# Getting a bit frustrated with others!!!



## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

Hi All

So we're a week away from my Dad seeing some properties in Murcia and he is still very keen about the whole lifestyle, change of scene, weather, food, gold, etc etc

However, some of my family seem to be very negative about it and as much as he is keeping an open mind its putting doubt in his head.

They seem to think that he would be better off using that same money to buy some kind of studio flat in Leeds rather than a two bedroom apartment on a golf course, by the sea, in the sun.......

All they keep saying is "what if he gets ill?" which I think just comes from having no clue at all about how things work - where as I have done my homework and it seems all ok to me and my Dad too. However, one thing that has reared its head again is the communication issue.

Now as before, my Dad is not an ill person - he had a pacemaker put in 6 months ago, has been Type 2 diebetic for 25 years with no issue (just diet control) and has to see the eye doctor every 6 months for a check up - that's it - but he does have to see a GP regularly to get repeat prescriptions and blood tests and he is really worried about not being able to communicate with them.

IYO - what is the situation with no speaking Spanish with doctors and GPs, etc.

I mean my wife is a nurse and she has 10 patients on her ward right now who don't speak a word of English and they getting treated ok.....

Is he worrying about nothing - and if you can help I just want to provide him some reassurance....

I dont want him to pass up an opportunity because some "jealous" people have put negative thoughts in his head

Thanks guys!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

hopalong35 said:


> Hi All
> 
> So we're a week away from my Dad seeing some properties in Murcia and he is still very keen about the whole lifestyle, change of scene, weather, food, gold, etc etc
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say that your relatives´ concerns are totally unfounded, tbh. It can be a real problem if elderly people become seriously ill whilst living in Spain, especially if they are living alone. You could read this recent thread on the whole subject of English speaking doctors, for a start:-

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ng-spain/711746-english-speaking-doctors.html

If your father were to need inpatient treatment in hospital, it is the norm in Spain for a member of the family to stay with the patient all the time (sometimes families pay for someone to do this instead) as they are the ones expected to provide the patient with any help they need with feeding, washing, toileting etc. I believe some hospitals will do this for patients who don't have family to help, but the situation may not be like that everywhere. Then there is the question of what help the patient may need once discharged from hospital. There is no such thing as "bed-blocking" here because care is not in place at home - once the doctors decide no further treatment is necessary then the patient is discharged whether there is anyone at home to look after them or not. There is legislation in place called the Ley de Dependencia which provides for home care services for elderly and disabled people, but the whole process of obtaining an assessment of needs, filling in the necessary application documents, reading what criteria have to be fulfilled to qualify, communicating with the staff who process the applications and carry out the assessments, and the carers themselves, would almost certainly have to be carried out entirely in Spanish. Waiting lists for these services are long.

It is good that your father is in relatively good health now, but he and the family do have to realise that that may not always be the case and be realistic about how they would or could handle things if his health deteriorates in the future.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

The only time I have needed to go to the health centre where I am neither the receptionist or the nurse spoke much English. That said, there were English people there who couldn't communicate in Spanish and they were regulars who obviously get treated one way or another.

Worst case, he pays for translation help the first couple of times, but after that they're going to know why he's there and he won't need to say much.

I think he'll be fine.

A lot better than staring out at the grey sky in Leeds from his flat.

Do the jealous one never go abroad to non-English speaking countries through fear they might not get treated if they had an accident?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

A little more....

The last time I was in the health centre I met an 83 year old lady. I helped her a little with filling a form out. Whilst doing so, she told me she had lived in Spain for 16 years when her husband died. She sold up and returned to the UK but lasted only 6 months there before deciding to come back to Spain. She intends to be here the rest of her days and obviously has no concerns for the future. If your Dad is in a place where support networks exist he'll be OK.


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

And all of your points are absolutely valid and I agree that it could happen (thanks for the info on family members too) - however there are two points that I feel about this:

1. Right now regardless of where he lives if anything ever does need doing it comes down to me to do it - none of these other family members lift a bloody finger. I'm alright with getting to Spain if needed and so is my wife too.

2. I feel that while things can go bad - why should your life be put on hold just in case anything happens. He's only 68 which isn't old - is he supposed to spend the rest of his days shacked up in a dump just "in case" he gets ill because UK hospitals are supposedly the best in the world (sarcastic)

I might have a fatal accident on the way home from work today......should I never drive again?

Am I being overly optimistic - whats people experiences of doctors/hospitals in Murcia & San Javier?


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

Just seen a Medicallink Translation Service in Murcia that looks fantastic - anyone got a clue what that costs?

Medical Link Healthcar Interpreters


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

If it were my Father I would advise him to buy a place in Leeds (why does it have to be Leeds?) rent it out and rent a nice apartment in Spain with the proceeds. As a Spanish property owner I am not jealous nor concerned about his health issues, not nice being ill in any country. I think he should be left to decide for himself.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I would advise my 68 year old father to buy the place he wants to live in. Buying in Leeds would means he becomes a landlord, he probably didn't have that in his career plan at this time. Renting in Spain would mean a landlord could move him on at some point. At his age he might want to feel settled and make his home *his* home.

The reason for buying in the UK while living in Spain would be capital appreciation/protection. He should only concern himself with that if he wants to leave the kids that wouldn't lift a finger and bit more to feast on when he's not here.

I'd tell him not to be concerned about that.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

hopalong35 said:


> Am I being overly optimistic - whats people experiences of doctors/hospitals in Murcia & San Javier?


I can't comment on those areas but I have used A&E equivalent here. On the day I needed it, I was seen by a receptionist as soon as I walked through the door. I was in the treatment room 10 minutes later. At 3 follow-up appointments at out-patients' clinic over the next couple of weeks I didn't wait more than 15 minutes on any occasion.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> I would advise my 68 year old father to buy the place he wants to live in. Buying in Leeds would means he becomes a landlord, he probably didn't have that in his career plan at this time. Renting in Spain would mean a landlord could move him on at some point. At his age he might want to feel settled and make his home *his* home.
> 
> The reason for buying in the UK while living in Spain would be capital appreciation/protection. He should only concern himself with that if he wants to leave the kids that wouldn't lift a finger and bit more to feast on when he's not here.
> 
> I'd tell him not to be concerned about that.


You also need to take into account purchase costs, potential inheritance tax, how easy it is to sell if he decides to live somewhere else, etc. In Spain renters are more protected by law - contracts are for a minimum of 3 years and the landlord cannot raise the rent above the rate of inflation during that period. Also a lot of property owners in Spain are desperate to rent out property, so there should be good deals around and landlords should treat decent tenants well. Personally if I were a UK resident I wouldn't buy property anywhere if I were over 60. The new UK pension rules make investing in funds far more attractive.


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

All good points thanks so much


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

My parents moved here over three years ago. They have several health conditions especially my step father. The healthcare they have received here has been excellent. They receive 6 months of prescriptions on their health cards and although it can and does go wrong at times the system seems to cope very well. The are trying to learn Spanish but their pronunciation leaves a lot to be desired. The doctor who is registered with them speaks English but refuses to do so. He also refuses to speak Spanish to his Spanish patients. Such is life. The second doctor they see when he is on holiday (about 6 months of the year) speaks perfect English. Either way they have few problems and are delighted with the care they receive. They have an incredible social life and never seem to be at home. Last point: my Mother is 81 and he is 85...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

hopalong35 said:


> And all of your points are absolutely valid and I agree that it could happen (thanks for the info on family members too) - however there are two points that I feel about this:
> 
> 1. Right now regardless of where he lives if anything ever does need doing it comes down to me to do it - none of these other family members lift a bloody finger. I'm alright with getting to Spain if needed and so is my wife too.
> 
> ...


No, he doesn't need to put his life on hold "just in case". He just needs to appreciate that medical staff aren't going to be able to communicate with him in English wherever he goes, so he either needs to learn some Spanish or make sure his funds are sufficient to be able to pay for interpreters when he needs them (and I'm sure it would be best to have one for anything other than routine tests or check-ups, anyway).

If you and your wife are in a position to be able to come out to Spain and help him if the need arises, that's great. I really like your concern for your Dad and your wish for him to get the most out of life, btw.

I suppose my caution arises from experience, albeit the other way around. When I left England, my own Dad had diabetes and a few other conditions but was living alone and coping really well. Exactly one month later I got a phone call from my brother to tell me Dad had had a stroke and was in hospital, and I was on a plane back the next day. It was a terrible shock and I thought "oh, what have I done?". He stayed in hospital for the next six months until he died. Yes, I was able to fly back and spend weeks at a time with him, but it was a terribly difficult time. 

It is just that contingency plans do have to be in place, in case the worst does happen, which hopefully it won't or at least not for many more years.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

In Murcia there is a new hospital called Sta Lucia, which has taken over from the old Rossell.
It has very good facilities.
We have always had efficient treatment.
Although my Spanish is reasonable, I did take an interpreter last time as I knew this particular consultant spoke very fast and didnt make allowances for someone like myself.
The cost was 20 euros for a consultation lasting up to an hour.
I do understand your relatives concern, though.
It is extremely draining, emotionally and physically to be the sole carer if a relative is in hospital for a long time, particularly if the hospital isnt near where you live.
Then there is the worry of looking after someone in the home who is very frail, has dementia etc
Yes you can pay for care, and ask charities for assistance, but i can see why some would want to move back to the UK
I think some do put their heads in the sand and then cant cope when it happens.
I' m not saying your father shouldnt come, just that he is prepared that he might have to pay for things that he wouldnt in the UK, and that things are done differently.
Its good that youre prepared to drop everything and rush to his assistance, and stay with him until he's well, but many here dont have that reassurance.
Just to add that, at our health centre, you can pay about 45 euros per year and that will ensure an interpreter accompanies you to the GP, and sorts out appointments and queries about prescriptions.
Visits to the consultant cost more, and will be per visit.
Im sure your Dad can find a nice flat or 1 bed villa on an urbanisation in Murcia,where there are lots of social activities and all the amenities he needs


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I was the same age as your Dad when I moved here - it was the best thing ever.

OK, I have the advantage that I know some Spanish and SWMBO is fluent and ends up helping others. Three years ago I had a mild heart attack in the middle of the night. Because getting an ambulance to our house is difficult, she drove me to the nearby town which has a hospital where I was seen, stabilised then sent by a fully equipped ambulance to the Provincial hospital. That was Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. They installed two stents and I was discharged on the Friday afternoon. With my limited Spanish and some of the staff's limited English, we got by and had no problems in that respect. When I was in a 3-bed ward, the relatives of other patients, kept an eye on me.

You have been made aware of some of the difficulties (none of the insurmountable) he might encounter, sit down and talk to him, explain what you have found out, let him think about what he wants without being browbeaten by those who would look at the worst rather than what he would like.

We now have a Dr, Nurse, and driver with an ambulance on call in our village to cover the out-of-hours periods (nights and weekends) and together with the medical cards (these give access to our medical records anywhere in Spain) we have far better healthcare service than we got in UK.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero;6856962
Just to add that said:


> That sounds like an excellent service and would be a huge help to anyone thinking of moving in their later years.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hopalong, we don't know your father, so it's hard of course to give advice as to how he'll cope. Perhaps if everyone who knows him thinks it will be difficult for him, they may be right, or you can use their reasoning for pause for thought? It may not be out of jealousy that they are adverse to him moving. 

I read your other thread about the other potential problems you consider in him moving here, and it really had me thinking already then about who he is as a person, as to whether or not he'll be able to get by. The language barrier that you brought up is just one thing that comes to my mind. I'm wondering about other aspects of your father. Here are some questions that you might want to consider in considering how well he can immigrate. I've come up with these questions based on having met a whole lot of immigrants in Canada and seeing who fared well, and given my own experiences as an immigrant to Canada and Spain. These are general questions, and many apply to his healthcare situation.

Is your father resourceful in finding answers to problems, or does he expect everything to be laid out in front of him? 

Can he use the internet to stay in touch with friends and family, and to research aspects of living in Spain, such as the transit system, the location of things in his neighbourhood through Google maps, banking, bills, tourist sites, etc?

Are your father, friends and family willing and able to stay in touch when he's here in Spain, to discuss and share the good, the bad and the ugly about living in Spain?

Is he experienced in moving to new neighbourhoods? 

Is he an independent person, or does he typically depend on others to fix his problems? 

Is your father a problem solver, or someone who avoids solving problems?

Inasmuch as your father doesn't know Spanish now, is he willing and able to learn as much Spanish as he can?

Is your father adventurous, or someone who wants everything the same all the time?

Is there enough that your father likes about Spain that makes it worth the work that he will have to put in to live in Spain?

I hope that helps in some way.


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## PS51 (Sep 7, 2014)

I cant comment yet about needing to go to a Spanish hospital without language skills. I do have a place in Turkey on a Complex. If someone needed to go to hospital who couldnt speak Turkish, one of the Expat neighbours or Turkish Neighbours who speak both Languages would take that person. It has happened twice in the last year. One was a Scorpion bite. Not much fun there !!
I imagine that in Spain , as long as he was on a decent sized complex with both nationalities, he would get help.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I still don't agree Chopera and here's why:

Purchase costs have to be paid in Spain but dad will spend half in Spain what he would in the UK for an apartment that will probably be bigger and nicer, even after purchase costs.

Protection is 3 years but dad is thinking of spending the rest of his life in Spain, not 3 years.

Yes there is plenty of availability if he rents but part of that approach would mean being a landlord in the UK. I rent out a property in the UK and it means dealing with stuff even when using the services of a letting agent.

I don't see how the new pension rules make any difference at all to the return on funds for a 68 year old, but that's a debate for another thread.

Inhertance tax. If you mean what he leaves, does he care? I always told my parents to make their lifestyle choices on their needs not mine, and now my kids tell me the same.

Anyway, there's an alternative view for the Op to take into consideration. 



Chopera said:


> You also need to take into account purchase costs, potential inheritance tax, how easy it is to sell if he decides to live somewhere else, etc. In Spain renters are more protected by law - contracts are for a minimum of 3 years and the landlord cannot raise the rent above the rate of inflation during that period. Also a lot of property owners in Spain are desperate to rent out property, so there should be good deals around and landlords should treat decent tenants well. Personally if I were a UK resident I wouldn't buy property anywhere if I were over 60. The new UK pension rules make investing in funds far more attractive.


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

Hi Allheart

Great post thanks - i think the main issue is that I don't think our family give my Dad the credit he deserves - I think its safe to say (without being too big headed) that I probably know him the best and have the closest relationship and I see a lot more positives that negatives with your points.

For all the years he and my mum were together he just worked and she organised everything as she is that way inclined so to the outside world he looked like someone who couldn't tie his own shoes when in fact he ran his own business for 30 years - he just always has concentrated on making money

He is resourceful and will find out problem if he needs to. He is a bit stuck with researching stuff as he's not as speedy with the internet but I have bought him an iPad and an iPhone over the last year or so and he gets on ok with that (better a little bit at a time!)

He is a social and easy going person but doesn't give that impression - this is someone who just up and left for Australia when he was 18 all on his own and traveled the world for 10 years and even in later life he joined a golf club where he knew no-one and within a few months he had made 30-40 friends there

He is also adventurous and loves to see new things - its just where he lives now there is nothing for him - its a dive.

As for what he likes about Spain - he'll be very happy that he has managed to get such a lot for 60-70K compared to what awful properties you would get in the UK for that - and it will probably make money (although that's not the point but he will be very happy that its doing that!)

I think its just shown me that the rest of my family just do not know him as well as they think they do - and its just a reflection of where they have neglected to be involved in his life until they hear he is planning to do something that they don't have the balls to do.

At the end of the day - this is someone who has never let anyone tell him how to spend his money or live his life - if he goes ahead all I can do is make sure that he has all the information I can find to make the right decision

If he doesn't do anything then, hey - got to spend some time in the sun with my Dad!


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

Horlics said:


> I still don't agree Chopera and here's why:
> 
> Purchase costs have to be paid in Spain but dad will spend half in Spain what he would in the UK for an apartment that will probably be bigger and nicer, even after purchase costs.
> 
> ...


I totally agree and anyway - he (and me) would never rent anything - its a complete waste of money and all you are doing in lining someone else's pockets. He will either buy there or buy somewhere else - the whole reason this has come up is to avoid having to pay rent out of savings.

As for pensions - I mean I have 30 years before I worry about that but cashing in all your pension in one go seems mighty risky in my eyes


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

hopalong35 said:


> I totally agree and anyway - he (and me) would never rent anything - its a complete waste of money and all you are doing in lining someone else's pockets. He will either buy there or buy somewhere else - the whole reason this has come up is to avoid having to pay rent out of savings.
> 
> As for pensions - I mean I have 30 years before I worry about that but cashing in all your pension in one go seems mighty risky in my eyes


From someone who has bought in Spain, and playing devils advocate .....

Why is renting such a waste of money in his position?

If he is buying with the intention of leaving the property to his family, then @Chopera is correct - you must take succession tax into consideration!

If he isn't buying for this reason, then why not rent and save the family any potential bills later on.


Remember - Spain is not UK. It's very different especially when it come to property.


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> From someone who has bought in Spain, and playing devils advocate .....
> 
> Why is renting such a waste of money in his position?
> 
> ...


I have told him to not worry about what he leaves for us - he wanted to put it in my name but I told him to not bother and whatever happens will happen.

He is old school and in his world paying rent is the cardinal sin - I'm inclined to agree


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> I still don't agree Chopera and here's why:
> 
> Purchase costs have to be paid in Spain but dad will spend half in Spain what he would in the UK for an apartment that will probably be bigger and nicer, even after purchase costs.
> 
> ...


Fair enough - I don't want to take the thread too far off course because the OP specifically asked about health care rather than property purchase decisions - I just wanted to point out that you have to weigh up all costs.

My understanding is the new pension rules allow you to place certain financial asset classes into a pension (not residential property though) and which you can use to generate income, and which are exempt from death duties. Of course this depends on individual circumstances, etc.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

hopalong35 said:


> I totally agree and anyway - he (and me) would never rent anything - its a complete waste of money and all you are doing in lining someone else's pockets. He will either buy there or buy somewhere else - the whole reason this has come up is to avoid having to pay rent out of savings.
> 
> As for pensions - I mean I have 30 years before I worry about that but cashing in all your pension in one go seems mighty risky in my eyes


You have to weigh the money wasted paying rent against the money wasted paying potentially up to 15% purchase costs, 10% sale costs, house insurance, community fees, maintenance, furnishings, etc. And that's assuming you won't have mortgage interest payments on top.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's just that both incure costs and you have to weigh them up. And I wasn't suggesting you cash in your pension, but rather your father considers investing it in other types of asset class, given the recent changes. Of course it might turn out that property works best for you after all, I just wanted to highlight some factors in making the decision.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

hopalong35 said:


> Hi Allheart
> 
> Great post thanks


You're welcome. I like your post too. You've really got your heart and head into this. Your dad is fortunate to have you helping him out.



hopalong35 said:


> i think the main issue is that I don't think our family give my Dad the credit he deserves - I think its safe to say (without being too big headed) that I probably know him the best and have the closest relationship and I see a lot more positives that negatives with your points.
> 
> For all the years he and my mum were together he just worked and she organised everything as she is that way inclined so to the outside world he looked like someone who couldn't tie his own shoes when in fact he ran his own business for 30 years - he just always has concentrated on making money
> 
> ...


It sounds to me like you have really strong arguments to advocate on your Dad's behalf with the family. It sounds to me like there is an adventurous side of him that may have been lurking inside since his travels to Australia, and that's definitely an experience that can help him out. I just wonder if the family is sitting there as nay-sayers, they will not be supportive of him and will do everything they can to make sure that they're right. That may jeopardise his ability to do this. All my friends in Canada are supportive of my move, and it makes a huge difference for when I'm having a rough time to have their support, and I wonder if it might be a necessary ingredient for your father too. But if he really is independent and a problem solver, he may do just fine with only your support. Or perhaps he has to do a little bit of proving himself first? 

If healthcare seems to be the major sore spot, perhaps that's the best thing for him to focus on to get their support? I have really, really bad health. Pretty much every part of my body is affected with some disorder or disease. But I'm managing very well. I had all my medical records translated from English to Spanish, and I brought in a translator for the first couple of visits. My Spanish has come a long way, and now I manage all appointments on my own. But it was a LOT of work especially due to my limited Spanish - learning how the clinic works, learning how the pharmacy works, changing all my medications (they have different names here, and some of them aren't available in Spain so I had to find substitutes), learning how to make appointments, developing a rapport with my healthcare providers... Those are just things off the top of my head. It's a whole lot of work to set up healthcare in a new country, but especially hard when you don't know the language. But it's not impossible, especially with the tips others gave you in this thread. Perhaps you can share with your family what you've learned from this thread too?


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Far away fields are green, so let's cut to the chase here. For a start, people give advice which was well earned on such forums as this. OK, there are the vested interests people who will anonymously suggest their opinion. But, then there are people like me who pass on advice willingly and free. You can take the advice or spurn it.

Your father has options. My initial advice to him would be to buy that flat in Leeds, rent it out and use the money gained to rent cheaper in Spain. This is a no brainer in my opinion. Then your father can have the best of both worlds earn in the UK and spend in Spain as he wishes.

Let's say your father is over 60. Buying in Spain would be ludicrous. He runs the risk of illegal builds in Murcia Province (not to be unerestimated); the chance that he could be left high and dry with the amounts of Spanish taxes and utilities. Once he buys in Spain he is anchored and limited in choice. Renting is the sensible way to go at this point in time. Things might change in the future, but certainly not in the lifetime of your father.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Leper said:


> He runs the risk of illegal builds in Murcia Province (not to be unerestimated);


Come on, that's done. It is very easy to buy with complete confidence these days.



Leper said:


> the chance that he could be left high and dry with the amounts of Spanish taxes and utilities.


Uh no, just no.



Leper said:


> Once he buys in Spain he is anchored


That's the idea. Plenty of people want to be.



Leper said:


> Renting is the sensible way to go at this point in time


Sensible if, at 68, you want to be a remote landlord with the hassles that go with it.

Leper matey, have you been on the Black Stuff again?  But I do get what you're saying about the rent-to-rent approach. I shall post more later.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Buyer beware. Enough said, especially in Spain. But. Your Dad is 68 and yet I am getting the impression he is 88. 68 is nothing these days - look at my earlier post. Unless there are other issues we are unaware of, I feel certain he will have no issues at all moving here. If your family don't want him to move then he has to make a choice and it is HIS choice. Of course it is difficult but it isn't that far away, not like moving to USA or Australia. If he picks the right spot close to an airport he will have no issues with that side of things and you family will soon learn, as many of us have discovered, that family living in Spain can be an enormous bonus!!!


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

I'm getting 2nd wind on the subject. Your dad is 68. If he is fully intent on buying property in Spain ensure it is bought in the name of one or more of his kids, saves hassle later with will etc.

Horlics gives the impression that I am doting. Believe me, I am not doting and have no vested interests in Spain other than renting out our apartment when we are not using it. I must have that pint with Horlics!

Be careful of vested interests e.g. real estate agents, abogados, vendors, ex-pats repeat ex-pats. The truth can be difficult to find in Spain so tread carefully. If buying employ a gestor to represent you solely.

Think seriously of buying that flat in Leeds where (unlike Spain) you probably will have no difficulty in letting it out 12 months of the year.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

As I see it, the only reason for buying in Spain at that age would be to leave it to your kids.
Rent and you have capital you may need when you are really old.
We owned in the UK, were landlords too. Now we are in our seventh year in a lovely house we could never afford to buy and with cash in the bank.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Op,

If your dad wants to live in Spain for the rest of his life then I don’t see an issue with him buying, so that he can be settled for good, move his stuff over, and feel comfortable with no chances of being moved from one place to another because a landlord wants him to. Note, although I endorse this approach, I would suggest he rents for a month or two first in his chosen area, just to make sure he really does like it there. But just a short time in a furnished place, then he could move out when his own is sorted.

A few here are recommending a rent-to-rent approach. Some are throwing in a few ‘scary’ comments about money wasted, and whilst purchase costs are just that, a cost, other things mentioned like community fees, maintenance, furnishings, etc. are going to apply regardless. I have a flat I rent out and last time I checked I saw money leaving my bank for community charges, maintenance, furnishing, etc. That said, somebody responded to you suggesting that renting isn’t necessarily throwing money away, and it isn’t. So, time for some numbers.

Let’s say dad has 121,000 pounds. He spends all of it on an apartment for 120k and gives 1k to a solicitor for handling the purchase (during the day, because daylight robbery is the stock trade of these people!).

If he rents it out, let’s say that after all expenses such as community fees, maintenance, agents fees, etc. and taking into account occasional empty periods while renters change, he gets a yield of 5%. He will get an income of 6,000. The theory, and probably the fact, is that he will be able to rent a nice place in Spain for less than that (probably 4,000 Euros a year), and he will probably be able to cover most of his bills with that too. Effectively, his life in Spain (before he goes to the bars and restaurants and takes day trips, etc.) is paid for by his investment in the UK. (rises in UK rents in future cover any rises in Spanish rents).

But here’s what many people are getting at. If house price growth where his flat is runs at 4% per year, then after 10 years his 120k flat will be worth just short of 171k.

So, if, after 10 years enjoying life in Spain, dad gets a bit frail and decides the UK is the place for him once more, then he moves back to the UK. He either lives in the flat, or sells it and spends his money in one of those nice retirement homes being beaten up by low grade immigrants (humour!), rather than live in it and give it to the kids when he’s gone.

Now, that sounds great (apart from being beaten up). He’s lived the life he wanted and has made a decent after tax profit on his apartment. But, it’s only great if the UK market does rise (I bought an apartment last year for 20% less than the last time it was sold, and there are many apartments selling now for the same as 10 years ago) and he doesn’t mind being a landlord while supposedly retired with his feet up.

It's a lifestyle choice. I'd tell my dad to carefully select a place in Spain, buy it, and live his life. Or, you do all the landlord stuff on his Leeds apartment so he can forget about such hassles and just use the money it brings.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> As I see it, the only reason for buying in Spain at that age would be to leave it to your kids.
> Rent and you have capital you may need when you are really old.
> We owned in the UK, were landlords too. Now we are in our seventh year in a lovely house we could never afford to buy and with cash in the bank.


Op,

This is a point. He'll be able to rent a nicer place than he would probably buy. If you stood him between them and said, ok, you can buy the one on the left or rent the one on the right, and it's all paid for (see other post), then he might swing for the nicer rental.


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## hopalong35 (Mar 2, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> As I see it, the only reason for buying in Spain at that age would be to leave it to your kids.
> Rent and you have capital you may need when you are really old.
> We owned in the UK, were landlords too. Now we are in our seventh year in a lovely house we could never afford to buy and with cash in the bank.


Spoke to my Dad and while he still will not waste money on renting - IF - he goes ahead them he wants to put in me and my brother name


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

hopalong35 said:


> Spoke to my Dad and while he still will not waste money on renting - IF - he goes ahead them he wants to put in me and my brother name


It all depends on your circumstances. My son already has a property here. He wouldn't relish the prospect of having to deal with another property he might have to wait years to sell and wouldn't want to rent.
Renting is not a 'waste of money'. It's merely an opinión to say so, not a fact.For us it was a considered choice.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> It all depends on your circumstances. My son already has a property here. He wouldn't relish the prospect of having to deal with another property he might have to wait years to sell and wouldn't want to rent.
> Renting is not a 'waste of money'. It's merely an opinión to say so, not a fact.For us it was a considered choice.


Yes I always thought the "renting is a waste of money" generalisation was just estate agent/banker propaganda to encourage people to buy houses with large mortgages. It really depends on individual circumstances.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Putting a house in your children's names can backfire if there is a divorce.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

As a bare minimum renting at least provides a service, a roof over your head so it can't entirely be seen as a total waste of money can it?

However there are many circumstances in which that it may not be the best use of your money if another option is available. It is very easy to see where the 'throwing money away' statements come from even if they are not entirely accurate.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Pazcat said:


> It is very easy to see where the 'throwing money away' statements come from even if they are not entirely accurate.


Yep, it is easy to see where the idea it's money wasted comes from.

E.g. A working professional spends his entire working life renting. When he retires he has managed to save a bit of money, which he will use to either rent for the rest of his life (if it lasts) or buy a place to spend his retirement in.

If he'd had taken a mortgage and bought the place he spent his working days living in, then when retiring he would have still had the same saving, although maybe a little less, but had a house to spend his retirement in rent free.

While you're working and earning, it's a good idea to buy the place you live in, if you can afford it.

I such circumstances, rent money is money chucked away.

But that's just in the scenario. Others are different.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I completely agree, I am loathed to keep paying rent for much longer for similar reasons. Hopefully we wont have too shortly, the benefits far out weigh the negatives. 

For us at least, I can understand others may feel differently but hey-ho.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pazcat said:


> I completely agree, I am loathed to keep paying rent for much longer for similar reasons. Hopefully we wont have too shortly, the benefits far out weigh the negatives.
> 
> For us at least, I can understand others may feel differently but hey-ho.


I bought my first house when I was in my mid-twenties. I had no mortgage so it made sense to buy as at that time house prices were rising fast. Then I bought others and got rental income from them then sold at a reasonable profit when I got fed up of being a landlord.
When we decided to leave the UK it made sense to turn bricks and mortar into cash so we could live comfortably in our dotage, have enough to pay for any care needed.
We lived for years in a detached cottage, built in the 1780s, which I bought for £5000 cash in 1978 and renovated for a further £15k or so.
Sold in 2005 just before the crisis. 
Turns out to have been a wise choice, with a lot of luck in the timing.

Have noticed a few things around our rented house that need attention. Will tell our landlord when he comes from Austria next month...


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

*A point to consider...!*

Hi all - I'm reading this thread whilst still in the UK, although my family's recent health problems have been, more or less, resolved, leaving me free to return to Spain very shortly, thank goodness. 

Given my current English location, it's perhaps unsurprising that I should be, already, heartily sick of the 'wall to wall' media coverage of the forthcoming National Election, to be held in May - with endless TV News portrayals, debates and 'analyses' of each day's electioneering, with all Party leaders out and about, tramping pavements, making stirring speeches and 'pressing the flesh' of our 'Great British Public...! 

So, getting to my point, at last ..the commitment, by the British Tories, to a 2016 'Yes/No' Referendum on the thorny issue of EU membership, should they form the next Government ( with or without UKIP's support...)! 

The reality is that the case for remaining in Europe has still not been heard by many, many people, whilst the overwhelmingly 'Right-wing' print media continues to churn out its 'anti- EU message, with impunity. The Labour Party is, as a result, now under increasing pressure to promise such a referendum, too - should it gain power next month! 

In that context, I'm fascinated to read yet more posts from 'would- be' expats. and migrants seeking advice and information about Spanish house purchase, suitable communities and, of course, the Spanish Public Heathcare system! Although we've had, previously, on this forum, other past threads devoted to members' opinions on the potential for a UK exit from the EU, we haven't had, I believe, a really serious look at the likely effects of the country's withdrawal upon the lives of some 300,000 British residents in Spain..! 

Why, for example, should any of us assume that the forthcoming UK Govt. of whatever 
persuasion, would agree to continue refunding Spanish regional and local Govts. the cost of British pensioners' free access to the Spanish Public Healthcare facilities? Would hospitals and GP surgeries be willing to treat British patients, in a 'post- exit' context? There would be other, equally crucial, issues to consider, too - free access to schools, for example! I have, in fact, checked out the Forum's 'Greek' section, hoping to discover just how the 'expat.' and migrant population is feeling, now that the possibility of a Greek exit is a very real threat...but, I could find no reference to this matter, whatsoever! It would seem that our counterparts in Greece are all remarkably relaxed about this whole issue - but, are they right...? Are we..? 

IMO, I would not wish to begin the process of property purchase in Spain, just now - nor would I be encouraging a parent of mine to relocate without maintaining a 'bolt- hole' back in the UK. 

2016 is not far away, so I'd certainly want to know the outcome of any such referendum, first. In the current political climate, it's been stated that a majority of British citizens would vote to leave the EU - the largest single trading 'bloc' in the world..! Job opportunities are supposed to be made available to EU citizens firstly, so UK migrants of working age would no longer be eligible, legally, to be employed in Spain, surely? 

'Vamos a ver..' as our Spanish friends might say - possibly with baited breath, given the results of current UK polls. A roller coaster ride, indeed, right up until 'Election Day' on May 7th..! 

Saludos, 
GC


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## Tammydog (Mar 7, 2015)

*Getting frustrated with others*

We are just going to Murcia to look at properties and are meeting with a representative from a company called Angels that might be worth checking out? We're going over in 9 days time. And I will let you know what they are about. But seems to be quite good as they translate your Medical records and hold them on a data base and can be on 24 call for translations and even care in hospital. And the fees seem very low for the basic package they offer. Could just give the family peace of mind and stop the doubts for your dad as well. May be we will meet up with him for a glass of wine in the sunshine looking at sea


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

So how much does this Angels charge? It wouldn't be the sort of thing I would pay for, basically just a bit of translation. If I was going to pay monthly subscriptions may as well have private medical insurance which provides English speaking Doctors.


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## Tammydog (Mar 7, 2015)

For the translation of our medical records given us two copies and puting them on their database they have quoted 49euros and lowest package for the two of us is 29euros a month for both of us so I believe. We would not get PHC as Hubby has many ongoing probs. although under control at present he would not be covered for his previous complaints. So for us may be good? But will tell you more when I have met up with them. You should be able to look them up as they have a website. Good luck with finding a property for your Dad. He is lucky to have you both to look out for his future.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Don't want to take this off topic so any responses might be better shifted to Tasca. Apologies in advance, dear mods.

My bet, were I to place one.

Not going to happen. The referendum, that is.

When they speak of a referendum they also talk about a re-negotiation of the UK's relationship with the EU. Any shift at all in our relationship gives them the 'out' they need to drop the referendum.

Cameron has announced that he won't do a third term. It will be easy for his successor to wash his hands of a dropped referendum and blame it on Cameron, so that will limit the political damage of the side stepping.

And most significantly, they don't trust you and me. They think the UK is populated with idiots who can't be trusted to come to the right decision, only they can. They are right to an extent though, although I'd put the idiot ratio at about 2 in 5.

People who want out of Europe don't have to wait for a referendum, they can vote UKIP.



GUAPACHICA said:


> So, getting to my point, at last ..the commitment, by the British Tories, to a 2016 'Yes/No' Referendum on the thorny issue of EU membership, should they form the next Government ( with or without UKIP's support...)!
> GC


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Isobella said:


> So how much does this Angels charge? It wouldn't be the sort of thing I would pay for, basically just a bit of translation. If I was going to pay monthly subscriptions may as well have private medical insurance which provides English speaking Doctors.


Its not " just a bit of translation."
Medical records have to be translated by people who are qualified medical translators, although many aren't .
One medical word interpreted wrongly could be disastrous.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi all - I'm reading this thread whilst still in the UK, although my family's recent health problems have been, more or less, resolved, leaving me free to return to Spain very shortly, thank goodness.
> 
> Given my current English location, it's perhaps unsurprising that I should be, already, heartily sick of the 'wall to wall' media coverage of the forthcoming National Election, to be held in May - with endless TV News portrayals, debates and 'analyses' of each day's electioneering, with all Party leaders out and about, tramping pavements, making stirring speeches and 'pressing the flesh' of our 'Great British Public...!
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you might be returning to civilisation soon. You won't get away from electioneering (municipals on 24 May, general election in November) but at least they only start the wall-to-wall coverage a couple of weeks beforehand.

I don't think Britain will leave the EU even if there is a yes vote in a referendum. Not even if Farage became PM! The reason is that despite what they tell you, the government doesn't run the country, business leaders do - and it would be a disaster for business.

There are over five million Brits living and working in other EU countries. They aren't all going to up sticks and return to the mother-ship. If push came to shove I would take Spanish citizenship - I'll have been here ten years by then.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Glad to hear you might be returning to civilisation soon. You won't get away from electioneering (municipals on 24 May, general election in November) but at least they only start the wall-to-wall coverage a couple of weeks beforehand.
> 
> I don't think Britain will leave the EU even if there is a yes vote in a referendum. Not even if Farage became PM! The reason is that despite what they tell you, the government doesn't run the country, business leaders do - and it would be a disaster for business.
> 
> There are over five million Brits living and working in other EU countries. They aren't all going to up sticks and return to the mother-ship. If push came to shove I would take Spanish citizenship - I'll have been here ten years by then.


How would that affect your state pension and increases?
Also, would it affect your right to NHS treatment in the UK , the criteria for which is undergoing change.
What advantages and disadvantages are there to being a Spanish citizen?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> How would that affect your state pension and increases?
> Also, would it affect your right to NHS treatment in the UK , the criteria for which is undergoing change.
> What advantages and disadvantages are there to being a Spanish citizen?


I'd still get my pensions, obviously. The UK may or may not continue to make inflation increases on the State pension - I suspect there would be an uproar if they didn't - but I have enough to live on even if they didn't, as I own my home outright and my outgoings are minimal.

I wouldn't expect to or want to use the NHS for medical treatment. So if the UK no longer funded my healthcare here I would become a Spanish citizen and be entitled to it that way. 

Advantages to citizenship? This is my home. It would be nice to have the vote. Once my mother has gone (she's 85) I will have no ties to the UK, I have no desire to live there again, and I doubt I'd ever move to other country (unless there's another civil war or something, heaven forbid, in which case I'd probably go somewhere else in Southern Europe).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

In order to call a Referendum, Cameron has to win a majority on May 7th. I doubt he'll get it (in fact I'm praying he won't). UKIP won't have enough seats to give him a majority over Labour, the SNP, the Lib Dems even if the Tories are the largest Party in Parliament.
So it's highly unlikely that it will take place, certainly not in 2017 as promised.
In the unlikely event of a Referendum taking place, all the big guns would start firing for a 'Yes' vote. The EU after Maastricht was reorganised for the benefit of global finance so they won't want to see major players like the UK taking the ball off the field (Greece is another matter. It isn't that important to the EU,the UK is). There will be scare stories of massive job losses, weak £, and so on.
If anyone is looking for something to worry about, focus on global warming, the threat of ISIS, an ageing population and loads of other nasty things that are here and now, not on a referendum that most probably will not take place.

The fact that the Tories have resorted to such vile and disgraceful personal attacks as the Fallon 'stab in the back' smear proves they know, most likely from Lord Ashcroft's private polls, that they are on the way out. Audience reaction at last night's 'Question Time' from Bristol was very hostile to the Tory, poor old Liz Truss who came over as the bossy strident Head Girl of a (very) minor public school.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

There seems to be a vague idea that the UK can just vote yes or no. So far Brussels has said very little, but if it was seen that a Brit govt was serious about a referendum, then I think Brussels would definitely lay down the law. It would take years to unwind the country from the EU. It is more likely that Brussels would throw in a couple of sweets just to shut up the British politicos which would be gratefully received.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't think the UK will leave the EU but if they did what could Brussels actually do about it....nuke us. Morocco is selling lots of produce in the UK now, tomatoes, strawberries etc, we won't starve


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I don't think the UK will leave the EU but if they did what could Brussels actually do about it....nuke us. Morocco is selling lots of produce in the UK now, tomatoes, strawberries etc, we won't starve


Isobella, it's not a case that the UK won't starve; if the UK leaves the EU its customers will be reduced and you will be left with loads of food which will rot and the country will be starved of income. 

That's the bottom line.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hold on! If UK leaves the EU, that means we will have to eat all those bright red, unripe, tasteless strawberries from Huelva, ourselves.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

An American company sells rather a lot of phones and tablets in the UK, without being a member of Europe. Trade has always happened across borders, and it will continue to do so.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Horlics said:


> An American company sells rather a lot of phones and tablets in the UK, without being a member of Europe. Trade has always happened across borders, and it will continue to do so.


But the EU can put up barriers that make it difficult or expensive for non-EU countries to sell to EU countries. Cast your mind back to the pre-EU era for Spain.

Spain has always produced a lot of very good quality olive oil. It could not sell to EU countries because of protectionist rules designed to protect EU countries (principally Italy) that also produced olive oil. However Italy could not (and still doesn't) produce enough oil to meet the demand. Italy (as a founder member) had a concession from the EU to import olive oil (from Spain), add about 4% Italian oil and then sell it on as "Italian" oil. Spain gained because it had an outlet for its oil, albeit at a low price.

The same situation prevails today. If you look at what Italy exports, you will find it is considerably more than what it produces.

Before Spain entered the EU, the Italians built up such a huge overseas market that it is only now that the Spanish are managing to get their foot properly in the door with exports to the likes of the USA. Remember that Spain is the world's largest producer of olive oil - I have a lot of interest in that since 62% of all the oil in Spain (including real Extra Virgin grade) is actually produced in this province and that also makes this province the largest producer of olive oil in the world.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Leper said:


> Isobella, it's not a case that the UK won't starve; if the UK leaves the EU its customers will be reduced and you will be left with loads of food which will rot and the country will be starved of income.
> 
> That's the bottom line.


What food do we export in such volume, I wonder.....
Our main exports are financial and other services, not agricultural produce. 
Besides, I remember back in the 1970s/1980s when we had grain mountains of surplus grain we couldn't sell because of a glut in the European market....ditto butter mountains and wine lakes.
Now food did rot then...because of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
The CAP was not designed with the UK's benefit in mind.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The CAP was not designed with the UK's benefit in mind.


No, only the French agricultural system of smallholders who had to make a living out of small plots - hence massive subsidies which the UK farmers, post the UK joining, did very nicely out of.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

On the original post I have just come back from a month in Spain visiting people I know there. I have met many ex pats on this visit who are now desperate to get back to the UK as they have gotten older they have got more frail etc. or just a little poorly from old age. It is not that they don't like Spain they just want to be near family when they are getting older and frailer. I would not buy a property again in Spain, but rent if I wanted to go there. That way you are not trapped should circumstances change like many people in Spain are today. Buying the right property in the UK and renting it out and using the income for a property in Spain is a good idea, UK property is always in the longer tern going to be a good investment.

On the issue of UKs membership of the EU, I have no opinion either way but as a retired academic that taught amongst other things some philosophy and the philosophy of economics, I think that the case that the UK would have economic problems should it leave the EU is a bit of a red herring. The UK is currently running a trade deficit with the EU ( and has for many years) of about £7 billion per month, trading into the EU 31 billion, whilst purchasing 38 billion from it. The UK is trading with other parts of the world, non EU, around 39 billion per month. The EU has a lot to lose should the UK withdraw as the £38 billion that the UK buys from the EU is an essential and large component of many of the southern European economies. I have many friends and colleagues who are very well educated and well read but don't form part of the London cliques. Overall there is a tendency amongst my associates at least to want a debate on the EU and then the option to leave and I think that the vast majority of British people want to have that option too. Currently if there was a referenda run today I think there would be a vote to leave but who knows once the debate is carried out what would be the outcome. I suspect that the EU would want to keep the UK in, being one of the few net contributors to their budget and a big trading partner. The big issue, however, for both the EU and the UK will be freedom of movement.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Many British lived happily, without complications in Spain long before Spain joined the EU. Although I stand corrected i think that the reciprocal health arrangements for pensioners existed before Spain's entry in the EU.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

For most Brit people the issue would be immigration. 
With reference to elderly or frail Brits returning home, then that could happen equally with a healthy person from Cornwall who moves to the Hebrides and twenty years later feels a bit lost and yearns for what was originally home. For some of these elderly Brits it is true that they will probably get a lot less for their house and given the cost of housing in many parts of the UK now wouldn't be able to buy what they originally sold.
I would agree that anyone over a certain age should be content to rent and hang on to what they have in the UK. But each to his own.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> But the EU can put up barriers that make it difficult or expensive for non-EU countries to sell to EU countries. Cast your mind back to the pre-EU era for Spain.
> 
> Spain has always produced a lot of very good quality olive oil. It could not sell to EU countries because of protectionist rules designed to protect EU countries (principally Italy) that also produced olive oil. However Italy could not (and still doesn't) produce enough oil to meet the demand. Italy (as a founder member) had a concession from the EU to import olive oil (from Spain), add about 4% Italian oil and then sell it on as "Italian" oil. Spain gained because it had an outlet for its oil, albeit at a low price.
> 
> ...


It is the best oil too, but perhaps it would be on UK shelves more out of the EU. Not easy to get the superior oil from Jaen in UK shops.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Baldilocks, I have just checked my bottle of olive oil and all it says is origen españa. Do you have the names of some of the companies from Jaen?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Justina said:


> Baldilocks, I have just checked my bottle of olive oil and all it says is origen españa. Do you have the names of some of the companies from Jaen?


Many are in co-ops. We don't buy it, so 'tis difficult - we get ours free from friends who [cold] press their own. One name might come up is San Isidro from whom we get it in 5l. bottles for friends and have 3 x 5l bottles sitting here in readiness for some old friends from Galicia who are visiting in a couple of weeks.

Personally I can't stand the stuff!


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Olive oil*



baldilocks said:


> Many are in co-ops. We don't buy it, so 'tis difficult - we get ours free from friends who [cold] press their own. One name might come up is San Isidro from whom we get it in 5l. bottles for friends and have 3 x 5l bottles sitting here in readiness for some old friends from Galicia who are visiting in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Personally I can't stand the stuff!


Thanks and can't understand anyone not liking olive oil. Lucky friends.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Justina said:


> For most Brit people the issue would be immigration.
> With reference to elderly or frail Brits returning home, then that could happen equally with a healthy person from Cornwall who moves to the Hebrides and twenty years later feels a bit lost and yearns for what was originally home. For some of these elderly Brits it is true that they will probably get a lot less for their house and given the cost of housing in many parts of the UK now wouldn't be able to buy what they originally sold.
> I would agree that anyone over a certain age should be content to rent and hang on to what they have in the UK. But each to his own.



The difference between having bought in the UK and having bought in Spain is that you can normally sell a UK home within 6 months but if you can sell at all in Spain, it can take 3 to 5 years and that is a long time to yearn to get back to the family for support. You are right about prices, you need at least about £200k to buy a reasonable property and much more in the south. At present prices are rocketing, frighteningly so.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

ABERAFON said:


> The difference between having bought in the UK and having bought in Spain is that you can normally sell a UK home within 6 months but if you can sell at all in Spain, it can take 3 to 5 years and that is a long time to yearn to get back to the family for support. You are right about prices, you need at least about £200k to buy a reasonable property and much more in the south. At present prices are rocketing, frighteningly so.


Depends on location. Not true of all properties in Spain.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> What food do we export in such volume, I wonder.....
> Our main exports are financial and other services, not agricultural produce.
> Besides, I remember back in the 1970s/1980s when we had grain mountains of surplus grain we couldn't sell because of a glut in the European market....ditto butter mountains and wine lakes.
> Now food did rot then...because of the EU Common Agricultural Policy.
> The CAP was not designed with the UK's benefit in mind.


Britains Food Exports:- Dairy produce, Milk, Yogurt, Butter, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Poultry, Vegetables, Newspapers, Alcohol (especially Scotch Whisky), Cereals, Sliced Bread (Gawd!), Tinned Beans, Tomato Sauce, Spam (not included in 'meat' above), Jamie Oliver's products, Frozen Chips, Processed Hamburgers, Vegetable Oils, Oh! those gawdawful Yorkshire Puds . . . But, I'm sure the Yanks will take the lot (. . . and from what I see on tv, they look like it), Certainly, the rest of Europe won't.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

I forgot to add in that Brit specialty . . . Marmite (Yummeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!)


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Seriously, Folks, Just imagine what the UK could be exporting worldwide including the EU if they could only learn from the Irish or even the French!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Leper said:


> Britains Food Exports:- Dairy produce, Milk, Yogurt, Butter, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Poultry, Vegetables, Newspapers, Alcohol (especially Scotch Whisky), Cereals, Sliced Bread (Gawd!), Tinned Beans, Tomato Sauce, Spam (not included in 'meat' above), Jamie Oliver's products, Frozen Chips, Processed Hamburgers, Vegetable Oils, Oh! those gawdawful Yorkshire Puds . . . But, I'm sure the Yanks will take the lot (. . . and from what I see on tv, they look like it), Certainly, the rest of Europe won't.


America is our biggest importer outside the EU. It is clear that the UK is not popular within the EU and they probably only buy things from us that they can't get elsewhere so they would still buy them if we were outside the EU. Goods such as pharmaceuticals, chemicals etc. There are world trade agreements too.

Whichever side your are on, in or out, I am sure most agree the whole Brussels set up needs a good shake up.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Leper said:


> Britains Food Exports:- Dairy produce, Milk, Yogurt, Butter, Beef, Pork, Lamb, Poultry, Vegetables, Newspapers, Alcohol (especially Scotch Whisky), Cereals, Sliced Bread (Gawd!), Tinned Beans, Tomato Sauce, Spam (not included in 'meat' above), Jamie Oliver's products, Frozen Chips, Processed Hamburgers, Vegetable Oils, Oh! those gawdawful Yorkshire Puds . . . But, I'm sure the Yanks will take the lot (. . . and from what I see on tv, they look like it), Certainly, the rest of Europe won't.


Of course, the rest of Europe won't. They have their own gastronomic delights which, in many cases, are far better than the stuff you have listed, a lot of which is US orientated.

Some UK cheeses are welcomed in Europe but what else, in that list, is there that European countries do not produce, themselves (and often of better quality)?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Not much except whisky, gin, Welsh lamb and Angus beef. Strange we export yogurt seeing as the supermarkets are full of the French stuff I also prefer English butter, especially ones produced locally in Sussex. French butter is good too.

Hey, are we off topic or what


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## Tammydog (Mar 7, 2015)

Yes this has gone off topic I was quite interested in the original one. As over next week looking to buy or rent?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tammydog said:


> Yes this has gone off topic I was quite interested in the original one. As over next week looking to buy or rent?


Ah...but into every topic creeps a 'let's take a pop at the UK' comment.
Whether it's the goddamn awful food, the dreadful weather, the racism, the violence, too much PC, the over-mighty nanny state...

The fact is that everything, yes everything, is so much better in Spain.


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