# (Un)employment - facts and figures about Spain



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

While I think it's great that people have the *umph* to consider making a life changing decision like moving lock, stock and barrel to Spain, if you need to work, I would advise everyone to look, REALLY look at the situation before you come.

Here are some pretty up to date figures.

*Unemployment rates*
SPAIN
Feb '09 - 16.7% Feb '10 - 19.00%

UK
Feb '09 - 7.1% Dec '09 - 7.7%


*Unemployment under 25's*
SPAIN
Feb '10 - 40.7%

UK
Dec '09 - 19.7%


*Unemployment rates in the Euro area (27 countries)*
SPAIN in position 26
UK in position 10

Full report
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/3-31032010-BP/EN/3-31032010-BP-EN.PDF
If you decide to come to Spain after reading this - GREAT :clap2:- it's good for the economy!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> While I think it's great that people have the *umph* to consider making a life changing decision like moving lock, stock and barrel to Spain, if you need to work, I would advise everyone to look, REALLY look at the situation before you come.
> 
> Here are some pretty up to date figures.
> 
> ...


But isn't it the case that those rates are based on those CLAIMING unemployment benefit and do not include the millions engaged in black employment especially in Spain, e.g. agricultural workers, especially temporary ones.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But isn't it the case that those rates are based on those CLAIMING unemployment benefit and do not include the millions engaged in black employment especially in Spain, e.g. agricultural workers, especially temporary ones.


I would think that probably is the case

which of course means it's even worse


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But isn't it the case that those rates are based on those CLAIMING unemployment benefit and do not include the millions engaged in black employment especially in Spain, e.g. agricultural workers, especially temporary ones.


That's what Zapatero would like you to believe. The truth is that the black economy is no more immune from economic downturn than the tax paying economy. Yes spain as a poor country has accepted higher unemployment rates than richer countries but the current numbers are horrific. And forget comparison with the UK, we are talking about 26th out of 27 and many other countries have black economies 

The problem is from such a low level of state income can the situation improve before social unrest takes over. Recently we have seen the power of the rich nations to resolve the problems of Greece and yet as I write the Euro slides on fear of the Greek fallout  We have also seen strikes in numerous countries. 

Hopefully when the unrest comes to Spain it will be shortlived but I for one support radical change because without it there seems no hope.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

SteveHall said:


> Swedish unemployment at half the Spanish figure is treated as a national disgrace and could well bring the present government down in this year's elections ....... and yet Zappy toddles along apparently immune to pressure. I suppose if there were a credible alternative ......... That said, would the PSOE want to take power at this moment?


I thought Zap (a.k.a. Mr Bean) *was* PSOE but if you mean "would the PP want to take power at this moment?" I sincerely hope not if the rest of them are as personally corrupt as our alcalde!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> ......................... without knowing the real pain of long-term unemployment.


or even the fear of being unemployed. My spanish brother-in-law (40 years old with a 6 year old daughter) has just been diagnosed with cancer. Hopefully an operation in May (we await a date) will remove everything (the growth) and all will be well. 

But on top of that he fears for his job. Already the bosses suggested he book holiday to coincide with hospital appointments and awhile back a colleague of his was sacked for not being enthusiastic enough - he had lost his 3 year old daughter weeks earlier. Of course the queue of unemployed willing to work on unsecured contract and for less wouldn't be driving their thinking would it?

Yup the repercussions run very deep


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*jobs, work, employment, unemployment*



nigele2 said:


> or even the fear of being unemployed. My spanish brother-in-law (40 years old with a 6 year old daughter) has just been diagnosed with cancer. Hopefully an operation in May (we await a date) will remove everything (the growth) and all will be well.
> 
> But on top of that he fears for his job. Already the bosses suggested he book holiday to coincide with hospital appointments and awhile back a colleague of his was sacked for not being enthusiastic enough - he had lost his 3 year old daughter weeks earlier. Of course the queue of unemployed willing to work on unsecured contract and for less wouldn't be driving their thinking would it?
> 
> Yup the repercussions run very deep


That's terrible. I know bosses have to be bosses, but you'd think they'd be human first and foremost, wouldn't you?


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## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

Not to be too political or controversial but  ... 

The UK's figures are fudged. Over 8 million people have been classed as "economically inactive" - that means they don't work and have not worked recently. 

That number is NOT included in the OFFICIAL "unemployment" statistics of the UK. (look it up)

IOW our figures are fudged - you can tag about an extra 10-12% on to that figure.... 

The UK is actually in pretty much the same situation as Spain - except Spain is cheaper to live in, has better weather, and in my opinion has more likelyhood of making a recovering in the next 10+ years (yeah, the UK has big problems).

The UK's figure has also been on the rapid rise since December 09, and is still on the rise now.

Don't get me started on the education system, the illiteracy rates, etc. My friend is a university professor in a top 10 university, some of the discussions I've had with him about his "university level" students are frigtening and frankly the comprehensive level schooling system has probably worsened since then.

I tend to be slightly left-wing in my political views, but right now the UK is soaring towards a socialist nightmare and it's happening extremely fast. Everyone, particularly the younger they are, thinks the world owes them a living and a lifestyle for sitting on their backs. If they run out of money, they want to know why the government hasn't give them a bigger loan. If they fail a piece of work, they want to know why the lecturer didn't tell them exactly what to write. 

Attendance rates in lectures and seminars are sometimes lower than 30% - and that's ACCEPTED as OK by the University.

In my opinion the future of the UK is very bleak for the next 10 years at the very least. You have to understand that this (non) work-ethic is yet to even be realised by our economy. There will be a delayed effect. Things are most likely going to get worse.

For me personally, if I don't have any luck in Spain then I'll jet off to south-america where I know there are plenty of opportunities teaching English.

ANYWHERE but the UK...



Pesky Wesky said:


> While I think it's great that people have the *umph* to consider making a life changing decision like moving lock, stock and barrel to Spain, if you need to work, I would advise everyone to look, REALLY look at the situation before you come.
> 
> Here are some pretty up to date figures.
> 
> ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Rags good to know you are so happy in spain. However UK bashing aside (always makes me smile when expats do that ) if spain is so marvellous for its poor then are you saying the other 24 countries better placed than Spain are also fiddling the books?


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## nina874 (Mar 13, 2010)

I have to say that I am somewhat in agreement. Cornwall where I live at the moment never comes up as an unemployment blackspot, but the situation here is dire. A Haven holiday park advertised recently and they had over 600 applications for 20 minimum wage jobs. The majority of people dont appear on the figures as they are moved onto various other benefits very quickly.

That said at least in the Uk there is a benefit system if you fall on hard times.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

RagsToRich said:


> Not to be too political or controversial but  ...
> 
> The UK's figures are fudged. Over 8 million people have been classed as "economically inactive" - that means they don't work and have not worked recently.
> 
> ...


Hi there "Rags"

I agree with everything you say except 
*but right now the UK is soaring towards a socialist nightmare and it's happening extremely fast*
I think it's been happening for ever. I go back to the UK every year and I don't like what I see, and a lot of what I see is just grottiness in general - people, buildings, attitudes, tv (yes, tv here has a lot of grot, but UK telly isn't what it was), press, schools... And it's not getting any better from what I can see.

However, by giving info about the unemployment situation in Spain I'm just trying to make sure people know what they're coming to. *You* have asked a lot of questions, have done your own research and are working towards achieving some specific goals. You are not waiting for Spain to Happen for you. Therefore you may be able to make things work, and you also realise that the important word in all this is *may.* (¿Qué tal vas con el español, por cierto?
Other people seem to think that Spain will adapt to them, that learning the language is secondary, that a job will appear, and the children will have fun 'cos it's sunny all the time. 
I don't like seeing people crash dive their lives.
Still, we learn from our mistakes...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Rags good to know you are so happy in spain. However UK bashing aside (always makes me smile when expats do that ) if spain is so marvellous for its poor then are you saying the other 24 countries better placed than Spain are also fiddling the books?


I would say almost definitely!!

I don't think we EVER get the truth about defence issues, employment, race, education.... 

gardening 

OK maybe gardening, but not agriculture


PS Rags is a wannabe immigrant, not yet here


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I would say almost definitely!!
> 
> I don't think we EVER get the truth about defence issues, employment, race, education....


That must make spain feel better being the only honest country in Europe 



Pesky Wesky said:


> gardening


Ah now back to beauty . I'm returning UK tomorrow and can't wait to see how the 6 David Austin newbies are pushing on. I do miss em when I'm over here in the summer 



Pesky Wesky said:


> OK maybe gardening, but not agriculture
> 
> PS Rags is a wannabe immigrant, not yet here


Ah there by hangs a tail  

Rags happy to agree to disagree. If you ever passing Asturias drop by and we can take positions up in the local sideria and really sort the world out. 

ps why are there no nice gardening or drinking icons?????


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> > That must make spain feel better being the only honest country in Europe
> 
> 
> That's not what I meant!!
> ...


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## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi Pesky,

Yeah I agree - but I think you'd really have to be reading with your eyes closed to not get all the warnings about the employment rate in spain.  

This forum actually mentions it much less than some other forums.

I tried not to sound too bitter about the UK, but that's difficult. Frankly the picture I painted is probably not entirely accurate, I know I'm bias - everyone is. 

I've been dying to get out for a while and the fact I've now commited to leaving probably means I'll be looking for even more reasons.

What you look for, you will find.

Nigel,

I'm not in Spain yet bud. August at the earlist.

Yo hablo solo un pocito espanol ahora mismo, pero me gustaria estar listo antes de voy.

All my own work... this one hour a day learning Spanish is doing a pretty good job eh?  Of course writing is the easiest thing to do, then reading, then speaking, then listening/comprehension.

Can't wait to start being able to understand enough Spanish to watch films/radio.

As for the other countries... well believe me I have many reasons and I think I've mentioned them before - but here's a few...

1) I wanted to learn a language which had a good world-wide usage (IE: not greek or bulgarian or something). When I looked into Spanish I realised that not only is it spoke as a second or first language by more people than English, but also it's very beautiful. I really enjoy speaking, writing and listening to it.

2) I wanted somewhere hot. This was an absolute must for me. The rain, dark and cold absolutely kills me - but light and heat doesn't fail to put a smile on my face. I can't believe I have lived almost exclusively in the UK for such a long time to be honest...

3) I wanted somewhere relatively cheap. Spain has risen in expense, yes... however the south of France is still more expensive.

So you can see why countries like Greece, France, Bulgaria, Scandinavian countries, Germany etc each got struck from the list.

Italy is just somewhere I've never been keen on. 

Portugal was definately a possibility but the other guy I'm moving with wasn't too keen so we compromised.

At the end of the day, you have to make a decision, and anywhere is going to have its ups and downs.


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## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

Here's some interesting figures...

UK: "Employment rate falls to 72.2%" Jan 2010

That's from National Statistics Online (government stats).

So 100-72.2 = 27.8% not employed as a percentage of ECONOMICALLY ACTIVE people... that means it EXCLUDES people like students.

27.8%!!! excluding students, pensioners, etc

So if you add that 8.1 million economically unactive on top of that what do you get?

Something pretty damn similiar to Spain's figures...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

RagsToRich said:


> Yo hablo solo un pocito espanol ahora mismo, pero me gustaria estar listo antes de voy.
> 
> All my own work... this one hour a day learning Spanish is doing a pretty good job eh?  Of course writing is the easiest thing to do, then reading, then speaking, then listening/comprehension.
> 
> Can't wait to start being able to understand enough Spanish to watch films/radio.


Rags glad it is going well. I think the one hour a day is the way to go. We did some analysis of learning flamenco guitar a while back. Difficult to draw hard conclusions but those who did half hour a day seemed to do a lot better than the 10 hours on Sunday. But I remember now that you are an expert on this stuff (power of mind and not spanish  ).

But of course once here you can really get immersed and as you suggest it is very rewarding. Yesterday I was having a chat with the local baker about where to buy glutten free bread and on Sunday a long chat with Sporting Gijon supporters. Great fun. I've now reasched the stage where it is easier to listen than speak which was always a long term ambicion 

Enjoy and don't forget that invite to Asturias

ps: But your new figures still assume spain is honest and the UK not ???


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's terrible. I know bosses have to be bosses, but you'd think they'd be human first and foremost, wouldn't you?


The trouble is, it isn't always easy being the boss. I always found it difficult to dish out orders so I guess it takes a particular type of person to be a boss and with that type often comes various downsides.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

RagsToRich said:


> Not to be too political or controversial but  ...
> 
> The UK's figures are fudged. Over 8 million people have been classed as "economically inactive" - that means they don't work and have not worked recently.


All countries do that.

The unemployment rate is the percentage of people actively looking for work in the workforce.

If you want to compare the number of workers to all adults you need the particapation rate. That rate uses all adults. Including people in prison or otherwise not likely to enter the workforce any time soon.


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## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

Invite to Asturias? I definately missed that. Sounds good. 

I think we've pretty much knocked the idea of "travelling the country" on the head and decided to just shoot straight for Valencia. If I come into an extra 2-3k from somewhere then I'll reassess that.

But may get the opportunity in the future.

Yeah they do assume that Spain is honest - which is probably not a safe assumption of any government stats. The only real question is... what's it like when you get there.

Only time will tell for me.



nigele2 said:


> Rags glad it is going well. I think the one hour a day is the way to go. We did some analysis of learning flamenco guitar a while back. Difficult to draw hard conclusions but those who did half hour a day seemed to do a lot better than the 10 hours on Sunday. But I remember now that you are an expert on this stuff (power of mind and not spanish  ).
> 
> But of course once here you can really get immersed and as you suggest it is very rewarding. Yesterday I was having a chat with the local baker about where to buy glutten free bread and on Sunday a long chat with Sporting Gijon supporters. Great fun. I've now reasched the stage where it is easier to listen than speak which was always a long term ambicion
> 
> ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The trouble is, it isn't always easy being the boss. I always found it difficult to dish out orders so I guess it takes a particular type of person to be a boss and with that type often comes various downsides.


baldilocks that is very true and most bosses have bosses. Jose has worked for this company for many many years and I get the feeling driving him out and replacing him with a low paid contractor will save money and thus offer a little more security to his boss. It's a cut throat world and the syndicatos don't help being servants to the government.

Problem is with such unemployment employee loyalty means nothing.

My wife used to work for Iberia in maintenance. We are still in touch with a few so we will see how things go now british/London rule the seen. Who knows it may do some good.

I hope so as there working condiciones are terrible


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

RagsToRich said:


> When I looked into Spanish I realised that not only is it spoke as a second or first language by more people than English, but also it's very beautiful. I really enjoy speaking, writing and listening to it.


Hi Rags. I agree with all you have said about the Spanish Language (V. useful, beautiful etc.) except for the above bit.

Speak Spanish!



> Spanish is spoken by about 350 million people worldwide as a first language, with a further 70 million speaking it as a second language.


Speak English!



> The total number of people who can speak English, including those who speak it as a second language, is well over a billion.


Where did you get your info from?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Hi Rags. I agree with all you have said about the Spanish Language (V. useful, beautiful etc.) except for the above bit.
> Speak Spanish!
> Speak English!
> Where did you get your info from?


Ah but are you including in your people who speak English those who speak Strine or American? That would rather inflate the figures.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

nina874 said:


> I have to say that I am somewhat in agreement. Cornwall where I live at the moment never comes up as an unemployment blackspot, but the situation here is dire. A Haven holiday park advertised recently and they had over 600 applications for 20 minimum wage jobs. The majority of people dont appear on the figures as they are moved onto various other benefits very quickly.
> 
> That said at least in the Uk there is a benefit system if you fall on hard times.


Funny that isn't it when Cornwall is classed as a deprived area by the EC & gets grants as such.


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## feejoseph (Apr 8, 2010)

looking for employment in nerja or malaga in the hotel/ reasturant/ pub trade years of expierence running our own bussiness in the uk can anyone help?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

feejoseph said:


> looking for employment in nerja or malaga in the hotel/ reasturant/ pub trade years of expierence running our own bussiness in the uk can anyone help?


Sorry, but the humour thread is "Politically incorrect" in the Forum Lounge


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## RagsToRich (Feb 9, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Hi Rags. I agree with all you have said about the Spanish Language (V. useful, beautiful etc.) except for the above bit.
> 
> Speak Spanish!
> 
> ...


Sorry I was wrong - actually it's NATIVE speakers in which Spanish ranks higher than English.

List of languages by number of native speakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

RagsToRich said:


> Sorry I was wrong - actually it's NATIVE speakers in which Spanish ranks higher than English.
> 
> List of languages by number of native speakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I remember when the EU copyright office was up for grabs Spain argued that very point. The UK won but whether the language claims helped or hindered who knows.

Strangely I was talking to a very attractive young lady (I don't make a habit of it I assure you, she needed change for the m/c and then the train was late and it seemed polite ... well you know  ) She spoke perfect Spanish and I remember that in Brazil many people spoke Spanish. Now that's a lot of people


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## valencia-hombre (Sep 10, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> While I think it's great that people have the *umph* to consider making a life changing decision like moving lock, stock and barrel to Spain, if you need to work, I would advise everyone to look, REALLY look at the situation before you come.
> 
> Here are some pretty up to date figures.
> 
> ...


new figures were published the other day
total 4.645.500 in a population of 43,000,000 20.09 %
andalucia 1,104,100 27.78 %
catalunya 676.100 17.71 %
valencia 601.700 23.83%


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

valencia-hombre said:


> new figures were published the other day
> total 4.645.500 in a population of 43,000,000 20.09 %
> andalucia 1,104,100 27.78 %
> catalunya 676.100 17.71 %
> valencia 601.700 23.83%


But they are the OFFICIAL figures, not the real figures which are much less since they are often distorted, especially in the summer when many teaching jobs are "between contracts" which only last for 9 months.


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## valencia-hombre (Sep 10, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> But they are the OFFICIAL figures, not the real figures which are much less since they are often distorted, especially in the summer when many teaching jobs are "between contracts" which only last for 9 months.


maybe the truth is the real figures are MUCH HIGHER. these figures are at the end of the segundo trimestre so at that time schools hadnt closed.

there were more recent figures published in the newspapers the other day. showing the figures had rocketed again.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But they are the OFFICIAL figures, not the real figures which are much less since they are often distorted, especially in the summer when many teaching jobs are "between contracts" which only last for 9 months.


Baldilocks, I have to agree with valencia - man on this one. The figures are probably distorted, but they are probably higher, not lower. The government has no interest in making the figures higher!!
Teachers in state schools are paid until the second week of September and then their contracts are renewed if necessary. TEFL teachers in academies are not usually paid for the summer.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Baldilocks, I have to agree with valencia - man on this one. The figures are probably distorted, but they are probably higher, not lower. The government has no interest in making the figures higher!!
> Teachers in state schools are paid until the second week of September and then their contracts are renewed if necessary. TEFL teachers in academies are not usually paid for the summer.


My point was that many people are on short-term contracts and go on the dole every few months, I only used teachers as an example since my wife is one and her contract is only for nine months a year.


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## valencia-hombre (Sep 10, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Baldilocks, I have to agree with valencia - man on this one. The figures are probably distorted, but they are probably higher, not lower. The government has no interest in making the figures higher!!
> Teachers in state schools are paid until the second week of September and then their contracts are renewed if necessary. TEFL teachers in academies are not usually paid for the summer.


i would guess the government is pretty ashamed of the figures. Some months ago one of the senior government ministers said on a tv interview, we were so foolish we put everything into construction for 30 years and suddenly it has died and we have nothing to fall back on. 

12% of the spanish GNP was construction
12% tourism

and they go hand in hand to a great degree as many of the properties are bought by tourists from northern europe

interestingly, if you look at the oranges in maercadona and other supermarkets and see where they come from usually its uraguay or some latin american country, the oranges from the valencia region are thrown away as nobody wants them, they are too expensive. anyone that has driven the a7 between valencia and cullera / gandia will know just how many oranges are grown in the region. as far as the eye can see each side of the road are orange trees (naranjos) and the occasional lemon (limonero). couple of years ago they reported in one of the spanish newspapers that 245.000 tons of oranges had been thrown away


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

RagsToRich said:


> I tend to be slightly left-wing in my political views, but right now the UK is soaring towards a socialist nightmare and it's happening extremely fast. Everyone, particularly the younger they are, thinks the world owes them a living and a lifestyle for sitting on their backs. If they run out of money, they want to know why the government hasn't give them a bigger loan. If they fail a piece of work, they want to know why the lecturer didn't tell them exactly what to write.
> 
> . ...[/U]



No-one who lived through the period of 'actually existing socialism' in the former Communist bloc countries would recognise that as a description of a 'socialist' nightmare......
Everyone in those countries 'worked'...or perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'attended a workplace'.
In some of those countries you could be charged with the crime of 'social parasitism' if you did not work.
The joke in former Czechoslovakia was 'we pretended to work and they pretended to pay us'.
Sorry to be so punctilious but people throw terms like socialism and fascism around without considering their real meaning in theory and practice..


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> No-one who lived through the period of 'actually existing socialism' in the former Communist bloc countries would recognise that as a description of a 'socialist' nightmare......
> Everyone in those countries 'worked'...or perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'attended a workplace'.
> In some of those countries you could be charged with the crime of 'social parasitism' if you did not work.
> The joke in former Czechoslovakia was 'we pretended to work and they pretended to pay us'.
> Sorry to be so punctilious but people throw terms like socialism and fascism around without considering their real meaning in theory and practice..


But when you consider that in the US Dubya had a law passed that you go up to the next year in school even if you flunk this year, what is the world coming to? Sounds like self-preservation to me!

Fortunately that sort of dumbing down of educational standards doesn't apply here (especially in this village) where I live, if you fail the year in a particular subject then you are expected to pull your socks up over the summer holiday and resit the exams before the next term begins. We have had four students here all summer prepping for their resits in French and English (they have all now passed). We have also had a half-dozen studying here because they *want* to and want to do even better - that is a sort of dedication that you don't find back in UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But when you consider that in the US Dubya had a law passed that you go up to the next year in school even if you flunk this year, what is the world coming to? Sounds like self-preservation to me!
> 
> Fortunately that sort of dumbing down of educational standards doesn't apply here (especially in this village) where I live, if you fail the year in a particular subject then you are expected to pull your socks up over the summer holiday and resit the exams before the next term begins. We have had four students here all summer prepping for their resits in French and English (they have all now passed). We have also had a half-dozen studying here because they *want* to and want to do even better - that is a sort of dedication that you don't find back in UK.


In the UK system everyone goes 'up' to the next year. No-one is kept back and apart from SATs which are in any case being abandoned there are no 'end of year' exams in the UK system for pupils to pass or fail.. There are other methods of dealing with students who fail to reach required standards - how can it help a student merely to repeat a year already failed? What if they fail a second time? Will you have fourteen year-olds sitting in a class with eleven year-olds?? 
There are many reasons why students fail as any qualified and experienced teacher will tell you. Of course, if all you are required to do is memorise and regurgitate facts, keeping them back a year might work. Understanding complex concepts might require more subtle methods of bringing someone up to the required standard for any year group..
How on earth can you generalise about the 'dedication' you find back in the UK? 
During my years of teaching and running schools in the UK I found very many students who were 'dedicated' - by which I presume you mean 'worked hard, did their best' and so on. I also found many who couldn't give a damn about education - and I'm sure there are plenty of those in Spain, too. Even in your village....
Many of my now retired teacher colleagues are making a small fortune by offering home tutoring so there are obviously very many British children (or at least British parents) who want to do well and leave school with the best qualifications they can attain.
I have three grandsons, two at public school, one at a state comprehensive.
They have all done extremely well - one is now working as a ski instructor in Switzerland before going on to University. They worked hard academically and excelled at sports,two of them playing rugby and cricket for their junior County teams. They are not atypical.
We really shouldn't run down the UK so often...it's not all bad, you know.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Interestingly, no Spanish University appears in the list of the World's Top Ten Universities, just published. 
Cambridge is now top and there are four UK Universities in the top ten, including my alma mater University College London Universioty at number four - it wasn't when I was there though
So we must be doing something right....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

SteveHall said:


> Hideous figures that we can glibly comment on without knowing the real pain of long-term unemployment.
> 
> An interesting comparison is with neighbouring Portugal who despite having much in common with it's "Big Brother" is clearly doing better.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve - in defence of ZP, he tried to mitigate the effects of the crisis by pumping billion of € into the Spanish economy - known as Plan E - giving albeit temporary jobs to nearly a million unemployed construction workers to improve the infrastructure in towns and villages all over the country. His philosophy was - why should ordinary working people pay for the collapse of a system over which they had no control? 

Sadly this Keynesian splurge now has to be paid for because it was done largely with borrowed money, and while the IMF and the World Bank don't seem to mind lending billions over decades to developing countries so that they can pay US companies to build dams, they don't award the same generosity towards a minor European country wanting to build new drains in medieval hill towns and keep people off the dole.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nina874 said:


> That said at least in the Uk there is a benefit system if you fall on hard times.


There is in Spain too of course!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> or even the fear of being unemployed. My spanish brother-in-law (40 years old with a 6 year old daughter) has just been diagnosed with cancer. Hopefully an operation in May (we await a date) will remove everything (the growth) and all will be well.
> 
> But on top of that he fears for his job. Already the bosses suggested he book holiday to coincide with hospital appointments and awhile back a colleague of his was sacked for not being enthusiastic enough - he had lost his 3 year old daughter weeks earlier. Of course the queue of unemployed willing to work on unsecured contract and for less wouldn't be driving their thinking would it?
> 
> Yup the repercussions run very deep


Sounds like a very insensitive employer! But in fact it is very hard to sack people in Spain; that's one of the things businesses have been trying to get ZP to change - they call it increased flexibility, workers call it increased insecurity. It also explains why 30% of the workforce are on temporary contracts.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ... my alma mater University College London Universioty


??? not LSE ?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

SteveHall said:


> Hideous figures that we can glibly comment on without knowing the real pain of long-term unemployment.
> 
> An interesting comparison is with neighbouring Portugal who despite having much in common with it's "Big Brother" is clearly doing better.
> 
> ...


Steve- isn't Zap in the PSOE and aren't they already IN power? Better they, than the corrupt PP (well it is here - if you were PP, Zap's money made your road look nice, if you weren't, you still have potholes and worse still the holes and the cut off pipe-ends where they put up the huge sign telling the rest of the world about how much money was being spent)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> ??? not LSE ?


No....I didn't read politics or economics.
My ex's wife teaches there....but that's not why I didn't go there as we get on well.
I sometimes wish I had though. I chose languages as my field of study and spent most of my working life teaching, interpreting and translating.
Politics was what I did in my spare time.....


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> ... a *minor *European country wanting to build new drains in medieval hill towns and keep people off the dole.


Spain GDP: 9th in the world, 5th in Europe.
GDP per capita: 23rd in the world


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Spain GDP: 9th in the world, 5th in Europe.
> GDP per capita: 23rd in the world


Yes, people often think Spain is a third-world country.
There are pockets of deprivation and poverty, of course, just as in the UK.
People run down Spain and the UK for a variety of reasons that often have more to do with them than the countries themselves.
(I'm not bracketing Alcalaina with those people)
Andrew Marr finished his recent tv series 'A History of Modern Britain' with this paragraph:
_*'The threats facing the British are large ones. But in the years since 1945, having escaped nuclear devastation, tyranny and economic collapse, we British have no reason to despair or emigrate.
In global terms, to be born British remains a wonderful stroke of luck'*_.
In spite of having emigrated, I believe that paragraph to be true.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But when you consider that in the US Dubya had a law passed that you go up to the next year in school even if you flunk this year, what is the world coming to? Sounds like self-preservation to me!
> 
> Fortunately that sort of dumbing down of educational standards doesn't apply here (especially in this village) where I live, if you fail the year in a particular subject then you are expected to pull your socks up over the summer holiday and resit the exams before the next term begins. We have had four students here all summer prepping for their resits in French and English (they have all now passed). We have also had a half-dozen studying here because they *want* to and want to do even better - that is a sort of dedication that you don't find back in UK.


but that's what they do in the UK anyway...................


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> but that's what they do in the UK anyway...................


Yes, I pointed that out
I can't see what good it does to keep students back to repeat a year. As I said, you could get silly situations where you have hormone-fuelled adolescents with pre-teens. Successful learning has a lot to do with self-esteem -in my experience slow learners have this in buckets-full. Being kept back will make that even worse.
God knows British education is far from perfect but the majority of schools have schemes in place to help 'slower' students cope with difficulties. IEPs -Individual Education Plans -are usual for slow learners and small group or even one-to-one teaching can be put in place. 
You can't treat a class of twenty to thirty students, all with different innate talents and skills and from a variety of family backgrounds, as if they are homogenous.
What constitutes 'education' also varies from country to country and of course according to the philosophy of those in charge.
If you see education as simply filling an empty vessel (the child) with facts then I suppose keeping them back a year might help fill it up a bit more.
If however you see education as a process of developing independent and critical thinking, of being able to learn for yourself, to question authority whilst recognising the need for order...then it will do no good whatsoever.
Whilst admitting that the British system has produced a large and growing minority of complete chavs and morons (some of whom gravitate to Spain, alas) it should be remembered that the responsibility for this lies with the families that produced them. We British all too often forget that with all its faults we do live in a dynamic, innovative and productive society.
Maybe one of the reasons that Spain is experiencing problems in creating a dynamic twenty-first century economy is its underperforming education system?
Exam results in themselves tell you nothing. My students in Prague all had passed the highest exams in English. They just couldn't speak it.
And they have this daft practice of keeping students back.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I pointed that out
> I can't see what good it does to keep students back to repeat a year. As I said, you could get silly situations where you have hormone-fuelled adolescents with pre-teens. Successful learning has a lot to do with self-esteem -in my experience slow learners have this in buckets-full. Being kept back will make that even worse.
> God knows British education is far from perfect but the majority of schools have schemes in place to help 'slower' students cope with difficulties. IEPs -Individual Education Plans -are usual for slow learners and small group or even one-to-one teaching can be put in place.
> You can't treat a class of twenty to thirty students, all with different innate talents and skills and from a variety of family backgrounds, as if they are homogenous.
> ...


I guess that will teach me to read every word of every post

what happens here is that in ESO kids can be held back each year - but only once in each year - so they can have a second crack at what they have failed - but not a third or fourth

they also have to fail I think four subjects to be held back - & then they get the chance to resit a couple of weeks before school returns in September - so they get something like 11 weeks to prepare for the resits

also there is *constant* testing throughout the school year (my kids would complain that it's too constant!) - & a report every term - so parents will know long before the June report that their darling is failing - so can always 'crack the whip' or get extra help if needed

and yes, for kids with educational difficulties there is support - my own daughter has had support for dyslexia - other kids in the school with other difficulties also get extra support - even if it's just a 'maths' blind spot there is help for that


so you can see they have to work at failing pretty hard to fail!!

even if they 'only' fail one they resit it in September so can go on to the next year with a clean slate

so no, I don't think it's daft

what's daft is kids slipping through the net & moving on year after year & never learning anything at all!!


I'm not saying it never happens in Spain - just that it's harder for kids to slip through the net


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> so no, I don't think it's daft
> 
> what's daft is kids slipping through the net & moving on year after year & never learning anything at all!!
> 
> ...


Now that you've explained it properly I can see it's not daft. And yes, far too many kids slip through the net. The thing that struck me most when I was teaching was the sheer waste of talent ....we do allow far too many students to leave school disaffected with education, with no qualifications and yet by no means unintelligent - often quite the opposite.
Amongst our employees in the UK were a couple of older men who had left school with no formal qualifications. Yet their knowledge and understanding of all things mechanical was astounding. They could fix anything, from the tiniest link on your bracelet to the biggest most complcated job on the biggest muckiest HGV.
Younger employees with all their 'papers' would constantly ask them for advice before starting a job.
These men would have been written off as 'educationally sub-normal'. Yet they could have lectured in applied mechanics at any University.
I know nothing of the ethos of Spanish schools but a little about the ethos of Czech schools. There education is seen as filling the child with knowledge. Independent thinking, flexibility, challenging accepted wisdom in a constructive way just aren't part of educating a child. The results are all too obvious. Satisfaction with the status quo, suspicion of innovation, reluctance to take decisions...all contribute to a docile, rather self-satisfied ethos. 
Do you think the ethos implicit in Spanish education is progressive - I mean in the positive sense, not in the hippy-dippy sixties meaning.
And do you think it has any effect on the rather undynamic economy?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Now that you've explained it properly I can see it's not daft. And yes, far too many kids slip through the net. The thing that struck me most when I was teaching was the sheer waste of talent ....we do allow far too many students to leave school disaffected with education, with no qualifications and yet by no means unintelligent - often quite the opposite.
> Amongst our employees in the UK were a couple of older men who had left school with no formal qualifications. Yet their knowledge and understanding of all things mechanical was astounding. They could fix anything, from the tiniest link on your bracelet to the biggest most complcated job on the biggest muckiest HGV.
> Younger employees with all their 'papers' would constantly ask them for advice before starting a job.
> These men would have been written off as 'educationally sub-normal'. Yet they could have lectured in applied mechanics at any University.
> ...


I can only speak from what is happening with my kids - & yes, at their schools study is encouraged & and they are encouraged/expected to go on to Bacci & uni

but.........


huge parts of Spain are rural & still a bit stuck in the past with kids expected to follow in the family business - I see it around here too

some Spanish families I know have even sent their kids to International school to be educated in English because that will be useful in the family restaurant

there is a lot of catching up to do after the Franco years when everything sort of 'stood still'

Spain has come a long way in not many years but it still has a long way to go


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I can only speak from what is happening with my kids - & yes, at their schools study is encouraged & and they are encouraged/expected to go on to Bacci & uni
> 
> but.........
> 
> ...



Around our way alot of Spanish send their kids to International too, but its more cos they believe that English is the major international business language and needs to be learnt fluently! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> there is a lot of catching up to do after the Franco years when everything sort of 'stood still'
> 
> Spain has come a long way in not many years but it still has a long way to go


I've now lived in two countries where decades were spent under dictatorial regimes and it's fascinating to see the differences.
From my perspective, Spain has made much more progress socially and economically than the CR.
People's attitudes to authority are much more 'stroppy' here. Czechs do as they are told.
People are less tolerant of poor service, lack of hygiene, shabbiness in general. Czechs say 'It's good enough, it will do' or -most commonly 'Well, it's better than we had before'. 
Spaniards dress well, are stylish, are well-groomed and are dignified (of course there are exceptions).
Czechs have no dress sense ('It's not important') and public and personal hygiene are of a low standard. Buses, shops and public places stink of B O and unwashed clothes. Deodorant is kept in a locked cabinet behind the till with expensive perfumes.
So yes, Spain has some distance to make up but it seems to me at least to be making an effort.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I guess that will teach me to read every word of every post
> 
> what happens here is that in ESO kids can be held back each year - but only once in each year - so they can have a second crack at what they have failed - but not a third or fourth
> 
> ...


Quite. My point precisely. If you let a idiots keep going on without reining them in and getting them back to where they belong, what do you end up with? Yeah, I know, a candidate for the US Presidency and just to show he isn't the only one, there are also enough like him, in the US electorate, to elect him into office! not just once but TWICE!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Quite. My point precisely. If you let a idiots keep going on without reining them in and getting them back to where they belong, what do you end up with? Yeah, I know, a candidate for the US Presidency and just to show he isn't the only one, there are also enough like him, in the US electorate, to elect him into office! not just once but TWICE!!!


Do you really regard students who fail an exam or two as 'idiots'??? 
I am no fan of GW or his father or indeed very many U.S. Presidents of the last century but I would hesitate to categorise them all as 'idiots'.
Neither would I write off by inference the population of an entire country of millions of inhabitants as 'idiots'. Some posters of U.S. origin may take issue with you on this.
I don't deny the existency of 'idiocy but of course ia lot depends on how you define it. (And my definition may differ greatly from yours). It comes in a variety of forms. Making generalisations could be thought by some to be one form
Sadly it's universal and not confined to one nation or its inhabitants.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Neither would I write off by inference the population of an entire country of millions of inhabitants as 'idiots'. Some posters of U.S. origin may take issue with you on this.


I think the vast majority of us are used to it. I was in Canada the night of his reelection and dealt with some serious abuse, especially since I "blend in" in Canada.

I just would like to know the source of the claim that kids don't get held back if they flunk. It's a big country, and I'm sure it could happen somewhere, but I've never heard of this happening where I'm from...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

halydia said:


> I think the vast majority of us are used to it. I was in Canada the night of his reelection and dealt with some serious abuse, especially since I "blend in" in Canada.
> 
> I just would like to know the source of the claim that kids don't get held back if they flunk. It's a big country, and I'm sure it could happen somewhere, but I've never heard of this happening where I'm from...


I know it's off -topic , but have you ever read 'Bush it' by Jack Huberman. It's about his 2nd term in office ,after his 1st book, 'The Bush -Hater's handbook '. lots of eye openers in there.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

i


halydia said:


> I think the vast majority of us are used to it. I was in Canada the night of his reelection and dealt with some serious abuse, especially since I "blend in" in Canada.
> 
> I just would like to know the source of the claim that kids don't get held back if they flunk. It's a big country, and I'm sure it could happen somewhere, but I've never heard of this happening where I'm from...


Yes, it sure is a big country. I've only visited a small part: New York City and New England and people say New York City isn't really America!
About so-called 'idiots': we had a guy who worked for us in the UK who had left school with no -and I mean no -academic qualifications. We took him on initially because he was constantly ringing or turning up in person as he was unemployed and desperately wanted to work as a mechanic. We thought perseverance should be rewarded so we paired him with one of the experienced qualified guys.
To cut a long story short: he turned out to be honest, reliable and a capable worker. He learned a useful trade and also the social skills he was lacking.
His current employer speaks highly of him.
I wonder if his teachers considered him an idiot
Especially those whose cars he was well paid to fix....


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## plainmoor (Nov 24, 2009)

I am lucky and unlucky as i have a legal job working for a spanish builder and have done on and off for the past 6 years but the boss is the biggest t&%t around, as we live in a small rural village he thinks he is the big almighty, when we just had the local elections he said he would sack anyone who did not vote the way he said (cant see how he would know), also we have problems with the water being cut off so there are protests, he sacked his master builder for taking part as he told us all not to. I had an accident at work where a set of steel ladders collapsed in half while i was on them and broke two of my knuckles, all he was interested in was why i had broke them and not how i was, also he was meant to fill the accident forms out within 5 days but it took him 4 weeks and he was meant to pay me my wages but decided to only pay half of my wage, i am in a nightmare as i need to work but cant change jobs as there are none out there so i have to work for a pain in the arse.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

plainmoor said:


> I am lucky and unlucky as i have a legal job working for a spanish builder and have done on and off for the past 6 years but the boss is the biggest t&%t around, ......................


Plainmoor it is like that in many parts of spanish society. My BIL just had his first 2 weeks hols in August for many years. His boss made him work the Monday before because "well if I gave you the Monday that would give you more than two weeks including weekends". Good reward for many years service.

And it's not just the little guys. My DIL just got a call from her previous employers (I use the word loosely). With 5 years experience they ended her contract in February. Now they want her to do a short contract from November based in Barcelona. She lives and has worked for them in Madrid. She'd end up paying to work.

And now to inconvenience the workers even more they close the roads for some visit of an ex ****!!!! Spain is a mad place. Bring on the revolution.


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