# Cold Feet With Taking The Plunge



## markinchelsea (Sep 10, 2016)

Hello There, 

My name is Mark and I am a newbie here. I hope everyone is doing great? Anyway just wanted to ask peoples advice. Me and my partner have had a plan to do early retirement to Costa Del Sol in early 2017. This has been our dream and plan for the past 5 years. We will be cash buyers so don't need a mortgage. We have viewed some properties and have found the perfect one. Tho probably like a lot of people on here I am just so worried about Brexit. My understanding is that as the UK have not officially left the EU everything stays the same. Also once Ms May triggers Article 50 there is a 2 year negotiating period so nothing will change with regard to our rights for a few more years. Tho what happens once we have officially left the EU, I am just paranoid that Spain might chuck us out or make it difficult for us to stay and live there. Also once we have moved to Spain will we still be able to register as residents if Article 50 has been triggered?

Sorry for my paranoia just I feel that the UK is making things so difficult for people and kinda threatening to shatter peoples dreams. 

Thanks for reading and any reassurance or positivity would be greatly appreciated. 

Mark


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

markinchelsea said:


> Hello There,
> 
> My name is Mark and I am a newbie here. I hope everyone is doing great? Anyway just wanted to ask peoples advice. Me and my partner have had a plan to do early retirement to Costa Del Sol in early 2017. This has been our dream and plan for the past 5 years. We will be cash buyers so don't need a mortgage. We have viewed some properties and have found the perfect one. Tho probably like a lot of people on here I am just so worried about Brexit. My understanding is that as the UK have not officially left the EU everything stays the same. Also once Ms May triggers Article 50 there is a 2 year negotiating period so nothing will change with regard to our rights for a few more years. Tho what happens once we have officially left the EU, I am just paranoid that Spain might chuck us out or make it difficult for us to stay and live there. Also once we have moved to Spain will we still be able to register as residents if Article 50 has been triggered?
> 
> ...


Spain didn't join the EU until 1986 and the British started retiring here long before that! Why on earth would Spain want to make it difficult for Brits to live in their country? The Spanish authorities spend millions of euros promoting their country to the Brits as a place to take holidays or to live. Brits make a major contribution to the Spanish economy and I am sure the government here will be bending over backwards to make sure nothing happens to put them off from coming after Brexit negotiations are concluded.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

No-one knows what will happen after Brexit eventually happens


Worst case scenario is that retired British citizens will have to apply for a retirement visa should they wish to move here, as all other non-EU citizens do. 

That will be up to the EU. Spain won't be able to make its own rules, beyond deciding on the required income level.

The following showing income requirement is from the Spanish Consulate in San Francisco. http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/SANFRANCISCO/en/ConsularServices/Documents/visas/RetirementVisa.pdf



> Proof of Permanent Retirement income from an official institution (social security or other private source) to live in Spain without working. The minimum income required is 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per each additional family member.



So that equates to a proven minimum income of 31,950€ a year for a couple. 


If the UK stops paying for the healthcare of British citizens resident in EU countries private health insurance will also be required.


General belief is that anyone already living in other EU countries before Brexit actually happens will be fine to stay. 

But who knows - maybe Spain or the EU will decide that only those in place before the referendum are OK to stay, or maybe before the date A50 is triggered.

All 3 possibilities have been mooted. But nothing will be sure until the ink on the final Brexit agreement is dry.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> Spain didn't join the EU until 1986 and the British started retiring here long before that! Why on earth would Spain want to make it difficult for Brits to live in their country? The Spanish authorities spend millions of euros promoting their country to the Brits as a place to take holidays or to live. Brits make a major contribution to the Spanish economy and I am sure the government here will be bending over backwards to make sure nothing happens to put them off from coming after Brexit negotiations are concluded.


While I totally agree that if Brits stopped coming for holidays to Spain, it would make a dent in the economy, since the UK is by far the country which sends the most tourists. It's unlikely that that will change after Brexit. Possibly a visitor visa will be required, but that isn't a huge problem.


But less than 2% of the resident population of Spain is of British origin, so although in some areas with lots of resident Brits, we'd be missed, overall the country wouldn't even notice if we all left tomorrow.

Neither would it make much difference overall if we stopped buying property. While Brit are the biggest group of foreigners buying property in Spain, less than 13% of properties are bought by foreigners, & only 20% of those are Brits.

So less than 3% of properties sold in Spain are sold to Brits. Not many in the scheme of things, so I'm not convinced that Spain will be ''bending over backwards'' to make it easier for Brits to move here, than it is for any other non-EU citizen.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Very much agree with xabiachica. British tourism and residence is a positive, but in the bigger picture...
If we think about how Spain tends to operate I think it's very likely that some kind of nominal payment will be introduced for tourists like there already is in some parts of the country I believe (Baleric islands?) via a tax, a visa or something...
But whatever changes it will have to be in line with other non eu members surely, not just aimed at people from the UK?


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> No-one knows what will happen after Brexit eventually happens
> 
> 
> Worst case scenario is that retired British citizens will have to apply for a retirement visa should they wish to move here, as all other non-EU citizens do.
> ...


Yes, of course, you are right, nobody knows for sure what will happen, and there is a lot of posturing going on at the moment between politicians who are spouting all sorts of nonsense, but pragmatism will prevail. There are three million people from other EU countries living in the UK (5% of the UK population, in fact) and nearly 150,000 of these are Spanish. There are 1.2 million Brits living in other EU countries. When all the political shenanigans are concluded we will be left with a reciprocal agreement between the UK and the EU which will no doubt not be far removed from what exists at the moment and Brits will continue to enjoy their retirement in the Spanish sunshine. If I'm proved wrong I will cook a giant paella and invite all forum members to a free fiesta at my place!


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

The Skipper said:


> Yes, of course, you are right, nobody knows for sure what will happen, and there is a lot of posturing going on at the moment between politicians who are spouting all sorts of nonsense, but pragmatism will prevail. There are three million people from other EU countries living in the UK (5% of the UK population, in fact) and nearly 150,000 of these are Spanish. There are 1.2 million Brits living in other EU countries. When all the political shenanigans are concluded we will be left with a reciprocal agreement between the UK and the EU which will no doubt not be far removed from what exists at the moment and Brits will continue to enjoy their retirement in the Spanish sunshine. If I'm proved wrong I will cook a giant paella and invite all forum members to a free fiesta at my place!


PS: Just read this on the Migration Watch UK website: "The government’s paper 'The Process for Withdrawing from the European Union' argues that British citizens in the EU should not assume that rights acquired under free movement rules 'would be guaranteed' if the UK were to vote to leave the EU. However, in such a circumstance. international law would guarantee the rights of Britons living and working in EU member states. Under a principle enshrined by the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, withdrawal from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> PS: Just read this on the Migration Watch UK website: "The government’s paper 'The Process for Withdrawing from the European Union' argues that British citizens in the EU should not assume that rights acquired under free movement rules 'would be guaranteed' if the UK were to vote to leave the EU. However, in such a circumstance. international law would guarantee the rights of Britons living and working in EU member states. Under a principle enshrined by the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, withdrawal from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."


And what are those rights?


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> While I totally agree that if Brits stopped coming for holidays to Spain, it would make a dent in the economy, since the UK is by far the country which sends the most tourists. It's unlikely that that will change after Brexit. Possibly a visitor visa will be required, but that isn't a huge problem.
> 
> 
> But less than 2% of the resident population of Spain is of British origin, so although in some areas with lots of resident Brits, we'd be missed, overall the country wouldn't even notice if we all left tomorrow.
> ...


You don't really believe that "overall the country wouldn't even notice if we all left tomorrow," do you? You're saying that if 2% of the Spanish population (that's about 900,000 people, isn't it?) left tomorrow, the country wouldn't notice it? How much would that cost the Spanish economy? All that lost tax revenue, IVA, spending in shops, etc. I think perhaps you made this comment in haste without thinking it through!


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And what are those rights?


I'm reading that as the rights you guys currently enjoy.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

To the OP have you checked to see if you are entitled to an Irish passport or any other EU country passport as that may be a way of beating the Brexit fall out ( if there is any that is).


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Quote:
Regarding proof of income for Pensions:
Proof of Permanent Retirement income from an official institution (social security or other private source) to live in Spain without working. The minimum income required is 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per each additional family member.

So that equates to a proven minimum income of 31,950€ a year for a couple.
End Quote:

I know a lot of Pensioners in the UK who would struggle to meet a 25,560 Euro's minimum income - let alone the
31,950 Euros a year as a couple in Pension income.
Or £21,635.53 minimum and £27,044.41 as a couple at today's exchange rate in sterling.

Brexit will definately mean Brexit after the UK leaves the EU - if the above criteria were to be applied to all UK
citizens seeking to retire to an EU country after final Brexit. Unless other factors besides annual income from
your pension were to be taken into consideration ?
But until A50 is invoked and the final UK - EU negotiations are finally concluded - who knows ???


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> You don't really believe that "overall the country wouldn't even notice if we all left tomorrow," do you? You're saying that if 2% of the Spanish population (that's about 900,000 people, isn't it?) left tomorrow, the country wouldn't notice it? How much would that cost the Spanish economy? All that lost tax revenue, IVA, spending in shops, etc. I think perhaps you made this comment in haste without thinking it through!


I do mean it, & I have thought it through


OK - it would be noticed. I give you that. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much.


There are less than 800,000 Brits here apparently. It's likely more, but since the 'uncounted' are living below the radar & not paying tax etc, I think we can largely ignore them. My point is, to hear some people talk, there are so many of us spending so much money that no properties would ever sell again & Spain would go bust. 

In my town it would leave a huge hole (about 20% of us are British) & of course that would be true in many areas. But in Spain overall, no. We're a tiny minority, & our spending is a small part of the country's income. We aren't propping Spain up all by ourselves.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> I do mean it, & I have thought it through
> 
> 
> OK - it would be noticed. I give you that. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much.
> ...


Sorry, but I think you are grossly under-estimating the damage that would be caused to the economy. I think if you told the Spanish finance minister that he was going to lose billions a year in revenue (because that is what it would mean) he would have a heart attack! Just think of the indirect losses, let alone the direct contributions made by Brits (Spanish jobs lost in service industries, shops, airports, etc). I think we would be seeing more sit-ins in Puerta del Sol once the government cuts were announced to bring the budget back into line.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> Sorry, but I think you are grossly under-estimating the damage that would be caused to the economy. I think if you told the Spanish finance minister that he was going to lose billions a year in revenue (because that is what it would mean) he would have a heart attack! Just think of the indirect losses, let alone the direct contributions made by Brits (Spanish jobs lost in service industries, shops, airports, etc). I think we would be seeing more sit-ins in Puerta del Sol once the government cuts were announced to bring the budget back into line.


I think you're grossly over-estimating it....


How would Brits not living in Spain mean job losses at airports?

It's probably/hopefully not going to matter anyway.

It's unlikely those of us here will be kicked out, so a sudden 2% drop in revenue isn't likely to happen - so no heart attack for the finance minister.
.
Fewer might move here in the future though. Perhaps Spain won't miss what it never had? It's impossible to say.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The Skipper said:


> You don't really believe that "overall the country wouldn't even notice if we all left tomorrow," do you? You're saying that if 2% of the Spanish population (that's about 900,000 people, isn't it?) left tomorrow, the country wouldn't notice it? How much would that cost the Spanish economy? All that lost tax revenue, IVA, spending in shops, etc. I think perhaps you made this comment in haste without thinking it through!


There wouldn't be that much lost tax revenue because so many Brits don't pay their taxes.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I think if they applied a similar criteria in the UK to EU immigrants, then there would be thousands returning which might cause a problem to the unemployment figures and social security payments. I'm sure some sort of middle ground will be found and advantageous to both sides. There could be more than one loser in this if common sense doesn't prevail, at the moment they seem to be all trying to position themselves as the strongest side with the least to lose.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> I think you're grossly over-estimating it....
> 
> 
> How would Brits not living in Spain mean job losses at airports?
> ...


Well, at least we can agree on one thing: "It's probably/hopefully not going to matter anyway."


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

The biggest obstacle to meaningful negotiations is Juncker who has made a Presidential decree that no negotiations are to take place until Article 50 is triggered. This is being challenged in the Courts and who knows, if for once they give a decision in favour of the UK Government, then some sensible talks can start to take place between grown ups and he can go and play with his toys once he's found where he's thrown them.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Spain survived for thousands of years before the EU and even with a Britless EU, Spain will survive for years to come. The UK will survive too and not for the first time Britain will stand alone.

The recession is not over in Spain, but the economic situation there continues to improve. Non Spaniard occupants of Spain are part of the recoveryand I think every Spanish person in coastal Spain recognises this. 

Even in Brexit, Spain cannot afford to lose the spending Brits. [Just off the subject, Ireland has more Brits holidaying in Ireland this year and believe me, we do all we can to have them return next year and beyond]. The customer has many choices and Spain is just one, and Spain won't refuse money from anywhere. I would not fear Brexit.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> There wouldn't be that much lost tax revenue because so many Brits don't pay their taxes.


That's true. It's also true that a great many Spaniards don't pay their taxes either (including, at least in the past, many leading political figures)!


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

We were all set to put our house on the market but after reading this thread I have cold feet too!
The required level of income has shocked me. There must be loads of Brits who fall under this level surely? We will both be taking early retirement so won't have the required amount, but we will have a large amount of savings from the sale of our house (I hope!!) Does anyone know if this would be taken into account?
We will be paying for our own healthcare and have no intention of claiming any benefits in Spain.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

infomaniac said:


> We were all set to put our house on the market but after reading this thread I have cold feet too!
> The required level of income has shocked me. There must be loads of Brits who fall under this level surely? We will both be taking early retirement so won't have the required amount, but we will have a large amount of savings from the sale of our house (I hope!!) Does anyone know if this would be taken into account?
> We will be paying for our own healthcare and have no intention of claiming any benefits in Spain.


At the last count, you had to show that you had a monthly income of €650 per person going into a Spanish bank account and health-care coverage. Some Foreigners' Offices will also, or may, require in addition €6,000 per person in savings also in a Spanish bank account. Now the point is, it doesn't have to stay in the account. There is nothing to stop you depositing the required €650 (x the number of people) into the bank on the 1st of September, draw it out in chunks over the month and redeposit it in one lump on the 1st October and so on - this looks as though you receive an income that goes into the bank on the 1st of each month. nudge nudge, you know what I mean guv'nor? :wink: 

Don't forget that this is only in the period up to your registration as a resident which you may have to renew after five years if you want to be made permanent.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> At the last count, you had to show that you had a monthly income of €650 per person going into a Spanish bank account and health-care coverage. Some Foreigners' Offices will also, or may, require in addition €6,000 per person in savings also in a Spanish bank account. Now the point is, it doesn't have to stay in the account. There is nothing to stop you depositing the required €650 (x the number of people) into the bank on the 1st of September, draw it out in chunks over the month and redeposit it in one lump on the 1st October and so on - this looks as though you receive an income that goes into the bank on the 1st of each month. nudge nudge, you know what I mean guv'nor? :wink:
> 
> Don't forget that this is only in the period up to your registration as a resident* which you may have to renew after five years if you want to be made permanent*.


You don't have to renew anything nor indeed do anything after 5 years. You are simply a 'permanent resident' at that point. You can, if you wish, ask for a certificate which says 'permanent' on it, but you don't need to.

PERMANENT RESIDENCY IN SPAIN & SPANISH NATIONALITY


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Yes we did think along those lines but was getting visions of Del Boy when he was banged up in the Spanish jail


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

infomaniac said:


> We were all set to put our house on the market but after reading this thread I have cold feet too!
> The required level of income has shocked me. There must be loads of Brits who fall under this level surely? We will both be taking early retirement so won't have the required amount, but we will have a large amount of savings from the sale of our house (I hope!!) Does anyone know if this would be taken into account?
> We will be paying for our own healthcare and have no intention of claiming any benefits in Spain.


When we took early retirement 2 years ago we moved here after selling our house. We had the proceeds of our house sale in a UK account, had about €3000 in an existing non resident Spanish account with deposits of €700 per month going into it.

We had healthcare sorted and proved we had an income from private pensions. (It did not amount to the figures that have been suggested of €650 each.) We were accepted on the figures we could provide

Do more research on this subject. 

Steve


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Hi Steve, that's encouraging as your situation is almost identical to ours, and we will be going to the Costa Blanca too. Did you only keep the UK bank account open until everything was OK'd?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

infomaniac said:


> Hi Steve, that's encouraging as your situation is almost identical to ours, and we will be going to the Costa Blanca too. Did you only keep the UK bank account open until everything was OK'd?


It can be a good idea to keep a UK bank account open although it is difficult if you have cheques to pay in although you can always post them to the bank with a paying-in slip. They are handy if you want to buy things from the UK (e.g. from amazon UK and other UK based online retailers - saves paying for foreign exchange conversions.)


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Good idea Baldilocks! To be honest it's yet another thing we haven't thought of yet  We would have to ask someone if we could use their UK address though I imagine?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

infomaniac said:


> Good idea Baldilocks! To be honest it's yet another thing we haven't thought of yet  We would have to ask someone if we could use their UK address though I imagine?


No, there's no need to use a UK address. My husband and I have both kept our UK accounts on, and our UK credit cards too. The bank and credit card company are happy to send statements to our Spanish address.

In my case, my main pension provider will only make payments into a UK account, so I am very glad I kept it open. Once you have closed UK accounts, it is very difficult to open a new one if you aren't resident in the UK.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

infomaniac said:


> Good idea Baldilocks! To be honest it's yet another thing we haven't thought of yet  We would have to ask someone if we could use their UK address though I imagine?


Not necessary! We maintained UK accounts with Barclays and Nationwide after we moved to Spain and both banks were happy to accept our Spanish address. We still have the Nationwide account and use their debit and credit cards. In fact, nearly all of our purchasing in Spain (shopping, restaurants, etc) is done with our Nationwide credit card which does not make any charge and gives a highly competitive exchange rate. We pay off the credit card each month with the proceeds of my pensions which are paid into the UK account. We transfer funds from Nationwide to our Spanish bank as needed using Transferwise.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

infomaniac said:


> Hi Steve, that's encouraging as your situation is almost identical to ours, and we will be going to the Costa Blanca too. Did you only keep the UK bank account open until everything was OK'd?



Like other posters have said, it's a good idea to keep your UK bank account open. My private pension companies will only pay into a UK bank account. I've kept my Barclays Bank account open and manage it online. I transfer a certain amount each month to my Sabadell bank account online using Transferwise. 

Steve


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

That's great-thanks a lot everyone. We were under the impression that you had to live in the UK to have a UK bank a/c.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I still have a UK (current) account after 30 yrs here. This year was the first year I've received *any* correspondence from them about it. I just had to tell them my tax code, which is our NIE and tell them I'd paid tax here last year.


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## Jesnat (Mar 5, 2016)

If you already have a UK bank account I think it's worth holding on to it and absolutely no need to close it. We have some small UK £ income and no need to even think about trying to convert it and pay it in here. Also transferring Euro's from your UK bank may not give a decent exchange rate but it can be very useful in an emergency. Just have a chat with your branch. We applied for our residency in Cartagena (office for the Costa Blanca) a couple of months ago and just showed them our Sabadell bank statement with 12k recently transferred. They didn't ask to see any regular payments or income. The whole process was straightforward with forms downloaded from the FAQ's here. I think the requirement is just to show you won't be a burden on the state although I guess this can differ around the country.


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Brilliant  thanks a lot.


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

We are in the same position - but have already sold our house and are moving at the end of October. First bit of advice would be - don't buy immediately. Thousands of people make that mistake. If you have decided where you think you want to live, get a long-term (6-11 month) rental there and make sure. We have been told (reliably) that around 80% of people that do this actually end up buying somewhere different to where they originally planned. 
In terms of Brexit - Brits have been buying property in Spain for a century - there are hundreds of thousands of us in Spain and our money is critical to the Spanish economy. Brits also account for the huge majority of Spain's holiday makers - Spain cannot afford to upset the Brits that much.
Have a look at the gov.uk website page - /guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain - which in essence says that (a) nothing has changed because of the referendum and (b) you don't have to be an EU citizen to get Spanish residency anyway.
Good luck with your move next year.


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

infomaniac said:


> We will be paying for our own healthcare and have no intention of claiming any benefits in Spain.


Just in case you are not aware - if you are a UK pensioner, then you are entitled in Spain to full healthcare as if you were a Spanish citizen; and the bill for that is paid by the UK NHS. That agreement is outside of the EU itself, between Spain and Britain; so there seems no reason for Brexit to change it (but who knows?)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ianjames said:


> *We are in the same position - but have already sold our house and are moving at the end of October. First bit of advice would be - don't buy immediately. Thousands of people make that mistake.* If you have decided where you think you want to live, get a long-term (6-11 month) rental there and make sure. We have been told (reliably) that around 80% of people that do this actually end up buying somewhere different to where they originally planned.
> In terms of Brexit - Brits have been buying property in Spain for a century - there are hundreds of thousands of us in Spain and our money is critical to the Spanish economy. Brits also account for the huge majority of Spain's holiday makers - Spain cannot afford to upset the Brits that much.
> Have a look at the gov.uk website page - /guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain - which in essence says that (a) nothing has changed because of the referendum and (b) you don't have to be an EU citizen to get Spanish residency anyway.
> Good luck with your move next year.


Not necessarily true. If you have researched well and know just what you are looking for, you may find the place you want where you want it and save yourself paying out/wasting maybe 4-6,000 Euros in rent and, if you have already sold your place in UK or wherever, what do you do with the contents of your old place - storage = another unnecessary expense. We found our place and then moved here almost 8 years ago and are perfectly happy.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

The Spanish prime minister has made many anti-UK comments
Gibralter is and always will be an issue
When you read the appalling comments the Brexit Morons make , both in Spain and the UK 
there are bound to be repercussions against the Brits abroad at some stage
The comments are shocking and stupid beyond belief and guaranteed to cause trouble.
My personal thoughts are if you are rich enough to meet all of the current requirements for a non eu person to get a visa to live in Spain - 31k+ proven annual income, guaranteed to rise with inflation, comprehensive paid for health cover, the confidence to keep reapplying for future visas, a very thick skin, i don't care how much the spanish government rips me off for additional taxes because i'm foreign attitude and a large amount of personal wealth - i would do it tomorrow.
but i would never buy abroad , beyond the cheapest apartment and would never invest in Spain in any way shape or form - preferably i would live here and still keep a base in my home country
Spain treats non EU people appallingly from a tax perspective and when non of the EU health cover, pension, tax allowances apply - it will be far more difficult for UK expats


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Not necessarily true. If you have researched well and know just what you are looking for, you may find the place you want where you want it and save yourself paying out/wasting maybe 4-6,000 Euros in rent and, if you have already sold your place in UK or wherever, what do you do with the contents of your old place - storage = another unnecessary expense. We found our place and then moved here almost 8 years ago and are perfectly happy.


Agreed, but in 5 years of research, you are probably the first person to advocate taking that risk! I'm glad it worked for you. For us, the cost of rent and storage probably amounts to less than 2% of the price we'll be paying for our villa - and that's an insurance premium I'm very happy to pay! Also, advice from estate agents is that, once we get known as residents in an area and get to know our way around, the chances are we'll be able to purchase at around 10% less than we may have done if we jumped straight in. That's a potential €50,000 saving in our case. Of course, property prices could suddenly rocket - but current market intelligence is that purchases by Brits have fallen through the floor and that has caused the market to stall even more than usual - so that doesn't seem too much of a risk right now. Life is always a gamble!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

steve01 said:


> The Spanish prime minister has made many anti-UK comments
> Gibralter is and always will be an issue


Other than Gibraltar, which is a political football completely unrelated to Brits living or working in Spain, I can't recall any anti UK comments from our current or previous Spanish presidents. Can you provide some examples?


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

ianjames said:


> Agreed, but in 5 years of research, you are probably the first person to advocate taking that risk! I'm glad it worked for you. For us, the cost of rent and storage probably amounts to less than 2% of the price we'll be paying for our villa - and that's an insurance premium I'm very happy to pay! Also, advice from estate agents is that, once we get known as residents in an area and get to know our way around, the chances are we'll be able to purchase at around 10% less than we may have done if we jumped straight in. That's a potential €50,000 saving in our case. Of course, property prices could suddenly rocket - but current market intelligence is that purchases by Brits have fallen through the floor and that has caused the market to stall even more than usual - so that doesn't seem too much of a risk right now. Life is always a gamble!


Not the first ... we did the same! But we did research living in Spain for over a year before actually selling up and moving over. We spent weeks driving all around the areas we decided to live in and did extensive searches online as well as reading a mountain of books about buying property in Spain and living in the country. We did rent for about six weeks before completing the house purchase (because we had sold our UK house and had to move out) but we had no doubts that the house we decided to buy here was right for us and we are still happy after nine years and have no regrets.


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## Simon22 (May 22, 2015)

We did rent but only for two months and we broke all the rules. No intention of moving anywhere in March last year, we drove across with our cat in June, bought a house in August and love it. Sometimes you have to get on with it or you can miss the whole adventure.


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> Not the first ... we did the same! But we did research living in Spain for over a year before actually selling up and moving over. We spent weeks driving all around the areas we decided to live in and did extensive searches online as well as reading a mountain of books about buying property in Spain and living in the country. We did rent for about six weeks before completing the house purchase (because we had sold our UK house and had to move out) but we had no doubts that the house we decided to buy here was right for us and we are still happy after nine years and have no regrets.


That is encouraging - and again I'm very glad for you - and we have also done a lot of research and visits - but at this stage are not convinced that we could actually live there permanently. Living is totally different from visiting; we don't know how well we will fit and and feel comfortable; and, at this stage, we are undecided between 2 or 3 different areas; so for us, the recommended route of a long-term rental in our most likely chosen area has to be the way for us to go. In practice, the money we don't spend initially on buying the villa will be invested and will cover all the additional rental costs; so it's really a no-brainer for us.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ianjames said:


> *Agreed, but in 5 years of research, you are probably the first person to advocate taking that risk! *I'm glad it worked for you. For us, the cost of rent and storage probably amounts to less than 2% of the price we'll be paying for our villa - and that's an insurance premium I'm very happy to pay! Also, advice from estate agents is that, once we get known as residents in an area and get to know our way around, the chances are we'll be able to purchase at around 10% less than we may have done if we jumped straight in. That's a potential €50,000 saving in our case. Of course, property prices could suddenly rocket - but current market intelligence is that purchases by Brits have fallen through the floor and that has caused the market to stall even more than usual - so that doesn't seem too much of a risk right now. Life is always a gamble!


As I said if you know what you want and where to find it, the risk is minimal. However if €50k is only 10%, then you must be looking at Millionaires' Row and can afford a few thousand loss anyway.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ianjames said:


> Agreed, but in 5 years of research, you are probably the first person to advocate taking that risk! I'm glad it worked for you. For us, the cost of rent and storage probably amounts to less than 2% of the price we'll be paying for our villa - and that's an insurance premium I'm very happy to pay! Also, advice from estate agents is that, once we get known as residents in an area and get to know our way around, the chances are we'll be able to purchase at around 10% less than we may have done if we jumped straight in. That's a potential €50,000 saving in our case. Of course, property prices could suddenly rocket - but current market intelligence is that purchases by Brits have fallen through the floor and that has caused the market to stall even more than usual - so that doesn't seem too much of a risk right now. Life is always a gamble!


Like @Baldilocks we also moved straight into our home - no renting and, as a family, are extremely happy with our choice.

We are perhaps in the minority and my advice would always be to rent first - but that's not for everyone.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

ianjames said:


> That is encouraging - and again I'm very glad for you - and we have also done a lot of research and visits - but at this stage are not convinced that we could actually live there permanently. Living is totally different from visiting; we don't know how well we will fit and and feel comfortable; and, at this stage, we are undecided between 2 or 3 different areas; so for us, the recommended route of a long-term rental in our most likely chosen area has to be the way for us to go. In practice, the money we don't spend initially on buying the villa will be invested and will cover all the additional rental costs; so it's really a no-brainer for us.


If you have doubts I think your plan makes sense. We put on paper everything we expected to have in our new life and kept searching until we found an area that ticked every box. It was frustrating because we kept finding places we really liked but then couldn't find the right property and we found houses we liked but in the wrong location. We found locations and houses on the web that sounded perfect but then, after extensive research, we discovered why property was so cheap: in one area because there were plans to build a waste incineration plant! Eventually, though, our patience paid off and we found what we were looking for and we have no regrets.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Like @Baldilocks we also moved straight into our home - no renting and, as a family, are extremely happy with our choice.
> 
> We are perhaps in the minority and my advice would always be to rent first - but that's not for everyone.


We too moved straight in several reasons

Could not afford to rent and then buy.

Lived down south in the UK if I had to move up north, I would not have thought, ooh must rent first in case I do not like it.

Renting is not for everyone
Buying is not for everyone

It is a personal decision


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> As I said if you know what you want and where to find it, the risk is minimal. However if €50k is only 10%, then you must be looking at Millionaires' Row and can afford a few thousand loss anyway.


I wish - but not by any means! In the area we want to live in (west Marbella) our money will only buy quite an average villa. And being pensioners on limited income and very little capital other than from the sale of our UK home, we have to be very cautious with our money - hence why we cannot afford the risk of buying the wrong place and having to move again (not only for financial reasons - with advancing age and retreating health, another move would probably be a bridge too far).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ianjames said:


> I wish - but not by any means! In the area we want to live in (west Marbella) our money will only buy quite an average villa. And being pensioners on limited income and very little capital other than from the sale of our UK home, we have to be very cautious with our money - hence why we cannot afford the risk of buying the wrong place and having to move again (not only for financial reasons - with advancing age and retreating health, another move would probably be a bridge too far).


We were the same. Hence a lot of research and careful planning. Our money would buy even less - a town house in a village in Jaén - €85k at the time (2007) but it suits us perfectly. It provides the right accommodation distributed how we (SWMBO, self and M-i-l) want it, enabling us to live freely without getting under each other's feet nor on each other's nerves. In an area we like - quiet village but with all facilities, and nice scenery (we all like mountains) nice warm and friendly neighbours, etc.

BTW as far as age is concerned- I am 75


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

For the poster who asked about negative Spanish comments - there are sadly many more
British expats could forfeit their rights to live in Spain if they vote to leave the EU, the Spanish prime minister has warned, saying forgoing free movement rights would be “negative for everyone”.

More than 400,000 British citizens live and work in Spain, while 100,000 Spanish citizens live in the UK, Mariano Rajoy said.

“I have no doubt whatsoever, as I have repeatedly stated, that it would be very negative if the United Kingdom left the European Union. Negative for everybody, for the United Kingdom, for Spain, and for the European Union,” Rajoy told Spanish news agency EFE.

“But, above all, it would be very negative for British citizens: the European Union is based, ever since its foundation, on the principles of freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capitals.”

EU referendum: Merkel says UK will lose out if it leaves EU - as it happened
Live coverage as prime minister faces Sky News Q&A, and opposition leader insists Labour is ‘overwhelmingly’ for In – but won’t share platform with Tories
Read more
UK citizens, he said, would forfeit crucial rights to live and work across the continent. “Leaving the European Union would mean that British citizens would lose their right to move freely, work and do business within the largest economic area, the largest market in the world,” he said.

“If the United Kingdom left the European Union, it would be very negative for everyone and from every perspective.”

British expats in Spain, many of them retired, have expressed concern about access to healthcare after a potential leave vote. UK citizens are entitled to healthcare via the European health insurance card or free health insurance from the Spanish government under EU law, but Spain would not be obliged to continue to offer free healthcare to non-EU citizens.

Rajoy’s comments came after the Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, warned that a pledge by Brexit campaigners’ to enact a points-based immigration system would mean British citizens would face similar barriers to travel and work in Europe. 
“It would be unavoidable, inevitable, for us and I think for many of us in Europe to follow the same proposals to implement a points system also in the rest of the European Union,” he told BBC News.

“So you would get a race to the bottom and that’s exactly what you don’t want.”

Leave campaigners have argued that new rights for British citizens to live and work in other EU countries could be negotiated after Brexit.

Mariano Rajoy, Prime Minister of Spain
"Spain will remain committed to the EU. The EU is the area of greatest prosperity and wellbeing; we will continue building a better future between us.
"We need stability. Above all we will continue defending Spaniards' interests and greater European integration.
"Spain now has a solid economic base in order to weather the financial turbulence which Brexit could cause. We are prepared."
Spain calls for joint control of Gibraltar -


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

ianjames said:


> I wish - but not by any means! In the area we want to live in (west Marbella) our money will only buy quite an average villa. And being pensioners on limited income and very little capital other than from the sale of our UK home, we have to be very cautious with our money - hence why we cannot afford the risk of buying the wrong place and having to move again (not only for financial reasons - with advancing age and retreating health, another move would probably be a bridge too far).


Rent - my friend we've been there and done that - lived in 6 EU countries bought and sold 5 houses in europe - excluding the homes we owned in the UK
12% buying +selling costs average - some countries much higher
those figures alone should Shout rent until you are certain of where you want to live
the political uncertainty should positively yell it.
buy a 500k house, 50k costs, make a mistake- 30% of Brits move or return home in the first 2 years - sell, 25k costs , buy another 500k , another 50k costs.
125k pays rent and living costs in spain for a very long time and you still have your original capital - sadly gone are the days when house price rises might have offset this.
We had a combination of good luck, good house choices and a lot of hard work and just about broke even on the costs over 15 years - i wouldn't like to risk it again.
Now especially in Spain and rural France selling houses is almost impossible, especially if you want to move quickly.
Rent, live long and prsoper
Wishing you good luck


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

steve01 said:


> For the poster who asked about negative Spanish comments - there are sadly many more
> British expats could forfeit their rights to live in Spain if they vote to leave the EU, the Spanish prime minister has warned, saying forgoing free movement rights would be “negative for everyone”.
> 
> More than 400,000 British citizens live and work in Spain, while 100,000 Spanish citizens live in the UK, Mariano Rajoy said.
> ...


You need to post this (it is highly relevant) on the Brexit thread - http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la...ndum-looking-towards-future.html#post11045858


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> You need to post this (it is highly relevant) on the Brexit thread - http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la...ndum-looking-towards-future.html#post11045858


hi, 
i give up with the brexit morons
they simply don't have the brain cells to receive information


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

steve01 said:


> Rent - my friend we've been there and done that - lived in 6 EU countries bought and sold 5 houses in europe - excluding the homes we owned in the UK
> 12% buying +selling costs average - some countries much higher
> those figures alone should Shout rent until you are certain of where you want to live
> the political uncertainty should positively yell it.
> ...


just a short addendum - if you must buy - buy where there is a vibrant local market - Barcelona or Valencia for example , then at least if it goes wrong you have a much better chance of selling


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> We were the same. Hence a lot of research and careful planning. Our money would buy even less - a town house in a village in Jaén - €85k at the time (2007) but it suits us perfectly. It provides the right accommodation distributed how we (SWMBO, self and M-i-l) want it, enabling us to live freely without getting under each other's feet nor on each other's nerves. In an area we like - quiet village but with all facilities, and nice scenery (we all like mountains) nice warm and friendly neighbours, etc.
> 
> BTW as far as age is concerned- I am 75


Ahh - we have left it rather later - our average age when we move will be 5 years older than you were in 2007 (and my SWMBO is nearly your age already!) I wish I could persuade her to live in a quiet village - but that's really a step too far from Kensington and Mayfair (in her case; not mine!) and we would be spending vastly less than is required to live in a fashionable resort! However, we are looking forward to enjoying the end of our days in the sunshine!http://www.expatforum.com/expats/images/smilies/smile.gif


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

steve01 said:


> Rent - my friend


Thank you for the advice Steve, but we do not really see long-term rental as an option (whether in Spain or anywhere else). To rent the sort of villa we want (and can afford to buy) would cost around €50,000 per annum - so all of our capital (apart from that we need to provide our pensions) would be gone in under 10 years. Also - we are elderly pensioners; my wife has chronic arthritis (part of our reason for moving to a warm climate); and we could not face the possibility of having our rental agreement terminated and having to move again in a short period of time. We will have to do it once; in order to ensure we have chosen the right area; but we are determined that will be our last home move before the one to the crematorium!


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

steve01 said:


> just a short addendum - if you must buy - buy where there is a vibrant local market - Barcelona or Valencia for example , then at least if it goes wrong you have a much better chance of selling


Yes, that's probably sound advice from a purely financial viewpoint. 
The area we are buying in appears to have a very vibrant market - indeed it seems to be one of the few areas of Spain where there is a substantial amount of new property development now underway (albeit mainly in the luxury apartments or top-end villas markets). As yet, prices (of the type of property we're looking at - classical mid-range villas) haven't started to rise and we are still seeing some occasional big price cuts to sell (where they have obviously been originally placed far too high); but all the signs are that the bottom has been reached and that many property types are now experiencing good demand and are selling quite quickly. 
The choice of area is probably the most important thing to us - we have looked at Barcelona and Valencia (among numerous other places in Spain and other countries) but they just don't suit us or provide the lifestyle that we're looking for.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

ianjames said:


> Agreed, but in 5 years of research, you are probably the first person to advocate taking that risk! I'm glad it worked for you. For us, the cost of rent and storage probably amounts to less than 2% of the price we'll be paying for our villa - and that's an insurance premium I'm very happy to pay! Also, advice from estate agents is that, once we get known as residents in an area and get to know our way around, the chances are we'll be able to purchase at around 10% less than we may have done if we jumped straight in. That's a potential €50,000 saving in our case. Of course, property prices could suddenly rocket - but current market intelligence is that purchases by Brits have fallen through the floor and that has caused the market to stall even more than usual - so that doesn't seem too much of a risk right now. Life is always a gamble!


Baldilocks is certainly not the only one, because we too bought our house without having rented first, 13.5 years ago, and are still very happy with our choice. As he said, careful research and sensible planning with a view to the long term future (access to amenities, etc and good health care) is vital.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

steve01 said:


> hi,
> i give up with the brexit morons
> they simply don't have the brain cells to receive information


Please be careful with such comments - they won't be tolerated for long.

I voted leave and believe myself to be fairly well educated (having degree and PhD). 

I agree that this particular thread (Brexit) is particularly controversial and I won't allow this one to go the same way!


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Please be careful with such comments - they won't be tolerated for long.
> 
> I voted leave and believe myself to be fairly well educated (having degree and PhD).
> 
> I agree that this particular thread (Brexit) is particularly controversial and I won't allow this one to go the same way!


Apologies another user raised the topic and i replied in public, perhaps should have been private - i'm sure there are a tiny minority of Brexit voters who don't match my comment including you


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

ianjames said:


> Thank you for the advice Steve, but we do not really see long-term rental as an option (whether in Spain or anywhere else). To rent the sort of villa we want (and can afford to buy) would cost around €50,000 per annum - so all of our capital (apart from that we need to provide our pensions) would be gone in under 10 years. Also - we are elderly pensioners; my wife has chronic arthritis (part of our reason for moving to a warm climate); and we could not face the possibility of having our rental agreement terminated and having to move again in a short period of time. We will have to do it once; in order to ensure we have chosen the right area; but we are determined that will be our last home move before the one to the crematorium!


wow - i lived in Nerja, but now live in Portugal
i would love to see what you can rent for 50k p.a
my amigo in Lisbon rents a 4 bed 4 bath, private swimming pool, 4 reception, full home theatre penthouse overlooking the river and best part of the city for 30k p.a - like something from hollywood.
Is Spain really so expensive ?
Here in the Algarve 1500 per month will rent you something very nice


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Just an aside regarding finances.
A concern for all UK expats is medical costs, or at least could be
At the moment for retirees in the EU from the UK its not an issue
Post Brexit it might be.
We're not rich, but comfortable - we have private medical cover as well as UK state cover.
Own our own homes, have no debt and some savings.
However, my wife has a rare cancer- we discovered that the private medical doesn't cover this - only some aspects, but not the main treatments - this is true of most european medical insurance and major illnesses.
So the state UK or in my case Portugal pick up the bill.
the treatment cost is over 125k p.a - yes 125k p.a - surprisingly not unusual costs for rare illnesses or sudden traumas - major heart problems etc.
So if Brexit takes away health cover - this is the real risk for all expats 
I thought we were ok financially for our retirement , but 125k + hospital and doctor costs p.a would rapidly destroy our financial stability


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

steve01 said:


> Just an aside regarding finances.
> A concern for all UK expats is medical costs, or at least could be
> At the moment for retirees in the EU from the UK its not an issue
> Post Brexit it might be.
> ...


Ouch! I think it would for most of us.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I do mean it, & I have thought it through
> 
> 
> OK - it would be noticed. I give you that. But in the grand scheme of things it's not much.
> ...


Quite aside from the fact that many Brits in the EU purchase from the UK when practicable/cheaper to do so. And in France there are apparently UK delivery vans doing regular grocery deliveries in some areas (I don't know that to be a fact, but it's quite frequently mentioned on the France Forum). But certainly it does seem that many British members of the France Forum purchase quite a bit from the UK (not just groceries) and that UK businesses deliver direct to their homes from the UK. That sort of thing doesn't support the economy of the host country.

Then there are the holiday homes that are not occupied for many months of the year and thus only contribute to the local economy via property taxes plus TVA paid by those who holiday in them (but that can be achieved otherwise). Add into the mix the potential increase affordability of property if significant numbers of Brits left. Oh, and of course, there are now lots of Russians moving to Spain (not being EU citizens make little or no difference to that market) - so expect that sort of new resident to start moving further south.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Quite aside from the fact that many Brits in the EU purchase from the UK when practicable/cheaper to do so. And in France there are apparently UK delivery vans doing regular grocery deliveries in some areas (I don't know that to be a fact, but it's quite frequently mentioned on the France Forum). But certainly it does seem that many British members of the France Forum purchase quite a bit from the UK (not just groceries) and that UK businesses deliver direct to their homes from the UK. That sort of thing doesn't support the economy of the host country.
> 
> Then there are the holiday homes that are not occupied for many months of the year and thus only contribute to the local economy via property taxes plus TVA paid by those who holiday in them (but that can be achieved otherwise). Add into the mix the potential increase affordability of property if significant numbers of Brits left. Oh, and of course, there are now lots of Russians moving to Spain (not being EU citizens make little or no difference to that market) - so expect that sort of new resident to start moving further south.


So what you are saying is that the Chunnel/Ferries will take a hit not having all those delivery vans channel-hopping. Sounds like a good idea to get rid of investments in those businesses. :washing:


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> So what you are saying is that the Chunnel/Ferries will take a hit not having all those delivery vans channel-hopping. Sounds like a good idea to get rid of investments in those businesses. :washing:


the problem with Brexit is that no one knows
Sadly no plans, no timescales, no leadership and no concrete ideas
A huge problem not only for the van companies , but for everyone living in , working in trading with , or trying to plan for an EU future 
Certainly a potential nightmare for all Brit expats and EU expats in the UK
Diabolical that it should have even been discussed without a set of concrete plans
A referenDIM indeed


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Ouch! I think it would for most of us.


Cost aside, the problem in both Portugal and Spain is that if you incur a civic debt - debt to the government, a bank, or the medical system , even a 1 euro debt they can and do take all of your assets, auction them off in closed auctions asap to recover the debt and leave you to sort out the mess afterwards


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> So what you are saying is that the Chunnel/Ferries will take a hit not having all those delivery vans channel-hopping. Sounds like a good idea to get rid of investments in those businesses. :washing:


Not at all. What I was getting at is that some from the UK have an inflated view of their contribution to the economy of their adopted country.

Clearly, there will be many Brits who remain in the EU however the exit negotiations go; British tourism to Spain and France will continue (although it could be reduced if exchange rates are unfavourable).

Heck, it's not as if all those from the UK who are resident in the EU will suddenly up and leave


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Not at all. What I was getting at is that some from the UK have an inflated view of their contribution to the economy of their adopted country.
> 
> Clearly, there will be many Brits who remain in the EU however the exit negotiations go; British tourism to Spain and France will continue (although it could be reduced if exchange rates are unfavourable).
> 
> Heck, it's not as if all those from the UK who are resident in the EU will suddenly up and leave


A common misconception - its the same here in Portugal
Only 17k Brits in total live here -population 11 million
We are always saying end of the world, portugal is doomed if we leave etc.
even in the algarve , 13k brits 350k population - a tiny minority
Of course there would be an impact, but i suspect quickly resolved by the local population.
The evidence i see both in Portugal and when i lived in Spain was that a large percentage of the money spent was Brit to Brit, bars, restaurants builders etc
self supporting, so even less likely to impact on the host country
Imagine if all the British pubs, all day breakfasts etc disappeared from the Costa's - great new opportunities for the Spanish who certainly need the employment


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

cambio said:


> We too moved straight in several reasons
> 
> Could not afford to rent and then buy.
> 
> ...


Not sure whether it's still true today but doesn't the Spanish tax office waive CGT, on the money you made 
from your house in the UK, provided you buy your house in Spain on the proceeds of the British sale within
a year of moving to Spain ?

Obviously there will be pressing tax advantages to buying more or less straight away rather than renting, if that's
the case ?


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Not at all. What I was getting at is that some from the UK have an inflated view of their contribution to the economy of their adopted country.
> 
> Clearly, there will be many Brits who remain in the EU however the exit negotiations go; British tourism to Spain and France will continue (although it could be reduced if exchange rates are unfavourable).
> 
> Heck, it's not as if all those from the UK who are resident in the EU will suddenly up and leave


Sadly the issue would be caused by the very unstable Mrs May - a totally failed home secretary, a total economics non starter, a truly awful politician who leads with her mouth, the brain never seeming to catch up
Brexit means Brexit - but no-one knows what the first or second brexit in the sentence means.
The problem would be if the crazy Mrs May decides it means all EU people out - more or less what the brexit faithful want - inevitable tit for tat
Or failing that the non-eu immigrant rules apply to us - for example here in Spain , how many Brits do you know with 31k+ p.a income, a healthy bank balance and private medical insurance, also no blemish on their record, not even a letter from the council, a late payment or a late reply to an official letter
My hands up, so for me it would be bye bye - how many more would no longer be welcome ?


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

steve01 said:


> Sadly the issue would be caused by the very unstable Mrs May - a totally failed home secretary, a total economics non starter, a truly awful politician who leads with her mouth, the brain never seeming to catch up
> Brexit means Brexit - but no-one knows what the first or second brexit in the sentence means.
> The problem would be if the crazy Mrs May decides it means all EU people out - more or less what the brexit faithful want - inevitable tit for tat
> Or failing that the non-eu immigrant rules apply to us - for example here in Spain , *how many Brits do you know with 31k+ p.a income*, a healthy bank balance and private medical insurance, also no blemish on their record, not even a letter from the council, a late payment or a late reply to an official letter
> My hands up, so for me it would be bye bye - how many more would no longer be welcome ?


Well I'm sure most retired British Pensioners resident in Spain would fall foul of that rule, if it was applied to them.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> Not sure whether it's still true today but doesn't the Spanish tax office waive CGT, on the money you made
> from your house in the UK, provided you buy your house in Spain on the proceeds of the British sale within
> a year of moving to Spain ?
> 
> ...


If you sell a house in an EU member state and reinvest the funds in the purchase of a property in another EU member state within two years, there is no CGT to pay.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> If you sell a house in an EU member state and reinvest the funds in the purchase of a property in another EU member state within two years, there is no CGT to pay.


There you go - you see. Just think of all those hundreds of British people who are coming up for retirement and hoping
to move to Spain.
Naturally following the day the UK finally leaves the EU - they will not only be faced with the daunting prospect
as to whether or not the retired couple will meet the required minimum income levels, savings and private medical
insurance required to reside in Spain but the Spanish tax office could be applying the full CGT charge on the proceeds
of the sale ( from their former home in the UK ) as they would be coming from a Non EU state.

So forget Andalusia & the Costa del Sol - we will have to limit our horizons to Bournemouth from now on !!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> ?.. the Spanish tax office could be applying the full CGT charge on the proceeds of the sale ( from their former home in the UK ) as they would be coming from a Non EU state.
> 
> So forget Andalusia & the Costa del Sol - we will have to limit our horizons to Bournemouth from now on !!


So what is the full rate of CGT then? 24% for non EU residents? Given that you can buy a decent house in Andalusia for less than a third of the cost of one in Bournemouth, you might still be better off even after paying the tax.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> If you sell a house in an EU member state and reinvest the funds in the purchase of a property in another EU member state within two years, there is no CGT to pay.


yes , but if we are no longer EU - remember Brexit !
then we all pay tax at the non eu rates - 50% in Portugal on all profit for foreigners even if you return to the UK(post UK leaving ) and buy a house for the price received


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

steve01 said:


> yes , but if we are no longer EU - remember Brexit !
> then we all pay tax at the non eu rates - 50% in Portugal on all profit for foreigners even if you return to the UK(post UK leaving ) and buy a house for the price received


As a Uk expat If you live in Spain at the moment and are old enough to have bought a house in the dim distant past , so you have made a profit, you can buy another house in Spain or anywhere in the Eu for the same or more and pay zero tax.
Post Brexit , when we actually leave - there will be no exemption from capital gains, as there isn't for non eu foreigners at the moment - regardless of if or where you buy another home, even if in Spain - unless the nice Brexit people ask for a special deal for all of us expats (commonly known as traitors, deserters, we hope you die, we hate you, etc etc, by the Brexit faithful on most websites) 
What are the odds 
So for example , you bought your house 25 years ago 50k - decide to return to the UK post brexit leaving - house now worth 250k - buy a house in the UK 250k ,, seems ok , Spanish CGT to pay on 200k - approx 100k tax ,, oh dear ,, i know its not exactly that simple , but thats the gist of it
Non EU, no tax or reinvestment allowances - thanks Brexit


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

steve01 said:


> yes , but if we are no longer EU - remember Brexit !
> then we all pay tax at the non eu rates - 50% in Portugal on all profit for foreigners even if you return to the UK(post UK leaving ) and buy a house for the price received


That was kind of the point I was making, but didn't wish to be reprimanded for bringing Brexit into the thread. Subtle, see?


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

A while ago, but can't recall where, I read about a health scheme that's being rolled out throughout Spain, whereby non-Spanish citizens can pay an amount (I recall it was around €120/month for an individual) to "buy-in" to Spanish NHS; and that it does not exclude existing conditions. At the time I read it, the scheme appeared to have commenced implementation in the more northern provinces and was gradually moving south but had not yet reached areas we were considering (at that time, Murcia or Malaga). Does anyone know anything about this scheme and where information on its current status can be found?


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

ianjames said:


> A while ago, but can't recall where, I read about a health scheme that's being rolled out throughout Spain, whereby non-Spanish citizens can pay an amount (I recall it was around €120/month for an individual) to "buy-in" to Spanish NHS; and that it does not exclude existing conditions. At the time I read it, the scheme appeared to have commenced implementation in the more northern provinces and was gradually moving south but had not yet reached areas we were considering (at that time, Murcia or Malaga). Does anyone know anything about this scheme and where information on its current status can be found?


i found this on another website

There is also a scheme where you can subscribe to the Spanish Health service by paying €60 a month (per person) if you are under 65. Over 65 it goes upto about €160, but by this time you may ( or may not, depending on your age) qualify for an S1 through a state pension. This may be about the same cost as your private care,but it covers you for pre existing, which can be important.

It's been in place for about 9 months, and is a national scheme, but being implemented regionally. Some regions have been slow, and I think Andalucua may be one if them. It was introduced in Valencia about 7 months ago. The only criteria (besides paying ) is that you can only join once you have been registered (Registro de Cuidadnos etc- the green certificate) for a year. The scheme is called "Convenio Especiale"

This is a link to some information.
Seguridad Social: Error ... 6/177501_6

It's under this heading towards the bottom

Special agreement on the provision of medical assistance to individuals who do not have insured or SNS beneficiary status:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ianjames said:


> A while ago, but can't recall where, I read about a health scheme that's being rolled out throughout Spain, whereby non-Spanish citizens can pay an amount (I recall it was around €120/month for an individual) to "buy-in" to Spanish NHS; and that it does not exclude existing conditions. At the time I read it, the scheme appeared to have commenced implementation in the more northern provinces and was gradually moving south but had not yet reached areas we were considering (at that time, Murcia or Malaga). Does anyone know anything about this scheme and where information on its current status can be found?


It's known as the _convenio especial _

Availability is patchy across the country. The only 'catch' though is that you only qualify if you've been a registered resident for 12 months. And to become a registered resident you have to have private healthcare if you aren't working or have an S1. 

THE CONVENIO ESPECIAL â€˜Buy inâ€™ to state healthcare in Spain. | Learn-Aprender


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

steve01 said:


> i found this on another website
> the previous link doesn't work
> Special agreement for Spanish healthcare: Convenio Especial
> 
> ...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> It's known as the _convenio especial _
> 
> Availability is patchy across the country. The only 'catch' though is that you only qualify if you've been a registered resident for 12 months. And to become a registered resident you have to have private healthcare if you aren't working or have an S1.
> 
> THE CONVENIO ESPECIAL ‘Buy in’ to state healthcare in Spain. | Learn-Aprender


... isn't another 'catch' that you have to pay the full cost of any prescription?


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

steve01 said:


> The scheme is called "Convenio Especiale"
> 
> This is a link to some information.
> Seguridad Social: Error ... 6/177501_6


That looks like the item I found and, as with this one, the link was broken so I couldn't find the specific page. Googling "convenio especial seguridad social" brings up hundreds of different links to the relevant government website - and I've scanned through translations of several of them, but can't find the reference to "Special agreement on the provision of medical assistance to individuals who do not have insured or SNS beneficiary status" - or to anything that says the scheme will apply to expats. Most of the terms in respect of eleigibility refer to "workers" and indicate that a significant amount of fully-paid contributions must have been made to qualify. 
I'll keep searching.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> ... isn't another 'catch' that you have to pay the full cost of any prescription?


i read that, also many other incidental costs , transport to hospital, ambulance costs etc - i'm afraid my spanish wasn't up to translating the rest


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> to become a registered resident you have to have private healthcare if you aren't working or have an S1


That doesn't seem to tie up with previous information we've been given - which is that, in effect, you have no choice but to become resident (at least for income tax purposes) if you stay in Spain for more than 6 months (or is that how you get an "S1"?)


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

steve01 said:


> i'm afraid my spanish wasn't up to translating the rest


I've discovered that, if you can find the page you want via Google search (instead of clicking on a direct link) then Google gives you a "Translate this page" option - brilliant for people like me with minimal current knowledge of Spanish! The trick is to put the direct link in the search box instead of the URL box.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> ... isn't another 'catch' that you have to pay the full cost of any prescription?


Yes you do have to pay full cost for medications



steve01 said:


> i read that, also many other incidental costs , transport to hospital, ambulance costs etc - i'm afraid my spanish wasn't up to translating the rest


but no - not for transport to hospital nor ambulances


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ianjames said:


> That doesn't seem to tie up with previous information we've been given - which is that, in effect, you have no choice but to become resident (at least for income tax purposes) if you stay in Spain for more than 6 months (or is that how you get an "S1"?)


One document you need to produce when applying for the convenio especial, is the green card/cert which is issued when you register as an EU resident living in Spain. It will have to be dated more than 12 months prior to your application. 

That, & only that, is accepted by the govt as proof that you are legally resident in Spain.

In order to register you have to prove that you can financially support yourself & that you have healthcare provision. 

In order to prove healthcare provision you will need to be either employed on a contract or working & paying SS contributions as self-employed/autónomo, have an S1 which means that the EU country from whence you came picks up your healthcare bill, or have private healthcare insurance.

Clearly in the first two cases you wouldn't need to join the convenio especial, so you would need private healthcare for the first year


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

The convenio especial definitely IS available throughout Andalucia, and has been since 2014, so has been around rather longer than a few months.

In addition to having been officially resident for at least one year (as has already been pointed out), in order to qualify you also need to be empadronado (registered as a local resident with your Town Hall) and be able to prove that you do not have access to healthcare paid for by your home country. That would involve getting what usually referred to as the "legislation letter" from the DWP in the UK, in the same way that people who were officially registered as residents in Spain before 2012 have to in order to register for free state healthcare in Spain.


http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/serv...Asistencia Sanitaria. 31-10-2014 (488 kb).pdf


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> be able to prove that you do not have access to healthcare paid for by your home country


Do you think that I would therefore be right in assuming, as pensioners, that under current agreements (whereby UK pensioners resident in Spain have the costs of their healthcare funded by the UK NHS), we would not require (nor be able to apply for) the convenio - but that we may need to do so at some time in the future if that agreement falls after the UK leaves the EU?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

ianjames said:


> Do you think that I would therefore be right in assuming, as pensioners, that under current agreements (whereby UK pensioners resident in Spain have the costs of their healthcare funded by the UK NHS), we would not require (nor be able to apply for) the convenio - but that we may need to do so at some time in the future if that agreement falls after the UK leaves the EU?


Yes, that's right. It obviously wouldn't be as good as the present arrangement if the UK Government did decide to stop paying for pensioners´healthcare (which they may not do, of course) because under the convenio especial a pensioner couple would have to pay €314 per month plus the full cost of all medications. However, it would be helpful for anyone who could afford to fund that but who would find it difficult if not impossible to get private health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

My husband and I decided we would keep our existing private health insurance on (we took it out before either of us had any medical conditions) after he became a UK state pensioner and we were both able to register for Spanish state healthcare with S1 forms. It means that we are now paying €120 per month to cover both of us (although he is over 65, but our company doesn't increase premiums when a policyholder reaches that age) and are not so worried about the possibiity that the state healthcare might at some point be withdrawn.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, that's right. It obviously wouldn't be as good as the present arrangement if the UK Government did decide to stop paying for pensioners´healthcare (which they may not do, of course) because under the convenio especial a pensioner couple would have to pay €314 per month plus the full cost of all medications. However, it would be helpful for anyone who could afford to fund that but who would find it difficult if not impossible to get private health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.
> 
> My husband and I decided we would keep our existing private health insurance on (we took it out before either of us had any medical conditions) after he became a UK state pensioner and we were both able to register for Spanish state healthcare with S1 forms. It means that we are now paying €120 per month to cover both of us (although he is over 65, but our company doesn't increase premiums when a policyholder reaches that age) and are not so worried about the possibiity that the state healthcare might at some point be withdrawn.


The problem is - as we found out - that very few private health insurances cover you for treatment for major illnesses- 
For example most cover you for the initial investigations, scans, blood tests etc for heart problems and Cancer, but almost none cover you for the actual treatment.
In my wifes case with a rare Cancer , chemo costing around 125k per treatment cycle
At the moment the EU country you reside in either pay, or send the bill to the UK, depending on your circumstances and original country of origin.
If that option disappears with Brexit anyone becoming seriously ill - Cancer affects 1 in 3 , heart problems , slightly more, and many other terrible illnesses.
The problem is for any expat, especially non working expats is that if the UK will not accept the bill , then who pays 
realistically how many expats could pay 125k or more p.a and survive for long- probably only a handful
So the Brexit question is what about the rest of us , pensioners, early retirees, and people who become unemployed


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

steve01 said:


> The problem is - as we found out - that very few private health insurances cover you for treatment for major illnesses-
> For example most cover you for the initial investigations, scans, blood tests etc for heart problems and Cancer, but almost none cover you for the actual treatment.
> In my wifes case with a rare Cancer , chemo costing around 125k per treatment cycle
> At the moment the EU country you reside in either pay, or send the bill to the UK, depending on your circumstances and original country of origin.
> ...


Our private health insurance does cover chemotherapy and radiotherapy. I know one of our members, Madliz, has often posted about the treatment her late husband received for cancer whilst insured with Sanitas (a different company to the one who we are with) and has never mentioned that the cover was restricted in any way.

I now have heart problems myself and at some point in the future I will need valve replacement surgery - which will be covered.

Of course very few people could assume the cost of healthcare costing 125k per annum. In a way, that illustrates why the NHS is in the trouble it's in at the moment. Some treatments which wouldn't have been available just a few years ago are eye-wateringly expensive and of course, once they do become available patients and their loved ones want the best treatment. Not the only reason for the financial problems of the NHS, of course, but certainly one of them. They often say they've paid in all their working lives, but not many people will have paid in 125k in NI contributions (not counting the cost of other healthcare they may have received over the years).


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Our private health insurance does cover chemotherapy and radiotherapy. I know one of our members, Madliz, has often posted about the treatment her late husband received for cancer whilst insured with Sanitas (a different company to the one who we are with) and has never mentioned that the cover was restricted in any way.
> 
> I now have heart problems myself and at some point in the future I will need valve replacement surgery - which will be covered.
> 
> Of course very few people could assume the cost of healthcare costing 125k per annum. In a way, that illustrates why the NHS is in the trouble it's in at the moment. Some treatments which wouldn't have been available just a few years ago are eye-wateringly expensive and of course, once they do become available patients and their loved ones want the best treatment. Not the only reason for the financial problems of the NHS, of course, but certainly one of them. They often say they've paid in all their working lives, but not many people will have paid in 125k in NI contributions (not counting the cost of other healthcare they may have received over the years).


Your healthcare cover sounds excellent
i think finding equal cover today at a realistic price could be difficult, especially for older people.
But private or public is the same principle - many people pay in to support the ones who need the treatment and we all spend our lives hoping it isn't us.
I've never had any treatment of any kind , since i was a child, my wife sadly the exact opposite.
We've made a joint total of over 90 years worth of NHS public and laterally private contributions over our lifetime - the Brexit problem could be that in spite of that , and in spite of the fact moving to the EU was an entirely legal choice when we made the decision we and many others like us might find ourselves both without and unable to get or afford cover - The unacceptable face of the Brexit situation


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

steve01 said:


> Your healthcare cover sounds excellent
> i think finding equal cover today at a realistic price could be difficult, especially for older people.
> But private or public is the same principle - many people pay in to support the ones who need the treatment and we all spend our lives hoping it isn't us.
> I've never had any treatment of any kind , since i was a child, my wife sadly the exact opposite.
> We've made a joint total of over 90 years worth of NHS public and laterally private contributions over our lifetime - the Brexit problem could be that in spite of that , and in spite of the fact moving to the EU was an entirely legal choice when we made the decision we and many others like us might find ourselves both without and unable to get or afford cover - The unacceptable face of the Brexit situation


The same cover we have is available today to new customers for €48 per person per month - but only to those aged under 65 and without pre-existing conditions. That's why we weren't willing to take the risk of cancelling our present cover to save about €1,500 per year if there was a risk we wouldn't be able to get new cover if we found we needed it in the future.

Once you pass retirement age or have developed any kind of pre-existing conditions it is always much more difficult to find an insurance company which will cover you, and if they will it is far more expensive.

You are preaching to the converted as far as I am concerned about the possible effects of Brexit on this situation, but lots of the folks back in the UK (and from what I have read, a proportion of British people already living in the EU who voted Leave) just don't care, it's not important to them.

How much does the UK Government currently pay to Portugal for the healthcare of each British pensioner resident there? In Spain, that amount is currently just under €3k per pensioner per annum. If some of them are receiving treatment costing €125k per year, that's a very big shortfall which the Spanish health service and their contributors are making up. I paid in lots of NI over the years, but all of it was to Britain and I never contributed a cent in social security to Spain (although I do pay income tax here).


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Lynne - i actually find your statement that treatment as per that given to my wife is the reason the NHS is in trouble greatly offensive.
My wife has previously been given several less expensive treatments , and i really wouldn't wish Chemotherapy of any kind on my worst enemy, sadly they didn't work and that is why they are trialling the current treatment.
All drug costs go through this cycle - initial trials and limited applications , are always very expensive - this is necessary to support the investment made by the scientists, doctors and drug companies.
If this didn't happen, drugs giving common treatments for mass application would never happen
This is true across the board - the first open heart surgery by Dr Barnard - the end results of which may benefit you cost the equivalent of over 5 million in its day.
The NHS has many issues, the overpopulation of the UK, under funding, too much reliance of third world and contract staff, too much bureaucracy, tired old buildings, too many regulations etc 
i could probably write a 10,000 word thesis on it and not even break the ice,


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

steve01 said:


> Lynne - i actually find your statement that treatment as per that given to my wife is the reason the NHS is in trouble greatly offensive.
> My wife has previously been given several less expensive treatments , and i really wouldn't wish Chemotherapy of any kind on my worst enemy, sadly they didn't work and that is why they are trialling the current treatment.
> All drug costs go through this cycle - initial trials and limited applications , are always very expensive - this is necessary to support the investment made by the scientists, doctors and drug companies.
> If this didn't happen, drugs giving common treatments for mass application would never happen
> ...


I certainly didn't intend any offence, and your wife's situation must be extremely harowing. I did say that hugely expensive treatments were only ONE reason for the NHS's financial woes, and you are right that there are many others. However, we cannot ignore that some of these treatments do cost an enormous amount of money and I did not mean to suggest that they should not be funded, but rather that people need to realise that the amounts they are currently paying in tax and NI are just not enough to sustain them and if (as they naturally will) they want the very best available for themsevles and their loved ones, then they must be prepared to increase what they pay.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

the point i was making really was that there is a very appreciable risk to all Brits living in the EU
In spite of the fact that all of us did a completely legal thing at the time, and in fact still legal today - in this case taking advantage of the reciprocal agreement to supply healthcare across the countries in the EU, either temporally via EHIC for travel or permanently via legal permanent residency .
This has not been given any consideration by the UK government of the day and gives every single UK person living in the EU a very appreciable risk.
Is it fair Portugal or the UK pay for my wifes treatment ?
Is it fair that anyone's treatment is paid for ?
You may as well ask the question is it fair for a foreigner to breathe the air, drink the water or eat the food in a foreign country - it is fair because that is the legally binding agreement
Selectively deciding people will die based on cost is certainly a Brexit ideology world i never want to live in.


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> In order to prove healthcare provision you will need to be either employed on a contract or working & paying SS contributions as self-employed/autónomo, have an S1 which means that the EU country from whence you came picks up your healthcare bill, or have private healthcare insurance.


That seems straightforward enough - but although the relevant UK government website specifies quite clearly that UK citizens in receipt of UK pensions will have their healthcare paid for in Spain, it doesn't mention anything about an S1. Would that be issued in Spain at the same time as obtaining the residency certificate (and can the latter be requested immediately; or only after 6 months)?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ianjames said:


> That seems straightforward enough - but although the relevant UK government website specifies quite clearly that UK citizens in receipt of UK pensions will have their healthcare paid for in Spain, it doesn't mention anything about an S1. Would that be issued in Spain at the same time as obtaining the residency certificate (and can the latter be requested immediately; or only after 6 months)?


You get the S1 from the DWP in Newcastle & have it sent to your address in Spain. It is this form which tells Spain that the UK is funding your healthcare. If you have dependants you will need to ask for S1s for them too. 

Request it immediately, or even just before you leave the UK. You need it when you register as resident & you are required to do that within 90 days of your arrival.

The 6 months you keep mentioning is tax residency, which is a totally different issue.


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## ianjames (Jul 8, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> You get the S1 from the DWP in Newcastle & have it sent to your address in Spain. It is this form which tells Spain that the UK is funding your healthcare. If you have dependants you will need to ask for S1s for them too.
> 
> Request it immediately, or even just before you leave the UK. You need it when you register as resident & you are required to do that within 90 days of your arrival.
> 
> The 6 months you keep mentioning is tax residency, which is a totally different issue.


Thank you. There's so much to learn (despite having been researching this, overall, for more than 3 years!).:shocked:


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