# Another remote working scenario



## So Simple

Afternoon all

I've been following this forum for a while now and find it a great resource for giving a balanced view on living in France with my partner.

My situation is that I'm a self employed (Ltd company, sole director) and work from home as I only need a PC. I've read many posts on 'digital nomads' but not sure that I'd fall completely into that category, and I've also noted negativity around it.

I'm 59 and hope to gradually retire over the next few years by reducing my workload as I'm fortunate enough to have a good pension, so don't plan to be a drain on the French system.

I'd like to buy a property in the next 12-18 months and initially plan to spend 3 months in France to check that it's what we really want to do.

I've read so many posts that ask similar questions, but usually have a pre-Brexit angle around residency that I don't have, so apologies if the answers are already out there.

Ideally, I'd like to buy a property in France and continue my work by working remotely. I have no issue about paying taxes correctly, but not sure of the right order to go about things, re visa, buying and eventually settling in France.

We've narrowed down the area we'd like to live in and now I'd like to fully understand the pitfalls before making a decision that could potentially be very costly.


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## BackinFrance

There is NO such thing as a digital nomad visa.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, first of all, there is absolutely nothing to keep you from buying a property in France - to use as a vacation home as long as you spend no more that 90 days here in any (rolling) 180 day period. That only involves a Schengen "tourist" visa - the stamp in the passport on entry kind. Technically, you are not supposed to work while in France, but practically speaking, there is no real way for you to get caught, and even if you were, they tend not to bother folks doing a bit of remote work from their vacation home as long as they actually return back to their primary home at the end of their "vacation."

If and when, on the other hand, you want to move to France to stay for longer than the 90 days in a 180 day period tourist thing, you are going to need a visa - and one that allows you to work in France. You are considered to be working in France if you are doing the work for which you are paid while physically present in France. This is the official French government site on obtaining visa (including a long-stay visa, which is what you'll need) in the UK Welcome FV | United Kingdom

Despite what seems to be circulating on various British expat sites online, it is NOT ok to work remotely (and regularly) on a long-stay renewable "visiteur" visa. Even if the consulate tells you to your face that it is OK to do so, do not believe them. The consulate does not know what the situation is on the ground in the individual prefectures (as I found out "the hard way" many years ago).

To work remotely, there are a few options available: 
either 

you set up a French business entity and work from France as a "contractor" billing your "employer" for your services and paying your taxes and social insurances yourself (note that setting up a business as "self-employed" is a much more bureaucratic process than it is in the UK) or
You have your company in the UK enroll with URSSAF as a "French employer with no French presence" so that they can pay you based on a French payroll (even if you are the only person on that payroll). (note here than French "cotisations" - i.e. social insurances - are quite a bit higher for the employer in France than in the UK) or
You could sign up with a portage company to handle all the payroll stuff for you (for a cut of your "salary" from the UK).
There may be some other options, but which one you choose may determine which visa you are eligible to apply for.
As BiF states, France does not have any sort of "digital nomad" visa at this time nor have I heard anything about them trying to create one.

If you're only going to be working from France for a few years anyhow, you might consider just buying a vacation home you could visit as a "tourist" a few times a year, and then moving over more permanently when you do finally retire and your pension kicks in. Ultimately, that may be the simplest approach - especially considering that if you do move over now, you'll be paying into the French retirement system for however many years before retirement, and while you may qualify for a partial retirement from France, it will be a minimal amount. The "visiteur" visa for retirees is much easier to obtain than any of the visas with work privileges.


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## BackinFrance

To clarify, you would need a visa that allows you to work in France and they are not easy to come by unless you fit the passeport talent requirements, then you would need to establish a business in France. Of course if you are an EU citizen or married to one or married or PACSed to a French citizen, the pathway is easier, though you still have to establish a business in France.


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## Bevdeforges

Oh, BiF's post just reminded me - you say you want to move to France with your partner. Unless you and your partner are married or PACS'd (i.e. in a recognized "civil union"), you will each have to qualify separately for a visa - depending on each person's circumstances. France doesn't recognize "de facto relationships" no matter how long they have endured.


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## So Simple

Thank you for taking the time to give such a comprehensive reply Bevdesforges, it's really appreciated.


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## 255

@So Simple -- Another option would be for your UK Ltd to hire a French PEO. They would essentially handle all the HR for you, while in France. Another member recently chose this solution. This might open you up for other various alternatives of the Passeport Talent, as a representative of your company in France. International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr After you've got "the lay of the land," your UK company could register with the French authorities directly to save on outsourcing your HR.

Alternatively, you could use the two years before your potential final move to migrate your company to France. You might also make an appointment with the French Chamber of Commerce (CCI) for the area of your intended move. They can give you free advice and alert you to any special programs to invite (read subsidize) movement of your firm to France. Cheers, 255


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## EuroTrash

Frankly IMHO if you're winding down for retirement, it hardly seems worth the hassle of setting up in France. It would be extra expense for the business, which is not really what you want if the plan is to start easing off, and you'd just have nicely got into the swing with everything sorted by the time you shut it all down.
I agree with Bev - buy a place if you want, use it as a holiday home for now, come over as a tourist keep your work in France to a minimum, and off the record. If you were planning on working full on for another 10 years it would be different.


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## Peter_E

As far as I understand, if you work in France then France will become your competent state for healthcare. Thus, when you pass retirement age, you will not be able to use your UK issued S1 (since France is now responsible for your healthcare) to reduced your social charges in France. Thus you will have to pay full French social charges on your UK income and pensions for the rest of your stay in France which is 17.2% as opposed to 7.5%.


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## Bevdeforges

Peter_E said:


> As far as I understand, if you work in France then France will become your competent state for healthcare. Thus, when you pass retirement age, you will not be able to use your UK issued S1 (since France is now responsible for your healthcare) to reduced your social charges in France. Thus you will have to pay full French social charges on your UK income and pensions for the rest of your stay in France which is 17.2% as opposed to 7.5%.


I'm not sure about that one - though it may be one of those things that Brexit has confused beyond all recognition.

If you work in France, then you meet one of the three conditions for being considered "tax resident" in France. Not sure how you would maintain a UK residency at the same time (though the UK notion of residency for tax purposes is a whole bunch more complicated than France's "meet any one of these 3 conditions and you're tax resident" approach.

But I suppose we'll find out in the coming years as I'm sure someone will push the envelope on this, as well as many other situations.


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## EuroTrash

Bevdeforges said:


> If you work in France, then you meet one of the three conditions for being considered "tax resident" in France. Not sure how you would maintain a UK residency at the same time (though the UK notion of residency for tax purposes is a whole bunch more complicated than France's "meet any one of these 3 conditions and you're tax resident" approach.


As one who flits betwixt and between, this is how I understand it. But it may be wrong.

It's actually not at all hard to meet France's residency criteria and also the UK residency criteria, because HMRC has very sticky fingers.
If you do, then the FR-UK tax treaty sets out s series of tie breaker tests and you apply those, ie


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496672/france_dtc_-_in_force.pdf



_2. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined in accordance with the following rules: 
(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests); 
(b) if the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State in which he has an habitual abode; 
(c) if he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of which he is a national; (d) if he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the States shall settle the question by mutual agreement_.

But the S1 issue is about social security rules not tax rules. I know it used to be exactly as @Peter_E says. What I didn't know was whether post Brexit UK continues to issue S1s to eligible retirees who move abroad / early retirees already living abroad who reach retirement age. If so, that's another reason in favour of stopping work when you leave the UK. If you work and pay cotisations in France you risk making yourself ineligible for the S1 which if you had one, would reduce your social charges liability in France.


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## EuroTrash

PS Why is my last post wider than the box it's in? Or is it just my screen? I can't even get at it to try and edit it because the three dots have disappeared behind an advert.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> PS Why is my last post wider than the box it's in? Or is it just my screen? I can't even get at it to try and edit it because the three dots have disappeared behind an advert.


I see the whole of your post on my Android phone and exactly the same size as all the other posts. Try refreshing your screen.


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## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> PS Why is my last post wider than the box it's in? Or is it just my screen? I can't even get at it to try and edit it because the three dots have disappeared behind an advert.


It's your old chinese lantern, about to give up the ghost. 
You should get yourself a shiny new iPhone 14 Pro. Preferably 'duty free'. 🤓😘


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## conky2

Looks bigger on my MacBook Air as well ET.............


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## Peter_E

EuroTrash said:


> As one who flits betwixt and between, this is how I understand it. But it may be wrong.
> 
> It's actually not at all hard to meet France's residency criteria and also the UK residency criteria, because HMRC has very sticky fingers.
> If you do, then the FR-UK tax treaty sets out s series of tie breaker tests and you apply those, ie
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/496672/france_dtc_-_in_force.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> _2. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1 an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined in accordance with the following rules:
> (a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
> (b) if the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State in which he has an habitual abode;
> (c) if he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of which he is a national; (d) if he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the States shall settle the question by mutual agreement_.
> 
> But the S1 issue is about social security rules not tax rules. I know it used to be exactly as @Peter_E says. What I didn't know was whether post Brexit UK continues to issue S1s to eligible retirees who move abroad / early retirees already living abroad who reach retirement age. If so, that's another reason in favour of stopping work when you leave the UK. If you work and pay cotisations in France you risk making yourself ineligible for the S1 which if you had one, would reduce your social charges liability in France.


Post Brexit that is still the case.








Vivanova Lifestyle & Business Networking Club


Blevins Franks Financial Tips - French Social Charges – What You Need to Know in 2022 - France imposes social charges in addition to income tax. If you hold form S1, however, you don’t need to pay them on your UK pension income and now the French tax authorities have confirmed that the favourable 7




www.clubvivanova.com












Retiring to France After Brexit: Can I Get an S1 Form? - FrenchEntrée


An S1 form gives EU pensioners access to France’s healthcare system and means no social charges on your pension - but can you still get one post-Brexit?




www.frenchentree.com





If you are an early retiree below state pension age, you will not be eligible for an S1 from the UK. However if you have private healthcare and do not register on the French Healthcare system you are still entitled to tick the box 8SH on the tax return which reduces the social charges on your investment income to 7.5%. This was confirmed by my local tax office. Depending on your investment income, the savings on social charges could be more than the cost of private healthcare.
A lot of the advice on the internet is for retirees which have reached the state pension age. This is not the same as early retirees in the UK that access their private pension from the age 55 or 56. Pension in the articles generally means state pensions i.e. past state pension age.

So you really need to thing about whether it is worth your while to work in France before you reach state pension age.


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## EuroTrash

conky2 said:


> Looks bigger on my MacBook Air as well ET.............


Well I'm glad I'm not the only one. Still the case on my pc this morning although on my phone (NOT an iPhone) it looks fine.


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## EuroTrash

This S1 thing - it just occurred to me that you could perhaps see this as the flipside of S1 holders not having access to CSS. Obviously it's different S1 holders that are concerned, but it's the same principle in that S1 holders as a category are excluded from the healthcare "solidarity" lark. At one end you have the ones that benefit from being excluded, ie those that by virtue of the S1 are exempted from paying the social levy, and at the other end you have the ones that are disadvantaged by being excluded, ie they can't claim CSS. 
Maybe UK S1 holders in France could set up their own voluntary solidarity fund where the high earners pay into a separate pot to support the low earners... it'd be trickle down economics, wouldn't it. And would have about as much chance of working as the Truss-Kwarteng theory.


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## Peasant

Peter_E said:


> As far as I understand, if you work in France then France will become your competent state for healthcare. Thus, when you pass retirement age, you will not be able to use your UK issued S1 (since France is now responsible for your healthcare) to reduced your social charges in France. Thus you will have to pay full French social charges on your UK income and pensions for the rest of your stay in France which is 17.2% as opposed to 7.5%.


I'd check on that. All of my income is retirement income from US sources and France taxes none of it. My accoubtant told me that France doesn't tax retirement income, whatever the source.


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## EuroTrash

Peasant said:


> My accoubtant told me that France doesn't tax retirement income, whatever the source.


Nope, UK state pensions are definitely taxable in France.
There are generous allowances so it may well be that people pay no tax because their RFR ends up below the threshold, Historically, UK state pensions have found that fluctuations in the exchange rate can make all the difference between paying tax and not.
I recently got my first avis as an oldie and was surprised how generous the allowances for cottontops are.
I am pretty sure France taxes French retirement pensions too. 
No clue about US pensions.


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## Bevdeforges

Peasant said:


> I'd check on that. All of my income is retirement income from US sources and France taxes none of it. My accoubtant told me that France doesn't tax retirement income, whatever the source.


Oh dear - France does indeed tax retirement income. They calculate your taxes taking your "foreign retirement" income into account and then credit you back for the French tax rate on that amount. And for those with French pensions, they require that you report the amount and yes, they certainly do tax it.

Your accountant apparently doesn't understand the system very well. For those of us with French source income in addition to foreign retirement income, the way they calculate the tax credit doesn't entirely do away with taxes on the foreign retirement stuff - but the amount you wind up paying is pretty much insignificant.


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## EuroTrash

Bevdeforges said:


> They calculate your taxes taking your "foreign retirement" income into account and then credit you back for the French tax rate on that amount.


Under the UK-FR treaty, the UK state retirement pension is taxable in France not the UK so I think it is just a straight calculation with no crediting back to be done?


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> Under the UK-FR treaty, the UK state retirement pension is taxable in France not the UK so I think it is just a straight calculation with no crediting back to be done?


From what many UK pensioners on the forum have said, France does indeed tax UK pensions and it can be expensive. I have no experience myself., but I think CSG comes into play.


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> From what many UK pensioners on the forum have said, France does indeed tax UK pensions and it can be expensive. I have no experience myself., but I think CSG comes into play.


I thought so too. But I declared UK pension income this time for the first time, fully expecting CSG to be payable, and none is shown on my avis. Mind you it was only a very tiddly little annuity.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> I thought so too. But I declared UK pension income this time for the first time, fully expecting CSG to be payable, and none is shown on my avis. Mind you it was only a very tiddly little annuity.


That would either be because it is a very small amount or because it is an annuity and not the UK OAP. Not that I have a clue.


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## Bevdeforges

EuroTrash said:


> Under the UK-FR treaty, the UK state retirement pension is taxable in France not the UK so I think it is just a straight calculation with no crediting back to be done?


I know there is a difference in treatment between a "state" pension from the UK and a private pension - but in the past we've had quite a few discussions here about what constitutes a "state" pension. IIRC, if you worked for the state to earn the pension, it's considered a "private" pension, whereas if you worked in a private company and paid into the state pension system (which is, I guess, mandatory over there), what the state system pays you is treated as a "state" pension in France. Or maybe the other way around.

Probably something like the Brit notion of "private" vs. "public" schools, which I never quite figured out. <ggg>


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## EuroTrash

I think to most Brits, a "state pension" means the retirement pension that everybody gets if they've paid National Insurance contributions, and it's taxed in France. If you have a pension with an independent pension provider, either one that's arranged through your workplace or one that you arranged yourself, that is a "private pension" and is also taxed in France. If you work for the government it's a "government pension" which is always taxed in the UK. If you worked for a local authority it's a "local authority pension".in which case you need to identify exactly who is managing/paying your pension, because some are funded by the government and are treated like government pensions and taxed in the UK, and some are not directly funded by the government treated like private pensions and taxed in France. Then there's military pensions etc which I believe have special rules. No doubt it's all set out in the tax treaty, I think that's right but I haven't studied it beyond state retirement pensions and private pensions since those are all I will get. 
Pension terminology certainly is confusing though -,I have always called my private pension a SERP, for Self Employment Retirement Plan, which is an entirely different thing from a SERPS which stands for State Earnings Related Pension.


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## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> *Pension terminology certainly is confusing though* -,I have always called my private pension a SERP, for Self Employment Retirement Plan, which is an entirely different thing from a SERPS which stands for *State Earnings Related Pension*.


Confusing, but not by accident.

SERPS - State Earnings Related Pension *Scheme.*
We used to sell these as a 'free pension'. "Have you got your free pension yet?" 🙈
The owner 'contracted out' with a quick signature and NINO. Twenty quid commission.

*Have you cashed yours in yet?

I've never heard a Private Pension be called a SERP.
Maybe it was sold to you when you were self-employed, and it would sound more impressive.
Or the phrase could have been dropped in the industry once SERPS arrived.
They were often called Personal Pensions though, and I think this was the official title on the documents.

Then there's the defined contribution (money purchase), the defined benefit (final salary), AVCs, FSAVCs..................Ah, Happy Days. 😅


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## Peasant

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh dear - France does indeed tax retirement income. They calculate your taxes taking your "foreign retirement" income into account and then credit you back for the French tax rate on that amount. And for those with French pensions, they require that you report the amount and yes, they certainly do tax it.


All of my income is US-based retirement income and if I wind up not paying any French taxes on it, then I'm not being taxed.


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## Peasant

EuroTrash said:


> No clue about US pensions.


There's an agreement between France and the US that means that you pay no income tax on US-based retirement income.
I thought that the OP was US based.


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## BackinFrance

The OP has a UK flag, talks about Brexit and a Limited Company and is very clearly UK based. I post this for those coming late to the conversation who perhaps don't read the earlier posts in the thread.


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## Bevdeforges

Peasant said:


> All of my income is US-based retirement income and if I wind up not paying any French taxes on it, then I'm not being taxed.


The key thing there is that you have no French sourced income. If you did, you'd see how the "tax credit at French rates" doesn't really completely eliminate the taxation on your US pensions. But you still need to report the income on your French declarations and then properly report it as subject to the "tax credit at French rates" to be in full compliance.

It's a minor point, but one of those things they won't bother you about - but it can come back to bite you if you got cavalier and figured "it's not taxed, so I don't have to report it."


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## So Simple

BackinFrance said:


> The OP has a UK flag, talks about Brexit and a Limited Company and is very clearly UK based. I post this for those coming late to the conversation who perhaps don't read the earlier posts in the thread.


Thanks to Kwasi and Liz, I've been so busy with work over the past week that haven't had a chance to catch up on this thread.

Although the responses may not have provided the answers I was hoping for, they have been really useful to help with some of the decisions around timing.

Yes, I'm UK based and trade as a Ltd company (myself and partner are directors) and to be honest there seems little point in setting up in France for a maximum of 3 years.

As for pensions, this is really interesting as I'm 59 and my UK state pension isn't planned to kick until I reach 67, but my private pension is available to draw down now, should I choose to. I hadn't considered that my state pension would be taxed, but can see the logic if I want to benefit from the French healthcare system.

The current political and financial uncertainty in the UK, plus the complexity of working in France has convinced me to defer any move for 3 years.

It also ties in well with a few other life issues, so the next question is whether to buy a 'holiday home' that may not be the long term property we really want, only to have to sell it to release capital in a few years time!

Thanks for all the comments so far, they have been really useful.


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## Bevdeforges

Based on my observations over the 30 or so years I have lived here, I would strongly advise against buying a property that you would likely be selling again in only 3 to 5 years' time. The housing market in France is very slow and it could easily take you 1 or 2 years to sell the place once you have decided you need or want to. Property doesn't appreciate in value here like it does in the UK or US and if you wind up overpaying for a holiday home, you'll have to find other Brits to unload it on if you expect to get back at least what you paid for it. Besides, staying in different areas on holiday will give you a better opportunity to scout out where you might actually like to live.


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## Nomoss

I second what Bev says above.
It's a lot easier to buy than sell a house in France, and it's not that easy to buy


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## BackinFrance

Buy a holiday home in France and you will have to pay property taxes on it as a second home. These are not inconsequential. If you want to rent it out to holiday makers then you will need someone to manage it, especially for change overs which will be far more expensive than you might think (if you can even find someone which depends very much on where the property is located).


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## So Simple

Bevdeforges said:


> Based on my observations over the 30 or so years I have lived here, I would strongly advise against buying a property that you would likely be selling again in only 3 to 5 years' time. The housing market in France is very slow and it could easily take you 1 or 2 years to sell the place once you have decided you need or want to. Property doesn't appreciate in value here like it does in the UK or US and if you wind up overpaying for a holiday home, you'll have to find other Brits to unload it on if you expect to get back at least what you paid for it. Besides, staying in different areas on holiday will give you a better opportunity to scout out where you might actually like to live.


This was precisely my concern, so thanks for confirming.

When we visited recently, we viewed a few properties, mainly to get a sense of what is available and despite what the agents were saying, we didn't get the sense that we'd be significantly disadvantaged by not jumping right in.

A number of the properties we viewed were being sold by Brits and had already been on the market for a considerable time, and its plain to see there appears to be an almost secondary market of expensively renovated properties where the seller (often, but not exclusively Brits) are trying to recoup their outlay with optimistic asking prices.

I'm currently working in the UK housing market (mortgages) and I can see there are lots of benefits to a flat market, but equally having capital tied up in the house you can't sell isn't ideal.



Nomoss said:


> I second what Bev says above.
> It's a lot easier to buy than sell a house in France, and it's not that easy to buy


This really hits the nail on the head!


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