# Bodies found near Lake Chapala



## Detailman

Just read about this on a number of different news sites. 15 - 18 bodies in two vans on a dirt access road just outside of Lake Chapala. Below is one site.

http://www.sunherald.com/2012/05/09/v-print/3937617/police-find-bodies-near-mexican.html

Apparent that deaths are related to the ongoing drug wars between the cartels. 

Sad it is getting closer to Lakeside but that is the increasingly violent world we are living in.


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## FHBOY

D:
I'd like to hear from the Lakeside people - how much play did this incident get? What is the effect on the community?

I should hope the "Chicken Little" effect doesn't take hold. 

 But wait a second, if it does, does that mean expats will be leaving in droves, reducing the cost of buying a house there, bringing prices down in general? Hey, so what's the problem1 

NOTE - link didn't work, have to register to read it.


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## pappabee

FHBOY said:


> D:
> I'd like to hear from the Lakeside people - how much play did this incident get? What is the effect on the community?
> 
> I should hope the "Chicken Little" effect doesn't take hold.
> 
> But wait a second, if it does, does that mean expats will be leaving in droves, reducing the cost of buying a house there, bringing prices down in general? Hey, so what's the problem1
> 
> NOTE - link didn't work, have to register to read it.


Take a look at the Guad Reporter, there's an article there also.

Guadalajara Reporter

It also looks like there were 4 more deaths and 15 or so escapees.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> D:
> I'd like to hear from the Lakeside people - how much play did this incident get? What is the effect on the community?
> 
> I should hope the "Chicken Little" effect doesn't take hold.
> 
> But wait a second, if it does, does that mean expats will be leaving in droves, reducing the cost of buying a house there, bringing prices down in general? Hey, so what's the problem1
> 
> NOTE - link didn't work, have to register to read it.


Sorry about that. If a person googles "bodies in van in lake chapala area" they will find numerous news sites reporting on it.

Fact is that Lakeside is still safer than many places in the USA. (Not so bad in Canada as most regular folks don't have guns due to our laws.)

BUT - about a week ago a Vancouver drug dealer was killed in Mexico and the police here in Vancouver were worried about retribution. In the last week there have been two or three drug hits. (They didn't miss so deaths were involved.) 

I live here and it means virtually nothing to my safety because I avoid certain areas and if I was going to go out at night there are many high end entertainment places that I would also avoid. Some restaurants also. I say high end places as those are often frequented by gang members who are rolling in cash. Common sense dictates, as always.

I like your comment about any "chicken littles." Right or wrong, others can benefit from exagerated fears.


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## conorkilleen

You guys will be just fine. I live in Monterrey and I am just fine. Just dont do drugs, dont buy drugs, dont sell drugs, or otherwise get mixed up in shady activity. Keep your nose clean and eyes in back of your heads. Dont go to known bad areas at night and/or during the day.

Always remember you are not living in the US and comparing crime in Lake Chapala to the crime in the US is laughable. I take everything I said about people in LC and Ajijic being "Bubble Pats". Even the worst of it is in your back yard.

Be safe and follow the above rules.

PS- I would love to buy some property down in LC at a bargain price. Keep me posted.


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## Detailman

conorkilleen said:


> You guys will be just fine. I live in Monterrey and I am just fine. Just dont do drugs, dont buy drugs, dont sell drugs, or otherwise get mixed up in shady activity. Keep your nose clean and eyes in back of your heads. Dont go to known bad areas at night and/or during the day.
> 
> Always remember you are not living in the US and comparing crime in Lake Chapala to the crime in the US is laughable. I take everything I said about people in LC and Ajijic being "Bubble Pats". Even the worst of it is in your back yard.
> 
> Be safe and follow the above rules.
> 
> PS- I would love to buy some property down in LC at a bargain price. Keep me posted.


AGREED! On your first paragraph I achieve 100%. 

Your comments are right on and you are in a position to make those comments because of living in Monterrey. So many problems could be solved by common sense but unfortunately it seems to be in short supply in today's society.


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## sparks

You could post these types of messages everyday if you followed the drug wars. I suggest you put it on the 'back burner' and keep it in perspective

Location: Lower Mainland, British Columbia


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## conorkilleen

sparks said:


> You could post these types of messages everyday if you followed the drug wars. I suggest you put it on the 'back burner' and keep it in perspective
> 
> Location: Lower Mainland, British Columbia


yup. This type of thing happens almost every week in Nuevo Leon and Monterrey (Sinaloa too just recently with all of the fighting in the mountains this week)

Whenever I see this type of stuff up here in the North, I just think to myself - "Would I rather see a van full of chopped up BAD guys or chopped up GOOD guys?"

Think.


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## FHBOY

I don't live there (yet) but I looked a a map. Saying this crime took place near Chapala/Ajijic, is like saying a murder in the Bronx was near Times Square. The town where they were found is on the other side of the mountain (so it appears) that you go over to get to Lakeside, a town not known for an expat population. The article said the perps planned to dump the bodies in Chapala/Ajijic, that never happened either.

When I get there, I will be concerned if and when this type of crime occurs closer to home, the executions and shootings, not dumping the bodies. Choosing where we have chosen to settle still seems safer than using the same criteria to measure danger in the Baltimore suburbs. We are only 5-8 miles, although it is another world, from where crime is committed regularly. 

I'll take those odds.


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## Grizzy

Over the past two weeks or so a number of young men from Chapala, Ajijic and San Juan Cosala have been kidnapped. I believe some from Jocotopec as well but not 100% sure. By all accounts these young men were not into drugs, weapons, and had not witnessed anything untoward. One of them is a friend of two friends of mine (young Mexican men) and one was the son of a well known local restaurant owner in San Antonio. These three and more local boys have been among the bodies identified from the two vehicles left in Ixtlahuacan.

The prevailing theory among people I give most credence to is that they were taken to boost the body count of the Zeta's, who were planning on dumping the bodies closer to Lakeside but were thwarted in that plan when a safe house was discovered in Jalisco on Tuesday. 

The belief is they were going to retaliate for the bodies left hanging in Nuevo Laredo a week or so ago and were just grabbing any young men to stage them as rival cartel members and do their macho thing.

It is very very sad to see the mothers and grandmothers of these young men, to see the banners hanging over the roads pleading for their return.

Up until this week I felt safe believing most of the victims were involved in the underworld. Not any more. 

The range of fear here is varied. Some expats seem to thrive on the drama, some like to bury their heads in the sand and most of us just want to know more, to separate the truth from the rumours and stories and to make some sense out of it.

I had a really hard day today knowing it was Mother's Day here and knowing these young men would never come home. 

It is frustrating to try to find the truth when journalists are threatened and killed, and when the rumour mill runs rampant. 

I am not leaving, but I suspect a few expats might use this event to reconsider their long term plans. There are already a huge number of residences on the market and few seem to be moving. I still maintain the personal belief that housing prices here have not dropped to reflect the shrinking market of buyers but many disagree with me.

Please say a prayer or light a candle for the innocents lost in this senseless war. I personally do not give a rats patootie if narcos want to blow each other up but when they deliberately involve innocents that is the lowest of the low.


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> I don't live there (yet) but I looked a a map. Saying this crime took place near Chapala/Ajijic, is like saying a murder in the Bronx was near Times Square. The town where they were found is on the other side of the mountain (so it appears) that you go over to get to Lakeside, a town not known for an expat population. The article said the perps planned to dump the bodies in Chapala/Ajijic, that never happened either.
> 
> When I get there, I will be concerned if and when this type of crime occurs closer to home, the executions and shootings, not dumping the bodies. Choosing where we have chosen to settle still seems safer than using the same criteria to measure danger in the Baltimore suburbs. We are only 5-8 miles, although it is another world, from where crime is committed regularly.
> 
> I'll take those odds.


FhBoy just to clarify, Ixtlahuacan is over the mountain but most of us consider it a part of the lakeside community. There are a growing number of expats living there and many of us visit the market and restaurants there. 

And the word from the captured Zeta woman is that they planned on dumping the bodies in Ajijic but when the location was discovered the kidnappers fled and some hostages were released. The plans changed. Of course no one really knows 100% what the whole truth is but I think it is fairly safe to accept this version as close to the truth. 

The bodies were refrigerated after death so they were not killed and beheaded lakeside. There is a battle over control of this area however. I have not seen much increased police presence and no army or military checkpoints. I personally believe they are badly needed here for the long term and am a bit perplexed as to why this hasn't happened yet. 

As I said in my previous post I am not leaving. I still feel as safe here as I did last month, but I do keep my wits about me, as my granny used to say. I still go out at night and drive alone to Guad and other places. And I am preparing myself for more of the ugliness to happen here. I hope I am wrong.


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## Detailman

sparks said:


> You could post these types of messages everyday if you followed the drug wars. I suggest you put it on the 'back burner' and keep it in perspective
> 
> Location: Lower Mainland, British Columbia


Sparks:

Could you please clarify your comment about "location." Are you currently in the Lower Mainland, BC?

And could you please expand on putting something that I read in the news on the "back burner" and keeping it in perspective. Not sure where you are coming from and I would not want to comment on something prior to understanding the comment. :confused2:


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## FHBOY

Maybe with my background as a New Yorker I cannot stir up enough alarm in myself to begin to reconsider my plans. Does it mean I have become enured to death and violence? No, not at all.

Grizzy tells the human side of a story like this and if I had known the players it too would have affected me, as it did her. Her feelings are hers and feelings are genuine and cannot be argued with. But I notice that she is not giving into fear, but taking those extra precautions one takes when something happens. Considering the frequency of event such as this, a hunker down, bunker mentality, flee the area approach does not seem warranted.

When she recounted that people unrelated to the drug cartels had been targeted, my reaction was that it was more a ransom - son of a restaurant owner - situation. Still, and this sounds terrible, it is not expats that are being targeted, it is rather locals (which does not make it less heinous). Again it sounds horrible, but I'd much more reconsider my move if there were a string of attacks on, murders of, kidnapping of expats in Ajijic.

Drawing again on the New York and Baltimore background, it is a matter of who you are, where you live and what steps you take that makes you safer. Notice I did not say safe, but safer - because be it there or here no one, except someone who lives in a closet, is totally safe.

Will there be a mass exodus of expats from Lakeside? Of course not, the news will be around for a while, some, like Grizzy, will be more affected than others, and life will go on. The odds, as I have said, are still infavor of moving/living there for us.


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## Krogl

@Grizzy, I live in Chapala and the scuttlebutt here amongst many that I know matches your scenario and belief. These were innocents and used as pawns for basically intimidation purposes. Sad, very sad. Up until now, as you stated, I wasn't concerned for my well being since I'm not involved in drugs and I didn't fear being the innocent bystander since that can happen anywhere.

I'm not scared however reality is setting in big time.


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## tepetapan

Detailman said:


> Sorry about that. If a person googles "bodies in van in lake chapala area" they will find numerous news sites reporting on it.
> 
> Fact is that Lakeside is still safer than many places in the USA. (Not so bad in Canada as most regular folks don't have guns due to our laws.)
> 
> BUT - about a week ago a Vancouver drug dealer was killed in Mexico and the police here in Vancouver were worried about retribution. In the last week there have been two or three drug hits. (They didn't miss so deaths were involved.)
> 
> I live here and it means virtually nothing to my safety.....
> 
> I like your comment about any "chicken littles." Right or wrong, others can benefit from exagerated fears.


" Right or wrong, others can benefit from exagerated fears." And how is that?
Exagerated fears are fears that....what?
How about a woman and her 3 daughters are kidnapped, 50% are dead. What about that as compared to a score of gangbangers dead?


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## Grizzy

There is random violent crime all over the world. In Vancouver, in my upscale suburb a number of drug gang leaders were gunned down in their million dollar driveways in the 3 or 4 years prior to me moving. Did it scare me? Not really.

Random violence is rampant in the US and is increasing in Canada. Mexicans have lived with the graphic violence of the cartels for a long time. Is it worse for them or for students of a school that has been shot up, or for a family whose loved ones were senselessly gunned down? I don't know. I think grief and shock are pretty universally hard.

I noticed last night, or in the middle of the night really as my insomnia kicked in, that four new houses were listed on the mls site yesterday. I doubt they were directly related to the recent events lakeside, however I do think that these events slowly convince people to relocated. 

For me, putting what happened and how I felt in writing was very cathartic. Nothing has really changed for my day to day life and for that I am thankful. But when I heard the bells for mass for the dead boys this morning it sounded more personal for me. I am lucky. I can live in a secure home and afford to be careful about where and when I leave. Most Mexicans don't have the luxury of that kind of safety.

Is it better or worse than other countries? I don't think it is worse on a risk level. But I think the scope of the horrors and the randomness does have a very negative effect on people. It was a lot easier when I really believed that those killed were involved in the cartel life. When innocents are taken and no ransom is asked for, when young men disappear for no reason other than being outside in daylight, the veneer of self righteousness wears off.

FHBOy this is still a beautiful, safe place to live. The people still smile and greet you warmly and life goes on. I guess we all just wait for the next shoe to drop now.


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## pappabee

This is a very sad commentary on what it going on in Mexico. I know for a fact that at least one of the dead had nothing to do with anything he was just kidnapped to add to the body count. (he was our gardener)

This 'body count' was built in order to show how "bad" the Zeta's were and to keep the other cartels at bay. They wanted to equalize the 25 body count of Zetas that were found a few weeks ago. 

Yes it is sad and even sadder when you know someone involved. But this is an innocent death just the same as it would be NOB. In every war innocents are hurt and killed. The sadness is still there and the hurt that you can do little to stop it or protect yourself other than take the normal precautions. 

If you want to live your life looking over your shoulder you could do so in most NOB cities. I for one choose to not be overly concerned with the 'over the shoulder' mode and just live my life as best I can. 

I will do whatever I can to help the widow and her children and I will morn the loss of a smiley face three times a week.


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## conorkilleen

If you have eyes in the back of your head then you don't need to look over your shoulder. Through some training in a "past life", I have leaned to have a keen sense, even behind me. Literally, looking over your shoulder constantly gives the potential perp a sense that you are insecure about your surroundings and going to make mistakes when confronted with violence.


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## Detailman

conorkilleen said:


> If you have eyes in the back of your head then you don't need to look over your shoulder. Through some training in a "past life", I have leaned to have a keen sense, even behind me. Literally, looking over your shoulder constantly gives the potential perp a sense that you are insecure about your surroundings and going to make mistakes when confronted with violence.


I think you and I have experienced the same training in the past.

I always go by that inner sense and tell my wife to do so.

I can only remember one time when I ignored it. I had a strong inner feeling about the person behind me in a line up (just bad vibes although I had not looked at him but knew I should due to the circumstances).. Stupid mistake.  We were in a line up in the bank. I went to one teller he went to the other teller "and robbed the bank" as I stood at the next teller. 

Told myself: Never again ignore those innner feelings. Those type of feelings have saved many a life of both men and woman. 

The "experts" will tell you to go by those feelings.


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## conorkilleen

knowing what not to do is almost more valuable than knowing what to do.


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## Detailman

tepetapan said:


> " Right or wrong, others can benefit from exagerated fears." And how is that?
> Exagerated fears are fears that....what?
> How about a woman and her 3 daughters are kidnapped, 50% are dead. What about that as compared to a score of gangbangers dead?


That is a general comment that should not be taken out of context.

Exaggerated fears can take many forms and can have a solid basis for them or very little basis at all.

Let's say the state is building a high voltage power line through a residential neighbourhood. People start to circulate stories about how everyone is going to get cancer from the new transmission lines (or whatever). Might there be a basis for this fear? Yes! Can it be over-exaggerated? Yes! If dozens of people immediately put their houses up for panic sales it is obvious that the house prices are going to drop drastically. People who can live with the fear of the consequences of the high transmission line might benefit by being able to buy a house for less than true market value due to the exaggerated fears that have spread through the local residents.

Again, the fears can be completely unfounded, solidly based or halfway in between. But if the fears are overly exaggerated .......

I made the comment as a general comment to a phrase that someone else used and was not applying it to specific circumstances. Ignore the comment or apply it in the general sense that was intended but please don't go off on a tangent and apply more meaning than was intended, which is where you appear to be going by your next two sentences. I do not want to be a "debater over words."


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## Retired-Veteran

*I'm sad for the loss of the mothers of Mexico*

I haven't been on for some time as I have been building my car carrier for when I move down to LC. I have kept an eye on the crime in Mexico and at LC and it is unfortunately what this world has turned into. 

I live (right now) next to some Bloods and NOW!, Latin Kings gang members. I tired, so long ago of the drugs and the people that use and "Think" there is no Human Factor (Human Cost-Price) in "Smoking a little or snorting a little".

We are seeing the human factor of the drug use and trade right now in the areas of LC. 

I still am flying down in another 39 days to stay for five weeks. AND I still am moving lake side and have now set in stone that I leave on November 24th of 2012. 

I agree that some people will leave the lake from this and the more crime to come, That is Very Sad. 

I'll get on my soap box for a moment and say this........... It is my opinion; 
A heck of a lot of this crime and killing "Is" brought on by America and their hunger for dope. AND the American government supplying the drug cartel with automatic weapons! That was/is just messed up! 

I watch on TV most days the arguments between the courts and the American Government playing "Cover my A$$" on who is at fault in giving the weapons to the drug cartels. (Issa to Holder: Waiting for "Fast and Furious" docs like waiting for Godot - Political Hotsheet - CBS News ) All the while this is going on the People of Mexico are paying for the supposed "Investigation" by America of the War on Drugs!

The American Government is among one of the worse criminals, next to the Drug Cartels. ( no offence intended to anyone but if a person disagrees please read link above) What on Earth were they thinking? I just will never understand the way this government thinks.


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## FHBOY

*"war" on drugs*

RetVet: I cannot point to one specific incident in the USA's War on Drug and say that "it" was the most egregious. The whole concept of that action was flawed from the beginning, whenever that was and like other actions taken by the USA on various real and titled wars, executed as badly as conceived, like the idea of giving convicted arsonists traceable matches, and waiting to see what happened.

The USA war on drugs has been ongoing for how many years for how much money and what has been accomplished by it? You live with it every day...can you tell us what it has accomplished, cause I sure can't.

The argument of legalizing marijuana would be a band aid on the problem also. I believe that the consumption and distribution of marijuana should be legalized, regulated and controlled as we control the drug alcohol. 

But that would not prevent the greater problem and unless the USA begins to look at drugs other than grass and meth [much of which is home grown and only now becoming an "import" product] and begin to treat it as the addiction and disease that it is until then all the enforcement, all the money all the lives lost will not change a thing.

What this tragedy shows, to me, is the Mexican equivalent of Chicago during Prohibition (and other places) and these unfortunate innocents to a "Valentines Day Massacre" south of the border. Am I saying that USA consumption for illegal drugs is the sole reason for this? No, but we cannot overlook it as a major contributing factor.

What the USA needs is not a war on drugs, but the treatment of drug addicts, a control on the consumer, the demand generator and, unfortunately, I have no idea how to do that. And until someone with more guts and brains than me comes up with this...your neighborhood, this cartel violence will continue. All the rest of us can hope that it stays away from us, a good thing to pray for, though I do not think prayer is the answer here.


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## Retired-Veteran

FHBoy,
I agree that the War on drugs is not worth the paper that the law is wrote on. It has accomplish nothing But... having men and women in our prisons for LIFE for just having a gram of weed. (Look into the three strikes and your out law) We have more people in prison that the rest of the world combined. (I don't know if that's a fact but you get my jest) . Maybe if America legalized pot and regulated and taxed it that would ease up 'some' of the crime but not all. Heck to tax pot would pay off this countries debt very fast.

But far better in my opinion would be that Americans "Grow the f up and stop using drugs."

Americans like there chemical drugs too and that is one of the reasons why I have to carry Mace and/or a gun just to check my mail at the front gate. I turned in the Bloods for cooking Meth three doors down. In short the local police told me to arm myself.

FHBoy, You had wrote " Am I saying that USA consumption for illegal drugs is the sole reason for this? No, but we cannot overlook it as a major contributing factor." 

That is exactly what I was trying to get across (I hope I was able to do that in my last post if not I'm making that clear now.)

All the dang on wars the U.S. is in right now, and all the money we spend on war totals to 3 Billion A DAY! A day every day on war......... OMG!!!

If America took one months worth of money and spent it to rid Mexico of the cartels they would be history. There is very little being done in America to help the drug addicts or even to help educate the criminals in prison. They come out of our prison system better criminals.

It's more profitable for America to blow the bejesus out of other contries than to help addicts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is pretty deep and perhaps to much so for this forum but I'll try. Forgive me if this is to controversial I have been thinking real hard for the past hour thinking if I should post this statement.
There was an offer back in 2009 made by Jax Desmond...
I don't say or write this flippantly nor with disrespect to anyone. The last thing I want to do is start a moral argument on this board but I have to wonder about what I've known of an what I had read in the past. I'm sure some of you ex-military are aware of this, if so forgive me. 

But it was offered back in 2009, by a now former Backwater member, to rid Mexico of the Zetas for the sum of 100 million dollars. Backwater is the firm that President Bush II used to help fight in the gulf war 2 to do the dirty work that Bush did not want the American military to do AND to keep the body count lower for the press. 

A lot of this is controversial in all angles and respect, but what I wonder is why the Mexican government does not look a little close at this still standing offer?

Backwater is made up of the most merciless organized hired military personnel in this world (IMHO) Blackwater USA | Blackwater is back. The solders that left to go with Jax come from Backwater, American S.F., D.F., N.S. and the Israeli Military....

I feel if they were given the freedom from the government that the drug cartels would be history in a very short time. Jax Desmond feels that he could rid Mexico of the Zetas in 120 days by using "every modern weapon available to him!"

As an American I'm almost ashamed to say that one of the very best things that America produces and is able to do is wage war and kill efficiently and within a budget.

*Snip*
BLACKWATER (Jax Desmond) has offered its services many times to Calderon! They put on the table a plan to get rid of the Zetas and ANY other violent groups in Mexico within 120 days not counting staging time (Getting the necessary equipment in place...) Calderon has declined to say yes to the offer! Their price for doing this is $100 Million +

A different story but it explains pretty good.
Watch Out Los Zetas Jax Desmond Worldwide Offers Support To Mexico In Battling Deadly Drug Cartel
Watch Out Los Zetas Jax Desmond Worldwide Offers Support To Mexico In Battling Deadly Drug Cartel | Reuters


Mexico: Exclusive–Los Zetas Responds to Jax Desmond, and Puts a Hit Out on the Company
Mexico: Exclusive–Los Zetas Responds to Jax Desmond, and Puts a Hit Out on the Company | Feral Jundi

I have to end by saying that Jax Desmond is still alive and well.


Now if America sent their military to get the cartels they would be gone in a matter of weeks....


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## Souper

Retired-Veteran said:


> FHBoy,
> There is very little being done in America to help the drug addicts or even to help educate the criminals in prison. They come out of our prison system better criminals.
> 
> It's more profitable for America to blow the bejesus out of other countries than to help addicts.


I can't speak for every state but I've worked with inmates in CA, there are educational programs on the inside and residential treatment centers to help inmates transition to legal life on the outside. 
Drug addiction is powerful, some stay clean, many don't. 
I don't blame any government for people's personal drug addictions or their personal choice of a life of crime. Most inmates I see also take personal responsibility for their incarceration.
Please give me the details on "men and women in our prisons for LIFE for just having a gram of weed". I've heard that more than once, but I've never seen an inmate even in short term county for small marijuana possession. What state is this that locks up for life.
USA has people who make a choice to buy drugs, Mexico has people who make a choice to sell drugs.


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## FHBOY

Retired-Veteran said:


> FHBoy,
> I agree that the War on drugs is not worth the paper that itis written on...Now if America sent their military to get the cartels they would be gone in a matter of weeks....


RetVet: Academi —previously known as Xe Services LLC, previously known as Blackwater USA is not an answer. It is an answer to make it's owners and previous owners richer, but to solve the problem, not so much. We have learned, sadly over the last ten years, that force alone cannot make change in an environment that does not want it or can support it. Even if Academi was illegally unleashed in Mexico, like Pappy Bush said about Baghdad, "Once you invade it, you own it", the USA would then have to "own" Mexico. There is a lot more to this argument...but this is not the Forum for it...the main thing is, it would not solve the problem and contrarily create many, many more.

No, the eradication of the the drug cartels in Mexico is a Mexican problem that affects the USA, but what is done there has to be done by them. Colombia is dealing with it's cartels, we do not hear about too much violence there (which does not mean it doesn't happen) because the Colombians had enough.

The USA, in the form of its military or in the form of its mercenary forces, cannot police the world. We went broke trying to do just that. What we can do with the billions from the failed war on drugs, it to re-channel it into social programs such as job creation for economic opportunity, education, universal health care and to make living healthy in the USA an easier and more attractive goal than the drug world.

This is a respectful argument that I am proud to be part of, and we seem to have a difference of opinion but have found some common ground from which to express them which is very healthy, thank you.


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## Grizzy

Souper said:


> I can't speak for every state but I've worked with inmates in CA, there are educational programs on the inside and residential treatment centers to help inmates transition to legal life on the outside.
> Drug addiction is powerful, some stay clean, many don't.
> I don't blame any government for people's personal drug addictions or their personal choice of a life of crime. Most inmates I see also take personal responsibility for their incarceration.
> Please give me the details on "men and women in our prisons for LIFE for just having a gram of weed". I've heard that more than once, but I've never seen an inmate even in short term county for small marijuana possession. What state is this that locks up for life.
> USA has people who make a choice to buy drugs, Mexico has people who make a choice to sell drugs.


Souper I am guessing that there is a huge difference in prison programs state by state. Ca may have rehab programs but I doubt Arizona, to name just one, has any for convicted drug offenders. Prisons seem to be a business like any other NoB from what I have seen and read. There to be run privately for profit to make their owners more money. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## ReefHound

Souper said:


> Please give me the details on "men and women in our prisons for LIFE for just having a gram of weed". I've heard that more than once, but I've never seen an inmate even in short term county for small marijuana possession. What state is this that locks up for life.
> USA has people who make a choice to buy drugs, Mexico has people who make a choice to sell drugs.


Nobody gets life for mere possession of drugs. Maybe what some are thinking of is the three strikes and yer out policy that California and some other states have. That third strike in itself may often be relatively benign and something that would ordinarily get you a few months to a few years. And a lot of times the violation that goes on record is a reduced charge from a plea bargain on a much more serious charge.


----------



## FHBOY

This mornings paper carried a story about a town in New Mexico that regularly accepts cartel bribe money to smuggle people and drugs. There were arrests made in that case. Now, this is an effective way to deal with the drugs on this side of the border - can we police our own citizens to end this type of behaviors? Just a thought.

Could it be if you took the "three strikers" out of prison, if the strikes included low level marijuana busts, then law enforcement could concentrate on suppliers of hard drugs up the supply train, and the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded with relatively minor felons? Why do we continue to chase marijuana usage busts?

But since many prisons are for-profit these days, that won't happen, correct?

You see, the USA system is broken and too many special interests, too many extreme positions keeps it that way. A strong new program based on good solid methodology and with dynamic leadership (think The Untouchables) would probably be more effective.


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## vantexan

Heard on the news today several dozen dismembered bodies in garbage bags were tossed along a highway near Monterrey. There are two scenarios I do think worth considering. One is if the U.S. gov't ever greatly increases it's pressure on the cartels there might be reprisals on U.S. citizens in Mexico as well as attacks in border cities. Hasn't happened yet, might never, but it's possible. The other very possible scenario is you have hundreds if not thousands of armed thugs roaming around in these cartels. You never know when one might see a relatively wealthy American and decide to "have a little fun" or worse. Might have never happened, might never. But it's possible. For those reasons alone I think it's worth staying out of regions with alot of cartel activity. Or at least if you live in places like Monterrey be careful about where you go and when. I'm not saying be paranoid, just aware.


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## pappabee

vantexan said:


> Heard on the news today several dozen dismembered bodies in garbage bags were tossed along a highway near Monterrey. There are two scenarios I do think worth considering. One is if the U.S. gov't ever greatly increases it's pressure on the cartels there might be reprisals on U.S. citizens in Mexico as well as attacks in border cities. Hasn't happened yet, might never, but it's possible. The other very possible scenario is you have hundreds if not thousands of armed thugs roaming around in these cartels. You never know when one might see a relatively wealthy American and decide to "have a little fun" or worse. Might have never happened, might never. But it's possible. For those reasons alone I think it's worth staying out of regions with alot of cartel activity. Or at least if you live in places like Monterrey be careful about where you go and when. I'm not saying be paranoid, just aware.


Both of your scenarios are possible but not probable. First and foremost the cartels don't want a very angry US government going after them. The US isn't going to increase pressure on the cartels unless they are forced to do so. Why should they? What the US seems to be doing is putting on just enough pressure so that the Mexican Government is contented (not happy but content). And the cartels don’t have to worry about the extra power of the US going after them. We learned this lesson during the "Cold War". Two steps forward and 1 1/2 back. Works great.

Secondly the cartels don't want free running members doing what they feel like. The heads of the cartels have to exert enough control to be sure everyone is following their orders. It appears that free lance cartel members don't seem to last very long. A lesion that the cartels took from the Mafia in the 20's and 30's.

I agree though that it is better to be safe than sorry. Don't set up a locksmith shop in any border town. Don't drive your new Cady SUV around Guad or Monterey. And for sure don't try to purchase a taco with a $1000 bill.


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## Canuk aboad

*Nervous daughter*



Detailman said:


> I think you and I have experienced the same training in the past.
> 
> I always go by that inner sense and tell my wife to do so.
> 
> I can only remember one time when I ignored it. I had a strong inner feeling about the person behind me in a line up (just bad vibes although I had not looked at him but knew I should due to the circumstances).. Stupid mistake.  We were in a line up in the bank. I went to one teller he went to the other teller "and robbed the bank" as I stood at the next teller.
> 
> Told myself: Never again ignore those innner feelings. Those type of feelings have saved many a life of both men and woman.
> 
> The "experts" will tell you to go by those feelings.


Hi everyone, I'm new here and hope I'm posting this correctly.....My parents have just purchased a home in Ajijic, in a gated community(not built yet). Just after their first payment went through, I read about these horrible crimes. I am losing sleep over this. Is it worth moving over there? I know crime happens everywhere, but the evil violence that these drug cartels inflict on innocent people is sickening. Please, can you give me some honest opinions on what is happening over there?


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## mickisue1

Canuk aboad said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new here and hope I'm posting this correctly.....My parents have just purchased a home in Ajijic, in a gated community(not built yet). Just after their first payment went through, I read about these horrible crimes. I am losing sleep over this. Is it worth moving over there? I know crime happens everywhere, but the evil violence that these drug cartels inflict on innocent people is sickening. Please, can you give me some honest opinions on what is happening over there?


Opinions are just that: opinions.

But this may put it in context for you.

I live in a suburb of the Twin Cities, in Minnesota.

Last month, a daycare provider and her two elderly parents were killed, execution style, in another suburb of my hometown.

The reason? The killer had raped a 15 year old girl, his niece, who helped out with the kids, and he'd gone there to kill her so she couldn't testify against him.

I read this in this morning's paper. It sickened me, on all levels, as I'm sure the killings over a drug war in MX are sickening you.

But the point is that there is the potential for danger and violence everywhere. It has always been thus. The answer is not to barricade oneself against that potential, but to keep one's eyes open, take reasonable precautions, and then to live one's life.

Your parents have chosen to live their lives in one of the most beautiful places on this earth. Be happy for them. Unless they are losing their faculties, they know that there is a potential for violence in the location they've chosen, and they have also chosen to deal with it.


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## FHBOY

Canuk aboad said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new here and hope I'm posting this correctly.....My parents have just purchased a home in Ajijic, in a gated community(not built yet). Just after their first payment went through, I read about these horrible crimes. I am losing sleep over this. Is it worth moving over there? I know crime happens everywhere, but the evil violence that these drug cartels inflict on innocent people is sickening. Please, can you give me some honest opinions on what is happening over there?


I hope to meet your parents when we move there in February. I am sure they did their due diligence and you need to trust their judgement. Ajijic/Chapala and Jalisco in general seems to me to be a very safe place. And they are in a gated community, which puts them even further inside the "bubble". As their kid you have every right to be concerned, but I would feel even more concerned if they moved to certain cities in Canada or the USA. There were only 7 or 9 serious crimes that made news in the last year in the Lakeside area. Compare that with the daily police blotter in your city.

I know that once you visit them there, see how they live and enjoy life, your apprehension will lessen.

PS: I'd be more concerned about the "not built yet" part than the cartels.


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## elchante

I have lived in the Lake Chapala area for four years now, full-time. That by no means makes me a long-time resident. However, I must tell you that in the past two weeks things have changed here. 

When narcos were killing narcos, I don't think anyone much cared....sad as that statement is, particularly to this old liberal. 

However, in the past two weeks that has all changed. Innocent young people are being kidnapped and murdered. 

Canuk Aboad, your parents will likely be safe down here. As FHBoy says, they are probably in "more danger" from the "not yet built" than from the cartels. Gringos, at this point, remain pretty much sacrosanct. 

But you do need to disregard what folks who visited here "a few months ago" are telling you. Times have changed very rapidly. And I absolutely cannot tell you that things won't change for the better that rapidly either. 

I am not an innocent when it comes to bad places to live. I lived in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans, for example, for many years. But RIGHT NOW I am scared for my Mexican friends.

You and your folks really need to be aware of what's going on down here. I still love it here and have no plans to move, but bad things are happening.


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## FHBOY

elchante said:


> I have lived in the Lake Chapala area for four years now, ...You and your folks really need to be aware of what's going on down here. I still love it here and have no plans to move, but bad things are happening.


No dispute from anyone not living there can or should be made of your opinion/observation. 

Can you say that the feelings you have are universal all along the carraterra from Chapala to Jocotepec, or more centered in the Jocotepec and Chapala communities which have smaller number of expats in them?

I believe that you were saying the tragedy that you see unfolding is still within the Mexican community. Are you saying that you see it probable or possible for these actions to extend outside of that community? Is anyone?

Are you saying that the plaza in Ajijic, the restaurants in San Antonio and Chapala are emptying out, that you can see the population changing their day-to-day behaviors?

I am not looking for a silver lining where there might not be one.


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## HolyMole

pappabee said:


> Both of your scenarios are possible but not probable. First and foremost the cartels don't want a very angry US government going after them. The US isn't going to increase pressure on the cartels unless they are forced to do so. Why should they? What the US seems to be doing is putting on just enough pressure so that the Mexican Government is contented (not happy but content). And the cartels don’t have to worry about the extra power of the US going after them. We learned this lesson during the "Cold War". Two steps forward and 1 1/2 back. Works great.
> 
> Secondly the cartels don't want free running members doing what they feel like. The heads of the cartels have to exert enough control to be sure everyone is following their orders. It appears that free lance cartel members don't seem to last very long. A lesion that the cartels took from the Mafia in the 20's and 30's.
> 
> I agree though that it is better to be safe than sorry. Don't set up a locksmith shop in any border town. Don't drive your new Cady SUV around Guad or Monterey. And for sure don't try to purchase a taco with a $1000 bill.


Other than legalizing all drug use, which certainly won't happen in my lifetime, I have no suggestions that might help stop the tidal wave of violence engulfing all parts of Mexico. 
But with all due respect, do you really think that people who can murder and dismember 15, 25 or 40 victims at a time, and dump them in plain view, give a rat's ass about "a very angry US government going after them"? One poster's suggestion to send the US military into Mexico - shades of John Wayne and Audie Murphy - is sheer lunacy. Apparently that poster has learned absolutely nothing from history. If the US military is so all-powerful, send them into any one of hundreds of US cities riddled with drug-related crime.
Finally, I understand your light-hearted attempt to calm the fears of anyone contemplating moving to Mexico, but I doubt that any of the several dozen locals snatched from Lakeside streets over the past few weeks had set up a locksmith shop in any border town, driven their new Caddy SUV around Guad or Monterrey, or tried to purchase a taco with a $1000 bill. There were reportedly no ransom demands, and, so far, it looks like few, if any, had ties to any criminal organizations. So much for the argument that "it's only "narco-traffickers killing each other".


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## elchante

FHBoy: Yes, i see the fear from Chapala to Jocotepec....and probably around to the south shore. But I have not been over there. 

I have friends in all the pueblos from Joco to Chapala Haciendas or Brisas, and we're all scared. Not so much for ourselves, as I said, but for our Mexican friends, housekeepers, and gardeners.

And, yes, I'm saying that the restaurants and plazas are emptying out after dark. Maybe without cause, but it's happening. Last Saturday, for the first time since I've lived here, there was no music from the malecon or from the plaza in Jocotepec. However, there WAS music on Sunday. 

I am only saying that last Saturday I was scared to drive from Joco to Chapala Haciendas. And I, a single woman, drove down to Joco from northeastern Arizona without any fear four years ago. I don't think I'm a sissy or an alarmist. But, as I said, bad things are happening here right now.


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## tepetapan

HolyMole;786087 said:


> Sorry, but don´t try dragging all of Mexico into the tidal wave. It flat out is not true today as it was not true last year. Get a grip, sit down and take a few deep breaths.


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## pappabee

HolyMole said:


> Other than legalizing all drug use, which certainly won't happen in my lifetime, I have no suggestions that might help stop the tidal wave of violence engulfing all parts of Mexico.
> But with all due respect, do you really think that people who can murder and dismember 15, 25 or 40 victims at a time, and dump them in plain view, give a rat's ass about "a very angry US government going after them"? One poster's suggestion to send the US military into Mexico - shades of John Wayne and Audie Murphy - is sheer lunacy. Apparently that poster has learned absolutely nothing from history. If the US military is so all-powerful, send them into any one of hundreds of US cities riddled with drug-related crime.
> Finally, I understand your light-hearted attempt to calm the fears of anyone contemplating moving to Mexico, but I doubt that any of the several dozen locals snatched from Lakeside streets over the past few weeks had set up a locksmith shop in any border town, driven their new Caddy SUV around Guad or Monterrey, or tried to purchase a taco with a $1000 bill. There were reportedly no ransom demands, and, so far, it looks like few, if any, had ties to any criminal organizations. So much for the argument that "it's only "narco-traffickers killing each other".


I never said anything about "narcos killing narcos". It's people killing people. As far as 'an angry US' goes right now we live in a country where there is a very delicate balance. The Government and the Narcos are at war. The government takes one step and the narcos take another. In any battlefield there are casualties. In this battlefield the casualties happen to be mangled people. Within the past few weeks those people happen to be just normal citizens with little or no ties directly to the government or to the narcos. 

No the expat community haven't been attacked much yet but when my housekeeper is afraid to wait on the corner for the bus to take her home, that effects me. 

I personally think that what is happening now is just like Stalin and WW2. Get as much territory prior to the armistice as possible. The two powerful narcos gangs are trying to get as much as they can before the new government takes office because once that happens the playing field will change. I also feel that this "body count" will stop very soon and we'll go back to the narcos killing narcos. 

And as far as being "light-hearted" I seem to remember a very old song about "give a little whistle". Let's all do a little whistling and maybe this too will pass.:ranger:


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> PS: I'd be more concerned about the "not built yet" part than the cartels.



Me also. Expats who exercise reasonable precautions are, IMHO safer in their gated communities than in most places north or south of the Mx border. My friends and family freaked out when I told them I was moving to Mexico and driving down alone. They freak whenever one of the major news chains does one of their sensational stories about bodies being found. I have started sending them headlines from local stories and freaking out about how unsafe it is for them to live there and how can they let their kids go to school when students are found with guns, etc etc. 
They are slowly getting the point.

One of the best ways for you to calm your fears is to come down here and visit and see how life really is lakeside. Then your biggest fear would be having to go back home again


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> No dispute from anyone not living there can or should be made of your opinion/observation.
> 
> Can you say that the feelings you have are universal all along the carraterra from Chapala to Jocotepec, or more centered in the Jocotepec and Chapala communities which have smaller number of expats in them?
> 
> I believe that you were saying the tragedy that you see unfolding is still within the Mexican community. Are you saying that you see it probable or possible for these actions to extend outside of that community? Is anyone?
> 
> Are you saying that the plaza in Ajijic, the restaurants in San Antonio and Chapala are emptying out, that you can see the population changing their day-to-day behaviors?
> 
> I am not looking for a silver lining where there might not be one.



I also will not dispute anyone's fears or concerns right now either Lakeside or in any part of Mexico experiencing cartel violence. And many many parts are not as most of us know.

My experience, which is limited to mostly Ajijic, is that Mexican youth are nervous, some are looking for somewhere else to relocated, those with businesses are closing the front gate during the day and parents are keeping much closer tabs on their children.

On Saturday night I went to three places. The first was about half as full as a normal Sat night. My experience is that it is usually half expat half Mexican. A lot of Mexicans were there but few expats. The second place is more an expat hang out and it was empty. One couple and our group of 6. Sad as it used to be full on Sat night. They had the door closed. The third was a well known bar that caters to Tapatios on weekends and it was as full as it usually is.

My other observation is that the expat people I know who didn't go out after dark still don't, and they like to tell me that no one goes out at night here. Not true. I still go out at night and I see the taco stands, the street cookers, the kids and adults sitting on the stoops, I still hear the music. I think more expats are not going out at night from what I hear talking to them in passing.

I don't feel any more afraid than I did. I am sad that innocents were murdered. I am frustrated by external political forces who are not dealing with their own drug and weapons crises and I am angry that a beautiful people and country are living this horror. 

I have travelled all over the world and will keep going out, at night if I have the urge to dance or eat dinner out or visit friends. I will go to the plaza and watch the families and celebrate the fiestas. I was always alert but now am extra vigilant about people around me. I understand other people's fears but my own philosophy is that if the actions of deranged criminals keeps me afraid and indoors then they have power over me that I gave them. I accept the risks and I take ownership of my life. I wish my Mexican friends and neighbours had that power as well. I am lucky to be an expat in this situation as we are not, yet, of the target group. 
And I am not a violent person but when I saw the youtube video of one of the cartel members who kidnapped 10 or so of the victims and was apprehended using a bank card of one, I was quite happy to see he had a black eye and cut lip. No doubt from a Police officer helping him gently into the back of the truck :boxing:


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## mickisue1

Maybe I have an unusual point of view. I had to drive home from VA after 9/11, and I was in DC two days before it happened.

Then, I was on a plane again the following Tuesday, and thought nothing of it.

But remember that nonsense about "if we stop shopping, the terrorists will have won?"

Well, if we are afraid to go places we normally go, and we keep ourselves and our families from being in the places we love because of random violence, THEN the terrorists will have won.

Take precautions? Of course. Be more careful when the situation warrants it? Of course.

But to give in to fear of the unknown, and truly, it's the unknown that this is, and it's the fear that the cartels are cultivating, is to die a little. You allow them to kill a bit of you, without even touching you.

Violence is a fact of life. 20000 years ago, you could get eaten by a saber toothed tiger. 

Feel that sickness at your gut when you are scared or angry? That's part of the biological feedback loop that allowed enough of our ancestors to survive those saber toothed tigers to allow us to be talking on the internet to each other. 

Danger exists. More people in the US get killed by someone they know, than not. More women and girls get raped by someone they know, than not. 

Keep yourself as safe as you can, all while living your life. Talk to your kids about being safe, and let them live their lives, so far as you can while also keeping them safe.


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## gijose

mickisue1 said:


> Maybe I have an unusual point of view. I had to drive home from VA after 9/11, and I was in DC two days before it happened.
> 
> Then, I was on a plane again the following Tuesday, and thought nothing of it.
> 
> But remember that nonsense about "if we stop shopping, the terrorists will have won?"
> 
> Well, if we are afraid to go places we normally go, and we keep ourselves and our families from being in the places we love because of random violence, THEN the terrorists will have won.
> 
> Take precautions? Of course. Be more careful when the situation warrants it? Of course.
> 
> But to give in to fear of the unknown, and truly, it's the unknown that this is, and it's the fear that the cartels are cultivating, is to die a little. You allow them to kill a bit of you, without even touching you.
> 
> Violence is a fact of life. 20000 years ago, you could get eaten by a saber toothed tiger.
> 
> Feel that sickness at your gut when you are scared or angry? That's part of the biological feedback loop that allowed enough of our ancestors to survive those saber toothed tigers to allow us to be talking on the internet to each other.
> 
> Danger exists. More people in the US get killed by someone they know, than not. More women and girls get raped by someone they know, than not.
> 
> Keep yourself as safe as you can, all while living your life. Talk to your kids about being safe, and let them live their lives, so far as you can while also keeping them safe.


I am an expat with family from mexico. My aunt's business in laredo had to be shut down because of miitary-like shootouts and constant extortion demands. A life's work pretty much destroyed. 

Most murders in the US take place in ethnic neighborhoods, especially black. It's pretty easy if you're not a local to avoid lot of the violence just by knowing if you see a mostly black neighborhood, get out. A local knows which black neighborhoods he can safely travel through, but for a foreigner that advice is simple and will suffice.

So what advice is there for someone going to mexico? It's not quite as simple. Stay out of certain areas, fine, but those areas change dynamically as government forces and cartel forces rearrange their troops like military generals.

OK I'm sorry you can't' compare a kidnapping with cutting off ears and fingers to a domestic dispute between divorced parents resulting in a 'kidnapping' of their own child because it violated custody hours. OK I'm sorry you can't compare a woman being date-raped because there was too much alcohol, with a guy she liked to being kidnapped and gangraped by 5 gangmembers. 

The violence in mexico is worse, period. And to complain about 'gun owners' in the US. Most US gun enthusiasts are hicks who just like shooting guns for hunting, they are not a threat to anyone, and taking their guns away will not make anyone safer. If anything it will make them bitter and become violent. And they will take it out on mexicans living in the US, like me. So give up your fantasies about taking guns from good people because bad people in a foreign country are using them.


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## pappabee

gijose said:


> I am an expat with family from mexico. My aunt's business in laredo had to be shut down because of miitary-like shootouts and constant extortion demands. A life's work pretty much destroyed.
> 
> Most murders in the US take place in ethnic neighborhoods, especially black. It's pretty easy if you're not a local to avoid lot of the violence just by knowing if you see a mostly black neighborhood, get out. A local knows which black neighborhoods he can safely travel through, but for a foreigner that advice is simple and will suffice.
> 
> So what advice is there for someone going to mexico? It's not quite as simple. Stay out of certain areas, fine, but those areas change dynamically as government forces and cartel forces rearrange their troops like military generals.
> 
> OK I'm sorry you can't' compare a kidnapping with cutting off ears and fingers to a domestic dispute between divorced parents resulting in a 'kidnapping' of their own child because it violated custody hours. OK I'm sorry you can't compare a woman being date-raped because there was too much alcohol, with a guy she liked to being kidnapped and gangraped by 5 gangmembers.
> 
> The violence in mexico is worse, period. And to complain about 'gun owners' in the US. Most US gun enthusiasts are hicks who just like shooting guns for hunting, they are not a threat to anyone, and taking their guns away will not make anyone safer. If anything it will make them bitter and become violent. And they will take it out on mexicans living in the US, like me. So give up your fantasies about taking guns from good people because bad people in a foreign country are using them.


Watch out folks the NRA is talking!!!!!!!!!!!

OK OK, so you have your right to your opinions. But let's get a few facts in order. Your Aunt's business had to be shut down. Who shut it down? Why? What kind of business was it? Rather than making a random statement, please supply a few facts to prove your point.

"Most murders in the US take place in ethnic neighborhoods, especially black." First and foremost that is a crock. Most murders in the US take place in POOR neighborhoods. True that many black neighborhoods are poor but there are a large number of white poor places also. Now if you're taking about expat safety please remember that in 20010 there were only 111 NOB's killed in all of Mexico (figure from the US Department of State). Yes there have been between 47K and 50K non-NOB's since Calderon's crackdown on narcos. Not all of them have been directly involved in the drug trade. Some were trying to get into the US, some were trying to get into Mexico (from the South), some were people that the gangs were trying to get to carry drugs from them and some were just innocent bystanders. 

I'd like you to tell the Police Chefs of any major US city that the gun owners in their town are "hicks". What a joke. Take away my guns and I'll become bitter and kill someone. 

JUST TOO MUCH TO TAKE. 

Please get your facts together and be sure what you post is posted as opinion and not porported to be fact.


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## AlanMexicali

Laredo, Tx. USA or Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, Mx.


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## kazslo

I've finally caught the urge to chime in....

I knew, just based on the title, that this would be a 4+ page thread. 5 posts maximum about the actual event, and the rest touting the following:

Violence in Mexico can be compared to major US cities.
This was just a one-time event
In many parts of Mexico this is the norm.
Watch over your shoulder, be aware of surroundings.
The war on drugs will/will not affect you if you don't involve yourself.

*====OPINION ALERT - NONE OF BELOW IS FACT/BASED ON FACT=====*

Violence here can be compared to anywhere in the world, but really, I don't care about anywhere, because I live in Xalapa, so I care about violence in and around Xalapa. Just like Chapala residents should be concerned about violence in-and-around Chapala towards their residents. Key word is violence on residents, and not discovery/dumping of bodies. Are you sure your gardener/housekeeper/laborer wasn't involved in something bad to make some extra money for his/her family...or do you just believe that he/she wasn't because they were "good people"? Even the guy who worked as a lookout for a few extra pesos is putting his life on the line.

Also, I disagree with the "look over your shoulder" advice. Having eyes in the back of your head will save you from a random drug-addict holdup, not from a cartel planned kidnapping/murder. If someone plans to capture you, with proper planning, they will. Which leads to my next point - don't be a good person to capture. Don't flaunt wealth, don't be involved with bad people, and realize a certain risk of doing business here. I consider the cartel to be more of a mafia, involved in all things bad (like extortions), vs just trafficking drugs.

Shying away in your house isn't a solution. Avoiding areas that are dangerous is a solution to avoiding drug-INDUCED violence, but not cartel-violence. If you are afraid of random 'to make a statement' violence, where do you draw the line? Using that logic someone could come into your home and shoot you as you read this.

I think people only feel more comfortable in their originating countries because its what they've know for the longest period of time, so certain events (like daily murders in bad neighborhoods) don't faze them. Give it more time, and news of people being killed by cartels will be the norm. I know that might sound coarse, but its the truth. These are 9x% crimes that are targeted. If you are scared, think: why would someone want to kill/kidnap me? If your answer is money, I assure you, there are people who have more than you (unless you run around paying 10 peso charges with a pack of 1000 peso bills). If your answer is because you are an American/Canadian, I assure you you aren't the only non-Hispanic here.

So where do some of my opinions come from? About 2 months ago, the town nearest to my business had a shootout on the highway between cartel members and the military. They were being chased from another city and decided to abandon their vehicles in this town. Instantly, everyone was afraid, even though it had nothing to do with and did not involve anyone in the town. The next week the military put on what I call their "revision show" checking on all area businesses to see if illegal things were happening. Then a story was gossiped on to be that store owners were kidnapped and murdered. Then that story was gossiped into that 5 kids were found dismembered and THATS why the military was there. 2 months later, a major economic point of all the local areas is a ghost-town after 7pm. All shops closed, nobody in the streets. And all because of gossip and an event unrelated to the community. So when your housekeeper is afraid to stand at the bus stop, consider the information she bases her decisions on before taking the stance that "she's a Mexican so she must know well".

Finally, yes, Mexico violence can be considered 'worse'. Having a group of people found hanging from a bridge can be considered more gruesome than a father killing his family then committing suicide. My two answers to that are that for one, the media is much more apt here to use the nastiest descriptions and pictures possible, vs NOB where the news has to be on a certain level of political correctness. And two, I don't care which is worse, because I don't plan to involve myself in either Mexico or US violence/activities that lead to violence. Random events find random people, and I HOPE that I can stay on as part of the advantage side of the statistics.


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## gijose

pappabee said:


> Watch out folks the NRA is talking!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> OK OK, so you have your right to your opinions. But let's get a few facts in order. Your Aunt's business had to be shut down. Who shut it down? Why? What kind of business was it? Rather than making a random statement, please supply a few facts to prove your point.
> 
> "Most murders in the US take place in ethnic neighborhoods, especially black." First and foremost that is a crock. Most murders in the US take place in POOR neighborhoods. True that many black neighborhoods are poor but there are a large number of white poor places also. Now if you're taking about expat safety please remember that in 20010 there were only 111 NOB's killed in all of Mexico (figure from the US Department of State). Yes there have been between 47K and 50K non-NOB's since Calderon's crackdown on narcos. Not all of them have been directly involved in the drug trade. Some were trying to get into the US, some were trying to get into Mexico (from the South), some were people that the gangs were trying to get to carry drugs from them and some were just innocent bystanders.
> 
> I'd like you to tell the Police Chefs of any major US city that the gun owners in their town are "hicks". What a joke. Take away my guns and I'll become bitter and kill someone.
> 
> JUST TOO MUCH TO TAKE.
> 
> Please get your facts together and be sure what you post is posted as opinion and not porported to be fact.


Everything you said is technically true, but for the purpose of explaining to a tourist its easier to just say ''stay out of black neighborhoods' instead of going into the socio-economic reasons behind it. Same with gun-lovers.. yes alot of gun-lovers arent hicks, but again everyone from a foreign country knows what a hick is, and this is broad strokes for common sense safety in a foreign land, not a 4 year course on sociology. So enough with the knee-jerk dogma, i find it justs wastes time when deaing with people not inculcuated within our PC system.

How would you like it if you were in China, and insead of saying 'stay out of that neighborhood, its dangerous' you got a lecture on how oh its not dangerous, because of some communist dogma about it being the people's land, or whatever. OK enough with that, every society has its 'company line' then the advise the locals REALLY follow. Japan same thing, oh honor this honor that, then you find out really corruption is rampant. And if you listen to the dogma-inculcated crowd, as a wide-eyed foreigner, who doesnt know to take it with a grain of salt, he can end up kidnapped, or killed.

If you are planning to LIVE somewhere, and not visit, then learn the local dogma, then after all that.. stay out of the black neighborhood at night, anyway. Because I guarantee you 100% that's what everyone DOES, even if they have different reasons for doing it.


----------



## conorkilleen

So you are basically saying that the best piece of advice for safety in the US is stay away from black people? That's ignorant.

...and I highly doubt that many foreigners know what a "hick" is. I asked my wife just now and she had no clue....and she lived in both the US and Mexico


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## FHBOY

Well, this conversation is now getting respectfully lively and interesting. GI Joe has a point of view which seems to have been honed from an upbringing and we cannot argue with his view of the world. We can however argue that it may be laced with generalizations.

There have been extensive threads in numerous places, including here, about the efficacy of gun ownership, so we need not pursue it further.

As to living within the "dogma" of a society, GI Joe again seems to believe a lot of the stereotyping we see rampant. Japanese are no more honorable than anyone else, their children (and I have first hand knowledge of this) are no more respectful and studious than any other children. 

In one respect he is correct - if you choose to live in another culture you need to adapt to it - we have also had lengthy discussions on that here on the Forum.

As to the broad brush characterization of being afraid of "black" neighborhoods, GI Joe is about 50 years too late and may be too young to have lived/learned the history. During the 60's after the death of MLK and Malcolm X, I'd say that GI Joe could have been more correct. Being white in Harlem, Bed-Stuy, (I am only familiar with NYC) may have been very dangerous, there was great anger against white people. That anger is gone for the most part now. Being white will not get you hurt in a "black" neighborhood unless you are there to do something to hurt the local residents. The hatred of whites, the overt hatred, from the 60's is gone. The odds of being attacked or robbed because one is white, or rather not black, is a non-factor.

Most "black" crime is unfortunately black on black crime and as said before that type of crime stems more from socioeconomic reasons, poverty, lack of opportunity, income inequality than racial motives. Like the current situation in Mexico, it stems from territorial battles between criminal elements and peripherally affects the "non-combatants", what the Mafia called "civilians".

When I read of "good" white kids taking their uncles gun and shoot other "good" white kids, that scares me. When the largest terrorist attack on US soil other than 9/11 was an attack by a white guy (Oklahoma City), it scares me more than GI Joe's "black" neighborhoods.

Next, I'd like to touch on what I read about the restaurants and places at Lakeside that are getting emptier of NOB'ers. It is a damn shame, a damn shame. I did not agree with GWB that the way to "defeat the terrorists" was to shop, but what I read before shows that the hunker down mentality of nervous Nellies at Lakeside will do more harm than good for the community. Expats maybe should take a clue from the Mexicans in the area, it seems from the post, that they are still enjoying life, while I have a picture in my mind of a big gray blanket being spread by the expats in the area.

Like GWB said, then the terrorists win - BTW I am not a GWB supporter - but in this case, gag, he made a point. If you who live there want your community to be as it was, you need to make it so. Yes, there is danger, probably more from a person stealing your ATM card than from a massive shoot out, but what good is living in your hunker bunker? Is that why you moved there? 

Also your perspective may be skewed because you have been living in an extremely safe and non-violent community for so long, you have measured any incident differently than we who live in the USA. You've had maybe six to ten major criminal actions in your area over the last year an a half, tragedies all. But we who are not living there read our police blotters and there are that many tragedies every day here.

Look I've gone on for a great while, a lot of this has been rambling because it is pouring out of my head, and I have no right, as a non-resident to be telling a resident how they should feel or act. I will save this response to look at it in a couple of years after I've lived in Ajijic and see if it was indeed naive and preachy, but in my gut, I think I know the answer: living in constant fear, succumbing to constant fear is not living.


----------



## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> living in constant fear, succumbing to constant fear is not living.


I like that line. A lot.

Back to the topic of Lake Chapala; there is a town meeting with the police chief tonight in the plaza. I will go. My prediction is that it will be mostly Mexicans with a few token gringos and one of the first questions, asked by an expat in sandals, socks, shorts and a bald sunburned head will include the words "property values" and a variety of phrases that will make most of the rest of us cringe.

It is at 6 PM and yannow it is not safe to be out after dark. Even with the spiffy new lighting in the remodelled plaza.


----------



## conorkilleen

Someone should put some tape over Token Gringos mouth before he gets beaten to a pulp by family members of the victims for asking about property values. I am sure emotions are running high with the Mexican locals in the area and in times like this I am assuming they won't be in the mood for some foreigner (US resident converted to Mexican resident or not) to be spouting off about "How much money do I stand to lose here?".


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## FHBOY

Grizzy said:


> I like that line. A lot....new lighting in the remodelled plaza.


Griz and Connor - you are right - some Palm Beach ****** who thinks his home in Mexico is an investment and not a place to live will show the Mexicans at the meet just how "ugly" USAers can be and how insensitive. I'll bet another thing about tonight's meeting:
• Someone will suggest a neighborhood watch
• Someone will complain about the police department
• At least three people will tell the audience how scared they are now and how the place is going to hell and how they won't go out at night any more.
• Lastly the hysterics amongst the gringos will take control of the meeting and the Mexicans, being as polite as they are will be forgotten, their suffering marginalized and the whole thing take on the atmosphere of a NYC co-op board meeting - where dog poop is a major problem.

Griz: I wish I was there, I love to see and hear what goes on. Oh, when did they complete the new lighting and is the new mosaic completed? They were working on them Easter time/ Hope someone will post or PM me pictures!!!


----------



## mickisue1

FHBOY said:


> Griz and Connor - you are right - some Palm Beach ****** who thinks his home in Mexico is an investment and not a place to live will show the Mexicans at the meet just how "ugly" USAers can be and how insensitive. I'll bet another thing about tonight's meeting:
> • Someone will suggest a neighborhood watch
> • Someone will complain about the police department
> • At least three people will tell the audience how scared they are now and how the place is going to hell and how they won't go out at night any more.
> • Lastly the hysterics amongst the gringos will take control of the meeting and the Mexicans, being as polite as they are will be forgotten, their suffering marginalized and the whole thing take on the atmosphere of a NYC co-op board meeting - where dog poop is a major problem.
> 
> Griz: I wish I was there, I love to see and hear what goes on. Oh, when did they complete the new lighting and is the new mosaic completed? They were working on them Easter time/ Hope someone will post or PM me pictures!!!


All that probably will happen.

Unless.

Unless some other ******, one with a heart as well as the ability to calculate, opens his/her mouth and says something on the order of, "You know, folks, there are people in this crowd who lost sons, brothers, nephews, friends. Let's shut up about our petty stuff, and offer them the dignity of compassion."


----------



## Detailman

mickisue1 said:


> All that probably will happen.
> 
> Unless.
> 
> Unless some other ******, one with a heart as well as the ability to calculate, opens his/her mouth and says something on the order of, "You know, folks, there are people in this crowd who lost sons, brothers, nephews, friends. Let's shut up about our petty stuff, and offer them the dignity of compassion."[/QUOTE]
> 
> Great line, mickisue! :clap2:
> 
> Now, I would suggest that someone that plans on attending the meeting learn it and be willing to step up and say it. It would earn the respecct of many of the Mexicans as well as those Gringos that have adopted the Mexican culture and/or thinking.
> 
> It could also give some idiot second thoughts about opening his mouth and saying something "senseless." (Also "insensitive.")


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## conorkilleen

If it doesn't come from the heart then you are doing it wrong. Should not be rehearsed or "learned" to say because that is what you think they want to hear. Either you feel that way on your own or you don't.

I would just attend, listen, and hear what the local Mexicans have to say first. The meeting time should not be compromised by "fill" talk. Ask questions and listen to the answers without speaking out of turn.

I too am looking forward to what they have to say (local authorities). I have attended many, many, town hall meetings here in Monterrey and its almost like a recording...coming from both sides. I wonder what it will be like to be present at the first meeting after the first time something like this has happened in such a hallowed area.

Be safe and go shopping.


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## tepetapan

conorkilleen;787014...... this has happened in such a hallowed area......
.[/QUOTE said:


> Sorry but are we still talking about the Ajijic area or are we going to Jerusalem or Mecca? Hallowed area? Pouring it on a bit thick aren´t we?
> The meeting is just to sooth some nerves, they are going to say what they have been told to say. They will not be giving you any information, so to speak. This is a police and military investigation, not a TV show.
> Show up to show your support and concern, if you fell the need. Let the locals do the talking, your input is probably not wanted or needed.


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## conorkilleen

tepetapan said:


> Sorry but are we still talking about the Ajijic area or are we going to Jerusalem or Mecca? Hallowed area? Pouring it on a bit thick aren´t we?
> .


Perhaps my sarcasm was not recognized.


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## Detailman

conorkilleen said:


> If it doesn't come from the heart then you are doing it wrong. Should not be rehearsed or "learned" to say because that is what you think they want to hear. Either you feel that way on your own or you don't.
> 
> I would just attend, listen, and hear what the local Mexicans have to say first. The meeting time should not be compromised by "fill" talk. Ask questions and listen to the answers without speaking out of turn.
> 
> I too am looking forward to what they have to say (local authorities). I have attended many, many, town hall meetings here in Monterrey and its almost like a recording...coming from both sides. I wonder what it will be like to be present at the first meeting after the first time something like this has happened in such a hallowed area.
> 
> Be safe and go shopping.


It would appear that when a subject gets emotional people start to nitpick over words.

I would never memorize words myself and I would "never" say something simply because I thought it would please someone else. And I have spoken hundreds of times over the years at public meetings. Sometimes for myself, sometimes for companies and sometimes as representing hundreds of other people.

BUT ---- I guess when things get heated up people do not want to read between the lines. If I want to comment I will have to do what I notice some others do. Go into a very lengthy detailed discussion to cover all angles and make sure that no-one takes anything out of context or ever needs to read between the lines and come to a sensible conclusion on their own.

So --- say your general comment in a sentence or two and then explain all the variables or possible ways someone else "might" take it and then expand your two or three sentence comment to a full page dialogue to make sure you have covered all possible angles. Whatever!


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Meeting*



tepetapan said:


> Show up to show your support and concern, if you fell the need. Let the locals do the talking, your input is probably not wanted or needed.


Not wanted or needed ,at least to me, is being a bit patronizing towards the locals. I thought there were about as many as 15,000 foreigners residing there at least part of the year. In context to not wanting to voice their opinion or concern I feel this would be seen as a lack of courage. After all it a disclosure of recent events and not a wake. To see yourself as an outsider does alienate people from their chosen community and not really a good way to feel NO MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON THERE. To me this is a community problem, not just a Mexican community problem.


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## conorkilleen

AlanMexicali said:


> Not wanted or needed ,at least to me, is being a bit patronizing towards the locals. I thought there were about as many as 15,000 foreigners residing there at least part of the year. In context to not wanting to voice their opinion or concern I feel this would be seen as a lack of courage. After all it a disclosure of recent events and not a wake. To see yourself as an outsider does alienate people from their chosen community and not really a good way to feel NO MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON THERE. To me this is a community problem, not just a Mexican community problem.


I'll agree to disagree with you on the last note. Until expats start getting kidnapped and killed its truly a Mexican community problem first. Does it affect expats? Yes. More than the gardeners family? No.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Characteristics*



conorkilleen said:


> I'll agree to disagree with you on the last note. Until expats start getting kidnapped and killed its truly a Mexican community problem first. Does it affect expats? Yes. More than the gardeners family? No.


This might be seen a political motivated event, but I see it as a disclosure of recent events and precautions taken to stop it from happening again and advise to the community as a whole on possibly how to proceed forward. I get sort of get tired of people characterizing Mexicans as oversensitive and homogeneous. Their diverse population is as unique in the same ways as many countries are and do not all think or act alike. I think who does what or who does not do what is getting old.


----------



## gijose

Well let me tell you a story about my area to illustrate your point. Im living in an all white area, and right next door is a mexican area.. I drive through there every day, not even knowing or caring, go to the restaurants, etc hire mexicans to help me move something or whatever. One night, my car breaks down at 2am in that neighborhood and a cop gets out and helps me push it. I tell him I'll just leave it in the 7-11 parking alot, call a tow truck tomorrow. He tells me its a bad idea, beause its a 'dangerous neighborhood'

I never saw grafitti or heard gunfire.. and i go in this neighborhood everday. Also I'm a big guy, not a little old lady. Then it struck me, the cop was white, and the neigbhorhood was mexican. I had to laugh, then I remember how paranoid he was in rolling up on my car. The cop was young but had that little street sense.This is a new phenomenon in the US, the old cops would never have been that off in their assessment of reality. To me it is amazing. 

But I've also been in some bad areas that really are dangerous, so dont kid yourself. I was at a nightclub, someone got shot in the head. The police descended on the club like it was a freaking miitary invasion.. coronded off like 4 roads, helicopters, 200 people virtually held hostage, meanwhile the shooter just ran off on foot and noone found him. The rest of us were stuck in that parking lot for 4 hours with no bathrooms.


----------



## conorkilleen

gijose said:


> Well let me tell you a story about my area to illustrate your point. Im living in an all white area, and right next door is a mexican area.. I drive through there every day, not even knowing or caring, go to the restaurants, etc hire mexicans to help me move something or whatever. One night, my car breaks down at 2am in that neighborhood and a cop gets out and helps me push it. I tell him I'll just leave it in the 7-11 parking alot, call a tow truck tomorrow. He tells me its a bad idea, beause its a 'dangerous neighborhood'
> 
> I never saw grafitti or heard gunfire.. and i go in this neighborhood everday. Also I'm a big guy, not a little old lady. Then it struck me, the cop was white, and the neigbhorhood was mexican. I had to laugh, then I remember how paranoid he was in rolling up on my car. The cop was young but had that little street sense.This is a new phenomenon in the US, the old cops would never have been that off in their assessment of reality. To me it is amazing.
> 
> But I've also been in some bad areas that really are dangerous, so dont kid yourself.


What did any of that mean?


----------



## Detailman

AlanMexicali said:


> Not wanted or needed ,at least to me, is being a bit patronizing towards the locals. I thought there were about as many as 15,000 foreigners residing there at least part of the year. In context to not wanting to voice their opinion or concern I feel this would be seen as a lack of courage. After all it a disclosure of recent events and not a wake. To see yourself as an outsider does alienate people from their chosen community and not really a good way to feel NO MATTER WHAT IS GOING ON THERE. To me this is a community problem, not just a Mexican community problem.


As I am replying to not just your quote, which I personally feel is correct, I need to add one of the replies to your quote from conorkilleen, which is as follows:

"I'll agree to disagree with you on the last note. Until expats start getting kidnapped and killed its truly a Mexican community problem first. Does it affect expats? Yes. More than the gardeners family? No."

I couldn't help but be reminded of a quote (apparently there are different versions but this is close to his preferred one - the point being the thought - not the exact words):

*"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up. — Martin Niemoeller, German Lutheran Pastor (1892-1984) "*

I hope that this speaks for itself as to the point.


----------



## circle110

gijose said:


> Well let me tell you a story about my area to illustrate your point. Im living in an all white area, and right next door is a mexican area.. I drive through there every day, not even knowing or caring, go to the restaurants, etc hire mexicans to help me move something or whatever. One night, my car breaks down at 2am in that neighborhood and a cop gets out and helps me push it. I tell him I'll just leave it in the 7-11 parking alot, call a tow truck tomorrow. He tells me its a bad idea, beause its a 'dangerous neighborhood'
> 
> I never saw grafitti or heard gunfire.. and i go in this neighborhood everday. Also I'm a big guy, not a little old lady. Then it struck me, the cop was white, and the neigbhorhood was mexican. I had to laugh, then I remember how paranoid he was in rolling up on my car. The cop was young but had that little street sense.This is a new phenomenon in the US, the old cops would never have been that off in their assessment of reality. To me it is amazing.
> 
> But I've also been in some bad areas that really are dangerous, so dont kid yourself. I was at a nightclub, someone got shot in the head. The police descended on the club like it was a freaking miitary invasion.. coronded off like 4 roads, helicopters, 200 people virtually held hostage, meanwhile the shooter just ran off on foot and noone found him. The rest of us were stuck in that parking lot for 4 hours with no bathrooms.


I'm confused. Your profile says that you life in Asunción, Paraguay. Did this happen there or in the US?


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## tepetapan

AlanMexicali;787024.... I thought there were about as many as 15 said:


> A population of say 15,000 in an area of over 1.5 million makes you the 1%. Hmmm.
> The 1% is nothing more than a paycheck to the other 99%. You do not think, feel, shop, eat, live, cry or feel pain like most the other 99%. Accept your station in life, it´s not all bad. But don´t kid yourself.


----------



## AlanMexicali

tepetapan said:


> A population of say 15,000 in an area of over 1.5 million makes you the 1%. Hmmm.
> The 1% is nothing more than a paycheck to the other 99%. You do not think, feel, shop, eat, live, cry or feel pain like most the other 99%. Accept your station in life, it´s not all bad. But don´t kid yourself.


Chapala is a city and municipality in the central Mexican state of Jalisco, located on the north shore of Lake Chapala, Mexico's largest freshwater lake. According to the 2005 census, its population is 43,345 for the municipality.


----------



## FHBOY

tepetapan said:


> A population of say 15,000 in an area of over 1.5 million makes you the 1%. Hmmm.
> The 1% is nothing more than a paycheck to the other 99%. You do not think, feel, shop, eat, live, cry or feel pain like most the other 99%. Accept your station in life, it´s not all bad. But don´t kid yourself.


So you mean...I've made it!!! - My Social Security check makes me a 1%er living in Lakeside. Boy, now I don't have to talk to anyone...I can ship my extra USD over to my bank in the Caymans! I'm effing rich!!!

Howcum I don't feel it?


----------



## tepetapan

AlanMexicali said:


> Chapala is a city and municipality in the central Mexican state of Jalisco, located on the north shore of Lake Chapala, Mexico's largest freshwater lake. According to the 2005 census, its population is 43,345 for the municipality.


Don´t start picking feas. With the metro guad you are (oh, wait , you don´t even live there) at

Guadalajara (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡwaðalaˈxaɾa]) is the capital of the Mexican state of Jalisco, and the seat of the municipality of Guadalajara. The city is located in the central region of Jalisco in the western-pacific area of Mexico. With a population of 1,564,514 it is Mexico's second most populous municipality.[1

Plus your 40,000 is 1.6 million. more or less. Come up with something better than that if you want to discuss the reason for dead bodies.
AND, it is only Mexico´s largest lake when there is water in it.


----------



## FHBOY

tepetapan said:


> Don´t start picking feas. With the metro guad you are (oh, wait , you don´t even live there) at
> 
> Guadalajara (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡwaðalaˈxaɾa]) is the capital of the Mexican state of Jalisco, and the seat of the municipality of Guadalajara. The city is located in the central region of Jalisco in the western-pacific area of Mexico. With a population of 1,564,514 it is Mexico's second most populous municipality.[1
> 
> Plus your 40,000 is 1.6 million. more or less. Come up with something better than that if you want to discuss the reason for dead bodies.
> AND, it is only Mexico´s largest lake when there is water in it.


...ya know I was just there - there is water in it, and if you do some reearch you'll find that the lake is getting more water each year...so I think we can say the lake will be here long after we've all shuffled off our mortal coils. (unlike the Dead Sea which is shrinking).

...and this has to do with dead bodies how?


----------



## johnmex

I've said it once and I'll say it again. After 20 years of living and working here, I feel safer here than in the US. 

Right now I am more worried about what is for dinner and whether it will rain tonight or not than I am about getting caught up in random drug violence/kidnapped/murdered/gang-raped.....

Disclaimer...the above is my opinion and should not be taken as fact...end disclaimer.


----------



## FHBOY

johnmex said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again. After 20 years of living and working here, I feel safer here than in the US.
> 
> Right now I am more worried about what is for dinner and whether it will rain tonight or not than I am about getting caught up in random drug violence/kidnapped/murdered/gang-raped.....


Ohblahdee, Ohbladah live goes on, braugh!


----------



## johnmex

Well, excuse me for living...


----------



## tepetapan

FHBOY said:


> ...ya know I was just there - there is water in it, and if you do some reearch you'll find that the lake is getting more water each year...so I think we can say the lake will be here long after we've all shuffled off our mortal coils. (unlike the Dead Sea which is shrinking).
> 
> ...and this has to do with dead bodies how?


 OK OK, it was out of line. and a cheap shot..The water level has come up thanks to the lobbying efforts of local residents and a few hurricanes.


----------



## mickisue1

johnmex said:


> Well, excuse me for living...


It's OK. You need to speak the language of snark to understand that the comment by FHBoy was a compliment. 

Really, it was.

It's my native tongue, so I understood.


----------



## Detailman

tepetapan said:


> Don´t start picking feas. With the metro guad you are (oh, wait , you don´t even live there) at
> 
> Guadalajara (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡwaðalaˈxaɾa]) is the capital of the Mexican state of Jalisco, and the seat of the municipality of Guadalajara. The city is located in the central region of Jalisco in the western-pacific area of Mexico. With a population of 1,564,514 it is Mexico's second most populous municipality.[1
> 
> Plus your 40,000 is 1.6 million. more or less. Come up with something better than that if you want to discuss the reason for dead bodies.
> AND, it is only Mexico´s largest lake when there is water in it.


I think you should recheck your facts. I believe you are talking about the main area of Guadalajara rather than the Guadalajara Metropolitan Area (GMA). That population is at a minimum three times what you say. And from the example you give, of adding the Lakeside area, you are far off base.

Please check your facts before you start to correct everyone. Thanks.


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## FHBOY

johnmex said:


> Well, excuse me for living...


I thank Mickie for the explanation, but you need to know that it was meant to totally agree with you not to zap you. There is a saying on a piece of paper on my refrigerator which reads:

Loosen up. Except for rare life-or-death matters, nothing is as important as it first seems.

Works for me.


----------



## johnmex

Ok, Sorry for the mis-understanding.


----------



## edgeee

how did this thread go mute? i want to know what happened since the last post.
how did such a tasty topic get ignored? not many threads here even come close to this in terms of importance.
i've read it over and over, not wanting to butt in, but since i want to move to LC area, i have to ask.
but i'm still not sure which questions are appropriate.
soooo, i'll just throw out a few to see what meat the wolves want to eat.

ignoring minor(!) matters such as population breakdown, at least for now,
i've tried to assemble the issues that seem most critical (imho).
they are in no particular order, since each will have it's own priority in each persons mind.
and no doubt i have missed a few/lot, since my own viewpoint comes from looking thru a funnel that is this forum.

What happened at the town meeting? (this and others should probably have a devoted thread, but how many threads is too many?)
what has happened since, in terms of developments and also any actions taken? (leave out the unintended consequences for now.)
has anyone seriously looked at how unique this microcosm of society is? (is 'when worlds collide' too strong?)
who has reflected on their own view of violence and it's many forms? i've seen so many views expressed about it here, has it changed for you?

also i must say this: so-called 'bad places' are mobile. they will come to you, sooner or later, or you will meet somewhere in the middle.
if your life has had no horrific suffering, say a prayer of thanks, if you believe in prayer.
Bill Bradley is famous for many things, but what i like is the phrase 'a sense of where you are'.
constant vigilance is more than just a concept, tho that is not what he meant, but i do.

and most important of all, could someone please give me the proper pronuncation of Ajijic so my brain won't implode?

happy trails and safe travels, ed.

p.s.
i'm just starting to learn snark talk, but i'm pretty good at pita-speak.


----------



## pappabee

edgeee said:


> how did this thread go mute? i want to know what happened since the last post.
> how did such a tasty topic get ignored? not many threads here even come close to this in terms of importance.
> i've read it over and over, not wanting to butt in, but since i want to move to LC area, i have to ask.
> but i'm still not sure which questions are appropriate.
> soooo, i'll just throw out a few to see what meat the wolves want to eat.
> 
> ignoring minor(!) matters such as population breakdown, at least for now,
> i've tried to assemble the issues that seem most critical (imho).
> they are in no particular order, since each will have it's own priority in each persons mind.
> and no doubt i have missed a few/lot, since my own viewpoint comes from looking thru a funnel that is this forum.
> 
> What happened at the town meeting? (this and others should probably have a devoted thread, but how many threads is too many?)
> what has happened since, in terms of developments and also any actions taken? (leave out the unintended consequences for now.)
> has anyone seriously looked at how unique this microcosm of society is? (is 'when worlds collide' too strong?)
> who has reflected on their own view of violence and it's many forms? i've seen so many views expressed about it here, has it changed for you?
> 
> also i must say this: so-called 'bad places' are mobile. they will come to you, sooner or later, or you will meet somewhere in the middle.
> if your life has had no horrific suffering, say a prayer of thanks, if you believe in prayer.
> Bill Bradley is famous for many things, but what i like is the phrase 'a sense of where you are'.
> constant vigilance is more than just a concept, tho that is not what he meant, but i do.
> 
> and most important of all, could someone please give me the proper pronuncation of Ajijic so my brain won't implode?
> 
> happy trails and safe travels, ed.
> 
> p.s.
> i'm just starting to learn snark talk, but i'm pretty good at pita-speak.


As far as the pronuncatioin of Ajijic goes your best bet is to use google translate type in the Ajijic and got to the little speaker and it will say the word for you.

As far as the rest goes. This has been covered in many threads and in the newspapers. You can Goggle "security at lake chapala" and get many different web sites. Most of us here have lived through the dead bodies, the capture of some of the people responsible, the aftermath, the meeting, the I'm going to move, the I'm not going to move. All of that and much more. It was not dropped it just died a tired death. :ranger:


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## mickisue1

pappabee said:


> As far as the pronuncatioin of Ajijic goes your best bet is to use google translate type in the Ajijic and got to the little speaker and it will say the word for you.
> 
> As far as the rest goes. This has been covered in many threads and in the newspapers. You can Goggle "security at lake chapala" and get many different web sites. Most of us here have lived through the dead bodies, the capture of some of the people responsible, the aftermath, the meeting, the I'm going to move, the I'm not going to move. All of that and much more. It was not dropped it just died a tired death. :ranger:


There are a number of websites with pronunciations on them, as well.

You can use google translate, or just type "pronounce (word)" in the google search window, and you'll find the sites.


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## edgeee

thanks, i'll be using the pronounce word a lot now that i know about it.

still, i am somewhat perplexed. i've been reading this forum for three days now, (yes, i need a life; that's why i'm here.), and several threads deal with the violence in mx, but most of what i have found is opinions about violence and complaints that really don't add anything to the discussion. i can see why that would make people grow tired of the topic. it's hard to discuss rationally to begin with.
and every one of them is dormant for at least a month! widespread apathy brought on by TMI?

but here's my side of it. tho i may never be known as 'your friend', meaning a friend to all who live in LC area, i hope to become one someday to some people, and many of you are already friends in my mind for the help you have given me.

the info i seek isn't in any news report. it's inside the minds i've seen on display here.
friendly intelligent conversation is an art and a pleasure to treasure.
for instance, i'll throw this into the pot: in the LCA, how has life changed over the past month? (i know, i could start a thread.)
it's difficult to learn about a place and it's people from far away but i'm trying.
when so many posters suddenly disappeared i wondered why. the town meeting had to be a pivotal moment. many weighed in on what would happen, BUT NO ONE EVER SAID *WHAT DID HAPPEN!*

i'm a bit of a mad scientist and i see the LCA as a petri dish full of a brand new culture i want to crawl into. 

one thing i will stipulate, this thread, because of the unfortunate title, has to be replaced by something more apropos of current events.
maybe i *will* start a new thread.
and as for all the violence, there is no where it aint.


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## FHBOY

*Snarkiness*



edgeee said:


> p.s.
> i'm just starting to learn snark talk, but i'm pretty good at pita-speak.


Edgee: There is even a thread or part of a thread about being snarky here. In short, we don't do it, it is not polite. We agree and disagree, but being snarky is not an acceptable communication. 

:ranger: One thing your research has uncovered is the Forum is not a debating society and in many ways does not mirror the usual "blogosphere". Debate doesn't get personal and arguments are not assertions.

I like my pita with felafel, hummus, lettuce and tomatoes and tehina. Isn't that what you mean? :israel:


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## pappabee

edgeee said:


> thanks, i'll be using the pronounce word a lot now that i know about it.
> 
> still, i am somewhat perplexed. i've been reading this forum for three days now, (yes, i need a life; that's why i'm here.), and several threads deal with the violence in mx, but most of what i have found is opinions about violence and complaints that really don't add anything to the discussion. i can see why that would make people grow tired of the topic. it's hard to discuss rationally to begin with.
> and every one of them is dormant for at least a month! widespread apathy brought on by TMI?
> 
> but here's my side of it. tho i may never be known as 'your friend', meaning a friend to all who live in LC area, i hope to become one someday to some people, and many of you are already friends in my mind for the help you have given me.
> 
> the info i seek isn't in any news report. it's inside the minds i've seen on display here.
> friendly intelligent conversation is an art and a pleasure to treasure.
> for instance, i'll throw this into the pot: in the LCA, how has life changed over the past month? (i know, i could start a thread.)
> it's difficult to learn about a place and it's people from far away but i'm trying.
> when so many posters suddenly disappeared i wondered why. the town meeting had to be a pivotal moment. many weighed in on what would happen, BUT NO ONE EVER SAID *WHAT DID HAPPEN!*
> 
> i'm a bit of a mad scientist and i see the LCA as a petri dish full of a brand new culture i want to crawl into.
> 
> one thing i will stipulate, this thread, because of the unfortunate title, has to be replaced by something more apropos of current events.
> maybe i *will* start a new thread.
> and as for all the violence, there is no where it aint.


There are a few things that your reading should have pointed out to you. First of all this site is not just for Lakeside but for the entire country. Those people living at the border have very little concern with 14 bodies found in Jalisco. They have enough bodies of their own. Second of all this site (and the large majority of posters) try very hard not to spread rumors. 

The bodies were found the beginning of May and it is now the middle of June. As of last Monday 13 of the 14 had been identified. During the month of May there were a lot of postings and articles about what was going on. About the meetings and the results or lack of them. There are web sites that deal only with Chapala and those were very busy during May. Since many posters here also read some of those other sites information was shared. 

Let me try to address a few of your concerns. Just like most things during the month of May there were a lot of different things going on. Parents kept their kids home from school, kids were not allowed to play after dark, people walked in twos and threes and the police were much more visible. BUT, as nothing more happened all these NOs went away and life returned to normal. 

There were at least three meetings with the result that there is a tip line and some contact numbers but nothing more. As the Chapala Police Chief said, what more can i do with only 60 men per shift. 

Also, since the snowbirds have gone back there are a lot of posters that will not post until after September when they return. 

In closing IMHO you can not learn a culture by reading about it. You must live it. The people here are wonderful but you will only experience it when you live here. Even if its only for a few months. It is necessary to immerse yourself in the environment to understand it. 

Each one of the posts here (mine included) show the posters' personality and we each look at life here with our own eyes. You can not look through our eyes and see what you want to see. YOU MUST LOOK THROUGH YOUR OWN EYES.


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## edgeee

thank you pappabee, i hear you.
i want to visit there soon, but it's just not possible until next year some time.
in august i will be having a hip replaced, and it took months to recover when the other one was done 5 yrs ago.

i'm glad to hear some progress has been made. a tip line # is a good first step, but as you say, i.e. the police chief, there are always budget constraints. i was just so curious about the communities there and the cultures within. i know i'm over reacting a little. i got this happy jolt when i read this forum, and started learning about so many smart people and their thoughts. then i read this thread and it ended with a cliff hanger and suddenly those new friends were threatened. crazy, i know.

so i'll let it go now. i see no need to keep replaying this sad song.
but i do still care about y'all, as silly as that may be, so please keep in touch.
you and about 10 others are on my IOU list.


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## Detailman

edgeee said:


> thank you pappabee, i hear you.
> i want to visit there soon, but it's just not possible until next year some time.
> in august i will be having a hip replaced, and it took months to recover when the other one was done 5 yrs ago.
> 
> i'm glad to hear some progress has been made. a tip line # is a good first step, but as you say, i.e. the police chief, there are always budget constraints. i was just so curious about the communities there and the cultures within. i know i'm over reacting a little. i got this happy jolt when i read this forum, and started learning about so many smart people and their thoughts. then i read this thread and it ended with a cliff hanger and suddenly those new friends were threatened. crazy, i know.
> 
> so i'll let it go now. i see no need to keep replaying this sad song.
> but i do still care about y'all, as silly as that may be, so please keep in touch.
> you and about 10 others are on my IOU list.


You will notice that I am the one that started this particular thread. I did not start the thread for sensationalism but simply because it was the first time that something this drastic had happened so close to Lakeside and I was interested in hearing the thoughts of the full time residents that were closer to the situation than I was. I felt that their observations would trump anything that I might personally feel, although I agree that everyone has the right to their personal feelings and has to make decisions based on their personal criteria.

The consensus seemed to be that although this was a traumatic experience for local residents and even some expats it still needed to be kept in context.

Many of those who have visited Mexico, and particularly Lakeside, feel that it provides more safety than the cities where they reside in Canada and the USA. The statistics are abundant to prove that this is true (I am focussing on Lakeside and not on border areas or cities like Monterrey, for example) but you still have to experience Mexico (and thereby I mean any city) to feel what your "gut" tells you.

Personally I felt that my wife and I could walk the streets of Ajijic late at night (dark) and never feel insecure, although I am experienced at being focussed and observant to surroundings. I cannot say the same for areas of Vancouver (although it is consistently ranked as one of the most liveable areas of the world) and even my own locality although it is a high end area. Far more crime in my area than around Lakeside. You would have to determine for yourself what any other city in Mexico is like - from your perspective.

As a result you will find that the majority expressed the opinion that they are happy where they are and feel a relative comfort level. Whether that applies to others remains to be seen and that is why they always encourage other to visit to determine for themselves what their experience is, which will be determined by their personal criteria.

What most experienced posters realize is that it is impossible, for someone that has never been in Mexico, to determine from an armchair position in another part of the world what life is really about in Mexico (or any location for that matter). Hence the often expressed invitation to visit, experience, and make up your mind.

Those that make their decisions based on forum comments or second or third hand experiences are truly only making educated or uneducated guesses as the case might be!

I hope this helps you to see why some posters feel it is redundant experiences or feelings that do not reflect what your experiences or feelings might be. Come! Experience! Arrive at your own conclusions! Many others have already done that but they can’t speak for other people. But they can extend the invitation to visit.


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## Retired-Veteran

I don’t know a lot but here is what I’ve seen. I have been here four days now of this 5 week trip. I’ve now walked about 23 miles of the town of Chapala. Up and down most of the side streets always taking photos. I’ve been met with smiles and kind words. Some of the walks were after dark but then I stuck to the main streets and Malecon. In the town center and at night there are many people out enjoying the cool breezes and with children playing.

Not playing like in America at an arm’s reach from mom, no! The children are all running around the square and having fun playing ball and eating snacks.

I feel safer here than at Pikes Place Market in Seattle! In Seattle you have more of a chance of being robbed by a gangbanger than being bothered by Cartel here. IMHO

Yes, I'll like living here.


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## Grizzy

Retired-Veteran said:


> I don’t know a lot but here is what I’ve seen. I have been here four days now of this 5 week trip. I’ve now walked about 23 miles of the town of Chapala. Up and down most of the side streets always taking photos. I’ve been met with smiles and kind words. Some of the walks were after dark but then I stuck to the main streets and Malecon. In the town center and at night there are many people out enjoying the cool breezes and with children playing.
> 
> Not playing like in America at an arm’s reach from mom, no! The children are all running around the square and having fun playing ball and eating snacks.
> 
> I feel safer here than at Pikes Place Market in Seattle! In Seattle you have more of a chance of being robbed by a gangbanger than being bothered by Cartel here. IMHO
> 
> *Yes, I'll like living here*.


:clap2::clap2::clap2:

So happy to read this RVet!

I am not sure that I can answer the questions posted for follow up. The opinions of what happened are varied. In Mexico news is not as cut and dried as it is in other countries. Journalists in Mexico are one of the most endangered in the world so reporting is spotty.
The violence that we saw Lakeside in May is similar to that experienced daily in border towns and other plazas under battle by the rival cartels. The only difference is that the victims were for the most part innocents taken from the streets to boost the numbers.

The tip line was started a few months before the May incidents after a prominent American was murdered in town.
The Federales and State police have been here in larger numbers for the last few weeks and police on the beat now have dedicated cell phones for citizens to call for immediate response.
A lot of the villages are still mourning the loss of family members and it is sad and heartbreaking to say the least. A fund to assist with burials. counseling, loss of income to the families and other costs was set up by the expat community and disbursed this week. Life is slowly returning to a normal summer pace, whatever normal is.

There are many dedicated lakeside forums debating the nuances ad nauseum and some are valuable while others are just drama fests and rumour mills.

Arrests were made, safe houses busted, evidence gathered, pieces put together and I doubt that we will know the outcome. This is typical in Mexico. There is not a lot of reporting after arrests for various reasons.

In short, the culture here is different than where you or I are from and to live here you should respect the differences. The questions that can be answered are not the same as the 6 o clock news north of the border.

When you add the fact that the majority of the expat population here is over a certain age you get a very unusual set of demographic dynamics. I can't explain others thinking or actions, only my own.

I go out day and night, alone or in groups of women or mixed groups. I always have and I didn't stop after the bodies were discovered. I did not see the deserted streets that others described. I saw my town (Ajijic) in typical May and June "snow birds gone home and vacationers from Mexico not here yet because the kids are still in school" mode. 

I am not downplaying the horror of what happened. To live here you have to be a certain kind of person. I have said this before and will repeat it here. I refuse to live my life in fear. If I feel that I am not safe here I will leave but I am a long way from that feeling. I would not presume to make that decision for anyone else.

My heart aches for the families everywhere who have lost loved ones in this senseless war and I hope a change of strategy can reduce the carnage but I fear that is a long way off.


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## FHBOY

Grizzy said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2:
> 
> So happy to read this RVet!...I fear that is a long way off.


Yes, we've beaten this topic to death, and it is OK - to many it is still brand new. 

Today I opened the Baltimore Sun, of the reports of crimes there were three murders Saturday and yesterday alone but, as it has said again and again, it was in neighborhoods that are unfortunately known for these crimes. They were also random, no overriding reason given, all the cases different. We've had over 100 murders/homicides in Baltimore City already this year. Has any activities in Baltimore, or even in these neighborhoods changed because of the murders? IS there a mass exodus from here? Nope, the majority of the population just keep doing what they are doing. It is just as Grizzy says, nothing changes day-to-day. Just be aware.

Knowing where to be or not be be, knowing when to be there or not, taking simple precautions using your common sense and knowledge is still the best tool.


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## edgeee

*can i play too?*

disclaimer: This is all only my opinions and i own no property, so sue me at your own risk.
(this should make repeating "i think" unnecessary, but it doesn't seem to work.)

Thomas Wolfe wrote _You Can't Go Home Again_. usually i would agree. (a highly relevant work, btw.)

as prviously stated, i think this: as for violence, there is no place it aint.

from where i sit, far removed, it would make no sense to judge anything, so i won't.
but i will gladly vent some visceral violence of a verbal nature.
(not really, but i adore alliteration, and the word visceral is accurate,even if verbal isn't, and i seldom get to use it.)

as C&P from the big wiki,

visceral (anatomy) Of or relating to the viscera—internal organs of the body; splanchnic.

*Having to do with the response of the body as opposed to the intellect, as in the distinction between feeling and thinking.*
(emphasis added.)
violence is in all of us, but it varies a great deal.
a mother bear with with cubs is a different animal.

i have a love/hate relationship with labels. we must have them, to discuss anything, but we use them so poorly.
'random violence' means different things to different people. not really their fault, it just is, due to the variety of perspectives.
so the poorly part means we attach our own meaning to another's usage. this is a form of shortend communication, troublesome, but common.
to elaborate more just makes it worse, so we live with it. (i cringe at all the intentional mis-spelling. i tried that when i was 6.)

we might make more sense if we started hanging a geo prefix, i.e, mex-violence, us-violence, NC-violence, but i doubt it.
but i believe in it. our environment is a major factor in many ways.
i had an uncle who cut a guy open in the parking lot of the VFW when i was about twelve; drunken violence, but was it random?
the saturday night dance at the VFW was THE social event of any week. it was also crime central, since we had none elsewhere.

so to me - and i am the exception - 'random violence' is truly only the visceral, heat-of-the-moment kind.
pretty much everything else involves thinking about it for a while first.
but there is that gray area - there always is - where labels overlap.
when a drive-by in detroit caps a baby in it's crib, it's a random death, but the crime is not random, tho it is all too common.

IMO the US violence is such a huge issue because the safety zones have all eroded with time, thus the presumed need for gated communities.
(i learned in vegas that gates also keep violence in, not just out, and they don't do that either.)

there used to be places in the USA where the local society looked much like modern-day small-town Mexico.
not the same, of course, but similar.

everyone knew everyone. people helped each other out of neccessity.
kids my age made their first real spending money when it was time to bale hay. (and yes, only when the sun shines, for at least 3 days.)
oddly enough, at that time it was $1/hr US. but one neighbor thought that was crap, since it was a new development.
he pitched in when we needed him, so why should he have to pay for the same. dad paid me on the sly when we helped him.
but i tangress.

'progress' has a way of being many things, the law of unintended consequences applies.
Americans have been isolating in general for decades. 
if you do anything the same way long enough you will start to notice parts you don't like.
now the pedulum is swinging back a little.

i will go home again. my dad is 81 and i will go back to be with him a while.
and then i will look for a 'new' 'hometown' somewhere in Mexico.
while i have been wandering through life, my original home has been moving south. time to meet up.


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