# Foriegner Homicide Rate



## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

I am a numbers guy and when looking into the actual numbers regarding how prevalent serious crime was against foreigners I was surprised at the dearth of actual numbers out there. Lots of stories of some guy, somewhere who was murdered, not much for details, lots of claims that “many” murders here of foreigners go unreported, again no verifiable information to back that up.

I did find a few interesting web sites.

Philippines vs United States Crime Stats Compared

On this site I did find that the reported crimes in almost all categories, except murder, were significantly higher than in the US. Note I did say reported since I am sure that there is a significant underreporting of non-fatal crimes here due to the simple fact that the police will not investigate on their own but need to be pushed to look into a crime. I would also imagine that the conservative religious culture here will result in rape victims being reluctant to report rapes due to victim shaming.

However homicide is a crime that is difficult to hide, one that is almost always reported and one that is generally defined the same worldwide. It is generally the most reliable point of comparison across various jurisdictions.

In the Philippines the overall homicide rate is about 25% higher than in the US (6.4 vs 5). Homicides by gun is also a much higher number here than in the US. This is all years, you can refine searches by specific years with 2014 being last year available.

However when you get to crimes against foreigners, the data is a lot harder to come by. I could not find any reliable numbers on crimes against foreigners with a breakdown of the numbers of crimes against expats residents vs tourists. ( I would think that the use of long term tourist visa renewals would distort this somewhat as well even if the numbers did exist.)

The US government does have a site that lists all non-natural deaths by Americans in all countries. It is a searchable data base and you can get a breakdown by any date range you input. Data goes back to Oct 2002. I do have a significant level of trust in these numbers as there would be no incentive for the US government to cover up deaths of Americans abroad and plenty of incentive for them to get this database correct and accurate.

https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...le-abroad/death-abroad1/death-statistics.html


In the 3 years ending June 2018 there were 58 non-natural deaths of Americans here. 27 or 47% were homicide, 24 or 41% were accidents of one sort, including drowning, vehicle etc. and there were 7 (12%) suicides.

Now over the last 3 years ending in 2017, Americans were steady at 14.5% of all tourists. Assuming that the risks to all tourists are the same for all Americans we get an expected murder rate of 3.1 per 100,000 visitors to the Philippines. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_the_Philippines

With an average length of stay of 10 nights we get an annualized homicide rate of foreigners in the Philippines of about 112 per 100,000 visitor years here.

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That puts the Philippines at higher homicide rate than El Salvador (82.8 in 2016) which is the highest in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate 

I know lots of assumptions and extrapolations here, no analysis of types of homicides but it is looking like the bottom line is that the Philippines is a pretty dangerous place or foreigners, especially those that engage in risky behaviors that put them at risk for violent crime.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Walk softly but always carry a big stick.

Many Aussies and I presume other nationalities go to party in many Asian countries, not just the Philippines for fun, sex and many other callings that may suit their needs. Let's not go there.
Only an observation but if you are a genuine visitor/tourist you are safe generally no different to me dropping into Michigan or Chicago or god love us, a tourist in Sydney and most are short term so very safe.

Longer term as a foreign resident/long term visa holder one is exposed to intricate social and yes economical persuasions that affect relationships within the community one chooses to live, security and the longevity of a peaceful retirement/longer stay in any country and again only my opinion comes back to the acceptance of the country, the residents of that country, respect for their culture and norms. A little humility goes a long way

Flouting wealth, arrogance, (ignorance is no excuse when dead, only a pastime excuse for those in the grave and for those left behind) and a flagrant disregard to any country and a slowly evolved pride (that rivals my home country) could be the sorry end for many.

The figures offered up both in Manitobas post and the data/links supplied can easily be misconstrued and twisted no different to offering safe passage to an Eskimo visiting the Sahara or the Ice bar in many cities. No reflection on your input Manitoba but as I have found, with research, the more research one does on issues like this the more perplexing with the idiosyncrasies and the eventual discovery of,,, perhaps info aimed at certain/particular gullible persuasions to steer them elsewhere or severely overstate their perspective and perhaps sensationalism or underlying agendas, regardless, no matter the countries I have visited, lived or worked in or now wish to retire to I have always found that treating people with respect, dignity at every turn is reciprocal 

While I see where this is going and so many related threads on this and other sites, for me and yes,,,,,,,, yet again only my simple observation as a plebeian consider my choice of retirement will be to a safe and secure life within a country and culture with all it's idiosyncrasies that I chose above other options. Where I want to live and I dearly hope my attitude and aptitude will secure an enjoyable life.
If you are an A hole in Oz you will get what is coming, is it not the same in Alaska or Siberia for an Eskimo?

Cheers, Steve.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Well over 100 views and only one reply.

I had an error in the line about the relative safety between Philippine and the US.

I said “were significantly higher than in the US” when I should have said “were significantly higher in the US.” 

I actually started out looking at this thinking that the numbers would show that the Philippines was relatively safe compared to other places, when the opposite was shown.

I also looked at three other countries for the same period.

Thailand had 94 non-natural US deaths in the period but only 2 homicides. (Lots of suicides so perhaps some sort of official cover up??) Mexico had 741 non-natural deaths and 209 homicides while Canada had 42 non-natural deaths and 2 homicides.

Of course I have no breakdown on how these homicides occurred. Most homicides are one of 2 categories. Crime/drug/gang related. What are sometimes referred to as NHI (no humans involved) killings. Regular people seldom are harmed except as collateral damage. The second category is domestic violence. Family members killing each other. As long as you stay out of crime and stay away from abusive family members most people have little to fear in this category. In the west stranger killing stranger is actually somewhat uncommon.

Now I’ll admittedly be highly speculative but here I’d add two others categories that people should be concerned about. The first I’ll call crimes to save face. A simple road rage incident can become deadly due to the overriding need to save face and recover honour. This would also include love triangles. A foreigner could be hurt because he “stole” the wife or girlfriend of a local. Extreme poverty can make this much more deadly. If someone has nothing except his sense of worth or honour in the community then he has nothing to lose in becoming violent to regain it, He can even “profit” from it by being a respected person in jail because he stood up for his honour.

The second and it is related in poverty, is the extreme difference in wealth, perceived or actual, between a foreigner and a local. Someone who cannot feed his family may resort to violence against someone who flaunts wealth.

In both of these two cases a little common sense will mitigate the dangers. Don’t be disrespectful, don’t let a small conflict escalate, stay under the radar and don’t rub the disparity of wealth in their faces. 

However living in a secure place, being somewhat generous to the local beggars and street people, making friends of people in positions of power and influence in the community etc. will also help you to fit into the community and be safe.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
Of the US homicide rates - are these being skewed by school and other mass shootings? - that tend not to occur in other countries?
Cheers
Steve


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> Of the US homicide rates - are these being skewed by school and other mass shootings? - that tend not to occur in other countries?
> Cheers
> Steve


Not as much as you would think. 

As of 29 June there have been over 7,000 homicides in the USA in 2018. Only 40 of these were in mass shootings. (Please not that there is no really accepted universal definition of a mass shooting so depending on the definition used the statistics could vary significantly.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...america/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c356af70e30a


They get the majority of the publicity but homicide is so common in the US that it doesn't make the news unless more than one person is killed, they are famous, the killing is particular gruesome or the crime was committed by an illegal immigrant. In other words the only newsworthy homicides in the US are those that sell newspapers ( or clicks in the modern day) or can be politicized for some agenda.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

I wonder how many homicides in the Philippines become suicide due to lazy policing.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Gary D said:


> I wonder how many homicides in the Philippines become suicide due to lazy policing.


For the data that I looked at from the US state department there were only 7 listed suicides in the 3 year period. As I would expect that there would be some in that time frame, I'd say not too many were misallocated. (There were more than 2,000,000 US visits in that time remember)


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Thailand had more non-natural deaths but only 2 listed as homicides. There were more suicides listed ( I didn't count them) so I'd say that is more of a possibility in Thailand than here.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Manitoba said:


> Thailand had more non-natural deaths but only 2 listed as homicides. There were more suicides listed ( I didn't count them) so I'd say that is more of a possibility in Thailand than here.


Just remembering the american suicide found under his car in Angelese who had apparently shot himself in the head....... twice. Obviously the first shot didn't do the trick.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Gary D said:


> Just remembering the american suicide found under his car in Angelese who had apparently shot himself in the head....... twice. Obviously the first shot didn't do the trick.


It happens. Not every gunshot, even to the head is instantly fatal. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Gary D said:


> Just remembering the american suicide found under his car in Angelese who had apparently shot himself in the head....... twice. Obviously the first shot didn't do the trick.


Before I knew my wife she worked in the accounting department of a large, well known hotel in Angeles. We talked about this years ago and she told me that there are many foreign deaths in most all of the hotels there as well as Manila and other places where prostitution thrives because of foreigners.

Most she said were a reaction from fake Viagra resulting in a heart attack. After that, the next most common cause is homicide inflicted as a result robbery some caused by a drug overdose given by a hooker, The boyfriend of a girl (sometimes hookers boyfriend) as a get even reprisal for any number of reason. My wife also told me that a lot of deaths of foreign nationals in hotels are caused by the police themselves as they enforce a set-up involving usually an under age girl.

The hotels pay large sums of money to officials to dispose of the bodies and to keep silent about the deaths in their effort to maintain a good reputation. Hotels would lose a massive amount of business if it became known how many "guests" check in and don't live to check out.

It's not just hotels. Disagreements for any reasons here can get out of hand and result in a homicide. Locals for the most part have very little judgment and even less common sense and simply act on impulse as well as the get even at all cost principle. Fifteen years of living here have shown and taught me that no matter how you slice it or try to candy coat it , the Philippines *IS* an unforgiving, dangerous 3rd world country.


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## Danman (Mar 23, 2016)

I have lived in the Philippines permanent for many years, i only attend parties of close filipino friends and even then i have an Ex Army friend that goes with me for safety reasons, you dont have to brag about wealth or any thing to offend some Filipinos as some Filipinos have a natural dislike for foreigners in general. I have been in the company of filipnos attending birthday parties and social get togethers and filipinos who were drunk started raising their voices and yell abuse at me for no reason that is why now my ex army filipino mate goes with me. My wife has always told me be nice to filipinos but never trust too much as my safety comes first. wheather you are a tourist or permanent think safety first as not all filipinos are friendly towards foreigners


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## DonAndAbby (Jan 7, 2013)

Manitoba said:


> It happens. Not every gunshot, even to the head is instantly fatal.
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide


Ouch! That's gotta sting a bit!


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## JRB__NW (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for the research and your thoughts, Manitoba. It can indeed be worrisome when you read the news and hear stories. I have always exercised high situational awareness in the Philippines and turned down many opportunities for housing and living situations that just seemed a little to exposed and risky for my taste. OTOH, I am quick to tell people that I have never personally felt threatened at any time, but then I keep tight control of where I am and who I'm with. Crap just seems to happen. So I don't drink, don't go to bars of any sort, keep in shape, and have been with the same woman for several years. She has a good sense of things. We live in a secured community among predominately expats. 

I do get around though - I run errands, drive the car in the insane traffic, go to the mall, walk in town, and bike regularly in the mountains (on roads). I even ride jeepneys sometimes, haha, but I always maintain that S-A, don't flash my phone or watch when I do, and I never ride them at night. I have found most Filipinos I encounter to be friendly and helpful, and I treat them with respect, as one should, and as others have also advocated. That said, they are emotional people, and reactive, and what concerns me the most is the impunity with which crimes can be committed, which is well documented. 

The Philippines is one of the worst-rated countries for Impunity. Someone could have a grudge against you and have you popped for $100 by a hit man on a motorcycle. And nothing would ever come of it. Or you could be fingered as a drug dealer or pedophile and shot, without ever having your day in court and legal representation. Even something as simple as to go out for a hike on a beautiful trail.. you might be robbed and possibly murdered. I have seen the guys sitting with their Red Horse and eying us when we hike a bit sometimes. I sure won't do it alone. And no way will I camp in the Philippines, so I have to do that at home. It doesn't help to know of police corruption and recent drug enforcements where the victim never had the benefit of due process. As much as I like some of the president's initiatives, that whole thing really added a new level of concern.

Knowing the laws, I am even careful where I go alone with her kids as something could be interpreted wrongly by someone who doesn't know us if she's not there. So I generally avoid that except school runs where the guards know me, or the occasional trip to the mall where we never get hassled. It's really a crazy and unsafe place if you think you might get killed for just being here and helping them. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. I have to say I do not feel this same level of concern in Thailand, even in Bangkok. There is not the same level of violence there in my experience, and I believe one would stand a better chance with the police and legal system.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

JRB__NW said:


> Thanks for the research and your thoughts, Manitoba. It can indeed be worrisome when you read the news and hear stories. I have always exercised high situational awareness in the Philippines and turned down many opportunities for housing and living situations that just seemed a little to exposed and risky for my taste.....


I would like to know what percentage of the homicides that occur here came about in part due to risky behaviors on the foreigner's part. I am not saying blame the victim, but some actions will increase your risk of harm.

Was the foreigner involved in pay for sex or drugs, did he flaunt his wealth and then get drunk in a shady part of town, cutting through a dark alley on his way home?

Did he disrespect someone to the point where retaliation was to have been expected. Not here but on my first trip to Jamaica in the early 80's a tourist was murdered in a food market in Kingston. He and a local accidentally bumped into each other, spilling the local's cup of soup and the tourist yelled at the local and refused to buy him another cup of soup, according to the speculation in the papers at the time( Yes younguns, once upon a time we got our news on dead trees lol). In the resulting fight the locals in the place beat the tourist to death and stole his expensive camera equipment, watch etc. All over a cup of soup costing a few cents. I can believe that similar incidents could occur here.

How many were love triangles where a foreigner was with a local's girlfriend or wife? 

I too have never felt unsafe here but I also don't go to bars, frequent places like Burgos Street and am not out much after dark except in well lit busy places. I live in a secure high rise (actually moved because the security enforcement at the last place was not too good.) 

On the other hand, in 9 years in Afghanistan i never particularity felt unsafe even when there was active shooting around us, we took the appropriate precautions an everyone came out OK.

IMHO it all comes down to having situational awareness, practicing safety in your everyday activities,. That applies here as well as everywhere else I have ever been in the world.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

So basically everyone in the Philippines needs to be handled with kit gloves to avoid offending. The problem is that some people look for offence so they can pick a fight with the foreigner.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Gary D said:


> So basically everyone in the Philippines needs to be handled with kit gloves to avoid offending. The problem is that some people look for offence so they can pick a fight with the foreigner.


I think not. Very few here would be looking for trouble. It is a race of people who for the most part are too passive to even stand up against a local power company or internet service when wronged or service is not what is promised. The most worrisome would be those that have had too much to drink and have lost whatever common sense they possess.

The locals as a whole are eager to interact with us foreign nationals on a friendly basis. But they can take offence by an off hand (harmless) remark misunderstood or even a look in the wrong way. That's where the danger lies and someone new here will not know or understand this. That's why I have always said that it will take a new comer at least two years here to settle in and learn a little.
The Philippines is as dangerous as the amount of real knowledge the visitor or newbie has.


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## Danman (Mar 23, 2016)

Asian Spirit is so right, the Philippines can be a lawless country, just a few examples, near us is an Ethanol Plant many people complained about the sickly smell and the black ash that covers most of the houses near the Plant and most of the peole who complained were shot dead even Barangay Captains, so no one complains anymore There is a piggery near to our house the smell was bad day and night so I complained to a Barangay Official and they inspected the piggery and found many health related problems and told the owner to fix the problem but many months later still the same bad smell, but I will not complain anymore as I fear it may not be good for my health if I do. As a friend told me here many years ago always fly under the radar.


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## mogo51 (Jun 11, 2011)

Gary D said:


> I wonder how many homicides in the Philippines become suicide due to lazy policing.


Plenty.

eg. suicide - the deceased fell backwards onto the knife 3 times (can't help bad luck).


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

lost_lyn said:


> Crimes against foreigners is going to be higher than the statistics though. Try comparing a European homicide rates in North Dakota, versus Mindanao.


Do you have any backup data and references for that? If so please post.

Why would you want to compare the homicide rate for Europeans in North Dakota with anywhere? I have spent time in North Dakota never saw a European there let alone heard of any being killed there.

It is just cherry picking data to select a place with almost zero Europeans, so zero Europeans killed with a place where there are lots of violence and an insurgency and martial law declared.

I really don't see your point.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

In reference to a couple of earlier posts on this thread. Thinking of how quickly and how innocent incidents can be misunderstood. Recently I, holding hands with a little girl of 5 years old entered an eating establishment. We selected a table while being glared at with totally disapproving stares and sat down. About 4 minutes later my Asawa and the little girls Mama came in and sat down with us as they had been messing out at the vehicle (out of sight to the eaterys staff) while the little girl & I went on ahead inside. I hadn't thought anything about what it looked like as it was happening, only after we were eating I got to thinking of the stares and furrowed brows of those observing us. She considers me as her "Lolo" and is always laughing and smiling when we are together and she is the daughter of my Asawas adopted daughter. WOW, if looks could kill, I would have been done under in those couple of minutes.

Fred


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

fmartin_gila said:


> In reference to a couple of earlier posts on this thread. Thinking of how quickly and how innocent incidents can be misunderstood. Recently I, holding hands with a little girl of 5 years old entered an eating establishment. We selected a table while being glared at with totally disapproving stares and sat down. About 4 minutes later my Asawa and the little girls Mama came in and sat down with us as they had been messing out at the vehicle (out of sight to the eaterys staff) while the little girl & I went on ahead inside. I hadn't thought anything about what it looked like as it was happening, only after we were eating I got to thinking of the stares and furrowed brows of those observing us. She considers me as her "Lolo" and is always laughing and smiling when we are together and she is the daughter of my Asawas adopted daughter. WOW, if looks could kill, I would have been done under in those couple of minutes.
> 
> Fred


You bring up a very good point Fred. Judgment of other people can be the cause of many problems. We live in an area that puts Angeles City as our closest large city. This is the prostitution capital of the world with more hookers around than there are mosquitos almost.

Two or three times per month I take my two daughters, 14 and 17 years old over to SM City Mall at Clark. Same thing happens to us every time. Generally, this happens at the mall, restaurants, bank etc. I find it almost comical that such small minds have nothing better to do. After so many years of living here I just about don't pay attention to it anymore. I do find it sad that "they" allow prostitution and even support it as a legitimate source of income. If laws existed and were enforced here like most anywhere else taking out children out to a restaurant or mall would go unnoticed as it should.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Asian Spirit said:


> You bring up a very good point Fred. Judgment of other people can be the cause of many problems. We live in an area that puts Angeles City as our closest large city. This is the prostitution capital of the world with more hookers around than there are mosquitos almost.
> 
> Two or three times per month I take my two daughters, 14 and 17 years old over to SM City Mall at Clark. Same thing happens to us every time. Generally, this happens at the mall, restaurants, bank etc. I find it almost comical that such small minds have nothing better to do. After so many years of living here I just about don't pay attention to it anymore. I do find it sad that "they" allow prostitution and even support it as a legitimate source of income. If laws existed and were enforced here like most anywhere else taking out children out to a restaurant or mall would go unnoticed as it should.


As it should be Gene. The innocent mums and dads like yourself or myself going out with our family attract attention, always a/the look of a westerner is involved,,,,,, I admit I see this but won't succumb from a side wise glance to a perpetrator of ill will. These people are our family and from experience will defend and from observations is never called into play, loyalty, family hold the day and as we know no other will ever rise above and defended our position, humility and integrity. We will always be the new kid on the block and obviously some locals try to take advantage plus a little more, experience and the ability to simply say Hindi usually attracts attention.

Hookers as we mostly say are part of life and simply ply their trade no different to a factory worker or some politician using and abusing the constabulary and then some. At least the prostitute earns her or his keep absolutely no different to receiving the pay cheque for punching a button or other tasks. It's a job no different to mine over the last 44 years

Laws like these are prevalent in all third world countries and no matter the street sweeper, the prostitute or the president elect all earn a living from the people and as we see here perhaps come under scrutiny for plying a trade, though not palpable to some perfectly acceptable to others.
Live and let live to all scraping a meagre living to put food on the table for those that can't. Share and care as we know. 
Bit of a rant, yes another one but simply my two bobs worth.

Cheers, Steve.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Have to apologise as this post is about "foreigner homicide rates", missed the mark as I was following on like a lost sheep.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

bigpearl said:


> Have to apologise as this post is about "foreigner homicide rates", missed the mark as I was following on like a lost sheep.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


Don't sweat it Steve. These kind of things as this subject can and perhaps does lead to danger or death of foreign citizens here. I'd not be surprised.


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