# Digital Nomads, a growing phenomenon



## BoilingFrog

Given the number of people asking on here about the rules around living in France, while working virtually for a foreign employer, I though this item would be of interest.









The digital nomad visas luring workers overseas


More than 25 countries have now launched visa programmes for digital nomads, enabling these travellers to work legally, longer and more freely.




www.bbc.com





From this, it would seem Italy is the better option presently for those looking to work in this way in Europe


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## EuroTrash

Yes I've been keeping an eye on these developments too.
If you read the small print though, some have a fair few gotchas. Which is fair enough, countries offer visas for a reason and there has to be a benefit to the country as well as to the person. But for instance I read about the proposed Spanish scheme, that may or may not get anywhere, and you couldn't just go to Spain and travel around working as you go, or even pick a place you fancied living in. You had to choose one of the scheme's designated locations and pay for accommodation and workspace, which they weren't exactly giving away. Clearly those locations would do very well out of it and it did rather give the impression that digital nomads are starting to be identified as a new target for the tourism market, a way of attracting foreigners to areas visitors usually bypass that need an economic boost.
I haven't read about the Italian scheme.


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## Bevdeforges

The whole "digital nomad" phenomenon comes with its own series of pluses and minuses. I think often of how many times we have gotten queries here about visas (for France or anywhere else) with posters insisting that they are "entitled" to a visa because they'll be "contributing to the local economy" while they are doing their best to avoid paying income taxes or otherwise having to get too "involved" in life in [fill in relevant country]. 

In plenty of places (like France), the locals aren't keen to have all those digital nomads moving in - due to things like housing shortages, spikes in housing prices, and the general non-involvement of the nomads in trying to maintain or improve living conditions in the area. I'm certainly happy to have the digital nomads stick to the tourism arena - short term stays in flash accommodations and support for the various tourist businesses, particularly restaurants, hotels and other amusements. But leave the serious housing and public services to the taxpayers.


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## BoilingFrog

I think it should be possible to find a reasonable middle ground. I certainly don't see an argument that someone living in an area should not also contribute to local taxes. IE in the UK they would be expected to pay council tax, but if they are paying income tax at source in a foreign country, there should be a mechanism through which that avoids double taxation to the host country. It certainly should benefit the host country in terms of balance of payments to the macro economy. essentially the export is the nomad's labour. There will of course be some danger of accommodation price inflation, but given the real issues lots of rural places have with aging demographics and lack of income there should be lots of places where this is a benefit to the communities into which they move. I think 'nomad' may also come to be a perjorative term. Being able to relocate and wanting to do so does not mean you don't want to put down roots and become a member of the community on a semi to permanent basis.


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## BackinFrance

How many digital nomads choose to go to rural backwaters and exactly how do they contribute to such local economies where basic services such as shops no longer exist? If they go there they just drive off to areas that do have those services. And if they go there they still use local water supplies and drainage and roads.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> How many digital nomads choose to go to rural backwaters and exactly how do they contribute to such local economies where basic services such as shops no longer exist? If they go there they just drive off to areas that do have those services. And if they go there they still use local water supplies and drainage and roads.


And if there is a local disaster such as fllodong or wildfires, they will still be using French emergency services


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## saffron_gin

Think they glossed over one key fact - that a lot of these digital Nomads are freelancers...trying to appeal to only the salaried ones shows that they don't actually fully understand the market. Also funny how Harvard person always spins the story as benefit for local nations and hype up the Nomad value, which while not inconsequential isn't something that countries need to bend over backwards to accommodate either.


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## BoilingFrog

Possibly i could have been clearer:
'I certainly don't see an argument that someone living in an area should not also contribute to local taxes. IE in the UK they would be expected to pay council tax'
Which meant to say, that they SHOULD contribute to local taxes for local services.
Living somewhere without contributing anything to the local economy would seem pretty challenging to accomplish, at the very least the food retailers would benefit.


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## Bevdeforges

BoilingFrog said:


> Living somewhere without contributing anything to the local economy would seem pretty challenging to accomplish, at the very least the food retailers would benefit.


Not all countries work on that sort of basis when it comes to taxes. And, like many things here in France, the system is, well, complicated (and generally highly centralized). There are also already some problems developing here in France with the "digital nomads" who move out of the cities and out to the rural areas in the same country. The "escape to the countryside" runs up housing (and other) prices in the rural areas and further dissuades the next generations from attempting to remain in the rural areas.

It's a complex problem and comes down to factors other than "dollars and cents" (or "euros and centimes" if you prefer). It's fine if the countries that are highly dependent on tourism want to appeal to the digital nomads - but for many places these days it just doesn't make all that much sense.


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## Eliora

@BoilingFrog 
Its the same in France, we pay local taxes. Health insurance pays or once you are on the system your taxes are paying for medical issues, otherwise you'd pay at source for medical things, which you can do, they don't mind at all. I don't see how being a 'nomad' makes the slightest difference.


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## BackinFrance

BoilingFrog said:


> Given the number of people asking on here about the rules around living in France, while working virtually for a foreign employer, I though this item would be of interest.
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> The digital nomad visas luring workers overseas
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> More than 25 countries have now launched visa programmes for digital nomads, enabling these travellers to work legally, longer and more freely.
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> www.bbc.com
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> From this, it would seem Italy is the better option presently for those looking to work in this way in Europe


The Italian option, supported by 5 Étoiles which is very far from having an electoral majority in the governing Italian coalition, won't come to be. Mario Draghi has already moved to exclude 5 Étoiles, which is a very good thing given 5 Étoiles are total crooks of the Mafia type.


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## BackinFrance

That guy Tremblay is NOT a digital nomad. He is someone with IT skills who has found a location (Dubai) where he can work legally and avoid paying taxes altogether.


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## BoilingFrog

Can you share your definition of a digital nomad? I assumed it was anyone working virtually from one location whilst being paid from another


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## Harry Moles

BoilingFrog said:


> Can you share your definition of a digital nomad? I assumed it was anyone working virtually from one location whilst being paid from another


The classic archetype is someone who moves from one location to another relatively frequently, staying on tourist visas while assuming that nobody cares about (or is able to detect) their working remotely. Americans can use the FEIE to reduce or eliminate their tax bill; Canadians and others might be able to do the same by declaring non-residency.

In Europe you pretty much need to follow Schengen rules unless you have status through a spouse or some other means of staying beyond 90 days. Southeast Asia and Central America have been popular for longer stays because it's apparently not difficult to do border runs to renew the tourist visa and authorities didn't seem too concerned about anyone working for foreign employers.

The visas described are an attempt to make the nomads less nomadic, so they can settle somewhere for a year or two at a stretch without necessarily having any tax obligations.


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> Can you share your definition of a digital nomad? I assumed it was anyone working virtually from one location whilst being paid from another


That sounds to me like a definition of a remote worker rather than a digital nomad.


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## Bevdeforges

If you do a bit of hunting around online, you may find (as I did) that there are several alternative definitions of a "digital nomad" and that the term may or may not overlap with a "remote worker" or any of a number of other terms. Differences seem to involve how long the person is planning on remaining in the country, the level of obligation involved regarding the payment of taxes and/or the need to register a company or business entity for their activity, and the conditions involving "temporary" absence from the country of residence. 

This article highlights some of the various terms and conditions for this type of visa:








Best Countries With Digital Nomad & Remote Work Visas


Want to live & work from a Caribbean island or a historic European city? Learn which countries offer visas for digital nomads and remote workers...



expertvagabond.com




But there are tons of other sites with similar lists - and all (seemingly) with their own definition of what constitutes a "digital nomad."


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## BackinFrance

BoilingFrog said:


> Can you share your definition of a digital nomad? I assumed it was anyone working virtually from one location whilst being paid from another


No, a nomad of any kind does not remain long-term in one place, in fact usually not more than say 6 months. And it's in the article you shared. Otherwise the person is purely and simply an expat with IT skills. Or look at it the other way round, would you say that any expat, as in someone working outside their home country and with IT skills is a digital nomad. The answer would surely have to be no, and there are certainly expats with IT skills who would take serious offense at being so described.


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## BackinFrance

I think you can fairly safely say that a digital nomad is not legally a long term resident in the country where he or she is working remotely, as In that guy Tremblay's case


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## BoilingFrog

but you seem to be missing the point that there is a cross border element to where the person is located versus where the work is occurring. I think you mean a nomad, who happens to work in IT. At least the 'digital' part of it to me suggests it is the virtualisation of the work that is the differentiator.


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## BackinFrance

BoilingFrog said:


> but you seem to be missing the point that there is a cross border element to where the person is located versus where the work is occurring. I think you mean a nomad, who happens to work in IT. At least the 'digital' part of it to me suggests it is the virtualisation of the work that is the differentiator.


But most, almost all in fact, work can be done virtually/remotely. So are you trying to say that anyone who works remotely and across borders is a digital nomad? Frankly that doesn't work at all, if you give just a tiny bit of thoughts to who would be captured in that definition.


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## BackinFrance

Including for example diplomats and heads of state.


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## BoilingFrog

I think there is an element of pragmatism here from the countries making these proposals. At present detecting and taxing people who are able to derive their income through the internet from any location must be next to impossible. Travelling to a country, not contributing to the tax revenue there, but relying on local service provision may seem like freeloading, but these people are also prevented from integrating even if they wanted to due to the complexity of appropriate visas. Even those preferring to settle are prevented from doing so.
It seems to be that it is better to provide a route to being a legitimate resident in a country and contributing to the tax revenue than operating below the radar.


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## BackinFrance

BoilingFrog said:


> I think there is an element of pragmatism here from the countries making these proposals. At present detecting and taxing people who are able to derive their income through the internet from any location must be next to impossible. Travelling to a country, not contributing to the tax revenue there, but relying on local service provision may seem like freeloading, but these people are also prevented from integrating even if they wanted to due to the complexity of appropriate visas. Even those preferring to settle are prevented from doing so.
> It seems to be that it is better to provide a route to being a legitimate resident in a country and contributing to the tax revenue than operating below the radar.


No doubt you have your own reasons for taking that view. My view is that France would do far better not to take that approach given the significant negative impacts on its own residents and given that there is an very broad existing range of visas that would meet the needs of many wishing to move here. Most digital nomads can visit France for the usual 90 in 180 days. Digital nomads would likely move elsewhere before they even had to declare foreign source income anyway.


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> but you seem to be missing the point that there is a cross border element to where the person is located versus where the work is occurring. I think you mean a nomad, who happens to work in IT. At least the 'digital' part of it to me suggests it is the virtualisation of the work that is the differentiator.


I think you are making too much of the "cross border" element here.
Digital nomads can by definition work for clients all over the world, as can many other people as BiF points out.
If you are say a translator and you have a home office in Spain you may have regular clients in France, Germany, Italy, the UK, the US, Poland, India, Saudi, etc, or you may pick up one off clients in these or other places. 
if you decide to go nomadic, then you will have the same mix of clients and wherever you rock up, you are going to be working for clients in different countries. Just as you did when you were working in your home country. And sometimes you will maybe wind up working in a country where you have a client or two.
But I don't see why the fact of working for clients in other countries is significant here, or specific to digital nomads?

I think maybe this bit of your post risks skewing how you are seeing the issue


BoilingFrog said:


> there is a cross border element to where the person is located versus where the work is occurring


because the work necessarily occurs where the person is located. If you and your computer are in Italy and you are working, then you are deemed to be working in Italy. In terms of registration, taxation etc, the basic rule is the "rule of bum". It makes no odds where your client is or where the bank account is that you get paid into.


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> Even those preferring to settle are prevented from doing so.


You mean they want to stop being a digital nomad?
In which case they have the same range of visa options as everybody else. I don't see why the fact of previously having been a digital nomad, prevents them.


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## C'est Moi

BackinFrance said:


> No doubt you have your own reasons for taking that view. My view is that France would do far better not to take that approach given the significant negative impacts on its own residents and given that there is an very broad existing range of visas that would meet the needs of many wishing to move here.


What are the negative impacts on French residents? Do you have any sources you can share?


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## Bevdeforges

I think it might help if you took a look at the requirements for those digital nomad visas in the countries that offer them. It's fairly clear that each country seems to have its own take on the phenomenon. Some countries require the "nomad" to be employed by an entity outside the the country, others require them to be "freelancers" (and to register as such in the country as part of the visa process), while still others require a certain minimum annual income level. One country I looked at even requires that the "nomad" must have a rented or purchased "place of business" - often in one of the remote working centers apparently set up by the government for digital nomads. The taxation rules also seem to vary from place to place - everything from requiring that you are paying taxes to your "home" country to full income taxation on your business being run from your country of residence.


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## Bevdeforges

C'est Moi said:


> What are the negative impacts on French residents? Do you have any sources you can share?


One long-time "issue" that these remote workers pose for the locals is the effect on property prices. High-earning refugees from the Big City can outbid the locals on house prices, afford to elaborately renovate and redecorate and then put pressure on local services (schools, health care, public services) that the long-time residents aren't able or willing to support. Used to be the reason why so many folks in rural areas so resented the influx of British retirees, who drove up local housing prices because they thought housing in France was "so cheap."

There are also cases like that of "Maurice the rooster" and other instances of the city folks moving out to rural areas and then complaining about perfectly normal country noises and odors and such: French rooster Maurice wins battle over noise with neighbours Obviously not earth shattering stuff - but "terroire" and "tradition" are strong values here in France, particularly in the more rural areas.


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## BackinFrance

Countries have immigration policies for a reason. Bear in mind that there is already freedom of movement between EU states. Then there are refugee obligations, though tbh France does not have a particularly good record in that regard. Immigration policies also generally take into account their labour requirements, both for skilled and unskilled work. 

Then there is the really big issue in France of housing availability and spiraling costs in key areas, which also pushes lower paid essential workers further away from their jobs. 

Not to mention the now urgent need to adapt to climate change.


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## EuroTrash

EDIT - oops the post I was replying to seems to have gone. So I best delete this too LOL


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## BoilingFrog

It is now in its own thread. Odd as it gave really relevant context to someone living in France and facing exactly the kind of issues that the Digital Nomad article I originally linked to in this thread higlighted. 









Foreign "temporary" workers - in a time of...


Hi everyone. New to the forum. I'm researching to become an independent/freelance/remote worker. I am at the beginning stages of my research and so far, I am looking at Ireland (because I love the people and the land). If anyone has any experience as a freelancer/independent remote worker in...




www.expatforum.com


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## EuroTrash

BoilingFrog said:


> It is now in its own thread.


So it is.
I wrote a very long rambling post, mainly to put off the evil hour when I had to go back to work in 36° heat. I can't remember now what I put, and most of it probably isn't worth repeating but one thing I raised was that France has always been very anti "precarity". It has never like freelancers and micro businesses that get by on low profits and a wing and a prayer. When Sarkozy introduced the auto entrepreneur scheme to open the door to freelancers and micro businesses there was a lot of opposition, and Hollande was a whisker away from implementing the proposed Pinel reforms which would have terminated it as a regime in itself. At that time I wrote to my député asking her to support the auto entrepreneurs and she wrote back explaining that she was opposed to the scheme because it fostered precarity. To my anglo saxon way of thinking this seemed very odd. I challenged her and put it to her that if I couldn't carry on as an auto entrepreneur I would not be able to work, and how would that benefit France, and she explained her thinking which was that France's gold standard is solidly-established businesses that contribute to society by providing employment and paying taxes, and that are not in danger of vanishing overnight and leaving customers in the lurch. It saw no benefit in encouraging micro operations like mine, run on a shoe-string that are never going to provide employment, are liable to engage in unfair competition by undercutting the established providers and are at high risk of failing. 

Here's a blast from the past, to put things a bit more in perspective for anyone who wasn't in France in 2013 and has never heard of the Poussins: 
Auto-entrepreneurs : les "Poussins" pioupioutent de plus en plus fort
Anybody who is whingeing now that France doesn't have much of a gig economy, should maybe consider that it's less than 10 years ago since France almost pulled the plug on the auto entrepreneur scheme because it was a step too far. That was a tense time for me, I don't know what I'd have done if the Poussins hadn't won the day.

Since then France has slowly become more open to micro businesses and freelancers, and recognises better now what they can contribute. But I think there's still some road to travel before it gets to the point of embracing digital nomads and encouraging them to rock up, do their thing for a while and then move on. And actually, I did end up shifting towards Ms Louwagie's view in that I am a bit horrified now by the level of precarity that the UK seems to find acceptable and even encourages, with the gig economy and zero hour contracts and all, It may seem all very ambitious and creative and the sky's the limit, but in reality it's based on allowing workers to be exploited, albeit willingly in some cases, and it's not good for a country's economy or society in the longer term. 
I'm not saying that digital nomads are a bad thing, I'm just saying they're a long way from France's traditional gold standard of what model of business activity is best for society and the economy, and although it's easy to say that that model is outdated and blinkered, there are things to be said for it.


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## BackinFrance

I really struggle to see how digital nomads could bring any national benefit to France, indeed I think it would do the opposite 'Anyway, given that the French government is in its own significant state of precarity, there will be no change for them here in the foreseeable future. 

As for the gig economy in France, that may well come to an end given widespread political reaction to #Uberfiles.


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## BoilingFrog

Good balanced view for the context, and I agree with the sentiment. But the practical reality is that this 'precarity' is being forced on people as explained in the other thread. 

On which note, this reply probably needs to be in both places!

Put another way, if the only businesses that can survive and thrive in France are the large corporates (or the black market entrepreneurs) France is going to lose out both ways


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## BackinFrance

The other thread is primarily about living and working in France as a travaiileur temporaire, in terms of immigration status rather than digital nomads. That is a status that bypasses the more rigorous aspects of moving to France to work. Not only that, the poster is incorrect with regard to the situation of all foreign workers in France and we do have members here working as employees in France who have access to all the social security etc benefits available to French workers.


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## Bevdeforges

I was tempted to offer to move your other post over here - but when I saw you were on your way out the door, figured I'd hold off. It was a good post, sorry to see you deleted it.

But I see you've changed your views on this, too. I think it takes living here in France (or in "socialist Europe") for a time to understand the objections to the gig economy. There were huge demonstrations by licensed taxi drivers when Uber started up here in France. And over the years, Uber has been slapped with a number of legal rulings (in several different countries) requiring them to treat their drivers more like employees and (if I understand correctly) to require training and licensing for their drivers here in France. In many ways, that sort of thing demonstrates the French attitude toward the strictly "economic" approach to work life. In some instances, the precarity thing breaks down to some level of consideration for the employee in terms of providing the statutory level of health care, retirement cover and some of the other "standard" public services.

To be honest, I have little or no interest in making use of Uber. Uber drivers outside of the big cities are at least as scarce as genuine taxis, and every bit as expensive - plus there is the ever-present risk of unsupervised or unreliable drivers with no serious stake in the business. The whole idea of the the auto-entrepreneur scheme was supposed to be to give people a chance to set up a small business simply and easily for the first few years in order to see if it might fly and develop into something durable (and, ideally, to be able to employ others). Or at least to provide for really small operations to make their social insurance contributions with the least amount of hassle. Profits aren't necessary king here in France.


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## BackinFrance

The Uber thing has also exploded in at least one other non EU non-socialist country.


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## BackinFrance

The micro entrepreneur regime is also used by low paid workers in France to top up their salaried income, and the government has gone so far as to recommend it for that purpose.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> The micro entrepreneur regime is also used by low paid workers in France to top up their salaried income, and the government has gone so far as to recommend it for that purpose.


It is also used by high paid workers to set up "a little something on the side" to ease themselves into retirement, or to pursue a sideline legally.


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## EuroTrash

Haha, I just discovered I still had the draft of my yesterday's post up on my screen, I never got round to deleting it from Word.
I'll post it over on the other thread even though it's got a bit superseded.


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