# Options for selling property in need of renovation?



## AJ584

I’m technically not an expat, but hoped someone here may be able to help. I unexpectedly inherited a property in the Meuse region of France a few years ago, but the property is in need of restoration and currently uninhabitable.

I’m a UK resident but have no links to the area, except with the local notary, but they’ve been unhelpful with trying to sell the property. Regrettably I also cannot speak French. I’ve contacted a few online estate agents, but none have had agents in the local area.

I’m looking for other options to sell, including whether there are any kinds of online property auctions? Getting to the property is 12 hours each way, so would like to try and minimise the amount of travel involved in any viewings or sale. I’m also more interested in getting the property sold quickly than making a substantial profit on it, as the longer it takes the more it’s condition deteriorates and more money it’s costing me on local taxes.

Would any of you have suggestions to help me sell? Thank you in advance


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## BackinFrance

Could you not just refuse the inheritance, which would mean everything you inherit would either go to other heirs or the state?


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## AJ584

BackinFrance said:


> Could you not just refuse the inheritance, which would mean everything you inherit would either go to other heirs or the state?


Thank you for the suggestion! With hindsight, and if I'd known that was an option at the time, I would have done that. But I'd naively I didn't realise / think it through and have since signed all the documents etc... so the property is in my name so no longer an option.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Years ago, my sister and her husband bought a small house in a village to renovate - only cost them about 4k. However, within months, they split up and then divorced, so the house was left empty and decaying. Eventually, after several "invitations" to do something about the house, the local Mairie retook possession of the property.


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## BackinFrance

Perhaps offer it to the Mairie?


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## Befuddled

We tried that with a house in the Charente. The Mairie wasn't interested.
We can't get rid of the place. It is slowly losing its roof so is deteriorating but we are still legally bound to pay the fonciere tax and keep it insured for third party risks. 
Bummer.


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## BackinFrance

In some communes they will take on a property in need of renovation, subject to how run down the property is, to use them as shops, for health services, or to offer as homes for those who are willing to do the renovation but can't afford the purchase.


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## AJ584

Befuddled said:


> We tried that with a house in the Charente. The Mairie wasn't interested.
> We can't get rid of the place. It is slowly losing its roof so is deteriorating but we are still legally bound to pay the fonciere tax and keep it insured for third party risks.
> Bummer.


This is the situation I'm worried about being in long term, writing off 1000+ each year to bills. Although, I don't believe there is any insurance in place for the property right now, is 3rd party mandatory?

But thank you for all the suggestions, I wasn't aware of the Mairie doing that in some communes so that gives me another avenue to pursue.

On paper they valued the property at €150k on succession, although it was bought for €40k 20+ years ago, and spent at least half that time deteriorating, so that evaluation is grossly over estimated and doubt it's worth a fraction of that, but still hopefully of enough value they may be interested.


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## Clic Clac

AJ584 said:


> I’m a UK resident but have no links to the area, except with the local notary, but they’ve been unhelpful with trying to sell the property.


Notaires are cheap for a reason.
The one xM instructed would arrive at the house, shake hands with the Viewers, then wait outside talking on his phone until they all departed.

She finally instructed an agent who was 'hungry' and it sold in a week.

Search for 'immobilières' under your post code. 




Befuddled said:


> We can't get rid of the place. It is slowly losing its roof so is deteriorating but we are still legally bound to pay the fonciere tax and keep it insured for third party risks.
> Bummer.


There must be a legal 'point' where a new build becomes a house, and a ruin ceases to be a house, short of demolition.

We have both in the village.

A new 'house' has not progressed in the 4 years I've been here.
Four walls and a roof, doors and lower windows, but no upstairs windows or exterior rendering.

Four or five are the other way with collapsed rooves and tumbling walls.

Can't you just 'help it along'?


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## Befuddled

Apart from the leaking roof it would take quite a bit of aggression with a JCB to help it along. It old and substantial. We were living in it until just a few years ago but couldn't afford to deal with various maintenance problems. Selling it at any price was not possible because of "succession" legalities so with all the ongoing things we couldn't fix it was easier to just have all the utilities disconnected and walk away from it. At one point it was also valued at €150k.


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## eairicbloodaxe

All property will sell... you just need to find the right price (and the right buyer). That requires a bit of marketing!

Examples:

I can't believe there are no local estate agents. The Remax network claims to be biggest in France, surely they must have a branch covering the area. Or google "house for sale meuse" and see who the other local properties are listed with. If you do it in English, you're likely to find one that might speak English a bit.

List it on ebay starting bid 10,000 euro - buyer to pay transfer costs on top.

List it on Le Bon Coin the same.

Send a letter to any neighbours asking if they want it. (Google translate will sort out the text for you, find thr addresses via google street view).

Most towns/regions now have a local facebook group. Join it, and offer the property on there free or low priced to help a local young couple get a start in life.

Sometimes you just need to hustle a bit to get things moving. If the sale proceeds don't matter much, it makes things easier.


Kind regards


Ian


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## ccm47

You could try selling it as a vente volontaire aux enchères i.e. send it to auction via a huissier (bailiff). There seem to be a few in the Meuse. That way you, and the authorities, get a true market value within a few months.


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## tjj

I'm not a legal professional but am aware that in France there are some considerably different laws than in the UK. Previous posts have indicated that you could have refused the inheritance but omitted to say why. Not only do you inherit assets in France, you also inherit debts if you choose to accept the inheritance. My father-in-law for example spent 25 years paying off a debt left to him by his wife's family. Now you are the legal owner of a French property you may be responsible for maintaining it, and certainly liable for financial taxes. Selling it of course is the obvious option but whoever buys it will then be responsible. Not a great incentive to buy is it?


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## Lalla

AJ584 said:


> I’m technically not an expat, but hoped someone here may be able to help. I unexpectedly inherited a property in the Meuse region of France a few years ago, but the property is in need of restoration and currently uninhabitable.
> 
> I’m a UK resident but have no links to the area, except with the local notary, but they’ve been unhelpful with trying to sell the property. Regrettably I also cannot speak French. I’ve contacted a few online estate agents, but none have had agents in the local area.
> 
> I’m looking for other options to sell, including whether there are any kinds of online property auctions? Getting to the property is 12 hours each way, so would like to try and minimise the amount of travel involved in any viewings or sale. I’m also more interested in getting the property sold quickly than making a substantial profit on it, as the longer it takes the more it’s condition deteriorates and more money it’s costing me on local taxes.
> 
> Would any of you have suggestions to help me sell? Thank you in advance


There's a forum called The Other French Forum where a bloke who goes by the username Mysty appears to buy up wrecks, maybe fixes them up and sells them on. Might be worth checking out.


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## AJ584

Thank you for the updated posts, some more options I can follow up on. Extremely grateful for these


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## tardigrade

Lalla said:


> There's a forum called The Other French Forum where a bloke who goes by the username* Mysty *appears to buy up wrecks, maybe fixes them up and sells them on. Might be worth checking out.


Already told brian about it and it is way to expensive for him; it has to be max. €10000 for his and her budget.


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## EuroTrash

eairicbloodaxe said:


> All property will sell... you just need to find the right price (and the right buyer). That requires a bit of marketing!


I guess I have to accept that you are correct because you undoubtedly have infinitely more financial acumen than I do.
But I am struggling to swallow this, because it has always seemed to me that there are properties in France (I am not talking about the OP's property here, just in general) that are going to be an albatross round any purchaser's neck. They are literally worth nothing, because their market value after being made habitable will be less than the amount of money it has cost to make them habitable.

As I said I'm not saying this is the case here because the property is habitable in part at least, I would just like you to prove that my quibbles are unfounded and convince me that every property has a value despite apparent signs to the contrary. Are you saying for instance that the land in itself has value and demolishing and rebuilding will always turn a profit?


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## Bevdeforges

EuroTrash said:


> I would just like you to prove that my quibbles are unfounded and convince me that every property has a value despite apparent signs to the contrary. Are you saying for instance that the land in itself has value and demolishing and rebuilding will always turn a profit?


ET, that assumes that the ultimate "reason" for owning property is to "turn a profit." That is a distinctly "anglo-saxon" point of view (meaning Brits and Americans for the most part). For many people (particularly here in France), the point of owning property is to be able to use it for their own needs and amusement and to have something to pass along to their kids, grandkids and so on. Others hang onto a property in order to rent it out and have some "easy income" in their old age (or before that). For each of those different motives, a given property may have very different "values."


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## EuroTrash

Bevdeforges said:


> ET, that assumes that the ultimate "reason" for owning property is to "turn a profit." That is a distinctly "anglo-saxon" point of view (meaning Brits and Americans for the most part). For many people (particularly here in France), the point of owning property is to be able to use it for their own needs and amusement and to have something to pass along to their kids, grandkids and so on. Others hang onto a property in order to rent it out and have some "easy income" in their old age (or before that). For each of those different motives, a given property may have very different "values."


I wouldn't say it necessarily assumes that. Just to clarify I was talking about uninhabitable properties, that will need years of work before they can be rented out or lived in. I see a big difference between having the ultimate aim of "turning a profit", and hesitating to spend your money on a property knowing that even after investing a great deal of time and effort into it, you are ultimately likely to end up with something that compares unfavourably to other properties you could have ended up with for the same amount of money (and especially if the point was partly to hand something down to your heirs). Perhaps I'm wrong but I would suggest that "break-even" is a kind of red line for many people. They are perfectly happy to aim to break even, but it is harder to justify aiming below that line because it feels bit irresponsible and self-indulgent. Hence, given the choice - and buyers are given the choice since there is no shortage of properties on the market - I think most people would choose to buy a property that will meet their needs and amuse them without costing them more than it will ever be worth. Which seems to be borne out by the number of properties that never sell, and the roof falls in and the doorway gets covered up by vegetation, and yes I know there are all kinds of contributory factors like the heirs not being able to agree or not being traceable but some of them do actually have faded rotting A Vendre boards outslde.

An example. There's a house near me that's been unlived-in for nearly 20 years which belongs to an old lady who moved to a bungalow. She kept the old house thinking her son would be glad to take it on to modernise and live in one day. It still has an outside toilet and no mod cons inside and the son isn't interested because he's set up in a modern house. He grudgingly comes now and again at weekends to mows the grass and patch the roof and window frames when bits fall off. No doubt when mum dies he'll try to get rid but it's unlikely to sell in his lifetime. It's very sad actually, the old lady has told me several times how fond she is of the old house because of the memories etc and how she used to hope her son would want it, she says she understands why he doesn't but she gets quite tearful about it. I think she's still secretly hoping one of the grandchildren will want it but what young person is going to want to take on an old fashioned house that is borderline habitable but needs tons of work put into it, when they're out at work all day and want to come home to modern comforts? Sadly I find it hard to see where its value is in an era where the priority has to be for homes to be energy efficient, carbon neutral, however you want to look at it, beyond its sentimental value to one (very sweet) old lady.


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## Bevdeforges

I can't tell you how many stories I have heard from some of the (French) people I know who spend a large part of their vacation time, and significant time after they retire hacking back weeds and brambles around the "family home" that they or their spouse has inherited. The place is in no condition to live in or even use for a vacation home, but they can't bear to sell it off - because for many French families, property is very wrapped up in family and memories and all that. Like for the old lady you talk about - it's having the property in the family that is "priceless" to her - and maybe her son will have to wait until his mother has passed on to sell off the property to someone looking to demolish and rebuild.

I know it has been a huge fad back in the US for people to buy small (but in many cases serviceable) houses, then bulldoze them and build huge modern houses that are more in keeping with modern tastes. The house across the street from where I grew up is now just such a "lot hugger" and it certainly isn't the only such totally rebuilt house on the street.

I just don't know what the regulations here are about demolishing an old house to rebuild an entirely new house on the property. That could possibly impede doing something like that here.


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## Befuddled

Another factor in the discussion is employment. Is there any in the area? When most of the people worked in farming or related trades and the fashion was for large families there were not so many derelict houses. Today the young don't want to be farmers and go elsewhere to find alternative work. Without any sort of head start they blow most of their income on rent near their work, only returning to the family home on Sunday for the traditional family meal. In Brittany anyway you can't travel more than 20 minutes in any direction without seeing a derelict place. Foreigners came in during the late 20th century and snapped up anything near the coast or with a nice view. When I arrived in 2001 the Brits were in a kind of feeding frenzy trying to find something cheap and cheerful. I even used to take house hunters around to view their shortlisted possibles. The tension in the air was palpable. Not wanting to miss out they were not overly fussy what state the houses were in or how close the nearest pig unit was located unless the wind was blowing in the wrong direction during their visit. People coming in from the US are probably unaware what was driving this. In UK the houses for the "working class" are generally small and come with very little land so upon seeing France with its picturesque stone cottages and farmhouses surrounded by plenty of elbow room at bargain prices practical considerations were often clouded. When I arrived I had no intention of staying but the pace of life and a good exchange rate prompted me to stay. I found a little place needing modernisation with river frontage in over two acres for less than the price of a secondhand Ford. I just couldn't resist. In UK I would never be able to afford anything like it even in very sad condition. French people don't use houses as a means to acquire wealth as is the case in Britain so even a nice house can take many months or years to sell. Just a different market and mindset. If someone wants to pour money into a wreck it is not necessarily intended to make a profit. Many Brits have gone back after taking a loss on a renovation that took them many years. That's the way it sometimes works out. French people rent as priority and spend their excess cash on decent food and drink, letting the landlord pay for maintenance and improvements. If they buy it might be to be nearer to their roots when it comes time to think about retirement.


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## AJ584

After doing some offline research on this, whilst I try and look into the options to try and sell/give away the property, I'm trying to get the taxes/bills minimized, notably the habitation tax and TV license. 

What I can find on the habitation tax is you can apply centrally but it usually needs evidence, or vetting by the local mayor, but inability to speak/write french is proving a challenge. Would any of you be aware of any established companies which would cater for ad-hoc requests such as this, just to help with the translation, navigation and facilitation of such things?


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## Befuddled

AJ584 said:


> After doing some offline research on this, whilst I try and look into the options to try and sell/give away the property, I'm trying to get the taxes/bills minimized, notably the habitation tax and TV license.
> 
> What I can find on the habitation tax is you can apply centrally but it usually needs evidence, or vetting by the local mayor, but inability to speak/write french is proving a challenge. Would any of you be aware of any established companies which would cater for ad-hoc requests such as this, just to help with the translation, navigation and facilitation of such things?


We are in much the same situation regarding the language barrier. The habitation tax took a couple of years to crack but eventually managed to get out from under it using only an online translator for emails to the local tax office that was sending the demands. The main criteria to have the tax lifted is that the house is _not habitable_. In most areas this simply means it is empty of furniture and the utility services are disconnected. In our case we had to smash it up a bit and produce copies of EDF & water supply resiliations. Our next move would have been a can of petrol and a match but it didn't come to that. We are still stuck with the Tax Fonciere which can only be avoided by selling the place or dying. We also keep a small 3rd party insurance going in case a bit of it drops onto a passer by's head.


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## BoilingFrog

Maybe you should offer it in a prize draw!


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## AJ584

Befuddled said:


> We are in much the same situation regarding the language barrier. The habitation tax took a couple of years to crack but eventually managed to get out from under it using only an online translator for emails to the local tax office that was sending the demands. The main criteria to have the tax lifted is that the house is _not habitable_. In most areas this simply means it is empty of furniture and the utility services are disconnected. In our case we had to smash it up a bit and produce copies of EDF & water supply resiliations. Our next move would have been a can of petrol and a match but it didn't come to that. We are still stuck with the Tax Fonciere which can only be avoided by selling the place or dying. We also keep a small 3rd party insurance going in case a bit of it drops onto a passer by's head.


Thank you! This is also extremely useful, also somewhat comforting to know it's not just me who is struggling with the language barrier. As a last resort I was going to try resorting to a popular search engine with translation app to see how far I could get, so it's good to hear you were successful with that approach. I had read about needing to provide evidence of the property not being habitable, although wasn't sure what constituted as evidence, but if copies of resiliations worked for you I can try that. I wasn't sure if they needed photos, or something signed by the local mayor or such.

The gas supply may be an issue, as supply is via a tank which we had quoted an exorbitant amount to have removed, but water shouldn't be a problem, hopefully that will suffice.


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## Befuddled

_" I wasn't sure if they needed photos, or something signed by the local mayor or such."_

Which reminds me. At one stage we did offer it to the commune free of charge but they weren't interested.


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