# Has anyone Nationalized a used vehicle from USA since 2009?



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Has anyone done this since the new NAFTA rules went into effect?


Looking at this article (translated) it states:



> MEXICO CITY .- The decree published Wednesday in the Official Journal of the Federation through the Ministry of Economy (SE) is valid until December 31, 2010.
> 
> States that get preferential treatment originating used vehicles used in the U.S. and Canada with a valid certificate of origin to certify that all add-on components and parts did not change the original character that had the car when it was manufactured.
> 
> To prove this, the owner must have a manufacturer's certificate of origin or credible information that the unit meets the relevant rule of origin, a document that will be presented to the customs authority.


México establece condiciones para importar vehículos usados - El Mañana - Nacional

So then what constutes a valid certificate of origin?


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

When a brand new car is shipped to the first distributor/dealership, it carries a 'certificate of origin'. That certificate does not go to the private purchaser. Finding one for a used car might be virtually impossible, creating a Catch-22; probably Mexico's intention. 
We have to recognize that many cars and trucks are built in Mexico. I marvel at the number and variety of VW models, for example, that are available in Mexico but not in the USA; as well as the much higher prices in the USA. Mexico uses European standards; different from the US standards, but not necessarily inferior in any way. I leave the rest to your political/commercial imagination.


----------



## mndwgz (Sep 13, 2010)

tcreek said:


> Has anyone done this since the new NAFTA rules went into effect?
> 
> 
> Looking at this article (translated) it states:
> ...


 Window sticker?

I may have answered a few of my own questions; My then new $32k pickup with $40k of "components and parts" would not be allowed? It meets the "relevant rule of origin" and is better than stock, but whose opinion would that be?


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> When a brand new car is shipped to the first distributor/dealership, it carries a 'certificate of origin'. That certificate does not go to the private purchaser. Finding one for a used car might be virtually impossible, creating a Catch-22; probably Mexico's intention.
> We have to recognize that many cars and trucks are built in Mexico. I marvel at the number and variety of VW models, for example, that are available in Mexico but not in the USA; as well as the much higher prices in the USA. Mexico uses European standards; different from the US standards, but not necessarily inferior in any way. I leave the rest to your political/commercial imagination.


Here is a certificate of origin:

www.cofoce.gob.mx/documentos/formatos/TLCAN.DOC


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

mndwgz said:


> Window sticker?
> 
> I may have answered a few of my own questions; My then new $32k pickup with $40k of "components and parts" would not be allowed? It meets the "relevant rule of origin" and is better than stock, but whose opinion would that be?



I still have the window sticker for the vehicle.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Seems this article is a bit clearer:

México establece condiciones para importar vehículos usados :: Noticieros Televisa




> The decree published Wednesday in the Official Journal of the Federation through the Ministry of Economy (SE) is valid until December 31, 2010.
> 
> States that get preferential treatment originating used vehicles used in the U.S. and Canada with a valid certificate of origin to certify that all add-on components and parts did not change the original character that had the car when it was manufactured.
> 
> ...


I am sure I may be able to get further is I find the actual law.


----------



## mndwgz (Sep 13, 2010)

There is a certificate of origin type sticker affixed to the door post or under the hood, maybe that's enough.

There’s a lot of northern state reference; How do the southern states factor like Quinta Roo? Different rules?


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

mndwgz said:


> There is a certificate of origin type sticker affixed to the door post or under the hood, maybe that's enough.
> 
> There’s a lot of northern state reference; How do the southern states factor like Quinta Roo? Different rules?




That is a manufacturer's label not a certificate of origin, though I do not know of any US brand of vehicle not made in North America. I do think some Ford Models were made in Japan for a while after they took control of Mazda and pasted new Ford decals for the same Mazda vehicles.

The laws are for the entire country of Mexico, except the border regions where they can import any vehicle.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I'm always impressed by the lengths that most folks will go to in an attempt to find a way to bring an old car to Mexico. Frankly, it just isn't worth the trouble and the expense. If you want to use the vehicle for your move to Mexico, OK, but if it isn't reliable enough to drive back out some years later, you might be wise to simply drive it out after the move, sell it for what you can get and take a bus or flight back to your home in Mexico. Then, buy what you want in Mexico, new or used. There is the added advantage of never having to import and export your foreign plated car whenever you go back north to visit. With Mexican plates, there is no such inconvenience. It also seems that Mexico offers a much wider choice of vehicles, especially smaller economy cars & pickup trucks. By the way, there is a tax advantage to having a pickup; no tenencia.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> I'm always impressed by the lengths that most folks will go to in an attempt to find a way to bring an old car to Mexico. Frankly, it just isn't worth the trouble and the expense. If you want to use the vehicle for your move to Mexico, OK, but if it isn't reliable enough to drive back out some years later, you might be wise to simply drive it out after the move, sell it for what you can get and take a bus or flight back to your home in Mexico. Then, buy what you want in Mexico, new or used. There is the added advantage of never having to import and export your foreign plated car whenever you go back north to visit. With Mexican plates, there is no such inconvenience. It also seems that Mexico offers a much wider choice of vehicles, especially smaller economy cars & pickup trucks. By the way, there is a tax advantage to having a pickup; no tenencia.


I am surprised more people are not pushing to nationalize vehicles in Mexico. It seems Mexico wants all the advantages of NAFTA, but not wanting to reciprocate in return. If they agreed to these things, then by golly I am going to make sure they abide by it.

There are many reasons for wanting to nationalize a vehicle. For one, American vehicles tend be have been better taken care of over their life. In addition, vehicles manufactured in Mexico for the Mexican market are just not a built as well. They also tend to not come with A/C, electric windows, etc. Yes, small things, but do make a vehicle more comfy. 

Then you have companies like Dodge, Ford and Chevy selling their 150/1500 modeled pickups as 250/2500. The only reason I can see why they are doing that is to try to justify their higher price tags.

Then if ever you do want to sell it, an American vehicle there will command a better price than what you could sell it for here.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Hmmm. Someone doesn't realize just how many 'American cars and trucks' are actually made in Mexico. Here are some familiar names: Freightliner, Ford, Chevrolet, Chrysler, Mercedes, VW, Nissan, Honda, etc., etc., etc. In some cases, like the PT Cruiser, they are only made in Mexico.
You may also find that there are a lot more models available in Mexico. For an example, look at Volkswagen.com.mx and compare the models (trucks too) that are available, compared with what you can get in the USA. You could do the same with Chevy, or any of the others.
As for 'better taken care of', I'll have to ask the barber how much work he puts into the 1939 Plymouth that he drives every day; or the huge classic car club in Guadalajara.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> As for 'better taken care of', I'll have to ask the barber how much work he puts into the 1939 Plymouth that he drives every day; or the huge classic car club in Guadalajara.


+1 on that. Some of their cars were parked around Glorieta Minerva a few months ago. It is amazing to see the restored classics. In fact one of the things I like most about Mexico is the old cars. One of my neighbors restores old US cars. I run past his house every morning. He has been doing trucks lately. It is fun to watch them go from a faded old chassis to a beautiful glossy restoration. And this is Mexico so it all happens out on the street where I can watch. I grew up in the 50s when cars were a big deal to a lot of kids. You still see lots of the old cars here. I have seen way more '55 Chevys in 3 years in Mexico than in the previous 20 in the US.

Will


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Hmmm...someone does not realize there are two types of vehicles made in Mexico. One for US market, build with higher quality standards, and others made for Mexican market with lower quality standards and cheaper so more lower income people able to buy.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

tcreek said:


> Hmmm...someone does not realize there are two types of vehicles made in Mexico. One for US market, build with higher quality standards, and others made for Mexican market with lower quality standards and cheaper so more lower income people able to buy.


I don't have a dog in this discussion so I am just asking. How do you know this? I have always thought quality was pretty difficult to quantify. 

Will


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

He may mean that there are differences in equipment such as airbags; two vs. four, or lack of GPS in the Mexican models, etc. That doesn't necessarily equate to a difference in quality. Nor does leather vs cloth, TV or no TV, etc. They do make a difference in price, which is important in a country that is primarily a cash economy. Financing got the USA in trouble but that didn't happen in Mexico; although there is some credit available for those who don't really need it. Most homes (like 95%) in Mexico are owned outright and taxes are very, very low. Government income is from tax on gasoline and the 16% IVA included in most purchases. It is that latter fact that leads many to believe that cars are more expensive in Mexico. The tax is included in the advertised price and there is little or no 'dickering' on a new car. Often, however, you can get the first year's insurance & tags paid in the deal. No arguments; it is just different.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

On the outside you can start to see. For good example, the pickups. At first glance they look the same as the US trucks, but as you look closer you start to see differences. Then you get inside and the vehicle drives different and just seems cheaper.

After learning about their automobile industry I found out why the vehicles are lower quality and cost more. The two main reasons are protectionism, and a large sales tax on vehicles. Something like 30%.

The only way to get around this and still try make make a vehicle that the masses can drive is to make them cheaper. Take a look around how many older cars do you really see on the road? A lot still.

I was thinking of buying this compact Chevy vehicle from a guy I know. Man, did he want a lot of money for it and it did not have nothing. A very basic car indeed. In the US I could have gotten a much larger vehicle with A/C, nice stereo, all electric, etc.

I know a girl who got a new Chevy Mexican vehicle last year. It's a nice looking small car and I have driven it, but I can still tell it's Mexican made by the way it drives and performs, and other little things. It also spent a lot of time in the shop recently for work it needed. Now she cannot afford to do anything else now because most of money now goes to this vehicle. Good thing she lives with her parents else she would be paying for a vehicle she could not drive.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

OK. Two things have happened. I'm beginning to see a bit of 'another agenda' developing here and we have also wandered too far off topic. 
Let's get back to 'nationalizing' if there are any further comments.


----------



## moisheh (Jun 14, 2009)

I have read all the posts andIi do see some statements that are not 100 % correct. RV ****** is correct that if you are buying a NEW vehicle Mexico does have an excellent choice. They may not be exactly like the USA vehicles. Some things like leather, nav units and other bells and whistles will be missing. But the prices are not really that bad. However if you are buying a used vehicle your best choice will be in the USA. A good used car is a rare find in Mexico. Traditionally maintemance is not a priority. The rich could care less and the middle class sometimes do not have the tiime or the $$. Comparing classic vehicles to a normal used car is a stretch. But Mexicans do love anything classic!! Our 88 Bluebird MH gets stares from all the Mexican bus drivers. AS for the quality of Mexican built vehicles: The Ford cars produced at the Ford plant in Hermosillo have always been at the top of Ford's quality list. Model for model the Mexican vehicles may not have the pollution or safety features of those NOB but otherwise they drive and feel the same because they are the same. This whole discussion may be moot as unless something has changed a foreigner may not import a used vehicle. You have to be a Mexican national.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Here is NAFTA on the issue:




> Appendix 300-A
> 
> 24. Mexico may adopt or maintain prohibitions or restrictions on imports of used vehicles from the territory of another Party, except as follows:
> 
> ...


Based on the way this reads, ANYONE can import and/or nationalize a vehicle on a permanent basis or temporary basis without restriction.


----------



## moisheh (Jun 14, 2009)

tcreek: One should be careful not to use NOB logic in Mexico. Your understanding of the Nafta rules may be different than the way Aduana will apply the rules. As an example the duty rates on many goods are still high even though NAFTA says otherwise. I would not hold my breath for an open border on cars. Mexico will find some way to restrict the importation. The auto industry is very important to the Mexican economy. I do not blame them for trying to protect an industry that employs a lot of people. There are many laws/ regulations that apply only to Mexican nationals.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Too many folks assume that the NAFTA regulations will apply to individuals. Don't forget about the 'certificate of origin' requirement, or the 'specifications' requirements that differ between US, Canada and Mexico, making most permanent importation of cars from one country to another almost impossible; certainly much too expensive for most. The NAFTA agreements deal with 'trade', meaning import and export by manufacturers, not individuals. Yes, there are some current rules that are unique for Mexican citizens who are legal residents of the USA, returning to Mexico. Those rules don't apply to expats, as has been mentioned before.
It is the way it is.......not the way you might want it to be.


----------



## mndwgz (Sep 13, 2010)

When and IF rules do change, do you think German imports from the U.S. might catch a break? I drive a 1992 Mercedes that I really don't want to part with, I figure it's my last car... until I build another hot rod. Looking down the road, figuratively speaking, does FM2 status make a difference?


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

No, on the German or other imports not manufactured in a NAFTA country. I suppose you could import them at much higher brokerage fees, customs duty, etc. After all, you can import anything at a price. However, you might have to wait until it is an antique, or met some other qualification. Otherwise, you are free to temporarily import it, maintaining US registration, as long as your immigration status permits. You may do that with 'no inmigrante' (old FM3) status indefinitely. With 'inmigrante' (old FM2) status, you may do so for the five year period, but at the end of that time you'll be going to 'inmigrado' status or become naturalized; at which time you will no longer be permitted to keep such a vehicle in Mexico.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> Too many folks assume that the NAFTA regulations will apply to individuals. Don't forget about the 'certificate of origin' requirement, or the 'specifications' requirements that differ between US, Canada and Mexico, making most permanent importation of cars from one country to another almost impossible; certainly much too expensive for most. The NAFTA agreements deal with 'trade', meaning import and export by manufacturers, not individuals. Yes, there are some current rules that are unique for Mexican citizens who are legal residents of the USA, returning to Mexico. Those rules don't apply to expats, as has been mentioned before.
> It is the way it is.......not the way you might want it to be.



Actually, I believe you are incorrect.

Chapter 11 of NAFTA permits individuals to sue the governments of each country if said government takes actions that affect their investments. If I put money into a vehicle with the purpose to importing it into Mexico, that is my investment.

NAFTA - Chapter 11 Part 1

I will make a call to a auto dealer tomorrow about that certificate of origin. In addition, I will be taking a trip to the border later this week or next week. I then will be able to talk to those people who help you nationalize vehicles for a fee. I am sure they will have a better understanding of what if going on. 

It starts getting complicated because apparently they can tax the parts on the vehicle that did not originate within North America.

If I am not mistaken, except for a few items, I think all parts are made in North America to avoid this problem of getting taxed.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

mndwgz said:


> When and IF rules do change, do you think German imports from the U.S. might catch a break? I drive a 1992 Mercedes that I really don't want to part with, I figure it's my last car... until I build another hot rod. Looking down the road, figuratively speaking, does FM2 status make a difference?


Yes I agree with RVGRINGO. You should still be able to import it.
A couple of the wife's relatives drive identical Mini Coopers, which are made in Oxford England. I have not asked how much they paid for them. I am sure quite a pretty penny.


----------



## moisheh (Jun 14, 2009)

tc creek: Give it a rest. You are getting carried away. There is no process for a foreign individual to sue the Mexican Gov. They make the rules. You have a choice. Follow the rules as they understand them. Or return to the USA where you have more rights. RV ****** is NOT incorrect. He is being practical.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Well I am sure glad we have an expert practicing lawyer here.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

New info and can only speak for Texas. A copy of the Manufacturers Certificate of Origin is obtainable from the Texas Department of Transportation. All documents submitted on the vehicle (title transfer, etc) are put on microfice. This will certainly make things easier for nationalizing a used vehicle.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

You may then find that Mexico will only accept the original, not a copy. That happens with a lot of documents in Mexico. They want to see that raised seal, etc.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> You may then find that Mexico will only accept the original, not a copy. That happens with a lot of documents in Mexico. They want to see that raised seal, etc.


Yes this is true. I will ask them if I can get some official copy from their office.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

Update: They will certify the copy for only $1 additional.

For anyone else wanting copies you must submit a form VTR-275 which can be had off the TXDOT Web site here. The fees are listed on the document. In addition, in order to get the MCO, the vehicle must have been titled originally in Texas.


----------



## ReefHound (Aug 9, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> You may then find that Mexico will only accept the original, not a copy. That happens with a lot of documents in Mexico. They want to see that raised seal, etc.


Or have it officially translated into Spanish, he he.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The original poster started this thread with the question, "Has anyone Nationalized a used vehicle from USA since 2009?"
Four pages later, it appears that the answer is, "No".


----------



## km7648 (Apr 12, 2011)

A manufacturer's certificate of origin (MSO is the industry slang) is created by the manufacturer of cars, trucks, motorcycles, quads etc. when they are made.

The selling dealer keeps these as proof of their ownership until the vehicle is sold. The public would rarely see one. 

If it's a USA buyer, the MSO goes along with the bill of sale to the local Department of Motor Vehicles where it is traded for a Registration then a title later on. The MSO is kept by them. 

If the vehicle is being exported, there is no transfer and the MSO can stay with the buyer. 

*Hope this helps.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

km7648 said:


> A manufacturer's certificate of origin (MSO is the industry slang) is created by the manufacturer of cars, trucks, motorcycles, quads etc. when they are made.
> 
> The selling dealer keeps these as proof of their ownership until the vehicle is sold. The public would rarely see one.
> 
> ...


I talked to the state DOT where I am located. They tell me if the first sale originated in the same state, then they would have a copy of it (MSO) on microfisch. In fact they went on to state all transactions are kept on file.

It so happens I did talk with one of the many companies which nationalize vehicles to Mexico. Only about a $130 fee to process a vehicle if you can show it was built from a NAFTA country, otherwise a big import fee.


----------



## kazslo (Jun 7, 2010)

tcreek said:


> I talked to the state DOT where I am located. They tell me if the first sale originated in the same state, then they would have a copy of it (MSO) on microfisch. In fact they went on to state all transactions are kept on file.
> 
> It so happens I did talk with one of the many companies which nationalize vehicles to Mexico. Only about a $130 fee to process a vehicle if you can show it was built from a NAFTA country, otherwise a big import fee.


All the agents i've talked to, in addition to the estimator on the paisano site, have given me a price of about $1,100 for a 2001, VIN originating in Mexico. Even just a deposit for a TEMPORARY import if not putting it on a credit card is up to $400. Where did you get that number from?


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

One of the many nationalization services in Reynosa. They had some documents from Aduana thee listing the fees. If you are being told there is a $1100 USD fee, then sounds like a tax to me.


----------



## kazslo (Jun 7, 2010)

tcreek said:


> One of the many nationalization services in Reynosa. They had some documents from Aduana thee listing the fees. If you are being told there is a $1100 USD fee, then sounds like a tax to me.


The $1100 is all applicable costs, like taxes and fees, you'd have to pay to legally import the vehicle. I guess I assumed that was what your $130 meant. While it might only be $130 fee to the actual agent, you can expect to pay around $1000 after tax and duty is paid to the aduana. Even if the vehicle is nafta originating, you still have to pay tax/duty, which is the bulk of your cost.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

kazslo said:


> The $1100 is all applicable costs, like taxes and fees, you'd have to pay to legally import the vehicle. I guess I assumed that was what your $130 meant. While it might only be $130 fee to the actual agent, you can expect to pay around $1000 after tax and duty is paid to the aduana. Even if the vehicle is nafta originating, you still have to pay tax/duty, which is the bulk of your cost.


No, they told me if I could not produce the MSO then the fee would be around $3000. I specifically asked them if that was the total fees with the MSO, and they told me $130. 

If you can provide MSO which shows the vehicle made in NAFTA country, then there is no duty. I guess though, next I am in that area I can have them write me down an itemized total.


----------



## ReefHound (Aug 9, 2010)

tcreek said:


> No, they told me if I could not produce the MSO then the fee would be around $3000. I specifically asked them if that was the total fees with the MSO, and they told me $130.
> 
> If you can provide MSO which shows the vehicle made in NAFTA country, then there is no duty. I guess though, next I am in that area I can have them write me down an itemized total.


Just to clarify, is this a done deal? You paid $130 USD and now have a nationalized car in Mexico? 

Not to doubt you but when it comes to Mexico we get "told" a lot of things by a lot of people but often get told something entirely different when it comes time to actually do the deed.


----------



## tcreek (Sep 13, 2010)

No, not a done deal. I am waiting to get the MSO from the DOT.


----------



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

A certificate of origin is what the vehicle manufacturer sends to the dealership for a brand new vehicle. I have purchased new vehicles before and this certificate is what you use to go get the title issued into your name. Usually the dept of motor vehicles takes it, but I always ask for a copy for my records. Basically, it is the form from the manufacturer you get to go get a title, but you will only see it if you buy it outright, otherwise the bank gets it.


----------



## Mexstan (Nov 20, 2009)

RVGRINGO said:


> I'm always impressed by the lengths that most folks will go to in an attempt to find a way to bring an old car to Mexico. Frankly, it just isn't worth the trouble and the expense. If you want to use the vehicle for your move to Mexico, OK, but if it isn't reliable enough to drive back out some years later, you might be wise to simply drive it out after the move, sell it for what you can get and take a bus or flight back to your home in Mexico. Then, buy what you want in Mexico, new or used. There is the added advantage of never having to import and export your foreign plated car whenever you go back north to visit. With Mexican plates, there is no such inconvenience. It also seems that Mexico offers a much wider choice of vehicles, especially smaller economy cars & pickup trucks. By the way, there is a tax advantage to having a pickup; no tenencia.


For years I drove a couple of US registered vehicles in Mexico but as you said, it became too much of a pain with trying to keep the state inspections and US insurance up to date for my trips back north. Yes, in many ways the US used vehicles are nicer, but the tradeoff is no longer worth it. Just bought a nice used Mexican registered SUV ricer for my wife and it is loaded with everything, so why go thru the hassle any more?

On the other hand, I have a 2003 diesel Dodge 2500 which I do intend to make Mexican next year. Bought it new. It is a real heavy duty 2500 and not a wimpy rebadged 1500. I need it to pull my 5th wheel RV. This vehicle is not available in Mexico.


----------

