# Some help with costs please :-)



## Tonymax290161

Hi All.
I'm a newbee to the site so please go easy!
Me and my wife have a plan to retire to Italy in the next couple of years, so are beginning the process of trying to figure out a couple of things.
1) Where should we call home? We would like a decent sized house (minimum 3 bedrooms) requiring not too much renovation, with a fairly sizable garden where we could have a few chickens and grow some veg. Not too far from the sea would be perfect.
2) How much disposable income would we need to live fairly modestly and be able to cover basic living costs, with maybe the odd restaurant meal now and again?

For a bit of background my mother was Italian (sadly now passed away), and came to the UK in the late 50's. Having an English father has meant that Italian wasn't spoken much at home. Fortunately I have managed to pick up a reasonable grasp of the language, and could get by providing the conversation doesn't get too technical.
My English wife lived in Italy for 6 years and is in love with the country. She is fluent and has a degree in languages and is a qualified primary school teacher. She is hoping to pick up some work translating/interpreting or teaching Italian to Ex pats or English to Italian children. Would anyone know where a good place would be to pick up this type of work, but ideally not in a city or big town?
Sorry for all the questions; any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Tony.


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## NickZ

Basically the sort of home you'll want can be found almost any where. Touristy areas or areas popular with expats tend to be more expensive. 

Think in terms of your interests,needs and wants. Weather? Further north or higher in altitude will be colder. Further south cheaper. None of this matters if you're goal is to visit Rome (fill in a city,site or whatever) easily. You'll need to check travel times and transit methods. If you're planning to fly back to the UK or have guest then make sure getting to the airport isn't a pain. If you've got a rural home it might be. 

You don't mention budget. Budget might limit you to certain lesser expensive areas or if higher give you more freedom.

The second bit is a classic piece of string. "fairly modestly" My guess the average person believes they live modestly. That includes the people barely above poverty and those with million euro incomes. 

What you need to do is make a budget up. Include everything. Food,utilities, etc.

Things to think about. The sort of home you're thinking about will have higher costs and other problems. A rural house will require a car. Insurance,fuel and maintenance every year. It might be in an broadband dark area. If access to the internet matters you'll need to check this first. It might rely on expensive propane. Or not have sewer access . You'd need to budget for septic tanks . Even food. You'll need to drive to the larger hypermarkets . There might be only one nearby. If you don't want to drive the small local stores can be expensive. You'd still likely need to drive. 

You're also grown up  Hate to mention this but the older we get the more access to medical care matters. A rural home won't be in walking distance to the pharmacy. Or worse the hospital. Think about that. I assume you both drive but imagine if only one of you drives and that person has a problem.

Rural homes are romantic and can be wonderful during the summer. But if a freak snowstorm or mudslide blocks the only road it'll stop being appealing. Just ask yourself why are so many of these houses for sale? Or just sitting empty. 

If the idea is to work as a hobby fine. But if you'll need the income understand it'll be hard. Unemployment is high. Expats tend to be in more expensive areas. What you earn will be offset by the higher home prices. Families that can afford English language tutors are also more likely in the cities then some rural towns. Obviously cities are larger but incomes are also higher.


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## GeordieBorn

Superb reply from Nick! Only one I did not spot was income tax, this is high in Italy, last I looked was 23% start AND without the big UK 11,000+ allowance!


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## Tonymax290161

Thanks Geordieborn for your reply... the areas we are considering are Liguria (ease of travelling to and from UK in car) or Abruzzo... we just love this region. We want to be no more than 20 mins to the sea. We are hoping to spend around 150000 euros on a house and we want rural (ish) because we want to have chickens and cats and dogs etc. We will be keeping our house in the UK and renting it out. We expect to have around 800 euros per month income from the UK, we would have savings but would prefer to keep them in the bank! How much more do you think we would need to survive? I will be 55 in two years and my wife 50 so hoping we won't need much medical support just yet! I am an Italian national with Italian passport and codice fiscale and my wife will be also by the time we get there... do you think this will aid the purchasing side of things? 
Thanks again for your advice - all advice is welcome!!!


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## Tonymax290161

Thank you NickZ for your super advice! (I though Geordieborn had written it!)


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## Tonymax290161

GeordieBorn said:


> Superb reply from Nick! Only one I did not spot was income tax, this is high in Italy, last I looked was 23% start AND without the big UK 11,000+ allowance!


Wow that is hefty! Is there any tax allowance?
What about council tax... is there an equivalent? I'm imagining that there is usual costs like water, gas, electricity, insurance, phone, broadband, tv channels and car costs... is there anything else that we don't have in the uk?


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## GeordieBorn

I would not want you to think it is mad idea or not the dream move it seems to be. It’s more I would not want to see you or anyone lose a lot of money if it did not work out. In fact I wish we had done the very same at your age or even earlier. 
I would add to this, but you need to look at the full tax rates first….
Tax (%) Tax Base (EUR)
23% 0 - 15,000
27% 15,001-28,000
38% 28,001-55,00
41% 55,001-75,000
43% 75,001 and over

There is no allowance amount and it's likely you will be liable for tax on any UK rent.


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## Tonymax290161

Thank you GeordieBorn for the information on tax. I must admit I didn't realize the personal taxation rate was so steep!
My aim is not to work in Italy but live off rental income from the property in the Uk (approximately £200 per month once the mortgage repayments have been taken out), my private pension which I can draw at 55 (although I won't get any where near the 'full term' rate), and hopefully some earnings from my wife as described above. I'm hoping to occupy myself with renovation work, home improvements and developing the land. The hope is that we have as few bureaucratic dealings as possible, as I'm aware bureaucracy in Italy can be a nightmare, and eventually be as self-sufficient as possible (without going to extremes like knitting my own clothes). I'm a qualified electrician and decent DIYer so hope to install solar panels, irrigation system, rain water collection etc.
Does anyone live this kind of life, and have any more idea of living costs? I want to make sure we have enough 'back up' in the bank to cover any lean spots, and hopefully enjoy a quieter life without the stress of life in the UK. 
Thanks for reading, and all advice is appreciated as always.


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## GeordieBorn

Ha! Well the tax has still not put you of then? We were looking at almost the very same and ended up doing very little of it. Then again we did not have your skills. From what I've read of your posts you still need to ask many more questions. A good start here, but a long way to go. Like Nick said, it depends on your life style, but indications are yours is the type that does not need too much. We (well I) budgeted to the nth degree and was well out, but that’s because we actually live cheaper here than we expected. Still, there are many things here very different, so don’t take anything for granted, and I mean anything. You know about the tax now (I hope you clocked about the rent), you may wish to think about car insurance (expensive here) and have a look at the process of buying one, gas, unless it’s town gas is expensive, there are areas here that have serious water shortages at times . Okay just examples and the car buying is not something you do too often, but it is a flavour and there are lots more. Just a last word for now, when we were looking to buy someone told us most buying only last 5-7 years and go back. Sorry to say this, but from the people we have got to know over the years we have been here, that seems to be near the mark, hence my earlier warning(s).


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## NickZ

Tonymax290161 said:


> Wow that is hefty! Is there any tax allowance?
> What about council tax... is there an equivalent? I'm imagining that there is usual costs like water, gas, electricity, insurance, phone, broadband, tv channels and car costs... is there anything else that we don't have in the uk?



There is a tax allowance. It's called the "no tax area". From memory it starts at about 6K. At 75 I think it climbs to 8K. Per person so double for couple. That's the easy bit. The hard bit is there is a complex formula that lowers this area based on your income. IIRC once your income hits about 30K a year you'll have lost the whole 6K. 

There is a garbage tax. It's based on number of residents and house size. It'll also vary based on the town. Figure a couple hundred € per year.

My point about health care wasn't about today but in twenty years if you're still here you might not want to be in the country.

With a budget of €150k if you avoid Chiantishire you might be able to buy two homes. Certainly shouldn't have any trouble finding a place to buy. BUT that should send you a couple of messages. Why are there so many for sale? Why do they take so long to sell? Don't buy with the idea of reselling. Buy with the intention to keep forever.

800 a month if the house is paid for and you have savings to deal with unplanned emergencies should easily handle a modest lifestyle. No taking the Aston to the casino but you could manage.

Being Italian won't hurt but it won't help you buy. It will make it easier to get residence and your health card but that's about it.

What will you do with the animals when you drive back to the UK?


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## NickZ

BTW the tax rate depends on income type. The chart above is for "normal"/ employment income. If you're retired you need to see how your income is taxed. For example investment income is a fixed 26%


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## KenzoXIV

Hi,

Bouncing into the conversation a little late but here I am. Taxation is high over here unfortunately. Based on the kind of person you are and your wife I must ask have you ever considered Sicily?

My reasoning:
There is a lot .... A LOT!! of renovation work here and DIYers are in high demand, Sicily's 'Black Economy' is also much easier to navigate than the rest of Italy.. not that I would ever dream of advising anyone to avoid taxes... never... no one does that here... ever... honest...

The youth of Sicily are also desperate for English tutelage... You won't make a fortune with this however in terms of you learning Italian, socialising and all the rest of it teaching English can be very useful down here.

Sicily is not as 'fancy' as our northern compatriots however the natural beauty here is beyond compare, also rural(ish) houses here are in abundance and cost a lot less than up north.

Weather isnt too bad here either 

You do not need a massive income to live in Sicily either, and the more friends you make and favours you can do, the more favours will come in return. For example, I spend 30 mins showing my father in law how to use his new phone, I won't have to buy vegetables or olive oil for 6 months (He has a small farm). Thats how everything works down here, a DIYer could have a very good life here...

Just a thought!

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Thanks GeordieBorn and NickZ for your useful words of wisdom.
A bit more background. I spent many summers growing up in a small village outside Naples (San Gennaro Vesuviano) so am fairly well versed in the old ways. I remember being sent down the lane to the old woman on the corner to buy some home made vino rosso, and watching in horror as she sucked on the end of a bit of old pipe to siphon out the wine, then rammed it in my damigiana! Her toothless smile she gave me as I handed over a couple of milelira will stay with me for ever.
I remember jumping on my cousin's scooter and getting lost. Eventually finding my way back and no one but my petrified mother giving a damn that I had been missing for hours. In that neck of the woods getting lost on a scooter is a passage into manhood!
In my teens I would go to the local Tabaccaio, which was actually someone's front room! I love the diversity of the people and hope that some of this still remains.
Anyway back to now. It's good to know that 800 Euro's a month should provide a basic standard of living; at least I have an idea of what I need to make available as a minimum each month.


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## Tonymax290161

Hi Kenzo. Your bouncing into the conversation is most welcome.
Well you've gone and done it now. My wife is on Right Move looking for houses in Sicily! I must admit we hadn't considered this neck of the woods until now, and you have made it sound very appealing. 
I think Sicily gets a pretty bad press over here as it seems the only time this part of Italy is mentioned in the news is when the immigrant crisis is discussed. Can you tell me have you had any experience of this, or know what the impact of boatloads of people hitting the shores actually has on the island, if any? Also its association with The Mafia is off-putting, but maybe I've watched The Godfather too many times!


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## KenzoXIV

Tonymax290161 said:


> Hi Kenzo. Your bouncing into the conversation is most welcome.
> Well you've gone and done it now. My wife is on Right Move looking for houses in Sicily! I must admit we hadn't considered this neck of the woods until now, and you have made it sound very appealing.
> I think Sicily gets a pretty bad press over here as it seems the only time this part of Italy is mentioned in the news is when the immigrant crisis is discussed. Can you tell me have you had any experience of this, or know what the impact of boatloads of people hitting the shores actually has on the island, if any? Also its association with The Mafia is off-putting, but maybe I've watched The Godfather too many times!


Hehe, it is definitely worth a look even if you decide it is not for you. I would recommend looking at Palermo/Catania as the big cities, Cefalu or Siracusa as the seaside towns. Mountain towns are more or less the same you just need to decide how far up the various mountains you want to go.

Let me knock out most of that bad press for you.

Mafia: This is an Italian issue, not just Sicily and not just the south. The mafia down here among the general population is not a topic for discussion due to the nature of past events, however in normal every day life it will not affect you. The best advice I can give is do not become curious about it, do not ask about it, and it will never affect you. Certainly in my 5 years here living in and around Palermo I can never claim to have witnessed a 'Mafia Event', but I am not looking for them either. Every country has crime syndicates, Italys is just the most notorious thanks to Hollywood.

Immigrant crisis: I may touch a few political nerves here but this is my experience. Have you ever gone anywhere, got through the main entrance and just stopped? Decided you like the entrance and no need to go any further? No... I didn't think so. Neither do the immigrants. The truth is the immigrants do not leave Africa with the dream of getting to Sicily. The dream is to move on as quietly as possible as far north as possible with the main aim being the economically wealthy countries such as Germany, UK and Sweden. The actual impact on the island is low. They will be seen in the street walking around but that is all. They cause no trouble and are not trying to draw attention to themselves. They have 0 affect on everyday life however unlike the Mafia they are a huge topic of conversation in Sicily. This is because of what is perceived as the extraordinary handouts being given to them in front of a population who consider themselves on the most part 'poor'.

The reality is that Sicily's issues are no worse than any other countries but have been romanticised more in the movies and media. Its actually a pretty normal place on the most part..:wacko:

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Thanks Kenzo. We have decided to take a look at Abruzzo, Liguria and now Sicily! You do seem to get a fair bit of house for your money down south, and it looks like finding one with a decent garden won't be a problem too.
I would imagine air con s a must during the summer, what about heating? will a log burner do you think? Do you know if internet is available in medium sized villages, or is it strictly a city thing? Internet will be important for my work interests in the UK, and of course the TV! 
Is gas bottles the norm for villages or has towns gas arrived?
Sorry for all the questions, but you've got us thinking and I know very little about your neck of the woods.


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## KenzoXIV

Tonymax290161 said:


> Thanks Kenzo. We have decided to take a look at Abruzzo, Liguria and now Sicily! You do seem to get a fair bit of house for your money down south, and it looks like finding one with a decent garden won't be a problem too.
> I would imagine air con s a must during the summer, what about heating? will a log burner do you think? Do you know if internet is available in medium sized villages, or is it strictly a city thing? Internet will be important for my work interests in the UK, and of course the TV!
> Is gas bottles the norm for villages or has towns gas arrived?
> Sorry for all the questions, but you've got us thinking and I know very little about your neck of the woods.


No problem at all its what we are here for.

Yes property is cheaper south without a doubt. Gardens will not be a problem either, infact most villas will have much more land than a 'garden' you could start a small farm very easily down here.

Air con is a must in summer without a doubt, temperatures can get in and around low 30's. Similarly in winter as the houses are built to be cold the winters can feel very cold indeed. Heating wise it is a hot topic (No pun intended), we use electric heaters, this is due to the fact we have a very young child and we are being overly concerned with safety. The 'norm' would be either a log burner or gas bottle heater. More modern houses will now have central heating however. Most locals would go with the log burner however.

Again gas bottles are the 'norm' but bare in mind that Sicily has an older, poorer mentality than the rest of Italy, mains gas is available in places, you will need to do your research however. We use gas bottles for the hob and it doesn't really affect us too much. Modern builds should have mains connections in the majority of case, most places now have access to mains however this option is not always taken.

Internet is a very important commodity for me as well. I live in a village just outside Palermo, literally 8k people. We have fibre internet 100mbps down and 20mbps up. Palermo will have fibre optic which is 300mbps down and 100mbps up if I remember correctly. Sicily is currently going through a major broadband upgrade right now and soon everywhere will be fibre optic however. To give you an idea we used to live right up in the Madonie in a small village, it had 10mbps down and 1mbps up, it now has 200mbps down and 20mbps up so it is improving all the time.

Never apologise for asking questions, that is why these things exist so you don't fall down the same holes we may have done! Its our pleasure to advise just always pay it forward if you feel you can help someone in future. 

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Thanks Kenzo for the sound advice and positive words. 
We are contemplating taking a huge step, and I know that the house we buy may be difficult to re-sell if we get it wrong and decide to return to the UK, so no doubt there will be many more questions to come. 
What's the rental market like in Sicily? Renting for say 12 months is another possibility as I'm sure you never really know an area until you've lived there for a while.


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## KenzoXIV

Tonymax290161 said:


> Thanks Kenzo for the sound advice and positive words.
> We are contemplating taking a huge step, and I know that the house we buy may be difficult to re-sell if we get it wrong and decide to return to the UK, so no doubt there will be many more questions to come.
> What's the rental market like in Sicily? Renting for say 12 months is another possibility as I'm sure you never really know an area until you've lived there for a while.


The good news is Sicily is a buyers market right now. Lots of properties up for sale most of which have been up for years. Sicilians just do not have the means to purchase property any more in the major part. A house will be difficult to re-sell whether you made the 'right' choice or not. I wouldn't purchase with the mentality of a 'bug out' plan. If this is your dream, grab it with both hands and buy the house you want.

I would strongly recommend renting first. You need to be sure you will be happy in an area, but more importantly than that you will find it hard enough just getting your identity cards, codice fiscale and all of the other things that come with it sorted, you won't want to be negotiating a house purchase in the middle of all that. There will be plenty of places to rent both on and off the books but I strongly recommend getting a good contract and even going through an agency, at least for the first year, just while you are getting sorted.

Renting for 12 months is a good idea, gives you all four seasons to decide if the area is what you want in the heat, the cold and the wet! 

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Thanks Kenzo. One good thing is that I have dual nationality and already have my codice fiscale, so one less thing to worry about.
We have booked to visit Liguria in April and plan to visit Abruzzo and Sicily in the Summer/Autumn, so hopefully by the end of the year we will have a good idea where we want to be when I finally retire in 2020!
Thanks again.

Tony


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## NickZ

Don't visit during the summer or tourist season. Visit during the depths of winter. Jan/Feb would be best. 

Think of the UK. If you visit a beach town during the summer it will seem much different then mid winter. Rural living mid winter is much more complicated .

Think about what you want to do. If you have the idea of flying back and forth every so often how far is the airport? How busy is it? If you really want to drive then think about the costs to drive. Tolls,fuel etc. For the islands ferry costs.

Mains gas is important for heating but less so for other uses. A large canister can last a long time if you only use it for cooking. For hotwater you could go electric. Or better a combo electric/solar. Most of the year the solar would handling the hotwater.

Heating can be handled in many many ways. Gas,wood,pellets and the list continues. But if you're renovating spend the time and money on insulating and updating windows. That will help both winter and summer. If you redo the floor think about infloor heating instead of wall rads. Even more so if you combine the system with a solar tank. 

Wood can mean anything from an open fire . Horrible efficiency . A modern stove. A stove with air ducts. A stove with a back boiler hooked up to your rads. The benefit of wood is most of these systems don't use electricity. Small rural towns often have power outages during winter storms. A heat source that works without power has benefits .

Pellets are more expensive then wood. Both to buy and to install. But they're less hassle. They can even be setup with a remote control. Try that with a wood fire -)

Mains gas is in between usually. The big advantage over pellets is that during an unusual cold winter you won't run out of gas. People have been known to run out of pellets mid winter. Either make sure you have a large stock to handle the worst possible weather or have a back up system.

A/C depends on how your home is built. My ground floor mid summer can require warm clothing. It takes an extreme heat wave to get it much over 20 degrees. Next floor is temperate almost the whole year long. The top floor freezes during the winter and bakes during the summer.


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## GeordieBorn

Some great advice for you from Kenzo and Nick. We use wood (wood burner) for back up and periods inbetween seasons. Have small gas bottles for cooking, use around 2 per year (15kg btls circa €30 each) and have a duel valve with 2 attached all the time, so never run out. Main heating is olive waste (sansa), dirty, but superb and cheaper than wood in you hve to buy it. Would never have a/c as we both don't like it, but in any case the house is built for both seasons regards sun, shame they did not also think insulation... We never go to the fruit and veg shop between around June to October and really get very little outside of that period. The HA of land we have is more than enough to cope with and likely a little too much unless you maintain your own wood supply, which case you would need nearer 2 HA.


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## Italia-Mx

I must disagree with Kenzo on the issue of migrants who came uninvited to Italy. I live in Abruzzo and YES they most definitely DO affect me when I am harassed on every block by an African asking me for a hand-out or to buy one of his useless trinkets that he tries to push into my hands. Worse yet is that they will follow you down the street begging. One was even bold enough to follow us into a shop after we refused to give him anything on the street. If I gave money every day to all the African beggars in Italy, I would use up my entire monthly pension. Plus being so harassed in public on a daily basis affects my quality of life and peace of mind.


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## Italia-Mx

Kenzo living down there in Sicily doesn't know whats going on in Italy with migrants when he says they're on their way to the UK, Germany and Sweden. Apparently he hasn't heard that the Brenner Pass in Austria is closed to illegal migrants from Italy -- so they can't get out of Italy that way. Also, they can't get to the UK because the UK has left the EU and the Jungle in Calais, France has been dismantled with Macron saying just yesterday that another Jungle will not be tolerated, asylum cases must be settled within six months and all others not entitled to protection will be sent back to Africa. So how does he think they're going to get to the UK, Germany and Sweden if they can't even get out of Italy?


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## KenzoXIV

Italia-Mx said:


> Kenzo living down there in Sicily doesn't know whats going on in Italy with migrants when he says they're on their way to the UK, Germany and Sweden. Apparently he hasn't heard that the Brenner Pass in Austria is closed to illegal migrants from Italy -- so they can't get out of Italy that way. Also, they can't get to the UK because the UK has left the EU and the Jungle in Calais, France has been dismantled with Macron saying just yesterday that another Jungle will not be tolerated, asylum cases must be settled within six months and all others not entitled to protection will be sent back to Africa. So how does he think they're going to get to the UK, Germany and Sweden if they can't even get out of Italy?


I can only give my opinion on my experience but certainly the African beggers are no more annoying to me than the Italian ones. Begging is the issue not the race of people doing it. I have had a Sicilian begger approach me as I was putting my child in the car demanding money from me because and I quote 'If I have money to spend buying my daughter nice toys, I must have 5 euros to give him for food' after I gave him some 'words of advice' he doesnt seem to bother me anymore.

Another Italian begger came up to me offering lighters, tissues and biro's. When I said no he proceeded to beg my wife for money as she was obviously the softer touch..Wrong!

This is not to say the African beggers are not any worse but on the most part I have personally not had many issues. The question was how does it affect Sicily, not anywhere else. I do think I am best placed to answer in this case.

I have lived on both ends of the trail of migrants (And very briefly in the middle too), just because a pass is closed does not mean they are not trying to cross. Truck loads of illegal immigrants are caught in Dover almost daily. Do you think they care that Mr Macron, Mrs May or anyone else has said 'No one is home, you can't come in'. The thing that makes them illegal is the fact that they are not following the systems in place.

The UK has not yet left the EU we have simply handed in our notice. Will be March 2019 before we leave and even then there is a transition period almost certainly. Leaving is not something I agree with and it won't solve many of the issues that I believe the UK were duped into believing it would. I do hope that Europe and the UK can figure this out in the interests of everybody.

The Calais Jungle is a French problem when all is said and done, why should the UK open up its borders just because it is an inconvenience to France. We did not invite the migrants to Calais or the UK it is not our fault they wish to come. If the migrants wern't trying to get to the UK why are they in Calais? The view? This makes my point all the more valid about migrants trying to push north. There is no Messina jungle, Pescara jungle or Milan jungle. The euro tunnel is on a daily basis emptied of migrants who attempt to walk to the UK through it, many are pulled out in body bags unfortunately. Trucks on the ferries have the same problem with migrants hidden in the back of them.

You must surely understand that the african immigrants in Italy on the most part are the ones who have just arrived, left behind or do not have the means to progress to more prosperous climes. If immigrants are getting in, then sure enough they are getting out too!

Kenzo


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## Italia-Mx

Are you sure the "Italian" beggars are not Romanians or other Eastern Europeans? I don't see ANY Italian beggars in my city -- but then again, I'm Italian and I know who is Italian and who is not. Furthermore, Italians don't have to beg because no matter how poor they are, they have family that will support them AND in case you haven't noticed, Italians are too proud to beg. Furthermore Italians love children and telling you that you should give them money because you buy toys for your kids, doesn't sound like anything an Italian would say. I think I know my own people better than you do.


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## KenzoXIV

Italia-Mx said:


> Are you sure the "Italian" beggars are not Romanians or other Eastern Europeans? I don't see ANY Italian beggars in my city -- but then again, I'm Italian and I know who is Italian and who is not. Furthermore, Italians don't have to beg because no matter how poor they are, they have family that will support them AND in case you haven't noticed, Italians are too proud to beg. Furthermore Italians love children and telling you that you should give them money because you buy toys for your kids, doesn't sound like anything an Italian would say. I think I know my own people better than you do.


Wow..... just wow...

I really am not trying to get into a war of words here but seriously have you been to 'SICILY' (Since we enjoy the use of capital letters)? Passing the problem off as 'It is only eastern europeans or Romanians' is delusion of the highest order. I am not Italian.. granted.. but my wife is... born and bred in Sicily to a Sicilian family who have not left the island for any period of time. Is she wrong too? Not to mention that part of my 'Words of advice' were do you not have a family to go to, where are you from? and his response was no and I am from Palermo in a thick Palermitano dialect (Verified by my wife).

Yes Italians love their family, and certainly do love children.. but some people 'IN SICILY' are in a desperate situation and do not have family to turn too. This is in no way a negative spin on 'ITALIANS(SICILIANS)' this is a description of 'BEGGERS'. On the most part Italians are too proud to beg, I agree, but that doesnt mean there are 0 Italian beggers. I would like to invite you to Palermo if you have time and I will show you them myself! You won't have to go to far from the airport I promise!

You are in a part of Italy which in the most part flourishes. I am in a part which doesn't. Again this is not a negative spin on Sicily this is just how it is. The further south in Italy you go the more problems there are economically. This brings with it the need for people to beg, (or wash your windscreen, sell a rose, lighters, biros or point to an obvious car parking space) it is all begging when said and done.

Italia-Mx, you are proud of 'your' people. I understand, but to give people a false impression of your country (As a whole and not just your part), especially in an area which you are not living your day to day life is wrong. Maybe there are 0 Italian beggers in Abruzzo and this (if true) is a wonderful thing and I am sure the rest of the world would like to know how Abruzzo has done this, but Abruzzo was not the region where the question was asked.

However for the sake of clarity I will revise my previous answer.

How does the migrant crisis affect SICILY?
Through MY OWN experience on a day to day basis it does not affect ME or the SICILIANS within my family and social circle. This is not to say it doesn't affect other Italians who are not used to seeing these people begging on the street. MY EXPERIENCE is that the foreign beggers and Italian beggers are AS invasive as each other and you will need to develop a thick skin to brush them off equally. The vast MAJORITY of migrants that I HAVE ENCOUNTERED however have not approached ME and simply walk past. The ones who have approached ME are invasive but no more so than any other begger of any nationality. 

I hope that answer is a better clarification of MY EXPERIENCE in SICILY.

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Looks like the immigrant question is as controversial and divisive in Italy as it is in the UK! It may be a question of interpretation, as the sight of a couple of street beggars may affect one person (and even spoil their day) yet someone else may not even notice them.
I work in Manchester and there are beggars on the streets, but they don't approach people. They usually sit in corners and at most shake a cup at you in the hope of receiving a couple of coins. This despite there being a reasonable network of provision for the homeless, so I can imagine the plight of beggars in countries where this level of private or state support does not exist would be even worse (causing begging to be a bit more 'in your face') irrespective of legal status. Thanks both anyway, it's good to hear different views on such a topic.


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## NickZ

They don't bother me but I'm a big city kid. OTOH I've seen tourists,little old ladies and similar harassed. That's the average ones. Like any group you've then got less then sane members with all that implies.

BUT you've asked about rural properties. Rural properties have always had some risk. In the old days you likely had neighbours. These days your neighbors if you have them are elderly. More likely the nearby homes will be empty most of the year


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## Italia-Mx

In restaurants, they have actually pulled up a chair for themselves at our table while we were eating. You know -- they just joined us whether we liked it or not and then proceeded to harass us for money. It's happened more than once and should not be allowed. An Italian who lived in the UK told me they don't do this in the UK because the shop owners don't allow it. Another time I was really annoyed because we just sat down for dinner and one of those harassers approached the table and I told him to go away. He left but turned around to glare at me several times before he actually left the restaurant. Most of these harassers are muslims and they think a woman has no right to tell them to go away. I'm sick of them bothering me.


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## Tonymax290161

To stray from the immigration topic for a moment, we've decided to go to Sicily instead of Liguria, as we think it might be a bit chilly up north in the winter. We are going to focus on villa's fairly near to the sea with a bit of a garden. The theory being that we could explore the rental market during the summer months and live in it for 9 or 10 months of the year. Might end up going to Tenerife for the summer like many other Italians!


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## NickZ

Don't think north south. Think up/down. Elevation matters much more then north or south.

Potenza the capital of Basilicata is one of the most southerly regional capitals. It's also the coldest


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## KenzoXIV

Italia-Mx said:


> In restaurants, they have actually pulled up a chair for themselves at our table while we were eating. You know -- they just joined us whether we liked it or not and then proceeded to harass us for money. It's happened more than once and should not be allowed. An Italian who lived in the UK told me they don't do this in the UK because the shop owners don't allow it. Another time I was really annoyed because we just sat down for dinner and one of those harassers approached the table and I told him to go away. He left but turned around to glare at me several times before he actually left the restaurant. Most of these harassers are muslims and they think a woman has no right to tell them to go away. I'm sick of them bothering me.


Now this is a much fairer post. With regards to the UK you are right the shop owners do not stand for it and beggars are swiftly told to move on. It has always amazed me why this is not the case in Italy. I have had beggars approach me too in restaurants and I have looked at the owner and they literally turn a blind eye to it. If it was my restaurant or shop the word would very quickly spread amongst the beggars not to come in.

You are also right to say that a lot of these people come from countries where women's rights are oppressed so it will be as much of a culture shock for them that you have stood up for yourself as it is for you how aggressive they are. Unfortunately in the multicultural society that Europe is trying to create this type of conflict will become even more abundant. We did multicultural in the UK and for the most part it works, unfortunately with the good comes the bad and I would be remiss not to admit that the UK feels very swarmed by immigrants, this is one reason for brexit... but like I said, I don't think brexit will help in this case.

The sad reality is that for whatever reason they are here, they are, and until something drastic happens they are going to be staying or flowing through. I think it is for Italians (and in general europeans) to be saying we will not accept the begging in our shops and restaurants and be kicking them out, and for the heads of states to be coming up with a solution to the whole migrant problem. 

Kenzo


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## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Don't think north south. Think up/down. Elevation matters much more then north or south.
> 
> Potenza the capital of Basilicata is one of the most southerly regional capitals. It's also the coldest


Yes this is very true, there are some high mountains in Sicily, and the temperatures plummet the higher up you are. Down on the North cost in Sicily we did not go below 10 degrees this year and it is now starting to warm up averaging 20 in midday. 

Up in the mountains where my wife is from it went below freezing with snow, only for a couple of days, but it was there.

Kenzo


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## KenzoXIV

Tonymax290161 said:


> To stray from the immigration topic for a moment, we've decided to go to Sicily instead of Liguria, as we think it might be a bit chilly up north in the winter. We are going to focus on villa's fairly near to the sea with a bit of a garden. The theory being that we could explore the rental market during the summer months and live in it for 9 or 10 months of the year. Might end up going to Tenerife for the summer like many other Italians!


Another thing you need to be aware of is 'Summer Tax'. Thats what I call the fact that when you buy in summer, in your head you will be willing to pay more because it looks so much nicer. Sicilians in particular shut up shop in the winter and leave their villas empty. This is what Nick was saying about not having any neighbours. I haven't seen my neighbours since October! This leaves 6/7 months of lack of maintenance. If you buy in this period now you will be saving a little bit of money because you will be able to save someone maintenance work. It is much easier (in Sicily) to negotiate better prices in winter than summer.

We are only renting at the moment, but when I talk to the landlord about buying he is not keen at all in the summer to sell but when winter comes along the conversation seems to have new life.

I would also recommend what Nick said about visiting in winter. You already know what it will be like in Summer, Hot, Touristy, Sun, Sea, Sand etc. It is the winter when you learn about a country 100%. For every day you spend here in the summer, spend 3 during winter to understand how it is.

If you do come to Sicily let me know and I will be more than happy to have a coffee and show you the ropes down here!

Kenzo


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## Tonymax290161

Hi Kenzo. Well we have decided to change the flights to Genoa and we are now going to Catania!
We quite like the look of Syracuse, so plan to hire a car and take a trip down and hopefully check out some properties. We'll be going in April so might even get some nice weather too!
We don't plan to move out until 2019,so this is just the first trip. If we like what we see we will be back in the winter.
Very exciting!!


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## KenzoXIV

Tonymax290161 said:


> Hi Kenzo. Well we have decided to change the flights to Genoa and we are now going to Catania!
> We quite like the look of Syracuse, so plan to hire a car and take a trip down and hopefully check out some properties. We'll be going in April so might even get some nice weather too!
> We don't plan to move out until 2019,so this is just the first trip. If we like what we see we will be back in the winter.
> Very exciting!!


Hehe April fools never applies anywhere more poignantly than Sicily. One day you will be on the beach tanning yourself begging for gelato, the next day you will be indoors wondering where the rain came from!

Syracuse is lovely although from what I know a little more touristy. I imagine it will be very welcoming and you are coming at a good time because it is just before the season so it won't be busy, but places will be open 'Preparing'.

If you are hiring a car - some quick beginner tips. When someone flashes their lights, they are NOT making way. They are telling you that they are coming through. Also do not try and keep up. If some one goes around you in a horrible way just let them get on with it. They will have done it a million times even if it seems like suicidal driving to the uninitiated

Also explore as much as you can, Sicily is quite diverse (As is Italy as a whole) region to region. I would recommend sticking to Catania and Palermo provinces on the first visit rather than Agrigento (It is beautiful but very easy to get lost around the back streets, mountain roads and SatNav is not always your friend!) Stick close to the motorways I would say.

Places I would recommend visiting to get an idea of the diversity would be:

Coastal towns: Syracuse, Taormina (You will not do well trying to access by car), Cefalù (This is a must!) and Milazzo. 

Mountain towns: Castelbuono, Geraci, Pollina (if your not afraid of heights) and Caccamo. (All province of Palermo, not really ventured much in the mountains Catania side.

Big towns: In all honesty the bigger the town/city the less the magic but Palermo, Catania and Agrigento have their beauty about them too, Agrigento in particular has the Valley of the Temples. Bagheria would also be worth a look.

I think you will have a great time and maybe I would go as far as to say don't look at properties the first trip, just spend time absorbing the Island in. Maybe look at 2 or 3 of your favourite properties to get an idea but initially I would say just 'buy your city' first before looking at properties.

Kenzo


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## BraveHorse

You may also consider how often you'll want to travel. Sicily is a bit remote. I've chosen to be one hour from Malpensa, that's the airport in Milano. It's a large airport, where you can fly anywhere. Milano and anything close to Lago Maggiore is very expensive, but you can find affordable rural houses further South, around Mortara and Vercelli.

I agree winters will be cold.


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## KenzoXIV

BraveHorse said:


> You may also consider how often you'll want to travel. Sicily is a bit remote. I've chosen to be one hour from Malpensa, that's the airport in Milano. It's a large airport, where you can fly anywhere. Milano and anything close to Lago Maggiore is very expensive, but you can find affordable rural houses further South, around Mortara and Vercelli.
> 
> I agree winters will be cold.


Its a good point. If you wish to jet set around the world, doing so from Sicily is challenging however both Palermo and Catania airports serve the UK just fine using Ryanair or Easyjet. My parents keep wanting me to go to Menorca or Gran Canaria which is possible but not without going to Rome or Barcelona first... Small sacrifice for the rare occasions it would happen though.

Kenzo


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## Mawdi42

Great to hear about your plans....they sound very exciting and similar to ours! We hope to do the same as you guys but just a little quicker (by next Feb) and want animals and land to grow fruits and vegetables. It would be great to keep in touch and share any learnings we both have. We don’t have the advantage of the Italian heritage you do, nor are we fluent in Italian, but we’re thinking along the same sort of lines with both house purchase costs, and living expenses. I hope between us we ask some great questions on the forum, as the other members seem to be really friendly and helpful with replying.
Good luck, Steve & Amanda


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## Alinaga

*useful link for cost questions*

Hello,
I think NUMBEO.COM can help you to have an idea about prices in Italy (and other countries). 

I myself find it useful and also quite precise.
Regards.


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## Tonymax290161

Hi Steve and Amanda.
Sorry for the late reply; haven't been on the forum for a while.
That sounds great! Maybe you could let us know how you get on in your new adventure and give us some pointers when you have settled in.
Let me know if you have any issues with the lingo (admin and red tape can be an issue) and I'll hopefully be able to help.
All the best.
Tony.


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## amit+2018

*Monthly expenses*

Hi,

This is my first time here, so pardon me if I am asking a question already discussed.

I am planning to move with my family to Padua and would like to understand what is the cost of living in Padua? My family consists of 4 adults and 2 kids.

Kindly also mention what would be the rent for 3 bedroom house outside city center.

Thanks
Amit


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## GeordieBorn

amit+2018 said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is my first time here, so pardon me if I am asking a question already discussed.
> 
> I am planning to move with my family to Padua and would like to understand what is the cost of living in Padua? My family consists of 4 adults and 2 kids.
> 
> Kindly also mention what would be the rent for 3 bedroom house outside city center.
> 
> Thanks
> Amit


Hi Amit, have a go using the link above provided by Alinaga (numbeo.com). Not sure how accurate the information is, but it is quite detailed. It has rate for renting and casa.it here may give you an idea what is available.


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