# About Permanent Residence Visas



## DebInFL (Dec 1, 2016)

I'm asking for a friend who wants to move to Mexico, but doesn't want to give up her US citizenship. If she lives the 5 years on the permanent visa and doesn't want to become a Mexican citizen, can she leave for a period of time and then come back and start another 5 years all over again? How long would she have to stay gone?

Thanks! Hope you all are doing well. I'm still planning to become a van dweller, although WHEN is a big question. I'm not sure if I'll be able to renew my lease next year, because my apartment complex has been sold, so we are all up in the air, as the new landlords are probably going to be raising the rent to more than some of us can afford. Right now, I'm living as if I'm not going to be here, trying to get rid of things and save up for a van. If I don't stay here, I may just start van dwelling then, or I may rent a room somewhere for another year so I can save more and be more prepared. 

I'm going to be looking toward taking a trip down to Mexico with my son whenever I do get to van dwelling, to see if maybe we both want to stay as digital nomads. He's sort of tired of the tech scene where he is, and wants to travel a bit, so we'll see. To start, our trip will be him staying a month and me staying six months. I hope to meet some of you while I'm there. I'll probably be based in Guadalajara, where he can fly in and out easily should he choose to return or I to stay longer.

Life is full of changes!


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

You do not ""give up"" you US citizenship, you will have duel citizenship......


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Permanent residency in Mexico is, just like it sounds, permanent. There is nothing in the regulations about having to decide to change that after 5 years.
However, one MAY decide to apply for Mexican citizenship after 5 years on a permanent residency.
Becoming a Mexican permanent resident or a Mexican citizen does not affect your US citizenship. In fact, it costs a lot to renounce your US citizenship, and FYI the US and Eritrea are the only 2 countries in the world that tax their citizens as opposed to their residents. The US considers you a "US person" even if you've never stepped foot in the US, but if, for instance, one of your parents was an American citizen when you were born.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Also, there are no regulations about how long you can be out of Mexico when you have Mex. permanent residency. You could leave for a month every other month if you wanted to, or whatever. There is no need to reapply if you go back to live in the States for awhile.
However, if you wish to become a Mexican citizen, there are regulations as to how long you need to have been physically present in Mexico during the few years leading up to your citizenship application.


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## DebInFL (Dec 1, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies! 

Yes, the U.S. is horrible about taxing people who don't live or work here. It's really ridiculous to have to be taxed by two countries on the same income. The U.S. also makes it very difficult to renounce your citizenship, and I hear they make it hard to even have dual citizenship. This country is getting less and less desirable to live in.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

DebInFL said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> Yes, the U.S. is horrible about taxing people who don't live or work here. It's really ridiculous to have to be taxed by two countries on the same income. The U.S. also makes it very difficult to renounce your citizenship, and I hear they make it hard to even have dual citizenship. This country is getting less and less desirable to live in.


How do they make it hard to have dual citizenship? I never asked the US for permission when I added Mexican citizenship. I doubt that the US even knows I am a Mexican citizen as well. Was I supposed to tell them? Is the NSA going to come knocking on my door at some point?


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

In this increasingly computerized world, they won't need to ask. The days of things like "permanent tourists" living in Mexico and "dual citizenship" for those born in the U.S.A. are numbered.
I understand that the number of U.S. citizens renouncing their status has been increasing in recent years. The cost for doing so is $$high. They luv your tax dollars, so the IRS doesn't want to let you go!


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

DebInFL said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> Yes, the U.S. is horrible about taxing people who don't live or work here. It's really ridiculous to have to be taxed by two countries on the same income.


Oh I know, isn't it terrible that the super rich can't hide their money here, make interest and not declare it like they would have to in American banks? Or work overseas and not declare any income when they send the money back home to their wives?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> In this increasingly computerized world, they won't need to ask. The days of things like "permanent tourists" living in Mexico and "dual citizenship" for those born in the U.S.A. are numbered.


I know of many dual US/Mexican citizens born in the States living here. Why do you think that their status may be in danger?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Deb I think you are confused.

Some US citizen renounce their citizenship in order to benefit ot be under a different tax status in another country. Of course to do that you have to have another nationality otherwise you have no nationality and a big problem.

Other US citizens take on another nationality and become dual or triple citizens..You do not have to give up the US citizenship to take on another nationality. Usually you are considered a national of the country where you live and cannot claim the US citizenship there and when in the US you can claim US citizenship and do not claim Mexican citizenship but you do not give up any nationality.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Zorro2017 said:


> Oh I know, isn't it terrible that the super rich can't hide their money here, make interest and not declare it like they would have to in American banks? Or work overseas and not declare any income when they send the money back home to their wives?


If that's all the IRS was focused on, the super rich hiding money offshore, that would be one thing. But FATCA is about taxing EVERYONE they consider to be a "US person". This includes people who have never set foot in the US, have never applied for a US passport, have ZERO ties (family, homes, etc) to the US and are citizens of other countries.
A person can fall into this category if one of their parents was an American citizen when they were born, even if they were born outside of the US, for instance. They are known as "accidental Americans". And the IRS is coming after them whether they are rich or not. There was a huge upswing in the number of people renouncing their US citizenship because of FATCA (at which point the fee for doing so went from about $400 to $4000)-many of these folks are just working joes who have never had anything to do with the US- they are just trying to protect their meager paychecks and savings.
If you are interested in reading more on this, check out Issac Brock Society online.


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## DebInFL (Dec 1, 2016)

lagoloo said:


> In this increasingly computerized world, they won't need to ask. The days of things like "permanent tourists" living in Mexico and "dual citizenship" for those born in the U.S.A. are numbered.
> I understand that the number of U.S. citizens renouncing their status has been increasing in recent years. The cost for doing so is $$high. They luv your tax dollars, so the IRS doesn't want to let you go!


Yes, I just read an article about that the other day, and how they are cracking down on wealthy people doing it to avoid taxes.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

The worst of it is that the amount subject to reporting has not risen since way back when ten grand was a serious amount of money. Inflation has reduced the value of that significantly. But, who can expect fairness and logic to influence regulations?


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## DebInFL (Dec 1, 2016)

citlali said:


> Deb I think you are confused.
> 
> Some US citizen renounce their citizenship in order to benefit ot be under a different tax status in another country. Of course to do that you have to have another nationality otherwise you have no nationality and a big problem.
> 
> Other US citizens take on another nationality and become dual or triple citizens..You do not have to give up the US citizenship to take on another nationality. Usually you are considered a national of the country where you live and cannot claim the US citizenship there and when in the US you can claim US citizenship and do not claim Mexican citizenship but you do not give up any nationality.


So what would be the benefit of having Mexican citizenship? I know they have some form of universal health care, and you would be able to work, but otherwise, what is the benefit? In my case, the benefit would be that I'm self-employed and don't want to pay double taxes. I already pay double taxes in the U.S. from being self-employed. 

I don't make much money. In fact, one year I had a bad year and filed owing the IRS $1,000 and they wrote and told me they had decided I did not make enough money to pay them. I paid them anyway, because I know that the interest would be adding up. NO penalties, since they said I shouldn't pay, but the interest is worse than one of those secured credit cards! So I paid it off in a year, along with my current taxes, and got it out of the way.

Now that I'm semi-retired, I make only about $1500 a month from work and social security, and STILL have to pay double FICA taxes. It's absurd. I don't make enough to get one of those humongous tax breaks they just passed.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

You don't get double taxed on earnings between Canada, US, and Mexico. There is a tax treaty. I own a business in Mexico and pay taxes on this in Mexico, and also report the earnings in Canada. Canada deducts the % of taxes I have paid in Mexico and taxes me on the balance calculated for my tax bracket. So if I pay 3% taxes in Mexico, and am in a 15% tax bracket in Canada, they adjust that to 12%.
Luckily I don't earn enough to actually have to pay taxes in Canada after I get my Canadian tax deductions.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

surabi said:


> If that's all the IRS was focused on, the super rich hiding money offshore, that would be one thing. But FATCA is about taxing EVERYONE they consider to be a "US person". This includes people who have never set foot in the US, have never applied for a US passport, have ZERO ties (family, homes, etc) to the US and are citizens of other countries.
> A person can fall into this category if one of their parents was an American citizen when they were born, even if they were born outside of the US, for instance. They are known as "accidental Americans". And the IRS is coming after them whether they are rich or not. There was a huge upswing in the number of people renouncing their US citizenship because of FATCA (at which point the fee for doing so went from about $400 to $4000)-many of these folks are just working joes who have never had anything to do with the US- they are just trying to protect their meager paychecks and savings.
> If you are interested in reading more on this, check out Issac Brock Society online.


I'm by no means a fan of the IRS but the number of people who have never set foot in the US pales in comparison to the millions who would be hiding income in the form of bank interest overseas. Most expats keep very little in Mexican banks, not enough to worry about the tax.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

The advantages of acquiring Mexican citizenship are primarily: You can serve in the military (for the young'uns), you can vote in elections, be a political activist if you wish, and you can own property (in the same manner as in the rest of Mexico) in the zone near the beaches where you would otherwise have to have an intermediary, such as a bank. I am not sure if you can will such property to others or whether there is a time limit to such "ownership".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I became a Mexican citizen because I know for a fact after living all of my adult life as an expat that the laws about whatever visa you re under can change at the drop of a hat, being a citizen of a country protects you from that type of changes..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

lagoloo said:


> The advantages of acquiring Mexican citizenship are primarily: You can serve in the military (for the young'uns), you can vote in elections, be a political activist if you wish, and you can own property (in the same manner as in the rest of Mexico) in the zone near the beaches where you would otherwise have to have an intermediary, such as a bank. I am not sure if you can will such property to others or whether there is a time limit to such "ownership".





citlali said:


> I became a Mexican citizen because I know for a fact after living all of my adult life as an expat that the laws about whatever visa you re under can change at the drop of a hat, being a citizen of a country protects you from that type of changes..


I would mention a few other minor advantages I have found of being a citizen.

The voter ID card is a simple identification that is accepted for everything with no discussion.
There is a discount on property taxes for those of a certain age.
I can get a library card without a cosigner.
With the ability to vote, I am more interested in politics and follow it more.
When departing the country, there is no need to check in with migracion; when returning there is no need to fill out an immigration form.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> I became a Mexican citizen because I know for a fact after living all of my adult life as an expat that the laws about whatever visa you re under can change at the drop of a hat, being a citizen of a country protects you from that type of changes..


Helpful food for thought, citlali. I have been thinking of becoming a citizen but never considered your comment as a good reason for doing so.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

But on the other hand (and there's always an other hand):

https://www.investopedia.com/articl...advantages-disadvantages-dual-citizenship.asp

Personally, my spouse and I traveled the road to getting Mexican citizenship several years ago, paid a pile of fees and used a local lawyer in the process. We arrived at a stone wall in the form of a bureaucrat with a speech impediment who obviously was not a fan of old gringos. He administered a "conversational language" level test and between his accent and both of our hearing impairments, we failed. Our lawyer said we'd be okay if we went to Mexico City for the approval process. Not that easy for us at this point in time and we gave up. 

If the govt. decides to make life hell for its permanente status residents, we'll leave. I very much doubt this will happen, since I see no motivation for it and I can't waste the energy worrying about it. I've much bigger things to worry about.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

If I were a US citizen I could go back whenever I wanted to, now I cannot, I also would not have 30% of my income withheld for months ...
I am at an age when picking up and leaving is not what I want to do and having the citizenship here is a peace of mind. I do not want to go home to France, would have to reapply for a green card in the States which would take time so being a citizen is easy for me and besides I have zero desire to live there either..
I speak so the test was no big deal for me and you cannot underestimate the reaction here when you present your ID card.. that resolves many questions and problems.
That ID card is a magic card, you only know its value when you are obviously foreign and present it as an ID.. it is very interesting to see the reaction.
Being a citizen gives me a peace of mind I do not get with the " permanent visa" which is as permanent as the government want it to be, and government change.. Do not have to worry about the paperwork when leaving the country either.. to each its own..

Gringal is there is an exodus of foreigners you may find out that leaving is not as easy as you think.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Citlali: "Gringal is there is an exodus of foreigners you may find out that leaving is not as easy as you think."

Would you please expand on that statement? What difficulties would you foresee? 

I think it's a good thing to become a citizen of the country you intend to spend your life in. I tried.

I do realize that if the govt. decided to drive expats away by new laws, it would result in a huge hassle and financial loss for me, but as a descendant of U.S. immigrants who heard the stories of how they had to leave everything behind in the process of leaving their home country, I accept that this could happen and can live with it. That's one reason we leave our savings in a U.S. financial institution. No matter where one settles, a "Plan B" and sometimes, a "C" or "D"is needed.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> But on the other hand (and there's always an other hand):
> 
> https://www.investopedia.com/articl...advantages-disadvantages-dual-citizenship.asp
> 
> ...


Shame on that bureaucrat with the speech impediment! Was there no way to appeal his unjust verdict?


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Thanks for the thought, but I wouldn't have known where to start. The Mexican lawyer who went with us to the office in Guadalajara agreed that his speech was difficult for a native Spanish speaker to understand. Our regular lawyer who started this process had no ideas on that, either, and that's why he suggested going to Mexico city, where the "conversational Spanish" was not required for older gringos.

So far, being "permanente" for so long has enough perks, so it's okay.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Regardless of what goes on NOB there is one thing that Mexico is fond of, and that is American dollars, from money spent here on vacations, to homes, goods and taxes. I don't see anything ever happening to jeopardize this income by ejecting Americans who are permanent residents. The repercussions would be far reaching should this happen. Think of the revenue that would be lost if every expat left and the cancellations of vacations by American who would feel not wanted in this country. 

If so, there are worse things that could happen than moving back close to the grand kids.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Zorro2017 said:


> Regardless of what goes on NOB there is one thing that Mexico is fond of, and that is American dollars, from money spent here on vacations, to homes, goods and taxes. I don't see anything ever happening to jeopardize this income by ejecting Americans who are permanent residents. The repercussions would be far reaching should this happen. Think of the revenue that would be lost if every expat left and the cancellations of vacations by American who would feel not wanted in this country.
> 
> If so, there are worse things that could happen than moving back close to the grand kids.


That's a nice thought for you, Zorro, but I have no grandkids to move back to. If I had to leave Mexico and return to the States, I would end up having a very bleak life. Maybe I should look into becoming a Mexican citizen in the near future.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> That's a nice thought for you, Zorro, but I have no grandkids to move back to. If I had to leave Mexico and return to the States, I would end up having a very bleak life. Maybe I should look into becoming a Mexican citizen in the near future.


Or go further south. :thumb:


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Zorro2017 said:


> Or go further south. :thumb:


To Panama! ¡No, gracias!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The guy has a lisp and a really bad attitude, I did not have problems understanding him but I can see how his speaking fast like the Tapatios do and the lisp would throw people for a loop.... I just found out he turned down a friend who is fluent in Spanish and has lived in Latin America most of his life... My friend was with a woman who did not speak Spanish well and had problems understand her, he tried to help her so he was told you no and the woman was turned down as well..
Same thing happens to Mexicans when they apply for visas to teh US maybe this guy was turned down that way and is getting back at people that way.. I am not a US citizen but my husband is.. so who knows..
For some reason he liked me but gave hell to my husband about his Spanish but it was too late as my husband had already been approved.. I think he enjoys turning down people.. he is really a piece of work.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Citlali: It's nice to know we weren't alone in our rejection. The man seemed "full of himself", to put it mildly. I like to think the best of people until they prove otherwise, but his hostility was unprovoked and very evident. It was very disappointing to have that experience after having spent good money and time reaching that point. But such things are just another tope on the highway of life, si?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes he has a very bad attitude ,I also think there is feuding in that department.. Citlali the woman is super nice and lenient and that drive the little guy up the wall.. Not sure if she is the boss or not but he does everything to make her look bad and criticize her. 
After the interview with him we went down to get a passport and something happened to show me that the downstairs is fighting with the upstairs as well.
I spoke Spanish to the guy where my husband had to apply for the passport and he insisted in speaking English and was super nice to my husband insisting that he spoke English although it was not allowed in the department. Then he told us to take a seat and 3 people showed up.. He told them we did not speak Spanish and should have never been approved.. 
The boss asked what was going on and I told him I had no idea since we did not speak anyone to speak English to us. I told the boss that my native language was French and not English and did not need any help then the boss agreed we did not need anyone speaking English and that we were fine and that my husband needed a few more classes and needed to practice..
I had become a citizen a year ahead so it would be easier for my husband to get in. and it worked but it was obvious to me that there were two sides in the department: one side that was lenient and wanted to accept more foreigners and the other side that was against foreigners becoming citizens. One side was out to make the other side look bad.
I think people get caught up in the internal politics of the government whether they speak Spanish or not.. My friend is fluent in Spanish , teaches it and had a career with the State Dpt in Latin America so turning him down made no sense whatsoever,


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> To Panama! ¡No, gracias!


Belize?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I would move to Guatemala before I would move to Belize..


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

I think if, and that is* a really big if*, Mexico ever decided to yank permanent residency they could just as well yank your citizenship as it was granted by their government as well.

This would be tantamount to the USA yanking the legal residency of aliens who applied and were approved and granted residency, not going to happen unless war is declared, not likely. 

Remittances are at an all time high. Last year, Mexico received $27 billion in remittances -- a record high and far more than what the country got from its oil exports, $18.7 billion, according to Mexico's central bank. The vast majority of remittances sent to Mexico come from the U.S. and they support millions of low-income families in Mexico. 

President Trump could make it harder for Maldonado and millions of other Mexicans in the U.S. to send money home. During his campaign, he threatened to tax remittances to pay for the wall. In January, after being elected, he hinted at it again.

While Trump hasn't addressed remittances since taking office, the threat is still very real. On Saturday, Mexico's finance minister, Jose Antonio Meade, defended the free flow of remittances at the G20 summit in Germany, arguing they're a critical component for economic growth in developing countries.

Maldonado says a tax on remittances would spell trouble for Mexico.

"If Trump makes it more difficult for people to send money to Mexico, there will be more poverty in Mexico," says Maldonado, 33. Now a dual citizen, she's lived in the U.S. for 11 years. She uses an app called Remitly to send money home.

Remittances have helped alleviate some poverty in Mexico. In 1995, the first full year after the trade agreement NAFTA became law, Mexicans only sent $3.6 billion home. Today, it's catapulted to about eight times that amount.

Over the same period, Mexico's poverty level has fallen. In 1994, there were 9.2 million Mexicans living in poverty. Today that figure stands at 3.8 million, according to the World Bank.

Mexico remittances: I send money home to Mexico to support family - Mar. 20, 2017

Do you really think Mexico wants to poke this cash cow in the rear?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Zorro2017 said:


> Belize?


Even less appealing than Panama to me!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> . . .
> I speak so the test was no big deal for me and you cannot underestimate the reaction here when you present your ID card.. that resolves many questions and problems.
> That ID card is a magic card, you only know its value when you are obviously foreign and present it as an ID.. it is very interesting to see the reaction.


I speak Spanish well, so taking a test should not be a problem for me either. Re the IFE card, though I don't think I look Mexican (several times I have been asked if I am French!), I have often been asked for the IFE ID in stores and government offices. Then I have to explain that I am not Mexican and show them my RP credential in lieu of what they were asking for.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> If I were a US citizen I could go back whenever I wanted to, now I cannot, I also would not have 30% of my income withheld for months ...
> I am at an age when picking up and leaving is not what I want to do and having the citizenship here is a peace of mind. I do not want to go home to France, would have to reapply for a green card in the States which would take time so being a citizen is easy for me and besides I have zero desire to live there either..
> I speak so the test was no big deal for me and you cannot underestimate the reaction here when you present your ID card.. that resolves many questions and problems.
> That ID card is a magic card, you only know its value when you are obviously foreign and present it as an ID.. it is very interesting to see the reaction.
> ...


I agree about the value of a Mexican ID card. I also consistently get a reaction when they discover that I have a voter ID card. It is fun to see. I also agree that citizenship is a much more secure status that holding a visa. It is much simpler for Mexico to change visa rules as they have several times in the past, than it is to suddenly disenfranchise all naturalized citizens.

Finally, a comment on Iagoloo's experience. My Spanish is more or less functional but nobody would accuse me of speaking with a decent accent or correct grammar. I dealt with SRE on my own and they never asked about my speaking ability. In fact I tried to give them a certificate from a Spanish class and they had no interest. However, my impression, and it is only that, I have no concrete data, is that if you go to government agencies on your own, they are more tolerant than if you have a native speaker agent acting for you. I don't know what their thinking is, but I have found lots of different agencies very tolerant of my less than good Spanish. They will repeat things, tolerate me making the same mistake multiple times because I didn't understand something, etc. I wonder if Iagoloo and her husband would have had a different experience without a representative. Of course, the downside of not having an agent is that you have to figure out for yourself what it is that they are asking for. I found that a good way to improve my Spanish, but it can be painful.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

TundraGreen , I agree with everyone of your points especially about having a helper with you. I lives in England and Germany before living in the States and Mexico so I have been an expat since 67 and have seen a few changes to visas in my life and being a citizen protects you from the changes.. Yes they could start going after the naturalized citizens but it is a lot less likely . A few more years of Trump and things could change big time between the two countries.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

We have both taken multiple Spanish classes, all the way from three intensive (all day classes) weeks of Warren Hardy in SMA and three rounds of classes offered by the local Lake Chapala Society and have the computer learning programs, too, so we aren't the expats who don't even try. Practicing our Spanish around Lake Chapala is largely limited since so many people are bi-lingual and seem to prefer practicing their English on US.

It would be interesting to know the alternate scenario if we had arrived without a native speaker to help. I doubt we could have found the right office on our own...but in any case, what's done is done. It lies in the realm of "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

On the political problems between the U.S. and Mexico: we expected much more of a backlash from Mexicans after the last election. I guess they are more tolerant of us than we realized. I don't know about the feelings toward expats if the U.S administration escalates it's negative attitudes and actions re Mexico. A crystal ball would helpful at this point. Got one?


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## cienfuegos (Dec 13, 2017)

Yes, they may...the US government is as nefarious as can be... citizens are just sharecropper\package donkeys as far as Washington is concerned.


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