# 3 Month rule.



## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

I've searched the forum and keep coming across the consecutive 3 month rule that decides whether there is a need to register for Residency or not but I can't decide what exactly consecutive means. After all a couple of days spent in Portugal before the 3 months are up makes it technically non-consecutive but to my mind that is a pretty flimsy argument.

Is there an accurate description that determines what is meant by consecutive?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

DonMarco said:


> I've searched the forum and keep coming across the consecutive 3 month rule that decides whether there is a need to register for Residency or not but I can't decide what exactly consecutive means. After all a couple of days spent in Portugal before the 3 months are up makes it technically non-consecutive but to my mind that is a pretty flimsy argument.
> 
> Is there an accurate description that determines what is meant by consecutive?


yep - 90 days / 3 months consecutively can indeed be broken & the clock reset by a short trip out of Spain. For EU citizens anyway. Consecutive - without a break - so if you break it...... it really is that simple (daft?) 

Non EU can only stay 90 / 180 cumulatively


----------



## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> Non EU can only stay 90 / 180 cumulatively


I think Switzerland, even though is not an EU member, is treated like an EU country in that respect.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

DonMarco said:


> I think Switzerland, even though is not an EU member, is treated like an EU country in that respect.


Yes Switzerlad has a special 'one off' agreement. 

The 90 day/3 month rule also applies to Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway as members of the EEA, although not EU members


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Official figures reckon that there are around 310,000 Brits living in Spain. However, is estimated that the real figure may be more than double that. There is a view amongst some immigrants from the UK that obtaining Spanish Residency and registering as a Spanish Tax Resident, is somehow optional...a nice to have rather than a MUST HAVE. Indeed there are some who delight in "flying under the radar", and will often tell others not to bother.

In fairness, the Spanish authorities have been lax in enforcing the regulations, which has encouraged some to avoid their responsibilities. However come March 2019, we may be looking at a completely different set of circumstances. It makes sense to believe, that those who have done the right thing, have the correct paperwork will be in a far better position than those, who in essence, live here illegally.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

DonMarco said:


> I've searched the forum and keep coming across the consecutive 3 month rule that decides whether there is a need to register for Residency or not but I can't decide what exactly consecutive means. After all a couple of days spent in Portugal before the 3 months are up makes it technically non-consecutive but to my mind that is a pretty flimsy argument.
> 
> Is there an accurate description that determines what is meant by consecutive?



Don't forget that even if you 'reset the clock as regards the 90 day rule, you must still remain under the 183 days (in total in any one calendar year) or you risk being a tax resident.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Blanco53 said:


> Official figures reckon that there are around 310,000 Brits living in Spain. However, is estimated that the real figure may be more than double that. There is a view amongst some immigrants from the UK that obtaining Spanish Residency and registering as a Spanish Tax Resident, is somehow optional...a nice to have rather than a MUST HAVE. Indeed there are some who delight in "flying under the radar", and will often tell others not to bother.
> 
> In fairness, the Spanish authorities have been lax in enforcing the regulations, which has encouraged some to avoid their responsibilities. However come March 2019, we may be looking at a completely different set of circumstances. It makes sense to believe, that those who have done the right thing, have the correct paperwork will be in a far better position than those, who in essence, live here illegally.


Indeed, the three-month rule (which is not a law as such, and not enforceable) assumes people who have been here that long do actually want to live here permamently. It's purpose is to get you to declare that you are self-sufficient and won't be a burden on the state. 

There are lots of exceptions - students, people working on contracts, people who are immobilised through illness, relatives of any of these. People who come for extended holidays in Spain but have their primary residence in another EU country are also exempt.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> Indeed, the three-month rule (which is not a law as such, and not enforceable) assumes people who have been here that long do actually want to live here permamently. It's purpose is to get you to declare that you are self-sufficient and won't be a burden on the state.
> 
> There are lots of exceptions - students, people working on contracts, people who are immobilised through illness, relatives of any of these. People who come for extended holidays in Spain but have their primary residence in another EU country are also exempt.


I really do feel that the above comments should be treated with a large pinch of salt.

The comment "....which is not a law as such, and not enforceable" is totally wrong. Royal Decree 240/07 is quite unequivocal and requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months should register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros in their province of residence or at designated Police stations.

As I stated before, the Spanish authorities have been lax in enforcing the regulations, but this does not excuse the British immigrant from ignoring their responsibilities. 

My advice is to ignore "Alcalaina"'s comments and get your paperwork up straight, as March 2019 will be here before you know it!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Here is a lot information told in a simple, straight forward way
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Blanco53 said:


> I really do feel that the above comments should be treated with a large pinch of salt.
> 
> The comment "....which is not a law as such, and not enforceable" is totally wrong. Royal Decree 240/07 is quite unequivocal and requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months should register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros in their province of residence or at designated Police stations.
> 
> ...


I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't do it, if you are planning to become genuinely resident. However there are people who want to spend part of the year (more than 90 days at a stretch) in their holiday homes and aren't sure whether they should register and deregister each time. I found an extract from a government web page confirming that this was not necessary, and posted it on another thread, but I can't remember where.

Royal Decree 240/07 is simply Spain's transposition of the EU Freedom of Movement requirements into Spanish law. Do you have a link to any details of penalties for non-compliance?


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't do it, if you are planning to become genuinely resident. However there are people who want to spend part of the year (more than 90 days at a stretch) in their holiday homes and aren't sure whether they should register and deregister each time. I found an extract from a government web page confirming that this was not necessary, and posted it on another thread, but I can't remember where.
> 
> Royal Decree 240/07 is simply Spain's transposition of the EU Freedom of Movement requirements into Spanish law. Do you have a link to any details of penalties for non-compliance?


If you want to live in Spain for more than 3 months then as an EU resident you are required to register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros. THAT IS THE LAW. 

As has already been pointed out, this position is confirmed by HM Government...link https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain. 

if someone owns a holiday home and wants to stay for more than 3 months then they need to register as above. If they plan to return why on earth would they want to de-register?


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't do it, if you are planning to become genuinely resident. However there are people who want to spend part of the year (more than 90 days at a stretch) in their holiday homes and aren't sure whether they should register and deregister each time. I found an extract from a government web page confirming that this was not necessary, and posted it on another thread, but I can't remember where.
> 
> Royal Decree 240/07 is simply Spain's transposition of the EU Freedom of Movement requirements into Spanish law. Do you have a link to any details of penalties for non-compliance?


http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:ENDF

scroll down to 9 L 158/80 & 158/81 10,11,12


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:ENDF
> 
> scroll down to 9 L 158/80 & 158/81 10,11,12


Thanks Gus. This confirms that Spain has exercised its right under EU freedom of movement regulations to require people to register after three months. It isn't a criminal offence _not_ to register, and there are no fines involved for non-compliance. But if you can't support yourself financially and become a "burden on the state" (i.e. by claiming benefits) you may, as a last resort, be expelled from the country.



> As long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State they should not be expelled. Therefore, an expulsion measure should not be the automatic consequence of recourse to the social assistance system. The host Member State should examine whether it is a case of temporary difficulties and take into account the duration of residence, the personal circumstances and the amount of aid granted in order to consider whether the beneficiary has become an unreasonable burden on its social assistance system and to proceed to his expulsion. In no case should an expulsion measure be adopted against workers, self-employed persons or job-seekers as defined by the Court of Justice save on grounds of public policy or public security.


Just to reiterate, _I'm not suggesting that anyone planning to live in Spain should avoid registering_. Just don't lose any sleep if you stay a few days over the 90 day limit!


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> Just to reiterate, _I'm not suggesting that anyone planning to live in Spain should avoid registering_. Just don't lose any sleep if you stay a few days over the 90 day limit!


Indeed don't lose any sleep, but to avoid any unnecessary worry just follow the rules. It so easy for some folk to stay "a few days over" and then that becomes "a few weeks and months" and that's when the problems start.

Also, remember if you stay in Spain for 183 days in a year you also become tax resident and are required to submit a tax return to the Hacienda.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Blanco53 said:


> If you want to live in Spain for more than 3 months then as an EU resident you are required to register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros. THAT IS THE LAW.
> 
> As has already been pointed out, this position is confirmed by HM Government...link https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain.
> 
> if someone owns a holiday home and wants to stay for more than 3 months then they need to register as above. If they plan to return why on earth would they want to de-register?


Because they aren't _living_ in Spain.
You can't be resident in 2 places at the same time.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Because they aren't _living_ in Spain.
> You can't be resident in 2 places at the same time.


Slight correction required 

You can't be a "tax resident" in two places at once.

I have previously "come clean" on here about my situation, but I will repeat it here again;

We had been in Spain, and registered on the list of EU citizens since 2004, then we went to live abroad in 2013.
We went to extranjeria to ask what we should do, i.e. should we de-register? We were told that no, that would be a crazy idea!
In fact, we had never obtained "permanent" status on our certificates, but the permanent certs were issued there and then with the advice from the officer being that now we didn't have to worry about it on our return to Spain....

So that's how we did it. We now know that was technically wrong, but it is what we were recommended by the authorities.

Of course, in the new light of Brexit, Spain will probably not recognise our "permanent" status because we left for 3 years, and only returned in 2016. So despite having a certificate which states that we have been permanent residents since 2004 it is a big fat porky lie!!!

We will see what implications this brings in due course....


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Because they aren't _living_ in Spain.
> You can't be resident in 2 places at the same time.




Of course, you can't reside in two places at the same time. However, if you have your Certificado de residencia you can return to Spain safe in the knowledge you can legally stay for more than 3 months. There is absolutely no need to de-register each time you leave the country.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Blanco53 said:


> There is absolutely no need to de-register each time you leave the country.


This is only ture if you leave Spain for a short trip. If you leave Spain to reside elsewhere, you should de-register.

Here is a useful guide (see page 11, where it states " Si la persona deja de residir en España, deberá solicitar la baja del registro.")

http://www.formenteradelsegura.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/residencia_es.pdf


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Overandout said:


> This is only ture if you leave Spain for a short trip. If you leave Spain to reside elsewhere, you should de-register.
> 
> Here is a useful guide (see page 11, where it states " Si la persona deja de residir en España, deberá solicitar la baja del registro.")
> 
> http://www.formenteradelsegura.es/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/residencia_es.pdf


The expression: "Si la persona deja de residir en España, deberá solicitar la baja del registro." is suitably vague. For most UK Expats, who return to the UK, DO NOT DE-REGISTER, particularly if you own a property and will return. 

In essence, this is only going to affect only a relatively few people, ie those who intend to live in Spain for 3 months plus, but do not live in Spain for more than 183 days a year, in which case a whole new set of rules apply.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Blanco53 said:


> The expression: "Si la persona deja de residir en España, deberá solicitar la baja del registro." is suitably vague. For most UK Expats, who return to the UK, DO NOT DE-REGISTER, particularly if you own a property and will return.
> 
> In essence, this is only going to affect only a relatively few people, ie those who intend to live in Spain for 3 months plus, but do not live in Spain for more than 183 days a year, in which case a whole new set of rules apply.


I don't think it's vague at all. 

And just because many don't de-register, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> I don't think it's vague at all.
> 
> And just because many don't de-register, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't.



The fact that the comments come with no time frame, does make them VERY VAGUE.

Does taking a one week holiday in France, mean that the person has stopped residing in Spain?

Or perhaps it's a two weeks skiing trip to Val d'Isère?

How about 6 weeks visiting friends in California?

Or maybe it's going to see your grandchildren for 3 months in Australia?

Then again, what about a 125 day World Cruise.....does this mean that the person has stopped residing in Spain?

Given each of these scenarios which (or all) events would prompt the need to de-register? I'm really intrigued.

At least the law regarding when someone needs to register (and after all that is the subject of this thread) is not vague and totally UNAMBIGUOUS!!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

OK, as a rule of thumb - would you change the address on your passport if you went on a long cruise? Or if you went to the UK for a couple of months, say to look after a sick relative? 

Of course not. You know where your permanent residence is. If it's in Spain, you need to be registered as a resident. 

Think about the _principle_ of the 90 day rule, rather than trying to pin down the detail. It was set up to stop Eastern Europeans coming and claiming benefits. Not to stop wealthy Brits and Danes spending their winters in the sun.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> OK, as a rule of thumb - would you change the address on your passport if you went on a long cruise? Or if you went to the UK for a couple of months, say to look after a sick relative?
> 
> Of course not. You know where your permanent residence is. If it's in Spain, you need to be registered as a resident.
> 
> Think about the _principle_ of the 90 day rule, rather than trying to pin down the detail. It was set up to stop Eastern Europeans coming and claiming benefits. Not to stop wealthy Brits and Danes spending their winters in the sun.


The difference is clear. The law states unequivocally that ALL EU citizens planning to live in Spain for more than 3 months MUST register at the Oficina de Extranjeros. No doubt there.

Whereas when to deregister is vague and ambiguous judging by the comments of other contributors.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have now read all of the Real Decreto.. and I am very tired!!

Interestingly, it DOES NOT SAY that anyone leaving Spain must "deregister", despite the guide I posted earlier.

It states (Article 14) that the validity of the certificate is dependent on the conditions for its issuance being maintained.

The same article also says that if the holder of a certificate changes any of the factors which gave the right to the certificate change, the holder must "inform" extranjería.

Logically, this implies that they would request that you return the certificate if you leave, but this is just implied, and as I have explained, I did exactly what the law requires of me, but they did not ask me to return the certificate and deregister, in fact thay gave me permanent status instead!!! :crazy:


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I have now read all of the Real Decreto.. and I am very tired!!
> 
> Interestingly, it DOES NOT SAY that anyone leaving Spain must "deregister", despite the guide I posted earlier.
> 
> ...


Spanish rules and regulations are notoriously vague. I was once told (by the son of a Guardia Civil) that they were deliberately non-specific so the GC could use their discretion over who they chose to arrest during the dictatorship. Of course, I've no idea the extent to which that's true today, but there is still an awful lot of ambiguity.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Overandout said:


> I have now read all of the Real Decreto.. and I am very tired!!
> 
> Interestingly, it DOES NOT SAY that anyone leaving Spain must "deregister", despite the guide I posted earlier.
> 
> ...



Many thanks for your research.....much appreciated.


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I looked into this on a practical level as I intended to have 4 month breaks here 

Bottom line is I would virtually need to register and deregister at the same time as it was going to take 4/5 weeks to take me off the system which I was effectively only signing onto for a month in the first place. Add to that there is no locally accepted healthcare for periods of less than 12 months-so although my long stay trav ins would cover my 4 month stay, it is not acceptable for residency 

Gave up trying to sort it and now intend to fly back home for a few days before I reach the 90'days, hence restarting the clock

Even more mportant to keep an eye on the cumulative total making sure the 183 is not exceeded for tax purposes


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Blanco53 said:


> Of course, you can't reside in two places at the same time. However, if you have your Certificado de residencia you can return to Spain safe in the knowledge you can legally stay for more than 3 months. There is absolutely no need to de-register each time you leave the country.


There is ,as if you actually live in another EU state & come to Spain for over the 90 days & register , by not de-registering you have now made yourself a non-resident in your home country, with all the problems that can entail, if it is found out. Unfortuantely when these 'rules' were drafted no one took any of this in to account of people moving from country to country on a regular basis.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

gus-lopez said:


> There is ,as if you actually live in another EU state & come to Spain for over the 90 days & register , by not de-registering you have now made yourself a non-resident in your home country, with all the problems that can entail, if it is found out. Unfortuantely when these 'rules' were drafted no one took any of this in to account of people moving from country to country on a regular basis.


My Certificado de residencia provides me with the option to live in Spain for 3 months or more. It does not mean that I am non-resident in the UK. For a number of years, I lived in Spain for about five months a year. the rest in the UK. Absolutely no problem and I wasn't regarded in the UK as a non-resident!!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The 183 day "rule" is not rigid. If your centre of economic interest is deemed to be in Spain than you may well be considered to be a tax resident from day 1. 

Yes, you can be considered to be tax resident in more than one country because of the differences in tax years. For example you live in Spain from 1st January to 31st August - you have lived in Spain for more than 183 days - you are a tax resident in Spain. You then move to the UK and stay there until the end of March, you will have been living in the UK for more than 183 days in the UK tax year so you are tax resident in both countries between 6th April and the 31st December in the first year.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

baldilocks said:


> The 183 day "rule" is not rigid. If your centre of economic interest is deemed to be in Spain than you may well be considered to be a tax resident from day 1.
> 
> Yes, you can be considered to be tax resident in more than one country because of the differences in tax years. For example you live in Spain from 1st January to 31st August - you have lived in Spain for more than 183 days - you are a tax resident in Spain. You then move to the UK and stay there until the end of March, you will have been living in the UK for more than 183 days in the UK tax year so you are tax resident in both countries between 6th April and the 31st December in the first year.


What has a Certificado de residencia got to with tax residence? 
Answer: NOTHING!!!!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Blanco53 said:


> What has a Certificado de residencia got to with tax residence?
> Answer: NOTHING!!!!


I didn't say it had but others have raised the point about tax residency so I was just clarifying a couple of points!


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

baldilocks said:


> I didn't say it had but others have raised the point about tax residency so I was just clarifying a couple of points!


Posting it on a thread about residency is, in my opinion, a little confusing.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Blanco53 said:


> Indeed don't lose any sleep, but to avoid any unnecessary worry just follow the rules. It so easy for some folk to stay "a few days over" and then that becomes "a few weeks and months" and that's when the problems start.
> 
> Also, remember if you stay in Spain for 183 days in a year you also become tax resident and are required to submit a tax return to the Hacienda.





Blanco53 said:


> Posting it on a thread about residency is, in my opinion, a little confusing.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Blanco53 said:


> What has a Certificado de residencia got to with tax residence?
> Answer: NOTHING!!!!





baldilocks said:


> I didn't say it had but others have raised the point about tax residency so I was just clarifying a couple of points!





Blanco53 said:


> Posting it on a thread about residency is, in my opinion, a little confusing.





Blanco53 said:


> Indeed don't lose any sleep, but to avoid any unnecessary worry just follow the rules. It so easy for some folk to stay "a few days over" and then that becomes "a few weeks and months" and that's when the problems start.
> 
> Also, remember if you stay in Spain for 183 days in a year you also become tax resident and are required to submit a tax return to the Hacienda.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Megsmum said:


>


Thank you Megsmum, "Hoist by one's own petard" comes to mind.


----------



## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Just because I posted like a prat.......does that excuse others?


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> I didn't say it had but others have raised the point about tax residency so I was just clarifying a couple of points!


Mr B Aldi Locks was correct in mentioning tax status rules both because I brought it into the thread in my own hands on experience contribution but also because it's by far the most important consideration when it comes to long stays, over stays, pushing beyond the 90 day rule etc

Yes you might bluff your way re the 90 day res register malarkey BUT mess about with the tax rules and you will be in serious bother, especially as many who are wanting to do extended stays way beyond normal hols have property here-well mess with the tax rules and you may well no longer have property here


----------

