# Moving to Germany with my Dutch husband... will it be easy?



## Alexandra86

Dear forum members,

I am thankful to find this forum. I think it is helpful enough to communicate with each other who has the same experience like us or who has had already the experience before to move to Germany.

First, I will tell the story briefly why we are planning to move to Germany.
I'm from Indonesia and my husband is Dutch nationality. 
We are now residing in Indonesia for almost 2 years. First we were residing in Jakarta (the capital city), and now we reside in my hometown Malang.
We used to live in The Netherlands before we moved here, but unfortunately there was a crisis over there and I switched from job to job, different companies, and in the end it resulted in long time unemployment for me because my contract wasn't extended. 
That's why we tried in Indonesia, where I come from. 
We tried first Jakarta, because in a big city you have enough career chances. I had a good job, but the environment there is really polluted, it's often flooded during rainy season, and heavy traffic jams. My husband and I didn't feel comfortable so several months ago we moved to little city/ my hometown Malang.
The environment here is quite nice, clean air, but career perspective seems not good to me. Companies think that I'm overqualified with my bachelor degree from The Netherlands. So they are afraid to hire me. Because here you must be satisfied with very little salary (because living standard here is much lower than in Jakarta).

Recently, we are thinking that living in Indonesia will not be a long term for us. It's nice to be here for visiting families, holidays.. but not for a career perspective. But hey, at least we have tried!
We want to make a move quite fast because we don't like wasting much time.
We are thinking a lot everyday about moving to Germany.

We have been reading lots of information in the internet, forums, etc. But for a certainty, I really want to ask/post this.
I hope some of you guys who knows better, can answer my questions below.

1. Is it right that because my husband is Dutch, so we can move there easily which means in this case, apply Schengen visa in consulate/embassy here --> arrive in Germany --> ask residence permit based on EU spouse?

2. Is it correct that afterwards I don't need any working visa to work in Germany?

3. I started to apply since two weeks ago to companies in Germany (especially in Berlin because this city attracts us the most), is this a right plan of action?
I mean, there are enough chances to apply at many global companies out there which just require English skills. But sometimes I'm asking myself, will it work out?
Because if one of us can manage to get a job there from here, that would be nice so that we have more certainty. 

Hopefully some of you guys can answer me with tips or some advices.. I just hope that someday soon it will work out.
Thank you so much in advance


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## beppi

Greetings to malang - great place and definitely much better than the Big Durian!
1. & 2. As a spouse of a EU citizen, you have the right to live and work with him anywhere in the EU. It's best to apply for a proper visa (I think it's Family Reunion visa, but the German embassy can advise here) before you move, and not arrive with a tourist visa.
3. It is very difficult to find a job without German language skills. If at all possible, take some German classes and pass A1 before you apply and/or move!


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> 1. Is it right that because my husband is Dutch, so we can move there easily which means in this case, apply Schengen visa in consulate/embassy here --> arrive in Germany --> ask residence permit based on EU spouse?


In general, yes. Please note that Germany seems to be getting stricter regarding residence cards and as issuance depends on the EU national exercising treaty rights, this should be your no.1 priority. You talk a lot about jobs for you but a job for your husband would be paramount in order for you to be able to stay. Has he started applying? Does he have skills that are in demand in Berlin?



Alexandra86 said:


> 2. Is it correct that afterwards I don't need any working visa to work in Germany?


The residence card provides unrestricted access to the job market.



Alexandra86 said:


> 3. I started to apply since two weeks ago to companies in Germany (especially in Berlin because this city attracts us the most), is this a right plan of action?
> I mean, there are enough chances to apply at many global companies out there which just require English skills. But sometimes I'm asking myself, will it work out?
> Because if one of us can manage to get a job there from here, that would be nice so that we have more certainty.


More companies will be interested in you if you are already in Berlin, ready to start and with a residence card so they can be sure that you won't be a lengthy and costly case to sponsor.

German language skills would also help.

What is your husband doing application-wise?


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## Alexandra86

Thank you Beppi and ALKB for the responses.

Still, I have some questions regarding your guys'responses.

1. Beppy, did you mean that the family reunion visa type is the right one which can be converted to residence permit based on my EU spouse instead of the tourist visa?

2. If the German embassy makes it difficult for us to apply for family reunion visa (hopefully not of course, but IF), can we apply the same type of visa at the Dutch embassy here and then arrive in Germany, and next apply for/ convert it to residence permit?

3. Just to be sure, the German language skills is in this case not required for visa application and the residence permit application as well, am I correct?
Apart from that, of course I understand that speaking German would make it easier to find a job 

My husband is right now working freelance from home for a Dutch company. He is a programmer/software engineer with approximately 4 yrs experience. We are actually thinking that he should talk in the future with his current employer to continue this freelance job, when we move to Germany. So, hopefully, it wouldn't be a big deal. And he's planning then to look for another job to switch once we are settled there. So, I have my last question..

4. How is the job market for software engineering in Berlin? (for him) and How is the job market for marketing/international business (for me) in Berlin?
Based on the internet job sites (stepstone.de, monster.de), there are lots of chances. Am I correct?


Thank you!! 

Regards from rainy Indonesia.


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> Thank you Beppi and ALKB for the responses.
> 
> Still, I have some questions regarding your guys'responses.
> 
> 1. Beppy, did you mean that the family reunion visa type is the right one which can be converted to residence permit based on my EU spouse instead of the tourist visa?


You can apply for the family reunion visa but this is primarily for German nationals/people with permanent residence in Germany wanting to bring a non-EEA spouse to Germany. It also takes several months to process and usually requires your husband to already have a job, housing, etc, in Germany. Under EU regulations you can indeed arrive with him on a tourist visa and then apply for a residence card providing your husband is exercising treaty rights.



Alexandra86 said:


> 2. If the German embassy makes it difficult for us to apply for family reunion visa (hopefully not of course, but IF), can we apply the same type of visa at the Dutch embassy here and then arrive in Germany, and next apply for/ convert it to residence permit?


Apply for a short term Schengen visa to accompany your husband.



Alexandra86 said:


> 3. Just to be sure, the German language skills is in this case not required for visa application and the residence permit application as well, am I correct?
> Apart from that, of course I understand that speaking German would make it easier to find a job


For spouses of EEA nationals, no language skills are required for the visa/residence card. Employers prefer candidates with at the very least basic German.



Alexandra86 said:


> My husband is right now working freelance from home for a Dutch company. He is a programmer/software engineer with approximately 4 yrs experience. We are actually thinking that he should talk in the future with his current employer to continue this freelance job, when we move to Germany. So, hopefully, it wouldn't be a big deal. And he's planning then to look for another job to switch once we are settled there. So, I have my last question..


He will need to register as self-employed with the German authorities and pay all the relevant taxes, etc. If he only has the one client he works for, I don't know how the authorities will view that in regards to exercising treaty rights. (Why does he need to be in Germany to work for that Dutch client, how is he exercising his rights of movement as a worker if his work does not require his presence in Germany?)

Self-Employment is always harder to evidence and getting your paperwork together for your residence card will take longer. Never mind health insurance for the both of you.

Most employers will want to see your residence card before taking the risk of employing you.

Any chance that your husband could take on a job?


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## Alexandra86

Thanks again for the answers!

1. So, as far as I can understand what you wrote down, the schengen visa/ tourist visa can be converted to a residence permit in Germany? Am I right?

2. Is it useful to print out the information from EU laws in this case as evidence, when we apply at the Immigration in Germany? In that information, it states that I have right to convert the schengen visa into residence permit. What do you think about this?

3. About my husband, sorry that I forgot to mention that he works now actually under a contract for a Dutch company, but the way he's working is almost the same as a freelancer. Which means he doesn't need to go to the office. He works from home. 
So, we are thinking if he can still continue this job when we move to Germany. But he still needs to discuss this later on with his employer of course if they agree that we move to Germany. And that his contract should be re-arranged based on German living of standard. 
Oh yes, and just to be sure, in this case he just paid tax to the Dutch tax office right because he works for a Dutch company? I mean there's no relation at all with German tax??

The situation is, if he applies for another job in Germany from here, that wouldn't be easier as well due to our location right now. So, that's why we are thinking if he just continues his work and later on once we are settled there, he can apply for another job.

But anyways, any tips or advices are welcome! Thank you.


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## beppi

Alexandra86 said:


> Oh yes, and just to be sure, in this case he just paid tax to the Dutch tax office right because he works for a Dutch company? I mean there's no relation at all with German tax??


If he lives and works in Germany, he has to pay German tax, social security contributions and all other deductions anybody living and working in Germany has to bear. This is regardless of where the money is coming from.


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> Thanks again for the answers!
> 
> 1. So, as far as I can understand what you wrote down, the schengen visa/ tourist visa can be converted to a residence permit in Germany? Am I right?


You will not be applying for a residence permit but for a residence card for family members of EEA nationals exercising treaty rights. Different thing. The Schengen visa can be converted into a residence card providing that your husband exercises treaty rights = works in Germany.



Alexandra86 said:


> 2. Is it useful to print out the information from EU laws in this case as evidence, when we apply at the Immigration in Germany? In that information, it states that I have right to convert the schengen visa into residence permit. What do you think about this?


You can print it out but I don't think you will need it, especially in Berlin. 



Alexandra86 said:


> 3. About my husband, sorry that I forgot to mention that he works now actually under a contract for a Dutch company, but the way he's working is almost the same as a freelancer. Which means he doesn't need to go to the office. He works from home.
> So, we are thinking if he can still continue this job when we move to Germany. But he still needs to discuss this later on with his employer of course if they agree that we move to Germany. And that his contract should be re-arranged based on German living of standard.
> Oh yes, and just to be sure, in this case he just paid tax to the Dutch tax office right because he works for a Dutch company? I mean there's no relation at all with German tax??


That will not work at all.

Apart from several legal and health insurance issues, like this you will not be able to get a residence card under EU regulations.

In order for you to get a residence card, it all hinges on your husband exercising his EU treaty rights in Germany. If he works in the Netherlands, he is not exercising his treaty rights and you have no basis for getting a residence card.

You need to understand that the EU regulations of free movement is to facilitate movement of workers - it's not "we'll get settled and then look for a job there" its: "because of a job, we can easily settle"



Alexandra86 said:


> The situation is, if he applies for another job in Germany from here, that wouldn't be easier as well due to our location right now. So, that's why we are thinking if he just continues his work and later on once we are settled there, he can apply for another job.


If you want to move under EU regulations (you can also find an employer who is willing to sponsor you but chances are slim) you will need to take the plunge.

Either he finds a job in Germany beforehand or you two just move and then look for a job all day every day.

If you don't have enough money to pay for the first two to three months, you might want to wait and save up.

I suppose he could continue with his current job while jobseeking at first but as soon as he registers his residence in Germany that might open a whole lot of cans of worms regarding tax, health insurance and whatnot.


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## Andrew Chunis

Alexandra86 said:


> Thank you Beppi and ALKB for the responses.
> 
> Still, I have some questions regarding your guys'responses.
> 
> 1. Beppy, did you mean that the family reunion visa type is the right one which can be converted to residence permit based on my EU spouse instead of the tourist visa?
> 
> 2. If the German embassy makes it difficult for us to apply for family reunion visa (hopefully not of course, but IF), can we apply the same type of visa at the Dutch embassy here and then arrive in Germany, and next apply for/ convert it to residence permit?
> 
> 3. Just to be sure, the German language skills is in this case not required for visa application and the residence permit application as well, am I correct?
> Apart from that, of course I understand that speaking German would make it easier to find a job
> 
> My husband is right now working freelance from home for a Dutch company. He is a programmer/software engineer with approximately 4 yrs experience. We are actually thinking that he should talk in the future with his current employer to continue this freelance job, when we move to Germany. So, hopefully, it wouldn't be a big deal. And he's planning then to look for another job to switch once we are settled there. So, I have my last question..
> 
> 4. How is the job market for software engineering in Berlin? (for him) and How is the job market for marketing/international business (for me) in Berlin?
> Based on the internet job sites (stepstone.de, monster.de), there are lots of chances. Am I correct?
> 
> 
> Thank you!!
> 
> Regards from rainy Indonesia.



Awesome Information


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## Alexandra86

Hi ALKB, thanks for your quick and clear response.

So that means, in conclusion..my husband as an EU spouse must manage to get a job first from a company in Germany --> that means German job contract, in order to be able to apply for my residence card for family members of EEA nationals?
Could you show me/us if there's any valid information about that? I would really appreciate it. 
Because we can't find any information that the EU spouse who sponsors the residence card, must have an income from a company in Germany/German job contract.

Also, we have been reading on many sites that if the residence card is applied at the Immigration *within the 90 days of the Schengen visa*.. the Immigration won't ask you to hand over the proof of income or proof that the EU spouse works for a company in Germany.

So, we're a bit confused now...Could you give us some explanation/more info?


Thanks a lot in advance!!


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> Hi ALKB, thanks for your quick and clear response.
> 
> So that means, in conclusion..my husband as an EU spouse must manage to get a job first from a company in Germany --> that means German job contract, in order to be able to apply for my residence card for family members of EEA nationals?
> Could you show me/us if there's any valid information about that? I would really appreciate it.
> Because we can't find any information that the EU spouse who sponsors the residence card, must have an income from a company in Germany/German job contract.
> 
> Also, we have been reading on many sites that if the residence card is applied at the Immigration *within the 90 days of the Schengen visa*.. the Immigration won't ask you to hand over the proof of income or proof that the EU spouse works for a company in Germany.
> 
> So, we're a bit confused now...Could you give us some explanation/more info?
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!!


He can come to Germany as a jobseeker.

If you apply within 90 days of his arrival in Germany, he doesn't need to show a job, finances, health insurance, etc.

BUT the authorities can take up to six months to process the application and I have now heard of cases in which the EU spouse has been asked to provide proof of exercising treaty rights before they issue the card.

Since last year, Germany (among other EU countries) is getting a wee bit grumpy about free movement and things seem to be getting harder while before decisions were mostly made on the day of application, they now seem to wait until they can ask to see proof of employment.

Your husband doesn't have to have a qualified job. Any job of at least 16 hours/week would be fine. He also doesn't have to stay in that job after you get the residence card.

https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/324282/en/

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf


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## Alexandra86

ALKB, thanks for your answers.

By the way, my husband has already looked several days ago at the same links that you gave us 
But still, we have observed that there's no information which says that as an EU spouse, you need to have a *German *job contract or work for a company which locates in Germany to get the residence card approved for me.
It only states that you need to have a sufficient income or proof of a job contract. 

I mean, if the Dutch boss agreed with my husband later on that he can continue his job in Germany while receiving Euro salary, we still think it shouldn't be a problem.. right??
The amount is perhaps higher than the at least 16 hours/week temporary job that he still needs to manage to get it...

Hmmmm what do you think??
Sorry for the many questions, but we really appreciate your help in explaining and answering us. 
Thank you!!


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> ALKB, thanks for your answers.
> 
> By the way, my husband has already looked several days ago at the same links that you gave us
> But still, we have observed that there's no information which says that as an EU spouse, you need to have a *German *job contract or work for a company which locates in Germany to get the residence card approved for me.
> It only states that you need to have a sufficient income or proof of a job contract.
> 
> I mean, if the Dutch boss agreed with my husband later on that he can continue his job in Germany while receiving Euro salary, we still think it shouldn't be a problem.. right??
> The amount is perhaps higher than the at least 16 hours/week temporary job that he still needs to manage to get it...
> 
> Hmmmm what do you think??
> Sorry for the many questions, but we really appreciate your help in explaining and answering us.
> Thank you!!


How would you define exercising treaty rights in the host country, then? It doesn't say exercising treaty rights in a neighbouring country.

You can try.

I think you have the following options:

1. Show the Dutch work contract and hope the authorities will accept this (please note that your husband might be liable for the entire amount of social security fees and health insurance which a German employer would pay half of, you need to find out how to organise this)

2. He does the job as self-employed, registering at all relevant authorities in Germany (careful about health insurance here!)

3. He finds a German job (easiest to evidence, gives him - and you until you have your own job - access to the public health insurance system)


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## Bevdeforges

Basically, the problem you're running into is that your husband needs to show that he is "exercising his freedom of movement rights" by residing in Germany. And if he is doing that, then he has the right to have you join him as his spouse.

It's not absolutely necessary to have a German job, but he does have to have a reason for being in Germany rather than in the Netherlands where his job is based. He could be attending school in Germany, for example. But the issue is that your right to a residence card/permit is contingent on his being legally resident in Germany - with some means of support plus being properly registered in the appropriate social insurances. (As ALKB has said, either by registering as self-employed or establishing himself as a small business and enrolling with the tax and social insurance agencies.) 

And, speaking as a former human resources manager in Germany (ok, a LONG time ago), chances are no legitimate employer will talk to you until you have the residence card that indicates your right to work in Germany. (It's how they cover their own posterior - so as not to be "accidentally" hiring a foreigner without the right to work.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Alexandra86

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the clear answers.

ALKB, we have been thinking about it and based on your latest response, we will go for option number 3 since it's the safest and easiest way to get a residence card for me.

My husband comes from IT background (software development), and he will apply online from here where we are now (Indonesia) to companies in Germany. So, we will keep you guys updated... Hopefully there will be a positive response not for long anymore.

Right now, our question is what are the correct/useful steps once he gets a job from a company in Germany.. Below you can read the specific questions.

1. Is it correct that I should come with a tourist visa/Schengen visa from a consulate here and then convert it to a residence card at immigration there?
2. Is it correct that the tourist visa is in this case free for me, because I have my EU spouse?
We read it somewhere from a source that actually it cost around 65 euro, but in this case is free for me?
3. Is a proof of a retour ticket required for me only, to travel outside the EU? Because normally the consulate/ embassy would ask that during the application of tourist visa. I don't know whether German embassy requires this.
4. After arrival in Germany, we will look for an long term apartment to settle (most probably in Berlin, because we plan to move there). After we have an address to live in, we should report to the city hall first, and then later to immigration, right? And all of these should happen within that 90 days I assume.
5. Do you guys have any valuable information of salary range in the IT field in Berlin, how much to expect from a company based on my husband's skills and years of experience?

Sorry for the many questions.
We believe where there is a willingness, there's a way.

Thanks in advance! Have a good day.


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Thanks so much for the clear answers.
> 
> ALKB, we have been thinking about it and based on your latest response, we will go for option number 3 since it's the safest and easiest way to get a residence card for me.
> 
> My husband comes from IT background (software development), and he will apply online from here where we are now (Indonesia) to companies in Germany. So, we will keep you guys updated... Hopefully there will be a positive response not for long anymore.
> 
> Right now, our question is what are the correct/useful steps once he gets a job from a company in Germany.. Below you can read the specific questions.
> 
> 1. Is it correct that I should come with a tourist visa/Schengen visa from a consulate here and then convert it to a residence card at immigration there?
> 2. Is it correct that the tourist visa is in this case free for me, because I have my EU spouse?
> We read it somewhere from a source that actually it cost around 65 euro, but in this case is free for me?
> 3. Is a proof of a retour ticket required for me only, to travel outside the EU? Because normally the consulate/ embassy would ask that during the application of tourist visa. I don't know whether German embassy requires this.
> 4. After arrival in Germany, we will look for an long term apartment to settle (most probably in Berlin, because we plan to move there). After we have an address to live in, we should report to the city hall first, and then later to immigration, right? And all of these should happen within that 90 days I assume.
> 5. Do you guys have any valuable information of salary range in the IT field in Berlin, how much to expect from a company based on my husband's skills and years of experience?
> 
> Sorry for the many questions.
> We believe where there is a willingness, there's a way.
> 
> Thanks in advance! Have a good day.


1. Yes.
2. Yes. No visa fee and processed within 15 days. If the Embassy works through a third party agency to collect biometrics and documents, like Worldbridge or VFS, then there might be a fee for that and or postage to be paid for sending documents and passport back.
3. No. Also no need to book anything before the visa is issued or to include such information in the application.
4. In Berlin it's not the city hall but the Bürgeramt. Some of those are located in city halls (usually extremely busy, I avoid these). You can register your address at any Bürgeramt in Berlin, no need to use the nearest to your address. Make an appointment online. Being seen without an appointment is sheer luck and can take hours. Get a Meldebescheinigung for both of you, or even better, one for you, one for your husband and one for the Ausländerbehörde. Invest a few Euro into the more durable A4 version, the carbon copy thingy that comes free with your Anmeldung (also free) is flimsy at best and unreadable at worst. This Meldebescheinigung is your proof of address for absolutely everything (in lieu of a German national ID card) and you should carry it with your passport. 
5. I have absolutely no idea.

Good luck with the job search!


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## Alexandra86

Hi ALKB, thanks so much for your previous response.

Just to make sure, I want to ask a few questions again.

1. I heard from people that Schengenvisa application requires that the EU spouse/partner already locates in Europe itself. Well, I think that this is actually relevant for the case of family reunion visa, isn't it?
So, in our situation.. My husband is Dutch and I'm non EU (Indonesian), I mean we can just depart together and apply first for a Schengenvisa 90 days at German consulate for me right?
So, no need at all that my husband must locates in Germany first, right? Sorry, this question is just to make sure 

2. For the visa and residence card application, there's no German language skills required.. Am I right?
Of course for applying jobs later, it makes the chance bigger if I can speak at least basic German.. Again, this question is just also to make sure.

3. So far as I know, we need to provide our marriage certificate documentation as one of the requirements to get the residence card at Auslanderbehorde.
Do you perhaps know if we must provide the document which should be not older than 6 months? 
If yes, then we will keep that in mind.. Luckily we can request that online at the website of the Dutch city hall where we married 2 years ago.

Thanks a lot in advance!! 

Regards!


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## ALKB

Alexandra86 said:


> Hi ALKB, thanks so much for your previous response.
> 
> Just to make sure, I want to ask a few questions again.
> 
> 1. I heard from people that Schengenvisa application requires that the EU spouse/partner already locates in Europe itself. Well, I think that this is actually relevant for the case of family reunion visa, isn't it?
> So, in our situation.. My husband is Dutch and I'm non EU (Indonesian), I mean we can just depart together and apply first for a Schengenvisa 90 days at German consulate for me right?
> So, no need at all that my husband must locates in Germany first, right? Sorry, this question is just to make sure
> 
> 2. For the visa and residence card application, there's no German language skills required.. Am I right?
> Of course for applying jobs later, it makes the chance bigger if I can speak at least basic German.. Again, this question is just also to make sure.
> 
> 3. So far as I know, we need to provide our marriage certificate documentation as one of the requirements to get the residence card at Auslanderbehorde.
> Do you perhaps know if we must provide the document which should be not older than 6 months?
> If yes, then we will keep that in mind.. Luckily we can request that online at the website of the Dutch city hall where we married 2 years ago.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!!
> 
> Regards!


Hello 

1. You can "accompany" (travel with your spouse to Germany) or "join" (travel after your spouse has already moved). Keep in mind that reception staff is probably local and they probably don't see a lot of applications under EU regulations.

2. No language requirements for you 

3. Your marriage certificate can be from the time you married. It has to be original and professionally translated into German.


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