# Higher electricity bill.



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Anyone else find their latest electricity bill a lot higher ?
Another thing- why is the charge for 5.75 kw potencia more than double the charge for 3.3kw?
Not looking forward to the bill for the winter months!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Anyone else find their latest electricity bill a lot higher ?
> Another thing- why is the charge for 5.75 kw potencia more than double the charge for 3.3kw?
> Not looking forward to the bill for the winter months!


I had my latest one this week, covering late July to late September, and it was lower, not higher - €86-odd for 340kwh consumption on 3.45kw potencia.

I know they are due to go up quite a bit (11% it said in the papers this week) for the third quarter of the year because the price on the wholesale market has gone up a lot. It is said the unit price will go down again by the end of the year, but I bet it won't go down by as much as 11% (they never do go down by as much as the energy companies increase them, not here and not in the UK either).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Ours was lower too...it worked out at 133 euros a month. We are on the highest potencia as we tend to run a lot of things especially in summer, what with electrically pumped irrigation, pool pump etc.

What concerns me at present are our water bills. I noticed that the last three have been in the name of a new company, not Aguagest as previously. Our last two bills have been more than double the previous year's for the same period yet I don't recall extra usage and I've checked the meter for leaks.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Anyone else find their latest electricity bill a lot higher ?
> Another thing- why is the charge for 5.75 kw potencia more than double the charge for 3.3kw?
> Not looking forward to the bill for the winter months!


the 3.3.kw is the lowest charge (the _sin recursos_ rate)and is controlled by the government; if you can manage on that, stay on it - it is the cheapest.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Ours is the first bill showing the upgrade from 3.3 kw to 5. 75 kw, so I expected it to be a bit higher, but the charge for the higher potencia is ridiculous.
For a long time we endured 3.3 kW, but when you keep having to plan which appliances you can have on without tripping, it gets a bit much.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> Ours is the first bill showing the upgrade from 3.3 kw to 5. 75 kw, so I expected it to be a bit higher, but the charge for the higher potencia is ridiculous.
> For a long time we endured 3.3 kW, but when you keep having to plan which appliances you can have on without tripping, it gets a bit much.


I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we've tripped our electricity from having too many things on at once - mainly putting the kettle on whilst I'm using my hairdryer!

That's probably because we have a gas cooker. Something I was very glad of this morning when the electricity was off for 3 hours from 8.00 - 11.00 am (not down to bad weather, Endesa were doing some work). At least I could boil water to make coffee and cook breakfast, and if the same happened in winter we could still keep warm. 

I never want to live in an all-electric house!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we've tripped our electricity from having too many things on at once - mainly putting the kettle on whilst I'm using my hairdryer!
> 
> That's probably because we have a gas cooker. Something I was very glad of this morning when the electricity was off for 3 hours from 8.00 - 11.00 am (not down to bad weather, Endesa were doing some work). At least I could boil water to make coffee and cook breakfast, and if the same happened in winter we could still keep warm.
> 
> I never want to live in an all-electric house!


3.3 was meant for holiday homes, apparently, though why they think holiday makers don't want to cook,have a heater, TV etc on, I don't know.
Eventually,according to my supplier,3.3 will be phased out .the minimum should be 5.75
At the moment ,some use stronger fuses, illegal and unsafe.
When a smart meter is installed, as they will be all over Spain, the incorporated ICP will override it and only the contracted power will be supplied, so, a lot of tripping!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> 3.3 was meant for holiday homes, apparently, though why they think holiday makers don't want to cook,have a heater, TV etc on, I don't know.
> Eventually,according to my supplier,3.3 will be phased out .the minimum should be 5.75
> At the moment ,some use stronger fuses, illegal and unsafe.
> When a smart meter is installed, as they will be all over Spain, the incorporated ICP will override it and only the contracted power will be supplied, so, a lot of tripping!


I already have a smart meter, have had for more than a year, and an ICP before that. The electricity doesn't trip any more often now than it did before they were installed - probably, as I said, because we use gas for cooking and most of the heating. The electrician who supplied our boletin when we had some work done to upgrade wiring and instal the new meter box prior to changing the contract in my name confirmed that 3.45kw (which is the minimum for new contracts now, according to him - I know it's not much different to 3.3kw but I suppose we should be accurate) is perfectly adequate if one has a gas cooker.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

extranjero said:


> 3.3 was meant for holiday homes, apparently, though why they think holiday makers don't want to cook,have a heater, TV etc on, I don't know.
> Eventually,according to my supplier,3.3 will be phased out .the minimum should be 5.75
> At the moment ,some use stronger fuses, illegal and unsafe.
> When a smart meter is installed, as they will be all over Spain, the incorporated ICP will override it and only the contracted power will be supplied, so, a lot of tripping!



This is, unfortunately, not true.

Many of the older homes started on 3.3 as that was all they needed then - they didn't have hobs, ovens or air conditioning like we have today. All of the properties that I have in Spain are or were on 3.3 - we changed our main property to 5.75 almost as soon as we could.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> This is, unfortunately, not true.
> 
> Many of the older homes started on 3.3 as that was all they needed then - they didn't have hobs, ovens or air conditioning like we have today. All of the properties that I have in Spain are or were on 3.3 - we changed our main property to 5.75 almost as soon as we could.


Believe it or not, many older homes have less than that. Earlier this year I helped a friend change the electricity contract on the house she'd inherited from her brother. He bought it from a Spanish family, had it totally rewired but by a British electrician and didn't get a boletin (big mistake). He didn't change the contract from the previous owner's name either, just the billing. His sister just carried that on at first, but then her Spanish bank was taken over and they messed up changing over the direct debits, so she needed to get the contract changed and set up a new DD with the new bank.

When I looked at the old bills, the potencia was 1.5kw!!!!! We used the same electrician as I'd had (a Spanish one) to get the boletin for her, and he checked whether she was using a gas or electric cooker before issuing the boletin for 3.45kw (it's gas). So maybe they are operating a system already whereby if the house is all electric, you don't get a boletin for less than 5.75 kw.

A lot of the houses around here, though, don't have an oven of any description, just a gas hob (or sometimes a kind of camping hob connected to a gas bottle) and some have no heating at all except for maybe one of those (very dangerous) braziers that go under a table. I even see houses and apartments for sale or rent which have been completely reformed, but the kitchen has no oven. There is no way that any Spanish Government is going to impose a minimum 5.75kw potencia on millions of low income Spanish families who just don't need it, it would be electoral suicide.


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## villamarre (Oct 19, 2012)

dont forget that a lot of the new smart meters have not been programmed correctly yet as the program to roll them out nationwide keeps getting put back,and they have not installed the full infrastructure to be able to program them remotely.The standing charge is costed perKW/per day so more potencia = higher prorata cost.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> So maybe they are operating a system already whereby if the house is all electric, you don't get a boletin for less than 5.75 kw.



It doesn't actually matter what the boletin says provided it is for more potencia than you actually need.

What the boletin does is to say the MAXIMUM potencia that the installation can carry. If you want less, no problem.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I see an investigation is under way to find out if there has been "manipulation" in the energy market after the "suspicious" rise in the wholesale price of electricity in the third quarter of this year:-http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2014/10/10/actualidad/1412943310_559742.html

Another example (as if we needed one) of how privatisation and the "free" market benefits consumers? Just means the energy companies have the freedom to rip us all off, as far as I can see.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I see an investigation is under way to find out if there has been "manipulation" in the energy market after the "suspicious" rise in the wholesale price of electricity in the third quarter of this year:-http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2014/10/10/actualidad/1412943310_559742.html
> 
> Another example (as if we needed one) of how privatisation and the "free" market benefits consumers? Just means the energy companies have the freedom to rip us all off, as far as I can see.


And you thought you might be getting away from all that by leaving the UK?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> And you thought you might be getting away from all that by leaving the UK?


Er, no - I think I knew that the creeping tentacles of globalisation had reached this far.

They've got their own investigation going on in the UK


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6f459062-133c-11e4-925a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3Fp6H44rW


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Er, no - I think I knew that the creeping tentacles of globalisation had reached this far.
> 
> They've got their own investigation going on in the UK


What is the betting that nobody will be brought to book? To think that many Brits are/were astounded to hear about the 'brown-envelopes' of Spain!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I see an investigation is under way to find out if there has been "manipulation" in the energy market after the "suspicious" rise in the wholesale price of electricity in the third quarter of this year:-http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2014/10/10/actualidad/1412943310_559742.html
> 
> Another example (as if we needed one) of how privatisation and the "free" market benefits consumers? Just means the energy companies have the freedom to rip us all off, as far as I can see.


Well, electricity in the UK has been renationalised after its privatisation.
Unfortunately though by the French Government, major shareholders of EDF which owns our power stations and supplies much of our electricity.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, electricity in the UK has been renationalised after its privatisation.
> Unfortunately though by the French Government, major shareholders of EDF which owns our power stations and supplies much of our electricity.


True - I wonder how UKIP would sort that one out? If the UK did ever vote to leave the EU, maybe the foreign owned energy companies would double the prices, just out of spite!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> True - I wonder how UKIP would sort that one out? If the UK did ever vote to leave the EU, maybe the foreign owned energy companies would double the prices, just out of spite!


Or cut off supplies to keep them in line, like Russia did to Ukraine a few years ago


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> True - I wonder how UKIP would sort that one out? If the UK did ever vote to leave the EU, maybe the foreign owned energy companies would double the prices, just out of spite!


Canadian pension funds, Iberdrola and companies franchised by the French Government own most of our water supplies.

It is dawning on me that we in the UK will never be in a position to regain control over our major utilities. How can we? Go to war with France, Spain and Canada?? 

People have no choice other than to use whichever water company grabbed the contract for their area so paying for water is a kind of indirect tax.

And people still can't see the harm that the Thatcher Government and its free market policies, carried on by Blair and still half-heartedly by Miliband, have done to the UK Produce the facts, they choose to ignore them and trot out the same old claptrap..

But as some astute commentator pointed out when discussing the UKIP vote, people rarely vote with their brains...it's a gut instinct, an emotional decision, impervious to facts and reality.
It works for both Left and Right. Tony Benn, a very rich socialist, worked against what he would surely have seen as his 'class' interests.
At the other end of the scale, Sandra and I and I'm sure many posters on this Forum did the same.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> It works for both Left and Right. Tony Benn, a very rich socialist, worked against what he would surely have seen as his 'class' interests.
> At the other end of the scale, Sandra and I and I'm sure many posters on this Forum did the same.


Nope - never have. I have always supported the rights of the common person with, possibly, some bias towards the feminist.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Nope - never have. I have always supported the rights of the common person with, possibly, some bias towards the feminist.


That's the point I was making, Baldy. 

We supported a Party that advocated many things that were against our interests as business owners...higher taxes and trade union rights, for instance.
A decision based on values not logic.


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## Penelope31 (Oct 12, 2014)

We only have 3.3 and therefore don't use an electric kettle. We have no air conditioning, a wood burner for heating and a gas hob. We do however use microwave, hairdryer, fan assisted oven and washing machine. We have an ICP and it does trip, usually when I try and use two appliances at once, but its manageable. I have been told, because we live in the Campo, it would be difficult to upgrade, but its part of a simpler, less wasteful way of life out here...


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Penelope31 said:


> We only have 3.3 and therefore don't use an electric kettle. We have no air conditioning, a wood burner for heating and a gas hob. We do however use microwave, hairdryer, fan assisted oven and washing machine. We have an ICP and it does trip, usually when I try and use two appliances at once, but its manageable. I have been told, because we live in the Campo, it would be difficult to upgrade, but its part of a simpler, less wasteful way of life out here...


But a very inconvenient way of life.
Of course it's possible to upgrade- at a cost!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We only have 3.3 and use a kettle even when the washing machine is on. The only time it trips is if the m-i-l whacks on a 3 kw fire at the same time or my sister is here and users a 2.5kw hair dryer (she has so little hair it would dry naturally in 5 minutes) when the kettle is on.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We upgraded from 3.3 to 4.6 and it cost about 60€. It's just a case of fitting a new ICP I think, it doesn't matter where you live. It was definitely worth it, it hasn't tripped since!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> We only have 3.3 and use a kettle even when the washing machine is on. The only time it trips is if the m-i-l whacks on a 3 kw fire at the same time or my sister is here and users a 2.5kw hair dryer (she has so little hair it would dry naturally in 5 minutes) when the kettle is on.


Same here. This morning I had the kettle and the toaster on at the same time, plus the washing machine, the TV was on and of course the fridge freezer too. How many more things could I be doing at the same time anyway?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> We upgraded from 3.3 to 4.6 and it cost about 60€. It's just a case of fitting a new ICP I think, it doesn't matter where you live. It was definitely worth it, it hasn't tripped since!


The upgrade may have cost you €60 but how much have the standing charges gone up and has your unit cost increased?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Usually there is far more to upgrading an electricity supply than fitting an ICP switch.
A boletin is often required, and possibly some rewiring,not cheap, and a lot more than 60 euros.
The cost is often in the hundreds.
Some put a stronger fuse in, illegal and potentially dangerous.when fitted with a smart meter the supply will revert to the amount originally contracted before stealing electricity.
Our standing charge has more than doubled.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Usually there is far more to upgrading an electricity supply than fitting an ICP switch.
> A boletin is often required, and possibly some rewiring,not cheap, and a lot more than 60 euros.
> The cost is often in the hundreds.
> Some put a stronger fuse in, illegal and potentially dangerous.when fitted with a smart meter the supply will revert to the amount originally contracted before stealing electricity.
> Our standing charge has more than doubled.


Oh well, that's what we paid in 2008. We got a new contract and someone came round and fiddled with the box for a couple of minutes. I suppose it must have got more complicated now.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Sorry if I missed it before but who does a boletin normally, just a regular electrician or a specialist?
I have no doubt we will need to up the potencia when we move.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pazcat said:


> Sorry if I missed it before but who does a boletin normally, just a regular electrician or a specialist?
> I have no doubt we will need to up the potencia when we move.


Boletins can ONLY be issued by regulated professionals (gas, water, electric etc.). A 'regular' electrician *IS *a specialist.


A good way to see if your electrician (for example) is any good is to ask if he/she can issue boletins - and ask to see proof!

If they can't, then they should not be operating in Spain (IMHO).


[let's try and get rid of the cowboys!]


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification, I was over thinking it. 

One would consider a mechanic to be a specialist too yet they can't issue an ITV so I wanted to make sure it wasn't a specific agency or department


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## Swerve (Jun 29, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Or cut off supplies to keep them in line, like Russia did to Ukraine a few years ago


Russia doesn't need all the atomic bombs now. All it has to do is turn all our gas off and freeze us to death.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Boletins can ONLY be issued by regulated professionals (gas, water, electric etc.). A 'regular' electrician *IS *a specialist.
> 
> 
> A good way to see if your electrician (for example) is any good is to ask if he/she can issue boletins - and ask to see proof!
> ...


just because they can issue paperwork doesn't actually make them any good. I have encountered many Spanish electricians during my years here & have yet to actually find one whose standard of work isn't dangerous.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> just because they can issue paperwork doesn't actually make them any good. I have encountered many Spanish electricians during my years here & have yet to actually find one whose standard of work isn't dangerous.


I will happily introduce you to the good electricians, plumbers etc. that I use!

I suspect that many feel, just because it's different to how things are done in UK, then it must be bad/wrong or dangerous. (not saying that you think like this, Gus )

I keep hearing many Brits complaining that ring-mains are far safer than the radial system used here - I've given up trying to explain that it's not. Ring-mains were introduced in UK just after the war to save copper - it's as simple as that!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

When you take the cover off of something that a boletin issuing 'professional' has just wired & find wires twisted together & covered with tape it is normally all downhill from there.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Higher energy bills are definitely not confined to Spain_-


UK energy bill crisis looms as consumers pay more despite using less | Business | The Guardian


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## mlka (Sep 5, 2009)

Just had my first bill for our apartment in Barcelona.....

534 Euros for 3 months!!!!

I could not believe it.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> Higher energy bills are definitely not confined to Spain_-
> 
> 
> UK energy bill crisis looms as consumers pay more despite using less | Business | The Guardian


Spain is amongst the top 5 most expensive for electricity in Europe.
Another thing-When you upgrade your electricity potencia , the standing charge shouldn't be more than doubled!


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## guitareth (Aug 17, 2009)

*3.3kW is not aunusable at all!*



Lynn R said:


> Same here. This morning I had the kettle and the toaster on at the same time, plus the washing machine, the TV was on and of course the fridge freezer too. How many more things could I be doing at the same time anyway?


Similar experience here. Have been living permanently in our Spanish home for four years now with a 3.3kW system. Often have electric cooker, washing machine, kettle, pool pump, and two computers all running at once and have only once had the power supply trip, and that was when we were entertaining and put on a 2nd electric cooker to prepare some food!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

guitareth said:


> Similar experience here. Have been living permanently in our Spanish home for four years now with a 3.3kW system. Often have electric cooker, washing machine, kettle, pool pump, and two computers all running at once and have only once had the power supply trip, and that was when we were entertaining and put on a 2nd electric cooker to prepare some food!


A lot of people can do this until an ICP is fitted!!


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## entity1 (Oct 18, 2014)

^ Exactly, once they get around to fitting an ICP, you really will be on 3.3kW, and then, unfortunately, you will be screwed with all those appliances!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

entity1 said:


> ^ Exactly, once they get around to fitting an ICP, you really will be on 3.3kW, and then, unfortunately, you will be screwed with all those appliances!


But being limited to 3.3 kW is a great driver to energy economy. We manage very well but do cook by gas and have solar hot water or gas heated water in winter.

Once you become conscious that the power will trip off if you exceed the limit, you start to consider ways to prevent that happening. Two excellent appliances are a slow cooker (uses about 1.2 units over ten hours while cooking a delicious meal - even the toughest/cheapest meats become fork tender) and a Halogen oven - great for roasts and things that need dry heat, again very economical and neither of these appliances heat the kitchen very much which also makes them useful in the summer.


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## entity1 (Oct 18, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> But being limited to 3.3 kW is a great driver to energy economy. We manage very well but do cook by gas and have solar hot water or gas heated water in winter.
> 
> Once you become conscious that the power will trip off if you exceed the limit, you start to consider ways to prevent that happening. Two excellent appliances are a slow cooker (uses about 1.2 units over ten hours while cooking a delicious meal - even the toughest/cheapest meats become fork tender) and a Halogen oven - great for roasts and things that need dry heat, again very economical and neither of these appliances heat the kitchen very much which also makes them useful in the summer.


Of course you have to do those things when you're limited to 3.3kW!! It doesn't mean everyone wants to, and forcing people to do things is not right.

3.3kW is ridiculously small for a family, and people in the UK would never accept such a limitation!

However, people are conditioned (re: previous dictatorships) to be obidient in Spain and Italy, so they have to make do with stupid situations like this!

People should be able to decide whether they want to be frugal and 'inventive', or whether they want to use the appliances that they've paid for.

3.3kW......yeah right!!! ....compared to the average 100A supply in the UK, which is roughly 25kW!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

entity1 said:


> Of course you have to do those things when you're limited to 3.3kW!! It doesn't mean everyone wants to, and forcing people to do things is not right.
> 
> 3.3kW is ridiculously small for a family, and people in the UK would never accept such a limitation!
> 
> ...


People are not forced to use the lower tariff - it is personal choice. It is a tariff that is set by the government and acts as a control on the electricity companies so that people with very little means are prevented from running up huge bills and be at the mercy of the electricity companies' debt collectors. They OUGHT to have something similar in UK


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## entity1 (Oct 18, 2014)

^ What a load of rubbish!

To have a higher capacity electricity supply, you need to pay substantial extra charges! Even then the maximum kW is still low (compared to 25kW in the UK, for a 'free' supply)

And the system is just designed to be able to cut people off instantly for not paying their bill, as in the past the companies have had a lot of problems getting the money from people, so this is just another way to persecute the poor.

Many you're a rich homeowner with life's luxuries around you, but not everyone can afford to live so comfortably.

By the way, in the UK, they force you to install a pre-paid meter for not paying your bill, and can break into your house with a locksmith to do so, and very few people manage to run up "huge bills" as you put it :/


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

entity1 -at last, a bit of common sense!


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Lets not get into a p*ssing contest on this... 
In the UK the supply isnt 'free' that's what the standing charge is all about, just as it is in Spain. 
The difference however is that the Standing charge in Spain is out of all proprtion to that of other countries and is calculated on the *contracted* maximum supply. I've experienced a 3.3Kw suppply and all its frustrations and those that say they have no tripping problems with runing a cold fill washing machine, an oven and a kettle simultaneously are either very lucky or have a Master Trip Circuit Breaker or ICP fitted that is of a value well in excess of that which should be fitted. 

Do the math... a kettle typically 1.8Kw; cold fill washing machine... maybe as high as 3Kw whilst heating the water, or 750W when just motoring; domestic hot water tank typically 1.5Kw; those GU10 downlighters so beloved of Brit builders 50 watts each (I have 6 in the kichen and 7 in the bathroom... and once you get into electricity for room heating and cooling you are talking of up to another 3Kw per unit... 

Our house is electrically active 24/7 so we contracted a 9.2Kw supply when we had to renew our contract with Endesa; 3.3Kw just wouldn't / couldn't cut it... *the consequence of this however is that if I use no electricity at all over a two month period, I will still owe the supplier 62€ plus IVA at 21% making a total of 75€.* The charge for the actual consumption is the same whether one is frugal or lavish and is probably on a par with or perhaps a little more expensive than the UK...

The UK has provision in place to protect the elderly and the sick from being cut-off and for those on low or fixed income prepayment cards are available. Spain has no such provision; its a case of pay the bills or else...


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I really can't see the point of going to Spain for a so called better life and then spending all the time thinking how you can be more frugal. At the end of your life, then is the time to enjoy not to save it. There are no pockets in shrouds.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Calas felices said:


> I really can't see the point of going to Spain for a so called better life and then spending all the time thinking how you can be more frugal. At the end of your life, then is the time to enjoy not to save it. There are no pockets in shrouds.


Hmmm.....

I don't consider mid 50's to be "at the end of my life".


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Facts based on the here and now and what we would have paid in UK based on our old address (all converted to Euros at today's rate of 1.26):
UK currently the standing charge= €0.3276 per day 61 days (our last billing period) = €19.98
UK currently the rate per unit = €0.1911 per kWh Our last consumption was 762 kWh = €145.65
So total bill at UK rates = €165.63

Actual using Spanish rates on the 3.3.kW tariff:
Standing charge: 3.3.kW x 61 days x €0.135031 = €27.18
Usage; 762kWh @ €0.123099/kWh = €93.80
So total bill at Spanish rates = €120.98

I haven't included taxes (VAT/IVA etc) because there are outwith the question. So where is Spain a rip-off? In UK you pay for a much larger power capacity than you need. In Spain you pay more according to your needs and usage. Leaving aside the standing charge, even the per unit cost is lower (a third lower!). Nope I am quite happy with 3.3 kW - it suits our needs and not at all a problem especially with using low energy bulbs (many supplied free by the Electricity company!).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> I really can't see the point of going to Spain for a so called better life and then spending all the time thinking how you can be more frugal. At the end of your life, then is the time to enjoy not to save it. There are no pockets in shrouds.


It is not being frugal. For many of us who were brought up in earlier times it is a case of not being wasteful. One doesn't spend all one's time thinking about it, it is part of life - for example, when you leave a room unoccupied, you turn off the light - it is automatic. When you have finished using the stove you turn off the burners/rings/oven. If you just a pair of panties to wash, you do them by hand you don't turn on a washing machine. It has nothing to do with being frugal, it is just common sense and it helps the planet a bit as well!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

My daughter in the UKs combined electricity/ gas bill for the last quarter was £127 for a family of four.
They are neither frugal nor wasteful.
My bill for 2 months for two of us was 147 euros, just for electricity, we are also neither frugal nor wasteful.
I know whose bill I would prefer to pay!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

From our experience electric is more expensive in Spain. These stats seem to back it up.

Britons pay less for energy than people in 16 out of 22 European countries | This is Money


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Facts based on the here and now and what we would have paid in UK based on our old address (all converted to Euros at today's rate of 1.26):
> UK currently the standing charge= €0.3276 per day 61 days (our last billing period) = €19.98
> UK currently the rate per unit = €0.1911 per kWh Our last consumption was 762 kWh = €145.65
> So total bill at UK rates = €165.63
> ...


I can't possibly remember how much energy we consumed in the UK, but I do know that when we left in 2006 I was paying 50 pounds per month for a dual fuel tariff. My combined spending on electricity and gas here in Spain has only just reached that level (euro equivalent) after 8 years, and I seem to remember hearing there have been some increases in the UK since then (understatement of the year). My sister's gas bill alone is 80 pounds a month for a 3 bed semi detached, and a friend who has a holiday home here paid a 600 pound dual fuel bill for the winter quarter. She lives in a 3 bed semi too (family of four) in Lincolnshire, so they are not in the Scottish Highlands or anywhere else with a particularly harsh climate.

I am surprised to hear anyone praising the pre-payment meter system in the UK. It is well known that the people who have them have to pay much more for their energy, per unit, than those without them do, and they are denied access to the cheapest tariffs. So the poorest people end up paying more for their electricity and gas than the richest do. That does not seem very praiseworthy to me.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> From our experience electric is more expensive in Spain. These stats seem to back it up.
> 
> Britons pay less for energy than people in 16 out of 22 European countries | This is Money


Not exactly a very good source article. The first histogram is nothing to do with the price of gas - it is a comparison of the taxes paid.

When we look at residential electricity prices, it gives as Spain's entry into the table, Madrid at c€24.62 including taxes per kWh - mine for 762 kh including everything (i.e. total bill) is €157.68 for 762 kWh which works out at c€20.69 or about c€4 less. This whole thing is dependant upon statistics provided by the regulatory authority for the Austrian electricity and gas markets, and is, together with the E-Control Commission, responsible for monitoring, supporting and regulating the implementation of the Austrian energy market liberalisation. In other words they are not independent - they have their own agenda and are presenting statistics to suit their own needs and to support their case.

Always be doubtful about anyone who has a vested interest:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/comparison-sites-under-fire-over-072536870.html


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

If there continue to be mishaps affecting power stations in the UK, those living there may have no option but to rethink their profligate use of energy:-


Didcot B power plant blaze stokes blackout fears | Business | The Guardian

This extract struck me as particularly worrying for a country the Government claims has no energy worries:-


"Davey previously said Britain may have to use “last resort” measures to avoid winter blackouts in the next two years. The government is paying businesses to shut down at peak times so that there is enough energy for households."


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> If there continue to be mishaps affecting power stations in the UK, those living there may have no option but to rethink their profligate use of energy:-
> 
> 
> Didcot B power plant blaze stokes blackout fears | Business | The Guardian
> ...


That is reminiscent of Heath's "Three-day week" and rostered power cuts back in the 70s. I had car battery chargers connected to 12v batteries and low voltage wiring round the house connected to 12v lights (all switchable just like the normal mains lighting) so that we could move about in safety - such as to feed the baby, and go to work at 4 in the morning. Heath, another Tory twit - they have a history of having leaders who might have sounded good but were not a lot of good , at least not for the people or the country in general Macmillan, Eden, Home (or was it Hume) Heath, MT, Major and now this Camoron.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

In Spain we paid average €120 pm in winter for electric. €650 logs for burner winter months. and a couple of gas bottles pm. The house was never warm enough, especially in the bedrooms. UK our gas is £96 pm (averaged out through year) for a 4 bed detached with 16 radiators. £29 pm for electric. £350 for logs. We are not frugal, the online accounts show that we are above average users. Infact we have to be careful to not have the CH on too late in the evening or it is too hot to sleep. It is a very solid house.

All the stats from wherever you look confirm Spain is one of the most expensive places in Europe for electric, try comparing like with like.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> That is reminiscent of Heath's "Three-day week" and rostered power cuts back in the 70s. I had car battery chargers connected to 12v batteries and low voltage wiring round the house connected to 12v lights (all switchable just like the normal mains lighting) so that we could move about in safety - such as to feed the baby, and go to work at 4 in the morning. Heath, another Tory twit - they have a history of having leaders who might have sounded good but were not a lot of good , at least not for the people or the country in general Macmillan, Eden, Home (or was it Hume) Heath, MT, Major and now this Camoron.


I remember the 3-day week! I was in my first job at the time, in an accountancy firm. They were far too mean to shut down for the extra 2 days so we had to work by the light of hurricane lamps. Of course in those days we weren't reliant on computers (didn't even have electric typewriters) so we could actually do a lot more work than we'd be able to if it were to happen today.

At home, as I remember we relied on candles when the power was off. We had a coal fire anyway so at least we didn't freeze, and gas for cooking and water heating. A lot like here, come to think of it. I never, never want to be totally reliant on electricity for energy needs in my home.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> In Spain we paid average €120 pm in winter for electric. €650 logs for burner winter months. and a couple of gas bottles pm. The house was never warm enough, especially in the bedrooms. UK our gas is £96 pm (averaged out through year) for a 4 bed detached with 16 radiators. £29 pm for electric. £350 for logs. We are not frugal, the online accounts show that we are above average users. Infact we have to be careful to not have the CH on too late in the evening or it is too hot to sleep. It is a very solid house.
> 
> All the stats from wherever you look confirm Spain is one of the most expensive places in Europe for electric, try comparing like with like.


You pay how much for logs‽ We pay €100 per tonne cut to length, delivered and stacked in our logstore two floors below street level, all well seasoned olive wood. On average we use less than 1½ tonne per season and that keeps ground floor, first floor and attic warm. We currently have about 5 tonnes in store and used in order of purchase so we know that is even more seasoned that when it was sold to us. Some that was in the store when we bought the house was nearly 30 years old.


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