# YOU & Spanish!!!



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> And that's not even mentioning the language difference.


 ... between one place in Spain and another. In this village you will hear Andalu', Castellano, and Castillero!


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> ... between one place in Spain and another. In this village you will hear Andalu', Castellano, and Castillero!


Don't, please don't!

I'm trying to learn Spanish at the moment and am utterly confused by the sheer number of words they have for the simple English word, you. Why an earth do they need so many?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Don't, please don't!
> 
> I'm trying to learn Spanish at the moment and am utterly confused by the sheer number of words they have for the simple English word, you. Why an earth do they need so many?


I can only think of two..... well, three if you take gender into account


tú & vosotros/vosotras


unless you insist on using the usted/ustedes, which you don't _have _to use - apart from the fact that it is used less now than previously, most Spanish will 'forgive the foreigner' even if they feel that you should be using it!!

you can always add them in later if you want to, when you're more confident & have more important things sorted out in your head


anyhow back to_ hipotecas _:focus:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

There's 5 words for ' slice' .???


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> Don't, please don't!
> 
> I'm trying to learn Spanish at the moment and am utterly confused by the sheer number of words they have for the simple English word, you. Why an earth do they need so many?


Blame Latin!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I can only think of two..... well, three if you take gender into account
> 
> 
> tú & vosotros/vosotras
> ...


tú, tí, ...tigo, vosotros, os, usted, ustedes...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> tú, tí, ...tigo, vosotros, os, usted, ustedes...


the _te_ & _os _I think of more as 'yourself' & 'yourselves'

& as I said, you can 'forget about' _usted _& _usetedes_, at least at first if you chose to


I'll give you the _tí & tigo _though  - although a beginner might not come across them for a while


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> the _te_ & _os _I think of more as 'yourself' & 'yourselves'
> 
> & as I said, you can 'forget about' _usted _& _usetedes_, at least at first if you chose to
> 
> ...


It is one of my themes in "Confusions in Spanish". Quite often, you will find, at least in this area, older people who don't know you will use Usted (Uste') and Ustedes and they are quite common in South America.

IMO 'te' is much more of an object pronoun rather than just reflexive, e.g I could say to you, "quiero conocerte" and mean it!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> It is one of my themes in "Confusions in Spanish". Quite often, you will find, at least in this area, older people who don't know you will use Usted (Uste') and Ustedes and they are quite common in South America.
> 
> IMO 'te' is much more of an object pronoun rather than just reflexive, e.g I could say to you, "quiero conocerte" and mean it!


Having lived half my life in France, I'm used to having the formal vous (ustéd) and the informal tu (tu) and I always use 'ustéd' to adults until I know them well - I like it, feel it refines the communication, and consider it simple courtesy. That said, there are areas in both countries where people use 'tu' from the start, but I still wait a while before presuming to do it. 

I agree, one is always forgiven for using the wrong one.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

God this has been a funny thread 
Mortgages in spain 
Now language courses 
Building work
Talk about going off thread ) ha ha


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I can only think of two..... well, three if you take gender into account
> 
> tú & vosotros/vosotras


I think you'll find there's a lot more than that!

You've got Tú, Vosotros/Vosotras (which I'm told is the familiar word for you as used in Spain) and Usted/Ustedes (which is the familiar word for you as used in Latin America).

Add in the singular and plural possessives: Tu and Tus for your, Su and Sus for your, Tuyo, Tuya, Suyo, Suya.

Now the personal pronouns for all that lot: Tu, Te, Lo/La, Le, Los, Les and Os! 

Now you've got all the verb endings to learn that go with them!

All for the two English words You and Your/s!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tonyinspain said:


> God this has been a funny thread
> Mortgages in spain
> Now language courses
> Building work
> Talk about going off thread ) ha ha


We do tend to do that occasionally because sometimes it is appropriate, although, quite often, Mods will either pull us up about it or shunt the diversion off into a new thread.

:focus:


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> We do tend to do that occasionally because sometimes it is appropriate, although, quite often, Mods will either pull us up about it or shunt the diversion off into a new thread.
> 
> :focus:


Ha ha funny old world


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> I think you'll find there's a lot more than that!
> 
> You've got Tú, Vosotros/Vosotras (which I'm told is the familiar word for you as used in Spain) and Usted/Ustedes (which is the familiar word for you as used in Latin America).
> 
> ...


ahhh - now you're including possessives, pronouns etc!!


that's different altogether - they don't all mean YOU.....


verb endings aren't hard - it's all about patterns


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> We do tend to do that occasionally because sometimes it is appropriate, although, quite often, Mods will either pull us up about it or shunt the diversion off into a new thread.
> 
> :focus:


funny you should say that.........


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> - they don't all mean YOU.....


Well they do, or at least they're all connected to the word you, depending on which of the three versions of the Spanish you, you're using and what you're saying.

My point was, in English you have one of three choices, you, your or yours. Look at the sheer number of variations of those three words Spanish uses. I haven't counted them up, but there's probably about 20 different Spanish words to say you, your or yours.

To make things even worse the English phrase the _book of yours_ will sometimes be translated in Spanish as the _book of hers_ or _his_ depending on gender!

Spanish can be utterly confusing to English learners and people used to constructing sentences using English grammar rules because Spanish just doesn't follow them.

Yes verbs follow patterns except when you come across an irregular one  Ser and Estar are still somewhat bewildering to me.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> ..for the simple English word, you.
> Why an earth do they need so many?


To differentiate between formal/respectful and informal/intimate/casual and between singular and plural.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Well they do, or at least they're all connected to the word you, depending on which of the three versions of the Spanish you, you're using and what you're saying.
> 
> My point was, in English you have one of three choices, you, your or yours. Look at the sheer number of variations of those three words Spanish uses. I haven't counted them up, but there's probably about 20 different Spanish words to say you, your or yours.
> 
> ...


even the irregualr verbs are in groups which follow patterns


& yes, most of my students struggle with SER & ESTAR until I explain it, so I do understand your problem


for some reason they have always seemed perfectly straightforward to me


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> for some reason they have always seemed perfectly straightforward to me


Well, would you mind explaining which of Ser and Estar would be used in the following statement: Lunch is at my parents' house. Would it be es or está? Because as I understand it, the use of those two verbs depends entirely on your implied meaning of that statement, because in the English version, the implied meaning isn't made clear.

This is why I find Ser and Estar confusing.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> You've got Tú, Vosotros/Vosotras (which I'm told is the familiar word for you as used in Spain) and Usted/Ustedes (which is the familiar word for you as used in Latin America).


No, Sorry but even in L.Am. Usted and Ustedes are not familiar but *always *formal (for people you don't know, especially if you think they may be people to whom you should look up/senior in rank, e.g. you serve in a shop and you are speaking to a customer, etc; officialdom; the President, et al after you have gone through the rigmarole of Your Excellency, etc and have been given permission to relax a little) and semi formal such as you might use for your girl/boyfriend's parents or, if you are young(ish) your friend's parents The Tú forms should only be used (again in L.Am.) with personal acquaintances (i.e.those whom you might consider equals or who might consider you, thus), persons of lower rank (e.g. you are talking to the portero of your building) or people to whom you would normally grant the privilege of a formal salutation (Vd, Vds) if, and only if, they tell you to call them Tú. In Latin America , especially South America, they are much more formal and can be greatly offended if etiquette is not followed - one of the reasons Americans (gringos) are not liked when they come over as if greeting their long-lost brother/sister at the first meeting, it is considered gauche and extremely rude. I can get away with it to some extent here because, in many cases, I am older than the person I am addressing but I wouldn't do so in Colombia.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> Well, would you mind explaining which of Ser and Estar would be used in the following statement: Lunch is at my parents' house. Would it be es or está? Because as I understand it, the use of those two verbs depends entirely on your implied meaning of that statement, because in the English version, the implied meaning isn't made clear.
> 
> This is why I find Ser and Estar confusing.


Is Lunch at your parents' house, a permanent state? The answer is 'No' because it is there today and only for about an hour then it is a temporary thing so you must use _estar_.

If you wish to say you are English, French, Spanish, etc no matter when you say it, today, tomorrow, next year, it will be a permanent condition, you will never be any different (unless you revoke your previous nationalty on adopting a new one) so the verb is _ser_


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Well, would you mind explaining which of Ser and Estar would be used in the following statement: Lunch is at my parents' house. Would it be es or está? Because as I understand it, the use of those two verbs depends entirely on your implied meaning of that statement, because in the English version, the implied meaning isn't made clear.
> 
> This is why I find Ser and Estar confusing.


la comida es a la casa de mis padres

assuming you mean that you're eating the meal there - for 'events' you use SER


if you mean that _the ingredients _with which to prepare lunch are there, then you use ESTAR


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> *Is Lunch at your parents' house, a permanent state? The answer is 'No' because it is there today and only for about an hour then it is a temporary thing so you must use estar.*
> 
> If you wish to say you are English, French, Spanish, etc no matter when you say it, today, tomorrow, next year, it will be a permanent condition, you will never be any different (unless you revoke your previous nationalty on adopting a new one) so the verb is _ser_


but that's over-simplifying - which is why so many people get confused

using that theory, you should say 'Madrid ES en España'....and of course you don't....


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> No, Sorry but even in L.Am. Usted and Ustedes are not familiar but *always *formal


Thank you for clarifying this. So Usted/Ustedes is used as formal in Spain and Tú is informal, when should Vosotros/tras be used in Spain? Because (I'm really hoping just to ignore this one altogether!).


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Well, would you mind explaining which of Ser and Estar would be used in the following statement: Lunch is at my parents' house. Would it be es or está? Because as I understand it, the use of those two verbs depends entirely on your implied meaning of that statement, because in the English version, the implied meaning isn't made clear.
> 
> This is why I find Ser and Estar confusing.


If lunch is always at your parents house, use _ser_. If you're talking about today, or temporarily, during any specific period (past, future or present) then use _estar_. Well, that's a rougyh guide, anyway.

But I've never understood why one says "¿Donde _está_ la iglesia?" (or post office, whatever.) After all, its hardly likely to move in the night!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Thank you for clarifying this. So Usted/Ustedes is used as formal in Spain and Tú is informal, when should Vosotros/tras be used in Spain? Because (I'm really hoping just to ignore this one altogether!).


_Vosotros _is the plural of _tu_. If you're talking to one child, you use _tu_, if to more than one, _vosotros_.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Thank you for clarifying this. So Usted/Ustedes is used as formal in Spain and Tú is informal, when should Vosotros/tras be used in Spain? Because (I'm really hoping just to ignore this one altogether!).



you _could _get away with not using vosotros.... I did for AGES, by always directing my comments at just one person 

Vosotros/as is the informal 'you-all' - & isn't used at all outside Spain afaik

I rarely use the formal usted/ustedes - & when I'm teaching I teach the informal first & only introduce the use of the formal later, although it's there in teh verb tables so students are aware of it

A Spanish lawyer friend of mine once told me that the only time it's _essential _to use the formal is if you're talking to someone carrying a gun ( though I use _tú _when I've translated at the Guardia & I'm still here to tell the tale) or to a judge


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

desti said:


> If lunch is always at your parents house, use _ser_. If you're talking about today, or temporarily, during any specific period (past, future or present) then use _estar_. Well, that's a rougyh guide, anyway.
> 
> But I've never understood why one says "¿Donde _está_ la iglesia?" (or post office, whatever.) After all, its hardly likely to move in the night!


exactly - which is why permanent/temporary 'rule' is so very misleading!!


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> but that's over-simplifying - which is why so many people get confused


See! With that simple question, I got two different answers!

But your explanation is the one as I understand it. If you're referring to actually eating there you'd use es, if you're referring to the meal actually physically being there you'd use está.

But the problem as I explained in my question is that the implied meaning (are you eating there, or referring to the meal being there) is not made clear.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> See! With that simple question, I got two different answers!
> 
> But your explanation is the one as I understand it. If you're referring to actually eating there you'd use es, if you're referring to the meal actually physically being there you'd use está.
> 
> But the problem as I explained in my question is that the implied meaning (are you eating there, or referring to the meal being there) is not made clear.


yes, I see what you mean

I have taught English to Spanish people & not mostly teach Spanish to (mostly but not exclusively) English people

Spanish people would ask 'how do you know what you're talking about - eating the meal, or the ingredients for the meal?' when you say_ lunch is at my parents' house..._

they find it hard to understand why we only have one verb 'to be'


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> But your explanation is the one as I understand it. If you're referring to actually eating there you'd use es, if you're referring to the meal actually physically being there you'd use está.


Not exactly - it's more to do with specificity; so:
_Lunch is at my parents' house_ - no time specified, so one may assume that it always is.
_When we're staying at our holiday home, lunch is at my parents' house_ or _If we're working in town, lunch is at my parents' house_ - but only then, so está. 

In your example, it'd nearly always be _está_.

Try it with guapa - Eres guapa means, "You are pretty," but, Estas guapa, means, "You're looking pretty."


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

desti said:


> Not exactly - it's more to do with specificity; so:
> _Lunch is at my parents' house_ - no time specified, so one may assume that it always is.
> _When we're staying at our holiday home, lunch is at my parents' house_ or _If we're working in town, lunch is at my parents' house_ - but only then, so está.
> 
> ...


Location is always _estar_, whether it's a permanent location or not. Madrid está en España y la niña está en Madrid. However, I don't think you would use either in the example given. You would say for example: hoy comemos en casa de mis padres. If you said _la comida está en casa de mis padres_, it means we have to pick it up... not that we are eating it there. Even if it's a one-off, it would still be _ser_. La comida de fin de curso es en el nuevo Bistró.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> Location is always _estar_, whether it's a permanent location or not. Madrid está en España y la niña está en Madrid. However, I don't think you would use either in the example given. You would say for example: hoy comemos en casa de mis padres. If you said _la comida está en casa de mis padres_, it means we have to pick it up... not that we are eating it there. Even if it's a one-off, it would still be _ser_. La comida de fin de curso es en el nuevo Bistró.


that's what I said - you just said it better I think 


maybe since 2 of us agree they'll believe us


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

So much of Spanish is, to our English-speaking minds, illogical. For example genders which, to us, make no sense: an arm is masculine so are fingers and so is a shoulder (unless it is a shoulder of meat, e.g. lamb, in which case it is feminine) but hands are feminine despite ending in 'o' and there are very few rules to help us!.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

But then so is English for many speakers of other languages:


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## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> So much of Spanish is, to our English-speaking minds, illogical. For example genders which, to us, make no sense: an arm is masculine so are fingers and so is a shoulder (unless it is a shoulder of meat, e.g. lamb, in which case it is feminine) but hands are feminine despite ending in 'o' and there are very few rules to help us!.


Spanish is easy compared to German, which has 3 genders hwell:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Navas said:


> Spanish is easy compared to German, which has 3 genders hwell:


But England has more sexes: Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Middlesex (I wonder what they call people who come from there?)


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

anles said:


> Location is always _estar_, whether it's a permanent location or not. Madrid está en España y la niña está en Madrid. However, I don't think you would use either in the example given. You would say for example: hoy comemos en casa de mis padres. If you said _la comida está en casa de mis padres_, it means we have to pick it up... not that we are eating it there. Even if it's a one-off, it would still be _ser_. La comida de fin de curso es en el nuevo Bistró.


Yes, of course! I knew it "sounded" wrong after I'd answered so quickly! 
Also, someone said to me recently, "¿Donde has sido?" when I'd only been away a few days and would previously have thought it should be "¿Donde has estado?" Now, it sounds right with _sido_, but I don't understand the reasons!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> that's what I said - you just said it better I think
> 
> 
> maybe since 2 of us agree they'll believe us


I believe you! I like learning and I like being corrected when I'm wrong.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But England has more sexes: Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Middlesex (I wonder what they call people who come from there?)


& there isn't a Nossex............


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

It was not untill I started to learn Spanish, that I realise how poor, I am ashamed to say, my English is. I have had to read a book on English Grammar to refresh the school days from nearly 40 years ago, On a positive note I am really enjoying learning Spanish, even conjugating verbs etc, which also goes to prove you are never to old to learn.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> But England has more sexes: Essex, Sussex, Wessex, Middlesex (I wonder what they call people who come from there?)


I come from Middlesex  or at least I was born there and it is sadly no longer even considered a County! And I don't think Wessex exists as an area any more either.

Those words come from Anglo Saxon and Middlesex literally means 'land of the middle saxons' or in other words, those living between Wessex and Essex. Wes (West) Saxons and Es (East) Saxons and Sussex was Sus (South) Saxons.

Aren't words wonderful - just be careful of whose mouth they've been in 

And many thanks to all the people who have contributed their knowledge of Spanish to the thread, it's been most enlightening and useful for a Spanish learner such as myself.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

zenkarma said:


> If you're referring to actually eating there you'd use es, if you're referring to the meal actually physically being there you'd use está.


Another way of looking at it: use 'ser' when it means 'to take place'. So 'el almuerzo es en casa de mis padres' means that lunch takes place at my parents' house.


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## AlanS (Jan 1, 2013)

Estar or no estar, that is the question!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

cambio said:


> It was not untill I started to learn Spanish, that I realise how poor, I am ashamed to say, my English is. I have had to read a book on English Grammar to refresh the school days from nearly 40 years ago, On a positive note I am really enjoying learning Spanish, even conjugating verbs etc, which also goes to prove you are never to old to learn.


I, too had the same problem at school. I was born 1941 and many of the teachers were retirees brought out of mothballs to replace the younger ones who had gone to war and then refused to go back on the shelf. We never had a grammar teacher for the first four years of secondary school we had Eng Lit ones and all they seemed to be interested in was poetry (learn these twenty verses by heart for tomorrow) and Shakespeare (I still hate that). They would give us all sort of abstract subjects for essays. I always languished at 31st out of 32. I was better at French (good teacher) than English!!

Final year we got a grammar teacher. Hooray! decent essay subjects that you could get your teeth into, clause analysis, précis techniques, etc. In one term, I rose from 31st to 2nd. Since leaving school, I started teaching myself Russian (failed because it is a different alphabet and I had nobody to guide my pronunciation). My Spanish is self-taught. I also understand a little written Dutch, Portuguese, Gallego and Italian. 

I am currently reading a Spanish book which is a real test because there are absolutely no clues in English to help me. It is a book that I find important, about the cousin of one of our neighbours who ended up a Leftist outlaw and guerillero known as Cencerro all through the Civil War and a number of years after because he dared to challenge the power of the Rightists and the church. 

His aunt (not well and on her way out) was the custodian of the family's inheritance. The family was, otherwise, very poor as were so many under the latifunda system in Andalucía, so the prospective heirs were looking forward to getting their share and, thereby, alleviating some of their poverty. The local priest talked the aunt into making out her will to leave the money to the priest's sister so that it could thereby be fed into church coffers. The family were furious.

Cencerro went round to see her to reason with her and had a stand up row that all the neighbours heard. At one point he pulled out a pistol more to frighten her than anything else. A shot was fired (the bullet later recovered from the wooden mantlepiece). He left shortly after. The aunt was subsequently found dead on the floor displaying an injury that could well have been caused when she fell (possibly from a heart attack) or by being struck by the pistol. 

He was arrested and the Rightist hierarchy in the village proceded to 'fit him up'. They claimed that the injury to her head had been caused by the butt of the pistol but forensic science was not so advanced that it could be proved and there were no visible signs on the pistol. They knew their case was weak since he was just put into prison rather than being executed.

Eventually he escaped and literally "took to the hills" living in caves at the back of our house. Since he was an outlaw, he became the focus of a group of other outlaws and hence guerilleros. He became the most wanted of the outlaws in the Province because of his band's repeated attacks all over....

I'm still reading!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

desti said:


> Yes, of course! I knew it "sounded" wrong after I'd answered so quickly!
> Also, someone said to me recently, "¿Donde has sido?" when I'd only been away a few days and would previously have thought it should be "¿Donde has estado?" Now, it sounds right with _sido_, but I don't understand the reasons!


I think you will find that what they actually asked was: _¿Dónde has *ido*?_It sounds the same as ¿Dónde has sido? but is the past participle of the verb *ir* so they were saying: where have you been?


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

anles said:


> I think you will find that what they actually asked was: _¿Dónde has *ido*?_It sounds the same as ¿Dónde has sido? but is the past participle of the verb *ir* so they were saying: where have you been?


I was just wondering if it was that, after posting but before your reply, but I wouldn't have if I hadn't written it here - you know, seeing it written like that made it clearer.
Thank you.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I have been reading books in Spanish, its hard going and takes and age to work out a page but bloody good practice!!!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2013)

desti said:


> I was just wondering if it was that, after posting but before your reply, but I wouldn't have if I hadn't written it here - you know, seeing it written like that made it clearer.


Like when you spend days trying to find or remeber something, then at last you ask soemone and, before they get a chance to repky, you remember or find it, but you wouldn't have if you hadn't asked.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

On the 'ustedes' front it is true that in South America it is NOT always formal and would even be used to address to a group of toddlers. Vosotros is not used anywhere over there. There is no separate informal plural for 'you'.

On the 'ha sido' topic - where people may get confused is that Spanish actually prefers 'ser' in the perfect in many situations. E.g. in the passive voice, 'estar' corresponds to the perfect of ser. E.g. She is selected= Esta seleccionada. She has been selected=Ha sida seleccionada. You could say ha estado seleccionada, but it would sound strange as it implies she was only selected for a period of time which is now over....

This link here explains it well:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2181011


In my experience 'estado' is only used regularly to describe where someone has been or how someone was feeling/doing...e.g. Ha estado enfermo pero ahora está bien, or when that state or location in the past has since changed again...

If in doubt - ha sido is generally a good rule of thumb.... He estado is ugly too


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I taught modern foreign languages to learners from four to seventy over decades.
It is far too often forgotten that language has one and only one purpose: it is a tool for communication.
However bad your grammar if you have succeeded in putting over your message you have spoken the language.
I came to Spain with a smattering of Spanish but fluency in French, reasonable communication ability in Italian and a foundation of school Latin. Combining this knowledge with just opening my mouth and saying what I thought was correct slowly enabled me to become more fluent to the point that I now speak fluently but often ungrammatically - but I am understood and if a kind person corrects my mistakes I incorporate that correction into my existing language knowledge. 
Grammar is very important but it is not a set of holy rules like the Ten Commandments and alters over time and according to localised usage. Many British learners, especially those for whom memories of learning foreign languages go back to badly-taught school French, are hung-up and inhibited by fear of 'being wrong'. That's why teaching very young children is so easy and delightful. They lack these inhibitions, these feelings of 'embarassment' that so many adults have.
When I lived in Prague I spoke Czech so badly that people's eyes popped....but I was understood.
Start from that. The first time you make a Spanish utterance and get the required response you are speaking Spanish...you have communicated. Use every opportunity to speak...and to listen. Read everything, not just newspapers and books but supermarket signs, billboards, advertising...anything.
Listen and imitate. Think of how you learned your mother tongue...you listened, imitated, spoke, then learned to read and then to write. You have already learnt one language after all!
Whatever you do, don't feel embarassed by making mistakes. How many British people speak and write our language correctly?
I made quite a few mistakes in Czech such as using the wrong word and telling the secretary of my friend's husband that I was 'screwing' him, not looking for him, as I intended, and telling someone who asked for directions that I didn't know as I was an 'angel', not an Englishwoman.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I taught modern foreign languages to learners from four to seventy over decades.
> It is far too often forgotten that language has one and only one purpose: it is a tool for communication.
> However bad your grammar if you have succeeded in putting over your message you have spoken the language.
> I came to Spain with a smattering of Spanish but fluency in French, reasonable communication ability in Italian and a foundation of school Latin. Combining this knowledge with just opening my mouth and saying what I thought was correct slowly enabled me to become more fluent to the point that I now speak fluently but often ungrammatically - but I am understood and if a kind person corrects my mistakes I incorporate that correction into my existing language knowledge.
> ...


For me, the most important thing is to, first, get the pronunciation right, then when you try to speak to a native, even if you get the genders/ verb conjugations, etc wrong, the other person might at least have half a chance of interpreting what you want to say. English speakers tend to speak open mouthed/form their sounds in the vicinity of their front teeth/lips/tip of the tongue. Watch how the native speaker forms his/her sounds - watch the lips, tongue, the throat; are the sounds nasal/gutteral, etc. although these differences are less pronounced (npi) in Spanish than they are in French.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> For me, the most important thing is to, first, get the pronunciation right, then when you try to speak to a native, even if you get the genders/ verb conjugations, etc wrong, the other person might at least have half a chance of interpreting what you want to say. English speakers tend to speak open mouthed/form their sounds in the vicinity of their front teeth/lips/tip of the tongue. Watch how the native speaker forms his/her sounds - watch the lips, tongue, the throat; are the sounds nasal/gutteral, etc. although these differences are less pronounced (npi) in Spanish than they are in French.


in Spanish, pronunciation & tone are _everything!!_


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> & there isn't a Nossex............


Haven't you heard? There's a play called "NoSex please, we're British!!"


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

One of my pet hates though (I need to get out more, clearly) with pronunciation (and I 100% agree its imperative) is actually English speakers who insist on pronouncing Valencia, 'Balentheea' when they speak ENGLISH. It drives me absolutely nuts... Xabiachica do you notice that a lot where you are? As if we'd say 'This weekend I'm off to Pareeee' or 'Roma' in English (unless we're trying to be funny of course).... If you're speaking castellano, then fine, but even in valenciano its pronounced with an 's' sound for the 'c'.... 

Maybe I'm being a little harsh...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> One of my pet hates though (I need to get out more, clearly) with pronunciation (and I 100% agree its imperative) is actually English speakers who insist on pronouncing Valencia, 'Balentheea' when they speak ENGLISH. It drives me absolutely nuts... Xabiachica do you notice that a lot where you are? As if we'd say 'This weekend I'm off to Pareeee' or 'Roma' in English (unless we're trying to be funny of course).... If you're speaking castellano, then fine, but even in valenciano its pronounced with an 's' sound for the 'c'....
> 
> Maybe I'm being a little harsh...



I find it quite hard actually to use an 'English' pronunciation for Spanish cities when speaking English - equally I find it irritating to have to say _Londres _or _Nueva York, _when speaking Spanish - but I might not be understood if I didn't 

My main pet hate is people who decide that because they live in Spain they have to change their OWN name....

Kate becomes _Katerina, _Mary changes her name to_ María, _Robert is suddenly _Roberto_

I think I need to get out more too


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> One of my pet hates though (I need to get out more, clearly) with pronunciation (and I 100% agree its imperative) is actually English speakers who insist on pronouncing Valencia, 'Balentheea' when they speak ENGLISH. It drives me absolutely nuts... Xabiachica do you notice that a lot where you are? As if we'd say 'This weekend I'm off to Pareeee' or 'Roma' in English (unless we're trying to be funny of course).... If you're speaking castellano, then fine, but even in valenciano its pronounced with an 's' sound for the 'c'....
> 
> Maybe I'm being a little harsh...


I think you are mostly right. Some place names have English pronunciations and that is fine - anything else sounds pretentious. I have a relative who used to live in the Canaries and insisted that we should all pronounce Tenerife = Taynayreefay (sort of - you know what I'm getting at). I used the Paris/Paree analogy on her but she wouldn't have it. Strangely she would pronounce Jerez just like that - djerezz (if you see what I mean). 

But you are only partly right. I would expect an English person speaking English to pronounce Marbella as Marbaya, Jerez as Hereth and Jimena as Himena not djimeena as some do.

I don't know why I see the rules for some place names differently from others - any thoughts? Am I alone in thinking that?


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

jimenato said:


> I don't know why I see the rules for some place names differently from others - any thoughts? Am I alone in thinking that?


I came across an example of this quite recently when someone was asking how a place name in America should be pronounced. I can't remember what the place name was, but I do remember the question regarded the pronunciation of the J in for example Jose.

The question was, why was San Jose, pronounced San Hozay, when this other Jose was pronounced Jozie. The answer that came back was basically, that's how the inhabitants of that particular place want to pronounce it and that is how the place is known.

I don't see why the same principal wouldn't apply to place names in Spain.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

I knew I'd open up discussion here and agreed on the Marbella and Jerez pronunciations. (Ibe never heard people called the town 'sherry' though!! The difference lies in those cities which do specifically have English names - not just pronunciations. They are normally cities of a large size or of historical significance. Seville for examples and not Sevilla. Cadiz is spelt the same, but pronounced differently in English and with different stress. In Spanish it's CAHdeeth. In English it's caDIZ- officially. 

I remember when I did my language degree (Italian and German). I spent time in Leipzig in East Germany. As it is a city with huge history, the Italians have their own name for it - Lipsia.

Cornwall in Italian is Cornovaglia. Edinburgh in Spanish is Edimburgo. Glasgow however is just Glasgow...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> For me, the most important thing is to, first, get the pronunciation right, then when you try to speak to a native, even if you get the genders/ verb conjugations, etc wrong, the other person might at least have half a chance of interpreting what you want to say. English speakers tend to speak open mouthed/form their sounds in the vicinity of their front teeth/lips/tip of the tongue. Watch how the native speaker forms his/her sounds - watch the lips, tongue, the throat; are the sounds nasal/gutteral, etc. although these differences are less pronounced (npi) in Spanish than they are in French.


I think intonation, the 'music' of a language, is more important than pronunciation, although of course that's vital too. Every language has its own rhythms, its cadences and stresses and often its physical accompaniments, its 'body language'.. My second language is German and I often use it here. When I do, I find I'm adopting a whole new tone and use hardly any 'body language'with hands, facial expressions, unlike Romance languages where gestures and expressions amplify or underline overt meaning.

When I helped coach my grandson for his French viva I suggested that when he was searching for a word, he paused and gave a Gallic shrug and grunt, you know the kind....Anyway, he took my advice,made use of my suggestion...and passed with top grades.

A bit like Harold Wilson and the famous pipe-lighting business.....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> A bit like Harold Wilson and the famous pipe-lighting business.....


and Gannex mac! 

But the music of the language is not much use if you don't pronounce the words correctly.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

When I hear an English person referring to Paris as 'Paree', Naples as 'Napoli' or Vienna as 'Wien'...or even Prague as 'Praha'....I scent pretension, I'm afraid. That kind of language-hopping says a lot about a person.

When I used to do commercial translations/interpreting I stuck to one language throughout. That is the right and only way. All else is pretension.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> and Gannex mac!
> 
> But the music of the language is not much use if you don't pronounce the words correctly.


Not totally true, Baldy, because like much else in language learning, pronunciation is a 'grey' area. Not many native English speakers have RP...Received Pronunciation...or even 'good 'pronunciation. We tend, through habit, speed or laziness to elide wherever possible so a fairly long sentence can end up sounding like one long word!
Intonation is what adds meaning to an utterance...how you can discern a question from a statement being the most obvious example.
Of course you need to know the 'value' of each letter or combination of letters but like much else in language it's not the be-all and end-all.

I speak some Czech and Polish but never totally mastered the pronunciation.
But then I defy any non-native speaker to master the pronunciation of such words as 'przetrwac' or 'strzal', let alone 'grzyb'...the last means 'mushroom', by the way, a much-used word in Czech and Polish.
I didn't eat many mushrooms when I lived in Prague and Poland.....


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Well im stuffed cause im hopeless at languages and im afraid you have really opened my eyes i have dvds, books , language courses and im still struggling but i must admit a get through
And as theres two different languages ive dont ask me how managed to mix them both 
So i do admire you all for your linguistic skills most amazing 
I find the roumanians and chinese seem to pick it up very quickly 
Me i must be a idiot because i really found it hard


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes I've found here that the Rumanians are nearly on par with the Dutch at languages .The Chinese aren'tfar behind but whereas the Dutch & Rumanians will learn multiple languages the Chinese tend not to.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> When I hear an English person referring to Paris as 'Paree', Naples as 'Napoli' or Vienna as 'Wien'...or even Prague as 'Praha'....I scent pretension, I'm afraid. That kind of language-hopping says a lot about a person.
> 
> When I used to do commercial translations/interpreting I stuck to one language throughout. That is the right and only way. All else is pretension.


Pretension or in some cases not being that linguistically aware or even unknowingly ignorant. Most of the people I know who insist on Spanishising names in English are actually less able to speak Spanish.

Anyway - I agree. For me it's an Expat Commandment 'Thou shalt never give the Spanish name for a city or pronounce it that way where there is a known English equivalent.'


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Well I am out and out pretentious by your definitions then 'cos I normally use the Spanish if I'm here in Spain, which I usually am. I'd only use the English name, or English pronunciation if I was speaking to an English speaker with poor Spanish.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well I am out and out pretentious by your definitions then 'cos I normally use the Spanish if I'm here in Spain, which I usually am. I'd only use the English name, or English pronunciation if I was speaking to an English speaker with poor Spanish.


me too


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> me too


I thought you were keeping quiet!


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

I'll let you off. Just this once...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> me too


ditto - but that's yet another language!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> me too


I guess it depends on what's most familiar to you. I have no problem saying Barcelona as it's pronounced in English (maybe thanks to Freddy Mercury  ) but most Spanish places I had only ever spoken about in Spanish, such as at school when I studied the provinces. It is totally beyond me to say other places with an English accent like Mallorca, Ibiza, Valencia. Before Ryanair started flying to Santiago, a lot of people I knew flew into Valladolid... but the first time someone asked me if I had been to *Va*-la-*do*-lid, I genuinely didn't understand what they were saying. 
I have the same problem with gallego, though. I mostly speak Spanish as nearly all my friends are Spanish speaking, I can speak gallego and do to some people, but when speaking Spanish I am incapable of saying Ourense or A Coruña. In fact, one of my students who works in Ribadavia correct my spelling the other day as I had written Orense! But when my exhusband received his new posting in Galicia while we were living in Burgos we spent hours, trying in vain, to find Mujía on a map. In the end, he rang the headquarters in La Coruña only to be asked...Did you mean Muxía?  And when on Spanish tv, if they say Sanjenjo instead of Sanxenxo, it simply sounds ridiculous.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> I guess it depends on what's most familiar to you. I have no problem saying Barcelona as it's pronounced in English (maybe thanks to Freddy Mercury  ) but most Spanish places I had only ever spoken about in Spanish, such as at school when I studied the provinces. It is totally beyond me to say other places with an English accent like Mallorca, Ibiza, Valencia. Before Ryanair started flying to Santiago, a lot of people I knew flew into Valladolid... but the first time someone asked me if I had been to *Va*-la-*do*-lid, I genuinely didn't understand what they were saying.
> I have the same problem with gallego, though. I mostly speak Spanish as nearly all my friends are Spanish speaking, I can speak gallego and do to some people, but when speaking Spanish I am incapable of saying Ourense or A Coruña. In fact, one of my students who works in Ribadavia correct my spelling the other day as I had written Orense! But when my exhusband received his new posting in Galicia while we were living in Burgos we spent hours, trying in vain, to find Mujía on a map. In the end, he rang the headquarters in La Coruña only to be asked...Did you mean Muxía?  And when on Spanish tv, if they say Sanjenjo instead of Sanxenxo, it simply sounds ridiculous.


But like PW and maybe Xavia, you are a fluent, probably bilingual speaker of Spanish and don't come into the same category as most of us!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well I am out and out pretentious by your definitions then 'cos I normally use the Spanish if I'm here in Spain, which I usually am. I'd only use the English name, or English pronunciation if I was speaking to an English speaker with poor Spanish.


That's different. You've probavly gone 100% native anyway.
I was thinking of the kind of people who as Sam says are ignorant and may not even have visited the plaaces they love to give native names to.

You use Spanish names when speaking Spanish and Anglicised when speaking English which is imo the right way to go about it.
No way pretentious, the opposite in fact.
Same applies to Xavia. 
It's the sort of English people who when conversing with other English people in English start referring to 'Firenze' or 'Wien' that irritate me.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> But like PW and maybe Xavia, you are a fluent, probably bilingual speaker of Spanish and don't come into the same category as most of us!


Or maybe she's just pretentious!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I guess it depends on what's most familiar to you.


I think familiarity has a lot to do with it, and also which name you learned/ used first. I, for example never learned "Seville", Sevilla has always been Sevilla


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Or maybe she's just pretentious!!


See above post for explanation of what I meant!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think familiarity has a lot to do with it, and also which name you learned/ used first. I, for example never learned "Seville", Sevilla has always been Sevilla


my thoughts exactly

I had never thought much about Spanish cities etc before we came here, so the Spanish pronunciation comes more naturally to me

I guess in the same way that I struggle with Londres & Nueva York...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

OK, I admit it can sound pretentious, and especially if you are in England talking about a place in Italy and no one in the room including you speaks Italian and you talk about Roma


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

In my family we have three way conversations, too. When my boys were born, I spoke to them exclusively in English and they had a lot of contact with my mum and step-father. While their dad was away for almost a year when they were two and three, they spoke English to me naturally. However, when we moved to Burgos and they started school, at first they wouldn't speak English in the street to me, then they started to speak Spanish at home and in the end we ended up speaking Spanish. They both speak English perfectly to other people, just not to me! When we were with my mum, before she passed away, my children and I spoke to my mum in English and in Spanish to each other. When we are with other people, we really make an effort to speak in English to each other, but it's uncomfortable and unnatural. Their dad has just started to study English at the EOI and he comes along to the intercambio, he loves to practise speaking English to anyone, except to me! But he also says that although in the course of his work he has to speak Gallego, his natural language is Spanish so if he is on duty with one of his brothers or nephews, they speak Spanish to each other and Gallego to the public!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Or maybe she's just pretentious!!


Glad you (anles) took this as a joke. You just never know on the forum when someone will take offence!


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> You use Spanish names when speaking Spanish and Anglicised when speaking English which is imo the right way to go about it.
> It's the sort of English people who when conversing with other English people in English start referring to 'Firenze' or 'Wien' that irritate me.


mrypg9 - we're in the minority here clearly so let's grab our coats... 

So for those who don't use 'Seville' - are some of you really saying you'd never associated 'The Barber of Seville' or 'Seville Orange Marmalade' with the largest city in the south of Spain or heard of them???


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> mrypg9 - we're in the minority here clearly so let's grab our coats...
> 
> So for those who don't use 'Seville' - are some of you really saying you'd never associated 'The Barber of Seville' or 'Seville Orange Marmalade' with the largest city in the south of Spain or heard of them???


can't stand marmalade nor opera......

tbh I rarely say the name of a Spanish city when speaking English

if I say the name of my town I say it the way I say it in Spanish - I have very sadly heard it referred to as Java though 

I wouldn't use the Valenciano name/pronunciation unless I was speaking Valenciano - which I'm fighting against....

I would NEVER be able to bring myself to say Majawka instead of Mallorca, nor Eyebeefa in place of Ibiza....


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Glad you (anles) took this as a joke. You just never know on the forum when someone will take offence!


I don't take offense easily and this remark was just the kind of joke I like. It's the kind of remark I make to my English friends and they make to me, but I find much more difficult with Spanish people. I do have a few very close friends who do share this kind of humour, but with the majority I have to bite my tongue or I hurt their feelings. One of my friends calls me _cañera_ no matter how much I insist I have been very mild in my replies due to his susceptibility. And even if you had said it in all seriousness, I would still have found it funny.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

See you had heard of it and I didn't even mention opera! 

I certainly wouldn't want you saying Majorka - on English it's written Majorca and pronounced Mayorka....

Me thinks you're teasing me...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> See you had heard of it and I didn't even mention opera!
> 
> I certainly wouldn't want you saying Majorka - on English it's written Majorca and pronounced Mayorka....
> *
> Me thinks you're teasing me*...


only slightly 


I have of course heard of both the marmalade & the opera, but I'm not in the habit of talking about them - in any language tbh 

I have genuinely heard Majawka though


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> only slightly
> 
> I have of course heard of both the marmalade & the opera, but I'm not in the habit of talking about them - in any language tbh
> 
> I have genuinely heard Majawka though




I've heard that before too - Benalmadena is the one lots of people get wrong in both languages... I keep hearing BenalmadEENA rather than BenalMADena.... I've seen too many trashy Channel 4 holiday documentaries.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think familiarity has a lot to do with it, and also which name you learned/ used first. I, for example never learned "Seville", Sevilla has always been Sevilla


I think it is more a case of "when in Rome". If I were in the UK I would say Seville but in Spain I call it by its Spanish name and have never done otherwise.

I suppose as far as Spanish is concerned when, I first brought my Colombian wife (a.k.a. SWMBO) to England, I was determined that people weren't going to do the usual English lazy trick of anglicising her name 'Alejandra' which normally throws people if they try to use English pronunciation and to be fair most of our friends and relations do pronounce it pretty much correctly and it sometimes irritates/annoys me that she will pander to the average Brit's reluctance with foreiign languages and pronunciation by telling them to call her 'Alex'. It was bad enough in UK but to do it here?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

samthemainman said:


> mrypg9 - we're in the minority here clearly so let's grab our coats...
> 
> So for those who don't use 'Seville' - are some of you really saying you'd never associated 'The Barber of Seville' or 'Seville Orange Marmalade' with the largest city in the south of Spain or heard of them???


Yes of course we had, but that was in the English-speaking world.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

samthemainman said:


> So for those who don't use 'Seville' - are some of you really saying you'd never associated 'The Barber of Seville' or 'Seville Orange Marmalade' with the largest city in the south of Spain or heard of them???


Well, those are proper names and as such should be pronounced in English according to English pronunciation rules.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

I give up...!  

The English I speak in Spain to Native English speakers is the same English as I speak in the UK. I correctly use English names wherever I happen to be speaking English, and Castillian names wherever I am speaking Spanish...

It's not really about the pronunciation though that is important - first of all we need to get the language and spelling right.

Over and out!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> mrypg9 - we're in the minority here clearly so let's grab our coats...
> 
> So for those who don't use 'Seville' - are some of you really saying you'd never associated 'The Barber of Seville' or 'Seville Orange Marmalade' with the largest city in the south of Spain or heard of them???


I'm with xabia on this. I'm not saying it's "right" and I'm not saying it's pretentious - it's just what I do without analysing it too much!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Well, those are proper names and as such should be pronounced in English according to English pronunciation rules.


Sometimes I live on the edge and don't follow the rules!


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

You lot are a nightmare....:boxing:

For those interested here is a list of some of the places in Spain which have an official 'English' name... called 'exonyms'....

Andalucía : Andalusia
Aragón : Aragon in historical context, also Aragón referring to modern Spain
País Vasco : Basque Country
Cádiz : Cadiz 
Castilla : Castile
Catalunya / Cataluña : Catalonia
Córdoba : Cordova
A Coruña/La Coruña : Corunna
Duero : river Douro, English uses the Portuguese name
Islas Baleares : Balearic Islands
Islas Canarias : Canary Islands
Mallorca : Majorca
Menorca : Minorca English uses the Italian spelling, also Menorca
Navarra : Navarre
Pireneos : Pyrenees
Sevilla : Seville
Tajo : Tagus
Vizcaya : Biscay
Zaragoza : Saragossa (old), Zaragoza (increasingly used in English)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

samthemainman said:


> You lot are a nightmare....:boxing:
> 
> For those interested here is a list of some of the places in Spain which have an official 'English' name... called 'exonyms'....
> 
> ...


Interesting.
I wonder what is your opinion about the related idea of the Spanish habit of Spanishising English names like Carlos Dickens, Isabel II and Lady Di (pronounced Dee)?


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## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sometimes I live on the edge and don't follow the rules!


This thread has taken off since I left Germany this afternoon and I'm now trying to catch up!

Spanish was my first language but I quickly absorbed English too. As a child, I would speak to my parents in a mixture of both languages. Sometimes when speaking with my mother, we'll start a sentence in one language and finish in the other! My mother insists to this day that I would answer the phone, aged 18 months, and translate the conversation for her (she spoke no English at all then)...I'm not quite sure it's true!

As far as place names are concerned, I make up my own rules as I go along. Sometimes I'll say Seville and sometimes Sevilla etc etc. It probably depends who I'm talking to! 

On the subject of changing names to Spanish equivalents, one of my Spanish cousins can"t say my partner's name, Johannes, so _she_ calls him Juan 

If I'm ever mistakenly brought an English version of the menu in a restaurant in Spain, I'll ask for the Spanish one. "Albondigas en salsa de tomate" sounds far tastier than "meatballs in tomato sauce" somehow!


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## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting.
> I wonder what is your opinion about the related idea of the Spanish habit of Spanishising English names like Carlos Dickens, Isabel II and Lady Di (pronounced Dee)?


And poor old Cristoforo Colombo/Cristóbal Colón/Christopher Columbus/Cristóvão Colombo!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Navas said:


> And poor old Cristoforo Colombo/Cristóbal Colón/Christopher Columbus/Cristóvão Colombo!


& not forgetting Miguel Ángel












he of Sistine Chapel fame.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

My comment was intended solely for English speakers when using these names with other English speakers. 
Many people here will drift between languages, I guess. But when I'm speaking English I use Anglicised names, when chuntering away in Spanish, Spanish names.
Simple as that.
It doesn't matter much anyway....


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> My comment was intended solely for English speakers when using these names with other English speakers.
> Many people here will drift between languages, I guess. But when I'm speaking English I use Anglicised names, when chuntering away in Spanish, Spanish names.
> Simple as that.
> It doesn't matter much anyway....


It's not that simple though - speaking in English with English people how would you pronounce Jerez and Marbella?

Also - it surprises me that some here (I would consider them experts) insist that pronunciation is so important when the Spanish pronounce things differently depending upon where they come from. 

For instance the 'll' around here is very often pronounced 'dg' so 'Mar BAY dga' and indeed 'Madg OR ca' (maybe that's where the Engish spelling comes from?. My first Spanish teacher many years ago would say 'CAdg ay' for street.


Nothing's simple and straightforward.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

jimenato said:


> It's not that simple though - speaking in English with English people how would you pronounce Jerez and Marbella?
> 
> Also - it surprises me that some here (I would consider them experts) insist that pronunciation is so important when the Spanish pronounce things differently depending upon where they come from.
> 
> ...


OK - answers...

In English with English people, because these towns have no separate English exonym (like Seville or the Basque Country) or pronunciation (e.g. Cadiz or Valencia) - they should take the standard Spanish pronunciation. Hereth (or Herez) and Marbaya. Where there IS an official English equivalent instead, that should ideally be used. If you don't know that there is an English equivalent, just use the Spanish - or read up... 

It is a personal choice - if you want to insist on saying 'Sebeeya' and 'Balentheeya' or 'Barthelona' when you are speaking English - go for it. But it's not correct!

Good language teaching should steer people away from imitating regionalisms which are not standard - the research shows it can be highly irritating for native speakers when non-natives come along and start dropping consonants and pronouncing the 'll' like an Argentinian would. One of my best teachers - who was an Argentine - always pronounced her 'c's (before i's and e's) with a 'th' and her 'll' with a 'y'. 

I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge and respect these different pronunciations - but my advice would be that as a non-native - the point (for me anyway) is to make myself understandable to as many folk as possible. If I'm barely fluent but throw in random ticks or other regional pronunciations - it can sound a bit silly. If someone from Poland came up to me in the UK with a half Polish, half scouse accent and pronounced c's and k's in stereotypical scouse fashion - I would find it funny at first, but then....

Generally speaking it is recognised that the 'best' forms of Spanish to learn from a pronunciation point of view (because they are clear and stay true to the original written language) are the Spanish spoken in Central Spain (the Castillian part) and the Latin American standard - which is at its clearest in both Mexico and Columbia. Don't worry I'm not in the Radio 4 Home Counties RP English brigade - I'm from the West Midlands and talk with Northern vowels - but as soon as hear a foreigner trying to impersonate a Black Country or Brummie accent or say 'buzz' for 'bus'... I have to step in ... 

If none of the above matters to you - and 'fitting in' or getting by without learning the grammar is more important or practical for you than trying to master the language - then ignore the above, it really doesn't matter. But - you'll never sound exactly like a local anyway (not without 20-30 years of intensive work!).

As a linguist (I did a tedious dissertation on 'the best form of German to learn as a non-native speaker' as a part of my German/Italian degree) I advise people to follow a 'standard'. It has a more universal reach, will serve you better around the world and will at least make your speaking more cohesive. Otherwise you can end up speaking with all sorts of different influences which at best is endearing but at worst is confusing/irritating.

Ultimately though - all of this has negligible significance if you're still on page 10 of España Viva. Obtaining some sort of fluency has to be the prime goal. I guess I'm just pernickety.:tongue1:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

samthemainman said:


> OK - answers...
> which is at its clearest in both Mexico and Columbia.


Col*o*mbia  Where you will also get '_ly_' sound for ll


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

Each to their own, In Alicante I say Alicant, in the UK I say Alicante, in Spain I say Gales, in Wales I say Wales... not Cymru. However I also say Sevilla and never Seville, and Myanmar not Burma (got to admit that's more because I play games like Battlefield  )... Tbh I just try to say it the way you do with which ever language your speaking as it roles off the tongue easier IMO

Anyway, I thought I would chip in, however irrelevant I am


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

and even more irrelevant is my latest "mistake". It seems theres a very small, subtle difference between the word for a drinking straw and the word for a w*** in Spanish! I know, I asked for one in my bottle of cola light the other night - much to the amusement of the waiter! I always seem to get these things wrong - I had an incident when we first moved to Spain, asking for an icecream in a "cone" ............ well thats what I meant to say lol! 

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> I had an incident when we first moved to Spain, asking for an icecream in a "cone" ............ well thats what I meant to say lol!
> 
> Jo xxx


I'd have gone for that!!!!

One can easily get confused with the different genders such as going into a pharmacy and asking for "un cura" rather than "una cura" and also saying one has "un dolor en el ****" when one means "un dolor en el cuello" the difference? only about 60 cm !


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

jojo said:


> and even more irrelevant is my latest "mistake". It seems theres a very small, subtle difference between the word for a drinking straw and the word for a w*** in Spanish! I know, I asked for one in my bottle of cola light the other night - much to the amusement of the waiter! I always seem to get these things wrong - I had an incident when we first moved to Spain, asking for an icecream in a "cone" ............ well thats what I meant to say lol!
> 
> Jo xxx


Learning Spanish would be boring if we never made funny little mistakes like this :spit:

My girlfriend has often told people at work that she is pregnant.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

RichTUK said:


> Learning Spanish would be boring if we never made funny little mistakes like this :spit:
> 
> My girlfriend has often told people at work that she is pregnant.


lol, My son stood up infront of his new class when we first moved to Spain and announced that he had 13 @rseholes lol!!! He was mortified and had that nickname for many weeks afterwards

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> lol, My son stood up infront of his new class when we first moved to Spain and announced that he had 13 @rseholes lol!!! He was mortified and had that nickname for many weeks afterwards
> 
> Jo xxx


I remember my daughter and her friends going through a phase when she was little of asking "old" people how many "anos" they had and then literally rolling round the floor at the answers - 37/ 42/ 81!!ound::faint:
It's one of those things little Spanish kids do.
At 13 however, it's difficult to live it down...:tongue1:


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

jojo said:


> lol, My son stood up infront of his new class when we first moved to Spain and announced that he had 13 @rseholes lol!!! He was mortified and had that nickname for many weeks afterwards
> 
> Jo xxx


That's just unlucky


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Back in 2005 I walked into Dandy Moto in Murcia and asked "Are my bollocks in that box?"


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

XTreme said:


> Back in 2005 I walked into Dandy Moto in Murcia and asked "Are my bollocks in that box?"


Did you find them in the end?? :clap2:


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Colombia  Where you will also get 'ly' sound for ll


Well spotted on the typo - even I get it wrong!! 

The 'ly' is also considered a joint standard in mainland Spain too... Not the South American soft 'j' pronunciation though.... 

I'm actually going to try the Catherine Tate school of Spanish, where she just goes around saying 'th th th th th'.... Hilarious.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

jimenato said:


> It's not that simple though - speaking in English with English people how would you pronounce Jerez and Marbella?


Well the general rule I've always followed is, if it's word spoken in English, it's an English word and follows English pronunciation rules. If it's a word spoken in Spanish, then it's a Spanish word and follows Spanish pronunciation rules. 

Exonyms, which are basically just English translations of non English words, usually place names as Samthemainman rightly points out would follow English pronunciation rules.

Following that logic, Jerez and Marbella if used in spoken English should be pronounced following English pronunciation rules. You could argue however (fairly convincingly I would have thought) that given common and popular usage, that Hereth and Marbaya were unofficial exonyms. 

It's important to remember I think that language is living and evolving and just because some bureaucrat hasn't sat down and updated the list of common English-Spanish exonyms that others can't enter the language through common usage.

So, forget _correctness_ and do what you think is right!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

RichTUK said:


> Did you find them in the end?? :clap2:


Course I did Rich.....I just asked the young chica to give me a hand!


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## RichTUK (Oct 15, 2012)

XTreme said:


> Course I did Rich.....I just asked the young chica to give me a hand!


 she would have only been 16, you bad man... tut tut


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

Wonderful thread. First of all, would you please stop referring to South America unless you are purposefully excluding Mexico. I consider myself average in language abilities (or maybe even below average), so if I can learn Spanish almost anyone can. I think Spanish is a challegening language for an English speaker. The corner cases of a language are always hard, the kind of scenarios where even a native speaker will slow down and become unsure. That exists in English too, just try taking the Cambridge Advanced English placement test!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bobería said:


> The corner cases of a language are always hard, the kind of scenarios where even a native speaker will slow down and become unsure. That exists in English too, just try taking the Cambridge Advanced English placement test!


I'm looking at past papers of CAE right now. What a nightmare to teach...


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I came to Spain with a smattering of Spanish but fluency in French, reasonable communication ability in Italian and a foundation of school Latin. .


I am envious. You must have learned Spanish pretty quickly?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Catchy signature, boberia, what does it mean?


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

It's an idiomatic expression "I like to put on airs of intelligence..." It uses the indefinite feminine, the direct object 'las' actually doesn't refer to anything. The Spanish rough equivalent to the infamous 'it' in English.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bobería said:


> It's an idiomatic expression "I like to put on airs of intelligence..." It uses the indefinite feminine, the direct object 'las' actually doesn't refer to anything. The Spanish rough equivalent to the infamous 'it' in English.


you _do_ realise that sonrisa is Spanish


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> you _do_ realise that sonrisa is Spanish


I once took coals to Newcastle whilst teaching my grandmother to suck eggs...

I have recently taken several past CAE papers to see how tough they are for someone like me who is pretty good in my own language and yes they are tough. I passed them all which gave me some confidence in my abilities to teach English but to other teachers of English, take the exams your students hope to pass and you will know what they are up against....


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

bobería said:


> Wonderful thread. First of all, would you please stop referring to South America unless you are purposefully excluding Mexico.


I hope you're not referring to me... I specified Mexican and Colombian as Latin American (not South American) standards of Spanish - and the 'j' pronouncation of the 'll' sound as South American - its not found in Mexico, Cuba or the northern part of Spanish-speaking South America... but mainly further down...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bobería;1059787 said:


> I am envious. You must have learned Spanish pretty quickly?


Well, as I've said, I speak Spanish fluently and ungrammatically. Every day I try to pick up a new word or phrase. If I don't know a Spanish word or phrase, I'll ask. I have zero inhibitions when it comes to language.
Just recently I've had to have several medical appointments, tests, XRays...so I looked up and learned the words I thought I'd need...but doesn't everyone do that?

Years ago at school I learned Latin and Ancient Greek, most of which I have forgotten. But then there's not a lot of call these days for phrases such as 'Will the altar tremble when the maidens dance around it?' or 'The wise goddess is angry with the wicked sailors'...well, perhaps the latter.

What I found useful in language study was that within language families there are certain rules...true of German, English and Dutch and also true of Romance languages.

One example is that 'pl' in French - plein, pleut - becomes 'll'in Spanish...lleno, lluvia.
Then there are the French 'ites' -sorry, no accents on my keyboard - and the Spanish 'dades'.

Sometimes, whe searching for a word in Spanish I'll take a chance on using an English word with a Latin origin... It often works.

But as I see it, all this is of interest only. Language is living, constantly evolving and there is no real 'right' or 'wrong'....which divine authority was given the franchise to set up and police language, we may well ask, although in some countries such as France such a body does exist and is cheerfully ignored. There is no such thing as 'bad' language, only 'inappropriate' language. We choose our words according to the exigencies of the situation.

My favourite story about the Academie Francaise concerns the Academician who referred to another unpopular Academy member as 'un con', only to be told by a friend that 'it could not be the case as he had neither the depth nor the capacity to please'.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

Well Spain does have the RAE which spaniards seem to enjoy poking fun at. I thought you also listed Italian? One enjoyable and somewhat humbling experience was learning a bit of Portugues and finding that all the sancrosanct rules in Spanish were now turned on their heads.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> you _do_ realise that sonrisa is Spanish


Ha Ha very funny. No, I was just answering the question. Should I delete my response?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

samthemainman said:


> I hope you're not referring to me... I specified Mexican and Colombian as Latin American (not South American) standards of Spanish - and the 'j' pronouncation of the 'll' sound as South American - its not found in Mexico, Cuba or the northern part of Spanish-speaking South America... but mainly further down...


So many people do tend to misplace Mexico but then geography is not taught very well nowadays as a survey by Newsweek threw up - the majority of Americans scored on average 21% when naming capitals of countries, Brits did a little better at 43% but top were Swedes with 67%. Whicch is why, I suppose, they have to refer to London, England and Paris, France, etc.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> So many people do tend to misplace Mexico but then geography is not taught very well nowadays as a survey by Newsweek threw up - the majority of Americans scored on average 21% when naming capitals of countries, Brits did a little better at 43% but top were Swedes with 67%. Whicch is why, I suppose, they have to refer to London, England and Paris, France, etc.


In my experience, geography is not taught at all as a discrete subject in most schools.. It is usually lumped together with history and known as 'Humanities' or some such tosh.
Students are taught 'skills' rather than bodies of knowledge and whilst skills are essntial and often neglected in the past, skills are not much use without some knowledge content on which to base them.
Things may have changed in the past decade....in education, change is a built-in constant.
I remember an 'old hand' once saying to m that if you stood still and stuck to your preferred teaching method and didn't change what you did the circle would come round to you in time and what you were doing, once decried as 'old-fashioned,' would once again be the latest fad in teaching .
Once, when our on way by coach to view a Roman villa in the UK we passed a sign saying 'Luton Airport' and a thirteen-year-old student confidently announced: 'Spain's over there'.
Another student told me he had been to the Domenican Republic for a holiday. When I asked him to show me its location on the map he said he didn't know as he had flown there.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings.......


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Another student told me he had been to the Domenican Republic for a holiday. When I asked him to show me its location on the map he said he didn't know as he had flown there.


Obviously watched the crap movie instead of having the map on the screen! 

I love those maps!!


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> So many people do tend to misplace Mexico but then geography is not taught very well nowadays as a survey by Newsweek threw up - the majority of Americans scored on average 21% when naming capitals of countries


That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. 

Your average American thinks the whole world starts and ends on the West and East coast of America. The rest of the world is just a minor inconvenience to them, that is if they even know where a place actually exists.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

I do vaguely remember that news story and felt a bit of embarrassment with the percentage of ignorant americans. I do also remember (I think this is correct) that the college entrance exams SAT lowered its difficulty level to keep the scores level with past examinations.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> That doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
> 
> Your average American thinks the whole world starts and ends on the West and East coast of America. The rest of the world is just a minor inconvenience to them, that is if they even know where a place actually exists.


I think this could be said of many peoples, although I have to agree with you about americans.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

bobería said:


> I think this could be said of many peoples, although I have to agree with you about americans.


LOL

I was writing a piece about our move yesterday and it was about Languages.

I came across this Quote, which made me laugh

_



“Americans who travel abroad for the first time are often shocked to discover that, despite all the progress that has been made in the last 30 years, many foreign people still speak in foreign languages.”

‒Dave Barry

Click to expand...

_


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

bobería said:


> Ha Ha very funny. No, I was just answering the question. Should I delete my response?


Lol... No, dont, your response actually illustrates very well the meaning of your signature.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2013)

Sonrisa, I thank you for your comments. When I can make a highly idiomatic comment and have it responded to with emotion, not with correction, I know I have reached very near my goals in the language. (although there is always more work to do)


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