# Passing citizenship on



## Thaicat

Evening all, 

My fiancee is part italian. Born to an italian grandmother and irish grandfather on her dads side. However, her nan was born to two italians in New york. Those two italians (great grandparents) were also born to italians (great great grand parents) who were from italy. 

We have found out that all were pure italian. At what point does citizenship by descent stop for italians ?

Any help would be wonderful .Thank you.


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat said:


> Evening all,
> 
> My fiancee is part italian. Born to an italian grandmother and irish grandfather on her dads side. However, her nan was born to two italians in New york. Those two italians (great grandparents) were also born to italians (great great grand parents) who were from italy.
> 
> We have found out that all were pure italian. At what point does citizenship by descent stop for italians ?
> 
> Any help would be wonderful .Thank you.


Hi Thaicat, perhaps this will help. I read the explanation in wikipedia, but there was just so much info and law, it was difficult to follow.
I found this in my search. Perhaps someone will answer and give more info.

In case the link doesn't work, try typing it into your search.

http://www.italyworldclub.com/genealogy/italian_citizenship


----------



## BBCWatcher

Current (and past) Italian citizenship law requires that you have a parent who is (or in some cases was) recognizable as an Italian citizen. Citizenship transmission does not skip generations. There is no residence test applied. Note that there were no Italian citizens before 1861 because Italy did not exist as a nation.

For example, let's suppose you have documentation that your great great grandfather was born in 1859, alive (obviously) in 1861 when Italy became a nation, and you have solid documentation he was an Italian citizen. You can then start to figure out whether his son (your great grandfather) was born an Italian citizen, then his son, and so on. If you can gather sufficient documentation to support an unbroken citizenship chain to you, then you can apply for recognition as an Italian citizen.

But you're not an Italian citizen by descent unless your mother or father is (or in some cases was), so you have to prove that chain, regardless of whether or not intervening ancestors want to be recognized. (They don't have to be if they don't wish.)

That's the basic idea. There are a few wrinkles, though. For example, anyone voluntarily acquiring a foreign (non-Italian) citizenship before August 15, 1992, automatically lost his/her Italian citizenship. That can certainly break the chain for yet to be born children (in most cases) and also in some cases affect previously born children who were then minors. The law changed a bit over time, but it's very well understood.

If you post some more details then I could give you an assessment. The required details would be birth, marriage, naturalization, and death dates for each/every individual in the family line you want assessed, starting with the ancestor who was definitely known to be a documented Italian citizen.


----------



## Thaicat

Wow, thank you so much !!! I will contact the grandmother today ..we know she in her 50s/60s and that she was born 2 italians in USA. 

My fiances father, is half italian (through his mum ) and half irish (dad) he too was born in the USA prob in late 60s.

I will gather info asap. We do have some names and dates already. I shall get back to you.

Thank you very much indeed.


----------



## BBCWatcher

There are no ethnic percentage requirements to qualify for citizenship recognition, so just ignore that. Mario Balotelli's children are born Italian citizens just like the children of any other Italian citizen-parents. It's very common for a stereotypically 100% ethnic Italian individual not to be an Italian citizen while a stereotypically 0% ethnic Italian individual is.


----------



## Thaicat

I'm trying to gather data .The fiancees great great grand parents were born in italy. 
I believe so were the 3x great grandparents. From the great grandparents it seems everyone was born in NJ Jersey City. I'm seeing what I can find


----------



## Thaicat

Where is the best place to get free online records of family history ? does anyone know ?

Were trying to trace on the male side back to Italy, we believe the great grandad was born in Sicily.


----------



## BBCWatcher

The LDS Church, believe it or not, has an amazing collection of genealogical records including lots of civil records from Italy. You can visit one of their family history centers around the world, and/or you can visit familysearch.org to view records they have available online.

Of course you will eventually have to get records from Italy, but see what you can find through the Mormons.


----------



## Thaicat

Oooo. Fabulous. Okay, I shall try that!! I'm struggling to find the names and dates I have in NJ/NYC for births/deaths.

We have nanas details..she was born after the 1948 rule. Her father was born around 20/25 in Jersey City but we believe his dad came over from Sicily..his details are harder to obtain.

I figured by finding the great grandads details in Jersey City..it might lead me to the great great grandfather from Sicily. But alas no.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Have you checked the U.S. and (if applicable) New York State censuses? Ellis Island ship manifests? These are all available online. The latest U.S. Census available is 1940.

Ancestry.com also has a bunch of stuff. Some public libraries have subscriptions, and from time to time there are free trials.


----------



## Thaicat

I shall check ellis island from 1890- 1930 and see and try the free trial on ancestry..I just forget to quit them when done.

Good idea on the census. Top tip. Thank you *thumbs up*


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat said:


> Oooo. Fabulous. Okay, I shall try that!! I'm struggling to find the names and dates I have in NJ/NYC for births/deaths.
> 
> We have nanas details..she was born after the 1948 rule. Her father was born around 20/25 in Jersey City but we believe his dad came over from Sicily..his details are harder to obtain.
> 
> I figured by finding the great grandads details in Jersey City..it might lead me to the great great grandfather from Sicily. But alas no.


Thaicat,
Did you know that alot of information is available from one's application for social security, and vital records?
If you're a child, grandchild, wife, husband, siblings, and so on, of a deceased person, you're eligible to order such information. The social security app has lots of information on it. You'll need your birth certificate, etc. When you apply online it will have the requirememnts.
I ordered the info I needed for my paternal grandparents who came to the US, by ship, in 1920 and 1921.
There will be a cost, but you will need to pay for it either way you decide to research.
I found my g.parents oath for citizenship online.
I did my research on ancestry...
You'll need to work backwards during your search...parents, grandparents..etc.

PS, Whatever search co you use, you'll need to pay for the official certified records, the search may be free, but not the records you'll need.


----------



## Thaicat

When italians came to the usa back previous to the 40s as children..they were automatically naturalised ? Or as adults they naturalised ? 

Does this mean italian citizenship cant be passed down by blood ? It's the great great grandfather we think. They all came from italy but the female line couldnt pass citizenship until 1948. Nana was born after 48 so its her dads- dad.


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat said:


> When italians came to the usa back previous to the 40s as children..they were automatically naturalised ? Or as adults they naturalised ?
> 
> Does this mean italian citizenship cant be passed down by blood ? It's the great great grandfather we think. They all came from italy but the female line couldnt pass citizenship until 1948. Nana was born after 48 so its her dads- dad.


I found this on wikipedia, we may need to break it down a bit. I hope it helps you.


Basic Criteria for Acquisition of Citizenship jus sanguinis:

There were no Italian citizens prior to 17 March 1861, because Italy had not yet been a unified state. Thus the oldest Italian ancestor from whom citizenship is proven to be derived in any jus sanguinis citizenship claim must have been still alive on or after that date.

Any child born to an Italian citizen parent (including parents also having the right to Italian citizenship jus sanguinis) is ordinarily born an Italian citizen, with the following caveats:
The Italian parent ordinarily must not have naturalised as a citizen of another country before both the child's birth date and the date 15 August 1992.

If the child had an Italian mother and a foreign father, the child ordinarily must have been born on or after 1 January 1948.
If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if the child was already born, and residing in a country whose citizenship he or she additionally held because of that country's jus soli nationality laws. 

Conversely, if the child was not born in a country whose citizenship was attributed to the child based on jus soli provisions in its nationality law, then the child could lose Italian citizenship by acquiring the citizenship of the naturalising parent. Italy generally does not attribute its citizenship based on jus soli, so an Italian child born in Italy could lose Italian citizenship in the event that his father naturalised.

If the Italian parent naturalised as a citizen of another country on or after 1 July 1912, and prior to 15 August 1992, then the child's Italian citizenship survived the parent's loss if he or she reached legal adulthood (age 21 prior to 10 March 1975; age 18 thereafter) prior to the parent's naturalisation.

If the child's Italian father naturalised as a citizen of another country prior to 1 July 1912, the child's Italian citizenship was not directly impacted by the father's loss if the child reached legal adulthood (age 21) by the time the father naturalised, or else if the child was residing in Italy when the father naturalised.

Italian citizens naturalising in another country prior to 15 August 1992, while being of legal adult age, typically lost their Italian citizenship at that time.

Italy has been a participant in the Strasbourg convention on the reduction of cases of multiple citizenship. Children born outside of Italy with the citizenship of a member country may not have been able to hold Italian citizenship by birth because of this convention. The convention has also extended the era when Italians could lose citizenship by foreign naturalisation to dates later than 14 August 1992, if the naturalisation were in a participant country.

All conditions above must be met by every person in a direct lineage. There is no generational limit, except in respect to the date of 17 March 1861. Note that if an Italian ancestor naturalised as a citizen of another country independently from his or her parents, and prior to reaching legal Italian adulthood (age 21 prior to 10 March 1975, and age 18 otherwise), then often that ancestor retained Italian citizenship even after the naturalisation and could still pass citizenship on to children.
Also, having one qualifying Italian parent — who except in certain situations could only have been the child's father if the birth occurred before 1 January 1948 — is sufficient for deriving (inheriting) citizenship, even if the other Italian parent naturalised or otherwise became unable to pass on citizenship. Sometimes that qualifying parent is the foreign-born mother, because foreign women who married Italian men prior to 27 April 1983 automatically became Italian citizens and, in many cases, retained that citizenship even when their Italian husbands later naturalised.


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat, I broke it down to make it easier to read, I didn't delet or add.


----------



## Thaicat

Bello Bello,

Thank you very much !! So what I have to do is check the landing dates and ages ...Oki coki I shall go through all this - Wow it is a lot to find out I feel so overwhelmed.

Very helpful of you and BBC to help me out with this. It is worth going through if my fiancee can become Italian so to speak.


----------



## Thaicat

So far: Breakdown.

Matteo Comelleri- Italy- Father of:

John Comelleri -Sicily.( Possibly)- Father of :

John Comelleri 2nd- Born Jersey City (Jus soli)- march 1st 1925 died jan 11th 1981- Father of:

Denise Comelleri (Foster) born 8th May 1951 (Past 1948)- Mother of:

Christopher Foster born - 1971 -Jersey City- Father of:

Cortney Foster: Born 1991. My Fiancee.

But it seems John Comelleri 1st....according to the Wiki breakdown..could not have naturalized before the birth of his son John the 2nd, nor before 1992- Is that correct ?


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat said:


> When italians came to the usa back previous to the 40s as children..they were automatically naturalised ? Or as adults they naturalised ?
> 
> Does this mean italian citizenship cant be passed down by blood ? It's the great great grandfather we think. They all came from italy but the female line couldnt pass citizenship until 1948. Nana was born after 48 so its her dads- dad.




When one is naturalized in your example, yes, it was automatic. Which means it can be passed down. 

I have an appointment and will be out for awhile today, I'll read the wikipedia aticle again and get back to you.

Perhaps there is someone on the forum who may help? Someone more experienced?

You'll still need documentation.


----------



## Thaicat

I believe jus soli means naturalisation does not matter where the immigrant was from Italy. 

I assume. Thank you ineed  there have been some awfully kind people helping me. It really makes my day so thank you.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Thaicat, the line you list should work provided you establish that John Comelleri #1 did not naturalize -- either directly or derivatively -- prior to the birth of his son (John #2) in 1925. So you need to focus on resolving that question. If he didn't naturalize at all and if he was still alive in 1940 then USCIS should have an alien registration card for him.

To perform official naturalization searches you would check with USCIS (genealogy program), NARA, and local courts.

At what age did John #1 arrive in the United States?

You're confused about the so-called 1948 rule, so ignore that -- you're one generation off. Even if it were a problem it's surmountable.


----------



## Thaicat

This is exactly what I have just been pondering BBC !!! 

I will be searching a little while yet !!!

Thank you.


----------



## Thaicat

Okaaayyy. I've learnt many sites aren't totally accurate.

Familysearch.org

Matteo- comilleri (spelt) on registration card under draft registration dated sept 1918.
Born 1873 italy .Lives in jersey city.Nj
Married to marianna.
Declarant:Alien. 

A seperate census shows matteo:
Wife marion. 
Son: joseph. 

Ancestry.com shows in order from top record to bottom:
Matties comelleri (spelt)
1873 italy (est)
lives jersey city.

Marion comelleri
spouse matties
italy 
1880 (est)

John comelleri
1904 (est)
Jersey city 
wife Fartuna. 

Fartuna comelleri
jersey city
1907 (est)

Joseph comelleri
abt 1907
Jersey city
son of matties comelleri 

Rose comelleri
Jersey city
abt 1925

John comelleri jnr
born 1926
Jersey city.

At first I looked at matties (matteo unless these are two diff people both from italy in 1873)and noted that once census record has joseph as his son..no more kids.
Then online.. I see joseph and rose...both are given as children of matties.
I noted the War record is hand written and matched the census but it is spelt..comilleri and his wife is marianna. Online searches show wife marion and surname as comelleri.

The list above is how the names are listed online on ancestry.com almost as if theyre all from the same family. But john comilleri senior born 1904 ...is when checked... listed as a seperate person with his wife and john comilleri junior. 

Now, we know john juniors dad was called john senior..i have found census matching father wife and one son...this is what I was told ...he was an only child. 

We know john seniors dad was known/called matteo/mattieo comelleri (comilleri) is it possible... that the census 1940 of matteo/marianna/joesph.... and the later online digital record matteo/marion/joseph/rose (the census, war record and online details all match ) ....have not recorded john senior..born 1904ish ? 

I can not find anymore matteos of this surname in jersey city the same time john senior was born. As I say... we know matteo was john seniors dad.. we known john senior had john jnr... but I cant match john senior with matteo despite his record as an adult being inbetween the family ones of matteo online. 

Help :/


----------



## BBCWatcher

Why do you have to go back to Matteo? John #1 was also born an Italian citizen, and if he was born in Sicily he'll have a birth record there (which you'll need). Start with trying to figure out whether and how John #1 acquired U.S. citizenship. If he got it when his father naturalized (i.e. when John #1 was under age 21 and unmarried) then that line probably isn't going to work, and it won't matter whether his father was named Matteo or Giuseppe or Vincenzo.

That's the only real question for that line: did John #1 acquire U.S. citizenship, when, and how? This isn't a whole family tree construction project, really. You just need one branch that works.


----------



## BelloBello

Thaicat said:


> Okaaayyy. I've learnt many sites aren't totally accurate.
> 
> Familysearch.org
> 
> Matteo- comilleri (spelt) on registration card under draft registration dated sept 1918.
> Born 1873 italy .Lives in jersey city.Nj
> Married to marianna.
> Declarant:Alien.
> 
> A seperate census shows matteo:
> Wife marion.
> Son: joseph.
> 
> Ancestry.com shows in order from top record to bottom:
> Matties comelleri (spelt)
> 1873 italy (est)
> lives jersey city.
> 
> Marion comelleri
> spouse matties
> italy
> 1880 (est)
> 
> John comelleri
> 1904 (est)
> Jersey city
> wife Fartuna.
> 
> Fartuna comelleri
> jersey city
> 1907 (est)
> 
> Joseph comelleri
> abt 1907
> Jersey city
> son of matties comelleri
> 
> Rose comelleri
> Jersey city
> abt 1925
> 
> John comelleri jnr
> born 1926
> Jersey city.
> 
> At first I looked at matties (matteo unless these are two diff people both from italy in 1873)and noted that once census record has joseph as his son..no more kids.
> Then online.. I see joseph and rose...both are given as children of matties.
> I noted the War record is hand written and matched the census but it is spelt..comilleri and his wife is marianna. Online searches show wife marion and surname as comelleri.
> 
> The list above is how the names are listed online on ancestry.com almost as if theyre all from the same family. But john comilleri senior born 1904 ...is when checked... listed as a seperate person with his wife and john comilleri junior.
> 
> Now, we know john juniors dad was called john senior..i have found census matching father wife and one son...this is what I was told ...he was an only child.
> 
> We know john seniors dad was known/called matteo/mattieo comelleri (comilleri) is it possible... that the census 1940 of matteo/marianna/joesph.... and the later online digital record matteo/marion/joseph/rose (the census, war record and online details all match ) ....have not recorded john senior..born 1904ish ?
> 
> I can not find anymore matteos of this surname in jersey city the same time john senior was born. As I say... we know matteo was john seniors dad.. we known john senior had john jnr... but I cant match john senior with matteo despite his record as an adult being inbetween the family ones of matteo online.
> 
> Help :/


Thaicat,
I have full access to ancestry.com. If you don't mind I'll see what I may find for you. 
I may send you a message Sunday if I need more info, okay?
When I find the info, and if it's correct, I will post it in the forums, or if you prefer, I'll message you.
I'll work on it on Sunday. 

:wave:


----------



## Thaicat

Ooo wow thank you everyone !!! According to two sites..matteo came over to the usa with his wife. 

I have had it confirmed...matteo and his wife had other kids and rose and john were two of them. They had 5 it seems.

I have seen an actual document online of a war draft card of 1918 for one year. The declarant was ticked as an alien aged 45 matteo camilleri from italy. 

The birthdate of john jnr is 1926 making john senior born around 1904 in jersey city. As US citizenship is birth right italians were allowed to hold both. I was worried that as matteo was 'drafted' and accepted it..to a years war work signed in september 1918..that hed lost his citizenship. or maybe some other way.. if he naturalised it was after the birth of john senior it appears .....if at all. 

If anyone can help me with naturalisation or italian law. I can now find out what happens from here on in. The only other problem I forsee is if the records have it wrong and John senior was born in Sicily..


----------



## Thaicat

*thumbs up* bello !!! Thank you soooooo much !!! how helpful gave you both been here !!! Out of it all, I have learnt a lot. If anything, we now have a family history even if we cant be associated to Italy legally. 

Thank you


----------



## Thaicat

Ok. I think it may be a dead end.
The census says John senior was born in new jersey....

A look on myfamilysearch.org shows john as from italy.
Born 1903 and wife Fortuna.Child john junior. 

A look through myfamilysearch.org again under the name john camilleri shows a New York naturalisation record for 1924 so he would have been 19/20 years old. 

The john senior had his son in 1926.


----------



## BBCWatcher

No, you're not dead yet. You have to find out if that John is really your John #1, whether he actually naturalized in 1924, if he was indeed a minor (under age 21 at that time) when he naturalized (special rules apply), when he married his wife, his wife's nationality, and whether she naturalized.

In short, don't jump to any conclusions. Get all the dates for all the people confirmed first. For example, you don't have a firm date of U.S. naturalization until you get a copy of the naturalization certificate indicating when he/she took the oath. The date of petition doesn't count.


----------



## Thaicat

Ahh ok. 
Humm. record 1# Jon senior born new jersey around 1904. Wife born new jersey.
Son john junior born new jersey.

Though the census says: If foreign birth, give country of which birthplace was situated on Jan 1st 1937 (bit blurred) not sure what this means. 

Record online at ancestry:born new jersey.
Record online familysearch: Born Italy 1903.

Record of naturalisation: a john camilleri in 1924. 

His father matteo and him (j senior) I can not find through ellis island.

Denise...the decendant believes Jon senior came from italy but she was around 10/12 when he died.. so that would have been around 1960/65. 

Thank you again for your help... I'm not getting my hopes up. 4 european grandparents and my fiancee can't get 2of them already. Italy is her most well known link.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Take this very slowly and methodically. Believe it or not it's fairly easy to find individuals with the same names in approximately the same places at the same times. Millions of Italians emigrated to the U.S. in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It was among the largest human migrations in history, perhaps the largest.

Just to give you a preview, though, if your fiancee's ancestor married a woman born in the U.S. before he naturalized as a U.S. citizen, she may still have a valid claim. But we'll cross that bridge if/when we get there -- and that's just one permutation.


----------



## Thaicat

That I am not sure of..
The Ancestor I can find from italy is matteo...he came over with wife or maybe married an italian here.
As I say, war draft at 45 shows him as an alien.



John senior I know married fortuna.. did he meet her here ? I'm not sure. If he did come over it was as a minor so I guess yes He could of. 

I can not find SS records of John senior..only census of John senior with wife and john junior. This is the 1940 census. 

How do I get the missing details..do I need to send off ? 

Thank you
Thai


----------



## Thaicat

According to familysearch 1930 census Jon senior is from Italy and married Fortuna who was from New Jersey. 

That's all Ive found at the moment. 

Thai


----------



## Bevdeforges

Ultimately, you'll have to get birth records, possibly marriage records and such for everyone so that you can establish the direct lineage. Census and SS records are great for genealogy, but the Italian government wants the government documents themselves.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Thaicat

Yes, though i'd like to avoid the time spent waiting if I can find it online. 

Obviously the expense of a few records comes at a cost and we are saving to live together, for us every penny counts. There has however been some wonderful help here and it helps a lot to talk it out with people who've done this before. 

If I can gather data, I can send off for all the paperwork accordingly.


----------



## Thaicat

Hi BBC/Bello.... 

Ok..
So....Matteo. Italian.
Aged 45 1918 Alien..war draft card. 

1940 census has him listed as 67 and as matties comelleri..and wife as marron.
It also lists him as having children Joseph aged 21 born 1919 and rose 15 born 1925.

John senior in 1940 would have been 26/7 so on census with his wife and john junior.

John was born 1904ish and his younger brother and sister were born in new jersey..since matteo was in Army in 1918.

If john was born in Italy in 1904...his father was an alien at his birth date..
and John was aged 21/22 in 1925 ...
Could he have naturalised in a year ? 


The immigration research shows people who arrive 1790 (or some year) to 1906 and had lived in US for 5 yrs consecutively..could enlist as a citizen without.. declaration made before aged 21 i think.

Now, it's a fine line... either the interpretation is... John senior arrived (if he wasnt born in usa) in this time..so could naturalise quickly as a minor..

.....or the wording is meant that only people who had arrived and lived in the usa for 5yrs between 1790/1906 could by pass and enlist quickly as a citizen. 

If he could not naturalise as a minor then he fell under the new aged 21 rules after 1906 ( and if he wasnt born in usa) and naturalised.......He would have been 21/22 in 1925....and had his son in 1926. 

I'm not sure without much info on John senior.. how I can send off for any possible naturalisation info without any information on him around this time. 

Ive found birth date/death..married to fortuna ..nothing else..


----------



## BBCWatcher

Have you figured out where John #1 was born? If in the U.S. he didn't naturalize as a U.S. citizen.

If you know where Matteo was born you can request a copy of his birth record from his commune in Italy. And you can also ask for a copies (if they exist) of any birth records for any children. But check online or at an LDS family history center to see if they have those Italian records. If they do you can enclose a copy with your request to Italy and, if John #1 was confirmed born in Italy, run U.S. genealogical searches with USCIS and NARA for him to get his naturalization record.


----------



## Thaicat

After all that matteo and matties...despite being born in italy..and wives marron and marriana ...appear to be two different people. I'm not sure now.

I know matties shows children of rose and joe..both of whom names are of johns siblings. So back to the drawing board.. unless im wrong and they have a further child and slightly westernised their names.

I guess the problem now will be..did matties come here and naturalise before he had Jon senior.. or did john come with him.
*sigh* 

How do I search the italian births..I have no idea of the town they are from. Hmm.


----------



## Thaicat

Just an add on BBC. The problem might seems...

Two issued records..Saying birth 1903 italy
john comelleri immigration 1904.
Wife fortuna
Son john camelleri jnr

John camilleri birth 1904 new jersey..
Both records hold wife fortuna (us citizen of italian parents) and john comilleri 

Nana gave us the spelling as comelleri but believes he came over as a child. Wow -.-
Two different johns ..? 

.


----------



## Thaicat

Yup..two different people.. Italian born john had his son in new jersey in 1926 so I believe I may have finally found him. I hope.


----------



## BBCWatcher

It's not uncommon for a son to have died in childhood (or infancy) and the next son to carry the same name, sometimes with a middle name added. It's also very common for the first born son to have the same name as his paternal grandfather. Take this all very slowly and carefully, as a researcher would, and don't jump to conclusions without evidence (and sometimes not even then).

As mentioned, the LDS family history centers have the biggest collection of Italian civil records outside Italy. Some of those records are online. Once you get some clues about where particular ancestors were born then I would check to see if the LDS Church has the particular records you need, then go search there. Ellis Island records are among the best sources for determining places of origin in Italy, but they're not always accurate either. U.S. naturalization records also tend to be fairly accurate but not 100% accurate. You can also sometimes get clues by looking at modern surname distributions in Italy, or perhaps a spouse came from a particular nearby commune in Italy, etc.


----------



## Thaicat

Im thinking a birth (LDS Records)in 1903 for john camilleri in italy. immigration 1904..... wife fortuna..child jon.

and a birth John comelleri 1904 (LDS) Nj/wife fortuna/son john..... are the same person possibly.. Maybe born on the boat (as my nan was going to canada) ?

I think mattieo(LDS -1940Census) 

matties (1940 census wife marron naturalised..ages 67/60 ..kids rose/joe aged 21/15 born new jersey) 

matteo camilleri (LDS) (war draft card 1918 as alien/wife marianna) 

are the same person. All from italy in 1873.


----------



## BBCWatcher

I'm skeptical of the birth aboard a ship idea. It was theoretically possible, but there's a simpler explanation. If those two individuals are the same then it's more likely the child was born in the U.S. and his birth (and thus citizenship) was documented in Italy.

Take a look at those birth records and ship manifest to see if you can figure out what's going on. They could be different people. Also, the marriage records (to Fortuna) should tell you whether that's the same or different people. If there were marriages in different places then they're two different families.

I do see that by 1928 the U.S. did not recognize U.S. citizenship for children born aboard U.S. flagged vessels unless the vessel was in U.S. territorial waters. Before 1928, I'm not sure.


----------



## Thaicat

The sons JC seniors ..birth year for both records is a year apart but in NJ as I say to jon and fortuna. 

I am not sure where to find marriages...I have been looking..but nothing. Surely if LDS ,ancestry etc don't have it...There is no online record.


----------



## BBCWatcher

At some point you'll likely be sending out records requests, usually via postal mail. Also bear in mind that many LDS records are not available online but are, instead, available on microfilm ordered for viewing via local family history centers.


----------



## Thaicat

Yes, I have been looking at a list for italians who arrived 1855-1900. I am not sure if it's me.. but nothings coming up.

I have ran searches for matteo in 1920 census but can not find him..despite Jon being born in 1904 ish.

My mum.is saying that it is possible he and his wife westernised their names (our italian family did) but also that john comelleri senior was born in italy in 1903 and arrived 1904 (since it is recorded as immigration) but died and she was already pregnant with a second child...the reason she said this...is because my fiancees nana said her dad was their only living child. 

Plausable ?
Without death info on matteo..census info from 1920...exact dates for john seniors birth/death. I'm not sure how to get papers for the birth of jon senior and thus info on matteo (as I would need decent amount of info for any naturalisation record)

I know I could get john juniors birth record, but that won't give me much info on his dad matteo...just his name. 

Crumbs, this is hard.


----------



## Thaicat

Ok... I now know that the census says that John senior naturalised by the time john junior was 4 years old.

I know he was born in italy, immgrated in 1904 and had john junior either in 25 or 26..I say this because john juniors daughter said he was born march1925..the census 1930 says he was 4 in 1930.

So questions is.. when did he naturalise..because he was 27 in 1930 with NA on census.


----------



## Thaicat

Question im stuck on now..is did the pre 1906 law apply ..as he arrived before 06. or post 06 law. 

Secondly, for either law how soon after filing your last paper...was one naturalized.? I noticed you had to be of LPR status and Im guessing that was given to minors on arrival rather than being a status you acquire at 18.


----------



## Thaicat

BBC if you see this.

Is it correct that denise was born in 1951 in usa..Her mum fran was born in usa in 1930 to an Italian man ...he naturalised in 1932...


Is she italian ?


----------



## BBCWatcher

Thaicat said:


> Is it correct that denise was born in 1951 in usa..Her mum fran was born in usa in 1930 to an Italian man ...he naturalised in 1932...
> Is she italian ?


Yes, if those are correct facts, and assuming Fran's father naturalized specifically as a U.S. citizen in 1932. Is that line easier to document?


----------



## BBCWatcher

First, you can't rely on the Census. It's often inaccurate.

Mostly what changed in 1906 is that Congress had the federal government take firmer control over naturalization procedures. Previously there was some greater variability in the administration. The normal process required petitioning, waiting at least 5 years, then naturalization (taking the oath). The 5 year petition/waiting period was waived for about an 18 month period during World War I specifically for military inductees.

If John Sr. arrived in 1904 the chance he naturalized before 1906 is remote, but an Italian consulate will typically want you to search the local court(s) where he lived -- and that's before or after 1906 -- in addition to USCIS and NARA. Once you find his naturalization record from any of these sources you're done. You don't need the same record from both USCIS and NARA. If John Sr. was still alive in 1940 but not naturalized then USCIS should have an alien registration card for him.

A well-timed naturalization is terrific, actually. Proving non-naturalization isn't quite so easy, though that alien registration card if it exists is helpful because it proves non-naturalization up to at least that point in time, which is generally enough.


----------



## Thaicat

Leonardo rizzuti italy 1898.
arrived 1922 with girlfriend Katarina from italy.

Francesca born 1930.

1924 they married in NY.

Leo naturalised.
1932 found declaration stamped 1935.
Not sure when katarina did.

Francesca had denise in 1951.
Denise had chris in 1971
Chris had daughter in 1991


----------



## Thaicat

Out of interest, I was under the impression the 1906 laws applied to those who arrived stateside before 1906. Or maybe it was the 5/3 yr period before 1906.

Also, I fingured john could petition his declaration before his 18th and naturalise. How long do the papers take...I see leos declaration stamped 1935 but date of 1932 on card..so must be 3yrs for him from declaration to naturalisation.

If john was a minor...im.sure 5yrs residency could be counted from before 18yrs old.


----------



## BBCWatcher

The age of majority was 21 at that time, not 18. If somebody naturalized before his/her 21st birthday that can be very good indeed. Italy's age of majority was 21 as late as 1975 when it was changed to 18. It's tougher for Italian minors to lose their citizenships.

Stop guessing.  Let the documents guide you. It's not too useful discussing hypotheticals. A U.S. naturalization record will tell you when he naturalized.


----------



## Thaicat

Ok  .

Thank you... should I continue with camilleri route, or could we do the rizzuti route ? 

Thanks for all your help


----------



## BBCWatcher

That Rizzuti line looks perfectly viable assuming Leonardo naturalized (meaning, took his oath of U.S. citizenship) after his daughter Francesca was born. You'd have to assemble all the relevant documents, make sure there are no significant discrepancies (and resolve the ones that are significant), and apply. Where would your fiancée apply -- at which Italian consulate?

By the way, let's be kind and say that Leonardo arrived with _his_ fiancée in 1922, an upgrade from "girlfriend." It's a reasonable assumption that if they sailed to America together they probably intended to get married, or at least the thought had occurred to them. Sure enough, they did get married.

The Camilleri line could be fine, but more information is required.

Sometimes it's difficult or impossible to locate particular documents making one line harder to demonstrate than another, or sometimes there are documentary discrepancies that are harder to resolve in a particular line. If you've got two or more possible lines, one reserves judgment until one has a clearer picture from the actual documentation. But if you've firmly established the basic facts of that Rizzuti line, yes, I'd go ahead and gather all the official documents in the correct formats for that line.


----------



## Thaicat

Oki coki...
Well nan denise..born 1951 is alive and gave us Francesca as her mum..and the d.o.b/death. As her mum moved in with her in the last ten years I assume Leo had died.

I researched Leo and found him named with katarina (catherine) on ancestry.com and it's his declaration/photo/stamped..place of birth etc.
It also gives his other kids names, I confirmed them with denise.

The declaration says 1932..no previous declarations..that he swears to renounce king of italy...two 'referencers' are given at bottom as known to him. It has a 1935 stamp. So I'm guessing he wasn't yet naturalised until after 1930. 

The declaration shows his details and marriage date/catherines and notes francesca as his child born 1930. Denise confirmed frans birth date/death and that they did indeed live in NY. (they also moved to FL at one point) 

My fiancee lives in New Jersey, so I'm not sure what we do next. She doesn't speak italian..to translate documents.
We also need to get Leos birth certificate..but where has that... I only have his town of birth not the office he was registered at.


----------



## Thaicat

Add on to the above. Denise is the grandmother 1951. usa

Fran great grandmother 1930 usa

Leo GG grandfather 1889. italy.


As that is passing from Great grandmother..can that be done? Fran can pass italian to her daughter denise ? and denise can pass to son chris and his daughter cortney ?


----------



## BBCWatcher

Sure, that line is perfectly fine. Are you thinking of the so-called "1948 rule"? That only means a child born before 1948 must have had an Italian citizen-father to be born an Italian citizen. Francesca was born in 1930 and had an Italian citizen-father, Leonardo -- no problem. Denise was born after 1947, so either an Italian citizen-father or citizen-mother would work, so her mother (Francesca) works -- again, no problem.

FYI, Italian courts are now routinely ruling that the 1948 constitution was retroactive in its effect, so even if there's a 1948 problem it's not insurmountable these days. But your fiancée and sibling have no such problem with that line.

You'll have to take a close look at when Leonardo took his final oath of citizenship, i.e. the effective date of naturalization. That 1932 date sounds like the date he petitioned. But either way, that's looking just fine -- it's after Francesca's birth in 1930. Leonardo emigrated to the U.S. after his 21st birthday, so no parent could have jeopardized his citizenship while he was a child. All looks good.

There is no Italian language requirement to apply for Italian citizenship recognition. Foreign language (non-Italian) documents should be professionally translated anyway. No problem.

Your fiancée will either be applying at the Italian consulate in New York or in Philadelphia depending on her county of residence in New Jersey. She would apply in Philadelphia if she lives in Atlantic, Burlington, Camden, Cape May, Cumberland, Gloucester, Ocean, or Salem county. Otherwise, it's New York. New York is among the pickiest consulates in the world, so hopefully it's Philadelphia. But both work.

Both of those consulates have approximately 12 month lead times for citizenship recognition appointments, so I would recommend she schedule an appointment now. She can always postpone her appointment if she's not ready, but even 6 months should provide plenty of time to gather and prepare her documentation. If other people in her line live in the same area and wish to apply together, that works fine. That's optional -- there's no requirement that other people in her line be recognized, and even if they change their minds they can pursue their own recognition applications later.

Here's a list of documents she'll need to gather for that line:

1. Birth, marriage, and death certificates for Leonardo and Katarina.
2. U.S. naturalization record for Leonardo. (NARA usually has the best certified copy, with a pretty red ribbon, so order one from them unless you already have an original copy.)
3. Birth, marriage, and death certificates for Francesca and her husband.
4. Birth and marriage certificates for Denise and her husband.
5. Birth and marriage certificates for Chris and his wife. (Based on the dates, I can safely assume that Chris's wife did not marry him before April 27, 1983. So Chris's wife does not qualify for immediate Italian citizenship recognition.)
6. Birth certificate for your fiancée. Marriage and your birth certificates also if your happy day has occurred by the time of her appointment.
7. Birth and (if applicable) marriage certificates for any siblings that are applying with your fiancée.
8. Personal declaration forms for applicants, living ascendants, and deceased ascendants. (Declaration forms are available on the consulate's Web site.) These forms should be signed in the presence of the consular officer, preferably -- and certainly by applicants. (Otherwise notarization and apostilles are necessary.) No such forms are required for non-line spouses.
9. Proof of identity for all applicants (i.e. U.S. passports).
10. Proof of residence for all applicants (e.g. a recent electricity bill in his/her name with current address plus state-issued ID with current address).

There is no fee to apply, though it does cost some money to gather and prepare all the documents. I think Philadelphia and New York effectively charge a small fee to make an appointment, though, since they use an appointment service.

I'm assuming no one got divorced in this line. If that assumption is incorrect, a few more documents are needed. All non-Italian birth, marriage, and death certificates must be in long form, must have apostilles, and must be professionally translated into Italian. (Gabriella Bozza Einaga is a popular translator if you're looking for one.) For example, marriage certificates must contain the names of the parents of the bride and groom. (In some places this means obtaining both the marriage license and certificate, for example.) Apostilles do not need to be translated, so translation can occur in parallel with obtaining apostilles. U.S. naturalization records do not need to be translated or apostilled when presented to an Italian consulate in the U.S. Discrepancies among documents typically need to be addressed and corrected (if possible), or workarounds found. Names, birth dates, and other particulars should match for the same individual. If they don't, some more work is possible depending on the discrepancy.

Note that if Leonardo anglicized his name when he naturalized, and that name change was recorded in his naturalization record, and that anglicized name appears elsewhere (his marriage and death certificates, Francesca's documents, etc.) then that's not a discrepancy -- that's perfectly fine.

Denise and any of her living children, and Chris and any of his living children can all apply. If they're living in difference consular jurisdictions they'd have to apply separately, providing separate documents relevant to their particular applications. Hopefully everyone who wants to apply is living in the same general area, within the same consular jurisdiction.

If Denise and/or Chris apply first in a different consular jurisdiction, it's then possible to obtain their Italian records -- yes, everybody who's a recognized Italian citizen gets records, including birth records, saved in Italy -- then use those as the basis for the next generation's application(s) elsewhere.


----------



## Thaicat

Yes I believe denise fran got divorced from john. 

I am not sure about denise.
Chris never married courtneys mum.
Denise lives P.A as does her son chris.

Cortney lives in Brick township.In ocean county. So P.A ?
Also do you have off hand average price of translator ?


----------



## Thaicat

Ok..I guess my longest wait will be the naturalisation record copy.

He was naturalised 1935.Southern district NY. Records on ancestry have it as: 1882-1944 

Iv'e been looking where to get a copy, but it's confusing. 
Also, I have the town he was born in...where can I get his birth cert ?

Thank you so much BBC


----------



## BBCWatcher

NARA's New York office has those particular naturalization records. It costs only $25 for a certified copy.

To request a birth record from Italy send a request by regular postal mail to the commune where he was born. If you know the name of the commune I can probably find the address for you, but the general format is roughly like this:

Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Comune di (name of commune)
(street), (street number)
(commune name) (provincial code) (postal code)
ITALIA

There's no fee, though bear in mind communes can be slow or even non-responsive. A self-addressed, stamped envelope is also nice to send, though getting Italian postage stamps isn't too easy. Some people like to drop a 5 euro bill in the envelope, but that's very optional. Your request should be in Italian, and it's very helpful to supply a copy of the record from the LDS records (for example) so they can more rapidly locate what you need. Don't forget to get Katarina's available records from Italy, too. If she's from the same commune that can be part of the same request.


----------



## Thaicat

Ah I see...

I have the town I think..Caltabellotta..for both leo and cath.

I guess I need to request birth.death.marriage from each area vitals office?

Where do we get apostilles on documents ? And how do I find the lady you suggested.
You are awfully helpful!! I can't thank you enough.!!


----------



## Thaicat

Oh and we called for a through the post copy of naturalisation record. Do we need to take it somewhere to be notarized?


----------

