# NIE/Autonomo confusion



## realbetisbuy (Oct 30, 2012)

Hello world, 

Having read rather a lot I have reached that point where against my manly instincts I am going to ask for advice. 

Well,

The Office of extranjeros won't give me an NIE number. The reason is I don't want to change my pounds to euros and they won't accept £s as proof of ability to support myself. 

I want to teach English legally as an Autonomo. Can I apply for this without the NIE? I understand NIE and NIF are the same, but could I apply for Autonomo and NIF without an NIE if you see what I mean. 

Is there anyway I can avoid paying for private health (as I will be paying Social Security by becoming Autonomo)? I say this as breaking even with Autonomo costs looks difficult.

I understand I don't need to pay IVA, if I were to teach, but could the cost of say an office hire be an expense I can claim for?

Finally, am I risking things if I start looking for students and teaching them before setting up?

Please can I say thanks too for all the stuff already written as it has been a big help and kept me feeling sane,
Cheers
Dimjim


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

realbetisbuy said:


> Hello world,
> 
> Having read rather a lot I have reached that point where against my manly instincts I am going to ask for advice.
> 
> ...



All they want is for you to prove that you can support yourself either in £, €..... If you want to become autonomo then yes, that would cover the healthcare costs, but to do that you should have a business plan and again, proof that you can afford to make the payments - you cant just go and try to find students, how would you invoice them etc??? Its not so much the NIE that they wont let you have, but the residencia and without that you are simply a visitor and therefore you dont reside in Spain


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

realbetisbuy said:


> Hello world,
> 
> Having read rather a lot I have reached that point where against my manly instincts I am going to ask for advice.
> 
> ...


:welcome:

to work here you need to register as resident & that requires that you show that you can support yourself (in euros in a spanish bank account) & that you have healthcare provision

you can't register as an autónomo without a NIE - or in fact without a resident registration cert afaik - but if you are working for yourself you _are required _to register as autónomo - but when you do you will be entitled to state healthcare & eventually maybe even a pension!

you're right that you don't need to charge IVA if you are teaching

your NIE as a foreigner will be used as your NIF

I think that if you have an office you can offset that against tax in some way - my gestor does all that for me - I don't have an office that I work from, but all my printing etc. - even coffees when I teach in a bar & the maintenance of my push-bike are offset to some extent!! 

yes, you are taking a risk nowadays if you start teaching before you 'get legal' ..... certainly in my area, 'they' are checking up big time !!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

> ]The reason is I don't want to change my pounds to euros and they won't accept £s as proof of ability to support myself.


this has confused me..... how can you support yourself in pounds if living in spain.

sorry i may have missed something i'm new here


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

you have money in the bank - it can always be exchanged into euros!


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## realbetisbuy (Oct 30, 2012)

Blimey, you lot are fast! Thanks. To explain, I wanted to keep as many pounds as possible due to the exchange rate and other factors. 

Jojo, I thought that if I was working without being registered Autonomo, I would be working illegally (even if I had barely any customers). i.e. I would have to be paying social security. 

I understand from what xabiachica is saying that I have no other option than to change £s to euros and have them in my Spanish account and take out private health, get a Residencia/NIE, register as Autonomo, work, live in castle made of gold from proceeds. 

It seems that I MUST pay for private health and into the social security, Ja?

I like the idea of attempting to offset expenses. Shoe sole wear is a nightmare! Cost of quink and feathers etc

Cambio, I see what you mean. I see the barter system a more likely candidate.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

realbetisbuy said:


> Blimey, you lot are fast! Thanks. To explain, I wanted to keep as many pounds as possible due to the exchange rate and other factors.
> 
> Jojo, I thought that if I was working without being registered Autonomo, I would be working illegally (even if I had barely any customers). i.e. I would have to be paying social security.
> 
> ...



You would be working illegally if you werent an autonomo, but you could set it up as you become a residencia. But you have to prove you have an income before they'll let you - that bit is essential and inescapable. Healthcare provision can be by way of filling in an S1 form from the DWP in newcastle, who will provide reciprocal care from your NI credits that you should have been making in the UK?????? That I believe will last for two years and by then hopefully you'll have an income???? And thats something you need to think about, if you're relying on making enough to live on in Spain - can you????? You will have to pay 250€ a month whether you earn or not. They can only offset a certain amount from the tax etc??????

Jo xxxx


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

I would imagine you could possibly take out short term health insurance as once registered autonomo you will be paying into the SS system and therefore won't need it anymore, BUT you need it to register resident. I don't know however if that would be acceptable.....

A right ****** in a sense but I guess it's part of the system now - they can't be guaranteed that you WILL register autonomo until you do, which you can't do unless resident....we were lucky, we did our residencia about a year and half ago so didn't need the proofs so then registering autonomo was easy enough.

If they won't accept £ account statement then seems you have not a lot of choice but to make a transfer 

Being Spain, they will never iron any of these systems out.....then they'll change again.....


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## realbetisbuy (Oct 30, 2012)

O.K.
I give in (too stubborn for my own good). I shall transfer the money, step off the magic roundabout and see what happens. I'm off out for me tea and to read about something less complicated than the Spanish system such as Thermodynamics. 

Muchos gracias, y hastagan


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

realbetisbuy said:


> O.K.
> I give in (too stubborn for my own good). I shall transfer the money, step off the magic roundabout and see what happens. I'm off out for me tea and to read about something less complicated than the Spanish system such as Thermodynamics.
> 
> Muchos gracias, y hastagan


 Mate, this is the easy bit - have you got a social security number yet lol!!!!!

Heres a you tube clip that my co mod hates, but its so realistic - This young lady is essentially trying to register as autonomo I believe, and she's Spanish!! Have fun 






Jo xxxx


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

jojo said:


> Mate, this is the easy bit - have you got a social security number yet lol!!!!!
> 
> Heres a you tube clip that my co mod hates, but its so realistic - This young lady is essentially trying to register as autonomo I believe, and she's Spanish!! Have fun
> 
> ...


:clap2::clap2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Mate, this is the easy bit - have you got a social security number yet lol!!!!!
> 
> Heres a you tube clip that my co mod hates, but its so realistic - This young lady is essentially trying to register as autonomo I believe, and she's Spanish!! Have fun
> 
> ...


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## realbetisbuy (Oct 30, 2012)

Ha ha,
Yes, I saw that the other day. 

I recall a camping trip in Cumbria. After setting up the tent, a rough young lass walked past about three times and each time looked straight at us and sang menacingly, "it's only just begun." 

Suffice to say, we scarpered.


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

Is there a certain amount to prove you have? I understood from what I read here that it's about 5-6k Euros, but this is for asking residence papers and NIE, as proof of funds, not for working.
I don't understand why they won't give NIE, unless you show you register for autonomo, but you can't register for autonomo without NIE. The rules should be different, otherwise, it's the same as asking for residence, which is not, you need only the NIE for autonomo, not residency. Anyone has anymore info about this?
Thanks in advance.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Gia said:


> Is there a certain amount to prove you have? I understood from what I read here that it's about 5-6k Euros, but this is for asking residence papers and NIE, as proof of funds, not for working.
> I don't understand why they won't give NIE, unless you show you register for autonomo, but you can't register for autonomo without NIE. The rules should be different, otherwise, it's the same as asking for residence, which is not, you need only the NIE for autonomo, not residency. Anyone has anymore info about this?
> Thanks in advance.


You can get a temporary NIE that lasts for 3 months, but you can only get a permanent one when you register as a resident with the required proofs

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gia said:


> Is there a certain amount to prove you have? I understood from what I read here that it's about 5-6k Euros, but this is for asking residence papers and NIE, as proof of funds, not for working.
> I don't understand why they won't give NIE, unless you show you register for autonomo, but you can't register for autonomo without NIE. The rules should be different, otherwise, it's the same as asking for residence, which is not, you need only the NIE for autonomo, not residency. Anyone has anymore info about this?
> Thanks in advance.


I don't understand why they won't give a NIE - except that you have to give a reason for wanting one

a non-resident can get a NIE to buy or inherit property or a car, for instance

but if you say that you want the NIE to live & work here, then you have to apply for residency - so the proof of funds/income etc. is required

we have one poster here who had to show a bank balance of 5000 € as a single person - 8000 € for a couple..... which imo isn't very much - would _you _move to a new country on spec with only that in the bank?? It would disappear in a couple of months just on rent/deposits etc..


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

jojo said:


> You can get a temporary NIE that lasts for 3 months, but you can only get a permanent one when you register as a resident with the required proofs
> 
> Jo xxx


So if I understand correctly, for someone to become autonomo, can get a NIE, without proof of funds, then setup everything for autonomo (from what I read license, social, taxes etc, hmmm a good gestor might be needed), then ask for residency and NIE again, in less then 3 months? Did I understood correctly? Or once you get temporary NIE, setup all for autonomo and ask for residency, the NIE becomes permanent?

Thanks 

For me it was different, I got first only the NIE (not so easy, the lady there initially didn't want to give me one, I didn't have the work contract, only a paper with a firm offer, it was a bit more complicated for me until I had the work contract), then my employer setup the rest and I had to get social number. But this is for normal work contract. On my NIE I didn't find any validity, so I assume it's permanent.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gia said:


> So if I understand correctly, for someone to become autonomo, can get a NIE, without proof of funds, then setup everything for autonomo (from what I read license, social, taxes etc, hmmm a good gestor might be needed), then ask for residency and NIE again, in less then 3 months? Did I understood correctly? Or once you get temporary NIE, setup all for autonomo and ask for residency, the NIE becomes permanent?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> For me it was different, I got first only the NIE (not so easy, the lady there initially didn't want to give me one, I didn't have the work contract, only a paper with a firm offer, it was a bit more complicated for me until I had the work contract), then my employer setup the rest and I had to get social number. But this is for normal work contract. On my NIE I didn't find any validity, so I assume it's permanent.


they started issuing 'temporary' NIE certs around the beginning of the year - the certs have a 3 month validity & are on white paper (the number IS permanent though)

if you have a green cert it is a resident registration certificate - it also has your NIE number on it


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> they started issuing 'temporary' NIE certs around the beginning of the year - the certs have a 3 month validity & are on white paper (the number IS permanent though)
> 
> if you have a green cert it is a resident registration certificate - it also has your NIE number on it


Thank you, now it's more clear, so anyone can ask a temp NIE and with this needs to solve the work/autonomo/residence with proof of funds on 3 months, thus in maximum this time residence can be asked for and the NIE number becomes permanent. Thanks 

Yeap, mine is green, it's small like a card.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gia said:


> Thank you, now it's more clear, so anyone can ask a temp NIE and with this needs to solve the work/autonomo/residence with proof of funds on 3 months, thus in maximum this time residence can be asked for and the NIE number becomes permanent. Thanks
> 
> Yeap, mine is green, it's small like a card.


you have the resident cert/card then - I got mine before they started issuing cards so I have an A4 cert

I'm not sure you _can _ask for just a NIE to sort out work stuff - only non-residents are supposed to have 'just a NIE' - as I said, to buy property & so on


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> you have the resident cert/card then - I got mine before they started issuing cards so I have an A4 cert
> 
> I'm not sure you _can _ask for just a NIE to sort out work stuff - only non-residents are supposed to have 'just a NIE' - as I said, to buy property & so on


I am hoping that it is possible, if they do give temporary NIE for buying property etc. 
It's the same circle as I was saying earlier, can't get a NIE permanent for autonomo and can't get a license to start autonomo without NIE.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gia said:


> I am hoping that it is possible, if they do give temporary NIE for buying property etc.
> It's the same circle as I was saying earlier, can't get a NIE permanent for autonomo and can't get a license to start autonomo without NIE.


I guess they might not ask... & it depends what reason you give if they do - & if they ask for proof

you have a resident cert/card though - so you have no problem


and for those just coming - if you only need 5000 € in the bank to get the resident reg. cert., just don't come with less..... & register before you spend any !!


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> I guess they might not ask... & it depends what reason you give if they do - & if they ask for proof
> 
> you have a resident cert/card though - so you have no problem


I am hoping it will work, with asking for a temporary one, for getting license for autonomo, the when everything is setup for autonomo, to go back and ask for a permanent NIE, along with residency.

Yeap, I know for me it's OK, I am asking for someone else, who will become autonomo. That's why I am reading all threads related to this and asking about it.
Thanks


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Gia said:


> I am hoping it will work, with asking for a temporary one, for getting license for autonomo, the when everything is setup for autonomo, to go back and ask for a permanent NIE, along with residency.
> 
> Yeap, I know for me it's OK, I am asking for someone else, who will become autonomo. That's why I am reading all threads related to this and asking about it.
> Thanks


I was just editing my post as you quoted me


all they need, it seems, is 5000 € in the bank to register as resident - I can't imagine anyone moving to another country, to take a chance on finding employment, with less than that in the bank


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Gia said:


> I am hoping it will work, with asking for a temporary one, for getting license for autonomo, the when everything is setup for autonomo, to go back and ask for a permanent NIE, along with residency.
> 
> Yeap, I know for me it's OK, I am asking for someone else, who will become autonomo. That's why I am reading all threads related to this and asking about it.
> Thanks



I think the rules maybe interpreted slightly differently depending on where you go, who you see etc - Spains like that lol!! The best thing to do would be to get a gestor who can draw up the autonomo, help with the business plan and who can then help with the proposal to the foreigners office 

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I think the rules maybe interpreted slightly differently depending on where you go, who you see etc - Spains like that lol!! The best thing to do would be to get a gestor who can draw up the autonomo, help with the business plan and who can then help with the proposal to the foreigners office
> 
> Jo xxx


you don't even need a business plan - you just have say what you want to do - in my case I just said 'teach private classes' - & register....................

iirc I had to show my resident cert, though a NIE might have been enough, my padrón & I _think _my passport

I think I had to guesstimate how much I expected to earn a month, too - although that might just have been a nosey gestor

the SS number came as a result of my autónomo registration

this is all quite some time ago though......


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> you don't even need a business plan - you just have say what you want to do - in my case I just said 'teach private classes' - & register ....................
> 
> iirc I had to show my resident cert, though a NIE might have been enough, my padrón & I _think _my passport
> 
> ...


 I heard or read somewhere that you needed a gestor to sort out the autonomo and that now it needs to be shown that there is some sort of valid business to back it up as there have been people trying to use the autonomo route as a way of gaining residency and healthcare and then working "on the black"????????? something like that 

Jo xxx


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## Gia (Sep 25, 2012)

jojo said:


> I think the rules maybe interpreted slightly differently depending on where you go, who you see etc - Spains like that lol!! The best thing to do would be to get a gestor who can draw up the autonomo, help with the business plan and who can then help with the proposal to the foreigners office
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, that's the plan, to hire a gestor that can do it and help with it. In the meantime, gathering info helps also


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I heard or read somewhere that you needed a gestor to sort out the autonomo and that now it needs to be shown that there is some sort of valid business to back it up as there have been people trying to use the autonomo route as a way of gaining residency and healthcare and then working "on the black"????????? something like that
> 
> Jo xxx


you don't need a gestor to set it up - although I did use one

it's _after _registration that you have to show you are actually running a business - I have to produce proper invoices for every student, with _their _NIE numbers as well as mine on them - & keep proper 'books' (well, my gestor does that for me too)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> you don't need a gestor to set it up - although I did use one


Yes but you know the Spanish system and Spanish. someone coming over may need advice on the whole business ethos in Spain

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Yes but you know the Spanish system and Spanish. someone coming over may need advice on the whole business ethos in Spain
> 
> Jo xxx


for sure - as I said - even though I know the language & I know the system pretty well, I used a gestor

heck, that's _why _I used one - it saves so much time going from office to office & none of them are in my town

but if you want to, & have the time & inclination, it's perfectly possible to do it all yourself - it's not a _requirement _to use a gestor


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