# Endemic Corruption Everywhere Which Boggles The Mind



## The Largisimo (Mar 30, 2009)

Hound Dog included these words in a description of a part of Mexico with which he is familiar. Generally speaking, if a ****** living in Mexico rents his home and uses public transportation what other areas or ways are they likely to experience "corruption".


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

The Largisimo said:


> Hound Dog included these words in a description of a part of Mexico with which he is familiar. Generally speaking, if a ****** living in Mexico rents his home and uses public transportation what other areas or ways are they likely to experience "corruption".


The odd taxi driver clicking the button on his meter to show a 10 peso more fare. I pay it if they are that desperate for 10 pesos but usually tell them that the fare is, for example, 35 pesos before they stop and click the button just in case I get a corrupt taxi driver. 

Once recently the kid at an overcrowded OXXO shortchanged me 1 peso.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

A counter story…

A few years ago I lost a credit and debit card out of my wallet. They were US banks cards that I normally don't carry around. I had them in my wallet because I had recently returned from a trip and had not put them away yet. In any event, I realized they were missing one day and had no idea where they had fallen out. So I immediately called the bank and canceled them, and arranged to get new ones.

Then I made a trip to the mercado where I buy all my groceries, a block from my house. A woman at one of the fruit stands immediately came up to me and told me that she had my cards. Apparently, they had fallen out of my wallet when I was paying for fruit from her stand a few days before. Since I am the only person with a non-Mexican name that ever shops there, I guess it was obvious who the cards belonged to. 

Unfortunately, there was no way to uncancel them.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

The Largisimo said:


> Hound Dog included these words in a description of a part of Mexico with which he is familiar. Generally speaking, if a ****** living in Mexico rents his home and uses public transportation what other areas or ways are they likely to experience "corruption".


I rent my apartment and take public transportation and the occasional taxi. In almost seven years of living here, I haven't had corruption affect me in any way at all. Maybe I live under a lucky star!


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> I rent my apartment and take public transportation and the occasional taxi. In almost seven years of living here, I haven't had corruption affect me in any way at all. Maybe I live under a lucky star!


If you live under a lucky star so does my wife, her friends and ex compañeros, her large family and their large extended families and all my/her friends and their large extended families and associates etc.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Pemex stations that short change or short liter...

Restaurants with local and ****** menu........

Isla may live under a lucky star but if she eats at a restaurant or shops at stores she is paying higher prices because the owner has to pay extortion or protection monies to gangs........


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Pemex stations that short change or short liter...
> 
> Restaurants with local and ****** menu........
> 
> Isla may live under a lucky star but if she eats at a restaurant or shops at stores she is paying higher prices because the owner has to pay extortion or protection monies to gangs........


Don't have a car so don't use Pemex stations.

Never been to a restaurant with local and ****** menus, though Sanborn's does offer one in English, which I don't need since I speak (and read) fluent Spanish.

I doubt that there are gangs in my neighborhood that extort protection money from local merchants, and I really doubt that Superama (where I do most of my food shopping) would ever be subject to that kind of extortion. Maybe, chico, you live under an unlucky star!


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## The Largisimo (Mar 30, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> I rent my apartment and take public transportation and the occasional taxi. In almost seven years of living here, I haven't had corruption affect me in any way at all. Maybe I live under a lucky star!


After reading this response I see my original post was poorly worded. After years of reading these forums and talking to expats all over the world it seems those who rent their home and take public transportation experience little if any corruption. I know trouble can arise while driving an automobile and home ownership brings many more things to be aware of than renting. I was curious in what other aspects of Mexican life one might encounter corruption of any significance.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> Don't have a car so don't use Pemex stations.
> 
> Never been to a restaurant with local and ****** menus, though Sanborn's does offer one in English, which I don't need since I speak (and read) fluent Spanish.
> 
> I doubt that there are gangs in my neighborhood that extort protection money from local merchants, and I really doubt that Superama (where I do most of my food shopping) would ever be subject to that kind of extortion. Maybe, chico, you live under an unlucky star!



Isla the first 2 sentences were replies to the original post, the last was meant for you, if you do not think everywhere in Mexico from Tijuana to Chetumal is not living under the influence of local gangs like Chicago of the thirties then you are naive. I have seen restaurants close because they did not want to pay, restaurants burned to the ground, bar owners now having to hide shotguns and pistols under the bar for not paying the thugs, I was in a gift shop in SMA once when the collectors were making a pickup and even watched a person watching a corner stand selling shrimp and counting the kilos from across the street so they got the correct share...Do not get started with Mexico City and DF the home of the kick back........


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

chicois8 said:


> Pemex stations that short change or short liter...
> 
> Restaurants with local and ****** menu........
> 
> Isla may live under a lucky star but if she eats at a restaurant or shops at stores she is paying higher prices because the owner has to pay extortion or protection monies to gangs........


If I ran into those problems, I would have left the country some 14 years ago. Of course, I wouldn't want to live in NYC nor NO.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Isla the first 2 sentences were replies to the original post, the last was meant for you, if you do not think everywhere in Mexico from Tijuana to Chetumal is not living under the influence of local gangs like Chicago of the thirties then you are naive. I have seen restaurants close because they did not want to pay, restaurants burned to the ground, bar owners now having to hide shotguns and pistols under the bar for not paying the thugs, I was in a gift shop in SMA once when the collectors were making a pickup and even watched a person watching a corner stand selling shrimp and counting the kilos from across the street so they got the correct share...Do not get started with Mexico City and DF the home of the kick back........


I guess I'm naïve, or else I live in a part of Mexico City where the crooks don't operate. Though sometimes new little businesses in my barrio close down after operating for a few months, that's par for the course for new businesses anywhere in the world. Never saw a restaurant burned to the ground or bar owners packing hidden firearms. You must hang out in more "interesting" places than I do! In any event, it's not something I want to dwell on while living here. If you want to dwell on it, that's your business.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

I am tempted to comment on our experience in living on a corner in Leon, the dividing line between 2 gangs, but I will save that because it has nothing to do with the OP.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I am tempted to comment on our experience in living on a corner in Leon, the dividing line between 2 gangs, but I will save that because it has nothing to do with the OP.


You can always start a new thread with your comments about living in a "war zone" of León.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

I think the widespread and spreading extortion from small and medium size businesses affects primarily Mexicans, and is not even on the radar of most expats since it is unlikely to affect them, or even be visible to them. 

I'm surprised that none of Alan's in-laws or friends have been affected by this, because I personally know a wide variety of people who have been affected - in Morelos, Veracruz, Guerrero and Edo. Mexico. It still doesn't seem quite as bad as in Guatemala, though. Maybe the region where Alan lives has not yet been invaded by these _tipos_ and hopefully never will be.

I was surprised and saddened to find out recently that even in Tepoztlan, which I had thought somewhat immune to these types of activities, at least some of the businesses are now having to pay this extortion "tax".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I work with indigenous and also help them deal with the governement and I think I could write a very entertaining book on corruption from the top to the bottom of the scale. It can get pretty depressing.
A lawyer friend of mine told me the other day, I think we are worst than Africa, I told her" no, do not worry you are not there yet but you are pretty good at it."


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

ojosazules11 said:


> I think the widespread and spreading extortion from small and medium size businesses affects primarily Mexicans, and is not even on the radar of most expats since it is unlikely to affect them, or even be visible to them.


I agree that this problem affects primarily Mexicans because with maybe 2 million tourists and expats in Mexico at one time and over 120,000,000 Mexicans of course mostly Mexicans will be affected...

But I have to disagree with the second part of your statement, expats are affected because shopkeepers, restauranteurs, innkeepers, tour companies,taxies etc.etc who deal with expats and tourists have to charge more to make up for what the thugs take, just like stores in the US raising prices because of shoplifting...


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

A friend of mine (past business owner in Chapala) was told one day on the street in Chapala that he had exactly 2 hours to bring the man 5000 pesos, or suffer the consequences. He paid, (he knew that to report it was very risky),but said if it happened again, he would return to the USA before ever paying. He no longer has the business. He knew the man (he was a bar owner).


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> You can always start a new thread with your comments about living in a "war zone" of León.


We have survived. Took us over 5 years to almost stop the graffiti. Our wall must have 200 coats of paint. I'll save it for a rainy day.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> We have survived. Took us over 5 years to almost stop the graffiti. Our wall must have 200 coats of paint. I'll save it for a rainy day.


OK. We look forward to hearing about your life in León. Just one question, why have you decided to live in such a sketchy neighborhood?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> OK. We look forward to hearing about your life in León. Just one question, why have you decided to live in such a sketchy neighborhood?


We didn't know about it until our wall was put up. We never visited the area at night or weekends. Wife had this lot when we married. The city park is across the street and it has a lake inside. That park/lake from our second floor bedrooms and porches, looks like our front yard. The hot air balloons (Nov.) are staged about 50 yards in front of our house. We have a rooftop view for miles. You learn to take the bad with the good.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

chicois8 said:


> I agree that this problem affects primarily Mexicans because with maybe 2 million tourists and expats in Mexico at one time and over 120,000,000 Mexicans of course mostly Mexicans will be affected...
> 
> But I have to disagree with the second part of your statement, expats are affected because shopkeepers, restauranteurs, innkeepers, tour companies,taxies etc.etc who deal with expats and tourists have to charge more to make up for what the thugs take, just like stores in the US raising prices because of shoplifting...


I guess I should have said most expats won't be aware they are being affected - if they are unaware of these extortionist rackets going on around them, they won't be aware that rising costs are at least in part due to that. I also meant that most expats are not the targets of extortion, although it sounds like some are, if they run a business.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

And what about Mexico City kidnappings, lets ask Delorean, a band from Spain, LOL


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> We have survived. Took us over 5 years to almost stop the graffiti. Our wall must have 200 coats of paint. I'll save it for a rainy day.


The graffiti is bad in my neighborhood but apparently not quite at the level of yours. I have occasionally painted over the graffiti on neighbor's walls as well as on mine.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

My opinion? Corruption and dishonesty are part of the country's DNA. While most people seem to have resisted the temptation to be dishonest, way too large a group has chosen the 'easy' way out ... offering all sorts of excuses as to why they abuse their countrymen ... and others. Change comes from a new generation having had enough or not willing to repeat the 'sins' of their forefathers. .. and it takes decades for it to happen.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Longford said:


> My opinion? Corruption and dishonesty are part of the country's DNA. While most people seem to have resisted the temptation to be dishonest, way too large a group has chosen the 'easy' way out ... offering all sorts of excuses as to why they abuse their countrymen ... and others. Change comes from a new generation having had enough or not willing to repeat the 'sins' of their forefathers. .. and it takes decades for it to happen.


Sadly, from one who has lived many, many years NOB in areas where illegals have come to work, I have found that the people who are the worse with them and take advantage of these people are mostly the US citizens who live there that speak their language. 
I have heard these people refer to the illegals as "trash" and a LOT worse. They charge these people a lot of money for giving rides, taking to the store, bringing them beer, etc., etc. 
That is why it is so curious to me that one of the most ardent supporters of allowing more immigration to the US is the Mexican American community (but, not all).
In my experience, the people that have been the kindest to the illegals (at least where I grew up and lived 50 years) are the "whites", but not the "poor white trash" if you follow me, and certainly not the blacks there.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Longford said:


> My opinion? Corruption and dishonesty are part of the country's DNA.


In my opinion this is a world wide problem and is part of human DNA...


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> The graffiti is bad in my neighborhood but apparently not quite at the level of yours. I have occasionally painted over the graffiti on neighbor's walls as well as on mine.


You don't live on the border of 2 gangs. 

They came through again last night. Seem to have painted about 7 blocks. First time for my barda in almost 3 months; got my porton good, usually they don't. We covered it in about 15 minutes (we are getting good)

Leon, IMHO, has been maybe the ugliest city in all of Mexico, with certainly the worse graffiti I have ever seem. But, in the last 5 years, honestly, there is improvement. Still maybe the ugliest city. 

We get away whenever we can, if no more than a day and a night. It helps. Started swim lessons, 2 days a week. Nice pool. My cost for a year was 59 pesos.Wife is 166 pesos a month. I'm old.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

When it comes to grafitti you are not alone. We have the worst grafitti in San Cristobal de las casas. Every house has it, it is awful and we are not in the miffle of gangland either. I think cities without grafitti are the exception rather than the norm but what has it got to do with corruption??


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

citlali;4517274I think cities without grafitti are the exception rather than the norm but what has it got to do with corruption??[/QUOTE said:


> This thread has wandered a bit, I will agree. At least the OP has not scolded us, yet.
> Threads here tend to wander more than other places I have seen, but not too many take much offense. Not too many that carry their feelings on their sleeves either (just a few).
> 
> All in all, a very decent Board.
> ...


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

coondawg said:


> You don't live on the border of 2 gangs.
> 
> They came through again last night. Seem to have painted about 7 blocks. First time for my barda in almost 3 months; got my porton good, usually they don't. We covered it in about 15 minutes (we are getting good)
> 
> ...


Install a cantera image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in your barda, or paint it
That will solve most of the problem


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> This thread has wandered a bit, I will agree. At least the OP has not scolded us, yet.
> Threads here tend to wander more than other places I have seen, but not too many take much offense. Not too many that carry their feelings on their sleeves either (just a few).
> 
> All in all, a very decent Board.


¡Gracias!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The image of the virgin seems to work but how many imagines can a town take?

By the way what happen when the grafitti "artists" are Evangelists and do not believe in Virgins or saints?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

GARYJ65 said:


> Install a cantera image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in your barda, or paint it
> That will solve most of the problem


I may give that a shot. No one here has done that, yet. Although I think I remember seeing one in some neighborhood here that had graffiti on it, too.  If I do and it works, I'll bye you a margarita, or 2.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I do not think the thread has gotten off target at all, street artists are the minority in graffiti art, it is the gangs marking their turf...Since the gangs are running the extortion and protection schemes which turns to violence against the business person trying to make a living...just like organized crime the gangs make so much money and then may have to pay off the police and judges for their protection.....so here we are back at the title of this thread...." Endemic Corruption Everywhere Which Boggles The Mind "......


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I do not think the gangs are making our street,iwe have got a few of the guys a bunch of young people who do not have anything better to do, some are political slogans some are young would be artists whose definition of art is very loose and once in a while we get the tiny taggings that mean your house is about to be hit...


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

citlali said:


> I do not think the gangs are making our street,iwe have got a few of the guys a bunch of young people who do not have anything better to do,



This is one of the definitions of GANG in my dictionary=

• informal group of people, esp. young people, who regularly associate together.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

We have a differnt definition.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

There are several definitions of _gang_:

1 : a group of criminals

a gang of drug dealers
a gang of thieves


2 : a group of young people who do illegal things together and who often fight against other gangs

street gangs
He is in a gang.
He was shot by a member of a rival gang.
gang violence


3 : informal : a group of people who are friends and who do things together

The gang's all here.
the gang at the office

Gang - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Notice which one comes first.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Sometimes some of us gang up here.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

And look at #3, are they in order of importance or equal definitions?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> And look at #3, are they in order of importance or equal definitions?


Generally speaking, dictionary definitions begin with the most commonly-accepted one and the following ones are more specialized and/or more colloquial in meaning.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Generally speaking, dictionary definitions begin with the most commonly-accepted one and the following ones are more specialized and/or more colloquial in meaning.


Generally that is true. In this case, I think they have them in the wrong order. In my opinion, definitions #2 and #3 are more common than #1.

A gang of criminals these days is more likely to be a cartel or the mafia.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> Generally that is true. In this case, I think they have them in the wrong order. In my opinion, definitions #2 and #3 are more common than #1.
> 
> A gang of criminals these days is more likely to be a cartel or the mafia.


Not too many James Gangs, or Barrow Gangs left around.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Interesting to look at the parallels of the word gang in English and its equivalent in Spanish. _Caveat: I am referencing Central American usage here, so there may be regional variations in relation to Mexico._ Back in the 80's I would generally hear/use the word "pandilla" for a street gang. Just like the English word gang, _pandilla_ could refer to a criminal type of group or just a group of young friends hanging out (the latter is currently definition #5 in RAE). But similar to the English "gangster", if someone was a "pandillero" they were up to no good.

When I first learned Spanish of the Central American variety 30 odd years ago, _mara_ was a fairly innocuous Central American slang word meaning group of people/friends. To say "the gang's all here" one could colloquially say, _"Está toda la mara." _ Of course, with the rise of the Mara Salvatrucha and the other _maras_ over the past few decades, the word is now strongly associated with the criminal gangs, and the _pandilleros_ are now _mareros_.

The RAE indicates that the word "mara" is regional to Central America and Mexico in terms of its reference to criminal gangs (RAE definition #1), and to El Salvador in its innocuous usage (RAE definition #2) , although its innocent reference to a group of friends hanging out was also common in Guatemala in my experience way back when.

Another perfectly fine word bites the dust!


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

probably no MS13 tags in the USA, LOL


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

chicois8 said:


> probably no MS13 tags in the USA, LOL


They started in Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha


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## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

ojosazules11 said:


> Interesting to look at the parallels of the word gang in English and its equivalent in Spanish. _Caveat: I am referencing Central American usage here, so there may be regional variations in relation to Mexico._ Back in the 80's I would generally hear/use the word "pandilla" for a street gang. Just like the English word gang, _pandilla_ could refer to a criminal type of group or just a group of young friends hanging out (the latter is currently definition #5 in RAE). But similar to the English "gangster", if someone was a "pandillero" they were up to no good.
> 
> When I first learned Spanish of the Central American variety 30 odd years ago, _mara_ was a fairly innocuous Central American slang word meaning group of people/friends. To say "the gang's all here" one could colloquially say, _"Está toda la mara." _ Of course, with the rise of the Mara Salvatrucha and the other _maras_ over the past few decades, the word is now strongly associated with the criminal gangs, and the _pandilleros_ are now _mareros_.
> 
> ...


mara is used interchangeably in Guatemala today, my wife's family members use it to describe a gang of friends or family and to describe gangs when that conversation arises. But more often than not pandillas is used to describe gang members.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> They started in Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mara_Salvatrucha


I found something very interesting in your post: it says that the MS-13 is present in Canada. I must be very naive, as I have always thought that Canada has not been touched with problems from gangs, drugs, violence, etc. (on either a large or small scale compared to other countries) People are always bringing up violence by gangs/drugs in the US when violence/drugs is mentioned in Mexico, but I have never heard any mention of it in Canada. And I know many Canadians live in Mexico. Well kept secret. Learn something new all the time.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I found something very interesting in your post: it says that the MS-13 is present in Canada. I must be very naive, as I have always thought that Canada did not have problems with gangs, drugs, etc. (on either a large or small scale compared to other countries) People are always bringing up violence by gangs/drugs in the US when violence/drugs is mentioned in Mexico, but I have never heard any mention of it in Canada. And I know many Canadians live in Mexico. Well kept secret. Learn something new all the time.


Last time I was in British Columbia the Hells Angeles were all over the news there for killings, extortion, drugs and prostitution. Many apparently were run out of California and are in BC. In one article is stated many local pólice were afraid of them and they were operating free reign in some places. The article went on to state even federal pólice were afraid of them. [RCMP]


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> Last time I was in British Columbia the Hells Angeles were all over the news there for killings, extortion, drugs and prostitution. Many apparently were run out of California and are in BC. In one article is stated many local pólice were afraid of them and they were operating free reign in some places. The article went on to state even federal pólice were afraid of them. [RCMP]


I would be afraid of them, too ! We have a saying where I come from (and please I don't want to start a war here): Some people just need killing. Death and retirement cure a lot of problems, but sometimes both take too long.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Guategringo said:


> mara is used interchangeably in Guatemala today, my wife's family members use it to describe a gang of friends or family and to describe gangs when that conversation arises. But more often than not pandillas is used to describe gang members.


I'm glad to hear that, Guategringo, because I used to use it frequently in the colloquial group of friends sense, "Cómo anda la mara por allí?" but have shifted in recent years. I guess there is also a difference between "la mara" as a group of friends and "las maras" as in the criminal gangs. 

Is _la mara_ ever used in Mexico in the slang "group of friends" sense, in anyone's experience? Or is that really a Central American usage only?


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