# Iguala '43'



## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

I hear that the demonstrations in Mexico City have diminished to family and friends now. This has allowed the EPN government to get back to "business as usual". The chief investigator of the PGR says that there is nothing more to investigate, it has all been investigated (case closed). Scientists say that it was impossible to burn the 43+ bodies as was claimed, and Argentina Analysts claim that the lone bone fragment found was burned somewhere else. Parents think the military burned the bodies at one of their crematories. (why would the army have crematories?)
So, the PRI is back in business as usual ? :confused2:


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes the whole thing is unreal.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Yet another discussion of Iguala. Why not just post this, move this, to the main discussion of that issue?


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

coondawg said:


> I hear that the demonstrations in Mexico City have diminished to family and friends now. This has allowed the EPN government to get back to "business as usual". The chief investigator of the PGR says that there is nothing more to investigate, it has all been investigated (case closed). Scientists say that it was impossible to burn the 43+ bodies as was claimed, and Argentina Analysts claim that the lone bone fragment found was burned somewhere else. Parents think the military burned the bodies at one of their crematories. (why would the army have crematories?)
> So, the PRI is back in business as usual ? :confused2:


Well, that was certainly not the case last weekend. There was a fairly massive protest that went on for two days, with dozens of buses used to bring it protestors numbering in the thousands who shut down the streets running and near Gobernacion for two days. On two Thursdays ago, you also had dozens of men dancing all day on Reforma in their underwear, and about 40 women dancing bare breasted again, for hours and hours, on Reforma's access road.

Police were only keeping traffic moving, letting them shut down the streets - not Reforma.

Now I'm here in Oaxaca and the protests over general distrust of gov't by unionists but also making strong protests over the missing students have picked up pace this week, with rotating airport, bus terminal and highway shutdowns, with newspapers complaining of "chaos" day after day.

Also protestors set up dozens of tents as they took over the Zocalo in Oaxaca last Tuesday. I suspect many of the tents are unoccupied, but there are enough protestors there to keep it going, so no, it's not only family and friends -- again, two main themes, union anger over their issues, and the missing students. Their pictures are everywhere in Oaxaca's Zocalo, and many buildings have new revolutionary slogans painted on them in angry swirling black letters -- the hammer and sickle, and the missing students.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Sadly, we have seen and heard "nothing" in the streets since the beginning here in Leon, and we have about 1.5 million people here.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Oaxaca has a new demonstration every week so nothing new there either. ever since the teachers took over he zocalo it has been a mess. They have all these ugly slogans everywhere, for Xmas the slogans were moved out a little and a mrket with the usual cheap blouses from Oaxaca Chiapas and guaemala took over..it is just an eyesore..

By the way since you are in Oaxaca do not miss the restaurant of the Mendoza sisters in Teotitlan del Valle . It is Teotitaln del Valle food and probably one of the best restaurants in the country. Not cheap but wonderful. It is on the right handside at the ent
ry of town. The name starts with a T, it is very famous ask your hotel which days there are open..but go there it is worth it..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Today in Mexico City another massive demonstration is taking place in support of the Ayotzinapa 43. Along with the families of the missing students are representatives of the usual participants in any sort of anti-government protests, principally the "maestros" of Section 22 of the CNTE. These kinds of marches have been going on for ages, to little effect, I think. I see them as a sort of political "bread-and-circuses" that the Mexican authorities permit to allow disgruntled citizens let off steam. Call me cynical, but that's how it seems to me. 

Cobertura al minuto: Jornada Global por Ayotzinapa â€” La Jornada


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

They were all kinds of maches in Europe too about the missing 43..same deal if the marches in Mexico have litte effect , I doubt that the foreign ones will have more effects..


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Today in Mexico City another massive demonstration is taking place in support of the Ayotzinapa 43. Along with the families of the missing students are representatives of the usual participants in any sort of anti-government protests, principally the "maestros" of Section 22 of the CNTE. These kinds of marches have been going on for ages, to little effect, I think. I see them as a sort of political "bread-and-circuses" that the Mexican authorities permit to allow disgruntled citizens let off steam. Call me cynical, but that's how it seems to me.
> 
> Cobertura al minuto: Jornada Global por Ayotzinapa â€” La Jornada


Lack of will for sure to solve it, which is strange, if it was a PRD thing ... but then again, if all are mixed up in the trafficking biz, then it's not easy to understand why no movement to solve it.

The FBI would break it easily, and its Mexican equivalent could do it as well, with the proper orders. They have about 50 suspects, right? The FBI, or any US law enforcement, would put them all into separate rooms and start telling each: "First ones to talk will walk out of here a free person (and with a new identity, for those afraid of talking), but if your buddy talks first, you're going to prison for 40 years. You have five minutes to decide."

I think that would work for that husband and wife mayor team as well. Tell each one, in separate rooms, if the other spouse talks first, you're going to prison for 40 years, but if you tell us everything, and it holds up, you can walk away, and with a new identity."


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> They were all kinds of maches in Europe too about the missing 43..same deal if the marches in Mexico have litte effect , I doubt that the foreign ones will have more effects..


I somewhere recently that a delegation of parents of the missing students was planning a trip to Geneva to appeal to the International Court of Justice for help. If this journey does take place, I wonder who will be footing the bill, obviously not the Mexican government!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I somewhere recently that a delegation of parents of the missing students was planning a trip to Geneva to appeal to the International Court of Justice for help. If this journey does take place, I wonder who will be footing the bill, obviously not the Mexican government!


There was a story in Proceso yesterday about a group setting up their own toll stations on a highway in Guerrero. They were financing a trip to Mexico City though, not Europe.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Geneva is an expensive place to go to especially if several people are going..they will have o block a whole lot of cuotas for that one..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> Geneva is an expensive place to go to especially if several people are going..they will have o block a whole lot of cuotas for that one..


Or hijack a bunch of Sabritas trucks and sell the contents in the local market.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Cobertura al minuto: Piden investigar al Ejército por Ayotzinapa — La Jornada


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Did their hero, Che Guevera, do that sort of thing?
Who tends the not-so-productive gardens at their commune while they are off occupying toll booths, commandeering Coke trucks when thirsty, Sabritas when hungry and buses when they need luxury transport?


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

TundraGreen said:


> There was a story in Proceso yesterday about a group setting up their own toll stations on a highway in Guerrero. They were financing a trip to Mexico City though, not Europe.


The "students" and their misbehaving parents have frequently, for years now, blocked highways in Guerrero and demand money to fund a variety of bad behavior activities.


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

RVGRINGO said:


> Did their hero, Che Guevera, do that sort of thing?
> Who tends the not-so-productive gardens at their commune while they are off occupying toll booths, commandeering Coke trucks when thirsty, Sabritas when hungry and buses when they need luxury transport?


Say what you will about Che, he was willing to put his life on the line in support of his beliefs. Unlike capitalist chickenhawks sitting comfortably around the country club while their gardens are tended to by exploited undocumented workers after sending off the sons and daughters of the working class to do their dirty work bombing and destroying other countries.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Cristobal said:


> Say what you will about Che, he was willing to put his life on the line in support of his beliefs. Unlike capitalist chickenhawks sitting comfortably around the country club while their gardens are tended to by exploited undocumented workers after sending off the sons and daughters of the working class to do their dirty work bombing and destroying other countries.


But this thread is about the activities of those protesting the "disappearance" of the 43 normalistas, not a comparison of the good side of Che and the evils committed by the wealthy in capitalist countries. It would have been more to the point to compare the idealism of Che with the behavior of armchair radicals who espouse revolution while safely ensconced in their comfortable middle-class homes.


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> But this thread is about the activities of those protesting the "disappearance" of the 43 normalistas, not the good side of Che and the evils committed by the wealthy in capitalist countries.


There are no wealthy capitalists in Mexico? Of course not. And the poor here are always given a fair shake. The people protesting are just a bunch of unappreciative malcontents..


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

There are no wealthy capitalists in Mexico?
Ha!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> There are no wealthy capitalists in Mexico?
> Ha!


Who said that? Not I!


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Cristobal said:


> Say what you will about Che, he was willing to put his life on the line in support of his beliefs. Unlike capitalist chickenhawks sitting comfortably around the country club while their gardens are tended to by exploited undocumented workers after sending off the sons and daughters of the working class to do their dirty work bombing and destroying other countries.


Che LOVED executing Cubans. Yes, Fidel, his brother and other Cuban "leaders" ordered thousands of their people butchered over the years, but Che loved to take part in the actual executions, loved to watch the final moments of the "enemies of the state."

Che also ordered the execution of children during the Castro band's days in the mountains, for "threatening" the revolution by dong things like wanting to eat, to eat before Che got his food. Go read about the children he ordered executed in his biographies, not his hagiographies. Disgusting filth, Che.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Che LOVED executing Cubans. Yes, Fidel, his brother and other Cuban "leaders" ordered thousands of their people butchered over the years, but Che loved to take part in the actual executions, loved to watch the final moments of the "enemies of the state."
> 
> Che also ordered the execution of children during the Castro band's days in the mountains, for "threatening" the revolution by dong things like wanting to eat, to eat before Che got his food. Go read about the children he ordered executed in his biographies, not his hagiographies. Disgusting filth, Che.


Links to reliable references, please. 

He certainly was a mixture of warrior and humanitarian. In Wikipedia it describes that in the middle of warfare in the mountains he built factories to make grenades and built ovens to bake bread. He had workshops to teach military tactics and organized schools to teach illiterate peasants to read and write. 

Che Guevara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As so many other iconic figures in history, in my books he's neither saint nor the devil incarnate. It was wartime, which is always nasty business. The article also states that the Batista government forces "regularly rounded up, tortured, and shot civilians as a tactic of intimidation. By March 1958, the continued atrocities carried out by Batista's forces led the United States to announce it would stop selling arms to the Cuban government."

A quote from one biographer (from the Wikipedia article): 

_"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."_ 
— Jon Lee Anderson, author of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life, PBS forum


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

RVGRINGO said:


> Did their hero, Che Guevera, do that sort of thing?
> Who tends the not-so-productive gardens at their commune while they are off occupying toll booths, commandeering Coke trucks when thirsty, Sabritas when hungry and buses when they need luxury transport?


Who's hero? I have not seen Ernesto Guevara's pictures or parafernalia in this case.

At any rate, if someone would have Che's as a hero, they should start making like him and studying first, he was a doctor before becoming a rebel


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> The "students" and their misbehaving parents have frequently, for years now, blocked highways in Guerrero and demand money to fund a variety of bad behavior activities.


They should be punished for that too.
That's not a legal way to raise funds


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Who said that? Not I!


Cristobal did


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> They should be punished for that too.
> That's not a legal way to raise funds


That's just the problem, they never are. It's as though the government is afraid of these people or has made some sort of "deal" with them. Just one more example of a lack of the rule of law in many parts of Mexico.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> That's just the problem, they never are. It's as though the government is afraid of these people or has made some sort of "deal" with them. Just one more example of a lack of the rule of law in many parts of Mexico.


Mexico and everywhere in the world, governments do not want to be tagged as oppressive and they let mobs do as they want.
They have become softies


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexico and everywhere in the world, governments do not want to be tagged as oppressive and they let mobs do as they want.
> They have become softies


Not true in the United States. When there are demonstrations and the law is broken, then people are arrested and may end up in jail. I know because it happened to me once in Philadelphia!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

True not o true in the US but true in France for sure.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Finally! Groups of normalistas were trying to take over "casetas" on the Autopista del Sol in Guerrero, and they were stopped (and some arrested) by the "federales".

El Universal - Los Estados - Impiden federales 'toma' de caseta de Palo Blanco


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Just from curiousity, Isla. Why such glee at hearing that news?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Cristobal said:


> Just from curiousity, Isla. Why such glee at hearing that news?


Because the normalistas have been getting away with this kind of behvior for years, not to mention commandeering public buses to take them to demonstrations and hijacking trucks carrying soda and sabritas. And these are the future teachers of Mexico?


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Because the normalistas have been getting away with this kind of behvior for years, not to mention commandeering public buses to take them to demonstrations and hijacking trucks carrying soda and sabritas. And these are the future teachers of Mexico?


I imagine a few will become full time teachers but many will find other lines of work. None of my children received instruction from a normalista trained teacher. I hope I am not out of line by again asking why you seem to derive such personal satisfaction from today's news?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Borderland Beat: Trickery in the normalista assassin's perp walk-Handcuffed? Nope, water-bottled!

An interesting (to me) group of pictures of the confessed "mad man" murderer of 39 of the 43. And, a comparison of his treatment and that of the "mad man" Dr. Mireles' treatment.


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