# Is/Was Living in Spain your dream?



## Evilbungle

Purely out of curiosity - as I was Reading the post about feeling like a visitor in the UK - I started to wonder if moving to Spain was a dream to most of you long before you did it?

Did you want to move to Spain? or Just leave your country? if so why? 
For me it is ironic, up to two years ago I had never been to Spain and always thought it was the one place I never wanted to go. I had been to every country in Europe except for Spain and Portugal but it always seemed too touristy for me. Then two years ago we went on a Cruise that went to Spain and Portugal and I still wasn't convinced but thought at least it was another two countries ticked off the list that I wouldn't have to visit again. Then last year my Daughter begged to go to Port Adventura and although I had no wish to go back to Spain we came back for the week and I thought that I was definitely done with Spain (I'm not saying we didn't have a good time but I am not a fan of swimming pools, water parks or beaches so Salou didn't have a lot to interest me.)

Then less than a year later, I have an apartment overlooking the Mediterranean in the centre of a very sought after town, The beach is a two minute stroll from my front door, Barcelona city centre just a thirty minute train ride away, we have two swimming pools and a tennis court in our complex - I am living the dream, but unfortunately whilst it is a dream that seems to be shared by thousands I was not one of them. (Again I am not knocking Spain and I am trying to fully embrace the country and culture, just it is not something I ever wanted, or even considered.)

Anyone else like me an expat by mistake? (Not really a mistake but a too good to turn down opportunity.) or was everyone else fulfilling a dream?


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## Pesky Wesky

Evilbungle said:


> Purely out of curiosity - as I was Reading the post about feeling like a visitor in the UK - I started to wonder if moving to Spain was a dream to most of you long before you did it?
> 
> Did you want to move to Spain? or Just leave your country? if so why?
> For me it is ironic, up to two years ago I had never been to Spain and always thought it was the one place I never wanted to go. I had been to every country in Europe except for Spain and Portugal but it always seemed too touristy for me. Then two years ago we went on a Cruise that went to Spain and Portugal and I still wasn't convinced but thought at least it was another two countries ticked off the list that I wouldn't have to visit again. Then last year my Daughter begged to go to Port Adventura and although I had no wish to go back to Spain we came back for the week and I thought that I was definitely done with Spain (I'm not saying we didn't have a good time but I am not a fan of swimming pools, water parks or beaches so Salou didn't have a lot to interest me.)
> 
> Then less than a year later, I have an apartment overlooking the Mediterranean in the centre of a very sought after town, The beach is a two minute stroll from my front door, Barcelona city centre just a thirty minute train ride away, we have two swimming pools and a tennis court in our complex - I am living the dream, but unfortunately whilst it is a dream that seems to be shared by thousands I was not one of them. (Again I am not knocking Spain and I am trying to fully embrace the country and culture, just it is not something I ever wanted, or even considered.)
> 
> Anyone else like me an expat by mistake? (Not really a mistake but a too good to turn down opportunity.) or was everyone else fulfilling a dream?


No, living in Spain was never my dream, and living in a town outside Madrid wasn't/ isn't either, but I've been in this town for 22 years now and in Spain for 30. 
I'm not unhappy about it, but it's not my dream.


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## Lynn R

Until I was in my forties I had never really given a thought to living anywhere other than in the UK. But I confess the germ of the idea came from watching the "Place in the Sun" type programmes because it opened my eyes to the fact that seemingly "ordinary" people with ordinary jobs, like me, could do that and it was not just the preserve of the wealthy. That was what gave me the impetus to start researching options.

I wanted to be able to retire to a country with a better climate than the UK and one where my income in retirement would go further. I discounted France and Italy because the cost of living was too high. Had once had romantic ideas about living on a small Greek island but a taste of just how difficult that life could be outside of the holiday season, when I was literally trapped on a tiny island in October with no ferries able to run because of storms and even the water supply ran out soon put paid to that. So our main choices were Spain or Portugal, both of which we'd visited many times and liked. I'm sure we would have been happy in either but Portugal got crossed off the list eventually as I felt the language would be more difficult to learn and the infrastructure in terms of things like public transport and health services was not so good as in Spain.

So here we are! We were able to move, due to a combination of unexpected circumstances, several years before we thought we'd be able to, and ten years of extra retirement has been an absolute joy. No regrets about our choice of destination.


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## snikpoh

Likewise, I never dreamt of living in Spain. Circumstances changed and we ended up here.

The town we are in just happened by chance and we are now very happy here.


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## The Skipper

Lynn R said:


> Until I was in my forties I had never really given a thought to living anywhere other than in the UK. But I confess the germ of the idea came from watching the "Place in the Sun" type programmes because it opened my eyes to the fact that seemingly "ordinary" people with ordinary jobs, like me, could do that and it was not just the preserve of the wealthy. That was what gave me the impetus to start researching options.
> 
> I wanted to be able to retire to a country with a better climate than the UK and one where my income in retirement would go further. I discounted France and Italy because the cost of living was too high. Had once had romantic ideas about living on a small Greek island but a taste of just how difficult that life could be outside of the holiday season, when I was literally trapped on a tiny island in October with no ferries able to run because of storms and even the water supply ran out soon put paid to that. So our main choices were Spain or Portugal, both of which we'd visited many times and liked. I'm sure we would have been happy in either but Portugal got crossed off the list eventually as I felt the language would be more difficult to learn and the infrastructure in terms of things like public transport and health services was not so good as in Spain.
> 
> So here we are! We were able to move, due to a combination of unexpected circumstances, several years before we thought we'd be able to, and ten years of extra retirement has been an absolute joy. No regrets about our choice of destination.


Exactly the same for me! And have never looked back!


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## Mushu7

I have always wanted to live abroad, as a child I wished I was American, as a teenager I was about to move to Cyprus but then met my now husband.

His job in the Army has just set alight my bug for wanting to live abroad. Every posting my husbands 3 chosen options were overseas [Cyprus, Germany, Belguim], but he would always get UK postings, and it seemed the guys who put UK postings would always get overseas. He did get Germany once, but that changed to Aldershot.

So for the last 10 years really I’ve longed to live abroad. It was last year that made me want to put it into action. Sitting on the terrace of our room in an evening, I just kept thinking I could do a hard days work and come back to this. It would certainly beat my current routine. I am a bit of a freezer, I hate the British weather, even in the British summer I am very rarely warm as I would be on holiday. I despise waking up in the morning and struggling to find something to wear because you don’t know what the weathers like. Course its not all about the weather, it’s the lifestyle. The outdoor lifestyle. The language, the culture.

Sept 18 is my goal date now after looking at finances today. I spoke to removals yesterday to get estimated cost, and with all the finances I have to save and job related efforts, Sept 18 IS IT. Kids would start school then as well so it sounds right.

Moving abroad is in the blood of our families. My Grandad move from Ireland to Wales. My MIL moved to Florida (now shes back here, ahhhh) and my FIL lives in Spain already.


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## jennyx

Was never my dream but the odd holiday and nice experiences (and lack of ties in the UK) meant "Why not?". Not aquainted with anyone else who has done it so have kind of gone it alone with my OH. Best decision of my life!


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## Lynn R

Mushu7 said:


> I despise waking up in the morning and struggling to find something to wear because you don’t know what the weathers like.


You have gettiing up on winter mornings in Spain when it feels very cold, piling on the sweaters, then feeling too hot by 11.00 am and takiing them off again, then feeling cold at 5pm when the sun goes down and piling the sweaters back on again, to look forward to.


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## Mushu7

Lynn R said:


> You have gettiing up on winter mornings in Spain when it feels very cold, piling on the sweaters, then feeling too hot by 11.00 am and takiing them off again, then feeling cold at 5pm when the sun goes down and piling the sweaters back on again, to look forward to.


Bring it on, certainly beats fluffy socks and scarfs in the summer.


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## Niimus

I had a vague notion of retiring to Spain but that's still a few years off ... then UK politics hit an all time low with the Brexit insanity - 24th June I decided it was time to leave - even though I still have 5 years to retirement ... now in just 17 days i'm off to Seville for a new episode in my life.


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## Chica22

Until I met my husband I had never set foot in Spain, to me Spain was Benidorm, LLoret de Mar etc., and although I had never visited those places I did have a negatigve perception of them. Holidays with friends were anywhere but Spain (Portugal, Italy, France etc.). 

Then I met my husband (nearly35 years ago) in a nightclub in a Northern town. I obviously knew he wasnt English as he had an accent!!!! However I did think (or hoped) he was Italian or French!!! I was totally shocked when I found out he was Spanish.

A year later he took me to Spain. As soon as I set foot on Spanish soil I just felt as though I 'belonged', I just adored it, the smells, the food, the culture. It took us nearly 25 years to be able to leave the rat race in the UK and come and live in Spain. I would have come here far earlier, but my husband had a good job and for him a decent pension and money in the bank were important.

My husband still misses certain aspects of the UK especially M & S!!!! I dont miss a thing, and for me Spain is where I belong.

In our house, conversations sometimes go along the lines of the following:

Husband: Shall we go out for English breakfast
Me: Only if it is a place that sells decent coffee and tostadas

Husband: Shall we go out tonight, I fancy English fish and chips
Me: We can go to the chiringuito for chipirones and a salad.


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## Mushu7

Niimus said:


> I had a vague notion of retiring to Spain but that's still a few years off ... then UK politics hit an all time low with the Brexit insanity - 24th June I decided it was time to leave - even though I still have 5 years to retirement ... now in just 17 days i'm off to Seville for a new episode in my life.


Good on you. Wish you all the best with your move.

Retirement isn’t my favourite subject at the moment. At the tender age of 30, and with my current retirement age 68 (state pension if one still exists by then and my new works pension age). They have another 38 years to play around with my retirement age and pension. Which is exactly why I am going to move soon. I may well have to work until I’m in my 70s, but I am going to do it somewhere nice and warm.


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## tebo53

Some years ago I was a true brit, I would have nothing said against GB. Then a few years ago the country got greedy and turned against its own people with being more interested in looking good in the world by trying to support everything and everyone except it's own people. That is when I fell out with the UK.

It became our dream to live in Spain after many, many holidays here and falling in love with the country and it's people who were always so welcoming. That was 10 years ago and after that we worked our socks off and took out several more pensions and made plans to pay off the mortgage early. 

We eventually managed all our goals and retired 2 years early and moved out to make our dreams come true.we have never regretted our decision and love it here. We've made loads of Spanish and expat friends who are never short of a laugh. We visit our son in the UK but are always glad to get back "home"

Love it!

Steve


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## Pesky Wesky

Before coming to Spain I also thought it was all like the areas in the south where there are lots of foreigners living together in areas built almost specifically for them. 
I soon realised that Spain is very big, that the regions are very different, that it's not all sun and sand and that there are many beautiful places here that are green and mountainous, which is how I like it.


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## mrypg9

I intensely dislike that phrase 'Spanish dream'. Many people who come to Spain to find it often end up living the Spanish nightmare as they have a totally unrealistic view of what life in Spain is really like, especially if they plan to move over families and look for work.
I also think that if the content of your dreams consists of sun with a bit of beach and a few palm trees thrown in .....you need to aim for a better class of dream.
That may sound sour but the fact is that life goes on along the same lines and is what you make of it wherever you find yourself in the world. Having enough money to live your chosen lifestyle is essential too....sunshine doesn't really relieve misery when the money runs out.
WE left the UK eleven years ago and spent three years in Prague. Our first choice was Canada, we bought a property there but it was too cold in winter, too hot in summer and too far away. Our second choice was Amsterdam but the part of the city we liked was far beyond our means, alas.
So Prague, a city I knew well, having spent [periods of time there for over forty years.
Spending holidays in a place and living there are two totally different things and after three years we'd had enough of Prague. Our family has property in Spain so we decided to give it a try. I hated the first few months here. We rented an apartment, big mistake as we'd never lived in a flat before and I couldn't get used to having people so close. The apartment was in a community with many British people, all very nice, but it seemed strange to wake up to blue skies, palm trees and English voices.
Then we found the house we have been living in for over seven years, on the edge of a quiet village, near two towns, lovely Spanish neighbours and here we will stay. Forever. We had planned a few years here then a year in France then ending our days in Glasgow's Merchant City but this is our home.
I came with no expectations and few hopes but I wake up each day feeling thankful I live here. 
You just have to find the spot that suits you. Dreaming doesn't help, really.


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## tebo53

mrypg9 said:


> I intensely dislike that phrase 'Spanish dream'. Many people who come to Spain to find it often end up living the Spanish nightmare as they have a totally unrealistic view of what life in Spain is really like, especially if they plan to move over families and look for work.
> I also think that if the content of your dreams consists of sun with a bit of beach and a few palm trees thrown in .....you need to aim for a better class of dream.
> That may sound sour but the fact is that life goes on along the same lines and is what you make of it wherever you find yourself in the world. Having enough money to live your chosen lifestyle is essential too....sunshine doesn't really relieve misery when the money runs out.
> WE left the UK eleven years ago and spent three years in Prague. Our first choice was Canada, we bought a property there but it was too cold in winter, too hot in summer and too far away. Our second choice was Amsterdam but the part of the city we liked was far beyond our means, alas.
> So Prague, a city I knew well, having spent [periods of time there for over forty years.
> Spending holidays in a place and living there are two totally different things and after three years we'd had enough of Prague. Our family has property in Spain so we decided to give it a try. I hated the first few months here. We rented an apartment, big mistake as we'd never lived in a flat before and I couldn't get used to having people so close. The apartment was in a community with many British people, all very nice, but it seemed strange to wake up to blue skies, palm trees and English voices.
> Then we found the house we have been living in for over seven years, on the edge of a quiet village, near two towns, lovely Spanish neighbours and here we will stay. Forever. We had planned a few years here then a year in France then ending our days in Glasgow's Merchant City but this is our home.
> I came with no expectations and few hopes but I wake up each day feeling thankful I live here.
> You just have to find the spot that suits you. Dreaming doesn't help, really.


Yes that does sound very sour.....you obviously didn't sound out the places you went to live as eventually none suited. We called it the Spanish dream because thats what it was. We checked everything out from start to finish, what we wanted and what we could have and afford.

We spent many extra hours at work doing overtime etc and saving hard and yes, us like many are able to afford to have the sun and sand lifestyle.

Your misadventures have obviously turned you against taking a chance :amen:

Steve


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## mrypg9

tebo53 said:


> Yes that does sound very sour.....you obviously didn't sound out the places you went to live as eventually none suited. We called it the Spanish dream because thats what it was. We checked everything out from start to finish, what we wanted and what we could have and afford.
> 
> We spent many extra hours at work doing overtime etc and saving hard and yes, us like many are able to afford to have the sun and sand lifestyle.
> 
> Your misadventures have obviously turned you against taking a chance :amen:
> 
> Steve


What 'misadventures'?  What do you mean, 'we didn't sound out the places we
wanted to live as eventually none suited'? 
For your information, I had been visiting Prague for extensive periods since 1969. Ditto Canada since 1979. We had also spent a lot of time in Amsterdam, a city we revisited frequently after leaving the UK. So we had plenty of time to make up our minds about where we wanted to live.
I actually enjoyed my three years in Prague and my time in Canada but wanted to see more of the world before settling down. 
I think we probably 'checked out' where we wanted to finally live very thoroughly. I have no idea what you found in my post that suggested otherwise.

So to say 'none suited' just isn't the case. Spain 'suits' very much, as I thought I'd made clear.

If your 'Spanish dream' has turned out to be just that, good for you. The fact is that like many other posters I didn't 'dream' of Spain - I just happened to find I liked it better than anywhere else I've lived, to my surprise.

As for 'turning me against taking a chance'.....most sensible people don't 'take a chance' on where they decide to live. They plan carefully, sometimes like us try different places.

And I didn't live abroad on the proceeds of a lottery win. We too worked hard before taking early retirement and travelling.
Not everyone who comes here is as lucky as I -or you - have been. Many come, try their luck and go home sadder but wiser.. Fact.
Thousands of Brits have gone back to the UK over the last few years.


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## Pesky Wesky

tebo53 said:


> Yes that does sound very sour.....you obviously didn't sound out the places you went to live as eventually none suited. We called it the Spanish dream because thats what it was. We checked everything out from start to finish, what we wanted and what we could have and afford.
> 
> We spent many extra hours at work doing overtime etc and saving hard and yes, us like many are able to afford to have the sun and sand lifestyle.
> 
> Your misadventures have obviously turned you against taking a chance :amen:
> 
> Steve


I agree that many people make "mistakes" when they go to live in other countries. On the other hand, I'm a great believer in the power of learning from mistakes. I also think that negative experiences (not necessarily mistakes like taking a shiit job because you need money) can teach a lot.
On the other hand at university I "knew" I wanted to travel when none of my friends had the inkling and I knew I wanted to go to South America. Talk about naive, but I _did_ go. I went to Colombia with a job, lots of enthusiasm, youth and the knowledge that if I needed help my parents would send money and little else.
And I did more or less the same when I came here, so I've had a lot of potential to make mistakes but I don't think I did, and I've had a great time in both countries. 
I think one reason things worked out was that I already had work sorted and another is that I had nothing in the UK except immediate family and friends, no property, no job (I'd just left uni), no children to think of, no house, no furniture - just me.


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## baldilocks

We had been long considering where to retire to (more MY retirement since SWMBO is 18 years younger than I) and had been researching using books and the local library since about 1993. I had a list of countries with which we had some connection (family, holidays, language, etc.):
Colombia, Spain, Portugal, France, UK, USA, etc

One by one, for various reasons, they were crossed off the list - USA (cost of medical insurance), Colombia (crime, financial uncertainty, etc), UK (cost of property, weather, cost of living, etc) France (high taxation, etc.), Portugal (SWMBO said that, at her age, she didn't want to learn another language, etc) and eventually it came down to Spain.

Various circumstances changed and in 2001 the in-laws moved to Florida with hardly anything left following the collapse of a bank in Colombia. We helped them find and furnish a flat and subsequently bought them a villa using an interest-only mortgage. F-i-l died from Cancer in 2005. This made a change in our plans since it was obvious we would have to take m-i-l under our wing. 

We brought m-i-l over to UK for Christmas in 2005 and went on a quickie five day trip to Spain, visiting Córdoba, Granada, Ronda and Sevilla. The villa was, by now on the market but not selling. Eventually changed realtor and villa sold (2007) and we moved the m-i-l to UK; got rid of what we could back to the second-hand places that most it had come from. Arranged for the rest (mostly paintings and a couple of bits of furniture) to go into store pending shipment to Spain.

In the meantime, we had been looking for a place in Spain and September 2007 we had found just what we wanted and put down a sizeable deposit (extending our UK mortgage.) Fortunately the sellers were in no hurry since they were having a new place built next to their son. We put our flat in UK on the market. September 2008, we again extended the mortgage on the flat and paid off the balance on the house in Spain with a plan to move at the beginning of November. The existing occupants moved into the empty house next door.

We moved and this November, it will be eight years. We have found a community (a village of less than 5,000) of warm friendly people just like those I remember from my childhood in a village in Essex. You could say that we have found our dream - somewhere to live that is affordable and healthy, amongst nice people, in an agreeable (most of the time) climate. We all like mountains (SWMBO was born and brought up in the high Andes, her mother lived there for over 50 years) and although these aren't that big (4,000 ft) they give a nice feel to the place.


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## Mushu7

I think it is difficult for some of the older generation to relate to why younger people - with families and no job lined up - like me are so desperate to move and 'live the dream' regardless of whether it's Spain or not.

Working life has changed drastically. In my 14 years of work alone. Just recently I could retire at 60 and receive a decent works pension. But literally overnight that was taken from me and now my work pension age mirrors my state pension age ... 68! I have no doubt that will change again (after all they now have 38 years to diicckk about with it).

The thought of all that means I have to make dreams a reality. Whether they work out or not is another story. I'm being realistic by not selling my UK home so if it all goes belly up at least I have a roof over my head.

For me the sun makes hell of a difference to my state of mind. I am instantly happy, I want to go out and do things. Even exercise, eating more fruit, eating better etc. It's a whole lifestyle change. 

The driving force is how bad things are getting being young working age parents. 

And this isn't an anti pensioners post. But if you've done your stint or been lucky enough to retire early, bare a though for those who are getting stripped of that and want a way out.

Even though the economy isn't great in Spainit it is no different to the UK, however that sunshine makes the day a lot brighter.

Long live dreams and ambitions


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## mrypg9

There's another reason I dislike the 'dream' phrase..
When we got here in 2008 over three million Spaniards were unemployed. A couple of years later and SIX MILLION - over 25% of the workforce - were unemployed. Hundreds of thousands of families were being evicted from their homes and millions were living in poverty.
I suppose it was possible to not know about that or ignore it if you lived in your mainly immigrant world but for anyone with any inkling of everyday life for most Spanish people it was impossible to close your eyes and lie back in your deckchair in your dream world.
Some of us on this Forum are actively involved in political life, charity organisations and voluntary work of many kinds. Some help with food collections, others in soup kitchens.
So whilst a few immigrants may indeed be living the 'dream' and good luck to them, there is a different world beyond the beach.
In our nearest town unemployment dropped during the season because of an exceptionally good year for tourism. Now the figure will no doubt rise to last year's 30% when the hotels shed staff.
Many of those seasonal workers lucky enough to get jobs were working over twelve hours a day for less than 10 euros an hour.
I suppose you could say that's got nothing to do with Mr and Mrs retired British immigrant happily enjoying their life in Spain. It's possible to get on with life and not think abut the Spanish economy, the possible third round of elections and so on..
But very many of us don't want that kind of almost literal ;head in sand' lifestyle. We came to live IN Spain and for us that means sharing or at least knowing about the lives and hopes of our Spanish neighbours.
For far too many, life is still far from a dream.
I had a good day today. OH and I went into Estepona, had breakfast out, went to the ADANA perrera, walked and played with a few of our dogs, came back, had dinner and have just returned from walking our dogs in the campo. On our way back to the car we saw a young Spanish man, homeless, who carries a small tent around and finds a place to settle for the night. We usually see him when we walk the dogs early in the morning. 
Young, no home, no job. No 'dream'. 
I love my life here. Plenty to do, lots of friends, a home we love.
We are lucky.
We had a good life in the UK too so we didn't need to dream about a different one.
Just a thought....why always the Spanish dream? Why not the French dream? The Italian dream? The Canadian dream even?

As for the American dream...Elyes will know all about that...


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## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> I think it is difficult for some of the older generation to relate to why younger people - with families and no job lined up - like me are so desperate to move and 'live the dream' regardless of whether it's Spain or not.
> .


Almost 60% of young Spanish people have no job and no hope of getting one.

Tens of thousands of Spaniards are leaving Spain to work in the UK and Germany.

I have yet to hear of a Spaniard retiring to the UK and I doubt it's the weather that deters them!

You can't 'live the dream' anywhere in the world without the means to do so which means a job or a lottery win, sadly.


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## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> I think it is difficult for some of the older generation to relate to why younger people - with families and no job lined up - like me are so desperate to move and 'live the dream' regardless of whether it's Spain or not.
> 
> Working life has changed drastically. In my 14 years of work alone. Just recently I could retire at 60 and receive a decent works pension. But literally overnight that was taken from me and now my work pension age mirrors my state pension age ... 68! I have no doubt that will change again (after all they now have 38 years to diicckk about with it).
> 
> The thought of all that means I have to make dreams a reality. Whether they work out or not is another story. I'm being realistic by not selling my UK home so if it all goes belly up at least I have a roof over my head.
> 
> For me the sun makes hell of a difference to my state of mind. I am instantly happy, I want to go out and do things. Even exercise, eating more fruit, eating better etc. It's a whole lifestyle change.
> 
> The driving force is how bad things are getting being young working age parents.
> 
> And this isn't an anti pensioners post. But if you've done your stint or been lucky enough to retire early, bare a though for those who are getting stripped of that and want a way out.
> 
> Even though the economy isn't great in Spainit it is no different to the UK, however that sunshine makes the day a lot brighter.
> 
> Long live dreams and ambitions


I don't find it hard to understand why young people find the idea of coming to Spain attractive. I did it myself at 26 after all.
But as mrypg9 points out if there's no money coming in to your pocket in Spain and with the unemployment figures as they are, (and they are _very different_ to the UK) coming to Spain without work is an adventure to say the least.
If young people want to come and they want to stay, which I think the majority don't, then I think the job market has to be sussed out first.
The figures are much much batter north of Madrid so it would be worth your while sussing out some places there like Bilbao, Burgos, maybe Santander...
PS Retirement age in Spain is 67 atm with very little prospect of a pension at the end of it. Please don't think I'm bent on giving you bad news, but if you want to be serious about your quest to come to Spain then you have to know what real life is like here.


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## baldilocks

Mushu7 said:


> *I think it is difficult for some of the older generation to relate to why younger people - with families and no job lined up - like me are so desperate to move and 'live the dream' regardless of whether it's Spain or not.*


Personally, as a 75 year old, I find your comment far from being in the best of taste. 

Do you think we haven't known hardship and I mean real hardship not what many of the younger ones think is hardship, not being able to afford irrelevancies to their basic living needs. If you were to suggest that instead of having a big Mac and chips with a large coke at McDs, they perhaps have some left over meat minced up with carrots and onions and a bit of mashed potato on top, they would probably be horrified, but that is what we are having for lunch tomorrow.


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## Mushu7

baldilocks said:


> Personally, as a 75 year old, I find your comment far from being in the best of taste.
> 
> Do you think we haven't known hardship and I mean real hardship not what many of the younger ones think is hardship, not being able to afford irrelevancies to their basic living needs. If you were to suggest that instead of having a big Mac and chips with a large coke at McDs, they perhaps have some left over meat minced up with carrots and onions and a bit of mashed potato on top, they would probably be horrified, but that is what we are having for lunch tomorrow.


Baldilocks I did quite clearly state that this is not a pension bashing post. Reaching 75 is amazing. I will no doubt still be required to work at that age without a state pension to enjoy because that would be non existant - which I am contributing to btw.

Every generation has had hardships. You are having a go at me for not appreciating your real hardships whilst debunking the hardships faced by my generation, which are also very real and not as dismissive as your mcdonalds anecdote.


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## Mushu7

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't find it hard to understand why young people find the idea of coming to Spain attractive. I did it myself at 26 after all.
> But as mrypg9 points out if there's no money coming in to your pocket in Spain and with the unemployment figures as they are, (and they are _very different_ to the UK) coming to Spain without work is an adventure to say the least.
> If young people want to come and they want to stay, which I think the majority don't, then I think the job market has to be sussed out first.
> The figures are much much batter north of Madrid so it would be worth your while sussing out some places there like Bilbao, Burgos, maybe Santander...
> PS Retirement age in Spain is 67 atm with very little prospect of a pension at the end of it. Please don't think I'm bent on giving you bad news, but if you want to be serious about your quest to come to Spain then you have to know what real life is like here.


Coming out to Spain with an airy fairy attitude (unless you have money behind you) is a recipe for disaster. Most people who are serious about moving anywhere will do the necessary research with a realistic hat on. For each searcher the outcomes will be different, because we will always compare to what our life is like now.

Your post ref the retirement age in Spain will little prospect of a pension. I a pretty certain that I will have no state pension when I reach retirement age in UK. I had planned to leep up with NI contributions when I left, but I wouldnt bother now. I can either stay in the UK and have no state pension, or move to Spain and have no state pension. I'm not going to have a state pension wherever I live, I;ve resigned myself to that.

This forum is of course useful and has been amazing in helping me research, I'm also lucky that my in laws have lived in SPain for donkeys years and can offer advice from their point of view to.

Wealth of knowledge and info out there.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> Coming out to Spain with an airy fairy attitude (unless you have money behind you) is a recipe for disaster. Most people who are serious about moving anywhere will do the necessary research with a realistic hat on. For each searcher the outcomes will be different, because we will always compare to what our life is like now.
> 
> Your post ref the retirement age in Spain will little prospect of a pension. I a pretty certain that I will have no state pension when I reach retirement age in UK. I had planned to leep up with NI contributions when I left, but I wouldnt bother now. I can either stay in the UK and have no state pension, or move to Spain and have no state pension. I'm not going to have a state pension wherever I live, I;ve resigned myself to that.
> 
> This forum is of course useful and has been amazing in helping me research, I'm also lucky that my in laws have lived in SPain for donkeys years and can offer advice from their point of view to.
> 
> Wealth of knowledge and info out there.


Airy fairy! I haven't heard that expression in a while 
The thing is I do see a fair number of posts from people with a pretty unrealistic idea of what coming to Spain is like. We don't get too many now, but there was a time when we got a regular stream of young, unqualified posters who were fed up with the UK and thought they'd come to Spain and find a job with no Spanish and no skills to offer. Just what they were going to do for money is a mystery because of course there would be no work available and no benefits at all payable to them.

Your repeated references to not getting a pension until 68 made me think that you perhaps thought Spain was different, but it isn't.

It seems that the best way to come to Spain atm if you need to work is to telework if poss. There has been a huge rise in posts from people who plan to do it - and a fair number from people who actually manage to do it!


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## Mushu7

Pesky Wesky said:


> Airy fairy! I haven't heard that expression in a while
> The thing is I do see a fair number of posts of people with a pretty unrealistic idea of what coming to Spain is like. We don't get too many now, but there was a time when we got a regular stream of young, unqualified posters who were fed up with the UK and thought they'd come to Spain and find a job with no Spanish and no skills to offer. Just what they were going to do for money is a mystery because of course there would be no work available and no benefits at all payable to them.
> 
> Your repeated references to not getting a pension until 68 made me think that you perhaps thought Spain was different, but it isn't.
> 
> It seems that the best way to come to Spain atm if you need to work is to telework if poss. There has been a huge rise in posts from people who plan to do it - and a fair number from people who actually manage to do it!


Elena the new Spanish Disney Princess is on in our house hence my airy fairy comment  

I've read hundreds on posts on here, including years back so I know the types of posts you're referring to. I've read them and though 'are you mental' myself. BUT theres only so much info about peoples plans you can share on these sorts of forums so benefit of the doubt for some is needed I think.

Our home life is pretty crazy right now, despite my husband leaving the army with all sorts of quals. Hes currently working in a supermarket and as a delivery pizza guy (lost his other job just before we went on holiday). SO our household income is about £15k down. We are like ships in the night barely seeing eachother with work, but we've set our move date now so its just save save save plan plan plan.

The job side of things we are still debating on. I am on the second year of my degree. Husband is civilianising (I know thats not a word) his quals so that they are relevant in civvi street, and just generally weighing up best options with career aspirations.

I'm pretty on top of researching and planning for our move. Bit of luck would be great though.

The whole pension thing has really cemented our desire to move sooner rather than later. There is no pot of gold to look forward to at all. My future in the UK looks so bleak. I am so positive and driven about our move. It's whats getting me up in the morning


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## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> I've read hundreds on posts on here, including years back so I know the types of posts you're referring to. I've read them and though 'are you mental' myself. BUT theres only so much info about peoples plans you can share on these sorts of forums so benefit of the doubt for some is needed I think.


That's true.
Well time for bed, I don't know if to sleep. The local fiestas started today and although we don't live in the town there's that peculiar night air that makes sure that the dongy - dongy - boom - boom - boom of house? electronic ?, hip hop? what ever that sound is, will find it's way into my ear and will bounce the night away on my eardrum.


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## Evilbungle

mrypg9 said:


> .why always the Spanish dream? Why not the French dream? The Italian dream? The Canadian dream even?


I’m sure there is on the French, Italian or Canadian boards. Probably even a UK dream as hard as it may be to believe for those of us who happened to come from there.



mrypg9 said:


> I suppose you could say that's got nothing to do with Mr and Mrs retired British immigrant happily enjoying their life in Spain.


Although they do bring money into the economy that would otherwise not be there. So are likely to be making a positive affect on the situation. Surely that is better than the immigrants coming over here and stealing their jobs! … Oh, like me. 

I think the point is, don’t expect a new country to fix your problems (The same can be said about winning the lottery.) If you are happy with life you will likely be happy with that life in a new location. If you are unhappy in life it is unlikely to be all down to the weather. Especially on a day like today when I was saturated on my way into work whilst my friends from back home posted pictures of sunbathing next to the Thames.


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## Pazcat

Well we moved for work reasons mainly and it's very likely that one day we will leave for work reasons if the right work comes along but there is no way I could tell you where that would be at this point and as far as I know we are not yearning for anywhere in particular.


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## baldilocks

Mushu7 said:


> Coming out to Spain with an airy fairy attitude (unless you have money behind you) is a recipe for disaster. Most people who are serious about moving anywhere will do the necessary research with a realistic hat on. For each searcher the outcomes will be different, because we will always compare to what our life is like now.
> 
> Your post ref the retirement age in Spain will little prospect of a pension.* I a pretty certain that I will have no state pension when I reach retirement age in UK. I had planned to leep up with NI contributions when I left, but I wouldnt bother now. *I can either stay in the UK and have no state pension, or move to Spain and have no state pension. I'm not going to have a state pension wherever I live, I;ve resigned myself to that.
> 
> This forum is of course useful and has been amazing in helping me research, I'm also lucky that my in laws have lived in SPain for donkeys years and can offer advice from their point of view to.
> 
> Wealth of knowledge and info out there.


Nowhere do you say how long it is before your retirement age. You can keep up your NI contributions (at Class 2 rate if you are employed or Class 3 if you are not) while you are in Spain and even build up to a full UK pension if you have enough time left. Any pension you also earn in Spain will be taken into account when working out your final pension BUT it all depends on whether the European Pension Regulations are still in force when the time comes but thanks to the [selfish] Brexiters, that may all be squashed if the UK leaves the EU.


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## Mushu7

baldilocks said:


> Nowhere do you say how long it is before your retirement age. You can keep up your NI contributions (at Class 2 rate if you are employed or Class 3 if you are not) while you are in Spain and even build up to a full UK pension if you have enough time left. Any pension you also earn in Spain will be taken into account when working out your final pension BUT it all depends on whether the European Pension Regulations are still in force when the time comes but thanks to the [selfish] Brexiters, that may all be squashed if the UK leaves the EU.


Another 38 years for me so you can only imagine what will happen during that time.

I can no longer receive my work pension at 60 either, I have to wait until 68, no lump sums or any other of the benefits my works pension used to have.

I was considering continuing contributing to NI while living in Spain. But because I am quite confident all my contributions already for my state pension will be for nothing, I probably won't bother.


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## mrypg9

Evilbungle said:


> I’m sure there is on the French, Italian or Canadian boards. Probably even a UK dream as hard as it may be to believe for those of us who happened to come from there.
> 
> 
> Although they do bring money into the economy that would otherwise not be there. So are likely to be making a positive affect on the situation. Surely that is better than the immigrants coming over here and stealing their jobs! … Oh, like me.
> 
> I think the point is, don’t expect a new country to fix your problems (The same can be said about winning the lottery.) If you are happy with life you will likely be happy with that life in a new location. If you are unhappy in life it is unlikely to be all down to the weather. Especially on a day like today when I was saturated on my way into work whilst my friends from back home posted pictures of sunbathing next to the Thames.


Well, I've never heard the word 'dream' attached to any other country but Spain...
As for finding it hard to believe in a 'British dream'...you are of course joking?? Whilst they might not use the term 'dream' there are many people, millions perhaps, al over the world who would jump at the opportunity to be able to live and work in the UK, a country so many like to run down. There are a few thousand of them juat across the Channel in Calais, risking their and other people's lives trying to get to the UK.

But I agree, it's very silly to expect a new country to fix your problems, especially a country with as many problems as Spain and imo it's equally silly to settle permanently in a country without knowing what you're letting yourself in for. Many immigrants' experience of Spain is from summer holidays and they are quite amazed to find that, yes, it does rain here and yes, it can be cold in winter and even snow. Some holiday resorts that are bright, busy and cheerful in summer can be miserable, dead and depressing in winter months.

I enjoyed my time in the countries I've lived in but also discovered things that made me realise that long-term living there wasn't for me. For example, initially I quite enjoyed the snow and sub zero temperatures of Canada and the Czech Republic - we had warm homes and warm clothing - but after a few years the novelty wore off and I realised that when I got really old and decrepit four or five months of minus 10 and below wouldn't be enjoyable.

Oddly, Spain was the last place I thought I'd ever live yet now it's my home and I'm not even that keen to fly back to the UK for visits. Friends and family come here often enough. I travelled round Spain as a student in the 1960s and then spent long summers in Ibiza in the early 1980s but never would have thought of living here.
Spain was originally intended as a couple of years stopover en route to somewhere else in Europe but as I've said it grew on me, kind of snuck up. I certainly never dreamed about living here or anywhere, I enjoyed life in the UK. 

I've always said there are no rules about how you should live in Spain, just as there is no 'real' Spain. Some like the beach life, others prefer inland towns, others smaller campo towns and villages. As long as we all realise that whilst life may be good for most of us and that some may be 'living their dream', it's not like that for very many Spanish people and many other immigrants and isn't likely to be for a long time yet.


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## Evilbungle

mrypg9 said:


> As for finding it hard to believe in a 'British dream'...you are of course joking?? Whilst they might not use the term 'dream' there are many people, millions perhaps, al over the world who would jump at the opportunity to be able to live and work in the UK, a country so many like to run down. There are a few thousand of them juat across the Channel in Calais, risking their and other people's lives trying to get to the UK.


Yes, this is kind of the point I was trying to make. To those of us who come from the UK the idea of being desperate to get to the UK may be hard to believe, especially for the subset of British people who are desperate to leave. 

But for many who were not it is a place that many people want to come to. To be honest I had more in mind the people who were legally looking to come into the country but in fact the people in Calais and other places around the world may be better examples of people having a "dream" of a better place. Although it is likely to be much more of a hard held dream of a better life than the casual day dreaming that many partake in about moving the other way.


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## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Another 38 years for me so you can only imagine what will happen during that time.
> 
> I can no longer receive my work pension at 60 either, I have to wait until 68, no lump sums or any other of the benefits my works pension used to have.
> 
> I was considering continuing contributing to NI while living in Spain. But because I am quite confident all my contributions already for my state pension will be for nothing, I probably won't bother.


You are quite right in what you say. Life for many younger people in the UK is very different from life thirty or more years ago. The retirement age is being increased, FSS pensions being abandoned or discontinued and the whilst the SRP is inadequate few people can amass enough savings to ensure a decent living standard after they finish work.

Most of this is down to decisions taken by various governments but there are other factors at work here. The population is ageing and people now live many more years after retiring than they used to. 

But......it really isn't that much different in Spain or any other part of Europe. Even in America middle-class incomes have been stagnating or even declining for decades.
Politically, Spain is in a mess at the moment with the very real possibility of a third election on Christmas Day, the result of which is likely to be the same as the previous two elections.
Things aren't really that better economically either. Even in the boom years Spain's unemployment ran at a steady 8 to 9%. The aftermath of the construction boom and bust saw the rate rise to a staggering 26%, worse than Greece. Construction is on the rise again so it is likely that in a few years' time the whole sorry saga will repeat itself....crises are always precipitated by asset bubbles and the asset is usually property. Spain's problems are mainly structural in that many areas rely 100% on tourism which is notoriously fickle. Employment is seasonal and low waged.

So whilst I agree with what you say and also realise that being born at the right time was an advantage to my generation, I think you are wrong in imagining that life would automatically be better in Spain. Sunshine doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table, alas.


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## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> You are quite right in what you say. Life for many younger people in the UK is very different from life thirty or more years ago. The retirement age is being increased, FSS pensions being abandoned or discontinued and the whilst the SRP is inadequate few people can amass enough savings to ensure a decent living standard after they finish work.
> 
> Most of this is down to decisions taken by various governments but there are other factors at work here. The population is ageing and people now live many more years after retiring than they used to.
> 
> But......it really isn't that much different in Spain or any other part of Europe. Even in America middle-class incomes have been stagnating or even declining for decades.
> Politically, Spain is in a mess at the moment with the very real possibility of a third election on Christmas Day, the result of which is likely to be the same as the previous two elections.
> Things aren't really that better economically either. Even in the boom years Spain's unemployment ran at a steady 8 to 9%. The aftermath of the construction boom and bust saw the rate rise to a staggering 26%, worse than Greece. Construction is on the rise again so it is likely that in a few years' time the whole sorry saga will repeat itself....crises are always precipitated by asset bubbles and the asset is usually property. Spain's problems are mainly structural in that many areas rely 100% on tourism which is notoriously fickle. Employment is seasonal and low waged.
> 
> So whilst I agree with what you say and also realise that being born at the right time was an advantage to my generation, I think you are wrong in imagining that life would automatically be better in Spain. Sunshine doesn't pay the rent or put food on the table, alas.


Understand what you’re saying. But for me I’m not thinking that we’ll come over to Spain and all of a sudden we’ll be minted and wont have to work, or work less hours and live a beach life. Work will take up a great portion of our days, much like the bane of my life working now. It’s after work that I get excited and can see the light at the end of the tunnel, if you know what I mean.

Work is work, there’s no avoiding it for your average person. It’s the other stuff that I want/need, the outdoor lifestyle, the slower pace. That’s the dream I guess.

I went to work yesterday in my sandals and didn’t bother taking a coat. Because it was going to be one of the hottest days ………….. it rained heavily sporadically throughout the day and the thunder was growling at me. 

I agree that moving to Spain is not a problem solver. It won’t save a marriage or make children better behaved or every other problem go away, a realistic expectation is a requirement.


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## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Understand what you’re saying. But for me I’m not thinking that we’ll come over to Spain and all of a sudden we’ll be minted and wont have to work, or work less hours and live a beach life. Work will take up a great portion of our days, much like the bane of my life working now. It’s after work that I get excited and can see the light at the end of the tunnel, if you know what I mean.
> 
> Work is work, there’s no avoiding it for your average person. It’s the other stuff that I want/need, the outdoor lifestyle, the slower pace. That’s the dream I guess.
> 
> I went to work yesterday in my sandals and didn’t bother taking a coat. Because it was going to be one of the hottest days ………….. it rained heavily sporadically throughout the day and the thunder was growling at me.
> 
> I agree that moving to Spain is not a problem solver. It won’t save a marriage or make children better behaved or every other problem go away, a realistic expectation is a requirement.


I wonder if you realise how difficult it is to find work in Spain? Note I said 'difficult', not 'impossible' as there's always some work available, 'quality' well-paid work too if you have qualifications and nearly always a very good command of Spanish.
People change jobs, retire, die.....so there are positions available.
The problem is that for every job vacancy that comes on the market there are hundreds, thousands even, of Spaniards waiting to fill it. Many of them highly skilled or qualified, all, of course, speaking fluent Spanish.
One thing I've learned is that here it's who you know, not what you know. Every time the organisation I work for has needed somebody we've got them through personal contact....and one important qualification has been fluent Spanish and English. Contacts are important here. It's how, in my experience, things get done.

I'm not trying to put you off, not intentionally anyhow but as I think PW said in an earlier post, it's important to know about the reality of life here. Unless you are very lucky or have a professional skill in short supply it won't be easy to find work.
As far as the chances of finding work go these days, it's the UK that offers the most opportunities.....Just look at the unemployment figures and compare, even if many are crap jobs, part time or zero hour or 'gig' contracts. At the end of the day, a job is a job.


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## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> I wonder if you realise how difficult it is to find work in Spain? Note I said 'difficult', not 'impossible' as there's always some work available, 'quality' well-paid work too if you have qualifications and nearly always a very good command of Spanish.
> People change jobs, retire, die.....so there are positions available.
> The problem is that for every job vacancy that comes on the market there are hundreds, thousands even, of Spaniards waiting to fill it. Many of them highly skilled or qualified, all, of course, speaking fluent Spanish.
> One thing I've learned is that here it's who you know, not what you know. Every time the organisation I work for has needed somebody we've got them through personal contact....and one important qualification has been fluent Spanish and English. Contacts are important here. It's how, in my experience, things get done.
> 
> I'm not trying to put you off, not intentionally anyhow but as I think PW said in an earlier post, it's important to know about the reality of life here. Unless you are very lucky or have a professional skill in short supply it won't be easy to find work.
> As far as the chances of finding work go these days, it's the UK that offers the most opportunities.....Just look at the unemployment figures and compare, even if many are crap jobs, part time or zero hour or 'gig' contracts. At the end of the day, a job is a job.


I'll be looking for jobs in Gib, as will my husband. However he could work anywhere in the world with his skills.


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## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> I went to work yesterday in my sandals and didn’t bother taking a coat. Because it was going to be one of the hottest days ………….. it rained heavily sporadically throughout the day and the thunder was growling at me.
> 
> Today, after an asphyixiating summer the like of which I've never known the temperature dropped by 10º. Autumn arrived in one day. I'm in heaven, but the sudden drop is not good for the body and many people will have health problems because of this.
> I agree that moving to Spain is not a problem solver. It won’t save a marriage or make children better behaved or every other problem go away, a realistic expectation is a requirement.
> That's right and work is key unless you have a private income, so what's it looking like in Gibraltar? I know there are opportunities for working in the gaming industry. I believe some of the Brtitsh bookies are based there


---


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## Mushu7

Pesky Wesky said:


> ---


Theres a few things in Gib – Gaming industry of course, then insurance, security firms, government departments (if you are lucky), police, fire and rescue, fitness and other recreational activities. Oh and a billion recruitment agencies that advertise the same posts. Theres plenty there, but you have to have the skills, and of course get your foot in the door some way.

It's certainly not as bad as Spain.

IF I managed to find a decent job in the Canaries I would go there in a heartbeat over mainland Spain. I keep on the look out constantly, but nothing (suitable for me) ever comes up.


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## Lynn R

Mushu7 said:


> I went to work yesterday in my sandals and didn’t bother taking a coat. Because it was going to be one of the hottest days ………….. it rained heavily sporadically throughout the day and the thunder was growling at me.
> 
> .


That does happen here too, though. Yesterday, for example. It was hot and sunny most of the day but started to cloud over by 4pm and by 6pm it was raining. It's not uncommon in autumn months for there to be torrential downpours and thunderstorms which can result in floods which do a tremendous amount of damage and have even caused loss of life. Only a few years ago there were pictures in the paper of people kayaking down a main road in the centre of Málaga, past the department store El Corte Inglés. And a tornado destroyed the roof of the Málaga bus station.


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## Simon22

Lynn R said:


> That does happen here too, though. Yesterday, for example. It was hot and sunny most of the day but started to cloud over by 4pm and by 6pm it was raining. It's not uncommon in autumn months for there to be torrential downpours and thunderstorms which can result in floods which do a tremendous amount of damage and have even caused loss of life. Only a few years ago there were pictures in the paper of people kayaking down a main road in the centre of Málaga, past the department store El Corte Inglés. And a tornado destroyed the roof of the Málaga bus station.


It does rain heavily here but it doesn't rain often, even less than Perth and I was happy there!


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## Mushu7

Yes not quite putting me off. Weather in Spain is completely different to UK. 

I've just come back from the hurricane season in Florida. The rain was a welcome change to the scorching heat!! But I didn't need my thermals on.


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## Lynn R

Simon22 said:


> It does rain heavily here but it doesn't rain often, even less than Perth and I was happy there!


You should qualify that statement with a "usually".

During the winter of 2009/2010, it seemed to barely stop raining for nearly six months. I even had to go out and buy a tumble dryer, something I thought I'd never need in Spain.

Thankfully we haven't had another winter like that since.


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## Lynn R

Before my time here, but in 1989, 25 straight days of torrential rain left 8 people dead in Málaga.

El diluvio universal lleg? a M?laga en 1989. SUR.es


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## Megsmum

We too watched the TV programmes and based on some of the people we saw on those programmes we thought we could do that.

To be honest, Spain was not on the list, originally we looked at the USA ( based on my nursing degree), but we then decided that we would be leaving one rat race for another rat race just in a warmer climate. At the end of the day, work is work wherever you live, same stresses etc, so we decided to wait until the girls we older and doing their own thing

Eventually,time moved on and we started to think about when and where, we dabbled with France, a stunningly beautiful place, but it did not "float my boat"

One day my husband saw a house on the Internet somewhere in Granada. So we started to research.........again time eventually passed and we just mooched around thinking.

in 2013 my husband had to undergo Spinal surgery and his future in the building industry was at an end. Try getting a job at the age of 56 with no formal qualifications and 36 years in the building game...........At the same time, the pressure on the NHS was growing, I was having to put in over 45+ hours a week, the job was becoming more and more stressful . The perfect storm, we decided to move to Spain, Sold house, bought a house, capital in the bank, an early pension from NHS. It was the best decision we could have made. NO, we do not have a lot of money, but we would not have had a lot of money in the UK, BUT we could not live like we do here, own our own house, 3 acres, mountain views, food on the table, money in the bank. Things have progressed because I now work. Our health is good, I am not stressed ( apart from "that" thread) My husband does not have to work, he can potter about, and build a woodstore if he wants and is able to stop if he wants.
Are we living the dream, no living the dream would be no worries, family next door, enough money to not worry.........Honestly, there are very few people living that dream,


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## Pesky Wesky

cambio said:


> We too watched the TV programmes and based on some of the people we saw on those programmes we thought we could do that.
> 
> To be honest, Spain was not on the list, originally we looked at the USA ( based on my nursing degree), but we then decided that we would be leaving one rat race for another rat race just in a warmer climate. At the end of the day, work is work wherever you live, same stresses etc, so we decided to wait until the girls we older and doing their own thing
> 
> Eventually,time moved on and we started to think about when and where, we dabbled with France, a stunningly beautiful place, but it did not "float my boat"
> 
> One day my husband saw a house on the Internet somewhere in Granada. So we started to research.........again time eventually passed and we just mooched around thinking.
> 
> in 2013 my husband had to undergo Spinal surgery and his future in the building industry was at an end. Try getting a job at the age of 56 with no formal qualifications and 36 years in the building game...........At the same time, the pressure on the NHS was growing, I was having to put in over 45+ hours a week, the job was becoming more and more stressful . The perfect storm, we decided to move to Spain, Sold house, bought a house, capital in the bank, an early pension from NHS. It was the best decision we could have made. NO, we do not have a lot of money, but we would not have had a lot of money in the UK, BUT we could not live like we do here, own our own house, 3 acres, mountain views, food on the table, money in the bank. Things have progressed because I now work. Our health is good, I am not stressed ( apart from "that" thread) My husband does not have to work, he can potter about, and build a woodstore if he wants and is able to stop if he wants.
> Are we living the dream, no living the dream would be no worries, family next door, enough money to not worry.........Honestly, there are very few people living that dream,


Good post, just telling it like it is


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## mrypg9

cambio said:


> .
> Are we living the dream, no living the dream would be no worries, family next door, enough money to not worry.........Honestly, there are very few people living that dream,


Super post

Totally agree about that 'dream' stuff. As I said, if your 'dream' consists of an idyllic life of sunshine sand and palm trees waving in the gentle breeze it's not much of a dream.

There are indeed few people in Spain 'living the dream'. I, you and most other posters would not want to proclaim we were living any sort of 'dream' in Spain when there are so many people here of all nationalities living lives of worry and misery, wondering how to make do from one day to the next.

No doubt 'Sir' Philip Green is living the dream on his super yacht somewhere in the Med.....I doubt the BHS pensioners he cheated are or ever will.


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## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> Super post
> 
> Totally agree about that 'dream' stuff. As I said, if your 'dream' consists of an idyllic life of sunshine sand and palm trees waving in the gentle breeze it's not much of a dream.
> 
> There are indeed few people in Spain 'living the dream'. I, you and most other posters would not want to proclaim we were living any sort of 'dream' in Spain when there are so many people here of all nationalities living lives of worry and misery, wondering how to make do from one day to the next.
> 
> No doubt 'Sir' Philip Green is living the dream on his super yacht somewhere in the Med.....I doubt the BHS pensioners he cheated are or ever will.


I would think Sir Philip is more likely to believe at the moment that his dream has turned into a nightmare! Hardly a day has gone by for the last few months when pictures of him and his family haven't been emblazoned across the tabloids with him referred to as "Sir Shifty" or "Sir Philip Greed." The once respected businessman is now known to everyone as a slimeball and a thief and he faces being stripped of his knighthood. Money doesn't always buy happiness!


----------



## Evilbungle

The Skipper said:


> Money doesn't always buy happiness!


And does seem to much more often buy dislike and disgust. The more money you have the more it is guarenteed there will be someone along soon to tell you that you are using it wrong!


----------



## bob_bob

Mushu7 said:


> Yes not quite putting me off. Weather in Spain is completely different to UK.
> 
> I've just come back from the hurricane season in Florida. The rain was a welcome change to the scorching heat!! But I didn't need my thermals on.


Do you live in the same Wales that I do? The last few years have been the mildest winters I can ever remember, yes we get rain but put on a coat. Thermals? Last time I needed thermals was in 2006 when snow climbing in Scotland. Do you not have central heating? You'll need heating in Spain too and all those lovely white painted homes in Spain loose their shine when its peeing down and the skies are grey.

Forget mainland Spain and stick with getting work on one of the Canary islands...may take you longer, you get less house for your € but you'll be warm all year round


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## Alcalaina

Not a dream, definitely a goal.

Dreams are nice to have, especially when you're feeling a bit down, but should never be confused with reality. Goals on the other hand require careful planning, regular reviews and a firm grip on reality.


----------



## Mushu7

bob_bob said:


> Mushu7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes not quite putting me off. Weather in Spain is completely different to UK.
> 
> I've just come back from the hurricane season in Florida. The rain was a welcome change to the scorching heat!! But I didn't need my thermals on.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you live in the same Wales that I do? The last few years have been the mildest winters I can ever remember, yes we get rain but put on a coat. Thermals? Last time I needed thermals was in 2006 when snow climbing in Scotland. Do you not have central heating? You'll need heating in Spain too and all those lovely white painted homes in Spain loose their shine when its peeing down and the skies are grey.
> 
> Forget mainland Spain and stick with getting work on one of the Canary islands...may take you longer, you get less house for your € but you'll be warm all year round
Click to expand...

Well I don't know what part of Wales you live. I am down South although only been back here 3 years now. We've had some pretty brutal winters, a coat doesn't always cut it. Stocking up on de-ice doesn't cut it. 

I'd hope being in Spain would cut my heating bill a lot as well. I pay £100pm right now and I'm still in debt with it. That's just gas btw. 

Canary Islands is The Dream, so if I can I most definitely will. But realistically mainland Spain is the best option for us.


----------



## Mushu7

You're not that far from me actually Bob (looked through some of your threads). I'm closer to the coast so maybe feel it (the cold) a lot more than you down here. Though I am generally cold ALL the time. Because we have such scarce warm weather here, somewhere warmer like Spain would be a welcome relief. Spain winters will be a breeze compared to this nonsense here.


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## bob_bob

"Brutal winters" LOL no way, wet yes brutal no, I'm in the south too between Cardiff and Swansea and up a bit. This winter I've used de-icer twice IIRC and I live out in the sticks in an old Farm House. My weather station records only show a handful of days with temps below 0c, this last winter temps were typically a +2 to +4c in the morning, and I did not need to break ice on the garden fish pond once.

I use GCH and woodburners.

As others here have said many times in the past, Spain gets chilly and ofter very very wet in the winter so you'd best pack all your winter tac if your prone to feeling the cold.

Good luck with your Canary Isles hunt.


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## mrypg9

You heat in winter and use air con in summer so don't expect substantial savings.


----------



## Mushu7

bob_bob said:


> "Brutal winters" LOL no way, wet yes brutal no, I'm in the south too between Cardiff and Swansea and up a bit. This winter I've used de-icer twice IIRC and I live out in the sticks in an old Farm House. My weather station records only show a handful of days with temps below 0c, this last winter temps were typically a +2 to +4c in the morning, and I did not need to break ice on the garden fish pond once.
> 
> I use GCH and woodburners.
> 
> As others here have said many times in the past, Spain gets chilly and ofter very very wet in the winter so you'd best pack all your winter tac if your prone to feeling the cold.
> 
> Good luck with your Canary Isles hunt.


What exactly are you 'loling'? Winters here HAVE been brutal. Last winter I used two large cans of de- icer so no idea where you've been? 

I've also been refused access to my street twice (one way system grid in some places) because of the black ice covering the streets. 

Seriously, winters have been freezing here, where have you been? The rain has been relentless as well.


----------



## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> You heat in winter and use air con in summer so don't expect substantial savings.


What are your gas and electricity bills monthly or annually out of interest?


----------



## Isobella

Mushi, it seems to me your dream is all about living in a warmer climate. You say the Canaries....which one? Or don't you mind? They are all different and some not very attractive.

I would prefer a better climate, preferably one that doesn't have a winter, but there would have to be a lot of other considerations to make it all fit into a dream place. What about your kids, many people have a dream for their kids and future prospects which sometimes means putting your own life on hold for a few years.


----------



## Mushu7

Isobella said:


> Mushi, it seems to me your dream is all about living in a warmer climate. You say the Canaries....which one? Or don't you mind? They are all different and some not very attractive.
> 
> I would prefer a better climate, preferably one that doesn't have a winter, but there would have to be a lot of other considerations to make it all fit into a dream place. What about your kids, many people have a dream for their kids and future prospects which sometimes means putting your own life on hold for a few years.



And you have got all that from a few posts on this site! Impressive.

You do understand that there is only so much one can put on an open forum? Climate is a huge reason for us as a family, my kids being out playing rather than stuck in side is just one climate related reason among others.

Canaries ... Two islands in particular, I've already asked questions on here about one in particular.

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with regards to my kids and my considerations for them????

Whatever MY reasons are for moving, they are MINE and mine alone. I don't have to validate them for anyone. The limited reasons you know about may not be good enough for you, it really doesn't matter.

I appreciate people's helpful posts on here, especially how difficult it is to get a job, or schooling for older children because it just gives me more info awareness and to ensure 'my plan' encompasses those realities.

But my reasons, my family unit and the future of my children and their prospects is of no concern to you. That is my job as their mother.


----------



## SpanishFly

I've been planning to move there for about 6 years so now I'm finally going it is exciting and I suppose you could say its been a "dream" of mine to go there and live the dream. Honestly my reasons are purely selfish I want a better quality of life. I have a job in Spain and will contribute but I'm going to live in the party areas, be on the beaches and enjoy life. I'm only 34 dunno if that matters though really.


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## Mushu7

SpanishFly said:


> I've been planning to move there for about 6 years so now I'm finally going it is exciting and I suppose you could say its been a "dream" of mine to go there and live the dream. Honestly my reasons are purely selfish I want a better quality of life. I have a job in Spain and will contribute but I'm going to live in the party areas, be on the beaches and enjoy life. I'm only 34 dunno if that matters though really.


How has the 6 years been for you? I have another two years of planning and saving, seems like forever away but I'm not wishing the days away. 

Is it turning out as you planned?

Your reasons for going are irrelevant imo. They are YOUR reasons, and ultimately you only have to answer to yourself. You are young, although have a good 4 years on me, so why the hell not eh?


----------



## bob_bob

I was LOLing about your use of the word 'Brutal' regarding our Welsh winters...no way are they Brutal LOL... Get up to northern Scotland or high up in the Lake district and you'll maybe experience brutal winter condidtions. Your partner is or was in the army, did he do Arctic warfare training in Norway? now thats brutal but...I loved it.

I think Isobella's comments about children is its OK saying you want to see the kids out playing in the sun et al but is that an excuse, just something that fits your 'dream' plan. The practical problems of removing your children from their home, their language, their friends are massive. Ten years down the line what will they be doing? Out of work like so many Spanish youngsters working in a bar for a few €s an hour, will they have the qualifications to come back (as most do) to a UK uni? Will have the money to pay for all that.

You want warm all year round move to Australia, no language problems, your youngsters will be a Schools they can fit straight into and where they can make friends. You'll find it easier to find friends to. If you don't have the points to emigrate just yet, look at what you need and get the qualifications you need.

You seem bright so if you also have a caring nature take off the rose tinted glasses and go uni in Cardiff or Ponty, train to be a nurse, three years you have a degree, two years ward experience means that in five years (60 months) your soaking up the sun down under where you all speak the language and your in a culture thats easy to join and identify with...your nippers will thank you.

Just my view and no offence meant.


----------



## Mushu7

bob_bob said:


> I was LOLing about your use of the word 'Brutal' regarding our Welsh winters...no way are they Brutal LOL... Get up to northern Scotland or high up in the Lake district and you'll maybe experience brutal winter condidtions. Your partner is or was in the army, did he do Arctic warfare training in Norway? now thats brutal but...I loved it.
> 
> I think Isobella's comments about children is its OK saying you want to see the kids out playing in the sun et al but is that an excuse, just something that fits your 'dream' plan. The practical problems of removing your children from their home, their language, their friends are massive. Ten years down the line what will they be doing? Out of work like so many Spanish youngsters working in a bar for a few €s an hour, will they have the qualifications to come back (as most do) to a UK uni? Will have the money to pay for all that.
> 
> You want warm all year round move to Australia, no language problems, your youngsters will be a Schools they can fit straight into and where they can make friends. You'll find it easier to find friends to. If you don't have the points to emigrate just yet, look at what you need and get the qualifications you need.
> 
> You seem bright so if you also have a caring nature take off the rose tinted glasses and go uni in Cardiff or Ponty, train to be a nurse, three years you have a degree, two years ward experience means that in five years (60 months) your soaking up the sun down under where you all speak the language and your in a culture thats easy to join and identify with...your nippers will thank you.
> 
> Just my view and no offence meant.


Well my youngest will still be in school. I have family that live in US, Oz, and Spain. I choose Spain. 

Language hopefully won't be a barrier by the time we move. 

As for brutal weather ... We're going to have to agree to disagree because despite living close we're apparently living in different climates. In the 3 years I've lived back here I've had to wake up earlier in the mornings to defrost the car than ever before.


----------



## bob_bob

Language will still be a massive barrier. Why Spain, why make life difficult for your children. Not just aimed at you but at all the other parents who've just not thought things through and focused on the reality of the move.

Get up early to defrost cars? Naa, sorry, don't believe it... you be telling porkies lol.


----------



## baldilocks

bob_bob said:


> Language will still be a massive barrier. Why Spain, why make life difficult for your children. Not just aimed at you but at all the other parents who've just not thought things through and focused on the reality of the move.
> 
> Get up early to defrost cars? Naa, sorry, don't believe it... you be telling porkies lol.


As for defrosting cars, much depends on the altitude at which one is living and the time one gets up to go to work. I used to leave for work at 4am and frequently had to defrost my car.


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Well my youngest will still be in school. I have family that live in US, Oz, and Spain. I choose Spain.
> 
> Language hopefully won't be a barrier by the time we move.
> 
> As for brutal weather ... We're going to have to agree to disagree because despite living close we're apparently living in different climates. In the 3 years I've lived back here I've had to wake up earlier in the mornings to defrost the car than ever before.


A couple of points: language will continue to be a barrier for a long time AFTER you move. It's easy to pick up a workable knowledge of any spoken language but understanding what is said to you by a native speaker is another matter.
I worked as a translator/interpreter and as a teacher of French and German. I spent seven years learning French in school, passed the old A and S levels, much more demanding than present day exams, yet it wasn't until I spent time in France that I could claim to be fluent in French. Oh yes, I could read classics of French literature and write essays but having conversations, real conversations, not asking for a coffee in a bar, took a while to click in.
Whereas German, the language I'm most fluent in, I first picked up in Germany with a German family.
I've lived in Spain for eight years now and I can speak reasonably fluently but my understanding hovers around 70-80% depending on the substance of the conversation and the accent of the speaker. So learn before you come but don't expect to be able to slip into Spanish for quite a while, years maybe.

Now weather. People tend to have strange ideas that the sun shines 24/7 in Spain and it never freezes or snows. 
We live on the coast, about 1km inland. Ronda, a very attractive town, is a mere 30km away inland. In winter it is often under deep snow. People living 10km from the coast can wake up to find ice on their windscreens.
Don't think that intense heat is so great either! OK when you're enjoying a two week break but weeks on end of 40C plus can be a killer. It can also cost a fortune in air con.

Isobella is right about prospects for school leavers here in Spain. I posted before that 60% of young people are unemployed here. Any young person who qualifies for entry to a Spanish University will need a very high degree of fluency in Spanish and even then there's no guarantee of a job post University. Sending a young person to a UK university will probably be even more expensive in future post-Brexit.

It's good to have plans for the future but the fact is that the streets of Spain are not paved with gold. At this point in time there seems to be more Spanish people wanting to come to the UK for work than Brits leaving to find work in Spain.
As I said, it's not impossible to find well=paid work but it's hard enough for Spaniards ......


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> What are your gas and electricity bills monthly or annually out of interest?


We live in a large house with quite spacious rooms. Like many Spanish houses, it's not built for winter. In summer we use air con, sometimes all day in August. Impossible to sleep with open windows when the outside temperature hovers around 30C.
In winter we heat only two rooms, bedroom and a room we use as a study. We are all electric but use bottled gas in the bedroom and dining room. Our average monthly bill this year has been around £160 a month....for air con in two rooms in August plus occasional electric heating and the usual appliances.....
We don't use our salon in the winter months. Impossible to heat it comfortably. 
We use a gas heater for our dining room and bedroom, total winter cost around £100.

We also have a swimming pool so obviously the running costs of that bump up the electricity bill. Electricity is not cheap in Spain, I'm afraid.


----------



## Lynn R

We, on the other hand, live in a not quite so spacious house (3 bed 2 bath) and don't have a swimming pool nor a garden to water. Our bills are pretty reasonable as we use gas for all our cooking and for almost all heating in the winter (apart from electric heating in the bathroom). Our water is heated by electricity. I tend to buy a total of 10 gas bottles per year, which at today's prices would be €112.70 for the year. Our electricity bills are between €88-100 every two months. One reason why our electricity bills are lower is that because we don't have an electric oven nor hob, we can contract for fewer kwph than people who do, as that affects the standing charges we pay which account for a substantial proportion of the bills. Our "potencia" as it is called is only 3.45kw meaning that we can only be using that amount of electricity at any one time before the supply trips. That is enough for us, but anyone in an all-electric property would need quite a bit more.

I do sleep with the bedroom windows open all night throughout the summer, and a floor standing fan on, and I find that cool enough to sleep in comfortably. We don't have any air conditioning and have never felt we needed it during the 10 years we've been here. We live only 4.5km inland, though, and I know we would need it if we were to live further from the coast.

I can't stress too highly the fact that if you are a person who really feels the cold, then once you have lived through a full Spanish summer you WILL feel cold in Spain in the winter, even if the temperatures never go down to freezing point, because you will be acclimatised to the warmer temperatures. We now feel chilly once the temperature goes down to 20C and that's time to start putting warm clothes on. You don't feel that way when you just come to Spain for a week or two's holiday in the winter, because you are arriving from colder temperatures in the UK therefore it feels warmer here. When we only came to Spain for holidays, I used to swim in unheated pools and lie on sun loungers in a bikini at Christmas. That would be absolutely unthinkable now, although I can sit out in a t-shirt on winter afternoons when the sun is out - but come 5pm when the sun is setting, the warm sweaters go on.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> We, on the other hand, live in a not quite so spacious house (3 bed 2 bath) and don't have a swimming pool nor a garden to water. Our bills are pretty reasonable as we use gas for all our cooking and for almost all heating in the winter (apart from electric heating in the bathroom). Our water is heated by electricity. I tend to buy a total of 10 gas bottles per year, which at today's prices would be €112.70 for the year. Our electricity bills are between €88-100 every two months. One reason why our electricity bills are lower is that because we don't have an electric oven nor hob, we can contract for fewer kwph than people who do, as that affects the standing charges we pay which account for a substantial proportion of the bills. Our "potencia" as it is called is only 3.45kw meaning that we can only be using that amount of electricity at any one time before the supply trips. That is enough for us, but anyone in an all-electric property would need quite a bit more.
> 
> I do sleep with the bedroom windows open all night throughout the summer, and a floor standing fan on, and I find that cool enough to sleep in comfortably. We don't have any air conditioning and have never felt we needed it during the 10 years we've been here. We live only 4.5km inland, though, and I know we would need it if we were to live further from the coast.
> 
> I can't stress too highly the fact that if you are a person who really feels the cold, then once you have lived through a full Spanish summer you WILL feel cold in Spain in the winter, even if the temperatures never go down to freezing point, because you will be acclimatised to the warmer temperatures. We now feel chilly once the temperature goes down to 20C and that's time to start putting warm clothes on. You don't feel that way when you just come to Spain for a week or two's holiday in the winter, because you are arriving from colder temperatures in the UK therefore it feels warmer here. When we only came to Spain for holidays, I used to swim in unheated pools and lie on sun loungers in a bikini at Christmas. That would be absolutely unthinkable now, although I can sit out in a t-shirt on winter afternoons when the sun is out - but come 5pm when the sun is setting, the warm sweaters go on.


Yes, we have the highest potencia so our bills will be higher. But I don't know anyone in our area who hasn't used aircon this past month. Windows open, warm air in. 
People we know who live in pisos have aircon on 24/7.
Also true about feeling the chill. It's still shorts and Tshirt most of the day but out with the dogs in the campo or by the sea at 8 in the morning and it's jeans and long sleeves. Same after 9pm.
Our next door neighbour Manolo rents his house in summer and autumn to tourists, usually Brits or Germans. We hear them splashing in the pool in early October. I personally gave up swimming over a week ago. Sandra swam on and now has a bad cold.


----------



## mrypg9

Actually, I think we live more than 1km from the shore line. It takes me about twenty minutes to walk to the village beach so maybe about the same as you, Lyn around 3 4 km at least.
I am a poor judge of distance.
We've never had frost but a short distance inland and the grass is often tipped with ice.


----------



## Mushu7

Isobella is not right!!! The negativity that comes out on here crosses a big line. At best you can give practical advice, tips etc. But nobody here has the right to question anybody's motive for moving to Spain, or their parenting. Which IS exactly what some of you are doing.

You are making the purpose of this forum pretty defunct. 

This will be the last time I address questions to validate in YOUR head why I am moving and why I am choosing Spain, and I suggest others that join the forum do the same.

Stop trying to stop people. Stop trying to put people off. And stop telling young people like me to wait until I'm bloody retired or my kids have grown up. That is all a recurring theme on this site. Even in this thread alone the use of the word "dream" is being dismissed somewhat.

Help people to make their "dream" a reality. If it starts off unrealistic *in your eyes* then explain the realities, give people alternative ideas. But don't tell them not to bother moving to Spain.


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Isobella is not right!!! The negativity that comes out on here crosses a big line. At best you can give practical advice, tips etc. But nobody here has the right to question anybody's motive for moving to Spain, or their parenting. Which IS exactly what some of you are doing.
> 
> You are making the purpose of this forum pretty defunct.
> 
> This will be the last time I address questions to validate in YOUR head why I am moving and why I am choosing Spain, and I suggest others that join the forum do the same.
> 
> Stop trying to stop people. Stop trying to put people off. And stop telling young people like me to wait until I'm bloody retired or my kids have grown up. That is all a recurring theme on this site. Even in this thread alone the use of the word "dream" is being dismissed somewhat.
> 
> Help people to make their "dream" a reality. If it starts off unrealistic *in your eyes* then explain the realities, give people alternative ideas. But don't tell them not to bother moving to Spain.


Methinks you rant too much. Isobella was right when she said that prospects for school leavers in Spain are dismal. Sadly that is a fact and one any sensible parent would surely take into account.
You have been given the 'realities'. We've told you about the unemployment situation, the weather, the fact that being fluent in Spanish requires actual experience of speaking the language in Spain. We've told you about fuel costs. We've told you about potential problems you may encounter.
I sense you aren't being told what you want to hear. I may be wrong but I get the impression that you think you move to Spain, walk into a job, live happily ever after. Well, some do, but many don't. You may get lucky, you may not. My advice to single people with no family responsibilities is is take a chance. But people with families must surely be more cautious..
What you do with your life and that of your children is down to you. Your decision. But when you ask for advice on a Forum from people some of whom have lived here for many years it's not a good idea to cast it aside. People with families must surely be more cautious.
Nobody can 'help' anybody make their dream a reality. The words 'dream' and 'reality' clash somewhat, don't they.... People have to find things out and make informed judgments. 
I personally have been lucky enough to enjoy life wherever I have found myself in the world so I've never need to 'dream' of a better life. After all, life usually is what you make of it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> Isobella is not right!!! The negativity that comes out on here crosses a big line. At best you can give practical advice, tips etc. But nobody here has the right to question anybody's motive for moving to Spain, or their parenting. Which IS exactly what some of you are doing.
> 
> You are making the purpose of this forum pretty defunct.
> 
> This will be the last time I address questions to validate in YOUR head why I am moving and why I am choosing Spain, and I suggest others that join the forum do the same.
> 
> Stop trying to stop people. Stop trying to put people off. And stop telling young people like me to wait until I'm bloody retired or my kids have grown up. That is all a recurring theme on this site. Even in this thread alone the use of the word "dream" is being dismissed somewhat.
> 
> Help people to make their "dream" a reality. If it starts off unrealistic *in your eyes* then explain the realities, give people alternative ideas. But don't tell them not to bother moving to Spain.


Why would people want to stop others from coming to Spain?
What would be the reasoning behind that?

It may be a shock that people post what they do, but most people write about their life and what they have encountered. There are many positives to living in Spain, but the practical realities have to be looked at too.
By writing this I'm not saying you *aren't* taking them into consideration, I'm just saying that people *will* write about them.

For me Spain is my life. It's where I live and alway will as long as I stay married! (we are celebrating our 25th anniversary today). OH is not the travelling kind. As I said before, it's not my dream, but I'm happy enough. 
To be honest I don't think I've ever had the dream destination to live. There are places I really want to travel to (parts of Canada, Bruges, wouldn't say no to the Grand Canyon...) I think about my ideal house, a different job, but not a dream country to live.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why would people want to stop others from coming to Spain?
> What would be the reasoning behind that?
> 
> It may be a shock that people post what they do, but most people write about their life and what they have encountered. There are many positives to living in Spain, but the practical realities have to be looked at too.
> By writing this I'm not saying you *aren't* taking them into consideration, I'm just saying that people *will* write about them.
> 
> For me Spain is my life. It's where I live and alway will as long as I stay married! (we are celebrating our 25th anniversary today). OH is not the travelling kind. As I said before, it's not my dream, but I'm happy enough.
> To be honest I don't think I've ever had the dream destination to live. There are places I really want to travel to (parts of Canada, Bruges, wouldn't say no to the Grand Canyon...) I think about my ideal house, a different job, but not a dream country to live.


Happy Anniversary:cheer2: Bruges is really lovely....actually, so is most of the rest of Belgium, which for some strange reason rarely figures on lists of countries one must visit. The coast, the Ardennes, Brussels itself, the beer, the chips, the moules....
Canada....well, I only know parts of Quebec and Ontario. Canada is so damn big....you kind of sense its vastness the moment you step out of the aircraft. I've experienced it in extreme heat and extreme cold, been really awed by breathtakingly impressive mountain scenery and the friendliness of small-town life....but in the end we decided it wasn't the place for us to retire to.
I don't like 'big' places, Berlin, New York City and London excepted...but then I really only like specific parts of those cities. 
I always wanted to settle outside the UK for the last part of my life, we both have lived in other countries, OH in four for long periods of her life. But like you, I never 'dreamed'. I was too busy either working or doing things I enjoyed.
A bit like my life now except the 'work' I do is voluntary.


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why would people want to stop others from coming to Spain?
> What would be the reasoning behind that?
> 
> It may be a shock that people post what they do, but most people write about their life and what they have encountered. There are many positives to living in Spain, but the practical realities have to be looked at too.
> By writing this I'm not saying you *aren't* taking them into consideration, I'm just saying that people *will* write about them.
> 
> For me Spain is my life. It's where I live and alway will as long as I stay married! (we are celebrating our 25th anniversary today). OH is not the travelling kind. As I said before, it's not my dream, but I'm happy enough.
> To be honest I don't think I've ever had the dream destination to live. There are places I really want to travel to (parts of Canada, Bruges, wouldn't say no to the Grand Canyon...) I think about my ideal house, a different job, but not a dream country to live.


Happy anniversary. Our boda de plata was last year. 

You and I have both been to Colombia which, for many Europeans and North Americans is a bit of a culture shock (more so when we were there than now, perhaps.) Apart from transiting through Barajas airport and a short period of work, and a few days over Easter in 1991, I had never been to Spain until we took a 5day break covering Córdoba, Granada, Ronda and Sevilla in 2005. As a place for retiring to, it had never occurred to me in the past but it was on our list of potential places. Since all the other places eventually crossed themselves off the list, we were left with Spain.

For us it ticks all the boxes. Primarily, it is affordable, we can live here in a way that we would have found difficult anywhere else. The fact that we have a nice house, in a pleasant village amongst warm and friendly people and can look out at pleasant scenery are all bonuses.

Brujas is great but expensive and I can thoroughly recommend a short holiday there.


----------



## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> Methinks you rant too much. Isobella was right when she said that prospects for school leavers in Spain are dismal. Sadly that is a fact and one any sensible parent would surely take into account.
> You have been given the 'realities'. We've told you about the unemployment situation, the weather, the fact that being fluent in Spanish requires actual experience of speaking the language in Spain. We've told you about fuel costs. We've told you about potential problems you may encounter.
> I sense you aren't being told what you want to hear. I may be wrong but I get the impression that you think you move to Spain, walk into a job, live happily ever after. Well, some do, but many don't. You may get lucky, you may not. My advice to single people with no family responsibilities is is take a chance. But people with families must surely be more cautious..
> What you do with your life and that of your children is down to you. Your decision. But when you ask for advice on a Forum from people some of whom have lived here for many years it's not a good idea to cast it aside. People with families must surely be more cautious.y
> Nobody can 'help' anybody make their dream a reality. The words 'dream' and 'reality' clash somewhat, don't they.... People have to find things out and make informed judgments.
> I personally have been lucky enough to enjoy life wherever I have found myself in the world so I've never need to 'dream' of a better life. After all, life usually is what you make of it.


If you can't see the negativity then you are too consumed in it.

I am moving to Spain. No ifs or buts it's happening, this site has been very useful in tweaking my plans. But is it helpful to tell me not to make the move, go somewhere else instead, or to wait until my children have grown up? It seems continuous. I give a little bit of information and a group of you attempt to disect it? Whether intentional it is certainly how it comes across to me. And I am not talking about just my own situation. 

I'm not here to qualify my reasons for anything, I'm here for help and advice on moving to Spain, not if or when I should do it.


----------



## Mushu7

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why would people want to stop others from coming to Spain?
> What would be the reasoning behind that?
> 
> It may be a shock that people post what they do, but most people write about their life and what they have encountered. There are many positives to living in Spain, but the practical realities have to be looked at too.
> By writing this I'm not saying you *aren't* taking them into consideration, I'm just saying that people *will* write about them.
> 
> For me Spain is my life. It's where I live and alway will as long as I stay married! (we are celebrating our 25th anniversary today). OH is not the travelling kind. As I said before, it's not my dream, but I'm happy enough.
> To be honest I don't think I've ever had the dream destination to live. There are places I really want to travel to (parts of Canada, Bruges, wouldn't say no to the Grand Canyon...) I think about my ideal house, a different job, but not a dream country to live.


Congratulations, 25 years is amazing. 

In answer to your initial question, I don't know. I honestly think it's coming down to a generational thing. Many of you moved to Spain a long time ago, and as tough as things may be out there at the moment, UK is not a fun place to be at all. It's changed so much since I was a child, but above all of that I want my children to have a different lifestyle. When my family and I talk about the future it is abroad. That's what we want and we are all walking damn hard, in particular my husband to ensure we have the finances behind us to make it so.

Everyone's reasons for going to Spain are different, a large bulk of the regulars on here appear to have moved to Spain to retire. I am moving to work, live and raise my children.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> Congratulations, 25 years is amazing.
> 
> In answer to your initial question, I don't know. I honestly think it's coming down to a generational thing.


Blimey! 
We might be from a different generation, but we're not complete weirdos. I don't know anyone who tries to stop people coming to Spain. Give pertinent info perhaps. We're all different ages and we come from all different walks of life, you can't lump us together so easily.
What we do have in common is coming to live in Spain, and some in the same situation as you, with young children, but life moves on and Spain is not such an easy country to come to any more. If you post a question on here you'll get answers and that's what you've got.


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## xabiaxica

Mushu7 said:


> Congratulations, 25 years is amazing.
> 
> In answer to your initial question, I don't know. I honestly think it's coming down to a generational thing. Many of you moved to Spain a long time ago, and as tough as things may be out there at the moment, UK is not a fun place to be at all. It's changed so much since I was a child, but above all of that I want my children to have a different lifestyle. When my family and I talk about the future it is abroad. That's what we want and we are all walking damn hard, in particular my husband to ensure we have the finances behind us to make it so.
> 
> Everyone's reasons for going to Spain are different, a large bulk of the regulars on here appear to have moved to Spain to retire. I am moving to work, live and raise my children.


We moved here 13 years ago - just to try it for a year to see if it suited us.

My daughters were then 4 & 7. My husband worked away in the US & had always done so, so it didn't really matter which country we lived in. We'd tried the US & I hated it. 

My children settled quickly & we decided to stay. It hasn't always been easy. It was never a 'dream' to live here & sometimes it has been a nightmare. Sometimes it has been damn near impossible to carry on. 

I have rarely regretted it though. I do worry about my daughters' futures. Although my town has comparatively low unemployment, the employment there is, on the whole isn't the sort of thing careers are made of. My 20 year old daughter moved to Barcelona last weekend & has spent the week in interviews (& has actually turned 2 jobs down  ). At least there are jobs in the big city for those who are multi-lingual.


We had originally planned to retire here, but I'm glad we didn't wait because my husband died nearly 5 years ago, so I probably would never have come. That though has meant that I had to build a business to support myself & two daughters (there isn't much work for 50+ year old women with mobility problems) & that I don't know if I'll ever be able to afford to retire!

You'd have to drag me away kicking & screaming though. Not because I am living any kind of dream. Just because this is my home.


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## Mushu7

Well I've got answers and useful advice, but I've also had the Sherlock Holmes enquiry and told to stay put. The latter is not helpful.

There's not that many members that have moved recently with young kids (active members anyway). I know there is jo and that she returned to UK cos her eldest daughter didn't like it. Useful threads with her however I'm pretty confident my eldest won't have that problem.


----------



## Mushu7

xabiachica said:


> Mushu7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations, 25 years is amazing.
> 
> In answer to your initial question, I don't know. I honestly think it's coming down to a generational thing. Many of you moved to Spain a long time ago, and as tough as things may be out there at the moment, UK is not a fun place to be at all. It's changed so much since I was a child, but above all of that I want my children to have a different lifestyle. When my family and I talk about the future it is abroad. That's what we want and we are all walking damn hard, in particular my husband to ensure we have the finances behind us to make it so.
> 
> Everyone's reasons for going to Spain are different, a large bulk of the regulars on here appear to have moved to Spain to retire. I am moving to work, live and raise my children.
> 
> 
> 
> We moved here 13 years ago - just to try it for a year to see if it suited us.
> 
> My daughters were then 4 & 7. My husband worked away in the US & had always done so, so it didn't really matter which country we lived in. We'd tried the US & I hated it.
> 
> My children settled quickly & we decided to stay. It hasn't always been easy. It was never a 'dream' to live here & sometimes it has been a nightmare. Sometimes it has been damn near impossible to carry on.
> 
> I have rarely regretted it though. I do worry about my daughters' futures. Although my town has comparatively low unemployment, the employment there is, on the whole isn't the sort of thing careers are made of. My 20 year old daughter moved to Barcelona last weekend & has spent the week in interviews (& has actually turned 2 jobs down
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). At least there are jobs in the big city for those who are multi-lingual.
> 
> 
> We had originally planned to retire here, but I'm glad we didn't wait because my husband died nearly 5 years ago, so I probably would never have come. That though has meant that I had to build a business to support myself & two daughters (there isn't much work for 50+ year old women with mobility problems) & that I don't know if I'll ever be able to afford to retire!
Click to expand...

Oh wow I didn't realise your husband passed away. So sorry for you all. You must be an extremely strong and resilient woman to have gone through all that. 

I can pick out quite a few things in your post that I can identify with, so that's useful. Know what you mean with the US, we've considered it, as 4 of my husbands siblings did it with the MIL, but I wouldn't want to raise the kids there.


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## Pesky Wesky

Mushu7 said:


> There's not that many members that have moved recently with young kids (active members anyway).


Well, there are members who have, but maybe have not chosen to write on this thread .


----------



## xabiaxica

Mushu7 said:


> Well I've got answers and useful advice, but I've also had the Sherlock Holmes enquiry and told to stay put. The latter is not helpful.
> 
> There's not that many members that have moved recently with young kids (active members anyway). I know there is jo and that she returned to UK cos her eldest daughter didn't like it. Useful threads with her however I'm pretty confident my eldest won't have that problem.


I think jojo moved here 7 or 8 years ago & has been back in the UK maybe 4 years now - so her experience isn't that recent & lots has changed since she lived here tbh.

It was her youngest who didn't settle - but tween/teen years are difficult no matter where you live

I know lots of people who have moved here with kids in the past few years. Almost all have one parent - usually the father - working offshore. Those with younger kids have mostly put them into Spanish state school & older kids go to International school.


----------



## Megsmum

Mushu7 said:


> Isobella is not right!!! The negativity that comes out on here crosses a big line. At best you can give practical advice, tips etc. But nobody here has the right to question anybody's motive for moving to Spain, or their parenting. Which IS exactly what some of you are doing.
> 
> You are making the purpose of this forum pretty defunct.
> 
> This will be the last time I address questions to validate in YOUR head why I am moving and why I am choosing Spain, and I suggest others that join the forum do the same.
> 
> Stop trying to stop people. Stop trying to put people off. And stop telling young people like me to wait until I'm bloody retired or my kids have grown up. That is all a recurring theme on this site. Even in this thread alone the use of the word "dream" is being dismissed somewhat.
> 
> Help people to make their "dream" a reality. If it starts off unrealistic *in your eyes* then explain the realities, give people alternative ideas. But don't tell them not to bother moving to Spain.



First of all, we move here two years ago. I am not over the hill neither am I retired, neither do I have children here with us. I have just celebrated our 36th wedding anniversary

If you ask peoples opinions then you are going to get a wide variety of answers based on those people's individual circumstances and experience, some opinions will fit in with what you want to hear, others will not It is up to you to decide whether or not your idea of living in Spain is correct. When I first starting researching the move here, as we are under retirement age and knew we would need an income we immediately went down the route of a Casa Rural etc. When I posted this on another forum I was told in no uncertain terms this was a bad idea and was given a list of reasons and like you, I took offence at this, how dare people tell me what to do trying to stop me. However once a deep breath had been taken and further research had been done it was clear that they were right and we were wrong as it pertained to our circumstances, someone else, however, could have made a go of it.

The word dream is kind of dismissed because of the connotations it brings up, what is your idea of a "dream life " in Spain. For example, for us it was not about a Dream life it was about experiencing a Different life, a different culture. Many Many Many people have been on here talking about living the dream in Spain, where it never get cold, where life is just rosy, well as I am sure you know, that is not the case wherever you live

Isabella is correct, and I think she was merely planting that seed in your head as food for thought. Youth Unemployment here is horrendously high and not to be baulked at. Spanish nationals have a terrible time getting jobs and they are fluent in the language. So when it sounds like people are questioning you they are in a way, not questioning your reasons but giving you food for thought. Yes it is obvious that you know your children and you are the person who needs to be confident that it is for the best and that it is the best decision for you and yours. We can only give you opinions.

At the end of the day whether or not you move to Spain is up to you based on the information and opinions you have received on here and elsewhere, what you get here is food for thought, and only that. We cannot make your dreams a reality because you will need money and health cover and all the mundane rubbish you need in the UK,


So in my opinion, I do not know your individual circumstances or your financial situation and I can only presume that income health care and schools have already been researched and assessed and you are happy that you can afford the move without a job or you have a job lined up ( I have not read your previous posts sorry) So that's that box ticked

As for the weather, well before I came to Spain I lived in Rural Sussex. Yes, we had snow and I too scraped ice off of the window screen. Here in rural Spain, we can get snow ( my area) but we get terrible frosts. Very often the mornings are as low as -5 through January and February but we also get warm days where we wear t-shirts , but the nights are very cold and the summers are very hot last week 43.

Life here for us is good, Brexit has however put a spanner in the works for all of already here and those who plan to move, so thats another factor that needs researching



OK I just re read some of your posts


I


> think it is difficult for some of the older generation to relate to why younger people - with families and no job lined up - like me are so desperate to move and 'live the dream' regardless of whether it's Spain or not.


Of course it is not difficult for people of any age to understand this but there is I am afraid very few people "living the dream!" Especially if you are working ( what is your work?)



> Even though the economy isn't great in Spainit it is no different to the UK, however that sunshine makes the day a lot brighter.



That is not true, the economy in Spain is getting better, however, there is HUGE unemployment here, no benefit system and no health cover unless in contracted work or self-employed and paying 300 euros a month so yes it is very different to the UK



> Long live dreams and ambitions


I could not agree more, and with the right research, sufficient funds etc your dream can well become a reality


----------



## Mushu7

Cambio - thanks for your post. Great that you are out there too.

Just to put the record straight, I have no problem hearing the negative, in fact I think it is probably the most important thing to hear because it tailors plans to consider the realities.

When I first decided I wanted to move to Spain I didn't know where and all the rest of it. this site and other research has helped hugely, doubling my savings, work ops.

What I take exception to is being told not to move and about what's best for my kids.


----------



## Mushu7

Oh and I am a planning freak, so I'm quite enjoying the research (it's a distraction from stuff I should be doing as well). We've set a date to be out in Spain now and even planning another NYC/Florida holiday before we move ... Because we can.


----------



## Maureen47

Hi , we moved here 10 months ago , we planned it for a long time, we have finished work for now but are not retirement age. It wasnt a dream as such but it was something we wanted make reality and required a lot of planning to allow a smooth transition to Spanish life. I have recently been offered a job but decided that the type of job it was (teaching 8-10 yr olds English in a local Private school on Saturday monrnings) wasnt for me as the lesson planning and all the other stuff means its much more than a Saturday morning job. We have a Casita on our land too which is another opprotunity to earn money but we are not sure if we want to do that either and at the moment our family and friends are enjoying coming to stay in it. Our children are grown up and have stayed in the UK so we have freedom to do as we please. Its one of those decsions that if you do it for me you make the best of it and if it doesnt work you change it and at least you have had a different life experience which will influence future choices. For us life is good in Spain , who knows what the well discussed Brexit will bring in the future but hey every challenge is an opportunity , Good Luck ;-)


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## bob_bob

I wish my two grown children would pack up, grab the grand kids and move to New Zealand...we'd be on the next plane after them


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## Justina

*moving*



bob_bob said:


> I wish my two grown children would pack up, grab the grand kids and move to New Zealand...we'd be on the next plane after them


But it is a little far away, isn't it?
If it it was all of the family, then fine and good luck to you.


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## bob_bob

It pretty much is all of the family, I've one aged aunt living in London, a cousin in Australia and another in New Zealand so the only thing keeping the wife and eye in the UK is our grown children and grand children, to be honest we can comfortably afford to live anywhere.


----------



## Evilbungle

Mushu7 said:


> Climate is a huge reason for us as a family, my kids being out playing rather than stuck in side is just one climate related reason among others.


As I mentioned to begin with I did not plan on moving to Spain and before April of this year hadn't ever given it a seconds thought. 

However the one thing that I love the most is how much outside play my daughter gets. Back in the UK we would make an effort to take her swimming at least once a week but it was very expensive and time consuming so Swimming was limited by how much time we had and normally consisted of 30 minute sessions between other activities. Now she can just pop down the stairs to our outside section so she swims several times a week (Although after how cold the pool was this weekend it may not last much longer.) and the toys she wants have switched from Skylander figures to diving weights/body boards/tennis rackets. As we have only been here a few weeks we missed the best of the summer but still have plans to head to the beach at weekends, the sun bathing may be over soon for the Winter but I am hoping that just means that the beach is better for tennis, vollyball and football. 

It may not have been part of our thinking on coming but their is no greater feeling than when she switches off the TV because she wants to go and climb on the rocks (Don't worry they are safe and I stay very close by  )


----------



## Isobella

Barcelona can be as cold as some parts of the U.K. In winter. In some parts of Spain it can be too hot to let children play out unless in the shade.


----------



## Simon22

Isobella said:


> Barcelona can be as cold as some parts of the U.K. In winter. In some parts of Spain it can be too hot to let children play out unless in the shade.


It's never too hot to play outside! Slip! Slop! Slap! Original SunSmart Campaign - SunSmart


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> If you can't see the negativity then you are too consumed in it.
> 
> I am moving to Spain. No ifs or buts it's happening, this site has been very useful in tweaking my plans. But is it helpful to tell me not to make the move, go somewhere else instead, or to wait until my children have grown up? It seems continuous. I give a little bit of information and a group of you attempt to disect it? Whether intentional it is certainly how it comes across to me. And I am not talking about just my own situation.
> 
> I'm not here to qualify my reasons for anything, I'm here for help and advice on moving to Spain, not if or when I should do it.


Rubbish. Why should I be 'consumed by negativity'? As you yourself said about others, you know nothing about me or my life here so don't presume to make judgments.
There is no negativity on this thread, just facts from people living in Spain, some for many years and from others working in Spain. 
You asked for advice, you got it. Drop the attitude and take note of what people who know what they're talking about are telling you. It could save you a lot of problems later. I moved here from Prague, knowing very little about contemporary Spain although I spent a lot of time here thirty years ago. The information I got was extremely helpful although not all of it fitted in with my ideas of what was possible. I'm very thankful I had some silly unrealistic notions dismissed before we made our move.
Frankly, I have zero interest in whether you ever move to Spain or not. It's not as if you're coming to live next door to me, you seem to sway between La Linea area and the Canaries. What I've done is to tell you the things I've learned from eight years of living here, working with various organisations in my community, hence knowing about employment prospects, education and so on and I've given you facts and opinions. I'm usually grateful for advice, whether good or bad, if it's helpful.
Fyi I'm a retired professional, my OH and I owned businesses and we had a sideline in property rentals.
One day in September eleven years ago we suddenly decided we'd had enough and decided to retire, leave and live abroad. By December we were gone, never to return. The original plan was to spend time in various European countries then retire back to Scotland. But we decided to stay in Spain.
We sold all UK and one overseas property, had no dependent children to worry about, enough money to live our chosen lifestyle and we both had experience of living abroad.
But even so advice from people on this Forum helped massively in easing ourselves into our life here -and still does even after all this time -and even the no-nos were invaluable. The idea that people who counselled against some of my sillier ideas were being 'negative' never entered my head.


----------



## mrypg9

Simon22 said:


> It's never too hot to play outside! Slip! Slop! Slap! Original SunSmart Campaign - SunSmart


Not entirely true and depends entirely on the part of Spain....It's rare round here to see Spanish children playing outside in 40C temperatures, whatever precautions that may be taken. Our neighbours have rigged up an elaborate tent-like structure around their terrace and swimming pool to protect their grandchildren from direct sun.

Here in Western Andalucia we've had several yellow alerts and a couple of orange alerts warning against extreme temperatures. Not sure but I think some inland areas even had a red alert or a day or two.

When we first got here a few years ago we put our loungers on the terrace by the pool, slathered ourselves in sun cream and sunbathed from sun up to sun down. We used to wonder why the streets emptied and our Spanish neighbours disappeared for most of the afternoon. We soon learned. 
Now we rarely if ever 'sunbathe'. If you're keen to get a tan you can get one just doing the everyday things, shopping etc. We do siesta now like everyone else round here!


----------



## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> Rubbish. Why should I be 'consumed by negativity'? As you yourself said about others, you know nothing about me or my life here so don't presume to make judgments.
> There is no negativity on this thread, just facts from people living in Spain, some for many years and from others working in Spain.
> You asked for advice, you got it. *Drop the attitude *and take note of what people who know what they're talking about are telling you. It could save you a lot of problems later. I moved here from Prague, knowing very little about contemporary Spain although I spent a lot of time here thirty years ago. The information I got was extremely helpful although not all of it fitted in with my ideas of what was possible. I'm very thankful I had some silly unrealistic notions dismissed before we made our move.
> *Frankly, I have zero interest in whether you ever move to Spain or not*. It's not as if you're coming to live next door to me, you seem to sway between La Linea area and the Canaries. What I've done is to tell you the things I've learned from eight years of living here, working with various organisations in my community, hence knowing about employment prospects, education and so on and I've given you facts and opinions. I'm usually grateful for advice, whether good or bad, if it's helpful.
> Fyi I'm a retired professional, my OH and I owned businesses and we had a sideline in property rentals.
> One day in September eleven years ago we suddenly decided we'd had enough and decided to retire, leave and live abroad. By December we were gone, never to return. The original plan was to spend time in various European countries then retire back to Scotland. But we decided to stay in Spain.
> We sold all UK and one overseas property, had no dependent children to worry about, enough money to live our chosen lifestyle and we both had experience of living abroad.
> But even so advice from people on this Forum helped massively in easing ourselves into our life here -and still does even after all this time -and even the no-nos were invaluable. The idea that people who counselled against some of my sillier ideas were being 'negative' never entered my head.


You think there is no negativity - I do. The End!!!

You keep going on saying I dont like negative advice. I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall because that IS NOT what I am saying.

The fact I am swinging between Southern Spain and Canaries shows I am weighing up realistic options. I could just move out now with no plan and little money behind me. Planning, researching and saving doesnt appear to conform to your standards of what I should be doing. 

And considering you have zero interest in whether I move to Spain or not (I can only assume you reward that level of interest to everyone else) I would appreciate if you bypass all my posts from now on. When I seek advice on this particular forum in future, I can't be sure your responses will be coming from a genuine place.

I'll be delving into this site for at least another 2 years, possibly annoying you with my 'dreams' and 'aspirations'. My plans may well change countless times between now and then, who knows. I'm certainly not going to stop to appease any strangers on this forum that think its a bad idea, or it won't work etc etc.

I will always welcome realistic advice (which encompasses positive and negative).


----------



## Mushu7

xabiachica said:


> I think jojo moved here 7 or 8 years ago & has been back in the UK maybe 4 years now - so her experience isn't that recent & lots has changed since she lived here tbh.
> 
> It was her youngest who didn't settle - but tween/teen years are difficult no matter where you live
> 
> *I know lots of people who have moved here with kids in the past few years. Almost all have one parent - usually the father - working offshore. *Those with younger kids have mostly put them into Spanish state school & older kids go to International school.


I may well be in that category, though it is the absolute last option for us. We've already done the working away thing so don't want to go down that route again. Weighing up all the options really, thats all we can do. It's comforting to know that many others do this though, and is again something to take on board.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> Barcelona can be as cold as some parts of the U.K. In winter. In some parts of Spain it can be too hot to let children play out unless in the shade.


Totally agree, no one in their right mind lets kid play out in the heat of summer. Children here, tend to be out later in the evening playing when it is cooler

I do think that many people really believe that Spain is never cold never too hot and the answer to all the problems in the UK. Living and working in Spain is no different to living and working in the UK but with a different set of rules and culture. It suits some but not others, everyone takes their chances


----------



## Pazcat

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, there are members who have, but maybe have not chosen to write on this thread .


Well, I did comment earlier but not really sure what I can offer up. Like I said Spain in itself was not an objective for us it just happened to tick a certain amount of boxes, it was a really tough call in the end too but here we are.
It's a stepping stone to help us reach that future objective.

I guess the one thing I would suggest is the work, there is no way we would of moved here without the job already in place. I certainly wouldn't just assume you can move and find work easy enough. Maybe you can, maybe not. The hiring process itself in some jobs can be quite long so that would be my starting point.
You may find the job but then it may not be where you intended but that is no reason to disregard it.

As for the kids, well kids adapt but I'm not sure what practical advice there is to offer. Yeah they get a pool now and that is cool but home life is practically the same anywhere.


----------



## Megsmum

Pazcat said:


> Well, I did comment earlier but not really sure what I can offer up. Like I said Spain in itself was not an objective for us it just happened to tick a certain amount of boxes, it was a really tough call in the end too but here we are.
> It's a stepping stone to help us reach that future objective.
> 
> I guess the one thing I would suggest is the work, there is no way we would of moved here without the job already in place. I certainly wouldn't just assume you can move and find work easy enough. Maybe you can, maybe not. The hiring process itself in some jobs can be quite long so that would be my starting point.
> You may find the job but then it may not be where you intended but that is no reason to disregard it.
> 
> As for the kids, well kids adapt but I'm not sure what practical advice there is to offer. Yeah they get a pool now and that is cool but home life is practically the same anywhere.


Yes I think you have highlighted the things that any sensible person thinking of moving anywhere should focus on



> there is no way we would of moved here without the job already in place.


Especailly with children



> home life is practically the same anywhere.


Yep daily grind is still daily grind


----------



## tebo53

cambio said:


> Yes I think you have highlighted the things that any sensible person thinking of moving anywhere should focus on


Only if you need to have a job or provide for children. Those statements don't need to apply to people who don't need to work etc

Steve


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Simon22 said:


> It's never too hot to play outside! Slip! Slop! Slap! Original SunSmart Campaign - SunSmart


To me the heat is one thing and being in the sun is another. There's no way I'd have let my daughter play out in the _heat_ we had this summer in the sun or the shade. It was just too *!*!*! hot.
The fact is that she's now 22 and had little interest in playing in the sun or the heat


----------



## Megsmum

tebo53 said:


> Only if you need to have a job or provide for children. Those statements don't need to apply to people who don't need to work etc
> 
> Steve


Agree but my impression was that the OP was looking at work and had children, obvioulsy if you do not need work it does not apply


----------



## baldilocks

cambio said:


> Agree but my impression was that the OP was looking at work and had children, obvioulsy if you do not need work it does not apply


Sorry but the OP's original question was simply as it is in the title. Others have since hi-jacked the thread and made it into one about personal issues instead of starting a new thread pertinent to their needs.


----------



## Mushu7

baldilocks said:


> cambio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree but my impression was that the OP was looking at work and had children, obvioulsy if you do not need work it does not apply
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but the OP's original question was simply as it is in the title. Others have since hi-jacked the thread and made it into one about personal issues instead of starting a new thread pertinent to their needs.
Click to expand...

As with most threads they drift off until they drift back.


----------



## Megsmum

baldilocks said:


> Sorry but the OP's original question was simply as it is in the title. Others have since hi-jacked the thread and made it into one about personal issues instead of starting a new thread pertinent to their needs.





Mushu7 said:


> As with most threads they drift off until they drift back.


I apologise and stand corrected. Note to self always check thread originopcorn:


----------



## mrypg9

cambio said:


> I apologise and stand corrected. Note to self always check thread originopcorn:


Don't worry about it

The answer to the OP is simple, really, either Yes or No.
Then there are those who never get past the 'dreaming' stage.....


----------



## Simon22

It's not a dream but it's a lovely place with friendly people and so far, the best place we've lived.


----------



## 95995

Mushu7 said:


> Another 38 years for me so you can only imagine what will happen during that time.
> 
> I can no longer receive my work pension at 60 either, I have to wait until 68, no lump sums or any other of the benefits my works pension used to have.
> 
> I was considering continuing contributing to NI while living in Spain. But because I am quite confident all my contributions already for my state pension will be for nothing, I probably won't bother.


Have to admit that the thing that surprises me is that, at your age, you are so focused on the pension. At your age it never even crossed my mind. That said, I did have 4.5 years "stolen"  from me - but that is actually about life expectancy, and of course I had already moved to Australia and the Australian aged pension became a very basic safety net that was certainly not going to enable me to survive there. In the meantime, although some what late for me, superannuation (I guess pretty much the equivalent of your works pension and they certainly do change the 'rules' all the time so it's not really possible to plan around that unless you have a very high income - but even then nothing is certain and it's money at risk) was introduced for everyone, so I did end up having a small pot from that (lost about a third in the GFC and the amount is not much given I only had it for the last 20 years of my working life). But in any case, I had planned and had a reasonable expectation that I would work until 70 by choice (bar any major unforeseen health issue) - as it turned out, that didn't end up being the case and I found myself out of work at 63 with zero income and eking out a redundancy payout. But heck, you take these things in your stride, surely. 

If I were you I would totally ignore the pension issue (other than doing your best to put money aside for your old age) and make the most of your life without the bitterness. Nothing is for ever, nothing is certain, and I'm sure even most older Brits here would confirm that. IMHO the biggest issue (and it is a major one) for younger people right now is precarity of employment, so if you can overcome that, good on you.

That said, there are certainly those who have been fortunate enough to take early retirement and perhaps don't really how fortunate they are (even if they have worked hard, saved, etc - there are others who have done the same but will never be able to take early retirement).

Good luck


----------



## Mushu7

EverHopeful said:


> Have to admit that the thing that surprises me is that, at your age, you are so focused on the pension. At your age it never even crossed my mind. That said, I did have 4.5 years "stolen" :That said, there are certainly those who have been fortunate enough to take early retirement and perhaps don't really how fortunate they are (even if they have worked hard, saved, etc - there are others who have done the same but will never be able to take early retirement).
> 
> Good luck


Thank you EverHopeful.

I've always been ignorant of pensions simply because it was ages away (and continues to be bloody ages away). I only took interest when 'the system' tried to take my grandparents pensions away AND their house to fund their care in the care homes they unfortunately had to go to. Made me think about "those other things" for when my children are older. It's amazing how that house people work years and years to buy to leave to their children is used as monopoly pawns when you are older.

Never mind, they can't take my dreams away from me. They will not destroy me


----------



## 95995

Mushu7 said:


> Thank you EverHopeful.
> 
> I've always been ignorant of pensions simply because it was ages away (and continues to be bloody ages away). I only took interest when 'the system' tried to take my grandparents pensions away AND their house to fund their care in the care homes they unfortunately had to go to. Made me think about "those other things" for when my children are older. It's amazing how that house people work years and years to buy to leave to their children is used as monopoly pawns when you are older.
> 
> Never mind, they can't take my dreams away from me. They will not destroy me


Those are a couple of the other things that you can't fully plan for - what happens in old age and that you will still have assets to leave to your children. That said, if you can sell a major asset to pay for your aged care, that's actually better for you and for your children than not having an asset to sell  My British grandmother went into aged care and eventually died many years before the pension changes - in the long run it still cost her all of her assets and other savings, despite being on the OAP. That will not get any better with an ageing population (I could apologise for being a baby-boomer, but I didn't choose when I was born  ).


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Thank you EverHopeful.
> 
> I've always been ignorant of pensions simply because it was ages away (and continues to be bloody ages away). I only took interest when 'the system' tried to take my grandparents pensions away AND their house to fund their care in the care homes they unfortunately had to go to. Made me think about "those other things" for when my children are older. It's amazing how that house people work years and years to buy to leave to their children is used as monopoly pawns when you are older.
> 
> Never mind, they can't take my dreams away from me. They will not destroy me


My daughter-in-law's mother has severe dementia and will be going into suitable accommodation.
She has a house in Ferndown near Bournemouth worth around £750k plus savings. The house will be sold to meet the costs of her care.
Do you really think the state aka the taxpayer should fund the cost of her care so that her assets can be handed down to her daughter who has a very highly paid job and lives in a house in an even more expensive area in Surrey?
Complicated.


----------



## timcall94

Good for you....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

timcall94 said:


> Good for you....


Who?
Click on reply with quote


----------



## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> My daughter-in-law's mother has severe dementia and will be going into suitable accommodation.
> She has a house in Ferndown near Bournemouth worth around £750k plus savings. The house will be sold to meet the costs of her care.
> Do you really think the state aka the taxpayer should fund the cost of her care so that her assets can be handed down to her daughter who has a very highly paid job and lives in a house in an even more expensive area in Surrey?
> Complicated.


So, if she had cancer or some other awful disease that required long-term hospital or hospice care, should the taxpayer fund this or should the family be forced to liquidate assets to pay the medical bills? I don't understand why dementia is not recognised as an illness like any other that should be treated by the NHS.


----------



## mrypg9

The Skipper said:


> So, if she had cancer or some other awful disease that required long-term hospital or hospice care, should the taxpayer fund this or should the family be forced to liquidate assets to pay the medical bills? I don't understand why dementia is not recognised as an illness like any other that should be treated by the NHS.


She is being treated at home by the NHS, has a home help for a very short period a few times a week. But she will shortly be too ill to be living alone even though family members take turns to spend time with her., staying overnight so she is not always alone. But they work and can't be there 100% of the time, as will soon be needed.As I understand it, most hospices are funded by charitable donations. The one my partner's mother died in was.
I just can't see why taxpayers, many on low incomes, should foot the bill for the care of a woman with substantial assets in order for her to pass on that asset to my son and dil who have a very nice home in the UK and good incomes themselves as well as a house in Spain.
How does that make sense?
Sounds like another example, like bailing out banks, of socialism for the well-off.


----------



## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> She is being treated at home by the NHS, has a home help for a very short period a few times a week. But she will shortly be too ill to be living alone even though family members take turns to spend time with her., staying overnight so she is not always alone. But they work and can't be there 100% of the time, as will soon be needed.As I understand it, most hospices are funded by charitable donations. The one my partner's mother died in was.
> I just can't see why taxpayers, many on low incomes, should foot the bill for the care of a woman with substantial assets in order for her to pass on that asset to my son and dil who have a very nice home in the UK and good incomes themselves as well as a house in Spain.
> How does that make sense?
> Sounds like another example, like bailing out banks, of socialism for the well-off.


I see the point you are making but I still don't understand why dementia is treated differently from any other illness. Following your argument to its logical conclusion every rich person who is terminally ill should be made to pay for their care. Should the NHS only look after those who don't have money in the bank or assets that can be sold to pay for their care? I don't think that would be very popular with the electorate!


----------



## timcall94

Faith is the bird that feels the light, and sings when the dawn is still dark....:israel:


mrypg9 said:


> I intensely dislike that phrase 'Spanish dream'. Many people who come to Spain to find it often end up living the Spanish nightmare as they have a totally unrealistic view of what life in Spain is really like, especially if they plan to move over families and look for work.
> I also think that if the content of your dreams consists of sun with a bit of beach and a few palm trees thrown in .....you need to aim for a better class of dream.
> That may sound sour but the fact is that life goes on along the same lines and is what you make of it wherever you find yourself in the world. Having enough money to live your chosen lifestyle is essential too....sunshine doesn't really relieve misery when the money runs out.
> WE left the UK eleven years ago and spent three years in Prague. Our first choice was Canada, we bought a property there but it was too cold in winter, too hot in summer and too far away. Our second choice was Amsterdam but the part of the city we liked was far beyond our means, alas.
> So Prague, a city I knew well, having spent [periods of time there for over forty years.
> Spending holidays in a place and living there are two totally different things and after three years we'd had enough of Prague. Our family has property in Spain so we decided to give it a try. I hated the first few months here. We rented an apartment, big mistake as we'd never lived in a flat before and I couldn't get used to having people so close. The apartment was in a community with many British people, all very nice, but it seemed strange to wake up to blue skies, palm trees and English voices.
> Then we found the house we have been living in for over seven years, on the edge of a quiet village, near two towns, lovely Spanish neighbours and here we will stay. Forever. We had planned a few years here then a year in France then ending our days in Glasgow's Merchant City but this is our home.
> I came with no expectations and few hopes but I wake up each day feeling thankful I live here.
> You just have to find the spot that suits you. Dreaming doesn't help, really.


----------



## mrypg9

timcall94 said:


> Faith is the bird that feels the light, and sings when the dawn is still dark....:israel:


And dead would be the singing bird that awoke my neighbour Juan whilst the dawn is still dark for he would do for it with his air rifle...


----------



## mrypg9

The Skipper said:


> I see the point you are making but I still don't understand why dementia is treated differently from any other illness. Following your argument to its logical conclusion every rich person who is terminally ill should be made to pay for their care. Should the NHS only look after those who don't have money in the bank or assets that can be sold to pay for their care? I don't think that would be very popular with the electorate!


I can see your point too
The current situation seems to be that assets such as a house or any savings do have to go towards supporting someone in need of dementia care or long-term care generally.
It depends on your political outlook I guess. Mrs. Thatcher advocated a society where we 'stood on our own two feet' and looked to family or our own resources when in need. Yet she also supported wholeheartedly the idea that 'hard won' assets should be handed down to sons or daughters....and of course Tories vigorously oppose any extension of Inheritance Tax.
I believe in a NHS open to all free at the point of use as a general principle but there seems to be so many instances these days where its application to individual cases is open to discussion, such as treating the obese, alcoholics etc....where do you draw the line when resources are rationed?
Incidentally, the 'Spanish dream' is souring a bit where the regional health services are concerned. Central Government austerity has affected the provision of regional health care in Andalucia severely. Waiting times for operations have increased by over 8% in the past year. An elderly friend has had his non-urgent but necessary operation cancelled three times by the CdS Hospital Marbella. I have an annual cardio check usually at this time of year but haven't as yet been notified of a date for it.


----------



## Lynn R

I can see both sides of the problem regarding long term care for the elderly and particularly dementia sufferers. Yes, it's an illness and it seems unfair that it isn't treated in the same way as other illnesses. 

I also agree with Mary, though, that it seems unfair for the taxpayer to foot the bill if the person requiring care has substantial assets. so that those assets can be passed on intact to their family. If they have to go into a home they no longer need their house, and they won't be paying their own bills for food, lighting, heatiing, laundry etc.

The real problem, of course, is the ageing population and the enormous cost of residential care. My sister is Head Housekeeper at a large, quite recently built care complex. They have apartments for people just requiring sheltered accommodation, rooms for those requiring full time 24/7 care, and a specialist dementia unit. The fees for residential care start at 750 pounds per week, much more for the dementia unit. If the public decided that this care must be completely funded by the taxpayer, it would require a fundamental reassessment of priorities regarding how public money should be spent (what else do you stop spending on to fund this care for everyone?) and/or substantial tax rises for everybody. 

What is really unfair is that it is acknowledged that people in care homes who are self-funders are charged more than local authorities pay for places which they fund for people who don't have enough assets to be liable to pay. so the self-funders are not only paying for themselves but a proportion of the costs for others as well, in addition to the general contributions they make through their taxes.


----------



## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> My daughter-in-law's mother has severe dementia and will be going into suitable accommodation.
> She has a house in Ferndown near Bournemouth worth around £750k plus savings. The house will be sold to meet the costs of her care.
> Do you really think the state aka the taxpayer should fund the cost of her care so that her assets can be handed down to her daughter who has a very highly paid job and lives in a house in an even more expensive area in Surrey?
> Complicated.


Didn't you inherit a few properties that has funded/contributed towards your new lifestyle?

Most people, like my grandparents, plough money into their home in order for their children to have something when they are gone. They forego many things in order to do this. What would be the point in working hard all your life and foregoing lifes pleasures, when it all gets taken off you anyway, if Godforbid you have an illness that doesn't fit 'the system'. When someone else who opted not to buy a home and enjoyed lifes pleasures, gets free treatment for the same illness.

Also what is substantial to you is different to me.

As Lynn says later on, the care given in a care home is the same, yet paying residents are charged more than LA residents. That was certainly the case with my GF's carehome. We had to fight tooth and nail for my GM to get funding for end of life care, apparently being told you are terminal and have a few months if you are lucky to live is not a stepping stone to end of life care! We had success ... 2 months after she died.

For close families the decision of a carehome is not a light one. One of the hardest decisions we have all had to make. But for 'the system' to try and strip us all of everything my grandparents worked hard for is a hard pill to swallow. As it turns out none of it affected us as much as it could have.

Also just to clarify, my point of view with regards to the funding of care homes is from illness like cancer and dementia.


----------



## Alcalaina

The Skipper said:


> I see the point you are making but I still don't understand why dementia is treated differently from any other illness. Following your argument to its logical conclusion every rich person who is terminally ill should be made to pay for their care. Should the NHS only look after those who don't have money in the bank or assets that can be sold to pay for their care? I don't think that would be very popular with the electorate!


I agree. The distinction in England between what is classed as healthcare (funded by the NHS) and residential care (funded by local authorities) is meaningless in the case of people who can't look after themselves because of their condition, whether it's mental or physical. If the patient owns an expensive property, the taxpayer will be compensated via inheritance tax after their demise.


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> Didn't you inherit a few properties that has funded/contributed towards your new lifestyle?
> 
> 
> .


Didn't you post something earlier about making assumptions about people of whom you know nothing??? 
My father died from war injuries when I was a toddler. He came home from serving in Malta during the siege and died after the War ended. He never worked at his trade again.
My mother went out to work scrubbing floors and she moved with me into my grandparents' rented house where she lived until she died. She worked until her early seventies then looked after my elderly grandmother.
My mother left £300 rolled up in a stocking hidden in an old handbag when she died. That an insurance policy that barely covered the costs of her funeral.
So no, I didn't inherit anything in terms of money. But what I inherited was more important. I inherited a determination to benefit from the excellent education I received, the values of hard work, self-discipline and self-respect I saw in my mother.
I don't have a 'new' lifestyle here in Spain so there's your second mistaken assumption. My lifestyle has always been the same in that I've been lucky enough to have had a good career, my partner had successful businesses and we've enjoyed life wherever we've found ourselves.
Every cent we own has been earned through our efforts. We've paid our taxes, helped others less fortunate in many different ways and both of us have all our lives worked for voluntary organisations - we still do here in Spain. Nobody helped us, no handouts. 
We're not rich but not poor and when we kick the bucket any money left will go to Dogs Trust and our books to Estepona Municipal Library. Not one cent will go to my son and dil because they have more than enough already. They fully understand and agree with our decision as they are not vultures waiting for rich pickings from deceased parents.
So I suggest you refrain from false assumptions about people of whom you know nothing. As you told someone else they should do.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I agree. The distinction in England between what is classed as healthcare (funded by the NHS) and residential care (funded by local authorities) is meaningless in the case of people who can't look after themselves because of their condition, whether it's mental or physical. If the patient owns an expensive property, the taxpayer will be compensated via inheritance tax after their demise.


Remind me...at what level does Inheritance Tax begin?

Do you. a socialist, think it right that the care of a person with assets of even £500k should have their care totally funded by the taxpayer in order that this asset may be passed on to their sons or daughters who may themselves have considerable assets of their own and may expect to inherit considerable sums from both parents if they have assets???

As our tax system is constituted at present, the wealthy benefit enough as it is.


----------



## Evilbungle

mrypg9 said:


> Do you. a socialist, think it right that the care of a person with assets of even £500k should have their care totally funded by the taxpayer in order that this asset may be passed on to their sons or daughters who may themselves have considerable assets of their own and may expect to inherit considerable sums from both parents if they have assets???


This might be the only thing I would ever agree with socialists about. The reason to build up a large asset base should be to give yourself options in later life not to provide something to pass on to your decendants. It is not the responsibility of others to pay for your care so you can protect those assets. I greatly hope that my father spends as much of his money as possible on being comfortable and enjoying his retirement. It is the result of his many years of hard work and I have no interest in it!


----------



## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> *Didn't you post something earlier about making assumptions about people of whom you know nothing??? *My father died from war injuries when I was a toddler. He came home from serving in Malta during the siege and died after the War ended. He never worked at his trade again.
> My mother went out to work scrubbing floors and she moved with me into my grandparents' rented house where she lived until she died. She worked until her early seventies then looked after my elderly grandmother.
> My mother left £300 rolled up in a stocking hidden in an old handbag when she died. That an insurance policy that barely covered the costs of her funeral.
> So no, I didn't inherit anything in terms of money. But what I inherited was more important. I inherited a determination to benefit from the excellent education I received, the values of hard work, self-discipline and self-respect I saw in my mother.
> *I don't have a 'new' lifestyle here in Spain so there's your second mistaken assumption.* My lifestyle has always been the same in that I've been lucky enough to have had a good career, my partner had successful businesses and we've enjoyed life wherever we've found ourselves.
> Every cent we own has been earned through our efforts. We've paid our taxes, helped others less fortunate in many different ways and both of us have all our lives worked for voluntary organisations - we still do here in Spain. Nobody helped us, no handouts.
> We're not rich but not poor and when we kick the bucket any money left will go to Dogs Trust and our books to Estepona Municipal Library. Not one cent will go to my son and dil because they have more than enough already. They fully understand and agree with our decision as they are not vultures waiting for rich pickings from deceased parents.
> *So I suggest you refrain from false assumptions about people of whom you know nothing. As you told someone else they should do*.


Oh you are a cloud of doom!

I asked the question "Didn't you inherit a few properties that has funded/contributed towards your new lifestyle?" 

It was a question hence that question mark symbol at the end. You know this one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *?* <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I could have sworn you or your partner inherited rental properties. Maybe I got the wrong person. I didn't accuse you of anything, or make assumptions. I asked FIRST.

You chose to respond the way you did :fencing: 

You stick with leaving your gold to Dogs Trust and I will do my thing for my children. Happy days. 

However your opinion, much like mine is neither right or wrong or more moral than the other. It is what it is!!!!!!


----------



## timcall94

mrypg9 said:


> And dead would be the singing bird that awoke my neighbour Juan whilst the dawn is still dark for he would do for it with his air rifle...


He who lives by the gun, dies by the gun !!


----------



## mrypg9

timcall94 said:


> He who lives by the gun, dies by the gun !!


He who shoots first lives to shoot again (sometimes)


----------



## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> I could have sworn you or your partner inherited rental properties. Maybe I got the wrong person. FIRSTQUOTE
> 
> 
> You are wrong. We had rental properties we bought and refurbished.
> 
> Another wrong assumption as well as the nonsense about 'doom'.
> On the contrary, I have nothing to be gloomy or unhappy about whatsoever.
> Like most people living in Spain, life is good, give or take the usual things people worry about the world over.
> 
> 
> The most valuable assets anyone can pass on to their children are a decent moral character and a sense of responsibility for oneself and care towards others.
> Other material, financial assets count for very little if anything at all if these are lacking.
> I daresay the offspring of Sir Philip Green and his ilk would disagree with that....


----------



## Evilbungle

mrypg9 said:


> He who shoots first lives to shoot again (sometimes)


He who runs away, lives to run away another day - Terry Pratchett


----------



## st3v3y

Wow this thread is fun! I thought why not have a relaxing morning, grab a coffee and read the Spanish Dreams thread!

I understand where Mushu gets the negativity 'feeling' from as some of it does come across that way but I'm sure it wasn't intended even if that is how it felt. Reality can be a difficult thing to face if it isn't what you want to be faced with. But Mishu does seem to be switched on with regards to research and planning so all good in the hood.

Someone said a few pages in (cba to go back and read again) that if your dreams are sunshine and beaches that you need a better class of dream (or something like that) which astounded me tbh. A dream is a personal thing and one persons dream can often be another persons nightmare so it amazes me to be told to adjust my class of dreams. I'm not saying mine are sunshine and beach but even so!

My advice to you Mushu is to research the UK companies that have large operations in Gib and check out their UK vacancies because you may find it easier to get transferred from say Coral UK to Coral Gib than to walk into a job there. They may even contribute to the move if you're good enough. Certainly an option worth considering imho.

Finally, I'm not taking sides in the ongoing battle of wills but this phrase made me smile at the end of my morning read! 



Mushu7 said:


> Oh you are a cloud of doom!


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Remind me...at what level does Inheritance Tax begin?
> 
> Do you. a socialist, think it right that the care of a person with assets of even £500k should have their care totally funded by the taxpayer in order that this asset may be passed on to their sons or daughters who may themselves have considerable assets of their own and may expect to inherit considerable sums from both parents if they have assets???
> 
> As our tax system is constituted at present, the wealthy benefit enough as it is.


Only just over 3% of all estates in the UK actually pay any IHT, and that will go down once the changes introduced by Cameron's Government to allow properties valued at up to 1 million pounds to be inherited free of tax take effect. It simply isn't enough to compensate the state for the residential care costs of everybody who needs it whether they have assets or not, given the scale of the problem (and it's increasing all the time) and the costs (and those are increasing all the time too).


----------



## Evilbungle

st3v3y said:


> My advice to you Mushu is to research the UK companies that have large operations in Gib and check out their UK vacancies because you may find it easier to get transferred from say Coral UK to Coral Gib than to walk into a job there. They may even contribute to the move if you're good enough. Certainly an option worth considering imho.


Great Advice and pretty much what I did (Although not by any kind of plan.) As I moved at the behest of my company I get all of my costs paid. I wouldn't want to do it any other way - too much hard work.


----------



## bob_bob

Mushu7 said:


> Oh you are a cloud of doom!
> 
> I asked the question "Didn't you inherit a few properties that has funded/contributed towards your new lifestyle?"
> 
> It was a question hence that question mark symbol at the end. You know this one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *?* <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> I could have sworn you or your partner inherited rental properties. Maybe I got the wrong person. I didn't accuse you of anything, or make assumptions. I asked FIRST.
> 
> You chose to respond the way you did :fencing:
> 
> You stick with leaving your gold to Dogs Trust and I will do my thing for my children. Happy days.
> 
> However your opinion, much like mine is neither right or wrong or more moral than the other. It is what it is!!!!!!


That would be me, my parents inherited properties and added their own, we inherited from then and added our own.

Having more dosh than you need is great 99% of the time but did me no good when I was at deaths door a few years ago...the NHS were far more valuable than cash, bricks and mortar.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Remind me...at what level does Inheritance Tax begin?
> 
> Do you. a socialist, think it right that the care of a person with assets of even £500k should have their care totally funded by the taxpayer in order that this asset may be passed on to their sons or daughters who may themselves have considerable assets of their own and may expect to inherit considerable sums from both parents if they have assets???
> 
> As our tax system is constituted at present, the wealthy benefit enough as it is.


I believe in universal free health and social care funded by the taxpayer. You can't exclude people because they are too rich (or too poor for that matter). 

I have no idea what inheritance tax levels are in the UK, almost certainly too low and almost certainly avoidable with a bit of creative accounting, but that's a different issue.


----------



## Mushu7

st3v3y said:


> Wow this thread is fun! I thought why not have a relaxing morning, grab a coffee and read the Spanish Dreams thread!
> 
> I understand where Mushu gets the negativity 'feeling' from as some of it does come across that way but I'm sure it wasn't intended even if that is how it felt. Reality can be a difficult thing to face if it isn't what you want to be faced with. But Mishu does seem to be switched on with regards to research and planning so all good in the hood.
> 
> Someone said a few pages in (cba to go back and read again) that if your dreams are sunshine and beaches that you need a better class of dream (or something like that) which astounded me tbh. A dream is a personal thing and one persons dream can often be another persons nightmare so it amazes me to be told to adjust my class of dreams. I'm not saying mine are sunshine and beach but even so!
> 
> My advice to you Mushu is to research the UK companies that have large operations in Gib and check out their UK vacancies because you may find it easier to get transferred from say Coral UK to Coral Gib than to walk into a job there. They may even contribute to the move if you're good enough. Certainly an option worth considering imho.
> 
> Finally, I'm not taking sides in the ongoing battle of wills but this phrase made me smile at the end of my morning read!


Thank you so much, really appreciate it. I really can't knock sites like this for the advice and information, it has and will continue to be a great tool for me.

Already on top of your advice  A job in Gib has come up in the place I work, however it's too soon, and not for me. They don't come up often at all, but it needs to be as close to the right job as possible. I have also emailed an endless amount of people from an endless amount of companies. Some have responded, some haven't. But i'm certainly plugging away at it.

Certain things I read on this site trigger thoughts and ideas, so I am just doing what I can.




Evilbungle said:


> Great Advice and pretty much what I did (Although not by any kind of plan.) As I moved at the behest of my company I get all of my costs paid. I wouldn't want to do it any other way - too much hard work.


Company move would be a bonus. Less hassle and stress


----------



## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> Remind me...at what level does Inheritance Tax begin?
> 
> Do you. a socialist, think it right that the care of a person with assets of even £500k should have their care totally funded by the taxpayer in order that this asset may be passed on to their sons or daughters who may themselves have considerable assets of their own and may expect to inherit considerable sums from both parents if they have assets???
> 
> As our tax system is constituted at present, the wealthy benefit enough as it is.


Remind me .... how do ordinary people accumulate their wealth? They generally work hard, pay taxes on what they earn and live a financially responsible life. Why should they be penalised for having wealth that has already once been taxed? My mother had a very good friend. One day they compared their State pensions and my mother was shocked to find that her friend received substantially more than she did. She asked me to find out why so I investigated. Her friend lived alone in a three-bedroom council house but had enjoyed the life of Riley. Her late husband used to own a pub, they had timeshares abroad and had holidays and luxuries galore. But the husband eventually drank away the business and ended up in an early grave, leaving his wife with nothing. My parents (loyal Socialists) lived a very frugal life in a two-bedroom council flat in London. When he retired from a life of work in a factory my father had saved enough cash to buy a small miner's cottage in Cornwall. Unfortunately, he didn't live to enjoy it for too many years but left my mother with her State pension, 50% of his company pension and a few grand in the bank. But because of her income and "assets" she was only entitled to a basic State pension while her friend received substantially more through pension credits (in addition to housing benefits!) ... a reward for reckless living, some might say. Also, if my mum had developed dementia (thankfully she didn't) we would have had to pay for her care. If her friend had developed dementia, the State would have picked up the bill. Is this fair?


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## Mushu7

mrypg9 said:


> Mushu7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could have sworn you or your partner inherited rental properties. Maybe I got the wrong person. FIRSTQUOTE
> 
> 
> You are wrong. We had rental properties we bought and refurbished.
> 
> Another wrong assumption as well as the nonsense about 'doom'.
> On the contrary, I have nothing to be gloomy or unhappy about whatsoever.
> Like most people living in Spain, life is good, give or take the usual things people worry about the world over.
> 
> 
> The most valuable assets anyone can pass on to their children are a decent moral character and a sense of responsibility for oneself and care towards others.
> Other material, financial assets count for very little if anything at all if these are lacking.
> I daresay the offspring of Sir Philip Green and his ilk would disagree with that....
> 
> 
> 
> They are not assumptions, they were questions.
> 
> Doom - is related to your character. I find you a half glass empty type of person. You might not be, but that is how I read the majority of your posts and threads that you have started.
> 
> I do agree that the most valuable asset anyone can pass to their children is moral character. I have no doubt that our versions of such are completely different as well.
Click to expand...


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## Evilbungle

Mushu7 said:


> Company move would be a bonus. Less hassle and stress


I wouldn't say that  There has still been plenty of stress. The main difference is that I have been able to have profesional help on everything and not had to worry about the costs. but it has taken a small army of agencies at last count

2 x relocations agencies (1 in UK and 1 in Spain)
2 x Accountants (1 in UK and 1 in Spain)
3 x removal firms (1 in UK, 1 in Spain and 1 in Canada - which I am still not entirely sure what they did!)
1 x Immigration Law Firm
1 x Local Guide for when we first arrived
1 x Spanish Tutor
1 x Health Insurance
1 x Car Hire Company
1 x Estate Agent

Very glad I am not paying for them all! but I couldn't have done it without them!


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## Lynn R

The Skipper said:


> Remind me .... how do ordinary people accumulate their wealth? They generally work hard, pay taxes on what they earn and live a financially responsible life. Why should they be penalised for having wealth that has already once been taxed? My mother had a very good friend. One day they compared their State pensions and my mother was shocked to find that her friend received substantially more than she did. She asked me to find out why so I investigated. Her friend lived alone in a three-bedroom council house but had enjoyed the life of Riley. Her late husband used to own a pub, they had timeshares abroad and had holidays and luxuries galore. But the husband eventually drank away the business and ended up in an early grave, leaving his wife with nothing. My parents (loyal Socialists) lived a very frugal life in a two-bedroom council flat in London. When he retired from a life of work in a factory my father had saved enough cash to buy a small miner's cottage in Cornwall. Unfortunately, he didn't live to enjoy it for too many years but left my mother with her State pension, 50% of his company pension and a few grand in the bank. But because of her income and "assets" she was only entitled to a basic State pension while her friend received substantially more through pension credits (in addition to housing benefits!) ... a reward for reckless living, some might say. Also, if my mum had developed dementia (thankfully she didn't) we would have had to pay for her care. If her friend had developed dementia, the State would have picked up the bill. Is this fair?


On the other hand ....

I have an aunt aged 92 who receives Pension Credit, and lives alone in a 3 bedroom semi. She is in that position because, as an umarried daughter living at home, she gave up her job to look after my grandfather who lost his sight very suddenly due to a detached retina, not long after he'd retired, and she did that for over 20 years (at a time when there was no such thing as Carer's Allowance and they both had to live on just his OAP) - having previously nursed my grandmother at home before she died of cancer. When my grandfather died my aunt got a job, and was delighted to be able to do so, but she was forced to retire at 65 although she really didn't want to, as that was before the age discrimination legislation was introduced. She inherited the house from her father although it is worth very little as it was badly affected by mining subsidence and it's barely been modernised since it was built in the 1930s. 

She saved the state a fortune by preventing my grandfather having to go into a home and allowing my grandmother to die at home instead of being hospitalised.

If she ends up having to receive care herself, I think that would be fair recompense for the state to pay for it.

Not everyone who has not amassed enough assets to have to pay for their own care in old age is in that position due to fecklessness.


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## mrypg9

Mushu7 said:


> .
> 
> Doom - is related to your character. I find you a half glass empty type of person. You might not be, but that is how I read the majority of your posts and threads that you have started.
> 
> .


There you go again, making assumptions about the character of someone you've never met
People who know me would not agree with you. I consider myself very fortunate to have lived and to still be living a very contented, fulfilling life.
The 'reading' of your character from posts might not give a picture of you that you would agree with.
That's why sensible people don't judge character from internet posts. We can all invent, elaborate, make ourselves something we are not.
So...instead of doing Mystic Meg character reading from afar, I think you have got more than enough practical and sound advice from we who live here for you to consider if your 'dream' is ever to become reality.
Real life is always better than dreams, if you're a happy, fortunate person.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> .
> 
> She saved the state a fortune by preventing my grandfather having to go into a home and allowing my grandmother to die at home instead of being hospitalised.
> 
> If she ends up having to receive care herself, I think that would be fair recompense for the state to pay for it.
> 
> Not everyone who has not amassed enough assets to have to pay for their own care in old age is in that position due to fecklessness.


I totally agree. And my mother gave up her charring work in her seventies to look after my ninety year old grandmother because she wanted her to spend her last years at home cared for by family.

I 'liked' Alca's post because I agreed with most of it but in this day and age I can't agree with the principle of universality. It would be fine and dandy if there were sufficient resources and if the gap between the haves and have nots were not so great.
Anyone with a mortgage or debt-free asset of say £500k lives on another planet from the 60% of working people whose wages are so low that they are topped up by Tax Credits (the taxpayer).
Bevan once said that 'the language of socialism is the language of priorities' and when resources are scarce as now, choices have to be made. 
Many people get round IHT levels by using legal loopholes as did Tony Benn, that other great socialist. He always used the NHS, as befits a person of socialist principles. But he was married to an American millionairess and it could be said that had he used his money to buy private healthcare he would have been freeing resources for a poorer person.
Like I said, it's complicated, each case has its own merits. But then we elect Governments to deal with these things and hopefully come up with just and equitable solutions.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> I totally agree. And my mother gave up her charring work in her seventies to look after my ninety year old grandmother because she wanted her to spend her last years at home cared for by family.
> 
> I 'liked' Alca's post because I agreed with most of it but in this day and age I can't agree with the principle of universality. It would be fine and dandy if there were sufficient resources and if the gap between the haves and have nots were not so great.
> Anyone with a mortgage or debt-free asset of say £500k lives on another planet from the 60% of working people whose wages are so low that they are topped up by Tax Credits (the taxpayer).
> Bevan once said that 'the language of socialism is the language of priorities' and when resources are scarce as now, choices have to be made.
> Many people get round IHT levels by using legal loopholes as did Tony Benn, that other great socialist. He always used the NHS, as befits a person of socialist principles. But he was married to an American millionairess and it could be said that had he used his money to buy private healthcare he would have been freeing resources for a poorer person.
> Like I said, it's complicated, each case has its own merits. But then we elect Governments to deal with these things and hopefully come up with just and equitable solutions.


Another reason why this whole problem of care for the elderly is so huge now, and we cannot dodge this, is that my generation is not nearly so inclined to care for their elderly relatives themselves, full time, as my parents' and aunt's generation was. In addition to my aunt having cared for both her parents, my mother was the carer for my great-grandmother (in whose house my parents lived after their marriage, until my father inherited it after she died).

Having seen what the lives of my mother and aunt were like, to be perfectly honest I would not be prepared to have a life of sheer drudgery and financial hardship like that. The main burden of being a carer still, as it always has done, falls overwhelmingly on women and I rejected that from an early age. From the age of 14 I was the respite carer for my grandfather, as my parents would take my aunt away on holiday with them to give her a break as soon as they felt I was old enough to be left in charge. They had no chance to provide adequately for themselves in their own old age as so much of what should have been their working life was spent in providing unpaid care, and still today society does not value what they do enough and the rewards for their efforts are derisory. 

The way the crisis in residential care provision and costs is building up, I would not be surprised if many more families are forced back into taking on this burden themselves, and it will be mainly women it falls on. Back to the 1950s in more ways than one.

Personally, I've no qualms about using my own money and my house having to be sold if I need care in later life, although I would much rather take a painless injection and shuffle off this mortal coil rather than be kept alive to live a miserable and boring life, unable to do anythinig for myself, simply to enrich some care home owner.


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## Isobella

I am on the fence on this. Mixed feelings. I do empathise with Skippers post. Best to put the house in a trust. I suppose in the case of Mary's DIL would it be possible to rent out the house and pay for care out of the rental?

On the other hand someone I know recently inherited his Mother's property and promptly bought a Rolex and an upmarket car.


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## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> I am on the fence on this. Mixed feelings. I do empathise with Skippers post. Best to put the house in a trust. I suppose in the case of Mary's DIL would it be possible to rent out the house and pay for care out of the rental?
> 
> On the other hand someone I know recently inherited his Mother's property and promptly bought a Rolex and an upmarket car.


I think that's what my prudent dil will do, rent the house and thus keep it......
in that part of the world you'd probably get a good income from renting.

Speaking of rents (as we were) my ex-husband's parents lived in a council flat in Clerkenwell, a part of North London near the Angel now very trendy, back then a typical London working-class area. The flat was quite poky, two bedrooms, tiny kitchen and bathroom, small living room, on the ninth of twelve floors. My ex's brother lives there now. They never thought of exercising their Right to Buy.
I looked up sale and rental prices for those flats the other day.....not far off a million £ to buy.....
Now here's another thought: anyone who bought their flat has made a huge capital gain for zero effort, merely for having lived in a place for a few years. Ditto house prices in general. Of course most people add value to their house by way of decorating etc. but the overall value is determined by the market over which you have no control. Hard work won't make you rich...
Same with negative equity...


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## 95995

mrypg9 said:


> I think that's what my prudent dil will do, rent the house and thus keep it......
> in that part of the world you'd probably get a good income from renting.
> 
> Speaking of rents (as we were) my ex-husband's parents lived in a council flat in Clerkenwell, a part of North London near the Angel now very trendy, back then a typical London working-class area. The flat was quite poky, two bedrooms, tiny kitchen and bathroom, small living room, on the ninth of twelve floors. My ex's brother lives there now. They never thought of exercising their Right to Buy.
> I looked up sale and rental prices for those flats the other day.....not far off a million £ to buy.....
> Now here's another thought: anyone who bought their flat has made a huge capital gain for zero effort, merely for having lived in a place for a few years. Ditto house prices in general. Of course most people add value to their house by way of decorating etc. but the overall value is determined by the market over which you have no control. Hard work won't make you rich...
> Same with negative equity...


Totally agree that hard work won't make you rich (although sometimes it does). There are many other factors, many of which are luck (eg. the circumstances into which you were born, the decisions you make during your life even if based on good reasoning, being in the right place at the right time - the latter is not necessarily even a matter of good planning).


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## st3v3y

I'm probably in the minority but for me I'm all about reducing the amount of tax I have to pay. Can't for the life of me ever get my head around why most people pay what the authorities request without ever questioning it, researching the rules and finding a way to keep more and pay less.

A really simple example of this would be a pediatrician who more often than not will not wear a white coat because children react better to a "non-medical" person. This allows them a clothing allowance that is tax deductible which most don't know. HMRC won't write to them and ask if they're aware of this, they'll take the full tax unless it's claimed back!

Same with everything, it is all in the planning. I intend to leave my son as much as I can and I'll never apologise for that and as long as I don't break any laws then I'm absolutely fine with that. The laws are there to draw a line in the sand. The government in one country may well want you to stay well inside it whilst another will happily let you nudge your toes up to it. Nothing wrong with either choice for me.


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## bob_bob

https://www.rcn.org.uk/membership/tax-relief

Nurses can claim too.

I use whatever legal means available to reduce my taxes (or rather my accountants do) which is not tax dodging its in fact obeying the rules.

One of the best things you can do for your children IMHO is get them on the property ladder as soon as you can. If you have cash don't wait until your dead to leave it to them, start putting as much as you can away in trusts et al so that when they get to 18 or 21 bingo, they have the healthy deposit they need.


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## st3v3y

Exactly Bob. And as you said, this is tax avoidance which is not to be confused with tax evasion.


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## mrypg9

Ahh...but David Cameron said in Parliament that tax avoidance , although legal, is immoral....

HMRC pursued me for several years for tax they said I owed. Each time I asked for a breakdown of how this sum came to be owed the reply was to send an account demanding the amount with more interest added each time. I must have sent six or seven letters requesting a breakdown.
Eventually I contacted an MP I was in touch with, a member of a Treasury Select Committee and passed on the correspondence.
It transpired that far from me owing HMRC, they owed me......
When I got the cheque there was no apology, no explanation of how the repayment had been calculated....

People moan about the power of big business but the power of the state can be worse. The state also has the means of coercion. At one point HMRC threatened that they would hand my debt to the tax authorities here in Spain. I choked on my coffee when I read that.....with mirth, not fear.

OH is similarly receiving demands for payment of tax owed since 2005. No evidence or breakdown of how the debt was accrued....just a demand which increases with interest. The letters were answered but now go in the bin as she is tax resident in Spain anyway. I am too but some of my income is subject to a DTO so I am still under the care of HMRC.


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## st3v3y

The problem is the power of big business is influencing the power of the state more and more which can never be a good thing. Money runs the government, mainstream media and all of the wars and propaganda to go with it. They create the crisis that results in refugees in the first place and these poor people have everything taken from them for what? Oil and cents on the dollar. By now the world should be getting more civilized and peaceful but exactly the opposite is occurring. It's heartbreaking to see what's going on in the world once you dig beneath the veil of mainstream news and see for yourself. 

Sorry for rambling, it's a bit of a passion of mine to help these people.

Anyway, back on topic, I chose Spain because I need to be in and around Gibraltar a lot but not 24/7 and I love all that the stretch of coast from Gib to Marbella has to offer. Well love all of it is a bit strong but there are some lovely places once you break out past San Pedro. So not necessarily a dream, just a sensible choice and better than the other alternative for me which was Malta.


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## Evilbungle

mrypg9 said:


> HMRC pursued me for several years for tax they said I owed. Each time I asked for a breakdown of how this sum came to be owed the reply was to send an account demanding the amount with more interest added each time. I must have sent six or seven letters requesting a breakdown.


I once contacted HMRC as I noticed I was getting my tax free allowance twice. After explaining the situation it transpired that I hadn't been recieving my tax free allowance at all for two years it was then wrongly added to both my incomes for a year. I then recieved a letter saying "they" had found I had underpaid and that I had to pay a couple of thousand or face prosecution. I asked if the couple of thousand included credit from the no tax code years and was told yes. (And made to feel like I was a tax evader when I had clearly stated my second income as an additional income.) over the next few months I recieved three letters reducing the amount I owed due to the years I didn't have a tax code until I eventually ended up with a bill of 27GBP - and people wonder why I am against HMRC being able to debit your bank account directly!


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## mrypg9

st3v3y said:


> The problem is the power of big business is influencing the power of the state more and more which can never be a good thing. Money runs the government, mainstream media and all of the wars and propaganda to go with it. They create the crisis that results in refugees in the first place and these poor people have everything taken from them for what? Oil and cents on the dollar. By now the world should be getting more civilized and peaceful but exactly the opposite is occurring. It's heartbreaking to see what's going on in the world once you dig beneath the veil of mainstream news and see for yourself.
> 
> Sorry for rambling, it's a bit of a passion of mine to help these people.
> 
> Anyway, back on topic, I chose Spain because I need to be in and around Gibraltar a lot but not 24/7 and I love all that the stretch of coast from Gib to Marbella has to offer. Well love all of it is a bit strong but there are some lovely places once you break out past San Pedro. So not necessarily a dream, just a sensible choice and better than the other alternative for me which was Malta.


Totally agree with your first paragraph. The individual citizen is being squeezed between big business and the powerful state.

And yes, there are some beautiful stretches along that coast. My favourite is between San Pedro and Estepona. 
I would have liked to have lived in Berlin, one of my favourite cities but Spain has turned out to be a sensible choice for so many reasons. I've always been too busy getting on with life and enjoying life wherever I found myself to have to 'dream' about anything, luckily, and it never occurred to me that I would ever live in Spain let alone stay for ever until about four months before we actually got here.
I thought we were settled in Prague for a few more years but my partner disliked the winter months of snow and extreme cold and as the family has a house here, Spain was the choice for the next move.
The very fact that I hadn't ever 'dreamed' about living here and was even initially reluctant to stay has made my life here even more enjoyable...Now I wake up every day, look out of the window at the sea beyond the trees and think how fortunate we are.


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## st3v3y

Yes I particularly like Estepona as it is not very English if you know what I mean. Also there is the fabulous fish restaurant in the port area that is pretty much the last place on the left and is always busy but the food is so good (at least every time I've been) so that's no surprise. I love grabbing a coffee in the square and letting the world drift by. I could go on and on but you already know it better than me however I might be requesting a few tips once I've settled in


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## Anciana

mrypg9 said:


> I also think that if the content of your dreams consists of sun with a bit of beach and a few palm trees thrown in .....you need to aim for a better class of dream.


For me the beach needs to be spectacular and rather empty. There also has to be a coral reef close by and a tropical rain forest.  Does it classify as a better class of a dream? No, then throw in some opressed indigenous peoples, whom I could help fighting for their rights. ;-)

I have tried several of retirement paradises of this kind in Central America and Caribean and liked many things in them. Alas, lack of health care in most of them and fast growing cost of health care in Puerto Rico (US) and US proper made me to come back to Europe after spending over 30 years on the other side of Atlantic.

Spain seems to be the warmest - and driest - place within EU, so Spain it is.

I am not complaining about being in Spain. Í acclimatize and assimilate easily practically anywhere (though, having succeeded in my young age to run away from a communist country, I have always refused to take any assignments in countries with oppressive regimes, governed either by religious fanatics or any other kind of fanatics), any sensible climate, any sensible culture ... and good, not overly expensive health care. Aah, and of course, with a beach, good food, good wines :-D


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## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> Ahh...but David Cameron said in Parliament that tax avoidance , although legal, is immoral....
> 
> HMRC pursued me for several years for tax they said I owed. Each time I asked for a breakdown of how this sum came to be owed the reply was to send an account demanding the amount with more interest added each time. I must have sent six or seven letters requesting a breakdown.
> Eventually I contacted an MP I was in touch with, a member of a Treasury Select Committee and passed on the correspondence.
> It transpired that far from me owing HMRC, they owed me......
> When I got the cheque there was no apology, no explanation of how the repayment had been calculated....
> 
> People moan about the power of big business but the power of the state can be worse. The state also has the means of coercion. At one point HMRC threatened that they would hand my debt to the tax authorities here in Spain. I choked on my coffee when I read that.....with mirth, not fear.
> 
> OH is similarly receiving demands for payment of tax owed since 2005. No evidence or breakdown of how the debt was accrued....just a demand which increases with interest. The letters were answered but now go in the bin as she is tax resident in Spain anyway. I am too but some of my income is subject to a DTO so I am still under the care of HMRC.


On all my dealings with HMRC I have had a full breakdown. The last one went to 4 sides of A4 all for £173 complete with interest.


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## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> On all my dealings with HMRC I have had a full breakdown. The last one went to 4 sides of A4 all for £173 complete with interest.


I am obviously being discriminated against as an older, non-heterosexual, disabled (short-sighted, need glasses) female and will address my complaint to the EHRC.


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## bob_bob

mrypg9 said:


> I am obviously being discriminated against as an older, non-heterosexual, disabled (short-sighted, need glasses) female and will address my complaint to the EHRC.


Don't forget you speak all that forin lingo Mary, combined with your comments you must come across as a bad egg to them


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I am obviously being discriminated against as an older, non-heterosexual, disabled (short-sighted, need glasses) female and will address my complaint to the EHRC.


The trouble is with HMRC there is nobody at or near the top to whom you can address your complaints. At least with DWP, there is a Secretary of State and a message of complaint sent to him/her produces results


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