# German Residence Denied



## dbandsg

Germany Apartment Purchase Disaster

2013 we purchased an apartment in anticipation of receiving a residence permit to begin our retirement years in Hof, Germany where two daughters live. We chose Hof, Germany for our retirement residence because of the close proximity to our daughters; also because of our passion for Germany.
We purchased this apartment for 50,000 Euros; a full 15,000 Euros below market value. We based the purchase of this apartment on the relevant notion that having an address would be an extreme benefit to the residence permit process.
Imagine our shock and surprise to learn from our daughter the result of her visit to the local Hof Ausländerbehörde on our behalf to seek from them information regarding our process of applying for a residence permit. We have been involved with this process for many months via a number of different methods including:
1)	Many email communications to and from the Chicago German Consulate. Sometimes not even receiving replies from them regarding my many questions.
2)	Calling the Chicago German Consulate on numerous occasions and I rarely ever got through to talk with anyone.
3)	Extensive research on the internet across many different websites, including but not limited to the German Embassy’s official websites.
4)	Many forum communications with American citizens who have moved to Germany and received residence permits and the process they encountered.

Among the many questions we posed to the Consulate and the forums was the all-important question regarding the reason or purpose for which we wanted a German residence permit and in all instances we always maintained we have family who live in Hof and thus a strong desire to live there in our retirement years. We also obviously stated that we were not going to Germany for any education or employment and thus the only remaining possibility left was for family.

When our daughter went to the Ausländerbehörde she came away from that meeting with a clear, persuasive and intense admonition from the Ausländerbehörde that we would not be awarded a residence permit. Who better to acknowledge whether or not we could receive this permit except the Ausländerbehörde? It is quite puzzling however that they made this determination without ever seeing our applications and supporting documents.

Now we must sell our Hof apartment and because of the laws pertaining to length of time living in this residence coupled with the inability to sell this apartment at any profit whatsoever we are consigned to sell it at the same price we purchased, plus including close to 4,000 Euros in taxes and fees for all the processes involved during the purchase procedure. It is now our understanding that we sell it for the same price plus again add in taxes and fees associated with this selling procedure.

It is evident that we have lost an enormous amount of Euros due to the Hof, Germany’s Ausländerbehörde refusal to accept us and work with helping us to gain a residence permit, but it is Hof and Germany who will not gain any profit to their economies because we will not be living in Hof and spending our retirement income in their local economy. So who is losing more? But for us we truly have gained because now we are not consigned to having to purchase Germany’s excessively priced private health insurance, which would be a monthly deficit to our retirement income of just short of $1,000 per month.

Now we are looking elsewhere for a location close to our daughters in Hof where we can comfortably retire and have found such a place in a country where the private health insurance is not only considerably less expensive, but also is a coverage that rivals that of Germany.

Why do I write this expose? Certainly not to bring any justice to our situation as that is well past any resolution, but to expose this alarming practice by those in German government who would without hesitancy for example allow immigrants to come in from Turkey while disallowing American citizens. This is a travesty, but honestly in light of the excessive German private health insurance rates it is welcome.


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## James3214

Thanks for the posting your experience.
I must admit I am a bit surprised but know that a refusal does often happen, but Í would be interested to know a bit more.
Did you make an official application for the residence visa or decide not to after your first meeting? 
Are you already receiving pension income?
Hof is quite close to the Czech border. Did you also look at retiring there?


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## dbandsg

Hello James,
We decided not to go through with the formalities and file the application based on the Ausländerbehörde's response to our daughter. Pension income doesn't start until next year. The jury is still out on the next step, but one thing is for sure, no matter what it takes we move from the US because family is there, not here. So until I know for sure what is next I hesitate to say anything because we just don't know.
Now I am simply looking at this as the silver lining in the cloud that rained on my parade what with the high cost of German health insurance.


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## ALKB

dbandsg said:


> Germany Apartment Purchase Disaster
> 
> 2013 we purchased an apartment in anticipation of receiving a residence permit to begin our retirement years in Hof, Germany where two daughters live. We chose Hof, Germany for our retirement residence because of the close proximity to our daughters; also because of our passion for Germany.
> We purchased this apartment for 50,000 Euros; a full 15,000 Euros below market value. We based the purchase of this apartment on the relevant notion that having an address would be an extreme benefit to the residence permit process.
> Imagine our shock and surprise to learn from our daughter the result of her visit to the local Hof Ausländerbehörde on our behalf to seek from them information regarding our process of applying for a residence permit. We have been involved with this process for many months via a number of different methods including:
> 1)	Many email communications to and from the Chicago German Consulate. Sometimes not even receiving replies from them regarding my many questions.
> 2)	Calling the Chicago German Consulate on numerous occasions and I rarely ever got through to talk with anyone.
> 3)	Extensive research on the internet across many different websites, including but not limited to the German Embassy’s official websites.
> 4)	Many forum communications with American citizens who have moved to Germany and received residence permits and the process they encountered.
> 
> Among the many questions we posed to the Consulate and the forums was the all-important question regarding the reason or purpose for which we wanted a German residence permit and in all instances we always maintained we have family who live in Hof and thus a strong desire to live there in our retirement years. We also obviously stated that we were not going to Germany for any education or employment and thus the only remaining possibility left was for family.
> 
> When our daughter went to the Ausländerbehörde she came away from that meeting with a clear, persuasive and intense admonition from the Ausländerbehörde that we would not be awarded a residence permit. Who better to acknowledge whether or not we could receive this permit except the Ausländerbehörde? It is quite puzzling however that they made this determination without ever seeing our applications and supporting documents.
> 
> Now we must sell our Hof apartment and because of the laws pertaining to length of time living in this residence coupled with the inability to sell this apartment at any profit whatsoever we are consigned to sell it at the same price we purchased, plus including close to 4,000 Euros in taxes and fees for all the processes involved during the purchase procedure. It is now our understanding that we sell it for the same price plus again add in taxes and fees associated with this selling procedure.
> 
> It is evident that we have lost an enormous amount of Euros due to the Hof, Germany’s Ausländerbehörde refusal to accept us and work with helping us to gain a residence permit, but it is Hof and Germany who will not gain any profit to their economies because we will not be living in Hof and spending our retirement income in their local economy. So who is losing more? But for us we truly have gained because now we are not consigned to having to purchase Germany’s excessively priced private health insurance, which would be a monthly deficit to our retirement income of just short of $1,000 per month.
> 
> Now we are looking elsewhere for a location close to our daughters in Hof where we can comfortably retire and have found such a place in a country where the private health insurance is not only considerably less expensive, but also is a coverage that rivals that of Germany.
> 
> Why do I write this expose? Certainly not to bring any justice to our situation as that is well past any resolution, but to expose this alarming practice by those in German government who would without hesitancy for example allow immigrants to come in from Turkey while disallowing American citizens. This is a travesty, but honestly in light of the excessive German private health insurance rates it is welcome.


Owning property in Germany does not give you an advantage when applying for a residence permit and there is no retirement permit as such in Germany.

For retirement purposes, cases are decided on an individual basis. I would not base any far-reaching decisions on something that a single caseworker has said about a hypothetical application. You don't know who will have your application on their desk and how sympathetic they will be. When you have an official written refusal, you can always try to appeal or at least talk to the head of department, etc.


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## dbandsg

Thanks for your reply, but it is too late as the selling process has begun and just as well anyway as health insurance has proven to be the real clincher. Unfortunately we found out much too late that the cost of health insurance is too high. Had we known about this cost prior to buying the apartment we would not have bought.
I won't compare the lack of response from the German consulates/embassies and their propensity to not have full disclosure on the websites regarding all that is required and easily found answers and willingness to answer phone calls to another country we are now looking at, but suffice it to say the German immigration machine acts as though they don't want foreigners. Nuff said!


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## _shel

dbandsg said:


> Thanks for your reply, but it is too late as the selling process has begun and just as well anyway as health insurance has proven to be the real clincher. Unfortunately we found out much too late that the cost of health insurance is too high. Had we known about this cost prior to buying the apartment we would not have bought.
> I won't compare the lack of response from the German consulates/embassies and their propensity to not have full disclosure on the websites regarding all that is required and easily found answers and willingness to answer phone calls to another country we are now looking at, but suffice it to say the German immigration machine acts as though they don't want foreigners. Nuff said!


 Seems the German immigration Dept has much the same policy as the USA one then who also don't want foreigners bar some spouses of citizens and the highest earners who can find sponsorship.


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## Bevdeforges

It could also be related to your timing. I know in France, they are hesitant to grant visas based on "projected" pension income. It may also have something to do with the fact that your daughter went in to enquire about your situation. As I understand it, they generally prefer (i.e. "require") the applicants to come in directly.

That said, purchasing property doesn't seem to carry any visa advantages anywhere these days - unless the property cost upwards of $1 million or so.

But as you say, it's too late if you've begun the selling process and don't want to (or can't) turn back. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I don't mean to sound overly critical, but buying a property before you'd figured out the cost of health insurance or gained a long-term residence permit, well, perhaps not the best order in which to do things.



> but suffice it to say the German immigration machine acts as though they don't want foreigners


Indeed. Germany is not "wired" for immigration. You can move there with relative ease if you have specific job skills, but there certainly isn't a general appeal for all and sundry to make Germany their home, particularly retirees. 

Some basics: The costs and difficulties of health insurance are quite well known, especially for people of retirement age. Property ownership confers no benefit to you in gaining residence. There is no specific retirement visa, but you can ask for a long-stay visa if you have a credible plan (showing income source, health insurance, reason for wanting to live in Germany). Much depends on the discretion of the individual officer at your local Ausländerbehörde; nothing is guaranteed. None of this is particularly difficult to research.

As an American, you are entitled to spend 90 days in the country as a tourist. During that time you can take care of all your bureaucracy - including making application for an Aufenhaltserlaubnis. It's not necessary to make any application with the consulate before arrival, which is probably why you were a low priority for them. Before one of our previous sabbaticals I contacted a consulate in Canada to ask about a work permit and was politely told that there was no advantage to my doing anything before leaving, and therefore no point in my continuing with an application.

It sounds like its too late anyway, but for future reference here's the recommended order:

1. Figure out the cost of health insurance (might have been the deal-breaker, right there).
2. Rent a guest apartment in Hof for three months.
3. Fly over, and within 90 days register your address (Anmeldung) then set off for the Ausländerbehörde, with full documentation of health insurance, income sources, family connections, etc. and ask for a long-term residence permit. If successful, you likely would be granted a year, then be asked to come in for renewal.
4. Rent a more permanent apartment until you feel secure that your Aufenhaltserlaubnis will be regularly renewed, or extended indefinitely.
5. Buy a property, if you so desire.


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