# American, repatriating...?



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Hey guys. Wondering if I could get your .02. I hope this is the right forum?

I've been living in the UK for a few years now, and I am seriously considering going home to the US.

Long story short:

I have taken a huge pay cut from what I was making in the US, and it doesn't seem like that's ever going to change when I look at what others are making. I'm not feeling like I'll ever have the quality of life I had in the US. And I don't mean piles of stuff -- that was never my thing. I literally just mean a reasonable home with space to breathe where everything works properly, and maybe I have some prospect of owning someday. The UK is so much more expensive no matter where you go, and wages haven't kept pace at all.

I've found it very difficult to make friends here; the culture is a lot more standoffish than where I'm from or the other countries I've lived in, and even after 3 years, I wouldn't say I've met anyone I'd call close. Seems like a lot of immigrants here stick together because they find it difficult too, but of course, then you wind up losing friends every few months because most expats go back eventually. So I've just never wound up feeling like I have any sort of support system here, or that this is likely to change anytime soon.

For a while, the NHS was kept me hanging on, but it's been going seriously downhill in the past couple years and I'm not sure if it's worth it anymore. I could afford American care back when I was making American wages! I mean, yeah, clearly I know the American system has problems, but I never spent 6 months trying to get a sinus problem addressed like I did here. Am I just crazy? Anyone else?

I just haven't been able to find a place for me where I'm happy here. Maybe it's me, I dunno. But I haven't been able to change it.

My visa is going to be on the chopping block for Brexit, which has caused me serious employability problems and reduced my income even more, and honestly I'm just not sure I'm willing to put the effort in to fight for it and re-apply under an entirely new scheme (assuming I even have that option and they don't just kick me out). I'm wondering if I should just cut my loses and go, ya know?

Have any Americans repatriated and regretted it? Been really happy with it? What was the final straw for you? I'm just having a hard time making up my mind -- I don't trust my own decision-making anymore, with how badly this has gone for me.

If it matters, I'm thinking of moving to Charleston, South Carolina. Yeah, big change of pace, I know. But with no surviving family and all these years of an underwhelming social life here, just being in a friendly culture where people don't look at me like I'm crazy when I try to talk to them is really at the top of my list. I'm from Minnesota, which isn't as reserved as here, but can still take a long time to get to know people, and I just don't want to experience those winters ever again! And Charleston is literally the most friendly city in America, along with being on the upswing economically, so that's sort of the consideration. Well, that and beaches. I like beaches. Oh, and space. Space is nice.

So... thoughts? Wonderful experiences? Reprimanding for being a bad expat? Pep talks from someone who's had the first few years totally suck and then somehow it magically stopped sucking? Whatever ya got.

Thanks.


----------



## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Can I ask why Brexit will affect the working visa of an American?


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bellthorpe said:


> Can I ask why Brexit will affect the working visa of an American?


It doesn't affect my legal right to work (yet). It affects my employability.


----------



## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry, I don't understand either the word 'yet', or why it would affect employability. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really do not understand this.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

There is no magic day when a switch is flipped and an expat is part of a community nor will the Brexit change UK weather. 

Polish your resume resurrect your network. It may take a while to find the right job in Charleston.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bellthorpe said:


> Sorry, I don't understand either the word 'yet', or why it would affect employability. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I really do not understand this.


My entire visa situation is a long explanation, and not very important to understanding my question here.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

twostep said:


> There is no magic day when a switch is flipped and an expat is part of a community nor will the Brexit change UK weather.
> 
> Polish your resume resurrect your network. It may take a while to find the right job in Charleston.


Yeah, I guess I just don't feel like I'm any better integrated into anything than the day I move. What's doubly discouraging is that most expats I've met feel the same. I'm just getting to be done with feeling like my life is on hold.

Yup, I expect it will. A big part of why I'm considering leaving now rather than waiting to see if I can re-apply after Brexit is that if I go now, I still have a nest egg. If I wait 2 years, I probably won't.

I think in a few years though, Charleston will have grown substantially how it's going, and I have a friend there as well, so I'm hoping that will give me a good running start in a city that looks to be getting set to take off.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

London and its expat community and Charleston are two cups of tea.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Obviously, I don't know lilin's visa circumstances, but what I suspect is that s/he is in the UK on a work visa - i.e. employer obtained the visa to enable lilin to work at a particular job and company. Post Brexit (or even before I think), unless there is some sort of status change (based, say, on how long non-EU nationals have lived in Britain), lilin's ability to change jobs would be limited. This happens all the time in other European countries now - usually the tripping point for a residence permit with unlimited work privileges is 4 or 5 years. Otherwise, you work for the employer what brought you to the country. (But you're right - Brexit probably won't change this.)

As for all the other points, just think of the novel titled "You Can't Go Home Again." (I leave it to you to google it if you're interested.)

I lived in the UK for not quite a year and then was forced to return to the US, albeit in the same company and job and location. It very well may not solve your basic problem. (It didn't do anything for me - and it's a big reason I wound up coming back to Europe on my own a couple years later.) The US has changed in the time you've been away. And YOU have changed during that time. Especially where you'll be heading for a very different part of the country where you have (apparently) no ties other than liking the weather (or thinking you do - how do you feel about hurricanes?). 

Moving back "home" after 1 or 3 or 5 years away is like picking up and moving to another country all over again. I suspect the health care system you knew has drastically changed, given the current uproar over repeal, replace or reconfigure what they've got. Have you talked to your friend in Charleston about possibly moving there? What are your job prospects in the area? Strangely enough, when looking for a new job in the US (or getting insurance, or a credit rating), the fact that you have been "away" for a few years can actually count against you. And what is it about Charleston that will make it any easier for you to make friends or integrate? The culture of Charleston is likely very different from what you remember about Minnesota. 

I'm not trying to talk you out of it. Just advising you to think through what you really want to do and why. Talk to your friend in Charleston and ask her what she likes about the place and what she doesn't. It may be a good move for you - or it may wind up being more of the same if you don't take the time to consider what it is that is really bothering you and what moving to Charleston (or anywhere) will do to resolve your issues for you.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

Since this is a British expat forum, then the only Americans you are likely to hear from are those that have returned to the US, not liked it, and returned to the UK or Europe.

Those that are happily ensconced in the States won't be responding.

So, if you feel unhappy about the UK then return home. If that proves unsatisfactory you could always move again.

No other person's experience can ever give you a true vision of what somewhere else is like.

Unless you get health insurance no-one except extremely wealthy people can afford to self insure against major illness in the US .....


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Um, while the ExpatForum may have been started by a Brit, it has become an International forum over the years. We have members and moderators from all over. And BTW, the forum is now owned by a Canadian company. There are some specifically British expat forums out there, but we are not one.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Crawford said:


> Since this is a British expat forum, then the only Americans you are likely to hear from are those that have returned to the US, not liked it, and returned to the UK or Europe.
> 
> Those that are happily ensconced in the States won't be responding.
> 
> ...


With all due respect this is hoag wash! I have yet to encounter a company not offering medical insurance and there are plenty option in the markets.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

As I mentioned in my OP, I have lived in numerous other countries and states, and I am well aware of the difficulties of repatriation. I'm not expected things to be the same, given that I don't even plan to return to my home state.

Obviously I am not trying to relive anything. I am just starting to doubt the effort of the next couple years will be worth the pay-off, given that I am increasingly unsure that I would even want to continue living here.

I am not wealthy and I afforded healthcare fine, even when I needed surgery, both before and after the passage of the ACA. I don't really understand why someone not from the US wants to tell me what the US is like.

I am rather discouraged that most responses seem to have not read my OP, and I have been told I am somehow not allowed to be in an international expat forum. So far no one has even attempted to respond to my OP apart Bevdeforges. Thank you for that though.

Anyway, Bev, re: Charleston, like I said, I am aware it's a small city/big town economy. But it's growing rapidly economically speaking, and it gives me an opportunity to put my investments in something ahead of the curve.

In the immediate term, I don't have to be overly stressed about work. I'd be landing with a decent-paying freelance gig and a nest egg. The economy for my profession is the same as most places: mediocre. I don't have the sort of skills that tend to undergo major swings of desirability; it's something you have to want, no matter where you go. I've made it in in the South in the recession, so I can make it there in an upswing.

When I reflect on places I have been the most happy, they have tended to be much more outgoing cultures. NZ, Tuscon, etc. I also really like living by the ocean. Charleston is a relatively inexpensive place where I can have both of those things, which is experiencing a lot of growth and has very good mid-term prospects.

I am not looking for a place that's some huge metropolis. I'm honestly over that. The places I've liked best have all been under half a million people. Small city is a good size for me.

That is essentially my thought process.

Like I said in my OP, I am not unfamiliar with repatriation syndrome, as it were. I just don't like it here, and I have very little control over my life. I have a lot more control no matter where I am if I'm in the US, and I've not had any trouble settling logistically in any US state I've lived in. Being an immigrant is a certain cost of control, along with the cost of control that goes with living in a much more bureaucratic nation, and I'm just tired of it.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

ETA since I don't see an edit button: The reason I'm asking about regrets despite having repatriated before if because I've never done it under these circumstances, which is to say, I feel sort of pushed out rather than just going because my time is up or I never intended to stay permanently, if that makes sense? This time, the intent was to stay, but it's just not working out for me.

Other times I've repatriated, it's been a cleaner break, where I felt like I got more out of it. I sort of feel like this last few years has been kind of a waste for me, for reasons partly outside my control and partly because it's just not clicking with me. And that makes the decision tougher in some ways; I ask myself more questions about what could have gone differently, rather than just being happy with how it was. Should I redouble my efforts? What if in 2 years my nest egg is gone and I'm forced go anyway, or I'm still not happy here?

I've never left feeling bad about it, like I do this time. And it makes me wonder about things more.


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

twostep said:


> With all due respect this is hoag wash! I have yet to encounter a company not offering medical insurance and there are plenty option in the markets.


With the greatest of respect I did not say that one could not get employer medical insurance or that there were no other options.

In his first post the OP said that he "could afford healthcare with his American wages". This, to me, sort of implied that he paid for the healthcare out of his wages i.e not through an employer health plan. Probably was wrong.

My response today was merely to state that without medical insurance (employer, ACA etc) most people could only afford the most basic of medical treatment.

Contrary to your experience I know of two, small companies in my area who do not offer insurance. Luckily their staff have qualified for ACA. (some people have few options)


----------



## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

twostep said:


> With all due respect this is hoag wash! I have yet to encounter a company not offering medical insurance and there are plenty option in the markets.


I beg to differ.

Percent of Private Sector Establishments That Offer Health Insurance to Employees | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation

The Number of Employers Offering Fully-Paid Health Care Is Plummeting | Fortune.com


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

lilin said:


> As I mentioned in my OP, I have lived in numerous other countries and states, and I am well aware of the difficulties of repatriation. I'm not expected things to be the same, given that I don't even plan to return to my home state.
> 
> Obviously I am not trying to relive anything. I am just starting to doubt the effort of the next couple years will be worth the pay-off, given that I am increasingly unsure that I would even want to continue living here.
> 
> ...


I don't see what it is that you want the forum to advise you on - you seem to have looked at the situation pretty carefully, and while you have some doubts, you are not going into this with rose coloured glasses.

As you are a US citizen you don't have visa issues, you have lived in several States so you have experience of different aspects of the States, you are not worried about the financial side if you do move, you believe you can have a more open and free life in the US and living in the UK has just not worked out for you.

You have identified Charleston as an area which might be OK for you. So try it - if you don't like it there, the US is a big place .......

Hopefully a US citizen who has returned to the US and is happy they did so, will respond with more concrete advice.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

lilin said:


> ETA since I don't see an edit button: The reason I'm asking about regrets despite having repatriated before if because I've never done it under these circumstances, which is to say, I feel sort of pushed out rather than just going because my time is up or I never intended to stay permanently, if that makes sense? This time, the intent was to stay, but it's just not working out for me.
> 
> Other times I've repatriated, it's been a cleaner break, where I felt like I got more out of it. I sort of feel like this last few years has been kind of a waste for me, for reasons partly outside my control and partly because it's just not clicking with me. And that makes the decision tougher in some ways; I ask myself more questions about what could have gone differently, rather than just being happy with how it was. Should I redouble my efforts? What if in 2 years my nest egg is gone and I'm forced go anyway, or I'm still not happy here?
> 
> I've never left feeling bad about it, like I do this time. And it makes me wonder about things more.


I do not understand what you are trying to find out. You have a portable job, are US citizen, have a location in mind versus UK weather and not finding the right personal circle. Nobody can tell you how long your nest egg will last or if you will ever be happy where you are. 
When we move we move. Pack what is necessary, put the house on the market and look forward to what will be next. 
If the place is wrong and you can do something about it why not do it?


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

OK, responsible contrary opinion here. I guess I understand a bit the conundrum here. It sounds as if there are issues you are dealing with, and there is the ever present concern that moving - back or on - may or may not resolve the issues. Obviously, that is the big risk you and only you can decide on.

It may also depend on just what you were hoping for when you moved to the UK. And what you have to gain or lose by going back to the US.

I can only speak for myself. I had to return to the US sooner than originally planned and even in just that short year (or "almost"), I found that things had changed and I had changed enough that I wanted to turn right around and go back. Now, that had quite a bit to do with my experience in the UK, the period (just before the EU happened) and my particular set of ties and circumstances.

Several years later, after settling in Europe, I had a mini-crisis, where I seriously considered whether or not I should go back. It is not an easy decision, and not really one where other people (particularly folks you don't really know except for your online presence) can help you very much. I decided to stay - but that required lots of changes, in expectations, in behaviors and in attitudes. I'm very happy with my decision. But you're the only one who can decide these sorts of things for you and your situation. One big "deciding factor" I know I wrestled with was the idea that, what would I do if I moved back and still had the same issues and disappointments? Where would I go from there? 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> OK, responsible contrary opinion here. I guess I understand a bit the conundrum here. It sounds as if there are issues you are dealing with, and there is the ever present concern that moving - back or on - may or may not resolve the issues. Obviously, that is the big risk you and only you can decide on.
> 
> It may also depend on just what you were hoping for when you moved to the UK. And what you have to gain or lose by going back to the US.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this.

I think the big hurdle for me is that I am not sure I can happily make the changes and compromises I have to make for the UK to be a place I can feel settled. My desires for my life just don't work here as well as they do in the US, and I wonder if I'm just of an age where those things aren't going to change.

There's a lot of examples of that, like the social culture I talked about earlier. I swear I've been getting more socially anxious after so often feeling like I'm being burdensome just trying to talk to people, over the last couple years. That's really worn on me.

But perhaps an easier example to explain is the "life for relaxing" versus "live to work" thing of the UK versus the US. Well, I happen to be someone who loves what I do, and have a hard time finding the sort of culture I like of similar-minded people here. I can understand the latter point of view for someone who perhaps doesn't have a singular passion the way I do, but for me, it's really demoralizing to feel like other people don't care as much, or even resent me for caring so much and wanting us to do more, if that makes sense. It really sucks the joy out of my work.

Is that something I WANT to change? To care less about something that's really shaped my sense of meaning?

That's the sort of thing I'm wrestling with, as far as whether I'm willing to make the necessary adjustments to make life in the UK not feel so stifling, apart from all the visa issues and the general expat burnout/change fatigue I have.

I've long since accepted that I'll never be entirely "American" for being an expat, and that was true long before this latest stint in the UK. And that's part of what's caught me out about how hard it's been for me here -- I've integrated ok in plenty of other places. But man, the UK and I are like nails on chalkboard.

But even it being the case that I've done ok in other countries... maybe I am nonetheless still too American for the UK. Do I DESIRE to change that?

I struggle to think of what I'd rather be, or what I'd rather do instead if I were to give that up. And that makes it hard for me to desire to change it, when I don't really see anything else here that appeals to me equally. I don't want to trade in something that's really carried me through life and given me happiness, for something that doesn't seem to offer as much for me personally.

I can think of so many people, even Americans, who would probably love to make that trade, as they don't get the jolt I do out of anything they do for their roof. But... what if I was just born in the right place for someone wired as high as I am? What if where I come from is just easier for me, as someone with no surviving family and who relies on being able to make friends relatively easily for my network (or indeed, having workmates where we become like family by virtue of that same high-strung hyper-caring)?

Does that make sense?

The struggle is that I'm fairly sure if I do leave, I won't get another shot at it. So if I leave, I'm committed to that decision to a larger degree than I am committed to staying. If I leave, I don't want to wonder what would have happened if I'd stuck it out, at least until I had PR.

I want to make sure I'm not making a permanent decision over a temporary problem. And equally, I don't want to kill myself fighting through Brexit only to find out that this isn't a temporary problem at all, or worse, I just lose my visa anyway.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

> The struggle is that I'm fairly sure if I do leave, I won't get another shot at it. So if I leave, I'm committed to that decision to a larger degree than I am committed to staying. If I leave, I don't want to wonder what would have happened if I'd stuck it out, at least until I had PR.
> 
> I want to make sure I'm not making a permanent decision over a temporary problem. And equally, I don't want to kill myself fighting through Brexit only to find out that this isn't a temporary problem at all, or worse, I just lose my visa anyway.
> Yesterday 11:18 PM


Oh, yes - that all makes perfect sense to me - having been through a somewhat different version of something similar. First thing to do, I suppose, is to try to take a long, hard look at the realities of the situation and what you want vs. what you'd have to do (or give up) to keep those thing you want to hang onto.

You say you've been back and forth before, so you're aware of the issues regarding having to start again from scratch for credit rating, insurance, etc. You also seem to be aware of the difficulties you could have in trying to find a job in a new location in the US - one where you don't have the usual sorts of connections. But, if you do stick it out until you have PR (assuming that things won't change that much in the next couple of year while they are fighting out the precise terms for Brexit), would that be so bad? It gives you a time line for making the Big Decision, and by that point things may have changed a bit.

One thing I've noticed about our "American nature" is that we want solutions right away. And that just adds to whatever problem we're trying to deal with. Must be something in the culture back there or something. Sometimes things (especially finding solutions) take time - and if you allow them the time they need, you find the solution kind of evolves on its own. Or it changes over the time it takes to evolve. Maybe if you give yourself a timeline - a year, say, or until you have your PR status - things may become somewhat clearer.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Take a long vacation. Bring your work. Explore some smaller towns. Stay with friends, rent a vacation house, mingle with natives. Things have changed over the last couple of years.

I would go back to Rijad before another stint in London but we may have found our place in the most unexpected of all and are going through the transition of content to happy.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

twostep said:


> Take a long vacation. Bring your work. Explore some smaller towns. Stay with friends, rent a vacation house, mingle with natives. Things have changed over the last couple of years.
> 
> I would go back to Rijad before another stint in London but we may have found our place in the most unexpected of all and are going through the transition of content to happy.


...Not sure if you caught this, but I'm worried about money, and haven't made any particularly good friends in this country. At least not ones I'd want to be stuck in a house with.

So I think this would probably make things worse rather than better, on all fronts. I'd just spend the whole time worrying about how much money I just wasted.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh, yes - that all makes perfect sense to me - having been through a somewhat different version of something similar. First thing to do, I suppose, is to try to take a long, hard look at the realities of the situation and what you want vs. what you'd have to do (or give up) to keep those thing you want to hang onto.
> 
> You say you've been back and forth before, so you're aware of the issues regarding having to start again from scratch for credit rating, insurance, etc. You also seem to be aware of the difficulties you could have in trying to find a job in a new location in the US - one where you don't have the usual sorts of connections. But, if you do stick it out until you have PR (assuming that things won't change that much in the next couple of year while they are fighting out the precise terms for Brexit), would that be so bad? It gives you a time line for making the Big Decision, and by that point things may have changed a bit.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for your well-thought out posts.

I pretty much spent the first couple years telling myself it'd get better eventually if I tried. And it's getting tough to do it now, when it's been 3 years and there is still absolutely nothing appealing about my life here. I don't remember ever going this long in any other country without finding anything that allowed me to create a niche for myselft. Usually I had at least the basic skeleton of a life after a year. Here, it still feels like I landed 3 months ago, except I have a lot less money in my bank account.

Beyond that, like I said, my income isn't enough to cover the expense of the UK, and with my employability what it is, that probably won't change. I'm not concerned about making it in a small American city mainly because small American cities are half the price of here! But right now, this is not sustainable. And that's why I am hesitant to wait this out for 2 more years. If I'm still in this situation in 2 years, or worse, I'm forced to leave, I will have nothing by that point. I don't want to crash-land in America with totally empty pockets (or anywhere in the entire Northern Hemisphere, to be frank) during these sorts of politically unstable times.

And beyond those practical concerns, it's really hard to fight off "expat depression" when you don't have any real social life and, like I said, no family back home either. What really scares the hell out of me is that even the natives don't seem to have much in the way of a network, at least not beyond people they see once a month at the pub quiz or whatever. I don't think it's entirely me -- there's a reason Britain tops the list for loneliness in Europe (running into that little factoid while trying to google-fu other expat's experiences was really demoralizing, but apparently it's true). This just isn't a place where people seem to value chosen relationships very much. If even the natives can't do it, what hope do I have coming in from outside? I can't live like this forever.

Yes, there's expats, and I have definitely found them a lot easier to talk to, but most of those people don't intend to stay here. They leave every few months, and then I'm back to square one. My intent wasn't to come here as an expat. It was to immigrate here for good. And losing my entire network twice a year isn't sustainable either, in terms of my well-being and ability to feel happy with my life. Like I said, I'm kind of a get-up-and-go sort of person, and I've just been watching myself get more tired and run down... and I know this is a big reason why. I hate that. I feel like I'm just losing myself bit by bit.

And then I look at my American friends who I haven't even seen in years, and in most cases didn't even know for very long before I left again because I met them in one of the states I only stayed in temporarily, and they talk to me and offer more help than anyone I've met here. I have a better network in a places I don't even live, and in some cases, never lived!

So I guess, it's not so much that I wouldn't love to try to stick it out for another couple years for PR -- I would. I don't want to feel like the last 3 years was just a waste.

But I am worried about my monetary ability to survive in the long-term when I can't make enough to cover expenses, and my psychological ability to continue coping with the loneliest country in Europe with no support network.

Am I rushing things? I don't *think* so? It feels like 3 years should be enough to find SOMETHING to fight for, you know? Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm being a bit American. But if so, do I have the mental and fiscal ability to wait it out? I don't know. That's a huge risk.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

OK, the financial aspect really does kind of drive some of your decision making here. If you can see absolutely no reason to want to stay in the UK, then you've pretty much made up your mind and probably would do best to cut your losses.

You're not going to simply "find" a reason to stay - if you have some reason to want to stay, you have to decide what it would take on your part to make staying more bearable for you. But it sounds as if you're past that point already.

So now you map out how you can pack it all up and move back to the US on whatever is left of your nest egg. Lots of practical type questions like, do you start looking for a new job from where you are, or do you move first (on your own dime) and then start the job hunt? As far as finding a new job goes, can you turn your UK experience into an advantage? Knowledge of "international business" or just how things work in other countries may be highly marketable, depending on your field. At least you can present it like that in your job hunt.

And be careful to craft a reasonable response to the inevitable question about why you moved back to the US (or why you want to). It's a bit like having to have a decent patter when they ask why you left your previous job when you were actually fired.

In any event, there is lots to think about and to get organized if you decide that it's time to go back.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> OK, the financial aspect really does kind of drive some of your decision making here. If you can see absolutely no reason to want to stay in the UK, then you've pretty much made up your mind and probably would do best to cut your losses.
> 
> You're not going to simply "find" a reason to stay - if you have some reason to want to stay, you have to decide what it would take on your part to make staying more bearable for you. But it sounds as if you're past that point already.
> 
> ...


Hey Bev, thanks again. Maybe I just needed to bounce things off someone. It's been hard to find in real life, since most expats here don't intend to stay in the first place, so they don't really think about a lot of these sorts of considerations. And I think I needed (need?) to convince myself it's ok to leave even if I feel like I haven't gotten closure or cool stories out of this particular stint.

I know intellectually that not wanting to be here anymore, or it simply becoming too impractical to be worth bothering with, is also a legitimate reason to leave. I've just never had to do that before. It feels a lot sadder and more regretful to walk away without any good memories of the experience, really, and it makes me want to stay and "fix" that. But perhaps it can't be fixed, and I'm better off just cutting my losses and going somewhere I know meeting my own needs will be a lot easier and I'll have more fun doing it.

Hmmm... You know, I've never actually had to deal with the question of why I moved back before. The first time, I was a lot lower down professionally, so most places didn't care. The second time, I actually went back to school for a brief time to get another qualification, so by the time I was out, it wasn't quite as relevant. Would it be good to say that the city to be appealing for its developing opportunities, with the UK being in somewhat unstable times? I mean, that's true! My love of beaches aside.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

lilin said:


> Hmmm... You know, I've never actually had to deal with the question of why I moved back before. The first time, I was a lot lower down professionally, so most places didn't care. The second time, I actually went back to school for a brief time to get another qualification, so by the time I was out, it wasn't quite as relevant. Would it be good to say that the city to be appealing for its developing opportunities, with the UK being in somewhat unstable times? I mean, that's true! My love of beaches aside.


It's very much like the question "why did you leave your old job without having a new job lined up?" You have to have an explanation that does not involve any criticism, stated or implied, of the UK or your work there.

Try starting out with the phrase, "It was time for me to [leave or return to the US - choice is up to you]... " The uncertainty surrounding Brexit is one angle - but be careful because you need a solid explanation of how and why Brexit would affect you if you stayed on in the UK. 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> It's very much like the question "why did you leave your old job without having a new job lined up?" You have to have an explanation that does not involve any criticism, stated or implied, of the UK or your work there.
> 
> Try starting out with the phrase, "It was time for me to [leave or return to the US - choice is up to you]... " The uncertainty surrounding Brexit is one angle - but be careful because you need a solid explanation of how and why Brexit would affect you if you stayed on in the UK.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Ah, yes. Well, just started freelancing for an American company actually (another thing that I feel has been a pressure to get out of here -- I resorted to that because my employability in the UK is just so dire for the past year, and I had to just get something coming in, but next April, if I'm still here, I'll wind up having to pay double taxes because it's an American company).

So the hope is I'll actually have a current job at a US company I have a long history with -- I actually used to be a regular employee for same a few years ago.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

lilin said:


> ...Not sure if you caught this, but I'm worried about money, and haven't made any particularly good friends in this country. At least not ones I'd want to be stuck in a house with.
> 
> So I think this would probably make things worse rather than better, on all fronts. I'd just spend the whole time worrying about how much money I just wasted.


I was talking about the Carolinas.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

lilin said:


> Ah, yes. Well, just started freelancing for an American company actually (another thing that I feel has been a pressure to get out of here -- I resorted to that because my employability in the UK is just so dire for the past year, and I had to just get something coming in, but next April, if I'm still here, I'll wind up having to pay double taxes because it's an American company).


You shouldn't have to pay double tax. There's a tax treaty that mitigates against that. If you're freelancing, you may have to pay into US Social Security - but only if you're not registered properly with the UK authorities and paying into the UK social insurance system.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

twostep said:


> I was talking about the Carolinas.


I don't really see how this changes what I said, which is that money is an issue for me right now.

I don't have the money to go on joy trips across the Atlantic, living in expensive short-term bungalows while also continuing to pay rent for my place back in an even more expensive foreign country. We don't all have thousands of dollars to just throw away on vacations. I can't afford to be wasteful by basically tripling my relocation costs.

I also have a limited entrance permit, so I'd rather not deal with all that nonsense and risk getting stuck in the airport. Regardless of the letter of the law, UK border security pretty much treats you however they feel like, depending on how much of a dick the agent you just happen to run into feels like being that day.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Bevdeforges said:


> You shouldn't have to pay double tax. There's a tax treaty that mitigates against that. If you're freelancing, you may have to pay into US Social Security - but only if you're not registered properly with the UK authorities and paying into the UK social insurance system.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I think it might be different if you're working for an actual US company; I don't think the income limit applies in that circumstance, although I'll double check.

Still, yet another thing that defeats the purpose of living here if the only place I can get a decent job is the US.


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

lilin said:


> I don't really see how this changes what I said, which is that money is an issue for me right now.
> 
> I don't have the money to go on joy trips across the Atlantic, living in expensive short-term bungalows while also continuing to pay rent for my place back in an even more expensive foreign country. We don't all have thousands of dollars to just throw away on vacations. I can't afford to be wasteful by basically tripling my relocation costs.
> 
> I also have a limited entrance permit, so I'd rather not deal with all that nonsense and risk getting stuck in the airport. Regardless of the letter of the law, UK border security pretty much treats you however they feel like, depending on how much of a dick the agent you just happen to run into feels like being that day.


We get that you don't like the UK - please don't start insulting the immigration officials who have a very difficult job to do.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

Crawford said:


> We get that you don't like the UK - please don't start insulting the immigration officials who have a very difficult job to do.


Welp, if they would stop doing that, as a well-documented phenomenon going back many years, then we would stop complaining about it. As it stands, it's not really my problem if the way they act makes them look bad, and I don't see why I shouldn't be honest about it.

I have literally been turned away one day and then let in the next, just based on the mood of who I ran into that day, regardless of perfect paperwork, no suspicious activity, and full right to enter. I've traveled with European citizens who went through the same thing. And everyone who's immigrated to the UK, particularly through England, is familiar with that sort of behavior, or at least knows plenty of people who've gone through it.

If they want people to speak better of them, they should act better.


----------



## PecheLaura (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi thread, hi Lilin!

I lived in Paris for 2 years (London earlier on for about 2 years), and determined that in my 30's, my husband and I would never make enough money to live comfortably. The city was cramped, the real estate was crazy expensive for family housing, and parking/public transport was way too stressful for me before I even entertained pregnancy. We discussed that a cheaper town was required, and he suggested the USA.

So, I have that perspective of having re-patriated to the US after Europe. I'm filing a visa for him, and we are long-distance.

Bev is right (and I wish someone would elaborate!!) that the job market is being way harsh on my CV after claiming 2 years of work experience in Paris. HR people just don't understand the work experience or the change in location. One woman even asked if I was French, or if I had earned this work experience during "study abroad." Barf, so yes, the job market is really harsh.

I returned to Atlanta where I am from and have had a nice transition. I still like the town. I pay $500/month for Kaiser insurance through ACA. Manageable with savings, but not exactly cheap.

As for your philosophical and emotional questions, hmm. How are you doing with social bonds over your whole life? Has this been a long-term complaint? For me, I don't mind moving too much, but I consistently write and visit people who are important to me. The distance feels smaller over the Atlantic that way.

I rather enjoyed the Brits, but I was younger and in grad school then. Things might get more insular as people start having babies and such.. Anyway, do you have nice friendships outside of this rough patch in the UK? On a related note, you have permission to leave any situation you just hate. Paris was a bad fit for what I wanted for a family, and I don't regret my departure.. but the town is perfectly lovely in many respects.


----------



## lilin (Aug 4, 2017)

PecheLaura said:


> Hi thread, hi Lilin!
> 
> I lived in Paris for 2 years (London earlier on for about 2 years), and determined that in my 30's, my husband and I would never make enough money to live comfortably. The city was cramped, the real estate was crazy expensive for family housing, and parking/public transport was way too stressful for me before I even entertained pregnancy. We discussed that a cheaper town was required, and he suggested the USA.
> 
> ...


Hey there! Thanks for replying.

Ok, I will definitely make a note to play up my US freelancing. Doesn't sound like work from the UK is gonna count for much, eh?

Is that insurance cost for both of you or just one?? I looked a bit online and premiums don't seem too much worse than when I left, at least for lower cost plans (which I tend to go for, since once I'm up and running properly I can generally absorb the co-pays and deductibles well enough to justify it, and it saves me money if, like most years, I rarely use my medical).

Socially, I tend to be introverted. Building a solid crowd has always taken me a bit of time, but as I said, I've never felt like I hit such a wall with it. Usually after a year, I've got a couple solid people, which is what I look for, not just acquaintances -- I put the effort in to look for friends that'll stick.

While I'm sure my relatively limited social energy doesn't help this situation, part of what has made it feel hopeless is that I've watched my very outgoing expat friends experience a similar issue. They do have a larger circle of acquaintances than I do, but still no one they'd call close. That's a difficulty I've commiserated with people about a lot.

I had actually stayed in the UK for about 6 months before, when I was much younger as well. And I didn't remember it being this hard either. That's why I went back!

But I do think I know what's changed, and honestly... I'm not sure it's something I can do anything about, or that I'd want to.

I think I did the typical American thing, where my partying went down dramatically as I got older. And then, my more introverted, intimacy-seeking personality become more of the dominant aspect of me, as opposed to the more party-party me that I was when I was 20 and going out a lot of nights just from sheer youthful exuberance.

But here, people don't really do that. The pub is the social hub where people do things, and that is hard for me to work with, as someone who is inclined to quieter places, and not disposed to being a heavier drinker. It's not that I never want to go for drinks, I just don't want to have to do it so much? Every meet-up is in a bar! I did fine in NZ's coffee culture. I struggle in the UK's pub culture.

And then during the daytime, it's a very reserved culture, so it's just really hard for me to bridge that as an introverted person who eventually just runs out of energy for being the one who has to make most of the effort a lot of the time. I do think "daytime Britain" gets more insular as people get older. Perhaps this is why I tend to do best in outgoing cultures; once in a while, someone talks to me first!

And reflecting on it, a lot of the people that I've known who've struggled, expat or otherwise, have had one or both of these two traits that has caused me issues. And perhaps it's a fundamental sort that is best moved on from than continuing to struggle with it, at least for me.

I do have some good friends back in States that I'm reasonably good about staying in touch with. Only problem is they tend to be all over, just like me! But I have been getting their input quite a bit about how things have been going over there, the city I'm thinking of moving to, etc.

It is really nice to hear from an American who made the jump back and didn't hate it -- especially from Europe to the South. Lots of people think I'm crazy for that, and I admit it is a big cultural leap. But I think maybe that's exactly what I need.

Anyway, hope Atlanta's doing well by you for the family stuff, and thanks again.


----------



## PecheLaura (Sep 29, 2014)

I have a personal beef against HR after this job search.. but anyway! I think you're right to emphasize ties to the US and get letters of reference on letterhead in PDF's.

My insurance is just for me. Husband in France.

I like your train of thought that being introverted in a reserved culture can make for tough going socially. Well.. if you're unhappy with the social situation, I might suggest shared athletic activities or hobbies. But in any event, evidence suggests you are seriously considering your move.

You know, I'm from the south and like it fine. I am a little sensitive about rural airports and don't much like connecting flights to every destination. Atlanta is a solution there. But for a high quality of life experience and some relaxation and space, why not give your Charleston move a go? Also, having had the good fortune to fall in love and all, that experience makes things feel better and warmer. Meet some people and enjoy your life, Lilin. Don't prolong your misery if you already have one foot out the door.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

lilin said:


> I think it might be different if you're working for an actual US company; I don't think the income limit applies in that circumstance, although I'll double check.
> 
> Still, yet another thing that defeats the purpose of living here if the only place I can get a decent job is the US.


It depends on what US company and what capacity you're working in (i.e. if they have you designated as a "temporary" transfer they can keep you in the US social insurance system - but you still pay your taxes to the country where you're resident). But I think you've made up your mind at this point, so it's perhaps not all that important (unless you've been paying double taxes while you're in the UK, which would sour anyone on the experience!). 

To be honest about it, my experience with the UK immigration people was pretty much the opposite of yours. I fumbled my official entry into the UK and the guy "helped" me get it straight. And I've had some bad experiences returning to the US with the immigration people - both as a US citizen and accompanying my NRA husband. They're not really paid to welcome you to their respective countries in either case.

But I am also very familiar with the situation where you aren't happy with where you are, and I know only too well that nothing any of us says is going to change how you're thinking about where you are. That, to my mind, is the biggest sign that it may very well be time to repatriate. Just make sure you have a "Plan B" - i.e. what you are going to do if the move to Charleston (or wherever) goes sour early on. It can be as simple as a back-up location where you have friends or family, or a savings account where you've stashed enough money to make one more move. 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

The nest egg is dwindling, the job situation is not the greatest, neither Brits nor expats let you in, visa situation is a bit convoluted and you have an ax to grind with immigration officers. What do you expect to take a 180 turn in the near future?

We never had any issues with overseas employment on resumes. Work wise - if I am not familiar with a company I ask about it. The job is relevant and fits work history - who cares where you were as long as it was legal.


----------



## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Crawford said:


> We get that you don't like the UK - please don't start insulting the immigration officials who have a very difficult job to do.


Why not? If anyone (difficult job or not) acts badly, we have a right to call them out for it. 

Immigration officers in the UK and the US are generally regarded with scorn because of their oafish, thuggish, intimidatory approach to incoming passengers. Sure, there are some decent people. But the 'profession' seems to attract the worst kinds. 

I'm fortunate, in that In those two countries and in Australia and Canada I don't actually have to talk to an immigration officer. But if I had a Muslim sounding name, for example, it would be a different matter. I have friends who always get challenged and delayed entering the UK and the US. 

I have been through the dreaded US "secondary processing". Not a big deal for me, just a bit of paperwork to be sorted out. But watching the treatment of others, immigrant families with bad or non-existent English, and young children, was disgraceful. They were treated like absolute trash, shouted at, not allowed to use the toilet or communicate with people waiting outside. 

This is not immigration, it's TSA - but they're cut from the same cloth. Should this guy, who's clearly 



, be criticised, despite his difficult job?


----------

