# Tax residence



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

So, my parents, who have lived here for 18 months, have been trying, with the help of a Spanish Tax lawyer, to compete their asset declarations form. He told them that as they are not tax resident in Spain they do not need to complete the declaration. €50 thank you very much. My understanding is that as they have been here in excess of 183 days they 'are' tax residents even though, on the advice of this lawyer, they are still paying tax in UK (pensions only). He went on to say they had nothing to worry about as most expats never bother to become tax residents in Spain and they have nothing to worry about. I think his advice is way off the mark but I'd be grateful for the views of everyone on here who understands this stuff. Thanks....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> So, my parents, who have lived here for 18 months, have been trying, with the help of a Spanish Tax lawyer, to compete their asset declarations form. He told them that as they are not tax resident in Spain they do not need to complete the declaration. €50 thank you very much. My understanding is that as they have been here in excess of 183 days they 'are' tax residents even though, on the advice of this lawyer, they are still paying tax in UK (pensions only). He went on to say they had nothing to worry about as most expats never bother to become tax residents in Spain and they have nothing to worry about. I think his advice is way off the mark but I'd be grateful for the views of everyone on here who understands this stuff. Thanks....


he's wrong - & unfortunately many many Spanish 'experts' have told expats the same over the years


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

I wonder if one needs a 'tax reference or ID' to submit the 720 form? In other words, must already be known to hacienda.

If so, then they are stuffed without first going down that route.


Personally, I would persevere and insist on going the 'legal' route.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

thrax said:


> So, my parents, who have lived here for 18 months, have been trying, with the help of a Spanish Tax lawyer, to compete their asset declarations form. He told them that as they are not tax resident in Spain they do not need to complete the declaration. €50 thank you very much. My understanding is that as they have been here in excess of 183 days they 'are' tax residents even though, on the advice of this lawyer, they are still paying tax in UK (pensions only). He went on to say they had nothing to worry about as most expats never bother to become tax residents in Spain and they have nothing to worry about. I think his advice is way off the mark but I'd be grateful for the views of everyone on here who understands this stuff. Thanks....


He's right that most expats never bother to become tax residents in Spain but that's about it.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

It's potentially more complicated then the 183 day rule. 

But if they are really living in Spain. Don't have a home available to them abroad. Have made a definitive break with their former home country.

Assuming the above they are almost certainly tax resident.

Okay I found this

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortfor...-name=&location=26&origin=http://www.hmrc.gov

Glancing at it. Fill it in. If the UK gives you the certificate then you're okay. If they don't you won't have any reason to believe you aren't tax resident.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I pay tax in the U.K., however the Boss of the tax place here, told us last year that because we are here 6 months or over, we need by law to compete a tax return, even though we do not have any income here.

So we make an appointment and one of the employees in the tax office does it for us, takes ten minutes and we just sign the form.

I reckon you need a new lawyer.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> So, my parents, who have lived here for 18 months, have been trying, with the help of a Spanish Tax lawyer, to compete their asset declarations form. He told them that as they are not tax resident in Spain they do not need to complete the declaration. €50 thank you very much. My understanding is that as they have been here in excess of 183 days they 'are' tax residents even though, on the advice of this lawyer, they are still paying tax in UK (pensions only). He went on to say they had nothing to worry about as most expats never bother to become tax residents in Spain and they have nothing to worry about. I think his advice is way off the mark but I'd be grateful for the views of everyone on here who understands this stuff. Thanks....


As far as I understand it the people in hacienda are legally supposed to help you fill in your tax forms and do it right, so my advice is always to go there with all your data and see what they come up with. I suppose the language could be an obstacle, but you could give it a go. That way you're not paying a lawyer who it seems would quite likely not know what the law is, you would presumably be doing it right, and you wouldn't have the lawyers fee to pay...


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

I have read much about the 183 day rule but I also read on the website thinkspain.com that you become tax resident the day you arrive in Spain if it is your intention to live in Spain, or show that intention.

I also remember somebody saying on this Forum that when you become tax resident it is for the whole year, i.e. backdated to 1st January. This something I need to clarify with a tax adviser as it is my intention to take a long term let from September and a long term let is surely an intention to live in Spain. I find it difficult to believe that I will be taxed on my income when I was not even living in Spain and surely the UK government will feel they are due that tax?

From Hot Topics - Residence & Tax - Residency .... You will become resident for tax purposes in Spain if: 
You spend more than 183 days in Spain during one calendar year. You become liable whether or not you take out a formal residence permit (Residencia). These days do not have to be consecutive. You do not become resident for tax purposes until the morning of the 184th day. Temporary absences from Spain are ignored for the purpose of the 183-day rule unless it can be proved that the individual is habitually resident in another country for more than 183 days in a calendar year, 

.......... or You arrive in Spain with an intention to reside there indefinitely. You will then be tax-resident from the day after you arrive. Obtaining a residence permit is evidence of an intention to stay, and will count against any claim that you are not liable for Spanish tax.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Its one of those things where there is so much conflicting information around its no wonder theres confusion.

From the tax gestors lips ..... it's 183 days in one tax year, therefore for example if you were to spend 12 months from July 2013 through to June 2014 in the UK, you would not be tax resident for those two years in Spain. If you were to spend unconnected periods which amount to over the 6 months per tax year then also you would not be a tax resident. However the onus is on you, (should you be challenged) to prove that you havent been here and it helps if you have a home in the UK when you are doing that. Keeping ferry tickets, airline tickets, credit card receipts etc etc all add to the "proof". If you are already tax resident in Spain then if "deregistering" you need to complete modelo 030 for the hacienda, and if you own a property you will be due to pay non residents tax 
For information, its cost us more in non residents tax this year than it has in residents tax for every year we have been here


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Its one of those things where there is so much conflicting information around its no wonder theres confusion.
> 
> From the tax gestors lips ..... it's 183 days in one tax year, therefore for example if you were to spend 12 months from July 2013 through to June 2014 in the UK, you would not be tax resident for those two years in Spain. If you were to spend unconnected periods which amount to over the 6 months per tax year then also you would not be a tax resident. However the onus is on you, (should you be challenged) to prove that you havent been here and it helps if you have a home in the UK when you are doing that. Keeping ferry tickets, airline tickets, credit card receipts etc etc all add to the "proof". If you are already tax resident in Spain then if "deregistering" you need to complete modelo 030 for the hacienda, and if you own a property you will be due to pay non residents tax
> For information, its cost us more in non residents tax this year than it has in residents tax for every year we have been here


Thank you, although I am still a little confused. I will have a home in the UK but I will not be returning for at least a year as it will be on long term let, or I may sell. I will be living in Spain. I am not trying to avoid being tax resident I am just trying to understand when I am tax resident. I thought it would be for all, or part of, 2013 (not 2012) but what I read on the link I posted cast doubts in my mind. I do not want to sell my house in UK this year only to find it is liable for CGT in Spain.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

chris&vicky said:


> Thank you, although I am still a little confused. I will have a home in the UK but I will not be returning for at least a year as it will be on long term let, or I may sell. I will be living in Spain. I am not trying to avoid being tax resident I am just trying to understand when I am tax resident. I thought it would be for all, or part of, 2013 (not 2012) but what I read on the link I posted cast doubts in my mind. I do not want to sell my house in UK this year only to find it is liable for CGT in Spain.


Well, in effect you are sort of doing what I am doing. Ive looked all ways and as far as I can see the only way of not being tax resident here is by limiting your time here to the required limit. Of course, the big question is always, how do they know if you are here or not, and I guess if you think hard you will figure ways for that. 

Dont use Spanish credit cards here
Get your Euros in the UK and spend cash here
Keep the outgoing UK Spain ferry / air ticket
Have someone use your UK credit card in the UK from time to time

I wouldnt condone this of course, but it turns your mind to thinking doesnt it

I'm pretty sure that I will end up keeping both properties, but to be honest I doubt there would be any CGT anyway, and it does beg the question how are the Hacienda going to value a property for CGT in the UK?

We've discussed the tax situation before and I guess al that can really be said with certainty is that the future is uncertain


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Well, in effect you are sort of doing what I am doing. Ive looked all ways and as far as I can see the only way of not being tax resident here is by limiting your time here to the required limit. Of course, the big question is always, how do they know if you are here or not, and I guess if you think hard you will figure ways for that.
> 
> Dont use Spanish credit cards here
> Get your Euros in the UK and spend cash here
> ...


I am not sure what you mean by " you are sort of doing what I am doing" as I said I am not looking to avoid being tax resident and I am going to live in Spain. I am not looking to limit my time in Spain to avoid being tax resident. I just want to pay my tax, but only what I have to pay, no more.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

chris&vicky said:


> I am not sure what you mean by " you are sort of doing what I am doing" as I said I am not looking to avoid being tax resident and I am going to live in Spain. I am not looking to limit my time in Spain to avoid being tax resident. I just want to pay my tax, but only what I have to pay, no more.


Good on you. Clearly, the only way is Essex!!!!!


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

We arrived in Spain in October last, to live in Spain permanently. We knew that we would not be tax resident in Spain for the 2012 tax year. We also knew that our 183 days would pass at the beginning of April this year. 

It would be benificial for us to registered for tax here asap in order to submit our "Spain individual (FD9)" forms in order to have the tax burden of OAP pension to be transferred to Spain, and have our full personal UK tax allowance to offset against our "Government" occupational pensions.

We decided to get some professional help and duly approached a company recommended to us by our Post Room people.
We were surprised to learn that an application to be registered was not necessarily automatically accepted 

The gestor thought that we were probably applying a little too early. He did however ask us for the required documents and completed FD9's and submitted them on our behalf.

Once we receive the FD9's back from Hacienda we will just need to send them to HMRC and then we are sorted.

It has been nearly 3 weeks now and the forms have still not been returned by Hacienda so watch this space.

What is surprising to us, although with all the red tape we have encountered thus far it shouldn't have, is that a legal requirement to be registered for tax once you have fulfilled the "tax residency" status may not be accepted on a whim!

We will keep you updated on our progress.


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

stevesainty said:


> We will keep you updated on our progress.


Thank you for your post. It is nice to hear from somebody who has done it all before. I find the whole thing a little scary. I just want to do the right thing. I want to find a good gestor and not sure where to look. I guess I have plenty of time yet as I do not move until September. I would be interested to hear how you get on. Regards


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

stevesainty said:


> The gestor thought that we were probably applying a little too early. He did however ask us for the required documents and completed FD9's and submitted them on our behalf.
> 
> Once we receive the FD9's back from Hacienda we will just need to send them to HMRC and then we are sorted.
> 
> ...


Sorry to rain on your parade, but your gestor is right, you'll be waiting a while, about another 15 months to be exact.

Hacienda will not sign the FD9 ( in fact nowadays they don't sign them, they issue you with certificate of fiscal residence), until you have submitted a return, which will be June 2014, and after allowing a couple of months to check you will be able to apply for the certificate. I think in fact you can apply online now.

I did the same as you about 2 years ago. It seemed mad to me that, there I was in tax office saying I wanted to pay tax, but they wouldn't sign the form. So I continued paying tax on my income in the UK, until I for the Cerificate last October. HMRC say they you can just send a letter with the certificate, but I actually filed in another form, so they had all the info, and attached the certificate. They processed it in about 4 weeks, and I got a refund for the previous year from them, and a refund from my pension payer for the current year as HMRC issued an NT tax code.

The downside is that to get certificate, you have to submit a return, and pay the tax due, but it is not a problem to get a refund from HMRC, and they will also give you split year treatment, if you ask for it.


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## RoyD (May 6, 2008)

Hi 
I do not know it is appropriate for me to ask this here so if I am in the wrong place please let me know.
My wife(Swedish) and I (American) are permanent residents in Uruguay. For the next few years we want to spend part of our time(less than 6 mos) in Spain so we want a long term let in Spain to put our furniture in so we can return and not hassle looking for a new place every year. The rest of the year, every year, will be with family in Sweden, friends in Switzerland and Italy and some time in Uruguay. We will keep an address and our bank account in Uruguay. Besides keeping records is there anything else we should do to keep on the right side of the Spanish authorities. -


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