# property ownership???



## Hephesus

The question is,,,, If I buy a house and then marry a local, what part or pecentage of my property will the wife be able to claim if there were to be a divorce. Also If move into a property owned by a local but pay fot the mortgage am I entitled to any re-embersment.


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## Serendipity2

Hephesus,

I'm new here but I think I can help you. You may NOT own land - unless you're married and if the marriage goes sideways bye bye to your home. Another approach [but get legal advice first] would be to do a long term lease of a building site, with the provisio you could buy it later should you wish to, build your home and see how the marriage works out. You CAN own improvements on someone else's land so long as there is no encumbrance [mortgage] that also goes against the land. Then, after a few years, if the marriage looks solid, you exercise your option to buy the parcel and, so long as you're married to a Thai, it's yours. Again, if she gives you the boot it's hers. You CAN buy a condo since a condominium involves no ownership of land [owned by the association] so long as the majority of that association are Thais. 

Serendipidy2


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## Hephesus

*Thank you*



Serendipity2 said:


> Hephesus,
> 
> I'm new here but I think I can help you. You may NOT own land - unless you're married and if the marriage goes sideways bye bye to your home. Another approach [but get legal advice first] would be to do a long term lease of a building site, with the provisio you could buy it later should you wish to, build your home and see how the marriage works out. You CAN own improvements on someone else's land so long as there is no encumbrance [mortgage] that also goes against the land. Then, after a few years, if the marriage looks solid, you exercise your option to buy the parcel and, so long as you're married to a Thai, it's yours. Again, if she gives you the boot it's hers. You CAN buy a condo since a condominium involves no ownership of land [owned by the association] so long as the majority of that association are Thais.
> 
> Serendipidy2


As you may have gathered I am newer than most. Having travelled and bought and sold a few times I guessed there would be some wrinkles. A clearer and better expination would be hard to find. This now gives me a good basis to work with.


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## tamsin

As a farang you cannot _ever_ _own _land in your _own_ name. The last poster gave you false information in that, even if you married a Thai, the land would _not _be in joint names but in the name of the Thai spouse ONLY. Which, in the event of a divorce, would be split 50/50. But not if you bought the land prior to marriage. Any and all assets prior to marriage are yours and yours alone. 

You can protect yourself with instruments such as Usufructs (some document tacked on to the title deed enabling you stay within _your_ home on _your_ land and usually paid for with _your _money) until you die. Just flutter the piece of paper in front of your spouses's nose, and they may not try give you the bum's rush from your land/house as soon as the ink is dry on it, being a bit thick. If you have an educated one, they probably won't even try.

The other way is a 30 year lease, which despite whatever ANYONE tells you, lawyer, Big Flash Company, is *ONLY 30 YEARS*. They will get a nice farang lawyer to draw up an addendum to be attached to the Title Deed at the Land Registry all printed out took tong and riep roy showing another 30 and (sometimes another 30 year extension), but THIS IS *NOT *ENFORCEABLE UNDER THAI LAW. In fact it's illegal, but you being a farang, they don't give a toss and no one will tell you. Now you may think that at the age of 40 or 50 odd you mightn't see a 30 year lease out, but on the _other _hand, you could be sitting on the eve of your 70th or 80th birthday to be either presented with a brand spanking NEW lease extension for a 100th of the original amount you paid for the land, which by the way is usually exactly the same as if you bought it, or thrown out on to the soi with sod all and the new owner (usually the original landlord's offspring) will have a nice house to either fill with his family, or sell on. OR, you would be best advised to follow the ...

The Company route. Despite all the bru haha about Zimbabwean sequestrations of farang owned property via this route NOT ONE CASE HAS EVER HAPPENED. And it won't. Because Thais may very well be one of the most xenophobic nationalites on the face of the earth, but their also one of the most money loving (to put it politely) and don't want to kill the goose and all that. Lord. What'd happen to places like Phuket then!?

Do some research. You will see I'm right. Chock dee.


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## tamsin

As a farang you cannot _ever_ _own _land in your _own_ name. The last poster gave you false information in that, even if you married a Thai, the land would _not _be in joint names but in the name of the Thai spouse ONLY. Which, in the event of a divorce, would be split 50/50. But not if you bought the land prior to marriage. Any and all assets prior to marriage are yours and yours alone. 

You can protect yourself with instruments such as Usufructs (some document tacked on to the title deed enabling you stay within _your_ home on _your_ land and usually paid for with _your _money) until you die. Just flutter the piece of paper in front of your spouses's nose, and they may not try give you the bum's rush from your land/house as soon as the ink is dry on it, being a bit thick. If you have an educated one, they probably won't even try.

The other way is a 30 year lease, which despite whatever ANYONE tells you, lawyer, Big Flash Company, is *ONLY 30 YEARS*. They will get a nice farang lawyer to draw up an addendum to be attached to the Title Deed at the Land Registry all printed out took tong and riep roy showing another 30 and (sometimes another 30 year extension), but THIS IS *NOT *ENFORCEABLE UNDER THAI LAW. In fact it's illegal, but you being a farang, they don't give a toss and no one will tell you. Now you may think that at the age of 40 or 50 odd you mightn't see a 30 year lease out, but on the _other _hand, you could be sitting on the eve of your 70th or 80th birthday to be either presented with a brand spanking NEW lease extension for a 100th of the original amount you paid for the land, which by the way is usually exactly the same as if you bought it, or thrown out on to the soi with sod all and the new owner (usually the original landlord's offspring) will have a nice house to either fill with his family, or sell on. OR, you would be best advised to follow the ...

The Company route. Despite all the bru haha about Zimbabwean sequestrations of farang owned property via this route NOT ONE CASE HAS EVER HAPPENED. And it won't. Because Thais may very well be one of the most xenophobic nationalities on the face of the earth, but they're also one of the most money loving (to put it politely) and don't want to kill the goose and all that. Lord. What'd happen to places like Phuket then!?

Do some research. You will see I'm right. Chock dee.


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## King Silk

I formed a limited company which owns the house and I am the major share holder or MD.
The other two are sleepers. They get zilch if the company sells. I have to pay tax for the right to live in the house annually and an accountant gets 12000bht for doing the books.

I had the house prior to marriage so I had a *prenuptual agreement *signed by the fiancee 
Good job I did. It all went pair shaped and we got divorced. She got nothing accept the things I had bought for her.
Nasty things Prenupts but essential if you want to protect your property etc.


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## Serendipity2

tamsin, technically I'm sure you're correct but there are a thousand ways to skin a cat. King Silk's methodology is one very good way - and he's 'dead-on' about a prenup. 

While you may not own land I do believe you DO own the home so another method would be to get the land owner to agree to sell to you [not legal] OR your nominee [a Thai] and then, when you no longer wish to live there at least you have the entire land/home package to sell. 

I think [but am not sure] that if you form a company to own the land the majority ownership must be Thai. Again, that's what I understand not necessarily what I know. I would opt to lease the land with the irrevocable right to buy [which would include my ability to assign my right to another] THEN build my home. If I got married but owned the house beforehand then I think the home would remain mine. One way around the prenup is to give your beloved a chunk of cash which will sweeten her disposition regarding signing the prenup. She will feel much better about it and know that odds are, if she's a good wife to you, she'll end up with the house as well. Just a thought. [unless she bumped you off to hasten the aging process! :/ ]


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## tamsin

Yes I'd forgotten to add the prenup part, which is, surprisingly, enforceable here. And of course you can have the house in your name. And so it would be stalemate if the wife wanted to cash out. She having the land, you the house, and would make things very difficult for her, unless she bumped you off. And of course a chunk of change could very well see her off the property (if she wanted a chunk of change to sign a prenup, I suggest you cancel the wedding ...) But all in all, weighing it all up, I've seen a zillion problems with having the title in the wife's name, a lot of hassle, 'will they won't they extend the 30 year lease', or worse, it all goes south if the landlord dies. BUT never seen anything bad happen with the company route. The FBA thing was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and we all know _who_ the nut is. Talk about locking the stable door after the horse's bolted ...


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## King Silk

*Re the prenup*. It MUST be produced at the time of the wedding at the Amphur or it is nul and void!
A sweetener is a good idea. My Lady didn't talk to me for days after I made her sign......
Then at the time of Divorce she said she couldn't read so she had signed something without knowing what it was.....hahahahahaha. It didn't wash thankfully.
Good luck in the Minefield Gents.


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## tamsin

King Silk said:


> *Re the prenup*. It MUST be produced at the time of the wedding at the Amphur or it is nul and void!
> A sweetener is a good idea. My Lady didn't talk to me for days after I made her sign......
> Then at the time of Divorce she said she couldn't read so she had signed something without knowing what it was.....hahahahahaha. It didn't wash thankfully.
> Good luck in the Minefield Gents.


Um. Did you not hear any bells ringing (alarm ones, not the wedding kind) when you, and I quote '_made _her sign'?! 

And then your divorced. Quelle suprise ...


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## Serendipity2

tamsin said:


> Yes I'd forgotten to add the prenup part, which is, surprisingly, enforceable here. And of course you can have the house in your name. And so it would be stalemate if the wife wanted to cash out. She having the land, you the house, and would make things very difficult for her, unless she bumped you off. And of course a chunk of change could very well see her off the property (if she wanted a chunk of change to sign a prenup, I suggest you cancel the wedding ...) But all in all, weighing it all up, I've seen a zillion problems with having the title in the wife's name, a lot of hassle, 'will they won't they extend the 30 year lease', or worse, it all goes south if the landlord dies. BUT never seen anything bad happen with the company route. The FBA thing was a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and we all know _who_ the nut is. Talk about locking the stable door after the horse's bolted ...


Tamsin,

I would agree that if she brought up the idea of receiving a sum of money for signing the prenup it's probably best to run - fast!

What I'm suggesting is that the expat make the offer. If she refuses and makes no fuss then you've probably got a real keeper or a heck of an actress. If she agrees to receiving money for signing the prenup when you bring up the subject then I would think of it as an insurance policy. You're just paying a modest sum to protect your other assets. But again, that's for the expat to initiate - not his intended. If the latter then you've likely got a gold digger and the blossom will soon lose it's beauty.

Lets face it, not too many expats in their 20's, 30's or 40's are coming to Thailand to retire. Most are in their 50's and 60's. What they have is pretty much all they will have in terms of wealth and income SO they should be careful and protect that income. The majority of expats coming to Thailand to retire want that Thai beauty or they could have stayed in their homeland and married an over-weight American [or European] "beauty". Those with a bit more wisdom look for something less exotic and more dependable - as has been mentioned by others. Chose your bride carefully but. When you do, treat her like a princess - and expect to be treated like a king in return. 

Serendipity2


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## blueyonder27

Before we get into the whys and wherefores of land ownership and cars etc ask yourselves how did you meet your Thai lady and if she has come through the aprenticeship of Pattaya, Phucket,and Bangkok., procede with caution with a Thai lawyer at your side. A word of caution however, be alert the lawyer is not infact making himself the beneficiary.


There are many sources of information on Thai ladies., but if you meet one in one of the villages who has a job albeit cutting sugar cane, then you can be reasonably sure she has feelings for you and the amount of money she needs will be small.

I met my wife though a bad experience with a bar girl, and in fact it was her sister who introduced me to my wife who is a hairdresser in a village a few miles from Phitsanulok.

My point is, you fall in love, you marry and there after should you divorce everything 50%. I love my wife and the house land, car etc is in her name.Have faith in love


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## tamsin

Serendipity2 said:


> Tamsin,
> 
> I would agree that if she brought up the idea of receiving a sum of money for signing the prenup it's probably best to run - fast!
> 
> What I'm suggesting is that the expat make the offer. If she refuses and makes no fuss then you've probably got a real keeper or a heck of an actress. If she agrees to receiving money for signing the prenup when you bring up the subject then I would think of it as an insurance policy. You're just paying a modest sum to protect your other assets. But again, that's for the expat to initiate - not his intended. If the latter then you've likely got a gold digger and the blossom will soon lose it's beauty.
> 
> Lets face it, not too many expats in their 20's, 30's or 40's are coming to Thailand to retire. Most are in their 50's and 60's. What they have is pretty much all they will have in terms of wealth and income SO they should be careful and protect that income. The majority of expats coming to Thailand to retire want that Thai beauty or they could have stayed in their homeland and married an over-weight American [or European] "beauty". Those with a bit more wisdom look for something less exotic and more dependable - as has been mentioned by others. Chose your bride carefully but. When you do, treat her like a princess - and expect to be treated like a king in return.
> 
> Serendipity2


Uh. Where to start. First of all the prenup. Would you ask for a prenup if marrying in your home country? Most would say no, unless they are from the US. Although asking for a prenup here in Thailand is, I would say, pretty sensible. Although having said that, as has already been stated, assets prior to the marriage are yours anyway and not divisible, and the house/land thing's already been covered.

But, and I quote, "the majority of expats coming to Thailand to retire want that Thai beauty". What 'beauty' Thai or otherwise would want to take up with some aging lothario if it were not for the money? Seriously? Your all OLD here when you get past 30. What do you think they think of you when you hit 50, 60 and er, 70?

You'll save yourself a lot of trouble by either picking someone closer to your age (although that's not always a guarantee you won't be whacked), or just paying by the day. Or night. 

By the by. Does get a tad tiring when all caucasian women are described as being 'overweight' you know. And the word 'beauty' in quotes suggests all caucasian women are ugly too. What about you? Balding, potbellied and wrinkly. Surely it must have occurred to at least some of you that the reason most old men are here is because their caucasian wives got heartily sick of them and gave them the bum's rush.


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## Serendipity2

tamsin,

ALL Caucasian women aren't fat and unattractive - just most of them. I'm referring to American women of course. And unfortunately most come with 9 yards of attitude. A lot more men are NOT over-weight and are in reasonably fit condition. Yes, there are the exceptions but the average "Joe sixpack" isn't coming to Thailand except maybe on holiday.

I suspect [but don't know] that the average difference between expat men and Thai women is probably closer to 40 years than 20. Few men "retire" under 50 and most are in their mid to late 50's and early 60's. Using an average of 60 and the average Thai bride of say 22 is a difference of 38 years. Many are men older, some are younger but not by much. In the end, though, what you or I think, feel or believe is irrelevant. The men come to Thailand to enjoy a better life, free of American societal hangups with regard to sex and dating/marrying younger women. In Thailand a younger woman can find a very satisfactory relationship with an older man where both are happy. Why not? And it's not just expat men seeking to meet and marry Thai women. I've a British friend living in Bangkok married for over 30 years to a Thai man. They have an excellent business [travel] and they're happy and have two lovely daughters - both all grown up and married. So it's not just expat men but also expat women. Again, why not? 

That said, you seem to have a somewhat low regard for expat men wanting to enjoy their lives in Thailand and finding that special someone. Life is a two way street where each gets something that they want - where's the harm? 

Serendipity2


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## oddball

Serendipity2 said:


> tamsin,
> 
> ALL Caucasian women aren't fat and unattractive - just most of them. I'm referring to American women of course. And unfortunately most come with 9 yards of attitude. A lot more men are NOT over-weight and are in reasonably fit condition. Yes, there are the exceptions but the average "Joe sixpack" isn't coming to Thailand except maybe on holiday.
> 
> I suspect [but don't know] that the average difference between expat men and Thai women is probably closer to 40 years than 20. Few men "retire" under 50 and most are in their mid to late 50's and early 60's. Using an average of 60 and the average Thai bride of say 22 is a difference of 38 years. Many are men older, some are younger but not by much. In the end, though, what you or I think, feel or believe is irrelevant. The men come to Thailand to enjoy a better life, free of American societal hangups with regard to sex and dating/marrying younger women. In Thailand a younger woman can find a very satisfactory relationship with an older man where both are happy. Why not? And it's not just expat men seeking to meet and marry Thai women. I've a British friend living in Bangkok married for over 30 years to a Thai man. They have an excellent business [travel] and they're happy and have two lovely daughters - both all grown up and married. So it's not just expat men but also expat women. Again, why not?
> 
> That said, you seem to have a somewhat low regard for expat men wanting to enjoy their lives in Thailand and finding that special someone. Life is a two way street where each gets something that they want - where's the harm?
> 
> Serendipity2


 Sounds fine in theory , fact usually turns into a one way street at best , but far too often , a cul-de-sac , or a lesson in 'Terminology " , read , read and read more in the history of Thai Visa , "MY eyes are wide open ".


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## King Silk

Yes Tammy, I am a bit doubtful when it comes to marriage having had a few previously!
What's the point of getting married here anyway?

No more. That's* it* now.........


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## KhwaamLap

*Property and wives*

Not sure I agree the 'average age of 40 years' mentioned above- please remember not every farang here is a retiree. I know many mixed couples, and only 1 has such a large age gap (he is about 80 and she in her 40s - married for over a decade). The rest have more standard age gaps - I am 7 years older then my wife of 11 years (two kids) and most of my mixed friends are either simular or even closer in age.

Many farangs working here meet with girls in their place of work and are similar in age- as they would be in the West. Now, those that find there wives in catalogues or whilst on a whoring holiday, then I guess there is likely to be a bigger age gap.

As to home ownership, most people I know rent - its safer and easier to move and regrade. Rents are often cheaper than a mortgage here and houses are not the investment they used to be in the west (other than certain places - even then as an investment the west - until recently - was still a better one). 

USUSFRUCTs is the 'legit' way to go - no rent setup,no dodgy company (with half a dozen sleeping Thai directors/shareholders) that breaks the rules and,although unlikely to be in danger of a crack down, may be at risk from a local property investor with good contacts that likes the plot! 

I rent, but I have heard of people setting up USUFRUCTs on land in their wife's name and listing kidsor even relativeson the USUFRUCT this stops the danger of the USUSFRUCT being taken as part of the matrimonial estate during a divorce (as not just co-owned by husband/wife). These are also very cheap - though it is expected that the USUFRUCT is 'bought' rather than 'gifted' - talk to a lawyer that has experience in them (you pay tax on the purchasing of USUFRUCT). As they are tied to the deeds (registry office) the property can not be sold without the USUFRUCT going along with it- it also covers all produce on the land etc.

USUFRUCTs was adopted here as a mechanism to protect farmers (in particular the produce their farms produced) from greedy bank managers who 'owned' the land (under mortgage etc). So, they will never be removed - FAR TOO MANY VOTES!!!


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## King Silk

The good advice in this thread is worth a small fortune to any newbie thinking of coming here.
I just hope they take note before jumping in with both feet, as so many have.......


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## Serendipity2

KhwaamLap said:


> Not sure I agree the 'average age of 40 years' mentioned above- please remember not every farang here is a retiree. I know many mixed couples, and only 1 has such a large age gap (he is about 80 and she in her 40s - married for over a decade). The rest have more standard age gaps - I am 7 years older then my wife of 11 years (two kids) and most of my mixed friends are either simular or even closer in age.
> 
> Many farangs working here meet with girls in their place of work and are similar in age- as they would be in the West. Now, those that find there wives in catalogues or whilst on a whoring holiday, then I guess there is likely to be a bigger age gap.
> 
> As to home ownership, most people I know rent - its safer and easier to move and regrade. Rents are often cheaper than a mortgage here and houses are not the investment they used to be in the west (other than certain places - even then as an investment the west - until recently - was still a better one).
> 
> USUSFRUCTs is the 'legit' way to go - no rent setup,no dodgy company (with half a dozen sleeping Thai directors/shareholders) that breaks the rules and,although unlikely to be in danger of a crack down, may be at risk from a local property investor with good contacts that likes the plot!
> 
> I rent, but I have heard of people setting up USUFRUCTs on land in their wife's name and listing kidsor even relativeson the USUFRUCT this stops the danger of the USUSFRUCT being taken as part of the matrimonial estate during a divorce (as not just co-owned by husband/wife). These are also very cheap - though it is expected that the USUFRUCT is 'bought' rather than 'gifted' - talk to a lawyer that has experience in them (you pay tax on the purchasing of USUFRUCT). As they are tied to the deeds (registry office) the property can not be sold without the USUFRUCT going along with it- it also covers all produce on the land etc.
> 
> USUFRUCTs was adopted here as a mechanism to protect farmers (in particular the produce their farms produced) from greedy bank managers who 'owned' the land (under mortgage etc). So, they will never be removed - FAR TOO MANY VOTES!!!



Hi KhwaamLap,

Great post! I hadn't thought of expats of working age deciding to stay in Thailand and marry/raise a family. Most of the expats I've met are on holiday from the oil fields of the middle east and the only expats married to Thai women have been retirees who've "Gone Bamboo" and decided to live their lives in a foreign land. Among that list of countries the Philippines and Thailand are at the top of the list but I'm sure there are expat communities in every Asian country. Great food, lovely ladies and a good life, all in all.

Thanks for the info on USUFRUCTS. Sounds like a disease! I think most expats would like to own the land beneath their home and build a legacy for their family. But that has to be tempered by the reality that most foreign governments do not really like/want expats. We're tolerated but their is very little willingness to make our lives better. A perfect example is the monthly visa runs most end up having to make. It's costly, takes a bit of time and is stupid [my opinion] but shows how little regard a country has for the expat community. That said, when on a collision course with a super tanker the prudent thing to do is step out of the way since you're not going to change it's course. Like you, I'll rent until I have the same rights in my adopted country as those born there do - and I'm not likely to see that happen. :|

Serendipity2


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## Guest

Interesting, I'll look into usufruct as applied to Thailand. I've a share in a property in France where the former owners left the property to their daughter (who unfortunately died before they did) during their lifetimes, gradually, in a series of gifts. In France it's an inheritance tax avoidance move more than anything else. It gives the original owners the right to live there until they die, whenever that might be.


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## Serendipity2

frogblogger said:


> Interesting, I'll look into usufruct as applied to Thailand. I've a share in a property in France where the former owners left the property to their daughter (who unfortunately died before they did) during their lifetimes, gradually, in a series of gifts. In France it's an inheritance tax avoidance move more than anything else. It gives the original owners the right to live there until they die, whenever that might be.



frogblogger,

If the same holds true in Thailand just be sure your impending demise isn't 'hastened' a bit so that the bouteous, blushing bride can move on with her life!


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## King Silk

Yes S2. I have heard, that in the Villages, they sometimes slowly poison Farangs who have willed their property, with a herbal poison, that cannot easily be detected by Autopsy. 

Don't know if it's true........wouldn't be surprised if it was would you?

Here in Pattaya they just push you off a high Condo balcony when are drunk! Nice eh???


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## Serendipity2

King Silk said:


> Yes S2. I have heard, that in the Villages, they sometimes slowly poison Farangs who have willed their property, with a herbal poison, that cannot easily be detected by Autopsy.
> 
> Don't know if it's true........wouldn't be surprised if it was would you?
> 
> Here in Pattaya they just push you off a high Condo balcony when are drunk! Nice eh???



King Silk,

That might be a great new business for a few of us expats to start up - "Husband be Gone". Charge a modest fee to the soon-to-be-grieving widow. The price would have to depend on how quickly she wanted her husband to go! We could probably do a land-office business. I'm sure there are LOTS of Thai ladies who would like to get into "grieving mode" ASAP and willing to part with a fair amount of brass to do so! 

In all the dozens of trips to Thailand I've yet to visit Pattaya. I think probably every other expat who ever visited Thailand has. That said, remind me to stay away from tall buildings and anxious widows-to-be. Especially if I'm married. 

Serendipity2


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## King Silk

Too late S2. I hear THAT 'business' already exists........not doing well though like most others.
Apparently they pushed twenty employees off balconies last month due to lack of 'customers'.


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## Serendipity2

King Silk said:


> Too late S2. I hear THAT 'business' already exists........not doing well though like most others.
> Apparently they pushed twenty employees off balconies last month due to lack of 'customers'.



King Silk,

There's an old 'saw' that one attorney in town will starve to death but that two will make a fortune! 

Perhaps a second 'team' working in the "Husband Be Gone" field could bring about a bit of synergy that would benefit both! Might also start up a "Wife Be Gone" franchise as well - some poor Thai has got to have tripped down the aisle with an American honey [with 9 yards of attitude] that needs to be set free. 

Serendipity2


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## mikecwm

A good source of information is a book called "How to Buy Land and Build a House in Thailand" by Philip Bryce. - available through the internet. Googling will find it.


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