# Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?



## mrypg9

Just wondering.....and it's raining, third day running.....


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## jojo

yeah, just started raining here again. This morning was nice, but theres a feeling in the air of a pending storm methinks!!!

Jo xx


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## mrypg9

The guy who looks after our pool and garden just came to turn our sprinklers off, was telling me he was over 2000 euros a month worse off as he has lost several clients -he looks after houses, is a general handyman/jack-of-all -trades.
Yep, the outlook is gloomy, economy and weather-wise:spit:


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> The guy who looks after our pool and garden just came to turn our sprinklers off, was telling me he was over 2000 euros a month worse off as he has lost several clients -he looks after houses, is a general handyman/jack-of-all -trades.
> Yep, the outlook is gloomy, economy and weather-wise:spit:


STOP IT!!!!! :lalala::lalala:

Mind you, he must have been earning a fair bit beforehand, if thats how much he's lost???


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> STOP IT!!!!! :lalala::lalala:
> 
> Mind you, he must have been earning a fair bit beforehand, if thats how much he's lost???
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, he's not doing too badly. We pay him 300 euros a month and he comes once a week in summer to clean the pool, tidy the garden etc. He has a lot of clients and also does airport runs, building works etc.
At first I thought he was expensive but he is available at all hours and does all sorts of useful little jobs, even things on my cars so I think it's worth the money for the knowing he's there.
When I moaned about the £600+ extra it cost me to buy euros to pay the rent this quarter because of the exchange rate and hinted that we were considering moving he immediately said he'd talk to the landlord as we were such excellent tenants etc etc


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## Tallulah

Re. your initial question, yes they are....especially those nearest and dearest when I'm whinging on the phone to them!!

The weather however here I can't complain about - it's been gorgeous for a while now so at least it means that I can escape for a few hours from all the bad news on the telly/online and faff around outside in the garden!!

Tallulah.x


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## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> Re. your initial question, yes they are....especially those nearest and dearest when I'm whinging on the phone to them!!
> 
> The weather however here I can't complain about - it's been gorgeous for a while now so at least it means that I can escape for a few hours from all the bad news on the telly/online and faff around outside in the garden!!
> 
> Tallulah.x


I opnly ever get asked about the weather & if the kids are doing well at school

if I try to tell them how bad things are 'crisis' wise here they just say 'well at least you have good weather'


well not at the moment we haven't


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## Tallulah

xabiachica said:


> I opnly ever get asked about the weather & if the kids are doing well at school
> 
> if I try to tell them how bad things are 'crisis' wise here they just say 'well at least you have good weather'
> 
> 
> well not at the moment we haven't


XC...don't you ever go to bed? The time of that post....omg!

I think it's difficult to get it across though sometimes just how bad it is...especially when they mentioned the D word as well. But I guess because it's not exactly a bed of roses over there.....:noidea::juggle:


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## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> XC...don't you ever go to bed? The time of that post....omg!
> 
> I think it's difficult to get it across though sometimes just how bad it is...especially when they mentioned the D word as well. But I guess because it's not exactly a bed of roses over there.....:noidea::juggle:


the thunder's been going all night - I just gave up

I'm usually up at 7 anyway - but dd1 has suspected flu so she's not going to school & I could have had a lie in til 7.30!

D word?

I just don't think they believe that it can be bad at all over here - especially when my db keeps telling them how great it is in Oz - I don't belive him actually


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## mrypg9

I think tv programmes like that'A Place in the Sun' have a lot to answer for. That and the euphoria of holidays with sun, sea etc. 
What's that old saying about the grass being greener....?
I would venture the opinion that if you're finding life hard in the UK you'll find it even harder here.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I would venture the opinion that if you're finding life hard in the UK you'll find it even harder here.


Totally agree with that!!!!!! Ok, so we have nice weather in the summer. BUT, at the moment there is very little work, we dont have extended family (in most cases), we dont speak the language or know the system (in most cases) and there is no welfare state to turn to (in most cases), it is no longer much cheaper to live here. So for anyone thinking of coming to Spain for a "better" life, in 99% of cases it isnt gonna be! 

I love it here, but its a major struggle right now and we're sooooo close to going back to the UK. School fees are crippling, husband in the UK working most of the time so I'm on my own, I cant get a job, weather turning cold and house expensive to heat, so money very tight! As for the school fees, well ok, I could save a fortune if I put the children into state school, but at 12 and 14 what education would they get, how long would it take for them to learn the language well enough to get good results, exams etc.. and then what for them?? All cos mum wanted to live in Spain????

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil

Morning ..... This is the very reason I asked if anyone thought it was a good idea to have a sticky with articles etc on the current recession here - because I dont believe many people in the UK do realise how bad it is here at the moment, or for that matter in the rest of the World!

I have been staggered at the amount of people I talk to in the UK who seem to think Gordon Brown is the only reason the UK is in a mess - and that the global recession simply isnt as bad as the news makes it out to be .... Im not a political animal and certainly not interested in UK politics so please dont take my G Brown reference as support for him!!! cos it aint!!

In my opinion, emigrating anywhere is a really tough road - even with lots of planning and research - the reality (once the novelty of a new Country has worn off) hits home and many people hit the Earth with a bang!!!  If you add the biggest recession to hit this generation into that mix then its a scarey road indeed!

I think with most difficulties we face in life we are helped, supported and use the network of friends and family that a lot of us have to get through it - living in a "foreign" Country you are unlikely to have that support network and therefore any personal or professional crisis can seem insurmountable! 

Good job we have each other on here  at least we can let off some steam and share worries and concerns if we need to.

Sue :ranger:


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## jojo

I hope "would be expats" simply look thru other posts when they find this site and read up on ALL the issues facing them if they were to move over here. At the same time its horrible to spoil dreams, but dreams are what they are - Dreams, which sadly arent usually reality or anything like! 

Jo xx


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## Joppa

Hear hear, wise words indeed from our MODs!
It's the age-old problem of the grass always being greener on the other side, and many people just not realising the downside, as well as the advantages, of moving abroad. I also find that many would-be expats have some personal problems or issues back home which they want to escape from, thinking that moving abroad they can leave all that behind. Wish it were so! The fact is you don't, and you just take your problems with you, and still need to deal with them, perhaps without the support and help of close family and friends, and in a country where you don't speak the language and don't know the ropes. 
Relocating abroad is a major move, and should not be undertaken without the most careful thought and preparation.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Totally agree with that!!!!!! Ok, so we have nice weather in the summer. BUT, at the moment there is very little work, we dont have extended family (in most cases), we dont speak the language or know the system (in most cases) and there is no welfare state to turn to (in most cases), it is no longer much cheaper to live here. So for anyone thinking of coming to Spain for a "better" life, in 99% of cases it isnt gonna be!
> 
> I love it here, but its a major struggle right now and we're sooooo close to going back to the UK. School fees are crippling, husband in the UK working most of the time so I'm on my own, I cant get a job, weather turning cold and house expensive to heat, so money very tight! As for the school fees, well ok, I could save a fortune if I put the children into state school, but at 12 and 14 what education would they get, how long would it take for them to learn the language well enough to get good results, exams etc.. and then what for them?? All cos mum wanted to live in Spain????
> 
> Jo xxx


Things will get better for you, never fear. After all, you have a secure family business and property in the UK. I think you showed courage and enterprise in making the move but you had all the safety mechanisms in place.
We decided we'd worked long enough so sold up,took early retirement and left the UK. Our safety mechanism is one property and diminishing investment capital.
We'd both travelled widely, lived abroad temporarily before and I have worked as an interpreter/translator.
But I don't think I'd have summoned up the -courage? -initiative?-to have taken the plunge and set up overseas before that. Not if it had nvolved finding work, unless I had worked for a Company which sent me outside the UK to work.
There are so many obstacles to overcome, both social, economic and sometimes legal.
When you are hard up in the UK and it's cold and wet it is very tempting to translate memories of summer holidays on the Costas into plans for a new life.
And to be honest it's probably much preferable to be hard up in Benidorm than Barnsley (if that's your taste).
Bbut you would have to learn to do without the many support mechanisms which, although much-maligned, are there for you in the UK.
I wonder if there are statistics showing how many people have packed up and gone back to the UK? There were many news reports about this last year.
That programme 'Spain Paradise Lost' should have made people think twice about a dream life in the sun.


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## Suenneil

Hi M

I couldnt find any upto date or accurate figures for expats returning to the UK, this article is from May this year, and I am confident things have got much worse since then. Its also interesting to note that the UK Foreign Office only added their "Returning to the UK" page to their website a couple of months ago .... it never used to be there!

Sue :ranger:

For many British expats, their dreams of sun, sand and stress free living have finally clouded over and 100’s are returning home to the rat race and cooler shores they were quick to bid “adios” to in happier times.
The low value of the pound to the euro, the collapse of the Spanish construction industry and the global economic crisis, combine to make Britain a more workable option for many expatriates.
Language and cultural differences, endless red tape and almost parity in living costs, means that some ex-pats yearn for the bosom of their motherland, despite the UK’s deepening recession and changes in the social and political landscape.
The sub-tropical climate and laid-back Spanish lifestyle can not conceal the poor state of the Spanish economy any longer.
Ramsey-Douglas, a removals company based in southern Spain, told Digital Journal:

“Even people who we moved here from the UK quite recently (some only 6 months ago) are returning. The vast majority of our enquiries are currently from people going to the UK from Spain, rather than from the UK to Spain.”

The country’s unemployment figure stands at four million; 17% of the working population, which is more than double the European average. The majority of jobs have been lost in the construction and tourism industries, brought about by the financial meltdown which took a real hold last year.
Louise Cant, Director at Hudson Properties in Marbella explained to Digital Journal:
“

The main reason is lack of job opportunities and the need to be able to speak Spanish, which many UK ex pats haven't got to grips with.”
“Those who own properties and who are leaving, tend to be families who are forced to return as they cannot afford school fees.”
“Some are selling at lower than bank valuations, often at 40% reduced prices from the peak valuations of 2 years ago. Others are keeping and renting and those with enough equity in their properties, are able to legally hand the property back to the bank with no legal or monetary penalty

.”
House prices depend very much on what the outstanding debts on the properties are, as some owners are in negative equity and cannot sell for less than they owe the bank. Louise adds:

“As a last resort, some are walking away and facing legal repossession with the prospect of bad debt following them.” She continues: “It is generally apparent that there are huge numbers of ex pats leaving as work is scarce and benefits simply do not exist!”.
No new homes have been built for four months by any major developer.

The British Embassy approximate that around one million Britons reside in Spain for part of the year. Many of them choose to remain officially living in Britain for tax or pension reasons so the British authorities still consider them as British residents.
Julie, from Ramsay Douglas added “Even those who have second homes here and just visit for several months of the year are coming less, as everything effectively costs so much more than it did just a year or so ago.”
The British Embassy has posted advice for those returning to the UK on its website; many retirees who had hoped to spend their autumn years enjoying the lower cost of living and better weather have seen the value of their pensions drop by up to 30% due to the lower value of the pound. They now need to re-apply to gain UK status it would seem.
No official or accurate figures exist for those returning to the darker skies of Blighty. Some might argue that the UK is in fact cheaper when it comes to every day living, and of course, your pound may go further than your euro:
Louise added: “The cost of living in Spain is certainly an issue for those who earn sterling especially the pensioners and also families who have resided here whilst the main earner in the house hold continues to work in the UK.”


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## XTreme

Well I'm doing OK! 

But I ain't your normal knuckle-dragging Brit!

So what can we learn from this?


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## JBODEN

XTreme said:


> Well I'm doing OK!
> 
> But I ain't your normal knuckle-dragging Brit!
> 
> So what can we learn from this?


durr ?!?! amp-e-tait yer l-bows ?


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## steven1975

You're all painting a pretty bleak picture!

Other than the obvious financial effect the current situation is having, has the 'atmosphere' changed in Spain.

I guess the 'holiday' season has now ended, so what is the general feel of the place, does it feel grey and misserable, or are people just getting on with it?

Steven


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## jojo

steven_matthews said:


> You're all painting a pretty bleak picture!
> 
> Other than the obvious financial effect the current situation is having, has the 'atmosphere' changed in Spain.
> 
> I guess the 'holiday' season has now ended, so what is the general feel of the place, does it feel grey and misserable, or are people just getting on with it?
> 
> Steven


Yes, we do seem a miserable bunch dont we!! Sorry! I guess it is partly cos the summer is over and the weather is probably better in the UK at the mo and the sunshine does make eveything seem better!

Things are bad here and it seems that in the last few days the Spanish news seems to be admitting that there are problems here and then theres the exchange rate which is not good if you're funding from the UK.... It doesnt look like its gonna pick up anytime soon either

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil

steven_matthews said:


> You're all painting a pretty bleak picture!
> 
> Other than the obvious financial effect the current situation is having, has the 'atmosphere' changed in Spain.
> 
> I guess the 'holiday' season has now ended, so what is the general feel of the place, does it feel grey and misserable, or are people just getting on with it?
> 
> Steven


Hi Steve

I dont think we intend to paint a bleak picture for the sake of it ..... the real situation here is extremely bad for many people, Spanish and non Spanish. This thread was specifically about the recession in Spain so therefore is unlikely to sound too positive lol 

In general ? I think it depends where you are in Spain and what your lifestlye is - and therefore what contact you have with other people and businesses / entertainment etc.

Where I live in Estepona the "atmosphere" seems no different to us - BUT there are many closed shops now, bars closing, for rent signs everywhere .... so obviously there are difficult times being experienced in the Town. 

When you consider that we have almost 20% unemployment as opposed to 7 - 8% in the UK you can imagine the impact that has! not only in economic terms but in how people view it and feel about it .... I would hazard a guess that a lot of people here in Spain are very worried indeed! This is made worse by all the predictions that Spain will suffer more than most in the EU and for a longer period of time.

BUT I still love it here - I love Estepona - I love the Country......I just hope for a speedy recovery!

Sue


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## xabiaxica

steven_matthews said:


> You're all painting a pretty bleak picture!
> 
> Other than the obvious financial effect the current situation is having, has the 'atmosphere' changed in Spain.
> 
> I guess the 'holiday' season has now ended, so what is the general feel of the place, does it feel grey and misserable, or are people just getting on with it?
> 
> Steven


a lot are just getting on with, but it feels like more are just packing up & going

every day I hear of at least one more business/shop closing in our town - not just 'newish' expats, but some long-established local (spanish) businesses too

in the past 24 hours I have heard of two more British owned shops that will be closing withing the next few weeks - which brings the total to 5 that I've heard of since Friday

my OH had a look at a local 'brit' forum I pop into - most of the businesses advertising there no longer exist


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## steven1975

It's obviously scary times for a lot of people in Spain.

We are comming out in the next couple of weeks to have a good drive around the costas and hopefully speak to expats in the area, I guess we are in a reasonably good position as we don't have to find work when we do eventually come to Spain, however we have changed our mind and decided to rent our UK house rather than sell!

Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to hear from people who are actually living it!


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## Hombre

xabiachica said:


> a lot are just getting on with, but it feels like more are just packing up & going
> 
> every day I hear of at least one more business/shop closing in our town - not just 'newish' expats, but some long-established local (spanish) businesses too
> 
> in the past 24 hours I have heard of two more British owned shops that will be closing withing the next few weeks - which brings the total to 5 that I've heard of since Friday
> 
> my OH had a look at a local 'brit' forum I pop into - most of the businesses advertising there no longer exist


I have just found Mrs H a solid regular job..(she can combine it with the building site one )...a programme seller at the Olympic games !!...we're in the money..we're in the money:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Suenneil

steven_matthews said:


> It's obviously scary times for a lot of people in Spain.
> 
> We are comming out in the next couple of weeks to have a good drive around the costas and hopefully speak to expats in the area, I guess we are in a reasonably good position as we don't have to find work when we do eventually come to Spain, however we have changed our mind and decided to rent our UK house rather than sell!
> 
> Thanks for the replies, it's interesting to hear from people who are actually living it!


Hi Steve

If you dont need to work then your problems are practically non existent  I would certainly advise renting anyway and keeping hold of the UK house if possible. Renting is good for many reasons ..... you can move relatively easily if you decide a cerrain place isnt for you after a few months - and rents are pretty negotiable at this time of year now the tourist season is more or less finished ... and the vast amount of property that is available.

Enjoy your trip! we do smile a lot of the time you know ! 

Sue


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## Suenneil

Hombre said:


> I have just found Mrs H a solid regular job..(she can combine it with the building site one )...a programme seller at the Olympic games !!...we're in the money..we're in the money:clap2::clap2::clap2:


You work her too hard Mr H! Jojo and I may have to arrange a meeting and take Mrs H out for a quiet girlie chat !


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## jojo

We rent our UK house and rent here, it gives you a safety net and a bit of extra income if you get the figures right. However, lets hope the exchange rate picks up a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jo xx


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## jojo

Suenneil said:


> You work her too hard Mr H! Jojo and I may have to arrange a meeting and take Mrs H out for a quiet girlie chat !


I think thats a good idea, I think we could turn her around!!!!!!!


Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

Suenneil said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> If you dont need to work then your problems are practically non existent  I would certainly advise renting anyway and keeping hold of the UK house if possible. Renting is good for many reasons ..... you can move relatively easily if you decide a cerrain place isnt for you after a few months - and rents are pretty negotiable at this time of year now the tourist season is more or less finished ... and the vast amount of property that is available.
> 
> Enjoy your trip! we do smile a lot of the time you know !
> 
> Sue


one good thing - the 'almost completely spanish' town we fell in love with 10 years ago will soon be back as it was then














oh I'm gonna be shot for that!


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## Hombre

jojo said:


> I think thats a good idea, I think we could turn her around!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I tried that this morning..


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## Hombre

The pound is 1% up on the day


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## XTreme

steven_matthews said:


> We are comming out in the next couple of weeks to have a good drive around the costas and hopefully speak to expats in the area,


Be aware that around 90% of the feedback you'll get will be complete and utter cack.

Don't take anything at face value!


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## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> Well I'm doing OK!
> 
> But I ain't your normal knuckle-dragging Brit!
> 
> So what can we learn from this?



That life goes on as normal for many people here, as it would in the UK. 
As I said earlier, we're not looking for work and are more interested in the movement of interest rates and the stock market than the £/euro rate.....for the time being.
We were lucky in that we transferred a lot of dosh into Czech crowns when the exchange rate was 43czk to the £ and then, when it fell a year later to 28czk to the £, used that money to buy euros which we still have. I made the mistake of buying euros last week and lost over 10% on the amount I got for the same amount of £ three months ago. I should have used my horded euros, very stupid of me...
I just wonder if people who consider coming here have really thought it through.
There was a couple on the 'Paradise Lost' programme who remortgaged their house and bought a cafe/bar in Benidorm. Neither had any prior business experience. She worked as a shelf-stacker, he drove a truck. They didn't even know how to tap a beer barrel....
After four unprofitable months, they were thinking of selling the business and going home. The woman said 'this place was on the market for three years before we bought it' and I screamed at the tv, as probably did many other viewers :'Didn't it occur to you to consider why?????'
There must be tens of thousands of bars for sale in Spain. These people had obviously done no market research. They were faced with the problem of getting jobs in the UK to pay off their huge remortgage.
Brains left on the plane.......as the estate agent on the programme said.


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## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> Be aware that around 90% of the feedback you'll get will be complete and utter cack.
> 
> Don't take anything at face value!


Just say it as it is Xtreme lol  and stop mincing your words!


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## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> Be aware that around 90% of the feedback you'll get will be complete and utter cack.
> 
> Don't take anything at face value!



Anyone who is daft enough to plan their lives on the basis of what they hear in the bar or on the beach deserves everything they get....good or bad.


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## jojo

Seems we are a miserble bunch tho doesnt it! Come over and have a look around, yes, talk to people, you sound like an intelligent chap, so listen out for those who have "been there, done that and are roling in it" take it with a pinch of salt, but at the same time, look around and see how things are to you and how things will be for you and your family! You're not looking to make your living here, so it wont matter too much

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

We decided to leave the UK and live in various countries to see where we felt happiest.
We have no plans to leave Spain. We're happy here.
But to make out it's all sunshine and cava would be silly, especially for people with lower incomes or who have to find work.


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## JBODEN

Hombre said:


> The pound is 1% up on the day


Kyero have mailed that the euro was greater than the pound, this week 
? strange? we've been watching it quite closely.


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## jojo

JBODEN said:


> Kyero have mailed that the euro was greater than the pound, this week
> ? strange? we've been watching it quite closely.



I guess it depends on whether you take into account trade commission???? I'm waiting to see if it can leap up to 1.1 today... its close!!!?

Jo xxx


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## steven1975

mrypg9 said:


> Anyone who is daft enough to plan their lives on the basis of what they hear in the bar or on the beach deserves everything they get....good or bad.


Are you saying that 90% of expats will deliberately lie about the place they are living?

I am sensible enough to make an educated decision about where to spend the next 2 - 3 years of my life, however surely such a decision must involve talking to people who live there.

You can only do so much research online, until you actually visit somewhere and get a feel for the area and community surely you cannot make a decision to live there.

Steven


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## jojo

steven_matthews said:


> Are you saying that 90% of expats will deliberately lie about the place they are living?
> 
> I am sensible enough to make an educated decision about where to spend the next 2 - 3 years of my life, however surely such a decision must involve talking to people who live there.
> 
> You can only do so much research online, until you actually visit somewhere and get a feel for the area and community surely you cannot make a decision to live there.
> 
> Steven



I think whats meant Steven, is that a lot of people here in Spain brag (for want of a better word!), there`s no way of knowing, but it doesnt matter really does it! There is also alot of bravado and one upmanship amongst certain types of expat... sorry, I'm sounding snobby!!!!

You sound more like the sort of chap who isnt interested in any of that and is simply looking for a nice place to live with his family ????????????


Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

steven_matthews said:


> Are you saying that 90% of expats will deliberately lie about the place they are living?
> 
> I am sensible enough to make an educated decision about where to spend the next 2 - 3 years of my life, however surely such a decision must involve talking to people who live there.
> 
> You can only do so much research online, until you actually visit somewhere and get a feel for the area and community surely you cannot make a decision to live there.
> 
> Steven


No, of course they don't lie. But every immigrant- because that is what we are -sees things from their own perspective.
Your financial situation plays a huge role in how you feel about your decision to emigrate. If you aren't worried about increases in the euro/£ rate, aren't looking for work, live comfortably in a nice house with pool etc of course you will be happy in Spain or anywhere for that matter.
I am fortunate to fit the above description.
But I spoke recently to two unrelated people here who don't. One is retired on a fixed-income pension, the other owns unsuccessful businesses. They would both dearly like to return to the UK but can't afford to.
So who do you listen to?
When I decided to live outside the UK years ago I made my decision based on many factors but the many and varied opinions of British immigrants did not play a role.
Anyone who relocates based solely on 'on-line research' is, frankly, silly. I can't imagine anyone daft enough to do that. At the end of the day your own sober judgment based on a serious assessment of all the facts, both of your own circumstances and the place you hope to build a new life in, is what will determine success or failure. That assessment should include a long and shrewd look at the everyday realities of the place to which you wish to emigrate.
The opinions of people living there are of interest but should play a small part in your final judgment.
The facts that people living there provide you with are another matter.
But one hundred immigrants, one hundred opinions.


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## mrypg9

But having consulted my bank balance online, I may be joining the ranks of the disgruntled very shortly...
Won't be going home, though.


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## Suenneil

steven_matthews said:


> Are you saying that 90% of expats will deliberately lie about the place they are living?
> 
> I am sensible enough to make an educated decision about where to spend the next 2 - 3 years of my life, however surely such a decision must involve talking to people who live there.
> 
> You can only do so much research online, until you actually visit somewhere and get a feel for the area and community surely you cannot make a decision to live there.
> 
> Steven


Hi Steven

In addition to Jo and Marys comments, I think at the end of the day most sensible people opt for the sensible route and take lots of information and advice into account.

for example if you found a particular area that you liked - you may meet up with expat locals in the area to discuss the merits if living there ...... and I do think that many people are pretty good at judging if they are being conned or not!!! If the local expats appear brash, cocky or arrogant - then that in itself would put me off right away lol ..... but equally you could meet plenty of people who come across as genuine, nice, honest, decent people just like yourself ..... and that helps you to confirm you may well have found a place that suits you as a family.

Lets put it this way - the vast majority of expats on here are genuinely nice, honest, decent people .... and therefore we shouldnt assume that we are the only ones that are !!!!!!! 

Good luck with your research!

Sue :ranger:


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## mrypg9

I think what Jo said is very true. A lot of people who are struggling here don't like to admit it.
There are also a lot of people who are not what they would like to seem to be.
And on the CDS, especially in the Marbella area, a lot of rather unsavoury types.
One of our former neighbours is currently in prison in Eire for major drug trafficking and another neighbour who is a landscape gardener was complaining about immigrant clients who commission work to the value of thousands of euros and don't pay.
As has been said, you make up your own mind.


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> I think what Jo said is very true. A lot of people who are struggling here don't like to admit it.
> There are also a lot of people who are not what they would like to seem to be.
> And on the CDS, especially in the Marbella area, a lot of rather unsavoury types.
> One of our former neighbours is currently in prison in Eire for major drug trafficking and another neighbour who is a landscape gardener was complaining about immigrant clients who commission work to the value of thousands of euros and don't pay.
> As has been said, you make up your own mind.


Hi M

But do you think that the ratio of "unsavoury types" to "decent / honest" people is any higher than it is anywhere else ? Im not disagreeing with you, Im genuinely curious. I just know that living in a biggish City (Sheffield) for many years, there was always a mixture of good, bad, and really nasty types! 

Or is it that because we belong to a smaller population here (UK immigrants) that it highlights it to us more when we come across, or read and hear about such unsavoury types ?

I do agree though that everyone has to make up their own minds. I have to say Im a big believer in tolerance and acceptance, and giving people the benefit of the doubt, and maybe thats a little bit idealistic sometimes .... but in all honesty despite that approach I havent suffered in any way as a result. Despite tolerance / acceptance Im not gullible! 

Sue x


----------



## steven1975

Thanks for all the replies.

We are just looking for a nice place to live, nowhere fancy, just a nice area with nice people.

It's been a dream to move away from the UK for a while and probably for different reasons than most people. I have worked hard building up a business for 17 years and now I am ready to have some time to relax and enjoy some time with my family, at least for a couple of years anyway.

Steven


----------



## Suenneil

steven_matthews said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> We are just looking for a nice place to live, nowhere fancy, just a nice area with nice people.
> 
> It's been a dream to move away from the UK for a while and probably for different reasons than most people. I have worked hard building up a business for 17 years and now I am ready to have some time to relax and enjoy some time with my family, at least for a couple of years anyway.
> 
> Steven



Well good on you Steven! I hope you find somewhere that ticks all the right boxes ... if you end up down Estepona way on your visit my OH and I would be happy to say hi if we are around ..... and we are quite normal honest 

Sue :spit:


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> Hi M
> 
> But do you think that the ratio of "unsavoury types" to "decent / honest" people is any higher than it is anywhere else ? Im not disagreeing with you, Im genuinely curious. I just know that living in a biggish City (Sheffield) for many years, there was always a mixture of good, bad, and really nasty types!
> 
> Or is it that because we belong to a smaller population here (UK immigrants) that it highlights it to us more when we come across, or read and hear about such unsavoury types ?
> 
> I do agree though that everyone has to make up their own minds. I have to say Im a big believer in tolerance and acceptance, and giving people the benefit of the doubt, and maybe thats a little bit idealistic sometimes .... but in all honesty despite that approach I havent suffered in any way as a result. Despite tolerance / acceptance Im not gullible!
> 
> Sue x


No, I don't think the ratio is higher, Sue, but I think that 'unsavoury types' (an all-encompassing description) tend to stand out more here as they tend to congregate in certain spots. Which is good as you know how to avoid them.
People are people everywhere. When we first got here we were cheated quite badly three times -twice by Latin-Americans and Morroccans and once by a fellow Brit. I think it was partly our fault for being innocent, inexperienced, gullible...and not exercising our usual caution.
I would say without hesitation that all the Spaniards we've had dealings with have been delightful. Warm, friendly, helpful, unlike Czechs who in our experience were a miserable, envious bunch of sods.
Quite a coincidence but since arriving here we've met up with three lots of people we knew in the UK -years ago -but didn't know were living here. We met one guy on the beach as we were both walking our dogs the week we got here.
We've made some really nice friends here too and also of course all you great guys online..


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> No, I don't think the ratio is higher, Sue, but I think that 'unsavoury types' (an all-encompassing description) tend to stand out more here as they tend to congregate in certain spots. Which is good as you know how to avoid them.
> People are people everywhere. When we first got here we were cheated quite badly three times -twice by Latin-Americans and Morroccans and once by a fellow Brit. I think it was partly our fault for being innocent, inexperienced, gullible...and not exercising our usual caution.
> I would say without hesitation that all the Spaniards we've had dealings with have been delightful. Warm, friendly, helpful, unlike Czechs who in our experience were a miserable, envious bunch of sods.
> Quite a coincidence but since arriving here we've met up with three lots of people we knew in the UK -years ago -but didn't know were living here. We met one guy on the beach as we were both walking our dogs the week we got here.
> We've made some really nice friends here too and also of course all you great guys online..



I do think its important for us to remember and recognise all the nice, warm, friendly, helpful and "normal" (again an all encompassong word lol) people we know and meet here in Spain ..... its a more balanced opinion....

Although I do like "envious bunch of sods" remark. havent heard a saying like that since I left Yorkshire quite a few years ago 

Sue


----------



## mrypg9

steven_matthews said:


> Thanks for all the replies.
> 
> We are just looking for a nice place to live, nowhere fancy, just a nice area with nice people.
> 
> It's been a dream to move away from the UK for a while and probably for different reasons than most people. I have worked hard building up a business for 17 years and now I am ready to have some time to relax and enjoy some time with my family, at least for a couple of years anyway.
> 
> Steven


Sounds like our reasons. Working 24/7, running a medium-sized company with major-sized worries and headaches.
It's important to find the right place to live. It took us four years after leaving the UK to find the place we intend to settle in permanently.
We first considered Canada where I have family, even bought a place there but decided it was too far to pop home from for the weekend. Then we thought of Amsterdam, as we used to spend a lot of weekends there but property in the only part of the city we could see ourselves living in (Oud Zuid by the Vondelpark) was really expensive -way beyond what we were prepared to pay. Then Prague but the climate and poor living standard (food, public hygiene, service in general) led us to consider seriously my son's suggestion that we should move to the part of Spain where he has property.
We lived in my son's house for a month and knew we'd be happy if we found the right house here.Viva Espana indeed!


----------



## jojo

Inspite of everything, we're really happy here, I may have sounded a bit moserable earlier, but sometimes it does get you down with all the money/exchange rate issues and the economic climate, my husband working away so much...

I love it here, my kids love it here and if we can stay here then we will. It beats being in the UK with al its doom, gloom and miserable weather!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> Although I do like "envious bunch of sods" remark. havent heard a saying like that since I left Yorkshire quite a few years ago
> 
> Sue



A friend of ours bought a new car, a top of the range Skoda. Nothing special for us, perhaps, but a luxury item in the CR. When the family went to their weekend chalet in the mountains, they drove there in an ancient Skoda they had kept as the locals wouldn't have spoken to them in the pub if they had driven the new car. 
When I was told this I was naturally amazed but my friend told me it was quite normal for people to be jealous if someone had something and they didn't.
We did make some lovely friends there, though, and my dear old friend Pavla came over here to stay with us last month.
We've been good friends so long it depresses us as it reinforces our age..


----------



## XTreme

steven_matthews said:


> I am sensible enough to make an educated decision about where to spend the next 2 - 3 years of my life, however surely such a decision must involve talking to people who live there.


If you can find anybody without a hidden agenda and with a brain it is!

You _will_ fing blaggers, bull****ters, bitter failures, con artists, chancers, hucksters, grifters, and various species of Walter Mittys etc etc.

You _will_ hear "The Spanish hate us"....."All the Brits hate us"....."My pension is ******ed"....."The Brit pub has closed"......"I got ripped off"......"I can't get Typhoo" etc etc.

snip!


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> A friend of ours bought a new car, a top of the range Skoda. Nothing special for us, perhaps, but a luxury item in the CR. When the family went to their weekend chalet in the mountains, they drove there in an ancient Skoda they had kept as the locals wouldn't have spoken to them in the pub if they had driven the new car.
> When I was told this I was naturally amazed but my friend told me it was quite normal for people to be jealous if someone had something and they didn't.
> We did make some lovely friends there, though, and my dear old friend Pavla came over here to stay with us last month.
> We've been good friends so long it depresses us as it reinforces our age..


 I have a friend who lives in Sofia, Bulgaria ... and he was telling me how you if a Bulgarian asks you "how are you" "how are things" .. you should never reply "things are good" or worse "things are great"!!!!!! this apparently is seen not only as arrogant - but gives you a 99% chance of being burgled within 48 hours!!!! .... they take the literal meaning of "things are good" as being a sign you are loaded! better apparently to remain negative!

How strange is that!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> If you can find anybody without a hidden agenda and with a brain it is!
> 
> You _will_ fing blaggers, bull****ters, bitter failures, con artists, chancers, hucksters, grifters, and various species of Walter Mittys etc etc.
> 
> You _will_ hear "The Spanish hate us"....."All the Brits hate us"....."My pension is ******ed"....."The Brit pub has closed"......"I got ripped off"......"I can't get Typhoo" etc etc.
> 
> snip!


You obviously mix with the wrong types Xtreme. There are a few like that but you can spot them a mile off and avoid em and dont go to the places they go to!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> If you can find anybody without a hidden agenda and with a brain it is!
> 
> 
> 
> You _will_ fing blaggers, bull****ters, bitter failures, con artists, chancers, hucksters, grifters, and various species of Walter Mittys etc etc.
> 
> You _will_ hear "The Spanish hate us"....."All the Brits hate us"....."My pension is ******ed"....."The Brit pub has closed"......"I got ripped off"......"I can't get Typhoo" etc etc.
> 
> snip!
Click to expand...

Xtreme! sometimes you do go over the bloomin top! I have no hidden agenda and I do have a brain ... the last time I looked!

Sue x


----------



## jojo

Suenneil said:


> Xtreme! sometimes you do go over the bloomin top! I have no hidden agenda and I do have a brain ... the last time I looked!
> 
> Sue x


You and me are the "good guys" Sue!!!!


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> You obviously mix with the wrong types Xtreme. There are a few like that but you can spot them a mile off and avoid em and dont go to the places they go to!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Not everybody's got your sharp brain and eye for detail though Jo! :confused2:


----------



## XTreme

Suenneil said:


> I do have a brain ... the last time I looked!
> 
> Sue x


You looked at your brain Sue?

Do you keep it in a jar at the side of the bed or something?


----------



## Suenneil

XTreme said:


> You looked at your brain Sue?
> 
> Do you keep it in a jar at the side of the bed or something?


I have a three way mirror in my bathroom that allows me to see a full 360 degrees .... therefore I can look through one ear right out the other side .... catching a glimpse of my small brain in the process


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> I have a friend who lives in Sofia, Bulgaria ... and he was telling me how you if a Bulgarian asks you "how are you" "how are things" .. you should never reply "things are good" or worse "things are great"!!!!!! this apparently is seen not only as arrogant - but gives you a 99% chance of being burgled within 48 hours!!!! .... they take the literal meaning of "things are good" as being a sign you are loaded! better apparently to remain negative!
> 
> How strange is that!



It must be a Central/Eastern European thing. If you ask a Czech friend :'How's things?' you'll most likely get the reply: 'Worse than s**t!' I didn't realise it was a kind of burglar deterrent!
Incidentally, a new report just issued on the state of the Spanish housing market says things are picking up...
I didn't download the report as it costs 17 euros.....can think of better things to spend 17 euros on.
Especially as theree'll be a report next week saying how bad things are.
Muchos contadicciones.
Like immigrant opinions.


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## Spanky McSpank

On a personal and positive note. I´m doing fine.


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## Tallulah

LOL!! Well, that's great news, Spanky!!:clap2: It's nice to have a positive post to read - makes us all feel better!!

Tallulah.xx


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## mrypg9

Sorry to return to negative mode - but did anyone else read the article on the prospects for the Spanish economy in yesterday's Daily Telegraph?
Best read with bottle of gin, revolver and sleeping pills beside you...


----------



## Suenneil

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry to return to negative mode - but did anyone else read the article on the prospects for the Spanish economy in yesterday's Daily Telegraph?
> Best read with bottle of gin, revolver and sleeping pills beside you...


I think someone else posted a link to that report on another thread ... if its the same one it does make for depressing reading! however, I did see the article in the UK press and there were many comments as to the validity and balance of its opinion due to the beliefs and political leanings of the author!!!

Sue


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## sandiewk

Interesting article from the Daily Telegraph 24th September.


Spain tips into depression
Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression with unemployment approaching levels not seen since the Second Republic of the 1930s and little chance of recovery until well into the next decade, according to a clutch of reports over recent days. 


Bull run is over: Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression akin to that seen in the 1930s Photo: AP The Madrid research group RR de Acuña & Asociados said the collapse of Spain's building industry will cause the economy to contract for the next three years, with a peak to trough loss of over 11pc of GDP. The grim forecast is starkly at odds with claims by premier Jose Luis Zapatero, who still says Spain's recession will be milder than elsewhere in Europe. 

RR de Acuña said the overhang of unsold properties on the market, or still being built, has reached 1,623,000 . This dwarfs annual demand of 218,000, and will take six or seven years to clear. The group said Spain's unemployment will peak at around 25pc, comparable to the worst chapter of the Great Depression. 


UK unemployment expected to have risenSpanish workers typically receive 50pc to 60pc of their former pay for eighteen months after losing their job. Then the guillotine falls. Spain's parliament has rushed through a law guaranteeing €420 a month for long-term unemployed, but this will not prevent a social crisis if the slump drags on. 

Separately, UBS said unemployment will reach 4.8m and may go as high as 5.4m if the job purge in the service sector gathers pace. There is the growing risk of a "Lost Decade" akin to Japan's malaise after the Nikkei bubble. 

Roberto Ruiz, the bank's Spain strategist, said salaries must fall by 10pc in real terms to regain lost competitiveness, replicating the sort of wage squeeze seen in Germany after reunification. 

There is no sign yet that either Spanish trade unions or the Zapatero government are ready for such draconian measures. Talks between the unions and Spain's industry federation (CEOE) broke down in acrimony in July. 

Mr Ruiz said the construction sector will shrink from 18pc of GDP at the peak of the boom to around 5pc, making it unlikely that there will be any significant recovery before 2012. Even then growth will be "slow, weak, and fragile". 

The Spanish government can do little to cushion the downturn. "The room for manouvre in fiscal policy has been exhausted," said Mr Ruiz. 

The rocketing cost of jobless benefits has added 3pc of GDP to the budget deficit. Mr Zapatero has ordered all ministries to cut 8pc of discretionary spending to help plug the gap left by collapsing tax revenues. The axe is likely to fall on research and big projects such as high-speed railways. 

The root cause of Spain's trouble is that it joined monetary union before its economy was ready. EMU halved Spanish interest rates almost overnight. Real rates were minus 2pc for much of this decade. Combined private and corporate debt reached 230pc of GDP, funded by French and German savings. 

The credit boom masked a steady decline in productivity over the last decade. Spain's unit labour costs have risen by about 30pc compared to Germany. 

The Bank of Spain made heroic efforts to counter the effects of the bubble by forcing banks to put aside extra reserves, known as dynamic provisioning, but the sheer scale of the problem has washed over the defences. 

Spain no longer has the escape valve of devaluation to claw back market share. It cannot resort to emergency monetary stimulus – as Switzerland, Britain, the US, and Japan are doing to prevent the onset of debt deflation. Prices are already falling at a rate of 1.2pc. 

Jamie Dannhauser from Lombard Street Research said Spain is bearing the full brunt of the European Central Bank's restrictive monetary policy, which has caused private sector credit in the eurozone to shrink over the last six months. 

The latest ECB data shows that 60pc of Spanish firms have seen access to credit fall so far this year. Most say they have been denied their full request for loans or credit lines. 

Mr Dannhauser said Spain faces the same sort of boom-bust headache as Britain. The big difference is that Spain cannot let the exchange rate take the strain. "It is going to be very hard for them to sort this out in a currency union." 

For the time being, an odd calm prevails across the Iberian peninsular. There are no street riots, even though youth unemployment has reached 38pc. It is hard to imagine anything like the bloody uprising by Asturian miners in 1934, the last time so many people were without jobs. 

Local communities have started to issue scrip currency known as "moneda social", based on reflation experiments tried by Austrian cantons in 1932 and more recently by Argentina. Yet few blame the crisis on the effects of the euro. There is a near total backing for EMU, in contrast to France and Germany where a small but vocal minority has never accepted the wisdom of Europe's one-size-fits-all system. 

Membership of the EU and the euro is inextracably linked in Spain's collective mind to the country's re-emergence as a modern, dynamic European power after the stultifying isolation of the Franco dictatorship. It would take a major trauma to test that bond.


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## Suenneil

Hi Sandie
This is the report other people have referred to - and yes it is the one I read comments on in the UK media yesterday suggesting that the author of the report/article is not that well thought of in terms of his opinions re Spain and the EU ..... apparently he has written many scathing articles on Spain previously.

Im hoping it is a digruntled Author making things sound worse than they are ! I cant begin to contemplate the alternative!

Sue :ranger:


----------



## mrypg9

Suenneil said:


> I think someone else posted a link to that report on another thread ... if its the same one it does make for depressing reading! however, I did see the article in the UK press and there were many comments as to the validity and balance of its opinion due to the beliefs and political leanings of the author!!!
> 
> Sue


Well, yes, I take what I read in the Telegraph, Mail etc with a huge pinch of salt, as I would with the Morning Star!
But the quotes are from solid sources - UBS, Spanish Government and so on.
It does seem to fit in with the economic facts as we know them.
Our maintenance man said something about employees in the Spanish Tax offices going on strike soon. Have you heard anything about that?


----------



## mrypg9

Hmm....have just done some quick research on the author, Ambrose Pritchard-Evans, and he does seem to be a right-wing anti-EU UKIP type.
He has written for right-wing US publications dishing dirt on the Clintons and flagging up conspiracy theories about the Oklahoma bombing. (It was the FBI wot dun it).
But I think the general thrust of his carticle is valid as facts and figures seem to accord with his assertions .
Not even right-wing conspiracy theory nut-jobs are wrong all the time


----------



## Suenneil

Hi M

I havent seen anything about the tax offices going on strike - but that doesnt mean they arent 

I get a Spanish Business Review online via another site each day which is usually pretty up todate .... I will keep my eyes open for any such information. Its where I got the health index info from.

Sue


----------



## Whitehouse

Hi there

I don't post on this forum very often but couldn't help reading this thread and had to make one or two observations.

We have a property on the Costa Blanca which we have had for 5 years. We were going to move to Spain but now we are having serious misgivings about the whole project now that the prices in Spain have rocketed. 

What I would say is that during the last couple or so years when the UK started to enter the recession, I believe the UK soon came to terms with the fact that we were heading for a bumpy ride for a few years and it was a case of knuckle down, cut your spending, accept your pay freezes (be glad you had a job) and hold on for dear life. Around us here prices have fallen now on many things, and I mean on everything like clothes, houses, cars, all except utility bills, some foods in the supermarkets like meat, and taxes in general which have appeared to keep going up, petrol too and it has been really tight trying to survive. 

The main difference here is that businesses have had to accept the fact that they either cut their costs, their prices of goods, entertaining, cars, and all luxury goods or go out of business and this has been ongoing now for two years I would say.

During that time we have still managed to visit our property on the CB but although we read that Spain is going through a recession all the reports and from what we have seen is a country in denial. The last two years we have visited we have noticed that prices in pubs, restaurants and everything else seems to keep going up and up with no regard to ability to pay. Our salary rates in the UK have continued to drop or be fixed, mainly due to immigration which has flooded our job market and driven wage rates down which has been easy for companies to do as they have a market where hundreds of people are chasing even the most menial jobs. So wages here have dropped and so have many prices, but in Spain the opposite seems true that wage rates have dropped and jobs disappeared but prices do not seem to have dropped with them. Our utility bills in Spain have continued to go up each year, as in the UK but when we visit we cannot afford to go out and socialise and hiring a car has become a bit of a joke of late.

Then we read that Spanish politicians like Zapatero is still living in a dream world saying that Spain will come out of the recession easier than the rest of Europe, how does he reckon to that when reports are indicating that unemployment could hit 5 million. Perhaps he hasn't the use of a calculator ! 

He is living in a fools' paradise. We have our apartment on the market in Spain and after 5 years have been told we will not get back what we paid for it back then. We have little hope of selling and even if we sell at a huge loss may end up having to use savings to pay off our UK mortgage when we retire next year 

Until Spain wakes up to the fact that their prices have to fall drastically to bring business back into the country they will have no chance of a fast recovery.

We do have a welfare state here but even that is breaking under the strain of so many out of work and more will follow before the country even starts to get out of debt.

The only businesses that survive here are the ones that chase the business that is available and are competitive. We have a pub round the corner from us that offers meals and is a Sports Bar. All the kids go there, you can get a steak and a pint for £3.99 on one night a week when this year in Spain we had to pay 14 euros for a steak in our local village, and meals in the local restaurant were set menus of 25 euros per head!!!!). Curry nights too at our local here offer specials of £3.99 for a curry and a pint. It is always packed. All the rest of the meals are very reasonable and we often go there but this is by no means the exception. Many pubs here now offer a pint of lager for £1 or just over (Wetherspoons). We are paying 3 euros in Spain (almost £3).

We are chasing every penny in the UK now and making savings where we can so that we can still enjoy our breaks in the sun but the time is fast approaching when even that will be unaffordable due to rising prices in the cost of living in Spain. I really feel for the expats in Spain now but can Spain really afford to snub their noses at the tourists indefinitely ! 

This is a world recession but the only way to survive is to be realistic about it and accept that Spain is no longer the No. 1 choice for tourists or property buyers. Spanish politicians need a reality check !


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Whitehouse said:


> Hi there
> 
> I don't post on this forum very often but couldn't help reading this thread and had to make one or two observations.
> 
> We have a property on the Costa Blanca which we have had for 5 years. We were going to move to Spain but now we are having serious misgivings about the whole project now that the prices in Spain have rocketed.
> 
> What I would say is that during the last couple or so years when the UK started to enter the recession, I believe the UK soon came to terms with the fact that we were heading for a bumpy ride for a few years and it was a case of knuckle down, cut your spending, accept your pay freezes (be glad you had a job) and hold on for dear life.
> The main difference here is that businesses have had to accept the fact that they either cut their costs, their prices of goods, entertaining, cars, and all luxury goods or go out of business
> During that time we have still managed to visit our property on the CB but although we read that Spain is going through a recession all the reports and from what we have seen is a country in denial. The last two years we have visited we have noticed that prices in pubs, restaurants and everything else seems to keep going up and up with no regard to ability to pay.
> 
> We have our apartment on the market in Spain and after 5 years have been told we will not get back what we paid for it back then. We have little hope of selling and even if we sell at a huge loss may end up having to use savings to pay off our UK mortgage when we retire next year
> 
> Until Spain wakes up to the fact that their prices have to fall drastically to bring business back into the country they will have no chance of a fast recovery.
> 
> We do have a welfare state here but even that is breaking under the strain of so many out of work and more will follow before the country even starts to get out of debt.
> 
> The only businesses that survive here are the ones that chase the business that is available and are competitive. We have a pub round the corner from us that offers meals and is a Sports Bar. All the kids go there, you can get a steak and a pint for £3.99 on one night a week when this year in Spain we had to pay 14 euros for a steak in our local village, and meals in the local restaurant were set menus of 25 euros per head!!!!). Curry nights too at our local here offer specials of £3.99 for a curry and a pint. It is always packed. All the rest of the meals are very reasonable and we often go there but this is by no means the exception. Many pubs here now offer a pint of lager for £1 or just over (Wetherspoons). We are paying 3 euros in Spain (almost £3).
> 
> . I really feel for the expats in Spain now but can Spain really afford to snub their noses at the tourists indefinitely !
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting post, thanks for taking the time to write that, although I get the feeling you were getting things off your chest at the same time :tongue1: I'm sorry things aren't working out for you in Spain. If there was any way you could hold on to your property for the moment and sell later on you'd probably get a better deal, wouldn't you??
> 
> A lot of what you say about prices is true; I think prices have continued to go up and up and people have a hard time realising they can't buy the latest mobile, DS Nintendo etc . A lot of that is IMO to do with the fact that Spain had been on such a roll for such a long time. Things just got better and better for the Spanish - until now. That's something I hadn't been aware of in England, a feeling of things are going well here, people live well - it's not something I felt or feel in England.
> 
> As far as food prices go, I can only talk about my own experience. During the summer we ate out every day practically as we had no kitchen. There were menus del día for 10 - 12 euros, 3 simple courses, but with a choice of 4 starters and 4 main courses, them fruit, ice cream or coffee. I've had meals in pubs in England for 3 pounds and they were revolting. I've also had meals for about 6 - 8 pounds (one course mind) and they were nice.
> 
> As for the welfare state. My BIL was told he'd have to wait more than 3 weeks to get an appointment with the same doctor he saw on his first visit. Here I can get an appointment for the next day usually - not always, but usually.
> 
> Conclusion - there are pros and cons wherever you are.
> 
> PS I don't think Spain is snubbing it's nose at tourists...


----------



## Hombre

I don't think comparisons of pints of beer or pub meals gives us a true indication of the economic differences between two countries. Perhaps if more consumer goods were brought into the equation then we could arrive at a more definitive profile.
I don't see any evidence that Spain is taking the situation lightly. Around here they are breaking their backs to stimulate the local economy.Normally the town is very quiet this time of year , but it's the busiest it's been since we've been here.
Generally , we feel prices have reduced slightly and the shops are full of promotions and incentives etc.


----------



## Tallulah

Did anyone catch on the news what was being said in Manchester by the Conservative Shadow Chancellor yesterday? It's just as bad there future wise. Trade unions are up in arms and the truly appalling scenario for those whose intention it was to retire early or at 65....apparently it's everyone's responsibility to drag the country out of the crisis - when are they and the banks going to take responsibility (ridiculous bail outs that are crippling the economy), instead of leaving it down to struggling, hardworking citizens who are barely scraping by as it is??? Just makes me so mad...


----------



## Suenneil

I dont have enough information or insight into the Government here in Spain to comment on how seriously, or not, the politicians are taking the crisis - and how realistic they are being .... and obviously how this is then reported to the general population.

What I am seeing every day is individual businesses doing their own bit to try and stay afloat .... and at the same time help their customers.

Carrefour for example in Estepona has over the past few months increased massively their 3 for 2 items on offer , bulk purchase price offers, and general discounting on staple items.

Local restaurants and bars are offering "crisis menus" (yes they are calling them this!!) .... offering a drink and tapas for a couple of euros .....full meals at much reduced prices.

I know that businesses will have to do this to survive - but it does have the knock on affect of helping customers too and getting people through the doors,

We do need the politicians obviously to get their act together - but it also takes every individual to play their own part in it too .....

Sue lane:


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Did anyone catch on the news what was being said in Manchester by the Conservative Shadow Chancellor yesterday? It's just as bad there future wise. Trade unions are up in arms and the truly appalling scenario for those whose intention it was to retire early or at 65....apparently it's everyone's responsibility to drag the country out of the crisis - when are they and the banks going to take responsibility (ridiculous bail outs that are crippling the economy), instead of leaving it down to struggling, hardworking citizens who are barely scraping by as it is??? Just makes me so mad...



TOP TIP: Do not watch the British news! Its biased, sensationalist, a half empty glass and depressing!


Jo xxx


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## JBODEN

[...when are they and the banks going to take responsibility (ridiculous bail outs that are crippling the economy), instead of leaving it down to struggling, hardworking citizens who are barely scraping by as it is???...]

The Government bails out the Banks with taxpayers' money. The Banks then increase commission charges and widen the spread on interest rates. Thus the taxpayer gets hit a second time. Oh ... and then (the *!ankers) they vote themselves HUGH bonuses. Funny old world, innit!


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## Suenneil

*Corte Ingles store in Murcia*

Hiya ...

I have just read an article in the Spanish press today stating that 16,000 yes sixteen thousand people have applied for 500 (five hundred) jobs that have been advertised this past week for the new Corte Ingles store opening soon in Murcia ..

mmmmmmmmm as Im writing this though Im thinking, actually thats only (grabs the calculator quickly!!!) 32 applicants per post .... which I suppose it pretty standard rather than excessive ???

Sue :ranger:


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## Whitehouse

I realise that the examples I have quoted of prices here and in Spain is only a snapshot of what we see when we visit Spain. However the comments I made about Spanish politicians who wear rose tinted glasses is taken from the Spanish Property Insight Reports that I get every month which gives up to date reports on the property market and comments made by Spanish government officials about the state of the economy, banking, and property markets. There seems to be a consensus on the site that Spanish politicians are walking around with their heads in the clouds and trying to "talk down" how serious things are in Spain. Even Spanish property prices are still highly inflated and seem to be selling 20% below the asking price but still the reports from government Spanish property articles report prices falling by some 11 or 12%. The statistics quoted by the government do not seem to be borne out by other property estate agents who actually SELL the properties and record the trends like Kyero.com. 

Serious thing to do when you are tinkering with a country's economy. I read that they refuse to pump money into the Spanish economy and have decided instead to let the country ride it out which other highly prominent economists have commented on saying that this is only delaying the inevitable and will cause rampant inflation and even higher unemployment later. They also appear to be hanging on to high interest rates which helps no-one with mortgages, paying for essentials and cost of materials, etc. When my brother visited recently he wanted to hire a car and as they like the convenience of travelling around whilst there ended up paying 620 euros for 2 weeks for a standard saloon not including petrol or extra insurance added. Absolutely extortionate price! No way would I have paid that. Their excuse was that the banks would not lend them money to buy new vehicles to replace part of their fleet of cars. On the other hand here in the UK prices of cars, white goods and luxury goods generally are very cheap now and of course the government did introduce a scrappage scheme to get the car industry moving again. 

From the messages I read on one or two Spanish forums some expats are really in a pickle in Spain as the safety nets are not there to catch people who cannot afford to pay their way and this is a shame as I feel for them wanting to stay there. As for ourselves and selling our apartment there, we can afford to wait a year or two and if there are no signs the property market is improving, we will rent it out for a while to cover costs.

I agree things are bad here in the UK and no doubt will get worse before they get better, mainly due to Gordon Brown who also liked to walk around telling the British people everything was rosy when in fact next year we will have borrowed twice as much as in 1976 (some £2 trillion in 2010 if the experts are right which could bankrupt the country) when the UK nearly went bankrupt back then and the then Prime Mininster, went cap in hand to the IMF for a bail out. We have 2.5 million out of work here and as I say we are far from out of the woods but at least people here and the Conservative Government if they win the election (which I have no doubt they will) acknowledge this and are trying to do something about getting the country out of this mess which won't be easy. The measures they want to take will not be popular but the medicine is short and sharp and hopefully will get us out of this mess sooner rather than much, much later.

Good Luck to you all there and enjoy the sunshine, I hear it is in the 80's at the moment. Must say I am looking forward to my visit there next week


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## tweety5

If you want to see bad take a trip down to playa flamenca commercial centre in the middle of winter!! We have just returned to live in the uk after living in this area for 8 years. Eight years is not by choice i can tell you, we couldnt sell our house and was trapped.for eight years we went from job to job, most of the time our employers sold up and went back home, some done a runner, whatever, we have never been able to find a regular job,yes programs like house in the sun ect have a lot to answer for, they dont tell it like it really is!. Its all very well having lovely weather, its no good if you have no money to spend.the houses in winter are freezing! We are so glad to be back in the uk, its not paradise but it sure beats spain


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## JBODEN

[.. ridiculous bail outs that are crippling the economy..]
If they had let the Banks go under them a HUGH number of people would lost their life savings ( -and would they have moaned? of course they would have!). So a bail out was probably the lesser of 2 evils.


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## JBODEN

[... the government did introduce a scrappage scheme to get the car industry moving again...]

I can't understand what the Gov wanted to achieve with this scheme. GBP 400 million budget @ GBP 2000 per vehicle equates to 200,000 vehicles being subsidised. That's the equivalent of one months' sales.


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## jojo

tweety5 said:


> If you want to see bad take a trip down to playa flamenca commercial centre in the middle of winter!! We have just returned to live in the uk after living in this area for 8 years. Eight years is not by choice i can tell you, we couldnt sell our house and was trapped.for eight years we went from job to job, most of the time our employers sold up and went back home, some done a runner, whatever, we have never been able to find a regular job,yes programs like house in the sun ect have a lot to answer for, they dont tell it like it really is!. Its all very well having lovely weather, its no good if you have no money to spend.the houses in winter are freezing! We are so glad to be back in the uk, its not paradise but it sure beats spain



Some friends of mine have just returned to the UK after being here 8 years. It took them 2 years to sell their house and they had to drop the price significantly, but they still made enough money so that they'll never have to work again (they're late 40s). I think they're going thru a period of adjustment now they're back in the UK, cos I dont think they think its better there, but its early days yet for them, they've only been back a couple of months! They went back because their daughter wanted to go to college in the UK

Jo xx


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## Whitehouse

jojo said:


> Some friends of mine have just returned to the UK after being here 8 years. It took them 2 years to sell their house and they had to drop the price significantly, but they still made enough money so that they'll never have to work again (they're late 40s). I think they're going thru a period of adjustment now they're back in the UK, cos I dont think they think its better there, but its early days yet for them, they've only been back a couple of months! They went back because their daughter wanted to go to college in the UK
> 
> Jo xx


If your friends have been in Spain for 8 years they will find the UK a far different place to the place they left. I think the last 8-10 years has changed the UK from all recognition to the place I grew up in. The whole culture, population demographics, economy, political correctness (which has turned the country topsy turvy), crime out of control, many young people out of control, may prove too much for them. I have known a few people come back to the UK and realise they have made a big mistake and return to Spain. 

It depends what you want I suppose. I guess if you are coming back for practical reasons - out of cash, no job etc. other considerations are secondary. 

Your friend may find that the sacrifice they have made for their daughter's college may be too high a price to pay ! Who knows.


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## jojo

Whitehouse said:


> If your friends have been in Spain for 8 years they will find the UK a far different place to the place they left. I think the last 8-10 years has changed the UK from all recognition to the place I grew up in. The whole culture, population demographics, economy, political correctness (which has turned the country topsy turvy), crime out of control, many young people out of control, may prove too much for them. I have known a few people come back to the UK and realise they have made a big mistake and return to Spain.
> 
> It depends what you want I suppose. I guess if you are coming back for practical reasons - out of cash, no job etc. other considerations are secondary.
> 
> Your friend may find that the sacrifice they have made for their daughter's college may be too high a price to pay ! Who knows.



Hhhmm, I'm not sure they've done the right thing, but they were gonna have to pay for their daughter to go to college here, she gets a grant, travel allowance and free education over there - ligitimately too apparently! I'm not sure I understand why they all went back, he had a job over here and she had some seasonal cleaning work, they seemed really settled??? - but they've done it now and at the moment are househunting over there. They hope to buy a small apartment over here again in the future

Jo xx


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## Tallulah

JBODEN said:


> [.. ridiculous bail outs that are crippling the economy..]
> If they had let the Banks go under them a HUGH number of people would lost their life savings ( -and would they have moaned? of course they would have!). So a bail out was probably the lesser of 2 evils.


I'm afraid it's much bigger than that. Maybe now, people in "the west" will realise what old Russia, China, Middle East meant by the capitalist states. 

The West is completely reliant on "the economy". Without "the economy" there is no West as we know it. Therefore, when they were talking about financial collapse after Lehman Bros, they were actually saying potentially, the end of the West as we know it. Banks have been receiving HUGE amounts of money from governments. They have been using that money to balance their books in order to get themselves "healthy" before even attempting to make the rest of us healthy. They, like the Gripe A frontline medical and administration staff who were always going to get the jab first, even if no-one else did, must be healthy if we are ever to get a chance to get back to a healthy, capitalist society. Lest we forget, it's not just Lehman that caused this - the real fright in my mind was when AIG, the biggest insurance company in the world, needed urgent government bail out before they went bust. Imagine, your banks are not safe and all that money you've paid on insurance isn't worth a damn. Let's face it, whilst we rely on "the banks" as a way of life, it's going to take a lot more than their large bonuses for western governments to rock their boats too much. 

Taking one line - again - from my original post is therefore slightly out of context and will take a long time to finish this thread!!  Sure, it is the lesser of two evils, but the big evil isn't to not prop up the banks, it's to let western way of life, democracy, capitalism etc go to hell and either impose marshall law or start a communist regime! Let's not forget, that even in the great depression, although they took a hell of a lot longer about it, capitalist tools "propping up" were still used - only then they took way too long, hence the consequences. Let's hope this time they did it quick enough and let's not forget until the government money effects run out (any time soon now) we won't actually know if we're out of this or not. There has been talk of a second, much larger wave once those artificial props are removed. Let's hope those people saying that are wrong, for all our sakes.


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## Whitehouse

Tallulah said:


> I'm afraid it's much bigger than that. Maybe now, people in "the west" will realise what old Russia, China, Middle East meant by the capitalist states.
> 
> The West is completely reliant on "the economy". Without "the economy" there is no West as we know it. Therefore, when they were talking about financial collapse after Lehman Bros, they were actually saying potentially, the end of the West as we know it. Banks have been receiving HUGE amounts of money from governments. They have been using that money to balance their books in order to get themselves "healthy" before even attempting to make the rest of us healthy. They, like the Gripe A frontline medical and administration staff who were always going to get the jab first, even if no-one else did, must be healthy if we are ever to get a chance to get back to a healthy, capitalist society. Lest we forget, it's not just Lehman that caused this - the real fright in my mind was when AIG, the biggest insurance company in the world, needed urgent government bail out before they went bust. Imagine, your banks are not safe and all that money you've paid on insurance isn't worth a damn. Let's face it, whilst we rely on "the banks" as a way of life, it's going to take a lot more than their large bonuses for western governments to rock their boats too much.
> 
> Taking one line - again - from my original post is therefore slightly out of context and will take a long time to finish this thread!!  Sure, it is the lesser of two evils, but the big evil isn't to not prop up the banks, it's to let western way of life, democracy, capitalism etc go to hell and either impose marshall law or start a communist regime! Let's not forget, that even in the great depression, although they took a hell of a lot longer about it, capitalist tools "propping up" were still used - only then they took way too long, hence the consequences. Let's hope this time they did it quick enough and let's not forget until the government money effects run out (any time soon now) we won't actually know if we're out of this or not. There has been talk of a second, much larger wave once those artificial props are removed. Let's hope those people saying that are wrong, for all our sakes.


The thing that most annoys me about the present situation (with the exception of the bankers who I feel should be hung, drawn and quartered ! ), is that the people who are honest and hardworking are going to be the people hardest hit, by more taxation, loss of jobs, etc. Under a socialist system as has always been the case here, the people on benefits don't see any difference and those with loads of kids continue claiming, don't take a loss or cut in benefits whilst they are entitled and just ask for more help when the bills increase.

The taxpayers are left every time to pick up the bill for the government's and the risk takers' mistakes .


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Whitehouse said:


> I realise that the examples I have quoted of prices here and in Spain is only a snapshot of what we see when we visit Spain. However the comments I made about Spanish politicians who wear rose tinted glasses is taken from the Spanish Property Insight Reports that I get every month which gives up to date reports on the property market and comments made by Spanish government officials about the state of the economy, banking, and property markets. There seems to be a consensus on the site that Spanish politicians are walking around with their heads in the clouds and trying to "talk down" how serious things are in Spain. Even Spanish property prices are still highly inflated and seem to be selling 20% below the asking price but still the reports from government Spanish property articles report prices falling by some 11 or 12%. The statistics quoted by the government do not seem to be borne out by other property estate agents who actually SELL the properties and record the trends like Kyero.com.
> 
> Serious thing to do when you are tinkering with a country's economy. I read that they refuse to pump money into the Spanish economy and have decided instead to let the country ride it out which other highly prominent economists have commented on saying that this is only delaying the inevitable and will cause rampant inflation and even higher unemployment later. They also appear to be hanging on to high interest rates which helps no-one with mortgages, paying for essentials and cost of materials, etc. When my brother visited recently he wanted to hire a car and as they like the convenience of travelling around whilst there ended up paying 620 euros for 2 weeks for a standard saloon not including petrol or extra insurance added. Absolutely extortionate price! No way would I have paid that. Their excuse was that the banks would not lend them money to buy new vehicles to replace part of their fleet of cars. On the other hand here in the UK prices of cars, white goods and luxury goods generally are very cheap now and of course the government did introduce a scrappage scheme to get the car industry moving again.
> 
> From the messages I read on one or two Spanish forums some expats are really in a pickle in Spain as the safety nets are not there to catch people who cannot afford to pay their way and this is a shame as I feel for them wanting to stay there. As for ourselves and selling our apartment there, we can afford to wait a year or two and if there are no signs the property market is improving, we will rent it out for a while to cover costs.
> 
> I agree things are bad here in the UK and no doubt will get worse before they get better, mainly due to Gordon Brown who also liked to walk around telling the British people everything was rosy when in fact next year we will have borrowed twice as much as in 1976 (some £2 trillion in 2010 if the experts are right which could bankrupt the country) when the UK nearly went bankrupt back then and the then Prime Mininster, went cap in hand to the IMF for a bail out. We have 2.5 million out of work here and as I say we are far from out of the woods but at least people here and the Conservative Government if they win the election (which I have no doubt they will) acknowledge this and are trying to do something about getting the country out of this mess which won't be easy. The measures they want to take will not be popular but the medicine is short and sharp and hopefully will get us out of this mess sooner rather than much, much later.
> 
> Good Luck to you all there and enjoy the sunshine, I hear it is in the 80's at the moment. Must say I am looking forward to my visit there next week


 

I am amazed at the prices you are quoting

25€ for a set menu (in a previous post) It's possible, but usually it's an up market place with a rather special menu, isn't it?
620€ 2 weeks car hire
3€ a beer
I had no idea the Costa blanca was so dear. Is the choice very limited where you are? Is there no way to shop around?
If you moved to a different part of Spain you might find you could afford to stay. Those are not the prices that I find here and I'm quite close to Madrid!

As far as the politics go I don't pretend to understand it, but I do know there's no point in blaming Zapatero, or Brown, Bush or Obama because it would have happened whoever was in power. The idea of manufacturing more and more "stuff" that people have to buy in bigger and bigger quantities to keep the wheels rolling just doesn't do it any more, but is anybody important enough going to listen and think about the future and try to change the economic stance of any of the big players?? Of course not. So every few decades we have another Crisis and round we go again. It's not going to change


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am amazed at the prices you are quoting
> 
> 25€ for a set menu (in a previous post) It's possible, but usually it's an up market place with a rather special menu, isn't it
> 620€ 2 weeks car hire
> 3€ a beer
> I had no idea the Costa blanca was so dear. Is the choice very limited where you are? Is there no way to shop around?
> If you moved to a different part of Spain you might find you could afford to stay. Those are not the prices that I find here and I'm quite close to Madrid!


 I thought we were dear in the Costa del Sol, but even the expensive tourist bars sell beer at 2 -2,50€, a fairly expensive restaurant up the road from here does menu del dia for 11€, altho most are about 7 - 8€s and my nephew came out a couple of weeks ago, admittedly off season and hired a car for 75€ for a week. 

Actually thats made me feel better (I think), I've often been lead to believe that we paid far more here. 

Jo xx


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## SteveHall

The rental prices in the summer were a "blip". They are now back to sensible. The next problem will be Christmas/New Year. There is absolutely no chance of many agencies being able to cope. Reserve now with a company you trust soonest would be my advice.


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## JBODEN

[... even in the great depression ... ]

Capitalism has been fashionable from the day some wise guy thought up the word 'barter'. 
Communism is too idealist to work. 
During the Great Depression there was no such thing as email/internet/global village/etc. Now the world leaders can communicate with each other v. quickly and coordinate global economic policies. 
:boxing::boxing::boxing:What are we talking about? We have been brain-washed! We are bombarded with 'spins' about investments and high returns. We are taught that in order to make money we have to 'leverage'. We are told that we have to get on the housing ladder because it a secure investment and that it will increase in value and that when we retire we can downsize and live comfortably, to our dying days, off of the released capital gain. We have been fed what we want to believe. In essence our GREED has got the better of us. South Sea Bubble, Ponzi schemes, you name it, we invested in it. Now the question is who really is to blame?
If you are overweight and have health problems who's fault is it, yours or the food producers? If you smoke and get cancer who's fault is it, yours or the manufacturers? If you believe the invetment 'spin' who's fault is it, yours for being so gullible or the spin doctors'?:boxing::boxing::boxing:
PS: I'm no saint. I, too, want a ferrari!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am amazed at the prices you are quoting
> 
> 25€ for a set menu (in a previous post) It's possible, but usually it's an up market place with a rather special menu, isn't it?
> 620€ 2 weeks car hire
> 3€ a beer
> I had no idea the Costa blanca was so dear. Is the choice very limited where you are? Is there no way to shop around?
> If you moved to a different part of Spain you might find you could afford to stay. Those are not the prices that I find here and I'm quite close to Madrid!
> 
> As far as the politics go I don't pretend to understand it, but I do know there's no point in blaming Zapatero, or Brown, Bush or Obama because it would have happened whoever was in power. The idea of manufacturing more and more "stuff" that people have to buy in bigger and bigger quantities to keep the wheels rolling just doesn't do it any more, but is anybody important enough going to listen and think about the future and try to change the economic stance of any of the big players?? Of course not. So every few decades we have another Crisis and round we go again. It's not going to change


I'm on the Costa Blanca


8 euro is more common for a set menu in my town - you can actually get menu del dia for as little as 5 euro

25 euro would indeed be in a 'special' restaurant

car hire - here's a link for a local company
Prices Rent a Car - Winter - Summer

it's still officially 'summer' but you can hire a car from 390 euro for 2 weeks

beer - you can get a beer for 1-1.50 euros


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## Guest

Whitehouse said:


> If your friends have been in Spain for 8 years they will find the UK a far different place to the place they left.


I'm thinking of a first trip back for ten years - my last visit was a flying visit in 1999, in and out the same day, so I have really seen the place since 1994. It's going to be a strange experience, by all accounts...

On topic, in France there's been quite a lot of info about the extent of the recession in Spain, the reasons why Spain has suffered more than most European nations. But then again, in France we don't have the equivalent of the Sun/Mail/Mirror to divert us from the facts!

I lived in Madrid in the Barrio del Pilar for a year, waaaay back in 1974. Bet that's changed a bit too! Not been back since...


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I'm on the Costa Blanca
> 
> 
> 8 euro is more common for a set menu in my town - you can actually get menu del dia for as little as 5 euro
> 
> 25 euro would indeed be in a 'special' restaurant
> 
> car hire - here's a link for a local company
> Prices Rent a Car - Winter - Summer
> 
> it's still officially 'summer' but you can hire a car from 390 euro for 2 weeks
> 
> beer - you can get a beer for 1-1.50 euros


 Glad to know there are "normal" prices to be had down your way. I was getting a little worried for you all!!


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## mrypg9

Tallulah said:


> I'm afraid it's much bigger than that. Maybe now, people in "the west" will realise what old Russia, China, Middle East meant by the capitalist states.
> 
> The West is completely reliant on "the economy". Without "the economy" there is no West as we know it. Therefore, when they were talking about financial collapse after Lehman Bros, they were actually saying potentially, the end of the West as we know it. Banks have been receiving HUGE amounts of money from governments. They have been using that money to balance their books in order to get themselves "healthy" before even attempting to make the rest of us healthy. They, like the Gripe A frontline medical and administration staff who were always going to get the jab first, even if no-one else did, must be healthy if we are ever to get a chance to get back to a healthy, capitalist society. Lest we forget, it's not just Lehman that caused this - the real fright in my mind was when AIG, the biggest insurance company in the world, needed urgent government bail out before they went bust. Imagine, your banks are not safe and all that money you've paid on insurance isn't worth a damn. Let's face it, whilst we rely on "the banks" as a way of life, it's going to take a lot more than their large bonuses for western governments to rock their boats too much.
> 
> Taking one line - again - from my original post is therefore slightly out of context and will take a long time to finish this thread!!  Sure, it is the lesser of two evils, but the big evil isn't to not prop up the banks, it's to let western way of life, democracy, capitalism etc go to hell and either impose marshall law or start a communist regime! Let's not forget, that even in the great depression, although they took a hell of a lot longer about it, capitalist tools "propping up" were still used - only then they took way too long, hence the consequences. Let's hope this time they did it quick enough and let's not forget until the government money effects run out (any time soon now) we won't actually know if we're out of this or not. There has been talk of a second, much larger wave once those artificial props are removed. Let's hope those people saying that are wrong, for all our sakes.


You are quite right. I believe it was Adam Smith (who is so often misquoted or taken out of context) who said that it is the duty of the state to sustain illiquid -not insolvent -banks.
There was no alternative to the Government's actions. It is quite conceivable that the taxpayer will profit when these assets are sold off.
Other Western countries have taken similar actionin temporarily nationalising their banks. There is no alternative if you wish to keep capitalism aka our way of life alive and at least ticking over.
The car scrappage scheme has been successful in all countries which introduced it for a variety of reasons.


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## thrax

we were in Spain back in July/August this year and we spent a lot of time researching prices in supermarkets in comparrison to UK supermarkets. Now you have to understand that this was a comparrison between where we live and where we were staying (near Velez-Malaga). Some things were a bit more expensive (such as British cheeses and some dairy products and nappies!!), some things were about equivalent (can't think of any as I am writing this) but by far the biggest thing we noticed was that most things were far cheaper. We calculated our standard monthly shopping bill and in Spain, like for like, we would be 65% better off than here in good old Blighty. But things over here are seriously worse than they were 10 years ago, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread; our gas bill this year is likely to top £2000 and electricity around £700, and no we don't live in a mansion. Eating out in London for equivalent food we would expect from our favourite Spanish restaurants (where we pay around £25 each) we can expect a bill of around £70 - £110 each, so we don't eat out much!!! I don't smoke but I love wine and spirits and there is simply no comparrison in this area, with malt whisky far cheaper in Spain (my favourite brand is half the price in Spain than over here) so naturally my liver is getting worried about our move to Spain. Of course, prices do vary quite a bit in Spain, depending on where you choose to live, but if you aren't heading for the glamour spots and stick to where the Spanish live, in my experience it remains considerably cheaper. We are luck since I already have a good pension and therefore we will arrive without having to find sork to survive. It will be tougher in Spain than here (Mrs Thrax works - I can't find a job) but at least we will have a standard of living without the problems we have every day here and one we can afford without working. 

I'm going to stop now since I am beginning to bore myself so God knows what I must be doing to you lot....


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## CLIVE

mrypg9 said:


> I think tv programmes like that'A Place in the Sun' have a lot to answer for. That and the euphoria of holidays with sun, sea etc.
> What's that old saying about the grass being greener....?
> I would venture the opinion that if you're finding life hard in the UK you'll find it even harder here.


????? Am I missing something here.....? We came to Spain, to get away from the almost constant grim weather in the UK, and the dreadful summers. (Ok we do have a reasonable one every so often).
We also wanted to get away from the indecently high 'living bills'..... like water rates of £80 a month, council rates of £120 a month, gas - £40 and elec £40 each a month; the ripoff amount you have to pay for diesel compared to here; the extortionate ANNUAL vehicle tax, compared to here; look at what the TV licence now costs in the UK; look at how your're ripped off just to park your car almost anywhere in Britain; and the cost of parking at hospitals as well.......!!!!!!!!
Come on..! life harder here..??? Certainly not from where I am looking / seeing / experiencing..


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## Xose

CLIVE said:


> ????? Am I missing something here.....? We came to Spain, to get away from the almost constant grim weather in the UK, and the dreadful summers. (Ok we do have a reasonable one every so often).
> We also wanted to get away from the indecently high 'living bills'..... like water rates of £80 a month, council rates of £120 a month, gas - £40 and elec £40 each a month; the ripoff amount you have to pay for diesel compared to here; the extortionate ANNUAL vehicle tax, compared to here; look at what the TV licence now costs in the UK; look at how your're ripped off just to park your car almost anywhere in Britain; and the cost of parking at hospitals as well.......!!!!!!!!
> Come on..! life harder here..??? Certainly not from where I am looking / seeing / experiencing..



Don’t worry Clive, you’re not going mad 
I too have wondered. As you and Thrax have stated, “living” in Spain is cheaper. 

I still have my old Supermarket account for home delivery and now and then I pop in to take a look at a fake basket without checking out. I, like you, have wondered what and where people are buying for the posts I’ve seen to come up.

Perhaps there’s a little bit of inner demon at work. Perhaps people are preparing the ground work for their mind, ready to make the move back to the UK.

One thing is for sure, for those not having to work, specially OAP’s who are returning because it’s gotten so hard here, I can’t for the life of me work out what calculations they’ve made.

Xose


----------



## xabiaxica

Xose said:


> Don’t worry Clive, you’re not going mad
> I too have wondered. As you and Thrax have stated, “living” in Spain is cheaper.
> 
> I still have my old Supermarket account for home delivery and now and then I pop in to take a look at a fake basket without checking out. I, like you, have wondered what and where people are buying for the posts I’ve seen to come up.
> 
> Perhaps there’s a little bit of inner demon at work. Perhaps people are preparing the ground work for their mind, ready to make the move back to the UK.
> 
> One thing is for sure, for those not having to work, specially OAP’s who are returning because it’s gotten so hard here, I can’t for the life of me work out what calculations they’ve made.
> 
> Xose


yes, 'living' is still cheaper


but for many who have to work, or can no longer get work - or who are coming here expecting to find work - yes, it can be harder


----------



## jojo

Xose said:


> One thing is for sure, for those not having to work, specially OAP’s who are returning because it’s gotten so hard here, I can’t for the life of me work out what calculations they’ve made.
> 
> Xose


The cost of living overall is cheaper, council tax, petrol, booze, ciggies are all much cheaper. Food, groceries etc, are a little bit cheaper, but when you take into account all the deals (BOGOF, 2 for 1 etc and they're on an awful ot of items) in the UK supermarkets, it does make them significantly cheaper! My OH has just brought some some cheese back from the UK, two great big packets, about the size of a paperback book when put together and they cost 3 pounds on a BOGOF

I have to say tho that my utility bills here are about the same as they are in my UK house, and there are 5 people living in the UK house as opposed to 3 here in Spain - and I'm not wasteful!!!

But yes, I can never fathom out why people on pensions think they'll be better off going back to the UK, it doesnt add up at all! Maybe its not just financially better off, maybe its for a sense of security. People "run for home" when theres a crisis???

Jo xx


----------



## mrypg9

CLIVE said:


> ????? Am I missing something here.....? We came to Spain, to get away from the almost constant grim weather in the UK, and the dreadful summers. (Ok we do have a reasonable one every so often).
> We also wanted to get away from the indecently high 'living bills'..... like water rates of £80 a month, council rates of £120 a month, gas - £40 and elec £40 each a month; the ripoff amount you have to pay for diesel compared to here; the extortionate ANNUAL vehicle tax, compared to here; look at what the TV licence now costs in the UK; look at how your're ripped off just to park your car almost anywhere in Britain; and the cost of parking at hospitals as well.......!!!!!!!!
> Come on..! life harder here..??? Certainly not from where I am looking / seeing / experiencing..



You are missing the fact that there are as many immigrant opinions as there are immigrants and each one depends on the individual's economic situation.
Me?? I am very happy here. I don't need to work, have an assured income, live in a big house with pool etc. etc. in a nice area. (Incidentally, we lived fairly well in the UK and very well in Prague).
So is my life hard?? Am I miserable?? A tad smug-sounding, maybe, but very happy here.
But my post was not aimed at people in my -or your-position. Read the threads by people wanting to leave the UK, people looking for work in the construction industry, wanting to open bars, looking for 500 euro a month accommodation including utilities for a family. Do you think that it will be easy for these people -most of whom speak no Spanish -to uproot and move here at this particular point in the economic cycle? 
In my opinion it would be grossly irresponsible to tell such people -many of them probably low-wage earners in the UK -to simply up and off, unless, as I always point out, you have a good exit strategy and enough back-up money.. 
But someone in my position....middle-aged, maybe older good income, property in UK, not seeking work in Spain, looking for a comfortable, warm early retirement spot? I'd say log on to ba.com NOW. One-way flight.
So...I'm happy, you're happy, so are loads of other people in our position.
But very many are not so lucky. Some of us feel we should point out the down side as well as the up.


----------



## mrypg9

Xose said:


> Don’t worry Clive, you’re not going mad
> I too have wondered. As you and Thrax have stated, “living” in Spain is cheaper.
> 
> I still have my old Supermarket account for home delivery and now and then I pop in to take a look at a fake basket without checking out. I, like you, have wondered what and where people are buying for the posts I’ve seen to come up.
> 
> Perhaps there’s a little bit of inner demon at work. Perhaps people are preparing the ground work for their mind, ready to make the move back to the UK.
> 
> One thing is for sure, for those not having to work, specially OAP’s who are returning because it’s gotten so hard here, I can’t for the life of me work out what calculations they’ve made.
> 
> Xose


You've missed the point. No-one is denying that living is cheaper here. That's not what I and others are telling would-be immigrants.
We are talking about jobs and their current scarcity..
No way will I be moving back to the UK. I'm better off here, thankfully.
OAPs who are returning to the UK are probably those with no other income than their pension, paid in sterling, now converted to euros at a two-thirds of what it was two or three years ago.
Their calculations weren't wrong, their grasp of foreign exchange movements and the natural cycles of our economic system were inadequate.
People are still relocating here but I would bet that they have their future sewn up. No money worries, no need to job seek.
And as you said, many are going home, which is sad.


----------



## mrypg9

CLIVE said:


> ?).
> We also wanted to get away from the indecently high 'living bills'..... like water rates of £80 a month, council rates of £120 a month, gas - £40 and elec £40 each a month;
> QUOTE]
> 
> Just looked at my last water bill.....248 euros for three months. Electricity: 238 euros for two months. We have a large garden and pool, true, but we paid a similar amount in the UK.
> As for Council Tax: I paid a lot more than £120 a month four years ago....but my son pays over 400 euros a month in community fees here.
> Some things are cheaper here, some more expensive. It all depends on where you live and how you live.


----------



## Xose

mrypg9 said:


> You've missed the point. No-one is denying that living is cheaper here. That's not what I and others are telling would-be immigrants.
> We are talking about jobs and their current scarcity..
> No way will I be moving back to the UK. I'm better off here, thankfully.
> OAPs who are returning to the UK are probably those with no other income than their pension, paid in sterling, now converted to euros at a two-thirds of what it was two or three years ago.
> Their calculations weren't wrong, their grasp of foreign exchange movements and the natural cycles of our economic system were inadequate.
> People are still relocating here but I would bet that they have their future sewn up. No money worries, no need to job seek.
> And as you said, many are going home, which is sad.


No, I have not missed the point. I think you have missed the point.

The last few posts were stating facts. It is cheaper to live here than in the UK.

If someone has a flat where they pay 400 comunity fee a month, what kind of flat is it and what would they get for that and what would they pay in the UK for that? I know how much I was looking at when I was looking for property in the UK and looked at appartments/flats.

You have a large garden and pool. I have a large garden and no pool. You pay hundreds a quarter for your water and I pay 35€ a quarter. Irrelevent, what would that same usage cost you in the UK for usage and then waste?

The statements made by various was that it is cheaper to live here. Clearly one needs to look at like for like under such statements.

Are you disagreeing with that or simply stating that if you don't have money or a job then paying the bills and eating will make this seem like hell on earth? - if the latter, I agree.

Xose


----------



## Xose

jojo said:


> The cost of living overall is cheaper, council tax, petrol, booze, ciggies are all much cheaper. Food, groceries etc, are a little bit cheaper, but when you take into account all the deals (BOGOF, 2 for 1 etc and they're on an awful ot of items) in the UK supermarkets, it does make them significantly cheaper! My OH has just brought some some cheese back from the UK, two great big packets, about the size of a paperback book when put together and they cost 3 pounds on a BOGOF
> 
> I have to say tho that my utility bills here are about the same as they are in my UK house, and there are 5 people living in the UK house as opposed to 3 here in Spain - and I'm not wasteful!!!
> 
> But yes, I can never fathom out why people on pensions think they'll be better off going back to the UK, it doesnt add up at all! Maybe its not just financially better off, maybe its for a sense of security. People "run for home" when theres a crisis???
> 
> Jo xx




Blimey, that is cheap. But surely you've seen this here also. It's gotten so bad that schooling is being affected. A teacher in our kid's chool was doing a math test on the kids in Cuarto de Primario.
The teacher asked "Juancito, que es 3 por 2" - and Juancito replied, "Carrefour" 

Xose


----------



## jojo

Xose said:


> Blimey, that is cheap. But surely you've seen this here also. It's gotten so bad that schooling is being affected. A teacher in our kid's chool was doing a math test on the kids in Cuarto de Primario.
> The teacher asked "Juancito, que es 3 por 2" - and Juancito replied, "Carrefour"
> 
> Xose


Yeah, the have started doing it in Carrefour, but not many things (and never the things I want LOL) and Carrefour's not that cheap to start with 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> You've missed the point. No-one is denying that living is cheaper here. That's not what I and others are telling would-be immigrants.
> .


Nobody's missed the point mrypg9 , but people have different opinions and that's a different thing. 

Some people are saying it's more expensive to live here than the UK. Look at Whitehouse posts #72 and #89. Others are saying it's cheaper for example Clive #102. I'm sitting on the fence because I think there's probably not much in it one way or the other and because I'm not going to be living in the UK the pices here are the only ones that concern me. That's why I was shocked by the prices that whitehouse has quoted in her/ his posts because they don't seem indicative of the prices that I'm familiar with.


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> The cost of living overall is cheaper, council tax, petrol, booze, ciggies are all much cheaper. Food, groceries etc, are a little bit cheaper, but when you take into account all the deals (BOGOF, 2 for 1 etc and they're on an awful ot of items) in the UK supermarkets, it does make them significantly cheaper! My OH has just brought some some cheese back from the UK, two great big packets, about the size of a paperback book when put together and they cost 3 pounds on a BOGOF


Wassa BOGOF? Do I need to take an English language refresher course for my trip to the UK at Christmas?

_Edit: Ah got it, doh_


----------



## Whitehouse

Admittedly the 25 euro set menu is at a bit more upmarket restaurant in our village but so called cheap meals at the cafeterias are not so cheap as some other places. I paid 4euros for a cheese sandwich with garnish (a lettuce leaf and a slice of tomato) at one of the local cafe's and a typical lasagne with chips or chicken chips and salad etc. costs in the region of 7-8 euros but the price of the lager is more or less the same throughout the town (after checking with hubby) - 2.5 euros. 

We are going to the Costa Del Sol on Tuesday but have to say we have never found the prices any cheaper there. In the local restaurants in Nerj where we visited, meals there are approx. 10 - 12 euros at the roadside restaurants. 

Anyway we are hoping for some nice weather as we have been told by my brother that has just returned from Murcia that the weather has been very hot. :clap2:


----------



## Joppa

Whitehouse said:


> Anyway we are hoping for some nice weather as we have been told by my brother that has just returned from Murcia that the weather has been very hot. :clap2:


Official AEMet prediction for Tuesday 13th in Nerja is high of 26C, low of 18C, sunny intervals and fresh easterly wind 20mph. Similar for Málaga, with up to 28C in Torremolinos and Marbella.


----------



## SteveHall

Still gorgeous here. Nearly 1am sitting outside in pavement cafe in shirtsleeves. Life is sweet.


----------



## XTreme

You're back in Spain Steve?


----------



## Whitehouse

Joppa said:


> Official AEMet prediction for Tuesday 13th in Nerja is high of 26C, low of 18C, sunny intervals and fresh easterly wind 20mph. Similar for Málaga, with up to 28C in Torremolinos and Marbella.



Thanks for that Joppa. I am off to get an extra couple of summer tops out !
:clap2:


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Nobody's missed the point mrypg9 , but people have different opinions and that's a different thing.
> 
> Some people are saying it's more expensive to live here than the UK. Look at Whitehouse posts #72 and #89. Others are saying it's cheaper for example Clive #102. I'm sitting on the fence because I think there's probably not much in it one way or the other and because I'm not going to be living in the UK the pices here are the only ones that concern me. That's why I was shocked by the prices that whitehouse has quoted in her/ his posts because they don't seem indicative of the prices that I'm familiar with.



Sorry to be persistent but the cost of living is not the point.
The point I was making is about the job situation. People who ask about the job situation in Spain need to know that currently the Spanish economy is depressed and unemployment is at 20%, more in some regions. No unemployment benefit and other welfare benefits either.
Other posters have made the same point as me. It's not kind to allow people to assume that jobs are hanging from trees here and that you can live on fresh air and abundant sunshine.
To be honest, I don't know whether it's more expensive to live in the UK or Spain. I don't know what things cost in the UK as my many trips over the last four years have been business-related, expenses paid and I haven't done food shopping for years. I looked up my Council Tax and utilities bills from 2004, the last year I have records of and they were quite high. 
The cost of living and the admittedly awful weather weren't the reasons we decided to leave the UK. We will most cerainly never be returning - if for some unimaginable reason we stopped enjoying life here we would go somewhere else in Europe. 
Cost of living issues are irrelevant if you haven't got a job. 
The difficulties of finding employment in Spain at this time was the point of this thread - a thread which someone even suggested should be a 'sticky' as some people in the UK seemed to think the recession was confined to the UK, as Sue pointed out. Unemployment of 20% and forecast to rise isn't my opinion, sadly it's a fact. The scarcity of jobs for Spanish people must make it extremely difficult fror foreigners to get jobs - and who remembers the recent backlash in the UK when EU workers were given jobs in favour of British workers?
I thought I'd made it clear that that was the intention of the thread , not the comparative cost of living but maybe sun, gin and general decrepitude are distorting my already limited reasoning powers.


----------



## mrypg9

Incidentally, my daughter-in-law arrived from London yesterday to top up her tan as she is going to a black-tie Charity Ball on Saturday and wants to look tanned and radiant. 
Her Aer Lingus return ticket cost £48 inclusive....
7% unemployed in the UK so there are 93% still working who are enjoying low interest rates and competitive deals in most branches of commerce, whether supermarkets or airlines.
I hate low interest rates..:spit:


----------



## SteveHall

Yes, Xtreme, I am back to haunt Jojo. 

Fuengirola Festival this week and the place is stacked with sub-30 guapitas. Sadly, Xtreme you would have had no chance! The grandmothers poured into their trajes de flamenca reminded me why I love Spain. I was walking through the fair ground at 2am carrying my laptop. No gangs, no yobs, no feeling of intimidation just thousands of families out to have a good time and forget the world they face this morning. 

The colour, the pasion, the smells, the NOISE .... ESTO ES ESPAÑA


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> 7% unemployed in the UK so there are 93% still working who are enjoying low interest rates and competitive deals in most branches of commerce, whether supermarkets or airlines.
> I hate low interest rates..:spit:


Thats better! That sounds much more positive!!! The interest rate being so low is a double edged sword isnt it!! low mortgages, but low returns on savings!


Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

mrypg9 said:


> The cost of living and the admittedly awful weather weren't the reasons we decided to leave the UK. We will most cerainly never be returning - if for some unimaginable reason we stopped enjoying life here we would go somewhere else in Europe.


Spot on....same for us!

If for some reason we decided to leave Spain....it would be French Maids here we come!

Britain? I'm not even going back in a box!


----------



## mrypg9

XTreme said:


> Spot on....same for us!
> 
> If for some reason we decided to leave Spain....it would be French Maids here we come!
> 
> Britain? I'm not even going back in a box!


Hmm...not sure about the box, don't know what happens here when we are no longer with us, if you know what I mean...
Don't fancy being interred in a cement wall feet first.
Yes, Jo....good if you have a mortgage.
But we haven't....just money invested ....


----------



## Whitehouse

Unemployment 7% ????


Well speaking as someone who lives in the West Midlands, our unemployment is around 10% and I would have thought that the cost of living in Spain was important even if you wre NOT working. Surely if you live on a limited income i.e. state pension or pensions, unless they are index linked, the more prices rise the worse it is for pensioners over there, which is why many of them are returning to the UK reluctantly !


----------



## jojo

Whitehouse said:


> Unemployment 7% ????
> 
> 
> Surely if you live on a limited income i.e. state pension or pensions, unless they are index linked, the more prices rise the worse it is for pensioners over there, which is why many of them are returning to the UK reluctantly !



But it is still more exensive in the UK to live! Forget the cost of food, drink etc, although that is marginally cheaper in Spain, as is petrol, ciggies, booze. The biggy is the council tax, in the UK is 180pounds a month, in Spain its 28€ a month!! 

And then theres the cost of relocating back to the UK, it maybe a one off, but that has to be taken into account cos its not cheap!

Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> The biggy is the council tax, in the UK is 180pounds a month, in Spain its 28€ a month!!


Only 10 euros a month here!

All you guys living near the coast pay a lot more for everything than we do!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> Only 10 euros a month here!
> 
> All you guys living near the coast pay a lot more for everything than we do!



Yes, but you're out in the middle of nowhere!!

Anyway, I know that if it wasnt for the school fees, financially we're better off in Spain than in the UK without a doubt, so I cant understand why people are returning because they cant afford Spain?????? Unless they've lost an income here?

Jo xxx


----------



## anles

By council tax, are you referring to IBI or rubbish tax? The IBI varies tremendoulsy according to the value of the property, location, in rural areas I have friends paying as little as 13€ a year up to as much as 220€ a year. Rubbish tax however is paid to the town hall and varies from council to council. It is usually paid every six months, in the council where I work it's 16€ each fee (so 32€ a year)


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> Yes, but you're out in the middle of nowhere!!


Yeh...but I can still get 3MB landline ADSL....which is more than a lot of the Brit ghetto dwellers can have.


----------



## mrypg9

Whitehouse said:


> Unemployment 7% ????
> 
> 
> Well speaking as someone who lives in the West Midlands, our unemployment is around 10% and I would have thought that the cost of living in Spain was important even if you wre NOT working. Surely if you live on a limited income i.e. state pension or pensions, unless they are index linked, the more prices rise the worse it is for pensioners over there, which is why many of them are returning to the UK reluctantly !


7 -8% is the national average so there are bound to be areas of higher unemployment.
I totally agree with the rest of your post.


----------



## Hombre

XTreme said:


> Yeh...but I can still get 3MB landline ADSL....which is more than a lot of the Brit ghetto dwellers can have.




Just showing off really !


----------



## Whitehouse

XTreme said:


> Only 10 euros a month here!
> 
> All you guys living near the coast pay a lot more for everything than we do!



Actually we pay £90 per month in the UK for council tax but I take your point on this as ours in Spain is 31 euros per month ! Actual cost of eating out in the UK though is very cheap compared to Spain, we have found of late, but is only an issue if you are holidaying there I guess. Also our fuel bills in Spain have increased dramatically in the 5 years we have had our apartment. Our electricity has doubled ! Having said that in the UK they have probably trebled in that time as they have almost certainly doubled in the last 12 - 18 months, as has the gas !

Taking everything together though I would say that the living costs in Spain vs the UK are probably very similar of late.


----------



## jojo

Whitehouse said:


> Actually we pay £90 per month in the UK for council tax but I take your point on this as ours in Spain is 31 euros per month ! Actual cost of eating out in the UK though is very cheap compared to Spain, we have found of late, but is only an issue if you are holidaying there I guess. Also our fuel bills in Spain have increased dramatically in the 5 years we have had our apartment. Our electricity has doubled ! Having said that in the UK they have probably trebled in that time as they have almost certainly doubled in the last 12 - 18 months, as has the gas !
> 
> Taking everything together though I would say that the living costs in Spain vs the UK are probably very similar of late.


Its certainly not as cheap in Spain as it was! and if the exchange rate keeps doing what its doing............. AAAAAAGGGHHH!!!!!!

Jo xx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry to be persistent but the cost of living is not the point.
> The point I was making is about the job situation. People who ask about the job situation in Spain need to know that currently the Spanish economy is depressed and unemployment is at 20%, more in some regions. No unemployment benefit and other welfare benefits either.
> Other posters have made the same point as me. It's not kind to allow people to assume that jobs are hanging from trees here and that you can live on fresh air and abundant sunshine.
> .


OK, let's go back to basics. I believe the original question was:

Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?

I think the answer is very clearly that the vast majority of people in the UK are NOT aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is. It was a very short, direct question and my personal answer is NO.

To be able to know what the situation is like in Spain today people need to know about the job situation and prices present and future tendencies.


----------



## Hombre

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, let's go back to basics. I believe the original question was:
> 
> Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?
> 
> I think the answer is very clearly that the vast majority of people in the UK are NOT aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is. It was a very short, direct question and my personal answer is NO.
> 
> To be able to know what the situation is like in Spain today people need to know about the job situation and prices present and future tendencies.


Or...we could ask "Do people in the UK *care* how depressed the Spanish economy is?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Hombre said:


> Or...we could ask "Do people in the UK *care* how depressed the Spanish economy is?


Ha ha. 

That opens up a whole Pandora's box of replies, and I think I've had enough!


----------



## Suenneil

Hombre said:


> Or...we could ask "Do people in the UK *care* how depressed the Spanish economy is?


mmmmmmm well that was one of the points of the question Mr H ......it was asked in response to the increase we saw in people wanting to know where they could find a job when they came over here to escape the crisis in the UK ...... 

So one would assume they would have to care, and would need the knowledge of Spains economy as a starting point to see if coming to Spain was indeed a good plan at the moment.

Sue x :ranger:


----------



## Hombre

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ha ha.
> 
> That opens up a whole Pandora's box of replies, and I think I've had enough!


mmmmmm.....me too


----------



## chrisnation

*Who cares?*



mrypg9 said:


> Just wondering.....and it's raining, third day running.....


I should say that the number of people in UK who think for one nanosecond about the Spanish economy, good, bad or indifferent, is so small as to be statistically invisible. And why should they and why should we care one way or the other?

If, as I did, they read a European quality of life study in yesterday's Torygraph, that France and Spain came out tops & UK came bottom, they might think "recession-geschmession. Let them eat paella till they burst."

One of the really refreshing things I've found about living ex-UK, even in Pakistan, is that I don't have to give a moment's thought to the state of things back home. Of course I care about really big stuff like the London bus/tube bombings but that would apply wherever it had occured. 

Here, for those who need corroboration that they live in the right place, is part of the report 

"_With a litre of unleaded petrol at £1.08 a litre, the UK is the second most expensive country in Europe. However, diesel is more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in Europe – £1.13 a litre, which is 19p or 20 per cent above the European average of £0.94. 

The report by price comparison website uSwitch analyses 10 European countries against 17 different benchmarks, from the price of gas, electricity, fuel, food and drink to the amount each country spends on education, health to working conditions and the weather._"

However, London came out top of a list of 20 world cities but as I say in another post in the endless FX thread, London is UK's 5th country and they do things, like money, differently there. Not even Barcelona made it into the top 20 - but Moscow did. 

If you are glad you woke up where you did this morning, that should be enough. Let the Devil take the hindmost.


----------



## Suenneil

chrisnation said:


> I should say that the number of people in UK who think for one nanosecond about the Spanish economy, good, bad or indifferent, is so small as to be statistically invisible. And why should they and why should we care one way or the other?
> 
> If, as I did, they read a European quality of life study in yesterday's Torygraph, that France and Spain came out tops & UK came bottom, they might think "recession-geschmession. Let them eat paella till they burst."
> 
> One of the really refreshing things I've found about living ex-UK, even in Pakistan, is that I don't have to give a moment's thought to the state of things back home. Of course I care about really big stuff like the London bus/tube bombings but that would apply wherever it had occured.
> 
> Here, for those who need corroboration that they live in the right place, is part of the report
> 
> "_With a litre of unleaded petrol at £1.08 a litre, the UK is the second most expensive country in Europe. However, diesel is more expensive in the UK than anywhere else in Europe – £1.13 a litre, which is 19p or 20 per cent above the European average of £0.94.
> 
> The report by price comparison website uSwitch analyses 10 European countries against 17 different benchmarks, from the price of gas, electricity, fuel, food and drink to the amount each country spends on education, health to working conditions and the weather._"
> 
> However, London came out top of a list of 20 world cities but as I say in another post in the endless FX thread, London is UK's 5th country and they do things, like money, differently there. Not even Barcelona made it into the top 20 - but Moscow did.
> 
> If you are glad you woke up where you did this morning, that should be enough. Let the Devil take the hindmost.



Hiya 

The ONLY reason we started this thread was to ask the question in relation to those people thinking or planning on moving to Spain from the UK who thought they could come over as a beautician / plumber / real estate agent / dog groomer (or a squillion other professions) and start having a great life in the Sun!!

So we asked the question if people really did know what Spains economy was like at the moment ..... because if they truly did - then perhaps moving over to Spain now wouldnt be on many peoples to do list!!!

Sue x :ranger:


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, let's go back to basics. I believe the original question was:
> 
> Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?
> 
> I think the answer is very clearly that the vast majority of people in the UK are NOT aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is. It was a very short, direct question and my personal answer is NO.
> 
> To be able to know what the situation is like in Spain today people need to know about the job situation and prices present and future tendencies.


Thanks, that was my point.
Cost of living, weather, price of diesel, communitry fees, the price of fish etc. etc. are irrelevant if you are jobless and skint in a foreign country and anyone wishing to relocate with their family and who doesn't take time to find out what the economic situation is here is not very sensible, to say the least.


----------



## MartinJames

*Spanish Housing Market*

_"Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?"_

Hi All, I am looking at bying in Spain.

And I am doing my research, with the Spanish housing market. I wish to buy a home for retirement. 

The people in the UK are put off with buying housing in Spain. With all the bad press and TV shows, showing people having there homes taken away. As they are built with out permission or in the province of Valencia, your home or land may have a road go through it.

And with the strong Euro and the recession in the UK. Banks not lending money and the cost of living. And Spain not as cheap as it once was. Combined with over a million house for sale new and old. High unemployment. And reading banks have a stock of houses, repossessed that will be put on the market. The house are over priced and you just can’t trust the way the Spanish do business. And flying to Spain is not cheap. 

But it has not put me off. I am watching the market. 

Links to the Spanish housing market 2010 The Spanish real estate market continues to struggle, and housing and rental prices are falling steadily. With unemployment rising, and a new government tax hike anticipated, experts believe that 2010 will hold even more bad news for Spain's real estate market. > Conditions Worsening In Spain's Real Estate Market. From NuWire 

Banco Santander, Spain’s biggest bank, together with its consumer unit Banco Espanol de Credito SA, has €4.1 billion of property assets after acquiring real estate from failing developers. > From Property Wire

Just search Spanish housing market 2010 on Google!

How is living in Spain now Compared to 5 years ago?

Thanks for looking Martin


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## mrypg9

mytravelphotoblog said:


> _"Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?"_
> 
> Hi All, I am looking at bying in Spain.
> 
> And I am doing my research, with the Spanish housing market. I wish to buy a home for retirement.
> 
> Martin


If you are buying for retirement and -and this is the most important consideration -have sufficient retirement income so that you are cushioned against future depreciation of sterling, interest rates continuing at their current abysmally low level and similar perils for those on fixed incomes, then 2010 should be a good year to buy.
My original post was in response to a number of posts from people with seemingly no idea about the economic situation in Spain who were inquiring about job prospects here, mainly in low- or semi-skilled trades.
Interestingly, there have been fewer of these lately which leads me to believe that it's a 'post-holiday-in -the -sun-blues' syndrome.
As for the alleged pitfalls of buying in Spain, many of these have been exaggerated or manufactured by individuals with self-promotion as their chief interest (see European Property Owners Day thread). If you follow correct procedure you will have no problems.
As for having your house demolished because of road or railway construction, that is not unique to Spain -it happens everywhere.
How many dwellings in the UK have been subject to Compulsory Purchase Orders for demolition in order to allow motorways, airports and other facilities deemed essential to be constructed, the Channel Tunnel rail link being the latest example with Stansted as a possible future case.
Do not be put off by the mainly inaccurate reports you may have come across in the UK media.


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## chrisnation

*5 years ago? The past is another country ...*



mytravelphotoblog said:


> _"Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is?"_
> 
> Hi All, I am looking at bying in Spain.
> 
> And I am doing my research, with the Spanish housing market. I wish to buy a home for retirement.
> 
> The people in the UK are put off with buying housing in Spain. With all the bad press and TV shows, showing people having there homes taken away. As they are built with out permission or in the province of Valencia, your home or land may have a road go through it.
> 
> And with the strong Euro and the recession in the UK. Banks not lending money and the cost of living. And Spain not as cheap as it once was. Combined with over a million house for sale new and old. High unemployment. And reading banks have a stock of houses, repossessed that will be put on the market. The house are over priced and you just can’t trust the way the Spanish do business. And flying to Spain is not cheap.
> 
> But it has not put me off. I am watching the market.
> 
> Links to the Spanish housing market 2010 The Spanish real estate market continues to struggle, and housing and rental prices are falling steadily. With unemployment rising, and a new government tax hike anticipated, experts believe that 2010 will hold even more bad news for Spain's real estate market. > Conditions Worsening In Spain's Real Estate Market. From NuWire
> 
> Banco Santander, Spain’s biggest bank, together with its consumer unit Banco Espanol de Credito SA, has €4.1 billion of property assets after acquiring real estate from failing developers. > From Property Wire
> 
> Just search Spanish housing market 2010 on Google!
> 
> How is living in Spain now Compared to 5 years ago?
> 
> Thanks for looking Martin


..... they do things differently there.

I find it impossible to understand how comparing the Spain of 5 years ago to now can benefit anyone not in the history/sociology/academic economics biz , least of all someone who is considering moving to Spain. 

The Spain of NOW is the Spain - and anywhere else you care to name - that everybody lives in and to which you will move - if you do. Yesterday, let alone 5 years ago, has gone. Tomorrow may possibly resemble today but don't count on it. Next week will look even more different ...

As for 'flying to Spain is not cheap', it depends where your start point is. From Van Horn, Texas, I expect it is not. In October I flew to Valencia from London Stansted on Ryanair for £10 inc taxes. My return ticket from Granada 2 weeks later was also £10 inc taxes. In the event, I returned from Valencia on EasyJet for £20 inc taxes. This, in anybody's lingo, is stunningly cheap. 

The macro affects the micro but there is sweet f.a you can do about it. Knowing that the Spanish banks have X billion worth of repos won't help you decide if you like apartment A over apartment B, whether you would prefer deep country to inner city ...

Work out where you want to live and in what sort of property. That will enable you to decide a budget for buying or renting same. Meantime, work out what you are going to do for a living. Researching this thoroughly will indicate whether what you intend to do will sustain the life you hope to lead. If you manage these processes, I reckon you've done a very large chunk of what needs to be done. And none of it is predicated on what happened 5 years ago.

Best of luck


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## mrypg9

chrisnation said:


> ..... they do things differently there.
> 
> I find it impossible to understand how comparing the Spain of 5 years ago to now can benefit anyone not in the history/sociology/academic economics biz , least of all someone who is considering moving to Spain.
> 
> The Spain of NOW is the Spain - and anywhere else you care to name - that everybody lives in and to which you will move - if you do. Yesterday, let alone 5 years ago, has gone. Tomorrow may possibly resemble today but don't count on it. Next week will look even more different ...
> 
> As for 'flying to Spain is not cheap', it depends where your start point is. From Van Horn, Texas, I expect it is not. In October I flew to Valencia from London Stansted on Ryanair for £10 inc taxes. My return ticket from Granada 2 weeks later was also £10 inc taxes. In the event, I returned from Valencia on EasyJet for £20 inc taxes. This, in anybody's lingo, is stunningly cheap.
> 
> The macro affects the micro but there is sweet f.a you can do about it. Knowing that the Spanish banks have X billion worth of repos won't help you decide if you like apartment A over apartment B, whether you would prefer deep country to inner city ...
> 
> Work out where you want to live and in what sort of property. That will enable you to decide a budget for buying or renting same. Meantime, work out what you are going to do for a living. Researching this thoroughly will indicate whether what you intend to do will sustain the life you hope to lead. If you manage these processes, I reckon you've done a very large chunk of what needs to be done. And none of it is predicated on what happened 5 years ago.
> 
> Best of luck


All that of course is very true. What was the £/euro rate five years ago? Who could have predicted the financial crisis of 2008/9 in 2003?
True, some economists, notably Joseph Steglitz,Larry Elliot and Will Hutton, warned of the instability of the unrestrained financial system but when the UK Chancellor spoke of an 'end to the boom and bust' cycle, who can blame Joe Public for thinking that the good times would roll on ...and on...and on..


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## tobyinspain

*Great time to buy in spain*

What a great time to buy in spain, it just depends on your circumstances. Property prices have dropped but will most definitely rise again, banks are selling off assets at ridiculous prices and are offering morgages as part of the package, all you need is a healthy deposit and income i.e. pension. Here in west andalucia the property developers are releasing new build at half the price of two years ago just to get rid of it. Many people are leaving because they thought that spain was always going to be cheaper than england and that their pound would go further, they didn't expect such a change in the rates and suddenly they had less money from england.
Most day to day prices here have not changed much for six years, they were cheap then and they are cheap now, yes there are a lot of things i wouldn't even bother to buy here (i use ebay.co.uk) but there is so much that I can live without, Good bacon at four times the price, primart,asda or cheap baked beans. So what, I came to live in spain not the next county.
The problem here is that the wage hasn't risen for so long and people think they can earn money easily. It's just not easy to find well paid work in a foreign country, and spain is in a depression that is as bad if not worst than england. I watch the news in spain and have contacts in the local council in huelva province, its not good news daily.
Anyone who wants to move to spain should do their homework, look on the web,find contacts, speak to the banks and know what they are offering and be picky, there are so many options if you look for them. Our small town (16,000) has about 70 estate agents, but everyone knows someone who knows somebody who has an offer to make you. Take your time and be sure, always get a recommendation and then be suspicious anyway, why not, it's your life that your changing. there are many crooks out here waiting for a quick buck or large commision for little work done.
Don't watch the TV programs on spain and use them as a guide, they make those for viewer figures not public information. The best way to judge an area is to spend some time there and geta feel for it, go out and sample the day to day life. Look around at property and checkout the prices, especially the privately advertised ones, go into the bars and ask about. theres always someone who will help somewhere.
I wish you all the best with your plans and hope this helps, I've been here seven years and it has not been easy but I know I've learnt a few things along the way that I would like to pass on.


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## jojo

tobyinspain said:


> What a great time to buy in spain, it just depends on your circumstances. Property prices have dropped but will most definitely rise again, banks are selling off assets at ridiculous prices and are offering morgages as part of the package, all you need is a healthy deposit and income i.e. pension. Here in west andalucia the property developers are releasing new build at half the price of two years ago just to get rid of it. Many people are leaving because they thought that spain was always going to be cheaper than england and that their pound would go further, they didn't expect such a change in the rates and suddenly they had less money from england.
> Most day to day prices here have not changed much for six years, they were cheap then and they are cheap now, yes there are a lot of things i wouldn't even bother to buy here (i use ebay.co.uk) but there is so much that I can live without, Good bacon at four times the price, primart,asda or cheap baked beans. So what, I came to live in spain not the next county.
> The problem here is that the wage hasn't risen for so long and people think they can earn money easily. It's just not easy to find well paid work in a foreign country, and spain is in a depression that is as bad if not worst than england. I watch the news in spain and have contacts in the local council in huelva province, its not good news daily.
> Anyone who wants to move to spain should do their homework, look on the web,find contacts, speak to the banks and know what they are offering and be picky, there are so many options if you look for them. Our small town (16,000) has about 70 estate agents, but everyone knows someone who knows somebody who has an offer to make you. Take your time and be sure, always get a recommendation and then be suspicious anyway, why not, it's your life that your changing. there are many crooks out here waiting for a quick buck or large commision for little work done.
> Don't watch the TV programs on spain and use them as a guide, they make those for viewer figures not public information. The best way to judge an area is to spend some time there and geta feel for it, go out and sample the day to day life. Look around at property and checkout the prices, especially the privately advertised ones, go into the bars and ask about. theres always someone who will help somewhere.
> I wish you all the best with your plans and hope this helps, I've been here seven years and it has not been easy but I know I've learnt a few things along the way that I would like to pass on.



Yes, I pretty much agree with most of what you've said. I'm not sure house prices have finished dropping yet, inspite of all the offers etc.. Work and the employment situation is terrible. I think day to day living costs are rising, electricity is more than when we arrived two years ago and food shopping is creeping up too - fresh meat in particular!!

But its still better than the UK, if only cos the Spanish seem to have a better attitude to life, then of course theres the sunshine (apparently??) and the open spaces!

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

Toby and Jojo spot on. The comment somewhere above regarding spain is now and not 5 years ago I think is not useful. If you're thinking of coming then studying the last 5 years will prepare you for if the worse happens.

Here in Madrid the buying of the bus service by National Express has doubled the fares - another example of why I think the spanish government has not got a clue. But many of these things will not impact ex-pats until the revolution.

Sorry an aside talking of revolutions: There was a guy taking a long break in Fiji when the last but one revolutrion occured. He received warnings from the US embassey to go home as they could not guarantee his safety. During 3 months of upheavel in Fiji 3 people died. In the guys home city of Chicago they averaged just over 50 homicides per month. 

Finally on the spanish weather tonight, after much rain, the resevoirs are just half full. Remember the rain at home - you might miss that.


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## mrypg9

tobyinspain said:


> .
> Don't watch the TV programs on spain and use them as a guide, they make those for viewer figures not public information.QUOTE]
> 
> How very, very true. You should have included reports in rags like the Daily Maul too, though


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## MartinJames

mrypg9 said:


> All that of course is very true. What was the £/euro rate five years ago? Who could have predicted the financial crisis of 2008/9 in 2003?
> True, some economists, notably Joseph Steglitz,Larry Elliot and Will Hutton, warned of the instability of the unrestrained financial system but when the UK Chancellor spoke of an 'end to the boom and bust' cycle, who can blame Joe Public for thinking that the good times would roll on ...and on...and on..


Hahahaha. From history we know there will be bust. And I could see it was on the way. If it wasant for the borrowing to cover debts the recession would have been a lot earlier. It’s not hard to see, if you borrow 120% on a over priced house. And borrowing on interest only for 35 years. What do you expect? And the banks could not see it, or was they trying to cover up there mistakes , or trying to make a quick killing. They employ professionals. Should not of happened. There should have been rainy day money put aside. Banks should have lent responsible. 

Can never trust what the government say. Look at the history of Labour government. They always get us in to debt. All the money the government made from stamp duty has been used to pay the banks.

With Eastern Europe French and Germany want control. Europe will never work!!!!!

Things have got very expensive in Spain over the last 5 years. That was the main reason for going to Spain.


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## mrypg9

mytravelphotoblog said:


> Hahahaha. From history we know there will be bust. And I could see it was on the way. If it wasant for the borrowing to cover debts the recession would have been a lot earlier. It’s not hard to see, if you borrow 120% on a over priced house. And borrowing on interest only for 35 years. What do you expect? And the banks could not see it, or was they trying to cover up there mistakes , or trying to make a quick killing. They employ professionals. Should not of happened. There should have been rainy day money put aside. Banks should have lent responsible.
> 
> Can never trust what the government say. Look at the history of Labour government. They always get us in to debt. All the money the government made from stamp duty has been used to pay the banks.
> 
> With Eastern Europe French and Germany want control. Europe will never work!!!!!
> 
> Things have got very expensive in Spain over the last 5 years. That was the main reason for going to Spain.


All Governments, whether Labour or Tory, have delivered boom and bust and have 'got us into debt'.. As you say, it's an inevitable part of a free market economy. I have said on another thread that we have made a grave error in decoupling economics from history.
The money the Government got from Stamp Duty would probably not cover the amount paid out in bonuses to fat cats. Most of the banks that had to be bailed out have paid back considerable sums back to the Exchequer and the taxpayer stands to make an eventual profit as is the case in the UK.
As for the unregulated borrowing and uncurbed financial speculation...who is to blame??
You could go back to Thatcher's 'Big Bang' in the 80s which allowed foreign financial institutions to trade in London. This free-for-all was deliberately encouraged by the Blair and Brown Governments. But it also led to London being the world's financial capital and to finance contributing some 20% of the nation's wealth.
Booms sustained by uncontrolled credit wrren't invented by Labour - remember the Lawson boom? But we all enjoy the good times when they roll.
As for the EU - it has achieved some successes and some failures. The Franco-German axis rules Europe in some measure because the UK has been semi-detached in its involvement, IMO.


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## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> Here in Madrid the buying of the bus service by National Express has doubled the fares - another example of why I think the spanish government has not got a clue. But many of these things will not impact ex-pats until the revolution.
> 
> .


I had heard that Nat. Exp had bought Continental Auto and ALSA, but not the Madrid bus service. Do you have any info on this please??


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## MartinJames

mrypg9 said:


> All Governments, whether Labour or Tory, have delivered boom and bust and have 'got us into debt'.. As you say, it's an inevitable part of a free market economy. I have said on another thread that we have made a grave error in decoupling economics from history.
> The money the Government got from Stamp Duty would probably not cover the amount paid out in bonuses to fat cats. Most of the banks that had to be bailed out have paid back considerable sums back to the Exchequer and the taxpayer stands to make an eventual profit as is the case in the UK.
> As for the unregulated borrowing and uncurbed financial speculation...who is to blame??
> You could go back to Thatcher's 'Big Bang' in the 80s which allowed foreign financial institutions to trade in London. This free-for-all was deliberately encouraged by the Blair and Brown Governments. But it also led to London being the world's financial capital and to finance contributing some 20% of the nation's wealth.
> Booms sustained by uncontrolled credit wrren't invented by Labour - remember the Lawson boom? But we all enjoy the good times when they roll.
> As for the EU - it has achieved some successes and some failures. The Franco-German axis rules Europe in some measure because the UK has been semi-detached in its involvement, IMO.


Of course the importance of history matters. knowing this, give us a better understanding to make informed decisions in delicate matters such as religious, political, and economic freedoms. We need to learn by our mistakes. It does mean we learn to adapt or change because history teaches us this.
*The Lessons of Easter Island* The Easter Islanders, aware that they were almost completely isolated from the rest of the world, must surely have realised that their very existence depended on the limited resources of a small island. After all it was small enough for them to walk round the entire island in a day or so and see for themselves what was happening to the forests. Instead vital resources were steadily consumed until finally none were left. The fate of Easter Island has wider implications too. Like Easter Island the earth has only limited resources to support human society and all its demands. Like the islanders, the human population of the earth has no practical means of escape. How has the environment of the world shaped human history and how have people shaped and altered the world in which they live? Have other societies fallen into the same trap as the islanders? For the last two million years humans have succeeded in obtaining more food and extracting more resources on which to sustain increasing numbers of people and increasingly complex and technologically advanced societies. 
But have they been any more successful than the islanders in finding a way of life that does not fatally deplete the resources that are available to them and irreversibly damage their life support system?

London may have been the world's financial capital. But what about the UK’s manufacture sector? There are more skilled people working in Tesco’s 

Are people in the UK aware of how depressed the Spanish economy is? Yes


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## SteveHall

Depressing:

Data released by the Ministry of Employment has revealed that unemployment in Spain increased by 25.4 percent last year and the jobless count is now just under 4 million.

The figures show the number of unemployed people at 3,923, 602, of which 794,640 were added last year. This number is the highest since the introduction of comparable counting systems in 1996.

However, the increase in the number of people without jobs was slightly lesser when compared to 2008, when the number of unemployed people increased by as much as 999,416.

Unemployment was seen to rise over all economic sectors and only 14,021,837 new contracts were given last year, which is 15.5 percent less than 2008.

This report from the Ministry of Employment has come at a time when the Spanish economy has been showing signs of a ‘double-dip recession’ as it has not managed to climb out of the clutches of the downturn as other economies from the European Union

From Spanish News


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## mrypg9

Thanks for that, Steve. As you say,very depressing. I also read that 42% of Spain's young people between 18 and 25 are 'ni-nis' the Spanish equivalent of the UK'S NEETS (not in education, employment or training, for those mystified)
An interesting article in last week's Observer put a part of the blame for the dire state of the economy on over-reliance on tourism and the decision to make Spain the 'Florida of Europe'.
I'm a great supporter of the EU in principle but I can't help thinking that John Major's -and Gordon Brown's -decision to stay out of the Eurozone was correct.
Spain's problems could be partially solved by a devaluation but that's impossible whilst in the Eurozone and it's unthinkable that it could leave. It would take months to print the new money etc and there would in the meantime be a huge rush of Euros out of Spanish banks and other institutions into those in Germany. It's also very hard to see how a country which had to create a new devalued currency could attract investors to its bonds and gilts.
But...if Greece or any of the PIIGS defaults or loses its international credit rating -would Germany and France break the Eurozone rules and bail them out??
We live in interesting times.....


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## Guest

SteveHall said:


> This report from the Ministry of Employment has come at a time when the Spanish economy has been showing signs of a ‘double-dip recession’ as it has not managed to climb out of the clutches of the downturn as other economies from the European Union
> 
> From Spanish News


Was watching a Newsnight report where one economist was forecasting a double-dip effect for the UK, and mentioned that the public finances of some 16(?) EU states were in a dire state, to the point that not only sterling but the euro was under threat. 

Most of the stuff we hear for public consumption is total rubbish I reckon, and as for the so-called recovering economies of Germany and France? I liked the analogy of one panelist, who likened the effect to that of a firecracker being used to try to set a pile of damp wood alight. There's the impression of a big blaze, but it soon begins to fizzle out as the fuel is exhausted, whereupon the fire is in danger of immediately going out again. 

If you live in France you know that things are still bad, and there are few signs of improvement. As for the UK, it's supposed to be out of recession next quarter, but I suspect that's just because of the billions that have been pumped into the economy plus the Christmas effect. It's the following quarter where we'll begin to get a better picture of what's going on. The trouble with the UK and Spain is that growth has been built on very shaky, if different foundations in recent times.


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## jojo

My BIL is the managing director of a multi national german company and behind closed doors the germans are fully aware that they are not as "out of recession" as their goverment and media make out. According to him the german economy is a "house of cards" waiting to be knocked down! 

I dont think anyone knows whats really happening (even those who should!?), so all we can do is live in our little bubbles and enjoy what we have. I have never been one to believe in published facts and figures

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

frogblogger said:


> Was watching a Newsnight report where one economist was forecasting a double-dip effect for the UK, and mentioned that the public finances of some 16(?) EU states were in a dire state, to the point that not only sterling but the euro was under threat.
> 
> Most of the stuff we hear for public consumption is total rubbish I reckon, and as for the so-called recovering economies of Germany and France? I liked the analogy of one panelist, who likened the effect to that of a firecracker being used to try to set a pile of damp wood alight. There's the impression of a big blaze, but it soon begins to fizzle out as the fuel is exhausted, whereupon the fire is in danger of immediately going out again.
> 
> If you live in France you know that things are still bad, and there are few signs of improvement. As for the UK, it's supposed to be out of recession next quarter, but I suspect that's just because of the billions that have been pumped into the economy plus the Christmas effect. It's the following quarter where we'll begin to get a better picture of what's going on. The trouble with the UK and Spain is that growth has been built on very shaky, if different foundations in recent times.


I saw that programme and I agree with you about the stuff for public consumption. Some time ago Will Hutton said there should be a blackout on all economic news until the recession is over and I suspect he was only half joking.
Also agree with your comments on Spain and the UK. 
We have many discussions _chez nous_ as to how to deal with the deficit. My solution is to follow the Swedish and Canadian road: total freeze on all public spending, rise to 20% VAT, 1% increase on all tax rates for a defined period. 
I know this means short term pain but the sad truth is that we have delivered ourselves to the markets and if they don't get their pound of flesh the pain will be longer and more intense.
A curse on neo-con economic theories and all who preach and practise them :boxing:


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## mickybob

mrypg9 said:


> But...if Greece or any of the PIIGS defaults or loses its international credit rating -would Germany and France break the Eurozone rules and bail them out??
> We live in interesting times.....



From what I am reading and hearing on the news in Ireland, Germany is already bailing out Irland. We are going to them for over 55 BILLION EURO to buy the developers bad debts. Europe is very good at one thing, getting round it's own rules.


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## mrypg9

mickybob said:


> From what I am reading and hearing on the news in Ireland, Germany is already bailing out Irland. We are going to them for over 55 BILLION EURO to buy the developers bad debts. Europe is very good at one thing, getting round it's own rules.


Haven't seen or heard that on UK news today and I usually listen to Radio 4 Today in the morning. I'll have a look for it in The Economist if it gets delivered tomorrow. But in principle you are right, rules are often 'bent' to suit developing economic situations..
Buying up developers debts isn't quite the same as buying government debt, though. The rules of the Eurozone explicitly prohibit the bailing out of one member by another but if Greece or ROI defaults what can be done?
I don't know much about the construction boom in ROI. Who was buying all these properties?


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> My BIL is the managing director of a multi national german company and behind closed doors the germans are fully aware that they are not as "out of recession" as their goverment and media make out. According to him the german economy is a "house of cards" waiting to be knocked down!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


But Germany is still -just -the world's largest exporter. They are in a much better position than any other EU state. Not much exposure to 'toxic' loans, low level of personal borrowing, secure international credit rating etc etc.
IMO Germany's biggest mistake was in the early 1990s when Kohl assimilated the East German Mark at 1:1 parity. The fact that the two halves united with so few short-term problems was a second Wirtschaftswunder! But they're still in the medium-term, historically speaking.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> But Germany is still -just -the world's largest exporter. They are in a much better position than any other EU state. Not much exposure to 'toxic' loans, low level of personal borrowing, secure international credit rating etc etc.
> IMO Germany's biggest mistake was in the early 1990s when Kohl assimilated the East German Mark at 1:1 parity. The fact that the two halves united with so few short-term problems was a second Wirtschaftswunder! But they're still in the medium-term, historically speaking.


Then they increased tax by 1% "for 1 year only " to pay for re-unification that my brother is still paying now! Did you see the report last year where it said 26% of Germans would like the wall rebuilt as they were better off before?


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## mickybob

mrypg9 said:


> Haven't seen or heard that on UK news today and I usually listen to Radio 4 Today in the morning. I'll have a look for it in The Economist if it gets delivered tomorrow. But in principle you are right, rules are often 'bent' to suit developing economic situations..
> Buying up developers debts isn't quite the same as buying government debt, though. The rules of the Eurozone explicitly prohibit the bailing out of one member by another but if Greece or ROI defaults what can be done?
> I don't know much about the construction boom in ROI. Who was buying all these properties?


This was reported over three weeks ago, wont be in the morning paper, sorry.
They are not buying up developers debts, it's the banks debts that they are buying. This is to recapitalise the banks, I'm surprised Spain isn't doing it as well.
As for who was buying the properties, no one was in the end, thats the problem. It was like piramid selling. Sell a few houses, build some more, charge more, banks loan more, people pay more. And on it went untill no one could afford them and the bubble burst, just like in Spain, we have our half built estates, unfineshed roads etc. Just what will hapen to these empty, half built properties no one knows.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Then they increased tax by 1% "for 1 year only " to pay for re-unification that my brother is still paying now! Did you see the report last year where it said 26% of Germans would like the wall rebuilt as they were better off before?


No but I know it from my visits to Germany. Same kind of thing in the Czech Republic - the Communist Party still gets between 10 and 17% of the vote in national and regional elections and is the third largest party.
It's mainly old people who truly haven't benefited from the change to a democracy and a market economy and think the country is going to the dogs. Also some idealistic younger people who have had no experience of life under 'socialism'.
I guess Kohl wanted to be remembered in history as the man who brought about reunification.
Never mind the bill for it all...


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