# Ruin/ Poor condition renovation



## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

Hello all, sorry if this has been posted but can't find anywhere.

I'm moving to Spain in September. I'm buying a house, half cash half mortgage.

Ideally I would have liked to build from scratch so as to have own stamp on it, but have decided the renovation of a cortijo is perhaps the best middle ground.

I'm wondering has anyone been through this process before ? Are there pitfalls ? Can anyone comment on the legalities of renovations, as in, like in most countries it's fairly relaxed so long as you build in the original footprint of the building ?

If the property is unsafe for renovation can I knock the whole thing and replace with a new build , within same footprint of course? Or is it classified as a new build instead of a renovation. 

Any advice at all would be great. 

I'm buying around malaga province. 

As a guide, looking to buy a roughly 140 sqm cortijo and completely renovate it, I mean, the whole thing, for 120k on top, so 240k roughly all in . 

Is this doable ? 

As I said any advice at all is greatly appreciated, 

Hasta pronto, 
Ciao 
Bw


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Relaxed? Spain? Umfffff!!!. Plenty of certificates and stuff needed. They are very strict about things.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I have no experience with this at all. But I can recommend I book I recently read in which they did exactly what you're asking about. The book is called The Crinkle Crankle Wall, by Sabina Ostrowska. In the memoir a British couple buy an old stone cottage which is virtually in ruins in the middle of the countryside in Andalucia, and they renovate it and turn it into a B&B. It's an easy read and it'd give you a good idea of what you'd be getting into. IMO an undertaking like this is not for the faint of heart. Spain is notorious for its never-ending paperwork and bureaucracy!!


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

My wife and I are considering buying a farmhouse in the mountains. it is over a kilometer from the nearest neighbor. If we buy it, we will be doing renovations. Last week, I met with the permitting department of the local ayuntamiento to see if our proposed renovations will be permitted. They will get back to me in the next week or two. 

My advice-Don´t buy anything unless you have first talked to the ayuntamiento.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

It really does depend on the attitude of the Ayuntamiento. They have a ridiculous amount of discretionary power over what is and isn't permitted. Definitely a good idea to get them onside before you sign the contract!


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

My FIL wanted to replace the roof on the pool pump room as it was broken and leaking and extend the room slightly to put garden tools in. 
He went to see about a permit, with the builder who had the plans etc.
They refused as it made the buildings about two square metres larger than allowed on his plot. 
He then asked if they would ok just the roof and an open area for the tools, they said no again because they thought he would just brick it in later.

Some friends moved to an old 1970's villa before Christmas and they are renovating this, they got permissions last week.
They had to submit architects plans, material costs, labour costs and the number of local trades they would employ to do the work. They were originally going to do the demolition themselves to save money but are now not allowed. Oh they are Scandinavian not Brits in case someone says its only us that have to follow the rules..

The Ayuntamiento are sending someone to check each stage of the renovation as well, something the builder said is happening more and more these days, he is Spanish and has been a builder for over 30 years (it also seems that finally Spain are beginning to take notice of environmental issues and insulation) as they asked him for details of the materials he would be using.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Things might change under the new LISTA regulations that came out this month. I haven’t found out what changes ( if any) apply to our rural buildings.

Two local experiences. Permission granted but old house had to be taken down to window cill height. The new to be built on top and because it was a typical old place it didn’t have proper foundations. So it needed under pinning..
the second was a similar set of permissions but the builder took the walls down and laid a pad , changed the orientation and then part of the old wall was “ stuck” on the bricks on part of one side. I happened to be walking by with the dog when the Ayto architect was “ inspecting progress. He was out mountain biking and i didn’t recognise him till I was next in the Ayto with a Spanish friend seeking permission for a tractor shed ( refused) . That build was stopped and is the same ten years later - even got unused pallets of bricks.

my view is Spain doesnt want people living in the country.. water, electric, sewage and internet are difficult to provide along with rubbish collection, school buses etc. Internet might improve with rollout of 5G with the EU free money but that is a separate story.

Definitely go to the Ayto first before buying. Has the property got mains water? Bore holes can dry up. Andalucia will get more desert not less in the future.

one final point on permissions. If you are going to do the work yourself, when you apply for permissions include builders labour costsand their margin not just the cost of the raw materials.

Hope that hasn’t put you off. Living in the campo is brilliant for nature, avoiding epidemics and so on.


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

na


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

kaipa said:


> Relaxed? Spain? Umfffff!!!. Plenty of certificates and stuff needed. They are very strict about things.


Thanks, I understand the bureaucracy can be a lot in Spain, but in general if you play by the rules and are patient are they generally ok to deal with?
For example, Im from Ireland and we have our own level of bureaucracy especially in rural areas. The local councils (ayuntamientos) are only useful for processing your paperwork. By that I mean, they are very unhelpful with providing information, if you dont get what you want they don't really say why just that the application has been denied etc.


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

kalohi said:


> I have no experience with this at all. But I can recommend I book I recently read in which they did exactly what you're asking about. The book is called The Crinkle Crankle Wall, by Sabina Ostrowska. In the memoir a British couple buy an old stone cottage which is virtually in ruins in the middle of the countryside in Andalucia, and they renovate it and turn it into a B&B. It's an easy read and it'd give you a good idea of what you'd be getting into. IMO an undertaking like this is not for the faint of heart. Spain is notorious for its never-ending paperwork and bureaucracy!!


 thanks so much i'll check it out for sure


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

olivefarmer said:


> Things might change under the new LISTA regulations that came out this month. I haven’t found out what changes ( if any) apply to our rural buildings.
> 
> Two local experiences. Permission granted but old house had to be taken down to window cill height. The new to be built on top and because it was a typical old place it didn’t have proper foundations. So it needed under pinning..
> the second was a similar set of permissions but the builder took the walls down and laid a pad , changed the orientation and then part of the old wall was “ stuck” on the bricks on part of one side. I happened to be walking by with the dog when the Ayto architect was “ inspecting progress. He was out mountain biking and i didn’t recognise him till I was next in the Ayto with a Spanish friend seeking permission for a tractor shed ( refused) . That build was stopped and is the same ten years later - even got unused pallets of bricks.
> ...


thanks so much, can I ask what are these LISTA regulations i ran it through google and found nothing. 

ideally I would like to do a new build but have been told not to bother as the fees associated with acquisition of land/ setting up water/electricity/ then the actual build- are way out of my budget of approx 240k. From your experience would you agree with that? Just for reference, i'm looking for a decent size ( about quarter to half acre) plot of land within 30 mins to malaga city to build a house of approx 120m2. 

For me the idea of buying a ruin/near ruin is more so for having a piece of land which at some point should have had plans/utilities attached to it in the hope that it is easier to bring up to a liveable/legal condition (as opposed to building new). So, the condition/quality of the old property is not that important to me. I'd even be open to knocking the whole thing down and rebuilding in the original footprint if that was possible. 

the reason I ask is because in ireland, there are lots of old farmhouses close to collapse, in some cases, because the building is structurally unsound, you can raze them to the ground and rebuild so long as you stay with the original footprint and volume of the original house. I'd like to do something like that.

i really appreciate your advice especially about future proofing the bore holes, I think this whole global warming thing is going to be more pronounced and immediate than people think. 

as an aside, do you know if, once you own property are you able to build small outhouses/sheds without planning permission? Again, bringing it back to ireland, and i think its similar in UK, you are able to build an outhouse/shed so long as its under 25m2 without permission. Do you know if something similar exists in spain?

thanks so much for your time and advice


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

timwip said:


> My wife and I are considering buying a farmhouse in the mountains. it is over a kilometer from the nearest neighbor. If we buy it, we will be doing renovations. Last week, I met with the permitting department of the local ayuntamiento to see if our proposed renovations will be permitted. They will get back to me in the next week or two.
> 
> My advice-Don´t buy anything unless you have first talked to the ayuntamiento.


oh please do let me know how you get on....

Thanks for that advice, are they generally quick/good/responsive to deal with?

Can I ask, did you already buy the property then apply to ayuntamiento (in which case what will happen if its rejected- I really hope its not)? Or did you go sale agreed (not put any money down) and then apply? meaning, if it is rejected you can still hand the property back without losing your money. 

my worry is, I find my ideal property, I then enquire to the ayuntamientos, the process takes too long, then the property is sold. Or how do you get around this?

thanks so much for your time and advice


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> It really does depend on the attitude of the Ayuntamiento. They have a ridiculous amount of discretionary power over what is and isn't permitted. Definitely a good idea to get them onside before you sign the contract!


thanks so much, the ayuntas will definitely be my first stop


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

Barriej said:


> My FIL wanted to replace the roof on the pool pump room as it was broken and leaking and extend the room slightly to put garden tools in.
> He went to see about a permit, with the builder who had the plans etc.
> They refused as it made the buildings about two square metres larger than allowed on his plot.
> He then asked if they would ok just the roof and an open area for the tools, they said no again because they thought he would just brick it in later.
> ...


wow, great eye opener. thanks so much, It seems very similar to Ireland if I'm honest. You look at some buildings and you think how on earth did they get permission for that monstrosity, then you hear of people being denied permission for a 2m2 porch. Cheers,


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Brian_Watson said:


> wow, great eye opener. thanks so much, It seems very similar to Ireland if I'm honest. You look at some buildings and you think how on earth did they get permission for that monstrosity, then you hear of people being denied permission for a 2m2 porch. Cheers,


I think a lot of the changes here in Spain are due to all the bad press regarding all the illegal builds over the years.

Something to read and to check when you look at a place to ensure its legal and the land its on is not rustic and can be redeveloped. Building on the wrong type of land still goes on today.









Two decades later, thousands of Marbella homes still in a legal limbo


Around 18,000 properties were built irregularly under former mayor Jesús Gil, but despite numerous court cases that canceled permits, chances are good they will never be torn down




english.elpais.com






https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/03/12/torn-down-illegal-homes-in-spains-andalucia-targeted-for-demolition/



We have some around here and there is a block of flats that was built as a hotel and operated without licence or permission for years. It was only legalised when converted to flats.


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

Some of those examples are probably old.

A search on google gives all the new regs/laws passed in December; but only concerning andalucia - lista *andalucia*


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Brian_Watson said:


> oh please do let me know how you get on....
> 
> Thanks for that advice, are they generally quick/good/responsive to deal with?
> 
> ...


Here is the proper way to do things-
1-Come to an agreement on the sale price of the property with the owner.
2-Get a lawyer to draw up a pre-contract. Basically, you pay the owner somewhere between 1 and 4% of the sale price (non-refundable) and they will not even the show the property for a 30-60 day period. The % and timeframe are negotiable. This will then give you time to get the financing and permitting in order. At anytime you can back out of the deal, you just lose the money. 
3-If the deal does go through, the money paid counts toward your purchase price.

With respect to dealing with the ayuntamientos, it is probably hard to make generalizations. However, in my case, I met with the permitting lady last Wednesday and presented the plans. She said she would get back to me in a week or two. Yesterday, she called me and said that the improvements I am proposing will be permitted. However, on the property are three historic structures that must stay in place: a well, an horreo (granary), an horno (stone building used for baking bread). The problem is that the stone building does not currently exist. Now I need to figure out the proper procedures to document this so that I will not get a fine for removing a historic structure.


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

timwip said:


> Here is the proper way to do things-
> 1-Come to an agreement on the sale price of the property with the owner.
> 2-Get a lawyer to draw up a pre-contract. Basically, you pay the owner somewhere between 1 and 4% of the sale price (non-refundable) and they will not even the show the property for a 30-60 day period. The % and timeframe are negotiable. This will then give you time to get the financing and permitting in order. At anytime you can back out of the deal, you just lose the money.
> 3-If the deal does go through, the money paid counts toward your purchase price.
> ...



wow, this is invaluable information. Thank you so much, congratulations on receiving your permission, well done. 
from reading through your and others advice it definitely seems possible, maybe not easy, but definitely possible. Thanks again.


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

tardigrade said:


> Some of those examples are probably old.
> 
> A search on google gives all the new regs/laws passed in December; but only concerning andalucia - lista *andalucia*


perfect, I have my heart set on Andalucia so that will be great. Thanks so much.


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## Brian_Watson (Jun 1, 2014)

Barriej said:


> I think a lot of the changes here in Spain are due to all the bad press regarding all the illegal builds over the years.
> 
> Something to read and to check when you look at a place to ensure its legal and the land its on is not rustic and can be redeveloped. Building on the wrong type of land still goes on today.
> 
> ...


Gracias, thank you very much. I will arrive in Malaga on Thursday morn and have set up a meeting with 'my' solicitor/ legal person just to make sure, as you say, the type of land/property I am looking for is suitable e.g urbanizable/ no urbanizable.. thanks again.


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## saganaki (10 mo ago)

How did you get on Brian? Planning on buying my own ruin in Galicia. As per your experience, go first to the concello to find out how the town architect is interpreting the rules.


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## AnthonyAndalucia (8 mo ago)

Hi Brian. Did your plans need to be drawn up by an architect for the pre-contract ayuntamiento approval btw? 
I'm just wondering how realistic a 30-60 day window would be in order to:

1) Source the architect
2) Agree on the plans
3) Finalize the plans
4) Book and conduct ayuntamiento appointment (I suppose booking could be done further in advance)
5) Await ayuntamiento decision


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## Goatherd (Feb 19, 2010)

Number one... Get an architect, they are not cheap, but 100% necessary, and they will do all the negotiating for you with the local junta.
Invariable many problems are caused by the local registry plans not in alignment with the catastral plans and can vary by as much as 50%, these problems all have to be sorted out with YOU paying for all these monumental cockups by the junta. Plus they are changing the rules all the time. I have just sold my cortijo in Andalucia, Alpujarra so far its taken nearly 6 months for paper work and I reckon another month to go....that's the problem with campo properties...


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