# Please help- I want to relinquish US citizenship



## GirlDownunder

...but I sincerely cannot fathom how to go about it? I'll nutshell my situation:

Arrived in Australia in 2007. Became AU citizen in 2012. Have filed income tax each year. No longer have any ties to the USA (since 2008). I am a single mother of two (15 & 20) & am low income. I file tax in AU & US but didn't make enough the past two years to pay anything.

I've decided to relinquish my USA citizenship- but there's so much conflicting data/info that my head is spinning!

Right now, I have about $50,000 in savings for my kids education. Due to my economic state, I receive family tax benefits from AU. I made 16k last year. My net worth would be the savings, my house contents, & a used car- maybe $70k total?

I checked the US Embassy site to see what they have there, and it says I must pay *$3000.00* to renounce!!!  Then, I read elsewhere that you don't have to go through them & to "relinquish" directly to the Dept. of State? How? What do I do to inform, who, where?

Then, I found this 8854 form- which is totally confusing. According to what's written, I don't believe I'm a "covered" expatriate-- but the instruction form is so horribly confusing. Under "who has to file 8854", it says: "You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of your expatriation". So, I have to file the form in order to certify that I don't need to file it??? :confused2:

Lastly, and this is probably the easiest question: if I posted a letter of relinquishing citizenship this week, am I still up for having to do 2015 taxes for Apr. 15, 2016? When does any of it "take effect"?

Help?????


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## Bevdeforges

If you talk to the Consulate, I think they are going to tell you that you can renounce for $2350 (may be more expensive in your part of the world) or you stay a US citizen. From time to time, folks have suggested that you can simply "relinquish" based on committing an act that is prohibited by law "with intent." I.e. one of the acts still in the law that are supposed to end your US citizenship: taking another nationality voluntarily, serving in a foreign army and few few other things. The problem in your case is that you have already filed your US taxes since taking Australian nationality and that can be used to show a lack of "intent."

Maybe someone here more familiar with the law can provide more information about "relinquishing" US citizenship. But a big question is what about your kids? I don't think you can relinquish for them, which could prove to be a problem.

The other option is to simply lay low and try to stay off the IRS radar. But you want to think through the consequences of renouncing or relinquishing quite thoroughly before you do anything. If you're not paying any US taxes, and not likely to have to do so anytime in the near future, you may want to use that $2350 to some other good purpose.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

Why renounce? Lots of paperwork and hassle and cost. You'll likely never owe the US a dime, so if the only reason want to get rid of the citizenship is because you're tired of filing tax forms, just stop filing tax forms. Very unlikely there'd be consequences.


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## GirlDownunder

$2350USD is close to $3000AUD, atm...RE: filing taxes- I had my relationship end due to an abusive partner & then had to fight to stay in AU under family violence act. I filed to stay square w/the US not knowing if we'd end up having to leave. Other family issues kept me straddling whether there would be need to return to the US. Now, there is nothing left there for me. My kids can decide their own fate when they're old enough.

Each year I must pay to file a US tax return that basically costs me more each time. I have my own business, which means due to our tax year being july-june, I have to keep separate income records (income for our year then income for the US tax year) & must file the other form (foreign bank acct.) & to do this takes a decent amount of time, scanning, emailing, postal fees...not to mention I'm not the only one who resents the US attempting to turn Int'l banks into their police, reporting on me.

This isn't something I take lightly or "need to think about". I know what I want to do- I just can't believe how even the "how-to exit" has been so thoroughly jumbled. The forms look exactly like the same mind-numbingly complicated & confusing IRS forms. If relinquishing is offered as a possibility, surely someone must know how to proceed???

I hope that someone is on this site.

Thanks


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## GirlDownunder

Nononymous said:


> Why renounce? Lots of paperwork and hassle and cost. You'll likely never owe the US a dime, so if the only reason want to get rid of the citizenship is because you're tired of filing tax forms, just stop filing tax forms. Very unlikely there'd be consequences.


The time, paperwork & costs are quite a lot just for me to keep doing what I have been! The renouncing of citizenship only recently got pushed up from $450 to now $2350USD-- that, is the US gov't response to people electing to leave in the every growing numbers that they are. They're turning it into a money-making event. At this point, I'd like to just end it- before they decide to make it any harder in future.

And I'd never not file. That's the law- & until I am legally removed from having to file, I'll continue to.

Thanks


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## Nononymous

Many people are happily, cheerfully non-compliant - myself among them - because they don't want to bother with the hassle and they know that there is near-zero risk of penalty. Honestly, given your financial constraints, the best course of action would be to stop sending US returns. Since you'll never owe them any money, you'd save the US government the otherwise wasted processing cost! Go ahead, break the law, enjoy a private act of defiance, it feels great.


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## Pacifica

To officially terminate US citizenship and receive a Certificate of Loss of Nationality requires that one either:

(a) Renounce at the embassy/consulate; or
(b) Perform one of the other potentially relinquishing acts voluntarily, with the intention of relinquishing (Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(a)), and then notify Dept of State by filling out the required forms and signing them at an embassy/consulate. The intent to relinquish must be present at the time the potentially relinquishing act is performed.

Renunciation is one of the 7 forms of relinquishment (_INA_ 349(a)). It is the only one where the relinquishing act and the notification of the act take place simultaneously. It’s also the only one which has a fee -- currently $2350.

Department of State manuals:
Renunciation 
Other forms of relinquishment 

If you are claiming a relinquishment, such as by naturalising in a foreign country, you are required to fill out DS-4079. That questionnaire is used by DoS to evaluate if a relinquishment actually occurred. 

This evaluation is made on a balance of probabilities. Different factors carry different weight. The 4079 has questions about one’s ties and connections to the US and to their home country. If a person is claiming relinquishment, some ties to the US, such as having family/friends there, are no big deal and don’t really have any weight. Some factors are very strong indicators of citizenship, so if you answer yes to one of those questions, you’d need to have a good logical explanation (it’s pretty rare, but does happen in some cases).

Re taxes, a person is considered a US taxpayer until:

(a) the day they renounce; or
(b) the day they notify DoS of their relinquishment. 
26 US Code 877A(g)(4)

In the case of (b), at one time both DoS and IRS considered the date of the relinquishing act to be the date of citizenship termination. However, under the current law, IRS considers the date of notification to be the date of citizenship termination. So, if the relinquishing act was in 2008, the date the person notifies the consulate (signs the forms at the consulate) is the date IRS would consider them to terminate their “tax citizenship,” (although for all other purposes, the US govt would consider the citizenship to be terminated at the time of performing the relinquishing act). IRS would still require tax filing up for up to the date of signing the forms at the consulate and unfortunately require the 8854.

Basically read a lot, think things over carefully and consider all options before making a decision on what you want to do (or not do) about this. Everyone’s fact set and personality is a bit different.


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## maz57

US citizenship law is very complicated but arguably you lost your US citizenship when you became an Australian in 2012. It all hinges on whether it was your intent to do so at the time and only you can know your own mind. 

The US Department of State can only go on the preponderance of evidence in your particular case. If you follow Pacifica's link above you will find that INA s. 349(a) lists 7 different ways that a person can lose their US citizenship. Numbers 6 and 7 are irrelevant for normal folks (wartime and treason). Number 5 involves actually appearing before a Consular Officer and swearing the oath of renunciation (and is the only one that carries that outrageous US$2350 fee). 

Naturalizing as an Australian and swearing an oath of allegiance to Australia fall under numbers 1 and 2. You therefore performed 2 potentially relinquishing acts. US State dept will look at your behavior since you became an Australian citizen to determine whether you lost US citizenship. Filing US tax returns would work against your assertion but is not necessarily fatal to your case given that many are confused by US tax rules. Voting in US elections, traveling on a US passport, renewing a US passport, or taking advantage of other things that are only available to US citizens would bear more heavily on the determination. There is no harm (except perhaps to your nerves) in going to the nearest US consulate, informing them of your relinquishing acts, declaring that it was your intent to lose US citizenship, and requesting they issue you a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) to that effect. The worst that can happen is that they rule against you and insist on your swearing the oath of renunciation (and paying US$2350). If the ultimate goal is obtaining that CLN there is no way to avoid a trip to the Consulate; there is no way you can do it by "mail order". Note, however, there are many who "self-relinquish" by performing one of those relinquishing acts who go forward living their lives solely as citizens of their new countries. There is no official US government law that says one must get a CLN.

As far as taxes go, Nononymous has made the point about simply stopping filing US tax returns. Your stated 16k annual income (with two dependents) would possibly put you under the filing threshold and you may not have a filing obligation anyway. Even if you do there is no penalty for failing to file a return if there is no tax owing. Ceasing to file US returns going forward would indicate you believe you have lost US citizenship.

Lastly, Form 8854 doesn't come into play until if and when you file a final US tax return. This cannot happen until you have officially lost US citizenship and it now would be June 2016 at the earliest. If you decide to file for 2014 you qualify for the automatic "overseas" filing extension to June 15, 2015. It sounds as if you must file an FBAR (FINCEN114) by June 30 even if you don't file a tax return because you are over the US$10,000 threshold. Bear in mind you are the exact opposite of a wealthy tax evader and nothing bad will happen to you even if you just blow this whole business off.


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## BBCWatcher

maz57 said:


> Bear in mind you are the exact opposite of a wealthy tax evader and nothing bad will happen to you even if you just blow this whole business off.


Add the word "probably" to this claim and I might agree.

By the way, the U.S. government claims the $2350 fee reflects actual costs to provide that service under Republican (mostly) Congressional "user pays" directives. I believe that. It's a low volume process, paperwork and labor intensive, not paid by everybody losing citizenship (costs that must also be covered), and (unlike passports for example) it can only be conducted at embassies and consulates abroad, so the overhead expense share is high. Unfortunately the government probably has a valid point here.

For comparison, it costs over $1,000 in fees for a citizen to bring a foreign spouse to the U.S., and that's a much higher volume service with much more stateside processing and near universal payment.


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## BBCWatcher

GirlDownunder said:


> I had my relationship end due to an abusive partner & then had to fight to stay in AU under family violence act. I filed to stay square w/the US not knowing if we'd end up having to leave.


May I gently point out that this fact pattern, especially given how recently it occurred, seems like a very good reason to keep your options open with a second citizenship for at least some period of time.

Citizenship status is a rather separate issue from tax and financial filing compliance. As another poster mentioned, except for FinCEN Form 114 (and IRS Form 3520 or 3520-A if required) the U.S. doesn't actually have any penalties for non-filing if you genuinely have a zero (or less than zero) tax liability. FinCEN Form 114 is not expensive or time consuming to prepare and file.

I did mention less than zero. In particular, if your two children are U.S. citizens then a U.S. tax filing might pay you $2000 per year in free money in the form of the Additional Child Tax Credit. This assumes, primarily, you do not take the Foreign Earned Income Inclusion (but do take the Foreign Tax Credit) and that you are not above the income limit for that tax credit for your filing status. If you're qualified for that free money then most likely it's Australian tax free, though that's up to Australia.


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## maz57

BBCWatcher said:


> Add the word "probably" to this claim and I might agree.
> 
> By the way, the U.S. government claims the $2350 fee reflects actual costs to provide that service under Republican (mostly) Congressional "user pays" directives. I believe that. It's a low volume process, paperwork and labor intensive, not paid by everybody losing citizenship (costs that must also be covered), and (unlike passports for example) it can only be conducted at embassies and consulates abroad, so the overhead expense share is high. Unfortunately the government probably has a valid point here.
> 
> For comparison, it costs over $1,000 in fees for a citizen to bring a foreign spouse to the U.S., and that's a much higher volume service with much more stateside processing and near universal payment.


OK, I "probably" should have included "probably" in that sentence. 

I don't believe it matters much to the OP if the fee is justified, makes sense, or is total highway robbery. It still represents almost 20% of her annual income (Aussy dollars) and would blow a large smoking hole in the budget of a person living on a shoestring. It does, however, suggest that a nice quiet self-relinquishment might be the way forward in this instance.

I have heard it suggested that foreign banks could offer "renunciation fee loans" as a service to their low income customers when those customers complain about being FATCA'd. This would be a profitable little sideline to help the institution offset its own high cost of FATCA compliance.


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## JungleJim

You may not be able to renounce by simply taking up citizenship in Australia.

I took "an oath of affirmation" upon taking up citizenship in Australia in 1987. My passports were sent in and the Australian government gave them to the U.S. Then 2 1/2 years later, my 'cancelled' passports with a hole in the middle of them were given back to me with a letter from the U.S. government. It said, a mutual agreement with Australia in 1980's (forgot when but about 1986/7) had established that Australian and Americans could keep their citizenship when taking up citizenship in the other country and was no longer an automatic relinquishment.

Well crap I said... as this was after I had already written a nasty letter to the IRS saying my citizenship had been taken away when naturalised in Australian and I was earning under the minimum threshold for filing, and to quit bothering me every year about why I quit filing.

At some point I did cross the minimum filing threshold, and eventually I reentered the U.S. tax system of filing and back-filed under the "streamlined" program. Other than going to the U.S. every couple years to see the kids and grandkids, I wish I had lost that citizenship. But, that ship has sailed, as I have been filing for years now. Trying to do the 'right' thing, and paying taxes when I shouldn't be to a country I left 30 years ago.


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## diharv

In order to renounce you need to make an appt at the US Consulate nearest you. There is preliminary paperwork to fill out , among them Form 4079 (US is formnation after all). In form 4079 there is a question aking that if you became a citizen of another country , did you do it with the intention of relinquishing US citizenship. Answer this question truthfully with a "yes" and you should be set to go. That is what I did but I was not sure if I would have to renounce or not. When I was interviewed I was asked this question again and I said yes. So therefore I did not have to renounce and I left the consulate with the $450.00 still in my pocket. Relinquishment on the CLN looks better than a renouncement anyway , especially when it comes to having to present the cLN when entering the US.


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## GirlDownunder

Hi Maz,

Your reply has been the most understandable thus far...but that doesn't mean my head isn't still spinning. Yes, I came to AU with the intent of never returning to the USA (& I have not returned since I left in 2007 and do not wish to).

It took from 2008- until nearly 2009 to gain our permanent residency (stuck in immigration limbo re: the family violence appeal), then we had to wait the allotted time before we could acquire our AU citizenship- which we then did in 2012. In the time since, I have been both recovering from a massive car accident as well as losing my employment (work place closed), gaining a certificate, & (now physically unable to do the previous work, post-car crash) trying to establish a business where I could make an income allowing for that. 

I can't believe that in trying to do the "right things" on principle (filing tax, voting) until I figured out all of this relinquish/renounce business, I'm further penalized. Looking at what has happened to all of those poor Canadian people re: not ever having filed, I certainly don't wish to tempt fate.

So, although completely intending to give up my US citizenship from the day I landed here, a terrible, complicated series of events prevented me from doing it. I now want to finally relinquish my US citizenship, but $3000 is a LOT of money to me & I feel I'm paying my own ransom to the USA to release me! 

(Rant) This entire, draining business of not being able to find/read/see any sort of proper instruction on relinquishing nor any real corroboration is beyond stressful. Each link takes me back to a page I read already- a page that links to another unhelpful page. Someone must have the info on relinquishing vs. renouncing? In fact, I find many, many pages stating it is far better to relinquish than to renounce. Why? Where are the examples of people who did this- there must be many!

The heavy-handedness & patronizing way the giving up of US citizenship is carried out is beyond insulting ("come back a week later- you go home & you think about it")- wtf is that about? Do they truly believe that the idea popped into my head as I was walking down the street? Even if it had, that's my business- especially when I'm being extorted for $3000 to do so. (end of rant).

I want my ties to the US completely severed. If there's a way to do so & to retain the money that I have saved for my children, I would like to hear about it.

Again- many thanks for your reply (and those of the rest who took time to write- thanks also)


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## Bevdeforges

Unfortunately, from what I've been able to find, the terms "relinquishment" and "renunciation" are considered to be one and the same - at least by the US State Department, which is the group within the US government that handles these matters.

The easiest (and certainly the cheapest) route might be to simply file your FBARs (as this is simply a reporting vehicle and doesn't result in any tax calculations) and then drop off the IRS radar. As far as they are concerned, your income has most likely dropped beneath the filing threshold - something they really can't tell much about unless you have US sources of income. Or are getting massive amounts of interest from your bank accounts.

The FBARs can be matched up against the reports from the banks, which are supposed to identify US customers based on their place of birth. But with the FBARs you only report the account information and a single (high) balance for the year. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

GirlDownunder said:


> Looking at what has happened to all of those poor Canadian people re: not ever having filed, I certainly don't wish to tempt fate.


Which Canadians are you referring to, and what happenings? I literally have no idea what you're talking about.



> This entire, draining business of not being able to find/read/see any sort of proper instruction....
> The heavy-handedness & patronizing way the giving up of US citizenship is carried out is beyond insulting ("come back a week later- you go home & you think about it")- wtf is that about?


I've quoted both parts of what you wrote since I think you've illustrated the point well. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship is irrevocable. If you cannot find "proper instruction," then maybe, just maybe, it's a terrific idea if the government you're planning to divorce (with no plausible opportunity for remarriage) personally, thoroughly, truthfully, and politely briefs you on the legal and practical aspects of what you're about to undertake, answers any questions you have, then gives you time to make a final decision and/or to research further any aspects that concern you.

This is not like deciding whether to order pizza or Chinese food for dinner tonight. It's an important, life-altering decision. A carefully administered process is entirely reasonable and proper in the circumstances.

If you're donating a kidney, any reasonable, ethical medical system makes sure you provide what's called "informed consent," that you demonstrate that you know what's going on and have carefully considered the various risks. Irrevocable citizenship renunciation is analogous. You are terminating an inseparable set of rights, privileges, and obligations. If you (and others) didn't have the opportunity to provide informed consent then government bureaucrats would be able to terminate your citizenship (Australian, U.S., whatever) without your full and considered consent. That would be much, much worse and ripe for abuse. Citizens must not be stripped of their citizenships without their competent, informed consent.

If you'd like to pursue either path -- attempting to document relinquishment of U.S. citizenship or renunciation of U.S. citizenship -- then take a break from this forum and simply contact your local U.S. embassy or consulate. No matter what you'll be dealing with them, in person. It's the same path anyway because, before you can renounce, the consular officer asks you a series of questions to determine whether you have already relinquished U.S. citizenship. Just answer those questions truthfully. If you have relinquished, then you have already lost U.S. citizenship. The consular officer will then help you document that legal fact with a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN). If you haven't, you then have the option to renounce, and that will cost US$2350. If you don't want to pay the fee (or cannot pay the fee), then I'm sorry to say you won't be renouncing U.S. citizenship.


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## GirlDownunder

BBCWatcher said:


> Which Canadians are you referring to, and what happenings? I literally have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> I've quoted both parts of what you wrote since I think you've illustrated the point well. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship is irrevocable. This is not like deciding whether to order pizza or Chinese food for dinner tonight.


1) Google, "canadians caught in facta". I was referring to those here who basically advise I stop filing tax returns. Though clear as mud, it seems being up to date is one of the questions they ask.

2) Yes, I do grasp the concept of what I am attempting to do. I am not speaking of needing to know "my rights/what I will be giving up". I know. I am saying that there ought to be a booklet or packet which lays this out as well as defining relinquish vs. renounce, & then list the forms required. If you need more info or help, you ring. Then, when you are confident, you apply. The sending someone home to "think about" what they are there to attend to is patronizing. Offering it is one thing- insisting is another (especially those of us who must travel a very long way to an embassy).

I intend to ring the embassy here, this week, if work permits. Over the weekend I was hoping to find a few people, here, who are in my country & situation who might shed specific light. I like to have an idea of what I'm stepping into from the people who've actually been through it.


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## Bevdeforges

Obviously, the government doesn't exactly "encourage" folks to renounce. I think some Consulates are more sympathetic than others, too. Some post information on their websites, while other just sort of figure people will ask if they're interested.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

BBCWatcher said:


> Which Canadians are you referring to, and what happenings? I literally have no idea what you're talking about.


I was also scratching my head, as a Canadian. On one level, nothing terribly bad is happening. Dual citizens such as myself simply lie to their banks to avoid FATCA reporting, and continue ignoring the IRS and FBAR and all that. It's really rather easy.


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## Nononymous

GirlDownunder said:


> 1) Google, "canadians caught in facta". I was referring to those here who basically advise I stop filing tax returns. Though clear as mud, it seems being up to date is one of the questions they ask.


What do you mean, "one of the questions they ask"? If I remember correctly, during the renunciation process you are asked to self-certify (i.e. it's one of the questions on the form) that you're up to date on taxes, but the consulate doesn't really care about the answer. They only handle citizenship issues.

The information is out there, maybe in separate places, but it's not hard to find.

Citizenship and tax issues are quite separate. If it's determined by the consulate that you relinquished citizenship, you can have this documented with a CLN at no cost; if you don't meet the criteria your only option is to renounce and pay $2350. After that you are supposed to get your tax affairs in order (be current for the past five years then do the exit-year thing). In your case you are at least current on your tax filings, so the only barrier to renunciation is cost. 

However, you're getting lots of good advice here to just pretend your income dropped closer to zero, stop sending in returns, and ignore the IRS for the rest of your days. Keep up your FBAR filings, it takes all of ten minutes I'm told, as that's the only one with (highly theoretical in your case) penalties. You'll save money on accountants, not spend a bunch renouncing (travel to the consulate once or twice, which might be significant, plus the fee) and not have to worry.


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## Pacifica

GirlDownunder said:


> Over the weekend I was hoping to find a few people, here, who are in my country & situation who might shed specific light.


Google Consulate Report Directory and go to the Perth chapter. There’s only one report for Perth unfortunately. It’s about a renunciation in 2013 and her situation may well be different than yours (she doesn’t really go into detail about it). Anyway, the person described the Perth staff as “extremely courteous and professional,” and that they required two visits two weeks apart. You might want to take a look at the Melbourne chapter as well – being in the same country, they may be operating similarly, but I don’t know.

Note things can change over time, but hopefully they’re still “extremely courteous and professional.” Also in recent years, some consulates have switched from two visits to one for renunciations. I've no clue if Perth has or not. Most seem to do relinquishments in one visit.


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## maz57

Unfortunately, just like the US tax system, the procedure for getting rid of US citizenship is a mess. Often it depends on which US consulate you visit. Some have long waiting lists, some don't. Some will process you in one visit, some make you go away and come back for a second appointment after you have "thought about it". Some Consular officials actually know US law on the matter, some don't.

Here in Canada where there are a lot of people wanting to shed US citizenship there is by now a well-established "grapevine" that informs people which Consulates are accommodating and which ones to stay away from. There are a few reports from Australian consulates here: http://*****************.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Consulate-Report-Directory-2015.03.g.pdf

Although I have no numbers to back it up, I suspect there are far more Canadians wishing to give up US citizenship than Australians and therefore the US consulates in Canada have generally gotten more organized. Still, many Canadians report traveling long distances even if there is a US consulate near them for the express purpose of avoiding one of the bad actors. Example: the Consulate near me is a known trouble spot (with a one year waiting list) and most travel to the next province to avoid it if at all possible. It appears there may only be 2 in Australia (one in Melbourne and the other in Perth) and so practically speaking there may be no choice anyway.

The more the OP educates herself on this subject, the better. There are many documented cases of people who went to their appointment to inform the Consular officer of a past relinquishment who were told instead they must pay the high fee and swear the oath on the spot. Those who knew the law, stood their ground, and insisted their file be sent on to DC generally got their CLN in the end. Obviously there is no need for a second appointment in the case of a past relinquishment; the deed is long since done. The CLN is merely a piece of paper documenting that fact.


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## maz57

JungleJim said:


> You may not be able to renounce by simply taking up citizenship in Australia.
> 
> I took "an oath of affirmation" upon taking up citizenship in Australia in 1987. My passports were sent in and the Australian government gave them to the U.S. Then 2 1/2 years later, my 'cancelled' passports with a hole in the middle of them were given back to me with a letter from the U.S. government. It said, a mutual agreement with Australia in 1980's (forgot when but about 1986/7) had established that Australian and Americans could keep their citizenship when taking up citizenship in the other country and was no longer an automatic relinquishment.
> 
> Well crap I said... as this was after I had already written a nasty letter to the IRS saying my citizenship had been taken away when naturalised in Australian and I was earning under the minimum threshold for filing, and to quit bothering me every year about why I quit filing.
> 
> At some point I did cross the minimum filing threshold, and eventually I reentered the U.S. tax system of filing and back-filed under the "streamlined" program. Other than going to the U.S. every couple years to see the kids and grandkids, I wish I had lost that citizenship. But, that ship has sailed, as I have been filing for years now. Trying to do the 'right' thing, and paying taxes when I shouldn't be to a country I left 30 years ago.


Holy smokes, JungleJim! You had your freedom but due to being grossly misinformed you stepped back onto the treadmill! As I mentioned in an earlier post the whole matter hinges on the individual's intent. If you intended to lose US citizenship at the time, you lost it.

A lot of the confusion stems from the fact that US law changed along the line. Before that ruling, US law said that taking on another citizenship was grounds for losing US citizenship. Later, a US court ruled that if another citizenship was acquired, the default US assumption would be that the individual intended to keep their US citizenship. But INA s. 349a still states that if you intended to lose US citizenship upon naturalizing in another state then that is sufficient to lose it. In other words, do nothing and you remain a US citizen; if you intended to lose that citizenship then you lost it. Whether or not you set foot in a Consulate to document the fact is irrelevant. If you had simply returned that letter and passport with a note saying "Thanks, but no thanks; I'm content to be an Australian, period." that would have been the end of it.

Water under the bridge...sigh.

The US government has been notoriously unhelpful in providing information about its own laws so that people can make an informed decision.


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## maz57

GirlDownunder said:


> Looking at what has happened to all of those poor Canadian people re: not ever having filed, I certainly don't wish to tempt fate.


I suspect what you are referring to here are the Canadians who were unscrupulously herded into the OVDI program by so-called tax "experts" in the early days of this US tax fiasco. This was well before the more recent "streamlined" programs came into existence.

Because the OVDI program had fixed penalties these poor people had to pay large portions of their retirement savings to the IRS merely to get "caught up" on their US filings when a simple "quiet disclosure' would have sufficed instead. I actually had a guy who suggested I sign up for that abomination; thank God I did my research and gave it (and him) a pass. 

The IRS was happy to fleece them even though they knew very well these people were not criminal tax evaders. The whole business was a shameful IRS abuse and has left a bitter taste in the mouths of many Canadians. No wonder there are so many lined up at the Consulates shedding US citizenship.


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## maz57

Nononymous said:


> What do you mean, "one of the questions they ask"? If I remember correctly, during the renunciation process you are asked to self-certify (i.e. it's one of the questions on the form) that you're up to date on taxes, but the consulate doesn't really care about the answer. They only handle citizenship issues.


Just to be crystal clear, the Consular officer is not only not supposed to ask anything about taxes, he neither has the information nor the expertise to even make a determination. Citizenship and tax are totally separate matters; at most the Consulate might suggest you must contact the IRS to clear up your taxes and exit the US tax system. Most don't even mention it.

It is on Form 8854 (the expatriation tax form) where one certifies 5 years tax compliance. Besides, in the case of documenting a past relinquishment, that person has already lost US citizenship so the tax situation can't possibly have anything to do with it.


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## GirlDownunder

maz57 said:


> It is on Form 8854 (the expatriation tax form) where one certifies 5 years tax compliance. Besides, in the case of documenting a past relinquishment, that person has already lost US citizenship so the tax situation can't possibly have anything to do with it.


Yes, this is what I meant- sorry I used the term, "asked". To me, I took it as needing to file for five years before I could lodge for relinquishing. After-the-fact, it seems (maybe?) that I was supposed to not pay, then make it up just prior to lodging???

It's all so horribly twisted!

_"Those who knew the law, stood their ground, and insisted their file be sent on to DC generally got their CLN in the end. Obviously there is no need for a second appointment in the case of a past relinquishment; the deed is long since done. The CLN is merely a piece of paper documenting that fact. "_

What exactly is pointed out in order they "knew the law"? That I'm aware I can state that it was my intent to nullify my US citizenship? If that's all there was to it, then there wouldn't be the extra invasive questioning about filng taxes, voting, etc...It's at once supposedly an easy, final utterance tripped up by red-tape which tries to deny you.

At this point, I realize I'll have to go to Perth. Is there any point in ringing them to ask about it ahead of time? Or is it a face-to-face thing that is required.

Can the more learned speak to this?

Thanks again- everyone- for your assistance.


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## maz57

I'd start by emailing the Perth consulate, stating that you have relinquished your US citizenship because that was what you intended to do when you became an Australian, and asking what their process is to document that fact and get your CLN. 

You will still eventually have to appear in person, but you will be able to gather all the paperwork they are going to require in hand before showing up on their doorstep. By doing that ahead of time, you reduce the chances of them "ambushing" you with some bureaucratic nonsense that stops the process in its tracks. If they start with the US$2350 crap to take the renunciation oath tell them that you have already lost US citizenship and you don't need to swear an oath. You are merely asking for the official documentation that shows that fact and believe there should be no charge for issuing a piece of paper. They don't make the determination there on the spot anyway; they gather all the "evidence" and send the file on to Washington where the final decision is made. Once a file makes it to DC it is very rare that a request is denied.

Keep a record of all the correspondence. Be ready for obstruction, delays, confusion, and general bureaucratic annoyance. Be assertive.


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## JakDac

Do you pay US taxes now ?


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## GirlDownunder

Sorry all- the email saying there were replies went into spam & I just now saw it.

Yes Jak, I have filed taxes all along- as I'm supposed to! Or, so I thought...It's a really sneaky set of forms that seem to want to trip you up. When I read: "have you voted", & "have you filed taxes", I take it to mean it's a _prerequisite_. If it were something else, it would say _"you cannot relinquish if you vote or file taxes"_! Likewise, the final IRS form, which asks if you have the fives years of filing- I took it to mean, _after_ taking my AU citizenship- like a "waiting period".

So, _I'm_ looking at forms as if they're supposed to be helpful, & instead, I was supposed to look at it all like a sneaky, smarmy ambulance-chasing lawyer.

I have my appt. in Perth for this coming week.

What forms ought I have with me & filled out?

Thanks everyone. Sorry to _rant_ so much. It's just hideous to think I may lose 1/5 of my year's income trying to do the right thing.


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## BBCWatcher

They're not "sneaky." They're asking a set of simple factual questions, and you answer them truthfully. The State Department then determines whether, based on those facts, you've relinquished or not.

It's perfectly straightforward. This isn't a criminal investigation. It's an administrative process to determine your current status. The only way it can turn into a criminal investigation is if you lie. Don't do that.

If you're happy with the determination, great. If you're unhappy then the determination is legally reviewable in a court -- you can hire an attorney -- or you can renounce U.S. citizenship ($2350).


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## GirlDownunder

It's sneaky. If the point was the gov't "making sure" things were followed properly, there would be a booklet you could pick up with instructions. There would be an entity directly responsible. Burying details inside of gov't articles & codes & leaving it up to interpretation is sneaky. 
The acceptance process is ambiguous & left to the gov't individual at that moment. One day might be "no", next day, "yes". Without proper instructions & continuity, the process is a sham.


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## BBCWatcher

Booklet? It's 2015, a full quarter century after the invention of the Web. I'm not sure what the great mystery here is when relinquishment and renunciation details are posted.


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## GirlDownunder

There is nothing concrete posted. If there is, please link it. Even here, there is ambiguity. Site after site pointing to possible definitions of etc & more- except, "oh, a particular consulate might feel differently"...as if all is left to a "feeling" or mood of a local consulate person. This is well documented, btw. Where are the absolutes there?

Are you saying that a relinguishing document which asks: have you voted/have you filed taxes -- which actually means, "if yes, we will scrutinize you further but not tell you that's what answering yes means" isn't sneaky...well, I don't know what else you'd call it.

Again- if leaving the US & in order to claim relinquishing dictates certain criteria- it ought to be spelled out clearly by the gov't requiring it. If not- then it's a money-grab, pure & simple. 

Yes, a booklet if fine. <Snip>


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## BBCWatcher

Determining whether a person has relinquished citizenship or not is simply based on the pattern of facts. It's quite simple: either you acted as if you continued to possess citizenship or you didn't.

There's nothing "sneaky" about it. Either you voted, or you didn't. Either you filed a tax return, or you didn't. Either you renewed your passport, or you didn't. You answer the questions asked, truthfully, and you get an administrative determination yay or nay. If you don't like the administrative determination you then have two possible options: file an appeal, or renunciation.

It's quite simple, truly. You may not like this straightforward process, but that's the process.


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