# Egyptians should be hanging their head in shame



## MaidenScotland

If I was Egyptian I would be ashamed to say so to the world.

I am appalled at the vitriolic comments that I see posted on Facebook, posts rejoicing at the deaths of fellow Egyptians simply because they belong or support the MB. I am sure on MB supporters group there will be the same comments. 
I have seen comments from people that I consider friends and now I am questioning the wisdom of my judgement. 
I have seen comments such as 

Burn baby burn, let the *******s feel the heat of hell. 

They are animals they do not deserve any better

Kill them all purge the country of them

and then subtle line 

Look what they are doing to our Coptic friends and churches

Yes he is o.k and then the line... for a Christian comes in, I have even had it said to me twice this week then the people concerned realised what they had said and this is supposed to be from Muslims who I presumed were not bigoted. 

If I say anything I am told ohh you don't understand. I understand all too well, I am Catholic my family is from Cork and I was born and brought up on the west coast of Scotland.. so the same bigotry that I was brought up with exists here. 

No one should be dying, no one should be rejoicing at the deaths of one person never mind hundreds. 

I am not a MB supporter and I believe they wanted to get rid of the Egyptian culture and replace it by religious dogma. I don't believe a word they say but they did not deserve this. Why did the police not go in with water cannons? 

What is happening is wrong so wrong.


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## Guest

Because - This is Egypt. 

The military didn't use water cannons because they're sending a message to the people that they're reestablishing the military dictatorship. They wanted to make the body count as high as possible in order to make it clear that nobody can and should stand against them. This was the same mistake that Mubarak gave the order for in the January 25th revolution and caused his over throw. The military recognize what the response to this kind of brutality will be. That's why they asked for the mandate from the people thus giving a warning for the MB camps to clear out a month ahead. That's why they did a slight of hand and had the civilian government announce that the peace negotiations with foreign mediators didn't work with the MB. If you noticed that announcement was nearly the typical 48 hour warning from the time of the crack down. Why announce the peace negotiations didn't work unless some kind of further action is imminent? So the MB had their more immediate warning again and were still defiant and counting on martyring themselves in order to gain sympathy for their cause. That's also why the military has authorized the use of lethal force against anyone attacking them or officers. The march of anger in a few hours is going to be violent. They picked the same name for their Friday of rage that over came the officers in the first revolutions.

If you think about it there have been other indications since the January 2011 revolution that the military was positioning for an eventual return to power. They started with the little groups such as bulldozing over Christians, retracting the security apparatus so people felt the lawlessness, and eventually they get to the biggest groups and do the bloodletting. More recently we've seen the full scale military coup backed by popular mandate, followed by political detentions of the previous governments leaders, the restoring of retired generals into positions of power as governors, and then ending with these series of killings of the pro-Morsi protesters. They started with the small massacres first to test the international communities responses and then they unleashed the savagery yesterday.

With the majority of the population behind them mandating this and accepting the return to military rule and the lack of an increased response from the international community hitting them where it hurts such as the cutting of aid and international sanctions we can expect the iron fist to continue. It also seems the MB didn't make many friends in their year in power and aren't gaining much sympathy in their demise either.

However, I'm hearing stirs and rumbling in the peaceful laid back country people of Upper Egypt that have awoken with rage. What happened up in Cairo has not sat well with them at all. There are a ton of guns and weapons down there that the government couldn't take from them in the old days and so they left them alone. The rules they live by in that region are tribal. It's not like urban Cairo where a massacre like that can happen. I suspect we will see a response of tribal proportion in Upper Egypt. They're saying any person wearing a uniform is going to be a target at the first sign and no one is going to blame them.

The MB is also not helping their situation by saying they're peaceful and then acting otherwise. This doesn't echo Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. when they're fortifying their encampment, bring AK-47's and ammunition to the gun show, inciting violence with their vitriol from their leaders and members, manipulating the media by staging deaths and inflating numbers. There is also a report from Amnesty International in early August about reports on the pro-Morsi camps kidnapping and torturing people. Egypt: Evidence points to torture carried out by Morsi supporters With the numerous reports of attacks on Christians prior to this and then the subsequent burning of their churches yesterday one wouldn't put it past them. Though even I am finding it a stretch to believe the claims by Egyptian Ambassadors that there was a mass grave of bodies they hid in the camps and under the platform where they gave speeches. I've also seen the reports of the pro-Morsi torture chambers but was suspect of that as well until I saw the Amnesty International Report taking it seriously.

I know 43 military and police were killed yesterday. I suspect a lot of Christians are also part of the dead and we'll see more Christians continued to be targeted by Muslims in the future. I know that some of the dead are armed combatants. I've also read claims in reports that the MB were committing suicide by turning their guns on themselves and others to have more martyrs as well as burning the bodies of those they'd previous killed and hid in their camps. I'm more inclined to believe however that the larger number of protesters that died were indeed peaceful.

Neither side is lily white. I do not support the Muslim Brotherhood. Nor the killing of the Muslim Brotherhood. Nor the crimes of the Muslim Brotherhood. Nor the crimes towards the Muslim Brotherhood. 

I support peace. I support moving toward reconciliation with further mediated talks. I support the call for international monitors in Egypt. 

Until the Egyptians come together to do the work needed to write a social contract that they all can agree to live by then the unrest will continue. 

Egypt may have to agree to split into two countries like Sudan did after their several long civil wars. Egypt's military has already fought a ten year insurgency with the armed Islamists in the 1990's. Now we're looking at that happening again but they have more support this time and technology and sophistication has advanced so it will be longer and bloodier. The dynamics of the region has also changed. Libya has a lot of weapons and that border is wide open. Hamas is game on the other border. AQ has a presences in Sinai and the head of AQ now is now 62 year old Egyptian Zawahiri. He has a family mosque in Al Zaytoun and of course roots through out. AQAP from Yemen is game recently and the MB supporters in Yemen are infuriated. I'm seeing responses from the young Yemeni women on fb posting "Kill them, kill them, kill them, god kill them for what they've done in Egypt!" If that's how the citizen feels then what of the AQAP there? I'm just wondering would they travel up around the red sea or try to cross it and go up through Africa.

The next 30 days for the State of Emergency set into place may be optimistic. As for those cheering for the deaths I think everything about the future story will be told in the next 30 days if this escalates or deescalates.


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## canuck2010

Today looks like another big day. The MB are trying to gather large protests, and the military is mobilizing to disperse them. We all know how this will end.


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## MaidenScotland

There will never be a settled country when people rejoice at the death of someone they disagree with..


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> If I was Egyptian I would be ashamed to say so to the world.
> 
> I am appalled at the vitriolic comments that I see posted on Facebook, posts rejoicing at the deaths of fellow Egyptians simply because they belong or support the MB. I am sure on MB supporters group there will be the same comments.
> I have seen comments from people that I consider friends and now I am questioning the wisdom of my judgement.
> I have seen comments such as
> 
> Burn baby burn, let the *******s feel the heat of hell.
> 
> They are animals they do not deserve any better
> 
> Kill them all purge the country of them
> 
> and then subtle line
> 
> Look what they are doing to our Coptic friends and churches
> 
> Yes he is o.k and then the line... for a Christian comes in, I have even had it said to me twice this week then the people concerned realised what they had said and this is supposed to be from Muslims who I presumed were not bigoted.
> 
> If I say anything I am told ohh you don't understand. I understand all too well, I am Catholic my family is from Cork and I was born and brought up on the west coast of Scotland.. so the same bigotry that I was brought up with exists here.
> 
> No one should be dying, no one should be rejoicing at the deaths of one person never mind hundreds.
> 
> I am not a MB supporter and I believe they wanted to get rid of the Egyptian culture and replace it by religious dogma. I don't believe a word they say but they did not deserve this. Why did the police not go in with water cannons?
> 
> What is happening is wrong so wrong.


Well said........

The trouble is that the majority of people don't understand that violence will only cause more violence, and specially when violence is already present in the country 

I did not like the two major sit ins by the MB's supporters and I did want them terminated, or the least that both the army and the police could've done (Should've done really, but it's Egypt  ) would've been to stop all the heavy construction gear and materials, guns, etc. from arriving there and helping them enlarge it! Deep inside me I knew they were letting them have all this so that they'd have a "proof" and a way to justify their violence..........I was also very shocked by Seesy's calls for the people to "Go out and support the army", and I knew that this couldn't end will.......It didn't, and it will not........

As for "friends" and their "behavior"............I'll quote part of one of the Christian victims' statement in the recent attacks, and that was happening a whole week BEFORE the MB sit in was "attacked"............"_I was sitting with my business partner, a Muslim, for some tea in my place 2 hours before the attack, next thing I know is that he was in the front lines of the attackers that came from a nearby village pointing out the Christians' properties for them, including my property_".............This should give an idea about the mentality of some "friends" 

Anyway, I don't think the MB supporters are gonna be targeting any foreigners/expats these days as it seems to be that the "West" turned from their enemy to their new best friend  But you folks still need to be careful 

Stay safe everyone


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## marenostrum

My view on the whole thing is simple and is the same as it was in 2011:

They should have stuck with the old man saving themselves thousands of dead people.
This revolution was always going to be a failure and the MB would always win an election.

What does not help is having incompetent foreign heads of state not having a clue of how to deal with this crisis....


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> My view on the whole thing is simple and is the same as it was in 2011:
> 
> They should have stuck with the old man saving themselves thousands of dead people.
> This revolution was always going to be a failure and the MB would always win an election.
> 
> What does not help is having incompetent foreign heads of state not having a clue of how to deal with this crisis....


Sorry but I can't agree on this.........

The "Old man" was "great" comparing to the MB, definitely, but that doesn't mean he needed to stay........Or have the current situation made you forget what he's been doing?

What's happening in the country right now can not be avoided, it is gonna happen whether now, months from now, or years from now, and the sooner it happens, the better...........

As for the incompetent foreign heads of state? Well how competent are the local ones?


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## marenostrum

DeadGuy said:


> Sorry but I can't agree on this.........
> 
> The "Old man" was "great" comparing to the MB, definitely, but that doesn't mean he needed to stay........Or have the current situation made you forget what he's been doing?
> 
> What's happening in the country right now can not be avoided, it is gonna happen whether now, months from now, or years from now, and the sooner it happens, the better...........
> 
> As for the incompetent foreign heads of state? Well how competent are the local ones?


The only reason Mubarak stepped down in 2011 is because the likes of W Hague and B Incompetent Obama did not back him. Had they done so the army would have fired on the protesters like its doing now. This ******** of the army and people being one is a fantasy.
Yet all these foreign leaders are doing nothing to stop this bloodshed now.

As far as Mubarak goes, if saving tens of thousands of lives would mean him having stayed in power then I would have rather had him stay. Lesser of the two evils.

An Algerian style civil war is not preferable to him having stayed in power.
I'm just being pragmatic here.


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> The only reason Mubarak stepped down in 2011 is because the likes of W Hague and B Incompetent Obama did not back him. Had they done so the army would have fired on the protesters like its doing now. This ******** of the army and people being one is a fantasy.
> Yet all these foreign leaders are doing nothing to stop this bloodshed now.
> 
> As far as Mubarak goes, if saving tens of thousands of lives would mean him having stayed in power then I would have rather had him stay. Lesser of the two evils.
> 
> An Algerian style civil war is not preferable to him having stayed in power.
> I'm just being pragmatic here.


Mubarak did not step down, he was overthrown by his military officials who knew that any orders to shoot at the protesters back then would've never been followed, if not backfires on them...........You're obviously forgetting two main facts about 2011, the army service in Egypt is a mandatory one not optional, the ones who would've been doing the shooting would've been protesting if they didn't have to do their mandatory service for the army; second thing you're forgetting is that the protesters back then were peaceful, and the only ones would've been shot back then would be the pro Mubaraks and the NDP that were causing all the trouble and violence...........

Things are different now cause the army never recruits any MBs or the likes of them, and the "protesters" aren't that peaceful as you can see.......

Egypt doesn't need to follow the Algerian style of civil war, we've got our own version of it .........The 1990's are a very good, obvious proof of that...........And unfortunately, things are going towards that again now...........


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## marenostrum

DeadGuy said:


> Mubarak did not step down, he was overthrown by his military officials who knew that any orders to shoot at the protesters back then would've never been followed, if not backfires on them...........You're obviously forgetting two main facts about 2011, the army service in Egypt is a mandatory one not optional, the ones who would've been doing the shooting would've been protesting if they didn't have to do their mandatory service for the army; second thing you're forgetting is that the protesters back then were peaceful, and the only ones would've been shot back then would be the pro Mubaraks and the NDP that were causing all the trouble and violence...........
> 
> Things are different now cause the army never recruits any MBs or the likes of them, and the "protesters" aren't that peaceful as you can see.......
> 
> Egypt doesn't need to follow the Algerian style of civil war, we've got our own version of it .........The 1990's are a very good, obvious proof of that...........And unfortunately, things are going towards that again now...........


I am convinced that had Mubarak had the support of foreign powers in 2011, he would have stayed in power. But the likes of Obama and Hague got twitchy as soon as they saw Thahir full so they dithered and in the end SCAF preferred to do away with the old man as a scapegoat when deep down nothing changed. They knew MB would win an election and that this showdown would eventually happen sooner rather than later....

So who is doing the shooting now? Can't be all MB thugs can it. Just look at the videos hanging around the net. I am not a MB supporter and I do not want an islamic state here but I do not believe that this level of violence by the authorities is NOT justified.

The question is where do we go from here. I think the US aid should be stopped but it won't happen (even though under US law if there is a military coup in the recipient country the aid should be stopped). 
I think senator MC Cain is not the brightest bulb around but he has stated clearly that the aid should stop yet Mr Obama does not think this should happen. This is the same guy that promised to shut down Guanantamo yet we know it is still open....so we can't really trust him....can we...
The EU, well they are useless.
So in essence I do not think this bloodbath will stop. The massive demos will stop because of the sheer power of the military but then we will see an insurgency in Algerian Iraqi style with suicide bombers and car bombs going off all over.
The picture is bleak and will not get better. Just blaming the MB will not do egyptians any favours......a national reconciliation effort is required but we have weak foreign leaders and a fragmented egyptian society....


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> I am convinced that had Mubarak had the support of foreign powers in 2011, he would have stayed in power. But the likes of Obama and Hague got twitchy as soon as they saw Thahir full so they dithered and in the end SCAF preferred to do away with the old man as a scapegoat when deep down nothing changed. They knew MB would win an election and that this showdown would eventually happen sooner rather than later....
> 
> So who is doing the shooting now? Can't be all MB thugs can it. Just look at the videos hanging around the net. I am not a MB supporter and I do not want an islamic state here but I do not believe that this level of violence by the authorities is NOT justified.
> 
> The question is where do we go from here. I think the US aid should be stopped but it won't happen (even though under US law if there is a military coup in the recipient country the aid should be stopped).
> I think senator MC Cain is not the brightest bulb around but he has stated clearly that the aid should stop yet Mr Obama does not think this should happen. This is the same guy that promised to shut down Guanantamo yet we know it is still open....so we can't really trust him....can we...
> The EU, well they are useless.
> So in essence I do not think this bloodbath will stop. The massive demos will stop because of the sheer power of the military but then we will see an insurgency in Algerian Iraqi style with suicide bombers and car bombs going off all over.
> The picture is bleak and will not get better. Just blaming the MB will not do egyptians any favours......a national reconciliation effort is required but we have weak foreign leaders and a fragmented egyptian society....


I am sure Mubarak would've stayed in power if he did have the "foreign power" too, but for how long? And on what cost?

The MB can't be doing all the shooting now? Seriously? You really are underestimating the MB, they're an international organisation that's well funded, and more importantly, well trained.......I am certain that they are more than capable of doing what's happening now, it just shocks me that the army is leaving them to do all this without even trying to stop them, but then again the "Western" media and governments' reaction and how they're protecting the MB as hard as they can comes to mind, the army's probably letting them go that far to give the "West" something else to talk about other than the "Oh poor MB protesters getting shot by the Egyptian army" headlines in there 

Whether the US aid stops or not right now won't make much difference I think, simply cause it went much further than the point where the US aid card can be used, now there are other alternatives available, and more importantly, the US lost all it's support anyway when they decided to take the MB's side.........

The bloodshed won't stop anytime soon, and it will get a lot more ugly by the time, a lot more worse than what's happening today too.


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## evie190

*My ConnectionWith Egypt*

My father's parents were in Egypt before I was born
I only came across their papers and a marriage certificate
after my mother died in 2000

It seems that my father's father Richard Oliver Schutz was in business
there - in what I cannot say
His wife my grandmother who was already deceased by the time 
I was born, Judith Galli was from Italy
It is possible she was jewish fleeing from the Nazis between World War I & II
After which my father Rene Jules Schutz (also deceased ) seems to have been baptised a Catholic - this was common for the Jewish communities 

I am still searching for any relatives that my still be living because I have nobody from
my childhood
My father died when I was six - his parents were already dead 
It seems that he had older brothers but a younger sibling 
In 1944 the home address was Sharia Hussein Pacha - Miemez Miden - Soliman Pacha Cairo
But when my father was born the address in 1908 was 13 Rue Nabi Daniel Alexandria 
Witness to the registration of my fathers birth being Monsieurs Williams James Weech aged 50yrs and Athenodore Basile Economides aged 55yrs -
This is why I feel the strong connection with Egypt and I still have my father's ashes sitting in my house which my mother brought back from South Africa in 1953
None of us know, least of all me, where we or I belong!
Named after my late grandmother 
My heart goes out to all who are suffering the present carnage -
We as a family went through hell and found ourselves totally dislocated 
from a whole family. 
I still feel like an orphan after all these years. 

Judith


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> If I was Egyptian I would be ashamed to say so to the world.
> 
> I am appalled at the vitriolic comments that I see posted on Facebook, posts rejoicing at the deaths of fellow Egyptians simply because they belong or support the MB. I am sure on MB supporters group there will be the same comments.
> I have seen comments from people that I consider friends and now I am questioning the wisdom of my judgement.
> I have seen comments such as
> 
> Burn baby burn, let the *******s feel the heat of hell.
> 
> They are animals they do not deserve any better
> 
> Kill them all purge the country of them
> 
> and then subtle line
> 
> Look what they are doing to our Coptic friends and churches
> 
> Yes he is o.k and then the line... for a Christian comes in, I have even had it said to me twice this week then the people concerned realised what they had said and this is supposed to be from Muslims who I presumed were not bigoted.
> 
> If I say anything I am told ohh you don't understand. I understand all too well, I am Catholic my family is from Cork and I was born and brought up on the west coast of Scotland.. so the same bigotry that I was brought up with exists here.
> 
> No one should be dying, no one should be rejoicing at the deaths of one person never mind hundreds.
> 
> I am not a MB supporter and I believe they wanted to get rid of the Egyptian culture and replace it by religious dogma. I don't believe a word they say but they did not deserve this. Why did the police not go in with water cannons?
> 
> What is happening is wrong so wrong.


Just had a look at my facebook page, many of my local friends have got Sisi's picture on their avatar (these are the same ones that had Tahiri pics in 2011 on their profile )...and others have Morsi.

On their timeline there are awful comments along the lines of the ones you have quoted...and these are university educated people who are supposed to have a brain. I do wonder whether social media makes things worse in these circumstances.


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## Guest

I think many would agree that they're trading an islamo-fascist regime for a the military fascist regime because it's what they know and are used to. Plus the military is recognized as largely secular which is in alignment with the beliefs of the popular group. 

The US can't cancel their aid to Egypt because of the third party in that peace agreement that they are strongly allied with and protect. Israel has appealed to the US not to cancel the agreement. Plus Israel and Egypt's military are seeing unprecedented cooperation in the matter of Sinai. 

Also it's been suggested that in the long run it would be unwise for the US because they did cancel their aid to Pakistan's military and look how that turned out. It's been nearly ten years and we have yet to normalize our military relations with them and have the same level of cooperation. 

The US can do everything else diplomatically but cancel the conditions of the peace agreement. The next step they could take would be closing the US embassy in Egypt and recalling the Ambassador, but they can't cancel the peace agreement and the aid package. They need cooperation with the military on Israel and the US Navy needs priority access to the Suez Canal. It's about military cooperation in the region, military intelligence in the region, and the major access through the Suez Canal in the region.

The government has already given the Egyptian military an implied year to transition to a civilian government while they review the aid package and they acknowledge that the transition will be difficult. This also gives the US time to rewrite the laws surrounding the aid package if need be which they're working on.

I agree that we don't need to make comparisons to any other country about what's going to happen with Egypt when we can look at Egypt's own history in the 1990's. The military and the popular group have already adopted the same narrative that they're fighting Islamic terrorists. This suggests they're looking at their own history for how this will play out. The goals of both sides are the same as back then. The situation may be different as the Islamists were given power and then that power was taken away and now they have a legitimate grievance. However nothing justifies the political violence from either side.

Looking at other ways this could play out it would have to come from inside Egypt. All the countries in all the world can condemn what's happening and call for peace talks but it won't change what's happening until it comes from within the domestic politics. This was mandated by the people of Egypt. They're cheering for it. If they had been appalled by the excess use of force against defiant yet largely peaceful civilians and called for a truce and a return to talks then the situation may be different. 

The Tamarod movement and other groups that mandated this crackdown on the MB by the military could call on their transitional civilian government for such a truce. They could say enough bloodshed. We don't want to fight with our muslim brothers. We don't want a ten year civil war. We want to call a truce and call on the military to use restraint with peaceful demonstrators. Then the political parties could call on further peace talks. They could start this by calling on a public day of mourning" and let the people of the country peacefully bury their dead without furthering fighting.

It has to come from within Egypt to stop the violence.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> Just had a look at my facebook page, many of my local friends have got Sisi's picture on their avatar (these are the same ones that had Tahiri pics in 2011 on their profile )...and others have Morsi.
> 
> On their timeline there are awful comments along the lines of the ones you have quoted...and these are university educated people who are supposed to have a brain. I do wonder whether social media makes things worse in these circumstances.




And Sisi's photo!! Why do Egyptians never use an updated photo?


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## Guest

MaidenScotland said:


> And Sisi's photo!! Why do Egyptians never use an updated photo?


I think this has to be a rhetorical question. 

I've come to the conclusion that just as Egyptians are a proud people they're also very narcissistic and full of false modesty. I can't count the number of times I've caught them looking at themselves in the mirror. Doesn't matter who it is. Take a camera to the country and they all want pictures of themselves taken and never mind the others, because they want to see themselves. Set a mirror in the house and you'll catch them multiple times an hour passing glances at themselves.

All their professional photos are photo-shopped too.

:roll:


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## MaidenScotland

zaytoona said:


> I think this has to be a rhetorical question.
> 
> I've come to the conclusion that just as Egyptians are a proud people they're also very narcissistic and full of false modesty. I can't count the number of times I've caught them looking at themselves in the mirror. Doesn't matter who it is. Take a camera to the country and they all want pictures of themselves taken and never mind the others, because they want to see themselves. Set a mirror in the house and you'll catch them multiple times an hour passing glances at themselves.
> 
> All their professional photos are photo-shopped too.
> 
> :roll:




lol yes even the ugly ones look in the mirror all day long


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## marenostrum

zaytoona said:


> I think many would agree that they're trading an islamo-fascist regime for a the military fascist regime because it's what they know and are used to. Plus the military is recognized as largely secular which is in alignment with the beliefs of the popular group.
> 
> The US can't cancel their aid to Egypt because of the third party in that peace agreement that they are strongly allied with and protect. Israel has appealed to the US not to cancel the agreement. Plus Israel and Egypt's military are seeing unprecedented cooperation in the matter of Sinai.
> 
> Also it's been suggested that in the long run it would be unwise for the US because they did cancel their aid to Pakistan's military and look how that turned out. It's been nearly ten years and we have yet to normalize our military relations with them and have the same level of cooperation.
> 
> The US can do everything else diplomatically but cancel the conditions of the peace agreement. The next step they could take would be closing the US embassy in Egypt and recalling the Ambassador, but they can't cancel the peace agreement and the aid package. They need cooperation with the military on Israel and the US Navy needs priority access to the Suez Canal. It's about military cooperation in the region, military intelligence in the region, and the major access through the Suez Canal in the region.
> 
> The government has already given the Egyptian military an implied year to transition to a civilian government while they review the aid package and they acknowledge that the transition will be difficult. This also gives the US time to rewrite the laws surrounding the aid package if need be which they're working on.
> 
> I agree that we don't need to make comparisons to any other country about what's going to happen with Egypt when we can look at Egypt's own history in the 1990's. The military and the popular group have already adopted the same narrative that they're fighting Islamic terrorists. This suggests they're looking at their own history for how this will play out. The goals of both sides are the same as back then. The situation may be different as the Islamists were given power and then that power was taken away and now they have a legitimate grievance. However nothing justifies the political violence from either side.
> 
> Looking at other ways this could play out it would have to come from inside Egypt. All the countries in all the world can condemn what's happening and call for peace talks but it won't change what's happening until it comes from within the domestic politics. This was mandated by the people of Egypt. They're cheering for it. If they had been appalled by the excess use of force against defiant yet largely peaceful civilians and called for a truce and a return to talks then the situation may be different.
> 
> The Tamarod movement and other groups that mandated this crackdown on the MB by the military could call on their transitional civilian government for such a truce. They could say enough bloodshed. We don't want to fight with our muslim brothers. We don't want a ten year civil war. We want to call a truce and call on the military to use restraint with peaceful demonstrators. Then the political parties could call on further peace talks. They could start this by calling on a public day of mourning" and let the people of the country peacefully bury their dead without furthering fighting.
> 
> It has to come from within Egypt to stop the violence.


I am not so sure. Regime change has been made to happen when it suited in many countires in the world from the ME to Central America over the years.
I am not advocating anything silly like military intervention but I do think more pressure should be applied on the military to stop the bloodshed.

There was absolutely no need for what happened in the last few days. Buldozers ramming into those sit ins whats the point?
Personally I think that they did this deliberately to provoke a reaction from the MB and a violent one at that so that they could legitimize themselves in front of the people who are incredibly gullible and would believe any ******** thrown at them or change their minds like the wind.


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## jemiljan

Dispatches | Cairo, again

"The past days have left me with a feeling of uselessness and alienation. I condemn both the Brotherhood and the security forces in their inter-locking cycle of violence and lies. There is no place for me in the street, or in a national conversation determined to start and end with chauvinistic nationalism. So I stay in and watch the city descend into silence, the streets emptying of life as military curfew approaches."


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## jemiljan

zaytoona said:


> I agree that we don't need to make comparisons to any other country about what's going to happen with Egypt when we can look at Egypt's own history in the 1990's. The military and the popular group have already adopted the same narrative that they're fighting Islamic terrorists.


...and this despite the fact that Egypt has been relatively quite fortunate that the worst incidents in her history have paled in comparison to what has happened in Syria, Libya, and Yemen in the last couple of years, where real terrorism is a fact of life experienced on a daily basis. A reasonable person would admit this is a gross exaggeration, but who is being reasonable right now? Getting easily offended and angry at those who dare to utter a modicum of reasonable criticism is awfully childish. While there is certainly no shortage of reasons to criticise the Ikhwan, demonising and scapegoating them- much less justifying the violence- won't solve any of the problems that Egypt is facing.


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## jemiljan

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/999602_501028506638062_1735367583_n.jpg


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## MaidenScotland

Copied and pasted from the facebook page of a well educated. traveled in his 50s but you would think he was a schoolboy and this is not an unusual post.

To All Al Jazeera Whores, Pimps & Cocksuckers - Yes It Is A Coup You *******. The Terrorists Are NOT coming Back !!! Eat Your Hearts Out You Pathetic Stinking Filthy SOB's !!! Yasser Hamza, Go Screw Yourself 


If this is how the well educated act then god help us.


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## marenostrum

I took the courage to post on two of my friends pages the following: "you have put Sisi's picture on your avatar, you might as well have dug out an old Hosni picture, they are the same and in fact they even look the same".

needless to say the comment was deleted within five minutes and I got took off their list of friends......


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## jemiljan

MaidenScotland said:


> Copied and pasted from the facebook page of a well educated. traveled in his 50s but you would think he was a schoolboy and this is not an unusual post.
> 
> To All Al Jazeera Whores, Pimps & Cocksuckers - Yes It Is A Coup You *******. The Terrorists Are NOT coming Back !!! Eat Your Hearts Out You Pathetic Stinking Filthy SOB's !!! Yasser Hamza, Go Screw Yourself
> 
> 
> If this is how the well educated act then god help us.


How childish. Fortunately, there are other more educated voices out there, but there's no denying that such sentiments are being freely aired.


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## qworld

*
I am proud because I am Egyptian
thanks to Geeral Sisi 
Western countries that talk about human rights
They did not respect any human to humans in their countries
In Britain and the United States and france hit and killed peaceful protestors
Americans and europen in Iraq and afghanistan etc have committed crimes against humanity
We Love You General Sisi


*


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## qworld

*Yes it is a coup
We, the people loves coup
Why Western nations angry?
Is there one wants something else
Greetings to coup*


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## qworld

> To All Al Jazeera Whores, Pimps & Cocksuckers - Yes It Is A Coup You *******. The Terrorists Are NOT coming Back !!! Eat Your Hearts Out You Pathetic Stinking Filthy SOB's !!! Yasser Hamza, Go Screw Yourself


This is exactly what I was I want to say
Great Like for those who wrote this


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## marenostrum

qworld said:


> *Yes it is a coup
> We, the people loves coup
> Why Western nations angry?
> Is there one wants something else
> Greetings to coup*


Yes it is a coupe....then you should have stuck with mubarak shouldn't you...he is in the same mould as Sisi

Why Western nations angry?..I do not care about Western nation being angry. i do not trust them, but that does not change the fact that your military is murdering people and hoping that the MB turns violent (which it has) so that any action is justified in front of the gullible people of egypt.

Is there one wants something else...yes, I do not want to see people getting killed. I want to see ational reconciliation, I do not think MB should be banned or else you are back to pre 2011 era. I don't think tanks killing people is the answer, do you?

Greetings to coup....ok then, these comments show that 2011 was a joke.


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## marenostrum

qworld said:


> This is exactly what I was I want to say
> Great Like for those who wrote this


I thoughtI thoughgt schools were closed....:horn:


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## qworld

*



Yes it is a coupe....then you should have stuck with mubarak shouldn't you...he is in the same mould as Sisi

Why Western nations angry?..I do not care about Western nation being angry. i do not trust them, but that does not change the fact that your military is murdering people and hoping that the MB turns violent (which it has) so that any action is justified in front of the gullible people of egypt.

Is there one wants something else...yes, I do not want to see people getting killed. I want to see ational reconciliation, I do not think MB should be banned or else you are back to pre 2011 era. I don't think tanks killing people is the answer, do you?

Greetings to coup....ok then, these comments show that 2011 was a joke.

Click to expand...

Yes
media tricked us and made ​​us believe that Mubarak and the army are killing people
But we thank God
Because he made all the Egyptians know the truth
------------------------------------------------------
Human Rights in USa (U.S. police assaults on peaceful demonstrators using shoes) U.S. police respect human rights








Egyptian army kill protesters (Egyptian army helps one of the MB protesters to get out safely) Army does not respect human rights









*


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## qworld

> I do not think MB should be banned


*I do not know why the western countries did not come to terms with Hitler and the Nazi Partyand banned them?!



I thoughtI thoughgt schools were closed....

Click to expand...

Egyptian schools still open
We give lessons to the world and Obama about real democarcy And the fight against terrorism
















*


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## txlstewart

I'm not sure I've ever seen a US law enforcement person use a shoe to subdue an unruly crowd...


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## siti

I am a Muslim and it is very painful to see the violence happening in Muslim countries particularly in Middle East. It shows that although Arabs need not any translation to understand the Holy book Quran, but many do not apply the guidelines in their daily life. It is not in their heart, mind and soul as it very very very should be as an obedient Muslim. 
Imagine a person with a complicated gadget (like this complicated life) but refuse to follow the instructions/guides from the manuals (Quran and Sunnah). So he use it without care that he mess it up, risk damage it completely! Ignorant, easily influence by the devil and he-say she-say instead of what GOD say and what the Prophet say. 
Take note Egyptian and Syrians, you bring sadness and shame to other Muslims.


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## DeadGuy

qworld said:


> *
> I am proud because I am Egyptian
> thanks to Geeral Sisi
> Western countries that talk about human rights
> They did not respect any human to humans in their countries
> In Britain and the United States and france hit and killed peaceful protestors
> Americans and europen in Iraq and afghanistan etc have committed crimes against humanity
> We Love You General Sisi
> 
> 
> *


Please cut the crap and the empty pride, there's absolutely nothing to be proud of right now, specially the wasted lives that could easily be avoided


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> Yes it is a coupe....then you should have stuck with mubarak shouldn't you...he is in the same mould as Sisi
> 
> Why Western nations angry?..I do not care about Western nation being angry. i do not trust them, but that does not change the fact that your military is murdering people and hoping that the MB turns violent (which it has) so that any action is justified in front of the gullible people of egypt.
> 
> Is there one wants something else...yes, I do not want to see people getting killed. I want to see ational reconciliation, I do not think MB should be banned or else you are back to pre 2011 era. I don't think tanks killing people is the answer, do you?
> 
> Greetings to coup....ok then, these comments show that 2011 was a joke.


Regardless of the empty naive views of the majority of Egyptians right now, I don't think it's smart or fair to say that what happened in 2011 is useless and that people should've stuck with Mubark, simply cause none of what's happening now would've happened if the MB managed to invest their chance when they were "voted" (One way or another  ) in to the Parliament and the presidency.........

I am certain that the SCAF, pro Mubaraks, and many others were racing to put as many obstacles in front of Morsi & his regime, but at the end of the day that's where a leader should show leadership or failure, and instead of trying to work things out, they were busy setting convicted killers free and helping smuggling fuel to the Pali branch of their organization, putting people in offices for no reason other than being MB members, etc., that, and the fact that MB chose to take violence as a way to deal with opposition is what brought the country to the unfortunate situation that we're in right now.


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## DeadGuy

siti said:


> I am a Muslim and it is very painful to see the violence happening in Muslim countries particularly in Middle East. It shows that although Arabs need not any translation to understand the Holy book Quran, but many do not apply the guidelines in their daily life. It is not in their heart, mind and soul as it very very very should be as an obedient Muslim.
> Imagine a person with a complicated gadget (like this complicated life) but refuse to follow the instructions/guides from the manuals (Quran and Sunnah). So he use it without care that he mess it up, risk damage it completely! Ignorant, easily influence by the devil and he-say she-say instead of what GOD say and what the Prophet say.
> Take note Egyptian and Syrians, you bring sadness and shame to other Muslims.


Very painful to see violence happening in Muslim countries particularly in Middle East?

It's sad that you put it this way really..........How about other non Muslim countries? Would it be less "painful" to see violence in there? 

Sounds like you either need to read your own "Manual" again, or find a new one


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## DeadGuy

DeadGuy said:


> Regardless of the empty naive views of the majority of Egyptians right now, I don't think it's smart or fair to say that what happened in 2011 is useless and that people should've stuck with Mubark, simply cause none of what's happening now would've happened if the MB managed to invest their chance when they were "voted" (One way or another  ) in to the Parliament and the presidency.........
> 
> I am certain that the SCAF, pro Mubaraks, and many others were racing to put as many obstacles in front of Morsi & his regime, but at the end of the day that's where a leader should show leadership or failure, and instead of trying to work things out, they were busy setting convicted killers free and helping smuggling fuel to the Pali branch of their organization, putting people in offices for no reason other than being MB members, etc., that, and the fact that MB chose to take violence as a way to deal with opposition is what brought the country to the unfortunate situation that we're in right now.


Forgot to add: Morsi's ridiculously long, boring, childish speeches were another reason why everyone lost hope with MB


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> I took the courage to post on two of my friends pages the following: "you have put Sisi's picture on your avatar, you might as well have dug out an old Hosni picture, they are the same and in fact they even look the same".
> 
> needless to say the comment was deleted within five minutes and I got took off their list of friends......




Who needs friends like that


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## MaidenScotland

Everything was possible | Mada Masr


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## Guest

From the self described detached academic scholars perspective they say basically this is not going to benefit democracy and that the aspirations of the Arab Spring are finished.



> "I don't think it's right for us to even talk about a democratic transition in Egypt," said Shadi Hamid, director of research for the Brookings Doha Center. "The transition is over. And again, what we might be seeing is something worse than what happened under [former President Hosni] Mubarak."
> 
> Those sentiments were echoed by Steven A. Cook, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. In a piece headlined "Mubarak Still Rules," Cook argued in Foreign Policy magazine that "the 'revolution' that really never was, is over."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Just as Egypt's political system before the January 25 [2011] uprising was rigged in favor of Mubarak and his constituents, the Brothers sought to stack the new order in their favor, and today's winners will build a political system that reflects their interests. ... Although virtually all political actors have leveraged the language of political reform and espoused liberal ideas, they have nevertheless sought to wield power through exclusion. This has created an environment in which the losers do not process their grievances through elections, parliamentary debate, consensus-building, and compromise — but through military intervention and street protests. This plays into the hands of those powerful groups embedded within the state who have worked to restore the old order almost from the time that Hosni Mubarak stepped down into ignominy two and a half years ago."
Click to expand...

From August 15th Egypt's Bloody Crackdown Raises Specter Of Prolonged Battle

Going a little further back from July 11th the Brookings Doha research on Egypt did an academic discussion on the situation in Egypt. You can watch it here.Egypt and Beyond: Military Intervention and the Democratic Process

Already today reports are coming out that attacks on MB are being done by civilians and vice versa, i.e. civilian on civilian attacks. I guess there were always ongoing street battles throughout.


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## Guest

More on government sanctioned citizen groups and everyday ordinary citizens verbally and physically attacking other citizens from opposing groups. Link

Very disturbing.



> Men with sticks pummeled a man attempting to leave. "Beat him, beat him," they chanted as the man retreated back inside, running up stairs that were speckled with blood.
> 
> "You want to destroy the country."
> 
> "This is the Brotherhood's fault."
> 
> "The people want the execution of the Brotherhood."
> 
> "Good, good, let them be beaten to death," someone said as a bandaged man struggled to walk through the mob.
> 
> "Sisi, Sisi, Sisi," the mob chanted throughout the day, holding up pictures of Gen. Abdel Fattah Sisi, commander of the armed forces, and a hero to millions of Egyptians.
> 
> "I want to give Sisi and Mohamed Ibrahim and the whole military permission to kill all of them."
> 
> "The entire Egyptian people will give them the permission to kill them. They are destroying the country."
> 
> A man beside him began to agree. Then another anti-military protester was brought out of the mosque, and the man yelled: "Bring him here, bring him here."
> 
> The protester, his shirt ripped open, his glasses askew, winced under a constant barrage of fists.
> 
> "Get off me, get off me," he pleaded.


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## marenostrum

DeadGuy said:


> Regardless of the empty naive views of the majority of Egyptians right now, I don't think it's smart or fair to say that what happened in 2011 is useless and that people should've stuck with Mubark, simply cause none of what's happening now would've happened if the MB managed to invest their chance when they were "voted" (One way or another  ) in to the Parliament and the presidency.........
> 
> .


This is it, you really thought 2011 was going to bring change when every outsider knew it would not. 

Pragmatism is not an Egyptian trait...at least in my experience...

Changing the man at the top was never going to make a difference, not when the whole bureocratic-economic apparatus was staying the same. The generals owning companies, land, public sector etc etc
Do you really think Moubarak was the one calling the shots? He was just the figure for a wholly corrupt and self centered apparatus which has been intact since 2011, MB did not change this either way and in fact I think that Morsi was a puppet even more than HM.
Getting rid of HM was not going to make any difference, you might as well as saved 1000s of lives and not descended into a 20 year civil war which is what will happen.
In an ideal world Egyptians would have all pulled their socks up and tried to make the country better but instead nothing changed in everyones attitude, and also admittedly it is difficult to kick the army out here. all of you guys seem to love this army, the army and people as one and all that, you have been indoctrinated this ******** when instead the army has done nothing but suck blood from you, and now literally too...


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> This is it, you really thought 2011 was going to bring change when every outsider knew it would not.
> 
> Pragmatism is not an Egyptian trait...at least in my experience...
> 
> Changing the man at the top was never going to make a difference, not when the whole bureocratic-economic apparatus was staying the same. The generals owning companies, land, public sector etc etc
> Do you really think Moubarak was the one calling the shots? He was just the figure for a wholly corrupt and self centered apparatus which has been intact since 2011, MB did not change this either way and in fact I think that Morsi was a puppet even more than HM.
> Getting rid of HM was not going to make any difference, you might as well as saved 1000s of lives and not descended into a 20 year civil war which is what will happen.
> In an ideal world Egyptians would have all pulled their socks up and tried to make the country better but instead nothing changed in everyones attitude, and also admittedly it is difficult to kick the army out here. all of you guys seem to love this army, the army and people as one and all that, you have been indoctrinated this ******** when instead the army has done nothing but suck blood from you, and now literally too...


Getting to the current situation is change (To the worse, which could've been avoided if the ones in charge were smarter, but it is a change).

I do remember back in 2011 I was pretty clear that any progress in the country will take time, I never, at any time, thought or claimed that the grass will be greener or that everything will improve immediately, but on the other hand, I never did expect it to get THAT ugly, and definitely not that quickly.

No one's arguing the facts that both Mubarak and Morsi were puppets in others' hands, but they were in charge and had they taken the lead things might had been different.

What you think would've happened if the army stayed out of it and people were to confront the MB's members on their own? Unfortunately, the army is the only facility in the country that's still well ran, organised, equipped enough, and capable of dealing with the MB and their other partners' well organised, well trained "members", that's why it isn't just "difficult" to kick the army out, but more of impossible actually, and that is also why the majority of the population "love" the army as you put it, and that is why most people were/are looking at the army as their "savior"; sadly though, this majority seems to have forgotten all what the army did before and I believe that this will cost everyone too much, too soon.

The fact that the army's leaders are leading both the army and the country to the wrong direction is a whole different story though, and I don't think that will change anytime soon.


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## jemiljan

marenostrum said:


> This is it, you really thought 2011 was going to bring change when every outsider knew it would not.


Now that's a classic hasty generalisation fallacy. Did in fact "every outside" think this way? I have very strong doubts about that.



> Pragmatism is not an Egyptian trait...at least in my experience...


...and there's another one. I'm sorry, but even my maid can be very pragmatic. 



> Getting rid of HM was not going to make any difference, you might as well as saved 1000s of lives and not descended into a 20 year civil war which is what will happen.


Sorry, but I find this analysis a bit too simplistic. Egypt had every chance, but from the moment that the decision was made to have presidential elections before implementing a constitution, it was all downhill from there. There was a very real opportunity, and it was sadly squandered.


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## marenostrum

jemiljan said:


> Sorry, but I find this analysis a bit too simplistic. Egypt had every chance, but from the moment that the decision was made to have presidential elections before implementing a constitution, it was all downhill from there. There was a very real opportunity, and it was sadly squandered.


You are assuming that having a constitution means that people will follow it. I can give you many examples of countries which have a constitution but this isn't followed, even in the West. 

It has got nothing to do with constituions etc etc. The mindsets are wrong.


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## jemiljan

marenostrum said:


> You are assuming that having a constitution means that people will follow it.


No, not at all. I'm merely suggesting that the problems surrounding that issue that ensued after the presidential elections might have been mitigated. 

To imply that since Mubarak was removed from office before the current events took place, therefore his removal is the cause of them, is a form of "false cause" fallacy. We've not arrived at this point simply because Mubarak was removed, but due to a series of factors and events, mistakes, missteps, and missed opportunities that have resulted in this outcome. I mentioned one of them being the issue of the constitution, but it's quite obviously not the only one.


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## Guest

The discourse between the two sides recently seems to have moved well beyond the Anti Coup and Pro Coup rhetoric. More and more it's appearing to look like the same narrative of the 1990's insurgency in Egypt from both sides.

Muslim Brotherhood won't shy away from martyrdom



> The dead haven't even been counted and already the Muslim Brotherhood is calling for new protests. A whole "week of resistance" is what's planned
> 
> "In the Algerian civil war there were 100,000 people who died. We are ready to pay the same price," a young Islamist said on the streets of Cairo. He has already internalized the Brotherhood's logic of martyrdom.
> 
> "The Koran is our constitution. Jihad is our way. Dying for God is our most noble desire."


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## hurghadapat

DeadGuy said:


> Getting to the current situation is change (To the worse, which could've been avoided if the ones in charge were smarter, but it is a change).
> 
> I do remember back in 2011 I was pretty clear that any progress in the country will take time, I never, at any time, thought or claimed that the grass will be greener or that everything will improve immediately, but on the other hand, I never did expect it to get THAT ugly, and definitely not that quickly.
> 
> No one's arguing the facts that both Mubarak and Morsi were puppets in others' hands, but they were in charge and had they taken the lead things might had been different.
> 
> What you think would've happened if the army stayed out of it and people were to confront the MB's members on their own? Unfortunately, the army is the only facility in the country that's still well ran, organised, equipped enough, and capable of dealing with the MB and their other partners' well organised, well trained "members", that's why it isn't just "difficult" to kick the army out, but more of impossible actually, and that is also why the majority of the population "love" the army as you put it, and that is why most people were/are looking at the army as their "savior"; sadly though, this majority seems to have forgotten all what the army did before and I believe that this will cost everyone too much, too soon.
> 
> The fact that the army's leaders are leading both the army and the country to the wrong direction is a whole different story though, and I don't think that will change anytime soon.



No one's arguing the facts that both Mubarak and Morsi were puppets in others' hands, but they were in charge and had they taken the lead things might had been different.

Puppets are controlled by the ones who pull the strings


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## Bedu1

DeadGuy said:


> "Things are different now cause the army never recruits any MBs or the likes of them"
> 
> 
> I can't see how this is the case. Being a conscript army - and therefore to some degree reflective of the country's composition - here must statistically be some proportion of recruits that are (at least privately) supportive of the MB?


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## Bedu1

Sorry, my above post became merged with the post that I was commenting on. (Fat fingers on an iPhone!)

My comment is the bit not in quotation marks.


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## MaidenScotland

Bedu1 said:


> Sorry, my above post became merged with the post that I was commenting on. (Fat fingers on an iPhone!)
> 
> My comment is the bit not in quotation marks.





conscripts always say we are going into the army but that is not always the case, conscripts here work on building site, hotels, factories.. in fact anything the army owns has it's manual labour done by conscripts.


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## Bedu1

Ah, yes. That figures. An effective method of ensuring that those of potentially dissident viewpoints are made to be productive but kept away from the rifles!


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## MaidenScotland

Bedu1 said:


> Ah, yes. That figures. An effective method of ensuring that those of potentially dissident viewpoints are made to be productive but kept away from the rifles!




and it makes for huge profits... I believe that the monthly wage for conscripts is 50 Le plus board


----------

