# When to use "usted?"



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hi guys. My empadronamiento won't be done for at least another 1-1/2 weeks.  So while waiting I'm really focusing on learning basic Spanish words and phrases. So my question is, is "usted" is used only in really, really formal situations? Or is it for any stranger - a neighbour, shopkeeper, etc.? At what point is it proper to stop using usted? I'm hoping you say it's infrequently used, so that I don't have to learn where to put the "su" and all the tenses of verbs that change when usted is used. I hope that's not too much to ask of you.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

AllHeart said:


> Hi guys. My empadronamiento won't be done for at least another 1-1/2 weeks.  So while waiting I'm really focusing on learning basic Spanish words and phrases. So my question is, is "usted" is used only in really, really formal situations? Or is it for any stranger - a neighbour, shopkeeper, etc.? At what point is it proper to stop using usted? I'm hoping you say it's infrequently used, so that I don't have to learn where to put the "su" and all the tenses of verbs that change when usted is used. I hope that's not too much to ask of you.


As you say, usted is really only for formal use. Strictly speaking, it does matter.


However, I don't think people mind too much these days and if you used Tu everywhere, there would be no real problem.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> As you say, usted is really only for formal use. Strictly speaking, it does matter.
> 
> 
> However, I don't think people mind too much these days and if you used Tu everywhere, there would be no real problem.


 That's great news. I get sooo confused with the verb tenses and sticking the "su" and "usted" together that it's overwhelming. So I'll take a short-cut by not using usted for now. I can always add that skill later. I'm hoping when in more formal situations people who I should address as usted will give me some leeway, seeing quite clearly that my Spanish sucks and therein lies the faux pas, rather than showing a sign of disrespect. Worse-case scenario I will quote you as my scapegoat.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Thanks pal

I'd be interested in what our Spanish members think about this.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Thanks pal
> 
> I'd be interested in what our Spanish members think about this.


 About me using you as a scapegoat? Or about the use of 'usted?'


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Used here in the Plural Ustedes rather than Vosotros. The old geezers playing dominos use it, but only when playing dominos. Waiters and bar staff use it when you say Gracias they reply, "A usted"


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> Used here in the Plural Ustedes rather than Vosotros.


 Hi Hepa. Thanks for your help. I'm not sure what you mean by this. So you don't use the word vosotros at all, but always ustedes?



Hepa said:


> The old geezers playing dominos use it, but only when playing dominos. Waiters and bar staff use it when you say Gracias they reply, "A usted"


 Would you call the waiter usted as well?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I had a few Spanish lessons last year and asked the teacher if we could use usted because I never get to use it in Madrid, and on the rare occasion it is needed I find it hard to adapt. The teacher told me that the Spanish are now finding it hard to use as well, because it is so uncommon (which made me feel better). So I really wouldn't bother with it for now. You'll hear South Americans use it, the older generations maybe, and you'll hear it on TV (ironically when people want to be rude to each other). 

(Incidentally in English "you" was originally formal and "thou" was informal, so in English the reverse happened to what is happening in Spain)


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I had a few Spanish lessons last year and asked the teacher if we could use usted because I never get to use it in Madrid, and on the rare occasion it is needed I find it hard to adapt. The teacher told me that the Spanish are now finding it hard to use as well, because it is so uncommon (which made me feel better). So I really wouldn't bother with it for now. You'll hear South Americans use it, the older generations maybe, and you'll hear it on TV (ironically when people want to be rude to each other).
> 
> (Incidentally in English "you" was originally formal and "thou" was informal, so in English the reverse happened to what is happening in Spain)


Hi Chopera. Like you, that makes me feel better too. I hope it's the same in Malaga. And, yes, that is ironic that usted can be used as an insult. I think I get that, though. It's like in Canada when you call someone a lady, it could be an insult. Example, "Listen here, lady...." It's about tone and context. Those subtleties in language, you know? 

I didn't know about the history of "you" and "thou." In case you didn't notice already, I love words. So that history lesson put a smile on my face. Thank you.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Allheart,

Never use vosotros here, apart from the plural use, I would not normally use Usted for any one, unless I was taking the fiss.

Where I originate from thee thou thine are still in common use for the local dialect, I originate from the West Riding of Yorkshire


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> Allheart,
> 
> Never use vosotros here, apart from the plural use, I would not normally use Usted for any one, unless I was taking the fiss.


Hepa, I hope you don't mind me asking for a little more clarification... 

Now I'm confused because I thought 'vosotros' is plural for more than one person and it's informal, whereas 'ustedes' is plural for more than one person and it's formal.

What does "I was taking the fiss" mean?



Hepa said:


> Where I originate from thee thou thine are still in common use for the local dialect, I originate from the West Riding of Yorkshire


For real?! I've never heard anyone speak with those words, and I didn't know people still used those terms anywhere in the world. I thought it was buried in English history through old literature, laws and the like. It's good to hear that the language has been preserved somewhere.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I had a few Spanish lessons last year and asked the teacher if we could use usted because I never get to use it in Madrid, and on the rare occasion it is needed I find it hard to adapt. The teacher told me that the Spanish are now finding it hard to use as well, because it is so uncommon (which made me feel better). So I really wouldn't bother with it for now. You'll hear South Americans use it, the older generations maybe, *and you'll hear it on TV (ironically when people want to be rude to each other). *
> 
> (Incidentally in English "you" was originally formal and "thou" was informal, so in English the reverse happened to what is happening in Spain)


I've been discussing his very thing with some Spanish friends recently - & they say the same - usted is often used nowadays with a bit of a sneer in the tone, when showing disapproval of someone or their beliefs

a Spanish friend of mine told me a few years ago that it's sort of going out of fashion, except withe the very much older generations - he said that it was supposed to be used to show respect (in the past) but that he respects no-one more than his mother - & he uses tú with her 

he's a courtroom lawyer - & the only time he uses usted is actually in court


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Hepa, I hope you don't mind me asking for a little more clarification...
> 
> Now I'm confused because I thought 'vosotros' is plural for more than one person and it's informal, whereas 'ustedes' is plural for more than one person and it's formal.
> 
> ...


You are right, here we do not use Vosotros, instead we use Ustedes, both plural for more than one person.

Taking the piss, extracting the urine, leg pulling, joking.

Yes for real, especially in those isolated communities something like this the Yorkshire motto,

Ear all see all say nowt. eyt all sup all pay nowt, en if thou ever does owt fer nowt allis do it for thee sen.

Hear all see all say nothing, eat all drink all pay nothing, and if you ever do something for nothing, always do it for your self


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> i've been discussing his very thing with some spanish friends recently - & they say the same - usted is often used nowadays with a bit of a sneer in the tone, when showing disapproval of someone or their beliefs
> 
> a spanish friend of mine told me a few years ago that it's sort of going out of fashion, except withe the very much older generations - he said that it was supposed to be used to show respect (in the past) but that he respects no-one more than his mother - & he uses tú with her
> 
> he's a courtroom lawyer - & the only time he uses usted is actually in court


 lol!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> You are right, here we do not use Vosotros, instead we use Ustedes, both plural for more than one person.


 Gotcha. Finally! 



Hepa said:


> Taking the piss, extracting the urine, leg pulling, joking.


 Thank you for using so many examples. I only got you after the third example. The fourth example really drove the message home.



Hepa said:


> Yes for real, especially in those isolated communities something like this the Yorkshire motto,
> 
> Ear all see all say nowt. eyt all sup all pay nowt, en if thou ever does owt fer nowt allis do it for thee sen.
> 
> Hear all see all say nothing, eat all drink all pay nothing, and if you ever do something for nothing, always do it for your self


 I've never heard that Yorkshire motto. It's very confusing to new eyes. I googled the motto to try to understand it better, but came up with nothing but hearsay. Would you like to indulge me by explaining this, since you're the real thing, coming from Yorkshire?


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Is normal to use USTED when you talk with one person older than you,when you talk with one police or autority,when you talk with one person that is the first time you see,older people like me use USTED when I talk with my fathers, however now young people don't respect this use, and call your fathers or older people with the horrible word TUU.( maybe I am too old).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Allheart,
> 
> Never use vosotros here, apart from the plural use, I would not normally use Usted for any one, unless I was taking the fiss.


I think that's partly due to the links to South America that the Canaries have.
According to OH ustedes, and I suppose usted, is used in some parts of the south in preference to vosotros. Certainly an Adalucian neighbour of ours did.
Age, and the age you are perceived to be has a lot to do with it. Get past a certain age and you will hear it from more people in shops and sometimes from kids in the street who ask you the time kind of thing. 
The places where I think you will certainly hear usted is in public service areas like banks, tax office and hospitals.
OH is Spanish, well Basque, and he rarely uses usted. The one situation where he would definitely use it is with an obviously older person, 70/ 75++, who he didin't know.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Usted*



Pesky Wesky said:


> I think that's partly due to the links to South America that the Canaries have.
> According to OH ustedes, and I suppose usted, is used in some parts of the south in preference to vosotros. Certainly an Adalucian neighbour of ours did.
> Age, and the age you are perceived to be has a lot to do with it. Get past a certain age and you will hear it from more people in shops and sometimes from kids in the street who ask you the time kind of thing.
> The places where I think you will certainly hear usted is in public service areas like banks, tax office and hospitals.
> OH is Spanish, well Basque, and he rarely uses usted. The one situation where he would definitely use it is with an obviously older person, 70/ 75++, who he didin't know.


Not sure of the links to the Canaries, but in Mexico the ud is used all the time. Not so much with people of your own age, but most definitely with their ma's and pa's, with one's boss with unknown people and as a sign of respect to older people. The don and doña doesn't seem to be used too much either here at least in Cadiz. I find it quite liberating that I can use tu with just about everyone, but it did take some getting used to.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I've been discussing his very thing with some Spanish friends recently - & they say the same - usted is often used nowadays with a bit of a sneer in the tone, when showing disapproval of someone or their beliefs
> 
> a Spanish friend of mine told me a few years ago that it's sort of going out of fashion, except withe the very much older generations - he said that it was supposed to be used to show respect (in the past) but that he respects no-one more than his mother - & he uses tú with her
> 
> he's a courtroom lawyer - & the only time he uses usted is actually in court


Xabiachica, I'm still laughing at this, but wonder if perhaps the last line wasn't meant to be as funny as it sounds to me, in the context of this thread and the context of your post... So I read the last line as the lawyer showing the utmost disrespect in the courtroom.  



mickbcn said:


> Is normal to use USTED when you talk with one person older than you,when you talk with one police or autority,when you talk with one person that is the first time you see,


Hi Mickbcn. That's exactly how I learned when to use 'usted.'



mickbcn said:


> older people like me use USTED when I talk with my fathers, however now young people don't respect this use, and call your fathers or older people with the horrible word TUU.( maybe I am too old).


Maybe this is a exactly as you say, that people don't use 'usted' because of lack of respect. That is exactly what I was taught - that 'usted' is a sign of respect. I learned and spoke Spanish 30-35 years ago. Respect has certainly changed in the world since then, especially of people in authority.



Pesky Wesky said:


> I think that's partly due to the links to South America that the Canaries have.
> According to OH ustedes, and I suppose usted, is used in some parts of the south in preference to vosotros. Certainly an Adalucian neighbour of ours did.
> Age, and the age you are perceived to be has a lot to do with it. Get past a certain age and you will hear it from more people in shops and sometimes from kids in the street who ask you the time kind of thing.
> The places where I think you will certainly hear usted is in public service areas like banks, tax office and hospitals.
> OH is Spanish, well Basque, and he rarely uses usted. The one situation where he would definitely use it is with an obviously older person, 70/ 75++, who he didin't know.


Hi Pesky Wesky. I'm starting to think this is similar to the words 'sir' and 'ma'am' where I've lived most of my life in Southern Ontario... They are both terms that have been used like you say here. However, they're becoming less used, and often can be used as an insult. So ma'am is becoming derogatory, in the sense that it's an old lady. (God forbid should someone get old!!). Sir is becoming derogatory, in the sense that it's a male who is being aggressive and bossy - the same way ma'am is used as an insult. 



Justina said:


> Not sure of the links to the Canaries, but in Mexico the ud is used all the time. Not so much with people of your own age, but most definitely with their ma's and pa's, with one's boss with unknown people and as a sign of respect to older people. The don and doña doesn't seem to be used too much either here at least in Cadiz. I find it quite liberating that I can use tu with just about everyone, but it did take some getting used to.


Hi Justina. Some of the Spanish forms I've filled out used doña. I quite like the sounds of it.  

When I visited Mexico three years ago, that was my experienced too - I used usted. However, one of the times I went to the Dominican Republic, I called a guy usted and he blew a gasket at me, saying that that was only used if he was old, and he was not old. That guy is one of the reasons I'm asking this question. The other is my dear sweet neighbour who is in her 80s and I keep stumbling with the use of usted with her. I don't know if she's offended or not.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I think a good rule of thumb is to use tú with anyone that you would call by their first name, and usted with anyone that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with.

In the Seville area usted is certainly alive and well, as is vosotros. Just today I was called usted several times. Definitely feeling old here.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Hi All! Being Spanish, I use USTED always when talking to older people, I can't really bring myself to say 'tú' to someone I never met before if older than me, I can't just do it. It comes out like that. 

However, in Las Canarias, they use VOS, Usted or Ustedes all the time even within the family member, i.e. mothers to sons. It is thought to have some parallelisms with Latin America, as they use it there too. Another common thing in the Canaries is the ausence of the 'leismo' 'loismo' and 'laismo' (can't really explain it here and I don't want to confuse people) a sort example is 'Le ayudan' (a usted) o 'su hija' (de usted), it is sounds very formal but that is the way they talk, they also do this in some parts of Andalucia, like Sevilla. 

However, I think (for Allheart), you should learn to use USTED, I am not too sure everyone would be happy if you go around saying 'Tú' all of the time, specially if you have never met the person and if the person is older than you. 

Otherwise just say 'Te puedo tutear?' meaning 'Can I talk to you like if we known eath other for yonks' or something like that. 

It is true that we are losing it. Particularly young people are not using it much, and they take no notice, but I am sure the adults they are speaking to, they won't like it much. 

As a rule, I would say, if you are over 40, you should used 'su' and 'usted' when appropriate, otherwise you are going to come across badly.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> As a rule, I would say, if you are over 40, you should used 'su' and 'usted' when appropriate, otherwise you are going to come across badly.


Really?
Even in the context of someone who is obviously a learner?
As I said OH is Spanish, from a posh Bilbao family, and he rarely uses usted; only in the contexts I mentioned previously. But as I said I have noticed more people in Andalucia using usted and especially ustedes

The "¿Te puedo tutear?" is something I hear fairly frequently, not to me but around and about the last time being in a talk a went to where one of the people asking questions at the end asked the speaker. In that way the person who's being asked would come off pretty badly if they say no, but it does happen where this person wants to maintain authority or distance. It's often used in interviews where the person interviewing wants to say "I feel so comfortable with you I'd like to use this more friendly form". I woudn't say it to an elderly person although they might say it to you.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> Not sure of the links to the Canaries, but in Mexico the ud is used all the time.


The Canaries have lots of South American influences including language, food and Carnival.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Really?
> Even in the context of someone who is obviously a learner?
> As I said OH is Spanish, from a posh Bilbao family, and he rarely uses usted; only in the contexts I mentioned previously. But as I said I have noticed more people in Andalucia using usted and especially ustedes


Yes, I suspect that in a large part the different uses of usted is regional. My Spanish OH is from Sevilla city and he uses usted quite frequently. It's pretty much for anyone aged 40/50+ that he doesn't know - say in a shop or while waiting in line someplace. Plus of course for police, doctors, etc. But he uses tú with his parents and his grandmother. 

Around here some people incorrectly use a combination of ustedes and vosotros. So they'd say for example, '¿ustedes vais a venir?' But this usage is considered a little low class and/or very informal, kind of like using 'ain't' in English. (eg 'He ain't home.')


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

kalohi said:


> Yes, I suspect that in a large part the different uses of usted is regional. My Spanish OH is from Sevilla city and he uses usted quite frequently. It's pretty much for anyone aged 40/50+ that he doesn't know - say in a shop or while waiting in line someplace. Plus of course for police, doctors, etc. But he uses tú with his parents and his grandmother.
> 
> Around here some people incorrectly use a combination of ustedes and vosotros. So they'd say for example, '¿ustedes vais a venir?' But this usage is considered a little low class and/or very informal, kind of like using 'ain't' in English. (eg 'He ain't home.')


I found this very interesting, especially


> But he uses tú with his parents and his grandmother.


And


> Around here some people incorrectly use a combination of ustedes and vosotros. So they'd say for example, '¿ustedes vais a venir?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

It must be a regional thing. I will always tutear with business clients in Madrid. There is one Spanish bank I know of where the employees have to use usted when talking to their bosses, and they have to refer to them as Señor Juan or Señora Maria, etc. But that is generally considered very old fashioned now.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> I think a good rule of thumb is to use tú with anyone that you would call by their first name, and usted with anyone that you wouldn't feel comfortable doing that with.
> 
> In the Seville area usted is certainly alive and well, as is vosotros. Just today I was called usted several times. Definitely feeling old here.


Hi Kalohi. I never thought of that parallel in Canadian and American culture before - it's about being on a first-name basis. If you look back at what Mickbcn said, you can see that is exactly what he/she is saying. Since you're so close to me in Malaga, I'm going to take your advice and use usted. Thank you for your advice.



Lolito said:


> Hi All! Being Spanish, I use USTED always when talking to older people, I can't really bring myself to say 'tú' to someone I never met before if older than me, I can't just do it. It comes out like that.
> 
> However, in Las Canarias, they use VOS, Usted or Ustedes all the time even within the family member, i.e. mothers to sons. It is thought to have some parallelisms with Latin America, as they use it there too. Another common thing in the Canaries is the ausence of the 'leismo' 'loismo' and 'laismo' (can't really explain it here and I don't want to confuse people) a sort example is 'Le ayudan' (a usted) o 'su hija' (de usted), it is sounds very formal but that is the way they talk, they also do this in some parts of Andalucia, like Sevilla.
> 
> ...


Hi Lolito. Thank you for your detailed answer. I don't understand some of your second paragraph, as that is too advanced for me at this point. So I'll come back to that later in my learning Spanish. 

I didn't know about "Te puedo tutear." That's very useful.

Up to now, I've switched back and forth from tu and usted, and no one has corrected me. But I think that's more because people are being kind and are giving me some leeway, rather than that it doesn't matter. So I will take your advice to learn how to use usted. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> But as I said I have noticed more people in Andalucia using usted and especially ustedes.


That's what I'm seeing in this thread, like Kalohi says, that the use of usted is regional. Since I'm in Andalucia, I see there's no short-cut here.



Chopera said:


> It must be a regional thing. I will always tutear with business clients in Madrid. There is one Spanish bank I know of where the employees have to use usted when talking to their bosses, and they have to refer to them as Señor Juan or Señora Maria, etc. But that is generally considered very old fashioned now.


Hi Chopera. So Señor and Señora are still used in conversation? I learned when you're using these terms, then you would use the sentence as if it were 'usted.' Is that still how it's done?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The Canaries have lots of South American influences including language, food and Carnival.



I have to disagree, it was the Canary Islanders that colonized North and South America and therefor the influences went in the opposite direction.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

AllHeart said:


> ...
> Hi Chopera. So Señor and Señora are still used in conversation? I learned when you're using these terms, then you would use the sentence as if it were 'usted.' Is that still how it's done?


No it's not normally how it's done. The bank in question is old fashioned and conservative.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Gotcha. Finally!
> 
> 
> 
> I've never heard that Yorkshire motto. It's very confusing to new eyes. I googled the motto to try to understand it better, but came up with nothing but hearsay. Would you like to indulge me by explaining this, since you're the real thing, coming from Yorkshire?



Some Yorkshire people are known for having deep pockets, the motto is simple really, when in company of others, hear the conversation, see what is happening, but say nothing, eat everything that is offered, drink every thing that is offered, but pay nothing, and if ever you do something without payment make sure that you are doing it for your self.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Chopera said:


> No it's not normally how it's done. The bank in question is old fashioned and conservative.


Yes, I understood this is old fashioned and conservative. How does it sound to you when you hear this, in the midst of this not being done anymore?

So you're saying that I would use the verb tenses and everything else as 'tu' when saying using Señora and Señor?



Hepa said:


> Some Yorkshire people are known for having deep pockets, the motto is simple really, when in company of others, hear the conversation, see what is happening, but say nothing, eat everything that is offered, drink every thing that is offered, but pay nothing, and if ever you do something without payment make sure that you are doing it for your self.


Wow. Thanks for explaining that, Hepa. I really like that motto. I see it as three parts. I think I understand the first two:

_when in company of others, hear the conversation, see what is happening, but say nothing_
I think this speaks about the importance of listening. It brings to mind the expression that goes something like this... God gave us one mouth and two ears, so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.  

_eat everything that is offered, drink every thing that is offered, but pay nothing_
Correct me if I'm wrong... I was also raised that it is good manners as a guest to accept food and drink that is offered to you.

_if ever you do something without payment make sure that you are doing it for your self_
I'm not sure what this means. Would you indulge me some more by explaining that, please?


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Chopera said:


> It must be a regional thing. I will always tutear with business clients in Madrid. There is one Spanish bank I know of where the employees have to use usted when talking to their bosses, and they have to refer to them as Señor Juan or Señora Maria, etc. But that is generally considered very old fashioned now.


I think it's not only old fashioned but it sounds uneducated. Señora María would be common in villages when poorly educated people were referring to someone considered of a higher social class. But it's more correct to use Don / Doña before first names or full names and Señor / Señora before the surname.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

The other day we went to visit a house and an old couple (in their 80s probably) showed us around the house. During the 30 mins visit, I always used Usted or Ustedes when talking to them, I can't comprehend that someone will say 'tú' y 'vosotros' even young people, had they been in that situation. 

I wouldn't even be able to ask them if 'Os puedo tutear?' because I think it would sound pretty horrid to talk to them 'tuteando'. 

This is all on the basis that I don't know them from Adam and that they are much older than I am. Nothing to do with any other thing.

Señor y Señora is quite common. Don y Doña is less. I always get called Don José when I am on the phone with Telefonica or Orange, as most call centres are in Latin American countries and they do use DON quite a lot over there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I have to disagree, it was the Canary Islanders that colonized North and South America and therefor the influences went in the opposite direction.


I don't know which way the influences went Hepa, but it is very much commented on that the Canarians are South Americanish in their attitude, language (gua gua = autobus, papas = patatas etc) and some customs.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know which way the influences went Hepa, but it is very much commented on that the Canarians are South Americanish in their attitude, language (gua gua = autobus, papas = patatas etc) and some customs.


and the accents and even the looks.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, I understood this is old fashioned and conservative. How does it sound to you when you hear this, in the midst of this not being done anymore?
> 
> So you're saying that I would use the verb tenses and everything else as 'tu' when saying using Señora and Señor?
> 
> ...


Don't work for no pay, unless you are working for yourself


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Lolito said:


> and the accents and even the looks.


That is the Guanche and Bimbache influence.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Lolito said:


> Señor y Señora is quite common. Don y Doña is less. I always get called Don José when I am on the phone with Telefonica or Orange, as most call centres are in Latin American countries and they do use DON quite a lot over there.


Again it must be a regional thing, because I can easily think of 3 cases of people that are known around town as don xxxx. One is our local parish priest, one is the principal of the secondary school, and one was one of my daughter's teachers. They are all older men, and term is used as a sign of respect but also of admiration. So not all of the older teachers are called don xxx, for example - that honor only goes to the ones who are well liked and who put themselves out for the students.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

kalohi said:


> Again it must be a regional thing, because I can easily think of 3 cases of people that are known around town as don xxxx. One is our local parish priest, one is the principal of the secondary school, and one was one of my daughter's teachers. They are all older men, and term is used as a sign of respect but also of admiration. So not all of the older teachers are called don xxx, for example - that honor only goes to the ones who are well liked and who put themselves out for the students.


In my experience, the opposite was true. The teachers who were referred to as Don were not liked, certainly not respected, maybe feared. However it has changed in a very short time. When I was in EGB the older teachers were all Don or Doña, and none of them are remembered fondly by any of us. But when I went to the insti, all teachers were called by their first names except the only one whom no one liked, our Latin teacher. My exhusband has four elder siblings and one younger one. The four elder children have always called their parents usted but my exhusband and his younger brither have always used tú. To me, the use of usted sounded dreadful, as if there was no genuine fondness for their parents. None of my friends who are my age more or less, some quite a bit younger, use usted to their parents or their grandparents. Children today are not used to it either. I remember on one occasion one of my English friends was talking to my elder daughter and she asked first after her brothers, then her sister and finally she said "y su novio que tal?" and my daughter looked very puzzled and said she hasn't got a boyfriend! She didn't realise my friend was referring to her as usted which was what she had been taught in the UK!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

I know there is a rule about using English but this joke highlights the problem with usted and tú and I just love it so I hope the mods will allow me to post it:

El director general de un banco se preocupaba por un joven director estrella que después de un periodo de trabajar junto a él, sin parar nunca, ni para almorzar, empieza a ausentarse al mediodía. Entonces el director general del banco llama al detective privado del banco y le dice:

Siga a López una semana entera, no vaya a ser que ande en algo malo o sucio”.

El detective cumple con el cometido, vuelve e informa: “López sale normalmente al mediodía, toma su coche, va a su casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a su mujer, se fuma uno de sus excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar”.

Responde el director: Ah, bueno , menos mal, no hay nada malo en todo eso!!!!.

Luego el detective pregunta: “¿Puedo tutearlo, señor?”.

Sorprendido, el director responde: “Sí, cómo no”.

Y, entonces, el detective le dice: Te repito: López sale normalmente al mediodía, toma tú coche, va a tú casa a almorzar, luego le hace el amor a tú mujer, se fuma uno de tus excelentes habanos y vuelve a trabajar”.


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## Dunpleecin (Dec 20, 2012)

We have been going into the same cafe for months now, we probably go for a coffee two or three times a week. We know the name of the waitress who usually serves us. Indeed we usually never have to order, we sit down and often our usual coffees arrive.

But still, when we ask how she is or say thank you etc she uses usted and not tu, even though I always say tu to her.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I know there is a rule about using English but this joke highlights the problem with usted and tú and I just love it so I hope the mods will allow me to post it:
> 
> El director general de un banco se preocupaba por un joven director estrella que después de un periodo de trabajar junto a él, sin parar nunca, ni para almorzar, empieza a ausentarse al mediodía. Entonces el director general del banco llama al detective privado del banco y le dice:
> 
> ...


The best explanation yet!!



Dunpleecin said:


> We have been going into the same cafe for months now, we probably go for a coffee two or three times a week. We know the name of the waitress who usually serves us. Indeed we usually never have to order, we sit down and often our usual coffees arrive.
> 
> But still, when we ask how she is or say thank you etc she uses usted and not tu, even though I always say tu to her.


And she probably wouldn't expect you to use usted to her. She's giving you a service and you are (probably) older than her.


I had two usted/ tu experiences today.
I asked somebody about buses at a bus stop today and then I needed to get smth out of my bag and she insisted that I sit down using usted. I wasn't too pleased. At least nobody got up and offered me their place on the bus, then I'd have been really worried!
Then coming out of Carrefour where they are changing their company colours and logos, it says "Gracias por tu compra", and by saying tu and not su they are making a point - desenfadado or cercano might be the word/s in Spanish


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

All the languages I know have two modes of address. German 'Sie' and 'Du', Italian 'Lei' and 'tu'. French ''vous' and 'tu' and Czech and Polish 'Pan' and ''ty'.

I think that after spending time in a country and getting more comfortable with the language you get a 'feel' for what is appropriate in any particular context.
When first conversing with Spanish acquaintances who become friends we've usually started with 'Usted' then slip into 'tu' after nattering for a while. Younger Spanish men I know slightly tend to use 'Usted' until I tell them to tutear but I know one who kept slipping back into 'Usted' because, he said, it's respectful.

Most younger people in France, Germany and Italy habitually use the second person familiar but I found more formality in Poland and the Czech Republic, certainly amongst older people. I remember getting to know a Czech guy, someone my Czech friend had known well for years...and she was amazed to learn that I called him 'Ota'....she called him 'Mr. Vesely'.

What I like about using 'pan' or 'pane' for women is that you can insult people in great style as 'pan' means 'the gentleman' or 'the lady', in the third person.


So, in a bus, you could say: 'Could the thoughtless anti-social gentleman stop being an inconsiderate pig and remove his bag from the seat so I could sit down?' to which he could reply 'The lady's comfort is of less importance to me that the precious object I have in this bag'.
Or similar.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

How about vale and vale and vale otra vez? Everytime one says something that the other agrees with it is vale. Is this only where I am or common all over Spain?The other that confused me was venga as like adios although adios is common too and come out like adiooos.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> How about vale and vale and vale otra vez? Everytime one says something that the other agrees with it is vale. Is this only where I am or common all over Spain?The other that confused me was venga as like adios although adios is common too and come out like adiooos.


_Vale_ is certainly common in Catalonia (where I learnt it) and Madrid.
When I first came to Spain I was in Valls, Tarragona and I remember my Colombian boyfriend phoning and getting annoyed with me because I was using _vale_ instead of the more Colombian _cierto_.
Venga like adios? Not familiar with that.
What got me (and still does to tell the truth) is _adios_ used as a greeting as in _I'm greeting you, but not stopping for a chaaaattt_!!!


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*adios*



Pesky Wesky said:


> _Vale_ is certainly common in Catalonia (where I learnt it) and Madrid.
> When I first came to Spain I was in Valls, Tarragona and I remember my Colombian boyfriend phoning and getting annoyed with me because I was using _vale_ instead of the more Colombian _cierto_.
> Venga like adios? Not familiar with that.
> What got me (and still does to tell the truth) is _adios_ used as a greeting as in _I'm greeting you, but not stopping for a chaaaattt_!!!


We hear adios all the time and they wave their hands. It is certainly not dismissive.
I have cetainly given up hasta luego and nos vemos pronto 'even if we don't 'and the ciao from more southern parts of Latin America but commonly used in Mexico, although heard it here quite often.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I had to _usted_ somebody this week, when a prospective buyer, aged 80-odd, came calling. 
For those who don't know, my house is for sale!
It only seemed correct to show respect. As we got to know each other better I referred to him as Don Fernando. Maybe this show of respect worked. I banked his deposit cheque this morning!   
It turns out he used to live in the next road and is returning from Sevilla to his roots and to be close to family and friends. He was initially interested in another house close by but the agent suggested mine, on the market for 25% more, and we made a deal, the agent reducing her commission, me dropping the price and him upping his offer. Despite selling for a lot less than the 'value' of a few years ago, I feel very fortunate, when I see so many houses on the market and so many repossessions. My house had been on the market for 3 years and 3 months, not as long as many.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Madliz said:


> I had to _usted_ somebody this week, when a prospective buyer, aged 80-odd, came calling.
> For those who don't know, my house is for sale!
> It only seemed correct to show respect. As we got to know each other better I referred to him as Don Fernando. Maybe this show of respect worked. I banked his deposit cheque this morning!
> It turns out he used to live in the next road and is returning from Sevilla to his roots and to be close to family and friends. He was initially interested in another house close by but the agent suggested mine, on the market for 25% more, and we made a deal, the agent reducing her commission, me dropping the price and him upping his offer. Despite selling for a lot less than the 'value' of a few years ago, I feel very fortunate, when I see so many houses on the market and so many repossessions. My house had been on the market for 3 years and 3 months, not as long as many.


You must be very happy! Well done to you. Do you have a house picked out in the Malaga yet?!
We have new neighbours, the street rumour being that they gave it away the price was so low. They are one of the sets of neighbours that we didn't get on too well with (a difference of opinion of hedges...). OH was having a smoke in the garden and overheard a phone conversation from the new neighbour.

Sí, sí alguna ****dita nos han hecho - han llevado los cajones 

Yes, the sellers of the house have taken the drawers of the cabinets with them! We are guessing upstairs in the bedrooms 'cos the kitchen ones you have to unscrew from the rails, however, if you are weird enough to take drawers you might well want to invest a couple of hours taking screws out, mightn't you?

I told you it was them, not us!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> We hear adios all the time and they wave their hands. It is certainly not dismissive.
> I have cetainly given up hasta luego and nos vemos pronto 'even if we don't 'and the ciao from more southern parts of Latin America but commonly used in Mexico, although heard it here quite often.


OK, but venga = adios??

Oh, you mean at the end of a conversation you might say
¡Bueno, nos vemos!
¡Venga!
Like that?


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Venga*



Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, but venga = adios??
> 
> Oh, you mean at the end of a conversation you might say
> ¡Bueno, nos vemos!
> ...


Yes, exactly.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> I know there is a rule about using English but this joke highlights the problem with usted and tú and I just love it so I hope the mods will allow me to post it:
> 
> El director general de un banco se preocupaba por un joven director estrella que después de un periodo de trabajar junto a él, sin parar nunca, ni para almorzar, empieza a ausentarse al mediodía. Entonces el director general del banco llama al detective privado del banco y le dice:
> 
> ...


the best illustration of the use of su & tú ever - & of the need to know context!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> Yes, exactly.


Oh, now I've got you.

I use that all the time.

OH does too, come to think of it...


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

In our village (Catalan country) all the silver tops greet you with Adieu which is Catalan for goodbye, not Hola. Nobody knows why, it's just one of those things the older generation prefer.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

More than ADIOS, 'venga' means 'I've finished talking to you, so I am off, so let me go... and stop bothering me..' sort of thing. Lol! 

I use 'buenoooooo' in that context too. Rather than adios, I say 'buenooooooooo'.... and off I go!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> ...and if ever you do something without payment make sure that you are doing it for your self.





Hepa said:


> Don't work for no pay, unless you are working for yourself


 That makes sense now. Thanks for taking the time to explain that. So I understand from this that someone from Yorkshire would not say they do "volunteer work." They would stick to the true concept of being a volunteer, that being you're doing something because it is something you yourself believe in - your own beliefs, yourself.

Like on the forum, people are volunteering in helping each other out because the forum is something we believe in. So as a Yorkshireman on the forum, you would not call what you're doing on the forum as 'volunteer work' - including taking time out of your day and space in your brain to explain the Yorkshire motto to me?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

As is often the case when I learn, I think of that expression that goes something like this... The more you learn, the more you realise you need to learn. 

So now I've decided to learn not only the use of usted in my area, but also doñ, doña, señor and señora. 

Through this discussion, I've learned enough about how to ask in Spanish about the controversy of the use of usted. So I asked one of my neighbours this morning about this. She's a young Spaniard who has grown up in this area, and I've met her parents and grandmother, who are all Spanish. So I figure she's a good bet on who to ask this advice. I told her about what we were discussing here on the forum, and she said that in this area it's not very strict, but it is better that I do as I learned growing up. So I should always use usted with older people and in the formal situations I've been in, at the bank, city hall, police station, shops, etc. She said regarding meeting a person for the first time, I really should use usted also, although it's not as common anymore. I didn't ask her about the uses of usted, since they're not an issue right now in my life.

About meeting a person for the first time and calling them usted, as I learned it way back in the old days, this is not a class thing or a service thing. This is about respect, like Kalohi said about being on first-name basis. Mickbcn also said this, about usted being for meeting a person the first time. Perhaps it is because we live in a world where people want to be living 'classless and free' (to quote a great songwriter) that we are losing 'usted.' But usted is not supposed to be a class issue.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Lolito said:


> Señor y Señora is quite common. Don y Doña is less. I always get called Don José when I am on the phone with Telefonica or Orange, as most call centres are in Latin American countries and they do use DON quite a lot over there.


Almost all our neighbours use 'tu' and his first name when talking to my OH, but I get 'usted' and 'Señora', from everybody from children to people older than me - and he's 7 years older than me!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Almost all our neighbours use 'tu' and his first name when talking to my OH, but I get 'usted' and 'Señora', from everybody from children to people older than me - and he's 7 years older than me!


My Venezuelan neighbour calls me Meeeeeeeester  'cos he knows I am English.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Almost all our neighbours use 'tu' and his first name when talking to my OH, but I get 'usted' and 'Señora', from everybody from children to people older than me - and he's 7 years older than me!


 Hi Lynn. You live close to me, so that gives me hope in the preservation of the word usted. Thank you! 



Hepa said:


> My Venezuelan neighbour calls me Meeeeeeeester  'cos he knows I am English.


That's absolutely hilarious!


You guys have got me thinking on something. To finish my thought, could you help me out with a translation, please? How would you say to someone who you want to call usted that you respect them? Is "Yo respeto usted" correct?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> You guys have got me thinking on something. To finish my thought, could you help me out with a translation, please? How would you say to someone who you want to call usted that you respect them? Is "Yo respeto usted" correct?


Almost correct. It's "Yo respeto a usted."


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> Almost correct. It's "Yo respeto a usted."


 Thanks a lot, Kalohi. That's the last piece of info needed to finish my thoughts.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

kalohi said:


> Almost correct. It's "Yo respeto a usted."


Almost correct  "yo _lo/la_ respeto"


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

anles said:


> Almost correct  Yo _le_ respeto (a usted).


Thanks, Anles. So would you actually say, yo le respeto a usted? What I mean to ask is that you put "a usted" in brackets, so I'm wondering if a person would actually "a usted." What I'd like to know is how to use usted in the actual sentence of saying that you respect that person. Do you know what I mean?

I see you just edited your post to remove the "a usted." So could you come up with a sentence that uses usted, pretty please?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> In our village (Catalan country) all the silver tops greet you with Adieu which is Catalan for goodbye, not Hola. Nobody knows why, it's just one of those things the older generation prefer.


Uhmm. .. in Catalán it's adéu, and it is goodbye, it's just that when people in the street say it it's usually like what I said in a previous post about adios. People are saying "I see you, I greet you, I'm not stopping!!!"

When I lived in Catalonia everyone said it, now it's only the older ones??


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uhmm. .. in Catalán it's adéu, and it is goodbye, it's just that when people in the street say it it's usually like what I said in a previous post about adios. People are saying "I see you, I greet you, I'm not stopping!!!"
> 
> When I lived in Catalonia everyone said it, now it's only the older ones??


Your explanation makes sense now, nobody I've asked has explained it.

I've noticed the old uns say it a lot and some of the youngsters but not really anyone in the middle. And so far in my limited experience only in the village I live in. The nearest town is only 10 minutes away but I've not heard anyone say it there. Where in Catalonia did you live, was it a big place or small?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> Your explanation makes sense now, nobody I've asked has explained it.
> 
> I've noticed the old uns say it a lot and some of the youngsters but not really anyone in the middle. And so far in my limited experience only in the village I live in. The nearest town is only 10 minutes away but I've not heard anyone say it there. Where in Catalonia did you live, was it a big place or small?


Valls, where they do the human tower thing (xiquets). It was a small town, but I believe it grew a lot during the boom years before the recession


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Uhmm. .. in Catalán it's adéu, and it is goodbye, it's just that when people in the street say it it's usually like what I said in a previous post about adios. People are saying "I see you, I greet you, I'm not stopping!!!"
> 
> When I lived in Catalonia everyone said it, now it's only the older ones??


Where I live, many of the older people use "vaya con Dios" (go with God, of course) in those circumstances.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Where I live, many of the older people use "vaya con Dios" (go with God, of course) in those circumstances.


Lynn, I didn't know that is how it is being used. I've heard vaya con Dios here too. Where I grew up in Canada, at the end of a conversation, a person may say Godspeed or God bless, which is similar to vaya con Dios. So I'm getting the brush-off here when people are saying vaya con Dios? I hope that expression hasn't been turned around that way. That would definitely be very twisted.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Just heard in the street. One man leaving another's house
Man A Bueno, hasta luego
Man B Venga
Man A Venga


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> Lynn, I didn't know that is how it is being used. I've heard vaya con Dios here too. Where I grew up in Canada, at the end of a conversation, a person may say Godspeed or God bless, which is similar to vaya con Dios. So I'm getting the brush-off here when people are saying vaya con Dios? I hope that expression hasn't been turned around that way. That would definitely be very twisted.


"

No, don't worry, it's not getting the brush-off. Here, it's customary to greet just about everybody you meet, whether you know them or not. Some people say buenos dias or buenas tardes, some just buenos or buenas, some say adios and it's mainly the older people who might say vaya con Dios. If I say Hola or buenos dias, but it's not somebody I'm going to be having a conversation with, they'll often say adios or vaya con Dios in reply.

I've not heard it used at the end of an actual conversation, I don't think. Then it's usually "Bueno, me voy", "venga" or "hasta luego" - or more often just a'luego as it's usually shortened to down here.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Valls, where they do the human tower thing (xiquets). It was a small town, but I believe it grew a lot during the boom years before the recession


I haven't heard castells called xiquets before. I can't get enough of them, so exciting, brave and skillful!


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Where I live, many of the older people use "vaya con Dios" (go with God, of course) in those circumstances.


I've always read 'adios' as 'a dios', i.e. to God


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> I haven't heard castells called xiquets before. I can't get enough of them, so exciting, brave and skillful!


_xiquets_ is the catalán or valenciano word for _children_ or _boys_


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> I haven't heard castells called xiquets before. I can't get enough of them, so exciting, brave and skillful!


You're right the towers are castells. I didn't remember and for some reason remembered "xiquets" which is something Catalan and something to do with the towers. Maybe the group of people who do it are called xiquets???


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> _xiquets_ is the catalán or valenciano word for _children_ or _boys_


Makes sense. Chiquillo in Spanish or chiqui for short


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## JamieLoco (Sep 27, 2014)

I would agree with the general thought here that "usted" is for only formal situations. Then it is used rarely if ever today.

In South America usted is used in all business situations especially where you want to attempt to take control of the situation. Also, in South America it is used a lot because of the supposed rigid Class System that exists here and especially among older people.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> "
> 
> No, don't worry, it's not getting the brush-off. Here, it's customary to greet just about everybody you meet, whether you know them or not. Some people say buenos dias or buenas tardes, some just buenos or buenas, some say adios and it's mainly the older people who might say vaya con Dios. If I say Hola or buenos dias, but it's not somebody I'm going to be having a conversation with, they'll often say adios or vaya con Dios in reply.
> 
> I've not heard it used at the end of an actual conversation, I don't think. Then it's usually "Bueno, me voy", "venga" or "hasta luego" - or more often just a'luego as it's usually shortened to down here.


 Phew! That really weirded me out, to think that it was a brush-off. My neighbour always says vaya con Dios after we talk, and I say it back to her. Yes, she's indeed older - well over 80. So if it had the reverse meaning, we're not as neighbourly as I thought.  So, again, thank you for your clarification.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

JamieLoco said:


> I would agree with the general thought here that "usted" is for only formal situations. Then it is used rarely if ever today.
> 
> In South America usted is used in all business situations especially where you want to attempt to take control of the situation. Also, in South America it is used a lot because of the supposed rigid Class System that exists here and especially among older people.


 Hi JamieLoco. Usted is not meant as a class thing, but it seems that somehow it's been confused as such. It's about respect. So regardless of a person's class, when you first meet them, usted is appropriate - in the old days, anyway. 

I was just talking this afternoon with one of my friends back in Canada. She's from Cali, Columbia, which is a large city. She said it's the same there, as to the rules of using usted in the past were the same as Spain. But she says, like here, it has become more and more out of fashion, so that it's now only used in very formal situations and for older people. 

With actions of respect in the world having gone upside down or by the wayside, and with meanings meaning the opposite of what they used to mean, it's a very confusing world for me.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> I've always read 'adios' as 'a dios', i.e. to God


 Hi Helenameva. That's cool! I never thought of that. So I looked it up, and Merriam-Webster agrees with you (scroll down to "origin of adios, Spanish"):

Adios - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I've been thinking about how this may be related to mass, where at the end of the mass the priest asks us to go with God - saying it in one way or another. This is not just Catholic mass, as I've heard it in interdemoninational services and other faiths. Just a thought. You guys are always making me think. I like that.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Hi JamieLoco. Usted is not meant as a class thing, but it seems that somehow it's been confused as such. It's about respect. So regardless of a person's class, when you first meet them, usted is appropriate - in the old days, anyway.
> 
> I was just talking this afternoon with one of my friends back in Canada. She's from Cali, Columbia, which is a large city. She said it's the same there, as to the rules of using usted in the past were the same as Spain. But she says, like here, it has become more and more out of fashion, so that it's now only used in very formal situations and for older people.
> 
> With actions of respect in the world having gone upside down or by the wayside, and with meanings meaning the opposite of what they used to mean, it's a very confusing world for me.


I used to live in Cali, Colombia. I had a Colombian boyfriend who used "vos" which I just loveeed


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I used to live in Cali, Colombia. I had a Colombian boyfriend who used "vos" which I just loveeed


 You honestly lived there?! OMG it's such a small world! I would love being called vos by my boyfriend too, indeed! That respect thing, eh?

This friend of mine from Cali and her husband are two of the most beautiful people I've met, and their daughter just melts my heart. If they're any indication of people from Cali... Well, 'nuf said.

So did you love it there in Cali? Were you studying or working there, or just hanging out?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> You honestly lived there?! OMG it's such a small world! I would love being called vos by my boyfriend too, indeed! That respect thing, eh?
> 
> This friend of mine from Cali and her husband are two of the most beautiful people I've met, and their daughter just melts my heart. If they're any indication of people from Cali... Well, 'nuf said.
> 
> So did you love it there in Cali? Were you studying or working there, or just hanging out?


I was working, teaching in a bilingual school and I _*loved*_ it. Great people, great place - great life.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I was working, teaching in a bilingual school and I _*loved*_ it. Great people, great place - great life.


Sounds like a great slice of your life. Fab. 

So, as a Spanish teacher, what do you think about the loss of the use of the word 'usted?' In case you haven't noticed already, as a person who is a lover of languages, words, traditions and cultures, it's ripping my heart out!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Sounds like a great slice of your life. Fab.
> 
> So, as a Spanish teacher, what do you think about the loss of the use of the word 'usted?' In case you haven't noticed already, as a person who is a lover of languages, words, traditions and cultures, it's ripping my heart out!


No!
English teacher, not Spanish. That's xabiachica.
You already have my comments on "usted"!

Cali certainly was a very special "slice of my life". Made me who I am today


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No!
> English teacher, not Spanish. That's xabiachica.


 Sorry. I wasn't get you mixed up with Xabiachica. You two are very different, both in a good way. I wasn't assuming. Brings to mind that expression... When you assume, you make an *ahem* out of u and me (spells assume).  



Pesky Wesky said:


> You already have my comments on "usted"!


 I read your posts again, and can't find the answer. I don't think anyone has commented on this. So my question to you was phrased too vaguely. I'll try again...

What do you think about the loss of a custom of respect and the loss of the use of a word, when we lose the word 'usted' in Spain and also in at least parts of South America? (As an English teacher, please don't nail me for a run-on sentence )


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Sorry. I wasn't get you mixed up with Xabiachica. You two are very different, both in a good way. I wasn't assuming. Brings to mind that expression... When you assume, you make an *ahem* out of u and me (spells assume).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, sorry sorry I didn't read your post correctly. You were asking me about the _loss_ of usted, not the _use_ of usted.
I don't really have any thoughts other than it makes things a lot easier for us foreigners!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry, sorry sorry I didn't read your post correctly. You were asking me about the _loss_ of usted, not the _use_ of usted.


 That's okay. I see what you mean. Just one little misread word can make a huge difference, eh? 



Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't really have any thoughts other than it makes things a lot easier for us foreigners!


 You're hilarious! 

I'm a Canadian English language activist. I'm thinking of a transfer here in Spain to becoming a Spanish language activist, starting with 'usted.' What do you think?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> That's okay. I see what you mean. Just one little misread word can make a huge difference, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when I'm teaching, I make beginners aware of usted, but don't actually use it during the lessons for quite a long time - & by the time I do, they are comfortable with the 3rd person conjugations, & only have to add the usted or ustedes to what they are saying  

I hardly ever use it, as I said, tending to take my lead from whoever I'm speaking with in social sitiations - if they use usted, then so will I - but I honestly can't remember the last time I had to use it

quirkily - one local supermarket chain has all the staff use usted with the customers - even though their adverts are all in the tú :confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> That's okay. I see what you mean. Just one little misread word can make a huge difference, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An interest in the native language is always positive. Just don't get obsessionated as many Spanish people would say


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Usted*



Pesky Wesky said:


> An interest in the native language is always positive. Just don't get obsessionated as many Spanish people would say


Exactly. Take your cue from the person to whom you are speaking. I did the usted business when I arrived here and realised people, much younger than myself, were quite happily using tu to me, so thought well I like that. 
I didn't mind the ud in Mexico cos I learnt that it was a way of keeping a distance from people that I wasn't sure of or didn't want to know.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> An interest in the native language is always positive. Just don't get obsessionated as many Spanish people would say


Yes, of course. I have too many interests to get obsessed with any one of them - especially now that I'm in Spain. Woot! 



Justina said:


> Exactly. Take your cue from the person to whom you are speaking. I did the usted business when I arrived here and realised people, much younger than myself, were quite happily using tu to me, so thought well I like that.


Yes, I'm taking my cues from those around me, which is why I'm asking on the forum. I really appreciate your guidance on this.



Justina said:


> I didn't mind the ud in Mexico cos I learnt that it was a way of keeping a distance from people that I wasn't sure of or didn't want to know.


I never thought of people using usted for people you weren't sure of or you didn't want to know. That makes sense. So that's kind of a negative meaning for usted.



xabiachica said:


> when I'm teaching, I make beginners aware of usted, but don't actually use it during the lessons for quite a long time - & by the time I do, they are comfortable with the 3rd person conjugations, & only have to add the usted or ustedes to what they are saying
> 
> I hardly ever use it, as I said, tending to take my lead from whoever I'm speaking with in social sitiations - if they use usted, then so will I - but I honestly can't remember the last time I had to use it
> 
> quirkily - one local supermarket chain has all the staff use usted with the customers - even though their adverts are all in the tú :confused2:


I'm thinking that might be another big reason why usted is being lost - it's just really difficult to use. That's why I started this thread, hoping it was okay as a beginner to not use it. 

Re the supermarket... I'm wondering if it's the same as I see where I grew up in Canada, where businesses advertise to be your family and friends. One way is to use the first name in business. Lose usted, and Spanish business is your instant family and friends. 

When I say I'm a Canadian English language activist, this is mostly said with tongue in cheek. Like the other advocacy work I do, it's about generating discussion, and no one is boss, meaning that no matter how high the advocacy work goes, people are always at a Round Table. The highest level I got with that work was writing an article about "eh" for an American business I worked with. It was a really funny article. 

For Canadian English, my main focus is four words/phrases that used to be a dead give-away that a person is Canadian: I'm sorry, thank you, eh and please.

Re the usted word, I'm thinking about how the loss of usted is a reflection of the loss of respect in the world. I'm thinking on a wink campaign to bring back usted. The idea is not necessarily to bring back usted, but to talk about respect in the world. The campaign would be for Spain, although it could go international. Since we're on an international forum, I could argue that it's already gone international. 

The campaign may end with this post, which is big enough for me. But I've got some T-shirt designs on the go. 

Today I'm hanging out with my friend here in Spain who was my Airbnb host. We've become close friends. He's from Venezuela, so I'm going to ask him if usted is being lost in Venezuela also. To me, this loss of usted could very well be an international crisis!


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## Allay sea (Aug 22, 2014)

This is nothing to do with the question asked concerning Usted, but when I was in Mazarron, on leaving a shop I said adios and the shop assistant replied ha lo. I thought I was hearing things but someone explained it is an abbreviation for hasta Luego. I got a laugh from it anyway.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I've noticed that people here (Cadiz province) tend to use _ustedes_ insted of _vosotros _for the informal plural, like in Latin America. Don't know how widespread that is?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Allay sea said:


> This is nothing to do with the question asked concerning Usted, but when I was in Mazarron, on leaving a shop I said adios and the shop assistant replied ha lo. I thought I was hearing things but someone explained it is an abbreviation for hasta Luego. I got a laugh from it anyway.


Here it's "ta lueo" - regional differences!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I've noticed that people here (Cadiz province) tend to use _ustedes_ insted of _vosotros _for the informal plural, like in Latin America. Don't know how widespread that is?


An andalucian neighbour of ours does that, but Madridleños and Bilbainos don't


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm picking up on the regional slang here too. 

Dio = short for vaya con Dios (go with God).

Buena = means good = also short for buenos dias (good day).

Logo = short for hasta luego (until later/see you later) = something completely different in English. 

I figured a way around the usted problem and many other problems as a newcomer to Spain. This is the key thing to say: "soy nueva" (I'm new) accompanied by a quick rolling of the eyes, a smile and a little laugh. As a male, one would say "soy nuevo." If you're a visible minority like I am, this adds to the joke, and people really get a kick out of this. To really beef up the joke, as a visible minority, I point to my face.  This has gotten me out of every problem so far - from not being able to understand someone speaking Spanish, to getting lost and confused with directions, to locking myself out of my apartment... The sky's the limit with this excuse in just two words!

I also figured a way around the usted problem, since it's so confusing to use this and so confusing as to when to use this. I will say that I'm confused as to how and when to use usted, so I've decided to use both tu and usted in the same conversation, and therefore I hope to not offend anyone. (This also makes my life easier so I don't have to stress about perfecting how to use usted.) To explain this when accompanied by "soy nueva" is a great ice breaker. 

P.S. My Venezuelan friend loves the wink campaign for usted. We're almost done designing our T-shirts and launching our campaign for this thread.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> I've decided to use both tu and usted in the same conversation, and therefore I hope to not offend anyone. (This also makes my life easier so I don't have to stress about perfecting how to use usted.)


Why not use _tusted_?

lol


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Brangus said:


> Why not use _tusted_?
> 
> lol


Brangus, I love that! You're so lucky to get that in on time, so that I can incorporate that into the T-shirt designs. LOL! 

We're having a lot of fun with the T-shirt designs. The goal is to get the gist of all the conversations in this thread into T-shirts. I hope you guys like them.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

The T-shirts are done for the Usted/Tu Wink Campaign! I've been laid up with severe back pain the past week, so these got delayed. 

Remember this is just in fun - something you might want to think about. 

The idea behind the wink is that a wink can mean many things. What is a wink to you? Like the wink, respect can mean many things. What is respect to you? Who is deserving of respect? Do you have to use usted to show respect?

Here are some pictures with winks, in which you can ask the questions about usted/tu, respect and a wink.

Here are some pictures for the project. In my next post, I'll post the five T-shirts that are done.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Here are the five T-shirts. I hope these make you laugh!

Translations:

Estoy dispuesto a ayudarte = I am at your disposal to help you.
Estoy abierto a darte = I am open to give to you. 
Yo puedo ayudarte = I can help you.
Yo le respeto a usted = I respect you (considered very subservient).
Yo le respeto a tusted = Same as above, using Brangus' word "tusted."


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