# DNI and dual citizenship



## Fjordlover (Mar 27, 2014)

Hi! I'm a dual citizen of Spain and the US, and I've had a Spanish passaport for years, but I never bothered to get a DNI since I don't live in Spain. But after I renewed my passaport a year and a half ago, the embassy staff said for me to just pop into a police station and get one. Since I visit Madrid at least once a year, I went to a local police station to get one, but the office staff there sent me to another office because I was not born in Spain, but in the US. I went to this office (the registry office, I believe) but of course, you need to make an appointment online. 

This time around I tried to do that, but the webpage doesn't seem to be any help since I don't have a DNI or NIE to register with. Anyone have experienced this and have any advice?


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Spain unlike USA and UK do not as a rule permit citizens with Spanish nationality to also have the nationality of another country. There are exceptions, like former citizens of Spanish colonies, so I would suggest check out your situation before you show out officially that have Spanish and USA nationality. I have a friend with Swiss and Spanish nationality, she take care never to carry both passports.


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Fjordlover said:


> Hi! I'm a dual citizen of Spain and the US, and I've had a Spanish passaport for years, but I never bothered to get a DNI since I don't live in Spain. But after I renewed my passaport a year and a half ago, the embassy staff said for me to just pop into a police station and get one. Since I visit Madrid at least once a year, I went to a local police station to get one, but the office staff there sent me to another office because I was not born in Spain, but in the US. I went to this office (the registry office, I believe) but of course, you need to make an appointment online.
> 
> This time around I tried to do that, but the webpage doesn't seem to be any help since I don't have a DNI or NIE to register with. Anyone have experienced this and have any advice?


Is there a number you can call? 
Do they allow you to use a passport number? 

What a pain.


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Fjordlover said:


> , I went to a local police station to get one, but the office staff there sent me to another office because I was not born in Spain, but in the US. I went to this office (the registry office, I believe) but of course, you need to make an appointment online.


In Madrid (as in almost all Spain) it would be the Policía Nacional that deal with this, never ever the Policía Local, they are in effect traffic wardens with guns, not police as most would recognise the term.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

You need to go to a National Police Station that issues DNI's. You don't need to make an appointment online. In fact, you can't. According to this Spanish government website, this is what you should do to get your DNI: 

Si Vd. es español mayor de edad y carece de DNI...deberá dirigirse a una oficina de expedición y solicitar el trámite personalmente.

If you are a Spanish adult without a DNI... you should go to an issuing office and request the transaction personally.


----------



## Fjordlover (Mar 27, 2014)

larryzx said:


> Spain unlike USA and UK do not as a rule permit citizens with Spanish nationality to also have the nationality of another country. There are exceptions, like former citizens of Spanish colonies, so I would suggest check out your situation before you show out officially that have Spanish and USA nationality. I have a friend with Swiss and Spanish nationality, she take care never to carry both passports.


Spain does allow double nationality with the US. This was formalized by a treaty signed by former President Bush. I have had this confirmed both by the Spanish Embassy in Oslo and Washington, DC.

I've been to the police station, but they sent me to the registry because I wasn't born in Spain. But I can't make an appointment with the registry, because I don't have a DNI. Calling is not an option, since I do not have an opportunity to use hours of my work day to try to get through on the phone, nor the money for the phone bill it would incur. My mother (who also has dual nationality) got a DNI with no problem, because she was born in Spain. She just walked into the police station and got one in a few minutes. I don't need to have one, since I live outside of Spain, but eventually I would like to move back there, and it would be much easier if I had one.


----------



## Fjordlover (Mar 27, 2014)

kalohi said:


> You need to go to a National Police Station that issues DNI's. You don't need to make an appointment online. In fact, you can't. According to this Spanish government website, this is what you should do to get your DNI:
> 
> Si Vd. es español mayor de edad y carece de DNI...deberá dirigirse a una oficina de expedición y solicitar el trámite personalmente.
> 
> If you are a Spanish adult without a DNI... you should go to an issuing office and request the transaction personally.


I did this-they sent me to the registry, where I was told I had to make an appointment online, which I can't because I don't have a DNI or NIE (because I'm a citizen, not an immigrant!)

:confused2:


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Fjordlover said:


> *Spain does allow double nationality with the US. This was formalized by a treaty signed by former President Bush. I have had this confirmed both by the Spanish Embassy in Oslo and Washington, DC.
> *
> I've been to the police station, but they sent me to the registry because I wasn't born in Spain. But I can't make an appointment with the registry, because I don't have a DNI. Calling is not an option, since I do not have an opportunity to use hours of my work day to try to get through on the phone, nor the money for the phone bill it would incur. My mother (who also has dual nationality) got a DNI with no problem, because she was born in Spain. She just walked into the police station and got one in a few minutes. I don't need to have one, since I live outside of Spain, but eventually I would like to move back there, and it would be much easier if I had one.


Really!?!?! Do you know which treaty it was? 


Try another police station. It might work.


----------



## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

My OH, who was not born in Spain, is in the process of applying for citizenship and was told during an interview with the national police that they are the ones who issue the DNI if the application is approved.

If you have already spoken with the *national* police and they told you to go somewhere else, I would either go back and try to speak with someone else, or try a different location.


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Fjordlover said:


> Since I visit Madrid at least once a year, I went to a local police station to get one,


Sorry if I appear to be labouring this but you said 'local police'. That would seem to be that you mean Policía Local and not the National Police, 'local' to where you were staying.

If so as I and others have said, go to the National Police. for the area where you are staying, it only they who deal with DNI. Immigration offices which deal with residencia for non EU citizens, usually require an appointment, it is for that reason I believe you have failed to make it clear to the police where you went what you require and thus got the wrong advice.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Don't you have to be living in Spain and have your empadronamiento in order to get your DNI?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Don't you have to be living in Spain and have your empadronamiento in order to get your DNI?


the DNI is _Documento Nacional de Identitad_ - so I wouldn't have thought so - it's just the ID document which Spanish Nationals have to have


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

AllHeart said:


> Don't you have to be living in Spain and have your empadronamiento in order to get your DNI?


Why, you don't have to live in Spain to be a Spanish national.

Similarly, I don't have to live in UK to hold a UK passport.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> the DNI is _Documento Nacional de Identitad_ - so I wouldn't have thought so - it's just the ID document which Spanish Nationals have to have


 Good morning, Xabiachica. OMG that's awesome news! I didn't know that. My empadronamiento is ready on Wednesday. So I'll go on Monday to get the ball rolling for the DNI. Thanks for letting me know this. 

Fjordlover, here's a listing of the National Police locations:

Página oficial de la DGP-Documentación


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Why, you don't have to live in Spain to be a Spanish national.
> 
> Similarly, I don't have to live in UK to hold a UK passport.


 I'm really new.


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> Good morning, Xabiachica. OMG that's awesome news! I didn't know that. My empadronamiento is ready on Wednesday. So I'll go on Monday to get the ball rolling for the DNI. Thanks for letting me know this.
> 
> Fjordlover, here's a listing of the National Police locations:
> 
> Página oficial de la DGP-Documentación


I guess you know that a DNI is an ID document for Spanish nationals only. NIE is a *fiscal ID* for non Spanish nationals.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

larryzx said:


> I guess you know that a DNI is an ID document for Spanish nationals only. NIE is a *fiscal ID* for non Spanish nationals.


 
Yes, thank you. People on the forum explained that to me. Sorry if I'm so daft with all this, but I'm honestly trying my best. But often my best isn't good enough to figure things out. I really appreciate you guys helping me out so much.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> I guess you know that a DNI is an ID document for Spanish nationals only. NIE is a *fiscal ID* for non Spanish nationals.


AllHeart has newly-acquired Spanish citizenship - so she's correct to refer to the DNI, since that is what she is needing to arrange


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> AllHeart has newly-acquired Spanish citizenship - so she's correct to refer to the DNI, since that is what she is needing to arrange


My wife applied for Spanish Nationality a couple of years ago and as such I thought was aware that now applicants seemed to require fluent Spanish, and a fairly substantial knowledge of Spain and it's institutions before it would be granted, which would render unnecessary some of the questions raised in this thread. It appears that level of knowledge is not required everywhere.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> My wife applied for Spanish Nationality a couple of years ago and as such I thought was aware that now applicants seemed to require fluent Spanish, and a fairly substantial knowledge of Spain and it's institutions before it would be granted, which would render unnecessary some of the questions raised in this thread. It appears that level of knowledge is not required everywhere.


AllHeart didn't have to apply as such - it was hers by right - all she had to do was claim it

I would imagine that the OP of the thread is in the same position, from his posts


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> AllHeart didn't have to apply as such - it was hers by right - all she had to do was claim it


Rather like me, I now have dual Irish nationality to go with my UK one. I too did not need to know anything about Ireland.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

larryzx said:


> My wife applied for Spanish Nationality a couple of years ago and as such I thought was aware that now applicants seemed to require fluent Spanish, and a fairly substantial knowledge of Spain and it's institutions before it would be granted, which would render unnecessary some of the questions raised in this thread. It appears that level of knowledge is not required everywhere.


I don't believe that those requirements have been adopted, certainly not when we applied ate last year.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> Rather like me, I now have dual Irish nationality to go with my UK one. I too did not need to know anything about Ireland.



however - & hopefully Hepa will confirm this - but I'm sure that he & his wife didn't have to prove an understanding of Spanish or Spain when they applied for Spanish nationality by residency last year (though I know they speak Spanish)


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I don't believe that those requirements have been adopted, certainly not when we applied ate last year.





xabiachica said:


> however - & hopefully Hepa will confirm this - but I'm sure that he & his wife didn't have to prove an understanding of Spanish or Spain when they applied for Spanish nationality by residency last year (though I know they speak Spanish)


hah - great minds & all that!!


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> I don't believe that those requirements have been adopted, certainly not when we applied ate last year.


 
Hi Hepa. Have you and your wife received word yet of your application?

When I signed the documents for citizenship in Toronto, the Consulate General said that Spain is moving towards people having to know Spanish and having to know about Spain in order to get citizenship. But he said that is not law yet. I've seen discussion about this subject on the forum too.

But I don't know if those laws are being considered for people with birth nationality.

It is law in Canada that you need to know English and you need to know about Canada to get Canadian citizenship. Again, I don't know about birth nationality requirements.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Here's the discussion I was referring to:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ter-speak-spanish-know-bit-about-history.html


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Hi Hepa. Have you and your wife received word yet of your application?
> 
> When I signed the documents for citizenship in Toronto, the Consulate General said that Spain is moving towards people having to know Spanish and having to know about Spain in order to get citizenship. But he said that is not law yet. I've seen discussion about this subject on the forum too.
> 
> ...


No not yet, no hurry now, the kind British consulate extended my passport for one year.


----------



## Fjordlover (Mar 27, 2014)

Thanks for all the feedback!

It was the National Police I went to, just their local station in Madrid. I think I will try another station later-I'll be in Granada next year, so I might try there instead. The staff at the embassy made it sound so easy-just pop in and get one, and as I said before, my mother never had any problems, although she left Spain in 1969 when she married my dad.

I think it's a good idea to expect people who want citizenship to at least speak the language and know something about the country. I've been a citizen for 20+ years now, so this does not apply to me, but I speak Spanish fluently and probably know more about Spanish history than the average Spaniard.

Thanks again everyone for the input!


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hepa said:


> No not yet, no hurry now, the kind British consulate extended my passport for one year.


Great to hear the British consulate rescued you for now. 

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. I'd be so anxious to find out - probably set up my bed beside the mailbox.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Fjordlover said:


> Thanks for all the feedback!
> 
> It was the National Police I went to, just their local station in Madrid. I think I will try another station later-I'll be in Granada next year, so I might try there instead. The staff at the embassy made it sound so easy-just pop in and get one, and as I said before, my mother never had any problems, although she left Spain in 1969 when she married my dad.
> 
> ...


 You're welcome.  

Have you tried emailing them? That way it won't cost you money and you can do this outside of work hours. Their contact info is on the top right of this page:
Portal Oficial sobre el DNI electrÃ³nico :. Ideas Básicas

That way you don't have to wait another year. Also, since I'm going on Monday, I can ask questions of them for you. 

I wasn't born in Spain either and have my citizenship because my father was a Spaniard. I was actually born in Sweden. I feel sooo blessed and honoured to be allowed citizenship through this birth loophole. 

I see you're in Norway. I have family there, who I visited in 1992. Do you like it?


----------



## Fjordlover (Mar 27, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Have you tried emailing them? That way it won't cost you money and you can do this outside of work hours. Their contact info is on the top right of this page:
> Portal Oficial sobre el DNI electrÃ³nico :. Ideas Básicas
> ...


Oh, thanks! I'll try the e-mail. When its come to getting in touch with any Spanish governmental agency, it's a nightmare. They are about 10 years behind Northern Europe digitally. If you manage to ask them when you go tomorrow, post the answer here. I probably need to bring more current residency documents.

I have my citizenship through the same loophole, along with the law that anyone in the Americas can get citizenship if at least one parent was a Spaniard.

I like Norway. It has its advantages and disadvantages like anywhere else. The main advantage that it's cheap to travel anywhere since it is nightmarishly expensive here. I can eat out all day in Madrid at reasonably priced restaurants and caferterias, and it usually is cheaper than my daily grocery bill here in Oslo!


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Fjordlover said:


> Oh, thanks! I'll try the e-mail. When its come to getting in touch with any Spanish governmental agency, it's a nightmare. They are about 10 years behind Northern Europe digitally. If you manage to ask them when you go tomorrow, post the answer here. I probably need to bring more current residency documents.
> 
> I have my citizenship through the same loophole, along with the law that anyone in the Americas can get citizenship if at least one parent was a Spaniard.
> 
> I like Norway. It has its advantages and disadvantages like anywhere else. The main advantage that it's cheap to travel anywhere since it is nightmarishly expensive here. I can eat out all day in Madrid at reasonably priced restaurants and caferterias, and it usually is cheaper than my daily grocery bill here in Oslo!


You're welcome. Just let me know what you want me to ask the National Police.

Yes, we both have citizenship through a birth loophole, but I think you're claiming citizenship through a parent who was/is a Spaniard, but you were born with an American citizenship and not with a Spanish citizenship. Is that correct? If so, I believe your citizenship was obtained through Spanish law, not American law. Here's a piece on Wikipedia about this. I'm way out of my league here, so if this is incorrect, I hope someone on the forum will step in to clarify...
Spanish nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my case, I was born a Spanish citizen. In Sweden, a person takes the citizenship of their father. So even though my parents were married and my mother had Swedish citizenship, because my father was a Spanish citizen, I was born a Spaniard. It's still the same in Sweden. Does that make sense?

With respect to claiming what you call "dual citizenship," this may be a misnomer, strictly speaking. Even though I have Canadian citizenship and Spanish citizenship, I am not considered a dual citizen. In Canada, I'm a Canadian citizen, and in Spain, I'm a Spanish citizen. Again, this is something people here on the forum explained to me, and this was confirmed by the Spanish Consulate in Toronto. I don't know about the US, but there are some Americans on this forum who may clarify this.

I hope that helps. Again, please let me know what you want me to ask tomorrow at the National Police Station. One thing that comes to mind is perhaps the clarification of the place you call "the registry." I don't know what that means. But if that is where you're supposed to go, perhaps I can get the contact info of that place for you, if you know the actual proper name of "the registry?"


----------



## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> Really!?!?! Do you know which treaty it was?


My OH found this on the website of the Spanish consulate in Miami:

1.1. El ciudadano español que adquiere voluntariamente la nacionalidad estadounidense, si no han transcurrido tres años desde la fecha de tal adquisición tiene que firmar el Acta de Conservación de la nacionalidad española para poder tener la nacionalidad española y la estadounidense. De lo contrario, perderá su nacionalidad española en el plazo de 3 años. [...]

Nacionalidad

Sounds like a one-way street: If you are Spanish first and then obtain U.S. citizenship, you can have dual citizenship recognized by Spain if you do the correct paperwork within 3 years. If you do nothing, you forfeit your Spanish citizenship. 

We haven't found anything, however, that indicates you can have dual citizenship recognized by Spain if you are a U.S. citizen first and then become Spanish.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Here's something that may interest you. This is from a link that the forum member Zenkarma posted in the thread where we discussed the dual citizenship issue. Here's what they say re dual citizenship, with specifics about the US: 


*Dual Nationality*

_In becoming a Spanish citizen, you may or may not obtain dual nationality or be required to renounce your current citizenship. Citizens of Latin American countries, Andorra, Portugal, the Philippines, or Equatorial Guinea are not required to renounce their citizenship, and their dual nationality is bilaterally recognized._

_In other cases things can go a bit differently. For example, UK citizens, when becoming a Spanish citizen, are required to renounce their previous citizenship, yet this is not allowed by the UK. This means that you would then have two nationalities (but not dual nationality) as Spain would not recognize the UK nationality. _

_US citizens, if they do not intend to relinquish their US citizenship, may renounce their US citizenship to the Spanish government as required to obtain Spanish citizenship, but still retain their US citizenship anyway. Needless to say, Spain would not recognize the US nationality. _

_In the case of citizens of other countries, it is possible you may lose your original citizenship upon acquiring Spanish citizenship._

_As a general rule, if you are not a citizen of a Latin American country, Andorra, Portugal, the Philippines, or Equatorial Guinea and you wish to retain your original citizenship as well as acquire Spanish citizenship, you should consult a legal professional for the latest policies regarding Spain and your country of original citizenship._

_Where possible, you should always use the passport of the country you’re entering. For example, if you have US and Spanish citizenship, use your Spanish passport when arriving in Spain and your US passport when arriving in the US._

Here's Zenkarma's link that I've quoted the above from: Spanish Citizenship and Dual Nationality : How to become a Spanish Citizen: Spain Expat

I hope that helps.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Question: How can an American be living and working in Norway without a DNI?


----------



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

AllHeart said:


> Question: How can an American be living and working in Norway without a DNI?


They likely have Norwegian residency permission. The DNI wouldn't be necessary.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> They likely have Norwegian residency permission. The DNI wouldn't be necessary.


 Gotcha.

Fjordlover, I went to the police station today. I think I figured it out for you! :whoo: Are you still there?


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Well, I guess Fjordlover isn't around. I'll post the information here anyway, in case someone else in the future needs it...

*Re the police location...* Like you guys are saying here, there are the Policia Nacional (National Police) and Policia Local (local police). In any area, the Policia Nacional have smaller locations and one main location. I don't know what the Spanish term is for these. But in my terminology the main location is the headquarters for the area. For a person getting their DNI for the first time, they have to go to the headquarters location. So I'm living in the Centro District of Malaga, so my 'local' Policia Nacional is Ramos Marin, but the 'headquarters' is Plaza Manuel Azana. Página oficial de la DGP-Dependencias policiales

*Re the registry...* This refers to el Registro Civil (the civil registry). To get your DNI for the first time, you have to provide a birth certificate that is expressly written for getting your DNI, and the Registro Civil has birth certificates. This was thankfully explained to me by people on the forum a few months ago, so I have my letter. Here is the website for the Registro Civil, with the email contact link on the bottom left, "contactar." You do not need a DNI to correspond with them:
https://www.certificadodelregistrocivil.es/

The problem for those of us born outside of Spain is that the Registro Civil may not have a record of our birth certificate. Mine was registered at the Embassy of Spain in Sweden, so that is where I got mine. It's also important to note that this birth certificate letter is only good for 6 months before applying for your DNI.

*Re empadronamiento.... *For those of us applying for our DNI for the first time, we have to live in Spain, and we have to provide our empadronamiento to get our DNI. The empadronamiento also has an expiration date to apply for the DNI, i.e. 3 months after receiving our empadronamiento. 

There are other specific requirements for first-time applicants, but the above three requirements are the biggies. Here's a really clear explanation on requirements for first-time applicants - see Question #3:
Portal Oficial sobre el DNI electrónico :. Preguntas Frecuentes#

I've been helped so very much by people on this forum. So I hope to return the favour by helping someone else out with this information. That's what makes the world go 'round, eh?


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I just received a private message saying some of the information I posted in my last post is incorrect. So I think it would be useful to copy and paste the information that I gave the link for above. Again, this is the link, from the Ministerio del Interior, National Police: Portal Oficial sobre el DNI electrÃ³nico :. Preguntas Frecuentes#

This is what I was referring to in Question #3. This does not translate well on Google. So as much as only English is allowed by the forum rules, I will post this in Spanish, and hope that's okay. I have bolded the parts about the registry and the empadronamiento:

*3.- ¿Qué documentación debo presentar para obtener por primera vez el DNI?*
Para solicitar la expedición del DNI será imprescindible la presencia física de la persona a quien se vaya a expedir, el abono de la tasa legalmente establecida y la presentación de los siguientes documentos:

*- Certificación literal de nacimiento expedida por el Registro Civil correspondiente, expedida con una antelación máxima de 6 meses a la fecha de presentación de la solicitud y con la mención expresa de que se expide a los solos efectos de obtener este documento.*

- Una fotografía reciente en color con fondo blanco con la cabeza totalmente descubierta, sin gafas de cristales oscuros o cualquier otra prenda que pueda impedir la identificación de la persona.

*-Primera inscripción. Certificado o volante de empadronamiento del Ayuntamiento donde el solicitante tenga su domicilio, expedido con una antelación máxima de tres meses a la fecha de la solicitud del Documento Nacional de Identidad.
*
- Los españoles residentes en el extranjero acreditarán el domicilio mediante certificación de la Representación Diplomática o Consular donde 
estén inscritos como residentes.

- Cuando el solicitante sea menor de 14 años o incapaz, se hará entrega del documento en presencia de la persona que tenga encomendada la patria potestad o la tutela, o persona apoderada por estas últimas.

- Si es menor de edad pero mayor de 14 años, deberá recogerlo personalmente.
En el momento de la solicitud, al interesado se le recogerán las impresiones de las huellas dactilares de los dedos índices de ambas manos.


----------

