# Living in Chiapas, Mexico



## baplin

My boyfriend and I are getting married this month and are planning to move to Chiapas in about six years (we are trying to save $60,000 to $70,000 before we move). He's from Chiapas and ended up leaving when he was about sixteen years old and due to the time laspse I figure that quite a few things have changed while he's been away. This is the back story.

I have never been outside the southeast USA, to be quite honest I have only left l Georgia maybe once or twice so I am having a bit of mixed emotions about moving

At any rate our plan is to buy at least three acres of land to build a house on, farm produce and what not, as well has raise horses, cows, sheep, etc. I was wondering if anyone know the cost of doing this and what Chiapas is like from a view point that is currently or has at least been living there recently.


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## TundraGreen

baplin said:


> My boyfriend and I are getting married this month and are planning to move to Chiapas in about six years (we are trying to save $60,000 to $70,000 before we move). He's from Chiapas and ended up leaving when he was about sixteen years old and due to the time laspse I figure that quite a few things have changed while he's been away. This is the back story.
> 
> I have never been outside the southeast USA, to be quite honest I have only left l Georgia maybe once or twice so I am having a bit of mixed emotions about moving
> 
> At any rate our plan is to buy at least three acres of land to build a house on, farm produce and what not, as well has raise horses, cows, sheep, etc. I was wondering if anyone know the cost of doing this and what Chiapas is like from a view point that is currently or has at least been living there recently.


Perhaps you could start by spending all of your vacation time in Chiapas for the next six years while you are saving money for the move. Visiting a place on vacation and living there are two very different things, but visiting could be a helpful part of planning a move to a place where you have never been.


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## Longford

baplin, :welcome: to the Mexico Forum!


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## baplin

Thanks for your responses. I know within a year or two I will be visiting his mother so that she can meet her grandchildren (right now we have a four year old with one due in January). I have a lot of research to do before we go down there and hopefully posting on this forum would help a great deal.


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## Hound Dog

Baplin:

We have been living in Mexico as retirees since 2001 and have owned a home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet since 2006. We also live about 1/2 of each year at Lake Chapala but we are quite familiar with the entire state of Chiapas as well as other surrounding southern Mexican states. Chiapas is many things depending on topograpy and climatological conditions both of which can vary significantly Add to that the fact that the climate in Chiapas ranges for hot and humid tropical jungle to alpine highlands where it can become quite fresh to chilly to arid valleys to hot and humid tierra caliente along the Pacific lowlands.

Let me know of the región in which you are thinking of settling and, perhaps, starting a farm and we can discuss your plans. While I, as you, am from the Southeastern U.S., more specifically, the Alabama Gulf Coastal Plain, I am not a farmer and never have been except for trying to grow some radishes in our back yard for a 4-H Project in 1953 when I was in the fifth grade. However, I know Chiapas quite well and would love to share information with you once I know where you contemplate moving a few years down the line.

Chiapas is not for everyone but we love it there in all of its various aspects. Keep that dream going.


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## baplin

Thank you for that great response! I will find out from my fiance where exactly his family lives, I know its on the bottom of Chiapas with lots of country. I am hoping we will find something with lots of green grass and possibly with a stream on th property. I don't want to be to picky but I would love to live somewhere where I could see the mountains and hopefully have internet too.

My main goal is to be self effient though. Which is why I want land and a farm. My family has a lot of Native American blood so my grandfather taught me about farming and plants but I have never actually been around farm animals so that would be a new experience for me.


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## baplin

My fiance is from El Porvenir do you know anything about this place?


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## Longford

baplin said:


> My fiance is from El Porvenir do you know anything about this place?


Here is some basic information for you to look at (click on the links):






Photos of El Porvenir

El Porvenir - As Described in Wikipedia

The 'market center', largest city near El Porvenir, seems to be Motozintla. That's a deep valley, at Motozintla ... but El Porvenir seems to be on a plateau of higher elevation. I've been to Motozintla several times, mostly to change busses as I was moving towards Tapachula.


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## citlali

Is your husband indigenous from a particular village or area or mestizo? 
One thing you have to keep in mind before buying in the country is that some areas are problematic because of feud between various factions. 
Also some areas are at the mercy of squaters and or zapatistas who have been known to take over land from farmers,

You cannot go to an area blind and if your husband has family his family would be best at telling you which area is good and which area is not good for whatever reason.

"the bottom" ofChiapas is mostly jungle or jungle that was deforesed and is farmed by various ejidos, is he coming from the border area? Marques de Comillas, Montes Azules, Palenque area?

Find out where he is from first , where his family lives and if that is where he wants to settle. Having ties to a family down there is best.

If it is central Chiapas its a different story and Los Altos another story, nobody can really give you an opinion until you know in what area you want to settle


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## Isla Verde

baplin said:


> My fiance is from El Porvenir do you know anything about this place?


El Porvenir is a very small town in southeastern Chiapas near the border with Guatemala:

El Porvenir, Chiapas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## baplin

citlali said:


> Is your husband indigenous from a particular village or area or mestizo?
> One thing you have to keep in mind before buying in the country is that some areas are problematic because of feud between various factions.
> Also some areas are at the mercy of squaters and or zapatistas who have been known to take over land from farmers,
> 
> You cannot go to an area blind and if your husband has family his family would be best at telling you which area is good and which area is not good for whatever reason.
> 
> "the bottom" ofChiapas is mostly jungle or jungle that was deforesed and is farmed by various ejidos, is he coming from the border area? Marques de Comillas, Montes Azules, Palenque area?
> 
> Find out where he is from first , where his family lives and if that is where he wants to settle. Having ties to a family down there is best.
> 
> If it is central Chiapas its a different story and Los Altos another story, nobody can really give you an opinion until you know in what area you want to settle


He and his family are from El Povenir and there doesn't seem to be much information on it online. He has an extended family including 12 brothers and sisters. I talk with his cousin frequently and know two of his brothers because they live with us in the states and are planning to leave in a few years too.


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## citlali

Sorry you posted the answer as I was posting. Porvenir is in a beautiful area but an area I do not work in so I do not know about the politics in the country there,
There have been problems in the Motozintla area with a Canadian mine and there are Zapatistas as well who do not always like for the government to go through with roads etc,,,
Since you are not going blind and will be part of your husband´s family you will be included in whatever group there is there. 
If I were you I would go and visit before making any kind of commitment to check out the politics and the area, It may be perfectly fine but out there in the country it can be iffy. Make sure there are no factiosn fighting each other in that community if there is stay away.

Most fights are between Catholics and Protestants Evangelists and seem to always be related to the use or borders of the land. SInce you want a farm that is particularly important to you.

I was a witness a month or so ago to the destruction of 23 houses in Mitziton just a few kms from San Cristobal. 
I do notvoice an opinion or take any side in the fights so all I saw is that the Zapatistas destroyed 23 houses in one afternoon . That town always has problems between the Zapatistas and a group of Evangelists that are suppposedly cutting the forest without permit and selling the wood. The zapatistas erased all the houses of the Evangelists with tractors and I was stuck in the colectivo as the two goups were faving each other. There there is an on going feud so who know who is right or wrong but the last thing you want to be caught in one of those.
Porvenir is not Mitziton so it does not mean anything specifically but these feuds go on all over the countryside and you should be aware of it.

Do go on vacations there and see what you can find out. I do not believe anyone on this forum knows enough about the exact situation there to be of any help to you. 

The area is in the sierra above the Soconusco which is hot as hell The area for a tourist is a wonderful area. To live there you have to check it out and like living in a small town in a relatively isolated area.
You are no far from the Guatemala border which can be good or bad at least the climate there is nicer than in the Soconusco.


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## citlali

By the way if you can find a cheap flight to Mexico there are cheap flights to Chiapas , for you you probably would fly to Tapatchula and take a bus to Motozintla Check airlines like Vivaaerobus, Volaris Interjet and so on.

You say your husband has relatives who want to do the same thing so maybe all of you can go and check what land is available and so on. You would not be alone so that is a real plus. Life in the country can be pretty basic down there but you can make it comfortabe. 

I have problems sometimes with cell phone in the country and not everyone has access to cell signals or internet so check that part too. In the mountains connections and signals are often off and on.


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## baplin

Yeah I was worried about the lack of service. Often his mother has to travel to his cousins house because her house phone has service issues. I am okay with basics I know a lot about plants and how to make soaps, herbal remedies, balms, etc. I would like to have electricity and plumbing (I worry about those things) but I think it might be worth the change. I have never been a lover of the city anyways.


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## citlali

Plumbing in the country is often more a latrin than a septic system but since you are in the States you guys can study the way the spetic system are build with leech lines etc..and do the sme wherever you are.
Yes it all depends where the signals are, You just never know. I have a friend who lives in a village on the mountain close to Bochil and there is no signal in her village. Her brother has a landline that does not work most of the time but if you walk up the mountain you have signal.
Another one in el Bosque sometimes has signal and sometimes not, another frien near the Pan american hwy has signal sin some part of the property not everywhere, she has internet with banda ancha from Telcel or el mex I do not know and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not...
Plants will be different from the ones you know if Georgia but there many people use medecinal plants so you will pick up quickly. I am sure you will find the basics you need in Porvenir and most peope have electricity unless thery are in the middle of nowhere even then you can always have a generator and live by the sun
.Indigenous area do not change time and go by the sun or hora de Dios so you can do the same thing,
The important is to have access to decent water on the property than you can always install something. Watch out for the clear streams , have the water checked for parasites which are common in the country. If you get water from a spring usually the water is ok , just have it analysed before making great plans. Water is a lot more important than electricity to start with.
Life will be different that is for sure but if you are ok for the change and adventurous you probably will enjoy it.
Porvenir will have internet so you can always go to town and use an internet cafe, they are cheap in Chiapas and everywhere.
Good luck


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## Isla Verde

I can't offer you any advice about living in the country, but I would advise you to start learning Spanish now, so by the time you make the move you'll be reasonably fluent.


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## citlali

Hopefully the OP already does speak Spanish if not she will be very isolated. Just a note that area in the sierra is very high so cool to cold and the roads are very curvy and are slow going so the area is very isolated. Spectacular country to visit.
That is one place I would not mve to if I did not speak Spanish.
Check out the medical facilities, since you are young , think about having a baby there and then think about the education of your children and their chances of getting ahead laer on in life.


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## Hound Dog

By the way one plus about El Porvenir, it was the birth place of Manuel Velasco, who was governor of Chapas in the 70´s and was the father or grand father of the currant 28 year old governor Manuel Velasco Coello. So educated people have come from that Little town but then they were rich folks..


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## baplin

Well I speak a little Spanish, enough to get by I am working on learning it a lot better. Hopefully by the time we get down there I will know Spanish as well as I know English. I have been research different kinds of plumbing (mostly do it yourself stuff) because I more of hands on type person anyways. I definitely need to find the time to visit down there but I am wondering what it would be like. I know the culture is different and all that fun stuff I just wonder what all is avaible down there. Like in the states you can just order anything online. Can you do that in Mexico?


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## Hound Dog

baplin said:


> ... Like in the states you can just order anything online. Can you do that in Mexico?


Yes, you can order many things on line in Mexico although on some imported ítems you may have to pay a substantial duty and, considering the isolated location and small population of El Porvenir, you may have to pick up any orders in Motozintla. 

El Porvenir is located in a spectacularly beautiful, mountainous área at over 9,000 feet so expect a bracing climate unless you will be living in a valley at a lower level. For beautiful pictures of the El Porvenier, Motozintla and other nearby áreas, go to _You __Tube_ on line. Gorgeous, if very rugged country.

As for farming, in the high elevation áreas in the mountains around San Cristóbal, some as high a 11,000 feet, there are many small milpas in and adjacent to indigenous homes and villages; what you would call truck farms in Georgia. The (mostly) indigenous farmers bring a wide variety of produce and meats and fowl to San Cristóbal every day to sell at the vast indigenous market near our home there. The variety of freshly harvested local produce is astonishing and we do most of our shopping for produce at the indigenous market while usually, if not always, buying meat, poultry and fish at local supermarkets or from small local vendors. One can buy extremely fresh poultry and meats, dressed or undressed, some often still tweeting and oinking, at the indigenous market. The notion of skinning and gutting my own hogs is a bit unpleasant to us but that option will doubtless be available to you if you are not squeamish. 

While many local markets in Mexico are simply selling produce brought in from regional wholesale markets (abastos) the produce sold by the indigenous folks in the southern highlands is truly local and usually far superior to that stuff coming from large, regional commercial farms.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

baplin said:


> My boyfriend and I are getting married this month and are planning to move to Chiapas in about six years (we are trying to save $60,000 to $70,000 before we move). He's from Chiapas and ended up leaving when he was about sixteen years old and due to the time laspse I figure that quite a few things have changed while he's been away. This is the back story.
> 
> I have never been outside the southeast USA, to be quite honest I have only left l Georgia maybe once or twice so I am having a bit of mixed emotions about moving
> 
> At any rate our plan is to buy at least three acres of land to build a house on, farm produce and what not, as well has raise horses, cows, sheep, etc. I was wondering if anyone know the cost of doing this and what Chiapas is like from a view point that is currently or has at least been living there recently.


Baplin, I see two major stumbling blocks looming, which posters have been hinting at.

First, you've never left the U.S. southeast and have no experience in foreign cultures. I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I'd say that most have had multiple visits to other countries and especially Mexico before deciding to move here. Very few Americans can. A large percentage just can't deal with the different customs, the different amenities, the feeling of being a huge, huge distance from the USA and run screaming for the first plane home. Most Americans who do visit Mexico as tourists stay in well protected enclaves in which more English is spoken than Spanish.

You have no idea how you will react visiting, much less living in a foreign culture. Plus, I've lived in tiny villages such as El Porvenir where even Spanish was a second language, and in some, not spoken at all. It will be such a major, major change in your life. Yes, you may put up with it for a year or two because of your relationship, but longterm, you should follow the advice above and visit the town often before even deciding to move there.

Second, your plan is to buy a farm of three acres and make a go of that? I'm far, far from being the farmer type and maybe others will say that's a fine plan, but to me, that looks as if it is just subsistence farming at its most basic, hard, grueling work for the only rewards of barely enough to eat, and that is definitely not taking into account any meat, except what you grow yourself. 

You mentioned building a nest egg of $60,000 to $70,000 before going down to El Porvenir. Does that include what you'll need to buy this farm, and for implements, etc? And neither of you will have an income coming in from investments or some sort of internet work in the States?

Well, your husband is from the area, and if he thinks you can make a go of it on three acres, I guess so. But, I hardly think there is any market down there for high quality produce or meat for fancy restaurants or high income urban dwellers as exists in the U.S.A. Anyway, you two have to sit down and know beforehand how you'll make a living on those three acres, and whether it will be more than just subsistence. That would make trips back to the U.S., or mail ordering all those U.S. products from the net, pretty much impossible.

Or, Baplin, what cash crops do you two plan to raise on these three acres that will do more than just feed the two of you? 

Also on Spanish, it is not realistic to think that you're going to learn to speak Spanish as well as you do English by just practicing in Georgia before you go. That is, not unless, you live only with your future husband and his relatives and speak nothing more than Spanish among yourselves for a few years. That statement gave me a kind of pause about how realistic your other plans are.

Of course, you can do it. You may have much more planned out than appeared in your posts and I'm just being silly. O jalá!


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## baplin

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Baplin, I see two major stumbling blocks looming, which posters have been hinting at.
> 
> First, you've never left the U.S. southeast and have no experience in foreign cultures. I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I'd say that most have had multiple visits to other countries and especially Mexico before deciding to move here. Very few Americans can. A large percentage just can't deal with the different customs, the different amenities, the feeling of being a huge, huge distance from the USA and run screaming for the first plane home. Most Americans who do visit Mexico as tourists stay in well protected enclaves in which more English is spoken than Spanish.
> 
> You have no idea how you will react visiting, much less living in a foreign culture. Plus, I've lived in tiny villages such as El Porvenir where even Spanish was a second language, and in some, not spoken at all. It will be such a major, major change in your life. Yes, you may put up with it for a year or two because of your relationship, but longterm, you should follow the advice above and visit the town often before even deciding to move there.
> 
> Second, your plan is to buy a farm of three acres and make a go of that? I'm far, far from being the farmer type and maybe others will say that's a fine plan, but to me, that looks as if it is just subsistence farming at its most basic, hard, grueling work for the only rewards of barely enough to eat, and that is definitely not taking into account any meat, except what you grow yourself.
> 
> You mentioned building a nest egg of $60,000 to $70,000 before going down to El Porvenir. Does that include what you'll need to buy this farm, and for implements, etc? And neither of you will have an income coming in from investments or some sort of internet work in the States?
> 
> Well, your husband is from the area, and if he thinks you can make a go of it on three acres, I guess so. But, I hardly think there is any market down there for high quality produce or meat for fancy restaurants or high income urban dwellers as exists in the U.S.A. Anyway, you two have to sit down and know beforehand how you'll make a living on those three acres, and whether it will be more than just subsistence. That would make trips back to the U.S., or mail ordering all those U.S. products from the net, pretty much impossible.
> 
> Or, Baplin, what cash crops do you two plan to raise on these three acres that will do more than just feed the two of you?
> 
> Also on Spanish, it is not realistic to think that you're going to learn to speak Spanish as well as you do English by just practicing in Georgia before you go. That is, not unless, you live only with your future husband and his relatives and speak nothing more than Spanish among yourselves for a few years. That statement gave me a kind of pause about how realistic your other plans are.
> 
> Of course, you can do it. You may have much more planned out than appeared in your posts and I'm just being silly. O jalá!


Well that's why I joined this forum to get opinions and advice from people just like you who know a lot more than I do.  I have just began planning and I wanted to reasonable with my expectations. I have a tendency to loose myself in my imagination and will make grandeur plans that amount to very little due to lack of planning. 

I know that Manuel and his family speaks Spanish but I also know his grandmother speaks another language (he called it Mum---> and I am almost sure that its not spelled right). 

I get the culture shock of leaving the states but I am not sure it will affect me like it would most people. Most of my family doesn't really talk to me (my mother has passed on, my younger sister is getting married and moved to a different state, my older sister has her own family and plans to leave the state as well, and my dad is married and absorbed in his wife [I don't even see him on major holidays like Christmas!]) so as far as being away from family its not like I see them anyways. And I am pretty much an antisocial person by nature I don't go out much, or really at all so as far as missing any friends that's not a big deal. I would miss a working cell phone and working internet but to be honest I grew up without either one (I am 24 by the way my dad was pretty old school when it came to technology and gadgets) so I only recently obtained a lap top and have had a smart phone on and off for the past couple years (sometimes I revert back to a flip phone just depends on my mood to be honest). 

I think I would be happy as long as I had plenty of books, or least a way to get them, and supplies to write with. I don't know how available contacts would be down there since I am literally blind as a bat but again I just got those this year so using glasses wouldn't be the end of the world. And as far as hard work not deterred by that either. I have always held a job since I was sixteen (everything from restaurant work, to laying pine straw and working outside, to my current job as a legal assistant to an attorney) and I am pretty quick to learn.

My fiancé's family has more land that they already cultivate, and if I remember right, I think its several acres in itself. Part of the reason we decided to move down there is because his mother needs help. He still has several siblings under the age of 13 and he is the second oldest boy...all of his sisters before him are married and in there own places, and his brothers old enough to work are here in the states. So, with all that said we would really have more means than I posted.

But thank you for your response it did give me some things to consider.


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## TundraGreen

baplin said:


> Well that's why I joined this forum to get opinions and advice from people just like you who know a lot more than I do.  I have just began planning and I wanted to reasonable with my expectations. I have a tendency to loose myself in my imagination and will make grandeur plans that amount to very little due to lack of planning.
> 
> I know that Manuel and his family speaks Spanish but I also know his grandmother speaks another language (he called it Mum---> and I am almost sure that its not spelled right).
> 
> I get the culture shock of leaving the states but I am not sure it will affect me like it would most people. Most of my family doesn't really talk to me (my mother has passed on, my younger sister is getting married and moved to a different state, my older sister has her own family and plans to leave the state as well, and my dad is married and absorbed in his wife [I don't even see him on major holidays like Christmas!]) so as far as being away from family its not like I see them anyways. And I am pretty much an antisocial person by nature I don't go out much, or really at all so as far as missing any friends that's not a big deal. I would miss a working cell phone and working internet but to be honest I grew up without either one (I am 24 by the way my dad was pretty old school when it came to technology and gadgets) so I only recently obtained a lap top and have had a smart phone on and off for the past couple years (sometimes I revert back to a flip phone just depends on my mood to be honest).
> 
> I think I would be happy as long as I had plenty of books, or least a way to get them, and supplies to write with. I don't know how available contacts would be down there since I am literally blind as a bat but again I just got those this year so using glasses wouldn't be the end of the world. And as far as hard work not deterred by that either. I have always held a job since I was sixteen (everything from restaurant work, to laying pine straw and working outside, to my current job as a legal assistant to an attorney) and I am pretty quick to learn.
> 
> My fiancé's family has more land that they already cultivate, and if I remember right, I think its several acres in itself. Part of the reason we decided to move down there is because his mother needs help. He still has several siblings under the age of 13 and he is the second oldest boy...all of his sisters before him are married and in there own places, and his brothers old enough to work are here in the states. So, with all that said we would really have more means than I posted.
> 
> But thank you for your response it did give me some things to consider.


I liked both Meritorious's advice to you and your response to it. It does sound like you will have resources there with some of his family near by. How you will adapt to the change of culture, no one can really know, not even you. You mention several things that are in your favor: you are young but not fresh out of high school, you have had several different work experiences, your family is not especially close knit. All of these are helpful in going off to a new place. However, unless you are a prodigy at language learning ability, for your first year or more you will be pretty isolated and able to talk only to your fiancé.

You mention that you tend to have a good imagination and make large plans. That can be a plus if you couple it with patience and persistence. If you are willing to keep at something through a difficult beginning, your great plans can happen. Many people who come to Mexico and fail to adapt don't really give it enough time. It has taken me more than five years in Mexico before my Spanish was good enough that I could comfortably communicate and also that long to make a significant number of Mexican friends. In the early years, I knew a few other English speakers that I spent time with. That was good and bad. It slowed down my acquisition of Spanish, but it meant I was not too isolated. You might not have that luxury. Without English speakers around, your Spanish will improve faster (being a lot younger than I am won't hurt on that score as well). But, as others have said the isolation may be hard.

You have several years to make this come together. To repeat an earlier suggestion, I hope you will make many trips to visit his family and your future home before the time comes to make the move.


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## ojosazules11

baplin said:


> I think I would be happy as long as I had plenty of books, or least a way to get them, and supplies to write with.


In terms of accessing books in remote areas, I was so delighted when I discovered I could download books in remote highland areas of Guatemala on my 3G Kindle. Other e-readers will likely work as well (if they are 3G you don't need WiFi - as long as there is a cell phone signal you can download without extra charges for data). Some of the e-readers will allow you to access library books for free, so you might want to look into that.

If you end up having a smart phone in Mexico with data, that will also let you access books. I know in remote, mountainous areas cell coverage can be iffy (although it's actually pretty good in Guatemala in my experience).


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Baplin, if the grandmother speaks a language that you had difficulty remembering, it's almost certainly an indigenous language. You're going to have a fairly rare experience if so. Your comment "I think I would be happy as long as I had plenty of books, or least a way to get them, and supplies to write with" says that you have a literary bent. I'd therefore advise that if you go forward, or even just explore this move in a few visits, that you take copious notes, as it could make a heck of a book. I recently read a great book by an Australian woman who fell in love with a French guy and moved to Paris cold, with no preparation, and it was an immense cultural shock for both of them, and that was to supposedly highly cultural France. You'd have so much more to write about than she did, but her book could be a guide. It's in libraries. "Love and a New Life in Paris," by Sarah Turnbull.

As you and Tundra Green say, you have a lot of time to decide, and you are planning on making reconnaissance trips down there.

Two other thoughts. One is hackneyed but generally true. If you're unhappy in one place, moving to somewhere else generally won't change the underlying causes of that unhappiness.

Second, on "I am pretty much an antisocial person by nature I don't go out much, or really at all so," well, one of the great aspects of living in Mexico is how social its people are, how gregarious and open to others, although being so family oriented. One way to embrace that, at least in the beginning, is to think of it as somehow being on stage, since you'll be speaking Spanish, so play a gregarious person and say "hola" to everyone. It could go well.

But since you are seeking advice, in the years of investigation, ask why all of the brothers and your fiancé left the security of the family farm for the United States, and I'll bet the answer is money, money, money, that there is just so little cash in a smallish farm, and what will that mean to you and your husband for the long run, especially, if it seems as most Mexicans do these things, the land will pass to all family members, not just those working them. Therefore, if you and your future husband work your tails off for 10-20 years, you'll only be in line for one-seventh or whatever once the land is distributed. And the people with money to buy out the others will probably be the family that stayed in the States the longest and lived frugally.

Please keep giving us feedback throughout this process.


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## citlali

Mam is a Maya language from some parts of Guatemala and they are quite a few Mams living in Chiapas in that area so the grand-mother is probably indigenous .
You should be able to learn SPanish in 3 years or less if you really put your mind to it, but you will have to work hard at it and speak nothing but Spanish with your husband. In the back country Spanish is pretty basic as many people speak other languages so the people are easier to understand than people from the larger cities.
My advice to you is learn SPanish and visit for a month or so before moving. Live the live of your husband ´s family and think hard before you make a decision. It is easier to help someone by sending money than to join them in a life of poverty.

Many men go to the US , work hard and go home and start a business. start a farm or start a business but many have wifes that are local and have no problem living their life style, you may be ok with it and may not be.

Having time to read or be on the internet in those areas is a major luxury so do not count on having a whole lot of free time to do that. There will be pressure on you to participate on the work of the other women and will be an outcast if you do not work at whatever with the other women in the family. 
Ask yourself if a more communal life is what you are up to...

You are young so you are more flexible just go there and ask yourself is that the way I want to live for the rest of my life. What do I do when I start having children, what do I do when I get sick..and so on. do not dream be objective and practical and meanwhile save the money because no matter what you will be able to use it one way or another.
Good luck to you . Chiapas is a beautiful place but life here in the country is hard, the climate is hard, there is a lot of prejudices, lots of ignorance, and it can get to you after a while.


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## maesonna

Just as a minor detail – about the plumbing – when you get to that stage you might want to check out designs for a dry separating eco-latrine. Look, for example, at ecoletrina.sdsu.edu for an illustrated explanation. Search {letrina ecológica separa orina heces} (string of words without quotes) for further information from other sources.


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## citlali

one difference about the Australian moving to Paris: life in Paris or France is not communal like it is in the country in Chiapas. You do not have the pressure of the other women to work with thm non stop all day you can go out and buy whatever you want and plus-
Women in the country work all day because life is basic everything takes more time to do and you do not have a whole lot of leisure time to read or write
The Australian woman has no idea what real culture schock I promise you in comparason to the life in the State versus rural Chiapas in the Sierra.

I spend time with some indigenous friends, they get up at 4 am to make nixtamal, cook beans , take care of the chickens and turkeys, build the fire and cook breakfast..that takes about 3 hours.. Then you have to clean the dishes outside at the sink in cold water . 
Then clean house, then clean clothes some by hand some by machine, one of those that is not automatic and has a separate spinner , then hang the clothes and so on and so forth all day. By the way that is if you are well off otherwise you wash everything by hand.Family meals are prepared together with the mother in law and the sisters- in- law. If you make tamales for 20 or 25 people you make 600 as you have to give some to every member of the extended family. Meanwhile you are at 9800 feet and it is cold so you only take a shower in the afternoon when it is warmer.
The little time women have they sit together and embroider or weave and gossip that is when you catch up with the news. You may or may not have tv reception, same with , phone same with internet. Electricity is relatively expensive so you have one light bulb. Any major departure of the traditional way of life is criticized and discussed.

By the way do you know how to kill a chicken or a turkey and dress it because that is a woman´s job. 
Last meal I was invited to , the women killed about 3 or 4 chickens and prepared them and after the stew was ready we all sat around the fire and ate the stew with our fingers, no implements.
Some meat was hanging over the fire being smoked and dried.
Then a kid came in with a woodpecker he had killed wih a sling and the bird was quickly prepared thrown on the fire and eaten, more woman work.

There is one thing in common with all the villages and towns in the mountains, they are extremely poor and that is why the men leave for the States,
The Australian woman thought she had culture schock but she had no clue what real culture schock is, at keast she had the time to write, you do not have much time when you live a basic life in the country and have to keep up with the other women.


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## citlali

The correct spelling of the name of the group from Guatemala is Mame but pronounced like you said..mum..


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## ojosazules11

citlali said:


> one difference about the Australian moving to Paris: life in Paris or France is not communal like it is in the country in Chiapas. You do not have the pressure of the other women to work with thm non stop all day you can go out and buy whatever you want and plus-
> Women in the country work all day because life is basic everything takes more time to do and you do not have a whole lot of leisure time to read or write
> The Australian woman has no idea what real culture schock I promise you in comparason to the life in the State versus rural Chiapas in the Sierra.
> 
> I spend time with some indigenous friends, they get up at 4 am to make nixtamal, cook beans , take care of the chickens and turkeys, build the fire and cook breakfast..that takes about 3 hours.. Then you have to clean the dishes outside at the sink in cold water .
> Then clean house, then clean clothes some by hand some by machine, one of those that is not automatic and has a separate spinner , then hang the clothes and so on and so forth all day. By the way that is if you are well off otherwise you wash everything by hand.Family meals are prepared together with the mother in law and the sisters- in- law. If you make tamales for 20 or 25 people you make 600 as you have to give some to every member of the extended family. Meanwhile you are at 9800 feet and it is cold so you only take a shower in the afternoon when it is warmer.
> The little time women have they sit together and embroider or weave and gossip that is when you catch up with the news. You may or may not have tv reception, same with , phone same with internet. Electricity is relatively expensive so you have one light bulb. Any major departure of the traditional way of life is criticized and discussed.
> 
> By the way do you know how to kill a chicken or a turkey and dress it because that is a woman´s job.
> Last meal I was invited to , the women killed about 3 or 4 chickens and prepared them and after the stew was ready we all sat around the fire and ate the stew with our fingers, no implements.
> Some meat was hanging over the fire being smoked and dried.
> Then a kid came in with a woodpecker he had killed wih a sling and the bird was quickly prepared thrown on the fire and eaten, more woman work.
> 
> There is one thing in common with all the villages and towns in the mountains, they are extremely poor and that is why the men leave for the States,
> The Australian woman thought she had culture schock but she had no clue what real culture schock is, at keast she had the time to write, you do not have much time when you live a basic life in the country and have to keep up with the other women.


There is much wisdom in what Citlali says about living in a small, subsistence-level indigenous community. I suspect you'll find yourself frequently saying, "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Georgia anymore."

But before you despair because you haven't learned to make tortillas and tamales yet (although maybe you have?), there is a downside and an upside to being an outsider. The downside is feeling just that, like an outsider. You may not feel like it all the time, you may be getting settled and feel you've adapted, but then something happens that makes you realize how different your cultural references really are, and you don't even have anyone else who understands where you are coming from. Even though your husband and brothers-in-law have been living in the US, once back home they will likely revert back to the cultural norms of their roots. You may feel like "Who are you and what have you done with my husband?"

The upside to being an outsider, in my experience, is that the expectations placed on you are different and allowances are made. I doubt the other women will expect you to know how to make tortillas and tamales, or kill a chicken. If you do your best to join in and learn as well as you can, the other women will likely be delighted by your efforts. If, however, you don't even try to participate, there may be a sense that you feel you are above doing that kind of work, and that is a dynamic which would not be healthy for your family. Smiling a lot and showing a willingness to pitch in goes a long way.

In addition to my own, I've known many cross-cultural marriages, both living in US/Canada and in Latin America. I think when a couple has been living NOB and then moves back to Latin America, the transition is difficult. I've known couples who have made the transition successfully, and others which have ended up separating, even when the non-Latin spouse was fluent in Spanish and culturally competent. 

I think one key is to win over your mother-in-law. Let her see how much you love and support her son. Ask her to help you learn the things you don't know. While my next piece of advice may rub against the grain of anyone with feminist sensibilities (myself included), I have to point it out. In traditional Latin American culture a woman serves her husband his coffee and food. This is deeply rooted. In our home in Toronto, my husband and I serve each other, depending on who is up first in the morning, who has cooked, etc. Sometimes we put the food on the table, and each person serves themself. When we are with his family - especially my MIL - I serve him his food. If I don't my MIL calls me to do it. As his wife, this task is mine. One Guatemalan friend told me that for her, serving her family their food is sacred, a privilege not a burden. I shift my thinking when we are down South, and it works for me. 

I echo everyone's advice about making a trip down to visit his family - if possible an extended visit. If he is currently unable to travel, even you going down by yourself with the children would be helpful. One Canadian friend who was married to a Mayan man from Guatemala went to visit her mother-in-law by herself for a couple of months (with their first child). My friend spoke Spanish (had learned it in Toronto with her husband - way easier to learn a second language when in your 20's), but her MIL's Spanish was rudimentary. They had a great time, she was well received, well treated, and it strengthened her marriage overall. You do need to see the reality on the ground before making a big move.


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## citlali

Even though your husband and brothers-in-law have been living in the US, once back home they will likely revert back to the cultural norms of their roots. You may feel like "Who are you and what have you done with my husband?"

Ojosazules11 statement is the major cause of problems in bicultural marriages. In France we have a lot of migrants from North Africa and a friend of my father was working for the diplomatic corps.
He had many stories of young French women being married to Algerians, Tunisians etc and he would spend most of his time them to get out of the country with or without their children. It was the same story over and over, the husband had reverted to his culture and was under the order of his mother and had totaly changed. 
The reverting to the original culture for one of the spouse can be a major problem.

I have a male friend from the Ivory Coast, he comes from a well educated family and he came to France to study to become the Director of the Music Conseratory back home. He married a white woman doctor in France. His culture is matriarchal and the sister and mothers pick the wife for the man and they invite the woman to live with them before they accept her in the house and before the marriage. The women check that the future bride will be able to take care of her husband, check that she can do all the daily chores and only after she passes the test can she enter the family.
My friend´s mother told her son." if you want a French wife live in France do not bring her here to live, it never works out for white women to enter our culture." 
The mother and sisters come and visit him in France and are appalled tha the takes care of the daugher or cooks but accept it because he is in France, back home it just could not happen.

If you want another great exemple of this type of thing see the movie "Not without my daughter" with Sally Field.
No one is right or wrong it is just a clash between two cultures with different values.

On the other hand I know a young woman who went to live in Algeria and is perfectly happy to be home all day with all the other women in the house, does her nails, watches Mexican soap operas, does absolutly nothing all day , only goes out with other women and with a male relatie and so on..Some people can adapt to something totally different but not many.

In your case you say you like farming, you like the country , you would be happy to have a close family so you may be able to adjust and be happy in a small town in Chiapas, everyone is different.
I enjoy my stay with families, they all call me metik , I have no problems helping out in the kitchen and with the daily chores but when the week or week-end are over I can leave, if I could not I do not know how I would feel about it.


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## Isla Verde

Just a footnote to citlali's most recent post: You won't know what someone is like till you spend time with them in their native country/culture.


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## citlali

One idea for you,. if you can in the next 6 years study to teach English as a second language.
That would be one way for you to get a little cash. Since many men leave for the US to work they will be interested in taking classes, you cannot charge a lot but that will be a little cash, also some of them may apply for visa, learn all there is to learn about visa and become a facilitator for that area and you can charge for that as well.
I do it for free for artisans I know but you could charge the same or a little less than what facilitators charge. You can also help the men to apply for Mexican passports. It is easy but many do not know how to read or write so they need help. 
All of that would bring you a little money , and you could help people in the town or village which would be good.
Once you ae Mexican citizen you may be able to get a job in the local school...you never know..


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## RVGRINGO

Lots of good advice here. We had a young woman in our family, married to a Mexican from a small town. She tried hard, but became a baby factory, while he instantly reverted to the fighting-cock lifestyle with his male friends. She and five children are in the USA and he is back in Mexico with a new wife and kids. No support, no contact, no divorce and no future prospects for her. Sad, but she was never good at listening to advice.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Lots of good advice here. We had a young woman in our family, married to a Mexican from a small town. She tried hard, but became a baby factory, while he instantly reverted to the fighting-cock lifestyle with his male friends. She and five children are in the USA and he is back in Mexico with a new wife and kids. No support, no contact, no divorce and no future prospects for her. Sad, but she was never good at listening to advice.


A sad, cautionary tale, RV. Did the husband of your relative revert to type in Mexico, or were they still living in the US when this happened?


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## RVGRINGO

In the USA, he probably just hid his real persona to suit his ambitions. Once married, he started raising cocks again, thinking he would get rich.


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## sara99

My boyfriend and I are getting married this month and are planning to move to Chiapas in about six years (we are trying to save $60,000 to $70,000 before we move). He's from Chiapas and ended up leaving when he was about sixteen years old and due to the time laspse I figure that quite a few things have changed while he's been away. This is the back story.
I have never been outside the southeast USA, to be quite honest I have only left l Georgia maybe once or twice so I am having a bit of mixed emotions about moving
At any rate our plan is to buy at least three acres of land to build a house on, farm produce and what not, as well has raise horses, cows, sheep, etc. I was wondering if anyone know the cost of doing this and what Chiapas is like from a view point that is currently or has at least been living there recently. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would not do this. why:
a mex judge for marriage said me - mex woman and foreign man works ever 
but foreign woman and mex man works never.
and what I hear is like this - divorce, fight for kids, fight for money, they didnt do separation of property and lose a lot, man escape with other woman, and all trouble is expensive because of 2 counties,....
You take a lot money, this area is poor. read the news for security there, mara ... .
Be mex woman is not like in your country. the boss is the man and his family in mx. 
Do you want kids? this problem will come in Mexico. Farm and kids could be a lot stress for foreigner. mex women are hard.
my privat experience is - mex say a lot and want to do more as a lot. but at the end is nothing. be careful what you do.
the health system in chiapas is not like in the cities. you should be in stable good health to do this.

yes, the plan is very attractive, first you should do holiday there and check if you can with this family members and this life style. and check if you can with this health system. 
do separation of property if you want marry.
marry only for this plan is not necessary - there are other visa to have the same.


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## citlali

Lots of good adice. The IMSS and Seguro Popularcan be ion the scary side.
Actually some Tzotsiles right now are asking for justice for one of the woman who died at th Woman Hospital in San Cristobal, they removed her goldbladder and tied her tubes while doing a cearian and the young woman diedfor lack f care according to th papers..
A young woman I know had a c section in the same hospital she was in in the morning and out the next. Check out the clinic in EL Porvenir or Motozintla and see what you think.

sara 99 brought up an important point when you get married you can be married uncer community property where eerything is split in two or separation of property where all you assets from before and after the marriage remain yours and yours only. If you are both saving mony in the States you may want to do the same in the States and not mix assets because you will be a babe in the wooods once you come to Mexico.

You may be as tough as a Mexican woman but it is not your culture so listen to Sara99 she has some good points.


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## RVGRINGO

As indicated above, you will be the lowest one on the totem pole; all of the totem poles. If you enter into conflict over children, or much of anything else, your husband will always win, as will his family; not you or yours. You may even find that your passport has legs.
Frankly, wait to marry or procreate until you have a few years under your belt in Mexico; then, only if supremely happy.
We have had experience with an indigeneous friend who married a more Mexican girl. When she fell ill in pregnancy, he and his family took her to a shaman. She got a lot worse and ended up in a proper hospital to save her life. Then, their money ran out and so did he, but he went over a cliff in his pickup truck and was killed. Now, she is doing a bit better cleaning houses back in town.


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## Isla Verde

Aren't there any happy stories to be shared of bi-cultural marriages?


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## Hound Dog

_


Isla Verde said:



Aren't there any happy stories to be shared of bi-cultural marriages?

Click to expand...

_Yes, indeed. While this bi-cultural unión involves a Latina, she is French, not Mexican; however, I can attest that bi-cultural marriages can work out well although I must admit that my mother-in-law and extended family live across the pond in France and that helps. This Alabama boy married a Parisienne 43 years ago in Mobile and hasn´t choked down even one serving of dried up corn pone, one bowl of cheese grits, one package of "cracklins" or any deep fried okra smothered in ketchup and washed down with "sweet tea" or RC Cola since 1971. There are some other good things about this unión as well but just the new French food horizons alone will suffice to justify the that move back when I was wet behind the ears.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Aren't there any happy stories to be shared of bi-cultural marriages?


I know a couple living in a village about an hour south of Guadalajara. He is a red neck from Tennessee. She is Mexican. They are living together happily and raising 17 adopted kids with the help of the oldest who is their biological son. I know a woman who came here as a Peace Corp volunteer, met a younger Mexican man. They are now married and living in Washington State. I know a toxicologist who came to Mexico as a Peace Corps volunteer: He met a Mexican lady, a superior court judge in Tlaxacala. They aren't married but they are still together in Mexico 5 or 6 years later.

Amongst my friends and acquaintances there are probably another dozen intercultural couples. As far as I know they are all working out. Maybe the most unusual combination is a professor at the University of Guadalajara. He married a woman from the US. Her father, while visiting her in Guadalajara at some point, fell in love with and married her husband's sister. So now the professor and his father-in-law are also brothers-in-law. The kids are trilingual, equally fluent in Spanish, English and French, the last because they attend a French-English-Spanish school.


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## citlali

There are plenty of bicultural marriage, both my nephews are married to Asian women and are happy , one of my cousin is married to a Chinese woman and lives happilly in Taiwan, my sister is married to a Spaniard and has been married a long time but how many US women does anyone know who married a Mexican from a very remote community in a place like Chiapas or Oaxaca and went to live here and is happily married? 
I have not come accross one yet bu maybe there some, I will ask around when I am down there and see what kind of an anwer I get.

Sorry I know of one such marriage a Japanese classical musician married a mestizo musician called Damien . Damien was born and draised in Zinacantan a Tsotsil town with his brother and speak Tsotsil. He and his brother and his wife formed a band and play a rock, indigenous fusion music. They are pretty popular.
Last time I was in Zinacantan I asked my friend who were he Japanese tourists dressed as indigenous and she told me" they are my neighbors"...check out the music of Sak Tzevul in youtube. One of the famous Tsotsil song and dance is Bolomchon.
Who would have guess that this marriage would have taken place? You just never know.


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## ojosazules11

citlali said:


> I know of one such marriage a Japanese classical musician married a mestizo musician called Damien . Damien was born and raised in Zinacantan a Tsotsil town with his brother and speak Tsotsil. He and his brother and his wife formed a band and play a rock, indigenous fusion music. They are pretty popular.
> Last time I was in Zinacantan I asked my friend who were the Japanese tourists dressed as indigenous and she told me "they are my neighbors"...check out the music of Sak Tzevul in youtube. One of the famous Tsotsil song and dance is Bolomchon.
> Who would have guess that this marriage would have taken place? You just never know.


Thank you for this, Citlali. Based on your recommendation, I've enjoyed watching several of their music videos on YouTube. Sak Tzevul apparently means "Relámpago" (Lightning). Interested in finding out more about the band, I came across this website, which is named "Weaving our Roots". It tells the Japanese woman, Rie Watanabe's story about the journey which led her to being married to Damián Martínez, joining the band and living in Zinacantán.

For those who can read Spanish it's interesting and inspiring on many levels. Her first trip to Mexico was when she was still a child for a musical cultural interchange. Already at that age she recognized that while she was a technically more proficient musician than the Mexican children, they had a joy in playing music that she did not experience in the more rigid and competitive environment she was training in. However it wasn't until nearly 20 yrs later when she became ill and nearly lost her sight that she really took stock of how and where she wanted to live her life. Destiny eventually led her to Chiapas and Zinacantán, where she met her future husband and stayed. She has many other interesting reflections, including incorporation of the Mayan cosmovision in their music.

Rie como miembro de Sak Tzevul


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Sorry I know of one such marriage a Japanese classical musician married a mestizo musician called Damien . Damien was born and draised in Zinacantan a Tsotsil town with his brother and speak Tsotsil. He and his brother and his wife formed a band and play a rock, indigenous fusion music. They are pretty popular.


What an interesting story, citlali. It looks like their musical talents helped them bridge the enormous cultural differences that exist between Japan and Zinacantán!


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> Just a footnote to citlali's most recent post: You won't know what someone is like till you spend time with them in their native country/culture.


So true. And that doesn't mean they will become "jerks". Many people are very nice and decent people no matter where they are living in the world (or are jerks no matter where they are living). But if moving back to a spouse's place/culture of origin, experiencing what they are like in that context is important.

To clarify my earlier post, the expectation about me serving my husband his coffee and his food is my mother-in-law's expectation, not my husband's. Whether at our home in a Toronto or our own house in Mexico, he is as likely to make food and coffee for me as vice versa.

I actually first knew my husband in Mexico, so no unexpected surprises when we go back. One of my earliest memories of him, before we were in a relationship, was when a group of us - men and women - were gathered around a fire in the patio of a friend's house, conversing. My husband quietly got up, went into the house (not even his place), made coffee, brought it outside and served everyone. At that point I could see he was a keeper.




Isla Verde said:


> Aren't there any happy stories to be shared of bi-cultural marriages?


Mine!!


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## citlali

Mine too!


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

citlali said:


> Mine too!


How do we know for sure that you and ojosazules aren't tied to a tree all day long, when you're not doing the dishes, thrashing the wheat or slaughtering and dressing chickens?


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## citlali

well I think all of the above is ok as long as it is a choice. Believe it or not I learned how to kill chickens and rabbits before I left France so I would know how to do it when I lived alone , just in case.
Did not need it as you could find them at the supermarket and when I lived with Pakistanis , the men in the family cut the throat of the chicken on the patio facing Mecca so I never had to do it after that not even while living with Moslems.

Never had to make coffee at the office either, I just would add a pinch of salt to any cup and I quicly got the reputation of making the worst coffee. First thing my boss did when he arrived was to make coffee before I got to the coffee pot and then I became the boss so that I never had to make coffee either.


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## ojosazules11

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> How do we know for sure that you and ojosazules aren't tied to a tree all day long, when you're not doing the dishes, thrashing the wheat or slaughtering and dressing chickens?


Wel, I did grow up in wheat threshing, corn husking land (Nebraska and Kansas). While the combine threshed the wheat, I husked plenty of corn in my childhood! 

I can also butcher a chicken, although when I was small my parents had to put me in the house when butchering, as I'd try to chase the chickens away so they wouldn't be killed. Then when I was in college, a group of friends decided that ethically if we were going to eat meat, we needed to have the experience of raising an animal and butchering it ourselves. So they bought a bunch of chicks, raised them, and then we had a day where we all got together to butcher and freeze the chickens. 

I have not kept up this particular skill, but watch in awe as my mother-in-law can take a chicken from strutting around the patio to the soup pot in less than 5 minutes.

Oh, and we are also untied from that tree enough to post on the Forum!


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