# Shoot out in Chapala



## Mexico Babe

Has anyone heard about the shoot out in Chapala that has been going on for the last little bit???? Hundreds of rounds shot and some dead. One fake cop was killed from what I understand.... Lord, if my husband hears about his he will not move to Mexico!!! I hope all innocent people were safe.


----------



## Mexico Babe

*Three gunmen dead two wounded*

Google Translate

I hope the link works. I tried copy and paste. If not I will try again.


----------



## pappabee

Mexico Babe said:


> Has anyone heard about the shoot out in Chapala that has been going on for the last little bit???? Hundreds of rounds shot and some dead. One fake cop was killed from what I understand.... Lord, if my husband hears about his he will not move to Mexico!!! I hope all innocent people were safe.


If you think that this article might cause him not to move then please be sure that he doesn't see any of the informaiton listed on the attached links. It'll stop any movement to Chicago, New York and Cleveland also.

Chicago Gang Violence
gang violence | cleveland.com
Newburgh, Where Gang Violence Reigns - NYTimes.com


----------



## Mexico Babe

http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/15/35/70/65/dscf0110.jpg


http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/15/35/70/65/dscf0112.jpg

Two pics from last night in Chapala.


----------



## DNP

Mexico Babe said:


> http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/15/35/70/65/dscf0110.jpg
> 
> http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/15/35/70/65/dscf0112.jpg
> 
> Two pics from last night in Chapala.


Scary pictures, for sure.

Do you have anything that links those to last night in Chapala?

WashDC/SMA


----------



## Mexico Babe

DNP said:


> Scary pictures, for sure.
> 
> Do you have anything that links those to last night in Chapala?
> 
> WashDC/SMA



They are off of the chapala.com forum under the shoot out topic. One on the main contributors to that page took them in front of his house. There are a lot of scary stories on there as it was all going down. I was up and reading all the post as it was all happening. Very scary for sure. One expat couple was driving home when it was going on and had a scary brush with bullets whizzing by their car!!!!! Geesh!!!!! Glad no civilians were hurt.


----------



## RVGRINGO

I had just fallen asleep, when I heard the volleys of gunfire outside; several long exchanges of automatic fire, often followed by a two or three shots, maybe a 'coup de gras'. My wife stirred, but didn't even wake up fully, even though I told her there was shooting in the area. The news on TV showed an interview with the Chapala police chief, and there are early articles in 'El Informador' this morning: Revelan saldo oficial del enfrentamiento en Chapala :: El Informador
The gunfire soon ended and I went back to sleep. This morning, the town is a bit more quiet than usual, except for an enterprising sound truck hawking newspapers on every street. The 'mess' is swept up, the wrecked and bullet ridden vehicles have been towed away and the preparations for Dia de la Independencia are ongoing. A few buildings have an odd pockmark, or two, from bullets and the rain shower has minimized other stains in the streets.
The bad guys are mostly dead, or seriously wounded and in custody. Some of them were young and dressed as police. They were heavily armed with rifles, handguns, grenades and rocket launchers.
If you don't read Spanish, paste the text of the news article into Google Translate.


----------



## Mexico Babe

*Shoot out*

Rv, does anyone know yet what it was all about? Was it drug cartel or rival gangs and where did they come from? Thanks Diane 





RVGRINGO said:


> I had just fallen asleep, when I heard the volleys of gunfire outside; several long exchanges of automatic fire, often followed by a two or three shots, maybe a 'coup de gras'. My wife stirred, but didn't even wake up fully, even though I told her there was shooting in the area. The news on TV showed an interview with the Chapala police chief, and there are early articles in 'El Informador' this morning: Revelan saldo oficial del enfrentamiento en Chapala :: El Informador
> The gunfire soon ended and I went back to sleep. This morning, the town is a bit more quiet than usual, except for an enterprising sound truck hawking newspapers on every street. The 'mess' is swept up, the wrecked and bullet ridden vehicles have been towed away and the preparations for Dia de la Independencia are ongoing. A few buildings have an odd pockmark, or two, from bullets and the rain shower has minimized other stains in the streets.
> The bad guys are mostly dead, or seriously wounded and in custody. Some of them were young and dressed as police. They were heavily armed with rifles, handguns, grenades and rocket launchers.
> If you don't read Spanish, paste the text of the news article into Google Translate.


----------



## RVGRINGO

No real details about the 'organized crime' people referred to in the news articles. Maybe we'll know more later; or, maybe not.
My wife has just gone out to wander around the area and see what she can learn. I'm sure she'll stop for coffee at the shop right in the middle of the affected area. However, I expect there will be more rumor, hyperbole and uninformed guessing, than any real facts.


----------



## Mexico Babe

RVGRINGO said:


> No real details about the 'organized crime' people referred to in the news articles. Maybe we'll know more later; or, maybe not.
> My wife has just gone out to wander around the area and see what she can learn. I'm sure she'll stop for coffee at the shop right in the middle of the affected area. However, I expect there will be more rumor, hyperbole and uninformed guessing, than any real facts.


Thanks, let us know if you learn anymore.


----------



## DNP

Mexico Babe said:


> Rv, does anyone know yet what it was all about? Was it drug cartel or rival gangs and where did they come from? Thanks Diane


According to the article RV referenced (thanks, RV) it was a confrontation between the Municipal Police of Chapala and, "organized delinquents", which i always translate to mean Gangs.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## maryellen1952

There is a common misconception that the majority of violence in Mexico is due to drug cartels. If you've read (or heard on Mexican news) authorities now report (as well as U.S. Latin American policy analysts) that most violence stems from local independent gang violence rather than the cartels. Most of the cartels have disintegrated and now the violence is dispersed among small gangs rather than large central ones. This is a new problem that Mexican police have to address.


----------



## Detailman

pappabee said:


> If you think that this article might cause him not to move then please be sure that he doesn't see any of the informaiton listed on the attached links. It'll stop any movement to Chicago, New York and Cleveland also.
> 
> Chicago Gang Violence
> gang violence | cleveland.com
> Newburgh, Where Gang Violence Reigns - NYTimes.com


Pappabee,

So true. I am a senior citizen and I have lived my whole life in the Greater Vancouver area of BC. Over the last several years there have been dozens of killings due to gang violence, with a few civilian casualties and yet I am not concerned for my safety. I always advise my wife to be aware of her surroundings, no matter where she is and I do the same. There are parts of town that I would not go to and I would avoid certain late night areas, etc. We would not wear expensive jewelry on public transportation or in certain areas or later at night. In other words -- common sense!!

Other than those common sense precautions, do I worry about our safety? No. Am I constantly thinking about the violence? No. Do I feel safe? Yes. Can I enjoy my daily life without worry? Yes. Am I naive? No - my business associates for 30 years were ex-RCMP officers with many years experience and I learned a lot from them.

There are areas of Mexico that I would not feel totally safe, and yet the same common sense approach would negate many (but not all) of the dangers. But in Ajijic and Chapala my wife and I walked the streets late at night, saying hello to many locals, and we always felt safe. We felt safer than many areas of Vancouver. Our greater fear was a medical emergency without a working knowledge of Spanish.

Bottom line: Use common sense but do not let fear of things that will probably never affect you (well over 95% of the things we worry about will never happen ) rob you of the peace and joy of everyday life.

And if you are somewhat rattled by this news -- another Margarita will temporarily help.

John


----------



## Mexico Babe

But that's the problem!!!! It did happen in chapala where everyone thinks it is safe!!!! Where everyone goes. Not in some bad neighbor hood!!!!! Yeah, there are a lot of places not to go to in Atlanta area, but I would expect my street where I live and sleep to be safe from open gun fights with gangs and the police!!!!! Sure we had our car broke into in our own driveway and my husbands explorer was stolen out of our driveway one night. But that is not violent crime..... Most nights in cooler weather we even foolishly sleep with our windows open for the fresh cool air!!!!! I still want to move to chapala, but I can't tell my husband what happened last night or he would probably back out. I will wait until after our month long vacation there next may or June. 






Detailman said:


> Pappabee,
> 
> So true. I am a senior citizen and I have lived my whole life in the Greater Vancouver area of BC. Over the last several years there have been dozens of killings due to gang violence, with a few civilian casualties and yet I am not concerned for my safety. I always advise my wife to be aware of her surroundings, no matter where she is and I do the same. There are parts of town that I would not go to and I would avoid certain late night areas, etc. We would not wear expensive jewelry on public transportation or in certain areas or later at night. In other words -- common sense!!
> 
> Other than those common sense precautions, do I worry about our safety? No. Am I constantly thinking about the violence? No. Do I feel safe? Yes. Can I enjoy my daily life without worry? Yes. Am I naive? No - my business associates for 30 years were ex-RCMP officers with many years experience and I learned a lot from them.
> 
> There are areas of Mexico that I would not feel totally safe, and yet the same common sense approach would negate many (but not all) of the dangers. But in Ajijic and Chapala my wife and I walked the streets late at night, saying hello to many locals, and we always felt safe. We felt safer than many areas of Vancouver. Our greater fear was a medical emergency without a working knowledge of Spanish.
> 
> Bottom line: Use common sense but do not let fear of things that will probably never affect you (well over 95% of the things we worry about will never happen ) rob you of the peace and joy of everyday life.
> 
> And if you are somewhat rattled by this news -- another Margarita will temporarily help.
> 
> John


----------



## RVGRINGO

Mexico Babe started this thread shortly after the incident. Since then, she has posted fully half of the subsequent posts on the topic. All that from her home in Atlanta, Georgia. Meanwhile, most of us living in Chapala, even within earshot of the gunfire, slept through it all. The bad guys were 'sicaros', assassins hired by the various 'gangs' to take out their competition and/or the police. In fact, some were dressed as police. They are dead now & a few are critically wounded, saving the expense of 'bringing them to justice' as the NoB folks like to say. They aren't after 'civilians' and most of these incidents do happen late at night. This morning, Chapala is quite normal and we've both been out and about, separately, on foot and by car. Yes, there are headlines featuring the incident, and those occurring overnight in Guadalajara, as in any big city; one bus driver shot, one body in a suitcase, and a couple of other dead 'gang bangers'. 
So, is there anything else you want to know, 'Mexico Babe not yet in Mexico'?


----------



## Detailman

RVGringo,

So well said.

Your comment on a body in a suitcase. Yesterday's locals news in Burnaby was that a mother of two that went missing about six weeks ago was just found in a suitcase floating in the Fraser River. Husband charged. Original story had her missing after being dropped off in the Metrotown Shopping Centre area. Largest shopping centre in the Greater Vancouver area and about 5 minutes from where we live. There is crime in our immediate area (few rapes, numerous muggings, some home invasions, a few gang deaths, murders, care worker murdered in our area withing the last week (by someone she took into her home against regulations), etc. (And this is a prime higher end area!)

These things are not happening in a far away place. They are around us but my earlier comments still stand. Yes, I could be in the wrong place at the wrong time but you could be among dozens of hockey players that die in a plane crash in Russia or be a pedestrian run down by a speeding driver while on your daily walk. You can not go through life fearing these things. Many do and they miss the true essence of life. I am concerned over the world scene but I will not allow it to affect my mind set to the extent it refocuses on "but it COULD happen." More chance of me dropping dead from another heart attack.

The happiest and most successful people have very positive mind sets.

When I read that your wife was out and around for her morning stroll and a coffee break, I couldn't help but think: "Way to go. My type of person - just like my wife."

Enjoy the day. 

John


----------



## RVGRINGO

Thanks, John, for your kind comments. 
Yes, my wife slept through the shooting and, on reflection, I can only assume that most folks slept through it because they are quite accustomed to the sound of exploding 'cohetes' in all Mexican towns. Since this is the 'patriotic month' in Mexico, there is some of that celebratory noise to be expected; and slept through. However, there are others of us who immediately recognize the sounds of AK-47s, AR-15s and other such noises; like the grenade that two of the bad guys pulled but didn't throw fast enough, blowing themselves up in their own vehicle and then crashing into one of our favorite restaurants. Not to worry, it is open this morning with a bit of a hole in the front; but the traffic light got knocked down & still needs fixing. Life goes on.


----------



## Guest

Most folks NOB don't realize that many things in life are much different in Mexico.

Examples: 
Houses in the US typically have a wide open lawn, around a house with no more than a deadbolt and locks on the windows, open to the street and whomever is walking by. 

Houses in MX typically have a wall around each home's lot that is between 5 and 10 feet tall, doors with two locks on them, maybe a decorative/protective open metal door in front of the inner doors, and decorative bars over window openings. When I first saw bars over windows all I could think of was living in a birdcage, but didn't notice them after a week or two. Some of my windows are always open, whether I'm home or not, because I know that no one will be climbing in to check anything out. I don't know anyone with a home alarm system here, but many friends NOB couldn't imagine living without one.

I may live in a small place, but other than kids between 18 and 25, everyone else I know is home in their living rooms after 9 pm. The streets are rolled up and not many people are driving around. Compare that to NOB where people are going out shopping at Wal-Mart at midnight. Folks here can get their shopping done during their two hour afternoon break for lunch, and have few reasons to go out shopping at crazy hours.

Our local crime seems to be limited to a few house burglaries and for some reason, bank robberies. Many times during busy periods such as the 15th and end of the month, the banks here have police in black with automatic weapons stationed outside the banks keeping an eye out for bad guys. That's a good thing. If someone NOB saw the same thing, they would think they were in a war zone. At the same time, people NOB somehow accept burglaries, theft, car theft, rape and assaults as "part of modern life". We have very low levels of any of those crimes here. I wouldn't trade MX for there for a million $$.


----------



## pappabee

Maybe it’s just me and if so I apologize for this but I’m really getting a little tired of trying to tell people that Mexico (at least much of it) is safer than in the states. We’ve seen posts after posts about it and we’ve had facts posted showing the relative crime stats and still people post comments about “how safe is it”. True that the latest conflict in Chapala is close to home but so was the knife attack at the Cedar-Lee Theater in Cleveland Heights Ohio – just 4 blocks from where I grew up. (I still have two kids living there). Am I going to tell them that they must move because the area is no longer safe? H-ll no. In the states we have lived with rape, robbery, murder, car theft, gang fights and a few assaults. 

What’s so different here? Just so we can put things in prospective here are the 2006 stats for Atlanta: Atlanta Crime Statistics and Crime Data (Atlanta, GA)

If I’m over reacting then I’m very sorry but I’m tired of defending my choice of homes. I will say it again, Do you really think that we’re all so crazy as to live in a place where we didn’t feel safe?
:boxing:


----------



## Mexico Babe

I'm not sayin I'm too scared to go live in Chapala!!!! But everyone on this board is sure taking it different from the folks on the other board that were living thru it and reporting it as it happened!!!!! I was also reading it as they posted it. I felt like I was right there with them...... They were all awake and watching it as it happened! Just sayin!!!!!! 

A lot of the crimes in Atlanta are black on black crimes, and it was a foreigner who broke in our car and stole my husbands. Both cause of drugs!!!!!!




RVGRINGO said:


> Mexico Babe started this thread shortly after the incident. Since then, she has posted fully half of the subsequent posts on the topic. All that from her home in Atlanta, Georgia. Meanwhile, most of us living in Chapala, even within earshot of the gunfire, slept through it all. The bad guys were 'sicaros', assassins hired by the various 'gangs' to take out their competition and/or the police. In fact, some were dressed as police. They are dead now & a few are critically wounded, saving the expense of 'bringing them to justice' as the NoB folks like to say. They aren't after 'civilians' and most of these incidents do happen late at night. This morning, Chapala is quite normal and we've both been out and about, separately, on foot and by car. Yes, there are headlines featuring the incident, and those occurring overnight in Guadalajara, as in any big city; one bus driver shot, one body in a suitcase, and a couple of other dead 'gang bangers'.
> So, is there anything else you want to know, 'Mexico Babe not yet in Mexico'?


----------



## RVGRINGO

If you haven't noticed, many of us do live in Chapala.


----------



## conorkilleen

I'm glad everyone is safe and sound. Try not to pass judgement on a location just because "something" bad happened once in a few years. If it starts happening everyday, then yes...worry.

Please be careful everyone...don't get too comfortable. As this incident just proved, it can happen anywhere. Its still a game of statistics.


----------



## DNP

I'm not looking for anyone to agree or disagree with me, but for right now i take my hat off to the Municipal Police for their intervention last night.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## maryellen1952

In 2006, I lived in Toluca Lake (outside Los Angeles city limits near Bubank) in an apartment complex where I was paying $1300/month for a 1 bedroom and we had at least once a month gunshots coming from around the area due to a nightclub as well as regular theft. I lived in Houston and had my car vandalized twice (for no reason other than juvenile boredom) and lived in Tijuana for 9 months and had no problems with crime despite the fact that Tijuana supposedly has the highest number of drug addicts in Mexico.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Evidently, the 'invaders' were 'sicaros' (hit men/assassins). Usually, they are recruited by the rival cartels to eliminate competition, or to eliminate local authorities who refuse to cooperate with them. The 'sicaros', are usually young men without employment and are easily recruited for fast cash, a bulletproof vest, fake police or army uniforms and heavy weapons. Naturally, being young, they feel invincible. Some are not even Mexican, as many are just passing through, enroute to the USA, but with a need for 'refinancing'. Guatemalans are particularly involved, and if they get to the USA will claim to be Mexican, in case of deportation. They know Mexico offers more than a return to Guatemala. One such Guatemalan was caught in Guadalajara on Monday, as part of a similar gang of 'sicaros'. Yesterday, they were all lined up and interviewed on TV; saying that they did it for money.


----------



## Mexico Babe

- Reveal official toll of the conflict in Chapala

Chapala, Jalisco (13/SEP/2011) .- Referring to
confrontation between gunmen in the town of Chapala,
the State Attorney General, Thomas Coronado
Olmos, announced that those involved are part of
criminal group 'The Resistance'.

He said not yet have the statements of those
injured, as authorities for
are waiting to receive the attention
medical and then be questioned.

"These days there and decisive action
coordination between authorities has been good, and the
result is precisely the arrest or depression
in violence against criminals, "said
the prosecutor.

As for the guns and grenades have been seized
in the latest arrests, have indicated that
information coming from the neighboring United States and
are provided by groups supporting cells
criminal are established in Jalisco.

Fusion of cartels and the struggle for control of Chapala,
cause of violence

In recent days and at different times, both the
Jalisco state attorney, Thomas Coronado Olmos
Public Security Secretary of the State of Jalisco
(SSPEJ) Luis Carlos Najera Gutierrez de Velasco,
confirmed, following the capture of several cells
criminal, breaking and splitting of the organization
criminal-called Resistance, of which one
party allied with 'Knights Templar' by
Michoacán and the other party with 'The Zetas', so that
are continuing to clashes between rival gangs,
who are disputing certain regions of the state by the
control the sale of narcotics.

Such is the case of municipalities in the region Slough
Jalisco, as Tizapán El Alto, Tuxcueca, Jocotepec
Ocotlan Jamay, Atotonilco El Alto, Degollado, La Barca
Chapala, among other municipalities.

Lakeside Being the most coveted by groups
antagonistic drug, specifically by
M 'The Knights Templar-resistance' against
'The Resistance' The Zetas'.

Chronology

1. 1 .- At the junction of the main Avenida Francisco
I. Madero and Calle Morelos, the same that leads to
Ajijic and Jocotepec, was on the sidewalk a luxurious
Nissan Titan pickup, blue, model
recent half-wall that toppled Restaurant
Superior, located in the street from the Presidency
Municipal addition to the traffic light was in the
crossing itself.

2. Approximately 50 feet away, on the
Morelos street, but with direction Ajijic, was the
Ford Lobo, late model, and even side
it the bodies of two suspected assassins.

3. In between trucks, compared to a bank,
was a municipal police patrol, which
found with several gunshot wounds.

4. On the street and Avenida Morelos Francisco I.
Madero, but towards facilities
Chapala Municipal Police, was another patrol
little damage to its structure.

The report / John Martin Patino SAFE


----------



## RVGRINGO

I see that you have 'cut and pasted' a rather bad machine translation, which will confuse most, if they try to make sense of it. It would be better if you simply posted the link to the original article, so that we could read it in Spanish, or translate it correctly. 
I don't doubt that the moderators will delete this post and yours, as a violation of the rules.


----------



## Mexico Babe

Another link to another story..

Chapala police take down armed gang in downtown shootout, two dead | Guadalajara Reporter


----------



## Mexico Babe

Link to first story...

Sicarios abatidos y capturados en Chapala podrían pertencer a cártel :: El Informador


----------



## RVGRINGO

That's much better and much more informative. Actually, the Spanish article does have much more information and the comments following it are an interesting read; very telling of the Mexican population's thoughts on Chapala and on the 'sicaros' who were taken down so efficiently.
Thanks.


----------



## conklinwh

I think all of us are basically trying to explore the range of options between being an ostrich with it's head in the sand and being chicken little. I've certainly found myself in uncomfortable situations in many large cities but still not sure how I would react to an AK47 exchange outside my gate.


----------



## karinamex

*Ballacera in Chapala*



Mexico Babe said:


> Has anyone heard about the shoot out in Chapala that has been going on for the last little bit???? Hundreds of rounds shot and some dead. One fake cop was killed from what I understand.... Lord, if my husband hears about his he will not move to Mexico!!! I hope all innocent people were safe.


We heard police sirens heading toward Chapala about 11:30 and followed the action as the people close to the scene tweeted. It was a shootout between La Resistencia, a fairly new Cartel and the police. Hundreds of shots were fired using everything from handguns to assault weapons. Two of the "bad guys" were killed and several wounded when their fragmentation grenade exploded prematurely.
One truck crashed through the wall of a restaurant, the traffic light in the centre of the town was destroyed and there are many bullet holes in the walls of the houses where the ballecera took place. I believe there were four deaths in all and several wounded. One of the dead was a fake cop. They frequently dress as police in order to confuse the real police. It was very scary for the people in Chapala and has really put a damper on the Independence Day celebrations scheduled throughout Mexico tomorrow. It's a tragic turn of events for the people of a wonderful country.


----------



## theladygeorge

I am interested to know how the expats in the area are responding are they in enough fear to think of leaving and coming stateside, or going to another village not affected, or taking it in stride and being street smart only. When I was there Nov '10 the running joke was that bad guys are good shots and not to worry plus it is not an area bad guys are attracted to.
I got an email telling me 'it's not good do your homework'. But she is not leaving either so which is it?


----------



## pappabee

theladygeorge said:


> I am interested to know how the expats in the area are responding are they in enough fear to think of leaving and coming stateside, or going to another village not affected, or taking it in stride and being street smart only. When I was there Nov '10 the running joke was that bad guys are good shots and not to worry plus it is not an area bad guys are attracted to.
> I got an email telling me 'it's not good do your homework'. But she is not leaving either so which is it?


If you would PLEASE take a look at earlier posts from RV and some of the others you will see a clear idea of what the residents are feeling. I haven't seen ANY posts from people who are planning on moving.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Except for the missing traffic light in Chapala's main intersection, all seems normal and everyone is going about their business. There is a Federales presence, quietly keeping an eye on things from their lunch table. Taking it in stride is all one can do.


----------



## Guest

Today's a new day. Would you consider moving if the cops there got into a shoot-out with liquor store robbers, or if your neighbor just got carjacked at the mall, or if there was rioting in the streets? (I lived in LA during the Rodney King aftermath).

Despite the NOB media propaganda and sensationalism on events in MX, I don't know anyone who has lived in MX for any length of time who would ever consider going back NOB. I can think of these exceptions: 1) if one suffered a serious health issue, didn't speak Spanish and bought into the false notion that somehow many doctors and the private health system in MX weren't equal to those NOB, at a much lower cost. 2) They picked a really bad barrio in somewhere like Ciudad Juarez to live or 3) they had an illegal drug habit.

I would only worry if I was a cokehead ****** living in MX, but I'm not. I don't know anyone here in MX who uses or abuses drugs. Do you?


----------



## Amiga

I am new to the area, having retired and moved down last spring. I have no plans to leave the area just because a couple of hoods decide to "drive thru Chapala" and cause trouble.
I'm not out on the streets...........I don't use drugs, I am careful. I love it here and I refuse to live my life in fear! If this were to become a daily or nightly occurance, I may have to "just stay home at night instead!" Lovin It Here!!


----------



## FHBOY

*Jaded?*

I read the articles and looked at the pictures. As far as I can see, it is no more dangerous in Chapala than here in Baltimore or where I was raised, NYC. I hate to say this but stuff happens - and you just do your best to hope it doesn;t happen to you.

Still and all, an incident like this does not deter our determination. Look, wherever you go, even stepping out off a curb, you take a risk. The trick is marginalize it. For me that means the Lake area, rather than, por exemplo, Nuevo Laredo or even recently Mazatlan (so I hear).

I am sure the Mexican government, and the Jalisco policia know that this area is a good growth one, economically, and like PV (I assume) it will be treated especialmente, less the gringos stop having their SSI money imported into the economy.

Question: RV and Papa - how frequently has this happened in the Lake area?


----------



## DNP

theladygeorge said:


> I am interested to know how the expats in the area are responding are they in enough fear to think of leaving and coming stateside, or going to another village not affected, or taking it in stride and being street smart only. When I was there Nov '10 the running joke was that bad guys are good shots and not to worry plus it is not an area bad guys are attracted to.
> I got an email telling me 'it's not good do your homework'. But she is not leaving either so which is it?


You and your husband must make your own decision.


----------



## FHBOY

*Maybe Analogous - But the point is the same*

I spent a year of my life living and studying in Israel in 1970-1971. The most frantic phone calls and letters (remember letters?) came from my family and friends who asked me if I heard about this or that incident and was I afraid, why I was traveling in the West Bank or East Jerusalem or on the Golan Heights, driving next to the norther border fence, and traveling in the Sinai and "BE CAREFUL!".

As mentioned, like this incident, the reporting we are getting outside of Chapala amplifies and magnifies the incident and those who are actually there, like I was, do not seem to be at all as alarmed. I would not be surprised if most learned about it in a newspaper or from a NoB person.

What I am saying is this: what we hear, what sells newspapers, is not usually what is happening to those in situ. I prefer to listen to them who are there (apologies to MexBabe, who like me is not there), rather than making a judgement on "how bad it is", because obviously it isn't.

And final soapbox...most of us here on the Forum have heard our friends, relatives and neighbors say, "How can you move to Mexico? It is so dangerous." And we have heard our answer to them, "No, it is really not, that's why I am/will be living there." One incident like this should not change our perspective. Believe me, after having witnessed a shooting in downtown Baltimore, this is a lot less dangerous.

As Edward R. Murrow said, "Good night and good luck."


----------



## DNP

FHBOY said:


> ... the reporting we are getting outside of Chapala amplifies and magnifies the incident and those who are actually there, like I was, do not...


I've read several published reports and also read the accounts of those who were there.

I have yet to see ONE published report that "amplified and magnified the incident"(your words) or in any way distorted what anyone who was their said, as THEY described it, in English and in their own words--NOT ONE! Those reports did say things like how many were dead, arrested, detained for questioning, and identified some of the groups thought to be involved, etc. They also reported that there are other law-enforcement agencies involved in an on-going investigation. Is THAT the magnifying and distorting you're lamenting? It's hard to imagine that an innocent bystander could pick all that up simply from what they saw, as important as what they saw is!


----------



## Mexico Babe

I have sent you a private message. Let me know if you got it.




FHBOY said:


> I spent a year of my life living and studying in Israel in 1970-1971. The most frantic phone calls and letters (remember letters?) came from my family and friends who asked me if I heard about this or that incident and was I afraid, why I was traveling in the West Bank or East Jerusalem or on the Golan Heights, driving next to the norther border fence, and traveling in the Sinai and "BE CAREFUL!".
> 
> As mentioned, like this incident, the reporting we are getting outside of Chapala amplifies and magnifies the incident and those who are actually there, like I was, do not seem to be at all as alarmed. I would not be surprised if most learned about it in a newspaper or from a NoB person.
> 
> What I am saying is this: what we hear, what sells newspapers, is not usually what is happening to those in situ. I prefer to listen to them who are there (apologies to MexBabe, who like me is not there), rather than making a judgement on "how bad it is", because obviously it isn't.
> 
> And final soapbox...most of us here on the Forum have heard our friends, relatives and neighbors say, "How can you move to Mexico? It is so dangerous." And we have heard our answer to them, "No, it is really not, that's why I am/will be living there." One incident like this should not change our perspective. Believe me, after having witnessed a shooting in downtown Baltimore, this is a lot less dangerous.
> 
> As Edward R. Murrow said, "Good night and good luck."


----------



## theladygeorge

DNP said:


> You and your husband must make your own decision.


No husband just a 63 yrs old woman. Got a great boyfriend though! I want to echo the sentiments of most of the post by saying I have every intention of heading there. I am a product of 'La Mission" in SF CA and lived in Honduras through a government coup in 1961. That stinking shoot out 'incident' is not enough to change or even influence me to not go. But I wanted to get the temp of the folks living there. lane:


----------



## theladygeorge

Mexico Babe said:


> I'm not sayin I'm too scared to go live in Chapala!!!! But everyone on this board is sure taking it different from the folks on the other board that were living thru it and reporting it as it happened!!!!! I was also reading it as they posted it. I felt like I was right there with them...... They were all awake and watching it as it happened! Just sayin!!!!!!
> 
> A lot of the crimes in Atlanta are black on black crimes, and it was a foreigner who broke in our car and stole my husbands. Both cause of drugs!!!!!!


I hope I am not over stepping but with all those exclamation marks you seem to have fear and doubt already built in and that incident just fueled your doubts and fears. 
I find these post reassuring and informative. Mostly because these folks live there and are posting their take on what happened and their reaction. Drugs and poverty are everywhere, singling race and foreigners is a red flag that maybe you are more comfortable stateside. 
Personally I would rather go through an incident like this than wake up and find some white collar guy just ripped off all my retirement money. It's all about perception and postive thinking. Just sayin'


----------



## RVGRINGO

Very well said. I also noticed the 'racist' comment and began to think, as you did, that Mexico may not be the place for this poster. The stimulation of a vivid imagination from afar is how propaganda works, isn't it?


----------



## Mexico Babe

Ya got it all wrong sister. Go to chapala.com and look for the thread shoot out in chapala. I was reading it as it happened!!!!! I ain't scared, I just simply stated cant tell my husband about all of it!!!!!
if you don't like my!!!!! Tuff doody!!!!!!! I simply asked if anyone on this sight had heard it cause no one had commented on it!!!!!!!
Everyone on this site acts like it was nothing more than a mosquito bite!
I'll go where I wanna go and do what I wanna do!!!!! So be it!!!!!




theladygeorge said:


> I hope I am not over stepping but with all those exclamation marks you seem to have fear and doubt already built in and that incident just fueled your doubts and fears.
> I find these post reassuring and informative. Mostly because these folks live there and are posting their take on what happened and their reaction. Drugs and poverty are everywhere, singling race and foreigners is a red flag that maybe you are more comfortable stateside.
> Personally I would rather go through an incident like this than wake up and find some white collar guy just ripped off all my retirement money. It's all about perception and postive thinking. Just sayin'


----------



## Mexico Babe

RVGRINGO said:


> Very well said. I also noticed the 'racist' comment and began to think, as you did, that Mexico may not be the place for this poster. The stimulation of a vivid imagination from afar is how propaganda works, isn't it?


How the heck is saying black on black crimes is being racist?????? It's on the news everyday!!!! Good grief, get over your self RV !!!! You ain't god!!!!!!


----------



## conorkilleen

Mexico Babe said:


> How the heck is saying black on black crimes is being racist?????? It's on the news everyday!!!! Good grief, get over your self RV !!!! You ain't god!!!!!!


This is the internet. Don't get to upset at what others say. RV is not god, he may be "a" god, just not "the" god. Thinking you are god on the internet is like bragging that you are the tallest midget.

What happened in Chapala may be scary for those living NOB. If one incident of a shooting scared you or your husband away then maybe then Mexico is not right for you.

I live in Monterrey. 52 people in a Casino fire 3 weeks back, 30 something shot is a bar a few months ago, people hanging from bridges, ect ect ect. Does not happen everyday, but still makes you cautious. 

Just be happy that the police are killing these guys and not putting them in jail. They eventually get out and start the terror again.


----------



## Detailman

This is just a general comment from someone who has regularly followed this forum for almost three years although I have only recently joined.

If individuals were aware of how much helpful, practical and sage advice has voluntarily been provided by numerous senior expats over the years, (some with hundreds and thousands of posts) they would not be so quick to lose their "cool" and make snide remarks when some of these expats show a little bit of frustration over individuals that bring up the same things again and again. Do you realize how frustrating that is? Sometimes a person just wonders how many times and how many different ways something has to be repeated before the point is understood!

This doesn't just apply to this particular thread but to any and all threads. You could say this goes both ways but in all fairness I would give experienced expats a bit more leeway than I would newbies or those that have not even experienced Mexico yet.

As a side comment I would say that anyone that gets so easily frustrated by written comments and opinions will not be a good fit for Mexico as here you will have some frustrations when everything is not exactly as you want or expect. You have to have a more open mindset.

Keep up the good work senior expats and moderators. There are many of us who deeply value your hard work and willingness to share your wealth of life experiences and Mexico related experiences with those of us who are willing to "listen and learn." Mucho Gracias!


----------



## RVGRINGO

Ah ha! Someone who understands. Thank you!
I'll also comment that sometimes the intended humor doesn't always transcend cultures, language differences or even regional attitudes; nor does a tongue in cheek poke. Of my thousands of posts, you are correct; a lot of them are repeats for 'newbies' who ask the same questions that others have asked before. I don't really mind, but I sometimes make them shorter and not as sweet. Hey, I'm old and tired, but I've been here over a decade.


----------



## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> Ah ha! Someone who understands. Thank you!
> I'll also comment that sometimes the intended humor doesn't always transcend cultures, language differences or even regional attitudes; nor does a tongue in cheek poke. Of my thousands of posts, you are correct; a lot of them are repeats for 'newbies' who ask the same questions that others have asked before. I don't really mind, but I sometimes make them shorter and not as sweet. Hey, I'm old and tired, but I've been here over a decade.


I know that as I am one that has learned much from you personally. You have covered hundreds upon hundreds of subjects and answers over the years. Invaluable when you combine that with the other senior expats (too many to name all of you but you are all to be commended!)

Sadly in this life there is not enough commendation and far too much criticism.


----------



## Mexico Babe

I did not ask a stupid question on here that had been asked and answered many times over. I asked about a recent event and then all HELL broke loose. No one is making anybody answer questions they don't want to. All they have to do is close the page or turn off their p.c. Exclamation points don't mean anger, only stressing things! But you go ahead and read it the way you want to read it.


----------



## theladygeorge

Mexico Babe said:


> Ya got it all wrong sister. Go to chapala.com and look for the thread shoot out in chapala. I was reading it as it happened!!!!! I ain't scared, I just simply stated cant tell my husband about all of it!!!!!
> if you don't like my!!!!! Tuff doody!!!!!!! I simply asked if anyone on this sight had heard it cause no one had commented on it!!!!!!!
> Everyone on this site acts like it was nothing more than a mosquito bite!
> I'll go where I wanna go and do what I wanna do!!!!! So be it!!!!!


 Slow your roll.....It's suppose to be friendly on this site for petes sake. BTW I went to 3 sites and spoke via email to a lady living there. Latin up and relax. It's Q & A and that's all...:ranger:


----------



## Detailman

Mexico Babe said:


> I did not ask a stupid question on here that had been asked and answered many times over. I asked about a recent event and then all HELL broke loose. No one is making anybody answer questions they don't want to. All they have to do is close the page or turn off their p.c. Exclamation points don't mean anger, only stressing things! But you go ahead and read it the way you want to read it.


My comment was a general comment applicable to all threads and not directed at any one individual, although you seem to have taken it personally. Never did I refer to anyone's questions as "stupid." I was simply trying to put myself in someone's else's position - that of the senior expats. It is called empathy or fellow feeling.

Having said that, your anger is coming through loud and clear to anyone reading this site. You certainly take a definitive stance. You state: "No one is making anybody answer questions they don't want to. All they have to do is close the page or turn off their p.c."

Do you really think that the senior expats, if they disagree with you, should turn off their computers, vacate the site and leave the thread? To whom? You? Are you making a move to commandeer the forum?

Listen to what you are saying. Relax. Have a martini. Make it two. Mellow out!


----------



## theladygeorge

RVGRINGO said:


> Ah ha! Someone who understands. Thank you!
> I'll also comment that sometimes the intended humor doesn't always transcend cultures, language differences or even regional attitudes; nor does a tongue in cheek poke. Of my thousands of posts, you are correct; a lot of them are repeats for 'newbies' who ask the same questions that others have asked before. I don't really mind, but I sometimes make them shorter and not as sweet. Hey, I'm old and tired, but I've been here over a decade.


Not to worry RV ****** aka God.... The posters local middle school called and wants their attitude back so I sniched and told them where to find it :boxing:


----------



## Mexico Babe

No, I did not mean if they did not agree with me. I meant if they got tired of answering everyone's questions over and over.




Detailman said:


> My comment was a general comment applicable to all threads and not directed at any one individual, although you seem to have taken it personally. Never did I refer to anyone's questions as "stupid." I was simply trying to put myself in someone's else's position - that of the senior expats. It is called empathy or fellow feeling.
> 
> Having said that, your anger is coming through loud and clear to anyone reading this site. You certainly take a definitive stance. You state: "No one is making anybody answer questions they don't want to. All they have to do is close the page or turn off their p.c."
> 
> Do you really think that the senior expats, if they disagree with you, should turn off their computers, vacate the site and leave the thread? To whom? You? Are you making a move to commandeer the forum?
> 
> Listen to what you are saying. Relax. Have a martini. Make it two. Mellow out!


----------



## holodeck

When you type in CAPS it is called yelling. When you type in !!!!!!! it is called screeching.


----------



## Mexico Babe

holodeck said:


> When you type in CAPS it is called yelling. When you type in !!!!!!! it is called screeching.


Think what you want.......... My husband types in all caps cause it is easier for him to see..................


----------



## pappabee

Mexico Babe said:


> Think what you want.......... My husband types in all caps cause it is easier for him to see..................


OK enough of this. FYI is has been an acceptable practice ever since we moved from the green backdrop of a bulletinboard to the Internet that when you type in capitals you do so for emphasis and usually when you are upset. Your husband may type in capitals for another reason but that doesn't change the accepted understandings. :focus:


----------



## FHBOY

*Two Things*

I have enjoyed this thread, and generally enjoy the site. Unlike political or news sites, we are all here just to exchange information.

First, in response to my "amplify and magnify" comment, I did not mean the articles from the news themselves, but from some reaction comments. I believe, had I not been a member here, we in Baltimore would have never even heard about the incident, I mean if it doesn't have to do with the Ravens, we don't hear about anything. [BTW is Calvin Coolidge still President? - I've been in Baltimore waaaay too long!  )

Second, as a older geezer, I've learned the language of the internet, ALL CAPS, !!!!exclamation points, WTF, OMG, BFF IMHO and the ever present LOL. Indeed it is new language where tonality and voice cannot play a factor, and that's what makes it so difficult, when less than 30% of what we communicate is in our words, the other 70% or more is inflection, tonality, volume and of course body language.

People, let's just get along - I still love coming here, even when we disagree we are civil to each other - that's a rare and wonderful thing in this world of confrontation. And yes, I will state an opinion and hope that y'all state opinions also and we may also give "facts" and some of them may not be correct, but all of us, communicating together are a lot better off, heck, we all know more about what some of us have done and others are planning to do than those who have yet to discover the Forum.

BTW - I communicate with a person who had cataract surgery and uses all caps because that is all he can see, so I have to use it too. Can you imagine what it is like to try and emphasis a point when the all caps tool no longer works?

End of sermon


----------



## theladygeorge

BTW - I communicate with a person who had cataract surgery and uses all caps because that is all he can see, so I have to use it too. Can you imagine what it is like to try and emphasis a point when the all caps tool no longer works?

End of sermon[/QUOTE]

Well said!
Another solution for those folks (like me) that have glasses that grow legs and move where I can not find them is to hold down the CTRL key and hit the + sign it will magnify the screen.
Peace eace:


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> BTW - I communicate with a person who had cataract surgery and uses all caps because that is all he can see, so I have to use it too. Can you imagine what it is like to try and emphasis a point when the all caps tool no longer works?


Has your friend looked into software that can help? Macintoshes have built-in systems that can magnify parts of the screen. I assume Windows boxes must have something similar.


----------



## theladygeorge

To shrink: Hold the CTRL key and hit the - key


----------



## TundraGreen

theladygeorge said:


> To shrink: Hold the CTRL key and hit the - key


Ctrl +/- works in a browser. There is also software that will enlarge everything, email, word documents, spreadsheets, etc.


----------



## RVGRINGO

The Mac can do it all; no need for extra software.


----------



## pappabee

In the Microsoft products there is two different ways to find the +/- function. In some programs you must look into the "view" tab and in others there is a % tab in the tool bar. 

There is really no reason to get other software but if you must then look at 'freeware' products. They do a great job and it's at no cost.


----------



## TundraGreen

pappabee said:


> In the Microsoft products there is two different ways to find the +/- function. In some programs you must look into the "view" tab and in others there is a % tab in the tool bar.
> 
> There is really no reason to get other software but if you must then look at 'freeware' products. They do a great job and it's at no cost.


For Apple Macintoshes, go to:
Apple Menu->System Preferences->Universal Access->Seeing tab 
and turn on "Zoom".


----------



## tdemex

I've been on the Inet for 20 years. I've been through many forums and the repeats are all part of the deal. The newbies can't be expected to read all the posts, so repeats are the norm. It's the ones that have the patients to deal with it. That make it a good or ... forum.
Back to the topic, I also live in Monterrey and remember how peaceful it was just two years ago. I also remember the first Shoot Out near our area and how we blew it off...LOL! Now it's bombs and sireins even helicopters on a nightly basis, even seen a few hanging off the overpasses dead by their ankles. I wouldn't take anything lightly in Mexico anywhere....


----------



## FHBOY

*Not Lightly, but Where*

TD: You are correct. We do hear that some areas of Mexico have more problems than others, just like we know cities and areas of the US have more problems than others. Here is where we all, here, on the Forum come in. We have people from all over telling us all what they have found and helping us to make our decision based on the "news" posted here as well as the media.

Would I settle in Monterrey? No, after reading I don't think so, but what I fear is the generalization that is current in the US: Mexico is a dangerous place to live! It is no more dangerous than Baltimore, if you know where to live (well, I guess that goes with anything) - sorry about rambling.


----------



## MattK

I don’t want to reopen old wounds here, but I came across this thread today and was surprised by what I had read. I’m sorry, but I find it to be incredible that so many on here would react to this as if it were a nonevent considering the progression of violence in the last 5 years across Mexico. I applaud the Mexican government for their efforts and believe that eventually this thing will be gotten under control, but I would not go so far as to say that all is well in Lake Chapala or any other place in Mexico at this point. Even more surprising to me was the overwhelmingly condescending rebuke from most of you in response to Mexico Babe’s post. I don’t get where that came from. Do you guys work for the Chamber of Commerce down there or something? I did not feel that she was being alarmist, but rather that she was concerned and looking for more information, which to me is an entirely appropriate response. 

My ties are to Monterrey. I was staying in a good part of Santa Catarina this spring. One evening I was sitting out back enjoying a beer with a friend when we heard sporadic gunfire. We went inside, turned out the lights, and locked the doors. This turned into 20 minutes of nonstop automatic weapon fire with 3 grenades going off. It sounded like a war was going on just down the street from our house. My reaction was certainly not to brush it off as nothing. I stayed another month, reluctantly. Now you may say “that is Monterrey, we are a far ways off from Monterrey,” but I’ll remind you that 4 years ago people in Monterrey were saying “that is only a problem in Juarez” and 3 years ago they were saying “that is way over in Nuevo Laredo.” Similarly, a year ago the people of Acapulco and Veracruz couldn’t see what was coming their way either. Additionally, in reference to Pappabee’s post, I doubt that Chicago, New York, or Cleveland have seen a 20 minute gun battle with grenades and automatic weapons since the days of Al Capone, nor do I recollect ever hearing about people being chopped up and left on display in conspicuous places in the United States. This is scary stuff and they have become regular occurrences across Mexico. 

Do I think you guys will be fine? Most likely. If you are comfortable with your situation, great, but there is certainly reason for concern. 

There is a story from yesterday's Dallas News entitled "Americans living in the Mexican state of Jalisco see signs of rising security threat". Apparently there are expat residents of Lake Chapala that are concerned. 


I’m ready for your arrows. Fire at will.


----------



## RVGRINGO

If you are comfortable with being 'concerned' all the time, you can't enjoy life. None of us like what is happening with these occasional battles between warring factions, but we're also helpless to prevent them. Aside from the momentary upset of the status quo, life goes on normally. Those who panic at the sound of gunfire will pack up and move, but those who can experience such things without panicking will stay put.
What happens here seems very targeted, while up north there is random death for little or no reason. That makes a great deal of difference to some. So, if you feel more comfortable in Milwaukee, put down roots and stay there. As soon as vacation season heats up, you'll hear more ranting in the press about Mexico's dangers; intended to keep tourist dollars from flowing there. That kind of dirty propaganda has happened before, whenever the country has a financial problem. It is also doing all it can to keep tourists from visiting the USA. It is called isolationism and fear of 'the other'. None of it bodes well for anyone, anywhere.


----------



## Detailman

MattK,
There is an old saying: “He that is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”

People are entitled to hold whatever opinions they want, whether they be based on fact or fiction, documented information or self-held insecurities.

I am aware that many of the people posting to this forum have lived in Ajijic/Chapala for 5, 10 or even 15 years. I also know that many of the posters are senior citizens. Some are in their seventies. They are not naïve. Many of them are world travellers and adventurers. Many of them are highly educated and have served in numerous positions and countries around the world. If they feel secure in living where they do – I respect their opinion. I give more weight to their opinion that I would to those living NOB, unless they have spent considerable time in Mexico.

My wife and I are both senior citizens and we felt secure in Ajijic/Chapala each time we have been there and look forward to our next trip very soon. I am an avid reader but at no time do I take everything that I read to be the “gospel.” That does not always sell papers or make the news. I use my hard earned acumen and discernment to sort through fact and fiction.

As an example: The Globe and Mail of September 21, 2011 RE VANCOUVER, BC GANG VIOLENCE
HEADLINE: GANG TASK FORCE ISSUES PUBLIC WARNING AS VIOLENCE INTENSIFIES

“I’m not trying to instill fear in the citizens,” said Superintendent Tom McCluskie, who leads the gang task force. “But certainly there’s enough tension that we’re concerned that there will be retaliation, that there will be further violence. It’s not the general public that they’re after. It’s each other. What I’m concerned about is the public venues by which they display their violence.”

“A gang war plagued the Lower Mainland in early 2009 with shootings a near-daily occurrence.”

From this report and earlier headlines all through 2009 or the more recent headlines in the last two months you could use the same rational that some posters to this forum use. These headlines sell newspapers and make the TV news. Are they true? Mostly – although much of what is said is somewhat out of context (See the following paragraph). Would you say that Vancouver is a dangerous place to live? THAT WOULD NOT BE A FACT. 

In 2008 The Economist listed Vancouver as the #1 city in the entire world to live in. It repeated this award in 2009, the same year that the gang warfare was at its worst. Vancouver was #1 again in 2010. Guess what? In 2011 Vancouver dropped to the third best city in the world. #1 was Melbourne and #2 was Vienna. Did Vancouver lose out because of violence? NO – they lost out due to a number of traffic jams on the Malahat Highway (That is a highway on Vancouver Island, which requires a two hour ferry trip and a one hour drive to even get to.) What can be said about their background research? 

I have lived my entire life in Vancouver along with my wife. We both feel completely safe and so do all our numerous friends. Yes, there are places I would avoid and I always use common sense but other than that I do not live in any fear of the Vancouver environment -- AND I felt safer in Chapala/Ajijic. There I walked late at night back to our residence and that is something I would not normally do in various areas of Vancouver. Only my opinion.

But remember: “Opinions are like rectums – everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs doesn’t stink!”

DETAILMAN


----------



## tdemex

I noticed the same thing here I like this site. But in my opinion some here are in denial, the press no longer reports, some of the shoot outs in Monterrey, and I'm sure other cities as well. Talked to my wife in Monterrey yesterday and she said there were more killings on the road from Laredo to Monterrey (Toll road), but here people still tell me how safe it is?


----------



## Detailman

tdemex said:


> I noticed the same thing here I like this site. But in my opinion some here are in denial, the press no longer reports, some of the shoot outs in Monterrey, and I'm sure other cities as well. Talked to my wife in Monterrey yesterday and she said there were more killings on the road from Laredo to Monterrey (Toll road), but here people still tell me how safe it is?


What all should remember is that this thread started re "Shoot Out in Chapala." Many of the original comments were related to that subject and gave the local observations of those that lived in this area. No-one was denying the dangers of "some" other cities in Mexico. Some cities in Mexico probably deserve their dangerous reputations due to the extreme unbridled violence whereas others are being overhyped by the news media the same as Vancouver, British Columia has been at times. Others are relatively safe or even safer than the average city in Canada or USA.

One cannot and should not speak in generalities. You can't lump all areas and cities in Mexico into the same basket. Those in Chapala feel relatively safe and that is why they choose to live there. Others may not feel safe in Monterrey and that may be with good reason.

I personally feel safe living in a condo in Burnaby (part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District) but that does not mean that I would feel safe in living in an apartment in a run down area of the east side of Vancouver or on skid row.

Your argument is only as good as its weakest point. Let's please try to compare apples to apples. Yemen is not Chicago. Chicago is not Monterrey. Monterrey is not Chapala.
Everyone -- do your homework and live where you feel safe. Let's others make the same determination and live where they feel safe. What's the problem??


----------



## RVGRINGO

One last piece of advice: You cannot make your decision based upon the news media, rumors or the narrow lens of a TV camera. You must be present and evaluate for yourself after a bit of time and getting to know the area and the people.
News media are biased politically, geographically challenged and motivated by the commercial aspect.
Rumors grow like fish stories and soon smell 'fishy'.
The TV lens can show a "riot" of ten people surrounded by peaceful onlookers, or it can show the bodies in the streets, as they do in Mexico, but not tell you that they were all 'narcotraficantes', drug dealers and their thugs, both male and female, sometimes disguised as policemen, as they were in Chapala.
A big difference in Mexico is that the authorities don't warn or chase the bad guys; they shoot them dead! That's a good thing.


----------



## FHBOY

*Murder Capital of the US*

I believe that my city, Baltimore, holds or held that title for many years. Does it mean that the whole city and region is dangerous? Of course not. If you were to pick up our local paper, The Sun, and read it, you'd not want to live within 50 miles of the place. But that, as RV says is the lens of the newspaper. Listen to the local news, after the 3 minute lead on the economy, shootings, robberies, rapes - again the narrow lens of the media.

I live in a close in Baltimore suburb where I can leave my front door unlocked (mostly accidentally) and nothing will happen. It is why I chose to live there. Why would I choose to live in one of the more dangerous areas? I did my research before I came here, although there was no internet or Forums like this - and knew the areas that were "safer".

Same thing about any place we choose to live - there will always be good and bad, it is up to us to make the right move based on more than the media.

The internet and by example this thread, is a better "lens" with which to judge. I am glad we have had this dialog about Chapala, it shows me what "real people" have thought of the incident, not the stories to sell newspapers. 

We should expand this to other areas of Mexico: If you are planning to move, post where you want o go and ask those who live there your questions - it will be interesting to read them. When there is a negative media report, get the reaction of the "real" people with whom you will live, find out what they think. 

Do I have any second thoughts of moving to Chapala/Ajijic? Absolutely none - crime will be with us no matter where we go, but one isolated incident in the two years I have been studying and researching my move does not make me want to stop.

As we say - S**T HAPPENS - just take all the needed steps, make the intelligent choices and stay out of the way.


----------



## pappabee

According to the World Trade Council Mexico is not a ‘third world nation’ it is an ‘emerging nation’. (An emerging nation is a country that is on its way to becoming an industrialized nation. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Mexico is still growing into the progressive nation that we claim the US is already. (Enough of that). Years ago Selma AL, Jackson Ms and even Kent Oh were not safe places to be depending on different factors. The KKK, anti-war protests and the race riots caused a lot of concerns for residents. For the most part the US has grown out of that by now. 

As RV implied in the US the police have to give a suspect three pages of rights, get the blood type and a signed release before shooting at them. In Mexico they just shoot and sort out the rest later. I once heard a LA Police Captain say that they really don’t do much work when one gang member kills another. It’s just two less gang members on the street. In Mexico most of the killings are gang against gang. Either drug gang or street gang. Those 32 dead bodies recently were all gang members. One cartel getting rid of members of another. According to the Guad Reporter in 2010 only 111 foreigners were killed in Mexico. The rest of the killings were gang against gang or gang against police. 

There are places in both countries that are not safe and others that are. I would not go into a bar in Mexico City or Chapala and pay for drinks with a wad of cash. Neither would I go into a bar in Dallas TX or Kent Oh and do the same. You just don’t carry a sign “I’ve got it, come get it”.

The real bottom line is you use your smarts and don’t invite trouble, either here in Mexico or there in the States. And IMHO here there are a lot more positives than negatives. It is a wonderful place to stop and smell the roses.


----------



## ch40

IMO you are realistic. Watching events unfold and reading news reports; knowing everything isn't reported, has convinced me that what's happening in the area is the beginning of a change that I am not comfortable with. While I am not there to make an assessment on the ground, I think distance may make me more objective. It's very sad and I don't know what I would do if we were already settled there -- comparisons to the USA are silly (there, I said it) since there is no comparison. I could be the victim of random violence in the states but I'm not likely to witness gunfights with military grade weapons and grenades outside my door, piles of bodies near the mall, gang roadblocks outside my city or bodies hanging from bridges on my way to work. My odds are dramatically reduced by staying away from unsafe neighborhoods which is easy to do.I wish you all the best and good luck in whatever you decide to do


----------



## Detailman

ch40 said:


> IMO you are realistic. Watching events unfold and reading news reports; knowing everything isn't reported, has convinced me that what's happening in the area is the beginning of a change that I am not comfortable with. While I am not there to make an assessment on the ground, I think distance may make me more objective. It's very sad and I don't know what I would do if we were already settled there -- comparisons to the USA are silly (there, I said it) since there is no comparison. I could be the victim of random violence in the states but I'm not likely to witness gunfights with military grade weapons and grenades outside my door, piles of bodies near the mall, gang roadblocks outside my city or bodies hanging from bridges on my way to work. My odds are dramatically reduced by staying away from unsafe neighborhoods which is easy to do.I wish you all the best and good luck in whatever you decide to do


Gunfight and grenades in Chapala? Correct. Outside people's doors. A little bit overblown. Piles of bodies near the mall? Where did that happen in Chapala? Bodies hanging from bridges? What are you talking about? Not in Chapala! Gang roadblocks outside my city?

You see, in talking about Chapala with some fact and truth you blend in a lot of things that are completely false when it comes to Chapala. You are blending what happened in other Mexican Cities with Chapala. Why? Do you think that adds to your argument? I do not. If you were in a court of law and were being cross examined you would be torn to shreds for your inaccuracies and generalities. Either stick with facts or get a job with the newspapers or the TV stations. I think you would do an excellent job because you are doing exactly what they do. Taking things out of context. Adding things to Chapala that never happened, etc.

If you are not replying directely to the shoot out in Chapala, why bring up bodies by malls and bodies hanging from bridges? As a detailman I find holes in your reasoning that I could drive a semi truck through.

But stay away from Chapala. You never know you could have some young kid throw an lime or lemon at you. Cheers.


----------



## Guest

*Quote Detailman:* *"But stay away from Chapala. You never know you could have some young kid throw an lime or lemon at you." *

I had to chuckle, as you seem to also have mixed truth with fiction.  The primary reason I have chosen to live in Mexico is for my daughter to grow up in a place where kids respect themselves and adults. Living here in Mexico is much like the Mayberry where I grew up, and kids still show respect and obedience. I seriously doubt that Chapala is any different in this aspect.

On those few occasions when I have visited "up north", it is very common to see teenaged kids and their parents arguing in public (if they want to be seen in public together), kids and many adults using bad language in many situations, and acting as if they were straight out of a modern Disney TV program with creepy spoiled brats like Lindsay Lohan as the actors. 

Thank God I don't experience that here. I will take the trade off of being around well behaved kids on a daily basis versus the long, long odds of being anywhere near a shootout in my city of choice.


----------



## FHBOY

pappabee said:


> According to the World Trade Council Mexico is not a ‘third world nation’ it is an ‘emerging nation’. (An emerging nation is a country that is on its way to becoming an industrialized nation. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> Mexico is still growing into the progressive nation that we claim the US is already. (Enough of that). Years ago Selma AL, Jackson Ms and even Kent Oh were not safe places to be depending on different factors. The KKK, anti-war protests and the race riots caused a lot of concerns for residents. For the most part the US has grown out of that by now.
> 
> As RV implied in the US the police have to give a suspect three pages of rights, get the blood type and a signed release before shooting at them. In Mexico they just shoot and sort out the rest later. I once heard a LA Police Captain say that they really don’t do much work when one gang member kills another. It’s just two less gang members on the street. In Mexico most of the killings are gang against gang. Either drug gang or street gang. Those 32 dead bodies recently were all gang members. One cartel getting rid of members of another. According to the Guad Reporter in 2010 only 111 foreigners were killed in Mexico. The rest of the killings were gang against gang or gang against police.
> 
> There are places in both countries that are not safe and others that are. I would not go into a bar in Mexico City or Chapala and pay for drinks with a wad of cash. Neither would I go into a bar in Dallas TX or Kent Oh and do the same. You just don’t carry a sign “I’ve got it, come get it”.
> 
> The real bottom line is you use your smarts and don’t invite trouble, either here in Mexico or there in the States. And IMHO here there are a lot more positives than negatives. It is a wonderful place to stop and smell the roses.


How long have you lived in Ajijic? And in that time, how much of this type of violence has occurred that has met with this type of reporting? Any other Chapala/Ajijic residents are invited to respond also.


----------



## ch40

Detailman said:


> Gunfight and grenades in Chapala? Correct. Outside people's doors. A little bit overblown. Piles of bodies near the mall? Where did that happen in Chapala? Bodies hanging from bridges? What are you talking about? Not in Chapala! Gang roadblocks outside my city?
> 
> You see, in talking about Chapala with some fact and truth you blend in a lot of things that are completely false when it comes to Chapala. You are blending what happened in other Mexican Cities with Chapala. Why? Do you think that adds to your argument? I do not. If you were in a court of law and were being cross examined you would be torn to shreds for your inaccuracies and generalities. Either stick with facts or get a job with the newspapers or the TV stations. I think you would do an excellent job because you are doing exactly what they do. Taking things out of context. Adding things to Chapala that never happened, etc.
> 
> If you are not replying directely to the shoot out in Chapala, why bring up bodies by malls and bodies hanging from bridges? As a detailman I find holes in your reasoning that I could drive a semi truck through.
> 
> But stay away from Chapala. You never know you could have some young kid throw an
> lime or lemon at you. Cheers.



Detailman ( a bit of a misnomer since I was responding to someone who was talking about several areas of Mexico, not just Lake Chapala)

I saw at least 2 photos, including one of a body, taken from inside someone's home during the shootout in Chapala in addition to people reporting on the situation outside Their homes in real time. 

The rest of my comments pertained to MattK's description of the spread of narco 
violence in other areas and his sincere warning to those Lakeside.

More importantly, these are my opinions. We all have them and I find it strange that you would attack with such fervor. How do you know your opinion is correct?

Trust me, I'm not a fearful person but I don't want to live my life looking over my shoulder or wondering if the roadblock up ahead is legit -I want to travel freely and peacefully. But that's only my opinion and I don't recall attacking you for yours.

Good luck to you


----------



## RVGRINGO

I liked Boston, except for 'the combat zone' and several other areas anytime, but especially at night. Scary!


----------



## Detailman

GringoCArlos said:


> *Quote Detailman:* *"But stay away from Chapala. You never know you could have some young kid throw an lime or lemon at you." *
> 
> I had to chuckle, as you seem to also have mixed truth with fiction.  The primary reason I have chosen to live in Mexico is for my daughter to grow up in a place where kids respect themselves and adults. Living here in Mexico is much like the Mayberry where I grew up, and kids still show respect and obedience. I seriously doubt that Chapala is any different in this aspect.
> 
> On those few occasions when I have visited "up north", it is very common to see teenaged kids and their parents arguing in public (if they want to be seen in public together), kids and many adults using bad language in many situations, and acting as if they were straight out of a modern Disney TV program with creepy spoiled brats like Lindsay Lohan as the actors.
> 
> Thank God I don't experience that here. I will take the trade off of being around well behaved kids on a daily basis versus the long, long odds of being anywhere near a shootout in my city of choice.


GringoCarlos,

I jested about a lime being thrown but in actual fact the last time in Ajijic for two months my wife and I were sitting on the balcony when all of a sudden a rock missed my wife's head by just a few inches and bounced off the house wall. We looked around and saw nothing. A minute later several rocks hit the roof and bounced. Then another one flew by our heads and again bounced off the wall. I looked everywhere but didn't see anyone. When one more rock hit the roof I took off running to the corner of the street. Down the street, and hidden by the large trees were three young boys with slingshots. They were shooting the rocks into the trees. They were simply flying right through and hitting where we were sitting. I gestured as to what was happening and they simply all laughed. I then took out my phone and told them I was calling the "policia"? With that they took off running with me chasing them for good measure just to throw a scare into them. If that first rock had hit my wife it could have taken her eye out.

Yes, kids will be kids. I was pretty upset and so was my wife until we gulped down a couple of margaritas. Cheers.


----------



## RVGRINGO

We find bits of stone, broken tile and concrete rubble on our roof; tossed up by tiny tots in the side street. They also aim for the unseen pool in the back yard, probably gaining 'points' when they hear a splash.
As we're planning the installation of a solar water system, I'm locating it outside of the 'field of fire'.


----------



## theladygeorge

[

There is a story from yesterday's Dallas News entitled "Americans living in the Mexican state of Jalisco see signs of rising security threat". Apparently there are expat residents of Lake Chapala that are concerned. 


I’m ready for your arrows. Fire at will.[/quote]

Concern is one thing dozens of exclamation marks is another that seemed more like panic than concern. You seem quite upset at what has happened so I must say to you too... maybe Mexico is not for you...Perception is reality so if you perceive danger you must act accordingly. I do not have the patience or inclination to find links showing the gun fire in our streets stateside. Thugs, drug killing? I live in Houston and wake up everyday to the news enough said. 
You seem to romanticize life in the US. 
You also seem to have a lets fight attitude which I will not indulge. Go home where you will be safe and comfy. 

'Don't believe everything you read on the internet'. Abraham Lincoln


----------



## FHBOY

*Comments on Dallas Times Article*

LadyGeorge: Please understand that this Forum is not one of personal attack and argument by assertion, as we are all used to on the other news/political forums and blogs. We here act civilly towards each other and may disagree with a position but I have rarely seen a personal attack.

:focus: That being said, from my home here in the US, I read the link to the Dallas Times article, One comment I have chosen to cut/paste here:

_Well if that story did lack some facts!, I have lived in Ajijic, Mexico for almost 10 years, I have never in anyway felt threatened, never been robbed, never had my home burglarized. There is a battle in Mexico with drug gangs, we know that. There is a battle in the USA with drug gangs, we all know that, the difference is the weapons in the USA are a lot more lethal then in Mexico. Between the guns you people in Texas smuggle across the border in to Mexico and your voracious appetite for illegal drugs, we would not have any problems. Mexico has a great economy, the cost of living, medical, groceries are much less expensive then the USA. We have perfect spring like weather all year long, no air or heat needed. The police are doing their job, and we thank the local municipal police for making sure we all stay safe, going after the bad guy, protecting the good guy. Every day we read about mass murders, kidnappings, shootings and death in the USA. Whats the difference, shopping mall in Tuscon, Az 9 die in gun battle, Carson city NV IHOP 4 die in gun battle, dead bodies on the beach on LI. I think the USA has a big problem with violence. I think the world consulates from around the world should ad the USA to a no visit country.

Michael Rosenblum_

I then further read another comment that pointed out while the headline mentioned Jalisco and the Lake, the reporter cited examples of violence in the border states, and made no further mention of Lake violence.

This is why we have this forum, so that those who are actually in the situation, those who see and live it, can give us, who are sympathetic to the area a more balanced view. The article spoke with four people. In all the time I have been here, no one has given the same picture of Ajijic/Chapala.

If one has a fear of going to a place, then one should not go. For example, I would never go to live in any of the Mexican northern border states, there has been too many reports of violence. Saying that, I am sure there are lovely and safe areas of the border states, except studying a move, why would anyone look to be in a so obvious "iffy" area? Just like in the US (and Canada, I assume) there are places that you would not want to move to, even though there may be lovely and beautiful living in a certain area of it. 

[In Baltimore City, there are beautiful gentrified homes selling for up to $300K that are in "yuppified" neighborhoods, with bars, and shoppes and such, but two blocks away are boarded up houses, with drug dealers, pimps and whores. No matter how nice the home/neighborhood there, I wouldn't choose to live there.]

RV Pointed out, rightly, that the news we read in the media is thru a lens...I again would ask those residents I have learned to trust on this Forum to add their comments as people on the ground.


----------



## theladygeorge

FHBOY said:


> LadyGeorge: Please understand that this Forum is not one of personal attack and argument by assertion, as we are all used to on the other news/political forums and blogs. We here act civilly towards each other and may disagree with a position but I have rarely seen a personal attack.
> 
> :focus: That being said, from my home here in the US, I read the link to the Dallas Times article, One comment I have chosen to cut/paste here:
> 
> _Well if that story did lack some facts!, I have lived in Ajijic, Mexico for almost 10 years, I have never in anyway felt threatened, never been robbed, never had my home burglarized. There is a battle in Mexico with drug gangs, we know that. There is a battle in the USA with drug gangs, we all know that, the difference is the weapons in the USA are a lot more lethal then in Mexico. Between the guns you people in Texas smuggle across the border in to Mexico and your voracious appetite for illegal drugs, we would not have any problems. Mexico has a great economy, the cost of living, medical, groceries are much less expensive then the USA. We have perfect spring like weather all year long, no air or heat needed. The police are doing their job, and we thank the local municipal police for making sure we all stay safe, going after the bad guy, protecting the good guy. Every day we read about mass murders, kidnappings, shootings and death in the USA. Whats the difference, shopping mall in Tuscon, Az 9 die in gun battle, Carson city NV IHOP 4 die in gun battle, dead bodies on the beach on LI. I think the USA has a big problem with violence. I think the world consulates from around the world should ad the USA to a no visit country.
> 
> Michael Rosenblum_
> 
> I then further read another comment that pointed out while the headline mentioned Jalisco and the Lake, the reporter cited examples of violence in the border states, and made no further mention of Lake violence.
> 
> This is why we have this forum, so that those who are actually in the situation, those who see and live it, can give us, who are sympathetic to the area a more balanced view. The article spoke with four people. In all the time I have been here, no one has given the same picture of Ajijic/Chapala.
> 
> If one has a fear of going to a place, then one should not go. For example, I would never go to live in any of the Mexican northern border states, there has been too many reports of violence. Saying that, I am sure there are lovely and safe areas of the border states, except studying a move, why would anyone look to be in a so obvious "iffy" area? Just like in the US (and Canada, I assume) there are places that you would not want to move to, even though there may be lovely and beautiful living in a certain area of it.
> 
> [In Baltimore City, there are beautiful gentrified homes selling for up to $300K that are in "yuppified" neighborhoods, with bars, and shoppes and such, but two blocks away are boarded up houses, with drug dealers, pimps and whores. No matter how nice the home/neighborhood there, I wouldn't choose to live there.]
> 
> RV Pointed out, rightly, that the news we read in the media is thru a lens...I again would ask those residents I have learned to trust on this Forum to add their comments as people on the ground.


I sincerely apologize to anyone that in any way felt attacked. My response was a knee jerk reaction to the post. I did not realize how strong by post was. 
I am at my wits end here in Houston when I mention my plan to live in Mexico I get eye brows up and the 'I read on the internet or paper"..
Thank you for taking the time to find correct information and a balanced comment.


----------



## pappabee

I also read the article and first and foremost I don’t understand why those people who were interviewed didn’t want their full names used, except for the one lady. The excuse is that they were afraid of either being deported or have reprisals taken against them. 

Out of something like 3000+ expats here he was able to find 12 who had some concerns. I wonder how many he did’t use because they didn’t agree with him?
It just shows me that the article is slanted without a backward glance. 

Here’s the exact quote: “In interviews with more than a dozen expatriates from the U.S. and Canada, most did not want their full names used because of fear of reprisal from criminal organizations or the risk of being deported — the Mexican constitution prohibits foreigners from meddling in domestic affairs.”

I can understand some people not wanting to be put on notice that they were truly concerned about a perceived increase in violence. That could make some sense but since over 90% of the deaths in Mexico in 2011 were the result of gang members killing other gang members if you do as has been suggested here, the problem for the expat is very slight. Statically less than in most US cities. 

There is a Mexican Law that says that foreign nationals are not allow to become involved in Mexican Politics but Mexico does not have ANY law that says an expat cannot speak his/her mind in a limited public forum. We do that all the time on this site. Is anyone scarred that Big Mexican Brother will come down on us and throw us out of the country? 

It’s also interesting that other than the guy who wrote the article both the "US Investigator" and the "Mexican state officials" remain unnamed. 

Articles like this have been written about anything and everything. They are written by people who have an agenda and want to use it to try to prove something. (I know everyone will get tired of hearing me say so but this is a classic example of Yellow Press)


----------



## FHBOY

*"Eyebrow Popping"*

LadyGeorge:
This is off the topic of the article, but we too have been the subject of eyebrow popping. "They're all dope dealers" "They don't have decent (fill in the blank: housing, health care, water, hotels, education...) there" "it's always hot [rainy; filled with tourists; not enough people speak English]"

What floors most of the people I speak with, including my mother-in-law, colleagues at work and even our close friends is when we talk about where we are moving to. They are surprised that GDL has 8.3 million people, a subway, opera company, theater, clubs, fine restaurants and one of the most modern upscale shopping malls I've ever been to. When I tell them about Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Mickey D's and that not all Mexicans live in adobe shacks and have burros tied outside their doors, they tend to start to listen.

Then when they are told about the healthcare systems, the fact that, where we are moving, I don't have central heat or A/C because I don't need it, that my retirement dollars will go further...all of a sudden, Mexico sounds like a great place. For our friends into history and archeology, I mention the years we are going to spend visiting the home of civilizations of this continent before the invasion of the Europeans.

As a kicker, I show them the pictures of the house we want to buy, then it's price, then run the YouTube videos of Ajijic/Chapala/GDL.

You see, none of this is what they expect. They expect the violence, they expect the tourist rip-offs, they expect a bunch of fat, drunk, uneducated and uncultured people, living in adobe houses with goats in their backyards because that is all Americans (I am generalizing) know. We in the US are not taught about Mexico, other than the Alamo, the Gadsden Purchase and...well I am pontificating. 

They know pictures of Poncho Villa, Zapata, Baba Louie, and the Cheech Marin caricature, "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" or Zorro, they never see real Mexicans. I'll admit, till I visited, I was a backward as they were, but it is only because their lens is so small (and maybe their lives and sense of adventure).

In the end, the only opinion that counts is yours, and if you are convinced that this is the life you want, like us, your real friends and relatives will end their conversations by saying: "Do you have an extra bedroom?"

Enjoy the adventure - there is so much more we are looking forward to in Mexico, and and a lot less that we fear about the adventure.


----------



## RVGRINGO

When you see those eyebrows go up, send those people to where a picture speaks more than a thousand words:

fotos de guadalajara jalisco - Buscar con Google
or
fotos de guadalajara jalisco - Buscar con Google
or
fotos de mexico michoacan - Buscar con Google

The list could go on and on .................


----------



## GRINGOMAC

When I read Mexico Babe's first post, I got the impression she was scared witless! Much like a deer in the headlights, which way to jump look..

Perhaps she and her husbunny have recently put a bundle down on a lovely home away from home and having visited the area had come to the observation and rightly so, that it was a safe haven for them. Perhaps they have discussed with other family members the real dangers of Mexico are on the border and Mexico city and in the minds of the newspapermen who perpetuate the rumermongering for improved sales and not in their chosen hot spot.

I really like Mexico and will be there again in a few months. I have been fortunate to have lived in a few different countries in my life time and I have enjoyed the hospitality of many different creeds, nationalities and genders. There is a peace and harmony there that seems to de-stress even the most stressed folk.

When we first visited Mexico a few years ago, seeing soldiers and armed police on the highway to Chichen Itza was a concern. My wife being from 'The wee North' had some misgivings as she lived through the havoc of civil war and bombings, strip searches, in-discriminative army and police searches, gunfire and so on and was not that enthused about that part of our little trip. 
The guides on the buses are perhaps used to it but seemed to use it to perpetuate the fear that many on the bus felt. We passed through a small town with an old Franciscan Church near the ruins but were not allowed to visit.

Much of today's news is unworthy of being called news! So much of it is regurgitated rubbish, rehashed and dressed in different verbiage and republished. Much of it is designed to incite fear and that leads to mistrust


----------



## surfrider

Well I am still moving to the area. That did not occur because it is MEXICO. It occurred because some punks were trying like crazy to do something that was against the law.
You can not allow yourself to be fearful of every type of disaster that can happen, by nature or man. 
This could have happpened to you if you lifed in Alabama on 28 Apr 2011 – The majority of the deaths reported so far have been in Alabama, where at least 195 people were killed. Mississippi recorded 32 fatalities, ...
If it is time to leave here, it really does not matter where you live. It is just not our place as humans to be able to control all the ways that a person could have their live end. All the "could happen" events in life just are not real inless they develop into "this happened to me". Then for you it is real. Takes too much time to worry about the "could happen to me" things.


----------



## FHBOY

surfrider said:


> Well I am still moving to the area..."could happen to me" things.


I think that sums it up - risk needs to be taken into account but happenstance is a "known unknown" (thank you Dick Cheney). To be absolutely safe you need to lock yourself in a well stocked closet...and that is not a way to live.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Here we go again!
There were some bad guys in pick-ups with weapons. They were being pursued by police and other authorities on the highway, many miles west of Chapala. Upon arrival in Chapala, they encountered the hard left turn, necessary to go north on the highway toward Guadalajara. One pick-up crashed into the restaurant on the corner, slowing the others. Police caught them and finished off a few of them. Another died in, or on the way to hospital. End of story ..... a long time ago. No big deal. It was late at night & we were in bed, but heard the gunfire & the grenade that one of the bad guys failed to get out of the pick-up window. He and his partner are dead. That's OK with us.


----------



## surfrider

Could not agree with you more. Bad boys whaj gone do - shoot them down and and live your life.


----------



## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> Could not agree with you more. Bad boys whaj gone do - shoot them down and and live your life.


While I agree there seems to be some poetic justice to a "bad guy" dying as a result of his own grenade, I cannot really subscribe to the shoot em and leave em theory. Whatever happened to the idea of a criminal justice system, and innocent until proven guilty. Summary justice dealt out western style sounds good until someone makes a mistake and an innocent person is on the receiving end. In the heat of the moment it is often not clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.


----------



## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> While I agree there seems to be some poetic justice to a "bad guy" dying as a result of his own grenade, I cannot really subscribe to the shoot em and leave em theory. Whatever happened to the idea of a criminal justice system, and innocent until proved guilty. Summary justice dealt out western style sounds good until someone makes a mistake and an innocent person is on the receiving end. In the heat of the moment it is often not clear who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.




That statement was not in a literal sense and should not have been written so bluntly. I should have been slower in my witting. 

Of course I believe in the Innocent until proved guilty, however I do question quite of bit of the reality behind innocent until proved guilty. I use to believe that, but I know too many cops and too many district attorneys and I question that reality today. I have been involved with Senators and county councilman, mayors in making different laws. I have always observed that money and power (who you know) wins out too many times. We would have guaranteed money for this cause and the next day in the senate, the money was just redirected to the football team at some university. too many cases where money purchased freedom with in the court system 

I have personally been in courts of law as an advocate for a persons rights and innocents was not even in the equation. the theroy of if there is smoke then there is fire was usually how the cops look at it. Actually today, I am not sure I trust the judicial system to function as I was educated to think it did. 

Of course that does not mean that we take the law into our own hands, but I think that unless I had a great deal of money - I never want to get in front of a judge.

I would love to really believe in the "happy days" t.v.reality, but with my business, I just saw too much and heard too much. Yes with our government and our judicial system I am jaded. People reading this should realize that is the case and not really change any of their beliefs in those two systems because of what I have experienced or said. These are my own views and not facts.eace:


----------



## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> That statement was not in a literal sense and should not have been written so bluntly. I should have been slower in my witting.
> 
> Of course I believe in the Innocent until proved guilty, however I do question quite of bit of the reality behind innocent until proved guilty. I use to believe that, but I know too many cops and too many district attorneys and I question that reality today. ...


I agree the system is far from perfect, but until we have something better to replace it with, I don't see that we have any other options.


----------



## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> I agree the system is far from perfect, but until we have something better to replace it with, I don't see that we have any other options.


I tried for some 40 some years to change the system in one area only and I was involved in (P.L. law) the writing of three different laws that did change the system for the better. Now those laws have been rewritten (all except one and they are working on that one as of last year) or done away with. The system just went back 40 some years to the past within a few years.

You either have to work at the system from within and be able to keep your integrity, or it takes over and you can never turn your head and look the other way or else someone writes an addendum to the law and it no longer is the law that was in place.


Well aren't you all sorry that this just happens to be my soap box area. I could go on and on with the changes that have taken place sociologically but I will end this for the sake of your sanity. three Cher's:cheer2::cheer2::clap2: bless you all for putting up with me...


----------



## pappabee

Please remember that here in Mexico we are governed by a form of the Napoleonic Code which says that you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

It was explained to me that you take everyone at the scene and throw them into jail, then you remove each one that is proven innocent. The one or ones left are guilty.

Remember the old lady that hit her friend with a car and had to spend a day or so in jail until everything got settled. It may be a shame but it's the law.


----------



## FHBOY

surfrider said:


> I tried for some 40 some years ... three Cher's:cheer2::cheer2::clap2: bless you all for putting up with me...


Can I get the 3 Chers? Please? Please?

In the 60's and 70's a lot of us tried to change things. How much stays changed, well that will be for history to judge.


----------



## RVGRINGO

"Newbies" are reminded that Mexico's system is still 'guilty until you prove yourself innocent' and there are no courtrooms. You don't 'go before a judge', but hire attorneys to send 'papers' to the judges and/or negotiate with other attorneys while you stay in prison, trying to figure out how to get more money, and more money, and more money ........... When the money runs out, you may be forgotten or found either guilty or innocent and deported.


----------

