# Portagens & Scuts = Toll Roads



## Ingles

Announced on last nights TV New's & confirmed this morning in the Press
Rice from 1 st Jan 2012 + 4.36%


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## Waterdog

Sorry Ingels do not understand your post? What is with the 4.36%?

To keep all the discussions together could this new tread be included in the original one?


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## Ingles

Waterdog said:


> Sorry Ingels do not understand your post? What is with the 4.36%?
> 
> To keep all the discussions together could this new tread be included in the original one?


It is the INCREASE in Charges as from 1st Jan 2012
I did put + 4.36%
As to include this in original post it's up to the Mod's
But personaly I think this increase is a damn right liberty & frankly needs to be on it's own


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## Waterdog

Ingels - I now understand & bow to your obvious indignation but wasn't it always the intent, having introduced the tolls, to turn them into cash cows? 

With regard to promoting the tourism & the economy in general - shooting oneself in the foot comes to mind. 

I assume that this does not in anyway address the ongoing farce regarding the A22?

By the way, my spies advise it is still possible to get a hire car in Lagos for cash. Thus avoiding the risks associated with credit card.


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## Ingles

Waterdog said:


> Ingels - I now understand & bow to your obvious indignation but wasn't it always the intent, having introduced the tolls, to turn them into cash cows?
> 
> With regard to promoting the tourism & the economy in general - shooting oneself in the foot comes to mind.
> 
> I assume that this does not in anyway address the ongoing farce regarding the A22?
> 
> By the way, my spies advise it is still possible to get a hire car in Lagos for cash. Thus avoiding the risks associated with credit card.


Hi waterdog .Yes they are "cash cow" but to put the fee so soon after it was introduced is taking the P
A22 "crystal ball" time as to what will happen


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## canoeman

I'd agree it's a separate issue but at the risk of being labelled a Government spokesperson, lets put it into perspective a 4.36% increase on a toll of €10 is 44c.

London congestion charges increased by 25%


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## Waterdog

I agree less than 5% isn't a huge rise but it is the thin edge of the wedge & must reduce Portugal's competitiveness.

Noting London's 25% in congestion charge is not comparing like with like but if you listen to Inner London spokesmen they too voice fears that the hike in congestion charges could damage their businesses.


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## paulrees

*Toll prices rise before they have even started*



Ingles said:


> Announced on last nights TV New's & confirmed this morning in the Press
> Rice from 1 st Jan 2012 + 4.36%


For -tolls price rise- article have a look at

Tolls prices rise before they have started

also, for the Tolls legislation status quo, look at 

A22 Tolls, the President will decide

and maybe register to receive their weekly newsletter with toll updates.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> I'd agree it's a separate issue but at the risk of being labelled a Government spokesperson, lets put it into perspective a 4.36% increase on a toll of €10 is 44c.
> 
> London congestion charges increased by 25%


I disagree on this point , A extra 44c -10 trips per week = 4.40 € x 4 weeks = 17.60 €
thats a lot for somebody on Min Wage!

The Congestion charge is so easy to avoid in Central London there is a mass of Public Transport that will take anywhere, so unless you have a load to drop why pay it ?

Here in certain areas especially in the North there are NO alternative roads & NO Public Transport 
The village I live near has 4 buses per day - 2 in - 2 out


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## lagosguy

Ingles said:


> The Congestion charge is so easy to avoid in Central London there is a mass of Public Transport that will take anywhere, so unless you have a load to drop why pay it ?


You're absolutely right, Les. The London Congestion Charge was a ridiculous comparison to make. Visitors to London are actively discouraged from bringing their cars into the city and there is a huge amount of public transport that makes it very easy to get round without a car. In parts of Portugal, by contrast, public transport is extremely poor and in the Algarve tourists simply can't visit many of the sights without a car. 

Also, when referring to the increase in the Congestion Charge (which was actually from £8 to £10, a 20% increase), it needs to be remembered that the Mayor abolished the Congestion Charge Western Extension at the same time, thus fulfilling the main manifesto commitment that got him elected. The £2 increase in the Central zone was needed to the make good some of the lost income; but overall the number of people paying the Congestion Charge was reduced dramatically and the change was almost universally applauded (the Greens and car-haters are still gnashing their teeth 11 Months later.)

One of the reasons for abolishing the Western Zone (and here the comparison between the Portuguese SCUT tolls and the Congestion Charge is relevant) was that businesses in the Western extension suffered a dramatic slump in trade, because so many drivers opted to keep out of the zone, and many were so badly affected that they had to shut up shop. The major traders (John Lewis prominent among them) warned the former Mayor of what would happen; but he was one of the car-haters and he never intended to listen to the result of the consultation he was forced to undertaken (about 80% of respondents opposed the extension). It took an election and a new Mayor with a specific commitment to abolish the extension to reverse the damage.

Business leaders in the Algarve are making the same dire predictions; but the government, for party political and dogmatic reasons, seems determined to push it through. Looks like the Algarve tourist industry will have to suffer its own drop in trade to show what a stupid decision the government has made. Unfortunately it will take the Algarve much longer than West London to recover.

Finally, a 4.36% increase might seem like small beer to somebody with a nice income or pension; but to somebody on a low wage in the tourist industry, who has no alternative but to use the A22 to get to his(her) restaurant/bar/shop job in one of the resorts, it could be the difference between having a job and being unemployed.


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## canoeman

Point on congestion charge was the percentage increase, nothing else.
Are you really that naive that you think this only affects the Algarve, the majority of tolls traditional or SCUT are not in the Algarve and affect a far greater % of the population than the Algarve every will.


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> Point on congestion charge was the percentage increase, nothing else.
> Are you really that naive that you think this only affects the Algarve, the majority of tolls traditional or SCUT are not in the Algarve and affect a far greater % of the population than the Algarve every will.


As I said to Les, you risked misleading readers by drawing attention to the increase in the Congestion Charge (which you wrongly inflated by 5%) without also drawing attention to the halving of the charging area, and the consequential reduction in the number of people having to pay the Charge. 

I live part-time in Lagos and my primary concern is about the impact of the tolls on the Algarve tourism industry and the consequential damage that could be done to the western Algarve in terms of closed shops, restaurants, empty hotels, declining property prices etc.. You are clearly reluctant to accept this point, which I have made many times before, so I shall make it again. The Algarve is different from any other part of Portugal in its reliance on tourism for the health of its economy. If you can point me towards any other area of Portugal (except maybe Lisboa, I don't know the relative numbers; but then, of course, unlike the Algarve Lisboa has so many other income steams) that even remotely measures up to the Algarve for its tourism income then I shall happily shut up. But for just about everybody apart from you and a few others, Portuguese tourism is synonymous with the Algarve and it is tourists who will be most adversely affected by electronic tolls system (note: the system rather than just the tolls) that the government has chosen to implement. 

I don't know enough about the relative populations of the various Portuguese regions to argue the point about the numbers having to pay SCUT tolls. However, if you were to add individual tourists, who bring in their own vehicles into the Algarve or who hire vehicles at Faro Airport, to the Algarve population, I suspect that you would get a very different picture from the one you seek to present. 

Unlike other parts of Portugal where tolls are already being charged, the A22 is still toll-free and there is still a chance to make the government change its mind. That's why, for many of us, the A22 tolls are the ones that we focus on.


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## Waterdog

Until the current surveying strikes gold (I mean gas/oil), I think it fair to say that the Algarve economy is largely dependent on tourism, the income from overseas of its large expat community (in the form of pensions & overseas investments) & the employment that this expat community generates.

The complicated system planned for tolling the A22 must have an adverse impact on tourism, which will in turn, impact on all other aspects of raising revenue in the Algarve.

To paraphrase, if the Algarve catches a cold, Portugal will feel the chill!

As a final thought does anybody know what % of the Portuguese GDP is generated within the Algarve?


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## canoeman

"Unlike other parts of Portugal where tolls are already being charged, the A22 is still toll-free and there is still a chance to make the government change its mind. That's why, for many of us, the A22 tolls are the ones that we focus on."

so no doubt if successful you would then fight to have tolls removed from all the other SCUT tolled roads ?

Yes I am reluctant to accept that the Algarve is different to any other parts of Portugal, i don't doubt the value or importance of tourism to the Algarve, but I really don't see that the A22 being tolled would have any serious effect, it's the car companies not taking payments onboard and the difficulty for non Portuguese cars to pay tolls that creates the problem not the tolls.

Plenty of information here, if you want a true idea of the influence of borders, tourist, transport a few weeks in the North might put the Algarve into some sort of perspective, or a trip to Ikea, Primark or leRoyMerlin at Porto might really open your eyes, even a flight from Porto airport where passenger numbers are virtually identical to Faro, or a week along the Minho to see the Spanish flock over the river for shopping and eating, we where here for a few weeks in the summer and saw far more foreign plated cars than the Algarve. 
Statistics Portugal .


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> I really don't see that the A22 being tolled would have any serious effect, it's the car companies not taking payments onboard and the difficulty for non Portuguese cars to pay tolls that creates the problem not the tolls.


So we're back to "it's all the car hire companies' fault". 
Doesn't really need a response. 

:bored:


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## canoeman

Not at all, Portugal needs the tolls as it needs tourism and ever other economic plus factor to help dig itself out of the mire, I continue to make the point that tolls are part of a car rental companies operating problems, most cover themselves with a clause that allows them to charge hirers for any unpaid fines tolls etc.
i still believe that as theses tolls are a problem for a hirer to pay then the companies should put something in place other than passing on unpaid tolls, fines and admin charges. It's bad business, it is easy and perfectly possible for them to install "boxes" it's no different to renting out a satnav, baby sheet, roof rack, it's just another facet of there business and cheaper.

As someone else posted one of the car companies is now fitting boxes so my ideas are neither rubbish or impossible.


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## Waterdog

Canoeman, whilst I understand your logic & agree that your ideas are neither rubbish nor impossible, regrettably they are unlikely to be implemented.

Unfortunately if the buck stops with the client then one unhappy client = another lost tourist & when they have retold their story 'down at the pub' then this will result in €1000s of lost revenue to the Algarve. 

A cold for the Algarve; a chill for Portugal.

A girl friend of mine that works in The City used to holiday in Italy. Then after one holiday her credit card was hit for €1,000. Subsequently, after numerous phone calls, 'their mistake' was resolved. Result, she will never return to Italy & frequently retells the story to an appreciative well-heeled audience. 

Portugal won this one as she & some of her colleagues have transferred their custom in our direction - but for how long?


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## Surfin USA

New to this whole debate so what’s the problem?

Understand that unemployment is rising all over Portugal (including the Algarve). 

The motorways are lightly used so why not build some booths & employ a few folks to collect the tolls on the spot. Unemployment reduced, confusion resolved & customers happy. 

Well the last point probably a bit of exaggeration, but at least they won't be spitting blood when they get home to an expected large credit card bill.


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## canoeman

Waterdog said:


> Canoeman, whilst I understand your logic & agree that your ideas are neither rubbish nor impossible, regrettably they are unlikely to be implemented.
> 
> 
> 
> As I posted they are being implemented, if 1 company that we know of is installing "boxes" and are represented across Portugal then others will follow.
> 
> If I was in the tourist business in Portugal then I certainly know which company I would recommend to my clients , and they also seem competitive on price, so that's not an issue
Click to expand...


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## Surfin USA

Well between you all, you have certainly aired all sides of this argument. 

Canoeman appears to lead the optimists camp, of one, who considers there is no real problem but the remainder seem to be the pessimists who foresee considerable problems.

Who knows, if we are to believe some pundits, because of the unsatisfactory state of the N125 the A22 would be declared a special case & remain toll free TFN, or at least until the 125 is brought up to spec. 

Now that should make everybody happy!

Only time will tell but this continuing uncertainty must be the worst option of all.


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## lagosguy

Surfin USA said:


> Well between you all, you have certainly aired all sides of this argument.
> 
> Canoeman appears to lead the optimists camp, of one, who considers there is no real problem but the remainder seem to be the pessimists who foresee considerable problems.
> 
> Who knows, if we are to believe some pundits, because of the unsatisfactory state of the N125 the A22 would be declared a special case & remain toll free TFN, or at least until the 125 is brought up to spec.
> 
> Now that should make everybody happy!
> 
> Only time will tell but this continuing uncertainty must be the worst option of all.



Unfortunately, I don't think it would make everybody happy. A number of posters on this forum and other expat fora seem to want the A22 tolls to start as soon as possible on "fairness" grounds, i.e. if they have to pay tolls on their SCUT roads, so should the Algarvians. One even made the bizarre suggestion that those who have been paying the tolls for a while should get some kind of rebate or allowance because the Algarvians have been getting away without paying. 

Those that hold this view tend to reject the premises (a) that the Algarve is different from the rest of Portugal by virtue of its (over)reliance on tourism and (b) that what is irritating but tolerable in parts of Portugal could be economically devastating for the Algarve. As Waterdog reasonably pointed out, a significant reduction in tourist income from the Algarve would impact adversely on Portugal's overall financial state, so that the A22 tolls could end up doing more harm than good.


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## Surfin USA

Lagosguy, thanks a bunch for filling me in on the background to the differences. As a visitor to the UK these negative attitudes towards The Algarve appear to mirror the north/south divide in GB.

In the UK the North/Midlands appear to resent The City's success in the UK & fail to recognise that like it or not, it is this success of The City that keeps the whole of the UK afloat.

In the US there is an opposite attitude that reveres success & power but derides failure & the weak; one of the reasons why I left the US.


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## Waterdog

Surfin interesting observation. You may agree that the broadly held adverse view of Tesco in the UK is another manifestation of the British dislike of success.


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## canoeman

Surfin USA said:


> Lagosguy, thanks a bunch for filling me in on the background to the differences. As a visitor to the UK these negative attitudes towards The Algarve appear to mirror the north/south divide in GB.
> 
> In the UK the North/Midlands appear to resent The City's success in the UK & fail to recognise that like it or not, it is this success of The City that keeps the whole of the UK afloat.
> 
> In the US there is an opposite attitude that reveres success & power but derides failure & the weak; one of the reasons why I left the US.


Your making the assumption that Lagosguy view of the Algarve is correct, I don't underrate the importance of tourism to the Algarve but tolls handle properly should have a zero impact. He takes the view that the A22 shouldn't be tolled, I don't see any possible reason why that should be the case, nor does he substantiate his view, other areas have equally good or better cases and have already lost the fight not to be tolled.

The SCUT roads weren't designed for toll booths so it's not feasible to retro fit. The roads where build by private companies that have contracts with the Government for minimum payments on usage, the electronic tolls where introduced to balance the books. 

Waterdog asked about tourism which seems to account for around 5% of GDP, in order of popularity Lisbon area, Algarve, Porto and the northern Region, Silver Coast and Alentejo. Greatest recent growth has been Porto and Northern region.


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## searover

Perhaps those on this forum who are in favour and can see no problem with road tolling in Portugal be it north or south. Can tell us what proportion of these tolls are being repaid to the EU. As the funding for the construction of most of these roads came from the 17.5 billion euros of payments made to Portugal from the European Regional Development Fund. 
Then possibly being chanelled thro so called private constructors.


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## Surfin USA

Canoeman - as Lagosguy lives in the Algarve I can assume that he has a fairly good handle on things in his area.

Surprised that tourism only accounts for 5% of Portuguese GDP & Lisbon pulls in more income than the Algarve.


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## Ingles

searover said:


> Perhaps those on this forum who are in favour and can see no problem with road tolling in Portugal be it north or south. Can tell us what proportion of these tolls are being repaid to the EU. As the funding for the construction of most of these roads came from the 17.5 billion euros of payments made to Portugal from the European Regional Development Fund.
> Then possibly being chanelled thro so called private constructors.


:clap2:Your last comment hit's the nail right on the head,one of the biggest problem Portugal continues to face is the "you scratch my back & I'l scratch your's"
Corruption up to the highest levels of Goverments.
There should be a "bill" going thru very soon to stop Illicit Enrichment.as at the present time it is NOT ilegal to fill your own & friends pockets.
But don't hold your breath.


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## lagosguy

Surfin USA said:


> Canoeman - as Lagosguy lives in the Algarve I can assume that he has a fairly good handle on things in his area.
> 
> Surprised that tourism only accounts for 5% of Portuguese GDP & Lisbon pulls in more income than the Algarve.


I suspect that Canoeman found the 5% reference in Wikipedia. If you follow this link 4 Spots for Financial Crisis Tourism - SmartMoney.com you will find this quote from Turismo De Portugal reported in April 2011:- "Tourism is very important, absolutely," says Jayme Sim es, a spokesman for Turismo De Portugal, the country's national tourism board. Revenue is expected to grow 7.9% this year, to $23 billion -- the equivalent of 9.2% of Portugal's gross domestic product, reports Turismo De Portugal." The Algarve's contribution to 9.2% of GDP is an awful lot of income to put at risk so that SCUT toll-payers in other regions don't feel hard done-by. 

Canoeman's point about the tolls having zero impact on tourism is quite bizarre. His view certainly isn't shared by business leaders and Algarvian politicians who are still lobbying the government to change its mind. In fact this report in the Algarve Resdient shows how many politicians are arguing against it. Algarve Resident - the REAL Algarve Resident - 1st for News, information and classifieds - Fight to continue as parliament delays tolls decision AGAIN

I don't understand the suggestion that SCUT roads can't be retro-fitted with toll booths. The fact is that that the government thought it could introduce tolls on the cheap, not realising how incompatible its electronic collection system would be with the many foreign-plated cars that visit Portugal and the many thousands of hire cars driven by tourists. 

Unlike Lisbon, which, in addition to its income from tourism, has myriad other income streams by virtue of being the capital city and the seat of government, the Algarve relies almost exclusively on tourism for its prospertity - and even with tourism I recall reading that it has the highest unemployment rate of anywhere in Portugal. So a downturn in the tourist industry could have a catashtrophic effect on the local population. 

It isn't necessary to have a car to see the sights of Lisbon and it is probably the most easily accessible place in the country by public transport, so the tolls' impact on its tourism popularity will be relatively small. The Algarve by contrast is far from compact geographically, effectively being a narrow strip that runs along the length of the south coast. Public transport exists but it is poor. There is a trans-Algarvian railway; but it stops at Lagos and its route bypasses all the main tourist resorts between Lagos and Faro. There are bus routes; but they are irregular and because of the distances involved they take a long time to get anywhere. Tourists wanting to see the Algarve are almost forced to hire a car, so, unlike Lisbon tourists, they will be badly affected by the tolls. 

As regards the point you made earlier about the perception of London from the midlands and north, as a part time resident of central London, I am more than used to hearing people from the regions slagging off London while (a) happily receiving a disproportionate share of the nation's wealth, most of it generated in the capital, and (b) ignoring the fact that London has some of the most deprived and poverty-stricken areas in the UK.


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## MrBife

Just to add a further point that hasn't been discussed so far ...

With particular regard to the Algarve's A22 the only alternative for drivers not wishing to pay a toll is to divert to the EN125 which in general terms runs parallel to it between 1km and 5kms or so to the south.

When the EN125 was first built it was on the edge of cities like Faro, now with urban sprawl it runs right through a very busy part of it. In my view saying that the EN125 is a viable alternative to the A22 is just not correct as without significant upgrading it is not possible to do the same journey in a reasonable amount of time. With extra traffic volume it will be chaos.

Indeed it could be argued that the EN125 should no longer even be classified as a national road, since the construction of the A22 there have been far too many obstructions, roundabouts and even speed bumps added to make it of any use for travelling from one end of the Algarve to the other.


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## canoeman

Totally agree, equally this applies to other parallel roads that have been affected by SCUT tolls.


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## Surfin USA

Canoeman, I am confused, what do you totally agree with? 

The fact that the N125 is not fit for purpose as a trans-Algarve highway? 

I understood that this was the main argument as to why the A22 should not be tolled?


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## canoeman

I agree that the N125 is not a good road by any means, but it is only one of the factors, I don't see it as an argument not to toll A22, if you travel around Portugal, then other A roads planned to be tolled or already tolled have parallel roads in equal or similar condition and provide exactly the same problems as N125 to any user as described by Mr Bife.


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## Surfin USA

I understand that it is an EU requirement that before tolls can be introduced on a public highway there has to be a free viable alternative.

However, this legislation is not retrospective; hence the long term tolls on the Dartford crossing.

I believe that prior to the A22 opening the N125 had one of the highest accident records of any roads in the then EU.

This was one of the reasons for the EU funding the building of the 22 & was based on the need to reduce the carnage on the 125. 

This is one of a number of arguments being voiced by Portuguese businesses across the Algarve.

It would be unusually brave for a politician/ political party to sanction tolling the A22 in the knowledge they would undoubted face huge approbation & possible litigation following a major accident on the N125.

But only time will tell & I believe that all could be come apparent on or after Jan 2 2012.


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## Vicks

I've read this thread with interest and frustration.....
The London Mayor has a fair degree of autonomy and was thus able to reduce the congestion charging zone. I don't believe the Algarve Mayors' have this power?

The Spanish also pour into the Algarve via the A22. The car parks at Algarve Forum, Algarve Shopping, Leroy and others confirm this. For instance, Zara is between 10 - 15% cheaper in Portugal than Spain. Trust me!

Toll booths would certainly be the answer for the occasional traveller and tourist but the A22 (maybe others too) was built so cheaply with those ridiculously dangerous entrance and exits that the installation of booths would probably be rather exopensive. Mind you, possibly cheaper than the overhead installations that are in place.

Which car hire company has actually installed transponders?

Tolls would not have a zero impact on locals who are some of the lowest paid in Europe. Indeed, many are laid off over the Winter period when tourism is scarce. I think it is rather arrogant to suggest otherwise.

I agree that travel throughout the Algarve is difficult without a car. Public transport is irregular at the very least and certainly not to be relied upon.

Good point - how much of the toll revenue will be repaid to the EU?

Vicks


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## searover

canoeman said:


> I agree that the N125 is not a good road by any means, but it is only one of the factors, I don't see it as an argument not to toll A22, if you travel around Portugal, then other A roads planned to be tolled or already tolled have parallel roads in equal or similar condition and provide exactly the same problems as N125 to any user as described by Mr Bife.


If you are driver in the algarve and value safety, it is the only factor !!!


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## canoeman

Nor do any other of Portugals mayors have any autonomy in this matter.

As equally the Spanish pour into Northern Portugal, for shopping visit Ikea, Mar shopping Primark at Porto 

Toll booths would be a easiest but virtually impossible to retro fit.

Guirin according to poster

Arrogant why? because I disagree with some of the arguments being put forward. As at the moment the Algarve has little knowledge as to how tolls operate or the actual position of gates, it is possible to make local journeys on electronic tolled roads without being charged.

Where but in major cities is travel without a car easy in Portugal, I would not like to depend on public transport unless I lived on a main bus, coach or rail route.

Why would grant money be repaid to EU? Portugal is not the only EU country that has benefited from these grants, designed to improve a countries infrastructure and create a better EU transport network. there are many examples throughout EU for this funding. 

If you are driver in the algarve and value safety, it is the only factor !!! I thought this applied to all Portuguese roads


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> Nor do any other of Portugals mayors have any autonomy in this matter.
> 
> As equally the Spanish pour into Northern Portugal, for shopping visit Ikea, Mar shopping Primark at Porto
> 
> Toll booths would be a easiest but virtually impossible to retro fit.
> 
> Guirin according to poster
> 
> Arrogant why? because I disagree with some of the arguments being put forward. As at the moment the Algarve has little knowledge as to how tolls operate or the actual position of gates, it is possible to make local journeys on electronic tolled roads without being charged.
> 
> Where but in major cities is travel without a car easy in Portugal, I would not like to depend on public transport unless I lived on a main bus, coach or rail route.
> 
> Why would grant money be repaid to EU? Portugal is not the only EU country that has benefited from these grants, designed to improve a countries infrastructure and create a better EU transport network. there are many examples throughout EU for this funding.
> 
> If you are driver in the algarve and value safety, it is the only factor !!! I thought this applied to all Portuguese roads




Canoeman, your continuing refusal to acknowledge what is blindingly obvious to just about everybody else is starting to make you look ridiculous..... unless of course the allegation made a number of times previously, that you work for the government, is true.


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## canoeman

In your opinion, every case you make for the Algarve is equally true for every other Region in Portugal, they have all lost the fight against electronic tolls, so I don't see the Algarve winning as that would really put the Government in a difficult position and certainly create a far greater divide between the Algarve and the rest of Portugal.

OH Yes, allegations, so because I have opposing views to you and am prepared to express them I'm a Government spokesperson, are you therefore an anarchist for promoting breaking the law?


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## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> are you therefore an anarchist for promoting breaking the law?


Absolutely.


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## Waterdog

Isn't this all getting rather silly? 

I doubt Canoeman is a government spokesman, rather he appears to dislike the Algarve & from a number of previous threads, again chooses to promote a provocative view. 

Again seems to put him in a minority of one – a rather lonely position.

Opposing Canoeman’s point of view in no way suggest law breaking (unless Canoeman is the law?) & doesn’t make Lagosguy an anarchist.

All entertaining but adds nothing to a serious debate.

Once again I suggest that the proposed system for imposing tolls on major roads (A22 et al) will damage Portugal’s fragile economy.

On a recent visit to Lagos it became apparent that tourist related businesses are shutting up shop & local traders are expressing real concerns that for a variety of reasons, the forthcoming tolls will force them over the edge.

This forum will be viewed by many who are thinking of relocating to the Algarve. 

Portugal needs them. 

Given the content & tone of this thread are we aiding Portugal’s cause? 

Whether or not you like the Algarve, further damage to the Algarve’s economy cannot be in anybody’s interest.

I believe all should consider carefully the impression they portray before they post.

For me, Lagos/Algarve Portugal are great & I am looking forward to my future there. 

Rather than internal petty feuds, I believe this is the message we should be sending – loud & clear.


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## searover

" I don't see the Algarve winning as that would really put the Government in a difficult position" 
The government has put itself in this difficult position by not considering the implications of its actions. Just because it has implimented tolls in other areas does not mean it's right! Especially then to carry on in the face of the financial difficulties in the algarve!


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## lagosguy

searover said:


> " I don't see the Algarve winning as that would really put the Government in a difficult position"
> The government has put itself in this difficult position by not considering the implications of its actions. Just because it has implimented tolls in other areas does not mean it's right! Especially then to carry on in the face of the financial difficulties in the algarve!


Agreed. Talking about the Algarve "winning" is very juvenile; but unfortunately this type of attitude is what the government appears to be responding to.


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## Ingles

*Bit of Good New's*

If you are Resident in a area affected by the New Toll Scuts i.e. A22 - A23 - A24 - A25
You will be entitled to 10 Free Journey's per month & a 15% Discount on any other trips , this is ONLY for your residential are

Descontos Nas Portagens Ex- Scuts | Economia e Finanças


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## canoeman

Ingles said:


> If you are Resident in a area affected by the New Toll Scuts i.e. A22 - A23 - A24 - A25
> You will be entitled to 10 Free Journey's per month & a 15% Discount on any other trips , this is ONLY for your residential are
> 
> Descontos Nas Portagens Ex- Scuts | Economia e Finanças


You must also have a box like ViaVerde and register for free and discounted use

Roads and Camras entitled to discounts here
Portal Tráfego


----------



## searover

None of the above is any assistance for visitors in their own vehicles, who will not come to the algarve whilst this silly system prevails. No other country in the EU requires you to visit a post office or motorway services area and possibly have to queue as in most Portuguese correios in order to use its roads.


----------



## Waterdog

:clap2::clap2::clap2:Nice one searover you say it all.


----------



## robc

searover said:


> None of the above is any assistance for visitors in their own vehicles, who will not come to the algarve whilst this silly system prevails. No other country in the EU requires you to visit a post office or motorway services area and possibly have to queue as in most Portuguese correios in order to use its roads.


Having just got back to the UK from 2.5 weeks in Portugal I can confirm that the 2 post Offices I visited to pay my SCUT Tolls for my Journey down confirmed that in a Foreign Plated vehicle there is no way that it can be tracked and so therefore the tolls cannot be paid manually.

Seems a bit daft to me

Rob


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## Waterdog

Rob - so what do you propose to do now?


----------



## robc

Waterdog said:


> Rob - so what do you propose to do now?


I have 2 Via Verde boxes bought and installed in the 2 cars we own, this will serve us for future needs and one of the boxes performed as expected on the way back out of Portugal.

I have been mulling over what to do about the SCUT tolls on the way in, everyone we have spoken to including the Post Offices in Alcobaca and Leiria have said ignore the charges.

I am tempted to do this only after I have exhausted all other avenues

Anyone any ideas?

Rob


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## searover

I see it is confirmed in the press, toll implimentation on the A22 is the 8th December 2011 . But where are the signs on all slip roads that you are approaching a toll road? There are none round here.


----------



## lagosguy

searover said:


> I see it is confirmed in the press, toll implimentation on the A22 is the 8th December 2011 . But where are the signs on all slip roads that you are approaching a toll road? There are none round here.



So the government has given the car hire companies 10 days notice of the introduction of the tolls. Plenty of time for them to buy and fit the many hundreds of electronic boxes, which will be required for their cars, and to buy all the credit card machines, which will be needed to enable returning hirers to pay their tolls in the middle of the car park. No problem at all.  And before somebody suggests that the hire companies could have bought all this equipment in anticipation of the start date, let us not forget that there was a real possibility that the President would decline to ratify the government's proposals relating to the A22. The car hire companies would have been crazy to invest thousands of euros in equipment that might not be needed. Unfortunately the President does not appear to have immunity to current pandemic of Politicians' Missing Brain Syndrome and he hasn't had the sense or the courage to consign the proposal to its rightful place in the dustbin.

A number of posters criticised me for suggesting that sensible car hire companies would and should simply give the government two fingers, ignore the tolls entirely and leave it to their customers to cope as best they can. I hope they do that, particularly now that the government has placed them in an impossible position by implementing the tolls with almost no notice. A few months of chaos and online recriminations by foreign tourists, who have been stung by the Portuguese government, will be the quickest way of ensuring that the politicians reverse this misguided policy. If the hire companies try to make the system work it will limp along indefinitely doing far more long term damage to the tourist industry.


----------



## canoeman

searover said:


> I see it is confirmed in the press, toll implimentation on the A22 is the 8th December 2011 . But where are the signs on all slip roads that you are approaching a toll road? There are none round here.


Might not have been put up yet. There not that big and only show a car outline with radio waves pointing at it. White on blue background.

Currently nothing seems to be being done about foreign plated cars *not* fitting or *getting temporary* devices, whether that will continue once all tolls are active?

The cameras etc installed are more than capable of capturing *any* number plate, but it seems that however that information is processed for charging isn't. So for the time being foreign plated cars are ok, which doesn't mean they don't run the risk of being stopped and fined for not having a device.

robc, as you've been advised ignore them, as currently you wouldn't appear on the CTT charge system.


----------



## siobhanwf

lagosguy said:


> Finally, a 4.36% increase might seem like small beer to somebody with a nice income or pension; but to somebody on a low wage in the tourist industry, who has no alternative but to use the A22 to get to his(her) restaurant/bar/shop job in one of the resorts, it could be the difference between having a job and being unemployed.


Just out of interest what happened before the A22 was built? It hasn't always been there.
I have a neighbour who refuses to use ANY toll roads and drives regularly to the north to see his parent on the non mortorway roads.


----------



## canoeman

People used and still use N125


----------



## siobhanwf

Exactly Canoeman. I have two alternative routes in addition to the A15to drive from my Home to Caldas da Rainha and one is I choose to go to Santarem.
The Santarem one makes sense as it is a €2.35 tolls nut the toll for Caldas ia €0,75 guess I would use that up in wear and tear on the car and extra fuel on the back roads! So where is the saving?


----------



## Waterdog

Quote - OH Yes, allegations, so because I have opposing views to you and am prepared to express them I'm a Government spokesperson, are you therefore an anarchist for promoting breaking the law?

Canoeman, you will recognise the above quote. Having accused Lagosguy of being an anarchist for advocating breaking the law, surely you are not advising Rob C to disregard & thereby break the law; isn’t this inciting anarchy - a very serious offence?

Or do you just like running with the hares whilst hunting with the hounds.

This girl is very confused!


----------



## siobhanwf

Waterdog said:


> Quote - OH Yes, allegations, so because I have opposing views to you and am prepared to express them I'm a Government spokesperson, are you therefore an anarchist for promoting breaking the law?
> 
> Canoeman, you will recognise the above quote. Having accused Lagosguy of being an anarchist for advocating breaking the law, surely you are not advising Rob C to disregard & thereby break the law; isn’t this inciting anarchy - a very serious offence?
> 
> Or do you just like running with the hares whilst hunting with the hounds.
> 
> This girl is very confused!


Right Waterdog I have asked you to play nice. Please no personal comments.


----------



## robc

Waterdog said:


> Quote - OH Yes, allegations, so because I have opposing views to you and am prepared to express them I'm a Government spokesperson, are you therefore an anarchist for promoting breaking the law?
> 
> Canoeman, you will recognise the above quote. Having accused Lagosguy of being an anarchist for advocating breaking the law, surely you are not advising Rob C to disregard & thereby break the law; isn’t this inciting anarchy - a very serious offence?
> 
> Or do you just like running with the hares whilst hunting with the hounds.
> 
> This girl is very confused!


I appreciate your erudite views, I have in the past appreciated Canoeman's advice which has proved very helpful.

I do not see how this is any form of incitement, the issue is clear, the way forward not so.

Whilst ignorance is not a defence in Law and I am not ignorant of this law there is a specific situation here, namely, there is no facility for a foreign citizen to comply. This needs to be addressed................................Do you have any suggestions?

They would be appreciated.

Rob


----------



## robc

siobhanwf said:


> Right Waterdog I have asked you to play nice. Please no personal comments.


Hi Siobhan

Good Trip?


Rob


----------



## canoeman

Your "friend" lagosguy sum advice to tolls on A22 or elsewhere is not to pay them, "isn’t this inciting anarchy - a very serious offence?

I'm stating the current conditions, that for whatever the reason "foreign" car plates do *not* show up on the CTT system for payment of tolls. I also point out that "foreign" plated cars still run the risk of being stopped and fined for *not* following current payment options.


You just seem to like muddying water


----------



## Vicks

At the moment there are no signs (covered or uncovered) on the approach to the A22 from Faro airport indicating it is a toll road. As this is the major route people will be taking then someone needs to get a move on. Of course, if they decide to locate the signs just before the motorway then drivers will have missed the alternative and even more confusion will reign. Mind you, if they locate them before the 125 it is still likely to cause confusion especially to first time visitors as it's not a brilliant junction.

In response to the point about what people did before the A22 (IP1) was built, then, of course, the 125 was used - BUT, there were nowhere near so many cars on the road. However, the congestion at certain points was horrendous.

I'm in agreement with many posters that I have no personal objection to the tolls providing there is a convenient way of paying them and there isn't.

Vicks


----------



## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> People used and still use N125


.... and there were so many accidents, deaths and injuries on the road that it was called the "Road of Death". That's precisely why the A22 was built. 

For those with short memories, here is an article that the Daily Telegraph published in 2008 just after the A22 opened, comparing the Algarve before and after. Portugal: Has the tide turned for the Algarve? - Telegraph. 

For the sake of a few euros in income (and that's all it will amount to when the road been deserted by most users and when all the offsetting costs have been taken into account) the government is happy for the Algarve to return to its pre-A22 state and for the N125 carnage to start over again. Utter lunacy.


----------



## Ingles

I have only been on the A22 4 times as I no longer live in the Algarve ,but I do vividly remember my many Airport runs on the 125 in the 90's,we had 2 change over days Thursday & Saturday.
Thursday trip time ave 2.5 hours each way , Saturday the worst I had was 3 hours going & 5.5 coming back due to a pile up at Lagoa.
This will all come back as sure as egg's are egg's
Good Luck !


----------



## searover

So we now have for visitors with there own vehicles. No practical way of paying tolls on the A22.
Road signs if they get installed in time, warning in Portugals own peculiar sign language and the chance if they miss read the signs( Confused with speed camera ). They may be stopped and fined by the police. Welcome to Portugal !!


----------



## searover

Ah! Have just seen a new sign (with a black plastic bag over it). I suspect it is a toll road warning sign. It is not on the A22 sign on the approach to a roundabout, but after you have turned 25 metres up the single carriageway with no turning places for 2.5 kilometes to the A22 slip road. Welcome to Portugal !!!


----------



## Waterdog

Searover, have you thought of using, "Welcome to Portugal!!" as your signature?


----------



## searover

Waterdog, Has everyone gone home???


----------



## siobhanwf

searover said:


> Waterdog, Has everyone gone home???


No searover ....just fired up the computer....had to go to bed ZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## searover

Hi
I have just had lengthy conversations with two campervan friends in the UK, they usually visit us in Portugal each year in the spring via the A22 from Spain. Their trip involves a toll free journey down through Spain. They feel the imposition and complication of tolls on a usually toll free road will deter them visiting us next year. And they have no desire to drive the N125!!
Welcome to Portugal !!!


----------



## Surfin USA

Hi,
As I said earlier, am planning to sail down to Portugal next Spring & get a camper to research Iberia with a view to resettling near by the sea. 

Doesn't look very long so is the 125 really that bad?


----------



## searover

Hi 
It will be! A lot of the algarve economy is cash without identity(or perhaps tax), the toll road requires identity this will not go down well with the locals. So the locals will be on N125. 
Welcome to Portugal!!!


----------



## Surfin USA

Hi,

Searover, from your name reckon, you could be a sailor?

If you have accessed my messages you will know that I plan to sail south next Spring, get a camper and check out Iberia before buying a pad & relocating. Even we Americans are cost conscious so won't get the camper in Portugal (too expensive), rather France, Spain or the UK.

Have followed the discussion on the tolls with interest. Understand that the A22 is now a toll road but that's no problem, it's the way they are collected that is causing grief, particularly for visitors with non-Portuguese plates? Unfortunately the N125 doesn't appear fit-for-purpose?

Question, I was thinking of basing myself in one of The Algarve marinas but following this toll thing, would I be better considering Gibraltar or around Cadiz?

Would value your thoughts on marinas etc?

I will ask a similar question on the Spanish element of the expatforum.

Finally, do you know of any good chat-rooms focussing on sailors in Southern Europe?


----------



## canoeman

It really isn't the problem you think, if you have a Portuguese, Fiscal number and bank account then you can buy and use a ViaVerde box for a non Portuguese registered vehicle. Which makes travel on A22 or any toll road in Portugal easy.

There is a but to your intention of not buying a camper in Portugal, understandable because of price but are you Amercian?? or an EU citizen, one gives you a Visa issue and the other a length of stay issue.


----------



## searover

"Searover, from your name reckon, you could be a sailor?"
I was a sailor once!! Try YBW.com (liveaboard forum) This could give you some marina info on various threads. 
I think Canoeman still does not understand the visitors toll plight !!! Portuguese Fiscal Numbers are not available in the UK before setting off on holiday!!
Welcome to Portugal!!


----------



## canoeman

searover said:


> I think Canoeman still does not understand the visitors toll plight !!! Portuguese Fiscal Numbers are not available in the UK before setting off on holiday!!
> Welcome to Portugal!!


Do you?, I am well aware of how system works and difficulty for non registered Portuguese visitors, but surfing USA is talking about staying and exploring Portugal and Spain, it is not then difficult to get a fiscal number, which he would reguire for bank a/c or to purchase car here and lots of other things, as he would equally reguire certain things to be able to buy a car in Spain or France.


----------



## Surfin USA

Hi Guys,

Thanks a bunch for all of your thoughts & advice.

In the past, when visiting Portugal for a fairly protracted period, as a US citizen, I had no problems with visas nor did I have a Portuguese bank account or fiscal number & it all worked fine.

As, initially, I just plan to investigate Portugal & do not intend to buy a car or any more than day-to-day needs, why would I want a Portuguese bank account or fiscal number this time?

Courtesy of Old Uncle Sam I have some experience of Andalusia & Rota in particular. Again I didn’t have a Spanish bank account or Spanish documentation but this didn’t cause any problems getting a truck. Finally, here in the UK, I have a vehicle & use a US license – no problems. The color of the greenback still seems to work some magic.

However, on your advice, I have made some preliminary enquiries & understand that without an address in Portugal I cannot get a fiscal number, moreover, boats & campers don’t count?

Spoke to some US buddies currently in Portugal who say that relative to Spain, Portugal is becoming increasingly expensive, partly due to the difference in VAT & fuel duty.

Their advice was to take a look-see at Portugal but be very cautious about buying into the country & whenever possible, steer clear of Portuguese bureaucracy. They also say they intend to stay away from the motorways until this toll thing is sorted out – hopefully before next spring/summer.

Based on advice I am getting it would seem sensible to base myself in Spain & look at Portugal from there.

Any further thoughts?


----------



## searover

"It really isn't the problem you think, if you have a Portuguese, Fiscal number and bank account then you can buy and use a ViaVerde box for a non Portuguese registered vehicle. Which makes travel on A22 or any toll road in Portugal easy."

Another Portuguese joke !!!
I tried to get toll widget for a friend who is visiting soon, from our local post office. They said I must produce the car documents which at present are in the UK with the car!!!!!

Welcome to Portugal!!!!


----------



## searover

Surfin USA
Don't forget to turn left after you cross the bridge, Welcome to Portugal!!


----------



## searover

I see in the press Via Verde is holding a press conference on the tolls in Faro on friday good timing?
Welcome to Portugal!!!


----------



## canoeman

searover said:


> "It really isn't the problem you think, if you have a Portuguese, Fiscal number and bank account then you can buy and use a ViaVerde box for a non Portuguese registered vehicle. Which makes travel on A22 or any toll road in Portugal easy."
> 
> Another Portuguese joke !!!
> I tried to get toll widget for a friend who is visiting soon, from our local post office. They said I must produce the car documents which at present are in the UK with the car!!!!!
> 
> Welcome to Portugal!!!!


Maybe you should have first found out from CTT or ViaVerde how to get and what documents or information was needed for a "widget" for a UK car, and saved yourself a trip.


----------



## searover

canoeman said:


> Maybe you should have first found out from CTT or ViaVerde how to get and what documents or information was needed for a "widget" for a UK car, and saved yourself a trip.


I rest my case!! All this effort in order to just drive a car from A to B on a road in Portugal!!! Total madness!!


----------



## Ingles

canoeman said:


> Maybe you should have first found out from CTT or ViaVerde how to get and what documents or information was needed for a "widget" for a UK car, and saved yourself a trip.


My dear Sir ,As your obviously the Expert on all Portugues Legislation - Rules & Regulations to do with basically everything & a very strong supporter & defender of the 4 different systems put into place to collect these Toll's
It seems very remiss on YOUR part that you failed to post the required information to obtain a "widget" for a UK Registered Car
Please could you kindly do so ASAP
Best Regards
Ingles


----------



## canoeman

Sure your more than capable with your Portuguese language skills to help searover out, would you walk into a UK Post Office and ask for a "widget" for a Portuguese car that wasn't in the country, and you didn't have paperwork for? so why on earth would he expect to do the same here for a UK car.

Reminds me of friends who where most put out that their local Portuguese Post Office didn't have the forms to renew their UK Passports.


----------



## siobhanwf

searover said:


> "It really isn't the problem you think, if you have a Portuguese, Fiscal number and bank account then you can buy and use a ViaVerde box for a non Portuguese registered vehicle. Which makes travel on A22 or any toll road in Portugal easy."
> 
> Another Portuguese joke !!!
> I tried to get toll widget for a friend who is visiting soon, from our local post office. They said I must produce the car documents which at present are in the UK with the car!!!!!
> 
> Welcome to Portugal!!!!


Searover just a small question 
Do you live here full time?


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> Sure your more than capable with your Portuguese language skills to help searover out, would you walk into a UK Post Office and ask for a "widget" for a Portuguese car that wasn't in the country, and you didn't have paperwork for? so why on earth would he expect to do the same here for a UK car.
> 
> Reminds me of friends who where most put out that their local Portuguese Post Office didn't have the forms to renew their UK Passports.


Totally agree with Canoe.......I got my 2 x via verde boxes easily, hit the web site armed with chrome and sent in the required papers in advance and then they sent request for payment which we made via MB and away we go.
The one small snag is still the SCUT, I have tried my utmost to pay for the tolls on the way down but I am admitting defeat as no-one I contact in Portugal knows how a foreign registered car will be recognised. I have made contact with Via Verde employees via our neighbours and they do not know.

Hey ho

Rob


----------



## canoeman

Relax, they won't know, although I'll probably be told I'm inviting you to break the law again, currently Foreign Registered vehicles are being ignored and no action has been taken as far as I know, it is only Portuguese plated cars that are being fined for non payment.
Situation might change now as tolls have been virtually rolled out, so much more money at stake.

If you want to be totally honest and above board you could go to the CTT and make a purchase for a one way journey to Porto airport or similar.


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> Relax, they won't know, although I'll probably be told I'm inviting you to break the law again, currently Foreign Registered vehicles are being ignored and no action has been taken as far as I know, it is only Portuguese plated cars that are being fined for non payment.
> Situation might change now as tolls have been virtually rolled out, so much more money at stake.
> 
> If you want to be totally honest and above board you could go to the CTT and make a purchase for a one way journey to Porto airport or similar.


I may do that when I am next over, I doubt I will be alone on this!!!!!

Rob


----------



## canoeman

You can do it online if your conscience is pricking you


----------



## Waterdog

Cutting to the chase, as far as we can tell the A22 is now a toll road so looking forward to any updates on the experiences of foreign plated cars & visitors/hire cars?

No doubt the various problems will quickly surface.

For the A22, probably over the Christmas break with the seasonal rush of Spanish tourists. Hopefully these teething problems will be quickly resolved to the satisfaction of all.

As they say practical experience rapidly consigns theories to the dustbin of history.

Re Fiscal Nubers; I too have received similar advice, so I would also be interested to see any practical help offered to Surfin USA, regarding visitors without a mailing address obtaining a fiscal number & then a Portuguese Bank account. To date, I have operated without either; just have an UK bank account & this has worked OK.

Searover - from the tone of your latest posts, as a sailor, I suspect you too have had problems getting a fiscal number?

Currently, as I spend less than 183 days a year in Portugal, the tax/resident legal liabilities do not apply.

Hope I am not straying too far off thread?

Woof


----------



## Surfin USA

We could start a new thread on this topic?

I have just been advised by one source that for a non-resident, without a Portuguese mailing address, you have to employ a lawyer to vouch for every transaction & that doesn't come cheap!

Alternatively, another source advises that whilst this is the current situation, this requirement will not be required after the start of 2012?

Yours sincerely, Very Confused


----------



## canoeman

You should go over Surfin USA postings and what he intended doing, I didn't say he had to have a bank a/c but if anyone intends visiting for long periods it certainly makes life easier.

Fiscal numbers you don't have to have one as a visitor but you do if you want to buy a car or property. You don't as an EU citizen and have never had to have a Portuguese address, you only require a Passport and appox €7, Surfing as a US citizen would reguire a Fiscal Representative here, should he decide to get one, so the address aspect doesn't apply.

Surfin.. information you have been given is only partially correct
As a non EU Citizen then you would reguire a Fiscal Representative, they don't have to sanction everything , they are the Tax mans contact point for your Portuguese Tax affairs and as such could be liable for any tax debts you might accrue, and didn't pay. It doesn't have to be a solicitor, just a Portuguese Resident.
It only changes for EU Citizens in 2012 when the Tax Code will be officially amended to cover this years ruling on Fiscal Representation.


----------



## Surfin USA

Canoeman, thanks for all of the advice, I assume your last post was for Waterdog or Searover rather than me?

What is the €7 for?

Understand that if I wanted a fiscal number, currently I would require a Fiscal Representative (lawyer?) but this will not apply in the New Year. Got this last bit from a fellow American Yachtsman?

As Andalusia could be beckoning, possible will never have to use the A22 or N125.

Sir, I suspect you have a keyboard problem as you always post require as ‘reguire’ & these 2 keys are not close?

Still very confused.


----------



## Surfin USA

Canoeman, sorry, I responded before you had edited your last.

Can't see that I would ever renounce my US citizenship (too bigger insurance policy) but could consider dual residency in the future.


----------



## searover

siobhanwf said:


> Searover just a small question
> Do you live here full time?


Do you mean Fiscally or Physically. The answer to both is practically. Both in Spain and Portugal.


----------



## ferragudofan

eeek! every time I think I've read it all about the A22 tolls - I read more
wilting in the heat here!
have tried to summarise on my blog - if you fancy a read! 22 bad things about the A22 Tolls | Algarve Blog
and all comments and updates are very welcome here ..
I am sure this one will roll on for quite a while yet...


----------



## Ingles

Surfin USA said:


> We could start a new thread on this topic?
> 
> I have just been advised by one source that for a non-resident, without a Portuguese mailing address, you have to employ a lawyer to vouch for every transaction & that doesn't come cheap!
> 
> Alternatively, another source advises that whilst this is the current situation, this requirement will not be required after the start of 2012?
> 
> *Yours sincerely, Very Confused*


:clap2: That just about sums up the state Portugal is in a the present!


----------



## searover

ferragudofan said:


> eeek! every time I think I've read it all about the A22 tolls - I read more
> wilting in the heat here!
> have tried to summarise on my blog - if you fancy a read! 22 bad things about the A22 Tolls | Algarve Blog
> and all comments and updates are very welcome here ..
> I am sure this one will roll on for quite a while yet...


Great blog well documented !! 
Should be compulsory reading for some posters on this thread . Perhaps you should title it " Welcome to Portugal!! "


----------



## canoeman

The A22 is only 1 road in Portugal, compulsory reading if the information was 100% accurate, unfortunately it isn't so it just creates further confusion by perpetuating misinformation.


----------



## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> The A22 is only 1 road in Portugal, compulsory reading if the information was 100% accurate, unfortunately it isn't so it just creates further confusion by perpetuating misinformation.


:yawn:


----------



## Ingles

searover said:


> Great blog well documented !!
> Should be compulsory reading for some posters on this thread . Perhaps you should title it " Welcome to Portugal!! "


:thumb:100% Agree - But sadly there's alway's somebody ready to pick holes, why ?


----------



## canoeman

:clap2::clap2:see your both up to your usual standard of response.

Whether you like it or not the information in the blog is inaccurate and does nothing to clarify the situation, just fuels narrow minded views.


----------



## Waterdog

Ferragudofan - you name confirms your involvement. Having closely read your blog with interest I must ask Canoeman what are the specific elements he finds are in error?

True the A22 is only one road in Portugal but given the state of the A125, to the Algarve tourist industry & commerce in general, the A22 is the all-important road.

Take one freethinking contributor, Surfin USA, plans to relocate in Iberia next year; initially he seemed to favour The Algarve, but given all of this potential hassle, he is now appears to be looking towards Andalusia as his first choice.

I note, as he promised, he is now posting on the Spanish net to seek the Spanish views of these tolls & other issues. 

How many more can Portugal afford to frighten off?

Canoeman, I respect you as one who epitomises attention to detail & accuracy so I look forward to your dissection of Ferragudofan’s blog & where it goes wrong, putting the record straight.


----------



## canoeman

Point 1. For a Portuguese car it is not ridiculously complicated, there are a variety of well documented ways to pay, it is not compulsory to buy a transponder, of course different gates have different costs as it depends on kms.
Point 2. It might have taken a year, but it was a forgone conclusion that it would happen, many did buy their transponders in advance, and were prepared. Others chose to believe that the Algarve was much too important to face the same tolls as the rest of the country.
Point 3. So the N125 is behind schedule, what's new there.
Point 4. That won't get any where as the EU grant used for part funding said 7 years before tolls could be introduced. 

Good luck to Surfin USA just shows you what misinformation about tolls can do. I'm sure he'll be relieved to know that there are Spanish tolls, but easier to pay because currently still ticket and booths.


----------



## ferragudofan

hello! I am delighted by all your comments - I have not purported that the blog post is the 'definitive' answer to information the tolls - far from it - it's my collection of thoughts and information from all over the web - and is designed to get you talking - which it is definitely doing! And all your comments are very appreciated too - good bad and indifferent!
i think it just goes to show that it *is* complicated - most people are not against the tolls per se - but it is the system that has been introduced and whether you are a resident, visitor or tourist - it affects us all... cash and booths would have been simpler in some ways - but there are so many check points it would have made journeys much more difficult too - I still think if it was a 'revenue' driven exercise then adding cents to a litre of fuel would have been much simpler....
and the only thing I would like to take issue with is the idea that I am 'narrow minded' - I can assure you I am far from that - check out some other articles on the blog - I am very interested in the place I now live and want to dig deep and get the 'marrow out of the bones'.. and also encourage healthy debate and conversation...
so over to you......... !!


----------



## canoeman

If you note I didn't say you where narrow minded, but the blog "just fuels narrow minded views"


----------



## lagosguy

canoeman said:


> If you note I didn't say you where narrow minded, but the blog "just fuels narrow minded views"


What he means is that there are quite a lot of us who don't accept his view that the tolls are a wonderful, well thought-out addition to Portugual's fantastic tax system and that the Algarve is belatedly receiving its come-uppance for getting above itself and daring to believe that it actually contributes more to the Portuguese economy than other parts of Portugal and should be treated accordingly. 

We narrow-minded people won't stop misleading others by suggesting that the government has introduced a dog's dinner of a toll system that cannot be implemented in the car hire environment without the active and costly (to them) involvement of the car hire companies, that the tolls will probably be ignored by foreign plated cars (with impunity in the case of the Spanish drivers whose government considers the tolls to be illegal), that car hire companies acted sensibly because they refused to start spending money in anticipation of a law that might or might not be introduced at some time in the future, that the government stupidly set a start date for the A22 tolls, which was far too early to allow car hire companies to prepare themselves and for motorists to obtain and fit the required electronic boxes, that the tolls fail to recognise the indisputable difference between Portugal's premier tourist destination and other parts of the country, and that is likely to cost as much, if not more, to run the toll system than the income it will bring in (because of the reduced usage of the A22 and the resulting increase in compensation to the SCUT operators, the increased maintenance, injuries, accidents and deaths on the N125 and the reduction in tourism income that will occur when tourists realise that the government sees them merely as cash-cows who can be milked by tolls and 23% IVA on their accommodation, food and golf). 

**********************************.


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## canoeman

might as well use your favorite expression saves a lot of writing.


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## Ingles

lagosguy said:


> What he means is that there are quite a lot of us who don't accept his view that the tolls are a wonderful, well thought-out addition to Portugual's fantastic tax system and that the Algarve is belatedly receiving its come-uppance for getting above itself and daring to believe that it actually contributes more to the Portuguese economy than other parts of Portugal and should be treated accordingly.
> 
> We narrow-minded people won't stop misleading others by suggesting that the government has introduced a dog's dinner of a toll system that cannot be implemented in the car hire environment without the active and costly (to them) involvement of the car hire companies, that the tolls will probably be ignored by foreign plated cars (with impunity in the case of the Spanish drivers whose government considers the tolls to be illegal), that car hire companies acted sensibly because they refused to start spending money in anticipation of a law that might or might not be introduced at some time in the future, that the government stupidly set a start date for the A22 tolls, which was far too early to allow car hire companies to prepare themselves and for motorists to obtain and fit the required electronic boxes, that the tolls fail to recognise the indisputable difference between Portugal's premier tourist destination and other parts of the country, and that is likely to cost as much, if not more, to run the toll system than the income it will bring in (because of the reduced usage of the A22 and the resulting increase in compensation to the SCUT operators, the increased maintenance, injuries, accidents and deaths on the N125 and the reduction in tourism income that will occur when tourists realise that the government sees them merely as cash-cows who can be milked by tolls and 23% IVA on their accommodation, food and golf).
> 
> We are deluded and, as in any debate on these forums, on whatever subject, the one person who is right is he who paddles his own canoe.


:clap2:Reported in the PT Press this morning that 20.000 Hire Cars have used the Scut System nation wide & not paid any fees
This is going to be a very interesting developement to follow
**************** !
p.s lagosguy :- good post


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## searover

I think the brief answer says it all. Not the usual kayak yak yak !!
Welcome to Portugal !!


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## Ingles

With Thanks to "Useless" who made the following comment when he posted this link
_"The pantomime season is upon us" _

Algarve Resident - the REAL Algarve Resident - 1st for News, information and classifieds - Clarity still missing following start of A22 tolls


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## searover

Ingles said:


> With Thanks to "Useless" who made the following comment when he posted this link
> _"The pantomime season is upon us" _
> 
> Algarve Resident - the REAL Algarve Resident - 1st for News, information and classifieds - Clarity still missing following start of A22 tolls


How is anyone other than those of us who live in Portugal ever going to believe that report!!! Welcome to Portugal!!!


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## siobhanwf

*Hot off the press*

A22 Tolls. According to information received today, if you don’t have a transponder, from January you will be able to pay your tolls at any Multi Bank machine by entering your car number plate details. You will also be able to pay via home banking using the Multi Bank option. You will have 5 days to do this without penalties, after that, you pay fines.


According to The Portugal News


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