# FBAR question - electronic filing, and what to put for spouse



## TooMuchCoffee

Please help...I had someone complete the FBARs for me, but I noticed a few mistakes so I am re-doing them myself. My questions:

1. For my spouse (who is Canadian, with no ties to the U.S.) - for the accounts we hold jointly, do I put him as the principal joint owner? And do I put "Non-resident alien" where it asks what his taxpayer ID is? He doesn't have one, and I don't see why he should. He's not American.

2. Has anyone here tried the BSA e-filing system? And if so, how did it work for you? I'm running down to the wire here, and thought I would try it. It would save me courier costs, and I might actually get this in on time. I'm just curious to know if anyone has tried it.

3. I'm still confused about TFSAs. Is it a trust? Or not? And what I put in the FBAR? Can I just write in "TFSA" where it asks what type of account this is?


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## Bevdeforges

TooMuchCoffee said:


> Please help...I had someone complete the FBARs for me, but I noticed a few mistakes so I am re-doing them myself. My questions:
> 
> 1. For my spouse (who is Canadian, with no ties to the U.S.) - for the accounts we hold jointly, do I put him as the principal joint owner? And do I put "Non-resident alien" where it asks what his taxpayer ID is? He doesn't have one, and I don't see why he should. He's not American.


IIRC, for accounts you hold jointly with an NRA spouse, I believe you're permitted to simply indicate "spouse" for the principal joint owner - you don't have to give his name. And "NRA"for the ITIN is just fine.



> 2. Has anyone here tried the BSA e-filing system? And if so, how did it work for you? I'm running down to the wire here, and thought I would try it. It would save me courier costs, and I might actually get this in on time. I'm just curious to know if anyone has tried it.


I tried it this year and couldn't make it work for some reason. It was early enough that I just gave up and did the forms manually. If you can make it work, go for it. Not sure what it will do with the NRA designation, though. It's worth a try in any event.



> 3. I'm still confused about TFSAs. Is it a trust? Or not? And what I put in the FBAR? Can I just write in "TFSA" where it asks what type of account this is?


I'm not familiar enough with the sorts of accounts available in Canada to offer any substantive advice. But we do have tax-free savings accounts here in France and I've always just listed those accounts as "savings" accounts for FBAR purposes. The US IRS doesn't recognize the tax-free feature of any overseas accounts, so you need to include the interest earned on those accounts in your tax filing (i.e. your 1040). (For joint accounts I wouldn't include more than half the interest earned - if that. There are justifications you can use, but I won't go into them here.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Ms Deep South

@Too Much Coffee: I started the e-filing yesterday, mistakingly thinking that it would save me time in transit of the FBAR from Germany to US and courier costs. Think again. The e-filing system is definitely flawed and onerous but more on that later.

*My main, currently urgent problem:* 
I too have a non-resident alien (NRA) spouse living in Germany with me, he has no ties to the US, no need or desire for a TIN. We have no joint accts but I do have signature authority on several of his accts, so I have to complete Part IV of the FBAR. Unlike paper filing, where you simply write in "NRA" in the taxpayer identification number of account owner, the efiling system highlights the field in red after you type in NRA and gives you an error message box saying the TIN must be nine digits. I tried and retried and retried. I even entered nine zeroes but the system recognized that as an error as well. Next to his last name, I typed in parentheses (non-resident alien NRA) thinking that perhaps that would be beneficial clarification. I have no idea what will happen if I try to sign with my PIN and send. Possibly the system will shoot it back immediately as invalid? Or possibly an incorrect form (due to NRA designation) will be accepted but rejected later, leaving me wide open for potential problems with IRS and FinCEN?
I did print the efiling FBAR for my records but before it even printed, I got another message box saying I hadn't signed with the PIN, *and* that there was a validation error concerning Item 35, taxpayer identification number. Duh. The system does notice certain things but really gives you no help with what I think is a common problem, i.e. an NRA spouse with no TIN and no need to have one.

About efilng: In order to get things started, I had to comply with to system requirements and uninstall my Adobe Reader version 10.1.3, then download the older 9.1.0 version. That in turn meant that there were items on the bsaefiling site that I could not read because the Adobe Reader 9.1.0 was not up to speed!! I could not use Firefox; I had to use Microsoft Internet Explorer but OK. It took at least 20 minutes to actually get onto the BSA Efiling site (overloaded server?), then it took another yet 1 1/2 hrs to *finally *get the FBAR form to load so I could fill it out! The system either sent me back to an earlier window with no explanation or gave me an error message "Not found". And all this was in addition to the time it took me 3 days earlier to understand the process of registering, getting a secure password, PIN for filing, etc. I am not the sharpest blade in the drawer when it comes to this stuff and the site is not user-friendly.

Back to my attempted efiling of the completed FBAR form with the invalid NRA designation. I picked up the phone and called the BSA Efiling help desk but after some 6 solid hours of trying and trying to get thru and getting a non-stop busy signal, I gave up. I sent an email to [email protected] asking for help, no reply on that either and I doubt I will ever hear back from them in my lifetime. Then I called the IRS help number for FBAR questions. I got through IMMEDIATELY but the minute I mentioned FBAR efiling, the woman said, "Sorry, we don't answer any questions or help with issues concerning efiling of FBAR. You'll have to call their number and ask for Extension 1 to get help." Oh joy.

Comedy of errors. I definitely see the error of my ways; I should *never ever* have decided to efile as the system is very flawed and help is not at hand. I was very mistaken in thinking that I should bite the bullet and start dealing with FBAR efiling this year, as they would be *mandatory* as of next year. I learned too late that ruling has been put on hold until July 1, 2013, meaning that--as things currently stand- 2012 Fbars can be paper filed next year as well. 

My question to anyone knowledgeable with this stuff:
*I have 2 options, the way I see it:* delete the information on Part IV of the FBAR efiling form and efile WITHOUT the signature authority accts, and then subesequently submit an amended FBAR on paper via snail mail, with the signature authority accts included, acoompanied by a short letter saying that the system did not allow for NRA in that field. I don't want to leave myself wide open for a possible penalty--you never know with the IRS and FinCEN what will happen!!
Or I could download the current FBAR form from the IRS site, complete that form (because you CANNOT use a printed efile FBAR for a paper submission!!), run down to Mail Boxes Etc in a couple of hours and UPS the form to Detroit. It will not get there until Monday. *There is no overnight,super duper expensive and fast mailing of documents to Detroit. *

If anyone can help with this, offer sage advice or perhaps some Kahlua for my coffee, I would *really *appreciate it as time is of the essence. This stuff makes me crazy!! And I haven't even solved my bigger problem of what to do with Form 8621 for filing of PFICs and learning how to classify my investments as PFICs or non-PFICs. Luckily, I have an extension on 2011 taxes until October 15th to figure things out. Looks like I'll need the time.


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## Bevdeforges

Just drop trying to file through the e-filing system. 

Use the fill-in pdf forms available on the IRS website: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf
This form WILL take NRA and anything else you put in. What I like is that it prints everything off in little tiny print - which is their problem, not yours.

Unfortunately, there is no way around printing these off and mailing them in, which means they'll be a little late. Frankly, the rule about going by receipt date rather than postmark date only changed a few years ago and I suspect there are plenty of folks still going by the postmark date rule and I doubt the IRS has the resources to follow up on all filings received a few days late. (All bets are off if there are other significant issues with your filing.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Ms Deep South

Thanks for the quick reply, Bev! Your advice matches my gut reaction to ditch the efiling and go with paper filing. 




Bevdeforges said:


> This form WILL take NRA and anything else you put in. What I like is that it prints everything off in little tiny print - which is their problem, not yours.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is no way around printing these off and mailing them in, which means they'll be a little late. Frankly, the rule about going by receipt date rather than postmark date only changed a few years ago and I suspect there are plenty of folks still going by the postmark date rule and I doubt the IRS has the resources to follow up on all filings received a few days late. (All bets are off if there are other significant issues with your filing.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Well, they can ruin their eyesight on the tiny print as far as I care.

There is also a post from June 26, 2012 at Jack Townsend's Federal Tax Crimes blog, "June 30 Filing Date for FBARs - Some Relief? (6/26/12)" about an *inofficial, possible* relaxing of the deadline this year due to June 30th deadline falling on a Saturday. But it's anyone's guess as to whether they will adapt that attitude when all is said and done. I've wasted enough time and LCUs on this already.

Thanks again for your help!
Ms Deep South


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## Kaia

I sent my 2011 FBAR yesterday (6/27) from Germany as an "Eilsendung" for 4.11 Euros. Goes by airmail to the US and then with the fastest delivery possible. The guy at the counter was skeptical that it would arrive before Monday, but I figured the financial risk isn't high and maybe I'll be lucky. The time given for mail to the US from Germany is 3-5 days.
1 FBAR down, a whole bunch to go!

Kaia


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## TooMuchCoffee

Ms Deep South said:


> @Too Much Coffee: I started the e-filing yesterday, mistakingly thinking that it would save me time in transit of the FBAR from Germany to US and courier costs. Think again. The e-filing system is definitely flawed and onerous but more on that later.
> 
> *My main, currently urgent problem:*
> I too have a non-resident alien (NRA) spouse living in Germany with me, he has no ties to the US, no need or desire for a TIN. We have no joint accts but I do have signature authority on several of his accts, so I have to complete Part IV of the FBAR. Unlike paper filing, where you simply write in "NRA" in the taxpayer identification number of account owner, the efiling system highlights the field in red after you type in NRA and gives you an error message box saying the TIN must be nine digits. I tried and retried and retried. I even entered nine zeroes but the system recognized that as an error as well. Next to his last name, I typed in parentheses (non-resident alien NRA) thinking that perhaps that would be beneficial clarification. I have no idea what will happen if I try to sign with my PIN and send. Possibly the system will shoot it back immediately as invalid? Or possibly an incorrect form (due to NRA designation) will be accepted but rejected later, leaving me wide open for potential problems with IRS and FinCEN?
> I did print the efiling FBAR for my records but before it even printed, I got another message box saying I hadn't signed with the PIN, *and* that there was a validation error concerning Item 35, taxpayer identification number. Duh. The system does notice certain things but really gives you no help with what I think is a common problem, i.e. an NRA spouse with no TIN and no need to have one.
> 
> I did end up efiling usuccessfully (I think - I did get a confirmation email) but it tooka few tries. I usually use Chrome as a browser, but that didn't work with their system - I had to switch to Internet Explorer. For the jointly filed accounts, it's true you can't enter "NRA" (the whole field turns red). I just left that part blank. My husband doesn't have an ITN, so there wasn't anything for me to put there. I write (spouse) after his last name, and the system accepted that.


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## Ms Deep South

@TooMuchCoffee: So you were able to successfully efile? Interesting. I didn't think I could get away with just leaving the TIN field blank, since it won't accept "NRA". When I deleted the NRA, I then got one of those message boxes/tool tips stating that the field needed a 9-digit number. I assumed that I'd end up wasting more time by trying to submit and having it rejected due to those blank fields.

Oh well, I have just finished doing the good ole paper FBAR, am about to print it out and take it to UPS. It will get there on Monday. Maybe they will tweak their system sometime soon and make it more user friendly.


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## JuanValdez

*Filing Outcome*

Kaia, What was the outcome of your tax filing?


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