# Moving to Johannesburg with a 6 month baby



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Good day,
I have an job opportunity to be transferred to Johannesburg for a year. 
My wife and I are very concerned for our 6 month baby. 
How safe is it for such a young girl ? We would probably be in Sandton.
I heard of carjacking. What would happen to the baby ? 
In case of burglary, if we are at home, what usually happen ? It's ok to loose TV, computer, ... but not a life !
I read about these gated living area. Are they any shop in there ?
I might sound paranoid but with all I read...
Thank you in advance for your replies and experiences.
Chapito


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Chapito said:


> Good day,
> I have an job opportunity to be transferred to Johannesburg for a year.
> My wife and I are very concerned for our 6 month baby.
> How safe is it for such a young girl ? We would probably be in Sandton.
> ...


Chapito, 
You are considering a big step. I would suggest reading through lots of the forums to gain a view. In my humble opinion, I would not even consider a move, especially with a young family. To answer your questions:

1) Nobody could tell you it is safe for such a young baby. Johannesburg is one of the most violent cities in the world and the lives of young children are of no consequence to the perpetrators of crime. 
2)If the car was carjacked with the baby inside? Too horrrible to think of. Have you read thae stats on child rape in SA? That would always be a risk of a carjacking with a baby inside.
3) Burglary at home: You get tied up, made to watch while the wife and baby are being raped. Then all shot or stabbed.
4) Gated commncities: Depends on which one you choose. Some are like mini-villages with all amenities. Quality depends on price.

You are not being paranoid, just doing your homework.
Be careful with your decision, it may be the most monumentous you make.

Good luck!


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Zimtony,

Thank you for your reply. 
Do you think that if we settle in an "expensive" gated community, the 3 first points are less likely to happen ? (still doing my homework...)

Chapito


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

*Family Safety first*

In my opinion listening and taking Zimtony's advise will be the best decicion you will ever make. You are allready asking the right questions. Now as with anything the longer and harder you look you will always find something, someone to justify a reason or a choice. There will be some people on here telling you "something you might want to hear" to justify going, but if you look at facts and people that lived there(and maybe still) telling you what is a real possibility maybe you should think what we are saying. Remember you have a responsibity to your wife an 6 month old baby girl and that is to keep them safe no matter how boring a job you have somewhere in Europe. Dont let a "need/thirst for a bit of adventure"(if that is the case as in some Europeans) drive you to go to a country where you stand a very good chance of putting your family's life at risk. I am pretty sure that you would be able to make other work arrangements or whatever the case maybe if you do not go to SA. I lived there and would not even visit there for the chance of being hijacked, or affected by serious violent crime or like Zimtony said having to watch your loved ones being subjected to the most evil kinds of violence - This is not spreading hate or anything but only letting you know what is a real possibility than anywhere else where you would have possibly concidered to go(if it was not Sudan, Iraq or something) 
Do your research very carefully


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Chapito said:


> Zimtony,
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> Do you think that if we settle in an "expensive" gated community, the 3 first points are less likely to happen ? (still doing my homework...)
> ...


Chapito,

I have been back in SA for almost 3 yrs. I live in Jhb - or just outside in what is considered a very bad area. I am not in a gated community, but a normal suburban house. I do not want to convince yiou to move to Jhb, that is your decision, but I want to enlighten you.

There are approx 50 murders a day in the whole of SA. This stat does not make us the most violent country in the world, but as a percentage of population, it does. That mean approx. 5 murders per day, per province. Our provinces are quite large, and if you happen to be one of the 5 in that province to be killed that night, I would considerr you to be very unlucky to be honest. Sandton is in gauteng, the most dangerous province. Say the average per day in gauteng is 8 murders per day, at least half of those are in the very run down areas, townships, or ganglands - so prudently you could say there are 4 murders per day on average in Gauteng - at the worst, 1 of those per night in greater Sandton. Now you make your own mind up.

Zimtony is incorrect in informing you that all carjackings with babies inside result in the rape / death of the baby. Firstly, it is VERY rare that you will be carjacked, and even moreso with your baby, and if it happens, 99.9999% of the time they will release the baby anyway. VERY few carjacking in general result in you being shot, or stabbed, nevermind murdered. I shoudl know, I live in the dangerous city and I have been for 3 yrs now.

Zimtony also tells you that all home burglaries result in violence, rape and death. Again, this is incorrect. This does not happen all the time. I should know better as I live here and he is in Spain. He does however describe the worst case scenario to you, which again is VERY rare(see murder stats I posted above firstly). If you have basic security, fencing - i.e. alarms and the monitoring services of a security company (which is now "normal" in SA, you will have already minimised your risks. Gated communities are probably the safest option.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko said:


> Chapito,
> 
> I have been back in SA for almost 3 yrs. I live in Jhb - or just outside in what is considered a very bad area. I am not in a gated community, but a normal suburban house. I do not want to convince yiou to move to Jhb, that is your decision, but I want to enlighten you.
> 
> ...



Darko

I did not suggest that all carjackings, home burglaries etc would end up in the worst case scenario. What I did state was these are things that could very probably happen,
Your statistical insight is correct, according to the 2007/2008 offical SAPS crime figures, there were 18487 cases of murder reported. When you divinde by 365 it gives you just over 50 cases per day. Now saying that "the provinces are very large" does not diminish the fact that for every 100000 members of public there are more than 38 murders, every year. That is for a country with just over 44 million people. Compare that with the UK (as that is where Chapito is based so it gives him something real to compare with ) that has a population of 61 million and that had a total of 1408 cases of murder, manslaughter and infaniticide in the same period. Now Darko, you are most probably correct in the fact that a great deal of the cases in SA occur in the poorer areas of the country/bad areas/ ghettos call them what you will. As are the UK statistics. A great portion of the UK crime figures evolve from innner-city areas that most people never see.What is absolutely undeniable is the fact that statisically, there is an incredibly huge shift in the chance of becoming a statistic of crime in South Africa, than in the UK or anywhere else in the western World.

Chapito, make your decision very carefully and think about the worst case scenario. That is something you will always have to weigh up in your decision making. In South Africa there is a very real possibility of something very bad happening to you. That is undeniable. On the other hand, there is also a fair chance that nothing would ever happen. However, what is absolutely unrefuteable is this: living in South Africa will always mean you will never live with the element of personal freedom that you currently live with. Decision, decisions! You are doing the right thing by asking and checking.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Darko
> 
> I did not suggest that all carjackings, home burglaries etc would end up in the worst case scenario. What I did state was these are things that could very probably happen,
> Your statistical insight is correct, according to the 2007/2008 offical SAPS crime figures, there were 18487 cases of murder reported. When you divinde by 365 it gives you just over 50 cases per day. Now saying that "the provinces are very large" does not diminish the fact that for every 100000 members of public there are more than 38 murders, every year. That is for a country with just over 44 million people. Compare that with the UK (as that is where Chapito is based so it gives him something real to compare with ) that has a population of 61 million and that had a total of 1408 cases of murder, manslaughter and infaniticide in the same period. Now Darko, you are most probably correct in the fact that a great deal of the cases in SA occur in the poorer areas of the country/bad areas/ ghettos call them what you will. As are the UK statistics. A great portion of the UK crime figures evolve from innner-city areas that most people never see.What is absolutely undeniable is the fact that statisically, there is an incredibly huge shift in the chance of becoming a statistic of crime in South Africa, than in the UK or anywhere else in the western World.
> ...


Zimtony, I clearly stated in my post that our murder per capita does make us one of the most dangerous countries. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that when looking at the figures in absolute terms, you would have to consider yourself very unlucky to be the 1 poor sod to get murdered that day in Jhb out of a massive population. 

You say "could very probably happen" - I think "probably" should be taken out. 44 mill people, of which 43.98 mill people aren't murdered / killed. It's more like it "probably" wont happen to you.

I did not compare with UK. SA fails in stats compared to most countries. Just don't send the message that it will "probably" or very likely happen to any person that sets foot in SA....it "probably" wont. Bear in mind, worst case scanario in UK is to be blown up by terrorists on public transport....it could probably happen. But when people want to travel abroad I do not suggest looking ONLY at worst case scenarios as you suggest. If I were to do that i would never have travelled to Aus; Thailand; UK; USA. Look at the realistic scenario. Realistically, you have to be awfully unlucky to become a victim...at about 4 murders per night in the non-notoriously-lethal areas of gauteng, whilst still very bad, does not warrant scaremongering.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

*carjacking*

Chapito
Incidentally, with reference to your specific question on probability of being carjacked:

South Africa has just over 7 million cars, trucks, vans registered.
UK has 33 million.

South Africa - 2007/2008 carjacking: 15446 which equals approx 1 car jacking (not vehcile theft!) per every 485 cars. 

UK - 2007/2008 No relevant car jacking statistics recorded as incidents are so low.
However in the UK there were 10353 case of aggravated vehicle theft which is defined as vehicle theft when the perpetrator has to physically break into the vehicle. 1 case per 3188 vehicles. 

So yes, again the chances of this happening are very high. And carjacking is a crime that is defintely not one hidden to the poorer areas!

Chapito, Good luck!!


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Chapito
> Incidentally, with reference to your specific question on probability of being carjacked:
> 
> South Africa has just over 7 million cars, trucks, vans registered.
> ...


Chapito,

Zimtony's figures sound about right. That means that when he says your chances of being carjacked are "very high" it means that to him a 0.2% chance of being carjacked is a very good chance and that it will "probably" happen to you.

To me, 0.2% is very low - add to that the fact that death as a result of carjacking is in the low single figure percentages and you have an even smaller number to consider. Somethingh like 0.01%.

So yes, we are worse than the UK by a long way. But do these figures scare you enough? That's for you to decide.

Just remember, it didn't seem to scare the millions of tourists this country sees, nor the officials that have decided that we are a fine country - fine enough to host the biggest sporting events in the world.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko said:


> Zimtony, I clearly stated in my post that our murder per capita does make us one of the most dangerous countries. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that when looking at the figures in absolute terms, you would have to consider yourself very unlucky to be the 1 poor sod to get murdered that day in Jhb out of a massive population.
> 
> You say "could very probably happen" - I think "probably" should be taken out. 44 mill people, of which 43.98 mill people aren't murdered / killed. It's more like it "probably" wont happen to you.
> 
> I did not compare with UK. SA fails in stats compared to most countries. Just don't send the message that it will "probably" or very likely happen to any person that sets foot in SA....it "probably" wont. Bear in mind, worst case scanario in UK is to be blown up by terrorists on public transport....it could probably happen. But when people want to travel abroad I do not suggest looking ONLY at worst case scenarios as you suggest. If I were to do that i would never have travelled to Aus; Thailand; UK; USA. Look at the realistic scenario. Realistically, you have to be awfully unlucky to become a victim...at about 4 murders per night in the non-notoriously-lethal areas of gauteng, whilst still very bad, does not warrant scaremongering.


Darko

If I was the 1 murdered that day, then yes I would definitely consider myself very unlucky indeed!! 

Look, we can bat back and forth about whether or not SA is a great place/dangerous place to live. Or whether it is safe/unsafe. The fact is this: it is only safe so long as nothing happen to you. You will deem it unsafe the day something does happen to you. And the probability of it happening are very high. Stistically.

In between you have to consider the facts (I know you like these, because you keep bringing them up in other posts when people, me included, have suggested that SA may go down the pan in the future.) The facts are that if you live in South Africa there is a huge and very, very real chance that you will become a victim of a violent crime and join the statistic lists. If you can refute this fact, then please do so, with some facts of your own! I do not know where Chapito lives in the UK: it could be in the peaceful outer Hebrides or it could be in the worst sink estate in inner London/manchester/Liverpool, even still he, his wife and their 6 month old baby will statistically, definitely be safer if they remain where they are. 

After that, Chapito has to make a considered decision. I am sure he will use the facts to help him arrive at this decision.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Darko
> 
> If I was the 1 murdered that day, then yes I would definitely consider myself very unlucky indeed!!
> 
> ...


I have done nothing but stick to facts - in fact - facts based on figures that you have provided and that i trust are correct.

To me - and this is not fact, just my personal opinion - 0.2% chance of being carjacked (and 0.01% of being murdered as a result of carjacking) does not scare me into making rash decisions. On top of that, I remain vigilant nonetheless.
Another personal opinion, based on figures that you provided, a 0.05% chance of being murdered is also something which does scare me - oh yes it does - but it's still a small figure - only my opinion. Again, my vigilance reduces my risks even further.

SA is not heaven....but it aint the hell that many allude to either.

Very high probability? What makes it a high probability? What figures tell us that it's HIGH?

Statistically, Chapito would be safest in Luxembourg. Luxembourg is to the UK, what the UK is to SA.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko said:


> I have done nothing but stick to facts - in fact - facts based on figures that you have provided and that i trust are correct.
> 
> To me - and this is not fact, just my personal opinion - 0.2% chance of being carjacked (and 0.01% of being murdered as a result of carjacking) does not scare me into making rash decisions. On top of that, I remain vigilant nonetheless.
> Another personal opinion, based on figures that you provided, a 0.05% chance of being murdered is also something which does scare me - oh yes it does - but it's still a small figure - only my opinion. Again, my vigilance reduces my risks even further.
> ...


I don't think any figures should scare anyone into making a rash decision. Chapito is clearly not being rash by asking for opinions on this forum. However, if he weighs up the probability of something bad happening to him where he now lives and the probability of it happening should he move to the UK, then the probability is far, far higher that something bad will happen to him in SA. Undisputeable. Mix the use of English language as much as you like, massage the staistics to suit: but when you compare apples with apples, he is infiitely much safer where he currently is. That is an undeniable fact. SA is indeed not heaven and I am sure that it is not total hell either, but it could be a personal hell if something bad happened to you. Which brings me neatly back to the heart of my post: It is infinitely more likely/probable/possible (delete those you do not want to use) that something bad will happen to you in SA than it would in the UK or anywhere else in the western world. The UK definitely has it's failings, but not on the scale that SA does. Remember the grass may look greener, it is just sometimes a lot more difficult to mow.

And is Chapito had placed a post asking for the safest place to take his family, then you Luxembourg comment would actually be relevant. However, seeing as his post was specfically about moving to South Africa and the inherent risks of doing so, then your comment is irrelevant to his decision making process.

Incidentally, all of my facts are available on either the offical SA Police website and the UK home office website.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

*South African crime stats 2007/2008*

For your information, read and absorb as necessary. As a matter of interest, I have underlined and put in bold an interesting note about the rape stats and their recorded dates.

Breakdown in the crime statistics recorded between 1 April 2007 and 31 March 2008 as reported by the SA Police Service:

The figures are arranged in the number of incidents per 100 000 people.

- Murder: 18 487 cases reported, 38,6 incidents.

- Attempted murder: 18 795 cases reported, 39,3 incidents.

- Assault GBH: 210 104 cases reported, 439,1 incidents.

- Common assault: 198 049 cases reported, 413,9 incidents.

- Common robbery 64 985 cases reported, 135,8 incidents.

- Arson: 7 396 cases reported, 15,5 incidents.

- Malicious damage to property: 136 968 cases reported, 286,2 incidents.

- Burglary at residential premises: 237 853 cases reported, 497,1 incidents.

- Burglary at non-residential premises: 62 995 cases reported, 131,7 incidents.

- Motor vehicle and motorcycle theft: 8 8226 cases reported, 167,7 incidents.

- Theft out of motor vehicles: 111 661 cases reported, 233,4 incidents.

- Stock theft; 28 778 cases reported, 60,1 incidents.

- Illegal possession of firearms or ammunition: 13 476 cases reported, 28,2 incidents.

- Drug related crime: 109 134 cases reported, 228,1 incidents.

- Driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol: 48 405 cases reported, 101,2 incidents.

- Theft not mentioned elsewhere: 395 296 cases reported, 826,1 incidents.

- Commercial crime: 65 286 cases reported, 136,4 incidents.

- Shoplifting; 66 992 cases reported, 140 incidents.

- Culpable homicide: 13 184 cases reported, 27,6 incidents.

- Kidnapping: 2 323 cases reported, 4,9 incidents.

- Abduction: 2 728 cases reported, 5,7 incidents.

- Neglect or ill treatment of children: 4 106 cases reported, 8,6 incidents.

- Public Violence: 895 cases reported, 1,9 incidents.

- Crimen injuria: 33 064 cases reported or 69,1 incidents.

_* The law regarding rape cases has changed to include male rape, and as such the crime statistics only reflect rape and indecent assault statistics between April and December 2007;_
- Rape: 36 190 cases reported, 75,6 incidents.

- Indecent assault: 6 763 case reported, 14,1 incidents.

- Aggravated robbery: 118 312 cases reported, 247,3 incidents.

* This included 14, 201 carjacking incidents or 29,7 incidents and 1 245 truck hijacking incidents.

It also included 14 481 incidents of robbery at residential properties or 30,3 cases per 100 000 people, and 9 852 incidents of robbery at non-residential properties or 20,6 incidents per 100 000 people.

There were 395 cases of cash-in-transit robberies or 0,8 incidents per 100 000 people, and 144 bank robberies or 0,3 incidents per 100 000 people. - Sapa


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> I don't think any figures should scare anyone into making a rash decision. Chapito is clearly not being rash by asking for opinions on this forum. However, if he weighs up the probability of something bad happening to him where he now lives and the probability of it happening should he move to the UK, then the probability is far, far higher that something bad will happen to him in SA. Undisputeable. Mix the use of English language as much as you like, massage the staistics to suit: but when you compare apples with apples, he is infiitely much safer where he currently is. That is an undeniable fact. SA is indeed not heaven and I am sure that it is not total hell either, but it could be a personal hell if something bad happened to you. Which brings me neatly back to the heart of my post: It is infinitely more likely/probable/possible (delete those you do not want to use) that something bad will happen to you in SA than it would in the UK or anywhere else in the western world. The UK definitely has it's failings, but not on the scale that SA does. Remember the grass may look greener, it is just sometimes a lot more difficult to mow.
> 
> And is Chapito had placed a post asking for the safest place to take his family, then you Luxembourg comment would actually be relevant. However, seeing as his post was specfically about moving to South Africa and the inherent risks of doing so, then your comment is irrelevant to his decision making process.
> 
> Incidentally, all of my facts are available on either the offical SA Police website and the UK home office website.


Dear Zimtony,

Pls tell me where I have massaged the english language / statistics to suite? Pls show me where I have not used your figures? I wait in anticipation.

Precisely Zimtony. Chapito never asked about Luxembourg at all. I brought it up as you had decided to bring up comparisons with the UK, which was never asked about either.


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko said:


> Dear Zimtony,
> 
> Pls tell me where I have massaged the english language / statistics to suite? Pls show me where I have not used your figures? I wait in anticipation.
> 
> Precisely Zimtony. Chapito never asked about Luxembourg at all. I brought it up as you had decided to bring up comparisons with the UK, which was never asked about either.


English language: By suggesting that my use of the word probable is incorrect. It is infintiely more probable that something bad will happen to Chapito if he moves to SA than if he stays in the UK.
Statistics: By suggesting that a 0.2% chance is not significant. It is 1 carjacking per 485 cars. If you had balanced the statement by saying that there is a 0,03% chance in the UK, 1 aggravated theft per 3190 vehicles, then you get perspective. By choosing just 1 stat, changing the view if it is clearly massaging.
Chapito is proposing coming from the UK so all of his decision making will clearly be based on comapring with where he currently lives. That gives the much needed and oft-forgotten balance to the discussion. Bringing up Luxembourg is like me bringing up Iraq or the North Pole. Totally irrelevant.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko,"nor the officials that have decided that we are a fine country - fine enough to host the biggest sporting events in the world."

Those Officials expressed grave concerns which were allayed by *promises *of increased security for the visitors.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> English language: By suggesting that my use of the word probable is incorrect. It is infintiely more probable that something bad will happen to Chapito if he moves to SA than if he stays in the UK.
> Statistics: By suggesting that a 0.2% chance is not significant. It is 1 carjacking per 485 cars. If you had balanced the statement by saying that there is a 0,03% chance in the UK, 1 aggravated theft per 3190 vehicles, then you get perspective. By choosing just 1 stat, changing the view if it is clearly massaging.
> Chapito is proposing coming from the UK so all of his decision making will clearly be based on comapring with where he currently lives. That gives the much needed and oft-forgotten balance to the discussion. Bringing up Luxembourg is like me bringing up Iraq or the North Pole. Totally irrelevant.


1. English language: Firstly, I could not see where Chapito stated that he / she stay in the UK currently. Secondly, when you used the word "probable" it was not when comparing SA to UK, but SA in isolation. 0.2% is not "very likely" or "probable" when used in isolation. Sorry, but that's my opinion.

2. Statistics: I clearly stated that "in my opinion ....0.2%...." etc etc! I think you need to brush up on the english language, and learn to quote people correctly - not selectively. Furthermore,0.03% to 0.2% - no matter how you look at it - it's small (IMHO). You are also guilty of bombarding with massive absolute figures without putting anuything into perspective. I am merely the counter argument to the "SA Hater".

3. I apologise, but I could not find anything in Chapito's posts to suggest that she/he is coming from the UK.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Darko,"nor the officials that have decided that we are a fine country - fine enough to host the biggest sporting events in the world."
> 
> Those Officials expressed grave concerns which were allayed by *promises *of increased security for the visitors.


1995 Rugby World Cup??
Cricket World Cup??
T20 Cricket World Cup??
Current IPL series??

I guess any grave concerns expressed before these events above were found to be unwarranted as well. Amazing how anyone survives!!


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Darko said:


> 1. English language: Firstly, I could not see where Chapito stated that he / she stay in the UK currently. Secondly, when you used the word "probable" it was not when comparing SA to UK, but SA in isolation. 0.2% is not "very likely" or "probable" when used in isolation. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
> 
> 2. Statistics: I clearly stated that "in my opinion ....0.2%...." etc etc! I think you need to brush up on the english language, and learn to quote people correctly - not selectively. Furthermore,0.03% to 0.2% - no matter how you look at it - it's small (IMHO). You are also guilty of bombarding with massive absolute figures without putting anuything into perspective. I am merely the counter argument to the "SA Hater".
> 
> 3. I apologise, but I could not find anything in Chapito's posts to suggest that she/he is coming from the UK.


Darko is right. I do not come from UK. The flag on my profile is the Swiss one and I live in Geneva.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I was particularly referring to 2010 which I thought you were.
which of those were held you mentioned were held in disadvantaged areas?
I'm also not saying that Fans are going to get nailed wholesale,,you raised a point and iro the WC 2010,I corrected you.


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

I read the other messages in the forum and found out that 1/4 women are raped. Does it usually take place in townships/poor area or more in more safer one ? In other words, what are the chances of this happening when you live in a gated residence ?
Other question: Do you know a website for renting a house in gated residences ? I would like to see how it works, how much it costs, what is in a residence, ...
Thank you in advance


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Chapito said:


> I read the other messages in the forum and found out that 1/4 women are raped. Does it usually take place in townships/poor area or more in more safer one ? In other words, what are the chances of this happening when you live in a gated residence ?
> Other question: Do you know a website for renting a house in gated residences ? (in case I decide to move to SA)
> Thank you in advance


Chapito,

I personally know in excess of 50 women in SA (friends and family). I have been back in SA for 3 yrs now. I know of only one that was raped - and it was by her sick-in-the-head uncle. Now this doesn't mean that raope isn't an issue in SA. It definitely is an issue. 

From what I have read in the local newspapers, and seen on our local documentary TV progarammes it happens the most in rural areas (where there is lack of education and governance) and in the townships. there are also cases that do happen in the "civilised" areas but these are far and few between, though probably more frequent than the cities that you are used to. 

Zimtony has provided you with factual figures - just read between the lines, both good and bad. 

I can recommend the following sites:


Property For Sale And Property To Rent | Private Property | South Africa

Property for rent or to let in South Africa | South African rentals | Directory of rental property listings South Africa


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Darko,
Thank you for the websites. I was looking for a website on which you can search by "security level" (cluster homes, gated communities, townhouses, ... ) Do you know any ?


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Chapito said:


> Darko is right. I do not come from UK. The flag on my profile is the Swiss one and I live in Geneva.


Apologies Chapito, I merely glanced at your flag without reading underneath an d being colour blind, I assumed it was the St Georges Cross of England! Again, apologies!

That said, the Swiss crime stats are far, far safer than the UK stats, so it makes my views on safety in SA even more compelling!


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Sure, Switzerland is really safe. But because I work in the humanitarian action, I have traveled (alone) to "difficult" places. The big difference this time is that it would be on a Ionger mission so I would move with my family. In my line of work I cannot expect to always be in the comfortable Swiss headquarters, I do have to go the field sometimes. The question that puzzles me is whether my wife and baby would be OK in a gated community with all the amenities inside or whether I would still have to fear for their safety.


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Correction to my previous post: in fact I would like to know if there are specific websites for gated communities now, not just if I decide to move. Browsing round them would help me get an idea of what they're like, how much they cost etc. - all useful to the decision process


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Chapito

Have a look at ellisonestates.co.za Speak with Herbie Ellison
Also look at hurlinghammanor.co.za , redstoneestate.co.za
Contact rosebankproperty.co.za for others

Good luck
Tony


----------



## Chapito (May 11, 2009)

Thanks to your replies, I am getting down to my real concern: If I live in a gated residence, can I be sure that all imaginable entry points are so thoroughly checked that no "unwanted visitor" will ever make it to my flat/house/garden ?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Chapito said:


> Thanks to your replies, I am getting down to my real concern: If I live in a gated residence, can I be sure that all imaginable entry points are so thoroughly checked that no "unwanted visitor" will ever make it to my flat/house/garden ?


No,you cant be sure.
Apart from the ones guarded by AE&CI Security Guards (Thornhill in Edenvale)
the majority of entrance points to gated Comunities are manned by entry level Security Guards, employed for minimum wages by Security Companies who try and cut cost.
So your actual security is in the hands of a man who is being paid a pittance while he watches the "wealthy" in his terms drive in and out every day.

Secondly,all gated Comunities constantly have people renovating, (Kitchens,carpets,Tiling etc) very few estate Guards count how many go in and how many leave.

Chapito, you could live there for 40 or 50 years and have no more than the irritation of a mugging or a bag snatch.
it's not guaranteed either.

If I was forced back I would probably live in Thornhill but only because I know the personalities managing it and how efficient they are.
But I cannot envisage anything that would allow me to take my wife and daughter back there.


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Darko,

Indeed I know it sounds like a lot of us are always giving negatives, but seeing that most of us lived there a lot longer than 3 YEARS and had a much more emotional attachment to South Africa than you will ever have and a some even still have vast bussiness interest in SA I think we have a right to tell people what could and are highly likely to happen.

You on the other hand can not let anyone say anything "bad" about your new country.(Or is it realy your new country, because will you stay put when something big really starts to go wrong or will you run back to your own country) You will go on forever and ever that nothing will happen, how safe it is that your wife and child will not get raped blah blah blah. There are websites that actually give a lot more details than NEWS24 and those mainstream news and these incidents are not the ones happening in poor townships. DO not try to tell anyone that most people there live in harmony and without any fear, because like I said we lived there a hell of a lot longer that you and seeing that we all emigrated means that we all possess some form of education and skills. We know what is going on there. I just wish you guys would stop and trying to paint these rosy pictures for prospective immigrants, because do not tell me that you would go down to any pub/coffeeshop at night and enjoy a hasslefree night out without any sense of fear, being violated, like I can do in my town. Or take your kids to a park at the foreshore on a Friday night and the only fear would be that they will fall of the monkey bars. Because we know that is not true.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Chapito said:


> Thanks to your replies, I am getting down to my real concern: If I live in a gated residence, can I be sure that all imaginable entry points are so thoroughly checked that no "unwanted visitor" will ever make it to my flat/house/garden ?


Nope Chapito. There are NO guarantees, your risks will simply be minimised. Then again, I donm't know of any place on earth that can offer such a guarantee.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Martinw said:


> Darko,
> 
> Indeed I know it sounds like a lot of us are always giving negatives, but seeing that most of us lived there a lot longer than 3 YEARS and had a much more emotional attachment to South Africa than you will ever have and a some even still have vast bussiness interest in SA I think we have a right to tell people what could and are highly likely to happen.
> 
> You on the other hand can not let anyone say anything "bad" about your new country.(Or is it realy your new country, because will you stay put when something big really starts to go wrong or will you run back to your own country) You will go on forever and ever that nothing will happen, how safe it is that your wife and child will not get raped blah blah blah. There are websites that actually give a lot more details than NEWS24 and those mainstream news and these incidents are not the ones happening in poor townships. DO not try to tell anyone that most people there live in harmony and without any fear, because like I said we lived there a hell of a lot longer that you and seeing that we all emigrated means that we all possess some form of education and skills. We know what is going on there. I just wish you guys would stop and trying to paint these rosy pictures for prospective immigrants, because do not tell me that you would go down to any pub/coffeeshop at night and enjoy a hasslefree night out without any sense of fear, being violated, like I can do in my town. Or take your kids to a park at the foreshore on a Friday night and the only fear would be that they will fall of the monkey bars. Because we know that is not true.


MartinW,

Let me just stop you there. I have been BACK for 3 years - I have lived here for a good few decades prior to living in the UK, so please, no lectures required on SA from you. That should take care of most of your post / drivel you wrote. 

You should know facts about a person before spewing rubbish about what you think you may know about them.


----------



## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Darko said:


> Nope Chapito. There are NO guarantees, your risks will simply be minimised. Then again, I donm't know of any place on earth that can offer such a guarantee.


Just to add, Chapito, that if you are looking for such a guarantee then do not move to SA.


----------

