# Tax- when's best month to relocate



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

This prob is a daft question- won't be my first- but for timing it for tax purposes ( when you need to register and start paying) is there a best period of the year in which to move over there and start the 183 days???


haven't explained that very well have I!!!!


Ps title should be -Tax when's BEST month to relocate


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> This prob is a daft question- won't be my first- but for timing it for tax purposes ( when you need to register and start paying) is there a best period of the year in which to move over there and start the 183 days???
> 
> 
> haven't explained that very well have I!!!!
> ...


My plan after 13 years of avoiding becoming spanish tax liable is to :


Slow down my economic activity to an absolute minimum January to March - the overlap of tax year period.
Document my main abode as being outside Spain prior to the change over.
To be out of spain over the new year to combat any suggestion that I was already established there. Important if you had any UK tax free activity in the previous 12 months that could be subject to Spanish tax.
Simplify my savings, investments, ISAs, SIPPs well before December.
Declare my Spanish arrival for long term stay and thus tax liability occurred after January 1st.

Could be considered a bit over the top but I trust spanish authorities and spanish lawyers about as far as I can throw an elephant and best to be on the safe side as I'm not stinking rich 

So I'd say it doesn't matter when as long as you have clarity over when it began and are clear any 25% pension take, house sale, share sales (bed & breakfast so no need to get rid of them if you do not wish to) are definitely without doubt complete and documented before your spanish tax liability begins.

And a late January start gives you time to sort the admin hassle when it is not 40 degrees and heaving with tourists (depending on where you are heading of course). 

But it is manly commonsense so don't let it spoil the enjoyment 

ps Rabbitcat not sure that is any clearer than your post but hope it makes some sense :eyebrows:


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Thanks Alborino- believe me virtually all posts make more sense than mine!!!!

I was just wondering re timing in respect of what month returns are due etc

I don't think I will have much liability anyway but understand the form still must be completed


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Thanks Alborino- believe me virtually all posts make more sense than mine!!!!
> 
> I was just wondering re timing in respect of what month returns are due etc
> 
> I don't think I will have much liability anyway but understand the form still must be completed


Well that is another argument for January or early in the Spanish tax year. Remember that tax relates to a year.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

As far as your personal tax is concerned the 1st July is about the best, otherwise you become tax resident in the year that you move and from 1st July you will not clock up more than 183 days in that tax year.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> As far as your personal tax is concerned the 1st July is about the best, otherwise you become tax resident in the year that you move and from 1st July you will not clock up more than 183 days in that tax year.


True, if ONLY TAX is taken into account. I figure also weather and seasonal price fluctuations and plan on arriving in October. 

Summer in Swedish countryside is - usually - lovely and in any case far less brutal than in Spain and rental prices on housing are lower.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> As far as your personal tax is concerned the 2nd/3rd July assuming no previous days in Spain that year is about the best, otherwise you become tax resident in the year that you move and from 2nd/3rd July you will not clock up more than 183 days in that tax year.


Baldilocks assuming by relocate we are saying that your main residence and centre of being is in Spain I'd be very careful with this. 

You could be open to:

"You arrive in Spain with an intention to reside there indefinitely. You will then be tax-resident from the day after you arrive. "

And while additional rules to the 183 day rule have not been widely used in the past I can only see the authorities grabbing any revenue opportunity in the future


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

alborino said:


> Baldilocks assuming by relocate we are saying that your main residence and centre of being is in Spain I'd be very careful with this.
> 
> You could be open to:
> 
> ...


In which case the 183 rule is of no use to most expats who move to Spain permanently.
They will ALL be considered tax residents from the day they arrive?


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

extranjero said:


> In which case the 183 rule is of no use to most expats who move to Spain permanently.
> They will ALL be considered tax residents from the day they arrive?


Yes it is a real risk, they can refer to "centre of vital interests".

Also if say you send your wife/husband and kids to Spain and you commute. Although you are not there for 183 days they can still judge you liable for tax based on "centre of vital interests".


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## SandraP (Apr 23, 2014)

So, when would be the best time to sell a UK property and move over to Spain and possibly buy a property there?
His lordship is looking into cashing in his pension(s) and selling up here to move before he reaches pensionable age on 3rd October 2021. We know about the cash requirement which is why he is looking into how much his pension would be worth and whether we could afford to live off that and any money we will have left after the sale of our house & purchase of a property somewhere on Costa de la Luz for about 5 to 6 years.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

The year before you move to Spain


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

SandraP said:


> So, when would be the best time to sell a UK property and move over to Spain and possibly buy a property there?
> His lordship is looking into cashing in his pension(s) and selling up here to move before he reaches pensionable age on 3rd October 2021. We know about the cash requirement which is why he is looking into how much his pension would be worth and whether we could afford to live off that and any money we will have left after the sale of our house & purchase of a property somewhere on Costa de la Luz for about 5 to 6 years.


I think you need to carefully separate the year you cash pensions and sell a house. Clearly you need to avoid the 183 day rule but also that you do not get tripped up by "centre of vital interests".

So in my case :

Before the 31st December I will have sold my UK house, extracted 25% tax free from all pension pots, evened up SIPPs between myself and my wife, bed and breakfasted all ISA shares. All completed in Spanish tax year 2015.

On the 31st December 2015 and 1st January 2016 I will not be in Spain (not sure that is necessary but it keeps it clean in the sense at that point I have no plans to permanently reside in Spain).

On the 31st December 2015 and 1st January 2016 I will have a documented main residence in the UK. (This in part is because my wife has a flat in Spain already and I do not want any thought that I live there for long periods. I don't and it is registered and tax paid as a property of overseas person).

The reason I think care is needed is not only the recent changes in rules. And the fact the 183 day rule reads (as I see it) that if you are there 183 days you are liable and not as some interpret it that if you are not there for 183 days you are exempt. But also because I have seen it reported that the law has left some room for different regions to add variance and removing cash for unpaid tax from bank accounts is an accepted norm.

Sorry should have said get the UK sorted and take all tax benefits (that you have paid for already, this is not tax avoidance in any form). Let a year end tick by Then move to Spain


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

extranjero said:


> The year before you move to Spain


Or what extranjero said with such precision  I'll get my coat.


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## SandraP (Apr 23, 2014)

Thank you 
Looks like we will have to rent somewhere in the UK at the end of the year before the year we wish to move then


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

Isn't it the case that if you move to Spain in mid July and become permanently resident then you won't become a tax resident until the next year?


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

SandraP said:


> Thank you
> Looks like we will have to rent somewhere in the UK at the end of the year before the year we wish to move then


Or use a family members address? I'm going to stay with my brother then he has to buy the turkey, crackers, cava, port, Xmas pud, etc. Sounds good to me but he still seems to have a few doubts


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

ddrysdale99 said:


> Isn't it the case that if you move to Spain in mid July and become permanently resident then you won't become a tax resident until the next year?


ddrysdale99 the problem is that it *might *be the case. But the rules are changing, are open to interpretation, and Spain's need to grab revenue is even more acute. Would you want to take the risk if you could be open to a large tax bill ? You can still spend most of your time in Spain so unless you have a job waiting it is no big deal to get the timing right


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Wouldn't it be better , when posters ask about tax residency, to say that if you are planning nto move to Spain permanently as most pensioner ex pats are, to say to will be liable for tax as soon as your feet touch Spanish soil?
The advice generally given is to move after the 2nd of July , but really it isn't right, is it?


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Wouldn't it be better , when posters ask about tax residency, to say that if you are planning nto move to Spain permanently as most pensioner ex pats are, to say to will be liable for tax as soon as your feet touch Spanish soil?
> The advice generally given is to move after the 2nd of July , but really it isn't right, is it?


It sounds like you "may" be liable for tax for the whole calendar year in which you move regardless of the 183 day rule. So that's before your feet touch Spanish soil.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

ddrysdale99 said:


> It sounds like you "may" be liable for tax for the whole calendar year in which you move regardless of the 183 day rule. So that's before your feet touch Spanish soil.


I think you're right
If any one asks, 1 am not going to mention the 183 rule now, as it does not apply to most


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## Kezar001 (Mar 29, 2014)

Thank you all reading this thread with interest as we are planning to retire this year and spend more time in spain.

Am I right in thinking that if we spend less than 3 months in spain this year, come back to UK for Xmas and new year and then return to Spain for kings day and beyond we would not be considered tax liable until 6 months of next year I.e. End of June ?

The tax residency is important for us as our house is in murcia which has dreadful potential IHT consequences for us


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Kezar001 said:


> Thank you all reading this thread with interest as we are planning to retire this year and spend more time in spain.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that if we spend less than 3 months in spain this year, come back to UK for Xmas and new year and then return to Spain for kings day and beyond we would not be considered tax liable until 6 months of next year I.e. End of June ?
> 
> The tax residency is important for us as our house is in murcia which has dreadful potential IHT consequences for us


Kezar try and get away from day counting. Ask yourself was the 3 months in Spain a holiday or could it be interpreted as a permanent move? Ask yourself is the Xmas/New Year trip back to the UK a return to your main residence and center of activity or a short holiday?

I would also ignore being tax resident for part of a year. Think in whole tax years and then you should be safe from any misinterpretation. 

The issue as I see it is you do not need to avoid double taxation. But you need to avoid needlessly being taxed in Spain on one off transactions that are tax free in the UK. 

Your plan looks good on the surface to me but I'd maintain an address in the UK into the new year if I was you. That doesn't mean you need to own a house of course 

As I see it Spain, in terms of the government, hacienda, lawyers, accountants, ...... is never going to give you a definite about any future interpretation of their own laws/rules (and hell I've tried with all the help of a spanish family ). Therefore best take water tight precautions and then you can relax and enjoy everything good that Spain has to offer. I know some will say "there is no way they could find out" or "I'll slip over the border for a day" and yes they are right that the chances of being caught are minimal but for me life is too short and it really isn't rocket science or even in most cases very difficult to remove the dangers


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

ddrysdale99 said:


> Isn't it the case that if you move to Spain in mid July and become permanently resident then you won't become a tax resident until the next year?


This is what is always quoted, but if you move to Spain to retire, sell your house, pack up your goods, book the removal company,then your centre of interests is obviously in Spain. 
So for the majority, I would say you are tax resident for Jan -Dec of that year, regardless of when you actually arrive in Spain.
It seems the 183 day rule is more applicable for those mwho intend to spend a few years in Spain developing a business, not for early retirees and pensioners.
It's easy to say make sure all your insurances, pension pots mature in the year before you come, but some of these are planned to mature at intervals throughout retirement. Your aged parent could die years after you move here, and leave you an inheritance sum and the Spanish taxman will take a chunk, unless you want to take the risk of not declaring it.
Years ago people moved here with ought a thought about arriving at the best time to avoid taxes, lump sums inheritances were received without worry about declaring them to the Hacienda.
Ignorance was bliss, and still is for some folk.
Kezar001. - we can only hope that the powers that be recognise the horrendously unfair situation re IHT in Murcia and do something to level out the differences.
Eg every region has % payment, preferably spouse exempt.
If that ruffles the feathers of the "I'm alright Jac"k expats who sit in a region with very generous allowances, so be it.
At least it would be fairer!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Bottom line is if you still have an address back home you have every right to claim your initial period in Spain is checking the place out, acclimatising , "extended break" - call it what you want


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Rabbitcat said:


> Bottom line is if you still have an address back home you have every right to claim your initial period in Spain is checking the place out, acclimatising , "extended break" - call it what you want


Often people with an address in the UK move permanently to Spain.
If you have your possessions moved over, become a resident, sign on the Spanish tax system, you can hardly say " we're just seeing if we like it."
I bet some did come out here saying this, not signing on the foreigners register, or registering for tax, but that's more risky now.
Some use that UK home, live in Spain, and still visit their UK GP which is an abuse of the system
Some rent their UK home , often not realising they have to pay tax in Spain, and also if they don't rent it out - imputed income.
I'm afraid there is a concession of "Try before you buy" in Spain!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well I will have an address here and will rent in Spain long term. Of course after 6 months I will have to sign up to tax but certainly won't be rushing to do anything before that

There's also an element of a mixture between paranoia of the Spanish tax mans pursuit of foreigners and an almost " Boy Scout holier than thou " vibe by some.

Relax, chill. 

Yes there's rules to be abided by but I doubt non working non claiming long term renters are top of the target list for Pedro the evil tax dodger bounty hunter


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I will have an address here and will rent in Spain long term. Of course after 6 months I will have to sign up to tax but certainly won't be rushing to do anything before that
> 
> There's also an element of a mixture between paranoia of the Spanish tax mans pursuit of foreigners and an almost " Boy Scout holier than thou " vibe by some.
> 
> ...


you don't 'sign up ' for tax after 6 months - you submit a tax return in the May/June after the year in which you become tax resident 

so if you moved here in say, September 2014, your first tax return would be submitted in 2016 - same if you moved here in April 2015


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> you don't 'sign up ' for tax after 6 months - you submit a tax return in the May/June after the year in which you become tax resident
> 
> so if you moved here in say, September 2014, your first tax return would be submitted in 2016 - same if you moved here in April 2015


Yes, but as we've been discussing , 
it appears that for most, they are regarded as tax resident for the whole tax year, regardless of when they arrived in Spain!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Yes, but as we've been discussing ,
> it appears that for most, they are regarded as tax resident for the whole tax year, regardless of when they arrived in Spain!


istr that AllHeart was recently advised by Hacienda that she wouldn't have to submit a tax return in 2015 because she didn't move here until September 2014

take a look at this Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?

you aren't considered tax resident in Spain, unless you spend 183 days in a tax year here - unless they are considered tax resident for some other reason


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

So why are we being told the alternative version, that if you intend to permanently reside here , which is the case for the majority, you are resident from day 1?
Safer to move the following year, if in any doubt!
In the link you gave it does also state about your main centre of interest being Spain, however short a time you've spent there in the tax year!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> So why are we being told the alternative version, that if you intend to permanently reside here , which is the case for the majority, you are resident from day 1?
> Safer to move the following year, if in any doubt!
> In the link you gave it does also state about your main centre of interest being Spain, however short a time you've spent there in the tax year!


I have no idea why this alternative version has surfaced.....

yes, centre of interest would override the day counting - but that is generally used when someone is supporting a family which is resident here - even then - if that person can _prove _that they are resident & tax resident elsewhere, then they aren't tax resident here


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

As alborino says, they are getting greedier, and they'll have the final say
The best idea is just to holiday in Spain a few times a year- much easier on the pocket and the brain!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I will have an address here and will rent in Spain long term.* Of course after 6 months I will have to sign up to tax but certainly won't be rushing to do anything before that*
> 
> There's also an element of a mixture between paranoia of the Spanish tax mans pursuit of foreigners and an almost " Boy Scout holier than thou " vibe by some.
> 
> ...


Sorry but after you have been here 90 days you will be deemed to be resident, irrespective of the tax question. If you are an EU citizen, then you will be required to register as a resident (prove income and possession of health care coverage). If you are non-EU citizen, then you will have to similarly prove income and possession of health care coverage PLUS that you have the necessary visas and/or other permissions.

You might be surprised about what "Pedro" may be looking at, and looking for, and your example of "non working non claiming long term renters" are very much at the top of the list: what are they living on? what is their source of income? are they criminals hiding out in Spain? are they drugs barons trying to lie-low and hope that nobody notices? Is there a potential for a huge tax take or confiscation of illegal hoards of money to be had to swell Pedro's coffers?

We don't sit here hoping to see another of those who try to live under the radar or watch somebody else get caught - there are far more fun and pleasant things to do in life, living here in Spain. We just try to help people to avoid jail and fines by staying on the right side of the law.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Lol, chill Baldilocks.

We all want a quiet life. Nothing's that worth getting worked up about esp as for many of us shifting out to Espana is all about worrying less.

Of course people have to pay their way as I have already said but some take too pessimistic a view as to how to approach these things in life


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Why is it considered "greedy" for the Spanish Government to expect anyone who comes to live here to pay their taxes? Does the British Government or British taxpayers tolerate foreigners going to live there who don't want to pay some or all of the tax they are liable to pay there?

How are the Spanish authorities becoming "greedier"? What new taxes have been introduced? People should have been declaring their world wide income for tax anyway, and the Modelo 720 was only introduced as one way of ensuring that Spain can check that people are doing that, it does not mean that anyone is liable to pay more tax than they should have been doing anyway.

Some taxes, notably income tax, have actually been lowered for income received this year, and will be reduced further next year.

Some people may have to pay more tax here than they would have done in their country of birth (although that may be offset or even outweighed by other taxes especially local property taxes being lower), and some types of income are taxable here whereas they would be tax free in the immigrants' home countries, but no foreigner is expected to pay more tax than a Spaniard would on the same income.

If they don't want to pay those taxes they should stay where they are and continue to enjoy the benefits of the UK tax system if that's the one they prefer.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Just like to say I believe taxes should be paid 



extranjero said:


> As alborino says, they are getting greedier, and they'll have the final say
> The best idea is just to holiday in Spain a few times a year- much easier on the pocket and the brain!


The problem I think is those who misquote the 183 day rule could lead others to face unexpected unplanned tax bills. And those who think breaking the rules is a good idea may come unstuck as Spain at last seems to be understanding how damaging corruption as a way of life can be. The rules may well tighten in the near future.

Beyond the 183 day rule in this thread it is being pointed out that there are already rules in place which while little used to date may come more into play. However a little planning will remove surprises.

Clearly once you are living in Spain as someone said you have to accept the rules even if you think they are unfair (haven't seen many people throughout the world who think their taxes are fair ). However not rushing to Spain and then finding that due to a lack of planning you are going to lose tens of thousands of pounds seems best avoided (for Spain's benefit as well as those individuals concerned).

Extranjero I don't think you need to avoid Spain long term. Just take a year to position finances and then move to the Spanish system in a controlled manner knowing where you stand, what needs to be done, and what you will be reasonably asked to pay. Then sit back and enjoy 

And as Lynn says if you think the ongoing taxes are unfair there are many other countries to choose from. For sure in the UK many are rather spoilt but in Spain there are compensations


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Take a look at the other current thread :
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/704890-residents-tax.html


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Perhaps I should have said "resourceful"
Complementary tax is one example- the hacienda knows how much the price of property has dropped, yet they haven't reviewed their valuations.
Abolishing IHT in Murcia is another, but instead of swelling their coffers, it will probably have the effect of driving people away or living under the radar.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

alborino said:


> Just like to say I believe taxes should be paid


but the very well-respected accountancy company Advoco doesn't 

Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?


that's the same link I posted earlier 




> *Situation 2: I became resident part way through the year*
> For those moving to Spain from another country, the year of transition can throw up some questions about residency status. For example, say you gave up a job working in London on 10th March 2012, spent a couple of months in Spain lining up a job for the Autumn, then went travelling round Africa between June and August before returning to Spain to rent a flat and start your job on 1st September. You submit a UK tax return for the year to 5th April 2012 then inform HMRC that you are no longer resident in the UK. Do you have to do a Spanish tax return for 2012?
> On the face of it you could be liable to submit a return because you spent the last 4 months of the year as well as part of March and all of April and May in Spain – more than 183 days. However the days you spent in Spain while you were still UK tax resident (i.e. up to 5 April) are not counted for the purposes of Spanish residency determination even though you were physically in Spain from 10th March. Totting up the days on this basis makes you resident in Spain for the last 4 months of the year, 25 days in April and all of May i.e. not quite 183 days. In a further twist you could choose to submit a return on the basis that you intend to stay in Spain longer than 6 months. This would make sense if you are due a refund of tax deducted from your pay.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Perhaps I should have said "resourceful"
> Complementary tax is one example- the hacienda knows how much the price of property has dropped, yet they haven't reviewed their valuations.
> Abolishing IHT in Murcia is another, but instead of swelling their coffers, it will probably have the effect of driving people away or living under the radar.


Both of which apply to Spanish people just as much as they do to foreigners. The complementary taxes are not new, either, they have applied during previous times when house prices declined.

As far as taxes on purchasing property go, when I bought I looked at the total cost of the house to me (including taxes) as compared with what a similar house would have cost me in the UK. I bought a larger house here than the one I had in the UK and even including the transfer tax it still cost less than I sold my UK house for (which was not in an area where property prices were high). That is even more true today. 

If I paid the same level of IBI in Spain as I paid Council Tax (on a smaller house) in the UK my bill would now be €1,700 per year and not the €300 it is (in a town which has far more public services and facilities than the one I left).


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> Both of which apply to Spanish people just as much as they do to foreigners. The complementary taxes are not new, either, they have applied during previous times when house prices declined.
> 
> As far as taxes on purchasing property go, when I bought I looked at the total cost of the house to me (including taxes) as compared with what a similar house would have cost me in the UK. I bought a larger house here than the one I had in the UK and even including the transfer tax it still cost less than I sold my UK house for (which was not in an area where property prices were high). That is even more true today.
> 
> If I paid the same level of IBI in Spain as I paid Council Tax (on a smaller house) in the UK my bill would now be €1,700 per year and not the €300 it is (in a town which has far more public services and facilities than the one I left).


Some people pay a lot more than300 euros IBI a year, plus community fees, so there's not much difference between SPain and UK, plus most people have a few flights back to the UK each year, which of course is personal choice, so overall they pay more in Spain. When selling property fees are much more in Spain, agents CGT, plus valia .
Yes the taxes I mentioned apply to the Spanish too but a lot more to expats, I think.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Some people pay a lot more than300 euros IBI a year, plus community fees, so there's not much difference between SPain and UK, plus most people have a few flights back to the UK each year, which of course is personal choice, so overall they pay more in Spain. When selling property fees are much more in Spain, agents CGT, plus valia .
> *Yes the taxes I mentioned apply to the Spanish too but a lot more to expats, I think.*


how can they :confused2:

everyone living in Spain is subject to exactly the same tax rules - there's no rule for Spanish nationals & a different one for immigrants


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> but the very well-respected accountancy company Advoco doesn't
> 
> Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?
> 
> ...


Xabiachica I think if aimed at me you are missing the point. I'm saying pay due taxes in general. I don't believe Advoco are promoting tax evasion 

My current concern is Spain enforcing rules not previously often used but available to them. I know what was the norm in 2012 but that doesn't reassure me. And to avoid the possibility of an unexpected tax demand, no matter how small one may think it may be, is for many a very minor change to their plans. 

But this is now moving on to general tax which doesn't concern me so Adios


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I should have said "affect" instead of "apply to"
What I mean is that in the case of IHT and the abolishment of regional allowances, it will affect ex pats more, as spanish people tend to rent more than buy property, so there are less assets and they tend to spread the inheritance out over several members of the family. This is unlike the British with their tendency to " mirror" wills, thus the Spanish liability is lowered, possibly with nil to pay, so the abolishing of allowances doesn't affect them so much.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> I should have said "affect" instead of "apply to"
> What I mean is that in the case of IHT and the abolishment of regional allowances, it will affect ex pats more, as spanish people tend to rent more than buy property


Where do you get these sweeping generalisations (which are quite wrong) from? Spain in fact has a much higher rate of home ownership than the UK does - the seventh highest rate in the EU.


http://news.kyero.com/2013/10/spain...ith-highest-proportion-of-home-ownership/7797

Choosing to live in an urbanisation (or an apartment complex) and thus having community fees to pay as well as IBI is just as much a matter of personal choice as taking flights back to the UK is - or any other kind of discretionary spending which makes living in Spain as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> When selling property fees are much more in Spain, agents CGT, plus valia .
> Yes the taxes I mentioned apply to the Spanish too but a lot more to expats, I think.


Why should CGT be seen as a big problem for expats? For a start, anyone aged 65 or over who sells their habitual residence is exempt, providing they are fiscal residents and have lived in the property for at least 3 years.

As for younger people, some friends of ours completed on the sale of their house last week. They were able to provide proof of fiscal residency so were not subject to the 3% retention by the notary. They plan to buy another larger property in Spain, and provided they do so within 2 years there will be no CGT to pay. They are not British (nor Spanish) but if their new property were to be in the UK (or any other EU country) there would still be no CGT to pay. Yes, if only part of the proceeds were to be invested in a new property CGT would be payable on the balance, but from all that we hear about people selling up in Spain having difficulty in getting back into the UK housing market because UK prices have risen so much, I would think it more likely that they'd have to reinvest all the proceeds and then some.

Yes, anyone who sells a holiday home in liable for CGT in Spain - and so they would be, just the same, if they sold a second home in the UK or another country such as France, Italy, etc.

So just how many expats selling property would be likely to have to pay any CGT in Spain? Maybe a few who choose to sell and then rent, but I suspect that would be a tiny proportion.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

By the way, Extranjero, foreigners bought just 15.8% of the 365,594 properties sold in Spain in 2014:-


365.594 casas vendidas en 2014, según Fomento | Vivienda | EL PAÃ�S


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

You're taking no prisoners today Lynn!!!!

Note to self- never bump into Lynn in Velez spilling her morning coffee.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> You're taking no prisoners today Lynn!!!!
> 
> Note to self- never bump into Lynn in Velez spilling her morning coffee.


I'm so savage I'd stamp on your foot, gout or not gout.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Just to revisit my concerns regarding the timing of a move out to Spain I note from other threads how crucial timing is in relation to CGT.

Just to be clear -would it be correct to say to be 100% sure of avoiding CGT in Spain after moving there with the proceeds of the sale of your UK home- you must move after begining of July in order that you cannot be considered as tax resident in Spain for the year of your house sale?


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Just to revisit my concerns regarding the timing of a move out to Spain I note from other threads how crucial timing is in relation to CGT.
> 
> Just to be clear -would it be correct to say to be 100% sure of avoiding CGT in Spain after moving there with the proceeds of the sale of your UK home- you must move after begining of July in order that you cannot be considered as tax resident in Spain for the year of your house sale?


No. It has nothing directly to do with moving.

What you can say is if:

You had been fully tax liable in the UK in the year you sold your house
You had not been in Spain for any period greater than 90 days in that year.
You had not been in Spain for 183 days during any one year period.
Your family and direct dependents were not resident in Spain. 
You were not at any time in that year economically dependent on Spain.
You made it clear that your intention to be permanently resident in Spain was taken after the first day of the following year.

Then you'd be as 100% water tight as you could be 

You can get away with less of course but when moving to a debt ridden corrupt country I'd play safe


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Still reckon that bottom line is when you sell your UK house do not move to Spain until there's less than 183 days left in the year


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Best thing is to sell your house the year before you move, as if it is your intention to live in Spain, you might be regarded as tax resident for the whole year regardless of what month you moved.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Ideally yes but surely with less than 183 days left SHOULD suffice, plus many of us will have to move immediately we sell our only UK home

Frankly I am still not fully sure of the rules as to when and for how far back Spanish can look for tax on your UK sale

By the way- how do the Spanish know some of your lump sum in your UK bank is from a house sale?


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Still reckon that bottom line is when you sell your UK house do not move to Spain until there's less than 183 days left in the year


For sure if you didn't you'd be sunk but you asked "to be 100% sure"


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

:fingerscrossed:


extranjero said:


> Best thing is to sell your house the year before you move, as if it is your intention to live in Spain, you might be regarded as tax resident for the whole year regardless of what month you moved.



The more I think about it I reckon this is very sound advice.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Another reason not to rush into getting residency if you are not definetely staying


Taken from Advice Site


You will become resident for tax purposes in Spain if: 


You arrive in Spain with an intention to stay. Obtaining a residence permit is evidence of an intention to stay, and will count against any claim that you are not liable for Spanish tax,


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Which is what I told you!


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

My UK house is for sale. So to be sure of avoiding Spanish tax I should wait until next January to move?
What am I supposed to do for the rest of this year?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

True extrajanero

I raise the point because I had my own reservations about the matter. 

For example when I mentioned having a 5 month stay in Spain some howled I must go for residency. 

Technically yes, in practice definitely not. 

Apart from the other issues and problems ( healthcare, signing on/ off) one could get unintentionally dragged into tax liabilities for nothing more than a few extra weeks beyond a holiday


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## smitty5668 (Feb 25, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> True extrajanero
> 
> I raise the point because I had my own reservations about the matter.
> 
> ...


totally agree with you rabbitcat. where are you thinking of moving to in spain?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Am checking out two areas. 

Axarquia using Malaga aport- just back from there, very impressed. 

And my next reconnaissance trip will be to the Denia area, using Alicante aport 

After further checks to our preferred area we wish to sell up and move out to initially rent for couple of seasons.

This site is amazing for getting info on all the requirements, obligations and hurdles- though at the end of the day armed with such info one has to make your own judgement calls


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## smitty5668 (Feb 25, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> Am checking out two areas.
> 
> Axarquia using Malaga aport- just back from there, very impressed.
> 
> ...


the reason for asking, re :this thread, is that to keep strictly legal you could do an over the border trip to keep within the 90 days thing for the EH1C thing. portugal's ok this time of year and not that far from malaga time wise.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

To be honest as regards the 90 day thing I wouldn't get too exercised.

Yes its a requirement and some will tell you death torture and purgatory awaits those who go over it.

However in the real world a certain amount of common sense has to be and is applied. There's tens of thousands who do not register- Scandinavians en masse " winter" in Spain and many/ most don't fully comply There's no big round up of these " offenders"partly I suspect as its not really a major concern

Also the practicalities re the 90 day requirement aren't always workable. A 4 month stayer should strictly speaking register -yet in some areas in can take up to a month for the de- registration to complete- meaning 4 month stayers would need to register and de- register at the same time!

Furthermore healthcare which satisfies registration requirements for a 4 month stay isn't feasible either.

Bottom line, as has been highlighted by many much more experienced than myself, is whilst there are laws/ regulations to follow a degree of realism and feasibility is also applied when it comes to enforcement. Tax liability I feel is however a very different matter with little/ no leeway applied.


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## smitty5668 (Feb 25, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> To be honest as regards the 90 day thing I wouldn't get too exercised.
> 
> Yes its a requirement and some will tell you death torture and purgatory awaits those who go over it.
> 
> ...


how very true that is.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

smitty5668 said:


> the reason for asking, re :this thread, is that to keep strictly legal you could do an over the border trip to keep within the 90 days thing for the EH1C thing. portugal's ok this time of year and not that far from malaga time wise.


Regarding the EHIC, it covers you for up to 3 months in Europe, outside UK, not 3 months in each country!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Regarding the EHIC, it covers you for up to 3 months in Europe, outside UK, not 3 months in each country!


not quite....

it's for holidays, so you could be on holiday in two countries _up to the time at which_ _those countries consider you to be resident - _but if you stay out of the UK for too long & the UK no longer considers you to be resident, then it could be rendered invalid


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