# Why Expats struggle in Spain



## SteveHall

This is a reply I gave to “Ronny” many years ago on an expats forum. The years ago on but my thoughts remain the same. It was referring to Torrevieja but in truth it applies to any expat area in Spain ......and probably anywhere else where expats are trying to start a new life. 


“Hi everybody. Every week on the various forums relating to Spain there is a question from hopeful couples in their thirties, often with a child or two asking about jobs and schools in Spain. Do any of these families make a proper go of it or do they just end up hand-to-mouth.

I ask because the more I see of Spain the more I thank my fate is in the UK.
I have a UK income.
Ronny”


Now, that's what I call an interesting question. I get perhaps 15/20 people every month asking me questions like:

1) Will I get a job as a bowling alley technician?
2) Would you tell me everything you know about Spain?
3) Will I like Spain?
4) What's the best part of Spain to live in?
5) How little Spanish can I get by on? Is English enough?

Many of them start with "Hi, my name's X and I'm thinking perhaps, maybe, possibly, at some time in the future of moving to Spain or maybe Malta, Florida, Greece or ....if.......... I send them a list of URLs, advise them to join expat forums and do some SERIOUS preparation. A lot of them have children and many have absolutely no idea whatsoever re education, Spanish, Spain itself, job opportunities etc etc. I usually also tell them the FACTS. There are very few employed (as opposed to self-employed) opportunities. If you do not speak Spanish the opportunities at getting much above the minimum wage are extremely limited. You only need to see the vacancies section in the English language papers to recognise that. Nevertheless thousands come every year looking for a land of milk and honey. Whilst the grass maybe greener here in Spain (figuratively at least!) it most definitely needs cutting.


I have now had some 700 people who work with me / for me so I meet up with a lot of these types of people. Ronny, you are 100% correct in your underlying assumption that many do not make a fist of it. I can give many reasons.

1) Firstly and most importantly they have not done enough, if any, homework. They have absolutely no comprehension that for example someone who was, say, a dental receptionist in the UK is going to find it almost impossible to get the same job over here.

2) They have absolutely no comprehension of how expensive Spain is. I am sure I speak for many when I say that I find Spain is now only marginally less expensive than the UK for many things.

3) They make very little effort to learn any Spanish. A hobby-horse of mine so I won't continue. NOWHERE in Spain is English universally spoken. Even in Benidorm, Torremolinos, Marbella or Torrevieja, Spanish is still the official language. NOT speaking Spanish will massively harm your chances of getting work. FACT.

4) They quite bluntly do not have a work appetite. Somehow they expect to work fewer hours for more money than they did in the UK.

5) Many were losers in the UK. Somehow they think if they come to Spain and do all the things they did wrong in the UK they will succeed. It's pure folly to think if you do the same things you failed with before that you will get a different result if you continue to do them wrongly over here.

6) On the same track many are quitters. (Winners never quit and quitters never win.)

7) As they have done so little preparation re 1, 2 and 3 that when a problem happens they are not ready for it and struggle to overcome whatever the problem is.


Can people make a go of it? Yes, absolutely many of my guys have a lifestyle they could never have dreamt of in the UK. Some earn serious money - very serious money in some cases. Many others give up and either flee back to the UK or mess around with airport runs, villa cleaning etc etc trying to eke out a living until they win the lottery (Spanish or otherwise!). I'll give anybody a chance - that's my style BUT at the first meeting I know pretty well who's a talker and who's a walker. I know most times who will succeed, who will survive and who will fail. Equally, many have absolutely no direction whatsoever. I am fortunate that I am not down to my last five bob. I'm not into flash cars or a fancy lifestyle. So, I often say to the people who don't seem cut out for what I have to offer, "Is there anything that you would like to do, if I were to fund a new project with you?" Unbelievably, most have absolutely no idea. So if I help them set it up, get the papers in order and even fund it they wouldn't know what they wanted!!! ¡No digo nada! On the other hand, I mentioned it to a couple the other day and the lady immediately came up with what I believe was a very credible business proposition for here in Spain.

Sorry if the answer is a bit long winded but it is one of those "meaning of life questions" where the answer is more likely to be observations and opinions rather than "the police station is at Calle Mayor 36 and the telephone number is 9........

Kind regards
Steve”

Here is another and earlier reply to a similar question:


Message:
I agree with Bob 100%. I have over 400 people who work with me over here on various projects and I am constantly in need of quality people. By the same token I am constantly amazed at people's job expectations - would you be happy if you rang, say, your dentist in Derby and found that the receptionist spoke only Spanish? So why should a dental receptionist expect to find work in a Spanish dental surgery? "Oh, well I could learn." ¡No digo nada!

FACTS there are almost NO permanent employee positions with contracts UNLESS you speak Spanish FLUENTLY. Usually, even then FLUENCY in another language French, Norwegian or German is also required. That is why you see so many Belgian and Dutch people working for estate agents etc. From birth they have been comfortable in 3 or 4 languages.

FACTS - my two secretaries are German and Dutch. One speaks Dutch, German, English and Spanish and the other speaks German, Spanish, French and English.

When I last interviewed for a secretary I got over 70 applications. Over 30 were from English speakers BUT only 3 had the MINIMUM number of languages clearly stated in the advert - three. My short list was a Finn, two Dutch girls, a Belgian guy (who spoke SIX languages fluently) and a Norwegian. These people were applying for a position with a contract, 30 days’ paid holiday etc. Everything that so many people crave for.

Incidentally in the Valencian Community only 10% of all new positions advertised last year were with permanent contracts and that is the Spanish and not the ex-pat market place. Do not also forget that Spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe and that a lot of the best jobs in Spain are "word of mouth."

That's not to say that there is NO work. There is - this is Klondike at the moment BUT you dig your own gold. 90%+ of all the ex-pats over here are self-employed. There is as much work as you want in the building trade and in sales. I am frequently frustrated that I cannot start more projects. Why? The lack of quality staff. Corporation bus drivers with 20 years experience are NOT in demand over here BUT if the same man can sell or use his hands then he has a chance.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results!"


PS As an aside, two weeks ago I placed an advert which was written in Spanish (only- no translation) on an expats forum. It offers a guaranteed work contract, a realistic salary and everything else that goes with a Spanish permanent contract. To date, it has been viewed 437 times. I have had one person who wanted to know why it was written in Spanish and one person who failed to turn up for an interview twice! I know I would have had more applicants if I had written in English or Swedish BUT absolute fluency in spoken and written Spanish is a pre-requisite so it saved me all the “I get by” dreamers.


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## XTreme

Right on the money Steve!


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## Chica

Bravo:thumb:


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## XTreme

Chica said:


> Bravo:thumb:


Yes I am rather good aren't I Chica?


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## Chica

XTreme said:


> Yes I am rather good aren't I Chica?


Hehehe.......do you speak 4 or 5 different languages then?


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## Tallulah

Steve, you ever seen that movie "The Business" - set in 80's southern Spain? I imagine you as the "Playboy" character. Well, almost!!


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## SteveHall

No, I'm just a quiet small-town boy sitting home having a P.E.E. as I do 6/7 nights every week. No flash lifestyle for me.


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## Xose

Tallulah said:


> Steve, you ever seen that movie "The Business" - set in 80's southern Spain? I imagine you as the "Playboy" character. Well, almost!!


What, CCC - surely not :bolt:


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## Tallulah

SteveHall said:


> No, I'm just a quiet small-town boy sitting home having a P.E.E. as I do 6/7 nights every week. No flash lifestyle for me.


All work and no play makes Stevie a dull boy. You need to get out and treat yourself once in a while with all this hard work and modding you do!!


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## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> I know I would have had more applicants if I had written in English or Swedish BUT absolute fluency in spoken and written Spanish is a pre-requisite so it saved me all the “I get by” dreamers.



Absolutely true.

I have met MANY expats that think they can get by with Si, No and Cerveza por favor :lol:

They also claim to understand Spanish despite being able to speak the language.
Something that I find totally incomprehensible.

The TRUTH is that most Spaniards cannot stand expats that come here to live and yet make little or no effort to speak Spanish - FACT

I know of several expats that have lived here for years and yet they cannot put a single sentence together in Spanish and the locals are digusted by this - FACT

Dave


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## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> Steve, you ever seen that movie "The Business" - set in 80's southern Spain? I imagine you as the "Playboy" character. Well, almost!!


This is really Steve.......










This is Stravinsky.....










This is me.....


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## Tallulah

hehehe! That's hilarious!! Please do one for us girls now - and be nice!! Me, Jo, Chica, Sue, etc...


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## Tallulah

Xose said:


> What, CCC - surely not :bolt:


oooh Xose, I just got that! Rude boy!!!


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## SteveHall

Tallulah said:


> hehehe! That's hilarious!! Please do one for us girls now - and be nice!! Me, Jo, Chica, Sue, etc...


I have a horrible feeling that you will come to regret that comment. Don't fret I can always delete any excesses. 

Now XTreme, we do not want any topless (or worse!) photos and remember that some of us are of a nervous disposition.


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## Tallulah

ooops! You're probably right, Steve. XT's behaving himself so far, I'm just waiting for the slap down!!! 

ps - Never seen a photo of Strav - he's not that geeky, is he?!?!


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## Twain

My experience here is that in Madrid it was almost impossible to get any service when talking english. Even trying hard with maps didn't help.
But they did speak to me - in a very upset spanish tone.
On the countryside it was a bit easyer. And even sometimes I met people that was quite open and talked alot with me in their own kind of english.
Down at the costa del sol it was back to the silent spanish types again for the most part.

And I'll admit that I haven't yet learned spanish but intend to take serious lessons in a class before going this time aswell as probably find a teacher when I arrive to learn more before I can manage on myself to get it better (fluent? that would take some time).


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## SteveHall

XTreme - NO nudity, NO donkeys and NO "toys" of ANY description! 

We are giving you the benefit of the doubt but I fear my "delete" finger may be working overtime this evening!


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## jojo

what about the kids.... everyone thinks its a better way of life for kids in Spain... well maybe it is, but once your kids hit a certain age, they may not appreciate your idea of a better way of life, they may well think they had the best life with firends, family and familiar lifestyle in the UK. Ok, so they can be bribed with a pool in the garden and wall to wall sunshine, but once the novelty has worn off, they want what they had at "home"

Sorry if this sounds full of angst and heart-felt! I've had "issues" with my little cherrubs this evening. Who will be in easyjets departure lounge if they so much as look at me the wrong way right now!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## SteveHall

Sorry, it's been a tough day. I am afraid that when it comes to kids I have little to add to any conversation other than grandchildren are the reward for 18 years of parenthood. Perhaps you will be Glamorous Granny Mark 2 soon, Jojo and you will look back with nostalgia on the childhooods of your clan. ¡Estoy contigo!

"Having one child makes you a parent. Having two or three makes you a referee."


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## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> what about the kids.... everyone thinks its a better way of life for kids in Spain... well maybe it is, but once your kids hit a certain age, they may not appreciate your idea of a better way of life, they may well think they had the best life with firends, family and familiar lifestyle in the UK. Ok, so they can be bribed with a pool in the garden and wall to wall sunshine, but once the novelty has worn off, they want what they had at "home"
> 
> Sorry if this sounds full of angst and heart-felt! I've had "issues" with my little cherrubs this evening. Who will be in easyjets departure lounge if they so much as look at me the wrong way right now!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hiya Jo,

I have never heard it said that Spain is a better way of life for kids; its always the adults that say this. Well, thats my experience anyway and I often wonder if many of the adults know what they are talking about. OK so there is more sun that back home, but what else is there ?

Your friends and quite often your family (or parts of) are back home.

I imagine your kids miss their friends back home and a LOT.
It must be very difficult for them to make new friends here and I personally think it must be far easier for those who come here with very young children, as they will grow up here and Spanish will be their main language.

Keeping it real. Dave :juggle:


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## scharlack

jojo said:


> what about the kids.... everyone thinks its a better way of life for kids in Spain... well maybe it is, but once your kids hit a certain age, they may not appreciate your idea of a better way of life, they may well think they had the best life with firends, family and familiar lifestyle in the UK. Ok, so they can be bribed with a pool in the garden and wall to wall sunshine, but once the novelty has worn off, they want what they had at "home"
> 
> Sorry if this sounds full of angst and heart-felt! I've had "issues" with my little cherrubs this evening. Who will be in easyjets departure lounge if they so much as look at me the wrong way right now!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hey Jo,

As I am from S. America I find it interesting that imo most of the UK/Scand folks are in Spain for the weather and a bit of the more laid back atmosphere...

3 years ago (aka golden age!) I thought of going to the UK when I had a job offer in Reading, Berkshire, but I ended up going out with the girl of my life for the 1st time... so, it never happened (I mean the trip... as for the wedding... hell yeah, it did happen!)


What do the UK/Scand folks usually claim they "gained/benefited" from coming to Spain? There is loads of friends back home... there is people we adore... family, dear friends, those things you truly miss... and whether we agree or not imo the UK is one of the world's power so setting up a business and making decent money or getting a job may not be as hard as in Spain (?)

I am asking this now because I like to get different points of view.

Cheers... have a good weekend


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## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Steve, you ever seen that movie "The Business" - set in 80's southern Spain? I imagine you as the "Playboy" character. Well, almost!!



TALLULAH, DONT ENCOURAGE HIM!!!!! PLAYBOY???????????????????????????????????????

Jo xxx


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## SunnySpain

scharlack said:


> Hey Jo,
> 
> As I am from S. America I find it interesting that imo most of the UK/Scand folks are in Spain for the weather and a bit of the more laid back atmosphere...
> 
> 
> What do the UK/Scand folks usually claim they "gained/benefited" from coming to Spain? There is loads of friends back home... there is people we adore... family, dear friends, those things you truly miss... and whether we agree or not imo the UK is one of the world's power so setting up a business and making decent money or getting a job may not be as hard as in Spain (?)
> 
> I am asking this now because I like to get different points of view.
> 
> Cheers... have a good weekend



Exactly...apart from the "sun" and slightly cheaper lifestyle what do they gain ?

Some will have already or many others will almost certainly lose more than they have gained from the experience. Some will just enjoy the experience.

I say the above based on what I have seen when talking to other expats on the Costa's; although many expats in the North or even the centre of Spain have a very different way of life and most of them did not come to Spain purely to benefit from getting more "sun"

The expats that live in the centre and possibly more so the North of Spain, life is very different from that on the Costa's (South / South East).

I, for example, did not come to Spain purely for the weather, but rather I wanted a complete change in lifestyle and by that I mean adventure. To be able to explore a whole new country and to discover things that the average expat would simply never ever do.

The majority of expats don't know that Galicia, Cantabria, Pais Vasco or Asturias exist, nevermind what its like to eat Percebers, Fabada o Solomillo de Buey

Whereas those have experienced what I tend to call "Real Spain" understand all so well that many amazing places exist in Spain and some of the local food is actually very tasty (not just tortilla / spanish omelette)

That said, this is not a criticism of certain expats, but rather I happen to think that if an expats only reason to come to Spain is because they want more "sun" then more sun is exactly what they will have gained and not a lot else....

Dave :juggle:


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## Stravinsky

scharlack said:


> Hey Jo,
> 
> As I am from S. America I find it interesting that imo most of the UK/Scand folks are in Spain for the weather and a bit of the more laid back atmosphere...
> 
> 3 years ago (aka golden age!) I thought of going to the UK when I had a job offer in Reading, Berkshire, but I ended up going out with the girl of my life for the 1st time... so, it never happened (I mean the trip... as for the wedding... hell yeah, it did happen!)
> 
> 
> What do the UK/Scand folks usually claim they "gained/benefited" from coming to Spain? There is loads of friends back home... there is people we adore... family, dear friends, those things you truly miss... and whether we agree or not imo the UK is one of the world's power so setting up a business and making decent money or getting a job may not be as hard as in Spain (?)
> 
> I am asking this now because I like to get different points of view.
> 
> Cheers... have a good weekend


What did we gain?
Its strange you know, many people seem to come here to escape the UK. They found it a struggle so they thought it would be easier here. Those are the people I think that usually end up going back because at the end of the day its going to be the same old sh!t here, but warmer.

I came here for a different way of life ... plain and simple. Sure its nice that its sunny, but the lifestyle is so different in general.

I think sometimes people search too deep and take expatism too seriously


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## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> I came here for a different way of life ... plain and simple. Sure its nice that its sunny, but the lifestyle is so different in general.
> 
> I think sometimes people search too deep and take expatism too seriously


Interesting that you say that Strav, cos altho I came here for a different lifestyle, I've found that once the novelty wore off, things really aint much different here for me... as I've said many times before, I still have the same routines and life as I did in the UK, altho, I guess having children and the same commitments means I have to do the same things.

Jo xx


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## Tallulah

Stravinsky said:


> What did we gain?
> Its strange you know, many people seem to come here to escape the UK. They found it a struggle so they thought it would be easier here. Those are the people I think that usually end up going back because at the end of the day its going to be the same old sh!t here, but warmer.
> 
> I came here for a different way of life ... plain and simple. Sure its nice that its sunny, but the lifestyle is so different in general.
> 
> I think sometimes people search too deep and take expatism too seriously


OK, I'm gonna slap your wrist on this one. You have every reason to say that cos you came here as an early retiree so have a completely different viewpoint from others who have decided to come over, start a new life, raise a family, (hopefully) find work. 

This next bit is not directed at you,by the way - it's a general point....
Look, the whole damn world is in crisis. I still think although employment is thin on the ground, there are opportunities out there for those willing to fight and if the face fits, etc. You don't always have to be qualified, fluent in Spanish - I've seen the examples and for them it's worked out fine. It seems week in, week out, we have a see-saw going on here. Yes, come out try your luck, no don't - you're not fluent, there's no jobs, yes- you only need that one chance....there's never a definitive and you just can't advise people like that. There are so many different ways of defining a life/lifestyle and bringing in an income, etc. It's hard EVERYWHERE. Look deep inside yourself. What are you looking for at the end of the day? Be totally honest. Look to your assets/finances. Look to your talents. Can you work via a UK company whilst based here, paying taxes and registered here? I refuse - maybe just this evening - to see a black cloud.

So there.
Tally.xx


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## Stravinsky

jojo said:


> Interesting that you say that Strav, cos altho I came here for a different lifestyle, I've found that once the novelty wore off, things really aint much different here for me... as I've said many times before, I still have the same routines and life as I did in the UK, altho, I guess having children and the same commitments means I have to do the same things.
> 
> Jo xx


Yes. Its definately different for us, as we are early retirees and can basically do what we want. So if I want to jump on a plane on Monday back to the UK, thats what I'll do. If I want to drive to Huescar (Why would I?) tomorrow then I can. I could do that in the UK I guess as well, but then its cheaper here and I can be more or less sure the weathers going to be OK


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## mickybob

I'm very glad that I found this forum, the advice that you all so freely give is very welcome. People ask you a question, and you tell them the truth. I'm one of those people who wore the rose tinted glasses and thought that "things would be better in Spain". Now from all the threads that I have read I know, as Jo puts it, still washing, shopping, cooking to be done, just sunnier. This thread has realy been a good one. No, I dont think I could put my kids through having to learn a new language in a new school that doesnt speak their language. My kids are 14, 11 and 5. The youngest would probably cope, my wife wouldnt like the idea of learning Spanish. I would like too. It's my dream, not theirs, so it would be a nightmare for them and probably turn my dream sour. Jo, you tell of the hassle you have with tantrums and such. I dont want to have my kids leave when they are old enough becouse they dont like Dads dream. So I have made up my mind that that is all it is, a dream. I dont have "pots of money" and would have to scrape for a living. I'm not happy here in Ireland, so if I leave, hate to say this, but it's back to England for me and the family. At least they know the language.I dont want to be one of the familys that break up because things get bad, money runs out, what do we do, where shall we go. So I have decided that I wwont be trying to come over and live the "good" life.

Where's the smilley where the bloke puts a gun to his head????:lol::lol::lol:

Thank you all for sharing your tales and experiances, Iv'e seen reality through these threads. And, I hope that anyone else who wears rose coloured glasses throws them away. Off to specsavers Monday for some normal ones.:lol::lol::lol:


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## Xose

scharlack said:


> Hey Jo,
> 
> As I am from S. America I find it interesting that imo most of the UK/Scand folks are in Spain for the weather and a bit of the more laid back atmosphere...
> 
> 3 years ago (aka golden age!) I thought of going to the UK when I had a job offer in Reading, Berkshire, but I ended up going out with the girl of my life for the 1st time... so, it never happened (I mean the trip... as for the wedding... hell yeah, it did happen!)
> 
> 
> What do the UK/Scand folks usually claim they "gained/benefited" from coming to Spain? There is loads of friends back home... there is people we adore... family, dear friends, those things you truly miss... and whether we agree or not imo the UK is one of the world's power so setting up a business and making decent money or getting a job may not be as hard as in Spain (?)
> 
> I am asking this now because I like to get different points of view.
> 
> Cheers... have a good weekend



Hi scharlack,
Wasn't Cognos was it?! - or was it already IBM Cognos by then. Mind you Reading was a powerhouse (no joke intended) of high tech blue chips - Sony, HP and many other blue chips in high tech.

I used to live and work in the Surry, Hampshire and Berkshire belt. If the question written about many times in this forum regarding Spain v. UK on costs was answered by the people living in that part of England and London, I'm sure it would be a short debate. Even going from Madrid, I'm sure you would notice how expensive the UK is when landing in Reading and looking for a place to buy or rent in the suburbs of that town. Or indeed, any town in the said 3 counties.

In my opinion, the answer to what people gain when they arrive in Spain, at least in comparison with the South and South East of England, is Space with a capital "Ahhhh!"
Just do the 2000 Km trip from South or Western Spain to Calais - then get off in Kent. IMMEDIATELY you see what I mean - if the roadworks let you start to drive that is. Obviously, don't do that trip in the middle or last weekend of August, that wouldn't be fair to my argument

Seriously though. In my case (which is very unfair of me because it is from the two opposite sides of the population per Km2 (South East England to Galicia), it is defenetely that which counts hugely to the standard of living inprovement. A few other not less important things like a certain ease when going out in the evening. Less paranoia in clubs etc., etc. Less of the wild west feeling if you like.

I'm sure things are very different in the Lake District, parts of Wales, Parts of Whiltshire etc., but I can only comment on my own experiences.

Regarding starting up a business and job opportunities, hugely better in the UK. 1.5 times the population and half the space. Lot's of clients on your doorstep wherever you are. The ideal geographic business model. Even selling ice cream in the Park can be a wealthy job - and for many, it was.

IMO summary then: work to live = Spain, live to work = UK. - or Have already lived to work, now want to chill out and reap the benefits = Spain.

Of course, this is a UK/Spain scenario. I'm sure there are plenty of other options (on both work and life balance) if all countries are thrown into the comparitives.

Xose


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## Xose

jojo said:


> Interesting that you say that Strav, cos altho I came here for a different lifestyle, I've found that once the novelty wore off, things really aint much different here for me... as I've said many times before, I still have the same routines and life as I did in the UK, altho, I guess having children and the same commitments means I have to do the same things.
> 
> Jo xx


Everyone want's something untill they get it. Sooner or later, they get used to it and it becomes "the norm". Trouble is, when you ain't got it no more you realise what you had. Too late in many cases.

You live in the best place in the planet long enough and you'll start looking around. 

I don't think I'll ever forget how much it cost me in the UK per month to have a largeish four bed house and the obligatory "double garage". Never mind the pool. 

The cost of the plumber everytime he came two weeks after I called him for a 20 minute job, the electrician etc., etc. oh yeah, and the British Gas 5 star cover, and the dog health cover, and the gas fire cover. Bloody hell, if I'd known then what I know now about over insurance culture.

All I'd say to anyone who's been here a while and therefore, not there. Please do exactly the same homework going back before you actually do. 5 years is a long time away from a dinamic economy and finding you go to a pub with your 5 mates and £20 won't pay for your round of drinks might be a bit of a shock - as will the £140 rates bill you will pay, every month!!

Caution - please mind the step.


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## jkchawner

Tallulah said:


> OK, I'm gonna slap your wrist on this one. You have every reason to say that cos you came here as an early retiree so have a completely different viewpoint from others who have decided to come over, start a new life, raise a family, (hopefully) find work.
> 
> This next bit is not directed at you,by the way - it's a general point....
> Look, the whole damn world is in crisis. I still think although employment is thin on the ground, there are opportunities out there for those willing to fight and if the face fits, etc. You don't always have to be qualified, fluent in Spanish - I've seen the examples and for them it's worked out fine. It seems week in, week out, we have a see-saw going on here. Yes, come out try your luck, no don't - you're not fluent, there's no jobs, yes- you only need that one chance....there's never a definitive and you just can't advise people like that. There are so many different ways of defining a life/lifestyle and bringing in an income, etc. It's hard EVERYWHERE. Look deep inside yourself. What are you looking for at the end of the day? Be totally honest. Look to your assets/finances. Look to your talents. Can you work via a UK company whilst based here, paying taxes and registered here? I refuse - maybe just this evening - to see a black cloud.
> 
> So there.
> Tally.xx


i see the doom and gloom merchants are back in town :lol:


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## Chica

mickybob said:


> I'm very glad that I found this forum, the advice that you all so freely give is very welcome. People ask you a question, and you tell them the truth. I'm one of those people who wore the rose tinted glasses and thought that "things would be better in Spain". Now from all the threads that I have read I know, as Jo puts it, still washing, shopping, cooking to be done, just sunnier. This thread has realy been a good one. No, I dont think I could put my kids through having to learn a new language in a new school that doesnt speak their language. My kids are 14, 11 and 5. The youngest would probably cope, my wife wouldnt like the idea of learning Spanish. I would like too. It's my dream, not theirs, so it would be a nightmare for them and probably turn my dream sour. Jo, you tell of the hassle you have with tantrums and such. I dont want to have my kids leave when they are old enough becouse they dont like Dads dream. So I have made up my mind that that is all it is, a dream. I dont have "pots of money" and would have to scrape for a living. I'm not happy here in Ireland, so if I leave, hate to say this, but it's back to England for me and the family. At least they know the language.I dont want to be one of the familys that break up because things get bad, money runs out, what do we do, where shall we go. So I have decided that I wwont be trying to come over and live the "good" life.
> 
> Where's the smilley where the bloke puts a gun to his head????:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Thank you all for sharing your tales and experiances, Iv'e seen reality through these threads. And, I hope that anyone else who wears rose coloured glasses throws them away. Off to specsavers Monday for some normal ones.:lol::lol::lol:


mickeybob, that's really sad news!! Jo must have made you realise that your wife and kiddlies may not appreciate living here as much as you do and it would be much more difficult for them to settle in if they are not 100% behind you, especially your wife. You must be feeling really deflated now!! However, maybe it's better to find out now than later. And yes, I think it's good that this forum presents the reality. Without being financially secure would put great stress on all the family and create insecurity and resentment. 

If you can just hold on 'til the ninos are a little older when maybe they can learn Spanish if it's an option at school so that they would have a better chance if you did decide to come over later.

Sorry to go on but I really feel sad for you and can feel your disappointment if that's what you really have decided.


----------



## Tallulah

Not putting you off coming here, is it Shaun??!


----------



## jkchawner

Tallulah said:


> Not putting you off coming here, is it Shaun??!


who me never 
i dont listen to dribble ive always been self employed i have shall we say a head for business and always done well for me and my family its called a hard worker. why i could sell sand to arabs or happy storys to steve almost :lol:


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## SunnySpain

Mickeybob.

I think you may have just made the best decision for you and your family.

And if thats the case, then I congratulate you on doing so as well 

However, maybe what you could do is come out for a month or two during school summer holidays. That way you can experience a little bit what life is like in Spain and see how your family members feel afterwards

I personally think its very important that all the family agree when it comes to moving to a country where the locals speak a different language; especially if you have children - very IMPORTANT in my view

I was a single sefl-employed man when I arrived here, so my situation was different. I met my OH in Spain and now we have a wonderful young daughter who will almost certainly go to a Spanish state school and therefore Spanish
will become her primary language. I have come to terms with the fact that my daughter will probably not learn fluent English until she is in her teens

Anyway, I don't mean to ramble on, as I'm sure you got the point already.

Dave :juggle:


----------



## Twain

This thread is very important not only for me but anyone looking for a new start.
You all give a great insight to how it is to live after the first glory days.
And I found this forum to be the best (hence the reason for registering) at giving trustworthy information.

It's not easy at all to break up and move. Not everyone has the ability to see the "dark" side of things. And I do understand that those giving advice for many years get tired of the same old questions. A living forum like this one is therefore a good thing to have. And possible some sticky threads to keep such information available to beginners out there.

We all have our reasons for leaving family and friends behind.
And believe me when I say that it did take some time to draw the line and say it loud - yes I'm willing to sacrifice all that.

IF (yes, it's still an if, cause I'm awating the paperwork yet) I end up moving to Spain it would be for several reasons.
As I would be an early retiree I would have a low income to live off.
In a high cost land as Norway my living standard won't be much to talk about (a small studio apartment I guess, no car and no money left).
Not a big issue, but something that counts in on the total.
The strong currency keeps the euro costly - at the moment I would've lost about 2-300euros a month if I moved to Spain.
Even then it would be worth it mony wise.

The Norwegian climate is not good for my health.
I could move to a better location here in Norway but still it would not be as good as I know it could be in Spain.
Yes I know, I have to live in Spain for a longer periode to be sure. But just look at a weather map.
The location of Norway is giving us a new lowpreasure every other day with a highpreasure inbetween. All year round.
And if it don't completely change, we'll be at the rim of either a high or lowpreasure system. (the worst scenario for my body but also the everyday experience)
It's not that it's grey weather or rainy days (my best day could be one of those) but it's the constant change (even within a day, and also drastic changes) that attacs my body.

The sun.
Yes a warmer climate means that my limbs and muscles would function better.
Now I'm keeping the bed, taking hot baths, sauna etc to keep it flexible.
To be in the warmer climate AND the stable climate that Torrox is known for would positively give me better days.
And the sun is free and I don't have to be on a rollercoster with my body every day.

And I love an adventure. Love to travel the world and see new things, try new food and so forth.
And I know Spain has much to offer me there.

Is Spain going to make me better? yes.
I don't expect any miracles. That won't happen.
I'm sick and I will be, even in Spain - but it would make my days easier than back home.
But I don't see why I shouldn't do what I can do to help on my situation.

The cost would be that I'll have to leave family and friends behind.
That way it won't be easy but I'll handle it.
If I get too bored and don't get a social life I can alway say that I tried, for the best of my body - and move back home with my tail between my legs 

Anyway, the important thing is to be sure if it's the right thing to do.
And do your homework (as I'm trying to do these days and forward)


----------



## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> OK, I'm gonna slap your wrist on this one. You have every reason to say that cos you came here as an early retiree so have a completely different viewpoint from others who have decided to come over, start a new life, raise a family, (hopefully) find work.
> 
> This next bit is not directed at you,by the way - it's a general point....
> Look, the whole damn world is in crisis. I still think although employment is thin on the ground, there are opportunities out there for those willing to fight and if the face fits, etc. You don't always have to be qualified, fluent in Spanish - I've seen the examples and for them it's worked out fine. It seems week in, week out, we have a see-saw going on here. Yes, come out try your luck, no don't - you're not fluent, there's no jobs, yes- you only need that one chance....there's never a definitive and you just can't advise people like that. There are so many different ways of defining a life/lifestyle and bringing in an income, etc. It's hard EVERYWHERE. Look deep inside yourself. What are you looking for at the end of the day? Be totally honest. Look to your assets/finances. Look to your talents. Can you work via a UK company whilst based here, paying taxes and registered here? I refuse - maybe just this evening - to see a black cloud.
> 
> So there.
> Tally.xx


You tell him Tally! The guy's a loser!


----------



## Stravinsky

Tallulah said:


> OK, I'm gonna slap your wrist on this one. You have every reason to say that cos you came here as an early retiree so have a completely different viewpoint from others who have decided to come over, start a new life, raise a family, (hopefully) find work.



Im somewhat confused. Why are you slapping my wrist?? Because I worked 12+ hour days for 15 years and as a result was able to retire to a place of my choice 13 years early? A retired persons viewpoint will always be different to someone's whio has to work


----------



## jojo

mickybob said:


> I'm very glad that I found this forum, the advice that you all so freely give is very welcome. People ask you a question, and you tell them the truth. I'm one of those people who wore the rose tinted glasses and thought that "things would be better in Spain". Now from all the threads that I have read I know, as Jo puts it, still washing, shopping, cooking to be done, just sunnier. This thread has realy been a good one. No, I dont think I could put my kids through having to learn a new language in a new school that doesnt speak their language. My kids are 14, 11 and 5. The youngest would probably cope, my wife wouldnt like the idea of learning Spanish. I would like too. It's my dream, not theirs, so it would be a nightmare for them and probably turn my dream sour. Jo, you tell of the hassle you have with tantrums and such. I dont want to have my kids leave when they are old enough becouse they dont like Dads dream. So I have made up my mind that that is all it is, a dream. I dont have "pots of money" and would have to scrape for a living. I'm not happy here in Ireland, so if I leave, hate to say this, but it's back to England for me and the family. At least they know the language.I dont want to be one of the familys that break up because things get bad, money runs out, what do we do, where shall we go. So I have decided that I wwont be trying to come over and live the "good" life.
> 
> Where's the smilley where the bloke puts a gun to his head????:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Thank you all for sharing your tales and experiances, Iv'e seen reality through these threads. And, I hope that anyone else who wears rose coloured glasses throws them away. Off to specsavers Monday for some normal ones.:lol::lol::lol:



Mickybob, You sound very much like our family. Spain was my dream, the others werent really that keen. My older children/adults certainly werent.

In the end we decided to give it a go, I thought it would be great and for me it is. But when you have a family, unless everyone is happy then "the dream" can become a nightmare. My OH is commuting and altho is happy enough I know he finds it hard and of course costly, my kids who are here, well they "blow hot and cold". They still miss the UK and altho settled into schools and the way of life, they still throw the odd "we wanna go home" at me, I dont think they mean it anymore, but it puts me on a major guilt trip. In fact that happened last night, I wont bore you with it all, but they are still very much "brit kids" and dont like the "outdoor fiesta life". I thought it would be fun to go to a local feria, they didnt want to go, but I dragged em along and they hated it and of course as kids do, they made it very obvious they hated it! they wanted to stay at home and watch Britains got talent???? Anyway it all ended in a row. Now if that had happened in the UK, I coulda dealt with it, but of course, my OH isnt here and it then degenerated into the "we're only here cos you made us come and we want dad" senario which then fills me with horrendous guilt! But when we all calmed down, we talked and my children told me that they ARE happy here, they DONT want to go back and I think they just know how to upset me and "push my buttons" as kids do!!! 

All that said, what everyone MUST remember is that we are all different and so are our kids! (mine are just weired!!LOL). Yours may take to it like ducks to water! your little one probably will easily. Kids of 11 and 14 are notoriously "difficult" to say the least whatever you do..... or dont do!

The trouble with dreams is they very rarely go away unless they are at least tried! Whatever happens with us, I wouldnt have rested and would have been very resentful if we hadnt given it a shot! I personally think that we're slowly working through it and will succeed and inspite of everything WE ARE ALL HAPPY HERE! 

My kids may not "intergrate"(whatever that means?) and go back to the UK when they're grown up, but hey, why not?? At least I've shown them the world is their playground and they dont need to afraid of travel, re-locating, moving around the world.... This experience is educating them in so many other ways and giving them confidence. So IMO being here is the right thing for them.

So dont give up on the dream mickybob. Just because of anything I've said, take the rose tints off and try to adapt it to your needs and plan it very carefully, if it means waiting for a better time, or just having a temporary month, year.. whatever here then do it. If you dont, unless you can really burn it, you will always have that "wondering" in your head. I dont want to feel that my words have spoilt that for you, I and the others here have just hilighted the potential problems that get lost when you dream. dont forget this tho "I AM HAPPY HERE AND DONT REGRET IT!"

Jo xxxxx


----------



## SteveHall

Two Wolves


One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between two "wolves" inside us all.

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy,sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Two Wolves
> 
> 
> One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between two "wolves" inside us all.
> 
> One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy,sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
> 
> The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."
> 
> The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
> 
> The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."



Very profound for a sunday morning Steve! but very true!!

Jo xxx


----------



## SteveHall

This is MY home. I am blissfully happy here. SURE I feel I want to go back to Sweden occasionally, SURE I feel I want to go back to Norway occasionally, SURE I feel I want to go back to Torrevieja (less) occasionally 
BUT BUT BUT 
....these fleeting thoughts are far outnumbered by dreams I have for myself, things I WILL do before I die, places I will visit. As Xose said without knowing it "Borta bra, hemma bäst" (It's great to be away, but it's best to be at home) For me Spain IS home! Yes, the grass is greener on the other side and all we do in these type of forums is show you that the grass still needs cutting. 

Whatever decision we make, I hope it is the right one for you. 

Perfect Life? Hell on earth?

Family Sweden N/A
Idyll Goa/Norway UK 
Language	Sweden	India
Earning Capacity Norway India
Weather Spain Norway
Health Care	Spain UK
Friends Spain N/A
Football Spain/UK N/A
Rugby League	UK N/A
“History” - Roots	UK N/A
“Relationships”	Spain/Sweden India
Fascination India/Sweden UK 
Unfinished Business	Spain/Sweden N/A
Politics Spain UK
Yob Culture	UK 
Value for money Norway India
Food Spain/India	UK 
Literature Sweden/Spain 
Outdoor Life	Spain/India	



As you can see there are lots of places I love and Spain gets the vote from the Steveish jury!


----------



## mickybob

jojo said:


> So dont give up on the dream mickybob. Just because of anything I've said, take the rose tints off and try to adapt it to your needs and plan it very carefully, if it means waiting for a better time, or just having a temporary month, year.. whatever here then do it. If you dont, unless you can really burn it, you will always have that "wondering" in your head. I dont want to feel that my words have spoilt that for you, I and the others here have just hilighted the potential problems that get lost when you dream. dont forget this tho "I AM HAPPY HERE AND DONT REGRET IT!"
> 
> Jo xxxxx


Jo, I didn't mean that it was just what you said. I have taken in what a lot of people have said. After all thats what the forum is for, informing people.I know it would be hard, I am prepared for that. I will talk things over with OH and kids, and talk and talk. Then see what happens. The things I said you said, are just examples of lots that I read on here, You didnt put me off, you all just made me think.  Any way, next year we are off on our European tour, as the OH says, lets see if we like the continent, then decide. But now I have some (allbe it small) insite to living abroad.:high5:


----------



## jojo

I think what also must be taken into account when i ramble on is that I have not only relocated, but I have effectively become a single parent for certainly 80% of the time. (My OH isnt here very much due to work commitments in the UK) This would be difficult if we'd stayed in the UK, so couple that with moving to a foriegn country, away from friends, family and familiarity and its pretty obvious that we're not gonna find it that easy!

Jo xxx


----------



## Chica

jojo said:


> I think what also must be taken into account when i ramble on is that I have not only relocated, but I have effectively become a single parent for certainly 80% of the time. (My OH isnt here very much due to work commitments in the UK) This would be difficult if we'd stayed in the UK, so couple that with moving to a foriegn country, away from friends, family and familiarity and its pretty obvious that we're not gonna find it that easy!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hey Jo, I've got my smilies moving!!!

:focus:

:sorry:I must apologise if it seemed that I was pointing the fingure at you re: mickeybob's decission not to come over. This was not my intention. I meant it in the way that the reality was highlighted by you and all the rest of us. As I understand it your OH was behind you or maybe the instigator of your move here. As you said, children are flexible
and the experience will enable them to see the world without being blinkered. I think you are doing a great job, especially, mostly, on your own. It really can't be easy for you.


----------



## Tallulah

Stravinsky said:


> Im somewhat confused. Why are you slapping my wrist?? Because I worked 12+ hour days for 15 years and as a result was able to retire to a place of my choice 13 years early? A retired persons viewpoint will always be different to someone's whio has to work


:hug: Strav, I wasn't having a go, really. (I was in a feisty mood last night - call it too much sun & a couple of vinos). And you have every right to enjoy your retirement in the place of your choice. You've worked hard for it. What I was merely pointing out is that those expats who are in a more priviledged/fortunate position have a more coloured view of life in Spain and I don't think that gives us the right to put people off....as I then went on to explain in the second paragraph of my ramble... You read some posts and they say don't do it, don't burn your bridges, then you read go for it. Obviously it's a big move to emigrate. But then how many expats actually fully emigrate?? 

From what I read in the forum, many are attempting to support the UK overheads and have not realised the capital that they hold in the UK which would no doubt ease their new life in Spain. For those that can do this, fantastic. But for anyone having problems in the UK financially to attempt to do this is lunacy, imo. These people should do what I think many expats have done - not emigrate, but use the flexibility within the EU and the very lax law enforcement regarding residency to come over for a few months (if poss) and use the "try/like" approach to sell/prove it to themselves. If they find they like what they see, then they do need to "burn their bridges" unless they are very financially secure, becuase otherwise, they are maintaining two life bases which when in the UK would not have entered their minds and therefore, tip the balance towards possible failure.

In the end, it all comes down to liquidity. Again I say if people are having financial problems in the UK and this is their primary reason for coming to Spain, then "don't burn your bridges" might be alittle too simplistic.

Here's one I don't understand - which is something I think has been mentioned before : Outside of the EC I can understand the argument, especially where great distances are involved. But inside, what bridges exactly are we talking about? As has been said, you leave the UK, you come here, it gets messed up for you, you go elsewhere including the UK again. Up sticks and move. Why all this leaving infrastructures back in the UK in tact and money tied up in them, if one is to give their new life elsewhere a fair shot??

Tally.xx


----------



## jojo

Chica said:


> Hey Jo, I've got my smilies moving!!!
> 
> :focus:
> 
> :sorry:I must apologise if it seemed that I was pointing the fingure at you re: mickeybob's decission not to come over. This was not my intention. I meant it in the way that the reality was highlighted by you and all the rest of us. As I understand it your OH was behind you or maybe the instigator of your move here. As you said, children are flexible
> and the experience will enable them to see the world without being blinkered. I think you are doing a great job, especially, mostly, on your own. It really can't be easy for you.



Nooooo... Its actually good that people do listen to us on here, otherwise whats the point!?? lol

I've now started to wallow in self pity, since thinking about how hard my lot is.. single parent, strange country, unruly kids, dogs, day to day crisis' etc.... 

All self inflicted, my choice and dream to come here, but as I say there is the burden of guilt when things get a little hard. but for me and indeed my children when we think of the alternative, being back in the UK, this is much better!!!!


Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky

Tallulah said:


> :hug: Strav, I wasn't having a go, really. (I was in a feisty mood last night - call it too much sun & a couple of vinos). And you have every right to enjoy your retirement in the place of your choice. You've worked hard for it. What I was merely pointing out is that those expats who are in a more priviledged/fortunate position have a more coloured view of life in Spain and I don't think that gives us the right to put people off....as I then went on to explain in the second paragraph of my ramble... You read some posts and they say don't do it, don't burn your bridges, then you read go for it. Obviously it's a big move to emigrate. But then how many expats actually fully emigrate??
> 
> From what I read in the forum, many are attempting to support the UK overheads and have not realised the capital that they hold in the UK which would no doubt ease their new life in Spain. For those that can do this, fantastic. But for anyone having problems in the UK financially to attempt to do this is lunacy, imo. These people should do what I think many expats have done - not emigrate, but use the flexibility within the EU and the very lax law enforcement regarding residency to come over for a few months (if poss) and use the "try/like" approach to sell/prove it to themselves. If they find they like what they see, then they do need to "burn their bridges" unless they are very financially secure, becuase otherwise, they are maintaining two life bases which when in the UK would not have entered their minds and therefore, tip the balance towards possible failure.
> 
> In the end, it all comes down to liquidity. Again I say if people are having financial problems in the UK and this is their primary reason for coming to Spain, then "don't burn your bridges" might be alittle too simplistic.
> 
> Here's one I don't understand - which is something I think has been mentioned before : Outside of the EC I can understand the argument, especially where great distances are involved. But inside, what bridges exactly are we talking about? As has been said, you leave the UK, you come here, it gets messed up for you, you go elsewhere including the UK again. Up sticks and move. Why all this leaving infrastructures back in the UK in tact and money tied up in them, if one is to give their new life elsewhere a fair shot??
> 
> Tally.xx


Yes
In general I never tend to discourage people from coming here, for who am I to do so?  I just set things out as I see it and they have to make their own decisions

There are definately two distinct types of expat here. Those that retire here, and those that have to work. The latter have their "work" cut out for them, as in addition to the stress of moving here (and it CAN be stressful) they have to find and hold down a job.

Having said that the expat retiree is now coming under pressure as well. People who retired here on a state pension 5 years ago have found their income shrinking of late. Returning may not be a possibility if they own a property as property is not selling

I have a regular monthly top up sum coming here every month and it has shrunk by €400 since last year. However some expats have not much more than my shortfall to live on now!

Expats struggling over here has little to do with learning the language or integrating. In truth it mostly all comes down to finances. The same as the UK! If you are financially viable then in general you will enjoy whatever life you have carved out for yourself even if you cant speaka da lingo. Money is not absolutely everything of course ...... the right research before you come enables you to pick the right area. Other than that, health of course is a factor. Being ill is no fun. Being ill in a foreign country I guess can be even worse. I hope we all avoid this final point


----------



## jojo

I always say dont burn your UK bridges when talking to families with young kids and commitments. Moving to spain is an enormous step and what if it all goes wrong and you blow all your money over here and still have no job and no future here?? where do you go?? ok if you havent got the kids etc... but what happens if you have. I know families here who simply cant afford to go back and theres nothing for them to go back to... they've sold up, used their money and now have nothing

Jo xxx


----------



## Chica

Stravinsky said:


> Yes
> In general I never tend to discourage people from coming here, for who am I to do so?  I just set things out as I see it and they have to make their own decisions
> 
> There are definately two distinct types of expat here. Those that retire here, and those that have to work. The latter have their "work" cut out for them, as in addition to the stress of moving here (and it CAN be stressful) they have to find and hold down a job.
> 
> Having said that the expat retiree is now coming under pressure as well. People who retired here on a state pension 5 years ago have found their income shrinking of late. Returning may not be a possibility if they own a property as property is not selling
> 
> I have a regular monthly top up sum coming here every month and it has shrunk by €400 since last year. However some expats have not much more than my shortfall to live on now!
> 
> Expats struggling over here has little to do with learning the language or integrating. In truth it mostly all comes down to finances. The same as the UK! If you are financially viable then in general you will enjoy whatever life you have carved out for yourself even if you cant speaka da lingo. Money is not absolutely everything of course ...... the right research before you come enables you to pick the right area. Other than that, health of course is a factor. Being ill is no fun. Being ill in a foreign country I guess can be even worse. I hope we all avoid this final point


I agree with you. MOH's pension has reduced dramatically. We are adventurous and really want to travel 'round Spain. It was not possible for me before as I was working all the hours god sends..lol, but now I have the time, we don't have the finance  :lol:. This is really frustrating!!! I hope the exchange rate continues to climb...pleaseray2:


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## SunnySpain

Stravinsky said:


> Yes
> 
> Expats struggling over here has little to do with learning the language or integrating. In truth it mostly all comes down to finances.



True (ish), but most need a certain level of Spanish to get the job to pay the bills

Also, I actually consider there to be 3 types of expats

1) Don't have to work
2) Work for themselves
3) Need a job to live - this one "normally" requires a good level of Spanish

Dave


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

SteveHall said:


> This is a reply I gave to “Ronny” many years ago on an expats forum. The years ago on but my thoughts remain the same. It was referring to Torrevieja but in truth it applies to any expat area in Spain ......and probably anywhere else where expats are trying to start a new life.
> 
> 
> “Hi everybody. Every week on the various forums relating to Spain there is a question from hopeful couples in their thirties, often with a child or two asking about jobs and schools in Spain. Do any of these families make a proper go of it or do they just end up hand-to-mouth.
> 
> I ask because the more I see of Spain the more I thank my fate is in the UK.
> I have a UK income.
> Ronny”
> 
> 
> Now, that's what I call an interesting question. I get perhaps 15/20 people every month asking me questions like:
> 
> 1) Will I get a job as a bowling alley technician?
> 2) Would you tell me everything you know about Spain?
> 3) Will I like Spain?
> 4) What's the best part of Spain to live in?
> 5) How little Spanish can I get by on? Is English enough?
> 
> Many of them start with "Hi, my name's X and I'm thinking perhaps, maybe, possibly, at some time in the future of moving to Spain or maybe Malta, Florida, Greece or ....if.......... I send them a list of URLs, advise them to join expat forums and do some SERIOUS preparation. A lot of them have children and many have absolutely no idea whatsoever re education, Spanish, Spain itself, job opportunities etc etc. I usually also tell them the FACTS. There are very few employed (as opposed to self-employed) opportunities. If you do not speak Spanish the opportunities at getting much above the minimum wage are extremely limited. You only need to see the vacancies section in the English language papers to recognise that. Nevertheless thousands come every year looking for a land of milk and honey. Whilst the grass maybe greener here in Spain (figuratively at least!) it most definitely needs cutting.
> 
> 
> I have now had some 700 people who work with me / for me so I meet up with a lot of these types of people. Ronny, you are 100% correct in your underlying assumption that many do not make a fist of it. I can give many reasons.
> 
> 1) Firstly and most importantly they have not done enough, if any, homework. They have absolutely no comprehension that for example someone who was, say, a dental receptionist in the UK is going to find it almost impossible to get the same job over here.
> 
> 2) They have absolutely no comprehension of how expensive Spain is. I am sure I speak for many when I say that I find Spain is now only marginally less expensive than the UK for many things.
> 
> 3) They make very little effort to learn any Spanish. A hobby-horse of mine so I won't continue. NOWHERE in Spain is English universally spoken. Even in Benidorm, Torremolinos, Marbella or Torrevieja, Spanish is still the official language. NOT speaking Spanish will massively harm your chances of getting work. FACT.
> 
> 4) They quite bluntly do not have a work appetite. Somehow they expect to work fewer hours for more money than they did in the UK.
> 
> 5) Many were losers in the UK. Somehow they think if they come to Spain and do all the things they did wrong in the UK they will succeed. It's pure folly to think if you do the same things you failed with before that you will get a different result if you continue to do them wrongly over here.
> 
> 6) On the same track many are quitters. (Winners never quit and quitters never win.)
> 
> 7) As they have done so little preparation re 1, 2 and 3 that when a problem happens they are not ready for it and struggle to overcome whatever the problem is.
> 
> 
> Can people make a go of it? Yes, absolutely many of my guys have a lifestyle they could never have dreamt of in the UK. Some earn serious money - very serious money in some cases. Many others give up and either flee back to the UK or mess around with airport runs, villa cleaning etc etc trying to eke out a living until they win the lottery (Spanish or otherwise!). I'll give anybody a chance - that's my style BUT at the first meeting I know pretty well who's a talker and who's a walker. I know most times who will succeed, who will survive and who will fail. Equally, many have absolutely no direction whatsoever. I am fortunate that I am not down to my last five bob. I'm not into flash cars or a fancy lifestyle. So, I often say to the people who don't seem cut out for what I have to offer, "Is there anything that you would like to do, if I were to fund a new project with you?" Unbelievably, most have absolutely no idea. So if I help them set it up, get the papers in order and even fund it they wouldn't know what they wanted!!! ¡No digo nada! On the other hand, I mentioned it to a couple the other day and the lady immediately came up with what I believe was a very credible business proposition for here in Spain.
> 
> Sorry if the answer is a bit long winded but it is one of those "meaning of life questions" where the answer is more likely to be observations and opinions rather than "the police station is at Calle Mayor 36 and the telephone number is 9........
> 
> Kind regards
> Steve”
> 
> Here is another and earlier reply to a similar question:
> 
> 
> Message:
> I agree with Bob 100%. I have over 400 people who work with me over here on various projects and I am constantly in need of quality people. By the same token I am constantly amazed at people's job expectations - would you be happy if you rang, say, your dentist in Derby and found that the receptionist spoke only Spanish? So why should a dental receptionist expect to find work in a Spanish dental surgery? "Oh, well I could learn." ¡No digo nada!
> 
> FACTS there are almost NO permanent employee positions with contracts UNLESS you speak Spanish FLUENTLY. Usually, even then FLUENCY in another language French, Norwegian or German is also required. That is why you see so many Belgian and Dutch people working for estate agents etc. From birth they have been comfortable in 3 or 4 languages.
> 
> FACTS - my two secretaries are German and Dutch. One speaks Dutch, German, English and Spanish and the other speaks German, Spanish, French and English.
> 
> When I last interviewed for a secretary I got over 70 applications. Over 30 were from English speakers BUT only 3 had the MINIMUM number of languages clearly stated in the advert - three. My short list was a Finn, two Dutch girls, a Belgian guy (who spoke SIX languages fluently) and a Norwegian. These people were applying for a position with a contract, 30 days’ paid holiday etc. Everything that so many people crave for.
> 
> Incidentally in the Valencian Community only 10% of all new positions advertised last year were with permanent contracts and that is the Spanish and not the ex-pat market place. Do not also forget that Spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe and that a lot of the best jobs in Spain are "word of mouth."
> 
> That's not to say that there is NO work. There is - this is Klondike at the moment BUT you dig your own gold. 90%+ of all the ex-pats over here are self-employed. There is as much work as you want in the building trade and in sales. I am frequently frustrated that I cannot start more projects. Why? The lack of quality staff. Corporation bus drivers with 20 years experience are NOT in demand over here BUT if the same man can sell or use his hands then he has a chance.
> 
> “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results!"
> 
> 
> PS As an aside, two weeks ago I placed an advert which was written in Spanish (only- no translation) on an expats forum. It offers a guaranteed work contract, a realistic salary and everything else that goes with a Spanish permanent contract. To date, it has been viewed 437 times. I have had one person who wanted to know why it was written in Spanish and one person who failed to turn up for an interview twice! I know I would have had more applicants if I had written in English or Swedish BUT absolute fluency in spoken and written Spanish is a pre-requisite so it saved me all the “I get by” dreamers.



Steve,

I would just like to say that it has been a very long time since I heard or read anything as arrogent and self oppinutated as what I have just read and it would put me off being part of this forum. What is the point of this post???

Tracy


----------



## SteveHall

Like all my posts - to try and help people make the right decision and/or to help them when they do come here. It is up to them as to whether they want to learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others.


----------



## XTreme

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> Steve,
> 
> I would just like to say that it has been a very long time since I heard or read anything as arrogent and self oppinutated as what I have just read and it would put me off being part of this forum. What is the point of this post???
> 
> Tracy


Much as you may not like to hear it.....it's actually the truth.

Would you prefer to be lied to? Thousands of people have been in the past.....and they paid the price.

You may not appreciate Steve's way of putting it over.....but the message is 100% on the money!


----------



## jojo

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> Steve,
> 
> I would just like to say that it has been a very long time since I heard or read anything as arrogent and self oppinutated as what I have just read and it would put me off being part of this forum. What is the point of this post???
> 
> Tracy


Thats interesting Tracy, cos I felt the post "hit the nail on the head"?! I dont think its meant to be arrogant, just an opinion. But I'd agree with it! What bits dont you like or agree with?? How do you view it all??

Jo xxxx


----------



## SunnySpain

What Steve wrote is indeed true and I would like to add that most expats that come here needing a job without having something already in place tend to end up very much disappointed due t what little work they can find

As for obtaining a job with an employment contract...well as Steve points out not that many Spanish can find such work so expats have very little chance of doing so 

If however you are young free and single and just want a long working holiday then you may be lucky and find work in a bar or restaurant (normally in the kitchen)

I think it was Strav who recently said (and not for the first time either) those expats that need to work (in a job, as opposed to being self-employed) have got their work cut out when it comes to making ends meet

In other words its not easy and thus being able to speak da lingo kinda helps

Dave


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

SteveHall said:


> Like all my posts - to try and help people make the right decision and/or to help them when they do come here. It is up to them as to whether they want to learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others.




This may well be true Steve, but the fact remains there are ways of explaining and saying things without sounding arrogent, and implying that most of us expats out here do not have Spanish employment or infact learn the language. I am aware that it is not easy but it is also not impossible, as we have employment and also speak reasonably good Spanish for the time we have been here. But we do not lead an extravigant life style nor will we become millionaires living here, but the fact is we don't want to, we just want to bring our kids up in a nice enviroment with a really nice climate and lots of outdoor living, and in my opinion so might alot of other people using this forum and you could put them off. So perhaps you could just point out that although it might not be easy to achieve some of us do manage it.


----------



## XTreme

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> and implying that most of us expats out here do not have Spanish employment or infact learn the language.


But most Expats out here do _not_ have Spanish employment (or any other kind) or learn the language.

And that's the way it is Tracy.....there's no untruths in what Steve said. Your circumstances appear to be different, but you are in a minority. A very small minority.


----------



## SunnySpain

Hi Tracey,

Off-topic - I have actually been to Twechar, has a relationship with a young lady from there many years ago


----------



## Suenneil

Hi all ...

I have to say I dont agree with Tracy that Steve´´s post was "arrogant" (Ive never found any of his posts arrogant - usually just very informative and factually based ...) BUT I agree with some of Tracys points .....

I have lived here for 5 years and as you all know my Spanish is pathetic! (Ive mentioned it many times!!) BUT I have worked full time from the first week I arrived here, just finished a 3 year permanent contract (ended it myself because I wanted to try a different avenue of employment) and now have a permanent contract with a Spanish Law Firm ... so it is possible - although I probably agree Im one in a very small minority and VERY VERY lucky ! .... 

Having said all that if I was arriving on a plane today from the UK my options would be severely limited and I doubt I would be as lucky now as I have been in the past here in Spain.

I have no ambition or desire to be loaded / filthy rich etc etc Im not really a material girl! I just want to pay my way whilst enjoying life in Spain.

fingers crossed I can keep going in the way I have done for this long!!

Sue x


----------



## SteveHall

Tracy, I wrote very clearly 
"Can people make a go of it? Yes, absolutely many of my guys have a lifestyle they could never have dreamt of in the UK. Some earn serious money - very serious money in some cases." 

The REALITY is that MOST do not and in this current situation MOST are struggling. Just today I have heard of two contacts who have gone back to London and Denmark. I also had a very depressing conversation with a bank manager on the sprawling Doña Pepa urbanisation in Rojales today. People are just throwing the keys back at him. He "joked" he had never heard the phrase "negative equity" until this year.

I have also taught Spanish to over 800 people per week (peaking at 1,000+ per week) I KNOW how much Spanish the average expat speaks. I did 16 denunicas at the police station in one year with Brits who could not even report a crime. This in the same town where two language schools closed for lack of pupils! Look on my websites - how many of the language schools are offering deals that would have been unheard of a few years ago. 

However unpalatable these comments are they are F.A.C.T.S. Whether you (or anybody else) choose to believe them is entirely up to you. 

Tracy, if you are doing well, I am delighted for you but look around at the urbanisations of the Costa Blanca South and Murcia and tell me hand on heart that this is a good time to be here with no work and no money.


----------



## XTreme

Suenneil said:


> I have lived here for 5 years and as you all know my Spanish is pathetic!


Quieres tocar los huevos chica?


----------



## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> Quieres tocar los huevos chica?


You see this is what does me every time! Ive just put that in my translation page and it came back " do you want to touch my small eggs " ??????? ...... now that could in fact be a proposition from you Xtreme or Ive got the crappiest translation site in the world here!!! :tongue:


----------



## SteveHall

NO, she does not. 

Sue, I made that decision for you as I know that like Jojo and The Fragrant One you are a respectable lady!


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> However unpalatable these comments are they are F.A.C.T.S. Whether you (or anybody else) choose to believe them is entirely up to you.
> 
> Tracy, if you are doing well, I am delighted for you but look around at the urbanisations of the Costa Blanca South and Murcia and tell me hand on heart that this is a good time to be here with no work and no money.



Off topic - crikey its a bit on the warm side today 

Its also been hotting up in here recently I see:lol:


----------



## SteveHall

I think you should be glad that you do not have an online slang dictionary ....even one that might cuesta un huevo


----------



## SteveHall

SunnySpain said:


> Off topic - crikey its a bit on the warm side today
> 
> Its also been hotting up in here recently I see:lol:


*Absolutely gorgeous - there was a really impressive sea "mist" at La Cala today. More like a pea-souper ...... althought it was 29º!


----------



## XTreme

Fiests here today.....so I managed to get out for a couple of hours....down into Almeria! 










Starting to warm up a bit here now....my poor old helmet got a bit sweaty!


----------



## Suenneil

SteveHall said:


> NO, she does not.
> 
> Sue, I made that decision for you as I know that like Jojo and The Fragrant One you are a respectable lady!


Im so glad you are here Steve to protect my modesty and maintain my standards !!!


----------



## XTreme

Suenneil said:


> Im so glad you are here Steve to protect my modesty and maintain my standards !!!


Those are the type you got to watch Sue!


----------



## Suenneil

SteveHall said:


> *Absolutely gorgeous - there was a really impressive sea "mist" at La Cala today. More like a pea-souper ...... althought it was 29º!


Malaga is BAKING! blue skies and hot hot pavements ..... although my contact in Estepona tells me its "foggy" down there and you can only just see the beach!


----------



## SunnySpain

Suenneil said:


> Malaga is BAKING! blue skies and hot hot pavements ..... although my contact in Estepona tells me its "foggy" down there and you can only just see the beach!



Yes the coast is foggy today, its all that sun hitting the cold water and creating something they call steam :lol:

We had lunch in the old square of Estepona at the weekend. Talk about big fish, the Pez Espada is the size of a Tiburon


----------



## Suenneil

SunnySpain said:


> Yes the coast is foggy today, its all that sun hitting the cold water and creating something they call steam :lol:
> 
> We had lunch in the old square of Estepona at the weekend. Talk about big fish, the Pez Espada is the size of a Tiburon


Hey maybe I sat opposite you drinking my coffee! we were in the old square lunchtime on saturday but sadly not having lunch!

Was it Casa Pablo (?) by any chance .... ?


----------



## SunnySpain

Suenneil said:


> Hey maybe I sat opposite you drinking my coffee! we were in the old square lunchtime on saturday but sadly not having lunch!
> 
> Was it Casa Pablo (?) by any chance .... ?


Why yes it was, the very same, Pablo's house


----------



## Suenneil

SunnySpain said:


> Why yes it was, the very same, Pablo's house


We had dinner there a couple of weeks ago when we had friends over from the UK ... was lovely food and really reasonable price wise .... I had some fantastic lamb - gorgeous (sorry to any veggies out there!!!) 

Already promised myself we will eat there again sometime soon .


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

SunnySpain said:


> Hi Tracey,
> 
> Off-topic - I have actually been to Twechar, has a relationship with a young lady from there many years ago


hi there,
it is a small world we live in!!! but there aintmany places as small as Twechar.


----------



## SunnySpain

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> hi there,
> it is a small world we live in!!! but there aintmany places as small as Twechar.


I seem to remember a drinking establishement called the Bully
Ring any bells


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

XTreme said:


> But most Expats out here do _not_ have Spanish employment (or any other kind) or learn the language.
> 
> And that's the way it is Tracy.....there's no untruths in what Steve said. Your circumstances appear to be different, but you are in a minority. A very small minority.


Ok maybe so but in my social circle we all speak some spanish and we all work and some of us are even Spanish. So I just think that if I was a bit annoyed with the post and I am not normally easily annoyed then maybe other people would be to. But also it might be fair to addmit that I probably did not have the best day yesterday and could have taken the post a bit too personal, although I do think that my points are valid.


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

SunnySpain said:


> I seem to remember a drinking establishement called the Bully
> Ring any bells


yeah used to work there and now my friend owns it.


----------



## XTreme

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> But also it might be fair to addmit that I probably did not have the best day yesterday and could have taken the post a bit too personal, although I do think that my points are valid.


Tell me all your problems Tracy....I look after all the Ladies here!


----------



## SteveHall

Tracy, I owe you a vote of thanks. As I was re-reading it to see what could possibly have upset you I actually thought it was better than usual and sent it off to one of the biggest expat newsletters. Within minutes, it was commissioned! 

"Thanks Steve they are really good.

Will use for my next newsletter and ........

Regards"

Thanks, Tracy! 

"No hay mal que por bien no venga"


----------



## SteveHall

XTreme said:


> Tell me all your problems Tracy....I look after all the Ladies here!


XTreme you need to shuffle some words - "I am the problem for all the ladies here"

Tracy, take no notice. He's chanced his arm with every other guapita on here and none have fallen for his transparent charms!


----------



## Caz.I

XTreme said:


> Much as you may not like to hear it.....it's actually the truth.
> 
> Would you prefer to be lied to? Thousands of people have been in the past.....and they paid the price.
> 
> You may not appreciate Steve's way of putting it over.....but the message is 100% on the money!


In general, I think it has hit the nail on the head too, but... I think dismissing expats who dont succeed, or even continue, in Spain simply as "losers" or "quitters" is extremely judgemental. Human beings are not robots, they do make mistakes and mess up big time, and sometimes they do make the same one again and again but I think that's part of human frailty and doesn't mean they can never ever be happy or successful (on their own terms) in life.


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

XTreme said:


> Tell me all your problems Tracy....I look after all the Ladies here!


LOL!! thank you for you support but at this moment I probably just need a bit more sleep... ta:tongue:


----------



## SteveHall

I hold my hands up. MEA CULPA - I messed up BIG time first time around. I thought I had all the answers and that nobody could be so stupid as not to realise that we were going to make our millions running a bar in expatshire! No forums then, no expat papers, no English TV...and no help! 

I LOST big style and ended up going back to the UK having walked out on my marriage, with just 18 pounds to my name and two suitcases of clothes. When I touched down at Ringway the first revelation was that if I'd taken a taxi home as I'd always have done before that would have blown the last few bob I had. Think that was the first time I'd got on a bus at the airport - maybe at all. No taxi or one of my reps to take me home. Back to a house with the electrics and water switched off and no way of paying for them to be put back on. Yes, guys, I've seen what expatshire can do to your life .....and your finances. Not to mention my ex running off with another ...................bottle of vodka! 

When I returned I determined (a) to do my homework, (b) NOT to make the same mistakes again and (c) most importantly, to try to help others NOT to make the same mistakes that had crushed my first expat experience. 

So, after almost 1,000 people who have worked with me over here, setting up the Newcomers Club, teaching Spanish to 800 people per week, launching TIBA and the ThisIsSpain Exhibitions, being the police liaison officer for the Neighbourhood Watch etc I think I've seen enough to have some opinions. If I offend anybody I apologise - a direct Yorkshireman - but I'd rather offend somebody than let them listen to some of the dream-sellers that blight expatshire.


----------



## Caz.I

SteveHall said:


> I hold my hands up. MEA CULPA - I messed up BIG time first time around. I thought I had all the answers and that nobody could be so stupid as not to realise that we were going to make our millions running a bar in expatshire! No forums then, no expat papers, no English TV...and no help!
> 
> I LOST big style and ended up going back to the UK having walked out on my marriage, with just 18 pounds to my name and two suitcases of clothes. When I touched down at Ringway the first revelation was that if I'd taken a taxi home as I'd always have done before that would have blown the last few bob I had. Think that was the first time I'd got on a bus at the airport - maybe at all. No taxi or one of my reps to take me home. Back to a house with the electrics and water switched off and no way of paying for them to be put back on. Yes, guys, I've seen what expatshire can do to your life .....and your finances. Not to mention my ex running off with another ...................bottle of vodka!
> 
> When I returned I determined (a) to do my homework, (b) NOT to make the same mistakes again and (c) most importantly, to try to help others NOT to make the same mistakes that had crushed my first expat experience.
> 
> So, after almost 1,000 people who have worked with me over here, setting up the Newcomers Club, teaching Spanish to 800 people per week, launching TIBA and the ThisIsSpain Exhibitions, being the police liaison officer for the Neighbourhood Watch etc I think I've seen enough to have some opinions. If I offend anybody I apologise - a direct Yorkshireman - but I'd rather offend somebody than let them listen to some of the dream-sellers that blight expatshire.


That's it, Steve. You learned, in a very painful way, by the sound of it, from your own experience. And it is really good that you are using it to help others and dont hold back on stating where people go wrong in their approach, cos people do need to hear it loud and clear. I am not offended by your opinion per se, I just object to classifying people as "losers". You came back and made a success of it second time around, so others have the potential within them too.


----------



## SunnySpain

errrrrmmmm no (in my opinion), I think Steve got it right first time round

Steve was refering to the many expats that come here without any idea of what they are going to do when they get here and generally speaking they don't have any real prior knowledge of the Spanish language

The fact that Steve's first experience as an expat did not go to plan had nothing to do with the above, absolutamente nada


----------



## SteveHall

Perhaps we should define what I think a "loser" is. 

To me a "loser" is somebody who does not fulfill his/her potential. I believe we all have many, many talents and a limitless potential to achieve great things. It frustrates me when I see people screwing their chances. My first wife was a superb, quite magnificent singer but was lazy. Working Wakefield Theatre Club or Batley Varieties was as much as she could see herself doing. She was given the chance to work the cruise ships at about 21/22 but just could be bothered. Their were girls who would have prostituted themselves (literally) for the transatlantic and med cruises but it was all too much hassle for her. The guy at the audition even commented on it! She had the chance to cruise the world but no she'd rather get me to schlepp her gear on the buses around Bradford working men's clubs! That to me is a loser! 

It frustrates and upsets me when I see so many people waste what could be a GREAT opportunity for them. We now have a (n informal) support structure in place but sadly people still make the same mistakes that they have been making here since the days of those first package holidays. Can we all remember them?


----------



## Twain

hm

We all have our dreams and our skills, traind or by gift from mother nature.
If I'm good at playing the guitar (natural gift) and could have the world at my feets - but choose to play golf instead because that was my dream and I could practice to become good - would that make me a looser?

Not grab the opportunities if that's all you've got might be stupid.
But I'm sure it all depends on what ones dreams are.
Life's too short to do what everyone else thinks we should do.
Let's all fail once and learn - if we can afford it.

Calling names is not good, there's always another way to say things.
Reality is harsh so there's no need to paint it pink, it will only make it worse.

BUT - I don't see how it could be offending to point out the reality as Steve did.
And what he wrote is not the first time I've heard the story. More often this is the story we hear from others norwegians in Spain aswell.


And now, I'm going to start learning spanish - got the Rosetta Stone, seemd to be the best? Until I can attend a class later on.


----------



## mickybob

XTreme said:


> Tell me all your problems Tracy....I look after all the Ladies here!


Watch out Tracy, he just want someone to stroke his Donkey.:scared:


----------



## mayotom

Tallulah said:


> Steve, you ever seen that movie "The Business" - set in 80's southern Spain? I imagine you as the "Playboy" character. Well, almost!!



I know that guy, he is really just like his character, hilarious, he now lives in Calabria Italy aged 50 with a girlfriend who is a Norwegian Model


Crazy guy but funny


----------



## Tracy Halstvedt

SteveHall said:


> I hold my hands up. MEA CULPA - I messed up BIG time first time around. I thought I had all the answers and that nobody could be so stupid as not to realise that we were going to make our millions running a bar in expatshire! No forums then, no expat papers, no English TV...and no help!
> 
> I LOST big style and ended up going back to the UK having walked out on my marriage, with just 18 pounds to my name and two suitcases of clothes. When I touched down at Ringway the first revelation was that if I'd taken a taxi home as I'd always have done before that would have blown the last few bob I had. Think that was the first time I'd got on a bus at the airport - maybe at all. No taxi or one of my reps to take me home. Back to a house with the electrics and water switched off and no way of paying for them to be put back on. Yes, guys, I've seen what expatshire can do to your life .....and your finances. Not to mention my ex running off with another ...................bottle of vodka!
> 
> When I returned I determined (a) to do my homework, (b) NOT to make the same mistakes again and (c) most importantly, to try to help others NOT to make the same mistakes that had crushed my first expat experience.
> 
> So, after almost 1,000 people who have worked with me over here, setting up the Newcomers Club, teaching Spanish to 800 people per week, launching TIBA and the ThisIsSpain Exhibitions, being the police liaison officer for the Neighbourhood Watch etc I think I've seen enough to have some opinions. If I offend anybody I apologise - a direct Yorkshireman - but I'd rather offend somebody than let them listen to some of the dream-sellers that blight expatshire.


Hi Seve,
OK point taken, thank you for the insight I will be sure not to be offended in future, unless you are really rude.... then of course I would have to comment!!! I suppose we just get tiered of people telling us how difficult life can be over here with 3 kids to support a language barrier, unemployment so high etc.. which of course is all true, the trouble is most of the people who try to tell us what we should be doing and should not be doing have either been here five minutes themselves or seem to dissapear back to the UK a few weeks later. Not that we do not want or need anyones help of course we do, it's just that so many people tell us stuff that just ain't true, or at least is not for us.
I suppose at the end of the day we love living in Spain and cannot think of anything worse than returning to a life in the UK, so I might just not like to see all the negative and difficult things about living here Written down in front of me.
I guess I might be saying "sorry" will think before I type next time.

Tracy


----------



## XTreme

Glad to see you've perked up Tracy!

I know it was speaking to me that did it.....after the trauma of wading through one of Steve's monologues!

They don't call him The International Man of Misery for nothing you know.....he even gets The Samaritans slamming the phone down on him!


----------



## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> Glad to see you've perked up Tracy!
> 
> I know it was speaking to me that did it.....after the trauma of wading through one of Steve's monologues!
> 
> They don't call him The International Man of Misery for nothing you know.....he even gets The Samaritans slamming the phone down on him!


Im soooooooooooo busy at work today - and just having a lunch break thinking nothing would make me laugh or smile today ..... but youve just done that Xtreme! ha ha ha ha International Man of Misery ... where do you get them from :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## jojo

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> Hi Seve,
> 
> I guess I might be saying "sorry" will think before I type next time.
> 
> Tracy


Good grief, dont apologise to him Tracy, it'll go to his head!!!!!!! we all know he can be a miserable old man, even if he is right! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

SunnySpain said:


> errrrrmmmm no (in my opinion), I think Steve got it right first time round
> 
> Well that is odd as he seemed to be saying otherwise above, but he is the one to qualify his words.
> 
> Steve was refering to the many expats that come here without any idea of what they are going to do when they get here and generally speaking they don't have any real prior knowledge of the Spanish language
> 
> Yes. I already said (twice now) I wasnt disputing his assessment in general, (and those in points 1 and 3), it was the word "loser" (point 5) I was objecting too. I think that word is so emotive, even though he has now defined what he meant, it is a word that implies someone is condemned to failure, forever. I just thought if someone was reading that post and already feeling bad about their apparent failure, it wouldnt exactly help. I dont think it is an expression that is helpful or useful in assessing someone's situation. That's all. So what is your definition of the word?
> 
> The fact that Steve's first experience as an expat did not go to plan had nothing to do with the above, absolutamente nada


Well I thought that was his point, that it had everything to do with it!


----------



## crookesey

Only those of you who are retired will be able to answer this, so my question is. When we decide to take the plunge we will most probably buy my mate's villa, or one very close to it if he decides not to sell . We will not require a mortgage, will not need to work and should have circa £30,000 p/a gross income.

We have been using this villa for quite a few years and know that it is where we want to be. We would do exactly what a retired couple would do in the UK, albeit in a better climate. Our circle of family and friends is small due to mortality taking its toll. We have one son aged 30 who is getting married this year, and yes we would miss him, but then again free holdays might mean that we see more of him than we do now, and that also goes for our friends.

So, we know the actual place we want to live in, we love the area, we could keep ourselves busy maintaining the villa with its garden and pool. We have sent for Jane Cronin's 'Survival Spanish' course, and depending on what progress we make, will attempt to get better by using her more advanced courses. We have thought of doing 2 months Spain - 2 months UK recurring, but it would be expensive, we will just have to let go of what little we like about the UK.

So, will we struggle in Spain? I can't see why, we both consider the UK to be beyond repair, our outgings would be less in Spain and we would get free healthcare. Another saving would be by not spending circa £3,500 per annum on flights, accommodation, car hire etc. As far as we are concerned its a no brainer, it lookes to us like a clear victory for Spain, what do you guys think?


----------



## Stravinsky

Well you sound as if you will be more or less in the same position as us.

We spent a year or so checking out areas and looking for property. When we bought this there was another 2 years of "holidays"

I retired early at 52, so until the wifes pensions kick in this year we have to pay private health and our income is from investments / savings. We have a house in the UK.

You will be absolutely fine on your £30k .... we have been doing fine on well less than that for the moment. When you are here you probably wont do your 2 month turnabout ..... our idea was something like that. We went back about 4 or 5 times in the first year, but we havent been back since Christmas this year. Having said that, I just got a price for going back end of this month and its £100 return for both of us, so its not that expensive if you want to pop back.

As a couple, mportgage paid I'm sure you could live happily on half of your income in this area, obviously in the more expensive areas of CDS it would be more


----------



## SteveHall

Thought I'd translate something from a quality Swedish expat paper "Sydkusten" 

Unemployment among non-European immigrants has increased from 17 to 64%(sic) 

In times of crisis, immigrants/expats are the most vulnerable and the first to lose their jobe. Without a work contract they cannot renew their residence permits. Many are lacking paperwork and are thus not entitled to any form of benefit and whilst they were warmly welcomed in the boom years for the Spanish construction industry now they are without rights and with the only viable alternative to return home. 

There then follows another whole page of similarly depressing reading backed up by statistics and FACTS (normally missing from ENglish-language papers!) 

Is there work? Yes, there will always be some. Remember you ONLY need one lucky break. ONE. 

Caryn Grosvenor contacted me through this form a few weeks ago - she came over, I got her an interview the next day and she was employed on contract on the spot for a full-time position. I have also got her two part-time teaching positions! 


BUT - she speaks FLUENT Spanish and she is QUALIFIED to teach. She has a skill that is in demand. Her sister is a student who is "willing to do anything" but who does NOT speak Spanish has not found work. Hint?


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## Tallulah

SteveHall said:


> Caryn Grosvenor contacted me through this form a few weeks ago - she came over, I got her an interview the next day and she was employed on contract on the spot for a full-time position. I have also got her two part-time teaching positions!



Aw - you're lovely you are, Steve.

Sister could always try lapdancing.


----------



## Suenneil

SteveHall said:


> Thought I'd translate something from a quality Swedish expat paper "Sydkusten"
> 
> Unemployment among non-European immigrants has increased from 17 to 64%(sic)
> 
> In times of crisis, immigrants/expats are the most vulnerable and the first to lose their jobe. Without a work contract they cannot renew their residence permits. Many are lacking paperwork and are thus not entitled to any form of benefit and whilst they were warmly welcomed in the boom years for the Spanish construction industry now they are without rights and with the only viable alternative to return home.
> 
> There then follows another whole page of similarly depressing reading backed up by statistics and FACTS (normally missing from ENglish-language papers!)
> 
> Is there work? Yes, there will always be some. Remember you ONLY need one lucky break. ONE.
> 
> Caryn Grosvenor contacted me through this form a few weeks ago - she came over, I got her an interview the next day and she was employed on contract on the spot for a full-time position. I have also got her two part-time teaching positions!
> 
> 
> BUT - she speaks FLUENT Spanish and she is QUALIFIED to teach. She has a skill that is in demand. Her sister is a student who is "willing to do anything" but who does NOT speak Spanish has not found work. Hint?


Interesting isnt Steve how different Countries follow different approaches to reporting .... even when "facts" are quoted in the UK press I rarely actually believe them! as they have an inate ability to be so bloody negative about everything ... so even when its bad - it just sounds worse!!
I have said before that Im lucky enough to have always worked in the 5 years I have been here - proper contracts / terms of employment etc ... and only yesterday I had a call from an Agency asking me if I wanted to go for an interview for a job coming up in Marbella ! I hadnt even applied for a job! - but apparently was still registered from some time ago .... I turned down the opportunity of the interview because even though it would get rid of my travel problem - it was in a line of work that Im quite cynical about!
But there is stuff out there ... albeit very hard to find most of the time.
sue x


----------



## XTreme

I've never figured out why so many Expats get their teeth taken out before they come here!


----------



## El Pichichi

Exactly the kind of no nonsense advice I was after. 

Thanks Steve. 

P.S May I enquire as to what you do and where? My best guess for the latter would be Valencia as it was alluded to in your post. Scratch that I just looked at your location. "D'oh".


----------



## El Pichichi

jojo said:


> I think what also must be taken into account when i ramble on is that I have not only relocated, but I have effectively become a single parent for certainly 80% of the time. (My OH isnt here very much due to work commitments in the UK) This would be difficult if we'd stayed in the UK, so couple that with moving to a foriegn country, away from friends, family and familiarity and its pretty obvious that we're not gonna find it that easy!
> 
> Jo xxx


Nothing worth having in this life ever comes easy. You are a lucky woman but you've obviously had to work hard for that luck.


----------



## jojo

El Pichichi said:


> Nothing worth having in this life ever comes easy. You are a lucky woman but you've obviously had to work hard for that luck.


why, thank you!!! I know and I count my blessings

Jo xxx


----------



## El Pichichi

Tracy Halstvedt said:


> Steve,
> 
> I would just like to say that it has been a very long time since I heard or read anything as arrogent and self oppinutated as what I have just read and it would put me off being part of this forum. What is the point of this post???
> 
> Tracy


I found the post interesting, informative and useful. 

Don't take things on face value, I would imagine that Steve is in certain ways being cruel to be kind and playing Devil's Advocate.


----------



## SteveHall

Steve is tired of scraping the expats off the road. The general idea is not to throw yourself under the expat juggernaut. 

I try to help people stick to the pavement.


----------



## mcginlay

*Good post*

As an expat to be moving over in the next 3 weeks - I have soent the last hour and a half reading this post from start to finish and it does give a lot of food for thought.

I am lucky in that I have a good job in Spain, have secured a great pad (even with a dreaded and huge aval) but even then the prep for the move has been much more difficult than I ever imagined. If I was a single guy again maybe 23 - I would hop on a plane give it a go and return home if it didnt work. I cannot ever imagine coming to Spain without having secured work first though if there are others relying on you (wife and kids).

It's too much of a transition to have to go home again after 3 months. If you can live for 6-12 months and be financially secure without work then maybe it's possible but even then you could find yourself back in the UK and 20K lighter after a long holiday. I think it's difficult for many Brits to adapt to "living" in Spain and not treating it like a long holiday although I know I am exaggerating here.

Programmes like Place in the Sun etc have a lot to answer for and give people false impressions of day to day life. 

Moving my family to Spain has been one of the hardest decisions I have ever made (although many of the doubts appeared after I signed my contract) but with a few weeks to go I know I have made the right decision for my family. My advantage is that I can concentrate on looking after them, adapting the kids, quality time etc without having to spend all day every day looking for a job.

This forum is a source of inspiration and help to me and I am sure to many others. Steve, Tallulah, Chica who always give sound advice can only give their opinions and ultimately people will make their own decisions.

Good luck to everyone who makes the move and whatever happens I am sure their will be people on this forum to support you.

lane:


----------



## SteveHall

Sorry - your post was NOT edited. I hit edit and not reply. 

It's 1am and I'm dealing with what an expat regards as an unfair dismissal case - I think she's been given a VERY generous pay-off. Now she wants to know why the trade-union rep does not speak English. Funniest thing is that she is not in a union but the guy offered to help! Think he wishes he had not now!!! 

I think it's difficult for many Brits to adapt to "living" in Spain and not treating it like a long holiday although I know I am exaggerating here.

**I am not sure you are!!

Programmes like Place in the Sun etc have a lot to answer for and give people false impressions of day to day life. 

**Absolutely

I wish you every success.


----------



## mcginlay

SteveHall said:


> Sorry - your post was NOT edited. I hit edit and not reply.
> 
> It's 1am and I'm dealing with what an expat regards as an unfair dismissal case - I think she's been given a VERY generous pay-off. Now she wants to know why the trade-union rep does not speak English. Funniest thing is that she is not in a union but the guy offered to help! Think he wishes he had not now!!!
> 
> I think it's difficult for many Brits to adapt to "living" in Spain and not treating it like a long holiday although I know I am exaggerating here.
> 
> **I am not sure you are!!
> 
> Programmes like Place in the Sun etc have a lot to answer for and give people false impressions of day to day life.
> 
> **Absolutely
> 
> I wish you every success.



LOL had to laugh about the not being a member of a union bit but complaining about the language. That sums up 99% of Brits in Spain.
Thanks Steve hopefully I will begin posting much more over the next month as the move goes ahead and I have more time during the summer. Maybe I'll start a blog diarising? my expat adventure!!


----------



## Tallulah

mcginlay said:


> LOL had to laugh about the not being a member of a union bit but complaining about the language. That sums up 99% of Brits in Spain.
> Thanks Steve hopefully I will begin posting much more over the next month as the move goes ahead and I have more time during the summer. Maybe I'll start a blog diarising? my expat adventure!!


Hi McGinlay,

Wow, three weeks - the dreaded countdown! The packing, the excitement, the tears - it's all coming back to me now! You may have said before, but whereabouts are you moving to? What about your kids ages? Are they going into International or State schooling? Best of luck with the move though. I don't think anyone can quite explain how difficult the transition can be for some, it's something you have to go through yourself and experience, but even with all the ups and downs of it all, I can honestly say that for us, it's been the best decision we've ever made to come over here. 

Keep us posted!

Tallulah.x


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## mrypg9

Many years ago my Aunt in Canada did something which was then quite unusual - when my Uncle retired, they sold the family home, found a nice apartment to rent and spent their time spending their money on travel and generally living the good life they couldn't afford during their working lives. Both their children were in secure, well-paid employment and were in no way looking to a large inheritance when Mom and Pop kicked the bucket.
Quite a few people are now adopting this course, it seems, and there's even an acronym for them :SKINs : spending kids' inheritance now.
We decided to do this, sold businesses and properties, although we do have a home to return to eventually when really old and decrepit, and took early retirement. Son earns almost as much in a couple of months as I did in a whole year about ten years ago) and does not, hopefully, need any future help. If he does he can stand on his own feet and make his own way, as we had to. Our contribution has been a stable family and encouragement to get the best possible education, in my opinion worth more than money.
We decided to leave the U.K. and spent three years in Central Europe. The experience was great - it knocked years off me! Of course there were problems but sampling a whole new way of life was fantastic .
After three years, we came to Spain, to the CDS. We rent - we've had enough of the day-to-day problems of being property owners in the UK without trying it abroad - and are able to rent properties we couldn't afford to live in back home. Return on invested capital is currently so low it's as well to spend, anyway.
Life here is great....and when it stops being great, we'll move on. France? Italy? Who knows?
Some might say we're selfish but you have one life to lead. It's a cliche but this is not a rehearsal. Doing what we've done has given us a completely new life, so unlike the traditional view of retirement.
But I realise we are in a fortunate position and it's clear that a lot of people are struggling to cope here, as everywhere across Europe. Steve H. is telling it like it is.
There are a lot of hardworking determined expats here who would make a good life for themselves in Outer Mongolia as they have the requisite qualities.
But there are also a significant minority of bulls******g losers too. We found them in Prague, you'll find them anywhere.
Life can be tough anywhere in the world. But I think I'd rather have tough in the sun, if you get my meaning....


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> Many years ago my Aunt in Canada did something which was then quite unusual - when my Uncle retired, they sold the family home, found a nice apartment to rent and spent their time spending their money on travel and generally living the good life they couldn't afford during their working lives. Both their children were in secure, well-paid employment and were in no way looking to a large inheritance when Mom and Pop kicked the bucket.
> Quite a few people are now adopting this course, it seems, and there's even an acronym for them :SKINs : spending kids' inheritance now.
> We decided to do this, sold businesses and properties, although we do have a home to return to eventually when really old and decrepit, and took early retirement. Son earns almost as much in a couple of months as I did in a whole year about ten years ago) and does not, hopefully, need any future help. If he does he can stand on his own feet and make his own way, as we had to. Our contribution has been a stable family and encouragement to get the best possible education, in my opinion worth more than money.
> We decided to leave the U.K. and spent three years in Central Europe. The experience was great - it knocked years off me! Of course there were problems but sampling a whole new way of life was fantastic .
> After three years, we came to Spain, to the CDS. We rent - we've had enough of the day-to-day problems of being property owners in the UK without trying it abroad - and are able to rent properties we couldn't afford to live in back home. Return on invested capital is currently so low it's as well to spend, anyway.
> Life here is great....and when it stops being great, we'll move on. France? Italy? Who knows?
> Some might say we're selfish but you have one life to lead. It's a cliche but this is not a rehearsal. Doing what we've done has given us a completely new life, so unlike the traditional view of retirement.
> But I realise we are in a fortunate position and it's clear that a lot of people are struggling to cope here, as everywhere across Europe. Steve H. is telling it like it is.
> There are a lot of hardworking determined expats here who would make a good life for themselves in Outer Mongolia as they have the requisite qualities.
> But there are also a significant minority of bulls******g losers too. We found them in Prague, you'll find them anywhere.
> Life can be tough anywhere in the world. But I think I'd rather have tough in the sun, if you get my meaning....


I loved your post ...... and think you are doing the right thing for you which is what is should all be about.

I note that you felt the need to say that some people would think you were perhaps selfish !!!!! - I find the older I get the more this makes me laugh ...... I am practising being "selfish" ... if only to make sure I start to enjoy my own life more without the constant need to keep everyone else happy at the same time .... and that includes family, friends, work colleagues, the lady in the supermarket, the bus driver etc etc etc .... I have spent what seems like a lifetime trying to do the right thing by others .. and I dont see that as a negative - but it is if its to the detriment of your own happinness.

The concept of working hard all your life just to die and leave it to the kids / grandkids is something I dont actually hold with anyway ...... work hard and then enjoy your early / late retirement and benefit from all that hard work while you are still breathing ....

My ex father in law died alone at home a few years ago ... in a cold dark house where he wouldnt put the bloody heating on just to make sure every penny he had saved came to his grandkids !!! did they love him less or more for that ? It didnt matter they just missed him - and wouldnt have cared one jot if he had left them nothing!

Enjoy all you do in your retirement!!!! you are lucky to be in the position you are in and Im sure you worked hard to get there!!

Sue xxlane:


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> I loved your post ...... and think you are doing the right thing for you which is what is should all be about.
> 
> I note that you felt the need to say that some people would think you were perhaps selfish !!!!! - I find the older I get the more this makes me laugh ...... I am practising being "selfish" ... if only to make sure I start to enjoy my own life more without the constant need to keep everyone else happy at the same time .... and that includes family, friends, work colleagues, the lady in the supermarket, the bus driver etc etc etc .... I have spent what seems like a lifetime trying to do the right thing by others .. and I dont see that as a negative - but it is if its to the detriment of your own happinness.
> 
> The concept of working hard all your life just to die and leave it to the kids / grandkids is something I dont actually hold with anyway ...... work hard and then enjoy your early / late retirement and benefit from all that hard work while you are still breathing ....
> 
> My ex father in law died alone at home a few years ago ... in a cold dark house where he wouldnt put the bloody heating on just to make sure every penny he had saved came to his grandkids !!! did they love him less or more for that ? It didnt matter they just missed him - and wouldnt have cared one jot if he had left them nothing!
> 
> Enjoy all you do in your retirement!!!! you are lucky to be in the position you are in and Im sure you worked hard to get there!!
> 
> Sue xxlane:


Thanks for that, Sue. Yes, we worked hard - especially OH who ran the businesses - but I think it's inevitable to feel a bit guilty if you are a certain age and have a certain kind of upbringing whenever you put yourself first, as it were. I'm sure you will understand what I mean.
Only slightly off-topic, if at all: am I being over prudish, stuffy, snobbish even, whatever? Just went out with the basuras and encountered a group of women, twenty somethings, clad in very short shorts and skimpy bikini tops. Skin as white as chalk, too, so hopefully well-protected. They didn't have beach bags, towels etc so were presumably off to the village shops.
This is a residential area, largeish houses, ten to fifteen minutes walk from the beach. There is a very small urb. of flats round the corner, some are holiday rentals.
I just don't consider it OK to wander about like that. The locals here don't wander about the streets three-quarters naked, but quite a few Brits do. To me, it seems inconsiderate, rude and offensive. I'm sure they wouldn't do it in Bournemouth, say, or Morecombe.
Or maybe they would??? So is it just me? Should I loosen up a bit


----------



## Chica

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for that, Sue. Yes, we worked hard - especially OH who ran the businesses - but I think it's inevitable to feel a bit guilty if you are a certain age and have a certain kind of upbringing whenever you put yourself first, as it were. I'm sure you will understand what I mean.
> Only slightly off-topic, if at all: am I being over prudish, stuffy, snobbish even, whatever? Just went out with the basuras and encountered a group of women, twenty somethings, clad in very short shorts and skimpy bikini tops. Skin as white as chalk, too, so hopefully well-protected. They didn't have beach bags, towels etc so were presumably off to the village shops.
> This is a residential area, largeish houses, ten to fifteen minutes walk from the beach. There is a very small urb. of flats round the corner, some are holiday rentals.
> I just don't consider it OK to wander about like that. The locals here don't wander about the streets three-quarters naked, but quite a few Brits do. To me, it seems inconsiderate, rude and offensive. I'm sure they wouldn't do it in Bournemouth, say, or Morecombe.
> Or maybe they would??? So is it just me? Should I loosen up a bit


I think it's just a fashion thing!? Girls seem far less modest than in our day..lol although I remeber the looks I used to get in the miniskirt days and showing the midriff, not only by the men....but by the older folk as well.. I just think the youngsters have gone just 1 step further than I did and not just showing the midriff but the whole top area accept for a bikini top. So, yeh, I would just loosen up as you say


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for that, Sue. Yes, we worked hard - especially OH who ran the businesses - but I think it's inevitable to feel a bit guilty if you are a certain age and have a certain kind of upbringing whenever you put yourself first, as it were. I'm sure you will understand what I mean.
> Only slightly off-topic, if at all: am I being over prudish, stuffy, snobbish even, whatever? Just went out with the basuras and encountered a group of women, twenty somethings, clad in very short shorts and skimpy bikini tops. Skin as white as chalk, too, so hopefully well-protected. They didn't have beach bags, towels etc so were presumably off to the village shops.
> This is a residential area, largeish houses, ten to fifteen minutes walk from the beach. There is a very small urb. of flats round the corner, some are holiday rentals.
> I just don't consider it OK to wander about like that. The locals here don't wander about the streets three-quarters naked, but quite a few Brits do. To me, it seems inconsiderate, rude and offensive. I'm sure they wouldn't do it in Bournemouth, say, or Morecombe.
> Or maybe they would??? So is it just me? Should I loosen up a bit


mmmmmmmmmmmm I dont consider myself to be old and fuddy duddy - Im 46 for gods sake and in my prime!! never felt better actually in both mind and body!
BUT BUT BUT I do sort of agree with you here - I think when I was twenty something I probably did dress to show off my best bits - most girls do! but at the same time Im not always comfortable with some of the attire thats worn , or rather NOT WORN "on the streets" so to speak - even in mercadona or the local butchers - shopping in their underwear almost! And you are right EVEN if it were hot and sunny in Sheffield or Rotherham where I hail from you would get far too many strange looks and comments if you went around dressed in basically your pants and bra !

I know the lovely Spanish girlies wear skimpies too - but the Brits and other tourists tend to take it a tadge too far ..... but thats just my own opinion! Im sure our man in the mountains who loves his donkeys has a completely opposite view !!!

Each to their own I suppose

Sue x


----------



## jojo

hhhmmm, its a difficult one. Where I used to live in the UK was a holiday resort, well nearly (worthing, west sussex)???? and on a rare hot day, you'd see young girls wearing next to nothing as they do in the costas here. Is it decent?? well not really and I dont like seeing bikini/thong clad girls in Mercadona (and lets face it, bikinis are basically bra and knickers!), but at the same time, things change. 100 years ago, a woman wouldnt dare show anything above the knee, and as for the old fashioned bathing costumes??? they certainly wouldnt wear those anywhere but directly on the beach, however if this "over the years undressing" carries on then its only a matter of time before young girls are wearing nothing at all!!!!???? But then what will happen is that we'll all become desensitised and it wont seem bad????

jo


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## mrypg9

Maybe I'm just jealous...
I know things change and lawd knows I wouldn't want to put the clock back.
It's just that some styles of clothing are more appropriate?
But as the Spanish say, Sobra las gustas non hay disputos (or something like that).


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe I'm just jealous...
> I know things change and lawd knows I wouldn't want to put the clock back.
> It's just that some styles of clothing are more appropriate?
> But as the Spanish say, Sobra las gustas non hay disputos (or something like that).



I dunno, maybe its cos we're getting old ??? I can remember my grandmother being horrified by mini skirts when they first came out. I vividly remember her refusing to let me watch top of the pops once when I was with her, because she didnt approve of "young girls flaunting themselves"!!!... is this what we're sounding like ??????? LOL 


Jo xxxx


----------



## XTreme

The way you gotta think of it ladies.....is that you've had your time in the spotlight....so to speak.

But those days are gone.....the torch has been passed!

Now it's the turn of much younger chicas to go round strutting their stuff in public.

I personally applaud these nubile young wenches.....and I'll stick up for them at every opportunity.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I dunno, maybe its cos we're getting old
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


I AM old, dammit!!!!
But in my head I shall be forever thirty That seems a good enough cut-off point.
Encouragingly though, I know people in their twenties and thirties who are older than me ...if you know what I mean.
I wish the weather would make its mind up....between Marbella and Estepona it alternates between sun and cloud. Can't decide whether to go indoors and do something necessary but tedious (paint cupboards, clear out basement etc.) or stick with it by the pool.


----------



## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> The way you gotta think of it ladies.....is that you've had your time in the spotlight....so to speak.
> 
> But those days are gone.....the torch has been passed!
> 
> Now it's the turn of much younger chicas to go round strutting their stuff in public.
> 
> I personally applaud these nubile young wenches.....and I'll stick up for them at every opportunity.


You have got that SO wrong Xtreme! .... the torch has passed ? Rubbish! I agree that the young women now strutting their stuff should be loud and proud of how great they LOOK - but theres no accounting for experience on how to put that machinery into action !!! ... and for that you and the other males in this world would be lost without the ladies of a certain vintage who could:clap2: wipe the floor with the youngsters!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> The way you gotta think of it ladies.....is that you've had your time in the spotlight....so to speak.
> 
> But those days are gone.....the torch has been passed!
> 
> Now it's the turn of much younger chicas to go round strutting their stuff in public.
> 
> I personally applaud these nubile young wenches.....and I'll stick up for them at every opportunity.



B$&%[email protected]!!!!!!!!!!:eyebrows:

However, what you have to remember is what those nubile young wenches think when they walk past old men learing at them!!!!!!!


Jo xxx


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## XTreme

Here we go! Now here's a lesson in irony.....

I was chatting to a couple of Brit women the other day and they insisted on giving me a lecture on how all _Spanish_ women over thirty, and all _Spanish_ women once they get married.....all leave themselves go and pile on the pounds.


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## Zimtony

jojo said:


> B$&%[email protected]!!!!!!!!!!:eyebrows:
> 
> However, what you have to remember is what those nubile young wenches think when they walk past old men learing at them!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Sad Old Gits, is what they think!


----------



## Zimtony

Suenneil said:


> You have got that SO wrong Xtreme! .... the torch has passed ? Rubbish! I agree that the young women now strutting their stuff should be loud and proud of how great they LOOK - but theres no accounting for experience on how to put that machinery into action !!! ... and for that you and the other males in this world would be lost without the ladies of a certain vintage who could:clap2: wipe the floor with the youngsters!


Hear, hear!!! Always did like that Mrs Robinson film!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tallulah

Best thing to do is what I did, marry an older man!! (He is gorgeous though!!).

Maybe it's easier here up North - just gotta learn how to strut my stuff in a woolly jumper!!


----------



## Caz.I

Tallulah said:


> Best thing to do is what I did, marry an older man!! (He is gorgeous though!!).
> 
> Maybe it's easier here up North - just gotta learn how to strut my stuff in a woolly jumper!!


Hmm. Well, maybe but you got to remember, Tal, what is an older man to you is probably our contemporary!, unless he is a pensioner. No discrimination intended. I suppose it comes down to maturity versus enthusiasm. Well, each to their own. And I know of both young and old who appreciate the older woman, and from experience I know the younger guys do anyway.  

Anyway, this is getting a bit sickening now, first the lush green countryside, now the gorgeous husband. Please stop. But, at least we have got our trump card down here now - TF for Marks & Spencers! :clap2:

Caz.


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## Tallulah

Fine - I promise, no more photos of lovely countryside and no more talk of lovely hubby. I shall become an embittered English Expat and resort to complaining about the lack of a Marks & Sparks oop North. You can catch my disillusioned story on the BBC soon.


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## Caz.I

Tallulah said:


> Fine - I promise, no more photos of lovely countryside and no more talk of lovely hubby. I shall become an embittered English Expat and resort to complaining about the lack of a Marks & Sparks oop North. You can catch my disillusioned story on the BBC soon.


That's the spirit!


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## Chica

Tallulah said:


> Fine - I promise, no more photos of lovely countryside and no more talk of lovely hubby. I shall become an embittered English Expat and resort to complaining about the lack of a Marks & Sparks oop North. You can catch my disillusioned story on the BBC soon.


Pues, did you watch Paradise Lost last night. Didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but what a shame for that unfinished site and having to live with all that s..t around them!!


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## jojo

Chica said:


> Pues, did you watch Paradise Lost last night. Didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but what a shame for that unfinished site and having to live with all that s..t around them!!


Yes, I watched that too, I was gonna start a post about it. You're right, it didnt really tell us anything new. Sad, but I guess the risk was always there??? I'm not sure I'd have bought into something that wasnt finished for that very reason.... what if???

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Chica said:


> Pues, did you watch Paradise Lost last night. Didn't tell us anything we didn't already know but what a shame for that unfinished site and having to live with all that s..t around them!!


Yes, I felt very sorry for them and the awful thing is there's nothing they can do about it. Even if they successfully sued the developers there'd be no money for compensation.
Generally, I'm a bit equivocal about things like this: gains and losses are part of our free market system, after all, and if you are happy when you make a profit, you should be fatalistic when you incur a loss. That's easier said than done, I know. Buying in a foreign country, especially off-plan, is a huge risk but people overlooked that when they were told of the gain they would make in rising property values. 
But as elsewhere, over-eager lenders pressurised the gullible and innocent into taking on commitments that were at the edge of affordability.
I smiled wryly at the comment of the estate agent turned bargain basement auctioneer that 'at one time,if you had a pulse and a passport, you'd get a mortgage.' These people have a lot to answer for. Now some of them are making money out of others' misery by getting huge commissions from selling off heavily discounted properties - peoples' dreams knocked down under the hammer.
Everyone thought they were on the gravy train: lenders, builders, agents, buyers.
But history shows that all bubbles burst....eventually.
Sorry if I sound harsh and unsympathetic but I feel that we often fail to read the small print - you know, the bit you see on the edge of the tv screen when financial products are advertised -that says that assets can fall in value as well as rise.
We, like a hell of a lot of other people, lost a lot of money when interest rates plunged - but we enjoyed the good times while they were rolling.
So we don't complain.....just kick the cat now and then..


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## Chica

I think a lot of people were caught out on the primise that they could either flip it or rent their casas as holiday lets. Many of them were just too late!! The flipping days are long gone so they then end up with a motgage they didn't want. And with the downturn of the financial market people are just not taking the risk of moving over here except the odd few that are really determined. It suprises me that rents are still quite high and have not sunk low enough to attract ex-pats back again but I suppose that comes from those that bought in the height of the boom and want to cover their mortgages. Wouldn't it be better to have something coming in on a long term than zero?! I know others don't agree with me re: rental prices and believe they are reasonable, but in MHO unless they are dropped I can't see there being an upturn, eg, how many retirees have returned because they can no longer afford to live here. Of course I am talking about renters here, not people with a mortgage.


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## jojo

Chica said:


> I think a lot of people were caught out on the primise that they could either flip it or rent their casas as holiday lets. Many of them were just too late!! The flipping days are long gone so they then end up with a motgage they didn't want. And with the downturn of the financial market people are just not taking the risk of moving over here except the odd few that are really determined. It suprises me that rents are still quite high and have not sunk low enough to attract ex-pats back again but I suppose that comes from those that bought in the height of the boom and want to cover their mortgages. Wouldn't it be better to have something coming in on a long term than zero?! I know others don't agree with me re: rental prices and believe they are reasonable, but in MHO unless they are dropped I can't see there being an upturn, eg, how many retirees have returned because they can no longer afford to live here. Of course I am talking about renters here, not people with a mortgage.



You say that, but on average, I think rentals here are much cheaper than the UK, mine certainly is and when you concider that council tax is usually included too. 
Jo xx


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## mrypg9

Chica;152334 It suprises me that rents are still quite high and have not sunk low enough to attract ex-pats back again but I suppose that comes from those that bought in the height of the boom and want to cover their mortgages. Wouldn't it be better to have something coming in on a long term than zero?! I know others don't agree with me re: rental prices and believe they are reasonable said:


> I think you are right. Better to have an income, however miniscule, than to leave your property empty, especially when its value is probably still falling. Doesn't make sense to leave it empty.
> I have a feeling that Spain is finished as far as tourism goes. The fall in the value of the euro has prompted a lot of people to look at destinations outside the eurozone, places like Turkey, Tunisia, Egypt and long-haul destinations such as Australia, the West Indies, Seychelles etc.
> I don't mean that no-one will come here again - people will still want to relocate for work, retirement or just a change of lifestyle. But trends in holiday destinations fluctuate.
> When we first moved to Prague, you couldn't move without tripping over tourists from all over the world. Horrible Brit stag and hen parties too. But the value of the £ against the Czech crown dropped by a third after August 2007 and value-for-money wasn't great either.
> Just before we left, you could have felt agorophobic in Wenceslas Square, it was so empty compared to a year or so before.
> I may be wrong, though.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> You say that, but on average, I think rentals here are much cheaper than the UK, mine certainly is and when you concider that council tax is usually included too.
> Jo xx


In the comparatively short time we've been here, we've seen a fall in rents asked. Supply and demand - there's an awful lot of empty properties, especially those twobed/two bath apartments on urbs.
I'm sure the house we live in here would be well out of our affordability range in the UK, as was the house we lived in five miles from central Prague. 
Living in houses you couldn't afford to buy is one of the main joys of renting for me.


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## Chica

jojo said:


> You say that, but on average, I think rentals here are much cheaper than the UK, mine certainly is and when you concider that council tax is usually included too.
> Jo xx


I think it depends where you live in the uk. I pay €500 for a 2 bedded appartment here. In the UK our rent and council tax combined is £500 for a 3 bed semi + garage. Ok we don't have the views we have here but I still think that's a bit steep for a 2 bedded appartment in a bloque. If my landlord wasn't a friend I certainly would ask for a reduction but you know how it is!!!


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## jojo

Chica said:


> I think it depends where you live in the uk. I pay €500 for a 2 bedded appartment here. In the UK our rent and council tax combined is £500 for a 3 bed semi + garage. Ok we don't have the views we have here but I still think that's a bit steep for a 2 bedded appartment in a bloque. If my landlord wasn't a friend I certainly would ask for a reduction but you know how it is!!!


yes, we've had this conversation before havent we. I guess its a combination of my UK house being in a "posher?" area and my spain house being in a "less posh area"lol and you're kinda the other way round. you know what I mean 

Where my UK house is, you'd not get any 3 bed places for under about 750 pounds and that wouldnt include council tax!

Jo xx


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## mrypg9

Chica said:


> I think it depends where you live in the uk. I pay €500 for a 2 bedded appartment here. In the UK our rent and council tax combined is £500 for a 3 bed semi + garage. Ok we don't have the views we have here but I still think that's a bit steep for a 2 bedded appartment in a bloque. If my landlord wasn't a friend I certainly would ask for a reduction but you know how it is!!!


Definitely depends on area. Four years ago I asked for and got £700 pcm for a not very big detached house, no garage, just a car port and a tiny garden. In East Anglia. Landlords were getting comparatively high rents then because the area saw a huge number of Eastern Europeans who came to work in the area when their countries joined the EU in 2004.
Since then, a lot of them, especially the Poles, who made up the largest numbers, have gone home and I doubt if you'd get £500 for that kind of property nowadays.


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## Chica

jojo said:


> yes, we've had this conversation before havent we. I guess its a combination of my UK house being in a "posher?" area and my spain house being in a "less posh area"lol and you're kinda the other way round. you know what I mean
> 
> Where my UK house is, you'd not get any 3 bed places for under about 750 pounds and that wouldnt include council tax!
> 
> Jo xx


Yes. A bit of de ja voux (don't know how you spell it)


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## mrypg9

Chica said:


> Yes. A bit of de ja voux (don't know how you spell it)


deja vu. Sorry to be smug but used to interpret /translate French.
Same goes for Spain though, when it comes to rentals:as the saying goes 'Location, location, location'.


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## Chica

mrypg9 said:


> deja vu. Sorry to be smug but used to interpret /translate French.
> Same goes for Spain though, when it comes to rentals:as the saying goes 'Location, location, location'.


Thanks mrpg9. Good job I owned up to it :eyebrows:


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## mrypg9

Chica said:


> Thanks mrpg9. Good job I owned up to it :eyebrows:


The older I get, the worse my (English) spelling gets. Odd, really, you'd think it was the other way round
Does anyone else apart from me have trouble sleeping here? This is supposed to be a 'nice' area but dogs bark all night, prompting our own little darling, who is normally the strong and silent type, to join in. Then the municipal garbage truck comes to empty the basuras skips down the road....*between midnight and twelve **thirty every night!!!!*
I had to get up early this morning anyway to take OH to the airport and I only got just under three hours sleep, what with all the racket.
Can't make up my mind tonight whether to shoot the dogs (leaving Our Little Azor out) take pills or drink latge amounts of Scotch.
Or all three.
Lack of sleep is why one expat at least is struggling in Spain


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## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> The older I get, the worse my (English) spelling gets. Odd, really, you'd think it was the other way round
> Does anyone else apart from me have trouble sleeping here? This is supposed to be a 'nice' area but dogs bark all night, prompting our own little darling, who is normally the strong and silent type, to join in. Then the municipal garbage truck comes to empty the basuras skips down the road....*between midnight and twelve **thirty every night!!!!*
> I had to get up early this morning anyway to take OH to the airport and I only got just under three hours sleep, what with all the racket.
> Can't make up my mind tonight whether to shoot the dogs (leaving Our Little Azor out) take pills or drink latge amounts of Scotch.
> Or all three.
> Lack of sleep is why one expat at least is struggling in Spain


Yes ... depends on where you are living - but most places there are many more stray dogs in spain than in the UK ... so they move around a lot at night! waking up all the "house" dogs in the neighbourhood in the process ! starts a bit of a chain reaction!
We noticed it less when lived almost in the Campo (Coin) strangely enough ... and now in Estepona town we dont hear a thing! ... but again there are less strays around where we are ...


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## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> Yes ... depends on where you are living - but most places there are many more stray dogs in spain than in the UK ... so they move around a lot at night! waking up all the "house" dogs in the neighbourhood in the process ! starts a bit of a chain reaction!
> We noticed it less when lived almost in the Campo (Coin) strangely enough ... and now in Estepona town we dont hear a thing! ... but again there are less strays around where we are ...


I haven't seen any strays here -I tend to spend a lot of time looking out of the window in the early hours- it's the 'house dogs'. 
Don't the Spanish ever complain? I know they're easy-going but they need sleep too.


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## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> I haven't seen any strays here -I tend to spend a lot of time looking out of the window in the early hours- it's the 'house dogs'.
> Don't the Spanish ever complain? I know they're easy-going but they need sleep too.


dont know if they complain or not .... but even if they did I dont know who would do anything about it .... there have been articles in the press over the past couple of years with the authorities promosing to curb the problem of loud noise / parties / cars / motos / dogs etc at nighttime ... but it obviously isnt applied universally! ... also you may think its house dogs - and it probably is them making the noise ... but they have been set off by hearing / or sensing strays around ...... the strays themselves dont necessarily do the barking!


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## jojo

i seems to be the same all over, all night long there is a dog or two or ten barking in our neighbourhood, or in the distance, I often wonder what the owners or their neighbours must think. Theres a particularly yappy little thing just down the road from us that can go on for hours!! I could quite easily go over and strangle it with my bare hands!! Then we get the cockerel down the road, who thinks cos the dogs are barking it must be morning, so he starts up and if we're really lucky the pet pig opposite starts up, which starts my dogs and has such a high pitched, loud squeal it could wake the dead!...... I guess its nights like these that are the reason why the spanish have siestas!!!!! It wouldnt be allowed in the UK!!!

Jo xxx


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## crookesey

Re the TV programme. 

I bought a flat on a building site in the UK when I was in my 20's, everything turned out fine but I wouldn't repeat the exercise these days, especially in Spain. Some folk are unlucky, some folk are naive, it's when they are both unlucky and naive that this sort of thing happens to them.

I think that a lot of expats who struggle in Spain might well have struggled back in the UK or wherever they came from. I have met many 'hail fellow well met' guys in Spain who I wouldn't trust to oil the spring on a pogo stick. You know the type, they are virtual people, very hologramic and colourful, but when you get up close you realise that there is nothing there, no real substance to them. They blend into the background in their own countries, but stick out like a sore thumb in Spain.

I suggest that the thread title be changed to 'Why Do Some Expats Struggle In Spain?', because most of you guys are expats living in Spain, and are clearly not struggling.


----------



## mrypg9

crookesey said:


> Re the TV programme.
> 
> I bought a flat on a building site in the UK when I was in my 20's, everything turned out fine but I wouldn't repeat the exercise these days, especially in Spain. Some folk are unlucky, some folk are naive, it's when they are both unlucky and naive that this sort of thing happens to them.
> 
> I think that a lot of expats who struggle in Spain might well have struggled back in the UK or wherever they came from. I have met many 'hail fellow well met' guys in Spain who I wouldn't trust to oil the spring on a pogo stick. You know the type, they are virtual people, very hologramic and colourful, but when you get up close you realise that there is nothing there, no real substance to them. They blend into the background in their own countries, but stick out like a sore thumb in Spain.
> 
> I suggest that the thread title be changed to 'Why Do Some Expats Struggle In Spain?', because most of you guys are expats living in Spain, and are clearly not struggling.


No, as I said, I'm just struggling to get some sleep.... 
What you say is also true of our observations of many British expats in Prague.
Not all, of course, but a significant minority. People who have quite boring, go-nowhere jobs,who tended to socialise almost exclusively within a narrow expat circle, get drunk together - drink featured a lot in certain expat groups -, have serial relationships with each other -often after failed marriages to Czechs - and who had smallish businesses which made them big fish in the little Czech pool. People who wouldn't have had any 'success' back home. It's easier to be a mediocrity in the CR and still enjoy life
There were also people who were employed by U.K. or other 'western' companies who were seconded out to the CR to set things up or bring expertise to emerging markets. These were different types altogether. Sharp, smart, capable, ambitious, high earners.
I guess it's the same everywhere but I get the feeling that it's a lot less easy to get by on bulls**t here in Spain. Too many smart people about, too much competition, maybe?


----------



## mcginlay

*Hola*



mrypg9 said:


> No, as I said, I'm just struggling to get some sleep....
> What you say is also true of our observations of many British expats in Prague.
> Not all, of course, but a significant minority. People who have quite boring, go-nowhere jobs,who tended to socialise almost exclusively within a narrow expat circle, get drunk together - drink featured a lot in certain expat groups -, have serial relationships with each other -often after failed marriages to Czechs - and who had smallish businesses which made them big fish in the little Czech pool. People who wouldn't have had any 'success' back home. It's easier to be a mediocrity in the CR and still enjoy life
> There were also people who were employed by U.K. or other 'western' companies who were seconded out to the CR to set things up or bring expertise to emerging markets. These were different types altogether. Sharp, smart, capable, ambitious, high earners.
> I guess it's the same everywhere but I get the feeling that it's a lot less easy to get by on bulls**t here in Spain. Too many smart people about, too much competition, maybe?



To right - people an see b....hiters a mile off now. I have just loaded up two containers to spain and am on the wine now. Little lad kicked off because bed and toys gone nothing to do for two weeks till we fly over, UK still sucks best decision ever!!!


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> No, as I said, I'm just struggling to get some sleep....
> What you say is also true of our observations of many British expats in Prague.
> Not all, of course, but a significant minority. People who have quite boring, go-nowhere jobs,who tended to socialise almost exclusively within a narrow expat circle, get drunk together - drink featured a lot in certain expat groups -, have serial relationships with each other -often after failed marriages to Czechs - and who had smallish businesses which made them big fish in the little Czech pool. People who wouldn't have had any 'success' back home. It's easier to be a mediocrity in the CR and still enjoy life
> There were also people who were employed by U.K. or other 'western' companies who were seconded out to the CR to set things up or bring expertise to emerging markets. These were different types altogether. Sharp, smart, capable, ambitious, high earners.
> I guess it's the same everywhere but I get the feeling that it's a lot less easy to get by on bulls**t here in Spain. Too many smart people about, too much competition, maybe?



mrypg9, heh nice memories of Prague eh? Well I am still here and posting on expats.cz you have not been there for a while.

I took your advice and went to look in Spain around the Marbella, Estepona area as I was thinking about moving to Spain for the winter. It was the end of March and still too cold. 


I think I would struggle living there too. Not financially but culturally.WTF have they done to the coastline. Just motorways and ghetto developments devoid of locals. After a week there I was glad I live in Prague. I loved the seafood, the sea, the moutains. Fantastic views etc. I mean it was nice but to live full time I am not so sure.

The coastline in the CDS was a bit like Disneyland. The whole strech from Malaga to Gibraltar felt contrived and it lacked a sense of purpose apart from being a retirement/holiday playground. I think that would play on my thoughts driving around if I lived there.

We went inland to Ronda as some people said that was "the real Spain" but it was a bit small for me being an urbanite. I could imagine I would get bored there pretty quickly.

The only really place in the south I felt I could live was in Seville. I really liked it but it is not by the sea. So Seville by sea would be for me. Otherwise I think culturally it would have to be Barcelona.

Anyway, it appears it is too cold in Winter anyway so we might go to Australia/Caribbean from January.


----------



## Tallulah

mcginlay said:


> To right - people an see b....hiters a mile off now. I have just loaded up two containers to spain and am on the wine now. Little lad kicked off because bed and toys gone nothing to do for two weeks till we fly over, UK still sucks best decision ever!!!


That's the spirit McGinlay!! 

Didn't you keep a few toys back for the kids? We gave them a bag each to pack a few of their own favourites and the rest went into boxes when we moved over to live with the mother in law whilst we got on with the architect/designing and building the house. Trouble was, 2 and a half years later, we got to unpack those boxes and the kids had outgrown those old toys. But will they throw anything away?? Will they hell....so the boxes are gathering dust in our garage now!

Tally.x


----------



## SunnySpain

maxd said:


> I took your advice and went to look in Spain around the Marbella, Estepona area as I was thinking about moving to Spain for the winter. It was the end of March and still too cold.
> 
> Yes well apparently thats the case, as the properties tend to lack adequate heating and insulation.
> 
> 
> WTF have they done to the coastline. Just motorways and ghetto developments devoid of locals. After a week there I was glad I live in Prague.
> 
> I agree to a point, some of them remind me of council estates next to the sea
> 
> 
> We went inland to Ronda as some people said that was "the real Spain" but it was a bit small for me being an urbanite. I could imagine I would get bored there pretty quickly.
> 
> Yes it is small and would be very boring and out in the middle of nowhe
> 
> 
> The only really place in the south I felt I could live was in Seville. I really liked it but it is not by the sea. So Seville by sea would be for me.
> 
> Seville is nice, but very hot in the summer. Not sure if you are still around to reply, but if so, have you ever been to Cordoba or la costa de la luz ?
> 
> Dave


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> mrypg9, heh nice memories of Prague eh? Well I am still here and posting on expats.cz you have not been there for a while.
> 
> I took your advice and went to look in Spain around the Marbella, Estepona area as I was thinking about moving to Spain for the winter. It was the end of March and still too cold.
> 
> 
> I think I would struggle living there too. Not financially but culturally.WTF have they done to the coastline. Just motorways and ghetto developments devoid of locals. After a week there I was glad I live in Prague. I loved the seafood, the sea, the moutains. Fantastic views etc. I mean it was nice but to live full time I am not so sure.
> 
> The coastline in the CDS was a bit like Disneyland. The whole strech from Malaga to Gibraltar felt contrived and it lacked a sense of purpose apart from being a retirement/holiday playground. I think that would play on my thoughts driving around if I lived there.
> 
> We went inland to Ronda as some people said that was "the real Spain" but it was a bit small for me being an urbanite. I could imagine I would get bored there pretty quickly.
> 
> The only really place in the south I felt I could live was in Seville. I really liked it but it is not by the sea. So Seville by sea would be for me. Otherwise I think culturally it would have to be Barcelona.
> 
> Anyway, it appears it is too cold in Winter anyway so we might go to Australia/Caribbean from January.


Hola, nice to hear from you
My memories of Prague are good ones but I was distinctly unimpressed by some of my expat compatriots. Compare this forum to expats.cz - no infantile chat about sex, no coarse language (thanks to vigilant mods) and a generally more friendly, mature tone. Probably because most of the expats here are mature people who have either retired from successful and rewarding jobs and careers in the UK or are working hard at their new life here.
I loved Prague, it's a beautiful city and I go back often but there are many other beautiful cities in the world which are cleaner and more pleasant to live in than Prague. You have to admit that quality of fresh and processed meat, vegetables etc is low and public (and in many cases!) personal hygiene are simply appalling. I can just imagine the reaction of people here to seeing the bread rolls dumped in wooden crates for all to handle and sneeze over! And seeing rotten fruit and 'fresh' meat past its sell-by date on sale. Public transport is filthy and smelly. And not much of a 'middle market' in clothes, shoes etc. As for restaurants....
Many young expats in the CR have never enjoyed what, for lack of a better term, I'll call a 'middle-class lifestyle' and can't make meaningful comparisons. For them, the fact that beer and burgers are cheap is attraction enough My Czech friends are always moaning about the readiness of most Czechs to accept mediocrity. 
Spaniards would riot if they had to put up with some of the aspects of life in the CR, I think.
You are right about the over-development here, though. Too much of the coast has been ravaged by unsympathetic building. Through sheer luck we have ended up in a short stretch where there is no development of that kind along the coast road for about 3km, just west of San Pedro.
You are also right about the danger of boredom. I've been used to doing lots of different career things and some of what I do involves regular flights around Europe. I've decided I've had enough of all that and it will come to an end this summer. Prague is obviously more central than Southern Spain for travelling around. Now I'm wondering how I'll feel about giving it all up. My son is a keen golfer and suggests I take that up but it doesn't appeal. I might start playing tennis again, though, if I can find anyone useless enough to give me a game. But the day soon passes with the usual routine -the house, cooking, dogwalking etc and it's really great to know you can relax afterwards in the sun by the pool with a good book or friends. 
I've got family in Australia and living there wouldn't appeal to me. Neither would the Caribbean - memories from family holidays aren't that attractive, although living is cheap.
Here is just great pro tem. We may be moving back to our UK base for a while anyway, due to family illness. After a couple of unfortunate starts -living in a flat which we couldn't adapt to, and losing our dream house almost hours before we were due to move in - we've been lucky in that a friend found us this house, which is much nicer and a third less expensive to rent. We have a huge garden for Our Little Azor as the house sits on two large plots and the house is 'interesting'. If I could work out how to do it, I'd send you some photos but I'm c**p at IT. I loved our house in Prague but this is much nicer.
Funnily enough, we considered Seville but we wanted to be near our family.
Thinking about it, I do have a job here,in a way - I manage my son's rental properties. That means I wash and iron the sheets etc and do the cleaning


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Hola, nice to hear from you
> My memories of Prague are good ones but I was distinctly unimpressed by some of my expat compatriots. Compare this forum to expats.cz - no infantile chat about sex, no coarse language (thanks to vigilant mods) and a generally more friendly, mature tone. Probably because most of the expats here are mature people who have either retired from successful and rewarding jobs and careers in the UK or are working hard at their new life here.
> I loved Prague, it's a beautiful city and I go back often but there are many other beautiful cities in the world which are cleaner and more pleasant to live in than Prague. You have to admit that quality of fresh and processed meat, vegetables etc is low and public (and in many cases!) personal hygiene are simply appalling. I can just imagine the reaction of people here to seeing the bread rolls dumped in wooden crates for all to handle and sneeze over! And seeing rotten fruit and 'fresh' meat past its sell-by date on sale. Public transport is filthy and smelly. And not much of a 'middle market' in clothes, shoes etc. As for restaurants....
> Many young expats in the CR have never enjoyed what, for lack of a better term, I'll call a 'middle-class lifestyle' and can't make meaningful comparisons. For them, the fact that beer and burgers are cheap is attraction enough My Czech friends are always moaning about the readiness of most Czechs to accept mediocrity.
> Spaniards would riot if they had to put up with some of the aspects of life in the CR, I think.
> You are right about the over-development here, though. Too much of the coast has been ravaged by unsympathetic building. Through sheer luck we have ended up in a short stretch where there is no development of that kind along the coast road for about 3km, just west of San Pedro.
> You are also right about the danger of boredom. I've been used to doing lots of different career things and some of what I do involves regular flights around Europe. I've decided I've had enough of all that and it will come to an end this summer. Prague is obviously more central than Southern Spain for travelling around. Now I'm wondering how I'll feel about giving it all up. My son is a keen golfer and suggests I take that up but it doesn't appeal. I might start playing tennis again, though, if I can find anyone useless enough to give me a game. But the day soon passes with the usual routine -the house, cooking, dogwalking etc and it's really great to know you can relax afterwards in the sun by the pool with a good book or friends.
> I've got family in Australia and living there wouldn't appeal to me. Neither would the Caribbean - memories from family holidays aren't that attractive, although living is cheap.
> Here is just great pro tem. We may be moving back to our UK base for a while anyway, due to family illness. After a couple of unfortunate starts -living in a flat which we couldn't adapt to, and losing our dream house almost hours before we were due to move in - we've been lucky in that a friend found us this house, which is much nicer and a third less expensive to rent. We have a huge garden for Our Little Azor as the house sits on two large plots and the house is 'interesting'. If I could work out how to do it, I'd send you some photos but I'm c**p at IT. I loved our house in Prague but this is much nicer.
> Funnily enough, we considered Seville but we wanted to be near our family.
> Thinking about it, I do have a job here,in a way - I manage my son's rental properties. That means I wash and iron the sheets etc and do the cleaning


Mary, In general I love Spain, but I have usually been in Barcelona and Madrid for business, so it was my first trip down South apart from a wedding in Cordoba last year.

I guess comparing Prague and the CDS is apples and oranges as one is a city and the other is a coastline  What I do know is the usual rule applies that the grass is always greener somewhere esle.

I am not sure if my life would differ there compared to here as I we have a house and I work from home. I would do the same thing there I guess but I got the feeling that it was not for me because of A) The crazy development B) The huge population of Brits.

I am not sure why point B really puts me off as I have nothing against my own population on an individual basis. I think it is seeing so many English people abroad sort of makes you feel like one of the sheep or something.

Obviously the crass elements of British society, like seeing a family of chavs, reminds you why you left in the first place, so I guess bumping into Billy Britain and his kids in Marbella can conjure up negative thoughts. 

Apologies to any chavs reading this post.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Mary, In general I love Spain, but I have usually been in Barcelona and Madrid for business, so it was my first trip down South apart from a wedding in Cordoba last year.
> 
> I guess comparing Prague and the CDS is apples and oranges as one is a city and the other is a coastline  What I do know is the usual rule applies that the grass is always greener somewhere esle.
> 
> I am not sure if my life would differ there compared to here as I we have a house and I work from home. I would do the same thing there I guess but I got the feeling that it was not for me because of A) The crazy development B) The huge population of Brits.
> 
> I am not sure why point B really puts me off as I have nothing against my own population on an individual basis. I think it is seeing so many English people abroad sort of makes you feel like one of the sheep or something.
> 
> Obviously the crass elements of British society, like seeing a family of chavs, reminds you why you left in the first place, so I guess bumping into Billy Britain and his kids in Marbella can conjure up negative thoughts.
> 
> Apologies to any chavs reading this post.


I think there are more chavs in Prague than Marbella, to be honest. And an awful lot of Czechs look and behave like chavs. And Marbella isn't cheap, neither does it have the more family-friendly attractions of other CDS resorts. You are more likely to bump into 'Billy Britain and kids' having a good time -and why not? - further up the coast than in Marbella. You might bump into the odd member of the Saudi Royal family, though, or a Russian Mafia boss, or a British mobster, from what I've read. 
Comparing Prague and the CDS is like comparing apples to oranges but not just because they're coast and city. Prague, albeit beautiful in parts, is poor, rundown and although attractive for weekend trips it's interesting that few people mahke return visits, unlike ASmsterdam or Barcelona, say.
As for unsightly developments - Prague has more than its share of gruesome apartment blocks, both recently built and older. Some of the newer housing developments on the city edges are as soulless and drab as their UK counterparts. It's amazing what sunlight can do to otherwise unprepossessing places, though.
I 'm not so sure that 'the grass is always greener' axiom applies here. You judge a place on its merits or lack of, not a continual longing for the elusive 'something better'. There's good and bad points about every place. 
An elderly friend from London, who couldn't face the thought of selling her expensively serviced London (Hampstead) flat only to move into cheaper accommodation in a less 'desireable'area, moved to Prague last July. She took a sizeable amount of capital with her and has moved into a very pleasant 40000czk monthly rented apartment in Vinohrady. She e-mailed me last week to tell me she is happier than she has ever been in her whole life. 
But then she has loads of cash to spend -she reckons on having only ten years or so left to live and wants to spend it all -and can afford the best on offer. She has a hectic social life with loads of luncheon parties, mah jong and bridge evenings and rarely if ever cooks a meal. She can enjoy a lifestyle way beyond her financial means in the UK. On a less opulent scale that was true for us and is true for very many other expats in Prague and elsewhere in the CR. But I wanted a better quality of life in the most basic material sense -like being able to buy meat without thinking you might be suffering from food poisoning after you'd eaten it. 
And I'm not exaggerating - incidence of Hepatitus A is alarmingly high in the CR.
In the end, it comes down to individual taste and tolerance.Like most things in life, really....


----------



## mrypg9

Conicidentally, I've just had an e-mail from that old friend in Prague. And guess what???? She was commenting on the huge number of British tourists in Prague now and the awful behaviour of a sizeable minority! Prague is becoming Chav Central.. Brawling, obscenity-chanting drunks disturbing the peace...
My experience too has been that you are more likely to encounter 'Billy Britain' in Prague than on the Costas.
I've been here on my own for the past week,been dogwalking, shopping and have heard English spoken only on my Sky tv. Shopping and conversations with friends have been conducted in bad but thankfully comprehensible Spanish on my part.
It may have been different if I'd dined at one of our local restaurants, though, but then non-Czechs made up the bulk of the patrons in the better Prague restaurants.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Conicidentally, I've just had an e-mail from that old friend in Prague. And guess what???? She was commenting on the huge number of British tourists in Prague now and the awful behaviour of a sizeable minority! Prague is becoming Chav Central.. Brawling, obscenity-chanting drunks disturbing the peace...
> My experience too has been that you are more likely to encounter 'Billy Britain' in Prague than on the Costas.
> I've been here on my own for the past week,been dogwalking, shopping and have heard English spoken only on my Sky tv. Shopping and conversations with friends have been conducted in bad but thankfully comprehensible Spanish on my part.
> It may have been different if I'd dined at one of our local restaurants, though, but then non-Czechs made up the bulk of the patrons in the better Prague restaurants.


Ist it sad that the rest of the world see Brits as "obscenity-chanting drunks disturbing the peace". I know we're not all like that, in fact I guess thats why a lot of us left Britain cos of the tolerance of this kind of behaviour there. It seems that not only is it getting worse in there, but these "chavs" are almost proud to be spreading their disgusting culture across the globe!

I'm not proud to British!

Jo xx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Ist it sad that the rest of the world see Brits as "obscenity-chanting drunks disturbing the peace". I know we're not all like that, in fact I guess thats why a lot of us left Britain cos of the tolerance of this kind of behaviour there. It seems that not only is it getting worse in there, but these "chavs" are almost proud to be spreading their disgusting culture across the globe!
> 
> I'm not proud to British!
> 
> Jo xx


I once bumped into a mob of stag party Brits in the famous Wenceslas Square, Prague. They were all dressed as women with wigs and make up and just looked totally pathetic. The locals just looked at them with pity and disgust. 
Yet these men who dress up like that for 'fun' would probably beat up any real transvestite or transgendered person they came across.
When I fly to the UK now I go BA via Gibraltar as I had too many awful experiences with British yobs on EasyJet flights to Prague. It put me off for life. 
Most of my flights are paid for but when I have to fork out myself I'd rather bite the bullet and pay extra for a more civilised experience.
And 'cheap flights' aren't always cheaper. A friend flew from Gib to Gatwick with BA last week for £94 return. It seems that many budget airlines now charge for hold luggage and Ryanair is even closing its check-in desks so you have to check in online to avoid paying £40 per passenger for the 'privilege' of airport check-in.
It's not always easy to check in online for your return flight if you're holidaying in some remote part of a Greek island...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I once bumped into a mob of stag party Brits in the famous Wenceslas Square, Prague. They were all dressed as women with wigs and make up and just looked totally pathetic. The locals just looked at them with pity and disgust.
> Yet these men who dress up like that for 'fun' would probably beat up any real transvestite or transgendered person they came across.
> When I fly to the UK now I go BA via Gibraltar as I had too many awful experiences with British yobs on EasyJet flights to Prague. It put me off for life.
> Most of my flights are paid for but when I have to fork out myself I'd rather bite the bullet and pay extra for a more civilised experience.
> And 'cheap flights' aren't always cheaper. A friend flew from Gib to Gatwick with BA last week for £94 return. It seems that many budget airlines now charge for hold luggage and Ryanair is even closing its check-in desks so you have to check in online to avoid paying £40 per passenger for the 'privilege' of airport check-in.
> It's not always easy to check in online for your return flight if you're holidaying in some remote part of a Greek island...


My husband is the "king" of cheap flights cos he's back and forth all the time. He says he can spot the trouble makers a mile off and often wonders why they even let them on the plane (cos it would politically incorrect not and human rights would destroy em!!). He has seen trouble-making chavs removed from a flight once and that delayed the flight for several hours(paperwork and getting their lugguage off)

The UK are too tolerant and too lenient IMO. Bring back the "birch"!!!!!



Jo xx


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## crookesey

jojo said:


> My husband is the "king" of cheap flights cos he's back and forth all the time. He says he can spot the trouble makers a mile off and often wonders why they even let them on the plane (cos it would politically incorrect not and human rights would destroy em!!). He has seen trouble-making chavs removed from a flight once and that delayed the flight for several hours(paperwork and getting their lugguage off)
> 
> The UK are too tolerant and too lenient IMO. Bring back the "birch"!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Now don't hold back Jo, speak your mind girl.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> My husband is the "king" of cheap flights cos he's back and forth all the time. He says he can spot the trouble makers a mile off and often wonders why they even let them on the plane (cos it would politically incorrect not and human rights would destroy em!!). He has seen trouble-making chavs removed from a flight once and that delayed the flight for several hours(paperwork and getting their lugguage off)
> 
> The UK are too tolerant and too lenient IMO. Bring back the "birch"!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Oh yes, I agree. And the pillory and stocks too. I'm serious - an hour being pelted with soft, very ripe fruit with a placrd saying 'I am an anti-social vandal' might work wonders in making our cities more peaceful. It would certainly take some of the strutting arrogance out of these cocky young thugs.
I once flew from Birmingham to Prague on a BMI Baby flight with loads of stags and hens. They were drunk before they got on and the very young female cabin crew couldn't control them - in fact, they served them with more alcohol. They stood up and wandered around even when the captain told them to sit down over the PA, even when making the descent into Prague and the obscene chanting and singing upset other passengers with children.
BMI Baby were at the time running adverts aimed at attracting business travellers. As a business traveller I e-mailed them describing the flight and asking for their comments.
Guess what: no reply.
So I don't use BMI. When I go to Birmingham, I fly to London and go by Virgin train.


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## Zimtony

jojo said:


> My husband is the "king" of cheap flights cos he's back and forth all the time. He says he can spot the trouble makers a mile off and often wonders why they even let them on the plane (cos it would politically incorrect not and human rights would destroy em!!). He has seen trouble-making chavs removed from a flight once and that delayed the flight for several hours(paperwork and getting their lugguage off)
> 
> The UK are too tolerant and too lenient IMO. Bring back the "birch"!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Jo, I agree. A good thrashing would soon sort them out! I would even lend hem my sjambok!!


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## XTreme

Zimtony said:


> A good thrashing would soon sort them out!


I know some of the ladies here can be a bit slow Tony.......but a good thrashing is a bit harsh!

Maybe a little spanking would be more in order!


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## Tallulah

*Paradise Lost???*

So, there I was, cup in hand, settling in to watch this eye-opening, well thought out and informative diagnostic programme from ITV and just as I was enjoying the tale of the folk running the Rusty Nail cafe bar, and the fact that they didn't speak Spanish and felt uncomfortable at not being able to serve Spanish customers, the programme decided to stop working (oi Strav, what's going on with my FilmON?? The microwave wasn't even on for my bedtime hot choc, neither were my economy light bulbs). Oh well, price you pay for free beta telly I guess.

Anyway, point is : did anyone manage to see it? Anything new we didn't know already - like...the person who very sadly found, shortly after her husband died, that their property was illegally built on rustic land. Missed the rest, but was intrigued to learn this bit as one wonders how long had they lived there and how could it be that only when trying to sell, she found this out?? One assumes that land registry, etc was not mentioned in that segment of the programme....or was it??? 

One bit that intrigued me was a couple leaving what looked like an attractive home down a nice drive and all I caught in the audio was the wife saying "I don't want to be here anymore". Is it me, or are these people being reported on either failed business people, or people who have what in the UK would be judged as extremely wealthy, if not millionaire's properties. Question then, as with so many mortgage holders back in the UK going into negative equity (as in the late 80s/early 90s crisis) did these people over stretch when they got here and saw the reachable pooled villas, not once thinking about the x % slack for the bad times? Or were they all unfortunate people caught out by corrupt officials who gave licences for illegal builds and they didn't have the knowledge/advice or mistrust to check for themselves??

Anyone who saw the entire programme (Strav?!?!) please advise.:ranger:

Tally.xx


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## jojo

I saw the programme and Actually the people who'd bought houses on the rustic land (from the angle ITV wanted us to see) were unfairly treated. They bought their properties about 4 - 5 years ago in good faith, all the paperwork was present and correct and it was made known to them that altho the land hadnt been officially allocated as building land, it wouldnt be a problem. So off they went and moved in and did the paradise routine, when one day a letter arrived from the Junta, telling them their homes were to be demolished .... out of the blue, just like that!!??? If this is how it happened then I guess its pretty unfair, assuming that they were advised to go ahead by their notaries?????? And we all know that there have been some "issues" with Mayors over dodgy house building on rustic land... we have them all in our local Penitentiary, here in Alhaurin de la torre


Jo xxx


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## jojo

.. as for the people who bought "the rusty nail"??? what can one say on an open forum, apart from let that be a warning to all those who think they can sell up in the UK, buy a bar and have a wonderful, relaxed, high quality life in Sunny Spain. I'm not even gonna mention the "Marbella" floosy!!!! That northern hairdresser??? Is he still going? do we know????


Jo


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## Tallulah

jojo said:


> I saw the programme and Actually the people who'd bought houses on the rustic land (from the angle ITV wanted us to see) were unfairly treated. They bought their properties about 4 - 5 years ago in good faith, all the paperwork was present and correct and it was made known to them that altho the land hadnt been officially allocated as building land, it wouldnt be a problem. So off they went and moved in and did the paradise routine, when one day a letter arrived from the Junta, telling them their homes were to be demolished .... out of the blue, just like that!!??? If this is how it happened then I guess its pretty unfair, assuming that they were advised to go ahead by their notaries?????? And we all know that there have been some "issues" with Mayors over dodgy house building on rustic land... we have them all in our local Penitentiary, here in Alhaurin de la torre
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks for letting me know what I missed there. The sad thing is, that although you hear this so often about dodgy mayors, they actually, in law, have nothing to do with the granting of licences to build. It is the ayuntamiento's perito who does this and he is not a voted in civil servant and he should be following the plan urbano in place at the time. It saddens me how many people i have heard say that the mayor said ... 

If only people would check their paperwork and see if land registry and Catastro agreed with it. Chances are, that these illegal builds don't appear on the Registro de Propiedad. That would stop me in my tracks. 

I'm not sure what the best way of getting people to realise that the conveyancy process in Spain differs greatly to the UK. There is no conveyancy solicitor as such. But the process that they go through in the UK is pretty much identical to the one here. Make sure the seller owns the (entire) property. Make sure what you're buying is what you're getting (you think you're buying 2000m2 and in fact 500m2 belongs to next door or some such). Ensure all registries are correct and reflect reality. An individual can do this fairly quickly in Spain given that the vendor must work with them. With the vendor's deed details, anyone can check the ayuntamiento's urban plans to match Catastro records and finally, the Registro de Propiedad. If land, names, charges, etc don't equate to what the buyer is expecting, pull out. Simple as.

See if I can't get this blinking thing to work for next week (STRAV!!!). I'm missing Big Brother!!

Tally.xx


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## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Thanks for letting me know what I missed there. The sad thing is, that although you hear this so often about dodgy mayors, they actually, in law, have nothing to do with the granting of licences to build. It is the ayuntamiento's perito who does this and he is not a voted in civil servant and he should be following the plan urbano in place at the time. It saddens me how many people i have heard say that the mayor said ...
> 
> If only people would check their paperwork and see if land registry and Catastro agreed with it. Chances are, that these illegal builds don't appear on the Registro de Propiedad. That would stop me in my tracks.
> 
> I'm not sure what the best way of getting people to realise that the conveyancy process in Spain differs greatly to the UK. There is no conveyancy solicitor as such. But the process that they go through in the UK is pretty much identical to the one here. Make sure the seller owns the (entire) property. Make sure what you're buying is what you're getting (you think you're buying 2000m2 and in fact 500m2 belongs to next door or some such). Ensure all registries are correct and reflect reality. An individual can do this fairly quickly in Spain given that the vendor must work with them. With the vendor's deed details, anyone can check the ayuntamiento's urban plans to match Catastro records and finally, the Registro de Propiedad. If land, names, charges, etc don't equate to what the buyer is expecting, pull out. Simple as.
> 
> See if I can't get this blinking thing to work for next week (STRAV!!!). I'm missing Big Brother!!
> 
> Tally.xx


These people dont understand the spanish system and fair or not, right or wrong, surely they should be able to put their faith in their Notaries? 

Jo xx


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## Tallulah

jojo said:


> These people dont understand the spanish system and fair or not, right or wrong, surely they should be able to put their faith in their Notaries?
> 
> Jo xx


They can. Unfortunately, the notary will act in his/her capacity which does not include the designation of building plots at any given point in time. His/her record will show, and it will be 100% legally bulletproof that so-and-so paid such-and-such a given amount for a given asset. Transfer of papers will take place, and the new owner can go home with the peace of mind that said asset is now legally their's. It said in the programme, from what you said earlier, that the land was not a legal building plot - but they had been told that it will be all right. Would they have built, for example, an extension to their property, let alone a house in the UK becuase someone said it would be OK, or would they expect to get the planning permission from the relevant authorities?? I'm sorry, but "they said it would be OK" just seems a little weak to me. Is it me?! The Gestoria would be the place to advise on due process on purchasing of land/properties and would act as the agent to purchase. The Notario's job is to transfer ownership and all relevant processes thereof. Once the notario has done that, there is no question as to who owns what. The notario's job once deeds are presented and transfer of deeds is carried out, is done. 

Tally.xx


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## mrypg9

The best comment from the programme was the commercial estate agent who said that people leave their brains behind on the plane.
What can be expected, other than failure, if, with absolutely no business experience and no knowledge of Spanish you leave everything behind to start a bar/cafe in Spain...during a recession!!!! And they knew that the previous owner had had the property on the market for three years before they bought it. Did they ask themselves Why?
I felt sorry for the people whose homes will probably be demolished, although there again, someone should have known that you can't just build on green land. You can't in the UK.
I think I would have checked to ensure everything was above board. After all, it seemed strange that a development like that should be permitted in an agricultural setting.
But when all is said and done, it's sad that people should be in these awful situations at the end of their working lives. They didn't strike me as being particularly well-off either. People with money will always survive - basic fact of life. That's why Marbella and the upper end of the property market are still thriving.
What I can't understand is that many of these people had nothing to go back to in the UK. They were just trusting that their UK incomes, presumably from pensions, would see them through to the end of their days. Most of them didn't speak Spanish so were ill-equipped to deal with officialdom if the need arose.
I don't think I could take that kind of risk. Keep your UK property and rent is the safest course.
And after all, you can only do what your income allows. Everyone has limits.
I think package holidays have a lot to answer for.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> The best comment from the programme was the commercial estate agent who said that people leave their brains behind on the plane.
> What can be expected, other than failure, if, with absolutely no business experience and no knowledge of Spanish you leave everything behind to start a bar/cafe in Spain...during a recession!!!! And they knew that the previous owner had had the property on the market for three years before they bought it. Did they ask themselves Why?
> I felt sorry for the people whose homes will probably be demolished, although there again, someone should have known that you can't just build on green land. You can't in the UK.
> I think I would have checked to ensure everything was above board. After all, it seemed strange that a development like that should be permitted in an agricultural setting.
> But when all is said and done, it's sad that people should be in these awful situations at the end of their working lives. They didn't strike me as being particularly well-off either. People with money will always survive - basic fact of life. That's why Marbella and the upper end of the property market are still thriving.
> What I can't understand is that many of these people had nothing to go back to in the UK. They were just trusting that their UK incomes, presumably from pensions, would see them through to the end of their days. Most of them didn't speak Spanish so were ill-equipped to deal with officialdom if the need arose.
> I don't think I could take that kind of risk. Keep your UK property and rent is the safest course.
> And after all, you can only do what your income allows. Everyone has limits.
> I think package holidays have a lot to answer for.



I just wrote a really long post answering this, and then my PC crashed and I lost it!

But it was basically saying, why is it the government wait until these properties are built and sold before they decide they must be demolished????

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

Tallulah said:


> So, there I was, cup in hand, settling in to watch this eye-opening, well thought out and informative diagnostic programme from ITV


Hi!
Can you tell me what programme you're talking about? Is it "Spain: Paradise Lost"?
If so does anyone know how I can watch it? It would have to be downloaded from somewhere as I only have "ordinary" TV. I can't find it on youtube and I can't find any download link on good old Google...


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## maxd

That rusty nail place looked grim. Especially with the fat bloke with the tattoos standing outside. That would put me off going in there for a start. 

I sort of felt sorry for their naivety though as it was their only 50k they invested but as with any investment it is never 100% and they should not have bet the farm.


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## Tallulah

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi!
> Can you tell me what programme you're talking about? Is it "Spain: Paradise Lost"?
> If so does anyone know how I can watch it? It would have to be downloaded from somewhere as I only have "ordinary" TV. I can't find it on youtube and I can't find any download link on good old Google...


Hey you! Thanks for the pm earlier - I'll find the link for you and pm you with it. It's been great so far, just very problematic last night - maybe something to do with the beta streaming. Bear in mind though that we've only got 1mb here so that might also have something to do with it. It's all completely over my head though - that's hubby's job!! As long as I get to see a few of my favourites, I'm a happy bunny!

Tally.xx


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> That rusty nail place looked grim. Especially with the fat bloke with the tattoos standing outside. That would put me off going in there for a start.
> 
> I sort of felt sorry for their naivety though as it was their only 50k they invested but as with any investment it is never 100% and they should not have bet the farm.



Yes, it didn't look too appetising. And that place with those people with their plates of Yorkshire Pudding and roast beef... 
More Brits there than Prague, maxd - and that's saying something
My friend was moaning again about all the tourists clogging up the city centre.
Seriously, though, you are right. People don't seem to understand that the free market is based on winners....and losers too. Some people don't seem to have heard of the terms 'market research' and 'business plan'.
I'm rather risk-averse which is why I was glad we decided we'd keep somewhere to go back to when we felt we'd had enough of travelling around. Selling everything back home is too much of a leap in the dark for me. Selling 'everything' in our case meant selling what we didn't expect to use.
We may well have to go back to the UK for a while - family health problems - and I'm not looking forward to it. 
Next week should be my last business trip to London and I was hoping to enjoy summer in Spain. Hopefully that will still be the case.
I think the moral of the ITV programmes was that you should never burn your bridges. Unless of course you have enough money to be able to pay your own fire crews when needed:
Incidentally, after hearing Marbella described as 'fun, fashionable and sexy' on the programme, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm fit to set foot there


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, after hearing Marbella described as 'fun, fashionable and sexy' on the programme, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm fit to set foot there


Well my impression of Marbella when I've visited there was that it was rather a big, ugly, grubby place, Puerto Banus had some nice boats, cars and shops, but it didnt seem "all that" to me

Maybe I went to the wrong bits of town, but I was thoroughly underwhelmed!

Jo xxx


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## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> Well my impression of Marbella when I've visited there was that it was rather a big, ugly, grubby place, Puerto Banus had some nice boats, cars and shops, but it didnt seem "all that" to me
> 
> Maybe I went to the wrong bits of town, but I was thoroughly underwhelmed!
> 
> Jo xxx


Thats interesting as we quite like Marbella although it is rather expensive and egotistic. We are not overly keen on Puerto Banus, it just seems to be full of chavs and people who think they are Madonna - lol

Dave


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I just wrote a really long post answering this, and then my PC crashed and I lost it!
> 
> But it was basically saying, why is it the government wait until these properties are built and sold before they decide they must be demolished????
> 
> Jo xxx


Presumably because, as in the UK, planning is the responsibility primarily of local, not national government. And from the numbers of Mayors, Councillors and planning officials who've been charged with corruption, it seems as if many of these people thought their prime responsibility was to enrich themselves by taking backhanders from unscrupulous developers.
But everyone who can read knows that buying property in Spain is not a straightforward process. There's been shed loads of publicity about crooked lawyers and dodgy deals.Even in the UK, it's your responsibility at the end of the day to keep as eye on your solicitor. Not for nothing is the 'phrase employed: * to instruct* ones solicitor'.
The only foreign country I've bought property in was Canada and the Canadian system is so open and transparent that there is very little danger of double-cross. 
It's the one place I know of where a handshake is regarded as binding.
If you have the ready cash, a deal can be concluded, keys in your hand, within twenty-four hours!
But even there you can't shut your brain down. Caveat emptor is always a good rule.


----------



## SteveHall

I think the moral of the ITV programmes was that you should never burn your bridges. Unless of course you have enough money to be able to pay your own fire crews when needed:

SUPERB expression!!! I expect to use that regularly. Elsewhere it's called theft (or plagiarism) On the internet? Duplication!


----------



## mrypg9

SunnySpain said:


> Thats interesting as we quite like Marbella although it is rather expensive and egotistic. We are not overly keen on Puerto Banus, it just seems to be full of chavs and people who think they are Madonna - lol
> 
> Dave


Both are OK for the occasional visit, although sometimes I think you need to take out a mortgage if you plan on dining there.
Your description of Puerto Banus is spot on - loads of people with money, bling and very little taste. 
I often wonder if these types have any real money behind them or if it's just show based on debts and scams.


----------



## mrypg9

SteveHall said:


> I think the moral of the ITV programmes was that you should never burn your bridges. Unless of course you have enough money to be able to pay your own fire crews when needed:
> 
> SUPERB expression!!! I expect to use that regularly. Elsewhere it's called theft (or plagiarism) On the internet? Duplication!


Feel free
I enjoy reading your posts, they are helpful and informative, so any little payback I can give
I need a swim, I was on 'airport duty' this morning...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Both are OK for the occasional visit, although sometimes I think you need to take out a mortgage if you plan on dining there.
> Your description of Puerto Banus is spot on - loads of people with money, bling and very little taste.
> I often wonder if these types have any real money behind them or if it's just show based on debts and scams.



apart from the odd one or two "facelifts" and "medallion men" wandering around, I got the impression most people there were just like us! walking along a harbour with boats and going gaga at the prices in the "designer shops"!!


Jo xxx


----------



## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> apart from the odd one or two "facelifts" and "medallion men" wandering around, I got the impression most people there were just like us! walking along a harbour with boats and going gaga at the prices in the "designer shops"!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I made the mistake of buying a pint of beer in Puerto Banus, never again it cost me 11 euros


----------



## Suenneil

jojo said:


> apart from the odd one or two "facelifts" and "medallion men" wandering around, I got the impression most people there were just like us! walking along a harbour with boats and going gaga at the prices in the "designer shops"!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I hate the place .... its like Soho at nighttime! I worked in an office overlooking the port a couple of years ago and was always fascinated with some of the visitors! particularly early evenings when the silicon enhanced ones came out to play .... and the personalised number plates with such stylish words as "loaded" and "cash1" !! ..... sooooooooooooo not cool! ...... synthetic people with synthetic brains!


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> I hate the place .... its like Soho at nighttime! I worked in an office overlooking the port a couple of years ago and was always fascinated with some of the visitors! particularly early evenings when the silicon enhanced ones came out to play .... and the personalised number plates with such stylish words as "loaded" and "cash1" !! ..... sooooooooooooo not cool! ...... synthetic people with synthetic brains!


A great description! I always feel a bit old and faded ion such glamorous company so....I'm considering spraying myself with fake tan, dying my hair an even lighter shade of blonde, getting a of skin tight white jeans (Versace of course) and a leopard skin patterned Tshirt. Oh, and hiring an oldish orange Ferrari...Then I'd feel like one of the in-crowd.
I once bought a nearly-new BMW in the UK, it came with the plate B16BUX. Go figure...
To the astonishment of the salesman, I refused to drive the vehicle until he had the plates changed. He told me the plate was worth a lot of money. I told him I had friends and a reputation of sorts
I once saw a RollsRoyce outside the Steak'n'Rib Shack proudly bearing the plate 'MYWAG0N' Says it all.
As a friend once said, 'There are the Rolls Royce driving classes and the Rolls Royce owning classes'.
Which reminds me, I must wheel my bike down to the garage to get some air in the tyres...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> A great description! I always feel a bit old and faded ion such glamorous company so....I'm considering spraying myself with fake tan, dying my hair an even lighter shade of blonde, getting a of skin tight white jeans (Versace of course) and a leopard skin patterned Tshirt. Oh, and hiring an oldish orange Ferrari...Then I'd feel like one of the in-crowd.
> I once bought a nearly-new BMW in the UK, it came with the plate B16BUX. Go figure...
> To the astonishment of the salesman, I refused to drive the vehicle until he had the plates changed. He told me the plate was worth a lot of money. I told him I had friends and a reputation of sorts
> I once saw a RollsRoyce outside the Steak'n'Rib Shack proudly bearing the plate 'MYWAG0N' Says it all.
> As a friend once said, 'There are the Rolls Royce driving classes and the Rolls Royce owning classes'.
> Which reminds me, I must wheel my bike down to the garage to get some air in the tyres...



huh... listen to her and look at "mrypg9"s location on her profile!!!!!!!!!  

Jo xxxx


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> A great description! I always feel a bit old and faded ion such glamorous company so....I'm considering spraying myself with fake tan, dying my hair an even lighter shade of blonde, getting a of skin tight white jeans (Versace of course) and a leopard skin patterned Tshirt. Oh, and hiring an oldish orange Ferrari...Then I'd feel like one of the in-crowd.
> I once bought a nearly-new BMW in the UK, it came with the plate B16BUX. Go figure...
> To the astonishment of the salesman, I refused to drive the vehicle until he had the plates changed. He told me the plate was worth a lot of money. I told him I had friends and a reputation of sorts
> I once saw a RollsRoyce outside the Steak'n'Rib Shack proudly bearing the plate 'MYWAG0N' Says it all.
> As a friend once said, 'There are the Rolls Royce driving classes and the Rolls Royce owning classes'.
> Which reminds me, I must wheel my bike down to the garage to get some air in the tyres...


I know what you mean with the number plates etc !  My dad was once a chauffuer for a very well do gentleman, his family and his company .... and they were unbelievably loaded! and he was class itself. BUT generally, the difference is people like him who had loads of money, class and standards never felt the need to shove it in your face ---- and those who like to think they have it or have it and need to shout very loudly about it ...and have no class at all !lane:


----------



## maxd

Suenneil said:


> I know what you mean with the number plates etc !  My dad was once a chauffuer for a very well do gentleman, his family and his company .... and they were unbelievably loaded! and he was class itself. BUT generally, the difference is people like him who had loads of money, class and standards never felt the need to shove it in your face ---- and those who like to think they have it or have it and need to shout very loudly about it ...and have no class at all !lane:


I'll get my coat then. Guilty of a owning a Lambo and a Ferrari. But once you earn some money, own a house outright etc you need to waste money on something frivolous otherwise life is dull. The only alternative is to reinvest in business. 

People just think you are rubbing it in their face because they do not own one.


----------



## jojo

maxd said:


> I'll get my coat then. Guilty of a owning a Lambo and a Ferrari. But once you earn some money, own a house outright etc you need to waste money on something frivolous otherwise life is dull. The only alternative is to reinvest in business.
> 
> People just think you are rubbing it in their face because they do not own one.


but thats the case isnt it???? I know when you have a comfortable ammount of money you kinda just move the decimal point along and therefore whatever you buy is the same percentage of your income and of course, its nice to have "the best" but there is always a certain ammount of "look I must be successful cos I have lotsa money"

I think if I had limitless ammounts of money, I wouldnt tell too many people cos actually it can go the other way and people who think you're rubbing their faces in it, actually become jealous and resentful. I prefer people see me as me and not as "miss moneybags"!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> but thats the case isnt it???? I know when you have a comfortable ammount of money you kinda just move the decimal point along and therefore whatever you buy is the same percentage of your income and of course, its nice to have "the best" but there is always a certain ammount of "look I must be successful cos I have lotsa money"
> 
> I think if I had limitless ammounts of money, I wouldnt tell too many people cos actually it can go the other way and people who think you're rubbing their faces in it, actually become jealous and resentful. I prefer people see me as me and not as "miss moneybags"!!
> 
> Jo xxx


What a lovely way of saying "flash git". Jo, you have a nicer way with words than me hon!!! 

Tally.xxx


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> What a lovely way of saying "flash git". Jo, you have a nicer way with words than me hon!!!
> 
> Tally.xxx


.......... and is he married ?????????????????????? 

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> .......... and is he married ??????????????????????
> 
> Jo xxx


Don't even go there...he'd spend far too much time attending to the wrong kind of bodywork - his cars!1


----------



## maxd

See what I mean  The ***** slapping started already


----------



## Tallulah

maxd said:


> See what I mean  The ***** slapping started already


***** slapping???? You wanna stop that. You'll go blind.


----------



## jojo

maxd said:


> See what I mean  The ***** slapping started already


Its a hard life isnt it !!!!!!!

We're only teasing, mind you, what you have to ask yourself is how do you know that there arent others on here with "a few bob in the bank" and flash cars at home???? :tongue1::tongue1::tongue1:

Jo xxx


----------



## maxd

jojo said:


> Its a hard life isnt it !!!!!!!
> 
> We're only teasing, mind you, what you have to ask yourself is how do you know that there arent others on here with "a few bob in the bank" and flash cars at home???? :tongue1::tongue1::tongue1:
> 
> Jo xxx


OK you got me. I am really the guy form the rusty nail


----------



## jojo

maxd said:


> OK you got me. I am really the guy form the rusty nail


LOL and I'm really the "duchess" who sells posh gaffs in Marbella  the veyrons parked outside dharling!!!!


Jo xxx


----------



## maxd

jojo said:


> LOL and I'm really the "duchess" who sells posh gaffs in Marbella  the veyrons parked outside dharling!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Looks like you got your funky mop cut by the hetro hairdresser too at 150 euros a pop!!


----------



## jojo

maxd said:


> Looks like you got your funky mop cut by the hetro hairdresser too at 150 euros a pop!!


(dont tell anyone, but mostly I do it myself!!) I've yet to find a hairdresser that I really like, cheap or dear... in fact probably the best hairdresser I've been to was the little spanish lady down the road, who'd turned her garage into a salon and charged 7€ for a cut and blow dry... trouble is her grandchild insisted on sitting on my lap and chatting to me in spanish while it was being cut!!! :confused2:

I wonder if that guy is still in Marbella??? anyone know???

:

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> (dont tell anyone, but mostly I do it myself!!) I've yet to find a hairdresser that I really like, cheap or dear... in fact probably the best hairdresser I've been to was the little spanish lady down the road, who'd turned her garage into a salon and charged 7€ for a cut and blow dry... trouble is her grandchild insisted on sitting on my lap and chatting to me in spanish while it was being cut!!! :confused2:
> 
> I wonder if that guy is still in Marbella??? anyone know???
> 
> :
> 
> Jo xxx


so you got a free spanish lesson thrown in:clap2:


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> so you got a free spanish lesson thrown in:clap2:


hhhhhmmmm, I didnt see it like that!! My, arent you a positive thinker Xabia 

Jo xxx


----------



## Chica

bellyup said:


> Help please
> How does one start a thread here?


Hi bellyup,
If it's the Spain forum you want to post on click on the Spain Forum link that's down the right hand side then new thread. 
Good luck


----------



## Suenneil

maxd said:


> I'll get my coat then. Guilty of a owning a Lambo and a Ferrari. But once you earn some money, own a house outright etc you need to waste money on something frivolous otherwise life is dull. The only alternative is to reinvest in business.
> 
> People just think you are rubbing it in their face because they do not own one.


Im happy that you have done well for yourself (presumably done well ?? and worked hard ??) ..... thats to be applauded!! :clap2::clap2::clap2: I was trying to make the differential between money where its not shoved in your face with the IM WORTH MILLIONS number plates and blonde, silicone enhanced girlies around that are 20 years younger and obviously love these men for their charm, wit and personality!! NOT !!!!! .... and the money people who have the personality, the charm and the class ..... I know people with and without money ... and they are all lovely people ... because I try to choose my friends based on who they are ... not on what they own ....


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> hhhhhmmmm, I didnt see it like that!! My, arent you a positive thinker Xabia
> 
> Jo xxx


I do try


----------



## maxd

Suenneil said:


> Im happy that you have done well for yourself (presumably done well ?? and worked hard ??) ..... thats to be applauded!! :clap2::clap2::clap2: I was trying to make the differential between money where its not shoved in your face with the IM WORTH MILLIONS number plates and blonde, silicone enhanced girlies around that are 20 years younger and obviously love these men for their charm, wit and personality!! NOT !!!!! .... and the money people who have the personality, the charm and the class ..... I know people with and without money ... and they are all lovely people ... because I try to choose my friends based on who they are ... not on what they own ....


I agree the number plate is a bit tacky but why not let them enjoy it? Seems it annoys you more than anyone else. Americans I meet are pretty cool about money stuff but the Brits with their superiority complex deem it all too crass. Even if you have a lot of money you are supposed to go and buy a mondeo or something in socialist British society to not "show off" That is if Gordon Brown has not taxed it all to death.


I hang out with the sports car guys on weekends and basically there are all sorts. I would say it is a split between older married businessmen, playboys and trust fund kids. The ones who talk about money you know immediately that their car is financed and we usually take the piss to bring them down to earth.

If you are in the meeting of course you wonder what other people do to get their car and want to compare penis size but you get to know them first rather than being tactless straight away.


----------



## Suenneil

maxd said:


> I agree the number plate is a bit tacky but why not let them enjoy it? Seems it annoys you more than anyone else. Americans I meet are pretty cool about money stuff but the Brits with their superiority complex deem it all too crass. Even if you have a lot of money you are supposed to go and buy a mondeo or something in socialist British society to not "show off" That is if Gordon Brown has not taxed it all to death.
> 
> 
> I hang out with the sports car guys on weekends and basically there are all sorts. I would say it is a split between older married businessmen, playboys and trust fund kids. The ones who talk about money you know immediately that their car is financed and we usually take the piss to bring them down to earth.
> 
> If you are in the meeting of course you wonder what other people do to get their car and want to compare penis size but you get to know them first rather than being tactless straight away.


Hi Max

I hope you and I havent got off on the wrong foot  Im usually a pretty easy going sort of person! and didnt mean to cause any offence to you personally .... maybe on a different topic we can have a friendlier exchange !!!


----------



## maxd

Suenneil said:


> Hi Max
> 
> I hope you and I havent got off on the wrong foot  Im usually a pretty easy going sort of person! and didnt mean to cause any offence to you personally .... maybe on a different topic we can have a friendlier exchange !!!


No offence taken Sue. I was just passing the time with a rant. If you fancy a ride sometime let me know


----------



## jojo

Sort of off topic, but then isnt that how we are on here. I was talking to my firend the estate agent this morning and he said that "the lady" from Paradise Lost, who ran that posh estate agents in Marbella closed up and went bust last month!!!!???

Jo xxx


----------



## Suenneil

maxd said:


> No offence taken Sue. I was just passing the time with a rant. If you fancy a ride sometime let me know


 Probably the best offer I have had all week !


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> OK you got me. I am really the guy form the rusty nail



No, you're the guy from Prague
Anhd you've done well.....not long ago you were in a flat in Prague, now a big house...and two very expensive cars. All from your hard work.
As well as your BMW.
You are to be admired.


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> No, you're the guy from Prague
> Anhd you've done well.....not long ago you were in a flat in Prague, now a big house...and two very expensive cars. All from your hard work.
> As well as your BMW.
> You are to be admired.


I keep on getting the email alerts and feel compelled to answer, even though I will probably never end up in Spain this coming winter 

"All from your hard work"

I sit at home in my pants posting on forums, not really hard work.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> I keep on getting the email alerts and feel compelled to answer, even though I will probably never end up in Spain this coming winter
> 
> "All from your hard work"
> 
> I sit at home in my pants posting on forums, not really hard work.


Who knows? You were planning to end up in Australia, not Spain, weren't you? Whatever, I'd leave Prague as soon as the first snow falls. And you know you're hooked on following me around Europe via forums - maybe France next??
I also admire how you are able to spend so much time posting and yet be able to make so much money. When we were in business, we were far too busy to spend time on personal stuff. Computers were for work. We had to keep an eye on staff, general day-to-day running and so on, even though we had managers who were supposed to be in charge of our branches. If I'd sat posting I'd have been bankrupt.
Anyway......back to struggling in Spain. I am not doing very well at the moment.
Why? I have just returned from a wasted trip to Gibraltar. Half-way there I realised I didn't have my passport, just driving licence. Couldn't be bothered to turn back as I thought that I'd get waved through as usual, no need to actually open wallet with passport.
Oh no, not today.
The Spanish side people were being mega-awkward - perusing documents, making people get out of cars etc so when I was unable to produce my passport I was told politely but firmly I could go no further. The Gib/Brit officer was equally polite but same answer:no pasaran.
What a pillock. I am really annoyed with myself. I have just had to ask my office to reschedule my flight to London tomorrow as I need to visit my bank in Gib before I go to the UK.
Just out of interest, where do all these mega-rich young bucks with their oh-so expensive cars meet up in Prague? I cannot think of a suitably glamorous location there for this jeunesse d'oree. Maybe they should all come to Marbella...
I'm coming to Prague at the beginning of September so I'd like to know.
We have a mutual aquaintance who occasionally feeds me snippets of Prague gossip but what I would really like to know but he can't tell me is what is happening with Martin Kinning - how is he? If you have any news, I'd be grateful if you could pass it on


----------



## SteveBarbosa

Well, I've spent all morning reading this thread. Very interesting and maybe it is a topic that keeps cropping up.

I too, am one of those leaving the UK very soon to start a new life in Spain. I've got no choice now because I resigned last week , but my reasons for coming to Spain are maybe a bit different to the expats that SteveH was referring to in his original post.

For me the following is my situation. My wife is Spanish and hails from Castilla La Mancha where here father currently lives. He lives in a large house in a small village which has 2 upper floors which are undeveloped ready for his children to take over. Me and my wife are now ready to take over those floors and develop them to run a business. We're not doing this in the hope to make a fortune - just enough to be able to bring our kids up sufficiently and have some spare to treat ourselves now and again. We've already had decent IT careers in full time employment where we spent as little as we could, but finding the right balance. You know how hard it is to work in UK without chilling out in some ways??? Not easy for us, but we were still disciplined. Our money comes from savings and the equity gained from the sale of our old house that will help us to remain relatively mortgage free for a while. It was such a heart rendering decision at the time to sell and go into rented, but we did have this 'dream' to head to spain in future.

Well, the future is upon us now and we are heading down there in August. We have a one year old baby who is already understanding two languages. Its now my turn to up the heat on myself and fully emerse myself into the spanish language. Yes, I speak enough to hold a conversation, but I don't have that natural fluency to be able to do business yet.

The time feels right, my instinct is telling me that its a good thing to do. My friends think we're crazy when all these brits are heading back to UK! I've been visiting spain for 15 years now and I know what real spain is like. Yes, I know its going to be a tough transition for me - the need to slow down a bit and adapt to a different way of life (one which I already enjoy btw!). However, there will be many things to keep us very busy over the next few years with the need to get this business up and running well.

Failing 'the dream' we can always run her dad's bar before coming back to UK with our tail between our legs :-(

Hell, its so stressful at the moment with all the things we need to do that we havent had time to get excited about it all. I havent even yet taken great pleasure in resigning to my bosses - how bad is that???!!! ;-)

I just hope its not all doom and gloom like it can appear on this forum.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> huh... listen to her and look at "mrypg9"s location on her profile!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Err....there is Marbella.....and Marbella. Just like there are new 'flash'cars....and old ones.
Marbella isn't all mansions and anyway we're not in Marbella itself, just a short drive away but it's the postal address.
And besides, we're renting. We own sod-all here. 
As I said, we're in this house 'til the money runs out. 
Then we'll downsize or move to a less expensive location.
As I said before, we're only here because my son's properties are here.
Which reminds me, time to do my char/washerwoman's job.
Speaking of fancy hairdressers, we used to go to a fabulous English cutter in Prague. He was VERY expensive but very good.
The alternatives were too awful to contemplate. Prague has some of the worst, tackiest hair do's I've ever seen. 
But I've found a good stylist here for half the price I paid in Prague.


----------



## Suenneil

SteveBarbosa said:


> Well, I've spent all morning reading this thread. Very interesting and maybe it is a topic that keeps cropping up.
> 
> I too, am one of those leaving the UK very soon to start a new life in Spain. I've got no choice now because I resigned last week , but my reasons for coming to Spain are maybe a bit different to the expats that SteveH was referring to in his original post.
> 
> For me the following is my situation. My wife is Spanish and hails from Castilla La Mancha where here father currently lives. He lives in a large house in a small village which has 2 upper floors which are undeveloped ready for his children to take over. Me and my wife are now ready to take over those floors and develop them to run a business. We're not doing this in the hope to make a fortune - just enough to be able to bring our kids up sufficiently and have some spare to treat ourselves now and again. We've already had decent IT careers in full time employment where we spent as little as we could, but finding the right balance. You know how hard it is to work in UK without chilling out in some ways??? Not easy for us, but we were still disciplined. Our money comes from savings and the equity gained from the sale of our old house that will help us to remain relatively mortgage free for a while. It was such a heart rendering decision at the time to sell and go into rented, but we did have this 'dream' to head to spain in future.
> 
> Well, the future is upon us now and we are heading down there in August. We have a one year old baby who is already understanding two languages. Its now my turn to up the heat on myself and fully emerse myself into the spanish language. Yes, I speak enough to hold a conversation, but I don't have that natural fluency to be able to do business yet.
> 
> The time feels right, my instinct is telling me that its a good thing to do. My friends think we're crazy when all these brits are heading back to UK! I've been visiting spain for 15 years now and I know what real spain is like. Yes, I know its going to be a tough transition for me - the need to slow down a bit and adapt to a different way of life (one which I already enjoy btw!). However, there will be many things to keep us very busy over the next few years with the need to get this business up and running well.
> 
> Failing 'the dream' we can always run her dad's bar before coming back to UK with our tail between our legs :-(
> 
> Hell, its so stressful at the moment with all the things we need to do that we havent had time to get excited about it all. I havent even yet taken great pleasure in resigning to my bosses - how bad is that???!!! ;-)
> 
> I just hope its not all doom and gloom like it can appear on this forum.


Hi Steve

I was sad when I read that you think its "all gloom and doom" on the forum ... I dont think it really is - well, maybe when we are giving our opinions or experiences of how it is in Spain at the moment for employment etc. Yes, there are a lot of people going back to the original Countries ... but many of us are staying!! still here, still enjoying life and no plans to go anywhere!
Your situation is a little different to most peoples in that you have Spanish ties, the language and family here that Im sure will be a great support network for you and your young family ... a lot of people dont have that luxury!

Dont let the doom and gloom comments get you down! instead look at some of the more flippant and funny posts we have all contributed to ! we smile a lot more than you may think !!

Best of luck with the move ... and keep in touch !


----------



## SteveBarbosa

Suenneil said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> I was sad when I read that you think its "all gloom and doom" on the forum ... I dont think it really is - well, maybe when we are giving our opinions or experiences of how it is in Spain at the moment for employment etc. Yes, there are a lot of people going back to the original Countries ... but many of us are staying!! still here, still enjoying life and no plans to go anywhere!
> Your situation is a little different to most peoples in that you have Spanish ties, the language and family here that Im sure will be a great support network for you and your young family ... a lot of people dont have that luxury!
> 
> Dont let the doom and gloom comments get you down! instead look at some of the more flippant and funny posts we have all contributed to ! we smile a lot more than you may think !!
> 
> Best of luck with the move ... and keep in touch !



Yeah I know I tend to read the negatives a bit more. I need to kick that habit out the window. I just sometimes wonder if I'm leaving the UK at too early an age. I still like it here and its no way a reason why I am moving away, but I want to acheive and reach for my goals and it just happens that now is the time. As they say - reach for the stars, land on the moon!

I still enjoy reading this forum and hopefully when I get out to spain I'll be posting more often.

And if you're as happy and smiley as your avatar indicates then good for you!


----------



## Suenneil

SteveBarbosa said:


> Yeah I know I tend to read the negatives a bit more. I need to kick that habit out the window. I just sometimes wonder if I'm leaving the UK at too early an age. I still like it here and its no way a reason why I am moving away, but I want to acheive and reach for my goals and it just happens that now is the time. As they say - reach for the stars, land on the moon!
> 
> I still enjoy reading this forum and hopefully when I get out to spain I'll be posting more often.
> 
> And if you're as happy and smiley as your avatar indicates then good for you!


Well thank you! Smiling is something I do a lot of - but its given me wrinkles far too early in life ! lol

Regarding "leaving the UK at too early an age" .. I think thats to your advantage. We originally thought we would move to Spain when we retired (which is 15 or so years from now if you stick to the official retirement age of 65) ... but then thought well if we do it now - in our 40´s - and it goes wrong or we dont like it - we are still young enough to up sticks and go back to the UK to start all over again! You are probably a lot younger than me - so again still lots of opportunities and time to re think things if it doesnt work out the way you want it to .... but I agree STICK TO BEING POSITIVE! - that way you know you have tried your best and in the right frame of mind - irrespective of the final outcome! 

Bye for now


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> Well thank you! Smiling is something I do a lot of - but its given me wrinkles far too early in life ! lol
> 
> Regarding "leaving the UK at too early an age" .. I think thats to your advantage. We originally thought we would move to Spain when we retired (which is 15 or so years from now if you stick to the official retirement age of 65) ... but then thought well if we do it now - in our 40´s - and it goes wrong or we dont like it - we are still young enough to up sticks and go back to the UK to start all over again! You are probably a lot younger than me - so again still lots of opportunities and time to re think things if it doesnt work out the way you want it to .... but I agree STICK TO BEING POSITIVE! - that way you know you have tried your best and in the right frame of mind - irrespective of the final outcome!
> 
> Bye for now


Way to go, Steve Don't wait too long.
I've just wasted two hours due to my stupidity (see previous post) but I'm now lying in the sun laughing it off.
As the advert says,'Smile, you're in Spain' and that's very true.


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Who knows? You were planning to end up in Australia, not Spain, weren't you? Whatever, I'd leave Prague as soon as the first snow falls. And you know you're hooked on following me around Europe via forums - maybe France next??
> I also admire how you are able to spend so much time posting and yet be able to make so much money. When we were in business, we were far too busy to spend time on personal stuff. Computers were for work. We had to keep an eye on staff, general day-to-day running and so on, even though we had managers who were supposed to be in charge of our branches. If I'd sat posting I'd have been bankrupt.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Was planning to be in Spain but after our March trip we found it too cold. So maybe OZ is on the cards as I have a passport.
> 
> As for work, we have all systems run by computers and all managers are in my messenger list if we need to speak. We see all sales in real time as well. Our company has 11 offices in different countries so it does not really make sense going to see people unless the numbers start to be bad.
> <snip>
> 
> 
> Let me know when you join a French forum


----------



## mrypg9

mrypg9 said:


> Way to go, Steve Don't wait too long.
> I've just wasted two hours due to my stupidity (see previous post) but I'm now lying in the sun laughing it off.
> As the advert says,'Smile, you're in Spain' and that's very true.


Doh......the sun has got to my head
This was for Steve, not you,Sue...


----------



## mrypg9

Thanks for the offer but most of my travel is business -or rather has been as tomorrow is hopefully my last trip. So my hotels are all booked and paid for.
When I travel privately I stay with friends or in 'good' hotels. I'm at the age where I need a bit of luxury
Do you have any news of Martin K? Is he recovering? As I said, my friend Ota (who knows you) knows nothing about poor Martin.


----------



## Suenneil

maxd said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows? You were planning to end up in Australia, not Spain, weren't you? Whatever, I'd leave Prague as soon as the first snow falls. And you know you're hooked on following me around Europe via forums - maybe France next??
> I also admire how you are able to spend so much time posting and yet be able to make so much money. When we were in business, we were far too busy to spend time on personal stuff. Computers were for work. We had to keep an eye on staff, general day-to-day running and so on, even though we had managers who were supposed to be in charge of our branches. If I'd sat posting I'd have been bankrupt.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Was planning to be in Spain but after our March trip we found it too cold. So maybe OZ is on the cards as I have a passport.
> 
> As for work, we have all systems run by computers and all managers are in my messenger list if we need to speak. We see all sales in real time as well. Our company has 11 offices in different countries so it does not really make sense going to see people unless the numbers start to be bad.
> 
> If you fancy a discount stay in an apartment around europe Mary just let me know as you seem to travel a lot. Vacation Rental Apartments in Barcelona, Berlin, Madrid, Warsaw, Krakow, Paris . We have some really nice places in Madrid and Barcelona, that gets me over to Spain a few times a year usually for some tapa and seafood.
> 
> 
> Let me know when you join a French forum
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Max
> I may have to travel to Madrid on business this month so if you have any info on your apartments there that would be useful! maybe its cheaper than me using the hotels ????
Click to expand...


----------



## Tallulah

SteveBarbosa said:


> Well, I've spent all morning reading this thread. Very interesting and maybe it is a topic that keeps cropping up.
> 
> I too, am one of those leaving the UK very soon to start a new life in Spain. I've got no choice now because I resigned last week , but my reasons for coming to Spain are maybe a bit different to the expats that SteveH was referring to in his original post.
> 
> For me the following is my situation. My wife is Spanish and hails from Castilla La Mancha where here father currently lives. He lives in a large house in a small village which has 2 upper floors which are undeveloped ready for his children to take over. Me and my wife are now ready to take over those floors and develop them to run a business. We're not doing this in the hope to make a fortune - just enough to be able to bring our kids up sufficiently and have some spare to treat ourselves now and again. We've already had decent IT careers in full time employment where we spent as little as we could, but finding the right balance. You know how hard it is to work in UK without chilling out in some ways??? Not easy for us, but we were still disciplined. Our money comes from savings and the equity gained from the sale of our old house that will help us to remain relatively mortgage free for a while. It was such a heart rendering decision at the time to sell and go into rented, but we did have this 'dream' to head to spain in future.
> 
> Well, the future is upon us now and we are heading down there in August. We have a one year old baby who is already understanding two languages. Its now my turn to up the heat on myself and fully emerse myself into the spanish language. Yes, I speak enough to hold a conversation, but I don't have that natural fluency to be able to do business yet.
> 
> The time feels right, my instinct is telling me that its a good thing to do. My friends think we're crazy when all these brits are heading back to UK! I've been visiting spain for 15 years now and I know what real spain is like. Yes, I know its going to be a tough transition for me - the need to slow down a bit and adapt to a different way of life (one which I already enjoy btw!). However, there will be many things to keep us very busy over the next few years with the need to get this business up and running well.
> 
> Failing 'the dream' we can always run her dad's bar before coming back to UK with our tail between our legs :-(
> 
> Hell, its so stressful at the moment with all the things we need to do that we havent had time to get excited about it all. I havent even yet taken great pleasure in resigning to my bosses - how bad is that???!!! ;-)
> 
> I just hope its not all doom and gloom like it can appear on this forum.


Hi Steve,

Well, you seem to be in a similar situation to us. My OH is Spanish and hails from this area - we've also been coming out here to Galicia (since I've been with him) for approximately 15 years on holiday, and like you have the Spanish side of the family as our support network. We built our house, but spent about 2.5 years living with the mother-in-law whilst we dealt with the build, red tape, settling kids into schools, etc. It's wonderful that you've got that support network to go to - although don't underestimate how stressful it can be at times!! Frantic, isn't it, the last couple of months before you leave the UK, getting all your bits and bobs in order, what do you take with you, what to dump. It's doom and gloom all over the place (not just this forum and not just Spain!!), but your's is a slightly different scenario, so don't let that stop you from enjoying the start of your adventure. It's rare that in those last few months amidst the disorder that you can take 5 and chill out a bit and enjoy the fact that you've decided to make that move. But I would like to congratulate you - I think you will find that your's will be a more successful move because of the income scenario and the family support network. We love it here, the kids are flourishing and although we still have a few ups and downs, we absolutely do NOT regret coming over here. Best decision we ever made. Why not crack open a bottle of something and start celebrating your resignation now?!?! :clap2:

Best of luck to you all,
Tallulah.x


----------



## Zimtony

Well said Talulah! 
Go for it Steve, every journey starts with a first step! Good luck and enjoy!


----------



## maxd

Suenneil said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Max
> I may have to travel to Madrid on business this month so if you have any info on your apartments there that would be useful! maybe its cheaper than me using the hotels ????
> 
> 
> 
> They snipped the link but we have live availabilty on the site. Just google apatmentsapart madrid.
> 
> @ Mary, do you mean Martin Kitson?
Click to expand...


----------



## SteveBarbosa

Tallulah said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Well, you seem to be in a similar situation to us. My OH is Spanish and hails from this area - we've also been coming out here to Galicia (since I've been with him) for approximately 15 years on holiday, and like you have the Spanish side of the family as our support network. We built our house, but spent about 2.5 years living with the mother-in-law whilst we dealt with the build, red tape, settling kids into schools, etc. It's wonderful that you've got that support network to go to - although don't underestimate how stressful it can be at times!! Frantic, isn't it, the last couple of months before you leave the UK, getting all your bits and bobs in order, what do you take with you, what to dump. It's doom and gloom all over the place (not just this forum and not just Spain!!), but your's is a slightly different scenario, so don't let that stop you from enjoying the start of your adventure. It's rare that in those last few months amidst the disorder that you can take 5 and chill out a bit and enjoy the fact that you've decided to make that move. But I would like to congratulate you - I think you will find that your's will be a more successful move because of the income scenario and the family support network. We love it here, the kids are flourishing and although we still have a few ups and downs, we absolutely do NOT regret coming over here. Best decision we ever made. Why not crack open a bottle of something and start celebrating your resignation now?!?! :clap2:
> 
> Best of luck to you all,
> Tallulah.x


Well said Talulah!
Go for it Steve, every journey starts with a first step! Good luck and enjoy! 

Thanks guys. We are certainly starting to feel the pressure mount now as we need to get carpet cleaners in after the removals, bills paid, addresses forwarded etc. I guess you've all been there before.

Yes the family support network is damn useful and at least we have that cushion to help us. Still, its going to be a nightmare at times as her dad and his libido need controlling before he lands everyone in trouble!!!


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> @ Mary, do you mean Martin Kitson?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I meant Martin Kinning aka Skinny. I didn't know him well, met him for a business lunch last year and was sorry to hear he had been violently assaulted in Prague. My sources in Prague tell me he is in a neurological unit in Birmingham, making a slow recovery. I don't know a Martin Kitson.
> I meant to reply earlier to your comments about 'socialist' UK tax rates. As an international businessman I thought you would be aware that Japan, USA, France, Germany, Canada, Australia and other rich countries have higher corporate and personal tax rates than Great Britain (OECD figures). Whilst some former Soviet-bloc states may have lower tax rates, their tax regimes cannot be favourably compared to those of rich countries for many reasons, one being currency exchange values. Five million Czech crowns wouldn't buy a garden shed in a 'good' part of London....or Marbella.
> Anyone considering purchasing property in Spain should similarly be aware of the harsh Spanish inheritance tax rules, which allow a high percentage of tax to be levied on all properties owned, even those in other countries. That was one of many reasons why we decided not to buy here.
> Sorry to bring this up now but I've just returned from a week in the fleshpots of Bloomsbury
Click to expand...


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone considering purchasing property in Spain should similarly be aware of the harsh Spanish inheritance tax rules, which allow a high percentage of tax to be levied on all properties owned, even those in other countries. That was one of many reasons why we decided not to buy here.
> 
> 
> 
> Although I know what you are getting at, thats not strictly 100% true actually. My wife for instance will have next to no IHT liability if I peg it before her, and vice versa  Making a Spanish and UK will reflecting each other goes a long way to helping also
Click to expand...


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone considering purchasing property in Spain should similarly be aware of the harsh Spanish inheritance tax rules, which allow a high percentage of tax to be levied on all properties owned, even those in other countries. That was one of many reasons why we decided not to buy here.
> Sorry to bring this up now but I've just returned from a week in the fleshpots of Bloomsbury
> 
> 
> 
> That is a no brainer for me. Buy the property via an offshore company with a nominee director that has limited powers so the State cannot find out who the real owner is. It is possible to avoid things like inheritence/capital gains tax as long as you buy smart up front.
> 
> On a different note I did not know Skinny, only in cyberspace. Sad about what happened, really sad.
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although I know what you are getting at, thats not strictly 100% true actually. My wife for instance will have next to no IHT liability if I peg it before her, and vice versa  Making a Spanish and UK will reflecting each other goes a long way to helping also
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's one of those issues that aren't clearly defined, as I think you're hinting at.
> A Spanish tax adviser informed me that strictly speaking, it is the case that all property, in and outside of Spain, can be included for taxation purposes. Can, not will. And that's the problem.
> As I've come to realise, in Spain there are rules.....and people applying the rules.
> But better to be safe than sorry.
Click to expand...


----------



## Zimtony

maxd said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a different note I did not know Skinny, only in cyberspace. Sad about what happened, really sad.
> 
> 
> 
> What were the circumstances around what happened to Skinny?
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a no brainer for me. Buy the property via an offshore company with a nominee director that has limited powers so the State cannot find out who the real owner is. It is possible to avoid things like inheritence/capital gains tax as long as you buy smart up front.
> 
> On a different note I did not know Skinny, only in cyberspace. Sad about what happened, really sad.
> 
> 
> 
> But are you aware of the rules and regulations governing offshore companies? We are living in a civilised country not a tin pot inefficient corrupt Eastern European country or a South American banana republic. My tax affaiors are UK based.
> Your words sound good to those who are unaware of the practical applications of what you suggest.
> Plus we are talking about a house here, not a business the size ICI or IBM so even if your solution were practical it would be like taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
> Referring to my point about your mistake on corporate taxation, which you didn't mention, I would point out that very many people, perhaps millions, manage to operate businesses and pay their taxes and make real profits in the UK and elsewhere. They did not need to get involved in scams and fiddles, however 'legitimate'.To me tas I'm sure to you too there is something fly-boy and rather distasteful about going to such lengths to avoid legitimate taxes. Businesses which have real tangible assets rely on modern, efficient infrastructure which can only be paid for by tax revenue.
> We paid our taxes, made a good and honest profit and chose to invest rather than splash out on conspicuous consumption. In view of the current economic climate that may not seem so sensible.
> But then, as I believe JoJo said much earlier, there are many people with solid money behind them who choose not to flaunt it.
> Which takes me back to Sue's point, really.
> But it's all a matter of taste and as the Spanish say, sobra las gustas no hay disputos.
> Or something like that.
Click to expand...


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> But are you aware of the rules and regulations governing offshore companies? We are living in a civilised country not a tin pot inefficient corrupt Eastern European country or a South American banana republic. My tax affaiors are UK based.
> Your words sound good to those who are unaware of the practical applications of what you suggest.
> Plus we are talking about a house here, not a business the size ICI or IBM so even if your solution were practical it would be like taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut.
> Referring to my point about your mistake on corporate taxation, which you didn't mention, I would point out that very many people, perhaps millions, manage to operate businesses and pay their taxes and make real profits in the UK and elsewhere. They did not need to get involved in scams and fiddles, however 'legitimate'.To me tas I'm sure to you too there is something fly-boy and rather distasteful about going to such lengths to avoid legitimate taxes. Businesses which have real tangible assets rely on modern, efficient infrastructure which can only be paid for by tax revenue.
> We paid our taxes, made a good and honest profit and chose to invest rather than splash out on conspicuous consumption. In view of the current economic climate that may not seem so sensible.
> But then, as I believe JoJo said much earlier, there are many people with solid money behind them who choose not to flaunt it.
> Which takes me back to Sue's point, really.
> But it's all a matter of taste and as the Spanish say, sobra las gustas no hay disputos.
> Or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a reaction to you saying about inheritence tax. Whether tax is fair or not is down to the individual to decide. IMO the state is often not fair for the common man who is taxed at source or for the owners of immovable objects that can be taxed just because they are there. I am also not sure that 50% death duty is a fair one. You can also get out of that one by desposing of your assets early enough or just moving abroad.
> 
> As for corporate tax, poland 19%, bulgaria 10% etc. SO there are far better places to incorporate than the UK.
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was a reaction to you saying about inheritence tax. Whether tax is fair or not is down to the individual to decide. IMO the state is often not fair for the common man who is taxed at source or for the owners of immovable objects that can be taxed just because they are there. I am also not sure that 50% death duty is a fair one. You can also get out of that one by desposing of your assets early enough or just moving abroad.
> 
> As for corporate tax, poland 19%, bulgaria 10% etc. SO there are far better places to incorporate than the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are happy doing business in Bulgaria or Poland, fair enough. But bear in mind what I said about comparative value. I would imagine that nearly every poster on this site would, if they moved to countries such as those, be an immediate multi-millionaire. The owner of the average CDS villa could swap it for a palace in most former Soviet-bloc states and have spare change to buy a sports car or two.
> We owned a lot of 'immoveable objects', as do many people in business: land, buildings, plant and equiment etc. We took advantage of tax breaks where legitimate and paid taxes when due. Of course we moaned and muttered, it's human nature.
> I'm intrigued by your comment about avoiding death duty (not 50%) by disposing of assets earlier. You must be aware that if, for example, I decided to dispose of my property and gift it to my son, he would be liable for tax on that gift? You don't avoid tax by moving abroad either. Whilst in the Czech Republic we carried on our business in the UK and paid our corporate taxes. We were also liable for tax on personal income from all sources: business, investments, rents from property etc. We are subject to Wealth Tax here in Spain. Most EU countries have sophisticated methods for dealing with tax avoidance.
> The plain fact is that yes, you can avoid a certain amount of tax by banking and registering in such countries as Belize, the Seychelles, Antigua, Bulgaria etc etc. This may well suit internet traders who have few (and often no) fixed assets and whose capital value is low and who are extremely mobile -a huge advantage commercially. But most UK SMEs don't go down that route for a variety of reasons. And I can't imagine Alan Sugar registering in Bulgaria....
> Opening an offshore account with a reputable bank is not easy either. I walked into KB and e-Banka in Prague with a few thousand crowns and a passport and was immediately issued an account, a debit and a credit card. It's quite different with an established 'big' UK or Western European bank. Proof of origin of income, statements going back months, certified copies of various documents had to be produced.
> But having been 'respectable' and cautious all my life, I prefer to operate in an environment where such procedures are the norm.
> As to whether a tax is 'fair' or not, it's an interesting question. One thing I feel is inevitable is that most countries will be obliged to increase corporate tax rates in the coming year.
> Whether we pay privately for health, education etc or not, we all use roads, street-lights, security etc etc.
> Speaking of education =children: I believe you have a young son. Will you bring him up to be bilingual? I have a friend whose teenage children have been here for six years, attended Spanish schools and are completely bilingual. I think that's fantastic.
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

Zimtony said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> What were the circumstances around what happened to Skinny?
> 
> 
> 
> He was brutally assaulted and left for dead outside a Prague club in the early hours of the morning sometime last year - September, I think it was. An anonymous call alerted the emergency services.
> He had extremely serious injuries and will most probably be affected for the rest of his life. He had a huge swelling to the brain which required complicated and dangerous surgery. For months he couldn't walk, talk, feed himself etc.
> A pleasant young man in his thirties whose only vice was fondness for a drink.
> I kinow this happens all over the place, not just in Prague - look at Competa - but this was for the sake of the few hundred crowns he had left in his wallet.
Click to expand...


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> maxd said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are happy doing business in Bulgaria or Poland, fair enough. But bear in mind what I said about comparative value. I would imagine that nearly every poster on this site would, if they moved to countries such as those, be an immediate multi-millionaire. The owner of the average CDS villa could swap it for a palace in most former Soviet-bloc states and have spare change to buy a sports car or two.
> We owned a lot of 'immoveable objects', as do many people in business: land, buildings, plant and equiment etc. We took advantage of tax breaks where legitimate and paid taxes when due. Of course we moaned and muttered, it's human nature.
> I'm intrigued by your comment about avoiding death duty (not 50%) by disposing of assets earlier. You must be aware that if, for example, I decided to dispose of my property and gift it to my son, he would be liable for tax on that gift? You don't avoid tax by moving abroad either. Whilst in the Czech Republic we carried on our business in the UK and paid our corporate taxes. We were also liable for tax on personal income from all sources: business, investments, rents from property etc. We are subject to Wealth Tax here in Spain. Most EU countries have sophisticated methods for dealing with tax avoidance.
> The plain fact is that yes, you can avoid a certain amount of tax by banking and registering in such countries as Belize, the Seychelles, Antigua, Bulgaria etc etc. This may well suit internet traders who have few (and often no) fixed assets and whose capital value is low and who are extremely mobile -a huge advantage commercially. But most UK SMEs don't go down that route for a variety of reasons. And I can't imagine Alan Sugar registering in Bulgaria....
> Opening an offshore account with a reputable bank is not easy either. I walked into KB and e-Banka in Prague with a few thousand crowns and a passport and was immediately issued an account, a debit and a credit card. It's quite different with an established 'big' UK or Western European bank. Proof of origin of income, statements going back months, certified copies of various documents had to be produced.
> But having been 'respectable' and cautious all my life, I prefer to operate in an environment where such procedures are the norm.
> As to whether a tax is 'fair' or not, it's an interesting question. One thing I feel is inevitable is that most countries will be obliged to increase corporate tax rates in the coming year.
> Whether we pay privately for health, education etc or not, we all use roads, street-lights, security etc etc.
> Speaking of education =children: I believe you have a young son. Will you bring him up to be bilingual? I have a friend whose teenage children have been here for six years, attended Spanish schools and are completely bilingual. I think that's fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> My word! you guys are going in deep here! but I have to admit Im finding your posts very interesting and informative ..... and showing high levels of thought and intelligence! not something we are that well known for on here (no offence to anyone - Ive started threads before on Marks & Spencers pants for gods sake!!!)
> 
> Im not as informed as you guys on tax issues for example - but would just like to add that at the end of the day we all live and operate within our own sense of whats right and wrong .....whats legal and what isnt .... I personally have always tried to stay on the side of right and legal ... its what I know, what I feel comfortable with and what I believe to be fair ..... this is not to say that I agree or disagree with level or types of taxes etc imposed on different people in different Countries - just that if I live and work in Spain I adhere to the relevant tax laws ..... when I was in the UK I did the same .... and wherever I may end up in the future it is something I will choose to accept as it will maybe form part of my decision to live there or not.
> 
> Phew I need coffee now ..... Im not usually this serious! :juggle::juggle::juggle:
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My word! you guys are going in deep here! but I have to admit Im finding your posts very interesting and informative ..... and showing high levels of thought and intelligence! not something we are that well known for on here (no offence to anyone - Ive started threads before on Marks & Spencers pants for gods sake!!!)
> 
> Im not as informed as you guys on tax issues for example - but would just like to add that at the end of the day we all live and operate within our own sense of whats right and wrong .....whats legal and what isnt .... I personally have always tried to stay on the side of right and legal ... its what I know, what I feel comfortable with and what I believe to be fair ..... this is not to say that I agree or disagree with level or types of taxes etc imposed on different people in different Countries - just that if I live and work in Spain I adhere to the relevant tax laws ..... when I was in the UK I did the same .... and wherever I may end up in the future it is something I will choose to accept as it will maybe form part of my decision to live there or not.
> 
> Phew I need coffee now ..... Im not usually this serious! :juggle::juggle::juggle:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah Sue....it comes from living in Prague...Deep thoughts from gloomy Central European intellectuals...Kafka, Freud etc etc
> I agree with you. I play by the rules. Making money isn't everything although being poor is unpleasant. As you say, it's how you feel that counts.
> And now I'm going back to the pool and my trashy novel
Click to expand...


----------



## mrypg9

mrypg9 said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, Sue, I much prefer posts on this forum to those of expats.cz. Much more 'grown-up'.
> You wouldn't believe the stupidity, crudity and adolescent sense of humour of some posters there. Admin eventually tried to clean it up but it didn't improve much.
> You can be whatever you want to be on a forum, I suppose. Complete reinvention.
> (I am really a young, stunningly sexy blonde billionaire just pretending to be a grumpy, cautious, miserly old f***)
Click to expand...


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, Sue, I much prefer posts on this forum to those of expats.cz. Much more 'grown-up'.
> You wouldn't believe the stupidity, crudity and adolescent sense of humour of some posters there. Admin eventually tried to clean it up but it didn't improve much.
> You can be whatever you want to be on a forum, I suppose. Complete reinvention.
> (I am really a young, stunningly sexy blonde billionaire just pretending to be a grumpy, cautious, miserly old f***)
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean! I pretend to sound windswept and interesting with a varied social life and high level of knowledge ... when really I just sit here all day eating biscuits (well the ones that dont fall into my coffee anyway!!) and dreaming of M&S pants!
> 
> lane:
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jojo

Suenneil said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My word! you guys are going in deep here! but I have to admit Im finding your posts very interesting and informative ..... and showing high levels of thought and intelligence! not something we are that well known for on here (no offence to anyone - Ive started threads before on Marks & Spencers pants for gods sake!!!)
> 
> Im not as informed as you guys on tax issues for example - but would just like to add that at the end of the day we all live and operate within our own sense of whats right and wrong .....whats legal and what isnt .... I personally have always tried to stay on the side of right and legal ... its what I know, what I feel comfortable with and what I believe to be fair ..... this is not to say that I agree or disagree with level or types of taxes etc imposed on different people in different Countries - just that if I live and work in Spain I adhere to the relevant tax laws ..... when I was in the UK I did the same .... and wherever I may end up in the future it is something I will choose to accept as it will maybe form part of my decision to live there or not.
> 
> Phew I need coffee now ..... Im not usually this serious! :juggle::juggle::juggle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with you Sue, its interesting and informative, but not for me. In fact I know one or two people who spend their lives juggling money, finances etc to avoid this tax or that, I think its their hobby more than a need for money, but they seem to have nothing else, no family, life, interests or many friends. But it takes all sorts
> 
> Jo xxx
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## Suenneil

jojo said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally agree with you Sue, its interesting and informative, but not for me. In fact I know one or two people who spend their lives juggling money, finances etc to avoid this tax or that, I think its their hobby more than a need for money, but they seem to have nothing else, no family, life, interests or many friends.
> 
> 
> 
> But it takes all sorts
> 
> Jo xxx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly! Id be bored stupid if everyone was the same as me, or agreed with everything I thought and did !! .... not that they would  but you know what I mean! its our differences that keep the conversations going or creating the debates ..... and helping each other out!
Click to expand...


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's one of those issues that aren't clearly defined, as I think you're hinting at.
> A Spanish tax adviser informed me that strictly speaking, it is the case that all property, in and outside of Spain, can be included for taxation purposes. Can, not will. And that's the problem.
> As I've come to realise, in Spain there are rules.....and people applying the rules.
> But better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is clealy defined here ....... IHT doesnt exist between spouses  Lady down the road, her husband died last year and no IHT to pay
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## Suenneil

Stravinsky said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is clealy defined here ....... IHT doesnt exist between spouses  Lady down the road, her husband died last year and no IHT to pay
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean here in Spain Strav ?? Because if so, IHT DOES exist between husband and wife here in Spain. There are things you can do in advance to reduce the liability etc ... but you cannot avoid it altogether,
> Sue
Click to expand...


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## Tallulah

Suenneil said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean here in Spain Strav ?? Because if so, IHT DOES exist between husband and wife here in Spain. There are things you can do in advance to reduce the liability etc ... but you cannot avoid it altogether,
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused on this one. In the case of my mother-in-law there were all sorts of issues when her husband died as there are remaining children - their son and daughter. The husband's half was inheritance to the wife and the two children. The son and daughter did a "power of attorney" for her, and therefore relinquished their ability to prevent sale of the property, etc should she wish to move. There were other issues as my OH was abroad at the time and his sister was within Spanish territory. It appears that he will have paid a shed load of tax within the ten-year period following their father's death, whilst his sister would have paid much less. I'm sure that like non-resident IHT, thing may have changed on Brussels demands, but at no stage did my mother-in-law have to pay any IHT.
> 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if things like selling within a certain period, value of the property and therefore profit etc etc, all come into play, but I'm fairly sure that in a normal property (not a millionaire's villa!! - there I'm not sure!!) if the remaining spouse stays living there, there is little or no IHT to be paid.
> 
> There is one FACT I can add to this - the element of my OH's inheritance was paid at 7% of the value of the property he inherited (some land on which we built our property). This was the bit inherited from his father. Oddly enough, the bit donated by his mother (it was taken as donation although pre-inheritance from her would have been roughly the same percentage) was again, around 7/8%.
> 
> It's worth noting in this post that Spain's recently had a slapped wrist from Brussels and IHT for residents and non-residents is now the same, as long as we're talking EU citizens. :juggle:
> 
> Also worth noting, if IHT is paid for within the six months of inheriting, as it should be, as opposed to selling the place and then paying it, one has an enormous advantage in that the evaluations for tax purposes (strongly advised for this to be done by a "perito" and not by you, as they know what they're doing and they "know Hacienda folk " who you don't!! ) can be submitted at, shall we say, values which do not reflect true market value, but are acceptable for taxation. This can be compared to "valor Catastral" which has little to do with reality. Obviously if you sell it, you then have the value you sold it for, then it's difficult to argue.
> 
> 
> Tally.xx
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## Suenneil

Tallulah said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused on this one. In the case of my mother-in-law there were all sorts of issues when her husband died as there are remaining children - their son and daughter. The husband's half was inheritance to the wife and the two children. The son and daughter did a "power of attorney" for her, and therefore relinquished their ability to prevent sale of the property, etc should she wish to move. There were other issues as my OH was abroad at the time and his sister was within Spanish territory. It appears that he will have paid a shed load of tax within the ten-year period following their father's death, whilst his sister would have paid much less. I'm sure that like non-resident IHT, thing may have changed on Brussels demands, but at no stage did my mother-in-law have to pay any IHT.
> 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if things like selling within a certain period, value of the property and therefore profit etc etc, all come into play, but I'm fairly sure that in a normal property (not a millionaire's villa!! - there I'm not sure!!) if the remaining spouse stays living there, there is little or no IHT to be paid.
> 
> There is one FACT I can add to this - the element of my OH's inheritance was paid at 7% of the value of the property he inherited (some land on which we built our property). This was the bit inherited from his father. Oddly enough, the bit donated by his mother (it was taken as donation although pre-inheritance from her would have been roughly the same percentage) was again, around 7/8%.
> 
> It's worth noting in this post that Spain's recently had a slapped wrist from Brussels and IHT for residents and non-residents is now the same, as long as we're talking EU citizens. :juggle:
> 
> Also worth noting, if IHT is paid for within the six months of inheriting, as it should be, as opposed to selling the place and then paying it, one has an enormous advantage in that the evaluations for tax purposes (strongly advised for this to be done by a "perito" and not by you, as they know what they're doing and they "know Hacienda folk " who you don't!! ) can be submitted at, shall we say, values which do not reflect true market value, but are acceptable for taxation. This can be compared to "valor Catastral" which has little to do with reality. Obviously if you sell it, you then have the value you sold it for, then it's difficult to argue.
> 
> 
> Tally.xx
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tally
> The only infirmation I have no this came from one of our Spanish Lawyers this morning when I asked him the question .... and he was adamant that IHT is payable by the spouse - although it can be much reduced provided you have put certain things in place prior to the death .... sorry I dont have any detail as such at the moment if I manage to get something I will let you know.
> 
> by the way just got back and my coffee was (as always) great ... but Im sure the bloody butter was off and now I dont feel so well !!
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## Tallulah

Suenneil said:


> Tallulah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tally
> The only infirmation I have no this came from one of our Spanish Lawyers this morning when I asked him the question .... and he was adamant that IHT is payable by the spouse - although it can be much reduced provided you have put certain things in place prior to the death .... sorry I dont have any detail as such at the moment if I manage to get something I will let you know.
> 
> by the way just got back and my coffee was (as always) great ... but Im sure the bloody butter was off and now I dont feel so well !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sue - hope you're feeling a little better now - a nice cup of manzanilla should do the trick.
> 
> Thanks for that - it does seem rather cheeky, this free legal advice LOL!!!
> 
> Well, spoke with the mother-in-law just now and it appears that she did pay IHT - albeit a negligible amount due to the will stipulations and what sounds to me like a deferrance of payment by the children for their inheritance, as she was left lifelong (usufruto??) enjoyment of the property and her bit of the gains was minimal as other assets were not that large. So yes, the question of does one pay is now clear - they do!! But, the will being in place and its contents appear to be key to how much is paid by whom and when....warrants further investigation.
> 
> She did give us one example of a close friend of her's (her hairdresser actually!!) whose dad died intestate and as such she became, as the only child, 25% inheritor of the property, the other 25% of her dad's part went to her mum as co-inheritor and therefore liable for IHT within 6 months of his death for that value. They had only just finished a major refurb of the property inside and out - to avoid the same headache later, her mum allowed her to pre-inherit her part (I suspect to avoid paying the IHT of her 25%). To cut a long story short, she inherited 25% and pre-inherited 75%. I think the pre-inheritance of 75% saved her a bundle because if her mother was to die intestate as well - she would have ended up with 100% within 6 months and as I said from my OH's inheritance, I believe the rates on pre-inheritance/donations appear to be a lot lower than the intestate inheritance. I get the impression that worse case scenario in Spain is where the children already have their own home and inherit their parents' home - as their total assets would then be fairly high with two properties, IHT there would be significant and under intestate circumstances, you then have 6 months to find and pay. In these current market conditions, where even if you wanted to sell your parents' home to find the money to pay for the IHT, it probably wouldn't go in 6 months. One can see why some people appear to be desperate to sell - could be they're caught in one of these traps (as well as the more obvious reasons!!).
> 
> It just goes to show you though, how vital it is to pre-plan and make that will in Spain!! Even though it's unpleasant to talk about it with your family - better now and save them further pain and headaches in the future.
> 
> Tally.xx
Click to expand...


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## Suenneil

Tallulah said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Sue - hope you're feeling a little better now - a nice cup of manzanilla should do the trick.
> 
> Thanks for that - it does seem rather cheeky, this free legal advice LOL!!!
> 
> Well, spoke with the mother-in-law just now and it appears that she did pay IHT - albeit a negligible amount due to the will stipulations and what sounds to me like a deferrance of payment by the children for their inheritance, as she was left lifelong (usufruto??) enjoyment of the property and her bit of the gains was minimal as other assets were not that large. So yes, the question of does one pay is now clear - they do!! But, the will being in place and its contents appear to be key to how much is paid by whom and when....warrants further investigation.
> 
> She did give us one example of a close friend of her's (her hairdresser actually!!) whose dad died intestate and as such she became, as the only child, 25% inheritor of the property, the other 25% of her dad's part went to her mum as co-inheritor and therefore liable for IHT within 6 months of his death for that value. They had only just finished a major refurb of the property inside and out - to avoid the same headache later, her mum allowed her to pre-inherit her part (I suspect to avoid paying the IHT of her 25%). To cut a long story short, she inherited 25% and pre-inherited 75%. I think the pre-inheritance of 75% saved her a bundle because if her mother was to die intestate as well - she would have ended up with 100% within 6 months and as I said from my OH's inheritance, I believe the rates on pre-inheritance/donations appear to be a lot lower than the intestate inheritance. I get the impression that worse case scenario in Spain is where the children already have their own home and inherit their parents' home - as their total assets would then be fairly high with two properties, IHT there would be significant and under intestate circumstances, you then have 6 months to find and pay. In these current market conditions, where even if you wanted to sell your parents' home to find the money to pay for the IHT, it probably wouldn't go in 6 months. One can see why some people appear to be desperate to sell - could be they're caught in one of these traps (as well as the more obvious reasons!!).
> 
> It just goes to show you though, how vital it is to pre-plan and make that will in Spain!! Even though it's unpleasant to talk about it with your family - better now and save them further pain and headaches in the future.
> 
> Tally.xx
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Tally ... Im certainly not touting for business here! but our Spanish National office has been undertaking a big push on Spanish wills recently - of course it generates business ... but the main reason they began a more focused campaign was down to three incidents at the start of this year - 3 clients who had lost spouses and "assumed" quite a lot! assumed they wouldnt be liable for IHT and also that the house would automatically come into their possesion 100% ... which wasnt the case.
> This apparently happens more often with expat clients .... in the UK it is common for example that the house automatically becomes the wifes if the hubby dies first and vise versa - its not automatic here! Also a lot of mortgages in the UK automatically include insurance so that if one spouse dies the other inherits the property with the mortgage being paid off .... (the lenders add in a cost/fee for this insurance when you take out the mortgage and most insist on it from the start) ... not so here in Spain - so in addition to IHT tax issues, some people are also left bereaved ... with an outstanding mortgage - and no income to pay it off, and at a certain age, very little chance of ever doing so .. and therefore running the risk of having it repossesed!
> 
> Sounds like the people you mention already had some provision in place, a Spanish will and all the necessary elements sorted that would reduce the liability of IHT.
> 
> As you say for a bit of time and money its better to sort all this out now rather than leave it until its too late ... and a big mess for people you love and care about to sort out .... if they can sort it out before its too late!
> 
> A sobering thought!
> 
> By the way .... feeling much better thanks - just eaten a bunch of juicy seedless grapes and a handful of fresh cherries! lovely ...... and able to keep typing at the same time!
> 
> Sue xxx
Click to expand...


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## Stravinsky

Suenneil said:


> Stravinsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean here in Spain Strav ?? Because if so, IHT DOES exist between husband and wife here in Spain. There are things you can do in advance to reduce the liability etc ... but you cannot avoid it altogether,
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can Sue
> If you live in the Valencia region
> 
> I wouldnt have posted on here if it wasnt the case
> 
> The reduction I believe is about 99% and when the small allowance iis taken into consideration ... as I told you, a ladies husband down the road died and she paid no IHT after it was all calculated. The house was in joint names.
Click to expand...


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## Stravinsky

Stravinsky said:


> Suenneil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can Sue
> If you live in the Valencia region
> 
> I wouldnt have posted on here if it wasnt the case
> 
> The reduction I believe is about 99% and when the small allowance iis taken into consideration ... as I told you, a ladies husband down the road died and she paid no IHT after it was all calculated. The house was in joint names.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In fact in general a spouse is always liable for IHT on an inheritance from the deceased spouse. Apart from a basic exemption of about €16k, tax is due on the balance. However, if the house has been the main residence of the surviving spouse then an exemption of 95% will apply so long as the house is not sold for 10 years. This also applies to children who are left a share in the house.
> 
> There is also a limit of €122k on this exemption, so if the value of the inheritance was over this amount, IHT would be paid on the balance even if the house was not sold.
> 
> These are the basic rules which apply to the whole of Spain, however many regions have made additional allowances and exemptions available. These rules are very complex and vary from region to region so it is very important to understand them or seek professional advice.
> 
> For example, in Andalucia, there is a personal exemption of €125k so long as the total value of the estate is less than €500k so this means that a spouse inheriting a half share of a property valued at less than €250 would be free of tax with no requirement to keep the property.
Click to expand...


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## Dago

Well. I'll try to introduce myself. I am a Spaniard, who was brought up in Africa and, to some extent, feels himself as an expat wherever he goes.

I am trying to learn English at the moment, so excuse me if I mistreat your useful language.

I have read the firsts posts on this thread. I am trying to annihilate some old prejudices that I had concerning the English. A long time ago, I had a lot of stereotypes concerning the French. I learnt their language and I eventually understood that people are the same wherever you go. I spent several summers in Germany, and I found out that all I believed about Germans was a bunch of lies. (I really love Germany!Don't you?).

The only English that I had met where inhabitants of Expatshire, as I spent summers in Fuengirola. I didn't like them. Noisy (Even more than Spaniards!! It can't be true!), drunkards, rude (Well, usually not as much as Spaniards: We will chat later about the rudeness of my own people)... Then I met some English who were nice people. So I thought: "Some English are people, we could even say that they're human beings". (That's a joke, unfortunately, I don't know if it sounds offensive in English).

In the CDS I have met lots of people that don't speak a word of Spanish. That's a disgrace, whereas I have met lots of Germans and Sweden that usually do. (Bad or well, but that's another point). While I was working, and old lady turned up, in the comprehensive school (Instituto) in wich I was employed and asked me to help her. I talked to her in English for about five minutes. Then I went on to ask her for how long had she being living in Spain. She told me: "For seventeen years". From then on, I refused to keep on speaking English. I don't mind helping a tourist that cannot understand Spanish. I refuse to talk in English, in my own country, to somebody who has been living here for more than two years without trying to learn the language of the country where their are living in and expect to spend the rest of their lives. It's terribly offensive and shows a massive lack of respect and a feeling of contempt.

Needless to say that the image that the average British tourist gives in the CDS or Majorca, harms the image of all the British people. I expect there's no offense taken and that we could talk in the futur about topics that interest both of us. I hope I have made myself understood although my rotten English.

Delighted to meet you.

PD I wish to add that, your language being an easy one, at least as far as grammar is concerned (as for pronunciation that's another kettle of fish), I think that foreign languages are specially hard to you. (Spanish have a similar problem regarding foreign pronunciation).


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## Chica

:welcome: to the forum ****. An interesting post from a spaniard! It's always good to hear what people think of us (for me anyway)!?!? IMHO the Brits I know are basically good people. I suppose it depends in which circles you hang about in. I can't say we are the friendliest but normally one of the politetest. Maybe the youth not so much now I am ashamed to say but they are only the minor few that are trouble makers.
Hmmm..germans...I never had any thoughts about them 'til I moved here where they are in the majority and I hate to say that I find them arrogant and selfish. 

Yes, you are correct in that there are some brits that refuse to learn the language but I think that is more from fear than arrogance. Unlike the scandi coutries we were not bought up to learn other languages until the last 20 years or so making it really difficult to learn another language wouldn't you say?

I must say that your english is very good. I would think that you are a brit if you hadn't have said that you are from Spain!?!

I don't think that we are really worse than any other race. As you say...look to your own race too!!


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## Dago

Chica said:


> :
> (...)
> Hmmm..germans...I never had any thoughts about them 'til I moved here where they are in the majority and I hate to say that I find them arrogant and selfish.
> 
> (...)
> Really? Arrogant and selfish? Not in their own country... or at least not in the area where I used to travel to. (Baden-Würtemberg)
> 
> I must say that your english is very good. I would think that you are a brit if you hadn't have said that you are from Spain!?!
> 
> (An exemple of understatement: Well... it's not bad as you can make yourself understood as regarding global comprehension... keep on studying and you'll make it. LMAO)
> 
> (...)
> I don't think that we are really worse than any other race. As you say...look to your own race too!!


There's a lot to say about my own...race? I'd rather say people. I hate that word. In fact, we, Spaniards and Britsh, are not races, but rather mongrels (Britons, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Danish, Normans, Wisigoths, Moors, Iberians, and so on). Mongrels are just fine.


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## XTreme

¡Que pasa ****!

Great name.....like your sense of humour! 

I've got a problem that maybe you can advise me on.....all the young Espanolas call me viejo verde! What can I do about it?


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## Dago

XTreme said:


> ¡Que pasa ****!
> i
> Great name.....like your sense of humour!
> 
> I've got a problem that maybe you can advise me on.....all the young Espanolas call me viejo verde! What can I do about it?


Well, you could try and teach them what is the English for it. They all call me "viejo verde" too, but in may case is completely accurate, cause I am a Spaniard and in my forties.

PS: It sounded to me a little bit like an American GI in Panama´s mumbo-jumbo brothel, but I guess that's the kind of misundestanding that happens when you talk to people that belong to a differerent culture and you cannot see their gestures and non-verbal language.


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## Chica

Well ****, I never thought I was particularky patriotic having travelled the world in my younger days but I now must stick up for my "countrymen"!!!

I have friends here that run an International bar. The father is Spanish, the mother English, the 2 boys English but bought bought up in Alamania. All of them speak fluent english, german and spanish exept the father not so fluent in english.

After the bar being open for 6 months the one son to me that he much prefers to serve the brits as they are patient and undemanding, the spanish are loud and rude and the germans want to be served at the click of a finger. This has come from a chap that has a foot in all 3 countries so we can't be that bad can we .


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## Dago

Chica said:


> Well ****, I never thought I was particularky patriotic having travelled the world in my younger days but I now must stick up for my "countrymen"!!!
> 
> I have friends here that run an International bar. The father is Spanish, the mother English, the 2 boys English but bought bought up in Alamania. All of them speak fluent english, german and spanish exept the father not so fluent in english.
> 
> After the bar being open for 6 months the one son to me that he much prefers to serve the brits as they are patient and undemanding, the spanish are loud and rude and the germans want to be served at the click of a finger. This has come from a chap that has a foot in all 3 countries so we can't be that bad can we .


The Spanish are REALLY loud and rude. It can't be denied. And they toss all their filthy garbage on the pavements, the woods, the rivers, the mountains and the beaches. Half the Spaniards will try to swindle you if you're not cunning enough. They don't queue up. If you have an appointment with them, half the Spaniards will be late, whereas the rest of them just won't be any time. They are REALLY bad at languages and are not interested in understanding someone's else points of view. (Believe me. They think you pronounce badly the vowels cause they say everybody knows they sound A, E, I, O, U (read in Spanish). When you speak to them in any language other that Spanish, they reply "¡Háblame en cristiano!" (Talk Christian to me!) They will treat you really badly unless they want to sell you something. Don't worry about my patriotism. I LOATHE the education of my own people. But I have noticed that there are two very different kinds of British. I think social backgrounds create two different kinds of people. I am afraid there are two peoples living on the same soil. I find it difficult to express myself in English. I apologize for all the misundersdings that I could brought about.


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## Chica

They don't queue up. 

In my experience the spanish are very good at this and will often offer you to pass in the queue if you only have a couple of things. Yes, I like the spanish for this. Now, the germans...well lets not go into this. Please don't get me wrong. I have no problems with a particular nationality. Just sticking up for mine.


----------



## Dago

Chica said:


> They don't queue up.
> 
> In my experience the spanish are very good at this and will often offer you to pass in the queue if you only have a couple of things. Yes, I like the spanish for this. Now, the germans...well lets not go into this. Please don't get me wrong. I have no problems with a particular nationality. Just sticking up for mine.


Well, that's another point of view. When I queue up in the supermarket I must fight to keep my place in the line, but it's maybe cause I am a man, and old Spanish ladies are no used to see a man in the supermarket, so they don't respect him.

Let's forget the Germans. I do not know them all. Let's say, the inhabitants of Baden-Würtemberg, (Die Schäbisch) are the most wellcoming people that I have ever met. I was really happy among them. They were all civilization and politeness. I can't say the same about my own countryfelows, nor the average British than you can see on the seafront pubs in Fuengirola at 2:00 PM. But some English that I have known inland, were just lovely, the same kind of education that I saw in Ulm, Tübingen, Bodensee or Heidelberg.


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## Chica

**** said:


> Well, that's another point of view. When I queue up in the supermarket I must fight to keep my place in the line, but it's maybe cause I am a man, and old Spanish ladies are no used to see a man in the supermarket, so they don't respect him.


Aaaaagh, that's interesting. I have never observed that. You will have me watching the nature of queues now.

Anyway, good to have you on board with different a different slant to things.


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## Dago

Chica said:


> Aaaaagh, that's interesting. I have never observed that. You will have me watching the nature of queues now.
> 
> .



LOL:yo:

I adore the British sense of humour, anyway! This sentence shows me a lot of things about myself. Nice to meet you too.


----------

