# Elections May 24th 2015



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Participation so far down on 2011

*14.36* Cataluña registra a esta hora un 32,17% de participación; Madrid, un 34,64%. Se aprecian ligeros descensos frente a 2011. 
*14.33* La *participación* registrada a las 14.00 horas alcanza el *34,76*%. En 2011 la participación a la misma hora fue del 35,81%, por lo que la participación en estos comicios baja un punto respecto a hace cuatro años. Así lo han explicado la secretaria de Estado de Comunicación, Carmen Martínez de Castro, y el subsecretario de Estado del Ministerio del Interior, Luis Aguilera.
*14.28* La participación de voto al *Parlamento de Canarias* registrada en el primer avance, hasta las 13 horas, se ha situado en el 27,63%, lo que supone un descenso de casi un punto porcentual respecto al dato de hace 4 años, cuando se situó en el 28,34 por ciento.

Directo | elecciones municipales y autonómicas 2015: sondeos y resultados | Economía | Cinco Días


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Steady flow at our local mesas.

Just taking a break from my strenuous work as apoderadosa..(polling station has bar/café attached, saying no more)....


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

In Andalucia too, participation is reported to be 4.5% lower than in 2011, as at 14.00 today. Rather disappointing in view of what's been happening regarding corruption and how much many people are suffering.

Directo | Las municipales miden el tirón de los alcaldes ante la ola de cambio . SUR.es

We went to our polliing station at 11.30 am and there were far more staff, observers and policemen than voters around.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Steady flow at our local mesas.
> 
> Just taking a break from my strenuous work as apoderadosa..(polling station has bar/café attached, saying no more)....


apoderada??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> apoderada??


No, my credential states 'apoderadosa'...

Had lunch, back to work now. I'm really irritated by Brits who come in to vote, seemingly don't know a word of Spanish, don't know how to vote, complain loudly that only one 'official' person here speaks English....
I'd put money on them being the type that would vote for the right-wing candidate wherever they found themselves.
And who no doubt moan about non-English -speaking immigrants being allowed to vote in the UK.
I have a fit of extreme deafness when I see these people looking bewildered and casting around for help...
Can't help myself...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No, my credential states 'apoderadosa'...
> 
> Had lunch, back to work now. I'm really irritated by Brits who come in to vote, seemingly don't know a word of Spanish, don't know how to vote, complain loudly that only one 'official' person here speaks English....
> I'd put money on them being the type that would vote for the right-wing candidate wherever they found themselves.
> ...


Well, I think you've been given a spelling mistake!

I was number 19 on a list of about 20 foreigners on the voting list at my electoral station. We must be quite evenly distributed amongst the other 3 stations.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

just heard that 37% of those registered to vote in Jávea had voted by 2pm 


A total of 16,272 residents are registered to vote, of whom 12,483 were born in Spain, and 3,789 (about 23%) are of foreign origin, mainly from Europe of course, and some from non-EU countries which have reciprocal voting agreements.

Although the number of people on the padrón has decreased since 2011, the number of registered voters has increased slightly since the last election when it stood at 15,845 voters. Of these 60.8% actually voted.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

In polling station in Madrid my SIL sees police intervene to stop PP playing with voting slips. And they want to be treated seriously???


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> No, my credential states 'apoderadosa'...
> 
> Had lunch, back to work now. I'm really irritated by Brits who come in to vote, seemingly don't know a word of Spanish, don't know how to vote, complain loudly that only one 'official' person here speaks English....
> I'd put money on them being the type that would vote for the right-wing candidate wherever they found themselves.
> ...


Do they actually know what each of the Spanish Parties stand for, I wonder?

But at least they bother to turn up to vote, which is something I suppose. I've only met one other British person today and when I asked him if he was voting, he looked at me as if I were mad.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

alborino said:


> In polling station in Madrid my SIL sees police intervene to stop PP playing with voting slips. And they want to be treated seriously???


Define playing with.
When you vote, the paper is inside an envelope and the voter puts it into a transparent box, untouched by the people on the table.
The slips that are put in the envelopes are laid out on tables or in a curtained booth. They are laid out by the people working.
I'm wondering how the PP, or anyone could play with them in a way that would affect voting.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

PP were denounced here by the PSOE for campaigning after midnight the day before the election, which is illegal. They were caught at 00.45 a.m. putting leaflets on car windows.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> PP were denounced here by the PSOE for campaigning after midnight the day before the election, which is illegal. They were caught at 00.45 a.m. putting leaflets on car windows.


what was the outcome?

a couple of our local candidates were 'campaigning' on FB yesterday - not as overtly as in the past two weeks, but still campaigning


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> what was the outcome?
> 
> a couple of our local candidates were 'campaigning' on FB yesterday - not as overtly as in the past two weeks, but still campaigning


I'll let you know - just seen it on the PSOE Facebook page.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

at one of our polling stations, an observer thought they saw someone put two envelopes in the box

the box was immediately replaced, the envelopes counted - & hey presto there was one more envelope than there should have been

they haven''t actually decided what to do about it yet, apparently......


& in Denia some foreigners have managed to vote in both elections.........

Las incidencias marcan el inicio de la campaña electoral en la Marina Alta . Las Provincias


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> at one of our polling stations, an observer thought they saw someone put two envelopes in the box
> 
> the box was immediately replaced, the envelopes counted - & hey presto there was one more envelope than there should have been
> 
> ...


I cannot see why we are not allowed to vote in both as we live here/pay our taxes here ETC.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Define playing with.
> When you vote, the paper is inside an envelope and the voter puts it into a transparent box, untouched by the people on the table.
> The slips that are put in the envelopes are laid out on tables or in a curtained booth. They are laid out by the people working.
> I'm wondering how the PP, or anyone could play with them in a way that would affect voting.


I have spoken with her and one incident as she saw it was representatives of the PP tried to mix the piles of list forms and then themselves call the police to complain of irregularity.

She says she can see that most representatives are happy and smiling but the PP guys seem very nervous and they are watching them carefully.

Personally I'm amazed people manipulate a few votes. It is unlikely to make much difference. But they do try. But great to see signs of desperation by the PP. 

At least my long term unemployed SIL is getting 300 Euros


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

VFR said:


> I cannot see why we are not allowed to vote in both as we live here/pay our taxes here ETC.


some who live here & pay taxes can't vote at all


I'd like to vote in all the elections including the nationals - but for now it will just have to be the locals & EU - thems the rules


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

This is my first election in Spain, so I am still learning. Do you always vote for the party and not individual candidates here?

For the mayor Barcelona, it is a close race between the center right incumbent party (CiU) and the newer leftist party (BeC). In the US, close elections usually go to the candidates with the most money which seems to be CiU. I'm interested to see if Spanish elections have any similarity to US elections.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

When do results start coming in?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> at one of our polling stations, an observer thought they saw someone put two envelopes in the box
> 
> the box was immediately replaced, the envelopes counted - & hey presto there was one more envelope than there should have been
> 
> ...


At our polling station, the man behind the desk (one of several, each solemnly checking something different) took the envelopes from us, presumably to check they were properly sealed and there wasn't more than one, before handing them back to us and uncovering the slot in the box for us to place them inside. The slot stays covered by a sheet of paper until someone wants to put their envelope in the box.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> At our polling station, the man behind the desk (one of several, each solemnly checking something different) took the envelopes from us, presumably to check they were properly sealed and there wasn't more than one, before handing them back to us and uncovering the slot in the box for us to place them inside. The slot stays covered by a sheet of paper until someone wants to put their envelope in the box.


no-one took our envelopes - & they don't have to be sealed - just tucked in is fine

same with the slot though - covered with paper until you're about to put your envelope in

was just chatting on FB with someone in Quesada - she & her OH & quite possibly other foreigners have voted in both elections

they had both envelopes (as did I) & had no idea that they weren't supposed to use them... & no-one stopped them......


meanwhile in Lleida the PP candidate managed to vote twice 'by mistake 
La candidata del PP en Lleida vota dos veces por "error de la mesa"


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> At our polling station, the man behind the desk (one of several, each solemnly checking something different) took the envelopes from us, presumably to check they were properly sealed and there wasn't more than one, before handing them back to us and uncovering the slot in the box for us to place them inside. The slot stays covered by a sheet of paper until someone wants to put their envelope in the box.


Same here.

Personally I would not trust the PP an inch, here they are devious, self-serving and do not represent the whole village (not just by votes but in their actions - there is some discrimination.

Interesting what you say about slips on the table. I didn't notice any out at our polling station. I just use those that are dropped in our mailbox. I'm curious - do they actually open every envelope or just count the envelopes which are slightly different PP v PSOE (we only have the two parties here.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Same here.
> 
> Personally I would not trust the PP an inch, here they are devious, self-serving and do not represent the whole village (not just by votes but in their actions - there is some discrimination.
> 
> Interesting what you say about slips on the table. I didn't notice any out at our polling station. I just use those that are dropped in our mailbox. I'm curious - do they actually open every envelope or just count the envelopes which are slightly different PP v PSOE (we only have the two parties here.


The envelopes are the same. They open every envelope and put the slips into different piles according to the party. 

There are spare slips for each party in a booth curtained off from view, a few feet from away the desk.

The 6 pm report showed the turnout had reached 49.78%, about the same as in 2011. Madrid is 3 points up on last time and Barcelona 8 points up.

It all finishes at 8 pm and the results will start coming in soon after.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The envelopes are the same. They open every envelope and put the slips into different piles according to the party.
> 
> There are spare slips for each party in a booth curtained off from view, a few feet from away the desk.
> 
> The 6 pm report showed the turnout had reached 49.78%, about the same as in 2011.


same here re: the curtained off area

though 3 of the 5 parties standing here whose manifestos we received, did include an envelope with a slip for their party in it - all envelopes were the same

our 6pm report showed just under 49%, which is slightly down on last time


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The envelopes are the same. They open every envelope and put the slips into different piles according to the party.
> 
> There are spare slips for each party in a booth curtained off from view, a few feet from away the desk.
> 
> ...


Our envelopes are different. The PSOE has a lighter colour grey shading on the inside; the flap is pointed (PP is rounded); the white margins (round the grey shading) are different (visible on the outside); the constructions of the envelopes are different and the fonts used for the printing on the outside are different, meaning that the envelopes are easily differentiated, so, assuming the voter has used the same party's slip as the envelope, i.e. not swapped them to confuse anyone trying to see which party one has voted for, anyone watching can see who has voted for which party.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Our envelopes are different. The PSOE has a lighter colour grey shading on the inside; the flap is pointed (PP is rounded); the white margins (round the grey shading) are different (visible on the outside); the constructions of the envelopes are different and the fonts used for the printing on the outside are different, meaning that the envelopes are easily differentiated, so, assuming the voter has used the same party's slip as the envelope, i.e. not swapped them to confuse anyone trying to see which party one has voted for, anyone watching can see who has voted for which party.


Interesting. But they will still have to open them and check to see if there are any _nulos_ (slips with things written on them) or _blancos_ (empty envelopes).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

skip o said:


> This is my first election in Spain, so I am still learning. Do you always vote for the party and not individual candidates here?
> 
> For the mayor Barcelona, it is a close race between the center right incumbent party (CiU) and the newer leftist party (BeC). In the US, close elections usually go to the candidates with the most money which seems to be CiU. I'm interested to see if Spanish elections have any similarity to US elections.


Here it is proportional representation. This means you vote for your choice of party. The slips list the candidates in order of selection so if a party gets a third of the votes then the top third of their candidates is elected to serve, and so on.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> some who live here & pay taxes can't vote at all
> 
> 
> I'd like to vote in all the elections including the nationals - but for now it will just have to be the locals & EU - thems the rules


Yes I know they are the rules but still find it odd.

BTW Baldi why did you like Xabia's reply.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

VFR said:


> Yes I know they are the rules but still find it odd.
> 
> BTW Baldi why did you like Xabia's reply.


Because I agree with her second sentence:


> I'd like to vote in all the elections including the nationals - but for now it will just have to be the locals & EU


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

alborino said:


> I have spoken with her and one incident as she saw it was representatives of the PP tried to mix the piles of list forms and then themselves call the police to complain of irregularity.
> 
> She says she can see that most representatives are happy and smiling but the PP guys seem very nervous and they are watching them carefully.
> 
> ...


Don't think I'm defending PP, but that seems more like bad tidying up skills than an attempt to manipulate votes. In my polling stations beween the two votes that most people had there must have been about twenty lists of candidates, or more. They are all the same size and there were only two different colour papers, but most were printed on white paper, so you need to *read* the list and make sure that you put the paper that you want, in the envelope that you want..

The envelopes that you get through the post may be slightly different, but the envelopes used in the polling stations are all the same so they'd better open them up and count them!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Looks like PP has won in Valencia, probably the most openly corrupt city in Europe.

It's very, very difficult to understand why exactly people vote PP in this city.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

PSOE win 6:5


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

exactly what we were just saying PW - how the heck can people vote them back in!?!

the great news is that we have a PSOE landslide in Jávea - we knew we'd get the most seats - the problem was who we'd have a coalition with, since our previous coalition partners (with whom the ayto had worked really well) had set themselves against us with a pretty nasty campaign


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> exactly what we were just saying PW - how the heck can people vote them back in!?!
> 
> the great news is that we have a PSOE landslide in Jávea - we knew we'd get the most seats - the problem was who we'd have a coalition with, since our previous coalition partners (with whom the ayto had worked really well) had set themselves against us with a pretty nasty campaign


Congratulations xabiachica!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> exactly what we were just saying PW - how the heck can people vote them back in!?!
> 
> the great news is that we have a PSOE landslide in Jávea - we knew we'd get the most seats - the problem was who we'd have a coalition with, since our previous coalition partners (with whom the ayto had worked really well) had set themselves against us with a pretty nasty campaign


The first thought is that practically everyone in the city is somehow benefitting from having corrupt politicians in power, but if only people could see longer term than the next favour that gets handed out, then they'd see that it's a no go, no prosper way to nowhere.

Or maybe people are too scared to not vote PP,and that would be extremely disturbing.

Alternatively Rita's been slipping something into the Valencian Paella that has turned everyone in the vicinity doolally


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> exactly what we were just saying PW - how the heck can people vote them back in!?!


Just as they voted Camoron back in, in the UK


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> some who live here & pay taxes can't vote at all


That would be me.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Just as they voted Camoron back in, in the UK


it is closer than it was though - so it's moving away 

PP have 29 seats & PSOE 25 this time - Compromís have 19


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

PP won here. 
Not a big surprise.
But, not absolute majority and a Podemos kind of party was the second most voted, so that is in fact a big change


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, it could have been worse...but I'm not sure how, at this moment. Estepona resultP 17PSOE 6 Podemos 1 IU 1.
I shall sleep with the sound 'PP' ringing in my ears as the votes were called out.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, it could have been worse...but I'm not sure how, at this moment. Estepona resultP 17PSOE 6 Podemos 1 IU 1.
> I shall sleep with the sound 'PP' ringing in my ears as the votes were called out.


Good grief.
I hope at least it was more or less expected


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

From another thread


> Originally Posted by *mrypg9*
> _...Podemos came a poor third or fourth in most places. The bubble has burst.
> As forecast._


 I can't agree with you there. I think the alternative parties did pretty well, at least in the areas that I've looked at, considering above all the length of time that they've been operating which is some instances is months. If they'd been a bit more solid and a bit more organised they could have got a third more votes in my opinion, but it should be recognised that what they have done is actually extraordinary.
I am diasappointed, although not surprised sadly that such large numbers voted for the PP. 

Maybe the vote should be taken away from the Spanish electorate as they seem to be incapable of using it in a responsible fashion.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> exactly what we were just saying PW - how the heck can people vote them back in!?!
> 
> the great news is that we have a PSOE landslide in Jávea - we knew we'd get the most seats - the problem was who we'd have a coalition with, since our previous coalition partners (with whom the ayto had worked really well) had set themselves against us with a pretty nasty campaign


The latest voting news I heard on our local forum,was that PSOE has 14 seats out of the 27, so happy to have a caring Mayor back for a second term of office. So happy for Jose and his band of hard workers.:first:


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - I'm currently back in the UK, albeit temporarily, but have been receiving euphoric 'Whatsapp' messages, all evening, from Spanish friends in Cádiz, Barcelona and Madrid! They are all supporters of Podemos and/ or other smaller parties on the Left and are absolutely thrilled at the gains made, to date! Here's the UK's 'Guardian' newspaper's early report, published online: 

Spain's indignados out to conquer city halls after elections success | World news | The Guardian

Saludos, 
GC.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I'm currently back in the UK, albeit temporarily, but have been receiving euphoric 'Whatsapp' messages, all evening, from Spanish friends in Cádiz, Barcelona and Madrid! They are all supporters of Podemos and/ or other smaller parties on the Left and are absolutely thrilled at the gains made, to date! Here's the UK's 'Guardian' newspaper's early report, published online:
> 
> Spain's indignados out to conquer city halls after elections success | World news | The Guardian
> 
> ...


Hi again - I'm still awake ( it's easy, when you're nocturnal by nature..) and checking out more English language press reports on the election results. This one was published in response to exit poll statistics, earlier yesterday: 

Spain Elections 2015: Exit Polls Show Small, Liberal Parties Threatening Ruling Groups In Cities Like Madrid

Saludos, GC.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - Wow; a hurricane( metaphorically speaking) just blew through the city of Cádiz! The Mayor for the past 18 years, PP's Teófila Martinez, has apparently been deposed, to the exultation of the 69% of unemployed young people under 30 years of age, not to mention the thousands of families evicted/ facing eviction from their homes in this, the poverty- stricken capital city of Cádiz province..! 

'Kichi', the triumphant Gaditano candidate for the role of 'Mayor', on behalf of the brand new 'Por Cádiz, Sisepuedes' ( supported by Podemos), is a much loved and well- respected character, who spent years working in the 'Ayuntamiento'', under the jurisdiction of the then ruling PP - he's determined to clean up the City Council's act - and knows exactly where to start...!
Adiós, Teófila ( Por fin)!

TeÃ³fila pierde la mayorÃ­a absoluta y ve peligrar la AlcaldÃ­a

Saludos,
GC.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - Wow; a hurricane( metaphorically speaking) just blew through the city of Cádiz! The Mayor for the past 18 years, PP's Teófila Martinez, has apparently been deposed, to the exultation of the 69% of unemployed young people under 30 years of age, not to mention the thousands of families evicted/ facing eviction from their homes in this, the poverty- stricken capital city of Cádiz province..!
> 
> 'Kichi', the triumphant Gaditano candidate for the role of 'Mayor', on behalf of the brand new 'Por Cádiz, Sisepuedes' ( supported by Podemos), is a much loved and well- respected character, who spent years working in the 'Ayuntamiento'', under the jurisdiction of the then ruling PP - he's determined to clean up the City Council's act - and knows exactly where to start...!
> Adiós, Teófila ( Por fin)!
> ...


Yup over the moon with that. In the autumn we move south to Puerto de SM and my son-in-law can join us as there will be lots of work building prisons once the keys are handed over 

As podemos supporters we are all very pleased. The launch pad has been constructed. PSOE has taken a pounding. Now time to turn our strength on to the PP :boxing:

Well when the Cava stops flowing in a day or two


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

fergie said:


> The latest voting news I heard on our local forum,was that PSOE has 14 seats out of the 27, so happy to have a caring Mayor back for a second term of office. So happy for Jose and his band of hard workers.:first:


14 out of 21 with 11 needed to govern. 
Lots of happy people went to bed very late last night. 
Some of us still have to be at work this morning though.....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Maybe the vote should be taken away from the Spanish electorate as they seem to be incapable of using it in a responsible fashion.


Same in UK


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## Guest (May 25, 2015)

Happy days! The winds of change are blowing in the Marina Alta.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> Yup over the moon with that. In the autumn we move south to Puerto de SM and my son-in-law can join us as there will be lots of work building prisons once the keys are handed over
> 
> As podemos supporters we are all very pleased. The launch pad has been constructed. PSOE has taken a pounding. Now time to turn our strength on to the PP :boxing:
> 
> Well when the Cava stops flowing in a day or two


PSOE taken a pounding?? Podemos WON one city in the whole of Spain...dream on. PP still took most of the vote overall, PSOE a good second.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Same in UK


Why not abolish voting altogether if the result doesn't please you

It's arrogant and a big mistake to think that people who don't agree with us are stupid.
Incidentally I predict a PPwin in November. Narrow but a victory.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Same in UK


 I love this need to criticise everything in the UK. Never any data, never any thoughts, not on topic, just pure hatred of everything British. 

Seems odd when you live in what many consider a failed state but do better than most with UK income. And life in the UK for many Spaniards forced abroad is great. And I get no complaints from 2 members of my spanish family who depend on my UK business.

Don't get me wrong there are many problems in the UK but you'd think from these short abrupt comments that the UK was North Korea


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

In response to those comments re my saying that perhaps the vote should be taken away from many in UK:

They have just had five years of a government that is in the hands of big business and the well-to-do and takes away from those most in need with little or no thought because "They're all right Jack" but the electorate still votes them back in - that is masochism to the extreme. The Tories vowed to reduce the deficits, etc but they are worse now than they were when they were first elected. The Tories blame those deficits on Labour policies, ignoring the fact that the recession which affected many countries was caused by the banks and the collapse started in the USA.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> In response to those comments re my saying that perhaps the vote should be taken away from many in UK:
> 
> They have just had five years of a government that is in the hands of big business and the well-to-do and takes away from those most in need with little or no thought because "They're all right Jack" but the electorate still votes them back in - that is masochism to the extreme. The Tories vowed to reduce the deficits, etc but they are worse now than they were when they were first elected. The Tories blame those deficits on Labour policies, ignoring the fact that the recession which affected many countries was caused by the banks and the collapse started in the USA.


Masochism is a choice freely made.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> I love this need to criticise everything in the UK. Never any data, never any thoughts, not on topic, just pure hatred of everything British.
> 
> Seems odd when you live in what many consider a failed state but do better than most with UK income. And life in the UK for many Spaniards forced abroad is great. And I get no complaints from 2 members of my spanish family who depend on my UK business.
> 
> Don't get me wrong there are many problems in the UK but you'd think from these short abrupt comments that the UK was North Korea


Instead of blaming the electorate for using their vote in the 'wrong' way the losers should be asking the important questions'Why did my opponent win?' and 'Why did I lose?'
I think I know why we lost here and we need a major rethink in approach and strategy.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Looks like PP has won in Valencia, probably the most openly corrupt city in Europe.
> 
> It's very, very difficult to understand why exactly people vote PP in this city.


I'm not so sure:

Elecciones 2015: El PP se hunde en la Comunidad Valenciana, gobernar? la izquierda | EL MUNDO


Why people continue tyo vote PP in Valencia really baffles me:

Why Valencia is paying the high price of rampant political corruption | In English | EL PAÃ�S



> With public debt levels of around €40 billion – equivalent to 40 percent of its GDP – the regional government of Valencia is only able to pay its bills thanks to financing from a special fund set up by the central government.
> 
> The region no longer even has a financial system: it has lost its CAM regional savings bank, and the Banco de Valencia now belongs to Catalonia’s CaixaBank. The regional government has closed down broadcaster Canal 9 after allowing it to run up a €1.2 billion debt; it has sold the Terra Mítica theme park, along with Castellón airport; and it is selling off flagship projects such as the City of Arts and Sciences and the Ciudad de la Luz film studios.
> 
> A child born in Valencia today comes into the world owing €100,000, while around a third of the region’s population, spread across the three provinces of Alicante, Valencia and Castellón, lives close to the poverty line...


I really don't understand it.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> In response to those comments re my saying that perhaps the vote should be taken away from many in UK:
> 
> They have just had five years of a government that is in the hands of big business and the well-to-do and takes away from those most in need with little or no thought because "They're all right Jack" but the electorate still votes them back in - that is masochism to the extreme. The Tories vowed to reduce the deficits, etc but they are worse now than they were when they were first elected. The Tories blame those deficits on Labour policies, ignoring the fact that the recession which affected many countries was caused by the banks and the collapse started in the USA.


But Labour now it can be honest after the election is agreeing that they over spent and that the Conservative strategy is more or less correct. 

You seem to be a little isolated in your opinions here. Almost that you want to paint a bad picture to justify some inner need. As Mary says people have a choice and the democratic process gives them the chance to express their opinions. Despite not being a conservative or DC supporter I respect the democratic choice of the people. I voted Liberal for heaven's sake


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> In response to those comments re my saying that perhaps the vote should be taken away from many in UK:
> 
> They have just had five years of a government that is in the hands of big business and the well-to-do and takes away from those most in need with little or no thought because "They're all right Jack" but the electorate still votes them back in - that is masochism to the extreme. The Tories vowed to reduce the deficits, etc but they are worse now than they were when they were first elected. The Tories blame those deficits on Labour policies, ignoring the fact that the recession which affected many countries was caused by the banks and the collapse started in the USA.


Labour were still running a 3% deficit after something like 15 years of continuous growth. They should have been running a 3% surplus. If it wasn't for that 6% difference between where the deficit was and where it should have been, there would probably be no need for any austerity now.

The really stupid thing is that all Labour needed to do was admit that they ran the deficit too high, but at the time the Tories said they would match Labour's spending. So it was a mistake all round. And from there they could have moved on, but instead they tried to deny they made any mistakes at all, as if spending could always increase ad infinitum, and then blame the Tories for making the inevitable cuts as if they got some sadistic pleasure from it. Fortunately it seems the UK electorate doesn't fall for that [email protected] any more.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Wild celebrations here in Alcalá de los Gazules, _"la cuna de socialismo andaluz"_. The disastrous IU/PP pact we've suffered for the last four years is consigned to history. 

PSOE 10, PP 2, IU 1. Turnout 70%. I have a monstrous hangover.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Same in UK


But I'm not very interested in the UK


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> But I'm not very interested in the UK


That's because you are not drawing an OAP from UK


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Malaga was the only province we didn't 'win'. Estepona gave a decisive win to PP. The reasons are fairly obvious, as I see it, objectively, or as objective as I can be.

For a few years before the 2011 elections, PSOE was in control with a thoroughly corrupt Mayor who was denounced and arrested by one of his own Concejales. The former Mayor is now awaiting trial (since 2008!) along with 104 fellow imputados. His successor, the denouncer, became Mayor. He is a thoroughly decent, honest, lovely man whom I love to bits and respect but he lacks all the qualities needed to be a successful town leader - in fact you could say he has all the qualities which rule him out.
The PP won a decisive victory in 2011 and unless a miracle occurs will hold it for many years to come. The first thing they did was to smarten up the town: fountains were cleared of beer cans, dead leaves and other detritus, pavements mended, flowers and shrubs put everywhere, streets were made truly beautiful. I think it's fair to say that the town is one of the prettiest in Spain. All this cost very little but made people, residents and visitors, feel good about the town. Then the slogan 'Estepona esta mejor' which is indisputable was postered everywhere...PP propaganda from municipal coffers.
Then we got a new fairground, a new theatre and an orchidarium. Residents were given free entry to a series of concerts when the theatre opened, including two by Jose Merce.
The PP Mayor turned up everywhere....at all Community meetings, at every public event in every barrio. It has to be admitted that he exudes charm, affability and massive confidence - he is a wealthy notary, well-connected and Mr. Teflon as he lurks on the fringes of all national and local scandals - his office is currently under investigation by UPYCO - but nothing sticks to him personally. He publicly called the former Mayor and denouncer 'chivato' for said denuncia of the corrupt former PSOE Mayor.
But he got elected with increased majority against the trend elsewhere.
If he succeeds in getting Estepona a hospital he will be Mayor long after I'm dead.
The defeated PSOE candidate for Mayor has lost two elections and is a tainted brand....failure. He should fall on his sword, really, but he can't as the new PSOE Concejales lack experience and 'crowd appeal'.
I personally think we are ****ed. We really need to have a radical rethink, but I fear we won't. Like the Labour Left in the UK, they will opt for more of the same-old. Like the UK Left, they will listen to each other and not the people who alone can vote them back into power. They need to understand that to help the few who need help you have to win over those who are doing nicely thankyou.
But I fear that we will carry on as before. We ignore at our peril the 'feel good' factor, the aspirations of ordinary people as well as their fears. We forget that even when 34% have no work, 66% are employed. 
To help anyone you need power. Simple fact. Often ignored in the interests of some meaningless abstract ideology.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Wild celebrations here in Alcalá de los Gazules, _"la cuna de socialismo andaluz"_. The disastrous IU/PP pact we've suffered for the last four years is consigned to history.
> 
> PSOE 10, PP 2, IU 1. Turnout 70%. I have a monstrous hangover.


A victory for social democracy?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> PSOE taken a pounding?? Podemos WON one city in the whole of Spain...dream on. PP still took most of the vote overall, PSOE a good second.





mrypg9 said:


> Instead of blaming the electorate for using their vote in the 'wrong' way the losers should be asking the important questions'Why did my opponent win?' and 'Why did I lose?'
> I think I know why we lost here and we need a major rethink in approach and strategy.





mrypg9 said:


> Why not abolish voting altogether if the result doesn't please you
> 
> It's arrogant and a big mistake to think that people who don't agree with us are stupid.
> Incidentally I predict a PPwin in November. Narrow but a victory.





> Originally Posted by *mrypg9*
> _...Podemos came a poor third or fourth in most places. The bubble has burst.
> As forecast._


_

Your absolute refusal to give Podemos and their supported groups any recognition does not show you in a favourable light , imo. You seem to have become a victim of politi speak. True the results can be analysed in any number of ways, but the PP lost over 2.5 million votes, the PSOE over 800,000 votes and nearly 1.5million (or maybe more, the data is still difficult to find) voted for Podemos etc who weren't even on the map last elections or even last year.
You seem to think that people expected Podemos to "win" and that Podemos supporters should be disaapointed with the results but that is not the case.
Whether this will impinge on the general elections depends very much on how Podemos etc conduct themselves in the pacting process and their greeness as a party may show through there, but we will have to see and I for one look forward to seeing what happens
_


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> That's because you are not drawing an OAP from UK


The way things are going Baldi I'll be lucky to get any pension from anywhere!


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> That's because you are not drawing an OAP from UK


And apart from moving most peoples OAP into non UK taxable territory what have the tories done to upset you?  You always tell us how great your life is in Spain and how easy it is to live on a UK pension 

Back on topic it is interesting what a mixture of different political combinations there are across spain. It will be good to see what the various parties have learnt and whether they can adjust in the run up to the big one. 

I see that the PP seem to be very aggressive in parts saying 'well if that is what they want let's see them suffer'. The PSOE seem more sanguine.

Of course Podemos and friends have a lot of work to do to ensure they present a coherent and unified message nationally. 

I hope we get some quality debates on how the problems in Spain will be addressed - and that we get less of those shouting matches with 12 people talking all at once that the TV seem so keen on 

Well I'm off to talk to my lawyer in Seville about my tax future next year in Cadiz. I hope he has a crystal ball


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> PSOE taken a pounding?? Podemos WON one city in the whole of Spain...dream on. PP still took most of the vote overall, PSOE a good second.


Hi - Podemos will hold the balance of power in many more! In Cádiz province and city, I predict that the fiesta mood will become the new norm, LOL! Congratulations to Podemos, its young leaders and its equally young 'foot soldiers!' 

Here are the astonishing results from the most impoverished province in the whole of Spain :


TeÃ³fila pierde la mayorÃ*a absoluta y ve peligrar la AlcaldÃ*a

Saludos,
Sxx


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - Podemos will hold the balance of power in many more! In Cádiz province and city, I predict that the fiesta mood will become the new norm, LOL! Congratulations to Podemos, its young leaders and its equally young 'foot soldiers!'
> 
> Here are the astonishing results from the most impoverished province in the whole of Spain :
> 
> ...


Hi again - Apologies; I'd meant to add this 'El País' link ( in Spanish) for the Cádiz province results:-

Resultados Electorales en Cádiz: Elecciones Andaluzas 2015 en EL PAÍS

Saludos, GC.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

alborino said:


> Of course Podemos and friends have a lot of work to do to ensure they present a coherent and unified message nationally.


This is the problem now. I think Podemos let itself down by joining forces with other left wing parties to present the same candidates in Madrid and Barcelona. They've lost the common ground a bit, and are now becoming just another party of the left when they were once a party of change. Even though I'd be happy for those candidates to beat the PP, which they may still do, it's now less likely that right wing or centrist voters will vote for them. Also there will be a tendency for people to vote for the established parties in the national elections later this year, so I have a feeling this is as good as it gets for Podemos.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> _
> 
> Your absolute refusal to give Podemos and their supported groups any recognition does not show you in a favourable light , imo. You seem to have become a victim of politi speak. True the results can be analysed in any number of ways, but the PP lost over 2.5 million votes, the PSOE over 800,000 votes and nearly 1.5million (or maybe more, the data is still difficult to find) voted for Podemos etc who weren't even on the map last elections or even last year.
> You seem to think that people expected Podemos to "win" and that Podemos supporters should be disaapointed with the results but that is not the case.
> ...


Why should I give them any recognition? Podemos didn't win and politics is about gaining power to change things. Neither Podemos nor Cs will have that power. I will attack Podemos as much as PP as a) I don't give a toss as to whether I'm seen in a 'favourable' light because b) I promote the Party I believe is the best to help ordinary people . I could say that Podemos supporters are victims of politi speak, whatever that is. They like Cs are new kids on the block but when they get a sniff of the fringes of power - which is all they will get - they will find their hands are tied by the very real restrictions of actually being near to government and their naïve supporters will desert them for failing to deliver what they promise.

I also have little regard for a party which proclaims policies, campaigns on them in one election then changes for another. And it's not policies as much as principles. Podemos started as a party promising* radical *change. Then, much as Syriza, it found that such change was not possible. So now it's a social democratic party. 
Defeated Parties should LISTEN but never abandon fundamental principles. 
I see no reason to regard every Party I don't support as one that should be recognised only as regards their positives. Imo Podemos, Cs and PP have very few if any positives. My commitment since I grew up is to social democracy and always will be but unlike some Parties that commitment is fixed and final.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - I just read this article con the 'El País' website ( in English). If anyone might be astonished at the Spanish electorate's shift to the Left, the explanation could well be found right here...

Inequality between rich and poor has hit record highs, OECD warns | In English | EL PAÃ�S

Saludos, GC.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> This is the problem now. I think Podemos let itself down by joining forces with other left wing parties to present the same candidates in Madrid and Barcelona. They've lost the common ground a bit, and are now becoming just another party of the left when they were once a party of change. Even though I'd be happy for those candidates to beat the PP, which they may still do, it's now less likely that right wing or centrist voters will vote for them. Also there will be a tendency for people to vote for the established parties in the national elections later this year, so I have a feeling this is as good as it gets for Podemos.


I agree. I also agree with what you said about Labour in the last election. 
Like me, I think you are a realist. Politics has taken up most of my life, cost me money and probably years of my life through stress. I've seen too much simply by having lived long to get enthused about start-ups like Cs and Podemos. I think PP will win, narrowly , in November but unlike some I see winning as holding power, not the 'balance' which under the stresses of real everyday life tends to evaporate.

In spite of cultural differences, voters the world over vote, 90% of them, for what they see as being in their interests. They are small c conservative and the majority fear radical change. Young unemployed people who get a job have a stake in the status quo, whatever it is.

In spite of all the criticism levelled at the two 'casta' Parties, much of it true, voters tend to fall into two main groups: those who want a mild tinkering with the status quo and those who want the status quo ante.
I may not like that but I bury my more 'radical' soul and recognise it as being true and evidenced by history.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I just read this article con the 'El País' website ( in English). If anyone might be astonished at the Spanish electorate's shift to the Left, the explanation could well be found right here...
> 
> Inequality between rich and poor has hit record highs, OECD warns | In English | EL PAÃ�S
> 
> Saludos, GC.


And look at where the UK features in those tables.

And in the mid-sidelines:
MÁS INFORMACIÓN
IMF calls on Spain to raise VAT and lower corporate taxes

That's going close the inequality gap, NOT.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> A victory for social democracy?


Sorry, I don't understand what you're implying by that. Why wouldn't it be? :confused2:


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> In response to those comments re my saying that perhaps the vote should be taken away from many in UK:
> 
> They have just had five years of a government that is in the hands of big business and the well-to-do and takes away from those most in need with little or no thought because "They're all right Jack" but the electorate still votes them back in - that is masochism to the extreme. The Tories vowed to reduce the deficits, etc but they are worse now than they were when they were first elected. The Tories blame those deficits on Labour policies, ignoring the fact that the recession which affected many countries was caused by the banks and the collapse started in the USA.


As I said well before the UK election the majority of people in the UK are doing fine considering the financial climate and are not unhappy with the way things were run over the previous 5 years. 

(I also predicted the result and the fact that UKIP would get votes from traditional Labour supporters by the way - not bad for someone who isn't particularly interested in, nor understands politics).

Anyway - this thread is about Spain...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> This is the problem now. I think Podemos let itself down by joining forces with other left wing parties to present the same candidates in Madrid and Barcelona. They've lost the common ground a bit, and are now becoming just another party of the left when they were once a party of change. Even though I'd be happy for those candidates to beat the PP, which they may still do, it's now less likely that right wing or centrist voters will vote for them. Also there will be a tendency for people to vote for the established parties in the national elections later this year, so I have a feeling this is as good as it gets for Podemos.


Podemos said ages ago they weren't going to contest the municipal elections with their "brand", but instead they would support local groups like Ahora Madrid and Ada Colau's party in Barcelona. That gave the local groups more flexibility and I believe partly accounts for their success yesterday.

The behaviour of all parties, established and emergent, will be under scrutiny over the next few weeks during the formation of pacts which will needed in most ACs and many cities in order to govern. The situation in Andalucia, where no party will budge an inch, has not shown any of them in a good light. We are going to have to have another election because of their inability to compromise.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - I don't have a vote in Spanish elections, at any level, but would, normally, be a supporter of the major Party on the Left - In this case, PSOE. However, my Spanish friends in SW Andalucía no longer vote for that Party, because they've been sickened by allegations of corruption levelled against so many of its representatives, within the Junta de Andalucía and municipal administrations!

Spanish police to arrest 70 to 90 people in anti-corruption raids in Andalusia - Xinhua | English.news.cn

The feeling on the part of many younger voters, , particularly in Cádiz, is of deep betrayal - not least because several senior politicians are alleged to have pocketed funds earmarked to provide training courses for young people, whose plight in Cádiz province, in particular, is worsened by appalling levels of unemployment and the lack of funded educational opportunities! 

This disillusionment with politicians of both major political parties has led younger voters, in Cádiz, to support the new, smaller parties - their slates are clean and they are pledged to work for the benefit of those who, currently, have little hope and even less faith in the promises made, either by the PP or PSOE - too many 'Fat Cats' have been lining their own pockets at the expense of the people of this province! 

I mean no disrespect to other members, here, who've campaigned on behalf of PSOE. The reality is, however, that this Party still has a great deal more to do, if corruption is to be rooted out, completely, from within its ranks.

Regards,
GC.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - *I don't have a vote in Spanish elections*,
> Regards,
> GC.


Why not?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well despite the PP getting considerably more votes than anyone else here they lost their absolute majority going from 12 to 8 spots falling 3 short, PSOE took a hit going from 6 to 4.
C's and Ganemos took 3 and 2 respectively, Compromis got 2.

Not entirely certain what that means for the community, I imagine the incumbent will likely strike a deal and there will be another 4 years of his crap.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I agree. I also agree with what you said about Labour in the last election.
> Like me, I think you are a realist. Politics has taken up most of my life, cost me money and probably years of my life through stress. I've seen too much simply by having lived long to get enthused about start-ups like Cs and Podemos. I think PP will win, narrowly , in November but unlike some I see winning as holding power, not the 'balance' which under the stresses of real everyday life tends to evaporate.
> 
> In spite of cultural differences, voters the world over vote, 90% of them, for what they see as being in their interests. They are small c conservative and the majority fear radical change. Young unemployed people who get a job have a stake in the status quo, whatever it is.
> ...


I'd say that's true'ish of the UK (although there may be large changes there quite soon) but in Spain the constitutional problems run so deep that something more radical might be required. Not radical in terms of new political ideas, but radical in terms of the way the country is constitutionally organised. Right now Spain is covered in little councils sucking up money and with no accountability as to how it is spent. 

Last year I went to a wedding in Majadahonda which is a small satellite town to the north of Madrid. And the local councillors all turned up in chauffeur driven limos. This sort of thing happens everywhere in Spain: you win the local elections and you win the lottery. Neither of the main two parties have shown any inclination to change this, and it's why the smaller parties are growing popularity, regardless of what their policies are.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

more denuncias against PP

Denunciado por compra de votos el secretario general del PP de Fuerteventura


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'd say that's true'ish of the UK (although there may be large changes there quite soon) but in Spain the constitutional problems run so deep that something more radical might be required. Not radical in terms of new political ideas, but radical in terms of the way the country is constitutionally organised. Right now Spain is covered in little councils sucking up money and with no accountability as to how it is spent.
> 
> Last year I went to a wedding in Majadahonda which is a small satellite town to the north of Madrid. And the local councillors all turned up in chauffeur driven limos. This sort of thing happens everywhere in Spain: you win the local elections and you win the lottery. Neither of the main two parties have shown any inclination to change this, and it's why the smaller parties are growing popularity, regardless of what their policies are.


Spot on. Too many politicos from the main parties here regard their elected posts as a job rather than a civic duty, a way of building their careers and picking up life pensions. They don't feel any responsibility or accountability to the people who elected them. They have an over-inflated sense of entitlement.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Spot on. Too many politicos *from the main parties* here regard their elected posts as a job rather than a civic duty, a way of building their careers and picking up life pensions. They don't feel any responsibility or accountability to the people who elected them. They have an over-inflated sense of entitlement.


I'm sorry to say that I too picked up on that. I also have to say that the PP Concejales I've worked with have been good at the jobs they do, connect well with the public, have a social consciousness and most of them are well-off and not in it for the money.

But what evidence do we have that the Concejales from other Parties would behave differently if they had the opportunity? I think we should wait and see before conferring sainthood.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, I don't understand what you're implying by that. Why wouldn't it be? :confused2:


PSOE should have changed its name as well as its programme after the transition. It isn't a 'socialist' party. 
Leave that to IU.
It seems even Podemos is social democratic now.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I see an expat was elected in manilva for the IU. Don't know anything about him though.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> PSOE should have changed its name as well as its programme after the transition. It isn't a 'socialist' party.
> Leave that to IU.
> It seems even Podemos is social democratic now.


Well, words do change their meaning over time. Sometimes it's easier to adjust what a word means to you than try and get everyone to stick to the original meaning. PSOE members call themselves _socialistas_, IU members call themselves _izquierdistas_. They are all social-democratic, as is Podemos. None of them, AFAIK, are meeting in smoke-filled rooms plotting to overthrow the bourgeoisie and seize control of the means of production.

My town is known as the _cuna de socialismo andaluz_ because so many of the people involved in rebuilding the PSOE after Franco's death came from here. Our new mayor is the son of Luis Pizarro, who was vice-president of Andalucia. It's actually quite a conservative place (small c), with lots of small businesses, at least five religious brotherhoods and nearly a quarter of the population over 60. I'm told that PSOE literally bought their votes in the past, with jobs and handouts in exchange for their support. I sincerely hope that is a thing of the past; it's the biggest cause of complaint amongst their opponents.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm sorry to say that I too picked up on that. I also have to say that the PP Concejales I've worked with have been good at the jobs they do, connect well with the public, have a social consciousness and most of them are well-off and not in it for the money.
> 
> But what evidence do we have that the Concejales from other Parties would behave differently if they had the opportunity? I think we should wait and see before conferring sainthood.


Yes of course. Ada Colau is abolishing private cars for politicians in Barcelona - that's a good start.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, words do change their meaning over time. Sometimes it's easier to adjust what a word means to you than try and get everyone to stick to the original meaning. PSOE members call themselves _socialistas_, IU members call themselves _izquierdistas_. They are all social-democratic, as is Podemos. None of them, AFAIK, are meeting in smoke-filled rooms plotting to overthrow the bourgeoisie and seize control of the means of production.
> 
> My town is known as the _cuna de socialismo andaluz_ because so many of the people involved in rebuilding the PSOE after Franco's death came from here. Our new mayor is the son of Luis Pizarro, who was vice-president of Andalucia. It's actually quite a conservative place (small c), with lots of small businesses, at least five religious brotherhoods and nearly a quarter of the population over 60. I'm told that PSOE literally bought their votes in the past, with jobs and handouts in exchange for their support. I sincerely hope that is a thing of the past; it's the biggest cause of complaint amongst their opponents.



Interesting and yes, I hope so too. My fellow-militantes (another word I'm coming to terms with) are a decent bunch, I'm truly sorry for them, especially for our defeated Mayoral candidate, David Valadez, who has had* seventeen * denuncias against him from PP opponents, all archivados, who has been called chivato by the current Mayor for revealing and denouncing corruption within PSOE and who had to have an armed bodyguard because of threats against his life.

Just a thought....Podemos and to a lesser extent Cs made their way by denouncing 'la casta'......yet they are very readily, it seems, especially Podemos, willing to join la casta in coalitions. By doing so they will surely lose their famed 'purity'....plus any successes achieved by coalition will be taken over as their own by PSOE , if they have any sense.
Perhaps better to stay in opposition and support the major Party on a 'confidence and supply' basis?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes of course. Ada Colau is abolishing private cars for politicians in Barcelona - that's a good start.


Something PSOE politicians didn't have here when in power so not new.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> The PP won a decisive victory in 2011 and unless a miracle occurs will hold it for many years to come. The first thing they did was to smarten up the town: fountains were cleared of beer cans, dead leaves and other detritus, pavements mended, flowers and shrubs put everywhere, streets were made truly beautiful. I think it's fair to say that the town is one of the prettiest in Spain. All this cost very little but made people, residents and visitors, feel good about the town. Then the slogan 'Estepona esta mejor' which is indisputable was postered everywhere...PP propaganda from municipal coffers.
> Then we got a new fairground, a new theatre and an orchidarium. Residents were given free entry to a series of concerts when the theatre opened, including two by Jose Merce.


For the first time in my life I voted for a centre right party yesterday - yes I confess, I voted PP. I wouldn't vote that way if I were able to vote in the national elections, but in the last 4 years since they took control of our town the PP administration has done much more, in a very visible way, than the previous PSOE administrations (who were also dogged by scandal and responsible for the expensive fiasco that was our tranvia system - cost €41M and stopped running almost 3 years ago because of the massive and ever growing deficit in costs). At local level at least, no financial scandals have emerged about our PP administration. We've had a new Mercado Municipal which is really thriving in it's new location (and the old one plus an adjoining theatre is in the process of redevelopment into new facilities), they have got businesses signed up to take units on the Parque Tecnoalimentario which the previous administration built and then stood empty and unused for 3 years, have just signed up the Coviran supermarket chain to locate a new distribution centre here after the same chain lost patience with being messed around by the previous PSOE lot and went to Colmenar instead, done lots of regeneration and training work in my own area, really improved the use of online services from the Ayuntamiento, and reorganised the municipal bus services which are now much better.

They won the largest share of the vote yesterday but will have to form a pact with one or two of the minority parties to achieve an overall majority.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Sorry, I've just seen the final results for Vélez and the PP do have an absolute majority (only by 1 seat though). The PP won 3 more seats than last time and the PSOE lost 3 - so clearly I wasn't the only person who gave them credit for doing a better job.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> For the first time in my life I voted for a centre right party yesterday - yes I confess, I voted PP. I wouldn't vote that way if I were able to vote in the national elections, but in the last 4 years since they took control of our town the PP administration has done much more, in a very visible way, than the previous PSOE administrations (who were also dogged by scandal and responsible for the expensive fiasco that was our tranvia system - cost €41M and stopped running almost 3 years ago because of the massive and ever growing deficit in costs). At local level at least, no financial scandals have emerged about our PP administration. We've had a new Mercado Municipal which is really thriving in it's new location (and the old one plus an adjoining theatre is in the process of redevelopment into new facilities), they have got businesses signed up to take units on the Parque Tecnoalimentario which the previous administration built and then stood empty and unused for 3 years, have just signed up the Coviran supermarket chain to locate a new distribution centre here after the same chain lost patience with being messed around by the previous PSOE lot and went to Colmenar instead, done lots of regeneration and training work in my own area, really improved the use of online services from the Ayuntamiento, and reorganised the municipal bus services which are now much better.
> 
> They won the largest share of the vote yesterday but will have to form a pact with one or two of the minority parties to achieve an overall majority.


At least your Tranvía ran. The one in Jaén capital has never had a tram run on it - a PP white elephant. PSOE have now taken over, too early to know what will happen with the tranvía.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> At least your Tranvía ran.


Well, partly. The previous administration had the second phase of the tracks installed to take the tranvia to the north end of town (originally it stopped at the southern end) but the second bit never, ever got used.


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## toddamparo (May 17, 2015)

Hello everyone. As a newbie on the forum, I thought I would comment on the Spanish elections. I am NOT residing in Spain, and here in the US I am conservative right wing, so, that sort of defines my point of view. If you really wanted to peg me I would tell you that I am a big rush Limbaugh fan. So, that sort of sets my point of view for you. I'm not a political animal by nature, but what is always on my mind is what is going to grow the economy. What is going to create an atmosphere for business to invest, create jobs, create taxation revenue and everything else that comes with new business. My in laws in Valencia are quite left wing, both of them retired, both suffering the cutbacks in pensions. I don't get into many political conversations with them, but when I do, I try to make the point that government creates nothing. It's only business that will bring down unemployment. if I were an investor looking into investing in Spain, my question would be what is going to give me the ability to make a profit of it and drive new business. I don't know whether the PP or PSOE is more business-friendly, but I would imagine that pp tries to label itself as business-friendly.

One time when I was on a trip to Spain, I dropped in on a bar owner in moriara. He was English and had recently set up a small cyber cafe and bar catering to the English crowd. He told me all of the problems he had while trying to get set up as a business in Spain, all the paperwork, bureaucracy, red tape, difficulties in general. I would be interested to go back and see whether he is still in business.

So, that's my little bit of input. I love the forum and love all the open interchange that is occurring here. The political conversation can get quite heated I know, but I know there has to be a way out for the Spanish economy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> For the first time in my life I voted for a centre right party yesterday - yes I confess, I voted PP. I wouldn't vote that way if I were able to vote in the national elections, but in the last 4 years since they took control of our town the PP administration has done much more, in a very visible way, than the previous PSOE administrations (who were also dogged by scandal and responsible for the expensive fiasco that was our tranvia system - cost €41M and stopped running almost 3 years ago because of the massive and ever growing deficit in costs). At local level at least, no financial scandals have emerged about our PP administration. We've had a new Mercado Municipal which is really thriving in it's new location (and the old one plus an adjoining theatre is in the process of redevelopment into new facilities), they have got businesses signed up to take units on the Parque Tecnoalimentario which the previous administration built and then stood empty and unused for 3 years, have just signed up the Coviran supermarket chain to locate a new distribution centre here after the same chain lost patience with being messed around by the previous PSOE lot and went to Colmenar instead, done lots of regeneration and training work in my own area, really improved the use of online services from the Ayuntamiento, and reorganised the municipal bus services which are now much better.
> 
> They won the largest share of the vote yesterday but will have to form a pact with one or two of the minority parties to achieve an overall majority.


If you read one of my previous posts you'll see that I understand 100% why you voted PP. similar situation in Estepona.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> . The reality is, however, that this Party still has a great deal more to do, if corruption is to be rooted out, completely, from within its ranks.
> 
> Regards,
> GC.


Well....every would-be PSOE office -holder has to make a full declaration of all their assets annually, which declaration is available to the public. 
Susana Diaz has pledged to combat corruption when she is finally installed in government. As honesty is ultimately down to the individual, here's little more any Party leadership can do. Be realistic.
Yes, there have been cases, deplorable cases of corruption in Andalucia. But hold on.....none of the new Parties has had even a sniff of power as yet so little chance of getting their hands in the till although Podemos has had its mini-scandals.
It's easy to aspire to sainthood when you've not passed the test.
Hopefully the newcomers will pass with flying colours and clean hands.
We shall see.


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## toddamparo (May 17, 2015)

I'd be interested in having a conversation with someone in each of the small up-and-coming parties like podemos. I would ask them a couple key questions, what should be the role of government? And how should government pave the way to grow the Spanish economy.?

In Valencia, I know they recently inaugurated a new IKEA store, & a new Costco store. Apparently there were thousands of applicants for the 400 positions advertised. That tells me that at least there are some businesses that are willing to come in and invest in Spain. I wonder which of the parties had more influence on bringing in a large company like IKEA and Costco.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Well, partly. The previous administration had the second phase of the tracks installed to take the tranvia to the north end of town (originally it stopped at the southern end) but the second bit never, ever got used.


Didn't they flog/lease the trams to somewhere in Aussie but they have returned now ? or was that another white elephant somewhere else? :lol:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> For the first time in my life I voted for a centre right party yesterday - yes I confess, I voted PP. I wouldn't vote that way if I were able to vote in the national elections, but in the last 4 years since they took control of our town the PP administration has done much more, in a very visible way, than the previous PSOE administrations (who were also dogged by scandal and responsible for the expensive fiasco that was our tranvia system - cost €41M and stopped running almost 3 years ago because of the massive and ever growing deficit in costs). At local level at least, no financial scandals have emerged about our PP administration. We've had a new Mercado Municipal which is really thriving in it's new location (and the old one plus an adjoining theatre is in the process of redevelopment into new facilities), they have got businesses signed up to take units on the Parque Tecnoalimentario which the previous administration built and then stood empty and unused for 3 years, have just signed up the Coviran supermarket chain to locate a new distribution centre here after the same chain lost patience with being messed around by the previous PSOE lot and went to Colmenar instead, done lots of regeneration and training work in my own area, really improved the use of online services from the Ayuntamiento, and reorganised the municipal bus services which are now much better.
> 
> They won the largest share of the vote yesterday but will have to form a pact with one or two of the minority parties to achieve an overall majority.


I wonder where the money to do all that came from in an impoverished, crisis hit country.

We have a new waterworks station and a brand new Town Hall building all paid for by the Comunidad. Does the Comunidad have that money? It didn't the last time anybody looked, in fact there were several million euros of debt.

Sound familiar to anyone?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

toddamparo said:


> I'd be interested in having a conversation with someone in each of the small up-and-coming parties like podemos. I would ask them a couple key questions, what should be the role of government? And how should government pave the way to grow the Spanish economy.?
> 
> In Valencia, I know they recently inaugurated a new IKEA store, & a new Costco store. Apparently there were thousands of applicants for the 400 positions advertised. That tells me that at least there are some businesses that are willing to come in and invest in Spain. I wonder which of the parties had more influence on bringing in a large company like IKEA and Costco.


I would imagine that IKEA spoke to someone in Spain rather than the other way round


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder where the money to do all that came from in an impoverished, crisis hit country.
> 
> We have a new waterworks station and a brand new Town Hall building all paid for by the Comunidad. Does the Comunidad have that money? It didn't the last time anybody looked, in fact there were several million euros of debt.
> 
> Sound familiar to anyone?


All governments, national and local,borrow. Nothing wrong with that if the debt can be repaid from revenue over time at a reasonable interest rate.
Most debt of that kínd is repaid over years and years.
When Podemos etc.talk of using public money for Job creation they mean borrowing.
Classic Keynesianism.


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

I think I have to disagree that a new branch of IKEA is a sign of the Spanish economy being in recovery. The company has been quietly opening additional branches throughout the recession, Murcia and Zaragoza to name but two. Both of which always seem to be busy, particularly at meal times.
One thing we have noticed about IKEA in Spain is that it has a slightly different range of goods on sale to those elsewhere e.g. they continued to have availability of oak dining furniture for a longer period than in France/UK which meant we were able to get what we needed by driving down to Zaragoza and back the same day from France.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> Didn't they flog/lease the trams to somewhere in Aussie but they have returned now ? or was that another white elephant somewhere else? :lol:


They leased them to Sydney, but earlier this year (at dead of night, as reported in the local press, and without any public announcement) they were returned to the town over a year before the lease period expired - no information has been released as to why they came back early. I thought there might have been some last minute "rabbit out of the hat" announcement immediately before the election that they were to be brought back into service, but that didn't happen, so they are just sitting in the transport company depot. I used to like using the trams but the urbano buses are much better now since they were reorganised in March, so that aspect of it doesn't bother me, just the appalling waste of so much money.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder where the money to do all that came from in an impoverished, crisis hit country.
> 
> We have a new waterworks station and a brand new Town Hall building all paid for by the Comunidad. Does the Comunidad have that money? It didn't the last time anybody looked, in fact there were several million euros of debt.
> 
> Sound familiar to anyone?


When the PP took control here in May 2011, the total municipal debt (from the previous PSOE successive administrations) stood at €102M. They had reduced that to €90M by September 2012.

Vélez Málaga reduce la deuda municipal hasta los 90 millones de euros - La OpiniÃ³n de MÃ¡laga


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I looked for more recent figures but could only find this election propaganda which says the current debt is €94M and the Ayuntamiento is now paying its bills within 54 days.


El Gobierno del PP ha abonado más de 40 millones de euros a proveedores y ha reducido la deuda municipal en un 18,68%


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I looked for more recent figures but could only find this election propaganda which says the current debt is €94M and the Ayuntamiento is now paying its bills within 54 days.
> 
> 
> El Gobierno del PP ha abonado más de 40 millones de euros a proveedores y ha reducido la deuda municipal en un 18,68%


So when the PP came to office they were met by a debt of some 102m€, which is terrible. They reduced it to 90€ which is better, but still terrible. Then they improved some facilities in the town. On the other hand we all know that a great deal of things were cut (education, civil servants salaries, health to name only the more obvious), and the end result was to add 4m€ to the debt.

And that is considered handling the money well?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

The proposed IKEA in Alicante which in all fairness everyone wants is not happening at the moment due to planning permission problems.
Just another example of bureaucratic waste that makes life hard for even big business here.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> All governments, national and local,borrow. Nothing wrong with that if the debt can be repaid from revenue over time at a reasonable interest rate.
> Most debt of that kínd is repaid over years and years.
> When Podemos etc.talk of using public money for Job creation they mean borrowing.
> Classic Keynesianism.


Of course, and it's not being paid back, by any political party at any rate of interest, in any time frame that can be seriously considered to be reasonable


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> The proposed IKEA in Alicante which in all fairness everyone wants is not happening at the moment due to planning permission problems.
> Just another example of bureaucratic waste that makes life hard for even big business here.


The Malaga one took years to get up and running, doing well now I think. There should be a fast track for large businesses that will employ a lot of people.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Of course, and it's not being paid back, by any political party at any rate of interest, in any time frame that can be seriously considered to be reasonable




Spain to make another EU bank bailout payment - The Local

"Spain plans to pay back €2.5 billion ($2.8 billion) in bailout loans it received in 2012 from the European Union to bolster its ailing banks, the economy ministry said on Wednesday.

Spain has already reimbursed two tranches of the €41.4 billion in bailout funds it received for its banking sector, despite having a decade to do so.

Madrid made the first repayment of €1.3 billion in July 2014, followed by a second installation of €1.5 billion in March 2015."


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So when the PP came to office they were met by a debt of some 102m€, which is terrible. They reduced it to 90€ which is better, but still terrible. Then they improved some facilities in the town. On the other hand we all know that a great deal of things were cut (education, civil servants salaries, health to name only the more obvious), and the end result was to add 4m€ to the debt.
> 
> And that is considered handling the money well?


It is the Junta de Andalucia who is responsible for education and health, not the Ayuntamiento, and Central Government who cut civil servants' salaries.

As I said, I wouldn't vote PP if I could vote in the national elections - mainly because of the corruption (as I believe I said in my earlier posts nothing of that kind has emerged about the present PP local administration here, which is more than can be said of their PSOE predecessors), and the cuts to essential services. Our local services have held up very well, things like home help for the elderly, discounts to help people pay their IBI bills, street cleaning, we see more police patrolling on foot, the PP Councillors donate their two "extra" salary payments each year to the comedor social, etc.

I should perhaps mention that a young neighbour of ours who hadn't had a real job for years (he went to England to work in a factory but came back as he didn't like it there) came and knocked on our door, asked who we were voting for and implored us to vote PP as thanks to them (as he sees it) he now has a job, working for the municipal cleaning company, and not just a temporary one. I'd already decided to vote for them anyway - these were local elections so I voted for the Party I felt had done the best job locally.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Isobella said:


> The Malaga one took years to get up and running, doing well now I think. There should be a fast track for large businesses that will employ a lot of people.


I'm sure it will get there in the end but it is a mess of a situation that various groups have invented at the moment.
I guess they will have to grease all the palms first like they should of done to start with.

Once again the people of Alicante overwhelmingly voted in the PP with the mayor being widely regarded as corrupt and so much so the King cancelled visits when he was here because the mayor would be attending them too.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Madliz said:


> Spain to make another EU bank bailout payment - The Local
> 
> "Spain plans to pay back €2.5 billion ($2.8 billion) in bailout loans it received in 2012 from the European Union to bolster its ailing banks, the economy ministry said on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


Yes, after further investigation I have seen that some millions have been paid back of the thousands of millions that are owed. (Although I'm talking about town halls largely, not European debt or banks)
I do however, think it dangerous, very dangerous to pat people on the back for paying back a few million of a hugely damaging debt and approving superficial spending, whilst these same bodies are making again, hugely damaging cuts in other areas. AKA giving with one hand and taking with the other, pulling the wool over people's eyes and looking after number one.
The size of debts
La deuda de los ayuntamientos españoles sobre el mapa | AIS - Aplicaciones de Inteligencia Artificial

El Ayuntamiento de Madrid arrastra una deuda seis veces mayor que Barcelona - elEconomista.es
Los seis grandes ayuntamientos de España -aquellos cuya población supera el medio millón de habitantes- cerraron 2014 con una deuda pública conjunta de *9.616 *millones de euros, lo que significa que redujeron sus números rojos en 1.400 millones con respecto a lo que debían a finales de 2013. Ahora bien, la radiografía de la deuda municipal muestra enormes diferencias entre las grandes corporaciones.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It is the Junta de Andalucia who is responsible for education and health, not the Ayuntamiento, and Central Government who cut civil servants' salaries.
> .


That's true


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Of course, and it's not being paid back, by any political party at any rate of interest, in any time frame that can be seriously considered to be reasonable


Evidence for that??? There is no one time frame that can be 'seriously considered to be reasonable'.
Municipal and government debts are taken out to be repaid over many different periods of time, depending on from which revenue stream they are to be repaid.
Local authorities in the UK used to repay loans taken out to fund projects such as council house building over a period of sixty years. Remember that inflation decreases debt burden too.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, after further investigation I have seen that some millions have been paid back of the thousands of millions that are owed. (Although I'm talking about town halls largely, not European debt or banks)
> I do however, think it dangerous, very dangerous to pat people on the back for *paying back a few million of a hugely damaging debt and approving superficial spending,* whilst these same bodies are making again, hugely damaging cuts in other areas. AKA giving with one hand and taking with the other, pulling the wool over people's eyes and looking after number one.
> The size of debts
> La deuda de los ayuntamientos españoles sobre el mapa | AIS - Aplicaciones de Inteligencia Artificial
> ...


It was repaying debt and approving what you term 'superficial spending' that delivered Estepona Ayuntamiento into the hands of PP for four more years, with 17 out of 25 concejales. 
'Superficial spending' that will bring more tourists into the area, more profits for local businesses of all sizes, more revenue for the Ayto to hopefully spend on less superficial projects.
The CdS lives by tourism and tourists and locals alike enjoy seeing their town looking good with all these superficial working fountains, carefully tended flowers and shrubs everywhere, clean well-swept streets.
At the end of the day, the electorate decide what appeals to them, whether 'superficial' or profound.
I'm no fool and I have eyes with which I can see that yes, our town really is much better, as the PP slogan had it. Neither have there been savage cuts in essential services. Our local bus service has improved.
The undeniable fact is that the PP managed the town better than PSOE.
I am PSOE/Labour from loyalty but don't deny the obvious.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Remember that inflation decreases debt burden too.


As does refinancing to take advantage of lower interest rates and bond yields. A lot of that has gone on at all levels of Government in Spain in recent years.

It's a difficult balancing act, trying to reduce debt and interest payments whilst maintaining services and investing to try to stimulate the economy - whether nationally, regionally or locally.

I'm sure we'd all be very unhappy if our local Ayuntamientos virtually shut up shop and stopped emptying the bins and so on just so they could concentrate on paying down debt.


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## glamday0 (May 26, 2015)

Voters are not happy with what the current government has done over the past four years. There have been numerous protests against the Spanish government’s austerity measures.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> The proposed IKEA in Alicante which in all fairness everyone wants is not happening at the moment due to planning permission problems.
> Just another example of bureaucratic waste that makes life hard for even big business here.


It is not necessarily bureaucratic waste, it is more likely a case of looking for the right palm to grease.

It is rather like the corruption in the UK's NHS - Consultants who maintain an artificially high waiting list "I'm sorry Mrs Brown but there is a very long waiting list, but if would care to see me privately I can fit you in next week" and Mrs Brown would have her operation in the same facilities, using the same staff and equipment as she would have had on the NHS and the fact that Mrs Brown's private operation is tying up NHS resources, the NHS waiting list extends a little further.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I think you are right there, it's somewhat of a circus at the moment.

I have to take back my previous statement regarding the mayor. The new mayor has his own questions but he took over after the old one was forced to resign. Still the PP gained votes.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

glamday0;7253522[B said:


> _]Voters _[/B]are not happy with what the current government has done over the past four years. There have been numerous protests against the Spanish government’s austerity measures.


Some voters are happy, others aren't. The protestors were a minority.
The PP still got the largest vote share last week.
Don't expect a revolution any time soon.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

You can see how much more cheaply Spain can borrow now than it could 4 years ago:-


European Debt Crisis: Indicators, Analysis & Map - Bloomberg


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## toddamparo (May 17, 2015)

Isobella said:


> The Malaga one took years to get up and running, doing well now I think. There should be a fast track for large businesses that will employ a lot of people.


Exactly right! And exactly my point about the government's role in making things easy for business to come in. Which of the political parties is the most a tuned to that sort of approach? I wonder.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

toddamparo said:


> Exactly right! And exactly my point about the government's role in making things easy for business to come in. Which of the political parties is the most a tuned to that sort of approach? I wonder.


The most corrupt ones as they have a very personal motivation


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> You can see how much more cheaply Spain can borrow now than it could 4 years ago:-
> 
> 
> European Debt Crisis: Indicators, Analysis & Map - Bloomberg


All Eurozone countries have seen borrowing costs drop because the ECB began buying up bonds and quantative easing. Something that they said they would never do, in fact they scoffed at the USA and UK for doing it. Instead the ECB limped on causing more austerity.

Benefit of ECB’s Bond Buying: Fiscal Breathing Room - WSJ


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> All Eurozone countries have seen borrowing costs drop because the ECB began buying up bonds and quantative easing.


Greece hasn't!

The link doesn't work without a subscription, btw.

The ECB bond buying programme only started a couple of months ago and Spain's borrowing costs had already dropped substantially before that, as this graph shows:-

http://ycharts.com/indicators/spain_10_year_government_bond_yield


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting and yes, I hope so too. My fellow-militantes (another word I'm coming to terms with) are a decent bunch, I'm truly sorry for them, especially for our defeated Mayoral candidate, David Valadez, who has had* seventeen * denuncias against him from PP opponents, all archivados, who has been called chivato by the current Mayor for revealing and denouncing corruption within PSOE and who had to have an armed bodyguard because of threats against his life.
> 
> Just a thought....Podemos and to a lesser extent Cs made their way by denouncing 'la casta'......yet they are very readily, it seems, especially Podemos, willing to join la casta in coalitions. By doing so they will surely lose their famed 'purity'....plus any successes achieved by coalition will be taken over as their own by PSOE , if they have any sense.
> Perhaps better to stay in opposition and support the major Party on a 'confidence and supply' basis?


Hi - Yes, I'm now receiving messages from Cádiz friends who are incredibly unhappy at the possibility of a pact between PSOE and the Podemos - backed 'Cádiz Sisepuedes' party which has proved to be so popular in this city's election! 

As I've posted, already, it's the complete lack of trust in PSOE politicians which has led so many younger voters, within the city, to support the Podemos- backed alternative! Tough decisions will need to be made - and soon, if they wish to avoid a return to a PP - led city Government and Mayor ( but SW Andalucía does not, usually, function with any sense of urgency...)!

Saludos, Sxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - Yes, I'm now receiving messages from Cádiz friends who are incredibly unhappy at the possibility of a pact between PSOE and the Podemos - backed 'Cádiz Sisepuedes' party which has proved to be so popular in this city's election!
> 
> As I've posted, already, it's the complete lack of trust in PSOE politicians which has led so many younger voters, within the city, to support the Podemos- backed alternative! Tough decisions will need to be made - and soon, if they wish to avoid a return to a PP - led city Government and Mayor ( but SW Andalucía does not, usually, function with any sense of urgency...)!
> 
> Saludos, Sxx


I think you are ascribing to Podemos capabilities it has yet to evidence.
Cadiz is the stamping ground of socialist revolutionary Teresa Rodriguez, short-term member of the European Parliament and now leader of an opposition group on the JdA.

Wait six months at least and see whether they produce results as well as rhetoric. Podemos might be better at opposition than government, rather like Syriza in Greece.
If promises are not fulfilled, disillusionment will soon creep in.
And that is dangerous.

But as neither you, your friends and certainly not I can speak for the whole of Cadiz, we can but wait and see.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

toddamparo said:


> . Which of the political parties is the most a tuned to that sort of approach? I wonder.


Well you could be cynical and say the Left 'alternative' ones, those who want to spend public money which isn't there, are good for one term of office.
If they are elected, voters soon realise that they have no understanding of how to run a country fairly and efficiently, reject them for once and for all and soon elect more moderate left-centre ones who realise that revenue ultimately comes from taxing productive business.

Ask any Pole, Czech, Hungarian , Russian who has lived under socialism what they think of it...Experience is the best inoculation.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you are ascribing to Podemos capabilities it has yet to evidence.


Mary let's be honest if you are longterm unemployed you can back the tried and proven - and remain unemployed or you can give the new guys a chance. What have you got to lose?

You talk although PSOE are highly experienced winners that the people should trust. 

The result the PSOE have just had was exactly as predicted after the Andaluz elections (a prediction you strongly denied then). 

PSOE made no progress against the PP then and when in opposition against a non too clever ruling party you should expect to. The writing was on the wall even without the new boys on the block taking a slice of the cake. It was simple arithmetic.

Come the big one only the most brain washed PSOE supporter would hope for anything other than survival. And if PSOE manage that they will have to rebuild and that will take at least 5 years.

The spanish are not a people who push for change easily. But if you kick them hard enough even they will turn on you in the end.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The AHI Nationalists got in here. Agrupacion Hierro Independente. Last time the PSOE and the PP formed an alliance to oust them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> Mary let's be honest if you are longterm unemployed you can back the tried and proven - and remain unemployed or you can give the new guys a chance. What have you got to lose?
> 
> You talk although PSOE are highly experienced winners that the people should trust.
> 
> ...



Let's get real. the reviled 'casta' took over 50% of the vote on Sunday. PP had the largest share. Podemos got 12%, Cs 6%. The highlighted paragraph is very wishful thinking.
Some 'triumph'. The economy is picking up. PP will gain voters it lost, ditto PSOE. 
As for my prediction re Andalusia, I said PSO would win which it did. If the blocking Parties want to go to the wall and bring about new elections they will be sorry. PSOE will now control every province bar Malaga. 
Only the most brainwashed supporter of a Party which has yet to prove itself and which has sole control of not one town or city or province could truly pin their hopes on a group of inexperienced people who have already been obliged to jettison the policies they adopted just over a year ago for a set that is much less radical and whose supporters, who expect great things from them, albeit vague and undefined ones, will be sorely disillusioned when it all disappears in a cloud of pink smoke.
As it will.

And yes, PSOE are highly experienced winners whom people trusted sufficiently to re-elect them several times, remember?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Incidentally, what really stunned me about the elections was that in our town neither the PSOE, IU nor Podemos candidates had a clue as to how they would pay for the goodies they promised. 
I spent a lot of time talking to representatives of PP, IU and Podemos on Sunday and if I hadn't been parti pris I would have voted like Lynn as at least the PP people had an economic plan. The Podemos guys were lovely people but like student union politicians. When pressed as to how they would create employment and rehome the homeless answers were their none. And these were candidates....
Our team had a plan but it was so vague and dependent on the JdA, diputacion, even the EU.
In contrast, the PP guy explained convincingly that they had refinanced some loans at a lower interest rate, extended the repayment term of others and would take advantage of low interest rates for new infrastructure projects as well as make use of increased revenues from local businesses and other local sources which, he claimed, were doing well as the new, improved town was attracting more tourists, both daytrippers as well as those holidaying in the town. He said that restaurants, shops and bars were taking on more staff to cope with expected increased demand. I think all that is true.
PP seem to understand management, something that the other Parties, including PSOE, sad to say, have yet to learn, especially the newcomers.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, what really stunned me about the elections was that in our town neither the PSOE, IU nor Podemos candidates had a clue as to how they would pay for the goodies they promised.
> I spent a lot of time talking to representatives of PP, IU and Podemos on Sunday and if I hadn't been parti pris I would have voted like Lynn as at least the PP people had an economic plan. The Podemos guys were lovely people but like student union politicians. When pressed as to how they would create employment and rehome the homeless answers were their none. And these were candidates....
> Our team had a plan but it was so vague and dependent on the JdA, diputacion, even the EU.
> In contrast, the PP guy explained convincingly that they had refinanced some loans at a lower interest rate, extended the repayment term of others and would take advantage of low interest rates for new infrastructure projects as well as make use of increased revenues from local businesses and other local sources which, he claimed, were doing well as the new, improved town was attracting more tourists, both daytrippers as well as those holidaying in the town. He said that restaurants, shops and bars were taking on more staff to cope with expected increased demand. I think all that is true.
> PP seem to understand management, something that the other Parties, including PSOE, sad to say, have yet to learn, especially the newcomers.


ok so you now agree that PSOE are a disaster. You've seen it with your own eyes.

As for your observation that Podemos are nice people but need time to learn this has to be considered in terms of the alternative. A PSOE that has proved it cannot learn and only knows how to repeat the mistakes of the past. As you rightly say "something that the other Parties, including PSOE, sad to say, have yet to learn". 

Podemos have had a year, PSOE have had how many years? Why have they no clue following 4 years since they last demonstrated an incredible incompetence?

I think you assessment of PP is fair to some degree. And on that basis incredibly the PP have a good chance of being the biggest party in the big one with Podemos being second. Hopefully a minority PP government will be watched like a hawk. And at the end of the decade a new form of politics will exist in Spain and the old guard will have to change or die.

Podemos and friends were spawned by the failure of the PP, PSOE to react to the changes within the EU and globally. But for sure without the new guys there wouldn't be light at the end of the tunnel so I guess in someways the abject failure of PSOE and the greed of PP may in the long term offer a small crumb of benefit


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

I think the popularity that Podemos is experiencing has been a wake up call to the complacency of the main parties.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> ok so you now agree that PSOE are a disaster. You've seen it with your own eyes.
> 
> As for your observation that Podemos are nice people but need time to learn this has to be considered in terms of the alternative. A PSOE that has proved it cannot learn and only knows how to repeat the mistakes of the past. As you rightly say "something that the other Parties, including PSOE, sad to say, have yet to learn".
> 
> ...


No, I didn't say 'PSOE are a disaster'. I said they had n coherent financial plan for sensible governance of our town. Neither did Podemos.
You keep parroting that PSOE 'failed'....controlling every province in Andalucia apart from one is a failure some would enjoy, especially Podemos. Yet you persist in calling that result and the participation in 50% plus share of the vote as abject failure.
Fact: Podemos ' bandwagon is slowing. A year ago they peaked at 23%. Now achieving 12%. Very unlikely they will regain that momentum, certainly not to be the second Party in November. The most they can hope for is to prop up PSOE government which surely they would not wish to do, being 'pure'.
All of your forecasts are based on wishful thinking, not evidence. Whatever their faults, the two main Parties have a solid base of supporters and finances. Podemos does not. Its main supporters are, understandably, the young, the previously unaffiliated. A fickle base to rely on as we have already seen. 
I shall be interested to see what happens if the Podemos/IU hybrid gets power in Cadiz. It seems a large part of their employment plan is to attract large industries like Airbus. We shall see. But I can understand the reluctance of large companies to do business in a city ruled by socialist revolutionaries. Like Greece, you are more likely to see capital flight than capital investment. Unfair but real life.

To sum up...you are putting a lot of faith and trust in an inexperienced group who have yet to manage a single pueblo, who have as yet had few scandals because they haven't had their hands anywhere near power to be able to abuse it and who can sniff at power only by propping up the casta they despise. They can't even fight under one brand name. Schism is inevitable.

I think that you like tens of thousands of others will be sorely disillusioned and that doesn't make me happy in the slightest. You may view your disillusionment with detachment. The younger, less worldly-wise will not.
Out of disillusion creeps fascism and other far right ideologies. One replaces the other. 
See France.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

We'll have to agree to disagree Mary but my predictions from the Andaluz result have all come true.

IMHO the difference is you need to defend/support PSOE and that limits you're ability to address the problems of the people. You even see people like me as fanatical Podemos supporters as doing so aids your argument. The fact I am not doesn't seem to concern you - why let fact get in the way of fanaticism. 

The truth is that my natural politics is based on practicalities and is someway to the right of Podemos. But being non politically aligned I can look at problems and not be limited in the selection of solutions. Sadly PSOE can only keep bashing the people's heads against a brick wall. 

Unless you are willing to listen as well as preach the debate is meaningless. Simple preaching that Podemos have a lot to learn is obvious. But it doesn't justify voting for those who have learnt to fail - no matter how many times you repeat it


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Is there a list of how many municipalities each party won (either with a majority or a plurality)? The news websites only seem to write about madrid and barcelona, or the overall percentages. 

Or, if that doesn't exist, how many municipalities were won by parties other than psoe and pp? I have no clue what the number is.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

skip o said:


> Is there a list of how many municipalities each party won (either with a majority or a plurality)? The news websites only seem to write about madrid and barcelona, or the overall percentages.
> 
> Or, if that doesn't exist, how many municipalities were won by parties other than psoe and pp? I have no clue what the number is.


The complete picture is given here.

Elecciones autonómicas 2015 | EL PAÍS


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree Mary but my predictions from the Andaluz result have all come true.
> 
> IMHO the difference is you need to defend/support PSOE and that limits you're ability to address the problems of the people. You even see people like me as fanatical Podemos supporters as doing so aids your argument. The fact I am not doesn't seem to concern you - why let fact get in the way of fanaticism.
> 
> ...


Listen to what? To you telling me that a Party that got 12% of the vote is going to win November's elections? PSOE 'bashes people's heads against a brick wall'...what on earth does that mean? Is that a reasoned argument?

Albo, if anyone is preaching' I'm afraid it's you. And what do you mean by saying that 'defending PSOE 'limits my ability to address the problems of the people'? 
I've been 'addressing the problems of the people' - polit-speak, that - longer than many have had hot dinners, addressing and resolving them too.Don't you think that's presumptuous and rather personal, incidentally?
I have never used the word 'fanatic' to describe you. But I do find it odd that you can't understand that a Party that goes from 23% in the polls to 12% of vote gained in under a year is on a downward trend.
I have given reasons for my criticisms of Podemos. I have yet to see anyone talk about their policies but I see plenty of faith in a group that are untried and have done nothing to justify it.
I repeat my prediction for November: PP win, PSOE close second. Podemos third with a smaller share of the vote than the 12% gained last Sunday.

And the fact I defend PSOE is simple. I'm a paid-up member. And paid-up members usually support and defend their Parties.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Returning to that rather grandiose phrase 'addressing the problems of the people', why should we assume that any one Party has a monopoly on doing that?
Doesn't PSOE think it can 'address the problems etc. etc.? And Cs? And even PP? Not all PP voters and supporters are greedy and corrupt, grinding the faces of the poor in the dust, although that's the impression you could get from reading some posts.
It's especially strange to think that a Party which to date has no power to do anything to address anyone's problems should be the only one capable of doing that.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Returning to that rather grandiose phrase 'addressing the problems of the people', why should we assume that any one Party has a monopoly on doing that?
> Doesn't PSOE think it can 'address the problems etc. etc.? And Cs? And even PP? Not all PP voters and supporters are greedy and corrupt, grinding the faces of the poor in the dust, although that's the impression you could get from reading some posts.
> It's especially strange to think that a Party which to date has no power to do anything to address anyone's problems should be the only one capable of doing that.


Mary once again you fail to see anyone's view except your own. But if the only form of debate you understand is to attack the opposition then two can play that game:

Here is what PSOE have achieved in 8 years:

2007 - Votes 7760865 - 35.31%
2011 - Votes 6276087 - 27.79%
2015 - Votes 5603823 - 25.02%

And it left a vacuum which made easy the formation of competition on the left.

A proud record. Podemos may not be the answer to all of Spain's woes but the fact it exists makes the possibility of change much greater. And unless you think 25% unemployment is an enormous success then you'll agree change is needed.

Enjoy


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There's an article in El País about Kichi, the Podemos leader in Cádiz who hopes to become the next mayor. It's not too diffiicult to see why he has so much support.

“Primero, el hambre”


Google-translated extract:
_In a city with a 42% unemployment, which rises to 72% among young people, unemployment is their priority. To deal with this situation, [the party] covers a group of engineers, economists, architects and university professors who have developed a comprehensive re-industrialization plan based on the revival of 'locomotives industries', such as Airbus, Dragados and Navantia, linked to the economic "cord" that surrounds the capital and home to 800,000 people. The other axes are fishing and auxiliary industries (preparation of derivatives and fish farms), tourism ... and entrepreneurs, which proposes to create a "nursery" which supports any initiative "until the end".

Kichi has campaigned more walk in Cadiz in rallies. Neighbors invite him to their House when he stroll through the city and then returned to set other priorities: the infravivienda and the lack of housing solutions. According to human rights, 400 families living in apartments without the minimum conditions of safety and hygiene, 121 people lack ceiling, there are 3,984 housing unsettled claims and empty 6,866. José María González believes that the problem could be arranged with less than 1% of the municipal budget and this money would be easy to raise with the saving that will mean the end of the grant of municipal services next year_


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> Mary once again you fail to see anyone's view except your own. But if the only form of debate you understand is to attack the opposition then two can play that game:
> 
> Here is what PSOE have achieved in 8 years:
> 
> ...


Yes, PSOE has lost votes...just like Podemos and PP - but they are still running towns, provinces and regions. It's winning power that matters, because without that nothing can be done about 'addressing the problems of the people'.
You talk about the 'possibility of change' as if the word 'change' alone had the power to create jobs, stop evictions, increase low wage levels.
This is the reality of what Podemos has actually managed to bring about:
1) after spending much of its existence banging on about this magic 'change' without specifying what it consists of and blaming 'la casta' for every evil under the sun it is now deciding whether to put administrations headed by one or other Party of that casta in power.
2) If it betrays its rhetoric and does so it will lose face and gain no power to influence policy since there will always be a majority of other Parties in the administration against any far-left proposals it puts forward.
3) As a result of this they will, inevitably, settle down to be an ineffectual opposition rump in the old system they have so bitterly criticised.
4) If however they remain true to principle and polemic they will refrain from the horse-trading that is an inevitable part of the Spanish electoral system and become totally impotent.
5) Whether they adopt 3) or 4) their inability to influence real world politics will disillusion many voters attracted by their rhetoric of 'change'.

Now, that is a reasonably accurate picture of the world as it is after Sunday.

Producing figures showing the declining vote share of PSOE, something common to all Parties that contested the elections and may be down to low turnout, adds zilch to the situation as it is.
Incidentally, the blame for 25% unemployment cannot in reality be laid at PSOE's door. Even in the boom years, unemployment ran at 8 -10%. It's structural and can't easily be remedied. The global financial crisis contributed too but the slump in construction can be linked in large part to the Aznar PP Government's decision to deregulate land restrictions, paving -literally - the way for the massive construction boom and bust that rapidly caused the jobless figures to shoot up.

I'll attack any Party, including my own, when imo criticism is due. I have already done so regarding lack of budgetary nous in my own area, something which appalled me.
But I try to restrict my criticisms to policy not personal comments and most importantly try to argue from fact and reality, not with vague words like 'hope' and 'change' as they can mean whatever the person using them wishes.

What we should all be considering as it's much more important is why so many people gave PP the largest national share of the vote on Sunday. That's the big question, not the progress or non-progress of a minor party of opposition.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Add to the above the question as to why Podemos felt the need to hide itself within groupings not bearing its name.
Groups containing diverse factions, many of an extreme ideological bent, rarely stay united long.

Podemos Andalucia is largely a vehicle for Izquierda Unida, a revolutionary socialist Party that gained little support at the polls under its own brand. Its philosophical stance is out of step with the newly adopted more social democratic stance of mainstream Podemos.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> There's an article in El País about Kichi, the Podemos leader in Cádiz who hopes to become the next mayor. It's not too diffiicult to see why he has so much support.
> 
> “Primero, el hambre”
> 
> ...


Yes, I saw that. 
Let's hope Airbus, Dragados and other industries relocate or open plants because a group of academics think they should. I'm sure they will be attracted by an administration headed by a group of revolutionaries. What incentives will they be able to offer, I wonder...
I read that the expropriation of empty bank properties has been ruled illegal on appeal. What plans are there to provide much-needed affordable housing, I wonder.
I'd be interested to see in more precise detail how money will be found to finance all the obviously needed reforms.
As for the campaigning style...isn't that what all those aspiring to office do? Our PP Alcalde did that, not just during the campaign either, he appeared everywhere and anywhere at every single event in town in the past four years of holding office and got re-elected with a greater share of the vote.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Whilst fiddling about with the pool, I was thinking. I'm not sure that attracting big global companies like Airbus is a good thing. Setting up or relocating is a lengthy and expensive process and companies will obviously do so only if it's in their interest. That usually means generous tax breaks and expectations of reduced overheads and low wages. Such companies rarely have 'green' credentials and can actually put more strain on existing infrastructure.
I know nothing about Cadiz, its budget, its existing industries and the state they're in but I'm a proponent of small-scale worker share-holder or co-operative enterprises building on local needs and skills sets. Just wandering round our local poligono and there is a plethora of small, even tiny little businesses offering all kinds of niche and extremely useful services. These businesses won't make megabucks but they provide useful services and offer a skilled service or product, often highly specialised. Many of them 'feed' off each other, supplying parts and small services.
Local authorities could find out what gaps there are and fund start-ups, initially perhaps on a part-share basis. Another possible way forward is to consult with existing PYMEs to see how they could be helped to expand.
Maybe this has been thought of already, it's not new. 
When thinking of big companies relocating the sad tale of the large new Peugeot plant in Slovakia springs to mind....operating for a few years then off to somewhere cheaper in the EU.
Another thing that Aytos could do is expand opportunities for internships and apprenticeships. The quickest route out of unemployment is skills education. Again, this may be planned.
But the most important thing is to create a business-friendly environment which means no scary talk of socialism, Brecht and so on.
As for providing new housing....that obviously depends on available funding but housing co-operatives, self-builds and offers-you-can't-refuse to owners of empty residential dwellings should be on the table for discussion. I don't know what powers Aytos have to issue CPOs but if they have them they should use them in appropriate situations. My UK LA issued CPOs on derelict buildings, refurbished and sold them converted into flats at affordable prices.


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Mrypg, have you ever seen any analysis of the economic benefits of not having a siesta? Or having businesses open for longer hours and more days? I'm curious. Even the tourist heart of Barcelona is dead on Sundays because little is open so many tourists sit around their hotels and do nothing. As a local, I find many business don't post their set hours because they don't have any, or they are closed when they are supposed to be open, or they take a siesta at random times, etc. I have been very surprised how hard it can be to spend money here. I order many things from amazon.co.uk because even amazon.es stinks. 

I will admit that the US is overly obsessed with capitalism, but in my US hometown (population 140,000) I can buy 10 different kinds of orange juice from 5 different places at 3am, every day of the week. The unemployment rate is 2.8 percent there.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Producing figures showing the declining vote share of PSOE, *something common to all Parties that contested the elections*


Mary that is mathematically impossible!!! 



mrypg9 said:


> Whilst fiddling about with the pool, I was thinking. I'm not sure that attracting big global companies like Airbus is a good thing. Setting up or relocating is a lengthy and expensive process and companies will obviously do so only if it's in their interest. That usually means generous tax breaks and expectations of reduced overheads and low wages. Such companies rarely have 'green' credentials and can actually put more strain on existing infrastructure.


Those 58000 airbus employees and the other local businesses they support might not be with you on that one. Or closer to home the Spanish workers employed by Volkswagen in Catalunya for that matter. Yes it is the governments responsibility to safeguard the environment (in the grand sense) and negotiate a good deal for all. But you'd have to create a vast number of small businesses to compete with these company's job creation skills.



mrypg9 said:


> You talk about the 'possibility of change' as if the word 'change' alone had the power to create jobs, stop evictions, increase low wage levels.


So presumably PSOE are promoting more of the same? Is that a formula for success I wonder  

I'll give you that you put up a fight Mary. Enjoy


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