# Learning Spanish: A Necessity?



## djenmexico

Hi everyone! 

I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently? 

I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.

If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?

Interested in hearing your experiences...


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## Isla Verde

djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.
> 
> If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences...


When I moved to Mexico, I was already pretty fluent in Spanish, having been a Spanish major back in college and having spent quite a bit of time in Spanish-speaking countries over the years. But I am still learning more about the language every day and am nowhere near as fluent as I'd like to be. Have you ever taken formal classes? Unless you're one of those lucky people who are able to pick up a new language by living in it, or are under the age of 15, and as a former Spanish teacher, I really believe that most adults benefit from taking classes to give you a good grounding in grammar and vocabulary. Then you can take what you know out to the streets and the markets and practice, practice, practice. Making friends with Mexicans around your age is very helpful too, as long as they don't want to use your time with them practicing their English!


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## JoParsons

Do you know how little I want to sound like the broken-spanish gringa? But it's baby steps for me. I just hope the spanish speakers are as patient with me as I am with them.


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## Isla Verde

I've found most Mexicans to be very patient and encouraging with any foreigner who attempts to speak Spanish with them. With friends, often the problem is that they won't correct any egregious errors you make unless you ask them to.


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## JoParsons

Oh, I certainly want them to correct me. I correct others because I know I want to be corrected. I mean, why keep saying it wrong and sounding like an idiot!


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## Isla Verde

JoParsons said:


> Oh, I certainly want them to correct me. I correct others because I know I want to be corrected. I mean, why keep saying it wrong and sounding like an idiot!


There is this Mexican cultural trait of not wanting to say anything negative to anyone, and so unless you ask a special friend to help you with your mistakes with Spanish, they will be very reluctant to do so. And pedagogically speaking, it's not really helpful to have every mistake corrected, just the really big ones or mistakes you make repeatedly. When I give English classes, that's something at the top of my list of do's and dont's.


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## holodeck

Isla Verde said:


> I've found most Mexicans to be very patient and encouraging with any foreigner who attempts to speak Spanish with them. With friends, often the problem is that they won't correct any egregious errors you make unless you ask them to.


After I had learned a few hundred words I would go into a place where I sort of knew everyone, I would get it across what I wanted, then ask them to correct my spanish. I then waked out and back in like it was my first time there and attempt to get it right ( heavy on attempt ) 

It always cracked them up,

When I was a young stud I would pick a place that had a lot of cute young girls working there. Made a lot of new friends. Ah... those were the days.


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## Isla Verde

holodeck said:


> After I had learned a few hundred words I would go into a place where I sort of knew everyone, I would get it across what I wanted, then ask them to correct my spanish. I then waked out and back in like it was my first time there and attempt to get it right ( heavy on attempt )
> 
> It always cracked them up,
> 
> When I was a young stud I would pick a place that had a lot of cute young girls working there. Made a lot of new friends. Ah... those were the days.


A great pedagogical real-life technique!


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## holodeck

Isla Verde said:


> A great pedagogical real-life technique!


Had to look that word up. but yes, learning spanish and flirting are one in the same...don't be bashful, just dive right in.


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## AlanMexicali

*Double edged sword*



Isla Verde said:


> There is this Mexican cultural trait of not wanting to say anything negative to anyone, and so unless you ask a special friend to help you with your mistakes with Spanish, they will be very reluctant to do so. And pedagogically speaking, it's not really helpful to have every mistake corrected, just the really big ones or mistakes you make repeatedly. When I give English classes, that's something at the top of my list of do's and dont's.



The cultural trait of adults in Mexican culture of not wanting to say anything negative to others is deep rooted and at times hard to transverse in some situations I have learned throughout the years. In fact this is possibly very irritating in some situations for the reason that when trying to understand a situation that turned weird no one is willing to correct it by speaking out as to what is wrong. In this way the situation remains unsolved and festers. The bottom line is this habit of having a pretentious attitude becomes a hindrance sometimes to relationships and negative to all involved. I find children more willing to help correct poor pronunciation and grammar for me and less uptight about getting some things out in the open in general and not playacting as much as the adults. This is very refreshing as pretending everything is hunky dory when it is not gets old and tiresome at times. Saying this don't think I don't follow the rules usually and go with the flow. I wouldn't think of getting a reputation as being a troublemaker or outwardly rude in general but am talking about specific incidences I have experienced.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> The cultural trait of adults in Mexican culture of not wanting to say anything negative to others is deep rooted and at times hard to transverse in some situations I have learned throughout the years. In fact this is possibly very irritating in some situations for the reason that when trying to understand a situation that turned weird no one is willing to correct it by speaking out as to what is wrong. In this way the situation remains unsolved and festers. The bottom line is this habit of having a pretentious attitude becomes a hindrance sometimes to relationships and negative to all involved. I find children more willing to help correct poor pronunciation and grammar for me and less uptight about getting some things out in the open in general and not playacting as much as the adults. This is very refreshing as pretending everything is hunky dory when it is not gets old and tiresome at times.


I agree with your analysis except for your use of "pretentious". I think this attitude is, in many cases, the opposite of pretentious, it's more like trying too hard to please. For example, I've learned the hard way that if you ask a stranger on the street for directions and they don't have a clue, rather than saying, "Sorry, I don't know where Superama is,", in most cases, you'll be given erroneous instructions on how to get there.


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## Isla Verde

holodeck said:


> Had to look that word up. but yes, learning spanish and flirting are one in the same...don't be bashful, just dive right in.


And as your Spanish improves, you'll be able to use your new language skills to flirt!


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## AlanMexicali

*Trying to hard to please.*



Isla Verde said:


> I agree with your analysis except for your use of "pretentious". I think this attitude is, in many cases, the opposite of pretentious, it's more like trying too hard to please. For example, I've learned the hard way that if you ask a stranger on the street for directions and they don't have a clue, rather than saying, "Sorry, I don't know where Superama is,", in most cases, you'll be given erroneous instructions on how to get there.


I have been given wrong directions in TJ so many times I have come to the conclusion in TJ this is a good joke to play on Americanos. LOL Possibly everyone, thank goodness for Google Map now. I was not talking about generalities but about specific situations where I know these people an ex wife and present wife's families and friends etc. or worked with them in SD for a very long time and have had dealings with them. 

A present example is the carpenter doing the doors and closets in our almost ready to move in house is the brother in law of the architect [a woman] and took over a month just to do the inside doors, now after 6 weeks of doing closets he is still only 3/4 finished. We did not have him do the kitchen or bathroom cabinets. My wife will not complain and I have not asked her to say anything or acted negative in anyway. This guy thinks he is a Pacasso and in his defense he is A+ as his work and materials are first class even compared to the US.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I have been given wrong directions in TJ so many times I have come to the conclusion in TJ this is a good joke to play on Americanos.
> 
> A present example is the carpenter doing the doors and closets in our almost ready to move in house is the brother in law of the architect [a woman] and took over a month just to do the inside doors, now after 6 weeks of doing closets he is still only 3/4 finished. We did not have him do the kitchen or bathroom cabinets. My wife will not complain and I have not asked her to say anything or acted negative in anyway. This guy thinks he is a Pacasso and in his defense he is A+ as his work and materials are first class even compared to the US.


I don't think the giving wrong directions is targeted at foreigners, I think it's just considered rude to say "I don't know", so giving wrong directions is seen as the lesser of two evils. I often use my English students (all intelligent adults) as informants when flummoxed by cultural differences, such as this one, and the above explanation is what they have told me.

Have you asked your wife (I assume she is Mexican) why she won't complain about how long the carpenter is taking? When you hired him, did he give you a definite date for finishing his work?


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## Guest

djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences...


When I first came to Latin America, I knew about 20 words in Spanish (beer, food , bathroom, etc  ). For me, it was like walking through life with the remote turned on MUTE. I could see everything, but couldn't hear or understand anything.

First, I bought a good Spanish-English dictionary, and it went everywhere with me. (12 years later, it is still here under my desk and I still use it daily. It's looking a bit dog-eared but I can now usually open it within one page of where I need to look.

Second, I took classes three hours a week for about a year.

Some advice that I got from a bilingual attorney I met was to NEVER read the local newspapers because the writing was so horrible. His advice was to read 25 good books in Spanish with my dictionary next to me. Whenever I didn't understand a word, I had to look it up. (I only managed to read a few books doing this, but it did help). He did explain that this was to best way to build a rich vocabulary, but not to necessarily know how to speak it.

I tried to learn a few new verbs every day to build my vocabulary. That helped too.

Once I had a good basis of vocabulary, the next step was to use those verbs depending on who I was referring to (I, you, he/she/they, we, etc) and after that, how to use past and future tenses. That also helped, and people began to understand my Spanish.

How can you tell that you are getting better? People won't look at you with a blank face when you are speaking. You will recognize bad translations in the subtitles in movies and TV programs. (ever see someone's name translated to "Don Pito Pérez???  ) You will hear and understand normal people gossiping or complaining while standing in lines at the bank, or in the supermarket - I'm still not sure I want to listen and understand all that is said. The TV news broadcasts will make sense to you.

I sometimes meet someone who looks at my face (usually someone with little or no previous contact with foreigners), makes the decision that they don't understand me BEFORE I speak, and they don't hear a word I say. They sometimes respond "I don't speak English" before I say a word. I just ask them to not look at my face but listen to my words. Once they stop doing it, they are surprised that yes, I am talking to them in Spanish and yes, they do understand. If not, I just ask them ¿Habla Español?, and then they get it and say "Ahh Si, Siii, perdón", we're over that issue and can then speak.

I also found great sources of help through this forum. *One was Rolly Brook's website "My Life in México"*. He has amazingly good lists of vocabulary for cooking, shopping and building terms. *Another is Spark's website "Sparks Mexico Web",* and you can read through his various posts such as "House Building in Mexico" to build your vocabulary. (Thanks to both of these gentlemen).

Many times, asking a local for directions is a tough one. They may have never gone there except by taxivan, and they only know the different taxivans and their routes and the stops. They recognize the stop, but have no clue what the street names are, or directions.

It's a journey - just take one step at a time, but keep moving. Good luck.


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## AlanMexicali

*Carpenter*



Isla Verde said:


> I don't think the giving wrong directions is targeted at foreigners, I think it's just considered rude to say "I don't know", so giving wrong directions is seen as the lesser of two evils. I often use my English students (all intelligent adults) as informants when flummoxed by cultural differences, such as this one, and the above explanation is what they have told me.
> 
> Have you asked your wife (I assume she is Mexican) why she won't complain about how long the carpenter is taking? When you hired him, did he give you a definite date for finishing his work?


I have come to the conclusion that the carpenter has several other projects going at the same time [I see different stuff in his pick up and the security guard at the entrance told us he leaves for days at a time.] and we are not a priority because his sister in law, our architect, has finagled us an excellent price for the job he is doing [big discount according to him] and we supply all the material. She has done an excellent job regarding getting things done on time and cheap [she used her 8 man crew for everything] except the kitchen designer she recommended and we ended up using was way over the original that she had seen them charge before and the window company also went way over budget from what she said they should charge. My Mexican wife does not want to offend the architect and yes the house was started in Oct. and was promised to be finished by July. The carpenter gave no date and is basically getting paid weekly piece meal for everything he completes.

The not wanting to offend people is one of the charms of living in Mexico. Also do not think people are getting away with things when being abusive and not confronted, the gossip will get back to them if they are lucky and possibly become wiser, some do take advantage of this habit for their own egos, as some do in every other country. Others are nice to their face and snide behind their backs ... pretentious.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> Others are nice to their face and snide behind their backs ... pretentious.


I would call that kind of behavior hypocrital, not pretentious.


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## AlanMexicali

*Pretensious*



Isla Verde said:


> I would call that kind of behavior hypocrital, not pretentious.


Well if it is hypocritical to not offend a family member or friend or co -worker when they mess up then what is the practice of not wanting to offend people; the polite way to behave and the status quo here? Us Americans and Canadians have to get used to the way things are or else become a novelty and a non confident outsider.

I do not like to eat pozoli or menudo. When at someone's house for food and it is served I tell them why. When I first started dating my ex wife her cousin had pozoli and that night I ended up in the hospital with dysentery and could go back to work for 4 days and felt awful. Then they seem to understand and I tell them I just cannot eat it because I couldn't get myself past that. I know it is rude and psychological.


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## vantexan

I remember being called guerro(spelling) for the first time by a coworker in McAllen, TX. I honestly thought she called me a whale, which they thought was funny, especially since I'm 6'2", 280lbs, LOL!

I know a few words but can't converse. I hope to improve that but I especially like what I saw in a television commercial recently. A young man is visiting his grandfather's hometown in Europe. He speaks English into his cellphone and the question comes out in the local language. In all honesty I doubt I'll ever be as fluent as anyone here. But since I won't be working I think I can get by fine with such a device. I expect much of my Spanish will be pointing to some fruit in a market and saying dos, por favor. Gracias!


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## FHBOY

*Necessity?*

From what I have heard, the answer is a qualified "maybe". I met people at Lakeside, where we are moving, who have been there a while and still do not speak fluent Spanish (I gainsay some speak none at all). Same thing of gringos I met in PV. The reasoning there is that these are one a ****** chock full of nuts (Lakeside) and a tourist town (PV) so to get along the Mexican people there have a working knowledge of English that allows communication and commerce.

I suppose it is like traveling in Japan a few years back. Major cities, no problem, can make yourself understood, the signs are all bilingual, but get to some small towns, like where my son lived, forget about it. I expect to find the same thing as I travel throughout Mexico when I get there. The major cities, the tourist towns all the "******-land" areas will be easier to get along in, but God help me if my car breaks down along the road near some small town or row of shops.

Now I have done OK with my high school/college required Spanish, the verb drills we used to do and a lot of the nouns so there is a basis. I will go to school when I get to Mexico, for classes, to help me gain confidence in using and augmenting what I already know (somewhere buried deep in whatever is left of my memory).

As a side bar: I spent an undergraduate year studying in Israel. Before classes began, during the summer, we went to ulpan (immersion language classes) every day, five days a week from 9:00 until 12:00 or so, it was intense, but after six weeks, I could get about on the street, understand conversations and instructions and even read Hebrew better. I want that type of education in Spanish when I get there.

In the end, it is a personal choice that has more to do with my attitude towards my adopted home: do I want to be the eternal stranger, or do I want to live in the place I have chosen as a part of it? Like our ancestors who moved to the US and Canada (except Quebec ), they made it their business to learn English, and if not them, their children, because that was the way they became part of society. Yes, it is more attitudinal. As I have said before expats are strangers in a strange land and as such we need to conform to the place we have chosen and not expect that place to conform to us.

(I hope that when I do learn Spanish, I'll also learn how to write shorter posts...sorry.)


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## holodeck

The first time I was in Mexico. About 30 years ago. I would apologize for my poor spanish. More often than not they would say...as long as I can understand you it's fine. I never worried about it after that

In Mexico no matter how fluent you are the ****** never washes off.


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## JoParsons

I like that people who visit America from another country give it a try. When I visited Paris and Barcelona, they liked that I tried their language and filled in the spaces for me. We were all speaking a mixture of english and either spanish or french. It's kinda fun.


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## AlanMexicali

*Güero*



vantexan said:


> I remember being called guerro(spelling) for the first time by a coworker in McAllen, TX. I honestly thought she called me a whale, which they thought was funny, especially since I'm 6'2", 280lbs, LOL!
> 
> I know a few words but can't converse. I hope to improve that but I especially like what I saw in a television commercial recently. A young man is visiting his grandfather's hometown in Europe. He speaks English into his cellphone and the question comes out in the local language. In all honesty I doubt I'll ever be as fluent as anyone here. But since I won't be working I think I can get by fine with such a device. I expect much of my Spanish will be pointing to some fruit in a market and saying dos, por favor. Gracias!


Güero means blond, light in color, fair and usually more common if you have blue eyes. I have been called El Güero and have blue eyes and light colored hair. The word güera is common when describing woman with very light or white skin tones. Rubio is blond hair and morena clara is for describing a woman with light skin tones but not exactly white. Güero is pronounced WEDO. The "ü" letter is not very common as far as I can see.


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## AlanMexicali

*Pretending*



Isla Verde said:


> I would call that kind of behavior hypocrital, not pretentious.


I just reread my response to you for this post a few posts back and have to clarify it as I did not make it very clear. I also would find gossiping behind someones back hypocritical, obviously, no matter who or were it happens and it is a part of human nature for many people. The fact that the status quo here in Mexico or among many Mexican people is to not comment negatively when something major happens, not worried about everyday things, seems to me this act of not confronting it at the moment lends itself to gossiping about the incident between trusted friends or family who usually will not mention it to that someone who upset someone else, again being human nature for many people. That is why I see this as play acting or pretending instead of hypocrisy. Pretending all is well and good when it is really not. Brothers who are macho seem to be the worse offenders and as far as I see are getting away with murder when dealing with their sisters at ever age and this can and does flow over into their marriage. If you do not think gossip and male superiority is not as common as eating corn tortillas in some families, you haven't been around them long enough yet.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I just reread my response to you for this post a few posts back and have to clarify it as I did not make it very clear. I also would find gossiping behind someones back hypocritical, obviously, no matter who or were it happens and it is a part of human nature for many people. The fact that the status quo here in Mexico or among many Mexican people is to not comment negatively when something major happens, not worried about everyday things, seems to me this act of not confronting it at the moment lends itself to gossiping about the incident between trusted friends or family who usually will not mention it to that someone who upset someone else, again being human nature for many people. That is why I see this as play acting or pretending instead of hypocrisy. Pretending all is well and good when it is really not. Brothers who are macho seem to be the worse offenders and as far as I see are getting away with murder when dealing with their sisters at ever age and this can and does flow over into their marriage. If you do not think gossip and male superiority is not as common as eating tortillas in some families, you haven't been around them long enough yet.


I'm confused. This post talks about "pretending", while in previous posts you discussed being "pretentious", which is not the same thing, though, of course, these two concepts are related. I've lived in Mexico long enough to be very aware that gossiping and ideas of male superiority or "machismo" are common in some families. As I'm single and occasionally date Mexican men, I am especially aware of the continuing existence of "machismo" in Mexican culture!


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## JoParsons

Now, see? This is fun . . . I have heard alot about the machismo culture and can't wait to see it in action. My concern is that I'm an outspoken woman and I guess my only saving grace is that I don't speak the language well. Everything in my life has two edges, two sides and usually some cream filling in the middle if I can just be patient enough to discover it.


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## AlanMexicali

*OK*



Isla Verde said:


> I'm confused. This post talks about "pretending", while in previous posts you discussed being "pretentious", which is not the same thing, though, of course, these two concepts are related. I've lived in Mexico long enough to be very aware that gossiping and ideas of male superiority or "machismo" are common in some families. As I'm single and occasionally date Mexican men, I am especially aware of the continuing existence of "machismo" in Mexican culture!


It was a poor choice of that word but I did clarify what I meant and do have a view that this habit does affect other behaviors at times. I can see the differences between US and Mexican culture as both fueling behavior that either an American or a Mexican from Mexico has a hard time understanding that eventually becomes clearer as time goes on. One poster mentioned manana is good enough and maybe even thinks it is a polite way of not doing something, happens everywhere I assume. What usually manana means to me is that rushing around like we all seem to do in San Diego is stressful and in Mexico many don't like this because it is not necessary in some sectors, however is happening less and less in most sectors as things are modernized and expected pronto or as promised. Some might see this a kind of fraud to get business and I have seen that also. Possibly this is another flow over from not wanting to say anything negative, who knows for sure how these things have developed.


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## JoParsons

too serious


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## holodeck

JoParsons said:


> too serious


+1 on that.


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## FHBOY

holodeck said:


> +1 on that.


+2 on that - good discussion but in all of it our compadres that live in Mexico did not answer the question: Is it necessary to speak Spanish?

Post on, my friends...and stay thirsty! (An inside joke for us NOB people)

Oh, and Jo...no matter your stand on feminism and macho-ness, since the 60's you've been making the choice as to how to act (react?) to it. There are male feminists who also do not know how to act (react) to macho, macho men when they are encountered. It is another discussion - and should prove interesting - while we are solving the problems of the world !


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## Guest

FHBOY said:


> +2 on that - good discussion but in all of it our compadres that live in Mexico did not answer the question: Is it necessary to speak Spanish?


OK, so "NO, it's not necessary to speak Spanish to live in Mexico." But I will make some observations and criticisms on this point. 

1. You can come to Mexico and live in a Gringolandia development, live in most ways just like you are NOB, eat the same foods if you can find them, buy or bring in the same toys you would have "back home", complain about what you can't find in MX, talk English all of the time with other like-minded folks in your ****** development, and pay someone else to do everything that you can't do for your lack of language skills. 

That will also give you something to brag about to your friends back home - "Yeah, life in MX is good. I've got 5 employees taking care of the house down here now, and everything is so cheap." Cost of living in this manner in MX - about the same as living NOB. Better weather. Less government intrusion in your life. Daily wealth from living in MX - zip. You're not getting to enjoy all of the differences and experiences that living in Mexico has to offer. 

2. While living NOB, if you ever complained about "those "darn" Mexicans who refuse to learn English now that they are here in America", or had evil thoughts flash through your mind when you heard people NOB talking in Spanish, like your landscapers, or at your carwash, or in your supermarket, or on the street - then stop being a hypocrite by refusing to learn anything in the primary language of Mexico if you decide to live here. Unlike those I used to know who would complain about Mexicans' poor English when they used it NOB, people in MX appreciate the effort even if they can't understand everything the first time you say it.

If you ever complained or ranted about "those "darn" illegals" NOB, and don't bother to get a visa or game the system so as to not get a visa in MX, then hit the road pal, and go home. Most folks here could care less about all of the money you say you are pumping into the local economy, if you yourself are just a "darn" illegal here in MX.

If you want to live here in MX, then get your visa arranged so you are legal to do the things you want to do in MX, whether as a retired person or making a living. I don't buy any of the B.S. excuses I've heard about not being able to learn basic Spanish, and I think I've heard most of them by now.

Sorry for the soap box - this is one of my pet peeves after living outside of the US for almost 20 years.


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## AlanMexicali

*Insights*



FHBOY said:


> +2 on that - good discussion but in all of it our compadres that live in Mexico did not answer the question: Is it necessary to speak Spanish?
> !


Sorry you few got bored with my insights. This was maybe not to your liking however the OP did not complain and reciprocated nicely and sincerely. As for the necessity of learning to speak passable Spanish I have posted numerous times my experiences and so have many others.


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## holodeck

djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.
> 
> If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences... [/
> 
> 
> 
> The OP, read it again.


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## AlanMexicali

*OP*



holodeck said:


> The OP, read it again.



LOL By the time the thread had evolve to this point I thought "Isla Verde" was the OPer. I wonder what happened to "djenmexico"? Are you still out there?


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> Sorry you few got bored with my insights. This was maybe not to your liking however the OP did not complain and reciprocated nicely and sincerely. As for the necessity of learning to speak passable Spanish I have posted numerous times my experiences and so have many others.


I did not get bored with your insights, it is a pleasant diversion - and those insights are very valuable. I am a minimalist who answers (in a very long winded manner) questions, and you who are residents in Mexico have a lot to teach. So, please nothing personal here, OK? 

One comment, like me you have posted a lot in many different threads and I'll be darned if I read them all (as after a while you will tire of mine), so I may not have read your posts. I, too, have made my point (or the same point) on various threads, it doesn't stop me from putting them out there again.

Hope we are still friends, compadre!


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## FHBOY

GringoCArlos said:


> OK, so "NO, it's not necessary to speak Spanish to live in Mexico." But I will make some observations and criticisms on this point. ...et.al.


Couldn't agree more about that. But is there a middle ground on where you choose to live? The more adventurous may opt to live outside Gringoland...I am not one of them. I will choose to live in Lakeside, but refuse not to learn Spanish - as you say, then what's the reason to move there? I mean, we are not spending every day of the next 25 years of our life (with the help of God) in Ajijic and Lake Chapala, we want to use it as a base to see not only Mexico but more of Latin America. Yes, and maybe I would like a bit of Gringoland when I finish traveling and using Spanish just to let my mind cool off - until I am as fluent and comfortable in Spanish so that it is less of an intellectual effort, and more natural.

As to your second point all I can say is RIGHT ON! (yes,I'm from the 60's). You want live here, then LIVE HERE, become a legal resident, or permanent resident or even opt for citizenship. Mexicans seem to be too polite, from what I have read, to treat non-Spanish speakers in the manner we treat non-English speakers here in the US (in my experience). "You want to live in our house, learn the manners and language we speak!" What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

I'll put my soapbox away now - and look for an immersion school in Lakeside when I get there.


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## vantexan

Luckily Mexico belongs to Mexicans, not Mexicophiles. As long as I act respectful and kind I doubt most Mexicans will care about my lack of linguistic skills. I've taken transfers to 3 cities on the border, have Hispanic cousins, and my Mother's family are mostly Cherokee. It's not just about cheap living for me. I'm fascinated by the areas of Mexico that have a large indigenous population, as well as Spanish Colonial architecture. And I suspect most who move to Mexico feel a strong attraction to it's many facets. I don't think they are run of the mill ugly Americans, and deserve better consideration than a rant impugning their motives.


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## Nuria Freixas

djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.
> 
> If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences...


As a Spanish teacher I believe that formal lessons are necessary when learning a foreign language. Still, makeing the most of your daily shopping, finding a Spanish study partner, using internet ... can help you tremendously to improve your Spanish. I'm still working on my English 
¡Buena suerte!!


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## FHBOY

vantexan said:


> Luckily Mexico belongs to Mexicans, not Mexicophiles. As long as I act respectful and kind I doubt most Mexicans will care about my lack of linguistic skills. I've taken transfers to 3 cities on the border, have Hispanic cousins, and my Mother's family are mostly Cherokee. It's not just about cheap living for me. I'm fascinated by the areas of Mexico that have a large indigenous population, as well as Spanish Colonial architecture. And I suspect most who move to Mexico feel a strong attraction to it's many facets. I don't think they are run of the mill ugly Americans, and deserve better consideration than a rant impugning their motives.


Again, I agree - how can one be an "ugly American" (and there is mention of this reference in another thread) and decide to live in a foreign country. It makes no sense. But again, looking for the middle ground (which I do not agree with), there are those very respectful ex-pats who, for whatever reasons, and they are not malicious can/will not learn Spanish. OK. Just as long as, like you say, they don't become arrogant about it and know that it is they, not Mexicans, who need to adapt.

Yes, most of us who have chosen to live in a country, it is because we like it there, not solely for economic reasons, or am I being naive?


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## djenmexico

AlanMexicali said:


> LOL By the time the thread had evolve to this point I thought "Isla Verde" was the OPer. I wonder what happened to "djenmexico"? Are you still out there?


YES! I am haha. I went on a two day trip a few days back and when I came back I had an inbox full of replies to this thread. Didn't think that many people would bite at my pretty average discussion but happy to have all these responses to read.

As far as GringoCArlos's response goes, I think there's a lot of assumptions in there that I am not a part of. First off, I'm not from the USA, and I've never had a problem with people in Canada who don't speak English, in fact I work for a company that teaches English to willing students in Latin America. I'm legal here in Mexico as well. 

I'm also not a retiree who has left the states to live off of cheap labour with 4 maids and a gardener. I'm 20, working full time, and living with my suegros. If you take a look at the second part of my post I ask for advice on which language learning route to take. So the original question is, should someone who is staying in Mexico for an extended period of time learn Spanish, and if so what is the best way to go about doing that.

I do appreciate your efforts to provide examples and explain two ways to live down here, one in a "NOB bubble" and the other where you get involved in the culture. I don't think it's so black and white though. I think I fall in a grey area. Maybe because I'm here to support my spouse and didn't come for a vacation. I'd love to learn some more Spanish so I can communicate with my in-laws better. 

Thanks for all the responses guys, still going through them.


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## djenmexico

JoParsons said:


> I like that people who visit America from another country give it a try. When I visited Paris and Barcelona, they liked that I tried their language and filled in the spaces for me. We were all speaking a mixture of english and either spanish or french. It's kinda fun.


I like that Jo! That's what I've been trying to do so far. The mixture is okay for me, and I like the effort given on both ends of the conversation. I think from popculture and being immersed in a language we start off with an advantage. Lucky us! Imagine having to learn a language that no one has heard of before. How difficult that must have been. Just like Colombus and the Aztec's speaking Nahuatl. 

Appreciate the response


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## djenmexico

GringoCArlos said:


> When I first came to Latin America, I knew about 20 words in Spanish (beer, food , bathroom, etc  ). For me, it was like walking through life with the remote turned on MUTE. I could see everything, but couldn't hear or understand anything.
> 
> First, I bought a good Spanish-English dictionary, and it went everywhere with me. (12 years later, it is still here under my desk and I still use it daily. It's looking a bit dog-eared but I can now usually open it within one page of where I need to look.
> 
> Second, I took classes three hours a week for about a year.
> 
> Some advice that I got from a bilingual attorney I met was to NEVER read the local newspapers because the writing was so horrible. His advice was to read 25 good books in Spanish with my dictionary next to me. Whenever I didn't understand a word, I had to look it up. (I only managed to read a few books doing this, but it did help). He did explain that this was to best way to build a rich vocabulary, but not to necessarily know how to speak it.
> 
> I tried to learn a few new verbs every day to build my vocabulary. That helped too.
> 
> Once I had a good basis of vocabulary, the next step was to use those verbs depending on who I was referring to (I, you, he/she/they, we, etc) and after that, how to use past and future tenses. That also helped, and people began to understand my Spanish.
> 
> How can you tell that you are getting better? People won't look at you with a blank face when you are speaking. You will recognize bad translations in the subtitles in movies and TV programs. (ever see someone's name translated to "Don Pito Pérez???  ) You will hear and understand normal people gossiping or complaining while standing in lines at the bank, or in the supermarket - I'm still not sure I want to listen and understand all that is said. The TV news broadcasts will make sense to you.
> 
> I sometimes meet someone who looks at my face (usually someone with little or no previous contact with foreigners), makes the decision that they don't understand me BEFORE I speak, and they don't hear a word I say. They sometimes respond "I don't speak English" before I say a word. I just ask them to not look at my face but listen to my words. Once they stop doing it, they are surprised that yes, I am talking to them in Spanish and yes, they do understand. If not, I just ask them ¿Habla Español?, and then they get it and say "Ahh Si, Siii, perdón", we're over that issue and can then speak.
> 
> I also found great sources of help through this forum. *One was Rolly Brook's website "My Life in México"*. He has amazingly good lists of vocabulary for cooking, shopping and building terms. *Another is Spark's website "Sparks Mexico Web",* and you can read through his various posts such as "House Building in Mexico" to build your vocabulary. (Thanks to both of these gentlemen).
> 
> Many times, asking a local for directions is a tough one. They may have never gone there except by taxivan, and they only know the different taxivans and their routes and the stops. They recognize the stop, but have no clue what the street names are, or directions.
> 
> It's a journey - just take one step at a time, but keep moving. Good luck.


Thank-you CarlosGringo. I saw this post after I read your other one on page 4. I think the one on page 4 wasn't directed at me but the other posts that have been going around.

I really appreciate this detailed response. I actually feel a lot better about the part where you said "How do you know you are getting better." I have totally caught some bad movie subtitles and I am noticing less and less of the blank stares. 

I think I will have to really get involved with classes like you said. Someone who can take what I've been studying and help me make sure what I am studying on my own is correct. To help me refine my pronunciation. 

Thanks! I'm going to take all your suggestions and start putting them into practice. I already have a Spanish-English dictionary but I usually leave it at home. Going to bring it with me. I also just purchased a novel in Spanish, so hopefully that'll help too. 

Muchas gracias Sr. CarlosGringo


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Movie sub titles and Spanish dubs in movies*



djenmexico said:


> I really appreciate this detailed response. I actually feel a lot better about the part where you said "How do you know you are getting better." I have totally caught some bad movie subtitles and I am noticing less and less of the blank stares. Muchas gracias Sr. CarlosGringo


First of all sorry we hijacked your thread back there for awhile.

Second, I also learned so much from the cable TV movies that are dubbed or have sub titles. One thing I eventually found out was the sub titles are designed to make sense to the Spanish speaking audience so that is why many expressions and slang words do not line up to the original English. Also they do not like to put in swear words so tone them down. In dubs they have to fit the words to match the lips so many time they don't follow but the message is "usually" the same plus the audience needs to understand the unknown phrases [doesn't make sense in Spanish] and the slang words also. So a phrase to simulate the English phrase sometimes is completely different. Also some words don't translate well to English so alternative words are use to get the point across.


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## djenmexico

AlanMexicali said:


> First of all sorry we hijacked your thread back there for awhile.
> 
> Second, I also learned so much from the cable TV movies that are dubbed or have sub titles. One thing I eventually found out was the sub titles are designed to make sense to the Spanish speaking audience so that is why many expressions and slang words do not line up to the original English. Also they do not like to put in swear words so tone them down. In dubs they have to fit the words to match the lips so many time they don't follow but the message is "usually" the same plus the audience needs to understand the unknown phrases [doesn't make sense in Spanish] and the slang words also. So a phrase to simulate the English phrase sometimes is completely different. Also some words don't translate well to English so alternative words are use to get the point across.


But I think the important thing is that you are able to identify the differences between the spoken English and the subtitles. That is a sign that you are beginning to understand Spanish a bit more.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Sub titles*



djenmexico said:


> But I think the important thing is that you are able to identify the differences between the spoken English and the subtitles. That is a sign that you are beginning to understand Spanish a bit more.


Exactly what is important is phonetics, vocabulary, grammar and practice. I read good Spanish because I learned the Spanish alphabet [correct pronunciation] and numbers over 30 years ago. I might not know what the words always mean but can pronounce them right. A mini sized pocket dictionary is the way to go. Just keep it in your car or pocket. Even the worst situation will get you want you want. I did this when teaching my ex wife English.


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## AlanMexicali

*The hijacking of this thread for awhile.*



FHBOY said:


> I did not get bored with your insights, it is a pleasant diversion - and those insights are very valuable. I am a minimalist who answers (in a very long winded manner) questions, and you who are residents in Mexico have a lot to teach. So, please nothing personal here, OK?
> 
> One comment, like me you have posted a lot in many different threads and I'll be darned if I read them all (as after a while you will tire of mine), so I may not have read your posts. I, too, have made my point (or the same point) on various threads, it doesn't stop me from putting them out there again.
> 
> Hope we are still friends, compadre!


Of course I feel you are a rational and well tuned in person. I have even given a few 'likes" to your posts. I get into things sometimes when on any thread as some may have noticed. No excuse. I feel any discussion is good discussion as I have learnt a lot about other people's experiences. For example I don't know much about living in towns but walk around them when on the road to somewhere usually and those who share their experiences that do are valuable. I still don't see many talking about San Miguel De Allende, the real inside, I mean, but every time we go their for a visit, 2 hour drive, it happens to be on Sunday and I seem to get bad vibes from the expats there, like I am ruining their Sunday by being a tourist, except a guy I met named Larry. We like to dance salsa in the plaza and enjoy the place. Maybe they should bake delicious chocholate cake muffins with chocolate chunks to tourists for $15.00 or $20.00 pesos and then possibly they will enjoy where they live and meet people and add some extra spending money to their budget. LOL We never feel that way in Guanajuato [a city] even though they also are overrun by tourists.


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## FHBOY

*There You Go...*

Alan - there you go again, :wink: hijacking a thread but WOW! what a great insight. :high5: I never heard of San Miguel De Allende but now that you've introduced me, it is on my list to visit once we settle down. I looked through the I-net stuff - and told my wife. It just adds to the excitement.

My hijack: you see this is one of the main reasons for 1) our decision to move to Mexico and 2) to stay current on the Forum. There is so much we (and I suppose so many others) don't know about Mexico and Latin America, and ignore for places like the Caribbean (not that I have anything against it), or Europe, or the Orient. Insights like yours are what some of us here need to see.

Truth (es verdad): Had it not been for the Forum, we'd still be looking at PV for retirement...and have missed the wonderful vibes, weather and location and places at Lakeside. Yes it is more Gringoland [but you have read my views further above about this].

 Now a question - I am a bit tired so I lost your point about you be a "tourist" and ruining their Sunday. Are you saying that this community is so insulated from Mexican culture that any interference of it, like speaking Spanish is an imposition, or just the opposite?


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## AlanMexicali

*Sma*



FHBOY said:


> Now a question - I am a bit tired so I lost your point about you be a "tourist" and ruining their Sunday. Are you saying that this community is so insulated from Mexican culture that any interference of it, like speaking Spanish is an imposition, or just the opposite?


I just feel that when we are there things seem strange to me compared to the other towns and cities when the plaza, streets, shops. small hotels and restaurants are overly crowded with us obvious tourists. ... cameras, stopping and starring everywhere, taking up all the benches everywhere, taking up all the tables at the restaurants with long waits and long lines everywhere like the OXXOs etc. Lines of tour buses parked close to downtown, just like in Guanajuato. There seems to be a thing going on behind the scenes, for example keeping benches reserved for a long time when their friends are out walking around or weird looks from some people etc. Most of the tourists are probably Mexicans there for the day or vacationing there. It might be a number of little things we notice that give off this negative vibe from some expats. Maybe they are just cliques of artists and friends from New York or where ever, who knows what is going on there. Their art shops are too expensive for what I see, especially when 25 minutes away Delores Hidalgo has a great selection of good, cheaply priced Mexican art and pottery and a nice plaza and good vibes.


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## AlanMexicali

*Sunday en El Jardin, SMA*

I found this video of Sunday salsa dance in San Miguel De Allende. Lots of fun.


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## RVGRINGO

"Truth (es verdad): Had it not been for the Forum, we'd still be looking at PV for retirement...and have missed the wonderful vibes, weather and location and places at Lakeside. Yes it is more Gringoland [but you have read my views further above about this]."
Quote: FHBoy

Actually, you'll need a lot more Spanish at Lake Chapala than you would in Puerto Vallarta, a true 'tourist trap'. Admittedly, we do go to PV or nearby towns on the coast every winter, for a 'beach fix', and just made our reservations a few days ago. The local vendors, hotel staff, and even the street hawkers, all seem to speak English. Of course, their prices are three or four times normal, but when we respond in Spanish and start chatting, the prices come way down. American tourists, who may hear us, or see us driving our Jalisco plated car, often can't believe that we live in the mountains just five hours drive from the beach & haven't set foot in the USA for many years. So, to enjoy some time at the beach in PV, Manzanillo or Mazatlan, one must 'put up with the tourists from the north', but not so much in the smaller towns and villages we often visit instead. That said, we were able to negotiate a very low price for one of the beachfront hotels in Puerto Vallarta's downtown, where we can either never leave the beachside hot tub, or walk to several real Mexican restaurants within just a few blocks, saving our big splurge for roast duckling in one of our favorite Austrian restaurants, practically next door to the hotel.
So, after five pages on 'Do you need to speak Spanish?': No, but you will remain isolated and have a very difficult time finding things. Speaking even intermediate Spanish will open a new world of enjoyment, friends and will also save you a bunch of money. If you really want to travel, especially in tiny towns or beach-front villages, then the answer is a resounding 'YES!'


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## AlanMexicali

*Sanish/English*



RVGRINGO said:


> "Truth (es verdad): Had it not been for the Forum, we'd still be looking at PV for retirement...and have missed the wonderful vibes, weather and location and places at Lakeside. Yes it is more Gringoland [but you have read my views further above about this]."
> Quote: FHBoy
> 
> Actually, you'll need a lot more Spanish at Lake Chapala than you would in Puerto Vallarta, a true 'tourist trap'. Admittedly, we do go to PV or nearby towns on the coast every winter, for a 'beach fix', and just made our reservations a few days ago. The local vendors, hotel staff, and even the street hawkers, all seem to speak English. Of course, their prices are three or four times normal, but when we respond in Spanish and start chatting, the prices come way down. American tourists, who may hear us, or see us driving our Jalisco plated car, often can't believe that we live in the mountains just five hours drive from the beach & haven't set foot in the USA for many years. So, to enjoy some time at the beach in PV, Manzanillo or Mazatlan, one must 'put up with the tourists from the north', but not so much in the smaller towns and villages we often visit instead. That said, we were able to negotiate a very low price for one of the beachfront hotels in Puerto Vallarta's downtown, where we can either never leave the beachside hot tub, or walk to several real Mexican restaurants within just a few blocks, saving our big splurge for roast duckling in one of our favorite Austrian restaurants, practically next door to the hotel.
> So, after five pages on 'Do you need to speak Spanish?': No, but you will remain isolated and have a very difficult time finding things. Speaking even intermediate Spanish will open a new world of enjoyment, friends and will also save you a bunch of money. If you really want to travel, especially in tiny towns or beach-front villages, then the answer is a resounding 'YES!'


Here's a thought to ponder. No one in my wife's immediate family, 11 children, speaks English except 4 nieces and 1 nephew and a kid brother. I have had conversations with them all in English and they, except her brother, went to private schools for secondaria and or prepa where English is a regular course. Now in their early or late twenties their skills in English have declined to the point of not being good talkers, very many mistakes. The one who is only 20 is excellent. She thinks she will stay excellent even though she only listens to English music sometimes. I feel the older ones lost conversational skills by about 35% because they graduated and admittedly don't keep up with it. Mispronunciation, words in the wrong order and wrong verb tenses. Funny thing is they all can follow every word I say and always respond correctly except too many mistakes to be considered bilingual now. Not to be hard on them, two speak German and French and the other speaks French, they took these when going to university. Her brother is now learning on his own and needs it for work.


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## lloydpearsoniv

*I don't hardly speak any spanish*

I don't hardly speak any spanish & i managed to get by okay. Mostly because i have a translation app on my iPhone. I have lived in Ajijic, San Antonio & now Guadalajara. I have found a surprising amount of people who speak english. 

I guess it is easier to know spanish, but I wouldn't know. I have been okay without knowing much of it.


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## FHBOY

lloydpearsoniv said:


> I don't hardly speak any spanish & i managed to get by okay. Mostly because i have a translation app on my iPhone. I have lived in Ajijic, San Antonio & now Guadalajara. I have found a surprising amount of people who speak english.
> 
> I guess it is easier to know Spanish, but I wouldn't know. I have been okay without knowing much of it.


There is no doubt you can be without it in many places, but the difference between being a visitor/tourist and becoming a resident and part of a community (IMHO) is assimilating into the culture, without giving up your identity, but by adopting those attributes that will allow it (language, maybe culinary, local observances, customs that do not interfere with yours, etc.)

You may always be an "other" but the more you adopt your new culture, the more you will learn and be accepted.


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## Isla Verde

lloydpearsoniv said:


> I guess it is easier to know spanish, but I wouldn't know. I have been okay without knowing much of it.


Maybe you've been "okay", but without knowing the language you have no idea what you've been missing!


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## RVGRINGO

How would an 'app' be of any use when you want to call someone, or some business, and make an inquiry? How does it help you navigate the menu when the number you called offers you 'choices'?
Does it greet the folks you meet on the street, or allow you to ask for 'what is' vs. 'what might be at a certain other time"?
Nah! It is A LOT more fun if you learn to speak. It will come in 'plateau-like steps'. Simple one word vocablulary will lead quickly to the need for verbs, in a few of their multitude of tenses. Wow! Now you can make sentences that actually make sense. You may even be able to have a phone conversation and understand much of what is spoken, if the speaker is willing to slow down a bit. Some can; some can't. 
At every plateau, I feel I'm stuck forever but little by little, more becomes apparent.
If I keep this up, I'll talk myself into more lessons ............


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## WBTravis

*Learning spanish a necessity*

While it may not be necessary, it is good manners. after all you are in their country. Take classes if you know very little. I really dislike the "gringos" that have been here for years and don´t even try and so do the locals. If you try that is all they expect. Read the local paper, watch TV in Spanish. And in spite of the current trend in learning a foreign language, that is that accents are OK, and you don´t have to be perfect, and that translation is not the way to learn You should try to lose the accent, you should try to correct all of your mistakes and translation has been used for at least 2 thousand years to learn a foreign language so I guess it works. That´s how I did it. So now I speak 3 languages, English, Spanish and I can "talk" Texan.


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## Isla Verde

WBTravis said:


> . . . You should try to lose the accent, you should try to correct all of your mistakes and translation has been used for at least 2 thousand years to learn a foreign language so I guess it works. That´s how I did it.


Speaking as a former Spanish teacher and current teacher of English as a foreign language, translation is most assuredly NOT the way to learn a new language. The worst students I've had over the course of many years are the ones who think of what they want to say (or write) in their native tongue and then attempt to translate it into English. The results are often laughable and incomprehensible in terms of communicating what is meant.


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## AlanMexicali

*Translation*



Isla Verde said:


> Speaking as a former Spanish teacher and current teacher of English as a foreign language, translation is most assuredly NOT the way to learn a new language. The worst students I've had over the course of many years are the ones who think of what they want to say (or write) in their native tongue and then attempt to translate it into English. The results are often laughable and incomprehensible in terms of communicating what is meant.


I did exactly that. translated what I wanted to say from my mind in English for 20 or more years, except things that I learned as phrases in Spanish. I could not think in Spanish if it was not very common and familiar to me, no internet translators in those days to get it right only my pocket dictionary. I feel this will be the normal way most learn Spanish for a long time and the internet translators are good when memorizing what you want to say compared to just a dictionary.

Then I immersed myself in Spanish.Radio TV Music CDs etc. and all of of a sudden I stated to not translate what I wanted to say from English to Spanish little by little depending on how familiar the phrase was. Eventually the phrases became more and more complex as my verb tenses and my vocabulary grew. I could draw on my vocabulary I had accumulated over the previous 25 years and make sentences. I feel if you have not the ability to think in Spanish then translating from English will get you by if memorizing phrases that are correct are used and I feel when I was in this stage I was communicating quite well but lacked the art of being more involved with conversation because I didn't know how to translate what I wanted to add with being about 35% comprehension, even though my vocabulary was much larger every year. I could understand most of the words but not put them together to understand, sometimes it just didn't make sense with some key verb tenses missing and nouns were always the words I memorized easily.

I think you are being a little hard on those of us that have had no formal training and need to understand the evolution as it is STILL trying very hard to achieve a goal and at the age for us it is even harder to rewire our minds but gets us by and we are proud we can do at least communicate even though it might not be perfect.


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## Detailman

While researching information on learning a new language I found many interesting comments. Among them were the following. I recognized myself in the comments. Many times too afraid to try due to concern over how I would come across, etc. You have to get past that point to ever progress. Hope you enjoy the comments.

While young children can pick up two or more languages simultaneously—often just by being exposed to them—adults usually find learning a new tongue much more difficult. For one thing, they must be patient because learning a new language can take a long time. And with their busy schedules, this often means putting other pursuits on hold.

“Humility is essential,” says George. “When you are new to the language, you must be willing to speak like—and in some respects, be treated like—a child.” The book How to Learn a Foreign Language points out: “You have to shed some of your own self-importance and your worries about dignity if you really want to make progress.” So don’t take yourself too seriously. “If you never make mistakes, you are not using your new language enough,” notes Ben.

Do not worry if others laugh at your mistakes—instead, laugh along with them! In fact, the day will likely come when you will be telling entertaining stories about the things you have said. And don’t be afraid to ask questions. Understanding why something is said in a certain way aids the memory.

Because learning a new language often means learning a new culture, it helps to be adaptable, to have an open mind. “Learning another language has helped me to realize that there is more than one way of looking at and doing things,” says Julie. “One is not necessarily better than the others—just different.” Jay recommends, “Reach out to make friends with people who speak the language, and enjoy being with them.”


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## Detailman

Just an addtional comment. Years ago I learned sign language. Until I put into practice some of the things posted above and got over worrying about mistakes or how I was coming across -- my progress was slowwwwww! Once I shed some inhibitions, I progressed much more rapidly and actually became a translator.


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## JoParsons

100% agreed. If I hadn't judged poor english speakers, I wouldn't fear being judged speaking spanish poorly. This is a great exercise in humility. I speak my spanish every day now and nice people help me. Sometimes when I think I know what they are talking about, I just nod. But I turn out to be right so I must be getting is somehow. Body language goes a long way too. Too much of it is useless but a little here and there really helps.


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## AlanMexicali

*Dictionary*



JoParsons said:


> 100% agreed. If I hadn't judged poor english speakers, I wouldn't fear being judged speaking spanish poorly. This is a great exercise in humility. I speak my spanish every day now and nice people help me. Sometimes when I think I know what they are talking about, I just nod. But I turn out to be right so I must be getting is somehow. Body language goes a long way too. Too much of it is useless but a little here and there really helps.


I used a pocket dictionary and would look up words when out and about talking to sales people or waiters etc. and even would hand them the dictionary to look up the Spanish words and point to it as I would point to it for them on the Spanish side if I pronounced the word wrong and still didn't know what I was asking for. I would sit and look up words I saw all around me. It seems to me at least if I see the word in writing I remember it faster than just hearing it. I also would keep a pad and wrote words and phrases down , translated them and studied them later that I wanted to say to someone but at that point couldn't.


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## Isla Verde

JoParsons said:


> 100% agreed. If I hadn't judged poor english speakers, I wouldn't fear being judged speaking spanish poorly. This is a great exercise in humility. I speak my spanish every day now and nice people help me. Sometimes when I think I know what they are talking about, I just nod. But I turn out to be right so I must be getting is somehow. Body language goes a long way too. Too much of it is useless but a little here and there really helps.


If all else fails, a sincere smile goes a long way!


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## DNP

JoParsons said:


> 100% agreed. If I hadn't judged poor english speakers, I wouldn't fear being judged speaking spanish poorly. This is a great exercise in humility. I speak my spanish every day now and nice people help me. Sometimes when I think I know what they are talking about, I just nod. But I turn out to be right so I must be getting is somehow. Body language goes a long way too. Too much of it is useless but a little here and there really helps.


What better way to start your new life in Mexico! Keep up the good work. You will progress rapidly and be richly rewarded. Congratulations.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## RVGRINGO

One soon learns that accent marks are very important to pronunciation and understanding.
One should never confuse año (year) with ano (anus), or ala (wing) with Alá (Allah), etc.
Then, there are idioms (modismos), which will drive one crazy, and common usage. Many newly arrived people are often overheard in neighborhood 'tiendas' (not tents, but shops) asking for eggs by saying, "¿Tiene huevos? instead of ¿Hay huevos? There is a big difference!


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## PinkChili2

Oh ya!!! Sometimes it's not the word, it's how one uses it...like RVGRINGO said about 'huevos'...you'll want to be careful with 'caliente' as well...LOL!!!

And then, sometimes, it's the pronunciation. When I was in spanish school, pronunciation...my mispronunciation that is...had my teacher and I in fits of laughter. I mispronounced 'peine' as 'pene' and when I was trying to explain to her what a 'duvet' was I looked up 'comforter' in my spanish/english dictionary and the word it gave, and the word that I proudly blurted out, was actually something one would buy in an 'adults only' store (see 'pene'). My mistakes were starting to show a theme and we found it wildly amusing. I am, however, eternally grateful that I made those mistakes in class and not in public.

Another incident that garnered gales of laughter...thankfully it wasn't me this time...was at lunch, in front of the entire school, when a young student called out to a fellow student, who happened to be a priest, to ask him if he was hungry...'tienes hambre'...ooops, it came out as 'tienes hombre'...yep, we all still talk and laugh about that one. I highly recommend spanish school...it was a hoot!!!


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> One soon learns that accent marks are very important to pronunciation and understanding.
> One should never confuse año (year) with ano (anus), or ala (wing) with Alá (Allah), etc.
> Then, there are idioms (modismos), which will drive one crazy, and common usage. Many newly arrived people are often overheard in neighborhood 'tiendas' (not tents, but shops) asking for eggs by saying, "¿Tiene huevos? instead of ¿Hay huevos? There is a big difference!


And don't forget the amazing "ll" = "y".


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## RVGRINGO

Actually, it doesn't; it depends upon accent in different areas, but is a separate letter, as are ñ, rr, and ch.
Joly is spelled Yoli, Jasmine is Yasmin and Ha, Ha, is Je Je in Spanish, etc.
I'm still learning a lot of those sound differences.


----------



## sunnyvmx

The first trip to Mexico I went in to WalMart practicing my new Spanish and asked the stockboy, "Where is the dog I can eat?" After unsuccessfully controlling his laughter, he led me to the dog food aisle. I left my favorite blue cup in the chicken restaurant we favor and when returning the next day to retrieve it, without hesitation and after some practice, I said for all to hear, "Please, do you have my blue cow?" I was obliged to wait until the laughter subsided for my cup to be delivered. Now I am always greeted with huge smiles when visiting the restaurant. These are but two of my most memorable blunders. There have been others.
With few expats living in Catemaco, I am easily recognized so my exploits are well known. The latest happened when I was enthusiastically showing new residents around town and we went along tasting the herbs offered by the sidewalk vendors at the mercado. When I inquired as to an interesting leafy plant she eagerly tore off a piece and handed it to me. I popped it into my mouth as I had done the others and eveyone shouted "NO" and broke out laughing while I made ugly faces and spat the terrible tasting greenery from my mouth. It was then explained by many to be placed in wash water to make the clothes smell good. At least I think that's what they were saying.


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## TundraGreen

A good friend of mine, also from north of the border, and I were looking for a grocery store in a small town once. My friend asked a local on the street: "Where is a groseria"? On top of the verbal error, it turned out we were standing right in front of an abarrote, so the locals were really confused by the question.


----------



## Gupi

I recommend learning as much Spanish as possible. When expats stay at a basic level, able to make requests but not say much else, their relationships with Mexicans are based on service, not friendship. They can also be rude without realizing it, miss a huge amount of important information, and don't get to experience the depth of the culture. I speak advanced Spanish and it sometimes seems like I'm living in a different Mexico than some of the expats around me.

Expats who don't know much Spanish say things like Mexicans have a "simple" faith or they have "simple" lives, and the only reason they believe these statements is because they don't understand what's going on around them. On a more practical level, their social activities are also limited -- they can't go to plays, to Mexican movies, or to classes where Spanish will be the only language. This leads to them staying home to watch English-language TV, which just compounds the problem.

If you're an iPhone user, you might consider getting one of the flash card apps (I use Flash Cards Deluxe). When you learn a new term or phrase, you can immediately put it on a "card" and it will appear in rotation until you've memorized it. You can also review your cards anywhere, such as waiting for the bus. I also have a Spanish-English dictionary on the phone so I can look stuff up at any time.

The most helpful activities for me have been for me to write about my day, using colloquial sentences, and have a native speaker correct them when we get together. A common approach is to find a Spanish speaker who speaks English at about the same level as your Spanish and get together regularly, spending half the time correcting English and half in Spanish. This has all the benefits and drawbacks of socializing. I want to kick my study up a notch so am switching to a tutor, so we'll stay focused on my language problems and will be sure to meet regularly.


----------



## raquelita

*Having a Mexican conversation partner*



Nuria Freixas said:


> As a Spanish teacher I believe that formal lessons are necessary when learning a foreign language. Still, makeing the most of your daily shopping, finding a Spanish study partner, using internet ... can help you tremendously to improve your Spanish. I'm still working on my English
> ¡Buena suerte!!


Find one who's as motivated as you and will stick with it a few months. For example, mine was going to an international math conference in Yucatan. Then make sure you are not too kind to your partner, meaning you speak in English more than half of the time.

Treat yourself right if your goal is to improve your Spanish. At the least, you'll pick up some informal phrases and boost your confidence. At least, I did.


----------



## JoParsons

I was told that once I was in the culture, I'd learn faster. An understatement. I picked Uruapan because there's not a big expat population. Most of those I meet speak much less english than I speak spanish so it's pretty much up to me. The owner of the place where I'm staying is about my speed, but the clerk isn't so we are having little classes each morning. When I get over this cold, I will have so much to explore but, funny thing, I'm not impatient. I'm just taking care of myself cause, this isn't a vacation that I'm losing time on; I live here. Cool huh?


----------



## TundraGreen

JoParsons said:


> ... I'm just taking care of myself cause, this isn't a vacation that I'm losing time on; I live here. Cool huh?


I had the a similar reaction. Initially, I came for just two years. And I worried about the rate at which I was learning Spanish because I thought I had to master it in two years. Once I decided to stay, I relaxed and just continue chipping away at it knowing I have time. Curiously, my learning pace has picked up even though there is less pressure to learn right away.


----------



## raquelita

Good point about how there is always more to learn.


----------



## jreedbrundage

*Getting By or Living IN Mexico*

It depends on your goals. If you just want to "get by" at stores and restaurants, you can survive with what you have and pick up along the way. But if you truly want to live IN Mexico, that is, experience and participate in exchanges with Mexicans and learn how they see the world, then you need to become as fluid as possible. It is best to learn with a Mexican teacher who can not only accurately teach you the grammar and vocabulary, but also engage in conversations and introduce you to real Mexican life. Then it is practice, practice, practice by speaking with Mexicans. Don't let errors stop you from trying to converse. Mexicans appreciate that you make the effort to speak their language and will kindly help you. 



djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.
> 
> If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences...


----------



## 146028

I guess you don't really have to, but you should. Learning a new language is a very rewarding experience, and it would make living in Mexico more enjoyable. Besides, learning Spanish doesn't require any special abilities, just time and effort.

Obviously it's a very different scenario, but I could never have survived in Canada without knowing English.


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## baldilocks

¡¡¡POR QUÉ NO HABLO BIEN INGLÉS!!!, NI LO HABLARÉ, A ESTE PASO......

ÉSTA ES LA RAZÓN POR LA CUAL SOY INCAPAZ DE APRENDER A HABLAR O ENTENDER EL INGLES!!! 

la prueba consta de tres módulos... 

MODULO BÁSICO

"Tres brujas miran tres relojes Swatch. ¿Que bruja mira qué reloj? "

En inglés: 

"Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which
Swatch watch? "

MODULO AVANZADO

"Tres brujas 'travestis' miran los botones de tres relojes Swatch.
¿Qué bruja travesti mira los botones de que reloj Swatch? "

En inglés:

"Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which
switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? "*

...Y ESTE ES PARA MASTERS: 

"Tres brujas suecas transexuales miran los botones de tres relojes
Swatch suizos. ¿Qué bruja sueca transexual mira que botón de que reloj Swatch suizo? "

En inglés: 

"Three Swedish switched witches watch three Swiss Swatch watch
switches. Which Swedish switched witch watch which Swiss Swatch watch switch? "

luego dicen que el inglés es fácil..., anda ya¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ ¡¡¡POR QUÉ NO HABLO BIEN INGLÉS!!!, NI LO HABLARÉ, A ESTE PASO......

ÉSTA ES LA RAZÓN POR LA CUAL SOY INCAPAZ DE APRENDER A HABLAR O ENTENDER EL INGLES!!! 

la prueba consta de tres módulos... 

MODULO BÁSICO

"Tres brujas miran tres relojes Swatch. ¿Que bruja mira qué reloj? "

En inglés: 

"Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which
Swatch watch? "

MODULO AVANZADO

"Tres brujas 'travestis' miran los botones de tres relojes Swatch.
¿Qué bruja travesti mira los botones de que reloj Swatch? "

En inglés:

"Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which
switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? "*

...Y ESTE ES PARA MASTERS: 

"Tres brujas suecas transexuales miran los botones de tres relojes
Swatch suizos. ¿Qué bruja sueca transexual mira que botón de que reloj Swatch suizo? "

En inglés: 

"Three Swedish switched witches watch three Swiss Swatch watch
switches. Which Swedish switched witch watch which Swiss Swatch watch switch? "

luego dicen que el inglés es fácil..., anda ya¡¡¡¡¡¡¡


----------



## FHBOY

*An idea*



baldilocks said:


> ¡¡¡POR QUÉ NO HABLO BIEN INGLÉS!!!, NI LO HABLARÉ, A ESTE PASO......
> 
> luego dicen que el inglés es fácil..., anda ya¡¡¡¡¡¡¡


Now, in all seriousness, we could use this on the Forum, maybe in a new thread: Bilingual Practice. Some of you (us) who are better at Spanish can post in both languages and then we could start to learn to read. Of course pronunciation would suck, but it seems like a good idea. We/You would provide the Spanish and English translation, we/you would need to reply in Spanish w/English translation and then we could learn and be corrected. 

Oh, and no cheating! :ranger: Bing Translator, online translators etc etc are out. You *can *use it to look up words _(like a dictionary)_ that you/we don't know, but not to write a reply. 

:loco: Too much work, huh? Well it was a thought. What do you say?

Esta trabajo mas mejor? Esta es un pensamiento. Que hablamos?


----------



## RVGRINGO

May I suggest the following?

¿Demasiado trabajo? Estaba una pensamiento. ¿Que dice?


----------



## baldilocks

FHBOY said:


> Now, in all seriousness, we could use this on the Forum, maybe in a new thread: Bilingual Practice. Some of you (us) who are better at Spanish can post in both languages and then we could start to learn to read. Of course pronunciation would suck, but it seems like a good idea. We/You would provide the Spanish and English translation, we/you would need to reply in Spanish w/English translation and then we could learn and be corrected.
> 
> Oh, and no cheating! :ranger: Bing Translator, online translators etc etc are out. You *can *use it to look up words _(like a dictionary)_ that you/we don't know, but not to write a reply.
> 
> :loco: Too much work, huh? Well it was a thought. What do you say?
> 
> Esta trabajo mas mejor? Esta es un pensamiento. Que hablamos?


There is already a thread but it has been a bit quiet of late:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/46694-spanish-sentence-day.html

Hay un hilo, pero no recibe mucho uso recientemente.:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/46694-spanish-sentence-day.html


----------



## TundraGreen

baldilocks said:


> There is already a thread but it has been a bit quiet of late:
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/46694-spanish-sentence-day.html
> 
> Hay un hilo, pero no recibe mucho uso recientemente.:
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/46694-spanish-sentence-day.html


That thread is for the Spanish version of Spanish, not the Mexican version. It interesting to note that, of the 400 million plus Spanish speakers in the world, only about 10% are in Spain. Most of the rest are in Latin America with Mexico topping the list with over 100 million.


----------



## baldilocks

TundraGreen said:


> That thread is for the Spanish version of Spanish, not the Mexican version. It interesting to note that, of the 400 million plus Spanish speakers in the world, only about 10% are in Spain. Most of the rest are in Latin America with Mexico topping the list with over 100 million.


That is very true and the best Spanish is to be found in Colombia but, having said that, the basics of Spanish are the same, it is just that some words have taken on different meanings and others have either come into existence or died out in the various versions of Spanish to be found throughout the world. A Spaniard asking for "un bocadillo y un tinto" and expecting to get a sandwich and a glass of red wine might be surprised to get, in Colombia, a block of guava paste and a small black coffee! 

It is much the same with English and its various versions - American, Australian, Indian, etc. where many words have different meanings and are misunderstood such as the classic one American style "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" which should be "Frankly my dear, I don't give a dam" (no 'n') because a "dam" is a small Indian coin of very little worth - the expression also comes in the version "I don't give a fig" and a number of others.

So whether you choose to use the Spanish thread or start one of your own is up to you, I merely pointed out that one does exist.

No, before anyone comments, I'm not going to put that lot into Spanish.


----------



## Isla Verde

baldilocks said:


> That is very true and the best Spanish is to be found in Colombia


I assume you meant to say that with a . After all, there is no such thing as the "best" version of Spanish or any other language.


----------



## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> May I suggest the following?
> 
> ¿Demasiado trabajo? Estaba una pensamiento. ¿Que dice?


Muchas gracias. 

That's exactly what I meant!!! So I want to use dice for "say" not hablamos for "we speak".

How do you get the upside down "?"


----------



## baldilocks

Isla Verde said:


> I assume you meant to say that with a . After all, there is no such thing as the "best" version of Spanish or any other language.


What I said stands, the same as if you want to hear the best English go to Inverness in Scotland. 

Yes, there are "best" versions of every language - where they speak it correctly, without mangling words or introducing local slang to cope with their woefully inadequate command of their mother tongue (q.v. chav-speak like y'know, etc.)!


----------



## 146028

baldilocks said:


> *That is very true and the best Spanish is to be found in Colombia* but, having said that, the basics of Spanish are the same, it is just that some words have taken on different meanings and others have either come into existence or died out in the various versions of Spanish to be found throughout the world..


Technically speaking, there is no such thing as Colombian Spanish because there are many dialects spoken within Colombia (at least 10). This term is more geographical than linguistic as they vary in both vocabulary and pronunciation.

If you're in the north of Colombia, you'll notice they have a very different way of pronouncing the "s" in certain words, sometimes not pronouncing it at all. When they say "costa" it sounds like "cojta".



baldilocks said:


> Yes, there are "best" versions of every language - where they speak it correctly, *without mangling words or introducing local slang* to cope with their woefully inadequate command of their mother tongue.


Colombians do have slang, you can find an extensive list online. Furthermore, if there is such thing as standard Spanish, Colombians are far from using it. There are very defined differences in the way they talk:

1. In almost all Latin America, "tú" is an informal pronoun (used between friends and relatives) and "usted" is a formal pronoun (used when addressing someone with authority). This is the exact opposite in Colombia, where they use "usted" between family and friends. This is evident in almost all of Colombia, except for a few regions where they use vos!

2. In most regions of Latin America, the diminutive ito, ita is used to indicate something small, for example gatito = little cat (or small cat). This is not the case in Colombia, where they use the diminutive ico,ica.



baldilocks said:


> ...where they speak it correctly, without mangling words or introducing local slang *to cope with their woefully inadequate command of their mother tongue*


Who are you to say that someone is using a language wrong? Difference doesn't equate to mistake. And how do you really decide what is the "best" version of a language? That is impossible to determine since there is too many differences in grammar, spelling, pronunciation, vocabulary, etc.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Macs have all the 'Special Characters' in the 'Edit' toolbar, but the common ones are available directly; The ¿ is done by holding Alt and Apple down while typing ? You can also type é or ñ by just holding down Alt, then the letter and the letter a second time after releasing Alt. All math symbols and other linguistic alphabets are availble in 'Special Characters'.


----------



## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> Macs have all the 'Special Characters' in the 'Edit' toolbar, but the common ones are available directly; The ¿ is done by holding Alt and Apple down while typing ? You can also type é or ñ by just holding down Alt, then the letter and the letter a second time after releasing Alt. All math symbols and other linguistic alphabets are availble in 'Special Characters'.


Thanks, RV, but I'm a PCer...any one out there can help me>


----------



## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Thanks, RV, but I'm a PCer...any one out there can help me>


Change to the Spanish keyboard. To type an accent over a vowel, hold the Shift key down, then hit the "/' key, then the letter key. To type ñ, hit the :/; key. For ¿, Shift key, then +/= key. For ¡, just hit the same key without the Shift. I hope this helps.


----------



## Guest

FHBOY said:


> Thanks, RV, but I'm a PCer...any one out there can help me>


Don't be such a cheapskate  - just buy a Spanish keyboard for your PC on Amazon for $8.50 and up. You get the ñ, the ¿, etc on any generic Spanish keyboard for a PC. On another thread, someone also listed all of the (Alt) commands for the others...


----------



## surfrider

*flirting?*



Isla Verde said:


> And as your Spanish improves, you'll be able to use your new language skills to flirt!


holodeck you are a kick. I will remember your new lang. and flirting analogy and that just might be motive enough to take a class.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Alt.*



GringoCArlos said:


> Don't be such a cheapskate  - just buy a Spanish keyboard for your PC on Amazon for $8.50 and up. You get the ñ, the ¿, etc on any generic Spanish keyboard for a PC. On another thread, someone also listed all of the (Alt) commands for the others...


PC Compatible Platform Make sure the Num Lock on the keypad at the right of your keyboard is on. Hold down the ALT key while at the same time typing the following numbers on the keypad.
The character will appear when you lift the ALT when finished typing the numbers.
ALT 160 = á
ALT 161 = í 
ALT 162 = ó 
ALT 163 = ú 
ALT 164 = ñ 
ALT 168 = ¿ 
ALT 130 = é 
ALT 173 = ¡ 
ALT 129 = ü


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> PC Compatible Platform Make sure the Num Lock on the keypad at the right of your keyboard is on. Hold down the ALT key while at the same time typing the following numbers on the keypad.
> The character will appear when you lift the ALT when finished typing the numbers.
> ALT 160 = á
> ALT 161 = í
> ALT 162 = ó
> ALT 163 = ú
> ALT 164 = ñ
> ALT 168 = ¿
> ALT 130 = é
> ALT 173 = ¡
> ALT 129 = ü


This won't work on a PC laptop since they don't have keypads, at least mine doesn't.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Keyboard accents*



Isla Verde said:


> This won't work on a PC laptop since they don't have keypads, at least mine doesn't.


What about if you bought an external USB2 keyboard? Or a Spanish external keyboard?


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> What about if you bought an external USB2 keyboard? Or a Spanish external keyboard?


Too complicated and awkward for me. I just switch back and forth between English and Spanish internal keyboards.


----------



## circle110

Isla Verde said:


> This won't work on a PC laptop since they don't have keypads, at least mine doesn't.


You probably have one and are just not aware of it. On the smaller laptops I've used (the ones with no numeric pad to the right) there is a numeric keypad embedded in the normal qwerty keyboard. 

If you hold down function(fn) - alt and type the following letter keys you get the number equivalent for use in those formulas that were mentioned earlier. 

M=0
J=1
K=2
L=3
U=4
I=5
O=6
7=7
8=8
9=9 

So, ó (normally alt-162) becomes fn-alt-J-O-K if you don't have a numeric keypad.

Kind of a kluge, but it works.


----------



## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> You probably have one and are just not aware of it. On the smaller laptops I've used (the ones with no numeric pad to the right) there is a numeric keypad embedded in the normal qwerty keyboard.
> 
> If you hold down function(fn) - alt and type the following letter keys you get the number equivalent for use in those formulas that were mentioned earlier.
> 
> M=0
> J=1
> K=2
> L=3
> U=4
> I=5
> O=6
> 7=7
> 8=8
> 9=9
> 
> So, ó (normally alt-162) becomes fn-alt-J-O-K if you don't have a numeric keypad.
> 
> Kind of a kluge, but it works.


Much easier to switch back and forth between an English and a Spanish keyboard as I've been doing.


----------



## FHBOY

*Cheapskate, aye?*



GringoCArlos said:


> Don't be such a cheapskate  - just buy a Spanish keyboard for your PC on Amazon for $8.50 and up. You get the ñ, the ¿, etc on any generic Spanish keyboard for a PC. On another thread, someone also listed all of the (Alt) commands for the others...


I resignate your castigation on my fiscal proclivities!!!  I didn't know such a thing was available. NOW a question, can I type in English on it?

Other than that, what is an internal keyboard? and the Alt+ solutions are OK.

Gee, you guys....luv ya - and for all you Red, White, Blues and Red, White and Greenies:

Happy Thanksgiving - ¡Feliz Thanksgiving!


----------



## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Other than that, what is an internal keyboard? and the Alt+ solutions are OK.
> 
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving - ¡Feliz Thanksgiving!


What I meant by internal keyboard was the little icon at the bottom of the screen that indicates the type of keyboard you are using. Right now it says "EN". If I click on it, it pops up and says "Show the language bar". If I click on this instruction, it appears at the top of my screen. Then if I click on a little downward-pointing arrow, aka Options, an option called Settings is shown. Click on this, and a little screen appears that let you add new language options. In my case, I use English (US) and Spanish (International Sort).


----------



## jasavak

I remember talking to groups of young children . When I pronounced something wrong , they always corrected me . lol, Sometimes they would laugh and point at me so I really had to learn . It's also a good way to start because they are very curious and don't mind using a limited vocabulary .


----------



## Aldis Walker

yes, knowledge of spanish is a necessity in mexico, they don't speak english and hate ******. it is a stereotype but it works(


----------



## Isla Verde

Aldis Walker said:


> yes, knowledge of spanish is a necessity in mexico, they don't speak english and hate ******. it is a stereotype but it works(


Wow, talk about negative blanket statements. Some Mexicans do speak English, even if not perfectly, though a couple of my students do rather well, and most Mexicans don't hate "gringos"- just ask my Mexican friends if they hate me! You must be hanging around with the wrong crowd.


----------



## conorkilleen

You should still make an attempt to learn Spanish and I do think it it a MUST. Once you get out of the big cities then it becomes increasingly more important to have a grasp of the language. Why would you want to live in a country where you dont speak the language? why would you want to rely on the chance that somebody that you will run across speaks english?


----------



## circle110

Well put, Isla Verde!

Several of my Mexican friends have doctorates and masters degrees and they all speak English (anywhere from fairly well to flawlessly). Even though we always speak to each other in Spanish, I have heard them use their English with others and it is far better than the Spanish of most of the "gringos" I know.

Most people of lesser education don't speak much English, that is true, but as a "******" I don't sense any hatred from them. Maybe they try to squeeze a few more pesos out of me in a transaction because they assume that because I am from the US I am rich (I wish they were right) but that's not hatred, that's just them trying to make the transaction go their way. 

As for the original post; no, it is not necessary to speak Spanish. I have met a surprising amount of norteamericanos in nearby San Miguel de Allende that have lived there for 20 years or more and don't speak a word of Spanish. They get along OK but I'm sure they pay more for everything and have a less rich experience because they can't speak Spanish.


----------



## conorkilleen

circle110 said:


> As for the original post; no, it is not necessary to speak Spanish. I have met a surprising amount of norteamericanos in nearby San Miguel de Allende that have lived there for 20 years or more and don't speak a word of Spanish. They get along OK but I'm sure they pay more for everything and have a less rich experience because they can't speak Spanish.


It must be pretty boring not speaking Spanish in a Spanish speaking country....or maybe that just makes it more exciting...I don't know. Sounds like a silly thing *not* to learn if you are living here.


----------



## circle110

conorkilleen said:


> It must be pretty boring not speaking Spanish in a Spanish speaking country....or maybe that just makes it more exciting...I don't know. Sounds like a silly thing *not* to learn if you are living here.


I agree, conorkilleen.
I couldn't believe it when I found out how long they had lived there. San Miguel is kind of a special case though; the expat community is huge and very active there and a sub-culture of English speaking Mexicans has developed to accommodate and provide services for them. If they lived about anywhere else, they'd be struggling badly.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> I agree, conorkilleen.
> I couldn't believe it when I found out how long they had lived there. San Miguel is kind of a special case though; the expat community is huge and very active there and a sub-culture of English speaking Mexicans has developed to accommodate and provide services for them. If they lived about anywhere else, they'd be struggling badly.


I understand that San Miguel is a special case, but I wonder if many of the expats who choose to live there do so because they know they won't need to learn Spanish to have a good life.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> Well put, Isla Verde!
> 
> Several of my Mexican friends have doctorates and masters degrees and they all speak English (anywhere from fairly well to flawlessly). Even though we always speak to each other in Spanish, I have heard them use their English with others and it is far better than the Spanish of most of the "gringos" I know.
> 
> Most people of lesser education don't speak much English, that is true, . . .


I've found that for the most part Mexicans who speak English well are either highly-educated (like circle's friends), well-traveled people, who've had the chance to spend time in English-speaking environments or poor Mexicans who've spent time in the US as undocumented workers, where they were able to pick up the language.


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## conorkilleen

circle110 said:


> I agree, conorkilleen.
> I couldn't believe it when I found out how long they had lived there. San Miguel is kind of a special case though; the expat community is huge and very active there and a sub-culture of English speaking Mexicans has developed to accommodate and provide services for them. If they lived about anywhere else, they'd be struggling badly.


Little story:
My wife has some property near the coast in Puerto Escondido that we are going to build on in the next few years. Its away from the main center of the city about 10 minutes to the West along the coast. We were there in July surveying and the neighbors walked up to me and started speaking English! (broken but ok). I never expected them to speak English since they lived in a makeshift cabana looking house with dirt floors, ect. The man told me that he has a fishing boat they he takes tourists out for rides and fishing and learned over 15 years of doing that...he did have a little surfer vibe to his talk but was very formal in his speech. PE is a surfer city and lots of foriegners come to party and surf there...I guess fish too.

My wifes parents live about 1 hour to the West in a *little* town called Rio Grande and NOBODY speaks English. I liked that better for some reason. I guess I felt like there was more respect given to me for learning thier language and them not having to struggle or be too shy to communicate with me. I would sit outside in the morning with a hot cup of coffee while the townspeople would be walking by going to the market. I like to people watch. They dont see too many gringos down that way and usually just keep conversations to themselves when they see one. When I would say good morning to them in Spanish and a few other pleasentries as they walked by, they would most times stop and ask me if I spoke Spanish. When I responded in Spanish we would have a nice little conversation for a few minutes and then they were on thier way...sometimes they would even bring me some fresh chicharones from the market as they walked back by! We spent about 2 weeks there in July and it was great. It almost makes me want to buy land closer to her parents place to get away from the English speakers.


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## DNP

conorkilleen said:


> You should still make an attempt to learn Spanish and I do think it it a MUST. Once you get out of the big cities then it becomes increasingly more important to have a grasp of the language. Why would you want to live in a country where you dont speak the language? why would you want to rely on the chance that somebody that you will run across speaks english?


Necessity or not, learning Spanish will enrich one's life many, many times over. So worth the effort!

WashDC/SMA


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## TundraGreen

DNP said:


> Necessity or not, learning Spanish will enrich one's life many, many times over. So worth the effort!
> 
> WashDC/SMA


Learning a second language is also reputed to be one of the best ways of keeping your mind active (and maybe even slowing the onset of Alzheimer's should that be a problem). So why wouldn't you chip away at improving your language skills.


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## RVGRINGO

I keep learning Spanish and I continue to delude myself into thinking that I'm still lucid. 
Some of my Mexican friends may have differing opinions.


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## jasavak

*Speak the language*



circle110 said:


> Well put, Isla Verde!
> 
> Several of my Mexican friends have doctorates and masters degrees and they all speak English (anywhere from fairly well to flawlessly). Even though we always speak to each other in Spanish, I have heard them use their English with others and it is far better than the Spanish of most of the "gringos" I know.
> 
> Most people of lesser education don't speak much English, that is true, but as a "******" I don't sense any hatred from them. Maybe they try to squeeze a few more pesos out of me in a transaction because they assume that because I am from the US I am rich (I wish they were right) but that's not hatred, that's just them trying to make the transaction go their way.
> 
> As for the original post; no, it is not necessary to speak Spanish. I have met a surprising amount of norteamericanos in nearby San Miguel de Allende that have lived there for 20 years or more and don't speak a word of Spanish. They get along OK but I'm sure they pay more for everything and have a less rich experience because they can't speak Spanish.


""I have met a surprising amount of norteamericanos in nearby San Miguel de Allende that have lived there for 20 years or more and don't speak a word of Spanish. They get along OK but I'm sure they pay more for everything and have a less rich experience because they can't speak Spanish. ""

Maybe none of them have their Masters Degree and are the people with lesser education .


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## jasavak

I hear you . Every time we visit the tourist towns we feel more uncomfortable . Sometimes the local people speak English that is so bad I have to ask them to repeat it in Spanish so we can understand them .


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## circle110

jasavak said:


> b
> Maybe none of them have their Masters Degree and are the people with lesser education .


Hmmm, I'm not sure if that's a humorous comment or a slam on my post.

I wasn't making a value judgement of highly educated people over lesser educated people. I have many friends in both categories (both Mexican and American) and don't see one as better than the other.

I was simply disagreeing with the comment made earlier in this thread that stated that Mexicans don't speak any English. Indeed some do. Most of the people I meet here who speak English well are either highly educated, work in tourism or, as Isla Verde mentioned in her post, have spent some years in the US. 

You don't have to be highly educated to learn another language. I've met cab drivers and gas station workers here who speak some (or a lot) of English. It's just that since English is currently the dominant language in the world, it is very common for non-native English speakers to learn it when pursuing advanced studies. Because of that, people with advance degrees are more likely to speak a foreign language.

On the original topic:
I think that people who move to another country indeed ought to make an effort to learn the local language. That applies equally to North Americans moving to Mexico or to Mexicans living in the US/Canada. I also have several Hispanic friends living in the US who have been there for 10-20 years and never learned English. It goes both ways.

Is it necessary to learn the local language? No, but it is the right thing to do and will improve your experience immensely.


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## dogtags

deleted


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## Isla Verde

dogtags said:


> deleted


I heartily agree! I remember the first time I was living in Mexico, way back in 1966, a Mexican friend mentioned to me that when I was speaking Spanish, I seemed to be a different person! Apart from the language being different, I used my hands and body differently; my whole demeanor changed compared to when I was speaking English. I've always felt that learning Spanish has enriched my life in so many ways that I could liken it to having a second personality.


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## Pet Mom

*Learning to speak fluent Spanish*



djenmexico said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I know there are expats of all ages on this forum and I wanted to know if you guys felt the obligation to learn Spanish fluently?
> 
> I've been in Mexico for about a year and I know quite a bit of Spanish but I am far from being fluent. Do you find that you can get by with just a little bit of Spanish while you stay in Mexico? I get pretty shy when ordering food and talking to people at the bank. Stumbling all over my words but at the end I feel proud of myself for speaking as much as I did.
> 
> If you do think it is a good thing to do, to become fluent and practice as much as possible, what route should I take? I have Rosetta Stone, also a few textbooks and a novel in Spanish. Should I enroll in a class or self-teach and learn from other and by just getting out there and speaking!?
> 
> Interested in hearing your experiences...


Hi,

Brand new to this forum. I was advised to learn to speak fluent Spanish if moving to Mexico for a lot of reasons. Mainly to not be so limited on deals with things such as home buying and such.

I know almost no Spanish and was thinking about getting Rosetta Stone. Since it is so costly, would you recommend I get it, or would just about any course do? I've also been told that merely watching Spanish-speaking soap operas on a regular basis would be helpful. I do love to listen to the group "Gypsy Kings" but I don't understand a thing they're saying. I just enjoy the instrumentals and harmonizing.

I hope to buy a home in Mexico in the next year, but was advised to rent for a while. So, I have a lot of homework to do...learn Spanish, check out properties, etc. I guess I'm saying yes, if you think you might feel more confident knowing more Spanish, then by all means go for it. It's a beautiful language and I can't wait to get started on it myself. Good luck to us both!


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## jojo

Is the tread closed??? I guess all angles have been covered....????

Jo xxx


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## TundraGreen

jojo said:


> Is the tread closed??? I guess all angles have been covered....????
> 
> Jo xxx


The thread is not closed. It is a topic that will never end.


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## Pet Mom

TundraGreen said:


> The thread is not closed. It is a topic that will never end.


Good cuz I would have been very sad if it was closed. I'd still like to know if anyone out there has a favorite way to learn Spanish without spending a lot of money. I'm not so young so learning a new language might be difficult for me. Also, I'm a visual learner so I need lots of pictures. 

I wholeheartedly agree with those of you here that going to a foreign country and learning the language is a very wise and enriching thing to do. I love the Mexican culture and can't wait to get started learning more.

So, how do I do that effectively? Thanks.


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## Isla Verde

Pet Mom said:


> Good cuz I would have been very sad if it was closed. I'd still like to know if anyone out there has a favorite way to learn Spanish without spending a lot of money. I'm not so young so learning a new language might be difficult for me. Also, I'm a visual learner so I need lots of pictures.
> 
> So, how do I do that effectively? Thanks.


In general, it is more difficult for an older person to learn to speak a new language than it is for someone much younger, let's say up to 20 years of age or so. Speaking as a former Spanish teacher and current English teacher, I highly recommend taking a good Spanish course wherever you are now, one that goes over the grammar and gives you lots of practice speaking. Then when you get to Mexico, you'll have a good basis for learning and improving your skills by interacting as much as possible with the Mexicans you'll meet everyday in your neighborhood. Perhaps you'll be able to find a Mexican teacher who will give you private lessons to encourage you to use the Spanish you already know and will learn as you get used to life here. I have several private English students who have studied all the grammar they will ever need but need me to help them focus and perfect their speaking skills. Good luck!


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## Pet Mom

Isla Verde said:


> In general, it is more difficult for an older person to learn to speak a new language than it is for someone much younger, let's say up to 20 years of age or so. Speaking as a former Spanish teacher and current English teacher, I highly recommend taking a good Spanish course wherever you are now, one that goes over the grammar and gives you lots of practice speaking. Then when you get to Mexico, you'll have a good basis for learning and improving your skills by interacting as much as possible with the Mexicans you'll meet everyday in your neighborhood. Perhaps you'll be able to find a Mexican teacher who will give you private lessons to encourage you to use the Spanish you already know and will learn as you get used to life here. I have several private English students who have studied all the grammar they will ever need but need me to help them focus and perfect their speaking skills. Good luck!


Thanks so much. I am looking into Rosetta Stone right now. I appreciate your advise and I look forward to learning something new...and keeping any possible impending Alzheimer's at bay.


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## jasavak

*Rosetta Stone*



Pet Mom said:


> Thanks so much. I am looking into Rosetta Stone right now. I appreciate your advise and I look forward to learning something new...and keeping any possible impending Alzheimer's at bay.



I don't know if I would spend money on a program like that . It might end up being a collection of expensive coasters . I would recommend taking classes at the junior college . I'm sure the cost has increased , but I paid $36 for a 4th level Spanish class 10 years ago ($12 per unit) . Step one : learn the alphabet and it's pronunciation . Step 2 , learn some vocabulary .


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> I don't know if I would spend money on a program like that . It might end up being a collection of expensive coasters . I would recommend taking classes at the junior college . I'm sure the cost has increased , but I paid $36 for a 4th level Spanish class 10 years ago ($12 per unit) . . .


I think a class with a good teacher and interested students is much better than something like Rosetta Stone. After all, language is a major means of human communication, and you need real people to communicate with!


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## RVGRINGO

You'll learn a lot more if your Spanish teacher is a native Spanish speaker; preferably from the area where you will be living.
Imagine a foreigner moving to New Jersey and learning English from a native of Alabama!


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