# Is there a way to know before buying?



## cieloytierra (Sep 27, 2010)

Hello to each of you

My husband and I are considering very seriously to move to Portugal (we are in the UK) 

I came to Portugal for the first time this August and I did like what I experienced. Found the people very friendly and very polite. We loved the idea of having pure fresch water from the mountains (so many spring water there is just out of this world!)

Anyway, after two weeks of enjoying the weather (rather unable to do much because it was hot like an hoven) we decided to move our acts and start searching for properties. We saw a few we are considering, but because our budget is quite small, we are incline to go for a good piece of land used mainly for sheeps. The land has a huge warehouse, all made of blocks and several small buildings. The price is very good. The problem is we saw this property just one day before coming back to UK and only have spoken to the owner by phone. He believes the warehouse can be applied for habitacio.

Is there a way we can find out if this is the case? Can we approach from here (UK) an office to ask for that specific land? 

We highly favour it because already has electricity and plenty of water, and of course the big building that can be convert it into a nice home.

Any thoughst?

Many thanks for your time


CieloyTierra

P.S. I do speak a bit of portuguese


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## MrBife (Jul 26, 2009)

cieloytierra said:


> He believes the warehouse can be applied for habitacio.


If that is actually the case why would he not apply for it himself and sell for four times the value ?

Check the designation of the land, if it is for agricultural use then that is how it's likely to stay. Check the PDM (Municpal Plan) at the town hall to see whether this is likely to change.


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## cieloytierra (Sep 27, 2010)

MrBife, many thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I guess we just have to wait until our next visit maybe next December and find out for ourselves.


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## cieloytierra (Sep 27, 2010)

MrBife, do you know how much is the application or whole process for the habitacio?


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## niner_mike (Jun 2, 2009)

I believe the whole process might involve architects/surveyors etc (& maybe months) before you can be sure of legally turning a barn-like structure into a habitation, so it isn´t likely to be cheap. 

As a starting point you could try asking the owners for copies of the Land Registry "Certidão" & Caderneta Predial, at the very least these will tell you the true current status of the property & give you the info needed to ask the Camara what is or isn´t possible.


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## MrBife (Jul 26, 2009)

Without wishing to spoil your dream I think you will find that the ''large building made of blocks' is unlikely to have been built in a way that would make it suitable for conversion and you would first have to pull it down. (no proper footings or foundations, no provision for bathroom drains in the slab, no insulation etc etc).

Please don't overlook the golden rule about believing what people tell you when they have a vested interest in the outcome. (as I said in my earlier post, if it really was easy and cheap to change the status from agricultural to residential then anyone with any sense would have done it long ago as it changes the value significantly).

I am glad you found an area you would like to live in but I do think you should take a look at buying some land with outline approval to build as a more straight forward option.

If you are really determined to take the original project further then just say to the owner that you agree to purchase on the agreemment that habitation he has said is possible is actually confirmed and say to him that you will ask your lawyer to draw up a provisional contract to that effect and put the deposit in an escrow account. If he gets the licence then you will buy immediately and refund his costs. I think you will see how quickly the story changes then !


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## cieloytierra (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm deeply grateful for you comments and advice! I can see how easy is to fall into big mistakes when one wants something very much. The land is dead cheap, but I'm sospecting now is not worth the whole issue. I feel a bit depressed now because I'm coming down to earth and I see that our dream has to wait much longer than thought. The safest road (at least for people like myself and husband who doesn't have much money) is to wait for a house we can afford but with everything in order.

Thanks again and I will keep posting here as I do have others questions about your own experiences in Portugal.


All the best


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## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

All that glitters is NOT gold. When something looks too good to be true it usually does because it isn't. If you should fail to do your homework thoroughly
and in advance you will next find that you have almost zero comeback when everything goes belly up. 

I was just recently watching a programme called homes from hell that took up the story of a couple from the uk who purchased a pt renovation project with land for their horses and they next paid €250,000 for it. The trouble was that no one thought to mention that the land was soon going to have a motorway built straight through it. The house would remain but one would now be basically living in a house on a traffic island. 

They were next informed by a second estate agent that in his opinion it was now worth no more than €120,000 but that it would be pointless for him to even market it for that. Believe nothing that anyone tells you here. Check out everything for yourself. All second hand information is worthless in my experience.


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## omostra06 (Sep 11, 2007)

Mr.Blueskies said:


> All that glitters is NOT gold. When something looks too good to be true it usually does because it isn't. If you should fail to do your homework thoroughly
> and in advance you will next find that you have almost zero comeback when everything goes belly up.
> 
> I was just recently watching a programme called homes from hell that took up the story of a couple from the uk who purchased a pt renovation project with land for their horses and they next paid €250,000 for it. The trouble was that no one thought to mention that the land was soon going to have a motorway built straight through it. The house would remain but one would now be basically living in a house on a traffic island.
> ...


The main problem in this "homes from hell" case was that there was no Lawyer involved in the purchase, a lawyer would have found and informed the buyer of the motorway, which would have stopped them buying it, but because they did not employ a lawyer no one done any searches on the property before purchase, in this case a lawyer would also have found that a large part of the land is reserve and no building is allowed! 
always use a lawyer.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I am not living in Portugal, however if you had asked the same question here in the Canary Islands you would receive this advice.


Do not initially buy, rent at first, get a feel for the place, it is a buyers market, take your time. Try at least a year renting, experience all the seasons, the hot summer no doubt will be replaced by a cool winter. The one thing about renting is, you are not committed, if you do not like your location you can give notice and move to another area.


Hepa


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

MrBife said:


> Without wishing to spoil your dream I think you will find that the ''large building made of blocks' is unlikely to have been built in a way that would make it suitable for conversion and you would first have to pull it down. (no proper footings or foundations, no provision for bathroom drains in the slab, no insulation etc etc).
> 
> Please don't overlook the golden rule about believing what people tell you when they have a vested interest in the outcome. (as I said in my earlier post, if it really was easy and cheap to change the status from agricultural to residential then anyone with any sense would have done it long ago as it changes the value significantly).
> 
> ...



TOTALLY AGREE WITH ALL OF MR. BIFE´S ADVICE. 
There have been many people deceived in this way. Deposits lost, sometimes substantial ones! 
Very often the deposit finds it´s way to the owner and you can kiss goodbye to it.


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

The easeast way to know if you can built and what, is to ask the Câmara a "Viabilidade de Construção--VC (Building Viability). The Câmara will suply you with a document that will be valid for 1 year, meaning that if you ask again for it you may get a diferent response since the PDM may have changed (or other rules).


To ask for a VC you dont have to submit any project whatsoever, it is just an A4 sheet. I am not here if only the owner can ask for a VC, I think anybody can. So my advise would be for you to call the owner and ask him to require a VC, and mail the response back to you. VC´s are faster to get then arquitectural projects aproval.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

paramonte said:


> The easeast way to know if you can built and what, is to ask the Câmara a "Viabilidade de Construção--VC (Building Viability). The Câmara will suply you with a document that will be valid for 1 year, meaning that if you ask again for it you may get a diferent response since the PDM may have changed (or other rules).
> 
> 
> To ask for a VC you dont have to submit any project whatsoever, it is just an A4 sheet. I am not here if only the owner can ask for a VC, I think anybody can. So my advise would be for you to call the owner and ask him to require a VC, and mail the response back to you. VC´s are faster to get then arquitectural projects aproval.



I agree entirely with this, please do also bear in mind that the VC in no way implies that planning approval for a particular project will be a foregone conclusion. 
Having just come through a lengthy process involving approval of especialidades it is worth not underestimating how long all the various stages will take. 

Rob


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

The VC is legally binding for the Câmara, and will tell you what is the land classification, if it is urban it will tell you what is the total percentage of the plot area you can build in, how many floors, etc.

VC actualy implies what is writen on it, for instance if it says that you can build on 5% of the plot a 2 floors house thats what you get, it is a document valid in court should the need arise...although I never heard of such a court case.

You must take consideration that, dispite the VC being valid for one year, doesn´t mean that you have to build in one year, it just means that you have one year to pick up the building licence, and once you do this you have up to 2 years to finish building, if you can´t you can renovate the building licence a couple of times (paying a fine) just with a letter to the Câmara, this will give you +/- 3 years more.

So even if the PDM changes during your building process you will not be afected as long as your building licence has not expired.


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## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

omostra06 said:


> The main problem in this "homes from hell" case was that there was no Lawyer involved in the purchase, a lawyer would have found and informed the buyer of the motorway, which would have stopped them buying it, but because they did not employ a lawyer no one done any searches on the property before purchase, in this case a lawyer would also have found that a large part of the land is reserve and no building is allowed!
> always use a lawyer.



Hi Derek,

Would the portuguese not have just put a compulsory purchase order on a property like that since they were about to build a motorway through it ?


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## omostra06 (Sep 11, 2007)

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Hi Derek,
> 
> Would the portuguese not have just put a compulsory purchase order on a property like that since they were about to build a motorway through it ?


The government will indeed put a compulsory purchase order on it, regardless of who owns it at the time, they will buy the section of land required for the new road from the owners. as well as hundreds of other buits of land from other owners, to build the road.


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## mayotom (Nov 8, 2008)

omostra06 said:


> always use a lawyer.


I don't understand why so many people cut corners and not use a local lawyer...

but in their home country they would insist on using a lawyer.


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## cieloytierra (Sep 27, 2010)

Wow, thanks for all your replies! We (husband and I) are going to make sure this project goes as straight forward as possible. We have decided to rent a quinta for a year and have a proper feel of the country.

So far we only know the Castelo Branco area and Tabua, we need to travel and have the feel of other areas in central Portugal. Because of the fire situation in the north of the country, we are certain we dont want to be too far in the north. We loved all the area of Fundao...lovely green areas full of fruits and vegetables.


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## omostra06 (Sep 11, 2007)

mayotom said:


> I don't understand why so many people cut corners and not use a local lawyer...
> 
> but in their home country they would insist on using a lawyer.


In this case the buyers were misled as to not using a lawyer by the agent involved, which resulted in the problems they now are faced with.

But you are right about people doing things here that they would never do in their home country,


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

In my humble opinion hiring a lawyer is not the "medicine for all the deseases", although it might be almost mandatoty in many situations, like you buying property, if you are a foreigner. Of course I am assuming an independent lawyer.

But dont forget that lawyers strive on complicated cases, so if the case is simple, that will mean less $$ for him, so he may "fix" that by doing some folklore diversion around the case. To avoid that you have to do your homework all along, not easy for somebody that doesn´t speak the language, but with online translators and some imagination, you will understand the basics of the system, and I have known foreigners that grew to be experts on it, to the point of correcting their embaraced lawyers.

I have read in some other forum somebody complaining about his lawyer not wanting to go about conecting the utilities to the new house. Utility conections, bills and all the lot, it is something we will live with the rest of our lives, so better to be acaquanted with from day one.


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## -mia- (Dec 23, 2009)

omostra06 said:


> The main problem in this "homes from hell" case was that there was no Lawyer involved in the purchase, a lawyer would have found and informed the buyer of the motorway, which would have stopped them buying it, but because they did not employ a lawyer no one done any searches on the property before purchase, in this case a lawyer would also have found that a large part of the land is reserve and no building is allowed!
> always use a lawyer.


I didn't watch the show and can't seem to find it online. 

My question is isn't there a notary involved in the sale and if so what is his responsibility in this? I know that in France the notary needs to tell you about this kind of thing and if he doesn't you can sue him. They should have insurance for this kind of thing. I wonder if in Portugal this could be a possibility for the family in this show. 




As to the reply to the OP, I agree with the person who said to rent before you buy or make any permanent changes. You've been in Portugal once for 2 weeks? You might need a bit more time before you can be sure this is a place you might want to stay more than a few months to a year. In that time it doesn't make sense to buy real estate.


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