# Buying a Bar Costa Del Sol



## Pfavero

Hello to all,

I am new in this forum so please forgive me should I ask silly questions.

We are a married couple living in Italy and have decided to move to Costa Del Sol to buy a small bar and run it on our own.
I am amazed at the number of bars for sale ?? does this depend on global cris? or is it just a matter of competition.
The price range to buy a small bar of approx 30 mq is in the range of € 25.000,00 and this seems much lower than what it would cost to buy one on the coast in Italy. 
Does anyone have an idea of what kind of turnover these small bars are making?
If there someone who has taken the same decision?
All the help and information you can all give me will help us.
Thank you

Paola and Maurizio


----------



## VFR

Pfavero said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am new in this forum so please forgive me should I ask silly questions.
> 
> We are a married couple living in Italy and have decided to move to Costa Del Sol to buy a small bar and run it on our own.
> I am amazed at the number of bars for sale ?? does this depend on global cris? or is it just a matter of competition.
> The price range to buy a small bar of approx 30 mq is in the range of € 25.000,00 and this seems much lower than what it would cost to buy one on the coast in Italy.
> Does anyone have an idea of what kind of turnover these small bars are making?
> If there someone who has taken the same decision?
> All the help and information you can all give me will help us.
> Thank you
> 
> Paola and Maurizio


Hello Paola & welcome.
The general advice is to give me the money as you you are far more likely to get something back than putting any of your hard earned money into a bar on the CDS.

My apologies for seeming a tad negative.


----------



## jojo

Pfavero said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am new in this forum so please forgive me should I ask silly questions.
> 
> We are a married couple living in Italy and have decided to move to Costa Del Sol to buy a small bar and run it on our own.
> I am amazed at the number of bars for sale ?? does this depend on global cris? or is it just a matter of competition.
> The price range to buy a small bar of approx 30 mq is in the range of € 25.000,00 and this seems much lower than what it would cost to buy one on the coast in Italy.
> Does anyone have an idea of what kind of turnover these small bars are making?
> If there someone who has taken the same decision?
> All the help and information you can all give me will help us.
> Thank you
> 
> Paola and Maurizio


There are so many bars for sale cos people are going bust. The turnover in most of the small bars isnt enough to pay even the overheads, let alone a wage. We were talking about this very subject tonight cos I was with a lady who luckily managed to sell her bar three years ago at a loss, but she was grateful that she sold it at all! Her words were "dont do it, its a mugs game!" This is a lady who apparently ran a very successful bar in the Canary Islands for many years, before having the hairbrain scheme of moving to the mainland - a decision she's lived to regret I think!!!


jo xxx


----------



## littleredrooster

Pfavero said:


> If there someone who has taken the same decision?
> Paola and Maurizio


Many,many thousands the vast majority of whom have bitterly regretted it.

To be fair there are also success stories, but they are mostly very few and far between.
There is a huge amount of costly red tape to negotiate before you can even begin, after which it is lots of hard work, long hours, patience and dedication, usually for very little reward or more likely than not hefty losses.

Welcome aboard anyway and the best of luck with whatever you decide.

Personally I would rather spend the money on lottery tickets.
Probably more chance of success and more fun without the never ending work and hassle.
Sorry to sound like a damp squib, but best you're aware of the risks and pitfalls rather than jump in the deep end with your eyes closed.
Expect you'll get plenty more similar advice, but most of it is well meant.


----------



## xabiaxica

I'm not on the cds but I think every bar I know is for sale!!

if not actively 'on the market' then the owners would certainly entertaina sensible offer

I know a Valencian born & bred family here who had tons & tons of experience who opened a bar a couple of years ago - shut it at the end of the 1st summer season before they lost everything - as it was they pretty much broke even - but lost a whole summer really cos they were working 18 hours a day!


----------



## Alcalaina

I wish someone would open a pasteleria/heladeria (cakes and ice cream) in my town. Or a lounge bar with comfy seats, soft music and no TV.

It is a typical Spanish town (away from the coast) and we have plenty of bars but they are all pretty spartan and very noisy.

A good business opportunity for someone!


----------



## DunWorkin

Our local bar is for sale but it shows what a difference in price there is for a successful bar with virtually no competition. It is on the market for €220,000.

If I was 30 years younger and looking for a business I would certainly consider it. Most bars, of course, do have competition and are struggling.


----------



## Stravinsky

DunWorkin said:


> If I was 30 years younger and looking for a business I would certainly consider it. Most bars, of course, do have competition and are struggling.


No you wouldn't ...... you're dun working


----------



## xabiaxica

DunWorkin said:


> Our local bar is for sale but it shows what a difference in price there is for a successful bar with virtually no competition. It is on the market for €220,000.
> 
> If I was 30 years younger and looking for a business I would certainly consider it. Most bars, of course, do have competition and are struggling.


we have a bar here which is on its 3rd owners since we've been in spain - the first two didn't make a go of it - this owner has turned it right around - it's a really busy, popular family bar - lots of different entertainment going on all the time

but they have had enough - the long long hours have taken their toll - no point having a successful business if you have no life


----------



## Stravinsky

xabiachica said:


> no point having a successful business if you have no life


Oh sod it! Thats where I went wrong then! :juggle:


----------



## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> Oh sod it! Thats where I went wrong then! :juggle:


but you retired early - which is what they plan to do 

thing is, so many posters are thinking of 'retiring to spain to run a bar' - & as you know - that's no retirement!!


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> I wish someone would open a pasteleria/heladeria (cakes and ice cream) in my town. Or a lounge bar with comfy seats, soft music and no TV.
> 
> It is a typical Spanish town (away from the coast) and we have plenty of bars but they are all pretty spartan and very noisy.
> 
> A good business opportunity for someone!


Perhaps I should start a chain...

The typical steel countered/tapa cabinet/litter on the floor/full of men/very noisy type of Spanish bar is all very well but there is definitely a place for something a little more sophisticated just as you describe.


----------



## Stravinsky

jimenato said:


> Perhaps I should start a chain...
> 
> The typical steel countered/tapa cabinet/litter on the floor/full of men/very noisy type of Spanish bar is all very well but there is definitely a place for something a little more sophisticated just as you describe.


Youre both dead right. I just returned from Italy and we remarked when there that there were lots of cake and bread shops that had lots of choice, whereas here it seems always to be so limited


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Perhaps I should start a chain...
> 
> The typical steel countered/tapa cabinet/litter on the floor/full of men/very noisy type of Spanish bar is all very well but there is definitely a place for something a little more sophisticated just as you describe.


Oh please, yes!  Bar Lascuta - I can see it now.

Have you been to La Vista in Medina Sidonia? It has a terrace bar with a fabulous view, comfy armchairs and sofas with white cushions, and after you've watched the sunset they come round with Snuggie blankets in case you are feeling chilly.

Guess what - the owners are British.


----------



## DunWorkin

I would love to find a nice bar here without TV or loud music. 

The English bars also always seem to have Bingo, Quiz night or English football matches.

The problem is without attractions like these would a bar attract the customers?

The other business I think is needed where we live is a daily delivery van with bread and basic groceries. There are quite a lot of houses here but our nearest shop is 7km away. My father used to live in France and every day there was a grocery van - they seemed to do a very good trade - also not much overheads.


----------



## MaidenScotland

DunWorkin said:


> I would love to find a nice bar here without TV or loud music.
> 
> The English bars also always seem to have Bingo, Quiz night or English football matches.
> 
> The problem is without attractions like these would a bar attract the customers?
> 
> The other business I think is needed where we live is a daily delivery van with bread and basic groceries. There are quite a lot of houses here but our nearest shop is 7km away. My father used to live in France and every day there was a grocery van - they seemed to do a very good trade - also not much overheads.




I hate the fact that you cannot get away from someone elses choice of music, I was in a bar the other evening and it seems they only have one CD.. Elton John is ok in small doses but to hear the c.d over and over is earache to me.
Got to say that Spain is not the only place, Egyptian shops are horrendous with their music blaring out and the same goes for the UK.


----------



## Alcalaina

DunWorkin said:


> I would love to find a nice bar here without TV or loud music.
> 
> The English bars also always seem to have Bingo, Quiz night or English football matches.
> 
> The problem is without attractions like these would a bar attract the customers?


I think they would - there is always a "silent minority" who would rather stay at home rather than go to the typical noisy bars, but would go to somewhere comfortable where you can hear yourself speak. Jimenato's bar is a good example (they do have a quiz night, but it is very civilised!)


----------



## thrax

There are a few such bars and restaurants opened in Nerja recently and they are all doing really wello, particularly now when tourist numbers are higher than they have been for the past 15 years, apparently. I mentioned in another post a while ago that the only bars/pubs that aren't doing well are a few English owned establishments where the food is dreadful, the price of beer rediculous and the welcome non-existent.


----------



## Pfavero

Fantastic, something starts looking positive.
All Ihave been getting since I joined the forum was bad bad news.
Thanks


----------



## jojo

Pfavero said:


> Fantastic, something starts looking positive.
> All Ihave been getting since I joined the forum was bad bad news.
> Thanks



Spain is in crisis, that is known! Buying bars at the moment isnt an optimistic proposition - Fact! 

But I always advise people to come and look, ask around and see if you can do it successfully. 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pfavero

I agree, infact this is what we will be doing in the next couple of weeks.
Ideas ??????
What about Italian style lounge bar, will it work???


----------



## jojo

Pfavero said:


> I agree, infact this is what we will be doing in the next couple of weeks.
> Ideas ??????
> What about Italian style lounge bar, will it work???


 I dont know. The costas tend to be mainly cafe type places where you can get a drink and something to eat at reasonable prices, no real need for any style as such. So you could look at that one of two ways: either they're like that cos thats all thats wanted or that theres a gap in the market. I would guess its the former. But it depends on the area you choose. 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pfavero

Thanks Jo,
In your opinion what would be a good area?
Paola


----------



## jojo

Pfavero said:


> Thanks Jo,
> In your opinion what would be a good area?
> Paola


I'm not an expert. I guess if you're looking to open something classy then you need a classy area and that will cost. You need to speak to agents and find out where they would recommend, but dont pay them any money until you are sure. Things are bad in Spain and there are alot of desperate people 

Jo xxx


----------



## adelante

Pfavero said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am new in this forum so please forgive me should I ask silly questions.
> 
> We are a married couple living in Italy and have decided to move to Costa Del Sol to buy a small bar and run it on our own.
> I am amazed at the number of bars for sale ?? does this depend on global cris? or is it just a matter of competition.
> The price range to buy a small bar of approx 30 mq is in the range of € 25.000,00 and this seems much lower than what it would cost to buy one on the coast in Italy.
> Does anyone have an idea of what kind of turnover these small bars are making?
> If there someone who has taken the same decision?
> All the help and information you can all give me will help us.
> Thank you
> 
> Paola and Maurizio


Paola & Maurizio - ciao e benvenuti! 

Deve fare attenzione qua!

My advice to you would be to come here and scope it out in winter. Where are you thinking? It's a 25 minute drive from Marbella to Fuengirola, If you choose the correct spot you could do quite well. The wrong spot - it could be a disaster. So many options! 

Good luck, I am not at all involved in the bar industry, but willing to help if I can!


----------



## Guest

Bars and restaurants are failing at a great rate of knots. As with the UK, it is one of the business sectors with a very high failure rate. 

Unless you have great USP (unique selling point!), you may end up doing rather badly and losing a chunk of money.

I agree with some of the others here, that a classy, lounge-type place would probably do quite well, but it comes down to location, location and location. The sort of location you want would not be cheap, so you´re looking spending a fair bit of money before you´ve got the first customer through the door. Also, many areas are highly dependant upon the seasonal habits of touroids (tourists!) and many businesses simply shut down out of season. However, even if you´ve shut down, you´re still paying money for overheads, rent, social security etc.

Travel out to Spain, get a car and drive around the various areas and sample the bars that are there. Meet with local agents and visit some potential properties. Don´t spend any money, don´t sign any documents. Go home and then think about it a lot and examine all of the positives and negatives about what you saw. Investigate the negatives thoroughly or they might come back to bite you.

I genuinely wish you well, but I think the timing for this could be problematic, given the high rate of unemployment and all the other madness going on...


----------



## Pfavero

Yossa said:


> Bars and restaurants are failing at a great rate of knots. As with the UK, it is one of the business sectors with a very high failure rate.
> 
> Unless you have great USP (unique selling point!), you may end up doing rather badly and losing a chunk of money.
> 
> I agree with some of the others here, that a classy, lounge-type place would probably do quite well, but it comes down to location, location and location. The sort of location you want would not be cheap, so you´re looking spending a fair bit of money before you´ve got the first customer through the door. Also, many areas are highly dependant upon the seasonal habits of touroids (tourists!) and many businesses simply shut down out of season. However, even if you´ve shut down, you´re still paying money for overheads, rent, social security etc.
> 
> Travel out to Spain, get a car and drive around the various areas and sample the bars that are there. Meet with local agents and visit some potential properties. Don´t spend any money, don´t sign any documents. Go home and then think about it a lot and examine all of the positives and negatives about what you saw. Investigate the negatives thoroughly or they might come back to bite you.
> 
> I genuinely wish you well, but I think the timing for this could be problematic, given the high rate of unemployment and all the other madness going on...


Thank you for your precious note. This is what I am looking for.


----------



## Pfavero

A couple of days ago I spoke to an Italian Lady who has been living in Spain for the last 15 years, her opinion was the same, but at the time I thought she was just trying to make things look more difficult than what they are. NOW I UNDERSTAND.
Well where does one go to change life style and to live under better conditions, perhaps go back to my home country SOUTH AFRICA.


----------



## Pfavero

Grazie
Infact we will be over in Spain middle of September, to get a feel and see some places. I will see what happens and what I see and then I certainly need all your advice and know how about spain.
Thanks a ton
Paola and Maurizio


----------



## frazerherbert

*Buying a bar on the costa del sol*

If you are considering buying a bar in the Costa Del Sol you need to be realistic. I purchased a bar in October knowing full well that the season had ended. I personally would not buy a bar that has been closed as the signs are clearly evident it “didn’t work” (for what ever reason)....... For you to become successful you really need to purchase an established bar/restaurant with a good local trade as well as the tourist trade. The local trade will see you through the slower months but this will give you time to put your own mark on the premises. You will find there are many existing locals that will stay and there will be a few that will move on. To be fare the few that move on are just not your sort of people anyway and that’s why they go. (trust me ,your better off without them) I set up my own website to find the right bar for us and the previous owner contacted me to ask would I advertise their bar on my site. After visiting the bar on a number of occasions I decided the bar was right for me. A word of warning NEVER BELIEVE everything people tell you, people tell lies you know!! So to summaries there are plenty of opportunities here on the Costa Del Sol SNIP/


----------



## fastlos

Open up an authentic Mexjcan restaurant! That will work in Spain..


----------



## jojo

fastlos said:


> Open up an authentic Mexjcan restaurant! That will work in Spain..


 There used to be a good one in Plaza Mayor, Malaga - i dont know if its still there. 

However, to open an "Authentic" mexican restaurant, it really helps if you are an "authentic Mexican and are able to prepare, cook and present authentic Mexican dishes lol!!??

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

*


frazerherbert said:



If you are considering buying a bar in the Costa Del Sol you need to be realistic. I purchased a bar in October knowing full well that the season had ended. I personally would not buy a bar that has been closed as the signs are clearly evident it “didn’t work” (for what ever reason)....... For you to become successful you really need to purchase an established bar/restaurant with a good local trade as well as the tourist trade. The local trade will see you through the slower months but this will give you time to put your own mark on the premises. You will find there are many existing locals that will stay and there will be a few that will move on. To be fare the few that move on are just not your sort of people anyway and that’s why they go. (trust me ,your better off without them) I set up my own website to find the right bar for us and the previous owner contacted me to ask would I advertise their bar on my site. After visiting the bar on a number of occasions I decided the bar was right for me. A word of warning NEVER BELIEVE everything people tell you, people tell lies you know!! So to summaries there are plenty of opportunities here on the Costa Del Sol SNIP/

Click to expand...

*
I wish you well but you have been in this business for a mere two months?
Let us know how you have got on in twelve months. It will be interesting.

But it is simply not true that there are 'plenty' of business opportunities on the CdS. Of course there are a few, there always will be. But with unemployment rising in the Malaga Province to unprecedented levels and tourism overall not that great during the last couple of years, especially with the increase in some parts of the eastern CdS of all-inclusive package deals, this kind of optimism sadly has little basis in reality. Some restaurants/bars are keeping open because they can't afford to close....You know something is wrong when you go for a coffee and a croissant and the waiter tells you that yes, there's coffee, but the patisserie van didn't turn up...



*Open up an authentic Mexjcan restaurant! That will work in Spain..* 


Not round here it wouldn't. Why should a Mexican restaurant be more potentially profitable than a Polish, Russian, Dutch, German, Japanese, Indian, Chinese restaurant


----------



## fastlos

Oh, I can show them how!


----------



## mrypg9

fastlos said:


> Oh, I can show them how!



Then come and do it....

If talk and wishes could make people rich, a lot of people I know would be multi-millionaires!

If things were so easy there would be fewer desperate people here, workers and business owners both.

It is wrong to trivialise the situation with facile comments, imo.

Sorry to sound harsh but there are very many unemployed, homeless people in my area and too many wondering how long they will have jobs.

This is not some kind of 'expat fairyland', not any more and I doubt it ever will be again.


----------



## fastlos

Well that's what I do. I have helped start two successful ones so far! 
I personally run a BBQ, hot sauce, and spice company as well as a martial arts studio. 
If one is persistent, honest, and has a GOOD idea, anything is possible! 
Sure the economy is bad, but that can also bring opportunities as well. 
Good luck to all, and I'm here to help if I can!


----------



## fastlos

Mexican food is the fastest growing of all restaurants in all of Europe. Look up "the chipotle grill". These are now coming to Spain and these franchises will do very well here. 
Tex Mex is trending now. Look at the recent growth in just supermarket products and you will see. Four years ago all we had was old el paso. Now there are many, many Mexican style products here.


----------



## jojo

fastlos said:


> Mexican food is the fastest growing of all restaurants in all of Europe. Look up "the chipotle grill". These are now coming to Spain and these franchises will do very well here.
> Tex Mex is trending now. Look at the recent growth in just supermarket products and you will see. Four years ago all we had was old el paso. Now there are many, many Mexican style products here.


In the UK, the mexican idea is old news now. Its been done and, while its popular - as are most international restaurants and food stuff, its not a great new idea to jump on. I suspect its the same in Spain - with the added negative of the crisis - especially if you're a Brit with no experience in either mexican food or running and managing a restaurant/bar

Jo xxx


----------



## fastlos

And Mexican food is still growing in England! I am selling larger quantities of Mexican food products in England than last year!


----------



## jojo

fastlos said:


> And Mexican food is still growing in England! I am selling larger quantities of Mexican food products in England than last year!



Are you a British ex pat??? I'm not disagreeing with you - mexican food is one of many international dishes that is popular in the UK (I prefer indian myself lol). All I'm saying is that its not really a good idea to encourage or suggest that moving to spain, opening a mexican restaurant (I'm sure you have no hidden agenda !!!) and expect to make it - especially if you have no culinary skills, no knowledge of running a restaurant, arent Mexican and dont have a huge financial buffer - but just want to move to Spain cos you're fed up with the UK and want to relax in the sunshine!

Jo xxx


----------



## fastlos

Nope, Californian here. Not suggesting anyone move. Just stating that there are opportunities here if your smart about it. 
My customers in uk keep buying more Mexican ingredients, and Mexican restaurants are trending here now.. 
Just my .02 cents. 
Make it a great day!


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Are you a British ex pat??? I'm not disagreeing with you - mexican food is one of many international dishes that is popular in the UK (I prefer indian myself lol). All I'm saying is that its not really a good idea to encourage or suggest that moving to spain, opening a mexican restaurant (I'm sure you have no hidden agenda !!!) and expect to make it - especially if you have no culinary skills, no knowledge of running a restaurant, arent Mexican and dont have a huge financial buffer - but just want to move to Spain cos you're fed up with the UK and want to relax in the sunshine!
> 
> Jo xxx


Well said.

Of course it's not IMPOSSIBLE to open a business and also to find work. But to make it sound as if all that's needed is hard work, determination and a good business plan is misleading and slightly offensive to those with failed businesses and the unemployed. 

Were those very many people who have had to close their businesses lazy? Were they stupid or reckless? No doubt some were but most were victims of forces beyond their control. If national governments can't control their economies, how can a bar owner have any influence on the factors that curtail his profitability?

Same with the over five million unemployed. Are they all feckless and lazy?

Talk is very cheap. To encourage people with cheap talk is irresponsible. The last thing Spain needs is some would-be British entrepreneur - perhaps with no previous business experience and limited knowledge of Spain and the Spanish people - opening up yet another bar which is very unlikely to do what is most needed here...give employment to Spanish people.

Some - of course not all - immigrant businesses are akin to parasites: they feed off the Spanish 'body' but give little if anything back.

Come to Spain and invest in enterprises that provide employment, preferably skilled, preferably making things...yes. Come to open up yet another Brit bar....No way Jose!!!"


----------



## fastlos

Hmm.. I always seem to upset people here. I see people here starting businesses that IMO will fail. They usually do. But, I have seen/helped others that are doing great. 
Back in California we think "out of the box" quite a bit. 
One has to study and learn what will work here. Not just open another bar. 
There are opportunities here if your smart about it. Simple as that. And if I can do it, so can others! 
Make it a great day!


----------



## NickZ

The vast majority of small businesses fail. That includes well funded ones.

Places like bars are often like fashion. Hot one day out the next. So even if they are fine for years they can fail.

People also tend to underestimate the skills needed. They make coffee at home. They make dinner. They suddenly think they have the skills to cook for fifty people that all want something different. Forget all the other skills needed.

People underestimate the costs. Even if you lease everything it'll cost more then you think.

OTOH if you aren't willing to fail you should never start a business. Odds are you'll fail. Then try again. Fail again. Then maybe it'll work. Until something goes wrong.

I don't know if the OP meant an Italian bar (more of a cafe) or a pub. Either way the "smart" thing is to find a seasonal location. Running it the busy months with all the tourists. Then get a normal job for the rest of the year.


----------



## mrypg9

fastlos said:


> Hmm.. I always seem to upset people here. I see people here starting businesses that IMO will fail. They usually do. But, I have seen/helped others that are doing great.
> Back in California we think "out of the box" quite a bit.
> One has to study and learn what will work here. Not just open another bar.
> There are opportunities here if your smart about it. Simple as that. And if I can do it, so can others!
> Make it a great day!


You seem to miss a very important point: you are in California not Spain.
Of course some businesses will fail and others will prosper. We know that. It's a truism. We were in business too and not burger-flipping. We saw many businesses fail while others prospered.

I think it's wrong to talk about failing businesses as if it were like losing a tennis match. Business failures can result in debt, poverty, homelerssness, family break-up and even suicide. Once again, words don't reflect reality.

Californians aren't the only people who 'think out of the box' you know. We are quite smart here in Europe too. Don't forget, we invented you some centuries ago. 

This philosophy of 'If I can do it so can others' is pure nonsense. Forget it. Humans are not all born equal, they do not have equal endowments of talent, perseverance, intelligence or any other human attribute. If what you say were true, are all those poor Americans, even in California, who haven't 'made it', just too plain dumb and lazy? Luck plays an enormous part in human success or failure, something we don't like to admit.

I have visited the U.S.many times and whilst I admire many facets of American life everything bad in Europe, from Friedmanite economic theories to Cruise missiles to Shirley Temple movies has come from America.


----------



## NickZ

mrypg9 said:


> I have visited the U.S.many times and whilst I admire many facets of American life everything bad in Europe, from Friedmanite economic theories to Cruise missiles to Shirley Temple movies has come from America.


The Austrians will tell you they invented those economic ideas. The Germans the rockets. Ms. Black was lovely


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> You seem to miss a very important point: you are in California not Spain.
> Of course some businesses will fail and others will prosper. We know that. It's a truism. We were in business too and not burger-flipping. We saw many businesses fail while others prospered.
> 
> I think it's wrong to talk about failing businesses as if it were like losing a tennis match. Business failures can result in debt, poverty, homelerssness, family break-up and even suicide. Once again, words don't reflect reality.
> 
> Californians aren't the only people who 'think out of the box' you know. We are quite smart here in Europe too. Don't forget, we invented you some centuries ago.
> 
> This philosophy of 'If I can do it so can others' is pure nonsense. Forget it. Humans are not all born equal, they do not have equal endowments of talent, perseverance, intelligence or any other human attribute. If what you say were true, are all those poor Americans, even in California, who haven't 'made it', just too plain dumb and lazy? Luck plays an enormous part in human success or failure, something we don't like to admit.
> 
> I have visited the U.S.many times and whilst I admire many facets of American life everything bad in Europe, from Friedmanite economic theories to Cruise missiles to Shirley Temple movies has come from America.












actually I'm pretty sure from his previous posts he's in Spain 

however - what you say still holds true

in his case he has found a niche business which he says works & which it seems he had previous experience of 

which doesn't mean it would have worked for anyone else without experience


----------



## mrypg9

NickZ said:


> The Austrians will tell you they invented those economic ideas. The Germans the rockets. Ms. Black was lovely



Yes, the original ideas came from the land of the waltz and the Sachertorte.
But they were made prominent in the US of A by Milton Friedman and his acolytes at the University of Chicago whose graduates spread these daffy theories all over the world. 
Hayek wrote'The Road to Serfdom' in London. I've just read it - it's not all loony tunes.

As for Ms Temple Black....I admired her - briefly - when she was detained by Czechoslovak police on October 28th 1989 when she participated in a demonstration in Old Town Square against the then socialist regime. I was in Prague the and played a very very minor role in the ensuing events, by sending over leaflets from the UK Labour Party with the slogan 'The country's crying out for change'.

I was proud to see them still stuck on walls when I returned to Prague the following February.


----------



## Goldeneye

H'mm I think that present day 'thinking' was made popular by Keynesian economics, which I think is going to lead us down the wrong path!!

Friedman's ranked 2nd .... 

Personally I do prefer the Austrian school of Economics  

What is Austrian Economics

....


----------



## fastlos

I have been living here four years now, near Granada. Both of my businesses are doing well. I make gourmet BBQ sauces, hot sauces, spice blends, import Mexican chili peppers, and grow and dry Mexican and American peppers here as well. I received my Registro Sanitario last year and also rent out my comercial kitchen to others. I also started a martial arts/yoga studio last year. 
Both businesses are doing well, luckily. But I also studied the trends, read everything related, became fluent in Spanish, took food handlers classes, started my business and my association legally, studied the market more, applied for government funding, and finally I am still adapting to business in Spain. It's different here. But most importantly, I am still having fun with my jobs. Just like back home on the central coast. 
And, you Sir could have saved yourself some stress and time by reading my earlier posts or looking at my profile to see I live in Spain. I came here with my now 11 year old son to help my mother, who is sick. 
And I will repeat, there are still opportunities here in Spain. And not all of them require great amounts of capital. Just planning, research, more research, hard work, and sure maybe a little luck! 
Make it a great night!


----------



## mrypg9

Goldeneye said:


> H'mm I think that present day 'thinking' was made popular by Keynesian economics, which I think is going to lead us down the wrong path!!
> 
> Friedman's ranked 2nd ....
> 
> Personally I do prefer the Austrian school of Economics
> 
> What is Austrian Economics
> 
> ....



Well, you are not alone in your preference. It is shared by the greedy, profligate,socially irresponsible all over the world.

'Austrian' economics is like socialist economics. It is an ideology, a pattern imposed on the chaos, contingency and unpredictability of real life. 
It has failed everywhere it has been tried. In the UK it has caused a financial crisis beyond all experience thanks to reckless deregulation of financial markets, social breakdown on an unprecedented scale and has paradoxically increased dependency on government expenditure through increased unemployment and welfare bills.

The same vacuous philosophy has through the Single European Act been transported to Europe where it has resulted in mass unemployment, social unrest and an obscene gap between the haves and have-nots.

Adherence to this kind of thinking reminds me of a slogan I once saw on a badge:

'Rich and Greedy? Poor and Stupid? Vote Tory'.

Now I think that a gross oversimplication but I do wonder why anyone who is not a billionaire many times over and has eyes to see what is happening around the world can support a bankrupt ideology like neo-liberalism.
I think the same about socialism too. Both bankrupt ideologies, neat little constructs from first principles, both totally false and impractical...because they run up against the messiness that is life.


----------



## mrypg9

fastlos said:


> I have been living here four years now, near Granada. Both of my businesses are doing well. I make gourmet BBQ sauces, hot sauces, spice blends, import Mexican chili peppers, and grow and dry Mexican and American peppers here as well. I received my Registro Sanitario last year and also rent out my comercial kitchen to others. I also started a martial arts/yoga studio last year.
> Both businesses are doing well, luckily. But I also studied the trends, read everything related, became fluent in Spanish, took food handlers classes, started my business and my association legally, studied the market more, applied for government funding, and finally I am still adapting to business in Spain. It's different here. But most importantly, I am still having fun with my jobs. Just like back home on the central coast.
> And, you Sir could have saved yourself some stress and time by reading my earlier posts or looking at my profile to see I live in Spain. I came here with my now 11 year old son to help my mother, who is sick.
> And I will repeat, there are still opportunities here in Spain. And not all of them require great amounts of capital. Just planning, research, more research, hard work, and sure maybe a little luck!
> Make it a great night!


Apologies. I do not make a habit of looking at the profiles of people who post, I am more interested in their opinions.

Nothing you have said alters my opinion. We had two businesses in the UK, sold up to live well abroad. It is just not right to make it sound so easy to be successful in business at this time and in this place.

I have a feeling that very many people who through no fault of their own have been forced to close businesses they too enjoyed, put money and effort into and yes, had their share of luck.

And I'll say it again...it is very wrong to say 'If I can do it so can you'.

I can still at my age climb a steep hill. My one-legged friend who is in a wheelchair cannot.

Life does not deal out luck and talent uniformly or fairly, sad to say.


----------



## Goldeneye

mrypg9 said:


> Well, you are not alone in your preference. It is shared by the greedy, profligate,socially irresponsible all over the world.
> 
> 'Austrian' economics is like socialist economics. It is an ideology, a pattern imposed on the chaos, contingency and unpredictability of real life.
> It has failed everywhere it has been tried. In the UK it has caused a financial crisis beyond all experience thanks to reckless deregulation of financial markets, social breakdown on an unprecedented scale and has paradoxically increased dependency on government expenditure through increased unemployment and welfare bills.
> 
> The same vacuous philosophy has through the Single European Act been transported to Europe where it has resulted in mass unemployment, social unrest and an obscene gap between the haves and have-nots.
> 
> Adherence to this kind of thinking reminds me of a slogan I once saw on a badge:
> 
> 'Rich and Greedy? Poor and Stupid? Vote Tory'.
> 
> Now I think that a gross oversimplication but I do wonder why anyone who is not a billionaire many times over and has eyes to see what is happening around the world can support a bankrupt ideology like neo-liberalism.
> I think the same about socialism too. Both bankrupt ideologies, neat little constructs from first principles, both totally false and impractical...because they run up against the messiness that is life.



I think it's the blind following of the Keynesian economics that has caused the present crisis...

RE: _Well, you are not alone in your preference. It is shared by the greedy, profligate,socially irresponsible all over the world._ 

Nice broad blanket statement................ I thought that these forums weren't supposed to mud sling.. 
I take that as a personal insult and you KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME.. 

But then I guess that is no different than when a few years ago I went to a meeting _(mostly far lefties)_ who were extolling the virtues of Bio fuels and how we should move to corn, get the wealth away from 'greedy' _(a word the left loves to use)_ petrolium company's. When I stood up and said that my fear with that would be that 1) it would put the cost of corn up for a huge % of people that live in poverty as it is.. 2) That it depletes the earth(soil) of more nutrients that virtually any other crop I was booed and heckeled down for 'daring' to think differently!

I guess I'm Rich & Greedy or Poor and Stupid then... Personally I know a lot of poor people that aren't 'stupid'....... But If you say so they must be


----------



## jojo

One things for sure, we've strayed way off topic!!! Mary, stop getting all political, you'll frighten people away lol!!!! 

In the end its: Horses, for courses, freedom of speech", democracy......... we're all different, with different views, different backrounds, different histories, different ideal. It isnt polite to disrespect the views of others!!!! So be nice!

Now, who wants to buy a bar on the costa del sol!!! :focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## bob_bob

mrypg9 said:


> Apologies. I do not make a habit of looking at the profiles of people who post, I am more interested in their opinions.
> 
> Nothing you have said alters my opinion. We had two businesses in the UK, sold up to live well abroad. *It is just not right to make it sound so easy to be successful in business at this time and in this place.*
> 
> I have a feeling that very many people who through no fault of their own have been forced to close businesses they too enjoyed, put money and effort into and yes, had their share of luck.
> 
> And I'll say it again...it is very wrong to say 'If I can do it so can you'.
> 
> I can still at my age climb a steep hill. My one-legged friend who is in a wheelchair cannot.
> 
> Life does not deal out luck and talent uniformly or fairly, sad to say.


Mary I've no idea how much time you spent in the States but Americans have a very positive attitude, in England "Look at John over there, went bust last year, very sad" but in America its more like "Look at John over there, went bust last year but this year is trying a new idea"

I lived an worked there for a while and the work ethic certainly was way stronger than the UK and they also forgave mistakes and gave a second chance more than the UK so whilst I know where your coming from I can also see the other posters point of view.

Personally I'd not think of buying a bar/eatery anywhere, especially Spain at the moment; I enjoy my pensions and income from property rental, 'heck' I money while I'm asleep


----------



## VFR

Remember really trying to get the taste of Mexican food about 20 years ago & funny enough that was in Mexico.
We were used to eating the local scram wherever we visited & on this occasion tried a whole heap of dishes at the restaurant when the owner realised we were looking for some authentic dishes (real helpful guy)

Never bothered with Mexican after that night & since, yes big industry has had this eat "authentic" Mexican dishes going for a good spell now (or should that be Speil ?) all wrapped up in an excuse and nothing like the local kit (that was nice)

Still I remember eating at the first Wimpy in London a few years back & thought it was great at the time.


----------



## xabiaxica

playamonte said:


> Remember really trying to get the taste of Mexican food about 20 years ago & funny enough that was in Mexico.
> We were used to eating the local scram wherever we visited & on this occasion tried a whole heap of dishes at the restaurant when the owner realised we were looking for some authentic dishes (real helpful guy)
> 
> Never bothered with Mexican after that night & since, yes big industry has had this eat "authentic" Mexican dishes going for a good spell now (or should that be Speil ?) all wrapped up in an excuse and nothing like the local kit (that was nice)
> *
> Still I remember eating at the first Wimpy in London a few years back & thought it was great at the time*.


I didn't think you were THAT old 


:bolt:


----------



## VFR

xabiachica said:


> I didn't think you were THAT old
> 
> 
> :bolt:


Jo likes that as well, cheeky girl.


----------



## Goldeneye

bob_bob said:


> Mary I've no idea how much time you spent in the States but Americans have a very positive attitude, in England "Look at John over there, went bust last year, very sad" but in America its more like "Look at John over there, went bust last year but this year is trying a new idea"


Same attitude as here in Canada, There is one American guy who often quotes.. If he were to loose his fortune, give him $500 and he'd make it again.. 
Most millionaires and business people are *SELF MADE*.. They are ones that pay taxes and provide the jobs so others can pay their taxes too and pay for the government workers ....
They aren't the lazy Idle people as a few here seem to like to portray them as.. And good for them...



bob_bob said:


> I enjoy my pensions and income from property rental, 'heck' I money while I'm asleep


:clap2: Congrats and good for you, for taking the risk.. 
I almost did, sadly only bought 2 rentals 12 years ago.. Sold one when it doubled, paid 24K to the Tax man_ (who didn't take any risks) _ 
I put the rest into cheap Gold stocks and lost it all in 2008.. 
But on the positive I still have the other which will be paid off in another 12 years or so!! (my pension)
I, like others that are self employed don't have the LUXURY of a work pension, being self employed all my life, I don't get tax payer funded pension hand out as Government workers do! And some of these seem bitter and resent entrepreneurs! Go figure !!

...


----------



## fastlos

Wow, some people are really wound up tight. Looking for something to criticize or to insult. Using large words.. Angry over failed businesses. 
Maybe a yoga class would help.


----------



## jojo

fastlos said:


> Wow, some people are really wound up tight. Looking for something to criticize or to insult. Using large words.. Angry over failed businesses.
> Maybe a yoga class would help.


We're cool, we like discussions. However, Lets all stay on topic. Political stuff needs to go in La Tasca

Jo xxx


----------



## DJW2015

It's interesting reading the feedback to see how many fors and againsts there are for running bars in Spain.
I had a restaurant in Spain (CDS) 12 years ago, bought it cheap, refurbished it, made a living (not a great one), sold it cheap and moved on.
No regrets. Actually came back to the UK with some money in my pocket, enough to put a deposit down on a house.
So, 12 years on, I've been offered what I think is a great opportunity, a 50 cover restaurant, little competition, inland CDS, rent is cheap and includes a 2 bedroom flat, in addition I will still own property in the UK which is let and produces a monthly income, in addition relocating to Spain would also include a part time estate agency job (that's what I do in the UK and have done in Spain also), can't help but in all seems like a great idea ....


----------



## jojo

DJW2015 said:


> It's interesting reading the feedback to see how many fors and againsts there are for running bars in Spain.
> I had a restaurant in Spain (CDS) 12 years ago, bought it cheap, refurbished it, made a living (not a great one), sold it cheap and moved on.
> No regrets. Actually came back to the UK with some money in my pocket, enough to put a deposit down on a house.
> So, 12 years on, I've been offered what I think is a great opportunity, a 50 cover restaurant, little competition, inland CDS, rent is cheap and includes a 2 bedroom flat, in addition I will still own property in the UK which is let and produces a monthly income, in addition relocating to Spain would also include a part time estate agency job (that's what I do in the UK and have done in Spain also), can't help but in all seems like a great idea ....


You've done it before, you know the pitfalls - you may not have gone through the recession, but if you have nothing to lose, then why not???? Its worth reading through the forum to see what changes have happened in Spain ie healthcare, employment contracts etc

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiachica said:


> we have a bar here which is on its 3rd owners since we've been in spain - the first two didn't make a go of it - this owner has turned it right around - it's a really busy, popular family bar - lots of different entertainment going on all the time
> 
> but they have had enough - the long long hours have taken their toll - no point having a successful business if you have no life


That bar is now on its second owners since the owners I was talking about in 2011 sold it eventually in Jan 2014

Those they sold it to thought that they could put staff in to do all the work, pay them & pocket the profits......

That didn't last 

They sold it on very quickly & although I haven't been in since, but it sounds as if it's doing OK from what I hear

The owner is working there all the hours it's open though



oh - & those who had that bar in 2011 now have a live music venue.......... so much for retiring


----------



## DJW2015

I think a lot of people are under an illusion that hospitality work of any description doesn't involve tremendously long and arduos hours. 
I'm not ... I've had 2 restaurants, a nightclub and 3 hotels over the years ....


----------



## jojo

DJW2015 said:


> I think a lot of people are under an illusion that hospitality work of any description doesn't involve tremendously long and arduos hours.
> I'm not ... I've had 2 restaurants, a nightclub and 3 hotels over the years ....


I think the problem is that a long time ago, before Spain became "up and running", it was fairly easy to go, set up a bar and "live the life". But that was a long time ago. Still there are many people who come onto the forum with that plan, who have never even worked in the industry at all - but it sounds like a nice idea.

Now with so much competition and red tape - and the recent recession, its as you say, hard work and in many cases requires a second income. But as an "old pro" you'll probably be fine and you have your property in the UK to fall back on

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

DJW2015 said:


> It's interesting reading the feedback to see how many fors and againsts there are for running bars in Spain.
> I had a restaurant in Spain (CDS) 12 years ago, bought it cheap, refurbished it, made a living (not a great one), sold it cheap and moved on.
> No regrets. Actually came back to the UK with some money in my pocket, enough to put a deposit down on a house.
> So, 12 years on, I've been offered what I think is a great opportunity, a 50 cover restaurant, little competition, inland CDS, rent is cheap and includes a 2 bedroom flat, in addition I will still own property in the UK which is let and produces a monthly income, in addition relocating to Spain would also include a part time estate agency job (that's what I do in the UK and have done in Spain also), can't help but in all seems like a great idea ....


Much depends upon where it is. Also is it up and running or currently closed?


----------



## DJW2015

It's currently closed. But it does mean no premium for 'goodwill' which is lost the minute the current owner walks out the door.
There is little / no competition for a smart evening bistro in the area.


----------



## jimenato

DJW2015 said:


> It's currently closed. But it does mean no premium for 'goodwill' which is lost the minute the current owner walks out the door.
> There is little / no competition for a smart evening bistro in the area.


It's just about impossible to give any opinion without knowing more about the situation. 

Is it in a holiday/tourist area? Maybe it's in a residential expat situation? 

Also, what would you intend to do with it - expat/tourist or expat/Spanish?

You say it is inland so can we infer it is not in a holiday area? How big is the catchment - would people drive in from the surrounding area?

More info needed.

BTW I have some experience in running a bar/bistro inland from the CDS.


----------



## Allay sea

Running a small bar is really hard work. If the premises is badly setup ie. Poor kitchen etc. it's a nightmare. Forget it!


----------



## DJW2015

I haven't viewed it yet. Heading out in a week or so.


----------



## Isobella

Most inland bars seem to close quicker than the coast. Nearly all bars *claim* to be doing well, next minute they have gone and I don't think it is because of the work


----------



## DJW2015

We wouldn't be running just a bar, it would be a French style bistro, so not relying heavily on drinks only income.
One of us is a fully qualified Chef, the other is a Restaurant manager in a 4 star country house hotel.
I appreciate people with similar skills have been and failed, it is, in a lot of ways down to luck. 
One thing for certain is we will have multiple income streams and be operating in a town where we have fantastic support from the community based on the fact that my best friend there is a local council member.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Where is the bar?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Where is the bar?


Rabbitcat, according to this your adopted island is sinking, you're running out of drinking water and crops are failing. Get out while you can!!!!!
Desperate call from a sinking nation: President of Kiribati tells world leaders to leave the politics at home for Paris climate conference | South China Morning Post


----------

