# Problems? whats your story



## PETERFC

Hi All

Myself like others are looking to move to Portugal, me in the near future. Do you have a story to tell, can others learn from it, then please feel free and let the rest of use know. 

By telling us your story others may benefit for it.

Peter


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## silvers

Cars. 
Second hand are expensive, if you then try to sell it, you have little chance. The dealers will not give you a fair price and the Portuguese buy on the drip and so don't have the cash to buy.
If you are going to buy here, try to get new or be prepared to drive the one you do buy into the ground, to get value for your hard earned.


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## Mr.Blueskies

"You naughty man Peter, asking a question like that !


"Everything is wonderful here !!!!!


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi Mr Blueskies

You say "Everything is wonderful here !!!!!

Sold the business premises contracts i hope this Friday, now sell the business.

Sell a house with a tenant?.

Become an EX sell our home and split up everything i have worked for in the last 30 years. 

What do i get in the end, to be happy

Peter


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## Mr.Blueskies

"Well Peter, you are on your way now ! Sell a house with a tenant ? hmmm
Is he a good tenant ? lol asset or liability ? lol Hope he doesn't hold out for a
dropsy.


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## Mr.Blueskies

Getting back to the original topic. I agree 100% with what Silvers has said
re: cars. The other grey areas in my opinion are (a) Property. It is essential to get it right first time, ie location, price, size of house etc and getting the right people on your team, goes without saying. Get it wrong and you will be stuck with the wrong house, that you may never manage to re-sell. 

The second grey area that I have found is getting work done for a fair price. As an example. I was looking to have new weatherglaze windows installed in a house. First guy gave me a quote for €18,000 and wanted 50% paid in advance. Second guy gave me a quote for €5,300 and did not want a penny until the job was done to my satisfaction. Others come and look and you
never hear from or see them again.


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## omostra06

The biggest problem i personally encountered was "planning" the planning process here can be a mine field, it can take a long time and cost a lot in fees.

But the biggest problems with planning is that people are unaware of whats involved, buying rebuild property on the say so of rouge agents that tell them its easy to get electric connected, easy to rebuild a ruin, dont need planning permission if you build on the footprint etc etc, all things that people find out the hard way are not as easy as they are told it will be.

In my line of work i get to meet many people and recieve emails and calls from people asking advise, normally after they have bought some old ruin and want to rebuild and get connected to electric etc, some at thier wits end because of the amount of work and stress involved in getting planning,

some buy old ruins and are unaware or led astray by people just wanting to get a sale, and think they can rebuild without permission, others do some research and get nervous about whats involved and then ignore planning permission and just rebuild or build without any permission, most of these get a vist from the camara......and are faced with lots of problems.

To avoid any problems make sure you do as much research about what you can and cant do to a building , before buying it. there is loads of info on the web about planning permission in portugal these days.


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## nelinha

Problems yes, I was told the other day that if you ask 3 Portuguese experts for their opinion on anything, you will get 4 different expert opinions!!! I'm having the same problem, trying to get a concertina type awning installed on my first floor terrace, some have told me I need camara approval, others that I don't, I even had the opinion that I must go ahead, install it and if someone denounces me and the municipal police come, then I must pay the fine and start the licencing process at the camara!!!!


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## Mr.Blueskies

Can anyone give any guidelines, as to what can safely be done without planning permission ? For example, I have been told that old windows can be replaced with new without permission as long as the widows are not enlarged.
Also that all interior work can be done and interior partition walls added in safety ?


I have a garage at the front of my house that just needs garage doors fitted, front and back. Could I install windows and sliding doors front and back and so turn it into additional living space without planning permission ?


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## silvers

Dear Mr Bluepies,
It is my belief that the answers are, in order,
Yes, no and no.


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## John999

I am not so sure about it. There are some basic rules you have to respect, but the rules can be stretched… how far you can go, depends to your local council. Ex: Praya Del Rei complex doesn´t allow you to have a washing line on your front garden, “spoils the views”. If you want to be sure of what can you do or not, take your plans to your local council, and they will tell you for what you need planning permission. They might take a few days, (weeks??), to answer you, but at least you will know how far you can go, without spending money with an architect 
John999


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## nelinha

John999 said:


> I am not so sure about it. There are some basic rules you have to respect, but the rules can be stretched… how far you can go, depends to your local council. Ex: Praya Del Rei complex doesn´t allow you to have a washing line on your front garden, “spoils the views”. If you want to be sure of what can you do or not, take your plans to your local council, and they will tell you for what you need planning permission. They might take a few days, (weeks??), to answer you, but at least you will know how far you can go, without spending money with an architect
> John999


That sounds just like Portugal.  Perhaps if I throw a case of Alentejo vinho tinto and some bucks for coffee at the town council, the delay will be days and not weeks.   Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Regards
Nelinha


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## John999

nelinha said:


> That sounds just like Portugal.  Perhaps if I throw a case of Alentejo vinho tinto and some bucks for coffee at the town council, the delay will be days and not weeks.   Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
> 
> Regards
> Nelinha


I wouldn´t chance the Bucks but a case of Esporão red, Huummmm...will probably work
John999


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## omostra06

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Can anyone give any guidelines, as to what can safely be done without planning permission ? For example, I have been told that old windows can be replaced with new without permission as long as the widows are not enlarged.
> Also that all interior work can be done and interior partition walls added in safety ?
> 
> 
> I have a garage at the front of my house that just needs garage doors fitted, front and back. Could I install windows and sliding doors front and back and so turn it into additional living space without planning permission ?


Yes, Mr Blueskies, well informed estate agents have this information.

Ok, new laws regarding building,planning etc, go into the Diario da Republica, and are all available to be viewed, so that you can clearly see what the laws are and how they may affect you. (or your property)

In this case we are looking at what can be done without planning permission,
so in the Diario da Republica, 2a serie-no 206 - 23 of October 2008
under Artigo 4 Isencao de controlo previo

it lists all the work that can be done to a property without the owner having to apply to the council for permissions.

for example, things like garden perimiter walls upto 1.8 meters, land terracing walls upto 2 metres. new buildings in the garden less than 3 meters high and less than 20m2, some interior work, etc, etc

it does list lots of changes that can be made without a license or project, anyone interested in rebuilding or making changes to a property should go through info like this first.


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## John999

Hi Derek
Can you answer this question?
We have a 1.5m wall around our property. It is our intention to raze that wall. Did some research and can’t find the answer to it. Wrote to my council, but still waiting for replay, (might try the case of wine). Friends and neighbours have given me 2 different answers. Some say I can’t do it because the local council wouldn’t allow it, others are saying that if I use a 6ft metal or wood fence over the wall, it will be ok. Can you help?
Thanks
John999


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi Derek

Thanks for that bit if important news. Do you have a link as it would be nice to print of and be able to go back to it when needed.

Like my Pic? :clap2:

Peter


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## omostra06

John999 said:


> Hi Derek
> Can you answer this question?
> We have a 1.5m wall around our property. It is our intention to raze that wall. Did some research and can’t find the answer to it. Wrote to my council, but still waiting for replay, (might try the case of wine). Friends and neighbours have given me 2 different answers. Some say I can’t do it because the local council wouldn’t allow it, others are saying that if I use a 6ft metal or wood fence over the wall, it will be ok. Can you help?
> Thanks
> John999


Hi John,

the law states that you can build a wall around your property to a hight of 1.8 meters, but, if the wall faces a public road then you need to build the wall 5 meters back from the centre of the road and you must ask for permission to build this road facing wall. 
you will of course see lots of higher walls, these higher walls require permission, to get round the need to ask for permission many people will build the "no permission" 1.8 meter wall then put more hight on top using plastic panal, wood, metal panals etc, these dont require permision, but be aware that you would then be bending the rules. if you dont build a wall and only use wood or some other material then you may get away with a higher fence.

However, these general rules in some cases and regions are over written by the local council, some local councils will have other rules that stop the building of walls, in certain cases, so as always you need to check with your local council to see if what you plan to do can be done. just pop in to the planning dept and tell them what you want to do and where your property is and they will tell you about any restrictions.


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi All

I started this post because as time draws near "i hope" to when it's my turn in to join the queue to move to Portugal Gois area. It seemed important to know some of the pitfalls that others have had along the road to settling down to a new life.

Thanks and please keep replies coming. I hope this post is of help to others as much as it has been to me.

Thanks to you all

Peter


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## omostra06

PETERFC said:


> Hi Derek
> 
> Thanks for that bit if important news. Do you have a link as it would be nice to print of and be able to go back to it when needed.
> 
> Like my Pic? :clap2:
> 
> Peter


dont have a link to it peter, we just have hard copies in our office for all this sort of stuff. pop in next time your near and i will do you a copy. 
(its also all in Portuguese)


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## Mr.Blueskies

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the information. "So you are still talking to me then ?

Would have been gutted, if we had have fallen out.


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## omostra06

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Hi Derek,
> 
> Thanks for the information. "So you are still talking to me then ?
> 
> Would have been gutted, if we had have fallen out.


you were getting close to being removed from my christmas card list....


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## John999

Thanks for that Derek
John999


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## jellybean

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Getting back to the original topic. I agree 100% with what Silvers has said
> re: cars. The other grey areas in my opinion are (a) Property. It is essential to get it right first time, ie location, price, size of house etc and getting the right people on your team, goes without saying. Get it wrong and you will be stuck with the wrong house, that you may never manage to re-sell.
> 
> The second grey area that I have found is getting work done for a fair price. As an example. I was looking to have new weatherglaze windows installed in a house. First guy gave me a quote for €18,000 and wanted 50% paid in advance. Second guy gave me a quote for €5,300 and did not want a penny until the job was done to my satisfaction. Others come and look and you
> never hear from or see them again.


So did you get your windows done to your satisfaction? If so, can you give me the name of the guy who did it please cos we need some new windows too - preferably before it gets any cooler!

And you're right, everything is wonderful here


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## Foradarede

omostra06 said:


> Ok, new laws regarding building,planning etc, go into the Diario da Republica, and are all available to be viewed, so that you can clearly see what the laws are and how they may affect you. (or your property)
> 
> In this case we are looking at what can be done without planning permission,
> so in the Diario da Republica, 2a serie-no 206 - 23 of October 2008
> under Artigo 4 Isencao de controlo previo
> 
> it lists all the work that can be done to a property without the owner having to apply to the council for permissions.
> 
> for example, things like garden perimiter walls upto 1.8 meters, land terracing walls upto 2 metres. new buildings in the garden less than 3 meters high and less than 20m2, some interior work, etc, etc
> 
> it does list lots of changes that can be made without a license or project, anyone interested in rebuilding or making changes to a property should go through info like this first.



Derek, I hope you're still out there?

I am about to give up on my dreams of living in a cob house and growing my own food here in Portugal. I have started investigating France, where it's easier to self-build etc., but which I might not be able to afford.

This might be my last shot for Portugal, coz trying to do things legally is highly likely to take me over budget, if I even end up allowed to do what I want. 

As it's so difficult to sell property on in Portugal, and because my budget is very small, I now think it would be wiser, if I can do it legally, to find a small and very cheap piece of rural land (classified as agricultural/rustic) and build a cob structure under 20m2 and live there off-grid.

The structure would be of all-natural materials - gravel, stone, subsoil, sand, straw, water, round wood, and reclaimed items such as second-hand doors and windows.

Could I get away with this? I do not have any other home, so I couldn't pretend that the land and structure was just for holidays or the odd overnight stay. 

(That said, perhaps I could buy a small apartment somewhere within reach and rent it out as a source of income, and use that as my official address? I'm not sure I would want to do this though).

Up to how many small buildings can one put up on one's land? Does this depend on the size of the land? I am thinking of putting up even smaller structures than 20m2, one would be a compost toilet, the other a kitchen. So perhaps three one-storey buildings totaling around 30m2. All very rustic using natural materials.

My greywater would be dealt with via a reedbed or similar.

I haven't yet decided on region, but I am most familiar with Viseu and the surrounding areas (Guarda and Aveiro).

Thanks very much!


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## Janina k

Hello

Well well, Peterfc is banned. I am his brother and he never mentioned that he was banned he told us he didn't use this Forum. Anybody know why it will give me something to quiz him over.

Banned ????

FRED


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## Strontium

PeterFC was banned years ago but we are not permitted to discuss it as against the rules of something like " bringing the forum/mods into disrepute" PeterFC just got into an online tiff which, if not online, would not have happened as they'd just agreed to disagree and all shaken hands and gone off for a beer together.

Foradarede You should know omostra06 aka Derek is no longer living in Portugal but left several years ago, he still lurks occasionally but unlikely to respond with current information to assist you. I would suggest you could, maybe, come to a compromise your aspiration, there are many rural houses which are classed as habitation which are unoccupied, for sale and needing work. These houses are built of field stone, gathered locally, with mud infill and traditionally the ground floor was often for animals/storage. They were built before the current building regulation and do not need to meet these so any "renovation" - not rebuild - is less onerous in mainly the front windows + doors + walls should remain in a similar style and if agricultural building are included their renovation is even less regulated. For 15k euro you would have a decent choice and almost zero hassle. Mine included olive, orange, lemon, fig trees grape vines, well etc.


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## Foradarede

Strontium said:


> Foradarede You should know omostra06 aka Derek is no longer living in Portugal but left several years ago, he still lurks occasionally but unlikely to respond with current information to assist you. I would suggest you could, maybe, come to a compromise your aspiration, there are many rural houses which are classed as habitation which are unoccupied, for sale and needing work. These houses are built of field stone, gathered locally, with mud infill and traditionally the ground floor was often for animals/storage. They were built before the current building regulation and do not need to meet these so any "renovation" - not rebuild - is less onerous in mainly the front windows + doors + walls should remain in a similar style and if agricultural building are included their renovation is even less regulated. For 15k euro you would have a decent choice and almost zero hassle. Mine included olive, orange, lemon, fig trees grape vines, well etc.


Thanks for your input, Scontium. It was pretty much straight after I posted that I read on another thread that Derek had left years ago.

Buying and renovating a stone habitation would mean more work and expense than building a cob home from scratch. A lot, lot more.

With a team of people, we can build a cob house from foundations to roof in a couple of months (a very small house), and all for about the cost of 1m2 for a modern building (500 euros). Maybe less.

Not only is it cheap, it is structurally sound, environmentally-friendly, energy-efficient, and conforms to the thermal and acoustic regulations required of new buildings.

However, it may be that I do not have a choice in Portugal. Either I do something like you suggest, and find an agricultural building to renovate in a simple manner, and live there (which may become illegal in the future). Or I buy land where I can build and find and pay a builder with an alvara who will work with me (requires trust as well as cash), and deal with a long list of regulations and pay a lot of money (minimum 10,000 euros) just to be able to go ahead and even then it's not guaranteed I'll be allowed to do it all as I want.

So yeah, your suggestion may work out cheaper just because it might save me 10,000 euros on paperwork and professionals.


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## Strontium

...


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## BaguetteMan

Strontium said:


> For 15k euro you would have a decent choice and almost zero hassle. Mine included olive, orange, lemon, fig trees grape vines, well etc.


Hi Strontium,
Are these cheap properties available through estate agents (on the web?) or is it necessary to go there and search out a property from local word of mouth?
If someone bought a property like these, how much do you think they should allow for fees etc. involved in the purchase? 
Thanks.


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## Strontium

You can find them if you search the interwebs BUT you would be very very stupid to even consider buying one without having someone look at it and have some idea of the area. The area which this house below is sited has traditional house build of field stone with mud infil, a few rain storms and some of the mud infil may have washed out so a few 250kg wall stones may have fallen out and the wall collapsed. I know as I have seen this happen to many unoccupied houses here. The mud infill has to be maintained continuously or the walls revert to a pile of stones then the roof is unsupported and falls in. Wood infestation is rampant. damp in wood and the house roof supports and wooden floors are derelict by wood worm. As for costs it all depends on ow much you want the lawyer to do so easy enough for you to email a couple and get their quotes. Estate agents will give you the names of local lawyers for you to get quotes from and you don't have to use them.


Detached stone ruined house for sale near Alvaiázere central Portugal - Chavetejo Real Estate


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## BaguetteMan

Thanks for the insight, Strontium.


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