# Australia...or Canada?



## stephhhhh (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi there, 


I've been living in Australia for the past year and half on a 461 visa (nz family, partner is a kiwi) but I have a Canadian PR. Therefore we intend to move in Canada in the next few weeks... Because obviously my 461 status is never going to get me a PR here in oz. And basically I don't want to be just a "shadow" in a country... I want to have rights and all of them!

Excited to go but I really question myself on whether or not it is the right decision for both of us. 


I would like some opinions on the life here in OZ compared to Canada. 
Cost of living, job opportunities, salaries? 

Thanks for your responses


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## Riza2012 (Mar 2, 2012)

Why you no try to apply for Australia 175 or 176 visa ? 

I have many family in Canada, but i still chose Australia because Canada economy is in the wrong side since it is heavily dependent on the united states. Australia on the other hand shifting its direction towards Asia which is smart move for the next couple of decades..

The economy has been crashing in Canada and unemployment rising quickly, There are v limited opportunities for immigrants in general. A quick search online for jobs in canada will get u v disappointing results try it. All too common for PHDs to be driving taxi in Canada or flippin burgers it v sad.

Another problem is the weather is terrible for most of the year, too cold.

The good part is cost of living is cheaper than Australia, taxes are lower. Australia cost of living is pathetic.

One thing v common about Immigrants to Canada you will see most ppl tell you same story is that once they get the canadian passport, many many go back to home country or migrate to another country with their new passport due to limited opportunities.


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## stephhhhh (Aug 17, 2010)

The thing is I never had any good opportunities here in oz. And I used to live in Canada and always had great opportunities! As I'm French they look for french speaking people all over the place so it makes it easier for me...

But I agree that you can have a good life here in oz as well...


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi Stephhhhh,

Since it sounds like you have both lived in Canada and currently living in Australia, you know what would be better for you and your partner. You have to go where there are opportunities for you and that you can get the rights and benefits of the country. In addition, being able to speak in French is an advantage considering probably the people that were once there have moved on to other countries for other opportunities. Now they have that void.

Hi Rizza2012,
I live in the US and didn't realize Canada's unemployment is rising quickly. Probably because we have our own problems here in the US that we don't hear that much news about Canada even though the countries are neighbors. I wonder why it's the case in Canada at this time when in the US, the jobs per month is slightly increasing which lowers the unemployment.

Your comment about PHDs driving taxis or flipping burgers is not only happening in Canada. It probably happens everywhere like the US and Australia. Many new immigrants end up doing jobs that they would have never done in their own country. However, in the new country, they can't seem to get a job in their profession so they have to get a job in something.

I have read many posts on this forum and others that have new immigrants complaining when they have come to Australia and can't get a job. These are mostly people that received a visa 175/176 which means they have skills. Australia may say they have a shortage. But in a way, I think they are selective in the people they want to hire. You often will read someone posting that they have the PHD, work experience, etc. that fits the actual job. However, they are told they don't have the local work experience. Now what is this skilled immigrant supposed to do? How can someone that just arrived in the country supposed to get local work experience if these companies are not willing to give them a chance.

I guess we all need to understand not to judge people on what new job they have in the new country that isn't what their previous profession was. These people took a risk and I know majority was so that they can have a better life for their family. Many immigrants have gone through this path. It was hard in the beginning. But after so many years, they are able to prosper in their new life. Better opportunities for their children in the new country. I think some countries build up this culture where having a high ranking profession, PHD,etc. make the title so prestige. While other countries know about these titles but really don't care. People would be surprised to know that other professions like plumbers,electricians,etc.. and who have their own business due to some of these professions make pretty good money.


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## Labeeb Ahmed (Oct 16, 2011)

Nice thread, good informative contributions.
Generally its about job and making money, both are good if ur earning exceeds or even matches your expense. Climatically for Asians, Oz is better and for Europeans, Canada can be a good choice.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

jb12 said:


> Hi Stephhhhh,
> 
> 
> 
> Your comment about PHDs driving taxis or flipping burgers is not only happening in Canada. It probably happens everywhere like the US and Australia. Many new immigrants end up doing jobs that they would have never done in their own country. However, in the new country, they can't seem to get a job in their profession so they have to get a job in something.


This is true, I recently read this article:

African doctors are driving Melbourne's taxis




> I have read many posts on this forum and others that have new immigrants complaining when they have come to Australia and can't get a job. These are mostly people that received a visa 175/176 which means they have skills. Australia may say they have a shortage. But in a way, I think they are selective in the people they want to hire.



I also agree that they're selective in who they hire. I think the culprit is really with small to medium businesses (it always usually is) lol. But that's why with the new upcoming points system, (which I believe is a very good system) employers will no longer be as selective in choosing a person's age, gender and general background. 

But, I do wonder what will happen if the employer is not satisfied with their new employee once they find out who they are. Will it be like the 457 where they're let go and given 28 days to find a new sponsor? I wonder.


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## Riza2012 (Mar 2, 2012)

stormgal said:


> This is true, I recently read this article:
> 
> African doctors are driving Melbourne's taxis
> 
> ...


v sad story how skin color decides your fate, Australia sounds like apartheid South Africa or the USA in the 30's. As mentioned in the article the problem with Australia seems to be based on what i read everywhere is RACISM. Basically non whites have a v hard time finding a job despite opportunities being available. Canada on the other hand from countless people's experiences has been mainly due to lack of opportunities in general. Racism is a huge problem in Australia as i read compared to Canada or USA. 

Anyway in this case well since ur french and u mentioned its easy for french to get jobs in canada


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

In regards to the doctors' situation in the article, even doctors that come to the US don't automatically find jobs. I believe majority of these doctors have to go back to do some retraining and take some exams before they will be offered a job that paid the salary of that particular job. The reason being the process and procedures learned from another country might not be the same that are followed in the US. The doctors from the other countries might be used to doing some procedure in their home country, but coming in the US, it might not be what is done. Considering in the US where there is a high number of lawsuits that occur, I'm sure these hospitals needs to make sure these new immigrant doctors are aware of the processes and procedures that the US follows. I personally knew of new immigrant doctors that had to go through this.

As for the African doctors in Australia. It didn't state if all the doctors went back to retraining and didn't get a job. Or they just didn't want to do it because they needed to find work right away. Doctors that maybe coming from the US or Canada might have be more acceptable to find a job in Australia if these countries follow the same medical procedures,etc. I'm sure they might still have to go through some short term training to familiarize what the difference could be with medical procedures.

I guess the discussion should be.. is the discrimination against what country the person is coming from? What if one of the doctors that was discussed in the article grew up and educated and worked in the US and Canada. Then decided that he/she wanted to migrate to Australia. I think this doctor's credentials might be looked differently as compared to someone's credential say from Africa? I don't think it's necessarily the color of the person's skin. But maybe the country they are coming from? Even if you already are residing in Australia and submit a resume. Your work experience and education will tell the HR specialist what country you are coming from. 

Something must be going on in Australia. How many countries in the world has a skills shortage in various professions and industries? It has been going on for awhile but it looks like the Australian government and Australian companies have not yet figured out how to fix this shortage.

If there really is a shortage problem, I don't think they are utilizing the resources they have. There are probably thousands of new immigrants approved for a visa on the skilled migration program every year. The Australian government approves the visa indicating their skills are recognized in Australia. However, when these people start looking for jobs, they are not called. When companies post the jobs online, do they only review the people that applied? If they don't like any of the people that applied, do they bother to check the resumes of many people that have registered in their recruitment agency's database? The same can be applied to the many companies in Australia using their resume database as well? Someone on this forum posted that he had a friend that was a HR specialist. That friend told him anytime he sees an applicant that is applying from abroad, he doesn't bother to review the resume or consider. Is this what Australian HR professionals are being told? Why do that when Australia is in a skilled shortage? That means there are not enough skilled workers in the country. So the only way that you could probably fill the job is to find someone outside of the country? 

Also, when these new immigrants are granted the visa, there is also another resume database they can enter their information for potential employers to contact them if they fit the job posting. Do employers really check this DIAC resume database?

Then I have read on this forum and the internet about immigrants granted the visa 176. This requires the immigrants to live and work in a specific area of a state for 2 years because there is a skills shortage. But then you read how these people can't fight jobs. Now why is the Australian government granting these visas when it clearly indicates that there probably is not a lot of jobs in that area? Are they approving it so these new people can start living in the state and contributing to the economy with savings from where they came from? Just because if they have no job, they are only able to survive with the money they brought over.

The Australian government really needs to communicate with its different state governments along with the companies to determine how to resolve the skills shortage. The Australian government are bringing the skilled people. But it must not be the correct profession or industry experience that they need?

Instead of a employer sponsored visa. Why don't these companies try to find jobs for the people that are already approved for a PR visa? They wouldn't need to sponsor them and they already went through the rigorous process of sending all the documents to have their skills assessed by the specific organization.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

jb12 said:


> In regards to the doctors' situation in the article, even doctors that come to the US don't automatically find jobs. I believe majority of these doctors have to go back to do some retraining and take some exams before they will be offered a job that paid the salary of that particular job. The reason being the process and procedures learned from another country might not be the same that are followed in the US.


This here is very true. I know of someone who came from the Dominican Republic and had to take a continuing ed "bridging course" plus State exams in order to pass her dental boards. She did this and today is practicing her dentistry successfully in California.

Here in the United States, they kind of make it obvious that you can't practice unless you meet the guidelines, meaning by passing the exams and the "bridging" courses along with them. 

The difference though, between Oz and the States is that for one to migrate to Oz, one has to go through a skills assessment, and then they tell you directly whether your qualifications are "suitable" and if your degree is "equivalent" to Australian standards. So why give someone a suitable skills assessment if they're not up to Australian standards? But, then again.... the article does mention that they *do* need to take special classes but they fail to do so because "everyone has big families that need to be fed"

My solution for this would be to have these doctors take and pass the exams before migrating to Oz. It should be an extra step they take, in addition to their skills assessment. 



> Something must be going on in Australia. How many countries in the world has a skills shortage in various professions and industries? It has been going on for awhile but it looks like the Australian government and Australian companies have not yet figured out how to fix this shortage. If there really is a shortage problem, I don't think they are utilizing the resources they have.


I honestly think that the businesses that are facing shortages are very selective in who they are employing. Someone may have a prestigious degree from a very well-known university, but perhaps they don't know how to interview well. Or maybe the person doing the interview doesn't think the person is a "good fit" - for whatever reason. 

At my job, there was a very well-paying position that had been open for a good two years. It was for a Cisco-qualified engineer. The reason why it wasn't filled was straight out lack of skill. People, however, would lie about their qualifications, while on paper they looked stellar and well-qualified. Some people even had the actual certification. But the strange thing was that when you'd ask them a simple question, they would absolutely not know the answer! Even for a stupid question like what's the difference between a router and a switch - they plain would not know. So who knows at this point. It could be a combination of all of the above.



> Instead of a employer sponsored visa. Why don't these companies try to find jobs for the people that are already approved for a PR visa? They wouldn't need to sponsor them and they already went through the rigorous process of sending all the documents to have their skills assessed by the specific organization.


Well, that's exactly why the new system is being implemented. No one will be able to migrate unless they're being considered for a specific job. Just like the current 457's. :confused2:


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## stephhhhh (Aug 17, 2010)

Yes here in oz they're very selective, I could only find a job in a factory! My very first time in such a job... In Canada I used to work in a bank and travel agency...

Racism is for sure a huge problem.

But again it depends where I oz!
Sydney where I am at the moment is just saturated!
Everybody comes here so the competition is high to start with.
But elsewhere is fine.

As for the jobs, my partner is a tradesman and he's making a very good income. Around $2000 a week.

He never lived in Canada, so it's a bit of a risk on his side.

In oz you can make a lot as a tradesman but in Canada you'd make a lot with a brainy job. Would this make sense?


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Steph,
I understand your comment that in Australia that a tradesman can make a lot of money. I met an Australian while on a tour group abroad. She mentioned that the salaries of service people.. example waitresses at a restaurant is pretty good compared to say in the US. The reason we started talking about it was because she told me that it wasn't common to leave tips for waitresses/waiters? Strange concept to Americans considering we are required to leave a tip at a restaurant if we are served,etc. The salaries that these waiters/waitresses are low with the expectation that they will make more from the tips of customers.

However, the salaries of professionals is not so generous in comparison to workers in the service area as you would expect in Australia. I'm sure there are exceptions. But most people comment that salaries from the US or Canada seem to be a little higher compared to Australia. 

It is hard to compare the opportunities vs salaries in Australia to Canada and US compared to the population and size of all the countries. Your partner should be able to adjust to Canada without too much culture shock. If he's traveled to the US, Canada has similar type of surroundings. Of course, differences in architecture, etc. As for weather, yes it will get really cold in the winter months. That's when most people stay indoors most of the time unless you are into winter sports. But most of the housing will be well insulated and heat available. I'm stating this because when I visited NZ about 3 years ago visiting relatives during winter. I was in shock how it was so cold inside the house. Apparently my relatives didn't have heating set up in the house and there was definitely no insulation in the house! They kept their winter coats on and we stocked up in blankets. I didn't say anything. But it was quite different that I'm used to considering when we have the heat on in the house here in the US during winter, we usually don't need our coats on. 

Stormgal,
I believe doctors and other professions immigrating to the US would also have to go through some skills assessment. I don't think the doctors could take the exams before they arrive in the US or Australia. The reason being the exams and training are administered in the US or Australia. The country where the person is immigrating too. However, I think for nurses coming into the US, there are specified countries abroad that the applicant can take the board exams before they get approved for a visa. But for doctors, I don't believe they have the same set up.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Stormgal,

I forgot to mention in my post above about that there is a training program for engineers implemented now in Australia. Read the discussion from a previous post:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...ogram-help-immigrant-engineers-find-jobs.html

I finally found the whole article of what it's all about: 
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

I believe you are in the engineering profession?

As for your other comment about that person that applied for a job and actually didn't know anything about the specifics. I think people need to understand that you maybe able to talk your way in getting through an interview. However, people will realize if you know anything when you start your job and you are asking about basic information that you should already know. My brother told about an incident at his work too. Some guy said he knew this software program. But when they were taking an additional training class, he was asking questions that everyone should already know about.. basic terminology,etc. He was soon fired after he was confronted if he lied about what he knew during the interview and what was on his resume.


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## tian (Feb 25, 2011)

My husband and I moved from Canada and the reason is because we want to get closer to our parent in Indonesia and spend more time with them. When we first moved to USA, it took only 1 week for my husband to find a job as a line cook at a big restaurant in California. Then we moved to Alberta, Canada. With his experience from California, he got a job on the first day we arrived there. After a while he changed his career as a welder. He went door to door to every companies in Edmonton asking if they need a welder helper. It didn't took that long to find it even without any experience. When we moved to Adelaide, he applied for both cook and welder positions. And...ohhhh it took a while to get a job here. He is doing a welder job now, but the money is about the same like the one he made in Canada and the living cost is more expensive here. As for me, I'm still looking for an administration job. It was easier for me to find a job when I was in USA and Canada.

I went to Interlink program sponsored by SA Government for new skilled immigrant. Most everyone has the same problem, hard to find a job. My husband never had a resume when he looked for cook or welder helper job in Canada, he just showed up and told them that he need a job and they told him to start working the next day. 

So Step, if your partner is a tradesman...Alberta will be a good place to find a job.


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## tian (Feb 25, 2011)

jb12 said:


> Steph,
> I understand your comment that in Australia that a tradesman can make a lot of money. I met an Australian while on a tour group abroad. She mentioned that the salaries of service people.. example waitresses at a restaurant is pretty good compared to say in the US. The reason we started talking about it was because she told me that it wasn't common to leave tips for waitresses/waiters? Strange concept to Americans considering we are required to leave a tip at a restaurant if we are served,etc. The salaries that these waiters/waitresses are low with the expectation that they will make more from the tips of customers.
> 
> However, the salaries of professionals is not so generous in comparison to workers in the service area as you would expect in Australia. I'm sure there are exceptions. But most people comment that salaries from the US or Canada seem to be a little higher compared to Australia.
> ...




When it was -50C in Alberta, I could stay warm in the house and I set the house temperature at 16C. Right now, 15C in Adelaide and it's sooooo freezing inside the house. The house is not designed for winter I guess.


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## Riza2012 (Mar 2, 2012)

I think the vast majority here would've applied to Canada instead of Australia if Canada did not change its immigration system back in 2009, which made it extremely difficult to get a PR without a JOB offer in canada. i am right ? but i still think australia has better potential than canada in the next decade.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi Riza2012,

I would agree with your statement about more people would have applied to Canada compared to Australia. The only reason you see a massive application to Australia now is because the country has made it open due to the skills shortage that they claim exists.

It is pretty difficult to know Australia or Canada's potential in the next decade. I know that some people think that what happens to the economy in one country will not affect their own country's economy. Unfortunately, I think majority of countries are affected. It might not just take longer to be affected.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

*Canadian view*

Hi all, 

I've just come across this thread from the newsletter and have read with interest. I am a Canadian who left to work in Australia, and it wasn't because there were not enough jobs. There are plenty of jobs in Canada, in many fields. Doctors and nurses are two of the top careers that Canada is seeking international applicants for in a major way. The problem that some immigrants might face is heavy competition for these jobs in the major cities like Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver. If they are willing to work in smaller cities, rural towns, remote communities - the jobs are a dime a dozen, and the recruitment benefits are often quite high, way more than I received coming to Australia. I have lived in nearly every province and two of the territories in Canada and the situation remained the same in every one of them. If you are looking for a career in business, the situation would be quite different. There is NO shortage of teachers either, so immigrants would be hard pressed to find any work teaching in the schools as many Canadians are hard pressed to get permanent jobs as a teacher. As for the trades - also a reasonable shortage of workers due to the many jobs in the oilsands, diamond mines, and other industry. They will not hire without proper qualifications though. The pay is usually very good and the benefits are stellar. One does not have to live where the job site is, and many companies will fly you in and out from another province to work there on a regular rotation. 

I have found Australia to be quite expensive to live in compared to Canada. I live in Alice Springs, and have so far traveled to WA, SA, VIC, and NSW and found it expensive all over. Housing prices are absolutely ridiculous for what you get, particularly in dinky little towns like Alice Springs. In many rural areas of Canada you can buy a huge house on a chunk of waterfront land for under $100,000. You can't even get a granny flat for that here. 

I loved working in Canada, and simply came to Australia last year for a different experience, and a place to explore as I had already driven nearly every highway in Canada. I love Australia, but will not stay here indefinitely, even though I've already been given PR. I love my home country and I don't think the economy is doing as badly as some have represented it. Not every province is in the same condition at all. This varies from coast to coast, so one must think about where in Canada they wish to live, and what climate they feel they can manage as the climate varies drastically from one part of Canada to the other. When I lived on Vancouver Island, there was mostly rain all winter, and the temps hovered at about 0-5C. When I lived in Yellowknife, Whitehorse and Labrador - it could drop to -50C or colder in the winter. The first two places normally saw less than 2 feet of snow per year while Labrador's annual snowfall could be about 25 feet. 

There is a lot to consider I think when choosing between Canada and Australia and each person probably has different criteria for those choices. I know I thought long and hard about Australia before coming, and have been happy with my choice so far, despite the higher cost. 

Good luck to all those out there looking - jump in and do it! Life is too short not to try.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi Dreama,
May I ask why you don't feel that you will indefinitely live in Australia even though you have been granted a PR? Is it due to family back home and what you prefer what Canada has to offer? 

Everyone's opinion is subjective and is mostly on our experiences and maybe friends' experiences living in the different countries.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

All of my family live in Canada, and in particular, my daughter and we have a pact that she won't settle down and have children until I get back from Australia when she is 30 and I am 50, as I promised her once she did, I would move to wherever she is living at the time and be an involved grandma, lol. She isn't sure she even wants children, but I want to be there if she does. I also wanted to go back to university in Canada, so once I've worked here long enough to pay off my current student loans and save for the next degree, I will be ready to head back to Canada. If I want to come back to Australia, I can, as long as I haven't been out of Australia for more than 5 years. 




jb12 said:


> Hi Dreama,
> May I ask why you don't feel that you will indefinitely live in Australia even though you have been granted a PR? Is it due to family back home and what you prefer what Canada has to offer?
> 
> Everyone's opinion is subjective and is mostly on our experiences and maybe friends' experiences living in the different countries.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks for the explanation. Someone had posted that they have made an update to that 5 yr RRV. I already have a PR visa but just haven't made the move for various reasons. Getting there before the visa expires is on my mind. 

If you stay long enough in Australia, would you consider applying for citizenship? That way, you never have to worry about the visa expiring. However, it looks like you want to live near your daughter to be in her life...


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

I can't see me living here permanently, as I do want to be near family again, mostly my daughter but also my many extended family members, and my pension when the time comes (20 years from now!) is in Canada, and I've paid big bucks into a federal pension, so want to access that. So I plan to make the most out of my years here in Australia before heading back to the motherland. Australia is a great country to explore!



jb12 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Someone had posted that they have made an update to that 5 yr RRV. I already have a PR visa but just haven't made the move for various reasons. Getting there before the visa expires is on my mind.
> 
> If you stay long enough in Australia, would you consider applying for citizenship? That way, you never have to worry about the visa expiring. However, it looks like you want to live near your daughter to be in her life...


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

dreama said:


> I can't see me living here permanently, as_ I do want to be near family again, mostly my daughter but also my many extended family members, and my pension when the time comes (20 years from now!) is in Canada, and I've paid big bucks into a federal pension, so want to access that._ So I plan to make the most out of my years here in Australia before heading back to the motherland. Australia is a great country to explore!




dreama - Thank you for your interesting posts. However, it appears your opinion has some bias. You wish go back to Canada for family reasons and ability to access federal pension. That is good reason for yourself but at present we are trying to compare Australia versus Canada in terms of living standards, and employment opportunities.

I am of Indian origin residing in the United States for the last 12 years and have applied to migration to both Canada and Australia. I am currently in possession of an Australian PR, and have a pending application with Canada. Just last week i was offered a job in field of work in Alberta. I have a hard time making a decision. I am currently on a work permit in USA which expires in October 2012 so i cannot stay where in am indefinitely. 

I am having a hard time making a decision on this, as i do not like the idea of going to Canada on a work permit, and being that there is no guarantee i would get a PR. I am planning to go to Australia, but i do have to look for work over there so that is a whole other story. I do like the peace of mind a PR gives me as i have had a very stressful time dealing with work permits in the USA.

One more thing, i was raised in warmer/ desert sort of climates but i have also lived in the North eastern parts of the United States. I definitely do like warm weather but i can take a little cold not a whole lot of it. 

I do like your advise on one of your posts "about life is too short so jump in and try it " What advise would you give some one like me ? Is it Australia or Canada.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

bs_007 said:


> dreama - Thank you for your interesting posts. However, it appears your opinion has some bias. You wish go back to Canada for family reasons and ability to access federal pension. That is good reason for yourself but at present we are trying to compare Australia versus Canada in terms of living standards, and employment opportunities.
> 
> ...I do like your advise on one of your posts "about life is too short so jump in and try it " What advise would you give some one like me ? Is it Australia or Canada.


 I'm not sure it has bias, but simply an opinion. I was asked why I wouldn't stay in Australia and that is my answer. Most of my posts on this thread have been about what I see as differences between working in either country, as I have worked in both. 


If you are looking to live in a warm climate, Australia is the place to be. Summers are rather short in Canada, and you can't get away from the snow. Vancouver and Victoria see the mildest winters, and the rest of the country can see temperatures well below zero through the winter months. The climate in Australia is probably one of my top reasons for coming here. I have shoveled so much snow in Canada I just couldn't do another nasty winter. In northern Canada it can begin to snow in September right through to May.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

dreama said:


> I'm not sure it has bias, but simply an opinion. I was asked why I wouldn't stay in Australia and that is my answer. Most of my posts on this thread have been about what I see as differences between working in either country, as I have worked in both.
> 
> 
> If you are looking to live in a warm climate, Australia is the place to be. Summers are rather short in Canada, and you can't get away from the snow. Vancouver and Victoria see the mildest winters, and the rest of the country can see temperatures well below zero through the winter months. The climate in Australia is probably one of my top reasons for coming here. I have shoveled so much snow in Canada I just couldn't do another nasty winter. In northern Canada it can begin to snow in September right through to May.



_dreama_ - Thank you for your post. I sincerely agree with everything you have said. Well if one were to make a decision soley based on weather, Australia is a no-brainer. I am sorry i was not very specific, but in terms of opportunities and compensation in the oil and gas, petro chemicals which place is better? A little bit about my educational background, i am an Electrical Engineer working on instrumentation and controls. I have been working in the petro chemical industry for the last 7 years. 

I dont intend to bother you, but would you mind sharing your contact information, so that I can contact you as I have to make an important decision kind of soon.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Hi BS 007

I think you'll find there are jobs in both countries that are equally attractive in their own right, but I think the weather may be a very important consideration. The oilsands in Canada are mostly in northern Alberta where it gets very cold in the winter, and dark for about 2/3 of the day. There are also oilfields off the coast of Newfoundland where the winters can also be very brutal. I lived in Newfoundland for more than 20 years. 

Feel free to send me a private message here as i check my email regularly and we can chat in private. 

I don't know about all of Australia but the mines I am aware of are in the top end of Australia where there is significant rainfall, cyclones, high winds, flooding. It is warm year round, but a humid heat. Many flock from the top end during the wet season because the weather is so miserable.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

dreama said:


> Hi BS 007
> 
> I think you'll find there are jobs in both countries that are equally attractive in their own right, but I think the weather may be a very important consideration. The oilsands in Canada are mostly in northern Alberta where it gets very cold in the winter, and dark for about 2/3 of the day. There are also oilfields off the coast of Newfoundland where the winters can also be very brutal. I lived in Newfoundland for more than 20 years.
> 
> ...



dreama- I am concerned more in terms of opportunity, does it take awhile to find something reasonable in Australia ? I will probably try to limit myself to the capital cities, that would be Brisbane, Perth, Melbourne or Sydney. I am not so excited about going to the middle of nowhere in either countries. 

Currently i have an opportunity that I am sitting on in Alberta, it is in a town with 60,000 people and I would be restricted there only as i am on employer sponsorship. I have lived in small towns in the past, but I mid size city is ideal for me that is some other more than a million people.

The Canadian Government just rejected 300,000 permanent resident application last week, and they are those who applied before 2008 in order to clear the backlog. I applied in 2010 so it doesnt really affect me but i would really like to go to a place where i dont have to worry about all these sort of things as it feels like it sucks the life out an individual.

Now the main question, if you had no family in Canada and weren't concerned about federal pension would you stay in Australia ? I am sure you went through a lot of pain to get an Australian PR.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Actually permanent residency was a breeze for me. I didn't even have to pay for it. I came over on the 457 visa which my employer paid for and once I arrived they sponsored me for the RSMS visa and the only extra document I had to submit besides the application was a fingerprint criminal record check, and within about 6 months when I got the check back from Canada, I had permanent residency granted the same day they received that form from me. I was recruited to come to Australia, so I didn't really have to do much looking. They offered for me to go to one of three places in the Northern Territory - Darwin, Katherine, and Alice Springs. I chose Alice because of the climate. I just can't take the humidity of the top end and all that rain and flooding. 

As for staying, if there was no family in Canada, I probably would consider it, however I come from a very large family, and can't imagine not being this far apart for the rest of our lives. 

As for small cities of 1,000,000 people - you are limited both in Canada and Australia. There are only a few in each. The rest of the country is small town, which suits me just fine. I have done my time in big cities, not really interested at this point - too much noise, pollution, and traffic for my liking. Alice Springs may be in the middle of nowhere but it only takes me about 3 minutes to drive to work and rush hour traffic lasts about 10 minutes when all the government employees leave the downtown core at 4:21pm, ha ha. 

Good luck on your venture. There are a lot of things I miss about Canada, but snow is not one of them. For now I'll take the dryness of the desert sun.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi bs_007,

It sounds like you want to move to a country that can offer you permanent residency. If Australia has already offered that to you, have you tried applying for jobs online? I also have a PR and the HR specialists stated that I should already move there in order to start applying. But I have read about people getting jobs by just applying online and being interviewed over the phone or skype. Get into contact with Australian recruitment companies that recruit people in your industry. Or check out linkedin.com , seek.com.au, mycareer.com.au ,etc..

I guess if trying to apply for jobs online isn't successful, then you might have to move to Australia and see how it goes. If you do move there without a job, just make sure you have enough money to survive without having a job yet. If you do not yet have money saved up, maybe you should consider that job in Canada especially if your US work permit expires in October 2012. When you have significant funds to move to Australia without a job lined up yet, then go for it! 

It's a difficult decision and having your US work permit expiring in October doesn't help. 

Good luck.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

jb12 said:


> Hi bs_007,
> 
> It sounds like you want to move to a country that can offer you permanent residency. If Australia has already offered that to you, have you tried applying for jobs online? I also have a PR and the HR specialists stated that I should already move there in order to start applying. But I have read about people getting jobs by just applying online and being interviewed over the phone or skype. Get into contact with Australian recruitment companies that recruit people in your industry.
> 
> ...



jb12 - Thanks for your input. You hit my point right on the head, I really like the peace of mind a Permanent residency gives me especially since i am a citizen of a country considered third world. I view citizenship of a first world country as a life insurance, as most of these countries have a safety net if your unsuccessful in life. I dont plan on being unsuccessful and hope i never will be, but it is purely psychological. It is also possible i may return to my home country or end up in an another country after i get citizenship. I lived in USA for more than a decade , came in as a student, paid international student fees for 6 years of education, then paid federal, state , social security and medicare taxes while i worked for more than 7 years and in return they want to kick me out of this country. I really feel bad leaving USA and i probably will miss this country. However, I do value the Australian PR a lot and really am grateful to the Government of Australia for giving me a PR, even though i never really lived there, or studied there or worked there.

As far as saving money is concerned, I have enough money to last me over a year being unemployed in Australia. Most of the recruiters i spoke to in Australia want to know if your physically present in Australia before they give you a serious look. I have tried looking for work in Australia through the major websites, but had no luck. It is possible i am not looking in the right places and i quite honestly havent looked very hard , but it is obviously better to have a job to go to than to move there and look as you have uncertainty in mind. I am single with no family or children to support, so i am good in that area.


Plus, this Australia vs Canada thing - Personally the way i evaluate how good a country is solely based on how many of its citizens are living or working abroad. In that regard, Canada has 9 % of its citizens living abroad were as Australia has less than 5 % of its citizens living abroad. After i did some research, i believe Canadian numbers are high only because of the cold weather.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

bs_007 said:


> Plus, this Australia vs Canada thing - Personally the way i evaluate how good a country is solely based on how many of its citizens are living or working abroad. In that regard, Canada has 9 % of its citizens living abroad were as Australia has less than 5 % of its citizens living abroad. After i did some research, i believe Canadian numbers are high only because of the cold weather.


That's a good gauge, but maybe there are other factors: For instance, Australia is considered to be very isolated and I hear it's expensive to travel from and to the rest of the world. So it could also be that many Australians are just attached to their homes/ families and don't want to go through the hassle of paying huge amounts of money to go back. Many Europeans have only left home because of the economy, and that had also been the case in Oz, I think back in the 80's, when many Australians were emigrating. Canada, on the other hand, is near everything, so it's easier to travel on holiday to visit friends and family.

Both Oz and Canada are very beautiful countries, but like someone else had said, it's very hard to get into Canada. But even still, if both countries borders were wide opened - in the end, it would just be a matter of getting adjusted to any negatives and/or positives that are thrown at you. 

I hope things go well for you with whatever you decide.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

Reminds me, someone (a Canadian) posted this on my facebook, and I thought it was soo cute!


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Since moving to Australia, I find I have been able to travel to a internationally more cheaply than I could in Canada to countries that are closer to here than to Canada. Last year I went to Bali, Malaysia, and Cambodia. Fares from the major airports in Australia to Asia are supercheap. 

I agree that high on the list for Canadians moving to Australia is for the climate, as it sure was for me. I was so tired of driving in dangerous winter snow, and shoveling seemingly endless mounds of snow, and living with overcast skies.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

I think for most people the weather isn't the biggest factor in someone deciding to move to one country to another. Especially if that bad weather (too cold or too hot) only exists maybe 3-4 months out of the year depending on how extreme it is. The important thing is the job opportunity and the permanent resident visa that would allow the person to at least get benefits for contributing to the work force.

Stormgal,
Yes, I have read from some people who currently live in Australia stating it is expensive to travel to other countries besides the nearer asian countries. Like how expensive it is to travel from the US to Australia and maybe that is why not a lot people that I know have actually taken a vacation there. Compared to other countries such as European and Asian countries. However, it does depend on the high and low season travel of the specific countries. Example, during Australia's winter months, Qantas Airlines usually has a sale which I did take advantage one time. I paid about 50% less traveling in July compared to if I travel in January (summer).

As for Americans wanting to move to Australia. I don't know if it's necessarily for the weather. I think it's mostly for a new change in environment. As for the data that there are only about 5% of Australian citizens living abroad. It seems kind of a low percentage? Just because how is it possible that Australia has a shortage of skilled workers? Wouldn't that mean majority of their own citizens would have ventured out to work in other countries just because maybe they want to experience living and working in another country due to their country's location? Sort of isolation of the rest of the world except NZ and the smaller countries nearby?

If Australia's own citizens have never left does that mean the citizens are not pursuing the skills that Australia needs? I would probably need to see more data to see how they can have a skilled shortage with their citizens not leaving the country.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

jb12 said:


> Stormgal,
> 
> As for Americans wanting to move to Australia. I don't know if it's necessarily for the weather. I think it's mostly for a new change in environment.


Nah, I don't think so either. Otherwise people would be moving to Cali, Hawaii, Florida or any of those other southern States. I don't find many Americans wanting to move overseas, or maybe people are personal about it. The Yanks expat forums are kind of empty - they're not like the pommies one. But I want to move for a change in environment. I'm one of those. I think it's just good to get other experience, and it makes us more well rounded, at least in my opinion. I want to get to know other people and travel to Asia myself.



jb12 said:


> As for the data that there are only about 5% of Australian citizens living abroad. It seems kind of a low percentage? Just because how is it possible that Australia has a shortage of skilled workers? Wouldn't that mean majority of their own citizens would have ventured out to work in other countries just because maybe they want to experience living and working in another country due to their country's location? Sort of isolation of the rest of the world except NZ and the smaller countries nearby?
> 
> If Australia's own citizens have never left does that mean the citizens are not pursuing the skills that Australia needs? I would probably need to see more data to see how they can have a skilled shortage with their citizens not leaving the country.


Actually, the Australian government keeps tallies on those Australians who have announced a permanent move overseas. And can you believe that the number of permanent departures has steadily increased over the years? Look up the category, "Permanent departure – Australian born" - its amazing in the sense that it makes one wonder why. But maybe they come back after feeling homesick like everyone else.

Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 5. Emigration from Australia


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

jb12 said:


> I think for most people the weather isn't the biggest factor in someone deciding to move to one country to another. Especially if that bad weather (too cold or too hot) only exists maybe 3-4 months out of the year depending on how extreme it is. The important thing is the job opportunity and the permanent resident visa that would allow the person to at least get benefits for contributing to the work force.
> 
> Stormgal,
> Yes, I have read from some people who currently live in Australia stating it is expensive to travel to other countries besides the nearer asian countries. Like how expensive it is to travel from the US to Australia and maybe that is why not a lot people that I know have actually taken a vacation there. Compared to other countries such as European and Asian countries. However, it does depend on the high and low season travel of the specific countries. Example, during Australia's winter months, Qantas Airlines usually has a sale which I did take advantage one time. I paid about 50% less traveling in July compared to if I travel in January (summer).
> ...


Well people belonging to different countries have different reasons to migrate, Americans are actually the least likely to migrate and rarely go for work to other countries. It appears that things are changing though, as few are now heading of to China. 

The Chinese have the largest diaspora of immigrants living in the world, it is about 40 million but these days there are Americans going to work in China. They are not going there as their replacements. 

Aussies mainly move to Great Britain, Greece, some European countries and some to USA, besides that they just stay where they are. Now, that doesnt mean that Britain is booming and they are going there for work, the whole thing is a lot of British living in Australia have dual nationality so when they return home for whatever reason, they get counted as left the country.

Canadians mainly move to USA, Mexico, other Asian countries. USA and Canada are too close to each other and are under free Trade agreement so there is some slack when it comes to Canadian trying to move to USA. The rest of the countries, Canadians go to are people of that countries origin, possibly to rejoin family or whatever else. There are about 1 million Canadians residing in USA and less the 200,000 Americans living in Canada

The reason for skill shortage, up to some extent is brain drain. A lot of science and technology professionals from Canada and Australia migrated to USA during the good old days creating voids in the labor force which is the reason behind skilled migration. It did work out in their favor, there was a report by the Government of both countries stating that for every skilled person they lost, they had atleast three coming into their country. The other reason for skill shortage besides brain drain is GDP growth, due to expansion in economy, replacement of old workers, keeping wages/ salaries competitive for industries to operate, etc.

Things have changed now, USA has very tough migration policies which has created a domino affect on both Canada and Australia. Fewer skilled Canadians and Aussies will move to USA simply because it is harder to move there. Hence, you will notice the Canadian and Australian skill programs will get tougher as well as they will need fewer workers from overseas.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

For me, weather was important. I could only earn high wages if I lived in the northern territories of Canada where winter starts in September and ends in May, quite a bit more than 3-4 months of undesireable weather. I spent three years up north and had my share of bitter cold, long dark nights, and 4 week summers. I didn't leave Canada because I couldn't get a job as every office I worked in had a shortage of workers. I simply wanted to experience life in another country, explore as much as I could while I'm here, work with a different poplulation of people, and boost my skillbase. There continues to be a shortage of social workers in Australia, which is why my profession is still on the list here. I remember when I first graduated from uni oh so many years ago, it was not the case, and the wages were poor, the Australian dollar was weak, and they offered little to no benefits. Now it's a very different story. They are recruiting constantly with reasonable benefits. I came to Australia because the opportunity presented itself. I will stay in Australia for a few more years because I love it here. I will leave because I miss my family.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

Wow.. so there are territories in Canada that has winter starting from September to May? In the US, winter is from November-March. But every year it varies when we actually get cold weather and snow. This past winter was actually a mild winter for some states. It was also strange that some states that normally don't get a lot of snow ended up getting a lot. While the most common states didn't get much. When this happens, we fear that the next year might be worse..

We are also have not discussed in taking account of the visas through marriage or family sponsorship. That probably has an affect in how many other visas can be granted per year. In the US, I was told from someone that each country and its different designated profession are allowed so many visas per year. But it probably diminishes when the demand is no longer as high. Example, back about 3 years ago when the economy sort of collapsed in the US due to the situation with the banks that caused massive employee layoffs. Without a job most of these employees would have lost their health insurance plan and likely not going to seek medical treatment if they didn't have to. Due to that, that clearly affected the medical profession with laying off nurses and some doctors. So the high demand of nurses prior to this economic issue diminished.


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## Meaganhawkins (May 5, 2012)

stephhhhh said:


> Yes here in oz they're very selective, I could only find a job in a factory! My very first time in such a job... In Canada I used to work in a bank and travel agency...
> 
> Racism is for sure a huge problem.
> 
> ...


Hi, my name is Meagan and I live in Winnipeg Canada. There are a few things I wanted to answer, first it is only in the extreme north that winter goes until May and it still does not start in Sept. maybe the end of Oct. Our climate varies alot depending on where you live. Our summers are very hot in most places and last at least 4-5 months not 1 month. The other is that our Economy is doing very well and has been through almost all of this recession, one of the main reasons for that is our banking laws are very different and much more regulated than the US. Unemployment goes up and down here like it does everywhere and again it depends on where in Canada you live. Manitoba, the province I live in is thriving and pays Trades people very well, I guess depending on your trade. BUT winter is rough, I can tell you that I was born in Northern Canada and have lived all over Canada though out my life, I love my country but I have had it with winter! I hate driving on ice 4 months a year, I hate that it is so grey for so long, I hate shoveling snow. I am not that into winter sports so I gain 10 pounds every winter. These are some of the reasons we are moving to Australia, I really think my family's quality of life will be much better in Australia, I just think we would be happier in warmer weather all year round. Hope some of that helps.
Meagan


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

I lived in Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Fort Resolution and Goose Bay. I wouldn't consider it extreme north, but winter does last that long. We often had snow in late September and the temperatures would drop and the same snow was still on the ground in May. One year we had only 2 weeks of summer and it was all over. In November - February, the darkness gets a bit much. With only 5 hours of daylight, the nights seem endless. If I did any long distance driving in the winter (which I did plenty of) it was mostly in the dark because the days are so short. What I love about Australia is that the days and nights are just about even, and only change by about 2 hours from shortest day to shortest night. The sun is always up when I go to work...much nicer than a 10am sunrise!

There are jobs in the north in certain professions such as nursing, social work and teaching, and the money is pretty good, as are benefits. If you can stand the long winter, it's worthwhile doing at least once. I lived in the north for about 7-8 years. That was enough for me. When I move back to Canada, I'll be looking to live in either Victoria or Calgary. That's north enough for me.


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## Meaganhawkins (May 5, 2012)

dreama said:


> I lived in Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Fort Resolution and Goose Bay. I wouldn't consider it extreme north, but winter does last that long. We often had snow in late September and the temperatures would drop and the same snow was still on the ground in May. One year we had only 2 weeks of summer and it was all over. In November - February, the darkness gets a bit much. With only 5 hours of daylight, the nights seem endless. If I did any long distance driving in the winter (which I did plenty of) it was mostly in the dark because the days are so short. What I love about Australia is that the days and nights are just about even, and only change by about 2 hours from shortest day to shortest night. The sun is always up when I go to work...much nicer than a 10am sunrise!
> 
> There are jobs in the north in certain professions such as nursing, social work and teaching, and the money is pretty good, as are benefits. If you can stand the long winter, it's worthwhile doing at least once. I lived in the north for about 7-8 years. That was enough for me. When I move back to Canada, I'll be looking to live in either Victoria or Calgary. That's north enough for me.


My first question is WHY would you move back?! And Whitehorse, Fort Res are the extreme north, I was born in Thompson MB and that is the border of the extreme north. I also hate the longer nights in winter and I can't wait to live in a place where that is a thing of the past. Manitoba has alot of jobs right now, the pay may not be as good as Calgary or BC but our cost of living is much lower so it all evens out. When you came back I would look in BC first, Calgary is not doing all the great right now, the jobs have really slowed down there, Alot of the people who left MB thinking they were going to Call to make a ton of cash ended up coming home within the year either because they could not find work or if they did they still could not afford to live there because it was so expensive. Anyway where in Australia do you live? Do you love it? What is the cost of living like? Are the people as nice as everyone say's? I know lots of questions, sorry but I am very excited to get there. NO MORE WINTER!!! Can't wait!
Meagan


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## Meaganhawkins (May 5, 2012)

stormgal said:


> Reminds me, someone (a Canadian) posted this on my facebook, and I thought it was soo cute!


LOVE IT!! So true!


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Meaganhawkins said:


> My first question is WHY would you move back?! And Whitehorse, Fort Res are the extreme north, I was born in Thompson MB and that is the border of the extreme north. I also hate the longer nights in winter and I can't wait to live in a place where that is a thing of the past. Manitoba has alot of jobs right now, the pay may not be as good as Calgary or BC but our cost of living is much lower so it all evens out. When you came back I would look in BC first, Calgary is not doing all the great right now, the jobs have really slowed down there, Alot of the people who left MB thinking they were going to Call to make a ton of cash ended up coming home within the year either because they could not find work or if they did they still could not afford to live there because it was so expensive. Anyway where in Australia do you live? Do you love it? What is the cost of living like? Are the people as nice as everyone say's? I know lots of questions, sorry but I am very excited to get there. NO MORE WINTER!!! Can't wait!
> Meagan


Heh heh, I know, I'm not ready to leave Australia just yet, but eventually want to be near my family again, and have plans to pursue another degree at either U of A or UBC., so won't be looking for a job for the first while. I usually have no trouble in my field though, there always seems to be a shortage of social workers. I am living in Alice Springs right now. I really love Australia, I have to say and I've seen a fair bit of it already. The cost of living can be rather expensive, but I managed to find a reasonably priced flat here. The cities are known to be quite expensive. I have friends in all the cities and they pay a fair bit to buy a house, and it can be pricey to rent. For the most part, Australians are quite friendly, at least that has been my experience. I had no trouble making lots of friends, depsite the transient nature of my job and of Alice Springs. I've found Alice Springs to be very multicultural as well, so many of my friends I've made are not from Australia, but all over the world. 

I feel ya on the winter. We are heading into winter here, and I am super excited about winter in central Australia. Probably better than any other part of Australia in my humble opinion. No rain, 25-30C by day, and 5-10C by night. Awesome. Warm enough in the day to really enjoy it and cold enough at night to snuggle deep under the covers for a change. Knowing it was coming was what got me through the 43C days of summer. :clap2:


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

Okay: Now the million dollar question, I really wish to ask people currently living in Australia especially dreama and jb12. Should i take the Canadian job and cross my fingers and hope i get a Canadian PR or should i take a chance and go to Australia and look for work ? My Canadian job offer has a time limit on it, so i have to take it or leave it by Wednesday.

I am currently leaning towards going to Australia because i have a PR. But are jobs easy to find in Australia, or does it take awhile to find something suitable in petrochemical industry ? I am in the oil and gas industry and work as an Electrical engineer with about 7 years of work experience in USA. Also, I am "foreign" looking with a "foreign" name not sure if that helps but thought i would put it out there.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm still not in Australia yet due to some financial commitments like owning a house in a bad housing market.

Hmm.. I was going to say try to apply online for Australian jobs and see how it goes. However, since you have to decide by Wednesday, you wouldn't be able to know yet.

If I was in your shoes right now, I probably would proceed in taking the Canadian job. Just because you have a US work permit scheduled to expire in October. Not sure if it is easier to get jobs in your field in Canada to replace this other offer that quickly? Maybe work there for a year to see if you would like living and working in Canada. But most importantly, what is the prospect of people being granted PRs.

When you get your information, while still living in Canada, just try to apply for Australian jobs online to recruitment agencies or online job websites such as seek.com.au to see what your prospects could be. I don't think you necessarily have to move to Australia quite yet. Just see how it goes. Someone recently just posted that he finally got a job offer that met his requirements after getting so many rejections. He was able to do it while still in India. So it is possible depending on your specific experience and work experience.

I think you mentioned that you went to school in the US and later started working in the US. I think companies would focus more on what you did and if it is comparable to what is being done in Australia. There are many foreign names but the person could be born/raised/educated in the US or Canada and that should not count against them. For the most part, I think companies want to get the candidate that has the qualifications and skills they need to do the best job for them.

It also will not hurt that you will obtain work experience in Canada to add to your resume when you finally apply for an Australian job in the future. 

If after a year of working in Canada and you still have this feeling and wanting to go to Australia because you already have a PR and are not successful in getting an interview,etc. offshore, then you will need to make a decision to move to Australia without a job. I've often read various answers of how long some people take to get jobs. I think it all depends how you strategize who you contact and jobs you apply for. The more open you are for applying to more cities than one specific, then you will likely increase your chances. Give yourself a timeline such as 6 months,etc. You did state that you had money to survive in Australia up to 1 yr. After 6 months have passed and you are not having luck, then you can decide what you want to do next.


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

I agree with jb12. If you go to Canada now, the weather is just getting to be it's best, and you can apply for Australian jobs while working and living in Canada. If it doesn't come about for Oz, well, you're already settled into Canada before your US PR expires. 



jb12 said:


> I'm still not in Australia yet due to some financial commitments like owning a house in a bad housing market.
> 
> Hmm.. I was going to say try to apply online for Australian jobs and see how it goes. However, since you have to decide by Wednesday, you wouldn't be able to know yet.
> 
> ...


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

jb12 said:


> I'm still not in Australia yet due to some financial commitments like owning a house in a bad housing market.
> 
> Hmm.. I was going to say try to apply online for Australian jobs and see how it goes. However, since you have to decide by Wednesday, you wouldn't be able to know yet.
> 
> ...



Jb12 - Your advise is quite rational and well grounded, and is probably what i am going to do for the reasons you have mentioned. There are some other things to consider that are going on in my mind as i thinking hard about it, the Canadian employer has a relocation clause in it stating I would have to pay them money back if i were to leave the company within two years. It appears the amount decreases progressively as time gets closer to two years. The Employer is a good size company and appears to be a good offer of employment so there is no reason to look for other jobs in Canada. I am little upset with the size of the town, it has only 60,000 people in it and the fact that i am on a work permit as i cannot switch employers easily if things dont work out well. I am not sure if you are aware, in the US if you are on a work permit, and you get separated for whatever reason from employment you are given 30 days to leave the country so I am assuming Canada is similar to this. I would not face this problem in Australia.

Besides that, I tend to move a lot, I lived in three different continents in my 31 year young life and lived in more than 7 cities and quite honestly I am not so excited about moving around the world as much. Money isnt an issue for me as I was prepared for this day, and have saved a bunch of money being paranoid about living unemployed in Australia for 3-6 months. Having said that, it is not fun being unemployed, i have been unemployed for a couple months in the past. I am not so picky about a town or a place in Australia, i just like the character of Brisbane. But i will probably move anywhere in Australia for decent employment. The only thing that haunts me, is whether i will find something suitable in Australia at all but i guess there is no way to now for sure until i go there. 

Jb12 - I do feel for you, I am glad i never bought a home in USA. I thought it was possible to walk away from your house, if you have been foreclosed. I think it takes toll on your credit history and if you are moving to another country your going to start from scratch anyway.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

It is understandable that companies that have the relocation clause. I'm sure it's due to people leaving one company for another for various reasons. 

I guess the final decision will be up to you since have looked at all angles. As long as you move to Australia before your PR visa expires, you should have that time to decide what you want to do. I still have about 3 yrs left before mine expires.

As for the housing situation, there have been many stories of people having to file for foreclosure,etc. I think some people are forced in this situation due to losing their job. But then there are others who do walk away just because the terms on this mortgage has changed and they no longer can afford it. Then there are others who do the short sale just so they can get out of their old house and move into a bigger cheaper house. Two coworkers have done this and both of these people and their wives have jobs. They could afford the mortgage but wanted to get a bigger house. So this meant that they were waived from having to pay like $100k,etc. But starting next year the US law will be changing that if a person is waived from not being responsible for paying the difference, they will get taxed the amount because it's like income. I guess right now, it doesn't get recorded as income. The wife of one of these coworkers had 200 points deducted from their credit history. 

I'm not the type to walk away from my house and would have to handle it the legal way. Even though I would like to move to Australia, I am still a US citizen. I want to be in the good side of the law considering I will have a pension to look forward in the future from my current company and have contributed to the US social security system. Although, there is news that sometime in the future, there might not be any money left in social security. I know it's likely not going to be much, but it will be something  With the way it works in the US, these big banks could cause a lot of problems for people if they don't get their money if there was no documentation of any agreement by them to waive payment,etc. 

It is the reason of these foreclosures and short sales that have caused the housing market to tumble. I can never say that I will not come back to the US if I have the opportunity to get to Australia since my immediate family is located in the US.


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## Meaganhawkins (May 5, 2012)

dreama said:


> Heh heh, I know, I'm not ready to leave Australia just yet, but eventually want to be near my family again, and have plans to pursue another degree at either U of A or UBC., so won't be looking for a job for the first while. I usually have no trouble in my field though, there always seems to be a shortage of social workers. I am living in Alice Springs right now. I really love Australia, I have to say and I've seen a fair bit of it already. The cost of living can be rather expensive, but I managed to find a reasonably priced flat here. The cities are known to be quite expensive. I have friends in all the cities and they pay a fair bit to buy a house, and it can be pricey to rent. For the most part, Australians are quite friendly, at least that has been my experience. I had no trouble making lots of friends, depsite the transient nature of my job and of Alice Springs. I've found Alice Springs to be very multicultural as well, so many of my friends I've made are not from Australia, but all over the world.
> 
> I feel ya on the winter. We are heading into winter here, and I am super excited about winter in central Australia. Probably better than any other part of Australia in my humble opinion. No rain, 25-30C by day, and 5-10C by night. Awesome. Warm enough in the day to really enjoy it and cold enough at night to snuggle deep under the covers for a change. Knowing it was coming was what got me through the 43C days of summer. :clap2:


I have heard that the Brisbane area does not get as hot in summer or as cold in the winter. Is that true? Is it easy to travel around Australia? I was thinking that we would probably spend the first couple of years just exploring Australia and then start to travel the rest of the world. I have spent time in Bali and I loves it there more than anywhere else I have ever been, so we might have a few vacations there in between. I have to admit that I do have some fears about this move, I will miss my family and in person I am pretty shy so it is not easy for me to go out and meet people. I am also worried if my kids will have a hard time adjusting because they are older (18 & 13 years,2 boys) Do you find that things like food and cloths or general household items are more expensive there? Does it vary greatly from one area to another? I don't know if you have kids but do you know if the school system is similar to Canada? My little sister went to high school in Perth but it was a private high school so I do not know if it is really different from a regular high school. Did you do all your visa paper work on your own or did you get professional help. I found a place that will help us with it but they charge $3000.00 so I was wondering if it was worth it? If you have any other tips or things you think I should know please let me know. Thanks. Meagan


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Hi Meagan,

I think Brisbane generally has the same temperatures year round, but they do have a we season like the top end of the NT, and that makes for some pretty spectacular thunderstorms and cyclones on occasion from what I hear. I have some friends who live there, but haven't not yet made it there as my plan to go last month was thwarted by the flooding and rain storms. It is easy to travel around Australia by car, but be prepared for long distances of very empty road. While Australia is not nearly as big as Canada, there are still several long hauls of absolutely nothing but outback and the very occasional roadhouse. I've driven through WA, SA, VIC and NT so far, and the roads are in really good shape, even the bush roads for the most part. 

As for meeting people, there are so many ways to meet people here in Australia because it is so multicultural and the Aussies seem to be super friendly. Just join a group of some sort and you'll meet lots of folks. If your kids are into sports, there is an utter abundance of sports no matter where you move. With such good weather year round, they can play outdoor sports all the time. 

Some household items are rather cheap, while others are outrageously expensive. Sometimes it just doesn't make any sense, so I've learned to swallow it and buy cheap when I can. Things are generally expensive in Alice Springs due to its remoteness, but I've shopped in Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne and prices are pretty reasonable if you show around. 

I have a daughter but she is all grown up and living her life in Edmonton, Alberta. The only thing I know about the school system is the school year is absolutely different from Canada and the US. The school year starts in late January, and they go until April when there is a 2-3 week break. Then they go back until July, another 3 week break. Back again until late September, then another 2 week break, and then off at Christmas for 6 weeks. Not all states/territory run the same schedule. Schooling will differ from bush community to town/city schools, vastly. You could probably check out the school board websites to see what they're all up to. 

I did all of my own paperwork, and the only cost I had to pay upfront was the visa application fee and the medical exam, which was reimbursed by my employer once I arrived. Oh, and I had a crim record check from the RCMP and that was cheap. I found the forms to be pretty simple to fill out, just a bit time consuming is all.

If you want to check out how things have been for me since my arrival and in the weeks leading up to it, check out my blog at Australia: Tales from a Canadian Nomad. I did write a bit about preparing to come to Australia and then once I landed, things I learned, differences, etc.

Good luck and feel free to ask me anything. 



Meaganhawkins said:


> I have heard that the Brisbane area does not get as hot in summer or as cold in the winter. Is that true? Is it easy to travel around Australia? I was thinking that we would probably spend the first couple of years just exploring Australia and then start to travel the rest of the world. I have spent time in Bali and I loves it there more than anywhere else I have ever been, so we might have a few vacations there in between. I have to admit that I do have some fears about this move, I will miss my family and in person I am pretty shy so it is not easy for me to go out and meet people. I am also worried if my kids will have a hard time adjusting because they are older (18 & 13 years,2 boys) Do you find that things like food and cloths or general household items are more expensive there? Does it vary greatly from one area to another? I don't know if you have kids but do you know if the school system is similar to Canada? My little sister went to high school in Perth but it was a private high school so I do not know if it is really different from a regular high school. Did you do all your visa paper work on your own or did you get professional help. I found a place that will help us with it but they charge $3000.00 so I was wondering if it was worth it? If you have any other tips or things you think I should know please let me know. Thanks. Meagan


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

jb12 said:


> As for the housing situation, there have been many stories of people having to file for foreclosure,etc. I think some people are forced in this situation due to losing their job. But then there are others who do walk away just because the terms on this mortgage has changed and they no longer can afford it. Then there are others who do the short sale just so they can get out of their old house and move into a bigger cheaper house. Two coworkers have done this and both of these people and their wives have jobs. They could afford the mortgage but wanted to get a bigger house. So this meant that they were waived from having to pay like $100k,etc. But starting next year the US law will be changing that if a person is waived from not being responsible for paying the difference, they will get taxed the amount because it's like income. I guess right now, it doesn't get recorded as income. The wife of one of these coworkers had 200 points deducted from their credit history.
> 
> I'm not the type to walk away from my house and would have to handle it the legal way. Even though I would like to move to Australia, I am still a US citizen. I want to be in the good side of the law considering I will have a pension to look forward in the future from my current company and have contributed to the US social security system. Although, there is news that sometime in the future, there might not be any money left in social security. I know it's likely not going to be much, but it will be something  With the way it works in the US, these big banks could cause a lot of problems for people if they don't get their money if there was no documentation of any agreement by them to waive payment,etc.
> 
> It is the reason of these foreclosures and short sales that have caused the housing market to tumble. I can never say that I will not come back to the US if I have the opportunity to get to Australia since my immediate family is located in the US.



Well I think your still at an advantageous position because the new rule that would make individuals pay taxes for the difference in home price has not kicked in it. This year would be the right time to walk out of it, I seriously doubt if US Govt will take money from your Social Security checks in future for inability to pay mortgage or for being foreclosed upon. I am not sure how old you are but retirement is a long way for me to think about. 

I am not sure, if you have a good reason to even leave America. Personally I think USA is a better country to live in, but due to my personal situation Australia is better for me. I think USA has lot more opportunities that both Canada and Australia combined, I know if you watch too much TV it seems USA is down the tube but it really isn't. Personally, if i had a green card I would never leave USA except to only visit or move temporarily but never actually move to another country.

If you have had your Australian PR for more than 2 years and have still not left, I doubt if your ever going to leave. I think your going to just stay here. I was tempted to leave immediately last year when i got it, but I made a visit earlier this year and was planning to move this October. That would be about year from the date of grant.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

It's a lot more complicated situation regarding abandoning a house,etc. Example, a person has to be approved to do a short sale. This is in regards to that shortage if what a person may owe from the mortgage compared to what they get for the same after realtor fees are deducted,etc. The selling price of a house on a short sale is a lot lower than a normal sale of a house. Example, the house is currently valued in the market as say $70k. On a short sale, the price would be around $30k so it can be sold quickly. The person selling the house would have to be evaluated to determine if they qualify for the short sale. They look at your assets and your debts. There are some companies out there that specifically handle the short sales. I think it is all how you can package the situation. The person that I know of was married to a woman who was in the medical field. She had filed for the short sale stating she still had college loans to pay for and was getting married. But she had a salary that is 6 figures. She had purchased a condo and it wasn't that expensive. However, she was approved.

The US Govt is not the one to take take out money. But it would be the banks that you owe the money if you don't get an agreement or approval that they will waive the shortage in payment. I found out too that it is possible for these banks to get people's 401K if they really wanted to. Just because the safety net that banks can't get a person's 401K investment only applies to foreclosures and bankruptcies. Don't know the exact details but that is what my coworker's wife was threatened with.

Also, getting 200 points lost in a person's credit history is not that good either unless you have someone like a husband or wife to assist in them being in the rental agreement if you decide to rent an apartment, purchase/lease a car, or purchase another car. I've also been here in the news that some people have lost job offers because the company researched their credit score and it wasn't as high as they probably wanted to. They probably felt that if they don't have a high credit score, they are not a responsible person. Of course we know that some people have fallen on hard times and may have lost their job. However, I don't think anywhere in the report does it state this. It just shows you haven't paid your bills.

The reason for me in wanting to move to Australia is not that I think Australia will give me a better life. I'm just looking for a change. The move could be temporary if I decide it's not for me or longer if I really like it. Interesting comparison of what you are stating that US has more opportunities than both Canada and Australia combined. There is actually a post that there was this big discussion if Australia was better than the US and vice versa. But can you truly compare the two considering the difference in size of the countries? It's that common phrase people often use, you can't compare apples to oranges.

I do agree that the US is picking up in the jobs market. However, it seems there are still people unemployed even in the professional sector. It's pretty difficult to determine if it's because these people are not willing to venture out of state due to family situation or they don't specifically have the experience needed for the current jobs in their local area. 

I think if I didn't have these financial commitments tying me down, I would have tried the first year that I was granted the visa. However, it seems that the salaries in Australia is not that much higher or actually a little lower than I expected compared to the US. I've read other posts of Americans who are currently living in Australia making this comment as well. I wouldn't be able to pay my loans here in the US while trying to live in Australia. Plus, I have researched that the cost of living is a lot higher than what I am used to where I live. 

So it might turn out that way that I may stay here.. unless I am able to sell this house and figure out the payment issue. I was even holding out not purchasing a new vehicle when the visa was granted. But then my older vehicle kept having problems this year. Got tired of fixing it and proceeded in getting a lease. Something I was trying to avoid getting another monthly payment for shorter time than purchasing it.

However, sometimes when you are given an opportunity, it's one of those things that you don't want to regret later. Maybe that is why I haven't completely turned down the thought of moving. 

It sounds like you are proceeding ahead to Australia this year since you are tired of moving around  

By the way, I'm not close to retirement either.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

jb12 - I hear your opinion but I feel you really dont have a strong reason to move to Australia, not sure if you have paid attention to the immigrants coming into this country. Most of them come from war zones who are happy just to be alive and leave their countries, and the rest come from low income countries who seek better quality of life and more opportunities. The ones who come from war zones never return to their countries, but the ones who come from low income countries always have returning home stuck in their minds. 

I know many immigrants personally and they are often quite emotional about going back, but just cant adjust back home to their lower standards of living which makes them stay put here.
As far as your reasoning to try something different, I think you should try Brazil, China or some middle eastern country. As those countries have alot going for them and it is possible when you return back to the USA, that experience may help you. Australia is different that USA but they have similar procedures, and protocols.

Well i have an Update on my Canadian job offer : I took a chance when i was negotiating with them, i didnt ask for increase in salary or bonus, i negotiated on the relocation package, I asked them to change it from a two year clause to one year. I think i send a bad message to the company that way as it may appear to them that i may not be interested in staying over there in the long term. Anyways, i thought it was worth a shot, much better than just refusing it outright. The company told me to wait 2 days and will get back to me, so if they are really desperate for workers they will be cool with it. 

I think it was a good offer and good place to work, but the town was too tiny(60,000 people !) , I think i would get homesick after 6 months in a town that small and will feel like returning back home besides dealing the extreme cold weather i have to deal with. With a one year clause i will be able to deal with it better, as i am free to leave after one year. I may get my Canadian PR by then if I am lucky and should be able to hope jobs. I think I may appear selfish to them but thats how the world works nowadays


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## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

bs_007 said:


> As far as your reasoning to try something different, I think you should try Brazil, China or some middle eastern country. As those countries have alot going for them and it is possible when you return back to the USA, that experience may help you. Australia is different that USA but they have similar procedures, and protocols.


I think the appeal of moving to a place like Australia for some Canadians or Americans is that it IS different (certainly physiographically and even culturally in some respects), yet it's also very familiar (especially when it comes to language). There's no way that someone can just up and move to a place like Brazil unless they are fluent in Portuguese (or they have a job offer with an MNC down there). That's not realistic.

I know a number of Canadians and Americans that have made the move to Australia because of a desire for "change". They tend to be highly educated and part of the world's growing, highly mobile, professional workforce. They're not necessarily planning on immigrating to Australia for the rest of their lives (although some may do so); they're just looking for different experiences. They may return to their home countries or they may decide to move to another country later on in their careers. This experience is very different from a migrant coming from a developing or war-torn country, where the desire to move to a western country may be more out of a hope for a better life for themselves and their children.

It's interesting though - there was an article in the New York Times (I think) about how a lot of American-born children of Asian immigrants are actually moving back to their ancestral homelands because there are more opportunities over there.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

ozbound12 said:


> I think the appeal of moving to a place like Australia for some Canadians or Americans is that it IS different (certainly physiographically and even culturally in some respects), yet it's also very familiar (especially when it comes to language). There's no way that someone can just up and move to a place like Brazil unless they are fluent in Portuguese (or they have a job offer with an MNC down there). That's not realistic.
> 
> I know a number of Canadians and Americans that have made the move to Australia because of a desire for "change". They tend to be highly educated and part of the world's growing, highly mobile, professional workforce. They're not necessarily planning on immigrating to Australia for the rest of their lives (although some may do so); they're just looking for different experiences. They may return to their home countries or they may decide to move to another country later on in their careers. This experience is very different from a migrant coming from a developing or war-torn country, where the desire to move to a western country may be more out of a hope for a better life for themselves and their children.
> 
> It's interesting though - there was an article in the New York Times (I think) about how a lot of American-born children of Asian immigrants are actually moving back to their ancestral homelands because there are more opportunities over there.


Hi Ozbound12,

You clearly explained the "something different" that I'm talking about . There would be a small percentage of the people you described that would just move to a country like Brazil without knowing the language or have a job offer especially if the reason is not to make a better life for themselves. They just want a different experience. This wouldn't be the people that are moving to another country due to wife/husband,etc. Just either on their own or with their significant other.

Since people reading and participating on this forum are from different countries, we all would have a different perspective of what "something different" would be.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm one of those people who want to do "something different". I feel as if I'm growing old without having done anything but the routine. But sometimes people stop and tell me that I'm making a mistake in the sense that if I don't' like it in Oz, that if I change my mind and move back to the US I may not find a job due to the bad economy or otherwise have it as comfortable as I have it now. Their concept is, "If it aint broke, don't fix it". What do you think, jb12 - has that thought ever crossed your mind?


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## JBY (May 17, 2011)

Sorry to butt in , Personally i don't believe anyone needs a strong reason to do anything, yes sometimes you have to find the right balance so you don't screw up your future for obvious reasons, but you can never ever know if something is right or wrong for you unless you try it. Some people truly need to immigrate due to personal circumstances (war, poverty, economy, lack of oppurtunity, opression, etc) and some want change and some simply "cuz they feel like it" . 

Stormgal in your case honestly i respect that, i too hear the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" term alot from people who i discuss immigration with, i'm very ambitious in nature and in my opinion Humanity would've never progressed and prospered if we followed that ideal, we wouldn't be exploring space & curing vast majority of old diseases if we always had that thought process. 

Australia may or not be a good place to be at now and in the near future, i'm hoping it will be, its a young nation, with great potential and a growing economy thats increasingly trading with rising asian nations, and in need of people from all over the world to come together and share their skills, knowledge and cultures.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

JBY,
I agree with what you stated above. You never know what the outcome will be unless you try.

Stormgal,
Yes, I had immediate family and some relatives who didn't agree with my desire to move. I can't remember if anyone clearly stated to me "Are you crazy?". But I know they are just looking out for my benefit if it doesn't work out and I'm left with losing what I have worked hard to have now. Of course, this also has been on my mind. That is why even though all of the Australian HR reps told me that it is desired to already move to Australia to get interviewed for jobs, I will not be quitting my job to move to Australia without a job already lined up. Most people have done this because in their specific circumstance they need to do this and will risk it. We've read the stories on this forum. Some have good and some have bad heartbreaking stories that people can relate to. 

I'd say go for what will make you happy. For myself, if I make the move it will likely be for long term. I'm aiming to start my new life with new experiences and that will be to meet new people and learn a different culture than what I am used to. The great thing about Australia is that there are aspects that remind me of what we have in the US. This will help in not being homesickness as much. Although I've read that many Americans who are currently living in Australia have complained about certain things are not available. But what will differentiate is the culture and the people.

Probably the difficult part is if you don't end up liking Australia and trying to move back to the US. The success of finding a job going back is probably dependent on your age, profession, industry, and if your work experience/education matches the job openings. As we all know in the US, some people are having a difficult time finding a job even when they have the skills. 

I would say if you are/were in your 20's then moving to Australia to get a new experience in work and culture for a couple of years is good and head back to US. But once we start reaching 30's - 40's for skilled workers, it should be for longer term just because I'm sure the majority are thinking about money put away for retirement having health insurance,etc. A lot more at stake compared to some people in their 20's. Just my opinion on this matter.


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## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

I think part of the "are you crazy?" mentality that some might experience is due, in part, to the fact that less than 2 percent of American citizens (not working for the government) live abroad, while among UK citizens that number jumps to about 9-10 percent (and increasing as things get progressively worse over there). No one has said explicitly to me "are you crazy?" when I talk about making the move to Oz; I think most of my friends and family are excited for me and have been very supportive (which has been really helpful and comforting). In my field, the job market has been especially dreadful with no prospects of improvement in the near future, so that might be part of it too.

I'm planning to make the move without actually having a job lined up, although I'm hoping to be able to work for my current company remotely, at least part-time.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

JBY said:


> Australia may or not be a good place to be at now and in the near future, i'm hoping it will be, its a young nation, with great potential and a growing economy thats increasingly trading with rising asian nations, and in need of people from all over the world to come together and share their skills, knowledge and cultures.


Is this a prayer or does it feel like that way in Australia if your already living there ? 


I understand there is a skill shortage in Australia, but not sure how much of it is in real time. The Government has opened its doors to overseas skilled graduates, do you know of people who have moved over there and found jobs in a matter of weeks or a few months ? 

If so, would you mind sharing their credentials or work experience backgrounds as it will give us all some confidence 


One more thing - This for people viewing this forum who are in Australia or will be moving to Australia in the immediate future, do you all wish to network ? say using facebook or just sharing email addresses so in that we could all keep in touch ?


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

ozbound12 said:


> I think part of the "are you crazy?" mentality that some might experience is due, in part, to the fact that less than 2 percent of American citizens (not working for the government) live abroad, while among UK citizens that number jumps to about 9-10 percent (and increasing as things get progressively worse over there). No one has said explicitly to me "are you crazy?" when I talk about making the move to Oz; I think most of my friends and family are excited for me and have been very supportive (which has been really helpful and comforting). In my field, the job market has been especially dreadful with no prospects of improvement in the near future, so that might be part of it too.
> 
> I'm planning to make the move without actually having a job lined up, although I'm hoping to be able to work for my current company remotely, at least part-time.


In regards to my family, I think they question the move because I've worked for my company for a number of years and get the nice benefits,etc. Most of what a professional person achieves for,etc. To move to a new country means sort of starting over again. Not that it isn't possible. Just a lot farther and different laws to learn about compared to just moving to another state. I realize there are probably different laws between the states. But moving to Australia, not familiar at all with the different cities, companies (telephone, tv cable,etc.).. The job market in my industry is cyclical but was greatly affected in 2009. However, it's slowly has stabilized for now. I see a number of job postings for different positions which is a good sign.

Yes, I would agree that a small percentage of Americans live abroad. I have no statistics on this. The Americans that I know that currently live abroad are people mostly sent by their current companies and are there for a temporary time. Then head back home. But the Americans that want to migrate for a different experience would be small. Just because I think many Americans are content with their live in the US. Actually, I don't think there is a need for anyone if they have a job and can support their family,etc. to migrate to another country. I had/have coworkers that have never even traveled outside of the US for vacation. They talk about it but never really do it. For that reason, with that attitude, majority of people that I know probably would not migrate to another country.


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## bs_007 (May 4, 2012)

dreama - I was wanting to ask you one thing about Australia. Are things in Australia very expensive and unaffordable ? Do they pay higher wages to support those kinds of prices ? 

I am just trying to budget for a move.


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## Australia2013 (Nov 4, 2011)

jb12 said:


> In regards to the doctors' situation in the article, even doctors that come to the US don't automatically find jobs. I believe majority of these doctors have to go back to do some retraining and take some exams before they will be offered a job that paid the salary of that particular job. The reason being the process and procedures learned from another country might not be the same that are followed in the US. The doctors from the other countries might be used to doing some procedure in their home country, but coming in the US, it might not be what is done. Considering in the US where there is a high number of lawsuits that occur, I'm sure these hospitals needs to make sure these new immigrant doctors are aware of the processes and procedures that the US follows. I personally knew of new immigrant doctors that had to go through this.
> 
> As for the African doctors in Australia. It didn't state if all the doctors went back to retraining and didn't get a job. Or they just didn't want to do it because they needed to find work right away. Doctors that maybe coming from the US or Canada might have be more acceptable to find a job in Australia if these countries follow the same medical procedures,etc. I'm sure they might still have to go through some short term training to familiarize what the difference could be with medical procedures.
> 
> ...


 very informative and well written analysis on the subject. Its nice to read this kind of response for us taht are newbie in this forum and making decisions to enter australia.. Many thanks


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

bs_007 said:


> dreama - I was wanting to ask you one thing about Australia. Are things in Australia very expensive and unaffordable ? Do they pay higher wages to support those kinds of prices ?
> 
> I am just trying to budget for a move.


Many things in Australia are much more expensive but others are cheaper. Gas (petrol), alcohol, and cigarettes are right at the top of more expensive. There are higher wages based on where you live, and I've found they are highest in the NT and WA. A lot depends on what climate you want to live as much as how expensive it is to live here.


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## AncientGlory (Aug 23, 2012)

jb12 said:


> Hi Stephhhhh,
> 
> Since it sounds like you have both lived in Canada and currently living in Australia, you know what would be better for you and your partner. You have to go where there are opportunities for you and that you can get the rights and benefits of the country. In addition, being able to speak in French is an advantage considering probably the people that were once there have moved on to other countries for other opportunities. Now they have that void.
> 
> ...


Maybe a bit old post/thread, but I think I can also add something that might help someone. I'm a PhD candidate in Australia and because of that I get to hang out with this PhD crowd a lot. I can share my experience with the PhDs who are doing work in Engineering and IT. I don't get to meet others that much. 

First of all, 100% of PhD students who are working in my lab are born abroad. One of them is a PR all others International Students. More than 90% lecturers in my discipline are also immigrants. I think it is fair to assume most of the Engineering PhDs in australia are not born here. So they come here and they find jobs. Also a PhD could be driving a taxi, but I do not think this would be a long time job in Australia for him. While there is no need for me to work at the moment I would not hesitate at all to do any job, if the need arises.

Secondly I'm a tutor at my university and I do tutoring sessions to students. This is to highlight that even without a PhD, just by being a PhD student I can find some sort of employment (Just couple of hours per week though). Disregard you have a PhD or not jobs are hard. I think for a PhD it is specially hard. The reason is if you want to be a lecturer, you need to find a job in a university and that job market is extremely tough. On the other hand if you want to go to industry, you just have to compete like a normal Engineer with others, with no industrial experience also.

Also mate the point about PhD being a prestigious title in some countries, I totally agree. However you got it the wrong way around in my opinion. I think countries like Australia treat PhDs with more respect. In Sri Lanka, people wouldn't care that much. If you read the Knight's review about student VISA programme, he suggest to the government that PhD graduates are a highly valued asset and the government should keep them here in Australia if possible.


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## AncientGlory (Aug 23, 2012)

Riza2012 said:


> v sad story how skin color decides your fate, Australia sounds like apartheid South Africa or the USA in the 30's. As mentioned in the article the problem with Australia seems to be based on what i read everywhere is RACISM. Basically non whites have a v hard time finding a job despite opportunities being available. Canada on the other hand from countless people's experiences has been mainly due to lack of opportunities in general. Racism is a huge problem in Australia as i read compared to Canada or USA.
> 
> Anyway in this case well since ur french and u mentioned its easy for french to get jobs in canada


I guess everyone has a point of view subjective to their experiences. If racism exists in Australia I have not experienced this for the last three years I've been living in this beautiful country.

I do agree as someone mentioned that people are selective when they select an employee. However I think that is the whole point of an interview. If someone's suggesting that employers are selective based on an applicant's skin colour, I have not seen or heard of such cases yet.

My house mate and best friend is Pakistani. He came here to do Masters, he had no prior work experience, he doesn't have PR and to be honest his technical skills were not that good also. But after he finished his Masters, straight away he got a permanent position in a company. He competed with all the Aussies and got selected for the job. That was the second interview/position he went and even in the first interview he was short listed for the final two. One of my Indian friends got three job offers after he finished. 

On the other hand one of my Aussie friends is jobless for an year now. She does some casual work but is still looking for a permanent position. My girl friend who is an Aussie went to more than fifteen interviews to get a part time job last year (But she is very selective on jobs too). I have foreign friends who are doing good jobs, Australian friends who are doing good jobs, and foreign and Aussie friends who struggle at interviews. 

When I go out with my Australian friends I see them facing the same problems that we face, for example not being accepted to a club, being asked to leave, etc. But the problem is being foreigners we always try to interpret whatever happened to us as a racism thing.

I have a friend who has carved in to his head, the idea that only reason he can't find an Engineering job is because he does not have PR. He is so vehement on this matter and is neglecting the possibility that maybe he needs to focus on other things that might have been the real reasons for rejections. 

Being a foreigner in Australia I encourage other people to come here. If you want something and you work hard enough you can always get it, Australia is no exception.


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## nit.bas (Apr 2, 2015)

Very well said...


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