# Farming or ranching in rural Spanish ghost town.



## Homesteader (Jan 21, 2016)

Hello everybody.

My family used to raise beef cattle and broiler chickens in Georgia before our farm was foreclosed. We've read about the cheap, abandoned villages that are up for sale in Spain and we're wondering if we could start farming again in one of them.

One thing we're wanting to do different this time is use traditional farming methods (animal-power, wood heat, heirloom crops and livestock, non-synthetic pesticide and fertilizer) as we believe them to be more sustainable and less environmentally-damaging than what we did on the modern "factory farms."

Most of us seem to prefer Catolonia, Aragon or thereabouts, but we're open to settling pretty much anywhere. We ain't been able to do very much research yet, so a lot of the questions I have to ask might seem overly vague and generalized. I apologize for that.

-Crops were never a mainstay on our family's farm, but we did plant the pastures in corn a few times (cotton doesn't do well in the north part of Georgia) and we had pretty good luck with that. Some of our neighbors rotated corn and soy, and most of our grandparents raised tobacco. My idea right now is to grow grain sorghum as our primary cash crop and rotate that with oats, wheat, and alfalfa—or some adequate substitute, depending on the local soil or climate (barley instead of oats, clover instead of alfalfa, ect.)

-What kind of livestock does well in Spain? Right now we're thinking of primarily raising goats for milk, wool, meat, and hides. We'll probably use horses or mules for field work and transportation, or donkeys if the location is arid and the acreage is small. We also want chickens or turkeys for eggs, and perhaps some kind of waterfowl (geese) if the climate is appropriate for them. May have us a couple of hogs (domestic or captive ferals, depending on local availability) as well.

I don't know if beef or dairy cattle are really practical for us, and none of us have ever worked with draft oxen. We are likewise pretty ignorant of sheep; the one friend I have who has ever tried raising sheep says to avoid them like the plague.

-I know we ain't gonna get rich doing something like this, but do y'all think it's possible for us to stay out of debt through traditional farming? I can't help but note that there are very few Amish or Mennonites left in Western Europe. Do y'all have anything like farmer's markets where we could sell our produce? How else might we go about finding buyers for our crops and livestock? What are the taxes and regulations like for this kind of operation in Spain?

Livestock apparently have to be registered and microchipped, which sounds like a pain in the butt. I have a friend who says it ain't as bad as it sounds; dealing with the government in Europe is generally more expensive than it is in America, but far less bothersome. And very often they could care less what you do on your own land so long as you pay your taxes and don't make a mess or otherwise bother them.

-Do farriers have to be licensed in Spain? How difficult is it to get a license and how much does it cost?

-Just how rural are most of those places? Ideally we'd like to live within 20 kilometers of a town with a population of about 5,000 people, though we're willing to be more or less remote if the conditions are right.

Are telephone and electric lines available in rural areas? Can these villages be reached by public road, and should we be worried about the roads being in ill-repair or washing out during the winter and spring? This is a very big problem for anyone wanting to buy rural land in many parts of America, and while it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for us, it is something to keep in mind.

-How much land should we be looking to buy? The way I figure it, if seven adults wanted to move to a fairly hilly area with reasonably good soil, they'd need 140 acres (56 hectares) of fields, pastures, woodlots, orchards, housing and barnspace to be as self-sufficient as possible with roughly 1890's-style technology. We might need a lot more or a lot less, depending on the topography, the quality of the soil and a host of other things.

-When you buy land, is it easy enough to know whether or not you're getting the water and mineral rights along with it? I don't know the full story, but I had a great-uncle who bought some land in Montana and could do almost nothing with it because the water in his creek was owned by a rancher upstream and the shale oil under him was owned by a gas company.

-What's the hunting like in Spain? We hope to shoot and trap a good bit of our protein in addition to what we raise in our pastures. Would there be any market for pelts? Does anyone offer bounties for nuisance and invasive species?

Spanish gun laws look like a pain in the butt, but then we expected that. Seems like bows and muskets are still fairly easy to get, and that suits us fine because it'll allow us to make our own ammunition.

-How about fishing? I don't think we're going to live too close to the ocean, but if there's any good lakes, rivers or creeks near us then we'd like to take advantage of that. It's a real shame that there are no garfish or snapping turtles in Spain, but I'm sure we'll find a way to live without them.

In America you have to be careful what you get out of the water, because it's been badly polluted in many areas by the suburbs, farms, and the mining and timber industries. Is this true in Spain as well? How would we figure out if the water in our area is safe?

-How do we get there and what can we bring with us? My guess is we'd have to fly over in an jet airplane (something I've never done before), and we wouldn't be bringing much beyond what we could carry. I've heard about people renting space on cargo ships as a means of cheaply getting across the ocean, but I know absolutely nothing about this.

-What are the schools like in rural areas? Do they have bus services in the countryside, or would they have to get to school on their own power?

Truth be told, we'll probably homeschool; Spain seems to have a very active home-school culture. I've been reading Joan Escriu's blog and I'll probably do some more research on the phenomenal work that he has done in this area.

-I and my sister speak a fair bit of Spanish, but I'm the only one who can read or write in Spanish, and not particularly well. How important is it that the rest of us learn the language, and what would be a good way to do so? What about local languages, like Catalan and Basque? Would it be a good idea to know these even if you don't live in those areas? Speaking of which...

-Forgive me if this is a touchy subject, but just how... politically stable is modern Spain? I know that the ETA declared a cease-fire several years ago, but I've heard that the Catalans recently voted for independence and are talking of seceding from the rest of the country. If they do that, is there any chance of the country having another civil war?

-Do people still think that the North Atlantic Gulf Stream is going to stop? I used to hear about that a lot, how western Europe would be covered in glaciers if global warming ever seriously damaged the ocean currents. What effect would that have on Spanish agriculture?

-It's still very tentative, but my thinking is that if I can get six of my brothers and sisters and in-laws to chip in with me, we could each pay 25,000 dollars (175,000 total, 161000 euros) and that would be a safe minimum for what we need to buy some land, livestock, seeds, equipment and everything else we need to make it productive. It could also hold us over for the first couple of years until the farm surplus became enough to support us. Does this seem realistic?

Thank you for your help.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hi and welcome to the forum. I'm not sure that you would make very much money at all with this sort of enterprise as you'd need a fair bit to start up an enterprise such as this. I'm not sure of the laws surrounding organic/natural farming or indeed what visas you would use to get there. 

Jo xxx


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Hmmm...*

This may be interesting... I'll monitor.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

You seem to have thought of most everything except the very first step: your immigration visa. Unless you have a passport from a European country you can only visit Spain for 90 days, as a tourist. For longer stays you need to get a visa. Generally speaking visas are only given to Americans who are studying here, who are married to a European citizen, who are employed by a Spanish company, or who won't be working because they're retired or have independent means. It doesn't seem like you fit any of the categories. Nevertheless, you can try calling your nearest Spanish consulate (the one in New Orleans covers your area) - they're the ones who issue visas and can answer questions and give information.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Tremendous amount of questions there. 

You are doing the right thing doing research, research, research.

The visa thing is the first thing to crack as without it it could be a none starter. 

Spain is a large ( for Europe) country and has a wide range of climatic conditions and thus farm crops. I suspect the climate is generally getting warmer. The last ten years seem to have broken a few weather records.

Spanish farmers Are pretty good at utilising every bit of useful land and if I was near an abandoned village, I would expect enterprising souls to rent/buy the land (with derelict buildings) and increase their production. If they haven't I would ask why? Handiness isn't an issue as most olive groves around me are farmed by folk who moved out of the countryside for the local towns 5 or 20 miles away.

Phones , Internet, mains electric are available in the countryside but if no infrastructure exists you are expected to pay . Satellite Internet is an alternative. Solar power too but that would use up a lot of your budget. 

I think that is sufficient till you have a positive on the visa question.


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## Homesteader (Jan 21, 2016)

kalohi said:


> You seem to have thought of most everything except the very first step: your immigration visa. Unless you have a passport from a European country you can only visit Spain for 90 days, as a tourist. For longer stays you need to get a visa. Generally speaking visas are only given to Americans who are studying here, who are married to a European citizen, who are employed by a Spanish company, or who won't be working because they're retired or have independent means. It doesn't seem like you fit any of the categories. Nevertheless, you can try calling your nearest Spanish consulate (the one in New Orleans covers your area) - they're the ones who issue visas and can answer questions and give information.


I should have mentioned this in the first post.

My sister's the one who handles most of the paperwork and legal concerns. She's been talking with the consulate in I think Atlanta. Said she would get back to me once they got back to her; I get the feeling that they don't really know what to make of us. I think maybe I'll call up the New Orleans office.

I know next to nothing about corporate law, but could we set up something like an LLC in Spain and hire ourselves as employees? It sounds like what they're trying to do is make sure that new arrivals won't be a drain on their economy nor serve as unwanted competition for the existing workforce (understandable on both counts; Spain has a depressingly high unemployment rate).

I don't think we'd be hurting or helping much on the job issue, and whether or not we're a problem for local farmers would depend on where we went and what we did there. Apparently, a lot of land that was formerly used for farming is now sitting fallow because of historical overuse, and because it's too dry and hilly for intensive mechanized agriculture. Same reason you don't see much tobacco grown in East Tennessee, North Alabama and North Georgia these days.

(Surprised, and also somewhat happy to see that massive integrated poultry and hog farming ain't more common in Spain. That's what most of us went into and now most of us are bankrupt. )

If a country has a weak agricultural sector, then even a little surplus food seems like it would be a good thing. The fact that we could stay productive in the event of a major grid failure or oil shortage should be seen as an added bonus.

There are groups in Spain who are doing something close to what we want to do. They have an online network (Red Ibérica de Ecoaldeas) and there was a good article about some of them in Vice Magazine ("The 'Arsehole of the World' Is a Dreamy Spanish Eco-Village Where Ex-Pat Hippies Live"). Little more hippyish than we are, but we don't mind hippies. There's a group sort of like that still hanging out next door to the Ethridge Amish in Central Tennessee (Vanity Fair: Sex, Drugs, and Soybeans).


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I have absolutely no idea about most of your questions so good luck on your search for information on the business aspects. Two things I think you can set aside: Europe's next Ice Age won't happen in your lifetime, and there won't be a civil war.


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## carquinyoli (Jan 5, 2016)

Hola Homesteader.

Civil War? " La sangre no llegará al rio" (you will not interpret literally) Don't be apocalyptic. If the North Atlantic Gulf Stream is going to stop, the problem will be for the whole north hemisphere, minimum. You will see the hot Benidorm will definitely become the frozen Manhattan.

There are ghost villages in Galicia. The land is fertile but with microproperties (minifundio). Pirineos zone is very expensive because of ski tourism. Northeast Catalonia is similar to North Alabama, Appalachian zone. Forest and corn but with very expensive properties. Ghost towns are scarce actually in all country. There are these ruins in zones where the crops are always a problem, highlands, remoteness, drought. 

Towns pre-ghost are more abundant, villages inhabited by elderly in highlands of Castilla y León and Sistema Ibérico, South Aragón. Where there are younger people, you find truffle cultivation, forest exploitation (wood and mushroom), subsistence gardens, some livestock, services and rural tourism, pension of their elders. All very diversified. Spain is a country very old and the reality is that profitable lands are occupied in all the country for many centuries (preroman times).


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## carquinyoli (Jan 5, 2016)

Spain climates vs.US climates. I used information and records of AEMET and Wikipedia. There you will find to similar climate for their crops and you can find climate data of these locations in Wikipedia, examples:
Z- 8 Portland (Oregón) vs.Lugo (Galicia) 
Z-11 Bend (Oregón) vs. Molina de Aragón (Guadalajara)
Z-13 Sacramento (California) vs. Cáceres (Extremadura)

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/722986-winter-spain-warning-19.html
(post 189)

I put a map:http://www.expatforum.com/expats/members/carquinyoli-albums-spain-climate-1-picture15290-clima-iberia-2.jpg


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There's a Spanish TV series which looks at examples of people starting enterprises in remote villages. I don't have time to look through but I'm sure some of them cover the sort of thing you are proposing, and might be useful to you. All the shows are online here.

Conectando España - Web oficial - RTVE.es


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One of our former members (American) has a place for sale in the Asturias region, which mat well suit the OP. When you have more than 5 posts, you can access the private message system. PM me and I can forward you details.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Homesteader said:


> Hello everybody.
> 
> We've read about the cheap, abandoned villages that are up for sale in Spain and we're wondering if we could start farming again in one of them.


This opening statement is what I was wondering about, i.e., the veracity of the unspecified sources of information and the likelihood of success of such an enterprise. (As carquinyoli pointed out).


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

As said, sort out your visa's and you look to be well underfunded.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xolo said:


> This opening statement is what I was wondering about, i.e., the veracity of the unspecified sources of information and the likelihood of success of such an enterprise. (As carquinyoli pointed out).


Well, you'd better believe it
in English
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=abandoned+villages+for+sale+Spain
and in Spanish
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pueblos+abandonados+espana+2016

But visa, visa, visa


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Homesteader said:


> (Surprised, and also somewhat happy to see that massive integrated poultry and hog farming ain't more common in Spain. That's what most of us went into and now most of us are bankrupt. )


Those intensive meat factories (I won't call it "farming") have been illegal in the European Union for a while.

U.S. Lags Far Behind Europe in Protections for Farmed Animals | Animal Legal Defense Fund


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One disadvantage of the "abandoned villages" is many are not completely abandoned and may have a few homes that are actually occupied. As the owner, (landlord) one would be required to take over the responsibility of making them fully habitable and maintaining them so.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

Homesteader said:


> Ideally we'd like to live within 20 kilometers of a town with a population of about 5,000 people, though we're willing to be more or less remote if the conditions are right.


A small point to consider: After a few months your U.S. driver's license would no longer be valid, and getting a Spanish license entails taking lessons through a driving school. Prices vary, but where I live it costs about 800 euros.


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