# Bye bye spain



## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Bye bye España | Política | EL PAÍS


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

An interesting article—but it's not really telling us anything we don't already know.

If those thinking of returning to the UK think the cost of living is difficult in Spain, they're going to get a shock when they discover the cost of living in the UK and just how much its changed.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mickbcn said:


> Bye bye España | Política | EL PAÍS


I know from reading comments on forums that a number of people are very worried about the requirement to declare their overseas assets, but really, at least people could make sure they understand what it is they're worried about before using it as a reason for wanting to leave Spain! "In Greece they took money out of people's bank accounts" said one of the British residents quoted in the article, and "we all know Spain needs money and it might happen here too".

Well firstly that was in Cyprus not Greece, for a very particular reason relating to that country's economy being extremely over-reliant on the financial services industry and, allegedly, a great deal of money from dubious sources sloshing about in bank accounts there. And secondly, the Spanish Government is in such desperate need of money that they've just announced cuts in income tax from the start of next year (reduction of more than 4% for people on the lowest incomes) and refused to increase IVA any further despite pressure from the EU and the IMF to do so. 

I can't for the life of me see why anybody has reason to fear declaring their assets unless they have previously failed to do so on their annual tax returns.

And as for rising electricity prices, the cost of electricity has actually gone down in recent months (the first six months of this year) - although it did certainly increase during the last five years or so. Then again, if the people quoted in the article expect electricity and gas prices to go down once they return to the UK, I fear they may be in for a nasty shock. Despite wholesale energy prices having fallen substantially since the large price rises imposed by British utility companies last autumn, none of them has reduced their prices accordingly.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> I can't for the life of me see why anybody has reason to fear declaring their assets unless they have previously failed to do so on their annual tax returns.


Well!

I have quite a lot of sympathy for the view being expressed. I wouldn't trust the spanish tax man further than I could push him out of the window. Be under no illusions—if the proverbial ever did actually hit the fan, governments will raid peoples' bank accounts if they feel the need to. I have no doubts about that whatsoever. Christine Lagarde MD/CEO of the IMF sent out a policy document to all EU governments recommending they do just that if the economic situation of the UK seriously worsened.

Whether it will actually happen or not remains to be seen—and it depends almost entirely on how well the EU and individual EU states negotiate their way of out of the economic mess they've got themselves into.

The threat of governments stealing citizens' money from their bank accounts is a very real one and the fact that Cyprus had to do it set a very worrying precedent for all the others to follow.

It's highly unlikely it would ever happen in more 'economically robust' EU states—things would have to get really bad indeed for that to happen, but who knows what the future holds? 

We've already had one serious financial wobble—there's no reason to believe it won't happen again—particularly as the politicians who run governments and the EU never seem to learn from their past mistakes.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

By the time the government get round to raiding my accounts, I shall have drunk it all, hic, I'm shtaying here, hic.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

zenkarma said:


> Well!
> 
> I have quite a lot of sympathy for the view being expressed. I wouldn't trust the spanish tax man further than I could push him out of the window. Be under no illusions—if the proverbial ever did actually hit the fan, governments will raid peoples' bank accounts if they feel the need to. I have no doubts about that whatsoever. Christine Lagarde MD/CEO of the IMF sent out a policy document to all EU governments recommending they do just that if the economic situation of the UK seriously worsened.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't the Hacienda rob the accounts in Spain , not accounts abroad, just like Cyprus robbed the bank accounts in its own country


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> Wouldn't the Hacienda rob the accounts in Spain , not accounts abroad, just like Cyprus robbed the bank accounts in its own country


If Spain were going to do that, wouldn't it have done it at the point when it was at rock-bottom and had to go cap in hand to the EU? It's done all the things the troika wanted and now (supposedly) is on the road to recovery. 

Besides, Cyprus was a banking haven for Russian plutocrats, that isn't the case here. They aren't going to enrage their own supporters.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Re the "brain drain" of educated young Spaniards - I heard something on the BBC news this morning (from The Times??) that all the Spanish immigrants in London were pushing up rents. 

I'm delighted to hear that these young people who've had to leave their homeland to find work are getting jobs that are sufficiently well-paid to afford London rents! The ones I know who have gone over are sleeping on friends' sofas and working for the minimum wage in coffee shops or warehouses.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Another reason why I find it difficult to understand British pensioners who are quoted as saying they want to return to the UK as it's too expensive to live here now is that we are now benefiting from the best exchange rate against sterling (€1.2569 right now) that we've seen for years, so anybody receiving their pension or other income from the UK must be feeling better off, surely?

As Alcalaina said, I could understand it better a few years ago when things were looking increasingly shaky, but now, no.

I do understand that many will want to return to their home country when they reach the stage of becoming frail and needing care, or are bereaved, but that has always been the case and I don't see that the recession has any bearing on that. Of course, anyone who has savings of over £23,000 has to pay for any assistance they receive anyway (at hourly rates which are higher than one might expect to pay in Spain) so personally if that time comes for me I'd rather stay here and pay less than I'd have to back there. Same with care homes (although I'd rather take the euthanasia option if I could than go into one) - I've heard €2,000 per month quoted as a typical cost for a Spanish one, the one my sister works in in the UK (which is not in the most expensive area of England) charges £3,000 per month and much more for the specialist dementia unit).

I'm seeing more and more reports suggesting that UK residents be charged a fee to see their GP in future (typically £10 per visit) as a way to increase funding for the NHS. If that happens, it'll make the maximum €8 per month that pensioners pay for prescriptions here look like chickenfeed.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

zenkarma said:


> Well!
> 
> I have quite a lot of sympathy for the view being expressed. I wouldn't trust the spanish tax man further than I could push him out of the window. Be under no illusions—if the proverbial ever did actually hit the fan, governments will raid peoples' bank accounts if they feel the need to. I have no doubts about that whatsoever. Christine Lagarde MD/CEO of the IMF sent out a policy document to all EU governments recommending they do just that if the economic situation of the UK seriously worsened.
> 
> ...


As I understand it, what has been put in place is an EU agreement that in case of any future bank failures, then it is the depositors who will have to "bail them out" by a haircut on their deposits (over and above the amount guaranteed) rather than the taxpayers. I can't really argue against that as it seems the only thing that might ensure the bankers act more responsibly in future.

The other thing indicating Spain (as a country) is on a more sound financial footing now is the fact that they are now able to borrow money cheaper than the UK can.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> Another reason why I find it difficult to understand British pensioners who are quoted as saying they want to return to the UK as it's too expensive to live here now is that we are now benefiting from the best exchange rate against sterling (€1.2569 right now) that we've seen for years, so anybody receiving their pension or other income from the UK must be feeling better off, surely?
> 
> As Alcalaina said, I could understand it better a few years ago when things were looking increasingly shaky, but now, no.
> 
> ...


The reports about paying to see the GP in the Uk are scaremongering- can't see it happening.
I pay more than 8 euros a month, often 15-18 for prescriptions. It's not automatically stopped at 8 euros , though some regions have a eyes them which has tax info on the medical card.
Claiming it back is a laborious procedure, probably because they hope you can't be bothered
As for long term care it's not ideal in either country, but much better in UK, better support.
Any savings on IBI etc ere wiped out by visiting relatives in the UK, paying accountants, interpreters, security.if you don't smoke or drink alcohol, there are few savings.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> The reports about paying to see the GP in the Uk are scaremongering- can't see it happening.


Oh, just like the reports that hundreds of thousands of expats were going to suffer draconian fines for mistakes on their 720 declarations, then.

I don't have to spend any money on interpreters - I learned the language.

Co-incidentally, there's an item on BBC news right now about cuts in funding, and increased charges imposed for, adult care services in the UK. Across the country, Councils are spending £266M less this year on this, at a time when demand is increasing fast due to the ageing population. Users of a day centre were featured, who now have to pay £20 per session.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

extranjero said:


> The reports about paying to see the GP in the Uk are scaremongering- can't see it happening.


Even if that were to be implemented, I doubt it would apply to those who already are exempt from prescription charges etc

Jo xxx


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> Oh, just like the reports that hundreds of thousands of expats were going to suffer draconian fines for mistakes on their 720 declarations, then.
> 
> I don't have to spend any money on interpreters - I learned the language.


Bully for you,but the fact is, most do not have your language skills, and will need an intererpreter , especially for legal matters, and visits to the doctor.
I speak reasonable Spanish, but would use an interpreter for an official letter, or when visiting a medical consultant.
As for draconian fines, that's the language used by the Hacienda itself, to scare people into submitting 720 s, but It's had the opposite effect.
No doubt they will pick on a random few to make an example of them.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Same article in English - for those who haven't learned the language 
Bye bye España | In English | EL PAÃ�S


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

We are coming back next week. Happy half time immigrants here. Looking forward to cafe con leche, jamon, gambas, pollo asado, mutant peppers, some apple drink that I do not know the name of, sun rises, sun sets, beaches, cactus, El Teide and a million other things.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Lynn,
A friend's father died three years ago in London and for some three months the son was paying out just under three thousand pounds per month for his father in a private clinic. Fortunately, his old man had lots of money but my friend had to get a 'power of attorney', that doesn't sound right, but had to get hold of the father's money in order to pay the fees, cos he could only afford a few months of that whack of money on his own. Since he was an only child, he was going to inherit it anyway, but it was a worry.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

extranjero said:


> Wouldn't the Hacienda rob the accounts in Spain , not accounts abroad, just like Cyprus robbed the bank accounts in its own country


Of course Spain can only levy taxes on accounts held in Spain—they cannot seize any money held in accounts overseas. 

The problem is for example, should Spain in the future decide to drastically lower the wealth tax threshold—they now (via form 720) know precisely your net worth and can tax your Spanish account accordingly.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> And as for rising electricity prices, the cost of electricity has actually gone down in recent months (the first six months of this year) - although it did certainly increase during the last five years or so. Then again, if the people quoted in the article expect electricity and gas prices to go down once they return to the UK, I fear they may be in for a nasty shock. Despite wholesale energy prices having fallen substantially since the large price rises imposed by British utility companies last autumn, none of them has reduced their prices accordingly.


As someone who pretty much moved here and continued a working lifestyle within the last year, I'll throw my tuppence worth in as far as how I've found costs different to the UK;

*Electricity* - We've found electricity to be a little less expensive. Probably down to not using the heating as much as we did in Scotland, and only using a couple of fans rather than air conditioning.

*Rent *- We rent our apartment here, and we've certainly got more for our money in Spain. We've never paid such low rent in the UK for any of our apartments, and here we have access to a pool and a terrace overlooking the beach.

*Food* - Apples & oranges really. Not much of a change in cost, more a change in what we buy. Less frozen foods and less junk than the UK, but we've increased our fruit & veg, and we also buy water now being as we were used to the Scottish water before coming here.

*Internet & TV* - No difference. We pay the same roughly for Telefonica TV as we did for Sky. I had sports in the UK, and I have the equivalent here.

*Mobile phones* - No difference.

*Petrol* - About the same.

*Public transport* - I find the train service here to be excellent. It's also cheaper than Glasgow.



jojo said:


> Even if that were to be implemented, I doubt it would apply to those who already are exempt from prescription charges etc
> 
> Jo xxx


Which is everyone where I come from


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The cost of living in the Canary Isles is far far cheaper than the U.K. Diesel and Petrol just over 1€ per litre.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

maxd said:


> We are coming back next week. Happy half time immigrants here. Looking forward to cafe con leche, jamon, gambas, pollo asado, mutant peppers, some apple drink that I do not know the name of, sun rises, sun sets, beaches, cactus, El Teide and a million other things.



mutant peppers


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> As for long term care it's not ideal in either country, but much better in UK, better support.
> .


Now this is a perfect example of why I think I'd as soon stay in Spain as return to the UK if I get to the stage of living alone and needing care.

Moment cleaner is caught on secret camera stealing £200 from woman, 99 | Mail Online

It caught my eye because it happened in the town where my family live, from where I've just returned after spending some time providing post-operative care for my 90 year old aunt (although I don't know any of the people involved).

When my Dad was in hospital I looked into home care services in case he was able to be discharged, and discovered that the care that could be organised via Social Services (which he would have had to pay for as his savings were well over the limit) would be personal care, help with dressing, washing and meals only. Any help needed with cleaning, laundry, or shopping would have to be either provided by the family or organised and paid for separately - leaving him at the mercy of people like the woman in this article. 

Yes, I have read of similar very nasty cases happening here in Spain. But if they happen there as well as here, and it costs more to pay for the support in the UK, I don't see the point of uprooting myself and going back to run through more money than I'd have to spend here.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

But are the same services available in Spain?
When someone has a hip replacement in the UK, a team go to the house, assess whether aids, handles in toilet, raised toilet seat are needed etc.
Before discharge a physiotherapist ensured the patient could manage the stairs was mobile, instructed him as to precautions to take to avoid dislocation.
A Zimmer, crutches are provided on loan.
When my neighbour had a hip replacement in Spain last year, when we visited, he hadn't been sat out in the chair, let alone mobilised, he had had no instruction as to moving correctly, no advice, no physio., his wife borrowed a walking frame and crutches from another neigbour.
No one bothered as to whether he was going to manage at home.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> But are the same services available in Spain?
> When someone has a hip replacement in the UK, a team go to the house, assess whether aids, handles in toilet, raised toilet seat are needed etc.
> Before discharge a physiotherapist ensured the patient could manage the stairs was mobile, instructed him as to precautions to take to avoid dislocation.
> A Zimmer, crutches are provided on loan.
> ...



I well remember my father being taken from hospital for a home visit with a physiotherapist, in order to assess whether he would be able to cope at home following his stroke. He was very excited about it as he thought it meant he would be going home.

Trouble was, he had a severe infection in his foot at the time (arising from a lack of diabetic foot care during his time in hospital). I spoke to a Staff Nurse (the most senior member of nursing staff on duty at the time) the following day when I went to visit to say we were very concerned about how he would manage, and was blithely assured that there would be no problem as the District Nurses would visit to change his dressings. The day after that, when I arrived at the start of visiting time there was an orthopaedic surgeon at my father's bedside advising him that his foot was to be amputated. He never did get to leave hospital, and he was so upset because he'd thought he was going home. To put it bluntly, half the staff didn't appear to know what the other half was doing.

I hope you will excuse me, therefore, if I am rather sceptical to say the least about the quality of all this support and care available in the UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The reports about paying to see the GP in the Uk are scaremongering- can't see it happening.
> I pay more than 8 euros a month, often 15-18 for prescriptions. It's not automatically stopped at 8 euros , though some regions have a eyes them which has tax info on the medical card.
> Claiming it back is a laborious procedure, probably because they hope you can't be bothered
> As for long term care it's not ideal in either country, but much better in UK, better support.
> Any savings on IBI etc ere wiped out by visiting relatives in the UK, paying accountants, interpreters, security.if you don't smoke or drink alcohol, there are few savings.


Learn Spanish. No need for interpreters then. 

I can believe that afee could be introduced for visiting a GP. It is a serious suggestion, not scaremongering. Besides, this current Government are hell- bent on privatising what's not already been sold off.

Whereas here I can go to my village consultorio at 09.00 or even later and get a same- day appointment.

My prescription, which will last me as long as I live, consists of five different lots of pills. A month's supply costs me €1.20 and I am one of those 'plutocrat pensioners' you so often allude to
I thank my lucky starsthat my problem has been diagnosed here in Andalucia and not in my NHS Trust region back in the UK where you are as likely to be killed as cured, according to recent reports. 
I am flying to the UK on Thursday for a big family party but tbh I am not looking forward to it. My family and friends come here to visit so there is nothing whatsoever to lure me to the UK. I shall be happy to setfoot on Spanish soil again.

It's good that people who for whatever reason are unhappy inSpain should leave. No point staying and whingeing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Surely anyone living here should already have declared these assets ? Modelo 720 doesn't ask for any new information. 

Is it possible that somepeople are leaving because they've been living off rental income received from properties they ownin Spain, the UK or both countries but up to now have not declared to either HMRC or Hacienda?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I can believe that afee could be introduced for visiting a GP. It is a serious suggestion, not scaremongering. Besides, this current Government are hell- bent on privatising what's not already been sold off.
> 
> Whereas here I can go to my village consultorio at 09.00 or even later and get a same- day appointment.
> 
> ...


Another suggestion (and it is only a suggestion at present) is Frank Field's proposal that pensioners should pay National Insurance in future to help fund the NHS. As the coalition has asked him to be one of their advisers on this question, one must assume they will at least consider it.

However, as regards the NHS I must be fair and say I was impressed by the treatment my aunt received when she had her cataract removal op a few weeks ago. All the day surgery arrangements worked very well and the staff we came into contact with were excellent. I had to contact her GP's surgery to request an appointment for her about another matter - I rang at 8.30 am and was given an appointment for 11.40 that morning (she saw a very nice young Polish doctor btw). The problems, as far as I can see, are more to do with inpatient care than community services, although one of the District Nurses who came to see her did say they were all very concerned about whether the service would still be around in a few years' time.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Another suggestion (and it is only a suggestion at present) is Frank Field's proposal that pensioners should pay National Insurance in future to help fund the NHS. As the coalition has asked him to be one of their advisers on this question, one must assume they will at least consider it.
> 
> However, as regards the NHS I must be fair and say I was impressed by the treatment my aunt received when she had her cataract removal op a few weeks ago. All the day surgery arrangements worked very well and the staff we came into contact with were excellent. I had to contact her GP's surgery to request an appointment for her about another matter - I rang at 8.30 am and was given an appointment for 11.40 that morning (she saw a very nice young Polish doctor btw). The problems, as far as I can see, are more to do with inpatient care than community services, although one of the District Nurses who came to see her did say they were all very concerned about whether the service would still be around in a few years' time.



It's been my good fortune never to have needed hospital treatment in theUK, same with all my family. My mother and grandmother both died in their beds at home, neither of them had ever been in hospital. So I can't speak from direct personal experience.
But Sandra was not happy with the treatment her mother received in a Glasgow hospital when she was diagnosed with cancer.
She was however well cared for in the Paisley hospice where she ended her days.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Learn Spanish. No need for interpreters then.
> 
> I can believe that afee could be introduced for visiting a GP. It is a serious suggestion, not scaremongering. Besides, this current Government are hell- bent on privatising what's not already been sold off.
> 
> ...


You are indeed lucky that you pay so little per month for your prescriptions.
The fee for visiting GPs has often come up , but I do not see it being implemented, being against the principle of the NHS, care being free etc etc, but I do agree with a suggestion that a fee of £10 could be charged for missing an appointment.
As for learning Spanish, my Spanish is reasonable, but many will not attain the fluency required to deal with some matters.it's easy to say " just learn Spanish."
As to anyone not happy in Spain should leave, most can't just grab a suitcase and leave.
As to Lynne R's points, I have been involved with arranging care for people leaving hospital , and, properly organised it works well. Of course sometimes there are problems as there are anywhere.
The NHS warts and all is still the finest in the world, and many are grateful to avail themselves of its services, even those who have retired here!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> You are indeed lucky that you pay so little per month for your prescriptions.
> The fee for visiting GPs has often come up , but I do not see it being implemented, being against the principle of the NHS, care being free etc etc, but I do agree with a suggestion that a fee of £10 could be charged for missing an appointment.
> As for learning Spanish, my Spanish is reasonable, but many will not attain the fluency required to deal with some matters.it's easy to say " just learn Spanish."
> As to anyone not happy in Spain should leave, most can't just grab a suitcase and leave.
> ...


They are using it illegally, though, aren't they...and probably because in spite of living here for many years they speak little or no Spanish. My Spanish leaves much to be desired but me defiendo...

I wish that what you say about the NHS were true...but the original free at the point of use ethos has, sadly, long gone. Successive Labour and Tory Governments have chipped awáy at it over the years, introduced pointless 'reforms', brought in too many layers of management... Quality seems to depend on a post code lottery...far too many NHS Trusts are poorly managed and we've seen too many avoidable cases of poor treatment and downright malpractice and neglect.

We are fortunate here in Andalucia to have an excellent service. I've had a lot of experience of it lately and the professionalism and kindliness has been simply outstanding.

I've no idea why I pay so little for fairly expensive drugs. When I've queried the charge I've been told notto worry about it. I'd happily pay more!
...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> But are the same services available in Spain?
> When someone has a hip replacement in the UK, a team go to the house, assess whether aids, handles in toilet, raised toilet seat are needed etc.
> Before discharge a physiotherapist ensured the patient could manage the stairs was mobile, instructed him as to precautions to take to avoid dislocation.
> A Zimmer, crutches are provided on loan.
> ...


That's the big difference, the lack of aftercare. In the UK, local authority social services take over from the NHS when the medical treatment is finished - in theory at least. There is no real equivalent here, other than charities and the church. It's up to the family to make things happen. The "Ley de Dependencia" passed by the last government, giving them financial support, is in limbo because of the cuts. 

We have just had a horrible case here where a woman with Alzheimers was dependent on her two sons to look after her. One is a drug addict and the other one is schizophrenic. One of them stabbed his brother last week, and when the police went to their house they found the mother tied to a chair. She is now in the hospice being looked after by nuns.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Well, true to the title of the thread it could actually be "bye bye Spain" for me pretty soon


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

extranjero said:


> But are the same services available in Spain?
> When someone has a hip replacement in the UK, a team go to the house, assess whether aids, handles in toilet, raised toilet seat are needed etc.
> Before discharge a physiotherapist ensured the patient could manage the stairs was mobile, instructed him as to precautions to take to avoid dislocation.
> A Zimmer, crutches are provided on loan.
> ...


I think things are changing or have changed in the UK. My mum had an unscheduled hip replacement last year and my dad, her primary carer, was operated on for cancer a few months later so I know what I'm talking about in the WSM area at least. Whilst more help was offered than in Spain, it was definitely lacking in some areas too. Some help is not offered, you have to ask for it, so therefore you have to know that it's available to be able to do so - in my mum's case she was never offered handles , raised toilet seat etc even though she had very reduced mobility when she was discharged. Months later, through a cousin of mine who works in this area, we managed to get a home assessment. By this time we'd already had a couple of falls and mum's mobility is even more reduced. Even though her doctor was seeing her regularly for various minor ailments, knew their ages (86 and 87at the time) and knew my father's medical history no extra help was forthcoming initially. I believe they have to pay towards the help they are getting now. Also she has had no more physio even though she desperately needs it and there are people around her every day who can make that call.
So you don't get any of that in Spain, but at least you know that you're on your own from the start! And physio is usually everyday until you get better and in the UK it tends to be much less than that.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

David1979 said:


> Well, true to the title of the thread it could actually be "bye bye Spain" for me pretty soon


???


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ???


The other half has been offered a very lucrative position in the UK, and as my work isn't location-specific I don't really have to be in one particular place.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

David1979 said:


> The other half has been offered a very lucrative position in the UK, and as my work isn't location-specific I don't really have to be in one particular place.


Hope you keep posting though. As far as the forum goes, once an expat, always an expat ... some have been gone for years!


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Hope you keep posting though. As far as the forum goes, once an expat, always an expat ... some have been gone for years!


Oh yeah, I'll continue posting!

Our plan is to buy a little apartment that we can visit for short breaks and come to stay in through the summer, so Spain won't be a thing of the past.

You all ain't getting rid of me that easily!


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm not condoning people working illegally (even if I do understand it some situations), but it really does beg the question why Spain doesn't take a serious look at its self-employment system? It's clear it isn't working, so why simply continue along as is?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> I'm not condoning people working illegally (even if I do understand it some situations), but it really does beg the question why Spain doesn't take a serious look at its self-employment system? It's clear it isn't working, so why simply continue along as is?


they did make some changes last October. 

new registrations now only pay +/- 50€ a month to begin with, gradually increasing over 2 years to the full amount

maybe not enough of a change, but certainly an improvement & enough to give a new business a kick-start

I saw something on my gestor's page the other day about something else just changing/about to change - I'll dig it out & post it here if it's relevant


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

I've not lived in many places, but my experience in Canada, Spain and the UK would tell me that the self-employed tax system here is completely out of whack with what's required.

Surely a system like the UK would greatly improve the landscape for those who work for themselves in this country?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> I've not lived in many places, but my experience in Canada, Spain and the UK would tell me that the self-employed tax system here is completely out of whack with what's required.
> 
> Surely a system like the UK would greatly improve the landscape for those who work for themselves in this country?


it's not the tax - it's the NI payments

the tax is the same as for anyone else


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> it's not the tax - it's the NI payments
> 
> the tax is the same as for anyone else


Yeah, you know what I mean though, right?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> Yeah, you know what I mean though, right?


I did - just thought I'd clarify for anyone reading who didn't


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> I've not lived in many places, but my experience in Canada, Spain and the UK would tell me that the self-employed tax system here is completely out of whack with what's required.
> 
> Surely a system like the UK would greatly improve the landscape for those who work for themselves in this country?


As Xavia has said, there have been improvements. The issue is the question of funding welfare benefits like paro and health coverage.

The tax regime in the UK of course varies as to whether you are self- employed sole trader or employer yourself. The taxes you pay will depend on number of employees, turnover and of course profit. Some businesses such as ours are taxed on other activities such as licences and other certificates and permits.

Whatever the tax regime, people will complain. Everyone would like to pay less tax. But as Lynn pointed out on another thread, people also want to enjoy the benefits taxation pays for.

My view of tax is the same as my view on wages: if you can't afford to pay due tax or pay your employees a decent wage you shouldn't be in business. After all, ifyou have paid into the system you are entitled to assistance. If not, you end up like the poster on another thread who after years of working illegally and finding work had dried up was in a desperate situation.

Why do you think the UK system is better? Of course access to UK benefits is residence not contribution based.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

David1979 - you are absolutely right. The self employed tax regime is absurd and could almost have been designed to encourage black working. 

This includes the monthly autonomo payment, quarterly tax returns, the need for official 'facturas' rather than just a receipt and no IVA exemption for small businesses.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I can appreciate that the level of social security contributions in Spain is very high, particularly for the self-employed who may not be earning very much.

However, the other side of the coin is that people working in Spain are, therefore, paying a REALISTIC amount towards the cost of their healthcare and also their pensions - which could be why Spanish pensioners, if they have a full contribution history, are able to retire on such a high percentage of their former earnings rather than the measly amount of basic state pension paid in the UK. Could also go some way to explaining why, until the current austerity cuts started biting, Spanish state healthcare was rated so highly.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> David1979 - you are absolutely right. The self employed tax regime is absurd and could almost have been designed to encourage black working.
> 
> This includes the monthly autonomo payment, quarterly tax returns, the need for official 'facturas' rather than just a receipt and no IVA exemption for small businesses.


The 'no IVA exemption' is absurd.
Areyou querying the amount or existence of autonomo? What other method of funding for social benefits would you prefer?
By 'official factura' do you mean a detailed invoice with breakdown of labour, parts if appropriate? If so, most UK businesses do that.
As for tax...every three months UK businesses have to return tax and National Insurance records to HMRC. At the end of the financial year the yearly tax return is sent to Company House not HMRC if the business is a Limited Company.

I suspect we are talking here about one- man - bands, outfits which would presumably have sole trader status in the UK. I can see that there could be a good case for special treatment here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I can appreciate that the level of social security contributions in Spain is very high, particularly for the self-employed who may not be earning very much.
> 
> However, the other side of the coin is that people working in Spain are, therefore, paying a REALISTIC amount towards the cost of their healthcare and also their pensions - which could be why Spanish pensioners, if they have a full contribution history, are able to retire on such a high percentage of their former earnings rather than the measly amount of basic state pension paid in the UK. Could also go some way to explaining why, until the current austerity cuts started biting, Spanish state healthcare was rated so highly.


And that is the crux of the matter. State, regional and local government services have to be paid for in one way or another.
Having a greater income regardless of these considerations is surely a short- sighted view. Some immigrants may not be in Spain for the long- term so won't b that concerned about pensions but being legal does give you access to paro and health care benefits which you would be unable to otherwise afford.
If you could afford them, you could afford to pay your taxes.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The 'no IVA exemption' is absurd.
> Areyou querying the amount or existence of autonomo? What other method of funding for social benefits would you prefer?
> By 'official factura' do you mean a detailed invoice with breakdown of labour, parts if appropriate? If so, most UK businesses do that.
> As for tax...every three months UK businesses have to return tax and National Insurance records to HMRC. At the end of the financial year the yearly tax return is sent to Company House not HMRC if the business is a Limited Company.
> ...


I'm querying the amount. In the UK it is £11 per month and nothing under some circumstances. In Spain it is around 300 Euros.

By Official Factura I mean one with your name, address and DNI on it. You can't just pick up a receipt for petrol or envelopes or anything. We were registered with about 15 different suppliers and had to buy everything from them else it was a pain. It was a pain anyway - you often had to go and queue at a different desk for your factura - it was the customer service desk at Carrefour - nightmare. 

What happens in reality (I'm told) is that you have a number of favourite suppliers who will make up a factura for you for whatever value you want. If you can't get enough facturas together you just lie about your income. This is common practice ... so I'm told.

When I had businesses in the UK I had to account for VAT every three months but income was once a year. Yes - we are obviously talking one-man-bands, anything more than that would be VAT registered and probably have a payroll which is a whole different ballgame.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> And that is the crux of the matter. State, regional and local government services have to be paid for in one way or another.
> Having a greater income regardless of these considerations is surely a short- sighted view. Some immigrants may not be in Spain for the long- term so won't b that concerned about pensions but being legal does give you access to paro and health care benefits which you would be unable to otherwise afford.
> If you could afford them, you could afford to pay your taxes.


What I think is a short-sighted view is making things so difficult (read impossible) for a start-up that a huge number go under, go black or don't bother at all. Small businesses grow into big businesses hopefully and need space to start.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato;4766
When I had businesses in the UK I had to account for VAT every three months but income was once a year. Yes - we are obviously talking one-man-bands said:


> In which case I agree with you.
> We had to submit ' proper' receipts for tax and audit purposes but companies usually set up accounts with suppliers for various goods and services which I suppose makes it easier for accounting purposes.
> Sandra moaned a lot about red tape and unnecessary paperwork when she ran her UK business. My son complains too, chiefly about HMRC.
> I think it's an occupational disease of business owners.
> Thankfully I was employed throughout my working life on someone else's payroll.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> What I think is a short-sighted view is making things so difficult (read impossible) for a start-up that a huge number go under, go black or don't bother at all. Small businesses grow into big businesses hopefully and need space to start.


Most start-ups that have real growth potential also need seed corn capital. That's a big problem in the UK in spite of banks being give huge amounts of public money so I'mguessing it's as difficult here.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> And that is the crux of the matter. State, regional and local government services have to be paid for in one way or another.
> Having a greater income regardless of these considerations is surely a short- sighted view. Some immigrants may not be in Spain for the long- term so won't b that concerned about pensions but being legal does give you access to paro and health care benefits which you would be unable to otherwise afford.
> If you could afford them, you could afford to pay your taxes.


Neither Spain nor any other country can nor should organise it's tax and social security system for the benefits of immigrants, though, as I'm sure you will agree.

I could see advantages if the UK were to adopt a pensions system more like Spain's (and I believe other European countries are similar) where people pay higher NI contributions but their pensions are then based on a proportion of their earnings. That could enable additional contributions into occupational schemes to be scrapped (most of which are defined contribution schemes now which are hardly worth having IMO and don't provide any guarantee of a decent income in retirement) and get rid of the eternal jealousy and resentment expressed towards those who have worked in the public sector and been able to pay into final salary schemes. It would feel fairer, I believe, as those who have paid in more would retire on a higher state pension, related to their previous earnings, than those who've paid less (or nothing at all in the case of anyone who has been on benefits all their life).

If people wanted, and were able, to save/invest more towards their retirement, they would be free to do so by other means.

Wouldn't go down at all well with the financial services industry though, would it? Less opportunity for people to be ripped off, after all, and that would never do.

Coincidentally, there's a report out today that average pensions in Spain have now topped the €1,000 per month mark.
La pensi?n media de jubilaci?n alcanza por primera vez los 1.000 euros al mes | Econom?a | EL MUNDO

For a supposedly poor country with an inadequate benefits system, that's not too shabby.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> What I think is a short-sighted view is making things so difficult (read impossible) for a start-up that a huge number go under, go black or don't bother at all. Small businesses grow into big businesses hopefully and need space to start.


When I first came here in 2006 Andalucia gave tax breaks to new ventures, notably by women in rural areas. Some of them grew into successful, job-creating businesses in areas were there was previously nothing much at all. Once they became profitable, they started paying into the system. This surely has to be a better option than penalising them from Day One with heavy costs.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Coincidentally, there's a report out today that average pensions in Spain have now topped the €1,000 per month mark.
> La pensi?n media de jubilaci?n alcanza por primera vez los 1.000 euros al mes | Econom?a | EL MUNDO
> 
> For a supposedly poor country with an inadequate benefits system, that's not too shabby.


But that's inflated by the funcionarios and politicians, who have always had excellent pensions. At the other end of the scale there are millions of casual labourers, especially in agriculture, who get less than €400. And no top-up system like in the UK, other than discretionary payments made locally.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> But that's inflated by the funcionarios and politicians, who have always had excellent pensions. At the other end of the scale there are millions of casual labourers, especially in agriculture, who get less than €400. And no top-up system like in the UK, other than discretionary payments made locally.


Are the casual workers in that situation because they haven't made the minimum 15 years' contributions? The minimum pensions payable to the majority don't seem too bad according to this article, roughly comparable to what someone claiming Pension Credit would get in the UK, with additional amounts payable to pensioners with severe disabilities:-

La pensi?n m?nima de jubilaci?n con c?nyuge ser? de 10.932 euros en 2014 - ABC.es


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Most start-ups that have real growth potential also need seed corn capital. That's a big problem in the UK in spite of banks being give huge amounts of public money so I'mguessing it's as difficult here.


There are grants (not loans) that our gestor used to advise us of from time-to-time. These can be quite generous but you have to jump through hoops to get them and they come with strong strings attached (like you have to give it back if you abandon the business within a certain timescale). We didn't apply.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Why do you think the UK system is better? Of course access to UK benefits is residence not contribution based.


Because if I'm a self-employed gardener I'm not being asked to pay over £150 autonomo every month regardless of my income, am I?

It's absolutely mental, and seems like a system designed to actively discourage free enterprise and small businesses.

Are we sure Franco is actually dead?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Are the casual workers in that situation because they haven't made the minimum 15 years' contributions? The minimum pensions payable to the majority don't seem too bad according to this article, roughly comparable to what someone claiming Pension Credit would get in the UK, with additional amounts payable to pensioners with severe disabilities:-
> 
> La pensi?n m?nima de jubilaci?n con c?nyuge ser? de 10.932 euros en 2014 - ABC.es


More likely their employers didn't make the contributions. Even today, it's still common to pay cash in hand for a few days' work - things like clearing the dead wood in the cork forests. (And the landowners are some of the wealthiest people in Spain - it's not like they can't afford it.)

My friend's father worked for 50 years on this basis and gets a pension of €350 a month, mostly from the Junta or the Ayto (can't remember which). She says this is not uncommon in rural areas.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> Because if I'm a self-employed gardener I'm not being asked to pay over £150 autonomo every month regardless of my income, am I?
> 
> It's absolutely mental, and seems like a system designed to actively discourage free enterprise and small businesses.
> 
> Are we sure Franco is actually dead?


I get your point and yes, it seems unfair. But if you are earning 1000€ a month then it's 15% which compares favourably with UK tax and NI combined.
But if you're not....
Maybe there should be an annual declaration? Could the Seg Soc be separated from the tax component?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Neither Spain nor any other country can nor should organise it's tax and social security system for the benefits of immigrants, though, as I'm sure you will agree.
> 
> I could see advantages if the UK were to adopt a pensions system more like Spain's (and I believe other European countries are similar) where people pay higher NI contributions but their pensions are then based on a proportion of their earnings. That could enable additional contributions into occupational schemes to be scrapped (most of which are defined contribution schemes now which are hardly worth having IMO and don't provide any guarantee of a decent income in retirement) and get rid of the eternal jealousy and resentment expressed towards those who have worked in the public sector and been able to pay into final salary schemes. It would feel fairer, I believe, as those who have paid in more would retire on a higher state pension, related to their previous earnings, than those who've paid less (or nothing at all in the case of anyone who has been on benefits all their life).
> 
> ...


I would have been very happy to have paid more tax/NI whilst working. Instead as you point out I paid a lotto financial institutions so I could supplement my retirement income.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I get your point and yes, it seems unfair. But if you are earning 1000€ a month then it's 15% which compares favourably with UK tax and NI combined.


Yes, anyone who is running a business with a somewhat steady flow of income every month can deal with the current system, no doubt.

What I'm talking about are the smaller one man band type operations who don't know what they'll be making day to day, never mind month to month. These are the people operating in the black for the most part.

Something has to be done to entice them into declaring their businesses, and allowing them to enjoy the benefits that paying into the system would give them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

David1979 said:


> Yes, anyone who is running a business with a somewhat steady flow of income every month can deal with the current system, no doubt.
> 
> What I'm talking about are the smaller one man band type operations who don't know what they'll be making day to day, never mind month to month. These are the people operating in the black for the most part.
> 
> Something has to be done to entice them into declaring their businesses, and allowing them to enjoy the benefits that paying into the system would give them.


As I said, we're talking not so much 'businesspeople' as sole traders, one-man bands. 
Yes, the current system for these people, or some of them, is unfairly skewed. But these 'sole traders' can be plumbers, electricians, carpenters and other skilled people who usually can earn a reasonable living. So they can pay tax, surely?

What kind of work are we actually talking about here....so far we've mentioned pool cleaners, gardeners, fruit sellers...These people often offer themselves for very low wages to people who can afford to pay more. They undercut small legitimate businesses with employees.

One way or another these workers must pay into the system to get a decent level of benefit. It's a bit much to expect often struggling legitimate small businesses to subsidise people who undercut them.

What would you suggest? One obvious step is to tax annually, not monthly. IVA liability should be axed.

I suspect that pool cleaning etc. is the first port of call of the immigrant working on the black.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> As I said, we're talking not so much 'businesspeople' as sole traders, one-man bands.
> Yes, the current system for these people, or some of them, is unfairly skewed. But these 'sole traders' can be plumbers, electricians, carpenters and other skilled people who usually can earn a reasonable living. So they can pay tax, surely?
> 
> What kind of work are we actually talking about here....so far we've mentioned pool cleaners, gardeners, fruit sellers...These people often offer themselves for very low wages to people who can afford to pay more. They undercut small legitimate businesses with employees.
> ...


plenty of pool cleaners & gardeners don't work on the black of course

they are the ones with the good reputations for being reliable, for having been around a long time & they will still be here next year - & they'll be insured if something goes wrong

you might have to pay more - but in the long run it's usually worth it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> plenty of pool cleaners & gardeners don't work on the black of course
> 
> they are the ones with the good reputations for being reliable, for having been around a long time & they will still be here next year - & they'll be insured if something goes wrong
> 
> you might have to pay more - but in the long run it's usually worth it


Those were the people that these illegal 'businesspeople' are undercutting, often asking for as little as 5€ an hour. As you say, it's worth paying more.

If you can afford to run your own pool or hire a gardener you can surely afford to pay a decent rate to a legitimate firm. If you want to buy fruit, go to the greengrocer or the market. 

I'm guessing that there are language teachers working on the black, undercutting legit people like your good self. At the end of the day for all the excuses in order to get benefits from the system, you have to pay something into it, surely.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Those were the people that these illegal 'businesspeople' are undercutting, often asking for as little as 5€ an hour. As you say, it's worth paying more.
> 
> If you can afford to run your own pool or hire a gardener you can surely afford to pay a decent rate to a legitimate firm. If you want to buy fruit, go to the greengrocer or the market.
> 
> I'm guessing that there are language teachers working on the black, undercutting legit people like your good self. At the end of the day for all the excuses in order to get benefits from the system, you have to pay something into it, surely.


yep - there are language teachers - in my town - working on the black

I don't know what they do for healthcare & so on - some have 'day jobs' & do the classes as a sideline, so maybe that's how they deal with it

one has a 'black' day job & teaches nearly as many classes a week as I do - just for a bit extra  

am I jealous when I hear about the posh holidays ... hell yes! Especially when I have to say 'No' to one of my daughters - again


have I reported this person? No













not yet......


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> What would you suggest? One obvious step is to tax annually, not monthly. IVA liability should be axed.
> 
> I suspect that pool cleaning etc. is the first port of call of the immigrant working on the black.


Having previously looked into the costs of being Autonomo in Spain, we decided that there were too many hoops to jump through and lots of setup costs that you don't have in the Uk. I understand the need for expats etc to pay for financial advice.

Not too sure paying tax annually would work for someone cleaning pools, we know a lot of one man bands here (the window cleaner for one) who moans at me every year that he doesn't know where his tax money is going to come from...:frusty: I've told him many times just to take 20% every week/month whatever and either put it in another account or do like we did, buy premium bonds. The money is safe and you might just win a million. 

The IVA is a slightly different problem, having run businesses both non and Vat rated here in the Uk, the spanish system is totally different, in the Uk you charge tax and claim or pay the difference on the stuff you paid your suppliers. 
If they allowed small business's to opt out, they would still technically be paying the IVA when they buy stuff from larger suppliers, but there would be no way they could recoup those by passing it on to the end user. Except by increasing prices just like here in the UK which would price small businesses out of the market. 

Now I'm confused.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Barriej said:


> Having previously looked into the costs of being Autonomo in Spain, we decided that there were too many hoops to jump through and lots of setup costs that you don't have in the Uk. I understand the need for expats etc to pay for financial advice.
> 
> Not too sure paying tax annually would work for someone cleaning pools, we know a lot of one man bands here (the window cleaner for one) who moans at me every year that he doesn't know where his tax money is going to come from...:frusty: I've told him many times just to take 20% every week/month whatever and either put it in another account or do like we did, buy premium bonds. The money is safe and you might just win a million.
> 
> ...


You 'claim' the input tax (that you have paid to your suppliers) against the output tax (that you have charged your customers) just as in the UK as far as I am aware.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

jimenato said:


> You 'claim' the input tax (that you have paid to your suppliers) against the output tax (that you have charged your customers) just as in the UK as far as I am aware.


Opps I had forgotten that bit yes you can reclaim, although in some industries you can be exempt from IVA, from what I have heard. (charging it anyway) But you do have to register. That bit is compulsory.

And did you know things like hairdressing and Funeral services come with the highest rate of IVA? 

It wouldn't stop us from running a business in Spain, in fact at some point we probably will. But we will make sure we use professional services for Tax and IVA even if our Spanish is good. 
When I first became self-employed here in the UK I did my own taxes and VAT returns, and when I finally got to the point of being too busy to do the paperwork my accountant told me I had been overpaying for years.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Barriej said:


> Opps I had forgotten that bit yes you can reclaim, although in some industries you can be exempt from IVA, from what I have heard. (charging it anyway) But you do have to register. That bit is compulsory.
> 
> And did you know things like hairdressing and Funeral services come with the highest rate of IVA?
> 
> ...


Yes - I was a sole trader, a partner and a company director at various times in the UK and always did my own VAT returns - only using an accountant at year end. In Spain I used a gestor to do the IVA returns and that's another extra expense. 

I don't know if anyone here does their own IVA returns or is it the norm to use a gestor?


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