# Spousal Visa and Work Permit



## CCSA

I am English and married to a South African. I have a temporary visa with the title 'Relatives Permit' and under conditions it states to 'accompany husband'. Is this a Relatives Permit like the title suggests (i.e. it can't be endorsed with a work permit if I find a job) or is it a Spousal Permit which is what I asked for when I originally applied for the visa? If it is infact a Relatives Permit, how do I ensure that I'm issued with a Spousal Permit next time as I'm in the process of renewing my visa?

Also, once you receive a job offer and apply for a work permit, how long is it taking Home Affairs to process these? I have a friend who has been waiting since July now and no sign of it. Are you allowed to commence work whilst waiting for Home Affairs to process the work permit? The acknowledgement of Receipt issued by Home Affairs when you apply for a work permit states that you are not allowed to commence work whilst waiting for the outcome of your application, however my friend has been verbally told by numerous people at Home Affairs that he can start work whilst waiting for his work permit. If you can't start work, then surely this effectively prohibits me from working as I can't imagine many employers will offer me a job knowing that my start date lies in the hands of Home Affairs?!

Finally, I have been waiting for a renewal of my temporary visa since July despite Home Affairs claiming these only take 30 days. My existing visa is now due to expire in a couple of weeks. When I raised this with Home Affairs I was told that it wasn't a problem as I'm in the country, but that I won't be allowed to leave SA on an expired visa - yes that's leave SA not re-enter. Does anyone know if this is true? I don't like the thought of not being able to go back to England at any point should the need arise.

Any advice would be appreciated!


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## martinaloeb

Hi,

I don't know the answer to all of your questions, but I do know that you can leave with an expired visa. You should be fined when you leave on an expired visa, but they certainly won't stop you leaving.

Good luck with the rest. Home Affairs are the frustration of so many people


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## Saartjie

CCSA said:


> I am English and married to a South African. I have a temporary visa with the title 'Relatives Permit' and under conditions it states to 'accompany husband'. Is this a Relatives Permit like the title suggests (i.e. it can't be endorsed with a work permit if I find a job) or is it a Spousal Permit which is what I asked for when I originally applied for the visa? If it is infact a Relatives Permit, how do I ensure that I'm issued with a Spousal Permit next time as I'm in the process of renewing my visa?
> 
> Also, once you receive a job offer and apply for a work permit, how long is it taking Home Affairs to process these? I have a friend who has been waiting since July now and no sign of it. Are you allowed to commence work whilst waiting for Home Affairs to process the work permit? The acknowledgement of Receipt issued by Home Affairs when you apply for a work permit states that you are not allowed to commence work whilst waiting for the outcome of your application, however my friend has been verbally told by numerous people at Home Affairs that he can start work whilst waiting for his work permit. If you can't start work, then surely this effectively prohibits me from working as I can't imagine many employers will offer me a job knowing that my start date lies in the hands of Home Affairs?!
> 
> Finally, I have been waiting for a renewal of my temporary visa since July despite Home Affairs claiming these only take 30 days. My existing visa is now due to expire in a couple of weeks. When I raised this with Home Affairs I was told that it wasn't a problem as I'm in the country, but that I won't be allowed to leave SA on an expired visa - yes that's leave SA not re-enter. Does anyone know if this is true? I don't like the thought of not being able to go back to England at any point should the need arise.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated!


Hi there. If your visa states Relatives permit then it is just that. I also asked for a Spousal permit but received a Relatives permit. What you need to do is make a new application for a Spousal permit, it is called a section 11(6) permit. However as I understand that you are intending to work, my advise would be to get a job first then apply for the spousal permit with a work endorsement at the same time. It should in theory save you some time and hassle.

I applied for my work endorsement on the 31st May, in August I was informed that my application had been lost. I had to reapply on the 24th August and I am still waiting for my endorsement. There is absolutely no way to tell how long it is going to take. You are not allowed to work whilst waiting for the endorsement. The receipt you will get when you apply will clearly state that it is illegal for you to do so. Still, as it takes as long as it does, some people work anyway (I am working). There is not much one can do about the ridiculousness of this situation. As you said, what company is going to keep a position open for several months whilst you are waiting for the endorsement. I have taken legal advise on this as I was getting very frustrated but the lawyer told me that there is nothing that one can do but apply and wait. 


Finally, in relation to an expired visa. My original visa expired whilst I was waiting for a new one. I had to get a lawyer involved who sorted out a document from Home Affairs which stated that I was technically illegal but as I was waiting for my visa I was allowed to remain in SA. Until my new visa was issued I had to carry this document at all times and I was not allowed to leave the country (in fact I was not allowed to leave the Free State which was the province where I was residing at the time and where I had made my application). As soon as my new visa was issued then all restrictions were lifted.

Not sure if I have answered your questions but I hope it helps.


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## CCSA

martinaloeb said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't know the answer to all of your questions, but I do know that you can leave with an expired visa. You should be fined when you leave on an expired visa, but they certainly won't stop you leaving.
> 
> Good luck with the rest. Home Affairs are the frustration of so many people


Thank you! How ironic that they will fine me for their inefficiency. Problem is I also need to be able to get back into SA as this is where my home, husband and baby is. Like you say, the frustration of Home Affairs!


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## CCSA

Saartjie said:


> Hi there. If your visa states Relatives permit then it is just that. I also asked for a Spousal permit but received a Relatives permit. What you need to do is make a new application for a Spousal permit, it is called a section 11(6) permit. However as I understand that you are intending to work, my advise would be to get a job first then apply for the spousal permit with a work endorsement at the same time. It should in theory save you some time and hassle.
> 
> I applied for my work endorsement on the 31st May, in August I was informed that my application had been lost. I had to reapply on the 24th August and I am still waiting for my endorsement. There is absolutely no way to tell how long it is going to take. You are not allowed to work whilst waiting for the endorsement. The receipt you will get when you apply will clearly state that it is illegal for you to do so. Still, as it takes as long as it does, some people work anyway (I am working). There is not much one can do about the ridiculousness of this situation. As you said, what company is going to keep a position open for several months whilst you are waiting for the endorsement. I have taken legal advise on this as I was getting very frustrated but the lawyer told me that there is nothing that one can do but apply and wait.
> 
> 
> Finally, in relation to an expired visa. My original visa expired whilst I was waiting for a new one. I had to get a lawyer involved who sorted out a document from Home Affairs which stated that I was technically illegal but as I was waiting for my visa I was allowed to remain in SA. Until my new visa was issued I had to carry this document at all times and I was not allowed to leave the country (in fact I was not allowed to leave the Free State which was the province where I was residing at the time and where I had made my application). As soon as my new visa was issued then all restrictions were lifted.
> 
> Not sure if I have answered your questions but I hope it helps.


Thank you so much and yes you have answered all my questions! I am very concerned about my visa which is about to expire now, particularly as I have heard horror stories about people in exactly the same position as myself being put into prison here. I've contacted our local DA councillor who has referred my case to an MP. I've also lodged a complaint with President Zuma's Helpdesk and received a phone call from HA today as a result. 

The Work Permit issue is also a big problem. I just can't see many employers being prepared to let me start without a work permit as surely they are breaking the law too!


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## Saartjie

CCSA said:


> Thank you so much and yes you have answered all my questions! I am very concerned about my visa which is about to expire now, particularly as I have heard horror stories about people in exactly the same position as myself being put into prison here. I've contacted our local DA councillor who has referred my case to an MP. I've also lodged a complaint with President Zuma's Helpdesk and received a phone call from HA today as a result.
> 
> The Work Permit issue is also a big problem. I just can't see many employers being prepared to let me start without a work permit as surely they are breaking the law too!


Yes I agree that the work permit thing is an issue. If you would work (like I am doing) you are breaking the law and so is the company. However, Home Affairs are breaking the law as well as they are in breach of the Constitution. You have under Article 10 a rights to dignity and the right to found a family. Under Article 28 your child has the right to parental care and as such if you cannot work and provide food for your child then your rights are breached. Your spouse, as a SA citizen has a right to reside in the country of his birth together with the partner of his choice (whether foreign or SA citizen), by not providing you with a permit to remain here, HA are in breach there as well. The list is endless. 

I have myself given up trying to deal with Home Affairs. It seems that they might have lost my third application for Spousal permit and work endorsement and I just cannot face going down to Germiston to make the same application again. I mean what is the point, they just keep losing my paperwork. Therefore, I have now instructed a lawyer to deal with my application, they have also lodged my Permanent Residency Application at the same time. It will cost me a lot of money but hopefully it will be worth it and they will get a better result than what I have achieved so far.

I am so surprised that you received a call back from HA by lodging a complaint at Zuma's helpdesk. Excellent result for sure. Can you provide me with the contact details for the helpdesk? I have a few complaints to lodge.:boxing:


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## CCSA

Saartjie said:


> Yes I agree that the work permit thing is an issue. If you would work (like I am doing) you are breaking the law and so is the company. However, Home Affairs are breaking the law as well as they are in breach of the Constitution. You have under Article 10 a rights to dignity and the right to found a family. Under Article 28 your child has the right to parental care and as such if you cannot work and provide food for your child then your rights are breached. Your spouse, as a SA citizen has a right to reside in the country of his birth together with the partner of his choice (whether foreign or SA citizen), by not providing you with a permit to remain here, HA are in breach there as well. The list is endless.
> 
> I have myself given up trying to deal with Home Affairs. It seems that they might have lost my third application for Spousal permit and work endorsement and I just cannot face going down to Germiston to make the same application again. I mean what is the point, they just keep losing my paperwork. Therefore, I have now instructed a lawyer to deal with my application, they have also lodged my Permanent Residency Application at the same time. It will cost me a lot of money but hopefully it will be worth it and they will get a better result than what I have achieved so far.
> 
> I am so surprised that you received a call back from HA by lodging a complaint at Zuma's helpdesk. Excellent result for sure. Can you provide me with the contact details for the helpdesk? I have a few complaints to lodge.:boxing:


The phone number is 17737. You have to be quite persistent to get through (as they are very busy with complaints!) and once you finally get to speak to someone a certain degree of patience is required! However 2 days after calling this number about my visa someone from HA phoned me. I also called this number earlier on this year after several months of trying to get an unabridged birth certificate for my baby out of HA. Within a week, my 'lost' application was found and the birth certificate ready for collection. I'm sure that half the time when HA say something is 'lost', they mean nobody can be bothered to locate it.

Such excellent points regarding HA breaking the law too! 

I wish we could also employ a lawyer to deal with HA as I cannot even begin to describe my frustration with them, but as it is so difficult for me to work due to the Work Permit issue, we simply can't afford to do so.


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## Saartjie

CCSA said:


> The phone number is 17737. You have to be quite persistent to get through (as they are very busy with complaints!) and once you finally get to speak to someone a certain degree of patience is required! However 2 days after calling this number about my visa someone from HA phoned me. I also called this number earlier on this year after several months of trying to get an unabridged birth certificate for my baby out of HA. Within a week, my 'lost' application was found and the birth certificate ready for collection. I'm sure that half the time when HA say something is 'lost', they mean nobody can be bothered to locate it.
> 
> Such excellent points regarding HA breaking the law too!
> 
> I wish we could also employ a lawyer to deal with HA as I cannot even begin to describe my frustration with them, but as it is so difficult for me to work due to the Work Permit issue, we simply can't afford to do so.


I will definitely give the Zuma people a call. I also had huge problems with my daughters un-abridged birth certificate. They told me that it was a five month wait when I applied. I needed it quicker as we were due to fly home and we needed a passport for my daughter. My solution was to contact the SA embassy in my home country (I am Swedish by birth) and within one week the un-abridged certificate was ready for collection. I agree that the 'lost' excuse is just that they can't be bothered to help.

Yes the lawyer is really expensive (I find it even more annoying since I am a lawyer myself, although UK qualified, so paying for a lawyer is very irritating). I am lucky though that the company that I am 'working' for helps me with the cost, not all of it but some. 

I really hope you get your stuff sorted out. Let me know how you get on.


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## RSA_Newbie

*Attention Saartjie!!!*

Saartjie, I need to contact you urgently as you seem to have some experience with this whole spousal permit/work permit situation here. I am a USA citizen married to a South African and have been looking for work now for the past three months with no success. I'd like to chat in a pm if possible. I sent a friend request to you and added you as a contact. Please reply. Thank you.


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## Saartjie

RSA_Newbie said:


> Saartjie, I need to contact you urgently as you seem to have some experience with this whole spousal permit/work permit situation here. I am a USA citizen married to a South African and have been looking for work now for the past three months with no success. I'd like to chat in a pm if possible. I sent a friend request to you and added you as a contact. Please reply. Thank you.


Hi there, of course we can chat. Happy to help. I can't seem to find your request in my PM box. Please send another message to my PM box and I will respond.


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## RSA_Newbie

Saartije. I haven't posted enough times to be allow to PM people yet so if you could contact me on my email that would be great.


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## concord

Hello!
I got a bit confused after reading some of topics on applying for a spousal or relative's permit so I have some questions which I hope you'll help me to answer.
I'm in SA on a visitor's visa (intended marriage) which expires on the 17th March. After I marry my fiance I'm supposed to apply for a permit to stay here. So the question is: what is the difference between a SPOUSAL and a RELATIVE'S permit?
From the forum I realized that it's better to get a spousal permit but how to apply for it? If you go to the official website of home affairs in the category of "temporary residency permit" you'll find only a relative's permit. There's no spousal permit mentioned at all. The same in the form BI-1738 which we have to fill in for a temporary residency - only relative's permits.
Some people on the forum have mentioned that they'd asked for a spousal permit but in the end got a relative's... How could they even apply for it if there's nothing mentioning it in the form of Home Affairs?
Thank you in advance for any help!


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> Hello!
> I got a bit confused after reading some of topics on applying for a spousal or relative's permit so I have some questions which I hope you'll help me to answer.
> I'm in SA on a visitor's visa (intended marriage) which expires on the 17th March. After I marry my fiance I'm supposed to apply for a permit to stay here. So the question is: what is the difference between a SPOUSAL and a RELATIVE'S permit?
> From the forum I realized that it's better to get a spousal permit but how to apply for it? If you go to the official website of home affairs in the category of "temporary residency permit" you'll find only a relative's permit. There's no spousal permit mentioned at all. The same in the form BI-1738 which we have to fill in for a temporary residency - only relative's permits.
> Some people on the forum have mentioned that they'd asked for a spousal permit but in the end got a relative's... How could they even apply for it if there's nothing mentioning it in the form of Home Affairs?
> Thank you in advance for any help!


Hi there, yes it is all very confusing and no there is really no mention on the form about a spousal visa. 

If you qualify for spousal then you should definitely apply for that one. The BIG difference between a spousal and a relatives permit is that a spousal permit can get a work endorsement whilst a relatives permit cannot. So on the assumption that you intend to work, you must get a spousal visa. The spousal visa is called a section 11(6) visa (it's section 11(6) of the Immigration Act). Clearly state on you application form that it is this particular permit that you require. You should be able to fit it in on the form somewhere. Also make sure when you submit the application at HA that you clearly tell them that it is a Section 11 (6) permit that you require. On the receipt that you will get once you have submitted the application, they should write that it is a Section 11(6) permit that has been applied for. Even though you do all this it does not guarantee that you will end up with a spousal permit (I did and got a relatives permit) but at least you have done everything that you can in order to get the right permit. Hope this helps.


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## concord

Thank you very much, Saartjie!
You see, that's why I said it's so confusing! So there's no special form for a spousal permit... As I understand from your post I still fill in the same BI-1738 form but instead of "relative's permit" I need (somehow) specify that I apply for a SPOUSAL permit (to squeeze it somewhere or cross "relative's permit?") and check the receipt as well. 
Then surely I qualify to apply for a spousal permit because my husband is a South African citizen (so it'll be a spousal permit under a temporary residency conditions).
One more question since you seem to be very knowledgeable in this area (after having some negative expirience with DHA I guess). Is there any Internet link where I can go and print out the extract with that section 11(6) of the Immigration bill in case I'll have to show it to the officials in HA? There's always a chance those people dont know about it if it's not even mentioned on their web site... Honestly I tried to look for it but didnt find so I'll have to try again.


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## 2fargone

concord said:


> Thank you very much, Saartjie!
> You see, that's why I said it's so confusing! So there's no special form for a spousal permit... As I understand from your post I still fill in the same BI-1738 form but instead of "relative's permit" I need (somehow) specify that I apply for a SPOUSAL permit (to squeeze it somewhere or cross "relative's permit?") and check the receipt as well.
> Then surely I qualify to apply for a spousal permit because my husband is a South African citizen (so it'll be a spousal permit under a temporary residency conditions).
> One more question since you seem to be very knowledgeable in this area (after having some negative expirience with DHA I guess). Is there any Internet link where I can go and print out the extract with that section 11(6) of the Immigration bill in case I'll have to show it to the officials in HA? There's always a chance those people dont know about it if it's not even mentioned on their web site... Honestly I tried to look for it but didnt find so I'll have to try again.


South African Life Partner Visa

Like the South African relatives permit the life partner visa, sometime referred to as a South African spouse visa, (though this can be misleading as it also applies to common-law and conjugal partners) requires applicants to have a sponsor in place. The sponsor must be a South African citizen or permanent resident and must be either the spouse or partner of the applicant. Like a relatives permit the life partner visa allows the applicant to live and work in South Africa and may be granted as a temporary or permanent residence permit.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> Thank you very much, Saartjie!
> You see, that's why I said it's so confusing! So there's no special form for a spousal permit... As I understand from your post I still fill in the same BI-1738 form but instead of "relative's permit" I need (somehow) specify that I apply for a SPOUSAL permit (to squeeze it somewhere or cross "relative's permit?") and check the receipt as well.
> Then surely I qualify to apply for a spousal permit because my husband is a South African citizen (so it'll be a spousal permit under a temporary residency conditions).
> One more question since you seem to be very knowledgeable in this area (after having some negative expirience with DHA I guess). Is there any Internet link where I can go and print out the extract with that section 11(6) of the Immigration bill in case I'll have to show it to the officials in HA? There's always a chance those people dont know about it if it's not even mentioned on their web site... Honestly I tried to look for it but didnt find so I'll have to try again.


Try this link Immigration Act, 13 of 2002 (as amended in 2004) | Lawyers for Human Rights, if it does not work try to google: the Immigration Act, 13 of 2002 (as amended in 2004).

When I applied for my second permit to convert my Relatives permit to a Spousal Permit, I was told that a Spousal Permit is a permit in it's own right and not a Life Partner Permit. They might have told me the wrong thing (it's not the first time) but on my application I stated Section 11(6) permit and my receipt states Section 11(6) (Spousal).

You definitely do qualify for a spousal permit being married to an SA citizen. 

Please also bear in mind that it can take a long time to get your permit. I applied for my second one in May 2011 and I am still waiting. I have also submitted my Permanent Residency application and from what I understand (from my lawyers), my PR is more likely to come through first (ridiculous).


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## concord

Poopsie23 said:


> Like a relatives permit the life partner visa allows the applicant to live and work in South Africa


 Poopsie23, I think you're confused as well (we're all confused in this case ) because if you're issued a relative's permit you CAN'T work. That's the reason I try to "find the truth" and get a right permit not the wrong one.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> Poopsie23, I think you're confused as well (we're all confused in this case ) because if you're issued a relative's permit you CAN'T work. That's the reason I try to "find the truth" and get a right permit not the wrong one.


Indeed. Also remember that you cannot work on a Spousal Permit until it has been endorsed for work and you must have a job offer before they will endorse your permit. Confusing is the right word for sure. I sincerely hope that you will sort things out soon. I know it is terribly frustrating.


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## concord

Thank you very, very much, Saartjie!!! It does work. That's what it say: 
(6) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, a visitor’s permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or permanent resident and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22: 

Provided that- 

such permit shall only be valid while the good faith spousal relationship exists; 

on application, the holder of such permit may be authorised to perform any of the activities provided for in the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22; and 

the holder of such permit shall apply for permanent residence contemplated in section 26 (b) within three months from the date upon which he or she qualified to be issued with that permit

Now I'll have to print it out and try to persuade HA officials I'm right!


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> Thank you very, very much, Saartjie!!! It does work. That's what it say:
> (6) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, a visitor’s permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or permanent resident and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22:
> 
> Provided that-
> 
> such permit shall only be valid while the good faith spousal relationship exists;
> 
> on application, the holder of such permit may be authorised to perform any of the activities provided for in the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22; and
> 
> the holder of such permit shall apply for permanent residence contemplated in section 26 (b) within three months from the date upon which he or she qualified to be issued with that permit
> 
> Now I'll have to print it out and try to persuade HA officials I'm right!


Glad it worked. It will always depend upon who you deal with at HA. I have heard of people who have found people willing to help at HA although I have yet to come across one such person What HA office will you apply at?


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## concord

We live in Cape Town so the Department of HA where I can apply is on Barrack str.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> We live in Cape Town so the Department of HA where I can apply is on Barrack str.


Now that is a HUGE plus for you. I made my application for PR at Barrack Street and they were brilliant!!! My previous apps have been made at Germiston HA in Joburg and it has not been good experiences at all. I would recommend Cape Town HA to anyone for sure. I feel much more positive for your application now that I know you are going there:clap2: Fingers crossed for you. Let me know how you get on.


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## ksanna

*Life Partner Visa extention*

Hello. I see that lots of you have been through the process of renewing there Life partner (Spouse) Visa.

I got married to my husband last month and my Visa is running out at the end of Jan. Because it was a lot of stress with the wedding (and then some other issues occured) I will just be able to get to HA this week and hand in my application for the extention of my Visa. I also got a new Job offer, which is fortunate because my husband wants to go back to study and I would like to get back to work.

I have all the Papers filled out, the job offer, our marriage certificate etc. etc. and also a letter of good will (???) saying that I am sorry for running so late with my application. A friend of mine used to work in that field so she helped me. 

I will go to Bellville Office as I heard there is the least people. Can anybody tell me how it will work there? Will they ask a lot of questions? Will I have to pay any fees? Will they refuse the application because it is late. As I said it is basicly due to the wedding and the certificate we got beginning of Jan. Are they nice there? Why am I so afraid ;-)

Thanks for any good advice or just a nice word ...


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## Saartjie

ksanna said:


> Hello. I see that lots of you have been through the process of renewing there Life partner (Spouse) Visa.
> 
> I got married to my husband last month and my Visa is running out at the end of Jan. Because it was a lot of stress with the wedding (and then some other issues occured) I will just be able to get to HA this week and hand in my application for the extention of my Visa. I also got a new Job offer, which is fortunate because my husband wants to go back to study and I would like to get back to work.
> 
> I have all the Papers filled out, the job offer, our marriage certificate etc. etc. and also a letter of good will (???) saying that I am sorry for running so late with my application. A friend of mine used to work in that field so she helped me.
> 
> I will go to Bellville Office as I heard there is the least people. Can anybody tell me how it will work there? Will they ask a lot of questions? Will I have to pay any fees? Will they refuse the application because it is late. As I said it is basicly due to the wedding and the certificate we got beginning of Jan. Are they nice there? Why am I so afraid ;-)
> 
> Thanks for any good advice or just a nice word ...


Hi there, make sure you get to HA before your current visa runs out. Home Affairs are really strict with over stayers, even if you are entitled to a Temporary Residence Permit by marriage. The law states that you must have minimum 30 days left on your current visa when applying for any extension or new visa. It will completely depend upon who you deal with at HA but from experience, it is hard to find anyone who takes the time to listen to what you have to say let alone have any understanding for your circumstances. To be honest, if I were you I would get a lawyer involved, it will make your life easier. You must always have a valid visa in place, whether you have an application in or not. I arrived here on a 90 days visitors visa and applied for my Temporary Residence Permit when I had 30 days left on my visa. My Temporary Residence Permit would not come through in 30 days (they never do) and my lawyer therefore got a specific document signed by Home Affairs which allowed me to remain in the country whilst awaiting the outcome of my application. I had to carry this document with me at all times and I was not allowed to leave the Free State (which is where I applied) whilst not having a valid visa in place. It took about three months before I had my Temporary Residence Permit.

Your husband should come with you as you will both need to be interviewed. Again, its different procedures at all offices. When I applied for the Temp Res my husband and I were interviewed in separate rooms for about half an hour. They peppered us with questions about everything you can think of. However, when I applied for my Permanent Residence, all I had to do was answer five questions about our relationship and this was done at the counter and my husband did not have to answer any questions. 

The upside is that you do not have to pay any fees for your applications as you are a Spouse of a SA citizen.


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## ksanna

_*Just 2 Quick Quotes from the HA website*_
*

How long before my current permit expires, should l apply for an extension? * 

A foreigner who is in the Republic and applies for a change of status or conditions relating to his or her temporary residence permit, or for an extension of the period for which the permit was issued, shall submit his or her application at least 30 days prior to the date of expiry of that permit: Provided that (a) in the case of a permit issued for less than 30 days ; or (b) where such foreigner failed to comply with this sub regulation,_ the application shall only be accepted within the validity period of the permit and upon the foreigner having demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Director-General that good cause exists for acceptance of the late application._
*
Due to unforeseen circumstances. 1 have just realized that my work permit has expired 3 days ago. May I have it extended? *

Any illegal foreigner shall depart, unless authorized by the Director-General in the prescribed manner to remain in the Republic pending his or her application for a status.

However, upon requesting authorization as indicated above, an illegal foreigner who has neither been arrested for the purpose of deportation nor ordered to depart and who wishes to apply for a status after the date of expiry of his or her permit, shall -
(a) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Director-General that he or she was unable to apply for such status for reasons beyond his or her control
(b) submit proof to the Director-General that he or she is in a position to submit his or her application for a status.

The way I do understand it it depends on the good cause letter. There was a reason for the late application. As I stated my marriage certificate we just got it in beginning of January.

Or do I read that wrong?

My friend also said, that this would be the way to go. Also that if you have applied for a visa that until the decision is made about it you may stay in the country its just when you want to get out its tricky and one needs the Form 20 or so.

I am confuded now...


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## Saartjie

ksanna said:


> _*Just 2 Quick Quotes from the HA website*_
> *
> 
> How long before my current permit expires, should l apply for an extension? *
> 
> A foreigner who is in the Republic and applies for a change of status or conditions relating to his or her temporary residence permit, or for an extension of the period for which the permit was issued, shall submit his or her application at least 30 days prior to the date of expiry of that permit: Provided that (a) in the case of a permit issued for less than 30 days ; or (b) where such foreigner failed to comply with this sub regulation,_ the application shall only be accepted within the validity period of the permit and upon the foreigner having demonstrated to the satisfaction of the Director-General that good cause exists for acceptance of the late application._
> *
> Due to unforeseen circumstances. 1 have just realized that my work permit has expired 3 days ago. May I have it extended? *
> 
> Any illegal foreigner shall depart, unless authorized by the Director-General in the prescribed manner to remain in the Republic pending his or her application for a status.
> 
> However, upon requesting authorization as indicated above, an illegal foreigner who has neither been arrested for the purpose of deportation nor ordered to depart and who wishes to apply for a status after the date of expiry of his or her permit, shall -
> (a) demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Director-General that he or she was unable to apply for such status for reasons beyond his or her control
> (b) submit proof to the Director-General that he or she is in a position to submit his or her application for a status.
> 
> The way I do understand it it depends on the good cause letter. There was a reason for the late application. As I stated my marriage certificate we just got it in beginning of January.
> 
> Or do I read that wrong?
> 
> My friend also said, that this would be the way to go. Also that if you have applied for a visa that until the decision is made about it you may stay in the country its just when you want to get out its tricky and one needs the Form 20 or so.
> 
> I am confuded now...


I only told you what my experience was. I currently hold TR, I am awaiting the outcome of my Perm Res application. If the PR does not come through before my TR expires in 2013 then I must apply for a new TR 30 days before it expires. My PR application does not allow me to remain in the country if I do not hold another valid visa (it clearly states so on my application receipt). As I stated, all HA offices are different. The best way to find out is to go and submit your application. At least you know that it is in. If you have a friend who has knowledge about these things and she knows what to do then even better for you.


----------



## concord

Saartjie said:


> Now that is a HUGE plus for you. I made my application for PR at Barrack Street and they were brilliant!!! I would recommend Cape Town HA to anyone for sure. I feel much more positive for your application now that I know you are going there:clap2: Let me know how you get on.


 Sad to say that but my experience with this HA wasnt really fortunate 
Thank you very much, Saartjie, for all the advice and help but it didnt work out for me. We spent over 5 hours in the line and handed in our application to a woman at the counter. I specified that we wanted a SPOUSAL not a RELATIVE'S permit (of course in the form we wrorte "a spousal permit - section 11(6) permit" as well). After that I had to listen to a lecture that they're the same and she knows better than a cissy (=me). My husband made a sign for me not to argue coz he was afraid she wouldnt take my application at all if I try to argue and piss her off. I mean I tried to be polite but I guess Russian people always sound as if they argue even we just talk to each other . In the end she accepted the documents but of course my receipt said "section 18 permit".

I didnt give up. I was advised to talk to a superviser since I had a printed extract from the Immigration Act which could help to prove that the law was on my side. We went to look for the superviser and had to ask a woman at the reception. Basically she said the same - she couldnt understand why I wanted to talk to the superviser coz those permits are absolutely identical in her opinion. Honestly I just cried out... First, because of helplessness... I mean I looked like a hysterical woman trying to argue. But it's not like I tried to prove my point because it's not just my point of view, I had a proof from the law... Second, I was so disappointed that my husband didnt support me in this "battle". I've spent so much time looking for the answers, trying to explain to him the difference between these two permits. And he seemed to understand that. Well, we're here not to discuss my husband and his behaviour so that's my story. But honestly I dont know what else I could do to change the situation?

I guess in 4-6 months I'll end up with a permit saying "relative's" on it.


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## concord

By the way I wanted to double check if I understood everything correct.
I know for sure that if I have a relative's permit and if I get a job offer I have to submit a completely new application with a new medical and x-ray reports, a new police clearance report etc. (all the documents I handed in now for a relative's/spousal permit).
But if one day I finally get a spousal permit and I get a job offer after the permit was issued what do I have to bring to the HA to get a work endorsement? I understand it doesnt have to be a new application. Must be some paperwork including a job offer and the explanation why the employer want to hire me? Or something else as well?


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## ksanna

*Sposal == Relatives*

Hello. I handed in my application 2 weeks ago without any problems. Have been at the Bellville office and was not there for over an hour. The officer was really nice and went through the whole application and every single piece of paper, so that there is nothing missing. That is basically what took so long (or not, when I hear about the 5 hours) I have been there by 2 p.m. and think that is a good time, because most people go in the morning. I had everything with me and also a copy from the application as this is now required too.

The Spousal and the relatives visa are both the same and they will always write relatives visa on your application when you are married. When you apply and you already have a job offer they do write "+ Work Permit" in it. If not then not. But you can always go to home affairs again when you have a Job Offer and apply for that work permit to put onto your Visa. The actual Visa you will be on is a Relatives Visa that allows you to stay in South Africa but not work (by the way the Spousal Visa does also not allow you to work) you will always need the extension of the Work Permit.

In your Visa that you will get will most probably stand something like "Bla Bla Bla Visa ... to stay with SA Spouse and take up employment with" if you have handed in the Work permit files (Job Offer etc) if not it will just say "...to stay with SA spouse."

Hope this helps.


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## ksanna

As I said it: The Spousal and the Relatives Permit are both the same. The thing is it really depends on the mood of the officer if you have to hand in a whole new application. some of my friends had to, some didn't. And all where on the same Visa. So the best is to apply with the whole lot. But if you have to apply when you get the Job Offer go to HA and ask what you have to hand in. also tell them that you already have handed in your Application for the Visa and all the X-Rays etc. Normally you also do not have to hand in everything again, when you do an extension but that also depends on the mood of the officer that day. So the best thing is always to have everything. The X-Rays and Doctors certificate are valid for 6 month, so when you get the Job offer in that time you can use yours again.


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## Saartjie

ksanna said:


> As I said it: The Spousal and the Relatives Permit are both the same. The thing is it really depends on the mood of the officer if you have to hand in a whole new application. some of my friends had to, some didn't. And all where on the same Visa. So the best is to apply with the whole lot. But if you have to apply when you get the Job Offer go to HA and ask what you have to hand in. also tell them that you already have handed in your Application for the Visa and all the X-Rays etc. Normally you also do not have to hand in everything again, when you do an extension but that also depends on the mood of the officer that day. So the best thing is always to have everything. The X-Rays and Doctors certificate are valid for 6 month, so when you get the Job offer in that time you can use yours again.


Sorry but that is totally incorrect. A Relatives visa is granted under section 18 of the Immigration Act of 2002 a Spousal visa is granted under section 11(6) of the Immigration Act of 2002. They are different visas. Section 18 specifically states that you are not allowed to work with this visa. Section 11(6) allows you to work if you get a work endorsement.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> By the way I wanted to double check if I understood everything correct.
> I know for sure that if I have a relative's permit and if I get a job offer I have to submit a completely new application with a new medical and x-ray reports, a new police clearance report etc. (all the documents I handed in now for a relative's/spousal permit).
> But if one day I finally get a spousal permit and I get a job offer after the permit was issued what do I have to bring to the HA to get a work endorsement? I understand it doesnt have to be a new application. Must be some paperwork including a job offer and the explanation why the employer want to hire me? Or something else as well?


So sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience. As stated many times before, it totally depends upon who deals with your application. Anyway, keeping fingers crossed that you will sort it out, which you will although everything takes so bloody long here. If you end up with a Relatives Permit then yes you need to make a new application. However this time you make an application called 'Application for change of condition on existing permit'. The form you need is form BI-1740. I did this one myself and you state on there that you want to change your section 18 permit to a section 11(6) permit. The reason you give is that you wish to work and that you are a spouse of SA citizen. You enclose the same forms as previously, if they are still valid, remember that Police Clearance is only valid for 6 months. If you have got a job offer you also include an offer letter from your employer and you should also get the employer to sign the form (there is a section for them to fill in and sign). The employer does not need to explain why they want to employ you (as a spouse that requirement falls away). They only need to state what job they have offered you, salary etc. It's all quite simple, it's just that it takes a long time.


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## concord

Saartjie said:


> As stated many times before, it totally depends upon who deals with your application. If you end up with a Relatives Permit then yes you need to make a new application. However this time you make an application called 'Application for change of condition on existing permit'. The form you need is form BI-1740. I did this one myself and you state on there that you want to change your section 18 permit to a section 11(6) permit. The reason you give is that you wish to work and that you are a spouse of SA citizen. You enclose the same forms as previously, if they are still valid, remember that Police Clearance is only valid for 6 months.


 I see that it really depends who you deal with (that was the reason I wanted to talk to the superviser - to get another opinion of a person who I believed was supposed to be more knowledgeable).
You know what is funny? I did fill in the form BI-1740!!! We came to the HA with BI-1738 but they didnt even take it but asked to fill in BI-1740. So as I mentioned before I stated there that I wanted to change my Visitor's visa status to a section 11(6) permit - a spousal permit. But my receipt says section 18 permit anyway.

I cant enclose the same forms because HA official took the originals... On my weak protests "what they lose them!" I got an answer "Sissy, HA of Pretoria want the originals" (because I hoped even if they take the originals tthey'll keep them here in CT - not a chance)...


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> I see that it really depends who you deal with (that was the reason I wanted to talk to the superviser - to get another opinion of a person who I believed was supposed to be more knowledgeable).
> You know what is funny? I did fill in the form BI-1740!!! We came to the HA with BI-1738 but they didnt even take it but asked to fill in BI-1740. So as I mentioned before I stated there that I wanted to change my Visitor's visa status to a section 11(6) permit - a spousal permit. But my receipt says section 18 permit anyway.
> 
> I cant enclose the same forms because HA official took the originals... On my weak protests "what they lose them!" I got an answer "Sissy, HA of Pretoria want the originals" (because I hoped even if they take the originals tthey'll keep them here in CT - not a chance)...


That's totally out of order. The rule is that if you bring originals with certified copies then they can check the original there and then, take the certified copy and let you keep the originals.


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## concord

ksanna said:


> The Spousal and the relatives visa are both the same and they will always write relatives visa on your application when you are married. When you apply and you already have a job offer they do write "+ Work Permit" in it. If not then not. But you can always go to home affairs again when you have a Job Offer and apply for that work permit to put onto your Visa. The actual Visa you will be on is a Relatives Visa that allows you to stay in South Africa but not work (by the way the Spousal Visa does also not allow you to work) you will always need the extension of the Work Permit.


 ksanna, thank you for an answer but as Saartjie said you're not really right.
Here's an extract from the Immigration Act of 2002:

11. Visitor’s Permit
(6) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section, *a visitor’s permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or permanent residen*t and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22: Provided that- such permit shall only be valid while the good faith spousal relationship exists; on application, *the holder of such permit may be authorised to perform any of the activities provided for in the permits contemplated in sections 13 to 22*; and the holder of such permit shall apply for permanent residence contemplated in section 26 (b) within three months from the date upon which he or she qualified to be issued with that permit. 


18. Relative’s permit 
(1) A relative’s permit may be issued for the prescribed period by the Director-General to a foreigner who is a member of the immediate family of a citizen or a permanent resident, provided that such citizen or permanent resident provides the prescribed financial assurance. 
(2) *The holder of a relative’s permit may not conduct work*. 


Basically if these permits are in different sections of the law it's not the same. I mean why to write another section in the act if it's the same? Section 11(6) permit is issued to a spouse who can do everything contemplated in sections 13-22 (study permit, work permit, relative's permit, business permit, medical treatment permit etc.). Yes, I'll have to get an endorsement but I wont have to submit the whole new application.
But people who work in HA dont know it. It is ok, I can understand. But why dont you listen to what I say? Why do I have to suffer because she/he is incompetent and/or in a bad mood?
I think I wouldnt care if it were like you said: when I ask for an extention of an existing permit. But if I have to change my relative's permit (section 18) to a spousal one I'll have to get all new reports. So it's $100 for a med and x-ray. Then more than $100 for a police clearance report which I'll have to get from my embassy in Pretoria (how long will it take?) (think it's still cheaper than flying back home for $1500-1600). Why should I spend extra money and my nerves because somebody over there is in a bad mood?

I'm sorry it's not your fault but I'm still very upset coz it was only yesterday


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## irishexpat

Here's a question: Has anyone been issued, or know of anyone who has been issued, a permit under 11(6) _without_ it including a work or study endorsement? Because I haven't. So far as I can find out in, and others may know better, 11(6) permits are only ever issued when you seek an endorsement - and so require you to submit a whole new application. 
Mind you, Home Affairs officials I've spoken to in Harrison Street, Joburg seem to believe that even if a spousal permit WERE to be issued, once you needed an "endorsement" _they would still require you to submit a new application_.

It may be that I've just not met a Home Affairs official who knows their job or the law, but experience and reading court cases over the past eight years has me convinced that no such beast exists.


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## jcrainshaw

I am going through the same problem, my immigration lawyer helped me apply for a partnership permit. I have been waiting 6 months and still don't have it. It was explained to me this way, my partnership permit allows me to work in SA upon a job offer, if I do not have a job offer I can wait and tag it on later. If I get the permit and still don't have a job offer they can submit the paperwork for the work permit and after 30 days I am eligible to work bc I have turned in the paperwork. Whether or not this is correct info I'm not sure. I feel like we are told a new story every week. Hope you get it worked out, I know its an extremely frustrating and stressful process


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## Saartjie

jcrainshaw said:


> I am going through the same problem, my immigration lawyer helped me apply for a partnership permit. I have been waiting 6 months and still don't have it. It was explained to me this way, my partnership permit allows me to work in SA upon a job offer, if I do not have a job offer I can wait and tag it on later. If I get the permit and still don't have a job offer they can submit the paperwork for the work permit and after 30 days I am eligible to work bc I have turned in the paperwork. Whether or not this is correct info I'm not sure. I feel like we are told a new story every week. Hope you get it worked out, I know its an extremely frustrating and stressful process


We are all in the same boat it seems. Been waiting 9 months for my spousal visa now fun fun. Still, I actually got a call from Home Affairs last week (yes miracles do happen) and the lady called to say that my case had now been escalated as someone had figured out that it should have been issued after 30 days of application but it was now nine months later. It probably will not make any difference but we'll see. As it is at the moment I think that my Permanent Residency will come through quicker than my Spousal permit. Not sure how it works with partnership permits but with other work permits or endorsements you are not allowed to work until the permit has been issued. The receipt you are handed at Home Affairs on application stipulates this.


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## concord

Saartjie said:


> Been waiting 9 months for my spousal visa now fun fun. Still, I actually got a call from Home Affairs last week (yes miracles do happen) and the lady called to say that my case had now been escalated as someone had figured out that it should have been issued after 30 days of application but it was now nine months later. It probably will not make any difference but we'll see. As it is at the moment I think that my Permanent Residency will come through quicker than my Spousal permit.


 Wow, 9 months! This is absolutely ridiculous! So your call and a complaint at Zuma's helpdesk didnt really help?
BTW here's an article about HA related to all our problems
Immigration's lies and stagnation - Comment and analysis - Mail & Guardian Online


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> Wow, 9 months! This is absolutely ridiculous! So your call and a complaint at Zuma's helpdesk didnt really help?
> BTW here's an article about HA related to all our problems
> Immigration's lies and stagnation - Comment and analysis - Mail & Guardian Online


Well the lady that called me from HA said it was to follow up on my complaint to the Zuma hotline so I guess the call did something as up until last week I had heard nothing apart from the call center who kept telling me that my application had been lost for the third time. Still, whether it will actually lead somewhere is a different story but yes nine months is pretty ridiculous. I hope that I can one day look back at this and laugh but as it is at the moment is just totally frustrating. Interesting article!! Oh and I just saw that it is written by the lawyer (Gary Eisenberg) that I am using for my PR application.


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## jcrainshaw

Have you tried the new hotline number? Well my lawyer said it was new, not sure if it is or isn't. The lady was really nice and said she will call me in 24 hours with some info, I'll keep you posted if she does and if it's helpful.


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## Saartjie

jcrainshaw said:


> Have you tried the new hotline number? Well my lawyer said it was new, not sure if it is or isn't. The lady was really nice and said she will call me in 24 hours with some info, I'll keep you posted if she does and if it's helpful.


I was really impressed with the hotline when I called. They were very nice and helpful. However I lodged my complaint on the 11th November 2011 and I only heard from Home Affairs last week so although something seems to have happened it is not particularly quick. Good luck though, I hope you get some help.


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## Sunshine3

*Spousal permit/work permit*



RSA_Newbie said:


> Saartjie, I need to contact you urgently as you seem to have some experience with this whole spousal permit/work permit situation here. I am a USA citizen married to a South African and have been looking for work now for the past three months with no success. I'd like to chat in a pm if possible. I sent a friend request to you and added you as a contact. Please reply. Thank you.


Hi Newbie, if you are still looking for answers regarding work/spousal permit please get in touch; I might be able to help!


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## Brulpadda

Hi, could anyone please help me. My partner is about to apply for temporary residency as my spousal partner, we have all the documentation for this. He has recently received a job offer and we were advised we could apply for everything at once, and he does not need to get all the documentation required for a work permit, but can get a work endorsement with his temporary residency. Is this the case? If so, what form do we will in, and what documents need to be submitted in addition to the temporary residency application. Also, should he submit the Change of Status form (B1 - 1740), or the Temp Res application form?
Thanks for any help


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## Saartjie

Brulpadda said:


> Hi, could anyone please help me. My partner is about to apply for temporary residency as my spousal partner, we have all the documentation for this. He has recently received a job offer and we were advised we could apply for everything at once, and he does not need to get all the documentation required for a work permit, but can get a work endorsement with his temporary residency. Is this the case? If so, what form do we will in, and what documents need to be submitted in addition to the temporary residency application. Also, should he submit the Change of Status form (B1 - 1740), or the Temp Res application form?
> Thanks for any help


Hi there, I am sure we have covered this before either on this thread or another. Anyway I shall try to help. Firstly, what permit does your partner currently have? If it is a visitors permit (90 days) and that is about to run out, remember that he must get permission from Home Affairs to remain in the country whilst awaiting the outcome of his Temporary Residency application. Just submitting the application does not give you the right to remain in the country. There is a form to complete and get stamped at Home Affairs. Can't remember what it is called as my lawyer sorted it out for me but Home Affairs should know what you need.

Secondly, you do not say if you are married or not but as you intend to apply for the Spousal permit I assume that you are married. If that is the case then yes you can apply for a work endorsement at the same time. I believe you should use the normal Temporary Residency application form but in addition to the usual paperwork you should also include an offer letter from the company that has offered employment and the company should also sign the application form where indicated. Whether or not you must submit the change of status form I am not sure. When I applied for my first Temporary Residence permit whilst being here on a visitors visa I did not need to submit the change of status form (however they change the rules all the time so do not take my word for it).

Your partner might want to consider informing the company that has offered him employment that it might take some time before the work endorsement comes through. Its better to give a bit of a warning. Everyone has different experiences when it comes to waiting time but on my part, I applied for my work endorsement on the 1st May 2011 and I am still waiting for it so it is not a very quick process (at least when one applies in Germiston). 

Not sure if I have answered all your questions but I hope this is of some help.


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## concord

It might depend on the place where you apply. Anyway I had a visitors visa and I only filled in BI-1740 (form to change a permit/visa status). I had BI-1738 (temporary residency form) as well but they didnt want it and gave it back.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> It might depend on the place where you apply. Anyway I had a visitors visa and I only filled in BI-1740 (form to change a permit/visa status). I had BI-1738 (temporary residency form) as well but they didnt want it and gave it back.


You are totally right. The first time I applied (in Bloemfontein) I only used the temporary residency form but the second time (in Germiston) all I used was the BI-1740.


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## MarcelleK

Wow, it's mind boggling all the conflicting info on the two permits / visas. We are moving to Cape Town in October. My husband is a Kiwi and we have started looking at the processes for his relatives permit after talking to the guys at Embassy in London. It seems like we were also given the incorrect information as we were told to just apply for a relatives visa. My husband will do a small start up IT business down in SA or contract to one of the banks (that is what he does here) so will be working for himself. We are aware that he will be a business endorsement on his visa. Do I understand correctly that he can not get this on a relatives visa and it has to be a spousal? We would like to apply for the correct paperwork before we get to South Africa as believe it might go a bit quicker over here. Anyone have any experience or info that might be helpful??? Any recommendations will be appreciated.

Good luck to everyone, it seems we need it


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## Saartjie

MarcelleK said:


> Wow, it's mind boggling all the conflicting info on the two permits / visas. We are moving to Cape Town in October. My husband is a Kiwi and we have started looking at the processes for his relatives permit after talking to the guys at Embassy in London. It seems like we were also given the incorrect information as we were told to just apply for a relatives visa. My husband will do a small start up IT business down in SA or contract to one of the banks (that is what he does here) so will be working for himself. We are aware that he will be a business endorsement on his visa. Do I understand correctly that he can not get this on a relatives visa and it has to be a spousal? We would like to apply for the correct paperwork before we get to South Africa as believe it might go a bit quicker over here. Anyone have any experience or info that might be helpful??? Any recommendations will be appreciated.
> 
> Good luck to everyone, it seems we need it


SA Embassies usually do not issue Spousal permits, why that is I do not know. They will tell you that you are being issued a Spousal but when you receive it it will say Relatives permit and this permit cannot be endorsed for work or business. As such, I do not think you can apply for your Spousal permit before coming to SA. Not sure how long you have been married but if it is five years or more than your husband qualifies for Permanent Residency and with that he can work or start up business without any endorsements. Hope this helps.


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## Uvongo

Hi all, I was just wondering, what's the longest somebody was waiting on their Spouse temp.res. permits without getting lawyers involved and stuff like that? I've been waiting for mine for 7 months now and not really sure what to do! We keep calling our regional Paarl office, we e-mailed HA minister office a couple of times (no response!), we keep calling the Call center which in my opinion should have been closed long time ago, and still... nothing! I mean if you wait for a year, then it's about time to apply for another permit!


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## matflat

*Some info that may help*

Hi,

I posted here months ago when I started out on the journey to get my temporary residency visa. There are a trillion ways to skin the cat with this, and this is my experience. We are leaving to fly to South Africa next week.

I submitted my application the last week of February under the Spousal route. I can not tell you the pain and suffering I have been through with South Africa House in the UK. A total and utter unmitigated place of bad communication and processes.

Anyway I got my Temporary Residence visa last week after hundreds of phone calls and countless ignored emails. I honestly think that it was the amount of complaining I did that made them give me the visa, just to shut me up. The strange thing is is that the visa says Relative, not Spousal. I rang South Africa House again and was told this is what it is, no Spousal, just Relative. Ok fine. I asked if it can be endorsed for work when I get to South Africa and they say yes, take it to a local office and get it stamped.

So I have the visa now and I also have a job lined up in South Africa. However, after reading through the forums again, doubt and fear are now creeping in about the Work Endorsement.

What I have been told by South Africa House, numerous Immigration Consultants, and the Department of Home Affairs Contact Centre in South Africa, is to take a contract of employment, my passport with visa and lots of things to prove who you are to the local office and it will be processed. I literally just got off the phone with the DHA Contact Centre in SA and those were their exact words.

I only hope this info helps.

Thanks,
Mat.


----------



## Uvongo

matflat said:


> Hi,
> 
> I posted here months ago when I started out on the journey to get my temporary residency visa. There are a trillion ways to skin the cat with this, and this is my experience. We are leaving to fly to South Africa next week.
> 
> I submitted my application the last week of February under the Spousal route. I can not tell you the pain and suffering I have been through with South Africa House in the UK. A total and utter unmitigated place of bad communication and processes.
> 
> Anyway I got my Temporary Residence visa last week after hundreds of phone calls and countless ignored emails. I honestly think that it was the amount of complaining I did that made them give me the visa, just to shut me up. The strange thing is is that the visa says Relative, not Spousal. I rang South Africa House again and was told this is what it is, no Spousal, just Relative. Ok fine. I asked if it can be endorsed for work when I get to South Africa and they say yes, take it to a local office and get it stamped.
> 
> So I have the visa now and I also have a job lined up in South Africa. However, after reading through the forums again, doubt and fear are now creeping in about the Work Endorsement.
> 
> What I have been told by South Africa House, numerous Immigration Consultants, and the Department of Home Affairs Contact Centre in South Africa, is to take a contract of employment, my passport with visa and lots of things to prove who you are to the local office and it will be processed. I literally just got off the phone with the DHA Contact Centre in SA and those were their exact words.
> 
> I only hope this info helps.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mat.



Hi, thank you for the info. That's exactly what I've been told - be persistent and you'll get. I guess I haven't got to the point yet but I'm close! I heard from numerous people that if I bombard them with my phone calls and complaints, I might eventually get my permit.. a few months sooner than everybody else.. meanwhile I just sit and wait for my phone to ring....


----------



## 2fargone

I posted here months ago when I started out on the journey to get my temporary residency visa. There are a trillion ways to skin the cat with this, and this is my experience. We are leaving to fly to South Africa next week.

The strange thing is is that the visa says Relative, not Spousal. I rang South Africa House again and was told this is what it is, no Spousal, just Relative. Ok fine. I asked if it can be endorsed for work when I get to South Africa and they say yes, take it to a local office and get it stamped.

So I have the visa now and I also have a job lined up in South Africa. However, after reading through the forums again, doubt and fear are now creeping in about the Work Endorsement.

Hi What did they mean by "get it stamped" I am in the same boat you are in. But I went to HA in Cape Town and I was given forms to fill in to submit a new application. This would included to right to work. I was not as simple as getting in stamped. Just wondering which HA you spoke to as then all seem to want/request something different.


----------



## matflat

Hi Poopsie23,

I rang the Dept. of Home Affairs 232 Proes and Andries Street, Hallmark Building, Pretoria on +2711 461 9252.

This puts everything back to square 1 if I have to go through another visa application.

Thanks,
Mat.


----------



## 2fargone

matflat said:


> Hi Poopsie23,
> 
> I rang the Dept. of Home Affairs 232 Proes and Andries Street, Hallmark Building, Pretoria on +2711 461 9252.
> 
> This puts everything back to square 1 if I have to go through another visa application.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mat.


Hi Mat,

I would not be very worried. If you already have a job offer. It should not take very long for the visa to be endorced to work. When I went to HA in Cape Town I was told since I am submitting a new application I need X-ray report, Medical report and Police clearance. Save them from the UK. I was told they would be good for 6 months. I have all the papers they gave me I have to fill out if you have any more questions feel free to ask.


----------



## concord

matflat said:


> So I have the visa now and I also have a job lined up in South Africa. However, after reading through the forums again, doubt and fear are now creeping in about the Work Endorsement.
> 
> What I have been told by South Africa House, numerous Immigration Consultants, and the Department of Home Affairs Contact Centre in South Africa, is to take a contract of employment, my passport with visa and lots of things to prove who you are to the local office and it will be processed. I literally just got off the phone with the DHA Contact Centre in SA and those were their exact words.


 *Matflat*, can you please let us know about the outcome of your story? What you say is really interesting because I've never heard of a permit/visa endorsed just by a stamp. I have exactly the same information you have read on the forum - that you have to submit a completely new application. And if have to do that it won't be soon like *Poopsie* said.


----------



## Saartjie

matflat said:


> Hi,
> 
> I posted here months ago when I started out on the journey to get my temporary residency visa. There are a trillion ways to skin the cat with this, and this is my experience. We are leaving to fly to South Africa next week.
> 
> I submitted my application the last week of February under the Spousal route. I can not tell you the pain and suffering I have been through with South Africa House in the UK. A total and utter unmitigated place of bad communication and processes.
> 
> Anyway I got my Temporary Residence visa last week after hundreds of phone calls and countless ignored emails. I honestly think that it was the amount of complaining I did that made them give me the visa, just to shut me up. The strange thing is is that the visa says Relative, not Spousal. I rang South Africa House again and was told this is what it is, no Spousal, just Relative. Ok fine. I asked if it can be endorsed for work when I get to South Africa and they say yes, take it to a local office and get it stamped.
> 
> So I have the visa now and I also have a job lined up in South Africa. However, after reading through the forums again, doubt and fear are now creeping in about the Work Endorsement.
> 
> What I have been told by South Africa House, numerous Immigration Consultants, and the Department of Home Affairs Contact Centre in South Africa, is to take a contract of employment, my passport with visa and lots of things to prove who you are to the local office and it will be processed. I literally just got off the phone with the DHA Contact Centre in SA and those were their exact words.
> 
> I only hope this info helps.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mat.


Hi Mat, have just read through your posts. I was exactly in your position and sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I think you have been given the wrong information (as usual). I applied for a Spousal Permit but received a permit which stated Relatives Permit (to reside with SA Spouse). I was also told that this could be endorsed and so I applied for a job, got it and went to HA in Germiston to get my 'stamp'. Firstly I was told that there is no such thing as a stamp and secondly I was told that my permit was a Relatives Permit and as such this cannot ever be endorsed for work. I was informed that I must reapply for a new permit which can be endorsed for work and to apply for the endorsement at the same time. I made this application on the 31st May 2011 (basically submitting the same documentation as previously provided but updated together with an offer of employment). Since then HA has lost my application three times. It was only after getting the assistance of the Presidential Hotline here in SA that I received my new permit with the endorsement. I received my permit in March 2012 and so the whole process took all in all about 10 months. Lucky for me I have a very understanding employer so I have been working 'illegally' whilst waiting for my permit. Now I am currently waiting for my Permanent Residency which I applied for last year but since the waiting time is up to two years I do not expect to hear anything anytime soon.

In view of the above I think you might need to reapply for a Spousal Permit with the work endorsement when you get here. I suggest you attend HA when you get here with you stuff to see what they say. It is not uncommon to get told one thing in one office and another in another office and who knows you might be lucky to get some one helpful to help you.

Finally, when you get here, you must always attend a Regional Office of HA (not a local one). The local offices do not deal with any immigration matters. If you have a look at the HA website it will list the Regional Offices.


----------



## matflat

Hi Saartjie,

Thanks for the advice. Spoke to the company this morning and they are cool with the situation. They were the ones calming me down 

It is not the waiting for things that annoys me, it is inconsistent communication. I would happily redesign their process for free, no charge whatsoever. Its not rocket science what needs to be done. How on earth they can pull the wool over peoples eyes like this is beyond me.

Funnily enough I mentioned earlier that I contacted the CSC by telephone and was told one thing. I then get an email saying something slightly different! I have pasted the info below:

Re: Relative Visa Question

Thank you for writing to the Department of Home Affairs Customer Service Centre.

Regarding the enquiry below, please note that you will be required to apply for a change of conditions on your work permit submitting the following documents:

a passport valid for at least 30 days after intended stay in the Republic
Your prospective employer must submit proof to the Department of Home Affairs stating the following:
that the post offered to you exists
that the post and related job description was advertised in the prescribed manner
That there were no suitably qualified South African citizen or permanent resident to fill the position.
a marriage certificate (if you are married)
R1520 must be paid for the application.
The reference number/s for this email is: 1204/025/700

For further assistance, please reply to this email or contact our Customer Service Centre on 0800 60 11 90. If abroad, please dial +27 11 461 9252

I have replied to them asking which flipping forms I need to complete and exactly which REGIONAL office I need to contact. I have completed as many application forms in the last 24hrs as I could lay my hands on as you never know which one they will ask for 

All the best.

Mat.


----------



## matflat

Quick side note to Poopsie23's earlier message - Depending on how you approach your doctor and the private healthcare company that would have taken your x-rays etc, I managed to get mine to reissue the reports they did for no charge. I had copies but having an original when faced with the SA bureaucracy seems to be a good idea.


----------



## Saartjie

matflat said:


> Hi Saartjie,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Spoke to the company this morning and they are cool with the situation. They were the ones calming me down
> 
> It is not the waiting for things that annoys me, it is inconsistent communication. I would happily redesign their process for free, no charge whatsoever. Its not rocket science what needs to be done. How on earth they can pull the wool over peoples eyes like this is beyond me.
> 
> Funnily enough I mentioned earlier that I contacted the CSC by telephone and was told one thing. I then get an email saying something slightly different! I have pasted the info below:
> 
> Re: Relative Visa Question
> 
> Thank you for writing to the Department of Home Affairs Customer Service Centre.
> 
> Regarding the enquiry below, please note that you will be required to apply for a change of conditions on your work permit submitting the following documents:
> 
> a passport valid for at least 30 days after intended stay in the Republic
> Your prospective employer must submit proof to the Department of Home Affairs stating the following:
> that the post offered to you exists
> that the post and related job description was advertised in the prescribed manner
> That there were no suitably qualified South African citizen or permanent resident to fill the position.
> a marriage certificate (if you are married)
> R1520 must be paid for the application.
> The reference number/s for this email is: 1204/025/700
> 
> For further assistance, please reply to this email or contact our Customer Service Centre on 0800 60 11 90. If abroad, please dial +27 11 461 9252
> 
> I have replied to them asking which flipping forms I need to complete and exactly which REGIONAL office I need to contact. I have completed as many application forms in the last 24hrs as I could lay my hands on as you never know which one they will ask for
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Mat.


Hi there. I totally understand your frustration. Have gone through the exact thing myself. So they have misinformed you again. Firstly, you do NOT need to provide evidence that the job position you have been offered was advertised in the prescribed manner. This particular hurdle falls away when you are a Spouse of an SA citizen and the law is very clear on this. Please therefore do not bother to do this or ask your company about it because it is not necessary. Secondly, there is NO fee to be paid because you are a Spouse of an SA citizen, the HA website states this and also the law is very clear on this. Finally, the form you need to fill in is Form BI-1740 'Application for Change of Condition on Existing Permit or Change of Status'. This is the form that I used to change my Relatives Permit to Spousal Permit with work endorsement. I have this form as a pdf document so should you not be able to get hold of it let me know. You should always go to the Regional Office that is either closest to where you live or where you will work. If you go anywhere else they will not accept your application. 

I cannot believe that they provide people with this information. They clearly have no idea what they are talking about. However, I suspect that the Customer Service Centre that you are corresponding with are an out sourced company rather than HA themselves. There is a help line for HA here in SA and although it states that it is HA you are calling, it is actually an outsourced company and the information that they hold is neither complete nor accurate. 

Hope the above helps but if you have any more questions let me know.


----------



## concord

Saartjie said:


> So they have misinformed you again. Firstly, you do NOT need to provide evidence that the job position you have been offered was advertised in the prescribed manner. This particular hurdle falls away when you are a Spouse of an SA citizen and the law is very clear on this.
> 
> I cannot believe that they provide people with this information. They clearly have no idea what they are talking about.


 Saartjie, I think it was a big misunderstating between Matflat and HA again. In the reply they actually mention WORK permit. In case of applying for a work permit you do need all the documents they mentioned.
But! We know that Matflat doesn't need a work permit but must apply for a spousal permit with a work endorsement which is a complete different story. That's why they can't demand any proofs that the position was advertised etc.


----------



## Saartjie

concord said:


> Saartjie, I think it was a big misunderstating between Matflat and HA again. In the reply they actually mention WORK permit. In case of applying for a work permit you do need all the documents they mentioned.
> But! We know that Matflat doesn't need a work permit but must apply for a spousal permit with a work endorsement which is a complete different story. That's why they can't demand any proofs that the position was advertised etc.


Still, the heading of the message says 'Re: Relatives Visa Question' so someone at that office never thought before they typed the message as indeed the message also says 'change condition on work permit' but what does that have to do with a Relatives Permit? They should check their facts before sending incorrect information and confusing people. I just get so tired of hearing how they misinform people.


----------



## concord

Saartjie said:


> Still, the heading of the message says 'Re: Relatives Visa Question' so someone at that office never thought before they typed the message.


 My fault - didn't notice that "Re: Relative's visa question"


----------



## karaboss

Hi everybody, I'm a French hubby of SA citizen, on the way to go settle to SA. I've read all this threads but still I'm wondering if someone has gone through all this with the help of a n immigration service or even a lawyer. Has someone got details about this (cost, delays, good or bad experience ?) 
Modo will maybe think this could be a new thread.... :eyebrows:
Thanks


----------



## Saartjie

karaboss said:


> Hi everybody, I'm a French hubby of SA citizen, on the way to go settle to SA. I've read all this threads but still I'm wondering if someone has gone through all this with the help of a n immigration service or even a lawyer. Has someone got details about this (cost, delays, good or bad experience ?)
> Modo will maybe think this could be a new thread.... :eyebrows:
> Thanks


I am using a lawyer for my PR application due to my bad experience with my TR application. They charge R15,000 plus VAT (which after serious investigation is about the going rate for most firms here in SA for this kind of application) and up until now I am very happy with their work. If you want the name I can send it to you on private messaging as I am not sure I am allowed to put it up here.


----------



## karaboss

Saartjie said:


> I am using a lawyer for my PR application due to my bad experience with my TR application. They charge R15,000 plus VAT (which after serious investigation is about the going rate for most firms here in SA for this kind of application) and up until now I am very happy with their work. If you want the name I can send it to you on private messaging as I am not sure I am allowed to put it up here.


Thank you for your answer Saartjie. For the moment it seems I'm not allowed to make use of private messaging. But I'm not in a hurry...


----------



## jojo

Saartjie said:


> I am using a lawyer for my PR application due to my bad experience with my TR application. They charge R15,000 plus VAT (which after serious investigation is about the going rate for most firms here in SA for this kind of application) and up until now I am very happy with their work. If you want the name I can send it to you on private messaging as I am not sure I am allowed to put it up here.



Genuine recommendations are fine from regulars

Jo xxx


----------



## Saartjie

karaboss said:


> Thank you for your answer Saartjie. For the moment it seems I'm not allowed to make use of private messaging. But I'm not in a hurry...


The firm I am using is called Eisenberg and Associates. They are located in Cape Town but also has an office here in Joburg. They are excellent and my lawyer, Gary Eisenberg is quite well known for his work in immigration. I can warmly recommend them.


----------



## Saartjie

jojo said:


> Genuine recommendations are fine from regulars
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks Jo


----------



## Vaquero67

Hi all,

I am a U.S. citizen. My South African wife and I were married in the USA in September of 2010. We had three weeks together and she had to return to South Africa while I remained in the USA to take care of personal matters there. After one year and seven months apart, I was finally able to join her in South Africa one week ago, but I am here only on a 90 day visitor's visa. I am attempting to complete the necessary forms in order to apply for a spouse visa so that I can remain here in Johannesburg with her longer than just 90 days. We hope to sell her house and return together to the USA within the next six months to a year, so I only need a temporary residence permit. 

I have printed the BI-1738. So far I have also obtained a medical certificate from a local doctor and a radiological report from a local hospital's radiological department. As I understand the requirements listed on the application form itself, I must also obtain a Police Clearance Certificate from any country in which I have resided for more than one year. I understand that to mean that I will need to obtain one from the U.S. FBI. Therefore, I contacted the U.S. FBI Legal Attache' office at the embassy in Pretoria, and they told me that I must submit the application by mail to their office in the United States and that it can take three (3) to six (6) months to receive the Police Clearance Certificate back from them. If I don't receive the police clearance from the FBI before I have less than 30 days remaining on my current visitor's visa, then I will need to apply for some sort of extension to my visitor's visa so that I can remain here while waiting to receive it and also while waiting for my Temporary Residence Permit application to be processed by Home Affairs, or I will have to leave South Africa in order to avoid breaking their laws. 

My questions are these: Is it possible to obtain an extension to a regular 90 day visitor's visa simply for the purpose of remaining here with a spouse while waiting to receive the documentation necessary to submit along with a Temporary Residence Permit or while waiting for the TR Permit to be processed by Home Affairs? If so, how do I begin the application process for such an extension, as I do not find a form on the Home Affairs website which is specific for applying for an extension? I read several comments about going to a regional Home Affairs office, filling out a form, and getting a "stamp", but then I also read a comment which said there was no such stamp. I understand that we are dealing with Home Affairs here, and it seems the consensus is that it is not unusual for different people to be told different things at different offices or by different HA agents. 

Any information that anyone can offer me that is specific to my situation would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!


----------



## Johanna

Thanks for all the invaluable advice you provide Saartjie!


----------



## Saartjie

Vaquero67 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am a U.S. citizen. My South African wife and I were married in the USA in September of 2010. We had three weeks together and she had to return to South Africa while I remained in the USA to take care of personal matters there. After one year and seven months apart, I was finally able to join her in South Africa one week ago, but I am here only on a 90 day visitor's visa. I am attempting to complete the necessary forms in order to apply for a spouse visa so that I can remain here in Johannesburg with her longer than just 90 days. We hope to sell her house and return together to the USA within the next six months to a year, so I only need a temporary residence permit.
> 
> I have printed the BI-1738. So far I have also obtained a medical certificate from a local doctor and a radiological report from a local hospital's radiological department. As I understand the requirements listed on the application form itself, I must also obtain a Police Clearance Certificate from any country in which I have resided for more than one year. I understand that to mean that I will need to obtain one from the U.S. FBI. Therefore, I contacted the U.S. FBI Legal Attache' office at the embassy in Pretoria, and they told me that I must submit the application by mail to their office in the United States and that it can take three (3) to six (6) months to receive the Police Clearance Certificate back from them. If I don't receive the police clearance from the FBI before I have less than 30 days remaining on my current visitor's visa, then I will need to apply for some sort of extension to my visitor's visa so that I can remain here while waiting to receive it and also while waiting for my Temporary Residence Permit application to be processed by Home Affairs, or I will have to leave South Africa in order to avoid breaking their laws.
> 
> My questions are these: Is it possible to obtain an extension to a regular 90 day visitor's visa simply for the purpose of remaining here with a spouse while waiting to receive the documentation necessary to submit along with a Temporary Residence Permit or while waiting for the TR Permit to be processed by Home Affairs? If so, how do I begin the application process for such an extension, as I do not find a form on the Home Affairs website which is specific for applying for an extension? I read several comments about going to a regional Home Affairs office, filling out a form, and getting a "stamp", but then I also read a comment which said there was no such stamp. I understand that we are dealing with Home Affairs here, and it seems the consensus is that it is not unusual for different people to be told different things at different offices or by different HA agents.
> 
> Any information that anyone can offer me that is specific to my situation would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you!


Hi there, yes you can get one extension on your 90 days visitors permit. You must however have a return ticket to the US to get this extension. If you have a return ticket then take the ticket and go down to Home Affairs (with your passport etc) and apply for an extension, you should be able to do it there and then. An extension will give you a further 90 days. You must do this as soon as possible as it is vital that you have at least 30 days left on your current visa when you apply. 

As for your temporary residence permit, you will be lucky to get this within the six months that you only intend to stay here. 

For Police Clearance, all you need to do is submit your application for clearance to the FBI and for them to provide you with an original receipt showing that you have applied. You can then use this receipt for your application for temporary residency as they will accept this as evidence of application for clearance. Once you receive the actual police clearance you can submit this to Home Affairs afterwards. This will allow you to apply quicker.

Hope the above helps but any questions, let me know.


----------



## Saartjie

Johanna said:


> Thanks for all the invaluable advice you provide Saartjie!


Any time


----------



## Vaquero67

Saartjie said:


> Hi there, yes you can get one extension on your 90 days visitors permit. You must however have a return ticket to the US to get this extension. If you have a return ticket then take the ticket and go down to Home Affairs (with your passport etc) and apply for an extension, you should be able to do it there and then. An extension will give you a further 90 days. You must do this as soon as possible as it is vital that you have at least 30 days left on your current visa when you apply.
> 
> As for your temporary residence permit, you will be lucky to get this within the six months that you only intend to stay here.
> 
> For Police Clearance, all you need to do is submit your application for clearance to the FBI and for them to provide you with an original receipt showing that you have applied. You can then use this receipt for your application for temporary residency as they will accept this as evidence of application for clearance. Once you receive the actual police clearance you can submit this to Home Affairs afterwards. This will allow you to apply quicker.
> 
> Hope the above helps but any questions, let me know.


Thank you Saartjie.

I do have a return ticket to the U.S., but it is for 88 days after my arrival, which means near the end of July. Of course, everything is electronic these days, so it is not an actual paper ticket; I can only print an actual boarding pass within 24 hours of my departure date. So, what I actually have is the email confirmation I received which gives the details of both my arrival and departure flights. If I print that and take it, do you think that will be sufficient? I trust that you are not saying that I must change my departure date with the airline prior to going to Home Affairs to request the 90 day extension, as if my extension is denied, then I will have wasted a large sum of money changing my return flight and will then have pay again in order to change it back to my original departure date?

It sounds like you are telling me that even if I am granted a 90 day extension and allowed to stay a total of 180 days, I will still have to leave South Africa and wait until my Temporary Residence Permit is approved before being allowed to return to South Africa. Is that correct? My wife was told that residents of Europe and the USA can leave for forty (40) days and are then allowed to return for another 90 days. However, I do not know how reliable that information is. Do you know if it is true?

I will be sending my application for a Police Clearance to the FBI tomorrow. I will probably send it via the quickest method possible. Do you know if the FBI will send me an original receipt showing that I have applied, or will I have to specifically request a receipt when I send the application? Do you know if an email from them saying they have received my application will suffice for Home Affairs? An email would certainly allow me to apply more quickly with Home Affairs, as standard mail service from the USA takes about two weeks.

Thanks


----------



## Saartjie

Vaquero67 said:


> Thank you Saartjie.
> 
> I do have a return ticket to the U.S., but it is for 88 days after my arrival, which means near the end of July. Of course, everything is electronic these days, so it is not an actual paper ticket; I can only print an actual boarding pass within 24 hours of my departure date. So, what I actually have is the email confirmation I received which gives the details of both my arrival and departure flights. If I print that and take it, do you think that will be sufficient? I trust that you are not saying that I must change my departure date with the airline prior to going to Home Affairs to request the 90 day extension, as if my extension is denied, then I will have wasted a large sum of money changing my return flight and will then have pay again in order to change it back to my original departure date?
> 
> It sounds like you are telling me that even if I am granted a 90 day extension and allowed to stay a total of 180 days, I will still have to leave South Africa and wait until my Temporary Residence Permit is approved before being allowed to return to South Africa. Is that correct? My wife was told that residents of Europe and the USA can leave for forty (40) days and are then allowed to return for another 90 days. However, I do not know how reliable that information is. Do you know if it is true?
> 
> I will be sending my application for a Police Clearance to the FBI tomorrow. I will probably send it via the quickest method possible. Do you know if the FBI will send me an original receipt showing that I have applied, or will I have to specifically request a receipt when I send the application? Do you know if an email from them saying they have received my application will suffice for Home Affairs? An email would certainly allow me to apply more quickly with Home Affairs, as standard mail service from the USA takes about two weeks.
> 
> Thanks


In relation to your return ticket, as you say that it is for 88 days after your arrival, it would still be valid if you go and apply for an extension within the time prescribed (that is when you have at least 30 days left on your permit). As such, you should not need to change your flight prior to knowing if you get an extension (these are very seldom refused as far as I am aware). If you want to be super prepared I guess it would be an advantage is you can provide proof that you are allowed to change the date on your ticket upon request (terms and conditions on airlines website should suffice). You can then show this and explain that you want to stay in SA for a further 90 days and once you are granted your extension you can then change your flight details to allow you to fly home when your extension expires. A print out should suffice as there are hardly any 'hard-copy' tickets these days. Your print out should show a booking reference so if they would want to check it (which they wont) then the airline will be able to confirm that you are indeed booked on that particular flight.

In relation to leaving SA whilst awaiting your Temporary Residency. No there is no need to do this. What you should do is apply for your Temporary Residency as soon as you have received your extension. At the same time you should ask Home Affairs for a Form 20 (at least I think it is still called that) which Home Affairs should sign and stamp for you. This form allows you to remain in SA whilst awaiting the outcome of your permit application. It will usually stipulate that whilst waiting for the permit, you must not leave the Province in which you applied. Please note, however, that the law is about to change in this regard, no one knows when this is but it will definitely happen. When the new Amended Immigration Bill becomes law, any spouse of an SA citizen who wishes to change their existing permit to a TR or a PR must leave SA and return to their home country and apply from there. As such, it is vital that you get your application in asap as if the application is in and the new law comes into force then your application will still be valid under the current law. 

With regards to the leaving for 40 days and then get another 90 days, this totally depends upon where you enter the country. I have heard of people taking the car and driving to Swaziland or Lesotho and staying there for a couple of days and then returning to SA and given another 90 days. Others have done the same and just been provided with a 7 day permit. I have myself ( a few years ago) entered SA twice, flying from the UK, within a period of less than three months and both times I was given 90 days, no questions asked.

In relation to your police clearance. I have no knowledge about the FBI's procedures at all. I would suggest that you specifically ask for a receipt. Actually, speak to them and explain what you need as I am sure others have asked for the same thing so the FBI should know what type of receipts they have issued in the past which has been accepted. When I applied for my permit, I was still awaiting the police clearance from the SA Police (I had lived here for a year then). All I needed was a copy of my application for the clearance, this was not an original and it was accepted.

If I have missed something, please feel free to ask further questions.


----------



## Vaquero67

Saartjie said:


> In relation to your return ticket, as you say that it is for 88 days after your arrival, it would still be valid if you go and apply for an extension within the time prescribed (that is when you have at least 30 days left on your permit). As such, you should not need to change your flight prior to knowing if you get an extension (these are very seldom refused as far as I am aware). If you want to be super prepared I guess it would be an advantage is you can provide proof that you are allowed to change the date on your ticket upon request (terms and conditions on airlines website should suffice). You can then show this and explain that you want to stay in SA for a further 90 days and once you are granted your extension you can then change your flight details to allow you to fly home when your extension expires. A print out should suffice as there are hardly any 'hard-copy' tickets these days. Your print out should show a booking reference so if they would want to check it (which they wont) then the airline will be able to confirm that you are indeed booked on that particular flight.
> 
> In relation to leaving SA whilst awaiting your Temporary Residency. No there is no need to do this. What you should do is apply for your Temporary Residency as soon as you have received your extension. At the same time you should ask Home Affairs for a Form 20 (at least I think it is still called that) which Home Affairs should sign and stamp for you. This form allows you to remain in SA whilst awaiting the outcome of your permit application. It will usually stipulate that whilst waiting for the permit, you must not leave the Province in which you applied. Please note, however, that the law is about to change in this regard, no one knows when this is but it will definitely happen. When the new Amended Immigration Bill becomes law, any spouse of an SA citizen who wishes to change their existing permit to a TR or a PR must leave SA and return to their home country and apply from there. As such, it is vital that you get your application in asap as if the application is in and the new law comes into force then your application will still be valid under the current law.
> 
> With regards to the leaving for 40 days and then get another 90 days, this totally depends upon where you enter the country. I have heard of people taking the car and driving to Swaziland or Lesotho and staying there for a couple of days and then returning to SA and given another 90 days. Others have done the same and just been provided with a 7 day permit. I have myself ( a few years ago) entered SA twice, flying from the UK, within a period of less than three months and both times I was given 90 days, no questions asked.
> 
> In relation to your police clearance. I have no knowledge about the FBI's procedures at all. I would suggest that you specifically ask for a receipt. Actually, speak to them and explain what you need as I am sure others have asked for the same thing so the FBI should know what type of receipts they have issued in the past which has been accepted. When I applied for my permit, I was still awaiting the police clearance from the SA Police (I had lived here for a year then). All I needed was a copy of my application for the clearance, this was not an original and it was accepted.
> 
> If I have missed something, please feel free to ask further questions.


Hi Saartjie,

Well, we have been to Home Affairs and obtained the form BI-1739. The lady at the information counter also gave us a small slip of paper with the form. The slip of paper says the following:

EXTENSION OF A VISITOR'S PERMIT FEE - R 425-00
The following is required in terms of sec 11 and regulation 9(2)
Complete BI-1739
Proof of sufficient funds (3 months original bank statements)
Proof of valid return air ticket or payment of a deposit
The payment of a deposit is to be refunded after the final departure of the applicant or after a permit for permanent residence has been issued to the applicant.
Apply 30 days before current permit expires. If not, reason.
If there is a condition on the visa, the application can be refused or referred.
Reason for extension in the country.


My wife thinks the part about "Proof of sufficient funds" means that she must provide 3 months of her original bank statements, but I'm thinking that they mean that I must provide mine. I did not bring mine with me, but I can access mine online and print them. What are your thoughts on this, please?

I've also printed the original email from my airline confirming my flight and providing all of my flight information, so I will not need to pay a deposit.

We plan to apply next week, so I will be applying more than 60 days prior to my currently scheduled departure.

The lady at the information counter also mentioned something to my wife about her needing to provide a letter stating something, but we were being rushed through there so quickly that I did not catch what the lady told me wife, and now my wife does not remember exactly what the lady said the letter needs to state. Do you have any idea what the letter needs to state? I'm wondering if it could be simply a letter stating that my wife is willing to support me while I'm in the country, but it may be something totally different. 

Also, I have sent my application for a Police Clearance Certificate to the U.S. FBI, and I have a FedEx receipt with tracking number. I enclosed a letter in my application package requesting that they send me a receipt via email or regular mail which states they've received my application. I am planning to attempt contacting them to inquire as to the current length of the processing times of such applications. Do you think Home Affairs will accept the FedEx receipt showing I've sent an application to the FBI, or should I wait to get something back from the FBI before submitting my form BI-1738 for TRP? I suppose I could ask the Home Affairs agent when we go to submit the form BI-1739, but I keep hearing about how three different agents will give three different answers to the same question, so I'm inclined to just wait until I have everything thing that I need before submitting the application. I know this means waiting longer before submitting. I really don't know what the best route is at this time. I know I am not alone in my frustration with the inefficiency of the entire Home Affairs system. I will say, though, that I found the Johannesburg CBD office a bit more organized than the Germiston office. We got in the queue outside the front door at 1:30pm and was in and out of the building with our form in hand by 2:30pm. Security actually came outside and organized the one line into two lines in order to make things more efficient for everyone. Then the same gentleman was also helpful in answering some questions for us as we were leaving. I hope our next visit is at least that pleasant.

Thank your for all the helpful information you provide, Saartjie. I hope that someday I can also be as helpful to others regarding these matters.


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## Saartjie

Vaquero67 said:


> Hi Saartjie,
> 
> Well, we have been to Home Affairs and obtained the form BI-1739. The lady at the information counter also gave us a small slip of paper with the form. The slip of paper says the following:
> 
> EXTENSION OF A VISITOR'S PERMIT FEE - R 425-00
> The following is required in terms of sec 11 and regulation 9(2)
> Complete BI-1739
> Proof of sufficient funds (3 months original bank statements)
> Proof of valid return air ticket or payment of a deposit
> The payment of a deposit is to be refunded after the final departure of the applicant or after a permit for permanent residence has been issued to the applicant.
> Apply 30 days before current permit expires. If not, reason.
> If there is a condition on the visa, the application can be refused or referred.
> Reason for extension in the country.
> 
> 
> My wife thinks the part about "Proof of sufficient funds" means that she must provide 3 months of her original bank statements, but I'm thinking that they mean that I must provide mine. I did not bring mine with me, but I can access mine online and print them. What are your thoughts on this, please?
> 
> I've also printed the original email from my airline confirming my flight and providing all of my flight information, so I will not need to pay a deposit.
> 
> We plan to apply next week, so I will be applying more than 60 days prior to my currently scheduled departure.
> 
> The lady at the information counter also mentioned something to my wife about her needing to provide a letter stating something, but we were being rushed through there so quickly that I did not catch what the lady told me wife, and now my wife does not remember exactly what the lady said the letter needs to state. Do you have any idea what the letter needs to state? I'm wondering if it could be simply a letter stating that my wife is willing to support me while I'm in the country, but it may be something totally different.
> 
> Also, I have sent my application for a Police Clearance Certificate to the U.S. FBI, and I have a FedEx receipt with tracking number. I enclosed a letter in my application package requesting that they send me a receipt via email or regular mail which states they've received my application. I am planning to attempt contacting them to inquire as to the current length of the processing times of such applications. Do you think Home Affairs will accept the FedEx receipt showing I've sent an application to the FBI, or should I wait to get something back from the FBI before submitting my form BI-1738 for TRP? I suppose I could ask the Home Affairs agent when we go to submit the form BI-1739, but I keep hearing about how three different agents will give three different answers to the same question, so I'm inclined to just wait until I have everything thing that I need before submitting the application. I know this means waiting longer before submitting. I really don't know what the best route is at this time. I know I am not alone in my frustration with the inefficiency of the entire Home Affairs system. I will say, though, that I found the Johannesburg CBD office a bit more organized than the Germiston office. We got in the queue outside the front door at 1:30pm and was in and out of the building with our form in hand by 2:30pm. Security actually came outside and organized the one line into two lines in order to make things more efficient for everyone. Then the same gentleman was also helpful in answering some questions for us as we were leaving. I hope our next visit is at least that pleasant.
> 
> Thank your for all the helpful information you provide, Saartjie. I hope that someday I can also be as helpful to others regarding these matters.


Hi there,

Glad to hear that you had a somewhat good experience at HA!!

Will try to deal with your questions in turn:-

1. Proof of Sufficient Funds - In practice I would say this relates to you and your funds. As a visitor you are here on your own merit and as such it would be you that need to finance your stay. Saying that, do you have access to your bank account (online), if so then I suggest you print off statements. However to be on the safe side, I would also get bank statements from your wife (you can never have too much information). If they don't need it then they will say so.

2. The letter from your wife - Is this in relation to your visitors permit or your TR? My husband has provided a letter for all my applications saying that he will support me financially. It is literally a two line letter addressed to HA.

3. Fed-Ex receipt - I am not sure if a receipt from them will be enough. I think it is better to get something from the FBI. If HA is not happy with the Fed-Ex receipt then they will refuse your application as their stance is not to accept incomplete applications. So it will be a waste of your time. So my advise is to wait for FBI confirmation.

Hope the above helps.


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## matflat

Hello Everyone,

It's been a few months since I last posted, and thought it'd be nice to provide an update. As of last week I now have my revised temporary residency spousal visa with work permit all sorted. The company I went to work for were ridiculously understanding of the situation as it happens consistently. They hired an immigration lawyer to resolve everything and four months later I am now all sorted. The only advice I can give after this long a drawn out saga is to say that the lawyers were awesome, no problems and they did all the chasing. If you can afford it or your company does this then take the offer up as it was a huge stress having to do this on my own. I did hear that the offices in Cape Town are better at processing the visa;s as they have a new system but I could be wrong.

So now I am living and working in South Africa and my family is all settled. Best move ever. South Africa is a great country, yes it has issues, as does any country, but from a lifestyle point of view it is amazing. More space, better weather, nicer people, the job is awesome - though the drive to Jo'Burg CBD everyday is both terrifying and exhilarating - taxi drivers are the 8th wonder of the world.

Cheers,
Mat.


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## JohnPier

All this stuff depends on Home Affairs just sorting themselves out! I'm seeing all the troubles I had all over this forum.

Does anyone know how long it takes for permits to come along now? My friends in the UK are applying soon.


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## Saartjie

JohnPier said:


> All this stuff depends on Home Affairs just sorting themselves out! I'm seeing all the troubles I had all over this forum.
> 
> Does anyone know how long it takes for permits to come along now? My friends in the UK are applying soon.


Depends what permit you want and where you apply. I applied for my PR in Cape Town 30 November 2011 and I am still waiting... I applied for a new TR in July as I got a new job so needed a new endorsement on my Spousal and that was also in Cape Town and that came through in 60 days. According to my lawyers, the PR's takes extra long now because each application has to be personally signed off by a Minister (can't remember who) and as he is never in the office, no applications are being signed off. Not sure how true that is but it would explain the wait I guess.


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## Damiana

I submitted my application for a business endorsement to a pre-existing spousal permit yesterday. The application was accepted by a Home Affairs official who seemed very competent and to know what she was doing so I assume in theory that the process I’ve followed is correct, even though I don’t yet know if the application has been successful.

The key point I want to make is that immigration consultants will tell you that the application for work/ business endorsements to existing spousal permits is much more complicated than it is – and quote cR7000 for doing the application for you. I chose to spend 2 hours in the Home Affairs queue and managed to submit my application no problem.

I’d been told by two immigration firms (including Intergate) that despite the fact I’d already got my spousal permit (in September from the SA Consulate in London – very efficient) I would have to re-do the entire temporary residence permit application – so all the hassle of re-submitting chest x-ray, criminal record check, etc. – and this time include the request for the business endorsement (in my case to work as a sole proprietor). When I pressed the immigration firms on this they admitted that I ‘may have a chance’ of getting a business endorsement without re-doing the temporary resident permit application.

So yesterday, I took to the Home Affairs office in Cape Town the following documents:
•	Business plan for sole proprietor business (one page outlining my skills and the type of work I would seek to do as a consultant)
•	Curriculum vitae
•	SARS registration form (very easy to get – just pop into your nearest SARS office to register as a SA taxpayer)
•	Letter of endorsement from prospective client (I don’t think I needed this but thought it might be helpful)
•	Certified copy of my passport
•	Certified copy of relative’s permit in my passport
•	Certified copy of husband’s ID book
•	Certified copy of marriage certificate
•	Letter of motivation from husband (again, I don’t think I needed this but I wanted to prove we were still married!)

When I told the official what I wanted to do she asked if I had my ‘business papers’ (yes, see 1-3 above) and if I’d filled out the form, at which point my heart sank. Then she came back with the form and it was the simplest 3-page thing. It’s BI-1740 Form 9 ‘Application for a change of condition on existing permit’. You just fill in your details and say what condition you want to change – so in my case that I wanted to get a business endorsement so that I could work – and why. It took me 3 minutes to complete and then the official accepted my application.

So I feel quite cross with the big immigration consultants who only told me half the story in order to try to get my business. I’d be really wary of this. These processes aren’t half as complicated as you’ll be told. They may be a bit fiddly and spending two hours at Home Affairs isn’t a whole load of fun, but the irony is, if I’d done this through an immigration firm they’d have not only left me R7000 poorer but also caused me a whole load of extra hassle by telling me to go and get new chest x-rays, medical certificates, etc. that it turned out I didn’t need.

However, one thing I would emphasise is that my spousal permit is only two months old. If it had been older than 6 months I don’t know whether they would have required a whole re-submission of the temporary resident permit application. But you can find that out easily enough by ringing or visiting Home Affairs.

The fact of the matter is though that although we have to seek permission to work, spouses in SA are treated as if they have the right to work (hence why we don’t have to submit all the endless documentation that other work/ business visa applicants require), so the sense I get is that the process is on our side.

Two other things that I’d like to correct that I’ve seen on various blogs:

-	You CAN get a business endorsement on a relative’s permit, as mine is called a relative’s permit not a spouse’s permit even though in the small print beneath it says it’s for the purpose of living with my spouse.

-	You CAN get a business endorsement to work as a sole proprietor, and you do NOT have to register your business. You just have to register with SARS, as you will pay tax as an individual. I’ve been told though that this route is harder to go if you’re applying overseas – e.g. that the London consulate require you to be a PTY – but this could be more inaccurate advice; I don’t know because I applied in Cape Town.

I’m posting this in the hope that I will de-mystify the process for other spouses/ life partners out there, save you some money and encourage you to be wary of the ‘information’ you will receive from immigration firms.


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## JohnPier

I agree with a lot here, but just one thing - yes, it's a relative's permit, but it IS a spousal permit which is a type of relative's permit. And you can't open a business on a relative's permit if it's just because your father is a permanent resident. It's specifically because your spouse is South African that you are given that right. All these and other points I worried about are all in the immigration booklet I got on Immigrationsouthafrica.org. My main concern usually is how long the permit takes, because we all need to plan our lives.


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## RSA_Newbie

But John that's just it, YOU DON'T get to start a business here JUST because you are married to a citizen. As I've been explained to time and again, the only "exemption" you get as the spouse of a citizen is that employers do not have to follow the usual requirements they must meet to hire a foreigner. So they don't have to advertise the opening for a certain period of time after unsuccessfully finding a citizen and they don't have to prove to the government they can't find a qualified citizen or permanent resident to hire you. It's just everyone is afraid of how long it will take to get the permit. I just had an interview Friday with a company who said they have been waiting 6 months for someone they offered a job to to get their permit. They said that wouldn't stop them from offering me a job if all went well with my other interviews but I could tell they were apprehensive about getting into the same situation again.

They DO NOT give you an exemption from the business permit requirements that you invest 2.5 million rand in a business and employ five citizens to qualify for a business permit endorsement on your spousal visa....at least that's what I've been told over and over these past 17 months whenever I've asked if there is any permit I can get that will allow me to work for myself. I'm a certified experience personal trainer and I've been told over and over there is not permit to allow me to work as an independent trainer I must word for a gym and be offered an employment contract or no deal but they don't pay much and you have to work 40 hours a week for them and part of the contract is you agree not to train anywhere else.

I can't support my spouse on 2500 or 3000 rand a month when as an MBA graduate I should be able to land a job making upwards of 25-30K a month or more. 

I know as little as six years ago they allow spouses of citizen immediate permanent residence and working rights when they entered the country. I have no idea why they changed that, it's how it should be!


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## Damiana

JohnPier, yes sorry I should have made clear that point, but I'd seen posts that said you couldn't get a business endorsement on a permit that said 'Relatives Permit' even it was for a spouse - but Home Affairs have accepted my application with a Relatives Permit (for a spouse).

RSA Newbie, I think you've been given wrong information. Whoever I've spoken to has said that it's relatively straightforward for a spouse to set up as a sole proprietor with a business endorsement - and I'm not sure why Home Affairs would have accepted my application if it wasn't possible. Perhaps the officials you spoke to were confused and telling you about the process for work endorsement rather than business endorsement.


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## concord

*Damiana*, that would be really great to know the outcome of your application. I checked the Immigration act from 2002 and it clearly states that "The holder of a relative’s permit may not conduct work." (it's in section 18).
I mean I dont argue and I think it's so great your application was accepted but I believe that your case is just an exception. There were many people on this and other forum who had relative's permit and had to submit a completely new application to get a work or business endorsement.So I dont know what to believe now...
But anyway I wish you a good luck!!!!


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## Damiana

The quote from the Immigration Act would still be consistent though, Concord - you cannot work with just a Relatives Permit. It a) has to be for a spouse/ life partner, and b) have a specific business/ work endorsement on it.
I'm not sure why BI-1740 Form 9 would exist if the course of action I've followed wasn't an officially approved one?
Also, as I said it may be that my application was accepted because my relatives permit was less than 6 months old which might not have been the case with those people who had to re-do an entire application.
Anyhow, I don't want to be too smug because I haven't received the endorsement yet, so I'll keep you posted!


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## RSA_Newbie

That's the problem with Home Affairs, it appears the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing and visa versa. No one give you a consistent answer and the website doesn't go into detail much about all the conditions applying to a spouse of a citizen who wants to work or conducts business on their own. If there are exceptions to what their site says, its only privy to a few individuals who are discriminating about who they share it with. Perhaps you were luck but it will be nice to find out the result. Let's see how long it take for you to get a reply. Start calling them on day 31 from the date on your receipt because it is YOUR responsibility to follow up, they WILL NOT call you.


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## Angel Sue

Hi all

I couldn't help but see this discussion regarding Spousal visa and work permit. Damiana, wow, you've certainly been put through alot. I can't fathom that you have been charged R7000 for basically the second easiest application one can compile. The first of course would be the extension of a visitor's permit. I work for an immigration firm and that is shocking!

Secondly, the firm that told you that new medicals are needed is wrong. You can submit copies of your medical, radiological and police clearance WITH a declaration to confirm that originals were previously submitted. Regulation 7 (5) clearly states that if documentation is already in the possession of the department, you do not have to get new ones again. I WOULD OF COURSE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU MAKE COPIES (FOR YOURSELF) OF EVERYTHING YOU HAND IN AT HOME AFFAIRS FOR FUTURE USE.

Thirdly, a Relative's permit can cover anything from Spouses to minor children. However, you can only apply for an endorsement to work, study or conduct own business as a sole proprietor based on a South African spouse. NOT on a parent or minor child who is a SA citizen or permanent residence holder. You spoke about the Immigration Act of 2002. Well, there is an amendment Act of 2004 where it clearly states that a "Visitor's permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or PR holder and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in Sections 13 to 22. That is why they call this a Section 11 (6) permit. In the Act of 2002 (under Section 11), there is no 6th point, however, the 6th point has been added in the Amendment Act of 2004. I hope I put this so you guys can understand

Fourthly, yes, you have to register for income tax at SARS as a sole proprietor as you will be issuing invoices. 

I would like to say that there are immigration firms who would of course try and rip you off and it is simply put, WRONG!! It's firms like that who gives other firms bad names, which is unfair. Of course Home Affairs sometimes have their moments where they not really helpful or they give you inconsistent information, but we have to live with it. Sometimes an internal directive from Pretoria will be handed out and the regional branches must simply comply. It's a never-ending battle if they are in contravention of their own Act and laws, but it's a battle that will go on and on and on.


Fifthly, whenever something changed on your permit whether you change employers, schools, from normal relative's to an authorization, it's considered as a Change of Conditions / Status. For this the form BI-1740 is needed. It cannot be a renewal as a renewal means NOTHING changed since obtaining your current permit.

By the way, I agree with RSA_Newbie, Home Affairs will NOT call you with updates. It is your responsibility to follow up on your own application. Normally you would receive 2 text messages from home affairs when the application has been received and when it was finalized. So please ensure that you give them a valid mobile number on your application form. Also, the SA spouse basically waives all the long procedures which will normally happen if you apply for a work permit or business permit. They waive the advertisement, SAQA and salary benchmarking report, they waive the required R2.5 million, 5 employees, etc.

I sincerely hope this information at least shed some clarity on some of the issues that were raised here. And please remember that Cape Town Home Affairs requires an additional copy of the application you're submitting at their offices. So instead of ONE set of papers, you'll have to hand in TWO sets of papers.

Have a lovely day all.

Sue


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## the mage

have you tried they seem to have a handle on the visa thing.


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## concord

Angel Sue said:


> Thirdly, a Relative's permit can cover anything from Spouses to minor children. However, you can only apply for an endorsement to work, study or conduct own business as a sole proprietor based on a South African spouse. NOT on a parent or minor child who is a SA citizen or permanent residence holder. You spoke about the Immigration Act of 2002. Well, there is an amendment Act of 2004 where it clearly states that a "Visitor's permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or PR holder and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in Sections 13 to 22. That is why they call this a Section 11 (6) permit. In the Act of 2002 (under Section 11), there is no 6th point, however, the 6th point has been added in the Amendment Act of 2004. I hope I put this so you guys can understand


 *Angel Sue*, may I ask you some additional questions since you say you work in an immigration agency? I didn't completely understood everything 

You say that a visitor's permit is the same thing as a spousal permit (since a spousal permit is regulated by section 11(6) too)? So if you get a visitor's permit you're allowed to work, study etc. 

Here 's the reason I ask. Lots of participants on this forum and I specifically (married to a SA citizen) applied for a permit 11(6) (I specified it in my application) but of course got relative's permits (section 18 if I'm not mistaken). Why??? Because I didnt have a job offer and didn't need a work endorsement (basically you say that if I'm a spouse of SA citizen but want to work I dont fall inti category of section 11 so they issue a section 11(6) permit? And if I dont want to work I fall into a relative's permit category?)

So confusing...


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## Damiana

Angel Sue, very helpful post. 

Two things. You say:
"the firm that told you that new medicals are needed is wrong. You can submit copies of your medical, radiological and police clearance WITH a declaration to confirm that originals were previously submitted."

But the point is Home Affairs did not request any of these documents (copies or originals) with my change of condition application for the business endorsement, as form BI-1740 doesn't require them, and i wasn't resubmitting a whole temporary residence permit application. The immigration firms had said that these documents would be required as part of a complete resubmission of the application for a spouse's visa (trp) with business endorsement.

Also, when I submitted my application the official did not request two copies of everything, although she had been requiring this of everybody in front of me in the queue.


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## 2fargone

I was told I didn't have to submit new Police Clearance, TB, and Medical Forms if my application was less then 6 months old.


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## Saartjie

Poopsie23 said:


> I was told I didn't have to submit new Police Clearance, TB, and Medical Forms if my application was less then 6 months old.


For my last TR application I did not have to submit any of these although the ones that I had were about 9 months old. This was because I had already submitted them with my previous application AND I had not left SA since my previous application. This was accepted by HA.


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## concord

Saartjie said:


> For my last TR application I did not have to submit any of these although the ones that I had were about 9 months old. This was because I had already submitted them with my previous application AND I had not left SA since my previous application. This was accepted by HA.


 *Saartjie*, you say that you didn't have to submit any police clearance. So basically even if you stayed in SA longer than a year you dont have to apply for a police clearance report from SA police either. I guess HA check that themselves? (I mean to issue you another permit HA must be sure you didn't commit any crime in SA ) What do you think?

P.S. That rule usually applies to all countries where one immigrates. Before they issue a permit they ask one for police clearance reports from all the countries where that person lives longer than 12 months.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> *Saartjie*, you say that you didn't have to submit any police clearance. So basically even if you stayed in SA longer than a year you dont have to apply for a police clearance report from SA police either. I guess HA check that themselves? (I mean to issue you another permit HA must be sure you didn't commit any crime in SA ) What do you think?
> 
> P.S. That rule usually applies to all countries where one immigrates. Before they issue a permit they ask one for police clearance reports from all the countries where that person lives longer than 12 months.


I am not sure how it works and I think if you walked into another HA office they might have a different answer. In any event, when I did my PR application I had to give my finger prints which they were using to check my criminal record in SA, this was on top of my police clearance certificate for SA which was then still within the 6 months. All I know is that since my application in November 2011 (I have done two applications since) I have not had to provide any new paperwork at all (apart from the actual application form). As my new TR was granted it appears to be no problem with this.


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## Angel Sue

concord said:


> *Angel Sue*, may I ask you some additional questions since you say you work in an immigration agency? I didn't completely understood everything
> 
> You say that a visitor's permit is the same thing as a spousal permit (since a spousal permit is regulated by section 11(6) too)? So if you get a visitor's permit you're allowed to work, study etc.
> 
> Here 's the reason I ask. Lots of participants on this forum and I specifically (married to a SA citizen) applied for a permit 11(6) (I specified it in my application) but of course got relative's permits (section 18 if I'm not mistaken). Why??? Because I didnt have a job offer and didn't need a work endorsement (basically you say that if I'm a spouse of SA citizen but want to work I dont fall inti category of section 11 so they issue a section 11(6) permit? And if I dont want to work I fall into a relative's permit category?)
> 
> So confusing...


Hello.

A Section 18 is just a normal Relative's permit and you are not allowed to do any activity on this permit. You're basically in SA just because of your SA spouse / family member. The Section 11 (6) is a long-term visitor's permit which authorizes you to do the activity. And although I don't completely understand why it falls under Section 11 and not 18, I work according to the law. A few years ago, a home affairs official DID indeed say that it should, strictly speaking, read Relative's permit with authorization to work. I know it's confusing. If you don't have proof of the activity that you want to do, you WILL be issued with a normal Section 18. For instance, if you want to work on your Relative's permit (only with the SA spouse), there must be an offer of employment, if you want to study, there must be an acceptance letter from the university / college. 

The problem is that each regional office has different procedures, which should not be. Phalaborwa for instance WANTS new medicals and radiologicals. So does Stellenbosch. Cape Town just wants copies with a declaration. Some of these requests are completely contradictory to the immigration law.


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## Jujube

*Angel Sue*, thank you very much for providing some great answers to this forum.

I was wondering if you ever dealt with the case of someone wanting to have both a work permit (normal employer contract) & being able to do some freelance work.

See I currently have a relative's permit with work endorsement and I'd like to be able to do some work on the side...but I'm not sure if I can have both 'endorsements' in one visa?

Many thanks!


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## Angel Sue

Jujube said:


> *Angel Sue*, thank you very much for providing some great answers to this forum.
> 
> I was wondering if you ever dealt with the case of someone wanting to have both a work permit (normal employer contract) & being able to do some freelance work.
> 
> See I currently have a relative's permit with work endorsement and I'd like to be able to do some work on the side...but I'm not sure if I can have both 'endorsements' in one visa?
> 
> Many thanks!


Hi Jujube

It's either or. You cannot have two at the same dear.


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## concord

Saartjie said:


> In any event, when I did my PR application I had to give my finger prints which they were using to check my criminal record in SA, this was on top of my police clearance certificate for SA which was then still within the 6 months. All I know is that since my application in November 2011 (I have done two applications since) I have not had to provide any new paperwork at all (apart from the actual application form). As my new TR was granted it appears to be no problem with this.


 So looks like you have to submit the police clearance from SA too since you did it. And just got excited thinking I wont have to apply for 2 reports (from my home country and SA) next time when I'll apply for my permit renewal :confused2:


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## concord

Angel Sue said:


> A Section 18 is just a normal Relative's permit and you are not allowed to do any activity on this permit. You're basically in SA just because of your SA spouse / family member. The Section 11 (6) is a long-term visitor's permit which authorizes you to do the activity. And although I don't completely understand why it falls under Section 11 and not 18, I work according to the law. A few years ago, a home affairs official DID indeed say that it should, strictly speaking, read Relative's permit with authorization to work. I know it's confusing. If you don't have proof of the activity that you want to do, you WILL be issued with a normal Section 18. For instance, if you want to work on your Relative's permit (only with the SA spouse), there must be an offer of employment, if you want to study, there must be an acceptance letter from the university / college.


 Thank you very much for your reply. It is very confusing... I already understood that if you don't have a proof that you'll work/study (a job offer etc.) they won't issue a section 11 permit. But then you say " if you want to work on your Relative's permit" but the thing is a Relative's permit can't be endorsed so I can't work on my Relative's permit (according to the Act). I'll have to chande my Relative's permit for a section 11 permit. That is confusing...


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> So looks like you have to submit the police clearance from SA too since you did it. And just got excited thinking I wont have to apply for 2 reports (from my home country and SA) next time when I'll apply for my permit renewal :confused2:


For the PR at least, the benefit is that you do not actually have to make the application yourself. They did this at HA when I submitted my application. The guy who assessed my application at the counter filled in the form which I signed and I then went downstairs and gave my finger prints and that was it. No cost no hassle and most importantly no tedious visit to a police station.


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## Angel Sue

concord said:


> So looks like you have to submit the police clearance from SA too since you did it. And just got excited thinking I wont have to apply for 2 reports (from my home country and SA) next time when I'll apply for my permit renewal :confused2:


You do not have to submit a SA police clearance again, if you submitted it previously.
Add copies of it + a declaration confirming the original was submitted at the applicable Home Affairs in (year date).


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## concord

*Saartjie*, thank you for the info.



Angel Sue said:


> You do not have to submit a SA police clearance again, if you submitted it previously.
> Add copies of it + a declaration confirming the original was submitted at the applicable Home Affairs in (year date).


 *Angel Sue*, when I applied for my relative's permit of course I didnt submit a police clearance report from SA since I just came to the country. So do you say I'll have to do that when I renew my permit? So why Saartjie didnt have to that (I mean she didnt have to go to police to apply but did it in HA like she said in her post)? Because she applied for a PR not a TR?


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## 2fargone

concord said:


> *Saartjie*, thank you for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> *Angel Sue*, when I applied for my relative's permit of course I didnt submit a police clearance report from SA since I just came to the country. So do you say I'll have to do that when I renew my permit? So why Saartjie didnt have to that (I mean she didnt have to go to police to apply but did it in HA like she said in her post)? Because she applied for a PR not a TR?


Concord I have never had to submit a police clearance from S.A. I think you said you are going to apply in Cape Town? They have never asked me about S.A. only the U.S.A.


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## concord

Poopsie23 said:


> Concord I have never had to submit a police clearance from S.A. I think you said you are going to apply in Cape Town? They have never asked me about S.A. only the U.S.A.


 You see that's why it's sooo confusing! Angel Sue (who works in an immigration agency) said in his/her post that I "don't have to submit a police clearance from SA if I did it previously".
Yes, I'll apply in Cape Town so I'll hope I won't have to do that!

I just know that if you apply for a residency in any country they always ask for a police clearance reports from all the countries where you've lived for over 12 months. But I guess it's not the case coz I am in SA so people from HA can check it themselves.


----------



## Saartjie

concord said:


> You see that's why it's sooo confusing! Angel Sue (who works in an immigration agency) said in his/her post that I "don't have to submit a police clearance from SA if I did it previously".
> Yes, I'll apply in Cape Town so I'll hope I won't have to do that!
> 
> I just know that if you apply for a residency in any country they always ask for a police clearance reports from all the countries where you've lived for over 12 months. But I guess it's not the case coz I am in SA so people from HA can check it themselves.


Hi, just to clarify. When I applied for my very first TR I did not have to supply SA Police Clearance as I had just arrived into the country. For my subsequent TR I had to supply SA Police Clearance. However for my following application I did not need to supply because I had not left the country since applying for the initial one. When I applied for my PR they accepted my 'old' police clearance but I was still required to give my finger prints so that a new application could be made by HA (I think they always do this for PR applications). I have applied for a further TR after my PR and I could then still rely on my 'old' SA Police Clearance.


----------



## Danielle 1

*Applying for visa change without leaving the country*

Hi All,
I am new to this expat forum but this thread seemed to be a helpful starting point for my questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have lived in South Africa for the last 6 years under a student visa. My student visa is expiring at the end of this year (in one month). I have recently graduated from the University of KwaZulu-Natal with my Masters in Economic History and Development Studies. My hope was to apply my academic learning within the context in which it was obtained. However, a formal work visa does not seem obtainable. I do not feel that I qualify for the Exceptional Skill Visa, yet the General Work Visa appears limited. I also have a partner in South Africa. We have been together for 2 plus years, and lived together for the last year. I do not have the money to leave the country (in order to apply for a visa from my home soil). Does anyone know if it is possible to apply for either a work visa or a spousal visa without leaving the country? And whether there are any recommendations as to which visa I should apply for that would best ensure that I can work in South Africa? Again, any guidance is appreciated. 
Danielle


----------



## Saartjie

Danielle 1 said:


> Hi All,
> I am new to this expat forum but this thread seemed to be a helpful starting point for my questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have lived in South Africa for the last 6 years under a student visa. My student visa is expiring at the end of this year (in one month). I have recently graduated from the University of KwaZulu-Natal with my Masters in Economic History and Development Studies. My hope was to apply my academic learning within the context in which it was obtained. However, a formal work visa does not seem obtainable. I do not feel that I qualify for the Exceptional Skill Visa, yet the General Work Visa appears limited. I also have a partner in South Africa. We have been together for 2 plus years, and lived together for the last year. I do not have the money to leave the country (in order to apply for a visa from my home soil). Does anyone know if it is possible to apply for either a work visa or a spousal visa without leaving the country? And whether there are any recommendations as to which visa I should apply for that would best ensure that I can work in South Africa? Again, any guidance is appreciated.
> Danielle


Hi, on the assumption that you are not married and that you have only been with your partner for two years I think your best bet would be a Life Partner Temporary Residence Permit. I am no expert in these but I belive they can be endorsed for work on the same basis as a spousal permit, that is, you must first get a job and then apply for the endorsement.


----------



## 2fargone

Saartjie said:


> Hi, on the assumption that you are not married and that you have only been with your partner for two years I think your best bet would be a Life Partner Temporary Residence Permit. I am no expert in these but I belive they can be endorsed for work on the same basis as a spousal permit, that is, you must first get a job and then apply for the endorsement.


Yes that is correct on the endorsment for work. I applied for the Life Partner I was given a visa for 2 years. If you need any help or questions you can message me.


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## RSA_Newbie

I'm sooooo jealous of you right now! Almost 18 months and I'm still struggling to be "sorted" as they say here and have a normal life!




matflat said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> It's been a few months since I last posted, and thought it'd be nice to provide an update. As of last week I now have my revised temporary residency spousal visa with work permit all sorted. The company I went to work for were ridiculously understanding of the situation as it happens consistently. They hired an immigration lawyer to resolve everything and four months later I am now all sorted. The only advice I can give after this long a drawn out saga is to say that the lawyers were awesome, no problems and they did all the chasing. If you can afford it or your company does this then take the offer up as it was a huge stress having to do this on my own. I did hear that the offices in Cape Town are better at processing the visa;s as they have a new system but I could be wrong.
> 
> So now I am living and working in South Africa and my family is all settled. Best move ever. South Africa is a great country, yes it has issues, as does any country, but from a lifestyle point of view it is amazing. More space, better weather, nicer people, the job is awesome - though the drive to Jo'Burg CBD everyday is both terrifying and exhilarating - taxi drivers are the 8th wonder of the world.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mat.


----------



## RSA_Newbie

Angel Sue said:


> Hi all
> 
> I couldn't help but see this discussion regarding Spousal visa and work permit. Damiana, wow, you've certainly been put through alot. I can't fathom that you have been charged R7000 for basically the second easiest application one can compile. The first of course would be the extension of a visitor's permit. I work for an immigration firm and that is shocking!
> 
> Secondly, the firm that told you that new medicals are needed is wrong. You can submit copies of your medical, radiological and police clearance WITH a declaration to confirm that originals were previously submitted. Regulation 7 (5) clearly states that if documentation is already in the possession of the department, you do not have to get new ones again. I WOULD OF COURSE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU MAKE COPIES (FOR YOURSELF) OF EVERYTHING YOU HAND IN AT HOME AFFAIRS FOR FUTURE USE.
> 
> Thirdly, a Relative's permit can cover anything from Spouses to minor children. However, you can only apply for an endorsement to work, study or conduct own business as a sole proprietor based on a South African spouse. NOT on a parent or minor child who is a SA citizen or permanent residence holder. You spoke about the Immigration Act of 2002. Well, there is an amendment Act of 2004 where it clearly states that a "Visitor's permit may be issued to a foreigner who is the spouse of a citizen or PR holder and who does not qualify for any of the permits contemplated in Sections 13 to 22. That is why they call this a Section 11 (6) permit. In the Act of 2002 (under Section 11), there is no 6th point, however, the 6th point has been added in the Amendment Act of 2004. I hope I put this so you guys can understand
> 
> Fourthly, yes, you have to register for income tax at SARS as a sole proprietor as you will be issuing invoices.
> 
> I would like to say that there are immigration firms who would of course try and rip you off and it is simply put, WRONG!! It's firms like that who gives other firms bad names, which is unfair. Of course Home Affairs sometimes have their moments where they not really helpful or they give you inconsistent information, but we have to live with it. Sometimes an internal directive from Pretoria will be handed out and the regional branches must simply comply. It's a never-ending battle if they are in contravention of their own Act and laws, but it's a battle that will go on and on and on.
> 
> 
> Fifthly, whenever something changed on your permit whether you change employers, schools, from normal relative's to an authorization, it's considered as a Change of Conditions / Status. For this the form BI-1740 is needed. It cannot be a renewal as a renewal means NOTHING changed since obtaining your current permit.
> 
> By the way, I agree with RSA_Newbie, Home Affairs will NOT call you with updates. It is your responsibility to follow up on your own application. Normally you would receive 2 text messages from home affairs when the application has been received and when it was finalized. So please ensure that you give them a valid mobile number on your application form. Also, the SA spouse basically waives all the long procedures which will normally happen if you apply for a work permit or business permit. They waive the advertisement, SAQA and salary benchmarking report, they waive the required R2.5 million, 5 employees, etc.
> 
> I sincerely hope this information at least shed some clarity on some of the issues that were raised here. And please remember that Cape Town Home Affairs requires an additional copy of the application you're submitting at their offices. So instead of ONE set of papers, you'll have to hand in TWO sets of papers.
> 
> Have a lovely day all.
> 
> Sue


So Sue, you are telling me directives do exist within Home Affairs that the requirements of investing R2.5 million and employing 5 South Africans DO NOT apply to the spouse of an SA citizen? I CAN work for myself via a business endorsement? 

By the way, what immigration company do you work for? You can PM me if you'd rather not share on the forum. I am currently trying to get a Change of Status done and was told today that my spouse must accompany me when I submit the application because we must do a spousal interview first before they will accept the application. If you could shed some light I'd be grateful. I realize you aren't in the business of helping people for free but as much as you can or care to share would be appreciated.


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## Durban25

*2 questions*

I am a US citizen and my wife is a South African citizen. Been to HA a number of times for several different things. We have some knowledge of how things work on both sides. Right now the plan is for me to apply for a spousal visa with a work endorsement. We know that you must first receive a job offer. My question is how long do you have to work for the employer? Is there even a certain time frame at all?

Second Question
I am going back to the states in Jan and will be returning three weeks later. Would I run into in problems when I enter SA as I would only be out of the country for three weeks. My wife is a SA citizen so we are thinking there should not being any problems.

Thank you


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## concord

Durban25 said:


> Right now the plan is for me to apply for a spousal visa with a work endorsement. We know that you must first receive a job offer. My question is how long do you have to work for the employer? Is there even a certain time frame at all?


 I'm not sure what you mean asking that question about time frame... You get a job offer, apply for a permit with a work endorsement, get it and start working. You can resign any time you want, you dont have to stay with an employer if you dont want to. But If you quit and then find another job you'll have to apply for a new work endorsement for that new employer.


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## RSA_Newbie

Durban25 said:


> I am a US citizen and my wife is a South African citizen. Been to HA a number of times for several different things. We have some knowledge of how things work on both sides. Right now the plan is for me to apply for a spousal visa with a work endorsement. We know that you must first receive a job offer. My question is how long do you have to work for the employer? Is there even a certain time frame at all?
> 
> Second Question
> I am going back to the states in Jan and will be returning three weeks later. Would I run into in problems when I enter SA as I would only be out of the country for three weeks. My wife is a SA citizen so we are thinking there should not being any problems.
> 
> Thank you


As far as re-entry is concerned, it shouldn't be a problem. If you current Relative's Permit is like mine, it specifies No. of entries: Multiple; so you should be able to re-enter without a problem. I personally haven't tested it as going back to the states is WAY out of our budget.

In regard to number 1, there is no time limit to work for your employer. You just have to keep in mind that once you no longer work for that employer, you must submit for a new permit when you find a new job. The permit is not a blanket work endorsement, it is specific to the employer. So basically each time you want to change jobs, you have to go through the whole process again and wait an undetermineable amount of time to get your updated permit. I was quoted 60-90 days recently when they are supposedly, by law, to be it back to you in 30 days. I will be calling often because I must start my new job on 11 Feb and I don't want to wait until May to start.

It is a BIG fallacy that spouses have a leg up on getting jobs. On paper it may seem like an advantage to DHA but employers don't understand it, all they know is it take HA a long time to issue work permits/endorsements and most will not wait in order to get you a job. My spouse and are a living hand to mouth and I am taking a job that I am WAY over qualified for at a VERY low salary just to have a job and hope that I can work a second or third job on the side to get us even close to affording our own place. 

It's a nightmare. I don't know why they do it this way when they NEED highly qualified people in numerous areas of business in this country and they have an easy resource in foreign spouses but they make it virtually impossible to make yourself marketable and available for things to make a difference.


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## Saartjie

RSA_Newbie said:


> As far as re-entry is concerned, it shouldn't be a problem. If you current Relative's Permit is like mine, it specifies No. of entries: Multiple; so you should be able to re-enter without a problem. I personally haven't tested it as going back to the states is WAY out of our budget.
> 
> In regard to number 1, there is no time limit to work for your employer. You just have to keep in mind that once you no longer work for that employer, you must submit for a new permit when you find a new job. The permit is not a blanket work endorsement, it is specific to the employer. So basically each time you want to change jobs, you have to go through the whole process again and wait an undetermineable amount of time to get your updated permit. I was quoted 60-90 days recently when they are supposedly, by law, to be it back to you in 30 days. I will be calling often because I must start my new job on 11 Feb and I don't want to wait until May to start.
> 
> It is a BIG fallacy that spouses have a leg up on getting jobs. On paper it may seem like an advantage to DHA but employers don't understand it, all they know is it take HA a long time to issue work permits/endorsements and most will not wait in order to get you a job. My spouse and are a living hand to mouth and I am taking a job that I am WAY over qualified for at a VERY low salary just to have a job and hope that I can work a second or third job on the side to get us even close to affording our own place.
> 
> It's a nightmare. I don't know why they do it this way when they NEED highly qualified people in numerous areas of business in this country and they have an easy resource in foreign spouses but they make it virtually impossible to make yourself marketable and available for things to make a difference.


I totally agree with all that you say. They are certainly not making it easier for spouses. On paper yes but in reality no. However by not issuing the permits within the timeline stipulated they are in breach of the Constitution. Every SA citizen has a right to marry a spouse of their choice (foreign or local) and they also have a right to settle in the country of their birth with their chosen spouse. As a spouse you also must be able to provide for the family, especially if there are children involved. My child for example, who is a SA citzen (as well as Swedish) has a right to be supported by her parents. By not issuing a permit to me as the foreign spouse, HA are in effect denying my child the right of support from me and so it goes on and on. Not that HA cares one bit about the Constitution of this country. 

Despite of the above, once it is all sorted out, you will be able to make a good life here. It just takes time (and a lot of it) and patience. I have now been here for 2 years and 4 months and after having sorted most of my permit problems out (apart from still waiting for my PR) I must say that we now have the life that we always wanted. My husband has a great job which he enjoyes and I started a new job about 3 months ago which I absolutely love. We both now earn more than we did in the UK and our expenses are less. Our daughter goes to an excellent nursery and seems to be thriving. We are still renting as we will not be able to buy until I get my PR but that does not bother me at all. So my advise is just to keep pushing and you will get to where you want to be. One just need to have a bit more patience here and remember that 'this is Africa'.


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## RSA_Newbie

Saartjie said:


> I totally agree with all that you say. They are certainly not making it easier for spouses. On paper yes but in reality no. However by not issuing the permits within the timeline stipulated they are in breach of the Constitution. Every SA citizen has a right to marry a spouse of their choice (foreign or local) and they also have a right to settle in the country of their birth with their chosen spouse. As a spouse you also must be able to provide for the family, especially if there are children involved. My child for example, who is a SA citzen (as well as Swedish) has a right to be supported by her parents. By not issuing a permit to me as the foreign spouse, HA are in effect denying my child the right of support from me and so it goes on and on. Not that HA cares one bit about the Constitution of this country.
> 
> Despite of the above, once it is all sorted out, you will be able to make a good life here. It just takes time (and a lot of it) and patience. I have now been here for 2 years and 4 months and after having sorted most of my permit problems out (apart from still waiting for my PR) I must say that we now have the life that we always wanted. My husband has a great job which he enjoyes and I started a new job about 3 months ago which I absolutely love. We both now earn more than we did in the UK and our expenses are less. Our daughter goes to an excellent nursery and seems to be thriving. We are still renting as we will not be able to buy until I get my PR but that does not bother me at all. So my advise is just to keep pushing and you will get to where you want to be. One just need to have a bit more patience here and remember that 'this is Africa'.


Yes Saartjie but you and your husband I would venture to guess are still young. I on the other hand am already 48 and hope that I am not too old now to ever make a decent income and have that wonderful, comfortable life that you guys seems to be moving into. I have so much to offer but ageism rears it's ugly head in the business world quite often. I can only hope once I get some steady experience here, doors will open for me because of my experience.


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## Durban25

Thanks everyone for your answers. We were married on November the 15th. I don't have a relative's permit. In fact I don't have any permit. I have been to South Africa three times this year for 90 days or less. I am going back to the States in Jan to take care of some business and then I will be back three weeks later, so that will give me another 90 days?? On my return we are hoping that I will have a job offer so we can submit a spousal visa along with a work endorsement. Should I go ahead and apply for a spousal visa now? and worry about the work endorsement next year. 

I know it is all suppose to help spouses but I don't see it. I know the frustration everyone is feeling. I am like everyone else I need a job. Going crazy and I have only been back in SA for 2 months!


----------



## Saartjie

RSA_Newbie said:


> Yes Saartjie but you and your husband I would venture to guess are still young. I on the other hand am already 48 and hope that I am not too old now to ever make a decent income and have that wonderful, comfortable life that you guys seems to be moving into. I have so much to offer but ageism rears it's ugly head in the business world quite often. I can only hope once I get some steady experience here, doors will open for me because of my experience.


Age is relative I guess. I am 37 so would not consider myself a 'spring-chicken' From my time here I get a sense that experience and hard work does pay off but as previously stated, it does take some time. All you need is to get your foot in somewhere, SA is very much about who you know and once you're in you can do really really well. I myself practiced as a lawyer in London but as UK legal qualifications are not recognised in SA I had to rethink my career. I now work for a bank, something I would never have considered in the UK and it is the best job I have ever had, very challenging but hugely rewarding. What business are you in?


----------



## RSA_Newbie

Saartjie said:


> Age is relative I guess. I am 37 so would not consider myself a 'spring-chicken' From my time here I get a sense that experience and hard work does pay off but as previously stated, it does take some time. All you need is to get your foot in somewhere, SA is very much about who you know and once you're in you can do really really well. I myself practiced as a lawyer in London but as UK legal qualifications are not recognised in SA I had to rethink my career. I now work for a bank, something I would never have considered in the UK and it is the best job I have ever had, very challenging but hugely rewarding. What business are you in?


I have 20+ years experience in a few different industries but all customer support or account support related. I worked in Telecommunications for MCI for almost 10 years and rose to a mid management level doing account support for other large telecommunications companies that used MCI as part of their network. Then I moved into the entertainment business in California working for a company that "modernized" Hollywood's editing and post production process by utilizing fiber optics and customized software applications. Again, I was a Customer Service Manager but also filled the role of telecom vendor manager as well. After that company went out of business I get into Health and Fitness as it has always been a passion of mine and have run my own personal training business as well as managing small private health clubs. I want to get back into a similar type role as I had with MCI. Telecom would be great because I always loved the business and the constantly changing technological aspect of things but back office jobs in telecom are few and far between. Most of the telecom jobs I run across are technician jobs working in the field. So basically I've been concentrating on the Call Center industry and that is were I will be starting in February albeit at a very entry level position in hopes I can quickly advance because of my background and experience.

I'm still keeping my eyes and ears open for better opportunities. I'll be working for Global Telesales (which kind of a misleading name because they do customer service and just a small portion of it is actually sales) which is the customer support arm of Lufthansa Airlines supporting their ticketing process, mileage program and basically all customer service related functions. I'm looking forward to it I just wish it paid more so my spouse and I could start looking for our own apartment. At a total take home pay of less than R10,000 a month, living on our own is out of the question unless we can find a room mate.


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## LegalMan

RSA_Newbie

Global Telesales is a good firm. Do you speak a language other than English? If you think of moving, there are similar positions in other companies in Cape Town that could be paying more.

Hope this helps.


----------



## RSA_Newbie

Thanks LegalMan but I can't start the job until 11 Feb IF my work permit is squared away and at this stage it appears they have lost my application so I suspect I will have to go resubmit which means its highly doubtful I will be able to start then. I will have to wait until May when the next training class goes through provided my permit is complete by then. As I've stated in other posts I am taking this job for the potential opportunities down the road. I'm really qualified for a much higher level position but again, with the work permit issues it hard to find anyone who will take me seriously for a management position and wait for an undetermined amount of time till I can start work. At this stage I feel I'm stuck and will have to wait it out and put a year or so in before I start trying to move around again if necessary. It's just too much stress for me and I will need a break once I do start working before I go through this experience again.


----------



## Damiana

*Update on my case*



Damiana said:


> I submitted my application for a business endorsement to a pre-existing spousal permit yesterday. The application was accepted by a Home Affairs official who seemed very competent and to know what she was doing so I assume in theory that the process I’ve followed is correct, even though I don’t yet know if the application has been successful.
> 
> The key point I want to make is that immigration consultants will tell you that the application for work/ business endorsements to existing spousal permits is much more complicated than it is – and quote cR7000 for doing the application for you. I chose to spend 2 hours in the Home Affairs queue and managed to submit my application no problem.
> 
> I’d been told by two immigration firms (including Intergate) that despite the fact I’d already got my spousal permit (in September from the SA Consulate in London – very efficient) I would have to re-do the entire temporary residence permit application – so all the hassle of re-submitting chest x-ray, criminal record check, etc. – and this time include the request for the business endorsement (in my case to work as a sole proprietor). When I pressed the immigration firms on this they admitted that I ‘may have a chance’ of getting a business endorsement without re-doing the temporary resident permit application.
> 
> So yesterday, I took to the Home Affairs office in Cape Town the following documents:
> •	Business plan for sole proprietor business (one page outlining my skills and the type of work I would seek to do as a consultant)
> •	Curriculum vitae
> •	SARS registration form (very easy to get – just pop into your nearest SARS office to register as a SA taxpayer)
> •	Letter of endorsement from prospective client (I don’t think I needed this but thought it might be helpful)
> •	Certified copy of my passport
> •	Certified copy of relative’s permit in my passport
> •	Certified copy of husband’s ID book
> •	Certified copy of marriage certificate
> •	Letter of motivation from husband (again, I don’t think I needed this but I wanted to prove we were still married!)
> 
> When I told the official what I wanted to do she asked if I had my ‘business papers’ (yes, see 1-3 above) and if I’d filled out the form, at which point my heart sank. Then she came back with the form and it was the simplest 3-page thing. It’s BI-1740 Form 9 ‘Application for a change of condition on existing permit’. You just fill in your details and say what condition you want to change – so in my case that I wanted to get a business endorsement so that I could work – and why. It took me 3 minutes to complete and then the official accepted my application.
> 
> So I feel quite cross with the big immigration consultants who only told me half the story in order to try to get my business. I’d be really wary of this. These processes aren’t half as complicated as you’ll be told. They may be a bit fiddly and spending two hours at Home Affairs isn’t a whole load of fun, but the irony is, if I’d done this through an immigration firm they’d have not only left me R7000 poorer but also caused me a whole load of extra hassle by telling me to go and get new chest x-rays, medical certificates, etc. that it turned out I didn’t need.
> 
> However, one thing I would emphasise is that my spousal permit is only two months old. If it had been older than 6 months I don’t know whether they would have required a whole re-submission of the temporary resident permit application. But you can find that out easily enough by ringing or visiting Home Affairs.
> 
> The fact of the matter is though that although we have to seek permission to work, spouses in SA are treated as if they have the right to work (hence why we don’t have to submit all the endless documentation that other work/ business visa applicants require), so the sense I get is that the process is on our side.
> 
> Two other things that I’d like to correct that I’ve seen on various blogs:
> 
> -	You CAN get a business endorsement on a relative’s permit, as mine is called a relative’s permit not a spouse’s permit even though in the small print beneath it says it’s for the purpose of living with my spouse.
> 
> -	You CAN get a business endorsement to work as a sole proprietor, and you do NOT have to register your business. You just have to register with SARS, as you will pay tax as an individual. I’ve been told though that this route is harder to go if you’re applying overseas – e.g. that the London consulate require you to be a PTY – but this could be more inaccurate advice; I don’t know because I applied in Cape Town.
> 
> I’m posting this in the hope that I will de-mystify the process for other spouses/ life partners out there, save you some money and encourage you to be wary of the ‘information’ you will receive from immigration firms.


I said I'd come back and update you on my application for a business permit (on existing spousal temporary residence permit), and am pleased to say that I picked it up from Cape Town Home Affairs today (it was actually ready before Christmas). I'm delighted, but also a little cross with the two major immigration firms who told me that I wouldn't be able to get this permit using the route explained in my original email above and would have to do a complete resubmission of my application for a spousal permit - at a cost of R7200 should I wish to use their services.

I am sure there is a lot of expertise in those immigration firms, but there is no incentive for them to give you a full picture if it could be much simpler and cheaper for you not to use them - so beware!

The only cost to me has been four hours at Home Affairs but I now have permission to run my own business in SA for two years.


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## LegalMan

Hi Damiana

Well done and congrats! While I don't know who those immigration firms are (immigration practitioners, not lawyers?), because you were right to shun them. I would like to think everyone knows that you can get a permit on your own, if you know how. It's a decision everyone should make - to pay or go alone and make a big effort and make sure of what you apply for, when, where, with who, etc.

However, regarding immigration lawyers, the service is in the client's benefit. In my experience, I can assure you this:

a.) It is usually not at all as simple as your permit was.
b.) There are sometimes multiple options for people, and then what do they choose? Often incorrectly.
c.) Understanding the Immigration Act is extremely difficult - even your post has an error in it (you can NOT get a Relative's Permit endorsed, they change it to a Temporary Permit with endorsement, as you later correctly state).
d.) Paying for a permit is like insurance - you know nothing can go wrong (except Home Affairs' delays).
e.) Lastly, I know the time and money you spent is a lot more than 2 hours, and for many clients even those 2 hours are worth R2,000. Getting the application together and knowing what to fill in and where is not that simple.

Another example: we now offer a Do-It-Yourself Pack for R1,000 or so, and a booklet for a measly $9. What do we see? People prefer to pay for the more expensive legal services.

Nevertheless, you are right that there is the option for everyone - you can do it on your own, but you must be "rocket-scientist" careful, as my Maths teacher used to say. 

I wish you all the best for your business!


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## 80003-LauraLe

Hi there, I have a spousal visa which also allows me to work, however I was retrenched 6 months ago. Do I have to continue working in order to keep the visa? Do I have to inform Home Affairs of my situation?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## LegalMan

There is no such thing as a Spousal Visa that allows you to work (you may not work on a Relative's Permit). But I think I understand what you actually have. Each time you change jobs on your permit, you do need to inform Home Affairs and should actually reapply for your permit.


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## 80003-LauraLe

It's a temporary resident permit but on it where it says 'type' they have written spousal. Even though it has the code DHA-1635C

My question is: the original permits have been given with "to work at.." and "while residing with life partner/husband". I want to know now that I no longer have a job can I still keep this permit as I am still residing with my husband.


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## LegalMan

Yes, you can keep it, but if it is a standard permit (maybe there is something on it that I don't know?) and if you get a new job, you need to re-apply.

I can't avise more than that without actually seeing the documents involved, apologies.


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## na9099

Hi,

I married to SA citizen in johannesburg and applied for spousal permit in may and still waiting for the visa confirmation.

According my consultant, the spousal visa/ permit was applied with the special condition " freelance business" .

Is this special condition equal to normal business endorsement as it is issued with spousal visa?

Please share some info, If anyone know more about this comdition on spousal permit .

Thanks in advance.


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## na9099

RSA_Newbie said:


> As far as re-entry is concerned, it shouldn't be a problem. If you current Relative's Permit is like mine, it specifies No. of entries: Multiple; so you should be able to re-enter without a problem. I personally haven't tested it as going back to the states is WAY out of our budget.
> 
> In regard to number 1, there is no time limit to work for your employer. You just have to keep in mind that once you no longer work for that employer, you must submit for a new permit when you find a new job. The permit is not a blanket work endorsement, it is specific to the employer. So basically each time you want to change jobs, you have to go through the whole process again and wait an undetermineable amount of time to get your updated permit. I was quoted 60-90 days recently when they are supposedly, by law, to be it back to you in 30 days. I will be calling often because I must start my new job on 11 Feb and I don't want to wait until May to start.
> 
> It is a BIG fallacy that spouses have a leg up on getting jobs. On paper it may seem like an advantage to DHA but employers don't understand it, all they know is it take HA a long time to issue work permits/endorsements and most will not wait in order to get you a job. My spouse and are a living hand to mouth and I am taking a job that I am WAY over qualified for at a VERY low salary just to have a job and hope that I can work a second or third job on the side to get us even close to affording our own place.
> 
> It's a nightmare. I don't know why they do it this way when they NEED highly qualified people in numerous areas of business in this country and they have an easy resource in foreign spouses but they make it virtually impossible to make yourself marketable and available for things to make a difference.



Yes , it is all the common problems facing by the foreign spouses.

Those who came with geniune reasons ,educational qualifications and years of experience was nothing infront of the DHA and people who makes policies.


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## jamesjones

Does Anyone know if you can work beyond the 20 hours a week if it is voluntary in terms of a study Visa?

Many thanks =)


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## LegalMan

@JamesJones - you have asked the same question on 7 different threads - not good forum etiquette. See my reply on the first one.


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## emekaw

*Mr*

Hi 

I came across your link and must say that I enjoy your response to the various posts. Please advice on what myself and my wife do as we start the immigration process for my wife.

I am a SA permanent residence holder and wants to have my wife relocate from Nigeria and join me here in Cpt. My understanding after speaking to a HA official is that she needs to apply first for a relatives visa and then apply for the Section 11(6) visa or spousal visa. However, after reading your thread it seems the two are different applications and mutually exclusive. Please can you advise on how this works. Preferably we want to apply at SA High Commission in Lagos/Abuja as my wife is still working back home at the moment. Please advise how long the process will take, I am worried when you said Section 11(6) takes longer than PR application as we are planning on her visit to SA in August and relocate finally in November 2015. Will await your feedback.


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