# Tourists



## MaidenScotland

I think we are all agreed that Egypt has to try and bring back tourist spending power and I for one agree that everything that can be done should be done but of course Egyptians have to pull out the stops and realise they are competing with the rest of the world and offer tourists good value for money and what I saw last night will not do it.

I don't know if you have ever been to the family centre in Maadi.. it is opposite the Japanese embassy. The place is very run down most of the shops are closed and what are open are cheap tacky shops. I have never eaten in the few restaurants that are open simply because they do not look clean. Last night I was waiting outside the picture house when 3 coaches of Japanese tourists were brought along to this place and they duly all went into the centre..immediately more than half came back and went and sat on the coach.. I wasn't around to see when the others returned.
Now as a tourist we all like to have an experience that we wont forget but to be taken along to a run down mall is not what we are thinking about.
There are many great restaurants in Cairo that these tourists could have been taken to.. but they were taken along to somewhere that the tour guides must have been getting a great percentage from.


----------



## crewmeal

Nothing unusual with that MS. many tour reps around the world would recommend places that you and I wouldn't even dream of looking at. The bottom line is always commission in these situations. I guess in this instance whoever organised that coach trip would think Japanese tourists are 'easy meat'


----------



## PoleDancer

MaidenScotland said:


> There are many great restaurants in Cairo


Really?

Recommendations eagerly awaited.


----------



## MaidenScotland

crewmeal said:


> Nothing unusual with that MS. many tour reps around the world would recommend places that you and I wouldn't even dream of looking at. The bottom line is always commission in these situations. I guess in this instance whoever organised that coach trip would think Japanese tourists are 'easy meat'




I am well aware there is nothing unusual in it... but that is my point! when you are trying to get tourists back and word of mouth is the best advert why take people to these dumps., people here do not think of tomorrows dollar it is only what they can get off you today.


----------



## MaidenScotland

PoleDancer said:


> Really?
> 
> Recommendations eagerly awaited.




Chop chop. cellar door, abou el sid. swiss chalet... charwoods and their sister restaurants.. italian in Zamalek and French in Mohadiseen.. La Bodega

There is no need to take tourists to dumps.


----------



## Whitedesert

dont take them to the Giza pyramids...friends of ours visited last week and went...because there are so few tourists the guys over there started physically hitting each other for the custom of our friends. They had their little 3 year old daughter with them. They got out of there as fast as they could...these guys just dont learn anything...they are going to lose all the customers eventually with this behaviour as the news spreads.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Whitedesert said:


> dont take them to the Giza pyramids...friends of ours visited last week and went...because there are so few tourists the guys over there started physically hitting each other for the custom of our friends. They had their little 3 year old daughter with them. They got out of there as fast as they could...these guys just dont learn anything...they are going to lose all the customers eventually with this behaviour as the news spreads.




Exactly.. 

I blame the fact that most western tourist come to Cairo once.. the see the pyramids, museum and then go down to the red sea.. and the people who work in the tourist industry know that they will be no repeat business so grab everything you can
I worked in the hotel industry for years so I am not a novice in knowing what tourists are expecting.. top of the list after a clean bed is service.


----------



## SHendra

It's a shame it's like this really even if they know the people tend to just go to the historic sites once they seam to forget the best advertisment is word of mouth.. even in this age of internet etc. 

And you know as for those Japanese tourists wether the resturant was good or not the last place I myself would want to eat if I am on holiday is opposite my own Embassy! In Cairo alone so many unique nice places to eat. I use to enjoy going to some resturants by the nile or even on the nile, it was part of the experience of visiting Cairo! 

Use to wonder of simular things in Alex's. You can dive down to see the site of the old Lighthouse but I never once attempted it due to the filth in the sea there.. mind boggled into who could actually see! (Maybe they go down just to have a feel!)

Ironic of this thread today Maiden.. I not long got in from town and on the side of one of the bus was a big advert for Egypt think it was offering a inclusive holiday to Sharm. So there we go advertisment on the London buses!


----------



## expatagogo

Egypt's economy has been more than a full year without the swinging tourist business it used to have and must be feeling like it's been managing without it well enough so who cares if they come.


----------



## PoleDancer

expatagogo said:


> Egypt's economy has been more than a full year without the swinging tourist business it used to have and must be feeling like it's been managing without it well enough


I hope you're being sarcastic.


----------



## expatagogo

PoleDancer said:


> I hope you're being sarcastic.


No, I'm not. Why else wouldn't they put some effort into trying to revive tourism?

Tourism isn't just a couple of weeks to see some camels and pyramids, and maybe some deep sea diving in the resorts. It also includes all of those Gulfies that used come over winter break and summer vacations, rent flats, stay in hotels, feed and shop for their families, and generally spent 1/4 of the year here. Those folks have found elsewhere to go.

It's one thing to drive off the nekkid people, but when they've put off their neighbors, with not a glimmer of an intention to lure them back, Egypt must not want guests.


----------



## marimar

This short sighted view of how to treat tourists unfortunately is nothing new although understandably worse since the revolution (since there is more workers fighting for less tourists). When back in Sharm 5 or six years ago we knew a lot of people in the diving industry and even then there was a distinct view of "get all you can from the tourist while he's here" and no thought about repeat visitors. Quality of service is usually non existent and the companies and workers are just thinking about the money they can grab now and not giving good service to encourage people to visit again. The amount of people I've spoken to who said that they will not come back to Egypt and particularly Sharm because of the service or harassment is astounding. For those who do come back, they are preferring to stay on hotel complexes with all inclusive deals where they don't have to venture out to buy anything, more lost revenue for the local workers. I don't know how tourism will be in Egypt in the near future but it's not looking too good at the moment.


----------



## DeadGuy

And it keeps going........

Citing harassment complaints, travel agencies threaten to suspend Luxor flights | Egypt Independent

Hope they _will_ learn from this.......Cause if they didn't, then what else will teach them the lesson?!


----------



## MaidenScotland

I was in the Khan this afternoon and it was busy with Egyptians and tourists the strange thing is the hassle was back. I was at the Khan a few weeks ago and the place was empty and no hassle


----------



## Sonrisa

marimar said:


> This short sighted view of how to treat tourists unfortunately is nothing new although understandably worse since the revolution (since there is more workers fighting for less tourists). When back in Sharm 5 or six years ago we knew a lot of people in the diving industry and even then there was a distinct view of "get all you can from the tourist while he's here" and no thought about repeat visitors. Quality of service is usually non existent and the companies and workers are just thinking about the money they can grab now and not giving good service to encourage people to visit again. The amount of people I've spoken to who said that they will not come back to Egypt and particularly Sharm because of the service or harassment is astounding. For those who do come back, they are preferring to stay on hotel complexes with all inclusive deals where they don't have to venture out to buy anything, more lost revenue for the local workers. I don't know how tourism will be in Egypt in the near future but it's not looking too good at the moment.


TO be honest I am goint to Sharm and I intend not to leave the resort at all. Previous years I wondered into town and the market only to be annoyed by the amound of harrassing that goes on by shopkeepers and moneygrabbers.
Puts everyone off, including those amongs us that are quite used to travel in egypt.


----------



## aykalam

Sonrisa said:


> TO be honest I am goint to Sharm and I intend not to leave the resort at all. Previous years I wondered into town and the market only to be annoyed by the amound of harrassing that goes on by shopkeepers and moneygrabbers.
> Puts everyone off, including those amongs us that are quite used to travel in egypt.


Tourism sector in Egypt is digging its own grave.


----------



## canuck2010

Since most of the hotels are owned by a couple billionaires and corrupt regime officials, it will be interesting to see how this affects who gets into power.


----------



## AntoniaGoldilocks

Sharm has a new police chief who apparently met with business owners of Naama Bay to do something about the hassling. I don't see much of a difference now to be honest. I don't think people realise how annoying hassling is for tourists. 

I am used to it now, I just blank them completely.


----------



## expatagogo

I have guests coming from the US this coming weekend. Of course I will take them to do the tourist things, however I already dread it.


----------



## Guest

I recently cycled from Cairo to Aswan. Being on a bike, I spent a fair bit of time interacting with locals, both in the city and in villages. I didn't spend a lot of time in Cairo, but our official start was at the Giza pyramids. Overall, we (there were 44 of us) were hassled far less than I expected. In Luxor, however, when we were on foot, we were hassled relentlessly by the horse & buggy drivers who would follow us for blocks trying to get us to spend 10 pounds for a ride. In the market it was the same thing - the vendors would follow us constantly shouting at us to buy something. When we refused, we were shouted at. Same with the market.

We camped most of the time, but in Luxor some of us opted to stay in a "hotel" room on the same land as the campsite. The manager made no secret of the fact that he was trying to rip us off for everything, e.g. the price of the room, the meals, lack of service, etc. The rooms were filthy with mould on the shower curtains, the sheets were dirty, etc. He told us that there had been no tourists at his hotel for 11 months! It could have been a nice enough place if it were cleaned, but he didn't see the point in spending the money. Then he had the nerve to ask if we would write a good review in Trip Advisor! 

In Aswan, the horse & buggy drivers were still aggressive, but the vendors in the market were much less so than in Luxor. When told no, they would usually leave us alone (after a little bit), and when bargaining for goods we were able to reach fair prices (or what seemed like fair) in reasonably short order.

Worst of all, though, is that when cycling through villages, or on roads just outside villages, we were constantly pelted by rocks and/or whipped by sugar cane. Once a tuk tuk driver tried to force some of us off the road. Luckily we had a police escort who showed up after about 15 minutes and they held the driver back so we could continue.

this is not a judgment or a criticism of Egypt - it's just my observations. There are many good things about Egypt, and I"m certainly glad of the opportunity to visit, however, these are the types of incidents that will turn tourists off. The reality is that many people use Trip Advisor and the like to get opinions on places to travel to. I have not submitted anything, but other people will, and when the world reads about incidents like this, it isn't going to help the tourist industry. It's a shame because Egypt is a great place to cycle, and having more cyclists will mean more money spent

I don't know what the solution is, but the internet is a very powerful media so using it to their advantage, IMO, will to a certain extent make or break the tourist industry in Egypt

I feel sad for people in that industry in Egypt. We were told by an Egyptian cyclist who rode with us that more than 20 million people in Egypt are employed either directly or indirectly by tourism, and that prior to the revolution Egypt was the #1 tourist destination in the world. I really hope that things turn around for the Egyptian people


----------



## MaidenScotland

nola said:


> I recently cycled from Cairo to Aswan. Being on a bike, I spent a fair bit of time interacting with locals, both in the city and in villages. I didn't spend a lot of time in Cairo, but our official start was at the Giza pyramids. Overall, we (there were 44 of us) were hassled far less than I expected. In Luxor, however, when we were on foot, we were hassled relentlessly by the horse & buggy drivers who would follow us for blocks trying to get us to spend 10 pounds for a ride. In the market it was the same thing - the vendors would follow us constantly shouting at us to buy something. When we refused, we were shouted at. Same with the market.
> 
> We camped most of the time, but in Luxor some of us opted to stay in a "hotel" room on the same land as the campsite. The manager made no secret of the fact that he was trying to rip us off for everything, e.g. the price of the room, the meals, lack of service, etc. The rooms were filthy with mould on the shower curtains, the sheets were dirty, etc. He told us that there had been no tourists at his hotel for 11 months! It could have been a nice enough place if it were cleaned, but he didn't see the point in spending the money. Then he had the nerve to ask if we would write a good review in Trip Advisor!
> 
> In Aswan, the horse & buggy drivers were still aggressive, but the vendors in the market were much less so than in Luxor. When told no, they would usually leave us alone (after a little bit), and when bargaining for goods we were able to reach fair prices (or what seemed like fair) in reasonably short order.
> 
> Worst of all, though, is that when cycling through villages, or on roads just outside villages, we were constantly pelted by rocks and/or whipped by sugar cane. Once a tuk tuk driver tried to force some of us off the road. Luckily we had a police escort who showed up after about 15 minutes and they held the driver back so we could continue.
> 
> this is not a judgment or a criticism of Egypt - it's just my observations. There are many good things about Egypt, and I"m certainly glad of the opportunity to visit, however, these are the types of incidents that will turn tourists off. The reality is that many people use Trip Advisor and the like to get opinions on places to travel to. I have not submitted anything, but other people will, and when the world reads about incidents like this, it isn't going to help the tourist industry. It's a shame because Egypt is a great place to cycle, and having more cyclists will mean more money spent
> 
> I don't know what the solution is, but the internet is a very powerful media so using it to their advantage, IMO, will to a certain extent make or break the tourist industry in Egypt
> 
> I feel sad for people in that industry in Egypt. We were told by an Egyptian cyclist who rode with us that more than 20 million people in Egypt are employed either directly or indirectly by tourism, and that prior to the revolution Egypt was the #1 tourist destination in the world. I really hope that things turn around for the Egyptian people



thanks for sharing your experience, sadly this is how Egypt is and always has been. Service is horrendous one of the most famous/popular places to sit and have coffee is the Marriott terrace.. famous for it's lack of service.


----------



## PoleDancer

nola said:


> Worst of all, though, is that when cycling through villages, or on roads just outside villages, we were constantly pelted by rocks and/or whipped by sugar cane.


I'm curious. Any idea what the root of this hostility was?

Oh and were adult villagers involved, or was this naughty children only?


----------



## canuck2010

I think under Mubarak, the officials and mass tourist developments were able to effectively mask the mass poverty most people endure, with ever higher walls and effective police. It's only now that people are allowed to express their frustrations over the economy, but at the expense of scaring away tourists. 

Egypt needs to adopt new forms of sustainable tourism, the mass tourist developments never really benefited many people anyway. Community developments, Eco-developments, more sustainable models ect... are needed. Other African countries that have embraced mass tourism have experienced similar problems as Egypt, though on a smaller scale. 

One example that really sticks out for me is how the great Pyramids were completely ruined by a succession of tacky developments that immediately surround it. It just shows how a quick profit was made at the expense of a total lack of long term development.


----------



## canuck2010

PoleDancer said:


> I'm curious. Any idea what the root of this hostility was?
> 
> Oh and were adult villagers involved, or was this naughty children only?


Over the past few months there have been many protests in the region for lack of cooking gas cylinders (among other issues), could have been related.


----------



## Guest

PoleDancer said:


> I'm curious. Any idea what the root of this hostility was?
> 
> Oh and were adult villagers involved, or was this naughty children only?


I've no idea, but this bike tour travels the same route every January and apparently they have never had this issue before. That being the case, I can only assume it has something to do with the revolution, but why it manifests itself into this hostility isn't clear to me.

No, there were no adult villagers, it was mostly teenage and young boys. The adults weren't aggressive at all, in fact most shouted out Happy New Year as we passed through

We managed to learn a few Arabic words, i.e., Sabal el Kheir (sp?), Salam Aleikum, and we started to pre-empt the rock throwing by shouting out to the kids when we saw them picking up rocks. We would then stop and engage them and they would put the rocks down. Maybe it was a way to get attention, I don't know, but it's a weird way to greet tourists


----------



## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> I think under Mubarak, the officials and mass tourist developments were able to effectively mask the mass poverty most people endure, with ever higher walls and effective police. It's only now that people are allowed to express their frustrations over the economy, but at the expense of scaring away tourists.
> 
> Egypt needs to adopt new forms of sustainable tourism, the mass tourist developments never really benefited many people anyway. Community developments, Eco-developments, more sustainable models ect... are needed. Other African countries that have embraced mass tourism have experienced similar problems as Egypt, though on a smaller scale.
> 
> One example that really sticks out for me is how the great Pyramids were completely ruined by a succession of tacky developments that immediately surround it. It just shows how a quick profit was made at the expense of a total lack of long term development.



At least the pyramids are still there.. in the late 1800s they were thinking of pulling them down and using the stone for housing..


----------



## txlstewart

MaidenScotland said:


> At least the pyramids are still there.. in the late 1800s they were thinking of pulling them down and using the stone for housing..


There are also pyramids smack dab in the middle of some military shooting/firing ranges....how lovely!


----------



## MaidenScotland

To be fair I think all countries have at times made a right mess of their planning.
I belong to a facebook page which is my old town in photos.. the beautiful buildings that were torn down in the 60s to be replaced with concrete monstrosities is criminal.


----------



## DeadGuy

PoleDancer said:


> I'm curious. Any idea what the root of this hostility was?
> 
> Oh and were adult villagers involved, or was this naughty children only?


I am an Egyptian, and I've both witnessed and experienced the same [email protected] many times when I'm in a bus/private vehicle/train..........A passenger sitting next to me in a bus needed stitches in his head from a huge rock that was thrown on the bus that we were in few years ago actually 

I'll never understand the real reasons behind such weird behavior, but I believe that the general lack of common sense and human behavior, and the need to destroy what's not theirs are the main reasons for such hostility........


----------



## Guest

As soon as our group crossed into Sudan, the rock throwing, hassling, angry shouting, etc. stopped. People were friendly and welcoming, and incredibly hospitable, and very anxious that we had a good impression of the country. I was stopped a couple of times while riding my bike by people who expressed their thanks for taking the time to experience Sudan. They wanted people to know how different Sudan is from peoples' perceptions of it.

That changed again when we entered Ethiopia. In general, people were friendly and welcoming, but we were again met with rock throwing kids, who also tried to whip us with whips, shove sugar cane sticks between our spokes, etc. Many, many people chased after us screaming "money, money, money!" This happened in Egypt as well.

One of our group (an Ethiopian) was of the opinion that this behaviour is/was because people don't have pride in their country or in themselves, and they have lost their dignity. HIs view was that, during times of famine/drought, the people were "rescued" by well meaning people of other countries, i.e., given handouts of food, clothing, etc., so instead of people being empowered by help themselves, they relied on handouts. Now there is another generation of people who are expecting to be bailed out.

Again, no judgements here, but I wonder if that's part of the reason behind the rock throwing/begging for money/hassling, etc. in Egypt? Lack of pride in their country and themselves?


----------



## canuck2010

It's just a consequence of extreme poverty. When you live on $2 or $1 a day or less, every day is a fight for survival. When someone is that poor, hunger comes before pride.


----------



## Guest

canuck2010 said:


> It's just a consequence of extreme poverty. When you live on $2 or $1 a day or less, every day is a fight for survival. When someone is that poor, hunger comes before pride.


But there are many countries where people live in extreme poverty and they don't throw rocks at people


----------



## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> It's just a consequence of extreme poverty. When you live on $2 or $1 a day or less, every day is a fight for survival. When someone is that poor, hunger comes before pride.




I understand having no pride when you are dire poverty and hassling people for money but what has that got to do with throwing stones?


If you look around the rubbish that is thrown down in the streets of Cairo.. fast food wrappers being the biggest offender it shows a lack of pride in the city.. poor people don't buy fast food.


----------



## DeadGuy

And another one I just read...........Just a few minutes ago.......



> Sun, 04/03/2012 - 16:01,
> 
> About 200 of the staff of EMAK Port Ghalib, which is owned by the Kuwaiti Khurafy company, have closed the main gates of Marsa Alam's international airport and refused to allow the tours' buses in or out of the airport, the staff are protesting and demanding for better working conditions and wages........
> 
> About 12 flights have landed today in Marsa Alam's airport, arriving from Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Czech according to sources inside the airport.
> .............


From the Arabic Al Masry al Youm, ?????? ????? «???????» ?????? ???? «???? ???» ???????? ???????? ?????? | ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???

What a first day those who just arrived today are gonna have! 

The rest of the article is talking about the protesters' working conditions..........I'm sure most of you, if not all, do know how [email protected] it can get for people like those........Egyptians, working for a Kuwaiti, in the middle of no where.......


----------



## DeadGuy

The Nile Crocodile cruise ship, almost sank earlier this morning while anchoraged in front of the Etap Hotel in Luxor......The cruise's second level was under water!

12 crew members were on board, all rescued..........
??? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? 12 ?????? | ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???

Thank God no tourists were having their holiday on it


----------

