# Visa 189 Rejection - EOI score downgraded by IMMI



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

Our 189 visa application was rejected after just over 4 months. We applied 30 July 2018 and we received an IMMI rejection notice 30 November 2018.

We had a joint visa application underway, with my girlfriend as the primary applicant. As the partner I didnt register my skills for the extra 5 points. The EOI as a Surgical Nurse gave her 80 points when assessed by ANMAC, which included 2.5 years of qualified nursing post degree (Surgical Nurse) experience, but over 11 years experience as a Healthcare assistance (HCA). The last 4 of which was on the job placement during her degree study which I would have considered "consistent with a career advancement pathway". It is arguable whether the HCA work is "determined by an assessing authority that it is closely related to your nominated occupation", but this must be what ANMAC have determined as she only has 2.5 years post degree experience. We provided all relvant information that was requested by ANMAC who made the points assessment. No information was false or inaccurate from our perspective and nothing has subsequently changed.

ANMAC who are appointed by the Department for Affairs (DHA) or aka IMMI, had scored my girlfriend at 80 points and said we are suitable for migration. We were then issued an EOI. Within the 60 days we applied for a full visa at a cost of around £3,300 for the two of us. Remember we only applied because we had been assessed by their approved body and had been successful.

Now, as of the end of November our application has been rejected, with no apparent way to appeal. IMMI have said that my girlfriends past experience is not valid and they have overruled the decision of their own skills assessor ANMAC. Subsequently, our score has been downgraded to 60 points, from the original 80 in the EOI. We need a minimum for 70 for our application to be accepted for a 189 Skilled Independent Visa as a Surgical Nurse.

Here is a summary of what is in our rejection notice.
Notification of refusal of application for a Skilled Independent (Permanent) (class SI) Skilled - Independent (Points-Tested) (subclass 189) visa
Review rights: There is no right of merits review for this decision.
Questions about this decision: We cannot consider your visa application any further.
Visa application charge: The visa application charge which has already been paid can only be refunded in limited circumstances, regardless of the application outcome.

We still wish to pursue a 189 visa but we are seeking help and advice from this forum in terms of what to do next.

We have completed our health screening, IELTS and police checks, in addition to everything else we have mentioned. We were expecting an acceptance letter within 8 to 11 months, which was the stated processing time.

So if ANMAC had given my girlfriend a score of 80 and deemed her suitable for a 189 visa, and a subsequent EOI had been issued, how can the immigration department go against the professional opinion of the Nursing governing body, which they have instructed to provide the assessment?
Can an individual person in IMMI make the unilateral decision we don't have the skills and have no right to appeal or ask for a second option? Could they have made a mistake?

Overall, I think we have spent around £5,000 for the application, when considering the EOI, IELTS, Skills Assessment, Health Screening, Police checks and then the Visa itself. Funamentally, we would not have paid the £3,300 for the full visa application, and would not have opted for the 189, if the skills assessment had come back negative. Surely the assessment is in place to prevent this type of issue further downstream

We don’t want to hamper future chances of applying to the Australian government for a Visa, but we feel very harshly and unfairly treated right now. So we need to know our options, timeline and costs if we can indeed contest the decision.

We have 4 options as I see them are (or a combination 1,2 & 3 or 4):
1)	Take legal advice
2)	Try to get some refund as it costs about £3.5K just for that element of the application (1424 refund form?)
3)	Reapply in October when she passes the next experience threshold at 3 years and I add my 5 points from a skills assessment
4)	Apply in my name but that will take just as long

Can anyone offer any guidance or offer any information as to whether this has happened before, is it common, and what was the outcome(s)?

Thanks

Ian


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

I have never had anything to do with ANMAC, however I am consfused as to why ANMAC would assess your points? Usually with skilled migration the assessing authority does not give you any indication of points. Their purpose is to assess your skills. The EOI is purely up to the individual to complete correctly. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly? Also, what does your points breakdown look like? To go from 80 down to 60 is a major jump. This cannot purely be due to work experience points.


----------



## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

pcdfrost said:


> I have never had anything to do with ANMAC, however I am consfused as to why ANMAC would assess your points? Usually with skilled migration the assessing authority does not give you any indication of points. Their purpose is to assess your skills. The EOI is purely up to the individual to complete correctly. Maybe I am not understanding you correctly? Also, what does your points breakdown look like? To go from 80 down to 60 is a major jump. This cannot purely be due to work experience points.


Many skills assessing authorities also assess employment claims against the nominated occupation for points testing purposes - but they all have a disclaimer that delegates from DHA have the final say regarding the awarding of points.


----------



## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

Very sorry to hear that Ian. 

Most skills assessing authorities only consider post-qualification experience as relevant for points tested purposes (unless you are substituting experience for formal qualifications - which some occupation codes and assessing authorities allow).

If ANMAC said 2.5 years of experience is valid to claim points, then that is 0 points as you need a minimum of 36 months of offshore experience. 

A HCA is not a surgical nurse, so naturally DHA would not consider that experience, especially if that was pre-qualification or part of the qualification placement. 

Has your partner maximised their English language points? That's an avenue, plus picking up 5 points when she crosses 36 months, and your partner points - that should take you to 70 points at least, and +10 if Superior English is still an option to then 80. 

Very sorry for the situation you are in. I would suggest having a MARA agent looking over your application before lodging it the second time (a visa refusal might have its own implications too that they will be aware of). 

Where else did they deduct points and with what reason?

Edit:

A refund is unlikely (usually it is in cases where a partner has died for example) - but no harm trying. 

Reading 189/190/489 AAT decisions that affirm visa refusals by DHA, this is the most common reason for visa refusals (overclaiming points), second and related being folks getting evidence to substantiate their EOI claims after an invitation (eg a positive skills assessment or English test date after their invitation date).

Career progression is from the nominated occupation forward, eg Surgical Nurse to Senior Surgical Nurse to Head Surgical Nurse. Not building to that nominated occupation - whereas if that was the case - where would you draw the line in claiming points.


----------



## himsrj (May 1, 2018)

Just check your refusal letter if it says that this result will have effect on future visa applications or if it says of any kinda ban.

Get one consultant on your side.

Final points are to be awarded by DHA must be mentioned in your assessment letter. 

You have overclaimed points which is reason for rejection. Any of you can apply if no ban is there just that in your spouse case, visa rejection might delay overall time.
You can try for refund as you have not given any false information just stick to that it was human mistake, happens now and then.

Below are some cases for ref 

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...nt-subclass-189-visa-refused-help-needed.html


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...a/348417-189-visa-refused-seeking-advice.html


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

PrettyIsotonic said:


> Many skills assessing authorities also assess employment claims against the nominated occupation for points testing purposes - but they all have a disclaimer that delegates from DHA have the final say regarding the awarding of points.


Learned something new today.


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

PrettyIsotonic said:


> Many skills assessing authorities also assess employment claims against the nominated occupation for points testing purposes - but they all have a disclaimer that delegates from DHA have the final say regarding the awarding of points.


Do they also give an indication of your overall points? Was just strange that they would indicate to them they qualify for 80 points overall.


----------



## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

pcdfrost said:


> Do they also give an indication of your overall points? Was just strange that they would indicate to them they qualify for 80 points overall.


I'm not sure if they explicitly count your points for you, but it is implicit. 

E.g. ACS says XYZ employment episodes after date deemed skilled is a the required skill level and in or closely related to the nominated occupation. 

This is now often part of the whole migration skills assessment piece for many skills assessing authority's - an exception that comes to mind is Engineers Australia - where if you want that service you have to opt for it: RSEA - Relevant Skilled Employment Advice.

In the past this was the case with VETASSESS - but now PTA (Points Tested Advice) is part of the whole shebang.

Edit:

I'm unfamiliar with ANMAC, but regardless if they stated the applicant was eligible for X points or not - I would have expected the standard disclosure that a delegate from DHA (the Minister) would have the final say regarding the awarding of points. This is so in the Migration Regulations.


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

PrettyIsotonic said:


> I'm not sure if they explicitly count your points for you, but it is implicit.
> 
> E.g. ACS says XYZ employment episodes after date deemed skilled is a the required skill level and in or closely related to the nominated occupation.
> 
> ...


I miss understood you inital post then. I am familiar with the process you described, as well as EA process as I have gone through that myself. The confusion for me was the initial post which indicated that ANMAC had scored them at 80 points. As per usual process the assessing authority would give an indication on the skills assessment and relevant work experience, but will usually never give any form of advice or indication as to points that can be claimed. Most authorities do make a clear point of this. It would be helpful to get a breakdown of the points as it seems very strange that one would go from 80 down to 60 with an assessment which was not correcly assessed by an authority.


----------



## azerty (Jan 22, 2016)

Is it possible the OP misread ANMAC's letter? They probably accepted her skills assessment and her 2.5 years experience as a Surgical nurse.

But the post gets a bit muddled when he talked about her HCA experience but the OP hasn't actually said that ANMAC accepted her HCA experience as relevant.



pcdfrost said:


> PrettyIsotonic said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure if they explicitly count your points for you, but it is implicit.
> ...


----------



## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

pcdfrost said:


> I miss understood you inital post then. I am familiar with the process you described, as well as EA process as I have gone through that myself. The confusion for me was the initial post which indicated that ANMAC had scored them at 80 points. As per usual process the assessing authority would give an indication on the skills assessment and relevant work experience, but will usually never give any form of advice or indication as to points that can be claimed. Most authorities do make a clear point of this. It would be helpful to get a breakdown of the points as it seems very strange that one would go from 80 down to 60 with an assessment which was not correcly assessed by an authority.


ANMAC positively assessed 2.5 years of post qualification experience as valid for claiming points, but since that is below 36 months of offside experience, it is worth zero points - OP has claimed points for multiple years of being a HCA (before the surgical nurse qualification) - which is why DHA gave it no points. A HCA is definitely not a surgical nurse. 

Not sure how OP landed on 80 points. Perhaps OP overclaimed / misclaimed points elsewhere too. E.g. OP claims they were issued with a EOI - sounds like a agent gone wrong - but that's just me speculating. 

To your point, and to reiterate, skills assessing authorities will never state the number of points that can be claimed explicitly, but it is implicit: they will state XYZ episode after ABC date is employment closely related to the nominated occupation (the crucial factor for points purposes) and eligible for points. 

That is their points test advice. Of course they all have a disclaimer that DHA has the final say in the legislative awarding of those points. 

Tl;dr ANMAC gave points test advice that 2.5 years can be claimed for points, which equals to zero points according to the points table. OP misclaimed pre-qualification points and someplace else if they lodged an EOI with 80 points that was reduced to 60 by DHA during processing.


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

PrettyIsotonic said:


> To your point, and to reiterate, skills assessing authorities will never state the number of points that can be claimed explicitly, but it is implicit: they will state XYZ episode after ABC date is employment closely related to the nominated occupation (the crucial factor for points purposes) and eligible for points.


100% Agree with you. What I was trying to indicate is that your authority would not indicate to you the total points you are able to claim. As you have pointed out, your assessing authority would give you an indication if your skills are in line with those of the occupation you are being assessed in as well as which employment periods are relevant to that specific occupation. It sounds to me as if the points claimed on the EOI was not in line with the outcome of the Skills Assessment. It would be helpful to see the breakdown of points claimed so that it can be compared to that of the Skills Assessment.


----------



## ozzzy (Aug 1, 2018)

Just to clarify,
In my assessment, I got a clear advise on how many years are acceptable (i.e 8 years) despite my experience is more than that. 

Does your assessment letter states anything like this ? 

The letter consists of two sections, first confirms that you are having or not the skills as you claim (in my case assessment was yes you are cons. Manager), second part says out of claimed 10 years said you are qualified for 8 years.

So the letter states this explicitly.

How was your case?

Regards


----------



## DavidFontaine (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't understand the confusion. Cearly a HCA is not a surgical nurse, and it seems fair enough that the assessing authority came to the same conclusion. Your girlfriend has been a qualified Surgical Nurse for 2.5 years, and therefore this is all she can claim. I guess it's unfortunate that you were led to believe that she could claim a part of her degree as work experience and also that some of the work as a HCA counted but I agree with the final outcome.


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

Thank you - that's a great piece of advice. We have maxed out with superior English and now to get to 70 points we need to get my partner skills and wait until we have 3 years experience. Its just annoying that we got the EOI based on the assessment of ANMAC. By discounting 10 years of HCA work, we went down from 80 to 60 points.

The Australian Nursing & Midwifery Accreditation Council (ANMAC) has completed the assessment
of your qualifications and experience based on the documentation provided. Your skills have been
assessed as suitable for migration for the nominated occupation of 254424 Registered Nurse
(Surgical).
Please note: This assessment does not guarantee registration with the Australian Health Practitioner
Regulation Agency (AHPRA) and you should contact AHPRA directly for further advice.
This determination is valid for migration purposes for two years commencing 2/7/2018.
This letter was issued by ANMAC in Canberra on 2/7/2018.


----------



## ozzzy (Aug 1, 2018)

If this is the full text, I am sorry to say, they are right,

Unlike Vetassess (my certification body) they did not advise on how many years are counted, in my case I had an explicit statement on accepted time and how deductions (with reasoning), below is from my assessment, you can see they calculated 8 years, 

"POINTS TEST ADVICE
The following claims of skilled employment made by the applicant are assessed as employment of at least 20 hours
per week which is at an appropriate skill level and closely related to the nominated occupation of Construction Project
Manager (ANZSCO Code: 133111):
1. From XXX to XXX, Project Manager, XXX, XXX
2. From XXX to XXX, Senior Projects Manager, XXX, XXX
Date deemed skilled for Points Test Advice:2/2010
Number of years assessed positively: 8.6
The following claims of skilled employment made by the applicant have not been included in the above calculation:
1. From XXX to XXX, XXX, XXX, XXX
2. From XXX to XXX, Project Manager, XXX, XXX
as:
the tasks undertaken are not closely related to the ANZSCO tasks for the nominated occupation
(Employment 1)
the employment was used to calculate the qualifying period required to meet the skill level of the nominated
or closely related ANZSCO occupation (Employment 2)
This advice is the opinion of VETASSESS and does not guarantee the awarding of any points under the skilled"

I wish you good luck on your new application, try to get such kind of statement from the assessor, 

Sorry to hear your frustration


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

This is the EOI from the DHA:
11 Jul 2018
Dear XXXXX
SkillSelect invitation
Thank you for submitting an Expression of Interest (EOI) in SkillSelect for Skilled Migration to Australia.
You are invited to apply for a 189 (PTS) visa. This invitation and the points score have been issued on the basis of the
information you provided in your EOI. The Department has not yet assessed the claims in your EOI.
Being invited to apply for a visa does not guarantee that you will be able to make a valid visa application or that an
application will be successful. Most skilled visas have requirements that must be satisfied at the date of invitation for a visa
application to succeed.
Your invitation is valid for 60 calendar days from the date of this letter. It enables you to satisfy one of the requirements for
making a valid application for a 189 (PTS) visa, provided the application is lodged on or before 09 Sep 2018.
As an invitation has been issued, this EOI is now locked and cannot be amended. If you need to amend this EOI, you can do
so when it unlocks after 60 calendar days or, alternatively, you can create a new EOI. This invitation cannot be transferred to
any other EOI.
Your invitation:
EOI ID: Ennnnnnnnnn
Visa Subclass: 189
Nominated occupation: Registered Nurse (Surgical)
Stream: Points-Tested Stream
Indicative Points test score: 80
A visa application can be made by: 09 Sep 2018
If you proceed to lodge a visa application you must provide documentary evidence of the claims made in your EOI as well
as other supporting information. If information within your EOI is incorrect, any visa application you make may be
unsuccessful.
Refer to 189 (PTS) visa requirements on our website at xxxxx
If you are unable to provide the required documentary evidence in support of an application for a 189 (PTS) visa you have
the option of letting this invitation lapse and revising your EOI when it is unlocked. Alternatively you can submit another
EOI.

Skilled Independent visa (subclass 189) (Points-Tested Stream) document checklist
Upload all required documentation in ImmiAccount as soon as possible after applying. Documents uploaded through
ImmiAccount will appear in your application details page. You can log into ImmiAccount at any time to check which
documents you have uploaded and what remains outstanding.
Applications submitted without the required supporting documentation will experience longer processing times. The
department is not required to request further documents before making a decision on your application.
Yours sincerely
SkillSelect
(This invitation has been issued on behalf of the Minister for Home Affairs)


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

This is the IMMI 6D points decision:
Your Score Summary
Qualification Primary Applicant
Age 25
English language 20
Overseas employment experience 0
Australian employment experience 0
Aggregating points for employment experience 0
Australian professional year 0
Educational 15
Specialist education qualification 0
Australian study 0
Credentialed community language 0
Study in regional Australia or a low-population growth
metropolitan area
0
Partner skill 0
State or territory nomination -
Designated Area sponsorship -
TOTAL 60
The


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

Yes, they haver basically rejected all experience prior to the degree, including the 4 years of on the job placement and training which is part of the degree


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

ANMAC are the assessing authority used by DHA for Skills Assessment

They scored 80 as the counted previous experience, IMMI scored 60 as they declined the pre-degree experience


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

Exactly - but what is the point in paying for a Skills Assessment and getting a point score from the Nursing Governing Body, when IMMI then rescore and reject their professional opinion?

They do have a disclaimer which is a cop out of:

The assessment has been made based on the following items of evidence:
· Academic transcripts and or syllabus information from the relevant institution;
· Copy of the qualification
· Evidence of work experience
This advice is in the opinion of ANMAC and does not guarantee the awarding of any points under the skilled migration points test. Determination of points under the skilled migration points test remains at the discretion of delegated officers of the Department of Home Affairs.

Also, in the Skill Assessment detailed report:
You are invited to apply for a 189 (PTS) visa. This invitation and the points score have been issued on the basis of the information you provided in your EOI. The Department has not yet assessed the claims in your EOI.
Being invited to apply for a visa does not guarantee that you will be able to make a valid visa application or that an application will be successful. Most skilled visas have requirements that must be satisfied at the date of invitation for a visa application to succeed.


----------



## JG (Mar 22, 2017)

jonesi100 said:


> ANMAC are the assessing authority used by DHA for Skills Assessment
> 
> They scored 80 as the counted previous experience, IMMI scored 60 as they declined the pre-degree experience


maximum points for experience is 15 how can you come from 80 to 60 ?


----------



## jonesi100 (Jan 22, 2018)

Thank you - that is what we will do. We will suggest the either ANMAC or IMMI have made a human mistake and as such we should not have to pay the application fee. If the EOI had been scored correctly, then we would not have applied.
There was no ban imposed as we haven't provided any false information


----------



## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

How many years did ANMAC say was relevant? Also, did you make use of any immigration afent?


----------



## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

pcdfrost said:


> 100% Agree with you. What I was trying to indicate is that your authority would not indicate to you the total points you are able to claim. As you have pointed out, your assessing authority would give you an indication if your skills are in line with those of the occupation you are being assessed in as well as which employment periods are relevant to that specific occupation. It sounds to me as if the points claimed on the EOI was not in line with the outcome of the Skills Assessment. It would be helpful to see the breakdown of points claimed so that it can be compared to that of the Skills Assessment.


Cheers same here - Ian has kindly shared more info (below)



jonesi100 said:


> This is the EOI from the DHA:
> 11 Jul 2018
> Dear XXXXX
> SkillSelect invitation
> ...


Ian thank you for remaining in this thread despite the outcome you received.

For the record, the EOI is not generated by ANMAC / DHA automatically.

It is applicants (or their agents) who put forward an EOI with points claims. With the info you have shared, your partner could only claim 2.5 years for employment experience, which equals zero points (as you need a minimum of 36 months of non-Australian experience in your nominated occupation after your skilled met date to claim 5 points). 

Applicants can claim 80, 90, 100 points - and DHA will invite them, but if applicants are unable to prove their points claims as valid as of the date of invitation, their visa will be refused for over claiming points. 



jonesi100 said:


> Yes, they haver basically rejected all experience prior to the degree, including the 4 years of on the job placement and training which is part of the degree


Most, if not all skills assessing authorities will only consider experience in your relevant nominated occupation or a closely related occupation (i.e. same ANZSCO unit group) from post qualification. 

This is standard and completely fair. A software engineer will not be able to claim points for being an auxiliary software engineering worker during their software engineering study or prior to their formal software engineering qualifications. In fact, for the Australian Computer Society, all applicants have their first 2 years of post-qualification working experience deducted and ineligible for points claims purposes. 

Some skills assessing authorities accept experience in your nominated occupation or a closely related occupation in lieu of formal qualifications. So for the sake of an example, if your partner was a surgical nurse (not a HCA) before her nursing qualifications for 5 years, some skills assessing authorities will use those 5 years as a substitute for a nursing qualification, and consider experience post those 5 years as potentially relevant for points. 




jonesi100 said:


> ANMAC are the assessing authority used by DHA for Skills Assessment
> 
> They scored 80 as the counted previous experience, IMMI scored 60 as they declined the pre-degree experience


Again, ANMAC has deemed you eligible for 0 points (2.5 years of post qualification experience) - yet you have claimed points - not sure how, or why - but it is an error. 



jonesi100 said:


> Exactly - but what is the point in paying for a Skills Assessment and getting a point score from the Nursing Governing Body, when IMMI then rescore and reject their professional opinion?
> 
> They do have a disclaimer which is a cop out of:
> 
> ...


As you can see:
"This invitation and the points score have been issued on the basis of the information you provided in your EOI. The Department has not yet assessed the claims in your EOI.

Being invited to apply for a visa does not guarantee that you will be able to make a valid visa application or that an application will be successful. Most skilled visas have requirements that must be satisfied at the date of invitation for a visa application to succeed."

The disclaimer is not a cop out - it is a legislative reality - and is enshrined in the Migration Regulations. 

Personally, I feel DHA delegating skills assessments to industry bodies is an example of the openness of the migration system in Australia. Yes, DHA retain the final authority, but they have made it policy to leave the assessment of skills in skilled migration to assessing authority's that would be most intimately aware of the specific requirements for someone to be skilled in a specific ANZSCO code or group. 

DHA also has a higher bar in verifying the authenticity of skilled employment claims, e.g. skills assessing authorities rarely verify employment, DHA is able to conduct physical / email / phone / a whole host of other verification (e.g. facial recognition technology). 

Unfortunately you were not successful as you were unable to meet the above requirements. 



jonesi100 said:


> Thank you - that is what we will do. We will suggest the either ANMAC or IMMI have made a human mistake and as such we should not have to pay the application fee. If the EOI had been scored correctly, then we would not have applied.
> There was no ban imposed as we haven't provided any false information


I hope you are able to at least understand where you and your partner have made a mistake - at the end of the day a MARA agent will have the most accurate advice. There too, like nurses and doctors, there are some MARA agents who are better than others, a second opinion won't hurt either. 

Edit:

To reiterate, a EOI is scored by you / your agent - nobody else (and in this instance it has been scored incorrectly based on the ANMAC results you shared). DHA sends an invite based on EOI claims (emphasis on 'claims'). Then EOI claims are then verified by DHA during visa processing. 

All the best


----------



## ozzzy (Aug 1, 2018)

Hi,

Just to clarify does the assessing body says anywhere in their conclusion that your experience is deemed to be greater than 8 years ? 

That is the key question

I am a little confused with your statement, EOI is claimed by you, if you put 10 years it is 10 years, but you need to provide supporting document of it, which is assessment from the body, stating that you have 10 years.

Regards


----------

