# Trying to find a builder



## LizP (Sep 27, 2015)

Hi - so we have been trying to find a builder in the Oliva area for a while, but it isn't easy. I thought we would at least have a few quotes by now. I am told that there aren't any builders around right now because they are all on big jobs out of town but will be back in a while.  We will see. I really don't mind waiting as long as it takes, as it will happen when it happens, but I would really like to have a ballpark idea of what the work might cost when it eventually happens.
I am wanting a new kitchen installed, a wall removed and a new bathroom installing upstairs - (we don't currently have a bathroom upstairs, so all the piping etc is needed). Does anyone have any idea from experience what I am looking at here in terms of price? I need to know if my budget is enough.

Thanks


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

LizP said:


> Hi - so we have been trying to find a builder in the Oliva area for a while, but it isn't easy. I thought we would at least have a few quotes by now. I am told that there aren't any builders around right now because they are all on big jobs out of town but will be back in a while.  We will see. I really don't mind waiting as long as it takes, as it will happen when it happens, but I would really like to have a ballpark idea of what the work might cost when it eventually happens.
> I am wanting a new kitchen installed, a wall removed and a new bathroom installing upstairs - (we don't currently have a bathroom upstairs, so all the piping etc is needed). Does anyone have any idea from experience what I am looking at here in terms of price? I need to know if my budget is enough.
> 
> Thanks


You will need an architect as this sounds like obra mayor and not menor.

He will be able to give you a quote and also make recommendations for a builder.

You will also have to get the appropriate licences although he can help with this.


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## LizP (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you for your reply - I was hoping it wouldn't need that, but I can see you are right. I will seek out an architect - seems to be something that just adds expense (from an English perspective) but if it is needed, it is needed 
Thanks again


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## Popgirl (Feb 21, 2016)

Hello LizP

We have a holiday home in Calpe and we have recently had major renovations done and we used a local architect who I would highly recommend. He used builders from your area who we were very pleased with. My husband was there during the renovations and saw their work first hand. If you want to send me a private message I am more than happy to send you the architect and the builders details. To give you an idea of cost we paid €30k for a new kitchen (good spec with new oven, microwave, hob, fridge/freezer ) walls knocked down to create open plan lounge dinning room and kitchen , new ensuite, a terrace room converted into a studio with kitchenette, roof terrace. This priced included the licences materials etc. What people don't appreciate when looking at the price is all of the "unseen" work like electrics , movement of air con units, plumbing etc so we were pleased with the price so bear this in mind.


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## LizP (Sep 27, 2015)

Thanks Popgirl

I tried sending you a private message, but I couldn't as I got a message...

'Popgirl has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.'


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## Popgirl (Feb 21, 2016)

Sorry LizP I think it's because I haven't posted enough posts to become a full member. Hopefully after a few more posts I can message you with the details.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

LizP said:


> Thank you for your reply - I was hoping it wouldn't need that, but I can see you are right. I will seek out an architect - seems to be something that just adds expense (from an English perspective) but if it is needed, it is needed
> Thanks again


You do need to make sure (via your local ayuntamiento) that using an architect and getting the correct licences isnt a legal requirement for the work you're wanting to do. There are different rules in spain and different rules in different regions of spain - some you even need permission to change tiles

Jo xxx


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

LizP said:


> Thank you for your reply - I was hoping it wouldn't need that, but I can see you are right. I will seek out an architect - seems to be something that just adds expense (from an English perspective) but if it is needed, it is needed
> Thanks again


Whilst you might think it adds an expense, don't forget that your architect is also your project manager. They will also ensure that you get the correct documents upon completion. In that respect they liaise with the local building inspectors etc.


... and it IS needed. If you don't get a licence then you can be fined and may have to put things back as they were before.


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## lee25767 (Sep 22, 2013)

hi LizP,
I want some work done on my house in Oliva,We are over next week to meet up with a few builders so will let you know how it goes and more inportantly, who turned up!


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> Whilst you might think it adds an expense, don't forget that your architect is also your project manager. They will also ensure that you get the correct documents upon completion. In that respect they liaise with the local building inspectors etc.
> 
> 
> ... and it IS needed. If you don't get a licence then you can be fined and may have to put things back as they were before.


I have been using an architect in the initial stages of a modest 'obras menores' renovation of my small flat in Valencia city. 

Here is what he has quoted

1] 1.500 € project of refurbishment (demolition project included)
2] 1.000€ control of the works on site (management with builder)
3] 500€ management with town hall (permission of work and for skip)_ I sign as responsible of all the works and managements as your representative.
4] 500€ management with furnitures and providers (i.e. new gas contract)

I will check but I think 1] is_ what is to be done_, as he sees it and 2] is supervising_ how it is done_
The 'demolition' is two interior walls and some horrible 1970s orange tiles on the floor and walls of the kitchen.

So far ...

1.Receipt for the tax paid for the occupation certificate
2.Architects bill to obtain certificate and paperwork re water and electric providers
3.Copy of the request to obtain water supply and water meter giving your bank details
4.Declaration of responsibility for the renovation of the occupation license

I am to pay 2] which is 

- Certificate of state of the flat needed to obtain RELO and Management of RELO
with the town hall included. RELO: Renovación de Licencia de Ocupación (Ocupation License Renewal) 695158747

- Management with providers. Iberdrola and Emivasa. (Electricity and Emivasa) 

- BASE 275,00. IVA 21% 57,75 Suplido (RELO Tax) 11,94 TOTAL €344,69

The breakdown is that he charged €200 for his report on the condition of the flat and getting the RELO cert on the basis of that and €25/hr = €75 for setting up lekky and water accounts.

As for project management, I'm fighting shy of paying someone €3000 to do what I did myself in my house in Bristol - and I also did the actual work [wiring, lots of plumbing, designing and installing kitchen, bathrooms, tiling ... anything that did not need a sign-off by Building Regs.

But it looks like almost anything you do in a Spanish property requires some sort of 'docamenti' from a qualified architect, even 'obras menores', Though when I discuss all this with A Builder, he may tell me otherwise.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

captainendeavour said:


> But it looks like almost anything you do in a Spanish property requires some sort of 'docamenti' from a qualified architect, even 'obras menores', Though when I discuss all this with A Builder, he may tell me otherwise.


If by docamenti, you mean paperwork, licences, certificates (documentacion) then yes, you are right, but you don't need an architect for everything. Also each area differs so you have to go to the right department in the town hall (ayuntamiento) to find out. As snikpoh says, in some areas _you are supposed to_ get a licence even for changing tiles.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Don't know whether it is same up there but next door in Almeria a self-employed builder even with all paperwork/insurances, is not sufficient to do the work. He must be an S.L. A limited company. The architects should know this .


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

gus-lopez said:


> Don't know whether it is same up there but next door in Almeria a self-employed builder even with all paperwork/insurances, is not sufficient to do the work. He must be an S.L. A limited company. The architects should know this .


Oh Gawd! This brings to mind the Flanders & Swan ditty, "'Twas On A Monday Morning The Gas Man Came To Call."


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If by docamenti, you mean paperwork, licences, certificates (documentacion) then yes, you are right, but you don't need an architect for everything. Also each area differs so you have to go to the right department in the town hall (ayuntamiento) to find out. As snikpoh says, in some areas _you are supposed to_ get a licence even for changing tiles.


'Docamenti' is an Italian word for documents, permits, certificates, nods-&-winks - almost inevitably accompanied by a bung.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

captainendeavour said:


> 'Docamenti' is an Italian word for documents, permits, certificates, nods-&-winks - almost inevitably accompanied by a bung.


Some of us were a little confused why you were using the word on an English language forum in Spain - I thought that maybe it was a Spanish word that I hadn't come across before.


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> Some of us were a little confused why you were using the word on an English language forum in Spain - I thought that maybe it was a Spanish word that I hadn't come across before.


Well, like _schadenfreude, deja-vu_ and_ karma_, a single word that sums up a whole concept.

The best example of the failure of a northern european to understand the southern european way with 'docamenti' was told to me by our producer, during a shoot in Milan.

A German photographer flew down from Hamburg for just an hour or two's shoot of a model in a coat. He found a nice piazza, put the model in position, backed off 20-30 metres, set up his Hasselblad on the tripod and started to shoot. 

He did not notice that the women started to appear at the windows, the men to take seats at the cafes around the piazza ...

Suddenly, a Vespa raced into the piazza with a bloke on the pillion, zoomed past the photographer, grabbed the tripod and camera on the way through and went off, brandishing it like regimental colours taken at Waterloo. The assembled onlookers clapped and cheered loudly.

The problem was that our man had failed to talk to The Man who was capo della piazza and obtain the appropriate 'docamenti' ...


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