# Looking to move to spain



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Could someone give me some advice about moving after Brexit.i was in the middle of buying a property but thwarted by covid.i was looking to retire to spain.live off state pension and couple private and savings.its a minefield re tax..and having an income.was looking to become a resident eventually.any advice appreciated thanks.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You will now need a visa to live in Spain as British citizen longer than 90 days in 180. The most appropriate is non-lucrative visa, which requires income of 27,115.20 euro a year and private medical insurance with no exclusions and co-pay (excess).


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Joppa said:


> You will now need a visa to live in Spain as British citizen longer than 90 days in 180. The most appropriate is non-lucrative visa, which requires income of 27,115.20 euro a year and private medical insurance with no exclusions and co-pay (excess).


So you can't live there unless you can show income 27k?


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Solcam said:


> So you can't live there unless you can show income 27k?


I dont know the amounts, but sounds about right. Obviously before brexit things were very different but now, UK citizens are third country so must show that they have enough income to support themselves and not be a burdon on the state, for the same reason you must have the private health care in place with absolutely no copayments (excess), and no exclusions (often difficult or very expensive if you do happen to have any pre-existing conditions or are of retirement age. I believe that the S1 system cannot be used anymore unless you were covered by the withdrawal agreement.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> So you can't live there unless you can show income 27k?


In a nutshell, yes, for the usual non-lucrative/retirement visa

The visa options are here Visas (FAQ)

You'd need to apply for & be issued with a visa before coming to Spain.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

27,115.20 euro is made up of four times the Spanish minimum income for 2021 (for triggering social security payment etc) of 6,778.80 euro, which is the visa requirement.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

That's put the kybosh on my plans.hopefuly things could change in future.with how many brits live in spain


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Solcam said:


> That's put the kybosh on my plans.hopefuly things could change in future.with how many brits live in spain


Unfortunately, unless the UK decide to rejoin the EU or make an agreement to allow super simple entry to the UK for Spanish (basically bring back freedom of movement) then I highly doubt it will change. It´s a shame for so many like yourself that all those who wanted Brexit didn´t think about the effects it would have on people. But, as someone said on here the other day, the days of just rocking up with a suitcase and staying if you like it are long gone thanks to brexit. 

You talk about "how many brits live in Spain". Keep in mind that all those who are (legally and correctly) living here and were registered before 31st December last year are not affected in any way by the income requirements. The Spanish Gov (unlike the UK) simply adopted a declaration system which was as simple as a) do nothing if you already registered, b) pop along to get a swanky new id card if you wanted one (optional), or c) if you were not registered,fill in a simple registration before 31st december and you can stay forever. None of this "settled status" and prooving everything that the UK brought in. So they have no reason to change anything for those already here who are beneficiaries of the withdrawel agreement.

But their generosity was until the end of the tranition period. Now it´s over, anyone from the UK is seen in the same way as someone from the US, China, or any other country outside of the EU


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Believe a couple Scandinavian countries can stay as long as they want


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Solcam said:


> Believe a couple Scandinavian countries can stay as long as they want


Yes, Norway for example is part of the EEA and has freedom of movement. The UK were offered a Norway style deal and several other variations along the way which would have allowed that but they rejected it because they believe that the wonderful thing called FOM is a bad thing and they dont want to let the europeans in.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Hello to 90 days of long breaks etc and question at passport control


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Solcam said:


> Hello to 90 days of long breaks etc and question at passport control


Well, there is nothing stopping you buying a house. There is nothing stopping you having up to 90 days in any 180 day period. You shouldn´t face any awkward questions for that as its totally OK. Of course, your passport will be stamped as a non resident so the 90 days is strict because probably if you over stay then you wont be allowed back again!

I did hear that talks are ongoing... maybe the 90 day gets extended... to account for the "swallows" who do spend winters here and summers in the UK etc. That MAY change yes. But I dont see the income requirements for permanent residency changing much, if at all.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

xicoalc said:


> I did hear that talks are ongoing... maybe the 90 day gets extended... to account for the "swallows" who do spend winters here and summers in the UK etc. That MAY change yes. But I dont see the income requirements for permanent residency changing much, if at all.


The British Consul for Malaga and the Canaries said a few days ago she knows nothing about ongoing discussions on immigration and length of stay with Spain. Well, UK allows in visitors for 6 months, so there is a room for negotiation I suppose on the ground of comparability, but nothing is being negotiated at the present time and I can't see anything changing this year.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Understand that...but 27k a year income to a retired person seems excessive..coming from a gloomy lockdown place in Essex things can only get better.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Yes I believe a group is also being set up called the 180.....etc etc to ask for parity with Europeans visiting uk


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

True, there is room for negotiation. But it's understandably not high on the Spanish government's priority list at the moment.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Solcam said:


> Understand that...but 27k a year income to a retired person seems excessive..coming from a gloomy lockdown place in Essex things can only get better.


It does sound a lot of money, but I believe it’s actually more if you want to relocate to the U.K. from overseas. These figures have always been the case for 3rd country citizens plus im not sure if you need private healthcare now as I’m unsure if the S1 still applies to new applicants, someone else will know for sure


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Understand that...but 27k a year income to a retired person seems excessive..coming from a gloomy lockdown place in Essex things can only get better.


It's the same figure for anyone from any third country applying for the visa. Lots move to Spain every year on that visa.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> It does sound a lot of money, but I believe it’s actually more if you want to relocate to the U.K. from overseas. These figures have always been the case for 3rd country citizens plus im not sure if you need private healthcare now as I’m unsure if the S1 still applies to new applicants, someone else will know for sure


Yes, private healthcare is required. 

The S1 will be issued only to those covered under the WA, that is those already resident before the end of 2020.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

xabiaxica said:


> It's the same figure for anyone from any third country applying for the visa. Lots move to Spain every year on that visa.


Understand that.thanks bit frustrating that 7 weeks ago it wasnt like that.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Understand that.thanks bit frustrating that 7 weeks ago it wasnt like that.


5 weeks ago I think. 

But we knew it was going to be that way since June 2016.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Oh right.so the last 4 years and a pandemic mid purchase have made it strtfrwrd .have had no post for 5 weeks.can you imagine trying to purchase a property whilst out of the country and get residencia in the last year.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Oh right.so the last 4 years and a pandemic mid purchase have made it strtfrwrd .have had no post for 5 weeks.can you imagine trying to purchase a property whilst out of the country and get residencia in the last year.


You don't have to own property to move to Spain. I do feel for you having your dreams dashed, but that's Brexit. The only thing I can see changing it is the UK re-joining the EU at some time in the future.


Yes, the pandemic this past year has complicated things, but many many managed to get in during the few months from June when the borders opened & the closure (in Nov?) to those coming from the UK. I personally - as in face to face - know three families / couples who made it. One already owned property, the others found somewhere to rent so that they could move here quickly. At least one of those couples brought their plans forward by a few years in order to beat the deadline.

Before March (when the lockdown started) last year though, it was almost as simple as jumping on a plane.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

xabiaxica said:


> You don't have to own property to move to Spain. I do feel for you having your dreams dashed, but that's Brexit. The only thing I can see changing it is the UK re-joining the EU at some time in the future.
> Yes, the pandemic this past year has complicated things, but many many managed to get in during the few months from June when the borders opened & the closure (in Nov?) to those coming from the UK. I personally - as in face to face - know three families / couples who made it. One already owned property, the others found somewhere to rent so that they could move here quickly. At least one of those couples brought their plans forward by a few years in order to beat the deadline.
> Before March (when the lockdown started) last year though, it was almost as simple as jumping on a plane.


Me included.
Came to Spain in September for two weeks, during which booked rental property for a year, got on padrón and applied for residency. Returned at the end of October, gave fingerprint etc for residency document, exchanged driving licence and picked up residency document (TIE) and Spanish driving licence in January. Just waiting for social security number so that I can register for national health scheme.


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Its crazy that anyone is now complaining because they had no time with brexit. As xabiachica said, we knew in 2016. If anyone was on the process of buying a house it didn't stop because of covid. Lawyers were working. Powet of eterny existed, even application for residency could have been done last year with a POE.

No british person was "SUDDENLY" blocked because of brexit or covid. There were always ways.

Deadline passed 
Ship sailed


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Solcam said:


> Oh right.so the last 4 years and a pandemic mid purchase have made it strtfrwrd .have had no post for 5 weeks.can you imagine trying to purchase a property whilst out of the country and get residencia in the last year.


We moved here in August, was supposed have been late May. Had ferries cancelled, moved to different ports, van rental company went bust. Couldn't bring my son over to help, because he would have needed to isolate on return and would not have been paid by his employer. 
Had to move out of our rental in the Uk and bed hopped for 2 months because we were homeless..

BUT.

Have now settled, residencia is on going, submitted in early November (have submitted paperwork, had acceptance, now just waiting for the fingerprint bit), gave my driving licence up to an agent in mid Nov and I expect a Spanish one to arrive back sometime in the next few months.

No hassle really, already owned a property but I know of at least 4 other couples and a couple of single people who arrived around the same time and they got sorted as well. 

You need a clear plan, you don't even have to be here to purchase (we weren't it was all done with POA to the solicitor because my day job took me all over Europe.) 
In fact the day we 'exchanged' here in this part of the Costa Blanca I was in Barcelona sorting the Cacoalat pallet wrapper out. 

Truth is you don't need the €24 k to live on, its just a figure thats needed to show financial independence.
You can and many of us do live on a pension. In fact if you have a Uk old age pension and a small private one you would live OK (if you are living on it now in the Uk, theres no difference)

Therefore and I may be wrong here but.....

If you are selling a property to move over, I can't see how you would not have lets say €30,000 available to stick somewhere. Possibly more.
And Im assuming here, because you have to apply for the visa before you arrive, that money is Ok in a British Bank?
So you rent for a couple of years (or if you like the area buy a small place) while your capital is still sat there.
Do the time until you get your permanent residency and then move the money over and go mad....

We originally planned for 2023 and the above was our scenario (without the selling of a property though)

Many can still do it. And many already have from the US, Canada, China etc. 
Don't give up you just need to have a plan and see if its doable.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Glad you got that off your chest.


Barriej said:


> We moved here in August, was supposed have been late May. Had ferries cancelled, moved to different ports, van rental company went bust. Couldn't bring my son over to help, because he would have needed to isolate on return and would not have been paid by his employer.
> Had to move out of our rental in the Uk and bed hopped for 2 months because we were homeless..
> 
> BUT.
> ...


Thanks for your help...I thought you had to have a yearly income of 27k...I will make better plans in future...just thought I would have had if done before Brexit...and working in uk as key worker.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Glad you got that off your chest.
> 
> Thanks for your help...I thought you had to have a yearly income of 27k...I will make better plans in future...just thought I would have had if done before Brexit...and working in uk as key worker.


You do now have to show a yearly income of just over 27.000€ in order to secure the visa. It really doesn't matter that it's possible to actually live on far less. Possibly a figure of over 31.600€ if the Spanish Consulate in London uses the '14 pagas' figure as some consulates do. The requirement is an annual income of 4 x IPREM 

At renewal after the first year you have to show enough for two years...


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Its important to realise that it is a yearly income that needs to be shown and not simply a block deposit. In other words while the officer may see 30.000 euros they can ask how that is earned and how it can be repeated for preceding year. If they meant 30.000 deposit it would say that in the rules but it specifically says income. Ask an American or Canadian who lives in Europe


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm curious about this (although it doesn't affect me). 
So if in the first application the income is demonstrated and a 12 month visa is issued, the legal resident can purchase a house or apartment.
When renewing the visa, is the fact that they have a property in Spain taken into account? Or do they need to still show the same level of income despite being a property owner?

I know that the "golden visa" is based on property ownership, but if the visa applicant doesn't reach that magic 500,000€ level of property investment, is it simply ignored?


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Thanks for the good news


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

So in a nutshell if u can't show income of 27k for rest of your life or have 500k golden Visa you can't emigrate get Visa and can stay for 90 days in 180.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Solcam said:


> So in a nutshell if u can't show income of 27k for rest of your life or have 500k golden Visa you can't emigrate get Visa and can stay for 90 days in 180.


After 5 years you get permanent residency and don't have to show income.


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Its important to realise that it is a yearly income that needs to be shown and not simply a block deposit. In other words while the officer may see 30.000 euros they can ask how that is earned and how it can be repeated for preceding year. If they meant 30.000 deposit it would say that in the rules but it specifically says income. Ask an American or Canadian who lives in Europe



Im going to play devils advocate here. Don't shoot me 

This is not a theory and I will explain at the end.

So. I sell my house in the Uk (in a previous Spanish tax year) and stick all the money (lets say £150,000) in a bank. 
I go to my interview for my visa and say. 'Hi Mr Visa man, I have £150,000 in the bank and I will use that money as income. Is that acceptable?'

Im going to say Yep I think it might be. Now if it were me, I would then take my visa and rock up here in Spain, live on my meagre Uk old age pension and maybe the odd sub from the pot (because I already do in the Uk). Forget or not bother to move £2000 a month because I don't need the money.

So at the renewal, I do the same thing. Cant see a problem, we are here in Spain now and there will be a different person to talk to.

And I know this how??? I have a Canadian friend who has already done this.. 
The figure expressed as a monthly income gives no reference as to where it should come from. 

This was to have been my plan if we had waited until 2022-23 to move over.

Thats my last post on this thread. 
Ive got seeds to sow for the veg patch and some artwork that wont paint itself. And a silver Bee to finish making.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I'm curious about this (although it doesn't affect me).
> So if in the first application the income is demonstrated and a 12 month visa is issued, the legal resident can purchase a house or apartment.
> When renewing the visa, is the fact that they have a property in Spain taken into account? Or do they need to still show the same level of income despite being a property owner?
> 
> I know that the "golden visa" is based on property ownership, but if the visa applicant doesn't reach that magic 500,000€ level of property investment, is it simply ignored?


I should imagine that owning a house wont mean that you dont need to show the required income after 1st year. In other words owning a property is ignored. You have to convince them each year that you will have required amount. In effect you would really need to have 27 000 x 5 ( 135,000) if you were to really convince them because you could be checked even after 4 years if immigration were being vigilant. Are there no Americans or Canadians here who obviously will have experience of all this. There was a poster called Elyias ( or similar) who was American who posted alot about these things he lived in the north I think?


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Barriej said:


> Im going to play devils advocate here. Don't shoot me
> 
> This is not a theory and I will explain at the end.
> 
> ...


That I would imagine would suffice provided the money remained in a Spanish account ( dont think you get 100% protection and Spanish banks come and go!!!) because you can sometimes get a random immigration check. Either way it all boils down to having a big pot of money and not just a state pension ( even if you can live off it). Now we all start to be a bit more empathetic with immigrants and why life sometimes feels unjust


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

My understanding is that it's 'resources' you need which can be cash in the bank or income but if income it will need to be from a secure ongoing source which in reality means pensions.

For the initial year visa it's €27k (€34k for a couple) but after that the visa is renewed for two further periods of two years to bring you to five so for the 2nd and 4th year if you're relying on cash then you will need to show not €27k/€34k but €54k/€68k each time.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Doesn't look like many brits be living the dream of place in the sun .apart from those there already.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Doesn't look like many brits be living the dream of place in the sun .apart from those there already.


Only the 'rich' ones. Certainly it's out of reach for anyone living on a state pension.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Could be quite a dig to spanish economy as years go by.property money spent by experts.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solcam said:


> Could be quite a dig to spanish economy as years go by.property money spent by experts.


Afraid not. Only 2% of property in Spain is British owned. If Brits stopped buying it would hardly be noticed.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Expats


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Solcam said:


> Doesn't look like many brits be living the dream of place in the sun .apart from those there already.


And that will be part of the legacy that Brexit will leave. However you might measure it, the fact that its adult population decided that restricting the opportunity for both themselves and the children to experience the pleasure of participating and living on a wonderful slice of landmass no more than a few hours away was worth losing in order to stare at " a we are better than you" banner in the Daily Mail on a grey wet Monday will forever mark its gravestone


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

You seem to be getting quite a lot of joy giving out bad news.....think if I'd have the good fortune to relocate I'd be enjoying the lifestyle rather than on phone.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

None of us get joy out of Brexit. 

Nor out of correcting mis-conceptions. 

It is what it is though.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Solcam said:


> Could be quite a dig to spanish economy as years go by.property money spent by experts.


 The Russians and Scandanavians are the new Brits now.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Latest figures I can find are from 2018.

Residential sales in 2018 to foreigners accounted for 13.6% of all sales, but of those, only 8% were sold to British buyers (so they bought way less than 2% of the total stock sold), the other 92% of the 13.6 went mainly to French, German and Swedish buyers.

Contrary to popular belief Russian and Chinese purchasors are way down with less than 1%.









Los 15 mejores portales inmobiliarios para vender en Europa | Blog de marketing inmobiliario


Los clientes que compran propiedades en España son principalmente Europeos residentes y no residentes. Aproximadamente un 13 % de las ventqas son a extranjeros. Anunciarse en esos portales incrementa las posiblidades de venta




www.1001portales.com





But yes, the (poor) British expat cash will not be missed in Spain.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Nice bit like living in Essex.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

xabiaxica said:


> Only the 'rich' ones. Certainly it's out of reach for anyone living on a state pension.


Or people with good private or company pension. A couple, both with teacher's pension and state pension, will have a combined income of around £45,000 a year.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Joppa said:


> Or people with good private or company pension. A couple, both with teacher's pension and state pension, will have a combined income of around £45,000 a year.


Indeed and they could live quite comfortably on that if they were sensible.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Solcam said:


> Could be quite a dig to spanish economy as years go by.property money spent by experts.





Solcam said:


> You seem to be getting quite a lot of joy giving out bad news.....think if I'd have the good fortune to relocate I'd be enjoying the lifestyle rather than on phone.


no one on here has has any joy in the news of Brexit. We have all lived under the cloud of what will happen to us since 2016... our right to stay , our right to work, our right to healthcare, our rights to pensions.

again like others, I’m sorry that Brexit has dented your plans but it’s happened and it’s not our fault, you may not like what you are reading, but those are the facts, and those facts have been known for a long time. 

The Spanish economy will not suffer because U.K. immigrants have a harder time getting residency, no more than any other 3rd country applicant. Don’t get confused with tourism, totally different subject, once virus is over, tourism will return as will be Brits etc for their usual two weeks in the med, residency will have no impact on them.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Neither rich nor poor just in the middle .looking to enjoy retirement in a couple of years. Thanks everyone for your replies.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Megsmum said:


> no one on here has has any joy in the news of Brexit. We have all lived under the cloud of what will happen to us since 2016... our right to stay , our right to work, our right to healthcare, our rights to pensions.
> 
> again like others, I’m sorry that Brexit has dented your plans but it’s happened and it’s not our fault, you may not like what you are reading, but those are the facts, and those facts have been known for a long time.
> 
> The Spanish economy will not suffer because U.K. immigrants have a harder time getting residency, no more than any other 3rd country applicant. Don’t get confused with tourism, totally different subject, once virus is over, tourism will return as will be Brits etc for their usual two weeks in the med, residency will have no impact on them.


Spain won’t but regions like the Costa del Sol/Blanca will. Their whole economies are built on tourist industry.









España echa de menos a los turistas británicos


Las restricciones a la movilidad por la pandemia hunden la llegada de viajeros del Reino Unido un 82%




elpais.com


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Isobella said:


> Spain won’t but regions like the Costa del Sol/Blanca will. Their whole economies are built on tourist industry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


which is what I said. Tourism is a different matter , the average two weeks in the sun is not going to change because of Brexit. The pandemic is a totally different subject to Brexit and residency and the OPs situation The pandemic will go, tourism will return eventually, but the same economic issues in various industries will take time to recover.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> which is what I said. Tourism is a different matter , the average two weeks in the sun is not going to change because of Brexit. The pandemic is a totally different subject to Brexit and residency and the OPs situation The pandemic will go, tourism will return eventually, but the same economic issues in various industries will take time to recover.


Exactly. Brexit will have no effect on genuine holidaymakers. 

They'll be back once everyone can travel again.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

MataMata said:


> My understanding is that it's 'resources' you need which can be cash in the bank or income but if income it will need to be from a secure ongoing source which in reality means pensions.
> 
> For the initial year visa it's €27k (€34k for a couple) but after that the visa is renewed for two further periods of two years to bring you to five so for the 2nd and 4th year if you're relying on cash then you will need to show not €27k/€34k but €54k/€68k each time.


This is absolutely true. You need to show _double_ the initial amount when it come time to renew, because you will be given residency for double the amount of time.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Nothing to do with not liking what I read.its the way its worded as if you should have researched harder .maybe I should.we learn from our mistakes.but quoting what a teacher would earn and pension...blah blah blah and u could live on 45k comfortably...bit off track.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

What order is it to purchase a property.?..nie number...bank account...etc etc?


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Solcam said:


> What order is it to purchase a property.?..nie number...bank account...etc etc?


We did it Solicitor, NIE, Bank Account, Look at and buy property. 

Solicitor came first because they helped with the NIE, you can do it yourself but you need to speak Spanish or take a translator to the Notary as they wont talk to you in English.
Bank account could also be first, you don't need anything Spanish related to open a non resident account. You will need (or we did 2 years ago) Passport, NI number (which shows you pay tax elsewhere), Proof of UK address. I took my last P60 as it covered all the bases. And be prepared for a form to appear at your Uk address to prove you are not tax resident. Mine turned up about 3 months after I opened the account.

You need the NIE for property purchase (Car, Washing Machine, to accept your post) our local Postman now has fun with me by asking for it in Spanish now . 
A bank account will be needed here for the utilities, IBI etc. 

We gave the solicitor POA for the flat purchase because I couldn't be sure we could get over at the time of exchange.

Don't forget that you will have to pay around 10% of the purchase price in tax, so you have to add that to the cost of any property. Then there are the usual Solicitor, land registry, searches etc. For us that was just under €1000. 

You can most of the stuff from the UK, but you will need to be here to collect your bank card, because they wont send it to your Uk address (well Santander wont anyway)

So does this mean you are going down the 90 day here, 90 in Uk route for now then?


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Well seeing as this all comes back to Brexit. Just popped into a big supermarket near me that basically supplies all the Tesco, Waitrose products in Alicante. Stripped bare!!! Asked one of the staff. Apparently no deliveries due to Brexit paperwork and no firms can be bothered so have switched to Europe routes. So you can expect those frozen Gregg's sausage rolls to be equivalent to Russian caviar by Easter!!


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Yes and then after selling property and buying property have enough in bank to show 5 years finance until apply residency


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Solcam said:


> Yes and then after selling property and buying property have enough in bank to show 5 years finance until apply residency


Are you saying you think that the requirements are unfair?


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Saying nothing just asked a question of moving to spain after brexit, bit of advice nothing else.thought that's what forums were for.


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

I hate to say this again, but welcome to my world (I'm a US citizen who will be relocating in the next few years). I hate that Brits have to go through this now, I really do. I figured out early on in my research that it was best to accept what has to be done instead of trying to figure out ways around it. 

Regarding real estate; I'm watching a few specific areas on la Coasta Daurada and I've started noticing an uptick that wasn't there the past two years. Not sure how much of this is from Brit holiday makers giving up the dream of spending half a year continuously in Spain. But personally we're hoping that we do see a depression in real estate from this (especially since it's close enough to tourist towns). It will be interesting to see what happens this year, particularly as you get to that very first 90 day mark - I think a lot of people will be shocked when they realize their new realities.

Thanks for these great conversations, the shared commiseration actually helps to keep me sane.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Barriej said:


> We did it Solicitor, NIE, Bank Account, Look at and buy property.
> 
> Solicitor came first because they helped with the NIE, you can do it yourself but you need to speak Spanish or take a translator to the Notary as they wont talk to you in English.
> Bank account could also be first, you don't need anything Spanish related to open a non resident account. You will need (or we did 2 years ago) Passport, NI number (which shows you pay tax elsewhere), Proof of UK address. I took my last P60 as it covered all the bases. And be prepared for a form to appear at your Uk address to prove you are not tax resident. Mine turned up about 3 months after I opened the account.
> ...


So does this mean you are going down the 90 day here, 90 in Uk route for now then?


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

CltFlyboy said:


> I hate to say this again, but welcome to my world (I'm a US citizen who will be relocating in the next few years). I hate that Brits have to go through this now, I really do. I figured out early on in my research that it was best to accept what has to be done instead of trying to figure out ways around it.
> 
> Regarding real estate; I'm watching a few specific areas on la Coasta Daurada and I've started noticing an uptick that wasn't there the past two years. Not sure how much of this is from Brit holiday makers giving up the dream of spending half a year continuously in Spain. But personally we're hoping that we do see a depression in real estate from this (especially since it's close enough to tourist towns). It will be interesting to see what happens this year, particularly as you get to that very first 90 day mark - I think a lot of people will be shocked when they realize their new realities.
> 
> Thanks for these great conversations, the shared commiseration actually helps to keep me sane.


As a US citizen who has been researching the visa requirements, are you able to shed any light on the questions touched on in this thread as to whether the income requirements can be satisfied by holding a lump sum in the bank (or is it essential that applicants can show actual annual income of at least the minimum amount required), and whether property ownership in Spain would be taken into account by the Consulate in assessing whether an applicant meets the requirements?


----------



## Roy W (Jan 18, 2017)

So how about someone with an Irish passport?


----------



## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Roy W said:


> So how about someone with an Irish passport?


Irish = EU
Freedom of movement 
Rock up and stay!


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Lynn R said:


> As a US citizen who has been researching the visa requirements, are you able to shed any light on the questions touched on in this thread as to whether the income requirements can be satisfied by holding a lump sum in the bank (or is it essential that applicants can show actual annual income of at least the minimum amount required), and whether property ownership in Spain would be taken into account by the Consulate in assessing whether an applicant meets the requirements?


Great question Lynn. From the research I've done so far, yes, having enough funds in the bank meets the requirement. Note that I believe that they have to be there as well for the yearly renewals, not sure if they increase the amount you have to prove each year (e.g. year two do you have to have 2x in the bank, or still just show proof of one year's savings). Either way it's a pretty unclear requirement in some ways; from what I understand, it depends on the individual consulate you visit to get approved. That's here in the states, where we have several Spain consulates across the country - it seems like each one has nuances on what they allow (another one being working remote for a non-Spain entity while entering on a NLV). Again, welcome to my world - painful.

I'd be interested to see if the UK is going to have to have the same structure (consulates) now that they are out of the EU.

Regardless, thank you all for sharing, I am trying to understand as much as I can so that when the time comes in 2-3 years for our move that we are ready with no surprises. I'm always happy to share my knowledge and lessons learned - the best thing we can do as a community is to help each other out as best possible.

--Henry


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

CltFlyboy said:


> Great question Lynn. From the research I've done so far, yes, having enough funds in the bank meets the requirement. Note that I believe that they have to be there as well for the yearly renewals, not sure if they increase the amount you have to prove each year (e.g. year two do you have to have 2x in the bank, or still just show proof of one year's savings). Either way it's a pretty unclear requirement in some ways; from what I understand, it depends on the individual consulate you visit to get approved. That's here in the states, where we have several Spain consulates across the country - it seems like each one has nuances on what they allow (another one being working remote for a non-Spain entity while entering on a NLV). Again, welcome to my world - painful.
> 
> I'd be interested to see if the UK is going to have to have the same structure (consulates) now that they are out of the EU.
> 
> ...


So do you have to have 125k up front...or as long as u have 25k approx at the start and 25 k every year till 5 year apply residency?


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

From what I understand, it's the latter - 25k up front and then have [either 25k or 2x that] the second year. Again, that's my understanding from diligently watching this forum, other forums, and expat sites dealing with non-EU to Spain moves. I recommend reaching out to whatever equivalent to our consulate you have in the UK for specific, authoritative guidance, And please PLEASE post back to this thread with your results - we grow better as a community when we fill in all these blanks together.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Solcam said:


> So do you have to have 125k up front...or as long as u have 25k approx at the start and 25 k every year till 5 year apply residency?


I think basically that's right although we are waiting to hear from someone ( possibly American/ Canadian etc ) who can say with a bit more certainty.
Long and short of it is a UK state pension isnt sufficient on its own.


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Right - I don't think you can use the _income_ generated by the pension as a proof of _future_ earnings - you have to have liquid funds available up front. I believe we have a similar thing with our Social Security system; I am eligible to collect that regardless of where I reside as a replacement retirement income, but I'm pretty sure that it's not accepted as funding for an NLV even though it is a guaranteed, known amount and source.

Times like this that I wish my one Grandmother would have gotten their Polish citizenship or the other their Welsh/Irish. I could have taken advantage of my ancestral lineage and become an EU citizen.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I think basically that's right although we are waiting to hear from someone ( possibly American/ Canadian etc ) who can say with a bit more certainty.
> Long and short of it is a UK state pension isnt sufficient on its own.


I know some Canadians who just did their two year renewal at the one year mark. They had to show enough funds & income (from pensions & some from savings in their case) to support them for two years. It was 'assumed' that the pensions would continue as they had for year one.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

CltFlyboy said:


> Either way it's a pretty unclear requirement in some ways; from what I understand, it depends on the individual consulate you visit to get approved. That's here in the states, where we have several Spain consulates across the country - it seems like each one has nuances on what they allow (another one being working remote for a non-Spain entity while entering on a NLV). Again, welcome to my world - painful.
> 
> --Henry


Thanks for the information - what you have discovered is very good training for when you eventually get to Spain, by the way, as it is like that with most things official here!

I suppose it will be helpful to a lot of British citizens wanting to move here in the future if a lump sum in the bank is acceptable in place of an actual annual income at the required minimum level, as in the past many people have sold their properties in the UK and bought a cheaper one in Spain, as house prices are lower here, so have capital left over.


----------



## Paulc66 (Feb 12, 2021)

Hi all , been reading through this thread with great interest. Having just inherited some money, we are thinking of buying a property in Spain. From what iam reading about sufficient funds we would need to show 34000 euros for the first year as a couple and then after a year we would have to show 68000 euro to cover 2 years and then finally another 68000 to cover our last 2 years before applying for full residency , when if accepted would no longer be required to show proof at all. I also understand we could probably live quite comfortably on around 22/23000 euro a year , nothing too extravagant but comfortable. Thanks for any input and you will be seeing a fair bit of me on here in the coming months no doubt, as I will be picking your brains about our move.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

That's my plan.anything I encounter I will share.


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

Solcam said:


> So do you have to have 125k up front...or as long as u have 25k approx at the start and 25 k every year till 5 year apply residency?


Hi Buddy,
Take a look at this link which is in English if you scroll through the document. ( I live in Essex too, and I am moving to Spain to retire ). As has already beeb mentioned, the sum of 27K (Euro) is accurate. You need to demonstrate you have that amount each year for 5 years. After that period you don't....



http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/LONDRES/en/Consulado/Documents/RES%20ES-EN.pdf



All the best

Steve


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

Sorry forgot to mention, yes you need Private health care for the first year at least ( possibly for the 5 years but don't quote me!!)
Steve


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

Paulc66 said:


> Hi all , been reading through this thread with great interest. Having just inherited some money, we are thinking of buying a property in Spain. From what iam reading about sufficient funds we would need to show 34000 euros for the first year as a couple and then after a year we would have to show 68000 euro to cover 2 years and then finally another 68000 to cover our last 2 years before applying for full residency , when if accepted would no longer be required to show proof at all. I also understand we could probably live quite comfortably on around 22/23000 euro a year , nothing too extravagant but comfortable. Thanks for any input and you will be seeing a fair bit of me on here in the coming months no doubt, as I will be picking your brains about our move.


The annual amount is ( for the first person ) 27k. Anyone else (Wife, husband, kids etc) pay an additional circa 7K each for every year for the 5 years. After 5 years there is no requirement to show financial dependence. The best way the achieve this is probably through showing a pension forecast ( which naturally gets paid all the time you are alive ). It is my understanding that lump sums are not what they are looking for, other than buying property in excess of 500K though the Golden Visa route.
If your annual income doesn't reach the figure you need (34K?) I guess you could use the inherited cash to drip feed and pay by direct debit into your Spanish account to satisfy the Visa requirements?
Just a thought....
Steve


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

.........and from 30.06.21 you will need to take driving theory and practical tests ( maybe even lessons if you require !!! ) to get a Spanish Driving Licence, same thing for motorcycles. Welcome to the new post BREXIT EU in 2021 as a Third Country National......


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Yes i was thinking as long as you had say 60 k in the bank cover the 2years or stick 30k first year and another 30 k..2nd year..it would do the job as long as untouched


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Solcam said:


> Yes i was thinking as long as you had say 60 k in the bank cover the 2years or stick 30k first year and another 30 k..2nd year..it would do the job as long as untouched


Thats the problem there. Leaving it untouched. I suppose if you spent it then you wouldn't get the visa renewal.

I think until people actually start going to the consulate and get the information, we wont know what is allowed.
None of us here can really give advice as we all have been though a different set of conditions.

Although a Canadian friend put the whole of his house sale into a Spanish bank and showed his pension pot and that was accepted. He didn't need to show income (although the pension company had given hime a monthly income statement) which is what may have been how he got the visa.

I did the same when we went for residence in November and they didn't care, as long as the 9000 was showing in the bank (but thats not relevant anymore as those days are gone) 

But our Solicitor did say that she has had people accepted from other third countries in this way. 

You would need a pension pot of maximum 200k to allow you to take the amount needed as income (over 5 years its over 1/2 of the pot without any growth) and with the Uk now allowing you to draw your pot however you wish (as apposed to the minute annuities that used to be on offer) I can't see why not.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

SteveG999 said:


> .........and from 30.06.21 you will need to take driving theory and practical tests ( maybe even lessons if you require !!! ) to get a Spanish Driving Licence, same thing for motorcycles. Welcome to the new post BREXIT EU in 2021 as a Third Country National......


I am not sure but I think you have to register with a driving school even if you decide to study on your own as only the registered schools can apply for tests. Not sure if it's TRUE but that is what I was told a few years ago


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

and all in another language....with manjana culture....cant see it being straightforward


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

kaipa said:


> I am not sure but I think you have to register with a driving school even if you decide to study on your own as only the registered schools can apply for tests. Not sure if it's TRUE but that is what I was told a few years ago


Theory is available in English (well it was last year) 
But you have to take your test in driving Schools car as it has to be a dual control car. 

There is also no such thing as a provisional licence here either.


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

CltFlyboy said:


> That could make a lot of sense for someone looking to open a small business while also needing healthcare.


If you open a business and become Autonomo you pay around €250 a month which gives you healthcare. Not a very cheap or efficient route in my mind.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Barriej said:


> If you open a business and become Autonomo you pay around €250 a month which gives you healthcare. Not a very cheap or efficient route in my mind.


Especially since you also have to pay income tax on top of that. It is of course expected that you actually run a business... 

250€ a month in autónomo payments is on the low side, too.


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

Agreed, but my point was if you were thinking about doing that anyway then the healthcare is somewhat taken care of. And remember, I'm coming from the US, where (I kid you not) we pay upwards of $25,000/year for healthcare that still leaves us paying copays and deductibles. It's a bargain in my eyes - perspective


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

I just checked, and my annualized healthcare benefits (for tax reporting, what I would have paid personally) came to $26,256 last year. Yes, it's that screwed up here.


----------



## Paulc66 (Feb 12, 2021)

if the Convenio Especial is going to cost 157 euro each a month , surely it will be cheaper to stay privately 
insured. Seems a bit of mixed feelings around the 34000 per couple per year. I suppose at least if you can pull the amount from some sort of investment and 
put it in your Spanish account , that would be acceptable 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Paulc66 said:


> if the Convenio Especial is going to cost 157 euro each a month , surely it will be cheaper to stay privately
> insured. Seems a bit of mixed feelings around the 34000 per couple per year. I suppose at least if you can pull the amount from some sort of investment and
> put it in your Spanish account , that would be acceptable 🤷‍♂️


Have you checked out what it would cost two people aged over 65 to take out a new private health insurance policy (assuming they could get cover at all if they have pre-existing conditions)? The cost increases very steeply, just as it does for the Convenio Especial when people reach that age. Even if people have taken out insurance before they reach 65, most insurance companies hike the premiums when they do get to that age.

This is what one of our American members, Elyles, said on the subject in 2018:-

" I had Sanitas for two years and when they jacked up our rates four fold when we turned 65, we went on Convenio Especial. We have received excellent care in the Spanish System"


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CltFlyboy said:


> Agreed, but my point was if you were thinking about doing that anyway then the healthcare is somewhat taken care of. And remember, I'm coming from the US, where (I kid you not) we pay upwards of $25,000/year for healthcare that still leaves us paying copays and deductibles. It's a bargain in my eyes - perspective


Will your visa permit work? 

Are you applying for an entrepreneur or self-employment visa?


----------



## CltFlyboy (Feb 11, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> Will your visa permit work?
> 
> Are you applying for an entrepreneur or self-employment visa?


Honestly, I'm not sure yet which visa route we'll approach - Golden, NLV, or employment (I might take a role with my company there, it's very high tech and few people in the world are qualified). So we have options. Trying to figure out the best one is intimidating, as there are plusses and minuses to each. For example, I'll lay out our souls bare here:

The Golden visa gets instant permanent residency for me and my wife, along with other benes, but I still have to carry private insurance. I think that it shortens the time required for applying for Spanish citizenship to 5 years. But that commits ~$550k USD to a real estate deal, or ~1.1M to stock investments in a Spanish company (no way on the second).
The NLV is straightforward - keep funds available, carry insurance. But it would take 5 years to hit permanent residency.
Employment visa (high tech) - gets me into the public system but it binds me to the company I'm with (though honestly the plan is to retire from here, not many places like where I work in the world).

So we spend our time researching and planning, watching the news to figure out the changes, add to that the political climate (should we forgo looking in Catalunya and focus on Valencia etc). Fun stuff. I guess it does give us something other than COVID lockdowns to focus on though...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xicoalc said:


> Its crazy that anyone is now complaining because they had no time with brexit. As xabiachica said, we knew in 2016. If anyone was on the process of buying a house it didn't stop because of covid. Lawyers were working. Powet of eterny existed, even application for residency could have been done last year with a POE.
> 
> No british person was "SUDDENLY" blocked because of brexit or covid. There were always ways.
> 
> ...


Couldn‘t agree more. It was clear to any thinking person that there would be an end to freedom of movement at midnight on June 23rd 2016.

Some people cling to a ‘British exceptionalism’, the view that Spain will make different rules for British citizens. Some seem to think that Spain can’t do without British money. Well, round here, near to Marbella, Brits are the paupers. It’s the Russians, the Saudis, the Chinese who bring in the dosh. Immigrants from other EU member states like the Netherlands, Belgium and especially the Scandinavian countries with their high wage, high tax and high social security regimes are usually, in my experience at least, more financially sound than many retired Brits.

Brits with real money usually opt for somewhere more upmarket and trendy anyway......Tuscany, some modish parts of France like Provence or go further afield to more exotic climes. That’s where I’d be off to if I had the ready. I rather fancy lounging on the terrace of a Tuscan palazzo, sipping chilled Prosecco and gazing at the distant view of Florence, much as I love Spain.

Requiring a certain level of income plus other things such as health insurance is the norm for long- term residence in many countries. Moving to another country to live is a kind of cash purchase, a life-style buy. It’s just that the price has gone up lately.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solcam said:


> Could be quite a dig to spanish economy as years go by.property money spent by experts.


Not really. Check the stats.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Thanks for the link steve


mrypg9 said:


> Not really. Check the stats.


Another one of the you want something for nothing brigade.....i dont...i also voted to remain....and timing wise was to early to retire...im coming to spain because i like it no other reason.dont need to sip prosseco.nice coffee on a sunny morning sitting on my terrace or roof top do me fine.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solcam said:


> Thanks for the link steve
> 
> Another one of the you want something for nothing brigade.....i dont...i also voted to remain....and timing wise was to early to retire...im coming to spain because i like it no other reason.dont need to sip prosseco.nice coffee on a sunny morning sitting on my terrace or roof top do me fine.


How do you infer I ‘m one of the ‘something for nothing ‘ brigade? I have a very nice life here, thank you, and have done so for many years. Neither rich nor poor, like most Brits here.. I didn’t vote, out of the country too long, but had I been able to I would have voted Remain.

If anyone is guilty of wanting ‘something for nothing’ surely it’s anyone thinking they can just up and off to another country post- Brexit on insufficient required means. And how anyone can be unaware of the new income requirements and other changes to immigration post- Brexit beats me. For the past four years plus Brexit has dominated British political life. An election was fought and won on the issue. The loss of freedom of movement was a constant topic of discussion , in fact I’d say it was the main one. How could you have been unaware of how this would affect people’s plans to move to Spain.

To repeat: the Brexit changes affect Brits moving to all EU member states. Spain has no real incentive to make exceptions for would- be British immigrants, any more than France, Portugal , Greece or Spain. Neither will Spain go back to being a country of donkey riders and tomato growers without Brits, as a disgruntled Brit said to me that it would the other day.

I’m sorry you won’t be able to live here as and when you had planned. But you can sip your coffee on your roof for one hundred and eighty days (non- consecutive). each year.
That’s more than most Brits can hope for, after all. A holiday in the Lake District or Blackpool is what many will be looking forward to.

Back to drinking coffee on my terrace....


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

You got the wrong end of the stick


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

Solcam said:


> You got the wrong end of the stick


Hi mate,
Have you considered Portugal? particularly in the South. No 27K!!! Add to that VERY favourable tax benefits ( There is an Non Habitual Visa available, and until recently expats were offered 10 years TAX FREE residency. However this is now 10% ( still much lower than good olde Essex UK ). Its worth a look. I am certainly looking at Portugal even though I meet the Spanish requirements..
Steve


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

Thanks for the heads up....will have a look.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> Latest figures I can find are from 2018.
> 
> Residential sales in 2018 to foreigners accounted for 13.6% of all sales, but of those, only 8% were sold to British buyers (so they bought way less than 2% of the total stock sold), the other 92% of the 13.6 went mainly to French, German and Swedish buyers.
> 
> ...


Russians and Chinese tend to buy more expensive properties though. Luxurious villas rather than apartments. So although the numbers may be fewer the cash spent is probably quite considerable.


----------



## Paulc66 (Feb 12, 2021)

Hi, I have another question, this one about paying tax in Spain. If a resident in Spain do you have to pay tax on your UK old age pension? From what I understand you only get a very small tax allowance.
Thanks


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Paulc66 said:


> Hi, I have another question, this one about paying tax in Spain. If a resident in Spain do you have to pay tax on your UK old age pension? From what I understand you only get a very small tax allowance.
> Thanks


A UK state pension is taxable in Spain (along with your other worldwide income, save for UK Crown Pensions which are taxable only in the UK but must still be declared as exempt income on your Spanish tax return, and can result in you paying a higher rate of tax on your other income).

Anyone receiving a UK state pension would be aged 65 or over and would therefore get the basic Spanish personal allowance for someone aged 65-74 (it increases at age 75) which is €6,700. In addition they would receive the General Expenses Allowance against earned income (which include pensions) which is €2,000. There is also a Low Income Allowance of €5565. That's rather complicated to describe, but in essence anyone with an income of €13,115 or below gets the full allowance and therefore pays no income tax. Between that amount and €16,825 that allowance tapers down and anyone with an income of €16,825 or over gets no Low Income reduction at all. Anyone with investment income of over €6,500 doesn't get the Low Income Allowance even if their earned income is below €13,115. It isn't like the UK personal allowance of 12,500 which everyone gets no matter how much their income is. This is an extract from the Agencia Tributaria's tax manual which explains it:-

"Para el ejercicio 2019, con el objeto de reducir la carga impositiva de los trabajadores con menores rentas, se aumenta tanto el importe de la reducción por obtención de rendimientos del trabajo (hasta 5.565 euros anuales) como el umbral de los rendimientos netos de trabajo que permiten aplicar esta reducción (hasta 16.825 euros). De este modo, los contribuyentes que obtengan unos rendimientos netos del trabajo en 2019 inferiores a 16.825 euros, siempre que no tengan rentas, excluidas las exentas, distintas de las del trabajo superiores a 6.500 euros, minorará el rendimiento neto del trabajo en las siguientes cuantías: a) Contribuyentes con rendimientos netos del trabajo iguales o inferiores a 13.115 euros: 5.565 euros anuales. b) Contribuyentes con rendimientos netos del trabajo comprendidos entre 13.115 y 16.825 euros: 5.565 euros menos el resultado de multiplicar por 1,5 la diferencia entre el rendimiento del trabajo y 13.115 euros anuales."


----------



## Paulc66 (Feb 12, 2021)

Thanks again Lynn for your comprehensive answer. Excuse my ignorance, but from what I understand of that as long as income from my investments is under €13000 until I get to 65, and then under abt 4000€ when I get to state pension age I should not have to pay income tax. 
Thanks 
Paul


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Paulc66 said:


> Thanks again Lynn for your comprehensive answer. Excuse my ignorance, but from what I understand of that as long as income from my investments is under €13000 until I get to 65, and then under abt 4000€ when I get to state pension age I should not have to pay income tax.
> Thanks
> Paul


The taxing of a Uk old age pension might not be the main issue here.

If you are arriving in Spain (or other Eu countries) from 1st Jan 2021 having to show €2.200 a month income to get a visa will mean everything gets taxed.
You will of course get all the usual allowances but will still have a reasonable tax burden.

There are lots of things to consider with the new visa rules that those who have been here years and even those who arrived in 2020 don't have to deal with.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Barriej said:


> The taxing of a Uk old age pension might not be the main issue here.
> 
> If you are arriving in Spain (or other Eu countries) from 1st Jan 2021 having to show €2.200 a month income to get a visa will mean everything gets taxed.
> You will of course get all the usual allowances but will still have a reasonable tax burden.
> ...



This is a crucial point for those seeking NLVs. You have to show an income not set amounts of money for one reason. It means you are paying income tax. That is why you get the Visa. Showing a savings account will mean no , or little, income tax and the country wants immigrants who contribute money not ones who can take advantage of tax allowances etc. That is the reason it states a monthly income. All residents with NLVs will require to fill out modelo 100 and declare the minimum incomes for the Visa which will be around 27,000 euros per person. This means tax will always be payable.


----------



## Paulc66 (Feb 12, 2021)

Thanks again for the input, that helps to clear things up, to a certain extent lol


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Three things that new UK arrivals will face that existing pre-Brexit folk dont face is: Spanish driving licence, high income tax, continuous healthcare payments.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Russians and Chinese tend to buy more expensive properties though. Luxurious villas rather than apartments. So although the numbers may be fewer the cash spent is probably quite considerable.


I think that must be a regional thing. In Madrid the Chinese area (we are not allowed to call in Chinatown according to the PP) is a modest area and the properties there are certainly not luxurious villas.


----------



## Keithtoon (May 7, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> A UK state pension is taxable in Spain (along with your other worldwide income, save for UK Crown Pensions which are taxable only in the UK but must still be declared as exempt income on your Spanish tax return, and can result in you paying a higher rate of tax on your other income).
> 
> Anyone receiving a UK state pension would be aged 65 or over and would therefore get the basic Spanish personal allowance for someone aged 65-74 (it increases at age 75) which is €6,700. In addition they would receive the General Expenses Allowance against earned income (which include pensions) which is €2,000. There is also a Low Income Allowance of €5565. That's rather complicated to describe, but in essence anyone with an income of €13,115 or below gets the full allowance and therefore pays no income tax. Between that amount and €16,825 that allowance tapers down and anyone with an income of €16,825 or over gets no Low Income reduction at all. Anyone with investment income of over €6,500 doesn't get the Low Income Allowance even if their earned income is below €13,115. It isn't like the UK personal allowance of 12,500 which everyone gets no matter how much their income is. This is an extract from the Agencia Tributaria's tax manual which explains it:-
> 
> "Para el ejercicio 2019, con el objeto de reducir la carga impositiva de los trabajadores con menores rentas, se aumenta tanto el importe de la reducción por obtención de rendimientos del trabajo (hasta 5.565 euros anuales) como el umbral de los rendimientos netos de trabajo que permiten aplicar esta reducción (hasta 16.825 euros). De este modo, los contribuyentes que obtengan unos rendimientos netos del trabajo en 2019 inferiores a 16.825 euros, siempre que no tengan rentas, excluidas las exentas, distintas de las del trabajo superiores a 6.500 euros, minorará el rendimiento neto del trabajo en las siguientes cuantías: a) Contribuyentes con rendimientos netos del trabajo iguales o inferiores a 13.115 euros: 5.565 euros anuales. b) Contribuyentes con rendimientos netos del trabajo comprendidos entre 13.115 y 16.825 euros: 5.565 euros menos el resultado de multiplicar por 1,5 la diferencia entre el rendimiento del trabajo y 13.115 euros anuales."


----------



## Keithtoon (May 7, 2015)

Hi Lynn,
That's great news! so my earnings via pension will be $15,000 a year so NO TAX paid up to $13,112?
Or earn $6700 plus $2000 allowance total of $8700 tax free? , as I will not qualify for the LIA of $5565?
Call me stupid but that's my way of reading this?
Regards
Keith


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Keithtoon said:


> Hi Lynn,
> That's great news! so my earnings via pension will be $15,000 a year so NO TAX paid up to $13,112?
> Or earn $6700 plus $2000 allowance total of $8700 tax free? , as I will not qualify for the LIA of $5565?
> Call me stupid but that's my way of reading this?
> ...


For anyone already here that would be about correct, but there are lots of 'little' things from what Ive been told.
Wont find out until how mine will stack up as Ive not done a return yet.

If you are part of a couple and only one of you has an income, you can file as a couple and use the other persons tax benefit. So technically €20k plus before tax.... (or not) ???

But not for any newcomers unfortunately, the visa requirements mean you cannot 'tailor' your income to suit paying little tax.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Barriej said:


> The taxing of a Uk old age pension might not be the main issue here.
> 
> If you are arriving in Spain (or other Eu countries) from 1st Jan 2021 having to show €2.200 a month income to get a visa will mean everything gets taxed.
> You will of course get all the usual allowances but will still have a reasonable tax burden.
> ...


Crown pensions are subject to Dual Taxation Orders and cannot be taxed twice, whatever your residential status in Spain. If your income from your Crown pension is good and your only other additional income is the UK basic SRP your tax burden will be minimal, especially if you are in the older age bracket.

As for tax on investment income, it’s worth looking at Spanish tax compliant bonds.

But as I’m not an accountant or tax expert, the advice of a professional who is is essential.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

The more i hear or read the less accesible it seems to become possible...to someone looking to sell in england....retire to spain....buying living on some equity state uk and couple small private pensions


----------



## Keithtoon (May 7, 2015)

Barriej said:


> For anyone already here that would be about correct, but there are lots of 'little' things from what Ive been told.
> Wont find out until how mine will stack up as Ive not done a return yet.
> 
> If you are part of a couple and only one of you has an income, you can file as a couple and use the other persons tax benefit. So technically €20k plus before tax.... (or not) ???
> ...


Cheers Barriej,
We are not yet in Spain hopefully later this year. I will be over 65.my partner has Irish passport but no pension as she is 58 years young. Can this still be classed as a "couple" ? was told if you prove you live together and have joint bank account it should be ok. So $20,000 sounds wonderful!!!
Regards
Keith


----------



## Keithtoon (May 7, 2015)

Solcam said:


> The more i hear or read the less accesible it seems to become possible...to someone looking to sell in england....retire to spain....buying living on some equity state uk and couple small private pensions


Will be selling our home in uk, and using the monies to Rent/Buy with a healthy surplus.


----------



## Solcam (Feb 3, 2021)

That was plan...but post brexit...not straightforward


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Solcam said:


> The more i hear or read the less accesible it seems to become possible...to someone looking to sell in england....retire to spain....buying living on some equity state uk and couple small private pensions


As long as Brits continue to ignore the fact that the relationship with EU has changed then they will be constantly surprised and angry. We are no longer members of the EU and therefore we are no longer under its pastoral care. This means our status is very much different. Whilst members we were helped and protected. Previously to live in Spain you simply needed to prove you were not a burden to the state and could support yourself if not working. Now we are a third country our profile is considerably different. This is why the amount of money required for the Visa appears high to some people. Of course one can live off less than 30,000 euros but that is not the point. The point is now you get to live here only if you are seen to contribute. 30,000 euros needs to be as taxable income not block savings as you will need to pay income tax each year on it. The same thinking occurs in UK. They dont want immigrants who just survive in UK. They want them to pay tax. Hence the fact that all EU immigrants require quite high income jobs. Spain I am afraid is now an expensive place to live permanently if you intend to retire here and that is the price we pay for our sovereignty.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Paulc66 said:


> Thanks again Lynn for your comprehensive answer. Excuse my ignorance, but from what I understand of that as long as income from my investments is under €13000 until I get to 65, and then under abt 4000€ when I get to state pension age I should not have to pay income tax.
> Thanks
> Paul


As others have said, it doesn't get over the hurdle that new applicants for the non lucrative visa will have to demonstrate a minimum income of €27k for an individual. None of us knows as yet, until people start applying to the Spanish Consulate in the UK for these visas, what line they are going to take as to whether this must be in the form of a regular income or whether lump sums in the bank will be accepted instead.

However, if your income will be mostly from investments then you really need to get professional advice, I would not comment on the treatment of those for tax purposes at all - above my pay grade!


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Barriej said:


> For anyone already here that would be about correct, but there are lots of 'little' things from what Ive been told.
> Wont find out until how mine will stack up as Ive not done a return yet.
> 
> If you are part of a couple and only one of you has an income, you can file as a couple and use the other persons tax benefit. So technically €20k plus before tax.... (or not) ???
> ...





Barriej said:


> If you are part of a couple and only one of you has an income, you can file as a couple and use the other persons tax benefit. So technically €20k plus before tax.... (or not) ???


If you file a joint tax return, you can only use €3,400 of your spouse's tax allowance, not all of it.



https://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/en_gb/Inicio/_Segmentos_/Ciudadanos/Minimos__reducciones_y_deducciones_en_el_IRPF/Declaracion_conjunta_en_el_IRPF/Tributacion_individual_y_tributacion_conjunta.shtml


----------



## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> If you file a joint tax return, you can only use €3,400 of your spouse's tax allowance, not all of it.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/en_gb/Inicio/_Segmentos_/Ciudadanos/Minimos__reducciones_y_deducciones_en_el_IRPF/Declaracion_conjunta_en_el_IRPF/Tributacion_individual_y_tributacion_conjunta.shtml


Thats fine, thanks.


----------



## SteveG999 (Aug 5, 2020)

Just to add a piece regarding the Double Taxation rule....

*Spanish taxation rules and Pensions*
*Double taxation*
The UK and Spain have had a Double Taxation Convention for some time. Rules covering income tax and other taxes came into effect on January 1 and April 6, 2015.
Government service pensions paid to retired members of the fire service, police, civil servants, armed forces and local authorities are exempt from Spanish tax. Under the new treaty the amount of the pension is still exempt but must be included when calculating how much tax is due in Spain. This could have the effect of pushing any other income – perhaps from investments and rent – into a higher tax bracket meaning you’d have to pay more tax in Spain.
*Disclosure rules*
The Spanish ‘disclosure’ rules mean that Spanish residents and expats living in Spain will have to declare all relevant overseas assets worth more than €50,000. This includes bank accounts, property and life assurance policies.
The Gov.uk website includes the following:
*Taxation*
The tax system in Spain operates on the same basis as the tax system in the UK. In the UK, those who are resident for tax purposes are taxed on their worldwide income, regardless of the country in which it arises. Those who are not resident for tax purposes are taxed only on the income arising in the UK. A Double Taxation Convention between Spain and the UK operates to prevent income being taxed in both countries when a resident of one country has income arising from a source in the other country. The full text of the convention can be found on the HMRC website.
In the case of pensions for past Government service, double taxation is avoided by allocating an exclusive right to tax to the paying state. This means that in all cases where a UK Government Service pension is paid to a Spanish resident it will be taxable only in the UK, apart from where, exceptionally, it is paid to a Spanish national. HMRC maintain a list of the UK pensions that are classified as government pensions for the purposes of the Double Taxation Convention.
Spain applies a system known as ‘exemption with progression’. This means all income a Spanish resident receives is considered when calculating the applicable rate of income tax in Spain – regardless of whether the income itself is taxed in Spain. So a UK Government pension, exempt under the terms of the DTC, will still be taken into account for the purposes of determining the tax rate which applies to income taxable in Spain
This is common practice in other states around the world.
If, as a resident of Spain, you have concerns over whether a UK Government service pension is going to be taxed in Spain in a manner not in accordance with the Double Taxation Convention, you should address these to the Spanish tax authorities.
In accordance with Spanish and international law, all residents in Spain (nationals and non-nationals alike) are required to declare assets or groups of assets held outside Spain. Assets may include bank accounts, securities, rights, insurance, annuities, property, etc. and the declaration is a separate exercise to the annual tax return.
To reinforce this obligation, and as part of the Spanish Government’s anti-fraud law, the Government requires all residents in Spain to file an annual informative declaration of assets held overseas by 31 March each year. Severe penalties for incorrect, incomplete or late reporting can be incurred and the legislation also means that criminal charges can be brought in the case of non-compliance.
Please see the links below:
Living in Spain


https://www.narpo.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HMRC-Letter-re-Spanish-Taxation.pdf


HMRC Letter re Double Taxation
Tax in Spain for Expats

From:


----------



## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

kaipa said:


> Three things that new UK arrivals will face that existing pre-Brexit folk dont face is: Spanish driving licence, high income tax, continuous healthcare payments.


For like for like incomes Brexit has not changed anyone's tax burden.

True newcomers now need a relatively higher income to qualify for a visa but they will pay no more tax than someone on the same income who was here before Brexit.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

By showing a higher income ( by claiming savings are an income) would mean tax exposure on what would before have been savings and possibly not taxed. That's what I mean.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

SteveG999 said:


> Just to add a piece regarding the Double Taxation rule....
> 
> *Spanish taxation rules and Pensions*
> *Double taxation*
> ...


On the whole that's an informative article, but this sentence is rather misleading:-

"To reinforce this obligation, and as part of the Spanish Government’s anti-fraud law, the Government requires all residents in Spain to file an annual informative declaration of assets held overseas by 31 March each year."

Only those residents who have an overseas asset valued at €50,000 or more in any one asset class are required to submit the Modelo 720 overseas assets declaration, not "all residents in Spain" as the article says. And it is not necessary to file the declaration each year, except if an asset has increased or decreased in value by €20,000 or more, or if an asset has been sold.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Also if you own or have a substantial share in a business to declare and own property(s) etc. you may have to pay wealth tax on the assets. I don't know if it has changed since I last saw it but it is possible to have to pay a high amount for assets that don't earn you much money.


----------

