# If You Go Out In The Woods Today You´d Better Not Go Alone



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

CHIAPAS TALES NOT TO BE TAKEN FRIVOLOUSLY
So this guy from Teopisca sells his car on loan to a guy from Chamula.. The Chamulan drives the car back to Chamula and opens a taxi service. He fails to pay the Teopiscan his agreed loan payments. The Teopiscan seeks the aid of a friend and the two drive to Chamula to, as was their right, demand required payments or repossess the vehicle. They confront the taxi driver and when he refuses to pay, take possession of their vehicle. The taxi driver tells his Chamulan friends that these guys from Teopisca are theives who just stole his car so a posse is formed upon short notice and the Teopiscans are severely beaten. dosed with gasoline and burned alive. 

Later some local folks are arrested by Chiapas authorities for inappropriate behavior but try to guess where they are going to go with that.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> CHIAPAS TALES NOT TO BE TAKEN FRIVOLOUSLY
> So this guy from Teopisca sells his car on loan to a guy from Chamula.. The Chamulan drives the car back to Chamula and opens a taxi service. He fails to pay the Teopiscan his agreed loan payments. The Teopiscan seeks the aid of a friend and the two drive to Chamula to, as was their right, demand required payments or repossess the vehicle. They confront the taxi driver and when he refuses to pay, take possession of their vehicle. The taxi driver tells his Chamulan friends that these guys from Teopisca are theives who just stole his car so a posse is formed upon short notice and the Teopiscans are severely beaten. dosed with gasoline and burned alive.
> 
> Later some local folks are arrested by Chiapas authorities for inappropriate behavior but try to guess where they are going to go with that.


The moral of this story is beware of doing business with Chamulans?


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> CHIAPAS TALES NOT TO BE TAKEN FRIVOLOUSLY
> So this guy from Teopisca sells his car on loan to a guy from Chamula.. The Chamulan drives the car back to Chamula and opens a taxi service. He fails to pay the Teopiscan his agreed loan payments. The Teopiscan seeks the aid of a friend and the two drive to Chamula to, as was their right, demand required payments or repossess the vehicle. They confront the taxi driver and when he refuses to pay, take possession of their vehicle. The taxi driver tells his Chamulan friends that these guys from Teopisca are theives who just stole his car so a posse is formed upon short notice and the Teopiscans are severely beaten. dosed with gasoline and burned alive.
> 
> Later some local folks are arrested by Chiapas authorities for inappropriate behavior but try to guess where they are going to go with that.


In an environment where the rule of law prevails (probably irrelevant here), the Teopiscans would have been in error reclaiming the car themselves. They should have gotten a court order to repossess the car. However, vigilante justice for this error of omission is not the solution. The story is a good example of how the failure of a civil and criminal justice system impedes economic development of the country. If people have no way to enforce contracts and agreements, then they are reluctant to engage in them (Isla's solution) and the whole country suffers.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

I remember about the McCoys and Hatfields


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I remember about the McCoys and Hatfields


I would imagine that local law enforcement officers (if there were any in the world of the McCoys and the Hatfields) rarely ventured into the area where they lived.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

To go to get a court order you have to trust the court and I am not sure the court would do anything about a case in Chamula. The plaintiff also would have to have all his paperwork in order and I many time there is no paperwork, many deals are done on handshake and then it is good luck to the person who was wronged. What I do not understand is why anyone would go to Chamula to reposess a car in a middle of a fiesta whare everyone is drunk.
I do go to Chamula to see the few friends I have there but I do not stay around when people are drinking as it can get really touchy. 
I asked a friend who lives near the plaza there what happened and she told me that the men from Teopisca tried to get out but that their mistake was to go to the plaza to ask for help rather than get out of town. Then the guy who wanted to buy the car screamed thieves thieves and all the men around descended on ther two men from Teopisca.
Chamula is a volatil place and it is not safe to go there as an outsider to try to get justice when everyone is drunk. You are not talking about a nice town and everyone knows that so I do not get why those Teopisca guys would even go there during fiesta time.
Eighty state police were send the next day to arrest some people not sure anyone would go in there to enforce a car theft..Cops get killed trying to arrest some people in indigenous village as the whole town turns against them. 
TundraGreen..getting a court order is one thing getting it enforced in Chamula is another. You have to chose your battles carefully.

The seller from Teopisca should have told the Chamulans to come back with the money and not let them take the car while they were in his territory. That is the real moral of the story.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> …
> TundraGreen..getting a court order is one thing getting it enforced in Chamula is another. You have to chose your battles carefully.…


My posting was a comment on the legal system, rather than a suggestion for a course of action in this case.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The legal system is a mess and very corrupt..A friend of mine has a son who crossed the wrong guy and her son has been in Jail for 2 months with no possibility of bail and they have an amparo to have the case heard by a federal judge as the local judge is a friend of the man who accused him of extortion .The police has a report saying that there was no extortion by the 2 kids who were sent by a collection agency to collect a large amount past due to CFE or turn off the electricity. The amount is still due , the electricity is still on and the 2 kids are in jail the Human Rights commission is involved and a Federal judge will review he case but the 2 young guys are in jail without bail possibility. The justice system at the local level is totally corrupt and a waste of time. The man who owes the money is a powerful man and has decided not to pay his electric bill and has the judge who is his friend keep the 2 kids in jail..It is pretty mind blowing but it is reality.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TundraGreen said:



My posting was a comment on the legal system, rather than a suggestion for a course of action in this case.

Click to expand...

_I dare not try to speak for my esposa Citlali if I wish to retain gonads but I believe she understood your point quite well and speaking of the rule of law, Dawg was born in the Alabama of the early 40s and was raised there through the 50s. Citlali, on the other hand, was born in the Loire Valley and raised in Paris. We were married in 1972 in Mobile County, Alabama. Mobile is a large city and, as a port, was somewhat cosmopolitan for Alabama in those days. When we applied for a marriage license in Mobile in 1972, the days when the rule of law prevailed with some stringency, the rule of law was that white folks were not permitted to marry black folks and the notion of gay marriaige existed only on the other side of the moon.


I had gone to the Mobile County offices to apply for a marrriage license alone as my intended was indisposed that day so, since I am clearly a white boy, the County Clerk presented me with a " White Marraige License" so I inquired as to how she knew my proposed wife was a caucasion. Her response was immediate and antagonistic and was something to the effect that, "Sir, that is not amusing in the least." 

Dawg and Citlali have always been attracted to marginal places where the rule of law serves the gentry as is the case in Chiapas where we reside part-time now and have for some eight years..


----------



## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

We were in Chamula when a tour bus arrived. They were given the usual lecture on not taking photos of the "priests" that were coming out of the church and parading( sorry I forgot the name of the priests). One ignorant woman ignored the warnings and started snapping photos. In one minute some Chamulas jumped her. They were yelling and had this wild look. It was very scary. They had taken her camera. Other Chamulas came over and pulled these crazed people off the stupid woman. She lost her camera but was able to leave alive. We watched from afar. The locals have a real temper.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

If you are speaking of people wearing special costumes they were encargados or mayordomos..there are no priests, except once in a while and those are catholic priests not indigenous, I have no idea if it is permited to take their pictures..
You also have curanderos /as but those do not have a special costume not sure if you can take their pictures either.
They are very touchy around the church, I have picturs of people praying at their house and curanderas but I am friendly with them and pictures are no issue. 
Iit is not a good idea to take pictures there, I have been in hairy situations with people who were taken pictures. I do not take anyone there who have a camera, it is not worth it..

Taking pictures of religious ceremonies is regarded as disrepectful and for all other pictures many indigenous resent the fact that people sell their pictures and they do not get any money. They feel that it is an explotation of their culture.
Yes Bobby B taking pictures especially in Chamula when you are told not to is not a good idea they can get very nasty. They threaten a friend of mine to take her to jail and would have if she had not given them the chip. They were grabbing and pulling at her, had wild eyes as they were all drunk and it was scary.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Many years ago I had an unpleasant experience outside of San Cristóbal, though not in or near Chamula. I had gone on a small tour of a few indigenous villages with a local woman, who had grown up in the area. Anyway, she had warned us not to take pictures of any religious activities we might encounter. At one point, we had stopped on the road and somewhat in the distance, we saw a group of local people marching in a line towards us. We were told it was a "procesión", which I was not aware always meant "religious procession" in that cultural context. I lifted my camera to take a shot, when all of a sudden the entire group began running towards us in an aggressive manner. They surrounded me and wanted to take my camera. Our guide was distraught (and very angry at me) but managed to calm them down, and they left. I felt bad because I knew what a sensitive topic taking pictures was in that area, but I was also angry at our guide for not explaining better what "procesión" meant.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

The Tarahumara in the Barrancas del Cobre region in the state of Chihuahua do not like their pictures taken either. I have never seen any violence, but they will turn or walk away if anyone attempts to take a picture. In fact the women will often go out of their way to avoid going near strangers, not so much in Creel where there are a lot tourists, but certainly on paths in the canyons.

Also, it is not a good idea to take pictures at military or police checkpoints.


----------



## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

Chamula is the only place we have been in N.A where we felt like we were in some undiscovered area of the world. Their religion is unlike anything I have ever seen. Between the Coca Colas, firecrackers and chickens it is like straight out of National Geographic. But one day were in the square just sitting at some tables and having a soft drink. At the next table were some Chamula men sharing some of their favorite drink. One of them offered me some posh. I politely thanked him and explained in Spanish that I don't drink. He smiled and said in perfect English: Have you ever been to Detroit. I replied yes, many years ago. He went on to explain that he worked there for a year! Illegally of course. We had a great visit with him. Go figure! Mexico is a country of contrasts.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Many villages have the same type of religion , it is called traditional Catholicim.. the traditional refers to Mayan religion not the catholic one..San Andres, Aldama, Santa Marta have the same rituals , actually Zinacantan does too and so do all the other villages. The customs are pretty similar in all the Mayan villages in Chiapas, Chamula is just closer to San Cristobal and gets all the tourists. The Zincantan church looks more like a traditional church but the customs and rituals are similar. San Andres is probably the closest to Chamula. Also similar to Chichicastenango in Guatemala


----------



## kumbiaking (Jan 10, 2016)

Many small towns all over Mexico still have community laws, and do not have "police" as foreigners are accustomed to. Be very careful and respectful.


----------

