# Cons of moving to or living in South Africa



## vegasboy

The purpose of this thread is to focus soley on reasons to oppose and discourage moving to South Africa, providing information and facts of South Africa, backed up with statistics and references where necessary.

Another similar thread, *Pros of moving to or living in South Africa* can be found on this forum to provide useful, valuable, honest and relevant information in order to establish a way to weigh the issues thoughtfully and reach an informed decision.

Please post positives/pros on the *Pros of moving to or living in South Africa* thread


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## vegasboy

Just one additional comment to this post: This post is not necessarily to discourage people from moving to or living in South Africa, but to provide information and forewarn others of the realities as experienced or perceived by those who wish to do so.


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## vegasboy

Malema+Bob=Disaster


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## Halo

Getting your money out is a problem.


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## vuvuzeela

The taxi's and road fatalities.


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## vegasboy

Check nationmaster.com South Africa: 

No.1 for rapes per capita in the world; 
No.1 for murder with fire arms in the world; 
No.1 for Gun violence homicide in the world; 
No.1 for manslaughter per capita in the world;
No.2 for murders per capita in the wolrd, and the list goes on. 

How on earth can any person in his right mind claim "...but crime happens all over the world..." South Africa has become a fools paradise...

Economist Mike Schussler recently said more South Africans received money from welfare than from employment with 12,8 million people working -- not all for money -- and 13,8 million people receiving welfare payments from the proceeds of five million taxpayers with a population of 50 million and growing.

"I don't know of any other country in the world where the recipients of welfare are greater than the amount of people who work."

Schussler said that according to a recent joint report from the African Union and the United Nations, SA currently had the lowest adult employment ratio in Africa.

What does it say of society when it's health care workers strike and deny dying patients access to hospital services; even disrupt operations while in process? Is this the type of nursing you would expect when you need health care. NO? Well, I have news for you: With the integrated health care on it's way, state and private hospitals will work as one, and those same nurses who blatantly caused patients deaths, just may be the nurse you or your loved one need to rely on when you are at your most vulnerable in a private hospital hijacked by government. Ontwaak jy wat slaap en staan op uit jou droomwereld...


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## vegasboy

"It's a simple policy. We're going to take the land, but we'll compensate and we'll determine the price. We go to [Eugene] Terre'Blanche's farm and say: for these many hectares we will give you R2m, thank you very much. If you say that's too little and you don't want it, then we take the land and give you nothing. It's called expropriation with compensation determined by the state." - Julius Malema 27 Aug 2010.

Read full article:  Land reform not working - Malema: News24: South Africa: News


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## Halo

The extreme cost of insurance - car / contents / health etc


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## vegasboy

*Small Farmers talk of land grab: 16 August 2010 *

By Francis Hweshe

At a meeting in Cape Town on Sunday, the farmers hailed President Robert Mugabe for taking land by force from white commercial farmers.

They say the only way to "fast-track land redistribution" was to "take it by force from the whites".

The farmers were part of several activists, researchers, academics and policy-makers from across the country who were hosted by the Alternative Information and Development Centre and Trust for Community Outreach and Education.

"Land needs to be taken by force. There is no need for compensation. History tells us that the land belongs to our forefathers. There were no negotiations," said Sithembele Tempi, coordinator of the Ilizwi lamafama from Eastern Cape.

Read the full article here: Small farmers talk of land grab -  MSN ZA News


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## Halo

Petty crime is often accompanied by extreme violence.


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## jojo

Halo said:


> Petty crime is often accompanied by extreme violence.



I have to say this Halo. Your profile picture, those children of yours look lovely, however on a quick glance it so looks like the older chap is strangling the little one 

Sorry, :focus::focus:

Jo xxx


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## vegasboy

*Report on Trafficking of Body Parts in Mosambique and South Africa:*

Information on trafficking body parts has previously been based almost entirely on hearsay and has been easy for both Governments and Civil Society to claim it either does not occur or is so infrequent it does not merit any response or attention. The findings in this report however, show that regular mutilations occur both in South Africa and Mozambique and body parts are forcibly removed from children and adults causing death or severe disability. Throughout the report, informants share personal experiences which confirm that body parts are taken across the border between South Africa and Mozambique.
Trafficking Body Parts in Mozambique and South Africa, Mozambique Human Rights League


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## Johanna

I do find the disregard for the law quite disconcerting... especially when it comes to driving. Most people ignore traffic signs and speed limits.
The number of fatalities on SA roads is a huge worry.


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## Halo

The cost of living is high when compared to Europe/USA/Australia - Comparing apples with apples.


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## Jason1

There is a cost of living which most of the world does not even know about.....private security, expensive alarm systems , high walls with razer wire or electrified


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## Jason1

Ever heard of a "Car Guard" there is no free parking anywhere in the country with the unemployed harassing drivers for all their spare change.


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## Johanna

Jason1 said:


> Ever heard of a "Car Guard" there is no free parking anywhere in the country with the unemployed harassing drivers for all their spare change.


Used to pay about £3.00 per hour for under roof parking in the Grosvenor Centre in Chester....


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## marieannetta

We support a large welfare grant system. Small % of people contribute to the tax burden. Public transport is non-existent outside of the large cities. We pay for private medical, private security companies and semi-private schooling.

However, do pay attention to the Western Cape - they had minor disruption to services, compared to Gauteng, during the recent strikes.
Also, roads are regularly repaired and public services work very well. That's a lot of great things happening in an area that has terrible weather!

OK, OK - sorry Capetonians but, even if you are blinded by the beauty of that Mountain, the weather is still yuck!:rain:


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## Therooster

vegasboy said:


> Check nationmaster.com South Africa:
> 
> No.1 for rapes per capita in the world;
> No.1 for murder with fire arms in the world;
> No.1 for Gun violence homicide in the world;
> No.1 for manslaughter per capita in the world;
> No.2 for murders per capita in the wolrd, and the list goes on.



I know this is the place for cons, but those nation master stats are from 8 years ago. The murder rate for example is HALF what's stated on that nation master page. Don't misrepresent things with false stats please. 

South Africa is no longer in the top 10 for murders out of countries that release accurate stats. And if Africa and the rest of the third world could report stats or accurate stats I bet we would not be in the top 100.

Furthermore very little of that crime affects people above the poverty line. If you're not young, poor and black you're probably 1% of those murders.


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## vegasboy

SABC News 10 September 2010: SA is now in the top ten in the world with road deaths. Three out of ten on SA roads do not have a valid drivers licence.


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## Johanna

vegasboy said:


> SABC News 10 September 2010: SA is now in the top ten in the world with road deaths. Three out of ten on SA roads do not have a valid drivers licence.


vegasboy, in one of my postings I mentioned the total disregard for the law and the example I mentioned was road accidents, having driven in the UK for so many years on congested roads where you cannot speed, it is quite frightening here.As you mentioned, many drivers do not have a valid driver's licence and the cars ( especially taxis ) are not roadworthy ..... I see many positives, but the behaviour of many drivers in this country is really something that upsets me a lot.


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## Jason1

Therooster said:


> I know this is the place for cons, but those nation master stats are from 8 years ago. The murder rate for example is HALF what's stated on that nation master page. Don't misrepresent things with false stats please.
> 
> South Africa is no longer in the top 10 for murders out of countries that release accurate stats. And if Africa and the rest of the third world could report stats or accurate stats I bet we would not be in the top 100.
> 
> Furthermore very little of that crime affects people above the poverty line. If you're not young, poor and black you're probably 1% of those murders.


What a load of rubbish the rich people are often targets of crime (I know many wealthy people who were targets of hi-jackings and house robberies while at home with guns in Johannesburg). I worked for a small company of about 30 people and 90%(Including me who had an Ak47 pointed at me and my pregnant wife for our wallets & phones in an upmarket shopping mall) of us were affected by crime which involved the use of guns and some of their family members were killed and some were crippled for life. The poor people are affected by a larger proportion of the crime but the crime is everywhere in Johannesburg. I know of more people that have been affected by violent crime than I know who have died of aids.


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## vegasboy

Jason1 said:


> What a load of rubbish the rich people are often targets of crime (I know many wealthy people who were targets of hi-jackings and house robberies while at home with guns in Johannesburg). I worked for a small company of about 30 people and 90%(Including me who had an Ak47 pointed at me and my pregnant wife for our wallets & phones in an upmarket shopping mall) of us were affected by crime which involved the use of guns and some of their family members were killed and some were crippled for life. The poor people are affected by a larger proportion of the crime but the crime is everywhere in Johannesburg. I know of more people that have been affected by violent crime than I know who have died of aids.


 Jason, thank you for setting the record straight. While driving in my car two days ago my friend sitting next to me got a call from a lady friend whose life partner of 19 years was just hijacked and killed in Johannesburg.

In the last three weeks alone two of my properties in different areas of Cape Town were vandalised at night, two unrelated incidents. At the one all the copper plumbing pipes were stolen (for the third time), at the other, an office block, all the stainless steel staircase rails were stolen, and the cctv shows that the latter was done by white people. 

Rooster is a trouble-maker and a total and utter unreliable source on this forum. Do yourself a favour and search some of his previous posts here on other threads. People have the right to differ as much as they wish, but we have to bear in mind that others visiting this forum use it to make life changing decisions. He disappeared for a month or so and has now surfaced again. I read a few of his very latest posts and thought he got himself together a bit, but alas!


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## Halo

Sounds like a she to me !


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## Therooster

Jason1 said:


> What a load of rubbish the rich people are often targets of crime (I know many wealthy people who were targets of hi-jackings and house robberies while at home with guns in Johannesburg). I worked for a small company of about 30 people and 90%(Including me who had an Ak47 pointed at me and my pregnant wife for our wallets & phones in an upmarket shopping mall) of us were affected by crime which involved the use of guns and some of their family members were killed and some were crippled for life. The poor people are affected by a larger proportion of the crime but the crime is everywhere in Johannesburg. I know of more people that have been affected by violent crime than I know who have died of aids.


Rubbish ! Bullsheet and total carp ! 90% of a group of 30 people had AK's pointed at them and other such experiences ? I know 100's of people who live in JHB and I don't know a single one who has had this experience or can even tell me about someone they know who has ! How can our situation be so different ? You're talking such a load of total tosh ! I am not saying nobody in JHB experiences crime. But the way you present is is off the wall ! 

It may have happened to you...well something clear did to make you this neurotic....but don't project your experience and then feed of the alarmist media and pretend that's everyone reality. 

Again please ask expats who have moved to South Africa for their opinions. That's all I am saying. Be very wary of these people who have an extremely large bias against South Africa, based probably in no small part in their "old South Africa" military brainwashing.


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## Halo

Rooster = Anecdotal nonsense.

Many of us never went to the Army sister. Now put your tin-foil hat back on... 

I meet Saffars weekly who have immigrated due to crime - Most did not want to leave but had to for fear of the future. We have kids for fooks sake, why the hell would anyone in there right mind chose SA over OZ/USA/Canada/Europe....?


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## Therooster

Halo said:


> Rooster = Anecdotal nonsense.
> 
> Many of us never went to the Army sister. Now put your tin-foil hat back on...
> 
> I meet Saffars weekly who have immigrated due to crime - Most did not want to leave but had to for fear of the future. We have kids for fooks sake, why the hell would anyone in there right mind chose SA over OZ/USA/Canada/Europe....?


You hit the nail on the head. FEAR. 

Irrational fear in my opinion. Created in no small part by people like you lot. 

And by the way the South African white population grew by 100 000 people last year. There are loads more returning than leaving. And 20 000 brits emmigrate here every year not to mention trucks loads of other Europeans and Americans. Not everyone sees what you're hyper active and neurotic imagination sees.


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## dizzyizzy

Please read my post on the healthcare thread and chill, unless you want these threads to get closed down.


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## Therooster

dizzyizzy said:


> Please read my post on the healthcare thread and chill, unless you want these threads to get closed down.


You're right to moderate this. You can't let these guys run riot with their counter productive agenda. People wanting information about South Africa deserve to hear a fair and balanced perspective. Not have one dreary alarmist version shouted at them.


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## Halo

BBC - Andrew Harding on Africa: Crime statistics - less swagger please


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## Jason1

Therooster said:


> Rubbish ! Bullsheet and total carp ! 90% of a group of 30 people had AK's pointed at them and other such experiences ? I know 100's of people who live in JHB and I don't know a single one who has had this experience or can even tell me about someone they know who has ! How can our situation be so different ? You're talking such a load of total tosh ! I am not saying nobody in JHB experiences crime. But the way you present is is off the wall !
> 
> It may have happened to you...well something clear did to make you this neurotic....but don't project your experience and then feed of the alarmist media and pretend that's everyone reality.
> 
> Again please ask expats who have moved to South Africa for their opinions. That's all I am saying. Be very wary of these people who have an extremely large bias against South Africa, based probably in no small part in their "old South Africa" military brainwashing.


I said an AK47 was only pointed at me you need to be more careful in quoting information.
You also make "probable" generalisations about me which are incorrect.
You are very fortunate to know no one affected by "violent" crime... it makes me wonder if you even live in Johannesburg.


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## vegasboy

I quote from an article that was published in the Natal Witness in December 2001 - nine years later, the situation is even worse: 

"Philip du Toit of the Agricultural Employers Association cites the trashing of several once outstanding agricultural projects as a result of ANC land reform policy. Zebediela Citrus Estate, once the largest of its kind in the world with an annual harvest worth R30 million, is in ruins today losing more than R35 million per annum. Taken over by the Agricultural and Rural Development Corporation, its managers were replaced by people who had no farming experience. Half the citrus trees have died and hundreds of employees have been retrenched. 
The Lisbon Citrus and Mango Estate, once our largest exporter of mangoes, has met a similar fate. So has the Saringwa Estate in the Lowland which is now R17 million in debt. The Gillemsberg Citrus and Cattle Boerdery, once debt free and producing R14 million per year, has been totally plundered. This once magnificent 25 000 hectare gem is now a huge squatter camp. 
One of the largest pig farms in the country was also handed over in a ceremony attended by Nelson Mandela himself who claimed that the farm would serve "as a breadbasket of the community". Today all the pigs are gone and squatters are living in their pens. 
Around the country examples abound of the systematic destruction of the last remaining food exporting infrastructure in Africa. As in Zimbabwe, the claim of "racial imbalance" in land ownership is a red herring. With the government owning around 25% of South Africa's land, there is ample land available for those who want to work it. But that is not being distributed. 

Instead organized agriculture is being strangled to death by those who seek only to occupy farms and not to continue their productivity." The prosecution rests.


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## Spoony

*UK visitors flock to South Africa*

If these UK visitors are flocking to our country, and even buying the homes some of the expats have left behind, i suggest we should all go back and stop living this dreadful life abroad


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## vegasboy

*On the lighter side...*

This article in the Cape Times is somewhat outdated, but if you live in Cape Town and know the posh area Camps Bay, you just HAVE to have a chuckle at this:

"BYLINE: CARYN DOLLEY 

A CAMPS Bay security company says service at the police station in the elite suburb has deteriorated badly and that it refuses to continue working with the officers until the service improves. 

Bay Response, a private security company, has assisted the Camps Bay police station for 13 years. It provides backup to crime scenes and transports police staff. 

"We didn't want to take them (the police) on because we need to work together, but now we're dissatisfied with their service delivery. It's in complete collapse. 

"The station commander doesn't even have a driver's licence so has to be driven to crime scenes," Bay Response … :car:


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## vegasboy

An elderly couple who I am well acquainted with was attacked on the R300 between Strand and Durbanville in Cape Town this weekend. The newspaper carried a front page article on this.

Their car broke down and they were waiting for assistance. The lady (87) was hit on the head with a brick and robbed of jewellery worth thousands and cash. So sad, so sad. I just know so many people who have been victims of crime, some close to me. 

*HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU KNOW PERSONALLY WHO HAVE BEEN A VICTIM OF CRIME THE LAST TWO YEARS?*


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## daj

every country has its pro's and cons! south africa never the less is still the best country in the world!!! and i would advise moving here regardless!


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## vegasboy

daj said:


> every country has its pro's and cons! south africa never the less is still the best country in the world!!! and i would advise moving here regardless!


 I heard Pres. Hamid Karzai from Afghanistan say the same about his country on CNN this morning. No one denies that South Africa is a great place. Why don't you read what this thread is about and post your comment on the appropriate thread "pro's moving to or living in South Africa"?:focus:


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## vegasboy

*Mo Ibrahim Foundation's Latest Index on the state of Governance in Africa 2010*

*Security of citizens deteriorated badly in 32 countries in Africa - Die Burger (Andre le Roux) 2010-10-04 23:55 

Excerpt from article with reference to the prestigious Mo Ibrahim Foundation's Latest Index on the state of Governance in Africa 2010 :*

1. South Africans are in almost as much personal risk of violence than citizens of countries like Somalia , Zimbabwe and Nigeria. South Africa is not alone. In 35 of the 53 African countries, civil security between 2008 and 2009 have deteriorated.

2. The overall human rights situation in 30 African countries in recent years deteriorated , including media freedom.

3. South Africa is among the 10 African countries where personal safety of its people are the least protected or guaranteed. The biggest threats in those countries include violent crime , violence , human trafficking , political persecution , torture and terror.

4. South Africa's weakest point ( 44uit 100 to the African average of 25 out of 100) for maintaining its infrastructure. 

5. The state of public integrity in Africa have an average of 49 out of 100, despite elections and economic growth. This indicates a flat and slightly declining trend and weakening governments over the past six years.

Veiligheid van landsburgers versleg erg in 32 lande in Afrika: Die Burger: Wêreld: Nuus


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## Therooster

> 1. South Africans are in almost as much personal risk of violence than citizens of countries like Somalia , Zimbabwe and Nigeria. South Africa is not alone. In 35 of the 53 African countries, civil security between 2008 and 2009 have deteriorated.



I'd love to know what this index is based on. Certainly it's not based on facts because 90% of African countries don't or can't release crime statistics as illustrated by this map.

File:Homicide-world.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





> 2. The overall human rights situation in 30 African countries in recent years deteriorated , including media freedom.


Well certainly it's media freedom has never been better in South Africa than it is today. Isn't this the South African forum ? Why bring Africa into it ?



> 3. South Africa is among the 10 African countries where personal safety of its people are the least protected or guaranteed. The biggest threats in those countries include violent crime , violence , human trafficking , political persecution , torture and terror.


Again based on what data ? Most African countries don't even have a functioning government or even have the ability to keep track of any data regarding their populace. So forget about actuaries and statiscians. How are they arriving at these figues ? It's laughable to be honest. 



> 4. South Africa's weakest point ( 44uit 100 to the African average of 25 out of 100) for maintaining its infrastructure.


You have any tangible examples ? Every day I must drive through road works for the past 5 years. For every hillbrow I'll show you 10000 new developments. And as a matter of fact even hillbrow is being rejuvinated. 



> 5. The state of public integrity in Africa have an average of 49 out of 100, despite elections and economic growth. This indicates a flat and slightly declining trend and weakening governments over the past six years.


Yeah like the government of Europe, Asia and the U.s.a are so honest. lol.


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## Halo

More realities "The Rooster" denies.

SA is a timebomb - Why would you want to sit on it not knowing what time it's going to go Boom?

*Please watch*
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Happy thoughts and good feelings gets you ____ in South Africa.


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## Therooster

Halo said:


> More realities "The Rooster" denies.
> 
> SA is a timebomb - Why would you want to sit on it not knowing what time it's going to go Boom?


Again, based on what ? Facts please, not paranoid, subjective, emotive sentiments built from prejudice.


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## Johanna

Therooster said:


> Again, based on what ? Facts please, not paranoid, subjective, emotive sentiments built from prejudice.


Therooster, please stop postings as if others are prejudiced. CNN's video was factual. 

I live in SA too and know what happens here. I dearly love my country, but we cannot blind ourselves to the truth and facts.


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## Therooster

Johanna said:


> Therooster, please stop postings as if others are prejudiced. CNN's video was factual.
> 
> I live in SA too and know what happens here. I dearly love my country, but we cannot blind ourselves to the truth and facts.


There's a difference between blinding yourself to reality and between someone throwing bullsheet into your eyes. I didn't see the video actually, I was just wondering on what he bases such a radical "matter of act" statement like "South Africa is a time bomb that's going to go boom" ?

I never deny S.A has problems. I just call for rational, calm debate without the type of hyperbolic hype you read on these forums sometimes. There is constructuve criticism and then there's a smear campaign. You can tell the difference can't you ?


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## Johanna

Therooster said:


> There's a difference between blinding yourself to reality and between someone throwing bullsheet into your eyes. I didn't see the video actually, I was just wondering on what he bases such a radical "matter of act" statement like "South Africa is a time bomb that's going to go boom" ?
> 
> I never deny S.A has problems. I just call for rational, calm debate without the type of hyperbolic hype you read on these forums sometimes. There is constructuve criticism and then there's a smear campaign. You can tell the difference can't you ?


You call for calm debate and keep on telling others they are prejudiced? Is that a calm debate?


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## Therooster

Johanna said:


> You call for calm debate and keep on telling others they are prejudiced? Is that a calm debate?


He is not pre judging South Africa in his time bomb statements ? Because that's what prejudice means.

Watching the video now..comment to come.

Edit : video still won't play.


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## Johanna

Therooster said:


> He is not pre judging South Africa in his time bomb statements ? Because that's what prejudice means.
> 
> Watching the video now..comment to come.


Wow, teaching me meanings of words now ... thanks. You and I both know what you imply when you keep on referring to "prejudice" as it often has either racial or religious undertones. Go figure.


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## Therooster

Johanna said:


> Wow, teaching me meanings of words now ... thanks. You and I both know what you imply when you keep on referring to "prejudice" as it often has either racial or religious undertones. Go figure.


No, I don't know that. I think he's obviously prejudiced towards the county. He doesn't live live and he always predicts the worst. Without many exceptions he projects and predicts negative traits onto South Africa. Whatever his prejudice is based on it's not for me to say. Whether it's some personal trauma or some race hang ups etc I don't presume to know. But certainly he has without much exception generally negative things to say about South Africa's future. Unless he's nostrodamus then by definition he's prejudiced towards the country. 

If I say it's race that inspires this prejudice, just because my experience with so many white South Africans prejudices is that it's almost always about race, then I'm being prejudiced myself, no ?


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## Therooster

Ah, the video is about unemployment. 

Well I personally think this is also way over hyped by the media. 20 years ago over 50% of South Africans were subsistance farmers living in the homelands. If we counted unemployment then by the standars we do today it would be like 70%. Now many have moved to the city so they're officially unemployed making up the 25% rate. 

Reality is rather that millions more black South Africans are employed today compared to the past and provide their families and extended families with income. As many as 6 million black people now earn as much as white people on average. That's not to say there's no problem. But to take something perfectly natural and hstorically easily explainable and pretend is some rising epidemic of timebomb proportions is exactly what I'm grinching about. The solutions themselves are complex and won't be fixed over night. 

It's too easy to twist something perfectly normal and actually relatively positive into something negative if you want to make a afro pessimistic story which people so love to hear in this country. Which sadly is far too often what the media does. 

Think that through for a few minutes.


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## Johanna

What does unemployment lead to?
More often than not, hunger. What do hungry people do to get food?
More often than not, they steal --- have done so for centuries in all the countries of the world.
Think that through.

I have had enough of you.


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## luna the boxer

Johanna said:


> What does unemployment lead to?
> More often than not, hunger. What do hungry people do to get food?
> More often than not, they steal --- have done so for centuries in all the countries of the world.
> Think that through.
> 
> I have had enough of you.


lmfao.....the guy is giving reasonable debate on an internet forum and all you can do is get on your high horse and claim he is trying to teach you the meaning of words/that he is not giving calm(wtf) debate.....please re-read as i don't think he has done either. SNIP


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## Johanna

luna the boxer said:


> lmfao.....the guy is giving reasonable debate on an internet forum and all you can do is get on your high horse and claim he is trying to teach you the meaning of words/that he is not giving calm(wtf) debate.....please re-read as i don't think he has done either. SNIP


luna, the guy has been annoying other people before he started using bad language towards me. 
His debate was not reasonable, otherwise there would not have been all the negative posts and complaints about the postings.

So, before we have to ban you for your language, please familiarize yourself with all the postings before telling me what to do.

I thank you in advance.


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## zambezi.king

luna,

If you want to get sense of where Rooster is coming from all you have to do is read his rantings on his blog... ask him, he will give you the link with pride. In actual fact the facts he puts forward on that particular offensive soapbox don't add up or portray the "unbias" Rooster of this forum.

Mods: if this breeches the TOS please clean/delete.


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## Johanna

zambezi.king said:


> luna,
> 
> If you want to get sense of where Rooster is coming from all you have to do is read his rantings on his blog... ask him, he will give you the link with pride. In actual fact the facts he puts forward on that particular offensive soapbox don't add up or portray the "unbias" Rooster of this forum.
> 
> Mods: if this breeches the TOS please clean/delete.


You may notice that he has been banned ( and not even by me, but just before I managed to do so! )
Hopefully this forum can now be used for the purpose it was set up for and not for personal vendettas and nonsense!

People who ask for advice here are usually serious about their requests, that is why I registered here, but the in-fighting on the SA forum has become totally ridiculous, not sure whether it is a Saffer-thing!!!!


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## cmdsg

unemployment is not only a problem in south africa in spain is 21% in Portugal 12 
% Both countries belong to the European Union


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## vegasboy

*There are a lot of positive things to say about this great country. Please post those on the thread "Pros of moving to or living in South Africa."*

The links we post here will obviously sound negative, but the purpose of this thread is to post information which posters believe / perceive as cons, backed up by links and references. These opinions should be considered by folk using this forum doing research so they can make their own informed decisions.:focus:

Thanks to our moderators for keeping things on track.


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## Daxk

Rooster posts a lot of very valid points.
backed up by statistics.
and statistics can be counterpointed with other statistics.
all of which can inform
where rooster falls down is Noise, he is unable to argue without personal insults.
he is aggressively defensive and then derogatory.
and the obvious retaliation ensues.
which is why it gets ugly.
But I'm sure from previous experience that rooster has a backup plan and will be posting shortly. just under a new nickname.
which is fine, I enjoy a discussion without rancor.


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## jojo

Daxk said:


> Rooster posts a lot of very valid points.
> backed up by statistics.
> and statistics can be counterpointed with other statistics.
> all of which can inform
> where rooster falls down is Noise, he is unable to argue without personal insults.
> he is aggressively defensive and then derogatory.
> and the obvious retaliation ensues.
> which is why it gets ugly.
> But I'm sure from previous experience that rooster has a backup plan and will be posting shortly. just under a new nickname.
> which is fine, I enjoy a discussion without rancor.


I know I dont understand much about SA, but I do understand when things get nasty and as a mod thats what I try to stop. IMO personal insults on a forum are almost a verbal form of physical violence, so the perpetrator has resorted to a form of violence and his point and opinion is no longer valid or of interest

Jo xxx


----------



## Halo

cmdsg said:


> unemployment is not only a problem in south africa in spain is 21% in Portugal 12
> % Both countries belong to the European Union


Another CON - No real social welfare in South Africa and when you are unemployed you basically get nothing including poor healthcare and no chance (as with the Spanish) to cross the border to get work if you need to.

People need to think more. 

As for Rooster - "She" has an agenda and is not into facts and truth..... And loves playing the race card........ I didn't mind, shows up people for what they are.


----------



## xabiaxica

Halo said:


> Another CON - No real social welfare in South Africa and when you are unemployed you basically get nothing including poor healthcare and no chance (as with the Spanish) to cross the border to get work if you need to.
> 
> People need to think more.
> 
> As for Rooster - "She" has an agenda and is not into facts and truth..... And loves playing the race card........ I didn't mind, shows up people for what they are.


sounds a bit like Spain


----------



## Halo

xabiachica said:


> sounds a bit like Spain


LOL, true but you can always cross the border and try somewhere else..... in relative peace and safety.


----------



## crock

*Government leadership*

A major con for me is the political side of South Africa. The ANC government appears to be paralysed by endemic corruption and general incompetence because of cadre (or jobs for pals) deployment policy.

The more the government fails in service delivery, the more radical the political statements become. The problems of crime, unemployment, failed education and healthcare or sympotematic of government that keeps looking for answers in the wrong areas and allows corruption to occur with little consequence.

SA is a beautiful country and has massive potential, but until the guys at the top get their act together - the landscape will always be bleak. But I continue to read the news everyday and chat to friends to try and get a balanced perspective.


----------



## guojian53

Halo said:


> The cost of living is high when compared to Europe/USA/Australia - Comparing apples with apples.


I did note from a government website that income taxes I would have to pay in RSA are higher than I would have to pay in the USA. Real estate prices per square meter are lower in RSA than in the USA and property taxes in RSA are lower than in the USA. Utility rates are a lot higher in the USA. Healthcare is cheaper in RSA.

And since my pension is in USD, the unfavorable exchange rate is making it tough to reconcile moving to the RSA at this time for me.


----------



## Halo

Can never understand why anyone in the USA would move to SA.... it just not make sense.


----------



## zambezi.king

guojian53 said:


> I did note from a government website that income taxes I would have to pay in RSA are higher than I would have to pay in the USA. Real estate prices per square meter are lower in RSA than in the USA and property taxes in RSA are lower than in the USA. Utility rates are a lot higher in the USA. Healthcare is cheaper in RSA.
> 
> And since my pension is in USD, the unfavorable exchange rate is making it tough to reconcile moving to the RSA at this time for me.


The difference is your taxes are actually used to provide services such as decent hospitals, roads, social security, policing that is not largely corrupt or bankrupt as well as schools etc. 

I for one would never ever want to get old in SA without having the means to provide PRIVATE medical and social care for myself.


----------



## guojian53

Halo said:


> Can never understand why anyone in the USA would move to SA.... it just not make sense.


You may not understand it, but then you do not walk in my shoes. I may not understand why you fluttered from the UK to RSA to Aus. Folks do what they do.


----------



## guojian53

zambezi.king said:


> The difference is your taxes are actually used to provide services such as decent hospitals, roads, social security, policing that is not largely corrupt or bankrupt as well as schools etc.
> 
> I for one would never ever want to get old in SA without having the means to provide PRIVATE medical and social care for myself.


Up until Obamacare, I felt that there was no safety net in the USA for the aging population. 

And our federal tax money has paid huge amounts of corporate welfare for companies to move jobs out of the country. Thus there is abuse of tax money here too.

I'll probably stay in the US. I can honestly say that I would most likely NEVER move to Australia.


----------



## Halo

guojian53 said:


> You may not understand it, but then you do not walk in my shoes. I may not understand why you fluttered from the UK to RSA to Aus. Folks do what they do.


There is always a reason....... but many more to move away from SA


----------



## guojian53

Halo said:


> There is always a reason....... but many more to move away from SA


For you that's true. 

For me, I don't have kids. It's not in my radar of consideration. In short I don't care about childen's welfare in RSA, as I never had any in the first place, and as a retiree, I don't intend to have any.

And I am an American, therefore very self-reliant. If I were to move to RSA (which at the present time seems unlikely) I would do my own cleaning, cooking (I cook better than most chefs), and I like to do my own gardening. I have the working class American disdain for those who have domestics, as elitism. In my mind it's a needless waste of cash, if I am capable and willing to do the work.

But I am an American who doesn't have a bundle of cash. I don't foresee having a bundle of cash. I have been seriously considering third world countries for relocation in my retirement, as the dollar goes farther there. I hope that you now understand, and that I have been clear.


----------



## Daxk

Depends on what you are after,
If you are healthy and after the African big game/Photographic experience, look at Zanzibar or even Malawi or Kenya.
From a"bush" point of view, the Rift valley(especially the annual migration viewed from a balloon at dawn) if fishing, a Dhow is cheap, and flyfishing rfrom the point of is immense.

Your problem is there is no golden hour.
you get ill or fall over, there is no real outcome other than the Arab "In'shallah" (if it is Gods will)
Sa without maids or gardeners,in the small villages out of the rush such as Lady Gray or perhaps even Ceres, not te touristy spots, you can get a cottage on a farm cheaply, buy a cheap pickup, live a good life,again, if you fall over, without some serious money, its going to be Ins'shallah! in a SA Govt Hospital.
but if you survive, it will make for some good stories, if you really wanted to, you could probably teach English or lifeskills for free in some small rural school,
Those of us who have children and left for that reason sometimes forget that if we had no children, we would still be there.
I have travelled most of sub-saharan Africa, its something that has left some very good memories.


----------



## guojian53

Daxk said:


> Depends on what you are after,
> If you are healthy and after the African big game/Photographic experience, look at Zanzibar or even Malawi or Kenya.
> From a"bush" point of view, the Rift valley(especially the annual migration viewed from a balloon at dawn) if fishing, a Dhow is cheap, and flyfishing rfrom the point of is immense.
> 
> Your problem is there is no golden hour.
> you get ill or fall over, there is no real outcome other than the Arab "In'shallah" (if it is Gods will)
> Sa without maids or gardeners,in the small villages out of the rush such as Lady Gray or perhaps even Ceres, not te touristy spots, you can get a cottage on a farm cheaply, buy a cheap pickup, live a good life,again, if you fall over, without some serious money, its going to be Ins'shallah! in a SA Govt Hospital.
> but if you survive, it will make for some good stories, if you really wanted to, you could probably teach English or lifeskills for free in some small rural school,
> Those of us who have children and left for that reason sometimes forget that if we had no children, we would still be there.
> I have travelled most of sub-saharan Africa, its something that has left some very good memories.


My problem is that the dollar has fallen precipitously. If the dollar comes up to a civilized level again, I can unload my house in Seattle, and buy a cottage or a condo in Cape Town with cash with some left over. I have enough income to purchase medical insurance, so long as the new govt healthcare plan in RSA does not make that tank. In short, there are a lot of contingencies. 

Until then. . .

Thank you for understanding.


----------



## guojian53

Here's another con - The murder rate in 2009 in the Western Cape was: 44,6:100 000
But then I worked in Detroit for a year, and their recent murder figure was 40,6: 100 000


----------



## guojian53

Another con issue - Western Cape Murder Rate in 2009 - 44,6:100 000

But then I worked in Detroit for a year - 2007 - 47,3:100 000, but that improved in 2008 to 44,6:100 000


----------



## Daxk

guojian53 said:


> Another con issue - Western Cape Murder Rate in 2009 - 44,6:100 000
> 
> But then I worked in Detroit for a year - 2007 - 47,3:100 000, but that improved in 2008 to 44,6:100 000


So why do you want to go and live in Detroit?


----------



## guojian53

Daxk said:


> So why do you want to go and live in Detroit?


I didn't live in Detroit. I commuted in from the middle of Michigan. At the time, it was the only job that I could find in Michigan. 

My point is that America is not always as nice a folks would like to portray it, and South Africa is not necessarily as bad relative to the US.


----------



## Daxk

guojian53 said:


> You may not understand it, but then you do not walk in my shoes. I may not understand why you fluttered from the UK to RSA to Aus. Folks do what they do.


There are many places in America I too would not choose to live in, however, as you said, you have not walked in "our" shoes.
without starting the whole thing all over, there are many places that are unsafe all over the World.
There are many Countries that have greater crime rates than SA.
But we are not talking about moving to those Countries, we are talking about moving to SA (or having left there).
are we not?

and a very large percentage of those who left SA have left because of Crime.
not racism, which is the next thing that usually gets thrown up.
not muggings or handbag snatchings or car theft or Household Burglary when you are not at home.
Those, in a SA context are seen as Petty" theft.

Personal ,Gun in your face, sometimes in your home, someone else has total control over what happens next, crime 
and not everyone experiences it.
agreed.
but its an experience some of us do not care to repeat or take the cahnce on.
plain ,simple fact.
and we choose to move to places that their are less chance of that happening too.
which is usually NOT places like Detroit, or Port Lauderdale, or New Yorks Central Park, 

and if you choose to move there ,and dont have children to worry about, you are welcome.


----------



## Rosh-M

Wow, now these are some stats! But would you really think having a high crime rate would be that big a deal? I mean isn't that the case in every country since recession has hit.. People harming other people one way or another? Would there be a con in not moving to SA that would not relate to the Crime Rate?

Maybe along the lines of economy? Growth? Infrastructure? Quality of Life? People? Freedom?


----------



## guojian53

Rosh-M said:


> Wow, now these are some stats! But would you really think having a high crime rate would be that big a deal? I mean isn't that the case in every country since recession has hit.. People harming other people one way or another? Would there be a con in not moving to SA that would not relate to the Crime Rate?
> 
> Maybe along the lines of economy? Growth? Infrastructure? Quality of Life? People? Freedom?


I am an American who has seen the underbelly of life in this country. I do not have a high enough income to insulate myself from that underbelly. I have reconciled myself that the underbelly does exist. I take appropriate precautions to prevent the bad stuff from happening to me. But being 125 kg and 188 cm tall of mostly muscle does help in protecting myself, as size is one helluva deterrent to being victimized in crime.


----------



## guojian53

Daxk said:


> There are many places in America I too would not choose to live in, however, as you said, you have not walked in "our" shoes.
> without starting the whole thing all over, there are many places that are unsafe all over the World.
> There are many Countries that have greater crime rates than SA.
> But we are not talking about moving to those Countries, we are talking about moving to SA (or having left there).
> are we not?
> 
> and a very large percentage of those who left SA have left because of Crime.
> not racism, which is the next thing that usually gets thrown up.
> not muggings or handbag snatchings or car theft or Household Burglary when you are not at home.
> Those, in a SA context are seen as Petty" theft.
> 
> Personal ,Gun in your face, sometimes in your home, someone else has total control over what happens next, crime
> and not everyone experiences it.
> agreed.
> but its an experience some of us do not care to repeat or take the cahnce on.
> plain ,simple fact.
> and we choose to move to places that their are less chance of that happening too.
> which is usually NOT places like Detroit, or Port Lauderdale, or New Yorks Central Park,
> 
> and if you choose to move there ,and dont have children to worry about, you are welcome.


Which is why I said, "Folks will do what they do." I was implying that individuals make choices based upon their own interpretations of the data, given their emotional motivations. You made your own individual choices based upon your interpretation of the data, in consideration of your own emotional motivations, and your particular needs.

I respect that you have chosen to live elsewhere than South Africa. For you that choice probably was the right one, based upon your own needs.

Daxk, you and Halo have implied repeatedly that anyone who considers moving to South Africa is goofus. But I would say that you may not have been respectful of others' choices and needs, nor their particular circumstances.

My circumstances are not the same as yours. My needs are not the same as yours. Please respect my right to make my own choice as you have.


----------



## Daxk

guojian53 said:


> Daxk, you and Halo have implied repeatedly that anyone who considers moving to South Africa is goofus. But I would say that you may not have been respectful of others' choices and needs, nor their particular circumstances.
> 
> My circumstances are not the same as yours. My needs are not the same as yours. Please respect my right to make my own choice as you have.


Kindly point out where I have said that you are "goofus" aka insane to move to SA.


----------



## guojian53

Perhaps not overtly, but Halo implies it: "Can never understand why anyone in the USA would move to SA.... it just not make sense."

I don't want to get into a pecker contest here. I'll drop the issue. I hope you'll do likewise.


----------



## Halo

And I stand by that statement.... There may be reasons to go but when there are so many better and safer places to live I just can't understand why someone would put themselves in a position of weakness.

South Africa is a volatile place - Anything can happen at anytime - Why take the risk?


----------



## guojian53

Halo said:


> And I stand by that statement.... There may be reasons to go but when there are so many better and safer places to live I just can't understand why someone would put themselves in a position of weakness.
> 
> South Africa is a volatile place - Anything can happen at anytime - Why take the risk?


Americans are risk takers, read cowboy. I just want to.


----------



## Halo

guojian53 said:


> Americans are risk takers, read cowboy. I just want to.


Have fun......


----------



## guojian53

Halo said:


> Have fun......


Thank you. I have always enjoyed a challenge.


----------



## BeautifulMystique

The beautiful scenery and people!

Love the location I'm in and still having fun. It's a safe place (my location), for sure!


----------



## vegasboy

Some food for thought:


----------



## vegasboy

*South Africa as seen by Carte Blanche, a very reputable TV actuality program*

CONS of moving to or living in South Africa: Carte Blanche has developed a high degree of credibility in South African television journalism and has been awarded over 100 local and international awards:


----------



## jojo

I think thats enough now vegasboy!!! I dont know if any one can be bothered to watch these things, but this isnt you tube!

Jo


----------



## Johanna

jojo said:


> I think thats enough now vegasboy!!! I dont know if any one can be bothered to watch these things, but this isnt you tube!
> 
> Jo


Thanks Jo
I also feel if people want to see videos they can google youtube

The huge scare, especially created amongst the Brits before the FIFA world cup was so unnecessary as nothing predicted by some of the press, happened!
We have to realise that SA is a developing country, there is a lot of corruption ( where in the world does this not exist?), the crime rate is far too high, but if you hate the country as much as those who left, please do not scare away others who want to give it a go!

One can always return to your country of origin if you feel like it!


----------



## vegasboy

jojo said:


> I think thats enough now vegasboy!!! I dont know if any one can be bothered to watch these things, but this isnt you tube!
> 
> Jo


Jojo, with all due respect: This specific thread is about CONS... I understand that this is not Youtube, but I felt strong posting these here, reason being that the second clip was produced by one of the most reputable journalism TV actuality programs in South Africa. It may look somewhat "in your face" due to the fact that it shows the Youtube screen and not the link only.

I have tremendous respect for you as a moderator, but if this forum is going to be "policed" to the point where media freedom is compromised, I will gladly stop posting here. Your statement "I dont know if any one can be bothered to watch these things" is in my humble opinion not for you (as a moderator) to decide, but rather those who do research on South Africa.

As you are well aware, I ALWAYS try to post balanced views, even pros on the other thread.


----------



## jojo

vegasboy said:


> Jojo, with all due respect: This specific thread is about CONS... I understand that this is not Youtube, but I felt strong posting these here, reason being that the second clip was produced by one of the most reputable journalism TV actuality programs in South Africa. It may look somewhat "in your face" due to the fact that it shows the Youtube screen and not the link only.
> 
> I have tremendous respect for you as a moderator, but if this forum is going to be "policed" to the point where media freedom is compromised, I will gladly stop posting here. Your statement "I dont know if any one can be bothered to watch these things" is in my humble opinion not for you (as a moderator) to decide, but rather those who do research on South Africa.
> 
> As you are well aware, I ALWAYS try to post balanced views, even pros on the other thread.


Ok, chill, I'm sorry I didnt mean to offend!!!!! I just dont want too many you tube vids on here thats all - whatever they are about!! Your spoken words are infinitely more valuable, informative and evoke more interesting responses and debate!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Thanks Jo
> I also feel if people want to see videos they can google youtube
> 
> The huge scare, especially created amongst the Brits before the FIFA world cup was so unnecessary as nothing predicted by some of the press, happened!
> We have to realise that SA is a developing country, there is a lot of corruption ( where in the world does this not exist?), the crime rate is far too high, but if you hate the country as much as those who left, please do not scare away others who want to give it a go!
> 
> One can always return to your country of origin if you feel like it!


Johanna, I'd like to take issue with you if I may.
Having been in SA during and post the WC ,I have never seen so much Police Presence in the 54 years I lived in SA.

That only happened BECAUSE of the International and Web exposure.

The SAPS have proved thay CAN prevent crime, I trust that the figures for August/Sept/Oct/Nov through to next year March will reflect that.
If not, I will revisit it. but loking at the Media, things are back to "normal"

As a moderator you have to be unbiased.
However you have just categorized anyone who criticises SA as "if you hate the country as much as those who left,"
That shows bias.

Jojo, your comments regarding the videos, they come from a respected Actuality programme.
Not a right wing site with an Agenda.
people who visit here for info have a choice, they do not HAVE to click on it.


----------



## vegasboy

jojo said:


> Ok, chill, I'm sorry I didnt mean to offend!!!!! I just dont want too many you tube vids on here thats all - whatever they are about!! Your spoken words are infinitely more valuable, informative and evoke more interesting responses and debate!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


 Jojo, you are a GREAT person. My apology if I came over too strong with my last post. xxx


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Johanna, I'd like to take issue with you if I may.
> Having been in SA during and post the WC ,I have never seen so much Police Presence in the 54 years I lived in SA.
> 
> That only happened BECAUSE of the International and Web exposure.
> 
> The SAPS have proved thay CAN prevent crime, I trust that the figures for August/Sept/Oct/Nov through to next year March will reflect that.
> If not, I will revisit it. but loking at the Media, things are back to "normal"
> 
> As a moderator you have to be unbiased.
> However you have just categorized anyone who criticises SA as "if you hate the country as much as those who left,"
> That shows bias.
> 
> Jojo, your comments regarding the videos, they come from a respected Actuality programme.
> Not a right wing site with an Agenda.
> people who visit here for info have a choice, they do not HAVE to click on it.


Sorry you see my posts as biased Daxk, I returned to SA after living in the UK for quite some time and have seen a much more visible police presence during the apartheid years than during the FIFA WC!


----------



## jojo

Daxk said:


> Jojo, your comments regarding the videos, they come from a respected Actuality programme.
> Not a right wing site with an Agenda.
> people who visit here for info have a choice, they do not HAVE to click on it.


Flippin' eck?!!!! I simply meant that the forum doesnt need to have loads of "you tube" posts! The content wasnt the issue, just the amount! Thats all! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Johanna

Let us not start a new "us and them" situation, please!!

I honesty think we have enough "cons" posted on this thread, so as Daxk has said, people who want to read the negatives, have IMHO enough cons to read before making a decision about South Africa!


----------



## vegasboy

Daxk said:


> Johanna, I'd like to take issue with you if I may.
> Having been in SA during and post the WC ,I have never seen so much Police Presence in the 54 years I lived in SA.
> 
> That only happened BECAUSE of the International and Web exposure.
> 
> The SAPS have proved thay CAN prevent crime, I trust that the figures for August/Sept/Oct/Nov through to next year March will reflect that.
> If not, I will revisit it. but loking at the Media, things are back to "normal"
> 
> As a moderator you have to be unbiased.
> However you have just categorized anyone who criticises SA as "if you hate the country as much as those who left,"
> That shows bias.
> 
> Jojo, your comments regarding the videos, they come from a respected Actuality programme.
> Not a right wing site with an Agenda.
> people who visit here for info have a choice, they do not HAVE to click on it.


 I agree, Daxk. A moderator should not make their opinion known, never. They should keep an emotional distance and not indulge in spirited discussions between posters, other than making sure that the written forum rules and guidelines are not contravened.

I also do not think it is necessary for a second moderator to confirm the first's admonishment in cases where a moderator needs to act. Love you all xxx


----------



## Halo

Developing country - Thats the funniest thing I've heard all year...


----------



## Johanna

South Africa is a developing country, but it ranks as a NIC (Newly Industrialised Country) which places it with countries such as India, China, Turkey, Malaysia, Mexico and Brazil. It is also considered an emerging market and as such is developing rapidly. Although it is currently suffering from the global credit crunch, it and Brazil are the two countries in the world least affected by the recession and some analysts have predicted that it will have become a developed country by the second half of the twenty-first century.

I know this should not be posted under "cons"... just my reply to Halo!

And I beg you guys, let us not get into a fight!!!!


----------



## Johanna

vegasboy said:


> I agree, Daxk. A moderator should not make their opinion known, never. They should keep an emotional distance and not indulge in spirited discussions between posters, other than making sure that the written forum rules and guidelines are not contravened.
> 
> I also do not think it is necessary for a second moderator to confirm the first's admonishment in cases where a moderator needs to act. Love you all xxx


I have undeleted it for you vegasboy, not because of threats, but if it rocks your boat, so be it!


----------



## Daxk

I didn't say your posts were biased, I said your statement was.

I too lived through Police presence in the Apartheid years, I was comparing July/August this year to the lack of Policing in 2003/2004.
When I lived there.

I would think that discussing the SAPS activities during the Apartheid years would be off topic on this thread.
happy to discuss them on a separate thread f you wish?


----------



## Halo

Newly Industrialised Country - Thats even funnier......
I really think some people need to look at the history of SA. The population explosion due to modern medicine, the amazing infrastructure surpassing that of many first world countries.... etc etc

If anything SA is a de-developing country. which will turn into a developing country........someday.


----------



## vegasboy

Johanna said:


> I have undeleted it for you vegasboy, not because of threats, but if it rocks your boat, so be it!


Thanks


----------



## guojian53

Johanna said:


> Thanks Jo
> I also feel if people want to see videos they can google youtube
> 
> The huge scare, especially created amongst the Brits before the FIFA world cup was so unnecessary as nothing predicted by some of the press, happened!
> We have to realise that SA is a developing country, there is a lot of corruption ( where in the world does this not exist?), the crime rate is far too high, but if you hate the country as much as those who left, please do not scare away others who want to give it a go!
> 
> One can always return to your country of origin if you feel like it!


Johanna,

I agree that there can be good in any place. Most any country has some bad stuff too.

Myself, I was driving down through downtown Las Vegas, and that night there were four different police cruisers, each responding to a different crime over a 1 km distance. And that's my own country.

The only prudent advice is be vigilant and prepared for when crisis arises, regardless of where one is.

Richard


----------



## vegasboy

guojian53 said:


> Johanna,
> 
> I agree that there can be good in any place. Most any country has some bad stuff too.
> 
> Myself, I was driving down through downtown Las Vegas, and that night there were four different police cruisers, each responding to a different crime over a 1 km distance. And that's my own country.
> 
> The only prudent advice is be vigilant and prepared for when crisis arises, regardless of where one is.
> 
> Richard


 Richard, I hear what you say. LV is riddled with crime, I get the crime reports daily from a website showing the type of crime reported and in which area as I am in the process of buying a property there. However the TYPE of crime (murdering you for a cell phone etc) is just so different to here, as has been explained so many times on this forum.


----------



## vegasboy

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=12bfc239f70b5ba8&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D177bff39b1%26view%3Datt%26th%3D12bfc239f70b5ba8%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQpAAwO0uxeeAb9WKB5Pm8yaQz9bQ&pli=1


----------



## Halo

vegasboy said:


> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=12bfc239f70b5ba8&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D177bff39b1%26view%3Datt%26th%3D12bfc239f70b5ba8%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQpAAwO0uxeeAb9WKB5Pm8yaQz9bQ&pli=1


Link fails.....


----------



## vegasboy

*Any ideas to save this ship from sinking?*



Halo said:


> Link fails.....


 Halo, I will post a condensed summary of that link here later.

I was wondering how we will finance the ambitious new "Economic Growth Plan" of Pravin Gordhan and the ANC, which basically includes job creation and the implementation of the new NHI (National Health Insurance), funded from taxes.

In South Africa, the top 20% income group deemed "rich" earn from R7750-00 ($1107) per month. The top 10% group, seen as super rich, start at the R16250-00 ($2321) per month threshold. 

90% of all personal income tax is allocated to some form of social grant, making South Africa the biggest welfare state in the world. - Mike Schussler, Rapport 31 October 2010


----------



## nreynolds2010

vegasboy said:


> The purpose of this thread is to focus soley on reasons to oppose and discourage moving to South Africa, providing information and facts of South Africa, backed up with statistics and references where necessary.
> 
> Another similar thread, *Pros of moving to or living in South Africa* can be found on this forum to provide useful, valuable, honest and relevant information in order to establish a way to weigh the issues thoughtfully and reach an informed decision.
> 
> Please post positives/pros on the *Pros of moving to or living in South Africa* thread


The difficulty of foreigners to obtain employment is horrible, been here 1 year now and nothing! The only way a foreigner gets employed is if he is a brain surgeon or a nucleaur scientist.
I want to go back home so badly, but I cant, Im married to a s african citizen and I have left evrything behind to come to this god forsaken place, sold my car, spent all my savings to come here and rite now Im battling. Im stuck here, and to top off evrthing my wife is acting up!! I hate this country, I have a bachelors degree in computer science, turned down a six figure salary job beacause I was making plans to come here, Now how the hell am I supposed to live in this country, the place is the worst. 
This is the biggest mistake I have ever made in my life and I have to live with it in a foreign county!!!
its a beautiful country but whats the *%@ use i cant get a friking job.

When I do apply for a job, employers tell me I need a S African ID, and I dont get a f---ing Id until iam 6 years living here, WTF? Iam here 1 year now and I hate it, evry god forsaken second. If ure thinking of moving to s africa, dont!!!


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## Halo

Its always the same story.... People that go to SA are :

Either married/related to someone who "needs" to stay there
OR
Individuals who have $'s and think they will have a good life living in a de-developing country.

Its refreshing to hear someone saying what many think that have moved there...


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## captcha

*Froggy point of view*

Hi

Just a few words about our matter. 
I moved to South Africa in 2003. My wife is South African and of course that was easier for me to apply for Permanent Resident. 
We decided to move because I had enough of my job in France. I was working for IBM and IT at that time was just too much for me. 
To find a job was not very difficult because my father in law own a businness in Joburg and he was happy to offer a position to his son in law 
Before to move to South Africa, I made 3 trips over there. 
The main difference I noticed after the move it is : living is far far away of living.
When you visit, you enjoy everything : weather, happiness, ocean, game farm, lodge and so on. You find people very helpful and friendly for everything (white, coloured, black,..). You do not need to think about quality of public services, corruption or other similar matter. Yes of course, you know that joburg is one of the most dangerous city in the world but except board on the wall for security company and electric fence, that didn't look so bad.
The point is : you are in holiday and you just enjoy the best part of the country. 
When you decide to move, everything at the beginning is just ...different. In France people complain all the time about the poor quality of service (ok, that's a national sport to complain in France..i agree 100%). However, there are services in France. In south Africa, Joburg Water, ESkom, Telkom don't even know what this word means ! We were living in nice wonderful golden jail driving around between shopping center, school and work. A man was shouted just in front of our house by security company. The best friend of my son had a gun on his head after her mother was hijack (4 years old !). The whole family of my daughter best friend were traumatised by robber who robbed them at home with gun.
After 4 years, My expectation to see crime statistic coming down was dead. In 2007, we packed everything and went back to France.
In French we say "L'herbe n'est jamais plus verte ailleurs" which basically means : don't expect that other place where you want to live are better. They are just different.
I love South Africa. It's a wonderful country. I'd like to spend my life there with my family. I can handle poor service, corruption, cost of medical aid, cost of private school, crazy driver and so on...Only one thing today stop me to come back : my kids. I don't want to play with their life. Of course something can happen to them in France (car accident, or other) but the risk to be killed for a cell phone is close to zero here. I already lost my brother this year and when somebody you love is gone, you realized that doesn't matter how much you owned and how much opportunities you can have where you live. Only one thing is really important : people you love. 
Come back to South Africa will be a real pleasure for me...but i just can't. I do not want to see my kids six feet under because I decided to go back.

Well, difficult for me to explain my feeling in English. 
I understand why people love South Africa...but I understand too why they want to leave.


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## Halo

You explained it perfectly.


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## vegasboy

captcha said:


> Hi
> 
> Just a few words about our matter.
> I moved to South Africa in 2003. My wife is South African and of course that was easier for me to apply for Permanent Resident.
> We decided to move because I had enough of my job in France. I was working for IBM and IT at that time was just too much for me.
> To find a job was not very difficult because my father in law own a businness in Joburg and he was happy to offer a position to his son in law
> Before to move to South Africa, I made 3 trips over there.
> The main difference I noticed after the move it is : living is far far away of living.
> When you visit, you enjoy everything : weather, happiness, ocean, game farm, lodge and so on. You find people very helpful and friendly for everything (white, coloured, black,..). You do not need to think about quality of public services, corruption or other similar matter. Yes of course, you know that joburg is one of the most dangerous city in the world but except board on the wall for security company and electric fence, that didn't look so bad.
> The point is : you are in holiday and you just enjoy the best part of the country.
> When you decide to move, everything at the beginning is just ...different. In France people complain all the time about the poor quality of service (ok, that's a national sport to complain in France..i agree 100%). However, there are services in France. In south Africa, Joburg Water, ESkom, Telkom don't even know what this word means ! We were living in nice wonderful golden jail driving around between shopping center, school and work. A man was shouted just in front of our house by security company. The best friend of my son had a gun on his head after her mother was hijack (4 years old !). The whole family of my daughter best friend were traumatised by robber who robbed them at home with gun.
> After 4 years, My expectation to see crime statistic coming down was dead. In 2007, we packed everything and went back to France.
> In French we say "L'herbe n'est jamais plus verte ailleurs" which basically means : don't expect that other place where you want to live are better. They are just different.
> I love South Africa. It's a wonderful country. I'd like to spend my life there with my family. I can handle poor service, corruption, cost of medical aid, cost of private school, crazy driver and so on...Only one thing today stop me to come back : my kids. I don't want to play with their life. Of course something can happen to them in France (car accident, or other) but the risk to be killed for a cell phone is close to zero here. I already lost my brother this year and when somebody you love is gone, you realized that doesn't matter how much you owned and how much opportunities you can have where you live. Only one thing is really important : people you love.
> Come back to South Africa will be a real pleasure for me...but i just can't. I do not want to see my kids six feet under because I decided to go back.
> 
> Well, difficult for me to explain my feeling in English. *I understand why people love South Africa...but I understand too why they want to leave*.


 Great post, which embodies my sentiment 100%.


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## gerryalton

Hello all..


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## vegasboy

*Honeymoon horror: Briton's wife 'shot dead' as they looked for township restaurant*

The wife of a British tourist has been murdered on honeymoon in South Africa by armed robbers who hijacked the taxi she and her husband were travelling in.

*South Africa has one of the worst crime rates in the world, *but most problems occur in the poorest areas where tourists are unlikely to stray.

Although there were* 14,915 car-jackings there last year*, they are a rare occurrence in the Western Cape region, which has less crime than much of the rest of South Africa.


Read more: Newlywed Briton's wife 'shot dead' after robbers hijack them in South Africa | Mail Online


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## vegasboy

*3 arrested for Stellenbosch murder*

12 November 2010, News 24:

Stellenbosch – Three people have been arrested for allegedly murdering a woman in her home in Stellenbosch in September, Western Cape police said on Friday.

A 22-year-old man was arrested on Thursday and a 33-year-old and a 24-year-old were arrested on Friday morning.

"The investigation officer, together with a team of detectives from Stellenbosch (police) visited the houses of the suspects in Belhar on Thursday, spokesperson Captain Ren Matthee said.

They found the 22-year-old in the house together with some of the stolen items as well as items that were bought on the deceased's debit card.

Some of the stolen items which were found were a backpack, white **** running shoes, and a torch belonging to Marianne Hopkins' daughter, she said.


Read more: 3 arrested for Stellenbosch murder: News24: South Africa: News


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## vegasboy

Last night's horrible and sad ordeal is today highlighted worldwide, more so due to the fact that tourists were involved.

My heart goes out to this family, and the victim’s husband.

Many South Africans are trying their utmost best to remain positive about this country. Cape Town is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. But this state of affairs has gone too far now.

The psychological effects this incidence have on many South Africans, is beyond comprehension and difficult to explain if you were not born and raised here.

I was going to post more articles about the latest murders, but it is really too depressing. Like someone else on this thread said: There is a BIG difference between being a tourist here, being an expat for a few years, and having LIVED here for many years seeing and experiencing how this country is going down the tube.

In the Western Cape alone, we have a waiting list of more than 340 000 families waiting for free houses, the waiting period being more than 20 years and growing. People are getting frustrated and aggressive, demanding houses from government. All this is happening while a total of R25-billion of procurement and tender fraud involving government officials in 2010 alone was announced by Pravin Gordham last month.

Problem is that out of the 50 million population, only 5, 5 million pay taxes and 15 million receive welfare grants making us the largest welfare state in the world. The finances for these houses have to come from the same pocket being taxes. It is just impossible; whichever way you wish to cut the cookie.

Just this afternoon, while waiting at the traffic light in Cape Town, about 5 gentlemen approached me, begging me for food with desperation ready to kill in their eyes. They are starving, and it is becoming a matter of life and death. There just aren't any jobs for millions of these people. 1000's of illegal immigrants are entering our borders monthly. These people have families and children. 

About 5 million of them, being illegal immigrants, moved down here in hope for a better life over the last few years.

I sincerely pray for a miracle and mercy on South Africa!


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## Halo

The fact they you have to live through the decay..... knowing there is nothing you can do about it but be "positive"


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## vegasboy

Just another senseless killing where the accused entered an old aged home, and for no reason killed a 84 year old lady who was terminally ill. This happened less than 2 km's from my Cape town home in what is refered to as an upmarket area. About the 10th incidence this year in our area alone.

Your kids see this on TV, they look at you with fear in their eyes.


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## Vaquero67

Hi,

I just joined this forum and will be posting something else soon.


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## Vaquero67

Hello to all. I’m glad to find such a forum as this where I can enter into conversation with people like yourselves who can speak from your own experiences. I would like to thank you in advance if you are taking the time to read this rather lengthy post, and especially if you decide to take the time to post a comment in reply. 

I have read this entire thread about the cons of moving to or living in South Africa, and I appreciate all of the valuable input from everyone who posted. I will also read the thread regarding the pros to moving to or living in South Africa, and perhaps I will post this on that thread as well, if a moderator says it is permitted and/or suggests I do so, as I would like to receive feedback from members of this forum who may read that thread and not read this one.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, each individual has his or her reasons for either staying in S.A. or for leaving S.A. I have made a series of choices which now dictates that I must make some difficult decisions in the near future regarding a possible future in S.A., and I would like for those decisions to be as educated and as thought out as they can be. With that being said, I will share my story with you and then invite you to offer your honest opinions.

I am a middle-aged American male. I am a moderately experienced electrician who is not licensed, and I have a Bachelor of Science degree in an unrelated field. Thus, I have been able to make a somewhat comfortable living for myself as a single man in the United States. My children are grown and my parents are still living. I have recently become married to a South African citizen. She owns and operates her own business from her comfortable home in Johannesburg and has two teenage sons and one adult son who reside with her. We are faced with the dilemma of deciding whether to remain in South Africa where she can continue with her business and maintain the comfortable life to which she and her sons have grown accustomed, or to give up that lifestyle and move to the U.S. where I can support us (though probably not in the manner to which she and her sons are used to). She is basically opposed to moving to the United States and wants me to start my own business in S.A., but I don’t think I am qualified to do so, and I’m not sure that I would be allowed to, anyway. I’m not sure I stand a very good chance of gaining employment, either, when so many S.A. citizens are already struggling to find jobs. Basically, I just don’t see a very bright future for us in S.A. compared to what appears to be available in the United States. But perhaps my perception is not correct. 

I must say that our struggle to make a decision has been very strenuous on our relationship. She loves South Africa and the life she has here, and I think that a life in the United States would actually offer a better future for her sons and for us in the years to come. Of course, there are many factors to consider, some of which have been mentioned already in this thread. 

My greatest concern is one of safety and freedom in everyday life. As my wife and I were getting to know each other and learning of each other’s cultures, I was appalled by some of the stories she relayed to me of life in Johannesburg. At one point, such things were enough for me to call off the relationship, but then we both grew more miserable each day without each other. I know there has to be some reasonable solution to our dilemma. 

As a man, I want my family to be safe, and I’m willing to sacrifice some comforts and conveniences in order to have that safety. Also, as a man who has spent his life enjoying a large degree of freedom, I want my wife and her sons to also experience what life can be like with such freedom, especially the freedom from fear. I grew up enjoying playing in a yard in a neighborhood where no one had even chain link fences, much less walls with electric and barbed wire on top of them. I enjoyed lying on a blanket in the yard at night looking up at the stars. I enjoyed riding bikes and playing ball with friends and playing in the nearby wooded area in our neighborhood. That same degree of freedom is still basically present where I grew up. I don’t think I can say the same of Johannesburg, or of even the rural areas of South Africa, but perhaps I’m wrong. 

Basically, one of us must give up the life we are accustomed to in order for us to be together as a family, and our decision must be based upon facts. We must also try to consider the current directions into which both of our countries are headed, which is obviously difficult to predict. We must weigh what is most important in life. Personally, I see no point in trying to maintain a comfortable home and profitable business in a place where the existence of that is threatened on a daily basis and where life cannot be enjoyed the way that I think it was meant to be enjoyed. From my perspective, my wife’s life in Johannesburg has been mere existence as a prisoner within her own walls. I think I would rather be a middle-class man who lives in an environment with safety and freedom than be a somewhat upper-class man who has to constantly worry about his comfortable life being take from him, literally. But, I also understand that life is about sacrifice, and I’m willing to make sacrifices if I can determine that those sacrifices will benefit the entire family in the long run and in the whole scheme of things. 

I guess I’m just hoping that someone can present me with all the cons of living in Johannesburg and still give me some light at the end of the tunnel (some pros, if you will). I know I’m writing to people who have had their own personal experiences and reasons for leaving or staying, and I know this is a thread about the cons of moving to or living in South Africa, but maybe I’m also hoping that someone can provide something of an unbiased analysis of the pros and cons, because at this point I’m so wrapped up in this whole dilemma that it’s difficult for me to approach it objectively and without emotion, I think. 

I apologize to you all if this is not the most appropriate thread on which to post this ‘question’. Please forgive me if my post is intrusive and unwelcome, and please direct me to a more appropriate thread. This is the first time I’ve posted to such a forum before. Thank you for your patience and understanding, and for your helpful comments!


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## captcha

*Life is a permanent choice*

Hi Vaquero,

read your personal story is very interesting. I will give you my personnal opinion but be aware that is only MY opinion.
Everything is question of balance. At the beginning, you think it is not so difficult.You draw a line. On the left side postive points of South Africa and on the rigth side negatives points.
But it's not so easy. There is a feeling on the middle of that. You must understand that life is South Africa when you've got a litlle bit of money could be much easier that anywhere else in our "developped" country like us or europe.
In France, you wake-up early on the morning, dress you kids, give them breakfeast, run to the school and go to work. At 6PM, you rush to the school again to fetch your kids.
The time to go home and to do home work, straight to their activities...karate, dancing...
Back home at 8PM, diners and at 9PM bed times for the kids.
And after and only after you start to breath. 
On a weekend, there is shopping for the week, housecleaning, ironing, kids friends and....sunday night is already there !
You may have a very good salary and enjoy somebody to do your cleaning and ironing twice a week but you still have to run. 
For my wife who is South African, Life in France was just crazy ! Why ?
In south Africa, when you've got a little bit of money, you've got a maid. The maid is there everyday to do what ever need to be done home. The house is always clean, clothes ready, garden green, pool blue and ...security gard at your door !
What I want to say it's that will be very difficult for your wife if she's businnes owner and own good money to leave South Africa. It's not only money it's also lifestyle. Ask her. did she clean the floor the past year or wash the dish ? If she have to go the the us (or anywhere else) she will have to do many things not particulary pleasant for her.
Yes of course she will be safe overthere and she will have "freedom". But did she feel unsafe ? 
My father in law move to South Africa, Joburg 40 years ago. The end of apartheid was for him a great oportunitie for his business. He know that south Africa is dangerous...he was nearly killed 15 years ago but nothing ever will make him leave the country. South Africa is in this heart and blood.
South Africa is a wonderfull country. I'm not sure if the outlook for the country is sunny. I think there is still a chance to day for the country to may choose the right direction. 
US looks great for me too. I just went their for holidays. I can't say more. But you offer to her to leave her businness and standard of life to leave what she will find an "average" life in the us. 
Sorry to be so rude but I think, if she accept, that will be very hard for her because she loved to be there doesn't matter the major security problem...and in the other hand, if you come, you must accept too to leave an easy life...in a golden jail. 
Average life and golden jail....that's the main point. You will have to make a decision on that
good luck. I may have to make the choice myself again and I know there is nothing easy.


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## Halo

Great stat this.... Ouch

iafrica.com | news | sa news | 1 in 3 men admit to rape


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## zambezi.king

Vaquero67,

You say at one time your relationship nearly ended due to the realities of SA and that you got back together due to your misery. well those realities are still there and will in all likelyhood get worse (this is africa afterall). If you can get your head around the dangers then there could be a future for you here. As for your wife's kids... they are grown up and can make theei own way in the world! I have always said that this is not a place to bring kids to or up in but they are adults.

As for the standard of living... if you wife is a good business woman she should be able to start something up in the USA.

Lastly, the chances of something happening here will (IMHO) only increase as the country sinks lower. Even if nothing happens to you, are humans supposed to live under the constant threat of violence? It has an effect on the psyche and on the individual's outlook on life. In the end if you cannot change your partner's mind to leave then you have to decide to stay and take your chances... it is afterall only your life not any young children or foreign wife that you are brining into the situation.

PS as for the job situation, if you are married t oa south african then you can do any job you want, you are not tied to a work permit or any other restrictions that I know of.

Good luck.


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## vegasboy

Halo said:


> Great stat this.... Ouch
> 
> iafrica.com | news | sa news | 1 in 3 men admit to rape


 Jip, OUCH! This is a SAD state of affairs, and I hope every single person takes note of this report, especially so many who are living in denial in South Africa with their "it happens all over the world" mentality.

In my personal humble opinion, I will NEVER recommend that children be raised in South Africa if there is any other option available, never. That is just MY opinion, and I respect any person who feels different.


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## vegasboy

*These brutal murders must stop*








In memory of 3 year old Willemien Potgieter who was shot and killed execution-style with her mother, and her father beaten to death. In the last 7 days (last week) the Western Cape Province (1 of 9 provinces) reported 84 murders, 93 rapes of which 62 were against children ranging from babies to 18 years old. GOD HAVE MERCY ON THIS COUNTRY...


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## guojian53

*Chile instead of Western Cape*

Well, I have been researching different venues in which to retire. I am considering Chile. It has the same climate as the Western Cape, but it has a lower crime rate, a strong police force, and excellent health care, with an affordable cost of living. I am also looking at Peru and Ecuador. It should be no problem, since I speak Spanish. But I don't yet speak Afrikaans. LOL

Richard



vegasboy said:


> In memory of 3 year old Willemien Potgieter who was shot and killed execution-style with her mother, and her father beaten to death. In the last 7 days (last week) the Western Cape Province (1 of 9 provinces) reported 84 murders, 93 rapes of which 62 were against children ranging from babies to 18 years old. GOD HAVE MERCY ON THIS COUNTRY...


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## Halo

guojian53 said:


> Well, I have been researching different venues in which to retire. I am considering Chile. It has the same climate as the Western Cape, but it has a lower crime rate, a strong police force, and excellent health care, with an affordable cost of living. I am also looking at Peru and Ecuador. It should be no problem, since I speak Spanish. But I don't yet speak Afrikaans. LOL
> 
> Richard


Why not just retire in old USA.....?


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## guojian53

*Cost of Living*

Cost of living is increasing here in the states. Pensions are usually fixed, and have no cost of living allowances. And the Republicans are looking to get rid of affordable healthcare in this country.

Besides I am getting weary of the negativity and the rudeness in this country.

Richard



Halo said:


> Why not just retire in old USA.....?


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## gabriele

One of the problem with taxis is their human illegal overload. It prevents them from stopping in time when the traffic lights change from orange to red, for example. My son had a bad accident in Durban for that reason. Unfortunately, nothing is done to stop letting too many people into a taxi, whose breaks are not the best by the way. I was a Natal Durban driver for 20 years. Rush hour in Pinetown was something rather important to avoid. Taxis couldn't care less about other drivers at those times of days.


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## gabriele

*Cost of living ZA Johannesburg, Cape Town, whereever.*

In October and November 2010 I went to Cape Town to my son's wedding. 

The occasion was ideal for doing some driving around, visiting super markets and malls with the family and even renting Cape holiday apartments. 

The family of my inlaws wants me to return back to join them in the sunny Western Cape. My son is undecided. He leaves it to me to take a decision. 

I must admit that I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw how the prices of groceries have gone up since I left South Africa in 2001 after 25 years of residency.

Everything which is imported costs basically the same as things in Europe Spain, for example. The Euro and the South African Rand have become almost on par. Except for fruit, vegetables, meat and fish which are grown locally. ..
Medicine also seems to be about as costly as in Europe. 

South African Holiday home accommodation in and around Cape Town is slightly cheaper if you shop around. And what you get is better quality too. 

Buying real estate seems to be somewhat cheaper but I would have needed to study the situation more in depth. Much depends on locations, of course. 
But then I wonder, how I would be able to get a large sum of money out of the country without having a business or any other good reason. It remains to discuss this with an auditor and a proper shipping expert. 

An important criteria regarding ZA living would be the kind of job or business you have. Wages and earnings are definitely lower in South Africa, not only in Johannesburg, Durban or Cape Town... And don't forget that lower class in the modern South Africa has no color. It comes in all kinds of shades.


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## crock

*Cadre Deployment*

This is the biggest problem - struggle heros, with a revlutionary pedigree, are being put in charge of organs of state that they know very little about.

Some call it a general ineptitude - I think it is more of not having the right man for the job.


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## gabriele

Yes, but most of the ones that are not clued up enoug are wise to employ expert consultants. Perhaps, a bit more costly, but certainly worth it after all. I love South Africa, although it has its faults like all countries by the way. I have come accross a few brilliant people of all races during my pretty long life there. Unfortunately, I can't really afford to live there on my own. Coming to think of it: The best management is only as good as its consultants in Industry, Commerce *and* in Governments.


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## crock

For a great perspective on all that is happening in South Africa, then visit http://www.newsnook.co.za

It is a great news aggregator with a nice broad overview of what is going on in SA


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## frank sommes

Politicians like Mr Malema should think about what messages they will be conveying before they do public appearances.


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## arnaud

crock said:


> For a great perspective on all that is happening in South Africa, then visit http://www.newsnook.co.za
> 
> It is a great news aggregator with a nice broad overview of what is going on in SA


Eyewitness News: Police shoot alleged car thief

In France or UK, such story would lead to riots in suburbs, and policemen sent to jails. In SA, the policemen are called "heroes"


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## Native Texan

Halo said:


> The cost of living is high when compared to Europe/USA/Australia - Comparing apples with apples.


This is simply not true. I have a house in both South Africa and the USA. the cost of utilities in SA is less than 1/3 the cost of my house in the USA. I can get a good steak meal at a good resteraunt in SA for abouit 1/2 the cost of a like resteraunt in the US. My house in SA is about twice the size of my house in the US and has a pool and sits on one hectar of land in a private wildlife reserve and even with the private security of the estate the cost is less than 1/2 the cost of my smaller home on a 1/8 hectar plot in the US. The price of fuel is more or less the same, groceries in SA tend to be a little less. About the only thing that is more expensive in South Africa is an automobile. I have heard from friends living in the UK that the cost of living in the UK is much more expensive than the USA so it must be a lot more than in SA. I don't know where you get your stats but I get mine from actual experience in both countries when comparing costs between SA and USA.


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## Halo

HUH? Are you comparing earning Rands in SA and living their and earning $'s and living in the USA - That's a comparison.


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## Native Texan

Halo said:


> HUH? Are you comparing earning Rands in SA and living their and earning $'s and living in the USA - That's a comparison.


I am retired from a job in the US. The dollars I had to spend on the items I listed made it impossible to keep up my home and lifestyle the way I did while working full time. I take the same retirement income and move to SA and I live very comfortably in a great location, community and home. I have since sold my home in the US but that money is in a retirement fund that will not be used for 7-10 more years. Since this is an expat blog, I am saying that as an expat, I can live at a much higher level and still have money left over due to the lower costs of almost everything by moving to South Africa as opposed to living in the US.


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## Halo

That's you..... for jo blogs its a different story sir. You are an exception and not the rule. I hope your live a safe and happy life in SA.


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## Lotus1979

Halo said:


> That's you..... for jo blogs its a different story sir. You are an exception and not the rule. I hope your live a safe and happy life in SA.


to what rule ? When they did a survey of expats in South Africa they found them to be the third happiest of all expats. S.A was thus voted third best place in the world to retire. 

The best countries to retire to - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Finance

Don't lose sleep.


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## Halo

Retire..... Perhaps (if you like being a prisoner) - To live and raise a family.... I would love to see that stat. Please create another profile and post. Thanks !


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## vegasboy

*I'm sure this is only a coincidence...?*

Is it a coincidence that so many things can happen to people close to me in such a small space of time?

Last week I was informed that for the umpteenth time a cell phone was stolen during the church service. Churches do not want to admit to it or make it public, but it is an ongoing and growing frustration, and the church I am refering to is in a traditional white Afrikaans community. We are afraid that people may be discouraged to go to church should they know that vehicles and personal belongings are stolen during services. CCTV in-and outside the campus is not even a deterrent to those doing their Sunday affirmative action shopping.

Last week we were scammed three times by different scammers (Tanzanite Scam) depositing stolen checks into different non related business accounts.

Yesterday my brother phoned me informing me that thieves got access to his car at a mall and personal belongings were stolen in the burglary and the car damaged inside.

This morning I opened my emails to find a facility manager working for us reporting the following to the HR Department: “I joined Sable exit on the road traveling around Century City when people in army like uniforms forced me off the road. With their uniforms and caps they looked like police / security staff to me. 

They told me to present my driver’s license. When I took out my license, which was I kept in my wallet, one person grabbed my wallet and cell phone. My vehicle's engin was still running. During the struggle, the second of the trio sprayed something like pepper spray into the vehicle. I managed to slap the spray out of his hand and grabbed the phone which was in the other hand, but could not prevent the men getting away with my cash. 

An unknown person in black car stopped, jumped out and fired a shot in the air. I used the gap to chase away.

Police would not take the case. Too little information. I just thought of survival...” 

I was recently told that crime is coming down in South Africa. And don't forget, these things happen allover the world... Talk about the Psychology of immigration: This is part of the mental battering many have to endure on a daily basis and are expected to be postive about this country. Then again, there are thousands who never experience any of this...


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## Halo

Not in my neck of the woods mate


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## vegasboy

*Zuma said if you vote ANC you will go to heaven*


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## gabriele

*Why some are attacked in ZA and others not.*



vegasboy said:


> Is it a coincidence that so many things can happen to people close to me in such a small space of time?
> 
> Last week I was informed that for the umpteenth time a cell phone was stolen during the church service. Churches do not want to admit to it or make it public, but it is an ongoing and growing frustration, and the church I am refering to is in a traditional white Afrikaans community. We are afraid that people may be discouraged to go to church should they know that vehicles and personal belongings are stolen during services. CCTV in-and outside the campus is not even a deterrent to those doing their Sunday affirmative action shopping.
> 
> Last week we were scammed three times by different scammers (Tanzanite Scam) depositing stolen checks into different non related business accounts.
> 
> Yesterday my brother phoned me informing me that thieves got access to his car at a mall and personal belongings were stolen in the burglary and the car damaged inside.
> 
> This morning I opened my emails to find a facility manager working for us reporting the following to the HR Department: “I joined Sable exit on the road traveling around Century City when people in army like uniforms forced me off the road. With their uniforms and caps they looked like police / security staff to me.
> 
> They told me to present my driver’s license. When I took out my license, which was I kept in my wallet, one person grabbed my wallet and cell phone. My vehicle's engin was still running. During the struggle, the second of the trio sprayed something like pepper spray into the vehicle. I managed to slap the spray out of his hand and grabbed the phone which was in the other hand, but could not prevent the men getting away with my cash.
> 
> An unknown person in black car stopped, jumped out and fired a shot in the air. I used the gap to chase away.
> 
> Police would not take the case. Too little information. I just thought of survival...”
> 
> I was recently told that crime is coming down in South Africa. And don't forget, these things happen allover the world... Talk about the Psychology of immigration: This is part of the mental battering many have to endure on a daily basis and are expected to be postive about this country. Then again, there are thousands who never experience any of this...


When you are drivng a fleshy BMW car and run around with diamond an other jewels on you, you are asking for trouble. As you said, the same may be valid for other countries with poor people. 
Whereever you leave things in a car you are inviting for car damage and robbery. 

I used to drive an XJ6 jag to church at one stage. They stole my hub cabs which fitted onto some taxis. Hence a market for my hubcaps. 

I didn't put the remaining back. Problem solved. The rest of a Jaguar cannot be sold for taxis, except the batttery. 

You must get streetwise, whereever you live in the world. 
Also, in some countries it is best not to stop for police, but drive to the next police department and tell them, just in case. This solves the problem, in case the police was for real.


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## Beverly

vegasboy said:


> Is it a coincidence that so many things can happen to people close to me in such a small space of time?
> 
> Last week I was informed that for the umpteenth time a cell phone was stolen during the church service. Churches do not want to admit to it or make it public, but it is an ongoing and growing frustration, and the church I am refering to is in a traditional white Afrikaans community. We are afraid that people may be discouraged to go to church should they know that vehicles and personal belongings are stolen during services. CCTV in-and outside the campus is not even a deterrent to those doing their Sunday affirmative action shopping.
> 
> Last week we were scammed three times by different scammers (Tanzanite Scam) depositing stolen checks into different non related business accounts.
> 
> Yesterday my brother phoned me informing me that thieves got access to his car at a mall and personal belongings were stolen in the burglary and the car damaged inside.
> 
> This morning I opened my emails to find a facility manager working for us reporting the following to the HR Department: “I joined Sable exit on the road traveling around Century City when people in army like uniforms forced me off the road. With their uniforms and caps they looked like police / security staff to me.
> 
> They told me to present my driver’s license. When I took out my license, which was I kept in my wallet, one person grabbed my wallet and cell phone. My vehicle's engin was still running. During the struggle, the second of the trio sprayed something like pepper spray into the vehicle. I managed to slap the spray out of his hand and grabbed the phone which was in the other hand, but could not prevent the men getting away with my cash.
> 
> An unknown person in black car stopped, jumped out and fired a shot in the air. I used the gap to chase away.
> 
> Police would not take the case. Too little information. I just thought of survival...”
> 
> I was recently told that crime is coming down in South Africa. And don't forget, these things happen allover the world... Talk about the Psychology of immigration: This is part of the mental battering many have to endure on a daily basis and are expected to be postive about this country. Then again, there are thousands who never experience any of this...



Hello - Have to say I am one of the thousands, touch wood ... but am preparing to leave SA - not because of any violent act that has been perpetrated towards me or anyone even close to me, but for the very fact that you live each day wondering ...
The biggest factor in SA is that you just don't realise how stressful your life has become looking over your shoulder all the time, turing on your alarm, locking your doors, dealing with guys tapping on your car window to sell you something each time you pull up at the traffic lights, or just having to go against your human code of ethics by ignoring those in need and getting immune to driving past fellow human beings picking at a living in the townships every day. I had the priviledge of growing up in Europe with the knowledge that I can (with the acceptance that poor inner city areas are probably the same the world over!) safely travel as a woman alone on a train or bus at virtually anytime, walk in the park if I want by myself without my dogs, walk to the shops in the winter dusk etc etc. It's all about personal freedom and the lack of it that is the biggest drawback. We can find crime everywhere in the world, but it is a bit different when it suddenly becomes the main topic of conversation whether it happens to you or not.

On the other hand, you cannot deny this is a beautiful country with some of the most vibrant and positive people in the world, sometimes facing adverstity with a breaktaking attitude, but a short stint in a safe community overseas suddenly makes you realise what an extraordinarily strange life you have become used to living.

All that being said can't quite leave it all behind forever and am sure I will be back for holidays and to catch up with some truly fabulous people. Africa gets in your blood, but oh for the day when I stop panicking about what some random person might be doing on my street, and whether every move a woman alone makes when darkness falls is subject to such deliberation ...


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## Johanna

Beverly said:


> Hello - Have to say I am one of the thousands, touch wood ... but am preparing to leave SA - not because of any violent act that has been perpetrated towards me or anyone even close to me, but for the very fact that you live each day wondering ...
> The biggest factor in SA is that you just don't realise how stressful your life has become looking over your shoulder all the time, turing on your alarm, locking your doors, dealing with guys tapping on your car window to sell you something each time you pull up at the traffic lights, or just having to go against your human code of ethics by ignoring those in need and getting immune to driving past fellow human beings picking at a living in the townships every day. I had the priviledge of growing up in Europe with the knowledge that I can (with the acceptance that poor inner city areas are probably the same the world over!) safely travel as a woman alone on a train or bus at virtually anytime, walk in the park if I want by myself without my dogs, walk to the shops in the winter dusk etc etc. It's all about personal freedom and the lack of it that is the biggest drawback. We can find crime everywhere in the world, but it is a bit different when it suddenly becomes the main topic of conversation whether it happens to you or not.
> 
> On the other hand, you cannot deny this is a beautiful country with some of the most vibrant and positive people in the world, sometimes facing adverstity with a breaktaking attitude, but a short stint in a safe community overseas suddenly makes you realise what an extraordinarily strange life you have become used to living.
> 
> All that being said can't quite leave it all behind forever and am sure I will be back for holidays and to catch up with some truly fabulous people. Africa gets in your blood, but oh for the day when I stop panicking about what some random person might be doing on my street, and whether every move a woman alone makes when darkness falls is subject to such deliberation ...


Very good and true posting Beverly.


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## gabriele

*Nevertheless Africa being in your blood*



Beverly said:


> Hello - Have to say I am one of the thousands, touch wood ... but am preparing to leave SA - not because of any violent act that has been perpetrated towards me or anyone even close to me, but for the very fact that you live each day wondering ...
> The biggest factor in SA is that you just don't realise how stressful your life has become looking over your shoulder all the time, turing on your alarm, locking your doors, dealing with guys tapping on your car window to sell you something each time you pull up at the traffic lights, or just having to go against your human code of ethics by ignoring those in need and getting immune to driving past fellow human beings picking at a living in the townships every day. I had the priviledge of growing up in Europe with the knowledge that I can (with the acceptance that poor inner city areas are probably the same the world over!) safely travel as a woman alone on a train or bus at virtually anytime, walk in the park if I want by myself without my dogs, walk to the shops in the winter dusk etc etc. It's all about personal freedom and the lack of it that is the biggest drawback. We can find crime everywhere in the world, but it is a bit different when it suddenly becomes the main topic of conversation whether it happens to you or not.
> 
> On the other hand, you cannot deny this is a beautiful country with some of the most vibrant and positive people in the world, sometimes facing adverstity with a breaktaking attitude, but a short stint in a safe community overseas suddenly makes you realise what an extraordinarily strange life you have become used to living.
> 
> All that being said can't quite leave it all behind forever and am sure I will be back for holidays and to catch up with some truly fabulous people. Africa gets in your blood, but oh for the day when I stop panicking about what some random person might be doing on my street, and whether every move a woman alone makes when darkness falls is subject to such deliberation ...


Beverly you are so right. 
Now I am in Europe and I am craving the vibrant pulse of Africa. However, my daughter felt a big relief after she stayed all by herself in Europe. Above all, as she had also worked for Life Line. 
Just figure the incidences she was confronted with. Why is it always a minority that makes others suffer so much and most of all African people?


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## Beverly

gabriele said:


> Beverly you are so right.
> Now I am in Europe and I am craving the vibrant pulse of Africa. However, my daughter felt a big relief after she stayed all by herself in Europe. Above all, as she had also worked for Life Line.
> Just figure the incidences she was confronted with. Why is it always a minority that makes others suffer so much and most of all African people?



That is so true, Gabriele, it is the minority and Africa does get such bad press and I loathe adding to it, but in honesty its not at all relevant for the general visitors who just love the countryside and the people, but when you live here it seeps into your soul and you do wonder what it will take and how long it will take to set it right. Of course that opens a whole can of worms, and it would take reams to put that into perspective and we can't avoid seeing that cultural traditions and our ancestors have played a large part in how the country is today. 

I do hope that this all comes to rights as it is a truly vibrant society and the majority of people are wonderful and enormously caring of each other, but it might take another 100 years and I don't have the time!


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## gabriele

Beverly said:


> That is so true, Gabriele, it is the minority and Africa does get such bad press and I loathe adding to it, but in honesty its not at all relevant for the general visitors who just love the countryside and the people, but when you live here it seeps into your soul and you do wonder what it will take and how long it will take to set it right. Of course that opens a whole can of worms, and it would take reams to put that into perspective and we can't avoid seeing that cultural traditions and our ancestors have played a large part in how the country is today.
> 
> I do hope that this all comes to rights as it is a truly vibrant society and the majority of people are wonderful and enormously caring of each other, but it might take another 100 years and I don't have the time!


A German Anthropologist who was a lecturer at the Pietermaritzburg as well as Durban Westville university in the late 20th century said to me once: "When you constantly walk through dirt you are bound to get dirty yourself in a way that it's hard to wash off.


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## Johanna

gabriele said:


> Why is it always a minority that makes others suffer so much and most of all African people?


But also the minority who help the poorest of the poor with medical, educational and other tools?

The minority are the cause of the problems in Africa, I am sure that 2% of the people cause 98% of the problems.


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## Halo

Johanna said:


> But also the minority who help the poorest of the poor with medical, educational and other tools?
> 
> The minority are the cause of the problems in Africa, I am sure that 2% of the people cause 98% of the problems.


I have to disagree - Its way higher than 2%


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