# Working as doctor in france



## Rachelmcgillivray

Hi there 
My husband is likely to move to Grenoble in France for work in the future. I work as a GP and forensic medical officer (like GP work, but for police) in the UK and would like to continue working in France. Does anyone have experience/knowledge of how best to go about this? My French is awful, but I'm planning in taking intensive classes, and not working for at least the first year as we have young children I'd like to settle in first. Thanks


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## Bevdeforges

If you're already planning on taking a "sabbatical" from working for a year, I'd plan on scouting out the possibilities once you've gotten here. It will do your French a world of good (i.e. to have a "project" to research) and while you may not be able to continue in precisely the same line of work, you'll be more likely to see some new and creative possibilities based on what's around you and what your circumstances are.

I know medical professionals who have turned their qualifications into related areas - like technical writing or editing, working in insurance or for medical or pharmaceutical companies. Or sometimes a totally unique opportunity presents itself when you least expect it. 

Main point is to learn the language and get out and about to meet people and get to know them. It's still pretty much the case that most jobs in France are found through "bouche à l'oreille" (word of mouth).
Cheers,
Bev


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## DejW

I've met EU people - one doctor, one dentist who set up in France. I understand there are two distinct hurdles; One is to get your qualifications (in French language too) accepted by the centre in Paris. Once done you have to meet the local committee to see if they accept you. These committees seem to be very stong and have some legal powers.

My Dutch dentist friend was advised before the TWO local interviews to emphasis that he would have the "norm" plate outside his cabinet and that he would open the same hours as other dentists in the area. A better example of anti- competition is hard to find! No consideration for the patients!

If you set up in a cabinet where you meet the public you will need an intensive course on how the securité social system works. With our local GP I am as impressed with her understanding of the many forms to use as by her clinical skills.

good luck.......DejW


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## VERITE1

You will find here on page 41 (Royaume Uni):

http://www.conseil-national.medecin.fr/sites/default/files/diplomes_UE.pdf

the requirements to enable you to work in France as a medical practionner. It doesn't look too difficult, but of course speaking fluent French is vital if you wish to treat French speaking patients.

It might be a good idea to enquire at the Université de Grenoble (Faculté de Médecine) to see if you can take part in medical courses/conferences which may help you to familiarise yourself with medical practice/terminology in France.

Making friends with local GP's may also be helpful.

Good luck!


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## 512346

I was under the impression you have to be of French nationality to practice medicine in France. The exception are those doctors working in the American Hospital in Paris which is limited to a certain number.....I think ????.

In terms of police forensics, for info the headquarters is in Ecully in Lyon (Sous-direction de la police technique et scientifique / Direction Centrale de la Police Judiciaire / Organisation - Police nationale - Ministère de l'Intérieur) 

Not a million miles away from Grenoble.


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## DejW

Interesting point Smeggie.

Certainly my Dutch dentist friend (= doctor in France) is torturing patients in France as I write this. Locally, we have doctors of Polish, Moroccan and Algerian backgrounds. I don't know if they have taken Fr nationality - rather rude to ask?

DejW



Smeg said:


> I was under the impression you have to be of French nationality to practice medicine in France. The exception are those doctors working in the American Hospital in Paris which is limited to a certain number.....I think ????.
> 
> In terms of police forensics, for info the headquarters is in Ecully in Lyon (Sous-direction de la police technique et scientifique / Direction Centrale de la Police Judiciaire / Organisation - Police nationale - Ministère de l'Intérieur)
> 
> Not a million miles away from Grenoble.


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## 512346

I might be wrong....I usually am. 

Even if your qualifications were excepted, you would have to speak near perfect French to practice medicine.....which means you would have to be born/grew up here.


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## DejW

I think..."Does it hurt here..........?" and the patient replies aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh, yes

works in all languages! 

Seriously, it think it's important to be very competent in the language (UK take note!). My Dutch dentist and Swiss (German speaking) speech therapist worked in France - both have excellent French.

DejW


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## Bevdeforges

But Smeg (I think it was) raised another, possibly more important point - besides knowing your branch of medicine, you also have to know how the medical professions work in France. That includes understanding your interaction with the Sécu, and what practices and treatments are "covered" or not. As I understand it, many doctors here in France are opposed to the government's proposals to shift to a "single payer" model. I don't entirely understand what their objection is, but it does seem that it will throw a greater responsibility onto the doctors and their "cabinets." 

However, with the OP experienced in forensic medicine, it may not be as critical to get the "doctor credential" recognized - or at least not in quite the same manner. Plus, being in an area like Grenoble (with a large university presence) there may be some possibilities in research, teaching or other variations of the art.
Cheers,
Bev


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## VERITE1

Have a look at this:

Working abroad

There are many non French doctors practising in France, and because of the numerus clausus (the number of medical students beinglimited to a fixed number each year) there is a lack of GPs in many areas (not the most attractive obviously but there is definitely a need).

Spoken and written French has to be very good but not perfect except in the domain of expertise of the doctor. And medical terms in any language are often easily understandable or easily acquired by someone with medical training.


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## DejW

....aha

Learn by heart "take 2 paracetamol" = "prenez deux doliprane" - not too difficult.

Off topic joke, and I'll get my wrists slapped by Bev, but

"Why can't you buy aspirins in Aldershot (UK military town)?"

....because the paras eat 'em all.

Which, if you know anything about para training, if not far from the truth.

DejW





VERITE said:


> Have a look at this:
> 
> Working abroad
> 
> There are many non French doctors practising in France, and because of the numerus clausus (the number of medical students beinglimited to a fixed number each year) there is a lack of GPs in many areas (not the most attractive obviously but there is definitely a need).
> 
> Spoken and written French has to be very good but not perfect except in the domain of expertise of the doctor. And medical terms in any language are often easily understandable or easily acquired by someone with medical training.


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## VERITE1

.....AND you will note that there is no shortage of French doctors living and practising in the UK:

French doctors in london

so if it's possible for them.....:blabla:


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## baldilocks

Just remember that "Say 'ninety-nine'" is "Dites 'quatre vingt dix neuf".


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## VERITE1

And don't you love the name of the echographist on the list of French docs in London? - Dr Cockenpot (I hope he'll forgive me) - French equivalent of a bun in the oven or as the French Canadians say une polichinelle dans le tiroir? reggers:


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## DejW

resounding echo, pregnant pause..........oh!. ..... Perhaps it's a misconception?

D



VERITE said:


> And don't you love the name of the echographist on the list of French docs in London? - Dr Cockenpot (I hope he'll forgive me) - French equivalent of a bun in the oven or as the French Canadians say une polichinelle dans le tiroir? reggers:


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## Clic Clac

DejW said:


> I think..."Does it hurt here..........?" and the patient replies aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh, yes
> 
> works in all languages!
> 
> Seriously, it think it's important to be very competent in the language (*UK take note!*). My Dutch dentist and Swiss (German speaking) speech therapist worked in France - both have excellent French.
> 
> DejW


You're not kidding, DejW.

I had to 'laugh' when one of the UK political parties proudly announced last week that they were going to bring in minimum standards of English for all NHS staff.

Joking aside, there have already been fatalities through language-error.


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## 95995

Frankly, and as Verite states, there is a shortage of GPs in many areas - there is also a shortage of doctors prepared to do after-hours or prepared/able to visit patients at home, and there is always a shortage of doctors in hospital emergency. So as long as you get on top of the language, and are not too picky about location/hours of work, you should be able to find employment (eg. if you were prepared to work weekends, act as a locum, or set up a practice in a village not too far from Grenoble etc etc etc etc). Not sure about the forensic work - suggest you do some research, but Grenoble I think is relatively well located for this (Lyon might be better). That said, you might be able to work with one of the fly-in fly-out teams that deal with major incidents (subject, of course, to qualification).


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## 95995

BTW, most GPs here do their own paperwork, take their own phone calls, and don't employ a secretary. Doctors also don't earn much, relatively speaking.
The issue they have with tiers payants proposals is (1) more paperwork and (2) concerns about having to wait several months for payment from the mutuelles. In addition, there are literally hundreds of mutuelles in France which in itself is cause for concern for doctors.


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## Bevdeforges

I would think the other big "risk" they seem to be asking the doctors to take on is keeping track of whether or not their patients even have a mutuelle. I don't see why the sécu wouldn't continue to handle the task of passing on the payment requests to the mutuelle as they now do. But for patients without a mutuelle, the doctor could wind up getting stiffed for a portion of the fees.

Unless, of course, the government wants to make mutuelle coverage mandatory.... (and from some information I just received from our insurer, it seems that that will soon be the case for the employers). Anyhow, it's just this sort of thing that makes it just that much more difficult for a foreigner who wants to practice medicine here in France.

There are plenty of medicine-related occupations the OP may be able to look into that wouldn't require going through the full process of having foreign credentials validated to practice here in France. And forensic medicine is very likely to be one of those possibilities.
Cheers,
Bev


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## VERITE1

Not sure about forensic medicine being understaffed. There are certain areas where women doctors occupy a majority of jobs because they are often 'family friendly', ie with office hours (school doctors, social security doctors, doctors for the different administrations needing medical examinations) and forensic medicine seems to fall into this category.

So these jobs are highly sought-after by women doctors with families as they are able to juggle career/children/home. :confused2:

What's more, the modern popularity of books, films and tv series devoted to this speciality has increased the interest in this otherwise marginal medical activity.

http://www.chu-grenoble.fr/content/medecine-legale


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## 95995

Bevdeforges said:


> I would think the other big "risk" they seem to be asking the doctors to take on is keeping track of whether or not their patients even have a mutuelle. I don't see why the sécu wouldn't continue to handle the task of passing on the payment requests to the mutuelle as they now do. But for patients without a mutuelle, the doctor could wind up getting stiffed for a portion of the fees.
> 
> Unless, of course, the government wants to make mutuelle coverage mandatory.... (and from some information I just received from our insurer, it seems that that will soon be the case for the employers). Anyhow, it's just this sort of thing that makes it just that much more difficult for a foreigner who wants to practice medicine here in France.
> 
> There are plenty of medicine-related occupations the OP may be able to look into that wouldn't require going through the full process of having foreign credentials validated to practice here in France. And forensic medicine is very likely to be one of those possibilities.
> Cheers,
> Bev


As I understand it, they are talking about issuing a card, valid for 2 years. That, though, would assume that patients have their contributions up to date.


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## Rachelmcgillivray

Thanks so much for all these replies, and also making me laugh a bit, esp like the cockenpot...?
I shall look into it a bit more, but definitely realise I need to vastly improve my French, hopefully 1-2 years shall help, and give me plenty time to work out how to get a job! Or maybe I shall get too used to being a lady of leisure...!
Thanks again


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## DejW

Nice to read your kindness -especially for my childish attempts at humour. Feel free ask any question her about France - all the regular posters here have been through "interesting times" when settling into France.

DejW


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## lebesset

Rachelmcgillivray said:


> Hi there
> My husband is likely to move to Grenoble in France for work in the future. I work as a GP and forensic medical officer (like GP work, but for police) in the UK and would like to continue working in France. Does anyone have experience/knowledge of how best to go about this? My French is awful, but I'm planning in taking intensive classes, and not working for at least the first year as we have young children I'd like to settle in first. Thanks


the university of grenoble has a school of pharmacy and medicine 

personally I would contact them immediately on arrival , at a guess somebody english speaking with your qualifications and background would be useful to them and in any case they would be able to advise you of your best plan of action especially as you are not seeking employment immediately 

I note that somebody here said many doctors don't earn a lot ; my best friend here is a retired doctor and he agrees with that , but he doesn't know one without a 6 figure income ...ok , in euros , is not to uk standards , but livable nevertheless


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## Nina.kpln

hi Rachel, I’m curious if you ended up working as a GP in France. I’m a general practitioner in germany (but native English speaker) and am considering moving with my husband who is French to France. I have a few concerns about practicing in France and haven’t found very specific information. For one, I keep reading that French doctors are overworked. Is it possible to only open your practice 4-6 hours a day? Or is the pay so bad that you need to be open 8-10 hours/day? In Germany it’s possible for a GP to add on specializations/diagnostics such as ultrasound (abdomen, arteries/veins etc), stress-EKG, 24 hour ekg etc or specialties such as travel medicine, naturopath, sports medicine. This makes being a GP much more interesting and varied. Is that possible in France as well? Any information you/any one else would like to pay is much appreciated!


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## Keri22

There is a specialist dictionary by William Gladstone entitled English - French Dictionary of Medical and Paramedical Sciences that would likely be valuable.


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## Bevdeforges

Most of the "specific" information is going to be available only in French, as here: Vous avez un diplôme de Docteur en médecine hors UE et EEE | Emploi médical
Then again, there is always Google Translate or some other online app or facility to do the translation for you. Then there is the website of the National Order of Doctors, which is (I think) the main qualifying agency:








Exercer la médecine en France


Trois conditions sont nécessaires pour exercer la médecine en France : diplômes, nationalité et inscription au Tableau de l’Ordre des médecins.




www.conseil-national.medecin.fr




Poke around on this website using a translation app for the most authoritative information.

French doctors are overworked, largely because there is a major problem with distribution of medical practitioners here in France. Particularly in the rural areas, there may simply be no doctors available within a fairly wide radius and transport of elderly or mobility-impaired residents can be a genuine problem. Add to that, there are a number of areas in Ile de France (i.e. the Paris region) that are officially considered "medical deserts" - with much debate and dithering going on about how to motivate (or require) newly graduated doctors to do at least a tour of a few years in some of the areas in the most need of a local practitioner. The other big factor for this involves the difference between working in a public hospital setting and having a private practice - medical staff in a public facility are salaried (and definitely underpaid); private practitioners can set their own fees, but there are constraints due to the national health system related to how they reimburse. There is also a fairly rigid system whereby much testing and certain types of treatment are carried out here by laboratories and designated specialists rather than by the GP who orders up the services. 

Depending on where you got your initial degree as a doctor, you will probably be subject to some level of training in order to transfer your credentials (if only to learn the ropes regarding the national health care system here) - but as far as how many hours you "have to" work, one approach currently being "encouraged" involves group practices where 2, 3 or 4 (or more) doctors go into practice together sharing resources and covering for each other as needed.


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## BraveHorse

There are many foreign doctors in France. I've seen a Romanian doctor in Nice, and a German physiotherapist in Carcassonne. Some Algerians also work in French hospitals. I don't know how they do it, but they manage to get their foreign diplomas converted to a French one. It can be done!


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