# Are we upsetting the locals?



## Guategringo

I am new to this forum, but not to Latin America. I have lived in Guatemala for the better part of 20 years, but have also lived in Costa Rica, Honduras, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico and Venezuela. Everywhere except in Guatemala, I lived for short stints of 6 months to 1 year working in my publishing business. 

During my time in these countries, two or three themes have reoccurred in almost every country when I get to know locals and the subject of expats or Americans arises. Most, but not all, feel that Americans tend to live in gated communities where other Americans live and eat and drink in establishments owned by other Americans or at a minimum where other American eat and drink. However, the biggest complaint or comment by locals is that Americans or foreigners in general do not want to learn Spanish.

At the risk of alienating everyone in this forum, I would like to hear your opinion of my comments. Do we as Americans only congregate where we feel most comfortable, speaking our native language and eating food we are accustomed to? Is that giving the expat a bad name? If that is the case, why move to a Spanish speaking country?

I for one am the complete opposite. There is no another American living within miles of me, I speak English only to my two children. My wife and I met each other 15 years ago and we started speaking Spanish to one another and have never stopped. In the course of a workday, I speak 90% Spanish and 10% English. 

However, friends I have (not Americans), who live in Cuenca, PV and other places in the region complain that Americans do not want to learn Spanish and that Americans get upset trying to explain themselves if a local does not understand English, or expats say “we do not do it this way back home.”

I believe this is a good topic of conversation and might have been discussed previously but I have not read every thread on the site. I believe it is important for those people looking to move to Latin America or already living in the region to hear the positive as well as negative things that locals will say or think about them. 

Your thoughts?


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I am new to this forum, but not to Latin America. I have lived in Guatemala for the better part of 20 years, but have also lived in Costa Rica, Honduras, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico and Venezuela. Everywhere except in Guatemala, I lived for short stints of 6 months to 1 year working in my publishing business.
> 
> During my time in these countries, two or three themes have reoccurred in almost every country when I get to know locals and the subject of expats or Americans arises. Most, but not all, feel that Americans tend to live in gated communities where other Americans live and eat and drink in establishments owned by other Americans or at a minimum where other American eat and drink. However, the biggest complaint or comment by locals is that Americans or foreigners in general do not want to learn Spanish.
> 
> At the risk of alienating everyone in this forum, I would like to hear your opinion of my comments. Do we as Americans only congregate where we feel most comfortable, speaking our native language and eating food we are accustomed to? Is that giving the expat a bad name? If that is the case, why move to a Spanish speaking country?
> 
> I for one am the complete opposite. There is no another American living within miles of me, I speak English only to my two children. My wife and I met each other 15 years ago and we started speaking Spanish to one another and have never stopped. In the course of a workday, I speak 90% Spanish and 10% English.
> 
> However, friends I have (not Americans), who live in Cuenca, PV and other places in the region complain that Americans do not want to learn Spanish and that Americans get upset trying to explain themselves if a local does not understand English, or expats say “we do not do it this way back home.”
> 
> I believe this is a good topic of conversation and might have been discussed previously but I have not read every thread on the site. I believe it is important for those people looking to move to Latin America or already living in the region to hear the positive as well as negative things that locals will say or think about them.
> 
> Your thoughts?


An expat friend in Mexico City told me a while ago that I'm not a typical expat, and he meant it as a compliment! Neither is he, by the way. What he was referring to is the fact that I speak fluent Spanish, had spent lots of time in Mexico before moving here permanently, know a great deal about Mexican history and culture, do not live in an expat "bubble", and understand and can deal with, and often enjoy, all the little differences that make living here both interesting and occasionally frustrating. The expat friends I have here are pretty much like me though I have heard tales of those who continue to feed The Ugly American image described in Gautegringo's interesting post.


----------



## AlanMexicali

Guategringo said:


> I am new to this forum, but not to Latin America. I have lived in Guatemala for the better part of 20 years, but have also lived in Costa Rica, Honduras, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico and Venezuela. Everywhere except in Guatemala, I lived for short stints of 6 months to 1 year working in my publishing business.
> 
> During my time in these countries, two or three themes have reoccurred in almost every country when I get to know locals and the subject of expats or Americans arises. Most, but not all, feel that Americans tend to live in gated communities where other Americans live and eat and drink in establishments owned by other Americans or at a minimum where other American eat and drink. However, the biggest complaint or comment by locals is that Americans or foreigners in general do not want to learn Spanish.
> 
> At the risk of alienating everyone in this forum, I would like to hear your opinion of my comments. Do we as Americans only congregate where we feel most comfortable, speaking our native language and eating food we are accustomed to? Is that giving the expat a bad name? If that is the case, why move to a Spanish speaking country?
> 
> I for one am the complete opposite. There is no another American living within miles of me, I speak English only to my two children. My wife and I met each other 15 years ago and we started speaking Spanish to one another and have never stopped. In the course of a workday, I speak 90% Spanish and 10% English.
> 
> However, friends I have (not Americans), who live in Cuenca, PV and other places in the region complain that Americans do not want to learn Spanish and that Americans get upset trying to explain themselves if a local does not understand English, or expats say “we do not do it this way back home.”
> 
> I believe this is a good topic of conversation and might have been discussed previously but I have not read every thread on the site. I believe it is important for those people looking to move to Latin America or already living in the region to hear the positive as well as negative things that locals will say or think about them.
> 
> Your thoughts?


What you have noticed I haven´t noticed but one thing I have noticed is some locals think expats or tourists who are obviously American or Canadian have extra money to burn and should be treated differently when negotiating with us. I rarely run into locals that think expats hang together or live in enclaves together because the only places I go where that is even possible is Puerto Vallarta and I don´t get any bad vibes from the locals there. I speak good Spanish and never get anyone telling me any secret things about foreigners they might think is odd, except the above. Alan

Now if you want to talk about people from Mexico City [locals], then yes I have had locals where I hang out comment on their oddities sometimes.


----------



## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> An expat friend in Mexico City told me a while ago that I'm not a typical expat, and he meant it as a compliment! Neither is he, by the way. What he was referring to is the fact that I speak fluent Spanish, had spent lots of time in Mexico before moving here permanently, know a great deal about Mexican history and culture, do not live in an expat "bubble", and understand and can deal with, and often enjoy, all the little differences that make living here both interesting and occasionally frustrating. The expat friends I have here are pretty much like me though I have heard tales of those who continue to feed The Ugly American image described in Gautegringo's interesting post.


It seems there has always been a tendency for immigrants to congregate with fellow immigrants. Look at all the Chinatowns, little Italys, Mexican enclaves, etc. in the US. Clearly that pattern has repeated itself in Mexico in a few cases, most notably Chapala/Ajijic and San Miguel de Allende.

But by no means does that describe the life of all US/Canadian immigrants to Mexico. Like Isla and the Original Poster, all of my neighbors are locals, most of my interaction is with tapatios and I speak Spanish.


----------



## johnmex

TundraGreen said:


> It seems there has always been a tendency for immigrants to congregate with fellow immigrants. Look at all the Chinatowns, little Italys, Mexican enclaves, etc. in the US. Clearly that pattern has repeated itself in Mexico in a few cases, most notably Chapala/Ajijic and San Miguel de Allende.
> 
> But by no means does that describe the life of all US/Canadian immigrants to Mexico. Like Isla and the Original Poster, all of my neighbors are locals, most of my interaction is with tapatios and I speak Spanish.


Me too! I also speak spanish and have been interacting with Mexicans since the early 80s. My wife and kids speak english/spanish with me and work is about 80% spanish 20% english. Although I do live in a gated community(don't hit me!), my neighbors are upper middle class Mexican families, not the polyester pantsuit crowd.


----------



## Guategringo

johnmex said:


> Me too! I also speak spanish and have been interacting with Mexicans since the early 80s. My wife and kids speak english/spanish with me and work is about 80% spanish 20% english. Although I do live in a gated community(don't hit me!), my neighbors are upper middle class Mexican families, not the polyester pantsuit crowd.


Hit you? What for, I was just expressing what I have been told. I did not make all of this up. However, I am pleased to see how all four replies speak fluent Spanish, live amongst locals and with the exception of Johnmex DO NOT LIVE in gated communities!!! 

As far as the comment about foreigners have more money to burn, quite logical don't you think since 15 million Hispanics left the region to go to the U.S. to find work...so those that remain are earning in a month what most people in the states earn in a week or less. However, I do not think there is resentment there, I think Mexicans or other people from Latin America feel that some, NOT ALL, Americans, Canadians, expats etc etc look down up them and treat them like just like their fellow Upper Middle Class countrymen do that johnmex referred to.


----------



## Guategringo

TundraGreen said:


> It seems there has always been a tendency for immigrants to congregate with fellow immigrants. Look at all the Chinatowns, little Italys, Mexican enclaves, etc. in the US. Clearly that pattern has repeated itself in Mexico in a few cases, most notably Chapala/Ajijic and San Miguel de Allende.


You hit the nail on the head Tundra. You stay around those you feel most comfortable with and I believe that since Americans moving to and living in Mexico has not been going on that long the locals are not quite sure how to react.


----------



## Guategringo

Isla Verde said:


> An expat friend in Mexico City told me a while ago that I'm not a typical expat, and he meant it as a compliment! Neither is he, by the way. What he was referring to is the fact that I speak fluent Spanish, had spent lots of time in Mexico before moving here permanently, know a great deal about Mexican history and culture, do not live in an expat "bubble", and understand and can deal with, and often enjoy, all the little differences that make living here both interesting and occasionally frustrating. The expat friends I have here are pretty much like me though I have heard tales of those who continue to feed The Ugly American image described in Gautegringo's interesting post.


Nice response Isla. Today I had 34 Guatemalans at my house for turkey and everything else, including pumpkin pie. The only thing on the table resembling typical food in Guatemala were black beans, out of respect for my wife's mother.... It is great to see how two cultures can get along and mesh. I believe I have changed the mindset of many of my wife's family members. Before getting to know me they thought most Americans were arrogant, pushy and full of themselves. Of course their experience with Americans here was the CIA putting puppet leaders in place.... its certainly is an experience to live amongst people completely different from yourself, but I would not change it for the world.


----------



## makaloco

I've been an expat for most of my adult life. When relocating here, even though I didn't know Spanish, I automatically chose a typical Mexican neighborhood and assumed I'd learn the language and how to go about life, just as I'd done elsewhere. That was five years ago, and everything worked out as expected, but that's because I pretty much knew what to expect.

Compared to other locations, there seem to be more Americans living in Mexico who have never lived anywhere else outside the US or learned a foreign language, so they tend to congregate in expat neighborhoods and seek out fellow English-speakers rather than just jump into things. But many of these folks are taking the plunge in their 50s and 60s that I first took in my 20s, so I try to cut them some slack. Most are very different from me, but the majority aren't "as seen on TV" Ugly Americans. A few of those have been present everywhere I've been, but it's easy enough to ignore them and try to set a better example myself.


----------



## sparks

It's a very old subject on ExPat message boards and nothing to really write home about. I do think most of the criticism is toward tourists or snowbirds. People who choose to retire/live here tend to be a little better about fitting in.

On the other hand I live in a small community about 3 kilometers from a small tourist town and my only ****** neighbors are here for 5-6 months of the year. The rest of the time it's Spanish only and I prefer it. Most of the gringos in the nearby town would not have been friends up north ... so I sure don't hang around with them just for the language.


----------



## cuylers5746

*We & the Locals*

Hi Guategringo;

I think it depends on where you live in Mexico and neighborhoods, etc. I really enjoyed the posts here, right on and thought I'd add a few more thoughts.

I'v been interacting here in Mexico with a great bunch of people, and a lot of educated cultured people, that have shown me a completely different facets of life down here. Very enjoyable. Within that context there are one or two of them that clearly seem to want to show me where the flat part ends and the cliff starts. Meaning, they clearly want to point out from time to time where they are different than us, and are proud of it, and also explain even in some jokeial expressions that Mexicans have had for decades in dealing with us. Most add up to meaning, "...we have decades upon decades of experience watching some outlandish behavior by you guys here in Mexico, but we let it wash off our backs like the rain does...". 

Then all of them and these two guys too, are very quick to point out what they admire about our society "up north", and how we approach things in life. They look up to us?

So, on the one point they point out our frailties by growing up in a factory environment society. Remember American's task in life seems to be all about making widgits. Then on the other hand they admire us very much.

The other thing I would like to point out. It's good you grant some slack of people in their 50's and 60's retiring down here, and their first heavy introduction to 400+ years of Spanish Culture, and that special Mexican Cultural addition to it. The poor Spanialitos for that matter don't get to enjoy Tamales, or Tortillas. A good reason for that slack is that older people (in the main part) have a lot harder time learning a foreign language. It's very hard, even for my Mexican Mother-in-Law (La Santa), never could learn English. So, I cut those people some slack too.

Another point needs to be brought up. During tough times, like bad Recessions or like now in the throws of a World Wide Depression several traits get really strong in societies. 
1.) Isolationism
2.) More negative thinking - even blaming other's for what life has dealt them.

Only bad remarks given to me or rude behavior ( I can count on one hand), have happened at the more severe time of this Depression - i.e. 2002 & 2008. Things were pretty bleak.


----------



## edgeee

I find this very enlightening.
As a US citizen, it has always been a point of contention (with me) that anyone who wants to live in the US should make it a priority to learn English.
However, most immigrants seem to disagree.

I can see why the reverse may not be true for everyone, but i fail to see the logic in that. 
If you want to live here, why limit your potential by eliminating communication?
Conversely, why would i think differently about moving to Mexico?

If i ever make it to Mexico, my highest priority will be to communicate with those around me.
Which means i will need to develop my ability to speak in Spanish.
It won't be easy, but i regard it as necessary.
It would be idiotic to do otherwise.
I have been known to be an idiot at times, but i'm smart enough to know that trying to live in Mexico without learning the native language would be counterproductive.
But that's just me.

IMO anyone who thinks they can live in Mexico without learning the native tongue is a masochist at heart. 
So heap on the abuse. If they didn't want it, why do they ask for it?


----------



## AlanMexicali

Guategringo said:


> Hit you? What for, I was just expressing what I have been told. I did not make all of this up. However, I am pleased to see how all four replies speak fluent Spanish, live amongst locals and with the exception of Johnmex DO NOT LIVE in gated communities!!!
> 
> As far as the comment about foreigners have more money to burn, quite logical don't you think since 15 million Hispanics left the region to go to the U.S. to find work...so those that remain are earning in a month what most people in the states earn in a week or less. However, I do not think there is resentment there, I think Mexicans or other people from Latin America feel that some, NOT ALL, Americans, Canadians, expats etc etc look down up them and treat them like just like their fellow Upper Middle Class countrymen do that johnmex referred to.


I just moved to a guarded, gated residencia almost a year ago and find I am the only Americano so far and I see another German couple here and there are about 100 or so houses and still many empty lots. 

On the border the family and friends of many Mexicans who immigrated to the US tell their family and friends back in Mexico how wonderful living in the US is, mostly exagerations, I found, and bring back goods and money when visiting home and have set up a stereotype existance for themselves even though they seem to leave out important information. Such as they are in debt up to their eyeballs and spend more than they make and can ever pay back. When they retire they will probably not own a house but keep paying rent and the new cars they drive are mainly eating up their chances to ever own a house. 

That is a common trend I have seen in San Diego and somehow feel it is a compensation for not being home near the family and culture they left behind. Many Mexicans have an idea that in the US the streets paved with gold because of this system of over compensation by some of their family and friends who immigrated there. 

When I talk to them about how much things actualy cost in the US they seem surprised as they think things cost similar, BUT only the PAY is huge. If you ask the average Mexican about social security or HMOs they scratch their heads and don´t know the employer or yourself pay lots of money for medical care and if you do not have a good plan when you are older and sick it will sometimes come out of your pocket, etc. Many think social security payments are huge and many family and friends living in the US keep them in the dark about the real cost of living in the US. I know none that have sent their children to university but know dozens here that have and are still doing this even now.

On a different note I do not know any Mexicans living in Mexico that have debts other than a car payment, and very few have told me this, so far, and the older ones usually own outright 2 or 3 properties and collect rent to susidize their income. When they retire they will not have to worry about rent or medical plans to pay.


----------



## FHBOY

At the fear of alienating a lot of my friends here, I will take issue with the idea that seems to be prevalent from the replies that those expatriates who choose to live in an environment of like persons are somehow not truly part of the society. Yes, their opinions, as well as mine, is a generalization and I can accept this.

In January we will move into what one of the posters has called an "expat bubble", the town of Ajijic, not to a gated community in Ajijic, but into what has been decried as a Gringoville and I resent the idea that by me moving there, instead of being the only English speaker in some small town, or neighborhood, my "expat experience" will be less authentic than theirs.

Most of the participants in the forum are my friends, many have been expats in Mexico for some number of years, many have lived in many other countries throughout their life times. For me, as for many others, we have not. Except for a year of study in Tel Aviv, I have spent most of my 63 years in the USA. I am a high school efficient Spanish speaker, and are not as comfortable as some of being in any location where I totally, and I mean totally, cannot communicate.

This being said, I too look askance at those USAer/Canadians with whom I will be living who eschew learning the language, blending in with the culture, understanding that they are the minority and guests in a foreign land and who insist on an environment that would turn even my town into a Florida retirement community. I call them "Palm Beach Expat Gringos" and they stand out even in Ajijic, and especially in PV [the parts we have seen], and they are just wrong.

It is our full intention, SWMBO and I, to work hard to learn the language well enough to not only get by at Lakeside, but to travel eventually throughout the country, even to those little towns that we now find slightly "scary" because we don't understand and can't communicate. We want to shop and live like the people we will live with, away from the Wal-Mart culture, but this takes time. I for one do not feel comfortable in the two ****** Food Markets in Ajijic, I find them pretentious and sort of like an elephant in the living room [and way overpriced to boot].

I believe, wholeheartedly, that there are many people like us, people who sincerely want to be part of their chosen culture, who know that it is us who need to change our way of thinking, living and behaving, and yes speaking, because of our decision to make this move but are not the "adventuresome" type to set themselves up in an environment where the challenges will defeat them and who will, because of it, leave. We have set our absorption into Mexico based on our comfort zone, our learning curve and our desire to enjoy our lives and not stress over everything...including learning the language.

In the end we are all different, TG and RV along with Isla have found their way into a comfort zone where the language and culture is comfortable to them. We will find a place where we will be comfortable to get started and I suspect that this, "you're not authentic because you live in Ajijic (or PV, Merida, Cancun)" is just a misconception. 

In a few years, who knows, I could join in with those I disagree with today...right?


----------



## conklinwh

1st, let me say up front that this is opinion based on small sample and that again could be called ignorant.

My experience is from traveling on business across some 30+ countries and living most of the '90's in Asia(Beijing & Singapore). Since was business driven, most of my experience was with business people, local and various country expats. Comparison in my case is about 8 years in Mexico post retirement so certainly different circumstances but a lot of similarities.

I basically put expats into one of three groups, again probably naive.

1st are takers. They are really out to take advantage of the situation and everyone around them. The bars in BeiJing & Singapore were full of men, married & not, looking for what the locals called CPGs(Chinese Party Girls). In most cases these really made my skin crawl.

On the other end of the spectrum were what I called the immersers that wanted to dive in and be more local than the locals if possible. I think this is especially true if a couple and one of the parties has that background whether Chiness in Bejing or Mexican in Mexico. I think that this great if that what drives you but it isn't me.

I sort of put me in the middle, muddle throughers, I really enjoy the local cultures and history no matter where I lived or traveled but don't feel comfortable going "local". I really need some personal anchors like an American breakfast to reset my stomach for the rest of the day. We have both local and expat friends and relationships tend to be more along socioeconomic than nationality. One painful lesson that a lot of Americans find out is that although changing slowly, socio economic level means a lot more in Mexico than the US. 
More than one dinner party has been crashed when a Mexican got insulted by whom they were asked to sit with and stomped out.

We certainly have friends and acquaintances in many of the different groups in Mexico but do get "counseled" about whom we should and shouldn't socialize with. 

I do find that unlike say Asia, Americans that move to Mexico tend to have less overseas experience. Therefore not at all surprising that initial more is toward environs that have more of a comfort level. I think that for many of these people, that this will evolve as they get settled.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Integrating into Mexico*

Hi Conklin;

Great post and enlightening seen from a World Level. Never thought about it in those terms. True-part of the truth.

One thing in these posts that stand including FHBOY is the brutal, no beating about the bush commentary. I 
like that, and it's refreshing that the "political correctness" nonsense can stay north of the border.

Your last paragraph summed up in a very nice way to FHBOY, that there's more out there than ****** Gulch. FHBOY does seem to have a great attitude upon this new life he's embarking upon and should really enjoy himself.

As far as the gated communities. Strange, but more and more even people like my wife looking into them for entirely different reasons. For Security. Yes, a guard with a night stick or even a pistol is nothing more than a back stop for a spray of bullets from automatic rifle fire from a pick up truck loaded with Cartel guys. But, the radio to the police then and there can quicken the response time of the local police 50% quicker than when they get to your house winding around the streets in the neighborhood. You'll find they are looking for the easeiest prey and quick exit and the gated, guarded community is not that. We have relatives in Puebla, that are 100% Mexican and so is their gated, guarded community. Even has a Church within it's confines.

Notice how the Cartel violence, bloqueadoras, etc. have all quieted down now that we have a new PRI Presidente? I wouldn't be suprised that already the PRI is cutting secret deals with the Cartels like in times of old? I know already the PAN is criticizing Nieto for holding meetings like he was already in the Presidency.


----------



## conklinwh

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Conklin;
> 
> Great post and enlightening seen from a World Level. Never thought about it in those terms. True-part of the truth.
> 
> One thing in these posts that stand including FHBOY is the brutal, no beating about the bush commentary. I
> like that, and it's refreshing that the "political correctness" nonsense can stay north of the border.
> 
> Your last paragraph summed up in a very nice way to FHBOY, that there's more out there than ****** Gulch. FHBOY does seem to have a great attitude upon this new life he's embarking upon and should really enjoy himself.
> 
> As far as the gated communities. Strange, but more and more even people like my wife looking into them for entirely different reasons. For Security. Yes, a guard with a night stick or even a pistol is nothing more than a back stop for a spray of bullets from automatic rifle fire from a pick up truck loaded with Cartel guys. But, the radio to the police then and there can quicken the response time of the local police 50% quicker than when they get to your house winding around the streets in the neighborhood. You'll find they are looking for the easeiest prey and quick exit and the gated, guarded community is not that. We have relatives in Puebla, that are 100% Mexican and so is their gated, guarded community. Even has a Church within it's confines.
> 
> Notice how the Cartel violence, bloqueadoras, etc. have all quieted down now that we have a new PRI Presidente? I wouldn't be suprised that already the PRI is cutting secret deals with the Cartels like in times of old? I know already the PAN is criticizing Nieto for holding meetings like he was already in the Presidency.


Appreciate the feedback. As I read your response, I couldn't help but think of the story about out running the bear. You don't need outrun the bear, just a companion.
Similar I guess to security. Doesn't need be perfect but at least better than like options.


----------



## RVGRINGO

We've noted, over a decade, that there are very few 'gated communities' where security is much more than an illusion. In our area, most are simply 'fraccionamientos' with a gate, some manned, some not. the streets can't be closed to public traffic; only a 'condominio' can do that.
Where there are 'guards', they are often mysteriously absent when there are 'incidents'. Money talks.
Some of our friends live in such 'enclaves' and some of them have been robbed, or worse. One couple has been 'hit' on four separate occasions. Friends who live on normal streets, in normal towns, don't seem to suffer in that way. I can only assume that they are not seen as concentrations of wealth, as are the 'fraccs.' Besides, neighbors, whove lived here for generations, know who the bad eggs are and they deal with them, themselves. 
Myths are easily made, and believed; but the truth is harder to fathom.


----------



## edgeee

I just love it when a plan comes together.
Granted, it wasn't my plan, but that makes no difference to me.
To see so many minds come to the same space in time means there is hope.
For so many to express similar feelings means there is a chance for us all.
Do i sound like a hippie? Well, so be it. Even hippies had a good idea once in a while.
Meanwhile, the harmonious vibes i see here make it possible to forgive and forget all the negativity so plentiful in other threads.
I congratulate you all for being so magnanimous.
I just hope the locals will recognize it for what it is.


----------



## kelsea44

I have been travelling to Mexico for vacation many years. I have recently bought a house with plans on living in Mexico when I retire. I am of the belief, if you move to a country, you should do everything you can to speak their language, and accept the ways. There was a post here that talked about "takers". I have seen/heard these types, and am embarassed by their actions. A person mad at a girl in a store that couldn't speak enough english to understand her, and stating she had being travelling to Mexico for 14 years...PLEASE, in 14 years you know no spanish? A lady telling me NOT to rock the boat....regarding how much an expat would pay a maid. REALLY? you are telling me how much I can pay someone, and I would be rocking the boat if I pay them more? It only takes a few people like this to give all expats a bad name. I know many expats that embrace the culture and the language, but I do see many that are "takers"


----------



## Guategringo

It is nice to see all the remarks and opinions. It is amazing how many of the people on this site see things so differently. I never suggested that it was wrong for Americans to congregate, eat, sleep or drink together... I have been in Latin American for almost half of my wife and I will never give up a pair of scrambled eggs, hash browns and two strips of bacon!!!! Just like I never would tell anyone from Guatemala to stop eating black beans, tamales and chuchitos, pepian, caquik, jocon or any other typical dish. That is who we are and what we are and has NOTHING in my opinion to do with assimilating into a different society, culture or country. To me assimilating is three or four fold. 
1.	If the language is different, learn enough to be understood and to understand.
2.	Do not continuously say, “They do not do it that way back home.”
3.	Respect the culture and customs of where you live and do not criticize them.
4.	Immerse yourself into some of the local activities, shop local, visit markets, and get to know local people and customs. 

However, each expat will find his or her own way of doing that and up to the level they feel comfortable. No one is right or wrong since at the end of the day it is all about your personal choices. 
I know personally that I do not like hearing from local people about pushy, arrogant and load Americans who want us to speak English. As is always the case, it is the few bad apples that ruin it for the rest of us.


----------



## Guategringo

> A lady telling me NOT to rock the boat....regarding how much an expat would pay a maid. REALLY? you are telling me how much I can pay someone, and I would be rocking the boat if I pay them more? "



I remember I was just recently married (15 years ago) to my wife, who is Guatemalan and I asked how much we were paying our maid and she said Q500 (about US$71 at that time, not its even less). I said for how long a week? She said no, for a month!!! Six days a week 6am to 7pm!!! I could not believe it and wanted to pay the poor girl more!!! My wife insisted I could not and should not. She even said it might be disrespectful if I did, she said that was the going rate.. things you learn and should be aware of.

Similiar to the so called sweat shops in Latin America that make clothing for the states. So many people complain about the law wages that are paid... however, that is the local wages and who are we to change it!!!


----------



## kelsea44

Sorry, I don't buy that. I am sure my maid did not feel disrespected when I gave her a raise. And I certainly do not agree with sweat shops. IMHO. :juggle:


----------



## Guategringo

kelsea44 said:


> :juggle:
> 
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy that. I am sure my maid did not feel disrespected when I gave her a raise. And I certainly do not agree with sweat shops. IMHO. :juggle:


That is what is so great about this world... everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. I have been here long enough and had a business long enough 20 years in this country (Guatemala) to know I cannot pay well over the standard other wise people will take advantage of me, my business and I will be singled out and that can goes for maids as well. You do not know how many maids have opened doors for their friends and family to rob the home they worked in...
my point is there is a standard here and it should be kept..


----------



## edgeee

Guategringo said:


> It is nice to see all the remarks and opinions. It is amazing how many of the people on this site see things so differently. I never suggested that it was wrong for Americans to congregate, eat, sleep or drink together... I have been in Latin American for almost *half of my wife* and I will never give up a pair of scrambled eggs, hash browns and two strips of bacon!!!! Just like I never would tell anyone from Guatemala to stop eating black beans, tamales and chuchitos, pepian, caquik, jocon or any other typical dish. That is who we are and what we are and has NOTHING in my opinion to do with assimilating into a different society, culture or country. To me assimilating is three or four fold.
> 1.	If the language is different, learn enough to be understood and to understand.
> 2.	Do not continuously say, “They do not do it that way back home.”
> 3.	Respect the culture and customs of where you live and do not criticize them.
> 4.	Immerse yourself into some of the local activities, shop local, visit markets, and get to know local people and customs.
> 
> However, each expat will find his or her own way of doing that and up to the level they feel comfortable. No one is right or wrong since at the end of the day it is all about your personal choices.
> I know personally that I do not like hearing from local people about pushy, arrogant and load Americans who want us to speak English. As is always the case, it is the few bad apples that ruin it for the rest of us.


I apologize, but i just couldn't help but wonder what the other half of your wife is worth?
Locals everywhere want to know.


----------



## kelsea44

Guategringo said:


> That is what is so great about this world... everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. I have been here long enough and had a business long enough 20 years in this country (Guatemala) to know I cannot pay well over the standard other wise people will take advantage of me, my business and I will be singled out and that can goes for maids as well. You do not know how many maids have opened doors for their friends and family to rob the home they worked in...
> my point is there is a standard here and it should be kept..




Yes, and that is yours....are you actually saying if you pay them a bit more, they will rob you???? :confused2:


----------



## Isla Verde

kelsea44 said:


> Yes, and that is yours....are you actually saying if you pay them a bit more, they will rob you???? :confused2:


Let's not forget that he's talking about Guatemala, not Mexico. I probably pay the women who occasionally cleans my apartment a bit more than a Mexican _ama de __casa_ might, but I have no fear that she will rob me. She's someone I can trust or I wouldn't let her into my house.


----------



## Guategringo

My wife is worth my LIFE and that is what I should have written!!!!


----------



## Guategringo

Have you been in Latin America long? Kelsea44


----------



## Guategringo

Isla Verde said:


> Let's not forget that he's talking about Guatemala, not Mexico. I probably pay the women who occasionally cleans my apartment a bit more than a Mexican _ama de __casa_ might, but I have no fear that she will rob me. She's someone I can trust or I wouldn't let her into my house.


Isla it is not about Guatemala versus Mexico don't go there because all the cartels have crossed over into Guatemala and made it a living hell.... It is about my wife spending here entire life in this culture and society and knowing much more than I do or you do... you give them an inch they will take a yard... We once came home one night and our made was lying on our living room sofa watching television. We treated her as an equal, she ate dinner with us and everything else..... but she took it too far. You need to be careful is all I am saying... 

I will be the first to tell you they are treated terrible here and Guatemalans are racist against their indigenous populations which is the majority, but I have not say in the matter.... once a foreigner always a foreigner...


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> Isla it is not about Guatemala versus Mexico don't go there because all the cartels have crossed over into Guatemala and made it a living hell.... It is about my wife spending here entire life in this culture and society and knowing much more than I do or you do... you give them an inch they will take a yard... We once came home one night and our made was lying on our living room sofa watching television. We treated her as an equal, she ate dinner with us and everything else..... but she took it too far. You need to be careful is all I am saying...
> 
> I will be the first to tell you they are treated terrible here and Guatemalans are racist against their indigenous populations which is the majority, but I have not say in the matter.... once a foreigner always a foreigner...


I mentioned Guatemala because my admittedly limited knowledge of life in that country is that in general there's much more poverty than in many parts of Mexico. Your wife's knowledge of her own culture doesn't necessarily translate into knowledge of how things work in Mexico. Over the years, I have spent extended periods of time in Mexico and have had occasional household help whom I treated decently and paid fairly and have never had the impression that because I gave them a few inches they would take a yard. Just my point-of-view, of course  .


----------



## mickisue1

AlanMexicali said:


> I just moved to a guarded, gated residencia almost a year ago and find I am the only Americano so far and I see another German couple here and there are about 100 or so houses and still many empty lots.
> 
> On the border the family and friends of many Mexicans who immigrated to the US tell their family and friends back in Mexico how wonderful living in the US is, mostly exagerations, I found, and bring back goods and money when visiting home and have set up a stereotype existance for themselves even though they seem to leave out important information. Such as they are in debt up to their eyeballs and spend more than they make and can ever pay back. When they retire they will probably not own a house but keep paying rent and the new cars they drive are mainly eating up their chances to ever own a house.
> 
> That is a common trend I have seen in San Diego and somehow feel it is a compensation for not being home near the family and culture they left behind. Many Mexicans have an idea that in the US the streets paved with gold because of this system of over compensation by some of their family and friends who immigrated there.
> 
> When I talk to them about how much things actualy cost in the US they seem surprised as they think things cost similar, BUT only the PAY is huge. If you ask the average Mexican about social security or HMOs they scratch their heads and don´t know the employer or yourself pay lots of money for medical care and if you do not have a good plan when you are older and sick it will sometimes come out of your pocket, etc. Many think social security payments are huge and many family and friends living in the US keep them in the dark about the real cost of living in the US. I know none that have sent their children to university but know dozens here that have and are still doing this even now.
> 
> On a different note I do not know any Mexicans living in Mexico that have debts other than a car payment, and very few have told me this, so far, and the older ones usually own outright 2 or 3 properties and collect rent to susidize their income. When they retire they will not have to worry about rent or medical plans to pay.


Alan, putting on a wonderful front when returning home is a time honored way of emigrants "proving" to the family back home that they made the right decision. There's a wonderful book called "The Warmth of Other Suns" about the south to north migration of hundreds of thousands of US blacks between the 1890's and the 1970's. 

In it, several of the people interviewed by the author, old enough to remember back to the days of the migration, talk about the pastors in church introducing Brother So and So, and Sister Such and Such, home from the north for Easter. 

Inevitably, they were dressed in their best, most stylish clothes. Not a word from their mouths about how they were limited to the least desirable housing, at the highest cost, while being offered only the lowest paying jobs in their new homes.

As for congregating with those with whom one is familiar...I really think that it's a matter of one's personality, and that is not age dependent. There are people all over the world, not just MX, who move there at retirement age and work to learn the local language, and become part of the community, not just find a place where there are more people who share their cultural background.

And, as noted, there are also people all over the world who congregate in enclaves with others who speak their language, eat their food and share their cultural touchstones. Studies have been done that show that it's not age, but one's beliefs about how aging affects learning, that predicts whether one can learn a foreign language. 

My two oldest have learned languages in their 20's and early thirties. My son, at 31, was able to learn enough Korean to understand what was being said by his coworkers in a little over one year of living in S. Korea. He couldn't converse well, but receptive understanding was good.

I can read a bit of Italian, having begun to try when my oldest moved there about 8 years ago. My pronunciation is decent, and when she and her fiance slow their conversation, I can understand a bit.

But my belief is that it's learning that allows one to keep learning. Maybe if more people believed that flexibility and adaptability were possible at any age, there would be fewer issues with the Ugly American.


----------



## Guategringo

Isla, a few things 
1. Occasional help is different from full time help that lives with you day in and day out for months or even years and works Monday through Saturday. 
2. Please do not lump them all together, we have had great maids in 15 years and some terrible ones as well. I believe I may know their mindset better than you.
3. Southern Mexico in the Chiapas area and in the east in Yucatan was once part of the Kingdom of Guatemala and if you have traveled there which I have extensively you will find a great deal of influence from Guatemala in those areas...what I am trying to say is the people are similar and my wife might know a bit more about Mexico than you think. PLUS and more important, she has a law degree from UNAM spent six to eight years off and on there so she too might know a bit about Mexican culture....


----------



## Guategringo

> But my belief is that it's learning that allows one to keep learning. Maybe if more people believed that flexibility and adaptability were possible at any age, there would be fewer issues with the Ugly American.


Very, very well said... I learned Spanish from scratch at age 30, without any schooling, just girlfriends and employees... and then my wife.


----------



## TundraGreen

Guategringo said:


> … but she took it too far. You need to be careful is all I am saying...


I agree about keeping some sense of role between employers and employees. I have a woman who has cleaned my house once a week for years. She is honest and has keys and I have no problems with her. However, my attitude changed a little bit after one experience. 

I have an iPad which I had let her nephew play with occasionally. The housekeeper and her nephew are often in the house when I am gone. One day I was looking at my iPad and I discovered someone had taken 180 photos with it. Looking through the photos I discovered lots of photos of the nephew making funny faces at himself. But I also discovered photos of another woman I had never seen. In some of the photos she was holding a cell phone that I recognized as one of mine. I have a cell phone from the US. I only use it on trips north. It is not a type you see in Mexico. Apparently this woman I had never seen had taken the phone out of the closet and was playing with it.

After that I had a discussion with my housekeeper about who was allowed in the house and about messing with the few possessions I have. I have never had any trouble since, but I did learn that you have to set limits and be clear about things.


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> Very, very well said... I learned Spanish from scratch at age 30, without any schooling, just girlfriends and employees... and then my wife.


Not everyone at the age of 30 can pick up a foreign language as you did without any formal instruction. It sounds like you're one of those lucky people with a good "ear" and a general talent for languages. On the other hand, I have run into quite a few expats over the years who claim to have learned all their Spanish "on the street", as the saying goes. Unfortunately, the Spanish they spoke was really, really bad, but they had no idea how bad it was. That's where formal instruction or interaction with native speakers who will correct your mistakes when appropriate is a superior way to learn a language IMO.


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> Isla, a few things
> 1. Occasional help is different from full time help that lives with you day in and day out for months or even years and works Monday through Saturday.
> 2. Please do not lump them all together, we have had great maids in 15 years and some terrible ones as well. I believe I may know their mindset better than you.
> 3. Southern Mexico in the Chiapas area and in the east in Yucatan was once part of the Kingdom of Guatemala and if you have traveled there which I have extensively you will find a great deal of influence from Guatemala in those areas...what I am trying to say is the people are similar and my wife might know a bit more about Mexico than you think. PLUS and more important, she has a law degree from UNAM spent six to eight years off and on there so she too might know a bit about Mexican culture....


1. I agree.

2. I didn't lump them together. These are your words, or maybe your wife's words, not mine: "It is about my wife spending here entire life in this culture and society and knowing much more than I do or you do... you give them an inch they will take a yard." I'm not a naive, recently-arrived-in-Mexico expat, ok? I understand the mind set of the woman I've employed over the years and you understand the ones who've worked for you in Guatemala.

3. I know quite a bit about the history of Mexico, including Southern Mexico and its cultural and historical links with Guatemala. But other parts of Mexico have had different histories and the cultures are different too.


----------



## Guategringo

Isla Verde said:


> 1. I agree.
> 
> 2. I didn't lump them together. These are your words, or maybe your wife's words, not mine: "It is about my wife spending here entire life in this culture and society and knowing much more than I do or you do... you give them an inch they will take a yard." I'm not a naive, recently-arrived-in-Mexico expat, ok? I understand the mind set of the woman I've employed over the years and you understand the ones who've worked for you in Guatemala.
> 
> 3. I know quite a bit about the history of Mexico, including Southern Mexico and its cultural and historical links with Guatemala. But other parts of Mexico have had different histories and the cultures are different too.


I believe there are many more similarities between the general populous of Guatemala and Mexico than you give credit. That is where I would difer to my wife since she studied there and employes six Mexicans here in her law office of which the majority of her clients here in Guatemala are Mexican. 

I never said you were a naive newby expat, on the contrary, I read where you have lived quite some time in D.F.


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I believe there are many more similarities between the general populous of Guatemala and Mexico than you give credit. That is where I would difer to my wife since she studied there and employes six Mexicans here in her law office of which the majority of her clients here in Guatemala are Mexican.
> 
> I never said you were a naive newby expat, on the contrary, I read where you have lived quite some time in D.F.


Though I've never had the opportunity to visit Guatemala, I have had a few Guatemalan friends, including a boyfriend, though this was many years ago, and I'm aware of the similarities and differences between the two cultures. If you and your wife end up moving to Mexico, you'll be able to see this for yourself. It will be interesting to read your take on Mexico after you've been here for awhile especially if you move to an area that is not in Southern Mexico.


----------



## Guategringo

We plan to move to either Guanajuato or Xalapa....Time will tell. Probably be there within six months... In February we are going to both places and will be staying in DF for a month..


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> We plan to move to either Guanajuato or Xalapa....Time will tell. Probably be there within six months... In February we are going to both places and will be staying in DF for a month..


I don't suppose you'll need a guide while you're in the DF, but I'd certainly be up for coffee with you and your wife.


----------



## Guategringo

I just told my wife we had a guide and she said con mucho gusto!!! I will let you know going forward the exact schedule. It depends on my writing assignments and a few cases she must wrap up...


----------



## davidtaxis

How have you changed from your life there, influenced by the natives?


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I just told my wife we had a guide and she said con mucho gusto!!! I will let you know going forward the exact schedule. It depends on my writing assignments and a few cases she must wrap up...


It sounds like fun. I love it when friends visit me here, because then I have a good excuse to be a tourist again.


----------



## Isla Verde

davidtaxis said:


> How have you changed from your life there, influenced by the natives?


To whom is your question being addressed? I could write a book, or at least an article, about how my life has changed since moving to Mexico.


----------



## Guategringo

Pace of life is much slower. I find the people friendlier, warmer, more open and willing to help. When I was first learning Spanish and made mistakes people helped me, not like in the states where many ridicule people for their accents and laugh at them when they make errors. 

I came here years ago due to a business opportunity and fell in love with the people, the food, the customs, the culture, the traditions and a law student, my eventual wife. I also find we eat much better here since anything and everything grows here and fruits and vegetables are so inexpensive we tend to eat much healthier. 

And you....


----------



## terrybahena

FHBOY said:


> At the fear of alienating a lot of my friends here, I will take issue with the idea that seems to be prevalent from the replies that those expatriates who choose to live in an environment of like persons are somehow not truly part of the society. Yes, their opinions, as well as mine, is a generalization and I can accept this.
> 
> In January we will move into what one of the posters has called an "expat bubble", the town of Ajijic, not to a gated community in Ajijic, but into what has been decried as a Gringoville and I resent the idea that by me moving there, instead of being the only English speaker in some small town, or neighborhood, my "expat experience" will be less authentic than theirs.
> 
> Most of the participants in the forum are my friends, many have been expats in Mexico for some number of years, many have lived in many other countries throughout their life times. For me, as for many others, we have not. Except for a year of study in Tel Aviv, I have spent most of my 63 years in the USA. I am a high school efficient Spanish speaker, and are not as comfortable as some of being in any location where I totally, and I mean totally, cannot communicate.
> 
> This being said, I too look askance at those USAer/Canadians with whom I will be living who eschew learning the language, blending in with the culture, understanding that they are the minority and guests in a foreign land and who insist on an environment that would turn even my town into a Florida retirement community. I call them "Palm Beach Expat Gringos" and they stand out even in Ajijic, and especially in PV [the parts we have seen], and they are just wrong.
> 
> It is our full intention, SWMBO and I, to work hard to learn the language well enough to not only get by at Lakeside, but to travel eventually throughout the country, even to those little towns that we now find slightly "scary" because we don't understand and can't communicate. We want to shop and live like the people we will live with, away from the Wal-Mart culture, but this takes time. I for one do not feel comfortable in the two ****** Food Markets in Ajijic, I find them pretentious and sort of like an elephant in the living room [and way overpriced to boot].
> 
> I believe, wholeheartedly, that there are many people like us, people who sincerely want to be part of their chosen culture, who know that it is us who need to change our way of thinking, living and behaving, and yes speaking, because of our decision to make this move but are not the "adventuresome" type to set themselves up in an environment where the challenges will defeat them and who will, because of it, leave. We have set our absorption into Mexico based on our comfort zone, our learning curve and our desire to enjoy our lives and not stress over everything...including learning the language.
> 
> In the end we are all different, TG and RV along with Isla have found their way into a comfort zone where the language and culture is comfortable to them. We will find a place where we will be comfortable to get started and I suspect that this, "you're not authentic because you live in Ajijic (or PV, Merida, Cancun)" is just a misconception.
> 
> In a few years, who knows, I could join in with those I disagree with today...right?


I like your post FHBOY. And I am someone who moved to a tiny fishing village where I am the only American and besides my husband, just 2 teenagers speak English. But I am not happy here....I need some expats around me. I need a larger population around me, and of course little things like consistent electricity...but I digress. I am looking forward to moving to an area with both Mexicans and expats where I can move between them. Our plan is to live in the locals area, and I guess I am lucky since I'm married to Mexican, but I need to work on my Spanish fluency, sometimes within an English environment. 

I think in any foreign country where one is a guest, we need to try to speak the language, understand and always respect customs, and..."when in Rome.." However I will say that everywhere I have been in Mexico, I have always been treated very nicely, people are always helpful and smiles are always free.


----------



## Isla Verde

terrybahena said:


> I think in any foreign country where one is a guest, we need to try to speak the language, understand and always respect customs, and..."when in Rome.." However I will say that everywhere I have been in Mexico, I have always been treated very nicely, people are always helpful and smiles are always free.


I think that smiles are one of Mexico's greatest natural resources!


----------



## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Not everyone at the age of 30 can pick up a foreign language as you did without any formal instruction. It sounds like you're one of those lucky people with a good "ear" and a general talent for languages. On the other hand, I have run into quite a few expats over the years who claim to have learned all their Spanish "on the street", as the saying goes. Unfortunately, the Spanish they spoke was really, really bad, but they had no idea how bad it was. That's where formal instruction or interaction with native speakers who will correct your mistakes when appropriate is a superior way to learn a language IMO.


Heh. Lucky me with the Italian. My future son in law has his master's in education, and he teaches Italian to the Italian equivalent of middle schoolers.


----------



## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Heh. Lucky me with the Italian. My future son in law has his master's in education, and he teaches Italian to the Italian equivalent of middle schoolers.


Has he been helping you informally with your Italian?


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> In the end we are all different, TG and RV along with Isla have found their way into a comfort zone where the language and culture is comfortable to them. We will find a place where we will be comfortable to get started and I suspect that this, "you're not authentic because you live in Ajijic (or PV, Merida, Cancun)" is just a misconception.
> 
> In a few years, who knows, I could join in with those I disagree with today...right?


I have no doubt that after a few years in Mexico, you will find yourself quite comfortable. You have a good attitude.

I have met people living in Ajijic who are fully integrated into life in Mexico. And I have met people living in small towns with few foreigners, working every day with Mexicans, who, nevertheless, are totally at odds with Mexico. Location by itself is no indicator of much of anything.


----------



## FHBOY

*New Thread Request*



Isla Verde said:


> To whom is your question being addressed? I could write a book, or at least an article, about how my life has changed since moving to Mexico.


It is an excellent question, and deserves a thread of it's own. We had a question similar to this last year and the answers were a very good read. MOD: Let's get this out for a thread, OK?


----------



## FHBOY

terrybahena said:


> I like your post FHBOY. And I am someone who moved to a tiny fishing village where I am the only American and besides my husband, just 2 teenagers speak English. But I am not happy here....I need some expats around me. I need a larger population around me, and of course little things like consistent electricity...but I digress. I am looking forward to moving to an area with both Mexicans and expats where I can move between them. Our plan is to live in the locals area, and I guess I am lucky since I'm married to Mexican, but I need to work on my Spanish fluency, sometimes within an English environment.
> 
> I think in any foreign country where one is a guest, we need to try to speak the language, understand and always respect customs, and..."when in Rome.." However I will say that everywhere I have been in Mexico, I have always been treated very nicely, people are always helpful and smiles are always free.


You see, you have an advantage I was speaking of, a Spanish speaker spouse. When there are two Spanish virgins, the isolation, I imagine, would be so discouraging. We were on our own for two days in Osaka, no tour, no guides and although it is a major city, it is not as tourist friendly as Tokyo, Kyoto etc. We were loathe to find anything and it was not a great experience. I suppose the Osaka experience stays with us.


----------



## terrybahena

FHBOY said:


> You see, you have an advantage I was speaking of, a Spanish speaker spouse. When there are two Spanish virgins, the isolation, I imagine, would be so discouraging. We were on our own for two days in Osaka, no tour, no guides and although it is a major city, it is not as tourist friendly as Tokyo, Kyoto etc. We were loathe to find anything and it was not a great experience. I suppose the Osaka experience stays with us.


It's kinda funny (strange funny not funny ha ha), but sometimes I feel even more isolated when hubby is laughing and talking with a group and I lost the gist of the conversation 15 ago.... at a low point I actually resented him for being my only communication source! But I pulled my head out of my *** and made a new list that included speaking to at least one person every day (not him) in Spanish, learning a new word every day, studying my Spanish/English dictionary, and watching tv in Spanish, and in English when there's subtitles in Spanish.

Funny (funny ha ha this time) I've learned alot from those subtitles, and also found out that sometimes they are so far off....we have had some good laughs when i tried out some sentences I saw scroll across the screen....

I love Mexico, and am very excited about our new adventure coming up soon. Actually I have become very close with a woman who speaks no English and we are making visit each other plans, and altho I'm ready to move on, a piece of my heart will remain in Playa Ventura....


----------



## DNP

Though many people use these words, I find them offensive: "Locals" and "Natives"

WashDC/SMA


----------



## makaloco

DNP said:


> Though many people use these words, I find them offensive: "Locals" and "Natives"


I agree. It seems fairly common among people from the US, but I don't know where it came from. I don't recall these terms being used anywhere else I've lived. To be fair, in many cases no offense is intended.


----------



## Longford

makaloco said:


> I agree. It seems fairly common among people from the US, but I don't know where it came from. I don't recall these terms being used anywhere else I've lived. To be fair, in many cases no offense is intended.


Peoples the world over make similar distinctions, using words in their local vocabulary. It's not a "people from the US" thing. This has been my observation.


----------



## Longford

Guategringo said:


> Pace of life is much slower. I find the people friendlier, warmer, more open and willing to help. When I was first learning Spanish and made mistakes people helped me, not like in the states where many ridicule people for their accents and laugh at them when they make errors.


Maybe what you observed in the USA had more to do with the types of people you associated with or where you chose to live ... than being reflective of the nation as a whole. Generally. I live in a city in the USA which is about as diverse as any in the nation. One of the most diverse on our planet. And I never, ever observe what you present as a conditon in the USA. I don't doubt it happens in an isolated manner in the USA, but the same happens in Mexico (maybe more openly than what one might see in the USA) .. and in other nations as well.


----------



## mickisue1

Longford said:


> Maybe what you observed in the USA had more to do with the types of people you associated with or where you chose to live ... than being reflective of the nation as a whole. Generally. I live in a city in the USA which is about as diverse as any in the nation. One of the most diverse on our planet. And I never, ever observe what you present as a conditon in the USA. I don't doubt it happens in an isolated manner in the USA, but the same happens in Mexico (maybe more openly than what one might see in the USA) .. and in other nations as well.


I agree. Years ago, I needed to deal with doctor's offices in Texas, at the insurance company where I worked. I was appalled at the staff who made no effort at all to learn the proper pronunciation for the names of their patients. What stood out most to me was that, if a patient had a Spanish or a Vietnamese last name, the office staff was certain to mispronounce it. 

How much effort does it take to ask someone who's bringing income to your employer, "I'm not sure how to pronounce your name, is it (your thought)?" They can then let you know how to do it properly.

But in other parts of the country, I didn't observe that issue. It was, apparently, OK to be disrespectful of something as basic as a patient's name in TX. By the same token, when talking with patients who had accents, it was the southwest, primarily, where they apologized for those accents. I would always comment that I couldn't even speak their language, so being bilingual with an accent was much better than I could do.


----------



## Guategringo

DNP said:


> Though many people use these words, I find them offensive: "Locals" and "Natives"
> 
> WashDC/SMA


DNP I am not so sure I understand? Native American is offensive? 

This is taken directly from a dictionary - one of the people indigenous to a place or country, especially as distinguished from strangers, foreigners, colonizers, etc.: the natives of Chile. 

for locals this - a local person or resident: primarily of interest to locals. 

These words are interchangeable around the world. Now if you use them in a derogatory fashion then I agree they are offensive. But then again any world can be offensive if used correctly by the speaker.. 

Do most of you feel "******" is offensive? I do 1000% more than natives or locals..


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> Do most of you feel "******" is offensive? I do 1000% more than natives or locals..


It depends on how it's said, who's saying it, and to whom it's being said. There's the very offensive epithet "¡pinche ******!" and then there's the term of endearment "mi gringuita".


----------



## DNP

Natives!

You don't find it offensive. 

I do.

Northern Virginia, USA, and SMA, MEXICO


----------



## FHBOY

Like any word, there is the connotative and denotative. The Native Americans used to call themselves "The People" within their tribe, while other tribes were, "Others". It was as simple as that.

We react to the connotative from our right brain: a ****** stereotype comes from the creative side and depends on observation. The word itself is harmless (left brain) denotative.

Coming from a minority in the USA, I have had to deal with the denotative vs. connotative when people refer to my ethnicity/religion.

In spoken language it is not only denotative vs. connotative, but inflection and pronunciation that makes words or designations offensive.

But, back to the topic: I would not be offended to be called a ****** as long as that meant a person from the outside who respects the culture. Rose colored glasses? Yes, probably, the term ****** seems to carry too many connotative negatives. So what then do we call ourselves that briefly describes our place in a society? We from the USA are not Americans, there are Americans from the Arctic Circle to the Antarctic. "USAer?" I use the term, it is not widely used. Marylander? Maybe but I was born and raised in New York? (talk about connotative vs. denotative with that!)

To look back at the USA, the term Mexican in too many places is used as an epithet and the very word is derogatory, right? Left brain, right brain, experience vs. prejudice - and for me no real answer.

Although "person" sounds good, "good person" even better.


----------



## makaloco

Longford said:


> Peoples the world over make similar distinctions, using words in their local vocabulary. It's not a "people from the US" thing. This has been my observation.


No argument there. What I hadn't encountered previously was US expats using the specific terms "locals" or "natives" to refer to people of the host country, as opposed to "Mexicans" or "Chinese" or "Swiss" or whatever. It is, of course, fairly common to say, "He's a Pennsylvania native" or similar. It's not the words, it's the usage that's jarring to me.

I cringe at "******" used by expats to refer to themselves or to me, and I was honestly shocked by that when I first moved to Mexico. If I use it, I'm making a derogatory or self-deprecating statement. I expected Mexicans to use it, but they rarely do (in my presence) unless they're just fooling around, as in Isla Verde's example, or a Mexican friend teasing me in the supermarket for buying "****** food".

"Native American" to me has the specific meaning of ethnically indigenous. I suppose I could be considered a native American, but not a Native American ... and preferably not a "native".


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> To look back at the USA, the term Mexican in too many places is used as an epithet and the very word is derogatory, right?


"Right?" No, I don't think so. That's not something I observe, and I live in an area where there's one of the highest concentrations of Mexicans/Mexicans in the USA. I've also lived in communities where Mexicans/Mexican-Americans were a small, new minority. I can't ever remember hearing someone use "Mexican" as a derogatory description. I more often hear when traveling in Mexico, and when I lived there, more derogatory comments from Mexicans about fellow Mexicans. Prejudice is widespread in Mexico, from what I've observed.


----------



## tepetapan

Longford said:


> "Right?" No, I don't think so. That's not something I observe, and I live in an area where there's one of the highest concentrations of Mexicans/Mexicans in the USA. I've also lived in communities where Mexicans/Mexican-Americans were a small, new minority. I can't ever remember hearing someone use "Mexican" as a derogatory description. I more often hear when traveling in Mexico, and when I lived there, more derogatory comments from Mexicans about fellow Mexicans. Prejudice is widespread in Mexico, from what I've observed.


I guess you live in a different area of the Chicagoland Area than I did for 35 years. They did and they do every day. And they do in most parts of the USA.


----------



## FHBOY

tepetapan said:


> I guess you live in a different area of the Chicagoland Area than I did for 35 years. They did and they do every day. And they do in most parts of the USA.


The issue is not the specific "Mexican", it is the connotation and preconceived notion that travels with it. We could substitute any noun describing people and come to the same conclusions: gay, Irish, Chinese, Jew, Democrat, Conservative, woman, mechanic. The point being that it seems that we instantly, generally, draw on stereotypes to complete our connotation of whom or what we are speaking of.

Hence we are back to "gringos." I don't think I like the term as it will be applied to me because my connotation of ****** is an ungraceful stereotype. There are and will be many non-Mexicans who defy the ****** stereotype, and I would like there to be another shorthand word to describe them (me).

You've brought up, however, another good point which I've just reinforced. We look at the definition through our own paradigm and in many case find it wanting. I wondering if Mexicans view the term "******" in the same light or as we have been discussing, is the Mexican attitude less judgmental than our own.

I think it comes down to this: in order to redefine the connotation, even to yourself, you need to behave in the antithetical way to the construct of the negative connotation, hence my aversion to "Palm Beach Gringos" as that construct. And it is just as simple as remembering that 1) you are a guest in someone else's home and 2) you represent, to those/that people the sum total of their momentary experience with one who is defined as "******", and it is therefore up to you to define it in their eyes.


----------



## terrybahena

Nobody calls me gringa here; if they don't know me they call me guerra (white girl). It's not meant negatively, it's just what they call me. We also have a Mexican friend who is light skinned and everyone calls him guerro (sounds like whero/a). This is the same in all the neighboring towns, big and small.


----------



## Isla Verde

terrybahena said:


> Nobody calls me gringa here; if they don't know me they call me guerra (white girl). It's not meant negatively, it's just what they call me. We also have a Mexican friend who is light skinned and everyone calls him guerro (sounds like whero/a). This is the same in all the neighboring towns, big and small.


Actually, that's "güera" or "güero" - "guerra" means "war"!


----------



## terrybahena

Isla Verde said:


> Actually, that's "güera" or "güero" - "guerra" means "war"!


ha ha!! Thanx!!!


----------



## Isla Verde

terrybahena said:


> ha ha!! Thanx!!!


You're welcome!


----------



## sunnyvmx

Oh pleeeeze. I personally left all that politically correct crap back in the States. I'm too old and to laid back and stress free to get worked up about it. I am a "native" Floridian, my mother was a Florida "native" and so was my grandmother. I never took that to mean I was Seminole, but maybe if I went back far enough, who knows? I chuckle if someone says I live in a "****** ghetto" or in "gringolandia." I eat and shop in the local restaurants and stores where the locals do and the only thing that would upset me is if they looked at my ****** face and tried to charge me the ****** price.


----------



## sunnyvmx

terrybahena, I understand your situation completely. I have often thought that I have the best of both worlds. In Tepetapan the casitas are rented mostly by Americans and the RV park gets visitors from the U.S., Canada and Europe so english is spoken. It's easy and enjoyable to visit with neighbors and speak in your native tongue. It's also exciting and adventurous to go out the gates and be immersed in the life, culture and language of Mexico. I love the challenge to speak only spanish and eat Mexican food while shopping for products and produce that have not been imported from the States to please me. I am certainly a curiosity here, but they wave at me as I zoom by on my blue scooter and I'm greeted with smiles everywhere I go. In the last five years they have learned to laugh with me at my mistakes speaking their language, but it's a relief to return home and hear my neighbor call out, "So, how'd it go?"


----------



## gudgrief

Zacatecas in not a town where a lot of expats live of any nationality. Of thehe other 6 or 8 Americans that live here fulltime, all but 2 are fluent in Spanish. People who are trying to be friendly usually ask, "Where are you visiting us from?" When I tell them I've been living here for 4 years, there's a complete change of attitude. Zacatecas is kind of parochial or provincial in that everyone pretty much knows everyone who was born in Zacatecas, an exaggeration for sure, biy not that much. A mexican friend of mine and I went to look around the new mall anchored by Liverpool. In the 45 min we were ther, he must have been greeted by a dozen people. Even I continually run into people on the street, Americans and locals, even the young lady I dealt with at Migracion. She waved at me with a friendly smile and "Adios." She was well past by the time I reacted and turned around.

Part of the nature of being a "forastero" (outsider), taxis and a very few merchants or repair people will try to get a few extra pesos out of you. You either check with friends first or learn prices on your own or pay the extra 5 pesos. Yeah, it's probably not the smartest thng, but paying $2.00US for a $1.60US taxi ride doesn't hurt so much when you consider that same taxi ride in the US could be as much a $10.00.

With no greater number of exceptions than I may encounter in the US, people here treat me in a friendly manner and treat me fairly. I try to keep things relaxed no matter what the problem, no matter how frustrating. People react positively to not showing yourself to be a loudmouthed short tempered ******.


----------



## mickisue1

gudgrief, one of my favorite authors was Jim Rohn. 

He used to say, "There are really only about 10 really rotten people in the world. But they get around a lot. When you have to deal with one, you can say to yourself, 'I've met him before....'"


----------



## mexine

A friend of mine once remarked: "You know what I like most about Mexico? It's full of Mexicans". That about sums it up for me. When in our town of Tequisquiapan we shop, dine and socialize with the local populace. There are a small number of expats but we do not search them out. I'd much rather pick my friends by virtue of their attitude and disposition, not because they speak my mother tongue. It helps that my wife and I speak Spanish. On the other hand, our next door neighbors - Mexicans - both speak fluent English and our get-togethers result in a Spanglish fest. It's funny since Tequis is a tourist destination for (mostly) urban Mexicans and fills up with visitors from the D.F. every weekend looking for a shot of small-town, old-time Mexico. In some perverse way I have come to resent them a wee bit as "outsiders" who clog our streets and make a little too much whoopee on Saturday nights. 
Getting back to the original question, I have not sensed resentment of any kind here, though speaking the language quite obviously paves the way for friendly encounters and mutual respect.


----------



## FHBOY

mexine said:


> Getting back to the original question, I have not sensed resentment of any kind here, though speaking the language quite obviously paves the way for friendly encounters and mutual respect.


That is an excellent point. Although our situation will have more English speakers because of where we will live, I somehow feel that in order to thoroughly enmesh with our new home we must become, at the very least, conversant in Spanish, what I call Street Spanish. I believe, as I have said often, that it is our responsibility to learn the language and customs of where we are going to live. Do I believe I will ever be totally fluent in Spanish? No, this old dog is having enough problems with English, but it does not exempt me from trying.

I sometimes wonder if those expats who eschew learning Spanish are also those who, maybe deep down, resent the Spanish speakers in the USA who do not learn English and are resentful of the USA being bilingual (the anti "Press One for English" crowd). Do they believe what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander?

_“It is not your obligation to complete the work, but neither are you free to desist from it”_ - Rabbi Tarfon (c 70CE – 150CE).


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> … Do I believe I will ever be totally fluent in Spanish? No, this old dog is having enough problems with English, but it does not exempt me from trying. …


Don't be too pessimistic about learning Spanish. I do not learn language easily and I am older than you are. With persistence, I am slowly mastering it. 

If you hang out with English speaking people all day and only exchange a few words with people in shops, you may never get very far. But if you work at it, you can do it.

The key is to keep trying. It will be harder for you since you will be speaking English with each other all day. But if you take classes, find people to chat with regularly, watch movies and/or tv, listen to the radio, read books, and keep at it, it will come.

For an introvert like me, the most challenging part of that list was finding people to chat with in Spanish. But finding people who wanted to exchange English conversation for Spanish conversation and paying my housekeeper a little extra to come by for conversation is giving me more practice every week.

Don't get discouraged when you don't see much progress day to day. The progress seems to come in steps. You will go for months feeling like you are not getting anywhere. Then one day you will notice that you have made a big jump.


----------



## mickisue1

+1 to Will.

There is a lot of data, from many fields, that indicates that it's not just age that governs one's ability to learn, it's also one's belief about one's ability to learn.

While babies and young children can learn any language easily, we quickly become restricted to learning with our left brains. The old "math anxiety" from which many girls suffered was just that: it wasn't that they couldn't learn math, it's that they were taught to believe that they couldn't.

The same goes for foreign languages. If we immerse ourselves in them, we can become conversant. Maybe we'll not be able to give a keynote address in whatever language we are learning, but we can certainly chat with the cashier at the store, and bargain for the best fresh vegies at the best price in the market.


----------



## joaquinx

> A friend of mine once remarked: "You know what I like most about Mexico? It's full of Mexicans".


Years ago, someone ask me what I liked the most about Mexico. The only answer that I could think of was the people. Mexicans taught me to say Buenas Días, Buenas Tardes, Por Favor, and Gracias. 



> I do not learn language easily and I am older than you are. With persistence, I am slowly mastering it.


Some days I am so fluent that it scares me, yet there are other days when I cannot understand a single word and some of those words are in English.


----------



## AlanMexicali

mickisue1 said:


> +1 to Will.
> 
> There is a lot of data, from many fields, that indicates that it's not just age that governs one's ability to learn, it's also one's belief about one's ability to learn.
> 
> While babies and young children can learn any language easily, we quickly become restricted to learning with our left brains. The old "math anxiety" from which many girls suffered was just that: it wasn't that they couldn't learn math, it's that they were taught to believe that they couldn't.
> 
> The same goes for foreign languages. If we immerse ourselves in them, we can become conversant. Maybe we'll not be able to give a keynote address in whatever language we are learning, but we can certainly chat with the cashier at the store, and bargain for the best fresh vegies at the best price in the market.


I am tone deaf. On Tuesday night I was at a private hospital and dropped my wife and father in law off at the entrance to the Urgencia. The security guard let me park in the parking structure. When I was walking out he asked me my name and the patient´s name and was trying to write in on his clipboard. He was getting my name wrong so I spelled it for him. Then he was getting my father in laws name wrong and I realized I was not pronouncing very well and stopped and took care and he finally got it spelled right. :confused2:


----------



## Guategringo

I sometimes wonder if those expats who eschew learning Spanish are also those who, maybe deep down, resent the Spanish speakers in the USA who do not learn English and are resentful of the USA being bilingual (the anti "Press One for English" crowd). Do they believe what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander?

I believe that if you were to take a survery, the majority of Mexicans residing in the U.S. between 50 - 75 years of age, that have not been there that long, DO NOT SPEAK ENGLISH, and I really do not blame them. They are in somewhat the same situation as many expats that retire to Mexico and either live amongst other expats or have a hard time with a new language. 

I really believe that for someone who plans to work, open a business or interact with others in Mexico then they must learn Spanish as much for their own good as out of respect for others. However, those who arrive late in life, are retired and just need to get by with minimum Spanish, I respect that as well. I think Mexicans just want expats to respect their culture, customs, beliefts and way of being. They do not want use to change their way of life and we should respect that. 

When I married my wife (Guatemalan) 15 years ago, I realized very quickly that I married the family and not just my wife. It was hard adjusting but to fit in best you need to adapt or leave. My mother in law has lived with us full time for the past 5 years and for the first 10 years was with us three to four days per week. At least I did not pay for daycare or babysitting!!!!!:focus:


----------



## fjack1415

Yes I think it is the sad truth about most of us Americans (and I think the English too). I am like you, I prefer to live with the natives (my wife is Mexican and still does not speak English). But I also enjoy meeting up with foreigners. Mostly I do this through my English speaking 12 step program here. But walking about town, yes, I notice there are a number of places often run by gringoes where Americans tend to congregate, often called "sports bars". But there are also a number of Americans here who have integrated to the extent that they can get along quite will in Spanish (I had it in high school, my wife speaks only Spanish, and I am still a long way from fluency!) 

Some years ago I was in Montezuma, Costa Rica, a wonderful little beach village on the Nicoya Penninsula. I make friends with many foreigners, mainly German, and these people intgegrated well with the locals and other foreigners. The Americans did not. I seemed that all the Americans (they were almost all young) clumped together. At ññthe end of the day they would all be at one restaurant that played (of course, American) movies after dinner. I seemed to mix with my fellow Americans like oil mixes with water. I was much more comfortable with Germans and other nationals who were much better educated and also more accostumed to dealing with and integrating with other cultures. 

An anecdote on the Ugly Anglophone. I was in Rio de Janeiro many years ago waiting for the tram to take me up to the top of "the rock" when all of a sudden this elderly South African woman (definitely a native English speaker, not Afrikaans) gets right into my face nearly spitting in her ire and complaining, 
*
"CAN YOU IMAGINE SIR, when I asked the waiter for MARGARINE (this was pronounced with a hard GEE which left me in the dark for an instant as to what she was talking about), WELL SIR, HE HAD NOT THE FOGGIEST IDEA OF WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR!" *
I mean besides the arrogance of it all, who the hell besides old bitties eats margarine anyway? 

Frederick


----------



## mickisue1

fjack, my sister spoke fluent French, and there's one of her stories that I still remember, 40 years later, about her time taking grad school classes in Strasbourg.

She was in a restaurant, having lunch with friends, when a group of Americans walked in and were seated. 

Apparently the service wasn't rapid enough for them, because one of the women looked around for the waiter, saw him and loudly called, "Garcon, Garcon, ici!"

But her accent was non-existent, and it came out "Garkon, Garcon, icky!"

And people think the French are rude.


----------



## FHBOY

Because what USAers call "states", Europeans call countries as far a distances and travel and even communication is concerned. And each of these countries have different languages which must be familiar. Moving from state to state in the USA, one need not learn anything more than localisms (soda vs. pop) to get by. I do not think it is inherent superior intellect that makes Europeans more at ease in other languages, as the way the continent is set up.

My sense is the closest we get on the Americas continents is Canada vis a vis Quebec and Brazil. I have to suppose that those living near French Canada are more familiar with French, just as those near Brazil, Portuguese. All of the rest of the continents have contiguous language compatibility.


----------



## Guategringo

> *"CAN YOU IMAGINE SIR, when I asked the waiter for MARGARINE (this was pronounced with a hard GEE which left me in the dark for an instant as to what she was talking about), WELL SIR, HE HAD NOT THE FOGGIEST IDEA OF WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR!" *
> I mean besides the arrogance of it all, who the hell besides old bitties eats margarine anyway?
> Frederick


I would like to add that my original thread was about expats "living" and "not visiting" in other countries. I have been to Nicoya Peninsula, to the surf hangouts and to other establishments. Not all Americans there are bad, but his point is well taken. Also, I think that many of the Americans he was referring to, as well as the South African woman, were tourists and not expats. Therefore, we should not condemn all Americans expats for being loud, obnoxious and standoffish....but many of the tourists are!!!!


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I would like to add that my original thread was about expats "living" and "not visiting" in other countries. I have been to Nicoya Peninsula, to the surf hangouts and to other establishments. Not all Americans there are bad, but his point is well taken. Also, I think that many of the Americans he was referring to, as well as the South African woman, were tourists and not expats. Therefore, we should not condemn all Americans expats for being loud, obnoxious and standoffish....but many of the tourists are!!!!


Point well taken, Gg. I would imagine that loud, obnoxious, and standoffish expats do not make it to the end of their first year before returning home, all the while complaining about how badly they were treated while living abroad.


----------



## dongringo

oh boy


----------



## Longford

Guategringo said:


> I think Mexicans just want expats to respect their culture, customs, beliefts and way of being. They do not want use to change their way of life and we should respect that.


Can you provide some examples of where you've seen, in Mexico, instances where expats from the USA, even Canada, are attempting to change the way of life or demonstrate a lack of respect for Mexican in those communities where the expats are gathering? Thanks.


----------



## dongringo

LongF. "attempting to change the way of life " is an interesting issue and deserves its own thread. But not "demonstrate a lack of respect". I think we are all too familiar with that subject.


----------



## joaquinx

dongringo said:


> LongF. "attempting to change the way of life " is an interesting issue and deserves its own thread. But not "demonstrate a lack of respect". I think we are all too familiar with that subject.


oh boy


----------



## Longford

dongringo said:


> LongF. "attempting to change the way of life " is an interesting issue and deserves its own thread. But not "demonstrate a lack of respect". I think we are all too familiar with that subject.


I sense that a dark cloud follows you as you walk about. What's your reference point for "demonstrate a lack of respect"? Maybe it's the people you choose to associate with, and not the almost 1 million expats from throughout the planet who are spending extended periods of their life in Mexico? What do you think? :confused2:


----------



## dongringo

Longf - That was your issue - not mine!


----------



## Longford

dongringo said:


> Longf - That was your issue - not mine!


Well, since you raised the question, I believe it is _your issue_.


----------



## gudgrief

Hard to call them expats, but they live in Mexico for extended periods. There are missionaries from several denominations who definitely are trying to change the Mexican way of life, so are the employees of several international companies. My Mexican friends have mixed feelings. Many believe that Mexico will have to change a lot to reach its potential, but insist on finding their own way. On an individual basis, no problem. Are we all being lumped into one group and "tarred with the same brush?"


----------



## RVGRINGO

Missionaries? Oh yes; the folks who believe in alien beings, but can't do math; or much of anything else.


----------



## joaquinx

Not missionaries, but the _illuminati_.


----------



## conklinwh

RVGRINGO said:


> Missionaries? Oh yes; the folks who believe in alien beings, but can't do math; or much of anything else.


I find this a very unusual statement. I'm certainly not into religious proselytizing but have met with many missionaries of many faiths. I find them generally very earnest but not that much different from the general population in terms of intellect. Many in fact are taking a break from college.
I'm sure that you have some deep seated basis for your comment.


----------



## Isla Verde

gudgrief said:


> Hard to call them expats, but they live in Mexico for extended periods. There are missionaries from several denominations who definitely are trying to change the Mexican way of life, ...


I've found an article about the effects (good and bad) of the work of Evangelical missionaries from the US in Chiapas. It's not dated, but it appears to have been written around 1995.

Mexico: Breaking down religious tensions in Chiapas


----------



## gudgrief

conklinwh said:


> I find this a very unusual statement. I'm certainly not into religious proselytizing but have met with many missionaries of many faiths. I find them generally very earnest but not that much different from the general population in terms of intellect. Many in fact are taking a break from college.
> I'm sure that you have some deep seated basis for your comment.


I have a personal objection to missionaries of any sort that use religion as a motivation for their work. From a practical standpoint, I can see the good that some do helping the poor not only survive but improve their economic and social status. 

I do have a cultural aversion towards an person or group, however well meaning, who comes at me with sales pitch over what I should believe regarding a Creator or how I have to live in order to be worthy. Where do they get the authority? I suppose there are some used car salesman who believe they always tell the truth and give you the best deal possible.


----------



## conklinwh

gudgrief said:


> I have a personal objection to missionaries of any sort that use religion as a motivation for their work. From a practical standpoint, I can see the good that some do helping the poor not only survive but improve their economic and social status.
> 
> I do have a cultural aversion towards an person or group, however well meaning, who comes at me with sales pitch over what I should believe regarding a Creator or how I have to live in order to be worthy. Where do they get the authority? I suppose there are some used car salesman who believe they always tell the truth and give you the best deal possible.


Not sure if we are straying off the point but I really appreciate the opportunity to engage missionaries in religious discussion. I just find comparative religious discussions stimulating.

Now I certainly don't condone hardcore/coercive activities and I can certainly appreciate missionaries that dedicate themselves to helping people.


----------



## FHBOY

gudgrief said:


> I have a personal objection to missionaries of any sort that use religion as a motivation for their work. From a practical standpoint, I can see the good that some do helping the poor not only survive but improve their economic and social status.
> 
> I do have a cultural aversion towards an person or group, however well meaning, who comes at me with sales pitch over what I should believe regarding a Creator or how I have to live in order to be worthy. Where do they get the authority? I suppose there are some used car salesman who believe they always tell the truth and give you the best deal possible.


Missionary work is, as you say, broad based and not confined to religion, although it is the associated with it. We seem to associate it with Christianity in many forms, but Judaism, Islam, and many other religions proselytize in one way or the other.

While you or I may have a firm belief system, there are many who do not and look to these missionaries to help sort out their life. It only gets evil when the missionary work turns into force, coercion and becomes fear based, "You will rot in Hell..." The vulnerable then become victims. Now, Mormons, for example, cruising the world are on missionary missions, but I have found them respectful when told that I am not a believer in what they are saying, to back off with a "Good Day". It respects my belief system.

You are correct that sometimes it seems they can be confused with car or insurance salespersons...which is unfortunate. 

We cannot, of course, equate missionary work with cult fanaticism, but can draw a conclusion that the perversion of missionary work could lead to that outcome, with often tragic results.

To bring this back to locals, we are looking at this in a 21st century world, where there is so much, too much, information available to us. I do not believe that we will ever again see the missionary work of the pre-20th century again. Through the information we have available, and through the lens of history this plethora of information provides, I believe that even a British Empire type of missionary work can no longer be sustained and definitely tolerated. We have seen the damage the pre-20th century missionaries: religious, political, social, have done. Missionary work is more effective in a place where communication is not as developed as the 21st century. There are hardly any untouched tribes anywhere on the planet like the ones we studied in cultural anthropology. The explosion of info tech has brought some knowledge to just about everyone on the planet, where the missionary cannot set him/herself up as the sole purveyor of the Truth as the Europeans did in Mexico and in other places.

So, are we upsetting the natives? The parallel thread to this talks about this in great depth, but I do not think that the majority of expats now living in Mexico are, in the main, missionaries (t)here convert them. We are emissaries of our beliefs, we do not believe (I hope) that Mexican natives need to have our enlightenment, that we expats are the sole bearers of the true life.

I think I have gotten way into this this and am losing myself in deep philosophical discussion at a time when SWMBO is more concerned with the mundane of packing, labeling and shedding. Maybe I should concentrate on that for a while, huh?


----------



## gudgrief

"but Judaism, Islam, and many other religions proselytize in one way or the other."
As far as I know, there is no recognized denomination of Judaism that proselytizes. By recognized, I mean that all other denominations recognize people born into the denomination as Jews and recognize conversions by other denominations if the forms follow their own practice.

It's just the opposite of proselytizing. People have to actively seek out knowledge of the religion and have to go through a course of study before they are considered for conversion.


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> … We seem to associate it with Christianity in many forms, but Judaism, Islam, and many other religions proselytize in one way or the other. …


Is that true? I am no expert, but my impression was that Judaism and Islam made it rather difficult to convert. Do you mean they proselytize in other ways.


----------



## dongringo

Yeah, jews do not proselytize, Their daughters, do so! I was, jewish by osmosis,


----------



## FHBOY

gudgrief said:


> "but Judaism, Islam, and many other religions proselytize in one way or the other."
> As far as I know, there is no recognized denomination of Judaism that proselytizes. By recognized, I mean that all other denominations recognize people born into the denomination as Jews and recognize conversions by other denominations if the forms follow their own practice.
> 
> It's just the opposite of proselytizing. People have to actively seek out knowledge of the religion and have to go through a course of study before they are considered for conversion.


You are correct that Judaism shuns active missionary work, and here is the BUT...there is a concerted effort of the Chabad, with it's Mitzvah Mobiles, it's outreach through media, to convert people. It is not necessarily non-Jews they are seeking to convert, they are mostly targeting Jews who have "strayed" from the "true path" as they see it. But they are visible in all major cities in the US, they are the ones who have built the Chanukah menorahs (BTW Happy Chanukah) and this IS a sort of subtle missionary work. If in the course of their highly visible work, non-Jews become Jews By Choice, I do not think they would be tossed out. (Please understand that in order to become a Jew By Choice, and it must be a individuals choice, there are rigorous hurdles to overcome...but that is for another discussion board.)

Here again, the question arises is this work of the Chabad necessarily a bad thing? Is the work of any missionary group necessarily a bad thing? We go back to degree and the means to then end.

It is hard to equate the work of Jewish missionaries with the more active Christian missionaries...but it does exist.

BACK TO THE TOPIC


----------



## gudgrief

Chabad is an Hassidic organization. Hassidism does not recognize conversions by other denominations, I think.

My understanding is that Chabad's goal to to bring Jews back to the orthodoxy Hassidism practices. There is some biblical or talmudic justification for that mission. They don not actively seek converts.


----------



## Guategringo

I started this thread talking about expats upsetting the locals? Missionaries in my opinion or separate from expats. Expats arrive to live in a foreign country to retire, work and carrying on with their lives. Missionairies arrive with a goal in mind and for many locals or in this case Mexicans, the goal has cause problems. 
Many church groups arrive here weekly to work in pueblos helping build homes, churches, schools and other structures, all in the name of the Lord. In Guatemala, Catholicism has taken a beating. Evangelical House of Worship are being built everywhere and pastors of those churches are becoming wealthy. 

To me that is more of a problem than missionaries. Local pastors asking parishnors for 10% of their income. These people earn US$250 a month or even less and they are being asked to give to the church and they are doing it!!! Sad state of affairs in my opinion. 

I have employees who earn the kind of money I just mentioned and they are always asking me to attend their Sunday services at their evangelical houses of worship. This all started because of missionaries who started coming to Guate between 2 and 3 decades ago and preached in the small pueblos.


----------



## Isla Verde

gudgrief said:


> "but Judaism, Islam, and many other religions proselytize in one way or the other."
> As far as I know, there is no recognized denomination of Judaism that proselytizes. By recognized, I mean that all other denominations recognize people born into the denomination as Jews and recognize conversions by other denominations if the forms follow their own practice.
> 
> It's just the opposite of proselytizing. People have to actively seek out knowledge of the religion and have to go through a course of study before they are considered for conversion.


As a Jewish woman living in Brooklyn in the 1990s, I became very aware of the proselytizing activities of several Hassidic Jewish sects. Their goal, however, was to bring non-observant Jews, such as myself, into the fold of the ultra-Orthodox or Haredi form of Judaism, not to convert non-Jews to their faith.


----------



## gudgrief

Guategringo said:


> To me that is more of a problem than missionaries. Local pastors asking parishnors for 10% of their income. These people earn US$250 a month or even less and they are being asked to give to the church and they are doing it!!! Sad state of affairs in my opinion.
> 
> I have employees who earn the kind of money I just mentioned and they are always asking me to attend their Sunday services at their evangelical houses of worship. This all started because of missionaries who started coming to Guate between 2 and 3 decades ago and preached in the small pueblos.


I think there is a tendency to include missionaries, some at least, with residents ang longterm visitors.

I knew a couple in the 1980's who earned a good bit less that $250/mo. He was a reformed alcoholic. The Mormons showed them literally how to survive and support their 3 children on what they earned. It's not all negative and I'm the last one to look to to defend any church or missionary effort.


----------



## perezl

How is Melaque , Jalisco? I invested a little bit with an uncle--- in some beachfront property near there. What is it like to live there? I don't fish. Someone suggested Colima to me, where it would be easy to get to beach quite often. (I love the water!! Grew up swimming alot). The water gives peace.


----------



## Longford

perezl said:


> How is Melaque , Jalisco? I invested a little bit with an uncle--- in some beachfront property near there. What is it like to live there? I don't fish. Someone suggested Colima to me, where it would be easy to get to beach quite often. (I love the water!! Grew up swimming alot). The water gives peace.


sparks, who posts here and on other Mexico-specific forums, lives at Melaque. I don't doubt that he'll post a comment if he sees your note. You can search for prior posts of his and send him a PM if you like. Also, too, search his screen name together with Mexico (afterwards) and I think you'll find his webpage for the area.


----------



## mickisue1

perezl said:


> How is Melaque , Jalisco? I invested a little bit with an uncle--- in some beachfront property near there. What is it like to live there? I don't fish. Someone suggested Colima to me, where it would be easy to get to beach quite often. (I love the water!! Grew up swimming alot). The water gives peace.


Perez, I was thinking about Colima, too. My husband is a dolphin.

But the weather is not conducive to a pleasant life, as it's hot and humid year round. 

We're now thinking about possibly dividing our time, at first, between Zihuatanejo in the winter, and Patzcuaro in the summer. I have a feeling that he'll tire of living at the beach, but why not try it out? When we get there, we'll be retired. It's not like we'll have to stay in a particular area for a job. jejejejeje.


----------



## perezl

MIckisue,
I saw picure of Colima and it looked hot-- even though I read that they moved it to place (in history) that is not as hot and humid. I have been to Zihuatenejo and to Patzcuaro and if I could afford it... would love to have place in each place. I think its really a nice combination.
We have a little bit of family in Morelia. They would love us to move to Morelia or Patzcuaro. My sister in law was selling country home lots and wanted us to buy one. They have a company that does the construction. I WANT TO GO FIRST, to see Queretaro......I have heard good things about it.When would you do it? I think we will sell our property in Tenacatica (near Melaque). 
I hope we stay in touch....


----------



## Guategringo

Just wondering what this has to do with upsetting the locals?


----------



## perezl

I will stretch it and respond.... I guess upsetting the locals has to do with Tenacacita because the locals are very upset over all the foreigners buying land on their beach. It sure has complicated our land purchase. We can't even start builidng.....


----------



## RVGRINGO

Too many don't understand 'ejido land' and the serious complications involved.


----------



## Longford

perezl said:


> I will stretch it and respond.... I guess upsetting the locals has to do with Tenacacita because the locals are very upset over all the foreigners buying land on their beach. It sure has complicated our land purchase. We can't even start builidng.....


Starting about a decade ago, there was an expat, Canadian I believe, who pimped and cajoled people to buy land at Tenacacita. He was like a 'bad penny', always turning up. 'A fool and his money are soon parted', typically, when someone gets involved in buying land cheaply in an ejido. There are probably a few success stories for someone to relate, but the losses so many people have suffered from them and othere clouded land transactions are legendary in Mexican RE circles. _Caveat Emptor!_


----------



## JohnSoCal

joaquinx said:


> Years ago, someone ask me what I liked the most about Mexico. The only answer that I could think of was the people. Mexicans taught me to say Buenas Días, Buenas Tardes, Por Favor, and Gracias.
> 
> 
> 
> Some days I am so fluent that it scares me, yet there are other days when I cannot understand a single word and some of those words are in English.


I don't want to appear picky but it is "buenos días", not "buenas días". The word "dia" is masculine. It is one of the many Spanish words ending in "a" that are masculine such as "mapa", "programa", etc.


----------



## terrybahena

mickisue1 said:


> Perez, I was thinking about Colima, too. My husband is a dolphin.
> 
> But the weather is not conducive to a pleasant life, as it's hot and humid year round.
> 
> We're now thinking about possibly dividing our time, at first, between Zihuatanejo in the winter, and Patzcuaro in the summer. I have a feeling that he'll tire of living at the beach, but why not try it out? When we get there, we'll be retired. It's not like we'll have to stay in a particular area for a job. jejejejeje.


You are smart! Hot & humid year round got old for us in 6 short months, as did living at the beach. But also like you, we're retired- so we tried it out, and have left for cooler pastures. I LOVE wearing socks!We'll see how we like Sonora...the beach is still close by, but not blowing salty grime and sand into our house all day, every day...


----------



## TundraGreen

JohnSoCal said:


> I don't want to appear picky but it is "buenos días", not "buenas días". The word "dia" is masculine. It is one of the many Spanish words ending in "a" that are masculine such as "mapa", "programa", etc.


I am always struck by how clearly people enunciate the difference when greeting me.


----------



## mes1952

I speak Spanish and tend to associate more with Mexicans as I found many of the Americans here in Rosarito (and Baja) not so friendly; I guess because of the language barrier. I don't shop at Costco and rarely go to Walmart (as it is more expensive than other stores). I think many Americans (especially age 65+) tend to isolate themselves and consequently give that impression. And if the person doesn't speak Spanish they will probably get ripped off at some point in their stay in Mexico.


----------



## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> I am always struck by how clearly people enunciate the difference when greeting me.


I love it when people speak to so fast here in Spanish that their enuciation sounds like a 4 year old´s. I can follow it but it took years to learn how to differenciate words this well.

I picked up the trick when conversing in Spanish that if I come to a word or words I have had trouble pronuncing and know it I simply rattle off the whole sentence at 90 miles an hour and that word or words become a non issue.


----------



## JohnSoCal

I am fluent in Spanish and my wife is a dual US/Mexican citizen. We were married in Mexico and lived there. I have also worked and lived in different areas of Mexico. Our son played professional baseball in Mexico and was on the Mexican All Star team that competed in the International Olympic Baseball tournaments in 1993 and 94. I also started and owned a business in Mexico.

We don't live in Mexico as we far prefer living in Southern California but we do visit quite often to visit family and do the tourist thing. We take a lot of timeshare vacations in Puerto Vallarta, Nuevo Vallarta, Rivera Maya, Cancun, Mazatlan, etc.

When in Mexico, we only associate with Mexicans, both locals and tourists.


----------



## m109pilot

If we expect to develope a relationship with our new friends I feel its only right to learn as much Spanish as possible, it shows a willingness to fit in and a bit ofrespect for the people around us.

Just my 2 pesos


----------



## gudgrief

*No Embarassment*



AlanMexicali said:


> I love it when people speak to so fast here in Spanish that their enuciation sounds like a 4 year old´s. I can follow it but it took years to learn how to differenciate words this well.
> 
> I picked up the trick when conversing in Spanish that if I come to a word or words I have had trouble pronuncing and know it I simply rattle off the whole sentence at 90 miles an hour and that word or words become a non issue.


That approach makes sense.

I have an alternative that works pretty good for me.

A total of 11 years living in Spanish speaking countries has not trained my ear, I'm getting old, to pick out all words. I listen carefully and if I have any suspicion at all I didn't hear correctly. I read back what they said as a question. If the response is still not clear, I ask them to repeat slowly, especially with my doctor.

I lost any sense embarrassment over mispronouncing words years ago. I just go ahead and pronounce it as best I can. People are very nice about correcting pronunciation courteously. If it seems like the message didn't get through, I talk around the suspect word.

If not sure of a word, I take a guess and explain in other words with a description what I'm talking about. Again, people are very kind about explaining vocabulary and usage. It sure helped understanding _"A poco!_, _"No manches!"_ and _"Luego luego"_ amongst others.

At my age, it takes a while to build vocabulary. This approach helps me.


----------



## AlanMexicali

gudgrief said:


> That approach makes sense.
> 
> I have an alternative that works pretty good for me.
> 
> A total of 11 years living in Spanish speaking countries has not trained my ear, I'm getting old, to pick out all words. I listen carefully and if I have any suspicion at all I didn't hear correctly. I read back what they said as a question. If the response is still not clear, I ask them to repeat slowly, especially with my doctor.
> 
> I lost any sense embarrassment over mispronouncing words years ago. I just go ahead and pronounce it as best I can. People are very nice about correcting pronunciation courteously. If it seems like the message didn't get through, I talk around the suspect word.
> 
> If not sure of a word, I take a guess and explain in other words with a description what I'm talking about. Again, people are very kind about explaining vocabulary and usage. It sure helped understanding _"A poco!_, _"No manches!"_ and _"Luego luego"_ amongst others.
> 
> At my age, it takes a while to build vocabulary. This approach helps me.


I feel that I was having trouble about 10 years ago with sorting out individual words especially when spoken rapidly. At that time I switched the radio to Spanish channels only and had a 1 hour commute to work in the morning and 30 minutes later at night. 

I dove Fri. after work to Mexicali, 2 hours, and returned Mon. at 6AM all the while listening and after about 1 1/2 years I had assimilated word differences quite well.

My vocabulary is large as I would constantly ask my ex wife "What is that in Spanish?" mostly nouns though.

Congregating verbs is still a problem even if I know what they are .... using them is another thing as habits have formed now and practice is not convenient except when I write or read, which I do a lot of the last couple of years. It is getting better.

I can almost follow anything on TV, radio or in conversion and even with Drs. and amaze myself sometimes. It gets better and better every year now.


----------



## citlali

We know a whole lot more Mexicans living in gated communities than Americans. Although there are lots of gated communities by the Lake Chapala we only know one couple who lives in one and all of our other friends live in mixed areas, some well off some poor.
On the other hand all the middle class and upper middle class Mexicans we know live in gated communities where have super security compared to non existent security of the gated communities i in the Lake Chapala area. 
Gated communities are not the exclusivity of the foreigners living in Mexico.

I get so sick of hearing from American apologizing for not speaking a language or about Americans butchering the language. That is what happens when you come from an area where one language dominates. Wether you like it or not English is an easy way to communicate in many areas in the world and there is not enough emphasis in the States about learning another language but when you need something in a foreign country it is nice to have one language you can communicate with.
I notice that many people who only associate with Mexicans and only speak Spanish crowd the English speaking forums. Why is that? Is there a lack of Spanish forums?

When you come from an area where your language is not of much used outside of the country, you learn another language if you come from an area where your language can be used just about everywhere then you do not bother learning another language . This is the way it works everywhere in the world.

This said it is a major plus to speak the language of the country where you live and I cannot imagine why people would not want to learn it. 
Our experience is that where the expats are younger like in San Cristobal the comon language is Spanish spoken with all kinds of accents and when the expats are older the language is English, So have your pick..

We assocaite with people who have comon interests and usually have a mixed crowd, it can make it a little more difficult bu everyone gets along if you have a comon interest.


----------



## gudgrief

AlanMexicali said:


> I feel that I was having trouble about 10 years ago with sorting out individual words especially when spoken rapidly. At that time I switched the radio to Spanish channels only and had a 1 hour commute to work in the morning and 30 minutes later at night.
> 
> I dove Fri. after work to Mexicali, 2 hours, and returned Mon. at 6AM all the while listening and after about 1 1/2 years I had assimilated word differences quite well.
> 
> My vocabulary is large as I would constantly ask my ex wife "What is that in Spanish?" mostly nouns though.
> 
> Congregating verbs is still a problem even if I know what they are .... using them is another thing as habits have formed now and practice is not convenient except when I write or read, which I do a lot of the last couple of years. It is getting better.
> 
> I can almost follow anything on TV, radio or in conversion and even with Drs. and amaze myself sometimes. It gets better and better every year now.


Watching the news in Spanish does help. They don't slowdown for clarity.
My doc speaks pretty slowly but there are technical terms that differ because of differences in usage and he likes to digress and wax philosophic on a wide range of topics. Lots of new words.

I was trying to explain something about atrial fibrillation I had had and why my US doc had prescribed certain other medicines to go along with the one for fibrillation.

He didn't understand _Fibrilacion Atrial_ which is the literal translation.

Some time back the US stopped calling the upper chambers of the heart auricles and switched to atrium (plural atria.)

In Mexico, the term is _Fibrilación Auricular_.

Small difference, and maybe he was just distracted, but I do have to be very careful with technical terms and instructions.


----------



## citlali

When it comes to your heart or any other vital organ you are way better off being able to be communicating in a precise manner....
When I first got here , I did not speak Spanish and the doctor sent me to have an angiography done. When the camera got to my heart or close to there , my heart started going slightly crazy and the doctor screamed at me "abre la boca" I understood "boca" but I had not idea what to do since I was out of it and did not sget the connection between the heart, the groin and the mouth..then he asked the nurse "tiene something" and she responded "si" and then he screamed at her to get it..I knew right then that if I were to live here, I had to learn Spanish no ways about it...


----------



## JohnSoCal

citlali said:


> I notice that many people who only associate with Mexicans and only speak Spanish crowd the English speaking forums. Why is that? Is there a lack of Spanish forums?


I assume that you are referring to me as one of those people. We only associate with Mexicans when we are in Mexico. We live in Southern California and associate mainly with English speaking people here though we also have many Mexican friends here.


----------



## Hound Dog

deleted


----------



## citlali

I was not referring to anyone in particular.
I always find it amusing when in a small town in Mexico with very few foreigners that some of the foreigners there only say "Buenas dias " to Mexicans and ignore you if you say" hello". 
I also find amusing that people who profess speaking only Spanish can be found on the English speaking forum telling everyone they only speak Spanish.
. 
No I did not have you in mind. There are interesting people in every group and only wanting to be part of one exclude you from the others. Just my take.


----------



## AlanMexicali

citlali said:


> I was not referring to anyone in particular.
> I always find it amusing when in a small town in Mexico with very few foreigners that some of the foreigners there only say "Buenas dias " to Mexicans and ignore you if you say" hello".
> I also find amusing that people who profess speaking only Spanish can be found on the English speaking forum telling everyone they only speak Spanish.
> .
> No I did not have you in mind. There are interesting people in every group and only wanting to be part of one exclude you from the others. Just my take.


What are you talking about?! If you live in Mexico and only Spanish is spoken where you live including a spouse what the hell are we supposed to speak! Chinese?


----------



## gudgrief

AlanMexicali said:


> What are you talking about! If you live in Mexico and only Spanish is spoken where you live including a spouse what the hell are we supposed to speak! Chinese?


We're all expats or soon-to-be-expats in Mexico. I think most of us are much more fluent in our native language, the largest contingent being English speakers.
I post in English here. I watch movies and TV that originated in English in English. I watch some news in Spanish but get most of what is important to me in English to be sure I don't misunderstand.

I have a wide vocabulary, but my 70 year old ear can't keep up with full speed Spanish. I do quite well because people are kind enough to slow down if I ask.

With Mexican friends, I take the cue from them. If they choose English,we do English to the extent we can and may drop into Spanish to be sure we understood what may have been something I couldn't even correct in English alone.

If they choose Spanish, I stick with Spanish talking in circles if I have to to make up for missing vocabulary unless they help me out in whatever English or further Spanish explanation they can.

I use Spanish exclusively with Mexicans I meet for the first time until they indicate different or my Spanish runs out. If my Spanish runs out in a non social setting it makes for some interesting learning situations.

I believe that's the best way I can honor my host country. 

It works for me. At least cops and customs and immigration officers haven't hauled me off if I politely stick up for myself when I feel I'm in the right.


----------



## JohnSoCal

citlali said:


> I was not referring to anyone in particular.
> I always find it amusing when in a small town in Mexico with very few foreigners that some of the foreigners there only say "Buenas dias " to Mexicans and ignore you if you say" hello".
> I also find amusing that people who profess speaking only Spanish can be found on the English speaking forum telling everyone they only speak Spanish.
> .
> No I did not have you in mind. There are interesting people in every group and only wanting to be part of one exclude you from the others. Just my take.


FYI, it is "buenos dias", not "buenas dias". Dia is masculine.

Like Alan said, what are we supposed to speak. My wife is Mexican. If you speak to me in English, of course I will reply in English. However as I said, when in Mexico, we associate with Mexicans who all speak Spanish. Unlike the US which doesn't have an official language, Mexico does and it is Spanish.


----------



## conorkilleen

gudgrief said:


> With Mexican friends, I take the cue from them. If they choose English,we do English to the extent we can and may drop into Spanish to be sure we understood what may have been something I couldn't even correct in English alone.
> 
> If they choose Spanish, I stick with Spanish talking in circles if I have to to make up for missing vocabulary unless they help me out in whatever English or further Spanish explanation they can.
> 
> I use Spanish exclusively with Mexicans I meet for the first time until they indicate different or my Spanish runs out. If my Spanish runs out in a non social setting it makes for some interesting learning situations.
> 
> I believe that's the best way I can honor my host country.


I echo this 100%. I feel that in Mexico, you need to speak Spanish if you have the chance. I have been in countless business meetings with educated Mexicans that speak English, and they ask me if I feel comfortable having the meeting in Spanish. Of course I say yes.

When I meet a new person in a social setting, I only speak Spanish until they elude to their fluency in English, or lack of, in conversation. Most times the new people I meet are surprised that I even speak Spanish and then are put at a little more ease with the conversation. You don't want people to feel uncomfortable trying to communicate in English with you, right? How ever are you going to make new friends if you create the mental perception that you are hard to talk to because of the language difference?

I speak Spanish 75% of my day. Not because have to, its because I want to. I live in Mexico and I see it as a show of respect when out and about. Especially at restaurants, movies, business meetings, traffic stops, and other situations where you are not guaranteed to be around other people of the same tongue.

I admit, after a long day of Spanish, I do enjoy a nice English spoken movie on Netflix....no subtitles please.

One negative thing I have seen regarding speaking Spanish the majority of the day/week/month, is that sometimes I forget the English word I am looking for and wind up using Spanish word instead. My co-workers think I am slowly turning Mexican. I'm ok with that.


----------



## Guategringo

conorkilleen said:


> I echo this 100%. I feel that in Mexico, you need to speak Spanish if you have the chance. I have been in countless business meetings with educated Mexicans that speak English, and they ask me if I feel comfortable having the meeting in Spanish. Of course I say yes.
> 
> When I meet a new person in a social setting, I only speak Spanish until they elude to their fluency in English, or lack of, in conversation. Most times the new people I meet are surprised that I even speak Spanish and then are put at a little more ease with the conversation. You don't want people to feel uncomfortable trying to communicate in English with you, right? How ever are you going to make new friends if you create the mental perception that you are hard to talk to because of the language difference?
> 
> I speak Spanish 75% of my day. Not because have to, its because I want to. I live in Mexico and I see it as a show of respect when out and about. Especially at restaurants, movies, business meetings, traffic stops, and other situations where you are not guaranteed to be around other people of the same tongue.
> 
> I admit, after a long day of Spanish, I do enjoy a nice English spoken movie on Netflix....no subtitles please.
> 
> One negative thing I have seen regarding speaking Spanish the majority of the day/week/month, is that sometimes I forget the English word I am looking for and wind up using Spanish word instead. My co-workers think I am slowly turning Mexican. I'm ok with that.


I agree with ConnerKilleen about speaking Spanish in a business setting out of respect for the people around you. I could not imagine a Mexican going to a meeting at Company XYZ in the U.S. and holding a conversation in Spanish. It just is not right.
I think on this forum there are two groups – those retired and living in Mexico and those working and living in Mexico. For those of us still working for a living the majority of our day is spent speaking Spanish, unless you are in the tourist industry and onsite with large numbers of foreigners.
As for the retired folk on the forum, I guess that is up to the individual, I cannot speak for others. BUT I would guess, those that have English as a native language use it at home and out and about when with those who also speak the language fluently. If they visit a restaurant or any other business establishment I am sure most attempt Spanglish unless they are fluent in Spanish, while a small amount use English and sign language. 
Nevertheless, it is important to remember if we were in the U.S. and someone came into our place of business we would automatically expect them to speak English and therefore we should at least try to make an attempt ourselves at doing the same in Mexico.


----------



## conorkilleen

If you live outside of the "bubble" then I have no clue how any American or English speaking foreigner can feel comfortable only speaking English. I feel bad for the American CEO types or Business Leaders that are transplanted into Mexico to serve at a company branch without having any prior exposure to the language and culture. I knew a few families in Monterrey that were like that and they lived in their own little bubble, not because of choice, but because they had to. St least they were getting paid big bucks though, right? No amount of money could replace the comfort of my family. I feel fortunate that I had 4 years of practice and deep immersion before attempting to live here.

Mexico City would have had me for Breakfast months ago if I was not fluent. When I go to the coast of Oaxaca to visit my wifes parents, NOBODY speaks English....only in Puerto Escondido you may find a gaggle or 2 of English speakers, however I tend to stay away from there at all costs.


----------



## Guategringo

conorkilleen said:


> If you live outside of the "bubble" then I have no clue how any American or English speaking foreigner can feel comfortable only speaking English. I feel bad for the American CEO types or Business Leaders that are transplanted into Mexico to serve at a company branch without having any prior exposure to the language and culture. I knew a few families in Monterrey that were like that and they lived in their own little bubble, not because of choice, but because they had to. St least they were getting paid big bucks though, right? No amount of money could replace the comfort of my family. I feel fortunate that I had 4 years of practice and deep immersion before attempting to live here.
> 
> Mexico City would have had me for Breakfast months ago if I was not fluent. When I go to the coast of Oaxaca to visit my wifes parents, NOBODY speaks English....only in Puerto Escondido you may find a gaggle or 2 of English speakers, however I tend to stay away from there at all costs.


My English bubble burtst 21 years ago to the month when I moved Guatemala without knowing more than si, no, hola and adios. My partner was a Brit who had lived in Guatemala for 10 years and was my interpretor for the first few weeks until he started to travel to sell our product and I stayed in the office with no one who spoke English. 

I have be in Mexico for only a couple of months and D.F. for a few weeks and I cannot image the large corporate heaveweights accepting a position here without being able to speak Spanish. 

When we return home (home for me is Guatemala) no one in my wife's family speaks English so its 100% Spanish except for with my two sons.


----------



## mickisue1

What I find interesting is that, when I've had conversations with people for whom English is not their first language, here in the US, they ALWAYS apologize for their lack of fluency, if they are the least bit hesitant.

I tell them that it's fine; they are speaking in their second (or third, sometimes) language, and I barely can speak theirs, at all.

Yet, the Ugly American is a cliche all over the world, expecting people in every country to be able to converse in HIS/HER language. In truth, many can.

But it's not that hard to learn a handful of words in most languages, that, accompanied by smiling, pointing and please/thank you in that language, will get you through a myriad of situations.

One, of course, is the word for bathroom!


----------



## gudgrief

Guategringo said:


> I have be in Mexico for only a couple of months and D.F. for a few weeks and I cannot image the large corporate heaveweights accepting a position here without being able to speak Spanish.


When I worked for GM in Ramos Arizpe, there were more than a few gringos who could not get anything out of a meeting in Spanish. The daily Production Manager's meeting and weekly Plant Manager's meetings were in English. Even at headquarters in Mexico, English ruled except at the middle management level where a single ****** was meeting with several Mexicans.

That was 1982-1985. I wonder if it has changed.


----------



## gudgrief

mickisue1 said:


> What I find interesting is that, when I've had conversations with people for whom English is not their first language, here in the US, they ALWAYS apologize for their lack of fluency, if they are the least bit hesitant.
> 
> I tell them that it's fine; they are speaking in their second (or third, sometimes) language, and I barely can speak theirs, at all.
> 
> Yet, the Ugly American is a cliche all over the world, expecting people in every country to be able to converse in HIS/HER language. In truth, many can.
> 
> But it's not that hard to learn a handful of words in most languages, that, accompanied by smiling, pointing and please/thank you in that language, will get you through a myriad of situations.
> 
> One, of course, is the word for bathroom!


Absolutely!

Brazil, Morocco, Thailand, Japan. A smile and a few words was a great icebreaker.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Ah yes; the word for bathroom: In Turkey, the word for one hundred, uz numerasi, is also the word for bathroom because they seem to have borrowed it from the Brits; 100 of course looks like LOO, does it not, especially in lower case: loo ?


----------



## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I think on this forum there are two groups – those retired and living in Mexico and those working and living in Mexico. For those of us still working for a living the majority of our day is spent speaking Spanish, unless you are in the tourist industry and onsite with large numbers of foreigners.
> As for the retired folk on the forum, I guess that is up to the individual, I cannot speak for others. BUT I would guess, those that have English as a native language use it at home and out and about when with those who also speak the language fluently. If they visit a restaurant or any other business establishment I am sure most attempt Spanglish unless they are fluent in Spanish, while a small amount use English and sign language.


I belong to a third group: semi-retired and working part-time. Since most of my work is teaching English, I speak English at work and with ****** friends (mostly Americans and Canadians), unless the group includes non-English speaking Mexicans. I live alone, so I speak English while at home, though I do sometimes find myself talking to myself in a mixture of English and Spanish! Out and about in my neighborhood, I almost exclusively speak Spanish to neighbors and while patronizing local restaurants and stores.


----------



## mickisue1

What's funny is that, if you take the time to learn a little, it can add greatly to your experience.

Visiting my daughter, and knowing that one can walk into a bar (where espresso is consumed more than alcohol) and say, with a question in your voice, "Il bano?" and "Grazie." when they point you in the right direction is freeing.


----------



## GARYJ65

mickisue1 said:


> What's funny is that, if you take the time to learn a little, it can add greatly to your experience.
> 
> Visiting my daughter, and knowing that one can walk into a bar (where espresso is consumed more than alcohol) and say, with a question in your voice, "Il bano?" and "Grazie." when they point you in the right direction is freeing.


Was this in italian?


----------



## johnmex

gudgrief said:


> When I worked for GM in Ramos Arizpe, there were more than a few gringos who could not get anything out of a meeting in Spanish. The daily Production Manager's meeting and weekly Plant Manager's meetings were in English. Even at headquarters in Mexico, English ruled except at the middle management level where a single ****** was meeting with several Mexicans.
> 
> That was 1982-1985. I wonder if it has changed.


No, it has not.


----------

