# Treatt Based Position on Social Security



## Dlawler

I am a US citizen residing in the UK (permanent resident).

I just in 2011 began receiving Social Security benefits from the US.

I understand that a Treaty between the US and the UK - allows me to File from 8833 with my 1040 tax return and declare that since I am subject to UK tax on my Social Security, that I do not have to pay tax on the benefit on my US return.

I have the form 8833, but do not know how to complete it.

It asks for the Internal Revenue Code provisions overrulled or modified by the treaty-based return position.

And, list the specific treaty position relied on.

Can any one help.


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## theOAP

For the specific treaty position relied on, I use:
b Article(s) - 17(3)

The Internal Revenue Code provisions overruled is a bit more difficult. I do not know which Section of the Code provides for taxation of Social Security benefits (maybe Bev Knows). What is really being overruled is the saving clause of the Treaty (Article 1(4)). Therefore I've always simply put "Article 1(4), saving clause of U.S./U.K. Tax Treaty". I have no idea if this is correct (I doubt it), but so far it's always been accepted. Use at your own risk, or better, consult someone who knows the correct answer.

For item 5 of 8833, be sure to include the Social Security details, and the amount from the SSA-1099. You should have received the 1099 in January of 2012.

By way of the brief summary requested in item 5 of 8833, I always include the exact wording from the Technical Explanation of the Treaty for Article 17 which reads: "Paragraphs 3 and 5 are exceptions to the saving clause. Accordingly, a U.S. Citizen who is a resident of the United Kingdom will not be subject to U.S. tax on any social security benefits,..." This is found at the top of page 65 of the Technical Explanation.

Again, use at your own risk as this is based on absolutely no authority.

The US/UK Treaty is 'unique', and is different from the standard US model used in most other countries. Here's the Technical Explanation:

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/teus-uk.pdf


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## Bevdeforges

You shouldn't have to file that form at all.

Take a look at Publication 915 on Social Security. Publication 915 - Social Security and Equivalent Railroad Retirement Benefits - Social Security and Equivalent Railroad Retirement Benefits On page 4 you'll see the following:



> U.S. citizens who are residents of the following countries are exempt from U.S. tax on their benefits.
> 
> Canada.
> Egypt.
> Germany.
> Ireland.
> Israel.
> Italy. (You must also be a citizen of Italy for the exemption to apply.)
> Romania.
> * United Kingdom*.


Period.
Cheers,
Bev


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## theOAP

Bevdeforges said:


> You shouldn't have to file that form at all.
> 
> Take a look at Publication 915 on Social Security. Publication 915 - Social Security and Equivalent Railroad Retirement Benefits - Social Security and Equivalent Railroad Retirement Benefits On page 4 you'll see the following:
> 
> 
> 
> Period.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I won't disagree with this. I'll withdraw my post to keep things simple.

In a discussion with the IRS at the UK embassy, they suggested that if the filer wished, they could include 8833 for "safety".

It appears I'm too late to edit the post. If you can delete it, please feel free to do so.


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## Rev Susi

*SS in tax treaty*

Bev is right. Under 'totalisation' provisions, US SS benefits are only taxable in your country of residence. The treaty provides for that in Art 17, para.3. The same article provides that alimony payments are taxable only in the UK, if the payment comes from the US and is reported on the Ex's 1040. All other pension and annuity payments, whether periodic or lump sum, are taxable in both countries, and you take a tax credit in the US, providing you're a UK resident.

The info you need is in the 'Technical Explanation of the US-UK treaty' where you find it all in something approaching English (unlike the treaty itself).


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## Bevdeforges

Rev Susi said:


> Bev is right. Under 'totalisation' provisions, US SS benefits are only taxable in your country of residence. The treaty provides for that in Art 17, para.3. The same article provides that alimony payments are taxable only in the UK, if the payment comes from the US and is reported on the Ex's 1040. All other pension and annuity payments, whether periodic or lump sum, are taxable in both countries, and you take a tax credit in the US, providing you're a UK resident.
> 
> The info you need is in the 'Technical Explanation of the US-UK treaty' where you find it all in something approaching English (unlike the treaty itself).


As long as you're resident in the UK, what you say is correct. However, the UK is one of only 8 countries which tax US social security benefits in the country of residence. If you live anywhere else and are a US citizen receiving SS benefits, you pay your income tax on those benefits to the US. Publication 915 has the details, including the list of those 8 countries.
Cheers,
Bev


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