# Domestic electrical wiring regulations



## LouiseSJPP (3 mo ago)

I'm assessing the state of the electrics in our new project, a small house in Navarre. It's an abandoned reno project, the wiring about 3/4 done but I'm not sure all is well with the work already in place.

I don't yet speak Spanish, learning proving to be slow, so finding regs online is hard. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I don't mind pages in Spanish - I have Google Translate - it's just finding them that's tricky.

My questions are about number of lights and sockets on a spur, cable diameters for different loads, RCD / SPD and master switch details.

I always like to know what's right or wrong before getting the trades in to quote.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

LouiseSJPP said:


> I'm assessing the state of the electrics in our new project, a small house in Navarre. It's an abandoned reno project, the wiring about 3/4 done but I'm not sure all is well with the work already in place.
> 
> I don't yet speak Spanish, learning proving to be slow, so finding regs online is hard. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I don't mind pages in Spanish - I have Google Translate - it's just finding them that's tricky.
> 
> ...


They don't use spurs here. It's all radial here - hence the number of boxes at the top of walls

I will see if I can find the regs (I did post them on here some time ago in their library) I think they are "HD-91"

This is a good resource http://www.sparksinspain.es/services/wiring-re-wiring/


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

They are very lax about electrical wiring in general here is Spain.

You see botch jobs by unqualified people to their home wiring all the time and also in establishments that the public frequent. If it happened in the UK, they would be shut down on health and safety grounds, until they resolved the issue.

The wiring here reminds me of what was in my grandmothers house, before we rewired the whole house. 

Even saying that, the original wiring in her house was streets ahead of what I see here.

What I see here at times makes me think I am in a third world country.


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

It makes one wonder what was used before terminal strips were available??


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## Befuddled (Jul 9, 2021)

I have actually seen connections simply twisted and covered with Sellotape.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Strange that you all have had such bad electricians.

I have had several of my properties completely rewired by a qualified, Spanish electrician - no Sellotape, no terminal strips etc. All done completely correctly and signed off with boletin for Iberdrola.

Just use professionals and you should be fine. I agree many DIY'ers out there and many Brits who claim to know what they are doing whilst NOT conforming to Spanish regulations


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

Saw something on the three pin plug recently. They are for numerous reason it is far superior to the two pin plug. Not even any competition really.

Would have installed 3 pin plugs throughout the property where I live, but there are insurance implications, apparently...

Notwithstanding, there are those who even voted for Brexit, owing to the 3 pin plug.

There we go now...

There's nowt so queer as folk.


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## LouiseSJPP (3 mo ago)

I'm used to UK and French-style consumer units. They have banks of automatic overload switches ('trips'), each bank protected by an RCD at the left hand end of the bank, the whole covered by a master switch and surge protector.
The Spanish regs don't seem to allow these banks of trips. The individual circuits seems to be wired directly into the RCDs, now mounted in a horizontal row. It would seem that the wiring of these circuits is regulated, too, an array from 1 to 5 or 1 to 11 depending ont he size of house, the functions of each circuit defined.
I like the auto trip switches. They mean if one light circuit, it doesn't take out all the lights. If one socket circuit trips, ti doesn't take everything with it.
Am I reading this right? I cannot use banks of sub-circuit trips after each RCD, I have to use pre-defined RCD circuits only?
I see also that houses with two or more storeys should have a consumer unit on each floor. Given the pre-dtermined nature of the circuits, does this mean each floor of a family home needs a consumer unit with 11 RCD circuits in it?? This seems crazy.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

You need to talk to an electrician, I'm assuming by these questions you are considering a DIY solution.

If you DIY then you will not get it signed off. Spain is nothing like the UK.
You need an electrical check and its needs signing off, usually the spark who does it will know the inspector and he knows the sparks work, after all the inspector is libel should anything happen.

Our local electrician has many horror stories of going to homes owned by Brits and seeing what maybe ok in the UK not being to code here, he is quite well off due to these jobs.

Anyway, the circuits are not as you describe. And an RCD is a breaker of sorts as they can switch both live and neutral when they 'see' an earth fault and seeing as you can put a plug in either way and effectively cross live and neutral thats a good thing.
I went round the flat with a plug tester and have marked where the live is and have done the same on every plug as well. 
I have some old stereo gear from the 1950's and they don't have earths, so having an RCD is nice.

We have no individual breakers (fuses) as they would not break quickly enough and from memory I don't you can legally install plain old breakers in the Uk now anyway, they all have to be current sense.

Each breaker (RCD, RCBO etc) will not control a circuit of Oh lets say lights in your house.

Each breaker will have maybe a light, a couple of sockets, maybe one A/C unit etc.

We have a low amp circuit that has a TV socket (complete with Ariel and usb) which also has the dining room lights and my bathroom. Plugging the hoover into this circuit trips its RCD. (as it should)

You contract for a maximum potential here (we have 5.2KW) which means, if you go over that amount the little electronic monitor that the electric supplier fits will trip everything. It then auto resets about 10s later as long as you have turned something off.
A couple of Christmas's ago we had the A/C heating, the oven and 3 rings on, I stupidly switched on the water heater and the flat went dark. I heard a click and then another and the power stayed off, I switched off the water heater and the power came back on.

Ive done house and industrial wiring in the Uk and was qualified to 16th edition at the time and wont even look at ours here...


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

On the topic of electrics, can anyone tell me if it's OK to replace the old MR16 type 12v Halogen spotlights with a LED GU5 12v which has the same pins and you have to retain the transformer.

If so do you benefit from the lower wattage of the LED?


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

If you can provide link to the specs, then perhaps, it would be easier to help you.


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## LouiseSJPP (3 mo ago)

Barriej said:


> You need an electrical check and its needs signing off, usually the spark who does it will know the inspector and he knows the sparks work, after all the inspector is libel should anything happen.


I'm not aware that anything needs signing off. ITC BT 25 is a guidance only, and clearly states that. We bought the house a few months ago with a certificate de habilidad, and there was no certification of the electrical circuits. The insurance company didn't ask for one, either.

As far as I can see, if something goes wrong, you'd need to show the job was competently done. My plan at the moment to show this is to follow French code, as it makes more sense, and it's still a European code.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

LouiseSJPP said:


> I'm not aware that anything needs signing off. ITC BT 25 is a guidance only, and clearly states that. We bought the house a few months ago with a certificate de habilidad, and there was no certification of the electrical circuits. The insurance company didn't ask for one, either.
> 
> As far as I can see, if something goes wrong, you'd need to show the job was competently done. My plan at the moment to show this is to follow French code, as it makes more sense, and it's still a European code.


Ha, ha - not been in Spain long have you.

Spain works differently, they will need to see a boletin to show that the wiring has been competently completed/reformed. The boletin is sometimes asked for by the electricity company,. For example, when changing names on the contract, when trying to increase the power etc. 

If something goes wrong, the only proof is the boletin.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

LouiseSJPP said:


> My plan at the moment to show this is to follow French code, as it makes more sense, and it's still a European code.


Sorry to snip your reply but you have given me the best laugh I've had today. 

If you are in spain it's the Spanish regs that take preference. 
The EU made a directive. But each individual country is able to interpret them within a framework. 

When I did machine wiring in the UK, it followed the EU directive one way. My German colleagues interpreted it their way. 

I installed an Italian built machine in Spain and the local electrician modified some of the components to suit local requirements, even though the machine was fully CE compliant. 

It then had to be signed off. 

Again you are in Spain so it's Spain that makes the rules. Try wiring a house the American way here and see what happens. 

But it's your choice at the end of the day and you may not get biten until you try to sell. 

For my 2c I asked for a electric check on the flat we purchased to ensure it was legal.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Mod hat on... there's no need to make fun of the OP. 

That said, if/when a _boletín_ is required, & that will definitely happen eventually, the electrician will not issue one unless the wiring complies with Spanish regulations, as has been said. 


In this case, a new _boletín_ will be required simply because some rewiring has been done. 

Without a _boletín_, the power will be disconnected by the electricity company.


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## LouiseSJPP (3 mo ago)

xabiaxica said:


> Mod hat on... there's no need to make fun of the OP.
> 
> That said, if/when a _boletín_ is required, & that will definitely happen eventually, the electrician will not issue one unless the wiring complies with Spanish regulations, as has been said.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this.

Until very recently learning about the _boletin_, I'd assumed that the requirement for wiring was to be safe. This can as well be proved by following a French standard as a Spanish, and the Spanish standard does clearly state that it is a guidance only and not a requirement. Whilst it was a different industry sector, In the past I've worked on proving safety of medical devices, where BOG standard was the starting point: British or German standard, it didn't matter, but any European standard could have been used.

The _boletin_ rather changes things: persuading a sparky to sign off a French system on Spanish soil seems unlikely... So now the course of action is a system inspection followed by quotation for remedial works followed by lawsuit to the property sellers for hidden fault. I honestly would have preferred to just quietly rewire the place myself than take someone to court, but if there's a re-wire to pay for, it's not going to be me paying.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

LouiseSJPP said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Until very recently learning about the _boletin_, I'd assumed that the requirement for wiring was to be safe. This can as well be proved by following a French standard as a Spanish, and the Spanish standard does clearly state that it is a guidance only and not a requirement. Whilst it was a different industry sector, In the past I've worked on proving safety of medical devices, where BOG standard was the starting point: British or German standard, it didn't matter, but any European standard could have been used.
> 
> The _boletin_ rather changes things: persuading a sparky to sign off a French system on Spanish soil seems unlikely... So now the course of action is a system inspection followed by quotation for remedial works followed by lawsuit to the property sellers for hidden fault. I honestly would have preferred to just quietly rewire the place myself than take someone to court, but if there's a re-wire to pay for, it's not going to be me paying.


a rewire might well be cheaper than a lawsuit? Abandoned reno project? What else have you not bargained on?


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## LouiseSJPP (3 mo ago)

olivefarmer said:


> a rewire might well be cheaper than a lawsuit? Abandoned reno project? What else have you not bargained on?


I didn't explain: lower two floors are all finished, brand new consumer units, all nicely decorated. Loft, the renovation had ground to a halt, half-finished ceilings, untreated beetle in the roof timbers, looks like the cause of calling quits. Trouble is, the nicely-finished work downstairs has no earth and the circuits don't make any sense. Trips upstairs for circuits downstairs, and vice-versa. As this has all been plastered in and painted, floors nailed down, it's not going to be an easy fix. It's all rather annoying.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

LouiseSJPP said:


> I didn't explain: lower two floors are all finished, brand new consumer units, all nicely decorated. Loft, the renovation had ground to a halt, half-finished ceilings, untreated beetle in the roof timbers, looks like the cause of calling quits. Trouble is, the nicely-finished work downstairs has no earth and the circuits don't make any sense. Trips upstairs for circuits downstairs, and vice-versa. As this has all been plastered in and painted, floors nailed down, it's not going to be an easy fix. It's all rather annoying.


Does the property have a current_ boletín_?


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

LouiseSJPP said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Until very recently learning about the _boletin_, I'd assumed that the requirement for wiring was to be safe. This can as well be proved by following a French standard as a Spanish, and the Spanish standard does clearly state that it is a guidance only and not a requirement. Whilst it was a different industry sector, In the past I've worked on proving safety of medical devices, where BOG standard was the starting point: British or German standard, it didn't matter, but any European standard could have been used.
> 
> The _boletin_ rather changes things: persuading a sparky to sign off a French system on Spanish soil seems unlikely... So now the course of action is a system inspection followed by quotation for remedial works followed by lawsuit to the property sellers for hidden fault. I honestly would have preferred to just quietly rewire the place myself than take someone to court, but if there's a re-wire to pay for, it's not going to be me paying.


Im sorry to disagree with you again, but some of your points are incorrect.

Industrial regs are very different to those that apply in private dwellings. 
In fact all private dwellings are now considered low voltage these days and while you can run high voltage (i.e. 3 phase in factories, some countries do 3, Neg and earth while others omit the Neg or the earth) In Italy you will not find the Negative (or neutral) as the earth is the same thing.

Anyhow not the scope of the conversation.

It is not for the seller to ensure that the building complies, it is for the purchaser or their legal advisor to ask for the paperwork.
Ive never seen an electrical safety cert in the Uk for a home, unless a buyer has requested a check (in fact when you have a survey done this along with gas check is an added extra cost). We moved home multiple times and never requested or saw any certs. The only time one is automatically issued is for new builds to get them signed off.

As I previously mentioned I asked for the boletin as I had heard that some of the flats here in the village had electrical faults. I had to pay for this and the solicitor we used said it was the first time anyone had asked for one that she could remember.

As to the regs being an EU standard across the block, well thats not possible because the Uk system is totally different to that of most Eu countries and I've attached a paper that shows there are major differences between inspections and what is allowed.
And as for wiring to another countries code, try wiring a ring system here as used in the UK and see what a local spark thinks of it. 
We are in Spain and what Spain wants and demands is the law.



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229014259_Overview_of_Regulations_for_Electrical_Safety_in_European_Residential_Buildings



Unfortunately Spain was not one of the countries in this paper.

I also have this from these people.


http://www.sparksinspain.es/services/wiring-re-wiring/



And this about the Boletin.


http://www.sparksinspain.es/2013/06/11/what-is-a-boletin/



Where it clearly states that providing one is not a legal requirement but should be something you ask for.

So while I sympathise with you, unfortunately I don't know why you would want to install a French system in Spain for one and once you have paid for a check on the wiring, its now too late to take someone to court for something that as a buyer you are supposed to ask for. 
I suppose you could take the solicitor to court for failing to advise you that you should have asked for one.
But in my limited experience of stuff here in Spain is that you only get what you ask for.

Oh and just in case anyone is that bored here is the Spanish wiring codes. REBT-2002


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reglamento_electrotécnico_para_baja_tensión_(España)



Caveat Emptor as the saying goes.


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