# Mexico versus Panama



## AlanR

Hi,

Besides Mexico, Panama is another area I am seriously considering as a retirement destination. I have heard and read good things about several Panamanian destinations, one, Boquete, that appears very similar in climate and atmosphere to Mexico’s Lake Chapala area. Can someone who has either researched or lived in Panama provide some information on the differences regarding lifestyle, cost of living, and culture?

Thanks,
AlanR


----------



## RVGRINGO

Wow! "Similar"? Not at all. It has been some time since I have been in Panama, but the climate sure is not similar. I guess you'll have to visit both to know the difference, but you'll still find me at Chapala.


----------



## AlanR

RVGRINGO said:


> Wow! "Similar"? Not at all. It has been some time since I have been in Panama, but the climate sure is not similar. I guess you'll have to visit both to know the difference, but you'll still find me at Chapala.


RV... I was not talking about Panama in general, but the mountain area known as Boquette, which I understand has consistent spring like temperatures year round.


----------



## RVGRINGO

That's true, but it is quite a hike to get to anything outside of that small town. However, that may be just what you are looking for.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

I've looked into Boquete because of its climate, but compared to Mexico or the Andes it seems to have very little to offer culturally. No doubt it is lovely, but it seems to offer little beyond just being in a pretty place with coffee plantations and some birdwatching.


----------



## Guest

I live in Mexico but every day talk to a good friend who lives there. Boquete is a small town and does have reasonable temperatures, and they don't need A/C or heat. BUT, it rains there. A lot. Last Sunday was an exception, but they received 13" in a few hours time. They sometimes have earthquakes nearby.

Lots of North Americans / English spoken in the area. Also, many promoters pitching that end of Panama to people looking for a place to retire to - take whatever you read on the internet with two grains of salt. There also seems to be one or two scalawags hiding out there at any given moment. ( stories, local gossip , etc make things interesting). Many folks in Boquete also have blogs, which may serve to give them something to do every day. Mañana attitude with many things.

Property is easy to buy and hard to sell - doesn't sound like much selling these days. Residency takes a couple of years to get, but you then get a 20 year moratorium on property taxes. 

For many things, (medical care, better shopping, etc) you have to go down the hill to David which is 1/2 hour away. You can fly out of David, or from Panama City (a 5 hour drive). There is also bus service into Costa Rica.

I think I'll stick to my little corner of Mexico. Quiet, cheap, no stress, no tourists.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

>>I think I'll stick to my little corner of Mexico. Quiet, cheap, no stress, no tourists.<<

I'm with you, Carlos! Forget Panama, give me Patzcuaro!


----------



## juancmaires

Good afternoon Alan, 

Let me know if you are still considering moving to Panama. 
Boquete is part of the Province of Chiriqui. In my personal opinion its a great region because you will find rivers, beaches, and mountains (just minutes from each other). It is also very close to Bocas del Toro which has crystal clear beaches and islands. 
Just 6 hours away from Panama City wich many refer to as the Dubai of the Americas. 
I am sure Mexico has beautiful destinations but before making your decision consider the following:
-crime rate
-security
-real state prices
-general cost of living
-The currency is the US dollar
-multi cultural environment

let me know if you have any questions


----------



## Hound Dog

juancmaires said:


> Good afternoon Alan,
> 
> Let me know if you are still considering moving to Panama.
> Boquete is part of the Province of Chiriqui. In my personal opinion its a great region because you will find rivers, beaches, and mountains (just minutes from each other). It is also very close to Bocas del Toro which has crystal clear beaches and islands.
> Just 6 hours away from Panama City wich many refer to as the Dubai of the Americas.
> I am sure Mexico has beautiful destinations but before making your decision consider the following:
> -crime rate
> -security
> -real state prices
> -general cost of living
> -The currency is the US dollar
> -multi cultural environment
> 
> let me know if you have any questions


What, exactly are you trying to say, Juan?

For ten years. we have lived in Mexico both at Lake Chapala and in San Cristobal de Las Casas, both highland (5,000 and 7,000 feet respectively) communities and both within about 45 minues of major metropolitan areas (Guadalajara and Tuxtla Gutierrez). The only significant urban area, as I read this thread, near Boquete, is Panama City which is about six hours distant and, I wonder about the quality of all-weather roads to that capital city. I know this from ten years of having been retired in Latin America:

* Six hours to a major urban area with its amenities is a huge distance even if access to and from that urban area is over excellent, fully modern, all-weather roads. Maybe the road from Boquete to Panama City consists of hours of steering around endless curves through isolated regions or along treacherous mountainous terrain or maybe its all over the most modern autopista. Maybe the road washes out for days or weeks at a time during the rainy season. Those of you considering such access problems had better think twice if that is important to you. These isolated "paradaisical" areas that seem so attractive in the short run may be filled with foreigners paying premium prices to live in close proximity with each other while whiling away the days playing canasta and swilling booze with no way out after so many birdwalks; activities that will drive many insane within short order. Maybe the only Panamanians you will meet in places like Boquete will be gardeners, housekeepers and local merchants serving the foreign community. Since one of the great pleasures of moving to Latin America in retirement is acquainting yourself with another culture, you will find you have not necessarity achieved that in an isolated rural community such as Boquete and soon you will be communicating with the local birdlife.

* What is the crime rate in Boquete vs., let us say for the sake of comparison, Lake Chapala in Mexico? Security? Local cost of living? Multi-cultural environment? There are countless places where one can enjoy a highland tropical climate or a tropical beachfront climate in Mexico according to ones preference from the Guatemala border to Chihuahua state; from Durango state to Veracruz state. Panama, by comparison, is tiny which is OK but, since you brought it up, tell me which parts of Panama and Mexico you intend to compare in each category you have outlined and then we can discuss what is best for the reader. 

You are not trying to sell anything are you. amigo? I am not - I am just curious.


----------



## Hound Dog

juancmaires said:


> Good afternoon Alan,
> 
> Let me know if you are still considering moving to Panama.
> Boquete is part of the Province of Chiriqui. In my personal opinion its a great region because you will find rivers, beaches, and mountains (just minutes from each other). It is also very close to Bocas del Toro which has crystal clear beaches and islands.
> Just 6 hours away from Panama City wich many refer to as the Dubai of the Americas.
> I am sure Mexico has beautiful destinations but before making your decision consider the following:
> -crime rate
> -security
> -real state prices
> -general cost of living
> -The currency is the US dollar
> -multi cultural environment
> 
> let me know if you have any questions



I am quite serious, Juan. There many who read these forums who use the information they get here to make decisions as to where they might consider retiring in Latin America. Why do you ignore my inquiry? Compare the crime rate in parts of Mexico or real estate prices or the cost of living versus that in Boquete or the decadent capital of Panama City. An unfunny joke. Mexico is, in my opinion, light years ahead of parochial Panama, a corrupt and despicable place with an environment displeasing to anyone with a modicum of experience seeking ecological diversity.

I welcome contrary opinions but give those opinions with aplomb and avoid horn blowing in the ether.


----------



## juancmaires

*Panama (a slice of Heaven)*

Good afternoon, 

Hound Dog, let me first start by saying that by no means my intention was to give a bad publicity to Mexico. In my personal opinion Mexico is a beautifull place. As a matter a fact my father is currently living in Monterrey. 
Having said that, there is no need for you to refer to Panama in such a (snipped by moderator) way. I am sure that lake Chapala and San Cristobal de las Casas are exquisite places to live, visit, and retire. Unfortunately for you, you have not been able to learn the good ways and manner of the community you are living in.
I will ask you to remember that this forum is not to start a personal argument between you and me, but to help AlanR in his search for a retirement place. 
Please do not respond any other message to me as I will ignore them. Use your energy to continue helping AlanR. 

AlanR, I invite you to research publications from "International Living" and such alike publications. It will also be great if you could come over and visit (that will help you have a better idea)

In conclusion, below a list of why Panama is an ideal paradise to retire

English widely spoken 
Exceptionally high quality of life 
U.S. Dollar is currency of trade 
Domestic services at very low cost. Example: live in maid for $130 month 
Incredibly low overall cost of living 
Permanent resident visa available with little "red tape". Assistance can be provided 
100 International banks 
Second largest Free Trade Zone in the world 
There are direct flights daily from Panama City to seven major U.S. cities: Los Angeles, Newark, Miami, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, and Orlando, including a variety of European destinations. 
Excellent hospitals and medical care


----------



## Hound Dog

juancmaires said:


> Good afternoon,
> 
> Hound Dog, let me first start by saying that by no means my intention was to give a bad publicity to Mexico. In my personal opinion Mexico is a beautifull place. As a matter a fact my father is currently living in Monterrey.
> Having said that, there is no need for you to refer to Panama in such an ignorant and undeducated way. I am sure that lake Chapala and San Cristobal de las Casas are exquisite places to live, visit, and retire. Unfortunately for you, you have not been able to learn the good ways and manner of the community you are living in.
> I will ask you to remember that this forum is not to start a personal argument between you and me, but to help AlanR in his search for a retirement place.
> Please do not respond any other message to me as I will ignore them. Use your energy to continue helping AlanR.
> 
> AlanR, I invite you to research publications from "International Living" and such alike publications. It will also be great if you could come over and visit (that will help you have a better idea)
> 
> In conclusion, below a list of why Panama is an ideal paradise to retire
> 
> English widely spoken
> Exceptionally high quality of life
> U.S. Dollar is currency of trade
> Domestic services at very low cost. Example: live in maid for $130 month
> Incredibly low overall cost of living
> Permanent resident visa available with little "red tape". Assistance can be provided
> 100 International banks
> Second largest Free Trade Zone in the world
> There are direct flights daily from Panama City to seven major U.S. cities: Los Angeles, Newark, Miami, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, and Orlando, including a variety of European destinations.
> Excellent hospitals and medical care


AlanR:

Beware of promoters of such places as Panama or adjacent Central American enclaves as places attractive for escape into seemingly paradaisical circumstances. Almost anyone who touts such a place has an underlying profit motive. Juan´s patronizing and insulting response to my inquisitive post is meant to belittle that response and induce you to think my inquiry inconsequential and that is fine but once you find yourself financially and personally invested in some Central American backwater touted as the answer to all of your previously conceived negatives exhibited by the place from whence you came, you may find it far more difficult to extricate yourself from that environment if you find it not to your liking but, by then, it may be too late and there you are. Some extolling the virtues of isolated Caribbean and Central American communities do not have the potential investor´s interests at heart but simply smell opportunity and that is OK, but make your decision as to where to retire in the Latin American tropics or sub-tropics rationally and not based on touts pushing marginal communities being exploited by developers seeking short term profits before boarding the the next steamer to Miami. 

I can smell these guys the way my dog smells a rodent.

We in Mexico do not solicit nor need the accolades of anyone nor do we desire further settlement by outsiders who, we hope, will all head for Panama and other points south. Thanks anyway, Juan.


----------



## conklinwh

We did not seriously look at Panama, Costa Rica, Equador or anywhere else in Latin America that required an airline flight. If I wanted the requirement to fly, my choices would be Bali or Phuket but that besides the point. We have had friends that have looked at all of the above options. Almost unanimously if they hadn't picked Mexico it would have been Costa Rica. Equador was too remote and Panama was too much like a Latin Florida.
That being said, as with any place, you need to see for your self as this very much a personal decision. What I would strongly suggest is that you firmly decide to make no permanent decision on the 1st visit. We have all heard horror stories about people pressured to buy, even in resort parts of Mexico, that had saner 2nd thoughts and almost no way to recover funds. We did a lot of world traveling looking at the options to decide what we really wanted.
Our "required set" was an artist community as my wife is a painter and significant history and the ability to explore as that my interest. We also decided that with 4 children and 6 grand children scattered throughout the US that we wanted to be as close as possible and the ability to drive to the US in one day became very important for our friends and family tours.
You need your own list, but please go slowly-visit a few options, try a longer term rental(multiple seasons if that a decision point) and a real good rent/buy analysis before settling as expect your thoughts will change once you settle in.
Good luck on your analysis!


----------



## Hound Dog

conklinwh said:


> We did not seriously look at Panama, Costa Rica, Equador or anywhere else in Latin America that required an airline flight. If I wanted the requirement to fly, my choices would be Bali or Phuket but that besides the point. We have had friends that have looked at all of the above options. Almost unanimously if they hadn't picked Mexico it would have been Costa Rica. Equador was too remote and Panama was too much like a Latin Florida.
> That being said, as with any place, you need to see for your self as this very much a personal decision. What I would strongly suggest is that you firmly decide to make no permanent decision on the 1st visit. We have all heard horror stories about people pressured to buy, even in resort parts of Mexico, that had saner 2nd thoughts and almost no way to recover funds. We did a lot of world traveling looking at the options to decide what we really wanted.
> Our "required set" was an artist community as my wife is a painter and significant history and the ability to explore as that my interest. We also decided that with 4 children and 6 grand children scattered throughout the US that we wanted to be as close as possible and the ability to drive to the US in one day became very important for our friends and family tours.
> You need your own list, but please go slowly-visit a few options, try a longer term rental(multiple seasons if that a decision point) and a real good rent/buy analysis before settling as expect your thoughts will change once you settle in.
> Good luck on your analysis!


These "******" enclaves from isolated high-tropic valleys in Panama or other Central hellholes inhabited by foreigners trying desparately to escape cold, miserable northern winters with absolutely no true concept of where they are going to end up are pathetic reminders of human naivete. How pathetic that so many end up drinking themselves to death in a desperate attempt to be happy while isolated on some God-forsaken sand spit at first seeming as heaven but transforming itself into a stinking crab pot offering nothing more than glasses of tequila to temporarily heal the mental pain attendant to isolation without purpose.


----------



## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> These "******" enclaves from isolated high-tropic valleys in Panama or other Central hellholes inhabited by foreigners trying desparately to escape cold, miserable northern winters with absolutely no true concept of where they are going to end up are pathetic reminders of human naivete. How pathetic that so many end up drinking themselves to death in a desperate attempt to be happy while isolated on some God-forsaken sand spit at first seeming as heaven but transforming itself into a stinking crab pot offering nothing more than glasses of tequila to temporarily heal the mental pain attendant to isolation without purpose.


Great poetry. Maybe even true for some people. Definitely one perspective, and worth making sure it doesn't apply to you.


----------



## conklinwh

Hound dog, I hope that you are "firing foe effect"! In my experience in some 30+ countries, expats around the world tend to be more stable and balanced than those not willing to look at a broader set of options. Sure I've seen groups of drunken expats in Singapore bars trying to pick up what are referred to as CPGs(Chinese Party Girls) and expat pity parties in Bangalore but I've also seen a lot of drunken boors in US clubs.
I really think that important for people without a lot of expat experience(tourism doesn't count) to go very slow to focus on what important to them and even then to rent rather than buy for 3-4 years and to always have a viable plan B.


----------



## logansafi

I visited Boquete a year and a half ago and it would be a very nice but completely sedate place to retire in, IMO. Why not travel some instead of just plopping down in one spot though?


----------



## Hound Dog

logansafi said:


> I visited Boquete a year and a half ago and it would be a very nice but completely sedate place to retire in, IMO. Why not travel some instead of just plopping down in one spot though?


An interesting response Logan:

While we have remained in Mexico for the past ten years in retirement, we have found it both enlightening and stimulating to live both at Lake Chapala and in the Chiapas Highlands; two very distinct places even if in the same country. We have found that staying in the same paradaisical but somewhat limited place all year induces boredom and, I suppose, you helped me define what I find delimiting in lving in places like Ajijic and Boquete. Variety is necessary to retain balance in life in my opinion. A couple of year in either place would drive a sane man mad. However, I did not mean to put down those who disagree with me.


----------



## conklinwh

One of the reasons that we chose Mexico is the wide variety of places to visit within "reasonable" drive. We really see our place in Mineral de Pozos, Gto. as a base rather than a place to be tied to although we certainly haven't exhausted all the things we want to explore in the immediate location.
So far we have done Tlaquepaque/Tonala, Puerto Vallarta, Patzcuaro/Morelia, Oaxaca City, San Cristobal(a tough days drive and about the limit of reasonable) along with the obvious locations of Queretaro, San Miguel, Dolores, Guanajuato but our list of additional places we want to visit continues to grow. What a great and diverse country!


----------



## logansafi

I am not quite retired just yet (I am 59 y/o), but in the last 3 years me, my wife, and my daughter have traveled in 5 different Latin American countries, all of which have nice places I would want to spend more time in in the future. All have many spots to be leery about, too, and Mexico has more than its fair share of them at present. That's just the sad truth, I am afraid.

Go to Mexico for the great food...TOPS! Go to Colombia for the great music everywhere and great scenery ...TOPS for both! Go to Boquete, Panama for the tranquility, coffee, safety, and beauty found there. No excitement really in that spot though unless you go farther afield in Panama. Go to Nicaragua for the craziness of the setting, and the friendliness of the people! Go to Costa Rica if Latin America is kind of scary to you in general. But you might get bopped there anyway... It has it's fair share of criminal class and bad attitude and higher prices. Still a good place to visit though if you got the fatter wallet for doing it for very long.

I want to go to all the places I have not gone to though, or to return to Guatemala and Honduras that I visited some 25 years ago. Antigua tops there to spend pleasant time in. Unless I had to, Mexico is just not where I want to plop down in just yet if I can avoid doing that? Too expensive I think, though my wife holds Mexican citizenship SS money does not go a long way and Mexico is pricier than many realize. These decisions sometimes depend a lot on your bank account.


----------



## conklinwh

Logansafi your note is an interesting combination of costs and security. It did strike me as ironic that you implied Columbia safer than Mexico, what a change the election of Uribe has made. My view is that the issue of security which is primarily a drug issue will move around but not go away until the demand is reduced. The US is estimated to have 21 million active illegal drug users(about 7% of population) that drive the whole system. It costs about $1/kilo to harvest coca and is worth about $174K/kilo cut on US streets with by far the biggest jump coming with the US border crossing. The gangs have already moved into Guatemala and there is concern with Costa Rica not having a standing military. As Americans, we should all look in the mirror and say that we are the problem and try to fix the demand issue.
As to costs, we have many friends that live well on social security. However, I do believe that there is a proximity cost. The closer to the US, the higher the cost range scale slides but the scale is very wide. For us, the value of proximity and ability to not be dependent on airlines, more than offsets any cost impact. I guess if we didn't have four kids and 6 grandkids in 4 different states as well as my mother in a 5th, we might feel differently.


----------



## logansafi

Conklinwh, I would not say that Colombia or Mexico are exactly 'safe' places, and neither are any of the Central American countries either. You have to be VERY careful about what parts you are in in all these countries at all times, and act accordingly and stay out of the worse spots if you possibly can.

In Colombia, Uribe has simply beaten down the people through his own violence as much as he has supposedly stopped the violence of other folk involved in hostilities, criminal or political. There are some very dangerous areas in that country and I avoided going into them. Right now, I would avoid certain sections of Mexico as well, including some right across the US- Mexican Border. 

That being said, my wife and daughter are headed that way for Christmas and will take some calculated risks to visit family there. They will be OK, but no way would I want them down there more than for just the Holidays...


----------



## Hound Dog

logansafi said:


> Conklinwh, I would not say that Colombia or Mexico are exactly 'safe' places, and neither are any of the Central American countries either. You have to be VERY careful about what parts you are in in all these countries at all times, and act accordingly and stay out of the worse spots if you possibly can.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Well, I suppose that the notion that one should be mindful of where one is at all times is applicable no matter where one happens be at that time. If Dawg were in New York or Paris or Addis Ababa or Oughagadougou, Dawg would want to be cognizant of his surroundings but this is a fact:
> 
> Today, I live in two urban areas of mexico. The Ajijic delegation of the municipality of Chapala, Jalisco and the El Cerrillo Barrio of San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas - a place noted for the Zapatista rebellion, often unwelcoming indigenous enclaves and a violent and lawless jungle border with Guatemala and I feel a hell of a lot safer there than I did in parts of San Francisco where I lived for many years.
> 
> Go figure.


----------

