# estate agents and lawyers fees



## itsmee (Aug 2, 2014)

I have just made an offer on a property. There was a lot of backwards and forwards as it was over budget and stretching us. The owner is a recently bereaved lady who is letting her lawyers deal with things as she is so upset

The agent agreed to reduce their fees drastically to help reach a figure and eventually a sale price was agreed. I then asked how much is their fees and they are refusing to tell me. They said ask the lawyer, who it happens is the same firm and they refuse to tell me also and say it it the owner who pays them

My problem is they agreed to reduce their fees and I want some evidence of this

and secondly, I do not want them picking on an old lady and reaping 10% off her.

Any ideas, surely there must be something I can do, the lawyers after all are working on my behalf as I am paying them


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## ptrclvd (May 26, 2012)

Are you saying you are using a lawyer who works as part of the same firm as the estate agent who is handling the sale? If so can I suggest you rethink that. You need independent legal advice which you will not get in those circumstances. Many of the problems with illegal builds in Spain came about when people used builders/agents/lawyers who were all working together either as part of the same set up or just in cahoots. The probability is the property you are buying is fine....but if it is not your best chance of finding out is by using someone who has no vested interest in the sale. If I have misunderstood your original post (which I hope I have) I apologise.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

itsmee said:


> My problem is they agreed to reduce their fees and I want some evidence of this


Sorry but I cannot go along with you. It really is none of your business. If you want to buy a kilo of apples or a diamond ring, what the agent makes is a matter for the seller and the agent, not the buyer.


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## itsmee (Aug 2, 2014)

When the seller tells me he is reducing his fees then surely he can prove this. I have just spoken to the owner who tells me she thinks 10%.

So there you have it, he is robbing an old woman, he is not a registered agent either

Hope you feel better for supporting this practice.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

itsmee said:


> When the seller tells me he is reducing his fees then surely he can prove this. I have just spoken to the owner who tells me she thinks 10%.
> 
> So there you have it, he is robbing an old woman, he is not a registered agent either
> 
> Hope you feel better for supporting this practice.


If you feel that bad give her the 10% on the side.


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## itsmee (Aug 2, 2014)

Another forum where people cannot read and start commenting off topic. I did not ask if you agreed with me /SNIP/ I asked if anybody had any ideas if the lawyer who I am paying has the right to tell me the fees. I suppose it must be difficult if you cannot read very well or understand simple terms. I am sorry if it was a little difficult, I can try to make it a little easier for you if it is too hard.

I feel bad being lied to by an agent who obviously has not reduced his fees as he said he would, a blatant lie.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't think you have a right to know, sure you can ask but it's the owner who has a contract with them and not you and at the end that is all that matters.
Contracts are a solid legal thing and are in general of no matter to anybody else.

Yes, they are likely telling fibs and if the lawyer wont tell you and they work for the same firm then yes they are probably taking advantage of the lot of you.
Still doesn't change the fact that they don't have to tell you their fees.

If you spoke to the owner why didn't you just ask them if they reduced the fee or did she drop the price?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Sorry to be thick, but if the agent reduces his fees, how does it work out that the seller is being ripped off?


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

The owner will have decided on an acceptable price taking into account how much of what they received they would have to pay to their agent. 

By the agent reducing their fees the seller can lower the overall price but still receive the net amount she was hoping for.

The amount of those fees is between the seller and the agent. It has nothing to do with the buyer or the solicitor (even if he knows the amount he cannot tell a third party - ie the buyer)


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## SandraP (Apr 23, 2014)

I think it might be you, itsmee, who may be getting ripped off, not the seller.
It has been advised many times on here and on some house buying programmes that you should use a totally independant lawyer, not one attached to the estate agents who marketted the property. 
The lawyer will be working in partnership with the estate agents for the benefit of themselves and will possibly tell you anything to get a sale. They will even tell you the property is fully legal when in actual fact it is not.
I hope it is not the case, but you could very well be very unlucky and find the property that is now in your price range will cost an awful lot more money to make legal (if that is possible).


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## ptrclvd (May 26, 2012)

Here,here. This repeats the sentiment I expressed earlier. Not having an independent lawyer is the first step to potential disaster. You would not I hope,employ a solicitor working for an estate agent who was selling you a house in the UK. Why do it in Spain?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

DunWorkin said:


> The owner will have decided on an acceptable price taking into account how much of what they received they would have to pay to their agent.
> 
> By the agent reducing their fees the seller can lower the overall price but still receive the net amount she was hoping for.
> 
> The amount of those fees is between the seller and the agent. It has nothing to do with the buyer or the solicitor (even if he knows the amount he cannot tell a third party - ie the buyer)


So, if the seller is receiving the net amount she is hoping for, how is she being ripped off?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

But that is I believe what the OP is trying to ascertain, it sounds like they think the seller is not getting the net amount asked an instead of saying the seller reduced the price the agent is claiming they have and the OP does not believe them.

I think.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> But that is I believe what the OP is trying to ascertain, it sounds like they think the seller is not getting the net amount asked an instead of saying the seller reduced the price the agent is claiming they have and the OP does not believe them.
> 
> I think.


But why is the buyer concerned ?

As long as he has the deal which he negotiated then its done.

I did say earlier, if he is concerned what the seller is getting, then he can put his hand in his pocket and give her a consideration.

After all, in my opinion, he is happy to waste money paying a solicitor, to in effect make the very straightforward checks which he can do himself, and then just hold his hand when he signs in the notary's office, after the notary has checked to ensure the property is free of debt and able to be sold.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Maybe the seller is just a nice person?
No harm in it I suppose. I can see where he/she is coming from but don't see the point in it.

Personally I would suggest a good lawyer is worth their fee any day, they certainly are the ones that check the property is debt free(amongst a mountain of over checks as well) as opposed to a notary who do often include a clause that they are not responsible if later debts are to be found.
A notary can only work with what is presented to them and if the sellers and buyers lawyers are working together then they can draw up whatever they like.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pazcat, I know I am biased. Working in the legal area all my working life, I have found so few lawyers that are worth their fee. The ones that are, and at the top of their field, are far too expensive for the average buyer (or any other person needing a lawyer) to employ. At the top end are the top QC's but again their fees are incredible, but the rest are pretty poor.

In Spain I would thank the vast majority of those who finished up with illegal properties, and are looking at the possibility or risk of demolition, probably had what they thought were good lawyer. But it seem that did them no good, and they have no come back on the lawyer either. 

I have bought and sold several properties in Spain, both for myself and my son. So far, so good not a single problem. The nearest I came to it was when I was making a loan against a property. On the day of singing, the notary would not go ahead as he found a loan still outstanding. That was resolved in a couple of days and the project went ahead.

I think in UK we have been brain-washed, and even forced by the building societies and banks, into believing property purchase is 'too complicated' for mere mortals, even though almost all transactions are done by clerks in the solicitor's officer and not a solicitor. The Which Magazine, investigated it and said solicitors were in effect a waste of money, and even solicitors, in private, say it's really no difference from buying or selling almost anything else. Who employed a solicitor to buy or sell a car, whatever it cost !


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

larryzx said:


> Pazcat, I know I am biased. Working in the legal area all my working life, I have found so few lawyers that are worth their fee. The ones that are, and at the top of their field, are far too expensive for the average buyer (or any other person needing a lawyer) to employ. At the top end are the top QC's but again their fees are incredible, but the rest are pretty poor.
> 
> In Spain I would thank the vast majority of those who finished up with illegal properties, and are looking at the possibility or risk of demolition, probably had what they thought were good lawyer. But it seem that did them no good, and they have no come back on the lawyer either.
> 
> ...


There's a lot more at stake when buying a house!
You speak fluent Spanish, and also are knowledgeable about the law.
The average expat 's Spanish is not fluent, and some are not aware of legal pitfalls or aspects.Understandably they would be fearful of what to do if there were a problem.
Where's I appreciate that even with a solicitor, there can be problems, what is a person to do when selling their property?


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

extranjero said:


> ..................... what is a person to do when selling their property?


Briefly; There is nothing to do in Spain. Find the buyer, if you have a mortgage notify the bank so they will do their thing, go before a notary (as all must) sign the contract. Take the money.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

larryzx said:


> Briefly; There is nothing to do in Spain. Find the buyer, if you have a mortgage notify the bank so they will do their thing, go before a notary (as all must) sign the contract. Take the money.


If it was that easy, everyone would do it.
As they say frequently here, This is Spain! The main worry is something going wrong, before and at the notary.
Tell me, did you use an estate agent. Sill question, I suppose!


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

extranjero said:


> If it was that easy, everyone would do it.
> As they say frequently here, This is Spain! The main worry is something going wrong, before and at the notary.
> Tell me, did you use an estate agent. Sill question, I suppose!


An estate agent is different, both to find a buyer and to find a property. But not for any of the legal work. Quite often a person I have bought from or sold to thought a solicitor was necessary for them. 

As I said, all those who have problem properties now, or a demolition site, probably had a solicitor !!!

What does a solicitor do? 
Checks the property registry office. If there is a debt that is not registered even he will not know, and the Notary must do the same I think within 24 /48 hours of permitting the transaction. He gets a Nota Simple. . The will give the solicitor the latest gas/electric,/water, IBI etc. receipts, letter from Community president to say you are up to date. The notary ‘s clerk draws up the contract (not the solicitor) and you can only sign in front of a notary. 

Solicitor, why ?

But as I said I am biased, maybe because I have considerable experience of lawyers !


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Before you all get hot under the collar about storms in teacups and people coming on here expressing their contradictory and not necessarily accurate views, it is important to realise that estate agents (unlike the UK) often take a fee from both buyer and seller. Now this agent may well be reducing his fee from the buyer without actually letting on that this is the fee he/she is reducing.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Before you all get hot under the collar about storms in teacups and people coming on here expressing their contradictory and not necessarily accurate views, it is important to realise that estate agents (unlike the UK) often take a fee from both buyer and seller. Now this agent may well be reducing his fee from the buyer without actually letting on that this is the fee he/she is reducing.


Not any more.

There's a nasty practice now, in the UK of the buyer having to pay an" introductory fee" when buying a house, further evidence of estate agents greed, although their fees on selling have a long way to go to match the rip off merchants here.
All this introductory fee will do is prompt buyers to put in a lower offer.
Getting back to the original post, if the seller gets the price wanted, and the buyer is happy with the price, who cares who reduced what!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

When we bought our house in 2005 the agent took his 6% from the seller, not from us. I thyought that was steep, given that in the UK it was 2% or less. But 10% sounds extortionate!

We used a solicitor because we were still living in the UK, and he was brilliant. He found some irregularities at the land registry and refused to complete the sale till it was all sorted. He also sorted out the electricity contract for us, collected our NIEs from the Comisario, ordered the bank draft and lots of other odds and ends. All we had to do was fly over and sign the contract. His fee was 1.5%.

If you live here and know your way around the system then sure, you can probably do without a solicitor. But for us it was essential.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

itsmee said:


> The agent agreed to reduce their fees drastically to help reach a figure and eventually a sale price was agreed. I then asked how much is their fees and they are refusing to tell me. They said ask the lawyer, who it happens is the same firm and they refuse to tell me also and say it it the owner who pays them
> 
> My problem is they agreed to reduce their fees and I want some evidence of this


You don't make it clear in your post what fees you're referring to. I'm going to assume from what you've said that it's probably the estate agent fees you're referring to and not the legal fees, despite the fact that you appear to be using the same firm of lawyers to represent you as are representing the seller and also appear to be the estate agents! 

That's probably the first mistake you're making - it's not at all wise to use the same law firm to represent you as are representing the seller - there's a clear conflict of interest there. As there is with using the same firm who are acting as estate agents. How can they represent both parties' interests in a fair and equitable way?

Nevertheless to return to your original question which appears to be that the estate agent 'come' law firm refuse to tell you how much they have reduced their fees by and refuse to give you evidence of having done so are entirely within their rights to do so.

They are representing the seller here, whatever agreement they have reached with the seller to reduce their fees to the point that a sale can be made to you is absolutely none of your business. That is entirely between them and the seller. You are paying them to represent your interests not for them to reveal to you what agreements they may have reached with the seller.



itsmee said:


> ...and secondly, I do not want them picking on an old lady and reaping 10% off her.


Again, whatever fees the agents/lawyers may be charging the seller is absolutely nothing to do with you.



itsmee said:


> Any ideas, surely there must be something I can do, the lawyers after all are working on my behalf as I am paying them


You're paying the lawyers to represent your interests as a buyer. Not to reveal whatever financial agreements they may have reached with the seller.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> ...it is important to realise that estate agents (unlike the UK) often take a fee from both buyer and seller.


If any Spanish estate agents tried to suggest to me that as a buyer I had to pay him an introduction fee I'd tell them to get knotted in no uncertain terms and would take my business else where. 

I absolutely refuse to countenance such ridiculous terms of business, particularly in the current Spanish buyers market.

Personally I think Spanish estate agents are rip off merchants of the highest order. I recently spoke to my own Spanish solicitor about selling fees for selling a Spanish property and the estate agents fees were by far the highest cost involved. In fact they made up about half of the entire cost of selling. Their fees seem to be 3% for sole agency and 4-5% for multiple agency with €3,000 as a minimum plus 21% IVA. I recently sold my UK property at 1.25% + 20% VAT.

A fraction of the incredible amounts the Spanish estate agents want. No wonder the Spanish property market is in such a mess.



baldilocks said:


> Now this agent may well be reducing his fee from the buyer without actually letting on that this is the fee he/she is reducing.


Well it's hard to tell from the muddled post the OP made.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

When we bought, we used the services of a property finding company who charged us nothing, they made their money by splitting the commission on the sale with the estate agents.

We saw the same property we bought advertised for sale through a different agency from the one the property finder dealt with an asking price of €5,000 more. I have no doubt that if we'd bought through that one, the vendors would have got exactly the same amount but the additional €5,000 would have gone in the estate agent's pocket. That was common practice at the time (11 years ago), for the agent to ask the vendor how much they wanted and then add on however much they thought they could get away with as commission. The agency we bought through was Spanish, btw, and the one charging more was not (surprise, surprise).

We knew someone who bought some years before we did, in the same town, when properties were being sold for prices even lower than they are now. They paid cash, at the notary, and one third of the purchase price went to the vendor, and the rest to the estate agent - how's that for a commission?

We used a lawyer, whose service we were very happy with, and they charged 1% of the purchase price. They asked us to pay a sum upfront to cover the taxes and fees, and on completion there was a balance of €870 left over. It was refunded to my bank account the next day.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Nobody has ever given me a satisfactory answer as to why estate agents charge the extortionate fees they do, compared to ones in the UK, who charge 1-2%
Some say "we have more work to do, we deal with people from abroad"
So what?
taking photos, putting them online and up in the office window, showing people around for 10 minutes several times a day. how does that justify 4% plus vat?
I eagerly await an estate agent to give us a list of all the other things they do that I am not aware of.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Nobody has ever given me a satisfactory answer as to why estate agents charge the extortionate fees they do, compared to ones in the UK, who charge 1-2%
> Some say "we have more work to do, we deal with people from abroad"
> So what?
> taking photos, putting them online and up in the office window, showing people around for 10 minutes several times a day. how does that justify 4% plus vat?
> I eagerly await an estate agent to give us a list of all the other things they do that I am not aware of.


Many do show an awful lot of people around multiple properties without achieving a sale. We looked at some 53 properties in various towns and villages before finding just what we wanted and the distance involved (with a number of agents) clocked up to well over 1000 km.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Nobody has ever given me a satisfactory answer as to why estate agents charge the extortionate fees they do, compared to ones in the UK, who charge 1-2%
> Some say "we have more work to do, we deal with people from abroad"
> So what?
> taking photos, putting them online and up in the office window, showing people around for 10 minutes several times a day. how does that justify 4% plus vat?
> I eagerly await an estate agent to give us a list of all the other things they do that I am not aware of.


I agree the commissions here seem high, but I do think there are some differences. When I sold my house in the UK, not once did the estate agents accompany anybody coming to view it - they simply rang us to make an appointment for people to come and we showed them around ourselves. That's if we were lucky - one couple showed up at 5pm on a Saturday and said "Hello, we're Mr and Mrs xxx"????? Que? The agents hadn't told us they were coming, lucky we were at home.

I know at least some of the agents here get involved with a lot of after sales services too, like changing bills over into the buyers' names, giving them advice about various things they need to do, and helping them arrange builders and other services if they are reforming (although I suspect they earn even more commissions for those introductions, from the tradesmen concerned!).

Just thought of another difference - I am acquainted (very slightly) with a couple of British agents here who both attend overseas property exhibitions each year (in the UK as well as in Russia, Sweden, Norway etc) so they have considerable expenses incurred in doing that.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

I must say I find some comment rather strange. 

When I want to buy something, I decide how much I should pay for what I want and I go shopping in that price range. If can get what I want for less than what I was prepared to pay, then I have done well. If I have to pay what I think it is worth then that is my free choice to do so. I do not give a thought to how much anyone in the process is making.

That is the same whether it's a property, a car, half a dozen eggs, a cancer operation, etc. 

My son in UK is/was today (may have done it) to sign a contract where he and his partners are going to make a considerable. life changing, amount of money. The purchasers, a well large well known company, will not be asking anyone what my son or his partners made. Even if they knew they are not going to pull out. They are doing a deal which suits them. If I buy a house which suits me, at a price that suits me, as I said, I do give a damn who made what. I got what I wanted. 

"Er Mercadona, how much are you making on this can of beans? " " MMM, too much profit I am not going to buy!"

What's the difference can of bean, apartment ?


Is it me who is strange ?


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## ptrclvd (May 26, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I agree the commissions here seem high, but I do think there are some differences. When I sold my house in the UK, not once did the estate agents accompany anybody coming to view it - they simply rang us to make an appointment for people to come and we showed them around ourselves. That's if we were lucky - one couple showed up at 5pm on a Saturday and said "Hello, we're Mr and Mrs xxx"????? Que? The agents hadn't told us they were coming, lucky we were at home.
> 
> I know at least some of the agents here get involved with a lot of after sales services too, like changing bills over into the buyers' names, giving them advice about various things they need to do, and helping them arrange builders and other services if they are reforming (although I suspect they earn even more commissions for those introductions, from the tradesmen concerned!).
> 
> Just thought of another difference - I am acquainted (very slightly) with a couple of British agents here who both attend overseas property exhibitions each year (in the UK as well as in Russia, Sweden, Norway etc) so they have considerable expenses incurred in doing that.


I have just sold a house in the UK and the agents have shown everyone around.I have not seen a single viewer. They had a professional take the photos and got premium listings on the internet.I made sure they knew what I expected and I negotiated a fee of 0.95% (plus VAT). This was with a proper local agent not one of the budget ones. I must say as well their service was excellent . Admittedly at the moment in the UK there is a shortage of property and a number of agents were keen to sell for me but the key I feel is asking for what you want rather than accepting what is offered.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

ptrclvd said:


> . Admittedly at the moment in the UK there is a shortage of property and a number of agents were keen to sell for me but the key I feel is asking for what you want rather than accepting what is offered.


I'm sure the market conditions in your area are as you describe, but in the area I left (Lancashire) and where my family live (Greater Manchester) I would not be able to get the price I sold my house for in 2006, nor the price we got for my late father's house in 2007 (I know, I've checked the sale prices on Rightmove). There is a huge difference between different areas of the country.


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## ptrclvd (May 26, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I'm sure the market conditions in your area are as you describe, but in the area I left (Lancashire) and where my family live (Greater Manchester) I would not be able to get the price I sold my house for in 2006, nor the price we got for my late father's house in 2007 (I know, I've checked the sale prices on Rightmove). There is a huge difference between different areas of the country.


It is not really a matter of price . The property was not in the overheated south east and I got the same for it as I paid in 2007 . The key issue is that there are a lot of agents ,many of whom are struggling. My point is just ensure you are dictating how they deal with your property. If they will not do what you want then it is likely there competitor will do so vote with your feet.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Nobody has ever given me a satisfactory answer as to why estate agents charge the extortionate fees they do, compared to ones in the UK, who charge 1-2%


I guess because

(a) prices here are much lower, and turnover is much slower, so in order to pay their overheads they have to take a bigger share when they finally do get a sale.

(b) there is much stiffer competition between agents in the UK so they use low fees to attract sellers.

(c) in the UK you get the lower rates for an exclusive contract, which tends not to happen here.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> I guess because
> 
> (a) prices here are much lower, and turnover is much slower, so in order to pay their overheads they have to take a bigger share when they finally do get a sale.
> 
> ...


Well said..

A friend of mine sold a studio 18 months ago for 42,000 euros. It was some way from any real estate offices, so more time (and money) to show clients.

The agreed fee was a fixed 5,000 €, so just short of 12%. 

As you pointed out, a low value property needs the same amount of work to sell as a far more expensive one. 

Real Estate agents may not be angels, but for sure they are not charities.


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