# Fosse Septic



## adwils

In process of buying property Mayenne area. Looking at an suitable house but doesn't have a fosse. Current ownr told me I had to have one installed within 1 year.
How strict is this rule if right.
Also what would be the penalty if I didn't get one installed?. Someone told me there was a fine of 50euro/year. Is this BS?

Thanks


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## LesFroggitts

So there's nothing there at all? Or do they mean it is non-conforming.

Either way, the "rule" is that you should have a compliant systems (obviously excluding those properties on mains) within a year, this would "often" be checked upon by SPANC (they would also need to approve anything you're installing). If there is one and it's still notn-compliant after then year then yes there would normally be a small annual inspection and penalty. Although many people (and don't say I said this) don't bother and just pay the fine annually if their system works well enough.

Also, even if you do have a compliant system, there may in some areas/communes still be an annual charge - they just caught up with me (they were sending the bills to Dubai) for about €16,50 per year.


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## Crabtree

If there isn't one then it is clearly a health hazard.A seller needs to have a certificate of conformity(yes/No) to show the buyer and notaire the state of the fosse.This costs money as the inspection has to be done by SPANC.It could well be that there is not a fosse(is it on mains?) but I suspect that there is and the seller does not want to fork out for the inspection costs.The Mairie will be able to tell you when the fosse was installed.If there is no fosse then you are looking at serious fines if you allow raw sewage to pollute the area and you will need to install a fosse anyway Personally I would find another house


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## adwils

LesFroggitts said:


> So there's nothing there at all? Or do they mean it is non-conforming.
> 
> Either way, the "rule" is that you should have a compliant systems (obviously excluding those properties on mains) within a year, this would "often" be checked upon by SPANC (they would also need to approve anything you're installing). If there is one and it's still notn-compliant after then year then yes there would normally be a small annual inspection and penalty. Although many people (and don't say I said this) don't bother and just pay the fine annually if their system works well enough.
> 
> Also, even if you do have a compliant system, there may in some areas/communes still be an annual charge - they just caught up with me (they were sending the bills to Dubai) for about €16,50 per year.


Yeah, thtere's nothing there. It runs underground into a ditch in a farmers field. been like that for 40+ years and worked quite well I'm told.

So if nothing is done the SPANC would check it annually (even if nothing had changed) and issue a penalty.
As it has worked well it doesn't seem worth spending 10k euro if it's only a 50euro fine.


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## adwils

Crabtree said:


> If there isn't one then it is clearly a health hazard.A seller needs to have a certificate of conformity(yes/No) to show the buyer and notaire the state of the fosse.This costs money as the inspection has to be done by SPANC.It could well be that there is not a fosse(is it on mains?) but I suspect that there is and the seller does not want to fork out for the inspection costs.The Mairie will be able to tell you when the fosse was installed.If there is no fosse then you are looking at serious fines if you allow raw sewage to pollute the area and you will need to install a fosse anyway Personally I would find another house


There's nothing there so no certificate. It's not on mains either, served by a well with the farmer.
It's been like that for many years I'm told, I think the farmer has the same system as the houses are quite near.

In many respects the house is ideal and the price reflects the lack of fosse, mains water so I am still considering it.


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## LesFroggitts

adwils said:


> Yeah, thtere's nothing there. It runs underground into a ditch in a farmers field. been like that for 40+ years and worked quite well I'm told.
> 
> So if nothing is done the SPANC would check it annually (even if nothing had changed) and issue a penalty.
> As it has worked well it doesn't seem worth spending 10k euro if it's only a 50euro fine.


So everything, solids and paper etc just run into the ditch? Not good.

Personally I would run away from it - the environmental problems could be quite shocking.


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## Bevdeforges

Or, I suppose, you could always accept the fact that the price is so low because you will have to put in a septic system. (Not all towns allow new fosses if they are trying to get to all-mains.) Is the price as good if you assume you're going to have to install a septic system? Definitely talk to the mairie to find out what your options are.


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## adwils

LesFroggitts said:


> So everything, solids and paper etc just run into the ditch? Not good.
> 
> Personally I would run away from it - the environmental problems could be quite shocking.


I get the environment bit, but this has been the "system" for 40+ years.
In time I would put in the fosse. My question really concerned the implications of not having it done for a few years.

I'm sure many houses without a fosse have had one installed since they became "mandatory". 
If everyone followed your logic and ran away, no house without a fosse would never be sold.


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## BackinFrance

adwils said:


> I get the environment bit, but this has been the "system" for 40+ years.
> In time I would put in the fosse. My question really concerned the implications of not having it done for a few years.
> 
> I'm sure many houses without a fosse have had one installed since they became "mandatory".
> If everyone followed your logic and ran away, no house without a fosse would never be sold.


Don’t forget that the requirements could change significantly, not least after next year's French elections. 

And it is a public health and environmental hazard. 

Also lots of homes in France will be un sellable in coming years because of the rules that will apply to in terms of energy use, so clearly rendering homes unsellable is not considered a reason not to take action.


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## 512346

Never ever buy a house that needs a fosse...that is my opinion.

One big headache from whatever way you look at it.


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## adwils

BackinFrance said:


> Don’t forget that the requirements could change significantly, not least after next year's French elections.
> 
> And it is a public health and environmental hazard.
> 
> Also lots of homes in France will be un sellable in coming years because of the rules that will apply to in terms of energy use, so clearly rendering homes unsellable is not considered a reason not to take action.


So even if you spent a wedge on a fosse, you'd still be shafted if there was poor energy use.
Sounds like never buy a house in France unless it's updated. But then another expensive rule could be introduced.


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## 512346

adwils said:


> Sounds like never buy a house in France unless it's updated. But then another expensive rule could be introduced.


Yes...to your first and second point.

I am guessing you want a cheap house in France.

It may in the short term be cheap. In the long term....not so much.

Never buy a house with a fosse.


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## BackinFrance

adwils said:


> So even if you spent a wedge on a fosse, you'd still be shafted if there was poor energy use.
> Sounds like never buy a house in France unless it's updated. But then another expensive rule could be introduced.


It really is only a problem when you buy a place dirt cheap. Why do you think it's dirt cheap?


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## Peasant

Smeg said:


> Never buy a house with a fosse.


At least 5 million homes in France use septic tanks and, for the most part, the technology works quite well.

All you have to do is maintain them properly.


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## Befuddled

There has been a load of misinformation on this subject on pretty much every expat forum for the last nine or more years. You do not have to have a conforming fosse in order to sell a house. Along with a diagnostique report that details energy efficiency, lead content, asbestos content, insect infestation, etc. you do need to have an official Spanc inspection and the results of which are to be made available to any prospective buyer. I bought my place with no inspection, because the seller said there was no fosse to inspect. There was in fact a fosse but whereabouts unknown. About three years after moving in I had a Spanc inspector come around. He determined that there was no pollution to be found, left me a copy of his report and departed. No annual penalty, no threats, no 30,000 euro fine, zilch! A completely different result would have unfolded if there was any pollution of the environment detected. Understandably so. The system mentioned above where the effluent goes into a ditch/well or similar and then disperses into a farmer's field is not a million miles from the way an up to date approved system works. The main difference will be the facility for easy inspection and maintenance. Back in 2012 or even before, the sewage issue was a big deal and over the years the government has changed and backtracked many times. The ideas are evolving all the time. One thing is evident. They can not expect everyone to upgrade to their latest solution without serious financial outlay. Not everyone in France can dip into petty cash and stump up 10 to 20K to satisfy the latest "green" regs. The government is bright enough to know this.


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## BackinFrance

Peasant said:


> At least 5 million homes in France use septic tanks and, for the most part, the technology works quite well.
> 
> All you have to do is maintain them properly.


Not really, they all pollute groundwater and from there waterways and oceans. They all have a negative environmental impact that can also impact on human beings. There are lots of alternatives that have been known of for decades, but of course, they come at a cost. France has been behind in this regard for decades, though properly managing and using your fosse is better than nothing. 

In terms of the subject of this thread, you can only imagine the impact on whatever it is that the farmer produces, product that hundreds or thousands of people could be unwittingly purchasing and consuming, effectively with the the sole aim of saving a few land holders money, and they have apparently been doing so for over 40 years so they have had decades to come up with an alternative.


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## tardigrade

Yeah, €50 a month is a joke. It should be much higher so it forces homeowners to update or renew or in this case - install. 

It is also a joke that you can sell a house with a non conforming one or not one at all.


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## BackinFrance

tardigrade said:


> Yeah, €50 a month is a joke. It should be much higher so it forces homeowners to update or renew or in this case - install.
> 
> It is also a joke that you can sell a house with a non conforming one or not one at all.


I don't often agree with you, but there are always exceptions.


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## Aloysius_

Peasant wrote:


> At least 5 million homes in France use septic tanks and, for the most part, the technology works quite well.
> All you have to do is maintain them properly.


BackinFrance responded with:


> Not really, they all pollute groundwater and from there waterways and oceans. They all have a negative environmental impact that can also impact on human beings


I'm sorry, but as a professional hydrogeologist with over four decades of experience in several countries dealing with groundwater contamination, I have to disagree with BackinFrance on this point. Septic tanks are a compromise solution to wastewater disposal. There's really no doubt about that. But a properly functioning septic tank has a very limited effect on groundwater quality, with no material impact on surface water or (give me a break) oceans.

Certainly, a poorly-functioning septic tank can adversely affect groundwater quality in a small area, especially with respect to chloride, nitrate, and bacteriological contamination. But such effects are neither widespread nor areally persistent enough to have any noticeable or measurable effect on surface water or oceans except in very extraordinary circumstances.

To suggest that a septic tank at a rural home in, say, any location more than a kilometer or so from the shore could affect the quality of water in the ocean is, well, silly.

Septic tanks, les fosses septiques, are a suitable wastewater management option for residential properties if the septic systems are well designed, properly constructed, and maintained appropriately. And even a negative conclusion by a diagnostic technique on a septic system is not necessarily an indication of an environmental problem. Having too few access points or too small a diameter venting system can lead to getting a negative conclusion on a diagnostic technique even if the system functions perfectly well with respect to treating wastewater and limiting environmental effects on groundwater quality.

I'm not a fan of septic tanks but they're not a major problem in many areas. In contrast, they're rarely a problem except in highly localized, exceptional, cases.


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## BackinFrance

Totally disagree, they are a problem and there are a great many in France. 

There is lots of data on the matter.


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## Aloysius_

Of course you can disagree. That doesn't mean your opinion is correct or well informed. And that's OK. 
But I would suggest you keep an open mind for those with particular education, knowledge, and extensive expertise in the area in which you dabble.


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## BackinFrance

Don't accuse me of dabbling. As I said, there is a lot of data out there. As with all contentious issues, there are specialists who will assure you there's no problem, and specialists of the opposite view. Hydrologists are not the only specialists on the matter either, they also include geologists etc. Studies of worth are those conducted by a range of relevant specialists.


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## Bevdeforges

As the old saying goes, folks, Let's "agree to disagree" and move on.


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## Crabtree

Basically if you look after a fosse it will look after you and the land that we are only custodians of anyway so surely we should make the effort to keep our waste water systems up to date and functioning well


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## BraveHorse

My father bought a house without a fosse septique, so he had one installed but that was no big deal. I think he paid something like 6000 €.


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## Befuddled

€6,000 is a very big deal if you don't have it to spend. And even up to double that price if your soil permeability or available space clear of watercourses or wells is inadequate.


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## Peasant

BackinFrance said:


> Totally disagree, they are a problem and there are a great many in France.


So. It's your knowledge vs that of a professional hydrogeologist with over four decades of experience in several countries dealing with groundwater contamination...


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## Peasant

Befuddled said:


> €6,000 is a very big deal if you don't have it to spend.


But a small deal if you've just bought a house for €100,000 and have, properly, budgeted €20,000 or so for extras.


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## BackinFrance

Do you all realise this is an old thread, resurrected today for no apparent reason, though perhaps it appeared in 'recommended reading' at the bottom of another thread.


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## Befuddled

Peasant said:


> But a small deal if you've just bought a house for €100,000 and have, properly, budgeted €20,000 or so for extras.


I am aware of people having that sort of money (and more) to spend. Good luck to them. I had only €50k to spend. I found an almost habitable house without electrics or fosse and negotiated it down to just under €44k, leaving me €6k to live on for the next four years until my UK pension kicked in. I'd be happy to hear how anyone in those circumstances could afford to throw X thousands at a fosse installation.


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## Peasant

Befuddled said:


> I am aware of people having that sort of money (and more) to spend. Good luck to them. I had only €50k to spend. I found an almost habitable house without electrics or fosse and negotiated it down to just under €44k, leaving me €6k to live on for the next four years until my UK pension kicked in. I'd be happy to hear how anyone in those circumstances could afford to throw X thousands at a fosse installation.


Better planning perhaps.


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