# Spanish mortgage debt charged against UK property



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Spanish bank bids to seize couple's UK home after they miss payments on holiday flat | Mail Online


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The comments by the readers do not show much sympathy for these people. I guess they must have overstretched their budget.

Do what I do, pay cash,

Hepa


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> Spanish bank bids to seize couple's UK home after they miss payments on holiday flat | Mail Online


Very worrying for many who thought they could easily walk away from their Spanish commitments.
Probably lots more in the same boat.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> Very worrying for many who thought they could easily walk away from their Spanish commitments.
> Probably lots more in the same boat.




Serves them right. As one unsympathetic poster on the Mail site said, 'Loads of ten bob millionaires round here'.

If the Mail report is to be believed - and we are talking about the Mail, not a newspaper - the couple had taken on commitments well beyond their means.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, just because its in another country doesnt mean its easy to walk away from if things go wrong. I'll bet they'd not be happy if the spanish place had made a profit but the bank took it!??

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Well, just because its in another country doesnt mean its easy to walk away from if things go wrong. I'll bet they'd not be happy if the spanish place had made a profit but the bank took it!??
> 
> Jo xxx



That's what amuses me about capitalism.....people are happy to take the gains associated with risk but expect taxpayers to underwrite them when it's a question of loss.....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Thats the problem with humans, we're instinctively greedy/selfish. We're happy to take, but dont want to have things taken away! Its not always a bad thing, its a survival mechanism, but it cant be changed! 

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> Thats the problem with humans, we're instinctively greedy/selfish. We're happy to take, but dont want to have things taken away! Its not always a bad thing, its a survival mechanism, but it cant be changed!
> 
> Jo xxx


Theym not all humans on this forum here, some I suspect originate from the far side of the moon and further

Hepa


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I have to agree ... there have been loads of warnings about it not being as easy as walking into the bank and throwing the keys over the counter.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

What they should have done was re-mortgage the house in the UK to pay cash for the one in Spain, so avoiding all the nonsense that the spaniards get up to. If, God forbid , I ever had to go back there'd be nothing in our names whatsoever.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

As much as I sympathise with them, it seems to be yet another example of people checking in their common sense at the border as soon as they enter Spain. In the UK most people wouldn't commit to buying a property that there was a chance of them not being able to afford in a change of market or employment conditions, so why here in Spain ?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

There must be a bit more too it than is being told as when they bought the property they would have been paying higher repayments than now due to the interest rate fall.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> What they should have done was re-mortgage the house in the UK to pay cash for the one in Spain, so avoiding all the nonsense that the spaniards get up to. If, God forbid , I ever had to go back there'd be nothing in our names whatsoever.


What nonsense is that, gus?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm afraid people _do_ some strange things when they move abroad, which when you look at some of those things in the cold light of day ... they just dont make sense.

I know it might seem insensitive, but when this kind of thing happens I just dontr understand why they get so upset. People really think they can walk away from a debt with impunity? Why?

I have a family member at the moment who is considering selling his home and moving into a caravan with his family because he realises he has overstretched himself and is struggling. Its not the ideal answer for sure, but he's addressing the problem rather than running away from it

This why when people come on the forums and say they are going to the bank to throw the keys over the counter, the advice all over is caution. Generally it's seen as the easy option though ........ now we're seeing that it's not.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What nonsense is that, gus?


No, it's badly written on my part. I meant , rather than leave yourself open to what terms & penalties they put in to some of their mortgage deals here, & taking in to account if you have problems ( like they have ) the unknown legal system, it would 've been far better to have re-mortgaged the Uk place & paid cash . At least that way they would have been dealing with a system that they , hopefully, understood. It appears though that they must have seriously overstretched themselves if they live in a 300k house , & have done so for 20years, yet it has a 250k mortgage on it ?????


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> That's what amuses me about capitalism.....people are happy to take the gains associated with risk but expect taxpayers to underwrite them when it's a question of loss.....


As against socialism, where they happily throw around taxpayers money like confetti, with no risk,...to themselves at least.


By now we must all be aware of that big box at Manchester airport.
"Be sure to leave your brains in here before boarding".


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> No, it's badly written on my part. I meant , rather than leave yourself open to what terms & penalties they put in to some of their mortgage deals here, & taking in to account if you have problems ( like they have ) the unknown legal system, it would 've been far better to have re-mortgaged the Uk place & paid cash . At least that way they would have been dealing with a system that they , hopefully, understood. It appears though that they must have seriously overstretched themselves if they live in a 300k house , & have done so for 20years, yet it has a 250k mortgage on it ?????


OK, got it now. 
The more I think about it the scarier I think it is going abroad (read that as The Unknown) and buying something as important as a house, which I think is what you're saying.
It's an absolute nightmare trying to do these kind of things in your own language and system, let alone doing it in The Unknown.
Which is not to say it can't be done (look at all the successful forum members) just that _*be aware, be careful and don't leave your brain on the plane*_ 

Hey, we could have a Slogan for Spain thread. What one liner piece of advice would you give to wannabe's ? Aa bit like _*Don't drink the water *_but for the 21st century


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> As against socialism, where they happily throw around taxpayers money like confetti, with no risk,...to themselves at least.
> 
> 
> By now we must all be aware of that big box at Manchester airport.
> "Be sure to leave your brains in here before boarding".



All Governments do that. I don't waste my time criticising 'socialism' as a) we have never had a Government in the UK that could be described as 'socialist' b) Governments of both left and right have been guilty of misuse of taxpayers' money and c) if any Party were daft enough to put even a mildly 'socialist' programme before the electorate it would be rejected. (Labour 1983).
Some people are obssessed with a non-existent bogeyman.
By the way, was Mrs Thatcher acting like a 'socialist'when she imposed that windfall tax on banks' profits..?
Now, that could be said to have a faint scent of socialism about it.... Right-wing Tories criticised it for just that reason. Or does it show the pointlessness of sticking irrelevant labels on sensible actions?
The risk to any democratically elected Government is that if the electorate don't like what you are doing you will be rejected at the polls.
Now....the Conservatives didn't actually *win* the last election, did they?
Which, frankly, was a great surprise to me.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> As against socialism, where they happily throw around taxpayers money like confetti, with no risk,...to themselves at least.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It's a simple fact of life that you don't spend what you haven't got , whether as a family, in business or in government. You budget, you can't assume that what you had as income this year will be there next year. If they'd stuck to this basic principle they wouldn't be in this mess.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> It's a simple fact of life that you don't spend what you haven't got , whether as a family, in business or in government. You budget, you can't assume that what you had as income this year will be there next year. If they'd stuck to this basic principle they wouldn't be in this mess.



That might be partly true of families ...although if it were, no-one would take on a mortgage to buy a house. Life couldn't continue unless you make some assumptions about your future income.
Businesses borrow, at favourable rates when they can, to invest in future money-earning projects if they cannot or do not wish to invest their capital in them. That's what we did when in business to buy expensive equipment and the revenue generated from its acquisition more than covered the costs of the loan repayments. 
That's sound business sense. 
Governments do the same. That's the difference between public debt and the public sector deficit. There is no Government in the world which does not do that.
If Governments and businesses stuck to what you describe as a 'basic principle' there would be no innovation, no investment in plant and equipment and so on. 
The important point is this: you calculate how you will cover your borrowing costs.
Until the banking crisis the UK Government was borrowing more than I would consider prudent - I think the state sector accounts for far too great a percentage of the UK's GDP. 
But the markets didn't think so. Our borrowing is long-term and much of it domestic. Yields didn't rise when Brown spent more on the public sector.
If by balancing the books you mean that revenue from all sources coming in will be *balanced by expenditure including debt repayment* then in general I agree with you.
That is not the case at the moment purely and simply because of the global financial crisis which had to be dealt with by Governments all over the world. I'm sure you're not seriously suggesting that banks should have been allowed to collapse and default. What would have happened to business liquidity, to your pensions, to paying the wages of doctors, teachers....everyone on a payroll, in fact.
Up to that point, whether or not the previous Government was wrong to increase expenditure on the public sector is a matter for political judgment....and the verdict of the electorate, which in May was inconclusive.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> No, it's badly written on my part. I meant , rather than leave yourself open to what terms & penalties they put in to some of their mortgage deals here, & taking in to account if you have problems ( like they have ) the unknown legal system, it would 've been far better to have re-mortgaged the Uk place & paid cash . At least that way they would have been dealing with a system that they , hopefully, understood. It appears though that they must have seriously overstretched themselves if they live in a 300k house , & have done so for 20years, yet it has a 250k mortgage on it ?????



Maybe they did remortgage......to buy a flash car or have an expensive holiday.
After all, most consumer booms are credit fuelled.


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

The main problem with mortgages granted between approximately 2002 and 2006 was that mortgage brokers were involved in obtaining valuations that were grossly overestimated so that purchasers were habitually borrowing 120% or more of the actual value of the property when they should only have been able to borrow a maximum of 70%. This obviously resulted in instant negative equity, a situation which was exacerbated when the bottom fell out of the property market.

The people in the article seem to think that they can just walk away from their debt in Spain and are now looking for sympathy because their Spanish lender is seeking to set their outstanding debt against their UK property. One is tempted to ask what planet they think they are one. Obviously not this one because if they were they would never have taken out the mortgage in the first place.

It is also pertinent to comment on the fact, as mryp9 has done, that if they have owned their UK property for twenty years and it is valued at £300,000 why do they still have an outstanding mortgage of £250,000? This must be almost double the price they originally paid for it.

I would think that the time of the Wiltshire MEP Ashley Fox who said that he will be writing to the European Commision would be better used in helping property owners in Spain who have grave problems through no fault of their own and if there is any sympathy going begging it should be for the innocent purchasers who paid outright for their property only to be told, once they had handed over all of their money to developers, estate agents, lawyers, architects, local mayors and the tax authorities, that their properties were summarily being declared illegal and would be demolished.

These same people, at least the ones whose properties are not under immediate threat of demolition, are now being persuaded to hand over even more money to the lawyers and architects who got them into trouble in the first place so that their properties can be 'regularised' or their escrituras 'upgraded'.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The only thing we've ever had was a mortgage, credit cards were always used for convenience & paid off in full every month. Anything in business I always paid cash for. I have two brothers -in-law & both run large business's & pay for everything upfront , even though their accountants hate it & try to get them to do otherwise. One B-i-l & his wife have never , ever had credit cards.
Personally I've never used a financial advisor, I've never found one that could lie in bed straight, nor had accounts that pay interest as I don't agree with it. As for a pension chance would be a fine thing. The way it's going it doesn't even look like I'll get the gov. one I've paid in for either.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

littleredrooster said:


> As against socialism, where they happily throw around taxpayers money like confetti, with no risk,...to themselves at least.
> 
> 
> By now we must all be aware of that big box at Manchester airport.
> "Be sure to leave your brains in here before boarding".


Only at Manchester, yes?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Personally I've never used a financial advisor, I've never found one that could lie in bed straight,



I have used one and still am. He is a damned fine fellow and has and is making me a lot of dosh!


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

I have always looked upon them as another of the Mr Ten Percent (or more) brigade. For me they are in the same low-life category as mortgage brokers, lawyers and racing tipsters. I advise myself whether it is investments, property conveyancing or whatever. That way if things go wrong I only have myself to blame.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> The only thing we've ever had was a mortgage, credit cards were always used for convenience & paid off in full every month. Anything in business I always paid cash for. I have two brothers -in-law & both run large business's & pay for everything upfront , even though their accountants hate it & try to get them to do otherwise. One B-i-l & his wife have never , ever had credit cards.
> Personally I've never used a financial advisor, I've never found one that could lie in bed straight, nor had accounts that pay interest as I don't agree with it. As for a pension chance would be a fine thing. The way it's going it doesn't even look like I'll get the gov. one I've paid in for either.




Paying invoices upfront isn't the same as borrowing to fund the purchase of expensive equipment which once bought can generate income both to cover the cost of the loan repayment and bring in a profit.
If you can borrow at, say, 4 percent and invest your profit capital at 5 percent, you'd be a poor businessperson if you decided to use your capital to buy new stuff.
But I agree with you about credit cards. I always paid off the amount owed each month....Amex told me I was a 'bad' customer as they made no money from me.
I've never had a mortgage as I've always bought 'cheap' older properties for cash,then borrowed money as a stand-alone short-term loan to do them up and sold for a profit.
Bit gus, the whole capitalist system is based on using money to make money so how can you say you 'don't agree with interest?'
I'm sure your pension will be OK....yours and mine


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> I have always looked upon them as another of the Mr Ten Percent (or more) brigade. For me they are in the same low-life category as mortgage brokers, lawyers and racing tipsters. I advise myself whether it is investments, property conveyancing or whatever. That way if things go wrong I only have myself to blame.


Agree 90 percent but can't and won't condemn all lawyers per se.
We had a marvellous lawyer in the UK, would use him if needed here in Spain. He dealt with business, family and professional matters honestly and efficiently with 100 per cent satisfactory outcomes.
And with reasonable fees.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Beachcomber said:


> I have always looked upon them as another of the Mr Ten Percent (or more) brigade. For me they are in the same low-life category as mortgage brokers, lawyers and racing tipsters. I advise myself whether it is investments, property conveyancing or whatever. That way if things go wrong I only have myself to blame.


Well last year I got a 14% return.


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Agree 90 percent but can't and won't condemn all lawyers per se...


I should have specified 'property conveyancing lawyers'!

I have a friend in Almería who is a lawyer to whom I would have no hesitation in turning in the event of a serious legal problem but he he would consider it to be beneath his dignity to check out a property and would be most offended if I asked him to do so. As far as he is concerned property conveyancing is for the lowest of the low of the members of his profession who do not have the wherewithal to do anything else.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Paying invoices upfront isn't the same as borrowing to fund the purchase of expensive equipment which once bought can generate income both to cover the cost of the loan repayment and bring in a profit.
> If you can borrow at, say, 4 percent and invest your profit capital at 5 percent, you'd be a poor businessperson if you decided to use your capital to buy new stuff.
> But I agree with you about credit cards. I always paid off the amount owed each month....Amex told me I was a 'bad' customer as they made no money from me.
> I've never had a mortgage as I've always bought 'cheap' older properties for cash,then borrowed money as a stand-alone short-term loan to do them up and sold for a profit.
> ...


No, my in-laws only pay cash for all there machinery, vehicles, etc, stupid, probably but they've always worked that way & prefer it like that. The elder b-i-l , who uses only self-employed contractors for all his work , supplies them all with vans!! Even I can't get my head round that one.

Interest, no I don't agree with it, nor any form of 'unearned income .' I used to save with a building society when that's what they were but when they basically became banks I left my money in the bank . When they started offering interest paying accounts I declined nor have I ever used a cash machine in the UK. I said from the outset that the only reason the banks wanted to introduce them was to cut staff & that's what they did. I use them here in spain as my bank has no problems opening new branches in town , creating employment.

It always makes me laugh when I see programmes on the tv where they say no one uses cash these days , or the police programmes where they say carrying of in excess of 1k is enough reason to detain you when most of the people I know carry large sums & have done all their lives.


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> No, my in-laws only pay cash for all there machinery, vehicles, etc, stupid, probably but they've always worked that way & prefer it like that. The elder b-i-l , who uses only self-employed contractors for all his work , supplies them all with vans!! Even I can't get my head round that one.
> 
> Interest, no I don't agree with it, nor any form of 'unearned income .' I used to save with a building society when that's what they were but when they basically became banks I left my money in the bank . When they started offering interest paying accounts I declined nor have I ever used a cash machine in the UK. I said from the outset that the only reason the banks wanted to introduce them was to cut staff & that's what they did. I use them here in spain as my bank has no problems opening new branches in town , creating employment.
> 
> It always makes me laugh when I see programmes on the tv where they say no one uses cash these days , or the police programmes where they say carrying of in excess of 1k is enough reason to detain you when most of the people I know carry large sums & have done all their lives.


I think that Spanish ppl.are wisely not quite so trusting of modern technology,although there are other obvious reasons why they often prefer hard cash 

Spending a lot of time in Sweden I see the opposite extreme.
Customers queuing up in supermarkets to pay for almost every little thing down to a bar of chocolate with a credit card.
Also queueing up at a bar in the pub, for each person to pay for every little drink seperately,one at a time, with a credit card,...no, they very rarely buy rounds even when going out as a group,.....drives the British bar staff bonkers.
About fifteen years ago I tried to use my cheque book there on a couple of occasions, but they looked at me in astonishment as though I still belonged back in the stone age.
The chances of black money or dodging taxes is extremely thin.
Big brother up there knows your every single move.

Myself,I much prefer the Spanish style


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It was like that in the Czech Republic....most people use cash even for quite large transactions.
When we decided to move to Spain I changed all my Czech money in the bank into euros. Of course I paid a hefty fee on this transaction. My Czech friend was horrified and said I should have withdrawn the money and taken the cash to a money-changer in the city.
She saw nothing odd in suggesting I carry the equivalent of several years wages for most Czechs on a bus and the metro in a bag!!!
But then her husband, a leading local politician and Mayor doesn't even possess a debit card, let alone credit card.
Frankly, I see no virtue in this approach. Agreed, much technology is complex, erratic and unsafe - although my son, who has an IT consultancy business contracting IT support to City financial institutions, would disagree.
But the sheer convenience of having access to your money via a thin slip of plastic is imo just fabulous..
Incidentally......I bang on on this forum about British jobs for British workers...and in times of crisis you would think banks funded by the UK taxpayer would do all they can to support that.
My son is currently working with a leading UK bank partly owned by the taxpayer. He kept referring to his 'team' of workers and said he had rewarded them for their efforts with a hamper of goodies. I naively assumed these people were in the next room.....but no, they are in India!!!!!
It is obviously more advantageous to recruit skilled workers in India who will happily work for £50 a day in their hand than British workers who would expect the going rate of £500 a day for the same work.
What, given these circumstances, can any UK Government do in a free society to make sure jobs in Britain go to British workers?


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## Metalmicky (Sep 17, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Serves them right. As one unsympathetic poster on the Mail site said, 'Loads of ten bob millionaires round here'.
> 
> If the Mail report is to be believed - and we are talking about the Mail, not a newspaper - the couple had taken on commitments well beyond their means.



Hey come on - we all know the score here! Up to 2 years ago anyone who had a passport and a pulse could get a mortgage in Spain. There were dozens of firms offering to supply 'documentation' for ‘accounting purposes’ and we all know what they were used for. I know of individuals who came to Spain jobless and in weeks had a villa with all the trappings. If you take credit as a secured loan, then you can expect to lose the asset and if the realization value is lower than the balance of the loan, expect the lenders to demand the difference – it is usual business practice anywhere else, so why not here?
I feel genuine sorrow for those who find themselves in a no-win negative equity situation, they had no control over what has happened and should be helped by the lenders. Those who already have an expensive home in UK and acquire similar over here on fairly modest salaries, and those ‘chancers’ who took advantage of a loose system do not get my sympathy vote. Sorry


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Metalmicky said:


> Hey come on - we all know the score here! Up to 2 years ago anyone who had a passport and a pulse could get a mortgage in Spain. There were dozens of firms offering to supply 'documentation' for ‘accounting purposes’ and we all know what they were used for. I know of individuals who came to Spain jobless and in weeks had a villa with all the trappings. If you take credit as a secured loan, then you can expect to lose the asset and if the realization value is lower than the balance of the loan, expect the lenders to demand the difference – it is usual business practice anywhere else, so why not here?
> I feel genuine sorrow for those who find themselves in a no-win negative equity situation, they had no control over what has happened and should be helped by the lenders. Those who already have an expensive home in UK and acquire similar over here on fairly modest salaries, and those ‘chancers’ who took advantage of a loose system do not get my sympathy vote. Sorry


Sorry but I can't see what point you are making. Yes, it was easy to borrow money at one time....does that absolve people from exercising financial responsibility? I'm sick of people who are happy to gain but whine when they lose.
As far as I am concerned, you borrow and take a risk. These paramedics borrowed, took the risk,....and lost out. Tough. They look like grown-ups to me from the photo so I assume they were aware of the risks they were taking.
Why on earth should 'lenders' or the state help those in negative equity? I'm a lender....my assets, which I worked over many years to accumulate, are mainly in UK in banks and getting a very poor return. Are you saying that I and others should subsidise the feckless or unlucky? I'm gritting my teeth and adjusting to the loss in anticipated income, like many others in Spain and elsewhere who are experiencing not only low interest rates but a sharp depreciation in the value of their sterling incomes.
People who have taken on huge loans are benefiting from low interest rates. Investors are suffering.
It always amuses me how people are happy to see a property bought for say sterling 200k rise in market value to sterling 400k. No complaints there. But to whine when value decreases and expect 'help' from lenders i.e. savers is frankly selfish and infantile.
We all prefer the capitalist system...so learn to live with it or sod off to Venezuela.
Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose.
Don't expect me and other savers to subsidise these people's misfortune - we are also experiencing the effects of the crisis.
Why should someone else foot the bill...lenders, taxpayers...that means people who try to be prudent and live within their means.
Far too many people have a sense of entitlement these days.
They bought the ticket...so take the ride.


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## Metalmicky (Sep 17, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry but I can't see what point you are making. Yes, it was easy to borrow money at one time....does that absolve people from exercising financial responsibility? I'm sick of people who are happy to gain but whine when they lose.
> As far as I am concerned, you borrow and take a risk. These paramedics borrowed, took the risk,....and lost out. Tough. They look like grown-ups to me from the photo so I assume they were aware of the risks they were taking.
> Why on earth should 'lenders' or the state help those in negative equity? I'm a lender....my assets, which I worked over many years to accumulate, are mainly in UK in banks and getting a very poor return. Are you saying that I and others should subsidise the feckless or unlucky? I'm gritting my teeth and adjusting to the loss in anticipated income, like many others in Spain and elsewhere who are experiencing not only low interest rates but a sharp depreciation in the value of their sterling incomes.
> People who have taken on huge loans are benefiting from low interest rates. Investors are suffering.
> ...


Oooh flippin' eck - thats telling us all! Whatever you do, don't mention money to Mr YPG9. Glad I'm not his bank manager.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Metalmicky said:


> Oooh flippin' eck - thats telling us all! Whatever you do, don't mention money to Mr YPG9. Glad I'm not his bank manager.


How dare you assume I'm male!!!!
I got on well socially with my UK bank manager as well as with money-related matters, as a matter of fact. Perhaps because I didn't live beyond my means.....
There are loads of people who did 'all the right things' - i.e. worked, never took a penny off the state, never got into debt of any kind (including mortgage debt) and put away money for a decent standard of living in retirement.
Now we are hit by a double whammy in the form of low interest rates and sliding sterling.
How can we have sympathy for people who take on debts presumably knowing the risk then whine when things turn sour?
I'd have more sympathy if, when the value of their house rose, they donated a large slice of the unearned income to a charity of their choice. 
Someone posted that socialists are good at 'throwing people's money around like confetti'.
Asking lenders to go easy on people who go into negative equity is throwing other people's money around....mine and all the other poor sods who are stuck with interest rates below 3 per cent in many cases.


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

What isn't clear to me in the article is what the current valuation is on their property. The assumption in the replies is that they are in negative equity in Spain and this is probably true. However it would be interesting whether if the bank theoretically had sufficient equity in their apartment but given the parlous state of the Spanish property market decided to go after their UK property as they deem that more saleable. Is that possible?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> What isn't clear to me in the article is what the current valuation is on their property. The assumption in the replies is that they are in negative equity in Spain and this is probably true. However it would be interesting whether if the bank theoretically had sufficient equity in their apartment but given the parlous state of the Spanish property market decided to go after their UK property as they deem that more saleable. Is that possible?


Well, yes, of course. A loan is a loan. If I owed you money you would expect to receive repayment from any assets I 'owned', wouldn't you?
The nucleus of all this is that the couple borrowed money. They defaulted on repayment. Assets seized.
It's what happens....
They should have read the small print


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

Not sure you understood me, I'm mooting that their Spanish apartment is a sufficient asset for the bank to cover their debt ( in valuation terms) but if the bank think that it will be difficult to sell, it is preferentially going after a different asset( their UK property) as it may be easier to convert to a liquid asset.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> Not sure you understood me, I'm mooting that their Spanish apartment is a sufficient asset for the bank to cover their debt ( in valuation terms) but if the bank think that it will be difficult to sell, it is preferentially going after a different asset( their UK property) as it may be easier to convert to a liquid asset.


I see...but whatever, if you don't pay, your assets will be seized and that is only to be expected.
The EU law enabling debts accrued in one member state to be pursued in another has been in force for a couple of years now, if I remember rightly so anyone with financial dealings in an EU state other than their own should keep abreast of legal developments relating to borrowing.
I just can't understand why this hapless couple are surprised to find that their UK assets are under threat of forfeiture. Did they think that they could never be held to account for failing to repay 'Spanish' debts?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Nigeljay said:


> Not sure you understood me, I'm mooting that their Spanish apartment is a sufficient asset for the bank to cover their debt ( in valuation terms) but if the bank think that it will be difficult to sell, it is preferentially going after a different asset( their UK property) as it may be easier to convert to a liquid asset.


Nigel (great name by the way ) that's a very interesting point. Sort of cherry picking. For sure if bailiffs enter your home they take items that are the easiest to sell and easiest to transport. At that stage you have been given the chance to pay, failed to do so, and passed the decisions to the agents of the aggrieved party.

However when you say the bank think "that it will be difficult to sell" that would suggest an over evaluation. It surely is only worth what you can sell it for.


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I see...but whatever, if you don't pay, your assets will be seized and that is only to be expected.
> The EU law enabling debts accrued in one member state to be pursued in another has been in force for a couple of years now, if I remember rightly so anyone with financial dealings in an EU state other than their own should keep abreast of legal developments relating to borrowing.
> I just can't understand why this hapless couple are surprised to find that their UK assets are under threat of forfeiture. Did they think that they could never be held to account for failing to repay 'Spanish' debts?


Yes but my point is can a Spanish Bank choose which asset to pursue against a defaulted mortgage on a Spanish property even if the Spanish property theoretically is sufficient to discharge the debt and costs. Could they for example say that you have sufficient cash in a German bank to repay the mortgage and costs and we would rather have that than your Spanish property on which we hold the mortgage. ( that doesn't apply to me by the way and is only a theoretical example)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I just can't understand why this hapless couple are surprised to find that their UK assets are under threat of forfeiture. Did they think that they could never be held to account for failing to repay 'Spanish' debts?


I agree. Surely if you're going to borrow large sums of money in a foreign country, you should investigate the consequences. Its a risk and with all risks "knowledge is power". Not only can you make money by taking risks, you can lose it as well!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> Yes but my point is can a Spanish Bank choose which asset to pursue against a defaulted mortgage on a Spanish property even if the Spanish property theoretically is sufficient to discharge the debt and costs. Could they for example say that you have sufficient cash in a German bank to repay the mortgage and costs and we would rather have that than your Spanish property on which we hold the mortgage. ( that doesn't apply to me by the way and is only a theoretical example)


I would think the answer is 'yes'. After all, if I lend you money my sole interest is getting back the full value of the debt, if possible, from whatever assets you may hold.
European Repayment Orders or whatever they're called have made debt collection so much easier throughout the EU.
And rightly so.
I may be wrong but I get the feeling that far too many people have regarded Spain as some kind of banana republic where you can arrive, live beyond your means with the aid of loans you might not be able to repay. or by doing dodgy work on the black...and then when the proverbial hits the fan you just ****** off back to the UK.
'Ten bob millionaires', as someone posting in The Daily Mail described them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I agree. Surely if you're going to borrow large sums of money in a foreign country, you should investigate the consequences. Its a risk and with all risks "knowledge is power". Not only can you make money by taking risks, you can lose it as well!
> 
> Jo xxx


Agreed!

What irks me is that people complain when they lose but take their good luck for granted when they win.
They are the people who expect help from 'lenders' or 'taxpayers'. Perhaps they are socialists but aren't aware of it...
But they never consider sharing their luck when times are good.......


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I would think the answer is 'yes'. After all, if I lend you money my sole interest is getting back the full value of the debt, if possible, from whatever assets you may hold.
> European Repayment Orders or whatever they're called have made debt collection so much easier throughout the EU.
> And rightly so.
> I may be wrong but I get the feeling that far too many people have regarded Spain as some kind of banana republic where you can arrive, live beyond your means with the aid of loans you might not be able to repay. or by doing dodgy work on the black...and then when the proverbial hits the fan you just ****** off back to the UK.
> 'Ten bob millionaires', as someone posting in The Daily Mail described them.


My final comment on that is that I bet many UK expats who have mortgages on their Spanish property believe that, like in the UK, the banks will collect its debt from that property first and only if there is a residual indebtedness after that will they go after other assets


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Nigeljay said:


> My final comment on that is that I bet many UK expats who have mortgages on their Spanish property believe that, like in the UK, the banks will collect its debt from that property first and only if there is a residual indebtedness after that will they go after other assets


So .... do you think a bank in the UK would pursue someones assets in Spain if the situation were the other way around?

I'm wondering also how SOL Bank knew this couple had another home in the UK ... I assume they must have used the address when they were buying the Spanish property.

Not that it applies to me as I dont have a mortgage, but afaik my Bank doesnt know anything about my UK assets / address


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> So .... do you think a bank in the UK would pursue someones assets in Spain if the situation were the other way around?
> 
> I'm wondering also how SOL Bank knew this couple had another home in the UK ... I assume they must have used the address when they were buying the Spanish property.
> 
> Not that it applies to me as I dont have a mortgage, but afaik my Bank doesnt know anything about my UK assets / address


Apparently what the spanish bank have done can't be done by a uk lender. Ie; if a spanish person buys in the uk ,like this couple, then can't afford to pay & hand in the keys & return to their spanish home , the UK lender is not able to use a ER order in the same way that the spaniards can. 
What many people don't realise is that when you take out a mortgage with a spanish bank the foreclosure terms ( all costs, legalcosts, charges, advertising the propert for sale, etc. ) are included from the outset & are usually draconian. 
Someone I know who purchased for 300k with a 200k mortgage found that her debt to the bank was not far short of 450k when she had to walk away.

Mary " ten bob millionaires " , I prefer the old one , " all fur coat & no knickers "


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigeljay said:


> My final comment on that is that I bet many UK expats who have mortgages on their Spanish property believe that, like in the UK, the banks will collect its debt from that property first and only if there is a residual indebtedness after that will they go after other assets


I think many British immigrants -for that is w hat we are, immigrants, believe Spain is part of the British Commonwealth... I never ceased to be amazed at the insularity of some Brits here.
Whatever they may believe, the fact is that a debt is a debt and must be repaid in one way or another.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Apparently what the spanish bank have done can't be done by a uk lender. Ie; if a spanish person buys in the uk ,like this couple, then can't afford to pay & hand in the keys & return to their spanish home , the UK lender is not able to use a ER order in the same way that the spaniards can.
> What many people don't realise is that when you take out a mortgage with a spanish bank the foreclosure terms ( all costs, legalcosts, charges, advertising the propert for sale, etc. ) are included from the outset & are usually draconian.
> Someone I know who purchased for 300k with a 200k mortgage found that her debt to the bank was not far short of 450k when she had to walk away.
> 
> Mary " ten bob millionaires " , I prefer the old one , " all fur coat & no knickers "


Yes, I like that one too...
Gus, are you sure that the UK is exempt from the new rules? I think not.....


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

If purchasers were aware of the full implications of taking out a Spanish mortgage I believe that no-one would ever do so. I don't know of anyone with a mortgage who had the mortgage escritura translated to them. It is usually a case of 'Zat iss fine, pliss sign here'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> If purchasers were aware of the full implications of taking out a Spanish mortgage I believe that no-one would ever do so. I don't know of anyone with a mortgage who had the mortgage escritura translated to them. It is usually a case of 'Zat iss fine, pliss sign here'.



If I had ever considered purchasing property in Spain I would have either a) taken a trusted bilingual friend along when documents had to be signed etc. or b) taken a large dictionary with me to supplement myinsufficient knowledge of the language or c) have done nothing unless I had an authenticated English translation of any documentation.
It seems absurd that anyone would sign a document which involves the payment of substantial sums without being fully cognisant of what they were about to commit themselves to.


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## Nigeljay (Dec 1, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Apparently what the spanish bank have done can't be done by a uk lender. Ie; if a spanish person buys in the uk ,like this couple, then can't afford to pay & hand in the keys & return to their spanish home , the UK lender is not able to use a ER order in the same way that the spaniards can.
> What many people don't realise is that when you take out a mortgage with a spanish bank the foreclosure terms ( all costs, legalcosts, charges, advertising the propert for sale, etc. ) are included from the outset & are usually draconian.
> Someone I know who purchased for 300k with a 200k mortgage found that her debt to the bank was not far short of 450k when she had to walk away.
> 
> Mary " ten bob millionaires " , I prefer the old one , " all fur coat & no knickers "


450K owed on a 200K mortgage. I would consider that usurious. No wonder bankers are despised.


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

I agree. Have you ever been present when even a simple escritura of purchase sale has been 'translated' whether by a so-called bilingual lawyer or a 'sworn' translator? It is pure gobbledy-**** and frequently consists of a string of individually translated words rather than a translation of meanings.

I once overheard someone in a notary's office translating 'separación de bienes' as 'separated' which totally mystified the the happily married purchasers who were told that 'this is usual'.

Given the importance of the difference between 'separacion de bienes' and 'comunidad be bienes' it was one occasion on which I felt unable to keep my mouth shut!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> I agree. Have you ever been present when even a simple escritura of purchase sale has been 'translated' whether by a so-called bilingual lawyer or a 'sworn' translator? It is pure gobbledy-**** and frequently consists of a string of individually translated words rather than a translation of meanings.
> 
> I once overheard someone in a notary's office translating 'separación de bienes' as 'separated' which totally mystified the the happily married purchasers who were told that 'this is usual'.
> 
> Given the importance of the difference between 'separacion de bienes' and 'comunidad be bienes' it was one occasion on which I felt unable to keep my mouth shut!


No, I haven't been present at such an occasion...and it doesn't sound like a barrel of laughs!
Your anecdote amused me.
I used to work as a freelance translator/interpreter of French and German as a sideline to earn extra money and I have been told of some hilarious mistranslations...
I once used the wrong verb when living in the Czech Republic and told a startled Secretary that I was screwing her boss...I meant to say I was looking for him.
I also told someone who asked me for directions in Prague that I couldn't help as I was an angel.
The words for angel and English are vaguely similar in Czech.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I like that one too...
> Gus, are you sure that the UK is exempt from the new rules? I think not.....


No , they are not exempt it's just that they cannot use the ERO in the way the spanish can. To use it it has to be 'uncontested ' & in Spanish law, "a buyer taking out a mortgage gives up the right to contest the debt", and this is taken as evidence of agreeing to the claim. This is not possible under english law. They would have to sell the property 1st then chase the couple for any shortfall. With a spanish mortgage all the details of how you will be ripped off are in the document from the outset , so as soon as you walk away the terms come in too effect . Handing the keys in , dación de pago, is only usually accepted by the bank when they can see that there is enough in it for it to be worth their while or a friend, family or relative is likely to take it off their hands.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> No , they are not exempt it's just that they cannot use the ERO in the way the spanish can. To use it it has to be 'uncontested ' & in Spanish law, "a buyer taking out a mortgage gives up the right to contest the debt", and this is taken as evidence of agreeing to the claim. This is not possible under english law. They would have to sell the property 1st then chase the couple for any shortfall. With a spanish mortgage all the details of how you will be ripped off are in the document from the outset , so as soon as you walk away the terms come in too effect . Handing the keys in , dación de pago, is only usually accepted by the bank when they can see that there is enough in it for it to be worth their while or a friend, family or relative is likely to take it off their hands.


I see. 
There's no way we will ever own property again so none of this affects us, thankfully...
We're thinking of staying here for a few more years then maybe spending some months in rural France before moving on.
The joys of being footloose and fancy-free!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The only translator I use is a lady who was born in the UK ,of spanish parents, & spent the 1st 20 years of her life their, only returning to spain when her parents retired & purchased a restaurant near here. She is fluent in both spanish & english , both literally & colloquially , written & spoken , as is her brother.


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