# Clarifications on tax residence and border crossing



## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

As it looks as if they're not going to re-open my original thread, I still have some questions I need answers to (I'm here to ask questions after all). If there are people who don't want to help me out I couldn't care less, but these questions are here for those that do understand and want to help out.

I understand that it is legal to cross the border and reset my 90 days. What I don't have clarification on is under what circumstances they can refuse it even though it is a perfectly legal thing to do? What is it that would cause them to refuse something that is legal?

Forgetting to get a passport stamped? - What?

I'm also still not 100% sure about how the TAX residency works if they refused to let me apply for a tax number. As I said, I will be coming over to Spain whether they like it or not (it's my right), and as I'm registered as default in the UK, would that automatically mean I would simply pay my tax to the UK if they refuse me tax registration in Spain?

I really need answers to these questions but please try to keep strictly to what I'm asking here, I need to get this sorted out.


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

I have thought about the whole travelling thing , for me it would be a flight back to the UK so I would get my passport stamped if possible , keep all ticket stubs , receipts , booking slips in a file type thing , so that I could produce all documents if possible, sorry I don't have any more advice , I am thinking of making the move asap, good luck with it


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Are the 90 days just for Spain or Schengen in general?
Also don't you have to be gone for another 90 before that is reset?

I maybe confusing non eu citizens but the UK isn't in Schengen so I don't know.

If your passport isn't stamped then you need some other form of proof you have left the country, you can't just say you have left and a passport is the most official proof you could get.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Nugget_Hound said:


> I have thought about the whole travelling thing , for me it would be a flight back to the UK so I would get my passport stamped if possible , keep all ticket stubs , receipts , booking slips in a file type thing , so that I could produce all documents if possible, sorry I don't have any more advice , I am thinking of making the move asap, good luck with it


I'll be absolutely certain to keep proof of my departure and re-entrance dates, sure, but isn't there only a passport control for Gibraltar? I don't see border patrol of any kind between Spain/France and Spain/Portugal. How would I aquire proof for crossing those borders?





Pazcat said:


> Are the 90 days just for Spain or Schengen in general?
> Also don't you have to be gone for another 90 before that is reset?
> 
> I maybe confusing non eu citizens but the UK isn't in Schengen so I don't know.
> ...


I asked about this in the other thread and I'm told that although the UK is not Schengen, it's still part of Europe so that's all that matters. As for the proof, it's like I said to Nugget, I'd keep proof but I don't know how to do that unless it's the border with Gibraltar.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

BTW, good luck with your trip, Nugget, although depending on where abouts in Spain you're going, perhaps Gibraltar would be a cheaper and quicker option than flying back home all the time. If the impression I get about the border with Gibraltar is correct, you'll not be passing without getting your passport stamped anyway, so it sounds as if you're almost guaranteed to get your passport stamped if you used Gibraltar.

Haven't done it yet though, so don't quote me on that


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EX-1 said:


> I'll be absolutely certain to keep proof of my departure and re-entrance dates, sure, but isn't there only a passport control for Gibraltar? I don't see border patrol of any kind between Spain/France and Spain/Portugal. How would I aquire proof for crossing those borders?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you keep tickets, petrol receipts etc

as to the tax residency issue - as you know, if you're here the required number of days in a calendar year, you will be tax resident by default

but the only way to find out how to deal with that if you're travelling around, is to speak to a tax expert - & none of us here are that


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> BTW, good luck with your trip, Nugget, although depending on where abouts in Spain you're going, perhaps Gibraltar would be a cheaper and quicker option than flying back home all the time. If the impression I get about the border with Gibraltar is correct, you'll not be passing without getting your passport stamped anyway, so it sounds as if you're almost guaranteed to get your passport stamped if you used Gibraltar.
> 
> Haven't done it yet though, so don't quote me on that



I've never had my passport stamped on the Gib border - I cant imagine theres time - the queues to get in and out are usually several hours long lol. They occasionally pull vehicles over and search them, but apart from that......The passports rarely even get touched, they just glance at them and wave you on. I dont know much about other "in Europe" borders, altho friends of mine who have houses in France and Spain, dont use their passports to cross - they have French identity cards

Jo


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> you keep tickets, petrol receipts etc
> 
> as to the tax residency issue - as you know, if you're here the required number of days in a calendar year, *you will be tax resident by default*
> 
> but the only way to find out how to deal with that if you're travelling around, is to speak to a tax expert - & none of us here are that


Thanks, that's more like what I need, solid answers, I'll look into it then. At least I know I will be tax resident in Spain by default even if they refuse me (which is the part I was mainly trying to find out). If there are any tax experts here who could elaborate on the situation, that would be great too - and much appreciated.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> I've never had my passport stamped on the Gib border - I cant imagine theres time - the queues to get in and out are usually several hours long lol. They occasionally pull vehicles over and search them, but apart from that......The passports rarely even get touched, they just glance at them and wave you on. I dont know much about other "in Europe" borders, altho friends of mine who have houses in France and Spain, dont use their passports to cross - they have French identity cards
> 
> Jo


Sorry Jo, didn't see your post.

Thanks for the clarification on that, looks like it's petrol receipts and tickets even for Gibraltar then.
And don't think I haven't noticed the severe lack of kisses this time!


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## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

jojo said:


> I've never had my passport stamped on the Gib border - I cant imagine theres time - the queues to get in and out are usually several hours long lol. They occasionally pull vehicles over and search them, but apart from that......The passports rarely even get touched, they just glance at them and wave you on. I dont know much about other "in Europe" borders, altho friends of mine who have houses in France and Spain, dont use their passports to cross - they have French identity cards
> 
> Jo


When we went into Gibraltar from Spain, I'm almost certain our passports were not stamped. The only time I've ever had it stamped in Europe was when we travelled by train from Germany into the Czech Republic (In the "olden days" passports were always stamped but I think that was pre-EU). The border crossings from France into Spain don't even normally look at passports - you're just waved on. Sometimes, especially at the border at Le Perthus, there can be long queues if they're looking for someone. You do have to slow right down driving through. The Germany/France crossings I've been through are completely unmanned. There are just empty buildings by the side of the road and signs to tell you which country you're in. I've never even got my passport out of my bag there. In fact we've sometimes crossed the border without passports to go for lunch in Alsace!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I've never had my passport stamped either entering or leaving Gibraltar. And I'm not EU.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I suspect, don't know, so don't quote me, but if the authorities "think" you have been in Spain for more than 90 days, then the onus would be on you to prove otherwise, rather than, them to prove the case for.

I would have thought that the foreign office would have the answers to most of these questions, re 90 days in/out and how long out etc and how many times. Most people want to stay in Spain longer than 90 days and register so they are not looking over their shoulders at officialdom.

To be honest, if I were in your situation and lets be honest, you are trying to circumvent the 90 day rule, I would pay for proper advice - probably save you money in the long run


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

I dont think tax residence can be 'reset.' What I understand is that as long as you are in a country for x-number of days a year, you owe them. The 90 day funny business is what some non-EUs do to be in the EU. Even then, they have to do 90-in, 90-out.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Navas said:


> When we went into Gibraltar from Spain, I'm almost certain our passports were not stamped. The only time I've ever had it stamped in Europe was when we travelled by train from Germany into the Czech Republic (In the "olden days" passports were always stamped but I think that was pre-EU). The border crossings from France into Spain don't even normally look at passports - you're just waved on. Sometimes, especially at the border at Le Perthus, there can be long queues if they're looking for someone. You do have to slow right down driving through. The Germany/France crossings I've been through are completely unmanned. There are just empty buildings by the side of the road and signs to tell you which country you're in. I've never even got my passport out of my bag there. In fact we've sometimes crossed the border without passports to go for lunch in Alsace!


I must look suspicious. I have been stopped at the French border.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> I dont think tax residence can be 'reset.' What I understand is that as long as you are in a country for x-number of days a year, you owe them. The 90 day funny business is what some non-EUs do to be in the EU. Even then, they have to do 90-in, 90-out.


you don't have to register as resident if you're never here for 90 consecutive days - so you could just leave for a day & come back for infinity - as an EU citizen....

but that has nothing to do with TAX residency

that's 182+ days in a calendar year - even if you're here alternate days in & out....

for either though, as has been said - it's up to you to prove your absence, rather than for the tax office to prove your presence... guilty until you prove you're innocent, if you like


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I would like to question the term residente, the dictionary defines it so:

Que reside o vive habitualmente en un lugar determinado:

He who resides habitually at a particular place.

I would suggest that if you are a visitor and do not reside habitually in one place but travel around then no matter how long you stay you are not resident, and if you are not resident you do not need to register.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> Thanks, that's more like what I need, solid answers, I'll look into it then. At least I know I will be tax resident in Spain by default even if they refuse me (which is the part I was mainly trying to find out). If there are any tax experts here who could elaborate on the situation, that would be great too - and much appreciated.


That is actually what I told you some time ago.
As regards tax residency you can actually be here for 12 months and not qualify for tax residency. I know you want to, but thats just making it clear. July year one to June year 2 means you are not tax resident in two separate years





kalohi said:


> I've never had my passport stamped either entering or leaving Gibraltar. And I'm not EU.


There is often no one there at many of the borders. I dont know about Gibraltar, but at La Jonquera (Spain/France) its like a dual carriageway.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I would like to question the term residente, the dictionary defines it so:
> 
> Que reside o vive habitualmente en un lugar determinado:
> 
> ...


you need to question it with the various governments then 

it really doesn't matter what the dictionary says.............


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> you need to question it with the various governments then
> 
> it really doesn't matter what the dictionary says.............


To the contrary.............

Often when making an act and section, the dictionary is first consulted for the definitions and interpretation of words therein. That is why I am questioning the definition of resident, I was hoping that those who have quoted their own interpretation of the said legislation, may have read or researched the said modulo or enactment.

I for one haven't been able to find where the act is kept, I can find reference to the rules on the Policia National site, but the definition of the term "Resident" is not there.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for the replies, it looks as if things are starting to fall into place.

There's still something I am unsure about so I'll try my best to be as clear about it as possible. First of all, the border crossing question can be considered answered and fully understood now, cheers! That at least is pretty much as I expected it would be considering we're talking about borders between countries that are all part of the EU. Bottom line is, there _is_ no problem there. Also, I think the practice of them not stamping your passport is normal under the circumstances and is actually more a blessing than a curse!

So, one down, one to go.

It's regards the tax residency, and yes, Strav did point it out to me and I _do_ appreciate it. However, the answers seem to be based on the assumption that I want to avoid becoming tax resident, but as I've said time and time again, that simply is _not_ true!

I _want_ to become tax resident if at all possible, because if I'm tax resident in Spain I think that would surely be in my favour when further down the line, I apply for permanent residency. And here's the thing, *how is automatic tax residency going to be possible under my circumstances*. The part people seem to be ignoring is that I will be over there on 90 day visits _because_ I don't meet the minimum income requirement. And _because_ I don't meet the minimum income requirement they will _not_ give me an NIE. And without an NIE how on earth can I be made tax resident? The NIE would be tied to my tax, but I won't _have_ an NIE so how can I be made tax resident automatically without one?

That's the bit I cannot grasp!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EX-1 said:


> Thanks to everyone for the replies, it looks as if things are starting to fall into place.
> 
> There's still something I am unsure about so I'll try my best to be as clear about it as possible. First of all, the border crossing question can be considered answered and fully understood now, cheers! That at least is pretty much as I expected it would be considering we're talking about borders between countries that are all part of the EU. Bottom line is, there _is_ no problem there. Also, I think the practice of them not stamping your passport is normal under the circumstances and is actually more a blessing than a curse!
> 
> ...


you really need professional advice - I suspect this one might even try the ingenuity of a tax expert...


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> you really need professional advice - I suspect this one might even try the ingenuity of a tax expert...


I think you're right, although I won't be paying for legal advice, money is too tight. I'll just have to hope someone who's done this already spots the thread and explains how it works. But if not, all I'll have do is spend more time in France and Portugal too, at least that way I can be sure where my tax residency would be (it would remain as it is now) because I wouldn't hit the 183 day rule in either country.


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

EX-1 said:


> I don't meet the minimum income requirement they will _not_ give me an NIE. !


I did not think you had to prove income to get a NIE? To comply with the 90 day rule yes, but just for a NIE? 

You do not even have to visit Spain to get a Spanish NIE you can get them from an overseas consulate or even online. 

I may be wrong, and no doubt someone will put me right, but I thought it was possible to get an NIE with an EX15 form.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> I did not think you had to prove income to get a NIE? To comply with the 90 day rule yes, but just for a NIE?
> 
> You do not even have to visit Spain to get a Spanish NIE you can get them from an overseas consulate or even online.
> 
> I may be wrong, and no doubt someone will put me right, but I thought it was possible to get an NIE with an EX15 form.


you're right - you just have to have a reason to have one..... no income or healthcare requirement at all

an address is required though - & the OP intends to live wherever he stops, in his campervan....


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> you're right - you just have to have a reason to have one..... no income or healthcare requirement at all
> 
> an address is required though - & the OP intends to live wherever he stops, in his campervan....


Is that not a good enough reason then?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> Is that not a good enough reason then?


I'd have thought wanting to be tax resident was good enough reason 

as said (several times, by several of us) he really needs professional advice on this.............


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

chris&vicky said:


> Is that not a good enough reason then?


Indeed, you'd think so, wouldn't you 



xabiachica said:


> I'd have thought wanting to be tax resident was good enough reason
> 
> as said (several times, by several of us) he really needs professional advice on this.............


I could be wrong but I get the feeling you might have missed post 22


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EX-1 said:


> Indeed, you'd think so, wouldn't you
> 
> 
> I could be wrong but I get the feeling you might have missed post 22


aahhhh

yes, I did miss it

- but even if someone has done it, chances are things have changed.... or they might not have done it right...

lots of offshore workers for example have moved here - their mates had told them that since they weren't here enough days they didn't have to declare for tax.............

for a single person, that would fine..... but not for someone with a family living here - one family didn't believe us at first when we told them it was different & were all but ready to pack - then they decided that they _would _just check with a professional.... & saved themselves a fortune in moving costs & tax


what I'm trying to say, is you _might _find someone who is doing it right now & doing it properly.........

but that's no replacement for professional advice - & a one-off appointment with a good gestor needn't cost all that much


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

It's really simple for him to get an NIE;

Apply for NIE in usual way
Use any old excuse - say you are thinking of buying some land or a holiday home
Use your address in UK - you don't need an address in Spain.

Your NIE is also your NIF (tax number!).

And that's it. Once you have been here for 182 days in a calendar year, then you are legally bound to submit a tax return for the appropriate tax year.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> It's really simple for him to get an NIE;
> 
> Apply for NIE in usual way
> Use any old excuse - say you are thinking of buying some land or a holiday home
> ...



:fingerscrossed: that should work........

unless they ask for proof that he's actually buying a property........... I have heard that some offices are wanting proof

equally - he could even get a NIE via the Spanish Consulate in the UK...


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> Thanks to everyone for the replies, it looks as if things are starting to fall into place.
> 
> There's still something I am unsure about so I'll try my best to be as clear about it as possible. First of all, the border crossing question can be considered answered and fully understood now, cheers! That at least is pretty much as I expected it would be considering we're talking about borders between countries that are all part of the EU. Bottom line is, there _is_ no problem there. Also, I think the practice of them not stamping your passport is normal under the circumstances and is actually more a blessing than a curse!
> 
> ...





snikpoh said:


> It's really simple for him to get an NIE;
> 
> Apply for NIE in usual way
> Use any old excuse - say you are thinking of buying some land or a holiday home
> ...



Indeed, the only question being now is what Spanish address would he use for his tax return?


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> It's really simple for him to get an NIE;
> 
> Apply for NIE in usual way
> Use any old excuse - say you are thinking of buying some land or a holiday home
> ...


Well I like the sound of that, and the desire to look for property would be true anyway 

Can't remember what thread I said it in, but the idea is that although I'm over there to explore and get a feel for the place, one of the benefits of that is that if I came across something _really_ cheap (maybe an old ruin or some rustic land) in an area I like the feel of, then I'd buy it if I could afford it.




xabiachica said:


> :fingerscrossed: that should work........
> 
> unless they ask for proof that he's actually buying a property........... I have heard that some offices are wanting proof
> 
> equally - he could even get a NIE via the Spanish Consulate in the UK...


I like the sound of that as well 

So if I'm able to get an NIE before I leave (with a bit of luck), it looks like the only remaining question now is the one Strav just mentioned, which Spanish address would I use for a tax return?




Stravinsky said:


> Indeed, the only question being now is what Spanish address would he use for his tax return?


As it's just a tax return and not something for proof of address, wouldn't I just be able to use a mail drop address for that? :fingerscrossed:


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> Well I like the sound of that, and the desire to look for property would be true anyway
> 
> Can't remember what thread I said it in, but the idea is that although I'm over there to explore and get a feel for the place, one of the benefits of that is that if I came across something _really_ cheap (maybe an old ruin or some rustic land) in an area I like the feel of, then I'd buy it if I could afford it.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you cant just walk in off the street and make a tax return. Apart from our NIE's, our address details were required because not only do the Spanish want your tax, they want details of who you are and where you are as well  Also your bank account details of course.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> I'm afraid you cant just walk in off the street and make a tax return. Apart from our NIE's, our address details were required because not only do the Spanish want your tax, they want details of who you are and where you are as well  Also your bank account details of course.


But they'd already _have_ an address so they'll already know who I am. I'm sure the beurocracy involved in getting the NIE in the first place will see to it that they get a proper address. If I'm allowed to set up an NIE with my address in England (and my NIE is linked to my NIF) then surely they already _have_ an address? A tax return is just that, it's something people do when the time comes, there's no rule about having to be 'home' at a specific address when you're due to complete one. People are free to be anywhere in the world when they do one, and they are free to receive coresspondace to an address of their choosing. This is the first I've heard of it if that is not the case.

A bank should be no problem because I already have one in England, and if I can get an NIE as easy as it sounds, I would also be able to open one in Spain (as far as I'm aware). But like I said before, if it comes down to some beurocratic crap from Spain stopping me from registering, I'll simply spend extra time in France and Portugal so that I don't fall under the 183 day requirement. As I've said before, the _only_ people who will lose due to Spanish beaurocracy, _are_ the Spanish beaurocracy.

Beurocracy will simply cost them any tax they would otherwise have received, it's that simple. I'm not _that_ bothered where my tax gets paid as long as it gets paid to where I'm legally required to pay it. I would _prefer_ it to be Spain, but either way I won't be losing sleep over it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> But they'd already _have_ an address so they'll already know who I am. I'm sure the beurocracy involved in getting the NIE in the first place will see to it that they get a proper address. If I'm allowed to set up an NIE with my address in England (and my NIE is linked to my NIF) then surely they already _have_ an address? A tax return is just that, it's something people do when the time comes, there's no rule about having to be 'home' at a specific address when you're due to complete one. People are free to be anywhere in the world when they do one, and they are free to receive coresspondace to an address of their choosing. This is the first I've heard of it if that is not the case.
> 
> A bank should be no problem because I already have one in England, and if I can get an NIE as easy as it sounds, I would also be able to open one in Spain (as far as I'm aware). But like I said before, if it comes down to some beurocratic crap from Spain stopping me from registering, I'll simply spend extra time in France and Portugal so that I don't fall under the 183 day requirement. As I've said before, the _only_ people who will lose due to Spanish beaurocracy, _are_ the Spanish beaurocracy.
> 
> Beurocracy will simply cost them any tax they would otherwise have received, it's that simple. I'm not _that_ bothered where my tax gets paid as long as it gets paid to where I'm legally required to pay it. I would _prefer_ it to be Spain, but either way I won't be losing sleep over it.


Its my understanding that you must give a Spanish address for your NIE number - we had to and a friend of mine, who applied for hers in the UK had to give a Spanish address for them to send it to her - altho that was in the days before you had to prove an income and health care provision to obtain a residency. The Spanish bank account can be be opened, but unless you have a spanish address, it will have to be a special "non resident" account. Now, when we had one, we received a letter from the guardia and the bank after six months telling us that unless we changed to a residents account then we would be fined????? Because my husband commuted and was therefore in the UK more than Spain, he closed his account - I, as a resident, had the Spanish one. 

Unfortunately, Spain dont make things easy and their bureaucracy is a minefield and they simply dont care about the "ifs" or the "buts". Its their way or no way and they dont think twice about being PC or fair about it. Thats the point that we've been trying to make - its nothing like the UK - its tough and theres no-one to make it easy!!

Jo xxx


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Opening a non-resident account in Spain cost me something like 15€ a quarter. 

Without an address, what is your healthcare plan? 

Best of luck on essentially becoming stateless.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jojo said:


> Its my understanding that you must give a Spanish address for your NIE number - we had to and a friend of mine, who applied for hers in the UK had to give a Spanish address for them to send it to her -
> 
> ...
> 
> Jo xxx



I know logic and Spain don't normally appear in the same sentence, but this can't be correct.

If I need an NIE to buy a property (that is, BEFORE I have an address), then how can I give an address?

Also, if you get one in UK, how could you give an address whilst still resident in UK?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I know logic and Spain don't normally appear in the same sentence, but this can't be correct.
> 
> If I need an NIE to buy a property (that is, BEFORE I have an address), then how can I give an address?
> 
> Also, if you get one in UK, how could you give an address whilst still resident in UK?


I think you're right - it probably depends on the reason you give to get the number...

if jojo's friend was applying in order to move to Spain - & don't forget that this was before the rule changes - maybe that's why they wanted a Spanish address...

I've helped others fill the forms in in the past so that they could inherit property - they had addresses in as far flung places as New Zealand...


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> But they'd already _have_ an address so they'll already know who I am. I'm sure the beurocracy involved in getting the NIE in the first place will see to it that they get a proper address. If I'm allowed to set up an NIE with my address in England (and my NIE is linked to my NIF) then surely they already _have_ an address? A tax return is just that, it's something people do when the time comes, there's no rule about having to be 'home' at a specific address when you're due to complete one. People are free to be anywhere in the world when they do one, and they are free to receive coresspondace to an address of their choosing. This is the first I've heard of it if that is not the case.
> 
> A bank should be no problem because I already have one in England, and if I can get an NIE as easy as it sounds, I would also be able to open one in Spain (as far as I'm aware). But like I said before, if it comes down to some beurocratic crap from Spain stopping me from registering, I'll simply spend extra time in France and Portugal so that I don't fall under the 183 day requirement. As I've said before, the _only_ people who will lose due to Spanish beaurocracy, _are_ the Spanish beaurocracy.
> 
> Beurocracy will simply cost them any tax they would otherwise have received, it's that simple. I'm not _that_ bothered where my tax gets paid as long as it gets paid to where I'm legally required to pay it. I would _prefer_ it to be Spain, but either way I won't be losing sleep over it.


Please .... dont shoot the messenger again 

When completing the 6 or 7 tax returns we have done over the years, we were required to give our permanent Spanish address because if we were submitting a tax return then we were obviously Spanish residents and had an address somewhere.

Re: The Bank account, we used our solicitors address when we moved here, although I am sure we could have opened one with a UK address. Having said that, its nigh on impossible to open a UK bank account if you reside in Spain and have a Spanish address. For our NIE we also used our solicitors address.

I'm not sure where you have got the " there's no rule about having to be 'home' at a specific address when you're due to complete one. People are free to be anywhere in the world when they do one, and they are free to receive coresspondace to an address of their choosing" from. Laws and rules are different in different countries I'm afraid regrettably you have to live by the rules of the country you live in, however stupid some of them may be.


As regards "Bureaucracy will simply cost them any tax they would otherwise have received, it's that simple" ......... well, you're right. Presently the Spanish are pushing through legislation that prohibits home owners from renting their properties out for less than a month. If they get it through, then that means that the tax that would have been declared on that income (which they are no longer allowed to get) in Spain will simply disappear. People who were relying on that income to maintain their homes here will in many cases decide to sell up, and the income they were spending in Spain will disappear. Maybe that give you an idea of how stupid some of the Spanish ideas are.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> But they'd already _have_ an address so they'll already know who I am. I'm sure the beurocracy involved in getting the NIE in the first place will see to it that they get a proper address. If I'm allowed to set up an NIE with my address in England (and my NIE is linked to my NIF) then surely they already _have_ an address? A tax return is just that, it's something people do when the time comes, there's no rule about having to be 'home' at a specific address when you're due to complete one. People are free to be anywhere in the world when they do one, and they are free to receive coresspondace to an address of their choosing. This is the first I've heard of it if that is not the case.
> 
> A bank should be no problem because I already have one in England, and if I can get an NIE as easy as it sounds, I would also be able to open one in Spain (as far as I'm aware). But like I said before, if it comes down to some beurocratic crap from Spain stopping me from registering, I'll simply spend extra time in France and Portugal so that I don't fall under the 183 day requirement. As I've said before, the _only_ people who will lose due to Spanish beaurocracy, _are_ the Spanish beaurocracy.
> 
> Beurocracy will simply cost them any tax they would otherwise have received, it's that simple. I'm not _that_ bothered where my tax gets paid as long as it gets paid to where I'm legally required to pay it. I would _prefer_ it to be Spain, but either way I won't be losing sleep over it.



I explained in the closed thread that before you become Spanish tax resident, you have to satisfy HMRC that you are no longer UK tax resident. I won't repeat all the scenarios here, you can go back and read them- but how are you going to prove to them that you are no longer UK tax resident if you have a UK address and bank, with no Spanish address, no Spanish bank, no Spanish work contract, no Spanish self employment?

You are still clutching at the little bits that suit you. As has been pointed out you can not just walk in and demand to be Spanish tax resident and say to hell with them , when they refuse you. You would still be UK resident in that scenario.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

this thread, as with the other one, does appear to be going around in circles.

I suggest that the OP......does what ever he wants to do, come over, don't come over, be a tax resident, don't be a resident. Whatever. Once he (OP) has been here and got in place his taxes, non residency he can post a thread telling everyone who is already there, how it is done
Goodbye


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

cambio said:


> this thread, as with the other one, does appear to be going around in circles.
> 
> I suggest that the OP......does what ever he wants to do, come over, don't come over, be a tax resident, don't be a resident. Whatever. Once he (OP) has been here and got in place his taxes, non residency he can post a thread telling everyone who is already there, how it is done
> Goodbye


what a good idea :clap2:


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I bet you I get the blame for this


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> Its my understanding that you must give a Spanish address for your NIE number - we had to and a friend of mine, who applied for hers in the UK had to give a Spanish address for them to send it to her - altho that was in the days before you had to prove an income and health care provision to obtain a residency. The Spanish bank account can be be opened, but unless you have a spanish address, it will have to be a special "non resident" account. Now, when we had one, we received a letter from the guardia and the bank after six months telling us that unless we changed to a residents account then we would be fined????? Because my husband commuted and was therefore in the UK more than Spain, he closed his account - I, as a resident, had the Spanish one.
> 
> Unfortunately, Spain dont make things easy and their bureaucracy is a minefield and they simply dont care about the "ifs" or the "buts". Its their way or no way and they dont think twice about being PC or fair about it. Thats the point that we've been trying to make - its nothing like the UK - its tough and theres no-one to make it easy!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I see the kisses are back, I must have been a good boy today 

Cheers Jo, I do see where you're coming from despite the impression I might have given in the previous thread. The whole system sounds corrupt to me, simple as that, but then again, there are _very_ few countries in this world that I consider to have a sensible goverment anyway. I'm not surprised at the way things appear to be done in Spain. The more I learn about the way this system works, the more confirmations and advice I get about it, the more obvious it becomes what game they're at. The Spanish government can be read like an open book just as the British one can. Unfotunately not everyone out there can read it and it's only those that can't read them that will pay the price financially.

The whole NIE thing can be likened to the old joke about the selling of safety matches that were so safe they could not be lit. In other words, they're not putting in place obstacles that directly go against your rights, but instead, they appear to be making the system impossible or near impossible for the avarage layman to navigate in any other way than the way _they_ want it to be navigated.

It's their way of saving their own arses because they're not always prepared to follow the laws themselves (health card nonsense anyone?).




elenetxu said:


> Opening a non-resident account in Spain cost me something like 15€ a quarter.
> 
> Without an address, what is your healthcare plan?
> 
> Best of luck on essentially becoming stateless.


I shouldn't need a health plan if I'm not exceeding the 90 day limit. I'll go the health card route seeing it's an entitlement for being a UK tax payer. Interesting thought on being stateless though, in fact I thoroughly intend to look into that. If never being in one country for over 182 days means I would effectively be "stateless" then I can assure you I'll be making full use of that status. It's down to the government of a country to decide whether or not there is a tax liability which is why there is no tax liability in a tax haven. I can imagine being stateless might render you a 'floating tax haven' or something to that effect.

...then again, I doubt it somehow 




snikpoh said:


> I know logic and Spain don't normally appear in the same sentence, but this can't be correct.
> 
> If I need an NIE to buy a property (that is, BEFORE I have an address), then how can I give an address?
> 
> Also, if you get one in UK, how could you give an address whilst still resident in UK?


I hear you and can answer this one, the situation we have here is what's commonly known as a farce 




xabiachica said:


> I think you're right - it probably depends on the reason you give to get the number...
> 
> if jojo's friend was applying in order to move to Spain - & don't forget that this was before the rule changes - maybe that's why they wanted a Spanish address...
> 
> I've helped others fill the forms in in the past so that they could inherit property - they had addresses in as far flung places as New Zealand...


I think no matter what route I take, the NIE application would fail, that aspect of what you're all trying to sink into my skull has become obvious. I think the best thing for me to do is look at what I already have and make good use of that instead. I have an address in England, I have an account in England, I am tax resident in England - I'll make use of that.

I think it's best if I simply go about my travels as planned because on the one hand I won't have Spanish plates, but on the other hand I won't have to be bothered with all the beurocratic crap that goes with aquiring them. I can get a UK plated left hand drive van reasonably easy, so at least the wheel will still be correct for all over Europe. If some jobsworth pulls me over I will be legal anyway, so I'll just have to be prepared to humour those people if ever I'm pulled over.

On reflection, I think that wanting to change my plates to Spanish ones would have gone against the whole freedom thing anyway. Why Spanish plates when I might end up preferring France or Portugal?




Stravinsky said:


> Please .... dont shoot the messenger again
> 
> When completing the 6 or 7 tax returns we have done over the years, we were required to give our permanent Spanish address because if we were submitting a tax return then we were obviously Spanish residents and had an address somewhere.
> 
> ...


Don't start again, Strav 

I ain't shooting the messenger, I'm _very_ thankful for what you post, I think you're just misinterpreting the way I'm intending things to come across. Believe it or not, I actually think we think very much alike, and reading your comment on the whole "rental" bollocks they're trying to put upon you now, confirms it even more.

Question is, _*what*_ are you property owners going to do about it, eh?

So you own a propery, it's yours, you paid your taxes and now they want to limit how _you_ rent _your_ property out. Fact is, if _your_ property is fit to be rented out for a month then it is obviously fit to be rented out for a day - but what you gonna do about?

You're gonna do what the rest are gonna do about it, nothing much at all. You're gonna whine about it and they're still gonna enforce it because whining about it won't prevent it from happening. I mean, I nearly hurt myself laughing the other day when I read the one about banning olive oil or something to that effect. What made me laugh even harder was when I reached the part where they said the idea had been dropped. I mean bloody hell, now there's a victory, eh?

Well you see that "victory" right there? You need to be aiming for that same victiory whenever they keep planting these outrageous new laws upon property owners. And the one that absolutely should not be tolerated under any circumstances is the one where they can sent a married partner home to their home country for not meeting minimum requirements.

Know your rights and do something about it.

And you wonder why people like myself want to get away from all this crap, all this business of being told what you can and can't do? All this business of being told "you have to do this and then we are going to do that"? Can you see the attraction in avoiding it?

Either way, good luck with it, you genuinely have my sympathy because if the current sheep trend is anything to go by, you can be 100% sure that is exactly what you're going to get. If you think they have a right to dictate the length of time you can rent out your house, so be it. On the other hand, if you understand that it's just to keep the larger tax-paying holday companies in pocket then shout your mouth off by all means...

...better still get of your property-owning arses and physically do something about it 

Feel free to have a go at me for what I just wrote, because to do so means you haven't grasped that it can only be in your favour to stop these liberty-taking laws ever getting to implementation.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

brocher said:


> I explained in the closed thread that before you become Spanish tax resident, you have to satisfy HMRC that you are no longer UK tax resident. I won't repeat all the scenarios here, you can go back and read them- but how are you going to prove to them that you are no longer UK tax resident if you have a UK address and bank, with no Spanish address, no Spanish bank, no Spanish work contract, no Spanish self employment?
> 
> You are still clutching at the little bits that suit you. As has been pointed out you can not just walk in and demand to be Spanish tax resident and say to hell with them , when they refuse you. You would still be UK resident in that scenario.


I though you wasn't talking to me anymore!
I did miss those shoes though 

I am listening to you, take a look at the change of heart I've had elsewhere in this message and you will see that. Tax residency is no longer an issue so I don't have to worry about proving anything to them. It's best if I make use of the status I already have rather than change it. People would give an arm and a leg to have what I have even though it isn't much. Not only do I have the most powerful passport in the world "The British Passport", but I also have residence and an account registered in the same country. Can't be bad when I look at it like that.

The only thing I don't like is that I will have UK plates in whatever country I visit, but at least I can still have a left hand drive registered on those plates, and lets face it, everywhere in europe apart from the UK is left hand drive so that's something else I can be thankful for.

So yes, I suppose you could say I've had a change of hearet (and it's thanks to you lot). What hasn't changed though is my insistance to avoid England permanently, that is still the same and that is still my goal.




cambio said:


> this thread, as with the other one, does appear to be going around in circles.
> 
> I suggest that the OP......does what ever he wants to do, come over, don't come over, be a tax resident, don't be a resident. Whatever. Once he (OP) has been here and got in place his taxes, non residency he can post a thread telling everyone who is already there, how it is done
> Goodbye


Goodbye, but pop in again so I can let you know how I got on 




Stravinsky said:


> I bet you I get the blame for this


Yeah, it's all your fault, all of it


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> I see the kisses are back, I must have been a good boy today
> 
> Cheers Jo, I do see where you're coming from despite the impression I might have given in the previous thread. The whole system sounds corrupt to me, simple as that, but then again, there are _very_ few countries in this world that I consider to have a sensible goverment anyway. I'm not surprised at the way things appear to be done in Spain. The more I learn about the way this system works, the more confirmations and advice I get about it, the more obvious it becomes what game they're at. The Spanish government can be read like an open book just as the British one can. Unfotunately not everyone out there can read it and it's only those that can't read them that will pay the price financially.
> 
> ...


Well .... I'd really be interested to hear what you think we should do about it. Please dont take this the wrong way again, but you truly dont understand the way things work in Spain. Of course it would be in our favour, but WE dont have any influence in what goes on here. I could recant stories of local town halls here, and what they do but it would bore you 

I mentioned the Priors recently. they lived in a legal house. The town hall came along one day, removed their furniture, and knocked it down. They live in a garage now. Its the only thing that was left. What would you do about it then, because they have spent years fighting it after the event, and trying to get compensation ... they probably never will, because even if it is awarded to them, the authorities will have run out of money

An old law was reintroduced a few years ago that basically addressed knocking down any build that had been made within (iirc) a couple of hundred meters of the coast line. Peoples houses will be removed. I saw one near a beach (belonging to a Spaniard) that had been there for generations, but was scheduled for demolition

The Valencian Land Grab ... The EU have repeatedly fined Spain for these acts of madness. Knocking down peoples houses to make way for an urbanisation, and then charging said person for a proportion of the building of that road. Been going on for years ..... what would you do, with a country flying in the face of EU laws and rules?

Spain can be a vicious hard place. Its you against the system and you are a foreigner. I know you really think you can do something and make a difference ..... but if you tried it would take you years, cost you a fortune, and at the end of it all you face a court as a foreigner in a foreign land with the might of the Spanish Government behind it.

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just trying to tell you that this isn't Britain in the 60's when everything was revolution and they were going to change the world. This is Spain which is in crisis and nothing to do with sheep!


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> Well .... I'd really be interested to hear what you think we should do about it. Please dont take this the wrong way again, but you truly dont understand the way things work in Spain. Of course it would be in our favour, but WE dont have any influence in what goes on here. I could recant stories of local town halls here, and what they do but it would bore you
> 
> I mentioned the Priors recently. they lived in a legal house. The town hall came along one day, removed their furniture, and knocked it down. They live in a garage now. Its the only thing that was left. What would you do about it then, because they have spent years fighting it after the event, and trying to get compensation ... they probably never will, because even if it is awarded to them, the authorities will have run out of money
> 
> ...


The biggest hurdle you _all_ face is the European public, not the "Mighty Spanish Government".

- How many suits in goverment are there?
- How many property owners in Spain are there?

If you can do the maths then you also understand there is nothing "Mighty" at all about the Spanish government compared to the masses that are suffering more and more under it's system.

Do the maths mate, and like I said, know your rights. You have a legal right to take issue, a right to inform other property owners of what is being proposed, and a right to protest about it. There is one thing in common with every law they have in place. That one thing in common is acceptance. Acceptance is what you get when a law is proposed and enforced. Success is what you get when a law is proposed but fought against successfully.

There are two categories of people when faced with situations like this. Those general members of the public who do not know their rights and assume that they automatically have to be content with any law that is proposed (aka sheep). Then there are those that are aware of their rights but are labelled "activists" simply because they are viewed differently to the general public because the "general public" generally do not understand their rights. in fact, the only difference between an activist and the general public is that an activist knows his/her rights and do something about it, while the general public does not. Your biggest hurdle therefore is to educate the property-owning public. Once a sufficient amount of the general public know their rights, you can be sure the rest will take the correct course.

Yes you can fail, bit here's another bit of maths for you to consider:

- Whining about it = Guaranteed success for the government.
- Doing something about = Some chance you will succeed.

Did you do the maths, Strav?
Good luck


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> I see the kisses are back, I must have been a good boy today
> 
> Cheers Jo, I do see where you're coming from despite the impression I might have given in the previous thread. The whole system sounds corrupt to me, simple as that, but then again, there are _very_ few countries in this world that I consider to have a sensible goverment anyway. I'm not surprised at the way things appear to be done in Spain. The more I learn about the way this system works, the more confirmations and advice I get about it, the more obvious it becomes what game they're at. The Spanish government can be read like an open book just as the British one can. Unfotunately not everyone out there can read it and it's only those that can't read them that will pay the price financially.
> 
> ...



I had to relent and talk to you, I was getting way too dizzy going round and around!


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> I know logic and Spain don't normally appear in the same sentence, but this can't be correct.
> 
> If I need an NIE to buy a property (that is, BEFORE I have an address), then how can I give an address?
> 
> Also, if you get one in UK, how could you give an address whilst still resident in UK?


You can just give a friends address in Spain.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

brocher said:


> I had to relent and talk to you, I was getting way too dizzy going round and around!


One of the hazards of high heels 




chris&vicky said:


> You can just give a friends address in Spain.


Haven't got any friends


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

EX-1 said:


> Interesting thought on being stateless though, in fact I thoroughly intend to look into that. If never being in one country for over 182 days means I would effectively be "stateless" then I can assure you I'll be making full use of that status. It's down to the government of a country to decide whether or not there is a tax liability which is why there is no tax liability in a tax haven. I can imagine being stateless might render you a 'floating tax haven' or something to that effect.
> 
> ...then again, I doubt it somehow


Stateless? Great, except when you get sick. Health care is a real PITA to pay for when no country will cover you. Been there, done that, went to the States without health insurance and got bit by a dog. Oops. Of course, I don't know if the UK will cover you if you're a citizen but not paying into the system anymore... Who knows?

I wish you the best of luck.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Stateless? Great, except when you get sick. Health care is a real PITA to pay for when no country will cover you. Been there, done that, went to the States without health insurance and got bit by a dog. Oops. Of course, I don't know if the UK will cover you if you're a citizen but not paying into the system anymore... Who knows?
> 
> I wish you the best of luck.


Cheers, I was just messing around though, like I said, I doubt it would even be possible. But even if it were possible I can't see health care being a problem. If you're prepared to pay for it you can get health insurance pretty much anywhere, they'll happily take your money.

And naturally, if you're a floating tax haven, you'd have a lot more money than you would if you weren't one


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stateless would mean a terribly lonely existence - no healthcare, pension, purpose, friends..... just looking over your shoulder. You could be murdered and no one would know

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> Stateless would mean a terribly lonely existence - no healthcare, pension, purpose, friends..... just looking over your shoulder. You could be murdered and no one would know
> 
> Jo xxx


You cant be stateless, you are always a citizen of one country or another, and for us generally we are UK citizens. We may wish to reside elsewhere of course 

As regards the previous Utopian view of the world comments and its workings, I just cant bring myself to comment, sorry


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> I see the kisses are back, I must have been a good boy today
> 
> Cheers Jo, I do see where you're coming from despite the impression I might have given in the previous thread. The whole system sounds corrupt to me, simple as that, but then again, there are _very_ few countries in this world that I consider to have a sensible goverment anyway. I'm not surprised at the way things appear to be done in Spain. The more I learn about the way this system works, the more confirmations and advice I get about it, the more obvious it becomes what game they're at. The Spanish government can be read like an open book just as the British one can. Unfotunately not everyone out there can read it and it's only those that can't read them that will pay the price financially.
> 
> ...



After two years research of your own and all the pain here, you say we're finally getting through to you, well :amen:for that!:clap2:

I had to relent and talk to you, I was getting way too dizzy going round and around!

Do we not see the attraction of avoiding all the crap? What do you take us for, of course we do, but have you ever thought what would happen if we all did just that? If we all followed your lead and went "stateless"? 

Nobody is saying the system is perfect, not in the UK, not in Spain, or anywhere else for that matter. But in the case of residency, etc there is very good reason why these systems are in place, and why we have do it "their way." What the heck do you think would happen if we didn't? If the governments didn't keep a firm check on the whereabouts of us all, and if the vast majority of us didn't choose to cooperate with their requirements, the whole sysytem would fall apart. None of us would pay taxes, National Insurance, etc if we thought we could avoid it without dire consequences.

By dire consequences, I don't mean a slap on the wrist, a heavy fine from the judge in court or even a long spell in prison. What I mean is, if we all follow your example, and bucked the system, there would be no revenue at all to provide the hospitals ( or the EHIC card which you think you can cheat your way round the system to continue using).

There'd be no roads or street lights, or clean water systems, or sewage systems for you to take advantage of while you travel freely in your campervan.

There would be no schools for our kids. or libraries, or dozens of other publicly funded facilities.

Right enough there'd be no police to pull you over for an illegally driven vehicle. Is that a good trade off for a totally lawless society.

The Spanish have put measures in place to prevent all and sundry landing on their doorstep and potentially creating a further drian on their resources. I'd go as far as say it's high time the UK did the same.

Come on get a grip, you are understandably hacked off because you've been out of work and that makes life very tough. Try being thankful for what you do have - a largely lawful, peaceful society, free healthcare, some state benefits for when times are hard, hopefully your health, a good brain I suspect (if you turn it to more fruitful purposes than kicking the system).

Again, I (and most people) agree the systems aren't perfect but what you advocate represents a total breakdown of society as we know it. Yes, in many ways it would be better if we could all get back to a simpler life but overall we all need to recognise that to a faiir degree we have to conform.

We can debate the nitty gritty of government policy, etc but, as far as I can see, we have to accept the basic precept of goverment regulation and being forced to be acountable so we to pay our share or.......what? Go back to stone age living albeit with a solar equipped campervan?

That's my rant, over!

I wish you well and hope you find what you are looking for, preferably within the letter and spirit of the law, otherwise I suspect you will never find contentment. At the moment you are allowing your disillusionment to take over a degree of rational thought, that's why you are clutching at straws and going round in circles. 

Channel some of the great energy you seem to have a little more positively, and you may find things a lot easier. I have no idea what your line of work is, nor is it any of my business. but maybe if you focused more on how to secure work to resolve your money worries, instead of focussing your all on how to run away to another country, you'd get yourself to a situation where you have real choices. retrain, invent something or start a business...... from you very first posts, you seem to have the brain for it.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> Cheers, I was just messing around though, like I said, I doubt it would even be possible. But even if it were possible I can't see health care being a problem. If you're prepared to pay for it you can get health insurance pretty much anywhere, they'll happily take your money.
> 
> And naturally, if you're a floating tax haven, you'd have a lot more money than you would if you weren't one


Ehh, what? You've repeatedly said you don't have that kind of money, or you'd be able to get your Spanish residency.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> Stateless would mean a terribly lonely existence - no healthcare, pension, purpose, friends..... just looking over your shoulder. You could be murdered and no one would know
> 
> Jo xxx


Maybe I like the loneliness 

Anyway, the comment about friends seem to go against what is normally aquired by travelling. I read a heck of a lot of stuff on forums where full-time travellers hang out and one thing they all seem to aquire on their travels is plenty of friends. And as for getting murdered, well, I would hardly be in a position to be bothered about it if it ever happened 

I've seen the crime in Spain on the TV etc and am not phased by it in the least, I can look after myself.




Stravinsky said:


> You cant be stateless, you are always a citizen of one country or another, and for us generally we are UK citizens. We may wish to reside elsewhere of course
> 
> As regards the previous Utopian view of the world comments and its workings, I just cant bring myself to comment, sorry


I think what you really mean is that you know I'm right but you also know what a mammoth task it would be 
Enjoy the new law and the additional restraint it will have on your freedom 




brocher said:


> After two years research of your own and all the pain here, you say we're finally getting through to you, well :amen:for that!:clap2:
> 
> I had to relent and talk to you, I was getting way too dizzy going round and around!
> 
> ...


brocher, I think I should warn you that I find it _extremely_ exciting when women get angry and go off on a rant at me like that 

Everything you wrote has meaning, real meaning, and of course told with _such_ passion! I swear I could even hear the theme tune to Terminator playing as a backdrop. I had these truly beautiful visions of burning buildings where people in campervans ruled. Every government in the world had been overthrown and the world as you know it had indeed gone for good. I had the last ramaining politician who had managed to escape public execution, pulling himself towards me along the dirt and begging to use my campers fancy macerator toilet facility, and me agreeing providing he promised to macerate his head while he's at it.

Through the smoke and the flames I could see a giant theme park with a disused roller coaster now used as a display on which to hang the heads of the governments that once bled their parents to death. The kids no longer have a roller coaster but they do have something to remind themselves that they are now free to make their own way in the world without those dictators holding them back. Schools no longer exist, and just as a pride of lions will teach their cubs to survive, parents teach their offspring the ways of the world. Just as with the lion cub, they learn or they die, exactly as nature intended, no government required.

And sat around a camp fire I hear a family in discussion:

*Child* - _"Hey dad, what was that story again, why did we ever have governments in the first place?"_

*Father* - _"Well son, somewhere in history some prick thought they had the right to dictate what other people do and it sort of grew from there really."
_
*Mother* - _"Yes indeed, you had no rights in those days, you either followed written rules called laws or they'd put you in a metal cage."_

*Child* - _"Hahaa, that's horrible, I'm glad I wasn't alive in those days, now where's my knife, I'm hungry!"_

It was so beautiful, so _very_ beautiful 

So you see, brocher, your post has meaning, _real_ meaning, but only to those that agree with your idea of a functioning world. My ideal world is a very different one, one where freedom, survival of the fittest and individuality is key rather than conformity, safety, and uniform. And not only that, the women in my world walk around in furr loincloths as well, so that alone means my world is automatically better than yours 

BTW, anyone interested in film rights to this, feel free to drop me a private message!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> *I think what you really mean is that you know I'm right but you also know what a mammoth task it would be
> Enjoy the new law and the additional restraint it will have on your freedom
> *


I know that its not a perfect world, and never will be. Meanwhile whilst we worry about such trivial things, people are starving to death around the world

The law in Spain has no restraint on me .... I no longer have permanent tax residency there but still have domiciled residency there, something you should try  If you can

Over and out ..................


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> I know that its not a perfect world, and never will be. Meanwhile whilst we worry about such trivial things, people are starving to death around the world
> 
> The law in Spain has no restraint on me .... I no longer have permanent tax residency there but still have domiciled residency there, something you should try  If you can
> 
> Over and out ..................


Well yeah, and guess what prevents those that are starving from being able to eat? Governments and beaurocracy. You cannot change facts no matter how much you try or no matter how much you wish it was for some other reason. People starve because of beurocracy, people die because of religion. Every instance of it is people controlling other people.

That's a fact.
Over and out


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

brocher said:


> Ehh, what? You've repeatedly said you don't have that kind of money, or you'd be able to get your Spanish residency.


Sorry, I missed this one although I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

The whole stateless thing is just a joke if that's what you're talking about. If you're talking about health insurance in general then like I said, I'm covered if I stick to the 90 day rule - and as I pay my taxes I intend to make use of it. Hopefully the Spanish will be forced to abide by European rules. Personally I think it's a corrupt way for them to Escape the EU, how gullible people are will dictate how they read the situation. Whenever a country goes against European rules it is because they _want_ booting out of Europe. Refusing medical care you're entitled to gives grounds for their removal from the EU. Why do you think England is almost always the thorn in the EU's backside? - I'm guessing it's because they want out but don't want to face the response of the public and those who have invested in Europe.

Anyway, seeing as you took the time to write so much yesterday I think you deserve better than my vision of an ideal world. The fact is there's not much I can say to you because you seem to forget why I posted these questions in the first place. I did indeed do my research which is why in my first post here you will see that I had my suspicions of how the system was implemented (and that it were bang out of line if that were the case). My questions here were to get confirmation because like I said, I will not put myself in a position where they have anything over me.

It's quite easy to beat these b'stards at their own game. It involves knowing what you can and cannot do and building your plan around it. On the face of it you might not think the posts have been fruitful, but I can tell you for sure there are people who want this lifestyle who are going to be _extremely_ grateful for what has been written here. Not only do we have confirmation of the things most full-timers will need to know, but also found out about unexpected pitfalls. I wasn't ready to put the wheels in motion before I had the discussions here, but I am now, so personally I'm grateful for the threads and the responses they've generated. Others who aren't interested in properties and mortgages will find the threads every bit as essential as I have.

Again, thanks to all who contributed, and that includes you.


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## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Stravinsky said:


> I know that its not a perfect world, and never will be. Meanwhile whilst we worry about such trivial things, people are starving to death around the world
> 
> The law in Spain has no restraint on me .... I no longer have permanent tax residency there but still have domiciled residency there, something you should try  If you can
> 
> Over and out ..................


How can you live in Spain and not have permanent tax residency? Unless you only stay six months of the year, that's just taking long holidays.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> Sorry, I missed this one although I'm not sure what you're getting at there.
> 
> The whole stateless thing is just a joke if that's what you're talking about. If you're talking about health insurance in general then like I said, I'm covered if I stick to the 90 day rule - and as I pay my taxes I intend to make use of it. Hopefully the Spanish will be forced to abide by European rules. Personally I think it's a corrupt way for them to Escape the EU, how gullible people are will dictate how they read the situation. Whenever a country goes against European rules it is because they _want_ booting out of Europe. Refusing medical care you're entitled to gives grounds for their removal from the EU. Why do you think England is almost always the thorn in the EU's backside? - I'm guessing it's because they want out but don't want to face the response of the public and those who have invested in Europe.
> 
> ...




I preferred your theme park post to this one!!

Spain aren't breaking any EU rules re. Healthcare. You are entitled to free healthcare on the same terms as Spanish citizens, and in Spain that depends on contributing via employment or self employment social security contributions. Born and bred Spaniards receive no state healthcare unless they pay into the system, you would be treated in exactly the same way and that's exactly what EU legislation requires. 

90 day rule is something used to *dodge* visa requirements, it has nothing to do with EHIC card. You are bending the rules to suit yourself. If you don't want to follow the rules, why bother with the border crossing carry on, it has already been stated you can not be expelled for failing to register. 

The only area where Spain may possibly be flouting EU regulations, is with regard to EHIC card as there have been reports of them refusing to accept the card from those who are legitimately entitled. This is currently being investigated but further shows how you'd be foolish to rely on it. In any case, it covers initial emergency treatment only, anything else has to be paid by you- either straight out of your pocket or via insurance. Let's not forget how easy it is for insurance companies find a way to refuse payment of claims.

As said earlier, go do what you are hellbent on doing. Come back in a year or two and let us know how much better Spain is than the UK, and how you have prospered and made your fortune .i


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

brocher said:


> I preferred your theme park post to this one!!
> 
> Spain aren't breaking any EU rules re. Healthcare. You are entitled to free healthcare on the same terms as Spanish citizens, and in Spain that depends on contributing via employment or self employment social security contributions. Born and bred Spaniards receive no state healthcare unless they pay into the system, you would be treated in exactly the same way and that's exactly what EU legislation requires.
> 
> ...


But brocher, the reason I'm still having to use the 90 day reset is because I will be bringing a UK plated vehicle with me, it's not just because of the registration requirements for myself. I'm effectively having to look after two interests here; my van and me. Remember there are laws against how long the van can stay on Spanish roads before it must be re-registrered on Spanish plates.

As for the EHIC issue, yes, I know that 
Regards reporting how I get on in Spain, yes, of course I will


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Careful with speed limits, parking tickets, and random police checkpoints then. 
Everything creates a trail of information.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

EX-1 said:


> But brocher, the reason I'm still having to use the 90 day reset is because I will be bringing a UK plated vehicle with me, it's not just because of the registration requirements for myself. I'm effectively having to look after two interests here; my van and me. Remember there are laws against how long the van can stay on Spanish roads before it must be re-registrered on Spanish plates.
> 
> As for the EHIC issue, yes, I know that
> Regards reporting how I get on in Spain, yes, of course I will




So we've established that you have to be resident somewhere and you've chosen UK. Hope you can satisfy all the requirements to retain UK residency. Your 90 day hops will probably have to be to the UK - Shipleys | Residence in the UK for tax purposes


PS, have you tried googling " 90 day rule" to see what it really means.......? I think the google results sum up how much good your so called 90 day rule would do you in law!


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

brocher said:


> So we've established that you have to be resident somewhere and you've chosen UK. Hope you can satisfy all the requirements to retain UK residency. Your 90 day hops will probably have to be to the UK - Shipleys | Residence in the UK for tax purposes
> 
> 
> PS, have you tried googling " 90 day rule" to see what it really means.......? I think the google results sum up how much good your so called 90 day rule would do you in law!


That's a good link, cheers, but all it does is confirm even further that what I plan to do now is perfectly fine. Very early on it clearly states that having your only home in England means you are tax resident. My only home _is_ in England so then, I am tax resident because the other clauses don't apply to me. Better still, as I get to use use my parents place as my official residence I am free to make the decision I want whenever I want to make it. Those rules effectively mean that becoming "stateless" is actually a very real scenario - if - I wanted it to be. I can either keep my official and _only_ residence as it is right now, or, I can officially move out making me fail to meet the UK's requirements for tax residency - and they get nothing. Either way, it's just beurocracy that is there to put on the masses, makes it all the more easy for me though.

As for the 90 day thing, I wish you'd stop being so bloody cryptic and just tell me, in laymans terms, what you're getting at. I keep reading your stuff about that and replying to it. I don't think I'm missing anything but obviously you do, so what is it? You're just after another one of my stories, I can tell.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Careful with speed limits, parking tickets, and random police checkpoints then.
> Everything creates a trail of information.


No worries, everything will be in order, passport, paperwork and proof of every country visit I do. Speed limits and random checkpoints are something I might occasionally fall foul of as we all do but I doubt I'd ever get a parking ticket.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

chris&vicky said:


> How can you live in Spain and not have permanent tax residency? Unless you only stay six months of the year, that's just taking long holidays.


Im sure you have asked me this before

You don't stay in Spain for the required amount of time to become a tax resident.
Someone can come to Spain in July 2013 and leave Spain in June 2014 and not be a tax resident in Spain having spent a year here. In Jan 2015 then they can come to Spain again for another 6 months.

As said before it's all relative because the powers that be cant really tell when you are here and when you aren't. And before you say it, no I am not advocating staying in Spain under the radar, the above scenario conforms to Spanish tax rules

Also, if you arrive in Spain not being a tax resident in (say) October 2013, you actually don't need to put in a tax return until early 2015


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, it's been over a month now since I last posted here so I thought I'd better pop in to annoy you all again 

Nah, actually, I meant to report back here weeks ago and forgot all about it. Shortly after my last post I came across an article on the Wikipedia which describes _exactly_ the sort of lifestlye I've decided to pursue. I knew all along there was a proper name for it, but couldn't dig it out of my mind.

The proper name for such a lifestlye is to become a 'Perpetual Traveller', a description of which you can read at the link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveller

Just thought I'd post the link for those who were following what I was trying to get across in my discussions. It's a lifestlye totally removed from the norm and it's certainly not for eveyone, but it _is_ a perfectly valid lifestlye nonetheless. To those that were following and are interested, I hope that searching the term "Perpetual Traveller" will open-up new sources of information to you as it has done for me - and help you look into this lifestlye.

It's basically a freelance lifestlye with _you_ in complete control and _you_ in possesion of everything you earn (exactly how it should be).
Maybe that's why major companies and famous people practice variants of it 

Well, that's it from me for a while, I hope you all missed me.


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