# One PRACTICAL step forward



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Following on from a post of Nigel's this has been the law in the UK since 2004:

_*Empty dwelling management orders 

The Housing Act 2004 allows us to take out an empty dwelling management order (EDMO) to make sure that your empty property is used for housing. We can make EDMOs on properties that have been empty for at least six months. There are two types of EDMO – interim and final. An interim EDMO lasts 12 months but a final EDMO can last up to seven, 14 or 21 years.*_

If a form of this law were to be applied in Spain the housing problem would be solved overnight.

Of course there would have to be stringent safeguards of people's legitimate property ownership rights - for example if your house is for sale and you don't get a buyer within that period.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mary in the area of Hampshire referenced the action is only applied to landlords and other specific property situations. So householders on long breaks or selling don't need to fear around here.

In John's case (local landlord) the people housed have been short term while they found employment or long term housing. The last family were from Sri Lanka and apart from creating a hindu shrine under the wooden stairs (lots of burning candles leading to blackened wood and I imagine one hell of a fire risk ) they were great fun. I now know more about spin bowling than ever 

It only took two months and he was employed as a garage manager some 30 miles away. Pity as he would have been fun to talk to during the recent tests  

The next tenant will be a corporate lawyer (private not council positioned). I wonder what he will be burning under the stairs


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary in the area of Hampshire referenced the action is only applied to landlords and other specific property situations. So householders on long breaks or selling don't need to fear around here.
> 
> In John's case (local landlord) the people housed have been short term while they found employment or long term housing. The last family were from Sri Lanka and apart from creating a hindu shrine under the wooden stairs (lots of burning candles leading to blackened wood and I imagine one hell of a fire risk ) they were great fun. I now know more about spin bowling than ever
> 
> ...


I'm surprised that Hampshire CC is so progressive, Nigel...But I think it's an excellent idea and it should be seriously considered here. It's a great example of PRACTICAL and ACHIEVABLE solutions to social problems. Another idea to pitch to your local PSOE, IU, PP branch.
When I was Group Leader back in the 90s we didn't have those powers .We did of course have CPO powers and we used them to purchase a pair of cottages right next to my cottage (unfortunately, as people misinterpreted my motives although we daily ran the risk of decapitation by falling pantiles).
We CPO'd them as they were dangerous structures, nests of vermin and eyesores.
We sold them to a local builder who did them up, rented them at reasonable rents for the required period as he had received an improvement grant to help with refurbishment, then sold them to young couples, in the process making for himself a not unreasonable profit.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Following on from a post of Nigel's this has been the law in the UK since 2004:
> 
> _*Empty dwelling management orders
> 
> ...


Absolutely. As I suggested in a post on a different thread, there are enough empty properties which have been repossessed by lenders (both through mortgage default and unsold spec-built housing where the developers have gone broke) to give everyone a roof over the head. There would be no need to touch properties owned by individuals.

There are a number of action groups pressing for this around the country, including Valencia where they occupied a branch of Bancaja.
La crisis provoca el desahucio de 50.000 familias valencianas · ELPAÍS.com

If the government were serious about protecting its citizens from the effects of the recession it would implement this policy immediately. It should also stop the banks evicting families who default on their mortgages because they have lost their jobs. The tenants would be responsible for maintenance and pay a small rental to the banks, so nobody would lose out.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

In Alicante many of the banks, I think voluntarily, have switched mortgage holders in default to a reasonable renting situation with a proviso that when their situation improves they can resume their mortgage at whatever interest rate is applicable at the time. This strikes me as a logical win win situation.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> In Alicante many of the banks, I think voluntarily, have switched mortgage holders in default to a reasonable renting situation with a proviso that when their situation improves they can resume their mortgage at whatever interest rate is applicable at the time. This strikes me as a logical win win situation.


That's very sensible. Do you know which banks they are, by any chance?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

I don't know about this law. Sounds little scary.
PErsonally I am saving for a flat here, somewhere that I can call home should an emergency arise, a place where I can put my stuff, a place that I might not visit for two years or more at the time, but that I know I own and it's mine or that it can be enjoyed by my children when they grow.

It isn't easy to live in a saving mode. It takes a great deal of self restrain. Everyone around here plays with their blackberry or the latest I Phone, mine is an old thing that only makes calls and sends sms's. We don't own a car, we walk. We don't dress expensive. We take care. We live well below our means, and save most of our earnings. Wouldn't it be unfair if my place was to be taken by some poor soul that couldn't keep up with his mortage just because I happened to be away. 

THe problem with nanny laws and our society in general is that there is no reward for common sense and it promotes greed.. IT's all spend spend spend, never mind the fact that you don't have any money to spend. Many jump into the mortagage bandwagon knowing that they couldn't afford it long term or that they didn't have the necessary job security.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I'm not sure that this is what mrypg9 means by being practical, (please move if necessary) but to me this is extremely practical and sums up what the movement in its essence is trying to do.

I know of 2 groups that have organised "Escuelas Populares". They are probably being organised in all the local assemblies, but these are the ones I know about. They are planning a series of talks and debates about the financial situation, the political system and how it works, where public money goes etc. In "Dos de Mayo" the talk is Causes and Consequences of the Crisis. Alternatives to antisocial cuts by economist Jorge Fonseca. In Vallekas it's a debate/ talk about the financial crisis with Gabriel Flores, economist.

In Valencia a group has set out to walk to Madrid in 34 days


> Acampada Valencia ha organizado una "marcha popular indignada" a pie que partirá este lunes hacia Madrid y que tiene previsto completar en 34 días más de 500 kilómetros para visitar 29 poblaciones en las que explicarán el movimiento y celebrarán asambleas para recoger las demandas de la población.


The Valencia Camp has organized a "march of the outraged " which will start on Monday, to Madrid and plans to complete in 34 days over 500 miles. They will visit 29 towns in which they will explain the movement and hold meetings to hear the demands of the population .

Finally I've heard that there is some talk about calling a general strike next month. However, apart from anything else (ie whether people are in favour or not) it seems they can't actually officially call one although I expect that's the least of their worries. Please don't fall on this suggestion like a pack of wolves and srew the thread up! I'm merely reporting that it's been talked about on the radio today, but nothing is decided, and I personally would not be in favour.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Finally I've heard that there is some talk about calling a general strike next month. However, apart from anything else (ie whether people are in favour or not) it seems they can't actually officially call one although I expect that's the least of their worries. Please don't fall on this suggestion like a pack of wolves and srew the thread up! I'm merely reporting that it's been talked about on the radio today, but nothing is decided, and I personally would not be in favour.


Yes, I saw that too. But only the unions could call a general strike, and since the union leaders are hand in glove with the government and part of the establishment, I doubt if they would do more than a token one day thing like the one last September. 

It isn't the role of the unions to lobby for the unemployed, but to protect the interests of their own members.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> I don't know about this law. Sounds little scary.
> PErsonally I am saving for a flat here, somewhere that I can call home should an emergency arise, a place where I can put my stuff, a place that I might not visit for two years or more at the time, but that I know I own and it's mine or that it can be enjoyed by my children when they grow.
> 
> It isn't easy to live in a saving mode. It takes a great deal of self restrain. Everyone around here plays with their blackberry or the latest I Phone, mine is an old thing that only makes calls and sends sms's. We don't own a car, we walk. We don't dress expensive. We take care. We live well below our means, and save most of our earnings. Wouldn't it be unfair if my place was to be taken by some poor soul that couldn't keep up with his mortage just because I happened to be away.
> ...


The housing situation is very different in the UK to Spain. There is no shortage of housing here, so no need to expropriate the investment properties of individual hardworking savers like yourself. And of course in practice that would not happen in the UK either.

It's interesting that put all the blame for mortgage default on irresponsible borrowers. Were they supposed to know they would lose their jobs? Don't you think the institutions that encouraged them to borrow more than they could afford to pay back should be held accountable too? It was their greed that sparked off the biggest crisis of capital that the world has ever seen, after all.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I saw that too. But only the unions could call a general strike, and since the union leaders are hand in glove with the government and part of the establishment, I doubt if they would do more than a token one day thing like the one last September.
> 
> It isn't the role of the unions to lobby for the unemployed, but to protect the interests of their own members.


I think Alcalaina you have identified why I am against. It is important that the movement is not at this stage associated with the unions, a party (new or old), or whatever - anything that has so miserably failed and/or is openly corrupt. That time may come if those organisations change but not yet. 

I also feel the fact that a large group within the movement cannot strike by definition (they are unemployed) may create an unnecessary division. 

Sadly the openness and transparency of the organisation will, as Pesky fears, give critics a chance to attack but that is a price worth paying and yesterday proved we have momentum on our side. 

In response to Sonrisa I fully agree we need to have protection for all members of society and fairly reward individual effort. But a balance can certainly be found. No one is suggesting giving houses for free to drop outs while those who have worked and saved hard pay the bill.

However at the end of the day if there are x families and x + y houses in Spain it strikes me a little odd that not every family is comfortably accommodated under a roof of some kind.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure that this is what mrypg9 means by being practical, (please move if necessary) but to me this is extremely practical and sums up what the movement in its essence is trying to do.
> 
> I know of 2 groups that have organised "Escuelas Populares". They are probably being organised in all the local assemblies, but these are the ones I know about. They are planning a series of talks and debates about the financial situation, the political system and how it works, where public money goes etc. In "Dos de Mayo" the talk is Causes and Consequences of the Crisis. Alternatives to antisocial cuts by economist Jorge Fonseca. In Vallekas it's a debate/ talk about the financial crisis with Gabriel Flores, economist.
> 
> ...


Any political education is of immense practical value. Agitate, educate, organise...that's my view!
General strike....hmm. The last one failed miserably. Not time for a strike...yet.
Not sure about marches. May not achieve much apart from fun and solidarity, neither to be sneezed at. The Right to Work march in the UK in the Thatcher years axchieved nothing.
But times are different.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> I don't know about this law. Sounds little scary.
> PErsonally I am saving for a flat here, somewhere that I can call home should an emergency arise, a place where I can put my stuff, a place that I might not visit for two years or more at the time, but that I know I own and it's mine or that it can be enjoyed by my children when they grow.
> 
> It isn't easy to live in a saving mode. It takes a great deal of self restrain. Everyone around here plays with their blackberry or the latest I Phone, mine is an old thing that only makes calls and sends sms's. We don't own a car, we walk. We don't dress expensive. We take care. We live well below our means, and save most of our earnings. Wouldn't it be unfair if my place was to be taken by some poor soul that couldn't keep up with his mortage just because I happened to be away.
> ...


We did all the 'right' things. We worked and saved for our retirement. We never took a penny from the state in benefits - we were lucky and didn't need to. 
We owned businesses, paid ALL our taxes, paid our workers above the going rate.
I worked in education as well as giving my time freely in various kinds of public service.
Our lifestyle was neither ostentatious or over-the-top. Comfortable, I'd say. 
Now our retirement income is being eroded by inflation at almost 5%. Interest rates on our investments are paltry.....the highest being 4%, the lowest 1%. 
Not enough for OH to live on which is ridiculous in view of the fact that she has a larger than average pension pot due to sale of business assets.
We live mainly off my pension income. We are lucky in that we do not have to worry about leaving money to my son when we kick the bucket as he is fairly well-off.
We have also seen a reduction in our income from the fall in the value of sterling.
We too have been affected by greed -but not our greed. By the greed of the asset-strippers, the speculators, the bankers, the whole rotten parasitical class that lives off the work of others.
Compared to the unemployed young who have no hope of work, a family, a real future, we are not so badly off. 
So please don't tell me about 'self-restraint' and 'saving'. You are adding insult to injury.
And remember this: if people didn't buy these little gadgets/toys -Blackberrys, IPods etc...that advertising rams down our throats and implies that life isn't worth living unless wqe have them....where would the shareholders of these companies get their dividends?
We live in a cesspit not of our making and like all s***, it stinks to high heaven..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> It is important that the movement is not at this stage associated with the unions, a party (new or old), or whatever - anything that has so miserably failed and/or is openly corrupt. That time may come if those organisations change but not yet.
> 
> .


The organisations will not change unless people get stuck in and change them.
And society will not change unless organisations change and reflect the will of the MAJORITY of the people.
But we've been through all this so all I can say is wait and see and don't build your hopes up.
Keep an eye on Greece - that is the flash point.
Spain is a sideshow compared to what is happening there.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The housing situation is very different in the UK to Spain. There is no shortage of housing here, so no need to expropriate the investment properties of individual hardworking savers like yourself. And of course in practice that would not happen in the UK either.
> 
> It's interesting that put all the blame for mortgage default on irresponsible borrowers. Were they supposed to know they would lose their jobs? Don't you think the institutions that encouraged them to borrow more than they could afford to pay back should be held accountable too? It was their greed that sparked off the biggest crisis of capital that the world has ever seen, after all.



I understood the OP was suggesting a similar law in Spain, as one practical step forward, in order to "


> make sure that your empty property is used for housing. We can make EDMOs on properties that have been empty for at least six months"


, which in all honesty, I don't think is practical at all and I don't think is a step forward. 

I don't put all the blame in the individal borrowers. I think banks should of course be held accountable. I blame our society in general, there wouldn't be greedy lenders withouth irresponsible borrowers. Were they supposed to know they would lose their jobs? No. But if there is no absolute job security, having a plan B never hurts. Neither does having a lifestyle within our means. 

Don't get me wrong> I support the movement, I am looking the possibility to join in Pontevedra once I am settled here for the summer, I think the focus should be job creation measures and rid ourselves of our corrupt politicians. To take up someone's rightly owned property for someone else to occupay it, doesn't come top of my list. If anything, I think it encourages more irresponsible borrowing.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> We did all the 'right' things. We worked and saved for our retirement. We never took a penny from the state in benefits - we were lucky and didn't need to.
> We owned businesses, paid ALL our taxes, paid our workers above the going rate.
> I worked in education as well as giving my time freely in various kinds of public service.
> Our lifestyle was neither ostentatious or over-the-top. Comfortable, I'd say.
> ...


What you mean adding insult to injury? ..."self - restraint" and "saving" or lack thereof is what has driven many people to banckupcy. Its only too easy to blame governments and institutions, and forget that lack of commons sense plays an important part too. 
As for your last bit....I don't understand what you mean, sorry.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

I noticed this argument of yours a few times, that systems should be changed from within by people joining parties, unions and organisations and influencing their views and actions. 

Throughout history though that has very rarely been a recipe for fundamental change. The method works perfectly for achieving longterm adjustments but is rather impotent faced with a desire for bigger shortterm movements in policy. It still might be the only way to achieve anything at all of course.

I must admit I dont really like the proposed "enforced tenants" idea. It has a nice cling to it and using empty housing for those in need can only invoke sympathy. The trouble is that it tampers with the liberty rights of private ownership, which in itself perhabs you could argue is justified and non-scandalous if its kept on a common-sense regulation kinda level, however any such moves tend to reflect back negatively on property prices, adds uncertainty to an already shaken sector and we have seen the massive problems pr and otherwise caused by the rather dubious usage of landgrab laws. In other words, the markets might react negatively shortterm in a situation when the very opposite is urgently needed and longterm the administration of such laws could be even more damaging in the hands of lets say "creatives".

Further, holding banks accountable and letting them pay for their obvious sins is just and fair. No doubt. I 100% agree. But it might be a medicine that severely injures not only the patient but his entire neighbourhood. The confidence in spanish banks (in every way from international credit rankings to word on the street) is already low, alot of them are in all likelyhood already insolvent in the sense that the property portfolios backing up the loans theyve given simply doesnt match the value of those loans anymore - however their accounts wont show that, yet, as theyre conveniently being incredibly slow at making the adjustments ... so what happens if theyre own up, pay their part of the party and face the music? Depends how its done of course, but alot of the weaker ones will simply fold without much question. Some of the bigger banks are equally exposed relatively but might have some room to maneuvre. But my guestimate would be that a majority of spanish banks are at this point bad papers that would easily be blown off the road ... even by a light breeze of financial justice.

Serves them all right you might say. And indeed. But even a best case scenarios where most are swallowed by bigger more solid banks would leave a devastating mess. Firstly, nobody in their right mind would swallow their huge portfolios of junk property loans. Secondly, few spanish banks would be looking to actually expand their branch network or private loan portfolios. The consequence would be that the state was forced into some form of intervention ... either rescuing the banks, or taking on their junk portfolios under one construction or the other. Either way is insanely expensive, further destroys the property market and potentially locks all investment capital ...thus solidifying the crisis further and deeper.




mrypg9 said:


> The organisations will not change unless people get stuck in and change them.
> And society will not change unless organisations change and reflect the will of the MAJORITY of the people.
> But we've been through all this so all I can say is wait and see and don't build your hopes up.
> Keep an eye on Greece - that is the flash point.
> Spain is a sideshow compared to what is happening there.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Morten very well said I think.

I believe the concept of working within a failed and corrupt organisation will as you suggest get nowhere. The corrupt know that change is likely to expose their past and current corruption. More transparency will expose their true motives and demonstrate their lack of abilities. Therefore they will resist change.

As for radical ideas put in simple terms, of course they have consequences and need to be debated, considered, formulated and implemented in a controlled way. Knee jerk reactions never help but faced with the current abject failure of the establishment to serve the people they are hardly surprising.

For example, despite the headlines, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting taking all the banks property and giving it away. I would be looking for longterm empty property (it has been empty and all reasonable indications are that it will remain so) being made available to local authorities and charities to house families. This would be based on maintaining the property and thus if anything increasing its value. There may even be rent payable. Of course if the banks were going to move a property onto the open market or make other use of it then so be it.

On the broader issue of a largely bankrupt banking sector I think a head in the sand approach will not work. There will be pain either short term or long term. Maybe better to take more of the pain now and give people their lives back. Again it needs open and transparent debate, consideration, formulation and implementation. The PP and PSOE have demonstrated that they cannot do that in their current forms. If they could then the movement would not be necessary.

Finally I think the PP and PSOE should forget external help. Either wake up and change or we will just trample over you. If for no other reason than millions of 23 to 40 year olds living with their aging parents without jobs, homes, families, pensions and/or hope will not wait much longer - they can't


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> I understood the OP was suggesting a similar law in Spain, as one practical step forward, in order to ", which in all honesty, I don't think is practical at all and I don't think is a step forward.
> 
> I don't put all the blame in the individal borrowers. I think banks should of course be held accountable. I blame our society in general, there wouldn't be greedy lenders withouth irresponsible borrowers. Were they supposed to know they would lose their jobs? No. But if there is no absolute job security, having a plan B never hurts. Neither does having a lifestyle within our means.
> 
> Don't get me wrong> I support the movement, I am looking the possibility to join in Pontevedra once I am settled here for the summer, I think the focus should be job creation measures and rid ourselves of our corrupt politicians. To take up someone's rightly owned property for someone else to occupay it, doesn't come top of my list. If anything, I think it encourages more irresponsible borrowing.


Sure, I was agreeing with you that this law would not be applicable in Spain, where housing ownership patterns are very different. But I do believe that repossessed properties should be used to rehouse the homeless.

You say there wouldn't be greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers? No, that is wrong. After the system was de-regulated, lenders were so keen to offer mortgages they came up more and more tempting deals to compete with each other for customers. You can't blame people for wanting to own their own home, and when the economy is booming and wages are rising, borrowing money to achieve this goal appears to be the right thing to do.

And what about the construction industry? They also borrowed huge amounts of money to build houses, which they now cannot sell so they are standing empty. Was that irresponsible and greedy? Or just an attempt to meet demand, in line with basic principles of economics?


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Greed comes from both sides with banks trying to lend more and more 'risky' money to individuals who are in turn opting to live beyond their means. I think its a bit unfair to try and solely blame either group, "it takes two to Tango".
Seems to me that peer pressure and stupidity as well as greed come into the equation somewhere.

Sorry not sure which banks are involved in the changing to rent scheme but La Caixia is, I think, one of them, certainly we know a Spanish family that has done it through them.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Here's a thing, what about the folk working away from home, ie in the Middle East say. 

I have many friends who work over there and who own a house in the UK, it is their home, they merely work and subsequently stay in places like Saudi Arabia because of said work. However, come vacation time many return to their homes and spend their time tidying them up, improving them so that when they eventually give up the grind of working in what is, (IMO) a doss hole (guess it depends on the company you work for) they have somewhere to go. If their house has been taken over by the Goverment in order to put a homeless family in them where do they go, do they in turn get put into someone elses home that the Goverment has taken over. Or are we to assume those that have been ousted from their homes because of this new law will suddenly find themselves, a) homeless b) without a leg to stand on because it suits the Goverment to ignore their plight because they surely brought it upon themselves.

I would hate to ever be in the position wherein I was placed into a house that has been taken over in such a fashion, surely others would too.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> What you mean adding insult to injury? ..."self - restraint" and "saving" or lack thereof is what has driven many people to banckupcy. Its only too easy to blame governments and institutions, and forget that lack of commons sense plays an important part too.
> As for your last bit....I don't understand what you mean, sorry.


It's easy to blame governments and financial institutions because it's clear to all but the most blinkered that they have not only allowed but have encouraged the orgy of borrowing and consumption and removed the safeguards that regulation brings.
It was the right-wing Greek Government, not the Greek people, that falsified their economic data so as to satisfy the Maastricht criteria and join the eurozone. 
It's the rich Greeks who don't pay their taxes, not ther waiters, mechanics, shop assistants who will be paying the price of the self-indulgence of these greedy, immoral people.
It was Conservative Governments and neo-con Governments in the U.K. and U.S. that adopted free market policies that laugh at self-restraint. 
Where was the restraint shown by Lehmann Brothers or by RBS and other banks?
Where is the restraint shown by Sir Fred Goodwin, disgraced and useless RBS boss who through greed almost bankrupted his bank by making the foolish acquisition of ABNAmro? 

And who bailed out the banks to ensure we got our pensions and wages paid and ATMs worked? Who pays the obscene pension of Sir Fred and his ilk?
The British taxpayer.....who had to come to the rescue because of the casino capitalism of the whole rotten system.
Where is the 'common sense' of these overpaid incompetents in charge of our financial institutions?

Greed, lack of restraint and extreme risk-taking are the lifeblood of free market capitalism.
Put blame where it belongs,on those who caused the misery, not on the victims.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Morten very well said I think.
> 
> I believe the concept of working within a failed and corrupt organisation will as you suggest get nowhere. The corrupt know that change is likely to expose their past and current corruption. More transparency will expose their true motives and demonstrate their lack of abilities. Therefore they will resist change.
> 
> ...


How long do you give this movement to achieve change? Six months? A year? Five years?
Unless there is a miracle, next year's elections will return a PP Government.
What chance of reforming the system before then? 
It's true that events occur quickly and unexpectedly. Who would have thought that the Soviet regime would fall apart? Or the Berlin Wall fall? Or a black man become President of the U.S.A.?
Historians tell us there were signs if you knew where to look and I'm sure that's true. Technology in the form of satellite tv enabled millions of repressed Russians, Poles, Czechs etc. to see that western capitalism could provide what their failed centrally planned systems couldn't. The demographics of the U.S. pointed towards the possibility of a non-Anglo-Saxon leader.
But history is created by humans so you can expect the unexpected.
I'd put my money on any real changes being made by politicians working within what_ is_ to create what _should_ be.
It will be interesting to dig up this thread in a year's time...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> Here's a thing, what about the folk working away from home, ie in the Middle East say.


No one is talking about taking any ones home 

In the UK the current ruling applies to landlords who are speculating. And then only when the building has been empty for a minimum of 6 months. 

In some areas of the UK old buildings left to go to ruin are being reclaimed by housing associations.

Mary cited the example where a council bought disused buildings to bring then back into use.

But rest assured that no ones home, occupied or not, is at risk from this


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> How long do you give this movement to achieve change? Six months? A year? Five years?


Interesting that you should ask this Mary. When one asks it of PSOE and PP they respond that they haven't a clue. Luckily for me DRY does.

The first thing I would say is we have already succeeded. 


Already politicians are being embarrassed into having to accept their failings and open up debate. 
Already the youth (those under 85) of the country are more engaged. That age thing is just incredible. 
Already difficult questions are being raised by the people they directly impact. 
Already many people who would before have been skeptical have seen how the movement behaves: peaceful, with purpose, openly, welcoming across society. Spain can be very proud indeed of these people:clap2:
And there is a new sense of unity across the membership. The debates seek common purpose, solutions and unity - not recognition, power and reward.

Over the next year you are right if you are saying we cannot expect to change the world before the next election. But we will certainly diminish the PP majority or even remove it all together. But they will also know every move they make will be scrutinised, publicised and criticised when appropriate.

Over the next 5 years hopefully we can get a new openness, transparency and seen fairness for all. And we need to reduce corruption within the spanish political world as much as we can - and hopefully spanish society..

I think those targets will be a test but with the spirit we see so far, the backing of many of the great thinkers including Sampedro, and with the horror that we have seen the traditionalists deliver after 36 years of their form of democracy - I think we will succeed.

Yes there are no miracle cures, it will be tough, there will be hardship; we know that - but leaving the future to a load of petty crooks and liars doesn't seem a very appealing alternative. And it is that above all which will spur us on 

Of course if you through your efforts get the PSOE to reject the corrupt, become more open and honest, listen to the people then who knows they may be part of it - but I'm not holding my breath :eyebrows:


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Right direction*

I think the term 'already' may be slightly optimistic but the aims are very laudable. Its a bit of a shame it wasn't presented like this on the now closed thread.
The future is to say the least uncertain, if Greece does leave Europe (at the moment I would give 50 / 50 odds at best) then the financial markets will shoot down. If it does leave Europe then others may follow, in particular Ireland and Portugal. The markets will then plummet as billions will have effectively been lost. A second dip or recession would be the inevitable result.
If it doesn't leave then its internal crisis will worsen, the justifiable outrage of the people will spill out and civil unrest will increase. You could even see European trools being brought in to assist, a frightening scenario but maybe not too unrealistic. What does this have to do with Spain and in particular DRy?
Unfortunately no country can now deal with its problems in isolation, globalisation has unfortunately effectively stopped that. For any political group to succeed it must look beyond it own countries problems and take into account the world situation, specifically for Spain the European one. I hope that DRy are doing this and formulating 'what if' scenarios. If they are, seeing the way the main parties are using blinkered vision, they could have a tremendous advantage even at the next election. 
Local problems and difficulties tend to be caused by National and now International issues and it is they that need to be dealt with to completely solve a local issue.
I hope they succeed, I actually have had my mind changed seeing the news and events over the last week unfolding plus this post. I think they stand a chance, at the moment slim, but it is there for the taking. I hope they make it, the next twelve months will tell!



nigele2 said:


> Interesting that you should ask this Mary. When one asks it of PSOE and PP they respond that they haven't a clue. Luckily for me DRY does.
> 
> The first thing I would say is we have already succeeded.
> 
> ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> I hope they succeed, I actually have had my mind changed seeing the news and events over the last week unfolding plus this post. I think they stand a chance, at the moment slim, but it is there for the taking. I hope they make it, the next twelve months will tell!


Muchas gracias amigo. I hope we have people as strong as you within the movement. I'm lost for words.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Interesting that you should ask this Mary. When one asks it of PSOE and PP they respond that they haven't a clue. Luckily for me DRY does.
> 
> The first thing I would say is we have already succeeded.
> 
> ...


I have spent most of my life in the naive hope that through political action I could make the world a better place. It's in a far worse shape now than when I first got involved as an eighteen-year-old CND member and Communist
I haven't given up and am still active in policy formation in my union but I'm afraid I've seen a lot of hopes dashed. That's why I'm always on the side of caution.
I think that there is no doubt that PP will win the next election. Dry do not as yet have the apolitical majority on their side. 
In our municipality, our PSOE ex-Mayor was without doubt the 'good guy'...the man in the white hat in 'Shane'. His heart was and is in the right place.
Unfortunately he was less than a responsible manager. As I said before, we have astronomical debt...but in our village alone a new infant school, cultural centre, pavements etc.
The new PP Mayor is not someone I'd invoite to my dinner table. He is a traditional 'church, family and authority' right-winger.
But I have a feeling that he will be a better manager of the town's finances. He has hit the ground running with new and very popular initiatives.
If people are given a choice between authority and anarchy they will choose the former.
That's understandable but dangerous for democracy.

Off-topic I know but;

Churchill once said that the best argument against democracy was to hold a five-minute conversation with an 'average' voter.....


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Tonights the night*

I suspect that tonight in Greece the potential fate for Europe will be decided. Europe will, I think, survive but damaged. There has to be a moral somewhere in the fact that one of the smallest and poorest countries in the EEC now has the power, albeit unwanted power, to effect everybody else, probably right round the world.

As for DRy I did say a slim chance, certainly at the next election but with all that is happening at the moment stranger things have come to pass..........To again paraphrase Terry Pratchett 'We live in interesting times"! 



mrypg9 said:


> I have spent most of my life in the naive hope that through political action I could make the world a better place. It's in a far worse shape now than when I first got involved as an eighteen-year-old CND member and Communist
> I haven't given up and am still active in policy formation in my union but I'm afraid I've seen a lot of hopes dashed. That's why I'm always on the side of caution.
> I think that there is no doubt that PP will win the next election. Dry do not as yet have the apolitical majority on their side.
> In our municipality, our PSOE ex-Mayor was without doubt the 'good guy'...the man in the white hat in 'Shane'. His heart was and is in the right place.
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Greed, lack of restraint and extreme risk-taking are the lifeblood of free market capitalism.
> Put blame where it belongs,on those who caused the misery, not on the victims.


Absolutely. When a businessman takes a financial risk he is praised for being enterprising; when a bus driver does it, he is called irresponsible.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Another small but significant step: positive action to stamp out _enchufismo_ (favouritism or nepotism) in the allocation of places for youth training workshops in Andalucia.

Diario de Jerez - El Defensor denuncia el oscurantismo y el 'enchufismo' en los...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*Interview with 15 M spokesperson*

Here is an interview with Jon Aguirre, one of the spokespersons for the 15 M movement. It's in Spanish, but here are some of the main ideas.
Audio: Jon Aguirre, en 'Hoy por Hoy': "Se está empezando a hablar de cierto referéndum y cierta huelga general" en CADENASER.com

I've put the most interesting parts in blue. (OK almost everything is in blue). It's easy reading...

Yesterday = 19 June
Interviewer: There are people who want to bury this movement
15 M: A lot of people are very nervous, not just here , but in Europe. We are very organised, although there's still a lot to do

Q: A democracy is a democracy and that's it, isn't it?
A: Well, no. You have to qualify it in some way. .. The public can't take part in the decision making process.

Q: Where is the criticism centred? Do you accept institutions or not? Or are you after the parties more?
A: We accept parties and institutions. They have to exist. What we don't accept is the way the operate/ work

Q: What route plan do you have for short and mid term?
A: On the 15th of October there may be an international demonstration. There's also talk of a general strike and a referendum (He didn't give more details)

Q: Isn't it time to start making concrete objectives and to focus on tangible things?
A: It's unjust to ask a movement that has been operating for a month to have concrete objectives. It's unfair to ask us to do things that the politicians haven't done in the last few years

Q: Who pays and who's in control?
A: My mother pays me! (He's 26 years old finishing up his degree)

Q: Why should democratically elected politicians have to take notice of you?
A: Politicians are constantly modifying our conditions of life. They should ask the people if they really agree with cutbacks in social conditions.

Q: How can politicians take your demands and include them in their projects?
A: By listening to the people/ the country that spoke yesterday. They know very well what the people want. We don't have to co ordinate with politicians because they know what we want. We don't represent anybody. The people are their own representative. What we are saying to the politicians is that they should start putting things into action

15 M: It's mistake to think that the only way (Forward) is through contact with politicians. There are ways in which citizens can intervene in public life and we also want to create new ways to participate a lot more which include changing the electoral law


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Another small but significant step: positive action to stamp out _enchufismo_ (favouritism or nepotism) in the allocation of places for youth training workshops in Andalucia.
> 
> Diario de Jerez - El Defensor denuncia el oscurantismo y el 'enchufismo' en los...


That's interesting, Dolores Cospedal (PP) has announced that she wants to do away with the Defensor del Pueblo de Castilla de la Mancha to cut costs


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely. When a businessman takes a financial risk he is praised for being enterprising; when a bus driver does it, he is called irresponsible.


You have to take a certain amount of risk in business to stay in the game.....but taking risks isn't the same as gambling.
These obscenely overpaid hedge fund managers and other Masters of the Universe are allegedly paid so much because of their skills in managing risk......
Yet they screwed up big time and are still being rewarded for these supposed talents.............
And what of the 'logic' that says you have to depress wages and benefits at the lower end of the scale to get people into work (some Tory twerp was suggesting earlier this week that people with mental illnesses should work for less than the Minimum Wage) but those in the top echelons must be paid more or we'll lose them???
Some loss.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's clear that to get the people back to work public money must be invested in job creation.
A huge amount will be needed to cut the 21% unemployment figure.
The money has to be borrowed by the selling of Treasury Bonds.
Currently the spread on Spanish as against German Bonds isn't too alarming.
But given the below 1% current growth rate the very intention to adopt such Keynesian policies will send the Bond yields up several % points.
There is a chain here: people's demands- positive government response -pressure from markets- soaring interest rates-increase in national debt and deficit- governments forced to seek emergency loans -abandonment of social policies and adoption of the usual package of cuts, asset sell-offs etc..
Greece, Portugal and Ireland as we know have been forced by the IMF into self-defeating retrenchment policies which have not only damaged the economy further but have imposed savage cuts on working people.
How can this chain be broken?
One thing is -or should be - crystal clear: there is a need for a huge injection of funds into the Spanish economy. Without the necessary resources, nothing can be done, however many people fill public squares.
Reforming voting systems may be urgent but it's of secondary importance compared to stimulating the economy.
I've probably missed it but...what does the 'movement' see as the way to attract the needed capital investment for job creation schemes and other reforms when the market holds a gun to the heads of would-be reformers?
That is THE key question.
Watch Greece. What happens there in the next three weeks will determine what happens in Spain and elsewhere.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It's clear that to get the people back to work public money must be invested in job creation.


Very true Mary and with money in such short supply just as important will be the decisions regarding how and where it is spent. I ask myself who decided the strategy in the following case:

In Gijon investment has been made and a port has been created. It employs very few due to its automation. It seems to have one purpose - export raw materials so they can be processed outside Spain. This despite the industrial experience of the people of Asturias. Can this possibly be in the long term interests of Spain?

Of course money will be needed as seen in the recent post regarding the UK electronic car company setting up a factory in Galicia (11000Es per job if I remember right). 

But when it is spent I hope it is spent well and that as little as possible is siphoned off for the chorizos


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Sure, I was agreeing with you that this law would not be applicable in Spain, where housing ownership patterns are very different. But I do believe that repossessed properties should be used to rehouse the homeless.
> 
> You say there wouldn't be greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers? No, that is wrong. After the system was de-regulated, lenders were so keen to offer mortgages they came up more and more tempting deals to compete with each other for customers. You can't blame people for wanting to own their own home, and when the economy is booming and wages are rising, borrowing money to achieve this goal appears to be the right thing to do.
> 
> And what about the construction industry? They also borrowed huge amounts of money to build houses, which they now cannot sell so they are standing empty. Was that irresponsible and greedy? Or just an attempt to meet demand, in line with basic principles of economics?


See, that's the problem with leftists. They leave little room for individual responsability and decision making. And their consecuences.. I assume that people have brains of their own and can see that there are no good deals, especially when they come from banks. 

Yes they wouldn't be greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers. 

What happened during the last seven years or so was that your average village idiot , which let me asure you there are many out here, on a bogus temporary work contract could suddendly buy his dream mansion together with loans for a sports car and the senora's boob job. He is not the real victim, you are, together with your prudent hard working neighbours and the hopeless young that have to endure now the public cuts, lower standards of health care and education, less help, the prospect of a future without a real job.. 
More regulation is of course needed as well as making mortgages far less available , but I have little sympathy for those who borrowed with no control knowing that they couldn possibly pay back. They wanted their piece of an imaginary cake and got what they bargained for. 

Furthermore I think home ownership and being tied up to a mortgage is not for everyone, much less for young professional families that need to be mobile and go where work goes. Nowadays one simply needs to pack up and go where is required. Because if you are stuck with your mortgage and the factory you've been working for closed down and moves elsewhere, you are pretty much screwed. 

As the problem with housing, yes plenty available, Spain should be able to find a reasonable solution without having to resort to take other people;s properties. . There used to be help for low income families in terms of housing and financial assistance, not sure they are still there, and I fear we will see these go eventually if we have to endure more cuts. There were also abundant hospedage housing for homeless whith private rooms, bathrooms and cantines, which when I used to volunteer in my student years, were always almost empty because the homeless prefered to be either in the streets or okuping empty houses. I was involved with Caritas, even thought I am not a particularly religious person.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

As for the construction companies....Well they made their money (which most must be hiding somewhere) and they continued to make money a year after the crisis started. 

Las grandes constructoras españolas duplican sus ganancias en un año de crisis


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

I suspect it is more complicated with the construction industry. I think we are all well aware that much of the money used to fund these building projects is black, I would go further and suggest even laundered. To make it worse most of the money, it is suggested, is Eastern European, so the returns will eventually go back to Eastern Europe. The result temporary work for some Spanish people, a lot for Rumanians etc and then back to nothing. Hardly seems reasonable or fair and this is a subject which needs to be addressed, locally at council level, nationally and even right across Western Europe as it is happening to some extent in every country. When we talk about corruption this is one of the prime areas of activity.

The trouble is that the economy is shot in almost every area. Valencia has just announced a black hole of 1.3 billion, yes Billion, euros in unpaid medical bills from other countries in Europe for reciprocal medical care for expats. They say they are close to bankruptcy because of this. Bad management or other countries like the UK not playing the game?

I don't actually envy any party which gets in at the next election, there are messes to sort out and then there are real screw ups and this is one of them. The unfortunate thing is that the party which does successfully sort it out may destroy itself with the public in the process. A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Good news on Greece, or is it? Next three or four weeks will tell!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

My bank manager bless him often sits and talks to me about the 'crisis'. One of the things he told me was the problem he had found with folk is that when money was being offered, they didnt stop to think about its being repaid. Add to this the fact that the EU were giving money to Spain hand over fist for seemingly anything and everything, ie, producing olives, not producing olives, new tractor, brand new facilities in the villages and fact is a lot of people took advantage when they found themselves being given money and so able to buy that new Audi or a nice new flat by the beach. Now however, the pensions have stopped and all these folk who were using their allowances to pay for these things suddenly have to find the money from somewhere else. Thing is, as my bank manager would tell you if he were on this site, most of these folk are rich in property, ie they have several houses already and indeed some have a great deal of money, but they are loathe to dipping into it. Instead they would rather have the flat repossessed. Maybe it all stems back to the Franco years, where you hoarded what you had for leaner times, or maybe they are just tight wads who want something for nothing and get all antsy when things go wrong. I honestly do not know. Saying that, there are a great many houses / flats etc in Tortosa in a run down state that are owned by families who have no intention of doing anything with them because they do not have to, they have somewhere to live and besides doing the places up would cost them money. So maybe this idea of taking over empty properties isn't so bad an idea. As long as it fairly. But not against those who are merely leaving their property empty because they work away or the like.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

At the moment on our road near Alicante they are laying pavements, who is paying I haven't a clue. It seems a bit pointless as most of the road is in the countryside with no houses....
In Almeria near Los Lobos they have obtained funding to put a cycle track in the riverbed plus gardens, plus sweet little bridges for cyclists to use. By the way in a Gota Fria the river becomes a torrent.....i am told its European funding.
In Villaricos they have dug up the car park, concreted the riverbed to cater for flood water (same river as at Los Lobos of course just further down.
In Cuevas del Almanzora they have completely cleared another riverbed, it looks lovely. All, I am told, European funding. I suppose you have to spend the money that nobody has really got on something that probably nobody really wants. Seems like a good plan! I wonder who owns the construction company.......
The arena next to the riverbed, built only a few years ago for motorcyle stunt riding etc, is now derelict and unused. Wonder who paid for that?
Getting control of all of this is going to be a massive task!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Happyexpat said:


> At the moment on our road near Alicante they are laying pavements, who is paying I haven't a clue. It seems a bit pointless as most of the road is in the countryside with no houses....
> In Almeria near Los Lobos they have obtained funding to put a cycle track in the riverbed plus gardens, plus sweet little bridges for cyclists to use. By the way in a Gota Fria the river becomes a torrent.....i am told its European funding.
> In Villaricos they have dug up the car park, concreted the riverbed to cater for flood water (same river as at Los Lobos of course just further down.
> In Cuevas del Almanzora they have completely cleared another riverbed, it looks lovely. All, I am told, European funding. I suppose you have to spend the money that nobody has really got on something that probably nobody really wants. Seems like a good plan! I wonder who owns the construction company.......
> ...


Years back the EU declared that all legal houses even those in the Campo should have, mains electric, sewage, water and roads provided to them. In order that Spain could comply with this ruling the EU gave them billions. 

Whallop, up went fancy new Firal buildings, Wham, up went fancy football stadiums with floodlights, bham the streets in the towns were given a face lift. New carparks were built, new fountains installed, everything the people didnt actually need but sure as heck looked good on paperwork when it came to voting time. 

Thing is no roads, no water, no sewage, no electric was laid to all the legal houses in the Campo. No instead the Catalan Goverment moved the goalposts and declared all previously legal houses had to apply and be granted a new kind of paperwork. Cedula d'Habilitilidad, which they made near as damn it impossible for folk to actually get, thus circumventing the problem of misappropriation of funds.

In my local village alone near enough a million euros was spent on building the new Firal Recinte building which is nothing short of an eyesore not to mention waste of money simply because it is open air and provides no shelter from rain on account the roof is so high up the rain just slants in through the sides. Shortly after it was constructed the Ajuntament then decided what it needed was a museum, so they applied for and were granted another 200,000 plus in order that one could be built inside the Firal building. 
Shortly afterwards the law was changed and the licence for said museum was revoked so now we have a building within a building that is closed because it doesnt have a licence to operate.
Next came the swimming pool, whoop whoop, wrong, it was officially opened last September, (they heath robinson'd the electrics etc in order to meet the official opening) and was due to open in May. It is still not open, due to the fact that they didnt fit enough solar panels etc and the pumps cannot keep the pool clean enough for folk to use. The Ajuntament then decided that the local cemetry needed painting (outside) because the brown stains were unsightly, I wonder what could be making them? Anyhow, they paid a guy to paint it, but instead of taking off the snaf-food plaster he was just told to paint over it, and paint over it, and paint over it, well you get the gist. Then they decided that the main road on which the Ajuntament sits on needed a huge face lift and so spent hundreds of thousands pulling out all the old kerb stones, old tarmac etc etc (and dumping the waste in the Campo, not disposing of it correctly) when the road was perfectly sound and the kerb stones as good as they were when first put in. 
Then they decided to take credit for the relaying of the road which leads to my finca, even putting it on their election papers, but when we and my neighbours all complained over their shoddy work they first denied it had anything to do with them then admitted the EU paid for it but that they had cut corners.

Now we have learnt they have just received a massive influx of cash from the Catalunian Government for keeping their bottoms on their seats of power and we in the village and outlaying community are wondering just what rubbish they will spend it on next.
Not relaying our road that is for sure.
Yet for some reason no one will stand against the Alcalde and no one dares to question simply because "she is of the village" and folk like me and the other extranjeros aren't.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Wow and I thought we had it bad! 
The Cedula d'habilitididad is an interesting concept which they have also used here. It appears that new houses have to have a ceiling of a minimum height, don't know what it is and don't really care, you will see why in a minute.
Now older Fincas like ours with a flat roof have got a lower ceiling which doesn't conform to the new regs. Result my Finca has been acknowledged as there, they have acknowledged we live there (padron, suma etc), they have laid the tarmac road to it, I have a street light, electricity, post box, rubbish collection, house number and even white lines on the road marking my entry. What I haven't got and can't get is the Cedula d'habilitididad unless I lower my floor or raise the roof which in turn means I can't get mains water, not that I could afford it anyway at a minimum of 15000 euros for a 50 metre run.
We love Spain, we love living in Spain but their systems drive you completely up the wall! Logic has got nothing to do with it! By the way they are not just picking on us, half the village has the same problem and they are all Spanish.
We have just been told that they are going to 'do up' our village square, used twice per year for the Fiesta. There's only 85 houses so I am sure that its going to be a really good and worthwhile investment.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

"Wow and I thought we had it bad!"

What concerns me most about this is that it illustrates just how corruption is so deeply embedded in Spanish society and as Happyexpat says how tough it is going to be to sort it out.

There are just so many examples of stupidity when it comes to public spending in Spain.
I'm assuming that most alcaldes and politicos are not stupid.
Therefore deliberate misappropriation of public money is commonplace.
I assume misappropriation of public money is illegal (although of what I have seen of the spanish legal system nothing would surprise me )
therefore their should be hundreds of prosecutions being pursued.

but there aren't


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

It's a neat trick don't you think, move the goalposts and so disappear the problem of you being given money for something and not using it for said because there are no legal houses and so you don't have to.

Now I personally don't want mains electric, mains sewage, mains water, or even a tarmac road in particular, folk only drive up them to see where they go. But what I would like is for the numpts in power to stop telling me I am illegal because I don't have a Cedula, whilst in the next breath taxing me till my eyes bleed.

Now several estate agents have been telling folk there is a way around the Cedula and like most desperate folk will do some are grasping at their offering. You register the house as a Vivienda, now to those who don't know the difference a Vivienda is not strictly considered as being a house, it is a dwelling and by registering it as such you could end up reducing the value of your pride and joy considerably especially when it comes to selling. 
Now for some it isn't a problem, but for those of us who were legal before the Cedula it irks us something chronic that some corrupt official can move the goal posts just so he the EU doesnt catch sight of his scamming the system so he can get voted in again for another term.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

And there was me thinking that all the problems in Spain were caused by the global financial crisis.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Silly question and probably showing my ignorance but I am getting confused. I have been watching the Spanish news and Euro news.
They are quoting the popular movement on the streets of Spain, but can't seem to stick to one name.
I have seen Democracia Real Ya, democracia financial, 15th, Cambia and others. Are they all part of the same group or this what I feared, a diverse collection of people with different agendas, ideas and leaders. 
As for sorting out the corruption where do they estart, at the bottom, the middle, the top or even Brussels. Its endemic and won't easily go away. Even if it does I am sorry to say that it will come back, power always corrupts and attracts the corruptible!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> Silly question and probably showing my ignorance but I am getting confused. I have been watching the Spanish news and Euro news.
> They are quoting the popular movement on the streets of Spain, but can't seem to stick to one name.I have seen Democracia Real Ya, democracia financial, 15th, Cambia and others. Are they all part of the same group or this what I feared, a diverse collection of people with different agendas, ideas and leaders.


At this stage I think of it as a jelly. Still early stages. And of course there are different levels of activity: the camps (more M-15), the local debates, the international aspect, etc. But most importantly there is common purpose  

Doubt this statement from London helps much but here goes:

_"The platform that called the demonstration on the 15M has been our reference during the past weeks, but Democracia Real Ya released a statement by which they dissociated themselves from the camps, highlighting that they still supported them but could not claim to encompass them as they were a wider movement than the platform. However, many of the claims detailed in their manifesto could still form the basis of the 15M. The London Assembly is still too young an organisation so as to establish a manifesto of its own, due to the lack of experience compared to other camps in other cities."_ 



Happyexpat said:


> As for sorting out the corruption where do they start, at the bottom, the middle, the top or even Brussels. Its endemic and won't easily go away. Even if it does I am sorry to say that it will come back, power always corrupts and attracts the corruptible!


Tough question. I think one needs to address it at different levels all at the same time as if you accept corruption at one level how can you criticise it at another? - and it will take decades. I know some people here hate any criticism of Spain and the Spanish but (Incoming lane their is a form of corruption in Spain that is beyond that commonly found in Northern Europe. When a solicitor quite openly asks you in a room of 7 people to what level you want to rip off the authorities - I'm still amazed.

I know many Spaniards who see it just as a tit for tat and until the chain is broken I guess there is little hope.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> See, that's the problem with leftists. They leave little room for individual responsability and decision making. And their consecuences.. I assume that people have brains of their own and can see that there are no good deals, especially when they come from banks.



Could I ask how removing democratic decision making beyond the reach of what you obviously see as your stupid irresponsible compatriots leaves 'room for individual responsibility and decision -making'?

Decisions affecting the lives of decent hard-working men and women are taken at a level over which no 'ordinary voter' has control...and that's just how neo-con free marketeers like it.

Where's the room for individual decision making over nthe policies of the WTO, the IMF, the EU? And don't tell me we have the European Parliament....the real power lies with the Commissioners.

According to your view, the greater percentage of the population of Spain, Greece etc. are mindless morons who deserve their fate.

Whilst one might think that to be true, given the recent vote for the PP, a party which allies itself to many of those failed free market policies, I see it as a view which shows contempt for people who through no fault of their own have seen their lives plunged into uncertainty by idiot politicians.

As for saying there are no good deals from banks...rubbish. We ran successful businesses and bought investment properties with very good deals from banks. 
Some bankers may be villains -the ones who share your contempt for the intelligence of working people, perhaps? - but without banks neither you nor I would have computers to use for our arguments, cash from those neat littkle holes-ion -the-wall, ou5r salaries/pensions/dividends paid etc.etc.etc.

Blaming powerless people for the consequences of their failed policies....that's the problem with these right-wingers


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> As for sorting out the corruption where do they estart, at the bottom, the middle, the top or even Brussels. Its endemic and won't easily go away. Even if it does I am sorry to say that it will come back, power always corrupts and attracts the corruptible!


I feel the same way, but I do think the level of corruption in Spain can, and should, be lowered. Enforcing legislation that is already in place and introducing new laws to increase transparency would be a good first step IMO.
It's easy to come across corruption in Spain and when comparing with the UK I think many have a tendency to believe that there is no corruption in their home country. I think there is however, but more deeply hidden and therefore, potentially, more dangerous.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's easy to come across corruption in Spain and when comparing with the UK I think many have a tendency to believe that there is no corruption in their home country. I think there is however, but more deeply hidden and therefore, potentially, more dangerous.


 Remember the multi million pounds worth of computers found in a certain NHS establishment in the southwest. Around me dubious strips of land blocking access to sites that suddenly get planning permission, the numerous cases of insider trading that go through the courts, ....

However I think in the UK, Scandinavia, Germany and other richer European countries on the whole there is more of an acceptance that corruption and fraud are crimes. Perpetrators try to hide what they are doing which infers a clear awareness of right and wrong. And cases of corruption within the legal system are rare. And when people are caught there is a sense of justice.

This means there is more chance that the problem can be tackled with the cooperation of the populous as a whole.

Somehow when in Spain a solicitor invites me to quite openly break the law it somehow feels much less of a crime. Even more so when the neighbours look at me although I am mad for not doing so  In the UK I think most people would say "I pay my taxes, why shouldn't you?".

I guess one could get involved with the old question "is taking a paperclip from your place of work theft? a packet of paper clips? the entire contents of the stationery cupboard? .....


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

A doctor friend of my son told him that the people of Catalunya (perhaps the whole of Spain) are so afraid of going back to Franco times they are actually going backwards to the time before he ever came onto the scene. Whilst they like to have all the toys, the latest gadgets etc their mindset is somewhere in the far distant past. Which to my mind is pretty dire. 
He also went on to say that corruption was like the air that they breathed, because no one can imagine what it would be like if it wasn't so, they won't actually get off their butts and do something about it just in case they ended up cutting off their airsupply.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Could I ask how removing democratic decision making beyond the reach of what you obviously see as your stupid irresponsible compatriots leaves 'room for individual responsibility and decision -making'?
> 
> Decisions affecting the lives of decent hard-working men and women are taken at a level over which no 'ordinary voter' has control...and that's just how neo-con free marketeers like it.
> 
> ...


I didn't say the greater percentage, but yes, i have met one too many Pepe's millionare splashing around money that he didn't have and finding himself in a rather uncomfortable situation right now. I'm surprised you haven't met any down there in Marbella. 
It is only too easy to put the blame on the system and victimise those same people whose lifestyle has been beyond their means. 
Mind you, Psoes policies are also responsible for the bubble, they encoraged an incredibly corrupt system with regards to the sales of the socalled "viviendas protegidas", their policies also encouraged home ownership as opposed to renting which put many lower income families in a position where they had no other choice than to get into mortgages that they couldn't afford. Compared to say Germany, whose policies encourage renting as opposed to home ownership. 

You are right about the banks and I take it back. There have been and continue to be many prudent, well thought deals behind great successes. I guess one could say that there are not greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers just as there are sensible lenders for responsible borrowers..


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*How true*

Totally agree. Whereas in Spain, in fact I would include most of the Med basin, corruption and graft are an accepted way of life and thus overt in the UK it is not. It is therefore covert. I suspect, in fact know, that corruption exists at council levels and strongly suspect at Government ones in the UK. Look at the trouble they are having with defence procurement. It would have taken a complete idiot to sign some of the existing contracts or a very good reason to do so..........
I am not sure that attempting to enforce existing laws or making new ones is the real answer. There needs to be an initial culture change and, unfortunately, I am not sure they really want that. In many cases they use the corruption to their advantage, black money etc. The trouble is that stopping corruption should be an all or nothing situation.


Pesky Wesky said:


> I feel the same way, but I do think the level of corruption in Spain can, and should, be lowered. Enforcing legislation that is already in place and introducing new laws to increase transparency would be a good first step IMO.
> It's easy to come across corruption in Spain and when comparing with the UK I think many have a tendency to believe that there is no corruption in their home country. I think there is however, but more deeply hidden and therefore, potentially, more dangerous.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Problem*

This of course is the issue. To obtain change needs a mandate to do so. If the group trying to get change is made up of different groups with different agendas then the mandate and vote will be split. Back to square one. I take back what I thought DRy should first do. They, in my opinion, need to get a consensus from the individual groups and then prepare a mandate for the people which all can agree on. This would then worry the present Government far more than individual groups where they know the vote will be split and they will win by default.


nigele2 said:


> At this stage I think of it as a jelly. Still early stages. And of course there are different levels of activity: the camps (more M-15), the local debates, the international aspect, etc. But most importantly there is common purpose
> 
> Doubt this statement from London helps much but here goes:
> 
> _"The platform that called the demonstration on the 15M has been our reference during the past weeks, but Democracia Real Ya released a statement by which they dissociated themselves from the camps, highlighting that they still supported them but could not claim to encompass them as they were a wider movement than the platform. However, many of the claims detailed in their manifesto could still form the basis of the 15M. The London Assembly is still too young an organisation so as to establish a manifesto of its own, due to the lack of experience compared to other camps in other cities."_


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> They, in my opinion, need to get a consensus from the individual groups and then prepare a mandate for the people which all can agree on.


Perhaps it helps looking at it in a different way. In my company when we undertake a project we typically:

1 Define the task.
2 We then have a no holds barred brain dump. This consists of just shouting out any ideas no matter how crazy and listing them. That way no matter how crazy no options are missed and everyone participates.
3. We then set off one, two or more research projects/prototypes.
4. We then see what we have learned, choose the best option and create the plan.
5. And finally put our plans into action.

Throughout we spend a lot of time communicating to ensure the solution meets the clients needs and that they can buy in on our solution.

Such a project lasts for us from three months to two years.

I think the movement has completed number one and is undertaking number 2. At the same time a few prototypes (number three) are being tested out on a small scale. That after just a few weeks!

It is tempting to push ahead with not fully thought through plans that are not accepted by the people and that would make the movement no better than the PP or PSOE and we know that strategy does not work 

If one considers that the ship is sinking a rushed approach might seem prudent but I see it more as the ship has sunk and the movement is carrying out a salvage operation 

But the next two months and we may see much more lane:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Totally agree. Whereas in Spain, in fact I would include most of the Med basin, corruption and graft are an accepted way of life and thus overt in the UK it is not. It is therefore covert. I suspect, in fact know, that corruption exists at council levels and strongly suspect at Government ones in the UK. Look at the trouble they are having with defence procurement. It would have taken a complete idiot to sign some of the existing contracts or a very good reason to do so..........


Corruption in the UK is massive. The problem is, it's mostly been legalised.

Think arms deals with Saudi Arabia - fraud investigation mysteriously halted. Tesco planning applications in the green belt magically approved. F1 sponsorship ban by tobacco companies unaccountably delayed. Vodafone's £4 billion tax bill conveniently waived ...

Not to mention the illegal graft - €100m pa drug industry in Britain's prisons??? Is the home office employing blind wardens or something?

Government complacent about level of UK corruption, claims campaign group | Society | The Guardian


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Corruption in the UK is massive. The problem is, it's mostly been legalised.
> 
> Think arms deals with Saudi Arabia - fraud investigation mysteriously halted. Tesco planning applications in the green belt magically approved. F1 sponsorship ban by tobacco companies unaccountably delayed. Vodafone's £4 billion tax bill conveniently waived ...
> 
> ...


I was just about to reply to Nigel saying I was thinking more of the arms trade, drugs, business mafias etc. As happyexpat said
in Spain and other countries...


> corruption and graft are an accepted way of life and thus overt in the UK it is not. It is therefore covert.


Just 'cos it's not on the surface doesn't mean to say it's not there, and I believe the stuff that goes on underground is big stuff.

Anyway:focus:


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Consensus*

Excellent and exactly the way I used to do it when I was running a marketing Co. Surely though between maybe 2 and 3, if not before, you have to get everybody on board, heading in the same direction under one banner? They can still have their own views and agendas which will be melded into the final manifesto. You may lose some of the more radical fringe elements in the process but I would again suggest maybe no loss....

I don't think it is sunk yet but very badly holed. I think I would prefer, to use your analogy, to get the ship home with its passengers than to have many drown while we let it sink.....



nigele2 said:


> Perhaps it helps looking at it in a different way. In my company when we undertake a project we typically:
> 
> 1 Define the task.
> 2 We then have a no holds barred brain dump. This consists of just shouting out any ideas no matter how crazy and listing them. That way no matter how crazy no options are missed and everyone participates.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> Excellent and exactly the way I used to do it when I was running a marketing Co. Surely though between maybe 2 and 3, if not before, you have to get everybody on board, heading in the same direction under one banner? They can still have their own views and agendas which will be melded into the final manifesto. You may lose some of the more radical fringe elements in the process but I would again suggest maybe no loss....
> 
> I don't think it is sunk yet but very badly holed. I think I would prefer, to use your analogy, to get the ship home with its passengers than to have many drown while we let it sink.....


But it's not 15 M or whatever you want to call them that's the ship in Nigels post



> If one considers that the ship is sinking a rushed approach might seem prudent but I see it more as the ship has sunk and the movement is carrying out a salvage operation


They're carrying out the rescue operation, not doing the sinking!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> See, that's the problem with leftists. They leave little room for individual responsability and decision making. And their consecuences.. I assume that people have brains of their own and can see that there are no good deals, especially when they come from banks.
> 
> Yes they wouldn't be greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers.
> 
> ...


Well, I see we have an actual _desahucio _repossession case on the forum, asking for help and advice. Perhaps you'd like to go and tell Bethany it´s her own fault, for being an irresponsible borrower. I'm sure that would make her feel a whole lot better.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

I am only too well aware of what is sinking / sunk and the comment was I think valid. The comment was not about 15m or whatever the name is today (joke) personally I think they were better off sticking just with DRy as the name but its only my opinion.
On a slightly different subject but linked, its looks like the UK is stuck with the Greek bailout, what a surprise!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Happyexpat said:


> I am only too well aware of what is sinking / sunk and the comment was I think valid. The comment was not about 15m or whatever the name is today (joke) personally I think they were better off sticking just with DRy as the name but its only my opinion.
> On a slightly different subject but linked, its looks like the UK is stuck with the Greek bailout, what a surprise!


Hasn't Cameron said because the UK isn't part of the Euro, the UK shouldnt have too and won't bail out someone who is? Or has he done another about turn?

In my opinion there is no solution for Greece, their Government is being tasked with putting into place austerity measures whilst the people are revolting against them In truth there is surely no other option than to tighten their belts till their belly's are touching their backbone. Or is there? What other options exist that will successfully get them out of this mess they are in. Would declaring the country completely and utterly bankrupt ensure the people maintained their standards of living? 
Will the austerity measures mean people starve/lose their homes, if it is the latter who would gain by it? The banks? 
It surely is a minefield, one other countries are about to step into I fear (and all without a map).


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> Hasn't Cameron said because the UK isn't part of the Euro, the UK shouldnt have too and won't bail out someone who is? Or has he done another about turn?
> 
> In my opinion there is no solution for Greece, their Government is being tasked with putting into place austerity measures whilst the people are revolting against them In truth there is surely no other option than to tighten their belts till their belly's are touching their backbone. Or is there? *What other options exist that will successfully get them out of this mess they are in?*. Would declaring the country completely and utterly bankrupt ensure the people maintained their standards of living?
> Will the austerity measures mean people starve/lose their homes, if it is the latter who would gain by it? The banks?
> It surely is a minefield, one other countries are about to step into I fear (and all without a map).


Well, as Mrypg9 pointed out earlier, if all the shipping magnates and other billionaires who can afford to be creative with their accounting paid their taxes to the Greek government, the deficit could be wiped out at a stroke.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, as Mrypg9 pointed out earlier, if all the shipping magnates and other billionaires who can afford to be creative with their accounting paid their taxes to the Greek government, the deficit could be wiped out at a stroke.


Hmmm, now I wonder how likely that is going to be, oh I know, about as likely as Icarus opening up a new budget airline, that's how likely.

Of course they could seize the tax dodgers assets, which would pay off the bill probably 10 fold, but then that wouldn't be too popular with the big fish in the pond would it. And if you are being paid to look the other way, as surely someone somewhere must be doing in order they have gotten away with it in the first place, well they might get a bit nasty, don't you think.

So apart from making the dodgers cough up, what other solutions do the Greek government have? :juggle:


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Unfortunately the UK is a part of the Euro system and if that financial nmechanism decides to support Greece, which it will, then the UK has to pay its share.
As for Greece itself, what a mess. More to the point is that it is probably an indication of where other countries are heading. The Greeks are damned whatever they do, it doesn't matter whose fault lt it is, banks, people, greed, corruption, stupidity or government. The financial situation they are in is going to mean poverty for many for a generation whichever way they go. The same can be said for, in order, Ireland, Portugal and Spain (though Spain might still avoid it). Even the UK could be included in this list.
Today I was speaking to a Spanish friend of mine, age 65. He is frightened that Spain may end up with another civil war. He says conditions are similar to the 'Franco era'. His only hope is that the King will step in and do something before it is too late. He is convinced that the PP will get in at the next election but the measures they will have to take will cause major unrest and poverty, particularly to the young. Greece now, Spain next year, what a scenario!
An immediate way out of this problem would be to devalue the Euro but that is not likely to happen.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Happyexpat said:


> Unfortunately the UK is a part of the Euro system and if that financial nmechanism decides to support Greece, which it will, then the UK has to pay its share.
> As for Greece itself, what a mess. More to the point is that it is probably an indication of where other countries are heading. The Greeks are damned whatever they do, it doesn't matter whose fault lt it is, banks, people, greed, corruption, stupidity or government. The financial situation they are in is going to mean poverty for many for a generation whichever way they go. The same can be said for, in order, Ireland, Portugal and Spain (though Spain might still avoid it). Even the UK could be included in this list.
> Today I was speaking to a Spanish friend of mine, age 65. He is frightened that Spain may end up with another civil war. He says conditions are similar to the 'Franco era'. His only hope is that the King will step in and do something before it is too late. He is convinced that the PP will get in at the next election but the measures they will have to take will cause major unrest and poverty, particularly to the young. Greece now, Spain next year, what a scenario!
> An immediate way out of this problem would be to devalue the Euro but that is not likely to happen.



If you devalue the Euro then a great many people would surely go under. Whilst most Catalan's I swear are richer than God (or so it would seem) fact is a lot of them live on the never, never. I cannot tell you the number of people my son knows who buy new cars just about every year, spend vast amounts of money on clothes etc, etc, putting it all on bank loans and credit cards because that is what they are accustomed to doing. 
One of my neighbours admitted to us that farming his land doesnt pay him enough to live on, to drive his big fancy 4 litre twinpack pick up, to buy his brand new tractor, but the subsidies he gets from the Government who in turn get them from the EU does. Thing is, as my bank manager warned, they have been stopped or as near as damn it and awarded to the new kids on the block. Romania. Now suddenly his income has dwindled to only what his land produces. 

Fact is, I have 40,000 square metres on which I have hundreds of Olive trees. The weedkiller alone costs me over 400 euros a year to buy, fertiliser another 200-300 if I have to alter the soil PH balance etc (Olives love acidic soil) under a hundred if I just want to spread chicken poop. Then there is the cost of upkeep to the machinery, say another 100 euros. Not to mention the cost of the fuel for my rotivator, shaker, chainsaw, etc etc. After which you then have to factor in the tax for the land, which at present some idiot has decided will be 4000 euros a year, which I naturally am appealing against. 

Last year I was offered 20 cents a kilo for my olives and had I sold them I would have made........

300-400 euros.

And how am I supposed to live exactly?????

Fact is, whilst the prices in the shops have gone up, we farmers are getting less and less each year for our crops. Several of my neighbours don't bother to sell their olives anymore, rather they take the oil in payment for them and the co-operative gets to keep the 2nd and 3rd press along with the pomade.

I have been thinking about taking the oil to the UK to sell at farmers markets etc, but so far have come up with a slight problem. In order to find out if I have to pay import duty on my oil I have to check it out with HM Customs. Can I check it out on line. Nope. Can I call them up. Nope. Can I get someone, always assuming I have someone in the UK who'd do it, to go down the library to look up the relevant documents. I can if they have bought them. 

They cost hundreds.

In our strapped for cash society, I wonder if a library is going to waste its money on such documents for maybe 1 or 2 people to look at in the year. Doubt it.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I can't see why you would have to pay import duty from Spain to the UK. It's all EU - freedom of movement of goods and all that...


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

jimenato said:


> I can't see why you would have to pay import duty from Spain to the UK. It's all EU - freedom of movement of goods and all that...


I thought that, however, I was advised when I did call the Customs and Excise people to check up on it in their publication. Apparently because it is foodstuffs that I am going to sell it may have its own special rules. Though what those rules were they wouldnt tell me because they want me to spend hundreds on their publication, probably to find there are no special rules.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> Hmmm, now I wonder how likely that is going to be, oh I know, about as likely as Icarus opening up a new budget airline, that's how likely.
> 
> Of course they could seize the tax dodgers assets, which would pay off the bill probably 10 fold, but then that wouldn't be too popular with the big fish in the pond would it. And if you are being paid to look the other way, as surely someone somewhere must be doing in order they have gotten away with it in the first place, well they might get a bit nasty, don't you think.


Well, it appears they are going to have to try harder to catch those big fish:

Greece loses €15bn a year to tax evasion - Telegraph


> Reducing the estimated €15bn (£13.2bn) that slips through the tax collection net each year is one of the conditions tied to a bail-out.
> 
> There have been some imaginative attempts to widen the collection pool. Helicopters have been hovering over plush suburbs in northern Athens in the search for swimming pools in the homes of professional people who claim they are living on only €35,000-€43,000 a year.
> 
> Thousands have been identified but tax records show only 300 have been declared. The swimming pool fraternity are also responding by using nets to cover the pools to avoid detection.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Today I was speaking to a Spanish friend of mine, age 65. He is frightened that Spain may end up with another civil war. He says conditions are similar to the 'Franco era'. His only hope is that the King will step in and do something before it is too late. He is convinced that the PP will get in at the next election but the measures they will have to take will cause major unrest and poverty, particularly to the young. Greece now, Spain next year, what a scenario!


What does he suggest the king should do, exactly?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> If you devalue the Euro then a great many people would surely go under. Whilst most Catalan's I swear are richer than God (or so it would seem) fact is a lot of them live on the never, never. I cannot tell you the number of people my son knows who buy new cars just about every year, spend vast amounts of money on clothes etc, etc, putting it all on bank loans and credit cards because that is what they are accustomed to doing.
> One of my neighbours admitted to us that farming his land doesnt pay him enough to live on, to drive his big fancy 4 litre twinpack pick up, to buy his brand new tractor, but the subsidies he gets from the Government who in turn get them from the EU does. Thing is, as my bank manager warned, they have been stopped or as near as damn it and awarded to the new kids on the block. Romania. Now suddenly his income has dwindled to only what his land produces.
> 
> Fact is, I have 40,000 square metres on which I have hundreds of Olive trees. The weedkiller alone costs me over 400 euros a year to buy, fertiliser another 200-300 if I have to alter the soil PH balance etc (Olives love acidic soil) under a hundred if I just want to spread chicken poop. Then there is the cost of upkeep to the machinery, say another 100 euros. Not to mention the cost of the fuel for my rotivator, shaker, chainsaw, etc etc. After which you then have to factor in the tax for the land, which at present some idiot has decided will be 4000 euros a year, which I naturally am appealing against.
> ...


Some useful info here. 
ARCHIVE: Defra, UK - Horticulture - Olive oil - Importing

This covers most things including importing table olives.
ARCHIVE: Defra, UK - Horticulture - Olive Oil - Introduction


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks for the links Gus, I will have a wade through them later.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It's something we thought about once the bottom fell out of the olive price. Having waded through that lot i lost the will to live. Top wack We'd only ever have around 400litres of oil. When i was looking one day Ifound some sites that advertise wanting links to people who have spanish oil / olives that they can import.
This was one.
Import Inquiry: Olive Oil Import Inquiries from UK
there was quite a few others as well.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> It's something we thought about once the bottom fell out of the olive price. Having waded through that lot i lost the will to live. Top wack We'd only ever have around 400litres of oil. When i was looking one day Ifound some sites that advertise wanting links to people who have spanish oil / olives that they can import.
> This was one.
> Import Inquiry: Olive Oil Import Inquiries from UK
> there was quite a few others as well.


I've just had a look and you are right, one does lose the will to live. What the heck is this CN categorisation? I tried looking it up but haven't yet found any info. 
Some of my neighbours are willing to come in with us, but like most folk they want us to do all the work for them to reap the benefit.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> What does he suggest the king should do, exactly?


I asked that and there was no answer except.

Unlike the English monarchy which has no real power, he is of the opinion that Spanish monarchy does. He also is of the opinion that those in politics listen to what the King says. We were in a bar at the time and quite a few people of all ages agreed with him which I found interesting as I thought it was wishful thinking.

Maybe that is what is needed, a fairy tale ending, king, fairy godmother with a wand and a prince and princess who will marry, bringing loadsa tourists in and we will all live happily ever after......

The Governor of the Bank of England has today gone for doom and gloom in an announcement over Greece AND Europe saying that Greece cannot repay its loans whatever happens and the next days / weeks will decide Europes fate. With all this happening the local problems in each country probably need to 'go on hold' as far as action is concerned until the 'bigger picture' is resolved.

Personally I am a believer in wait and see, many problems have a way of resolving themselves if left alone for a while but, usual, it will be the bankers / speculators who will decide the ending. Lets hope they do nothing foolish just to make a fast buck.

On the subject of Olives I would like to add Almonds. We live near to Jijona, the Turron centre. A massive export market particularly to the States who love the stuff. Almonds used to be grown all over the area in huge quantities. Not anymore, now most are imported for the Turron factories. Guess where from, not hard really, California! No doubt there is some logic to this somewhere but it beats me!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Happyexpat said:


> I asked that and there was no answer except.
> 
> Unlike the English monarchy which has no real power, he is of the opinion that Spanish monarchy does. He also is of the opinion that those in politics listen to what the King says. We were in a bar at the time and quite a few people of all ages agreed with him which I found interesting as I thought it was wishful thinking.
> 
> ...


Slowly but surely the Spanish farmer is being choked out of the market. Thing is, Spain needs its farmers. It is one thing raking in the money from tourists, but in times of crisis they have a tendency to stay at home, hence why there are so many deals available like 'All Inclusive' for the same price as flights cost practically last year. Add the problem of the old cash cow of us foreigners coming to Spain spending lots of dosh on new homes falling by the wayside and you can see how Spain is going to struggle without having some fallback plan. Its farmers.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, I see we have an actual _desahucio _repossession case on the forum, asking for help and advice. Perhaps you'd like to go and tell Bethany it´s her own fault, for being an irresponsible borrower. I'm sure that would make her feel a whole lot better.


Now why would I want to do that? she is asking for advice, which she has got, not to be patronised. 
The purpose of my comments weren't to hurt people's feeling, which I suspect I might have, unintencionally, but to point that we (not particularly myself, but the spaniards in general) have played our part in getting ourselves in the situation we are today.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, I see we have an actual _desahucio _repossession case on the forum, asking for help and advice. Perhaps you'd like to go and tell Bethany it´s her own fault, for being an irresponsible borrower. I'm sure that would make her feel a whole lot better.


I'm sure that Bethany is in a turmoil, but its not our place to apportion blame on either her or her lender. Its a fact of life that if you cant pay for what you have then you cant keep it and that applies to everything in life and not just financial possessions. 

In our grandparents day, Mr & Mrs Average couldnt actually get a mortgage to buy a house, they simply had to save up first - Us and the younger generation have never had so much, so easily, too easily, we almost expect it??!

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, I see we have an actual _desahucio _repossession case on the forum, asking for help and advice. Perhaps you'd like to go and tell Bethany it´s her own fault, for being an irresponsible borrower. I'm sure that would make her feel a whole lot better.


It possible that it's at least partly her own fault and it's also possible she's an irresponsible borrower. Not many of us would think that telling her so would make her feel a whole lot better.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

It is not for us to apportion blame, we do not know all the facts. 

"There but for the grace of God go I"

That is the saying, best we all remember it.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> Now why would I want to do that? she is asking for advice, which she has got, not to be patronised.
> The purpose of my comments weren't to hurt people's feeling, which I suspect I might have, unintencionally, but to point that we (not particularly myself, but the spaniards in general) have played our part in getting ourselves in the situation we are today.


I suppose my point is that it's easy to make sweeping generalisations about the causes of people's misfortunes and whether they are responsible for their destiny or not. But when you look at individual cases, each one is a personal tragedy, whether it involves losing your home, your job, or (as in Bethany's case) your partner. In the vast majority of cases, they are caused by factors you have no control over.

So, as JoCat says, let's thank our stars for what we have and remember that it could easily be us in that position.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Specifics*

I certainly wouldn't apportion blame to any individual and my sympathy, whatever the reason goes out to Bethany. There can be and are many reasons to get into debt and I have been there myself. My fault, the banks fault and dare I say it, my ex wifes fault. Whatever the reason we should all try to give the best suggestions possible. 
The truth of the matter is that getting in to debt is far to easy, too attractive and it is actively marketed to us irrespective of the consequences both to the banks and to us. We are subject to peer pressure to 'keep up with the Joneses' (_if anybody knows them by the way I would like to ask them if they live on credit cause I can't catch up let alone keep up_).
A free market economy is the best way to go but with a small amount of realism and empathy, not just greed. 
We are in this horrible mess, in the main, because of stupid credit decisions and what worries me is that they are still doing it even on a Global scale. Remember WE are giving credit to Greece knowing that there is little or no chance of getting it back.:focus:


Alcalaina said:


> I suppose my point is that it's easy to make sweeping generalisations about the causes of people's misfortunes and whether they are responsible for their destiny or not. But when you look at individual cases, each one is a personal tragedy, whether it involves losing your home, your job, or (as in Bethany's case) your partner. In the vast majority of cases, they are caused by factors you have no control over.
> 
> So, as JoCat says, let's thank our stars for what we have and remember that it could easily be us in that position.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> A free market economy is the best way to go but with a small amount of realism and empathy, not just greed.
> We are in this horrible mess, in the main, because of stupid credit decisions and what worries me is that they are still doing it even on a Global scale. Remember WE are giving credit to Greece knowing that there is little or no chance of getting it back.:focus:


In a free market economy greed is not only acceptable, it is fundamental. The whole system is based on profit motivation, not need, and empathy doesn't even figure. I can never accept that it is the "best way to go" - not least because the economics are so flawed, capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next and it is always the least well off who suffer from it.

Unfortunately people believe the only alternative is some sort of Stalinist regime, but there has to be a more humane middle way and it has to come from the ground up.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Marxism is utopia and unfortunately cannot exist with the human race running it. It would be good if there was something better than a free market economy but, unfortunately, I don't think there is. Whatever we do human greed and corruption will take control. Its a fact of life. The point is to accept it is going to happen and put in controls to deal with it before it happens.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Some of you msy remember that on this and other threads I predicted the Arab Spring would spread across Europe. This is from the Daily Telegraph today.
"MINISTERS are drawing up plans for harsh new measures against unions to be brought in if this week’s strikes over changes to public-sector pensions develop into a full-scale “summer of discontent”, The Telegraph has learnt.
The package is likely to include a ban on the use of taxpayers’ cash to fund officials who work full-time on union business while nominally employed by government departments, local councils and hospitals.
It could also include new moves to insist on a minimum threshold for turnout in strike ballots before action can be called."
Here we go! Like I have said from the beginning we need to look at the big picture across Europe which might help with local problems.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Remember WE are giving credit to Greece knowing that there is little or no chance of getting it back.:focus:


Yes, we are lending money to a country where the tax system is based on 'honesty' !! You declare how much you have earned & the figures are rarely challenged.
Where only 5000 people admit to earning more than 90K per year . :rofl:

The Big Fat Greek Gravy Train: A special investigation into the EU-funded culture of greed, tax evasion and scandalous waste | Mail Online
I know it's from the Mail but there's nothing here that's not common knowledge. These are the people who should be financing the savage cut-backs, not being allowed to move their money out of the country !


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Frightening isn't it. The problem is that while Greece is an excessive case I wouldn't want to look too closely at quite a few other European countries including Spain and the UK. Nothing changes though, the poor get poorer and the rich get richer.
Before anybody comes back to me on this about the free market economy its worth remembering why Communism failed, same thing, corruption and greed. Its also worth remembering the famous 'pigs', Napoleon, quote from George Orwell. 'all animals are equal but some are more equal than others'.
In the Arab countries the poor sod on the street has protested, suffered, even in many cases died to change the system, the rich haven't. The protestors have, in some cases, got their change, for now but time and greed will have its effect. In a few years time they will be back to where they started or worse and another generation will struggle to get change. Fundamentally this is why I am against such protests as they achieve nothing in the long term. We need to change the culture, we need to change what drives humanity and that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime or even my son's. As it has been going on in one way or another for 6000 years I somewhat doubt it will ever change.
Oh yes and the Brussels statement that the UK won't have to fork out to support Greece this time is an outright lie. We pay into the fund that will be used! All countries in Europe are going to bare the brunt of this and suffer accordingly, especially if, or should I say when, it goes wrong.
You may have noticed that today I have my cynical hat on, tomorrow I think I will try for realism like a painter though I think, in this case, it amounts to the same awful view.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> Where only 5000 people admit to earning more than 90K per year ]. :rofl:
> 
> That many, wow.


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