# Unqualified Teachers in Mexico



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

My observation over the decades has been that, generally, public school teachers in Mexico have not been competent to teach the children which has contributed to a continuation of ignorance and poverty in the country. Amongst the Mexican families I've known, none will send their children to a public school (with the exception of some to state universities) if they have the finances to send them to a private school (and "private" schools aren't always what they may seem to be, either).

Following the election of President Peña Nieto, both chambers of the Mexican Congress adopted education reforms which included teacher competency requirements. Reports of first rounds of testing are being made public:



> This week Mexico's Dept. of Education (SEP) reported that almost 60% of applicants who recently sat for the competency exam were determined to be unqualified for a permanent teaching post. All had either graduated from teachers' colleges, or had at least 10 years experience as substitute or interim instructors. ... A total of 16,283 applicants took the first of three tests designed to determine their suitability for the classroom. Only 6,564 passed the initial threshold, while 9,719 failed.





> ... the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) ranks Mexico 34 out of 36 member nations for quality of education.


Click here to read the news report I'm quoting from, in its entirety.

The high level of corruption in Mexican society, the level of criminal activity and a situation where a majority of Mexicans live below the poverty line won't improve until the level of education amongst the population improves.


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## sfmaestra (Oct 8, 2013)

Wow--First, I might ask myself a few questions about the validity of a paper and pencil test/computer test being used to measure the competency of ANY teacher (in the world) before I spewed such a condemning statement about the "suitability" of tens of thousands of teachers in the country. 

Secondly, I might look a bit deeper into this extremely complex question. Teacher competency is a very, tiny part of this problem--a red herring, one I believe only distracts people from the deeply researched and clear reasons for low academic performance in ANY country: poverty, poverty, poverty and the move to privatize education (not for the benefit of students but for the benefit of corporations). 

I do not wish to argue here, but I would ask that people become MUCH more informed on these issues and not just jump on the highly-funded reform bandwagon of teacher bashing as though that will solve this problem. It won't. One need only to look north to observe the fiasco of the neoliberal, anti-pulbic education Bush II/Obama/Bill Gates educational reform policies--which México is adopting at an alarming rate. BTW, I'm not defending incompetence in ANY field, but a red herring is a red herring.


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## Parcos (May 13, 2014)

I think sfmaestra's implication that Mexico, or any other country, lacks the ability to administer a test of basic teacher competencies isn't supported by facts. It is clear to those of us who live and work here that many youth in Mexico graduate from public schools without basic skills necessary to get good jobs or to advance themselves and the communities in which they live. Sadly, my observations are similar to Longfords. Any Mexican with money to do so places there children in private schools, which are far from perfect often placing profits first and education second. One major difference between the private and public systems is that teachers who work in private schools are often far more motivated and passionate about education and their students don't lose months out of every year (as the do in Oaxaca,) to teachers strikes.


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## diablita (May 7, 2010)

Parcos said:


> I think sfmaestra's implication that Mexico, or any other country, lacks the ability to administer a test of basic teacher competencies isn't supported by facts. It is clear to those of us who live and work here that many youth in Mexico graduate from public schools without basic skills necessary to get good jobs or to advance themselves and the communities in which they live. Sadly, my observations are similar to Longfords. Any Mexican with money to do so places there children in private schools, which are far from perfect often placing profits first and education second. One major difference between the private and public systems is that teachers who work in private schools are often far more motivated and passionate about education and their students don't lose months out of every year (as the do in Oaxaca,) to teachers strikes.


I agree. Here in Guerrero teachers strikes are rampant as well. It seems that the teachers use any and all excuses to not teach and lost time is never made up. The teachers are always asking for "cooperacion" , which means money, for taking tests, books, parties etc. which should be free and every year they charge a registration fee which against the law but no one does anything.


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

diablita said:


> I agree. Here in Guerrero teachers strikes are rampant as well. It seems that the teachers use any and all excuses to not teach and lost time is never made up. The teachers are always asking for "cooperacion" , which means money, for taking tests, books, parties etc. which should be free and every year they charge a registration fee which against the law but no one does anything.


And any chance for teacher competency takes another blow if stories are true that, at least here in Guerrero, teaching positions are passed from one family member to another.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

HolyMole said:


> And any chance for teacher competency takes another blow if stories are true that, at least here in Guerrero, teaching positions are passed from one family member to another.


This inheriting (sometimes selling) of teaching positions happens in many parts of Mexico. It is one of the reasons why the CNTE (especially Section 22 in Oaxaca) has been protesting the educational reforms passed last year by the Peña Nieto government.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> This inheriting (sometimes selling) of teaching positions happens in many parts of Mexico.


PEMEX union does this as positions are put up for sale or passed to someone in the family.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> PEMEX union does this as positions are put up for sale or passed to someone in the family.


So this seems to be part of Mexican labor union culture. Just one more reason why I have very little respect for most "sindicatos" in Mexico. And I say this sadly having been a proud member (and officer) of a community college local of the AFT in the States for some years.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> So this seems to be part of Mexican labor union culture. Just one more reason why I have very little respect for most "sindicatos" in Mexico. And I say this sadly having been a proud member (and officer) of a community college local of the AFT in the States for some years.


They can legally sell or give the "Plaza" [tenure :give (someone) a permanent post, especially as a teacher or profesor] a teacher is awarded after many years at a teaching job to another teacher, not someone off the street. It is possibly in the SEP reforms to have this part of the system reviewed.

Because most teachers do not have a "Plaza" they are not selling teaching jobs in the literal sense that HolyMole mentioned.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

sfmaestra said:


> Wow--First, I might ask myself a few questions about the validity of a paper and pencil test/computer test being used to measure the competency of ANY teacher (in the world) before I spewed such a condemning statement about the "suitability" of tens of thousands of teachers in the country.
> 
> Secondly, I might look a bit deeper into this extremely complex question. Teacher competency is a very, tiny part of this problem--a red herring, one I believe only distracts people from the deeply researched and clear reasons for low academic performance in ANY country: poverty, poverty, poverty and the move to privatize education (not for the benefit of students but for the benefit of corporations).
> 
> I do not wish to argue here, but I would ask that people become MUCH more informed on these issues and not just jump on the highly-funded reform bandwagon of teacher bashing as though that will solve this problem. It won't. One need only to look north to observe the fiasco of the neoliberal, anti-pulbic education Bush II/Obama/Bill Gates educational reform policies--which México is adopting at an alarming rate. BTW, I'm not defending incompetence in ANY field, but a red herring is a red herring.


I agree with all of the comments about problems with the educational system in Mexico, but I think SFMaesta is right on the mark that the most important factor is poverty, poverty, poverty. The problems with teachers are tolerated because families are too poor with too many other problems, and may not realize that the real solution is more and better education. 

The movie "Real Women Have Curves" illustrates this well at the lower middle class level, but it applies to the poor even more so.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> They can legally sell or give the "Plaza" [tenure :give (someone) a permanent post, especially as a teacher or profesor] a teacher is awarded after many years at a teaching job to another teacher, not someone off the street. It is possibly in the SEP reforms to have this part of the system reviewed.


How relieved I am to learn that "plazas" can only be given or sold to someone who is supposedly a teacher, rather than to a busdriver or albañil. Too bad that when a plaza opens up it isn't given to the best-qualified candidate for the position.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I agree with all of the comments about problems with the educational system in Mexico, but I think SFMaesta is right on the mark that the most important factor is poverty, poverty, poverty. The problems with teachers are tolerated because families are too poor with too many other problems, and may not realize that the real solution is more and better education.


It seems to be a Catch-22 in some ways. Without better education being available to the children of the poor, how will they ever improve their lot in life, including being in a position to demand better schools and teachers for themselves and their children?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> How relieved I am to learn that "plazas" can only be given or sold to someone who is supposedly a teacher, rather than to a busdriver or albañil. Too bad that when a plaza opens up it isn't given to the best-qualified candidate for the position.


I know several retired public school teachers and there is certain qualifications they need to have to have a "Plaza". For example a diploma from a Mexican University in some field related to subjects taught or a 4/5 year teacher´s diploma etc.. Teachers who didn´t get a 4/5 year teachers diploma or another University degree are all over the country especially in agro states and small communities still. They are not eligible for a "Plaza."

Teacher unions decide who teaches, where and when and I think the SEP reforms will be changing this and put it in the hands of school administrators. Now and in the past they have no or little say in who teaches at their public schools.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> I know several retired public school teachers and there is certain qualifications they need to have to have a "Plaza". For example a diploma from a Mexican University in some field related to subjects taught or a 4/5 year teacher´s diploma etc.. Teachers who didn´t get a 4/5 year teachers diploma or another University degree are all over the country especially in agro states and small communities still. They are not eligible for a "Plaza."
> 
> Teacher unions decide who teaches, where and when and I think the SEP reforms will be changing this and put it in the hands of school administrators. Now and in the past they have no or little say in who teaches at their public schools.


Thanks for clarifying who is eligible to buy or inherit a teaching position in Mexico. I still think this system stinks, but that's just my opinion. This must mean that none of the "maestro rurales" who are graduates of two-year normal schools in the boondocks have plazas. Is that correct?

I hope this new policy helps to improve the quality of teaching in the public schools. I wonder why teacher unions have so much power in Mexico - it surely hasn't helped to improve educational standards and outcomes in the country.


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## sfmaestra (Oct 8, 2013)

Children's ability to "attend" to instruction is hampered by poverty in many ways--no matter HOW good the instruction or the teachers. If a child is hungry because they don't get three meals a day, is tired because of poor physical conditions in their homes, is in physical discomfort due to lack of good medical and dental care (needs glasses, cavities filled, amoebas gotten rid of, etc.), does not have books or a place to read/study in their homes, they have a tremendous deficit compared to children that do have these needs met. A "competent" teacher who has passed a test cannot address these deficits successfully. Governments and society need to address these deficits. 

Research has shown VERY clearly over decades and decades in all countries, that teachers are MUCH less important to the education of a child than meeting their basic needs for health, nutrition, shelter, and safety. This has been corroborated over and over again in every country ad nauseam. That we find it difficult to address the root causes of the problem are another matter. 

Still not defending incompetence, but the original thread had to do with how many teachers had failed a paper and pencil test of their suitability. I do not believe a paper and pencil test could ever ever quantify the effectiveness or suitability of a teacher. Just an example: May I remind you all of the Kindergarten teacher in Monterrey who kept her students calm and safe in the middle of narco gunfire (in which 5 persons were killed) singing a song with them as she kept them face down on the floor. Find me a test which addresses the actual human response in that kind of situation--obviously, a dramatic situation but the similar to a lesser degree to many, many situations that happen daily in schools that teachers must address. Untestable.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

sfmaestra said:


> Still not defending incompetence, but the original thread had to do with how many teachers had failed a paper and pencil test of their suitability. I do not believe a paper and pencil test could ever ever quantify the effectiveness or suitability of a teacher. Just an example: May I remind you all of the Kindergarten teacher in Monterrey who kept her students calm and safe in the middle of narco gunfire (in which 5 persons were killed) singing a song with them as she kept them face down on the floor. Find me a test which addresses the actual human response in that kind of situation--obviously, a dramatic situation but the similar to a lesser degree to many, many situations that happen daily in schools that teachers must address. Untestable.


Testing a teacher's ability to teach has to begin somewhere, doesn't it?, even with an imperfect paper and pencil test. What you're talking about with your example from Monterrey has to do with the courage and common sense of the teacher who kept her students safe - how on earth can you know that about a prospective teacher till the situation arises in which her or his character comes to the fore?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for clarifying who is eligible to buy or inherit a teaching position in Mexico. I still think this system stinks, but that's just my opinion. This must mean that none of the "maestro rurales" who are graduates of two-year normal schools in the boondocks have plazas. Is that correct?
> 
> I hope this new policy helps to improve the quality of teaching in the public schools. I wonder why teacher unions have so much power in Mexico - it surely hasn't helped to improve educational standards and outcomes in the country.


I think they gained power over the last 5 or 6 decades by striking for months on end and being a large solidarity voting block in many elections both federal, state and municipal etc. and having the support of many parents which admire strong unions that flex their muscle against the politicans on a regular basis. 

Remember some people dislike politicians more than they dislike being inconvenienced by teacher strikes or protests even now, never mind in the past. Teachers seem to be respected here and many are socialistic in their politics which is easy to pass on to students and parents under the right circumstances. This might be another reason many educated parents keep their children out of public schools, maybe. Even if these parents attended public school but went on to university etc.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

No level of defense for incompetent teachers ... is acceptable.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Longford said:


> My observation over the decades has been that, generally, public school teachers in Mexico have not been competent to teach the children which has contributed to a continuation of ignorance and poverty in the country. Amongst the Mexican families I've known, none will send their children to a public school (with the exception of some to state universities) if they have the finances to send them to a private school (and "private" schools aren't always what they may seem to be, either).
> 
> Following the election of President Peña Nieto, both chambers of the Mexican Congress adopted education reforms which included teacher competency requirements. Reports of first rounds of testing are being made public:
> 
> ...


http://mexico.cnn.com/nacional/2014...-maestro-de-educacion-basica-es-no-idoneo-sep


" ( CNNMéxico ) - Six out of 10 applicants who tried to get a tenure as a teacher of primary and secondary public schools in Mexico were rated as "unsuitable" Competition Examinations for Admission to Basic Education, informed the Ministry of Public Education (SEP).

Tests -aplicados 12 and 13 July, and whose results were released this Sunday- reveal that the total of 130.503 applicants, 79.032 teachers did not reach the score needed to qualify for any of the four performance levels considered "suitable" for obtain a teaching contract.

Candidates were evaluated in three dimensions: intellectual skills; Knowledge of basic education, and teaching skills.

51.471 teachers classified in any of the "ideal" levels, but not everyone will get a tenure as the number of places offered was 11,773.

The allocation of tenures and recruitment is carried out by state authorities, which offer approved workplaces available taking into account the resulting order of evaluation.
The next school year, 2014-2015, initiated courses this August 18, according to the calendar of the Ministry of Public Education (SEP).

The evaluation is part of the constitutional reform and the laws on education enacted in 2013, which provide that the income of teachers Teaching Professional Service, retention and promotion depend only on competitive examinations as first applied the month last.

The amendment was supported by the major political parties and the government of President Enrique Peña Nieto, but sparked protests by disgruntled teachers who charged that the new criteria violate their rights.

Ranking by states

Of applicants with "ideal" profile, the majority (23.7%) was positioned with evaluation C-indicating that demonstrated a sufficient level domain of knowledge and skills, but ample capacity to implement them.

-the Maximum rated A- level was obtained by just 3.5% of those who took the exam; the state with the highest percentage of applicants in this situation was Colima, with 6.9%.

Meanwhile, the highest percentage of "unsuitable" candidates for a tenure in the teaching service started in Chiapas and Tabasco, with 80% of applicants, followed by Guerrero, with 77.9% of its applicants in this situation. Campeche, Michoacán, Nayarit, Quintana Roo, Sinaloa, Tlaxcala, Coahuila, Morelos, Durango, Puebla and Tamaulipas recorded levels above 60% of "unsuitable" to be in front of a classroom teacher.

Querétaro had the lowest percentage of teachers with poor performance, with 43.1%, while 44% came Colima and the Federal District, 48.3% of applicants in this condition. Other entities took over 50% of its teachers with "unsuitable" rating.

Here we leave the ranking of states by percentage of "unsuitable" candidates for a place in basic education (for the complete breakdown."

These teachers were tested for recieving the 11,773 tenures available in all of Mexico at the present time, not tested for normal teaching skills or untenured teaching positions which are in the majority. Get with the facts as to how teachers and teacher unions and SEP runs public schools before making comments such as this.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Testing a teacher's ability to teach has to begin somewhere, doesn't it?, even with an imperfect paper and pencil test. What you're talking about with your example from Monterrey has to do with the courage and common sense of the teacher who kept her students safe - how on earth can you know that about a prospective teacher till the situation arises in which her or his character comes to the fore?


The CNN Mexico article seems to indicate all teachers will eventually need to pass the exam to continue to teach. I can see why the protests are happening as many will not qualify under the SEP reform and need to quite teaching or go to university and get a teaching degree. I suspect this is the majority of teachers.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> The CNN Mexico article seems to indicate all teachers will eventually need to pass the exam to continue to teach. I can see why the protests are happening as many will not qualify under the SEP reform and need to quite teaching or go to university and get a teaching degree. I suspect this is the majority of teachers.


For those who've been teaching a long time and can't pass the tests, is any help being given by the SEP to help them improve their scores?


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> For those who've been teaching a long time and can't pass the tests, is any help being given by the SEP to help them improve their scores?


There are supposed to be mechanisms in place to do that.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> For those who've been teaching a long time and can't pass the tests, is any help being given by the SEP to help them improve their scores?


If what the article insinuated is correct I feel it is unfair to give all teachers a test that hard if they don´t want a tenure or are, as you pointed out, 2 year rural college teachers. Many teachers from decades ago got hired in someplaces with no other degree than some bachiller or as they call then here now a "prepa" degree. They learned on the job which was more common decades ago in some places. 

I wonder if the rural college student teachers need a "prepa" degree fiirst after secundaria or not to enroll. If not they might have a very basic education for a teacher but I did read they specialize in agriculture, home building and small time marketing skills etc. more. Will they be phased out over the next decade or less?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Longford said:


> No level of defense for incompetent teachers ... is acceptable.


Stuff it!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> If what the article insinuated is correct I feel it is unfair to give all teachers a test that hard if they don´t want a tenure or are, as you pointed out, 2 year rural college teachers. Many teachers from decades ago got hired in someplaces with no other degree than some bachiller or as they call then here now a "prepa" degree. They learned on the job which was more common decades ago in some places.
> 
> I wonder if the rural college student teachers need a "prepa" degree fiirst after secundaria or not to enroll. If not they might have a very basic education for a teacher but I did read they specialize in agriculture, home building and small time marketing skills etc. more. Will they be phased out over the next decade or less?


Alan, shouldn't that be a prepa "degree" since it is equivalent to a high school diploma, not a university degree?

I have read that apart from the weak educational background of many of the "maestros rurales", one reason that the rural schools do such a poor job of educating their students is that they receive inadequate funding from the state and federal governments.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Alan, shouldn't that be a prepa "degree" since it is equivalent to a high school diploma, not a university degree?
> 
> I have read that apart from the weak educational background of many of the "maestros rurales", one reason that the rural schools do such a poor job of educating their students is that they receive inadequate funding from the state and federal governments.



"Bachillerato:

In Mexico 

Main article: Higher Secondary Education (Mexico)

In Mexico, the school is also known as high school. The study period is usually three years, but there are preparatory of 2 and 4 years. Some are divided into several areas of specialty, where students acquire basic knowledge to subsequently enter the University. There are also technical schools and open schools, all must be incorporated into the SEP (Ministry of Education) or any state or national university. These include: the UNAM, IPN, UAM, the UAQ and UACM in the Federal District; UANL in Nuevo Leon, UADY in Yucatan, CTU in Tamaulipas, the UAA in Aguascalientes, the Universidad Michoacana de San Nicolás de Hidalgo University and Vasco de Quiroga (UVAQ) both in Michoacan, the Universidad Veracruzana in Veracruz, University Guadalajara in Jalisco and Guanajuato University of Guanajuato. Each of the 31 states of Mexico has a state university; most of which are autonomous.

Due to high demand, distance learning programs, which use these technologies to reduce dropouts and increase opportunities for improvement, since in Mexico, according to the latest Census of Population and Housing (INEGI were created 2010), half of the population is 26 years or less. Young people in Mexico are on average 10 years of schooling, equivalent to the first year of upper secondary education. However, considering only the group of 25-29 years, notes that more than half (53.4%) have less than upper secondary education school, reflecting a significant lag [rezago] (INEGI, 2011)." 


Bachillerato - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

Rezago or lag in English is a significant problem here: "Categories of lag in Mexico

As seen in the data described here, the educational gap, both their amounts and the prevalence of either of its components (illiteracy, lack of primary or secondary deficiency), are strongly related to the age of the population, including by other factors as may be rurality, speaking an indigenous language or gender. The latter, while being relevant, have a different influence regarding ages.

The various generations included age of the population, not only in moments of their different vital and productive cycle, but have lived along the national history, diverse social contexts, in particular as regards the creation of national educational infrastructure, not to mention cultural factors in terms of valuation that is given to education, both for life and for work. Among the 32 million people in backlog [lag]are, in the end, people born before 1930, until the generations born towards the end of the twentieth century."

Plan Educativo Nacional

"Components and factors associated with educational backwardness [lag]accumulated in Mexico

Evolution of educational backwardness

The accumulated educational lag is the delay condition in which people are 15 years or older, have not reached the educational level considered basic in Mexico are studies secundaria. According to the last census of Mexico, in such a condition are nearly 32 million people, representing 41% of the population over 15 years. While the educational gap as a percentage of the population 15 years and over has been declining over the past 40 years in terms of absolute volume of people has had significant increases.

A similar situation occurs with some lag components: in the last 40 years, illiteracy and population without primary reduce their relative weight, although the amount of people remain similar. The component that has contributed to increased lag in absolute terms, the population is not completed high school: 40 years goes from 4.8 to 14.9 million people, even implying an increase in relative terms from 18-23% of the population 15 years and over.

Then different factors from which the educational gap becomes more specific connotations are explored."


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I thought the rural schools are not receiving funding anymore. I Chiapas 2 years ago some friends were telling me that the students of rural schools would have to pay and they could not afford it. I realized later that they were talking about the rural schools for teachers so I am not sure if those are funded or not anymore, at least the plan was for the students to pay for books and other things.

I think that the first stp would be to teach kids especially in the rural areas to read and write anc ount and all the basics. I know from kids I know that the level in some of the country schools is appalling and kids who are 11 or 12 cannot read or write or not without a huge effort. 

Many of the artisans I know who left school at 11 especially the women, cannot read or write and the ones that can only do it very poorly. It becomes a major handicap later on and limit what ppeople can do.

I would think that some of the less qualified teachers would be good anough to each young kids the basics and could be sent to isolated villages to help out kids and adults to at least read and write if nothing else. There is a huge need and everyone willing and able to help should be used.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> "Bachillerato:
> 
> In Mexico
> 
> ...


Writing in my role as an individual member, not as a Moderator, I would like to make a request. 

If you are going to post text that has been translated by Google or some other translation service, please clean it up and turn it into decent English before posting. Google translate performs a useful function, but turning out readable correct English is not one of its strengths.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Alan, shouldn't that be a prepa "degree" since it is equivalent to a high school diploma, not a university degree?
> 
> I have read that apart from the weak educational background of many of the "maestros rurales", one reason that the rural schools do such a poor job of educating their students is that they receive inadequate funding from the state and federal governments.


I think the main difference in the Mexican education system is when a student finishes Primeria and Segundaria public school at 15 years old, 9 years of different subjects not always similar to US and Canadian public schools, their overall general education is finished. There really is no high school to attend after that as we know it which is 3 years more of more advanced studies of general subjects. Primaria and Segundaria students attend school for about 4 hours per day, I spent 6 hours per day when I was in public school for 12 years getting a general education.

If they then go to a "Prepatoria" they will have to chose a career and take only subjects related to that career, not general subjects.

So a general education is 9 years and if they continue on 3 years more at a "prepatoria" taking specialized subjects related to a specific profession, they are not continuing their general education we call high school.

When you talk to some people that did not take an advanced secondary education you will soon learn they know little about scientific subjects such as ventilation [hot air rises and cold air rushes in to replace it], capillary action, mold, climate, ocean currents, World geography, World history, radio waves, etc. They have to find these basic things out on their own or won´t know what they are and why things are the way they are without asking someone who does understand them.

Even talking to some people with a University degree in a certain profession sometimes they still don´t know things we as high school gradutes take for granted as basic and "everybody" understand them. Well not here always because no teacher taught them about it during 9 years of public school. No teacher taught them about at a "prepatoria" for 3 or 4 years either.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

AlanMexicali said:


> Stuff it!


The most appropriate description of your continuing bad behavior on the forum is probably this:


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> I have read that apart from the weak educational background of many of the "maestros rurales", one reason that the rural schools do such a poor job of educating their students is that they receive inadequate funding from the state and federal governments.


My impression has been that all to many of the rural school teachers can't pass the entrance exams for teachers colleges and that the government has been all too willing to allow poorly educated teachers to teach continually poorly educated children. The teachers who were protesting/assumed to be killed at Iguala - who were from a "teachers university/school" near Tixtla, GRO, were, from everything I've read about them and the school and students, unqualified to be teachers ... as compared to teachers from more legitimate teacher training programs in Mexico. The level of corruption in the Mexican education system ... including many unfit persons permitted to teach ... is, I think, overwhelming. That many students overcome this huge obstacle and go on to live successful work lives is a testament to individual determination.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Alan and Longford :
I often do not agree with things that you write, but I hope you realize that I have tried to disagree without being too obnoxious, although, at times, I must admit, it has been difficult. 
You both provide a lot of good input here and Neither of you will ever back down when you believe that you are correct. I just wish that you could "agree to disagree" and not attack each others posts as something personal. Realize that you both come from different experiences (although some are quite similar) and that you both have an opinion that you are entitled to have. I'm not asking you to be "friends" , just be civil, ok? You are both too intelligent not to be. Thanks for reading my 2 cents.


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> If they then go to a "Prepatoria" they will have to chose a career and take only subjects related to that career, not general subjects.
> 
> So a general education is 9 years and if they continue on 3 years more at a "prepatoria" taking specialized subjects related to a specific profession, they are not continuing their general education we call high school.


There are a number of errors in your post but the most glaring is the paragraph above. Students studying preparatoria are not given studies limited to a certain future degree. It is exactly what it sounds like, preparing them to enter university regardless of any choice they may make in regards to which field they will enter. They will follow courses similar to the US high school system.

I say this as a parent who raised three children, who all attended school here from kinder through university.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Cristobal said:


> There are a number of errors in your post but the most glaring is the paragraph above. Students studying preparatoria are not given studies limited to a certain future degree. It is exactly what it sounds like, preparing them to enter university regardless of any choice they may make in regards to which field they will enter. They will follow courses similar to the US high school system.
> 
> I say this as a parent who raised three children, who all attended school here from kinder through university.


Good to know and I appreaciate your input. 

I keep getting handed color flyers at long red lights from the numerous private "prepas" here with courses outlined for 2 or 2 1/2 year "Bachiller" degrees for things like non-"tutular" nursing courses, technicians, public relations, customer service reps., computers, etc. and concluded now after reading your post these schools are not "prepas" in the tradition way but schools training people to have a specific job after 2 years. I don´t even know how they can call the degree a "bachiller" legally here, but they do. They should be called certificates if it was in the US I think.

They have billboards all over town as do the numerous private University "prepas." Private universities and private "prepas" are popping up all over San Luis Potosí since I have been coming here and have much competetion I suspect.

I read an article today that INEE is designing a teacher´s evaluation test to give teachers which seems to be required in the federal SEP reforms of 2013.

Here is the link:

Sylvia Schmelkes is right for the job as head of the INEE


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

A "bachillerato" is not the same as a bachelor's degree in the US, but rather equivalent to a high school diploma. The first university degree in Mexico is a "licenciatura" and those who have one are "licenciados" or "licenciadas".


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