# Spain Region Seeks Cash, Stoking Fear



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Catalonia to Ask for Spain's Help - WSJ.com



> Catalonia became the third Spanish region to ask the central government for a bailout, heightening concerns about Madrid's ability to raise cash as new signs emerged of economic problems confronting the country.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A full-scale bail-out seems on the cards for the autumn although yesterday's bond sale went much better than expected.

It is almost impossible for central government to exercise control over profligate regions. When you consider the enormous expense of the various regional governing bodies and their innumerable civil servants it seems a good case could be made for more centralisation.

Either that, or the regions must be prepared to act more responsibly where spending is concerned. PP -governed regions have been as 'bad' as PSOE led regions in controlling spending.

I read yesterday that Merkel is to press ahead later this year with moves for closer political integration amongst eurozone members. This will of course require a new treaty and new referenda on any new proposals which could be tricky where some states are concerned.

But overall, the trend is towards centralisation.

It is part of neo-liberal strategy to remove democratic decision-making as far as possible to realms where the individual has little if any effect.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

El Hierro has a population of 10,500,

We have three Ayuntamientos,

We have an Island Cabildo,

A Provincial Government, 

Then there is the Canary Island Government,

National Government,

European Government,

I dare say there are more persons employed governing us than the 10,500, population. We wonder why Spain has difficulties................


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> It is almost impossible for central government to exercise control over profligate regions.


In the case of Cataluña though they have always been hard done by due to their constant demands for independence ! Yes , they may have a debt of 40 billion but that is a tad less than they pay in to central government , who then dish it out to the waifs & strays, Andalucia, Extremadura, Murcia, etc; who all receive far more than they pay in. Whilst Cataluña receives a few tap -washers . Why should they pay in so much, watch it being dished out to all & sundry & maintaing a tight rein on there own spending just because they aren't being given a fair measure of the income ?
Basically this is what everybody is suggesting the Germans do, support the poorer countries. They only have to look at Cataluña to see how that will pan out if the EU ever went down that route.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Well said Gus-lopez if you ask any Catalonian whats the thing that upsets them the most its the distribution of their taxes half to Barcelona and half to Madrid and this is one of the many reasons thwy have always asked for independance from Spain 
Madrid does not put any money back into Catalunya but expect them to pay for other parts of Spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Well said Gus-lopez if you ask any Catalonian whats the thing that upsets them the most its the distribution of their taxes half to Barcelona and half to Madrid and this is one of the many reasons thwy have always asked for independance from Spain
> Madrid does not put any money back into Catalunya but expect them to pay for other parts of Spain


In which case..cut them loose.

Like Scotland...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Aah all well & good Mary ,but they contribute circa 11% of the total spanish gdp. There gdp is bigger than a few EU countries, Austria to name one. If they were cut loose they'd probably think they'd won all the lotteries ! & they'd actually be debt free in no time at all ,you would only be talking of months . Just the mention of that occuring , let alone the possibilty would probably sink spain quicker than anything.

Actually you can't really talk of them like Scotland. Cataluñyas income is colossal & diverse. There debt is less than they pay in to the Spanish treasury each year. If they went It is other regions which would suffer the most with Andalucia being top of the list.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Aah all well & good Mary ,but they contribute circa 11% of the total spanish gdp. There gdp is bigger than a few EU countries, Austria to name one. If they were cut loose they'd probably think they'd won all the lotteries ! & they'd actually be debt free in no time at all ,you would only be talking of months . Just the mention of that occuring , let alone the possibilty would probably sink spain quicker than anything.
> 
> Actually you can't really talk of them like Scotland. Cataluñyas income is colossal & diverse. There debt is less than they pay in to the Spanish treasury each year. If they went It is other regions which would suffer the most with Andalucia being top of the list.


That's interesting, gus...but why are they in need of a bailout now?


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

I totally agree cut them loose but Madrid wont do this for the amount of taxes they recieve


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

tonyinspain said:


> I totally agree cut them loose but Madrid wont do this for the amount of taxes they recieve


There are other regions that advocate independence from Spain, cutting Cataluña loose might just give more impetus to the others. The Canary Islands being one.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Basically this is what everybody is suggesting the Germans do, support the poorer countries.


Other way around. Ask yourself where all the money "given" to Greece et all went? You'll find large parts of it went to German banks and industry.

You might want to start with that

Hey, Germany: You Got a Bailout, Too - Bloomberg


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> Other way around. Ask yourself where all the money "given" to Greece et all went? You'll find large parts of it went to German banks and industry.
> 
> You might want to start with that
> 
> Hey, Germany: You Got a Bailout, Too - Bloomberg


Repaying loans to Greece squandered by profligate Greek Governments, perhaps?

Loans do have a nasty tendency to require repayment....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

My comment about Scotland was tongue-in-cheek.
Scottish independence might well benefit the UK Exchequer but it woulod spell economic ruin for the Scots....most sensible Scots are aware of vthis which is why Salmond will not get a majority for outright independence.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Repaying loans to Greece squandered by profligate Greek Governments, perhaps?
> 
> Loans do have a nasty tendency to require repayment....


Caveat emptor. If you make bad loans you lose money. 

The people bailed out were the Germans not the Greeks. It was the Germans who failed to regulated the German banking system. It was the German banking system that made all the bad loans. 

Ask yourself why the Germans were happy to take the profits from those Greek loans ?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> Caveat emptor. If you make bad loans you lose money.
> 
> The people bailed out were the Germans not the Greeks. It was the Germans who failed to regulated the German banking system. It was the German banking system that made all the bad loans.
> 
> Ask yourself why the Germans were happy to take the profits from those Greek loans ?


Of course German banks are not blameless in this. But neither is the Greek Government. The borrowed money was not invested wisely.
Why is anyone happy to take profits from any business activity? Find me an unhappy person who has profited from a deal...That's the oil of business, whether lending money at interest, running a bar or selling tomatoes by your finca gate...you are hoping for profit.
The real culprit is the legislation which enabled goods, people and money to pass freely throughout the EU.
It takes two to tango, as the saying goes. If you lend me money, you take a risk and should exercise due diligence. But I have a responsibility to borrow within the safe limits of my future ability to repay.

Until the global debt issue is resolved, the worlds' economies will be locked in a vicious circle of austerity and no-growth leading to deficit leading to austerity.....


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

The problem isn't that the Germans were allowed to lend the money it's that they were bailed out.

The Germans rigged the game. Heads they win. Tails they win.

Actually you have no responsibility to borrow safely. It's the other guy who is taking the risk that you'll not pay them back. 

The Greeks should have left the Euro in 2009. Defaulted. Let Germany fail. Greece would be better off today. Instead the Greeks (and the rest of the Eurozone) bailed out Germany by staying in the Euro.


What did the Greeks gain from this? If they're lucky in ten years they'll be bankrupt still.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> The problem isn't that the Germans were allowed to lend the money it's that they were bailed out.
> 
> The Germans rigged the game. Heads they win. Tails they win.
> 
> ...




Do I detect a faint hint of Germanophobia there, Nick? 
There seems to be a lot of anti-Germanism floating in the ether lately, some deserved, most not.
Hatred from the Right who cannot forget that in their opinion Germany and Germany alone was responsible for starting two devastating world wars in the last century. Hatred from the Left because Germany through its Ordo-economics has evolved a system of capitalism which creates and distributes wealth very effectively.
The fact is that for many reasons, geographical, economic and political, Germany is destined to be the power centre of Europe, whatever. On the whole it has since 1948 wielded that power in a positive way.

Now look at Greece. The 'cradle of democracy' hasn't exactly shown much expertise in employing it, having swerved from one right wing dictatorship to shambolic left-wing government to having a government with very little authority.
It is a relatively poor country which should imo never have been allowed entry to the eurozone. Like Spain, Portugal and ROI it would arguably be better off outside with its own devalued currency. But then the Governments of these countries are determined to keep them in the eurozone.

It's unfair to blame Germany for a system in which all the nations invited to participated with great enthusiasm. Cheap capital = cheap loans = construction booms, retirement at fifty, spending on already bloated and non-productive public sectors...
German history explains why present-day Germans are sensitive to any policies which jeopardise their ultra-prudent non-inflationary policies. Who can blame them? We forget, when we castigate bankers, that the funds they (mis) handle could be ours: pension funds, savings funds...don't German retirees deserve their pensions as much as Greek pensioners? Or should they be penalised for their Governments' sensible handling of the economy?

Much of my sympathy for Greece evaporated when I saw the mock-up press photo of Merkel in SS uniform. Sick, sick, sick. There seem to be more Nazis in Greece than Germany if the last election there is anything to go by,.

In short: the eurozone was doomed in its inception. Folly to lump together such disparate economies as Germany, Holland, Spain and Greece. But all who eagerly participated are to blame, not just Germany, which merely looked to its own national interests, the first duty of any Government, surely.

Then there's the British Government headed by she whose name we must not mention which also eagerly signed up to the Single European Act 1987 which permitted the free flow of capital, in true neo-liberal style.

A plague on all their houses!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

According to the papers the Cataluñian economy contributes between 20625% of the total Spanish gdp. Even more worrying !


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Lets put another spanner in the works the Chinese for years rhwy have been flooding the markets with cheap counterfiet goods and copied items and drugs tobacco and slowly built up their country with the profits and no body did anything to level the playing fields and now we are not only paying the price of cheap goods from china but the manufacturing or exports are mainly from China India and the European industrys are now stale which of course throws back to the Chinese Britain was built on financial services which as we all know is up the perverbial creek and Germany has the auto industry still so she can ateast export Mercedes to China but what about the rest of Europe nothing so i honestly can see this getting any better until we restart manufacturing at a level playing field with the rest of the world al be it wages cost of living has to be reduced to even complete with countries like INDIA and CHINA


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Lets put another spanner in the works the Chinese for years rhwy have been flooding the markets with cheap counterfiet goods and copied items and drugs tobacco and slowly built up their country with the profits and no body did anything to level the playing fields and now we are not only paying the price of cheap goods from china but the manufacturing or exports are mainly from China India and the European industrys are now stale which of course throws back to the Chinese Britain was built on financial services which as we all know is up the perverbial creek and Germany has the auto industry still so she can ateast export Mercedes to China but what about the rest of Europe nothing so i honestly can see this getting any better until we restart manufacturing at a level playing field with the rest of the world al be it wages cost of living has to be reduced to even complete with countries like INDIA and CHINA


That is true....but who was responsible for closing down our manufacturing industry and abolishing tariffs and trade barriers?

he Uk is still the leader in financial services which contribute roughly 205 of our overall tax take.

In a hundred years' time the West will be well into the decline it started on around the beginning of the last century. I'm glad I won't be around to experience it!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

tonyinspain said:


> Germany has the auto industry still so she can ateast export Mercedes to China but what about the rest of Europe nothing so i honestly can see this getting any better until we restart manufacturing at a level playing





mrypg9 said:


> That is true....but who was responsible for closing down our manufacturing industry and abolishing tariffs and trade barriers?


MT - That's probably why the UK is so successful in the car manufacturing business



> Britain is on track to hit a new all-time car manufacturing high by the end of 2015. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders forecasts that car production is set to top 2 million a year in three years' time.
> 
> Eighty percent of cars are exported - 40% of them to countries outside Europe.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> MT - That's probably why the UK is so successful in the car manufacturing business


That is true, Simon, and a good thing too.

But wouldn't it be even nicer if these auto manufacturing companies were British-owned?

Even my Landie is now owned by Tata, I believe....


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> That is true....but who was responsible for closing down our manufacturing industry and abolishing tariffs and trade barriers?
> 
> he Uk is still the leader in financial services which contribute roughly 205 of our overall tax take.
> 
> In a hundred years' time the West will be well into the decline it started on around the beginning of the last century. I'm glad I won't be around to experience it!


Totally agree but it was the low cost manufacturing in other countries that killed uk manufacturing cheaper coal killed mining
Cheaper wool killed the woolen industry
And UNIONS killed it all thats what killed the manufacturi.g of the uk we got greedy more for less and its happening in CHina now


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Anyone know apart from TVR a British car company actually owned by Britain no many india owns 2 or 3

Thats why i am against Britains fotighn aid policy
India nuclea bomb our car plants and we sent her billions she should be sending it to us he hr


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Totally agree but it was the low cost manufacturing in other countries that killed uk manufacturing cheaper coal killed mining
> Cheaper wool killed the woolen industry
> And UNIONS killed it all thats what killed the manufacturi.g of the uk we got greedy more for less and its happening in CHina now


Why blame Unions???? Are Unions alone responsible for the mess we're in? Do unions run banks? Although if my extremely well-run, efficient Union and sensible, pragmatic General Secretary had been in charge of our banking sector we might well be a lot better off than having the likes of Fred Goodwin and Bob Diamond in charge of these important financial institutions.

Surely the greedy ones are those wealthy few in Spain, the UK and everywhere else in the world who have seen their wealth increase MASSIVELY during this crisis whilst the rest of us poor sods, especially Spanish workers, have seen their wages cut and social security benefits curtailed. 

It seems a tendency to blame those at or near the bottom of society for our economic failures. Why is it that the wealthy need more in order for them to work harder whereas the low paid mustn't be 'over-indulged' with meagre pay rises?

Yes, cheaper competition from developing economies killed off many British inmdustries. But the sensible response is not a race to the bottom. Western workers could not live on Chinese wages. 

What is needed in Spain and elsewhere isn't austerity and wage cuts - it's GROWTH. 
Only by introducing a policy to stimulate growth will people be back in work with money to spend to stimulate other areas of the economy, pay taxes into the Spanish and UK treasuries....and hopefully over the counter of your bar.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Why blame Unions???? Are Unions alone responsible for the mess we're in? Do unions run banks? Although if my extremely well-run, efficient Union and sensible, pragmatic General Secretary had been in charge of our banking sector we might well be a lot better off than having the likes of Fred Goodwin and Bob Diamond in charge of these important financial institutions.
> 
> Surely the greedy ones are those wealthy few in Spain, the UK and everywhere else in the world who have seen their wealth increase MASSIVELY during this crisis whilst the rest of us poor sods, especially Spanish workers, have seen their wages cut and social security benefits curtailed.
> 
> ...


Your right of course but if we cant compete with the wages here then small family businesses will be the only way forward i worked for a lady in the furniture business she bought a company that was in liquidation and this company had hundreds of Italian table and chairs unfinished
She got in touch with French polishers in the Uk and it was cheaper to box up and send the consignment to Italy and have it finished to sell than do it in the Uk
The Uk had priced itself out the market
Same with wool coal and everything else
And as for My bar thats on its last legs so please stop quoting it !!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Your right of course but if we cant compete with the wages here then small family businesses will be the only way forward i worked for a lady in the furniture business she bought a company that was in liquidation and this company had hundreds of Italian table and chairs unfinished
> She got in touch with French polishers in the Uk and it was cheaper to box up and send the consignment to Italy and have it finished to sell than do it in the Uk
> The Uk had priced itself out the market
> Same with wool coal and everything else
> And as for My bar thats on its last legs so please stop quoting it !!!!




We had a medium-sized 'family' business in the UK...because we needed skilled, qualified workers which were in short supply because of lack of apprenticeships and quality technical and engineering education we had to pay high wages.


Non of our workers was in a union although we urged them to join. OH and I , the two Directors, were the only Union members in the business!!
But our workers were a bolshy, difficult, unreasonable lot at times with or without a Union. 

I don't know about Spain but I think that one of the big problems in the UK is that so many people in the labour 'movement' have had little or no experience in running a business of any size. For a great deal of my working life my salary was paid by the taxpayer and it wasn't until my OH acquired the business that I realised the economic facts of life.

I hope you're joking about your bar, Tony. If you're not, then we can only hope for better times and quickly...


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes it is hard i have found the last few years very hard indeed staff especially i paid them 300 to 350 per week and the spanish staff stole from us 
Then you fire them and get crap for that funny old world eh and the reason i have kept it going is it puts food on the table just and theres no social for me no money we starve simple
But you have to keep on trucking )


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Yes it is hard i have found the last few years very hard indeed staff especially i paid them 300 to 350 per week and the spanish staff stole from us
> Then you fire them and get crap for that funny old world eh and the reason i have kept it going is it puts food on the table just and theres no social for me no money we starve simple
> But you have to keep on trucking )


We've just sacked our Spanish gardeners...
The first few weeks they worked really well. But then, gradually, they began to get sloppy. They'd cut the grass and not sweep up, chuck expensive tools down or leave them out, not bothering to put them away. Then they started telling me that bits of equipment needed repairing...I paid 50 euros for one allegedly defective tool to be 'repaired'...still waiting for the receipt.
The classic came when the pool was being cleaned, not very well. I pointed out a grubby patch and was told that I must empty the pool so he could retile and grout it....This after the previous time the guy had cleaned the pool he turned on a tap inadvertently and just in time we discovered the pool about to overflow...

I paid over the going rate -around 15 euros an hour - and it soon transpired that many little piglets were coming to feed at the trough. We had three brothers and two uncles....I was told 'Don't worry, we work in half the time'...but it never turned out like that.

I feel very disappointed as I was very pleased with their initial work. Wouldn't you think that people who had been unemployed for three years would be pleased to have a decent job and want to keep it?

Luckily we caught up with an old acquaintance who had worked for us when we first came here, a real grafter. He has already cleaned our pool like it was never done before - he got in and scrubbed it.

I've heard from friends that my experience isn't uncommon. A friend who is a vet had to sack all her Spanish staff as they had been stealing from her...

Now of course this kind of thing isn't just done by Spaniards, I know that. I've had to sack a German gardener. But this is the second Spanish one we've had to get rid of which upsets me as I want to employ a Spaniard.

Do they think all Guiri females are rich and simple-minded, just because most of us try to pay a decent rate and aren't slave drivers


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

To be honest spanish are terrible the one i sacked she was on her khees i took her to supermatket spent 100 euros on food and she still stealed off us and spanish friends one srove a mercedes needed his brakes doing i put on my card ill pay ypu back in a month ok
Two yrs later still living in hope
They think we are rich we are worse of than they are but we try to help in anyway we can and they **** on us
But like i said ca sa ra ca sa ra i see you have had your share in this greedy country they try very hatd to take what ever we have
Even where we bought our beer from was robbing us blind two invoices same number different amounts asked the gestoria about them she said thats strange found out she works for them also
Any advice i give is use only proffesional people from a different town city from where you live and never goto the local ajuntamento they are family youll never win xxx


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