# I am currently seeking advice.



## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

We are planning to buy a property before the end of this year. We hope to develop it into self-catering/ B & B as well as a home. I am currently working full time in a remote position and have the freedom to work from anywhere. My husband is self-employed and runs his own business. At the moment, we plan to remain in the UK, once the restrictions are lifted and everyone is safe, we plan to travel and intend to spend equal amounts of time in Spain and the UK developing the business and working remotely.

I was wondering what our options are in regard to visas and plans to eventually live full time in Spain. I have 3 children under the age of 18 however my son turns 18 next year. My older 2 are planning to go to Uni/ College in Spain and my youngest would be in high school.We are looking in around Valencia. I am aware of the golden visa however I was wondering what other options are available to us.

Thanks so much for your time


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Miana said:


> We are planning to buy a property before the end of this year. We hope to develop it into self-catering/ B & B as well as a home. I am currently working full time in a remote position and have the freedom to work from anywhere. My husband is self-employed and runs his own business. At the moment, we plan to remain in the UK, once the restrictions are lifted and everyone is safe, we plan to travel and intend to spend equal amounts of time in Spain and the UK developing the business and working remotely.
> 
> I was wondering what our options are in regard to visas and plans to eventually live full time in Spain. I have 3 children under the age of 18 however my son turns 18 next year. My older 2 are planning to go to Uni/ College in Spain and my youngest would be in high school.We are looking in around Valencia. I am aware of the golden visa however I was wondering what other options are available to us.
> 
> Thanks so much for your time


Welcome 

There are various different visas - all listed here Visas (FAQ)


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Note you may have difficulty in including an 18 year old as a dependent in which case he will have to apply for a visa in his own right, for the vast majority I'd say that would likely prove an impossible ask.


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

MataMata said:


> Note you may have difficulty in including an 18 year old as a dependent in which case he will have to apply for a visa in his own right, for the vast majority I'd say that would likely prove an impossible ask.


Why impossible? What if he is coming along to help out with the property and the running of the B&B?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Miana said:


> We are planning to buy a property before the end of this year. We hope to develop it into self-catering/ B & B as well as a home. I am currently working full time in a remote position and have the freedom to work from anywhere. My husband is self-employed and runs his own business. At the moment, we plan to remain in the UK, once the restrictions are lifted and everyone is safe, we plan to travel and intend to spend equal amounts of time in Spain and the UK developing the business and working remotely.
> 
> I was wondering what our options are in regard to visas and plans to eventually live full time in Spain. I have 3 children under the age of 18 however my son turns 18 next year. My older 2 are planning to go to Uni/ College in Spain and my youngest would be in high school.We are looking in around Valencia. I am aware of the golden visa however I was wondering what other options are available to us.
> 
> Thanks so much for your time


Straight talking: if you and your family do not already speak Spanish you are looking at probably a really tough time. I know people will says live your dream etc, but reality is different. If you cant speak Spanish how are you going to get a driving licence? How are you going to help your kids at Spanish schools. How will you compete with all the Spanish B and Bs?


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## trotter58 (Feb 8, 2017)

Miana said:


> Why impossible? What if he is coming along to help out with the property and the running of the B&B?


It should be possible. He could apply for autonomo as a self employed cleaner, handyman etc and you could pay him to do the required work in the B&B. He would need to pay into the Spanish social security & tax but he would get healthcare.
Or you could register as a Spanish company and give him a contract of employment, quoting skills that are rare in Spain. This would again give him healthcare

There may be other ways but you will end up subsidising his move to Spain


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

I am of latin decent and therefore brushing up on my Spanish, I also speak Cantonese and am learning German ( may or may not be helpful) My kids are learning spanish at the moment and seem to be picking it up quite well. Can you tell me more about the Spanish B&Bs, we have travelled to Spain every year for a month - apart from last year and this year and we have always rented through the online apps so not really had any interactions with the owners. Is it very competitive?


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

trotter58 said:


> It should be possible. He could apply for autonomo as a self employed cleaner, handyman etc and you could pay him to do the required work in the B&B. He would need to pay into the Spanish social security & tax but he would get healthcare.
> Or you could register as a Spanish company and give him a contract of employment, quoting skills that are rare in Spain. This would again give him healthcare
> 
> There may be other ways but you will end up subsidising his move to Spain





Miana said:


> I am of latin decent and therefore brushing up on my Spanish, I also speak Cantonese and am learning German ( may or may not be helpful) My kids are learning spanish at the moment and seem to be picking it up quite well. Can you tell me more about the Spanish B&Bs, we have travelled to Spain every year for a month - apart from last year and this year and we have always rented through the online apps so not really had any interactions with the owners. Is it very competitive?





trotter58 said:


> It should be possible. He could apply for autonomo as a self employed cleaner, handyman etc and you could pay him to do the required work in the B&B. He would need to pay into the Spanish social security & tax but he would get healthcare.
> Or you could register as a Spanish company and give him a contract of employment, quoting skills that are rare in Spain. This would again give him healthcare
> 
> There may be other ways but you will end up subsidising his move to Spain


 I though that may have been a possibility . . .


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I think the language issue is more of a problem for the kids going to school/unversity in Spain. The younger kids will almost certainly have to go to an international school, which costs money. I've noticed more degrees in Spain being offered in English these days, but the choice will still be quite limited for the oldest child. And even if he/she does find a suitable course, the chances for social integration will be limited. Most of the other students will speak Valenciano or Spanish among themselves, and many will be living with their parents. Generally university life in Spain isn't quite the same "experience" you get in the UK, especially if everyone talks in a language you barely understand.

So I think it would be a lot simpler if you held off permanently moving to Spain untill all the kids have finished school, and maybe attending uni in the UK.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

It good that you have dome Spanish and also that your kids are learning. However, you have a good sized young family and you have to hit the ground running. You dont say what ages your younger two children are but they sound as if they are already in secondary as you are talking of university. Again being honest if your kids are not fluent in Spanish at this stage they will not complete a school education and will not get to university. My kid is 15. He has been here since 10. He has gone to Spanish state schools. He had no Spanish on arrival but his mother speaks Spanish. He does very well in secondary and passes with 9 and 10s notas. There is no way he will be able to get good enough grades in Bacherlerato even though he speaks and writes Spanish. It simple is never going to be without errors. That said it is stupid for him to remain here. He will obtain so much more by studying English and if he remains in Spain past 2026 he will be treated as an international student and subject to huge fees in UK.


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

kaipa said:


> It good that you have dome Spanish and also that your kids are learning. However, you have a good sized young family and you have to hit the ground running. You dont say what ages your younger two children are but they sound as if they are already in secondary as you are talking of university. Again being honest if your kids are not fluent in Spanish at this stage they will not complete a school education and will not get to university. My kid is 15. He has been here since 10. He has gone to Spanish state schools. He had no Spanish on arrival but his mother speaks Spanish. He does very well in secondary and passes with 9 and 10s notas. There is no way he will be able to get good enough grades in Bacherlerato even though he speaks and writes Spanish. It simple is never going to be without errors. That said it is stupid for him to remain here. He will obtain so much more by studying English and if he remains in Spain past 2026 he will be treated as an international student and subject to huge fees in UK.


Yes, my younger 2 are in secondary school, Y8 & Y10 at the moment. I know there is a lot to think about. Originally my husband is from the UK but I am not. I am mixed race and was a Hongkong Citizen. I grew up in different countries in Asia as my parents travelled for work so I understand moving for someone quite young has it's ups and downs. We moved from Asia over 10 years ago, so I know there is an adjustment period. There is plenty to think about!!


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Miana said:


> We are planning to buy a property before the end of this year. We hope to develop it into self-catering/ B & B as well as a home. I am currently working full time in a remote position and have the freedom to work from anywhere. My husband is self-employed and runs his own business. At the moment, we plan to remain in the UK, once the restrictions are lifted and everyone is safe, we plan to travel and intend to spend equal amounts of time in Spain and the UK developing the business and working remotely.
> 
> I was wondering what our options are in regard to visas and plans to eventually live full time in Spain. I have 3 children under the age of 18 however my son turns 18 next year. My older 2 are planning to go to Uni/ College in Spain and my youngest would be in high school.We are looking in around Valencia. I am aware of the golden visa however I was wondering what other options are available to us.
> 
> Thanks so much for your time


Cannot give you any advice regarding the children. But I can in regards to the B&B as this was something we looked at a few years ago.

Im not trying to destroy your plans here either, so here goes.

1. Over the last year the whole of the worldwide tourist industry has gone into meltdown. In fact its been non existent and will maybe take a few years to get back to 80% of what it was in 2019.
2. As you will require a visa to get here now, you will need a very detailed business plan and a ton of money behind you to even get off the ground.
3. Unless you are going to buy an existing B&B (thats possible now as there should be many available at a low price) you will need to have it in running condition with all the licences that are required before you apply for the visa to come here (so in effect you will be spending, oh lets say €150,000 before you even start). 
4. Licences. Ok you will need various including a tourist licence (means you have to offer a certain level of accommodation), Want a bar? another licence. Food? and again but you will need a kitchen up to a certain level, food handling and prep, health and safety etc (just the same as the Uk really)
5. You can only live in the same building now as long as you have a separate private entrance and your part is private from the B&B (we looked at a large house with an outbuilding to convert into our accomodation)
6. Choose the area carefully, very very carefully. Book holidays in the kind of place you would like to own. Talk to the owners and above all. DO NOT JUST COME HERE IN THE SUMMER. If you are in a tourist area, what is going to set you apart from all the others? If you are going for the retreat, up in the mountains etc, why has nobody else done it? These are just some of the 200 or so questions you should ask yourself.
7. If this is going to be your only income, you will just about get by. We spoke to around 10 owners, all of whom said the profit was less than a full wage if they had carried on working. Also the autonomo (self employed route) means you both will have to pay around €300 a month EACH. You could go the route where only one pays but it means legally you are the only one allowed to work. 
8. Ok all the above gets sorted, you are here and its covering its costs. What happens if we have another pandemic (business insurance probably wont cover this)? If you don't continually satisfy the visa requirements (i.e. business goes bankrupt) you can be removed from the country.

Not a nice list Im sorry, but me and the wife are still in touch with some of the people we met a couple of years ago, one has abandoned his dream and fled back to the UK. Another has been spending the time over the last year, building up a business in a different direction (she still has the B&B but its closed for now). The one we are in constant communication with was lucky, she has passing trade and is cooking take away food and drinks. But that required her to get different licences to do so. Once she reopens she is going to keep the kitchen running (previously she was self catering only)

Visa wise I can't help either, but your choice will be limited (and Im not sure if to get a business one you will need to hire local labour).

Don't give up on your dream but to do it properly, I think all of your kids need to have left home or at least be in higher education before you do this. Otherwise you wont be able to commit 100% to the business. But that could be a good thing, it will allow you to come here for extended holidays so you can find the right place.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Miana said:


> I am of latin decent and therefore brushing up on my Spanish, I also speak Cantonese and am learning German ( may or may not be helpful) My kids are learning spanish at the moment and seem to be picking it up quite well. Can you tell me more about the Spanish B&Bs, we have travelled to Spain every year for a month - apart from last year and this year and we have always rented through the online apps so not really had any interactions with the owners. Is it very competitive?


Regarding the kids in school/college, you say they are learning and picking it up quite well. Are you thinking of using the public or private education system?

There are two things you need to keep in mind here. Firstly, unless they are very young (under 5 or 6) then they will have to be fluent if they are to enter into the state schooling/education system. Anything less will put them at a significant disadvantage in terms of picking things up. I speak Spanish quite well, I won´t say "fluent" because that´s a big word but I consider myself a high level (married to Spaniard, work for Spanish company where everything I do at mid-management level is in Spanish both locally and internationally) but even still, in large groups or presentations, when they really get going I sometimes miss little details (that could easily be the little details that are so important if we are talking of education). Kids in the Spanish system need to be to a very high level to get the full benefit from their classes.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the curriculum is far different here, so if they are mid way through their schooling they will find it very hard to just "pick up where they left off". Even the exam systems are different. A kid in high school, even if fluent would simply not be able (in my opinion) to just come over and fit into the public system. 

Of course there are international schools which follow british curriculum, have native teachers / spanish teachers in balance and most will prepare the kids for both Spanish exams and the entry exams and requirements for those wishing to get into higher education here in Spain. But obviously that comes at a steep monthly cost, especially as they get older.


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

You have all brought up many very interesting thoughts and I can definitely understand the wide range of issues that it raises whilst they are still in school. It is a big decisions and I am very grateful for all the different aspects/ thoughts that have been shared - this is very helpful and I certainly am thinking about everything that has been mentioned. I suppose it is striking a balance between achieving dream and managing reality. . . .


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## Max Rigger (Aug 2, 2020)

I live in the UK but work offshore and joined the forum to find out what I needed to do to buy a home in the next year or two for my mid fifties retirement in fifteen years time and the people here have been very good at answering questions and there is a ton of stuff to read in past threads so Miana its well worth your time reading through past posts. You won't like some of the information offered but it could stop you making a costly mistake in the future.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

trotter58 said:


> Or you could register as a Spanish company and give him a contract of employment, quoting skills that are rare in Spain.


You can't claim skills, without proof of them.

Not trying to destroy your dream just making sure your eyes are fully open!


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Miana said:


> You have all brought up many very interesting thoughts and I can definitely understand the wide range of issues that it raises whilst they are still in school. It is a big decisions and I am very grateful for all the different aspects/ thoughts that have been shared - this is very helpful and I certainly am thinking about everything that has been mentioned. I suppose it is striking a balance between achieving dream and managing reality. . . .





MataMata said:


> Not trying to destroy your dream just making sure your eyes are fully open!


As MataMata said, it´s really not about deflating anyone of destroying a dream but sadly, so many people see the parts they want to see (sun, sea, relaxing lifestyle etc) but sadly, so many come over with a chunk of cash, the cash runs out and then they are left with no choice to go back home. Or, they come and the reality hits and they end up working harder then ever just to make ends meat. This applies especially to people who have ideas to start a business - usually end up earning a fraction of what they predicted and working double what they expected. 

The moral of the story is not to give up on dreams, but to learn every single aspect and plan accordingly. Think about every aspect of your life, take the negative feedback as a constructive in terms of things to consider and plan for and then... work to make your dream a true reality rather than just a dream.

I think that pretty much every aspect of your plans can be answered on this forum. There is always someone with advice and most of it on here is good advice so don´t be afraid to ask!  Good luck


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Miana said:


> I suppose it is striking a balance between achieving dream and managing reality. . . .


Yeah, I think if you feel like people were coming at you a bit hard, it was just trying to make you understand that reality. We all seem to start out with the assumption "I'm a smart, successful person from a developed country, I should be able to move to another developed country fairly easily." Maybe it's not something we say out loud, but it is there. But the reality is that there is a mountain of rules and red tape and a lot of other people trying to do the same thing. Sometimes that "reality" can be a slap in the face, but then some people kind of need that.

My wife and I started trying to figure out how to do this over 10 years ago. We figured out that the best route would be for my wife to claim an EU passport because of her great great grandfather. We've been working on that for more than 5 years now and are just now finally have all our ducks in a row and should be able to move next year. #ymmv Is it worth it? For us it certainly is, but it hasn't been easy. I suspect that you have a lot of research to do and some decisions to make. Best of luck.


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

I'd love to hear more about the lineage experience - I have both Polish and Welsh/Irish in my tree, immigrated to the US in my great-grandparents time...


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

CltFlyboy said:


> I'd love to hear more about the lineage experience - I have both Polish and Welsh/Irish in my tree, immigrated to the US in my great-grandparents time...


As far as I know, the key part of deriving Irish citizenship through descent is that your great-grandparent was still Irish citizen at the time of your relevant grandparent's birth, i.e. they hadn't given up Irish citizenship because of naturalisation as US citizen prior to the birth. This is often hard to establish because of lack of documentation. Welsh (British) citizenship can't be transmitted more than one generation, i.e. you require British parent, and Britain is now out of EU. Polish I don't know, but I seem to recall that descent from grandparent was possible.


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Joppa said:


> As far as I know, the key part of deriving Irish citizenship through descent is that your great-grandparent was still Irish citizen at the time of your relevant grandparent's birth, i.e. they hadn't given up Irish citizenship because of naturalisation as US citizen prior to the birth. This is often hard to establish because of lack of documentation.


Thanks Joppa. If that's the case then I need to get on the ball fast. Nobody here has traced our family tree precisely, but I do know that my grandmother used to tell me that my great-grandfather was an immigrant, she called him a "black Mick". Oh how I'd love to be able to use our heritage to get out of the US!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

CltFlyboy said:


> Thanks Joppa. If that's the case then I need to get on the ball fast. Nobody here has traced our family tree precisely, but I do know that my grandmother used to tell me that my great-grandfather was an immigrant, she called him a "black ****". Oh how I'd love to be able to use our heritage to get out of the US!


You need to establish that when your grandmother was born, your great-grandfather had not been naturalised as US citizen, because in those days US didn't permit dual nationality and every aspirant for naturalisation first had to renounce their original citizenship. For example, if you can find your great-grandfather's naturalisation document and it's dated after your grandmother's birth, then there is a prima facie evidence that he was still Irish (or British prior to 1922) citizen born in the Island of Ireland. Then you require your great-grandfather's birth and marriage certificates, and birth and marriage certificates for your grandmother and your relevant parent and your own birth certificate. Irish consulate isn't currently accepting any new application for citizenship through Foreign Birth Register because of Covid, and when they do start processing, the backlog would run to several years.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Joppa said:


> You need to establish that when your grandmother was born, your great-grandfather had not been naturalised as US citizen, because in those days US didn't permit dual nationality and every aspirant for naturalisation first had to renounce their original citizenship. For example, if you can find your great-grandfather's naturalisation document and it's dated after your grandmother's birth, then there is a prima facie evidence that he was still Irish (or British prior to 1922) citizen born in the Island of Ireland. Then you require your great-grandfather's birth and marriage certificates, and birth and marriage certificates for your grandmother and your relevant parent and your own birth certificate. Irish consulate isn't currently accepting any new application for citizenship through Foreign Birth Register because of Covid, and when they do start processing, the backlog would run to several years.


Bad news. I have just found out that unless one of your parents had put their name on the Foreign Birth Register prior to your birth, you can't become Irish citizen.


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## Miana (Nov 4, 2020)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Yeah, I think if you feel like people were coming at you a bit hard, it was just trying to make you understand that reality. We all seem to start out with the assumption "I'm a smart, successful person from a developed country, I should be able to move to another developed country fairly easily." Maybe it's not something we say out loud, but it is there. But the reality is that there is a mountain of rules and red tape and a lot of other people trying to do the same thing. Sometimes that "reality" can be a slap in the face, but then some people kind of need that.
> 
> My wife and I started trying to figure out how to do this over 10 years ago. We figured out that the best route would be for my wife to claim an EU passport because of her great great grandfather. We've been working on that for more than 5 years now and are just now finally have all our ducks in a row and should be able to move next year. #ymmv Is it worth it? For us it certainly is, but it hasn't been easy. I suspect that you have a lot of research to do and some decisions to make. Best of luck.


I didn't feel like people were coming at me hard. I moved from HK to live in the UK with my husband and I grew up in lots of different places as my parents travelled for work. I come from a multicultural background and not originally from the UK. So I understand there rules and different aspects from a immigration side of things - I am just grateful that people are kind enough to share their thought and opinions, it creates a wider perspective and highlights things that I may not have thought of . ..


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Thanks Joppa, I appreciate the knowledge as always. I'd rather hear bad news fast instead of spending time thinking of possibilities, I'm a practical guy. Appreciate you!


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## Phil Squares (Jan 13, 2017)

Joppa said:


> Bad news. I have just found out that unless one of your parents had put their name on the Foreign Birth Register prior to your birth, you can't become Irish citizen.


Not quite true. As long as your grandparents were born in Ireland, you can use one of them to claim Irish citizenship. If they happened to add your parents to the FBR, that makes it easier. In your list of documents required, you will also need the death certificates for every person you are using.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Phil Squares said:


> Not quite true. As long as your grandparents were born in Ireland, you can use one of them to claim Irish citizenship. If they happened to add your parents to the FBR, that makes it easier. In your list of documents required, you will also need the death certificates for every person you are using.


The OP was going to rely on Irish-born great-grandfather, in which case his parent must have been added to Foreign Birth Register before his birth. This is because of the changes made to the Irish law in 1986, when citizenship only starts from the date of registration, and not backdated to their birth as it used to happen. In case of Irish-born grandparent, you are correct.


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## Phil Squares (Jan 13, 2017)

You are somewhat muddling things up. First of all, if the parent is registered on the FBR properly, then, the parent would be used to claim citizenship. Because the parent is legally an Irish citizen. If the parent isn't registered, that is the end of it. If you read the DFA rules, you will note, you can't go back past your grandparents in the family tree.


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## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Best case scenario is that my grandparents (or theirs) came over, but my parents didn't get put on the FBR I'm sure. Another angle is the other side of the family is Polish (that explains my love for whisky and vodka). We've done better genealogy on that side - my Irish side not so much, so it would take quite some work. Still, it's interesting to think that this could be an option.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

CltFlyboy said:


> I'd love to hear more about the lineage experience ...


Of course, every country is different and every case is different. My wife had a great great grandfather, born in Italy who emigrated to Peru (where my wife is from). That (and a few other rules) means that my wife is entitled to make a jure sanguinis claim to Italian citizenship - basically she is an Italian citizenship and just needs to prove it. We got 5 generations of documents (going back to 1837 in Italy before Italy technically existed) from 4 countries, got everything translated and apostilled, waited a few years for our appointment, waited another few years for their decision, and then a few months ago my wife got a letter saying that the Italian government recognized her claim and that she is welcome to apply for a passport - we have an appointment for that in a few months and this should be pretty straightforward at this point.

It was a long and messy and difficult process, made more difficult by red tape. They don't exactly make it easy, and they probably don't _want_ to make it too easy. But we got through it. In the meantime, I got a great job I can work remotely so we plan to move to BCN sometime next year. #ymmv.


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