# Spouse and dependent child visa refused



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Hi All

My wife and I applied for Spouse visa and Settlement od dependent child earlier this month. (Russia). We were told yesterday both applications were refused.

I'm genuinely shocked by 2 reasons given for refusal of Spouse Visa - (For my wife)

1)Relationship Requirements - We married in Russia in April and provided original document and notarised translation. 
REASON FOR REFUSAL - ' you have not provided divorce certificate or any other adequate official documentation to confirm your previous marriage was dissolved'. ‘Consequently I am not satisfied that your marriage is valid. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1 (d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules (E-ECP.2.7)

Response -We will provide divorce certificate at appeal. I Assume we are able to do this at the appeal stage? 

2)Financial Requirements – application demonstrated that as financial sponsor I met the gross earnings requirement of £22,400 pa. I had a letter from employer confirming my salary and length of employment , period of the level of salary relied upon and fact that it is permanent employment. 
Payslips have to cover a period of 6 months prior to application
Personal Bank statements must correspond to the same period showing that the salary has been paid into the account
REASON FOR REFUSAL – Payslips provided dated Sept 26th until May 27th (9 months) / Bank statements covered period April 1st 2014 to 15th May
‘You have not submitted bank statements which cover the exact same period as the payslips. You have therefore failed to provide the required documents relating to your sponsor’s employment.’ I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1 (d) of appendix FM of the Immigration Rules (E-ECP.3.1)

Response – They are technically correct but there it’s really pedantic. They have payslips and bank statements that match each other for a period of six months prior to the date of application. I just added the most recent payslip at the last minute. I will provide bank statement to the end of May on appeal. (This was not possible to do at the application date)


In the refusal they say ‘I note that no satisfactory reason has been put forward as to why the sponsor in the UK is unable to travel to be with you.’ Is this a standard response to a possible challenge I would make at the appeal? Nothing in the application process asks you to justify this.


I’ve sent this so everybody out there is aware of potential pitfalls. If anyone has any advice it would be very welcome.
Refusal of Settlement child is more complicated – I will post in separate thread.


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

*Visa Refusal - Dependent Child re: Sole Custody?*

Hi all
I found out yesterday that my Russia based Stepdaughter was refused entry clearance for dependent child visa. Her application was made alongside her mother - also refused. (detailed in separate thread). 



Clearance was refused due to Relationship Requirements as follows:

REASON FOR REFUSAL – ‘You have provided a letter of consent from your father stating that he agrees to your departure from the UK’. ( They are in Russia - I guess they mean ‘to the UK. Muppets! They also wrote my name incorrectly)
‘However you have not provided evidence to demonstrate that a suitable court or authority has legally granted your mother sole custody of you. I am therefore not satisfied that your mother has had and continues to have sole responsibility for your upbringing’
‘You have not demonstrated or provided any evidence that there are any serious or compelling circumstances surrounding your application which would make your exclusion undesirable and I am satisfied that suitable arrangements have been made for your care’
‘I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-C.1.1 (d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration rules (E-ECC.1.6. (b) and (C)

I must admit the ‘sole custody’ requirement completely passed me by when making the application. I did not realise that we had to prove this to facilitate a successful application. In our case my stepdaughter has lived with her mother since divorce but the father is a good guy and sees her regularly every other weekend. He also pays maintenance. He has written a letter to say he is ok with his daughter moving to UK. 

I have found some details online here .https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/children-set07/children-set07
But truth is – it’s an amicable joint custody. Better for all concerned especially the child. Does this mean the authorities think my stepdaughter should be separated from the mother with whom she has lived with all her life (and solely with for the past 7 years) ? 

Hoping someone out there has similar experience or information to advise – I have a wife and stepdaughter in tears in Russia. Any feedback prior to our appeal would be very gratefully received.

And good luck to all out there in a similar situation.


----------



## AmyD (Jan 12, 2013)

You need more than a letter from the father allowing the child to move out of the country. Your spouse needs to go to court to get approval to move the child to the UK. You can do that by modifying the terms of the divorce decree.


----------



## AmyD (Jan 12, 2013)

Your mistake was attempting to interpret the rules in the most favorable light to you. Simply follow the rules as they're written, whether you think they are pedantic or not. An appeal with take a long time; just reapply.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Fairly standard reasons for refusal.
#1 Not providing divorce document. This is fatal. Why didn't you? Without it, you can be in a bigamy situation. 
#2 Financial evidence. They aren't being pedantic. They are just enforcing the rule, which is clearly stated. You must provide, under Cat A, the payslips from the last 6 months prior to application, with the most recent one being no older than 28 days on the date of application. The corresponding bank statement must cover the same period. What was fatal was providing the latest payslip without corresponding bank statement. People often make a mistake of providing more than what is required, thinking that the extra will act as insurance policy. It does not. It only serves to confuse, and like in your example, can lead to refusal if as a consequence you no longer meet the requirement as laid down.
#3 We always suggest to put in their letter of introduction and sponsorship why they have chosen UK to be the desired destination for settlement, and why the option of settling in the other country or in a neutral state wasn't an option. While this isn't spelt out in guidance, UKVI expects you to make a reasoned case for choosing UK over any other.

So you were correctly turned down. You can go down the appeal route, but it can take up to a year and it will be quicker just to reapply with correct documentation.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

As I said in your other thread, you failed to interpret the rules correctly and were justifiably turned down. There is a whole body of documents about children and sole responsibility and how it can be demonstrated, with court order as an example. Bringing a child who isn't biologically yours is complicated and requires a lot of evidence and legal documents.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I have now merged your two threads to facilitate discussion.


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

AmyD said:


> You need more than a letter from the father allowing the child to move out of the country. Your spouse needs to go to court to get approval to move the child to the UK. You can do that by modifying the terms of the divorce decree.


+1 In addition, if the letter was not notarised who is to say that the letter was even written by the father?


----------



## manel (Jul 20, 2014)

Your latest payslip was dated on 27th May and the latest bank statement dated on 15th May ,so where is the one that matches the 27may?


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

So what happened was UKVI took payslip dated 27th May as the most recent and worked back to 27th Dec payslip as the 6-month period. There was no corresponding bank statement showing the latest pay going into your account, so you failed for not supplying the required evidence.


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Joppa said:


> As I said in your other thread, you failed to interpret the rules correctly and were justifiably turned down. There is a whole body of documents about children and sole responsibility and how it can be demonstrated, with court order as an example. Bringing a child who isn't biologically yours is complicated and requires a lot of evidence and legal documents.


Thanks again for your informative response. We will re-apply as there are imminent deadlines to sort out a school before September.

Re: Demonstrating sole responsibility.
Could you please explain further what you mean by 'court order'? My wife's ex is willing to allow his daughter to live in UK and has stated this in a letter (apostiled). But there is joint custody in place here - The child is not mentioned in the divorce decree. Neither parent has been awarded sole legal custody. It's an amicable arrangement and the ex acknowledges his daughter may live abroad in the alimony agreement. (with caveats on how often he would be able to see her).
My step daughter has lived with her mother since the divorce but both parents have say in schooling, medical issues etc. It's a positive arrangement in the best interest of the child.
I'm really worried now that we will not be able to demonstrate 'sole custody'. Any suggestions on how we might sort this sufficiently for re-application?


----------



## AmyD (Jan 12, 2013)

Your wife needs to go to petition the court for a change in child custody. She needs to ask for - and be granted - sole custody and/or the ability to make all decisions about where the child should live. If it is amicable as you say, you should have no trouble getting this done.

The letter from the ex is worthless - it could be forged and even if it is not, it has absolutely no legal power at all. You need something from a court, something with real legal power behind it.


----------



## hallelr (Jan 8, 2015)

Was the letter notarised? My letter from my ex was notarised and it was fine. He also stated in the letter that my daughter has lived with me her entire life (she's almost 15) and that he knew where she would be living in the UK as well as her new school.


----------



## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

[


hallelr said:


> Was the letter notarised? My letter from my ex was notarised and it was fine. He also stated in the letter that my daughter has lived with me her entire life (she's almost 15) and that he knew where she would be living in the UK as well as her new school.






Intercarrot said:


> Thanks again for your informative response. We will re-apply as there are imminent deadlines to sort out a school before September.
> 
> Re: Demonstrating sole responsibility.
> Could you please explain further what you mean by 'court order'? My wife's ex is willing to allow his daughter to live in UK and has stated this in a letter (*apostiled*). But there is joint custody in place here - The child is not mentioned in the divorce decree. Neither parent has been awarded sole legal custody. It's an amicable arrangement and the ex acknowledges his daughter may live abroad in the alimony agreement. (with caveats on how often he would be able to see her).
> ...



Apostiled (sic) - it would appear that they went through this type of service in Russia so that the biological father's letter can be confirmed as authentic.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Home Office, of which UKVI is a part, has legal responsibility to safeguard the welfare of children, so they take their role very seriously. They will need to know, for example, the degree of involvement in your daughter's life by her father, her personal wishes, father's wishes, and how contact can be maintained after moving to UK. We usually suggest you go through legal professional, as it can be a very complicated area.


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

hallelr said:


> Was the letter notarised? My letter from my ex was notarised and it was fine. He also stated in the letter that my daughter has lived with me her entire life (she's almost 15) and that he knew where she would be living in the UK as well as her new school.


Yes - the letter from the father was notarised. Did you have anything more than the letter from your ex such as proof of sole custody from a court ? (as advised by AmyD above)

Amy, if the letter from the father is notarised, surely it has some legal status and is not entirely worthless? I'm thinking that a more detailed letter than previously supplied would cover it if notarised.

Letter - agreeing that the ex is best placed to continue to look after the child as they have done since divorce
Agreeing to let the child live in England
Explaining that contact remains between father and daughter via Skype, telephone, regular agreed visits (as per the alimony agreement)
Agreeing that it is the child's wishes to remain with her mother 
Agreeing that it is the child's wishes to live in England
Explaining that he knows there is a support structure for the family in UK
Explaining that he knows where the child will live and schools applied to
Anything other suggestions?

The point is that the ex is a good dad and DOES have contact and an ongoing role in his daughter's life. He will continue to do this if she lives in the UK albeit in a different way. Does this fact necessarily mean that a claim of 'sole responsibility' is destined to fail?

Thanks again guys


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

From Home Office' point of view, they want to see *independent *confirmation of agreements, wishes and solutions, hence court order, legally negotiated and binding agreements and so on. It's not something you should be attempting on your own. UK legal advisor experienced in international custody issues will know what is required. Perhaps you can set up an initial advice session (which shouldn't cost you anything) to see what the way forward may be? Any subsequent fees are going to be high (likely to run into four figures).


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks Joppa - it's really useful to understand the various perspectives on this.

My wife (a Russian commercial lawyer) informs me that a Russian court will not formally consent to the 'sole responsibility' decree in these circumstances. The only document possible under Russian law will be an agreement between both parents regarding the daughter's future - in which the ex (another lawyer) agrees that the daughter needs to be with her mother.

It would be a more detailed version of their alimony agreement. It would be Notarised and apostiled. In your view would this count as 'independent verification' to the ECO?

Many thanks


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't know. IANAL. Home Office has legal department with experienced family law practitioners who will look at your case, so you should engage someone of similar standing who can present a convincing case. While you are working under the Russian law, the case must be watertight enough to stand a chance when an action is brought in the UK courts after the move. That's how I understand the situation.


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Thanks again Joppa.
Returning to my wife's refusal: We could provide the missing divorce certificate ~(translated and apostiled by legal authority) and the missing 10 days of bank statement very easily. An appeal is therefore a preferred option for cost - though not for timing from what I read here.

Is it really at this stage that the full 'appeal' process and subsequent wait starts?

The reason I ask is that the refusal states that 'it may be possible to resolve the points at issue without an appeal hearing'


Many thanks


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

No, from when you lodge an appeal and the First Tier Tribunal acknowledges receipt. 
It's called ECM review, which is the first step of every appeal procedure. But given the complexity of your case, I doubt the original decision will be overturned by Entry Clearance Manager.


----------



## Travelling Surfer83 (Oct 28, 2014)

I have to say that I sympathise with the financial issue. If you have provided the most up to date evidence possible where's the issue ? Either your bank statement or wage slip will be slightly more current than the other, unless they are issued on the same day !


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Provided the entries correspond with each other, fine. But you cannot provide one without the other, like in this case payslip without corresponding bank statement.


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Joppa said:


> No, from when you lodge an appeal and the First Tier Tribunal acknowledges receipt.
> It's called ECM review, which is the first step of every appeal procedure. But given the complexity of your case, I doubt the original decision will be overturned by Entry Clearance Manager.


Thanks again Joppa - I agree that there is complexity in the case of my stepdaughter. However the case of my wife is quite simple - a missing divorce certificate and 10 days of bank statements would satisfy the requirement. 

In your experience - 

A) Is it worth proceeding with an ECM review just for my wife's application?
B) Would this confuse and negatively impact on the dual application relating to my wife and step-daughter. (Previously a dual application made at the same time as each other)

Many thanks


----------



## Intercarrot (Jan 17, 2015)

Or indeed in anyone else's experience. ..

Has anyone out there ever done an ECM review?


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You don't 'do' ECM review. Your case is just passed to ECM for them to look at and review the original decision. Overturning it usually only possible if there was a clear mistake or oversight on the part of ECO (there wasn't in your case). Supplying missing documents (which were available at the time of original application but weren't submitted) may lead to your appeal being upheld, but it depends on the particulars of your case.


----------

