# Rent is how much?!!!



## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

Hi guys

Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously but I'm new here. 

We are thinking of moving to Dubai but I've had a quick scout around on the internet at rental property and it's extortionately expensive! In the UK we live in a good sized 4 bed detached house but to afford something similar in Dubai (to rent) would be thousands a month!

How can anyone afford to live there? There would be myself, my husband and our two children so we'd have school fees to pay too unless an employer included them as part of the salary package. My husband is an accountant so I would hope he would get a decent salary in Dubai like here but if rental property is really that expensive I don't know if we could afford to move or if it's even worth it!

Any advice anyone can give me regarding rental prices would be greatly appreciated. Is it REALLY that expensive??


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

It's quite simple really. 

If you are coming from Europe you just don't come here unless your prospective employer is offering you at least 50k schooling for each kid and at least 210k housing allowance on top of your wages. 
There are people on here who have to survive on way less and for that I'm sorry but if you are coming from somewhere in the first world that us what I consider the absolute minimum.


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

Thanks for the quick reply! 

So basically it has to be a pretty good overall package with a substantial allowance for rent, schooling etc?

I wasn't sure how much companies would be prepared to pay for things like that. I certainly wouldn't move to be worse off than we are now!


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Thanks for the quick reply!
> 
> So basically it has to be a pretty good overall package with a substantial allowance for rent, schooling etc?
> 
> I wasn't sure how much companies would be prepared to pay for things like that. I certainly wouldn't move to be worse off than we are now!


Living expenses are certainly high here.
In addition - what special attributes does your husband have that would make him attractive to an employer here - so that he could earn a decent salary?
Standard accountants are easy to find and employ here - with highly qualified accountants available from other countries that would accept lower packages than UK expats would expect.
Cheers
Steve


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

Not really sure what would be classed as a special attribute that would set him aside!

With living costs so high there it's beginning to seem like we'd be better off here :-(

His current job means he's away from home pretty much Sunday night to Friday night (made redundant from previous job so had to take this one) but there are so few jobs available in the UK at his level (Finance Director). We are just fed up of our family being separated and after 15 months of living like this we have had to start looking further afield in the job market. UK is dead when it comes to finding jobs.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Not really sure what would be classed as a special attribute that would set him aside!
> 
> With living costs so high there it's beginning to seem like we'd be better off here :-(
> 
> His current job means he's away from home pretty much Sunday night to Friday night (made redundant from previous job so had to take this one) but there are so few jobs available in the UK at his level (Finance Director). We are just fed up of our family being separated and after 15 months of living like this we have had to start looking further afield in the job market. UK is dead when it comes to finding jobs.


Yes - we were the same, I was commuting 130 miles each way between home and work for 3 years - so know how you feel!
Problem is, with Europe so depressed - a lot of people have the same idea as you to try and get work in countries with better economic conditions.
Jobs can therefore be pretty hard to find here and competition can be fierce.
We came here with my wife's job and it took me nearly 4 months to find a job - and that is whilst actually being here (it is obviously more difficult from afar).

Best of luck with your job hunting!
Cheers
Steve


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

I heard that's why the rent had soared there due to the rapidly expanding population outstripping supply.

Thanks Steve, fingers crossed that something comes up (he has a telephone interview next week) and that if he does find something it's enough for us to survive on so we can actually live together as a family


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

MillyMolly said:


> Not really sure what would be classed as a special attribute that would set him aside!
> 
> With living costs so high there it's beginning to seem like we'd be better off here :-(
> 
> His current job means he's away from home pretty much Sunday night to Friday night (made redundant from previous job so had to take this one) but there are so few jobs available in the UK at his level (Finance Director). We are just fed up of our family being separated and after 15 months of living like this we have had to start looking further afield in the job market. UK is dead when it comes to finding jobs.


If he is looking at CFO level then it is possible to get a decent income here


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

He's a Finance Director here. If the salary/package is good enough then that's all we need


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## fcjb1970 (Apr 30, 2010)

MillyMolly said:


> I heard that's why the rent had soared there due to the rapidly expanding population outstripping supply.


Rental/housing prices in Dubai are not driven by supply and demand. It is hard to explain what is really drives prices up but it all based on speculation. At some point there will be another bubble burst, there is oversupply and salaries are not going up at some point it will have to correct (but I doubt soon enough for me)


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## Robbo5265 (Oct 23, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously but I'm new here.
> 
> ...


Currently live in a three bedroomed furnished apartment, (with a maids room) at Rimal JBR. It cost us AED 180,000 for the years rental and approx another AED 22,000 for cooling, water, electricity, and broadband/tv. We are moving out in November as the noise from the building site on the new beach mall is too much and is 24 hrs, but the landlord is happy enough as he had said that he will put rental up to AED 200,000!!!


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

There are large 4 bed villas in Jumeriah for 125-130k within walking distance to the beach.

Places like Mirdiff you can live in big 4 bed family homes for 100 - 110k

Properties on Dubizzle are generally over inflated and if you make the effort to both really look and avoid what's fashionable then you can get a bit more value for money.

No offence Robbo, but I wouldn't pay 60k to live in a flat in JBR


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## ziokendo (Jan 7, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously but I'm new here.
> 
> We are thinking of moving to Dubai but I've had a quick scout around on the internet at rental property and it's extortionately expensive!


Dubai is a big city, it's still not on the level of London or Manhattan or Hong Kong, but its rent aren't neither. Rent/salary ratio is similar or better of most other regional business hubs.

And you cannot compare one of the aforementioned city salary/rent ratios to the english suburbia anyway.

How much would it cost a NW3/NW6 4br townhouse in London tax included, that is still a - say - 30/40 min tube commute to downtown ?

In Dubai a good option at 40 min car commute from the main business hubs will be less, don't worry.


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## mac86 (Mar 14, 2013)

Anyone else think the papers don't help?? Every other day The National seems to have a headline saying "Rent's going up"... what does every private landlord do then?? Put up the prices! Damn papers... ;-)


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

mac86 said:


> Anyone else think the papers don't help?? Every other day The National seems to have a headline saying "Rent's going up"... what does every private landlord do then?? Put up the prices! Damn papers... ;-)


There is a drive to artificially inflate the rental market and it's not helping, no. Especially with single owner, landlords that are in negative equity from the last property boom and not the sharpest tools in the box to begin with.

The agents are pushing it as we're in the final quarter and anything rented now is in the end of year commision/bonus.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Dubai has around 30% vacancy rates for its residential sector, which is very high given how expensive rents are now becoming. London doesn't. 

You're right Dubai is not London but Dubai still doesn't make sense, nor does the huge escalation in rents in the past year alone have any meaningful explanation. While the economy has rebounded somewhat following the 2008-2009 crash, I'm still not seeing evidence of a huge explosion in the employment market or lots of people getting big salary raises that would justify the increasing rents. 

My conclusion is that people think since it's a 'tax free' income they allow themselves to justify spending 40-50% of their total income on rent by saying, oh well, at least we're not paying taxes. But when they spend that much money on rent it defeats the tax savings argument for coming to Dubai. Then there's quite a few people in Dubai who want the 'lifestyle' and are willing to spend their entire income on flashy apartments and cars and clothes/brunches and leave after a few years with minimal savings. London has *serious* wealth and has become the centre hub for the global genuinely rich. Dubai has some wealth but most of what we see is pretense wealth. 

'Rent/salary ratio is similar or better of most other regional business hubs.' 

Is this anecdotal or based on hardcore statistics? 



ziokendo said:


> Dubai is a big city, it's still not on the level of London or Manhattan or Hong Kong, but its rent aren't neither. Rent/salary ratio is similar or better of most other regional business hubs.
> 
> And you cannot compare one of the aforementioned city salary/rent ratios to the english suburbia anyway.
> 
> ...


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## Jumeirah Jim (Jan 24, 2011)

If the OP is comparing rents in North East England (where I assume she would be moving from by her profile) then Dubai is going to seem very expensive. If moving from many parts of London or its commuter belt then Dubai is still good value for the size (if not the quality) of the villas/apartments you get, almost always within a pretty easy (30 min drive) commute to most workplaces and often gyms/pools etc included. 

As others have said you would expect a very substantial pay rise moving from NE England to Dubai, even before factoring in the tax saving. The cost of living for many things (certainly not all things) is higher in Dubai than say Newcastle. 

Overall I'd say Dubai costs (school fees excepted as they are optional in the UK), if you are sensible and shop around (as most people in the UK are but few are here), are comparable to living in the Home Counties/outer suburbs of London. 

Yes some things are a lot more here but many other things are very cheap by UK standards. Taxis, cigarettes and cleaners immediately spring to my mind


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## Jumeirah Jim (Jan 24, 2011)

TallyHo said:


> My conclusion is that people think since it's a 'tax free' income they allow themselves to justify spending 40-50% of their total income on rent by saying, oh well, at least we're not paying taxes. But when they spend that much money on rent it defeats the tax savings argument for coming to Dubai. Then there's quite a few people in Dubai who want the 'lifestyle' and are willing to spend their entire income on flashy apartments and cars and clothes/brunches and leave after a few years with minimal savings. London has *serious* wealth and has become the centre hub for the global genuinely rich. Dubai has some wealth but most of what we see is pretense wealth.



I think this is very true. Most of us move here thinking it will only be for a couple of years or so, we want to enjoy life here and have a good time etc etc

It then gets very easy to be drawn into a vicious cycle where you take the tax saving for granted and spend beyond what you should. All your mates / colleagues do similar and so it goes on...

That was my experience living in Dubai pre and post the '08 crash. It now seems to be happening all over again with some of the new faces in Dubai...

What a lot of people forget when they moved here was that they planned to save all that extra income for the future. With no pensions here that is really important (I'm not an IFA by the way)

I'll admit in my first 3 years in Dubai I saved almost nothing despite a big pay rise on moving from the UK plus the tax saving. Fortunately I now live in AD where there's less stuff to tempt me


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## ziokendo (Jan 7, 2012)

TallyHo said:


> Dubai has around 30% vacancy rates for its residential sector, which is very high given how expensive rents are now becoming.


I fundamentally agree with you, but you cannot compare developing and developed economies in the way the supply-demand mechanism will adjust price.

If you think about it here on one hand (demand) you have a continuos supply of newcomers to the market: especially in their first year or two we might make bad decisions for two reason 1) money perception, we feel richer 2) lack of information, we want to minimize the hassle and we pay the price for it.

On the supply hand arguably you have at least three factors : 
1) rational fixed income landlords, they want to rent and they know they need to recover their investment very fast because the evolution of the market and the low quality of their building might make these obsolete in 15-20 years versus at least 50 years useful life of a building in Europe, plus they need to pay huge service charges to the developer and they have zero control over an uncertain regulatory environment.
2) rational speculative (capital gain) landlords: in their mind the economic loss of keeping the apartment empty is less important because they expect to sell in a few months
3) irrational landlords, maybe they live out of the country, they read the papers and they trust estate agents.

On top of this you need to consider other factors that you are overlooking, which is the infrastructure, what is the distribution of the vacancies ? it might be 30% but where ? I bet the good developments in easily reachable and infrastructure rich location have only a frictional vacancy component while the newest development without infrastructures (sports city, impz, jvc) have the biggest share.



> Then there's quite a few people in Dubai who want the 'lifestyle' and are willing to spend their entire income on flashy apartments and cars and clothes/brunches and leave after a few years with minimal savings.


Ditto.

But see all your arguments are whether the price are "fair", and I agree with you, while mine point was whether the price are a bit "rational" 



> <<'Rent/salary ratio is similar or better of most other regional business hubs.' >>
> 
> Is this anecdotal or based on hardcore statistics?


Is based only on anedoctal comparison of my experience in Rome, London, Dubai along with the experience of a couple of friend, one in NY the other in HK.

Mind you in most of these cities square footage is at a huge premium, which is not the case in dubai, so probably if they made hardcore statistics Dubai would come out even better, imagine a 100sqm apartment with pool and reserved parking spot in rome, in downtown manhattan, in canary wharf or hong kong ML !


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## ziokendo (Jan 7, 2012)

Jumeirah Jim said:


> That was my experience living in Dubai pre and post the '08 crash. It now seems to be happening all over again with some of the new faces in Dubai...
> 
> What a lot of people forget when they moved here was that they planned to save all that extra income for the future. With no pensions here that is really important (I'm not an IFA by the way)
> 
> I'll admit in my first 3 years in Dubai I saved almost nothing despite a big pay rise on moving from the UK plus the tax saving. Fortunately I now live in AD where there's less stuff to tempt me


Absolutely true .

On a side note, we like to claim we make rational choices and all, and that the rent situation is ridiculous and driven by "the others, the fools" that pay 200k for a 2br flat in JBR but then - honestly - since we are so smart why we aren't all living in 5BR independent villas in Ajman and Sharjah to rent for 40-50k aed per year ?

Probably for us an extra 1,5 hours a day in the traffic is worth more than the 10k aed saving per month that we would get compared to renting a similar villa in Dubai? 

If they offered you 10 k aed more per month would you be willing to work 2 extra hours a day ?


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## voipkid (Aug 30, 2013)

Putting expectations aside as I haven't moved out to Dubai yet. But reading everyones comments its horses for courses.

For example: I have just turned 40, divorced (cleaned out) no chance of a mortgage again. Dubai can be a new start, employment permitting I am looking long term out there.

No if I was 25, I would be splashing half my wages on rent the rest on shopping and partying.

Based on the help I have had so far from this forum (thanks again by the way) I have a rough idea of rent expectations. I am budgeting mentally for 30% - 35% of my wage for rent in Dubai.

I don't drink, I don't party any more. I am there to build a new life.

My priority is that my children back in the UK get their money and all bills paid and some savings put away. Then I will shop 

Its easy for me coming out the other end of a divorce and excessive spending for years. I simply put learnt the hard way.

Putting this into the context of Dubai or anywhere else for that matter. Everyones expectations, priorities and financial conditioning differ. It is what make us human.


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## QOFE (Apr 28, 2013)

The turnover is high here, as in a lot of people don't stay for many years. There is a constant stream of newcomers. Landlords and agencies are taking advantage of people. If only more people were aware of their rights and didn't get bullied into paying constant rises.

It helps if you have a bit more time to shop around and compare prices better as well as using a proper agency or renting directly from the landlord.
We came across all sorts of outright crooks last year. Luckily we had reserved enough time living in a hotel apartment while flat hunting and sorting out the paperwork. 

It would be a better system to have landlords paying the estate agent fees instead of the tenant and at a fixed rate rather than a percentage of the annual rent. That would sieve out a large amount of the jokers that call themselves estate agents.

I've not had high opinions of estate agents in various other countries before Dubai but the ones here are really the worst bunch I've ever come across. 
They really don't do much work for the 5% of the annual rent fee are they....

We were able to negotiate the rent and the number of cheques and looking at what the asking prices are now I feel we did quite well.


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## tootall (Aug 5, 2010)

Really great discussion in this thread, good read! 

As I am thinking of moving out of my current apartment in early 2014 do you guys have any suggestions as to how to find a good agent or listings of vacancies? Previously I have been using Dubizzle.

Jumeriah Jim - Does living in AD have anything to do with your "Expat in N. Korea" tag?


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

Felixtoo2 said:


> It's quite simple really.
> 
> If you are coming from Europe you just don't come here unless your prospective employer is offering you at least 50k schooling for each kid and *at least 210k housing allowance on top of your wages*


I don't even get paid that in a year, but admittedly I do work for a globally-known white-collar sweatshop.


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

To be honest that's why I rarely reply to anything pay related, unless its from someone in the UK. There is just such a huge disparity in pay and conditions here that what some people come to Dubai for is a lot less than others are already earning in their home countries.


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## ccr (Jun 20, 2010)

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> I don't even get paid that in a year, but admittedly I do work for a globally-known white-collar sweatshop.


Less than 210k *AED* ?

I don't believe it was in british pounds...


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

Jumeirah Jim said:


> If the OP is comparing rents in North East England (where I assume she would be moving from by her profile) then Dubai is going to seem very expensive. If moving from many parts of London or its commuter belt then Dubai is still good value for the size (if not the quality) of the villas/apartments you get, almost always within a pretty easy (30 min drive) commute to most workplaces and often gyms/pools etc included.
> 
> As others have said you would expect a very substantial pay rise moving from NE England to Dubai, even before factoring in the tax saving. The cost of living for many things (certainly not all things) is higher in Dubai than say Newcastle.
> 
> ...


Dubai is not good value compared to London, if you compare to Mayfair etc maybe. We have our UK office in Putney and colleagues (mon-fri guys) rent decent apartments for say £1,400pm or say 8,000AEDpm - hardly comparable with Dubai rents!


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

mac86 said:


> Anyone else think the papers don't help?? Every other day The National seems to have a headline saying "Rent's going up"... what does every private landlord do then?? Put up the prices! Damn papers... ;-)


The tone the papers use is that rising prices is good, which is why you see lines like "DXB/AUH benefits from rising property market".
In a society where half or more of the populace own their homes, it makes sense to cheer price rises, but when (in my guess) less than 15% of people live in properties they own, it is odd to see the cheer-leading for prices to reach 2008 levels


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## voipkid (Aug 30, 2013)

blazeaway said:


> Dubai is not good value compared to London, if you compare to Mayfair etc maybe. We have our UK office in Putney and colleagues (mon-fri guys) rent decent apartments for say £1,400pm or say 8,000AEDpm - hardly comparable with Dubai rents!


Should a monopoly on demand not warrant an increase in rent? Surely isn't this is what has happened all along in London and other major UK cities and towns especially the commuter belt.

If you was a Landlord in Dubai and you had a continious influx of workers wishing to rent, would you not put the price up to make more money?

Isn't it a simple case of supply and demand. With regards to your colleagues working in your Putney branch. They may get more for their money rent wise - but they are paying Stamp & Income tax each month, plus council tax, train fare increases, increase in crime, cold weather, (1 month of putney high street being dug up  )

Dosen't eveything even itself out?


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## Jumeirah Jim (Jan 24, 2011)

blazeaway said:


> Dubai is not good value compared to London, if you compare to Mayfair etc maybe. We have our UK office in Putney and colleagues (mon-fri guys) rent decent apartments for say £1,400pm or say 8,000AEDpm - hardly comparable with Dubai rents!



perhaps but AED 96k pa would get you a 1 bed sized (maybe a studio here but same sq ft by London standards), apartment in a very decent area. Yes not Palm Jumeriah (dire h3llhole that it is..) but a perfectly decent area. Probably in a building with a pool and gym and undergroud parking too. 

I don't think you are comparing like with like because for those kind of facilities you would pay throught the nose in SW London.


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## vantage (May 10, 2012)

Jumeirah Jim said:


> Yes not Palm Jumeriah (dire h3llhole that it is..) .


I really can't understand the appeal of that place either.


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## ziokendo (Jan 7, 2012)

Jumeirah Jim said:


> perhaps but AED 96k pa would get you a 1 bed sized (maybe a studio here but same sq ft by London standards), apartment in a very decent area. Yes not Palm Jumeriah (dire h3llhole that it is..) but a perfectly decent area. Probably in a building with a pool and gym and undergroud parking too.
> 
> I don't think you are comparing like with like because for those kind of facilities you would pay throught the nose in SW London.


I pay 30% of my salary (including housing fee) per year in 4 cheques including central a/c for my furnished 55sqm studio in DIFC with parking. It's just on top of the metro station and I have a zabeel view.

I lived in London and like for like for the same salary ratio the only thing I could afford was a room in a shared apt, and for sure there weren't soundproofed double-glazed window or other extravagant amenities :-D you had to thank it wouldn't rain inside your house.

Personally I would run back to london for the same salary I get in Dubai (even if gross of taxes when in UK, I actually liked the weather) and of course I am not comparing the wealth and the opportunities of the two cities, that would be simply ridiculous on my side, my point was just that rent to salary ratio at least for a single is still not bad (yet worsening), and Dubai is a regional business hub so you cannot compare it to newcastle indeed.

Probably even for a family used to live to "city" standards (ie I have grown up in a 2BR apartment sharing a room with my brother, not in a 3 storey villa) is still not so bad.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

ziokendo said:


> my point was just that rent to salary ratio at least for a single is still not bad (yet worsening), and Dubai is a regional business hub so you cannot compare it to newcastle indeed.
> 
> Probably even for a family used to live to "city" standards (ie I have grown up in a 2BR apartment sharing a room with my brother, not in a 3 storey villa) is still not so bad.


At the same time, there are plenty of people whose wages are not paid on the UK scale, which means they may have to spend up to 50% of their income on rent


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## ziokendo (Jan 7, 2012)

Tropicana said:


> At the same time, there are plenty of people whose wages are not paid on the UK scale, which means they may have to spend up to 50% of their income on rent


You might have a point, I don't have many example of that situation in such a detail to draw any thought about that, neither I believe it applies to the situation of the OP (wife of a finance director).

Anyway I believe that most of the people on lower salary have the option of a company accomodation : yes is a shared one, but even in Europe most of the people, especially at the beginning of their carreers are forced to do so.

The ones with a family they probably live in Sharjah or Ajman and make 2 to 3hrs of commuting each day, like in Europe/US the people living in the most outer belts of big cities like london, ny, la, paris ... with the advantage that here the fuel and the public transports are 1/5th of european price.

I don't know very well sharjah or ajman rental market, but I assume infact that those specific markets would be much more stable because arguably driven by stronger fundamentals (usually people on lower income have stable carreers paths so are long-term expats, while people on high incomes have usually different carreer paths so they stop on average 3-5 years in a place).


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

ziokendo said:


> Anyway I believe that most of the people on lower salary have the option of a company accomodation : yes is a shared one, but even in Europe most of the people, especially at the beginning of their carreers are forced to do so.
> 
> The ones with a family they probably live in Sharjah or Ajman and make 2 to 3hrs of commuting each day, like in Europe/US the people living in the most outer belts of big cities like london, ny, la, paris ... with the advantage that here the fuel and the public transports are 1/5th of european price.



I was not talking of people working in stores, restaurants etc almost all of whom get company accomodation even if their salaries are low

I am talking about the huge portion of professional or semi-professional workers making between 5k and 20k, which includes everything from accountants to engineers to teachers, and most of such people live with their families. 

If someone gets 20k, they can spend 5k a month in Sharjah housing, or they can spend 8-9k in Dubai
In the latter case, they are spending 40-45% of their incomes on rent


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

Dubai home prices 31% off 2008 peak rates | GulfNews.com

It does not help when print media claims it is not a bubble based on the fact that prices are lower than peak 2008 prices, as if that is a standard to aspire to
Then you read that somewhere in the article, a buried line states that the "study" was conducted by a property leasing company


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## crt454 (Sep 3, 2012)

Stevesolar said:


> Yes - we were the same, I was commuting 130 miles each way between home and work for 3 years - so know how you feel!
> Problem is, with Europe so depressed - a lot of people have the same idea as you to try and get work in countries with better economic conditions.
> Jobs can therefore be pretty hard to find here and competition can be fierce.
> We came here with my wife's job and it took me nearly 4 months to find a job - and that is whilst actually being here (it is obviously more difficult from afar).
> ...


wow 260 miles round trip, that's INSANE!!


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

crt454 said:


> wow 260 miles round trip, that's INSANE!!


Yes - that was why we ended up here! 
Possibly more insane??

Cheers
Steve


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

Wow quite a discussion going now! Thanks for all the info/points of view 

So much to think about, my head is bursting 

It's true that as we don't live in london we aren't used to the ridiculous prices for property there (although we still have a hefty mortgage here!) so looking at Dubai property was quite a shock. Plus all the extras like utilities will add up.

We aren't moving however for a 'flashy' lifestyle, we would be moving purely to live a relatively comfortable existence together as a family (as OH was forced to work away this is the main driving force to move).

We considered Australia, well I did as he never fancied it, but his accountancy qualification isn't recognised there and he'd have to undertake further study to qualify. After studying here (4 years at uni followed by another 4 to become chartered he's had enough with study) so Oz was out. Sadly. Next place to consider was Dubai. If this doesn't come off we could be looking at Scotland (noooooo too bloody cold!) or anywhere in the UK where there are bloody jobs!! 

There is nothing in the NE for him job wise at the moment. So lots to consider, do we sit tight and hope something comes up soon (been living like this for 15 months and no sign or sniff of a job at all) or do we take the plunge and jump so we can all be together? 

Anyway thanks guys for your input, really appreciated! I am sure there may be more questions that will arise in the near future should we continue to pursue the Dubai route


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## vantage (May 10, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Sadly. Next place to consider was Dubai. If this doesn't come off we could be looking at Scotland (noooooo too bloody cold!)


you're from the North East!

given the choice between Scotland and the North East...... I'd hit Scotland!
Not discernibly any colder at all, really, at least in the Central Belt.

I'd take a Scottish winter over a Dubai summer any day!


good luck! However much research you do, it is always going to be a jump into the unknown one way or another!


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

Haha true and as we're over 800ft above sea level we get harsh winters! Long, cold and far too much snow :-(

OH is from Scotland originally hence why if Dubai doesn't happen we may head that way. Are Dubai summers unbearable? 

Cheers Vantage  Yes that's true and neither of us have been to Dubai before so definitely the unknown


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## BigAndyD (Apr 19, 2013)

From Consett area by any chance? Not too many populated spots in the NE at that elevation. 
:-D


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## vantage (May 10, 2012)

MillyMolly said:


> Haha true and as we're over 800ft above sea level we get harsh winters! Long, cold and far too much snow :-(
> 
> OH is from Scotland originally hence why if Dubai doesn't happen we may head that way. Are Dubai summers unbearable?
> 
> Cheers Vantage  Yes that's true and neither of us have been to Dubai before so definitely the unknown


What's the hottest you've ever been exposed to on holiday?
Perhaps the odd day peaking at 40 degrees?

Here we get at least a three month period of sustained temps over 40, peaking at 50.
These are temps in the shade.
Not a great deal of relief at night, as it only drops to mid-30's or so.

The winter, though, is great!


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

BigAndyD said:


> From Consett area by any chance? Not too many populated spots in the NE at that elevation.
> :-D


Yup sure am. Moved here from Chester le street 8 years ago and often wonder why haha. 

Seriously though it's lovely in the summer, winters are horrendous though (as you may know?).


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

vantage said:


> What's the hottest you've ever been exposed to on holiday?
> Perhaps the odd day peaking at 40 degrees?
> 
> Here we get at least a three month period of sustained temps over 40, peaking at 50.
> ...


About 40 ish yes on holiday. I suppose you must acclimatise to it eventually though?! Hopefully  Surely if it was that unbearable nobody would move there? And isn't absolutely everywhere (indoors) air conditioned anyway? It wouldn't put me off giving it a go that's for sure


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## BigAndyD (Apr 19, 2013)

MillyMolly said:


> Yup sure am. Moved here from Chester le street 8 years ago and often wonder why haha.
> 
> Seriously though it's lovely in the summer, winters are horrendous though (as you may know?).


Yeah, it's a place and a half :tape2: All my friends laughed at me when they heard I was moving into Hillbilly country, saying I'd never get to work because of the snow. It was only 12 inches overnight; can't see what all the fuss was about!!! 

We live in Castleside, at least for the next 5 weeks, and then it's off to the sandpit. Funnily enough, I'm also from Jockistan originally and wifey is a Smoggy.

I'll keep an ear out for a friendly Geordie accent.


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

BigAndyD said:


> Yeah, it's a place and a half :tape2: All my friends laughed at me when they heard I was moving into Hillbilly country, saying I'd never get to work because of the snow. It was only 12 inches overnight; can't see what all the fuss was about!!!
> 
> We live in Castleside, at least for the next 5 weeks, and then it's off to the sandpit. Funnily enough, I'm also from Jockistan originally and wifey is a Smoggy.
> 
> I'll keep an ear out for a friendly Geordie accent.


Ha yes a couple of years ago we got snowed in for 2 weeks. Only able to eventually move the cars because the council had to clear the road for some funeral cars to get to a house round the corner. Sick of the winters now :mmph:

Well I shall have to keep an eye out for your posts and see how things go for you! Still in the process of applying for jobs so could be a long haul before we make it there (if we do). 

Can I ask your reason for moving? How long has it all taken, from job offer to setting a date for the move?


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Felixtoo2 said:


> It's quite simple really.
> 
> If you are coming from Europe you just don't come here unless your prospective employer is offering you at least 50k schooling for each kid and at least 210k housing allowance on top of your wages.
> There are people on here who have to survive on way less and for that I'm sorry but if you are coming from somewhere in the first world that us what I consider the absolute minimum.


Sorry, but I disagree totally.

I get one figure per month made up of basic salary and allowances. Nowhere near the amount for 50k per child for schooling and certainly not 210k for housing.

Housing doesn't have to be outrageous. I am in a 3 bed townhouse paying less than 85k per year and that is after an increase. The most I have ever paid, back in 2009, was 170k in the Ranches.

There is a huge difference between surviving and keeping your feet on the ground and head out of the clouds as far as expenditure is concerned.


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## Dubai here i come! (Aug 7, 2013)

Ogri750 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree totally.
> 
> I get one figure per month made up of basic salary and allowances. Nowhere near the amount for 50k per child for schooling and certainly not 210k for housing.
> 
> ...


Roger that!


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## Rosie Lee (Sep 1, 2013)

Come to France and commute from here - Ryanair makes it affordable and you get much more for your money property wise and a better way of life for the kids ... but rural France may not be to your taste of course.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

Ogri750 said:


> Housing doesn't have to be outrageous. I am in a 3 bed townhouse paying less than 85k per year and that is after an increase. .


If that is in Dubai, you are very lucky and I'm sure 85k is far far lower than the average rent for 3 bed townhouses.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

He may have locked himself into a below average lease for one of the JVT or JVC villas when they first came onto the market and owners were desperate for tenants. I think the 3-beds were going for 75-85K back in 2010? 

If that's the case it's a scenario he can't offer to the OP who will have to pay current market rates which are at least 50K higher (minimum). 175K seems to be the average going rate for a 3-bed villa in Al Reem at Arabian Ranches. 

Anyway, if the OP lives in a comfortably sized 4-bed detached house in a good catchment area, what will it take for her to move to Dubai? There's no point coming out here to downsize into smaller quarters and send your children to inferior schools. I can see why some are saying you need X amount for school fees and X amount for housing because those are the calibre of housing and quality of schools that would be comparable to what they left behind. 

Edit: I just noticed on another thread that Ogri750 lives in JVC, so you did get a villa when they were cheap. Just as how I got my 2-bed apartment in the Fairways Towers in the Greens for under 100K back in 2010, while they're now going for 50K more. We were lucky. 



Tropicana said:


> If that is in Dubai, you are very lucky and I'm sure 85k is far far lower than the average rent for 3 bed townhouses.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

It is in Dubai, and yes it is in JVC.

Even factor in a 50k raise as someone suggested, still less than 140k. 2/3 of the 210k suggested.

The Ranches has always been a bit more on the pricey side, I lived there for 3 years so I am aware of the prices. I was paying 130k for a 2 bed in 2008.

Regardless of that, I have never had a "full expat package" (schooling and housing paid etc). I have always had an all inclusive package from which I sort everything. We do more than just survive.


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

vantage said:


> What's the hottest you've ever been exposed to on holiday?
> Perhaps the odd day peaking at 40 degrees?
> 
> Here we get at least a three month period of sustained temps over 40, peaking at 50.
> ...


It was only 34 tonight as I arrived back from the magic kingdom!


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

MillyMolly said:


> About 40 ish yes on holiday. I suppose you must acclimatise to it eventually though?! Hopefully  Surely if it was that unbearable nobody would move there? And isn't absolutely everywhere (indoors) air conditioned anyway? It wouldn't put me off giving it a go that's for sure


Well you get used to having a wet shirt just walking to your car at 7ish!


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

BigAndyD said:


> Yeah, it's a place and a half :tape2: All my friends laughed at me when they heard I was moving into Hillbilly country, saying I'd never get to work because of the snow. It was only 12 inches overnight; can't see what all the fuss was about!!!
> 
> We live in Castleside, at least for the next 5 weeks, and then it's off to the sandpit. Funnily enough, I'm also from Jockistan originally and wifey is a Smoggy.
> 
> I'll keep an ear out for a friendly Geordie accent.


Well at least no monkey hangers!


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## MillyMolly (Aug 30, 2013)

blazeaway said:


> It was only 34 tonight as I arrived back from the magic kingdom!


Only?! It is a mere 14C here tonight (10pm). Winter is a comin'!


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

Correct. One can survive on much smaller packages and even in comfort. 

But the issue remains what's comparable for the OP. To use as an extreme example it's not a good trade for a family living in a large house in Kensington or Chelsea with children in good private schools to move to Dubai only to live in a cramped townhouse and send their children to less regarded schools. Likewise for me I know what I'm worth in the UK and the lifestyle I can have and it would be pointless for me to remain in Dubai if I could only afford a cheap flat in Al Nahda or Silicon Oasis, even if the flats are perfectly fine. 

We don't know much about the OP's particular circumstances. It's fair to point out that she can find a cheaper villa in Mirdiff or the JVCs/JVTs but it's also fair to point out that if she has a certain lifestyle in the UK then perhaps a similar lifestyle in Dubai requires a package value of X amount. 



Ogri750 said:


> It is in Dubai, and yes it is in JVC.
> 
> Even factor in a 50k raise as someone suggested, still less than 140k. 2/3 of the 210k suggested.
> 
> ...


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

To be fair, if they were living in a large house in Kensington or Chelsea, the rents here would not be a shock.

Cramped? Define cramped.

As for schools, sure, spend 70k a year per child on a school and then wonder why after spending all that money the school gets "Acceptable" in the KHDA surveys.

Lifestyle is what you make it. I have a very nice lifestyle here, had a good one on the UK, but too many get caught up in the "must have a big house, flash car, latest phone, most expensive school" syndrome. Rented house, leased car, over-priced schools............keep it real and remember where you came from, don't use the maid to remind you.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

A family used to Kensington would probably be looking at budgets of 500k as comparables.

And that's the point for the OP to consider as she explores the possibility of living in Dubai. What kind of lifestyle does she currently have? What does it require, in AED, to maintain that lifestyle in Dubai? It's not always a question of how cheaply we can live in Dubai.

There's no point moving to Dubai to downgrade your lifestyle unless there's compelling reasons to do so. Someone used to a large house and excellent grammar or private schools won't want to settle for less in a move to Dubai. That's why a JVT townhouse may not work for her while it's ideal for others as it matches or is better than what they had back home.



Ogri750 said:


> To be fair, if they were living in a large house in Kensington or Chelsea, the rents here would not be a shock.
> 
> Cramped? Define cramped.
> 
> ...


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Who said it matches what I had in the UK? Difference is, my house in the UK is exactly that, my house. 

Passed the point of paying over the top rents to landlords to rent somewhere. Dead money. 

Incidentally, if they were used to paying for a place in West London, then they wouldn't baulk at rent prices here.

Surely the point of relocating is not about an exorbitant lifestyle, not for me anyway. My reason s pure and simple.. Money and how much of it I can save for when I do at some stage leave here. Oh, and to have some fun along the way. Which I certainly do


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

My turn to disagree with you Ogri, lol. 

The OP asked about a " decent sized four bed villa" and even the quickest glance at dubizzle will show that 210k is the lower end if that particular market. Factor into that a conservative yearly average of 2500/PCM for DEWA and you'll see where I'm coming from. 
We don't have kids but my companies allowance is 65k per kid although they'll only cover two. Some colleagues send their kids to an American school which is nearer 90k per year.


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## TallyHo (Aug 21, 2011)

I think you're missing the point that we're trying to make and it's the comparables. 

My point with the Kensington example is that a family used to a certain type of lifestyle would probably not be happy with a move to Dubai if they could only afford a certain type of property and the cheaper schools. They'd require a pretty lavish package to get them to leave Kensington for these blessed sand dunes.

Perhaps the Kensington family will say, wow, a great opportunity to save money and trade their 5-story London townhouse for a Mirdiff villa and pocket the differential in their housing allowance. But unless there's compelling economic reasons for the Kensington family to leave London for Dubai such as a redundancy, most are going to say thank you but no unless they can achieve a _comparable_ lifestyle out here, which I suppose would be a Palm villa and beach club membership. It's pretty hard for people, especially families, to deliberately downgrade their lifestyle unless forced to by economic necessities. 

We know nothing about the OP's position. Maybe the OP's house is four small bedrooms in a new housing estate or perhaps it's a Victorian villa with a large garden in a smart district. Perhaps the OP's husband has a good job and they save sufficiently enough while still living a nice lifestyle as per their expectations. Perhaps he's on the brink of redundancy. All these will have an impact on what they should expect and accept from a Dubai package offer. 

As already mentioned, it's perfectly fair to point out that there are cheaper areas of the city with more reasonable rents. But it's also not unreasonable to point out what the typical costs are for a 4-bedroom villa in a popular area with lots of amenities (Ranches, Meadows, Jumeira etc), as those may well be her comparables. 






Ogri750 said:


> Who said it matches what I had in the UK? Difference is, my house in the UK is exactly that, my house.
> 
> Passed the point of paying over the top rents to landlords to rent somewhere. Dead money.
> 
> ...


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## new2hope (Sep 6, 2013)

That will totally depend on you. If you want to live in luxury. It will cost more and if you are living alone you can settle 2-3 people in room including you and have low cost.


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## lumply (Jul 20, 2013)

mac86 said:


> Anyone else think the papers don't help?? Every other day The National seems to have a headline saying "Rent's going up"... what does every private landlord do then?? Put up the prices! Damn papers... ;-)


The local press look to talk up the economy, sensationalism. By headlining rents going up their interpretation is that the economy is improving. Just what the doctor ordered and we know who that is! For that reason, I too think that the local press is given a very wide berth if the real truth is of interest to most expats. Damn papers.


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## volleygurl (Jul 16, 2013)

Our employer is covering all school fees and up to 57,000 USD for rent. If you are going to be an expat here, that is very common. We wouldn't be moving without all that covered.


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## BBmover (Jun 15, 2013)

volleygurl said:


> Our employer is covering all school fees and up to 57,000 USD for rent. If you are going to be an expat here, that is very common. We wouldn't be moving without all that covered.


Fortunately for you that is a very generous package.
Unfortunately, it is not 'very' common for all!


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## volleygurl (Jul 16, 2013)

Ok maybe not "common", but common for higher end positions. I don't know anyone who had gotten an expat assignment without school being paid for and all or most of the rent paid. I have been an expat for ten years.


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## BBmover (Jun 15, 2013)

volleygurl said:


> Ok maybe not "common", but common for higher end positions. I don't know anyone who had gotten an expat assignment without school being paid for and all or most of the rent paid. I have been an expat for ten years.


Maybe for a few but becoming less and less.....not sure many on this forum would have all the school fees paid or all or most rent paid. Times are a changing and its ths logic that makes people think it is normal when there's a very different story in circles that others don't associate with.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Sadly, from what I have seen, the days of having rent and schooling covered have been and continue to dwindle. 

Why pay out the equivalent of 70k per month to an employee just so their family can be with them, when you can pay 45k and not worry if the family comes or not.

More and more positions are being advertised as single status, across the full range of positions, not just perceived lower ones.


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## IzzyBella (Mar 11, 2013)

Luckily, not all companies agree. Definitely depends on your position. Higher waged, you're fully looked after. Lower waged, your housing is usually sorted for you. Mid-level waged, you're screwed.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

volleygurl said:


> Our employer is covering all school fees and up to 57,000 USD for rent. *If you are going to be an expat here, that is very common.* We wouldn't be moving without all that covered.


Common in some companies, not in most


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## Zenettii (May 26, 2013)

volleygurl said:


> Our employer is covering all school fees and up to 57,000 USD for rent. If you are going to be an expat here, that is very common. We wouldn't be moving without all that covered.


Wow, so having just moved here last week I now feel like we have been fooled into a pathetic package or you've just be lucky in your package.

We've met a few expats in this first week here, and not a single one of them can claim ot have such a lovely package as you mention. At best you get a hotel stay while you house hunt, and then get part of your salary rebanded as "housing allowance".

We moved from west London (w5), and previously before that from Canada Water which is right next to canary wharf. One of the reasons we did this move is because London prices are climbing very fast in the last year, and it's hard to find places in the same area without seeing atleast £150-250 extra on the monthly rent. 
In W5 now, its common place for a 1 bedroom to be £1250pcm, with rubbish windows, old boilers breaking down, apartment up stairs leaking into yours, and full of drunks, druggies and homeless on your doorstep.

Dubai is expensive more so if your food shopping contains only UK recognised brands (water and yogurts are a joke!), but in comparison to London it's not much difference financially. But the quality of home materials that you get as standard here appears to be better, even if the customer service is shockingly poor from agents who all appear to never listen to you.

As new comers here, my wife and I are almost in tears trying to sort out a home. My wives company put us up in a crappy hotel in Burjuman where we get awoken by that crazy MC every morning on the mic at 4:30am. It's been a naff start to our Dubai experience, but the only way is up (roughly 30-40 floors).

The amazing thing about Dubai, is you can walk into a shop, and you'll be chased around that shop by 2-3 staff members looking to help you, its actually scary. But you go to a colleague or need some kind of paper work done (such as opening a bank account) what would normally get done there and then in UK, takes 2-4 days here, at best.


ps.
Also trying to work out if it's normal for shops to "not bother with small change" we've been let off some small change that we didn't have on us by some shops, and in others when they return change they just stick to paper notes and forget the coins! Excuse me! every little helps, Tesco says so!


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

@ Zenetti - sounds like Ealing has gone downhill somewhat then ? Just a word of advice, be very careful about making written derogatory remarks about religious aspects here, these types of of forums are monitored and it's not received well. Aside from that, if you come to live in this part of the world, it is an aspect that is part of every day life. I don't live in a high rise and have several mosques nearby and don't find them at all intrusive. It just may that the one near you has the speakers turned up full. Good luck in your new life and in finding somewhere to live. PS - it's very common here to lose a few fils in change, unfortunately, although you may be offered gum to make up for it in some cases .


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## vantage (May 10, 2012)

Zenettii said:


> . Dubai is expensive more so if your food shopping contains only UK recognised brands (water and yogurts are a joke!), !


It doesn't have to be.
Change your shopping habits.
Why buy UK brands, when you are not in the UK?
You can shop smart, and eat well here for less than your UK shopping bill if you want to.
Why are you buying bottled water in a supermarket?
Get big bottles with a cooler. Much cheaper.

All proves how important research before moving is.


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

Actually, regional dairy products here are pretty good. Well, according to my cousin, who visits here from the UK very regularly. She's here at the moment and went off to Choitrams on her own yesterday and came back about an hour and a half later because she got carried away just walking round Choits and Union looking at all the different products we have available here.


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## Zenettii (May 26, 2013)

BedouGirl said:


> @ Zenetti - sounds like Ealing has gone downhill somewhat then ? Just a word of advice, be very careful about making written derogatory remarks about religious aspects here, these types of of forums are monitored and it's not received well.


Yep Ealing is ruined, wasn't my fault! 
Yer sorry was being derogatory, just joking, we knew about the calls every morning before we came here, just didn't expect our hotel to practically be sitting on a speaker for our first week 




vantage said:


> It doesn't have to be.
> Change your shopping habits.
> Why buy UK brands, when you are not in the UK?
> You can shop smart, and eat well here for less than your UK shopping bill if you want to.
> ...


Hi Vantage,
Thanks for the advise, it is actually something we are already doing after our first 2 days. Obviously having just moved, and not having an oven at hand, we went shopping for some easy food, and first couple of shops we picked up stuff we knew/trusted. But already replacing recognised names with new ones. Being in Burjuman at the moment, we've found some cheap places to eat out with excellent food.

I can not buy one of these water coolers and massive bottle to sit on top right now for obvious reasons being in a hotel.
Despite your comment about how important you think it is to do research before moving, somethings you just don't go cold turkey on when you already have to deal with being in a hotel, new country, new job, new people.

Proves everyone is different in the way we all handle the same thing dont you think! ainkiller:


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

Zenettii said:


> Yep Ealing is ruined, wasn't my fault!  Yer sorry was being derogatory, just joking, we knew about the calls every morning before we came here, just didn't expect our hotel to practically be sitting on a speaker for our first week
> 
> Hahahahahahahahaha! But shame about Ealing really. Although I am Sarf London born and bred (Railton Road!), I spent most of my 'growing up' time in Acton, Chiswick, Hanwell and surrounding areas before moving back south of the river as a 'grown up'.
> 
> As far as the volume of the call to prayer is concerned, I believe there are legal rulings on this, but couldn't tell you what they are. It's possible, in more residential areas with lower buildings, they are not quite so loud (although I was nearly knocked off my feet by one that's on my evening walk route once!). Anyway, now you've had this experience, it's something you might not have thought about when looking for somewhere to live, so it has become one of the criteria in your search for a home.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

If you ever change your mind, we rent a flat out in Acton and routinely maintain our boiler.


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