# Bailout ready



## Guest

According to Swedish news is the bailout agreement ready.

The sum is 10 billion Euro.

Cyprus agree to a one time tax on all money people have on bank accounts and higher company tax

The one time tax will be 9,9 percent for amounts over 100000 euro and 6,75 if you have under that amount in the bank. This will give Cyprus state 5,8 billion. It will also be tax on the interest you get from the bank

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> Cyprus agree to a one time tax on all money people have on bank accounts and higher company tax
> 
> The one time tax will be 9,9 percent for amounts over 100000 euro and 6,75 if you have under that amount in the bank. This will give Cyprus state 5,8 billion. It will also be tax on the interest you get from the bank
> 
> Anders


 Thank goodness I haven't yet opened a bank account in Cyprus. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask. This is just daylight robbery. A tax on just having money in the bank? Outrageous!


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## Veronica

Great I was tempted to take our money out of the savings account when the banks were said to be in trouble but I was persuaded that it was safe. Now the flippin government is going to rob us:boxing:


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Thank goodness I haven't yet opened a bank account in Cyprus. At least Dick Turpin wore a mask. This is just daylight robbery. A tax on just having money in the bank? Outrageous!


It must be better then loosing all money when the bank go bankrupt. Perhaps it would be better ti raise tax on expat pensions to 25% like it is in many other countries...., or?

Anders


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## Guest

Veronica said:


> Great I was tempted to take our money out of the savings account when the banks were said to be in trouble but I was persuaded that it was safe. Now the flippin government is going to rob us:boxing:


It's to late now, Cyprus has promised to block electronic bank transfers until banks open on Monday and the law is in force.

Anders


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## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> It must be better then loosing all money when the bank go bankrupt. Perhaps it would be better ti raise tax on expat pensions to 25% like it is in many other countries...., or?
> 
> Anders


For heavens sake Anders, don't give them any more stupid ideas
I would much rather the one off robbing of my savings account than that the government takes chunks out of peoples pensions which in many cases they can only just manage to survive on as it is. There are many pensioners who have only their basic state pensions and to take any of that off them would put them in the poverty trap.


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## Guest

Veronica said:


> For heavens sake Anders, don't give them any more stupid ideas
> I would much rather the one off robbing of my savings account than that the government takes chunks out of peoples pensions which in many cases they can only just manage to survive on as it is. There are many pensioners who have only their basic state pensions and to take any of that off them would put them in the poverty trap.


Thats what I mean. It must be better to loose 6,75 % one time then pay high tax forever. And you UK seniors are very favored. I will have to pay 25% on my pension. 20% in Sweden and 5% in Cyprus.

Btw the new corporate tax is now 12,5%

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> It must be better then loosing all money when the bank go bankrupt. Perhaps it would be better ti raise tax on expat pensions to 25% like it is in many other countries...., or?
> 
> Anders


Income tax I can understand. 

Value Added Tax or a levy on what you spend I can understand (so long as it targets luxury goods rather than food staples). 

Tax on profits I understand. 

But taking 10% of what money people have in the bank is not a tax, and is certainly not fair. If the bank took 10% of our savings, we would call it theft. If the Government do the same, they call it tax. Call it what you like - it is simply wrong.


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## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> I would much rather the one off robbing of my savings account than that the government takes chunks out of peoples pensions which in many cases they can only just manage to survive on as it is. There are many pensioners who have only their basic state pensions and to take any of that off them would put them in the poverty trap.


But will it stop at a one time raid? The 10 Billion has to be repaid. How does the Cyprus Govt intend to service this debt?


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Income tax I can understand.
> 
> Value Added Tax or a levy on what you spend I can understand (so long as it targets luxury goods rather than food staples).
> 
> Tax on profits I understand.
> 
> But taking 10% of what money people have in the bank is not a tax, and is certainly not fair. If the bank took 10% of our savings, we would call it theft. If the Government do the same, they call it tax. Call it what you like - it is simply wrong.


What surprise me is why they dont income tax from much lower start point. A tax free income up to 19500 euro for a single person or the double for a family is extreme and does not exist in any other country in Europe

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> What surprise me is why they dont income tax from much lower start point. A tax free income up to 19500 euro for a single person or the double for a family is extreme and does not exist in any other country in Europe
> 
> Anders


I agree Anders.

Regarding the savings tax, the Cyprus Mail says:

"In a radical departure from previous aid packages, eurozone ministers forced Cyprus' savers, *almost half of whom are believed to be non-resident Russians* to pay up to 10 per cent of their deposits to raise almost €6 billion".


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## David_&_Letitia

David_&_Letitia said:


> But will it stop at a one time raid? The 10 Billion has to be repaid. How does the Cyprus Govt intend to service this debt?


BBC News says:

In return, Cyprus is being asked to trim its deficit, shrink its banking sector and *increase taxes*.


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> I agree Anders.
> 
> Regarding the savings tax, the Cyprus Mail says:
> 
> "In a radical departure from previous aid packages, eurozone ministers forced Cyprus' savers, *almost half of whom are believed to be non-resident Russians* to pay up to 10 per cent of their deposits to raise almost €6 billion".


This comes of course because of the crazy amount of money that is placed in Cyprus banks from abroad. It can be unfair perhaps but again, the alternative is probably much worse. Many say that Cyprus should leave the Euro but that would for sure be a disaster.

The raised taxes is mostly on Alcohol, Tobacco, the VAT and corporate tax



Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> This comes of course because of the crazy amount of money that is placed in Cyprus banks from abroad. It can be unfair perhaps but again, the alternative is probably much worse. Many say that Cyprus should leave the Euro but that would for sure be a disaster.
> 
> Anders


I do not believe that it will end with this - especially if they get away with it. What would stop them doing it again - and again - and again?

I just wonder if it is legal. 

We look back at history when the Jews had their property 'confiscated' by the State, and we are horrified. This is not a Tax in the sense that we understand a tax. It is effectively 'confiscating' 10% of savers assets.


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## David_&_Letitia

...and what about anyone who has arranged to purchase a property in Cyprus and transferred money for this sole purpose? The house they thought they bought for 300,000 has now gone up to 330,000!

What protection has anyone got?


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> ...and what about anyone who has arranged to purchase a property in Cyprus and transferred money for this sole purpose? The house they thought they bought for 300,000 has now gone up to 330,000!
> 
> What protection has anyone got?


But honestly, what is better, to loose 6,75 - 9,9 % now or loose all when the banks collaps?

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> But honestly, what is better, to loose 6,75 - 9,9 % now or loose all when the banks collaps?
> 
> Anders


If the banks collapse, savers with €100,000 are guaranteed to get it back under the Deposit Protection Scheme (€200,000 is safe in a joint account).

This sort of raid will do more harm to the banking industry than good. It will unsettle savers/depositors/Investors.

It seems that our money is safer under the mattress in Cyprus nowadays...


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## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> But honestly, what is better, to loose 6,75 - 9,9 % now or loose all when the banks collaps?
> 
> Anders


That's a politicians argument, Anders.

It's a bit like choosing between diarrhoea and constipation. Both are a pain in the arse.

Far better to take some medicine to eliminate the problem which is what the discussions should hope to achieve.

Pete


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## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> Thats what I mean. It must be better to loose 6,75 % one time then pay high tax forever. And you UK seniors are very favored. I will have to pay 25% on my pension. 20% in Sweden and 5% in Cyprus.
> 
> Btw the new corporate tax is now 12,5%
> 
> Anders


We Uk pensioners receive lower retirement pensions than in most other European countries. The fact that Sweden chooses to tax your pension at 20% probably dosn't make you any worse off than Uk pensioners in the long run. 
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if even after your 20% tax reduction your pension may well still be higher than Uk pensions. So how favoured are we really? It is nothing to do with Cyprus that your country taxes you at such a high rate on your pension.


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## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> That's a politicians argument, Anders.
> 
> It's a bit like choosing between diarrhoea and constipation. Both are a pain in the arse.
> 
> Far better to take some medicine to eliminate the problem which is what the discussions should hope to achieve.
> 
> Pete


I am aware of that Pete. But the medicine you want to prescribe is perhaps this "haircut"

For me it is much better to do this one time in stead of other measures that will hurt much more. Like much raised prices in health care, Income tax from European level around 8000€, much higher property tax etc.

This is ofc not fair but perhaps necessary. Also this new government has refused to sell out state property like Cyta, Electricity, etc. 

Russians will also contribute with longer payback time and lower interest rate on the 2,5 billion 5-year loan that Cyprus got before


Anders


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## Guest

Veronica said:


> We Uk pensioners receive lower retirement pensions than in most other European countries. The fact that Sweden chooses to tax your pension at 20% probably dosn't make you any worse off than Uk pensioners in the long run.
> In fact I wouldn't be surprised if even after your 20% tax reduction your pension may well still be higher than Uk pensions. So how favoured are we really? It is nothing to do with Cyprus that your country taxes you at such a high rate on your pension.


My state pension will be 1200 euro -25% so I think it will not be much higher then UK but that I dont know ofc

Anders


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## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I am aware of that Pete. But the medicine you want to prescribe is perhaps this "haircut"
> 
> For me it is much better to do this one time in stead of other measures that will hurt much more. Like much raised prices in health care, Income tax from European level around 8000€, much higher property tax etc.
> 
> This is ofc not fair but perhaps necessary. Also this new government has refused to sell out state property like Cyta, Electricity, etc.
> 
> Russians will also contribute with longer payback time and lower interest rate on the 2,5 billion 5-year loan that Cyprus got before
> 
> 
> Anders


Absolutely not. The "haircut" is not a tax but is theft from citizens to pay for the irresponsibility of others. Cyprus is traditionally a low tax environment and that is incompatible with the EU so a fair raising of tax and increased value for money for taxpayers should be the path to take.

I am not convinced that privatising CYTA, electricity, etc is a good thing in Cyprus as in relative terms the companies are very small and it is hard to see why outside investors would be attracted. Far better to reorganise and regulate them as independent entities under state ownership subject of course to effective regulation.

Some people baulk at the concept of borrowing from Russia. A quick look at who owes what to whom in the EU (there is an excellent facility to do this on the BBC website) will show that the source of borrowing is irrelevant. It is the terms of lending that is important.

Additionally I would add that there needs to be a detailed strategy laid out for obtaining and processing the offshore gas together with a rigid strategy for applying the revenues from it. This will have to be a partnership strategy and I would hope executive control would be shared between Cyprus and the EU with clear lines of accountability and full financial auditing. I see this as the most advantageous opportunity of any EU country and suggest the shared executive control for 2 reasons: 1. To ensure that Cyprus is free of the consequences and accusations of corruption. 2. To ensure the EU is restrained from seeking excessive repayments to the detriment of Cyprus.

Pete


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## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> My state pension will be 1200 euro -25% so I think it will not be much higher then UK but that I dont know ofc
> 
> Anders


If that is per month I can assure you that you will be much better off than a British pensioner who has only the basic pension. Why do you think that most UK pensioners choose to go for the personal allowance rather than pay 5% on all income here?


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## MacManiac

Just got back from the Hellenic Bank in Polis, and joined a very small queue of people - all of whom are members of this forum. No problem taking money out of the account, which is now empty. My Cypriot landlords, the lovely Demetrious and Frederiki, did not believe their government would contemplate such a thing, and promised to make up any money that was removed from our account. However, when I returned from Polis, they confirmed that they had heard it on the Greek-language news stations here in Cyprus.

I suspect, whatever happens, that this may turn out to be retrospective legislation - always a bad thing - and it will end any confidence remaining in the Cypriot banking system. The BBC report it is a "one time tax", but do not state when it is coming into force, but the thought will always be present in peoples' minds that a "one time tax" can be repeated. Wasn't income tax in the UK a temporary measure to help fund the Napoleonic Wars?

Whether we are taxed on what I withdrew this morning or not, it does leave a very bad taste in the mouth. Demetrious, on my return, explained that Cyprus was in "deep s**t", and was already planning to transfer funds out of the country when he could, and back to South Africa. God knows what those with large (100000+) in their accounts will do, having found that the state has removed 9.9% from their accounts.

Hey ho! And I am the designated driver for the party tonight so no drowning my sorrows, but that's probably a relief to those who attended my 60th Birthday Party a couple of weeks ago.


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## David_&_Letitia

MacManiac said:


> Just got back from the Hellenic Bank in Polis, and joined a very small queue of people - all of whom are members of this forum. No problem taking money out of the account, which is now empty.


I suspect that queue is going to dramtically increase!

Another quote from the BBC Website:
_
"A European Central Bank (ECB) official said the Cypriot authorities had already started to take action to ensure that the levy can be collected. Otherwise, there would be a likelihood of massive withdrawals to avoid it, our correspondent adds"._


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## Guest

MacManiac said:


> Just got back from the Hellenic Bank in Polis, and joined a very small queue of people - all of whom are members of this forum. No problem taking money out of the account, which is now empty. My Cypriot landlords, the lovely Demetrious and Frederiki, did not believe their government would contemplate such a thing, and promised to make up any money that was removed from our account. However, when I returned from Polis, they confirmed that they had heard it on the Greek-language news stations here in Cyprus.
> 
> I suspect, whatever happens, that this may turn out to be retrospective legislation - always a bad thing - and it will end any confidence remaining in the Cypriot banking system. The BBC report it is a "one time tax", but do not state when it is coming into force, but the thought will always be present in peoples' minds that a "one time tax" can be repeated. Wasn't income tax in the UK a temporary measure to help fund the Napoleonic Wars?
> 
> Whether we are taxed on what I withdrew this morning or not, it does leave a very bad taste in the mouth. Demetrious, on my return, explained that Cyprus was in "deep s**t", and was already planning to transfer funds out of the country when he could, and back to South Africa. God knows what those with large (100000+) in their accounts will do, having found that the state has removed 9.9% from their accounts.
> 
> Hey ho! And I am the designated driver for the party tonight so no drowning my sorrows, but that's probably a relief to those who attended my 60th Birthday Party a couple of weeks ago.


According to Swedish news the law is in force from banks open on Monday and all electronic transfer's should be blocked over weekend

Anders


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## Guest

Veronica said:


> If that is per month I can assure you that you will be much better off than a British pensioner who has only the basic pension. Why do you think that most UK pensioners choose to go for the personal allowance rather than pay 5% on all income here?


If I only had my 900 euro per month in state pension to live on I would not even consider going to Cyprus.

Anders


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> I suspect that queue is going to dramtically increase!
> 
> Another quote from the BBC Website:
> _
> "A European Central Bank (ECB) official said the Cypriot authorities had already started to take action to ensure that the levy can be collected. Otherwise, there would be a likelihood of massive withdrawals to avoid it, our correspondent adds"._


If everyone want to take out the money from their bank, the bank will go bankrupt anyway. No bank can survive, they dont have close to these amounts

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> According to Swedish news the law is in force from banks open on Monday and all electronic transfer's should be blocked over weekend
> 
> Anders


According to BBC News, banks do not open until Tuesday:

_"A European Central Bank official said he anticipated the levy could be imposed before the banks open on Tuesday - Monday is a bank holiday in Cyprus. There would otherwise be a likelihood of massive withdrawals to avoid it."_


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> If everyone want to take out the money from their bank, the bank will go bankrupt anyway. No bank can survive, they dont have close to these amounts
> 
> Anders


Absolutely!

However, the Deposit Guarantee scheme is underwritten by Govts.

If the banks collapsed, therefore, at least 100,000 (200,00 for joint accounts) would be safe. However, the Russian Oligarchs who are alleged to be money laundering through Cyprus would have more than a haircut! More like total depilation!


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## Kalimera

A good way of raising money is giving the people their title deeds!!!


Is this foul play happening at only Bank of Cyprus?


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> However, the Deposit Guarantee scheme is underwritten by Govts.
> 
> If the banks collapsed, therefore, at least 100,000 (200,00 for joint accounts) would be safe. However, the Russian Oligarchs who are alleged to be money laundering through Cyprus would have more than a haircut! More like total depilation!


For that the Government must have money. And reading Cyprus Mail that writes that companies now want rental cars back because state cant pay the fee then I start to wonder

Anders


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## roberda

Is it just on savings accounts??? we only have acurrent account


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## Guest

roberda said:


> Is it just on savings accounts??? we only have acurrent account


All accounts is hit.

Anders


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## David_&_Letitia

roberda said:


> Is it just on savings accounts??? we only have acurrent account


The detail has not been released yet, although the reports indicate that the levy is on bank *deposits*. Whether this is limited to deposit or savings accounts has yet to be confirmed.

Either way, the message appears to be "Stand and deliver!"


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## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> All accounts is hit.
> 
> Anders


I can't see how this could possibly apply to current accounts, Anders. If it did, then there would be cheques bouncing, standing orders and direct debits not paid.

Then again, nothing appears to be beyond comprehension anymore...

The bankers will still get their bonuses and the Govt will still look to Joe Public to take the austerity measures.

Hard Times...


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## Veronica

According to our accountant who has spent all morning trying to get the full story, this has been agreed by Europe but not yet by the Cyprus parliament.


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## roberda

There is not a lot we can do but pay up and lets hope this is just a one off payment :boxing:


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## Guest

roberda said:


> There is not a lot we can do but pay up and lets hope this is just a one off payment :boxing:


You are ofc 100% right. Say no and the country will default in 6 weeks and the banks will go bankrupt. Then all money can be lost, also the 100 000 that comes with DGS. 

Anders


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## PeteandSylv

You won't have to pay up, they'll help themselves!!

It is a one-off payment. Any future robbery will be given a different name.

In banking, deposits refer to money paid into the bank regardless of the type of account it is held in. I believe it will apply to current accounts and the issue of whether there is enough money to pay DDs and SOs will be the account holders problem.

Pete


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## David_&_Letitia

The run on banks will not therefore be just in Cyprus. Once news gets out, any country in danger of default will experience a run on their bank 'just in case' they follow suit.

Italy, Portugal, Spain will find that their savers will just bail out.

As I said, it seems that our money is safer under the mattress than in the bank.


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> The run on banks will not therefore be just in Cyprus. Once news gets out, any country in danger of default will experience a run on their bank 'just in case' they follow suit.
> 
> Italy, Portugal, Spain will find that their savers will just bail out.
> 
> As I said, it seems that our money is safer under the mattress than in the bank.


Perhaps also other countries with big debts will do a "haircut" Who knows

Anders


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## Veronica

David_&_Letitia said:


> The run on banks will not therefore be just in Cyprus. Once news gets out, any country in danger of default will experience a run on their bank 'just in case' they follow suit.
> 
> Italy, Portugal, Spain will find that their savers will just bail out.
> 
> As I said, it seems that our money is safer under the mattress than in the bank.


As you said in your first post on this thread you havn't opened an account here yet, but you seem to be getting far more hot under the collar about things than those of us who actually stand to lose some money. 
The simple solution for you is just not to bother opening an account here.


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## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> As you said in your first post on this thread you havn't opened an account here yet, but you seem to be getting far more hot under the collar about things than those of us who actually stand to lose some money.
> The simple solution for you is just not to bother opening an account here.


Veronica,

My first post was Jul 2012, so you are making an assumption that I haven't opened an account yet...

I intend to retire to Cyprus next year and actually it is true that I have still not yet opened an account there, but does that mean that I should not post my opinion on this thread? I clearly need to open an account there at some stage, and if this goes ahead, then it creates a precedent which may affect me in the future. As I siad in a previous post, what's to stop it happening again - and again?

This is the first time that I am aware of, that an EU country has made this type of raid on bank deposits under the guise of 'tax'. Clearly it does have an effect on my willingness to transfer any money to Cyprus other than the minimum needed to service bills. It also opens up the question in my last post - which country is next?


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## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Veronica,
> 
> My first post was Jul 2012, so you are making an assumption that I haven't opened an account yet...
> 
> I intend to retire to Cyprus next year and actually it is true that I have still not yet opened an account there, but does that mean that I should not post my opinion on this thread? I clearly need to open an account there at some stage, and if this goes ahead, then it creates a precedent which may affect me in the future. As I siad in a previous post, what's to stop it happening again - and again?
> 
> This is the first time that I am aware of, that an EU country has made this type of raid on bank deposits under the guise of 'tax'. Clearly it does have an effect on my willingness to transfer any money to Cyprus other than the minimum needed to service bills. It also opens up the question in my last post - which country is next?


I opened this thread today and you stated in your answer that you have not opened an account. Not July 2012

Anders


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## Veronica

I made no assumptions. Read my post again. I saidyour first post "in this thread"


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## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> I made no assumptions. Read my post again. I saidyour first post "in this thread"


My apologies. 

Suitably reprimanded, and will butt out.


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## Veronica

The thing is that people only look at things from one angle.

If I had been paying tax in the UK on my pension and on my earnings here I would have paid considerably more than I have. You can earn up to €19.500 before tax here. 
Also we tried to open a savings account in the Uk and because we live abroad we were offered a measly 0.06 of a percent interest. Not allowed to have a high interest account as we live abroad. Here we are getting 4 percent on our savings.
This is why so many people who don't even live here have opened bank accounts in Cypriot banks and it is hgardly surprising that the banks and the country are now struggling.
As I said in an earlier post, our accountant tells us that no concrete decision has been made yet but if we have to pay then we can't complain if it means that the country we have chosen to make our home is saved from total collapse.
There is little point in moaning about something that we cannot change.


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## tunstall44

David_&_Letitia said:


> If the banks collapse, savers with &#128;100,000 are guaranteed to get it back under the Deposit Protection Scheme (&#128;200,000 is safe in a joint account).
> 
> This sort of raid will do more harm to the banking industry than good. It will unsettle savers/depositors/Investors.
> 
> It seems that our money is safer under the mattress in Cyprus nowadays...


The investors will be running to move their money, there is no guarantee that this levy won't happen again, it's not a tax, which is taken from the profits, income over expenditure it's taking the money before the investor in the Cyprus economy has been given a chance to make it work, when companies these days are working on such narrow margins taking their income isn't the way. By all means raise taxes, but don't dip your hands in my pockets and steal it


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## malcb123

Hi all, been reading your thread with great interest, as I fly into Cyprus Sunday 24th to live, I believe Monday 25th is a bank holiday, so Tuesday I will be looking to open a bank account, if you have any banks still left open after the rush to withdraw money. I have been briefed not to bank to much, only what I need to pay out each month. keep up the good work


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## Veronica

David_&_Letitia said:


> ...and what about anyone who has arranged to purchase a property in Cyprus and transferred money for this sole purpose? The house they thought they bought for 300,000 has now gone up to 330,000!
> 
> What protection has anyone got?


A thought occurred to me about this during a telephone conversation a few minutes ago.

In the vast majority of scenarios the money for the purchase of a property goes via the lawyers. The buyer sends their money to the lawyers client account and the lawyer then pays all expenses and the remainder goes to the vendor from this account.
I would not think that the government would be able to touch these accounts as the money is there for a specific reason and only in the account for a very short time. The vendor can ask for their money to paid into a Uk account so this would not be affected either.


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## roberda

The Cyprus Parliment are voting to-morrow (Sun) to make this legall .....


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## Guest

roberda said:


> The Cyprus Parliment are voting to-morrow (Sun) to make this legall .....


There is a Swedish saying that in English is "voting under the gallows"

This must be one of these times

Anders


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## tunstall44

Veronica said:


> The thing is that people only look at things from one angle.
> 
> If I had been paying tax in the UK on my pension and on my earnings here I would have paid considerably more than I have. You can earn up to &#128;19.500 before tax here.
> Also we tried to open a savings account in the Uk and because we live abroad we were offered a measly 0.06 of a percent interest. Not allowed to have a high interest account as we live abroad. Here we are getting 4 percent on our savings.
> This is why so many people who don't even live here have opened bank accounts in Cypriot banks and it is hgardly surprising that the banks and the country are now struggling.
> As I said in an earlier post, our accountant tells us that no concrete decision has been made yet but if we have to pay then we can't complain if it means that the country we have chosen to make our home is saved from total collapse.
> There is little point in moaning about something that we cannot change.


Your accountant hasn't it seems read the news and seen the queues outside the banks, they'll be bigger on Tuesday,if it wasn't concrete why can you not withdraw funds from the ATM, why couldn't I pay suppliers today, the government knew there would a capital flight and put steps in place to stop it. 

It all very well pointing out the advantages of retiring here, but if the thousand had decided to go elsewhere Cyprus would still be a little fishing port whose main export would be the population, the expats have poured their hard earned income into the country with promises of a better standard of living, instead they are used as a piggy bank as soon as the government is strapped for cash, many of my members have return to the UK, and if this continues I will move my business to the UK and put a few more on the dole here, where the taxes may be a little higher, but at least I'm not Discriminated against


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## Guest

tunstall44 said:


> Your accountant hasn't it seems read the news and seen the queues outside the banks, they'll be bigger on Tuesday,if it wasn't concrete why can you not withdraw funds from the ATM, why couldn't I pay suppliers today, the government knew there would a capital flight and put steps in place to stop it.
> 
> It all very well pointing out the advantages of retiring here, but if the thousand had decided to go elsewhere Cyprus would still be a little fishing port whose main export would be the population, the expats have poured their hard earned income into the country with promises of a better standard of living, instead they are used as a piggy bank as soon as the government is strapped for cash, many of my members have return to the UK, and if this continues I will move my business to the UK and put a few more on the dole here, where the taxes may be a little higher, but at least I'm not Discriminated against


To be frank, perhaps the Cypriots had been better off.

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Our accountant has just rung to say he now has it officially that it is going to happen.
As I said there is nothing we can do to change things but I am sure there will be some protests on the streets of Nicosia next week.


----------



## Veronica

malcb123 said:


> Hi all, been reading your thread with great interest, as I fly into Cyprus Sunday 24th to live, I believe Monday 25th is a bank holiday, so Tuesday I will be looking to open a bank account, if you have any banks still left open after the rush to withdraw money. I have been briefed not to bank to much, only what I need to pay out each month. keep up the good work


A lot of expat pensioners do that. Get your pension paid into your UK bank and just bring over what you need as you need it.
Most Brits who have large nest eggs tend to have them in offshore investments and the people who will be affected the most by this measure will be those who work here and have their money paid into Cypriot banks.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> A lot of expat pensioners do that. Get your pension paid into your UK bank and just bring over what you need as you need it.
> Most Brits who have large nest eggs tend to have them in offshore investments and the people who will be affected the most by this measure will be those who work here and have their money paid into Cypriot banks.


Meaning that the people mostly hit will be Cypriots, not expats


Anders


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## Ash Jez

This is ludicrous. What I think will now happen is that any country that is in financial difficulty will have savers withdraw all their money. Let's face it, the savings are earning next to nothing anyway so if it is likely to be stolen like this, it's better kept in a safe in your own home.


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## roberda

I do think that this is a problem for the cypriots and those expats who have bank accounts in cyprus NOT those from others who do not live here or have bank accounts here, and so does not affect them..... In other words keep your nose out if it does not affect you dirrect ...


----------



## Guest

roberda said:


> I do think that this is a problem for the cypriots and those expats who have bank accounts in cyprus NOT those from others who do not live here or have bank accounts here, and so does not affect them..... In other words keep your nose out if it does not affect you dirrect ...


what the h..l is this about??

Anders


----------



## roberda

What it says ................


----------



## Guest

roberda said:


> What it says ................


Who are you to decide which forum members have the right to post in the forum??


----------



## MaidenScotland

roberda said:


> I do think that this is a problem for the cypriots and those expats who have bank accounts in cyprus NOT those from others who do not live here or have bank accounts here, and so does not affect them..... In other words keep your nose out if it does not affect you dirrect ...



this forum is open to anyone who does not abuse it.. regardless of the country of residence.


----------



## Ash Jez

roberda said:


> I do think that this is a problem for the cypriots and those expats who have bank accounts in cyprus NOT those from others who do not live here or have bank accounts here, and so does not affect them..... In other words keep your nose out if it does not affect you dirrect ...


A most uncalled for comment.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Keep to the subject please..


----------



## Guest

The way i see it is this scenario could happen in the UK as well as any eu country...if there is a a run on the banks ie pulling monies out then the scenario for cyprus and the whole of the EU could be very worrying ..all in my opinion of course...but what really is worrying is that they have accessed peoples bank accounts which is very very worrying...Good luck to all concerned ..


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> The way i see it is this scenario could happen in the UK as well as any eu country...if there is a a run on the banks ie pulling monies out then the scenario for cyprus and the whole of the EU could be very worrying ..all in my opinion of course...but what really is worrying is that they have accessed peoples bank accounts which is very very worrying...Good luck to all concerned ..


In my view its worrying if this sets some kind of standard, that every government can do this. Most countries in EU have bad economy......

Anders


----------



## Guest

Vegaanders said:


> In my view its worrying if this sets some kind of standard, that every government can do this. Most countries in EU have bad economy......
> 
> Anders


But whatever happens we will move to Cyprus in 3 weeks, bring some job opportunities with us and try to contribute to the Cyprus economy, this is the only way forward in my opinion

Anders


----------



## Ash Jez

First I'll say that I would be horrified to be in the same situation as those in Cyprus with money in banks or in any position where I had money in their banking system. I may be bombed here but here goes. In some respects I feel this could be a good idea but having said this, bad in that once the money is gone, it's gone. If some sort of system could be developed where the money was borrowed then perhaps, one could accept it slightly more. The country is in a situation of financial chaos and obviously, something needs to be done before it becomes bankrupt and even greater losses incurred. Austerity measures obviously are not working and apart from that, those in high place are seldom the people that suffer such measures. We frequently hear of top dogs receiving massive payouts in bonuses and the like. People such as these should be targeted first as it is them, in fact, that are much more responsible for the present problems both there and throughout the rest of the world.

The introduction of a tax such as this may appear to resolve some problems in the short term, but overall, in my view, it will do the country more damage in the long term. Also, anything that happens in Cyprus, does effect other countries and in particular EU member states. One of the biggest worries is that a taxation system such as this, could very well be introduced in other places such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and the like making these countries far less safe for future investment by both business investment and from a private point of view.

When figures are mention of below and above 100K, again, a very unfair system has been thought out. Someone that is living on perhaps 30K of bank savings with almost no interest income is going to be affected far more than someone with 99K. Still, the idea is very poorly thought out where should such drastic measure need to have taken into account of disposable income rather than savings.

Throughout much of the western world living standards have dropped drastically with many, many people now living below the poverty line. Some of those people are with savings but remain living in such appalling conditions of little heat and food through choice, simply because they are extremely concern as to what is around the next corner.

Those that have saved have done so to create a better life for themselves and as usual, penalised for being responsible. Money in the bank should be considered as safe but unfortunately, this is even less the case now and with a precedent now having been set that could influence governments throughout the world.

So what is the answer? I wish I knew.


----------



## Guest

Ash Jez said:


> First I'll say that I would be horrified to be in the same situation as those in Cyprus with money in banks or in any position where I had money in their banking system. I may be bombed here but here goes. In some respects I feel this could be a good idea but having said this, bad in that once the money is gone, it's gone. If some sort of system could be developed where the money was borrowed then perhaps, one could accept it slightly more. The country is in a situation of financial chaos and obviously, something needs to be done before it becomes bankrupt and even greater losses incurred. Austerity measures obviously are not working and apart from that, those in high place are seldom the people that suffer such measures. We frequently hear of top dogs receiving massive payouts in bonuses and the like. People such as these should be targeted first as it is them, in fact, that are much more responsible for the present problems both there and throughout the rest of the world.
> 
> The introduction of a tax such as this may appear to resolve some problems in the short term, but overall, in my view, it will do the country more damage in the long term. Also, anything that happens in Cyprus, does effect other countries and in particular EU member states. One of the biggest worries is that a taxation system such as this, could very well be introduced in other places such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and the like making these countries far less safe for future investment by both business investment and from a private point of view.
> 
> When figures are mention of below and above 100K, again, a very unfair system has been thought out. Someone that is living on perhaps 30K of bank savings with almost no interest income is going to be affected far more than someone with 99K. Still, the idea is very poorly thought out where should such drastic measure need to have taken into account of disposable income rather than savings.
> 
> Throughout much of the western world living standards have dropped drastically with many, many people now living below the poverty line. Some of those people are with savings but remain living in such appalling conditions of little heat and food through choice, simply because they are extremely concern as to what is around the next corner.
> 
> Those that have saved have done so to create a better life for themselves and as usual, penalised for being responsible. Money in the bank should be considered as safe but unfortunately, this is even less the case now and with a precedent now having been set that could influence governments throughout the world.
> 
> So what is the answer? I wish I knew.


I agree in what you say but why do you not mention UK or any other country with big debts as a possible country to implement this tax?

Anders


----------



## Ash Jez

Vegaanders said:


> I agree in what you say but why do you not mention UK or any other country with big debts as a possible country to implement this tax?
> 
> Anders


 This could apply to any country. That said, I feel the UK Government know it would destroy itself and the country simply as the UK is so dependent of foreign investment. If potential investors were to even suspect that money or assets were under future threat, they would stay well clear.

Apart from that, huge saving can be made very easily if the state were not to hand out money left right and centre. And why it does so is beyond me.

I can't comment on many countries but perhaps the same could apply to the US.


----------



## Bedu1

Many governments will be monitoring this situation very closely to see how it plays out. Notwithstanding the postponement of Cyprus' parliamentary deliberations for a day, if the precedent IS established, and when the initial level of political fallout abates to ambient background noise, others countries may evaluate their options......


----------



## PeteandSylv

Ash Jez, I agree and understand your comments although I cannot call this "haircut" a tax. It is simply a theft of money I have worked for and paid all due taxes on. No equity document in return for my money will ever get anywhere near the value stolen.

The demands for this theft by the EU whose loudest voices were from Germany and the Netherlands is a disgrace. I would hope that Cypriots and ex-pats would all apply a boycott on goods from these countries.

Within the rest of the EU people would be well advised to be cautious as this EU demand has destroyed any concept of the banks holding money on your behalf safely. There are many banks in the EU in precarious positions and this represents the final nail in the coffin for holding any respect for the banking industry although for once the bankers cannot be blamed for this particular event.

Pete


----------



## Guest

Ash Jez said:


> This could apply to any country. That said, I feel the UK Government know it would destroy itself and the country simply as the UK is so dependent of foreign investment. If potential investors were to even suspect that money or assets were under future threat, they would stay well clear.
> 
> Apart from that, huge saving can be made very easily if the state were not to hand out money left right and centre. And why it does so is beyond me.
> 
> I can't comment on many countries but perhaps the same could apply to the US.


I don't think US ever will be able to handle their debt. They live a little on borrowed time. The day that China say no more money to US, that day US and the rest of the world will go down

Anders


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## Guest

In news they now say that the chairman of EU parliament have suggested that accounts with a balance below 25000 euro should not be touched

Anders


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## Veronica

Pete I am very excited about getting an equity document from the bank in return for the money the government is going to steal from me. I will go out immdiately and sell my shares in this worthless bank and maybe make all of 1 cent in the euro. I'll be rich. HA HA.


----------



## Megsmum

I am not expat in cyprus or anywhere but will be so I hope you do not mind me asking a question .. Reading the thread with interest.

When the reports say people with "savings" are they referring to actual savings accounts, where interest is paid ( well if you can call the miserly sums interest paid) or ordinary accounts ie regular current account. In other words any money you have in any bank is doomed to have this money deducted on Tuesday.


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Ash Jez, I agree and understand your comments although I cannot call this "haircut" a tax. It is simply a theft of money I have worked for and paid all due taxes on. No equity document in return for my money will ever get anywhere near the value stolen.
> 
> The demands for this theft by the EU whose loudest voices were from Germany and the Netherlands is a disgrace. I would hope that Cypriots and ex-pats would all apply a boycott on goods from these countries.
> 
> Within the rest of the EU people would be well advised to be cautious as this EU demand has destroyed any concept of the banks holding money on your behalf safely. There are many banks in the EU in precarious positions and this represents the final nail in the coffin for holding any respect for the banking industry although for once the bankers cannot be blamed for this particular event.
> 
> Pete


There would probably be another way out if it was not for the russian money in Cyprus which they estimate will give 1,5 billion Euro in "haircut"

But would it be better to raise the income tax on all income and profits to 25%? No one could say that the government have no right to raise income and capital gains tax

Anders


----------



## Ash Jez

PeteandSylv said:


> The demands for this theft by the EU whose loudest voices were from Germany and the Netherlands is a disgrace. I would hope that Cypriots and ex-pats would all apply a boycott on goods from these countries.


 Plain and simple, this is a theft and in no way should be called a tax. The problem is, is that our leaders do these things and we, the honest working class with taxes paid, that live responsible lives are always the ones to suffer. That has always been the case and I can't see it changing. It could though, if only people were to unite and fight the system and fight for their rights. Boycott, yes this is possible but at the end of the day, everyone is out for themselves and as I mentioned, unity is needed.

Take the UK. Everyone moans about the cost of fuel and continues to pay even though we all know we are being ripped off. We hear about barrel prices but the simple fact is, the tax is the greater part of the cost. What is needed is for everyone to say, right, we are not going to purchase petrol/diesel. The government would try and hold out and in the end win the day as all to many are not prepared to go through inconvenience of walking and stand their ground.

If I remember correctly, many years ago Japan had some huge import duty on foreign cars. Something like 40% as they wanted to protect their own market and at the same time were exporting cars to the UK at very reasonable prices. The UK government never imposed the same import tax in retaliation and what happened, the motor industry was destroyed over the years with the additional help of unions.


----------



## Ash Jez

Vegaanders said:


> But would it be better to raise the income tax on all income and profits to 25%? No one could say that the government have no right to raise income and capital gains tax
> 
> Anders


I disagree. If taxes need to be raised, then those increases need to be fair and paid by those that can afford the additional taxes.


----------



## Strovolian

Hi all - my first post, but have been a long time reader.

I'm currently in Cyprus half-way through importing a car.

My mother has retired here after 40 years of working in England. Her entire life-savings are here, the money she is depending on for the rest of her life.

To discover that she is to lose up to 10% as a reward for being frugal and careful all of her life has shaken her to the core. What does she want with the shares in the banking system which may one day become worth what she is to have stolen from her savings? I expect that day will be the day after I sprout wings.

It is even more distressing to hear that Chancellor Osborne is saying that government employees and military personnel will be compensated. Are UK pensioners second class citizens then? What is the worth of a British passport any more if you live abroad?

I have written to my MP and my EuroMPs. If the Euro zone can pressure a nation in to stealing from its own citizens and others like retired UK citizens, whose to say it won't happen in other Euro-countries.

As soon as I am back in the UK I will be looking to put savings in a safer place than the banks - probably a shoe box under the bed.


----------



## Ash Jez

PeteandSylv said:


> although for once the bankers cannot be blamed for this particular event.
> 
> Pete


 But let us ask ourselves this question. Was it not the irresponsible lending in the first place that has caused this later problem?


----------



## Ash Jez

Strovolian said:


> Are UK pensioners second class citizens then?
> 
> 
> 
> As soon as I am back in the UK I will be looking to put savings in a safer place than the banks - probably a shoe box under the bed.


Yes, pensioners are considered as second class citizens when every Tom, Dick and Harry walks into England and immediately received far more than the elderly that have worked their lives in the UK.

Shoe box. Bad idea. Think fire. Under the bed, think thief. £150 safe in the wall is the way to go.


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## Guest

The End of Britain - FSPonline-recommends.co.uk 


A scenario that was forecast months ago..worth listening to..


----------



## Guest

Poor, poor Brits. And a conservative government many years to come


Anders


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## Veronica

This article explains a lot more about what went on at the Friday meeting. 
It owuld appear that the Cyprus government were not given a choice. This whole debacle was dreamed up by Germany and the IMF.

Cyprus News


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> This article explains a lot more about what went on at the Friday meeting.
> It owuld appear that the Cyprus government were not given a choice. This whole debacle was dreamed up by Germany and the IMF.
> 
> Cyprus News


I have no doubt that they had a choice, but the alternative, also described in the article is not an option. it would made Cyprus go under. Think of Iceland where the banks were allowed to default and Iceland did not agree to cover the debt. As I remember many brits were loosing a lot of money. 

Anders


----------



## jojo

trev1234 said:


> The End of Britain - FSPonline-recommends.co.uk
> 
> 
> A scenario that was forecast months ago..worth listening to..


A nice advert for them - they tell you the doom and gloom that we all know about, but with a well chosen, despairing voice and then....... if you get your free three issues of their silly magazine (and then have to pay for more) they'll tell you how to avoid the problem - a world wide problem! Hhhmmm, I dont dispute all of what they say, altho it is very much slanted, but it really is just an advert and they aint gonna save the country or the world!


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> A nice advert for them - they tell you the doom and gloom that we all know about, but with a well chosen, despairing voice and then....... if you get your free three issues of their silly magazine (and then have to pay for more) they'll tell you how to avoid the problem - a world wide problem! Hhhmmm, I dont dispute all of what they say, altho it is very much slanted, but it really is just an advert and they aint gonna save the country or the world!


I think very few people really bothers about that site and magazine

Anders


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## Ash Jez

Here is an interesting read from the Daily Mail


----------



## tunstall44

Vegaanders said:


> To be frank, perhaps the Cypriots had been better off.
> 
> Anders


if you mean the Cypriots would be better off, I'll send round mine to yours for a job, many forget that not only do the 30,000 British live and contribute to the local economy with foreign money obtained overseas and spent here, many others of the 30,000 provide employment to locals that otherwise wouldn't have that work, many of us provide foreign investment and do not derive our funds from Cyprus, from which we pay tax on, all that input and still they steal not only from the companies but their employees as well. We'll wait for the vote tonight, however the damage has been done, it's national news not only in Cyprus not in most of the world


----------



## Guest

tunstall44 said:


> if you mean the Cypriots would be better off, I'll send round mine to yours for a job, many forget that not only do the 30,000 British live and contribute to the local economy with foreign money obtained overseas and spent here, many others of the 30,000 provide employment to locals that otherwise wouldn't have that work, many of us provide foreign investment and do not derive our funds from Cyprus, from which we pay tax on, all that input and still they steal not only from the companies but their employees as well. We'll wait for the vote tonight, however the damage has been done, it's national news not only in Cyprus not in most of the world


What I mean is that if the "outsiders" never came, perhaps it would be different. Now it is to late, the damage is already done.

There is no vote tonight, it will be tomorrow earliest. And if the vote is no then there is no way back. Sad but true. Germany has clearly stated that this agreement or no agreement. And without Germany, no agreement or money.

Anders


----------



## titania

It is reported by ITV that the bank holiday will be stretched by an extra day and banks will not open on Tuesday, but on Wednesday. You may want to check locally. The link for this story is here Cyprus savings snatch threat - ITV News


----------



## Bedu1

Strovolian said:


> It is even more distressing to hear that Chancellor Osborne is saying that government employees and military personnel will be compensated. Are UK pensioners second class citizens then?


I think the point that Osborne was making is that UK service personnel who are deployed to Cyprus are there performing their duty for their country, and without choice. Those individuals who have opted to retire to Cyprus, many of them service personnel, have done so electively. I certainly don't think that the intention was to deliberately slight any retiree.


----------



## theresoon

All people living in Eurozone should be extremely worried. This has never happened anywhere since the Bank Deposit Insurance were instituted after the great depression. This in effect says THERE IS NO BANK DEPOSIT INSURANCE IN THE EUROZONE.
The Spaniards had very good reasons to be protesting today.
Also the simplest accounting principles say that bond holders and shareholders are the first to lose. NOT THE DEPOSITORS.

To me this is the first move to destroy the European Banking system and the Euro.

Just a few years ago these were very solid banks with high ratings. Nobody financially savvy had to think twice about bringing their money here. This will spark a mass withdrawal from all European banks and into other banks


----------



## Guest

theresoon said:


> All people living in Eurozone should be extremely worried. This has never happened anywhere since the Bank Deposit Insurance were instituted after the great depression. This in effect says THERE IS NO BANK DEPOSIT INSURANCE IN THE EUROZONE.
> The Spaniards had very good reasons to be protesting today.
> Also the simplest accounting principles say that bond holders and shareholders are the first to lose. NOT THE DEPOSITORS.
> 
> To me this is the first move to destroy the European Banking system and the Euro.
> 
> Just a few years ago these were very solid banks with high ratings. Nobody financially savvy had to think twice about bringing their money here. This will spark a mass withdrawal from all European banks and into other banks


I started this thread this morning and now its 10-11 pages. But I have not seen ONE suggestion about what to do instead. This measures are not fair but no one seems to be able to give an alternative

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> I started this thread this morning and now its 10-11 pages. But I have not seen ONE suggestion about what to do instead. This measures are not fair but no one seems to be able to give an alternative
> 
> Anders


Thats because there is no alternative. If this dosn't happen when the banks reopen two of the biggest banks go under immediately and many people will lose everything because I don't believe that the guarantee of our money being safe can be implemented. How can a bankrupt government pay back anyones money?
At least the government didn't capitualte completely and agree to Germanys demands of 40%.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I started this thread this morning and now its 10-11 pages. But I have not seen ONE suggestion about what to do instead. This measures are not fair but no one seems to be able to give an alternative
> 
> Anders


I think if you look back I spoke of raising legitimate taxes and the establishment of assurances for the EU regarding gas revenues. No other EU country has any resources that have the money making capability of Cyprus's gas and I see only 1 reason that this should not be collateral for the bailout. That reason is Germany.

The "haircut" is totally the wrong process to encourage growth and spending which is the correct way to raise tax revenue, increase employment and encourage investment.

Pete


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> Thats because there is no alternative. If this dosn't happen when the banks reopen two of the biggest banks go under immediately and many people will lose everything because I don't believe that the guarantee of our money being safe can be implemented. How can a bankrupt government pay back anyones money?
> At least the government didn't capitualte completely and agree to Germanys demands of 40%.


No and it seems that up to 25000 will not be affected

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> No and it seems that up to 25000 will not be affected
> 
> Anders


Where have you heard that?


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> Where have you heard that?


Chairman of European Parliament said in TV intervju and then it was in a forum that some government minister had said that this delay in voting was because of this change

Anders


----------



## theresoon

The demands were not for 40% but for 17% for deposits over 100k.

Suggestions? 
Privatize Privatize Privatize. Instead of having to inject the so called semigovernment sector to run inefficiently, sell them, so your public gets better service at lower prices and you get to tax their income!
Cut government employee benefits to bring them inline with the private sector.
Stimulate growth as Pete says. Take a look at the handling of the last Argentinian crisis. We are talking about e16b. here this is peanuts compared to the rest of the European economies.
Of course, by the end of the week this might be remember as a game for strong nerves, apparently there are Russians on their way to negotiate the purchase the two banks that are in trouble. One is reported as saying it will cost him less to buy Popular bank than have the "haircut" on his money at the bank.


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> I've just popped over from the Portugal forum but to me, the obvious thing they should have done was just refuse to commit the financial piracy and just tell the EU to go to hell and go bankrupt........ if you owe someone a little, then you worry but if you owe someone a lot then they worry and if the Govt had done that, I'm sure the EU would have run around like chickens with their heads cut off because they well know that if one country goes then others may follow.
> 
> AS it is, this Zimbabwe style bank piracy has weakened the entire worldwide banking system because everyone with money in the bank, everywhere in the world be aware that a precedent has been set and will at the very least be nervous about the safety of their money.
> 
> I reckon this hijack is the worst possible solution they could have decided on and I'll be astounded if there aren't riots in several European countries over it.


So you mean that the alternative is that all the banks go bankrupt and all Cypriots will loose all money. I dont think so.

And I also think that EU could think of letting Cyprus go, with small effects. 

But still as I said, no one has showed me an alternative. I tried the raise of income tax to 25% for all but that was not popular either

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> I tried the raise of income tax to 25% for all but that was not popular either
> 
> Anders


You keep your grubby hands off my money Anders


----------



## Guest

theresoon said:


> The demands were not for 40% but for 17% for deposits over 100k.
> 
> Suggestions?
> Privatize Privatize Privatize. Instead of having to inject the so called semigovernment sector to run inefficiently, sell them, so your public gets better service at lower prices and you get to tax their income!
> Cut government employee benefits to bring them inline with the private sector.
> Stimulate growth as Pete says. Take a look at the handling of the last Argentinian crisis. We are talking about e16b. here this is peanuts compared to the rest of the European economies.
> Of course, by the end of the week this might be remember as a game for strong nerves, apparently there are Russians on their way to negotiate the purchase the two banks that are in trouble. One is reported as saying it will cost him less to buy Popular bank than have the "haircut" on his money at the bank.


That is a EU suggestion that Russia buy Popular bank. I think Cyprus finance minister is on his way to Moscow.

I agree with you about what you say but Cyprus old and new government has refused to even discuss privatizations

Also I agree that the money needed is peanuts. And the gas will probably get things going but as Pete also say perhaps someone need to control the government what they do with the money.


I think the main problem was the timeframe. 

All what we discussed take time to implement

Anders


----------



## theresoon

Vegaanders said:


> So you mean that the alternative is that all the banks go bankrupt and all Cypriots will loose all money. I dont think so.
> 
> And I also think that EU could think of letting Cyprus go, with small effects.
> 
> But still as I said, no one has showed me an alternative. I tried the raise of income tax to 25% for all but that was not popular either
> 
> Anders


The effect of letting go wont be small. Remember the gas is what Europe wants from Cyprus. If Cyprus departs Europe can say bye bye to Cyprus' gas potential while Gasprom says Katsingggggggggggggg!


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> I've just popped over from the Portugal forum but to me, the obvious thing they should have done was just refuse to commit the financial piracy and just tell the EU to go to hell, go bankrupt & pull out of the Euro........ if you owe someone a little, then you worry but if you owe someone a lot then they worry and if the Govt had done that, I'm sure the EU would have run around like chickens with their heads cut off because they well know that if one country goes then others may follow.
> 
> AS it is, this Zimbabwe style bank piracy has weakened the entire worldwide banking system because everyone with money in the bank, everywhere in the world be aware that a precedent has been set and will at the very least be nervous about the safety of their money.
> 
> I reckon this hijack is the worst possible solution they could have decided on and I'll be astounded if there aren't riots in several European countries over it.


That is the stupidest suggestion I have heard yet
If the country goes bankrupt there will be so many people out of work the streets will be full of beggars begging for money from the few people still earning anything at all. There are already a large number of families in the most dire straits, unable to feed their children and having to rely on handouts because they can't get help from social, making the country bankrupt will make matters far worse.


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> Anders,
> 
> Why would the people necessarily lose their money?
> 
> The country would go bankrupt and the EU would have to wait for their money (and they're doing that now) but the banks would just convert their investors money to the local currency or new currency.
> 
> If Cyprus were managed properly and was without debt that could be claimed (as it would be if it had gone bankrupt) I see no reason why it would struggle any more than it is now and in fact, it'd probably do a lot better.


Greece has been on the same road. But remember that all loans taken is taken in Euro. If Cyprus decide to go bankrupt, and change currency and the banks want to convert the investors money to local currency the exchange rate will be so bad, perhaps 1 euro will cost 50 cyprus pound, and the interest on state loans will be extremely high because the no lender will trust that they get the money back.

Anders


----------



## jojo

Vegaanders said:


> Greece has been on the same road. But remember that all loans taken is taken in Euro. If Cyprus decide to go bankrupt, and change currency and the banks want to convert the investors money to local currency the exchange rate will be so bad, perhaps 1 euro will cost 50 cyprus pound, and the interest on state loans will be extremely high because the no lender will trust that they get the money back.
> 
> Anders


 and how on earth would Greece be able to afford exports, such as petrol, gas, fuel, food..........

Jo xxxx


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> So in other words, if the country goes bankrupt and refuses to repay the EU loans, it'll probably result is a similar situation as the country has now but without the citizens having their bank accounts raided, without the ludicrous amount of debt and with no further interference from the EU.
> 
> Sounds good to me.



The problem will be that the money will be worth peanuts. And the banks will go to, meaning that there will be no money for the people at all. Not 7-10 % gone, 100% will be gone. Better? I dont think so.

Anders


----------



## virgil

How Cyprus bailout fiasco could cause chaos - The Commentator


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> So in other words, if the country goes bankrupt and refuses to repay the EU loans, it'll probably result is a similar situation as the country has now but without the citizens having their bank accounts raided, without the ludicrous amount of debt and with no further interference from the EU.
> 
> Sounds good to me.


What planet are you on?????????????
How would it be good when our money is worthless so no one can afford to buy food or pay mortgages or rent?


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> I appreciate the new currency won't be worth what the Euro is worth but unless the country follows Zimbabwe (or perhaps EU?) style economic policies, it probably wouldn't be any worse off than it was in pre Euro times and the country does after all have good tourism/tourism potential and natural resources etc so it's hardly going to be adrift without a lifeline......... it'll just have to sink or swim as we all do.


But if Cyprus default, all cyprus banks will also go Bankrupt. That means that all money disappear. Is that really a good alternative?


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> Veronica
> 
> I'd have expected a moderator to have far better manners than to post such a rude comment.
> 
> You should be ashamed of yourself!
> 
> As to your question. Why should you think your money would be worthless?
> 
> In pre Euro times, people were using the local currency and although not poor, they weren't dying of starvation so why should it be any different this time around.
> 
> To say nothing of the fact that you appear to be British and probably have some kind of UKP income so in your particular case, it'd probably be a help to you so it's hardly 'we' is it?


I dont think Veronica is worried about the expats but about the Cypriots that will loose 100 % of their savings. And Cyprus must still import a lot of things. But what will the price be


----------



## jojo

travelling-man said:


> Veronica
> 
> I'd have expected a moderator to have far better manners than to post such a rude comment.
> 
> You should be ashamed of yourself!
> 
> As to your question. Why should you think your money would be worthless?
> 
> In pre Euro times, people were using the local currency and although not poor, they weren't dying of starvation so why should it be any different this time around.
> 
> To say nothing of the fact that you appear to be British and probably have some kind of UKP income so in your particular case, it'd probably be a help to you so it's hardly 'we' is it?


I think her comments were borne out of frustration. Your view point is quaint, but not practical

Jo xxx


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> Veronica
> 
> I'd have expected a moderator to have far better manners than to post such a rude comment.
> 
> You should be ashamed of yourself!
> 
> As to your question. Why should you think your money would be worthless?
> 
> In pre Euro times, people were using the local currency and although not poor, they weren't dying of starvation so why should it be any different this time around.
> 
> To say nothing of the fact that you appear to be British and probably have some kind of UKP income so in your particular case, it'd probably be a help to you so it's hardly 'we' is it?


There are already people (Cypriots) on t he breadline, with young children getting very little food except what is donated (mostly by Brits) to a charity that has been formed to try to help.
They can't heat their houses so through this win ter there have been pleas for blankets and warm clothes for these people.
If the country goes bankrupt the value of the money in the banks will be almost worthless, food will be too expensive for anyone never mind the families who are already suffering.


----------



## jojo

travelling-man said:


> There's no reason whatsoever the Cypriots will lose all their money and be penniless. All that would happen is the banks would convert their clients savings from Euros to the new currency (and then carry on banking) ....... possibly/probably at a bad initial rate but rather than than have the Govt simply steal a percentage of their money and of course, once it's been done once, there's nothing to suggest the Govt won't come back for second or even third helpings at some time in the future.
> 
> Banking has been around since the Knights Templar's times and it's always relied on trusting the bank with your money and this move removes that trust completely.



Please tell me how the government will buy its imports???? especially oil which is paid for by the USdollar?? Or wont its currency drop against that??

Jo xx


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## jojo

travelling-man said:


> Whether frustrated or not, she was wrong to post such a comment on a public forum (especially as she's a moderator) and I feel she owes me an apology........ I doubt I'll get one though as her previous arrogant comment tells me a lot about her.
> 
> As for my opinion being quaint and impractical....... My opinions are as valid as anyone else's here.
> 
> Although some may think they're quaint and impractical there's many out there in the media and financial world saying exactly what I am...... not least amongst them several people on Sky News last night.
> 
> If she or anyone else disagrees with me, that's fine and I enjoy a polite debate and/or discussion but her comments were just plain rude and pig ignorant.


 Mods have opinions too, we're human - most of us lol. So tell me how you're all going to manage without cars, electricity and creature comforts??? Hey, what about internet?? Will you still be able to post on here??? lol

Jo xxx


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## theresoon

On the Cyprus forum we allow each other to be rude. That way we get our frustration out.

Now, back on the serious part of the discussion.
Japan has just opened, it will be interesting to see what the Euro does today.
Everyone seems to be ignoring the implications of this throughout Europe. Cyprus is only a tiny country with a very small economy. This will set a precedent though for the Eurozone.


----------



## Guest

travelling-man said:


> There's no reason whatsoever the Cypriots will lose all their money and be penniless. All that would happen is the banks would convert their clients savings from Euros to the new currency (and then carry on banking) ....... possibly/probably at a bad initial rate but rather than than have the Govt simply steal a percentage of their money and of course, once it's been done once, there's nothing to suggest the Govt won't come back for second or even third helpings at some time in the future.
> 
> Banking has been around since the Knights Templar's times and it's always relied on trusting the bank with your money and this move removes that trust completely.


Bakrupt banks have no money what so ever, they have only a lot of debts to the investors.

So where should the people get their money?

Anders


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> I've only just seen this comment.
> 
> The country has good tourism & potential for more and incidentally, can charge for this in hard currency. It also has natural resources and if it pulled out of the EU, it'd have no debt so would probably have more money than it has now.
> 
> What's killing Cyprus and (some) other countries is the previous overspending encouraged by the EU & the debt that over spending has caused.
> 
> Get out of the EU, lose the debt by going bankrupt and scrap the Euro and the economy can then start to recover.
> 
> My opinion may not be popular with some here but there are plenty of people, including many financially trained out there that agree with me.


So the banks go bankrupt which means everyone who has any money in those banks loses everything. So what about the people who over the last year or two have been made redundant, can not find another job, can't get any welfare after 6 months out of work and the last of their redundancy money which they have been existing on suddenly dissapears. What will they live on ? How will they feed their children? How will they put clothes on their childrens backs?


----------



## jojo

travelling-man said:


> I don't understand why you think that.
> 
> whatever gold reserves Cyprus & the banks etc had on the day it dumped the Euro, it'd still have the day after.
> 
> All they're doing is changing the money symbol on the accounts and the physical currency.
> 
> Admittedly, the new currency would have to be floated and it's value will be an unknown quantity until it was floated but it's not going to mimic the Zimbabwe dollar. It'll settle to a fair exchange rate.
> 
> The main thing is you lose the debt.


 I dont think the banks would be allowed to keep any money/financial assets - not if they're bankrupt - its taken away. As for floating the currency - it wouldnt float, it would sink and then anything you wanted to buy from outside of the country would be extortionate - ie petrol, oil, manufactured goods, food - everything from outside of Cyprus would be price prohibitive and wouldnt be available

Jo xxx


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## jojo

Live Blog: The Cypriot Haircut

jo xxx


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## theresoon

Euro opened 1.1% down Monday morning in the Asian Markets.


----------



## jojo

travelling-man said:


> She does indeed have a right to express her opinion and I'd encourage her to express it BUT in a polite manner...... but as previously stated, I doubt she'll be a big enough person to acknowledge her ill manners and apologise.
> 
> What makes you think you'll go without cars, petrol, food or anything else. The money doesn't just all disappear.
> 
> All that happens in the Govt and banks etc still keep the same gold reserves as they had before and their value remains the same. All that happens is the money symbol on the bank statements and the currency change.......... oh and you lose all that debt that's causing all the financial problems in the first place.


 yes it does just disappear! Money is a promise and without the promise to pay the bearer its worthless. When you go to the bank to draw out some cash for the week and the bank is closed until further notice - no wages for the workers.........

Jo xxxx


----------



## jojo

theresoon said:


> Euro opened 1.1% down Monday morning in the Asian Markets.


 .... and herein lies a problem for the whole of the eurozone!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## jojo

travelling-man said:


> If they're not getting anything from the EU now, how can they be worse off without the EU?
> 
> Or put it another way
> 
> If the EU is making their lives worse, how can dumping the EU not make things better.
> 
> Or put it another way
> 
> It's the debt to the EU that's killing the economy so how can dumping that debt make things any worse?


look, think of it this way, if you're declared as bankrupt, what would happen to you??? Would you still carry on as normal? would you still be able to afford to live a relative life of luxury or would it make it impossible for you to borrow, to spend on anything - do you think that Europe is simply going to say, oh poor Cyprus, it mispent its money we *lent* it, so we'll let them off paying it back, we'll carry on supporting them and buying their exports?? Countries, businesses and indeed people - you who've invested their money into Cyprus will pull their money out before they lose it. then what. Someone will decide to make different money so that everything will carry on as normal - just keep printing more of this new money and take its value away?? Hey, they could go to the supermarkets and use toilet rolls and write a "Cyprus money" symbol on each sheet lol!!! Sorry, I'm being flippant 



Jo xxx


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## jojo

travelling-man said:


> Good question.
> 
> I've never been bankrupt but do know several people who have and although they lost their big houses and flash cars etc none died and most, if not all continued with fairly good lifestyles.
> 
> Taking it to the extreme, look at Freddie Laker who declared bankruptcy but still had a life of extreme luxury.
> 
> Yes, I do think people will still take advantage of Cyprus tourism and what's more, they'll pay in hard currency which is good for both the country and the individual concerned........ however, they may not be so keen to visit if they think their money might be stolen by the Government.
> 
> Other resources? - Yes, people/countries will still buy them from Cyprus as well if they're available at the right price. If the west will buy oil from countries such as Syria with appalling human rights records, they won't bat an eye at dealing with Cyprus.
> 
> Printing more and more money? - That's exactly what quantitative easing is and the EU, UK & US are going at it full tilt and have been for some considerable time. So Cyprus would be no worse off than those others.



Freddie Laker was in the UK and managed to siphon off funds by passing them thru family and friends, Besides, he's not a country, he had a country to fall back on. Cyprus cant do that. As for tourism, if Cyprus cant afford to import oil (altho if Gazprom buy in it may not have to???), then airports wont be open, so no tourists. I guess the best that could and would happen if it declares itself bankrupt and refuses all aid, would be a return to those days many years ago, when a cruiseliner came into dock with wealthy tourists, who'd throw coins to barefooted children begging in the streets - seriously! 

Jo xxx


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## Veronica

Well I have a busy day tomorrow and can't sit up all night trying to talk sense into someone who obvioulsy has none. YES that was a rude comment and NO I won't apologise for it.

Good night all


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## jojo

> Printing more and more money? - That's exactly what quantitative easing is and the EU, UK & US are going at it full tilt and have been for some considerable time. So Cyprus would be no worse off than those others


 But at least thats recognised money that can be used to buy imports, to pay workers, to fund the various businesses - anything that Cyprus makes up, would simply be "monopoly money" and worthless outside the game. For example, if you used it in a supermarket, how would the supermarket then use it to pay its suppliers in other countries, especially when it would be totally deflated and worthless???!! So theres another industry that would soon go bust - no supermarkets - just local shops, but no imported goods - the list of imported goods, even the small things is huge. 

Jo xxx


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## jojo

travelling-man said:


> Hey, you asked me about personal bankruptcy and I addressed the question that was asked accurately & honestly so I don't understand why you should question my reply?
> 
> As for aircraft well they can very easily fly in with enough fuel to get home or to the next destination without any problems whatsoever.
> 
> Barefoot children begging in the streets? .......... Hmmmm I seem to remember a rather ill mannered moderator who appears to have left the debate telling me how children now are in poverty.......... or am I wrong? - If not, what difference does it make to them except that they won't be living in a country that's saddled with debt for their lifetime and probably the lifetime of their children & grand children.
> 
> Fuel for the rest of the country? (which I appreciate you didn't mention) I'm nowhere near an expert on Cyprus but seem to remember that it has gas reserves....... and have no doubt that gas can be traded for oil etc.
> 
> I appreciate that the idea of leaving the EU scares a lot of people but (as much as I hate the expression) one needs to think outside the box and there's an awful lot of advantages to the idea of leaving and an awful lot of disadvantages to staying....... common sense tells us that sooner or later the Euro & Eurozone will eventually collapse and that it's just a matter of time as to when that happens.
> 
> As to Veronica. I note she says her comment was rude but that she won't apologise. That tells me even more about the woman and none of it is good.
> 
> Shame on her for making the comment and shame on her twice for admitting she was rude and yet being so ill mannered as to refuse to apologise.
> 
> Frankly, I'm glad I live in Portugal and will never have to meet such a person.
> 
> :focus:



I'm off to my bed now, but trust me, if it was that easy to untangle Europe, other countries would have done so years ago - I'm sure even you can see that europe is now financially tied to its member countries. It cant collapse - unfortunately. Think of the unpicking, the financial losses, the loss of trade....! From what I can see the only way its going to work is for it to do what it seems it was set out to do and thats to copy the USA model - and become the USE - No, thats not something I want to see, but its the only way I can see for it to sort itself. The poverty seen in Cyprus today is relative - I'm really not kidding when I say that without money or imports, Cyprus would return to a third world existence, as would many others. Please look at it logically and think about how life would be without imports, without money, without healthcare, without electricity, infrastructure, public services....... And if the EU starts to breakdown, then it will affect the others - even Portugal!!

Night night, sweet dreams lol!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Guest

Cyprus works on last-minute deal to soften bank levy | Reuters


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## Guest

trev1234 said:


> Cyprus works on last-minute deal to soften bank levy | Reuters


Russian news now state that the Gazprom boss is on his way to Cyprus to negotiate takeover of the two worst hit banks, Popular is one. In return Gazprom want the biggest peace of the gas. 

Will be interesting if this is true

Anders


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## timouna01

There are so many things to say about this situation. Yes it Can be taken like a theft and to critisize the gouvernement and the new measure. But why not to contribuate to save the country where we live by giving a bit of our money ? I prefer them doing that than starting to reduce the salary the pension selling the banks the gaz cyta etc... And then to find ourself in a big récession ! It has been proven that this does not work ... 
Whatever the case Life in cyprus is good and cheaper than many other country in Europe there are benefits so ok we have not been Warned but it was the only way for people not to run far away from cyprus with their money. 
There is def no better solution otherwise the other countries would have apply it long ago ... So i dont mind about this measure especially when in return they Will give shares of the banks/ gaz.


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## Guest

Archbishop Chrysostomos, the country’s religious leader and a former government supporter, was reported to have called for calm, but insisted Cypriots would never forget Europe’s behaviour. In his Sunday sermon, he thundered: ‘This is a villainy of Europeans. Cyprus must as soon as possible leave the eurozone.’ !!!! cypriots might not forget europeans who favour this behaviour either !!!

Read more: The great EU bank robbery: British taxpayers to bail out victims of outrageous raid | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## davidogden

There is worse to come I reckon the goverment is not meeting until Thurdays so are the cash machines going to be refilled. It would be better if the banks failed that way depositors could rely on bank Guarantee for some of thier money. The govement is split may be they will leave the Euro .

So what is the good news they will provide a bond for 50% of what they are stealing, why not 100% link to oil and gas. that would not be such a bitter pill.

They talked of taxing banking transactions,

I am still planning of moving to Cyprus in a month but had already made arrangement not to Trust local banks . I was considering using one of the coop banks if necessary rather than leading banks and I believe the coops maybe the only banks left


----------



## Guest

davidogden said:


> There is worse to come I reckon the goverment is not meeting until Thurdays so are the cash machines going to be refilled. It would be better if the banks failed that way depositors could rely on bank Guarantee for some of thier money. The govement is split may be they will leave the Euro .
> 
> So what is the good news they will provide a bond for 50% of what they are stealing, why not 100% link to oil and gas. that would not be such a bitter pill.
> 
> They talked of taxing banking transactions,
> 
> I am still planning of moving to Cyprus in a month but had already made arrangement not to Trust local banks . I was considering using one of the coop banks if necessary rather than leading banks and I believe the coops maybe the only banks left


For me 1 thing is not very secure to trust. If the banks go and probably also the state default then I doubt there will be any money for the guarantee either. From where should this huge amount of money come?

Anders


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## Guest

According to Interfax, the regional banking association's vice president Alexander Khandruiev has suggested that Russia negotiate a deal with Cyprus to reduce, or even eliminate the tax in return for further financial aid. looks like russia holds the cards for the cypriots..


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> According to Interfax, the regional banking association's vice president Alexander Khandruiev has suggested that Russia negotiate a deal with Cyprus to reduce, or even eliminate the tax in return for further financial aid. looks like russia holds the cards for the cypriots..



http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...ryW2BRZv9EM6yow&bvm=bv.43828540,d.d2k&cad=rja


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> According to Interfax, the regional banking association's vice president Alexander Khandruiev has suggested that Russia negotiate a deal with Cyprus to reduce, or even eliminate the tax in return for further financial aid. looks like russia holds the cards for the cypriots..


In Russian news now in the morning President Putin has stopped any deal between Gazprom and the Cyprus Government about the banks.

I am 100% sure that Russias only interest in this is to lay its hands on the gas. Perhaps good...perhaps not


----------



## jojo

Vegaanders said:


> In Russian news now in the morning President Putin has stopped any deal between Gazprom and the Cyprus Government about the banks.
> 
> I am 100% sure that Russias only interest in this is to lay its hands on the gas. Perhaps good...perhaps not


I thought that Russians rather liked using the Cypriot banks for money laundering

Jo xxx


----------



## davidogden

Vegaanders said:


> For me 1 thing is not very secure to trust. If the banks go and probably also the state default then I doubt there will be any money for the guarantee either. From where should this huge amount of money come?
> 
> Anders


I have just had it confirmed from astatement the president has made that if the banks fails there is no money to meet guarantees

At moment 25 of 56 parliamentary votes are pledged to vote against the EU Bailout proposal

So maybe a few more will join the frey.

This could be the formal start of a European financial war and the death of the Euro Its a bit ironic that Germany has lost two world wars and now rules the finances of Europe are they gojng to belucky the third time


----------



## Guest

davidogden said:


> I have just had it confirmed from astatement the president has made that if the banks fails there is no money to meet guarantees
> 
> At moment 25 of 56 parliamentary votes are pledged to vote against the EU Bailout proposal
> 
> So maybe a few more will join the frey.
> 
> This could be the formal start of a European financial war and the death of the Euro Its a bit ironic that Germany has lost two world wars and now rules the finances of Europe are they gojng to belucky the third time


I understand that Germans have demands. they have to pay at least 75% of the bailout


----------



## PeteandSylv

travelling-man said:


> I don't understand why you think that.
> 
> whatever gold reserves Cyprus & the banks etc had on the day it dumped the Euro, it'd still have the day after.
> 
> All they're doing is changing the money symbol on the accounts and the physical currency.
> 
> Admittedly, the new currency would have to be floated and it's value will be an unknown quantity until it was floated but it's not going to mimic the Zimbabwe dollar. It'll settle to a fair exchange rate.
> 
> The main thing is you lose the debt.


What gold is that? I think you'll find the days of each countries currency being backed by safely held bars of gold are long gone.

Most of the EU is financed by debt. The UK in particular has a colossal level of debt but is able to meet repayments and thus has staved off the scenarios shared by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Cyprus etc.

The major problem with the bankruptcy scenario for Cyprus is not the long term recovery which would probably happen but the immediate term when essential imports run out and there is not enough of it's worthless country to replenish the imports.

What no-one seems to have discussed is the scenario of the Cyprus government refusing to carry out the "haircut" and negotiating towards a gas related security for the loan. In other words calling the EU's bluff. Will all the EU countries want to risk a bankruptcy in it's midst with all the implications that holds for other countries? Would it want to be the Union of catastrophic failure? If Germany could be made to back off from it's unreasonable and immoral demands and Cyprus apologise for the idiot president Christofias's mis-handling of all previous negotiations and his insults to the EU, there could be a hope for a renegotiation.

This may be asking to much as all the characters involved are politicians where ego takes precedence over common sense.

Pete


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## davidogden

3 bills are to be debated to be passed Monday Afternoon, Corporation tax increase to 12.5% , an increase in the savings tax rate by 20% and this haircut levy up to 10% so anyone who continuesto hold deposistsin Cyprus banks will have there interest reduced.

I cannot see after what is happening now, how anyone would ever trust Cyprus to handle thier money again.

what has been done here has shaken the world in all the previous bank Chrises no president has interfered and stolen money from anyone who has a bank account in his country. 

Watch out America You have a budget deficiet they just might do the same there


----------



## PeteandSylv

davidogden said:


> 3 bills are to be debated to be passed Monday Afternoon, Corporation tax increase to 12.5% , an increase in the savings tax rate by 20% and this haircut levy up to 10% so anyone who continuesto hold deposistsin Cyprus banks will have there interest reduced.
> 
> I cannot see after what is happening now, how anyone would ever trust Cyprus to handle thier money again.
> 
> what has been done here has shaken the world in all the previous bank Chrises no president has interfered and stolen money from anyone who has a bank account in his country.
> 
> Watch out America You have a budget deficiet they just might do the same there


You write this as though the "haircut" is the choice and invention of the new President of Cyprus. It is not and was the invention of the EU and in particular Germany.

You also state that no President has interfered and stolen money from anyone who has a bank account in his country. You are wrong and the most significant example of this was the President of Germany just prior to the Second World War.

Pete


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## PeteandSylv

Robert Peston has interesting view worth reading:

Cyprus rescue breaks all the rules

Pete


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## Guest

could/would Russia take on cyprus debt in return for more control in gas/oil naval port...


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## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> What gold is that? I think you'll find the days of each countries currency being backed by safely held bars of gold are long gone.
> 
> Most of the EU is financed by debt. The UK in particular has a colossal level of debt but is able to meet repayments and thus has staved off the scenarios shared by Greece, Portugal, Spain, Cyprus etc.
> 
> The major problem with the bankruptcy scenario for Cyprus is not the long term recovery which would probably happen but the immediate term when essential imports run out and there is not enough of it's worthless country to replenish the imports.
> 
> What no-one seems to have discussed is the scenario of the Cyprus government refusing to carry out the "haircut" and negotiating towards a gas related security for the loan. In other words calling the EU's bluff. Will all the EU countries want to risk a bankruptcy in it's midst with all the implications that holds for other countries? Would it want to be the Union of catastrophic failure? If Germany could be made to back off from it's unreasonable and immoral demands and Cyprus apologise for the idiot president Christofias's mis-handling of all previous negotiations and his insults to the EU, there could be a hope for a renegotiation.
> 
> This may be asking to much as all the characters involved are politicians where ego takes precedence over common sense.
> 
> Pete


I think that Germany will not back off. The main reason is that there is a parliament election in September and the government has to deal with a population that don't want to spend more taxpayers money on southern Europe. If the opposition wins, participation from Germany in any more bailouts would have completely other demands. The opposition leader stated a month ago that he could not see any possibility to help Cyprus, a state controlled by "Russian oligarchs and Serbian mafia"

The German government have already lost many regional elections and for the big one in September the polls are bad.

Germany also have problems and as usual they turn inwards. Have been here in 7 years but can feel the difference. Strangers are not well seen anymore. Like anywhere else in the world where things go bad they blame the foreigners. We dont like it here anymore so we move to Cyprus. Perhaps we can help by creating some work.

Anders


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## Guest

trev1234 said:


> could/would Russia take on cyprus debt in return for more control in gas/oil naval port...


If Gazprom could get control over the ga I am sure they would bail out Cyprus but it seems in Russian news that my wife read that the president have said no.
moneywise its peanuts for them


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## Guest

travelling-man said:


> I wasn't aware Cyprus didn't have gold and that really surprises me but as I see it, this 'haircut' really is the worst possible option because I'll bet that people throughout Europe are going to get twitchy and I won't be at all surprised if we see large money withdrawals/transfers from all European banks (esp in the weaker countries) in the next few days/weeks and that can't be good for anyone. Nor can it be good for the Euro and if the domino effect kicks in then we're all in the smelly brown stuff.


Living in an almost bankrupt country as Portugal you must be worried, or your money is safe in UK?


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Robert Peston has interesting view worth reading:
> 
> Cyprus rescue breaks all the rules
> 
> Pete


seems Germany is tarring everyone with the same brush as in dodgy money laundering ...


----------



## PeteandSylv

It is also important to remember that the spectre of Russian money laundering in Cyprus has not been proven and is due to be investigated by the EU. This is the same EU that with it's German accent is insisting on robbing Cyprus's bank depositors partly on the basis of Russian money laundering. Guilty and sentenced without trial.

If this had been a true and moral crusade the money launderers should have been discovered and their deposits dealt with accordingly and the truth of the extent of this problem made public.

Why do I not hear about money laundering elsewhere? Am I to believe there is none from Russia, China, South America etc. occurring in other countries?

Anders made the very relevant comment about German elections feeding Merkel's obsession. Perhaps Germany should be reminded that it's riches stem from selling their products including a not insignificant number of Mercedes and BMWs to southern EU countries.

Pete


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## jojo

BBC News - EU leaders gamble in Cyprus bank bailout

Jo xxx


----------



## Strovolian

When I holidayed in Cyprus pre-1974 life was perfect.

After the Turkish invasion in 1974 the guarantor countries did nothing to restore Cyprus's independence. With the more fertile half of the island lost, the airport gone and thousands homeless the island picked itself up and rebuilt. Cypriots living away from home sent money to support their families and rebuild their country.


If I believed for a moment that money I spent in or sent to Cyprus now would stay there and not end up servicing debt then I would send it by the bucketful. 

Perhaps the solution is to let the banks go bankrupt, reintroduce the Cyprus pound and take our chances on building tourism up, selling produce and resources outside the Eurozone.

We might even consider renting out two military bases to a country or countries that actually paid rent for them.

If the big issue is Russian money laundering then just deal with their accounts. Of course the real issue is German elections coming up.

Yes, there is much wrong in the way Cyprus is run - it has that in common with every other country in the world. Using it as a political football rather than treating it as a European partner is a mistake.


----------



## dave22

Why is Germany now saying that it was not them who asked Cyprus to impose this Levey on Bank Accounts.
Never will i trust the Germans again


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## oronero

Could this be the end of money, not just the Euro but all money, Dollars, Pounds, Rubles ? 

The only reason that money exists is so that people can trade with one another. bartering works but is hated by governments as it is difficult to police and apply taxes to.

There is an issue with bartering though, as if you want to trade your freshly laid eggs for some meat and the only produce your neighbour has is oranges then 'Roast Oranges' does not solve your problem for Sunday's roast.

Seriously though money need not be the only commodity used for trading. Look at what India did to circumnavigate the embargo on Iranian Oil, they swapped the oil for credit towards goods that they produced, they were to pay with gold originally!

BBC News - India will pay oil bills owed to Iran, avoiding cut off

India,Iran reach oil payment deal without gold

Have you noticed how the price of gold has been rising over the last few years...gold is a real thing. I am not advocating that everybody goes out and buys into gold but there are other things that can be used.

Personally I am thinking of dealing in peanuts as a commodity, that way when the government tax me on my wealth they can feed it straight to the monkeys that work there.


----------



## Geraldine

dave22 said:


> Why is Germany now saying that it was not them who asked Cyprus to impose this Levey on Bank Accounts.
> Never will i trust the Germans again


Neither will I, they bombed our chip shop....:behindsofa:

Sorry, it is a serious debate which I have read with interest.

Merkle has always had a bee in her bonnet about the Russians banking here, she is the one pushing for this to teach them a lesson.


----------



## oronero

Geraldine said:


> Merkle has always had a bee in her bonnet about the Russians banking here, she is the one pushing for this to teach them a lesson.


It is a shame that a great number of people will suffer for the alleged actions of a few Russians!


----------



## dave22

Sorry about your [email protected] Shop lol


----------



## Guest

the question is will Cyprus roll over and be stuffed by the EU and Germany......like someone has said until proven guilty there should be no punishment but Merkel is punishing the innocents....very dangerous indeed and illegal and against your statutory human rights..will Germany win this war..


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## oronero

The Financial Times was 'red-flagging' this issue for the Russians on Wednesday last week.

Russia’s Cyprus problem | beyondbrics


----------



## Guest

Geraldine said:


> Neither will I, they bombed our chip shop....:behindsofa:
> 
> Sorry, it is a serious debate which I have read with interest.
> 
> Merkle has always had a bee in her bonnet about the Russians banking here, she is the one pushing for this to teach them a lesson.


She is brought up in East Germany during the time when Russia was the God. she even speak fluent Russian.


----------



## Guest

dave22 said:


> Why is Germany now saying that it was not them who asked Cyprus to impose this Levey on Bank Accounts.
> Never will i trust the Germans again


It seems that we have to steal a couple of non-german numberplates before we arrive the 10 April


----------



## Guest

it seems not all were mugged.........The only other people being spared are Greeks who hold accounts in Cyprus, as any move against them could lead to a run on the banks in Athens.

The levy has to be agreed by the Cypriot parliament today, and should pass, given the government’s reluctant support for it. European officials insist this will be a one-off. The last thing they want is queues at banks elsewhere in southern Europe. But as with every step taken during the eurozone crisis, it is a gamble whose consequences can never quite be predicted.


----------



## Veronica

Actually a financial guy made a point on Sky news just now.
in the eurozone any bank deposits below 100K are protected so if the government take money out of accounts that have less than 100k in them it is illegal.
Anything over 100K is not however protected so maybe they will have to put up the amount they take from the over 100k accounts and leave the little people alone


----------



## Guest

UK equities opened down..seemed to be a buying opportunity not to be missed...silver linings and things come to mind..gold had a little surge, silver could be the next big thing....who is thinking about transferring their monies to a trnc bank just curious if it crossed anyones mind....


----------



## PeteandSylv

Now that the EU have backtracked slightly, the structure of the theft is up to the Cyprus government as long as they raise €5.8bn.

This gives the opportunity to ignore smaller investors and then apply a more reasonable percentage at various levels.

I wonder if balances in joint accounts will be considered to be 2 balances of 50% thus removing even more people from the theft if they do ignore small investors.

We will find out tomorrow so further conjecture seems pointless.

Instead I will compile a list of cars of German manufacture or with German content and other German goods to ensure I don't ever buy them.

Pete


----------



## oronero

I wish that everybody was able to withdraw all of their money from worldwide banks, Politicians and Bankers ought to be taught a lesson.

It is their 'screw-ups' that have caused this, they should suffer, not the people.

People are made bankrupt all around the world, what makes 'Governments' and the 'Banking Sector' so special that they should be given special dispensation from operating within their financial means?


----------



## theresoon

trev1234 said:


> it seems not all were mugged.........The only other people being spared are Greeks who hold accounts in Cyprus, as any move against them could lead to a run on the banks in Athens.
> 
> The levy has to be agreed by the Cypriot parliament today, and should pass, given the government’s reluctant support for it. European officials insist this will be a one-off. The last thing they want is queues at banks elsewhere in southern Europe. But as with every step taken during the eurozone crisis, it is a gamble whose consequences can never quite be predicted.


Where did you read that Greek nationals are excluded? I have not seen it anywhere.


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> it seems not all were mugged.........The only other people being spared are Greeks who hold accounts in Cyprus, as any move against them could lead to a run on the banks in Athens.
> 
> The levy has to be agreed by the Cypriot parliament today, and should pass, given the government’s reluctant support for it. European officials insist this will be a one-off. The last thing they want is queues at banks elsewhere in southern Europe. But as with every step taken during the eurozone crisis, it is a gamble whose consequences can never quite be predicted.


The reason for this is probably that all branches of Cyprus banks will be transferred to Greece owners. This is a part of the bailout deal.


----------



## Guest

It seems that the vote is postponed until tomorrow because Germany has said they can change the terms. It seems that even Angela Merkel can be reasoned with when she see the reaction

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> The reason for this is probably that all branches of Cyprus banks will be transferred to Greece owners. This is a part of the bailout deal.


That really puts the cap on it.
It is partly because of the Cyprus banks buying greek bonds to help greece in the past that we are in this mess. Why would Cyprus then give Greece the cypriot banks?
It makes no sense at all.

Where is t his 'information' coming from?


----------



## Strovolian

Vegaanders said:


> The reason for this is probably that all branches of Cyprus banks will be transferred to Greece owners. This is a part of the bailout deal.


I am in Cyprus watching the non-stop television discussions. There has been no mention of Cyprus banks being given to any one.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> That really puts the cap on it.
> It is partly because of the Cyprus banks buying greek bonds to help greece in the past that we are in this mess. Why would Cyprus then give Greece the cypriot banks?
> It makes no sense at all.
> 
> Where is t his 'information' coming from?


German news. And perhaps not so bad, the debt also go with the bank, which will make it easier for the Cypriot part


----------



## Guest

Strovolian said:


> I am in Cyprus watching the non-stop television discussions. There has been no mention of Cyprus banks being given to any one.


It was not the banks, it was the Greece operations part that should be given away. Cyprus should be pleased to get rid of the bad Greece parts


----------



## Guest

From German Television, government pressrelease

"In order to achieve debt sustainability, a contribution from Cyprus is necessary, a contribution from the banking sector, from depositors and owners," Steffen Seibert, a spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel said.
"How the country arrives at this contribution, how it divides it up, was and is up to the Cypriot government," he added. "As I believe the finance minister said last night on television, Germany could have imagined a different solution, a different staggering. But it was not our decision."


----------



## Ash Jez

Veronica said:


> It is partly because of the Cyprus banks buying greek bonds to help greece in the past that we are in this mess.
> 
> Where is t his 'information' coming from?


Charity should start at home I think. It seems to me that these days all that is really happening is money is being handed out to those in need causing them to get deeper into debt and create more problems in the future. It's like borrowing on one credit card to pay for another and eventually, if you can't sort the root problems, your destined to fail big time.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> That really puts the cap on it.
> It is partly because of the Cyprus banks buying greek bonds to help greece in the past that we are in this mess. Why would Cyprus then give Greece the cypriot banks?
> It makes no sense at all.
> 
> Where is t his 'information' coming from?


Now also in Cyprus mail

Cypriot banks to transfer Greek units to Greek owners - Cyprus Mail


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> The reason for this is probably that all branches of Cyprus banks will be transferred to Greece owners. This is a part of the bailout deal.


Where did you get that information from and what exactly does it mean? 

From their websites:

Laiki/Popular Bank: _Laiki Bank is headquartered in Cyprus and operates under the control and supervision of the Central Bank of Cyprus._

Bank of Cyprus: _It is noted that in 1930, the Bank of Cyprus Public Company Ltd was registered as a public limited company under the Cyprus Company Law 18/1922 with registration number 165. The Bank is licensed by the Central Bank of Cyprus and is operating under its regulation and supervision._

Banks in individual countries are registered and regulated within that country. That is why deposits with Bank of Cyprus in the UK are exempt from the theft.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Where did you get that information from and what exactly does it mean?
> 
> From their websites:
> 
> Laiki/Popular Bank: _Laiki Bank is headquartered in Cyprus and operates under the control and supervision of the Central Bank of Cyprus._
> 
> Bank of Cyprus: _It is noted that in 1930, the Bank of Cyprus Public Company Ltd was registered as a public limited company under the Cyprus Company Law 18/1922 with registration number 165. The Bank is licensed by the Central Bank of Cyprus and is operating under its regulation and supervision._
> 
> Banks in individual countries are registered and regulated within that country. That is why deposits with Bank of Cyprus in the UK are exempt from the theft.
> 
> Pete


Cypriot banks to transfer Greek units to Greek owners - Cyprus Mail


----------



## PeteandSylv

OK. I've read the Cyprus Mail article and I think you have got it wrong Anders. It is branches of the Cyprus banks that are in Greece that will be transferred.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> OK. I've read the Cyprus Mail article and I think you have got it wrong Anders. It is branches of the Cyprus banks that are in Greece that will be transferred.
> 
> Pete


Yes I also said that in the first post. And I think it is good because any debts they have will follow them

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Yes I also said that in the first post. And I think it is good because any debts they have will follow them
> 
> Anders


Apologies, but I couldn't see where you said that, and I still can't.

I also can't see why you think any debt will transfer with them. Why on earth would any other bank want to take on their debts? The article says the transfer will not affect the Greek debt to GDP ratio so you can bet they'll take over the deposits leaving any debt behind.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Apologies, but I couldn't see where you said that, and I still can't.
> 
> I also can't see why you think any debt will transfer with them. Why on earth would any other bank want to take on their debts? The article says the transfer will not affect the Greek debt to GDP ratio so you can bet they'll take over the deposits leaving any debt behind.
> 
> Pete


Ok perhaps I misunderstood. To good to be true. 

Anyway I look at Frau Merkel now in TV and she say that some changes will be made in the bail out plan. I suspect she has talked to Putin that is a good friend of here and according to German TV he is furious about the deal

Anders


----------



## NoEuro

jojo said:


> ...From what I can see the only way its going to work is for it to do what it seems it was set out to do and thats to copy the USA model - and become the USE - No, thats not something I want to see, but its the only way I can see for it to sort itself.


Very interesting thread! And my first post in here...

And the USE is most likely the German goal, or not? I may be paranoid, but I have been thinking along these lines for a few years now...

Some posts back, DaveOgden mentioned 14-18 and 39-45. It is perhaps not a bad hint: The last 100 years, Germany has tried to conquer Europe by wars, and lost. Now it tries with politics, and will win. I quote Carl von Clausewitz (I am not allowed to give you a link since I don't have enough posts...) from his famous book "On War" (1830): "War is simply politics with other means".

As I see it, Germany is now on steady track to take full control of the EU, with politic/economic means this time. If Germany makes Cyprus give in to this theft, then this option will be considered all over in the EU countries. Rest assured. Portugal, Spain, and then Italia, are probably already discussing this option in closed chambers right now.

I am very happy that Norway is on the outside of this dangerous mess. The last days, there have been close following of this turning point in the financials of the EU here in Norway: We expect many EU citizens/companies to bring their money into Norw. banks now, as one of the few safe havens for people's savings. Unbelievable. But true.

What irony: The (most likely) smallest economy of the EU is about to destabilise banking in the whole of the EU... Bank deposits and lifetime savings in most (the weakest, at least) EU countries are now at real risk, as is being documented in Cyprus... A small iceberg and and a big passenger ship springs to my mind...


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Ok perhaps I misunderstood. To good to be true.
> 
> Anyway I look at Frau Merkel now in TV and she say that some changes will be made in the bail out plan. I suspect she has talked to Putin that is a good friend of here and according to German TV he is furious about the deal
> 
> Anders


And so he should be. Where do you think he banks the proceeds from those special little deals!!!!



Pete


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Very interesting thread! And my first post in here...
> 
> And the USE is most likely the German goal, or not? I may be paranoid, but I have been thinking along these lines for a few years now...
> 
> Some posts back, DaveOgden mentioned 14-18 and 39-45. It is perhaps not a bad hint: The last 100 years, Germany has tried to conquer Europe by wars, and lost. Now it tries with politics, and will win. I quote Carl von Clausewitz (I am not allowed to give you a link since I don't have enough posts...) from his famous book "On War" (1830): "War is simply politics with other means".
> 
> As I see it, Germany is now on steady track to take full control of the EU, with politic/economic means this time. If Germany makes Cyprus give in to this theft, then this option will be considered all over in the EU countries. Rest assured. Portugal, Spain, and then Italia, are probably already discussing this option in closed chambers right now.
> 
> I am very happy that Norway is on the outside of this dangerous mess. The last days, there have been close following of this turning point in the financials of the EU here in Norway: We expect many EU citizens/companies to bring their money into Norw. bank now, as one of the few safe havens.
> 
> What irony: The (most likely) smallest economy of the EU is about to destabilise banking in the whole of the EU... Bank deposits and lifetime savings in most (the weakest, at least) EU countries are now at real risk, as is being documented in Cyprus... A small iceberg and and a big passenger ship springs to my mind...


Conspiracy theories has never interested me and I hoped that all old grudge against Germany was gone.
Living in Germany I can understand the German position. German taxpayers has paid the biggest part of all the bailouts and they are tired of it. With the election coming up they play ruff now. And if the opposition would win in September there would not be one more bailout euro from Germany


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Conspiracy theories has never interested me and I hoped that all old grudge against Germany was gone.


It is not my intention to introduce any conspiracy theory, but: "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". Hstory over several hundred years should have taught us to keep an eye on Germany. Keep your eyes and minds open.

I enjoy your posts, Vegaanders. But I see grave implications for the Euro money system if this "legal" theft becomes reality, due to political and financial pressure from Germany. On the news here right now, Medvedjev in Russia is warning Germany about "grave implicatons" if this state robbery is put into place.

Unquestionably, if this goes through, then it will be a legal option for any EU country in their work/efforts for fixing economies that are today in a big, big mess. Goes for USA as well.


----------



## oronero

Vegaanders said:


> German taxpayers has paid the biggest part of all the bailouts and they are tired of it. With the election coming up they play ruff now. And if the opposition would win in September there would not be one more bailout euro from Germany


Perhaps with nobody in a position to bail-out others, it would be a good thing. Then the Banking sector and Governments would have to start operating within their fiscal means!

I mean everybody else has to and if they are not declare themselves bankrupt...what makes these two special?


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> It is not my intention to introduce any conspiracy theory, but: "Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". Hstory over several hundred years should have taught us to keep an eye on Germany. Keep your eyes and minds open.
> 
> I enjoy your posts, Vegaanders. But I see grave implications for the Euro money system if this "legal" theft becomes reality, due to political and financial pressure from Germany. On the news here right now, Medvedjev in Russia is warning Germany about "grave implicatons" if this state robbery is put into place.
> 
> Unquestionably, if this goes through, then it will be a legal option for any EU country in their work/efforts for fixing economies that are today in a big, big mess. Goes for USA as well.


I have a hard time with this talk about history will repeat it self, be aware of Germany. 
Germany has proved to be a very good Europe member for very long time, holding the rest of the continent afloat during the crises. Some say, they should, because what they caused during WW2. No one should be blamed and responsible for what our grandparents did in the past.

Perhaps Medvediev has money there also....


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I have a hard time with this talk about history will repeat it self, be aware of Germany.


And many more have had, and have, a hard time with Germany, right now.



Vegaanders said:


> Germany has proved to be a very good Europe member for very long time, holding the rest of the continent afloat during the crises.


As far as I am educated, they have created most crisis in Europe. For several hundred years.



Vegaanders said:


> No one should be blamed and responsible for what our grandparents did in the past.


Indeed. But it goes beyond grandparents. It is called history.

:focus:


----------



## PeteandSylv

travelling-man said:


> I agree. Any good accountant will tell you that when you run out of money it's better to declare bankruptcy, have your debts set aside & start again than it is to try to soldier on & go further & further into debt & I don't see why a country is any different to an individual in that respect.
> 
> As it is, if they soldier on, take on yet more debt & allow this banking piracy, it could well bring down not only other countries as well but also the Euro & possibly also cause even more damage to the world economy.


The difference is that countries include individuals and if the country's banks collapse the individual's money vanishes permanently and immediately meaning that they cannot buy food. Some would see this as a problem.

If you are a small country like Cyprus dependent on importing oil for generating electricity, where will you get your oil from with a worthless currency to pay for it? No oil means no electricity which means no communications, no flights out and so on. Some might see this as a problem too.

So much for your accountant who like politicians won't take any responsibility for their actions but are always so wise when others are made to suffer.

Pete


----------



## Veronica

NoEuro said:


> And many more have had, and have, a hard time with Germany, right now.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I am educated, they have created most crisis in Europe. For several hundred years.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. But it goes beyond grandfathers. It is called history.
> 
> :focus:


It was you who took the thread of topic and started the lets blame Germany thing.
As Anders said Germany have contributed enormous amounts towards bailouts of the weaker Eu countries but there comes a point when everyone says enough is enough.
Any futher talk of old conflicts, historical grudges etc and I will close this thread.
Lets keep to topic from now on.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> And many more have had, and have, a hard time with Germany, right now.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I am educated, they have created most crisis in Europe. For several hundred years.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. But it goes beyond grandfathers. It is called history.
> 
> :focus:


It seems to me that you are one of them that can only look back, not in the future.


----------



## NoEuro

OK, Veronica. Point taken. If I took the thread off-topic by blaming Germany, I apologise. I am new here. Will not blame Germany any more.


----------



## Veronica

For heavens sake get real man. Tourism will not support Cyprus is there is no money.
How will the tourists get here when no flights can come in because there is no fuel?
How will the hotels manage to run without any money?
How will the taxis and buses run without fuel?
How will the ordinary man feed his family without any money?
Tourism has not supported Cyprus for some considerable time anyway as is shown by the number of tourist related businesses that have closed down.
If you can't talk sense please stop talking at all.


----------



## NoEuro

I do not really understand the concept of a common currency, so maybe someone can shed some light...?

Let's see: We have a gathering of wildly different countries: Germany, with its exceptional technological skills (yes, I drive a BMW: pure luxury), sharing a common currency with much less developed countries, with completely different price levels. So 1 Euro is worth much, much more in let's say Spain/Portugal than in Germany/France. Is this sustainable?

Let alone the subject that is on-topic here  : Cyprus. Cyprus must be an easy match for the richer/more developed countries in the EU. Is the balance fair? To me, it seems not. I do not understand how this model, with unbalanced countries, but the same currency, will be able to work and cooperate as one unit, when the differencies are so big?

But the real issue of this thread is of course the incredible new situation: That a country/government is factually confiscating money that have been taxed and is private property!

I am looking forward to an indepth TV program in about 2hrs. time about Cyprus and this situation: Will hopefully get more insight.


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> I'll preserve that one for posterity and as an example of your seeming inability to read & lack of good manners.
> 
> My previous post addresses every single one of the questions you ask so I'd suggest you go back & review it.
> 
> In reply to your statement (as opposed to your questions), I'd rather suspect that part of the reason that tourism is slowing there is the direct result of the failing economy bought on by the Euro problems but even if I'm wrong then the answer to businesses closing is usually because something in the business or the business is wrong.
> 
> As I posted previously: Dump the EU & the Euro, clear the debt & start again....... there really is life after the EU & I'll bet that time will prove I'm right.
> 
> Or am I also no longer allowed to express a polite opinion if it disagrees with yours?


Your opinion disagrees with every sensible person here. Stick to the Portugal forum and stop trying to tell us in Cyprus how the economy of our country should be run. The last any of us wants is to see this country bankrupt as it would be the very worst possible scenario. So yes, please keep your opinion to yourself.
Thank you.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> I do not really understand the concept of a common currency, so maybe someone can shed some light...?
> 
> Let's see: We have a gathering of wildly different countries: Germany, with its exceptional technological skills (yes, I drive a BMW: pure luxury), sharing a common currency with much less developed countries, with completely different price levels. So 1 Euro is worth much, much more in let's say Spain/Portugal than in Germany/France. Is this sustainable?
> 
> Let alone the subject that is on-topic here  : Cyprus. Cyprus must be an easy match for the richer/more developed countries in the EU. Is the balance fair? To me, it seems not. I do not understand how this model, with unbalanced countries, but the same currency, will be able to work and cooperate as one unit, when the differencies are so big?
> 
> But the real issue of this thread is of course the incredible new situation: That a country/government is factually confiscating money that have been taxed and is private property!
> 
> I am looking forward to an indepth TV program in about 2hrs. time about Cyprus and this situation: Will hopefully get more insight.


As I have written many times, please not only criticize and complain, give a solution. And a solution that will avoid the bankruptcy and not one that will be effective in ten years. What should Cyprus do to avoid this?


----------



## oronero

Veronica said:


> Your opinion disagrees with every sensible person here. Stick to the Portugal forum and stop trying to tell us in Cyprus how the economy of our country should be run. The last any of us wants is to see this country bankrupt as it would be the very worst possible scenario. So yes, please keep your opinion to yourself.
> Thank you.


With all respect, why shouldn't people from around the World have an interest and opinion about what is happening to Cyprus and it's population at the moment?

Perhaps if the Government had not gone seeking financial help from outside, namely Europe and dealt with it internally then the opinion of others might be less relevant. 

However seeing as they did not and the loan terms have been dictated by the European Central Bank ECB, I should think all those that live within the EU have an interest and a valid opinion.


----------



## Veronica

oronero said:


> With all respect, why shouldn't people from around the World have an interest and opinion about what is happening to Cyprus and it's population at the moment?
> 
> Perhaps if the Government had not gone seeking financial help from outside, namely Europe and dealt with it internally then the opinion of others might be less relevant.
> 
> However seeing as they did not and the loan terms have been dictated by the European Central Bank ECB, I should think all those that live within the EU have an interest and a valid opinion.


When someone constantly tells us that we should declare bankrupcy with all of the problems this will cause no matter what those who actually live here think then we have the right to fight our corner. Of course other countries will show an interest but to be honest being told by people who don't live here how thiscountry shouldbe run galls. I for one don't object to a bit of my money being used to if it will help the country to sort itself out but I aboslutely do not want the country to declare bankrupcy as it will be far more painful than the current scenario.


----------



## Veronica

A big part of the problem is that previous governments have been so corrupt that they really give a dam about the state of the country as long as they were lining their own pockets. The previous president is complicit in blowing up the main power station by refusing help to safely store unstable confiscated munitions and should IMO be in prison but instead he has salted millions away. When asked how his daughter came to have 3 million euros in her account he said it was money from her wedding. 
Then the banks bought loads of bonds in greek banks to shore them up with the result that when Greece went down so did our banks. 
None of the problems of this country will be solved overnight and unfortunately the gas is a few years away from starting to flow so won't be of any help in the short term.
As I have said, if I have to give a small amount of my money (which I have earned here and paid tax on already) then so be it. I will grit my teeth and accept it. 
We don't know yet what is going to happen as no real decisions have been made yet so perhaps we should all just ait and see, and then wait and see what the result of whatever happens is in the long run.
The one thing we absolutely DO NOT WANT is bankruptcy


----------



## Guest

indirectly the british taxpayer is footing the bill for uk servicemens reimbursement of monies stolen by cypriot govt...


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## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Veronika, I am very new to this forum (today), but I must object to your treatment of travelling-man. I also disagree with your critisism of my post(s), few as they are. But disagreement should be the basis for discussion, not harassment.
> 
> Some posts towards travelling-man:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you have decided that it (another opinion) is "not practical"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not the behaviour of a true moderator. I consider myself a sensible person.
> 
> Veronika: I hold an engineering degree in computer science, I have been a moderator on several (big/worldwide) forums for several years. I have even run my own forums. Your behaviour towards travelling-man is unacceptable. Were you not a moderator, you would have been banned/warned. Please follow the forum rules.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe a viewpoint from a bit away can be refreshing? When one sits in the sh.t, it can be more difficult to see a way out?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question. I am really confused on the matter, as most people are. Will watch TV (an indepth Norw. investigaton) later, and see what comes forward. But I tend to hold the same position as travelling-man: Do not bow for the EU. Be brave, and say no to foreign dictates.
> 
> PS.
> I have kept a copy of this on my computer. I hope one can express one's opinions in this forum, and of course within the forum rules. Let me know if I have broken some of them.
> DS.


I have found the solution. We have a Norwegian here. Cant we use your oil fund. There must be enough with money. I am sure it is a safe investment


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## titania

Would someone explain the following to me:

Since Cyprus is sitting on a large gas or oil reserve which is likely to be exploited within the next 2-5 years, how come the EU is not willing to lend it some money not only to bail it out, but to help the country with investment to exploit that gas/oil even sooner?

How come the EU is "scared" Cyprus won't pay it back? Surely, if you have a sure asset, one could borrow against it. Normally, this works for individuals as well as countries. Why not here? Is there something which is not being said about this gas/oil reserve?

How come the Russians are not helping more in return for a small naval base, which would give them a better access to selling arms in the Middle East, like Syria and Iran? Again, what is not being said?

Since to me the above two solutions - EU money for gas or Russian roubles for a strategic port - are not acted on, the only reason I see is that there's some huge thing going on behind the scenes, like testing what happens with Cyprus. Should the result be tolerable (in politicians terms that is), proceed to blackmail other countries with either another theft of their own depositors or kicking them out of the Euro zone by blaming them - blaming the victim if you will...

Pursuing the idea further, that would mean a hidden agreement between the stronger EU countries and Russia, all statements being for decorum, and a financial situation which is so huge that I can't even imagine what it is.

And since all of the world's economies are now interlocked, and that no country, be it small or big would benefit from the collapse of the euro, it then pushes the reasoning to include the big economies in such suspicious deals...

Another lurking thought that keeps my mind busy is that wars have always started in order to fulfill a need - it used to be food, but it may now be energy, viz. Libya for example, which was an attempt by Europe/France to secure oil, or Mali, for uranium, Syria at some point possibly since it has bituminous sands.

Am I paranoid? Am I a conspirationist?

Enlighten me please!


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I have found the solution. We have a Norwegian here. Cant we use your oil fund. There must be enough with money. I am sure it is a safe investment


Ha, ha, Anders!

We already have! We have funneled billions and billions into EU, and we keep on. But it is not popular up here, so this autumn, we will vote in a new government, methinks.

We also send out 500.000.000 NOK (Yep, five hundred millions) EVERY WEEK for 3rd world help. Have done it the last 26 years. Wild...

About safe investment in the EU: Not quite sure...

But of course; money rolls in; you can actually watch it live here, but it goes up and down (figures in NOK):

Norwegian Pension Fund. It fluctuates with some bllions NOK each day, but the general direction is nicely up. But I am digressing: Must watch the TV program about Cyprus now.


----------



## Veronica

I have also wondered why the gas which is a just a few years off can't be used as surety for a bailout. This has never made sense to me.

As for Russia having a port to sell weaposn etc from to the middle east that will never happen as Cyprus alway stays neutral in conflicts in the mddile east and to allow Russia to use the island to sell weapons would not be acceptable.

My husband and I were discussing it earlier and I am of the opinion that Cyprus is being used a test case. We are only tiny so if all goes wrong then it will cause only a small ripple in the ocean but if it turns out to be a successful move then it might well be repeated elsewhere.


----------



## titania

Veronica said:


> For heavens sake get real man. Tourism will not support Cyprus is there is no money.
> How will the tourists get here when no flights can come in because there is no fuel?
> How will the hotels manage to run without any money?
> How will the taxis and buses run without fuel?
> How will the ordinary man feed his family without any money?
> Tourism has not supported Cyprus for some considerable time anyway as is shown by the number of tourist related businesses that have closed down.
> If you can't talk sense please stop talking at all.


The Maldives, Seychelles, Mauritius and a few other islands, not sitting on oil reserves, with only fish to export if that, have managed pretty well to feed their people, have boats and planes, run hotels, extract soft water from sea water, produce electricity somehow and are heavens for tourists. It's not ideal, there's a great deal of poverty, but Maldives for example, has managed to graduate from least-developing country to developing country. No small feat indeed.

I don't advocate any bankruptcy, nor do I advocate the theft of people's savings, but humans are resilient and I'm pretty sure Cyprus people are too, whatever fate will throw at them.


----------



## oronero

A few years ago the Icelandic Banking system went into 'melt-down', investors from around the world lost a lot of money...did their Government step in to rescue them...NO !

Has Iceland vanished and the people died...NO !

Perhaps they did something right and let the 'rogue Banks' collapse...now there's a thought!


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## NoEuro

Veronica said:


> I have also wondered why the gas which is a just a few years off can't be used as surety for a bailout. This has never made sense to me.


The gas reserves can be used as a base for credits, yes. Without knowing the exact reserves of Cyprus, I believe they are peanuts compared to the Norw./Russian reserves in the Arctic (I live there). Small volumes combined with high exploration/production costs per unit gas, may make it marginal. And gas prices have gone down, and will continue to, without going into geological details.

Anyway, to put a gas field into safe production takes about a decade. So this is not a quick fix.

About ripple effects: It was just on TV, as I suspected, that Europe now fears a bank run in Spain and Italy. Not to mention Portugal.

So: If Cyprus decides to steal people's money, we shall soon see the effet on these countries: Bank run. This may be the beginning of the end. For Euro first. And then...?



Veronica said:


> My husband and I were discussing it earlier and I am of the opinion that Cyprus is being used a test case. We are only tiny so if all goes wrong then it will cause only a small ripple in the ocean but if it turns out to be a successful move then it might well be repeated elsewhere.


Precisely: This is a test: Can governments steal the people's money? I am sooo glad I am not insde the EU...

EDIT: Cyprus has NO technology in the gas field: They have to buy all competence and equipment from Norway/Russia. Most likely Norway. But they need hard cash: Not Cyprus $


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> The gas reserves can be used as a base for credits, yes. Without knowing the exact reserves of Cyprus, I believe they are peanuts compared to the Norw./Russian reserves in the Arctic (I live there). Small volumes combined with high exploration/production costs per unit gas, may make it marginal. And gas prices have gone down, and will continue to, without going into geological details.
> 
> Anyway, to put a gas field into safe production takes about a decade. So this is not a quick fix.
> 
> About ripple effects: It was just on TV, as I suspected, that Europe now fears a bank run in Spain and Italy. Not to mention Portugal.
> 
> So: If Cyprus decides to steal people's money, we shall soon see the effet on these countries: Bank run. This may be the beginning of the end. For Euro first. And then...?
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely: This is a test: Can governments steal the people's money? I am sooo glad I am not insde the EU...
> 
> EDIT: Cyprus has NO technology in the gas field: They have to buy all competence and equipment from Norway/Russia. Most likely Norway. But they need hard cash: Not Cyprus $


I doubt that Norway will have a chance. It will be Gazprom

But I dont think that the reserves is peanuts, they are estimated to 40% of the total yearly need in EU. If this is true it is ofc a huge relief if it is handled correct, and not spoilt by the government


----------



## titania

NoEuro said:


> ... snip... Cyprus has NO technology in the gas field: They have to buy all competence and equipment from Norway/Russia. Most likely Norway. But they need hard cash: Not Cyprus $


Well then, Norway bail out Cyprus, Norway gets to market Cyprus gas in a non-corrupted way, and Norwegians get the money back in 20 years and meantime go for free on Cyprus beaches in winter???

Gas is energy, it may be going down now, but in 20 years who knows, especially since there's so much hoo-haa against fracking in Europe and against nuclear energy in the world. It maybe sea gas replaces oil in part in the future. Let's face it, no country will want to diminish its energy consumption, the needs are ever expanding and will need to be filled. However costly may the extraction of Cyprus gas be now, it could turn out worth the investment in a few years.

According to Wikipedia (Aphrodite gas field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), the gas reserves in that field are substantial and amount to


> ... block 12 is believed to hold 3 to 9 trillion cubic feet (85×109 to 250×109 m3) of natural gas...


. Another quote in the same source is:


> ...According to Noble Energy, a total gross unrisked deep oil potential is 3.7 billion barrels (590×106 m3). The field has a gross mean average of 7 trillion cubic feet (200 billion cubic metres) of natural gas with an estimated gross resource range of 5–8 trillion cubic feet (140×109–230×109 m3)...


How do these quantities compare with, say, Norway? If these are as huge as I am led to believe, it's even more extraordinary that the EU is blackmailing this country, and doubting its ability to repay a loan.

It can only make sense if, as others say, it's a test for lessons in modern populatics to be applied to other countries... What a horrible world if true!


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I doubt that Norway will have a chance. It will be Gazprom


No problem. It is not much (peanuts), in our terms. We have more than our hands full with our own future reserves, both discovered and yet not discovered, but certainly there.



Vegaanders said:


> But I dont think that the reserves is peanuts, they are estimated to 40% of the total yearly need in EU. If this is true it is ofc a huge relief if it is handled correct, and not spoilt by the government


40% of the EU is about 150 mill. well-fed people(?). Peanuts. The world has 7 bill. that need gas/power...

Markets work in a different way. Some elements are: Delivery capacity, longterm commitment, technology, safety, environment knowledge, stability, finance muscles, trust, non-corruption environment, etc. etc.

Due to the physical limitations of the sea around Cyprus, the reserves are peanuts. And if it comes into reality, what will the Turkish do...?

But I have to keep on topic; Veronika is chasing me... It is really a ground-breaking issue we are dealing with: Can a state really just confiscate private property? Actually, on TV this evening, Medvedjev of Russia said exactly that:; "This was what we did in the Communist age of Russia". Would you believe? Incredible statement!


----------



## Guest

titania said:


> Well then, Norway bail out Cyprus, Norway gets to market Cyprus gas in a non-corrupted way, and Norwegians get the money back in 20 years and meantime go for free on Cyprus beaches in winter???
> 
> Gas is energy, it may be going down now, but in 20 years who knows, especially since there's so much hoo-haa against fracking in Europe and against nuclear energy in the world. It maybe sea gas replaces oil in part in the future. Let's face it, no country will want to diminish its energy consumption, the needs are ever expanding and will need to be filled. However costly may the extraction of Cyprus gas be now, it could turn out worth the investment in a few years.
> 
> According to Wikipedia (Aphrodite gas field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), the gas reserves in that field are substantial and amount to. Another quote in the same source is:
> 
> How do these quantities compare with, say, Norway? If these are as huge as I am led to believe, it's even more extraordinary that the EU is blackmailing this country, and doubting its ability to repay a loan.
> 
> It can only make sense if, as others say, it's a test for lessons in modern populatics to be applied to other countries... What a horrible world if true!


I think the problem is that it is based on very few drillings and no one know. For some reason the test drillings are delayed. Most because the old government F....d it up. But ofc you are right, if the estimates are true Cyprus have a bright future


----------



## Guest

This article is really interesting.

Cyprus may have as much as 40 tcf of natural gas - Cyprus Mail

Anders


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## titania

> 40% of the EU is about 150 mill. well-fed people(?). Peanuts. The world has 7 bill. that need gas/power...


Peanuts for the world, but not peanuts for Europe!

At any rate, back to topic, no I don't think it's right to confiscate this money from people's pockets. I do hope they find another solution.

Meantime, I'd continue like I always have done, never keep all eggs in one henhouse, and making sure the several henhouses are in different gardens.

For those would be farmers that can afford it, making sure hens are fed with a variety of Nordic salmon, Swiss Cheese fondue, Japanese raw fish, American burgers perhaps... As for the more exotic hen feeds, Brazilian nuts, Indian curries, Malaysian Bami-Goreng, Russian bortsch or Chinese noodles. Maybe decorate the stone and mortar henhouses with shiny golden fences or silvery water containers....


----------



## NoEuro

To be quite frank, I think that the gas reserves of Cyprus is of little or no interest to Norway: A drop in the sea, so to speak, compared to what we are working on right now. But it would be a great pleasure if Cyprus discovered sustainable resources. The problems for Cyprus are then:

1. Time to production: A decade.
2. Competence: None.
3. Production knowledge: None.
4. Logistics from Cyprus: Very limited.
5. Using the money/income for the people. Doubtful.
6. Save/build for the future of the people. Doubtful.

I could go on.

Since we have a Swede here on the forum, I can tell you a story from the Swedish gas "adventure": They drilled a few holes in the ground in Værmland (a county in Sweden), and behold: They found gas! But: It was less gas than they could produce by putting a hose into every Swedish cow's a.s and collect the daily gas...

Sorry Anders; just having fun...


----------



## titania

Vegaanders said:


> This article is really interesting.
> 
> Cyprus may have as much as 40 tcf of natural gas - Cyprus Mail
> 
> Anders


From your article:

"...Commerce Minister Giorgos Lakkotrypis said that with gas converted into energy and a subsea cable connecting Cyprus and Greece, the island could become an energy hub serving Europe..."

This would be brilliant!!!


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## NoEuro

titania said:


> ...making sure the several henhouses are in different gardens.


Has always been my policy, yes...


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## Guest

NoEuro said:


> To be quite frank, I think that the gas reserves of Cyprus is of little or no interest to Norway: A drop in the sea, so to speak, compared to what we are working on right now. But it would be a great pleasure if Cyprus discovered sustainable resources. The problems for Cyprus are then:
> 
> 1. Time to production: A decade.
> 2. Competence: None.
> 3. Production knowledge: None.
> 4. Logistics from Cyprus: Very limited.
> 5. Using the money/income for the people. Doubtful.
> 6. Save/build for the future of the people. Doubtful.
> 
> I could go on.
> 
> Since we have a Swede here on the forum, I can tell you a story from the Swedish gas "adventure": They drilled a few holes in the ground in Værmland (a county in Sweden), and behold: They found gas! But: It was less gas than they could produce by putting a hose into every Swedish cow's a.s and collect the daily gas...
> 
> Sorry Anders; just having fun...


You know I could tell some of our funny stories about norwegians but i am to kind.

But at least you cant eat all the oil you have, you have to come to sweden and buy all your food. But its ok, we earn a lot on it.

But now bedtime 
, we pack for Cyprus move tomorrow

A


----------



## NoEuro

titania said:


> Well then, Norway bail out Cyprus, Norway gets to market Cyprus gas in a non-corrupted way, and Norwegians get the money back in 20 years and meantime go for free on Cyprus beaches in winter???


In am now in intense contact wth my MP, thank you!



titania said:


> How do these quantities compare with, say, Norway? If these are as huge as I am led to believe, it's even more extraordinary that the EU is blackmailing this country, and doubting its ability to repay a loan.


Not very interesting I am afraid. Marginal. Think of the costs ahead for one decade, + equipment + + + +


----------



## oronero

Vegaanders said:


> ...if it is handled correct, and not spoilt by the government


...and their track record is great so far, I am not sure that I share your optimism though.


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> But at least you cant eat all the oil you have, you have to come to sweden and buy all your food. But its ok, we earn a lot on it


Best income you have. We pray on cheap countries and enjoy any income you can get from us. Well done.

Sleep well.


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## titania

Vegaanders said:


> ...snip...
> , we pack for Cyprus move tomorrow
> 
> A


Godspeed! Let us know how it feels when you get there


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> As I have written many times, please not only criticize and complain, give a solution. And a solution that will avoid the bankruptcy and not one that will be effective in ten years. What should Cyprus do to avoid this?


Let the banks fail. Let them follow Lehmans and Lansbanki.

Contrary to some overly emotional opinions expressed, this will not mean starving children on the streets etc etc. 

The Deposit Guarantee Scheme should ensure that all deposits of up to €100,000 (€200,000 for joint accounts) are safe, but anything above that is lost. The banks should have sufficient assets to cover this without needing Govt support.

If any individual, or organisation, invests more than €100,000 (€200,000 for joint accounts) knowing that it is not guaranteed, they are not wise. *There is a price to be paid for a 4% interest rate, and it is called risk. * Caveat emptor!

Russian money in Cypriot banks amonts to €33Bn. I do not know how much of this is at risk (ie over €100,000 in each account, but I'm sure that it will more than cover the €5.8Bn to be found.

This will ensure that domestic customers are (relatively) safe, that the poorest and middle class are not left with an unfair burden, and large investors who have taken a risk bear the brunt.


----------



## oronero

NoEuro said:


> Veronika,
> 
> I cannot find an ealier post of mine this evening in this thread where I critised your moderator efforts against travelling-man, first and foremost. Has it been deleted? By whom? And why? It was not meant as an offense, just tutoring. If I broke any rules of the forum, let me know, and I will humbly apologise.
> .


*
NoEuro*, your post at 8.47pm appears to have been deleted for being inflammatory!


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## oronero

Hay *NoEuro*, this is only the start of silencing opposing criticism...wait until the Governments start interfering with 'freedom of speech'!!!


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## Guest

Russian expat invasion of Cyprus also has sinister overtones | World news | The Guardian .......... old news but worth a read...


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## Guest

Cyprus bailout crisis: Betrayal of Our Boys in Cyprus: Ministers pledged to protect UK soldiers' cash. Now they say savings WILL be hit | Mail Online ....what a crap govt the uk have ...


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## oronero

All of our UK Governments have been crap for a long time in my opinion, irrespective of their Political stance.

All they appear to truly care about is getting their faces into the trough and lining their pockets, it has got worse over the last two decades!

I am looking forward to abandoning ship, I'm not going to switch any lights off or close any doors when I go.


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## Guest

Today's news

Eurogroup wants Cyprus to protect small savers - Cyprus Mail

They also state that it was Finland and not Germany that forced the levy on Cyprus. Without it no agreement.

Now they also say that it should be 15,5% over 100000 and nothing under. To keep the promise to guarantee 100000.

They also say that 2/3 of all deposits in Cyprus Banks come from abroad


----------



## Guest

Will Russia try to seize a foothold in the Med? Energy giant offers to restructure banks in exchange for gas exploration rights | Mail Online ..Cyprus might just abandon the EU and cosy up to Russia which might not be a bad thing but only the people who live in Cyprus will really know if it is a good thing or not ...what are your thoughts on this matter ..


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> Will Russia try to seize a foothold in the Med? Energy giant offers to restructure banks in exchange for gas exploration rights | Mail Online ..Cyprus might just abandon the EU and cosy up to Russia which might not be a bad thing but only the people who live in Cyprus will really know if it is a good thing or not ...what are your thoughts on this matter ..


This is really old news. According to Russian news, president Putin has already said no to Gazprom on this matter

But I have always believed that if Russia will help, and also the 2,5 billion loan they have already given, they only do it to get to the gas and oil. They want to protect their income from EU and if Cyprus can sell gas to EU this income will go down and also possibility to political pressure using the gas.

And Russia has not much else to offer..

Anders


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## Guest

just a thought ...how many govt officials pulled their monies out of the banks prior to releasing the news mmmm.


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## Waterdog

oronero said:


> All of our UK Governments have been crap for a long time in my opinion, irrespective of their Political stance.
> 
> All they appear to truly care about is getting their faces into the trough and lining their pockets, it has got worse over the last two decades!
> 
> I am looking forward to abandoning ship, I'm not going to switch any lights off or close any doors when I go.


Understand you are a UK Expat in Portugal posting on a Cypriot Site - interesting.

To be fair your comment is universal & applies to all of us - so where are you gong to abandon ship to? 

Death would seem the only certain option but this is a bit drastic?


----------



## oronero

Waterdog said:


> Understand you are a UK Expat in Portugal posting on a Cypriot Site - interesting.
> 
> To be fair your comment is universal & applies to all of us - so where are you gong to abandon ship to?
> 
> Death would seem the only certain option but this is a bit drastic?


I am between the two at the moment but seem to be spending too much time in the UK.

Death at this point in time is not an option!


----------



## PeteandSylv

This discussion is now pointing to the enormous value of the gas reserves and the advantage Cyprus has which is why I find it even more condemning of the EU to not use these as collateral for loans.

If handled correctly Cyprus will have a choice of partners for extraction and processing and also a choice of markets to release the gas into. Pipelines to Russia, Turkey, Greece can all be considered although if it were Greece I'd want the money upfront!

Russia is still seen as the bogeyman by many and I don't understand it. They have as valid market as anyone else and at the moment are indicative of being a better friend than any member of the EU.

Pete


----------



## Veronica

trev1234 said:


> Cyprus bailout crisis: Betrayal of Our Boys in Cyprus: Ministers pledged to protect UK soldiers' cash. Now they say savings WILL be hit | Mail Online ....what a crap govt the uk have ...


Actually if you read the article what they are saying is that if they have transferred money from the Uk to Cyprus savings accounts for buying properties for their retirement this money will not be protected. Money in current accounts which their salaries are paid into will be protected.
In my opinion this is fair. If they choose to bring money here which is not for day to day living but speculative for the future why should it be protected any more than money which expats have here. ?
If the government protected speculative deposits the expats in Cyprus would be entitled to cry discrimination and want their pensions and savings to also be protected.


----------



## PeteandSylv

oronero said:


> I am between the two at the moment but seem to be spending too much time in the UK.
> 
> Death at this point in time is not an option!


Death is always an option but is usually blighted by inheritance tax!!

Anyway some of my past relatives told me it is overated up there!



Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> This discussion is now pointing to the enormous value of the gas reserves and the advantage Cyprus has which is why I find it even more condemning of the EU to not use these as collateral for loans.
> 
> If handled correctly Cyprus will have a choice of partners for extraction and processing and also a choice of markets to release the gas into. Pipelines to Russia, Turkey, Greece can all be considered although if it were Greece I'd want the money upfront!
> 
> Russia is still seen as the bogeyman by many and I don't understand it. They have as valid market as anyone else and at the moment are indicative of being a better friend than any member of the EU.
> 
> Pete


Is it not the problem? That no one knows really about the gas value. And if no one knows how can it be used as collateral? 

I have nothing against Russia really, but I have seen close how Gazprom treats even countries to get what they want.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Is it not the problem? That no one knows really about the gas value. And if no one knows how can it be used as collateral?
> 
> I have nothing against Russia really, but I have seen close how Gazprom treats even countries to get what they want.


The surveys that have been done on just a small area have given a clear indication of the likely size of the gas reserves. I believe they are part of the same underlying gas field that Israel is successfully extracting from. As such the value of the gas can be assessed and a contract offering a guaranteed percentage for loan repayment should be able to stand as collateral. This is a far more cohesive guarantee than writing a piece of paper called a bond with nothing behind it but blind trust.

Gazprom are just one of several companies that could partner the extraction and from what I read in the press Russia is the only country attempting to befriend Cyprus and help constructively. Certainly Germany, Finland, Netherlands and all the other sheep in the EU trailing behind them aren't.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> The surveys that have been done on just a small area have given a clear indication of the likely size of the gas reserves. I believe they are part of the same underlying gas field that Israel is successfully extracting from. As such the value of the gas can be assessed and a contract offering a guaranteed percentage for loan repayment should be able to stand as collateral. This is a far more cohesive guarantee than writing a piece of paper called a bond with nothing behind it but blind trust.
> 
> Gazprom are just one of several companies that could partner the extraction and from what I read in the press Russia is the only country attempting to befriend Cyprus and help constructively. Certainly Germany, Finland, Netherlands and all the other sheep in the EU trailing behind them aren't.
> 
> Pete


I would agree with you if I new the hidden agenda Russia has. No one will convince me that Russia will help because they are kind. Everything is politics. Cyprus is not only a country with gas assets, it is also a very important strategic country between Europe and Asia


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I would agree with you if I new the hidden agenda Russia has. No one will convince me that Russia will help because they are kind. Everything is politics. Cyprus is not only a country with gas assets, it is also a very important strategic country between Europe and Asia


Of course they will have their reasons, it's money we're talking about!

There is a lot of Russian investment in Cyprus and contrary to what a lot of whinging ex-pats say, I cannot believe it is all laundered money. There must be a substantial amount of legitimate money whose owner's are about to be robbed. Given that the EU was supposed to involve Russia in their discussions because of the level of investment it is not surprising that Russia is angered by the EU and is taking a favourable stance towards Cyprus.

Even if this is not the reason and there is a hidden agenda it need not be sinister. Russia is a very different country from the Russia of the cold war days.

It might be worth thinking about whether Russia could be a better partner for Cyprus than the EU. I have a very short list of benefits that EU membership has given Cyprus. Let us not forget that that Greece entered the EU on a series of financial lies and has received a far bigger bailout while Cyprus is the country the EU has decided to bully.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Of course they will have their reasons, it's money we're talking about!
> 
> There is a lot of Russian investment in Cyprus and contrary to what a lot of whinging ex-pats say, I cannot believe it is all laundered money. There must be a substantial amount of legitimate money whose owner's are about to be robbed. Given that the EU was supposed to involve Russia in their discussions because of the level of investment it is not surprising that Russia is angered by the EU and is taking a favourable stance towards Cyprus.
> 
> Even if this is not the reason and there is a hidden agenda it need not be sinister. Russia is a very different country from the Russia of the cold war days.
> 
> It might be worth thinking about whether Russia could be a better partner for Cyprus than the EU. I have a very short list of benefits that EU membership has given Cyprus. Let us not forget that that Greece entered the EU on a series of financial lies and has received a far bigger bailout while Cyprus is the country the EU has decided to bully.
> 
> Pete


I have never been afraid of Russia even as Swede being told about the Russian bear in the east and having them on the doorstep. And I am not afraid of them now. I am very sure there is a lot of legit Russian investments in Cyprus. 

For me any solution that favours Cyprus is ok, But not a bankruptcy for the banks because that would be a disaster no one can imagine

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> For me any solution that favours Cyprus is ok, But not a bankruptcy for the banks because that would be a disaster no one can imagine
> 
> Anders


A disaster certain people have been wishing on us


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> A disaster certain people have been wishing on us


I really don't think any of these people understand what would happen.


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> I really don't think any of these people understand what would happen.


I agree.


----------



## oronero

Nobody for sure would know the implications of bankruptcy upon a member state of the EU.

What is happening to Cyprus is of great interest to all other residents of other Member States, as it could happen in our own countries.

Remember that the rules applicable to one country are the same that apply to all others generally, within the EU.

Very difficult times for the general public.


----------



## Guest

oronero said:


> Nobody for sure would know the implications of bankruptcy upon a member state of the EU.
> 
> What is happening to Cyprus is of great interest to all other residents of other Member States, as it could happen in our own countries.
> 
> Remember that the rules applicable to one country are the same that apply to all others generally, within the EU.
> 
> Very difficult times for the general public.


I have to disappoint you, rules are not the same for everyone. These last days clearly shows that


----------



## Veronica

I think the government are are deliberately putting off making a decision to give time for the rest of Europe to start panicking about the possibility that it could happen to them. If panic starts in other countries the IMF and Frau Merkle will have to capitulate and give time for another solution to be worked out.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> I think the government are are deliberately putting off making a decision to give time for the rest of Europe to start panicking about the possibility that it could happen to them. If panic starts in other countries the IMF and Frau Merkle will have to capitulate and give time for another solution to be worked out.


So you have not read that it was Finland who forced the levy on Cyprus. Clearly they saw a chance to get back on Russia for the last 70 years by hitting them where it hurt most, the money. That all others also got hurt was a minor problem.

Please dont blame Germany anymore, I have German plates on my car:boxing:


----------



## oronero

Vegaanders said:


> I have to disappoint you, rules are not the same for everyone. These last days clearly shows that


Exactly my point...nothing is safe nor secure, not even the rules. It would appear that they can be changed whenever it suits those that are in control! 

It can happen anywhere in Europe, so it would seem, if this actually happens in Cyprus.


----------



## dave22

So we are to forgive Frau Merkel and the other EU Ministers who have imposed this on a small island.. No i for one will not forgive They would have thought twice had it been Spain/Itay/Potugal........


----------



## Guest

dave22 said:


> So we are to forgive Frau Merkel and the other EU Ministers who have imposed this on a small island.. No i for one will not forgive They would have thought twice had it been Spain/Itay/Potugal........


They are all in it but it was not Germany that pushed for the banklevy. Ofc they would not do it in these other countries because its a little different size of economy


----------



## dave22

Yes it was Germany that forced it Ask anyone in Cyprus Frau Merkel does not like the Russians and so has put the Cypriot people and expats in a very difficult postion, and i do not know how she can sleep at night, The woman is power Crazy and thinks that she runs the E U.......


----------



## Guest

dave22 said:


> Yes it was Germany that forced it Ask anyone in Cyprus Frau Merkel does not like the Russians and so has put the Cypriot people and expats in a very difficult postion, and i do not know how she can sleep at night, The woman is power Crazy and thinks that she runs the E U.......


Who in Cyprus did you ask?

And I cant agree that she is power hungry, but I can agree that she has power in EU. Things that Germany don't want will not happen. That is power you get when you pay the big majority of all the bailout money to the southern part of EU.

Right or wrong - it is still a fact


----------



## virgil

Matt cartoons witty political cartoons and satirical sketches - Telegraph


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Things that Germany don't want will not happen. That is power you get when you pay the big majority of all the bailout money to the southern part of EU.
> 
> Right or wrong - it is still a fact


So implicitly, you say that Germany is running this EU show? I tend to agree with you.

From what I can deduct from the news, Cyprus will not agree to the EU demands. If they don't then Russia will come to play, as I understand it. We will know more after 15.00 today, I suppose.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> So implicitly, you say that Germany is running this EU show? I tend to agree with you.
> 
> From what I can deduct from the news, Cyprus will not agree to the EU demands. If they don't then Russia will come to play, as I understand it. We will know more after 15.00 today, I suppose.


UPDATED: Cypriot draft bill drops levy on deposits below 20,000 euros - Cyprus Mail

There are so much rumors


----------



## SarahMcG

Been watching this thread and keeping an eye on the news too, have just read this

Troops betrayed in Cyprus bank grab as Russians seize £2billion | The Sun |News|Politics

As others have said on here it does make you wonder if they get away with this theft, who's next. Hope it does not give the moron Cameron any ideas


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> UPDATED: Cypriot draft bill drops levy on deposits below 20,000 euros - Cyprus Mail
> 
> There are so much rumors


This is the problem. So many rumours, no one really knows what the truth is and what is going to happen.
All we can do is wait and see and hope that whatever does happen isn't too painful.


----------



## Alpujarran

*Debit/Credit cards*

Can you guys still use debit-cards or credit-cards over there?


----------



## Guest

Alpujarran said:


> Can you guys still use debit-cards or credit-cards over there?


Why should they not be able to use them? ATM machines also work


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders:

Alpujarran asked a legit question. Here is some info:


Not everybody thinks it's obvious, clearly: Cyprus Mail.

A comment to that article said: "They must be worried the ATMs won't be refilled again.. or they know something.
Better get your money while you can."


----------



## Alpujarran

*cards*

NoEuro: thanks
Vegaanders: can I take it as a "_yes_" then?


----------



## Guest

Alpujarran said:


> NoEuro: thanks
> Vegaanders: can I take it as a "_yes_" then?


If the ATM:s work I suspect that they work yes


----------



## kempo23

dave22 said:


> Yes it was Germany that forced it Ask anyone in Cyprus Frau Merkel does not like the Russians and so has put the Cypriot people and expats in a very difficult postion, and i do not know how she can sleep at night, The woman is power Crazy and thinks that she runs the E U.......


She (Germany) does run the Eurozone! Any talk of Finland being the drivers of this is just a cover up. Germany is becoming more and more disliked. So this begs the question, why are Germany bailing out these countries and facing the wrath of the affected countries citizens, if there isn't something substantial in it for them?


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> She (Germany) does run the Eurozone! Any talk of Finland being the drivers of this is just a cover up. Germany is becoming more and more disliked. So this begs the question, why are Germany bailing out these countries and facing the wrath of the affected countries citizens, if there isn't something substantial in it for them?


I just cant understand this hate against Germany. What has today's Germany done against UK or any other country? More then spent a hell lot of money saving your sorry ass.

Anders


----------



## kempo23

There is no hate from me, just expressing the facts and asking an obvious question!


----------



## Guest

Vegaanders said:


> I just cant understand this hate against Germany. What has today's Germany done against UK or any other country? More then spent a hell lot of money saving your sorry ass.
> 
> Anders


 to whom are you referring to with your sorry arse comment ....a Brit?


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I just cant understand this hate against Germany. What has today's Germany done against UK or any other country? More then spent a hell lot of money saving your sorry ass.
> 
> Anders


They have spent no money at all. All bailout money and support of that nature has come from the EU.

That is the point. You like many others see the EU as controlled by Germany even if you don't realise it.

By all accounts the demand for the Cyprus Robbery came from Germany, Finland and Netherlands. Merkel's reported statements clearly show her as the ringleader in this sorry trio.

Pete


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I just cant understand this hate against Germany. What has today's Germany done against UK or any other country? More then spent a hell lot of money saving your sorry ass.
> 
> Anders


Anders, I think you should ask the people of Cyprus and a few other countries that question. I personally have nothing against today's Germany. But it is very clear, seeing all the pictures in the news everywhere, of protesters blaming Germany/Merkel for their mess, that Germany is not popular in some EU countries. That simply can't be denied. If it is fair, is another matter, IMHO.


----------



## virgil

Cyprus: The ghost of the West yet to come - The Commentator


----------



## PeteandSylv

virgil said:


> Cyprus: The ghost of the West yet to come - The Commentator


There is a lot of sense in that article but no offer of solutions. I understand his criticism of banks in general and cannot disagree with the irresponsible way in which their directors allow them to behave. I remember the then cash rich and strong banks in the UK buying up estate agents everywhere during the housing boom. Estate agents had nothing to do with core banking and as soon as the boom subsided as surely it had to, the estate agents were sold off at huge losses in many cases.

Bankers, left to their own resources behave irresponsibly, take excessive risk (Cyprus), oversell products to marginally capable people (USA), and forget their purpose (UK).

As a result of this behaviour it is up to Governments to provide regulatory organisations to oversee banker's behaviour and this is the key element of failure that occurred in the UK and USA where the regulatory bodies were ineffective and in Cyprus where they are non-existent.

Pete


----------



## MacManiac

Live tv feed from Nicosia and the parliament has rejected the EU bailout plan ...


----------



## NoEuro

BREAKING NEWS:

They just said on national TV here that Cyprus has voted NO to the bank "tax" (Robbery).

What's coming next?

Finally: A small country with BIG balls!

I found this article very interesting:

cnbc.com


----------



## Strovolian

Vegaanders said:


> Why should they not be able to use them? ATM machines also work


Yes - ATMs work when there is money in them but you can not withdraw money from your current accounts. The only way to cash out of an ATM here at present is using a credit card - meaning of course that you are committing to paying back around 113% of what you draw out.


----------



## NoEuro

Not a single vote in favor. It would of course be politial suicide to vote *for* stealing people's savings...

Cyprus Parliament Vote On Bailout Deal - Business Insider
.
The irony is now that Russia (of all countries!) will be the one to save the "capitalist" system of EU by helping Cyprus, and get a naval base and foothold in the Mediterranean, most likely.

According to TV, the Cypriot minister of finance is in Moskow, talking with Medjedev...

Strovolian: Also reported on TV is that ATMs are out, EFT is closed, basically everything bankingwise. But those who are there know best, of course.


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> There is no hate from me, just expressing the facts and asking an obvious question!


So what is the facts then about Germany. You seem to be an expert


----------



## PeteandSylv

The voting was 36 NO, 19 Abstained, 0 YES.

This is a clear decision for Cyprus to face up and call the EU's bluff over their unreasonable, immoral and possibly illegal terms.

We may be seeing the start of a process that changes the EU from it's German led basis to something more resembling a Union.

However at what cost this may be to us in Cyprus I do not know.

Pete


----------



## Strovolian

Strovolian: Also reported on TV is that ATMs are out, EFT is closed, basically everything bankingwise. But those who are there know best, of course.[/quote]

I am in Cyprus and watched next door neighbour make the cash withdrawal on his credit card this morning having failed to get money out on his debit card. I accept that machines empty very quickly and are not being refilled on any sort of predictable basis. If I was asked if one should rely on ATMs my answer would be no.


----------



## Veronica

We made a withdrawal with our DEBIT card today. No problems and of course no having to pay back anything.
I don't know where the story that you can only use credit cards comes from


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> The voting was 36 NO, 19 Abstained, 0 YES.
> 
> This is a clear decision for Cyprus to face up and call the EU's bluff over their unreasonable, immoral and possibly illegal terms.
> 
> We may be seeing the start of a process that changes the EU from it's German led basis to something more resembling a Union.
> 
> However at what cost this may be to us in Cyprus I do not know.
> 
> Pete


Swedish news report that Frau Merkel called Cyprus president and said that if he negotiated with Russia deal is off

Dont know what they are after


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Swedish news report that Frau Merkel called Cyprus president and said that if he negotiated with Russia deal is off
> 
> Dont know what they are after


Once again we have the example of Germany via Merkel thinking it controls the EU. It is not surprising then that anti-Germany feeling is starting to run high.

The German ***** is not into negotiating at all.

If a deal is struck with Russia we could be in a position of Cyprus telling the EU to f*ck off once and for all. This may get rather more support than many people would realise and is starting to look more attractive with every new piece of German aggression.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> The voting was 36 NO, 19 Abstained, 0 YES.
> 
> This is a clear decision for Cyprus to face up and call the EU's bluff over their unreasonable, immoral and possibly illegal terms.
> 
> We may be seeing the start of a process that changes the EU from it's German led basis to something more resembling a Union.
> 
> However at what cost this may be to us in Cyprus I do not know.
> 
> Pete


I am sure the president have a backup plan. Probably Russia lurk in the shadows. If it saves Cyprus so be it. Hope Cyprus is still in operation when we arrive 10 of April. And give us permission to stay befor leaving EU


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Swedish news report that Frau Merkel called Cyprus president and said that if he negotiated with Russia deal is off
> 
> Dont know what they are after


I think that Frau Merkel has just started a process that will lead to major changes within EU, without her understanding it.

Cyprus has been bullied by the big guns, but have decided to strike bank, and it does it with force! Everything can happen now, and it may bring positve effects for many countries when the dust settles in a few days.

For now, noone will be robbed, and the amount they need is not THAT big: Russia can/will help, and that will put the rest of EU in a very peculiar light: EU is not able to take proper care of their own...

Heck, little Norway could raise the money they need with what we produce before lunch or so  But then again, we're on the outside, just watching this EU circus.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> I think that Frau Merkel has just started a process that will lead to major changes within EU, without her understanding it.
> 
> Cyprus has been bullied by the big guns, but have decided to strike bank, and it does it with force! Everything can happen now, and it may bring positve effects for many countries when the dust settles in a few days.
> 
> For now, noone will be robbed, and the amount they need is not THAT big: Russia can/will help, and that will put the rest of EU in a very peculiar light: EU is not able to take proper care of their own...
> 
> Heck, little Norway could raise the money they need with what we produce before lunch or so  But then again, we're on the outside, just watching this EU circus.


I am sure there is something going on that is not known. What will the Cyprus finance minister do in Russia tomorrow? I doubt that they dare to vote NO without some assurance. But one thing is for sure. The new president will be popular and save his neck if he sort this out


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Swedish news report that Frau Merkel called Cyprus president and said that if he negotiated with Russia deal is off
> 
> Dont know what they are after


Anders, this should be clear and present evidence that Germany is the big bully in the EU class. No surprise.

But for the life of it, I am not able to understand her stubbornness towards one of the EU members :ranger: and sending them straight into the arms of Russia!

And I agree with you completely: Something is happening behind the scenes. They must have a plan B fairly ready already. And I do not think Plan B is good for the EU concept, since EU now has failed miserably towards one of "their own". I doubt if many Cypriots feel that they are part of a "union" right now, and some other countries have a lot to think about tonight...

Very brave decision: My hat off to the Cypriots!

We live in interesting times.


----------



## kempo23

Vegaanders said:


> So what is the facts then about Germany. You seem to be an expert


I am no expert, just a common Brit with an ounce of sense. Clearly they must block any anti German news in the Fatherland. Now, when did that last happen? :confused2:


----------



## Veronica

Please can we NOT turn this thread into Germany bashing. 
This is not the place to start WW3.


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> I am no expert, just a common Brit with an ounce of sense. Clearly they must block any anti German news in the Fatherland. Now, when did that last happen? :confused2:


I was sure this stupid comment should show up. You blame today's Germans for what happened 70 years ago. Then perhaps we should also start a discussion about what the Brits did to Cyprus during the colonial time. Or perhaps you should ask the Cypriots about it.


----------



## kempo23

Veronica said:


> Please can we NOT turn this thread into Germany bashing.
> This is not the place to start WW3.


This is not German bashing!!!! Look at the news, Germany is dictating to other EU countries, this cannot and must not be accepted. I for one am pleased that someone has stood up to Germany's demands at last!


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> This is not German bashing!!!! Look at the news, Germany is dictating to other EU countries, this cannot and must not be accepted. I for one am pleased that someone has stood up to Germany's demands at last!


We have to see, but it can have horrible consequences, at least for people living in Cyprus....


----------



## Veronica

Please stop this both of you.
Any more of it and I will close the thread.
Lets get back to debating what might happen now that Cyprus has stood up to Germany, Finland, The Netherlands and the IMF.


----------



## NoEuro

Veronika,

I do not think Germany's been bashed here. According to a post from Vegaanders earlier today regarding news from Sweden, Frau Merkel tried to give a direct order to the President of Cypros about "deal is off" if they tried to talk with Russia. I call *that* bashing.

In the international news, we have seen pictures of protesting people in different tormented countries with posters blaming Germany/Merkel. Are we not allowed to mention/comment this on this forum?

But fully agree: Back on topic.

I believe the Cypriots already have a plan together with Russia. Otherwise, thay would not have cut off EU.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Veronika,
> 
> I do not think Germany's been bashed here. According to a post from Vegaanders earlier today regarding news from Sweden, Frau Merkel tried to give a direct order to the President of Cypros about "deal is off" if they tried to talk with Russia. I call *that* bashing.
> 
> In the international news, we have seen pictures of protesting people in different tormented countries with posters blaming Germany/Merkel. Are we not allowed to mention/comment this on this forum?


I dont think comments about "das Vaterland" has anything to do with this discussion


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I dont think comments about "das Vaterland" has anything to do with this discussion


THAT i can agree on. It brings out memories best forgotten and not appropriate today. And I have never used that word. Wrong address.

I also do not use phrases like "sorry ass" and "stupid comment".


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> THAT i can agree on. It brings out memories best forgotten and not appropriate today. And I have never used that word. Wrong address.


No I know


----------



## Guest

Vegaanders said:


> No I know


But WHAT will happen now. Anyone knows?


----------



## Veronica

This is the worrying thing, what will happen now? Does the country declare itself bankrupt which is the very thing we did not want or is there another way out of this mess?


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> But WHAT will happen now. Anyone knows?


I don't think many except the rulers of Cyprus and Russia knows right now. But here is my 2 cents, for what it's worth:

I consider 10 bill. Euro to be a bargain for Russia in order to get access to a naval base and landhold in the Mediterranean. I cannot believe that the EU hasn't understood this, but it appears to be the case. Anyway, we can rest assured that somethng is happening right now, and it may be very good for Cyprus.

Russians have billions in the Cyprus banks today. That should guarantee that the money (incl. what citizens from other countries possess) will not be worthless. If there will be a change of currency? Maybe. But the Russians can back that currency in one way or the other. So I think all people's money will be safe. Maybe a beer will cost not 2 Euros, but 5 Rubels  ?

Cyprus in itself is irrelevant in size, but in location? Take a look at the map... Close to many NATO-countries, Middle East, Africa... The strategic advances are almost endless.

As a continued tax haven? Take a look at all the wealthy Russians in need of one...

Gas resources? Russia really don't need them: They already have more than they can handle. They recently postponed the buildout of a huge field in the Barents Sea for the next 30 years: Falling gas prices. So let Cyprus produce their gas themselves and build the country as a future safe haven. Wiith Russian gas technology (they are good at it), bought at a good price for Russia.. In the Mediterranean.

If I were Putin/Medvedjev, I would have all the money ready in suitcases by tomorrow morning, and throw a h..l of a celebration party in Kremlin tonight. Too good to be true.

So all in all, I will not be surprised if Cyprus leaves the EU, and become the "Little Cuba" of the Mediterranean. More or less like Hong Kong is for China.

This has also strengthened the belief in the banking system, which, if the "haircut" was voted in, would have created an immediate bank run all over Europe (at least).

Just my 2 cents. But: What's wrong with them (the 2 cents)?

Veronika: No bankrupcy: Cyprus is better than that IMHO.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> But WHAT will happen now. Anyone knows?


Here's the view of The Guardian:

_"So what happens next? Forget some of the more far-fetched scenarios being mooted yesterday. Cypriot MPs voted down the idea of tax on bank deposits as a condition of a bail out last night and they are unlikely to have a crash re-think given the public fury at the raid on their savings. Vladimir Putin is not going to come to the rescue with some cash from the Kremlin - though there were rumours last night that state-controlled energy company Gazprom might rescue the most troubled bank in return for seizing control of the island’s potentially lucrative gas reserves. But this is not one of the times when Europe can kick the can down the road, hoping that all will be well in time.

Instead, there are really only two plausible scenarios: somebody - be it Europe or the IMF - gives Cyprus more money, in which case there is a chance that the crisis can be contained. Or Germany and the other hardline euro zone countries can insist that the deal is non-negotiable. In which case, the banks in Cyprus will go bust, risking widespread turmoil.

Given the precarious euro zone economy and the enfeebled state of European banks, cutting Cyprus a better deal looks like the safer option. The package could be restructured so that only deposits in excess of €100,000 were taxed, the preferred option of Christine Lagarde at the IMF. Sparing those with savings of less than €100,000 from any pain would require the bigger depositors to pay a 15.5% tax to find the €5.8bn demanded of Cyprus. Alternatively, Europe could
easily find the extra €5.8bn itself.

The problem is that both options will cause political problems. Putin will bridle at suggestions that Russian citizens - who make up a large proportion of the €100,000 depositors - should be singled out. And Merkel could expect an almighty domestic backlash if she backtracked from the tough stance she adopted at the weekend. But the alternative is to let the banks in Cyprus go bust as soon as they are reopened after the extended bank holiday and hope that it really is a “special case”. That looks like an awfully big gamble"._


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> Here's the view of The Guardian:


Not impressed by The Guardian: It will only prolong the pain and ruin Cyprus' reputation as a safe banking enviroment. I also believe that after having gone through this unfriendy "conversation" from the EU, the Cypriots are ready for a more positive/creative solution, and certainly do not want to be "friends" with their EU "helpers"....

If you prefer my "solution", you can press "Like"...


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> If you prefer my "solution", you can press "Like"...


:deadhorse:


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> :deadhorse:


Ha, ha! Thanks! But the Euro symbol would have been more appropriate as the dead horse...

Edit: I should be more cynical: The 100.000 Euro limit is bulls..t. It is the punishment of the* BIG* money that will destroy the reputation of Cyprus. I can't imagine that that is going to happen. So it was a wise decision made tonight. Cheers to the brave Cypriots! Or should I say: Nastarovje...


----------



## Strovolian

Based on the speeches I listened to this evening the hopes are:

Russians will bail out economy and banks in exchange for oil fields and rights to gas/oil and possibly a bank.
One bank is allowed to fail - before being handed over to Russia.
Cypriots around the world will send money to bail out economy
Homeland Cypriots will voluntarily hand over money to their Government

Many of the 'No' speeches in Parliament tonight had a very patriotic feel to them, harking back to 1974 and the re-building after the invasion. 

Cypriots, by upbringing, are fiercely patriotic and independent. They may well get a long way towards achieving the above to spite the factions in EU they now see as enemies. When you look at the amounts they require, remember that 4 billion of their deficit comes from loyalty to Greece and supporting the Eurozone system. They feel very very hurt and angry at they way they are being treated differently.

I know it is a big ask but I sat in a room full of Cypriots vowing to hand over double what they would have been 'scalped' and have no reason to believe they won't do so if asked.

For those of you not in Cyprus - the whole Parliamentary debate was screened live on a number of channels. It certainly feels tonight as if a politically divided nation has been unified.

I honestly don't know if they will make it - they know the days, weeks, months ahead are going to be very hard but - for those of you old enough or grey enough - it does remind me of that Peter Sellers' film 'The Mouse that Roared'.

Have a good night.


----------



## NoEuro

Strovolian said:


> Cypriots, by upbringing, are fiercely patriotic and independent. They may well get a long way towards achieving the above to spite the factions in EU they now see as enemies. When you look at the amounts they require, remember that 4 billion of their deficit comes from loyalty to Greece and supporting the Eurozone system. They feel very very hurt and angry at they way they are being treated differently.


I know. EU has grossly underestimated the power and proud feeling of this little country. Proud of you. It will turn out better than anyone predicts today, most likely better than ever before. Some other countries in the EU will learn a much needed lesson from Cyprus.


----------



## jojo

NoEuro said:


> I know. EU has grossly underestimated the power and proud feeling of this little country. Proud of you. It will turn out better than anyone predicts today, most likely better than ever before. Some other countries in the EU will learn a much needed lesson from Cyprus.


Lets hope so, cos I cant help feeling that the rest of the southern european countries are watching with great interest!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## paul44

Having endured almost 4 years of pain here in Ireland I salute the Cypriot people for standing up to the EU our government have no balls you have shown that a small nation can and will stand up to the faces who are only interested in themselves.The one msg that this indeed sends out is there is no UNION and anyone who thinks its all for one and one for all is mad let this be a wake up call for us all

I really hope and pray that Cyprus pulls out of there difficulties and if it takes Russian cash so what Europe has shown scant regard NOW YOU KNOW WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE IN A TIME OF NEED!!!!!!!


----------



## NoEuro

Paul44:

And now they also know who are NOT their friends in times of need...

So much for the "union".

I hope that countries like Spain, Greece, Italy and Portugal (all dear to me) will stand up just as proud and brave as Cyprus was tonight.

I have watched the "bashing" of small Cyprus wth disbelief. How can anybody call this a "union". A joke it is. and it is a poor/bad joke as well.


----------



## virgil

"_United Kingdom Independence Party MEP Nigel Farage gives his perspective on the deposit levy and Cypriot parliament vote_".


----------



## David_&_Letitia

paul44 said:


> Having endured almost 4 years of pain here in Ireland I salute the Cypriot people for standing up to the EU our government have no balls you have shown that a small nation can and will stand up to the faces who are only interested in themselves.The one msg that this indeed sends out is there is no UNION and anyone who thinks its all for one and one for all is mad let this be a wake up call for us all
> 
> I really hope and pray that Cyprus pulls out of there difficulties and if it takes Russian cash so what Europe has shown scant regard NOW YOU KNOW WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE IN A TIME OF NEED!!!!!!!


Fáilte!

Living in Belfast, I know the austerity that you have put up with, and the financial knock-on effect on us in Northern ireland, not least to our banks and property market. The EU can sometimes be likened to the playground bully. Ireland voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2008. Was this rejection accepted? No! The will of the people was deemed to be wrong, so another referendum 1 year later was to be held to produce the 'right' result. The EU decision on the Cypriot deposit levy was just another bullying tactic. Do this or else - financial bankruptcy!

Cyprus has indeed done the right thing. In military terms, this is asymetric warfare at its best - truly a David and Goiliath situation!

I hope, however, that Russia is not seen as the solution, however. As others have stated - within the EU, Cyprus was a testing ground which, thankfully, has rejected the expected result. Had they succumbed to the EU 'cunning plan', other counties would certainly have followed suit. I really hope that this injects some reality to the EU commissars, the IMF and the ECB, and the extra £5.8bn is found.


----------



## Guest

virgil said:


> "_United Kingdom Independence Party MEP Nigel Farage gives his perspective on the deposit levy and Cypriot parliament vote_".
> 
> Farage: EU wants to steal money from Cypriots bank accounts - YouTube


Perhaps he can give Cyprus a loan?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Strovolian said:


> Russians will bail out economy and banks in exchange for oil fields and rights to gas/oil and possibly a bank..


If the gas reserves are that good (and I believe that they are), why not float shares now, rather than invite Gazprom to be the sole investor? Surely the Russian private investors, Expats and Cypriots who hold all the bank deposits now (in that order) would rather shares in a realisable asset than worthless banks shares?


----------



## oronero

I am so glad to here that the Cypriot Government rejected the proposal to place a levy against money that people had in the bank.

I am sure that many will be sighing with relief...I just wonder where it all goes from here.

With regards to Russia having a potential military presence on the Island, while this not cause a problem as the UK already have such a presence?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

oronero said:


> With regards to Russia having a potential military presence on the Island, while this not cause a problem as the UK already have such a presence?


Simple answer? Yes. However, the big difference is that the UK presence is on *Sovereign* Base Areas, rather than leased from the Cypriot Govt.


----------



## Ovidia77

I'm so proud of what Cyprus did today. They stood up for all us of us serfs. And it's about time Germany is told to stop the bullying. The EU is nothing but a farce.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Just watched Newsnight.

In an interview with Jeremy Paxman, Cypriot MP Marios Mavrides said:

_If we cannot come up the €5.8bn in a few days then I think we will go to the Cyprus pound. That will be the end of Cyprus in the Eurozone._


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> Simple answer? Yes. However, the big difference is that the UK presence is on *Sovereign* Base Areas, rather than leased from the Cypriot Govt.


Which the Cypriots will nationalize over night. After this, not many European countres have any reason to be seen as a friend of Cyprus. And so off you go. Fast. Been done before in many countries. Hugo Chavez springs into my mind.

You (EU) have turned a mouse into a tiger.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> Which the Cypriots will nationalize over night. And off you go. Been done before in many countries.


Possible, but unlikely IMHO


----------



## David_&_Letitia

David_&_Letitia said:


> Possible, but unlikely IMHO


Just to qualify the reason:

The *Sovereign* Base Areas were agreed by UK, Greece and Turkey on Cyprus' independence. Any alteration cannot be made by RoC alone.


----------



## Guest

the EU is dead ...long live Cyprus...


----------



## jojo

trev1234 said:


> the EU is dead ...long live Cyprus...


Whatever we all think of the EU, unpicking it is going to cost all member countries trillions and trillions. And will take decades - with some horrendous "fallings out". the money ploughed into it ultimately will need to be paid back

Jo xxx


----------



## David_&_Letitia

jojo said:


> the money ploughed into it ultimately will need to be paid back
> 
> Jo xxx


Why? Bankruptcy effectively means that debts are written off. If there are 5 bankrupt countries (Cyprus? Portugal? Ireland? Spain? Italy?) they will not be 'in hock' to the rest of the EU forever....


----------



## Ovidia77

The EU is out of control, it either has to rethink its behavior or stop altogether. I mean, is democracy that much to ask for? Why do we have an appointed president? Why was he not elected? That's a horrible precedent. 
We are loosing our democracy, we're basically voting for people who have to lobby for us with the elite.


----------



## Guest

Drivers face MoT failure and rising repair bills as European rules impose 20 additional safety checks on brakes, steering, and lighting | Mail Online ......this is what the EU is all about rules,rules and more bloody rules ..time for the UK to have a referendum......the UK should grow some balls like Cyprus


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> Just to qualify the reason:
> 
> The *Sovereign* Base Areas were agreed by UK, Greece and Turkey on Cyprus' independence. Any alteration cannot be made by RoC alone.


Wait and see. They are on Cypriot land. You may be surprised. Has happened before.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> Wait and see. They are on Cypriot land. You may be surprised. Has happened before.


But the whole point is - it's not Cypriot land. It's *Soveriegn* land - ie a British Overseas Territory.


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> But the whole point is - it's not Cypriot land. It's *Soveriegn* land - ie a British Overseas Territory.


Yes. You have had many of those. Most are gone, very fast. Need I say Guantanamo (US), Gibralter, etc. all on the brink of being lost to the countries they belong to. The way the Cypriots have acted tonight, I advise you to take care, But it wont help: Those colonial days are over, IMHO.

Need to hit the bed now: More intersting stuff will surely pop up tomorrow. At least there are footmarks in most EU a..es tonight, and rightfully so.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

A really fascinating thread! Thanks to all who posted. I'm not personally interested in Cyprus as a destination, but it is very interesting to read expat viewpoints when a host country is in crisis.

Best of luck to the Cypriots, whatever else happens.


----------



## MartynKSA

Think the problem is, there are SO many different agendas- from the Germans wanting to hit the Russian Mafia money laundering, to local Politicians trying to say "I didn't agree to this, so don't blame me". But SOMETHING has to be agreed- life's all about compromise; it's just that the numbers involved here are (relatively for Cyprus) huge

There's no such thing as a free lunch. Agreed, the Eurozone couldn't stand by & watch Cyprus go down the pan (the risk of contagon was too great) BUT Cyprus has to take collective responsibility for its problems- nobody complained when the good times rolled & I'm sure nobody would really want to drop out of the Euro (& the rest of the Eurozone wouldn't want that either)

Potentially, this could turn into an economic/financial Bay of Pigs, but with the possibility of financial, not nuclear, fall out

Now, if only they had already started pumping gas ashore.......


----------



## Guest

Hope no one will be offended but picture is really funny and a different twist on this subject

From Russian Cyprus Forum

Anders


----------



## Veronica

David_&_Letitia said:


> But the whole point is - it's not Cypriot land. It's *Soveriegn* land - ie a British Overseas Territory.


Actually the land is not OWNED by Britain. It is leased and the British government owes millions to Cyprus in unpaid rents. Perhaps Britain should pay what it owes and it might easethe financial problems in Cyprus a little bit.


----------



## Veronica

Many Cypriots who have large deposits in the banks are now saying that rather than let the country go down they will willingly give what is needed to pay the whole of the money in return for shares of the Gas when it starts to flow. 
They say they don't want Europes money.
Our next door neighbour who is Cypriot and has plenty of money says all of his friends are saying this. They don't want the haircut that was planned as it would affect poorer people but they will voluntarily lend money to the government in return for gas shares.
Despite what many think it isn't just Russians who have large amounts of money in the banks.

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens in the next few days and weeks.


----------



## dave22

What i have listned to on the BBC World news this morning,, is that the the german Minister Straubel says the Cypriot Banks may never open What a Stupid Man...


----------



## paul44

dave22 said:


> What i have listned to on the BBC World news this morning,, is that the the german Minister Straubel says the Cypriot Banks may never open What a Stupid Man...


Typical German arrogance again these people just never learn!:boxing:


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> Actually the land is not OWNED by Britain. It is leased and the British government owes millions to Cyprus in unpaid rents. Perhaps Britain should pay what it owes and it might easethe financial problems in Cyprus a little bit.


According to Wikipedia, 20% of the SBA is OWNED by the MoD, 20% is OWNED by the Crown, and 60% is privately owned and farmed. I cannot comment on whether Britain owes any money to Cyprus - where did you obtain that information?


----------



## timouna01

Might be a bit silly but why not to create a group for anyone who wants to help cyprus by lending money ? Why not to act instead of to speak ?


----------



## PeteandSylv

timouna01 said:


> Might be a bit silly but why not to create a group for anyone who wants to help cyprus by lending money ? Why not to act instead of to speak ?


I think €17 bn might be a tad ambitious and would need rather a large mattress.



Pete


----------



## timouna01

PeteandSylv said:


> I think &#128;17 bn might be a tad ambitious and would need rather a large mattress.
> 
> 
> 
> Pete


I agree but I'm not talking of 17bn.


----------



## timouna01

Just went on Facebook and found a page called " save cyprus " with 3486 like !


----------



## PeteandSylv

timouna01 said:


> I agree but I'm not talking of 17bn.


My reply was light hearted.

Your reply was serious.

As such I'll ask if you think us psychic?

Pete


----------



## timouna01

PeteandSylv said:


> My reply was light hearted.
> 
> Your reply was serious.
> 
> As such I'll ask if you think us psychic?
> 
> Pete


I don't even want to answer to that ! If you don't understand the meaning of my post this is not a problem i do not want to justify myself either ! So if you are on the side not to help cyprus is good for you but I don't want to start a stupid debat on who is " psychic " or who is not. Not everyone is dealing well with arrogance of other if you take me like a stupid I don't mind but keep your arrogance for yourself.


----------



## PeteandSylv

timouna01 said:


> I don't even want to answer to that ! If you don't understand the meaning of my post this is not a problem i do not want to justify myself either ! So if you are on the side not to help cyprus is good for you but I don't want to start a stupid debat on who is " psychic " or who is not. Not everyone is dealing well with arrogance of other if you take me like a stupid I don't mind but keep your arrogance for yourself.


Here we go again.

Someone posts and doesn't write what he is thinking and when questioned about it resorts to insults instead of the topic at the same time as displaying a total lack of humour.

Pete


----------



## timouna01

PeteandSylv said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> Someone posts and doesn't write what he is thinking and when questioned about it resorts to insults instead of the topic at the same time as displaying a total lack of humour.
> 
> Pete


Are you serious ????? You starting attacking me and now you play the victim ! That's very funny and very hypocrite from you !


----------



## Veronica

David_&_Letitia said:


> According to Wikipedia, 20% of the SBA is OWNED by the MoD, 20% is OWNED by the Crown, and 60% is privately owned and farmed. I cannot comment on whether Britain owes any money to Cyprus - where did you obtain that information?


You've just contradicted your original statement that the Sovereign base lands are British owned. Asyou now see 60% of the land is privately owned Cypriot land.
As for BRitain owning money on the land it is not a secret. Google and I am sure you'll find something about it. 
It is also not a secret that Cyprus wants the bases to close and the land to go back to the Cypriots. This has been rumbling on for years.


----------



## kempo23

Veronica said:


> You've just contradicted your original statement that the Sovereign base lands are British owned. Asyou now see 60% of the land is privately owned Cypriot land.
> As for BRitain owning money on the land it is not a secret. Google and I am sure you'll find something about it.
> It is also not a secret that Cyprus wants the bases to close and the land to go back to the Cypriots. This has been rumbling on for years.


I hope the UK does pull out, it will save the tax payer a lot of money.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> You've just contradicted your original statement that the Sovereign base lands are British owned. Asyou now see 60% of the land is privately owned Cypriot land.
> As for BRitain owning money on the land it is not a secret. Google and I am sure you'll find something about it.
> It is also not a secret that Cyprus wants the bases to close and the land to go back to the Cypriots. This has been rumbling on for years.


No contradiction at all. In which 'original' post did I state that the SBA was OWNED? My statements all referred to Sovereignty. The bases are not the same as, for example the British military bases in Germany (which were the result of WWII and are being handed back) or Hong Kong, Malta etc (which were leased from China and Malta and have already been handed back. 

The SBAs are not leased. The are British Overseas Territories which includes for example Gibraltar (not owned by Spain nor leased from Spain) or The Falklands (not owned by Argentina nor leased from Argentina). Any proposed Russian bases, on the other hand, would be leased from Cyprus - a totally different scenario.

Wikipedia supports my statements regarding sovereignty:

"The Republic of Cyprus has de jure[22] sovereignty over the island of Cyprus and its surrounding waters, *except *for the *British Overseas Territory *of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, administered as Sovereign Base Areas". 

Now - I've quoted my source for the information on sovereignty. What is your source for what is owed by UK to Cyprus? A forum? A blog? Duly Googled and no reliable results found...


----------



## Strovolian

David_&_Letitia said:


> Just to qualify the reason:
> 
> The *Sovereign* Base Areas were agreed by UK, Greece and Turkey on Cyprus' independence. Any alteration cannot be made by RoC alone.


I agree that was how the bases were established. But the Cypriots are also clear that Britain was supposed to pay for their use - something that it has never done.

I wonder how much 53 years of back rent adds up to?


----------



## Guest

Strovolian said:


> I agree that was how the bases were established. But the Cypriots are also clear that Britain was supposed to pay for their use - something that it has never done.
> 
> I wonder how much 53 years of back rent adds up to?


5,8 Billion Euro?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

kempo23 said:


> I hope the UK does pull out, it will save the tax payer a lot of money.


Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it is highly unlikely. The SBA has a crucial listening post, a crucial RAF airstrip and is used for decompression of soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan...


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it is highly unlikely. The SBA has a crucial listening post, a crucial RAF airstrip and is used for decompression of soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan...


And if Russia want a Marine base, UK will stay for sure


----------



## kempo23

David_&_Letitia said:


> Whilst I agree with the sentiment, it is highly unlikely. The SBA has a crucial listening post, a crucial RAF airstrip and is used for decompression of soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan...


Yes, I accept the reasons for us being there. However, why should the UK be exposed to criticism and all the costs, when our presence there is not just for the benefit of the UK in terms of national security


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> Yes, I accept the reasons for us being there. However, why should the UK be exposed to criticism and all the costs, when our presence there is not just for the benefit of the UK in terms of national security


Because of the good in keeping made agreements like the contract with Cyprus for the bases


----------



## NoEuro

Interesting read:

Will The Banking Meltdown In Cyprus Be A “Lehman Brothers Moment” For All Of Europe?

I doubt English forces will start a war aganst Cyprus if they are asked to leave...?

Since EU won't help another EU member, who else can they turn to? I see only Russia and China. I bet they would be considering it very seriously, both of them.

I personally see it as that EU is beginning to fall apart in some way.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Interesting read:
> 
> Will The Banking Meltdown In Cyprus Be A “Lehman Brothers Moment” For All Of Europe?
> 
> I doubt English forces will start a war aganst Cyprus if they are asked to leave...?
> 
> Since EU won't help a nEU member, who else can they turn to? I see only Russia and China. I bet they would be considering it very seriously.
> 
> I personally see it as that EU is beginning to fall apart in some way.


I can see a EU A and B. In the B group the countries that should never have come in reside. Like Greece


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> I can see a EU A and B. In the B group the countries that should never have come in reside. Like Greece


Maybe. The blind leading the lame?


----------



## kempo23

NoEuro said:


> Interesting read:
> 
> Will The Banking Meltdown In Cyprus Be A “Lehman Brothers Moment” For All Of Europe?
> 
> I doubt English forces will start a war aganst Cyprus if they are asked to leave...?
> 
> Since EU won't help another EU member, who else can they turn to? I see only Russia and China. I bet they would be considering it very seriously, both of them.
> 
> I personally see it as that EU is beginning to fall apart in some way.


I can see the Eurozone falling apart but not the EU. From a trade perspective smaller economies would suffer badly.


----------



## dave22

And if they were to close.... how many Cypriot,s would not have a job ???


----------



## Veronica

David_&_Letitia said:


> No contradiction at all. In which 'original' post did I state that the SBA was OWNED? My statements all referred to Sovereignty. The bases are not the same as, for example the British military bases in Germany (which were the result of WWII and are being handed back) or Hong Kong, Malta etc (which were leased from China and Malta and have already been handed back.
> 
> The SBAs are not leased. The are British Overseas Territories which includes for example Gibraltar (not owned by Spain nor leased from Spain) or The Falklands (not owned by Argentina nor leased from Argentina). Any proposed Russian bases, on the other hand, would be leased from Cyprus - a totally different scenario.
> 
> Wikipedia supports my statements regarding sovereignty:
> 
> "The Republic of Cyprus has de jure[22] sovereignty over the island of Cyprus and its surrounding waters, *except *for the *British Overseas Territory *of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, administered as Sovereign Base Areas".
> 
> Now - I've quoted my source for the information on sovereignty. What is your source for what is owed by UK to Cyprus? A forum? A blog? Duly Googled and no reliable results found...


A very quick google brought this one up. 

On Militaryphotos.net

Cyprus Parliament yesterday told the government it should ask London to pay up for money it owes to Cyprus for the use of the British Bases over decades.


Under appendix R of the 1960 treaties giving Cyprus independence, London undertook to pay £12m by way of a grant within five years.

Rebuff
London has repeatedly rebuffed demands for payment. Even yesterday a British source told The Cyprus Weekly “we have discharged our financial responsibilities that had arisen from the Treaty of Establishment.”

The House resolution came at the end of a debate initiated by Edek leader Yiannakis Omirou who contended that there was a separate deal between Cyprus and the UK to cover London’s financial obligations for the use of the bases.
He said the British government had paid at the end of the first five-year term, but has since refused to make any additional payments.

House president Demetris Christofias seized on the debate to reiterate the wish of all political parties to see the closure of the bases.

I havn't searched any further as I am busy with something but I know there is a lot more out there about Britain owning Cyprus rent for the bases.


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> I can see the Eurozone falling apart but not the EU. From a trade perspective smaller economies would suffer badly.


Sweden is a quite small economy and we have never wanted the Euro even if we had a referendum about it.

Sweden is one of the best economies inside EU today with a very strong economy and we have sure gained not being in the Euro. But perhaps that is different with countries that leave


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I can see a EU A and B. In the B group the countries that should never have come in reside. Like Greece


Interestingly I have been discussing this with my good friend who left Britain 15 years ago to live permanently in the Netherlands. His view is _The problem with the EU is that the marriage of northern and southern cultures was never really viable. Very succinct explanation, but basically correct I think. As for Britain, it has never fitted in, and never will._

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Interestingly I have been discussing this with my good friend who left Britain 15 years ago to live permanently in the Netherlands. His view is _The problem with the EU is that the marriage of northern and southern cultures was never really viable. Very succinct explanation, but basically correct I think. As for Britain, it has never fitted in, and never will._
> 
> Pete


There is many northern EU members discussing a Super EU that will join closer, almost to a EUS.


----------



## kempo23

Vegaanders said:


> Sweden is a quite small economy and we have never wanted the Euro even if we had a referendum about it.
> 
> Sweden is one of the best economies inside EU today with a very strong economy and we have sure gained not being in the Euro. But perhaps that is different with countries that leave


The point is both Sweden and the UK benefits from being part of the EU, but we are not interested in being part of the Eurozone. This has to be the long term aim for Cyprus, not a withdrawal from the EU.


----------



## Guest

Will Cyprus be the safest place to deposit your dosh now they have not implemented the draconian measures the EU tried to force upon them ......


----------



## dave22

were is safe to put your money these days ???


----------



## Guest

if Britain would stop giving 13billion to over seas aid for one year or halving it over 2 years they could be offering the same deal Russia is offering Cyprus restructuring the banks and tapping into the natural gas/oil supplies and then selling it into Europe but ..and i say but.. giving Cyprus cheaper fuel rates because at the end of the day the natural resources belong to Cyprus and its people.... and that goes for Russia if they do a deal ..the Cypriot govt must get a deal for cheaper fuel costs ..it belongs to Cyprus and its people don't give it away ..


----------



## MartynKSA

just came across this site

Eurozone crisis live: Cyprus scrambles to secure new bailout | Business | guardian.co.uk


----------



## Guest

Yeah, cut this statement from the aricle. Make we want to go from here directly and not wait 2 weeks

Germany's Green party is not happy at the idea of Russia helping to prop up Cyprus. According to Reuters, co-chair of the Greens Cem Oezdemir told German radio:

I would probably not have voted 'no' if I'd been in the southern Cypriot parliament because of the possible consequences and because I don't think Cyprus should align itself with Russia.

We know this is not just about Russian money but Russia's geostrategic interest in the island. It can't be in the interests of Europe for it to have a foot in the door of an EU member state and thereby have an influence on the expansion of the European Union.

Oezdemir, of Turkish extraction, is clearly worried about the outlook for Turkey's membership of the EU. He has proposed making a bailout for Cyprus conditional on reviving talks about reunification of the island, which has been divided since 1974.


----------



## David Kolossi

"HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1960s → 1960 → July 1960 → 19 July 1960 → Commons Sitting → CYPRUS BILL
Clause 2.—(THE SOVEREIGN BASE AREAS.)

HC Deb 19 July 1960 vol 627 cc400-21 400 11.15 p.m.

§Mr. Emrys Hughes I beg to move . . . We are paying £40 million for a settlement in order to get the bases in Cyprus . . . "

&

"HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1980s → 1980 → May 1980 → 22 May 1980 → Lords Sitting
CYPRUS: BRITISH SOVEREIGN BASES

HL Deb 22 May 1980 vol 409 cc1026-8 1026
§ 3.4 p.m.

§LORD BROCKWAY My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:

1027
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how much has been paid to the Government of Cyprus since 1965 for the use of the two sovereign bases on its territory.

§LORD TREFGARNE My Lords, the sovereign base areas are not on the territory of the Republic of Cyprus. They are sovereign British territory. No fees or rent are payable for their use.
§LORD BROCKWAY Yes, my Lords; but is not this quite extraordinary? Do not the British bases occupy 99 square miles of the territory of Cyprus, and surely they are on that island as foreign sovereign bases? Surely we should be paying something to the Cyprus Government for the existence of the bases there.
§LORD TREFGARNE No, my Lords; what we should be doing is complying with the agreement which we entered into with the Cyprus Government in respect of the use of those bases. That agreement, which was signed in 1960, did not provide for the payment of rent."

("Since 1965" refers to the £12m paid to RoC at the time - in addition to the £40m initial grant.)


----------



## Veronica

dave22 said:


> were is safe to put your money these days ???


Tucked in your knickers


----------



## jojo

Veronica said:


> Tucked in your knickers



I guess that depends on how much money you have and how much space you have in your knickers ........ oh and who else ..... er.... never mind lol!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Germany's Green party is not happy at the idea of Russia helping to prop up Cyprus. According to Reuters, co-chair of the Greens Cem Oezdemir told German radio:
> 
> I would probably not have voted 'no' if I'd been in the southern Cypriot parliament because of the possible consequences and because I don't think Cyprus should align itself with Russia.
> 
> We know this is not just about Russian money but Russia's geostrategic interest in the island. It can't be in the interests of Europe for it to have a foot in the door of an EU member state and thereby have an influence on the expansion of the European Union.
> 
> Oezdemir, of Turkish extraction, is clearly worried about the outlook for Turkey's membership of the EU. He has proposed making a bailout for Cyprus conditional on reviving talks about reunification of the island, which has been divided since 1974.


"Union"
"Friends"
"Big family"
"Together"
"solidarity"

How come the word "hollow" springs into my mind?

But I am certain that Plan B, Russia, is going to work better than anyone thinks.

There is a big bully in the EU class, and only the smallest in the class is taking her on.... The others keep their mouths shut...


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> "Union"
> "Friends"
> "Big family"
> "Together"
> "solidarity"
> 
> How come the word "hollow" springs into my mind?
> 
> But I am certain that Plan B, Russia, is going to work better than anyone thinks.
> 
> There is a big bully in the EU class, and only the smallest in the class is taking her on.... The others keep their miths shut...


They are all a little afraid of the Russian bear.


----------



## NoEuro

For Cyprus:

"Who needs enemies, who has such "frends""...


----------



## David_&_Letitia

David Kolossi said:


> "HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1960s → 1960 → July 1960 → 19 July 1960 → Commons Sitting → CYPRUS BILL
> Clause 2.—(THE SOVEREIGN BASE AREAS.)
> 
> HC Deb 19 July 1960 vol 627 cc400-21 400 11.15 p.m.
> 
> §Mr. Emrys Hughes I beg to move . . . We are paying £40 million for a settlement in order to get the bases in Cyprus . . . "
> 
> &
> 
> "HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1980s → 1980 → May 1980 → 22 May 1980 → Lords Sitting
> CYPRUS: BRITISH SOVEREIGN BASES
> 
> HL Deb 22 May 1980 vol 409 cc1026-8 1026
> § 3.4 p.m.
> 
> §LORD BROCKWAY My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
> § The Question was as follows:
> 
> 1027
> § To ask Her Majesty's Government how much has been paid to the Government of Cyprus since 1965 for the use of the two sovereign bases on its territory.
> 
> §LORD TREFGARNE *My Lords, the sovereign base areas are not on the territory of the Republic of Cyprus. They are sovereign British territory. No fees or rent are payable for their use.*
> §LORD BROCKWAY Yes, my Lords; but is not this quite extraordinary? Do not the British bases occupy 99 square miles of the territory of Cyprus, and surely they are on that island as foreign sovereign bases? Surely we should be paying something to the Cyprus Government for the existence of the bases there.
> §LORD TREFGARNE No, my Lords; what we should be doing is complying with the agreement which we entered into with the Cyprus Government in respect of the use of those bases. *That agreement, which was signed in 1960, did not provide for the payment of rent."*
> 
> ("Since 1965" refers to the £12m paid to RoC at the time - in addition to the £40m initial grant.)


Extremely interesting - thank you. It appears then, that the UK does not actually owe RoC money for rent, though clearly such a perception may erroneously exist amongst the Cypriot people.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> A very quick google brought this one up.
> 
> On Militaryphotos.net
> 
> Cyprus Parliament yesterday told the government it should ask London to pay up for money it owes to Cyprus for the use of the British Bases over decades.
> 
> 
> Under appendix R of the 1960 treaties giving Cyprus independence, London undertook to pay £12m by way of a grant within five years.
> 
> Rebuff
> London has repeatedly rebuffed demands for payment. Even yesterday a British source told The Cyprus Weekly “we have discharged our financial responsibilities that had arisen from the Treaty of Establishment.”
> 
> The House resolution came at the end of a debate initiated by Edek leader Yiannakis Omirou who contended that there was a separate deal between Cyprus and the UK to cover London’s financial obligations for the use of the bases.
> He said the British government had paid at the end of the first five-year term, but has since refused to make any additional payments.
> 
> House president Demetris Christofias seized on the debate to reiterate the wish of all political parties to see the closure of the bases.
> 
> I havn't searched any further as I am busy with something but I know there is a lot more out there about Britain owning Cyprus rent for the bases.


But the website you have given is actually a Forum, similar to Expat Forum! This is hardly a solid reference to support an assertion that the UK has failed to discharge a debt to Cyprus (which frankly I found very hard to believe). All the other Google results also point (funnily enough) to Cypriot Forums, so clearly there is a perception amongst Cypriots that the UK owes money for rent, but that is not borne out by the facts.

The Sovereign Base Areas are just what it says on the tin – Sovereign Base Areas. The 1960 Treaties were signed by Greece, Turkey, UK and representatives of the newly formed RoC Govt. Greece Turkey and the UK were guarantors of the Treaties. There was no provision for rent. Check them (especially the Treaty of Guarantee).

Footnote: 12 hours after the invasion of RoC in 1974, I was sent to Cyprus with my unit (40 Commando Royal Marines) all fully armed for the sole purpose of protecting the *Sovereign* Base Areas – British Overseas Territory. We do not do that lightly.


----------



## Guest

PUTIN'S ADVISOR SERGEI GLAZYEV SUGGESTS CYPRUS SHOULD BE "UNDER RUSSIAN JURISDICTION" IF IT WANTS RUSSIAN MONEY - BBC .....................sounds good..better red than be in merkel's bed........


----------



## deks36

trev1234 said:


> PUTIN'S ADVISOR SERGEI GLAZYEV SUGGESTS CYPRUS SHOULD BE "UNDER RUSSIAN JURISDICTION" IF IT WANTS RUSSIAN MONEY - BBC .....................sounds good..better red than be in merkel's bed........



the way things are going these days I dont think it will be long before we are all under Russian or Chinese contol


----------



## NoEuro

deks36 said:


> the way things are going these days I dont think it will be long before we are all under Russian or Chinese contol


Which might not be a bad idea, really, considering the alternative: Controlled by Germany: Just look to Cyprus...

JOKING (I think)


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> PUTIN'S ADVISOR SERGEI GLAZYEV SUGGESTS CYPRUS SHOULD BE "UNDER RUSSIAN JURISDICTION" IF IT WANTS RUSSIAN MONEY - BBC .....................sounds good..better red than be in merkel's bed........


Another rumour


----------



## Guest

In Brussels, EU chiefs came under fire for their ‘bullying’ of Cyprus. UKIP MEP Roger Helmer told EU Presidents Jose Manuel Barroso and Herman Van Rompuy: ‘This is not a tax. This is EU theft by a fancy name.

‘I think gentlemen; the time has come to put your boots on for you are the grave-diggers of European democracy.’

Read more: Accept raid on savings or face ruin, Cyprus warned after hopes of Russia-led rescue are put on ice | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook ......


----------



## PeteandSylv

trev1234 said:


> In Brussels, EU chiefs came under fire for their ‘bullying’ of Cyprus. UKIP MEP Roger Helmer told EU Presidents Jose Manuel Barroso and Herman Van Rompuy: ‘This is not a tax. This is EU theft by a fancy name.
> 
> ‘I think gentlemen; the time has come to put your boots on for you are the grave-diggers of European democracy.’
> 
> Read more: Accept raid on savings or face ruin, Cyprus warned after hopes of Russia-led rescue are put on ice | Mail Online
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook ......


Quite an interesting article if you overlook the Mail's usual sensationalist style. What I read is the start of the cracks appearing in the EU possibly due to concern that after Cyprus there will be another German target. I don't think there is too much comfort with Germany's assumed power and I believe that the correctness of Cyprus rejecting the theft is now bearing fruit.

At least we are starting to see the Gas being mentioned. I was beginning to think I was the only one to see the vast potential of this as collateral or sharing.

But I suppose politicians being what they are, will have to build up to a grand melodramatic finale.

Pete


----------



## Veronica

I think that when it is all sorted out we will have a mixture of measures, including a watered down version of the bank levy, negotiations on the gas and the church dipping into their assets as well as some austerity measures such as tax rises etc.

As long as we can weather this storm we will be ok in the long run when the gas starts to flow.
What galls me is that a big part of the current problem has come about because Cyprus bought so many Greek bonds to help them out and the Eu also bailed them out but refuses to help us. 

The next few days will be interesting, if a bit scary for us all, waiting to see what will happen.


----------



## deks36

Personally I think that 99% of the world as a whole is living beyond its means
what icant get my head around is all this paper money that countries owe to other countries
maybe the whole wolrd should just draw a line under it and start again from scratch


----------



## PeteandSylv

deks36 said:


> Personally I think that 99% of the world as a whole is living beyond its means
> what icant get my head around is all this paper money that countries owe to other countries
> maybe the whole wolrd should just draw a line under it and start again from scratch


I think there maybe rather a lot of people in Africa that would disagree with your 99% statistic.

I'm not surprised you can't get your head around the world's financial working. It is an extremely complex subject that can be baffling. For example with so much debt that countries finance themselves on, where does the original money come from that is being borrowed? In fact "paper money" is just a promise to pay -- pay what?

The world cannot just draw a line under it and start from scratch. Germany would never agree!

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> I think there maybe rather a lot of people in Africa that would disagree with your 99% statistic.
> 
> I'm not surprised you can't get your head around the world's financial working. It is an extremely complex subject that can be baffling. For example with so much debt that countries finance themselves on, where does the original money come from that is being borrowed? In fact "paper money" is just a promise to pay -- pay what?
> 
> The world cannot just draw a line under it and start from scratch. Germany would never agree!
> 
> Pete


Germany take home all its gold that was stored in France. Wonder why?

But what I dont understand is why a thing like income tax is not discussed. Not raising it but start it from lower income level. Most of Europe starts at 8000 euro. Why is this so tabu?

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> But what I dont understand is why a thing like income tax is not discussed. Not raising it but start it from lower income level. Most of Europe starts at 8000 euro. Why is this so tabu?
> 
> Anders


The EU is demanding immediate funds and the revenue from income tax would be delayed.

On a more cynical note I would suggest the tax returns of all the lawyers, doctors, politicians and many other groups would indicate the answer. 

Pete


----------



## Guest

Dont really know how credible Cyprus Mail are but this article is interesting

In Cyprus standoff, Germany refuses to blink - Cyprus Mail

And I must share a new picture with you all to lighten up the mood


Anders


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> The EU is demanding immediate funds and the revenue from income tax would be delayed.
> 
> On a more cynical note I would suggest the tax returns of all the lawyers, doctors, politicians and many other groups would indicate the answer.
> 
> Pete


I don't know but I think that if things go wrong and default happen, the country that come out on the other side perhaps will be a better one. With steady income from gas, oil and tourist industry an not dependent on greedy bankers

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Dont really know how credible Cyprus Mail are but this article is interesting
> 
> In*Cyprus*standoff, Germany refuses to blink - Cyprus Mail
> 
> 
> Anders


A good and probably very accurate article. The opinion that Germany has of Cyprus is difficult to argue with. The previous Government consistently failed to improve infrastructure, invest in manufacturing and merely relied on selling the family jewels in the form of land and houses as well as tourism and financial deposits to survive. Undoubtedly the Idiot President overspent ludicrously because no-one is able to say where the Government money went.

However what is wrong is the German attitude that the article emphasises has now appeared. They are hell bent on destruction and/or oppression as the means to punish Cyprus which is an easy target for them. They have brought nothing constructive to the table and seek to use Cyprus as an example of how they wish to dominate and run Europe. This cannot go down well with much of the rest of the EU where there are weak and bailed out economies, as each of these countries will see themselves as the next German target for punishment.

Far better had they made specific demands for improvements with offers of practical assistance but unfortunately the nature of Merkel and the fact that politicians entrench themselves into their policies and rarely change as they are so egotistically convinced they are right.

I've also read several times that Merkel has support as the German taxpayers does not see why they should bail out countries that get themselves into trouble. I personally think this is rubbish because the German taxpayer has never been asked to pay a penny more in tax to create this support. It is therefore just a lame excuse to shift sympathy away from one of the basic commitments of a Union.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I don't know but I think that if things go wrong and default happen, the country that come out on the other side perhaps will be a better one. With steady income from gas, oil and tourist industry an not dependent on greedy bankers
> 
> Anders


That may be so in theory but in practice there is a population here who will lose their money, not be able to obtain any, cannot therefore buy food, will sit in the dark because they can't pay their electricity bills and can't flee the island because the fuel tanks feeding the planes will be empty if they can't buy fuel because no-one risks taking the newly printed money.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> That may be so in theory but in practice there is a population here who will lose their money, not be able to obtain any, cannot therefore buy food, will sit in the dark because they can't pay their electricity bills and can't flee the island because the fuel tanks feeding the planes will be empty if they can't buy fuel because no-one risks taking the newly printed money.
> 
> Pete


But as it stands now, this must be regarded as a possible outcome, horrible thought

Anders


----------



## Ovidia77

LiveLeak.com - This Is What Happens When A Journalist Forces A Banker To Actually Answer A Question

Nuff said


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> But as it stands now, this must be regarded as a possible outcome, horrible thought
> 
> Anders


While it certainly is a possible outcome I believe it is the least likely one.

If this were to happen a humiliated EU would be seen a having failed in it's intent and would be weaker for it. Protective action would occur causing a run on many banks while investment potential in much of the EU would vanish.

I am sure there are many negotiations going on behind the scenes particularly in the Russian scenario which has been all too quiet. Frankly the more I think about it the more I value a Russian rescue. Not only with regard to bringing forward the reality of the gas but also a Russian presence in the area, should they keep one in Cyprus, could be a great stabiliser against the biggest threat of the region which is Iran.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> While it certainly is a possible outcome I believe it is the least likely one.
> 
> If this were to happen a humiliated EU would be seen a having failed in it's intent and would be weaker for it. Protective action would occur causing a run on many banks while investment potential in much of the EU would vanish.
> 
> I am sure there are many negotiations going on behind the scenes particularly in the Russian scenario which has been all too quiet. Frankly the more I think about it the more I value a Russian rescue. Not only with regard to bringing forward the reality of the gas but also a Russian presence in the area, should they keep one in Cyprus, could be a great stabiliser against the biggest threat of the region which is Iran.
> 
> Pete


BBC News now

BBC News - Cyprus government 'to present bailout plan B on Thursday'

Anders


----------



## timouna01

Even though my idea didn't attract a lot of people, It wasn't so stupid as the governement is approving today a creation of fund where people can give money to collect the 5,8 bn !


----------



## kempo23

*IF* the volume of gas does exist, why aren't the Cypriot government using this as leverage in any bailout agreement? I am baffled as to why this is not being hightlighted, or is it because the gas is a pipe dream??


----------



## PeteandSylv

kempo23 said:


> *IF* the volume of gas does exist, why aren't the Cypriot government using this as leverage in any bailout agreement? I am baffled as to why this is not being hightlighted, or is it because the gas is a pipe dream??


I wish I could answer this as it is a key negotiating point and a huge potential advantage for Cyprus.

The gas field certainly does exist as reported by independent survey carried out by an American company, Noble Energy.

However getting this under way has proved difficulty for Cypriots to accomplish, hence the mess reported in : Cyprus Gas News
leading to my earlier comments of the exploitation of gas needing to be a jointly controlled venture.

Pete


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> *IF* the volume of gas does exist, why aren't the Cypriot government using this as leverage in any bailout agreement? I am baffled as to why this is not being hightlighted, or is it because the gas is a pipe dream??


I still think that the uncertainty is the problem. The estimate is 60 trillion cubic feet in total, but only 1 section is tested and it seem by news that more tests will be delayed because the platform is occupied in Israel. But if the estimated value of 475 billion euro is correct it would be a good collateral 


Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

timouna01 said:


> Even though my idea didn't attract a lot of people, It wasn't so stupid as the governement is approving today a creation of fund where people can give money to collect the 5,8 bn !


I presume you are referring to part of the new plan which the BBC reports:
_Cypriot officials now propose a state investment fund and special bond issue to raise 5.8bn euros._

Quite a far cry from the begging bowl you suggested but well done for taking the credit! 

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> I presume you are referring to part of the new plan which the BBC reports:
> _Cypriot officials now propose a state investment fund and special bond issue to raise 5.8bn euros._
> 
> Quite a far cry from the begging bowl you suggested but well done for taking the credit!
> 
> Pete


NEW: Government achieves consensus on Solidarity Fund
THE GOVERNMENT has achieved consensus on the setting up of an Investment Solidarity Fund in a bid to raise the required €5.8 billion that would unlock the EU/IMF’s €10 billion financial assistance package for Cyprus.

The creation of the Fund comes in the wake of parliament’s rejection of a controversial tax levy on banking deposits agreed by the Cypriot government and Eurogroup last Saturday.


----------



## NoEuro

PeteandSylv said:


> The gas field certainly does exist as reported by independent survey carried out by an American company, Noble Energy.
> 
> However getting this under way has proved difficulty for Cypriots to accomplish, hence the mess reported in : Cyprus Gas News
> leading to my earlier comments of the exploitation of gas needing to be a jointly controlled venture.


Judging by that article, Cyprus is in a mess over this issue too.

Cyprus needs a lot of money by Monday: Producton (and income) of gas is at the minimum a decade into the future. Today's 10 bill. is what it at least will cost to start producing (determine resources/build infrastructure, etc)..

Then comes the battle with Turkey: Who thinks that Turkey will sit still and simply watch Cyprus taking all the future income?

Cyprus has absolutely no competence in this field. They will need expertise from USA/Russia/Norway, who are the countries with the most expertise in this field.

And if they don't keep tight control, where will the money go? who's pockets?

Furthermore, USA is today an importer of gas. Within a few years, they will start to *export* enormous amounts of gas due to new reservoir technologies (shale gas). And prices are low and expected to fall.

Anyway, gas income is a long, long and expesive way away. But most of Cyprus' problems are *immediate* and must be solved *now*. We'll see what comes out of the voting for Plan B this afternoon. And what Plan B is...


----------



## timouna01

PeteandSylv said:


> I presume you are referring to part of the new plan which the BBC reports:
> Cypriot officials now propose a state investment fund and special bond issue to raise 5.8bn euros.
> 
> Quite a far cry from the begging bowl you suggested but well done for taking the credit!
> 
> Pete


Thats alright Pete your attacks does not touch me not even your black humour


----------



## PeteandSylv

timouna01 said:


> Thats alright Pete your attacks does not touch me not even your black humour


There's no attack at all. :confused2:

I'm pleased to see you put a smiley which suggests you might be developing a sense of humour.

Well done. :clap2:

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> There's no attack at all. :confused2:
> 
> I'm pleased to see you put a smiley which suggests you might be developing a sense of humour.
> 
> Well done. :clap2:
> 
> Pete


Any News? It is disturbingly quiet:confused2:

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Any News? It is disturbingly quiet:confused2:
> 
> Anders


My friend in Netherlands just asked the same question. I answered as follows:

_Over here there is no great news of importance to relay although I'm pleased to see the party leaders over here seem to actually be working together to produce plan B. They seem to be talking about a new state investment fund and nationalising the pension funds of the state industries (sounds a bit dangerous) while protecting deposits below €100k from any haircut. The word Russia seems to have dropped out of news items which suggests to me some negotiations are going on and may be at a critical stage. It might be a flight of fancy but I wonder if the government will thrash out a viable plan to present to the EU and if rejected will roll out the Russian solution._

Pete


----------



## Veronica

Everyone has been saying how brave Cyprus is to say no to the EU but nobody seems to have given a lot of thought to what might happen as a consequence.
If some solution isn't found by Monday they say the Laiki bank may never open again. So those of us who have all of our money in Laiki are in big poo.
Our business account, our current account and our savings accounts are all in Laiki.
Towards the beginning of this thread I said that I would be willing for a bit of my money to be taken if it helped to get the coutnry out of the mess it is in. Most people I have spoken to in the last few days said the same. But we were never asked, the government just put two fingers up to the EU and unless they sort something out very quickly a lot of people will lose everything.
I know that amount under 100k are suppposed to be protected but who pays it? If it is supposed to come from the central bank of cyprus do they even have enough? Whoever is supposed to pay it how long will it take to get it? What about the people who have young children and all of their money in the Laiki? Who will feed those children?
To be honest the whole thing is a flippin mess and I just hope that someone sees sense soon.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> Everyone has been saying how brave Cyprus is to say no to the EU but nobody seems to have given a lot of thought to what might happen as a consequence.
> If some solution isn't found by Monday they say the Laiki bank may never open again. So those of us who have all of our money in Laiki are in big poo.
> Our business account, our current account and our savings accounts are all in Laiki.
> Towards the beginning of this thread I said that I would be willing for a bit of my money to be taken if it helped to get the coutnry out of the mess it is in. Most people I have spoken to in the last few days said the same. But we were never asked, the government just put two fingers up to the EU and unless they sort something out very quickly a lot of people will lose everything.
> I know that amount under 100k are suppposed to be protected but who pays it? If it is supposed to come from the central bank of cyprus do they even have enough? Whoever is supposed to pay it how long will it take to get it? What about the people who have young children and all of their money in the Laiki? Who will feed those children?
> To be honest the whole thing is a flippin mess and I just hope that someone sees sense soon.


Hi Veronica!

Its no comfort but I think that this as much else is rumors. How much I dislike what is happening I cant get into my head that they ever will let some bank go bankrupt. The result would be a disaster. Not only for Cyprus but in all countries that has got bailout money before. Eu will loose all credibility and I don't believe they dare.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> Everyone has been saying how brave Cyprus is to say no to the EU but nobody seems to have given a lot of thought to what might happen as a consequence.
> If some solution isn't found by Monday they say the Laiki bank may never open again. So those of us who have all of our money in Laiki are in big poo.
> Our business account, our current account and our savings accounts are all in Laiki.
> Towards the beginning of this thread I said that I would be willing for a bit of my money to be taken if it helped to get the coutnry out of the mess it is in. Most people I have spoken to in the last few days said the same. But we were never asked, the government just put two fingers up to the EU and unless they sort something out very quickly a lot of people will lose everything.
> I know that amount under 100k are suppposed to be protected but who pays it? If it is supposed to come from the central bank of cyprus do they even have enough? Whoever is supposed to pay it how long will it take to get it? What about the people who have young children and all of their money in the Laiki? Who will feed those children?
> To be honest the whole thing is a flippin mess and I just hope that someone sees sense soon.


Actually I disagree. There has been quite a number of thoughts posted on this thread to what would happen if the theft was rejected and I believe I posted a real life scenario earlier.

I agree "we were never asked" but by what means could you have been asked particularly in the short time-scale the EU were demanding? This is what an elected government is for. The occasional referendums in the UK were only backside covering operations by politicians. In any case we ex-pats are not citizens here and therefore should not expect to be asked.

As in many negotiations there are times to call the bluff of the opposite party. That is what the government did and the immediate effect was a climb down from the rigid theft demand. I still believe the EU with the possible exception of Finland, Germany and the Netherlands cannot face the scenario of a country going bankrupt and the repercussions that would have.

Hold tight and be brave. If I'm wrong I'll be bugg*red too as I've money in Laiki!

Pete


----------



## jojo

Veronica said:


> Everyone has been saying how brave Cyprus is to say no to the EU but nobody seems to have given a lot of thought to what might happen as a consequence.
> If some solution isn't found by Monday they say the Laiki bank may never open again. So those of us who have all of our money in Laiki are in big poo.
> Our business account, our current account and our savings accounts are all in Laiki.
> Towards the beginning of this thread I said that I would be willing for a bit of my money to be taken if it helped to get the coutnry out of the mess it is in. Most people I have spoken to in the last few days said the same. But we were never asked, the government just put two fingers up to the EU and unless they sort something out very quickly a lot of people will lose everything.
> I know that amount under 100k are suppposed to be protected but who pays it? If it is supposed to come from the central bank of cyprus do they even have enough? Whoever is supposed to pay it how long will it take to get it? What about the people who have young children and all of their money in the Laiki? Who will feed those children?
> To be honest the whole thing is a flippin mess and I just hope that someone sees sense soon.


A sensible, real, "looking at the reality" post!! Oh and you're a mod too lol :tape:  

Jo xxx


----------



## Veronica

jojo said:


> A sensible, real, "looking at the reality" post!! Oh and you're a mod too lol :tape:
> 
> Jo xxx


:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


----------



## jojo

Veronica said:


> :boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


 LOL I am serious tho. It does sometimes seem that the "people power" and the reluctance to follow what the country desperately seems to need - albeit something it should have asked for first is shooting everyones lives in the foot. I dont know the answers, I dont know how on earth the EU can solve this mess, but everyone has to think about the consequences of sitting back and waiting for someone else to sort it. I know we didnt make the mess, but someone has to take the responsibility to clean it up and it has to be those who live in it right now.

What on earth will the streets be like if the Laiki bank doesnt ever open again is frightening to say the least - not just for those with their life savings in there, but for everyone

Jo xxx


----------



## Veronica

They say if the Laiki folds, the bank of Cyprus will close within 3 days as well.
we just have to hope that somehow, someone has the solution to this or it won't stop in Cyprus.


----------



## NoEuro

Well, it has been proven beyond any doubt by now that Germany has tried to be the boss of EU. To me, it seems they are about to fail. Not standing behind Cyprus is breaking most principles of the EU, IMHO. A solution must emerge; otherwise this wll have an unacceptable ripple effect throughout the whole EU Europe.

What a mess, and just because Germany misjudged the situation/strength of little Cyprus. I am sceptical about the near-time benefits of the gas reserves, but who knows? Maybe they can come in handy as a part of the play, after all?

The situatiion is much too grave to send all depositors into ruin. That will be completely unacceptable. But I can only feel for the people living in the unknowing right now. But again: I cannot believe that the worst will happen: It will be a total defeat for this "system".


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Well, it has been proven beyond any doubt by now that Germany has tried to be the boss of EU. To me, it seems they are about to fail. Not standing behind Cyprus is breaking most principles of the EU, IMHO. A solution must emerge; otherwise this wll have an unacceptable ripple effect throughout the whole EU Europe.
> 
> What a mess, and just because Germany misjudged the situation/strength of little Cyprus. I am sceptical about the near-time benefits of the gas reserves, but who knows? Maybe they can come in handy as a part of the play, after all?
> 
> The situatiion is much too grave to send all depositors into ruin. That will be completely unacceptable. But I can only feel for the people living in the unknowing right now. But again: I cannot believe that the worst will happen: It will be a total defeat for this "system".


And I cant believe that Russia would allow their countrymen to loose 30 billion or whatever they have in Cyprus. No way


----------



## Guest

Can this be the reason for gas security not accepted by EU?

NEW: Turkey may challenge Cypriot use of gas reserves in bailout - Cyprus Mail


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Can this be the reason for gas security not accepted by EU?
> 
> NEW: Turkey may challenge Cypriot use of gas reserves in bailout - Cyprus Mail


Possibly so but that would be a very weak minded and inadequate excuse.

Turkey was whinging about Cyprus drilling for oil and even sent a boat out to explore for its own reserves north of the island.

But how could the EU ever consider a Turkish claim on waters south of Cyprus when the Turkish claim to the land they have occupied is not recognised by the UN or the EU?

I believe it to be just the usual Turkish noise but could be used as a negotiating point should sensible talks ever resume between Cyprus and Turkey.

Pete


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> And I cant believe that Russia would allow their countrymen to loose 30 billion or whatever they have in Cyprus. No way


Precisely what I am thinking too... Some guys in "high places" have a *lot* of money in Cyprus...



Vegaanders said:


> Can this be the reason for gas security not accepted by EU?
> 
> NEW: Turkey may challenge Cypriot use of gas reserves in bailout - Cyprus Mail


As I said a little earlier: Turkey will not let money slip away under their noses: This is partly why profiting from the gas reserves will take a long time and battle to realise...


----------



## NoEuro

Latest news:

According to TV here (Norway), Laika will be sacrifised. Furious employees are demonstrating outside the bank, they say.

Very sorry for all inflicted, if this is true.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> Latest news:
> 
> According to TV here (Norway), Laika will be sacrifised. Furious employees are demonstrating outside the bank, they say.
> 
> Very sorry for all inflicted, if this is true.


Not a word in Cyprus mail or from Central Bank. Only that they will save Popular bank. Why disaster will happen if that go down and not if Laike go down

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Thats very confusing as as the popular bank of Cyprus and Laiki are one and the same.
So are they going to save it or sacrifice it?


----------



## NoEuro

Veronika,

what I heard was that one of the 2 major banks would be sacrifised (didn't say why) and the name Laika and its employees was named.

This is what I heard, but let's not draw hastily conclusions. I know and understand your situaton. & need to know, but this is all I have heard right now. Will check other news.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> Thats very confusing as as the popular bank of Cyprus and Laiki are one and the same.
> So are they going to save it or sacrifice it?


Central bank say that Popular bank will be saved

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/


----------



## NoEuro

What an appropriate name for the Central Bank Governor:

"CYPRUS will take measures to consolidate its banking sector, including steps to avoid bankruptcy at its second largest lender, Popular Bank , Central Bank Governor Panicos Demetriades said on Thursday."


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## Veronica

A report I have jsut been reading suggests that deposits under 100'000 as well as good loans and other assets will be transferred from the popluar bank(Laiki) to the Bank of Cyprus. The deposits over 100.000 and bad loans etc will remain with with the Popular bank.
This is in effect a merging of the two banks with the popular bank having the toxic assets while the Bank of Cyprus has the good assets. 

Just another of the many different stories which are emerging. We probably won't know the full truth for a few more days.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> A report I have jsut been reading suggests that deposits under 100'000 as well as good loans and other assets will be transferred from the popluar bank(Laiki) to the Bank of Cyprus. The deposits over 100.000 and bad loans etc will remain with with the Popular bank.
> This is in effect a merging of the two banks with the popular bank having the toxic assets while the Bank of Cyprus has the good assets.
> 
> Just another of the many different stories which are emerging. We probably won't know the full truth for a few more days.


But interesting. This had been done in US and probably also in some poor EU country. Handle all bad business in one bank

Anders


----------



## Veronica

I don't see how any of this will solve the problem of the bail out though


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> I don't see how any of this will solve the problem of the bail out though


As I understand they will also take the bad loans from Cyprus Bank and put them in Popular. Then they create 1 good bank and 1 bad. Perhaps they then can sacrifice that bad one. But I am not a bank expert but US did this


----------



## Veronica

The awful thing is that if this does happen innocent people will still lose out if they have more than 100k.
We know an accountant who has been saving for years to buy a house so that he didnt have to saddle himself with a mortgage. He has over 200K in the Laiki bank and if this happens he stand to lose a lot of money and will have to start saving again. He had just started to actually look for a house. How many more people will there be like him?

I still think that it would have been much fairer to go with the original deal where we all paid a proportion.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> The awful thing is that if this does happen innocent people will still lose out if they have more than 100k.
> We know an accountant who has been saving for years to buy a house so that he didnt have to saddle himself with a mortgage. He has over 200K in the Laiki bank and if this happens he stand to lose a lot of money and will have to start saving again. He had just started to actually look for a house. How many more people will there be like him?
> 
> I still think that it would have been much fairer to go with the original deal where we all paid a proportion.


Whatever they do some people will get hurt.


----------



## Strovolian

Evening all

It's 9 pm Cyprus time and no one knows anything definite!

I can offer nothing new on the banking situation other than they may all open next Tuesday to allow people to withdraw fixed amounts to cover living expenses rather than empty whole of their account contents. 

There may be an issue of bonds/shares in the mining operation for Cypriots and others to buy in to. Likelihood is that this would be heavily subscribed to by Cypriots worldwide - not in the expectation of quick profits, but if you have ever seen the Cypriot attitude to children you will understand that mining profits years in the future would be acceptable to the majority because their children will benefit.

Bubbling away underneath all this is the Turkish invasion of 1974. Cypriots have never - and in my opinion will never - agree to recognising Turkey's theft of half of the island. Whilst Europe may want a solution to this there is only one that Cypriots will accept - their island back. There is a strong belief that troika's future demands, having weakened Cypriot economy further, will be to say more money is conditional on giving away half the land. This will never be accepted.

To avoid the above people here would accept/welcome Russian military base and mining involvement. If Russia doesn't want it they may well look for another way to survive.

MPs are currently voting on President's latest plan. If I hear anything I will post later.

Before telling me I am wrong in any of the above statements - please note the number of times I had to use 'may'. It's been a very thin day for solid news.


----------



## Guest

One theory imo is that Russia might exploit the gas along side having a naval base in return for funding the banking crises..Putin will still be smarting over the Turks controlling the Russian Aeroflot plane to land whilst on route to Syria with (spare parts) ...Russia will keep the peace in the area as the EU is incapable of that if Turkey were to dispute the gas fields with Cyprus... all in my humble opinion of course.....


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> One theory imo is that Russia might exploit the gas along side having a naval base in return for funding the banking crises..Putin will still be smarting over the Turks controlling the Russian Aeroflot plane to land whilst on route to Syria with (spare parts) ...Russia will keep the peace in the area as the EU is incapable of that if Turkey were to dispute the gas fields with Cyprus... all in my humble opinion of course.....


I really hope that the Syrian crises is over when a naval base can be operational. And Turkey still want to be close to EU so I think they will keep in line about the gas. Some part of profit to the north yes, but not more.

For a Russian naval base, US and UK will be a bigger problem


----------



## NoEuro

Strovolian,

I tend to agree completely with you.

As for a naval base, I see it quite simple. Just throw out the non-paying Brits and let Russia hire it long-term. Easy: The Brits, EU or NATO do not have the balls (or the rights, IMHO) to ignore Cyprus' own decisions anymore.

What a coup for Russia, unknowingly offered by Germany & the (silent) EU bunch. How can politicians be so stupid?

Ahhh, sorry: forgot: They *are* stupid.  Sorry for my disrespect, but it is well deserved, IMHO.

For now, I just hope that common people's money (be it Cypriots or expats in Cyprus) will be saved from this lunatic behaviour.

EDIT: Have you noticed the silence from the rest of the EU community? Tragic. Not many friends there, it seems. Just another reason for Cyprus to use the balls they obviously have...


----------



## Strovolian

Just been reported on one of Cyprus TV channels - USA would like to cover whole cost of bail out in exchange for oil rights!

Meanwhile parliament is still in session.

If it wasn't such a tragedy this would make a great soap opera.


----------



## Guest

Strovolian said:


> Just been reported on one of Cyprus TV channels - USA would like to cover whole cost of bail out in exchange for oil rights!
> 
> Meanwhile parliament is still in session.
> 
> If it wasn't such a tragedy this would make a great soap opera.


So US would lend money from Beijing then. They hardly don't have themselfs


----------



## Veronica

I'm getting a headache


----------



## Strovolian

Vegaanders said:


> So US would lend money from Beijing then. They hardly don't have themselfs


Seems so - mind you Cyprus has been targeting China as the next source of tourists so perhaps they won't mind indirectly funding the place.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> I'm getting a headache


Probably more then you have the same problem in Cyprus tonight:spit:


----------



## Veronica

Strovolian said:


> Seems so - mind you Cyprus has been targeting China as the next source of tourists so perhaps they won't mind indirectly funding the place.


No No its not tourism they are tagetingthem for. Its to sell them all the unsold apartments and villas the developers can't sell to anyone else.


----------



## NoEuro

So USA is also going for the kill...: I cincerely hope they (Cyprus) keep the US out of it: Russia is much more friendly, IMHO. For too long, Russia has been projected as the big wolf towards Europe. Maybe they are our best friends in dire straits? Hwo attacked Russia? Several times? Europe (Germany/France).

This coming from a former soldier in NATO, having patroled the borders of Soviet on skis and having been scaringly closer to the iron Curtain war than any of you...

IMHO, Russia seems much more friendly than the EU.


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> So USA is also going for the kill...: I cincerely hope they (Cyprus) keep the US out of it: Russia is much more friendly, IMHO. For too long, Russia has been projected as the big wolf towards Europe. Maybe they are our best friends in dire straits? Hwo attacked Russia? Several times? Europe (Germany/France).
> 
> This coming from a former soldier in NATO, having patroled the borders of Soviet on skis and having been scaringly closer to the iron Curtain war than any of you...
> 
> IMHO, Russia seems much more friendly than the EU.


We had a Russian Sub in our backyard, Stranded but real U137


----------



## Guest

NoEuro said:


> So USA is also going for the kill...: I cincerely hope they (Cyprus) keep the US out of it: Russia is much more friendly, IMHO. For too long, Russia has been projected as the big wolf towards Europe. Maybe they are our best friends in dire straits? Hwo attacked Russia? Several times? Europe (Germany/France).
> 
> This coming from a former soldier in NATO, having patroled the borders of Soviet on skis and having been scaringly closer to the iron Curtain war than any of you...
> 
> IMHO, Russia seems much more friendly than the EU.


Hi Norwegian, what do you think about the good bank - bad bank scenario?


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> We had a Russian Sub in our backyard, Stranded but real U137


I know: It was a sub of the Soviet Whisky class; When it stranded in the Swedish skjærgård (inland islands) of Sweden it was nicknamed "Whisky on the rocks" 

But today, the cold war is over, and as it seems, Russia is a better friend than Germany and her cheerleaders (not surprising in "my" world). I am just so disappointed by the way Germany (foremost) and the rest of the EU (silence) is behaving towards a little member.

But I actually believe that David will beat Goliat, once more. I hope.


----------



## NoEuro

Vegaanders said:


> Hi Norwegian, what do you think about the good bank - bad bank scenario?


I am not sure, Anders, but judging by the press, a bank run towards safety in Norw. banks is likely to occur.

Money will now be poured out of Cyprus due to the uncertainty that has been created: And quite unneccessary, IMHO. So also for the southern countries of Europe, methinks. Strongly. What s more serious: Banks in Portugal/Spain/Italy et al will now see a bank run: The painting on the wall is all too clear. Sad.

Back to Norway: After all, we are "The Arabs of Europe" and our economy is powered by other interests than the rest of Europe. Frankly, we don't give a damn: We are outside the Euro Zone and have our own economy. We trust our own economy, separated from the Euro (Thank God) and we take care of our own money:

Here is an illustration of what we earn each day (only in interests/share increase-decrease): It fluktuates up and down, but mind you: This is only profit/loss returns from our investments, *not* daily oil/gas income, which is, after all, our main income: The rest (this) is just addon. And the trend is steadily upwards: About 100 bill. NOK. up the last 30 days on our funds, only. 

NBIM - NBIM

The oil/gas income, is of course manyfold higher, and must be added to the economic growth- The figures are difficult to calculate, but they are large. We have a hard time realising the total income/day, actually.

But if Cyprus follows the Norw. savings model as described above (Canada is trying/wanting to implement it right now), they may be very rich in 15-20 years time.


----------



## NoEuro

I just have the number: As I understand it, Russia has 63 bill. Euros in Cypriotic banks: No way will that be thrown overboard,

What a thriller.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> I just have the number: As I understand it, Russia has 63 bill. Euros in Cypriotic banks: No way will that be thrown overboard,
> 
> What a thriller.



I think that figure equates to the *total *deposits in Cypriot Banks. 

Around 50% is attributable to Russia. I agree though, that Russia is not willing to lose 3bn to EU demands.


----------



## NoEuro

I cincerely hope and believe that this is a battle that Cyprus will win, and that the EU will lose. I admire the present government of Cyprus, and I admire the people involved, Cypriots as well as expats living there.

I strongly suspect that in all the silence from the rest of the EU (Have you not wondered why: Not a word from the rest of the "community": All paralyzed by Germany?), Cyprus will be backed by countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and even France, all of them countries that could fall into the same extortion trap as Cyprus.

I hope that many now have had their eyes opened to the threat of Germany. This danger has never been more clear and present than it is today. And these are not my words, just the words of a unified European press...

I have been reluctant to the idea of EU/Euro for some time; but I never thought it would come to this...


----------



## davidogden

Cyprus is shutting the escape door my introducing currency controls this means the bulk of the money now in Cyprus banks can only be spent in Cyprus including to 30 BN russian money.

Cyprus could dump the Euro yes fuel imports would become more expensive but the expat population including 60 thuosand brits would find thier money would buy more and could even continue to buy from Marks and Spencers. Investment money will start to flow in and and the CP would start to strenghrn. A bit simplistic but it would work and


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> Can this be the reason for gas security not accepted by EU?


Having gas reserves is one thing. Actually marketing the gas to anywhere other than a domestic market is another. 

A pipeline to the EU from Cyprus is is prohibitively expensive. The cost of turning the gas to liquid for shipping is also cost prohibitive (Estimated to be €20bn whilst Morgan Stanley estimates the actual value of the reserves to be anywhere between €5bn and €32bn)

It appears that Gazprom, if interested, will invest money just to to keep the gas in the ground. This will allow them to continue to charge Europe the currently exorbitant rates it gets, and they have no shortage of gas or buyers.


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> It appears that Gazprom, if interested, will invest money just to to keep the gas in the ground. This will allow them to continue to charge Europe the currently exorbitant rates it gets, and they have no shortage of gas or buyers.


You actually have a saddening, correct point. As I said earlier, Russia have closed down their biggest gas field (Stockman) in the Barents Sea for the next 30 years due to failing profits because of low gas prices. Norway had expected to develop it in a joint venture with Russia, but, no...

And we (the gas producing countries) are warmly welcoming it. The sad fact is that gas prices are going down, and will continue to do so. Which will make the Cyprus resources rather irrelevant, I think, But we will see. First they have to negotiate the Turkey share. And they will have to. TRney want their "fair" share.

This is truly a mess. And don't count on the gas for an easy bailout: It is only gas...


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Having gas reserves is one thing. Actually marketing the gas to anywhere other than a domestic market is another.
> 
> A pipeline to the EU from Cyprus is is prohibitively expensive. The cost of turning the gas to liquid for shipping is also cost prohibitive (Estimated to be €20bn whilst Morgan Stanley estimates the actual value of the reserves to be anywhere between €5bn and €32bn)
> 
> It appears that Gazprom, if interested, will invest money just to to keep the gas in the ground. This will allow them to continue to charge Europe the currently exorbitant rates it gets, and they have no shortage of gas or buyers.


The Nobel Company that have the exploration rights estimate the value to 475 Billion so its disputed how much it is worth. However the infrastructure will cost 10 billion to build so I dont believe Morgan Stanley is right. If they were no gas would be produced


----------



## Guest

davidogden said:


> Cyprus is shutting the escape door my introducing currency controls this means the bulk of the money now in Cyprus banks can only be spent in Cyprus including to 30 BN russian money.
> 
> Cyprus could dump the Euro yes fuel imports would become more expensive but the expat population including 60 thuosand brits would find thier money would buy more and could even continue to buy from Marks and Spencers. Investment money will start to flow in and and the CP would start to strenghrn. A bit simplistic but it would work and


I can only say I dont believe you. For sure the expat community could not fead the country, whatever pensions they bring. Its just foolish to think like that.

Anders


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> First they have to negotiate the Turkey share. And they will have to. TRney want their "fair" share.


But Turkey are not entitled to a share if the gas is extracted from Cypriot Territorial waters...


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> But Turkey are not entitled to a share if the gas is extracted from Cypriot Territorial waters...


That you have to take up with the Turks but I think they mean the profit should be shared with North Cyprus. And ofc they can be right


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> The Nobel Company that have the exploration rights estimate the value to 475 Billion so its disputed how much it is worth.


In the words of the prophet - "They would say that, wouldn't they?"

The fact that the gas is there is indisputable. How much is there depends on who you are talking to...


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> In the words of the prophet - "They would say that, wouldn't they?"
> 
> Th fact that the gas is there is indisputable. How much is there depends on who you are talking to.


It will show quite soon anyway so we have to wait and see


----------



## NoEuro

I think we should leave the gas dscussion. We are talking about a solution next Monday, and that is not gas. Gas is *possible* income in 15-20 years. That is a hard fact.

I have, however, the belief that Cyprus will prove to be a proof of the EU collapsing. I am waiting for other plagued contries to stand up beside them. So far, they are horribly scared by the behaviour of Germany towards Cyprus. But when the fear diasppears; what will happen then?

This is champagne, and the cork is not yet even out of the bottleneck.

Interesting times: Who will be the first EU country to set its foot down and command a new guidance for the leadership? Or will you continue to be harassed by one agressive country? Personally: Frankly I do not care: In my opinon, the EU is more or less history already.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> That you have to take up with the Turks but I think they mean the profit should be shared with North Cyprus. And ofc they can be right


Of course Turkish Cypriots should beneift from the wealth of a *united *RoC, but how could you possibly give a share of that wealth to them via an illegal occupying force?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> In my opinon, the EU is more or less history already.


I agree with the sentiment, but am unsure how this will pan out. There are multitudes in the UK who wish to leave the EU - and I am amongst them. When we were last given a referendum, we agreed to economic union through a free market. What others (Germany and France) wanted was political union. They have been getting closer to that goal but alienated many countries along the way.


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> I agree with the sentiment, but am unsure how this will pan out. There are multitudes in the UK who wish to leave the EU - and I am amongst them. When we were last given a referendum, we agreed to economic union through a free market. What others (Germany and France) wanted was political union. They have been getting closer to that goal but alienated many countries along the way.


So what were you getting: or believed you got...

I stand by my view, conspiracy theory or not, as I have been accused of, that this is the best possibility ever for Germany to take European control. But this is only me and my opinion. 3rd WW; but this time with money and politics. The two previous attempts using weapons failed. Now it seems they fail again, because Cyprus, against all odds, turned them down. I truly salute the Cypriots in this matter. I am actually wiilling to move to Cyprus simply in order to fight this. Just offer me a bed and I'll be there. Seriously.

But you have to judge for yourself.

I am "impressed" by the fact that while Cyprus is being "raped", not one single European country is protesting: Don't they understand that it may be them the next time, or don't they dare to speak out? It reminds me of a Brit named Chamberlain: "Peace in our time"....


----------



## David_&_Letitia

NoEuro said:


> So what were you getting: or believed you got...


Fish quotas - throw perfectly good, but undersized or 'wrong type' of fish back into the sea.

Milk lakes and butter mountains - keep prices high at all costs by storing the excess to suppress supplies.

Inefficiency - helping French farmers to grow unwanted crops.

Bureacracy - In a time of austerity, increase the EU budgets.

Uneven 'partnership' - Germany and France, Germany and France, Germany and France (how many members of the EU have a say other than Germany and France?)

Diktats - Endless, pointless and tiresome.

Bullying - naional referendums say 'No' to the EU? - have another one until you get the right result.

Etc etc etc


----------



## NoEuro

David_&_Letitia said:


> Uneven 'partnership' - Germany and France, Germany and France, Germany and France (how many members of the EU have a say other than Germany and France?


I am Listening all the time: I do not hear a word  I try to read: Cannot find a word...

Seems you are right...

You won in 1941 - you lose in 2013...


----------



## Geraldine

Woke up this morning, looked out at this wonderful country and felt overwhemingly sad for her.


----------



## MartynKSA

Anyone else noticed how silent the Chines are in all this? Which makes this comment interesting:

""Newly minted Chinese President Xi Jinping is expected to push for increased oil and gas supplies from Russia and reaffirm warm bilateral ties on a three-day visit to Moscow beginning on Friday.
The trip, Xi's first international stop as president, will include meetings with President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and could see as many as 30 agreements signed, mostly in the energy sector.""

Cyprus overhauls two biggest banks to stave off collapse - Telegraph


----------



## MartynKSA

Geraldine said:


> Woke up this morning, looked out at this wonderful country and felt overwhemingly sad for her.


My wife has been saying exactly the same. I'm due in next Tuesday from KSA- hopefully all will be resolved by then, one way or another. The possibilty of the worst case scenario occuring is too dire to contemplate for Cyprus/Europe/the World, for all the reasons already discussd on this forum.

Let's all hope common sense will prevail with ALL Politicians, but there hasn't been a lot of that around for some time ANYWHERE


----------



## Guest

MartynKSA said:


> Anyone else noticed how silent the Chines are in all this? Which makes this comment interesting:
> 
> ""Newly minted Chinese President Xi Jinping is expected to push for increased oil and gas supplies from Russia and reaffirm warm bilateral ties on a three-day visit to Moscow beginning on Friday.
> The trip, Xi's first international stop as president, will include meetings with President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev and could see as many as 30 agreements signed, mostly in the energy sector.""
> 
> Cyprus overhauls two biggest banks to stave off collapse - Telegraph


I can only say that I don't believe for one second that the government will propose a 40% haircut on deposits over 100k. And Russia will never allow it


----------



## Guest

If Cyprus falls into Putin's grip, the West will have lost the first battle in the new Cold War | Mail Online ..........sensationalism or not the EU must be fully aware of what will happen...or do they want this to happen.... do the EU want another cold war....the mind boggles at the inept bureaucrats that are vastly over paid for being under intelligent...


----------



## MartynKSA

trev1234 said:


> If Cyprus falls into Putin's grip, the West will have lost the first battle in the new Cold War | Mail Online ..........sensationalism or not the EU must be fully aware of what will happen...or do they want this to happen.... do the EU want another cold war....the mind boggles at the inept bureaucrats that are vastly over paid for being under intelligent...


Really interesting article

Another thought- the Yanks are very conspicuous by their lack of comment?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> I can only say that I don't believe for one second that the government will propose a 40% haircut on deposits over 100k. And Russia will never allow it


Who knows for sure? I really hope that Cyprus can find a way out of this mess.

But one thing is certain - banks should not be too big to fail. Banks in all countries (including the UK) cannot expect to be constantly bailed out, whether by IMF, ECB or national Central Banks. It's hard to see how Laiki can survive the confidence issue now - not just of it's depositors, but also of the ECB.


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Who knows for sure? I really hope that Cyprus can find a way out of this mess.
> 
> But one thing is certain - banks should not be too big to fail. Banks in all countries (including the UK) cannot expect to be constantly bailed out, whether by IMF, ECB or national Central Banks. It's hard to see how Laiki can survive the confidence issue now - not just of it's depositors, but also of the ECB.


I agree fully. About Laike it seems that it will be sacrificed but used as a Bad bank for toxic assets. But first the deposits will be moved to Cyprus bank. And Cyprus Bank toxic **** will be moved to Laike

But still this is not confirmed yet, only rumors


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> If Cyprus falls into Putin's grip, the West will have lost the first battle in the new Cold War | Mail Online ..........sensationalism or not the EU must be fully aware of what will happen...or do they want this to happen.... do the EU want another cold war....the mind boggles at the inept bureaucrats that are vastly over paid for being under intelligent...


100 % crap. Someone is still afraid of the Russian bear. They must have had a looong winter sleep


----------



## Veronica

trev1234 said:


> If Cyprus falls into Putin's grip, the West will have lost the first battle in the new Cold War | Mail Online ..........sensationalism or not the EU must be fully aware of what will happen...or do they want this to happen.... do the EU want another cold war....the mind boggles at the inept bureaucrats that are vastly over paid for being under intelligent...


If Europe don't want Russia to get a grip of Cyrus and a foothold into the West then maybe they should stop bullying Cyprus and help to save it.
They can't have their cake and eat it.


----------



## PeteandSylv

trev1234 said:


> If Cyprus falls into Putin's grip, the West will have lost the first battle in the new Cold War | Mail Online ..........sensationalism or not the EU must be fully aware of what will happen...or do they want this to happen.... do the EU want another cold war....the mind boggles at the inept bureaucrats that are vastly over paid for being under intelligent...


The Daily Mail has sunk to a new low with this inaccurately interpreted, grossly exaggerated and openly prejudiced article produced by a man whose only purpose is to sell more of his book advertised at the end.

There are no grounds for suggesting another cold war, an invention of the USA following their ridiculous witch-hunts for communists all those years ago when the threat of communism was a real danger.

What the article does not contemplate is the advantage of unity with Russia when dealing with the real threat to world peace which may come from Iran. In fact the only vaguely accurate part is in reference to Idiot Christofias. For example I could ask where all the casinos he mentions are in Cyprus. The only ones I know of are in the North in the land stolen by Turkey a country he seems to be sympathetic towards.

A pointless, misleading and damaging article from which no conclusions should be drawn.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

Just to lighten the mood:​


----------



## deks36

According to the BBC in the UK this morning NO DEAL could be done with Russia

from someone who doesnt really understand politics to well, I would say that means 
Russia doesnt care as much about is countrymens 30Billion as much as people think 
or more likely they wanted to rape the Cypriots as much as the EU did


----------



## PeteandSylv

The current report from the BBC has the following:

_Eurogroup chairman Jeroen Dijsselbloem told the European Parliament he doubted a "Plan B" was really possible - and he partially defended the original idea of a levy on deposits, saying "alternatives would have made Cyprus' debt unsustainable"._

Next to this are the graphics showing that with the bailout Cyprus debt to GDP ratio would be 57%. It also shows the Greece debt to GDP from the 2012 bailout as 67.1%.

As it was the Greek banks haircut that exacerbated the problem for the Cyprus banks I see this as another high in EU hypocrisy.

Pete


----------



## Guest

deks36 said:


> According to the BBC in the UK this morning NO DEAL could be done with Russia
> 
> from someone who doesnt really understand politics to well, I would say that means
> Russia doesnt care as much about is countrymens 30Billion as much as people think
> or more likely they wanted to rape the Cypriots as much as the EU did


We will see what happens. Rumors in Uk is no truth

Anders


----------



## Purplecat

BBC News - Cyprus MPs due to vote on new plan to secure bailout


----------



## Mycroft

I find it quite interesting that Greece has been very quiet in recent days. Perhaps the Greek Cypriot love affair with all things Greek is one sided. The vote in Parliament has been delayed until later this afternoon. Let us hope that sense prevails.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Mycroft said:


> I find it quite interesting that Greece has been very quiet in recent days. Perhaps the Greek Cypriot love affair with all things Greek is one sided. The vote in Parliament has been delayed until later this afternoon. Let us hope that sense prevails.


I have no doubt and have always said that the Greek Cypriot obsession with Greece is one of the things holding this country back. Greece has never done anything for Cyprus.

If you look back you will find a thread on this with Kimonas contributing a detailed explanation for the phenomenon.

Pete


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## dave22

Frau Merlke dictating yet again on Bloomberg TV saying that Cyprus will do as the EU says
Previous Chancellors of Germany have fallen in previous years for not keeping there mouths shut


----------



## dave22

The Uk dont send untruths out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Guest

Four days to save Cyprus: Politicians due to vote on new plan to secure bailout before Monday deadline | Mail Online .............. interesting few days ahead....not being on the street so to speak we have only forums and newspapers/rags to get our news to know what is right and what is wrong.......i am sure that a few of us who are planning a move to Cyprus are more than concerned at what is happening over there....good luck.....


----------



## paul44

dave22 said:


> Frau Merlke dictating yet again on Bloomberg TV saying that Cyprus will do as the EU says
> Previous Chancellors of Germany have fallen in previous years for not keeping there mouths shut


We might just as well all learn German she really is one obnoxious person!


----------



## PeteandSylv

trev1234 said:


> Four days to save Cyprus: Politicians due to vote on new plan to secure bailout before Monday deadline | Mail Online .............. interesting few days ahead....not being on the street so to speak we have only forums and newspapers/rags to get our news to know what is right and what is wrong.......i am sure that a few of us who are planning a move to Cyprus are more than concerned at what is happening over there....good luck.....


Nothing new there. Just the usual Mail regurgitating in it's over sensationalised way.

Personally I wouldn't soil my backside with that dreadful paper. 

Pete


----------



## Alpujarran

*Capital controls*

Those capital control proposals


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Nothing new there. Just the usual Mail regurgitating in it's over sensationalised way.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't soil my backside with that dreadful paper.
> 
> Pete


'It's not about the size, it's about the presentation': Nightclub criticised for offering free entry to women who expose their cleavage | Mail Online ............awww come on it ain't all that bad lol...


----------



## Guest

trev1234 said:


> 'It's not about the size, it's about the presentation': Nightclub criticised for offering free entry to women who expose their cleavage | Mail Online ............awww come on it ain't all that bad lol...


It seems to that this is the house paper for trev 1234. For me it could only be used as toilet paper if it was in paper format.
It seems that UK have a lot of this press. News of the world comes in mind also.

Anders


----------



## paul44

The Daily Mail is nothing short of being a comic thankfully The News Of The World is no more although I did like its football coverage!

If everyone took notice of the junk in the mail we'd all be heading for the hills acting like Ray Mears in his survival programs!!!!!


----------



## PeteandSylv

The BBC has laid out a good article detailing what it sees as the 4 scenarios that can happen.

Cyprus crisis: What happens next?

While they report that hopes of Russian have faded I wonder if in the case of EU abandonment of Cyprus the Russians will step in at the 11th hour.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> The BBC has laid out a good article detailing what it sees as the 4 scenarios that can happen.
> 
> Cyprus crisis: What happens next?
> 
> While they report that hopes of Russian have faded I wonder if in the case of EU abandonment of Cyprus the Russians will step in at the 11th hour.
> 
> Pete


I see it as strange if they really want to flush 30 billion or so down the toilet if they instead could help. perhaps Merkel is involved


----------



## Guest

Vegaanders said:


> It seems to that this is the house paper for trev 1234. For me it could only be used as toilet paper if it was in paper format.
> It seems that UK have a lot of this press. News of the world comes in mind also.
> 
> Anders


Anders.... please don't bring the integrity of the forum down to your level by casting aspersions............anyway it looks like plan A is back on the agenda Cyprus bail-out: live - Telegraph


----------



## kempo23

Maybe most of the Russian money is 'dodgy'


----------



## PeteandSylv

The latest information seems to imply that deleting Laiki from the scene by merging it's accounts elsewhere will provide €2.3bn leaving €3.5 bn to be found.

This is only to be found because the EU insist it is so. This relatively small amount could be added onto the bailout amount from the EU with no hardship to the EU or the poor hard done by German taxpayers.

When negotiating there should be give and take on both sides until a solution is found. A little more give on the EU side could provide for a more sensible solution.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

Another solid analysis this time from Paul Mason not showing Germany in the best light.

Cypriot crisis: Will Germany's tough stance backfire?

Pete


----------



## Veronica

Has anyone seen this?


----------



## Veronica

Hmm dosnt come up very big when opened
Its very interesting


----------



## Geraldine

Wow! How interesting, and generous!


----------



## Veronica

Did you manage to bring it up big enough to read?


----------



## Guest

if indeed the gas and oil does belong to Cyprus without hindrance from Turkey, then i too would like to buy shares in the off shore gas and oil fields .. maybe Cyprus could float them on the relevent stock market ...


----------



## Geraldine

Veronica said:


> Did you manage to bring it up big enough to read?


got the magnifying glass on it!


----------



## Veronica

geraldine said:


> got the magnifying glass on it!



:d:d:d


----------



## Guest

Cyprus bailout: President Nikos Anastasiades 'warned friends to move money abroad' | Mail Online ......WARNING DO NOT READ THIS ONLINE NEWSPAPER IF IT OFFENDS YOU..YOU HAVE THE CHOICE AT YOUR FINGERTIPS ..


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Shares in Piraeus have leapt by 20% today after confirming it is buying the Greek-based units of Bank of Cyprus and Laiki Bank.


----------



## Veronica

trev1234 said:


> Cyprus bailout: President Nikos Anastasiades 'warned friends to move money abroad' | Mail Online ......WARNING DO NOT READ THIS ONLINE NEWSPAPER IF IT OFFENDS YOU..YOU HAVE THE CHOICE AT YOUR FINGERTIPS ..


He must have an awful lot of very close, very rich friends for them to move 4.5 billion out.
Just another load of rubbish from the mail online.


----------



## Alpujarran

Trust the Mail to be behind:
"Depositors with more than €100,000 in Cypriot banks – Russian or not – will undoubtedly have done all they can to remove it by now."

*March 6th* 2013 euromoney

And that was a week after the memo was leaked.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> Hmm dosnt come up very big when opened
> Its very interesting


Quite moving and generous if it is not a fake.

I presume the guy must own the hotel but why use that address if he publishes his phone details and email? Does this millionaire really live at this cheapy hotel? He doesn't get any hits on Google even for his phone.

Pete


----------



## Geraldine

PeteandSylv said:


> Quite moving and generous if it is not a fake.
> 
> I presume the guy must own the hotel but why use that address if he publishes his phone details and email? Does this millionaire really live at this cheapy hotel? He doesn't get any hits on Google even for his phone.
> 
> Pete


a poor joke if not kosher.


----------



## Veronica

I must admit to wondering whether it is genuine or not. But if not what would anyone have to gain by it?
I must say it would be lovely to think that maybe there are enough people out there willing to give a bit here and a bit there to raise the money needed to get the country out of its mess.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> I must admit to wondering whether it is genuine or not. But if not what would anyone have to gain by it?
> I must say it would be lovely to think that maybe there are enough people out there willing to give a bit here and a bit there to raise the money needed to get the country out of its mess.


You have to ask the same question of the hundreds of other scam and fake messages that circulate the internet often reappearing every few years.

There's nothing to be gained by them but unfortunately the world is full of pratts and they're not all politicians!!!

Pete


----------



## Veronica

PeteandSylv said:


> You have to ask the same question of the hundreds of other scam and fake messages that circulate the internet often reappearing every few years.
> 
> There's nothing to be gained by them but unfortunately the world is full of pratts and they're not all politicians!!!
> 
> Pete


Thats very true


----------



## Veronica

The lates report from the Guardian

Insiders: deposit tax could be added to legislation today


Cyprus insiders have confirmed to the Guardian that the original plan to tax bank deposits is back on the agenda today. 

But it's likely that small savers with less than €100,000 in the bank would be spared (but that's not official)

The move comes growing criticism of the way Cypriot politicians have handled the crisis.

From Nicosia, Helena Smith reports:


Insiders are telling me that the tax levy may well be included in legislation MPs will be called to vote on later today.

The chief executive of Laiki Bank has also joined the chorus of criticism of the the government's alternative bailout calling the restructuring of Cyprus' second biggest bank "a disaster."

"It will be a disaster not just for the bank but for the economy of Cyprus," he said.

Dividing the lender between "good" and "bad" banks would have a knock-on effect for other banks he argued and lead, inexorably, to soaring unemployment, closure of businesses and loss of deposits.

"The bank is a systemic bank and we believe this problem will be transferred to the other banks very quickly. So effectively no bank will be able to operate normally from now on and I don't really know until when."

That is in line with view of other more cool-headed analysts who have also described the overwhelming repudication of the first bailout package as a classic example of MPs pandering to populist sentiment.

Cypriot TV is reporting that those with more than €100,000 in a Cypriot bank could lose at 15% of their savings.


----------



## Guest

Analysis - Cypriot gas no fix for country's funding gap | Reuters


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> The lates report from the Guardian
> 
> Insiders: deposit tax could be added to legislation today
> 
> 
> Cyprus insiders have confirmed to the Guardian that the original plan to tax bank deposits is back on the agenda today.
> 
> But it's likely that small savers with less than €100,000 in the bank would be spared (but that's not official)
> 
> The move comes growing criticism of the way Cypriot politicians have handled the crisis.
> 
> From Nicosia, Helena Smith reports:
> 
> 
> Insiders are telling me that the tax levy may well be included in legislation MPs will be called to vote on later today.
> 
> The chief executive of Laiki Bank has also joined the chorus of criticism of the the government's alternative bailout calling the restructuring of Cyprus' second biggest bank "a disaster."
> 
> "It will be a disaster not just for the bank but for the economy of Cyprus," he said.
> 
> Dividing the lender between "good" and "bad" banks would have a knock-on effect for other banks he argued and lead, inexorably, to soaring unemployment, closure of businesses and loss of deposits.
> 
> "The bank is a systemic bank and we believe this problem will be transferred to the other banks very quickly. So effectively no bank will be able to operate normally from now on and I don't really know until when."
> 
> That is in line with view of other more cool-headed analysts who have also described the overwhelming repudication of the first bailout package as a classic example of MPs pandering to populist sentiment.
> 
> Cypriot TV is reporting that those with more than €100,000 in a Cypriot bank could lose at 15% of their savings.


I think we've seen all this reported already today.

The rhetoric from the Laiki Chairman doesn't have him mentioning how he got his bank into the state its in and of course is made on the basis that he's about to lose his job with probably no money for a typical Cypriot golden handshake.

The criticism of MPs pandering to populist sentiment is a little harsh. They'd have been criticised for ignoring it if the theft had gone ahead as it was. Also there are critical reports emerging of the original theft demands even within the EU.

The rest is speculation at the moment and no more valid than anything we've come up with on this forum without any payment for doing so!!!

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

trev1234 said:


> Analysis - Cypriot gas no fix for country's funding gap | Reuters


Well that one reads like a conclusion to which they matched the evidence.

If all these wise men know the future price of gas and the viability of exploiting it how come Cyprus's fields are the only ones they deem non-viable?

It reminds me of when OPEC said that oil supplies would run out in 25 years back in the 70s. They didn't and there's more oil extraction now than ever before.

So why did the article not factor in future increased demand for cheap gas to replace expensive oil in power generation etc?

Why was none of this brought up when the original gas surveys were carried out?

Pete


----------



## Guest

Perhaps it is old new but Swedish tv now say that Pireus bank take over laiki and Cyprus Bank Greek parts and ease off 2.3 billion from the money need. Confirmed by the Pireus bank and the Greek stability fund


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Perhaps it is old new but Swedish tv now say that Pireus bank take over laiki and Cyprus Bank Greek parts and ease off 2.3 billion from the money need. Confirmed by the Pireus bank and the Greek stability fund


Are you sure that's correct? I thought the €2.3 bn came from eliminating Laiki's need for recapitalisation in Cyprus and transferring its accounts to BofC.

If not it's good news as eliminating Laiki in Cyprus will yield more.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> Are you sure that's correct? I thought the €2.3 bn came from eliminating Laiki's need for recapitalisation in Cyprus and transferring its accounts to BofC.
> 
> If not it's good news as eliminating Laiki in Cyprus will yield more.
> 
> Pete


This is according to The chairman of the Greek stability fund


----------



## Veronica

BBC news have just reported that the Cyprus government have said that as Russia has refused to help russian investors accounts are going to be hit very hard.
This could be the beginning of the end of the Cyprus love affair with Russia.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> BBC news have just reported that the Cyprus government have said that as Russia has refused to help russian investors accounts are going to be hit very hard.
> This could be the beginning of the end of the Cyprus love affair with Russia.


But Russian is easier then Chinese to understand


----------



## Veronica

Vegaanders said:


> But Russian is easier then Chinese to understand


Very true, I can't even understand the Chinese when they are speaking English, never mind when they are talking in Chinese


----------



## kempo23

You can understand Russian???


----------



## Veronica

kempo23 said:


> You can understand Russian???


I can't even understand Scottish


----------



## MartynKSA

this is a very useful link

Cyprus crisis: MPs approve bank restructuring and solidarity fund - as it happened | Business | guardian.co.uk


----------



## virgil

Anthanasios Orphanides, former governor of Cyprus Central Bank, speaking on BBC Radio 4 this morning, 
move cursor along to 1.33 and Orphanides begins speaking at 1.36:

BBC Radio 4 - Today, 23/03/2013

Also see: Cyprus bailout: Former central bank head says European project dying | Business Insider | Financial Post


----------



## dave22

i agree Martyn


----------



## MartynKSA

virgil said:


> Anthanasios Orphanides, former governor of Cyprus Central Bank, speaking on BBC Radio 4 this morning,
> move cursor along to 1.33 and Orphanides begins speaking at 1.36:
> 
> What's you views, Pete? sounded a lot of sense to me.
> 
> So, nothing gong to be concluded today as everyone off the Brussels again- this is as bad as the US "fiscal cliff" situation


----------



## PeteandSylv

virgil said:


> Anthanasios Orphanides, former governor of Cyprus Central Bank, speaking on BBC Radio 4 this morning,
> move cursor along to 1.33 and Orphanides begins speaking at 1.36:
> 
> BBC Radio 4 - Today, 23/03/2013
> 
> Also see: Cyprus bailout: Former central bank head says European project dying | Business Insider | Financial Post


Having read the article and listened to him I think he is sanitising the problem when he says “Cyprus did not have a problem before earlier blunders that were made by European governments.” Had the Cyprus banks not put too many eggs into one basket and had the Government had effective regulatory controls in place, they would not have been so exposed.

He is of course perfectly correct in the reminder that the last and dreadful government failed to act or react appropriately or in a timely fashion.

However I think he may be right with regard to the demise of the EU in its current form. The first test will be the extent of run on other EU banks following whatever process is finalised for Cyprus and the EU reaction.

Pete


----------



## virgil

Southern Europe lies prostrate before the German imperium - Telegraph


----------



## MartynKSA

Pete- your views have always been very considered, so thanks


----------



## Geraldine

MartynKSA said:


> Pete- your views have always been very considered, so thanks


I'd also like to thank our main 'correspondents' this week, for their input, views and thoughts, it has been very interesting to read what is happening around the world and I am amazed at all your knowledge about the things debated.:clap2:

You should all run for government....


----------



## jojo

and heres some advice that Cyprus doesnt need Take lots of cash, don’t get mugged | The Sun |News|Politics

Jo xxx


----------



## Waterdog

Not wishing to intrude other than to say that I am sure that all of our thoughts & hopes are with you guys in this present horrible situation.

I am a little surprised that there has been so little discussion on the other Southern European Expat Forums (or am I looking in the wrong place)?

Is it a case that fear stalks the land as to who is next?

Hoping for the best.


----------



## jojo

Waterdog said:


> Not wishing to intrude other than to say that I am sure that our thoughts & hopes are with you guys in this present horrible situation.
> 
> I am a little surprised that there has been so little discussion on the other Southern European Expat Forums (or am I looking in the wrong place)?
> 
> Is it a case that fear stalks the land as to who is next?
> 
> Hoping for the best.


 We have this on the Spanish forum http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/146742-cyprus-shock-horror.html

Jo xxx


----------



## Waterdog

jojo said:


> We have this on the Spanish forum http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/146742-cyprus-shock-horror.html
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks must admit I have been following progress in my old area Portugal.

Unlike Spain, Portugal with a relatively small economy must be vulnerable?

What a mess.


----------



## jojo

Waterdog said:


> Thanks must admit I have been following progress in my old area Portugal.
> 
> Unlike Spain, Portugal with a relatively small economy must be vulnerable?
> 
> What a mess.



I think/hope that Spain is too big for the EU to mess with????????????? and evenso, it will then affect all the other countries anyway. I suspect this is the beginning/middle of the end of the EU, altho then what and how...... who knows

Jo xxx


----------



## MartynKSA

Geraldine said:


> I'd also like to thank our main 'correspondents' this week, for their input, views and thoughts, it has been very interesting to read what is happening around the world and I am amazed at all your knowledge about the things debated.:clap2:
> 
> You should all run for government....


hear, hear!!!

Except for the running for Government- can't imagine ANYONE would want to do that ( I bet Nicos Anastasiades wishes now he hadn't won!- as whatever happens happened on his watch (and it won't be good, whatever it is) he will always be blamed) Also bet Chris Toffee Arse is laughing his socks off!


----------



## Geraldine

MartynKSA said:


> hear, hear!!!
> 
> Except for the running for Government- can't imagine ANYONE would want to do that ( I bet Nicos Anastasiades wishes now he hadn't won!- as whatever happens happened on his watch (and it won't be good, whatever it is) he will always be blamed) Also bet Chris Toffee Arse is laughing his socks off!


I have read reports already of what the President and the government should and shouldn't have done, either way, it won't have pleased the majority, but when you are between a rock and a hard place..... as with most things it's easy to sit on the sidelines and think things should have been done differently.

Christofias has a lot to answer for.:boxing:


----------



## PeteandSylv

MartynKSA said:


> hear, hear!!!
> 
> Also bet Chris Toffee Arse is laughing his socks off!


or cowering in fear of assassination or as I'd prefer to call it: Mercy Killing !!!










Pete


----------



## Geraldine

PeteandSylv said:


> or cowering in fear of assassination or as I'd prefer to call it: Mercy Killing !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete


Form an orderly queue.........


----------



## Guest

Another funny picture to lighten up a little


----------



## PeteandSylv

There is an irony in that Cyprus will be deducting 25% from any Russian deposits that are actually laundered money. That's a damn sight more than the evaded tax that Russia would have got!!!

Pete


----------



## Guest

Sweish news now report that the Cyprus government has agreed with the trojka to take 20% for deposits over 100000 in Cyprus bank and 4% from same value of deposits in other banks. Is this really possible?

Anders


----------



## David_&_Letitia

virgil said:


> Anthanasios Orphanides, former governor of Cyprus Central Bank, speaking on BBC Radio 4 this morning,
> move cursor along to 1.33 and Orphanides begins speaking at 1.36:
> 
> BBC Radio 4 - Today, 23/03/2013
> 
> Also see: Cyprus bailout: Former central bank head says European project dying | Business Insider | Financial Post


Chris Morris, the BBC European correspondent speaking to John Humphries before Orphanides said that the Cyprus banking sector was worth 700% - 800% of the Cypriot GDP. That was clearly unsustainable, and made it appear to be too big to fail. Compare these figures with more traditional tax havens like Swiss banks which is 260% of GDP. No wonder the Cyprus business model was described as unsustainable…


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> Sweish news now report that the Cyprus government has agreed with the trojka to take 20% for deposits over 100000 in Cyprus bank and 4% from same value of deposits in other banks. Is this really possible?
> 
> Anders


UK News is reporting 25% for over €100,000 and 4% but unspecfied from where.

Well at least the Deposit Protection for savings up to €100,000 is being guaranteed.


----------



## lea1

Does anybody know if deposits above $100,000 euros in Hellenic Bank are going to be hit with the 25% levy?.... or is it just The Bank of Cyprus? I can't find any info regarding this, all news seems to be concentrating on Bank of Cyprus and Laiki.


----------



## Veronica

lea1 said:


> Does anybody know if deposits above $100,000 euros in Hellenic Bank are going to be hit with the 25% levy?.... or is it just The Bank of Cyprus? I can't find any info regarding this, all news seems to be concentrating on Bank of Cyprus and Laiki.


It appears that only the bank of Cyprus depositors will suffer the 20% levy. All other banks will be 4%.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> It appears that only the bank of Cyprus depositors will suffer the 20% levy. All other banks will be 4%.


Still Laiki seem to be split up

Anders


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Hang on!

The figures don't seem to add up.

Cyprus needs to find €5.8bn from the banking sector. Around €2bn may be found by re-structuring, leaving €3.8bn to find. However, it is estimated that the value of deposits above €100,000 are €38bn. A levy of 20% would raise €7.6bn and a levy of 25% would raise €9.5bn.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> Hang on!
> 
> The figures don't seem to add up.
> 
> Cyprus needs to find €5.8bn from the banking sector. Around €2bn may be found by re-structuring, leaving €3.8bn to find. However, it is estimated that the value of deposits above €100,000 are €38bn. A levy of 20% would raise €7.6bn and a levy of 25% would raise €9.5bn.
> 
> Am I missing something?


Probably the 38 bn is not right. And a 110 000 deposit is over the limit but will only leave 10000 to tax


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> Probably the 38 bn is not right. And a 110 000 deposit is over the limit but will only leave 10000 to tax


Irish Times states:

_"The tottering banks hold €68 billion euros in deposits, including €38 billion in accounts of more than €100,000 - enormous sums for an island of 1.1 million people which could never sustain such a big financial system on its own."_

The Economist states:

_"In a bid to retain Cyprus’s appeal to Russians, Mr Anastasiades apparently wanted to keep the tax raid on depositors below 10%. Since the total value of deposits above €100,000 was an estimated €38 billion, that meant he could raise only €3.8 billion from them. So a 6.75% tax on the remaining €30 billion in smaller deposits was needed, in order to raise the missing €2 billion."_

Two different sources - both highly respected quoting the same figure.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> It appears that only the bank of Cyprus depositors will suffer the 20% levy. All other banks will be 4%.


That's what I missed!

Another quote from The Irish Times:

"Under the latest proposal, Russians are unlikely to be hit hardest by the mooted tax, given that just five per cent of deposits at Bank of Cyprus come from Russia, according to the bank's latest results statement."


----------



## lea1

Thats another thing I am confused about.... 20% tax on accounts above $100,000 euros.
Does that mean tax on the whole amount. eg, 20% of $110,000 = $22,000 loss, or.....tax only on the amount above $100,000, eg. $110,000 = $2,000 loss from the $10,000 over the threshold?

They way they say it, to me it sounds like it could mean either way??


----------



## Guest

lea1 said:


> Thats another thing I am confused about.... 20% tax on accounts above $100,000 euros.
> Does that mean tax on the whole amount. eg, 20% of $110,000 = $22,000 loss, or.....tax only on the amount above $100,000, eg. $110,000 = $2,000 loss from the $10,000 over the threshold?
> 
> They way they say it, to me it sounds like it could mean either way??


100 000 is always protected. rest is taxed

Anders


----------



## lea1

Vegaanders said:


> 100 000 is always protected. rest is taxed
> 
> Anders



Thanks for that.

Although when the news readers say "it means people could lose a fifth of their savings,"... to me it sounds like they want to tax the whole lump sum.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

lea1 said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Although when the news readers say "it means people could lose a fifth of their savings,"... to me it sounds like they want to tax the whole lump sum.


Anders is 100% correct.

€100,000 is protected but if you have a joint account, this rises to €200,000.

See:

Deposit insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## NoEuro

To me, some names central in this crisis do not bring me any trust: In Cyprus, there are guys like Orphanides, Panicos, etc. who are in charge of the cleanup...

A panicked orphant...?


----------



## MartynKSA

Compare these figures with more traditional tax havens like Swiss banks which is 260% of GDP. No wonder the Cyprus business model was described as unsustainable…[/QUOTE]

I've seen figures recently about Luxembourg & Latvia having higher %- can't find numbers at moment- but significantly higher. What does it say about their economies (specially with Latvia looking to join EU)?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

An interesting article in yesterday's Economist on Cyprus gas. There is a map showing territorial waters in the region too which explains a great deal:

The Cypriot gasfield: Hot air | The Economist


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> An interesting article in yesterday's Economist on Cyprus gas. There is a map showing territorial waters in the region too which explains a great deal:
> 
> The Cypriot gasfield: Hot air | The Economist


I think this is another input to explain the unwillingness from different parts to use the gas as a collateral.


----------



## PeteandSylv

MartynKSA said:


> I've seen figures recently about Luxembourg & Latvia having higher %- can't find numbers at moment- but significantly higher. What does it say about their economies (specially with Latvia looking to join EU)?


If true what it implies is that the EU have learned nothing from admitting Greece and are failing to carry out due diligence and react accordingly.

I am becoming more and more concerned at the apparent incapability of the EU, a huge and costly organisation that seems to be more and more in disarray with a few countries barking orders to the remainder.

Many complain that entry to the EU means higher prices. Of course it does. Inside the EU there are 2 governments to pay for both of which seem to need to spend far too much time in conflict.

The previous posts discussing the 100K threshold repeat that deposits below 100k are protected. So were the EU demands of robbing those deposits which were placed on the table at the start pointless and possibly illegal as well as immoral?

Does anyone know whether the EU accounts have been signed off by the auditors? I seem to remember some years ago that they had never been signed off due to vast missing amounts of money unaccounted for. Certainly these amounts were in excess of Cyprus's bailout requirements.

Disillusioned Pete


----------



## MartynKSA

tell you what, when this is all over, we are all gonna know a hell of a lot more abut how the financial world does(n't) work!!!!


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> If true what it implies is that the EU have learned nothing from admitting Greece and are failing to carry out due diligence and react accordingly.
> 
> I am becoming more and more concerned at the apparent incapability of the EU, a huge and costly organisation that seems to be more and more in disarray with a few countries barking orders to the remainder.
> 
> Many complain that entry to the EU means higher prices. Of course it does. Inside the EU there are 2 governments to pay for both of which seem to need to spend far too much time in conflict.
> 
> The previous posts discussing the 100K threshold repeat that deposits below 100k are protected. So were the EU demands of robbing those deposits which were placed on the table at the start pointless and possibly illegal as well as immoral?
> 
> Does anyone know whether the EU accounts have been signed off by the auditors? I seem to remember some years ago that they had never been signed off due to vast missing amounts of money unaccounted for. Certainly these amounts were in excess of Cyprus's bailout requirements.
> 
> Disillusioned Pete


I agree what you say but is it really clear from where the 6.75% on under 100000 came. There are so many different opinions and rumors so you cant really say from whom it came. EU or government

Not yet disillusioned Anders(still on schedule )


----------



## PeteandSylv

David_&_Letitia said:


> An interesting article in yesterday's Economist on Cyprus gas. There is a map showing territorial waters in the region too which explains a great deal:
> 
> The Cypriot gasfield: Hot air | The Economist


This seems to be another article that started with a conclusion and then made the evidence match it. I can re-interpret many of the negative points differently.

_"But the trickier part is getting the gas out and turning it into money. Politics is the main blockage."_ Having stated that the article then goes on to discuss technical problems virtually ignoring any politics.

_"A pipeline to Turkey, which is desperate for more gas, is out of the question"_ Is it? A bit of lateral thinking might suggest that this could be the spur to bring the 2 sides together for a common solution to the Turkey/Cyprus conflict. Was it out of the question for Cyprus to purchase electricity from the TRNC?

_"Cyprus doesn’t have enough gas (or cash) to justify building a liquefied natural gas (LNG) plant, which would cost $20 billion or so."_ Of course not and no-one has ever suggested that it did. Every discussion I have read about the gas has involved partnerships with others who have the expertise.

The final paragraph, based on rumours, is a good example of creating a problem from a possible solution on the basis of no hard evidence.

Is anyone else fed up of constant negative journalism?

Pro Gas Pete


----------



## kempo23

Is it protected for non EU residents?


----------



## David_&_Letitia

kempo23 said:


> Is it protected for non EU residents?


At the moment - yes.

But remember that Iceland passed legislation the day before its own banking collapse which removed the protection for non-Icelanders, which led to the UK and Netherlands stepping in to protect their citizens.


----------



## Guest

kempo23 said:


> Is it protected for non EU residents?


Citizenship does not matter


----------



## David_&_Letitia

PeteandSylv said:


> The previous posts discussing the 100K threshold repeat that deposits below 100k are protected. So were the EU demands of robbing those deposits which were placed on the table at the start pointless and possibly illegal as well as immoral?
> 
> Disillusioned Pete


Just to qualify a seemingly small but crucial point - the Cyprus Deposit Protection Scheme covers savers for the first €100k (€200k for joint accounts) *in the event of their bank collapsing.* Last weeks plan to raid accounts including those under €100k were justified by the Troika as a plan to save the banks from collapsing and the DPS would not therefore apply. 

I am certainly not trying to justify their position. Like you, I consider it to be tantamount to theft by another name. I also think that the the term 'haircut' is rather silly. I don't know about anyone else, but I need a haircut every 4 weeks. Only when I have no hair left, will I no longer be in line for a haircut...


----------



## Guest

This article is really interesting

Why Cyprus Matters (And The ECB Knows It) | Zero Hedge


----------



## PeteandSylv

David_&_Letitia said:


> Just to qualify a seemingly small but crucial point - the Cyprus Deposit Protection Scheme covers savers for the first €100k (€200k for joint accounts) *in the event of their bank collapsing.* Last weeks plan to raid accounts including those under €100k were justified by the Troika as a plan to save the banks from collapsing and the DPS would not therefore apply.
> 
> I am certainly not trying to justify their position. Like you, I consider it to be tantamount to theft by another name. I also think that the the term 'haircut' is rather silly. I don't know about anyone else, but I need a haircut every 4 weeks. Only when I have no hair left, will I no longer be in line for a haircut...


Thank you for the clarification. I had assumed the guarantee from much of the press coverage. The formal definition given on the Central Bank of Cyprus site is:
_The DPS is activated in the event a decision is reached that a member bank is unable to repay its deposits, or as a result of a Court’s order for the winding-up of a member bank._
I wonder if it is legally arguable that a government command to remove part of a deposit is tantamount to the bank not being able to repay the deposit. If it is they would likely structure a law or emergency power to exclude it.

I also agree the term "haircut" is silly which is why I always put it in quotes when I used it. Probably a more apt name would be partial castration!!

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> This article is really interesting
> 
> Why Cyprus Matters (And The ECB Knows It) | Zero Hedge


A very powerful article that makes some very strong points.

The first paragraph makes fascinating reading and I wonder what the value of the Cyprus bonds he talks about would be in the current circumstances. Surely if they are collateral they are worthless as the country is now borrowing to avoid bankruptcy.

I would also like to hear an answer to the question he poses: _"I wonder how they are going to force UBS or BNP to issue shares for the money taken from those banks."_

Impressed Pete


----------



## Veronica

Well it isn't over by a long way. The EU still are not happy with the proposals and in a poll in the Netherlands 56% thought Cyprus should leave the eurozone
It is looking as though nothing our government comes up with will satisfy Europe. They want us out no matter what. Yet they are now talkin g of letting Latvia join. Sheer lunacy.


----------



## Guest

Every economic expert say it would be stupid and hurt EU a lot so I still hope. But there is a lot of rumors also out there, so what really happen is hard to say

Anders


----------



## gasman1065

Proposed Cyprus Solidarity Fund shot down by Eurozone


----------



## MartynKSA

PeteandSylv said:


> A very powerful article that makes some very strong points.
> 
> as you say, Pete, very powerful stuff.
> 
> It would be nice (but unrealistic) for the Politicians to say, having read this kind of thing, " you know what, you're right; we need to rethink this before it's too late"
> 
> ooh! look- there goes another one flying past my window (even in Saudi Arabia!!!)
> 
> Could be too late anyway


----------



## Veronica

The optimism of the weekend has been shot to pieces and we are back to wondering what is going to happen.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Where are these latest updates coming from?

Wondering Pete


----------



## Veronica

PeteandSylv said:


> Where are these latest updates coming from?
> 
> Wondering Pete


The Guardian


----------



## anoutlaw

Cyprus in last-ditch bid to agree bailout - live | Business | guardian.co.uk

Just check the link and you will have the auto updates!


----------



## PeteandSylv

Well there's not a lot happening at the moment so while you're waiting check this out:

If only he were a politician

Magical Pete


----------



## buster12

Hi everyone - I guess you will have heard of the Chinese curse 'May you live in interesting times'? Well I really understand it now, as we have just packed the house to move to Cyprus in April (as many of you will know) and now we really do not know what we should be doing. Even if the bailout happens (and that still looks pretty shaky), what is the country going to be like? How well will the banking system work? Will it be possible to obtain money, food, etc? What will happen to property prices? It's all out of my experience and knowledge to be honest and we have had sleepless nights for the last week wondering whether we should cancel.

On the plus side,, we managed to stop transfer of money and house purchase in time not to lose money if there is a haircut, we haven't actually departed yet, though the furniture id=s on the way and half our clothes are already there! However, I have given up a good job and sold the house to follow our dream, so we sit here, homeless, jobless and worried what the heck to do next!

So, all you pundits actually there now - what should we do? All comments, advice or whatever welcomed! How is life panning out over there at the moment? I am sure the TV reports are much exaggerated and the biggest problem is getting any accurate up to date feedback.

Good luck to all and I look forward to your comments - acerbic or otherwise. 

Regards,

David


----------



## Guest

buster12 said:


> Hi everyone - I guess you will have heard of the Chinese curse 'May you live in interesting times'? Well I really understand it now, as we have just packed the house to move to Cyprus in April (as many of you will know) and now we really do not know what we should be doing. Even if the bailout happens (and that still looks pretty shaky), what is the country going to be like? How well will the banking system work? Will it be possible to obtain money, food, etc? What will happen to property prices? It's all out of my experience and knowledge to be honest and we have had sleepless nights for the last week wondering whether we should cancel.
> 
> On the plus side,, we managed to stop transfer of money and house purchase in time not to lose money if there is a haircut, we haven't actually departed yet, though the furniture id=s on the way and half our clothes are already there! However, I have given up a good job and sold the house to follow our dream, so we sit here, homeless, jobless and worried what the heck to do next!
> 
> So, all you pundits actually there now - what should we do? All comments, advice or whatever welcomed! How is life panning out over there at the moment? I am sure the TV reports are much exaggerated and the biggest problem is getting any accurate up to date feedback.
> 
> Good luck to all and I look forward to your comments - acerbic or otherwise.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David


Hi David!

I cant tell you anything out from being in Cyprus but I can tell you how we have reasoned being exactly in your situation. We will arrive the 10th of April leaving our former lives to settle down and live our dream in Cyprus. Of course we can always go back in disaster strikes, and so should you be able to.

But 1 thing is for sure, Cyprus will come through this and prosper one more time. Cyprus has so much to offer. Perhaps a vital financial market will not be one of them but for me it is more important that Cyprus go back to use all the good things and make money out of them. The sun is always there and that will not change. I hope Cyprus will use it to build a bigger tourist industry. But sun can also be used for power production in a much bigger scale then done today.

Hopefully the property market prices now will come down to reasonable levels and all the fantastic properties can then attract new groups of people coming for holiday or longer stays because the prices come down. More tourists and visitors will create more jobs and more income.

Perhaps the profitable bank business is now over but how much money from them has really benefited the Cyprus people?

We have taken a decision to put our efforts to build a new life on Cyprus. This is where we want to go on with our lives. We just don't worry about future.

Cyprus need all people it can get that contribute to the economy however they can. WE have decided to be 2 of them, despite today's problem, hope you do it too.

Anders & Yuilya


----------



## Veronica

The latest from the guardian

Greek media are reporting tonight that Cyprus's president, Nicos Anastasiades, is refusing to accept the Troika's demands over the Cypriot banking sector.

They say he will not agree to the Bank of Cyprus shouldering the burden of the €9bn of liquidity assistance supplied to Laiki Bank's by the European Central Bank (when Laiki is broken into a 'good' bank and a 'bad' bank).

There are even unconfirmed reports in Greece that Anastasiades threatened to resign rather than cave in:


----------



## Geraldine

Veronica said:


> The latest from the guardian
> 
> Greek media are reporting tonight that Cyprus's president, Nicos Anastasiades, is refusing to accept the Troika's demands over the Cypriot banking sector.
> 
> They say he will not agree to the Bank of Cyprus shouldering the burden of the €9bn of liquidity assistance supplied to Laiki Bank's by the European Central Bank (when Laiki is broken into a 'good' bank and a 'bad' bank).
> 
> There are even unconfirmed reports in Greece that Anastasiades threatened to resign rather than cave in:


I just feel that as it's the 11th hour, they may try and force a deal on him that he doesn't want for Cyprus but out of desperation, will accept.

This tells a different story. 

They need us and much as we need them....


----------



## Veronica

Geraldine said:


> I just feel that as it's the 11th hour, they may try and force a deal on him that he doesn't want for Cyprus but out of desperation, will accept.
> 
> This tells a different story.
> 
> They need us and much as we need them....


When you read all the stuff out there it certainly dosn't look as though they need us. Quite the opposite, they want rid of us. But at the same time it looks as though Latvia are on their way in. It was just flashed up on Sky news.
What a farce.


----------



## buster12

Hi Anders, Yullya,

Thanks you for your positive comments and quick answer. A bit spooky - we also land on 10th April to start living our dream! We go into Pafos - what about you?

I take heart from your comments - as you say, I believe it will be good for Cyprus to get back to it's roots and what it is good at - sunshine, hospitality, freindliness, wonderful climate and way of life - and escape from the reliance on banking and large deposits from oversea - dodgy or not!. The country has definitely lost sight of what it is all about I feel - I remember it from living in Limassol in 1976 to 1979 and it has certanly changed, but not all for the better. No-one wants to go back in time to 'good old nostalgia' but a return to some old values would be nice I feel.

I guess we are sitting here in a rented caravan, watching all our wordly goods disappearing, no-one to discuss it with and just getting nervous! The next couple of days and the answer to whether or not there is a bail out will be decisive, but at the moment, on balance, we will be there - I think!!! (Hope).

Thanks again and hope to meet up with you in the sun,

Regards,

David & Christine


----------



## Geraldine

Veronica said:


> When you read all the stuff out there it certainly dosn't look as though they need us. Quite the opposite, they want rid of us. But at the same time it looks as though Latvia are on their way in. It was just flashed up on Sky news.
> What a farce.


I just wish we had the balls to go it alone with steely determination and give the lot of 'em the rods!

Don't know about you fellow posters but I feel drained,it's like waiting for an imminent birth.


----------



## buster12

Hi Anders, Yullya,

Thanks you for your positive comments and quick answer. A bit spooky - we also land on 10th April to start living our dream! We go into Pafos - what about you?

I take heart from your comments - as you say, I believe it will be good for Cyprus to get back to it's roots and what it is good at - sunshine, hospitality, freindliness, wonderful climate and way of life - and escape from the reliance on banking and large deposits from oversea - dodgy or not!. The country has definitely lost sight of what it is all about I feel - I remember it from living in Limassol in 1976 to 1979 and it has certanly changed, but not all for the better. No-one wants to go back in time to 'good old nostalgia' but a return to some old values would be nice I feel.

I guess we are sitting here in a rented caravan, watching all our wordly goods disappearing, no-one to discuss it with and just getting nervous! The next couple of days and the answer to whether or not there is a bail out will be decisive, but at the moment, on balance, we will be there - I think!!! (Hope).

Thanks again and hope to meet up with you in the sun,

Regards,

David & Christine


----------



## Guest

buster12 said:


> Hi Anders, Yullya,
> 
> Thanks you for your positive comments and quick answer. A bit spooky - we also land on 10th April to start living our dream! We go into Pafos - what about you?
> 
> I take heart from your comments - as you say, I believe it will be good for Cyprus to get back to it's roots and what it is good at - sunshine, hospitality, freindliness, wonderful climate and way of life - and escape from the reliance on banking and large deposits from oversea - dodgy or not!. The country has definitely lost sight of what it is all about I feel - I remember it from living in Limassol in 1976 to 1979 and it has certanly changed, but not all for the better. No-one wants to go back in time to 'good old nostalgia' but a return to some old values would be nice I feel.
> 
> I guess we are sitting here in a rented caravan, watching all our wordly goods disappearing, no-one to discuss it with and just getting nervous! The next couple of days and the answer to whether or not there is a bail out will be decisive, but at the moment, on balance, we will be there - I think!!! (Hope).
> 
> Thanks again and hope to meet up with you in the sun,
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David & Christine


Hi!

If no bailout it will most likely mean that Euro will be gone and Cyprus go back to pounds. It will be a slowdown for a while but it will raise again. But I reaaly have hard to believe a no, they will solv it somehow, no one can afford a no. Not Cyprus, Not EU

We come with ship together with the car. We will also be in the Paphos area as it seems now, at least we haave an apartment for 2 weeks when we look for a lont term

Anders


----------



## Veronica

Some more interesting stuff from the guardian

The unconfirmed rumours that Cyprus's president threatened to quit during today's talks (see 6.39pm and also this report from Greece) have let us wondering whether someone else ought to be clearing their desk instead. Especially if the crisis ends badly.

This crisis has many fathers -- should Jeroen Dijsselbloem carry the can for chairing the eurogroup meeting where the original bailout was agreed?

Jörg Asmussen of the ECB, who apparently helped dream up this 'solidarity levy', perhaps? Or maybe Olli Rehn - credited with first proposing the idea of a tax on all savers?


----------



## buster12

Vegaanders said:


> Hi!
> 
> If no bailout it will most likely mean that Euro will be gone and Cyprus go back to pounds. It will be a slowdown for a while but it will raise again. But I reaaly have hard to believe a no, they will solv it somehow, no one can afford a no. Not Cyprus, Not EU
> 
> We come with ship together with the car. We will also be in the Paphos area as it seems now, at least we haave an apartment for 2 weeks when we look for a lont term
> 
> Anders


Hello Anders,

WE decided not to bring the car - cost outweighed benefit. So we fly and are staying just outsoide Pafos )Mandria) in a rental for a little while until we decide what to do. Long term rent or buy - was going to be buy but maybe rent for a while now!

We should get together for a beer (or two) when you arrive so keep in touch. 
good luck with all you are doing and no doubt we will continue to keep in touch through the forum - or PM me anytime.

Regards,

David


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> Some more interesting stuff from the guardian
> 
> The unconfirmed rumours that Cyprus's president threatened to quit during today's talks (see 6.39pm and also this report from Greece) have let us wondering whether someone else ought to be clearing their desk instead. Especially if the crisis ends badly.
> 
> This crisis has many fathers -- should Jeroen Dijsselbloem carry the can for chairing the eurogroup meeting where the original bailout was agreed?
> 
> Jörg Asmussen of the ECB, who apparently helped dream up this 'solidarity levy', perhaps? Or maybe Olli Rehn - credited with first proposing the idea of a tax on all savers?


and let us not forget the massive contribution of Idiot Christofias who defied all sensible logic, procrastinated promptly and antagonised the Troika.

Executioner Pete


----------



## MartynKSA

:rofl::rofl:


Geraldine said:


> I just wish we had the balls to go it alone with steely determination and give the lot of 'em the rods!
> 
> Don't know about you fellow posters but I feel drained,it's like waiting for an imminent birth.


or death 

NO!!! lets be POSITIVE- it's a new beginning and beginnings ALWAYS have promise. You might find this daft, but I wish I was there all the time, instead of just coming in from KSA every few weeks. Things are going to be very tough, but Cyprus has reinvented herself before, so no reason why not again

Chins up, everyone- could be worse. You could be in the UK!!!


----------



## MartynKSA

Interesting official quotes from "Eurogroup Statement on Cyprus" on Guardian site

Cyprus bailout: last-ditch deal agreed - as it happened | Business | guardian.co.uk

"The programme will address the exceptional challenges that Cyprus is facing and restore the viability of the financial sector, with the view of restoring sustainable growth and sound public finances over the coming years. 

The statement adds:


The programme will contain a decisive approach to addressing financial sector imbalances. There will be an appropriate downsizing of the financial sector, with the domestic banking sector reaching the EU average by 2018.

In addition, the Cypriot authorities have reaffirmed their commitment to step up efforts in the areas of fiscal consolidation, structural reforms and *privatisation*

My emphasis on *privatisation*- that's an interesting about turn

full statement at 

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ecofin/136487.pdf


----------



## Veronica

Well it seems we are saved but it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks and how the measures affect us all.
I know for one thing that freezing all accounts over 100K is going to affect several Cypriots we know who have been saving to buy homes.


----------



## Guest

Veronica said:


> Well it seems we are saved but it will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks and how the measures affect us all.
> I know for one thing that freezing all accounts over 100K is going to affect several Cypriots we know who have been saving to buy homes.


But how will this affect businesses? Big companies must be able to operate on daily basis. 100000 is not much in this case

Anders


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> But how will this affect businesses? Big companies must be able to operate on daily basis. 100000 is not much in this case
> 
> Anders


BBC News reporting a 40% levy on sums over €100k in Bank of Cyprus and Laiki, and a recognition that some Cypriot businesses will go bankrupt.

As always, the devil will be in the detail. I can't believe that the hours of negotiations were just to decide the size of the haircut.


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> BBC News reporting a 40% levy on sums over €100k in Bank of Cyprus and Laiki, and a recognition that some Cypriot businesses will go bankrupt.
> 
> As always, the devil will be in the detail. I can't believe that the hours of negotiations were just to decide the size of the haircut.


No percentage is decided, will be decided until 3 rd week in April. All other are rumors like so much else


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Vegaanders said:


> No percentage is decided, will be decided until 3 rd week in April. All other are rumors like so much else


...even more reason to wonder just what the many hours of negotiations were actually about!

BBC Website reports:

_"One key element of the deposit tax, demanded by the IMF,* is that it not require a parliamentary vote."*_


----------



## Guest

David_&_Letitia said:


> ...even more reason to wonder just what the many hours of negotiations were actually about!
> 
> BBC Website reports:
> 
> _"One key element of the deposit tax, demanded by the IMF,* is that it not require a parliamentary vote."*_


Because the parliament already on Friday took a law that gave the government right to do this

Same with splitting the Laiki bank

Anders


----------



## davidogden

this document sums up the european situation http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ecofin/136487.pdf


----------



## DH59

I'm keeping up with this news, and hope everyone there is OK. We would have been there, if I hadn't got this job last summer, so we were quite lucky in some respects.


----------



## PeteandSylv

I guess we have to wait for a lot more detail to evaluate the full extent of the situation. The consilium document politely expresses the broad brush principles.

As others have expressed it is difficult to see why this took so many hours as there is nothing new to discover other than a reference to privatisation. I am pleased to see a little urgency expressed over the investigation into the extent of money laundering but disappointed that there is no reference to the gas fields.

I anticipate that we will now be reading of the effects on Cyprus outside of the financial sector as they become known. The level of confidence will determine the country's ability to finance required imports. I would also guess that property prices will suffer if the banks are unable to offer suitable mortgages while under restrictions and the Russian market will diminish substantially. It will be interesting to see if the Chinese remain attracted to the island.

I've no doubt there will be business casualties to come. It is hard to see any sense in the suppliers' plan to rescue part of Orphanides and a further drop in the building of houses may well have a knock-on effect to the excessive numbers of bathroom suppliers and related businesses.

For the rest of the EU I am sure there will be a mixture of elation and concern. Will there be runs on banks now that personal money can be stolen legally? If so where is the money to be held? Will there be problems with relations with Russia? Will the EU become an organisation of "upper class" countries dominating and restricting the others and can we look forward to correct regulation and control of banks which surely must now be the worst rogue organisations world wide?

Here in Cyprus will the government become one of reform and improvement when their attention can be taken off the current situation. Will the public sector be disciplined, improved, shrunk and develop a reasonable level of efficiency? Will the government amend and re-legislate correctly the laws relating to property purchase and sort the title deeds mess? Will they deal with Cyprus Airways swiftly and effectively without burning more money to support it? And what of the Cypriot attitude to Greece? Will this be amended or are they to carry on with their hero worship?

These and many more questions form the opportunity that Cyprus now has but is the government up to it? Are the politicians to serve the nation or just continue past practice of serving themselves?

We can but wait and see.........and pay.

Reflective Pete


----------



## davidogden

PeteandSylv said:


> For the rest of the EU I am sure there will be a mixture of elation and concern. Will there be runs on banks now that personal money can be stolen legally?
> Reflective Pete


Pete Most banks throughout the world have bank guarantees and the EU has told Cytprus to honour them so there is no theft.

Bank shareholder and members who have deposits or savings over the the garanteed amount risk losing all thier money even in the UK.

Never have more money in any one bank over the guaranteed amount unless you are prepared to lose it. Yes you might get better interest rates but then you might get nothing.

This episode in Cyprus has perhaps made the man and woman in the street more aware of how important it is to take care of your assets. Always research and read the small print. Maybe there will be a growth in financial advisers but one will need to sort the good from the bad.

My advisor has been providing daily situation updates even thuogh I have no assets in Cyprus at the moment. Earlier in the year Iwaslooking to open a bank account in Cyprus and a company in the UKsaid they could do thisfor me with the Laiki Bank but I looked at the banks rating and exposure and decided no way and will most likely use a coop bank.

A word of advice the EU wants a smaller banking sector so expect more bank closures and mergers.

It is too late to get money out of Cyprus but do not move more than you need in.
I guess the banking controls. If you manage to sell a property maybe the payment can be made outside the country. 

In this forum we see people like myself moving in perhaps one could arrange a money swop who knows


----------



## Veronica

davidogden said:


> I guess the banking controls. If you manage to sell a property maybe the payment can be made outside the country.
> 
> In this forum we see people like myself moving in perhaps one could arrange a money swop who knows


It isn't unusual for money to be tranferred between two UK banks in the case of a sale from one Brit to another. This helps to avoid currency exchange charges.
We have one such deal going through at the moment.


----------



## MartynKSA

davidogden said:


> A word of advice the EU wants a smaller banking sector so expect more bank closures and mergers.


I hope they apply the same principles to other Eurozone countries, including Malta, Luxembourg and (soon) Latvia, otherwise it really will be victimisation


----------



## PeteandSylv

davidogden said:


> Pete Most banks throughout the world have bank guarantees and the EU has told Cytprus to honour them so there is no theft.
> 
> Bank shareholder and members who have deposits or savings over the the garanteed amount risk losing all thier money even in the UK.


David, the good advice contained in your post which appears to have been considered over a longer period of time than the immediate crisis, might have been of more interest to this forum had it been given in a more timely fashion. We can all be wise in retrospect.

However I take issue when you say there is no theft. I have no interest in bank shareholders and members (whatever you mean by that) who should be the ones to bear the cost of a failing bank. I am concerned only with bank customers. The requirements of the EU and the final resolved procedure will remove money from customer accounts without permission of the account holder. This has nothing to do with the guarantee which as we had helpfully defined earlier in this thread relates to bankruptcy. The taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it is a definition of theft.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> I guess we have to wait for a lot more detail to evaluate the full extent of the situation. The consilium document politely expresses the broad brush principles.
> 
> As others have expressed it is difficult to see why this took so many hours as there is nothing new to discover other than a reference to privatisation. I am pleased to see a little urgency expressed over the investigation into the extent of money laundering but disappointed that there is no reference to the gas fields.
> 
> I anticipate that we will now be reading of the effects on Cyprus outside of the financial sector as they become known. The level of confidence will determine the country's ability to finance required imports. I would also guess that property prices will suffer if the banks are unable to offer suitable mortgages while under restrictions and the Russian market will diminish substantially. It will be interesting to see if the Chinese remain attracted to the island.
> 
> I've no doubt there will be business casualties to come. It is hard to see any sense in the suppliers' plan to rescue part of Orphanides and a further drop in the building of houses may well have a knock-on effect to the excessive numbers of bathroom suppliers and related businesses.
> 
> For the rest of the EU I am sure there will be a mixture of elation and concern. Will there be runs on banks now that personal money can be stolen legally? If so where is the money to be held? Will there be problems with relations with Russia? Will the EU become an organisation of "upper class" countries dominating and restricting the others and can we look forward to correct regulation and control of banks which surely must now be the worst rogue organisations world wide?
> 
> Here in Cyprus will the government become one of reform and improvement when their attention can be taken off the current situation. Will the public sector be disciplined, improved, shrunk and develop a reasonable level of efficiency? Will the government amend and re-legislate correctly the laws relating to property purchase and sort the title deeds mess? Will they deal with Cyprus Airways swiftly and effectively without burning more money to support it? And what of the Cypriot attitude to Greece? Will this be amended or are they to carry on with their hero worship?
> 
> These and many more questions form the opportunity that Cyprus now has but is the government up to it? Are the politicians to serve the nation or just continue past practice of serving themselves?
> 
> We can but wait and see.........and pay.
> 
> Reflective Pete


Only one reflection on this. Perhaps Greece managed to keep the glory if the Cypriots consider the Greece overtake of bank branches as something positive

Otherwise I fully agree with you. But as you say we have to wait and see for details. Is it 20% or 40% that is chopped off. 

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> Only one reflection on this. Perhaps Greece managed to keep the glory if the Cypriots consider the Greece overtake of bank branches as something positive
> 
> Otherwise I fully agree with you. But as you say we have to wait and see for details. Is it 20% or 40% that is chopped off.
> 
> Anders


You point about Greece is an interesting one but frankly I'd not like to see Cypriots regarding Greece as a saviour in this regard!

Pete


----------



## dave22

Hope merkle is now happy along with the finish minsters and of course Ms Largard between them they have distroyed Cyprus , but as they say what goes around comes around and lets hope its not long for Merkle and Co


----------



## Guest

dave22 said:


> Hope merkle is now happy along with the finish minsters and of course Ms Largard between them they have distroyed Cyprus , but as they say what goes around comes around and lets hope its not long for Merkle and Co


I just refuse to say or think that Cyprus is destroyed. Its up to the cypriots to prove it. Cyprus is still there with all its positive things. For me its still the dream we will live. 

Anders


----------



## bwfcwood

We have read this thread with interest, trepidation, despair, bewilderment and anger. We have talked long into the night wondering how this will affect Cyprus, and selfishly, how it will affect us and our planned move. As a sensible couple, not prone to taking risks we finally thought.....****** it, we are still coming!!! Cyprus will get through this and we'll come along and lend a hand. The house is sold and we expect to complete by mid May. It may not be the wisest move we ever make but sometimes you have to go with your heart......and sod the bullies.


----------



## MartynKSA

bwfcwood said:


> We have read this thread with interest, trepidation, despair, bewilderment and anger. We have talked long into the night wondering how this will affect Cyprus, and selfishly, how it will affect us and our planned move. As a sensible couple, not prone to taking risks we finally thought.....****** it, we are still coming!!! Cyprus will get through this and we'll come along and lend a hand. The house is sold and we expect to complete by mid May. It may not be the wisest move we ever make but sometimes you have to go with your heart......and sod the bullies.


spoken like a true Brit!!!!!:clap2:

Think most people on this forum feel the same.

Long live the Republic of Cyprus!!! (even if it is flat broke for a while)


----------



## buster12

bwfcwood said:


> We have read this thread with interest, trepidation, despair, bewilderment and anger. We have talked long into the night wondering how this will affect Cyprus, and selfishly, how it will affect us and our planned move. As a sensible couple, not prone to taking risks we finally thought.....****** it, we are still coming!!! Cyprus will get through this and we'll come along and lend a hand. The house is sold and we expect to complete by mid May. It may not be the wisest move we ever make but sometimes you have to go with your heart......and sod the bullies.


Hear, hear! we have just been through the same process but with more focus and urgency as our container has just been packed and left for the port! House sold, complete tomorrow and we will be there in mid-April......

I am sure the resilience of the Cypriot people will help them overcome the inevitable difficult times ahead for the country - and we will do our utmost to do our bit with them.

Good luck with your move,

David & Christine


----------



## bwfcwood

Thanks Martyn, Dave & Christine,
Good luck with the move.....see you soon


----------



## MartynKSA

Vegaanders said:


> I just refuse to say or think that Cyprus is destroyed. Its up to the cypriots to prove it. Cyprus is still there with all its positive things. For me its still the dream we will live.
> 
> Anders


OK Anders- you can be an honorary Brit!!!!


----------



## MartynKSA

PeteandSylv said:


> The taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it is a definition of theft.
> 
> Pete


Theft Act 1968, if remember correctly?


----------



## parkey

Hi signed in this morning in order to see reaction of people living in Cyprus. 

RT Russian Television reported that the future of Cyprus looks bleek because of the Russian money invested there will be withdrawn asap. The weathy and well connected had the tip off from your government some time ago and have already moved the money out of the country. Some of the money is reported to belong to the mafia. RT sugested that Cyprus would not survive in the way it has in the past with out this investment.

A bank levy will be imposed on the people and severe osterity measures will be applied for the foreseeable future. As far as i can see osterity means stealing more money from poor people by increasing taxes. 

Latest news suggests that the levy will be 30 to 40% of accounts holding more than 100k.
Cyprus government has reached a deal but is still 7 billion short of the required figure.
The opinion is that this will be repeated in about 6 weeks and you will be robbed of more money. 
Make no mistake the world is watching the Cyprus situation, this type of theft may spread to the rest of europe. 
It has also been suggested that Cyprus is being used as a test case to see the reaction of the people before moving on to other EU countries. 
I am just repeating what is being reported on main stream news.

The people of Cyprus are not alone, you have the support of the ordinary people thoughout Europe, some how you have to resist the EU money grab policy. 

From a personal point of view, this levy is theft of personal private bank accounts, lawful theft. 
If the wonderful EU is prepared to do this, what does the future hold for it's members, we now know what they are prepared to do to save the euro there jobs and power.

Look outside the box and ask what is really going on, could this have something to do with gas and oil reserves found of your coast. Will the people of Cyprus see the benefit of this additional revenue, is it part of the bailout deal?.

Sorry about the spelling did not have time for a spell check.


----------



## Guest

parkey said:


> Hi signed in this morning in order to see reaction of people living in Cyprus.
> 
> RT Russian Television reported that the future of Cyprus looks bleek because of the Russian money invested there will be withdrawn asap. The weathy and well connected had the tip off from your government some time ago and have already moved the money out of the country. Some of the money is reported to belong to the mafia. RT sugested that Cyprus would not survive in the way it has in the past with out this investment.
> 
> A bank levy will be imposed on the people and severe osterity measures will be applied for the foreseeable future. As far as i can see osterity means stealing more money from poor people by increasing taxes.
> 
> Latest news suggests that the levy will be 30 to 40% of accounts holding more than 100k.
> Cyprus government has reached a deal but is still 7 billion short of the required figure.
> The opinion is that this will be repeated in about 6 weeks and you will be robbed of more money.
> Make no mistake the world is watching the Cyprus situation, this type of theft may spread to the rest of europe.
> It has also been suggested that Cyprus is being used as a test case to see the reaction of the people before moving on to other EU countries.
> I am just repeating what is being reported on main stream news.
> 
> The people of Cyprus are not alone, you have the support of the ordinary people thoughout Europe, some how you have to resist the EU money grab policy.
> 
> From a personal point of view, this levy is theft of personal private bank accounts, lawful theft.
> If the wonderful EU is prepared to do this, what does the future hold for it's members, we now know what they are prepared to do to save the euro there jobs and power.
> 
> Look outside the box and ask what is really going on, could this have something to do with gas and oil reserves found of your coast. Will the people of Cyprus see the benefit of this additional revenue, is it part of the bailout deal?.
> 
> Sorry about the spelling did not have time for a spell check.


I must say that I have read a lot but not much that I disagree so much on as this

How can Cyprus government miss 7 billion when the claim was 5,8 billion

But ofc relaying on RT is an explanation.

Anders


----------



## parkey

Hi that is what is being reported on rt, bbc and itv this morning, I am only passing on the news as i see it.
This bailout has been going on for 9 months as Cyprus needs 17 billion. This deal as reported is only to stop Cyprus from bankrupt. Cyprus needs a further 7 billion to fix the problem.
I agree the figure reported was 5.8 billion, the latest figures have emerged in the last few days. Just goes to show you cannot believe all you here from the media or governments.


----------



## Guest

parkey said:


> Hi that is what is being reported on rt, bbc and itv this morning, I am only passing on the news as i see it.
> This bailout has been going on for 9 months as Cyprus needs 17 billion. This deal as reported is only to stop Cyprus from bankrupt. Cyprus needs a further 7 billion to fix the problem.
> I agree the figure reported was 5.8 billion, the latest figures have emerged in the last few days. Just goes to show you cannot believe all you here from the media or governments.


For sure not from RT

There is thousands of rumors around and I will personally wait until the terms get official. Spreading rumors only hurt


----------



## parkey

Hi just a thought. If Cyprus only needed 5.8 billion why has it dealt on 10 billion.


----------



## Guest

parkey said:


> Hi just a thought. If Cyprus only needed 5.8 billion why has it dealt on 10 billion.


They will get 10 Billion from EU/IMF. They need to find 5,8 themselves + raise corporate tax + Capital gains tax + more. Transferring Greek branches of BOC and Laiki will also ease the need for cash

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

MartynKSA said:


> Theft Act 1968, if remember correctly?


Dunno. Never been a thief!!!



Honest Pete


----------



## Guest

Swedish news now say that Putins puppy Medvedev has said that its stealing and that Russia must consider to tax some German companies bank accounts in Russia or freeze them

:clap2:


----------



## NoEuro

The much needed gas that Russia is selling to Europe will soon become very expensive, mark my words.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

parkey said:


> Hi that is what is being reported on rt, bbc and itv this morning, I am only passing on the news as i see it.
> This bailout has been going on for 9 months as Cyprus needs 17 billion. This deal as reported is only to stop Cyprus from bankrupt. Cyprus needs a further 7 billion to fix the problem.
> I agree the figure reported was 5.8 billion, the latest figures have emerged in the last few days. Just goes to show you cannot believe all you here from the media or governments.


I think you may have misunderstood. Cyprus needs €17Bn. The Eurogroup agreed to a €10bn bailout and left €7bn for Cyprus to find. 

Of this, €7bn, a total a €1.2bn was found in proposed rises in corporation tax, and duties on tobacco alcohol etc. The EU, however, rejected Cypriot proposals to restructure pension funds and insisted on the remaining €5.8bn coming from the banking sector.


----------



## parkey

Hi Ok that was not explained in the news, hope you are right, but only time will tell.


----------



## PeteandSylv

As this thread has gone quiet I thought I would put a post celebrating my continued respect for the EU Punch & Judy show!

The BBC tells us: _Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister who as head of the Eurogroup played a key role in the Cyprus negotiations_

It also tells us of this man: _Became Netherlands finance minister four months ago and took over as chair of Eurogroup in January_

and of his experience: _No previous experience in finance but studied agricultural economics and business_

It does not say whether he qualified in anything.

Impressed?

Pete


----------



## Guest

Swedish news now report that Pireus bank has taken over the Greek operations from BoC, Laiki and Hellenic bank. Price 540 million Euro


----------



## Geraldine

PeteandSylv said:


> As this thread has gone quiet I thought I would put a post celebrating my continued respect for the EU Punch & Judy show!
> 
> The BBC tells us: _Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch finance minister who as head of the Eurogroup played a key role in the Cyprus negotiations_
> 
> It also tells us of this man: _Became Netherlands finance minister four months ago and took over as chair of Eurogroup in January_
> 
> and of his experience: _No previous experience in finance but studied agricultural economics and business_
> 
> It does not say whether he qualified in anything.
> 
> Impressed?
> 
> Pete


I think that is fairly obvious..


----------



## kempo23

When you consider that 17bn euros is almost equivalent to the Cyprus GDP, its no wonder every economist is predicting a very bleak future for Cyprus.


----------



## bwfcwood

Jeroen Dijsselbloem has now set the financial markets on a downer by insinuating that the Cyprus bailout could be the model for future EU bailouts.....he then tried to backtrack by saying the Cyprus situation was 'unique'.....he's obviously well qualified in putting his foot in it. Prize fool


----------



## NoEuro

I can inform you: The only working practice of the now Norwegian Environmental Department Minister: A former part-time mailman. He wasn't offered a fulltime employment there (in the Mail Carrying Service) for some reason... His Political Party membership papers are excellent, though... And he's not old enough to understand anything...

This is really going to hell...


----------



## davidogden

why shuoldthe European Union be any different to anywhere else they are polititions who have the gift of the gab but cannot hold down a normal jobs never trust them, i have given up voting for them


----------



## David_&_Letitia

davidogden said:


> why shuoldthe European Union be any different to anywhere else they are polititions who have the gift of the gab but cannot hold down a normal jobs never trust them, i have given up voting for them


The main trouble with most UK politicians now (both those in Govt and Opposition) is that they are *career* politicians. They have gone straight from university into politics and have no experience of much else.

There used to be a time when captains of industry, ex Armed Forces personnel and ordinary working folk from all walks of life would go into politics late in life because they wanted to make a difference. Such people would bring a wealth of knowledge to Parliament and had both vision and perspective. Nowadays, it seems that if you study politics or economics at university and want a cushy lifestyle with an enormous pension to look forward to, the route to take ends up at Westrminster.


----------



## MacManiac

I can't remember who suggested it but some years ago there was a (serious?) proposal that all MPs should be paid the National Minimum Wage. There was a predictable outcry with some even going as far as saying that it was not possible to live in London on that little ... it makes you think about politicians the world over putting foot in mouth and talking out of their a***s.


----------



## virgil

“_We are looking at a very grim future for Cyprus,” said Michael Olympios, chairman of the Cyprus Investor Association, a lobbying group. “Even firm believers in European project like myself see now that it was a bad idea and that we should have at least stayed out of the euro_.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/w...sis-in-cyprus.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&emc=eta1


----------



## Guest

I have really never before seen such a frontal attack on the former president and Government and it would probably not be possible before either. 

Our View: Investigation needs to go ahead even if no one is ultimately jailed - Cyprus Mail


----------



## PeteandSylv

virgil said:


> “_We are looking at a very grim future for Cyprus,” said Michael Olympios, chairman of the Cyprus Investor Association, a lobbying group. “Even firm believers in European project like myself see now that it was a bad idea and that we should have at least stayed out of the euro_.”
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/27/w...sis-in-cyprus.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&emc=eta1


This article is a focussed and damning indictment of the incompetence, ignorance and vindictive nature of the EU administration and equally does not pull any punches with regard to the Cyprus government and banks.

It's clear focus on the power of Germany to control the EU should strike fear into every EU member. The EU is not a union and is not working except in the eyes of the politicians in charge.

It's a continuation of the Human Story. How very few can cause severe pain to so many.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I have really never before seen such a frontal attack on the former president and Government and it would probably not be possible before either.
> 
> Our View: Investigation needs to go ahead even if no one is ultimately jailed - Cyprus Mail


I have seen similar attacks on the Idiot President before and they came from this paper who have consistently condemned this arrogant incompetent and his refusal to ever accept responsibility for anything.

Nothing is likely to happen from any investigation but if it serves to weaken his party and their ridiculous Communist traits and expose what he did with the country's money it will be progress.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> I have seen similar attacks on the Idiot President before and they came from this paper who have consistently condemned this arrogant incompetent and his refusal to ever accept responsibility for anything.
> 
> Nothing is likely to happen from any investigation but if it serves to weaken his party and their ridiculous Communist traits and expose what he did with the country's money it will be progress.
> 
> Pete


The part about Laiki is interesting. I saw somewhre else that they got 9 billions last year. If I had an account there I would react.

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> The part about Laiki is interesting. I saw somewhre else that they got 9 billions last year. If I had an account there I would react.
> 
> Anders


How, in practical terms, would you react?

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> How, in practical terms, would you react?
> 
> Pete


To move my money somewhere else, and I am sure many of the big deposits are gone before the crisis

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> To move my money somewhere else, and I am sure many of the big deposits are gone before the crisis
> 
> Anders


But as you should realise you cannot move your money somewhere else for 2 reasons: 1. The banks are shut 2. There is nowhere else.

Deposits in Laiki below €100k are perfectly safe and will be move to BofC. I am sure BofC will be paying less interest than Laiki as before the crisis and I'm sure we'll be seeing much higher charges.

As for the big deposits being moved before the crisis there was no report or indication of this and to the contrary there were reports of the private Russian jets flying in to attempt to retrieve money when the crisis hit.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> But as you should realise you cannot move your money somewhere else for 2 reasons: 1. The banks are shut 2. There is nowhere else.
> 
> Deposits in Laiki below €100k are perfectly safe and will be move to BofC. I am sure BofC will be paying less interest than Laiki as before the crisis and I'm sure we'll be seeing much higher charges.
> 
> As for the big deposits being moved before the crisis there was no report or indication of this and to the contrary there were reports of the private Russian jets flying in to attempt to retrieve money when the crisis hit.
> 
> Pete


I realize that but 8 months ago when Laiki got 9 billion from ECB to survive the banks were not closed. And there were ofc options at that time

Soon Cyprus-Swede Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

Vegaanders said:


> I realize that but 8 months ago when Laiki got 9 billion from ECB to survive the banks were not closed. And there were ofc options at that time
> 
> Soon Cyprus-Swede Anders


A bit of a hindsight view, Anders. When that 9 billion was put into Laiki it was to make it safe, therefore to assume it was safe was not unreasonable at the time.

Pete


----------



## Guest

PeteandSylv said:


> A bit of a hindsight view, Anders. When that 9 billion was put into Laiki it was to make it safe, therefore to assume it was safe was not unreasonable at the time.
> 
> Pete


Point Taken, but still I think the big dragons acted and made the situation worse.

But anyone seen this?

Cyprus Capital Control Details Revealed | Zero Hedge

Anders


----------



## oronero

Another view of the fiasco that started in Cyprus and probably not the last use of this model either!

Activist Post: The Global Elite Are Very Clearly Telling Us That They Plan To Raid Our Bank Accounts

I hope you all are coping as best you can, there is little more that I can say.


----------



## davidogden

Yes this is a big wakeup call for many people but no reason to panic just start taking precautions diversify your savings. Gold and silver will rise but be aware governments will step in to restrict trade or make money from dealings.

There is one way return to bartering, certianly for day to day items places like streetbank.com seem to be a good idea it works great in the UK and could work anywhere.


----------



## Veronica

It seems that this is actually not the first time that depositors in a bank have been hit.
It happened in the Netherlands in February this although on a smaller scale. 
Guess who was the orchestrator?


Announcing a €3.7bn bailout of mortgage lender SNS Reaal, Dutch finance minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem said in a statement he had “looked at every alternative involving private parties”, but found none that could guarantee the stability of the Dutch banking system. An earlier plan to have ING and ABN Amro, two other bailed-out institutions, rescue SNS had been blocked by the European Commission on state-aid 
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Netherlands rescues SNS in €3.7bn bailout - FT.com


Under the terms of SNS’s rescue, shareholders and subordinated debt holders will see their stakes wiped out. There will be a writedown of the subordinated creditors to the tune of €1bn.

The state will inject €2.2bn in new capital, while forgiving €800m the bank still owed from its earlier bailout during the financial crisis. It will also write off €700m in the value of the bank’s real estate assets.

“I can sympathise easily with the resistance many will feel because we again will need to use a large amount of public money,” Mr Dijsselbloem said. “This is why I want the private sector to pay as large a share as possible of the rescue of SNS Reaal.”

In addition, the government will levy a one-time tariff of €1bn on Dutch banks in 2014 as a contribution to restoring the health of the financial sector.

SNS, whose chairman, chief executive and finance director all resigned, had found itself in trouble after its foreign loan portfolio – much of it in Spain – had suffered extreme losses.


----------



## Guest

I thought that everyone had a run at the banks, this thread went dead

Now its 1 day less staying here. Cyprus here we soon come!!:clap2:


----------



## PeteandSylv

Veronica said:


> It seems that this is actually not the first time that depositors in a bank have been hit.
> It happened in the Netherlands in February this although on a smaller scale.
> Guess who was the orchestrator?
> 
> 
> Announcing a €3.7bn bailout of mortgage lender SNS Reaal, Dutch finance minister Jeroen Dijsselbloem said in a statement he had “looked at every alternative involving private parties”, but found none that could guarantee the stability of the Dutch banking system. An earlier plan to have ING and ABN Amro, two other bailed-out institutions, rescue SNS had been blocked by the European Commission on state-aid
> High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Netherlands rescues SNS in €3.7bn bailout - FT.com
> 
> 
> Under the terms of SNS’s rescue, shareholders and subordinated debt holders will see their stakes wiped out. There will be a writedown of the subordinated creditors to the tune of €1bn.
> 
> The state will inject €2.2bn in new capital, while forgiving €800m the bank still owed from its earlier bailout during the financial crisis. It will also write off €700m in the value of the bank’s real estate assets.
> 
> “I can sympathise easily with the resistance many will feel because we again will need to use a large amount of public money,” Mr Dijsselbloem said. “This is why I want the private sector to pay as large a share as possible of the rescue of SNS Reaal.”
> 
> In addition, the government will levy a one-time tariff of €1bn on Dutch banks in 2014 as a contribution to restoring the health of the financial sector.
> 
> SNS, whose chairman, chief executive and finance director all resigned, had found itself in trouble after its foreign loan portfolio – much of it in Spain – had suffered extreme losses.


The English expression for this is "****ting on your own doorstep".

Pete


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> It seems that this is actually not the first time that depositors in a bank have been hit.
> It happened in the Netherlands in February this although on a smaller scale.
> Guess who was the orchestrator?
> 
> Under the terms of SNS’s rescue, shareholders and subordinated debt holders will see their stakes wiped out. There will be a writedown of the subordinated creditors to the tune of €1bn.


It’s not quite the same, as SNS Reall was nationalised, but nevertheless, Dijsselbloem had come up with some weird and wonderful conditions which saw ‘Junior’ Bondholders lose all their money whilst ‘Senior’ Bondholders were safe! 

There is an article in the NY Times about it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/09/b...all&adxnnlx=1364498753-NawP9NgrzNsnqQMejFmZhw

Quotes from this article:

_“…Mr. Dijsselbloem, in a letter to the Dutch Parliament explaining his punishment of the SNS junior bondholders, said he had not also imposed losses on investors holding senior debt, even though he acknowledged he was tempted to do so. Those who hold senior bonds stand in line ahead of junior bondholders to get repaid if a bank fails, which is why those securities are deemed less risky and carry a lower interest rate. Dutch banks in particular rely on senior bonds to finance their operations”.”_

And

_“What makes all of this much more than a Dutch novelty is the new clout of the country’s finance minister, Jeroen Dijsselbloem. Mr. Dijsselbloem has just been voted head of the Eurogroup, the powerful club of 17 national finance ministers who effectively set financial policy for the euro currency union. 
There is a new financial sheriff in the euro zone, in other words. And his disciplinarian bent could hold tremendous sway as the euro zone continues to work through a to-do list of bank bailouts, including ones now pending in Italy and Cyprus. The Dijsselbloem doctrine could mean that bondholders of failing Italian banks or — even more radically, bank depositors in Cyprus — may end up absorbing steep losses if euro zone members are called upon to prop up the institutions.” _

Footnote: SNS was offering an interest rate of 6%. When things seem too good to be true, they usually are! I remember that Icesave was offering the best interest rates before it went bust.


----------



## Tilley

It seems a bit odd to read on the net that the people of Cyprus and any Ex-pats blame everyone but themselves for this burning German Flags and EU flags etc 

Has the EU brought about ruin to Cyprus? No their own government/politicians and the bankers did that themselves.

Furthermore they were offered the 'haircut' (ie the spread the grief across your population) option but the Government of Cyprus turned it down and let the Laiki Bank go bankrupt.

What is in place now is just a standard, corporate insolvancey of a private buisness, companies go bankrupt every day all over the world, including banks occassionally.

Laiki depositors will just be creditors of a bankrupt bank waiting in line in seniority order, after shareholders, bondholders and then depositors.

People don't seem to understand that putting money in a bank is not the same as putting it in a secure vault. It's a loan to a bank from an individual, to do with as the banks sees fit (obvioulsy whilst staying within the law of that land).

The chances are the higher interest rate they give you for your deposits that they are taking more risks with your money.

Caveat Emptor when you stick more than 100,000 euros (£85,000) in any bank unfortunatelty for some reason people do not seem to understand this.

Presumably the now10 billion bailout is just to secure everybodys deposits up to 100,000, as Cyprus hasn't even got enough money to bail out it's own banks.

So it isn't really going to help the Country get back on its feet, its just to help restructure the banks and aid the transition during the good bank/bad bank administrative process, whilst they fully close down Laiki.

If the EU hadn't coughed up the 10 billion, then even the 100,000 guarantee would not have happened. that should be a sobering thought for those blaming the EU for asking Cyprus to get it's financial house in order.

What will happen if another Cyprus Bank goes under like Lailki has ? Will the EU continue to bail out in view of what they may have seen this time round, who knows ? Probably yes though as they dont want the Euro to fail.

I sincerely hope the burning of German flags is just because people are angry as when the crunch came Russia obviously couldn't care less all they want is a holiday island in the sun close to home.


----------



## Guest

Tilley said:


> It seems a bit odd to read on the net that the people of Cyprus and any Ex-pats blame everyone but themselves for this burning German Flags and EU flags etc
> 
> Has the EU brought about ruin to Cyprus? No their own government/politicians and the bankers did that themselves.
> 
> Furthermore they were offered the 'haircut' (ie the spread the grief across your population) option but the Government of Cyprus turned it down and let the Laiki Bank go bankrupt.
> 
> What is in place now is just a standard, corporate insolvancey of a private buisness, companies go bankrupt every day all over the world, including banks occassionally.
> 
> Laiki depositors will just be creditors of a bankrupt bank waiting in line in seniority order, after shareholders, bondholders and then depositors.
> 
> People don't seem to understand that putting money in a bank is not the same as putting it in a secure vault. It's a loan to a bank from an individual, to do with as the banks sees fit (obvioulsy whilst staying within the law of that land).
> 
> The chances are the higher interest rate they give you for your deposits that they are taking more risks with your money.
> 
> Caveat Emptor when you stick more than 100,000 euros (£85,000) in any bank unfortunatelty for some reason people do not seem to understand this.
> 
> Presumably the now10 billion bailout is just to secure everybodys deposits up to 100,000, as Cyprus hasn't even got enough money to bail out it's own banks.
> 
> So it isn't really going to help the Country get back on its feet, its just to help restructure the banks and aid the transition during the good bank/bad bank administrative process, whilst they fully close down Laiki.
> 
> If the EU hadn't coughed uo the 10 billion, then even the 100,000 guarantee would not have happened.
> 
> I sincerelyy hope the burning of German flags is just because people are angry as when the crunch came Russia obviously couldn't care less all they want is a holiday island in the sun close to home.


Will be interesting to see what you write when Spain come in the same situation. Unfortunatly EU will pump in a lot of Euro as they have done before. 

At least Cyprus dont have a rotten property market as Spain has. How many 100000 homes are now with the banks?

Anders


----------



## Tilley

Vegaanders said:


> Will be interesting to see what you write when Spain come in the same situation. Unfortunatly EU will pump in a lot of Euro as they have done before.
> 
> At least Cyprus dont have a rotten property market as Spain has. How many 100000 homes are now with the banks?
> 
> Anders


So you dont really address any of my points ? Just decide to 'have a go' at Spain. 

That is a shame, I thought their might be a little bit more of an interlectual debate. Obvioulsy need to go back to the Spainish forum for that.

Or maybe it is just that there are no real agruments and what I posted sort of sums up the situation in a lay persons terms, (obvioulsy I am not in the Banking or Finance industry).


----------



## Guest

Tilley said:


> So you dont really address any of my points ? Just decide to 'have a go' at Spain.
> 
> That is a shame, I thought their might be a little bit more of an interlectual debate. Obvioulsy need to go back to the Spainish forum for that.
> 
> Or maybe it is just that there are no real agruments and what I posted sort of sums up the situation in a lay persons terms, (obvioulsy I am not in the Banking or Finance industry).


Can you start with explaining to me what is the difference between Spain and Cyprus in terms of ending up in this ****? You seem to have an opinion about that

Sorry I have no time for longer discussions, but we are packing for moving to Cyprus in a few days

Anders


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## Tilley

I think I will leave this debate to be honest as I can tell you are just going to attack other Countrys etc, also whatever I put I dont think this is a good time for you to try and compose replies. I was totally unaware that you were moving today, for which I apologise, it is a stressful enough process in itself ,without all else that goes on. I wish you well with the move and hope it is straightforward (or as straightforward as it can be at present) when you get to Cyprus and that it is all that you hope for, things do have a way of working themselves out.


----------



## roberda

Tilley said:


> I think I will leave this debate to be honest as I can tell you are just going to attack other Countrys etc, also whatever I put I dont think this is a good time for you to try and compose replies. I was totally unaware that you were moving today, for which I apologise, it is a stressful enough process in itself ,without all else that goes on. I wish you well with the move and hope it is straightforward (or as straightforward as it can be at present) when you get to Cyprus and that it is all that you hope for, things do have a way of working themselves out.


I think we in Cyprus are completely worn out with debate, but it was nice of you to engage in the tread


----------



## roberda

Vegaanders said:


> Can you start with explaining to me what is the difference between Spain and Cyprus in terms of ending up in this ****? You seem to have an opinion about that
> 
> Sorry I have no time for longer discussions, but we are packing for moving to Cyprus in a few days
> 
> Anders


And were in Cyprus will you be???? have a good trip.....lane:


----------



## Guest

roberda said:


> And were in Cyprus will you be???? have a good trip.....lane:


WE really dont know yet, we can work fromanywhere. We will find a place when we come down, we start with an apartment in Papahos for 2 weeks. We will go with Grimaldi and bring the car so we arrive to Limassol the 10 April.

Anders


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## Geraldine

Vegaanders said:


> WE really dont know yet, we can work fromanywhere. We will find a place when we come down, we start with an apartment in Papahos for 2 weeks. We will go with Grimaldi and bring the car so we arrive to Limassol the 10 April.
> 
> Anders


Have a safe crossing:fingerscrossed:


----------



## PeteandSylv

It seems a bit odd to read on the net that the people of Cyprus and any Ex-pats blame everyone but themselves for this burning German Flags and EU flags etc  This could not be further from the truth. Anti German or EU feeling has stemmed from the extraordinary way the German led EU has demanded punishment for Cyprus which was very different from the treatment given to Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. I may have missed this but I have not seen any flag burning at all.

Has the EU brought about ruin to Cyprus? No their own government/politicians and the bankers did that themselves. I and many others have been pointing out the inadequacies of the Idiot President and his government on forums while the Cyprus Mail has continuously campaigned. The current crisis was a direct consequence of the EU "haircut" of the Greek bonds.

Furthermore they were offered the 'haircut' (ie the spread the grief across your population) option but the Government of Cyprus turned it down and let the Laiki Bank go bankrupt. Laiki bank has not gone bankrupt but at the demand of the EU is being wound down as part of a process to make the Cyprus banking sector smaller. Refusing the original theft demands safeguarded smaller investors and was the result of the parliamentary process involving all parties and was correct in my view.

What is in place now is just a standard, corporate insolvancey of a private buisness, companies go bankrupt every day all over the world, including banks occassionally. Which private business are you referring to here?

Laiki depositors will just be creditors of a bankrupt bank waiting in line in seniority order, after shareholders, bondholders and then depositors. You clearly do not understand the process that is being put in place. The depositors <€100k will be moved to BofC, the remaining ones will have a percentage deduction but their deposits will exist. There are no creditors because Laiki is not bankrupt.

People don't seem to understand that putting money in a bank is not the same as putting it in a secure vault. It's a loan to a bank from an individual, to do with as the banks sees fit (obvioulsy whilst staying within the law of that land). That is factually wrong as there are strict regulations on what banks may do with deposited money which is repayable on demand according to contract. It is the unwise/illegal use of this money that has necessitated regulatory laws including the minimum €100k guarantee required by the EU.

The chances are the higher interest rate they give you for your deposits that they are taking more risks with your money. This can be true

Caveat Emptor when you stick more than 100,000 euros (£85,000) in any bank unfortunatelty for some reason people do not seem to understand this. Probably because because people like you are always very wise after the event. I did not notice you posting any helpful advice prior to the crisis. It is also worthy of note that Banks had a traditional high level of trust in people's eyes and this has diminished over the last 5 years thanks to the American Banks success at selling poor products to EU banks.

Presumably the now10 billion bailout is just to secure everybodys deposits up to 100,000, as Cyprus hasn't even got enough money to bail out it's own banks.

So it isn't really going to help the Country get back on its feet, its just to help restructure the banks and aid the transition during the good bank/bad bank administrative process, whilst they fully close down Laiki. The money that is available from the bailout to run the country will certainly help provided the government uses it wisely.

If the EU hadn't coughed up the 10 billion, then even the 100,000 guarantee would not have happened. that should be a sobering thought for those blaming the EU for asking Cyprus to get it's financial house in order. That was the whole point of the bailouts here and in the other EU countries that received them.

What will happen if another Cyprus Bank goes under like Laiki has ? Will the EU continue to bail out in view of what they may have seen this time round, who knows ? Probably yes though as they dont want the Euro to fail. One would hope that the EU having done it's homework would have offered enough bailout with enough conditions for this not to happen. The chances are this will be tested but not in Cyprus, will it be Spain or Italy next?

I sincerely hope the burning of German flags is just because people are angry as when the crunch came Russia obviously couldn't care less all they want is a holiday island in the sun close to home. The only reference to burning German flags I can find took place in Greece. This is Cyprus. It is a different place.

I'm not really sure what the intent of your rant was. You have condemned Cyprus and seem to be sympathetic towards the EU but haven't really put up a case why.

It may be more constructive to think in terms of why the EU decided to bully one of it's least significant members after bailing out so many others with far more cash. I'm not the only one who is concerned that the EU appears to be entirely dominated by Germany.

Pete


----------



## oronero

Initially when this levy was announced there was talk of exchanging the levied sums for the equivalent in shares for the relevant banks.

Are they still going to exchange the levied sum for an equal amount in the shares of the bank for those that have more than 100,000 Euros deposited?


----------



## Guest

oronero said:


> Initially when this levy was announced there was talk of exchanging the levied sums for the equivalent in shares for the relevant banks.
> 
> Are they still going to exchange the levied sum for an equal amount in the shares of the bank for those that have more than 100,000 Euros deposited?


The latest news is that 37,5 % will be taken and shares is given. But on top they will freeze 22,5 % more until they know that all 5,8 billion is met. Also this will be shares if money is needed.
Probably they dont know how much money has already left the bank somehow

Anders


----------



## oronero

Thanks for letting me know, I normally click on the 'like' button so that people know that I have read the post but that seems inappropriate on this. 

I have been scanning the thread in Portugal and Spain to see how they have responded to what has happened in Cyprus, there appears to be many people with their heads buried in the sand, believing that it will not happen in their nation.

Some other English forums have gone on about how this would never happen in the UK...FOOLS, never say never!


----------



## davidogden

I have just recieved the following from one of my financial Advisors

*Please share this important information with any Bank of Cyprus Depositors
Central Bank of Cyprus have announced the Haircut Terms for Bank of Cyprus Depositors. *
The First 100,000
Deposit guarantees will be honoured up to 100,000, this money remains available to you subject to capital controls on withdrawals out of cyprus and cash per day.
37.5% of Your Deposit Capital
Bank of Cyprus Depositors will be then be ' taxed' on all deposits over Euro100,000 at a rate of 37.5% in exchange for shares in the Bank..... 
That means this cash will disappear from your bank account. But you will get issued Bank of Cyprus share certificates at today's value , that will equal the same 37.5% capital value today. But that is before the Cyprus Stock markets open again. When they do the loss of confidence in the Bank of Cyprus is almost certain to see a fall in the share prices.
The value of shares can rise and fall, you may also be paid a dividend if the bank is profitable. But that will not be until the balance sheet is rebuilt.
The Next 22.5% of your Deposit Capital
But 22.5% of Deposits will be blocked with no interest. You will not be able to draw capital or receive any interest for an indeterminent period of time until the Bank 'does well' again.
The Last 40% of your Deposit Capital
The remaining 40% will be blocked with interest paid. 
We have not received confirmation if this interest will be available to pay or just accrue.
The Blocked deposits will be repaid 'when' the Bank of Cyprus 'does well' . 
Capital Controls may still apply at that time restricting access.
That will be after the EU and Germans & Cyprus Government are paid interest on the EU / IMF Bailout money. 
Do not expect to get access to this money any time soon. 
100% of Your Deposit Capital Locked away 
As a result of 'Taxes' & 'Capital Controls' 100% of your Bank of Cyprus Deposits is taken from you. There may in time be loan facilities against this blocked capital, but this is an unnecessary option given the law change.

What can you do? If the law changes are legal nothing. If the law changes can be challenged under EU law then they could be declared illegal.


----------



## Megsmum

oronero said:


> Thanks for letting me know, I normally click on the 'like' button so that people know that I have read the post but that seems inappropriate on this.
> 
> I have been scanning the thread in Portugal and Spain to see how they have responded to what has happened in Cyprus, there appears to be many people with their heads buried in the sand, believing that it will not happen in their nation.
> 
> Some other English forums have gone on about how this would never happen in the UK...FOOLS, never say never!


I don't think that others have their heads in the sand, I think that they are considering their options. The advantage they have is that now this has happened they have the opportunity to move money etc out of the countries they are living in and able to consider all the possibilities, what is the point of them getting involved in a debate when it is at this moment affecting only those in Cyprus, it is they who are having to deal with all these issues, no amount of pontificating from those outside is going to make any difference to the outcomes. Yes it could happen elsewhere, so could fire flood and pestilence, again no point in panicking.


----------



## PeteandSylv

Consider that not one so called and self appointed financial advisor anywhere predicted the EU demands for Cyprus.

The facts are the workings of banks have changed forever in the last 4/5 years and those bastions of integrity are no longer to be trusted than any other business you might buy products from. The huge difference is that I can choose many places and manufacturers next time I want to buy a TV but I can't when it comes to finding somewhere to safeguard my money.

So all the after-the-event commentators don't impress me as most of the comments are negative and none are offering any constructive advice. The reason for this is simply because they just don't know.

Pete


----------



## Veronica

The only experience I have had with financial advisors is being lied to, being given very bad advice and being the totally wrong product for our needs despite telling the FA exactly what we needed.
In addition the majority of people who bought Alpha Panareti properties bought them because their FAs told them they were a good investment. Again these people were lied to, some were told the properties were in Coral Bay when in fact they are in Tremithousa, others were told their properties were on the sea front in Geroskipou when in fact they are above the motorway in an industrial area.

So my advice is stay well away from financial advisors because they are only interested in earning as much commission as they can and don't give a hoot about safeguarding your investments.


----------



## Megsmum

Veronica said:


> The only experience I have had with financial advisors is being lied to, being given very bad advice and being the totallywronmg product for our needs depsite tellingthe FA exactly what wer needed.
> In addition the majority of people who bought Alpha Panareti properties bought them because thier FAs told them they were a good investment. Again these people were lied to, some were todlthe properties were in Coral Bay when in fact they are in Tremithousa, others were told their properties were on the sea front in Geroskipou when in fact they are above motorway in an industrial area.
> 
> So my advice is stay well away from financial advisors because they are only interested in earning as much commission as they can and don't give a hoot about safeguarding your investments.


this is agree with and is a universal fact imho...they offer advice based on their needs not yours in what ever country you are in


----------



## Guest

davidogden said:


> I have just recieved the following from one of my financial Advisors
> 
> *Please share this important information with any Bank of Cyprus Depositors
> Central Bank of Cyprus have announced the Haircut Terms for Bank of Cyprus Depositors. *
> The First 100,000
> Deposit guarantees will be honoured up to 100,000, this money remains available to you subject to capital controls on withdrawals out of cyprus and cash per day.
> 37.5% of Your Deposit Capital
> Bank of Cyprus Depositors will be then be ' taxed' on all deposits over Euro100,000 at a rate of 37.5% in exchange for shares in the Bank.....
> That means this cash will disappear from your bank account. But you will get issued Bank of Cyprus share certificates at today's value , that will equal the same 37.5% capital value today. But that is before the Cyprus Stock markets open again. When they do the loss of confidence in the Bank of Cyprus is almost certain to see a fall in the share prices.
> The value of shares can rise and fall, you may also be paid a dividend if the bank is profitable. But that will not be until the balance sheet is rebuilt.
> The Next 22.5% of your Deposit Capital
> But 22.5% of Deposits will be blocked with no interest. You will not be able to draw capital or receive any interest for an indeterminent period of time until the Bank 'does well' again.
> The Last 40% of your Deposit Capital
> The remaining 40% will be blocked with interest paid.
> We have not received confirmation if this interest will be available to pay or just accrue.
> The Blocked deposits will be repaid 'when' the Bank of Cyprus 'does well' .
> Capital Controls may still apply at that time restricting access.
> That will be after the EU and Germans & Cyprus Government are paid interest on the EU / IMF Bailout money.
> Do not expect to get access to this money any time soon.
> 100% of Your Deposit Capital Locked away
> As a result of 'Taxes' & 'Capital Controls' 100% of your Bank of Cyprus Deposits is taken from you. There may in time be loan facilities against this blocked capital, but this is an unnecessary option given the law change.
> 
> What can you do? If the law changes are legal nothing. If the law changes can be challenged under EU law then they could be declared illegal.



The limitations on bank cards arer taken away. 

I have not seen anything about the last 40%. Until I do I doubt it is true

Anders


----------



## MartynKSA

Vegaanders said:


> The limitations on bank cards arer taken away.
> 
> I have not seen anything about the last 40%. Until I do I doubt it is true
> 
> Anders


Hi Anders- as I understand it, the remaining 40% of the over 100k deposits at the Bank of Cyprus will be "temporarily frozen for liquidity reasons", but continue to accrue existing levels of interest, plus another 10%, per the official announcement from the Central Bank 

[url=http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=12631


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## davidogden

Its strange you go out to help people providing valid information and people blow off on bad advice from financial advisors.

Over the years I have connected with many advisors who have become friends who 
I trust and on many occasions have steered me clear of trouble the fact that 
two of them know I am moving back to the island has resulted in daily updates which I appreciate,


----------



## Veronica

One major problem is that the companies who operate here are not regulated by the FSA as we found to our dismay. Having been told that they were regulated and working for one the well known names when we were blatantly missold and reported it to the FSA were told that any products sold outside the UK are not regulated by them.


----------



## Guest

davidogden said:


> Its strange you go out to help people providing valid information and people blow off on bad advice from financial advisors.
> 
> Over the years I have connected with many advisors who have become friends who
> I trust and on many occasions have steered me clear of trouble the fact that
> two of them know I am moving back to the island has resulted in daily updates which I appreciate,


If this was meant to me I just ask you how valid was the bank card limitations?

Anders


----------



## PeteandSylv

davidogden said:


> Its strange you go out to help people providing valid information and people blow off on bad advice from financial advisors.
> 
> Over the years I have connected with many advisors who have become friends who
> I trust and on many occasions have steered me clear of trouble the fact that
> two of them know I am moving back to the island has resulted in daily updates which I appreciate,


That's called marketing.

Pete


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## bencooper

There are supposedly some 60,000 British residents alone in Cyprus, many of whom must be "privileged" retirees - privileged because they have a steady, albeit in most cases, small income and not dependent upon employment. The best we can do to assist the Cyprus economy is to increase our spending locally, perhaps eating out more at our favourite restaurants etc. Tourism should not be affected too much (the god-given bounty of beautiful climate, countryside and beaches is surely not affected by the economic crisis) so long as the Cypriots keep the costs down and they may have to make some commitments here (trade down on the Mercedes/BMW/Audis etc).They may have to work the fields more as their parents did and repatriate the cheap foreign labour, maids etc. Any natural gas is a long way off and in any case should not be used as a get-out-of-jail-card. . .Cyprus existed quite well before without gas and windfalls such as this should be carefully managed for the benefit of future generations, not for paying off current largesse.


----------



## davidogden

Expats may be in a privaleged position but will only increase their spending locally if its is value for money. I am returning to Cyprus this month after 9 years absence and I expect to see alot of changes, I plan to buy local produce, which shuold be cheaper than imports however ibelieve that quality has fallen and prices have increased so that imports may present better value. I prefer to eat in becuase I like the food my wife cooks. We love fresh fruit and vegatables. Cyprus potatoes are great nad Ihave foundmemoriesof helping my self in the orange groves which appered to be abandoned.

Hopefully people will return to the land, that is what they aredoing in Greece. Somehowi do not see the locals willing to take on jobs now filled by cheap labour. I read in the Cyprus Mail that trade unions want 70% of jobs to be held by local Cypriots I cant see it happening in the areas of housekeeping can you.


----------



## PeteandSylv

bencooper said:


> There are supposedly some 60,000 British residents alone in Cyprus, many of whom must be "privileged" retirees - privileged because they have a steady, albeit in most cases, small income and not dependent upon employment.


Why on earth do you call this privileged? Is it a privilege to complete your working life and receive the income you have paid for?

I call it an entitlement in the next stage of life.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv

davidogden said:


> Expats may be in a privaleged position but will only increase their spending locally if its is value for money. I am returning to Cyprus this month after 9 years absence and I expect to see alot of changes, I plan to buy local produce, which shuold be cheaper than imports however ibelieve that quality has fallen and prices have increased so that imports may present better value. I prefer to eat in becuase I like the food my wife cooks. We love fresh fruit and vegatables. Cyprus potatoes are great nad Ihave foundmemoriesof helping my self in the orange groves which appered to be abandoned.
> 
> Hopefully people will return to the land, that is what they aredoing in Greece. Somehowi do not see the locals willing to take on jobs now filled by cheap labour. I read in the Cyprus Mail that trade unions want 70% of jobs to be held by local Cypriots I cant see it happening in the areas of housekeeping can you.


Why do you believe quality has fallen? Fruit and vegetables are superb and cheap most of the time. Meat is excellent with pork being exceptional value. Excellent quality beef steaks are available but at a price, I have no doubt that the best beef is imported. Lamb prices have come down now that the herds are being replenished and is delicious.

As far as people "returning" to the land, come out to the hills where we are and you will see the land being cultivated all year round with numerous crop types and herds of goats all over the place. Herds of sheep are also becoming more commonplace now. No "return" is necessary. 

I believe that we *will *see an increase of locals taking on some of the jobs filled by foreign labour. This will be most notable in family businesses where out of work family members will take the place of foreign workers.

Pete


----------



## davidogden

Pete,
I am not there yet I am reporting on what I have read, I have never found Pork chops anywhere else to match those in Cyprus am champing at the bit to move


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## Veronica

We have spoken to Cypriot businessmen who say they will be shedding staff in order to give the jobs to family members who have lost their jobs. This is the way of life in Cyprus, look after family first and IMO that is a good philosophy as long as the family members are capable of doing the jobs.

As for the sort of jobs Cypriots will do, no, housekeeping will undoubtably not be one but waiting on in restaurants, working in shops and simliar type jobs will probably be taken by young Cypriots as they are forced to face the realities of life.
A Cypriot neighbour of ours told us that children will have to adapt and accept that they cannot have evertything they want unless they are willing to work for it and I think many will look at it this way now.


----------



## David_&_Letitia

Here's an excellent (IMHO) article on the whole bailout history, published by Wikipedia yesterday. There may be nothing new here for those who have been keeping themselves fully abreast of what's been happenning, but for situational awareness, this is an interesting read with solid reference links to back up the assertions:

2012?2013 Cypriot financial crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## PeteandSylv

David_&_Letitia said:


> Here's an excellent (IMHO) article on the whole bailout history, published by Wikipedia yesterday. There may be nothing new here for those who have been keeping themselves fully abreast of what's been happenning, but for situational awareness, this is an interesting read with solid reference links to back up the assertions:
> 
> 2012?2013 Cypriot financial crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I think this is quite a fair summation of events and hope that it will be kept up to date particularly with regard to the Anastasiadis money transfer allegations, the truth of the percentage of Russian deposits in the banks and the truth of the extent of any money laundering.

It's a pity the article did not clarify the change of government at the critical time and the full extent of the Idiot President Christofias's negligence, obstinacy and alienation of the Troika. I do hope people reading it will follow the link to the article on the naval base explosion to realise just how significant this was in contributing to the financial problems.

Thanks for sharing the link.

Pete


----------



## DYNO

Hope all went well. Watching with interest.Nowhere near ready to up sticks but watching and learning.Used to live there when younger and have always wanted to return.Last hol loved and will look to move asap.

All advice welcome when you get settled.

Regards,

Chris and Jayne


----------



## virgil

Farage: You are common criminals! | Articles | UKIP MEPs


----------



## David_&_Letitia

virgil said:


> Farage: You are common criminals! | Articles | UKIP MEPs


The more I listen to Nigal Farage, the more I am persuaded. 

UKIP has absolutely no electoral chance of power, but just to hear someone tell it like it is (even though most will not listen) is really refreshing politics.

From the beginning of this thread, many have said that the raid was nothing short of (legalised?) theft. It is one thing for us ordinary folk to say such things. Farage is the only politician of any persuasion in any EU state that I have heard actually say it - and in the EU chamber too! Bravo!


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## lotuseater

What I'd like to know is this - UK expats took their hard-earned (and already taxed) savings to Cyprus when they moved there. This is because, as foreign nationals, they are not entitled to any state benefits. They cannot be a drain on the system - they have to be self sufficient.

So, now that the 'state' has taken [up to] 10% of their money will they be allowed to claim any kind of benefit from the state if they needed help?

It all seems grossly unfair!! And the rest of the EU is just letting this happen!!

It has to be said though, this only affects the south side of the island. UK expats on the north side are completely unaffected by this whole scandal.

My only advise (albeit too late) is if you have money, then split it up into amounts under 100,000 Euros and keep it in different banks - not just different accounts of the same bank....or move to the north side of the island and take your money with you!


----------



## travelling-man

lotuseater said:


> My only advise (albeit too late) is if you have money, then split it up into amounts under 100,000 Euros and keep it in different banks - not just different accounts of the same bank....or move to the north side of the island and take your money with you!


I'm no expert but think you'll find that the rule applies per person in the country not per person per bank account.

FWIW, I recently checked the rule in the UK & was told by Lloyds that only UKP50K per person is legally protected. Not per account or per bank but per person total.

Maybe Switzerland or other stable but non EU country might be a possible answer but I've no idea how hard it is to set up a Swiss account.

I think Farage is dead right. What they've done is outright theft & I'll take it a step further by saying the only people who are benefiting are the politicians & banksters & it was them that created the situation in the first place!


----------



## Veronica

lotuseater said:


> What I'd like to know is this - UK expats took their hard-earned (and already taxed) savings to Cyprus when they moved there. This is because, as foreign nationals, they are not entitled to any state benefits. They cannot be a drain on the system - they have to be self sufficient.
> 
> So, now that the 'state' has taken [up to] 10% of their money will they be allowed to claim any kind of benefit from the state if they needed help?
> 
> It all seems grossly unfair!! And the rest of the EU is just letting this happen!!
> 
> It has to be said though, this only affects the south side of the island. UK expats on the north side are completely unaffected by this whole scandal.
> 
> My only advise (albeit too late) is if you have money, then split it up into amounts under 100,000 Euros and keep it in different banks - not just different accounts of the same bank....or move to the north side of the island and take your money with you!


The vast majority of expats are in receipt of state retirement pensions which are ample to live on comfortably and as pensioners they are entitled to free health care at the state hospitals.
Those who are not at state retirement age and are here working should be paying into the Cyprus social insurance fund which entitles them to all the same benefits as Cypriots.
Those who are working and not paying into the social fund, not paying taxes etc because they work for cash in hand, only have themselves to blame if they fall on hard times and cannot get any benefits or free health care. 
As for moving to the North, most of us would never consider living in an illegally occupied state which is not recognised by the international community.


----------



## Veronica

travelling-man said:


> I think Farage is dead right. What they've done is outright theft & I'll take it a step further by saying the only people who are benefiting are the politicians & banksters & it was them that created the situation in the first place!


It was the previous government who are to blame (together with the banks)
The previous government took over a healthy, stable country and drove it into the ground. The new government were only in power for less than a month when everything collapsed around them, through no fault of their own. They have been left with the unenviable task of trying to sort out the mess.


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## travelling-man

It'd probably be more accurate to blame all Cy politicians since 1st May 2004 for the current mess but my point is the people who are paying the price are ordinary (EU) citizens & I'll bet there were precious few bankers & politicians who lost money in the 'haircut' and precious few who haven't made money out of the entire long running debacle. 

I personally think the trouble will spread but that at least some other affected countries will react differently & the 'haircut' idea will be kicked into touch.

I didn't see it on the news myself but am told a PT politician recently said during a TV interview that they'd abandon the Euro & possibly leave the EU rather than do that to the PT electorate.


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## David_&_Letitia

travelling-man said:


> I'm no expert but think you'll find that the rule applies per person in the country not per person per bank account.
> 
> FWIW, I recently checked the rule in the UK & was told by Lloyds that only UKP50K per person is legally protected. Not per account or per bank but per person total.


The UK scheme is £85,000 *per person* per *institution*. Some banks have merged and become part of the same institution, so for example if you had over £85k in different accounts in both the Bank of Scotland and Halifax Building Society, only a total of £85k is protected as they are both part of the same institution (HBOS). The Royal Bank of Scotland, Nat West and Ulster Bank are also the same institution (RBS). The scheme, administered by the FSCS, provides protection per person, (so a joint account gives £170k protection).


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## David_&_Letitia

Veronica said:


> It was the previous government who are to blame (together with the banks)
> The previous government took over a healthy, stable country and drove it into the ground.


“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” 

Margaret Thatcher


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## travelling-man

Not according to Lloyds it's not. They've twice recently (in the last 4 weeks) told me that only the first UKP50K of any individual is protected by current UK law.

On both occasions, I asked them to check if that meant per individual or per bank account etc and both times they checked and then told me it's only the first UKP50K any individual has in the country and not per account or per bank etc. 

I guess they might have been wrong on both occasions I asked but that is definitely what they told me..... I will however ask again the next time I call them.


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## Veronica

In Cyprus it is €100.000 per person per account. So for a couple with a joint account €200K is protected.


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## David_&_Letitia

travelling-man said:


> Not according to Lloyds it's not. They've twice recently (in the last 4 weeks) told me that only the first UKP50K of any individual is protected by current UK law.
> 
> On both occasions, I asked them to check if that meant per individual or per bank account etc and both times they checked and then told me it's only the first UKP50K any individual has in the country and not per account or per bank etc.
> 
> I guess they might have been wrong on both occasions I asked but that is definitely what they told me..... I will however ask again the next time I call them.


FSCS > Q&As about Deposits


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## travelling-man

I always thought it was UKP100K per account in the UK and was surprised when lloyds told me otherwise but they insist it's now only UKP50K per person.

Whether that's a new thing or not I have no idea.


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## travelling-man

David_&_Letitia said:


> FSCS > Q&As about Deposits


I took a quick look at that but does it:

A/ Apply to UK mainland banks only and/or to offshore? - FWIW, I bank offshore and it was them that gave me the info I mentioned.

B/ Apply only to banks failing or does it also apply to Govt/EUSSR inspired robbery such as has recently been seen in Cyprus?

It didn't occur to me to mention I was talking about offshore banks but it could of course possibly make a difference. Sorry about that.


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## David_&_Letitia

travelling-man said:


> I took a quick look at that but does it:
> 
> A/ Apply to UK mainland banks only and/or to offshore? - FWIW, I bank offshore and it was them that gave me the info I mentioned.
> 
> B/ Apply only to banks failing or does it also apply to Govt/EUSSR inspired robbery such as has recently been seen in Cyprus?


The FSCS scheme does not apply offshore - it it for UK governed banks and financial institutions only. I didn't realise that you banked offshore, in which case you would come under whatever governing authority applies to where your money is (and in some instances, there may be no financial protection whatsoever). As Veronica said, Euro 100k is covered in Cyprus - and this applies across the EU - (Deposit Protection Scheme). Of course, there is always a price to be paid for earning extra interest by banking offshore - protection is one of them.

Check our Martyn Lewis's web-site:

Are Your Savings Safe?: Full guide to protecting your cash...


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## travelling-man

I'll check the site out. Thanks. 

I don't bank offshore for extra interest and didn't think their rates are much different to mainland banks. They do however (or rather did when I started banking offshore) offer better services for the type of thing I need/used to need to do.


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## David_&_Letitia

travelling-man said:


> I took a quick look at that but does it:
> 
> B/ Apply only to banks failing or does it also apply to Govt/EUSSR inspired robbery such as has recently been seen in Cyprus?


It only applies to *failed* banking institutions. The outrageous view of the Troika originally was that the Cypriot Banks had not failed and therefore the DPS would not apply. Thankfully, the Cypriot Govt rejected the original plan which would have hit savers with less than Euro 100k with a 'Bank Tax'. However, the damage has been done to investors confidence around the world now.


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## travelling-man

David_&_Letitia said:


> It only applies to *failed* banking institutions. The outrageous view of the Troika originally was that the Cypriot Banks had not failed and therefore the DPS would not apply. Thankfully, the Cypriot Govt rejected the original plan which would have hit savers with less than Euro 100k with a 'Bank Tax'. *However, the damage has been done to investors confidence around the world now.*


It certainly scared the ****e out of me! LOL!

I'm currently keeping what I have in UKP and offshore and only bringing into Portugal what I need and am not at all convinced that even that is enough protection.

I'll obviously be very interested to see what happens if and/or when the contagion etc spreads and what other countries will do. My guess is some at least will pull out of the Euro and also probably the EU rather than sell the people of the country into financial slavery for lifetimes to come.


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## Tilley

travelling-man said:


> Not according to Lloyds it's not. They've twice recently (in the last 4 weeks) told me that only the first UKP50K of any individual is protected by current UK law.
> 
> On both occasions, I asked them to check if that meant per individual or per bank account etc and both times they checked and then told me it's only the first UKP50K any individual has in the country and not per account or per bank etc.
> 
> I guess they might have been wrong on both occasions I asked but that is definitely what they told me..... I will however ask again the next time I call them.


Unless it has changed in the last couple of days, this information is completely wrong.

It's £85,000 and it is also per financial instituation, although obvioulsy you need to check that different named companies are not part of the same overall financial institution eg the Nationwide and Lloyds are different, but under the Bank of Scotland there are endless brands.

Ergo two different financial institutions £170,000 covered. That said in GB successive governments have not let bankrupt banks fail they have funded the bailout from the overall public purse not let individual purses fund them.

The view having been this is the lesser of two evils and less onurous on individuals, who happen to be in 'the wrong bank at the wrong time'.

Off shore accounts have never been covered nor in my opinion should they be. There are obvious advantages to having money off-shore, can't really expect to have the best of both worlds. The FSCS was set up really to assist private individuals, ie look after the small man or woman in the street.


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## travelling-man

Well I've no idea who's right but I've just skyped Lloyds Offshore again and they've again told me it's UKP50K per person. 

So 3 different people have told me the same thing on 3 separate occasions.

Hopefully I'll never have cause to get upset about it.


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## Tilley

travelling-man said:


> Well I've no idea who's right but I've just skyped Lloyds Offshore again and they've again told me it's UKP50K per person.
> 
> So 3 different people have told me the same thing on 3 separate occasions.
> 
> Hopefully I'll never have cause to get upset about it.


When you are taking to Lloyds off shore are you refering to on-shore accounts or on-shore accounts ?

That might be where the confusion lies. the FSCS does not cover off-shore accounts.

Hopefully as you say you will never need to find out .


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## travelling-man

As in the Isle of Man. 

So maybe the rules are different for mainland UK?


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## Tilley

travelling-man said:


> As in the Isle of Man.
> 
> So maybe the rules are different for mainland UK?


Phew ! that explains it.  Yes the rules are different for off shore (i.e. Isle of Man, Jersey etc).

Thought you had ended up talking to the tea boy or work experiece person.

On-shore in the UK it is £85,000 per person and per finanical institution.


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## travelling-man

So if someone had less than UKP50K in the IoM & less than UKP85K in the mainland would both be protected or do they take a sum total?


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## Tilley

travelling-man said:


> So if someone had less than UKP50K in the IoM & less than UKP85K in the mainland would both be protected or do they take a sum total?


I dont know to be honest, and dont want to guess. I only know about on-shore accounts.

Until I read your post I didn't even realise that off-shore accounts were covered, so that is encouraging news for those who have them.

I don't know if it covers all off-shore accounts though, or just that you may have picked a good one that offers some kind of cover.

Hopefully someone else will know, who maybe is in the same situation as yourself with both an off-shore account and an on-shore one.

Apologies as we are well off topic from the bailout.


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## travelling-man

Maybe another option is to open something like a Swiss account but I have no idea how easy that is to do or what the requirements are.


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## David_&_Letitia

travelling-man said:


> Well I've no idea who's right but I've just skyped Lloyds Offshore again and they've again told me it's UKP50K per person.
> 
> So 3 different people have told me the same thing on 3 separate occasions.
> 
> Hopefully I'll never have cause to get upset about it.





travelling-man said:


> As in the Isle of Man.
> 
> So maybe the rules are different for mainland UK?


The Isle of Man is covered by the IDCS, which is £50k. See this link for the terms:

FSC - Depositors' Compensation Scheme - Financial Supervision Commission

Jersy is covered by the JDCS which is also £50k. See this link for terms:

Overview of the Depositors Compensation Scheme


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## travelling-man

OK. So maybe one answer might be to keep some in Jersey & some in the IoM?

Or perhaps under the bed! LOL.


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## gaston

*Cyprus Bank robbery*

Is there any way to fight with the robbery which was done by Cyprus and EU on uninsured depositors of Bank of Cyprus in Cyprus?
Do you know if there is any community of affected people by Cyprus banking robbery which are going to sue Cyprus?


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## Veronica

As it was all done at the behest of the EU I think it is unlikely that anyone can do anything.


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## bwfcwood

Why sue Cyprus? Cyprus should sue the robbing Troika. I am amazed still that this has been allowed to happen with so little outrage.


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## travelling-man

Veronica said:


> As it was all done at the behest of the EU I think it is unlikely that anyone can do anything.


Any chance of an in/out referendum?

It strikes me that the current plan is like selling the family silver for no good reason


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## gaston

Even if was done on behest of the EU I still think that is bank robbery, a wealth tax that violates the human rights and which is against the EU "principles" and should be a legal way to sue Cyprus or Troika on European Court of Justice or International Court of Justice.
I'm trying to find a community of people affected by this bank robbery which are going to sue Cyprus or Troika for getting back what was seized thru this masive bank robbery


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## Veronica

In any country if a bank goes bankrupt and depositors lose their money they are only entitled to the amount which is guaranteed.
That is exactly what has happened here. The two banks which are affected have got major problems thanks to their being exposed to the Greek banks collapse. 
To talk about suing Cyprus is total nonsense.


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## gaston

only Popular Bank of Cyprus(Laiki) went Bankrupt, the bigest one, Bank Of Cyprus, is in reorganization. Now my question is Bankruptcy is the same with Bank Reorganization?


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## Pam n Dave

There are at least two groups of people attempting to sue. Have a look at these two articles.

Investor files suit against Popular Bank - Cyprus Mail

Russians consider lawsuits over Cyprus losses - Cyprus Mail

There is also a third group I believe who are going after the Europeans amongst others as they allege that the "Bail-in" was against European rules.


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## PeteandSylv

Let's clarify a few things:

The EU required Cyprus to carry out the robbery (I will *not* call it a tax) if Cyprus was to receive a loan commonly called the bail-out.

As the EU via the Troika did not actually carry out the robbery it is hard to see how they can be held liable. Thus any suing must be against the banks or government in Cyprus.

Laiki is not bankrupt but is being wound down in an orderly fashion. Bankruptcy is a legal condition and the bank would not be able to trade if it were put into formal bankruptcy.

The concept of an in/out referendum as suggested presumably refers to the EU or does it refer to just the Euro? In either case it is impractical and pointless as any referendum would receive a vote from the "heart" of a wounded population and would surely be to leave either or both of the EU and the Euro. This would be the worst way to make a decision at this time. It would be like a drowning man cutting the rope after having just been thrown the lifebelt.

A rational consideration in time might be appropriate but surely the government's task at present is to ensure the country does not become bankrupt immediately and to develop the way forward for survival. I dread to think what might have happened under the previous Idiot President's government particularly as it was he that antagonised the Troika into it's over aggressive stance.

Any talk of how unfair or immoral the situation is a waste of words. When you're held by the throat with a gun pointing at your nuts you need to be polite, thus the only current way forward for Cyprus is to comply with the EU demands, carry out corrections to the banks, the administration, the unions and set the country on a forward path. Any consideration of EU/Euro status is for the future but will probably become irrelevant if the Government succeeds and Cyprus begins to prosper.

Pete


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## Veronica

Pam n Dave said:


> There are at least two groups of people attempting to sue. Have a look at these two articles.
> 
> Investor files suit against Popular Bank - Cyprus Mail
> 
> Russians consider lawsuits over Cyprus losses - Cyprus Mail
> 
> There is also a third group I believe who are going after the Europeans amongst others as they allege that the "Bail-in" was against European rules.


Its one thing considering suing but realistically what are the chances of anyone winning such a law suit?
They would probably end up spending a lot of money on lawyers and getting nothing back for it in the end.


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## lotuseater

Veronica said:


> The vast majority of expats are in receipt of state retirement pensions which are ample to live on comfortably and as pensioners they are entitled to free health care at the state hospitals.
> Those who are not at state retirement age and are here working should be paying into the Cyprus social insurance fund which entitles them to all the same benefits as Cypriots.
> Those who are working and not paying into the social fund, not paying taxes etc because they work for cash in hand, only have themselves to blame if they fall on hard times and cannot get any benefits or free health care.
> As for moving to the North, most of us would never consider living in an illegally occupied state which is not recognised by the international community.


Well, there are already thousands of happy UK expats living in the North who would disagree with you.

In fact, they'd say they would never consider living in a state that "Steals" money from their savings....as happens in the South.


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## bwfcwood

I think it's probably a tad risque to mention the North & Stealing in the same sentence. ..... I'm sure there are a lot of Cypriot's in the south who would be living in the North had there homes not been stolen. ....


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## davidogden

I am sorry I would never live in the North having seen the way the Turks desicrated the Christian Churchs. In the the South Mosques may be borded up but graves haves not been disturbed


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## PeteandSylv

I hope this thread is not going to descend into a north versus south hate campaign.

There is nothing to be gained by that particular discussion particularly at a time when so many would like to see the past put aside and some progress made for everyone's future.

Pete


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## Veronica

:focus:

Pete is right, lets get back to the topic please.


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## David_&_Letitia

Food Aid on its way...

BBC News - Cypriot Londoners collect food for Cyprus


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## lotuseater

I also agree with Pete! I've posted on this site a few times and have always said that we, as non-Cypriots, should definately NOT get into the politics of the island. I personally have no particular axe to grind (with either Greeks or Turks), but I'm amazed how many people do....people who have nothing to do with the history of the island! I really don't understand why non-Cypriot expats get SO steamed about it.

I have only ever advocated the north as a place to consider living AS WELL AS the south. I love the island and have been many times....to BOTH sides. But when I do go, I leave the politics behind me. I've NEVER said one side is better than the other. 

So come on people, let's leave the name-calling to the Cypriots (both Greek and Turk) and stay out of THEIR issues with each other.


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## virgil

Today legendary trader Jim Sinclair told King World News that today is a day of financial infamy as Cyprus depositors are flushed ...

My Blog not my blog, but Eric King of King World News.


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## buster12

Came across this which I thought very apt;

How True - How pertinent... ...still....

* "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome will become bankrupt. People must again learn to work instead of living on public assistance."

- Cicero, 55 BC

So, evidently we have learnt absolutely ****** all over the past 2,067/8 years. * :clap2::clap2:

rgards,

David


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## PeteandSylv

Wouldn't it have been marvellous if Cicero had really said that?

Unfortunately the quote comes from a fictional novel of Cicero's life called A Pillar of Iron by Taylor Caldwell.



Pete


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## MacManiac

I am impressed by all this erudite discussion.


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## PeteandSylv

I'm impressed that you're impressed. :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Pete


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