# this general strike on wednesday



## jojo

Any views on the strike expected?? Will affect any of us? What will it affect??? More importantly (for me!!), does anyone know if the schools will be open as usual???

For those who dont know, the unions in Spain are calling for a mass strike to show objections to the austerity measures, government cuts and changes for this coming Wednesday. Its just happened in France, I'm sure that the UK will be doing something too

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Any views on the strike expected?? Will affect any of us? What will it affect??? More importantly (for me!!), does anyone know if the schools will be open as usual???
> 
> For those who dont know, the unions in Spain are calling for a mass strike to show objections to the austerity measures, government cuts and changes for this coming Wednesday. Its just happened in France, I'm sure that the UK will be doing something too
> 
> Jo xxx


International schools might well be open - at least one in my area definitely is

state schools will be officially closed, although I know that my dd2's class teacher will be working

what usually happens in state schools is that some of the staff will be on hand to supervise any kids who go to school but there won't be any actual teaching

a teacher explained to me a few years ago that they have to provide somewhere for the kids to go by law - but don't actually have to teach them on a strike day

mind you that was just a teacher's strike - not a general national strike

I'm planning that my 2 will be home for the day


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Here schools will be open as you can't officially close ahead of a strike. 
Teachers, like everyone else have a right to strike, and are _*not obliged*_ to say beforehand if they're going on strike or not (defeats the purpose if they do). However, especially in primary schools, teachers may decide to tell students and/ or parents ahead of time of their intentions. 
So in reality the schools will be open and there will be a skeleton staff which will insure that the children are "looked after", but probably there won't be any teaching done.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here schools will be open as you can't officially close ahead of a strike.
> Teachers, like everyone else have a right to strike, and are _*not obliged*_ to say beforehand if they're going on strike or not (defeats the purpose if they do). However, especially in primary schools, teachers may decide to tell students and/ or parents ahead of time of their intentions.
> So in reality the schools will be open and there will be a skeleton staff which will insure that the children are "looked after", but probably there won't be any teaching done.


yes, that's exactly what happens here - they never officially tell us until the end of school the day before


----------



## jimenato

Does anybody here think that striking will help the situation in any way?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Does anybody here think that striking will help the situation in any way?


Does a strike _ever_ help a country going through a financial crisis?


----------



## nigele2

jimenato said:


> Does anybody here think that striking will help the situation in any way?


Yes I think it will. If you do nothing then history tells us that greedy power hungry people will take advantage. I would urge everyone who is able to show support for the Spanish. 

IMHO for too long the spanish have sat back watching Rome burn. I know that the franco years beat out of them the spirit of resistance and the lack of democracy left them feeling helpless but times have moved on. It will I am sure be a small beginning and many will have to work for fear of their jobs but from small acorns .....


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Does anybody here think that striking will help the situation in any way?


The strike isn't intended to "help" any situation. It is a way for people to stand up and be counted, to protest about being forced to take the rap for a financial crisis that wasn't caused by them, and to express dismay at Zapatero's pathetic collapse in the face of pressure from external forces.

I fully support the strikers and if I wasn't retired I'd be on strike too. It's easy to sit around complaining about the cuts, but these people are giving up a day's wages to stand up for their - and our - rights.


----------



## jimenato

It's always struck me that striking is a particularly negative way of making a point. 

An analogy; the ship has sprung a leak and is sinking. The crew perceives it as the captain's fault, in fact everybody else's fault but their own. The captain does the only thing he can do under the circumstances, he reduces the crew's rest time and sets them to bailing the ship. They demonstrate their displeasure by refusing.

Doesn't make much sense to me.


----------



## nigele2

jimenato said:


> It's always struck me that striking is a particularly negative way of making a point.
> 
> An analogy; the ship has sprung a leak and is sinking. The crew perceives it as the captain's fault, in fact everybody else's fault but their own. The captain does the only thing he can do under the circumstances, he reduces the crew's rest time and sets them to bailing the ship. They demonstrate their displeasure by refusing.
> 
> Doesn't make much sense to me.


But now the ship has sunk. The crew and captain are in the life boat. They are short of water and beginning to deteriorate. But the captain has a large bottle of water but he is not sharing.

So the crew say c'est la vie. He is the captain and we are scum crew. His live is worth ten of ours


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> It's always struck me that striking is a particularly negative way of making a point.
> 
> An analogy; the ship has sprung a leak and is sinking. The crew perceives it as the captain's fault, in fact everybody else's fault but their own. The captain does the only thing he can do under the circumstances, he reduces the crew's rest time and sets them to bailing the ship. They demonstrate their displeasure by refusing.
> 
> Doesn't make much sense to me.


OK, let's assume that the leak was caused by the passengers in the first-class cabins. The captain doesn't want to upset them because they might choose a different ship next time. So the crew not only have to continue keeping the first-class passengers in the style to which they are accustomed, but fix the leak for them so they don't get their feet wet.

Hmmm ...


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> OK, let's assume that the leak was caused by the passengers in the first-class cabins. The captain doesn't want to upset them because they might choose a different ship next time. So the crew not only have to continue keeping the first-class passengers in the style to which they are accustomed, but fix the leak for them so they don't get their feet wet.
> 
> Hmmm ...


Alcalaina I'll hold one end of the banner and you the other


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Alcalaina I'll hold one end of the banner and you the other


¡[email protected] vamos!

YouTube - IzquierdaUnida's Channel


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> ¡[email protected] vamos!
> 
> YouTube - IzquierdaUnida's Channel


I hope that the people do not expect too much of this. In Spain there is no organised resistance. Many will not demonstrate and just take a days holiday. But if small groups can get together and formulate ideas then so much the better. 

Two workers in Madrid:

My BIL has been told by his bosses that the factory will close but they must make up the time on the following days. They said the lack of public transport left them with no choice.

My step daughter. an airhostess, must work but that is minor abuse to what she is already suffering.


----------



## jimenato

nigele2 said:


> But now the ship has sunk. The crew and captain are in the life boat. They are short of water and beginning to deteriorate. But the captain has a large bottle of water but he is not sharing.
> 
> So the crew say c'est la vie. He is the captain and we are scum crew. His live is worth ten of ours


Is that an analogy? If so, of what?


----------



## nigele2

jimenato said:


> Is that an analogy? If so, of what?


It was merely a demonstration of how you can view anything as complex as the spanish social situation from many angles.

I assume your analogy implied you think there is not much wrong with the spanish system, the spanish should work harder for less to fix the 'crisis', and once the crisis is addressed all will be well. 

On the otherhand I believe the spanish society needs radical change.


----------



## country boy

At least you know your place


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> OK, let's assume that the leak was caused by the passengers in the first-class cabins. The captain doesn't want to upset them because they might choose a different ship next time. So the crew not only have to continue keeping the first-class passengers in the style to which they are accustomed, but fix the leak for them so they don't get their feet wet.
> 
> Hmmm ...


But the captain must try to keep his passengers or the line will go broke and his crew will all have no jobs!

Anyway, stopping pumping the ship won't help at all - it'll only hasten the end.


----------



## jimenato

nigele2 said:


> It was merely a demonstration of how you can view anything as complex as the spanish social situation from many angles.
> 
> I assume your analogy implied you think there is not much wrong with the spanish system, the spanish should work harder for less to fix the 'crisis', and once the crisis is addressed all will be well.
> 
> On the otherhand I believe the spanish society needs radical change.


Sorry, my analogy goes no further than illustrating the absurdity of striking under the current circumstances. There is an immediate problem that needs fixing. Fix it first and then worry about radical change.


----------



## nigele2

jimenato said:


> Sorry, my analogy goes no further than illustrating the absurdity of striking under the current circumstances. There is an immediate problem that needs fixing. Fix it first and then worry about radical change.


I would back you up all the way under most circumstances. But sadly even if the rest of the world recovers I believe Spain will be deep in the mire for years and years. And I think the unemployed young of spain can't wait.

But I guess if I am honest I don't think the Spanish have the ability to fight in the shortterm. Even my spanish step daughter has given up the struggle and when she is terminated in Feb, if she survives that long, she will head overseas. That I find very sad


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> But I guess if I am honest I don't think the Spanish have the ability to fight in the shortterm. Even my spanish step daughter has given up the struggle and when she is terminated in Feb, if she survives that long, she will head overseas. That I find very sad


That's not giving up Nigel; that's fighting! 
Giving up would be going on the dole here for as long as she can and then relying on the family to support her whilst looking for work in a economy that's not growing. 
Your step daughter is saying that's she's prepared to go abroad to look for work which at the best will be great adventure, but could turn out to be very tough, as I'm sure she's aware.
Maggie Thatcher didn't help me find work in the UK, but I went abroad and never looked back!


----------



## 90199

Talking about ships and crew. 

Almost fifty years ago Great Britain flew the red duster on ships all over the world and the vast majority of the crew were U.K. or Irish citizens, and to sail had to be members of the National Union of Seamen.

Then in 1966, the said N.U.S. called an all out strike and when the ships returned to a U.K. port the seamen duly went on strike and the ships were laid up.

The British red duster still flies on the stern of merchant ships, but the crews however are from third world countries, the National Union of seamen no longer exists. Thousands of jobs for British Seamen were lost, never to be regained. All as a result of strike action.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> But sadly even if the rest of the world recovers I believe Spain will be deep in the mire for years and years. And I think the unemployed young of spain can't wait.


I agree, but don't think a strike will help Spain make progress. 
Like many, I'm surprised that the Spanish haven't been in the street protesting more, but I don't think it's lack of will, I don't think it's got anything to do with what Spain was like when Franco was around (the potential strikers were not adults when Franco was in power, he's all but a distant memory) I think there's a lack of cohesion.
The last time there were people on the streets was when people demonstrated against the Iraqi war. There was no lack of street presence then - but nobody listened to what the people wanted. The time before that was against ETA when Miguel Angel Blanco was assassinated - massive turn out - but no one listened to the people. 
I think _that's_ what people may recall.

Plaza Colon, Madrid. Demonstration against ETA after the assassination of Miguel Angel Blanco. The people of Spain DO demonstrate when they are moved to.
The photo has the title Cuando fuimos hermanos - when we were brothers. 
One of the most emotional scenes I have witnessed


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> But now the ship has sunk. The crew and captain are in the life boat. They are short of water and beginning to deteriorate. But the captain has a large bottle of water but he is not sharing.
> 
> So the crew say c'est la vie. He is the captain and we are scum crew. His live is worth ten of ours


Thats a silly analogy! But if you want to use it, then I guess the scum crew can "get in there and do anything and everything to resolve the situation to give everyone a chance of staying alive or they can sulk and refuse to do anything cos they're jealous of the captains water and that he's worth ten of them. They'll all die, but at least the crew made a stand!

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> But the captain must try to keep his passengers or the line will go broke and his crew will all have no jobs!
> 
> Anyway, stopping pumping the ship won't help at all - it'll only hasten the end.


An end to luxury cruise liners sounds good to me. Then we can all find something more useful and constructive to do, passengers and crew alike. :thumb:


----------



## jimenato

I think the consensus here is that demonstrating in some way is good (Pesky's photo is awesome) but striking is not the way to do it. 

We had all that in the UK back in the 1970's. It did nobody any good really. 

Except, of course, that the non-striking population voted in Maggie with a massive majority. She then did what the majority wanted and very effectively destroyed the unions and old labour. Now if you count that as a good result, then perhaps there is some benefit to be had from striking...


----------



## Alcalaina

Hepa said:


> Talking about ships and crew.
> 
> Almost fifty years ago Great Britain flew the red duster on ships all over the world and the vast majority of the crew were U.K. or Irish citizens, and to sail had to be members of the National Union of Seamen.
> 
> Then in 1966, the said N.U.S. called an all out strike and when the ships returned to a U.K. port the seamen duly went on strike and the ships were laid up.
> 
> The British red duster still flies on the stern of merchant ships, but the crews however are from third world countries, the National Union of seamen no longer exists. Thousands of jobs for British Seamen were lost, never to be regained. All as a result of strike action.


You forgot to mention that the strike was about a reduction in their working hours from 56 to 40 hours a week, and was widely supported by members. The shipping lines didn't want to pay overtime rates.

The strike in Spain is only for one day, it's not intended to bring down the government or the employers or even the captain of the ship. It's just a way of venting frustration!


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> I think the consensus here is that demonstrating in some way is good (Pesky's photo is awesome) but striking is not the way to do it.
> 
> We had all that in the UK back in the 1970's. It did nobody any good really.
> 
> Except, of course, that the non-striking population voted in Maggie with a massive majority. She then did what the majority wanted and very effectively destroyed the unions and old labour. Now if you count that as a good result, then perhaps there is some benefit to be had from striking...


Of course, if it wasn't for unions, we wouldn't have had the equal pay act, maternity leave, a five-day week, paid holidays, effective safety precautions in factories ... None of these things would have been achieved without ultimate sanction of workers being able to withdraw their labour. Employers are not altruistic.

Found this nice example of a successful strike in Spain:

"In the region of Alcoy, Spain, workers struck in 1873 for the eight-hour day following much agitation from the anarchists. In 1919 in Barcelona, after a 44-day general strike with over 100,000 participants had effectively crippled the Catalan economy, the Government in Barcelona settled the strike by granting all the striking workers demands that included an eight-hour day, union recognition, and the rehiring of fired workers. *Spain was the first country to pass a national eight-hour day law*."


----------



## 90199

Alcalaina said:


> You forgot to mention that the strike was about a reduction in their working hours from 56 to 40 hours a week, and was widely supported by members. The shipping lines didn't want to pay overtime rates.
> 
> The strike in Spain is only for one day, it's not intended to bring down the government or the employers or even the captain of the ship. It's just a way of venting frustration!


On a ship you willingly worked seven days a week sometimes 10 hours a day, for seven months or longer. No days off. Overtime was always available and paid, food and accommodation were free. It was an enviable experience. The seaman's strike was not widely supported by all, and like me, many left the industry for good. The union was compulsory and always despised by the membership. who when the decisions were taken were usually on the other side of the planet.

The fact is the strike ruined the industry and prevented eager young people from having a career at sea.

Striking should only be used as a very last resort.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Of course, if it wasn't for unions, we wouldn't have had the equal pay act, maternity leave, a five-day week, paid holidays, effective safety precautions in factories ... None of these things would have been achieved without ultimate sanction of workers being able to withdraw their labour. Employers are not altruistic.


How do you know that it was union action that achieved those things? Maybe they were granted in spite of the unions. 

You might be guilty of The Fallacy of False Cause here



> Example
> Argument: After Billy was vaccinated he developed autism, therefore the vaccine caused his autism.
> 
> Problem: This does not provide any evidence that the vaccine was the cause. The characteristics of autism may generally become noticeable at the age just following the typical age children receive vaccinations.


Certainly in my experience working in industry in the 70's (ok, ok, anecdotal, I know!) union action was nearly always counter productive and had negative impact upon the workers



Alcalaina said:


> Found this nice example of a successful strike in Spain:
> 
> "In the region of Alcoy, Spain, workers struck in 1873 for the eight-hour day following much agitation from the anarchists. In 1919 in Barcelona, after a 44-day general strike with over 100,000 participants had effectively crippled the Catalan economy, the Government in Barcelona settled the strike by granting all the striking workers demands that included an eight-hour day, union recognition, and the rehiring of fired workers. *Spain was the first country to pass a national eight-hour day law*."


Sounds remarkably similar to blackmail to me. Where is the quote from Alcalaina?


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> How do you know that it was union action that achieved those things? Maybe they were granted in spite of the unions.
> 
> You might be guilty of The Fallacy of False Cause here
> 
> Certainly in my experience working in industry in the 70's (ok, ok, anecdotal, I know!) union action was nearly always counter productive and had negative impact upon the workers
> 
> Sounds remarkably similar to blackmail to me. Where is the quote from Alcalaina?


I've studied economic and social history and have been interested in this sort of thing for years. I was involved in NALGO campaigns protesting about the freezing of public sector pay in the 1980s (at a time when private sector pay was going up by 5% a year). This is not a fallacy of false cause. Nice try though.

There is a new film about how a strike by women at Ford plant at Dagenham led to the introduction of the Equal Pay Act:
Made In Dagenham: The Fight For Equal Pay - Yahoo! News UK

The quote is from Wikipedia: Eight-hour day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Surely you don't think an eight hour day is unreasonable, unless you are working for yourself? 

Anyway I've done my eight hours for today (translating an article about the attack on French troops by guerrillas from Alcala de los Gazules in 1810) so I'm signing off now. Buenas noches!


----------



## jimenato

Thinking about it, I would probably concede that over the last 150 years, unions (and I mean unions and not strikes) have largely benefited society as a whole. It's just that my experience of them has been almost wholly negative. It has a mob-handedness, blackmail feel to it that I don't like. There has to be a better way. Perhaps it's a 1970's thing.hwell:


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> Thinking about it, I would probably concede that over the last 150 years, unions (and I mean unions and not strikes) have largely benefited society as a whole. It's just that my experience of them has been almost wholly negative. It has a mob-handedness, blackmail feel to it that I don't like. There has to be a better way. Perhaps it's a 1970's thing.hwell:


Once upon a time unions were valuable and necessary to prevent and stop unscrupulous employers exploiting workers. But in these modern times they've outlived their usefulness and from what I can see its the unions that are replacing the unscrupulous employers now and are just making money out of their memberships. What a lot of people dont realise is that union leaders earn a lot of money and to justify their incomes (given to them by their members), they make a lot of noise and keep disputes and disruptions going! IMO, its a big con/protection racket!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Firstly perhaps I should say, I am not, as most of you probably know, driven by politics. I do not know all the ins and outs of the general strike called for on Sept 29th (and I have to say that few people here probably do).
I do think that a massive demonstration in Spain against current policies and possibly against the current govenment would be a great way to vent anger, frustration and make the world take more notice of Spain and the situation Spain finds itself in.
A strike is different.
I myself have participated in two strikes in Spain already. In 1992 there was a general strike and in 1993 there was a strike in my workplace which I was against, but took part in as is it was the action taken by the reps. The company closed down...
PS My husband will be on strike on Wednesday - I haven't decided yet.


----------



## gus-lopez

As Jo said ,Once upon a time unions were valuable and necessary to prevent and stop unscrupulous employers exploiting workers. What happened is that with the 'closed-shop' where everyone had to be member of the union the unscrupulous mambers realised that by becoming union officials they controlled what went on whilst being paid a 'wage' by the unions ,not having to do much work for which they were employed by being on 'union duties.' Most members rarely attended meetings where you only needed 4 or 5 members to vote through anything they wanted. They moved on from this , with the backing of the unions, into politics. 
My maternal grandfather was a registered waterman & lighterman & was employed to row barges up the Thames in the days before tugs! This is where the excellence at rowing that has won GB so many medals started from. 
He was at the forefront campaigning for union representation to stop the pitiful scenes of men standing on bricks outside the dock gates,to make themselves look taller , to obtain a days work. 
As with everything that starts with good, well-founded intentions, they are eventually hi-jacked by the sly, conniving scum that use them to further their own ends & using the membership to gain them, whilst not suffering any hardship themselves as they are employed by the union ! 
I had to join a union when I 1st started work as it was a closed -shop, it didn't take long before I asked the question " why am I going on strike when your getting paid ? " You soon learn how to fight !! I always maintain that if the union representatives want to call for strike action then they don't get paid either, & these days some of the salaries paid to ' union officials' are scandalous.


----------



## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> As Jo said ,Once upon a time unions were valuable and necessary to prevent and stop unscrupulous employers exploiting workers. What happened is that with the 'closed-shop' where everyone had to be member of the union the unscrupulous mambers realised that by becoming union officials they controlled what went on whilst being paid a 'wage' by the unions ,not having to do much work for which they were employed by being on 'union duties.' Most members rarely attended meetings where you only needed 4 or 5 members to vote through anything they wanted. They moved on from this , with the backing of the unions, into politics.
> My maternal grandfather was a registered waterman & lighterman & was employed to row barges up the Thames in the days before tugs! This is where the excellence at rowing that has won GB so many medals started from.
> He was at the forefront campaigning for union representation to stop the pitiful scenes of men standing on bricks outside the dock gates,to make themselves look taller , to obtain a days work.
> As with everything that starts with good, well-founded intentions, they are eventually hi-jacked by the sly, conniving scum that use them to further their own ends & using the membership to gain them, whilst not suffering any hardship themselves as they are employed by the union !
> I had to join a union when I 1st started work as it was a closed -shop, it didn't take long before I asked the question " why am I going on strike when your getting paid ? " You soon learn how to fight !! I always maintain that if the union representatives want to call for strike action then they don't get paid either, & these days some of the salaries paid to ' union officials' are scandalous.


Gus its worth noting that Spanish unions are not set up like UK unions. There are fundamental differences in funding, control and worker participation. I have a member of my spanish family who was a bus driver in Madrid but now works for the union. He gets better pay, works less hours, and eats and drinks well at the many meetings he attends. Sadly he makes little attempt to cover why he likes the job.

As you say the old style UK unions had their role up until the early 70s. Now the new style unions (and yes there are still bits of the bad old days lying around) have a different role and yes despite their value they can be manipulated.

But of course spain's working conditions for many are the equivalent of those in the UK in the 50s/60s. Sadly the good unions that the UK had then do not exist in Spain today. 

But we will see what happens Wednesday and how eye witness reports differ from the governments view. And what comfort Mr Bean can offer.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Spain's grandparents urged to strike!!

Spain's burnt out 'babysitter grandparents' urged to strike | World news | The Guardian

PS Is the 3 hour lunch break still on or is it a myth spread around by foreign journalists?
I know of, or people who work in, about 10 different companies here. None of them have more than an hour at lunch time. Two companies I know of have less!! (45 mins and 30mins and go home earlier - 17:00 or 17:30) In some companies the employees go home between 17:30 and 18:30 almost always. In others they have an hour lunch break, but they stay until 20:00, 21:00... or more! This is in multinational, medium and PYME's (small)
I think the long lunch break is in practice in some shops - and less and les as time goes by - or is that just in the Madrid area??


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> Gus its worth noting that Spanish unions are not set up like UK unions. There are fundamental differences in funding, control and worker participation. I have a member of my spanish family who was a bus driver in Madrid but now works for the union. He gets better pay, works less hours, and eats and drinks well at the many meetings he attends. Sadly he makes little attempt to cover why he likes the job.


Yes, it's strange, but in some of the places where I've worked the union reps are actually an object of hate to their colleagues!! They have great working conditions and all they do is stir up the workforce once and a while to make sure they are still needed. 
NB: Not my opinion, reporting what some Spanish people have said to me!


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Spain's grandparents urged to strike!!
> 
> Spain's burnt out 'babysitter grandparents' urged to strike | World news | The Guardian
> 
> PS Is the 3 hour lunch break still on or is it a myth spread around by foreign journalists?
> I know of, or people who work in, about 10 different companies here. None of them have more than an hour at lunch time. Two companies I know of have less!! (45 mins and 30mins and go home earlier - 17:00 or 17:30) In some companies the employees go home between 17:30 and 18:30 almost always. In others they have an hour lunch break, but they stay until 20:00, 21:00... or more! This is in multinational, medium and PYME's (small)
> I think the long lunch break is in practice in some shops - and less and les as time goes by - or is that just in the Madrid area??


I don't know anyone who has a long break either - except in the shops as you say, and in the primary schools - where you see the teachers walk out of the building at 12.30 & back in at 3pm


----------



## nigele2

xabiachica said:


> I don't know anyone who has a long break either - except in the shops as you say, and in the primary schools - where you see the teachers walk out of the building at 12.30 & back in at 3pm


No one in my family can afford a 3 hour break - except those on the paro of course  

Back in the 60s my MIL (a housewife) used to have siesta with the kids in Seville but that was just to escape the heat. Her husband was Guardia Civil and even he didn't get it; although there were benefits of being in uniform  Sadly one of them was not the pay which is why he moved the family to Madrid on a vespa scooter with side car - 4 people and all their belongings. He then worked for Iberia in security. No siesta there either. 

My wife just smiles when brits mention siestas


----------



## gus-lopez

No ,it still exists down here , anything from 1pm 'till 5 or 5,30pm. Not just shops but offices, driving schools, insurance brokers, all gestorias, most of the factories & material suppliers.


----------



## jojo

The siesta was a sensible way of keeping out of the midday heat and in years gone by people did slow down or close up during that period. But its probably not as necessary now we have aircon and modern living!! And I'm not sure its always used as a sleep time, just a time to slow down and stay indoors!?

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Oh no nigele2, the siesta is alive & well down here !! My wife's been known to have one in the morning.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS Is the 3 hour lunch break still on or is it a myth spread around by foreign journalists?
> I know of, or people who work in, about 10 different companies here. None of them have more than an hour at lunch time. Two companies I know of have less!! (45 mins and 30mins and go home earlier - 17:00 or 17:30) In some companies the employees go home between 17:30 and 18:30 almost always. In others they have an hour lunch break, but they stay until 20:00, 21:00... or more! This is in multinational, medium and PYME's (small)
> I think the long lunch break is in practice in some shops - and less and les as time goes by - or is that just in the Madrid area??


The three hour break is standard across Andalucia. Many shops and offices don´t have air conditioning and in summer it is just too hot to work! But they don´t work shorter hours, it´s just that they day is organised differently.


----------



## baldilocks

Around here, it is like a graveyard between 2 and 5. The school packs up for the day at 2.30.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Well, my question was about the break, not the siesta - different things!
I think very, very, very few people actually use the 3 hour break to sleep in - 20 mins, half an hour maybe. And, as I said, round here not many people get that long afternoon break anyway.
When I first came to Madrid a lot of people used this time to go to the gym, have their English classes etc
Sorry
:focus:


----------



## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> Oh no nigele2, the siesta is alive & well down here !! My wife's been known to have one in the morning.




Gus stop it, I'm trying to work.


----------



## jojo

Does anyone know if the trains will be running, cos my two catch the train to school and they insist that they're not going to be???? 

Jo xxx


----------



## country boy

They are running a *very *restricted service, so basically....No!


----------



## jojo

country boy said:


> They are running a *very *restricted service, so basically....No!


Call me blonde, but where does it say its not going to???

Jo xx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Call me blonde, but where does it say its not going to???
> 
> Jo xx


I don't know if I'd take the chance


why not ask at the station tomorrow?


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Call me blonde, but where does it say its not going to???
> 
> Jo xx


They reckon 25% of local trains will be running:

Informativos Telecinco.com - El 25 por ciento de los trenes de cercanas y el 20 por ciento de los AVE circularn el 29-S


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> I don't know if I'd take the chance
> 
> 
> why not ask at the station tomorrow?


Its an unmanned station and the kids are too shy to ask the little porter chap! I'll keep asking around, but it doesnt look good, even if theres a train running there, I'd wonder if they'd get back and of course I'll be at work in El Grande, which is 50 mins from Benamadena. 

hhhmmmm........ an unauthorised day off!???

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Its an unmanned station and the kids are too shy to ask the little porter chap! I'll keep asking around, but it doesnt look good, even if theres a train running there, I'd wonder if they'd get back and of course I'll be at work in El Grande, which is 50 mins from Benamadena.
> 
> hhhmmmm........ an unauthorised day off!???
> 
> Jo xxx


Grab a banner and call it solidarity!


----------



## country boy

The Zap Gov. have agreed with the unions that they will operate a 20% service. If you go to the cercanias site for instance and type in a couple of destinations for our local services you will see how for trips there will be on the 29th compared to other dates. I guess you are supposed to know from what has been said on the news.

tp://www.renfe.com/viajeros/cercanias/malaga/index.html


----------



## xicoalc

I am suposed to be going into Hospital on wednesday for an operation (only a day job thankfully), better check with them, although its an insurance job so I guess private sector wont be affected (espero!). 

I KNOW with my luck they will be running on skeleton staff and I will have a cleaner or handyman improvising as the anethatist. :noidea: - mark my words!!!

On another note (totally off subject), I went for a pre-op apopintment last week and guess who were making a delivery (a large delivery) - Cruzcampo.....i kid you not! Now should I be worried that my op is scheduled for immediately after the surgeons lunch break?:help:


----------



## baldilocks

steve_in_spain said:


> I am suposed to be going into Hospital on wednesday for an operation (only a day job thankfully), better check with them, although its an insurance job so I guess private sector wont be affected (espero!).
> 
> I KNOW with my luck they will be running on skeleton staff and I will have a cleaner or handyman improvising as the anethatist. :noidea: - mark my words!!!
> 
> On another note (totally off subject), I went for a pre-op apopintment last week and guess who were making a delivery (a large delivery) - Cruzcampo.....i kid you not! Now should I be worried that my op is scheduled for immediately after the surgeons lunch break?:help:


They use Cruzcampo for transfusions for the British bar-proppers


----------



## Pesky Wesky

steve_in_spain said:


> On another note (totally off subject), I went for a pre-op apopintment last week and guess who were making a delivery (a large delivery) - Cruzcampo.....i kid you not! Now should I be worried that my op is scheduled for immediately after the surgeons lunch break?:help:


!!


----------



## xicoalc

baldilocks said:


> They use Cruzcampo for transfusions for the British bar-proppers


PMSL - why didn't i think of that! OF COURSE! Got to make sure there's some blood in their alcohol stream! Terrible the brits... wouldn't catch me in the state that you see them staggering around in! Now... wheres the vino! Beunos Noches one and all!


----------



## gerrit

Who organises the strike? We at work got a letter from the labour/workers union stating that we were all welcome to join the strike if we wish to. Since it started with saying how bad neo-liberalism was, I suppose it's the socialist parties organising the strike?


----------



## Alcalaina

gerrit said:


> Who organises the strike? We at work got a letter from the labour/workers union stating that we were all welcome to join the strike if we wish to. Since it started with saying how bad neo-liberalism was, I suppose it's the socialist parties organising the strike?



The Izquierda Unida and the unions are organising it.
Materiales "Huelga General 29-S" | IZQUIERDA UNIDA.

The PSOE is against it at a national level, obviously, because they are the ones making the cuts. Though at local level lots of PSOE ayuntamientos are unofficially in favour.


----------



## xabiaxica

dd2 has been told by her teacher that she has to go in cos he's working

however if the school bus isn't running I can't get her there...................


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Over the weekend and today at work I was asking people about the strike. No one I talked to was going to go on strike. Here are the reasons given - in no particular order.
- A strike doesn't contribute anything to the situation. It just means that the country will lose a day's work and a considerable amount of money
- The people don't feel they have been given an alternative. They might not want Zappie as their president, but they don't want Rajoy either and unfortunately there isn't any other party in the running for presidency. There's no charismatic leader.
- Each worker will lose a considerable amount of money, not just a day's wages, but all the other components that have to be factored in.
- The time is not right, if it had been sooner perhaps, but people feel that the unions supported Zappie's decisions at the beginning, but then decided to strike and now is too late
- There is no group feeling. There are too many groups thinking about their different gripes and no leader has been able to bond them together.

Of course many people may be forced to "not work" because of the transport workers. 
We'll just have to see what happens on Wednesday


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Over the weekend and today at work I was asking people about the strike. No one I talked to was going to go on strike. Here are the reasons given - in no particular order.
> - A strike doesn't contribute anything to the situation. It just means that the country will lose a day's work and a considerable amount of money
> - The people don't feel they have been given an alternative. They might not want Zappie as their president, but they don't want Rajoy either and unfortunately there isn't any other party in the running for presidency. There's no charismatic leader.
> - Each worker will lose a considerable amount of money, not just a day's wages, but all the other components that have to be factored in.
> - The time is not right, if it had been sooner perhaps, but people feel that the unions supported Zappie's decisions at the beginning, but then decided to strike and now is too late
> - There is no group feeling. There are too many groups thinking about their different gripes and no leader has been able to bond them together.
> 
> Of course many people may be forced to "not work" because of the transport workers.
> We'll just have to see what happens on Wednesday


Interesting. Similar feelings round my neck of the woods - the apolitical aren´t motivated, and the others are just frustrated.


----------



## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> Interesting. Similar feelings round my neck of the woods - the apolitical aren´t motivated, and the others are just frustrated.


Up here as well. I've been told that this will be the most boring day of the year (no bars, no nada) but I'm having a hard time believing it!


----------



## eloiseb

Last time, most of the schools etc (including my kids state school) stayed open here, but will wait and see. At this time of year, when only half-days anyway, less of an issue than when full days that need rearranging!


----------



## Tallulah

eloiseb said:


> Last time, most of the schools etc (including my kids state school) stayed open here, but will wait and see. At this time of year, when only half-days anyway, less of an issue than when full days that need rearranging!



Spoke to the head and our (state) school is definitely open & teaching.....my three are rather disappointed.


----------



## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> Spoke to the head and our (state) school is definitely open & teaching.....my three are rather disappointed.


my younger one has to go in but the elder one doesn't


tomorrow morning's going to be fun


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> my younger one has to go in but the elder one doesn't
> 
> 
> tomorrow morning's going to be fun


None of my daughter's teachers are going on strike. Bitter disappointment on her part! However, there was a teacher - parent meeting scheduled ! They had the foresight to cancel it though.
Actually the only person that I know who's going on strike is my husband!! He argues that Felipe Gonzalo was made to change his mind through a strike and Aznar too. Also that the world's economists have f***d up and they need to be told that they have.


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Also that the world's economists have f***d up and they need to be told that they have.


I disagree, it is nothing much to do with the world's economists - it is all down to US banks and Savings/Loan companies who would lend huge mortgages to people who could not afford the repayments, but the mortgages they were dishing out did not have to be repaid, you didn't have to pay much off the interest either with the consequence that all the borrowers ended up with having a debt several times larger than the one they started with. With lots of people buying houses on these ridiculous loans, there was a building boom until the market was super-saturated with unsold homes meaning that the re-sales which were supposed to have greatly increased in value to cover the unpaid mortgage debt actually started decreasing in value and then the panic set in with bankers pulling out as fast as they could, repossessing and throwing even more unsaleable houses onto the market. 

Result - Economic Melt Down

Governments around the world then did their best to try to restore some sort of order to the economic situation with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately politicians will always talk up the financial crisis they inherited from their predecessors (as in the case of the Lib-Con coalition) when, in fact, the actual figures for the last quarter of the Lab government's tenure showed a very good control of the economic situation and the UK well on the way out of the recession. However the Cameron/Clegg recipe for cooking the books looks to make matters a whole lot worse. 

I notice that when they talk about reducing pensions, it is our OAP they are talking about not their own!


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I disagree, it is nothing much to do with the world's economists - it is all down to US banks and Savings/Loan companies who would lend huge mortgages to people who could not afford the repayments, but the mortgages they were dishing out did not have to be repaid, you didn't have to pay much off the interest either with the consequence that all the borrowers ended up with having a debt several times larger than the one they started with. With lots of people buying houses on these ridiculous loans, there was a building boom until the market was super-saturated with unsold homes meaning that the re-sales which were supposed to have greatly increased in value to cover the unpaid mortgage debt actually started decreasing in value and then the panic set in with bankers pulling out as fast as they could, repossessing and throwing even more unsaleable houses onto the market.
> 
> Result - Economic Melt Down
> 
> Governments around the world then did their best to try to restore some sort of order to the economic situation with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately politicians will always talk up the financial crisis they inherited from their predecessors (as in the case of the Lib-Con coalition) when, in fact, the actual figures for the last quarter of the Lab government's tenure showed a very good control of the economic situation and the UK well on the way out of the recession. However the Cameron/Clegg recipe for cooking the books looks to make matters a whole lot worse.
> 
> I notice that when they talk about reducing pensions, it is our OAP they are talking about not their own!


All of the above is true. I would add only that some mainly American economists are to blame in that they have for the past couple of decades been suckered into believing in the neo-conservative free-market ideologies of Hayek, Friedman et al.
Plus the fact that economics is not a science. It has no laws, only patterns.
These right-wing ideologues have imposed their philosophies on institutions such as the IMF and the World Bank and have caused immeasurable suffering and misery through their imposition of Structural Adjustment Programmes -deregulation, privatisation, cuts in public services -on developing countries.


----------



## gerrit

For those who worry about the schools... As far as I know striking is also the right of the pupils/students. Not 100% sure but in Belgium it was legal, I would assume it would be similar in other EU jurisdictions?

Back in last year of secondary school there was outrage over a certain case and all students were saying they would love a strike. That was between the hours ... When dialogue with the teacher didn't really resolve the situation I stood up and called for a strike. All the others, who in fact would love to strike, suddenly didn't dare to out that desire while the teacher was there... 

Tomorrow none of my colleagues is striking as far as I know. I probably won't be neither but only because I have the luck of having a very good and friendly relationship with my superior and majority of colleagues and I hate to let them down. I support those striking though and am looking around to join a political organisation (not necessarily a party) as I feel like doing something idealistic.


----------



## jojo

gerrit said:


> Tomorrow none of my colleagues is striking as far as I know. I probably won't be neither but only because I have the luck of having a very good and friendly relationship with my superior and majority of colleagues and I hate to let them down. I support those striking though and am looking around to join a political organisation (not necessarily a party) as I feel like doing something idealistic.


 IMO thats how everyone should feel about striking, dont do it because you're letting other people down, whether you have a good and friendly relationship or not, shouldnt come into the equasion!! I spoke to a spanish chap today who was going to work tomorrow, but was too frightened to work in his own town for fear of repercussions - how awful is that?????? Mob rule! I cannot understand why strikers feel they have the right to harrass those who dont want to strike, its still a democracy! 

Jo xxx


----------



## gerrit

Unfortunately it is yeah. I do support strikes. Because sometimes that's the ONLY way people will listen and debate can be started on political level. Of course the reason for a strike should be justified, but when for example labour unions are robbed of their power and all power moves to the CEOs and board members, then basically it is justified to out disapproval with that. It is sadly enough the truth that a strike is sometimes the only way to make your voice heard. I'd be striking if I didn't have that good relationship with my boss ; he's really a nice guy and we get along well as friends. But if people do decide to strike, I can't blame them really. I mean, don't forget this is often a last resort after normal dialogue between labour unions and other parties involved failed.

I do think however, when a strike is made public, every public service should provide minimum functionality. The day for example all trains and busses are on collective strike, then it's going too far because people not involved in the whole debate are victims just as well. But as far as I know here in Catalunya public transport works (although with less frequent metro and trains) and even most banks and shops will open for at least some part of the day.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> IMO thats how everyone should feel about striking, dont do it because you're letting other people down, whether you have a good and friendly relationship or not, shouldnt come into the equasion!! I spoke to a spanish chap today who was going to work tomorrow, but was too frightened to work in his own town for fear of repercussions - how awful is that?????? Mob rule! I cannot understand why strikers feel they have the right to harrass those who dont want to strike, its still a democracy!
> 
> Jo xxx


Intimidation is not the norm, you know. Personally I doubt most of the tales you hear about bullying tactics. Most of the people who claim they are intimidated are afraid of losing money ...but if the strike is about pay, they are only too happy to take any wage increase their striking colleagues may win as a result of their action.
The relationship with your employer is neither here nor there in this instance as the strike is not about a grievance with a particular employer but is intended to make a political point. I personally would not support this strike as I can't see what it will achieve. The CGT etc have not proposed a deficit reduction plan to counter that of the Government, as far as I'm aware. So what point in striking?
But let's be clear...the right to withdraw your labour is a fundamental human right.
Most strikers do not harass those who don't wish to strike, despite what The Daily Maul might pretend.
I last went on strike in 1980-something and I must say I had nothing but contempt for the Union colleague who did not join in but happily accepted the substantial salary increase and improvement in working conditions we who did strike secured for her. She was not 'harassed' but few of her colleagues had any respect for her. She could easily have donated the extra salary gained to a charity of her choice but her principles were clearly not as strong as those of us who lost money to benefit her as well as ourselves.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

eloiseb said:


> Last time, most of the schools etc (including my kids state school) stayed open here, but will wait and see. At this time of year, when only half-days anyway, less of an issue than when full days that need rearranging!


eloiseb and any one else with children reading this thread - they _*have to*_ stay open. What they don't have to do is teach. All schools have to offer "servicios minimos" whatever that is in English. So, all children can go to school (and should, actually), and will be looked after, but they may or may not be given class depending if the teacher is on strike or not.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Intimidation is not the norm, you know. Personally I doubt most of the tales you hear about bullying tactics. Most of the people who claim they are intimidated are afraid of losing money ...but if the strike is about pay, they are only too happy to take any wage increase their striking colleagues may win as a result of their action.
> The relationship with your employer is neither here nor there in this instance as the strike is not about a grievance with a particular employer but is intended to make a political point. I personally would not support this strike as I can't see what it will achieve. The CGT etc have not proposed a deficit reduction plan to counter that of the Government, as far as I'm aware. So what point in striking?
> But let's be clear...the right to withdraw your labour is a fundamental human right.
> Most strikers do not harass those who don't wish to strike, despite what The Daily Maul might pretend.
> I last went on strike in 1980-something and I must say I had nothing but contempt for the Union colleague who did not join in but happily accepted the substantial salary increase and improvement in working conditions we who did strike secured for her. She was not 'harassed' but few of her colleagues had any respect for her. She could easily have donated the extra salary gained to a charity of her choice but her principles were clearly not as strong as those of us who lost money to benefit her as well as ourselves.



Its not the gains or not that bother me about striking, its the way that union bosses feather their own nests. They become a far worse threat to the working public than those they are "fighting" They remind me of spoilt children having a tantrum and making their little friends do the dirty work to get their own way for them, cos ultimately its the people who are putting their necks on the line. It just seems like manipulation and mob rule !! 

Governments were voted in to do a job, to then get a few union bosses inciting the electorate into fighting what has been voted in democratically doesnt make any sense!

Jo xxx


----------



## gerrit

The members of parliament were democratically elected (I won't start about my own opinion about that - it's irrelevant to this topic anyway), not every decision they take is the "will of the people". 

Also, don't forget that some labour unions are governed by regular workers who were elected by the union members. So in many cases the union leaders will join in rather than letting others do the dirty work for them. Restricting the power of labour unions and giving all power to the employer board is a very dangerous precedent. I'm happy that striking is a right as it is.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

A couple of things...

The main demonstration in Madrid tomorrow, in support of the strike, starts at 18:30. After everyone's got home from work???? 

Celestino Corbacho, Minister of work and Ignacio Fernández Toxo, Union leader were interviewed separately on the SER radio. 

Toxo said the reasons for calling the strike were (loosely translated)
the unemployment,
that we shouldn't resign ourselves to believing that there's only one way of doing things 
We can't come out of the recession with less rights than when it started
We can't come out of the recession with less quality in the social protection system

Corbacho said the reasons that someone should not go on strike were
The new laws were essential and motivated by the economic crisis
The government is going to generate more jobs
Jobs will be more stable, longer lasting and be of a higher quality

I think there will be pickets tomorrow, but what kind??

Looks like the servicios minimos for transport will be different in each area, but some of the agreements are going to make it almost impossible for people to get to their place of work.


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> A couple of things...
> 
> The main demonstration in Madrid tomorrow, in support of the strike, starts at 18:30. After everyone's got home from work????


I had just said something to my suegra about where the demonstrations would be tomorrow _morning._ She laughed and her comment was "How long have you been living here? Wake up early to strike? Where do you think we are!?" 


Did Toxo happen to explain the reason why they've waited so long to have this strike, and why it's occurring after the legislation has passed? I'd be surprised if SER asked those questions, but I'd be really interested to know.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> I had just said something to my suegra about where the demonstrations would be tomorrow _morning._ She laughed and her comment was "How long have you been living here? Wake up early to strike? Where do you think we are!?"
> 
> 
> Did Toxo happen to explain the reason why they've waited so long to have this strike, and why it's occurring after the legislation has passed? I'd be surprised if SER asked those questions, but I'd be really interested to know.


Halydia - sometimes I _*still*_ forget where I am, after all this time!!

In what I saw of the interviews Toxo didn't make any reference to the point that you're making, but it was very summarised. Here's the link
Video: Celestino Corbacho e Ignacio Fernández Toxo exponen su postura ante la huelga general en CADENASER.com

PS I heard there's a great exhibition on at the Guggi now, Dutch masters. Have you been? Do you know how long it's on for?


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Halydia - sometimes I _*still*_ forget where I am, after all this time!!
> 
> In what I saw of the interviews Toxo didn't make any reference to the point that you're making, but it was very summarised. Here's the link
> Video: Celestino Corbacho e Ignacio Fernández Toxo exponen su postura ante la huelga general en CADENASER.com
> 
> PS I heard there's a great exhibition on at the Guggi now, Dutch masters. Have you been? Do you know how long it's on for?


Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff. We're headed to INEM tomorrow to see if my OH can dar de baja en el paro (he got "the call" today! Hurray!) which could be fun. Pre-strike has been very calm here. We'll see what happens tomorrow evening.

Haven't been to the Guggi recently. I was going to go to the Museum of Fine Arts tomorrow since it's free each Wednesday and this is my last Wednesday off, but the metro is on 30% service. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the Guggenheim - it's a fascinating architectural piece, but I haven't really seen any exhibitions that interested me. Their current exhibitions can be seen here: Exhibitions


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> eloiseb and any one else with children reading this thread - they _*have to*_ stay open. What they don't have to do is teach. All schools have to offer "servicios minimos" whatever that is in English. So, all children can go to school (and should, actually), and will be looked after, but they may or may not be given class depending if the teacher is on strike or not.


yes, they do have to stay open & my younger dd is going in - I know she won't be taught anything but her class teacher is expecting his class to go in

he'll be supervising kids from other classes whose teachers are striking, so as I said, there'll be no teaching

we were told the school buses are running, but then on the local radio last night it was reported that they're not

so she's going to the bus stop to see if it comes - if not , a neighbour has offered to take her in & pick her up again at 1pm (I can't drive & OH is away)

I'd be happy to let her stay home if the bus isn't running - but her teacher has said that if they stay off he wants a doc's cert. & she's worried about repercussions

I might have to have words with him - that to me smacks of bullying tactics


----------



## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff. We're headed to INEM tomorrow to see if my OH can dar de baja en el paro (he got "the call" today! Hurray!) which could be fun. Pre-strike has been very calm here. We'll see what happens tomorrow evening.
> 
> Haven't been to the Guggi recently. I was going to go to the Museum of Fine Arts tomorrow since it's free each Wednesday and this is my last Wednesday off, but the metro is on 30% service. I can't say I'm a huge fan of the Guggenheim - it's a fascinating architectural piece, but I haven't really seen any exhibitions that interested me. Their current exhibitions can be seen here: Exhibitions


Hahaha, that's funny - OH is going to INEM this morning to see if he can sign ON the paro 'cos he only got a part time position this year! I'm wondering if there's going to be anybody there. He'd got an appointment, but... Your partner was paid until mid September, wasn't he???

I'm not a fan of the Guggi either (only use the abbreviation 'cos i don't know how to spell it) I've only been a couple of times and can't find the "wow" factor" of the architecture inside. Outside I only like the view on the other side of the river. Close up it's a bit of a jumble. I seem to be in the complete minority though. I can't deny that the museum totally changed Bilbao, for the better, though.

The museum of Fine Arts, if it's the one I'm thinking of in the park, is well worth a visit and the temporary exhibitions are great. We go nearly every time we're in Bilbao


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Its not the gains or not that bother me about striking, its the way that union bosses feather their own nests. They become a far worse threat to the working public than those they are "fighting" They remind me of spoilt children having a tantrum and making their little friends do the dirty work to get their own way for them, cos ultimately its the people who are putting their necks on the line. It just seems like manipulation and mob rule !!
> 
> Governments were voted in to do a job, to then get a few union bosses inciting the electorate into fighting what has been voted in democratically doesnt make any sense!
> 
> Jo xxx


By feathering their own nests, you mean they receive above-average salaries? Well, why not? Union bosses (who are elected by their members) are running what can be compared to enormous companies. They have huge responsibilities. Their members' subscriptions pay their salaries so it's up to them to complain if they object to what they get. I have a say in what my Union leader receives but no say in what the boss of my partly state-owned bank receives.
As for the working public....one in three members of the working public belongs to a union of some kind. If the proposed cuts hit hard there will be more people joining unions.
I don't understand what you mean by 'manipulation' and 'mob rule'. Strikes can only take place after a ballot of all members and are usually called for serious matters. Strikes cost unions money, you know. They may be called for reasons you or I may disagree with but we live in a democracy and working people are entitled by law to join unions to protect their interests.
I think we tend to forget sometimes that we live in a pluralist society where we all have the right to express our views regardless of which Government is in power. Just because we've had an election doesn't mean we've lost the right to protest against things we consider unjust.


----------



## gus-lopez

The main demonstration in Madrid tomorrow, in support of the strike, starts at 18:30. After everyone's got home from work???? :clap2: :clap2:


----------



## baldilocks

jojo said:


> Its not the gains or not that bother me about striking, its the way that union bosses feather their own nests. They become a far worse threat to the working public than those they are "fighting" They remind me of spoilt children having a tantrum and making their little friends do the dirty work to get their own way for them, cos ultimately its the people who are putting their necks on the line. It just seems like manipulation and mob rule !!
> 
> Governments were voted in to do a job, to then get a few union bosses inciting the electorate into fighting what has been voted in democratically doesnt make any sense!
> 
> Jo xxx


I quite agree Jo. My last encounter with a union was when I worked for a short while on a contract for Essex County Council. This was to drive a mini bus on a remote peninsula taking the elderly and others from the small villages to link in with the main bus service and the trains. For administrative reasons we were employed by Arriva and were required to join the union. 

The local reps used to attend the wage negotiations on our behalf (there were only 12 of us versus 250 of the town-bus drivers). The *******s would agree 4% increases for the townies (which included themselves) and a 1.25% increase for us. On one occasion they voluntarily gave up an extra payment we used to get for working on Saturdays in order to get an extra 2% on the basic rate - BUT NOTE they gave up OUR Saturday premium as well as their own to get an extra 2% on THEIR basic rate not on ours!!!

Unions should be banned until the leaders and shop stewards are deprived of all their extra privileges and made to suffer with the rest. You can bet your life that they will be working AND getting paid for today while their members who may be standing next to them on a picket line will be getting nothing!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gerrit said:


> For those who worry about the schools... As far as I know striking is also the right of the pupils/students. Not 100% sure but in Belgium it was legal, I would assume it would be similar in other EU jurisdictions?


Actually no, the students don't have the right to strike in this strike 'cos it's a workers strike and they aren't workers, they're minors.
They _*do*_ have the right to strike from the age of 14 I think it is, when they are called to strike by their representatives.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I quite agree Jo. My last encounter with a union was when I worked for a short while on a contract for Essex County Council. This was to drive a mini bus on a remote peninsula taking the elderly and others from the small villages to link in with the main bus service and the trains. For administrative reasons we were employed by Arriva and were required to join the union.
> 
> The local reps used to attend the wage negotiations on our behalf (there were only 12 of us versus 250 of the town-bus drivers). The *******s would agree 4% increases for the townies (which included themselves) and a 1.25% increase for us. On one occasion they voluntarily gave up an extra payment we used to get for working on Saturdays in order to get an extra 2% on the basic rate - BUT NOTE they gave up OUR Saturday premium as well as their own to get an extra 2% on THEIR basic rate not on ours!!!
> 
> . You can bet your life that they will be working AND getting paid for today while their members who may be standing next to them on a picket line will be getting nothing!


 You use one anecdote to make your point. I could give you one hundred anecdotes to show how unions have achieved real benefits for their members.
What do you mean by 'Unions should be banned until the leaders and shop stewards are deprived of all their extra privileges and made to suffer with the rest'?
What 'extra privileges'? Do you mean the packages that normally go with top jobs? Members on picket lines may well be receiving strike pay from their unions for all you know. 
As for banning unions....when did you stop believing in a free society? I freely took the decision to join a union, it's my democratic right and only dictatorships deprive people of that right. No unions in Communist Russia or Nazi Germany....
What concerns me is that most people are unaware of what unions actually do. They are not just machines for organising strikes, you know. Unions take part in all kinds of constructive activities relarting to policy issues across the board in their particular sector..
I recommend that you study the role of Trades Unions in Scandinavia and particularly Germany, where enterprises with more than fifteen employees are required by law to have a Union representative on the board. We could learn from their successful economies.
All this talk of 'banning' this that and the other seems to me to be harmless hot air on the surface and most sensible people treat it like that. But it is actually profoundly undemocratic in principle and as I said we tend to forget that we live in a democracy and pluralism is an essential part of a free society.
The Union negotiators you tell us about didn't do a very good job...according to what you tell us. I wasn't there and don't know the details so I can't comment. I can only reflect that it's not really a good principle to condemn millions of trades unionists for what a few union officials in Essex did donkeys years ago


----------



## gerrit

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually no, the students don't have the right to strike in this strike 'cos it's a workers strike and they aren't workers, they're minors.
> They _*do*_ have the right to strike from the age of 14 I think it is, when they are called to strike by their representatives.


I see. Back in my school days I was told students can strike whenever they wish, but obviously on own responsability for risking sanctions such as bad grades. Hence why it'd only be a good idea to strike if the entire group of students joins in, which in practise will rarely happen.

Students striking wasn't the same as staying home anyways, we were told a strike would just include coming to school but refusing any tests or participation in the lessons. Like sitting at your desk doing nothing. Not a good idea at all unless the whole class unites for a strike, if one or a few persons do it on their own it will likely be classified as just a test score of 0/10...

In the papers a lot of people condemn the strike. That's scary really. Do people wish to become slaves of their employers who happely surrender their rights and kneel for every command?! Disbanding labour unions (as some people asked for in the press) is like taking a leap back in time 100 years ...


----------



## mrypg9

And just a thought.....did the UK electorate really vote for a Government that would make deep cuts in public spending and put an extra 100000 workers on the dole by their own admission? 
The combined vote of Labour and the Lib Dems was greater than that of the Conservatives in the recent UK election. Both Parties were against the kind of cuts the Coalition is now proposing. The Lib Dems (who have given a bad name to prostitution) have performed a 360 degree turn and are now implementing policies they campaigned against.
So how can people who strike against the cuts be acting 'undemocratically'? It's the Government which is ignoring the expressed will of the people at the ballot box. Recent surveys show a majority against cuts of the severity mooted. So unions are reflecting the will of the public, it seems.
Incidentally.....figures for April - June show encouraging growth in the UK economy. 
So Gordon's policies weren't that bad after all, then
Pity, as this shower of a Government seems hell-bent on plunging us into a double -dip recession just as it seems will be the case in Ireland where similar deep cuts were made and the economy is struggling once more.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gerrit said:


> I see. Back in my school days I was told students can strike whenever they wish, but obviously on own responsability for risking sanctions such as bad grades. Hence why it'd only be a good idea to strike if the entire group of students joins in, which in practise will rarely happen.


Well,you know what Spain is like Gerrit. It's all got to be official and stamped and photocopied in triplicate, which I actually think is probably just as well in this area. The school drop out rate is bad enough as it is without giving students, who are very young really to have formed political opinions, the opportunity to sit at their desks hour after hour doing nothing in the name of a strike!!!


----------



## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I see. Back in my school days I was told students can strike whenever they wish, but obviously on own responsability for risking sanctions such as bad grades. Hence why it'd only be a good idea to strike if the entire group of students joins in, which in practise will rarely happen.
> 
> Students striking wasn't the same as staying home anyways, we were told a strike would just include coming to school but refusing any tests or participation in the lessons. Like sitting at your desk doing nothing. Not a good idea at all unless the whole class unites for a strike, if one or a few persons do it on their own it will likely be classified as just a test score of 0/10...
> 
> In the papers a lot of people condemn the strike. That's scary really. Do people wish to become slaves of their employers who happely surrender their rights and kneel for every command?! Disbanding labour unions (as some people asked for in the press) is like taking a leap back in time 100 years ...


Yes, as I said all this talk of banning this that and the other is worrying - or would be if this wasn't just a chat forum where members sound off against all kinds of things. so it's just a harmless expression of a superficial and probably not deeply-held opinion.
We British in particular often fail to recognise that in spite of our manifest shortcomings we are a functioning pluralist democracy where we are not slaves of an elected Government, where we have the right to organise in political parties and trades unions, the right to demonstrate peacefully, the right to withdraw our labour and the right to legitimately qualified freedom of speech. We do not allow the majority to ride roughshod over minorities and we prize our independence of thought and action.
I will never return to live in England because I dislike the kind of ignorant, anti-social, uncultured society we have in so many respects become but I am immensely proud of being British because in spite of what I hope is our temporary slide into pandering to the lowest common denominator we have a proud and much admired tradition of individual rights and freedom few other countries have enjoyed for so long.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well,you know what Spain is like Gerrit. It's all got to be official and stamped and photocopied in triplicate, which I actually think is probably just as well in this area. The school drop out rate is bad enough as it is without giving students, who are very young really to have formed political opinions, the opportunity to sit at their desks hour after hour doing nothing in the name of a strike!!!


Agreed. Few young people (and people in general) have thought deeply about their political opinions. They have had no experience on which to base or against which to test them.
When I was a student I was hard-left. Experience and maturity disabused me of these views and I've made the traditional journey rightwards although now I tend not to have an ideology but judge policies on their objective merits.
One of the imo daftest things the last UK Government did was to institute a system of 'student voice' in schools. This meant that pupils as young as five were given a say in the appointment of teachers (!) and the running of the school.
My union, NASUWT,has campaigned vociferously against this horrendous folly and hopefully it will now be erased from the statute book.

Incidentally, with reference to my earlier post, this is from The Daily Mail (so it must be true)

_*Output expanded by 1.2 per cent in the second quarter of the year, the fastest rate of growth for nine years, according to the Office for National Statistics*_

And the present Government had nothing to do with that....these figures are for April, May and June. They are a legacy of the policies of the much-maligned Brown /Darling era.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually no, the students don't have the right to strike in this strike 'cos it's a workers strike and they aren't workers, they're minors.
> They _*do*_ have the right to strike from the age of 14 I think it is, when they are called to strike by their representatives.


yes, that's how I understood it


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha, that's funny - OH is going to INEM this morning to see if he can sign ON the paro 'cos he only got a part time position this year! I'm wondering if there's going to be anybody there. He'd got an appointment, but... Your partner was paid until mid September, wasn't he???
> 
> I'm not a fan of the Guggi either (only use the abbreviation 'cos i don't know how to spell it) I've only been a couple of times and can't find the "wow" factor" of the architecture inside. Outside I only like the view on the other side of the river. Close up it's a bit of a jumble. I seem to be in the complete minority though. I can't deny that the museum totally changed Bilbao, for the better, though.
> 
> The museum of Fine Arts, if it's the one I'm thinking of in the park, is well worth a visit and the temporary exhibitions are great. We go nearly every time we're in Bilbao


Oh frustrating. Hope he was able to get that done! Did he just get called as well? The government seems to be pulling all sorts of funny business this year to save a few euros on teachers. I see the best interests of students are at mind... 

I don't know Bilbao pre-Guggenheim, but I've got to admit I dread having visitors because the one and only (positive) thing our American minds seem to associate with Bilbao is the museum. So, anytime anyone visits, I know it means a trip there. 

And you're correct, it's the museum in the park. I've been dying to go!



:focus: For those who read Spanish, and are interested: 
In the Basque Country, things are calmer today than in the rest of Spain: Ausencia de incidentes en Euskadi y un seguimiento menor que en el resto de España. El Correo

Also, interestingly, things are far different just to the west in Cantabria: http://www.eldiariomontanes.es/2010...nto-masivo-grandes-empresas-201009291006.html

I feel for anyone (trying) to fly in today!


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Strikes can only take place after a ballot of all members


Thanks to Maggie. Note that the following labour governments left that piece of legislation in place.


----------



## gerrit

I agree that students generally have little political insight, but let's not generalise. There are students who do have a valued and well-considered opinion at a young age and who would strike only for the right reasons. Obviously, this is a minority, I'm just saying that youngsters with a well-considered opinion regarding politics exist.

Also, keep in mind that we were told we could strike if we for example disagreed with certain teachers' method of working, with the amounts of homework, ... It didn't need to be a political thing necessarily, we had the right to strike as well just if we disagreed with school policies. But obviously, if only 1 or 2 people would strike, the teacher would just do a test and the strikers would fill in nothing on their test papers and end up with a 0 out of 10 test score, so striking was only effective if the entire class would participate. Which is hard to organise, although I did try it once. Belgian education is a dramatic state and needs reforms quite drastically, even some teachers have literally admitted that in front of their entire student group, and now when looking back I can only say they were right. A strike wouldn't have been totally unjustified in all cases, that's my point.



One thing I must say: me and my fellow classmates had a political opinion built upon well-considered arguments while we were still in our teenage years. Thanks to a few teachers who found it important to educate us about the different political parties and what they stand for. This is not part of the obliged education and not part of the subjects to teach, but a 2 or 3 of our teachers found it important enough to nonetheless add it to the lessons. As a result we were confrontated to think about politics from an early age. We each had to make a research on the backgrounds of one political party and then had debates going on in class.

I am thankful for that, and I regret that it isn't compulsory in all schools. I am thankful for those few teachers who decided to still educate me and my classmates on the different political parties (on Belgian level) because that way we at least had a basic knowledge of what each party was representing. In a way these teachers took a risk because if one person blamed them to try to force their own bias on their students they could have been sanctioned. I am glad they ignored that risk and gave those lessons. In my opinion this should be compulsory in all schools ; after all, shortly after graduating the pupils reach the age by which they can vote. I regret this is not compulsory in all schools but I am thankful to those teachers who did gave these insights.

(that said, aged 18 I was still somewhat influented by my parents' political direction which is moderate right wing... With every year I moved further to the left so I am no longer in the same boat as my family in political terms. But we still get along and enjoy our debates, even when my opinions are quite drastically different compared to my family's. The debates are still in a pleasant atmosphere )



PS: in addition to compulsory political education, schools should also spend more time to the news and ongoing events. Back in my school days each student had to follow the news one week and then present the important newsfacts the beginning of the next week. This made everyone in class aware of ongoings and assured we had at least a basic understanding of it all. Again not a compulsory topic in schools, but my teachers thought it was useful. I am thankful for that.


----------



## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> One of the imo daftest things the last UK Government did was to institute a system of 'student voice' in schools. This meant that pupils as young as five were given a say in the appointment of teachers (!) and the running of the school.
> My union, NASUWT,has campaigned vociferously against this horrendous folly and hopefully it will now be erased from the statute book.


I think this is not entirely useless with a few "but"s:

- enforce this only in secondary school, not in primary school education
- don't let students have a say in appointments of teachers etc, but give them a vote in how the school functions in general (a sort of student union that cannot take decisions directly but has a biweekly meeting with the teachers or school management to openly discuss issues)

The student voice like you describe it is done in the UK is indeed silly, but the student voice in a different interpretation can be useful.

I think school/education system reforms are better to be done in a different topic or else my rant would be a bit too long and too far off-topic :focus:


----------



## baldilocks

Apart from the Health Centre where only Urgencias is working and the Correos, everything here is working as normal.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Thanks to Maggie. Note that the following labour governments left that piece of legislation in place.


Yes, and it was a much-needed piece of legislation.  Very few people would want to go back to the bad old days. No sensible person could argue with Thatcher's Union reforms.
I actually blame the short-sightedness of some trades union leaders for ushering in the Thatcher era. Few people remember the report commissioned by the Callaghan Government which was the result of an enquiry into industrial relations led by Prof. Alan Bullock. This report recommended that the unions take responsibility for management along the German model. Left-wing militants led by Arthur Scargill refused to adopt the recommendations as they did not see their function as 'propping up capitalism'. This imo was a major error which led to a power vaccum where unions were prepared to exercise their industrial muscle without the willingness to engage in constructive industrial democracy. 
And into this vacuum stepped Mrs.T......who did have constructive ideas about industrial democracy, albeit not of the kind that the militants envisaged.
In spite of what some people imagine, not all trades unionists are militants or even Labour voters. They are not some species apart...they are ordinary men and women who recognise that in the workplace unity is strength.
I have been an active Trades Unionist all my working life and was a member of the NUS whilst at University. I also worked for my Trades Union in the field of Employment Legislation and sat on many Government (DTI) Committees and Working Parties which dealt with all kinds of issues involving people at work and their rights.
I suppose you could describe me as a 'middle-class professional' with above-average income. I was also a Company Director and when I sat on Trades Union Committees often pointed that fact out when we began to steer towards Planet Zog. Most of my colleagues at work were Trades Unionists too - some were died-in-the-wool Tories but they too knew that their Union was their protector against all kinds of things from malicious allegations and harassment of all kinds and vital to negotiating redundancies, to negotiating salaries, terms and conditions and many other things such as providing insurance, legal cover and so on..
People who seriously advocate banning trades unions, apart from expressing profoundly undemocratic sentiments, are simply unaware of the vast range of activities Unions provide for their millions - yes millions -of members.
Free Trades Unions like political Parties are an essential part of a functioning democracy. Yes, they sometimes get things wrong.....but show me a Government that hasn't been responsible for major cock-ups in one sphere or another.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> We British in particular often fail to recognise that in spite of our manifest shortcomings we are a functioning pluralist democracy where we are not slaves of an elected Government, where we have the right to organise in political parties and trades unions, the right to demonstrate peacefully, the right to withdraw our labour and the right to legitimately qualified freedom of speech.


Well, that's what I thought too until they arrested that woman for reading out the names of British soldiers who had been killed in Iraq.

Acts of defiance against war turned ordinary people into criminals - Crime, UK - The Independent

It was round about then (2005) that we decided we'd had enough, and planned our escape to Spain - a country which, with 40 years of fascist repression still in living memory, seems to have a much more profound respect for human rights.

welcome back BTW, we've missed you!!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I don't understand what you mean by 'manipulation' and 'mob rule'. Strikes can only take place after a ballot of all members and are usually called for serious matters.


Is that true of Spain too? As nigele2 pointed out, unions don't always work in the same way here as in the UK.

From Halydia


> [/Oh frustrating. Hope he was able to get that done! Did he just get called as well? The government seems to be pulling all sorts of funny business this year to save a few euros on teachers. I see the best interests of students are at mind...
> QUOTE]
> 
> No he didn't just get "the call"!!OH didn't get any time between placements thank goodness. He never gets a permanent place, but he's always first or second in the list when they get called at the beginning if Sept so he just goes from one place to the other.


----------



## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I think this is not entirely useless with a few "but"s:
> 
> - enforce this only in secondary school, not in primary school education
> - don't let students have a say in appointments of teachers etc, but give them a vote in how the school functions in general (a sort of student union that cannot take decisions directly but has a biweekly meeting with the teachers or school management to openly discuss issues)
> 
> The student voice like you describe it is done in the UK is indeed silly, but the student voice in a different interpretation can be useful.
> 
> I think school/education system reforms are better to be done in a different topic or else my rant would be a bit too long and too far off-topic :focus:


Yes, older students do need to be given a voice and should have some input into how their school/college is run. I do agree. We had such structures in the school I ran. It's an essential training in decision-making and learning the constraints under which all systems have to operate.
But we have to remember that with rights go responsibilities. Children are not adults, obviously, and as such should not be expected to assume adult roles and responsibilities when they are ill-equipped for the task.
But if young people are not trained in the fundamentals of decision-making in a democracy then the future for democratic governance is very bleak indeed.

On another note: I've been reading the quality European press online and on reflection I think that if I were in the UK today and my Union called a strike to protest against deep cuts in public services as proposed by the Coalition Government, I would join it.
The people of the UK did not vote for such drastic austerity measures and I fear a double-dip recession will result from them.
So I would exercise my democratic right to withdraw my labour (although I would have been the boss of my organisation!).


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is that true of Spain too? As nigele2 pointed out, unions don't always work in the same way here as in the UK.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't know. If not, they should have. I don't know what if any programme for deficit reduction the Spanish unions are proposing. That's why I can't support the strike here as I haven't enough information and I like to have some grasp of the facts before expressing an opinion.
> But there has been an alternative proposed in the UK (the Lib Dems supported it before they sold their principles in return for putting their arses on Cabinet chairs) and it seems a sensible one which is why I'd strike if I were a UK worker.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Well, that's what I thought too until they arrested that woman for reading out the names of British soldiers who had been killed in Iraq.
> 
> Acts of defiance against war turned ordinary people into criminals - Crime, UK - The Independent
> 
> It was round about then (2005) that we decided we'd had enough, and planned our escape to Spain - a country which, with 40 years of fascist repression still in living memory, seems to have a much more profound respect for human rights.
> 
> welcome back BTW, we've missed you!!!


Thanks But a period of silence from me was surely worth my saving of 30 euros a month! Telitec came through - excellent service.
Yes, I agree. That was a monstrous infringement of civil liberties. Many such instances have taken place under New Labour.
But I can't go all the way with you on the civil liberties issue. Imo all freedoms can only have a meaningful existence if the _*essential*_ freedom -the freedom to live in peace free from aggression -is guaranteed by the Government - any Government. In order to maintain this basic freedom, other freedoms may have to be sacrificed when there exists a clear and present danger.
Now.....I accept this is not an easy path to take in a democracy. How, for instance, do we know that the threat isn't exaggerated? How do we know that there are not ulterior motives behind any piece of legislation that, say, curtails freedom of expression?
We have imo not really had an open informed debate about the limits we are prepared to- temporarily -accept on our freedoms. So yes,there have been abuses. Even worse ones in the USA under the Patriot Act where even the books citizens borrow from their local library are monitored and if of the 'wrong' kind can lead to a knock on the door......
What we don't want is the kind of uninformed knee-jerk reaction which sadly characterises much political discussion the world over..


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> No he didn't just get "the call"!!OH didn't get any time between placements thank goodness. He never gets a permanent place, but he's always first or second in the list when they get called at the beginning if Sept so he just goes from one place to the other.


That's great then! Tough to be tossed from school to school, but nice to have the security of work in September.


----------



## jimenato

Just about everything is open here apart from, strangely, the Chinese Bazaar two doors down. They are on strike!! I know that's why they are closed because I asked them. 

Probably a couple of Maoist commies.:lol:

(Actually, they are lovely people who we are very friendly with)


----------



## xabiaxica

so dd2 came home from school - the school bus was running after all

she is not happy


almost all the teachers were in school so she had normal classes - & she even has homework!!!



a totally different story at the instituto

most teachers weren't there - & those that were on the whole didn't teach - just sat in the playground

apparently a certain number have to be there - pretty much names pulled out of a hat

but they can still strike & not teach!


----------



## nigele2

Possibly of interest (well I found it interesting ) :

On The Global Competitiveness Index Analyzer 2010-2011 they have a very complex (you can see all the details) model to assess a country's competitiveness. 

Spain currently sits 42nd out of 153 countries. When Zapatero came to power (indirectly through terrorist action) Spain was 23rd.

So despite the 'crisis' there is a serious underlying problem for Spain. 

How effective the strike will be is difficult to say but at 13:10 a Madrid power company was seeing a 15.9% drop in energy demand so it is happening at least in the capital.


----------



## fourgotospain

Xab that must have just been Yr6 then - my two came home delighted that they had done colouring/drawing and plastica all day!!! And no homework! They were in such a good mo0od they even emptied the dishwasher and tidied the playroom 

Feel sorry for your baby now


----------



## jojo

Well, you'd not have noticed that there was a strike in Alhaurin El Grande. People, shops, deliveries, workmen all working and open as normal. I think Mercadona was closed, but that was all.

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Union bosses (who are elected by their members) are running what can be compared to enormous companies. They have huge responsibilities. Their members' subscriptions pay their salaries so it's up to them to complain if they object to what they get. I have a say in what my Union leader receives but no say in what the boss of my partly state-owned bank receives.
> ....
> I don't understand what you mean by 'manipulation' and 'mob rule'. Strikes can only take place after a ballot of all members and are usually called for serious matters.


Well apparently that's not what happens here!
I asked OH and he said if it's in a company they have to, but not for a general strike, which is what I thought. Did you hear anything about UGT or CCOO's ballot of their members?? No, 'cos they didn't have one. OH said they sent a load of emails, but there wasn't any ballot. He's a member of CCOO. (Left for the demonstration in Madrid a while ago)

BTW, there was considerably less traffic this morning, but there were also a lot of people working. Looked like 50/50 to me.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Just about everything is open here apart from, strangely, the Chinese Bazaar two doors down. They are on strike!! I know that's why they are closed because I asked them.
> 
> Probably a couple of Maoist commies.:lol:
> 
> (Actually, they are lovely people who we are very friendly with)


There´s just been a news item about that on Cuatro - all Chinese workers in Spain were advised not to work today. The official reason was fear of reprisals, but one chap looked very pleased to get a day off so he could go fishing!


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> There´s just been a news item about that on Cuatro - all Chinese workers in Spain were advised not to work today. The official reason was fear of reprisals, but one chap looked very pleased to get a day off so he could go fishing!



Our chinese shop up the road was open, no probs, In fact all the shops were open. My Cafe had all the usual deliveries, even Dia and Mercadona were open

Jo xxxx


----------



## Guest

Things were at about 85% in Bilbao and nearly 100% in my city. We were able to go to the Traffic Office, INEM, catch the metro, and go to the movie theater today. Absolute normalcy, with the exception of a few stickers, a bunch of "informative" papers littered about (surely we could consider the environment at some point, no?), and a bunch of folks marching from Sagrado Corazon to Casco Viejo in Bilbao at noon time. 

They say the demand for electricity was down 15% here in the Basque Country today. I'm not sure what the situation was like in the factories and/or poligonos.


----------



## zilly

Nothing atall open in Alora-the whole town closed except for one chemist for emergencies. Mercadona was the only shop open which I find surprising as they are so unionised.A friend and I found a cafe that was open for a coffee-but that was the only one .
Lots of stuff closed on the coast.


----------



## dunmovin

There was a strike yesterday? never noticed a thing different:ranger:


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well apparently that's not what happens here!
> I asked OH and he said if it's in a company they have to, but not for a general strike, which is what I thought. Did you hear anything about UGT or CCOO's ballot of their members?? No, 'cos they didn't have one. OH said they sent a load of emails, but there wasn't any ballot. He's a member of CCOO. (Left for the demonstration in Madrid a while ago)
> .


That seems to me to be quite wrong. Strikes should be called only after an independently conducted ballot of all members. In the UK strike ballots are usually organised by the Electoral Reform Commission.
I'm beginning to think that strike action should be called only where a majority of members expressed as a percentage of total membership vote in favour. In that way you wouldn't have a situation as in the BA cabin crew affair where a majority of a minority voted for strike action.
If people can't be bothered to vote,whether in a union or political election, then it's deplorable....but it's their right. The right NOT to vote goes hand-in-hand with the right TO vote imo.
Strong, healthy trades unions are vital in a democratic society. They are, however imperfect, the only shield against exploitation of the employee. I seem to remember a post -I think it was from Nigel? -describing deplorable treatment a relative of his had received from an employer. 
And if trades unions -or any other component of a democratic society -are found to be working imperfectly, the answer is to reform them, not ban them.
It's interesting: look back in history or at today's totalitarian regimes and you will look in vain for free political parties and free trades unions. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot in the past, the current odious regimes in Burma and North Korea....do they have free trades unions???
Until recently I was a member of the Steering Committee of Education International, which represents teacher trades unions all over the world and has millions of affiliated members. One of its tasks was to keep a watchful eye on members in countries where trades unionists are routinely abducted, tortured and murdered . Countries such as Colombia where scores -yes scores -of teacher trades unionists have been murdered by government death squads. PW knows all about that.
A teacher trades unionist from that country-a very brave young man -spoke to an EI Conference in London three years ago. He is now dead. Killed by the Colombian Government. One of many.
Some of you will understand why I get incensed when I hear talk of 'banning' trades unions.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Today's headlines (translated) from Spanish national papers El País, El Mundo etc 

_*General Failure*_

_*Zapatero will maintain labour reforms after a strike of moderate impact

Failure of the "borroko" strike (don't know what borroko is??!!)

The not general strike*_

And from El Público - the only paper that has said that the strike was a success
_*Industry was stopped - the street moved*_

Here's a link to newspapers around the world on the Spanish page. You could play match the English headline to the Spanish (as long as no one tells me off about my translation!!)
Peridicos de Espaa, Espaa. Toda la prensa de hoy. Kiosko.net


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> That seems to me to be quite wrong. Strikes should be called only after an independently conducted ballot of all members. In the UK strike ballots are usually organised by the Electoral Reform Commission.
> Yes, well I don't know all the ins and outs of this, and perhaps nigele2 knows more about unions in Spain, but doesn't that seem to be the start of the end of this strike?? I mean right from the beginning they didn't have the support from the majority of their members:confused2:
> If people can't be bothered to vote,whether in a union or political election, then it's deplorable....but it's their right. The right NOT to vote goes hand-in-hand with the right TO vote imo.
> Yes, I kind of agree, but I go for the blank or spoiled vote, not the NO vote, which I didn't realise until recently, is a very hot subject!
> Strong, healthy trades unions are vital in a democratic society. They are, however imperfect, the only shield against exploitation of the employee. I seem to remember a post -I think it was from Nigel? -describing deplorable treatment a relative of his had received from an employer.
> nigele2 has got a couple of horror stories to tell unfortunately
> And if trades unions -or any other component of a democratic society -are found to be working imperfectly, the answer is to reform them, not ban them. Yes.
> ...
> Until recently I was a member of the Steering Committee of Education International, which represents teacher trades unions all over the world and has millions of affiliated members. One of its tasks was to keep a watchful eye on members in countries where trades unionists are routinely abducted, tortured and murdered . Countries such as Colombia where scores -yes scores -of teacher trades unionists have been murdered by government death squads. PW knows all about that.
> My beloved Colombia - what a great country, but so many troubles. Actually, I don't know about the horrors of the teacher trade unions there, only what you have told me, but I do know that unfortunately Colombia and violence go hand in hand - as they do in Mexico, Venezuela...
> A teacher trades unionist from that country-a very brave young man -spoke to an EI Conference in London three years ago. He is now dead. Killed by the Colombian Government. One of many.
> Some of you will understand why I get incensed when I hear talk of 'banning' trades unions.


***


----------



## mrypg9

Thirty-two countries in the world have compulsory voting, Switzerland and Australia included. 
Presumably one can leave the ballot paper blank or write something on it rather than vote yes or no, put a cross or whatever.
I wrote something mildly rude on a ballot paper for a local election in the UK before I left, something along the lines of:' All these candidates are for various reasons unfit to be elected so I am unable to choose a preference'.
We joked that the counting officers probably recognised my writing (small town) and commented that Mary was having a bad day.....

On a serious note: teacher trades unionists are targeted in Colombia and similar states because education is a threat to dictatorships. Trades Unionists stick their heads above the parapets and offer easy targets.
I have so much admiration for and pride in these courageous people who however far away are my colleagues.


----------



## gerrit

Yes, Belgium and Greece are amongst the ones with voting duty, the only 2 EU members to have it. That said, penalties (fines up to a few hundred euros) for not turning up to vote are rarely enforced although it happens occasionally. It is true that the law requires only to show up to vote, but you're free to leave the form blank, draw some random lines or write whatever slogan you wish on your paper. You showed up, and you fulfilled your duty. The thing people may not realise is that such invalid votes are usually added to the tally of the party with most votes, so those thinking that invalid voting counts as a protest against the regime better realise that by making an invalid vote they de facto make a vote for the ruling party...



Barcelona was heavily struck by the strike. In the entire city center I found only a pharmacist and 2 dining places to be opened. There was a lot of police force, some roads were closed off and there was a lot of glass on the streets. Looks like there've been rome riots. Metro services (normally running until midnight) ceased operations at 8 PM.

I must say I regret now not having participated in the strike. I didn't want to let my colleagues down but in fact, knowing it's just one day, I mainly let my own believes down. Because I did fully support the strike. I don't fancy participating in crowded protest marches, but just being on strike as a signal is in itself a way to out your opinion. As I said, if it wasn't for the fact I have a really good relationship with my boss I'd not have doubted about striking even.


----------



## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I must say I regret now not having participated in the strike. I didn't want to let my colleagues down but in fact, knowing it's just one day, I mainly let my own believes down. Because I did fully support the strike. I don't fancy participating in crowded protest marches, but just being on strike as a signal is in itself a way to out your opinion. As I said, if it wasn't for the fact I have a really good relationship with my boss I'd not have doubted about striking even.


As I've been saying, I would have joined a properly-called and organised strike in the UK but I don't think I would have done here as the rationale for it seemed unclear.
As for your relationship with your boss -a good employer would have understood and supported you.
We urged all our employees to join a Union. Alas...their response was 'Why? We get paid very well and working conditions are extremely good. If we have problems you sort them out fairly and we're happy with that'. It never occurred to them that their wishes and ours might at some point be in conflict. This state of affairs suited us but wasn't a good one for them. 
So we two Directors were the only Trade Union members in the Company......


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> That seems to me to be quite wrong. Strikes should be called only after an independently conducted ballot of all members. In the UK strike ballots are usually organised by the Electoral Reform Commission.
> I'm beginning to think that strike action should be called only where a majority of members expressed as a percentage of total membership vote in favour. In that way you wouldn't have a situation as in the BA cabin crew affair where a majority of a minority voted for strike action.
> If people can't be bothered to vote,whether in a union or political election, then it's deplorable....but it's their right. The right NOT to vote goes hand-in-hand with the right TO vote imo.
> Strong, healthy trades unions are vital in a democratic society. They are, however imperfect, the only shield against exploitation of the employee. I seem to remember a post -I think it was from Nigel? -describing deplorable treatment a relative of his had received from an employer.
> And if trades unions -or any other component of a democratic society -are found to be working imperfectly, the answer is to reform them, not ban them.
> It's interesting: look back in history or at today's totalitarian regimes and you will look in vain for free political parties and free trades unions. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot in the past, the current odious regimes in Burma and North Korea....do they have free trades unions???
> Until recently I was a member of the Steering Committee of Education International, which represents teacher trades unions all over the world and has millions of affiliated members. One of its tasks was to keep a watchful eye on members in countries where trades unionists are routinely abducted, tortured and murdered . Countries such as Colombia where scores -yes scores -of teacher trades unionists have been murdered by government death squads. PW knows all about that.
> A teacher trades unionist from that country-a very brave young man -spoke to an EI Conference in London three years ago. He is now dead. Killed by the Colombian Government. One of many.
> Some of you will understand why I get incensed when I hear talk of 'banning' trades unions.


Are we to take it that Mary is the self appointed shop steward of the forum?


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Are we to take it that Mary is the self appointed shop steward of the forum?


Sorry - explanation needed.
I thought I'd made it clear that I don't believe in 'self-appointed' people anywhere...whether in trades unions, political parties or similar.
I believe in individual rights and democratic societies.
If you make your meaning clearer perhaps I can make a suitable response
In the meantime, take whatever you choose...
And this forum doesn't need 'shop stewards' whether 'self-appointed' or voted for. 
It has very efficient moderators.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Are we to take it that Mary is the self appointed shop steward of the forum?


shall we take a vote


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> shall we take a vote


No, I stood down from my elected officers last year

But i've been looking at past posts and it could perhaps be said that someone who likes to tell us how to behave, dress and shop in Spain, knows all about the 'real Spain', calls students who fail exams 'idiots' and thinks unions should be banned could be angling for the post of guardian of morals and culture?


----------



## mrypg9

*Education International has expressed dismay as news emerged that another teacher trade unionist has been killed in Colombia. This latest murder brings to 17 the total number of teachers that have been killed in 2010 alone.*


I'm sure most people posting on this thread will understand my feelings.
They may not share my nationality but they were my colleagues.
I have met some of them. They all had families and were dedicated to their work.


----------

