# Customs/taxes on parcel from Uk to France



## gprit

I know others have had this issue...! I ordered items from the Uk to France.
Mainly UK newspapers covering the Queen's Funeral, together with a couple of bottles of Dettol and some baked beans(!)

The total amount inc postage was £64, and the customs declaration stated country of Manufacture was UK.
Now my understanding is that:
_"For deliveries to France, customs duties are applied to goods coming from outside the EU that cost €150 and over. However, under the terms of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement only goods produced outside of the UK or EU are liable to customs duty. Nevertheless, there remains a requirement for customs clearance and the declaration will need to state the country of origin."_

However, my wife was charged €23 (at the door, payable by cheque to LaPoste) - no receipt or breakdown available.
Have others been successful in claiming costs back? What route does one take to do this?


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## LesFroggitts

That sounds about the correct amount for TVA and the Customs declaration costs.

GBP 64 = EUR 78 (ish) * 20% TVA = 15,36 + 8,00 for the declaration (which really is cheap).

Don't mix up duties with tva, not the same.


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## gprit

thanks for the breakdown.......the major cost of parcel was printed newspapers......dont think there should be TVA on these?


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## LesFroggitts

But to be able to differentiate between the various items within the shipment it would require a full declaration being made by La Poste rather than the simplified version that they will utilise. That would then require the presentation to the Douane the individual Harmonised System codes, weights and individual values. Doing this would then have no doubt incurred substantially higher Customs Clearance documentation/service charges that WOULD have been much higher cost to you than the potential savings in seperating out articles deemed to be TVA-free.

That would really have been a losing scenario for you.


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## gprit

"the individual Harmonised System codes, weights and individual values. "

That is already on the declaration!!!


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## LesFroggitts

gprit said:


> "the individual Harmonised System codes, weights and individual values. "
> 
> That is already on the declaration!!!


But the simplified declaration as used by cross-border postal services will not make the required seperation of goods unless you were to specifically request the service.

The simplified declaration on low-value "non-commercial" movements does not allow for that, they are all grouped together using an over-arching HS code through the Delta H7 system which allows for a drastically reduced decaration data-set (i.e. very limited/simplified declaration - effectively a ONE LINE declaration).

As your shipment was under the threshold, the carrier can choose whether to use the simplified H7 system OR use the full declaration method which trust me you would not want to use for small shipments.


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## gprit

Why not?? It is not s much the €23 charge but the principle of the thing....it is WRONG in my view in this case..


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## LesFroggitts

gprit said:


> Why not?? It is not s much the €23 charge but the principle of the thing....it is WRONG in my view in this case..


What do you mean by "why not?"

In the days before the UK's membership of the EU, we used to charge UK importers a minimum of GBP 25 for a single commodity customs clearance declaration (and of course that was a VATable service), for each additional commodity code necessary we charged GBP 2.50+VAT. Each initial declaration required around 40 data points to be completed on the first commodity, with a further 15 odd on each additional commodity code declared. Yes this is for UK bound shipments, but the same applied to shipments from the UK to the EU.

Scoot forward a few years to today, you could certainly expect those costs to have doubled. Now why would you want to go through a full declaration, which requires you being registered in advance as an importer, in order to simply make a point that your newspapers "ought" to have been TVA exempt.

You would also have had to have had the consignment status set as commercial from the onset (B2C or C2C) which would then in the current Customs arrangements have required an export declaration be made just to get your newspapers and accompanying items out of the UK.

See where I'm going with this...?

Oh and you're getting close to my consultancy fee free limits, whereafter it's probably around EUR 50 / hour or part thereof 😉


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## gprit

Ha ha.... I bow to your superior knowledge!!! ( and I am not being sarcastic). Thank you fo rthe information.
But for me it is simply wrong to apply charges to a consignment of this nature!! 

I am looking to find oit how I can contest this...again - as a matter of principle.


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## LesFroggitts

gprit said:


> Ha ha.... I bow to your superior knowledge!!! ( and I am not being sarcastic). Thank you fo rthe information.
> But for me it is simply wrong to apply charges to a consignment of this nature!!
> 
> I am looking to find oit how I can contest this...again - as a matter of principle.


I'd start with La Poste at Formulaire réclamation courrier – Service Consommateurs – La Poste if that doesn't work you may have to escalate it to the EU Commission - best of luck.

Or https://aide.laposte.fr/contact/colissimo but do read the read banner message.


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## BackinFrance

LesFroggitts said:


> I'd start with La Poste at Formulaire réclamation courrier – Service Consommateurs – La Poste if that doesn't work you may have to escalate it to the EU Commission - best of luck.
> 
> Or https://aide.laposte.fr/contact/colissimo but do read the occur ead banner message.


The OP has a thing about principle and what should or should not occur 

It's probably high time you stopped wasting your time explaining how things actually work.


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## gprit

@*BackinFrance - *I do not consider it wasted time to stand up for what i believe, and for what is correct!
Thank you for the link @*LesFroggitts*


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## Peasant

gprit said:


> thanks for the breakdown.......the major cost of parcel was printed newspapers......dont think there should be TVA on these?


I don't think that they should charge duty and VAT of shipping charges, but they don't listen to me...


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## Peasant

BackinFrance said:


> It's probably high time you stopped wasting your time explaining how things actually work.


Gaining knowledge is never a waste of time.


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## Bevdeforges

Actually, they reduced the VAT on paper and digital newspapers in France to the "super-reduced" level back in 2014. But take a look at the requirements for that:





1. TVA à taux super-réduit pour la presse papier et numérique


(Article 298 septies du Code général des impôts (CGI))Les ventes, commissions et courtages portant sur les publications de presse qui remplissent les conditions prévues aux articles 72 et 73 de l’annexe III au CGI, sont soumis à la TVA au taux de 2,10 % en métropole et en Corse, et de 1,05




www.culture.gouv.fr




Evidently, before this newspapers were subject to the whole 20% VAT rate. Things here in France don't necessarily work like how they did back "home." But I certainly understand (all too well) how difficult it is to get used to these changes when you first arrive.


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## gprit

Thank you Bev...my knowledge is increasing.....I see in that link that "The measure does not, by definition, concern the free press." - I am supposing that public newspapers are the 'free press'! Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen......reading non government topics it may well still attract the 2.10% as per your article.


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## LesFroggitts

Peasant said:


> I don't think that they should charge duty and VAT of shipping charges, but they don't listen to me...


TVA certainly should be charged at the shipping movement is a service and thus liable to the charge. As for duty, well that is possibly arguable (although I don't argue against it) as the transportation cost is part of the movement and duty is chargeable on the valuation of the goods upon arrival in the country charging it.


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## Bevdeforges

gprit said:


> Thank you Bev...my knowledge is increasing.....I see in that link that "The measure does not, by definition, concern the free press." - I am supposing that public newspapers are the 'free press'! Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen......reading non government topics it may well still attract the 2.10% as per your article.


What I tweaked on in that piece was that the publishers had to register with the French government (in some capacity) to be eligible for the reduced VAT rate. One wonders if the foreign press would even bother to register (or if they were indeed eligible to do so when the rates changed).


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## BackinFrance

gprit said:


> Thank you Bev...my knowledge is increasing.....I see in that link that "The measure does not, by definition, concern the free press." - I am supposing that public newspapers are the 'free press'! Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen......reading non government topics it may well still attract the 2.10% as per your article.


I think free press refers to publications that you don't have to pay for (reading it in context).


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## gprit

I've now looked up several definitions.....general concensus is:
"_ body of book publishers, news media, etc., not controlled or restricted by government censorship in political or ideological matters_. "


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## BackinFrance

gprit said:


> I've now looked up several definitions.....general concensus is:
> "_ body of book publishers, news media, etc., not controlled or restricted by government censorship in political or ideological matters_. "


Which however is not in the context of the section in question within Bev's link.


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## Bevdeforges

Given that the article in question is a translation from the French, I believe BiF is right - it refers to those giveaway papers you find in the Metro or in shops. As they say on the HSBC France site (the English language version)


> The English language version of this site is for your information only. In the case of any legal considerations, the French language version applies.


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## gprit

It is intreresting isn't it....I stand by the dictionary definition of 'free press'!!


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## BackinFrance

Free as in 'libre' but in this case it is free as in 'gratuit'. But have it your own way. It's not my problem.


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## Bevdeforges

The French version of that same announcement says the following:


> La mesure ne concerne pas, par définition, la presse *gratuite*.


That does seem to indicate the freebie publications rather than those evoking "la liberté d'expression." 

Though once again, you need to remember that French law does not come down to parsing specific words in the relevant texts, as English and American law seems to do.


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## gprit

ah. ...vivre la difference..


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## Crabtree

Libre means free to do something ie to be in a state of liberty
Gratuit means that there is no cost or obligation
So on entering a busy car park you can ask a passer by "Excusez moi Monsieur est-ce-qu'il y a une place libre ici?"
He helpfully replies "Oui il y en a plusiers la bas."
"Il faut payer?" "Non Monsieur le parking est gratuit dans la ville"
It can be compared to the confusion that an anglophone has over entendre/ecouter


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## Peasant

LesFroggitts said:


> TVA certainly should be charged at the shipping...


I disagree.


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## BackinFrance

Shipping is a service and services are subject to TVA.


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## Peasant

BackinFrance said:


> Shipping is a service and services are subject to TVA.


If someone ships a package from Los Angeles to Paris it a distance of about 9100km, of which only 500km is over France, so why is the entire shipping cost subject to French TVA?
Charge the TVA on the French portion of the journey, or about 5 percent of the total.


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## Bevdeforges

Peasant said:


> If someone ships a package from Los Angeles to Paris it a distance of about 9100km, of which only 500km is over France, so why is the entire shipping cost subject to French TVA?
> Charge the TVA on the French portion of the journey, or about 5 percent of the total.


Nice idea - but I don't think it will fly. It's not just France, it's just about every country with a TVA. If someone ships a package from Los Angeles to Paris, the entire cost of the contents of the package is subject to TVA, even though the articles may have been purchased in Los Angeles. Or, to be consistent, why should TVA be refunded to someone who buys something in France but who transports it "back home" right away or at the end of their visit? The "value was added" here in France and it should be irrelevant (in your scheme) where the product ends up.


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## LesFroggitts

Peasant said:


> If someone ships a package from Los Angeles to Paris it a distance of about 9100km, of which only 500km is over France, so why is the entire shipping cost subject to French TVA?
> Charge the TVA on the French portion of the journey, or about 5 percent of the total.


I don't think you can use movements from the USA as an example, that country can't even get their own internal States to agree taxation rules even to the extent of charging taxes on cross-state-line fees.

The whole point of countries charging duties, levies, excise and TVA on imports is to protect the home production/market from having their domestic markets flooded by outside materials. So to have exemptions on these charges is far from the norm.


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## BackinFrance

Peasant said:


> If someone ships a package from Los Angeles to Paris it a distance of about 9100km, of which only 500km is over France, so why is the entire shipping cost subject to French TVA?
> Charge the TVA on the French portion of the journey, or about 5 percent of the total.


I think even if they attempted to do that, there were be significant admin charges at both ends and who knows when ypu would receive your parcel given the complexities.


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## ccm47

I understand that British shops in France need to have stocks of baked beans but why would an individual need to order them from the UK? 
These days every Leclerc, SuperU and Intermarché that I visit between Bordeaux and Narbonne seems to have them on the world cuisine section. Admittedly at a price which varies from branch to branch, but they are there. 
OP may have found his additional costs on his parcel were less if he'd only ordered one type of item to be sent over at a time. As they say in logistics KISS : Keep it Simple Sender.


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## Clic Clac

gprit said:


> I know others have had this issue...! I ordered items from the Uk to France.
> Mainly UK newspapers covering the Queen's Funeral, together with a couple of bottles of Dettol and some baked beans(!)


Look on the bright side, you've probably still got a bargain.

Copies of the papers announcing her death are being offered for up to £99 a copy, so there's probably some collector value.
Not so sure for the dettol.


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## Peasant

LesFroggitts said:


> I don't think you can use movements from the USA as an example, that country can't even get their own internal States to agree taxation rules even to the extent of charging taxes on cross-state-line fees.


You don't seem to understand how interstate commerce works.
If I live in Massachusetts and buy something from a company in Kansas that company will give Massachusetts its 6% sales tax.
If I live in Oregon and buy the same thing from the same company that company won't charge any sales tax because Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.
There is no national sales tax (i.e. Value Added Tax) in the US.
The rules are relatively simple, just not what you're used to.


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## LesFroggitts

Peasant said:


> You don't seem to understand how interstate commerce works.
> If I live in Massachusetts and buy something from a company in Kansas that company will give Massachusetts its 6% sales tax.
> If I live in Oregon and buy the same thing from the same company that company won't charge any sales tax because Oregon doesn't charge sales tax.
> There is no national sales tax (i.e. Value Added Tax) in the US.
> The rules are relatively simple, just not what you're used to.


At least our shops display prices including taxes.


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## Nomoss

Seems t me it would be better to ship baked beans and newspapers separately. Simples.


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## LesFroggitts

Nomoss said:


> Seems t me it would be better to ship baked beans and newspapers separately. Simples.


But that would double the carriage costs and double the admin/customs clearance costs on arrival in France. The best option would have been to not bother with the purchase at all.


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## Nomoss

LesFroggitts said:


> But that would double the carriage costs and double the admin/customs clearance costs on arrival in France. The best option would have been to not bother with the purchase at all.


OK, post the papers, which shouldn't cost much in postage nor import charges, and buy the *DETTOL* and *BAKED BEANS* in France. Beans post free with Prime


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## Peasant

LesFroggitts said:


> At least our shops display prices including taxes.


Just one of the great things about living in France.


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