# Crime in Mexico



## elsonador

Hola todos,

I am a virgin to this site and rarely post on other forums. Moving to Mexico is in my sights...two years from now, I currently live in El Paso Texas. My question for those of you who have made the big move (I'm envious) is, what cities would you consider least violent, and best to raise a family in the current condition that the country seems to be in with the cartels/drug wars etc....and is the violence currently as bad as US media portrays it? I understand Mexican culture, legal system, reliability on police and all that is far different from that of the US..that is not my concern. My question is simply are there still places safe to raise a family, live, and work/own a business?

Thank you for all and any response.
I have given up on the American way of life and thinking...just waiting to make the big move!


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## RVGRINGO

You've been subjected to too much sensationalistic press. Visit and explore. You also live in a border area that is seriously affected by the drug wars and is not representative of the interior.


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## elsonador

Thank you for the response, yea I figured as much about the press. My girlfriend is from Cd Juarez, I have only been to Juarez, San Lucas, San Jose and most of the surrounding areas of Cabo...She is a firm believer no one can have a business in Mexico without being extorted or harassed by gangs/cartel. I am prepared to learn the language and fully submerse myself into the culture and way of life. As far as places that aren't heavily ****** influenced, what would you think are some nice places to live/work? Right now we are both looking into Guanajuato city, Guadalajara and Laguna de Chapala areas. Any input is welcomed....


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## MtnWoman

Any of those choices would be safe with good schools and pleasant neighborhoods. The three are quite different in other respects. Guanajuato is a medium sized city, Guadalajara is the 2nd largest city in Mexico and Lakeside is a series of small villages, some heavily ******-ized and others not so much.

I would suggest visiting all three and doing some serious market research before you commit. Many small businesses in Mexico last only a few months and fold. Some look iffy from the start but others seem so promising that the closing is a surprise. Be very careful that you choose a location where there is a need for your product or service but not a lot of competition.


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## conklinwh

To me the 1st three key questions are beach or not, driving distance to the border and level of expats. We aren't beach folk so that not an issue. San Miguel was our entry point as had art culture, history and a very easy entry point to explore options. We live in a very small town less than hour from San Miguel & Queretaro. For larger cities, I really like Guanajuato, Oaxaca, San Cristobal and Patzcuaro. I grew up in NYC area so larger cities like Morelia and Quetretaro are great to visit but too large to live in for us.
As RV ****** said, you need to try a few places to see what works for you.


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## kazslo

elsonador said:


> She is a firm believer no one can have a business in Mexico without being extorted or harassed by gangs/cartel.


From what I've experienced, that depends a lot on the industry - bars and cd/dvd stores near me are pressed hard by the cartel. Depending on how heavily the cartel presence is in your location would depend on whether you could still make enough money while figuring in this 'cost of doing business'. Lots of opportunity in comparison to the US for building your own business (depending on how much you have to invest), just other costs and considerations to make.


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## elsonador

MtnWoman- Thanks for the input on small business and such. 
I think exploring is the best way to find out...just looking to move somewhere thats not "little America" and safe to work, live, and educate  

I may have to start a new thread for this next question...It is about childrens citizenships, If one parent is a US citizen, the other a Mexican citizen...kids born in Mexico, I assume become Mexican citizens? Mexico does not have dual citizenship from what I read correct?


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## elsonador

RVGRINGO said:


> You may become a naturalized Mexican citizen, as the spouse of a Mexican, after two years on an inmigrante credencial. At that time, you would have dual citizenship yourself. If that is your intent, you might need to think about your vehicle; you could no longer keep a foreign (USA) registered vehicle in Mexico and would have to remove it from the country. During the two year period, there are restrictions on how long you can be outside of Mexico, but they are generous.


Thanks for the info. I intend to sell my US vehicle and buy in Mexico when the time comes. Glad there are people with such knowledge and good answers. Back to the crime front if I can redirect this...any guess as to if the drug violence will ever cease or even mellow? Maybe a bit of a fantasy...but with all the expats living in the interior as you said before, it must be safe enough to manage.

appreciate the input guys.


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## RVGRINGO

I guess it is difficult for those of us living in Mexico's interior to imagine what your perception of our lives might be. Why don't you list your perceptions and let us react to them? We have posters in various parts of Mexico and the responses might be interesting.


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## elsonador

RVGRINGO said:


> I guess it is difficult for those of us living in Mexico's interior to imagine what your perception of our lives might be. Why don't you list your perceptions and let us react to them? We have posters in various parts of Mexico and the responses might be interesting.


Well being from Cd Juarez/El Paso...drive bus a shootings are common. Most businesses bars, restaurants, stores have left the Mexican side for the US side due to extortion or lack of customers due to cartel violence. Most bars ad restaurants that are still in Cd Juarez have to give money to one of the two cartels in the region, which leads to those businesses becoming targets of the opposite cartel. We were in a popular bar on a Saturday night last year and a shooter drove by and unloaded on the place. Also no one seems to be innocent...women and children are often shot at random. Hmm when we were in Cabo San Lucas a popular bar burned down, my first assumption originally being from Chicago was insurance claim...my girlfriend assumed they refused to pay a cartel "their cut" and that was the end result. 

We both want to live in Mexico and raise a family/work there...I'm just trying to grasp the feasibility of it. And where the safest locations are. Again I'm not concerned in the difference of law enforcement or cultural, just mainly cartel violence/shootings. Would you say it is still safe to drive from the border to the interior? Or better to fly?
Thanks for the responses.


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## RVGRINGO

There have been rare incidents, such as you describe, in Guadalajara. However, one can only speculate on the cause and assumptions are, as you know, frequently wrong.
Hanging out in bars is not something that I've ever done, anywhere.
If you are Mexican, you can work here, but not as a foreigner without specific permission on your visa from Immigration (INM).
Although the drug war is widespread, the interior of Mexico remains quite different from the border zones and also much different than the tourist destination cities on the coasts and all of Baja; the latter being a really different world, which doesn't even seem like Mexico.


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## elsonador

Yea I hear the same about Baja and it's difference to the main land. Do you know is it a difficult process to get the work permission? Also I had talked to a ****** in Baja who spoke of starting a Mexican "corporation" as the best way to buy homes,land, and operate businesses. 

Well I don't think hanging out in bars should automatically make you a target. 

Any news as to the possible changes that might be made in an attempt to slow or stop the drug violence, or is it something that is too strong and corrupt to be touched?


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## RVGRINGO

Getting permission to work in Mexico generally requires that a Mexican isn't being deprived of potential employment. As such, your 'special skills and talents' should be rare to non-existent in the area you apply. Having an 'investor' visa and creating employment for a few Mexicans will always be easier. In that case, you would need to form a Mexican company, but it is not needed to purchase property. Actually, it can make it more complicated and more expensive.
Going to bars isn't a good idea. If a 'target' is present, the hand grenade won't know the difference. 
The drug war in Mexico will only end when the appetite for drugs in the USA ends and there is no market. The difference in Mexico is that the authorities don't simply try to catch and hold the 'bad guys'; they shoot to kill and are pretty effective. That tends to anger the bad guys, who shoot back.


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## elsonador

Interesting.

And as far as driving through the country to the interior?


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## tepetapan

.... We were in a popular bar on a Saturday night last year and a shooter drove by and unloaded on the place. . 
Man, you are a cool dude. ..I know it happens in Chicago every weekend but I try to avoid those places....I guess that´s why you tend to treat it as an everyday affair.


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## elsonador

tepetapan said:


> .... We were in a popular bar on a Saturday night last year and a shooter drove by and unloaded on the place. .
> Man, you are a cool dude. ..I know it happens in Chicago every weekend but I try to avoid those places....I guess that´s why you tend to treat it as an everyday affair.


This has nothing to do with being "a cool dude" or being from Chicago...thanks for the input though. We just tend to go out drinking, dancing etc...people shouldn't fear enjoying themselves...thus why I asked about the rest of the country. We still go out in Juarez...it is her home. Also I tend to carry myself different when abroad regardless of where...anyone with some useful input?


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## chicois8

RVGRINGO states" 
The drug war in Mexico will only end when the appetite for drugs in the USA ends and there is no market."

I think I would have added : and CANADA after USA in his answer................


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## elsonador

Yea the drug war is sad...living here on the border is tough. Right across the way are innocent families and working class Mexicans who face the violence daily. All because other countries need for drugs...

Whats your opinion on driving from the border to the interior? Some places safer than others? Any rules to live by?


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## circle110

elsonador said:


> Whats your opinion on driving from the border to the interior? Some places safer than others? Any rules to live by?


We've made the trip from Guanajuato to the border and back four times in the last year and have not personally seen any violence or problems. We do see a lot of military presence so you get a creepy feeling of the potential for trouble but we have had no first hand experience, fortunately.

I think the general consensus is that you ought to stick to the main "cuota" highways, only travel during the daytime and don't drive a big, expensive late model pickup or SUV since those are the principal carjacking targets.

Lots of folks here on this forum make the drive from the central area of Mexico to the border. We'll be going again in a few weeks and I hope we'll be able to report yet another smooth trip.


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## kazslo

elsonador said:


> Yea the drug war is sad...living here on the border is tough. Right across the way are innocent families and working class Mexicans who face the violence daily. All because other countries need for drugs...
> 
> Whats your opinion on driving from the border to the interior? Some places safer than others? Any rules to live by?


I'm not a preacher of fear, or of paradise for that matter, so I'll throw in my 2 cents of experience:

When I drove down the first time, I took a route through Matamoros and Tamico. We had a big hangup at the border, and ended up entering Mexico about 8pm. We drove all night, and never had any threats. I did see a nice automatic tommy-gun style gun sitting on the lap of a passenger in another truck when we were getting searched at the second aduana post - not a fun thing to see at that moment. I definitely learned to mind my own business and -hope- nobody else gets in mine.

Looking back, driving in the night was really one of the most irresponsible and unnecessary things I could have done. A few good tips I learned for the next trip are to not be in a rush, mind your business, and seriously travel only by day. The 12 hours max you will loose overnight is well worth avoiding driving in the dark alone for hours without seeing ANYBODY and the risks associated with that.

I own a bar about an hour outside of Xalapa. We don't have any problems with extortions, but that's the reason we're not in/near the city. That cost of business is just too expensive for me. The whole experience of driving and running a business like this has really change my mindset - that here you either play by the rules, or you get taken out of the game.


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## elsonador

kazslo- Thanks for the response, thats pretty much the info I was looking for. The "rules" of driving seem easy enough to follow.

In your opinion most major cities are hard places to run legitimate bars/restaurants without cartel pressure?


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## kazslo

elsonador said:


> kazslo- Thanks for the response, thats pretty much the info I was looking for. The "rules" of driving seem easy enough to follow.
> 
> In your opinion most major cities are hard places to run legitimate bars/restaurants without cartel pressure?


I can only speak for the few cities I know (Xalapa, Veracruz, and Poza Rica), and as an owner of a bar, cd/dvd store, club, etc you can expect to be extorted. It really depends on how much business you are doing - if they see you are making lots of money they'll want their cut. Smaller restaurants that don't serve liquor aren't really bothered with. Obviously there are lots of bars and such still in the city, so they must be making some money, just for me the whole risk/reward thing doesn't work out in my head. I'd rather take the hour drive to run a business with a little less profit but much less worry/cost.


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## Casablanca

*Security*



RVGRINGO said:


> You've been subjected to too much sensationalistic press. Visit and explore. You also live in a border area that is seriously affected by the drug wars and is not representative of the interior.


I have read a US State Dept. alert that recommends US citizens not drive at night in Guadalajara...and that there have been problems on the road between the city of Guadalajara and the airport. Do you consider this sensationalistic?

I'm asking this question seriously as I am contemplating living in Ajijic but the airport at GDL is not that far away.


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## pappabee

Casablanca said:


> I have read a US State Dept. alert that recommends US citizens not drive at night in Guadalajara...and that there have been problems on the road between the city of Guadalajara and the airport. Do you consider this sensationalistic?
> 
> I'm asking this question seriously as I am contemplating living in Ajijic but the airport at GDL is not that far away.


I live in Ajijic and find it safer than when I lived in Cleveland, Philly, Dallas, Austin and Chicago. I personally feel that the US press spends much to much time telling us how unsafe it is here. Yes there is a lot of very nasty drug violence here but not anything like the gang violence in the states. 

I have yet to see a city or state advisory for people to stay out of downtown Chicago after dark. FYI that alert was published two days after the problem happened and there haven't been any more at the airport since. 

Something of interest that was recently published in the Guadalajara Reporter was the fact that in the entire State of Jalisco there were only 31 reported break ins in the entire year 2010. If you would look into the police blotter in Cleveland there were 35 break-ins in December 2010. Which place is safer? 

Oh and by the way, I'm sure I don't want to live in Egypt at this moment either.

Because we're so close to the US and because there are so many of us living in the Lakeshore Area, people who live in the States are more concerned. But most of us living here feel save (other wise would we stay?)


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## RVGRINGO

You keep going back to that question. Just do it. Thousands do it every day. Keep to the main roads and 'cuotas', drive in daylight only and don't invite trouble by flashing 'bling', money or a blacked out SUV or fancy pick-up.


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## elsonador

kazslo said:


> I can only speak for the few cities I know (Xalapa, Veracruz, and Poza Rica), and as an owner of a bar, cd/dvd store, club, etc you can expect to be extorted. It really depends on how much business you are doing - if they see you are making lots of money they'll want their cut. Smaller restaurants that don't serve liquor aren't really bothered with. Obviously there are lots of bars and such still in the city, so they must be making some money, just for me the whole risk/reward thing doesn't work out in my head. I'd rather take the hour drive to run a business with a little less profit but much less worry/cost.


Yeah, when I am prepared to make the drive, I don't plan to drive a car with US plates or a nice/newer car at that. Only by day of course.

kazslo- Obviously anything can happen to anyone at any time, any place. But what is your knowledge of cartel involvement with people owning apartment buildings or BnBs? Just in general of course.

-thanks


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## johnmex

pappabee said:


> Something of interest that was recently published in the Guadalajara Reporter was the fact that in the entire State of Jalisco there were only 31 reported break ins in the entire year 2010. If you would look into the police blotter in Cleveland there were 35 break-ins in December 2010. Which place is safer?


Not a fair question. Most robberies go un-reported here. Most people know the police are basically inept and won't catch anyone. So, why bother?


I do agree that it seems safer here in Mexico though.


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## kcowan

Some visitors got their SUV taken at night near Tepic in the fall. They left with just their clothes. So it can happen. The cartels that operate in Tepic have been warned to leave tourists alone. But I would not travel at night around there. Our Spanish teacher returns to Tepic each month to visit her family. She says it is not nice anymore although she never feels at risk. We live in PV.

(I would not drive through Alabama in an expensive car either.)


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## pappabee

kcowan said:


> Some visitors got their SUV taken at night near Tepic in the fall. They left with just their clothes. So it can happen. The cartels that operate in Tepic have been warned to leave tourists alone. But I would not travel at night around there. Our Spanish teacher returns to Tepic each month to visit her family. She says it is not nice anymore although she never feels at risk. We live in PV.
> 
> (I would not drive through Alabama in an expensive car either.)


In most cities in this world you have to take some simple precautions to protect yourself and your goods. So long as there are poor people there will be some crime and as long as some people walk around in jewels, flashing money and drive expensive cars with things in them there will be some crime. The Romans thought they had the answer to crime. If you take something they'd cut of your hand. Well there were a lot of people back then with only one hand. Crime has been around since the apple from the tree and will probably be around when the last day comes. Our job is to to our best to try to keep us and ours out of it's way.


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## rfairbro

elsonador said:


> Hola todos,
> 
> I am a virgin to this site and rarely post on other forums. Moving to Mexico is in my sights...two years from now, I currently live in El Paso Texas. My question for those of you who have made the big move (I'm envious) is, what cities would you consider least violent, and best to raise a family in the current condition that the country seems to be in with the cartels/drug wars etc....and is the violence currently as bad as US media portrays it? I understand Mexican culture, legal system, reliability on police and all that is far different from that of the US..that is not my concern. My question is simply are there still places safe to raise a family, live, and work/own a business?
> 
> Thank you for all and any response.
> I have given up on the American way of life and thinking...just waiting to make the big move!


Another area to consider, although the furthest to drive from the US is Merida, Yucatan. My wife and I have been travelling there since 2003 and now have a house there. It has been voted the safest city in Mexico for some years now and it lives up to its reputation. Yes, crime does happen there, even violent crime once in a blue moon. It is a very good area to raise a family as well. The worst crime we have experienced there is the heat. Between April-June it can get to be over 40 (100F) and 80-100% humidity.

There is an expat community of about 10,000 who are mostly located in centro, where the old colonial houses are located. 

As far as the drug cartels, for some reason they pretty well leave Merida alone. Not the same can be said of the neighbouring state of Quintana Roo, especially Cancun. Our Mexican friends say they have heard this is so because the cartels have agreed with each other that Merida is hands off to any of them because it is a safe haven for their families. It could also be the amount of police that patrol the streets everyday. An insane amount by Canadian/American standards. However, we have never felt intimidated by them. And of the expats that have needed their services due to the rare b&e, most report of the professionalism and courtesy the police have extended them.

Most of our friends are not from the expat community, but are Mexican so we get the real story of what goes on in the city on a day to day basis. I have never heard of any business getting shaken by the cartels for protection money there. Never. The worst the locals complain about are the 'chilangos' (people from Mexico City) moving in who bring their attitudes and problems with them. But these ones mostly live in one barrio in the north of the city and mostly keep to themselves.

It's not perfect paradise. There are problems, that's for sure. But I wouldn't hesitate to relocate my family to Merida purely for the quality of life and old family values that still seems to be instilled in most of the children.


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## m55vette

Casablanca said:


> I have read a US State Dept. alert that recommends US citizens not drive at night in Guadalajara...and that there have been problems on the road between the city of Guadalajara and the airport. Do you consider this sensationalistic?
> 
> I'm asking this question seriously as I am contemplating living in Ajijic but the airport at GDL is not that far away.


The US State Department should issue a warning for down town Reno, NV, 5 shootings and stabbings in a 10 day period in a tourist area. 4 dead, others seriously injured. 

The State Dept warning was issued a while back based on an evening when there was a road block by criminals if I am not mistaken. It was not an ongoing issue.


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## GeorgGrey

*Changing*



elsonador said:


> Hola todos,
> 
> I am a virgin to this site and rarely post on other forums. Moving to Mexico is in my sights...two years from now, I currently live in El Paso Texas. My question for those of you who have made the big move (I'm envious) is, what cities would you consider least violent, and best to raise a family in the current condition that the country seems to be in with the cartels/drug wars etc....and is the violence currently as bad as US media portrays it? I understand Mexican culture, legal system, reliability on police and all that is far different from that of the US..that is not my concern. My question is simply are there still places safe to raise a family, live, and work/own a business?
> 
> Thank you for all and any response.
> I have given up on the American way of life and thinking...just waiting to make the big move!


When I came to Veracruz 10 years ago, it was pretty untouched by violence, and that was pretty cool. Until some cartels started a turf war in ....... Veracruz - and it's pretty bad now.

See, your question is kind of difficult to answer, since, as in any war, battle lines move.

However, and this is important, as a normal citizen or expat you are NOT considered a combatant.  Sad to say, but most of the people getting killed are themselves in one way or another involved with the cartels.


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## jasavak

Things have changed . I was surprised when I was at a funeral Tuesday when several people living in Monterrey started to tell me how things have been changing in Mexico . Thieves now use special equipment to rip off the doors and break the walls of homes to rob them and kill anyone inside . They target 4x4 vehicles for theft and kill people much more than before . 

Its not just the cartels , its organized and amateur thieves and killers . They also killed a married couple from the states who ran a Christian group after they robbed them .


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## FHBOY

jasavak said:


> Things have changed .... They also killed a married couple from the states who ran a Christian group after they robbed them .


Again, no denying your factual account but it is still relatively isolated crime by organizations or gangs. 

It is still not, as of April 30th, 74 homicides in the City of Baltimore, one or two at a time for "random" reasons (arguments, dope deals, jealous boy friends or spouses, or in one case mother killing her kid).

So, even with this despicable act described, Mexico in general still looks to be, for the average NOBer, a safer place to live, por lo general.


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> Things have changed . I was surprised when I was at a funeral Tuesday when several people living in Monterrey started to tell me how things have been changing in Mexico . Thieves now use special equipment to rip off the doors and break the walls of homes to rob them and kill anyone inside . They target 4x4 vehicles for theft and kill people much more than before .
> 
> Its not just the cartels , its organized and amateur thieves and killers . They also killed a married couple from the states who ran a Christian group after they robbed them .


I'd like to ask you for a few facts. When were the couple killed? Where did you get your facts regarding the breaking and entering and killing at the same time?

Historically there is little a country can do about amateur crooks but catch them and punish them. Stopping them before they commit a crime is very, very difficult.


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## conklinwh

Believe the missionary couple killed earlier this year as part of robbery. They were long time residents. Think read it on Borderland Beat.


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## mickisue1

I live in the suburbs of the Twin Cities. 

Bucolic, right?

Nope. The crime rate here is 3 times that of the average for the US. In 1995, when the city of Mpls had under 400,000 residents, there were 97 murders--a rate higher than New York's. 

The fact remains that there is nowhere on earth that one is 100% safe from crime or those intent on doing harm. I remember, not that long ago, a couple of women were raped and murdered in an isolated location on the Appalachian Trail. Their murderers had to travel difficult walking paths, a long way, just to reach them.

Moral of the story, to me, is that one chooses the dangers with which one is willing to live, and then lives one's life.


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## tepetapan

conklinwh said:


> Believe the missionary couple killed earlier this year as part of robbery. They were long time residents. Think read it on Borderland Beat.


....AND it was not in Veracruz state.


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## pappabee

tepetapan said:


> ....AND it was not in Veracruz state.


Nope, but so what. Veracruz has had it's share of problems. As has all of Mexico.

And as had most of the world. I guess Andorra is one of the few places that hasn't had much problem. That's because sheep don't cause problems. Or at least that's what I was told.

In truth other than the Moon crime is everywhere. The real good thing is that it's different in many different places. So as was said earlier, pick your crime and deal with it.


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## jasavak

pappabee said:


> I'd like to ask you for a few facts. When were the couple killed? Where did you get your facts regarding the breaking and entering and killing at the same time?
> 
> Historically there is little a country can do about amateur crooks but catch them and punish them. Stopping them before they commit a crime is very, very difficult.






The information came from Don Juventino . We spoke at his sons funeral last Thursday. Some of the stories are not published in the paper . Juventino is 73 years old and has lived in Monterrey his entire life . 

Things were much quieter a few years ago. Personally, I’m not really concerned about the drug trafficking cartels because I don’t see them as a threat to the ave
rage person. 

The big problem is the thugs are not punished and get released to commit more and more crimes. Also, the criminals often carry guns and realize that 98% of the people they rob do not have guns .


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> The information came from Don Juventino . We spoke at his sons funeral last Thursday. Some of the stories are not published in the paper . Juventino is 73 years old and has lived in Monterrey his entire life .
> 
> Things were much quieter a few years ago. Personally, I’m not really concerned about the drug trafficking cartels because I don’t see them as a threat to the ave
> rage person.
> 
> The big problem is the thugs are not punished and get released to commit more and more crimes. Also, the criminals often carry guns and realize that 98% of the people they rob do not have guns .


Most of the "thugs" that you talk about are the same street gangs that you have to deal with all over the states. I really wish I had your blinders when you say that the cartels are not a "threat to the average person". The cartels are a threat to EVERYONE. Mexico is in a war and as in all wars there are Innocent casualties. The little boy who was playing in front of his house in Monterrey and was shot as part of a drug drive by, etc, etc.

Come on now, you got your "FACTS" from one person in Monterrey and you accept them as true? I'm not saying that those statements are not true. But getting one side of ANY situation does not make it a fact. I have asked many times for people who purport statements to be facts to please show your source. A 73 year old who gives very generalized statements does not make it a fact. It could very well be so, but you should supply more sources.

There have been stories of people who say that they have been abducted by aliens, does that make it true. Now if ten or fifteen people have the same story, then maybe it is true. Either that or they were all at the same beer partry.


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## FHBOY

pappabee said:


> Most of the "thugs" that you talk about are the same street gangs that you have to deal with all over the states. I really wish I had your blinders when you say that the cartels are not a "threat to the average person". The cartels are a threat to EVERYONE. Mexico is in a war and as in all wars there are Innocent casualties. The little boy who was playing in front of his house in Monterrey and was shot as part of a drug drive by, etc, etc.
> 
> Come on now, you got your "FACTS" from one person in Monterrey and you accept them as true? I'm not saying that those statements are not true. But getting one side of ANY situation does not make it a fact. I have asked many times for people who purport statements to be facts to please show your source. A 73 year old who gives very generalized statements does not make it a fact. It could very well be so, but you should supply more sources.
> 
> There have been stories of people who say that they have been abducted by aliens, does that make it true. Now if ten or fifteen people have the same story, then maybe it is true. Either that or they were all at the same beer partry.


FYI - see new thread - USAToday: Expatriates.


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## tepetapan

It is always the same story here in Mexico. The mother weeping, "My niño was a good boy, he never did anything to deserve being killed!" All the while knowning he (or she) was known to be out all night,no job, bringing home goods and money that can not be honestly accounted for, numerous cell phones and calls at all times, etc.. 
Don´t get me wrong, it happens everywhere. But in the news here in Mexico it is a event showing a weeping mother or wife. Are they all guilty of doing bad deeds? No, of course not. But odds are 98% are dead or in jail because they made the wrong choice in life and everyone in their family knew this was fact.
I do not feel sorry for them one bit. Live hard, die young. So sad, too bad.


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## jasavak

pappabee said:


> Most of the "thugs" that you talk about are the same street gangs that you have to deal with all over the states. I really wish I had your blinders when you say that the cartels are not a "threat to the average person". The cartels are a threat to EVERYONE. Mexico is in a war and as in all wars there are Innocent casualties. The little boy who was playing in front of his house in Monterrey and was shot as part of a drug drive by, etc, etc.
> 
> Come on now, you got your "FACTS" from one person in Monterrey and you accept them as true? I'm not saying that those statements are not true. But getting one side of ANY situation does not make it a fact. I have asked many times for people who purport statements to be facts to please show your source. A 73 year old who gives very generalized statements does not make it a fact. It could very well be so, but you should supply more sources.
> 
> There have been stories of people who say that they have been abducted by aliens, does that make it true. Now if ten or fifteen people have the same story, then maybe it is true. Either that or they were all at the same beer partry.



I understand that you want to protect the reputation of crime in Mexico , but things have become different . It used to be uninformed gringos making exaggerations about isolated drug related crimes , but now I hear the testimonies of many friends and relatives living in Mexico . They rip earrings from women waiting for buses , in most larger cities they now carjack in broad daylight , home invasions are now common , they murdered and tortured my Compadres friend , they smashed another friends mini market and stole all the inventory and 12,000 pesos he had stashed inside , they stole the copper tubing from the family home , they even steal copper tubing as small as 10 grams and watch the 600 liters drain from the tinacos . 

I'm not saying crime is unbearable and Mexico is "dangerous" , it's just much worse ever before.


----------



## jasavak

A story with a twist :


While driving in the Zeta territory , my friend's father had his pickup carjacked by two young thugs claiming to be part of the Zetas gang . Later , the older gentleman was walking the highway miles from the next town , when an SUV stopped and asked him why he was walking . He replied : " The Zetas stole my pickup " 

They laughed " Zetas " ? Nosotros somos las Zetas . They explained to him that the Zetas do not jack cars in this area . They proceeded to town and there was his pickup with the two thugs sitting on the ground next to it . Is this your pickup ? Are these the thugs ? 

They gave him his pickup back and told him Zetas don't steal .


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> I understand that you want to protect the reputation of crime in Mexico , but things have become different . It used to be uninformed gringos making exaggerations about isolated drug related crimes , but now I hear the testimonies of many friends and relatives living in Mexico . They rip earrings from women waiting for buses , in most larger cities they now carjack in broad daylight , home invasions are now common , they murdered and tortured my Compadres friend , they smashed another friends mini market and stole all the inventory and 12,000 pesos he had stashed inside , they stole the copper tubing from the family home , they even steal copper tubing as small as 10 grams and watch the 600 liters drain from the tinacos .
> 
> I'm not saying crime is unbearable and Mexico is "dangerous" , it's just much worse ever before.


First of all why would I want to "protect the reputation of crime in Mexico"?? I have no axe to grind either way. What irks me is when people make exaggerated statements that are supposed to be facts and they have nothing but hearsay to back them up. Or in your case it seems that you have taken crimes from as much as a year ago and banded them together as if they happened within the past few months. That is not correct. 

We all know that crime has increased over the past few years but it has increased all over the world. So by singling out Mexico you are doing those of us who live here a disservice. You don't live in Mexico and you get your information from many sources none of them are first hand.

Please continue to post your comments but add your sources and the dates. I can tell you about the kid who was killed by a cop in Austin two years ago and the cop was given a slap on the wrist. It has very little import today. And we are talking about now not the distant past.


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## jasavak

Most of the information is first hand. Crime is not increasing “everywhere “in the world. However, it is increasing in Mexico and most of the crimes I mentioned took place this year. 

I guess I get more information because I speak the language and have family in Mexico.
Also, our property is not located in a isolated expat enclave.


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## tepetapan

jasavak said:


> I...., but now I hear the testimonies of many friends and relatives living in Mexico . They rip earrings from women waiting for buses , in most larger cities they now carjack in broad daylight , home invasions are now common , they murdered and tortured my Compadres friend , they smashed another friends mini market and stole all the inventory and 12,000 pesos he had stashed inside , they stole the copper tubing from the family home , they even steal copper tubing as small as 10 grams and watch the 600 liters drain from the tinacos .
> 
> I'm not saying crime is unbearable and Mexico is "dangerous" , it's just much worse ever before.


 That all sounds like Chicago except the media does not report it much since it is an everyday happening.
p.s. like a thief cares about 600 liters of water draining out, :confused2:


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## jasavak

tepetapan said:


> That all sounds like Chicago except the media does not report it much since it is an everyday happening.
> p.s. like a thief cares about 600 liters of water draining out, :confused2:



Two weeks ago , the thief stole a tiny piece of pipe worth a few cents , but my Sister in law lost her 600 liters that was worth more than that and had no water . It's just an irony .


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## mickisue1

pappabee said:


> First of all why would I want to "protect the reputation of crime in Mexico"?? I have no axe to grind either way. What irks me is when people make exaggerated statements that are supposed to be facts and they have nothing but hearsay to back them up. Or in your case it seems that you have taken crimes from as much as a year ago and banded them together as if they happened within the past few months. That is not correct.
> 
> We all know that crime has increased over the past few years but it has increased all over the world. So by singling out Mexico you are doing those of us who live here a disservice. You don't live in Mexico and you get your information from many sources none of them are first hand.
> 
> Please continue to post your comments but add your sources and the dates. I can tell you about the kid who was killed by a cop in Austin two years ago and the cop was given a slap on the wrist. It has very little import today. And we are talking about now not the distant past.


I recall reading safety tips for women traveling in MX, over a decade ago: Don't wear conspicuously expensive earrings, they'll be ripped from your ears. Rent a small, inconspicuous car. 

There was a distributor with my company who was very high in our marketing plan who was kidnapped and murdered.

But that was 10 years ago. 

Would you like to hear about the four year old who was holding his mom's hand, on his birthday as she was about to put him in the family car, who was picked up and thrown across the street by an unlicensed driver, doing wheelies on a motorcycle?

That happened last Saturday, in a quiet residential district in St. Paul. He's in a coma. His little cousin, born on the same day, who was going to have a joint birthday party with him, told the police when they arrived that her cousin was dead.

Can MX be dangerous? Yes. Can it be shockingly, unexpectedly dangerous? Yes.

As can it be, anywhere. 

Whether the current violence is a sign of worse to come, or the dying gasps of an under culture ruled by drug lords remains to be seen, doesn't it?


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> Most of the information is first hand. Crime is not increasing “everywhere “in the world. However, it is increasing in Mexico and most of the crimes I mentioned took place this year.
> 
> I guess I get more information because I speak the language and have family in Mexico.
> Also, our property is not located in a isolated expat enclave.


Crime is not increasing "everywhere" in Mexico either, or at least it's not increasing in my neighborhood in Mexico City, which is certainly not an expat enclave. I speak Spanish too, and yet I haven't been privy to the horrible tales of crime you recount. 

By the way, how much time do you actually spend in Mexico every year? You list your home as Southlake, Texas. If you lived here, I might give your posts a bit more credence. Since you get your information from your family in Mexico, it would be useful to let us know what part of Mexico they live in, since they can't know what's happening in every nook and cranny of the country.


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## joaquinx

mickisue1 said:


> Can MX be dangerous? Yes. Can it be shockingly, unexpectedly dangerous? Yes.
> 
> As can it be, anywhere.
> 
> Whether the current violence is a sign of worse to come, or the dying gasps of an under culture ruled by drug lords remains to be seen, doesn't it?


Tell me mickisue, do you write telenovelas? If not, you should.


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## mickisue1

joaquinx said:


> Tell me mickisue, do you write telenovelas? If not, you should.


I'm not sure whether to LOL or to bow graciously.


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> Crime is not increasing "everywhere" in Mexico either, or at least it's not increasing in my neighborhood in Mexico City, which is certainly not an expat enclave. I speak Spanish too, and yet I haven't been privy to the horrible tales of crime you recount.
> 
> By the way, how much time do you actually spend in Mexico every year? You list your home as Southlake, Texas. If you lived here, I might give your posts a bit more credence. Since you get your information from your family in Mexico, it would be useful to let us know what part of Mexico they live in, since they can't know what's happening in every nook and cranny of the country.



I didn’t quote you , or write crime was increasing “everywhere “ in Mexico .


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> I didn’t quote you , or write crime was increasing “everywhere “ in Mexico .


You were asked a very simple question. "How much time do you spend in Mexico each year?" You have failed to answer it. Why?

Also you stated that most of your facts are based on "first hand information". First hand information means that you personally saw what happened. You are either a very unfortunate person to be in so many places where crime happens or you are mistaken in what you said. I would also like to know which?

This site is a very important source of information for a lot of people, that is one reason why we try very hard to be accurate in what we say. Please abide with that request.


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> I didn’t quote you , or write crime was increasing “everywhere “ in Mexico .


But it was implied, I think. Or is it only increasing in the places where your Mexican relatives live?


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## kazslo

jasavak said:


> I guess I get more information because I speak the language and have family in Mexico.
> Also, our property is not located in a isolated expat enclave.


If you change the word "information" to "gossip", your posts will make a lot more sense to people. Just because someone speaks spanish or is Mexican doesn't mean they don't fib/exagerrate a bit. When you experience living in any one of the thousands of normal communities in Mexico, you'll understand why most of us find your perception of this country to be absurd.


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## jasavak

*First hand information*



Isla Verde said:


> But it was implied, I think. Or is it only increasing in the places where your Mexican relatives live?



First Hand information from crime this year :

My good friend Juan: I talked to him the morning after his store was broken in . The crooks smashed a hole in the wall to climb in .

Other thieves stole the copper from his rental. The mechanics son from across the street admitted to it when they caught him.

My sister in law : She (not a newspaper) told me the thieves stole a 3 inch piece of copper and she lost her water until they replaced it.

My Concuño Antonio : They stole the brass off his taco cart , other thieves stole his chairs that he rents for parties .

Mother in law – Thieves jumped over the roof and stole her birds in their cages .
Other thieves stole the copper gas line from the front of the house . 

The 2006 VW Lupo I gave to my wife’s family had the mirrors stolen.
Of course there is other gossip of other crimes including the Cartel drug trafficking , murders and kidnappings . 

Pick pockets and rare muggings use to be the problem, but now petty theft , burglaries , car jackings and home invasion are more common in many parts of central Mexico . 
Expats living in tourist towns and other upscale areas or enclaves have limited exposure to these problems . 

The taxi drivers , policeman , friends , neighbors , relatives , and merchants in the following areas have told me crime is now much higher than it was just 10 years ago:

Aguascalientes , San Luis Potosi , Leon , Lagos de Moreno , Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo .

I suppose it’s possible that everyone is lying and exaggerating , but the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming .


----------



## jasavak

kazslo said:


> If you change the word "information" to "gossip", your posts will make a lot more sense to people. Just because someone speaks spanish or is Mexican doesn't mean they don't fib/exagerrate a bit. When you experience living in any one of the thousands of normal communities in Mexico, you'll understand why most of us find your perception of this country to be absurd.


If you need any information on what Mexico is like outside the enclaves or are stumped on the vocabulary , feel free to ask , I'd be glad to help you .


----------



## joaquinx

jasavak said:


> If you need any information on what Mexico is like outside the enclaves or are stumped on the vocabulary , feel free to ask , I'd be glad to help you .


Your personal data states you live in Southlake, Texas. So is this happening in Texas or have you moved?

I've parked my car on the street for over 12 years and nothing was damaged or stolen. My neighbor even knocked on my door when I left the headlights on.


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## jasavak

joaquinx said:


> Your personal data states you live in Southlake, Texas. So is this happening in Texas or have you moved?
> 
> I've parked my car on the street for over 12 years and nothing was damaged or stolen. My neighbor even knocked on my door when I left the headlights on.



It's a 2006 VW Lupo . They aren't available in the U.S.


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## joaquinx

jasavak said:


> It's a 2006 VW Lupo . They aren't available in the U.S.


So? I have a 2009 Crossfox and it's not available in the US either. Did you respond to me or got confused and responded in error?


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## kazslo

jasavak said:


> If you need any information on what Mexico is like outside the enclaves or are stumped on the vocabulary , feel free to ask , I'd be glad to help you .


I'm not stumped on the vocabulary, the BS filter in my brain automatically fixes the mistakes as I read. What I'm stumped about is what's your point by stating all of these crime stories? Whenever these types of posts crop up, I try to ask: What emotions do you want the reader to feel? What action do you want the reader to take? My own theories are that you are trying to put us down and make us feel like we're a bunch of ignorant fools, enclosed in our own little bubble worlds disconnected from the rest of mankind; or, you are trying to scare people off.

I could take any news story and say it happened to my good friend Delfino. Or my aunt's uncle. Adding names doesn't add validity. Or I could talk about the shootout between the cartel and the military a block from my house that took place this week (real story). But I don't, because there would be no message I would want the reader to take from such stories. Everyone knows the amount of crime they are exposed to in their daily doings, and each can assess their comfortability with that amount.


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## Isla Verde

I ask myself this question: Why is our poster who lives in Southlake, Texas, so concerned about the increase in crime in certain areas and neighborhoods of Mexico? I'm not naive and know that bad things happen to good people all the time, but if I focus too much on the bad stuff, all the joy goes out of my life.


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> It's a 2006 VW Lupo . They aren't available in the U.S.


You know that this entire line is becoming totally ludicrous. You have listed a lot of crimes that happened in some cities (what crime in what city you didn't bother to say), you also didn't bother to say over what period of time these happened, you also seem to think that "first hand" means something that was told to you by someone (maybe the person involved, maybe not). By definition First Hand says you were there. Not according to your posts. 
Experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your posts make no sense except to further your stilted views. Crime is all around, we all know that. Stealing copper has been a common occurrence whereever poor people live. Nothing new, nothing to write home about. I would hate to read you the daily crime report for the city of Dallas, Texas. 

You live in Southlake Texas so's how's the crime coming from Fort Worth or Arlington? 

My problem is that you say nothing new but you package it like it is. You still haven't answered the question "when and for how long have you been in Mexico".

Please answer the questions and include the information that the rest of us need to really see what you are talking about. If not, then post nothing (and that would be a shame). PLEASE prove your points with facts.


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## Detailman

pappabee said:


> You know that this entire line is becoming totally ludicrous. You have listed a lot of crimes that happened in some cities (witch crime in witch city you didn't bother to say), you also didn't bother to say over what period of time these happened, you also seem to think that "first hand" means something that was told to you by someone (maybe the person involved, maybe not). By definition First Hand says you were there. Not according to your posts.
> Experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Your posts make no sense except to further your stilted views. Crime is all around, we all know that. Stealing copper has been a common occurrence whereever poor people live. Nothing new, nothing to write home about. I would hate to read you the daily crime report for the city of Dallas, Texas.
> 
> You live in Southlake Texas so's how's the crime coming from Fort Worth or Arlington?
> 
> My problem is that you say nothing new but you package it like it is. You still haven't answered the question "when and for how long have you been in Mexico".
> 
> Please answer the questions and include the information that the rest of us need to really see what you are talking about. If not, then post nothing (and that would be a shame). PLEASE prove your points with facts.


 
I live in the Greater Vancouver Regional District. It is not what you would call a poor area. Cost of housing is the highest in Canada. And yet there isn't a week that goes by that someone isn't steeling copper wire. Sometimes they use heavier equipment or tools so that 1,000's of people are without power until the lines can be restored. All countries and cities have people with low moral codes that would rather exhert themselves in crime than honest work.


A restaurant owner (and it would seem one of his emloyees) were found shot to death in the store over the weekend close by Metrotown which is the largest shopping Centre in BC. (Exact location was Kingsway and Royal Oak.) Police say no gang involvement and neither party was known to police. No reason found yet for the killings.


Point: As Pappabee says - "Nothing new, nothing to write home about." 

We are living in a changing world. Crime is everywhere but most countries and most places have a higher crime and violence rate than many cities in Mexico. There have been numerous well documented articles outlining this. You can google to do your own research.

Many of those in the USA (and other coutries) that point their fingers at expats in Mexico and provide dire warnings should really be pointing the fingers at themselves for living in much more dangerous cities in their home countries.

As a sideline, if anyone knows a place where none of these things are happening could you please provide me with the location. I would certainly like to do further research on it. To date Lakeside is pretty high up the list by comparison with world standards but if someone has found the real "utopia" let us all know. :clap2:


----------



## jasavak

*Ok , I'll take the bait*



Detailman said:


> I live in the Greater Vancouver Regional District. It is not what you would call a poor area. Cost of housing is the highest in Canada. And yet there isn't a week that goes by that someone isn't steeling copper wire. Sometimes they use heavier equipment or tools so that 1,000's of people are without power until the lines can be restored. All countries and cities have people with low moral codes that would rather exhert themselves in crime than honest work.
> 
> 
> A restaurant owner (and it would seem one of his emloyees) were found shot to death in the store over the weekend close by Metrotown which is the largest shopping Centre in BC. (Exact location was Kingsway and Royal Oak.) Police say no gang involvement and neither party was known to police. No reason found yet for the killings.
> 
> 
> Point: As Pappabee says - "Nothing new, nothing to write home about."
> 
> We are living in a changing world. Crime is everywhere but most countries and most places have a higher crime and violence rate than many cities in Mexico. There have been numerous well documented articles outlining this. You can google to do your own research.
> 
> Many of those in the USA (and other coutries) that point their fingers at expats in Mexico and provide dire warnings should really be pointing the fingers at themselves for living in much more dangerous cities in their home countries.
> 
> As a sideline, if anyone knows a place where none of these things are happening could you please provide me with the location. I would certainly like to do further research on it. To date Lakeside is pretty high up the list by comparison with world standards but if someone has found the real "utopia" let us all know. :clap2:



“ steeling copper wire “ I like the pun . 

You’re assuming my beliefs are:

1. High price of housing = Low crime . Defiantly not my belief
2. I think Mexico is more dangerous than the U.S. . Not my belief.
I simply stated crime is getting worse and I listed 5 “ First Hand “ examples .
The other assumption that if someone spends 250- 350 days a year in Mexico is going to have more information than someone who spends a 100 days has no validity . I’ve traveled on trains planes and automobiles to nearly every state of the republic. I was married in an ancient Catholic Church in Jalisco in 1988 when the inflation rate was over 100%.

I drove the old roads many times over the years before they constructed the tolls. I know Mexico’s history, vocabulary and customs. I can also identify different accents and vocabulary from the Argentinians, Spaniards, Cubans and Puerto Ricans . (Hollywood often puts actors with strong Puerto Rican accents to play Mexicans.) 
Expats on this forum think paying 4,000 pesos for a small apartment is no big deal and represents a typical Mexican rent . 

In actuality a typical rent for a 2 bed, 1 bath in a major city is about 1200 pesos (1/3 of that) A typical factory worker's entire salary is around 4000 pesos .


On a more positive note , I was in Leon last month when their soccer team finally rose to first division after a long ten year drought . The whole city was a party . Some people say it was because the Pope had just recently visited Leon . 

I'm here to help if you need help with Mexico's music , history , political or economic issues and vocabulary .


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> I ask myself this question: Why is our poster who lives in Southlake, Texas, so concerned about the increase in crime in certain areas and neighborhoods of Mexico? I'm not naive and know that bad things happen to good people all the time, but if I focus too much on the bad stuff, all the joy goes out of my life.



I'm focused on Mexico because I own property there and am considering relocating . I also have many friends and in laws there . 
Ironically it's my wife who was born in Mexico and came to the U.S. when she was 25 that doesn't want to go back . 

. Hey Isla , do they have good Cebadina in the D.F ? Also , do they still cook with huizaches ?


----------



## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> I'm focused on Mexico because I own property there and am considering relocating . I also have many friends and in laws there .
> Ironically it's my wife who was born in Mexico and came to the U.S. when she was 25 that doesn't want to go back .
> 
> . Hey Isla , do they have good Cebadina in the D.F ? Also , do they still cook with huizaches ?


How nice that you own property in Mexico. I have to be content with the supposedly over-priced apartment I rent in Mexico City. FYI, though I don't live in an exclusive expat haven, I do live in a "nice" area of the city and $4000 is at the lower end of the rent prices for this neighborhood. Maybe your wife doesn't want to come back to Mexico because she enjoys the life she has made for herself in the US.

I've never tasted Cebadina and have no idea what huizaches are. Maybe you can enlighten me.


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## mickisue1

Javasak, you are much more fun to read when you remove the hand from your own shoulder, and stop patting it for a moment or two.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am aware of the crime in MX, and in many other countries, as well.

I also know where in the Twin Cities not to hang out after dark, especially not after dark on hot summer nights, when the heat and humidity make everyone just that little bit more crabby.

There have been actual home invasions in my area, even in the country. To me, a home invasion isn't a burglar grabbing what he can, because he believes the owners are not home. To me, it's someone or someones entering a home with the specific goal of doing harm to the inhabitants. Sadly, that is more common in the US than in MX, it appears.

Everyday people, with no association with organized crime of any type, are terrorized, tortured and killed on a regular basis here.

It's interesting to me that your MX inlaws are telling you all the bad stuff.

My son and daughter in law were here last week, before leaving for China. Her relatives have been throwing up their arms in fear about the terrible crime wave in MX, too.

Just like you, they live in TX.


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## Isla Verde

From a recent post by jasavak:

In actuality a typical rent for a 2 bed, 1 bath in a major city is about 1200 pesos (1/3 of that) A typical factory worker's entire salary is around 4000 pesos.

In a major city in what kind of neighborhood can you find a decent 2 bedroom, 1 bath apartment? I would like to know the source of this rather low figure of 1200 pesos. Yes, I'm aware of how shamefully low the salaries are for certain types of workers are in Mexico, but what has that to do with the people who post here regularly? What exactly is your point?


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## Longford

jasavak said:


> In actuality a typical rent for a 2 bed, 1 bath in a major city is about 1200 pesos (1/3 of that) A typical factory worker's entire salary is around 4000 pesos


MX$1,200 is a pretty darn low rent in a "major" city. then again, each of us might be defining "major" differently. Oh, there are apartments renting for that, I've no doubt (and I know), but I'll suggest that relatively few expats would have knowledge of where to find them or if they found them would be interested in what they would get (or where) for that money. I've seen some expats trying to live at the level of a poor Mexican. And it wasn't a pleasurable sight or experience ... for them or for me as their witness. I know that some people do it, though.


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## Detailman

jasavak said:


> “ steeling copper wire “ I like the pun .


No pun intended. Didn't catch that as my wife was waiting at the door for a shopping trip. Didn't have a chance to check my spelling. shame on me. :tongue1:


----------



## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> How nice that you own property in Mexico. I have to be content with the supposedly over-priced apartment I rent in Mexico City. FYI, though I don't live in an exclusive expat haven, I do live in a "nice" area of the city and $4000 is at the lower end of the rent prices for this neighborhood. Maybe your wife doesn't want to come back to Mexico because she enjoys the life she has made for herself in the US.
> 
> I've never tasted Cebadina and have no idea what huizaches are. Maybe you can enlighten me.




My wife likes her Utopia lifestyle and is scared to drive in Mexico . Do they add abono for pulque in the D.F. ?


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> My wife likes her Utopia lifestyle and is scared to drive in Mexico . Do they add abono for pulque in the D.F. ?


Yes, I can understand that, though living in Utopia has never been my style. But perhaps that's why your wife moved to the States in the first place, to enjoy a style-of-life that wasn't possible for her in Mexico. 

I never was much of a drinker and now I mostly drink really good coffee. I think I tasted pulque once many years ago. I have no idea if it contained _abono_, which is fertilizer, isn't it?


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> Yes, I can understand that, though living in Utopia has never been my style. But perhaps that's why your wife moved to the States in the first place, to enjoy a style-of-life that wasn't possible for her in Mexico.
> 
> I never was much of a drinker and now I mostly drink really good coffee. I think I tasted pulque once many years ago. I have no idea if it contained _abono_, which is fertilizer, isn't it?



No , not really . We were very poor in California . The Utopia affect didn't occur until we moved to Texas 7 years ago .


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> No , not really . We were very poor in California . The Utopia affect didn't occur until we moved to Texas 7 years ago .


Maybe that's why she's loath to give it up after only 7 years of living in the lap of luxury. Surely if you move to Mexico, you'll be able to provide a good quality of life for your wife and yourself and wouldn't be living in an apartment that rents for only $1200 a month  .


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## joaquinx

Longford said:


> MX$1,200 is a pretty darn low rent in a "major" city. then again, each of us might be defining "major" differently. Oh, there are apartments renting for that, I've no doubt (and I know), but I'll suggest that relatively few expats would have knowledge of where to find them or if they found them would be interested in what they would get (or where) for that money. I've seen some expats trying to live at the level of a poor Mexican. And it wasn't a pleasurable sight or experience ... for them or for me as their witness. I know that some people do it, though.


Whoa, I pay 1,100 pesos for a two room apartment (the rent was raised this month from 1,000 pesos). There are not that many in the 1,000 to 1,500 price range, but I searched for six months until I found this place. I guess that I'm lucky. I have two great neighbors in the other apartments and a wonderful landlord. I'm almost part of the family, being invited to weddings, baptisms, birthday parties, etc. It is located in a safe neighborhood with a supermarket two blocks away, my doctor's office just down the street. Bus service a block away. Health clinic across the street. There is a large shared patio in front of all the apartments with macadamia and guayaba trees, a few chickens and a rabbit or two.

I've been living here for over 10 years and never had any problems with any of the neighbors up and down the street. What a person needs to do to find low cost housing is to be patient, willing to look for a long time, and a knowledge of the city. There isn't a ****** within 5km.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Whoa, I pay 1,100 pesos for a two room apartment (the rent was raised this month from 1,000 pesos). There are not that many in the 1,000 to 1,500 price range, but I searched for six months until I found this place. I guess that I'm lucky. I have two great neighbors in the other apartments and a wonderful landlord. I'm almost part of the family, being invited to weddings, baptisms, birthday parties, etc. It is located in a safe neighborhood with a supermarket two blocks away, my doctor's office just down the street. Bus service a block away. Health clinic across the street. There is a large shared patio in front of all the apartments with macadamia and guayaba trees, a few chickens and a rabbit or two.
> 
> I've been living here for over 10 years and never had any problems with any of the neighbors up and down the street. What a person needs to do to find low cost housing is to be patient, willing to look for a long time, and a knowledge of the city. There isn't a ****** within 5km.


Sounds wonderful! Is that a two-room apartment or a two-bedroom apartment? How far are you from the center of Jalapa?


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> Sounds wonderful! Is that a two-room apartment or a two-bedroom apartment? How far are you from the center of Jalapa?


Two rooms. Recamara and a sala/comedor. They are both 12ft x 12ft rooms. I really don't need a second bedroom. I am guessing that I'm at least 2 km from el centro. The bus comes every 20 minutes and takes about 15 to 20 minutes to get to el centro. Taxi is 20 pesos. Every Tuesday, there is a mercado a block away.

To be honest, I've wanted to move for a few years, but the dramatic increase in rent puts me off. I moved to this place when I was teaching English for a few pesos an hour and getting a small VA benefit check and way before I started to receive SS.


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## jasavak

*4000 pesos*



Isla Verde said:


> Maybe that's why she's loath to give it up after only 7 years of living in the lap of luxury. Surely if you move to Mexico, you'll be able to provide a good quality of life for your wife and yourself and wouldn't be living in an apartment that rents for only $1200 a month  .



Actually , I would rent a home for around 4000 pesos . We saw a cute little house in a quiet neighborhood last month for 1 million pesos . the home was on a small lot with about 1300 ft. of construction in a Mexican subdivision . 

The monthly association fee of 200 pesos includes 24 hour gated security , a huge pool and the landscaping of the greenbelt . The property tax is only $70 per year . We pay $12,000 a year in the Utopia. 

This home would rent for 3500-4500 pesos . Of course I could rent a house twice that size in many other areas of the city for the same price , but I would rather have a smaller home in a good area rather than a large one that I have to clean up the graffiti and deal with the imaginary crime .


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Two rooms. Recamara and a sala/comedor. They are both 12ft x 12ft rooms. I really don't need a second bedroom. I am guessing that I'm at least 2 km from el centro. The bus comes every 20 minutes and takes about 15 to 20 minutes to get to el centro. Taxi is 20 pesos. Every Tuesday, there is a mercado a block away.
> 
> To be honest, I've wanted to move for a few years, but the dramatic increase in rent puts me off. I moved to this place when I was teaching English for a few pesos an hour and getting a small VA benefit check and way before I started to receive SS.


Of course, living in Jalapa, you don't have the distances you need to contend with in Mexico City if you don't live in a fairly central neighborhood. My apartment is very small, maybe something like yours, and is far from "fancy", but I love my neighborhood, which is safe and convenient - some days I can walk everywhere I need to go, and when I want to go downtown or to Chapultepec Park, I hop on a bus and am there in under a half hour.

I understand all about living on an English teacher's generally modest salary, but at a few pesos an hour, it sounds like the school was definitely taking advantage of you! I hope you've moved on to better things, and, of course, getting that SS check every month is wonderful. That's why I only need to teach a few hours a week to have a good life here.


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## jasavak

Longford said:


> MX$1,200 is a pretty darn low rent in a "major" city. then again, each of us might be defining "major" differently. Oh, there are apartments renting for that, I've no doubt (and I know), but I'll suggest that relatively few expats would have knowledge of where to find them or if they found them would be interested in what they would get (or where) for that money. I've seen some expats trying to live at the level of a poor Mexican. And it wasn't a pleasurable sight or experience ... for them or for me as their witness. I know that some people do it, though.




The typical rent of a small 2 bedroom , 1 bath Infonavit style in Leon , GTO is around 1000-1500 pesos . Two of my sister in laws rent their houses out . One for 1,000 and the other for 1,300 . 

Leon is a major industrial city with low unemployment . Some of my friends only pay 800 pesos . A neighbor pays 300 pesos for an ugly 1 bedroom that needs to be condemned . Things are very different in Mexico .

Land is extremely expensive anywhere near a city . An acre of land in a decent location can easily fetch more than $1 Million Dollars. So how can the people afford it ? 
The lots are divided into tiny fractions that now average around 90 square meters (968 square feet !) . An acre can contain dozens of lots that form a fraccionamiento of a colony . 
A typical 968 lot will have between 800-968 feet of construction in a single story . If the home is a 2 story , it can be 1600-1900 sf.


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## Guest

I've been following this thread and will throw in my two pesos, even though I live in the Switzerland of Mexico. 

jasavak cited his "first hand" accounts from these cities: Aguascalientes , San Luis Potosi , Leon , Lagos de Moreno , Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo .

OK jassavak, so your point of view is slanted whether it is first hand or gossip. Right now, most of these cities/areas are considered "caliente" by MY Mexican friends compared to life here in Switzerland. (Other posters, please don't get bent out of shape if you currently live in one of these ciities and want to defend or deny this.) Your point of view depends on whether it is daytime or nighttime, and what areas you are looking at. True, there are nice areas in all of them, relatively unaffected by the bad guys in the area. 

People posting on this forum probably aren't going to recognize the fact that your rent figure of $1200 probably is close to the truth. No one claims this housing is decent compared to our standards. 

Few people here would know that a 2 bedroom house of this type might have a "master bedroom" that measures 2 meters X 2.5 meters, and the other bedroom measures 1.5 meters X 2.5 meters. (sounds like some peoples' walk-in closets, doesn't it?). For another 500 pesos a month, you might get a third bedroom of 1.5 meters x 2.5 meters or more space in the sala.

The average wage paid for a formal job in MX is less than 6000 pesos per month (source INEGI for April 2012: the average wage paid for the entire country was 258 pesos per day). That figure includes ALL Mexicans working in formal employment, laborers and managers. Not sure if it also includes informal employees, which represents about 40% of the country's employees.

Tough problem when most employers won't hire anyone with a criminal record or lack of education. The bad guys don't require a job application, pay their troops a starting wage of at least 8000 pesos a month, plus meals and rapid promotion prospects due to personal initiative or attrition. One promotion and they suddenly get a vehicle and 12-20,000 pesos a month. Looking at goodies like that, the "applicants" don't seem to care about their career longevity prospects. To stay employed or alive, they need to show they're bringing in more than they're receiving, in whatever form they can come up with.


-


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## jasavak

GringoCArlos said:


> I've been following this thread and will throw in my two pesos, even though I live in the Switzerland of Mexico.
> 
> jasavak cited his "first hand" accounts from these cities: Aguascalientes , San Luis Potosi , Leon , Lagos de Moreno , Monterrey and Nuevo Laredo .
> 
> OK jassavak, so your point of view is slanted whether it is first hand or gossip. Right now, most of these cities/areas are considered "caliente" by MY Mexican friends compared to life here in Switzerland. (Other posters, please don't get bent out of shape if you currently live in one of these ciities and want to defend or deny this.) Your point of view depends on whether it is daytime or nighttime, and what areas you are looking at. True, there are nice areas in all of them, relatively unaffected by the bad guys in the area.
> 
> People posting on this forum probably aren't going to recognize the fact that your rent figure of $1200 probably is close to the truth. No one claims this housing is decent compared to our standards.
> 
> Few people here would know that a 2 bedroom house of this type might have a "master bedroom" that measures 2 meters X 2.5 meters, and the other bedroom measures 1.5 meters X 2.5 meters. (sounds like some peoples' walk-in closets, doesn't it?). For another 500 pesos a month, you might get a third bedroom of 1.5 meters x 2.5 meters or more space in the sala.
> 
> The average wage paid for a formal job in MX is less than 6000 pesos per month (source INEGI for April 2012: the average wage paid for the entire country was 258 pesos per day). That figure includes ALL Mexicans working in formal employment, laborers and managers. Not sure if it also includes informal employees, which represents about 40% of the country's employees.
> 
> Tough problem when most employers won't hire anyone with a criminal record or lack of education. The bad guys don't require a job application, pay their troops a starting wage of at least 8000 pesos a month, plus meals and rapid promotion prospects due to personal initiative or attrition. One promotion and they suddenly get a vehicle and 12-20,000 pesos a month. Looking at goodies like that, the "applicants" don't seem to care about their career longevity prospects. To stay employed or alive, they need to show they're bringing in more than they're receiving, in whatever form they can come up with.
> 
> 
> -




Carlos , I’ve read some of your previous posts and understand much of your position on Mexico. 
Although you currently live in Switzerland , I realize that a person that spends 300 days a year in Mexico does not automatically know more than a person than spends 100 days a year. 
I didn't want to toot my horn or explain the details of my position, however folks assumed I didn’t have any knowledge of Mexico because I don’t live there year round . 
I know people that lived in Spain and Mexico for years and don't speak a word of Spanish or even know what a guizache is . 
I've also worked with Mexicans who resided in the states for 20 years and spoke no English. On the other hand, I know Mexicans that have been here for less than two years and already speak decent English . 

Of course my point of view is slanted . Everyone's point of view is. 
In fact, I focused on overall general crime and intentionally omitted the " tierra caliente " areas of Culiacan , , Nueva Italia , Matamoros , Juarez , Playa Azul and others that have cartel problems.

My slanted view on wages :

I know dozens of people who earn between 900-1300 pesos per week . I have a friend who drives for Primera Plus who earns around 2,000 pesos per week , but he only sees his family a few days per month . I have one friend who works in Salamanca , GTO for the government who earns around 17,000 pesos per month . 
The school teachers earn around 10,000 -14,000 pesos per month . 
Oh , the realtor that showed us the cute little house happens to live in the same colonia . Most of the people in the subdivision were working professionals and small business owners. 
Disclaimer: All gossip is first hand unless noted otherwise. All figures are estimates and your experience may vary.


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## Isla Verde

From jasavak's latest post: 
"I know people that lived in Spain and Mexico for years and don't speak a word of Spanish or even know what a guizache is."

Let's see, I have lived in Mexico for several years, not counting many other lengthy periods of residence and travel in the República since 1966, speak fluent Spanish, and have many Mexican friends. I have also spent considerable amounts of time over the years in Spain and have traveled in Ecuador and Chile. Ooops, forgot to mention my MA in Spanish Language and Literature and another MA in Latin American Studies. But with all of these advantages, I have no idea what "guizache" means. Please enlighten me. I´m always happy to learn new words .

P.S. I couldn't find "guizache" in any dictionary, and then I thought to spell it "huizache". Here's what the Academia Mexicana de la Lengua dictionary has to say about this mysterious word:

"huisache o huizache. (Del náhuatl huixachi, literalmente = '(árbol) muy espinoso', de huitzli 'espina, púa' + ixachi 'mucho'.) m. Cierto árbol muy espinoso (Acacia farmesiana)" 

Is this the word you had in mind? I guess I wasn't familiar with it because I don't know much about thorny trees native to Mexico.


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## mickisue1

You still either don't understand, or are trying to claim knowledge that you don't have.

FIRST HAND knowledge is of the person to whom the information belongs.

First hand information about crime is either the perpetrator, the victim, or a person who actually witnessed the crime.

First hand information about income, etc, is of the person who earns it.


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## Guest

jasavak, I live in Mexico about 360 days a year on average. MX is now my home. My state, for the most part, is a neutral zone, much like Switzerland. Sorry for any confusion caused by writing "the Switzerland of Mexico". I don't know much, and have no horn to toot. I just live and observe here, far away from gringos and gringolandia.

Many higher up bad guys park their families in this state with the mutual understanding that no other bad guys will bother their families, no matter what. They probably use different names, or the authorities haven't caught on or maybe turn a blind eye to keep the peace here.

I think the word you're searching for is "*gavacho (or gabacho)*" as used by some Mexicans today in referring to some gringos in MX, or to some Mexicans from the US and not referring to Frenchmen as used in the past. I am no gavacho, nor some clueless, eyes-wide-open ****** in Mexico. 

Many of my Mexican friends have been my maestros in life here. I have stopped using the coarse language sometimes used in the streets. I have gotten used to the horrible writing and spelling skills of many Mexican people in Spanish. (K horible wey! - *and NO, this is NOT directed at you jasavak*). Unfortunately, my favorite maestra hasn't yet gotten me to use flowers all of the time when communicating.


-


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## FHBOY

Kept out of this because I am not yet living in Mexico but there seems to be some things worth commenting on:

1. Crime is the thread - and it is gotten way off - Jasa likes to be a reporter with a slant. OK that's his thing. His reports are just that - reports, they have no intent, no evil cabal, and like any other report, you take the source, the slant and the supposed veracity and then accept or reject it. Jasa, like all of us, has no vested interest with what you or I do with his posts, so it you find them less than credible, ignore them. Criticize the report, not the reporter. I find too many unverifiable "facts" in his posts and tend to ignore them. Oh and stealing copper - we in Baltimore are used to that - so it is NBD.

2. "There is no virtue in poverty or living a life of poverty" - This thread has taken a turn that says that if we, as expats, wish to duplicate our living standards as closely as possible in Mexico, somehow we are less "authentic" expats, not part of "living Mexican". The hurling of ****** bubble, and the like as epithets is an insult. I expounded at great length and got castigated for it on "living Mexican" (see the thread), and I accept that. For me, I do not want to live in 288 square feet, in two rooms, and have the donkey outside my door to show that I am living a Mexican life. I am moving to Ajijic to have a life I like, that I want to live. I did not work my entire life to live poor. I am not rich, I have rented a house in a nice neighborhood, with nice accommodations because I find no virtue in a two room apartment. Those here who find virtue in that existence, live and be well, that is your choice, but your superior attitudes expressed (maybe wrongly) in your posts is not right. Saying this, I do object to Palm Beach Gringos I have seen, and yes it is judgmental on my part - but that is still a whole other topic.

3. I am tired of the pissing contest between about the Spanish language that is going on. It reeks of "playground" - "I know more than you do" - who cares? I thought we are here as friends, not as competitors to test and challenge each others grasp of Spanish. You're fluent - great for you, you're not - so if you want get fluent "I can help" - but don't flaunt your fluency. My Grandfather taught me a few things and one of them, relative to money, is also applicable about this Spanish pissing contest: your money cannot buy you class, or in this case, your fluency in Spanish cannot buy you class. It is better to share and help.

4. The topic is CRIME and there is that anywhere you live. As it has been said 1,000 times, you research where you are living , traveling, driving to and then decide the risk, crime is everywhere, it is no greater in Mexico than it is in Baltimore, (hell, we just had a cannibalism murder here in good old Baltimore area), and so you live with it. What happens in Baltimore does not mean I shouldn't live in Peoria. It means maybe I shouldn't live in that part of Baltimore. What I am saying is to evaluate where you live and go, you need to find out how what happens in that area affects those who live there, not those who live 200 kms away.

Well, I have spent way too much time on this. If I have offended anyone with my opinion, and they are just opinions, then accept my apology. I just like the Forum the way it is, a friendly place to meet, and this thread seems to have turned from that. I want to leave the judgements and pissing contests on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, HuffPost, etc etc. I come her camaraderie. OK? Again, sorry if I offended anyone.


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## Longford

GringoCArlos said:


> jasavak, I live in Mexico about 360 days a year on average. MX is now my home. My state, for the most part, is a neutral zone, much like Switzerland.


What state do you live in? Thanks.


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## Guest

Longford said:


> What state do you live in? Thanks.


A state of persistent insomnia.....which sometimes leads to grumpiness.


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## jasavak

I gave many examples that came from firsthand accounts. Yes, firsthand because I spoke with the actual people that were the victims of the crimes , and I spoke with my friends, relatives and neighbors who earn their salaries. 
The only third party crime details that I mentioned were about the city of Monterrey . Maybe my friend lied or exaggerated or read it in the paper , it's possible . 


All of the salaries and rents I mentioned are from first hand information except the teacher’s salaries that live across from me and two doors down. 
Their salaries were estimated based on gossip and plenty of hearsay mixed with lots of second and third party guesstimates.  The teachers don’t talk with any of the neighbors. 

The only B.S. I wrote was the abono in the pulque . I’m pretty sure that’s just a rumor . 

P.S. I spelled Huizache correct in my first post, but misspelled it in the second one.


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## mickisue1

jasavak said:


> I gave many examples that came from firsthand accounts. Yes, firsthand because I spoke with the actual people that were the victims of the crimes , and I spoke with my friends, relatives and neighbors who earn their salaries.
> The only third party crime details that I mentioned were about the city of Monterrey . Maybe my friend lied or exaggerated or read it in the paper , it's possible .
> 
> 
> All of the salaries and rents I mentioned are from first hand information except the teacher’s salaries that live across from me and two doors down.
> Their salaries were estimated based on gossip and plenty of hearsay mixed with lots of second and third party guesstimates. The teachers don’t talk with any of the neighbors.
> 
> The only B.S. I wrote was the abono in the pulque . I’m pretty sure that’s just a rumor .
> 
> P.S. I spelled Huizache correct in my first post, but misspelled it in the second one.


This poor horse that I'm beating has been dead for some time. But the proper use of language matters to me.

YOU cannot give a first hand account. The minute the victims stop talking, and you start reporting, it becomes second hand.

And any story, told second hand, is subject, now, to the bias of at least two people: the person who experienced it, and the person who is now telling it.

My husband got a new car last summer. We nearly had an accident, when it was less than two weeks old, because he had blind spots he didn't realize were there, and he wasn't accounting for the blind spots of other drivers: his previous vehicle had been a truck, and was easy to see.

He interpreted the attempt of another driver to move into the space we were seconds from occupying as "aggressive." I, and our passengers, interpreted it as "HE DIDN'T SEE YOU, RON!!!"

Four first person accounts, in one car. Probably three different points of view, at least.


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> P.S. I spelled Huizache correct in my first post, but misspelled it in the second one.


Why this interest in _huizaches_ in the first place, no matter how it's spelled?


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> I gave many examples that came from firsthand accounts. Yes, firsthand because I spoke with the actual people that were the victims of the crimes , and I spoke with my friends, relatives and neighbors who earn their salaries.
> The only third party crime details that I mentioned were about the city of Monterrey . Maybe my friend lied or exaggerated or read it in the paper , it's possible .
> 
> 
> All of the salaries and rents I mentioned are from first hand information except the teacher’s salaries that live across from me and two doors down.
> Their salaries were estimated based on gossip and plenty of hearsay mixed with lots of second and third party guesstimates. The teachers don’t talk with any of the neighbors.
> 
> The only B.S. I wrote was the abono in the pulque . I’m pretty sure that’s just a rumor .
> 
> P.S. I spelled Huizache correct in my first post, but misspelled it in the second one.


I'm sorry but I just don't understand your posts. You insist on calling third party information "First Hand" when more that one poster has pointed out that error. I even sent you a link to the correct definition. 

You refused to answer the question as to how much time you have spent in Mexico and when was the last time you had lived here. They are simple questions and just go to prove your points. Or in this case, disprove them. Much of what you say reminds me of the horns of a bull. A point here and a point there and a bunch of bull in between.

You are a dangerous poster because newbees could take what you say as fact and get the wrong impression of what is happening. Those of us who have been here for some time have read panic posts from people who have taken something that was said as fact and didn't understand until much later what it really was. Just opinion or rumor. 

You have a lot of very good information to share but you cloud it with these unknown hand statements. It clouds everything thing that you say. So sorry, so sad.

This is so confusing that I'm just not going to read any more of your posts nor will I respond to any more. Let all readers beware of the source of your information and go from there.:confused2::confused2:


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## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> Why this interest in _huizaches_ in the first place, no matter how it's spelled?


 

I enjoy a drink from time to time and from earlier posts you will note that I do enjoy fine tequilas.

If I am correct he is referencing not just the huizache bush which is found in Mexico's semiarid regions (sometimes translated into English by ‘sweet acacia’) but Tequila Huizache.

Perhaps he is a fan of this particular tequila and after he drinks a certain amount he gets argumentative and starts to argue over ‘words.’ 

I am not knocking him as an individual and all posters have a right to their opinions (we all give them here) BUT if you review all the posts he seem to hold himself in high esteem (not necessarily a bad thing) as illustrated by his post #67 and in particular his last sentence, which reads: *"I'm here to help if you need help with Mexico's music , history , political or economic issues and vocabulary."*

Having followed this forum for a long time I know there are different individuals here who can and do provide help on these issues but they don’t appear to be "trumpet" players. 

Lesson # 5967892-A & B (ii): (1)Wait and let others compliment you; and (2) Wait and let others determine your expertise and how you might be helpful or not.

No hard feelings - just a personal observation that can be ignored or discarded by anyone who desires to do so.


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## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> I enjoy a drink from time to time and from earlier posts you will note that I do enjoy fine tequilas.
> 
> If I am correct he is referencing not just the huizache bush which is found in Mexico's semiarid regions (sometimes translated into English by ‘sweet acacia’) but Tequila Huizache.
> 
> Perhaps he is a fan of this particular tequila and after he drinks a certain amount he gets argumentative and starts to argue over ‘words.’


That makes sense. I am not a fan of tequila at all, and so "huizache" wouldn't ring a bell with me.


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> That makes sense. I am not a fan of tequila at all, and so "huizache" wouldn't ring a bell with me.


WOW! I thought I was the only person moving to Mexico who wasn't in love with tequila! Wow! I mean is it OK to call yourself and expat in Mexico if your drink (poison) of choice is....vodka!?!? 

Looks like we put the kybosh on the discussion on crime on this thread...on to more important things...like drinking!!! Ole!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> WOW! I thought I was the only person moving to Mexico who wasn't in love with tequila! Wow! I mean is it OK to call yourself and expat in Mexico if your drink (poison) of choice is....vodka!?!?
> 
> Looks like we put the kybosh on the discussion on crime on this thread...on to more important things...like drinking!!! Ole!


My favorite beverage these days is good coffee, which thank God is now available in Mexico outside of La Parroquia in Vera Cruz. In the bad old days, when you asked for coffee, you were served a tall glass of hot milk with a jar of Nescafe and a long spoon.

By the way, not only am I not fond of tequila, but I can only take chile in small amounts, and only the milder varieties. Though for some reason I love really hot kosher-style horseradish and Chinese hot mustard, which I've never be served in Chinese restaurants here.


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> My favorite beverage these days is good coffee, which thank God is now available in Mexico outside of La Parroquia in Vera Cruz. In the bad old days, when you asked for coffee, you were served a tall glass of hot milk with a jar of Nescafe and a long spoon.
> 
> By the way, not only am I not fond of tequila, but I can only take chile in small amounts, and only the milder varieties. Though for some reason I love really hot kosher-style horseradish and Chinese hot mustard, which I've never be served in Chinese restaurants here.


Tell ya what - when I come down to settle. I'll smuggle in some Tolkoff's horseradish. It one of the great things coming out of Baltimore, other than me of course. Wouldn't be Passover without it! Tulkoff Food Products.

Oh and I'll save all those little Chinese restaurant mustard packets, so you can feel at home! All we got to do is figger a way to 1) smuggle stuff into Mexico in jars and 2) smuggle stuff in little packets into Mexico. Perhaps I should call the... no, not a good idea and 3) how to get it to you in D.F. from Ajijic. We've got time to figger all that out!  I know: I'll call on that famous cartel: The *Zaydas* (Or Zaydehs) - look it up


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Tell ya what - when I come down to settle. I'll smuggle in some Tolkoff's horseradish. It one of the great things coming out of Baltimore, other than me of course. Wouldn't be Passover without it! Tulkoff Food Products.
> 
> Oh and I'll save all those little Chinese restaurant mustard packets, so you can feel at home! All we got to do is figger a way to 1) smuggle stuff into Mexico in jars and 2) smuggle stuff in little packets into Mexico. Perhaps I should call the... no, not a good idea and 3) how to get it to you in D.F. from Ajijic. We've got time to figger all that out!


Good deal! I'm sure I could find prepared horseradish in one of the Jewish neighborhoods in the D.F., but I've actually never tried. Call me lazy, I guess.

If you manage to smuggle the jars and packets in to Mexico, I'll figure out a way to pick them up. Or maybe you and SWMBO will get a hankering to visit a really big city and come to the DF for a visit. I'd be happy to give you a tour of my favorite corners of the city.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> WOW! I thought I was the only person moving to Mexico who wasn't in love with tequila! Wow! I mean is it OK to call yourself and expat in Mexico if your drink (poison) of choice is....vodka!?!?
> 
> Looks like we put the kybosh on the discussion on crime on this thread...on to more important things...like drinking!!! Ole!


I wouldn't hold that against you. Tequila isn't my favourite either. Red wine is. But vodka martini's are high on my wife's list.

For a super fresh and smooth tasting vodka try: "Square One Cucumber Organic Vodka."

May sound strange but it is flying off the shelves up here in BC. (Produced in US)

If you like a martini with just a touch of sweetness add a dash of triple sec. Let it sit over ice for a few minutes and then pour into a martini glass and add a few slices of fresh cucumber. Very refreshing.

Web site: www.squareoneorganicspirits.com

Maybe we should start a thread about favourite drinks and recipes. That should go over well with many expats. Best margarita recipe??


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## mickisue1

A vodka martini?

You are going to make me cry. A REAL martini is made with gin. And forget those olives--a martini gets a twist of lemon run around the rim of the glass before you strain it from the shaker, and the the twist is tossed in.

Beefeaters is acceptable. Bombay Sapphire is preferred.

Now, to ruin all that lovely cocktail snobbery, I must admit that I have a martini about once every two or three years. 

But when I do, it's made properly.


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## Detailman

mickisue1 said:


> A vodka martini?
> 
> You are going to make me cry. A REAL martini is made with gin. And forget those olives--a martini gets a twist of lemon run around the rim of the glass before you strain it from the shaker, and the the twist is tossed in.
> 
> Beefeaters is acceptable. Bombay Sapphire is preferred.
> 
> Now, to ruin all that lovely cocktail snobbery, I must admit that I have a martini about once every two or three years.
> 
> But when I do, it's made properly.


If I am having a martini it is only gin and I agree with your recipe and your choice of gins. (Anytime!) I have always preferred the twist of lemon but I have to admit I sometimes add olives as well but when I do I make sure they are olives that are not too salty. I have one brand that is only used for martinis.

Now we are on a roll. Forget about crime. It is Friday and in another five minutes, in Vancouver, it is happy hour. Quick - make the wife's martini! Open the red wine! Joy!!


----------



## pappabee

Detailman said:


> If I am having a martini it is only gin and I agree with your recipe and your choice of gins. (Anytime!) I have always preferred the twist of lemon but I have to admit I sometimes add olives as well but when I do I make sure they are olives that are not too salty. I have one brand that is only used for martinis.
> 
> Now we are on a roll. Forget about crime. It is Friday and in another five minutes, in Vancouver, it is happy hour. Quick - make the wife's martini! Open the red wine! Joy!!


Why doesn't someone start a booze in Mexico thread? I don't drink so I'm not the one to start it.


----------



## mickisue1

pappabee said:


> Why doesn't someone start a booze in Mexico thread? I don't drink so I'm not the one to start it.


This is more Cuban than Mexican, but I made a batch of simple syrup today, just so I can more easily make our favorite summer drink: mojitos.

We have the mint, the rum, the limes, the charged water, and now, the syrup.

AND the coolio muddler that came on Tuesday, too!

:clap2:


----------



## conklinwh

Hate to return to the thread as I know how martini drinkers like to discuss their choices but had an interesting discussion yesterday with a person that does electrical work. He speaks very good English and I had heard that he was offered a job in the US so was surprised to see him. Turns out that he made it as far as Ciudad Victoria where Zetas have sort of instigated an informal blockade for people trying to get to the US. He said that they required significant money to give their OK and he didn't have it so he returned.
I had read somewhere that the most successful deterrent to illegal immigration were the cartels and I guess that is true.


----------



## FHBOY

conklinwh said:


> Hate to return to the thread as I know how martini drinkers like to discuss their choices but had an interesting discussion yesterday with a person that does electrical work. He speaks very good English and I had heard that he was offered a job in the US so was surprised to see him. Turns out that he made it as far as Ciudad Victoria where Zetas have sort of instigated an informal blockade for people trying to get to the US. He said that they required significant money to give their OK and he didn't have it so he returned.
> I had read somewhere that the most successful deterrent to illegal immigration were the cartels and I guess that is true.


Interesting perspective: the cartels preventing illegal immigration to the US. I think their methods may be a bit more harsh than ICE, but maybe less harsh than some of those USA border vigilantes we read about a few years ago.

Didn't the CIA try to work with the Mafia to eliminate Castro, or the US Intelligence service try the same thing during WWII to get rid of Mussolini?

Other than money, why would the cartels not want Mexicans crossing illegally into the USA?


----------



## conklinwh

My guess is mostly money but also expect they want to control the flow so as not to impact drug transfers. Also, expect that they acquire "mules" for transport.


----------



## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Interesting perspective: the cartels preventing illegal immigration to the US. I think their methods may be a bit more harsh than ICE, but maybe less harsh than some of those USA border vigilantes we read about a few years ago.
> 
> Didn't the CIA try to work with the Mafia to eliminate Castro, or the US Intelligence service try the same thing during WWII to get rid of Mussolini?
> 
> Other than money, why would the cartels not want Mexicans crossing illegally into the USA?


FHBoy,

I was so sorry to come across the bad news today. 

Up until now I thought the contagion might be contained but I see you have contracted GringoCarlosiitus. The forum should be warned to get their innoculations as quickly as possible before it spreads further. 

I extend my sympathies. Hope you get over it quickly.


----------



## joaquinx

mickisue1 said:


> Beefeaters is acceptable. Bombay Sapphire is preferred.


It has to be Tanqueray. It's the only 94 proof gin. Enough to give the martini zing.


----------



## Detailman

joaquinx said:


> It has to be Tanqueray. It's the only 94 proof gin. Enough to give the martini zing.


That is what is in my cupboard!! I can also go for Tanqueray No. Ten. :clap2:

But I will still accept the others at my brother-in-laws!


----------



## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> FHBoy,
> 
> I was so sorry to come across the bad news today.
> 
> Up until now I thought the contagion might be contained but I see you have contracted GringoCarlosiitus. The forum should be warned to get their innoculations as quickly as possible before it spreads further.
> 
> I extend my sympathies. Hope you get over it quickly.


Muchas Gracias - I wondered if anyone would notice


----------



## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Muchas Gracias - I wondered if anyone would notice


Be careful - GringoCarlos could go after you for plagiarism!! 

Worse still - your rep power could drop back down -- BIG TIME!! 

Tread carefully. It's a swamp out there!


----------



## DNP

Pulling I all together, Crime and Cocktails

Let it be known , so be forewarned.

As most of you know, under Napoleonic law, you are guilty until proven innocent, and if accused, YOU must prove your innocence.

Expats,in particular, be warned: if you have never tried a martini made with 100% Agave tequila, up, shaken, with a twist, you are thus and forevermore guilty.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## Detailman

DNP said:


> Pulling I all together, Crime and Cocktails
> 
> Let it be known , so be forewarned.
> 
> As most of you know, under Napoleonic law, you are guilty until proven innocent, and if accused, YOU must prove your innocence.
> 
> Expats,in particular, be warned: if you have never tried a martini made with 100% Agave tequila, up, shaken, with a twist, you are thus and forevermore guilty.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


First I acknowledge the "guilty until proven innocent" comment and Napoleonic law. With my involvement with legalities I must admit that is the one thing I do not like about Mexico. Others may not see it that way and I appreciate their viewpoint. I sometimes wish that I knew less about the legal system than I did. (Which also includes verifiable second hand stories that have been well reported on.)

Second. Never tried one but I can hardly wait until tomorrow to do so. Please expand. A twist of what?

I presume: Several ounces of say Don Julio Anejo tequila, several ice cubes, (a twist of _____lemon? or lime?)??

If that is correct the only thing I might experiment with for someone like my wife, who likes her martini with a bit of sweetness, is to add a bit of Cointreau. But I will try your recipe for myself. Gracias. (It will make the reports of crime go down smoother.)


----------



## DNP

You've got the recipe right. Prepare as you would normally prepare your favorite martini. Add Cointreau if your wife is game. The secret is the 100% Agave. The brand isn't as important.

I like mine with a twist of lemon or lime, whatever is on hand. Enjoy!



Detailman said:


> First I acknowledge the "guilty until proven innocent" comment and Napoleonic law. With my involvement with legalities I must admit that is the one thing I do not like about Mexico. Others may not see it that way and I appreciate their viewpoint. I sometimes wish that I knew less about the legal system than I did. (Which also includes verifiable second hand stories that have been well reported on.)
> 
> Second. Never tried one but I can hardly wait until tomorrow to do so. Please expand. A twist of what?
> 
> I presume: Several ounces of say Don Julio Anejo tequila, several ice cubes, (a twist of _____lemon? or lime?)??
> 
> If that is correct the only thing I might experiment with for someone like my wife, who likes her martini with a bit of sweetness, is to add a bit of Cointreau. But I will try your recipe for myself. Gracias. (It will make the reports of crime go down smoother.)


----------



## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> Be careful - GringoCarlos could go after you for plagiarism!!  -* He can't, he didn't invent Western Samoa, nor do I see a (c) or (tm) after his ID.* :boxing:
> 
> Worse still - your rep power could drop back down -- BIG TIME!!  *Yes, if I figured out how it is computed I'd be worried also, but until that time - What, Me Worry?*
> 
> Tread carefully. It's a swamp out there!


In all seriousness I am changing it back. It is a good inside joke, but there are, hopefully, new people coming here every day and they want, as I wanted, to know that the opinions and advice and stuff is coming from (semi)serious people.

Oh - concerning martinis - mine are all Tanqueray poured over vermouth coated ice, without the vermouth - even that is not dry enough. So, if you just pour tequila into a glass with ice, what makes that a tequila martini - sounds like tequila on the rocks to me. Salut! (or as we say on Japan: Kompai!). Amd after a few, who cares about Napoleon - "The short French dead dude - Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure


----------



## mickisue1

DNP said:


> Pulling I all together, Crime and Cocktails
> 
> Let it be known , so be forewarned.
> 
> As most of you know, under Napoleonic law, you are guilty until proven innocent, and if accused, YOU must prove your innocence.
> 
> Expats,in particular, be warned: if you have never tried a martini made with 100% Agave tequila, up, shaken, with a twist, you are thus and forevermore guilty.
> 
> WashDC/SMA


Bah. Even the most amazing tequila can't be a martini. 

It's like calling gin and orange juice a screwdriver.

There's nothing wrong with drinking tequila and a little dry vermouth, with a twist. But it's not a martini.

I'm not a hater of Tanqueray, in fact, I like it. My comment about Beefeaters was meant to express that it's the lowest acceptable gin for a martini. Tanqueray steps it up a bit. Bombay Sapphire makes it superb.


----------



## conklinwh

Confirms what I've always thought-Martini drinkers are obsessive!


----------



## AlanMexicali

conklinwh said:


> Confirms what I've always thought-Martini drinkers are obsessive!


Or they have watched one James Bond film too many. LOL


----------



## FHBOY

conklinwh said:


> Confirms what I've always thought-Martini drinkers are obsessive!


And Damn Right Proud of It! It gives us an air of superiority over the Bud Light crowd...so there! :boxing:


----------



## conklinwh

Bud Light! Wash your mouth out. One of the great things about Mexico is the ability to get away from products made by Bud or Miller.
Must admit, I grew up a Manhattan drinker and always thought Martini drinkers a bit pretentious. Had thought that shaken/stirred crowd a bit less here as much better to compare the merits of the many anejo tequilas and mezcals.


----------



## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> And Damn Right Proud of It! It gives us an air of superiority over the Bud Light crowd...so there! :boxing:


You just might as well get over it and become a tequila drinker and leave the past behind. Less baggage to bring with you. Set yourself free.


----------



## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> You just might as well get over it and become a tequila drinker and leave the past behind. Less baggage to bring with you. Set yourself free.


So, to paraphrase: _"The tequila will set you free!"_ (?)

Now what were talking about...oh yeah, crime in Mexico. Anyone read the news article about the burned out van in Arizona?


----------



## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> So, to paraphrase: _"The tequila will set you free!"_ (?)
> 
> Now what were talking about...oh yeah, crime in Mexico. Anyone read the news article about the burned out van in Arizona?


What does a burned out van in Arizona have to do with tequila? We are in Mexico now! LOL


----------



## mickisue1

conklinwh said:


> Confirms what I've always thought-Martini drinkers are obsessive!


You should see the razor sharp folds on my hospital cornered bed.

Ignore the desk, though. It ruins the image.


----------



## Detailman

conklinwh said:


> Confirms what I've always thought-Martini drinkers are obsessive!


Obsessive! Much too harsh a word to use just because I enjoy an occasional martini. To date you are the first person to attribute that word to me. But then again, you can call me whatever you want because I happen to like people who are obsessed with old mines. And your posts to this forum are too good to even fantasize about you ... and a mine shaft.


If I have a passion it is for learning and as a result I am an avid reader. I love to learn by experience too. As a result I have lived in different places, different circumstances, with different jobs until I found the one I was extremely suited for.

As I have never tried a tequila martini the idea interested me.

Just made one and tried it with the wife. Used extra aged anejo tequila (2 oz); 1/3 oz of cointreau, slice of lime rind, probably 3 drops of real lime juice. Let it sit over 4 ice cubes for about 4 minutes and then poured it into a martini glass. I must say it is very refreshing and my wife concurred.

Now we can go back to the crime. But I thought that we have beat that subject to death many times over the past months. I would summarize our findings as such:
1. Crime is increasing world wide and is becoming more violent.
2. No area is completely safe from random crime.
3. The majority of Mexico has less crime than most other countries, including the US.
4. NOB people love to sensationalise everything that happens here.
5. If one follows normal precautions and has some street smarts they can cut down the possibility of being affected by crime of many types.
6. Watch your associations, the places you frequent, the times you do so, avoid bad areas, don’t flash money or jewellery, don’t play up your past or your connections, stay low-key.
7. DRINK YOUR MARTINI! SMILE! LIFE IS WONDERFUL!


----------



## conklinwh

You got me up to #7! BTW, I have walk in mine on property in Pozos. A little dusty to see if any mineral veins but fun to explore.


----------



## conklinwh

You got me up to #7! BTW,took a walk this morning as usual through a few abandoned mine complexes. Just me, my dogs and a few wandering cows. I do have walk in mine on property in Pozos. A little dusty to see if any mineral veins but fun to explore.


----------



## Detailman

conklinwh said:


> You got me up to #7! BTW,took a walk this morning as usual through a few abandoned mine complexes. Just me, my dogs and a few wandering cows. I do have walk in mine on property in Pozos. A little dusty to see if any mineral veins but fun to explore.


Just as long as you are always careful in those mines. (I know you would be.) Hope that you have a good flashlight. 

Among the best I have bought were made by Fenix. Surprisingly they are made in China but they are recognized as among the best of all brands. The batteries they take have a storage life of 10 years, operate in freezing temperatures, keep their full beam up until the last few minutes, have multiple choices of beam intensity that can last from 2 hours (ultra bright) to 160 hours (lowest setting). Also have a strobe function that can disorient an attacker and a SOS mode. Made out of aircraft aluminum and are waterproof (not water resistant). Would think that anyone exploring mines would want a top flashlight.

The website if you want to look at them: Fenix Tactical - Fenix LED Flashlights - fenixtactical.com - fenix-led

My two favourites (both small and ultra bright for the size - would easily beat a mag flashlight with 3 or 4 size d batteries): PD32 and PD22. Worth every penny.


----------



## conklinwh

Biggest problem is to to watch step and headroom. We solved with spelunker lights for head and hand held flashlight for feet. Pretty solid rock although can see in a couple places where used beam supports. Just me maybe but I am less likely to enter where 100 year old + beam supports.


----------



## BombonTorres

I can't say that I'm impartial, but Veracruz is awesome. I live in Tepic, Nayarit and the crime is not terrible, but since the put the big jail here, it's been worse. Way to go Mexican government.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Extorsion Free Mexico*



elsonador said:


> MtnWoman- Thanks for the input on small business and such.
> I think exploring is the best way to find out...just looking to move somewhere thats not "little America" and safe to work, live, and educate
> 
> I may have to start a new thread for this next question...It is about childrens citizenships, If one parent is a US citizen, the other a Mexican citizen...kids born in Mexico, I assume become Mexican citizens? Mexico does not have dual citizenship from what I read correct?


Hi;

I can generally tell you that "el Chapo" head of the Sinaloa Cartel, has been quoted as "ordering" his troops, which are run quite like an army, not to kidnap, or extort the population. He's in the Drug business pure and simple. So find those states, that he controls (with little warfare from other Cartels), and you'd be safer. I know we are where we live since, it's been romoured that he's bought the "plaza rights", and is in control now. We had a horrible (5 Cartel) full on Drug War like in Juarez a few years back and it was hell. Now, things seem very stable like before all this started..

Mr. Salyer


----------



## conklinwh

Hopefully the drug trade doesn't get tougher and like the mafia after prohibition he looks for alternate sources of income like protection and extortion. I grew up in probably the safest county in NJ as it was home to many of the families families. Saying was that you don't sh** where you live.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Dual Citizenship*



cuylers5746 said:


> Hi;
> 
> I can generally tell you that "el Chapo" head of the Sinaloa Cartel, has been quoted as "ordering" his troops, which are run quite like an army, not to kidnap, or extort the population. He's in the Drug business pure and simple. So find those states, that he controls (with little warfare from other Cartels), and you'd be safer. I know we are where we live since, it's been romoured that he's bought the "plaza rights", and is in control now. We had a horrible (5 Cartel) full on Drug War like in Juarez a few years back and it was hell. Now, things seem very stable like before all this started..
> 
> Mr. Salyer


Dual Citizenship;

No as of about 12 years ago they changed the Mexican Constitution to include that. A Mexican National can now take up US Citizenship also without forfeiting their Mexican Citizenship. Very important for ability of ownership of property without the restrictions placed on foreigners and not having to pay what I term a "Bankers Tax", on buying Property in those restricted areas. Saves a lot of money over the course of the lifetime you have that property. Needless, stupid tax that 90% of the times is only for the Bankers.

Of course your kids born in Mexico with one Mexican National parent are now Mexican Nationals. You then can apply to USA for them to become US Citizens too.

Mr. Salyer


----------



## chicois8

conklinwh said:


> Hopefully the drug trade doesn't get tougher and like the mafia after prohibition he looks for alternate sources of income like protection and extortion. I grew up in probably the safest county in NJ as it was home to many of the families families. Saying was that you don't sh** where you live.



Sorry to say protection and extortion have already turned Mexico into the Chicago of the 30's, que lastima


----------



## Isla Verde

cuylers5746 said:


> Of course your kids born in Mexico with one Mexican National parent are now Mexican Nationals. You then can apply to USA for them to become US Citizens too.


In fact, any child born in Mexico is automatically a Mexican citizen, even if neither parent is Mexican.


----------



## pappabee

chicois8 said:


> Sorry to say protection and extortion have already turned Mexico into the Chicago of the 30's, que lastima


I disagree with you completely. How can you equate the deadliest city in the US to the entire Country of Mexico. Drive drivebys in Chicago killed more innocents in one month than have been killed in an entire year in Mexico. 

The organization had rules in Chicago. No killing of cops, no killing of wives or girlfriends and no killing of kids. Those rules staid in place until the "commission" was ousted and a few power hungry men (Capone, Lansky, Weiss, etc) took over. But even with all that Mexico is still safer. 

You also left out a few more of the Chicago outlets. How about the numbers game, gambling, prostitution etc. all part and parcel of what went on in Chicago during the '30.


----------



## johnmex

pappabee said:


> ... How about the numbers game, gambling, prostitution etc. all part and parcel of what went on in Chicago during the '30.


WENT on? Still happening...


----------



## pappabee

johnmex said:


> WENT on? Still happening...


Oh come on, I didn't say that it stopped just that it was going on during that time. Now a lot of the killing has gotten better because the crooks have gotten smarter and are now trying to run things like a business. Not like it was then. 

Killing the competition is not the way to win friends and motivate people. The Cartels here think that cutting off hands, legs and heads is the way. I'm not quite sure that is the answer either. :eyebrows:


----------



## FHBOY

The geographically isolated, relatively, incidents of cartel violence is, I agree,is unlike the mob violence of the 30's, even until up to the '70's - where "civilians", family and cops were out of bounds. 

Mexican cartels now seem more like the rise of the Russian mob in the USA since the'80's, where there are no rules like in the old days, and anyone is fair game. The parallel also runs into the operations. The cartels are, no doubt, running legitimate businesses in addition to their illegal activities. More and more the USA mobs of all makeups have the same modus operandi.

The difference seems that the USA mobs - past and present - seem to confine their killing to those directly linked to the heinous act - a witness to a murder, the wife of a victim, etc, whereas this random kidnapping and murder in Mexico is worse and more of an act of terror (as we not define it) than of strictly revenge or "convenience".


----------



## Longford

Here's a link to one reliable source's advice (including graphic map) regarding where the greatest risks (primarily due to the war and related violence) may be when in Mexico:

http://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedFiles/MEXICOMAP4.pdf


----------



## jasavak

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi;
> 
> I can generally tell you that "el Chapo" head of the Sinaloa Cartel, has been quoted as "ordering" his troops, which are run quite like an army, not to kidnap, or extort the population. He's in the Drug business pure and simple. So find those states, that he controls (with little warfare from other Cartels), and you'd be safer. I know we are where we live since, it's been romoured that he's bought the "plaza rights", and is in control now. We had a horrible (5 Cartel) full on Drug War like in Juarez a few years back and it was hell. Now, things seem very stable like before all this started..
> 
> Mr. Salyer



Yup , the cartels don't want the attention from the authorities and press. In addition to keeping their cartel members from committing crimes , they severely frown upon others who commit crime in their territory .


----------



## FHBOY

Longford said:


> Here's a link to one reliable source's advice (including graphic map) regarding where the greatest risks (primarily due to the war and related violence) may be when in Mexico:
> 
> http://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedFiles/MEXICOMAP4.pdf


Great Link and graphic - makes it easy to explain to skeptics about our move - thanks


----------



## conklinwh

Longford said:


> Here's a link to one reliable source's advice (including graphic map) regarding where the greatest risks (primarily due to the war and related violence) may be when in Mexico:
> 
> http://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedFiles/MEXICOMAP4.pdf


Pretty bleak analysis. Basically it says if driving to/from the US, you can't get there from here.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Isn't 15 pages of this crap enough? I haven't seen any expat disasters lately; have you? Mostly, we're dying of old age and boredom.


----------



## circle110

Longford said:


> Here's a link to one reliable source's advice (including graphic map) regarding where the greatest risks (primarily due to the war and related violence) may be when in Mexico:
> 
> http://www.travelweekly.com/uploadedFiles/MEXICOMAP4.pdf


That's very vague. I was hoping it would present some actual information beyond "Travelers are frequent targets for violence". How frequent? 

Highway 85 from NL to Monterrey is a cuota and has over a million cars travel it per month. If the targeted violence occurs say three times per year, then your odds of a safe trip are better than 4 million to one. If violence occurs five times per day (it doesn't, but...) then they are more like 6,000 to one. In any case we're not looking at anything like 50/50 survival odds to drive that road but that map implies something more like that.

I know statistics can easily be loaded or manipulated but some basic facts on a "reliable" document such as this would be nice.


----------



## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Isn't 15 pages of this crap enough? I haven't seen any expat disasters lately; have you? Mostly, we're dying of old age and boredom.



Approaching old age, inevitable. Boredom, never!


----------



## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> Isn't 15 pages of this crap enough? I haven't seen any expat disasters lately; have you? Mostly, we're dying of old age and boredom.


Curmudgeonly words of wisdom. 
Yes the topic has been beaten to death.


----------



## Longford

:focus:

Crime, the war and related terrorist activities are certainly topics of concern in many of the communities where many expats have located themselves, and also amongst snowbirds and other seasonal visitors. One such place where the topic has been on the 'front burner' for some is San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato. A recent survey of 300 persons in SMA was released Friday. It demonstrates the level of information ... correct or incorrect ... some people in that community have. Click on the link below, and read for yourself:

San Miguel Security--Working together to promote safety


----------



## DNP

Longford said:


> :focus:
> 
> Crime, the war and related terrorist activities are certainly topics of concern in many of the communities where many expats have located themselves, and also amongst snowbirds and other seasonal visitors. One such place where the topic has been on the 'front burner' for some is San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato. A recent survey of 300 persons in SMA was released Friday. It demonstrates the level of information ... correct or incorrect ... some people in that community have. Click on the link below, and read for yourself:
> 
> San Miguel Security--Working together to promote safety


Good survey.

Interesting how two people can read the same thing and come away with different impressions. I learned nothing about "crime, the war, and related terrorist activities" from the survey, or anything about those as "topics of concern" that you mentioned in your intro., or anything indicating them as being "on the front burner" of anything in San Miguel from the survey itself.

Seems to me the survey was trying to measure something quite different.

Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


----------



## jasavak

Longford said:


> :focus:
> 
> Crime, the war and related terrorist activities are certainly topics of concern in many of the communities where many expats have located themselves, and also amongst snowbirds and other seasonal visitors. One such place where the topic has been on the 'front burner' for some is San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato. A recent survey of 300 persons in SMA was released Friday. It demonstrates the level of information ... correct or incorrect ... some people in that community have. Click on the link below, and read for yourself:
> 
> San Miguel Security--Working together to promote safety



That survey verified my suspicions that many people who live in Mexico full time don't necessarily know more about the system than part time residents .


----------



## FHBOY

DNP said:


> Good survey.
> 
> Interesting how two people can read the same thing and come away with different impressions. I learned nothing about "crime, the war, and related terrorist activities" from the survey, or anything about those as "topics of concern" that you mentioned in your intro., or anything indicating them as being "on the front burner" of anything in San Miguel from the survey itself.
> 
> Seems to me the survey was trying to measure something quite different.
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


I agree, I do not see this as a attitudinal survey, just a survey of facts from which, except for question 20, one cannot draw any conclusion. Was there more to the article perhaps? 

NOTE: see we have more/different emoticons ---->


----------



## conorkilleen

The part about Expats importing firearms into Mexico as "home protection" is wrong. The other 75% of that section is somewhat correct. I would take most of that article with a grain of salt.


----------



## Longford

FHBOY said:


> I agree, I do not see this as a attitudinal survey, just a survey of facts from which, except for question 20, one cannot draw any conclusion. Was there more to the article perhaps?


There have been concerns in both the local (Mexican) resident and expat resident/visitor community in SMA regarding crimes, which parts of the government are responsible for what enforcement/protection/prosecution, etc. The criminal scene in Mexico is thoroughly interwoven with the drug cartels. Though SMA hasn't seen the same or same volume of horrendous crimes some other parts of the country have. The communities adjacent to Lake Chapala in Jalisco, for example, have been expressing greater concerns regarding the expansion of the war to that area - and the Guadalajara communities generally. The website to which the survey results were posted (http://sanmiguelsecurity.com/index.html) focuses on the reporting of crimes in SMA, where to report them, how to better police the community, etc. and if you examine the page on which the survey results are presented in the link I provided I believe you will see links to other security-related articles about which you may have an interest.


----------



## tepetapan

conorkilleen said:


> The part about Expats importing firearms into Mexico as "home protection" is wrong. The other 75% of that section is somewhat correct. I would take most of that article with a grain of salt.


 From what I read it was gun ownership NOT gun importation. 


The Mexican constitution permits all legal residents of Mexico to keep a firearm in the home for personal protection, non-Mexican citizens included.


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## conorkilleen

tepetapan said:


> From what I read it was gun ownership NOT gun importation.
> 
> 
> The Mexican constitution permits all legal residents of Mexico to keep a firearm in the home for personal protection, non-Mexican citizens included.


read it again. 2 sentences about US bought and owned firearms being allowed in Mexico with "paperwork".


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## conorkilleen

tepetapan said:


> From what I read it was gun ownership NOT gun importation.
> 
> 
> The Mexican constitution permits all legal residents of Mexico to keep a firearm in the home for personal protection, non-Mexican citizens included.


I misspoke when I said "importation". Permit to bring into Mexico for home protection is what it said. But its still incorrect.


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## conorkilleen

circle110 said:


> That's very vague. I was hoping it would present some actual information beyond "Travelers are frequent targets for violence". How frequent?
> 
> Highway 85 from NL to Monterrey is a cuota and has over a million cars travel it per month. If the targeted violence occurs say three times per year, then your odds of a safe trip are better than 4 million to one. If violence occurs five times per day (it doesn't, but...) then they are more like 6,000 to one. In any case we're not looking at anything like 50/50 survival odds to drive that road but that map implies something more like that.
> 
> I know statistics can easily be loaded or manipulated but some basic facts on a "reliable" document such as this would be nice.


Thank you


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## Longford

conorkilleen said:


> The part about Expats importing firearms into Mexico as "home protection" is wrong. The other 75% of that section is somewhat correct. I would take most of that article with a grain of salt.


Here's what the section in question says, as I read it on the website I linked:



> ... all residents who want to keep a firearm in the home must first apply to the Mexican Army for a permit. If the permit is issued, the firearm must be purchased in Mexico from the Mexican Army. However, if a non-Mexican resident owns a firearm that was purchased outside of Mexico, for example in the US, has a US permit for the firearm and if the firearm is physically located in the US, the non-Mexican resident may apply to the Mexican Army for a permit to bring that firearm into Mexico to keep at home for personal protection. Obtaining such permits is complex and extremely time consuming.


I don't own a firearm., and didn't when I lived in Mexico either. And I don't intend to when I move back to Mexico. So I'm not familiar with the do's and don'ts. What in the quoted paragraph is wrong?

Thanks.


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## tepetapan

conorkilleen said:


> read it again. 2 sentences about US bought and owned firearms being allowed in Mexico with "paperwork".


 That is what it says, you are correct. Weather it is true or not I have no idea but I am leaning towards NO...but I have never met or heard of anyone who tried to jump through those hoops. I know my nephew in law (if such a term exsists) can bring a gun in from the USA but he is a Fereral Policeman. He mentioned it once but never has, even though the cost for a nice Glock would be a lot cheaper than here in Mexico. It may be that the rules changed or that it is just too much hassle even for him.
...............as written ...........
.."However, if a non-Mexican resident owns a firearm that was purchased outside of Mexico, for example in the US, has a US permit for the firearm and if the firearm is physically located in the US, the non-Mexican resident may apply to the Mexican Army for a permit to bring that firearm into Mexico to keep at home for personal protection. Obtaining such permits is complex and extremely time consuming. "


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## FHBOY

_"The communities adjacent to Lake Chapala in Jalisco, for example, have been expressing greater concerns regarding the expansion of the war to that area - and the Guadalajara communities generally." _ - Longford

We have been discussing the crime thread for a while and the evidence from the participants here from Lakeside does not seem to support the argument. I am not saying Longford has drawn a wrong conclusion, but that we have not seen reports here, from expats to support the assertion.

From what I remember over the past year there has been two (or three) cartel related incidents, all of them horrific, in the area. From a USA perspective, that is not as serious as what we read happening somewhere every day NOB. But, perspective is relative and after living a crime free life, away from the drugs we accept as an everyday occurrence NOB, I can see that the people of Lakeside would get "concerned".

I am not trying to be Pollyanna-ish about the situation, but yet, over the two years I've been posting here, I have found that expats at Lakeside have not expressed greater concern-but have shown a heightened awareness.

No, I am not a member of the Lakeside Chamber of Commerce. Will the problem spread to Lakeside, SMA, PV, Cancun, Baja Sur et. al. and other enclaves and communities and scare off expats? I can't imagine the Mexican government "allowing" it to get worse as this is a source of revenue into the economy; the monies from USA pensions, SS, etc which flows into the Mexican economy. It does seem that to allow this source of revenue, this profit center, to be destroyed is not good business. Here in Baltimore, we concentrate our police around the Harborplace, the jewel of downtown, so the tourist/conventioneer dollars do not go away. It is not good policing for the city in general, as there is crime all over, but it is good municipal business and keeps $$$ flowing into the city.


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## conorkilleen

My permit paperwork is almost complete. I have an FM3. I am not allowed to bring a gun into Mexico for "protection". If I am a hunter then that is a different story and use it for hunting, but one that is full of holes in terms of truth. I CAN buy a gun from the Army in DF and keep in my home, but NOT my AR-15 or my Remi .22 that I have and is permitted in the US. No paperwork will allow that from what the Mexican government tells me.


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## conorkilleen

"However, if a non-Mexican resident owns a firearm that was purchased outside of Mexico, for example in the US, has a US permit for the firearm and if the firearm is physically located in the US, the non-Mexican resident may apply to the Mexican Army for a permit to bring that firearm into Mexico to keep at home for personal protection. Obtaining such permits is complex and extremely time consuming. "

This is the statement I consider to be false due to what the Mexican government told me. If you are hunter and use the gun for hunting, then I hear there is a 1% chance. somewhere else said that its easy and you can do it just not the ammunition. HOWEVER, by no way possible can a Non-Mexican resident bring across the border their US owned gun, just for "home" protection. Mexico told me so. If you can prove this wrong then let me know the government official you spoke to and the office he works at. I want to apply there.


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## dongringo

Conorkillen - Unfortunately you are right, but you do have the opportunity to lie a lot to overcome some difficulties..


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## mickisue1

dongringo said:


> Conorkillen - Unfortunately you are right, but you do have the opportunity to lie a lot to overcome some difficulties..


Not such a great idea, Hmmmmm?


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## tepetapan

FHBOY said:


> _"...... I can't imagine the Mexican government "allowing" it to get worse as this is a source of revenue into the economy; the monies from USA pensions, SS, etc which flows into the Mexican economy. ,,,,._


_
+
That is one of the things about many exPats, thinking their money really is important to the economy of Mexico. The 10th, 11th, or 12th largest economy in the world, depending on the latest numbers. The ExPat money is great for local economies, no doubt, but in the big picture probably are far less than 1% of the GNP. Like the guy giving the speach to the graduating high school students said, "you are not special"
Take it to the bank, Mexico can do fine with or without a bunch of exPats making demands._


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## FHBOY

tepetapan said:


> +
> That is one of the things about many exPats, thinking their money really is important to the economy of Mexico. The 10th, 11th, or 12th largest economy in the world, depending on the latest numbers. The ExPat money is great for local economies, no doubt, but in the big picture probably are far less than 1% of the GNP. Like the guy giving the speach to the graduating high school students said, "you are not special"
> Take it to the bank, Mexico can do fine with or without a bunch of exPats making demands.


Can't argue with that - but it sure does seem they put on a show over it. Oh, and as to demands, I totally agree with you - I do not believe that expats as guests in Mexico have the right to tell Mexico how to run it's country. Just as any guest, you need to accept the way it is, the way you voluntarily decided to visit (stay) and work within it. And, it sounds hard - but if you don't like the way it is, then you are free to leave.

We were staying in PV for a while and wandered around in our car, up and down the main drag. Then, one day a cruise ship came in. All of a sudden there were Federales all over the place, in trucks, manning sandbagged posts, armed to the teeth and all. Next day, no ship, no Federales. Another ship came in, same routine. For less than 1% of their economy, they sure put on a great show (and unfortunately reinforce the message about Mexico being "unsafe").


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## tepetapan

FHBOY said:


> Can't argue with that - but it sure does seem they put on a show over it. Oh, and as to demands, I totally agree with you - I do not believe that expats as guests in Mexico have the right to tell Mexico how to run it's country. Just as any guest, you need to accept the way it is, the way you voluntarily decided to visit (stay) and work within it. And, it sounds hard - but if you don't like the way it is, then you are free to leave.
> 
> We were staying in PV for a while and wandered around in our car, up and down the main drag. Then, one day a cruise ship came in. All of a sudden there were Federales all over the place, in trucks, manning sandbagged posts, armed to the teeth and all. Next day, no ship, no Federales. Another ship came in, same routine. For less than 1% of their economy, they sure put on a great show (and unfortunately reinforce the message about Mexico being "unsafe").


.
First off FMBoy that is tourism, not a bunch of old people buying or renting a home along or near some a lake. You may not understand the differance but Mexico does, that I can assure you. Tourism is big business, living here is a whole different thing. There is tourism where it is" come leave your money and go home"," Gracias.. Adios". Or is it "Gracias a Dios"? Hmmm.


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## Longford

FHBOY said:


> _"The communities adjacent to Lake Chapala in Jalisco, for example, have been expressing greater concerns regarding the expansion of the war to that area - and the Guadalajara communities generally." _ - Longford





> We have been discussing the crime thread for a while and the evidence from the participants here from Lakeside does not seem to support the argument. I am not saying Longford has drawn a wrong conclusion, but that we have not seen reports here, from expats to support the assertion.


If you are limiting your research/reading to just this website, I suggest you broaden your pool of information. I'm not going to do the research for you, to demonstrate the level of concern being expressed by many people Lakeside, but in 5 minutes I came up with the following ... have a read for yourself:

Proceso » Chapala Se achica el paraíso de los jubilados
After Tonights Meeting on Ajijic Plaza Please Post the Facts
The Army and State Police - have they left?
CSI TOWN HALL MEETING - JUNE 1 AT 6:00 PM on CHAPALA MALECON
Crime Reports are Really Causing Me Grief
All crimes removed from Chapala.com
http://www.lakesidecrimetracker.com/
chapala.com Web Board


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## pappabee

Longford said:


> If you are limiting your research/reading to just this website, I suggest you broaden your pool of information. I'm not going to do the research for you, to demonstrate the level of concern being expressed by many people Lakeside, but in 5 minutes I came up with the following ... have a read for yourself:
> 
> Proceso » Chapala Se achica el paraíso de los jubilados
> After Tonights Meeting on Ajijic Plaza Please Post the Facts
> The Army and State Police - have they left?
> CSI TOWN HALL MEETING - JUNE 1 AT 6:00 PM on CHAPALA MALECON
> Crime Reports are Really Causing Me Grief
> All crimes removed from Chapala.com
> http://www.lakesidecrimetracker.com/
> chapala.com Web Board


OK enough of this is enough. If you look at page one of the Guadalajara Reporter you will find an article about the concerns of people at Lakeside'
Guadalajara Reporter

You have posted a bunch of links. None of them address the original comments. As an example what does Chapala.com have to do with crime at Lakeside? They don't want to become another rumor mill. Smart idea. 

We have all discussed this ad nausium (sp) and given our views. You have added nothing to that mix except more places to find nothing new. Please if you can't bring new information to the site then just let it go. THE HORSE IS ALREADY DEAD.


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## FHBOY

In the interest of the ideals of this Forum, I am bowing out of this thread - it is of no further use, it has been rehashed and there is no more that I can add. The horse is dead, leave it alone.


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## Longford

pappabee said:


> OK enough of this is enough. If you look at page one of the Guadalajara Reporter you will find an article about the concerns of people at Lakeside'
> Guadalajara Reporter
> 
> You have posted a bunch of links. None of them address the original comments. As an example what does Chapala.com have to do with crime at Lakeside? They don't want to become another rumor mill. Smart idea.
> 
> We have all discussed this ad nausium (sp) and given our views. You have added nothing to that mix except more places to find nothing new. Please if you can't bring new information to the site then just let it go. THE HORSE IS ALREADY DEAD.


My comments were in direct response to FHBoy's suggestion that since he had not read on this forum similar remarks to what I had said in an earlier post that I must have been mistaken. I responded to his comment/question and such a response is perfectly appropriate. I understand that there are people who will be uncomfortable when certain subjects are discussed and about comments with which they disagree. However, only the moderators are entitled to close a discussion and individuals have no right to censor or suggest the censorship of discussions ... so that their personal viewpoints are the only ones presented for consideration. What I originally said was truthful, evidenced by the discussions and articles I linked to support them.


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## MaidenScotland

Closed till the Mexico mod is available


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