# title deeds



## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi All
I have a bit of a concern regarding purchase of a new build property in the south side (Vrysoulles, Famagusta)
At this stage I have only placed a holding fee on the shell to take it off the market.

My wife and I went to Cyprus to purchase our dream house, and hopefully spend the rest of our lives there.

After 5 days of hard slog looking at property resale, It became apparent that we where not going to get what we wanted with the budget we had.

We got so caught up in the picking of tiles and furnishings etc... we did not do our background checks regarding new build, so we did not realize at the time, new build can be so much more risky to buy than resale due to developers not clearing there debts. upon the completion of the property.

Since we have been back in the UK I could not have expected the response from friends and family, who all seem to know someone who has gone down this line and had there fingers burned due to different reasons but mainly over the title deeds and mortgages being left on the un-built land, where the developer has not sold or not completed for some reason.
I emailed my solicitor in Cyprus to make sure the title deeds will be issued at the time of completion and the handover of the keys this is the responce

solicitors responce

"At this stage and as per you question which we thought it was clear from the beginning please note that you will not receive the title deeds upon delivery of the house . You are buying a new house however the separate title deeds have not yet been issued. When the developer will issue the deeds you will be notified however unfortunately we cannot give you a time frame of when the deeds will be issued."

end of response

I was aware that there is problems with deeds years ago but not with new build.

what are your thoughts and have others experienced this issue.

We are going to make a will, leaving the property to our siblings in the event of the inevitable, but I have also read that unless you have the title deeds I would not be able to do that due to the deeds being proof of sole ownership.

The more I read the more I am getting very nervous vibes.


Any help, comments would be greatly appreciated
thank you


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

sorry I forgot to mention on the last day we were introduced to a new build properties and we fell in love with the idea straight away, 
hence we got involved with picking tiles etc.....


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

If the property is on a development other properties, title deeds are not usually issued until the whole project is finished. This can take years if it is a large development.
once everything is finished a completion certificate will be applied for and once this is issued the process of issuing title deeds starts. This can take a year or more.


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Veronica said:


> If the property is on a development other properties, title deeds are not usually issued until the whole project is finished. This can take years if it is a large development.
> once everything is finished a completion certificate will be applied for and once this is issued the process of issuing title deeds starts. This can take a year or more.


thanks for the reply 
So if this could take years to issue the deeds how would we get on with leaving the property to our siblings without having a will in place.

this is our main concern 

thanks again


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Whether the title deeds have been issued is irrelevant as long as you have a will.


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Veronica said:


> Whether the title deeds have been issued is irrelevant as long as you have a will.


Hi Veronica

When my mother in law wanted to make a Will leaving her house in the UK, to her siblings.
Her solicitor said she had to have the title deeds to the property to do this.
Although she had paid her mortgage off she had never asked for the deeds.
So she applied for the deeds, and once in possession of them, she was able to take the deeds to the solicitor and make the will. 

the Will and the deeds are now with her solicitor.

Is this not the case in Cyprus? as everyone keeps telling me if i don't have the title deeds, I don't legally own the house, so i cant leave something in the Will that is not mine?

thanks for you help with this issue


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Mick

What you've been told is correct. If you don't have the Title Deed to the property you do not own the property. What you have is a claim to the property along with all the other purchasers plus any banks that have loaned the developer money and any other of his creditors.

You can leave a property in your Will. If it doesn't have Title Deeds your interest in the property goes to your heirs - that's no problem.

Buying a property without Title Deeds is a risky business! I know some people who have been waiting since 1979 to get the deeds to the properties their purchased in Coral Bay. If there are no problems it typically it takes 10-12 years for Title Deeds to be issued .

Currently there are some 70,000 people who are unable to get the deeds to the property they purchased because their developer has not repaid his loan/mortgage to the bank; the so-called 'trapped buyers' who were duped into buying property built on land their developer had earlier mortgaged to the bank.

I met with a delegation from the 'troika' of Cyprus' international lenders (European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund) three years ago and following that meeting the Government introduced a law to enable 'trapped buyers' to apply for Title Deeds. However that law failed to fully address the problem and out of those 70,000 buyers only 3,500 Title Deeds have been transferred.

Others (I don't know how many) cannot get Title Deeds due to planning violations.

Save yourself a lot of potential heartache and financial loss and restrict your search to property that have their all-important Title Deeds.

I published a one-page guide that should help you in your endeavours - Republic of Cyprus Property Purchase Checklist.

Regards,


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## JonandGaynor (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi and :welcome:
Firstly congratulations on your choice of village to purchase in. We have 5 excellent restaurants: Yiannis, Green Garden, Xilinos, Octogan and Georges. Also several decent bars; Fans Lounge, Tristar Bar and the Alexander Bar which has weekly events from comedy acts to singers and groups. Several coffee bars, an excellent pharmacy, bakery and our local store, Litsas, stock practically every sort of food needed for a weekly shop the majority of which seems to be Waitrose and Tesco's stock. 
I suspect your developer is Dimitri Michael, who has built most of the properties in the area, and if so take some comfort in the fact that in the 3 years we have been here we have not heard any derogatory comments about him.
We were fortunate in purchasing a building plot (different developer) and had the title deeds to the land immediately transferred to us. Although we have all the necessary building permits we are still waiting for the Final Certificate to be issued which could still be several years away but as the house deeds will then be written onto our land title deeds this is of no concern to us.
You say you have put a holding deposit onto the house, which I expect is non refundable, but if its not too late and you want to go the same route as ourselves I believe Yiannis, who owns the Octagon Tavern and a construction Company called Octagon Developments, has some building plots around the village for sale. Contact is 99695675 ( please note I have no connection with him whatsoever and this is not a recommendation but information of availability).
If you don't mind me asking whereabouts in the village are you moving too?


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi nhowarth
thanks for the reply
I read your 40 page PDF about a week ago,I stumbled on it by asking different questions in google, (good read for those who know nothing, like me, and an eye opener, thank you).
This prompted me to start asking some searching questions to my solicitor in Cyprus.

I based my questions around this document to my solicitor and now i have the answers i hoped i wouldn't receive, although the solicitor doesn't seem to think it is an issue?.

They tell me the land registry results say there are Memos on un built roads, Memos of tax, and there is mortgages on the land, hence i will not receive the title deeds. but the also assure me they will be waved and we will hold back around 5K, that will in the contract.
My worry is if we only hold back 5K surely it will be a drop in the ocean to there profit margin and if they decide to take the 5K on the chin, if favor of paying of the taxes and mortgages we could be without deeds and ownership for ever? please tell me if i am wrong i am pulling my hair out with the decision of going forward or pulling out.

thanks for all the advice
Mick


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Mick

If your lawyer doesn't think it's an issue, I suggest you ditch him/her and find another one who knows what he's talking about. I suggest you get in touch with one of the lawyers on the list provided by the British High Commission in Nicosia.

€5k is peanuts! Did your so-called lawyer have the presence of mind to advise you of the amount of the developer's debts (i.e. the memos and mortgage)?

If you buy now, those memos and mortgage will take precedence over your claim to own the property. As a consequence all those debts will have to be repaid before you can own the property.

One thing you can do is pay a proportion of the mortgage debt to the lender (the bank) and the balance to the vendor (this change to the law came in in 2011). So if the agreed sale price is (say) €200,000 and the proportion of the mortgage debt that relates to your property is (say) €50,000 you pay €50,000 to the bank and €15,000 to the developer.

However that will still leave unpaid debts for the road and taxes. (And it sounds as if the developer is in financial difficulties if he hasn't paid his taxes).

There's also a possibility of planning infringements. So although you may get the deeds to property (assuming the developer repays his debts) you will be unable to sell or mortgage the property until those planning infringements have been corrected. And I'll give you three guesses who will end up paying for the work!

I know of two lawyers in the Famagusta area who should have been strangled at birth and must be avoided at all costs! I can't name them here, but if you want to contact me via my website I can let you know their names.

Regards
Nigel


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

nhowarth said:


> you pay €50,000 to the bank and €15,000 to the developer.


That should have read "you pay €50,000 to the bank and €150,000 to the developer."

Rgds
Nigel


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

JonandGaynor said:


> Hi and :welcome:
> Firstly congratulations on your choice of village to purchase in. We have 5 excellent restaurants: Yiannis, Green Garden, Xilinos, Octogan and Georges. Also several decent bars; Fans Lounge, Tristar Bar and the Alexander Bar which has weekly events from comedy acts to singers and groups. Several coffee bars, an excellent pharmacy, bakery and our local store, Litsas, stock practically every sort of food needed for a weekly shop the majority of which seems to be Waitrose and Tesco's stock.
> I suspect your developer is Dimitri Michael, who has built most of the properties in the area, and if so take some comfort in the fact that in the 3 years we have been here we have not heard any derogatory comments about him.
> We were fortunate in purchasing a building plot (different developer) and had the title deeds to the land immediately transferred to us. Although we have all the necessary building permits we are still waiting for the Final Certificate to be issued which could still be several years away but as the house deeds will then be written onto our land title deeds this is of no concern to us.
> ...


Hi JonandGaynor
thanks for your response and warm welcome
the plot is less than 1/2 mile from the army base just off the main road between Freneros and Vrysoulles 
The area looks quiet but there is a super market and a garage within walking distance

the developer / builder is Marios


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

nhowarth said:


> Hi Mick
> 
> I know of two lawyers in the Famagusta area who should have been strangled at birth and must be avoided at all costs! I can't name them here, but if you want to contact me via my website I can let you know their names.
> 
> ...


Hi Nigel 

I have found a couple of links to make contact with you but they don't seem to be working

I know its not you concern and there is no problem if you don't want to give out your email, but I would be interested to here what you thoughts are regarding the email I received from my solicitor.

Like i said i may be reading to much into it but I cant afford to get it wrong at this stage or we lose everything we have built up for our children to eventual inherit.



kind regards
Mick


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi Mick

I don't like posting my email on a public forum - I get enough spam as it is without encouraging more. Some forums have an optional private messaging facility, but I haven't been able to find one here. You can contact me by clicking here if you wish.

As for my thoughts on the email you received from your lawyer he appears to be speaking through an orifice normally reserved for another purpose - if you get my drift.

I suggest you Google the name of the developer and the lawyer to see what you can discover about them.

Regards
Nigel


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## JonandGaynor (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi Mick
Not too sure exactly you are buying as there are 3 small estates with stock properties in that location, we are also on the Frenaros-Vrysoulles (Yiannaki Giovanni) Rd; facing the green line we are on the left of the road.
I've not heard of a builder called Marios but will ask around and let you know. Can't help with the lawyer side I'm afraid as we were lucky in having both an estate agent and lawyer who worked for us not the developer and our purchase went through very smoothly!
If there's anything you would like to know about the village or area I will gladly help if I can.
Regards
Jon


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

JonandGaynor said:


> I've not heard of a builder called Marios.


Unfortunately I know of a property developer in the area with the name Marios. But of course the Marios Mick is dealing with could be someone else (I'm trying to establish his identity). If you beat me to it please let me know.

Many thanks


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

nhowarth said:


> Hi Mick
> Some forums have an optional private messaging facility, but I haven't been able to find one here. You can contact me by clicking


Top right "Welcome" box. Click on Private Messages.

Pete


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

nhowarth said:


> Hi Mick
> . Some forums have an optional private messaging facility, but I haven't been able to find one here.
> 
> Click on the users name on one of their posts. A drop down box gives you some options including send private message.
> You both have enough posts by now to be able to use the facility.


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Veronica said:


> nhowarth said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Mick
> ...


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## JonandGaynor (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi Mick
I've asked around and even been to our village petrol station as they know most people here abouts but no one knows a builder by the name of Marios.


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

JonandGaynor said:


> Hi Mick
> I've asked around and even been to our village petrol station as they know most people here abouts but no one knows a builder by the name of Marios.


I have asked my solicitor to provide me with the land register findings and the full name of the developer / builder Marios

thanks for your efforts and I will post as soon as i know.

:fingerscrossed:


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## Mick1609 (Aug 27, 2017)

Hi all 

Thank you for the help with my post.

I would especial like to thank nhowarth for his hard work in finding all the information he has supplied me with.
without Nigel's help we could have made the biggest mistake of our lives. THANK YOU 


It appears that Marios ( CHR. KARAYIANNAS & SONS DEVELOPERS LTD ) is quite a character to say the least. and he makes headlines in the Cyprus property news.

There is also a lot of legal problems with the land such as the memos on roads, memos owing tax on the land, mortgages, and of course the title deeds will not be issued until all the issues have been addressed and sorted.

thank you all for your time and efforts in reading and replying to my post.

we intend to pick ourselves up dust off and try again at a later date, but this time we will be a lot more informed with your help.

kind regards
Mick


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

OMG the infamous Karayianas. Definitely run as quickly as you can in the opposite direction.
I am amazed they are still operating.


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## nhowarth (Dec 6, 2017)

Mick1609 said:


> I would especial like to thank nhowarth for his hard work in finding all the information he has supplied me with. Without Nigel's help we could have made the biggest mistake of our lives. THANK YOU


You're very welcome Mick. Feel free to get in touch again if you need advice.

Regards


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