# Would you start a business in Spain?



## Sirtravelot

The whole autonomo seems like a major problem for business starters unless you've already got constant cashflow. I don't understand why the autonomo fee exists, especially considering the economic climate.

Starting a business is already big enough. Plus, the bureaucracy doesn't help.

I think starting a business in the UK would occur much quicker.

What do you think? 

Also, don't think I'd invest in Spain in general.


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## Leper

I wouldn't open a sweet-shop in Spain. If it was positioned outside the largest school in Spain, still I would not open the shop. If it was proved that the greatest population of Sweet-Tooths were living within twenty metres of the location I would not open the shop.

Spain is as good as dead for any new business. The recession has bitten and the population does not have the will or cop-on to climb out of their Doldrums. Most of them (the Spanish) are content to be fed Football, Pop-Music, soap-operas and Reality television 24/7. And their stupid government is content to keep them that way. Worse again, the Spaniards don't know what is happening and worse, worse again they don't want to know.


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## xabiaxica

the new autónomo deal makes it easier though - much lower payments for start-ups so at least you can give something a try without it being *too *painful


also, there are new deals for employing people on contract - I don't know the ins & outs of it, but friends of mine have opened a new restaurant & they were saying that they wouldn't have done so otherwise & also another friend is coming off autónomo (under the old expensive deal) because it will be cheaper all round for the company he 'works for' gives him a contract


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## Aron

Sirtravelot said:


> The whole autonomo seems like a major problem for business starters unless you've already got constant cashflow. I don't understand why the autonomo fee exists, especially considering the economic climate.
> 
> Starting a business is already big enough. Plus, the bureaucracy doesn't help.
> 
> I think starting a business in the UK would occur much quicker.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Also, don't think I'd invest in Spain in general.


I started a business in the UK in the middle of a recession with no finance. In fact at the time my wife and I were broke, but not bankrupt. People said we were mad, but we made a great success of it. It is the reason I am retired in a Spain.

Would I start a business in Spain, yes if I was in the same situation and the same age. It is all about work ethic. You can do anything if you want. Our business was in the food industry. Everyone has to eat!

As for investing in Spain, yes I do. I have shares in a company here and get dividends from those shares. People may say I am mad, but they said that when I started!


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## Guest

Leper said:


> I wouldn't open a sweet-shop in Spain. If it was positioned outside the largest school in Spain, still I would not open the shop. If it was proved that the greatest population of Sweet-Tooths were living within twenty metres of the location I would not open the shop.
> 
> Spain is as good as dead for any new business. The recession has bitten and the population does not have the will or cop-on to climb out of their Doldrums. Most of them (the Spanish) are content to be fed Football, Pop-Music, soap-operas and Reality television 24/7. And their stupid government is content to keep them that way. Worse again, the Spaniards don't know what is happening and worse, worse again they don't want to know.


If you have such contempt for the Spanish, why are you living in Spain?


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## mrypg9

meetloaf said:


> If you have such contempt for the Spanish, why are you living in Spain?



She has accurately depicted the current economic situation in Spain and many Spanish people would agree with her description.

What she says is true of the UK and many other European countries. People moan but are apathetic. A few go on the streets, shout and fight with the police but achieve nothing constructive. They either don't vote or vote for the same old..

Nothing will change until the silent majority wake up and find a voice.

And in reply to the OP...we were in business in the UK. No way would I start a business here, certainly not on the small scale of most Brit immigrant businesses.
Spain needs more bars, hairdressers and service industries in general like a hole in the head. It needs real substantial investment in manufacturing, preferably green and hi- tech, with a secure domestic as well as export market.
Such entrepreneurs and opportunities are as rare as hens' teeth.

Oh, and btw, I believe Leper is married to a Spaniard....


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## Sandraw719

I am quite interested to sell Spanish foods to China. How to start this?

I have to be self-employed and pay 250 euros per month?

The foods in China is far more expensive than here and Middle class Chinese would be happy to pay Spanish foods.


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## zx10r-Al

Things will change in the UK over time, to become more like Spain. People fly over to the UK, start a business (washing cars is popular), don't pay tax or NI until the end of the financial year where they conveniently go bust or disappear. I'm sure that's how Spain used to be, Brits flying to the costas, opening up a bar, getting loads of money during the summer and then leaving before getting a tax bill. The current Spanish system avoids that, and means that people need some capital behind them, and also need to have researched it well before diving in.


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## mrypg9

Sandraw719 said:


> I am quite interested to sell Spanish foods to China. How to start this?
> 
> I have to be self-employed and pay 250 euros per month?
> 
> The foods in China is far more expensive than here and Middle class Chinese would be happy to pay Spanish foods.


Sounds like agood idea and you obviously know your market.

Years ago, my aunt, who had emigrated to Florida in the 1950s and started a successful real estate business, visited her family in a seaside town in the UK. She noticed the popularity of sticks of rock with the town's name running through it...rock is a sticky pink confectionary that used to be very popular with holiday makers as a souvenir.

She contacted suppliers and set up a business back home in the coastal Florida town where she lived importing rock with the US town name and made money selling to locals and British visitors..Florida is a popular holiday destination for Brits.


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## Lynn R

I wouldn't start a business anywhere as I know nothing about it and haven't got an entrepreneurial bone in my body.

However, I am constantly surprised by the amount of new businesses that have sprung up (and a goodly proportion of them closed again in less than a year) in the area where I live, most of them by Spanish people. Restaurants, hairdressers/beauty salons, fruterias, pescaderias, florists, e-cigarette shops, clothing/accessories shops, and above all panaderias/pastelerias - there must have been a dozen more of those at least opened during the last 12 months. I haven't noticed, therefore, any lack of motivation to start working for themselves amongst the Spanish population, although I do wonder sometimes whether it has been the wisest thing to do.


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## Aron

Lynn R said:


> I wouldn't start a business anywhere as I know nothing about it and haven't got an entrepreneurial bone in my body.
> 
> However, I am constantly surprised by the amount of new businesses that have sprung up (and a goodly proportion of them closed again in less than a year) in the area where I live, most of them by Spanish people. Restaurants, hairdressers/beauty salons, fruterias, pescaderias, florists, e-cigarette shops, clothing/accessories shops, and above all panaderias/pastelerias - there must have been a dozen more of those at least opened during the last 12 months. I haven't noticed, therefore, any lack of motivation to start working for themselves amongst the Spanish population, although I do wonder sometimes whether it has been the wisest thing to do.


You need the right product in the right place at the right time. You need luck, but most of all the energy to work a 17 hour day. Many don't make it, but lots do and become successful.


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## NickZ

Lynn R said:


> However, I am constantly surprised by the amount of new businesses that have sprung up (and a goodly proportion of them closed again in less than a year)
> 
> I haven't noticed, therefore, any lack of motivation to start working for themselves amongst the Spanish population, although I do wonder sometimes whether it has been the wisest thing to do.


Often that is sheer desperation.

If you see no job openings the choice is sitting at home or trying.

Many have no skills or background in the new business. They end up running down what little savings they had.


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## tarot650

zx10r-Al said:


> Things will change in the UK over time, to become more like Spain. People fly over to the UK, start a business (washing cars is popular), don't pay tax or NI until the end of the financial year where they conveniently go bust or disappear. I'm sure that's how Spain used to be, Brits flying to the costas, opening up a bar, getting loads of money during the summer and then leaving before getting a tax bill. The current Spanish system avoids that, and means that people need some capital behind them, and also need to have researched it well before diving in.


In some respects you are spot on.The picture is from 19years ago.We had a bar just down form this strip and we were one hundred percent legal and the one thng that pissed us off was that only two of these bars pictured were totally legal like ourselves. and in the end we sold our bar as we couldn't compete on prices.If you saw the strip today all these bars are closed.But there are still businessess run today here that are making money but paying absolutely jack nothing in social,tax etc..You are never ever going to stop the black market as you will always get greedy people who think it is their god given right to not pay into the system.Would I start a business here today?Like Mary said,like a hole in the head..Don't forget to put your clocks forward this weekend. Just likt to say anybody who has had a sucessfull business in the UK doesn't mean to say they are going to make it in Spain.Some will but a hell of a lot will fail.Sad but true.


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## Pesky Wesky

Leper said:


> I wouldn't open a sweet-shop in Spain. If it was positioned outside the largest school in Spain, still I would not open the shop. If it was proved that the greatest population of Sweet-Tooths were living within twenty metres of the location I would not open the shop.
> 
> Spain is as good as dead for any new business. The recession has bitten and the population does not have the will or cop-on to climb out of their Doldrums. Most of them (the Spanish) are content to be fed Football, Pop-Music, soap-operas and Reality television 24/7. And their stupid government is content to keep them that way.* Worse again, the Spaniards don't know what is happening and worse, worse again they don't want to know.*


I don't know what you're referring to here.
Try telling that to the million who marched on Madrid and others around the country last weekend.
The first part of that paragraph (content to be fed football and reality tv etc) sounds like the UK to me!


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> the new autónomo deal makes it easier though - much lower payments for start-ups so at least you can give something a try without it being *too *painful
> 
> 
> also, there are new deals for employing people on contract - I don't know the ins & outs of it, but friends of mine have opened a new restaurant & they were saying that they wouldn't have done so otherwise & also another friend is coming off autónomo (under the old expensive deal) because it will be cheaper all round for the company he 'works for' gives him a contract


Be careful with those lower payments though. I believe they are only for 6 months and in Madrid there have been cases of people being required to pay back the difference after a certain time.


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## Pesky Wesky

Sandraw719 said:


> I am quite interested to sell Spanish foods to China. How to start this?
> 
> I have to be self-employed and pay 250 euros per month?
> 
> The foods in China is far more expensive than here and Middle class Chinese would be happy to pay Spanish foods.


Maybe get in touch with the Camera de Comercio.
Here it is in English
Madrid Chamber
And/Or the Chinese equivalent


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I wouldn't start a business anywhere as I know nothing about it and haven't got an entrepreneurial bone in my body.
> 
> However, I am constantly surprised by the amount of new businesses that have sprung up (and a goodly proportion of them closed again in less than a year) in the area where I live, most of them by Spanish people. Restaurants, hairdressers/beauty salons, fruterias, pescaderias, florists, e-cigarette shops, clothing/accessories shops, and above all panaderias/pastelerias - there must have been a dozen more of those at least opened during the last 12 months. I haven't noticed, therefore, any lack of motivation to start working for themselves amongst the Spanish population, although I do wonder sometimes whether it has been the wisest thing to do.


Lynn,
I just wanted you to know I really enjoy reading your posts. It's obvious that you know where you are, and understand what Spain's about


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## Pesky Wesky

NickZ said:


> Often that is sheer desperation.
> 
> If you see no job openings the choice is sitting at home or trying.
> 
> Many have no skills or background in the new business. They end up running down what little savings they had.


That is definitely what has been happening around here. Numerous small businesses, normally shops have opened and closed with in a year and it's obvious that thses people have had a lot of willing, but little nous when it comes to running a business and many many times they have been people making a last ditch attempt.


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## Pesky Wesky

Aron said:


> Would I start a business in Spain, yes if I was in the same situation and the same age. It is all about work ethic. You can do anything if you want. Our business was in the food industry. Everyone has to eat!


I strongly disagree with the idea that in Spain today it down to work ethic to make a business successful.
I think it's very much dependant on the right product or service as the market is changing even more rapidly than ever because of people's ever diminishing wage packet.
Yesterday I heard of another person who was earning a good solid salary and is now working for 30% less and travelling all over the country, and this is a big country! One day Barca, next a couple of days in Madrid, a day in Castellón. A man with a wife and 2 kids. They have less money and less time to spend that money too!
If you could sell that man something to make travelling more comfortable, quicker or efficient he'd buy it, but he's not going to buy new suit if he can help it, nor a pair of fancy trainers for his kids, nor an English course in an academy, nor flowers for the balcony that he's never going to see, no matter how many hours these salespeople put into pitching their products/ services.
However if someone (me?) was to offer him skype/ telephone English classes may be he'd be interested. 
Right product, right time, marketed correctly is as always important. If you have a good work ethic too you may have a winner.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Be careful with those lower payments though. I believe they are only for 6 months and in Madrid there have been cases of people being required to pay back the difference after a certain time.


I wasn't aware that you have to pay the difference back - I though they just gradually increase to the full amount over 2 years


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## webmarcos

xabiachica said:


> I wasn't aware that you have to pay the difference back - I though they just gradually increase to the full amount over 2 years


You're right in that they increase the amount to the full level over twio years.
However if you decide to pack up after say 6 months, then you are obliged then to repay the difference.
Incidentally, although the autonomo fee may be higher here, things like rent and business rates are far,far higher in the UK. So for example if you run a shop or a bar in Spain, you may be spending 250 euros more a month on autonomo fees, but saving 1000 euros on other bills.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Lynn,
> I just wanted you to know I really enjoy reading your posts. It's obvious that you know where you are, and understand what Spain's about


How nice, thank you very much.

I am quite in awe of the members like yourself who have been in Spain for many years and ARE managing to support themselves either by holding down employment or going the self-employed route, I salute you all!

Today's new business venture spotted on my town's main street - a new shoe shop, to add to the 5 or 6 that were already there.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I wouldn't start a business anywhere as I know nothing about it and haven't got an entrepreneurial bone in my body.
> 
> However, I am constantly surprised by the amount of new businesses that have sprung up (and a goodly proportion of them closed again in less than a year) in the area where I live, most of them by Spanish people. Restaurants, hairdressers/beauty salons, fruterias, pescaderias, florists, e-cigarette shops, clothing/accessories shops, and above all panaderias/pastelerias - there must have been a dozen more of those at least opened during the last 12 months. I haven't noticed, therefore, any lack of motivation to start working for themselves amongst the Spanish population, although I do wonder sometimes whether it has been the wisest thing to do.


Same in our village. Shops open...then close. We were wondering if there are start-up grants that people are using to try and make a go of it. 
I agree with Nick. It's desperation.

As for being entrepreneurial....Sandra owned a business. She worked seven days a week, often for twelve hours or more. She missed holidays so other staff could holiday with their families. She had to pay her accountant, any days off or holidays she paid for indirectly, had huge worries and responsibilities. She often reminded me that every penny was earned from 'over the counter' and that businesses like hers paid my wages and those of other public sector employees.

I was employed by a local authority...paid holidays, no need for accountants to sort out my work affairs, one hundred days paid sick leave, a union to protect me, no risk to invested money....

It amuses me when people talk blithely of starting a business as if it were as simple as making a cup of tea. Yes, there are people scraping a living, living from day to day, happy to be self-employed and perhaps even enjoying the 'status'. There are also those doing very well, making good profits with few worries.

But I have always maintained that those in the latter category are there not merely because of their hard work, smart business acumen, willing to be flexible and all the other airy -fairy stuff. Yes, those qualities are needed in most cases but anyone who has really made a go of a business will admit that luck, being in the right place at the right time, having a face that 'fits', are equally or more important.

Sandra did well because she had those qualities...but she would admit that circumstances played a large part in what success she achieved in business. She also benefited from being a bit of a rarity, an attractive feminine elegant woman owning a business in a traditionally male and macho sector.
She once lost a six figure contract because the customer moved to the North and took his trucking fleet with him. Sje was lucky, she could absorb the loss.
Many companies would have been unable to do so.

Until I learnt the nitty gritty of how business works I was full of hard-left claptrap about wicked capitalists, spending public money like water, the usual unrealistic stuff. When we became 'capitalists' it was a steep learning curve for me.


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## Aron

Lynn R said:


> How nice, thank you very much.
> 
> I am quite in awe of the members like yourself who have been in Spain for many years and ARE managing to support themselves either by holding down employment or going the self-employed route, I salute you all!
> 
> Today's new business venture spotted on my town's main street - a new shoe shop, to add to the 5 or 6 that were already there.


Then as I have to go to Vele-Malaga this afternoon, I may notice something new. I was there yesterday and chose the wrong day being a Thursday. Hopefully more parking today!


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I wasn't aware that you have to pay the difference back - I though they just gradually increase to the full amount over 2 years


A cut and paste from #8 on this thread
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...acion-private-teaching-rules.html#post2041361
_Warning
Just because you're supposed to get a grant it doesn't mean to say you will
Ayudas para autónomos, subvenciones para el autónomo | Infoautónomos
*MADRID*

*Denominación:* Ayudas al Empleo Autónomo
*Convocatoria 2013: PENDIENTE y no se prevé su apertura en lo que resta de año. De hecho, ya a finales de 2012 el colectivo de autónomos denunció la dificultad del cobro de dichas subvenciones y concedidas en la convocatoria 2011.*_


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## Marilo Pardo

Sandraw719 said:


> I am quite interested to sell Spanish foods to China. How to start this?
> 
> I have to be self-employed and pay 250 euros per month?
> 
> The foods in China is far more expensive than here and Middle class Chinese would be happy to pay Spanish foods.


Hello,

To start a business in Spain it's no so difficult. For sure, you has to pay the minimum 250€/month to the Seguridad Social. However, under certain conditions you could apply for an exemption the firs 6 months and then you will pay a minumun during 6 more months. also you can looking for some monetary aids for individuals / corporations that export goods outside Spain.


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## Lynn R

Aron said:


> Then as I have to go to Vele-Malaga this afternoon, I may notice something new. I was there yesterday and chose the wrong day being a Thursday. Hopefully more parking today!


Unfortunately there is even less parking at the moment, and likely to be so for the next 18 months at least. Work is going on to convert the old bus station into the new indoor market so the area behind the bus station where people have been parking is out of action, plus half the spaces available in the Plaza de la Constitucion have gone as work has also now started on restoring the Los Positos building (which I'm very glad about as it had become such an eyesore, they've only been promising the restoration for the last 30 years apparently!). Never has there been a better time to be a pedestrian and public transport user like me.

There is also a new "gastrobar" (how I hate that word) opened in the pedestrian street where the La Bohemia and El Caserio de las Monjas restaurants are, and a couple of months ago the El Convento restaurant/bar re-opened, it has been completely reformed and is now really nice inside, they have live music most Saturday nights and I've heard good reports about the food although we haven't tried it yet.That one is on C/Romero Pozo, just further up from the Hacienda office and the underground car park, on the opposite side.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> How nice, thank you very much.
> 
> I am quite in awe of the members like yourself who have been in Spain for many years and ARE managing to support themselves either by holding down employment or going the self-employed route, I salute you all!
> 
> Today's new business venture spotted on my town's main street - a new shoe shop, to add to the 5 or 6 that were already there.


Well I seem to remember that you've been here a few years yourself!
Anyway, it's definitely not a case of how many years you've been here, but how you live your life once you're here. If you have a, let's say healthy attitude, you'll learn and grow (a bit touchy feely I know) with the country. If you come with an unhealthy attitude you'll end up fighting with the country and misunderstanding and misinterpreting Spain and Spaniards.
Example - Two young American girls on the metro with big bags, very unsure of themselves, maps in hand, looking fearfully at the passengers. Young man goes up touches one of their bags and with a lovely smile asks if they want a hand in Spanish. Girl snatches bag out of his hand and tells friend "Did you see that?! That guy tried to take my bag right in front of me!!!" Young Spanish lad, obviously well to do and well mannered was completely flummoxed and young American girls were even more scared of evil Spaniard pickpockets that surrounded them in metro. 
Of course you have to careful in the metro, just as you do in the tube or in the subway, but those girls were well out of their depth. It looked to me as if they'd been warned and instead of looking at the people around them and seeing them as the ordinary people they were, they'd made up their minds beforehand to not trust the Spanish.
I'm sure we've all been guilty of this at some stage in our "Spanish lives", of misreading situations, analysing the situation and coming up with absolute rubbish (ie the Spanish are lazy cos when they're working on roads in the summer they knock off at 14.00. Never ocurrs to some people that maybe they started work at 7:00) but some manage to cope with the learning curve better than others and I think it's a mixture willingness, openmindedness, empathy and, yes, I'm going to say it - intelligence!!


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## Sandraw719

mrypg9 said:


> Same in our village. Shops open...then close. We were wondering if there are start-up grants that people are using to try and make a go of it.
> I agree with Nick. It's desperation.
> 
> As for being entrepreneurial....Sandra owned a business. She worked seven days a week, often for twelve hours or more. She missed holidays so other staff could holiday with their families. She had to pay her accountant, any days off or holidays she paid for indirectly, had huge worries and responsibilities. She often reminded me that every penny was earned from 'over the counter' and that businesses like hers paid my wages and those of other public sector employees.
> 
> I was employed by a local authority...paid holidays, no need for accountants to sort out my work affairs, one hundred days paid sick leave, a union to protect me, no risk to invested money....
> 
> It amuses me when people talk blithely of starting a business as if it were as simple as making a cup of tea. Yes, there are people scraping a living, living from day to day, happy to be self-employed and perhaps even enjoying the 'status'. There are also those doing very well, making good profits with few worries.
> 
> But I have always maintained that those in the latter category are there not merely because of their hard work, smart business acumen, willing to be flexible and all the other airy -fairy stuff. Yes, those qualities are needed in most cases but anyone who has really made a go of a business will admit that luck, being in the right place at the right time, having a face that 'fits', are equally or more important.
> 
> Sandra did well because she had those qualities...but she would admit that circumstances played a large part in what success she achieved in business. She also benefited from being a bit of a rarity, an attractive feminine elegant woman owning a business in a traditionally male and macho sector.
> She once lost a six figure contract because the customer moved to the North and took his trucking fleet with him. Sje was lucky, she could absorb the loss.
> Many companies would have been unable to do so.
> 
> Until I learnt the nitty gritty of how business works I was full of hard-left claptrap about wicked capitalists, spending public money like water, the usual unrealistic stuff. When we became 'capitalists' it was a steep learning curve for me.


I suppose it is very different in Europe.I am not really hard working at all. I am a housewife more than a business woman. I made some money in China. No tax,no accountant,just commission from a factory and some other income.

But there is no free medical no free education.We generally pay everything. However, the boss never respect you and there is no unemployed benefit or long holidays in China. That is one reason everybody wants to have his own business in China.

I must have more European thinking since I am here now.

Will talk to you about China if I can eace:


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## mrypg9

Sandraw719 said:


> I suppose it is very different in Europe.I am not really hard working at all. I am a housewife more than a business woman. I made some money in China. No tax,no accountant,just commission from a factory and some other income.
> 
> But there is no free medical no free education.We generally pay everything. However, the boss never respect you and there is no unemployed benefit or long holidays in China. That is one reason everybody wants to have his own business in China.
> 
> I must have more European thinking since I am here now.
> 
> Will talk to you about China if I can eace:


Hi Sandra,

You seem to be a very practical and resourceful person. I admire anyone who can masrer not only a difficult foreign language (English) but also a new alphabet..Respect

I think it depends on your line of business as to how difficult it is to make a good living. We were in the (respectable) motor trade...we had two businesses,one repairing and maintaining heavy goods vehicles, the others doing anything to 'ordinary' cars that needed doing, MOT,. repairs, spraying, bodywork and body styling...the 'pimp my ride' stuff... It's a very competitive trade and there are in the UK very many unqualified 'back street' 'mechanics' paying little if any tax and with no overheads. We had to have highly qualified workers with licences to drive enormous trucks and expensive equipment.
We were open 24/7 and even had a service for holidays such as Christmas Day..

Tell me one thing about China...we see on tv and read about the high standard of living of many Chinese people, the hi-tech industries, the freedom to travel...but what is life like in the rural areas? 
And , interesting since Spain suffered a civil war with many casualties and in many ways is still living the aftermath....how do Chinese people deal with the memory of Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward, when we are told millions died?

You'll have to move to Andalucia..


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## Sandraw719

mrypg9 said:


> Hi Sandra,
> 
> You seem to be a very practical and resourceful person. I admire anyone who can masrer not only a difficult foreign language (English) but also a new alphabet..Respect
> 
> I think it depends on your line of business as to how difficult it is to make a good living. We were in the (respectable) motor trade...we had two businesses,one repairing and maintaining heavy goods vehicles, the others doing anything to 'ordinary' cars that needed doing, MOT,. repairs, spraying, bodywork and body styling...the 'pimp my ride' stuff... It's a very competitive trade and there are in the UK very many unqualified 'back street' 'mechanics' paying little if any tax and with no overheads. We had to have highly qualified workers with licences to drive enormous trucks and expensive equipment.
> We were open 24/7 and even had a service for holidays such as Christmas Day..
> 
> Tell me one thing about China...we see on tv and read about the high standard of living of many Chinese people, the hi-tech industries, the freedom to travel...but what is life like in the rural areas?
> And , interesting since Spain suffered a civil war with many casualties and in many ways is still living the aftermath....how do Chinese people deal with the memory of Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward, when we are told millions died?
> 
> You'll have to move to Andalucia..


Generally Chinese people have much better life than before. My brother went to Africa for two years and said the standard of my little apartment was as good as the president in Mali! He was invited by some African national TV to make one hour speech.

I told my uncle who is in the rural village in China how bad the mobile signal in Spain,he could not believe that. The broadband and Wifi is really better than Spain. You can get good signal in the steet near a shop and it is all free. Some farmers in the village manage to sell the products online!

Also,the water and electricity is only 20% of what we paid in Spain.

But the foods are very expensive in China. We paid at least as much as or even more than we pay here.

For Chairman Mao, all the stories are true.

But we prefer to forgive him since the corruption is awful in China.All the government people steal the money and won't give us free medical and education.


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## Pesky Wesky

Returning to the subject of doing business in Spàin...
Here is the latest doing business rankings
Economies are ranked on their ease of doing business, from 1 – 189. A high ranking on the ease of doing business index means the regulatory environment is more conducive to the starting and operation of a local firm. This index averages the country's percentile rankings on 10 topics, made up of a variety of indicators, giving equal weight to each topic. The rankings for all economies are benchmarked to June 2013.
If you want to find Spain scroll

on

d
o
w
n

Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group


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## Barriej

Lynn R said:


> How nice, thank you very much.
> 
> I am quite in awe of the members like yourself who have been in Spain for many years and ARE managing to support themselves either by holding down employment or going the self-employed route, I salute you all!
> 
> Today's new business venture spotted on my town's main street - a new shoe shop, to add to the 5 or 6 that were already there.


But thats what you do. There is no point in starting a unique business as you can never be sure of selling anything. Most people who start a business look around and see what is being sold then go into the same or very similar thing, because if two shops are surviving a third must be able to, even at the expense of putting one of the others out of business. Tough world, but there you go.

My wife ran a successful Jewellery and Gift shop here in the Uk, 5 doors away there was a traditional jewellers, a high end gift shop and a couple of other shops selling similar products, Competition is a good thing. She worked 14 hours a day, seven days a week, but its something she enjoyed. We holidayed in the Caribbean, we have a nice home ( still mortgaged but you can't have everything)

I ran a business for 20 years along side a similar day job, working 16 plus hours 6 days a week. If you wish to succeed its what you have to do. 

As to the original question, Yes I would take on a business in Spain, in fact we have been looking and still are looking for one. 
But we are waiting for the right one to come up. Location is key, we have good business experience and a wide range of product knowledge. Wont be a bar though. 

I would not start a new business in the Uk or Spain, indeed in most of Europe, unless it was a product that was a guaranteed seller. And they are like rocking horse manure


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## Pesky Wesky

Barriej said:


> But thats what you do. There is no point in starting a unique business as you can never be sure of selling anything. Most people who start a business look around and see what is being sold then go into the same or very similar thing, because if two shops are surviving a third must be able to, even at the expense of putting one of the others out of business. Tough world, but there you go.
> 
> My wife ran a successful Jewellery and Gift shop here in the Uk, 5 doors away there was a traditional jewellers, a high end gift shop and a couple of other shops selling similar products, Competition is a good thing. She worked 14 hours a day, seven days a week, but its something she enjoyed. We holidayed in the Caribbean, we have a nice home ( still mortgaged but you can't have everything)
> 
> I ran a business for 20 years along side a similar day job, working 16 plus hours 6 days a week. If you wish to succeed its what you have to do.
> 
> As to the original question, Yes I would take on a business in Spain, in fact we have been looking and still are looking for one.
> But we are waiting for the right one to come up. Location is key, we have good business experience and a wide range of product knowledge. Wont be a bar though.
> 
> I would not start a new business in the Uk or Spain, indeed in most of Europe, unless it was a product that was a guaranteed seller. And they are like rocking horse manure


I think there are different definitions for most things, like what's funny, what's interesting and also what a successful business is. For me success means having enough free time to relax, not being tired all the time, having enough money to live without looking over my shoulder and so working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for 20 years isn't success to me. No disrespect meant, but it just struck me that there are completely different ideas of what success is.
Also about the product, there is the idea of the tried and true, but also the idea of the new product that fills a gap in the market.
I do agree though that location is key and along with that I'd add that advertising; continued, focused advertising is also vital and this is where I see many companies in my town fail time and time again.


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think there are different definitions for most things, like what's funny, what's interesting and also what a successful business is. For me success means having enough free time to relax, not being tired all the time, having enough money to live without looking over my shoulder and so working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for 20 years isn't success to me. No disrespect meant, but it just struck me that there are completely different ideas of what success is.
> Also about the product, there is the idea of the tried and true, but also the idea of the new product that fills a gap in the market.
> I do agree though that location is key and along with that I'd add that advertising; continued, focused advertising is also vital and this is where I see many companies in my town fail time and time again.



Having gone down this road a few years ago at length, I worry that anyone from the UK without a sound knowledge of Spain, its language, its rules and regulations is taking far more risks and uncertainty than in the UK. When we were planning to open/transfer our business to Spain, it was to amalgamate with an existing Spanish one, ok the owner of the Spanish business was english, but he'd lived in Spain for 20 years and was married to a Spanish lady - We couldnt have contemplated it on our own - that said, the recession happened and we had to put it on hold anyway and keep our UK business going. The Spanish one has now had to diversify and he's doing a multitude of other things - but then he is established and has his wifes family behind him all the way

Jo xxxx


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## Barriej

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think there are different definitions for most things, like what's funny, what's interesting and also what a successful business is. For me success means having enough free time to relax, not being tired all the time, having enough money to live without looking over my shoulder and so working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for 20 years isn't success to me. No disrespect meant, but it just struck me that there are completely different ideas of what success is.
> Also about the product, there is the idea of the tried and true, but also the idea of the new product that fills a gap in the market.
> I do agree though that location is key and along with that I'd add that advertising; continued, focused advertising is also vital and this is where I see many companies in my town fail time and time again.


Would agree completely about the success bit, I only did the long days to give us the easier life we have now. Im now free to pick and choose my work. To me it was worth it as I started in my late teens and slowed down once the kids came along. 
And you are so right about the advertising, many business's spend nothing at all, they expect people to just turn up. You have to keep reminding people until they fed up and come see what the fuss is about. Works almost every time.


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## mrypg9

Barriej said:


> But thats what you do. There is no point in starting a unique business as you can never be sure of selling anything. Most people who start a business look around and see what is being sold then go into the same or very similar thing, because if two shops are surviving a third must be able to, even at the expense of putting one of the others out of business. Tough world, but there you go.
> 
> My wife ran a successful Jewellery and Gift shop here in the Uk, 5 doors away there was a traditional jewellers, a high end gift shop and a couple of other shops selling similar products, Competition is a good thing. She worked 14 hours a day, seven days a week, but its something she enjoyed. We holidayed in the Caribbean, we have a nice home ( still mortgaged but you can't have everything)
> 
> I ran a business for 20 years along side a similar day job, working 16 plus hours 6 days a week. If you wish to succeed its what you have to do.
> 
> As to the original question, Yes I would take on a business in Spain, in fact we have been looking and still are looking for one.
> But we are waiting for the right one to come up. Location is key, we have good business experience and a wide range of product knowledge. Wont be a bar though.
> 
> I would not start a new business in the Uk or Spain, indeed in most of Europe, unless it was a product that was a guaranteed seller. And they are like rocking horse manure


Success is indeed subjective. By your definition, I was more 'successful' than you in that I had an unmortgaged nice home, a detached eighteenth century cottage, could afford to holiday in the Caribbean and drove BMWs and Mercs....yet somebody else paid my salary. I had an employer, thankfully! I didn't really work hard, had no worries as my job was secure and no way did I put in those long hours. I didn't particularly enjoy my job though. But I had plenty of free time, long holidays.

Compared to my business- owner partner's working life with its long hours and worries, my working life was a bed of roses.

No way would I personally have wanted to have my own business. I'm too risk- averse and, frankly, too lazy.i dabbled in the property market but sold up when it all became too demanding...too much like hard work.

It seems to me that whether you are 'successful' or not, you have to have special qualities to go into business, unless of course you have enough dosh to pay someone else to run your business and you just had to sit back and watch the money roll in.

I think I could have coped with that...


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## Aron

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think there are different definitions for most things, like what's funny, what's interesting and also what a successful business is. For me success means having enough free time to relax, not being tired all the time, having enough money to live without looking over my shoulder and so working 16 hours a day 6 days a week for 20 years isn't success to me. No disrespect meant, but it just struck me that there are completely different ideas of what success is.
> Also about the product, there is the idea of the tried and true, but also the idea of the new product that fills a gap in the market.
> I do agree though that location is key and along with that I'd add that advertising; continued, focused advertising is also vital and this is where I see many companies in my town fail time and time again.


We started a business because we were rock bottom, no money and no prospects. My my wife was highly qualified, but we had young kids. Anyway, we had a plan and I left home up north and travelled south to start again. After 6 months my family joined me. We did make a success of our business which was in the food industry dealing with everyone from locals to royalty within 10 years. We worked up to 17 hours a day, but we got a lot of job satisfaction from our work. To begin with we had no luxuries like people have today, such as holidays. Once we were established we then had a life which surpassed many others. You can work long hours and create a great life. Eventually the business was sold and we moved on to other things in our lives. We always wanted time to hike and have now hiked the Rockies many times in both Canada ans the US. None of that would ever have been possible without long hard hours. You mentioned having to work 6 days with long hours, we worked 7 days if necessary. There is nothing wrong in working long hours and being successful if you have job satisfaction, watching something grow that you developed from nothing. 
As I said earlier, you need the right product at the right time and the right place, in that way we were lucky. We didn't go into business just to be self employed, which to many is an ideal, we did it it because it was the only way we saw out of poverty.


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## mrypg9

I think it's noteworthy that for some people their work has been their main focus and interest in life. My son and dil are like that...he has his own company. 
They both work long hours, socialise with people they work with and at work- related functions and their conversation frequently relates to their work in one way or other. My dil works in thefinancial sector too, my son in the IT-'related financial sector.
By most standards they are very successful..big house in the UK, house in Spain., Aston Martin and other posh cars in the drive
But their lives revolve around work. Leisure time, friends...all work- related.

My work life and 'other' life were to a great extent separate, in compartments. I didn't really enjoy my work and I had little in common with the people I worked with. The day I left the building for the last time was one of the greatest of my life.

I'm finding it hard to find the right words to express what I, want to say and I don't want to sound airy-'fairy but the way we live now seems at times to be a form of slavery in gold chains. This Anglo- Saxon work ethic, living to work, ...is this how life is best lived? Now we are told we must work until seventy. Live to work...or work to live?
We tend to think that the way we live now is how things have always been but that isn't so. The kind of society we have now, where the market economy rules our lives , is comparatively recent in historical terms.
It seems we define success by what our work has bought for us. I'm not exempt from this in that my work has bought my pleasant retirement. 
I just think our work- life balance needs a rethink and possible readjustment.

Sorry if this sounds like waffle...


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## Pesky Wesky

Aron said:


> We started a business because we were rock bottom, no money and no prospects. My my wife was highly qualified, but we had young kids. Anyway, we had a plan and I left home up north and travelled south to start again. After 6 months my family joined me. We did make a success of our business which was in the food industry dealing with everyone from locals to royalty within 10 years. We worked up to 17 hours a day, but we got a lot of job satisfaction from our work. To begin with we had no luxuries like people have today, such as holidays. Once we were established we then had a life which surpassed many others. You can work long hours and create a great life. Eventually the business was sold and we moved on to other things in our lives. We always wanted time to hike and have now hiked the Rockies many times in both Canada ans the US. None of that would ever have been possible without long hard hours. You mentioned having to work 6 days with long hours, we worked 7 days if necessary. There is nothing wrong in working long hours and being successful if you have job satisfaction, watching something grow that you developed from nothing.
> As I said earlier, you need the right product at the right time and the right place, in that way we were lucky. We didn't go into business just to be self employed, which to many is an ideal, we did it it because it was the only way we saw out of poverty.


I agree that if you have to do it, you do it. I've worked hard, but I'm lucky enough, imo, to never have had to work that hard.
I was part of a coop for some years and whilst we were setting it up wages were few and far between, but we made a go of it, it's still running and I still work with them from time to time.
I left when we moved out of the city when I got pregnant. Now plenty of people live where I live and commute to Madrid, but it means that basically you give up family life because due to Spanish working hours and the commute I would have been out of the house from 6:00 until 18:00 - 22:00, who knows? I didn't have a baby to leave her with other people for most of her waking hours, so I changed direction, and built up a very small scale one woman operation here. No big bucks, holidays yes, but uk family visits and Spain, one car, no early retirement on the horizon...
We made choices as most people do, consciously or unconsciously and I chose small scale and family orientated. Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but I've been pretty happy with it, although I'd like to be in a better position than I am atm, but the crisis effects all Spanish workers sooner or later.
Of course we've been lucky that we've been able to make choices. I'm pretty sure my daughter won't have the same liberty when she starts work.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I think it's noteworthy that for some people their work has been their main focus and interest in life. My son and dil are like that...he has his own company.
> They both work long hours, socialise with people they work with and at work- related functions and their conversation frequently relates to their work in one way or other. My dil works in thefinancial sector too, my son in the IT-'related financial sector.
> By most standards they are very successful..big house in the UK, house in Spain., Aston Martin and other posh cars in the drive
> But their lives revolve around work. Leisure time, friends...all work- related.
> 
> My work life and 'other' life were to a great extent separate, in compartments. I didn't really enjoy my work and I had little in common with the people I worked with. The day I left the building for the last time was one of the greatest of my life.
> 
> I'm finding it hard to find the right words to express what I, want to say and I don't want to sound airy-'fairy but the way we live now seems at times to be a form of slavery in gold chains. This Anglo- Saxon work ethic, living to work, ...is this how life is best lived? Now we are told we must work until seventy. Live to work...or work to live?
> We tend to think that the way we live now is how things have always been but that isn't so. The kind of society we have now, where the market economy rules our lives , is comparatively recent in historical terms.
> It seems we define success by what our work has bought for us. I'm not exempt from this in that my work has bought my pleasant retirement.
> I just think our work- life balance needs a rethink and possible readjustment.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds like waffle...


I _think_ we've said/ intimated similar thoughts - in very different ways!!

One thing I will say is that I have little understanding of people who put up long hours of work when they have chosen to do so as a badge of honour. One thing is having to work night and day to keep a business running. Another is chosing to do it 'cos you want to increase profitability. That is up to you, dear business owner and the choice that you make to not have leisure time is yours.


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## Leper

Hey Guys! When you've stopped slapping yourselves in the back (and no doubt most of you deserved the slap in the back) can we get back to the subject afoot? I'm probably treading on corns here bearing in mind that some have 'made it' the hard way. Welcome to my world! 

The question poised:- Would you start a Business in Spain (now)? Unless, you are one of the greatest gamblers of all time or that you have come into a bigger windfall than you can bear now is not to time to bust your butt trying to set up a business in Spain. 

I have been accused in Page 1 of this thread of treating the Spaniards with contempt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of my friends are Spanish. I like them. There are also some Spaniards (and other expats) that I don't like. 

The same accuser questioned my right to live in Spain. Get one thing straight Buddy - I am entitled to live in Spain, if I wish. If you have problems with this then wake up. In case you don't know Spain is in the EU and at the moment it is an EU Leper. From what I see it does not have to fight to reproduce itself into a country that a prospering business can be set up.

I do not blame its people although when I look around I see at least the Catalan, Basque people trying to distance themselves from Spain. Add in a few more provincial expressions of independence and you are looking at a once great country continuing to go down the tubes. Nobody will convince me that the reasons are purely cultural. It's financial repeat It's financial.

This recession that we are all in is biting. Most of Europe, sorry most of the European Peoples have slowly pulled themselves out of the recession. It suits the Spanish government to keep their subjects in Football, Soap-Operas etc just in case they might think straight. The Spanish government has achieved more in six years than the Roman Empire could do in an Age.

Most of Spain is not ready for any major business start-up. Therefore, I argue that you are wasting your time starting a business. Let's hope things change.


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, it would be interesting if people who had set up a business in Spain actually contributed to the thread!
I suppose I can include myself as a self employed worker. I go to companies in my area and give English classes to the empoyees.
If it weren't for my husband's salary I wouldn't be able to support myself and my daughter, but it's a choice as I said before. 
There are people on the forum who've started their own business and some have been pretty successful, and others I guess not. Would be nice to hear about both of them!


----------



## Aron

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree that if you have to do it, you do it. I've worked hard, but I'm lucky enough, imo, to never have had to work that hard.
> I was part of a coop for some years and whilst we were setting it up wages were few and far between, but we made a go of it, it's still running and I still work with them from time to time.
> I left when we moved out of the city when I got pregnant. Now plenty of people live where I live and commute to Madrid, but it means that basically you give up family life because due to Spanish working hours and the commute I would have been out of the house from 6:00 until 18:00 - 22:00, who knows? I didn't have a baby to leave her with other people for most of her waking hours, so I changed direction, and built up a very small scale one woman operation here. No big bucks, holidays yes, but uk family visits and Spain, one car, no early retirement on the horizon...
> We made choices as most people do, consciously or unconsciously and I chose small scale and family orientated. Not everyone's cup of tea I know, but I've been pretty happy with it, although I'd like to be in a better position than I am atm, but the crisis effects all Spanish workers sooner or later.
> Of course we've been lucky that we've been able to make choices. I'm pretty sure my daughter won't have the same liberty when she starts work.


Our daughter left school and became a shop assistant. She had no qualifications. When she was in her late twenties she decided to get a better job in accounts with a good company. She managed to do distance learning which meant long hours working and learning. She is now an accountant and works for a large international company. She always tells people, I saw how hard mum and dad worked through their lives. It's all about a work ethic, you can do it if you know you can do it. Hard work never killed anyone provided you enjoy what you do and young enough to sustain it.
I will say one thing, my life has been a hell of a journey!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Leper said:


> I have been accused in Page 1 of this thread of treating the Spaniards with contempt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of my friends are Spanish. I like them. There are also some Spaniards (and other expats) that I don't like.


Leper,
I didn't say you treated the Spanish with contempt, but if you write things like this


> Most of them (the Spanish) are content to be fed Football, Pop-Music, soap-operas and Reality television 24/7. And their stupid government is content to keep them that way. Worse again, the Spaniards don't know what is happening and worse, worse again they don't want to know.


you should expect to be questioned. The fact that you have friends who are Spaniards (which is to be expected as you are liviing in Spain) doesn't mean anything. So, could you explain what you mean by "Spaniards don't know what's happening"? and the other comments that you've made here?


----------



## mrypg9

Leper said:


> Hey Guys! When you've stopped slapping yourselves in the back (and no doubt most of you deserved the slap in the back) can we get back to the subject afoot? I'm probably treading on corns here bearing in mind that some have 'made it' the hard way. Welcome to my world!
> 
> The question poised:- Would you start a Business in Spain (now)? Unless, you are one of the greatest gamblers of all time or that you have come into a bigger windfall than you can bear now is not to time to bust your butt trying to set up a business in Spain.
> 
> I have been accused in Page 1 of this thread of treating the Spaniards with contempt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some of my friends are Spanish. I like them. There are also some Spaniards (and other expats) that I don't like.
> 
> The same accuser questioned my right to live in Spain. Get one thing straight Buddy - I am entitled to live in Spain, if I wish. If you have problems with this then wake up. In case you don't know Spain is in the EU and at the moment it is an EU Leper. From what I see it does not have to fight to reproduce itself into a country that a prospering business can be set up.
> 
> I do not blame its people although when I look around I see at least the Catalan, Basque people trying to distance themselves from Spain. Add in a few more provincial expressions of independence and you are looking at a once great country continuing to go down the tubes. Nobody will convince me that the reasons are purely cultural. It's financial repeat It's financial.
> 
> This recession that we are all in is biting. Most of Europe, sorry most of the European Peoples have slowly pulled themselves out of the recession. It suits the Spanish government to keep their subjects in Football, Soap-Operas etc just in case they might think straight. The Spanish government has achieved more in six years than the Roman Empire could do in an Age.
> 
> Most of Spain is not ready for any major business start-up. Therefore, I argue that you are wasting your time starting a business. Let's hope things change.


The UK Government has just initiated an ad campaign publicising its new tax regime, proudly announcing that 'hard- working people can now spend more money on the things they enjoy', i.e. beer and bingo. Note the word 'they'. Patronising twaddle.

Beer and bingo, bread and circuses, football and telly...nothing specifically Spanish about what the government is doing. It's what governments do to distract people from the economic mess they've made. Like the sabre- rattling over Gibraltar.

What is happening in Europe is the result of thirty years of neo- liberalism. It's interesting how this false and evil ideology has infiltrated every aspectof our lives.
Some people might consider a life of seven day working weeks to buy a house, an exotic holiday or a Porsche a success...to me it's a sad reflection of the way our lives have been changed...and as I see it, not for the better.


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## Pesky Wesky

Aron said:


> Our daughter left school and became a shop assistant. She had no qualifications. When she was in her late twenties she decided to get a better job in accounts with a good company. She managed to do distance learning which meant long hours working and learning. She is now an accountant and works for a large international company. She always tells people, I saw how hard mum and dad worked through their lives. It's all about a work ethic, you can do it if you know you can do it. Hard work never killed anyone provided you enjoy what you do and young enough to sustain it.
> I will say one thing, my life has been a hell of a journey!


Again, personally I think for many it's a choice, not a necessity, and if that's what people decide, well good for them. 
My daughter worked very hard at school with a lot of support from us as we were around to give her that support, and she did get qualifications. She saw that her parents valued hard work too, but maybe in a different way to working late nights and weekends.
It may be about work ethic, but I think there's more than one work ethic.
I think hard work did/ does kill a lot of people. It also destroys a lot of marriages and leaves kids without guidance and support.


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## mrypg9

An interesting point: Leper describes Spain as a 'once great country'. 
Err, no. It hasn't been 'great' in global terms for the last six hundred years.
Spain's decline was quite dramatic and seemingly due to the fact that because of its enormous Peruvian silver reserves, it failed to adapt to the new cash- less banking systems being developed in Italy, .Britain and Holland. The glut of silver on the domestic market also caused rampant inflation which had a marked effect on food prices. The population of Spain declined dramatically in the middle of the last millenium.

Those who decry the cruelty of the British Empire might reflect that Spain, in its lust for wealth and conversion to Christianity, created an empire as bad or possibly worse.


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## mrypg9

Aron said:


> Our daughter left school and became a shop assistant. She had no qualifications. When she was in her late twenties she decided to get a better job in accounts with a good company. She managed to do distance learning which meant long hours working and learning. She is now an accountant and works for a large international company. She always tells people, I saw how hard mum and dad worked through their lives. It's all about a work ethic, you can do it if you know you can do it. Hard work never killed anyone provided you enjoy what you do and young enough to sustain it.
> I will say one thing, my life has been a hell of a journey!


But hard work did kill people and still does. Not everyone has work they enjoy, far from it. People in manual occupations have lower life expectancy than those with professional jobs in most countries. Millions of people all over the world labour in atrocious conditions for a pittance.

What is this 'it' that you can do if you work hard enough? Buy a house? Have a Bentley in your drive? Holiday in Acalpulco?
Is that the highest aim of human life?

How lucky I must be to have earned good money, had all the trappings...yet never worked long hours or worked to the point of exhaustion . I had time throughout my working lifento do thethings I truly enjoyed...human things for sheer enjoyment, not profit. Indeed I made them a priority over my working life to the point where I turned my back on opportunities for promotion andmore money.

Well, maybe I was just lucky. My gran always said that if I fell in **** I'd come up smelling of roses.
But I think it's down to values. I value my time to do what I enjoy and not jumping when someone says 'Jump' is worth more to me than financial success. If I am reincarnated I will spend even less time earning and more enjoying as the older I get the more I realise that life is about more than the car you drive.
I wish I had known that earlier.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> But hard work did kill people and still does. Not everyone has work they enjoy, far from it. People in manual occupations have lower life expectancy than those with professional jobs in most countries. Millions of people all over the world labour in atrocious conditions for a pittance.
> 
> What is this 'it' that you can do if you work hard enough? Buy a house? Have a Bentley in your drive? Holiday in Acalpulco?
> Is that the highest aim of human life?


Not only those in poorer countries or in manual work. I'm thinking of people that I know. 
One man in his early fifties, very high up in the company not married, no children and why? Because he's in the office from 7:00 until 21:00/ 24:00 every day. 
Another married, 2 children managing director. Works 8:00/ 8:30 - 20:00/ 20:30 every day plus trips abroad every month plus weekend retreats for work 3 - 4 times a year.
Another, family in Valencia, he works in Madrid Mon - Fri. 2 children. Work 8:00 - 20:00 every day...
To me these are unsustainable lives that are damaging if not killing these people, and the relationships they have.

And I agree that we are right to question - to what end? Is having the latest I Pad, home cinema and a car no more than 4 years old "it"?
Well for many people it is, but personally I think it's a shame...


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## brocher

Aron said:


> Our daughter left school and became a shop assistant. She had no qualifications. When she was in her late twenties she decided to get a better job in accounts with a good company. She managed to do distance learning which meant long hours working and learning. She is now an accountant and works for a large international company. She always tells people, I saw how hard mum and dad worked through their lives. It's all about a work ethic, you can do it if you know you can do it. Hard work never killed anyone provided you enjoy what you do and young enough to sustain it.
> I will say one thing, my life has been a hell of a journey!


Education got your daughter where she is now, not the hard work. 

Obviously she regretted not having been given the guidance to take full advantage of education when she was younger, which would have saved those wasted shop years and the unnecessary extra work of distance learning.


----------



## Aron

brocher said:


> Education got your daughter where she is now, not the hard work.
> 
> Obviously she regretted not having been given the guidance to take full advantage of education when she was younger, which would have saved those wasted shop years and the unnecessary extra work of distance learning.


I don't believe either of us had wasted years. We both know people who took advantage of the educational system and never prospered one bit. I started life in the farming industry. Very poorly paid, long hours but a satisfying job. I have no regrets. 

My daughter got where she is through hard work combined with education. I at least will give her credit for that.


----------



## Aron

mrypg9 said:


> But hard work did kill people and still does. Not everyone has work they enjoy, far from it. People in manual occupations have lower life expectancy than those with professional jobs in most countries. Millions of people all over the world labour in atrocious conditions for a pittance.
> 
> 
> 
> With respect Mary, I said hard work never killed anyone who enjoyed their work, and young enough to sustain it.
> There are many fit people in their 70's still wanting to work because they enjoy what they are doing. We employed a 65 year old who was told she was too old to work at school. She worked for us two days a week for 12 years and it gave her a reason to look forward to each week. Sadly she died just at the time we came to Spain aged 102.


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think hard work did/ does kill a lot of people. It also destroys a lot of marriages and leaves kids without guidance and support.


I agree. I've never been self-employed, but I spent 20 years of my working life as a full time trade union employee, I job I was totally committed to, as were most of my colleagues. The pay and employment conditions were great, but we worked very long hours, evenings and weekends, people basically ate, breathed and slept work and never "switched off". I saw so many marriages break up, people using alcohol as crutch to cope with the stress, a number dying suddenly either weeks before or weeks after their retirement. I knew myself that the job was taking a toll on my mental health and took the opportunity to get out before it was too late and I was totally burnt out. I did work for a number of years after that, but never let the job become all-consuming in that way again.

Once I was sure we could cope financially, I gave it up altogether, aged 50, and it's the best thing I ever did. No, I don't live in a villa with a pool, drive an expensive car (no car at all, in fact), etc. But we have a comfortable home, no worries about paying the bills when they arrive, and most importantly we're happy and healthy. I could not care less whether other people look at how I live and judge me as a "failure" because I don't display the outward signs of what they think denotes "success" or not.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Not only those in poorer countries or in manual work. I'm thinking of people that I know.
> One man in his early fifties, very high up in the company not married, no children and why? Because he's in the office from 7:00 until 21:00/ 24:00 every day.
> Another married, 2 children managing director. Works 8:00/ 8:30 - 20:00/ 20:30 every day plus trips abroad every month plus weekend retreats for work 3 - 4 times a year.
> Another, family in Valencia, he works in Madrid Mon - Fri. 2 children. Work 8:00 - 20:00 every day...
> To me these are unsustainable lives that are damaging if not killing these people, and the relationships they have.
> 
> And I agree that we are right to question - to what end? Is having the latest I Pad, home cinema and a car no more than 4 years old "it"?
> Well for many people it is, but personally I think it's a shame...[/QUOTE
> 
> I got into that mindset of wanting 'things' because everyone else had them. Looking back, I can see that clearly now. Now my life isn't based around the work routine, I don't really care about cars, tvs, phones and my life is one great holiday. I like nice clothes but that's for me now, not to show off to others. Ageing bodies need a bit of decoration.
> 
> What matters to me are: my partner, my dogs, my books, my music, my thoughts and MY time. Yes, it cost money to achieve these and yes, we are benefiting from Sandra's long hours and years of worry and stress.
> But the first two are beyond any price and have real value and would mean the same to me however we lived.
> For the first time in my life I am truly happy and considering the years I've lived, that's rather sad.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I agree. I've never been self-employed, but I spent 20 years of my working life as a full time trade union employee, I job I was totally committed to, as were most of my colleagues. The pay and employment conditions were great, but we worked very long hours, evenings and weekends, people basically ate, breathed and slept work and never "switched off". I saw so many marriages break up, people using alcohol as crutch to cope with the stress, a number dying suddenly either weeks before or weeks after their retirement. I knew myself that the job was taking a toll on my mental health and took the opportunity to get out before it was too late and I was totally burnt out. I did work for a number of years after that, but never let the job become all-consuming in that way again.
> 
> Once I was sure we could cope financially, I gave it up altogether, aged 50, and it's the best thing I ever did. No, I don't live in a villa with a pool, drive an expensive car (no car at all, in fact), etc. But we have a comfortable home, no worries about paying the bills when they arrive, and most importantly we're happy and healthy. I could not care less whether other people look at how I live and judge me as a "failure" because I don't display the outward signs of what they think denotes "success" or not.


You were a trade union employee....Lynn, I love youxxxxxx

What union did you work for? Pm me if you don't want to post publicly. I too worked for my union and became a member the day I started work.


----------



## mrypg9

Aron said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But hard work did kill people and still does. Not everyone has work they enjoy, far from it. People in manual occupations have lower life expectancy than those with professional jobs in most countries. Millions of people all over the world labour in atrocious conditions for a pittance.
> 
> 
> 
> With respect Mary, I said hard work never killed anyone who enjoyed their work, and young enough to sustain it.
> There are many fit people in their 70's still wanting to work because they enjoy what they are doing. We employed a 65 year old who was told she was too old to work at school. She worked for us two days a week for 12 years and it gave her a reason to look forward to each week. Sadly she died just at the time we came to Spain aged 102.
> 
> 
> 
> But I did make the distinction between 'enjoyable' and horrible life- destroying work.
> My son enjoys his work, never complains about long hours....but I am not so sure it won't kill him.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> You were a trade union employee....Lynn, I love youxxxxxx
> 
> What union did you work for? Pm me if you don't want to post publicly. I too worked for my union and became a member the day I started work.


I was with NALGO for 15 years then 5 years with UNISON, post-merger. The first 15 years were great, the last 5 were a living hell! My job changed from managing 16 staff all based in one place to managing 51 people (on 4 different sets of conditions of service, some NALGO, some NUPE, some COHSE and some on new UNISON conditions) based in 4 different offices across the North West, and to say the various factions disliked each other would be putting it mildly. Enjoyable it was not.


----------



## Aron

mrypg9 said:


> Aron said:
> 
> 
> 
> But I did make the distinction between 'enjoyable' and horrible life- destroying work.
> My son enjoys his work, never complains about long hours....but I am not so sure it won't kill him.
> 
> 
> 
> None of us really know what is in store for us. They say we are living longer these days, but I know too well the amount of relatively young people, in comparison to me that is who have now gone. Longevity is in your genes, but regarding your son, no parent should live longer than their children. All the time they are growing up, even when they are in Middle Ages, to me they are still my children.
> 
> The lady I mentioned who lived till she was 102 said, you know you are getting old when your daughter goes through the change!
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I was with NALGO for 15 years then 5 years with UNISON, post-merger. The first 15 years were great, the last 5 were a living hell! My job changed from managing 16 staff all based in one place to managing 51 people (on 4 different sets of conditions of service, some NALGO, some NUPE, some COHSE and some on new UNISON conditions) based in 4 different offices across the North West, and to say the various factions disliked each other would be putting it mildly. Enjoyable it was not.


A friend who has worked all his life in trades unionism has just switched from NASUWT to representing senior managers in the NHS, I think it's part of Unison.
He will surely have his work cut out..I know it's the job of union officials to defend workers but what I've read about the NHS lately leads me to think some senior managers are beyond defending.

I have, personally, never tried to defend the indefensible when doing case- work. We were a delivering a public service after all and the public surely have the right to expect certain standards.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> I have, personally, never tried to defend the indefensible when doing case- work. We were a delivering a public service after all and the public surely have the right to expect certain standards.


And telling some members that could be the most difficult part of the job. A female colleague of mine had a knife pulled on her when meeting a member who was on long term sick leave and had to tell him she wouldn't be able to save his job. Thankfully she managed to get out of the house unhurt. I was the person she called for help, in a terrible state. I'll never forget it, it was a Friday afternoon and I was up to my eyes preparing for a Regional Council meeting the next day, but of course I had to drop everything and go out to her. She didn't want to involve the police but I said we had to as the man's wife and children were in the house and could have been in danger because of his mental state. After some hours I had to go back to the office and finish what I was doing, got home about 11pm and was on my way out again at 7am on the Saturday morning to get to Regional Council on time. And people think TU officials have an easy life!


----------



## Madliz

The top five regrets of the dying, compiled by a palliative care nurse:

1. I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.

2. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

3. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings.

4. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.

5. I wish that I had let myself be happier.

I would suggest that all these could be improved if we change the way we work, wouldn't you?


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> And telling some members that could be the most difficult part of the job. A female colleague of mine had a knife pulled on her when meeting a member who was on long term sick leave and had to tell him she wouldn't be able to save his job. Thankfully she managed to get out of the house unhurt. I was the person she called for help, in a terrible state. I'll never forget it, it was a Friday afternoon and I was up to my eyes preparing for a Regional Council meeting the next day, but of course I had to drop everything and go out to her. She didn't want to involve the police but I said we had to as the man's wife and children were in the house and could have been in danger because of his mental state. After some hours I had to go back to the office and finish what I was doing, got home about 11pm and was on my way out again at 7am on the Saturday morning to get to Regional Council on time. And people think TU officials have an easy life!


Some people.. I know better!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Another link from a web I posted a link to earlier listing the stages needed to go through to open a business in Spain. Could go into the FAQ's perhaps?
Starting a Business in Spain - Doing Business - World Bank Group
I wonder if the people who have a business in Spain could tell us if they indeed went through all these steps and how long it really took?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

News about business in Spain

When it comes to finding a job in Europe, not all citizens are born equal. If you are Spanish you have a one in four chance of being unemployed, rising to one in two if you are young. And if you are a young woman in Spain? The odds of finding yourself among the ranks of the unemployed are even higher, at 54.7%. Now however, young Spanish women are finding their own solutions to the crisis, discovering an entrepreneurial streak that has resulted in a record 800,000 businesses being set up by women in the past five years.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/03/spains-jobless-women-become-boss


This looks like it's a way for non EU nationals to come to Spain
INVEST IN SPAIN >> Residence for entrepreneurs

And if you feel like getting involved there's always crowd funding
explained here in English
About us - Crowdfunding, UK fundraising platform for community, business and creative projects | Crowdfunder

Spanish web here
Universo Crowdfunding | Financiación colectiva, micromecenazgo

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/03/spains-jobless-women-become-boss


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Another link from a web I posted a link to earlier listing the stages needed to go through to open a business in Spain. Could go into the FAQ's perhaps?
> Starting a Business in Spain - Doing Business - World Bank Group
> I wonder if the people who have a business in Spain could tell us if they indeed went through all these steps and how long it really took?


We had a business but it was a sole tradership - or that's what it would have been called in the UK. 

At first glance that appears to be info on how to start up a company. 

I would imagine it would be considerably less complex to set up a sole tradership (or partnership) - autonomo in Spain. 

I look forward to comments from anyone who has set up a company.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> We had a business but it was a sole tradership - or that's what it would have been called in the UK.
> 
> At first glance that appears to be info on how to start up a company.
> 
> I would imagine it would be considerably less complex to set up a sole tradership (or partnership) - autonomo in Spain.
> 
> I look forward to comments from anyone who has set up a company.


Well, I'm, autonomo and it's easy for me, but also because I don't have premises nor employees. I always imagined if you had premises it was more difficult because you need more licences. I mean I don't think it's so much because I'm self employed but more because of the size and type of business that it is.
When I was part of the co op academy it was nightmare to get all the licences and we opened long before they were granted as that was the way it went back then


----------



## Sirtravelot

mrypg9 said:


> I think it's noteworthy that for some people their work has been their main focus and interest in life. My son and dil are like that...he has his own company.
> They both work long hours, socialise with people they work with and at work- related functions and their conversation frequently relates to their work in one way or other. My dil works in thefinancial sector too, my son in the IT-'related financial sector.
> By most standards they are very successful..big house in the UK, house in Spain., Aston Martin and other posh cars in the drive
> But their lives revolve around work. Leisure time, friends...all work- related.
> 
> My work life and 'other' life were to a great extent separate, in compartments. I didn't really enjoy my work and I had little in common with the people I worked with. The day I left the building for the last time was one of the greatest of my life.
> 
> I'm finding it hard to find the right words to express what I, want to say and I don't want to sound airy-'fairy but the way we live now seems at times to be a form of slavery in gold chains. This Anglo- Saxon work ethic, living to work, ...is this how life is best lived? Now we are told we must work until seventy. Live to work...or work to live?
> We tend to think that the way we live now is how things have always been but that isn't so. The kind of society we have now, where the market economy rules our lives , is comparatively recent in historical terms.
> It seems we define success by what our work has bought for us. I'm not exempt from this in that my work has bought my pleasant retirement.
> I just think our work- life balance needs a rethink and possible readjustment.
> 
> Sorry if this sounds like waffle...


These are exactly the thoughts I wrestle with all the time in my mind.

I don't know whether to prioritize work or the finer things in life.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

So, after posting a load of negative oops I mean realistic, darn I mean pragmatic stuff about unemployment and Spain in the EU here's something about entrepreurs who have started up businesses recently in Madrid under a new scheme sponsored by Telefónica





Happy Sunday everyone


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I've also found this article which has a lot of useful references in it although ironically it starts off with info about Mondragon which was the shining star in Spanish manufacturing and it was a cooperative. Notice the use of the past tense as, as some of you may remember from a few posts of mine, the coop closed some months ago with job losses all round...
Spain's entrepreneurs carving a new path amid economic crisis | Social Enterprise Network | Guardian Professional


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've also found this article which has a lot of useful references in it although ironically it starts off with info about Mondragon which was the shining star in Spanish manufacturing and it was a cooperative. Notice the use of the past tense as, as some of you may remember from a few posts of mine, the coop closed some months ago with job losses all round...
> Spain's entrepreneurs carving a new path amid economic crisis | Social Enterprise Network | Guardian Professional


This piece was written in January 2013...over a year ago.
It would be interesting to know how some of these start-ups have fared since then.
The idea of co-ops is appealing but history shows that few have been successful in the long term and those that have seem to have radically diverged from their original path, like the UK Co-operative Society.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> This piece was written in January 2013...over a year ago.
> *It would be interesting to know how some of these start-ups have fared since then.*
> The idea of co-ops is appealing but history shows that few have been successful in the long term and those that have seem to have radically diverged from their original path, like the UK Co-operative Society.


Totally agree.
The PP are always quoting figures about how many new businesses have opened in recent years, but of course are very shy about confirming how many are still open after a year, 2 years and 5 years. There are of course figures and they are not very good. I'd be interested to see them, but have done enough "resaerch" this morning!


----------



## Madliz

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, after posting a load of negative oops I mean realistic, darn I mean pragmatic stuff about unemployment and Spain in the EU here's something about entrepreurs who have started up businesses recently in Madrid under a new scheme sponsored by Telefónica
> Business in Spain: WAYRA startup accelerator - YouTube
> 
> Happy Sunday everyone


It's lovely to see help being provided to people with great ideas. For all those interviewed I thought their level of English was really good. Have you been coaching them behind the scenes, PW?


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Totally agree.
> The PP are always quoting figures about how many new businesses have opened in recent years, but of course are very shy about confirming how many are still open after a year, 2 years and 5 years. There are of course figures and they are not very good. I'd be interested to see them, but have done enough "resaerch" this morning!


Me too... I can't cope with late nights/ early mornings anymore and am not ashamed to say that I am, at this late hour, still half- in half- out of bed(sitting on edge) , unshowered, totally unfit to face the world..
Thankfully we have dogs or I'd be in this state all day.
This is definite proof there is no life after death since were my late mother able to communicate from ' beyond' , a thundering voice would have told me to give myself a good shake....

I'm currently reading a piece in The Indie' comparing the French NF and UKIP. Such a shame that NF is so racist as Le Pen is calling for massive state aid to build French industries and for more help for the poor....depending on skin colour, of course.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Madliz said:


> It's lovely to see help being provided to people with great ideas. For all those interviewed I thought their level of English was really good. Have you been coaching them behind the scenes, PW?


No, but I did use that vid in class with my masters students and think I will use it with a small group I have who are the owners of a very successful business which you may know as they have a salon in Torre Espacio. I'll give them a little plug here
FashionKids - Peluquería y Complementos


----------



## Madliz

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, but I did use that vid in class with my masters students and think I will use it with a small group I have who are the owners of a very successful business which you may know as they have a salon in Torre Espacio. I'll give them a little plug here
> FashionKids - Peluquería y Complementos


Indeed I do know them. I'm always happy to see an innovative new business open up and remain there and this business has been going a couple of years already so must be doing something right. Looking at their website shows that they are opening another unit in Sevilla.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Madliz said:


> Indeed I do know them. I'm always happy to see an innovative new business open up and remain there and this business has been going a couple of years already so must be doing something right. Looking at their website shows that they are opening another unit in Sevilla.


Yep, and last week they cancelled class 'cos they were in another european capital!!
I have to say that the owners are not Spanish, but have lived here for more than 10 years and the franchises are normally run by Spaniards


----------



## Pazcat

I think the overall question is loaded a bit, it would depend on many things and there is no easy answer. I'm glad though that I don't have to rely on a business here I can say that much.
Would I start one here hypothetically?
Yes, but it wouldn't be that simple and it wouldn't be a bar, restaurant, place selling cheap handbags and sunnies(although going by the number of storefronts with selling this crap maybe it is the way to go).
I also imagine that there would be all sorts of sociological, bureaucratic and financial hurdles to overcome simply because government, local and otherwise makes it tougher than it needs to be. Mind you these would likely still be hurdles if Spain was in boom.

Still I won't be opening a business here so it's all speculation.


----------



## Lynn R

I said in an earlier post that there are more than half a dozen shoe shops in the main street alone of my town. I went to buy some sandals this morning, and the shop where I'd seen what I wanted was so busy with people waiting to be served I had to go somewhere else and call back later. When I went back there were still 2 other people ahead of me trying on (and buying, not just looking at) shoes. 

So there is still SOME money around (and all the other customers were local Spanish women, not tourists) and people are spending, despite all the doom and gloom in the papers.


----------



## Pazcat

No doubt it varies region to region but you are right. People are still consuming here, go appliance shopping midweek and the shops are busy and they haven't slowed over winter.
It doesn't take much though to see that it clearly hasn't gone well for all as there are plenty of empty shops though. At least rents would be cheap.

Still I think the very least a person needs before starting a business here is the language, especially if you are selling to Spanish people.


----------



## mrypg9

Pazcat said:


> No doubt it varies region to region but you are right. People are still consuming here, go appliance shopping midweek and the shops are busy and they haven't slowed over winter.
> It doesn't take much though to see that it clearly hasn't gone well for all as there are plenty of empty shops though. At least rents would be cheap.
> 
> Still I think the very least a person needs before starting a business here is the language, especially if you are selling to Spanish people.


In the UK, most purchases, even for basics, are made on credit via the life- essential plastic card.

I'm not sure but I think debit cards are the norm in Spain.

As I have often pointed out, a 26% unemployment rate means that 74% are in some kind of work so of course the majority are still consuming. 
But that percentage may have little disposable income after paying for the necessities so consumer confidence as a whole is not high.
Hence the number of closed bars and shops.


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> I said in an earlier post that there are more than half a dozen shoe shops in the main street alone of my town. I went to buy some sandals this morning, and the shop where I'd seen what I wanted was so busy with people waiting to be served I had to go somewhere else and call back later. When I went back there were still 2 other people ahead of me trying on (and buying, not just looking at) shoes.
> 
> So there is still SOME money around (and all the other customers were local Spanish women, not tourists) and people are spending, despite all the doom and gloom in the papers.


Yes we get many shoe shops opening and shutting around us. It's a good product for recessions because everyone needs them, they have an infinite shelf-life, and you don't need to spend that much on fitting out your shop - just a few racks will do. Ofcourse the problem is that everyone else is trying the same thing.

The two things that have taken off in Madrid recentky are cheap gyms (€20/month membership) and cheap pre-prepared food outlets (you choose your meals and heat them up in a microwave).


----------



## Pazcat

mrypg9 said:


> In the UK, most purchases, even for basics, are made on credit via the life- essential plastic card.
> 
> I'm not sure but I think debit cards are the norm in Spain.
> 
> As I have often pointed out, a 26% unemployment rate means that 74% are in some kind of work so of course the majority are still consuming.
> But that percentage may have little disposable income after paying for the necessities so consumer confidence as a whole is not high.
> Hence the number of closed bars and shops.



If I ran a business people could pay however they liked. 

Our bank gave us 3 different cards, with 2 being credit cards we didn't want. "Thankfully" our debit card has a monthly limit so when that is reached you are forced to use the credit card.
I think Spanish banks are catching on.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I said in an earlier post that there are more than half a dozen shoe shops in the main street alone of my town. I went to buy some sandals this morning, and the shop where I'd seen what I wanted was so busy with people waiting to be served I had to go somewhere else and call back later. When I went back there were still 2 other people ahead of me trying on (and buying, not just looking at) shoes.
> 
> So there is still SOME money around (and all the other customers were local Spanish women, not tourists) and people are spending, despite all the doom and gloom in the papers.


This links to the report that I think I posted a couple of days ago about the economic gap between "rich" and "poor" in Spain has grown more than any other country in the OECD in the last year.

If you've got money you've got it and these people are buying. If you know what business to set up and you've got enough money to put in motion then there's a chance. What I'm seeing is a lot of people who don't know what they're dong and they are failing.


----------



## mrypg9

Since I've had time to sit back and reflect on my life I am questioning a lot of things we accept as the 'norm'.
Thirty or so years ago I would have viewed moving away from home to find work as a really Good Thing. Members of my family, all employed at home, moved to Canada, the U.S. and Australia, out of a sense of adventure rather than to find work. Ditto my partner who left home to work in England and Germany. I too would have loved to live abroad but I was too tied to home at that age and satisfied my Wanderlust with lots of long journeys abroad.
The difference now of course that many people don't choose to leave their birthplace, many are obliged to or the alternative is the dole. 
Good for them for energy and enterprise, bad for a society that can't provide employment at home for those who would prefer it.
Home ownership...this has long been an Anglo- Saxon goal. Own your own home and have stability...safe as houses....The economic crisis has shown the emptiness of those words. Evictions, negative equity, reliance on low interest rates...anything but stability.
Then there's the question of what we mean by ownership. In reality, we are a nation of owers, not owners. If you rent then yes, you pay money to someone else for something you will never own. But buying on mortgage means paying up to a third more than you've borrowed in interest to someone else, paying a high percentage of your income in mortgage repayments, not being able to move easily if you lose your job, worry about interest rates etc...
Then if you are unlucky enough to have retired and seen your house as something you could sell to help fund your retirement but are unlucky to have reached retirement age at a time of negative equity....you could end up owing money after a lifetime of scrimping and saving.

Then there is the point often made by economists that our focus on house purchase actually harms the economy as money is tied up in investing in bricks and mortar rather than investing in the economy via the stock market.

When we are working we don't perhaps have time to ask why we do what we are doing. I worked two jobs to buy a house because that was seen as a Good Thing. In my case I suppose it was because part of my life was spent under a different social and economic 'norm', like all people of my age.

Life then was different, worse in some ways, better than others. But in spite of the current adulation of 'choice', imo there was more real choice in those days.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> Yes we get many shoe shops opening and shutting around us. It's a good product for recessions because everyone needs them, they have an infinite shelf-life, and you don't need to spend that much on fitting out your shop - just a few racks will do. Ofcourse the problem is that everyone else is trying the same thing.
> 
> The two things that have taken off in Madrid recentky are cheap gyms (€20/month membership) and cheap pre-prepared food outlets (you choose your meals and heat them up in a microwave).


RE shoe shops, I have noticed a huge surge in Spanish shoes, mostly leather. Madrid was almost overtaken by the Chinese plastic shoe market. Spanish leather shoes were there, but were more expensive and not so many styles were available. The Chinese shoes are still there, especially for youngsters, but there are lots of Spanish alternatives, well priced and good quality. Keep an eye out for them! Here are some examples
Tienda Online de Zapatos de Mujer Wonders

https://www.panamajack.es/home

Callaghan Adaptaction - El zapato más cómodo del mundo


----------



## mrypg9

Another thing about PW's timely reminder of how things really are here and in the UK and many other countries....the yawning gulf between the small percentage of the truly wealthy and the rest of us. Again, although equality has never existed in any society...and tbh, who would wantit to? - this huge differential is a recent phenomenum.
It is much more difficult for a young person of humble origins to climb the ladder these days unless they are willingl to spend every waking hour at work. Even then, ascent isl not guaranteed.
We have moved to a rentier economy where money makes more money than work. 

The way we live isn't fixed and unchangeable. I understand and sympathise with the indignados, ifl not with their methods. I don't want to raise a red flag or man the barricades, far from it.

But I do not accept that the way most people live now is desireable.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> RE shoe shops, I have noticed a huge surge in Spanish shoes, mostly leather. Madrid was almost overtaken by the Chinese plastic shoe market. Spanish leather shoes were there, but were more expensive and not so many styles were available. The Chinese shoes are still there, especially for youngsters, but there are lots of Spanish alternatives, well priced and good quality. Keep an eye out for them! Here are some examples
> Tienda Online de Zapatos de Mujer Wonders
> 
> https://www.panamajack.es/home
> 
> Callaghan Adaptaction - El zapato más cómodo del mundo


I now buy only Spanish footwear. Excellent vfm all round.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> But I do not accept that the way most people live now is desireable.


Neither do I Mary, but I'm thinking maybe you need to take the dogs out for a walk...


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## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> RE shoe shops, I have noticed a huge surge in Spanish shoes, mostly leather. Madrid was almost overtaken by the Chinese plastic shoe market. Spanish leather shoes were there, but were more expensive and not so many styles were available. The Chinese shoes are still there, especially for youngsters, but there are lots of Spanish alternatives, well priced and good quality. Keep an eye out for them! Here are some examples
> Tienda Online de Zapatos de Mujer Wonders
> 
> https://www.panamajack.es/home
> 
> Callaghan Adaptaction - El zapato más cómodo del mundo


I am wearing some Panama Jacks right now. Most comfortable boots I've ever worn. Apparently they are particularly big in Germany.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Neither do I Mary, but I'm thinking maybe you need to take the dogs out for a walk...



I have been waiting for Sandra to put on make-up, do her hair and get dressed so we can do that.
This procedure takes her considerably longer than it does me but I am killing time by posting...


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## mrypg9

Well, we had a lovely walk with the dogs...along a deserted beach then into the campo. We were out for over three hours..Good for them, good for us, especially me.
It won't be long before we can walk on the beach only at sunrise or after dark.

A thought entered my mind: when we wanted our guys to work extra long hours they had to sign a paper to the effect that this was entirely voluntary. This was because the UK had secured an opt-out from the Working Hours Directive, part of the Social Chapter of Maastricht adopted by the Blair Government.

I can't remember the stipulated maximum hours that the Directive stated could be legally worked but for some reason forty-eight comes to mind as a maximum. I am certain that the UK was the only EU state to request an opt-out....so am I right in thinking that Spain was a signatory?

If so, eighty-four hour weeks are illegal. But then we know that for many EU states, rules are there to be cheerfully ignored.


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## chrisnation

*Wha?*



zx10r-Al said:


> Things will change in the UK over time, to become more like Spain. People fly over to the UK, start a business (washing cars is popular), don't pay tax or NI until the end of the financial year where they conveniently go bust or disappear. I'm sure that's how Spain used to be, Brits flying to the costas, opening up a bar, getting loads of money during the summer and then leaving before getting a tax bill. The current Spanish system avoids that, and means that people need some capital behind them, and also need to have researched it well before diving in.


This post is - must be polite - a bit wide of the mark. The car washing brigade is such an infintesimal dot on the economic landscape of the UK as to be as good as invisible. If such a business is based in premises, and most are, it will perforce have to have signed up with the water and lekkie utilities and the biz council tax dept will not be far behind.

In addition, because legit citizens and businesses in UK take such a very dim view of cheating -as opposed to Spain, where it is a way of life - cheats are shopped to the authorities constantly.

Starting and running a biz in UK is extremely simple and increasingly free of the dead hand of beaurocracy. Having only ever been self employed, running businesses as sole trader and Limited, VAT registered and not, PAYE employees and Schedule D contractors, l speak from 40 years' experience.

Nobody wishing to be self employed in UK has any need to watch "Autonomo -The Movie" for any 
reason except entertainment. Anybody wishing to be self employed in Spain must watch it and grit their teeth for the coming duel with the pocket Hitlers and expense.

Everybody in Spain that l have spoken to about starting a biz there has warned me of mountains of 'docament', truculance, intransigence and inconsistency from officials and unreasonable expense. The business l have in mind will be based in the UK and l will arrange all other aspects of my life - residency and so on - to make that work.


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## webmarcos

chrisnation said:


> This post is - must be polite - a bit wide of the mark. The car washing brigade is such an infintesimal dot on the economic landscape of the UK as to be as good as invisible. If such a business is based in premises, and most are, it will perforce have to have signed up with the water and lekkie utilities and the biz council tax dept will not be far behind.
> 
> In addition, because legit citizens and businesses in UK take such a very dim view of cheating -as opposed to Spain, where it is a way of life - cheats are shopped to the authorities constantly.
> 
> Starting and running a biz in UK is extremely simple and increasingly free of the dead hand of beaurocracy. Having only ever been self employed, running businesses as sole trader and Limited, VAT registered and not, PAYE employees and Schedule D contractors, l speak from 40 years' experience.
> 
> Nobody wishing to be self employed in UK has any need to watch "Autonomo -The Movie" for any
> reason except entertainment. Anybody wishing to be self employed in Spain must watch it and grit their teeth for the coming duel with the pocket Hitlers and expense.
> 
> Everybody in Spain that l have spoken to about starting a biz there has warned me of mountains of 'docament', truculance, intransigence and inconsistency from officials and unreasonable expense. The business l have in mind will be based in the UK and l will arrange all other aspects of my life - residency and so on - to make that work.


As someone who runs a business in Spain, I can't say I recognise your digs, although of course you should be better informed of the situation in the UK after running a business there for so long.
What I lose in Autonomo payments (and besides I'm on the lower starting level) I gain far more in lower rent and business tax. I estimate I must be saving over a thousand euros compared to the UK.
I have very little paperwork hassle at all - by the simple measure of using a gestor, the way many Brits would use a book-keeper or accountant. Once a quarter I list my incomings and outgoings on a spreadsheet, and that's about it!
Which is not to say there aren't drawbacks - I'm still reeling from the latest electricity bill, which is "enhanced" by 21% vat.
I'm not even saying you're wrong in choosing to remain in the UK. Some things work better in certain countries than others, and it's certainly the case that it should be easier where you know the language and background. And of course one should take into acount the market demand for the products or services you offer.


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## webmarcos

Oh, and by the way, I have lived for a few years previously in London. The scale of the black economy there is enormous, at least as bad as here in Spain. It really is on a separate scale to the rest of the UK


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## chrisnation

*Black economies*



webmarcos said:


> Oh, and by the way, I have lived for a few years previously in London. The scale of the black economy there is enormous, at least as bad as here in Spain. It really is on a separate scale to the rest of the UK


Last year me and a pal looked at a guest house for sale in Mojacar. We did as much number crunching as poss before my pal went there, from UK, to see the place and continue due diligence. What is the first thing you ask the vendor of a business, after you've been on a tour of the building? "Please will you show me the books". We had warned the agent in advance that we needed to do this. The answer was that there were no books. The place had been run from cash-in-hand for years. 

When my pal complained to the vendor's agent, an Englishman, that time and money had been wasted coming to see a business for which no books existed, the agent ruefully told him that 60% of turnover of businesses in Andalucia was 'on the black'. When my pal discussed this extraordinary statement with his Majorquin brother-in-law (from one of the leading business families in Majorca) he was told that, based on the Majorquin ratio of about 40% black, 60% legit, it was a believable figure. 

I lived and worked in London for 25 years. A distinction must be made between the (possibly) widespread cash economy around the very fringes of business activity - blokes who tour the suburbs offering 'what we've got left on the truck, to do your driveway' or the one l got regularly, 'we've got some lovely leather sofas/three-piece suites in the back of the van' and the turnover of the overwhelming proportion of the economy of London. 

The only occasion l ever came across the cash economy (for more than beer money) was one of 
my own. I'd been paid in cash by a Japanese TV company who had no other way of paying me before they left for Tokyo. I went straight back to my flat where a couple of self employed plumbers were installing a complete hot water/central heating/basins/bathroom rig and settled their account with folding money. I had just enough left - £200 - for a decent bicycle.

In my experience one is far more likey to do a cash deal in rural England that in London. A trailer load of logs for £30, road-mending chipping sweepings for £5/load (which would otherwise have been dumped), casual labour for £6/hr cash ...


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## zenkarma

webmarcos said:


> Oh, and by the way, I have lived for a few years previously in London. The scale of the black economy there is enormous, at least as bad as here in Spain. It really is on a separate scale to the rest of the UK


I don't think the black economy in London is any better or worse than anywhere else in the country. People will always do it when they can get away with it, after all the buyer saves 20% on VAT straight away and the seller saves on paying tax on the earnings. Win, win!

Is it right? I'm not going to comment beyond that it serves the government right for being so greedy on VAT. 20% is a stupidly high amount of tax.

I've said it before—if the government was somewhat more frugal in how they spent tax payers money and more equitable in how they taxed people—people wouldn't try and avoid paying it.

And I'm a born and bred Londoner—lived here all my life.


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## chrisnation

zenkarma said:


> I don't think the black economy in London is any better or worse than anywhere else in the country. People will always do it when they can get away with it, after all the buyer saves 20% on VAT straight away and the seller saves on paying tax on the earnings. Win, win!
> 
> Is it right? I'm not going to comment beyond that it serves the government right for being so greedy on VAT. 20% is a stupidly high amount of tax.
> 
> I've said it before—if the government was somewhat more frugal in how they spent tax payers money and more equitable in how they taxed people—people wouldn't try and avoid paying it.
> 
> And I'm a born and bred Londoner—lived here all my life.


Go to 3dubs.vatlive.com, check out the list of rates by country and see how light UK VAT is copared to many, nothing on food for example.


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