# La corrida de toros



## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

Just curious -- any expats here who attend the bullfights? I know that most gringos are horrified by the perceived cruelty of bullfighting, and am just wondering how those of you who have embraced the Mexican culture and lifestyle feel about it.

Bullfighting has been banned in several areas of Spain (the Canary Islands and Catalonia.) Any similar movement in Mexico?


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

We are in the hinterlands so the matadors, and probably the bulls to an aficionado, are not very good. They have bullfights in our sister city San luis de la Paz for the town festival and the novice bull fighters make a mess of it so really turns expats, and locals, off. People in the know only come late and miss the messy carnage. They want to see the name bullfighters as supposedly much cleaner. I bypass the whole thing as I don't like the concept or the process but I keep my mouth shut.


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## La Osita (Oct 31, 2010)

Bull riders are about as much as I can handle. They have bulls and riders here a few times a year... it's the young men who end up getting hurt. I don't like it much. 

And for sure, I have no desire to see the bull fights. Just can't find anything that speaks of entertainment in such an event. Yuck. Killing or maiming for pleasure is not for me.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Smaller towns only have rodeos which I find fun but don't go often. To see a bullfight I would have to go to Autlan (3 hours away) or Colima (two hours away). Even in those towns they don't have them often ... not many local bullfighters


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2012)

Bullfighting is the only sport I watch any more on TV. They broadcast the corridas on Sunday afternoons from the Plaza de Mexico in MX City. They happen in the spring and fall. Have not yet gone to see them in person, but want to do so.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Many years ago I went to the Feria del Caballo in Texcoco and saw a Portuguese-style bullfight, in which the bull is not killed. I found it colorful and interesting.


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## La Osita (Oct 31, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Many years ago I went to the Feria del Caballo in Texcoco and saw a Portuguese-style bullfight, in which the bull is not killed. I found it colorful and interesting.



Is it then more of a skilled "dance" of sorts with the bull?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

itnavell said:


> Is it then more of a skilled "dance" of sorts with the bull?


I think so, but it's been over 30 years since I attended the corrida, and the details are kind of fuzzy.


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## Mr. P Mosh (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, I'm a local and I've never gone to a _corrida_ nor know anyone who has been in one (from my family and friends in my age range -early 20s-)... in fact, the only times I've gone to the Plaza de Toros here in Monterrey were for a wrestling event and a concert. lol


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## sunnyvmx (Mar 14, 2010)

You are right, in my ignorance I once attended the bullfight in Acapulco. I was sickened and horrified. By the time the matador came out to fight the bull he was weakened and dazed by the loss of blood and pain. This was sport? I found myself loudly cheering for the bull each time he tossed the matador and turning my back on much of the spectacle. Finally the driver of our group suggested we leave.


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## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

Mexico, like most civilized countries, is in process to prohibit blood sports, like bull fighting
Una Comisión Legislativa aprueba prohibir las corridas de toros en el DF - Entretenimiento - CNNMéxico.com

I have to admit though, that in my younger years, I thoroughly enjoyed them sitting in the 46000 mega stadium in Mexico City on the "sol" side, so I could afford more Dos Equis. OLE!


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## stilltraveling (May 7, 2012)

I don't think that bullfighting is really Mexican culture. It's more of a holdover from Spain attended by petit bourgeois wannabes. I went to a few back in the 80s but I've been turned off by the whole spectacle. I prefer MMA where all the participants consent to be beaten to a pulp. 

Besides, it's a waste of good meat. All that adrenalin running through the bull's blood in the last moments of its life makes even the ribeye as tough as brisket.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

ptrichmondmike said:


> Just curious -- any expats here who attend the bullfights? I know that most gringos are horrified by the perceived cruelty of bullfighting, and am just wondering how those of you who have embraced the Mexican culture and lifestyle feel about it.
> 
> Bullfighting has been banned in several areas of Spain (the Canary Islands and Catalonia.) Any similar movement in Mexico?


Depends where you are based. There are corridas every Sunday afternoon in Mexico DF but generally they aren't terribly interesting. The main season starts in November when the Spanish matadors are in Latin America for the season when it starts to get interesting. I have been an aficionada for many years in Spain and am just getting interested in what happens here. I know it is indefensible but.... Many of the main cities have a week or more of corridas over the winter season when it is winter in Sapin and many of the bullrings here are beautiful (I have to except Mexico City room this, which is certainly the biggest plaza I have ever been in but sure ain't the prettiest). I am not aware of a big protest move,ent against it here and many of my colleagues either go or are at the most indifferent. A bit of a change from some places in Spain where the protesters spend their time outside the plaza making a lot of noise in the hope that we'll all give up and go home.


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## richmx2 (Aug 6, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> Many years ago I went to the Feria del Caballo in Texcoco and saw a Portuguese-style bullfight, in which the bull is not killed. I found it colorful and interesting.


Two or three points: I think by "Portuguese-style" bullfighting, Isla Verde is referring to rejonderas... we have them here in Mazatlan and the bulls certainly are killed.

My company (Editorial Mazatlán) is publishing what should be the definitive book in English on bullfighting as an art/sport/cultural artifact... whatever you want to call it. We'd hoped to have it out last year, but the author is an extremely overworked academic, and — considering this will be sort of THE English-language reference — we're taking our time getting it right. It SHOULD be published later this year. 

I'm something of a minority in defending bull fighting on environmental groups. Fighting bulls are NOT domestic animals (they're a different species than domestic cattle) ... which is an economic incentive for breeders to preserve rangeland instead of turning to the highly destructive feedlot cattle raising.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

richmx2 said:


> Two or three points: I think by "Portuguese-style" bullfighting, Isla Verde is referring to rejonderas... we have them here in Mazatlan and the bulls certainly are killed.


I don't know anything about _rejonderas_, but I do remember that the bull was not killed, at least not during the _corrida_ itself.


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## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

Isla is correct -- in Portugal and southern France, bullfights don't involve killing the bull. Spain is unusual in this regard...if bullfighting developed from ancient Meditteranean religion, as some believe, that final sword thrust was added at a much later time.

I plan to attend a fight or two in one of the big cities to make my own judgement about this. I probably will be appalled, but you never know. I'm no vegan or PETA activist, although I have a number of friends who are -- and who have told me that I'd better not get into la corrida...lol.


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## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

richmx2 said:


> I'm something of a minority in defending bull fighting on environmental groups. Fighting bulls are NOT domestic animals (they're a different species than domestic cattle) ... which is an economic incentive for breeders to preserve rangeland instead of turning to the highly destructive feedlot cattle raising.


Fighting bulls are not a different species from domestic cattle -- they are a different BREED specially bred for aggression etc. They are perfectly capable of reproducing with plain old cows, which is the definition of a species.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

ptrichmondmike said:


> Isla is correct -- in Portugal and southern France, bullfights don't involve killing the bull. Spain is unusual in this regard...if bullfighting developed from ancient Meditteranean religion, as some believe, that final sword thrust was added at a much later time.


Thanks for the information, mike. I do remember what I saw, a Portuguese-style _corrida_, at the first Feria del Caballo to be held in Texcoco, of all places. It makes sense that bullfighting developed from a religious rite. Just think of Cretan bull worship, bull-leaping and the Minotaur lurking in Minos' labyrinth.


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## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for the information, mike. I do remember what I saw, a Portuguese-style _corrida_, at the first Feria del Caballo to be held in Texcoco, of all places. It makes sense that bullfighting developed from a religious rite. Just think of Cretan bull worship, bull-leaping and the Minotaur lurking in Minos' labyrinth.


Yes, those beautiful Cretan frescoes of bull leapers are amazing. I recently saw a show on YouTube which was a "recreation" of life on ancient Thera (Santorini), which possibly inspired the Atlantis myth when it exploded and disappeared. They showed bull leaping, and it was very well done.

That's just one theory. Others say bullfighting most likely is a survival of Roman arena games -- in which case, the sword has always been there. If so, the next question is why it disappeared in Portugal and France. Neither of these peoples is noticeably more humane than Spaniards. We can only speculate, at this point.


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## richmx2 (Aug 6, 2012)

ptrichmondmike said:


> ... Others say bullfighting most likely is a survival of Roman arena games -- in which case, the sword has always been there. If so, the next question is why it disappeared in Portugal and France. Neither of these peoples is noticeably more humane than Spaniards. We can only speculate, at this point.


Most of us come from a culture that seeks to deny the reality of violence and death... a place that launches bombs on other cultures, but won't permit the photographs of even coffins of dead soldiers, and is also one where we relish eating beef, but don't want to think about the feedlots or the slaughterhouses. I'm not sure "humane" is the right word. At any rate... 

One thing that surprised me about the manuscript (I am not the primary editor) is that while I'd always assumed that the bullfights came from Crete or the Romans, the Phoenicians — who had settlements on the Iberian Peninsula — are one likely source. On the other hand, the earliest records of anything resembling modern bullfights only date from about the 13th century AD. 

There is a theory that the Spanish bullfight is more "democratic" than the Portuguese version — not the blood (or lack thereof), but in who faces the bull. The main human actor in both was the mounted horseman until the 18th century — representing (or in reality) the nobility... defending the commoners against the forces of nature. However, there was a shift in focus in the late 18th century Spain, which put the unmounted commoner — the matador — center stage. Some of the change is due to disinterest — or even downright hostility by the Bourbon monarchs but there is a scholarly debate on how much of the change is also due to Enlightenment concepts of the rights of man (and the traditional Spanish egalitarian values re-emerging during the time) and how much to the colonial experience: nobility being somewhat scarce in the Americas, and not always well liked (there's records of upper-crust Spaniards donning masks just to enter the arena in Mexico City), the matadors — who often as not were mestizo or Indigenous... or even of African descent — were the people's choice.

On that last point. it's amusing (or bemusing) that bullfighting was probably the first openly integrated professional sport... by race and gender (there were _matadoras _as far back as the early 19th century), and even by gender preference by the early 20th. (Ernest Hemingway's "The Mother of the Queen" is a nasty little story based on a well-known gay matador of the late 1910s and 20s).


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## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

richmx2, you may not think "humane" is the right word, but in fact it is -- it refers to our human capacity to empathize with other humans...and also with animals, for many of us.

Me? I'm not all THAT humane. I would like to attend some bullfights, to see if I think they are beautiful, or horrible. My mind is open.


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## edgeee (Jun 21, 2012)

i'm a total novice on this topic but i do wonder about it.

if i were to oversimplify beyond logic, i would say it looks a lot like man's eternal struggle to overcome any challenge, no matter how large or how fierce.

and after we defeat the beast, we eat the meat.
simple survival instinct.

but, being human, we feel the need to flaunt our superiority and so we do.
thus is created the spectacle, such as it is.

as for judging it's value or it's detriment. . .
there is no accounting for taste.


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## Ken Wood (Oct 22, 2011)

I have spent afternoons at a corrida in Spain and in Mexico. I enjoy it more when the bull is defiant to the end, and insists that the kill be administered with caution, lest he wind up administering some last minute justice of his own. I always join the crowd in disliking and jeering the picadores who ride in on a horse with so much padding and protection that they are all but unrecognizable, their sole purpose being to, from a safe location, sever enough blood vessels to weaken the bull for the matadores. This step is necessary because these magnificent animals have evolved into such superior foes that a matador would never step into the ring with a bull that is functioning at 100%. While that might seem unfair, know that it has to happen, or there will be no bullfights. Even the Portuguese style fights, mentioned earlier in this thread, require a similar bloodletting, though it is done in private, out of the public eye. There will come a time, maybe in my lifetime, maybe not, when bullfights will go the way of other blood sports, which have disappeared from being publicly sanctioned...but, that's what they said about using cork to seal wine bottles. Some things just will not be pushed away.

People have asked if I would attend a similar event if dogs, cats, or even people were being killed. Of course, I would not, these animals are not bred to be killed, as are cattle of all breeds, including dairy cattle when they fall below the X gallons a day threshhold.


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## ptrichmondmike (Aug 26, 2010)

This whole discussion caused me to remember a movie I saw when I was a kid in the mid-50s that impressed me profoundly. After some digging on the net, at which I'm very good, I learn that it was called "The Brave One," made in 1956.

I'll bet some other geezers here also remember it. It was about a little Mexican boy who saves and befriends a bull - Gitano - then is crushed when its owners ship it off to Mexico City for the bullring.

The boy moves heaven and earth to get to the capital, and then somehow obtains an audience with El Presidente himself. After an emotional appeal, the deeply moved president signs a "pardon" for the bull. Off to the bullring the boy rushes....but Gitano is already in the ring, facing Mexico's greatest matador! After a few passes of the cape that get the bull worked up and ornery, our little hero leaps into the ring and runs toward Gitano calling his name. The crowd gasps in horror, as Gitano begins to charge the little tyke...when, suddenly (of course) he realizes that this is his friend. All ends in tears and cheering.

I cried too -- I cry at the movies often, starting with "Bambi" way back when. It was a wonderful film, and I'll have to see if it can be found nowadays.

Since then, I've been pro-bull. But I still want to see a bullfight.


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

Ken Wood said:


> I have spent afternoons at a corrida in Spain and in Mexico. I enjoy it more when the bull is defiant to the end, and insists that the kill be administered with caution, lest he wind up administering some last minute justice of his own. I always join the crowd in disliking and jeering the picadores who ride in on a horse with so much padding and protection that they are all but unrecognizable, their sole purpose being to, from a safe location, sever enough blood vessels to weaken the bull for the matadores. This step is necessary because these magnificent animals have evolved into such superior foes that a matador would never step into the ring with a bull that is functioning at 100%. While that might seem unfair, know that it has to happen, or there will be no bullfights. Even the Portuguese style fights, mentioned earlier in this thread, require a similar bloodletting, though it is done in private, out of the public eye. There will come a time, maybe in my lifetime, maybe not, when bullfights will go the way of other blood sports, which have disappeared from being publicly sanctioned....


I've often wondered why the crowd boos the picadores. Is there a right and wrong way to injure and torment a bull? Maybe spectators would prefer to return to the old days, when the picadors' horses wore no padding at all, and the unfortunate, skinny beasts were routinely disemboweled, to the crowd's delight.
Come to think of it, maybe that's bullfighting's idea of "progress" as far as reducing some of the gorier aspects of this "sport". Personally, I'd like to see a more level playing field, where the bull had a much better chance of "winning", or at least being given a reprieve. If that involves getting rid of the picadors and having the matador face a fresh bull, so be it. 
I've been to the bullring in Mazatlan, (small, with the "action" a little too close for comfort), and sometimes watch the Sunday afternoon TV bullfights from Mexico City. Usually, the stands are more than half-empty and the average age of fans suggests that young Mexicans aren't much interested. Although I admit to a bit of a morbid fascination with it, I wouldn't regret bullfighting's demise.
Likewise for MMA fighting and its imitators: just our northern version of blood sport.


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