# Calling all Expat Oil Rig Workers



## ClareB (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi.

Hubby works for a Dutch Oil Rig Company from aUK based Office we are looking to move to spain how will this effect his Tax. Any guidence on this matter would be great. Thanks


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Why not ask HMRC in England? I found them to be most helpful and they even saved me money!!


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ClareB said:


> Hi.
> 
> Hubby works for a Dutch Oil Rig Company from aUK based Office we are looking to move to spain how will this effect his Tax. Any guidence on this matter would be great. Thanks



Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?



> *Situation 1 : I am not sure whether I am resident or not* The vast majority of we foreigners know whether we are resident or non-resident just from common sense. We divide into people who live here year round and those who just have a holiday home they visit from time to time. The former are tax resident in Spain and the latter non resident though, as owners of Spanish property, they still have to file a tax return (Form 210 – click for details).
> For a small number of people however there is room for debate. For example they split their time between two countries or work abroad a lot. The basic rule applied to determine residency is the 183 days rule: if an individual spends this amount of time or more during a calendar year then he or she is tax resident.
> If you split your time fairly evenly between two countries, the authorities in both countries could potentially examine your affairs to make an assessment of residency. They will look at such things as where your property, investments, business and employment are located. You will certainly need to tax resident in one of the countries.
> *You may also be considered resident in Spain if you stay within the 183 day limit but other factors indicate it is your main base. For example of your spouse and family live in Spain the onus will be on you to prove residency elsewhere however short a time you spend in Spain.*


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

You may want to take a look though this ClaireB, but the most important thing is to speak to tax advisors

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/28330-offshore-tax.html


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

I work on rigs. Don't live in spain yet though.

If I move to spain I plan to avoid any income tax. I will declare myself a non UK resident to get HMRC off my back, and spend less than 183 days in spain. All my income is foreign earned too.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Snozzle12 said:


> I work on rigs. Don't live in spain yet though.
> 
> If I move to spain I plan to avoid any income tax. I will declare myself a non UK resident to get HMRC off my back, and spend less than 183 days in spain. All my income is foreign earned too.


yes, a lot of people seem to manage that - single people - I know some

for those financially supporting a family in Spain it's a different story though - & I understand that the UK is introducing similar rules


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> yes, a lot of people seem to manage that - single people - I know some
> 
> for those financially supporting a family in Spain it's a different story though - & I understand that the UK is introducing similar rules


I can only avoid UK income tax if I spend less than 90 days in country. However, if one owns a house in the UK one could even find that HMRC will declare you are resident even if you spend less than 90 days in the UK.

As someone who works away for half the year or more, and whose earnings are all foreign earning, I am hoping I can avoid the vast majority of income tax in Spain. I need to find out the exact rules. If Spain would want me to pay full income tax I'll look to live somewhere less strict on tax.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Snozzle12 said:


> I work on rigs. Don't live in spain yet though.
> 
> If I move to spain I plan to avoid any income tax. I will declare myself a non UK resident to get HMRC off my back, and spend less than 183 days in spain. All my income is foreign earned too.


You can't. They will only sign you off one countries tax regime if they are certain that you are going on to another's. If they find that you have declared non-residency & aren't paying anywhere they will reinstate you & want the back tax.
Legally you have to be resident somewhere. You cannot become a stateless person.


----------



## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

We lived in South Korea for 14 years (hubby built oil rigs etc). His company paid his Korean tax. He had non resident tax status in the UK. & as stated above, because he could prove he was paying Korean income tax he didn't have to pay tax again on the same income! We only visited the UK for 3 weeks in the Summer. 
& then we moved to Spain (June this year). Hubby had a job here so his company would deal with immigration (residency) & tax. Well the job has been delayed!! & looks like hubby has got himself his first offshore job! Hubby's new company will pay his local tax (Angolan). 
As me and the kids will live in Spain in excess of 183 days per year, regardless whether hubby does or not, he will be classed as a tax resident. 
We need to sort out a tax consultant who can give us some advice re: being a UK citizen, a Spanish resident, working for a French company & paying tax in Angola! Unlike you Clare we are here already! & stuck with whatever is going to be thrown at us! I hope you get 'good news' re: tax implications of moving to Spain for your situation. I will certainly share any definitive information I get in the future. Best of luck.


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> You can't. They will only sign you off one countries tax regime if they are certain that you are going on to another's. If they find that you have declared non-residency & aren't paying anywhere they will reinstate you & want the back tax.
> Legally you have to be resident somewhere. You cannot become a stateless person.


Are you sure about that? We are talking residence for tax purposes not becoming 'stateless'. I'll be living in Spain but not resident for tax purposes cos of the 183 day rule. I might not even step foot back in the UK during the year.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> Are you sure about that? We are talking residence for tax purposes not becoming 'stateless'. I'll be living in Spain but not resident for tax purposes cos of the 183 day rule. I might not even step foot back in the UK during the year.


Yes, he's right.
When my wife signed off the UK system, we had to go to the tax office in Spain, fill out forms, show copies of her Spanish tax return, and then lodge those Spanish stamped forms with HMRC UK. Until we did that, she couldnt be non fiscal resident in the UK


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

angil said:


> We lived in South Korea for 14 years (hubby built oil rigs etc). His company paid his Korean tax. He had non resident tax status in the UK. & as stated above, because he could prove he was paying Korean income tax he didn't have to pay tax again on the same income! We only visited the UK for 3 weeks in the Summer.
> & then we moved to Spain (June this year). Hubby had a job here so his company would deal with immigration (residency) & tax. Well the job has been delayed!! & looks like hubby has got himself his first offshore job! Hubby's new company will pay his local tax (Angolan).
> As me and the kids will live in Spain in excess of 183 days per year, regardless whether hubby does or not, he will be classed as a tax resident.
> We need to sort out a tax consultant who can give us some advice re: being a UK citizen, a Spanish resident, working for a French company & paying tax in Angola! Unlike you Clare we are here already! & stuck with whatever is going to be thrown at us! I hope you get 'good news' re: tax implications of moving to Spain for your situation. I will certainly share any definitive information I get in the future. Best of luck.


thanks for posting this - sometimes people don't quite believe us when we say that it has nothing to do with 'feet on the ground' when someone is supporting a family in Spain - you're tax resident !


I hope someone can suggest an expert for you - sounds complicated!!


----------



## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

We had a 'funny' experience when trying to 'extract' some money from the Leeds Building Society in the UK whilst visiting in July!! 
"Oh, a stop on transactions has been put on your account because you are non UK residents" 
What?? We were "non UK residents" when we deposited the money! 
Baring in mind at that point we weren't Spanish residents either!
Talk about stateless!?! 
"So I am not a UK resident and not a Spanish resident, what am I!" The girl at the Leeds didn't know!!
I did get my money! 
I think I prefer Korea with it's Alien Immigration Card and the odd shout of "wayguki" from the locals!! A simpler time!!
& Its my understanding you have to pay income tax somewhere? Otherwise you are a tax exile? & 'they' will catch up with you one day. I am quoting my hubby now - "It is not enough to simply stay out of the country you need to prove you are fulfilling the tax requirements of the country where you are working in to be exempt from paying income tax elsewhere."


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Yes, he's right.
> When my wife signed off the UK system, we had to go to the tax office in Spain, fill out forms, show copies of her Spanish tax return, and then lodge those Spanish stamped forms with HMRC UK. Until we did that, she couldnt be non fiscal resident in the UK


Then how do people live in Dubai and not pay UK tax on foreign earnings? There is a 90 day rule for UK resident for tax purposes - plus rules about having no ties etc - anyway filling in a Spanish tax return doesn't mean you have to pay income tax if you abide by the 183 day rule and all your money is earned overseas. Anyway I need to get definitive advice here, but I don't believe that HMRC can make me pay income tax if I abide by their own rules regardless of where I live or work overseas.


----------



## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Because Dubai does not have income tax! So if you are working in Dubai and not paying income tax then you are abiding by local tax rules which, along with staying out of the UK for the allocated no. of days, would satisfy the UK tax man. We had a UK tax consultant who kept things in check for us when we were in Korea. Apparently he knows nothing of the Spanish rules and regulations! We need to find one that does.


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

angil said:


> Because Dubai does not have income tax! So if you are working in Dubai and not paying income tax then you are abiding by local tax rules which, along with staying out of the UK for the allocated no. of days, would satisfy the UK tax man. We had a UK tax consultant who kept things in check for us when we were in Korea. Apparently he knows nothing of the Spanish rules and regulations! We need to find one that does.


So show me on the HRMC website where it say you must be liable to income tax in an overseas country before you can qualify as non resident of the UK?

Besides, from what I can tell, even if I am a non resident for tax purposes in Spain I still need to fill a tax return in and I am liable to income tax on my Spanish sourced income. All my earnings are however, earned overseas.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> Are you sure about that? We are talking residence for tax purposes not becoming 'stateless'. I'll be living in Spain but not resident for tax purposes cos of the 183 day rule. I might not even step foot back in the UK during the year.


You seem to be desperate not to pay tax to anyone?? The only way to do that is to not live anywhere - be a nomad and have nothing........ oh except money from not paying taxes. You'll need international health insurance, cos you'll have to move around alot, but it sounds a bit of a lonely and pointless life if this is really what you are trying to achieve???? Or am I misunderstanding??

Jo xxx


----------



## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Okay all I know is from my hubby who has lived & worked overseas for nearly 20 years. Me and the kids tagging along for the last 15! I am not familiar with HRMC website. I do know of guys who decided not to pay Korean/local tax (nor UK tax - it was quite easy but I think Korea has clamped down) some are still getting away with it some not so much! We have always done things above board, for better or worse! I would recommend getting an expat tax consultant, they aren't expensive, out of curiosity if nothing else. We need to do the same, a Spanish 'expert'! I am hoping for the best but fearing the worst!


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Snozzle12 said:


> Are you sure about that? We are talking residence for tax purposes not becoming 'stateless'. I'll be living in Spain but not resident for tax purposes cos of the 183 day rule. I might not even step foot back in the UK during the year.


Yes. You've basically got to be registered for tax somewhere, even if you do not have to pay any.

I.e. I'm a spanish resident but if I want to de -register the spaniards won't do it without a certificate from the HMRc that I'm going back to them ( Or the tax authority wherever I did go ).
If they can't decide where you are resident, because you aren't liable to be resident anywhere, then it goes back to what countries passport you hold & you'll be a UK tax resident again !


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes. You've basically got to be registered for tax somewhere, even if you do not have to pay any.
> 
> I.e. I'm a spanish resident but if I want to de -register the spaniards won't do it without a certificate from the HMRc that I'm going back to them ( Or the tax authority wherever I did go ).
> If they can't decide where you are resident, because you aren't liable to be resident anywhere, then it goes back to what countries passport you hold & you'll be a UK tax resident again !


I'll be registered in Spain for tax is my understanding, liable to pay tax on earnings earned in Spain even if I spend less than 183 days in Spain. That Spain won't tax me on foreign earnings has naff all to do with HMRC.

Please show me this rule that HMRC has that you default to a UK resident if you are a non resident taxpayer living in Spain.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> So show me on the HRMC website where it say you must be liable to income tax in an overseas country before you can qualify as non resident of the UK?
> 
> Besides, from what I can tell, even if I am a non resident for tax purposes in Spain I still need to fill a tax return in and I am liable to income tax on my Spanish sourced income. All my earnings are however, earned overseas.


Tell you what, you just do what you think is right then and hope for the best. When you are tax resident in Spain btw you declare your_ worldwide_ income
Dont confuse fiscal residency and domiciled residency, they are two different things

If you dont believe what we are telling you then fine ..... when you apply for non tax residency in the UK and they ask you for documentation as to where you are paying tax, just make it up 

Good luck


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I don't know anything about tax rules and regulations, but I'm just wondering why the OP thinks it's not a good idea to pay tax somewhere.
Is it just a "money for me" philosophy, or is there more to it?


----------



## donk (Jan 19, 2013)

Clare the Spanish IR class a person as 'resident' if a) they are in country for 183 days or more per calendar year, and/or, b)their family is resident there. The way Im getting out of this at the moment is by being in the legal K2 tax avoidance scheme in UK where im paid a small and taxable salary and non-taxable discretionary loans. My offtakes amount to 18% from my topline. As long as that is legal in UK Ill use that as an appropriate tax vehicle to avoid Spanish tax.


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Tell you what, you just do what you think is right then and hope for the best. When you are tax resident in Spain btw you declare your_ worldwide_ income
> Dont confuse fiscal residency and domiciled residency, they are two different things
> 
> If you dont believe what we are telling you then fine ..... when you apply for non tax residency in the UK and they ask you for documentation as to where you are paying tax, just make it up
> ...


That is my point about confusing physical residency with residency for tax purposes. Like I said if I move to Spain I fill a tax return in and declare my worldwide earnings, doesn't mean that Spain charge me tax on foreign earnings. HMRC might want to know my circumstances...i.e where I living and making a tax return but they have no duty to make sure I pay tax on foreign earnings to them just because Spain don't want me to pay tax on them to Spain. It isn't my fault that Spain has this 183 day rule.

I've just had a look at the HMRC website and the criteria for non residency of the UK. It says nothing about having to pay tax on foreign earnings to some other country to qualify as a non resident.


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know anything about tax rules and regulations, but I'm just wondering why the OP thinks it's not a good idea to pay tax somewhere.
> Is it just a "money for me" philosophy, or is there more to it?


It's purely selfish on my part. But the government are wasting money inflating house prices and are blitzing my savings with QE. I don't feel any duty to aid this.


----------



## nikkisizer (Aug 20, 2011)

Residency is a very complex area and the UK residence rules changed with effect from the current tax year (2013/14) with the introduction of the Statutory Residence Test (SRT). 

Ties such as home, work, family etc. in the UK may class you as UK resident for tax purposes regardless of where you reside. 

If classed as UK resident under the new (SRT) you would then be taxed on your worldwide income so it is very important that your individual circumstances are dealt with correctly to protect your residency status and exposure to UK taxation.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> It's purely selfish on my part. But the government are wasting money inflating house prices and are blitzing my savings with QE. I don't feel any duty to aid this.


I understand what you're saying, but you're kinda "cutting off your nose to spite your face". One day, you'll need those things you disagree with now, one day you'll want to settle down and have a secure and safe life. If you really disagree with the way the governments spend "your" money, then you shouldnt take a job that relies on the said government to be the main purchaser. Maybe take yourself off to Dubai or one of the countries that operate a different financial system??? I dont mean that to sound unkind, but if you feel so strongly, then the only way is to "bail out" and be glad we live in a world that enables you to do that?????


In the end, fighting and trying to evade the life you find yourself in, is hard work and really not worth the effort


Jo xxxx


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> That is my point about confusing physical residency with residency for tax purposes. *Like I said if I move to Spain I fill a tax return in and declare my worldwide earnings, doesn't mean that Spain charge me tax on foreign earnings. HMRC might want to know my circumstances...i.e where I living and making a tax return but they have no duty to make sure I pay tax on foreign earnings to them just because Spain don't want me to pay tax on them to Spain. It isn't my fault that Spain has this 183 day rule.*
> 
> I've just had a look at the HMRC website and the criteria for non residency of the UK. It says nothing about having to pay tax on foreign earnings to some other country to qualify as a non resident.


Please .... be serious. If you are a tax resident in Spain then you HAVE to declare your world wide assets to the Hacienda. Full stop. If you are tax resident in Spain then you have to pay tax on your worldwide income. Full stop. If you dont do that, and you are found out later you can face huge fines. There have been HMRC staff working in Spain over the last few years. they talk to each other.

Its not your fault that Spain have a 183 day rule, but it's not their fault you want to live here. IF you live here then you live by their rules. Like it or not.

Theres another thread on here now about someone who tried to de register for tax in the UK before moving to Spain. HMRC asked her to produce her last tax return in Spain before they would do anything. You see the message here?


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

nikkisizer said:


> Residency is a very complex area and the UK residence rules changed with effect from the current tax year (2013/14) with the introduction of the Statutory Residence Test (SRT).
> 
> Ties such as home, work, family etc. in the UK may class you as UK resident for tax purposes regardless of where you reside.
> 
> If classed as UK resident under the new (SRT) you would then be taxed on your worldwide income so it is very important that your individual circumstances are dealt with correctly to protect your residency status and exposure to UK taxation.


Thanks for the advice. If I spend the first year without setting foot in the UK, and I have no property in the UK, no wife, no kids, from what I can tell I would qualify as a non resident for tax purposes.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Snozzle12 said:


> Thanks for the advice. If I spend the first year without setting foot in the UK, and I have no property in the UK, no wife, no kids, from what I can tell I would qualify as a non resident for tax purposes.


No it has to be 5 years.


My wife & I are permanent Spanish residents & have been for 11 years. 
We are required to declare for spanish tax etc; but only had to do it the once & 2nd year confirm the same as we had no income from anywhere whatsoever.
It still remains the same scenario for me. 

My wife , however started working in the UK some while Back & as such is required to file for tax now in spain. BUT as she has worked out of spain for more than 183 days there is no requirement to pay tax here.

The HMRC who could allow her to declare for tax in spain without paying any in the UK obviously won't as they know that she does not have to pay because she is over the 183 days out of spain.

So she has to declare & pay tax in the UK even though she is a spanish resident with no address or accommodation of any description in the UK & even though she cannot pay national insurance contributions in the UK as she is a non-resident with no links.


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> No it has to be 5 years.
> 
> 
> My wife & I are permanent Spanish residents & have been for 11 years.
> ...


She works in the UK so pays UK tax.

I don't see anything on the HMRC rules about it taking 5 years to be a non resident for tax purposes or having to stay away entirely for 5 years.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Snozzle12 said:


> She works in the UK so pays UK tax.
> 
> I don't see anything on the HMRC rules about it taking 5 years to be a non resident for tax purposes or having to stay away entirely for 5 years.


No she can elect to pay the tax in spain as a spanish resident & self-employed but as this year she was out for over 183 days she can't , but next year she won't be so she can, but she'll also have to declare in the UK; & the Isle of Man !!! Just to make it difficult.
What I also failed to mention is although she is out of Spain for over 183 days in the spanish tax year ,so they are not interested, she is not in the UK for over 183 days in the UK tax year but they insist that this year she has to pay there.

I am only going by what was told to me last year by the hmrc. I left in 2002 , & never told them . Just closed the business down , paid what was owing to them + a balancing amount in 2003 as the business tax year spanned 2 years & left.
When I contacted them last year ,once they finally found out who I was, they told me that as I had been out for more than 5 years I was classed as a non-resident for tax purposes. When I said I thought it was only a year they replied that was correct but that they monitor the situation & only after 5 years do they consider the person to be non-resident. Then again they couldn't be monitoring very much as they couldn't even find any record of me for more than 2 hours !lol
I think by 'monitoring' they mean filing tax returns.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

In addition the HMrC site has to be viewed in conjunction with this ;
HM Revenue & Customs: Tax when leaving the UK

& this
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/rdr3.pdf
& anything else that is relevant.

5.22 From the point you cease to have a home in the UK you must spend
fewer than 16 days in the UK and, in relation to a particular country, either:

become resident for tax purposes in that country within 6 months,
be present in that country at the end of each day for 6 months, or
have your only home, or all your homes if you have more than one, in
that country. 


" become resident for tax purposes in that country within 6 months," 

& that basically means " you either pay them or you will be paying us "


----------



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> In addition the HMrC site has to be viewed in conjunction with this ;
> HM Revenue & Customs: Tax when leaving the UK
> 
> & this
> ...


You must have missed the use of the qualifier 'or'.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

No I didn't. 
As I explained . My wife fails all the passes required & passes all the fails required under the UK tests . Nor does she qualiify under any of the '90 days in one house' rules. Basically she is not legally required to pay tax in the UK , nor anywhere else. Under those circumstances the HMRc told us that she will have to declare & pay , if necessary , in the UK as she is not legally required to pay anywhere else, & everyone has to pay.

"become resident for tax purposes in that country within 6 months,
be present in that country at the end of each day for 6 months, or
have your only home, or all your homes if you have more than one, in
that country."


& that basically means " you either pay them or you will be paying us "


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> No I didn't.
> As I explained . My wife fails all the passes required & passes all the fails required under the UK tests . Nor does she qualiify under any of the '90 days in one house' rules. Basically she is not legally required to pay tax in the UK , nor anywhere else. Under those circumstances the HMRc told us that she will have to declare & pay , if necessary , in the UK as she is not legally required to pay anywhere else, & everyone has to pay.


Think this is the basis if Section 334 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988

"334 Commonwealth citizens and others temporarily abroad

—Every Commonwealth citizen or citizen of the Republic of Ireland—

(a)shall, if his ordinary residence has been in the United Kingdom, be assessed and charged to income tax notwithstanding that at the time the assessment or charge is made he may have left the United Kingdom, if he has so left the United Kingdom for the purpose only of occasional residence abroad, and

(b)shall be charged as a person actually residing in the United Kingdom upon the whole amount of his profits or gains, whether they arise from property in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, or from any allowance, annuity or stipend, or from any trade, profession, employment or vocation in the United Kingdom or elsewhere."

Think the key words here are "occasional residence abroad" .


----------



## ClareB (Aug 12, 2013)

WOW!!!! really opened a can of worms there and still have no real idea of what the anwser is. Think i will contact HRMC and explain my situation.


----------

