# citizenship



## goss (May 20, 2016)

Hepa said:


> We are at the moment, completing the documentation for Spanish citizenship. We are concerned that the U.K. may leave the E.U. , or that the E.U. may go belly up, and Spain may have to leave.
> 
> Yes I appreciate that it is unlikely, but one never knows.


My wife (who is spanish) thought I should do the same (I am british, moved to spain in 2003). However, I was informed by the Spanish authorities that double nationality in NOT permitted in the case of UK-Spain. This means you will have to "renounce" your british nationality, does it not? I'd be interested to know if you'd heard the the same? thanks.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I've moved your post to the main forum and given it its own title, so as to get some answers for you

Jo xxx


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

goss_architect said:


> My wife (who is spanish) thought I should do the same (I am british, moved to spain in 2003). However, I was informed by the Spanish authorities that double nationality in NOT permitted in the case of UK-Spain. This means you will have to "renounce" your british nationality, does it not? I'd be interested to know if you'd heard the the same? thanks.


You are correct in that Spain does NOT recognize dual nationality.

However, British nationality is a right of birth and so you can never loose that.

Consequently, whilst one might renounce British nationality, in practice this doesn't happen and the Spanish authorities accept this.


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

ok, thanks.

just wanted to add that I was also informed by the British Consulate (Bilbao), some time ago, that even though the Spanish government requires that you renounce your british nationality, the british government does not recognise this renouncement.

That sounds a little unnerving - like a state of limbo...

In my opinion, I'd rather see how the referendum pans out before taking any steps that might turn out to be completely unnecessary. In any case, I believe that there are over 500,000 british living in Spain (althought I've not been able to pinpoint the real figure). So are we all expected to suddenly put in our papers for a spanish passport on the 24th of june??!!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

goss_architect said:


> ok, thanks.
> 
> just wanted to add that I was also informed by the British Consulate (Bilbao), some time ago, that even though the Spanish government requires that you renounce your british nationality, the british government does not recognise this renouncement.
> 
> ...


Why? We'll still be able to live here so what's the issue?

Have you read the ongoing thread in La Tasca about the possible Brexit?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

snikpoh said:


> Why? We'll still be able to live here so what's the issue?
> 
> Have you read the ongoing thread in La Tasca about the possible Brexit?


I moved this post from there as it was in danger of getting swamped lol.

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

yes, snikpoh, thats where I originally contributed my comment (tasca). my concern is not over right to reside (especially considering that in my case as I have married a Spanish citizen and therefore this is not a question), but other issues: rights to vote in "municipales" & "europeos", ability to set up a company, spanish state pension, unemployment, public healthcare, convalidation of professional qualifications...the list goes on.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have just obtained Spanish Nationality, collected my new Identity card this week, I now have also a new number and a new surname on my details.

Dual nationality is permitted in Spain, but not for us who are born in the U.K. I have signed a paper renouncing my U.K., and/or Isle of Man and Channel Isles Nationality.

However I am informed by the British consulate in Tenerife, that the only way that the U.K. government will agree to a person renouncing U.K. nationality is a personal attendance at I believe the Home Office in London and a formal renunciation.

The process has taken two years eight months, but for me worthwhile, I now feel more settled, more secure. My life is here in the Canary Isles, I cannot foresee that i will live elsewhere.

A German tourist today asked me if I was Irish, "No," said I, " I'm English by birth and Spanish by choice,"

I have retained my U.K. passport.


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

Interesting.

I am amazed that it took 2 years, 8 months. This leads me to believe that your application was not brexit/referendum driven? feeling more settled and secure sounds good.

I guess its just a gut reaction on my part, but I would definitely not be comfortable signing that renouncement that you mention.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm a dual citizen too, but with Canada and Spain. I was born a Spanish citizen and when I was 14 I became a Canadian citizen. Like with UK citizens, I'm not considered having dual nationality because Spain doesn't recognise dual nationality with Canada. So when I'm in Spain, I am a Spanish citizen, and when I'm in Canada, I'm a Canadian citizen. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

goss_architect said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I am amazed that it took 2 years, 8 months. This leads me to believe that your application was not brexit/referendum driven? feeling more settled and secure sounds good.
> 
> I guess its just a gut reaction on my part, but I would definitely not be comfortable signing that renouncement that you mention.


Initially it was the somewhat unstable situation in the E.U. that prompted the application, nationality was seen as a form of insurance.

The renunciation was just a piece of paper, mentioning U.K. Isle of Man and Channel isles, it did not mention the most important part, Gods own County, or the West Riding of Yorkshire, 

Most immigrants here, except those of Germanic origin, apply for Spanish Nationality.

Now, I believe that you have to be fluent in the language and there is an examination to pass, I believe our language skills were tested unofficially in the court house, where we originally applied, but for us no examination.

Bosslady is still waiting for hers to be granted.


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

Hepa said:


> Initially it was the somewhat unstable situation in the E.U. that prompted the application, nationality was seen as a form of insurance.
> 
> The renunciation was just a piece of paper, mentioning U.K. Isle of Man and Channel isles, it did not mention the most important part, Gods own County, or the West Riding of Yorkshire,
> 
> ...


When you say "here" I assume you mean Canary Is.? Admittedly in my 12 years in Spain, I've not met that many expats (incredibly), but none of them had applied for spanish nationality.

btw, your "god's own county" is indeed a privileged spot. almost gives cornwall a run for its money...


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa, other than speaking Spanish, what were the requirements for you to become a Spanish citizen? I wonder if there are different requirements for someone who is married to a Spaniard?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Curiously, this is a conversation I've been having just this week with some American friends of mine who are also married to Spaniards. I happen to have the link on hand which details exactly what's needed for us to take on Spanish citizenship.

Nacionalidad por residencia - Trámites y gestiones personales - Ministerio de Justicia


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Hepa, other than speaking Spanish, what were the requirements for you to become a Spanish citizen? I wonder if there are different requirements for someone who is married to a Spaniard?


10 years resident, no recorded convictions in the U.K. or here, and two witnesses to say that we had integrated into the community.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> Curiously, this is a conversation I've been having just this week with some American friends of mine who are also married to Spaniards. I happen to have the link on hand which details exactly what's needed for us to take on Spanish citizenship.
> 
> Nacionalidad por residencia - Trámites y gestiones personales - Ministerio de Justicia


Thanks!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> 10 years resident, no recorded convictions in the U.K. or here, and two witnesses to say that we had integrated into the community.


What is meant to have integrated into the community?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

goss_architect said:


> When you say "here" I assume you mean Canary Is.? Admittedly in my 12 years in Spain, I've not met that many expats (incredibly), but none of them had applied for spanish nationality.
> 
> btw, your "god's own county" is indeed a privileged spot. almost gives cornwall a run for its money...


Here is El Hierro, the immigrants in the main are from South America, maybe six or seven from the U.K., umpteen from Germanic countries, one French lady, couple of Italians, and a few from various West and North African countries.

Incidently the locals consider those from Iberian Spain to be comers in, and all foreigners, including us, are Germans.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> What is meant to have integrated into the community?


Speaking Spanish, partaking and contributing in local activities with the local population, flirting with all the ladies, getting plastered with the fellows, having a good knowledge of the top football clubs in Spain, talking and having a laugh with the locals………...


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

Hepa said:


> Here is El Hierro, the immigrants in the main are from South America, maybe six or seven from the U.K., umpteen from Germanic countries, one French lady, couple of Italians, and a few from various West and North African countries.
> 
> Incidently the locals consider those from Iberian Spain to be comers in, and all foreigners, including us, are Germans.


the immigrants that I've met can be counted on the fingers of one hand! one texan architect (who returned in 2007) a russian surgeon, an italian civil engineer (both also went home), a londoner who is not actually a resident but visits often, and another guy from cornwall who lives over the river from me (in bizkaia). I lost touch with the latter having changed mobile phone. Maybe he's on this forum! As i mentioned, none even remotely considered requesting spanish nationality...


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## goss (May 20, 2016)

Hepa said:


> Speaking Spanish, partaking and contributing in local activities with the local population, flirting with all the ladies, getting plastered with the fellows, having a good knowledge of the top football clubs in Spain, talking and having a laugh with the locals………...


speaking spanish.....yep
local activities.....yep
flirting with the ladies....my wife would castrate me
getting plastered...probably got a surplus in this category
football clubs....nope. tried to make up with rugby but doesn't always work
having a laugh with locals....see "getting plastered" one thing generally leads to the other

so, probably in with a chance then...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

goss_architect said:


> the immigrants that I've met can be counted on the fingers of one hand! one texan architect (who returned in 2007) a russian surgeon, an italian civil engineer (both also went home), a londoner who is not actually a resident but visits often, and another guy from cornwall who lives over the river from me (in bizkaia). I lost touch with the latter having changed mobile phone. Maybe he's on this forum! As i mentioned, none even remotely considered requesting spanish nationality...


I think it very much depends on the person and the circumstances. For most Europeans it was a bureaucratic step that just wasn't necessary as we could live in Spain without too many difficulties. Now with Brexit some people are more worried. Others just don't feel right having another nationality. A lot of people don't see the advantages as being so important.
I keep saying I'm going to do it, but it's a pain to do it yourself when you are working and I'm loathe to pay a gestor...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Speaking Spanish, partaking and contributing in local activities with the local population, flirting with all the ladies, getting plastered with the fellows, having a good knowledge of the top football clubs in Spain, talking and having a laugh with the locals………...


Is that an official list 'cos I fail on a few of those...

Oh, and what about managing to have Spanish/ Basque in laws without any major fall outs?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> Speaking Spanish, partaking and contributing in local activities with the local population, flirting with all the ladies, getting plastered with the fellows, having a good knowledge of the top football clubs in Spain, talking and having a laugh with the locals………...


That's hilarious! LOL! But seriously I'm wondering, because integration is a requirement for anyone becoming a Spanish citizen, according to the link that Kalohi gave. :confused2:

_"Además, el interesado deberá acreditar buena conducta cívica, y suficiente grado de integración en la sociedad española."_


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Speaking Spanish, partaking and contributing in local activities with the local population, flirting with all the ladies, getting plastered with the fellows, having a good knowledge of the top football clubs in Spain, talking and having a laugh with the locals………...


Five out of six for me then, should be ok!

I will apply if there's a Brexit and Brits lose EU healthcare rights etc. I would like to vote here. I've been resident eight years now so only two to go. Can't see myself ever returning to the UK to live.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I still don't know how they test for integration. But here's something I found on trying to get answers.... We were talking about on the forum a couple of years ago about how citizenship may require tests for Spanish language and knowledge of Spain. These tests became law last October.

https://www.tandemmadrid.com/blogs/...or-obtaining-spanish-citizenship-nationality/


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> I still don't know how they test for integration. But here's something I found on trying to get answers.... We were talking about on the forum a couple of years ago about how citizenship may require tests for Spanish language and knowledge of Spain. These tests became law last October.
> 
> https://www.tandemmadrid.com/blogs/...or-obtaining-spanish-citizenship-nationality/


An applicant is not tested for integration, the two witnesses testify, amongst other things, that in their opinion the applicant has integrated well into the local community where he/she resides.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Hepa said:


> An applicant is not tested for integration, the two witnesses testify, amongst other things, that in their opinion the applicant has integrated well into the local community where he/she resides.


But these tests were brought into force well after you had applied for citizenship, were they not?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I still don't know how they test for integration. But here's something I found on trying to get answers.... We were talking about on the forum a couple of years ago about how citizenship may require tests for Spanish language and knowledge of Spain. These tests became law last October.
> 
> https://www.tandemmadrid.com/blogs/...or-obtaining-spanish-citizenship-nationality/


The actual test has lots of questions about Spanish culture & history, which if you weren't 'integrated' you wouldn't be able to answer. All in Spanish of course, so that maybe covers any language requirement?

Though Cervantes says you need a level of A2. That's not really very high.....

Here's a link to a sample 'life in Spain' test. I think you'd need more than A2 to understand it all, tbh. I just got 24 out of 25. A couple of lucky guesses by elimination. The one I got wrong I'm kicking myself. I knew it, but clicked the wrong one! 

Test Gratuito


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> But these tests were brought into force well after you had applied for citizenship, were they not?


Should read was tested, not is tested.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Xabiachica, you're right, that these tests include a test of integration. 

_"From now on, the procedure to acquire the Spanish citizenship by residence will substitute the integration interviews previously required with the administration officials for the approval of these two tests to be held in the Cervantes Institute."_

From here: Get ready for the Spanish Citizenship Test - Tolentino Abogados de Extranjería e Inmigración

From what I've read, without these new rules, there were a lot of complaints of judges unfairly interpreting what integration means, and often the questions were seen as trick questions or too difficult, which made people fail and lose the ability to gain citizenship. What is integration to one person may not be to the next.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Xabiachica, you're right, that these tests include a test of integration.
> 
> _"From now on, the procedure to acquire the Spanish citizenship by residence will substitute the integration interviews previously required with the administration officials for the approval of these two tests to be held in the Cervantes Institute."_
> 
> ...


As much as I hate the word 'integration' - I doubt any judge would have been able to say that I'm not


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Why do you hate the word integration? :confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Why do you hate the word integration? :confused2:


I feel that it is often mis-used & is over-used. And is often used almost as a weapon by those who 'are' against those who 'aren't'  

And vice versa. I haven't heard it for a while, but the term 'Plastic Spaniard' used to be thrown around a lot, to describe those who were in some people's opinion 'too integrated'.

Not everyone wants to be, & imo there's nothing wrong with that if it's what you want, although again imo, you miss out on so much if you only mix with those of your own nationality & don't try to get to know the 'locals'.

Also, as you posted a few posts ago, it's open to a certain level of personal interpretation.

Do I speak nothing but Spanish & eat nothing but Spanish food, & spend all my time with Spanish people. No.

BUT. Am I 'integrated' into the local community? Yes. No-one could deny that. 

Yet, anyone who doesn't know what I do outside my main job & my private life, wouldn't necessarily think that I am.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Why do you hate the word integration? :confused2:


Psssst It's a long word and she can't spell


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> As much as I hate the word 'integration' - I doubt any judge would have been able to say that I'm not


Talking about Judges, we never went to see the judge, neither was there any form of ceremony, never had to swear an oath of allegiance or any thing like that, the male clerk in the court house sorted everything, find fellow he is too, most helpful.

When he gave me my papers, I had to go next door to the Delegation insular, who issued me with an appointment to see the Policia National, who fly in on a Tuesday, I gave them my photo, they took my finger prints, gave me my new I.D. number and an appointment to collect the I.D. card, Charged me €10.60 in cash.

I suspect different areas will have completely different procedures, well otherwise it wouldn't be Spain.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I feel that it is often mis-used & is over-used. And is often used almost as a weapon by those who 'are' against those who 'aren't'
> 
> And vice versa. I haven't heard it for a while, but the term 'Plastic Spaniard' used to be thrown around a lot, to describe those who were in some people's opinion 'too integrated'.
> 
> ...


People confuse integration and assimilation. Assimilation is where the incomers adopt the culture and values of the host community and turn their back on their own cultural identity. Integration is where the incomers retain their own cultural identity, and both learn from and contribute to the culture of the host community. Those "plastic Spaniards" come into the first category and usually fail dismally.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I still don't know how they test for integration. But here's something I found on trying to get answers.... We were talking about on the forum a couple of years ago about how citizenship may require tests for Spanish language and knowledge of Spain. These tests became law last October.
> 
> https://www.tandemmadrid.com/blogs/...or-obtaining-spanish-citizenship-nationality/


I had no idea! Thanks for this link, and here's another good one for anyone who wants to prepare for the exam
http://www.intermigra.info/archivos/News1015/ICMANUALCCSE.pdf


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I feel that it is often mis-used & is over-used. And is often used almost as a weapon by those who 'are' against those who 'aren't'
> 
> And vice versa. I haven't heard it for a while, but the term 'Plastic Spaniard' used to be thrown around a lot, to describe those who were in some people's opinion 'too integrated'.
> 
> ...


Yes, I see what you mean as to why you don't like the word. So I see that to you eating solely Spanish food, spending time solely with Spaniards and speaking only Spanish does not necessarily mean you're integrated, as you consider you are. So what does it mean to be integrated to you? 

Personally, I don't think I'll ever be completely integrated and I don't mind that. I know what you mean about the plastic Spaniard, and it is indeed plastic. I think the only ones who are truly integrated are those who have been here for generations, or at least from birth. To me, being integrated is knowing the history, education, flora and fauna, laws, politics, music, art, social customs, language, government systems, how to get around everywhere, foods and everything else that makes each country distinct. I will learn more as I live here and aim for integration simply by learning about Spain, but I will never arrive. That's the beauty of this journey to me.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I had no idea! Thanks for this link, and here's another good one for anyone who wants to prepare for the exam
> http://www.intermigra.info/archivos/News1015/ICMANUALCCSE.pdf


That's the official site. Great!

Immigration has always been a interesting topic for me. I came across this fabulous article that is an international comparison of citizenship requirements. It's four years old, but it's still got a lot of really compelling research and discussion. Here it is, in case anyone is interested.

Shaping Citizenship Policies to Strengthen Immigrant Integration | migrationpolicy.org

I found this particularly interesting:

_"While language testing is now widespread throughout Europe (in 26 out of 33 countries), assessment of country knowledge through a civics test is less common (17 out of 33 countries). All but six countries (Belgium, Cyprus, Ireland, Italy, Poland, and Sweden) have a language requirement for citizenship."_


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, I see what you mean as to why you don't like the word. So I see that to you eating solely Spanish food, spending time solely with Spaniards and speaking only Spanish does not necessarily mean you're integrated, as you consider you are. So what does it mean to be integrated to you?
> 
> Personally, I don't think I'll ever be completely integrated and I don't mind that. I know what you mean about the plastic Spaniard, and it is indeed plastic. I think the only ones who are truly integrated are those who have been here for generations, or at least from birth. To me, being integrated is knowing the history, education, flora and fauna, laws, politics, music, art, social customs, language, government systems, how to get around everywhere, foods and everything else that makes each country distinct. I will learn more as I live here and aim for integration simply by learning about Spain, but I will never arrive. That's the beauty of this journey to me.


To me being integrated simply means being _*part of the community as a whole*, not just a small part of it_ - bringing something to it, as well as taking something from it

You say 'fully integrated' - what you describe sounds to me more like what Alcalaina called 'assimilation'


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> To me being integrated simply means being _*part of the community as a whole*, not just a small part of it_ - bringing something to it, as well as taking something from it
> 
> You say 'fully integrated' - what you describe sounds to me more like what Alcalaina called 'assimilation'


I don't think I bring anything to my community, as I'm not working and I don't have any children. But I still consider myself getting integrated because I'm learning about Spain; it's just a matter of learning that I think is integrating. I don't think it's assimilation because I'm not turning my back on my own culture - Canada. I consider myself integrated into Canada. That's something they talk about in the last article I posted that compares citizenship requirements - that loyalties aren't necessarily split because you have two cultures. That's the dual citizenship I maintain - while in Canada, I go by Canadian rules and, while in Spain, I go by Spanish rules.


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I have just obtained Spanish Nationality, collected my new Identity card this week, I now have also a new number and a new surname on my details.
> 
> Dual nationality is permitted in Spain, but not for us who are born in the U.K. I have signed a paper renouncing my U.K., and/or Isle of Man and Channel Isles Nationality.
> 
> ...


The passport issue is really important. Do you know if you were lucky or is it certain that you don't have to hand over your UK passport? The thought of giving up your UK passport before receiving a Spanish one is a bit scary.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> The passport issue is really important. Do you know if you were lucky or is it certain that you don't have to hand over your UK passport? The thought of giving up your UK passport before receiving a Spanish one is a bit scary.


No I cannot comment on that. I know that in the past they took the U.K. passport and send it to the U.K. Embassy who in turn sent it back to the person from whom it was taken,

The consulate in Tenerife, told us that if they took ours, not to be unduly concerned, as it would be returned.

At no time during the entire process was my U.K. passport mentioned.

Incidentally the Spanish I.D. card can be used to travel throughout the E.U.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Ilovepatnevin said:


> The passport issue is really important. Do you know if you were lucky or is it certain that you don't have to hand over your UK passport? The thought of giving up your UK passport before receiving a Spanish one is a bit scary.


Like Hepa, I didn't have to give up my Canadian passport either, even though Spain doesn't recognise my Canadian passport/citizenship.

Hepa, by the Spanish ID card, do you mean the DNI card?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Like Hepa, I didn't have to give up my Canadian passport either, even though Spain doesn't recognise my Canadian passport/citizenship.
> 
> Hepa, by the Spanish ID card, do you mean the DNI card?


Yes.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> Yes.


OK.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Just to be clear.... I never heard the word plastic Spaniard other than on this forum. I did a Google search and found discussion on a couple of forums (which I can't post according to this forum's rules), and I think I understand it.... It's an immigrant who rejects their home culture and adopts the identity of a Spaniard. Is that right?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Just to be clear.... I never heard the word plastic Spaniard other than on this forum. I did a Google search and found discussion on a couple of forums (which I can't post according to this forum's rules), and I think I understand it.... It's an immigrant who rejects their home culture and adopts the identity of a Spaniard. Is that right?


Me neither, never heard of the term.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Also there is now a fee to pay when you apply of 500€ ,if I remember correctly.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Just to be clear.... I never heard the word plastic Spaniard other than on this forum. I did a Google search and found discussion on a couple of forums (which I can't post according to this forum's rules), and I think I understand it.... It's an immigrant who rejects their home culture and adopts the identity of a Spaniard. Is that right?


As I understand it it's a bit more than that. It's about making a big public display of adopting Spanish customs, using Spanish words when English ones will do, and rejecting everything British, in an attempt to gain "street cred" among the British community. For example, making sure everyone knows you only watch Spanish TV and wouldn't sully your screen with English soaps. I've been guilty of it myself, though I've grown out of it now! I'm not sure any other nationality does this.

I think it is based on the term "Plastic Paddy". When Irish theme pubs were all the rage a lot of musicians pretended to be Irish, or hammed up their "Oirishness", to get gigs there.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand it it's a bit more than that. It's about making a big public display of adopting Spanish customs, using Spanish words when English ones will do, and rejecting everything British, in an attempt to gain "street cred" among the British community. For example, making sure everyone knows you only watch Spanish TV and wouldn't sully your screen with English soaps. I've been guilty of it myself, though I've grown out of it now! I'm not sure any other nationality does this.
> 
> I think it is based on the term "Plastic Paddy". When Irish theme pubs were all the rage a lot of musicians pretended to be Irish, or hammed up their "Oirishness", to get gigs there.


That's about it. The attempt to gain street cred only makes the perpetrator seem like a bit of a prat.

Plastic Paddy goes a bit further than you describe. Many Brits and Americans claim Irish roots for reasons only known to themselves. There are probably more 'Irish' in the USA and UK than have ever existed in the history of Irish.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand it it's a bit more than that. It's about making a big public display of adopting Spanish customs, using Spanish words when English ones will do, and rejecting everything British, in an attempt to gain "street cred" among the British community. For example, making sure everyone knows you only watch Spanish TV and wouldn't sully your screen with English soaps. I've been guilty of it myself, though I've grown out of it now! I'm not sure any other nationality does this.


That will be why we have never heard of such an expression, no British enclaves here and the local Canary Islanders, I am told, distance themselves from those from the peninsular, whom they call,"Godos."


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand it it's a bit more than that. It's about making a big public display of adopting Spanish customs, using Spanish words when English ones will do, and rejecting everything British, in an attempt to gain "street cred" among the British community. For example, making sure everyone knows you only watch Spanish TV and wouldn't sully your screen with English soaps. I've been guilty of it myself, though I've grown out of it now! I'm not sure any other nationality does this.
> 
> I think it is based on the term "Plastic Paddy". When Irish theme pubs were all the rage a lot of musicians pretended to be Irish, or hammed up their "Oirishness", to get gigs there.


Thanks for explaining that.  The way I understood it from other forums, it's just about being a fake (plastic) Spaniard, and it's not just a British thing. Your examples are perfect to drive the point home. Like I was saying before in the thread, I don't think it's possible for an adult to ever totally integrate, so to pretend you have integrated is fake IMO. I can see where the street credit would go not just for the British community, but for the Spanish community too, right?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand it it's a bit more than that. It's about making a big public display of adopting Spanish customs, using Spanish words when English ones will do, and rejecting everything British, in an attempt to gain "street cred" among the British community. For example, making sure everyone knows you only watch Spanish TV and wouldn't sully your screen with English soaps. I've been guilty of it myself, though I've grown out of it now! I'm not sure any other nationality does this.
> 
> I think it is based on the term "Plastic Paddy". When Irish theme pubs were all the rage a lot of musicians pretended to be Irish, or hammed up their "Oirishness", to get gigs there.


We've only ever watched Spanish tele since we moved here. At first, we weren't in a place where we could have a dish. Then when we had moved somewhere we could, we couldn't afford one.......

Eventually when TDT came about, all our favourites, mostly American series, could be watched on Spanish tele but in English (never was a corriebrookenders fan, even in the UK). 

So now my daughters' English is peppered with Americanisms


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> We've only ever watched Spanish tele since we moved here. At first, we weren't in a place where we could have a dish. Then when we had moved somewhere we could, we couldn't afford one.......
> 
> Eventually when TDT came about, all our favourites, mostly American series, could be watched on Spanish tele but in English (never was a corriebrookenders fan, even in the UK).
> 
> So now my daughters' English is peppered with Americanisms


We've always had Spanish TV too, because we thought it would help us become more fluent in Spanish (it did). We watch it less since we got a smart TV with Netflix on it, but it's still first choice for news and current affairs programmes, and football of course. Not sure if that makes me a plastic Spaniard, though posting about it probably does.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Thanks for explaining that.  The way I understood it from other forums, it's just about being a fake (plastic) Spaniard, and it's not just a British thing. Your examples are perfect to drive the point home. Like I was saying before in the thread, I don't think it's possible for an adult to ever totally integrate, so to pretend you have integrated is fake IMO. I can see where the street credit would go not just for the British community, but for the Spanish community too, right?


Why do you think it's impossible for an adult to integrate?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Why do you think it's impossible for an adult to integrate?


I explained that above. 



AllHeart said:


> Personally, I don't think I'll ever be completely integrated and I don't mind that. I know what you mean about the plastic Spaniard, and it is indeed plastic. I think the only ones who are truly integrated are those who have been here for generations, or at least from birth. To me, being integrated is knowing the history, education, flora and fauna, laws, politics, music, art, social customs, language, government systems, how to get around everywhere, foods and everything else that makes each country distinct. I will learn more as I live here and aim for integration simply by learning about Spain, but I will never arrive. That's the beauty of this journey to me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> That will be why we have never heard of such an expression, no British enclaves here and the local Canary Islanders, I am told, distance themselves from those from the peninsular, whom they call,"Godos."


Sorry Hepa but you are in a British enclave right now, i.e. this forum!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Personally, I don't think I'll ever be completely integrated and I don't mind that. I know what you mean about the plastic Spaniard, and it is indeed plastic. I think the only ones who are truly integrated are those who have been here for generations, or at least from birth. To me, being integrated is knowing the history, education, flora and fauna, laws, politics, music, art, social customs, language, government systems, how to get around everywhere, foods and everything else that makes each country distinct. I will learn more as I live here and aim for integration simply by learning about Spain, but I will never arrive. That's the beauty of this journey to me..


I don't think this takes generations though. After eight years I know nearly as much about Spanish history, politics, food, music etc as I do about England. I've made a point of finding out, because I intend to stay here for the rest of my life! And of course, you can be born and raised in a country and never bother to find out about its history, politics etc. For example, I know more about our local and migratory birds than some of my neighbours.

There are of course aspects of Spanish culture which I don't understand or don't like, toros for example, but the same applies to some aspects of British culture. I can choose not to involve myself with them.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> We've always had Spanish TV too, because we thought it would help us become more fluent in Spanish (it did). We watch it less since we got a smart TV with Netflix on it, but it's still first choice for news and current affairs programmes, and football of course. Not sure if that makes me a plastic Spaniard, though posting about it probably does.


Ah - but like me, you haven't rejected everything English


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> I don't think this takes generations though. After eight years I know nearly as much about Spanish history, politics, food, music etc as I do about England. I've made a point of finding out, because I intend to stay here for the rest of my life! And of course, you can be born and raised in a country and never bother to find out about its history, politics etc. For example, I know more about our local and migratory birds than some of my neighbours.
> 
> There are of course aspects of Spanish culture which I don't understand or don't like, toros for example, but the same applies to some aspects of British culture. I can choose not to involve myself with them.


I had an interesting conversation with a cousin yesterday, and I've changed my mind. She made the same points as you did, and more, and she said it depends on the personality of a person. She said the typical personality of a person who can integrate is someone who is resourceful, curious, good at learning the language and outgoing. It's too hard to summarise our one-hour conversation here, but she made compelling arguments to every point I made, and now I see that integration of an adult is possible. 

Thanks for opening my eyes to a different way of thinking.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I had an interesting conversation with a cousin yesterday, and I've changed my mind. She made the same points as you did, and more, and she said it depends on the personality of a person. She said the typical personality of a person who can integrate is someone who is resourceful, curious, good at learning the language and outgoing. It's too hard to summarise our one-hour conversation here, but she made compelling arguments to every point I made, and now I see that integration of an adult is possible.
> 
> Thanks for opening my eyes to a different way of thinking.


If it's any indication of how an adult can integrate, I get a much better score on the Spanish test for nationality, than on the British one.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think you are integrated/assimilated whatever when you stop thinkng whether you are or not.

I still haven't found that 'How to Live in Spain' rulebook...but then I'm enjoying life here too much to spend time looking for it..


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa, you put in your application before it was law to know the language and know about Spain. But you're saying you still had to provide proof of integration. So proving integration was the law before the current law?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Hepa, you put in your application before it was law to know the language and know about Spain. But you're saying you still had to provide proof of integration. So proving integration was the law before the current law?


No, I had to provide two witnesses, who in turn had to make and sign a written declaration, that amongst other things, we had integrated well into the local community.

That is what happens here, no doubt things will be interpreted differently outside El Hierro, which is not at all uncommon.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> No, I had to provide two witnesses, who in turn had to make and sign a written declaration, that amongst other things, we had integrated well into the local community.
> 
> That is what happens here, no doubt things will be interpreted differently outside El Hierro, which is not at all uncommon.


So I'm thinking it must have been a law then to have the two witnesses sign the declaration that you've integrated. Interesting. I wonder when this became law? Do you know?

There was a time when people got married to a Spaniard and automatically gained Spanish citizenship, but that has changed now too. My mother was one of them (a Swede who married my Spanish father). I know a French lady here who got married to a Spaniard in 1970 and automatically gained Spanish citizenship.

I found out today that it used to be in Spain as it was in Sweden, that children automatically took on the citizenship of their father. I know a Spaniard here who I was talking to today. She married a Frenchman 20 (or 30?) years ago, and their kids were French. He didn't want to convert to Spanish citizenship because at that time he would have had to serve two years in the military.

The rules have changed a lot over the years with respect to citizenship. I was wondering if you tried the current test, and if you passed it?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I found out today that it used to be in Spain as it was in Sweden, that children automatically took on the citizenship of their father. I know a Spaniard here who I was talking to today. She married a Frenchman 20 (or 30?) years ago, and their kids were French. He didn't want to convert to Spanish citizenship because at that time he would have had to serve two years in the military.


Aznar did away with the mili in 1996


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Aznar did away with the mili in 1996


Wow, I didn't realise the law changed so recently! Interesting. Thanks for letting me know.


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