I just wanted to point out that it's not a "Mexican thing" to kill Americans
If one flash cash or jewelry in Mexico, or any part of the world, you will most probably get yourself in trouble, local or visitor


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Maybe you are right Isla, I just wanted to point out that it's not a "Mexican thing" to kill Americans
> If one flash cash or jewelry in Mexico, or any part of the world, you will most probably get yourself in trouble, local or visitor


I think that most of us here on the forum are more concerned about how the increase in violence in the country affects Mexico and Mexicans than about the effects it has on foreigners living here, at least that's how I feel about it.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I think that most of us here on the forum are more concerned about how the increase in violence in the country affects Mexico and Mexicans than about the effects it has on foreigners living here, at least that's how I feel about it.


I don't know about that, maybe you are concerned about Mexicans,
Most of the comments are about how the Mexican situation affect foreigners, and how many have suffered because of it
Also, about who's got the most accurate numbers


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't know about that, maybe you are concerned about Mexicans,
> Most of the comments are about how the Mexican situation affect foreigners, and how many have suffered because of it
> Also, about who's got the most accurate numbers


I mentioned the woman in San Miguel because she put herself in jeopardy. In other words don't do dumb things, don't get involved in the drug trade, and most likely one will be safe, no matter where you live. It is interesting though that the list of locations where Americans have been killed shows a concentration in three of the biggest expat centers. Might construe that some of the criminal element gravitate towards popular expat towns because senior Americans make relatively easy targets.


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## Hound Dog

_


vantexan said:



I mentioned the woman in San Miguel because she put herself in jeopardy. In other words don't do dumb things, don't get involved in the drug trade, and most likely one will be safe, no matter where you live. *It is interesting though that the list of locations where Americans have been killed shows a concentration in three of the biggest expat centers. *Might construe that some of the criminal element gravitate towards popular expat towns because senior Americans make relatively easy targets.
 
Click to expand...

_Now, Van, I have lived full time in Mexico for right at 14 years and live in a town on Lake Chapaa with a large population of foreigners resident there and in Chiapas where there are virtually no foreigners. I don´t follow your logic and request clarification. Tell me what three "biggest expat centers" have been places where most "Americans" have been killed. and. if so, what is your point? Of course, if there are more "Americans" in a place then they are more likely to have been crime victims than were they not there.


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## TundraGreen

vantexan said:


> I mentioned the woman in San Miguel because she put herself in jeopardy. In other words don't do dumb things, don't get involved in the drug trade, and most likely one will be safe, no matter where you live. It is interesting though that the list of locations where Americans have been killed shows a concentration in three of the biggest expat centers. Might construe that some of the criminal element gravitate towards popular expat towns because senior Americans make relatively easy targets.


Or you might conclude that it is because that is where there are expats. It is hard to have many expat victims in places where there are no expats. It tells you nothing about whether expats are targeted.


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## GARYJ65

TundraGreen said:


> Or you might conclude that it is because that is where there are expats. It is hard to have many expat victims in places where there are no expats. It tells you nothing about whether expats are targeted.


I concur!


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## vantexan

Hound Dog said:


> Now, Van, I have lived full time in Mexico for right at 14 years and live in a town on Lake Chapaa with a large population of foreigners resident there and in Chiapas where there are virtually no foreigners. I don´t follow your logic and request clarification. Tell me what three "biggest expat centers" have been places where most "Americans" have been killed. and. if so, what is your point? Of course, if there are more "Americans" in a place then they are more likely to have been crime victims than were they not there.


Take a look at the list of locations on page 2. Seems Americans are much more likely to get killed in areas where American expats congregate. If so why? Because criminals might perceive relatively wealthy senior Americans make easy targets? Who knows, but Guadalajara, San Miguel, and Puerto Vallarta really stand out.


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## ojosazules11

vantexan said:


> Take a look at the list of locations on page 2. Seems Americans are much more likely to get killed in areas where American expats congregate. If so why? Because criminals might perceive relatively wealthy senior Americans make easy targets? Who knows, but Guadalajara, San Miguel, and Puerto Vallarta really stand out.


Think of this in terms of percentages. (Just for illustration I'm making up these numbers)

In a place where 10% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 10% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 10 would be expats.

In a place where 5% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 5% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 5 would be expats.

In a place where 1% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 1% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 1 would be an expat.

It's not that criminals are targeting that area, just that where there are more expats, on a purely statistical basis there will be more expat victims. The criminals are equal opportunity thugs.


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## Hound Dog

The logic as to the relevance of the number of foreigners inhabiting a certain area and their susceptibility to criminal acts is well applied but there is also a logical reason this fact does not occur in real life. Despite the fact that foreign residents in a particular place in a developing country may be presumed to have more liquid resources than many supposedly less affluent locals, there is the aggravating language barrier that tends to irritate thieves who, because of this impediment, tend to want to extort locals with whom they can communicate more easily.

Just the other day, I received an extortion call randomly made to my home phone where the morons claimed to have kidnapped a member of my family and declared they would kill this person unless I deposited some money in their bank account at the nearest OXXO store. I pretended that I, as a foreigner, spoke zero Spanish and, after some time of my going "Perdon, no comprendo, repetir la pregunta por favor" the jerks finally gave up in frustration and hung up. I haven´t heard from them since.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Just the other day, I received an extortion call randomly made to my home phone where the morons claimed to have kidnapped a member of my family and declared they would kill this person unless I deposited some money in their bank account at the nearest OXXO store. I pretended that I, as a foreigner, spoke zero Spanish and, after some time of my going "Perdon, no comprendo, repetir la pregunta por favor" the jerks finally gave up in frustration and hung up. I haven´t heard from them since.


Most of my friends here call me on my cell phone, and 90% of the calls I get on my landline phone are wrong numbers. Often when my landline phone rings, I answer in English and then they quickly hang up. I wonder if any of these calls were like the extortion call that HD got the other day.


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## vantexan

ojosazules11 said:


> Think of this in terms of percentages. (Just for illustration I'm making up these numbers)
> 
> In a place where 10% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 10% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 10 would be expats.
> 
> In a place where 5% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 5% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 5 would be expats.
> 
> In a place where 1% of the population are expats, all else being equal one would expect about 1% of random crime victims to be expats. So if there are 100 random crime victims, about 1 would be an expat.
> 
> It's not that criminals are targeting that area, just that where there are more expats, on a purely statistical basis there will be more expat victims. The criminals are equal opportunity thugs.


You may be right, but if criminals gravitate to large expat areas in hopes of easy scores, then crimes involving expats aren't random but targeted. Of course we'd have to know the nature of the crimes themselves. Perhaps male expats who are murdered were involved in nefarious activities, drinking alone at bars late at night, chasing a local's spouse, who knows? I was just wondering out loud whether it's more likely for an American to be a victim of a crime in popular expat areas than if he lived quietly in a place few Americans frequent?


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## michmex

Isla Verde said:


> Most of my friends here call me on my cell phone, and 90% of the calls I get on my landline phone are wrong numbers. Often when my landline phone rings, I answer in English and then they quickly hang up. I wonder if any of these calls were like the extortion call that HD got the other day.


Same here on our landline. 90%+ are marketing calls from banks where we have accounts. The rest are wrong numbers or one in a while from Telmex. I usually first answer in Spanish and the spiel begins. After I recognize the number and/or time of day I will answer in English and then the hangup. Other times I will just let it go to the answering machine.

We never receive marketing calls on our cell phones. Once in a while a wrong number. Movistar does, however, like to blast 2-3 marketing SMS's each and every day.

We have never had any kind of extortion type of call.


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## Isla Verde

michmex said:


> Same here on our landline. 90%+ are marketing calls from banks where we have accounts. The rest are wrong numbers or one in a while from Telmex. I usually first answer in Spanish and the spiel begins. After I recognize the number and/or time of day I will answer in English and then the hangup. Other times I will just let it go to the answering machine.
> 
> We never receive marketing calls on our cell phones. Once in a while a wrong number. Movistar does, however, like to blast 2-3 marketing SMS's each and every day.
> 
> We have never had any kind of extortion type of call.


It sounds like you and I have had the same experiences with our phones, both landline and cell. Depending on my mood, I will answer with "Hello" or "Bueno". I figure that if it's a wrong number or marketing calls from my bank or Telmex, they will just give up and hang up if I answer in English, and that's generally what happens. I have no qualms about quietly hanging up once a spiel begins  .

After over 7 years of living in Mexico (wow, hard to believe it's been that long), I have received maybe two wrong numbers on my cell phone and no marketing calls. I use Telcel and the only text messages I get from them are twice-daily news headlines (which I've requested) and an occasional offer to double the value of my online purchase of "tiempo aire".


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## coondawg

May 1st marks 16 years for me, I.V., since I started coming at least 6 months every year to Mexico. Lots has changed. My retirement doesn't go near as far now, just a little better overall than NOB, especially since our move to Leon. Need to find another nice pueblo like Chapala was at one time.


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> You may be right, but if criminals gravitate to large expat areas in hopes of easy scores, then crimes involving expats aren't random but targeted. Of course we'd have to know the nature of the crimes themselves. Perhaps male expats who are murdered were involved in nefarious activities, drinking alone at bars late at night, chasing a local's spouse, who knows? I was just wondering out loud whether it's more likely for an American to be a victim of a crime in popular expat areas than if he lived quietly in a place few Americans frequent?


Crimes of opportunity, for the most part. That's what I think happens when an expat is victimized. 

An expat might be robbed or killed as the result of a dispute with a contractor's employee or vendor, or it might have been someone who had an inside look at an expat's home with lots of material possessions or mention of cash on-site, there have been women raped and also several or more gay men in recent years who were killed by Mexican men for one reason or another. 

My observation and experieince in Mexico has been that expats need to choose their words wisely when upset with neighbors or contractors/service providers, and those with big mouths need to keep them shut so as not to brag about material possessions and money. _Loose lips shink ships._ Choose wisely who we allow into our homes and share the intimate details of our life with. Attracting attention, and standing-out too much just draws interest from some people who we'd rather not know.

I think it's the rare expat for whom it's wise to live too far off the _beaten path_ in Mexico, particularly if the expat is not married/partnered with a Mexican who hails from that more remote location. Few of us have the same personality and lifestyles, but for many expats it makes sense to live in close proximity to one another (i.e., not "next door" but in the same general vicinity). Before wandering _off the reservation_, it takes some time to acclimate and learn the ways of Mexico ... best you/we can.


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## Hound Dog

> My observation and experieince in Mexico has been that expats need to choose their words wisely when upset with neighbors or contractors/service providers, and those with big mouths need to keep them shut so as not to brag about material possessions and money. _Loose lips shink ships._ Choose wisely who we allow into our homes and share the intimate details of our life with. Attracting attention, and standing-out too much just draws interest from some people who we'd rather not know.
> 
> I think it's the rare expat for whom it's wise to live too far off the _beaten path_ in Mexico, particularly if the expat is not married/partnered with a Mexican who hails from that more remote location. Few of us have the same personality and lifestyles, but for many expats it makes sense to live in close proximity to one another (i.e., not "next door" but in the same general vicinity). Before wandering _off the reservation_, it takes some time to acclimate and learn the ways of Mexico ... best you/we can.


Agreed 100% Longford. After 14 years living here in Mexico, from the shores of Lake Chapala to the Chiapas outback, I assure you the last thing I would do is move to the woods and isolate myself here. Of course, when we lived in the outback in Northern California and South Alabama, we were armed to the teeth. Loaded 12 gauge shotgun and .38 pólice revolver with six bullets in the chamber. Four huge mastinos and lots of unpleasant rattlesnakes hanging around. We´d have had a ready-to-fire flame thrower on hand had we been able to acquire one. If one had a death wish, I should, in those days (the 1980s) have suggessted a stroll thorgh the woods in Mendocino County loaded with bears, unseen toxic creatures and mean and ugly humans growing weed. Even sheriff´s deputies woud only venture there in platoon formations. 

South Alabama and Northern California were both filled with the human dregs of the earth in those days. I pulled out that shotgun on countless occasions in those days.


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## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> …and .38 pólice revolver with six bullets in the chamber.…


That must have been some revolver if you could get six bullets in one chamber.  

Six bullets in the cylinder maybe?


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## ojosazules11

Just last week our house was broken into -- in "Toronto the Good". A basement window wasn't securely latched and the thief came in while we were in the house sleeping. Our 6 lb Mexican "mini-mutt" raised the alarm and chased the thief out of the house. We've also had our cars broken into a few times over the years. And we live in a nice neighbourhood where I feel perfectly safe walking alone at 2 a.m. Crimes of opportunity can happen anywhere.


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> Might construe that some of the criminal element gravitate towards popular expat towns because senior Americans make relatively easy targets.


Read this: MGR - the Mexico Gulf Reporter: Chapala records 4th murder of foreign resident in 2014


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Read this: MGR - the Mexico Gulf Reporter: Chapala records 4th murder of foreign resident in 2014


Frightening goings-on. I wonder how many expats living in Mexico City have been murdered this year.


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## citlali

Vantexan the criminals do not graviate towards Chapala they live there and some of these guys are high on drug , need money and murder whom ever is easy to get to. Same as anywhere else the old people are more vunerable but we cannot blame the crimes on people coming to Chapala, they are already here.


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## vantexan

citlali said:


> Vantexan the criminals do not graviate towards Chapala they live there and some of these guys are high on drug , need money and murder whom ever is easy to get to. Same as anywhere else the old people are more vunerable but we cannot blame the crimes on people coming to Chapala, they are already here.


It's a known fact in Antigua, Guatemala that criminals from Guatemala City go there because of all the expats as well as wealthy Guatemalans who live there. I don't think it's a stretch to think some of the criminal element in Mexico see cities with a large expat population as a smorgasbord. Quite a few of them come up to the States too.


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## coondawg

There are robberies, break ins, extortion, lots of "extranjero pricing", and murders at Lakeside of expats, but nothing of any magnitude like in the Mexican community. One might expect lots more, in a country as lawless as Mexico, but, so far, things are relatively calm. It's almost like there is an unwritten rule to not fool with extranjeros at Lakeside, except to overprice and take mordidas. That area has depended on and welcomed the extranjero dollar for some time. Now, new money comes from wealthy people from Guadalajara, as the expat population has started to decline.


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## TundraGreen

vantexan said:


> It's a known fact in Antigua, Guatemala that criminals from Guatemala City go there because of all the expats as well as wealthy Guatemalans who live there. I don't think it's a stretch to think some of the criminal element in Mexico see cities with a large expat population as a smorgasbord. Quite a few of them come up to the States too.


I must be missing something. What is it about an expat community that would appeal to the cartels: Robbery? That seems like chicken feed compared to the money in selling drugs to the US drug market. Kidnapping and ransom? Half of the people in expat communities are there because they can't afford to live north of the border on their social security checks. Extortion and protection money? That works with businesses with a source of income, not individuals.

It seems to me that when foreigners have gotten in trouble with the cartels in Mexico, it is because they had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because they were specifically targeted.

If by "criminal element", you are referring to the more run of the mill breaking and entering or purse snatchings etc, I still don't see foreigners presenting a very fertile target. There are lots more Mexicans with expensive possessions than there are foreigners.


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## vantexan

TundraGreen said:


> I must be missing something. What is it about an expat community that would appeal to the cartels: Robbery? That seems like chicken feed compared to the money in selling drugs to the US drug market. Kidnapping and ransom? Half of the people in expat communities are there because they can't afford to live north of the border on their social security checks. Extortion and protection money? That works with businesses with a source of income, not individuals.
> 
> It seems to me that when foreigners have gotten in trouble with the cartels in Mexico, it is because they had the misfortune to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because they were specifically targeted.
> 
> If by "criminal element", you are referring to the more run of the mill breaking and entering or purse snatchings etc, I still don't see foreigners presenting a very fertile target. There are lots more Mexicans with expensive possessions than there are foreigners.


I'm really not arguing the point, just wondering out loud after seeing that list. I was just speaking of run of the mill criminals, not cartels. Obviously cartels are in a whole other league. There's a thread on a Facebook group where members are naming various towns they live in around Mexico with few or no other gringos and they all seem to be very happy with their choice. Contradicts the opinion that there's safety in numbers. My reasoning on expats is by Mexican standards they are relatively well off, don't have guns, and probably not the security teams that protect Mexico's wealthy. A night watchman or gate guard isn't the same as armed to the teeth trained personnel who protect the very rich. But it's just wondering. The very popular for expat cities are mostly out of my price range, but that Facebook group reports prices are much, much lower in the towns they inhabit.


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> There's a thread on a Facebook group where members are naming various towns they live in around Mexico with few or no other gringos and they all seem to be very happy with their choice.


Can you, without linking that Facebook page, give us an idea, some names, of the cities/towns in which some of those expats are living? Thanks. 



vantexan said:


> My reasoning on expats is by Mexican standards they are relatively well off, don't have guns, and probably not the security teams that protect Mexico's wealthy.


A valid observation, IMO.



vantexan said:


> The very popular for expat cities are mostly out of my price range, but that Facebook group reports prices are much, much lower in the towns they inhabit.


I think that if you get to know a city/town in Mexico and wander about ... you/we can find places to live within our budget, whatever the budget, just about anyplace in Mexico. That's what I've observed. The key factor is what lifestyle do we want to live, or how materialistic do we want to be and also what our abilities are to live in Mexico within the level of monetary resources we have.

There are many relatively reasonable apartment rentals in good communities/colonias in Mexico (as compared to the cost of similar housing in the USA, as one example.). However, when it comes to buying an apartment or house ... I continue to believe I can do better in the USA than in Mexico now. But there comes a point when we reach a certain age that purchasing property may not be the smartest choice.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> … However, when it comes to buying an apartment or house ... I continue to believe I can do better in the USA than in Mexico now. …


I don't think I understand that statement. Are you saying house prices are lower in the US? I don't know anything about prices in resorts or gated communities, but there is a vast difference between house prices in Mexican cities versus comparable space in comparable US cities, say comparing Mexico City to New York or Guadalajara to Denver. Probably houses in Nome, Alaska are cheaper than in Cancun.


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> I don't think I understand that statement. Are you saying house prices are lower in the US? I don't know anything about prices in resorts or gated communities, but there is a vast difference between house prices in Mexican cities versus comparable space in comparable US cities, say comparing Mexico City to New York or Guadalajara to Denver. Probably houses in Nome, Alaska are cheaper than in Cancun.


For the past several years I've been more intensely planning for retirement, which I expect to be in maybe a year, and whether or not I'll retaijn my home base in Chicago but travel seasonaly or for maybe half the year (to a warmer climate), 2) purchase a second, "Winter" home, or 3) move from Chicago to someplace else (Mexico, Ireland or to the states of Florida or Arizona). So, as part of this process I've looked at housing prices in these possible locations (apartment and home purchases).

What I've learned is that I can purchase a townhome, apartment or even a single family home in what I think are, for me, livable communities in Arizona or Florida for US$50,000 or less. I could purchase a somewhat comparable (to FL or AZ) apartment in some areas I'm interested in Mexico for US$50,000 and up but the options/quality/locations are often less from what I've seen. 

In Mexico City it will probably cost me at least 50% more for a somewhat similar purchase I can make in Chicago. Of course, the timing of a purchase is crucial when talking price. There are areas in the USA where the housing market is still depressed and one can find values galore (with "values" being something in the eye of the "beholder"). 

Two major differences between property purchases in the USA and Mexico are common area maintenance fees (when the housing is a condominium or townhome that is part of a homeowner's association) and property taxes. And, yes, it's important to consider not just the initial purchase price but the ongoing, perpetual maintenance and tax expenses. 

Ireland is another story. Housing tends to be expensive, even in remote, country locations. But I could buy an apartment in areas I would find acceptable to live for US$50,000 or less.

Another consideration/factor when buying is who you buy for. I'm buying for me alone, not for a spouse also and not for a family. I'm in the category many single retired persons and empty-nest couples are - our space needs tend to be less than younger persons/couples/families.

But, yes, I do think that housing prices in Mexico are, or are in many aspects, higher than what I would pay for comparable housing/location/amenities in some parts of the USA right now.


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## G.A.S.

*G.a.s.*

I agree with you,, I've looked at house prices in and around my area here in Xalapa and they are higher here for the same type of house that I'm going to buy next year in El Paso Tx.


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## citlali

Vantexan, I would say that at Lakeside the rich peope with large properties in the hilsl and on the lake are Mexican not expats.The expats have nice houses as a rule but the estates and hue properties are owned by the Tapatios for the most part.
I know for a fact that some thieves commute to Lakeside but they target nice houses I do not think they taret expat per say.


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## joaquinx

G.A.S. said:


> I agree with you,, I've looked at house prices in and around my area here in Xalapa and they are higher here for the same type of house that I'm going to buy next year in El Paso Tx.


You've piqued my curiosity. Where in Xalapa did you look for a house?


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> For the past several years I've been more intensely planning for retirement, which I expect to be in maybe a year, and whether or not I'll retaijn my home base in Chicago but travel seasonaly or for maybe half the year (to a warmer climate), 2) purchase a second, "Winter" home, or 3) move from Chicago to someplace else (Mexico, Ireland or to the states of Florida or Arizona). So, as part of this process I've looked at housing prices in these possible locations (apartment and home purchases).
> 
> What I've learned is that I can purchase a townhome, apartment or even a single family home in what I think are, for me, livable communities in Arizona or Florida for US$50,000 or less. I could purchase a somewhat comparable (to FL or AZ) apartment in some areas I'm interested in Mexico for US$50,000 and up but the options/quality/locations are often less from what I've seen.
> 
> In Mexico City it will probably cost me at least 50% more for a somewhat similar purchase I can make in Chicago. Of course, the timing of a purchase is crucial when talking price. There are areas in the USA where the housing market is still depressed and one can find values galore (with "values" being something in the eye of the "beholder").
> 
> Two major differences between property purchases in the USA and Mexico are common area maintenance fees (when the housing is a condominium or townhome that is part of a homeowner's association) and property taxes. And, yes, it's important to consider not just the initial purchase price but the ongoing, perpetual maintenance and tax expenses.
> 
> Ireland is another story. Housing tends to be expensive, even in remote, country locations. But I could buy an apartment in areas I would find acceptable to live for US$50,000 or less.
> 
> Another consideration/factor when buying is who you buy for. I'm buying for me alone, not for a spouse also and not for a family. I'm in the category many single retired persons and empty-nest couples are - our space needs tend to be less than younger persons/couples/families.
> 
> But, yes, I do think that housing prices in Mexico are, or are in many aspects, higher than what I would pay for comparable housing/location/amenities in some parts of the USA right now.


I am sure you are correct for some localities. However, my house in Guadalajara cost cost half what the house I had in Boulder, Colorado cost. And it is 50% larger. And the house in Colorado is double the size of the house I lived in in the San Francisco Bay Area but cost half as much as that house in Menlo Park, California. In real estate, location is everything and the cost is very much a local phenomenon. 

Comparing Gdl to SF Bay area the comparison is 3 times as much space for 1/4 of the cost. However, if I lived in the Bugambilias barrio of Guadalajara/Zapopan the economics might be different.


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## coondawg

One man's trash is another man's treasure. 

I also find the purchase of a home to be cheaper in the USA than in Mexico, and much easier to pay monthly payments at very low interest rates and no down payment (cheaper than renting). Lots to consider and everyone is different.

The best one can say is " I Can... , but you may or may not be able to".


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## vantexan

Longford said:


> Can you, without linking that Facebook page, give us an idea, some names, of the cities/towns in which some of those expats are...


This was quite a chore. Only included the ones that also mentioned the state, which was most of them:

Tepatitlan de Morelos, Jalisco
Arandas, Jalisco
Yuriria, Guanajuato 
El Roble Mazatlan, Sinaloa
Nazareno, Oaxaca
Orizaba, Veracruz
Tlalpan, DF
Sisal, Yucatan
Tepoztlan, Morelos
San Andres Cholula, Puebla
San Vincente, Nayarit
Salamanca, Guanajuato
Mazamitla, Jalisco


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## Longford

vantexan said:


> This was quite a chore. Only included the ones that also mentioned the state, which was most of them:


Thank you for providing the names. Let me think about these for a bit.


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## regwill

TundraGreen , I lived in Denver from 2003-2013 and I have to say that $50,000 dollars will not let you buy a condo anywhere in Denver that you would want to live , much less get you with in 15 miles of Boulder , Colorado . For a lot of properties in Boulder , $50,000 would not cover your 20% down payment , just saying .


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## michmex

Longford said:


> For the past several years I've been more intensely planning for retirement, which I expect to be in maybe a year, and whether or not I'll retaijn my home base in Chicago but travel seasonaly or for maybe half the year (to a warmer climate), 2) purchase a second, "Winter" home, or 3) move from Chicago to someplace else (Mexico, Ireland or to the states of Florida or Arizona). So, as part of this process I've looked at housing prices in these possible locations (apartment and home purchases).
> 
> What I've learned is that I can purchase a townhome, apartment or even a single family home in what I think are, for me, livable communities in Arizona or Florida for US$50,000 or less. I could purchase a somewhat comparable (to FL or AZ) apartment in some areas I'm interested in Mexico for US$50,000 and up but the options/quality/locations are often less from what I've seen.
> 
> In Mexico City it will probably cost me at least 50% more for a somewhat similar purchase I can make in Chicago. Of course, the timing of a purchase is crucial when talking price. There are areas in the USA where the housing market is still depressed and one can find values galore (with "values" being something in the eye of the "beholder").
> 
> Two major differences between property purchases in the USA and Mexico are common area maintenance fees (when the housing is a condominium or townhome that is part of a homeowner's association) and property taxes. And, yes, it's important to consider not just the initial purchase price but the ongoing, perpetual maintenance and tax expenses.
> 
> Ireland is another story. Housing tends to be expensive, even in remote, country locations. But I could buy an apartment in areas I would find acceptable to live for US$50,000 or less.
> 
> Another consideration/factor when buying is who you buy for. I'm buying for me alone, not for a spouse also and not for a family. I'm in the category many single retired persons and empty-nest couples are - our space needs tend to be less than younger persons/couples/families.
> 
> But, yes, I do think that housing prices in Mexico are, or are in many aspects, higher than what I would pay for comparable housing/location/amenities in some parts of the USA right now.


Our subdivision in Farmington Hills, MI was quite comparable to the gated community we live in the DF metro area. Our cost was over 25% lower (new home vs. 15 year old home) and our home is about 20% larger here. Where we had a 1/2 acre in MI compared to a 600 square meters jardin here. Verdict - More home Less cost in Mexico at almost all price and size levels.

Our property taxes (predial) in Mexico are 90% less than in MI. Even when we include private school tuition/fees for our 10 year old we pay 50% less here. We have negligible expense for heating and cooling here compared to $3-4,000 in MI. Other monthly expenses are comparable. Verdict - Living expenses are much Lower in Mexico especially for a single person or couple without children.

My first relocation to Mexico was with a major multinational and included subsidized living expenses. I had a 3,000+ sq. ft. apartment with room service, valet parking, olympic size indoor pool - the works in Lomas de Chapultepec which cost my company (and me) and mere fraction of a similar apartment in Chicago or NYC. 

BTW, I spent 3 years in Westmont in the mid 1980's and still remain familiar with Chicago which I consider to be one the most livable large cities in the USA. Verdict for an luxury apartment in an upscale area of a major city - Mexico!

I have also lived in NE NJ, Coral Gables, FL, Baton Rouge, LA (Geaux Tigers) Dallas, TX, Omaha, NE and Denver, CO. Although, I am sure I could find bargains in almost any area of the USA, I am not sure I could find any that could favorably compare overall to a similar area or home in Mexico.


Distressed home sales and repossessions are not always the "gems" that one thinks they may be. Vacant homes and postponed maintenance often result in hidden costs that are not discovered until after the purchase. Most of the most desirable real estate from the 2007-2011 repo glut has already cleared the market making it more difficult to find those "true gems".


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## TundraGreen

regwill said:


> TundraGreen , I lived in Denver from 2003-2013 and I have to say that $50,000 dollars will not let you buy a condo anywhere in Denver that you would want to live , much less get you with in 15 miles of Boulder , Colorado . For a lot of properties in Boulder , $50,000 would not cover your 20% down payment , just saying .


I must have missed something. I agree, $50K usd will not buy anything in Boulder or even in Denver. Did somebody claim it would?


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## Longford

michmex said:


> My first relocation to Mexico was with a major multinational and included subsidized living expenses. I had a 3,000+ sq. ft. apartment with room service, valet parking, olympic size indoor pool - the works in Lomas de Chapultepec which cost my company (and me) and mere fraction of a similar apartment in Chicago or NYC.


Chicago and New York City (i.e., Manhattan) are worlds-apart, when we speak of real estate prices, including apartment rentals. Apples to oranges comparisons. As for such an apartment as you describe in Lomas, were it in Chicago ... the monthly rental today would probably be in the peso-equivalent range of MX$67,000 monthly (if there were such a building, which I don't think there is). An equivalent/similar apartment in what will probably be an older building in Lomas would probably rent today for about MX$40,000-45,000 monthly (if you could find one). I suspect the newer condo buildings attracting high-end earners and corporate executives, in the new Santa Fe or Colonia Granda developments will rent for prices simiar to what people pay for those sorts of luxuries/amenities in Chicago (and such buildings wll be the rare find in Chicago, IMO).


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## regwill

TundraGreen said:


> I must have missed something. I agree, $50K usd will not buy anything in Boulder or even in Denver. Did somebody claim it would?


TundraGreen , in your response to Longford , you talked about the cost of housing in Cali and Boulder vs your house in Mexico . I was just using the dollar amount that Longford was using , that is all .


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## G.A.S.

*G.a.s.*



joaquinx said:


> You've piqued my curiosity. Where in Xalapa did you look for a house?


 I live in the fesapauv crystal colinia,,,there are three houses within three blocks of my house for sale and one new house that's very small but they want more than I think anyone would pay for a house the size in an area that I would live in in the states,,, by the way John you know exactly where my house is,,,,


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