# religion and politics...



## MrsRose

Not to start a controversial thread (no seriously, controversy and quarreling are NOT the intention of this thread) but I am curious about politics, etc in NZ. 

From the perspective of those who live in New Zealand: What is your take on the government, people, political attitudes, etc in your country? 

some examples...
Is the government favored and respected by the people of New Zealand in general? 

Is NZ more of a liberal or conservative nation? Or does this vary by city?

What are the most controversial political issues for kiwis today? (for example: in the States, things like national debt, gay marriage, abortion, health insurance, and the economy in general seem to be the big issues in our upcoming presidential election)


Just a few topics I'd like some insight on from all of you who live in NZ. 
And feel free to add any other insights you might have regarding the country's politics, religions, issues, and, or course, please add some the the things you love about the nation of NZ as it pertains to these topics. 

(And again....PLEASE don't turn this into a quarrelsome thread.


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## USAGary

I would say that the biggest topics in the upcoming USA election are the stonewalling done by conservatives to block any meaningful economic and social reforms which are wanted by the vast majority of Americans, the despised Citizen United doctrine that has allowed non-citizens and corporations to give unlimited campaign contributions that buy elections for their cause, the incredibly unfair shift of money to 1% of the USA population which has set up a ruling class and all the class warfare that comes with it, rampant racism and all the big money that supports it, and general tyranny of the rich. It seems that socialism isn't akin to Hitler in New Zealand like some in the USA say. But hey, I won't finish moving to the North Island for another two months so I will be able to afford more opinions then.


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## MrsRose

I don't need info on issues in the States. I live in the States. And there are about as many different opinions in this country about the problems facing us and who's to blame as there are people living in it. And blaming any one group for everything is far to massive of a generalization. 

Anyways, I'm just looking for general info and opinions on New Zealand. Not only for myself, but for the benefit of all of those on this forum who are considering making NZ their new home. It helps to be thoroughly educated in all areas of NZ life before making the move. I'm sure it will make for a more smooth adjustment from one culture to another.


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## topcat83

MrsRose said:


> Not to start a controversial thread (no seriously, controversy and quarreling are NOT the intention of this thread) but I am curious about politics, etc in NZ.
> 
> From the perspective of those who live in New Zealand: What is your take on the government, people, political attitudes, etc in your country?
> 
> some examples...
> Is the government favored and respected by the people of New Zealand in general?
> 
> Is NZ more of a liberal or conservative nation? Or does this vary by city?
> 
> What are the most controversial political issues for kiwis today? (for example: in the States, things like national debt, gay marriage, abortion, health insurance, and the economy in general seem to be the big issues in our upcoming presidential election)
> 
> 
> Just a few topics I'd like some insight on from all of you who live in NZ.
> And feel free to add any other insights you might have regarding the country's politics, religions, issues, and, or course, please add some the the things you love about the nation of NZ as it pertains to these topics.
> 
> (And again....PLEASE don't turn this into a quarrelsome thread.


Haha! As you may have noticed we do have some contributors who like a good bicker! We encourage healthy debate but try and stop it getting personal. NZ isn't perfect - but where is??

So here's my call on your questions:

Generally NZ people are fairly liberal - as in most don't have extremist views. As everywhere, some do - and there are certainly some Maori who (IMHO) are the most racist people I have ever come across (I mention Hone Harawira - born John Hatfield). But at least they have the right to talk, and are taken notice of. There are many countries where this is not the case.

We have a form of proportional representation in Parliament, which means people will generally vote for the party that has policies that are closest to their own beliefs rather than tactical voting to keep the party they don't want out. So the third main party in NZ are the "Greens' with over 10% of the vote at the last election. There are also a couple of smaller parties, but mainly it's between National (right wing) and Labour (left wing). Usually the government needs to form a coalition but (IMHO) I think this works in NZ because it keeps the party that's in power honest and works OK because we don't have the extremes that sometimes make other proportional representation fail (for example in Israel).

Our current PM (John Key) is a good showman - but what politician isn't? I think he's mis-read a few situations recently (Crafer farms being sold to China, Sky City Casino deal, the sale of part of the State-owned energy companies, changes in Education policy) and I think this is affecting his popularity - which seems pretty low. But we are mid-term between elections so I think that's fairly standard too.

See New Zealand Parliament - Current MPs for a full list of current MPs and their parties.

On your other questions - 

Gay marriage - we're a pretty laid-back lot - live and let live. Some of the older population don't agree. But bear in mind that homosexuality has only been legal in NZ since 1986, so they grew up in a different society to today's generation. 
One of the things that also surprised me is that prostitution is legal and that there are adverts on radio at every hour of the day for sex products and (which made me choke the first time I heard it) for girls to work in 'Gentlemens' Clubs' with 'great earning potential, free health care and flexible working hours'. 

You'll also have to get used to the use of some words that would be considered offensive in the US - 'Bu&&er' is in general use, and just means 'bother'. There's even an ad got the Toyota Hilux that contains only that word! (see 



)

Religion - if there's a religion for it, there will be a church somewhere here. We have some 'evangelist' types. The one that springs to mind is Brain Tamaki from 'Destiny Church'. These seem to be frequented by Pacific Islanders mainly, who are very religious, and probably the ones that can least afford the payments that these kinds of church 'request'. 
I'm probably not the best one to ask about any religion as (IMHO) the world would have less wars without it.

And health insurance - well, what can I say? We don't have any, and don't feel a burning urge to go out and buy any. We've had to use the public health service a number of times (my husband has had a heart attack and a quadruple heart bypass on it) and we have nothing but praise. But others will have different stories. 

That's my pulpit talk given


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## dodgerodger

MrsRose said:


> Not to start a controversial thread (no seriously, controversy and quarreling are NOT the intention of this thread) but I am curious about politics, etc in NZ.
> 
> From the perspective of those who live in New Zealand: What is your take on the government, people, political attitudes, etc in your country?
> 
> some examples...
> Is the government favored and respected by the people of New Zealand in general?
> 
> Is NZ more of a liberal or conservative nation? Or does this vary by city?
> 
> What are the most controversial political issues for kiwis today? (for example: in the States, things like national debt, gay marriage, abortion, health insurance, and the economy in general seem to be the big issues in our upcoming presidential election)
> 
> 
> Just a few topics I'd like some insight on from all of you who live in NZ.
> And feel free to add any other insights you might have regarding the country's politics, religions, issues, and, or course, please add some the the things you love about the nation of NZ as it pertains to these topics.
> 
> (And again....PLEASE don't turn this into a quarrelsome thread.


The Labour party is the left, the National Party is on the right but people Kiwi's don't really talk about the government unless it is to complain that the wages need to be higher or the 15% good and services tax is too high.
The way I see it when I lived in NZ was that the kiwi's are always complaining that they don't get enough handouts from the government even though they get tons.

God does not really play a part in New Zealand; New Zealand is a rather secular country when it comes to God BUT then there is Rugby which is the national religion.


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## MrsRose

'Bu&&er' is not an offensive word in the States. (At least, no where that I have lived.) I've rarely ever even heard anyone say it, unless they're just doing a silly British impersonation. 

It's interesting to note that some words, in one culture, can be so offensive, and in another culture, mean almost nothing. 


So what do you mean when you say churches "request" payments? My husband and I are Christians (though our definition of a "Christian" is probably very different from the typical depiction of what a Christian is/believes.) and the idea of a church taking payments from those who attend sounds absurd. My best guess is that is those church leaders' selfish way of twisting the meaning behind scriptures concerning church tithing. There are churches like that here in the States too. They take advantage of those who come to learn about/worship God, and become very rich. A VERY small portion of the money (if any) goes to anything it SHOULD go to...like caring for the poor, helping those in need, etc... 

So does NZ have a lot of political and economic dealings with China? 

Oh, and another question I have is about food. (haha) 
I've heard some say that NZ is a very health-conscious nation, and others say the exact opposite. I guess I'm hoping that the food in NZ is different from the U.S. Here, there are so many artificial ingredients, GMOs, etc put into our foods. You really have to go out of your way in the States to purchase whole foods and organic foods. Is it difficult to find healthy food choices in NZ as well?

Prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas (believe it or not) but it's still goes on ALL the time here. Since it's legal in NZ, is it everywhere? I mean, other than hearing adverts on the radio and such? Are there "gentlemen's clubs" in all the cities? 


Sorry if I'm presenting too many questions at once.


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## dodgerodger

1. As far as I know; tithing is non mandatory in most churches here.

2. New Zealand Government *LOVES* China; NZ has a freetrade agreement with them and I am sure that if there was a war between the US and China; NZ would be flying the red flag.

3. I was a pretty healthy eater in the the US but when I moved to NZ the lack of good healthy ingredients at a price I could afford really threw me off my healthy path.
There is no wholefoods store in NZ or anything like it; there are fish n chip stores on every corner, milk is $8+ a gallon (so is gas) 
I gained a whole bunch of weight while living in nz; only just now loosing it since moving back to LA.
There are actually believe it or not more fat people in NZ per capita than in the US.


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## MrsRose

dodgerodger said:


> 1. As far as I know; tithing is non mandatory in most churches here.
> 
> 2. New Zealand Government *LOVES* China; NZ has a freetrade agreement with them and I am sure that if there was a war between the US and China; NZ would be flying the red flag.
> 
> 3. I was a pretty healthy eater in the the US but when I moved to NZ the lack of good healthy ingredients at a price I could afford really threw me off my healthy path.
> There is no wholefoods store in NZ or anything like it; there are fish n chip stores on every corner, milk is $8+ a gallon (so is gas)
> I gained a whole bunch of weight while living in nz; only just now loosing it since moving back to LA.
> There are actually believe it or not more fat people in NZ per capita than in the US.



It's hard to imagine that ANYWHERE on earth could have more overweight people than the US! 

Our family doesn't drink milk. We drink almond milk. is there any of that in NZ? 
And we make most of our food from scratch (raw, whole food ingredients) so I'm not super worried about not being able to find the same stuff as in the States. 
Are things like produce, rice, beans, nuts, etc expensive there?


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## MrsRose

*concerning realtions with China...*



dodgerodger said:


> 1. As far as I know; tithing is non mandatory in most churches here.
> 
> 2. New Zealand Government *LOVES* China; NZ has a freetrade agreement with them and I am sure that if there was a war between the US and China; NZ would be flying the red flag.
> 
> 3. I was a pretty healthy eater in the the US but when I moved to NZ the lack of good healthy ingredients at a price I could afford really threw me off my healthy path.
> There is no wholefoods store in NZ or anything like it; there are fish n chip stores on every corner, milk is $8+ a gallon (so is gas)
> I gained a whole bunch of weight while living in nz; only just now loosing it since moving back to LA.
> There are actually believe it or not more fat people in NZ per capita than in the US.



It's probably just as well. I think China owns more of the U.S. than the U.S. does. :laugh:


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## jawnbc

Funny kiwi vocabulary story. In 2001 I dragged my two best mates (friends) to NZ for a holiday. Air NZ had a sale on, so we hit the North island, as well as Raro and a bit of French Polynesia. We still talk about that trip--and now they promise to come visit me often in Auckland once I'm there. 

But I digress... 

I explained to them that the work "d1ckhead" doesn't' have the same connotation as it does in Canada. I also explained about how some kiwis have rather clipped vowels in their speech. And for the first couple of days they razzed me mercilessly about it all being BS.

We stopped in a tea house en route to Northland--empty in August except for us and the proprietor--and got some lovely tea and scones and enjoyed the views over the gulf. A mother and young daughter came in shortly thereafter--I'd guess the little girl was 6 or 7. 

Mummy: Suh how wuz school today?
Girl: Jummy wuz bein' a deckhid.

The guys nearly sprayed their teas. After that we heard d1ckhead almost every day. 

(I apologize if my attempts to orthographize a kiwi accent has offended)!


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## topcat83

jawnbc said:


> Funny kiwi vocabulary story. In 2001 I dragged my two best mates (friends) to NZ for a holiday. Air NZ had a sale on, so we hit the North island, as well as Raro and a bit of French Polynesia. We still talk about that trip--and now they promise to come visit me often in Auckland once I'm there.
> 
> But I digress...
> 
> I explained to them that the work "d1ckhead" doesn't' have the same connotation as it does in Canada. I also explained about how some kiwis have rather clipped vowels in their speech. And for the first couple of days they razzed me mercilessly about it all being BS.
> 
> We stopped in a tea house en route to Northland--empty in August except for us and the proprietor--and got some lovely tea and scones and enjoyed the views over the gulf. A mother and young daughter came in shortly thereafter--I'd guess the little girl was 6 or 7.
> 
> Mummy: Suh how wuz school today?
> Girl: Jummy wuz bein' a deckhid.
> 
> The guys nearly sprayed their teas. After that we heard d1ckhead almost every day.
> 
> (I apologize if my attempts to orthographize a kiwi accent has offended)!


Beginning to love this thread!

Another thing to bear in mind - instead of an 'e' a Kiwi will pronounce an 'i'
So there's a radio advert over here where someone is 'scrubbing his dick' - actually he's referring to the wooden patio area out the back of his house!


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## topcat83

scottjames84 said:


> You might want to change your diet if you move to nz, the things you mentioned like almond milk etc are criminaly expensive in new Zealand; I mean like getting a second mortgage expensive almost.
> 
> Organic foods in new Zealand is a very small market and so prices are crazy.
> We already spend $300 a week on food in new Zealand and get less than what we got in USA for $100 and that isn't even buying good healthy foods.


My advice is - eat with the seasons.

Because we don't fly so much stuff in, prices are extremely seasonal. Tomatoes, peppers and salad are a lot at the moment, but carrots, parsnips and pumpkins are cheap. 
So it can be really difficult to compare prices.


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## USAGary

MrsRose said:


> ...blaming any one group for everything is far to massive of a generalization...


Normally it would be but in the USA it can decidedly be blamed on conservatives for creating the problems - and blocking popular solutions - in the USA (and possibly world) .

Seems to have spread to New Zealand in the form of the National Party and John Key - "NZ PM popularity sliding downwards."


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## Dani6

MrsRose said:


> It's hard to imagine that ANYWHERE on earth could have more overweight people than the US!
> 
> Our family doesn't drink milk. We drink almond milk. is there any of that in NZ?
> And we make most of our food from scratch (raw, whole food ingredients) so I'm not super worried about not being able to find the same stuff as in the States.
> Are things like produce, rice, beans, nuts, etc expensive there?


Almond milk is outrageously expensive, as is is cow's milk (pathetic when you think about how much is produced)

It's far cheaper to make your own almond milk, just soak the nuts to get the enzymes going and then blend with water. Finding honest to goodness organic food is very much trial and error as New Zealand's standards aren't as strict as more developed countries, neither is the testing regime. You're better off growing your own if you're able.

Most of the high quality food in New Zealand gets siphoned off for the export market and yes New Zealand food has just as much fat, sugar and useless ingredients added as other western countries. It is expensive because of location, population size and GST. Many British people complain about products like baked beans, ketchup etc. having too much sugar. 

New Zealanders do have a love affair with their fast food shops and takeouts. I think it has one of the highest numbersof McDonald's restaurants in the world, then there's Wendys, Burger Fuel, KFC, hot dinner shops, Hell Pizza, fish and chips, Asian etc. etc. etc........

New Zealand has a problem with obesity and diabetes. 27.7% of males and 27.8% of females are obese, one in three adults are overweight. Approximately 31% of children aged 5 to 14 years are overweight/obese


> Television use, buying school food from the dairy/takeaway shops, skipping breakfast, consumption of fruit drinks/soft drinks, and low physical activity were associated with BMI in analyses controlling for demographic characteristics among the total population. Buying school food from the dairy/takeaway (p=0.04) and skipping breakfast (p=0.007) retained significance when all nutrition behaviours and physical activity were analysed simultaneously. Significant interactions between ethnicity and bringing school food from home and buying school food from school were observed in relation to BMI.


Politics can be undemocratic and list MPs can gain seats in parliament without anyone actually voting for them. There is no upper house to moderate the the ruling party so it can basically do what it wants, including rail roading legislation under urgency as it pleases. Many a bad law has been made in haste (Hobbit, Skynet etc and now probably asset sales) and passed without going through proper public consultation and committee stages.

There are many accusations of cronyism going on around the Canterbury reconstruction, with allegations of contracts going to people who have links to staff working for the EQC



> prompted by the discovery of "a number of staff" with interests in businesses involved in the rebuild.
> 
> In one example investigated by The Press, a company owned by assessor Nikki Kettle and estimator Grant Todd quoted for the repair of a St Martins house this year.
> 
> Kettle, the daughter of claims manager Gail Kettle, was one of three EQC staff identified last year by The Press - the others were Zac Stiven, the 19-year-old son of EQC Canterbury events manager Reid Stiven, and Matt Searle, the son of senior manager Barry Searle – whose employment prompted allegations of nepotism and conflicts of interest.
> 
> Kettle formed a company called Re-Built Project Management in January with Todd. The Press understands Todd knew the owner of the St Martins house through sporting connections and then helped the owner to opt out of the EQC process.


Anything else you want to know just fire away.

(I did try to show the sources for all the above but the forum software won't let me post links yet)


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## topcat83

Dani6 said:


> ....
> (I did try to show the sources for all the above but the forum software won't let me post links yet)


with over 5 posts you should be able to now.


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## USAGary

OCCUPY WELLINGTON! 
:cheer2: :grouphug: :cheer2:


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## Song_Si

Dani6 said:


> Politics can be undemocratic and list MPs can gain seats in parliament without anyone actually voting for them.


The electoral system allows a voter to select their local candidate, and the party whose they support. Pick your local Member of Parliament who you believe will best represent your electorate, plus the party whose policies you support; may be the same of course, but gives the option for voting for eg Party X locally while supporting Party Y nationally.

*What is undemocratic about that?*

A national referendum was held about 20 years ago, voters had the choice, and chose MMP (mixed member proportional) which was used from 1996. Last year there was a review, and voters again had the choice of retaining or rejecting that electoral system. They chose to retain it.

All seems very democratic to me. It gives smaller parties a voice in Parliament they would not otherwise have and was I believe a welcome break from the previous two-party system. There are now eight parties represented in Parliament — ACT New Zealand, Green Party, Labour Party, Mana Party, Māori Party, National Party, New Zealand First, and United Future.


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## jawnbc

Exactly. It's democratic, even if it's not one's preferred voting system.

Undemocratic is not voting or one's vote not being counted due to corruption or tyranny.


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## Weta

I find the politics overall to be petty and childish and you're more likely to see a debate in the House about the colour of someone's hair, rather than any of the real issues of the country.

I have found that people are a lot more churchy than I am used to and I am very often made to feel like a heathen for being a non-believer. Personally I would never bring up the subject of religion among strangers but here I have been questioned at length in the workplace about my beliefs. I feel this is inappropriate but it's seen as a fast track way on how to win friends and influence people. When you work here you soon spot how some get to the top of the ladder and church plays a big part in this 'who you know' culture. If you know someone and they know someone else who goes to your church, then you're in. Its a bit of a closed shop, if you ever get invited to go to Church by a work colleauge then woebetide you if you don't go.


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## Weta

Song_Si said:


> A national referendum was held about 20 years ago, voters had the choice, and chose MMP (mixed member proportional) which was used from 1996. Last year there was a review, and voters again had the choice of retaining or rejecting that electoral system. They chose to retain it.


Its way too complicated. How many of them that chose to retain it didn't understand the question and then left wondering how the heck we end up with the likes of Winston Peters and John Banks in Parliament.


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## Weta

MrsRose said:


> What are the most controversial political issues for kiwis today? (for example: in the States, things like national debt, gay marriage, abortion, health insurance, and the economy in general seem to be the big issues in our upcoming presidential election)


The saddest thing of all is the apathy, these things are not in the daily mainstream water cooler conversations. The only controversy would be to dare mention or question the subjects at all. I think there's a distinct lack of interest in the issues of the day and that's why a lot of intellectuals and bright stars don't stick around for long.


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## Song_Si

^^ Winston Peters was first an MP in 1978 - almost twenty years before the introduction of MMP. He was a Cabinet Minster in the National Government.

He was elected as an MP three times - not via the party vote route.

NZ First got almost 7% of the party vote last year. In a democracy they deserve, and got, representation in Parliament

John Banks was an MP 1981 to 1999. He was voted in as MP for Epsom last year. 

There goes that argument.


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## topcat83

These negative posts are becoming a bit of a theme - andf I can only think that our forum is yet again being targeted by a load of sad gits. It's very boring... I really can't be bothered to argue with them any more. Hopefully sensible people will see their posts (and the other places they 'inhabit' on the web) and make their own judgement about how balanced they are. All they are doing is ruining the content of this forum for everyone - and that does nobody any good.

At the risk of being accused of deleting posts at random, I will start deleting some if I believe that the post are there as nothing but trouble-causers, and that they do not add value to this forum.

And I apologise to the useful contributors - please continue to post. We are not stupid and we do know who the trouble-makers are and are becoming very good at squashing them like the bugs they are.


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## USAGary

Weta said:


> I find the politics overall to be petty and childish


 Thanks for your honest opinion!


Weta said:


> I have found that people are a lot more churchy than I am used to and I am very often made to feel like a heathen for being a non-believer... Its a bit of a closed shop, if you ever get invited to go to Church by a work colleauge then woebetide you if you don't go.


Happens all the time around the world. Same as if you're posting "political A" opinions on a board where the powers that be are staunch "political B" advocates.

:ranger:


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## USAGary

I should have added that politics and religion chatter should be in a separate subforum. xtwocentsx


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## Weta

USAGary said:


> Thanks for your honest opinion!
> Happens all the time around the world. Same as if you're posting "political A" opinions on a board where the powers that be are staunch "political B" advocates.
> 
> :ranger:


I disagree, it's not normal and it doesn't happen all of the time around the world. Never in all my working years prior to coming to NZ have I had to justify or had my personal religeous beliefs called into question by an employer or co-worker. It is illegal in most of the Western world to discriminate against a person for their religeous leanings. 

Even if you think me incredibly naive I have never seen obvious in your face evidence of people being positively favoured in the workplace because they go to a particular Church. I also never received unsolicited religeous propaganda and messages in the workplace before but this is NZ and you soon come to expect the unexpected.


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## topcat83

Weta said:


> I disagree, it's not normal and it doesn't happen all of the time around the world. Never in all my working years prior to coming to NZ have I had to justify or had my personal religeous beliefs called into question by an employer or co-worker. It is illegal in most of the Western world to discriminate against a person for their religeous leanings.
> 
> Even if you think me incredibly naive I have never seen obvious in your face evidence of people being positively favoured in the workplace because they go to a particular Church. I also never received unsolicited religeous propaganda and messages in the workplace before but this is NZ and you soon come to expect the unexpected.


Justifying your personal religious beliefs? Here's another thing I've never come across in the five years I've been here. 

In my experience NZers are extremely tolerant of other religions & cultures. I have friends and work colleagues (and a relative) who are religious - they have _never_ forced their beliefs down my throat, asked me to attend one of their places of worship or otherwise made me feel bad for being without a religion.

If you were placed in this situation then you should have complained first to your HR department and if that failed you should have spoken to Citizen Advice - harassment in the workplace is illegal, and you would have had redress.

However your experience does _not_ mean that the whole of New Zealand is like it.


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## Weta

topcat83 said:


> If you were placed in this situation then you should have complained first to your HR department and if that failed you should have spoken to Citizen Advice - harassment in the workplace is illegal, and you would have had redress.
> 
> However your experience does _not_ mean that the whole of New Zealand is like it.



Gosh, touchy much? The question was asked and this was *my* experience thank you, close friends and family are a different kettle of fish and should indeed know one well enough to know where the boundaries lie. 

In my experience HR never helped anyone out of a tricky situation and if you're needing to go to CAB or seeking legal advice then you may as well just walk anyway. Not likely gonna win any friends or influence any people when you're the new immigrant.


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## MrsRose

Weta said:


> Gosh, touchy much? The question was asked and this was *my* experience thank you, close friends and family are a different kettle of fish and should indeed know one well enough to know where the boundaries lie.
> 
> In my experience HR never helped anyone out of a tricky situation and if you're needing to go to CAB or seeking legal advice then you may as well just walk anyway. Not likely gonna win any friends or influence any people when you're the new immigrant.



I don't think there was ant "touchiness" in that response. I think topcat83 was just, for the sake of everyone else on the forum, offering a balanced perspective of NZ regarding this issue...that not _everyone_ will have your experience.

It's kinda interesting though, cause as you stated, harassment and discrimination for religious beliefs are _not _allowed in most parts of the Western world. However, my husband and I are followers of Jesus, and you would not believe the *daily* harassment he gets from his coworkers because he's a Christian. It's almost juvenile the things they say, and the way they treat him because of it. And this is in the States where harassment in the workplace is usually not tolerated either.
Is it allowed? No. Does it go on anyway? Yes. 

So you see, it goes both ways, and it _does _happen all over the world, whether it's technically legal or not. I think it probably depends on an individual's specific workplace situation. No matter who you are, where you are, what you believe, or what you look like...the odd man out is always, well, the odd man out. That's not a NZ thing. That's a humanity thing. It's unfortunate. And we should rather be loving towards others regardless of our differences, rather than single them out and make them feel alienated. (and I do agree that the workplace is not the time or place to be harassed about your personal life)


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## topcat83

Weta said:


> Gosh, touchy much? ...


No, hopefully helpful. If you were put in that situation then you should have felt that there was somewhere you could go to for help and advice. I am hoping that if someone else finds themselves in the same situation they have some options they can follow now.


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## topcat83

MrsRose said:


> ...It's kinda interesting though, cause as you stated, harassment and discrimination for religious beliefs are _not _allowed in most parts of the Western world. However, my husband and I are followers of Jesus, and you would not believe the *daily* harassment he gets from his coworkers because he's a Christian. It's almost juvenile the things they say, and the way they treat him because of it. And this is in the States where harassment in the workplace is usually not tolerated either.
> Is it allowed? No. Does it go on anyway? Yes....


It still amazes me how intolerant some people can be of others and their beliefs. And there are some places in this world where discrimination because of your beliefs (or your non-beliefs) is written into law. At least in NZ (and generally in the States - although I think some states are coming close to introducing some very peculiar rules) it is illegal and there are things you can do if it happens.

I'm not religious at all but one of my best friends in the UK is a lay minister in a local church - and she asked me if I'd be one of the Godmothers to her daughter. She knows I don't believe in God, I asked her why she was therefore wanting me to be a Godmother and she replied that if anything happened to her then I was one of the people that she'd want to have an influence in her daughter's life. First time I've been to church for years, and it didn't change my views. But the other congregation members made us feel very welcome - and other than to say to us that we were very welcome to come again if we wanted to there was no coercion to join them at all.


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## carosapien

It depends on where you work. I've never had a problem with being made to feel awkward. But my partner worked for one company where a great emphasis was placed on contacts and networking. It was noticeable that the people who progressed (all men) were those who attended church together, had gone to the same high school or were valuable because of the people they knew outside the company. 

None of the people who attended church were religious, nor did they live by any Christian morals, to them it was just another chance to network and to be seen by the right people in the right places.


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## Weta

carosapien said:


> None of the people who attended church were religious, nor did they live by any Christian morals, to them it was just another chance to network and to be seen by the right people in the right places.


This is how I'm seeing it actually and if this does go on elsewhere I have not been on the receiving end. I have known and worked with many religious types of all creeds and nationalities and really I have no issue with those who genuinely do believe and quietly get on with it. 

It seems to me that NZ has picked up on the American evangelical thing in a way that the UK has not. For sure Auckland is a hotbed for these happy, clappy, new wave, commercial churches whose main aim seems to be that of earning money and finding more recruits, rather than practising what they preach. 

In a similarly new situation for me, I was blindsided at a work function at my OHs workplace and *advised* that I should refrain from booking weekend engagements that might prevent his attendance to boys days out at the weekends. They felt that I was a career limiting influence on him and they were concerned that he was missing out on the bonding experience and the career enhancing opportunites.


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## Song_Si

dodgerodger said:


> 2. New Zealand Government *LOVES* China; NZ has a freetrade agreement with them and I am sure that if there was a war between the US and China; NZ would be flying the red flag.


really? this would suggest otherwise; and note, supported by the main opposition party too.



> *Agreement with US sees NZ as 'de facto' ally *
> 20/06/2012
> 
> *A leading academic says New Zealand has become a "de facto ally" of the United States after signing a sweeping agreement on military cooperation in Washington early today.*
> 
> The Washington Declaration was signed by US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta and Defence Minister Jonathan Coleman at the Pentagon today.
> 
> Coleman said the declaration foreshadowed greater cooperation in key areas including maritime security, counter terrorism, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief in the region and promoted peace keeping and peace support initiatives.
> 
> ****
> "At a time when China's growing influence is the major regional trend, some observers will see the Declaration as evidence of New Zealand's growing alignment with Washington rather than a sign of what the Key government refers to as New Zealand's independent foreign policy."
> ****
> 
> Labour today welcomed the declaration and stressed the importance of New Zealand maintaining an independent foreign policy.
> 
> "As a small country, New Zealand wins respect from speaking from the perspective of its own values, principles and interests, not anyone else's," the party's foreign affairs spokesman Phil Goff said.
> 
> source and read more here


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## MrsRose

Weta said:


> This is how I'm seeing it actually and if this does go on elsewhere I have not been on the receiving end. I have known and worked with many religious types of all creeds and nationalities and really I have no issue with those who genuinely do believe and quietly get on with it.
> 
> It seems to me that NZ has picked up on the American evangelical thing in a way that the UK has not. For sure Auckland is a hotbed for these happy, clappy, new wave, commercial churches whose main aim seems to be that of earning money and finding more recruits, rather than practising what they preach.
> 
> In a similarly new situation for me, I was blindsided at a work function at my OHs workplace and *advised* that I should refrain from booking weekend engagements that might prevent his attendance to boys days out at the weekends. They felt that I was a career limiting influence on him and they were concerned that he was missing out on the bonding experience and the career enhancing opportunites.


 That's certainly not the heart of true, biblical Christianity. But we see much of that here in the States as well, for sure. "Christian" churches that have little to do with worship of God and following the teachings of Jesus, and much to do with raising money, having the best and most contemporary music during services, and "attracting" the most people. You really don't see much that resembles true Christianity in those churches... like genuine love for God, loving others and putting others first, repentance, feeding and helping the poor and those in need, living a life of humility, etc... It really is a shame.


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## USAGary

So the "expert" says the government is not acting as independent but the government says it is?



Song_Si said:


> really? this would suggest otherwise; and note, supported by the main opposition party too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreement with US sees NZ as 'de facto' ally
> 20/06/2012
> 
> *A leading academic [Victoria University Professor Robert Ayson] says New Zealand has become a "de facto ally" of the United States* after signing a sweeping agreement on military cooperation in Washington early today. "At a time when China's growing influence is the major regional trend, some observers will see the Declaration as evidence of New Zealand's growing alignment with Washington rather than a sign of what the Key government refers to as New Zealand's independent foreign policy."
> 
> *[Defence Minister Jonathan] Coleman said the declaration foreshadowed greater cooperation in key areas including maritime security, counter terrorism, humanitarian assistance and disaster relief in the region and promoted peace keeping and peace support initiatives.
> 
> Labour today welcomed the declaration and stressed the importance of New Zealand maintaining an independent foreign policy. "As a small country, New Zealand wins respect from speaking from the perspective of its own values, principles and interests, not anyone else's," the party's foreign affairs spokesman Phil Goff said. "The days are long gone where New Zealand simply follows the position of any other nation whether it is the UK, Australia or the US."*
Click to expand...

This isn't the first time this "expert" has stirred this pot and the government has stated their position before.


> "For the US really this is a situation where it would like to have an active partnership with New Zealand partly because it's concerned that it needs to boost these relationships, partly because it feels that there is a competition going on with China," Ayson said.
> 
> *Defence Minister Jonathan Coleman says New Zealand will continue to maintain warm relations with both China and the United States.*


BTW, IMO there is not a China/USA military confrontation coming in the foreseeable future unless the USA starts it (again).


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## Weta

MrsRose said:


> That's certainly not the heart of true, biblical Christianity. But we see much of that here in the States as well, for sure. "Christian" churches that have little to do with worship of God and following the teachings of Jesus, and much to do with raising money, having the best and most contemporary music during services, and "attracting" the most people. You really don't see much that resembles true Christianity in those churches... like genuine love for God, loving others and putting others first, repentance, feeding and helping the poor and those in need, living a life of humility, etc... It really is a shame.


You're right and you made me think, I don't even know where the local old-style Churches are around me. We only seem to see and hear from these modern day Big MacChurches, it makes me retch whenever I see these wealthy and glamorous Pastors and Bishops in the media. It seems people can now buy or text their way into heaven.


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## USAGary

Weta said:


> You're right and you made me think, I don't even know where the local old-style Churches are around me. We only seem to see and hear from these modern day Big MacChurches, it makes me retch whenever I see these wealthy and glamorous Pastors and Bishops in the media. It seems people can now buy or text their way into heaven.


*Buy your way to Heaven!*
Buy your way to Heaven! The Catholic Church brings back indulgences!!

_Send your money to Jesus Christ
Mail order your eternal life
Bend your mind, make you turn around
Don't believe it when they tell you
That eveng god needs money
God needs money from you_
-Nevermore, Godmoney

:ranger:


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## Song_Si

who do you trust? 
Today's _religion and politics _discussion rolled into one.
It's a very small survey pool - just 626 people polled - seems an extremely small number to me.



> *Destiny Church boss tops list of least-trusted
> 
> Destiny Church leader Brian Tamaki, MegaUpload founder Kim Dotcom, and former Pike River mine manager Peter Whittall have found themselves in the unenviable company of politicians in a list of people we trust least.*
> 
> Brian Tamaki, self-appointed bishop of the Destiny Church, is New Zealand's least-trusted public figure in the annual Reader's Digest poll.
> 
> For close company he has Mana Party leader Hone Harawira, internet tycoon Dotcom, former justice minister and finance company director Sir Douglas Graham, NZ First leader Winston Peter, and former Whanganui mayor Michael Laws. Mr Whittall rounds out the bottom 10.


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## jawnbc

In dog we trust.


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## jayp20

jawnbc said:


> Mummy: Suh how wuz school today?
> Girl: Jummy wuz bein' a deckhid.
> 
> The guys nearly sprayed their teas. After that we heard d1ckhead almost every day.
> 
> (I apologize if my attempts to orthographize a kiwi accent has offended)!


Hilarity!


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## Weta

Song_Si said:


> who do you trust?
> Today's _religion and politics _discussion rolled into one.
> It's a very small survey pool - just 626 people polled - seems an extremely small number to me.


I would concur with most on the list. I do have a modicum of sympathy for Dotcom being among that hall of shame. 

I guess there must be a whole lot more that have invested their life savings with the Reverend Pastor Grand Inquisitor Father Superior Jedi Master Leader of Homosexual Reform and First Maori Pope His Excellency Bishop Brian Tamaki. :eyebrows:


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## Song_Si

^ I'm not up with things at all re Mr Dotcom, his name surprised me as I didn't think enough people would 1. be aware who he was, or 2. have any reason to 'not trust' him. 
I wasn't aware he had done anything in NZ except spend money.

***

I'd have expected real estate agents to be the least-trusted profession; that poll gives:



> Least trusted were telemarketers, door-to-door salesmen and car salesmen.


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## Song_Si

^ more on above. Journalists!

found the full list here

here are the ten 'least trusted'

31. financial planners; 32. Call centre operators; 33. Chief executive officers; 34. Journalists; *35. real estate agents; *36. insurance salespeople; 37. sex workers; 38. Car salespeople; 39. Door-to-door
salespeople; 40. telemarketers


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## Weta

Song_Si said:


> ^ I'm not up with things at all re Mr Dotcom, his name surprised me as I didn't think enough people would 1. be aware who he was ...


I think that's funny! 

Can you imagine that the NZ news media could keep quiet about this large as life 'international fraudster' in our midst. One who was 'hauled from his multi-million dollar mansion at gunpoint' wanted for extradition by the FBI, around whom tales of political scandal and bribery abound. The small matters of donations to Auckland City Councillors for fireworks and Mayoral campaigns, plus a spare $1m to Christchurch and some unanswered questions surrounding his residency application.  


It's the biggest thing since, erm .................. the last biggest thing.


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## carosapien

He gave a ton of money to John Banks when he was running for mayor. Banksie asked him to split it up into smaller amounts so he wouldn't have to declare it and then was caught out when he lied about knowing Dotcom? 

I tell you, NZ politicians make even 'international fraudsters' look honest :eyebrows:


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

On religion: in my experience, NZ has a higher proportion of churchgoers than the UK, but religion is much less part of the cultural backdrop.

No church leader here has a profile as significiant as, say, the Archbishop of Canterbury. Brian Tamaki only makes the news when he pulls some stunt, he's only been around for a few year; the probability is that a few years from now everyone will have forgotten him.

The other two comments I'll make are:
1. NZ has lots of little churches, as contrasted with the UK in which the CofE, the RCs and the CofS account for the vast majority of churchgoers and religious observants in general.

2. a higher proportion of NZ churches are American-influenced fundamentalists than in the UK. NZ churchgoers will commonly express scepticism about evolution, for example, whereas a UK churchgoer will accept it. While there is an Anglican church here, it doesn't have anything like the reach or cultural influence of the CofE and is in decline. American-style fundamentalist churches are growing, as are the Roman Catholics. In the case of the latter, this is mainly due to immigration from Asia.


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