# Guy Behind the 8 Ball, Advice Please



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Hi all,
OK, heart on my sleeve here: this is my first post on the forum, though I've considered moving to Australia for years now. Problem is that I have been caught up in some of this economic stuff over the past few years- job offshored several times, more unemployment than employment, totally trashed credit, hopelessly high debt from student loans for degree that never landed a job...

I figure that if I even try to go through the 'normal route' to a visa that my application will be laughed off of the table. But then there's another side that tells me that if a person was really successful at home it would actually give them less of a chance of succeeding in a foreign land. Whereas I feel the more different the land from my own, the better the chance that I'll succeed. And therefore they should actually let me in simply because I am such a miserable failure 

*More info if this helps:* I've worked ten years in IT, but never got a degree or programming skills. I worked in QA, back when that was a real and respected field in its own right. Now QA is the same as programming and my skill set no longer wanted in this country. Debt from my first (wasted) degree in business has kept me from affording going back to school again, getting certified, and being able to compete with all the foreigners, who of course do all have degrees and programming skills. I hear that education is affordable in Australia, and this is my real dream- to obtain a degree in my field, and get my job back in QA as I've always loved the work- and frankly it's all that I know. It would be a sweet bonus to have health care for once, and to 'start' saving for retirement as my American Social Security statements basically say that I'll have nothing (inflation adjusted) if I do retire in this country despite all the years that I actually did have work. Also I'm a white male so I basically qualify for no assistance of any kind, education or otherwise. Hopefully Australia is a little kinder to the white man. Anyway, its not like I have anything left to lose here.

*First question:* do you think they will actually see this logic or just brush me off as a hopeless loser? As far as my US record- they'd be right. 

*Second question:* what would be the easiest way for someone like me to get in and just prove myself on the ground abroad? All I'm really looking for is a fresh start in a very different environment. So which visa would be the 'easiest' to obtain? Maybe something short term?

*Third question:* this may sound a little risky, but I'm actually considering just moving over on some kind of tourist visa, making some contacts when I arrive and hopefully getting a company to sponsor me. Would this help? I mean if I actually had a job first before getting the visa?

*Finally:* I've basically lost everything that I had here at home, car, house, furniture, you name it- it's gone, and I have no family left here, so I have no ties, and really do have nothing to lose in trying something radically new and moving abroad. How 'out of the box' am I going to have to get (due to my circumstances and record) to make this happen?

Lots of info, so thanks for taking the time reading, and thanks in advance for any advice for the guy behind the 8 ball 

Jeff


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Jeff:

Welcome to the forum.

I won't comment too much on the 'loser' stuff, but for the most part Immi doesn't care one way or the other as you're not evaluated on that.

Basically Immi evaluates on this:
1. Skills you have
2. Clean criminal background (so no convictions, arrests)
3. Are healthy

***
First I would start by reading the Sticky links at the top of the forum. They will give you alot of info you need to consider before making such a move. 

Next visit the Immi website and go through their visa wizard.

***
Now how can you come here:
1. Skills: You'd first get evaluated based on work experience by the ACS and the RPL route (go to ACS (Australian Computer Society) - Membership, Professionalism and Leadership for ICT Professionals and the ICT Community to find out more about these terms).
If successful then you'd apply for one of the skilled visa categories. Processing time anywhere from 6 months - 18 months depending on whether the skill is in demand (two lists you want to view at the Immi website: MODL and CSL).

2. Student, you could enter as a student to an AU University and pursue or complete a degree. Once you did that you could then apply for one the temp visa --> permanent visa categories that are available to students

***
Q1:
They won't really consider 'loser' or 'help me'. It's just the facts with them, skills, health, background check.

Q2:
Skills option or Education option. See above

Q3:
Not worth it, most AU employers do not consider you unless you have a valid visa to work. It would just waste your time and money to try it that way. AU Immi is quite strict as well about working on visitor so if they even suspect you're here to do that they just won't let you into the country. 

You won't really have to get 'out of box' but certainly will need to improve your skills and self esteem a bit to have a good chance of success here. Also you have to build up some decent amount of savings before coming here. AU is not inexpensive to live in and especially not the first few months.

***
Have you considered Canada or New Zealand? They may be easier to get into and also have those social benefits you're looking at.




TumblingDice said:


> Hi all,
> OK, heart on my sleeve here: this is my first post on the forum, though I've considered moving to Australia for years now. Problem is that I have been caught up in some of this economic stuff over the past few years- job offshored several times, more unemployment than employment, totally trashed credit, hopelessly high debt from student loans for degree that never landed a job...
> 
> I figure that if I even try to go through the 'normal route' to a visa that my application will be laughed off of the table. But then there's another side that tells me that if a person was really successful at home it would actually give them less of a chance of succeeding in a foreign land. Whereas I feel the more different the land from my own, the better the chance that I'll succeed. And therefore they should actually let me in simply because I am such a miserable failure
> ...


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Amaslam,
Thanks for the reply. I've now read through most of the links in the 'sticky' section- good stuff. And I suppose it is good news to hear that they won't care about my credit and recent work (read: unemployment) background. A huge relief actually. But really not good news if Q3 will not work. I pretty much saw this as my only hope due to my lack of globally competitive skills. A non-programming QA background wouldn't actually still be considered a skill in Australia would it? 

BTW, what about the company sponsored visa? I think it was 457 or something. Couldn't I make some contacts, get a job there, and then get a visa on that? Maybe I don't understand this one correctly? 

Having been repeatedly offshored, one job after the next for 4 years now, I seriously doubt that I have the IT skills (without a degree and programming) to compete globally. Being an American these days actually is competing globally and look where that has gotten me. Which brings us to the education option. You mention coming in as a student then applying for PR. This sounds promising. Are there any schools, reasonably priced (for non citizens) that you can recommend? I have no idea how much I would have to save in advance for this option? Would this be my best chance? BTW, while studying, would I be able to take on any part time on-campus jobs or anything to mitigate the costs?

Lastly, Canada is out, but New Zealand sounds appealing. Seems that I read somewhere that NZ residents are allowed to work in Australia. Is this true? Maybe NZ is my 'back door' to Australia? In the end it's Melbourne where I am aiming to land. But I would be delighted to take advantage of a reasonably priced education in NZ if such a thing exists for foreigners?

As far as self esteem goes, you're totally correct. But I am sure that an affordable education (an oxymoron in my state) and having skills to compete in my field again would change all that. I can't imagine that anyone feels lower than the offshored and unemployable in the 'land of opportunity'. Esp when this country would rather wholesale send our jobs abroad than retrain our own people to compete. This country has gone downhill. But that's another story, and hopefully not my problem much longer... 

Thanks again for the thoughtful response,

Jeff


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

You could certainly make contacts, but that's not an easy task and takes time, also note you can not work here on any type of visitor visa (except Working Holiday Visa), most companies in AU will show you door as soon as you ask about something like that. The non-programming QA doesn't count as a skill. IT skill is some sort of specialisation these days (i.e. CISSP, Java, C#, SAP, Siebel) and then doing that professionally for 4 yrs at least. 

NZ Citizens can work in AU, but not NZ PRs. You might find you like NZ long enough to stay there 5 yrs and get NZ Citizenship, then you may come into AU at any time after that.

Company sponsored 457 is always an option, but again you must convince some company to pick you over both local AU candidates and other foreign candidates.

I don't know much about the Universities here but look at Google and search their websites. Alot of students in AU and they are concentrated in Brisbane, Sydney, and Melbourne. You can work part-time (upto 20 hrs per week) while a student. Also if you come in as a graduate student (i.e. Masters) I believe there are some student visas that don't have the 20 hour limit.

After reading up a bit on the visa types and then deciding on one course of action why don't you ask a migration agent about options. Usually first consultations are free.



TumblingDice said:


> Amaslam,
> Thanks for the reply. I've now read through most of the links in the 'sticky' section- good stuff. And I suppose it is good news to hear that they won't care about my credit and recent work (read: unemployment) background. A huge relief actually. But really not good news if Q3 will not work. I pretty much saw this as my only hope due to my lack of globally competitive skills. A non-programming QA background wouldn't actually still be considered a skill in Australia would it?
> 
> BTW, what about the company sponsored visa? I think it was 457 or something. Couldn't I make some contacts, get a job there, and then get a visa on that? Maybe I don't understand this one correctly?
> ...


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Company sponsored 457 is always an option, but again you must convince some company to pick you over both local AU candidates and other foreign candidates.


Just out of curiosity, if I was lucky enough to land a job this way, would my visa be priority processed under 457, or do companies with hired employees still have to wait the 6 to 18 months for the new hires to begin. Seems that 457 would happen much faster given that the candidate already has a job...



amaslam said:


> I don't know much about the Universities here but look at Google and search their websites. Alot of students in AU and they are concentrated in Brisbane, Sydney, and Melbourne. You can work part-time (upto 20 hrs per week) while a student. Also if you come in as a graduate student (i.e. Masters) I believe there are some student visas that don't have the 20 hour limit.


Nice! This seems like it might be a good route to get in the door, as long as schools don't cost a fortune as obviously I don't have it. At the very least I could finally be qualified for a job back home if when I graduate they give me the boot. Worthy of a separate thread/further research. Hopefully its not like American schools that often charge non citizens 6-10x as much.



amaslam said:


> After reading up a bit on the visa types and then deciding on one course of action why don't you ask a migration agent about options. Usually first consultations are free.


Another great tip. BTW can you refer a good agent? Is this someone in the Australian government with whom I can email?

Oh, BTW I think NZ is out as I am patient, but not 5 years patient.

Lastly, is the 4 years work experience rule waived for recent graduates in a field? Is the student route actually an easier/less stringent path to a visa or does a recent graduate from an Australian school have the same odds as someone applying from abroad. Does having lived and worked in Australia actually give better odds?

Thanks again,

Jeff


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Jeff:

1. Yes, 457 is priority processed, some have come through in a matter of weeks, but you have to be really on your game with the documentation to make that happen. 6 weeks is typical. As soon as it is approved and you get the sticker in your passport you may immediately start work.
2. The Unis do charge full fees but the fee levels aren't as high as the US. Also look at the AU TAFE system. This would be like a trade school in case you wanted to get certified in a trade (electrician, chef, plumber).
3. The 4 yr rule is for skilled visas, students don't have that requirement and use a different route to temporary then full PR visas. The main requirement is a degree/certificate in an AU University/College. You do get additional points for graduating from an AU institution. However no additional points are given for being in country.




TumblingDice said:


> Just out of curiosity, if I was lucky enough to land a job this way, would my visa be priority processed under 457, or do companies with hired employees still have to wait the 6 to 18 months for the new hires to begin. Seems that 457 would happen much faster given that the candidate already has a job...
> 
> 
> Nice! This seems like it might be a good route to get in the door, as long as schools don't cost a fortune as obviously I don't have it. At the very least I could finally be qualified for a job back home if when I graduate they give me the boot. Worthy of a separate thread/further research. Hopefully its not like American schools that often charge non citizens 6-10x as much.
> ...


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Amaslam,
Please see inline:



amaslam said:


> Hi Jeff:
> 1. Yes, 457 is priority processed, some have come through in a matter of weeks, but you have to be really on your game with the documentation to make that happen. 6 weeks is typical. As soon as it is approved and you get the sticker in your passport you may immediately start work.


Is there a list of all of the paperwork that will be required? I must have missed it in the stickies. Also, what is the typical route for the 457? As you mentioned, most jobs require a visa before even considering a candidate. So how does anyone get the 457?



amaslam said:


> 2. The Unis do charge full fees but the fee levels aren't as high as the US. Also look at the AU TAFE system. This would be like a trade school in case you wanted to get certified in a trade (electrician, chef, plumber).


Wow, yeah I see that most schools are in the $17-20 thousand range for foreigners, definitely too rich for my blood right now. I'll look into the TAFE schools, hopefully this will provide a reasonable alternative. 



amaslam said:


> 3. The 4 yr rule is for skilled visas, students don't have that requirement and use a different route to temporary then full PR visas. The main requirement is a degree/certificate in an AU University/College. You do get additional points for graduating from an AU institution. However no additional points are given for being in country.


Good stuff. Thanks again for the detailed responses. 
BTW, do the TAFE school degrees/certificates qualify for this path?


Jeff


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi:

There are two things for a 457:
1. Company decides to sponsor you so they file a form. Immi decides on that and returns an OK letter to the company that they can sponsor you.
2. You then apply for a 457 and attach that letter.

Often this 457 is used for intra-company transfers where there is already an office in AU and the company needs you in country quickly.

***
It is most similar to an H1B visa in the US.

***
PR Visas (175/176) are most similar to US Green cards.

***
TAFE certificates/degrees do qualify for the Temp visa --> PR route for students.

At this time the most of the students applying through this route are from China, Southeast Asia, and India.

Start at this link to get to the docs and rules for the 457:
Temporary Business (Long Stay) - Standard Business Sponsorship (Subclass 457)



TumblingDice said:


> Amaslam,
> Please see inline:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tilla_07 (Jan 13, 2009)

i remember checking out some unis like University of sydney and uni of melbourne, and i think I rem reading that you can have US FAFSA apply towards these schools. It might be worth it to check it out and see if that is the case and which schools will allow it. That will certainly take some of the costs out of your own pocket. Since you're a US citizen and youare wanting to go back to school, check out the US gov FAFSA site and see if they will pay or help for your schooling in foreign countries.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

tilla_07 said:


> i remember checking out some unis like University of sydney and uni of melbourne, and i think I rem reading that you can have US FAFSA apply towards these schools. It might be worth it to check it out and see if that is the case and which schools will allow it. That will certainly take some of the costs out of your own pocket. Since you're a US citizen and youare wanting to go back to school, check out the US gov FAFSA site and see if they will pay or help for your schooling in foreign countries.


I doubt that FAFSA will give you money if your plan is to stay in Australia. I'm pretty sure they would want you back in the US once they have paid for your education.

Regarding TAFE schools, one of the main ones in Melbourne is William Angliss, however you will find that International student fees for TAFE schools are also fairly high. For a 2 year Diploma course, expect to pay between 20-30K AUD.


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Actually they will, take a look at this link (Sallie Mae funds a large number of loans):
Loans for U.S. students studying outside the United States





matjones said:


> I doubt that FAFSA will give you money if your plan is to stay in Australia. I'm pretty sure they would want you back in the US once they have paid for your education.
> 
> Regarding TAFE schools, one of the main ones in Melbourne is William Angliss, however you will find that International student fees for TAFE schools are also fairly high. For a 2 year Diploma course, expect to pay between 20-30K AUD.


----------



## Apotheosis (Nov 7, 2008)

Mr. 8 ball allow me to offer my advice.

First of all...if you are trying to make this sort of move, then a negative disposition will get you nowhere fast.

I am 30 years old, in Miami, Florida and have yet to make this move, but it is on its way...been working out these details for almost a year now.

The one thing I have learned is to be as positive as possible...otherwise you will not make it through this process. Your post stinks of negativity, man, seriously. You should have a lot more confidence in your experience and abilities. I should know, I am in a VERY similar circumstance but I am extremely optimistic that I will have success in being accepted into Australia and have employment there. I am a business analyst in IT at a large international corporation and have my share of fears about moving/working down under. 

Every situation is different, of course...but you need higher self-confidence to be a successful person...this goes for any industry, actually...abroad or at home in America.

I think there is a tremendous amount of information to learn on this forum...the best, actually! I've been reading (and occasionally posting) for a few months now (I plan to make the big move in Dec 09 or Jan 2010) but I've also come to learn a lot about how internally I am processing the concept of moving to Australia. I firmly believe that the smallest amount of negativity can destroy everything. So my advice is this:

Start contacting any IT recruiting agency that may (or may not!) have work in Australia. Be yourself, it is so important! Communicate what you do well, and make it sound like it's amazing. The underlying sentiment that you need to communicate is that whatever company/organization you are contacting...they NEED you there. The way I look at it is this...what harm can it do??? We live in a world these days where all it takes is a good email. You can send dozens of emails per day if you're motivated enough. Surely someone will respond positively?? It's so easy for us to literally do what we want these days, including moving to the other side of the world. I am trying to do exactly the same, this is why I feel so passionate about the advice that I am giving. Look up some industries that you're interested in and send them a well-crafted email. If you are committed, you will find a way. From your posts it sounds like you already believe that. But no more complaining about yourself! 

And although no one else on this forum will say it...fark debt, fark student loans, fark other loans...no matter what, GO TO AUSTRALIA. Debt does not mean shiat! Get the holiday visa if all else fails. If you are good enough, someone will give you a job. I've come to find in my life that the unorthodox path is probably the right one. It is up to you and you alone to make your desires come true, no matter what your destination is.

There are definitely some wonderful people on this forum that have very logical advice for making your move, and I do not mean to discount anything that others have mentioned here. However, I hope that I can offer something different. I hope that I can help you realize that what is most important to do something like this is inside of you. No matter what obstacles are in front of you, none of them are a match for human intention. You just have to learn how to communicate that to the Australian organizations that quite possibly need you!

To me, it is very simple. It is up to you, and all the details that make us worry are just that...details. Like I said, my fate is still unknown. I'm still in Miami, trying to make this all happen...but I feel incredibly fortunate to understand the true mechanics of this process. And I am very confident that I will be living a a new and wonderful life with my girlfriend, cat and dog in Sydney in no time.

-Ryan


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Hi:
> 
> There are two things for a 457:
> 1. Company decides to sponsor you so they file a form. Immi decides on that and returns an OK letter to the company that they can sponsor you.
> ...


Research so far, not so good on finding affordable schools, so the 457 may just be my only longshot. Unless of course I save for a few years then go... Thanks for the info.



amaslam said:


> ***
> PR Visas (175/176) are most similar to US Green cards.
> 
> ***
> ...


Thanks for the link. A great read, esp, the Q&A in the end to illustrate scenarios if the 457 is revoked. If I cannot find an affordable school (how in the world to all of the Asians you mention afford this? Probably from wealthy families :confused2:

I'll have to start another thread 'affordable schools for foreigners' or something. Not that they are any more expensive than schools here in the US (for a white male, read: 'grant free') Geez I wish I was born anywhere else. Anyway, chin up and all, if I don't find an affordable school, its on a flight to Auzland to plead my case in person. I guess those are my bottom line options.

BTW, I recall a list of 'most in demand skills' MODL I think. Since I'm off of the list, does that affect the 457 as it does the 175/176? Maybe I'll take some job most Aussies don't want (?) As long as a company sponsors me I'm in right?

I'll be just fine if I can just get a start...


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

tilla_07 said:


> i remember checking out some unis like University of sydney and uni of melbourne, and i think I rem reading that you can have US FAFSA apply towards these schools. It might be worth it to check it out and see if that is the case and which schools will allow it. That will certainly take some of the costs out of your own pocket. Since you're a US citizen and youare wanting to go back to school, check out the US gov FAFSA site and see if they will pay or help for your schooling in foreign countries.


Not overlooking any possibility, I've followed up and filed the online application for the FAFSA today. I was told my expected family contribution was ten grand. What are these people smoking? Anyway, there is a Federal School Code that you have to input for all schools you are considering attending. I couldn't find the codes for any foreign schools at all. Any tips? I doubt that they will sponsor me to go to school in Australia, but it is certainly worth a follow up if such an opportunity exists. With my expected family contribution though, I'm not sure that this will actually matter in the end. The US would clearly rather offshore the jobs than retrain their own people to compete. My roommate is Hispanic and they are paying him $1600 a month to go to school. Go figure... Anyway, if you know the codes, please share!


----------



## Apotheosis (Nov 7, 2008)

Man, QA is no joke. I'm sure you have a sufficient amount of experience to get a job, you just need to find it!

I'm quite sure that the education route is not going to work for you...way too expensive! You have to look at that realistically...the Australian government will most likely give aid to Australian students. And FAFSA??? No way. Our government does not fund people that want to move to another country.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> I doubt that FAFSA will give you money if your plan is to stay in Australia. I'm pretty sure they would want you back in the US once they have paid for your education.
> 
> Regarding TAFE schools, one of the main ones in Melbourne is William Angliss, however you will find that International student fees for TAFE schools are also fairly high. For a 2 year Diploma course, expect to pay between 20-30K AUD.


William Angliss: $1-3 per 'student contact hour'. I have no idea about this system or how many of these hours would equal full time schooling for a year. Will research further. Thanks for the tip.

Jeff


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Actually they will, take a look at this link (Sallie Mae funds a large number of loans):
> Loans for U.S. students studying outside the United States


Hmm, tempting, but these are the *******s kept me in debt my whole life.
Sallie Mae is pure evil. Don't do it!
Truth in lending act doesn't apply.
They can attach your wages at any time WITHOUT A COURT ORDER, including times of disability, medical emergency, etc.
They are allowed to own their own collection agencies (unlike any other form of debt), to write off exorbitant collection fees, then wrap them all neatly back into your loan, from which even bankruptcy cannot give you relief.
Take Sallie Mae loans and you'd BETTER gamble correctly and make them pay or you'll wind up as screwed as me! Just a thought...

But again, thanks for the tip


----------



## Apotheosis (Nov 7, 2008)

TumblingDice said:


> Hmm, tempting, but these are the *******s kept me in debt my whole life.
> Sallie Mae is pure evil. Don't do it!
> Truth in lending act doesn't apply.
> They can attach your wages at any time WITHOUT A COURT ORDER, including times of disability, medical emergency, etc.
> ...


More complaints. Nobody wants a victim. Good luck.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Apotheosis said:


> Mr. 8 ball allow me to offer my advice.
> 
> First of all...if you are trying to make this sort of move, then a negative disposition will get you nowhere fast.
> 
> ...


Ryan,
Thanks for the post man.
Yeah you are totally right. My attitude is crap at this moment, emotions a whirlwind, some days better than others, but most of the time crap anymore. After a lifetime of reverse racism, I'm more interested in getting out of the US than actually into Australia. My expectations aren't high. Ha- I'd take a janitor job for a shot at an affordable education someday, and some peace of mind for retirement. And health care, oh, just imagine! I just figure anything is worth a shot at this point. And you're right, I've got to find some positive feelings to hold onto or this is all doomed from the beginning.

Like you said, you are a business analyst, employed with a major international firm. I'm an 'ex' in a field that is 'ex'. My last three jobs were offshored to Indians, while I worked I was surrounded by Indians who looked down their noses at me. I was considered seriously skilled at one point, told I was a 'rock star' by my ER rep, who handed me an employee recognition award, but I would be dreaming if I thought manual QA had any value to anyone today. So its hard after these experiences to sell my past to anyone with positive energy.

Thanks for the reminder. I'm sure you're right. This will in the end be my biggest challenge, and the real key to any new success. Easier said than done, but I'm working on it 

Jeff


----------



## tilla_07 (Jan 13, 2009)

no i dont know the FAFSA code. yes, going to school in AU is very expensive. Just one year alone will cost akin to going to an Ivy league school for one year in the US. but there are scholarships that you could try for. You wonder how so many Asians can go to school in AU. While some are financially well off, they also strive to get scholarships to pay for their schooling.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> After a lifetime of reverse racism, I'm more interested in getting out of the US than actually into Australia.


I'm sure being raised a white man in the land of opportunity has been a harrowing experience... lose the self pity. Indians didn't steal your jobs, it was the greedy white man who put you out of work, to increase company profits and line his own pockets. The asians aren't getting a free passes to AU schools, and the hispanics don't ALL get wheelbarrows full of cash to go to school in the US.

I hope you don't go to job interviews with that chip on your shoulder.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> I'm sure being raised a white man in the land of opportunity has been a harrowing experience... lose the self pity. Indians didn't steal your jobs, it was the greedy white man who put you out of work, to increase company profits and line his own pockets. The asians aren't getting a free passes to AU schools, and the hispanics don't ALL get wheelbarrows full of cash to go to school in the US.
> 
> I hope you don't go to job interviews with that chip on your shoulder.


You're right on one point, wrong on the other.
My attitude toward the US stinks, you're right, but I am very much positive about opportunities abroad. 

Respectfully, you are simply wrong that being a white male in America is an advantage. That is so 1960. White male is no advantage in America unless you are born into money, which I wasn't. For the lower classes, the only advantage that is real is Cash. Cash for education. Cash for companies to hire you and put you in a high level position. These are the only advantages that are real. Blacks, Hispanics, and women get it, white males do not. This isn't self pity, its the simple facts. There are lots of kinds of advantages, but none as strong as Cash.

Case in point: A wealthy black girl from my high school got a free ride to a university from which I was denied. I had a full grade point higher, more activities in school. In every way I worked harder and was better qualified. I wound up in a lower end school. Now that is real. My dad was a bus driver, her parents were both attorneys. She was hired by a company and placed in a high position straight out of college (despite her college performance) because companies get Cash from the federal government for hiring her over me. (I want to clarify that I am not racist and that she and I are still friends today). But this is what's real in America. I took a mountain of debt to get through school (that eventually led to my demise) and she got a free ride to the top. And yet I have to tolerate this generalized belief that being a white male from lower class is an advantage. With the current laws, and the way the Cash flows today, this dated white male advantage BS is simply absurd. There was never nor is there today any real advantage like Cash.

And respectfully I think you are wrong in not seeing that the factor that is keeping me out of work in IT now is Indian racism. They own the show now. They do the interviews (the last 15 that I've been on!). They totally look down their noses at white Americans (naturally) as they believe that they got the jobs because of their superiority. 
How many times did I walk into an interview (dozens) with an open/positive mind to look at a panel of Indians looking down their noses at me, knowing 1 minute into the interview that I didn't get the job...

Their racism is VERY real and shouldn't be discounted.

So ironic that I went into IT for the diversity. 
It is clearly no longer a diverse field.

But we are focusing on the wrong things here. 
And I am pretty sure you are getting me wrong. 
I put the details of my life in this thread so that I could get practical advice that would apply to my situation and challenges in moving abroad, very different from most expats who are going abroad on the heels of recent employment, financial backing, and success. My lack of these positive factors is dominant in determining the routes available to me, and if I am going to succeed in this venture of starting a new life, has got to be considered realistically. Getting useful advice is the only purpose of my making these statements. 

So let's focus not on why I am so very frustrated with the simply absurd degree of reverse racism in America, not why my attitude toward this country (that thinks this form of racism is right) has become crap, but rather why I'm so very determined and excited to be getting the h*** out! 

I know I am intelligent, and hard working, dedicated, driven, respectful, open minded, polite, well spoken and presented. I have a lot to offer! And in a different environment I'm pretty darn sure that I will shine. I get my foot in the door as a janitor, and someday I'll be a rock star again! In a place where I can feel good about where my tax money is going and what opportunities my future provides.

But all that said, I still agree you're right. My attitude is crap, and I need to focus not on the negative factors of why I'm leaving, but on the positive factors of what I'm going to. Not on the crap experiences behind, but on positive and exciting opportunities that lie ahead. I'm excited about the idea of someday qualifying for affordable education. I'm excited about a 'super' retirement plan. I'm excited about the peace of mind of having health care. Not to mention that I really actually kind of 'dig' the culture. Laid back, practical, self effacing, beer drinking, not so very material needing, football loving Aussies!

Now how's that for positive


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> So let's focus not on why I am so very frustrated with the simply absurd degree of reverse racism in America, not why my attitude toward this country (that thinks this form of racism is right) has become crap, but rather why I'm so very determined and excited to be getting the h*** out!
> 
> ...
> 
> How's that for positive


Affirmative actions goal is to restore some equality and quell the racism that has brewed in the US for far too long. Supposedly once a balance is reached and racism is no more, then there would be no need for affirmative action, and we would all be judged again based on merits. Idealistic, I know, but that's the current system. Will it work, I don't know? Unfortunately you seem to have been affected on several levels, with school and work, and left taking one for the team on affirmative action. I worry that you will not find a place to live in the western world that is not heading in the same direction with their policies. Maybe someone else on the forum can fill me in on Australia's policies regarding this.

Anyhow... as you said... time to get positive. I would highly recommend that you contact my migration agent, Peter, who assisted me with the filing of my ACS assessment. He specializes in ACS assessments and has a 100% record. He will be able to do a review of your skills and let you know if you will qualify for any particular skills and visa. His website is:

Ptlabs Consulting

He's a great guy, and will do all that he can to help you along with the process. Also, don't forgot, getting an AU permanent residency visa can be a time consuming task. Try not to get your hopes up about skipping the country in the next few months.

Mat


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Affirmative actions goal is to restore some equality and quell the racism that has brewed in the US for far too long. Supposedly once a balance is reached and racism is no more, then there would be no need for affirmative action, and we would all be judged again based on merits. Idealistic, I know, but that's the current system. Will it work, I don't know? Unfortunately you seem to have been affected on several levels, with school and work, and left taking one for the team on affirmative action. I worry that you will not find a place to live in the western world that is not heading in the same direction with their policies. Maybe someone else on the forum can fill me in on Australia's policies regarding this.
> 
> Anyhow... as you said... time to get positive. I would highly recommend that you contact my migration agent, Peter, who assisted me with the filing of my ACS assessment. He specializes in ACS assessments and has a 100% record. He will be able to do a review of your skills and let you know if you will qualify for any particular skills and visa. His website is:
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree that Affirmative Action was setup to stop racism, but I'm afraid it just fans the fire by reinforcing discrimination based upon race (whichever direction it's going, racism is racism), and by not having a financial need component it often favors people who had all the advantages in the first place, which of course leads to resentment and, yep- racism. Ugh. 

Yeah anyway, moving on 

So honestly I didn't even plan on taking the ACS. My job title was the bottom of the totem pole even before automation/offshoring made it redundant. Plus Amaslam said no way. Anyway functional QA Engineers or Manual Software Testers they used to call us. Though I was very good at it- you could say I made it to the top of my field, worked on some pretty big financial systems (at the time). So do you really think this guy can help someone with my background (no coding)? His record is compelling but his front page does say 'If you are Highly Skilled and wish to start a new life in Australia...' Hmm, dunno...

Also how much was the fee and how long did it take?
I appreciate the reference, just not sure if this will fit right now.

And I really wonder if I can apply just as easily from inside Australia. I definitely would like to just catch a flight now- book airfare this or next week, be on a flight in maybe 3-4 weeks. I've been sitting for months already, all the applications and interviews. Now I'm just eating into the startup money, so you know... Really need to go while I can. Not to mention just getting out, and getting this next chapter of life started will be the most healthy thing for me really- mind and body.

Thanks again for all the advice,

Jeff

BTW, an earlier question I never saw an answer to, if I get a company to sponsor me with a 457, does the job title have to be on MODL or could it be like- literally a janitor, manual labor, etc? Does it matter as long as a company is willing to sponsor? Pretty sure I can find 'some' kind of work, as long as it qualifies for the 457. Who cares what I do as long as I get the 'start over' started. As soon as I qualify for affordable education (PR down the road) I'll work my way back up. Is that a crazy plan or given my circumstances, actually the most practical?


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi:

For the 457 question it can be any job really (it won't be janitor as I'm sure they don't need to hire those). Employee Sponsorship is at the top of the priority list (above MODL and CSL priorities).

As for the skills assessment I think you can do it, but don't do it specifically for QA, see if it can succeed for another category. While I think you can get the general ACS assessment done I don't think you'll qualify for any of the MODL or CSL categories. This will put your processing time to at least 12 months. Asking the PTlabs person would really help there as he does this sort of thing professionally. Maybe I am wrong on the MODL+CSL points part of this.

While you are doing this exploration of locations, try checking out Canada or the UK as well. They have similar points systems but they may not have so many priority levels. 

And a US to Canada move may not be so tough as an Oz move and you will get many of the things you are seeking.

***
If you're really hooked on coming to the Southern Hemisphere don't discount New Zealand. 



TumblingDice said:


> Yeah I agree that Affirmative Action was setup to stop racism, but I'm afraid it just fans the fire by reinforcing discrimination based upon race (whichever direction it's going, racism is racism), and by not having a financial need component it often favors people who had all the advantages in the first place, which of course leads to resentment and, yep- racism. Ugh.
> 
> Yeah anyway, moving on
> 
> ...


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> So honestly I didn't even plan on taking the ACS. My job title was the bottom of the totem pole even before automation/offshoring made it redundant. Plus Amaslam said no way. Anyway functional QA Engineers or Manual Software Testers they used to call us. Though I was very good at it- you could say I made it to the top of my field, worked on some pretty big financial systems (at the time). So do you really think this guy can help someone with my background (no coding)? His record is compelling but his front page does say 'If you are Highly Skilled and wish to start a new life in Australia...' Hmm, dunno...


I really don't know too much about what your occupation entails and what specific skills you have. He may know off the top of his head, and may have filed paperwork on behalf of QA Engineers before. For his help with the application it cost me about $1000 AUD, but the initial assessment was relatively low, I think about $50 AUD. 



TumblingDice said:


> And I really wonder if I can apply just as easily from inside Australia. I definitely would like to just catch a flight now- book airfare this or next week, be on a flight in maybe 3-4 weeks.


I dont know if I would fly over there... it will probably be a wasted trip. I don't think people would be willing to hire you like that. Maybe do some online research with Australian Recruitment services and see if you find anything useful.





TumblingDice said:


> BTW, an earlier question I never saw an answer to, if I get a company to sponsor me with a 457, does the job title have to be on MODL or could it be like- literally a janitor, manual labor, etc? Does it matter as long as a company is willing to sponsor? Pretty sure I can find 'some' kind of work, as long as it qualifies for the 457. Who cares what I do as long as I get the 'start over' started. As soon as I qualify for affordable education (PR down the road) I'll work my way back up. Is that a crazy plan or given my circumstances, actually the most practical?


As amaslam said, it doesn't have to be MODL, but you have to find someone willing to go through the rigmarole of visa paperwork, so they must REALLY have to like you for that to happen. Also, if you do manage to get the 457 it is still only a temporary visa and you are tied to that employer. Your best bet is to try and get the best visa possible, which is your General Skilled Migration, and if that fails, work your way through trying for other visas.

Also, yes, look into Canada, UK, New Zealand too... another alternative would be early retirement in the bahamas


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Hi:
> 
> For the 457 question it can be any job really (it won't be janitor as I'm sure they don't need to hire those). Employee Sponsorship is at the top of the priority list (above MODL and CSL priorities).
> 
> ...


Amaslam,
Thanks again for the info.
I am pretty well set on Australia. It's not just the benefits (healthcare, 'super' retirement, public transportation) although these are huge to me, esp public transport as I cannot drive anymore, but also the culture and much better weather. Australia is definitely the goal.

I started another thread BTW and hopefully will find reasonably priced education for foreigners. Not an easy find in Australia it seems! I think they just assume foreign students are wealthy. Anyway, This route would be fantastic as I could up my technical skills and get back into IT and go for PR upon completion. But paying in the mean time- ouch! Well, we'll see, hopefully something shows up...

If there is no reasonably priced tech education to be had, I guess it is the 457 'Hail Mary' after all, though as I understand that helps me nothing in the long run as to get sponsored education I'll need for PR, I'll need PR. Bit of a Catch 22. 

I suppose I could stretch my skills to the limit and go for MODL. But I haven't given up on the reasonably priced education bit yet. BTW, don't they have a JR College concept in Australia? Or is that the TAFE system you mentioned before?

Jeff


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> I really don't know too much about what your occupation entails and what specific skills you have. He may know off the top of his head, and may have filed paperwork on behalf of QA Engineers before. For his help with the application it cost me about $1000 AUD, but the initial assessment was relatively low, I think about $50 AUD.


Did a little research on Peter and he does seem to know his stuff and be well referred. Suppose it wouldn't hurt to shoot him an email. His free initial consultation does require an awful lot of personal info though...



matjones said:


> I dont know if I would fly over there... it will probably be a wasted trip. I don't think people would be willing to hire you like that. Maybe do some online research with Australian Recruitment services and see if you find anything useful.


I know, this is a desperately long shot, but then I'm a desperate fellow 
BTW, did you mean Australian International Recruitment Services? Or just Australian Recruitment services in general IE headhunters/recruiters?




matjones said:


> As amaslam said, it doesn't have to be MODL, but you have to find someone willing to go through the rigmarole of visa paperwork, so they must REALLY have to like you for that to happen. Also, if you do manage to get the 457 it is still only a temporary visa and you are tied to that employer. Your best bet is to try and get the best visa possible, which is your General Skilled Migration, and if that fails, work your way through trying for other visas.
> 
> Also, yes, look into Canada, UK, New Zealand too... another alternative would be early retirement in the bahamas


General Skilled Migration, this is the 12+ month processing option Amaslam mentioned? I suppose anything that I have a real shot at (non-MODL)is going to be a year or more in waiting. In that case I might as well go for the 457 longshot, then hopefully save money for the fabulously overpriced (for foreigners) schooling, switch to a student visa, then use the recent grad to PR path that Amaslam mentioned earlier that didn't require work experience. 

That well hidden reasonably priced school (there must be one somewhere) would sure save me a load of pain.

Thanks again for your thoughts,

Jeff

BTW plz refresh me on New Zealand's reciprocity deal with Australia?


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Do a search on Trans Tasman travel Arrangement. 

Basically:
Citizens of AU and NZ can work and live in each others countries.
AU PRs can live and work in NZ
NZ PRs cannot live and work in AU





TumblingDice said:


> Did a little research on Peter and he does seem to know his stuff and be well referred. Suppose it wouldn't hurt to shoot him an email. His free initial consultation does require an awful lot of personal info though...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Do a search on Trans Tasman travel Arrangement.
> 
> Basically:
> Citizens of AU and NZ can work and live in each others countries.
> ...


Wow, no wonder the AU PR is so very much in demand.
It's like getting 2 for 1.
I was already set on AU, and this just reinforces my inclination as it provides an extra option.

------------------------

BTW, I found a program and a school!
Victoria University: ICA50505 

http://www.vu.edu.au/sites/default/files/mcd/pdfs/UGCourseGuide2010.pdf

If I understand correctly it is $8000 for the 1 year program, which is for a Diploma of IT Database Design and Development. Any thoughts? Will this qualify me for the path (Student to PR without work qualification) that we discussed? My concern is because it is only a one year program.

Also a bit of a concern that I'm not understanding the 'per hour' fee structure correctly, but hopefully these numbers are bottom line, ha- maybe it's '$20 grand for you my American friend'  Dunno, but it looks like 8 thousand AUD which sounds perfectly reasonable for a year of education.

http://www.vu.edu.au/sites/default/files/tafe/pdfs/Full fee course costs Diploma and above.pdf
http://www.vu.edu.au/courses/fees-and-scholarships/enrolment-fees-and-charges

Jeff


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Did a little research on Peter and he does seem to know his stuff and be well referred. Suppose it wouldn't hurt to shoot him an email. His free initial consultation does require an awful lot of personal info though...


Yes, the more he knows the more he can help you.




TumblingDice said:


> I know, this is a desperately long shot, but then I'm a desperate fellow
> BTW, did you mean Australian International Recruitment Services? Or just Australian Recruitment services in general IE headhunters/recruiters?


I just meant recruiters in general. You can also look on job posting boards in AU. Can't hurt to send in your resume if theres an opening your interested in. Worst they can do is say no.





TumblingDice said:


> That well hidden reasonably priced school (there must be one somewhere) would sure save me a load of pain.


We've been looking for that 'reasonably priced school' too, just in case something goes terribly wrong with our application and it is denied. We didn't find much, at least not in the melbourne area.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> If I understand correctly it is $8000 for the 1 year program, which is for a Diploma of IT Database Design and Development. Any thoughts? Will this qualify me for the path (Student to PR without work qualification) that we discussed? My concern is because it is only a one year program.


I don't think a 'Diploma' will get you into the IT Field, they really want people with degrees. I believe that is classified by ACS as 'associate' level and not professional level. 

When choosing a course it would be wise to look at what fields are in demand with high points on the SOL list. For example, one of the most popular TAFE courses the past few years has been the Pastry Chef course, as this is a 60pt professional and supposedly in demand. 




TumblingDice said:


> Also a bit of a concern that I'm not understanding the 'per hour' fee structure correctly, but hopefully these numbers are bottom line, ha- maybe it's '$20 grand for you my American friend'  Dunno, but it looks like 8 thousand AUD which sounds perfectly reasonable for a year of education.


$8000 for 1 year is not too bad. I'm not sure a 1 year course will put you in a good position for landing a job after your course is complete though. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Yes, the more he knows the more he can help you.
> 
> I just meant recruiters in general. You can also look on job posting boards in AU. Can't hurt to send in your resume if theres an opening your interested in. Worst they can do is say no.
> 
> We've been looking for that 'reasonably priced school' too, just in case something goes terribly wrong with our application and it is denied. We didn't find much, at least not in the melbourne area.


I've read some pretty good reviews about Peter, so I guess sending this scary amount of information over the web in one go is um OK...
A greater concern of mine is that his services, while highly recommended are far from cheap. Some reviewer said they paid him $3000. Wow. So this is just to help with the ACS certification? And this is only one of many steps, the smallest hurdle I understand in my situation. 

With regards to the school I'm only concerned that the program is good and prepares me well and that I qualify for the visa route of not having to have work experience. If I can get the visa, I can get the job. Get me in a different environment and I'm confident it will all come together. 

Actually I think it was Amaslam who told me about this route (?)

Jeff


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> I've read some pretty good reviews about Peter, so I guess sending this scary amount of information over the web in one go is um OK...
> A greater concern of mine is that his services, while highly recommended are far from cheap. Some reviewer said they paid him $3000. Wow. So this is just to help with the ACS certification? And this is only one of many steps, the smallest hurdle I understand in my situation.
> 
> With regards to the school I'm only concerned that the program is good and prepares me well and that I qualify for the visa route of not having to have work experience. If I can get the visa, I can get the job. Get me in a different environment and I'm confident it will all come together.
> ...



Looking back at my records, it looks like I paid $1900 AUD for assistance with the completion of my ACS RPL application. Peters help with the RPL was critical to my success. I felt overwhelmed when looking at what was required, and he broke it down and explained each step. He also reviewed what I wrote and made suggestions. After my success with the ACS I also used him to double check my visa application and make sure everything was in order. This was about $1000 AUD. All in all I feel it was money well spent otherwise I would have worried myself to death. The only other expense is the actual visa application fee which runs around $2000 AUD. So yes, it adds up, but is cheaper than paying for school again.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Looking back at my records, it looks like I paid $1900 AUD for assistance with the completion of my ACS RPL application. Peters help with the RPL was critical to my success. I felt overwhelmed when looking at what was required, and he broke it down and explained each step. He also reviewed what I wrote and made suggestions. After my success with the ACS I also used him to double check my visa application and make sure everything was in order. This was about $1000 AUD. All in all I feel it was money well spent otherwise I would have worried myself to death. The only other expense is the actual visa application fee which runs around $2000 AUD. So yes, it adds up, but is cheaper than paying for school again.


Yeah, suppose you're right.
I was going to file for his preliminary but his page has no https 

Wow, that's a lot of info to be giving the cable internet line in wide open plain text.
Emailed him to see if he'll give my 'case' a quick once over (in email). We'll see...
BTW I'm checking into yours and Amaslam's suggestion to look into New Zealand. 

I just want to get out now. Get some work/study going on. 
I didn't think just showing up and doing a 457 or something would be such a big deal. Maybe New Zealand will be a better fit for me, at least until I'm up on education/certs of some kind and back on my game. Kind of set on Australia, but definitely considering NZ at this point, esp if the process looks less painful.
Will keep posted, cause guaranteed, a few weeks down the road I'll be on a plane somewhere!

Thanks again for all the thoughts and ideas. You guys have been great.

Jeff


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Yeah, suppose you're right.
> I was going to file for his preliminary but his page has no https
> 
> Wow, that's a lot of info to be giving the cable internet line in wide open plain text.
> ...



How old r u btw? If you are under 30 you could do the 1 year working-holiday visa:

Work and Holiday Visa (Subclass 462)


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> How old r u btw? If you are under 30 you could do the 1 year working-holiday visa:
> 
> Work and Holiday Visa (Subclass 462)


Haha, wayyyy tooo old ;-)

That does look sweet though. Props for the idea. If I were younger no question I'd be on it.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Haha, wayyyy tooo old ;-)
> 
> That does look sweet though. Props for the idea. If I were younger no question I'd be on it.


Not over 45 are you?


----------



## Dolly (Feb 17, 2008)

Actually I'd say the skills assessment is the major part of the visa process....no positive skills assessment, no visa.

My eldest son is going to uni in February and is going to do a Bachelor of Computer Science degree....it will cost us around $15K per year for 3 years.....$8K is a walk in the park 

Dolly


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Not over 45 are you?


Um, why, does it matter?


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Dolly said:


> Actually I'd say the skills assessment is the major part of the visa process....no positive skills assessment, no visa.
> 
> My eldest son is going to uni in February and is going to do a Bachelor of Computer Science degree....it will cost us around $15K per year for 3 years.....$8K is a walk in the park
> 
> Dolly


Yeah, it sounded pretty good. But I'm not so sure the program would really be the best to eventually set me up with a visa and a job. It is looking more and more that New Zealand will be a better option for me. The visa looks much easier, University of Auckland is a great school, and once PR is established much less expensive than school in Australia. Plus I love to sail, and more outdoorsy environments, so I'm really wishing I'd looked into this more seriously when first recommended (earlier in the thread). Only downside is I have to start research over again. 

Education is #1 to me, and so far NZ is in the lead.
We'll see how the 'letter of intent' comes back


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Most AU PR visas have a maximum age of 44 and 364 days. On your 45th birthday you are no longer eligible to apply.

Now that you're looking seriously at NZ, I think their max PR age is 54 and 364 days.



TumblingDice said:


> Um, why, does it matter?


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Um, why, does it matter?


yes! For General Skilled Migration Visa must be under 45:

Skilled – Independent (Migrant) Visa (Subclass 175)

The 457 temporary work visa doesn't seem to mention age anywhere, so not sure how that works.

Mat


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

matjones said:


> yes! For General Skilled Migration Visa must be under 45:
> 
> Skilled – Independent (Migrant) Visa (Subclass 175)
> 
> ...


Oh... and if you're all out of luck on the work visa front:


Australian brides. Australian women seeking men


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

amaslam said:


> Most AU PR visas have a maximum age of 44 and 364 days. On your 45th birthday you are no longer eligible to apply.
> 
> Now that you're looking seriously at NZ, I think their max PR age is 54 and 364 days.


Highly relevant, and good to know.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Oh... and if you're all out of luck on the work visa front:
> 
> 
> Australian brides. Australian women seeking men



Haha, good one-

First I laughed, then I was like 'hey, why not?', then I clicked Melbourne and Belinda is the only option, then I clicked 'most active brides' and they were all from Russia, then I laughed again 

Still, I'm a single guy again, so joking aside, maybe this is a route to consider. The full new life package all bundled up.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Anyhow... as you said... time to get positive. I would highly recommend that you contact my migration agent, Peter, who assisted me with the filing of my ACS assessment. He specializes in ACS assessments and has a 100% record. He will be able to do a review of your skills and let you know if you will qualify for any particular skills and visa. His website is:
> 
> Ptlabs Consulting
> 
> ...


Had an email thread started with Peter.
Sent him my details in email, concerned that his web site was not secure.
Haven't heard back. I don't think he is interested in my case...

And seriously, while marriage is a viable option for visa I suppose, I just don't know if I want to marry under these terms/conditions. Moving on.

I'm thinking the earlier idea of going in with a student visa is the best for me. I need some hard facts on this- how much schooling will I have to take to get in (part time/full time?) and what schools qualify for the work/study visa (TAFE schools vs universities). And will certificates or just degrees be considered for approval in the route around background/employment qualification. And BTW what is this route specifically called anyway? I need an immigration specialist to be able to answer these questions definitively. Is there a contact in the Australian government who could answer this via email? Or an agent who won't charge an arm and a leg for a few basic questions like these?

Maybe I should give Peter more time?

---------
Side note on New Zealand option: I'd love to visit, maybe even study a while, but the life in Auckland appears dead compared to Melbourne. I'm afraid I'd be bored shortly. Though I'd rather be bored in NZ than terrified of my future in the US. I'll keep this as a last ditch option.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> And seriously, while marriage is a viable option for visa I suppose, I just don't know if I want to marry under these terms/conditions. Moving on.


Mostly joking on that one, however if you go to school there, who knows, you might meet the lady of your dreams 



TumblingDice said:


> I'm thinking the earlier idea of going in with a student visa is the best for me. I need some hard facts on this- how much schooling will I have to take to get in (part time/full time?) and what schools qualify for the work/study visa (TAFE schools vs universities). And will certificates or just degrees be considered for approval in the route around background/employment qualification. And BTW what is this route specifically called anyway? I need an immigration specialist to be able to answer these questions definitively. Is there a contact in the Australian government who could answer this via email? Or an agent who won't charge an arm and a leg for a few basic questions like these?


Any school that offers programs for 'International Students' will allow you to go there on the student visa. This can be a university of a TAFE school. The only thing to consider is the outcome once you have your new qualification. As I said before , plan ahead and choose a course of study that will land you best chances of getting a job once your done. The good thing about the student visas is that you have 18 months after you complete your course I believe, to stay in AU and work within the field you have trained to get experience.

Visa Options - Students - Visas & Immigration

I would advise calling the school that you are interested in and speaking with an international student adviser, you will find Aussie folks to be exceptionally friendly and helpful, unlike some here in the US  They will be able to answer all your questions. 



TumblingDice said:


> Maybe I should give Peter more time?


No harm in being prepared for alternatives, do your research on student visa's while you wait for Peter.



TumblingDice said:


> Side note on New Zealand option: I'd love to visit, maybe even study a while, but the life in Auckland appears dead compared to Melbourne. I'm afraid I'd be bored shortly. Though I'd rather be bored in NZ than terrified of my future in the US. I'll keep this as a last ditch option.


Yeah, I felt this way too. We fell in love with Melbourne, and moving to NZ would just not be an option, we would probably end up getting depressed having to wait all that time for our NZ citizenship so we could move to AU.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Mostly joking on that one, however if you go to school there, who knows, you might meet the lady of your dreams


Yeah you never know, of course I'm not going to 'bet' on it. But let's just say I found an Aussie bride, then what? Automatic PR? Citizenship? I have seen that with a student visa to bring a 'partner' over, they cold work full time if I'm in a postgraduate program, but you have to prove you've had a relationship over a year. Wouldn't be surprised if the same requirement held for marrying an Australian woman and getting a visa. Another one to throw in the queue for Peter.



matjones said:


> Any school that offers programs for 'International Students' will allow you to go there on the student visa. This can be a university of a TAFE school. The only thing to consider is the outcome once you have your new qualification. As I said before , plan ahead and choose a course of study that will land you best chances of getting a job once your done. The good thing about the student visas is that you have 18 months after you complete your course I believe, to stay in AU and work within the field you have trained to get experience.
> 
> Visa Options - Students - Visas & Immigration


Maybe I'm missing it, but I've looked a few times through the link provided and don't see where it says you can stay after graduation. Can you refer me more specifically? If getting a TAFE certification would provide this benefit guaranteed, I'd probably just do it. Plz show me specifically, otherwise another for Peter's stack.



matjones said:


> I would advise calling the school that you are interested in and speaking with an international student adviser, you will find Aussie folks to be exceptionally friendly and helpful, unlike some here in the US  They will be able to answer all your questions.


I've sent a few emails to departmental contacts at the University of Melbourne, but its been 3-4 days and no reply. In contrast, the University of Auckland has responded three times since. I'll try to avoid jumping to conclusions...

By the way can you recommend any other reputable immigration services I can check with? I did finally get a response from Peter Chiem but he just basically just gave a 'no comment' said my information was too general and that generally I was correct in my assumptions. Hmm. So I sent him ALL of my personal info, resume, reasons for wanting to move to Australia, personal background, address, phone, a blood sample, etc. Hopefully get some specific answers to these specific questions. 

Again, any other good immigration agents who can clarify these concerns for sure? I'm getting REALLY antsy to nail down a plan and go.


----------



## amaslam (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi TD:

Here's the PR visa:
Skilled – Independent (Residence) visa (subclass 885)

If you marry an AU Citizen you can get PR via a Spouse Visa.

Some agents post to these forums, so get their addresses from a search on these usernames:
SOMV
Allan Collet

Note, you still need to pass a points test, so choose a course that maximises your points and if possible is on CSL and MODL lists of priority. This gives you the best chance to get PR when applying for the 885.

Also since you already have a US degree it's worth asking if you can use some that to credit some of the AU courses (i.e. do you need to take 1st year English again?). Or you could go straight for grad school, or the TAFE route.

The International Student offices are the best resource to explore all your available options for a course. You can be open that you intend to go for PR afterwards and they may have some good suggestions for you.



TumblingDice said:


> Yeah you never know, of course I'm not going to 'bet' on it. But let's just say I found an Aussie bride, then what? Automatic PR? Citizenship? I have seen that with a student visa to bring a 'partner' over, they cold work full time if I'm in a postgraduate program, but you have to prove you've had a relationship over a year. Wouldn't be surprised if the same requirement held for marrying an Australian woman and getting a visa. Another one to throw in the queue for Peter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Yeah you never know, of course I'm not going to 'bet' on it. But let's just say I found an Aussie bride, then what? Automatic PR? Citizenship? I have seen that with a student visa to bring a 'partner' over, they cold work full time if I'm in a postgraduate program, but you have to prove you've had a relationship over a year. Wouldn't be surprised if the same requirement held for marrying an Australian woman and getting a visa. Another one to throw in the queue for Peter.



Yes, they generally require some kind of 'proof' of relationship. Check this out.

Evidence of Dependency





TumblingDice said:


> Maybe I'm missing it, but I've looked a few times through the link provided and don't see where it says you can stay after graduation. Can you refer me more specifically? If getting a TAFE certification would provide this benefit guaranteed, I'd probably just do it. Plz show me specifically, otherwise another for Peter's stack.


Making me work hard for you on this aren't you 

Skilled – Graduate (Temporary) visa (subclass 485)




TumblingDice said:


> I've sent a few emails to departmental contacts at the University of Melbourne, but its been 3-4 days and no reply. In contrast, the University of Auckland has responded three times since. I'll try to avoid jumping to conclusions...


If you emailed department heads for specific courses your interested in then expect a slower response. You should be speaking with the international student advisors. Again, sign up for a good international phone plan with you telephone company and call, you will get all your questions answered quicker and in one go.



TumblingDice said:


> By the way can you recommend any other reputable immigration services I can check with? I did finally get a response from Peter Chiem but he just basically just gave a 'no comment' said my information was too general and that generally I was correct in my assumptions. Hmm. So I sent him ALL of my personal info, resume, reasons for wanting to move to Australia, personal background, address, phone, a blood sample, etc. Hopefully get some specific answers to these specific questions.


I did the same for another migration agent and it cost me $300 for the assessment, so just be happy its free with Peter. I trust him fully, and know your private info is in safe hands.



TumblingDice said:


> Again, any other good immigration agents who can clarify these concerns for sure? I'm getting REALLY antsy to nail down a plan and go.


I forgot the name of the other agent I used, it was 2 years ago, and at that point I didn't qualify for a visa.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Mat,
Hey sorry for the late response. 
Took off camping for a few days. Had to clear the old mind you know...
Plus Seattle summer lasts about 18 hours so get it while you can!




matjones said:


> Yes, they generally require some kind of 'proof' of relationship. Check this out.
> 
> Evidence of Dependency


Interesting read. Guess I can't just take some random person along and call them a 'partner'. Oh well, no worries.



matjones said:


> Making me work hard for you on this aren't you
> 
> Skilled – Graduate (Temporary) visa (subclass 485)


Yeah, thanks I totally missed that one. So apparently the TAFE schools qualify but it has to be at least a TWO YEAR program and the visa is only granted upon completion. Haha- so what's the cheapest two year program? 



matjones said:


> If you emailed department heads for specific courses your interested in then expect a slower response. You should be speaking with the international student advisors. Again, sign up for a good international phone plan with you telephone company and call, you will get all your questions answered quicker and in one go.


Great idea. Thanks!
Still haven't heard back from the Australian schools so I guess I'll have to call.
So I'm getting a Skype account. In theory if I've got a 'hotspot' for wifi then I've got phone. My cel. provider wants mega $$ per minute for out of country so hopefully this works OK. I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

BTW, also considering using this as an inexpensive phone while abroad. Any thoughts?



matjones said:


> I did the same for another migration agent and it cost me $300 for the assessment, so just be happy its free with Peter. I trust him fully, and know your private info is in safe hands.
> 
> I forgot the name of the other agent I used, it was 2 years ago, and at that point I didn't qualify for a visa.


Yeah I'm very much hoping to hear back from him. Still could really use another alternative in case I don't. I'm just burning time and money now, but hopefully this call tomorrow will nail a few things down. BTW, I'm really leaning now on New Zealand as a point of entry. I'd love to see the country and maybe get my education there for a year or so, use it as a home base from which to visit Australia on a tourist visa. Who knows I may love it and decide to stay. Still, I'm leaning toward Australia long term, and after I have an education (my biggest priority!) I'll just have more options available. Plus New Zealand has surfing, snowboarding, and sailing, so it really can't be too bad ;-)


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> Plus Seattle summer lasts about 18 hours so get it while you can!


Sounds like San Francisco Summers... I blinked and missed the last one.




TumblingDice said:


> Oh well, no worries.


I see your practicing the lingo already!




TumblingDice said:


> Yeah, thanks I totally missed that one. So apparently the TAFE schools qualify but it has to be at least a TWO YEAR program and the visa is only granted upon completion. Haha- so what's the cheapest two year program?


Looks like you found one of the cheapest at around $8000 per year.




TumblingDice said:


> My cel. provider wants mega $$ per minute for out of country so hopefully this works OK. I'll give it a shot tomorrow.


You don't have a land line? 



TumblingDice said:


> BTW, also considering using this as an inexpensive phone while abroad. Any thoughts?


Whether your phone works, depends on the frequencies it runs on. We just purchase a cheapo phone once we got there, with a pay as you go card that we refilled at corner markets along the way. Surprisingly it was actually cheaper to make international calls back to the US than it was calling nationally within AU.





TumblingDice said:


> BTW, I'm really leaning now on New Zealand as a point of entry. I'd love to see the country and maybe get my education there for a year or so, use it as a home base from which to visit Australia on a tourist visa. Who knows I may love it and decide to stay. Still, I'm leaning toward Australia long term, and after I have an education (my biggest priority!) I'll just have more options available. Plus New Zealand has surfing, snowboarding, and sailing, so it really can't be too bad ;-)


Whatever works for you I suppose, might be worth exploring job situation in both places, so you have best odd possible of landing a job once you finish your schooling.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> I see your practicing the lingo already!


I think this one is more SoCal than Australia, though I could be wrong...



matjones said:


> Looks like you found one of the cheapest at around $8000 per year.


Yeah, the TAFE schools may be the cheapest, but unfortunately classes do not transfer to universities EG University of Melbourne. And they seem awfully 'padded' with 'learn how to talk to people' coursework, and have far too little core programming IMO. I've looked at all of them (in Victoria) now and not really impressed with any. It would basically just be buying my way into the country and wasting a few years of time. And besides the 2 years of study requirement to get the 18 month work visa, there is another catch- you have to come into the country with enough money to support yourself and pay for all of your schooling. A pretty big up front cash requirement basically. Still this may be my only option, and if so, it will require me to work longer here in the US and save. Ugh, I want out now...



matjones said:


> You don't have a land line?


Nope.
But I did discover a calling plan for $4 a month that allows for 8c calls to Australia and 7c to New Zealand, so problem solved.



matjones said:


> Whether your phone works, depends on the frequencies it runs on. We just purchase a cheapo phone once we got there, with a pay as you go card that we refilled at corner markets along the way. Surprisingly it was actually cheaper to make international calls back to the US than it was calling nationally within AU.


I was thinking about this option. Do you remember how much the pay as you go cost per minute? Was it like dollars or more like cents? Unbelievable how much it costs to take my cell phone there.



matjones said:


> Whatever works for you I suppose, might be worth exploring job situation in both places, so you have best odd possible of landing a job once you finish your schooling.


Yep, I've been applying on both fronts, Australia and New Zealand.
No bites yet, see beginning of this thread for why 
Also, trying to think of a way of asking if their IT industry is totally over run by racially discriminating Indians as ours is, without pushing any racist buttons. Just looking for the facts.

Read an article about a politician in Auckland who feels they should stop taking visa applications from India as locals are starting to feel discrimination in the work place. Maybe the fact that he can talk about this problem openly is actually a good sign for New Zealand. Although I have no idea how far it has gone there vs. here.


----------



## matjones (Jan 30, 2009)

TumblingDice said:


> I think this one is more SoCal than Australia, though I could be wrong...
> And besides the 2 years of study requirement to get the 18 month work visa, there is another catch- you have to come into the country with enough money to support yourself and pay for all of your schooling. A pretty big up front cash requirement basically. Still this may be my only option, and if so, it will require me to work longer here in the US and save. Ugh, I want out now...


Some good news for you on this one, certain low risk countries, one of which is the US, you only need to "declare" on your application that you have the money. No proof required.

Higher Education Sector: Temporary Visa (Subclass 573) - Assessment Level 1




TumblingDice said:


> I was thinking about this option. Do you remember how much the pay as you go cost per minute? Was it like dollars or more like cents? Unbelievable how much it costs to take my cell phone there.


Pre-Paid Mobile Phones - Call Rates - Telstra


----------



## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

Also, trying to think of a way of asking if their IT industry is totally over run by racially discriminating Indians as ours is, without pushing any racist buttons. Just looking for the facts.

Read an article about a politician in Auckland who feels they should stop taking visa applications from India as locals are starting to feel discrimination in the work place. Maybe the fact that he can talk about this problem openly is actually a good sign for New Zealand. Although I have no idea how far it has gone there vs. here. 

The fact that you have made such comments indicates to me that you are definitely a racist. We all now live in a global city, so no matter where you go to live you will meet peoples of many colours and shades. Get used to it or go live in a cave.
If you make any more such comments on this site I will close you down.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

matjones said:


> Some good news for you on this one, certain low risk countries, one of which is the US, you only need to "declare" on your application that you have the money. No proof required.


Higher Education Sector: Temporary Visa (Subclass 573) - Assessment Level 1

Good news for once- this is fantastical 
I always thought that you should be able to show up with enough to pay school fees and get by for say 6 months. After all, with a 20 hour per week work visa, this would certainly supplement, esp in a country with a $14/hour (read: wow!) minimum wage. A person could take practically any job and get by.
Thanks again Mat, you've been awesome.
And I was ready for some good news...

Pre-Paid Mobile Phones - Call Rates - Telstra[/QUOTE]

Hmm, looks like $$ for a cel phone in Aussieland, must still be a status symbol down under. 30c per 30 second part on up. Well I'll still need one for emergencies so good to know- thx.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Auld Yin said:


> Also, trying to think of a way of asking if their IT industry is totally over run by racially discriminating Indians as ours is, without pushing any racist buttons. Just looking for the facts.
> 
> Read an article about a politician in Auckland who feels they should stop taking visa applications from India as locals are starting to feel discrimination in the work place. Maybe the fact that he can talk about this problem openly is actually a good sign for New Zealand. Although I have no idea how far it has gone there vs. here.
> 
> ...


Not to be 'argumentative' but you have thrown out a rather large accusation there so just to say you are wrong. I am NOT a racist. I am sorry if you took it as such. It is merely the facts of my job search as I see them and we need not discuss it any further. Again apologies if you took my concern for my future work environment offensively. Have a nice day.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

Just to avoid any confusion in the future, please remember that I am an American who has traveled and worked abroad for many years. I have always tried to be open to other cultures, to absorb myself in the local environment as much as possible. I've always tried to not act like the typical rich tourist, pointing, judging, bringing America with me abroad. 

While in college I worked with AIESEC and found jobs for several foreigners- mostly from Eastern and Northern Europe. AIESEC had a cool philosophy, that if young people from foreign countries knew one another and lived with one another, then those two countries would be that much farther from ever going to war. Pretty cool idea and I'm still all behind it. On my work experience in Asia, I was sent home by the government since the economy was doing poorly. I never had a problem with this. It seemed common sense to me that a country under a stressful economy should engage policies to employ its own people first. So you can imagine the irony as I see it to come home, have our economy go bad, and to have my job off shored as a solution.

I've created a new signature just so we can keep in mind in the frustration that I'm feeling in what is happening at home to me personally, what my goal always was, and the very reason that I went into IT- diversity. I've always backed it and always will. I have always had an interest in foreign cultures and always will. And despite the increasingly strong pressures that I'm feeling to lose sight of those values that I refuse to cave in. I refuse to judge any individual by the color of their skin, no matter what my last 15 interviews looked like. I judge one person at a time by what is in their heart and mind and that is all. 

And that is why I've added a signature so we don't lose track in the inherent frustration of some of these discussions about why I feel strongly that there are better opportunities for me abroad- where I hope that I am not judged by the color of my skin or national background, and where I hope to once again find a truly diverse culture- with no racial or other bias whatsoever- where each person (myself included) has an equal shot at the school, the job, everything. It is my hope that someday nobody will have to feel like the 'odd man out' because of the color of the skin of the people in the room. We all have our ideals. Those are mine. 

Peace.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

OK, this one is better


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

No word back from Peter C yet. 

He's either insanely busy (possible) or really just doesn't want a case with my odds. Or maybe there's something else...

His web page makes it pretty clear that he's looking for people on the top of their game, not someone who's last several jobs were off shored. Besides, talking about the downsides and the costs to families like mine who have lost everything due to the corporate off shoring agenda is not so popular in these crowds. Go figure...
(haha- duh)

People might make assumptions, the might feel that describing my personal loss is somehow a threat or an attack on them, they might feel the need to attack back, or they might just ignore your application. Probably best next time just not to mention the factors that led to my job loss, home loss, life loss...

After all, record numbers of people are very much enjoying the current state of politics in North America. As most 'western' countries in the past couple of years cut back substantially on foreign visa allocations, to prioritize employing their own people during these hard economic times, most people enjoying a foreign work experience today, have a sweet safety net back home. Should they lose their job abroad, they could always go back home and have their job legally protected from foreign competition. Nice! And of course, who could argue with that logic?

And why should my country put my interests first anyway? Why should my country act like literally every other and protect its own people first. I mean hey- I only paid the taxes for 30 years to build this place. But whatever, its a new global country and belongs to everyone now. Clearly I need to lose those old school capitalist beliefs about having a stake in what I've worked and paid for. I just need to find a way to be happy about all of this. 

The world is changing (well OK, not the world really as again they are all protecting their own labor pools this year) but my country is changing. And its good for corporate profits so that's good for everyone. Ugh.

At the very least, I need to not talk about all the costs, the destroyed lives, in the 'wrong' crowds. Esp with so many people who are actually quite thrilled with the state of our country's laws, and for whom it is actually working out quite nicely at the moment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So to start over on a new positive bent, without thinking about my recently devastated life, on a new and positive outlook I think I need a new consultant. 
One who doesn't need to know the details of my loss. I'll tell him I love globalization and I'm looking forward to experiencing its positive aspects. I'll focus on the cultural aspects and ignore the personal financial aspects, as the latter of which would naturally make any rational person hearing my story most certainly feel that I must be filled with hate. Probably any other person on the planet who had gone through what I have, would be a complete hater by now. No question. It would only be human.

And yes, if I am completely honest, it is work not to become a hater in my position. Even with my background, the nationalities of my best friends, and the places on the planet where I have had my best life experiences- regardless, its still a very real effort to rise above this.

But I have to. I have no choice. 
I cannot even think about the past couple of years can I?

I have to focus on the positive opportunities that globalization has provided for me to start a new life. 
But wait. 
Every country outside of North America is dramatically cutting back on visas this year. 
But I thought this global thing was supposed to be a two way road, open to everyone?
Note to self: Stay Positive, Stay Positive, Stay Positive...

I no longer need help with visa details. 
I need to figure out how to look at this whole thing in a positive light, when our team is playing football uphill...
--------------------------------

If you respond to this, please refrain from attacks no matter how tempting.
Try to see the reality of the experiences I've been handed here, even if they are not true for your life. Step back, take a breath, and think about how you would feel. Then think of a response that you think might be of some positive use. I need positive energies right now. And believe me- it ain't easy.


----------



## tilla_07 (Jan 13, 2009)

You know I would have had more sympathy for you if you had actually sounded sincere and had not used this board to bash foreigners every chance you have gotten (wait, its not all foreigners, but Indians, you are bashing). 

One you talk about how the western countries have pulled back giving visas to foreigners (which is a bad thing for the foreigners, if you cannot tell) and then you turn around and say that oh, they have a safety net so they are actually luckier. Guess what? Your country is protecting your job by not giving them to the foreigners anymore. So, those foreigners who are the first in line to lose their hard earned jobs since they are on a visa and are not natives will have to leave and there is not a damn thing they can do about it. They will not get to sit in their homes all day long collecting unemployment benefits and making excuses for their unfortunate state so yes, they will have to go back to their country. But you are having an issue with that too since well, those people are going back to work in their own country. I doubt you would want those foreigners to stay in the good ol' US of A and eating up your employment benefits but it's outrageous that they would go back to their nation and try to make a living so they can survive. In other words, only the western countries can have protectionism laws when it comes to jobs, but not the rest of the world. 

Perhaps you have had bad experiences with some companies not hiring you and you have blamed it on the "Indians" not hiring you, a white man (who of course should always be considered first in the hiring process since hey, the skin color man, its just too awesome to ignore even with all those browns and yellows and blacks and pinks out there who have phds and masters and mbas and work experience to back up their getting hired). 

Let me tell you why. You may have experience, but they are obscure and your lack of education in the field tells me that you have no knowledge about the latest technology or programming skills needed to stay on top of your game. You want to go to school in AU b/c you heard it is cheap. It's great that you want to try for that since AU has good education and great unis but your reasoning that you cannot get a scholarship since you are facing reverse discrimination from the US government because you are not a minority is BS. In this economy, it is actually the perfect time to get back to school since the government is actually giving money to adults to get higher degrees, not to mention the unis and colleges. You are not desperate enough. Try going to school that is out of your 'whites only' thinking. There are lots of scholarships out there in unis where whites are the minority but then again, why would you go there since you are trying to escape from all colors other than white. 

Repeatedly there have been people here who have tried to help you, but for one am tired of hearing that the color of one's skin should be given preference over one's experience and qualities and education. You talk about globalization and how its not a two-way street. Where exactly are you even trying to go where you are not allowed to go? in many of the brown-skined countries, foreigners (esp. white so good news for you) are treated like royalty and are given perks to work in their companies, even in this economy. People with zero skills other than the fact that they have a passport from an english speaking country and look white are getting jobs in countries as an English instructor while more qualified, highly educated/experienced people are not since they lack the skin color and the passport that is oh-so-desired. 

You want to talk about life loss. let's talk about it. let's talk about how there are people in the usa who have worked for the same company for more than 30 years, generations of their family have worked there, but are now out of work since the factory is moving. They have lost everything, their homes, their cars, their livelihood. They are not complaining that the Indians have come and taken their jobs away. They are complaining that they have lost their jobs to overseas but guess what? Their company did not move to india or china but to an Eastern European country. So will you now bash the Eatern Europeans as well? 

There are very few who have not ben affected by this economy and the dire state the world is in right now. But one thing I would like to point out is that, it was not the Indians or the Chinese or the Ozzies whose economy was responsible for the crash of the world's market. it was the USA whose banks/corporate world that did this and since USA is the top nation in the world, many countries that were directly connected to it or depended on it faced the same fate or worse. Whether its Canada or Japan, people were affected greatly by the recession and every Tom, Dick, and Harry were affected by it in some form or other. The difference between them and you is that they are not blaming the Indians for their situation but actually trying their damndest to survive.

I apologize to the mods and to the owner of this board if I have stepped out of line and said anything that is hurtful to anyone. But I could not just sit back and not respond to these allegations when there are two sides to every story and only one side is being spoken and heard by everyone. No matter the experience everyone has had in this board regarding discrmination in the workplace or on the street, I think we can all agree that it is wrong and should not be encouraged.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

*Unbelievable You Can Get Away With Saying These Things...*



tilla_07 said:


> You know I would have had more sympathy for you if you had actually sounded sincere and had not used this board to bash foreigners every chance you have gotten (wait, its not all foreigners, but Indians, you are bashing).


Please provide evidence to support this attack on my character. If I had made such a statement then I would certainly be censored by the non-sympathetic moderators as 'argumentative'. At no time did I attack the character of any Indian or Indians in general. Please support or remove this baseless accusation.



tilla_07 said:


> One you talk about how the western countries have pulled back giving visas to foreigners (which is a bad thing for the foreigners, if you cannot tell) and then you turn around and say that oh, they have a safety net so they are actually luckier.


Again, please do not put words in my mouth. Please support your statement or remove it. I said all countries are pulling back giving visas and the example I gave was actually an Asian country removing visa support for westerners. 



tilla_07 said:


> Guess what? Your country is protecting your job by not giving them to the foreigners anymore.


Again, please provide supporting evidence that America is decreasing visas to foreigners. Last I heard it was an all time high this year and Mr. Gates is a major driving force in importing more foreigners to replace Americans. If this has all changed recently, please provide supporting evidence. Otherwise, I'm sorry but your statement is completely untrue. I could have missed some major change very recently, so again I'm more than happy to give you the chance to support your claim.



tilla_07 said:


> They will not get to sit in their homes all day long collecting unemployment benefits and making excuses for their unfortunate state so yes, they will have to go back to their country.


So Americans on unemployment today are just 'making excuses' to 'sit in their homes all day long'? Must be nice to not be censored for such an unfounded, argumentative and frankly outrageous statement given the state of our economy. Shows what you really think of us Americans as we come in for an interview...



tilla_07 said:


> But you are having an issue with that too since well, those people are going back to work in their own country. I doubt you would want those foreigners to stay in the good ol' US of A and eating up your employment benefits but it's outrageous that they would go back to their nation and try to make a living so they can survive.


Again, please provide evidence to your claim that foreigners are being sent home this year. I have seen no decrease in foreign visas to support the people who paid taxes all their lives to build this country. If the American government is now supporting its own people over foreigners I'd love to hear about it. Not being facetious. Literally I am curious how can support this claim?



tilla_07 said:


> In other words, only the western countries can have protectionism laws when it comes to jobs, but not the rest of the world.


Totally the opposite of what is really happening. If you had read the entire thread which I am now really suspecting you did not, then you would see I was sent home from Asia so they could employ their own people first, only to come home and have visas given to foreigners to replace me. So no, your statement is not what I have said at all so again, please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. All I would like to see is America support its own people the same way that Asia supports theirs, nothing more. 



tilla_07 said:


> Perhaps you have had bad experiences with some companies not hiring you and you have blamed it on the "Indians" not hiring you, a white man (who of course should always be considered first in the hiring process since hey, the skin color man, its just too awesome to ignore even with all those browns and yellows and blacks and pinks out there who have phds and masters and mbas and work experience to back up their getting hired).


This is a completely racist statement 'the skin color is too awesome to ignore'. This shows that you feel the only thing going for Americans who have been replaced by foreigners is their skin color. I protest! This truly shows what you think of us Americans! Esp when we are sitting in an interview. And how racist to say that 'browns, yellows, and blacks' are better educated. Some totally racist statements you are making there.



tilla_07 said:


> Let me tell you why. You may have experience, but they are obscure and your lack of education in the field tells me that you have no knowledge about the latest technology or programming skills needed to stay on top of your game.


And now you are attacking me personally. Simply assuming that I do not have a competitive skill set. Again, you are making some pretty lofty and outrageous statements there. Dare I say 'Argumentative'. If I had said anything like that about you, you'd see another censored post...



tilla_07 said:


> You want to go to school in AU b/c you heard it is cheap. It's great that you want to try for that since AU has good education and great unis but your reasoning that you cannot get a scholarship since you are facing reverse discrimination from the US government because you are not a minority is BS.


Really? So you know all about Affirmative Action in American schools? And what it is like to have people with a full grade point lower accepted to a program from which you are denied? And then given a full ride while you have to pay 100%? Clearly you know nothing about this and what a massive factor it happens to be in denying an affordable education to a person who happens to be white and male. Until you have been a full grade point higher and denied, you really don't know what you are talking about here. No Americans are denying the power of Affirmative Action in the Education system today. Nobody questions what it does. This is not even a discussion in my country. Nobody questions that it exists and the tremendous power it exerts. The discussion is whether or not it is still relevant and whether or not it is RIGHT.


----------



## TumblingDice (Jun 13, 2009)

tilla_07 said:


> In this economy, it is actually the perfect time to get back to school since the government is actually giving money to adults to get higher degrees, not to mention the unis and colleges. You are not desperate enough. Try going to school that is out of your 'whites only' thinking.


Again, I cannot believe such a racist assault was allowed by the moderators! Whites only!? You have no right to make such a baseless attack on my character! By the way please tell me in detail of which programs you speak. I just attended a paying for college seminar at the Workforce office on Thursday. You have no idea the efforts I've gone through or how many applications I have put in and received literally nothing. Yet you are happy to make these baseless claims.



tilla_07 said:


> There are lots of scholarships out there in unis where whites are the minority but then again, why would you go there since you are trying to escape from all colors other than white.


Again, racist attacks on my character. Totally unfounded. You are out of line!



tilla_07 said:


> Repeatedly there have been people here who have tried to help you, but for one am tired of hearing that the color of one's skin should be given preference over one's experience and qualities and education.


And yet another racist statement. If you had read the thread I said Americans should be given preference because they have paid taxes to build this country their whole lives and YES I stand by that. This is OUR country and it has nothing to do with color of skin so I'll appreciate very much if you kindly stop making these racist accusations.



tilla_07 said:


> You talk about globalization and how its not a two-way street.


Yes. Exactly. It is not a two way street for Americans...



tilla_07 said:


> Where exactly are you even trying to go where you are not allowed to go?


Well to Asia for one. The Philippines has no visas for Americans right now unless they can prove that they are 'vital to the survival of the company as a going concern'. In other words, if you are not VP or higher, your company has to go WAY out on a limb to keep an American on board right now. I'm glad you asked...



tilla_07 said:


> in many of the brown-skined countries, foreigners (esp. white so good news for you) are treated like royalty and are given perks to work in their companies, even in this economy. People with zero skills other than the fact that they have a passport from an english speaking country and look white are getting jobs in countries as an English instructor while more qualified, highly educated/experienced people are not since they lack the skin color and the passport that is oh-so-desired.


Wow, yet again! What a totally racist statement! Again, you clearly show how little you think of white skinned English speakers. I'm absolutely amazed the mods let you get away with these inflammatory, baseless, and completely racist statements! Again, please provide some kind of support for your claims of how useless English speaking white people do not deserve the compensation packages they have received. You are so far out of line!



tilla_07 said:


> You want to talk about life loss. let's talk about it. let's talk about how there are people in the usa who have worked for the same company for more than 30 years, generations of their family have worked there, but are now out of work since the factory is moving. They have lost everything, their homes, their cars, their livelihood. They are not complaining that the Indians have come and taken their jobs away.


Um actually they are, but apparently by your statements, you don't think too much of what these 'zero skills' white people are saying...



tilla_07 said:


> They are complaining that they have lost their jobs to overseas but guess what? Their company did not move to india or china but to an Eastern European country. So will you now bash the Eatern Europeans as well?


Very few companies are moving abroad. Mostly foreigners are being brought here on visas to replace Americans. And for the record, yes I would have just as much of a problem if my country was giving my job to ANY foreigner. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH INDIANS PERSONALLY. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY COUNTRY WHICH GIVES MY JOB AWAY WHEN I HAVE PAID TAXES TO THIS COUNTRY MY WHOLE LIFE YES I SHOULD COME FIRST. OVER ANY FOREIGNER. In my industry (IT) it just happens to be Indians that my country keeps giving my job to. 



tilla_07 said:


> There are very few who have not ben affected by this economy and the dire state the world is in right now. But one thing I would like to point out is that, it was not the Indians or the Chinese or the Ozzies whose economy was responsible for the crash of the world's market. it was the USA whose banks/corporate world that did this and since USA is the top nation in the world, many countries that were directly connected to it or depended on it faced the same fate or worse. Whether its Canada or Japan, people were affected greatly by the recession and every Tom, Dick, and Harry were affected by it in some form or other. The difference between them and you is that they are not blaming the Indians for their situation but actually trying their damndest to survive.


Again, please provide evidence that I ever said the state of our economy is to be blamed on Indians. This is ludicrous. Do NOT put words in my mouth. I will not get into the state of affairs that led to the current economy. But if you must know I blame the so called 'self regulating' CPA industry that cooks the books and has no oversight. Wordcom, Enron, etc. No matter how many companies fall because off cooked books these accountants are beyond regulation. This has nothing to do with Indians. My country giving my job to foreigners when the economy is poor is the problem here. And when they give so many jobs away that a minority in an industry becomes a majority, they will only naturally look down on the locals they have replaced. And these attitudes will obviously factor into their hiring decisions. You have proven my point exactly, better than I ever could have with the extremely racist, anti American, anti White statements you have made in this very forum. You have clearly shown your opinion about 'no skills' useless white people with 'nothing but their white skin' going for them. If I had made any statements even CLOSE to the nature of what you have said here I would be banned permanently. It is an outrage that your post even still exists here!



tilla_07 said:


> I apologize to the mods and to the owner of this board if I have stepped out of line and said anything that is hurtful to anyone. But I could not just sit back and not respond to these allegations when there are two sides to every story and only one side is being spoken and heard by everyone. No matter the experience everyone has had in this board regarding discrimination in the workplace or on the street, I think we can all agree that it is wrong and should not be encouraged.


You owe more than a little kissing up apology to the 'mods' here. You have made repeated racist and nationalistic attacks on white people, on the unemployed in America, and on me personally. And you are way out of line! Unbelievable some of the things you have said. If I had actually said anything like you have in this forum, I would never be allowed to post again. You really owe an apology! And not just to me but to all 'white' Americans you have attacked, those working abroad, and those unemployed here in the states. You are so far out of line. Just because you are attacking white people does NOT make your racism OK. You have called Americans 'zero skilled' who wouldn't have a job except for their 'white skin' unemployed because they are 'sitting on their hands'. You have attacked my character by putting words in my mouth that I have never said on this forum or anywhere. You have attacked my skill set of which you know nothing about. Though it is nice to see you share your true feelings about white people, and what values YOU hold inside- you are totally out of line and owe one heck of an apology. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!


----------

