# Gibraltar - latest from BBC!



## GUAPACHICA

BBC News - Gibraltar row: Cameron asks EU to monitor border checks

Hi - just read this on the BBC News website…

Saludos,
GC


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## 90199

I found this, Catalan Nationalists back Gibraltar

Catalan nationalists back Gibraltar against Spain - The Local

Not quite a united front is the Cortina de Humo


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## tarot650

Frontier Queue Live - Gibraltar


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## Pesky Wesky

And here's the latest take on it from El País in English
Interior minister:


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## thrax

I've been to Gibraltar, many years ago when I was 14. I went to the top of the pointy bit where an ape very nearly pushed me off. I don't have any plans to return. It is very unsafe.


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## jojo

http://frontierqueue.gi/frontiercamera.aspx I enjoy watching this web cam of the border - as I've previously said, this isnt a car park, its the queue for the border crossing and I have to say, it doesnt look any worse or better than when I last went to Gib three years ago

Jo xxx


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## crookesey

If it comes down to a claim for sovereignty Spain don't stand a chance if it goes to a vote from Gibraltarians, the same applies to the Argentinians in respect of the Falklands. Did the Guanches die out or were they bred out in respect of the original inhabitants of The Canary Islands?

This is a prime example of Jim Hacker's 'British Sausage', nothing will come of it but it appeals to the Spanish population during the recession.


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## Aron

jojo said:


> http://frontierqueue.gi/frontiercamera.aspx I enjoy watching this web cam of the border - as I've previously said, this isnt a car park, its the queue for the border crossing and I have to say, it doesnt look any worse or better than when I last went to Gib three years ago
> 
> Jo xxx


And it's no different to Andorra some days, and nobody mentions that.


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## Navas

thrax said:


> I've been to Gibraltar, many years ago when I was 14. I went to the top of the pointy bit where an ape very nearly pushed me off. I don't have any plans to return. It is very unsafe.


Got to agree with you thrax. Even getting to the top of the pointy bit is dangerous - had to close my eyes in that cable car. And all that effort for what? A sachet of Nescafé and a cup of hot water! 
Oh, and a nice view.


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## jojo

What hypocrisy! With Gibraltar besieged, ROBERT HARDMAN visits Spain's own Rock - the colonial outpost in Africa that, with ocean-going double standards, they refuse to surrender | Mail Online

.... and here is "The Mails" slant on it all!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> What hypocrisy! With Gibraltar besieged, ROBERT HARDMAN visits Spain's own Rock - the colonial outpost in Africa that, with ocean-going double standards, they refuse to surrender | Mail Online
> 
> .... and here is "The Mails" slant on it all!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx





> In recent days, though, Madrid has ordered its commissars on the Gibraltar border to make life as miserable as possible for that pesky rock, with its full employment, its fish and chips, its low taxes, its photos of the Queen and its squeaky-clean little government.


The Madrileños don't like Peskies!!:rofl:


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## Justina

As with the Malvinas , Cristina wants a slice of the possible pie and there is a pie to be had with Gibraltar. Supposedly, the Rajoy government wants that at least the servers are Spanish. Somebody, correct me if I am wrong but the Brits in Gibraltar pay litle income tax. Is it not a tax free haven, for some?
I did go one Sunday and was it boring. So many shops closed down, lack of business, I suppose. But M&S and Evans for the outsize lady seem to be holding their repective heads high.


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## mrypg9

Justina said:


> As with the Malvinas , Cristina wants a slice of the possible pie and there is a pie to be had with Gibraltar. Supposedly, the Rajoy government wants that at least the servers are Spanish. Somebody, correct me if I am wrong but the Brits in Gibraltar pay litle income tax. Is it not a tax free haven, for some?
> I did go one Sunday and was it boring. So many shops closed down, lack of business, I suppose. But M&S and Evans for the outsize lady seem to be holding their repective heads high.


I dislike Gibraltar intensely. Great Yarmouth on heat. It's amazing how crossing a few feet of tarmac can transform an ambience.
The fact that Gibraltar has some rather peculiar tax arrangements affects the Spanish Government only insofar as there are people avoiding Spanish tax by claiming residence in Gib whilst living in Spain. Picardo has agreed this is wrong and has pledged to work with the Spanish Government to end this.

I think the real importance of Gibraltar's tax arrangements are that the chief beneficiaries are the gaming industries and the financial sector. You'd think the UK Government would be uneasy with the fact that UK investors pour £billions into Gibraltar-based funds to avoid UK tax buit seemingly not. Yet we pay full UK tax on our comparatively puny investments in British banks in Gib.

My general view is that if the Gibraltarians , like the Falkland Islanders, wish to remain British, so be it. But when the UK Government enshrines this self-determination into an inviolable principle we can ask if the citizens of Hong Kong were consulted before being handed to China.

Tbh, this is one of the few things I'm not really that bothered about. I offered Gibraltar to my friend Juan in return for the loan of his trailer to remove our garden rubbish but he said No thanks.

Does anyone know if there is anywhere within reasonable travelling distance of, say, Marbella, where one can buy frozen Quorn? If so, I need never visit Gibraltar again...:madgrin:


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## crookesey

Lidl sells frozen Quorn in it's UK stores, plenty of those on the Spanish mainland, worth a try.

Gibraltar was all about spies and smugglers in the books that I read as a kid, where would all the cloak and dagger activities go on if it wasn't for Gibraltar?


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## 90199

My father was on the rock for 3 years in WW2, Spanish saboteurs set off explosives, but father was a tough nut, he was thrown across the cave but landed uninjured. He had to leave Gibralter something to do with de mining beaches in Normandy, he survived that also.


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## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Lidl sells frozen Quorn in it's UK stores, plenty of those on the Spanish mainland, worth a try.
> 
> Gibraltar was all about spies and smugglers in the books that I read as a kid, where would all the cloak and dagger activities go on if it wasn't for Gibraltar?


Thanks for thát, I'll investigate Lidl in Estepona. Aldi and Lidl have interesting vfm wines from smaller Spanish producers toó.


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## Aron

mrypg9 said:


> I dislike Gibraltar intensely. Great Yarmouth on heat. It's amazing how crossing a few feet of tarmac can transform an ambience.
> The fact that Gibraltar has some rather peculiar tax arrangements affects the Spanish Government only insofar as there are people avoiding Spanish tax by claiming residence in Gib whilst living in Spain. Picardo has agreed this is wrong and has pledged to work with the Spanish Government to end this.
> 
> I think the real importance of Gibraltar's tax arrangements are that the chief beneficiaries are the gaming industries and the financial sector. You'd think the UK Government would be uneasy with the fact that UK investors pour £billions into Gibraltar-based funds to avoid UK tax buit seemingly not. Yet we pay full UK tax on our comparatively puny investments in British banks in Gib.
> 
> My general view is that if the Gibraltarians , like the Falkland Islanders, wish to remain British, so be it. But when the UK Government enshrines this self-determination into an inviolable principle we can ask if the citizens of Hong Kong were consulted before being handed to China.
> 
> Tbh, this is one of the few things I'm not really that bothered about. I offered Gibraltar to my friend Juan in return for the loan of his trailer to remove our garden rubbish but he said No thanks.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is anywhere within reasonable travelling distance of, say, Marbella, where one can buy frozen Quorn? If so, I need never visit Gibraltar again...:madgrin:


No, but next time I visit the area, I'll bring you some Quorn down. I think the local English shop where I live sell it. I have family in Nueva de Andalucia and Estepona. I live about 1 hour and 30 minutes from you


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## mrypg9

Aron said:


> No, but next time I visit the area, I'll bring you some Quorn down. I think the local English shop where I live sell it. I have family in Nueva de Andalucia and Estepona. I live about 1 hour and 30 minutes from you


You are a very nice man


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## el romeral

All the shenanigans around Gibralter today are having the desired effect as far as the corrupt Spanish politicians are concerned. First story on Antena 3 news tonight was Gibralter - for a whole 15 minutes. Economy and political stories pushed into second place with barely 2 minutes of coverage.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I dislike Gibraltar intensely. Great Yarmouth on heat. It's amazing how crossing a few feet of tarmac can transform an ambience.
> The fact that Gibraltar has some rather peculiar tax arrangements affects the Spanish Government only insofar as there are people avoiding Spanish tax by claiming residence in Gib whilst living in Spain. Picardo has agreed this is wrong and has pledged to work with the Spanish Government to end this.
> 
> I think the real importance of Gibraltar's tax arrangements are that the chief beneficiaries are the gaming industries and the financial sector. You'd think the UK Government would be uneasy with the fact that UK investors pour £billions into Gibraltar-based funds to avoid UK tax buit seemingly not. Yet we pay full UK tax on our comparatively puny investments in British banks in Gib.
> 
> My general view is that if the Gibraltarians , like the Falkland Islanders, wish to remain British, so be it. But when the UK Government enshrines this self-determination into an inviolable principle we can ask if the citizens of Hong Kong were consulted before being handed to China.
> 
> Tbh, this is one of the few things I'm not really that bothered about. I offered Gibraltar to my friend Juan in return for the loan of his trailer to remove our garden rubbish but he said No thanks.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is anywhere within reasonable travelling distance of, say, Marbella, where one can buy frozen Quorn? If so, I need never visit Gibraltar again...:madgrin:


I'm sure I've seen Quorn in the chiller cabinets in Mercadona when I've been looking for Cottage cheese (Requesón granulado) which makes an excellent light tea-time snack with canned fruit cocktail.


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## Aron

baldilocks said:


> I'm sure I've seen Quorn in the chiller cabinets in Mercadona when I've been looking for Cottage cheese (Requesón granulado) which makes an excellent light tea-time snack with canned fruit cocktail.


It's not in our Mercadona, but my wife thought might get it from Iceland in Fungirola.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I'm sure I've seen Quorn in the chiller cabinets in Mercadona when I've been looking for Cottage cheese (Requesón granulado) which makes an excellent light tea-time snack with canned fruit cocktail.


Another Very Nice Man

I'll put my specs on and have a peer in the freezer cabinet there tomorrow.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Another Very Nice Man
> 
> I'll put my specs on and have a peer in the freezer cabinet there tomorrow.


In ours it was in the chiller near the Requesón and Burgos, not in the freezer which I only visit to get sugar-free ice creams or frozen (and not salted) bacalao (for fish cakes, which are very popular in this house)


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## Pesky Wesky

Moving on from Quorn...
Latest on Gibraltar
Brussels to send observers to Gibraltar as dispute widens | In English | EL PAÍS
_Now, Rajoy has asked that the remit of the observers be extended to cover all activity in the British outpost to “verify that economic activity in Gibraltar does not contravene any European law governing money laundering, contraband and taxation,” according to a government press release.
_Sounds like this is getting more and more interesting


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## 90199

Pesky Wesky said:


> Moving on from Quorn...
> Latest on Gibraltar
> Brussels to send observers to Gibraltar as dispute widens | In English | EL PAÍS
> _Now, Rajoy has asked that the remit of the observers be extended to cover all activity in the British outpost to “verify that economic activity in Gibraltar does not contravene any European law governing money laundering, contraband and taxation,” according to a government press release.
> _Sounds like this is getting more and more interesting



Ah, the Spanish smoke screen thickens.


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## crookesey

With all the things currently going on in the world the Gibraltar/Spain differences pale into insignificance. I wouldn't imagine that anywhere is squeaky clean so would expect Gibraltar to be no different. If I recall correctly Gib was used by offshore workers to bed and breakfast legitimately earned money until they has sorted their eventual domicile out, their taxation is very low, but everyone knows that anyway. 

If Spain had any evidence of wrong doing they would have already shouted if from the roof tops, if the EU inspectors are allowed access to the books and find everything to be perfect, I would be gobsmacked.


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## Pesky Wesky

crookesey said:


> With all the things currently going on in the world the Gibraltar/Spain differences pale into insignificance. I wouldn't imagine that anywhere is squeaky clean so would expect Gibraltar to be no different.
> Agree
> If I recall correctly Gib was used by offshore workers to bed and breakfast legitimately earned money until they has sorted their eventual domicile out, their taxation is very low, but everyone knows that anyway.
> Don't know
> If Spain had any evidence of wrong doing they would have already shouted if from the roof tops, if the EU inspectors are allowed access to the books and find everything to be perfect, I would be gobsmacked.
> I wouldn't be at all.
> I would imagine that there just as many wrongdoings, violations of EU regulations and other such naughtiness on one side as on the other, but it's not in each others interests to blow the whistle - until somebody decides That's It!!
> I don't really think anything will come of it, because I said both sides have got skeletons in the cupboard, but if one side pulls the others bluff things could get really interesting,
> That's what I think anyway


***


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Moving on from Quorn...
> Latest on Gibraltar
> Brussels to send observers to Gibraltar as dispute widens | In English | EL PAÍS
> _Now, Rajoy has asked that the remit of the observers be extended to cover all activity in the British outpost to “verify that economic activity in Gibraltar does not contravene any European law governing money laundering, contraband and taxation,” according to a government press release.
> _Sounds like this is getting more and more interesting


I think that's fair enough. After all, there are people who are resident in Spain yet who rent property which they either don't use or sub-let to gain tax residency in Gibraltar which is very lucrative for high earners. I knpw for a fact that this happens so it's not anecdotal. I also know for a fact that people smuggle large quantities of tobacco from Gibraltar into Spain for resale in the UK. I know someone - not a friend, I don't have friends like that - who was caught at Madrid Airport with thousands of cheap cigarettes. I don't know the scale of this but Picardo has stated he will cooperate with the Spanish authorities to stamp this out. 
Imo the way to stamp out smuggling is to impose swingeing penalties on those caught_ pour encourager les autres_, as the French say. 
I was chatting with a Spanish friend this morning and it seems that Spanish opinion has been inflamed by Picardo's 'until hell freezes over' statement. On the whole, though, Spaniards I've spoken to are more concerned about the state of the economy and corruption.
I've no idea what the view from the urbs is but no doubt Daily Mail readers will be spluttering into their milky coffees at the latest Spanish outrage.
My Spanish friend concluded there was hypocrisy on both sides and that Spain should surrender Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco.
Apparently at 08.00 and 13.00 today traffic was passing freely into and out of Gibraltar.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I think that's fair enough.


Yes, me too


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> ***


EU Inspectors are not, of course, being asked to 'examine the books'. They are being asked to determine whether the current stringent frontier controls are proper and proportionate.

It seems that the EU has ruled that any attempt to impose a 50 euro tasa would be illegal.
So that knocks that one on the head.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I think that's fair enough. After all, there are people who are resident in Spain yet who rent property which they either don't use or sub-let to gain tax residency in Gibraltar which is very lucrative for high earners. I knpw for a fact that this happens so it's not anecdotal. I also know for a fact that people smuggle large quantities of tobacco from Gibraltar into Spain for resale in the UK. I know someone - not a friend, I don't have friends like that - who was caught at Madrid Airport with thousands of cheap cigarettes. I don't know the scale of this but Picardo has stated he will cooperate with the Spanish authorities to stamp this out.
> Imo the way to stamp out smuggling is to impose swingeing penalties on those caught_ pour encourager les autres_, as the French say.
> I was chatting with a Spanish friend this morning and it seems that Spanish opinion has been inflamed by Picardo's 'until hell freezes over' statement. On the whole, though, Spaniards I've spoken to are more concerned about the state of the economy and corruption.
> I've no idea what the view from the urbs is but no doubt Daily Mail readers will be spluttering into their milky coffees at the latest Spanish outrage.
> My Spanish friend concluded there was hypocrisy on both sides and that Spain should surrender Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco.
> Apparently at 08.00 and 13.00 today traffic was passing freely into and out of Gibraltar.


I still think it is more smoke and mirrors on both sides. The big questions are "what are they up to?"


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I still think it is more smoke and mirrors on both sides. The big questions are "what are they up to?"


PSOE Estepona put a very apt cartoon on my Facebook page: it showed Gibraltar as an iceberg with the tiny bit above the sea labelled 'Gibraltar' and the huge amount under water as 'Crisis y Corrupcion'.

It is of course the three hundredth anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Utrecht....

I don't think the British Government is up to anything, merely responding to Rajoy's sabre-rattling attempts to distract attention from the fact that he can't handle the economy. A time-honoured ploy, as with Kirchner and the Falklands/Malvinas.

What are you hearing from your Spanish mates, Pesky and Baldy?


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## 90199

Plus corruption allegations, our alcalde has just be given time and banned from office, same party too.


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## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> Plus corruption allegations, our alcalde has just be given time and banned from office, same party too.


The Alcalde of Manilva, formerly of Izquierda Unida, has been expelled/resigned from the Party, depending on who you believe, for nepotism and unspecified corruption allegations, but refuses to resign from the office of Mayor.. 
The Mayor apparently created lucrative Ayto. posts for family members.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> What are you hearing from your Spanish mates, Pesky and Baldy?


Sobre esta cuestión - absolutamente nada. 

About the scaffolding that is blocking our narrow road while they do our roof - a fair bit but we don't care and in fact you could say we are being quite roofless about it. The only one who is really inconvenienced is Manolo and his mula - saves us having caca de mula splattered on the street right outside our front door.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Sobre esta cuestión - absolutamente nada.
> 
> About the scaffolding that is blocking our narrow road while they do our roof - a fair bit but we don't care and in fact you could say we are being quite roofless about it. The only one who is really inconvenienced is Manolo and his mula - saves us having caca de mula splattered on the street right outside our front door.


Our neighbour has a new cockerel which crows loudly and often not only early in the morning but all day. She is more worried about whether the neighbours will get up a posse against it than Gibraltar.

A woman I chatted to whilst walking Xena was more concerned about the village roadsweeper neglecting to sweep outside her house.

The cockerel is a pain in the _****_ and I am tempted to purchase a catapult....

Whilst on the topic of roofless...one of the best ads I ever saw was on a billboard on the approach road to Stansted Airport, Can't remember the make of the car so on reflection maybe it wasn't that effective an ad but it showed a small red convertible under the strapline 'Mean and Roofless'.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> PSOE Estepona put a very apt cartoon on my Facebook page: it showed Gibraltar as an iceberg with the tiny bit above the sea labelled 'Gibraltar' and the huge amount under water as 'Crisis y Corrupcion'.
> 
> It is of course the three hundredth anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Utrecht....
> 
> I don't think the British Government is up to anything, merely responding to Rajoy's sabre-rattling attempts to distract attention from the fact that he can't handle the economy. A time-honoured ploy, as with Kirchner and the Falklands/Malvinas.
> 
> What are you hearing from your Spanish mates, Pesky and Baldy?


Nobody's made even a bad joke about it.
Maybe people nearer to Gib are hot under the collar about it, but Madridleños and Bilbainos might as well be on another planet.
Trending topic here is
The Temperature!!
I even hung the washing inside today as it was TOO HOT outside. It would have baked to a hard crisp, not dried if I'd put it outside


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## baldilocks

In actual fact we have been rather busy, too busy to keep up with the news. In addition to preparing everything for the builders, we have been doing some translation work for the Spanish poetess - Olvido García Valdés (Olvido García Valdés - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - which was complex since a lot of it was relating to her poetry (modern) and also poetic.


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## crookesey

Once we would have sent a gunboat, only a few years ago there would have been headlines with warnings to UK nationals about to travel to Spain, now who cares?

I reckon that this is some bizarre type of progress.


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## mrypg9

I thought we had sent a gunboat. Was that not HMS Westminster i saw docking at Gib? 
It was a boat, it had guns so I guess it was a gunboat...
But it was also supposed to be an aircraft carrier yet we have no aircraft to put on it, only helicopters.

Pesky, what was the temperature today? I visited Madrid only once, in August, remember only heat, dust and noise.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> In actual fact we have been rather busy, too busy to keep up with the news. In addition to preparing everything for the builders, we have been doing some translation work for the Spanish poetess - Olvido García Valdés (Olvido García Valdés - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - which was complex since a lot of it was relating to her poetry (modern) and also poetic.


Are you translating the actual poems??


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Are you translating the actual poems??


No only her notes for a talk she has to give.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I thought we had sent a gunboat. Was that not HMS Westminster i saw docking at Gib?
> It was a boat, it had guns so I guess it was a gunboat...
> But it was also supposed to be an aircraft carrier yet we have no aircraft to put on it, only helicopters.
> 
> Pesky, what was the temperature today? I visited Madrid only once, in August, remember only heat, dust and noise.


Well it was 43º when OH last looked, but that was about 14:00 as I recall (south facing) , and it got a couple of degrees warmer until about 17:00. In Madrid I'm guessing 46º or more
I just looked at 2 different sites for temperatures. One says 36º max for today and another 32º. Where do they get their info from???????????????


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well it was 43º when OH last looked, but that was about 14:00 as I recall (south facing) , and it got a couple of degrees warmer until about 17:00. In Madrid I'm guessing 46º or more
> I just looked at 2 different sites for temperatures. One says 36º max for today and another 32º. Where do they get their info from???????????????


I think they must take readings under a parasol on a high roof..
Our local weather report said a high of 31 C but our semi-shaded thermometer read 43C at 4.00 p.m.
But we have a slight poniente today, started off cloudy. The sun burnt the clouds around 11.00 a.m.


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## baldilocks

Don't forget that official temperatures are taken in the shade (proper shade with no reflected heat) over grass. Have just checked ours it is currently 34.5 and it was forecast for 35° today and it has certainly cooled down from earlier, so I guess it was probably nearer 37-38 or maybe more.

Have just watered the plants, shrubs and trees (when does a plant become a shrub or a tree?) on the patio.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I think they must take readings under a parasol on a high roof..
> Our local weather report said a high of 31 C but our semi-shaded thermometer read 43C at 4.00 p.m.
> But we have a slight poniente today, started off cloudy. The sun burnt the clouds around 11.00 a.m.


Huh, so you too, eh?
I heard we were on "Orange alert" or similar today on the news several times. 36º is not anything alert. It's a perfectly reasonable temp. Normally the temperatures are lower on the weather forecast anyway, but today the difference in forecasted and real temp is crazy!!:wacko::crazy::dizzy::wacko::crazy:


OR

Maybe it's just me


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## jimenato

Some things to ponder on determining temperature...

South or north facing makes no difference to a proper air temperature reading. 

Semi shade is useless and will always over-read. 

A thermometer will always tend to over rather than under-read air temperature.

Finding a spot where a thermometer will give a correct temperature is very difficult.

Car and farmacia thermometers always over-read.

The official temperatures published are probably right.


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## thrax

The return to topic smiley has gone so RETURN TO TOPIC!!! The weather eh?? Us Brits do so love to chat about it, but in the absolute knowledge that I will have caused serious offence by suggesting BACK TO TOPIC (where did it go?) I just wanted to say regarding GIB, are there not some more rather more serious problems in the world, eg Syria???? Why on earth have two western, allied governments allowed themselves to be drawn into such a completely pointless debate and fracas? (I don't get to use that word very often so I am very proud of myself). 50% unemployment in Spanish youth, why on earth do they now want to rattle the cage over Gib? Yes I know it is a tactic used by governments in crises but Gib is hardly the Falklands. Oh fiddledysticks. A brandy is all I need. Come on down Mr Rajoy and enjoy a beverage with me. Between us I am certain we can put the world to right. I might have to call on the services of Mary, especially as he is apparently capable of putting it away....


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## baldilocks

What you need is a Stephenson Screen to house your thermometer

Stevenson screen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - my first job after school was in the Met Office


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## baldilocks

thrax said:


> Come on down Mr Rajoy and enjoy a beverage with me. Between us I am certain we can put the world to right. I might have to call on the services of Mary, especially as he is apparently capable of putting it away....


How on earth can anyone trust a man with three women's names - Maria, Nora, Joy??


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Some things to ponder on determining temperature...
> 
> South or north facing makes no difference to a proper air temperature reading.
> 
> Semi shade is useless and will always over-read.
> 
> A thermometer will always tend to over rather than under-read air temperature.
> 
> Finding a spot where a thermometer will give a correct temperature is very difficult.
> 
> Car and farmacia thermometers always over-read.
> 
> The official temperatures published are probably right.


No way José/ Jimi
I know over 40º 's when it hits me in the face.
The front of our house faces south and the back north (I know, what a bad buy), and it was over 40º in both parts at some time during the day.
Also, if I go out to the front, all the walls and tiled flooring have heated up nicely, so whatever the official temp is, at the front of my house it's over and above. Over the road it's a different story.
In Madrid the official temperature is taken at the airport. 
Question - What's that got to do with Plaza Mayor in the centre of the city? 
Answer - absolutely nothing.

There's no airport where I am though, and I can tell you, the temp that was forecast today was wrong, not right and incorrect


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## thrax

OK now I am confused. Why has Gib raised the temperature??? Oh, now I think I see it. All your remarks about temperatures and Stevenson screens are in fact, just that. A screen.... Well split my sides


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## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> OK now I am confused. Why has Gib raised the temperature??? Oh, now I think I see it. All your remarks about temperatures and Stevenson screens are in fact, just that. A screen.... Well split my sides


I thought it was mildly more interesting that Quorn

Could be wrong though...


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## thrax

The blessed god of Quorn will visit you very quick. Quorn, the most wonderful thing since sliced maggot...


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## VFR

Am I right in remembering that a good few years back Gib told the RN to ****** off with their nuclear powered ship/sub ?

No Sir you cannot come in here (or words to that effect)


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## mrypg9

thrax said:


> The blessed god of Quorn will visit you very quick. Quorn, the most wonderful thing since sliced maggot...


Do not jest about Quorn without which OH would surely have starved in Prague


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## jimenato

They might have said it but the sub went in anyway. HMS Tireless.



> In May 2000, Tireless developed a serious leak in the nuclear reactor primary cooling circuit, although there was no leak of radioactive material. The nuclear propulsion system was shut down and using backup diesel power Tireless made way to Gibraltar. The damage was found to be more extensive than first thought, and the boat remained at Gibraltar, creating diplomatic tensions between Spain and Britain, until she left on 7 May 2001, nearly a year later following extensive repairs


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> No way José/ Jimi
> I know over 40º 's when it hits me in the face.
> The front of our house faces south and the back north (I know, what a bad buy), and it was over 40º in both parts at some time during the day.
> Also, if I go out to the front, all the walls and tiled flooring have heated up nicely, so whatever the official temp is, at the front of my house it's over and above. Over the road it's a different story.
> In Madrid the official temperature is taken at the airport.
> Question - What's that got to do with Plaza Mayor in the centre of the city?
> Answer - absolutely nothing.
> 
> There's no airport where I am though, and I can tell you, the temp that was forecast today was wrong, not right and incorrect


Yes, you are quite right Pesky - local air temperatures vary considerably and are of course relevant to what one personally feels. I guess Baldi and I being over-purist and are talking about meteorological temperature which should be measured well away from buildings and so on - even trees.

The main thing to be careful about is having a thermometer anywhere near any sunlight whether direct or reflected - that's just wrong.


----------



## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> Yes, you are quite right Pesky - local air temperatures vary considerably and are of course relevant to what one personally feels. I guess Baldi and I being over-purist and are talking about meteorological temperature which should be measured well away from buildings and so on - even trees.
> 
> The main thing to be careful about is having a thermometer anywhere near any sunlight whether direct or reflected - that's just wrong.


Currently 28.5° with RH of 58% Forecast for mid morning is 32° and 45%


----------



## mrypg9

thrax said:


> The return to topic smiley has gone so RETURN TO TOPIC!!! The weather eh?? Us Brits do so love to chat about it, but in the absolute knowledge that I will have caused serious offence by suggesting BACK TO TOPIC (where did it go?) I just wanted to say regarding GIB, are there not some more rather more serious problems in the world, eg Syria???? Why on earth have two western, allied governments allowed themselves to be drawn into such a completely pointless debate and fracas? (I don't get to use that word very often so I am very proud of myself). 50% unemployment in Spanish youth, why on earth do they now want to rattle the cage over Gib? Yes I know it is a tactic used by governments in crises but Gib is hardly the Falklands. Oh fiddledysticks. A brandy is all I need. Come on down Mr Rajoy and enjoy a beverage with me. Between us I am certain we can put the world to right. I might have to call on the services of Mary, especially as he is apparently capable of putting it away....



I only go to Gibraltar, now the focus of a dispute between Spain and the UK over territorial waters, to buy Quorn, but won't go in these searing temperatures because of the long queues at the border.

On and off-topic in one sentence...

Yes, people are dying in Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc. but realistically what can we do and should we get involved in more foreign adventures after the pointless deaths of so many of our armed forces in Afghanistan not to mention the many more civilian deaths...
The only British intervention abroad which did any good was in Sierra Leone during the Blair reign and that was nothing to do with the UK Government to begin with, it was down to the common sense, compassion and intiative of the commander of the British detachment there who saw civilians suffering at the hands of armed rebels and took decisive action which the Government later bandwaggoned..
At least we can huff and puff to some effect over Gibraltar.

As for calling on my services: I'm old and past it, thrax...Talking to the Estepona Ayto about dogs wears me out, let alone talking to Rajoy about Gib...Me powers, such as they ever were, are waning fast..

So no brandy with Rajoy -I'm not allowed to drink what my peasant Gran called 'sperrits' anyway - but I'd love to drink an agua con gas with you, PW and Baldy any day.


----------



## jimenato

jimenato said:


> They might have said it but the sub went in anyway. HMS Tireless.


US nuclear powered submarines have visited Gibraltar and also Rota. Don't hear much protesting about that do we?


----------



## Justina

Does the no 'sperrits' also include wine?


----------



## thrax

mrypg9 said:


> I only go to Gibraltar, now the focus of a dispute between Spain and the UK over territorial waters, to buy Quorn, but won't go in these searing temperatures because of the long queues at the border.
> 
> On and off-topic in one sentence...
> 
> Yes, people are dying in Syria, Iraq, Egypt etc. but realistically what can we do and should we get involved in more foreign adventures after the pointless deaths of so many of our armed forces in Afghanistan not to mention the many more civilian deaths...
> The only British intervention abroad which did any good was in Sierra Leone during the Blair reign and that was nothing to do with the UK Government to begin with, it was down to the common sense, compassion and intiative of the commander of the British detachment there who saw civilians suffering at the hands of armed rebels and took decisive action which the Government later bandwaggoned..
> At least we can huff and puff to some effect over Gibraltar.
> 
> As for calling on my services: I'm old and past it, thrax...Talking to the Estepona Ayto about dogs wears me out, let alone talking to Rajoy about Gib...Me powers, such as they ever were, are waning fast..
> 
> So no brandy with Rajoy -I'm not allowed to drink what my peasant Gran called 'sperrits' anyway - but I'd love to drink an agua con gas with you, PW and Baldy any day.


I don't know how we could arrange that but one day - you never know. If nothing else maybe a Skype 4 way conversation..... lol


----------



## mrypg9

Justina said:


> Does the no 'sperrits' also include wine?


Fortunately no.  I'm a living example of the 'I was perfectly healthy until I went to the doctor' syndrome Went for a check-up and found I had a life-threatening condition!
So...limited coffee..the doc's face went pale when she asked how many cups of coffee I drank each day and I said about ten...I'm a non-tea drinker...
Not wishing to die just yet I followed doc's orders, have shed several kilos, only one glass of good wine a day...well, tbh, a large glass...and I do feel great.
I would advise every over fifty to go for their free check-up. No sense in dying of ignorance, as they say.
If I hadn't learnt that half my heart had packed up I'd probably have done something stupid like go for a hike in the mountains in the midday heat and keeled over


----------



## Justina

Thanks for your advice and think I will go in September.


----------



## mrypg9

Justina said:


> Thanks for your advice and think I will go in September.


Make sure you do!

Our town has an ugly-named Gabinete Geriatrico funded bu the Ayto. It's a horrible name and I had almost to be dragged there kicking and screaming because of it but well worth a visit.


----------



## mrypg9

*According* to El Pais the GC have prevented trucks laden with Spanish sand from entering Gibraltar.The sand was to be used for constructing a beach adjacent to a luxury development of apartments and a hotel
The sand was sold to the Gibraltar company by a Spanish company in Tarifa sanctioned by the PP Alcalde..


----------



## thrax

Looks like it's toys out of the cot time...


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> The sand was sold to the Gibraltar company by a Spanish company in Tarifa sanctioned by the PP Alcalde..


And the alcalde's connection with the Spanish sand and ballast merchants? Was it beach sand or that awful quarry sand that turns everything orange or, even worse, that grey stuff that is more like gravel?


----------



## VFR

mrypg9 said:


> *According* to El Pais the GC have prevented trucks laden with Spanish sand from entering Gibraltar.The sand was to be used for constructing a beach adjacent to a luxury development of apartments and a hotel
> The sand was sold to the Gibraltar company by a Spanish company in Tarifa sanctioned by the PP Alcalde..


Strange I thought they would have encouraged this as could then claim it as Spanish land.


----------



## Aron

This dispute reminds me of a Grouch Marx quote

Politics is the art of looking for problems,
finding them everywhere, 
diagnosing them incorrectly
and coming up with the wrong remedies!


----------



## crookesey

This calls for sticky out tongues and the baring of bums, not at the same time of course, unless you're a contortionist.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> And the alcalde's connection with the Spanish sand and ballast merchants? Was it beach sand or that awful quarry sand that turns everything orange or, even worse, that grey stuff that is more like gravel?


I dunno
But it must be posh sand because it was for a luxury development.


----------



## malaga

To be honest what is happening in Gib is nothing new, over the years the Spanish have caused inconvenience on a regular basis, I can remember three hour queues to get in and out as far back as 20 years ago, also Spanish police nicking people from Gib because they didn't recognise their driving licences.
It's not new and will keep happening from time to time.


----------



## mrypg9

malaga said:


> To be honest what is happening in Gib is nothing new, over the years the Spanish have caused inconvenience on a regular basis, I can remember three hour queues to get in and out as far back as 20 years ago, also Spanish police nicking people from Gib because they didn't recognise their driving licences.
> It's not new and will keep happening from time to time.


In the late 1970s I think it was the border was closed completely for years.


----------



## crookesey

Does anyone recall the UK residents in Spain making their duty free buying trips to Gib? I know that these were limited, but can't remember the details. They used to bring back UK tobacco, UK spirits, and things like butter and tins of salmon plus all sorts of other things not available on the Spanish mainland.


----------



## baldilocks

crookesey said:


> Does anyone recall the UK residents in Spain making their duty free buying trips to Gib? I know that these were limited, but can't remember the details. They used to bring back UK tobacco, UK spirits, and things like butter and tins of salmon plus all sorts of other things not available on the Spanish mainland.


Some of them still do- yet another annoyance to the Spanish - if you want to live in Spain - shop in Spain, if you want to shop in Gib - live there


----------



## crookesey

crookesey said:


> Does anyone recall the UK residents in Spain making their duty free buying trips to Gib? I know that these were limited, but can't remember the details. They used to bring back UK tobacco, UK spirits, and things like butter and tins of salmon plus all sorts of other things not available on the Spanish mainland.


Bump.

I just wondered why and what the prices were, I wouldn't even think about making that trip just to save a few bob.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Some of them still do- yet another annoyance to the Spanish - if you want to live in Spain - shop in Spain, if you want to shop in Gib - live there


Well yes but - dare I say it once more if I can get Quorn in Spain , no Gibraltar. If not, a forty minute drive to Gib twice a year.


----------



## Aron

crookesey said:


> Does anyone recall the UK residents in Spain making their duty free buying trips to Gib? I know that these were limited, but can't remember the details. They used to bring back UK tobacco, UK spirits, and things like butter and tins of salmon plus all sorts of other things not available on the Spanish mainland.


Shopping trips to Gibraltar are run on a regular basis. Every week there are coach loads of expats going shopping in Gibraltat. Nearly every RBL club runs regular coaches. There are few things that are difficult to buy in Spain which you can find in Gib. My favourite being a fresh Melton Mowbrey pork pie. I know where I can buy them frozen in Spain though.
Every person shopping in Gib is only allowed to bring either £200 or €200 back through customs. They are also limited on what cigarettes and tobacco goods. Anyone on a coach has to get off and walk through customs with their purchases.
Personally it beats me why they bother. The few things we can't get in Spain to me, is not with the hassle. I dislike going to Gib for any reason. I have been to the town twice. It was overcrowded and the coffee was lousy and expensive.
We came to live in Spain, enjoy the Spanish way of life and the food we buy in Spain is excellent.


----------



## jimenato

Aron said:


> Shopping trips to Gibraltar are run on a regular basis. Every week there are coach loads of expats going shopping in Gibraltat. Nearly every RBL club runs regular coaches. There are few things that are difficult to buy in Spain which you can find in Gib. My favourite being a fresh Melton Mowbrey pork pie. I know where I can buy them frozen in Spain though.
> Every person shopping in Gib is only allowed to bring either £200 or €200 back through customs. They are also limited on what cigarettes and tobacco goods. Anyone on a coach has to get off and walk through customs with their purchases.
> Personally it beats me why they bother. The few things we can't get in Spain to me, is not with the hassle. I dislike going to Gib for any reason. I have been to the town twice. It was overcrowded and the coffee was lousy and expensive.
> We came to live in Spain, enjoy the Spanish way of life and the food we buy in Spain is excellent.


Yes - aside from a few very English things it's hardly worth going to Gib for shopping. We do once every few months but only because it's less than half an hour away - we wouldn't bother otherwise. 

We go for treats - pork pies, scotch eggs, pasties, black pudding, sausages, parsnips, swedes, HP, Branston - not much else. 

Tobacco is much cheaper but neither of us smoke. It's worth filling up with diesel but not worth a special trip.

Unlike most people I actually quite like Gib - it's different. I couldn't possibly live there but the odd visit is quite fun.

Incidentally I would guess that 90% of the people who go into Gib to buy stuff are Spanish - if only for tobacco and fuel..


----------



## Madliz

Could you imagine the British Police or authorities behaving in such a fashion?

Spanish police criticised for Gibraltar diving stunt - Telegraph


----------



## Aron

Madliz said:


> Could you imagine the British Police or authorities behaving in such a fashion?
> 
> Spanish police criticised for Gibraltar diving stunt - Telegraph


No I can't, but what astonishes me more is why they would dump concrete blocks in the water. Surely whoever gave the order knew it would it would infuriate the Spanish authorities. The amount of fish in those waters is not worth all this agro!


----------



## jimenato

Aron said:


> No I can't, but what astonishes me more is why they would dump concrete blocks in the water. Surely whoever gave the order knew it would it would infuriate the Spanish authorities. The amount of fish in those waters is not worth all this agro!


Well they've been doing it for 40 years - so why should they suddenly start objecting?


----------



## baldilocks

Aron said:


> No I can't, but what astonishes me more is why they would dump concrete blocks in the water. Surely whoever gave the order knew it would it would infuriate the Spanish authorities. The amount of fish in those waters is not worth all this agro!


Which, all the more, tends to bear out the assumption that this is more smoke and mirrors to cover up dubious government goings-on (maybe) on both sides.


----------



## 90199

jimenato said:


> Well they've been doing it for 40 years - so why should they suddenly start objecting?



To deflect the flack from the corruption allegations and the state of the economy.

On the other hand the President of Gib and the Mayor of La Linea, are coming to a conciliatory agreement, which if approved by the Parliament in Gib, will allow the return of the 59 Spanish boats that have habitually fish the waters.


----------



## jimenato

Hepa said:


> To deflect the flack from the corruption allegations and the state of the economy.
> 
> Quite!
> 
> On the other hand the President of Gib and the Mayor of La Linea, are coming to a conciliatory agreement, which if approved by the Parliament in Gib, will allow the return of the 59 Spanish boats that have habitually fish the waters.
> 
> Left to the locals the situation would never have happened, or if it did, would have been sorted out in hours.


...


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> ...


Most issues are best solved like that.
It's forgotten in all this flagwaving from all parties that for centuries there has been no barrier where the mingling of ordinary people is concerned. Many Gibraltarians and Spaniards intermarried and had families on both sides of the border, something which led to the making of heaetbreaking choices when Franco closed the border for all those years.
I have a friend who is Gibraltarian. Her mother was from Gibraltar, her father Spanish. As you'd expect she is bilingual.
She is not wealthy, doesn't smuggle, doesn't fiddle her taxes....like most Gibraltarians, in fact, who are too often portrayed as being filthy rich tax dodgers, drug runners, people smugglers or worse.
Ordinary Spaniards and Gibraltarians are the ones suffering in this dispute, not Hague, Rajoy or Picardo.

Btw, Spain has dropped similar 'reefs' at various places along the coast. Approved by Spanish environmental organisations too.


----------



## baldilocks

It wouldn't surprise me, if we were to ever find out, that there might be a bit of someone trying to emulate MT and the Falklands to boost his and his shambles of a party's ratings in time for the next election just as he has craftily said "we'll have a referendum on the EU if you vote for me!"; and the Falange (what ever the petty h*tler of the UKIP is called) has said "b*gger the referendum, vote for me and we are out of the EU!" or words to that effect


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> It wouldn't surprise me, if we were to ever find out, that there might be a bit of someone trying to emulate MT and the Falklands to boost his and his shambles of a party's ratings in time for the next election just as he has craftily said "we'll have a referendum on the EU if you vote for me!"; and the Falange (what ever the petty h*tler of the UKIP is called) has said "b*gger the referendum, vote for me and we are out of the EU!" or words to that effect


Well, Rajoy is alleged to be ganging up with Cristina Whatsername in Argentina to press their cases jointly at the UN whilst Argentina is a member of the Security Council.


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9;1476897
Btw said:


> !4 different places actually & unlike the Gibraltarians , who paid for there own reef & have approval, the Spanish ones have all been 75% EU funded.


----------



## Aron

gus-lopez said:


> !4 different places actually & unlike the Gibraltarians , who paid for there own reef & have approval, the Spanish ones have all been 75% EU funded.


Fish conservation everywhere, it is too little too late. Every fishing boat is out looking for fish that was once abundant. The Gibraltarians say that is their motive and the British government fully support it, but the Icelanders Had exclusion zone which affected British trawler men and the British government of the day wouldn't accept it. If something affects a country nationally, then it's not acceptable. Look at the North Sea. It used to be full of the finest cod,but cod is almost a rare species there now. Most of the fish consumed in Spain comes from the South Atlantic, even their squid, but how much longer before the same happens to their fishing grounds!


----------



## Justina

I doubt very much that Rajoy and Kirchner are on speaking terms, at the moment. She privatised Repsol's company shares in Argentina. It is true that not too much has been said, but doubt if they will appear as great friends in the immediate future.


----------



## Justina

Sorry, should have said nationalised, not privatised.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> !4 different places actually & unlike the Gibraltarians , who paid for there own reef & have approval, the Spanish ones have all been 75% EU funded.


I had no idea.
4 or 14 places Gus?
Could you tell me where?


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> I had no idea.
> 4 or 14 places Gus?
> Could you tell me where?


Malaga , granada, Almeria.

" Gibraltarians said they were confused by the Spanish attack on the reef because it has been a model for many others built along the coasts of Malaga, Granada and Almería. Spain has received millions of euros from the EU to create reefs. Some have become tourist destinations, attracting divers."

Gibraltar row: Spain 'misinformed' over artificial reef | Environment | theguardian.com

This is another article. The one I was reading before stated where they all were. 14 in total, apparently.


----------



## gus-lopez

This 2002 article shows a map of all european artificial reefs, existing then . 

S4

http://140.121.160.124/sm/961_2/李佳遠.pdf


----------



## baldilocks

gus-lopez said:


> This 2002 article shows a map of all european artificial reefs, existing then .
> 
> S4
> 
> http://140.121.160.124/sm/961_2/李佳遠.pdf


Thanks for that, it is a very interesting article.


----------



## GUAPACHICA

Aron said:


> No I can't, but what astonishes me more is why they would dump concrete blocks in the water. Surely whoever gave the order knew it would it would infuriate the Spanish authorities. The amount of fish in those waters is not worth all this agro!


Hi - Yes, of course the decision was made to dump the concrete blocks regardless (or even to incite..) the certain Spanish response!

IMO, there's a strong similarity here with the behaviour of the Israelis in relation to the Palestinians - the former can get away with whatever they like, because they've got unswerving US support, so world opinion and the UN can be safely ignored! Gibraltar, as a British Overseas Territory, knows it has the total backing of the UK Govt. and would be defended with force, if ever it were under real threat - so its Chief Minister can afford to thumb his nose at Spain's Rajoy, any time he likes, from just across the bay..! 

As we know, foolish, childish games can have unexpected and even tragic consequences! IMO, it's foolhardy and reckless in the extreme for the current players to assume that the potentially explosive mix of warships, Police launches, divers, concrete blocks, fishing boats, disputed waters, a shared small bay and Governments in crisis will not precipitate an escalation of ill will - with the potential for disaster for everyone concerned! 

Isn't it time that the politicians grew up and learnt to act with maturity and wisdom on our behalf? Nationalistic jingoism should have no place in our Europe of the 21st century!

BTW, please note that my reference to the Israeli/USA/Palestinian issue was specifically in relation to the guaranteed, unequivocal support which Israel enjoys and which frees it to act as it pleases. Obviously, Gibraltar is not an independent state, so the similarity stops right there!

Saludos,
GC


----------



## jimenato

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - Yes, of course the decision was made to dump the concrete blocks regardless (or even to incite..) the certain Spanish response!
> 
> IMO, there's a strong similarity here with the behaviour of the Israelis in relation to the Palestinians - the former can get away with whatever they like, because they've got unswerving US support, so world opinion and the UN can be safely ignored! Gibraltar, as a British Overseas Territory, knows it has the total backing of the UK Govt. and would be defended with force, if ever it were under real threat - so its Chief Minister can afford to thumb his nose at Spain's Rajoy, any time he likes, from just across the bay..!
> 
> As we know, foolish, childish games can have unexpected and even tragic consequences! IMO, it's foolhardy and reckless in the extreme for the current players to assume that the potentially explosive mix of warships, Police launches, divers, concrete blocks, fishing boats, disputed waters, a shared small bay and Governments in crisis will not precipitate an escalation of ill will - with the potential for disaster for everyone concerned!
> 
> Isn't it time that the politicians grew up and learnt to act with maturity and wisdom on our behalf? Nationalistic jingoism should have no place in our Europe of the 21st century!
> 
> BTW, please note that my reference to the Israeli/USA/Palestinian issue was specifically in relation to the guaranteed, unequivocal support which Israel enjoys and which frees it to act as it pleases. Obviously, Gibraltar is not an independent state, so the similarity stops right there!
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


So why have the Spanish only reacted to this after 40 years?


----------



## Aron

To have an agreement, political or otherwise in any dispute, you have to have a compromise. It is to be hoped a compromise is being worked out behind closed doors and a result can be found, sooner rather than later.
I'm not really sure what's actually going on. So far the only casualty may be the truth!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Malaga , granada, Almeria.
> 
> " Gibraltarians said they were confused by the Spanish attack on the reef because it has been a model for many others built along the coasts of Malaga, Granada and Almería. Spain has received millions of euros from the EU to create reefs. Some have become tourist destinations, attracting divers."
> 
> Gibraltar row: Spain 'misinformed' over artificial reef | Environment | theguardian.com
> 
> This is another article. The one I was reading before stated where they all were. 14 in total, apparently.


Ah ha!
I heard something about the dumping being something to do with building an urbanizacion so was that hype/ me getting stories mixed up/ a journalist making a mistake...?
Anybody else hear that story?


----------



## mrypg9

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - Yes, of course the decision was made to dump the concrete blocks regardless (or even to incite..) the certain Spanish response!
> 
> IMO, there's a strong similarity here with the behaviour of the Israelis in relation to the Palestinians - the former can get away with whatever they like, because they've got unswerving US support, so world opinion and the UN can be safely ignored! Gibraltar, as a British Overseas Territory, knows it has the total backing of the UK Govt. and would be defended with force, if ever it were under real threat - so its Chief Minister can afford to thumb his nose at Spain's Rajoy, any time he likes, from just across the bay..!
> 
> As we know, foolish, childish games can have unexpected and even tragic consequences! IMO, it's foolhardy and reckless in the extreme for the current players to assume that the potentially explosive mix of warships, Police launches, divers, concrete blocks, fishing boats, disputed waters, a shared small bay and Governments in crisis will not precipitate an escalation of ill will - with the potential for disaster for everyone concerned!
> 
> Isn't it time that the politicians grew up and learnt to act with maturity and wisdom on our behalf? Nationalistic jingoism should have no place in our Europe of the 21st century!
> 
> BTW, please note that my reference to the Israeli/USA/Palestinian issue was specifically in relation to the guaranteed, unequivocal support which Israel enjoys and which frees it to act as it pleases. Obviously, Gibraltar is not an independent state, so the similarity stops right there!
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


Hmm. I agree with much of that but in each instance, Palestine and Gibraltar, self-determination is the issue. As I whole-heartedly support it for the Palestinians, so I support it for the people of Gibraltar.
Historically, Gibraltar has been left in peace only when a PSOE government has been in power in Spain. Franco closed the border for years. Now it's serving the PP as a useful distraction from crisis and corruption.
AS for what you term 'nationalistic jingoism'....national sentiment, along with ethnic and religious allegiance, is one of the strongest human emotions, something the Left denies or ignores, closing its eyes to historical evidence.. 
This is shown most strongly by events after the collapse of socialism in the old USSR. Religious, national and ethnic rivalries the socialists thought they had 'educated' out of human consciousness swiftly came to the fore. Same in the Middle East and in parts of East Asia.
Like you, I deplore this trait in human nature. I honestly don't know how we can tame or rein in these atavistic passions we all have to a greater or lesser degree, if we're honest.
It comes out in all kinds of ways...with me, it's usually when watching 'my' team or England kicking a ball around a field.
So comparatively harmless.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ah ha!
> I heard something about the dumping being something to do with building an urbanizacion so was that hype/ me getting stories mixed up/ a journalist making a mistake...?
> Anybody else hear that story?


Yes, but it was about a cargo of sand intended for dumping to create a beach for a luxury apartment and hotel complex in Gibraltar. 
Apparently the sand had been sold to the Gib company by a Spanish company, somehow a PP Alcalde was involved in some alleged skullduggery connected with it...
Anyway, the cargo was turned back at the border.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, but it was about a cargo of sand intended for dumping to create a beach for a luxury apartment and hotel complex in Gibraltar.
> Apparently the sand had been sold to the Gib company by a Spanish company, somehow a PP Alcalde was involved in some alleged skullduggery connected with it...
> Anyway, the cargo was turned back at the border.


Yep, that's probably it.
Thanks Mary!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Justina said:


> I doubt very much that Rajoy and Kirchner are on speaking terms, at the moment. She privatised Repsol's company shares in Argentina. It is true that not too much has been said, but doubt if they will appear as great friends in the immediate future.


It seems that they are on better terms than we thought...
_The government of President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner has announced that it is prepared to organize a joint offensive with Spain over Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, which has once again become a burning issue for Buenos Aires in the past few years. __But at the same time the Spanish government has its own dispute with Argentina that could come into play as both countries seek common ground to confront London._
_When García-Margallo meets with his counterpart, Héctor Timerman, it will also be to discuss the ongoing squabble over the Argentinean government’s expropriation last year of the YPF affiliate of the Spanish oil company Repsol._
_But taking the Gibraltar dispute to the United Nations and demanding formally that London give up its sovereignty claims to Gibraltar is just one of the many options the Spanish government is studying. In June, the United Nations Special Decolonization Committee discussed the Gibraltar issue at its regular meeting._

Spain looks to Argentina for common front on Gibraltar | In English | EL PAÍS


----------



## Navas

Gibraltar To Be Towed To Falkland Islands For Safe Keeping


----------



## mrypg9

Navas said:


> Gibraltar To Be Towed To Falkland Islands For Safe Keeping


That may be true..
We took the dogs out at seven this morning as usual...but when we looked across the bay to where Gibraltar should be...nada!!
Sandra says it is merely shrouded by mist but I think we cunning Brits have towed it away for safekeeping as the piece suggests.


----------



## Aron

In Argentina, Spain is known as, La Madre Patria.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Aron said:


> In Argentina, Spain is known as, La Madre Patria.


As it is in many countries in Latin America, with the obvious exception of Brazil, surinam etc


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> As it is in many countries in Latin America, with the obvious exception of Brazil, surinam etc


Just as citizens of the Empire/Commonwealth used to refer to Great Britain..the mother country...


----------



## gus-lopez

Taken from an article about Gibraltar's tax status.

" However, in Spain these arguments do not convince. "Here, a tax haven is a place that has a VAT of less than 21 percent, a marginal rate of income tax of less than 56 percent and a tax on companies that is less than 30 percent of their profits," says Paula Papp, an expert from International Financial Analysts."

So what she is saying is that all these EU state's are 'tax haven's'.

Bulgaria 20%
Germany 19%
Estonia 20%
France 19,6%Cyprus 18%
Luxembourg 15%
Malta 18%Austria20%
Slovakia 20%
United Kingdom 20%
Make 's you wonder where they get these people from


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## Aron

gus-lopez said:


> Taken from an article about Gibraltar's tax status.
> 
> " However, in Spain these arguments do not convince. "Here, a tax haven is a place that has a VAT of less than 21 percent, a marginal rate of income tax of less than 56 percent and a tax on companies that is less than 30 percent of their profits," says Paula Papp, an expert from International Financial Analysts."
> 
> So what she is saying is that all these EU state's are 'tax haven's'.
> 
> Bulgaria 20%
> Germany 19%
> Estonia 20%
> France 19,6%Cyprus 18%
> Luxembourg 15%
> Malta 18%Austria20%
> Slovakia 20%
> United Kingdom 20%
> Make 's you wonder where they get these people from


If you read Wikipedia, Taxation in Gibraltar, you get a better picture on the subject. Many British bookmakers operate out of Gibraltar. They don't go there for the climate, they go because they pay less tax!


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## jimenato

Aron said:


> If you read Wikipedia, Taxation in Gibraltar, you get a better picture on the subject. Many British bookmakers operate out of Gibraltar. They don't go there for the climate, they go because they pay less tax!


So different legislatures have different tax rates and policies. It's the same the world over and I don't see why Gibraltar should be a particular problem.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> So different legislatures have different tax rates and policies. It's the same the world over and I don't see why Gibraltar should be a particular problem.


I think one problem is people who claim Gibraltar tax status but are resident more than the required 180-whatever days in Spain.
I can understand the Spanish Government not liking that...


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> I think one problem is people who claim Gibraltar tax status but are resident more than the required 180-whatever days in Spain.
> I can understand the Spanish Government not liking that...


Absolutely. And I hear from my friends who work in Gibraltar that the Spanish tax authorities are starting to do something about it.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Absolutely. And I hear from my friends who work in Gibraltar that the Spanish tax authorities are starting to do something about it.


Yup. Quite right too.
Picardo has said he'll co-operate with the Spanish authorities on this.
As has been pointed out earlier, Gibraltar has tax rates which are no better and in some instances worse than many other countries. Some may disapprove but it's perfectly legal.
Activities such as claiming false residence, tobacco smuggling, people smuggling, currency laundering and so on aren't and should be stamped on.


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## tommy.irene

http://fw.to/GvcAV7Q


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## baldilocks

tommy.irene said:


> http://fw.to/GvcAV7Q


Not a very good photoshop job - the "army" are ghosts - they have no shadows!, the flag must be huge and would never be supported on such a flimsy looking pole.

Typical DT reporting:
"Fabian Picardo sought to diffuse tensions" I hope he is going to dEfuse tensions!


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## jimenato

Here's one view of Gibraltar from a Spanish journalist...



> In Gibraltar, the economy is a sensitive subject. The reason is obvious: it is doing very well. Last year, if it had been part of the IMF ranking of nations, it would have had the fourth-highest income per capita in the world, with 41,138 pounds (47,847 euros) a year. In just one year it would have risen from ninth to fourth, driven by an economy growing at 7.8 percent annually. How has it achieved this?


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## Alcalaina

I wonder what effect this will have on UK-Gibraltar relations? 



> The [British] government has announced a £300m clampdown on tax avoidance by gambling operators that base themselves outside the UK but target British customers.
> 
> New rules and penalties are designed to make sure gaming companies with British gamblers pay taxes to the Treasury from next year, wherever they are based. The change will affect some of gambling's biggest names. Ladbrokes, Bwin.party, William Hill and Betfair all have online operations based in Gibraltar, where taxes are levied at 1% and capped at £425,000.
> 
> It means that from 1 December 2014, all offshore gambling companies will be taxed on their gambling profits from UK customers. They will be liable to pay remote gaming duty, general betting duty or pool betting duty, all of which are 15%.
> 
> The UK remote gambling market is worth more than £2bn a year, according to the Gambling Commission. The Treasury said the rule changes would bring in about £300m a year in extra tax revenues.
> 
> Offshore gaming tax rule to net £300m | Politics | The Guardian


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, but it was about a cargo of sand intended for dumping to create a beach for a luxury apartment and hotel complex in Gibraltar.
> Apparently the sand had been sold to the Gib company by a Spanish company, somehow a PP Alcalde was involved in some alleged skullduggery connected with it...
> Anyway, the cargo was turned back at the border.


Yep, the sand was being taken from Playa Valdevaqueros, Tarifa - one of the best blue-flag beaches on the Costa de la Luz!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I wonder what effect this will have on UK-Gibraltar relations?


Good!! 
Next step, Starbucks, e-bay, the Barclay Brothers...

WElcome back!


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## Aron

25 years ago I worked with a guy who was a semi pro footballer, and he said he used to play cricket for Gibraltar. I thought he was having a laugh, but it was true. Where on earth do they find room to play cricket there. They do play international matches, but do they only play away games!


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## jimenato

Hi Alca - where've you been? Good to see you back!

I'm somewhat surprised that the UK can do that and, if they can, why they haven't done it before.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Good!!
> Next step, Starbucks, e-bay, the Barclay Brothers...
> 
> WElcome back!


Thank you. I couldn't resist popping in to see what you were all saying about _el asunto gibraltareño_! 

Nobody round here seems too bothered about the sovereignty thing (but they certainly like the cheap **** sold under the counter at most local bars).

Our town football team is playing the Gibraltar Lions on Friday. That's FAR more important.


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Hi Alca - where've you been? Good to see you back!
> 
> I'm somewhat surprised that the UK can do that and, if they can, why they haven't done it before.


Yes I was surprised too, I wondered if anyone here had any ideas.

I'm also curious about how they are going to know what percentage of Ladbrokes' etc customers are in the UK, unless they are tracking IP activity?


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I'm also curious about how they are going to know what percentage of Ladbrokes' etc customers are in the UK, unless they are tracking IP activity?


Well, since we now know that NASA and GCHQ are able to track all our calls, e-mails etc. I'm sure that won't be a major problem for them..


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## gus-lopez

It will have to be done on trust as there is now way that they can ascertain that the 'IP' address is actually where the person is.


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## Aron

gus-lopez said:


> It will have to be done on trust as there is now way that they can ascertain that the 'IP' address is actually where the person is.


It can go way beyond IP addresses. Anyone you associate with online, they can track you via their communications. If you had moblie phone and decided to buy a new one, they can still follow you by tapping into anyone you had on your address book. It's more difficult if you remove all known associates, but who does that!


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## Alcalaina

Aron said:


> It can go way beyond IP addresses. Anyone you associate with online, they can track you via their communications. If you had moblie phone and decided to buy a new one, they can still follow you by tapping into anyone you had on your address book. It's more difficult if you remove all known associates, but who does that!


Yes, I forgot that most online betting is done via mobile phones these days. I even read about some new wristwatch that would do it! Gone are the days of nipping into the Tote on a Saturday morning and riffling through the Sporting Life ... 

So calculating the winnings of UK bets placed with Gibraltar companies is theoretically possible then?


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## Aron

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I forgot that most online betting is done via mobile phones these days. I even read about some new wristwatch that would do it! Gone are the days of nipping into the Tote on a Saturday morning and riffling through the Sporting Life ...
> 
> So calculating the winnings of UK bets placed with Gibraltar companies is theoretically possible then?


I gave up betting on anything once I realised bookies don't ride bicycles!


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## baldilocks

Aron said:


> I gave up betting on anything once I realised bookies don't ride bicycles!


They don't ride on the 'dead certs' in the 3.30 at Goodwood either.


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## GUAPACHICA

Alcalaina said:


> Yep, the sand was being taken from Playa Valdevaqueros, Tarifa - one of the best blue-flag beaches on the Costa de la Luz!


Hi Alcalaina - great to know you're posting here, once more! I've 'liked' this post - not for the message about sand being removed from that perfect beach, but for the incredible photo!

Thanks for the link - I've missed that coastline so much, these last few months - but, I'll be back very shortly (just as all those holiday- makers start heading home, leaving the beaches and the continuation of the glorious weather to the locals and ourselves- the very fortunate foreign residents of Cadiz province..!).

Saludos
GC


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## Alcalaina

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi Alcalaina - great to know you're posting here, once more! I've 'liked' this post - not for the message about sand being removed from that perfect beach, but for the incredible photo!
> 
> Thanks for the link - I've missed that coastline so much, these last few months - but, I'll be back very shortly (just as all those holiday- makers start heading home, leaving the beaches and the continuation of the glorious weather to the locals and ourselves- the very fortunate foreign residents of Cadiz province..!).
> 
> Saludos
> GC


Hi GC, yes we are fortunate indeed in having some of the best coastline in Europe. I hardly ever go to the beach in summer, as I don't like crowds and we have a wonderful open-air swimming pool in our town, but from mid-September onwards it's hard to beat.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Hi GC, yes we are fortunate indeed in having some of the best coastline in Europe. I hardly ever go to the beach in summer, as I don't like crowds and we have a wonderful open-air swimming pool in our town, but from mid-September onwards it's hard to beat.


Looks lovely..But always blowing a gale....

Is it safe to swim?


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## Navas

mrypg9 said:


> Looks lovely..But always blowing a gale....
> 
> Is it safe to swim?


Isn't there a lot of surfing around there? My dad would have loved it


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## jimenato

Navas said:


> Isn't there a lot of surfing around there? My dad would have loved it


The big sport around Tarifa is Kitesurfing


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## Navas

jimenato said:


> The big sport around Tarifa is Kitesurfing


Knowing him, he would have given that a go too


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## Alcalaina

Navas said:


> Isn't there a lot of surfing around there? My dad would have loved it


Surfing, windsurfing, kitesurfing, and something on terra firma that I don't know the name of (sand sailing?). Also birdwatching, as it's just a quick hop to Morocco and millions of migrating birds pass over twice a year.

Yes it is windy sometimes, but not all of the time by any means. There are plenty of sheltered coves with safe bathing, for example around Conil and Sancti Petri.


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## mrypg9

That looks lovely! A Spanish friend invited us to stay in her family's house in Chiclana. What's that like?

Btw, I think the sand for the posh Gibraltsr beach came from Tarifa..


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## GUAPACHICA

jimenato said:


> The big sport around Tarifa is Kitesurfing


Hi - WOW - point made, LOL! Stunning vista! 


GC


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## GUAPACHICA

Alcalaina said:


> Surfing, windsurfing, kitesurfing, and something on terra firma that I don't know the name of (sand sailing?). Also birdwatching, as it's just a quick hop to Morocco and millions of migrating birds pass over twice a year.
> 
> Yes it is windy sometimes, but not all of the time by any means. There are plenty of sheltered coves with safe bathing, for example around Conil and Sancti Petri.


Hi - Yes, this whole coastline is glorious! It's a miracle that the shoreline hasn't yet been obliterated by concrete, high-rises and sprawling urbs…! 

As you'll probably know, the majority of Summer reservations for Cadiz city's beachside apartments are made by Spanish visitors, aiming to escape oppressively hot temperatures back home in Madrid and Seville! They usually remain for the entire school holidays, enjoying the endless, wide, clean beaches. Only Playa Caleta, in 'Casco Antiguo', suffers from Summer overcrowding; Puerta Tierra's beaches, in the 'new part' certainly attract sun worshippers to the water's edge, but there's always plenty of space to be found further back..! 

Re. comments from OPs on the windy nature of the Costa de la Luz - Tarifa, and other coastal communities at the Eastern end, are much windier, all year, than Cadiz city and its surrounds, in the West. We residents of the latter do experience both the Levante and Poniente winds - but we can also enjoy the luxury of light breezes alongside the sea, whenever the urban centre is oven-hot and seemingly devoid of all oxygen! 

Winter, of course, is another story - broken, discarded brollies stuffed into roadside refuse bins bear testament to the maddening winds which whip sharply around the city's streets, changing direction with impunity and flinging freezing rain horizontally at luckless pedestrians - foreigners and locals alike…! 

Thank goodness that the Costa de la Luz has such a long, sunny and hot Summer each year, with only a short, damp, chilly Winter, as penance! It's definitely a price worth paying, IMO. 

Saludos,
GC


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## mrypg9

I wanted to 'like' those photos but for some reason couldn't...


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## Navas

mrypg9 said:


> I wanted to 'like' those photos but for some reason couldn't...


I think Jimenato's fabulous, but rather large, photo has disturbed the page layout. It's happened on the Pictures of Spain thread too.


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## jimenato

Navas said:


> I think Jimenato's fabulous, but rather large, photo has disturbed the page layout. It's happened on the Pictures of Spain thread too.


Yes - my fault. Makes things a bit difficult doesn't it? Zooming out allows you to do things but makes it difficult to read. To zoom out/in press 'control' while operating your mouse wheel.

Maybe a mod can delete that picture?


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## baldilocks

I can't even get to the "Reply with quote" button and even this little window goes off the screen. Once we get a few more posts it will move onto another page and we'll be back to normal, that's if anyone can still remember what 'Normal' is.


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## Navas

baldilocks said:


> I can't even get to the "Reply with quote" button and even this little window goes off the screen. Once we get a few more posts it will move onto another page and we'll be back to normal, that's if anyone can still remember what 'Normal' is.


“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.” 

Douglas Adams


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## baldilocks

It seems to be a Douglas Adams sort of day, what with Navas and Thrax on another thread. Has anyone seen an Eddie Stobart artic about? Might account for these downpours.


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## Alcalaina

We need a tall thin picture to bump us onto the next page. This is the best I can do I'm afraid.

It's Cadiz city, where the buildings are made of a lovely white stone called oyster marble.












x
x
x
x
x

Bit cooler here today. 

Still sticky though.

Anyone watch the Supercopa last night? 

Very disappointing.

I think Atletico will win the Liga this season though.




Are we nearly there yet?






x
x
x
x


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## Alcalaina

Alcalaina said:


> We need a tall thin picture to bump us onto the next page. This is the best I can do I'm afraid.
> 
> It's Cadiz city, where the buildings are made of a lovely white stone called oyster marble.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> 
> Bit cooler here today.
> 
> Still sticky though.
> 
> Anyone watch the Supercopa last night?
> 
> Very disappointing.
> 
> I think Atletico will win the Liga this season though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we nearly there yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> x
> x
> x
> x



x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x
x

Voilá!


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## mrypg9

No, still no can 'like'!


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## Navas

mrypg9 said:


> No, still no can 'like'!


Are you on a small screen (iPad?). I have no problem here but I have 27" of screen in front of me 
In fact, come to think of it, when I use the Expat forum app on my iPhone, I haven't got a 'like' option anyway. I have to be on the computer to do that.


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## mrypg9

Navas said:


> Are you on a small screen (iPad?). I have no problem here but I have 27" of screen in front of me
> In fact, come to think of it, when I use the Expat forum app on my iPhone, I haven't got a 'like' option anyway. I have to be on the computer to do that.


On IPad and a mini laptop, what do they call them...notebooks?

Anyway, ****** Gibraltar, Mary's going to get Quorn from Iceland, thanks to good old Baldy


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## GUAPACHICA

Alcalaina said:


> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> x
> 
> Voilá!


Hi again - I'm thrilled at your posting that photo - a partial view of Cadiz's _'new' _Cathedral! 

I'm almost wholly nocturnal ('Spanish time' suits me very well, LOL), so it's common for me to be passing through Plaza Catedral in the early hours, after attending yet another late-finishing live gig. As a result, I've certainly enjoyed several '_cara a cara'_ moments, all alone with that iconic building - the pride of Cadiz!

Usually, on such occasions, I just stop and stand in the empty Plaza for a while, absorbing the unusual peace and _communing/I] with the Cathedral's vast, yet very familiar, facade. I'm always somewhat incredulous whenever I find myself to be, quite literally, the only human- being in that particular location - with none of the daytime tourist hoardes, their cameras or their incredibly noisy offspring..!

Well, that's one recommendation for a 'hairs standing up on the back of your neck' experience in the city of Cadiz - for 'owls' only! BTW, it works even for a 'dyed in the wool' old heathen like myself, LOL!

Saludos,
GC
.._


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## GUAPACHICA

*Update from 'El Pais'*

Hi - here's a link to a current article in *'El Pais'* In English, as seen on its website, dated 28/8/13. Directly below the report on the interview with Gibraltar's Chief Minister is one by another Spanish journalist, claiming that _The Rock_'s finances are starting to slide..!

I've also added a further link to yet another piece on the subject of Gib's economy, dated 26/8/13, also from 'El Pais.' 

"If Spain wants to take the dispute to court, that's music to our ears" | In English | EL PAÍS

What does Gibraltar live on? | In English | EL PAÍS

Saludos,
GC


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## Navas

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi again - I'm thrilled at your posting that photo - a partial view of Cadiz's _'new' _Cathedral!
> 
> I'm almost wholly nocturnal ('Spanish time' suits me very well, LOL), so it's common for me to be passing through Plaza Catedral in the early hours, after attending yet another late-finishing live gig. As a result, I've certainly enjoyed several '_cara a cara'_ moments, all alone with that iconic building - the pride of Cadiz!
> 
> Usually, on such occasions, I just stop and stand in the empty Plaza for a while, absorbing the unusual peace and _communing/I] with the Cathedral's vast, yet very familiar, facade. I'm always somewhat incredulous whenever I find myself to be, quite literally, the only human- being in that particular location - with none of the daytime tourist hoardes, their cameras or their incredibly noisy offspring..!
> 
> Well, that's one recommendation for a 'hairs standing up on the back of your neck' experience in the city of Cadiz - for 'owls' only! BTW, it works even for a 'dyed in the wool' old heathen like myself, LOL!
> 
> Saludos,
> GC
> .._


_

We were in Cadiz one lunchtime and, as we passed the cathedral, heard someone calling out OH's name. He turned to see a pair of former students sitting on the steps! They proceeded to greet him properly and explain that they too were passing through on holiday. It's such a small world!

The cathedral is very beautiful (we two atheists probably spend more time visiting churches and cathedrals to admire the architecture than Christians do to pray!), but I have memories of the stone being rather crumbling. Have I remembered that correctly?_


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## 90199

It is not only Gibraltar in dispute, but the waters around Salvaje islands, situated between the Canaries and Madeira , presently owned by Portugal.

Row between Portugal, Spain over Savage Islands < Spanish news | Expatica Spain


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