# Smoking ban from Jan 2nd - yes or no?



## Donna773

Does anyone know categorically whether the smoking ban WILL actually come in on January 2nd? Or are they going to find a way around it again? I've been getting all sorts of different vibes this past few days and as I am in the UK for Christmas (brrrr brrrr!) it's difficult to know what the politicians are actually saying.


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## Guest

Fuma !!!


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## jojo

I'm sure they'll be someone along who knows whats happening. I heard that it was a "definite" on 2nd January! But then I heard that it was being discussed again and it was being suggested that they would still allow smoking rooms and areas in public places - but staff of said establishments wouldnt have to enter and breath in those lethal fumes???? So I'm in the dark too. Altho I've never thought that the Spanish would adhere to these rulings willingly???????

So does anyone know for sure???

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

According to RTVE it will come into effect on the 2nd of January

La nueva Ley Antitabaco, cerca de dos aos de pulso para prohibir fumar en bares y restaurantes - RTVE.es



In case you haven't seen it, here is a thread which goes on and on about it , I mean, where this subject is hotly debated!

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/40508-smoking-ban.html


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## Alcalaina

Article in El Pais on Monday confirms that the PP attempt to retain designated smoking areas in bars and restaurants was overruled, but they are still debating an option to have "smoking cubicles" in casinos and bingo halls. There is another vote in Congress next week.
El Senado elimina los cubículos para fumar de la ley antitabaco · ELPAÍS.com

So it is almost certain that the ban will commence on 2 January, as planned. But two weeks is a long time in politics.


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## xicoalc

I was speaking with a friend who works within the Benidorm ajuntamiente yesterday and she said that at the moment it is all set to come into place... but even she said that these things can change, and even if it somes in, whos to say the Policia will enforce it... i guess we wait and see!


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## jimenato

It's happening - Jan 2nd

Spain smoking ban law approved - Telegraph


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## littleredrooster

jimenato said:


> It's happening - Jan 2nd
> 
> Spain smoking ban law approved - Telegraph


I may reserve my New Year celebration until the second of Jan. in the hope that it works out alright.

So how will you handle it jimenato, if a few locals march in and start puffing away like chimneys as usual, and ignore your polite request to refrain ?
Send for the cops, or turn the other cheek and grin and bear it ?
Tough one when you have a business to run.


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## jimenato

littleredrooster said:


> I may reserve my New Year celebration until the second of Jan. in the hope that it works out alright.
> 
> So how will you handle it jimenato, if a few locals march in and start puffing away like chimneys as usual, and ignore your polite request to refrain ?
> Send for the cops, or turn the other cheek and grin and bear it ?
> Tough one when you have a business to run.


I'll call the cops. And I'll be checking out all the other bars to make sure they're complying.


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> It's happening - Jan 2nd
> 
> Spain smoking ban law approved - Telegraph


So does your glazed terrace count as "outdoors"?


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## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> So does your glazed terrace count as "outdoors"?


I've seen an article that says that smoking will be allowed in a covered area if it has two walls or fewer. Our glazed terrace with the roof retracted is not a covered area. Should be OK when the weather's good, however I'll have to be sure.


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> I've seen an article that says that smoking will be allowed in a covered area if it has two walls or fewer. Our glazed terrace with the roof retracted is not a covered area. Should be OK when the weather's good, however I'll have to be sure.


It says in El Pais that a terrace is defined as a place that has at most, two walls and a roof. So you shouldn't need to retract the roof.

_*Terrazas*. Sí se puede fumar. Pero, ¿qué es una terraza? Según la ley, solo se podrá fumar en aquellos lugares que tengan, como mucho, dos paredes y un techo._
El Congreso aprueba la ley antitabaco que prohíbe fumar en los espacios públicos cerrados · ELPAÍS.com


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## Leper

I have no doubt the ban will come into effect on Jan 2nd 2011. Also, I reckon the local Policia will enforce the law. This is what happened in Ireland when the ban came into effect and those who flouted the law paid dearly.


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## jojo

Leper said:


> I have no doubt the ban will come into effect on Jan 2nd 2011. Also, I reckon the local Policia will enforce the law. This is what happened in Ireland when the ban came into effect and those who flouted the law paid dearly.


I just hope those non smokers who are in favour of the ban make sure that they use the bars more to compensate for the smokers who wont bother as much

Jo xxx


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## Donna773

Leper said:


> I have no doubt the ban will come into effect on Jan 2nd 2011. Also, I reckon the local Policia will enforce the law. This is what happened in Ireland when the ban came into effect and those who flouted the law paid dearly.


I stll say I'll believe it when I see it. I've expressed my cynicism in a number of anti-smoking articles and I simply cannot see a nicotine-obsessed nation like the Spanish giving up part of their culture without a fierce fight. It's bad enough that most native adults smoke (well, that's the way it appears to me). Even worse is that so many teenage girls seem to be addicted - and that is frightening. If the new legislation can send the smokers underground, brilliant. Pero no puedo verlo!


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## littleredrooster

Donna773 said:


> If the new legislation can send the smokers underground, brilliant. Pero no puedo verlo!


Great idea,

Send them all underground into caves and seal up the exits, just to stop the smoke coming out of course.


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## Leper

I'd bet my house on the no smoking law being enforced forcefully. The EU has a major say here and the cultural "right" of anybody to smoke will disappear with the smoke.

The cigarette smells in bars will dissipate as time goes on, but there are other smells coming, believe me there are other smells coming that the smoking cloud used to hide.

While I'm in my prophet mode let me predict that cigarettes and other tobacco products will also disappear from view in shops i.e will be placed under the counter. This will take a few years.

The good news is:- While all this is going on the public's mind is being diverted from the state of the Spanish economy which is due to go up in smoke also.


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## gus-lopez

It might be enforced in some areas but in the campo I think it will take some enforcing.


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> I just hope those non smokers who are in favour of the ban make sure that they use the bars more to compensate for the smokers who wont bother as much
> 
> Jo xxx


We´ll do our best ... 

Most of the bars where I live have tables outside, with canvas awnings, so won´t be affected. But in some of the smaller bars with no outdoor areas they have already started going outside to smoke. I am quite optimistic that the Spanish will comply, on the whole, as they did when smoking was banned in shops a few years ago.

It seems to me the biggest fuss is being made by the British expats. I even heard one complaining that the main reason she came here was so she could have a ciggy with her drink!


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## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> We´ll do our best ...
> 
> Most of the bars where I live have tables outside, with canvas awnings, so won´t be affected. But in some of the smaller bars with no outdoor areas they have already started going outside to smoke. I am quite optimistic that the Spanish will comply, on the whole, as they did when smoking was banned in shops a few years ago.
> 
> It seems to me the biggest fuss is being made by the British expats. I even heard one complaining that the main reason she came here was so she could have a ciggy with her drink!


No around here it's the spaniards complaining. Next door flogged it too death at cena de Nochebuena. It comes up every day in conversation, along with 2011 is going to be worse than last year & when they think the N. Koreans will attack the south.
Most of my friends & neighbours smoke & use the bars frequently so it's a topic that is regularly discussed.
Who wants to be outside at -3ºc at 6,30 in the morning ? Which it was today. Who wants to run a bar , with all the expense , if all the customers are standing outside?


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## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> Who wants to be outside at -3ºc at 6,30 in the morning ?


Who wants _to smoke_ at 6.30 in the morning ?  Ugh!!! Even when I did smoke, I could never fancy one till after lunch. These poor addicts are the ones most likely to benefit from the law, hopefully.


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## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> Who wants _to smoke_ at 6.30 in the morning ?  Ugh!!! Even when I did smoke, I could never fancy one till after lunch. These poor addicts are the ones most likely to benefit from the law, hopefully.


Or get hypothermia !


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## jimenato

Most of my Spanish customers already ask me if they are allowed to smoke. If I get a smoker in on 2nd Jan who will not comply, I'll call the police. My friend Angel who owns the bar just around the corner says the same.

The ban will work in the sense that no-one will smoke in bars any more - it will however cause bars to close. 

Another bar owner near me who only has a narrow pavement is very worried.


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## owdoggy

Out here in the campo our local bar is the rehashed front room of a farmers house. Pedro, the owner, has already told the Policia Local & Guardia that no one is going to stop him smoking in his own house. Their reply to this was that it wasn't a problem as long as he hides the ashtrays.

He has already said that Mrs Doggy & myself can continue to smoke in there but we won't because he could get a stroppy bobby & we don't want to drop him in the smelly stuff.

If we have to go outside for a ciggy then it's a lot nicer in this country than the UK...... it is what it is & not worth getting yer undies in a twist eh?



Doggy


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## gus-lopez

Well apparently having chatted with a policia local this morning it doesn't matter if there's a 100 full ashtrays or a floor littered with butts , you have actually got to be seen to be smoking in the bar !! & this is the instructions that they have been given. :lol:


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## Alcalaina

What is the fine, anyone know? I understand both the bar owner and the smoker will get on-the-spot fines.


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## gus-lopez

I believe it's still 30-1500 €'s + prison in some cases;Where you will be able to smoke legally, whilst improving your spanish ! :laugh: Cheaper than paying for lessons.:rofl:


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## MaidenScotland

I arrived at an Italian Restaurant in Elx to see the staff all outside smoking and yet customers were allowed to smoke inside much to my annoyance lol.
I was in a local bar yesterday and the fug was horrendous straight home and in the shower, clothes into the washing machine.


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## Pesky Wesky

To any non smokers out there, please hit the bars big time after January the second if you want this ban to win the support it deserves!!!
And smokers too for that matter.


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## Donna773

Pesky Wesky said:


> To any non smokers out there, please hit the bars big time after January the second if you want this ban to win the support it deserves!!!
> And smokers too for that matter.


Better not hit the bars too hard, Pesky or they'll all have to close down for repairs! But I'll be celebrating at my local haunts as soon as I get back to Spain in mid-January, that's for sure. Big thaw here in Manchester today, by the way.


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## Cat Mad

Hi all,
This subject has been the talk in the UK for 3 years now!! (ever since the ban came in here).
As an ex-landlady and a smoker, I will be VERY surprised if the Spanish locals put up with being told what they can, or cant do, in their bars.
The non-smokers DO NOT go out more in the UK!! even though it was them that wanted the ban!! Even now, there are approx 26 pubs/bars closing EVERY week!!
The bar owners are the ones that are going to suffer financially. 
As I said, I am an ex-landlady and I had my own bar for XXX years. It was a small bar that did not serve food, all of the bar staff smoked and 90% of my customers smoked. We had recently installed very expensive extractor fans and there was never a build up of smoke in the bar. WHY didnt the government give bar keepers the choice...........food OR smoking?????
IMO that would have worked much better and would have helped the smaller bars that relyed on their regulars who smoked. 
I REALLY hope Spain does not enforce the ban as it will surely affect their economy the same as it has in the UK!!!!!!
Rant over =D


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## Alcalaina

Just a reminder, the bans introduced in the UK and Spain and everywhere else are NOT BECAUSE NON-SMOKERS WANT THEM. They are primarily to prevent employers being sued by staff who contract cancer via secondary smoke in their place of work.


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## Cat Mad

Alcalaina said:


> Just a reminder, the bans introduced in the UK and Spain and everywhere else are NOT BECAUSE NON-SMOKERS WANT THEM. They are primarily to prevent employers being sued by staff who contract cancer via secondary smoke in their place of work.


I do agree with no smoking in public places such as shops, offices and definately hospitals but they should leave the entertainment and leisure industry alone.
It does amuse me that it is the ex-smokers not the non-smokers that seem to have the loudest opinions


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## Pesky Wesky

Cat Mad said:


> I do agree with no smoking in public places such as shops, offices and definately hospitals but they should leave the entertainment and leisure industry alone.
> It does amuse me that it is the ex-smokers not the non-smokers that seem to have the loudest opinions


Uhhmmm......ex smokers are non smokers.

I think the smoking ban in the UK is entirely different to Spain due to climate differences, differences in price (which I think is the real reason why people go out less in the UK), differences in the timing of when the ban has been brought in etc, etc

¡Viva la prohibición!
¡¡¡Y vivan mis pulmones!!!!
¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡Y los de mis hijos!!!!!!!!!!!!

:clap2:


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## thrax

I think I posted elsewhere that the statistics in Spain are that about 160 Spaniards die every day due to smoking related deseases and that 4 of those are from secondary smoking. I have never smoked but I do understand the difficulties that those who do experience when it is banned. However, I am totally in favour of this ban. In the UK, apart from what the Daily Mail will have you believe, the ban has had an enormously positive effect. Pubs are closing, and have been for many years, not because of the ban but because of the economic pressures and their failure to keep up with an ever changing market. I don't see too many weatherspoons pubs closing, in fact they are opening more every week, and they hardly attract an upmarket clientelle (sorry if your fave pub is a Weatherspoons - to be honest when I lived in the UK one of my faves was a W pub - but then I have never been described as upmarket). This smoking ban has occurred all over the world and the overall opinion is that it has had a very beneficial effect. I am totally in favour of it. Having said all that, I don't think it will work in Spain where 90% of the population smoke which includes the police who probably won't enforce it. We shall see.....


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## MaidenScotland

Cat Mad said:


> Hi all,
> This subject has been the talk in the UK for 3 years now!! (ever since the ban came in here).
> As an ex-landlady and a smoker, I will be VERY surprised if the Spanish locals put up with being told what they can, or cant do, in their bars.
> The non-smokers DO NOT go out more in the UK!! even though it was them that wanted the ban!! Even now, there are approx 26 pubs/bars closing EVERY week!!
> The bar owners are the ones that are going to suffer financially.
> As I said, I am an ex-landlady and I had my own bar for XXX years. It was a small bar that did not serve food, all of the bar staff smoked and 90% of my customers smoked. We had recently installed very expensive extractor fans and there was never a build up of smoke in the bar. WHY didnt the government give bar keepers the choice...........food OR smoking?????
> IMO that would have worked much better and would have helped the smaller bars that relyed on their regulars who smoked.
> I REALLY hope Spain does not enforce the ban as it will surely affect their economy the same as it has in the UK!!!!!!
> Rant over =D




I too have had bars and as I have never smoked I can tell you regardless of how expensive your extractor fan system is there is a build up of smoke.. smokers just dont notice it.


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## jimenato

Cat Mad said:


> I do agree with no smoking in public places such as shops, offices and definately hospitals but they should leave the entertainment and leisure industry alone.
> It does amuse me that it is the ex-smokers not the non-smokers that seem to have the loudest opinions


If you agree that smoking should be banned in shops, offices, hospitals etc - that is probably because you accept that smoking causes harm to those around the smoker. (correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption). 

Therefore why should it be acceptable for a smoker to harm those around them in a bar? Or for that matter a cinema, theatre, bus or train?


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> I think I posted elsewhere that the statistics in Spain are that about 160 Spaniards die every day due to smoking related deseases and that 4 of those are from secondary smoking. I have never smoked but I do understand the difficulties that those who do experience when it is banned. However, I am totally in favour of this ban. In the UK, apart from what the Daily Mail will have you believe, the ban has had an enormously positive effect. Pubs are closing, and have been for many years, not because of the ban but because of the economic pressures and their failure to keep up with an ever changing market. I don't see too many weatherspoons pubs closing, in fact they are opening more every week, and they hardly attract an upmarket clientelle (sorry if your fave pub is a Weatherspoons - to be honest when I lived in the UK one of my faves was a W pub - but then I have never been described as upmarket). This smoking ban has occurred all over the world and the overall opinion is that it has had a very beneficial effect. I am totally in favour of it. Having said all that, I don't think it will work in Spain where 90% of the population smoke which includes the police who probably won't enforce it. We shall see.....


Wetherspoons were the first chain to ban smoking, as I remember, even before the law came in. I think they are great, I always eat there if I visit the UK.

Sorry to be pedantic but only 35% of Spaniards smoke ... not 90%!


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Wetherspoons were the first chain to ban smoking, as I remember, even before the law came in. I think they are great, I always eat there if I visit the UK.
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic but only 35% of Spaniards smoke ... not 90%!


Apparently, Spain and France have (or had when the study was done) the highest percentage of smokers in Europe and coincidentally, the lowest incidence of heart disease. The latter study brought about the interest in the "mediteranean diet" that became popular a few years ago!

Jo xxx


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## Donna773

Cat Mad said:


> Hi all,
> This subject has been the talk in the UK for 3 years now!! (ever since the ban came in here).
> As an ex-landlady and a smoker, I will be VERY surprised if the Spanish locals put up with being told what they can, or cant do, in their bars.
> The non-smokers DO NOT go out more in the UK!! even though it was them that wanted the ban!! Even now, there are approx 26 pubs/bars closing EVERY week!!
> The bar owners are the ones that are going to suffer financially.
> As I said, I am an ex-landlady and I had my own bar for XXX years. It was a small bar that did not serve food, all of the bar staff smoked and 90% of my customers smoked. We had recently installed very expensive extractor fans and there was never a build up of smoke in the bar. WHY didnt the government give bar keepers the choice...........food OR smoking?????
> IMO that would have worked much better and would have helped the smaller bars that relyed on their regulars who smoked.
> I REALLY hope Spain does not enforce the ban as it will surely affect their economy the same as it has in the UK!!!!!!
> Rant over =D


I have a degree of sympathy with Cat Mad - but only in that it is unfair to stop smokers polluting each other in private if they wish to do so. Smokers-only pubs would be OK by me - they would at least keep the addicts from milling around the entrances and passers-by having to inhale their fumes. With respect, most smokers have a reduced sense of smell and few seem aware that their clothes and hair reek of the stuff. It is only when you pack it in that you realise just how obnoxious the habit is. Then there is the health aspect. I used to smoke up to 30 a day and am 100 per cent sure I'd have died at least 10 years ago had I not stopped. Major rant developing... enough of the sanctimonious grumping for now.


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## Donna773

jojo said:


> Apparently, Spain and France have (or had when the study was done) the highest percentage of smokers in Europe and coincidentally, the lowest incidence of heart disease. The latter study brought about the interest in the "mediteranean diet" that became popular a few years ago!
> 
> Jo xxx


Lowest incidence of heart disease, maybe. What about lung cancer and other respiratory diseases?


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## MaidenScotland

There is also a danger of fire from careless smokers.

Kings Cross station


The escalator on which the fire started had been built just before World War II. The steps and sides of the escalator were partly made of wood, which meant that they burned quickly and easily. Although smoking was banned on the subsurface sections of the London Underground in February 1985 (a consequence of the Oxford Circus fire), the fire was most probably caused by a commuter discarding a burning match, which fell down the side of the escalator onto the running track (Fennell 1988, p. 111). The running track had not been cleaned in some time and was covered in grease and fibrous detritus.


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## Alcalaina

Donna773 said:


> Lowest incidence of heart disease, maybe. What about lung cancer and other respiratory diseases?


Look it up Donna, and let us know!


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## jojo

Donna773 said:


> Lowest incidence of heart disease, maybe. What about lung cancer and other respiratory diseases?


Dunno, it wasnt an anti smoking study. I cant remember who sponsored it. I think the study was called "the 22 nation study" or something link that and was looking at the diet differences between nations. The correlation with smoking wasnt mentioned LOL

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

MaidenScotland said:


> There is also a danger of fire from careless smokers.
> 
> Kings Cross station
> 
> 
> The escalator on which the fire started had been built just before World War II. The steps and sides of the escalator were partly made of wood, which meant that they burned quickly and easily. Although smoking was banned on the subsurface sections of the London Underground in February 1985 (a consequence of the Oxford Circus fire), the fire was most probably caused by a commuter discarding a burning match, which fell down the side of the escalator onto the running track (Fennell 1988, p. 111). The running track had not been cleaned in some time and was covered in grease and fibrous detritus.


Yes, there is that possibility but in all honesty you are more likely to be attacked by a drunk with a broken bottle / glass every night you are in a pub , than to burn to death from a discarded ***. 
Anyway most of the above is bad cleaning, bad maintenance, lack of investment & local council not issuing closure notice on antique wooden escalators.


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## gus-lopez

Donna773 said:


> Lowest incidence of heart disease, maybe. What about lung cancer and other respiratory diseases?


As a % of the total yearly figure, deaths from cancer is approx. 32% in total.
Of that figure 32% are lung cancers, 26,4% tumours, 11,4% respiratory. The 1st & 3rd are falling , whilst deaths from tumours are increasing .

Just a useless fact I came across whilst trawling; In 2009 there was 1857 deaths in road traffic accidents yet 3421 people committed suicide ! Perhaps all the money should be used in other directions ?


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## xabiaxica

well I for one am looking forward to working in a smoke-free bar from next week!!!


my kids beg me to strip off & shower when I get home sometimes


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## jojo

xabiachica said:


> well I for one am looking forward to working in a smoke-free bar from next week!!!
> 
> 
> my kids beg me to strip off & shower when I get home sometimes


 Are you spending too much time in bars perhaps??

Jo xxxx


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Are you spending too much time in bars perhaps??
> 
> Jo xxxx


just the one!!!


I'm on hols til the 3rd though, so hopefully my last smoky lesson is passed


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## thrax

Alcalaina said:


> Wetherspoons were the first chain to ban smoking, as I remember, even before the law came in. I think they are great, I always eat there if I visit the UK.
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic but only 35% of Spaniards smoke ... not 90%!


Well I stand (actually sitting atm) corrected but I got the figure about a week ago from a Spanish TV programme discussing the ban. Where we live everybody smokes it seems. Except me and the wife - we never smoked. I tried it once when I was 9 years old and stuffed a plastic bubble pipe with tobacco and tried to smoke it and the burning plastic. I think I missed school for three weeks with lung damage.... Never tried it again


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> Well I stand (actually sitting atm) corrected but I got the figure about a week ago from a Spanish TV programme discussing the ban. Where we live everybody smokes it seems. Except me and the wife - we never smoked. I tried it once when I was 9 years old and stuffed a plastic bubble pipe with tobacco and tried to smoke it and the burning plastic. I think I missed school for three weeks with lung damage.... Never tried it again


Maybe they just surveyed people in some bar ?!

I remember reading in El Pais recently that the number had actually gone up from 32 to 34% after last smoking ban, mainly due to increased take-up by young women. But you´re right, it does seem like everybody has a ciggy in one hand and a mobile in the other.


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## Donna773

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe they just surveyed people in some bar ?!
> 
> I remember reading in El Pais recently that the number had actually gone up from 32 to 34% after last smoking ban, mainly due to increased take-up by young women. But you´re right, it does seem like everybody has a ciggy in one hand and a mobile in the other.


My take on young people smoking is that it is fuelled by their role models. The reason many more young girls seem to smoke these days than boys is that their role models are exact opposites. The boys follow footballers and other top sportsmen, very few of whom smoke, whilst the girls are under the spell of the super models, virtually all of whom choke themselves with tobacco and other drugs. Fair comment, Naomi?


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## Donna773

One hour to go until the ban kicks in and I'm about to smoke some salmon (is that to be banned as well, I wonder?). Anyway, I'm in the UK until mid-January but would love to know how _mi pais adoptivo_ takes to the new law in the meantime. Whether I come home to a breath of fresh air or a new outbreak of grumps is anyone's guess. But I'm very interested to hear other Forum members' experiences.


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## jojo

Donna773 said:


> One hour to go until the ban kicks in and I'm about to smoke some salmon (is that to be banned as well, I wonder?). Anyway, I'm in the UK until mid-January but would love to know how _mi pais adoptivo_ takes to the new law in the meantime. Whether I come home to a breath of fresh air or a new outbreak of grumps is anyone's guess. But I'm very interested to hear other Forum members' experiences.


I'm flying back to Spain in the morning, altho I dont tend to go to bars very much I'll be interested to see what happens and will report back!!!

jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

Donna773 said:


> One hour to go until the ban kicks in and I'm about to smoke some salmon (is that to be banned as well, I wonder?). Anyway, I'm in the UK until mid-January but would love to know how _mi pais adoptivo_ takes to the new law in the meantime. Whether I come home to a breath of fresh air or a new outbreak of grumps is anyone's guess. But I'm very interested to hear other Forum members' experiences.


my usual bar is closed on Sundays, so I won't know what is happening there til Monday - it will be interesting cos the barmaid on Monday mornings smokes like the proverbial chimney

if we venture out tomorrow (which we might well, since the weather looks to be gorgeous), I will report in


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## jimenato

xabiachica said:


> my usual bar is closed on Sundays, so I won't know what is happening there til Monday - it will be interesting cos the barmaid on Monday mornings smokes like the proverbial chimney
> 
> if we venture out tomorrow (which we might well, since the weather looks to be gorgeous), I will report in


When I left our favourite bar at 11.30 last night Angel was just collecting up all the ashtrays.


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## morlandg

My wife and I have been down Torremolinos for the last couple of days visiting our son. Driving back this morning we popped into a bar/cafe in Velez Malaga. Signs everywhere - Prohibido Fumar.
Young guy came in and lit up - the staff told him to go outside.!


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## xabiaxica

morlandg said:


> My wife and I have been down Torremolinos for the last couple of days visiting our son. Driving back this morning we popped into a bar/cafe in Velez Malaga. Signs everywhere - Prohibido Fumar.
> Young guy came in and lit up - the staff told him to go outside.!





not an ashtray in sight in our local Parador

lots of smokers enjoying the sun outside, though

I guess the real test will come when it rains...............


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## jojo

I just had to go past our local bar and only two men sitting in there, one WAS smoking, as was the barman/owner with him!???? But could be cos it was quiet in there. I didnt look to see if there were ashtrays on the tables

Jo xxx


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## Donna773

jojo said:


> I just had to go past our local bar and only two men sitting in there, one WAS smoking, as was the barman/owner with him!???? But could be cos it was quiet in there. I didnt look to see if there were ashtrays on the tables
> 
> Jo xxx


That's what I feared, Jo. Smokers (and that includes the majority of Spanish bar owners and staff) ignoring the law if and when they think they can get away with it. Send them out onto the balcony, I say...


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## jojo

Donna773 said:


> That's what I feared, Jo. Smokers (and that includes the majority of Spanish bar owners and staff) ignoring the law if and when they think they can get away with it. Send them out onto the balcony, I say... YouTube - COMODEJEDEFUMAR.mpeg


Personally I'm a live and let live person and quite frankly I dont approve of some chap sitting in Brussels telling a bar owner in the middle of the spanish campo what he can and cant do in his own bar - Freedom of choice and IMO there should be smoking or non smoking bars to appease everyone! Dedicated restaurants should be smoke free where people eat, but if there is the space then they too should have a smoking room. 

In this day of good air con units, there is no excuse for smoky rooms anyway!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> Personally I'm a live and let live person and quite frankly I dont approve of some chap sitting in Brussels telling a bar owner in the middle of the spanish campo what he can and cant do in his own bar - Freedom of choice and IMO there should be smoking or non smoking bars to appease everyone! Dedicated restaurants should be smoke free where people eat, but if there is the space then they too should have a smoking room.
> 
> In this day of good air con units, there is no excuse for smoky rooms anyway!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx




Only people who smoke believe that air con and extractors take away the smoke, if you are a non smoker you can still smell and taste the smoke,


----------



## xabiaxica

MaidenScotland said:


> Only people who smoke believe that air con and extractors take away the smoke, if you are a non smoker you can still smell and taste the smoke,


absolutely

nothing gets rid of the smell on your clothes if someone is smoking in the room


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## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> Only people who smoke believe that air con and extractors take away the smoke, if you are a non smoker you can still smell and taste the smoke,



Well you could be right, I'm a smoker, but I've been told that there are amazing air con units now that can take everything out of the air. HOWEVER, I dont go to bars lol - well certainly not inside of them! 
My husband (non smoker) plays in a pub band in the UK and when the ban was introduced over there he initially like the fact that it wasnt smoky anymore, but now he says that the smell in the bars is horrendous, beer, BO and flatulence - which makes him feel sick, He also says that the atmosphere has gone and in a couple of the pubs they play in they've had to turn the stage round to face the door to the smoking area, so that the punters can still enjoy dancing and watching the band!! He disapproves of the ban now, he says its a waste of time, a waste of space and a waste of money cos it hasnt achieved anything! 

Jo xxxx


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## gus-lopez

I don't have a problem complying with the law but object to hypocrites telling me they'll report me if they catch me smoking in the bar. This was said to me recently by a brit. ( who I know ) in a bar so that everyone could hear . I 'd been waiting years for the opportunity , so I then pointed out that I had no problem with him reporting me as long as he didn't take offence when I reported him for no-payment of tax. having two houses in spain without a fiscal rep ; renting the 2nd house for cash, having a house in the uk rented out , running a 'casa rural' with no licences, renting apartments attached to the main house , + bed& breakfast, in addition to taking work off of the locals by running a fabricating business on the black. People in glass houses . :rofl: I left him trying to appease the locals.


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## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> Well you could be right, I'm a smoker, but I've been told that there are amazing air con units now that can take everything out of the air. HOWEVER, I dont go to bars lol - well certainly not inside of them!
> My husband (non smoker) plays in a pub band in the UK and when the ban was introduced over there he initially like the fact that it wasnt smoky anymore, but now he says that the smell in the bars is horrendous, beer, BO and flatulence - which makes him feel sick, He also says that the atmosphere has gone and in a couple of the pubs they play in they've had to turn the stage round to face the door to the smoking area, so that the punters can still enjoy dancing and watching the band!! He disapproves of the ban now, he says its a waste of time, a waste of space and a waste of money cos it hasnt achieved anything!
> 
> Jo xxxx



I have had many a good dress burned by people dancing whilst smoking.. 
Of course it has achieved something... I dont smell like an ashtray 

If smokers hadnt been so selfish in the first place and considered others than the bans would not have had to be put in place,


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Personally I'm a live and let live person and quite frankly I dont approve of some chap sitting in Brussels telling a bar owner in the middle of the spanish campo what he can and cant do in his own bar - Freedom of choice and IMO there should be smoking or non smoking bars to appease everyone! Dedicated restaurants should be smoke free where people eat, but if there is the space then they too should have a smoking room.
> 
> In this day of good air con units, there is no excuse for smoky rooms anyway!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't have strong views one way or another about this in general but I do think that there should be no smoking in places where food is served.
This law wasn't made by 'some chap in Brussels', though. It was passed by the European Parliament which is a body elected by people all over Europe including Spaniards.
Presumably it was also passed in the Cortes.
The UK law certainly was approved by Parliament.
I can't see why bars can't advertise themselves as 'smoke-free' or 'smoking' establishments so punters can choose where to drink and socialise.
Mind you, I was thrilled when smoking on aircraft was banned as I've lost count of the times I've been 'kippered' on long-haul flights because smoker OH insisted on sitting in the smoking section of the aircraft cabin...
I used to smoke but now only smoke when I've had a 'few' drinks...I think I cadged one of yours when you and OH came round, Jo.....
I do remember that we were four people, two non-drinkers, yet I took three empty bottles of blanco to the basuras next morning....


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## Donna773

MaidenScotland said:


> I have had many a good dress burned by people dancing whilst smoking..
> Of course it has achieved something... I dont smell like an ashtray
> 
> If smokers hadnt been so selfish in the first place and considered others than the bans would not have had to be put in place,


MaidenScotland, I see you are in Egypt. What are the smoking laws like there?


----------



## MaidenScotland

Donna773 said:


> MaidenScotland, I see you are in Egypt. What are the smoking laws like there?




Diabolical... there is a no smoking ban in places but it is ignored, if you ask for a non smoking table in some privately owned restaurants.. they take away the ashtray.
Chillis etc have non smoking areas but pubs etc not a chance.. hence I dont go.


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## Donna773

mrypg9 said:


> I don't have strong views one way or another about this in general but I do think that there should be no smoking in places where food is served.
> This law wasn't made by 'some chap in Brussels', though. It was passed by the European Parliament which is a body elected by people all over Europe including Spaniards.
> Presumably it was also passed in the Cortes.
> The UK law certainly was approved by Parliament.
> I can't see why bars can't advertise themselves as 'smoke-free' or 'smoking' establishments so punters can choose where to drink and socialise.
> Mind you, I was thrilled when smoking on aircraft was banned as I've lost count of the times I've been 'kippered' on long-haul flights because smoker OH insisted on sitting in the smoking section of the aircraft cabin...
> I used to smoke but now only smoke when I've had a 'few' drinks...I think I cadged one of yours when you and OH came round, Jo.....
> I do remember that we were four people, two non-drinkers, yet I took three empty bottles of blanco to the basuras next morning....


The 'smoking' or 'smoke free' option you mention has been there for several years. Unfortunately most bars (and virtually all the Spanish ones) opted to allow customers to light up, and froze out sensitive non-smokers like myself. There were no non-smoking bars anywhere near where I live, so it was very much a case of putting up with the stink or not going out for a drink. Finding a good restaurant was always a lot easier (to me the terms ''good restaurant'' and ''se permite fumar'' were total contradictions). However, the fact that smokers will now move en masse to outside terraces, where they can indulge in their sad addiction, means it's ''sweat or suck smoke'' time for the sanctimonious. Poor me!


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Personally I'm a live and let live person and quite frankly I dont approve of *some chap sitting in Brussels* telling a bar owner in the middle of the spanish campo what he can and cant do in his own bar - Freedom of choice and IMO there should be smoking or non smoking bars to appease everyone! Dedicated restaurants should be smoke free where people eat, but if there is the space then they too should have a smoking room.
> 
> In this day of good air con units, there is no excuse for smoky rooms anyway!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


The ban in Spain is nothing to do with Brussels Jo, it was in the manifesto of Spain's democratically elected government. I know it is a widespread belief that the EU is to blame for any legislation that people don't like, but it's not always the case!


----------



## mrypg9

Donna773 said:


> The 'smoking' or 'smoke free' option you mention has been there for several years. Unfortunately most bars (and virtually all the Spanish ones) opted to allow customers to light up, and froze out sensitive non-smokers like myself. There were no non-smoking bars anywhere near where I live, so it was very much a case of putting up with the stink or not going out for a drink. Finding a good restaurant was always a lot easier (to me the terms ''good restaurant'' and ''se permite fumar'' were total contradictions). However, the fact that smokers will now move en masse to outside terraces, where they can indulge in their sad addiction, means it's ''sweat or suck smoke'' time for the sanctimonious. Poor me!


I agree. Good restaurants cannot possibly permit smoking anywhere near the dining area.
I like eating out and have dined at a few so-called 'celebrity chef' restaurants in the UK. 
My son and daughter-in-law used to frequent Tony Tobin's restaurant near their home in Reigate - maybe they still do -and I have been there with them.
The practice there was for the maitre d' to discretely ask diners, once their dessert, cheese, whatever had been consumed, if they would prefer to take coffee and liqueurs in the Smoking Room where a selection of cigars was available. Those who didn't want to smoke were directed to another lounge.
I guess that option isn't available anymore which is sad as it seems an ideal way to keep all your customers satisfied.


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## Alcalaina

More on fines: smokers - €30 for a "first offence", from €600 to 100,000 after the third strike. Bar owners etc = €600 to €100,000. You can make a denuncia to the municipal police or health department if you know someone breaking the law.

nofumadores.org - Por el derecho a vivir sin humo de tabaco. En defensa del fumador pasivo


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## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> More on fines: smokers - €30 for a "first offence", from €600 to 100,000 after the third strike. Bar owners etc = €600 to €100,000. You can make a denuncia to the municipal police or health department if you know someone breaking the law.
> 
> nofumadores.org - Por el derecho a vivir sin humo de tabaco. En defensa del fumador pasivo


Unfortunately they need to update their 'tick the box' denuncia. The section for
'Venta de cigarrillos sueltos o en paquetes de menos de 20 unidades', selling loose or in packets of less than 20 ,is out of date as the law has been changed to allow sales of loose cigarettes & many machines now dispense packets of 19 ( ? ) .


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## Brrrian

If someone smokes it´s their choice but whether banned or not why do smokers think they can breathe smoke onto other people? If I sat next to someone in a bar and continually burped and blew it over them, that´s not illegal but I wouldn´t expect it to be tolerated. Why do people tolerate being smoked on?

If I eat a snack in the street I don´t just throw the wrapper on the floor. Why do smokers think they can throw cigarette ends on the floor/beach/road?


----------



## gus-lopez

Brrrian said:


> If someone smokes it´s their choice but whether banned or not why do smokers think they can breathe smoke onto other people? If I sat next to someone in a bar and continually burped and blew it over them, that´s not illegal but I wouldn´t expect it to be tolerated. Why do people tolerate being smoked on?
> So you 've got no problem sitting next to someone who's covered in pig slurry then? Which is a coming occurence in a lot of the bars around here. No one complains he's got to eat & earn a living. Smoking used to cover it up a bit though !
> 
> If I eat a snack in the street I don´t just throw the wrapper on the floor. Why do smokers think they can throw cigarette ends on the floor/beach/road?


I don't either but You obviously don't live in the UK which is a rubbish tip & most people do it , or in Spain where they even just throw anything out of the vehicles windows ! 
Yeras ago in the UK we used to have road-sweepers, when their was hardly anything to sweep up. Now there's rubbish everywhere & we've done away with them & pay them to sit & watch the tv.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> I don't either but You obviously don't live in the UK which is a rubbish tip & most people do it , or in Spain where they even just throw anything out of the vehicles windows !
> Yeras ago in the UK we used to have road-sweepers, when their was hardly anything to sweep up. Now there's rubbish everywhere & we've done away with them & pay them to sit & watch the tv.


In our town (and presumably other towns in Spain) the Ayuntamiento awards 3-month contracts on rotation to unemployed people to clean the streets. This enables them to keep some money coming in, keep their self-respect AND we have nice clean streets. Why can't they do that in the UK?


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## jojo

Brrrian said:


> If someone smokes it´s their choice but whether banned or not why do smokers think they can breathe smoke onto other people? If I sat next to someone in a bar and continually burped and blew it over them, that´s not illegal but I wouldn´t expect it to be tolerated. Why do people tolerate being smoked on?
> 
> If I eat a snack in the street I don´t just throw the wrapper on the floor. Why do smokers think they can throw cigarette ends on the floor/beach/road?


Its quite rare for someone to either blow smoke or burp in someones face. But I do agree with you, eating isnt pleasant in a smokey room. 

As for dropping *** ends in the street, well they are biodegradable, unlike plastic food wrappers. but there arent the ashtrays around you know! Of course that situation is made worse now because people stand outside of bars smoking. That was something I noticed when I was in the UK at christmas, the amount of dog ends on the ground outside doorways and pubs


Jo xxx


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## Guest

jojo said:


> Its quite rare for someone to either blow smoke or burp in someones face. But I do agree with you, eating isnt pleasant in a smokey room.
> 
> As for dropping *** ends in the street, well they are biodegradable, unlike plastic food wrappers. but there arent the ashtrays around you know! Of course that situation is made worse now because people stand outside of bars smoking. That was something I noticed when I was in the UK at christmas, the amount of dog ends on the ground outside doorways and pubs
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


The major bars on the street where I live have put a table outside with an ash tray. People seem to be respecting the law up here, which I'm thankful for. There's a LOT of anger- we were giving the smokers in the family a hard time yesterday at the family dinner and an uncle was saying he'll no longer go to the bar. However, I doubt this because the daily coffee is a good excuse to leave the house. People will stay home more? This week, sure, people are going to be stubborn. Next week too. Week three? People will miss their coffee. Week four... we'll see.


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## jojo

halydia said:


> The major bars on the street where I live have put a table outside with an ash tray. People seem to be respecting the law up here, which I'm thankful for. There's a LOT of anger- we were giving the smokers in the family a hard time yesterday at the family dinner and an uncle was saying he'll no longer go to the bar. However, I doubt this because the daily coffee is a good excuse to leave the house. People will stay home more? This week, sure, people are going to be stubborn. Next week too. Week three? People will miss their coffee. Week four... we'll see.


Its a sad state of affairs if people do stop going to their favourite bars simply cos they cant light up and I do think that it may reduce the length of time people stay and the amount of drinks they buy! But at least in Spain people can sit outside. Its the little old men who trundle to their local bars every morning cos the wives have kicked them out I feel for. Its their lives and they've been doing it for years. It seems totally daft that you can have a bar full of smokers dying for a ciggie, but none of them are allowed to just in case a non smoker comes in for half an hour?!!!

In the UK, 90% of the pubs customers are outside under the patio heaters (non smokers included cos they dont want to be left out) and theres a cold, smoke free empty bar with one or two "billy no mates" looking after the handbags!! I went in one just like this at christmas - most odd!


Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

Yes we'll have to see, It's the bar owners who I feel sorry for. Most of my neighbours who smoke said they won't be bothering going except in the spring / summer , if they're still open !! The neighbour who I work with occasionally told me new years eve that tomorrow would be his last trip to El remolino before work. It doesn't take many people not going for the loss of income to mount up. My wifes told me that there's no point in stopping anymore when I'm driving !!


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## Donna773

jojo said:


> Its a sad state of affairs if people do stop going to their favourite bars simply cos they cant light up and I do think that it may reduce the length of time people stay and the amount of drinks they buy! But at least in Spain people can sit outside. Its the little old men who trundle to their local bars every morning cos the wives have kicked them out I feel for. Its their lives and they've been doing it for years. It seems totally daft that you can have a bar full of smokers dying for a ciggie, but none of them are allowed to just in case a non smoker comes in for half an hour?!!!
> 
> In the UK, 90% of the pubs customers are outside under the patio heaters (non smokers included cos they dont want to be left out) and theres a cold, smoke free empty bar with one or two "billy no mates" looking after the handbags!! I went in one just like this at christmas - most odd!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I think the bottom line is that no-smoking laws are brought in because smoking is a health hazard both to those who indulge and to those around them. I can see no justification whatsoever for allowing it in public places and particularly anywhere near children. That is totally the opposite to the way I thought when I was a smoker - in fact, I used to smoke with my children in the back of the car. How repulsive and thoughtless, yet parents still do it today. Smokers have brought these laws on themselves because so many of them are inconsiderate of others. I mean, how many would ever ask strangers sitting nearby: 'Do you mind if I smoke?' I can only remember being asked once, by a young woman in a restaurant in Manchester. I said I'd prefer it if she didn't - and felt guilty for the rest of the evening because she had been so considerate in asking!


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> Yes we'll have to see, It's the bar owners who I feel sorry for. Most of my neighbours who smoke said they won't be bothering going except in the spring / summer , if they're still open !! The neighbour who I work with occasionally told me new years eve that tomorrow would be his last trip to El remolino before work. It doesn't take many people not going for the loss of income to mount up. My wifes told me that there's no point in stopping anymore when I'm driving !!



I truly don't believe people who say they're not going back to the bars. Spanish society is not in the home, it's in the street. Sure, the first few weeks the stubbornest folks will stay home, sulking and smoking in their respective _salones._ However, I genuinely cannot see even the grumpiest, most stubborn bar patrons avoiding their old haunts for life. Isn't half the fun of the morning coffee just getting out of the house?


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> Its a sad state of affairs if people do stop going to their favourite bars simply cos they cant light up and I do think that it may reduce the length of time people stay and the amount of drinks they buy! But at least in Spain people can sit outside. Its the little old men who trundle to their local bars every morning cos the wives have kicked them out I feel for. Its their lives and they've been doing it for years. It seems totally daft that you can have a bar full of smokers dying for a ciggie, but none of them are allowed to just in case a non smoker comes in for half an hour?!!!
> 
> In the UK, 90% of the pubs customers are outside under the patio heaters (non smokers included cos they dont want to be left out) and theres a cold, smoke free empty bar with one or two "billy no mates" looking after the handbags!! I went in one just like this at christmas - most odd!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


In some parts of Spain people can sit outside. The northern coast is pretty rainy, and the middle of the country gets quite cold. However, people will adjust. 

And no, none of them are allowed to have a "ciggie" regardless if one of us dirty non-smokers is there or not. With all due respect for smokers, I'm relieved. First, I'm starting to strongly suspect I'm allergic. I haven't been well since living where I do, and I'm wondering if it's because I live with a smoker. Second, no early am showers after returning from a night on the town. Sure, it sucks for the smokers to have to step outside the bar to smoke - been there done that during my "wild" days in uni. However, I always took it as my moment of zen... enjoying the night and taking a break from the music.


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## gus-lopez

halydia said:


> I truly don't believe people who say they're not going back to the bars. Spanish society is not in the home, it's in the street. Sure, the first few weeks the stubbornest folks will stay home, sulking and smoking in their respective _salones._ However, I genuinely cannot see even the grumpiest, most stubborn bar patrons avoiding their old haunts for life. Isn't half the fun of the morning coffee just getting out of the house?


Well for me there's not a lot of point .I only go to read the paper,coffee & a cigarette.
It's ok if the weather is alright. We , fortunately, still have a bar/restaurant where the sunday market is that still allows smoking as it has no walls. The only 'wall' is the bar with the whole 20 x 10m front covered by a roof. In the centre of Lorca the renowned Merendero Padillas is an open air restaurant, open from easter 'till the last week of september & is packed solid at weekends. All right if you like dining with 1000 + others !!


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> Well for me there's not a lot of point .I only go to read the paper,coffee & a cigarette.


You can still read the paper and have your coffee. You've just got to smoke on your walk there or back.


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## Donna773

gus-lopez said:


> Well for me there's not a lot of point .I only go to read the paper,coffee & a cigarette.
> It's ok if the weather is alright. We , fortunately, still have a bar/restaurant where the sunday market is that still allows smoking as it has no walls. The only 'wall' is the bar with the whole 20 x 10m front covered by a roof. In the centre of Lorca the renowned Merendero Padillas is an open air restaurant, open from easter 'till the last week of september & is packed solid at weekends. All right if you like dining with 1000 + others !!


Gus, why not make a New Year resolution just to sit and read the paper with a nice cup of coffee. That's two out of three - and much healthier and more pleasant for those around you. Not to mention the damage your ciggy is doing to your lungs.


----------



## jojo

Donna773 said:


> Gus, why not make a New Year resolution just to sit and read the paper with a nice cup of coffee. That's two out of three - and much healthier and more pleasant for those around you. Not to mention the damage your ciggy is doing to your lungs.



Hey Gus, you'd actually save money as well if you simply go in the bar and dont bother with the coffee or paper, just sit there and relax!
Jo xxx


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> Hey Gus, you'd actually save money as well if you simply go in the bar and dont bother with the coffee or paper, just sit there and relax!
> Jo xxx


I guess I simply don't understand why it's imperative that one must smoke in the bar - not on the walk to or from the door.


----------



## jojo

halydia said:


> I guess I simply don't understand why it's imperative that one must smoke in the bar - not on the walk to or from the door.


Thats cos you're not a smoker I guess! TBH, its not something that bothers me either. If I want a ciggie then I go outside and have one, wherever I am - in fact, I think I'll do that when I've finished typing this - simply cos I can LOL. But I do understand the pleasure of relaxing and sitting down and being able to enjoy something that you've always enjoyed! When my husband gave up smoking, he also gave up drinking alcohol cos he couldnt enjoy one without the other. So he took up chewing gum! Its all about our little creature comforts!

Jo xxx


----------



## Donna773

halydia said:


> I guess I simply don't understand why it's imperative that one must smoke in the bar - not on the walk to or from the door.


Now we are back to basics. Why do people smoke at all? More often than not it's because as silly little children they think that smoking is an adult thing. What is needed is a proper campaign to persuade kids of 10 or 12 not to start smoking - and that means convincing them it is a childish thing to do. My idea would be to start producing babies' dummies with an imitation cigarette on the end, so it would look as if babies were smoking in their pram or buggy. Advertise that nationally with a slogan like 'You've got to be a Dummy to Smoke' and it might just work! _(Note to self: Must write an article about that)_


----------



## jojo

Donna773 said:


> Now we are back to basics. Why do people smoke at all? More often than not it's because as silly little children they think that smoking is an adult thing. What is needed is a proper campaign to persuade kids of 10 or 12 not to start smoking - and that means convincing them it is a childish thing to do. My idea would be to start producing babies' dummies with an imitation cigarette on the end, so it would look as if babies were smoking in their pram or buggy. Advertise that nationally with a slogan like 'You've got to be a Dummy to Smoke' and it might just work! _(Note to self: Must write an article about that)_


I've often wondered why people start smoking. The reason I started wasnt because it was "grown up", TBH, I think that notion went out a long time ago. I started I trhink, because my ex husband smoked, I tried it a few times and before I knew it I was hooked, oh and someone told me that it helps to lose weight (which it did!). Its something to do with the sucking reflex and of course humans can be an addictive species - and nicotine is addictive. Its also a relaxant?? 

jo xxx


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> Thats cos you're not a smoker I guess!


Yeah but Jo, been there done that. I started uni in Canada a month before they banned smoking in my province. We survived. And let me tell you - it's colder than all get out in Canada in the winter.


----------



## Alcalaina

halydia said:


> The major bars on the street where I live have put a table outside with an ash tray. People seem to be respecting the law up here, which I'm thankful for. There's a LOT of anger- we were giving the smokers in the family a hard time yesterday at the family dinner and an uncle was saying he'll no longer go to the bar. However, I doubt this because the daily coffee is a good excuse to leave the house. People will stay home more? This week, sure, people are going to be stubborn. Next week too. Week three? People will miss their coffee. Week four... we'll see.


Maybe that´s why every other TV advert is for a capsule coffee maker thingy? I´m getting sick of the sight of George Clooney.


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## Donna773

jojo said:


> I've often wondered why people start smoking. The reason I started wasnt because it was "grown up", TBH, I think that notion went out a long time ago. I started I trhink, because my ex husband smoked, I tried it a few times and before I knew it I was hooked, oh and someone told me that it helps to lose weight (which it did!). Its something to do with the sucking reflex and of course humans can be an addictive species - and nicotine is addictive. Its also a relaxant??
> 
> jo xxx


Jo, I'm very surprised that an intelligent adult non-smoker consciously decided that it was in some way beneficial to take up the habit. I cannot think of one thing to be said in its favour, though at the time I started smoking, the health warnings were very flimsy. 

I can't believe there are many people around who actually ENJOYED their very first cigarette. I was 14, was persuaded by a schoolfriend to try it, and promptly coughed my lungs out. So why did I carry on? Because I wanted to feel I was grown up. I also went through the 'it helps me relax' thing; in fact, at one point I used to sit at the typewriter (yes, it was a long time ago) and believe I was incapable of any creativity without a cigarette dangling from my mouth. It was a complete smokescreen - I was just deluding myself.


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## gus-lopez

I thank all you ladies concerned for my health . I have in fact packed up many times, 5 years, 8 years, two or three times for 3 years & various other lengths of time. I get bored , I don't do anything else & in the UK I worked 7 days a week & used to think what's it all about & start again. I started because my sister worked for a tobacco co. who every month with her wages gave her a carton of cigarettes. As she didn't smoke they were piled to the ceiling in her room & I ,being a lot younger used to help myself . 
Haldyia , walk!!!!! sorry here you have to drive, cycle ,etc. I get enough exercise working & around the house not to go walking anywhere. Another thought is that many of my neighbours chain-smoke. I thought I was smoking too much but I'm not in the class of some of them.


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## MaidenScotland

gus-lopez said:


> Well for me there's not a lot of point .I only go to read the paper,coffee & a cigarette.
> It's ok if the weather is alright. We , fortunately, still have a bar/restaurant where the sunday market is that still allows smoking as it has no walls. The only 'wall' is the bar with the whole 20 x 10m front covered by a roof. In the centre of Lorca the renowned Merendero Padillas is an open air restaurant, open from easter 'till the last week of september & is packed solid at weekends. All right if you like dining with 1000 + others !!





All right if you like dining with 1000 + others !![/QUOTE] well you will just have to put up with it as we have had to put up with smokers


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## gus-lopez

MaidenScotland said:


> All right if you like dining with 1000 + others !!


 well you will just have to put up with it as we have had to put up with smokers [/QUOTE]

But at least I'll be able to light up .


----------



## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe that´s why every other TV advert is for a capsule coffee maker thingy? I´m getting sick of the sight of George Clooney.


No.

Reason #1: Vídeo: 'Vaya Semanita': La importancia del marketing

Reason #2: Isn't it Spanish tradition to buy big ticket electronic items at Christmas? Have you noticed that advert 1 is perfume, advert 2 is capsule coffee? It seems as if capsule coffee makers have overtaken GPS-es this year.


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> Haldyia , walk!!!!! sorry here you have to drive, cycle ,etc. I get enough exercise working & around the house not to go walking anywhere. Another thought is that many of my neighbours chain-smoke. I thought I was smoking too much but I'm not in the class of some of them.


While walking, while driving... my point is that you could enjoy the cigarette on the way to the bar.


----------



## Caz.I

TBH I dont think the ban will make much difference round here, since the vast majority of bars have terraces (or some sort of outside facilities) which are 3 or 4 times the size of the inside area, so smokers will still be able to smoke. Also, in most cases, the outside terraces are usually protected with plastic covers and very cosy gas heaters, so no one will freeze. Plus most people sit outside, so it will be business as usual for the most part.

The other thing is, this is not just for the night time trade in bars, it’s for cafes as well and a lot of bars double as cafes during the day too, so at least mothers and children wont be forced to smoke when they want to go for a coffee and a juice.

I also think that the ban is an opportunity for people to stop smoking (or cut down) so it is only fair that more practical help is provided to help smokers stop (if they want to).


----------



## xabiaxica

Caz.I said:


> TBH I dont think the ban will make much difference round here, since the vast majority of bars have terraces (or some sort of outside facilities) which are 3 or 4 times the size of the inside area, so smokers will still be able to smoke. Also, in most cases, the outside terraces are usually protected with plastic covers and very cosy gas heaters, so no one will freeze. Plus most people sit outside, so it will be business as usual for the most part.
> 
> The other thing is, this is not just for the night time trade in bars, it’s for cafes as well and a lot of bars double as cafes during the day too, so at least mothers and children wont be forced to smoke when they want to go for a coffee and a juice.
> 
> I also think that the ban is an opportunity for people to stop smoking (or cut down) so it is only fair that more practical help is provided to help smokers stop (if they want to).


trouble is (around here at least) there is confusion as to whether the plastic covers count as more than '2 walls & a roof' so will legally be 'inside' & therefore a non-smoking area

friends of mine who run a bar have been trying to get a definitive answer from the local authorities - with no luck at all


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe that´s why every other TV advert is for a capsule coffee maker thingy? I´m getting sick of the sight of George Clooney.


Those machines are a fraud. They do not produce decent coffee.
We spent an arm and a leg on a Saeco machine which grinds the beans before producing a great espresso but it's worth every cent.
I have never drunk a cup of tea in my life -the smell makes me feel ill - and I can't drink instant 'coffee' so good coffee is a life support for me.
And those machines do not support life for discerning coffee drinkers!!!


----------



## morlandg

mrypg9 said:


> Those machines are a fraud. They do not produce decent coffee.
> We spent an arm and a leg on a Saeco machine which grinds the beans before producing a great espresso but it's worth every cent.
> I have never drunk a cup of tea in my life -the smell makes me feel ill - and I can't drink instant 'coffee' so good coffee is a life support for me.
> And those machines do not support life for discerning coffee drinkers!!!


:focus::focus:


----------



## xabiaxica

morlandg said:


> :focus::focus:


lol

I have to say I love my senseo machine though - it took a bit of experimentation with different coffees & so on till I found the perfect balance for me



now if I was still a smoker, I'd be lighting up with my coffee


now I can go into a bar and actually_ smell _the coffee


----------



## jimenato

xabiachica said:


> trouble is (around here at least) there is confusion as to whether the plastic covers count as more than '2 walls & a roof' so will legally be 'inside' & therefore a non-smoking area
> 
> friends of mine who run a bar have been trying to get a definitive answer from the local authorities - with no luck at all


Please let me know if they are able to find anything out. (seriously).

At the moment I'm assuming that without a roof is OK (my terrace has two and a half walls and a retractable roof).


----------



## 90199

No one smoking last night inside the bar, domino players outside on the terrace, The landlord has got withdrawal symptoms.

Than goodness I gave up years ago.

Hepa


----------



## gus-lopez

Hepa said:


> No one smoking last night inside the bar, domino players outside on the terrace, The landlord has got withdrawal symptoms.
> 
> Than goodness I gave up years ago.
> 
> Hepa


 Yes, but it's warm were you are at the moment not -2/3º, like around here first thing !
I've just been in to town & some of them you can smell the cigar smoke ouside ! The bar I usually frequent , which normally between 10 -11am you've trouble getting served is empty ! 3 people in total in 1hour ! Even the signs on the door prohibiting smoking have a message on them telling the customers that they don't want it & it's been forced on them & not to abandon going there ! Doesn't look to hopeful though.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Please let me know if they are able to find anything out. (seriously).
> 
> At the moment I'm assuming that without a roof is OK (my terrace has two and a half walls and a retractable roof).


A wall is a wall, of solid construction . End of story. Anything else is a temporary partition. If you want an answer from the council tell them you want to build a house with 'toldo' walls. They'll tell you you can't as they are not classed as permanent structures.


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> Please let me know if they are able to find anything out. (seriously).
> 
> At the moment I'm assuming that without a roof is OK (my terrace has two and a half walls and a retractable roof).


I read on another forum this morning that canvas walls are indeed walls

I have a feeling it might in the end come down to local interpretation


----------



## morlandg

FYI -The connection between bars and smoking? 
Alcohol stimulates the desire to smoke. Although I guess you need to be a smoker in the first place!


----------



## jojo

morlandg said:


> FYI -The connection between bars and smoking?
> Alcohol stimulates the desire to smoke. Although I guess you need to be a smoker in the first place!


So ban alcohol!  You see, I think alcohol is far more detrimental to health, hygiene and social issues! yeah, yeah, I know no one agrees with me. But thats my view and it aint changing lol!! 


I'll get me coat 

Jo xxxx


----------



## gus-lopez

If the legislation says 'wall or walls' then legally it would be taken to mean the definition of 'Wall'. A load bearing structure of brick ,stone or blockwork , self-supporting & capable of supporting superstructure. A timber stud wall is not a wall in the sense of the word as they are not load bearing, but is a fixed partition. 
A 'toldo' 'wall' is in no way a wall but a movable partition incapable of supporting anything.


----------



## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> So ban alcohol!  You see, I think alcohol is far more detrimental to health, hygiene and social issues! yeah, yeah, I know no one agrees with me. But thats my view and it aint changing lol!!
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat
> 
> Jo xxxx


I agree with you Jo ! I've never been attacked by a smokers *** yet !


----------



## 90199

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, but it's warm were you are at the moment not -2/3º, like around here first thing !
> I've just been in to town & some of them you can smell the cigar smoke ouside ! The bar I usually frequent , which normally between 10 -11am you've trouble getting served is empty ! 3 people in total in 1hour ! Even the signs on the door prohibiting smoking have a message on them telling the customers that they don't want it & it's been forced on them & not to abandon going there ! Doesn't look to hopeful though.


I never cease to be amazed by the diverse temperatures you experience on the peninsular.

We went through the same smoking ban in the U.K. things levelled out many decided to quit and the good pubs gradually became busier. The dumps closed.

I remember in the U.S.A in the 1960's one was not allowed to smoke in certain establishments.

Myself I think it is a good thing, but feel sorry for those addicted, it is not at all easy to quit, I know I have more than once travelled that road,

Hepa


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> If the legislation says 'wall or walls' then legally it would be taken to mean the definition of 'Wall'. A load bearing structure of brick ,stone or blockwork , self-supporting & capable of supporting superstructure. A timber stud wall is not a wall in the sense of the word as they are not load bearing, but is a fixed partition.
> A 'toldo' 'wall' is in no way a wall but a movable partition incapable of supporting anything.


Careful, we're defining "wall" in the wrong language. 

According to the RAE: 

pared.
(Del lat. parĭes, -ĕtis).
*1. f. Obra de albañilería vertical, que cierra o limita un espacio.* (Like you said. However...)
*2. f. Placa de cualquier material con que se divide o cierra un espacio.* Una casucha miserable con paredes de paja.
3. f. Superficie lateral de un cuerpo.
4. f. Superficie plana y alta que forman las cebadas y los trigos cuando están bastante crecidos y cerrados.
5. f. Conjunto de cosas o personas que se aprietan o unen estrechamente.

_(wall:
1. [loosely translated] vertical brickwork, which closes or limits a space
2. sheet/slab of ANY material with which you divide or close a space. ) _


----------



## 90199

jojo said:


> So ban alcohol!  You see, I think alcohol is far more detrimental to health, hygiene and social issues! yeah, yeah, I know no one agrees with me. But thats my view and it aint changing lol!!
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat
> 
> Jo xxxx


And your running shoes!!


----------



## Donna773

gus-lopez said:


> I agree with you Jo ! I've never been attacked by a smokers *** yet !


I have. A woman burnt me with her cancer stick as she walked past on Campo de Guardamar market one Sunday - and had the cheek to laugh when I made it clear I wasn't enjoying being set on fire! I have to agree about alcohol, though - it has an aggressive and moronic effect on far too many people. I was going to say Brits because Spanish drunks seem rare by comparison - but that would be racist!).


----------



## 90199

Donna773 said:


> I have. A woman burnt me with her cancer stick as she walked past on Campo de Guardamar market one Sunday - and had the cheek to laugh when I made it clear I wasn't enjoying being set on fire! I have to agree about alcohol, though - it has an aggressive and *moronic* effect on far too many people. I was going to say Brits because Spanish drunks seem rare by comparison - but that would be racist!).


Then lets just ban the *morons*


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> So ban alcohol!  You see, I think alcohol is far more detrimental to health, hygiene and social issues! yeah, yeah, I know no one agrees with me. But thats my view and it aint changing lol!!
> 
> 
> I'll get me coat
> 
> Jo xxxx



Well,,actually, I agree with you.
Alcohol is the major contributing factor in the UK and probably in Spain too to domestic violence, marital breakdown, road traffic accidents, crime, early death or serious illness...and more.
It causes far more distress than drug usage and frankly,the fuss made about marijuana/cannabis is pathetic when compared to the damage done to the young by alcopops and cheap alcohol in general.
Do I drink? Yes, I do. I enjoy good wine. But would my life be made significantly less happy if I never drank alcohol again? No, I don't think so.
So put yer coat back on...


----------



## mrypg9

Donna773;431637 was going to say Brits because Spanish drunks seem rare by comparison - but that would be racist!).[/QUOTE said:


> No it wouldn't. It's true.
> When we lived in Prague we were regularly exposed to the sight of the vilest, crudest superchav British drunks of both genders.
> The same kind of people make parts of the Costas unbearable for decent people.
> So it's in no way racist to say that.
> Maybe you posted that with tongue in cheek??


----------



## jojo

I was horrified in the UK when I looked in my daughters drink supply for christmas and found a bottle of "Irn Bru WKD" Irn bru is a rather nasty childrens fizzy drink and there it is being maufactured with vodka in it!!!!! Who is that aimed at?? My daughters had bought it for my younger two, thinking "well it is christmas" and fair enough to a point as we were having a christmas eve get together - but for heavens sake, what are the manufacturers thinking?????????? I wonder what the reaction would be if Irn Bru gave free **** away with their fizzy pop?????

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> So ban alcohol!  You see, I think alcohol is far more detrimental to health, hygiene and social issues! yeah, yeah, I know no one agrees with me. But thats my view and it aint changing lol!!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


Absolutely true!

But nobody has died from "passive drinking". And that's what the smoking ban is about - protecting workers, children, other customers who don't smoke, from the very real dangers of passive smoking.

If they wanted to stop people smoking they would simply ban the sale of cigarettes.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely true!
> 
> But nobody has died from "passive drinking". And that's what the smoking ban is about - protecting workers, children, other customers who don't smoke, from the very real dangers of passive smoking.
> .



There are many many deaths, injuries and issues from other people drinking, infinitely more than from secondhand cigarette smoke. 

Passive smoking, well we all passively breath in toxic fumes from heaven knows what all day long! 

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> There are many many deaths, injuries and issues from other people drinking, infinitely more than from secondhand cigarette smoke.
> 
> Passive smoking, well we all passively breath in toxic fumes from heaven knows what all day long!
> 
> Jo xxx




The trouble is when smokers can smoke where and when they like the do so regardless of the comfort of others and us non smokers cannot get away from it..
Ok drunks may harm you but if you go to the cinema how many drunks will there be compared to people lighting up. 

I keep saying if smokers had not been so generous about sharing their habit with us then all this legislation would not have needed to be brought in.


----------



## littleredrooster

Hepa said:


> I never cease to be amazed by the diverse temperatures you experience on the peninsular.
> 
> We went through the same smoking ban in the U.K. things levelled out many decided to quit and the good pubs gradually became busier. The dumps closed.
> 
> I remember in the U.S.A in the 1960's one was not allowed to smoke in certain establishments.
> 
> Myself I think it is a good thing, but feel sorry for those addicted, it is not at all easy to quit, I know I have more than once travelled that road,
> 
> Hepa


Quite agree, it's a great opportunity for good pubs to become even better and the tab-end dumps of pubs to end up on the floor with the rest of the ***-ash and rubbish.
However in the longer term it's probably a step forward towards achieving better standards all round.


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> There are many many deaths, injuries and issues from other people drinking, infinitely more than from secondhand cigarette smoke.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, I thought you'd say that - but these alcohol-related misdemeanors are _already_ illegal.


----------



## 90199

I remember years ago, riding a motorcycle and being hit in the face with a lighted *** end tossed from a car window. Had I not had a visor the injury may have been more serious.

I have smoked and I still drink, I can always tell when I have had enough, it sloshes round my tonsils

Seriously though the majority of drinkers are responsible, it is the drunken few that spoil things, and there are Spanish drunks. So there should be no need to ban alcohol.

Hepa


----------



## owdoggy

Smoking, a dangerous activity, has been banned in public places to save direct & indirect deaths related to that activity. 
If you carry that principle on then alcohol, riding motorcycles (& driving cars for that matter) would surely have to go. Playing (or just listening to) loud music, whilst not actually fatal (mostly), can cause damage to hearing so that would have to be regulated at least. 

Well, you’ve taken away my four main food groups so you might as well shoot me now.


This is all very depressing........ I need a beer..... oh ******, that's dangerous so I can't........better make it a coffee then.........er......hang on, caffeine is bad for me as well......... looks like I'll have to console myself with some food......... but that will make me fat & I'll still die early..........sex! that always makes you feel better......ooh, but that might put undue strain on the heart & I could do myself a right nasty if I fell off the top of the wardrobe so that's out...........a glass of water it is then.......mmmm, lovely!



Doggy


----------



## Alcalaina

owdoggy said:


> Smoking, a dangerous activity, has been banned in public places to save direct & indirect deaths related to that activity.
> If you carry that principle on then alcohol, riding motorcycles (& driving cars for that matter) would surely have to go. Playing (or just listening to) loud music, whilst not actually fatal (mostly), can cause damage to hearing so that would have to be regulated at least.
> 
> Well, you’ve taken away my four main food groups so you might as well shoot me now.


Most accidents occur in the home, so perhaps we should all get out more!


----------



## Donna773

mrypg9 said:


> No it wouldn't. It's true.
> When we lived in Prague we were regularly exposed to the sight of the vilest, crudest superchav British drunks of both genders.
> The same kind of people make parts of the Costas unbearable for decent people.
> So it's in no way racist to say that.
> Maybe you posted that with tongue in cheek??


Tongue-in-cheek? Definitely. So how about Britain's Scum Society as the next topic, then - or would the thread be too long for the moderators to handle?!


----------



## Alcalaina

Donna773 said:


> Tongue-in-cheek? Definitely. So how about Britain's Scum Society as the next topic, then - or would the thread be too long for the moderators to handle?!


This bit of the Forum is about life in Spain! If you venture into the Expat Lounge, where general discussions are allowed, you will see that the topic has already been done to death ...  but maybe you can find something new to say!?!


----------



## littleredrooster

The next step forward should be to ban smoking while driving.
To get hold of a *** packet and lighter then proceed to light up and hold a *** while driving, eventually putting it out or discarding it, not always in a safe manner, could be considered a similar distraction to using a mobile.
One guy I know dropped his lit ciggy between his thighs whilst driving and ended up, upside down in a farmers field together with his three passengers.


----------



## Alcalaina

littleredrooster said:


> The next step forward should be to ban smoking while driving.
> To get hold of a *** packet and lighter then proceed to light up and hold a *** while driving, eventually putting it out or discarding it, not always in a safe manner, could be considered a similar distraction to using a mobile.
> One guy I know dropped his lit ciggy between his thighs whilst driving and ended up, upside down in a farmers field together with his three passengers.


Ouch ...

But they have banned mobiles while driving and people still use them all the time. You can't legislate against stupidity!


----------



## gus-lopez

littleredrooster said:


> The next step forward should be to ban smoking while driving.
> To get hold of a *** packet and lighter then proceed to light up and hold a *** while driving, eventually putting it out or discarding it, not always in a safe manner, could be considered a similar distraction to using a mobile.
> One guy I know dropped his lit ciggy between his thighs whilst driving and ended up, upside down in a farmers field together with his three passengers.


You'll be wanting to ban me rolling them whilst driving next. Or drinking my coffee.


----------



## xabiaxica

*it's a wall!!*

my friends who run a bar have been told by their abogado that the retractable canvas/plastic walls do indeed count as walls as far as the legislation is concerned


she said however not to worry about the retractable roof bit


----------



## littleredrooster

gus-lopez said:


> You'll be wanting to ban me rolling them whilst driving next. Or drinking my coffee.


Of course.
They could do the same as with alcohol and make it illegal to have an opened pack of ciggies or baccy within reach of the driver.


----------



## Guest

littleredrooster said:


> The next step forward should be to ban smoking while driving.
> To get hold of a *** packet and lighter then proceed to light up and hold a *** while driving, eventually putting it out or discarding it, not always in a safe manner, could be considered a similar distraction to using a mobile.
> One guy I know dropped his lit ciggy between his thighs whilst driving and ended up, upside down in a farmers field together with his three passengers.


As soon as the Basque government signs the bill, drivers will no longer be able to smoke in a car carrying underaged passengers. 

As for drinking coffee - isn't it already illegal to eat or drink anything while driving?


----------



## jojo

Donna773 said:


> Tongue-in-cheek? Definitely. So how about Britain's Scum Society as the next topic, then - or would the thread be too long for the moderators to handle?!


Off topic for a moment - I was chatting to a well travelled russian lad I met while on the train the other day and he was giving me a "world" opinion on Brits. He says the world see the British (in general of course) as ALL very middle class!!!!!!!! I argued the point, saying that the British are diverse and there are alot of so called scummy types - he said that compared to the "scum" in other countries, they are tame, even the poor and uneducated british can hold conversations, have homes with heating, cars, tvs, indoor toilets etc...! He was very interesting to talk to! (shame he was young enough to be my son lol)

Sorry :focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## dunmovin

BBC News - 'Why you pay for other people's drinking'

does this mean alcohol should be banned as well? (I should add this is another measure that I don't support)


----------



## gus-lopez

halydia said:


> As soon as the Basque government signs the bill, drivers will no longer be able to smoke in a car carrying underaged passengers.
> 
> As for drinking coffee - isn't it already illegal to eat or drink anything while driving?


If you see what they throw out the windows whilst driving , obviously not. 

xabiachica 
it's a wall!!
my friends who run a bar have been told by their abogado that the retractable canvas/plastic walls do indeed count as walls as far as the legislation is concerned


she said however not to worry about the retractable roof bit

I went to the bank earlier & the bar opposite has roll out awnings +sides & was signed as the smoking area. Policia poked his head in to wish someone a happy new year. No problems. Waiter serving in their as well.


----------



## jimenato

xabiachica said:


> my friends who run a bar have been told by their abogado that the retractable canvas/plastic walls do indeed count as walls as far as the legislation is concerned
> 
> 
> she said however not to worry about the retractable roof bit


Presumably the walls only count as walls if they are deployed. Do you mean that if the roof is retracted it's OK to smoke?


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> Presumably the walls only count as walls if they are deployed. Do you mean that if the roof is retracted it's OK to smoke?


yes, they are only walls if they are in place


apparently she said that not to worry about people smoking even if the roof was in place



I'm in the bar - warm & smoke-free- at the moment - there are smokers sitting outside - all the regulars have swapped places & the owner toldme this morning that it was lovely to gohome last night not stinking of smoke


some customers are threatening to stay home, but that won't last long................


----------



## Caz.I

xabiachica said:


> yes, they are only walls if they are in place
> 
> 
> apparently she said that not to worry about people smoking even if the roof was in place
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in the bar - warm & smoke-free- at the moment - there are smokers sitting outside - all the regulars have swapped places & the owner toldme this morning that it was lovely to gohome last night not stinking of smoke
> 
> 
> some customers are threatening to stay home, but that won't last long................


Interestingly, the bar/cafe I was in yesterday only had a few outside with most being inside. I think the wall/covers thing will be interpreted differently in different places with most assigning it as the smoking area.


----------



## Caz.I

...And just read that there have been about 800 or so denuncias since the Law came into force - most of them being in Andalucia...
Facua recoge más de 800 denuncias por incumplir la ley antitabaco · ELPAÍS.com


----------



## Inconformista

I've just been out to the shops in my local area of (fairly central) Barcelona. I passed six bars - there was just one client between the lot of them. Even considering it's a chilly evening in January, I've never seen so many deserted bars in over 2 years here. 
I fear the inflexibility of this ban is going to throw a lot more working people on the dole (just what Spain needs, with 20% unemployment). The bars with terassas will survive, the small bars will go under.


----------



## gus-lopez

According to the law on terraces a roof is not a problem & as long as it has no more than 2 walls.
"Terrazas. Sí se puede fumar. Pero, ¿qué es una terraza? Según la ley, solo se podrá fumar en aquellos lugares que tengan, como mucho, dos paredes y un techo."


----------



## jojo

Right, I've just driven passed our local bar and they've removed the windows along the front and put bar stools outside along that wall, creating a second sort of bar area. So the smokers are sitting outside of the bar, watching the tv inside, chatting to the non smokers who are sitting on the inside and blowing their smoke in through the opened windows. Not sure how long it will last like that, it must be jolly cold!!!

....... Oh and apparently there is a special police squad in our area who are dedicated to "stop smoking in public places". Apparently they went out at 1am on 2nd January to all the "British bars" in the area and "nicked" everyone who was smoking!!!! Theres a bit of an outcry amongst the brit community here lol


Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> According to the law on terraces a roof is not a problem & as long as it has no more than 2 walls.
> "Terrazas. Sí se puede fumar. Pero, ¿qué es una terraza? Según la ley, solo se podrá fumar en aquellos lugares que tengan, como mucho, dos paredes y un techo."


But what if it has three walls and no roof?


----------



## littleredrooster

jimenato said:


> But what if it has three walls and no roof?


No idea, but probably much better for you go to the local cops/enforcers for advice, before they come to you.


----------



## Inconformista

jojo said:


> Right, I've just driven passed our local bar and they've removed the windows along the front and put bar stools outside along that wall, creating a second sort of bar area. So the smokers are sitting outside of the bar, watching the tv inside, chatting to the non smokers who are sitting on the inside and blowing their smoke in through the opened windows. Not sure how long it will last like that, it must be jolly cold!!!
> 
> ....... Oh and apparently there is a special police squad in our area who are dedicated to "stop smoking in public places". Apparently they went out at 1am on 2nd January to all the "British bars" in the area and "nicked" everyone who was smoking!!!! Theres a bit of an outcry amongst the brit community here lol
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi there, 
This would be quite funny if it were not so ridiculous!
From a selfish point of view, this ban won't affect us so much as in the UK, because at least for most of the year it is warm enough to sit outside. But I feel sorry for the owners of small bars without outside seating, and their staff, who are going to see their trade crash in the middle of the worst recession in decades. 

My solution (for the UK as well) would have been:
Restaurants: no smoking at all (unless they had a small, separate area where people could have a coffee and cig after the meal).
Bars that serve proper meals as well as drinks: ditto.
Bars that just serve alcohol, coffee and snacks: leave it to proprietor. Same for private clubs.

I think this is a reasonable solution that would have suited non-smokers and smokers alike. But it seems that the anti-smoking lobby are not really interested in reasonable compromises, it has to be all or nothing - the fanatical approach. 
I was really shocked to hear about the 'denuncias anonimas' - where people are invited to sneak to the authorities on bars that are allowing smoking. Several people have said to me that it reminds them of Franco's Spain. 

Oh, well, I'll keep reporting on the situation in Catalunya.


----------



## bob_bob

Hi everyone, I've lurked on the site for a while and just joined up.

The ban had a big impact on some pubs in the UK. Certainly in south Wales where I am just now we've seen pubs close, pubs that have been in business for many years. As for the non smokers who said 'I'll be down the put more often aften the ban' well, talking a load of tosh really, did'nt happen. Now you walk round town and see groups of people in all weather standing outside puffing away.

As an ex smoker I see both sides of the argument, in the past I'd not use some pubs because of the smoke in them (this was when I was smoking too) but I believe that having the right to choose should have been given. If a landlord and his staff are happy to take the risks of working in that envoirenment then they should have that right to do so. By all means bring in new high standards for forced ventilation but give choice.

Sorry for the long first post.

Happy new year.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Inconformista said:


> Hi there,
> This would be quite funny if it were not so ridiculous!
> From a selfish point of view, this ban won't affect us so much as in the UK, because at least for most of the year it is warm enough to sit outside. But I feel sorry for the owners of small bars without outside seating, and their staff, who are going to see their trade crash in the middle of the worst recession in decades.
> 
> My solution (for the UK as well) would have been:
> Restaurants: no smoking at all (unless they had a small, separate area where people could have a coffee and cig after the meal).
> Bars that serve proper meals as well as drinks: ditto.
> Bars that just serve alcohol, coffee and snacks: leave it to proprietor. Same for private clubs.
> 
> I think this is a reasonable solution that would have suited non-smokers and smokers alike. But it seems that the anti-smoking lobby are not really interested in reasonable compromises, it has to be all or nothing - the fanatical approach.
> I was really shocked to hear about the 'denuncias anonimas' - where people are invited to sneak to the authorities on bars that are allowing smoking. Several people have said to me that it reminds them of Franco's Spain.
> 
> Oh, well, I'll keep reporting on the situation in Catalunya.




What would you do for hotels especially little hotels that may serve their food in the bar? 

The blanket ban saves any ifs and buts


----------



## gus-lopez

Inconformista said:


> Hi there,
> This would be quite funny if it were not so ridiculous!
> From a selfish point of view, this ban won't affect us so much as in the UK, because at least for most of the year it is warm enough to sit outside. But I feel sorry for the owners of small bars without outside seating, and their staff, who are going to see their trade crash in the middle of the worst recession in decades.
> 
> My solution (for the UK as well) would have been:
> Restaurants: no smoking at all (unless they had a small, separate area where people could have a coffee and cig after the meal).
> Bars that serve proper meals as well as drinks: ditto.
> Bars that just serve alcohol, coffee and snacks: leave it to proprietor. Same for private clubs.
> 
> I think this is a reasonable solution that would have suited non-smokers and smokers alike. But it seems that the anti-smoking lobby are not really interested in reasonable compromises, it has to be all or nothing - the fanatical approach.
> I was really shocked to hear about the 'denuncias anonimas' - where people are invited to sneak to the authorities on bars that are allowing smoking. Several people have said to me that it reminds them of Franco's Spain.
> 
> Oh, well, I'll keep reporting on the situation in Catalunya.


Unfortunately Inconformista, you & I are not in charge only those without a degree of common-sense. Just like most magistrates I know. 
In Murcia the minister for health announced that their will be no fines for the 1st month , just warnings to educate everyone. The anti-smoking lobby are up in arms saying that the law does not allow it . :rofl:


----------



## gus-lopez

MaidenScotland said:


> What would you do for hotels especially little hotels that may serve their food in the bar?
> 
> The blanket ban saves any ifs and buts


They can serve food or allow smoking.


----------



## jojo

bob_bob said:


> Hi everyone, I've lurked on the site for a while and just joined up.
> 
> The ban had a big impact on some pubs in the UK. Certainly in south Wales where I am just now we've seen pubs close, pubs that have been in business for many years. As for the non smokers who said 'I'll be down the put more often aften the ban' well, talking a load of tosh really, did'nt happen. Now you walk round town and see groups of people in all weather standing outside puffing away.
> 
> As an ex smoker I see both sides of the argument, in the past I'd not use some pubs because of the smoke in them (this was when I was smoking too) but I believe that having the right to choose should have been given. If a landlord and his staff are happy to take the risks of working in that envoirenment then they should have that right to do so. By all means bring in new high standards for forced ventilation but give choice.
> 
> Sorry for the long first post.
> 
> Happy new year.


My husband is an exsmoker and he thought he'd be glad of the ban as he plays in a pub ban in the UK - far from it!! He's seen popular pubs he used to play in close and the pubs that are still open have tried to turn themselves into "family friendly" food serving pubs, but are struggling. In a couple of the pubs that are still going, he finds that the atmosphere has gone, the smell of smoke has been replaced by the smell of beer, bad breath, BO and flatulence, the "punters" (even non smokers who are with smoking friends) are constantly in and out when its cold or stay outside when its warm, to the point now where they've moved the stage to face the smoking area outside, but of course the neighbours are now all complaining because of the noise, not only cos of the band, but the noise of people outside!!!

It does seem crazy that people can change their habits simply because they cant smoke, but people do and have. Smokers will still go into bars, but they wont stay as long, or spend as much money especially as drinking goes hand in hand with having a ciggie. It encourages people wandering around the streets smoking and pub crawling and its not good for "global warming" with all the patio heaters and doors in pubs being constantly used!

Why on earth they couldnt have had the "partial ban" and allow pubs and people to have the freedom of choice which is what democracy is all about is beyond me. Even my non smoking husband is convinced there's a hidden agenda somewhere!!!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> My husband is an exsmoker and he thought he'd be glad of the ban as he plays in a pub ban in the UK - far from it!! He's seen popular pubs he used to play in close and the pubs that are still open have tried to turn themselves into "family friendly" food serving pubs, but are struggling. In a couple of the pubs that are still going, he finds that the atmosphere has gone, the smell of smoke has been replaced by the smell of beer, bad breath, BO and flatulence, the "punters" (even non smokers who are with smoking friends) are constantly in and out when its cold or stay outside when its warm, to the point now where they've moved the stage to face the smoking area outside, but of course the neighbours are now all complaining because of the noise, not only cos of the band, but the noise of people outside!!!
> 
> It does seem crazy that people can change their habits simply because they cant smoke, but people do and have. Smokers will still go into bars, but they wont stay as long, or spend as much money especially as drinking goes hand in hand with having a ciggie. It encourages people wandering around the streets smoking and pub crawling and its not good for "global warming" with all the patio heaters and doors in pubs being constantly used!
> 
> Why on earth they couldnt have had the "partial ban" and allow pubs and people to have the freedom of choice which is what democracy is all about is beyond me. Even my non smoking husband is convinced there's a hidden agenda somewhere!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


And thhere you've hit the nail on the head. Control , power over the 'peasants', that's what it's all about . Bring these things in little by little, cctv the large majority of which doesn't record & more that no one is watching. Use the threat of terrorism to introduce even more restrictions & give the 'police' carte-blanche to get away with murder. They want absolute control , look at the last fuel crisis; immediately they brought in new laws to prevent the use of pickets at the refinerys immediately afterwards. Democracy, you're having a laugh ! More like the sheer terror that the general public have more sense & ability to organise than they do & the fear of them turning on them . (we can only hope ! ) :boxing:


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## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> And thhere you've hit the nail on the head. Control , power over the 'peasants', that's what it's all about . Bring these things in little by little, cctv the large majority of which doesn't record & more that no one is watching. Use the threat of terrorism to introduce even more restrictions & give the 'police' carte-blanche to get away with murder. They want absolute control , look at the last fuel crisis; immediately they brought in new laws to prevent the use of pickets at the refinerys immediately afterwards. Democracy, you're having a laugh ! More like the sheer terror that the general public have more sense & ability to organise than they do & the fear of them turning on them . (we can only hope ! ) :boxing:


Its like this latest flu frenzy going on in the UK. A good few months ago a friend of mine who works for a pharmaceutical company was telling me that the company was concerned about the excess of flu vaccine in store and the loss of money that this was causing. They were blaming the new government for not putting out the usual round of flu vaccine adverts this autumn (cost cutting???). She actually told me that the pharmaceutical industry was priming their PR men to put out a press release to "warn" the country of a flue epidemic - there wasnt one, but they needed to get rid of this stock somehow and make some money from it......

So now the UK is in terror of flu yet again! But the smoking thing???? with all the other chemicals, foods, habits, lifestyles that cause harm to the general public, the "powers that be" decide on spending squillions on banning cigarettes in public places. They then claim that sales of cigarettes have dropped since the ban (er.... thats cos the taxes are so high there is a very healthy, rapidly growing and profitable black market in ciggies in the UK - does anyone still buy them OTC in the UK?????) 

Anyway, I'll shut up now cos I'm going outside to sit on my terrace for a ciggie! 

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> ....... Oh and apparently there is a special police squad in our area who are dedicated to "stop smoking in public places". Apparently they went out at 1am on 2nd January to all the "British bars" in the area and "nicked" everyone who was smoking!!!! Theres a bit of an outcry amongst the brit community here lol
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


:clap2::clap2::clap2:
Sorry to appear unsympathetic but do these people think they are above the law, or is there still an attitude that "it´s Spain, they won´t bother"?


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2:
> Sorry to appear unsympathetic but do these people think they are above the law, or is there still an attitude that "it´s Spain, they won´t bother"?



I think the point was that it was only an hour after the ban took effect and this "squad" only targeted the british bars!!


Jo xxx


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## jimenato

jojo said:


> Its like this latest flu frenzy going on in the UK. A good few months ago a friend of mine who works for a pharmaceutical company was telling me that the company was concerned about the excess of flu vaccine in store and the loss of money that this was causing. They were blaming the new government for not putting out the usual round of flu vaccine adverts this autumn (cost cutting???). She actually told me that the pharmaceutical industry was priming their PR men to put out a press release to "warn" the country of a flue epidemic - there wasnt one, but they needed to get rid of this stock somehow and make some money from it......
> 
> So now the UK is in terror of flu yet again!
> Jo xxx


Are you suggesting that all those people haven't died from flu or are you saying that the deaths shouldn't have been reported?


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> Are you suggesting that all those people haven't died from flu or are you saying that the deaths shouldn't have been reported?


I'm suggesting that this latest frenzy about flu is as a result of the pharmaceutical industry putting out a press release as THEY were concerned about their unused stocks of vaccine - altho I think that has been sorted now!!  

Jo xx


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## jimenato

jojo said:


> I'm suggesting that this latest frenzy about flu is as a result of the pharmaceutical industry putting out a press release as THEY were concerned about their unused stocks of vaccine - altho I think that has been sorted now!!
> 
> Jo xx


Oh! OK. I sort of assumed that the 'frenzy' such as it is was caused by 39 people dying and every ICU being full up with flu sufferers. But as you say, it was probably caused by pharma pointing out that not many people were having flu jabs...


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> Oh! OK. I sort of assumed that the 'frenzy' such as it is was caused by 39 people dying and every ICU being full up with flu sufferers. But as you say, it was probably caused by pharma pointing out that not many people were having flu jabs...


Thats right! The pharma have drawn attention to what flu does even when jabs are taken up, the media have joined in and caused the usual annual flu panic. 
:focus:


Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> But what if it has three walls and no roof?


I don't think it would count. You'll have to knock a wall down !


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## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> Thats right! The pharma have drawn attention to what flu does even when jabs are taken up, the media have joined in and caused the usual annual flu panic.
> :focus:
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, they had 500 million pounds worth in stock with a use by date of aug. 2011 !


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## gus-lopez

More Spanish bars join the smoking rebellion 
Our Steves commenting in support .:clap2:


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> More Spanish bars join the smoking rebellion
> Our Steves commenting in support .:clap2:


And he's right. With all the really bad things going on, do we want the police spending time and wasting scarce resources driving around dealing with denuncias about smoking in bars?
We know nicotine kills, as do alcohol, fast cars, excessive consumption of junk food, not taking enough exercise and many other drugs if consumed in excess.
As I keep on saying, why not allow bar owners to choose whether to be smoke-free or not? There will surely be enough non-smokers (me being one of them) to keep smoke-free bars in business.
Surely the police should be tackling the organised crime that gives some parts of Spain such a naff reputation. I've just learnt to my astonishment that a plaque on a wall five minutes from our villa commemorates the drive-by shooting of an Irish gangster by the Russian Mafia
And I thought we lived in a respectable area....
No wonder some of our friends raised their eyebrows when they learned we were going to live on the Costa Del Sol...
There are SERIOUS problems of drugs, prostitution, trafficking of women and money laundering that need to be given priority. 
Not persecuting Manolo because a customer lit up a Benson and Hedges or whatever in his bar.


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## jimenato

We have been open for two nights now since the ban - Tuesday and Wednesday. They have been our busiest normal (no party or special occasion) Tuesday and Wednesday since we opened four months ago. Nobody complained - all went outside to smoke. I (an ex smoker) didn't really notice the difference in the air but a couple of people said they did.

I know, it means little really, it's still a holiday time, but it makes me a little more confident that we will survive.


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## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> And he's right. With all the really bad things going on, do we want the police spending time and wasting scarce resources driving around dealing with denuncias about smoking in bars?
> 
> As I keep on saying, why not allow bar owners to choose whether to be smoke-free or not? There will surely be enough non-smokers (me being one of them) to keep smoke-free bars in business.


Surely that's what has just been tried and failed miserably.

Of twenty plus bars within a few kms of me, not even a single one was smoke free.
Sometimes ppl don't know what is best for themselves, until they've actually tried something different and found out it's really all for the best, which seems to be the way it's working out in other countries.

I don't think the whole police force will be tied up checking bars.
They probably have a special group, who are more than likely good for nothing else, doing the rounds and following up reports in a systematic manner, if such a thing exists in Spain.


----------



## jimenato

littleredrooster said:


> Surely that's what has just been tried and failed miserably.
> 
> Of twenty plus bars within a few kms of me, not even a single one was smoke free.
> Sometimes ppl don't know what is best for themselves, until they've actually tried something different and found out it's really all for the best, which seems to be the way it's working out in other countries.
> 
> I don't think the whole police force will be tied up checking bars.
> They probably have a special group, who are more than likely good for nothing else, doing the rounds and following up reports in a systematic manner, if such a thing exists in Spain.


Yes you are quite right rooster - Mary has described exactly the situation which pertained for the last few years and there were virtually no smoke free bars - none that I know of. So that didn't work at all.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> And he's right. With all the really bad things going on, do we want the police spending time and wasting scarce resources driving around dealing with denuncias about smoking in bars?
> We know nicotine kills, as do alcohol, fast cars, excessive consumption of junk food, not taking enough exercise and many other drugs if consumed in excess.
> As I keep on saying, why not allow bar owners to choose whether to be smoke-free or not? There will surely be enough non-smokers (me being one of them) to keep smoke-free bars in business.
> Surely the police should be tackling the organised crime that gives some parts of Spain such a naff reputation. I've just learnt to my astonishment that a plaque on a wall five minutes from our villa commemorates the drive-by shooting of an Irish gangster by the Russian Mafia
> And I thought we lived in a respectable area....
> No wonder some of our friends raised their eyebrows when they learned we were going to live on the Costa Del Sol...
> There are SERIOUS problems of drugs, prostitution, trafficking of women and money laundering that need to be given priority.
> Not persecuting Manolo because a customer lit up a Benson and Hedges or whatever in his bar.


Unfortunately they are. I went in a bar yesterday afternoon & there was 3 policia local in their checking up. In 9 years I've never seen 1 in their before ! They were quite happy with the outside smoking area which used to be just covered with a roll-out awning but now, since tuesday , has been fitted with plastic 'walls' on 3 sides. ( 4th side is the building !) Even the bar in our pueblo , which is tiny, has a tent outside , & I mean a tent ! :rofl:
Apparently it's also the job of the EHo's to check on their 6 monthly inspections.


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## jojo

I drove passed my local last night and saw at least two people inside smoking, admittedly their table was next to the door, but there was no one sitting outside on the makeshift outside bar - all inside!???
It'll be interesting to see what happens when the dust settles - I suspect most in the larger towns will adhere, but the little local bars will carry on as they always have

jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

I'll be interested to see if they take the telly outside when Real Madrid are playing ...


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Yes you are quite right rooster - Mary has described exactly the situation which pertained for the last few years and there were virtually no smoke free bars - none that I know of. So that didn't work at all.



I give up. There seems to be no satisfactory solution. I drink at home anyway...
I guess that Spain will be like the UK, Czech Republic, Germany and all the other places where public smoking is banned...a period of righteous indignation and defiance followed by sulky acquiescence and finally accepting the ban as 'normal'.


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## Inconformista

littleredrooster said:


> Surely that's what has just been tried and failed miserably.
> 
> Of twenty plus bars within a few kms of me, not even a single one was smoke free.
> Sometimes ppl don't know what is best for themselves, until they've actually tried something different and found out it's really all for the best, which seems to be the way it's working out in other countries.
> 
> I don't think the whole police force will be tied up checking bars.
> They probably have a special group, who are more than likely good for nothing else, doing the rounds and following up reports in a systematic manner, if such a thing exists in Spain.


No - the one thing that has NOT been tried, either in Spain or the UK, is a sensible compromise. Before the ban, non-smokers had a raw deal in Spain, there were very few bars without smoke, and it was impossible to eat a meal without smoke. 

But now, we go to the opposite extreme, and we have a crazy situation where it is impossible for a smoker to enjoy a coffee or beer with a cigarette, in any bar or club, and thousands of small bars with no outside space are facing a massive loss of trade in the middle of a recession. 

Why is it beyond the wit of governments to provide for more than one set of people? A compromise may be more complicated than a total ban, but human society is complicated because human beings are all different, and in my view it is the job of democratic government to find solutions that suit more than just one group of people. If they fail to do this, they are being lazy and autocratic.

Also, your second point, that "people sometimes don't know what's best for themselves"...
Are you suggesting that we are just children, who need 'adult' governments to tell us what to do? This is a dangerous position to take. I think most people DO know what is best for themselves, in their own lives, and once they have been given the relevant information, they should be free to make up their own minds. If this means taking risks, so be it.


----------



## jojo

Inconformista said:


> No - the one thing that has NOT been tried, either in Spain or the UK, is a sensible compromise. Before the ban, non-smokers had a raw deal in Spain, there were very few bars without smoke, and it was impossible to eat a meal without smoke.
> 
> But now, we go to the opposite extreme, and we have a crazy situation where it is impossible for a smoker to enjoy a coffee or beer with a cigarette, in any bar or club, and thousands of small bars with no outside space are facing a massive loss of trade in the middle of a recession.
> 
> Why is it beyond the wit of governments to provide for more than one set of people? A compromise may be more complicated than a total ban, but human society is complicated because human beings are all different, and in my view it is the job of democratic government to find solutions that suit more than just one group of people. If they fail to do this, they are being lazy and autocratic.
> 
> Also, your second point, that "people sometimes don't know what's best for themselves"...
> Are you suggesting that we are just children, who need 'adult' governments to tell us what to do? This is a dangerous position to take. I think most people DO know what is best for themselves, in their own lives, and once they have been given the relevant information, they should be free to make up their own minds. If this means taking risks, so be it.



Agreed! and what bothers me is where all this dictating by governments will end??

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Agreed! and what bothers me is where all this dictating by governments will end??
> 
> Jo xxx


No democratically-elected Government 'dictates'. Laws are passed by Parliament and the anti-smoking vote in the UK was passed with a majority comprising members of all Parties. I think it was also the case in Spain.
Our MPs in the UK are 'representatives' not 'delegates' and do not have a mandate. I guess it's the same in Spain as in most democracies.
MPs are supposed to use their knowledge and judgment on our behalf. Let's be honest, many of those who bother to vote do so out of habit, prejudice and ignorance rather than considered knowledge of economic and social fact. That was certainly true of many people who voted for me during my time in politics, I have no illusions about that.
I suppose that, having fought many elections at local, national and European level, I ought to know a little bit more then some about some issues as I had the benefit of briefings and guidance from so-called experts. But I know sod-all about anything to do with the environment, health issues, anything remotely scientific so I can't really come to a firm conclusion about those kinds of issues.
We should really be careful about using words like 'dictate'. There are still regimes in many parts of the world where totalitarian governments do dictate to their populations - Burma/Myanmar being just one example.
I used to get peeved when people called Mrs Thatcher 'fascist'....it showed their lack of experience and understanding of fascism and was an insult to those who had experienced it in practice...as well as being an insult to Mrs T. who was many things but not a fascist.
Ask anyone old enough to have grown up under Franco and they will tell you all about 'dictating' governments.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> No democratically-elected Government 'dictates'. Laws are passed by Parliament and the anti-smoking vote in the UK was passed with a majority comprising members of all Parties. I think it was also the case in Spain.
> Our MPs in the UK are 'representatives' not 'delegates' and do not have a mandate. I guess it's the same in Spain as in most democracies.
> MPs are supposed to use their knowledge and judgment on our behalf. Let's be honest, many of those who bother to vote do so out of habit, prejudice and ignorance rather than considered knowledge of economic and social fact. That was certainly true of many people who voted for me during my time in politics, I have no illusions about that.
> I suppose that, having fought many elections at local, national and European level, I ought to know a little bit more then some about some issues as I had the benefit of briefings and guidance from so-called experts. But I know sod-all about anything to do with the environment, health issues, anything remotely scientific so I can't really come to a firm conclusion about those kinds of issues.
> We should really be careful about using words like 'dictate'. There are still regimes in many parts of the world where totalitarian governments do dictate to their populations - Burma/Myanmar being just one example.
> I used to get peeved when people called Mrs Thatcher 'fascist'....it showed their lack of experience and understanding of fascism and was an insult to those who had experienced it in practice...as well as being an insult to Mrs T. who was many things but not a fascist.
> Ask anyone old enough to have grown up under Franco and they will tell you all about 'dictating' governments.


The trouble with democracy is that its not "bespoke"! You may like the majority of what you elect for, but not everything. Couple that with the changes in worldwide issues that need decisions made quickly and its not really democratic at all! In the end, we all just have to live in our own little bubble and make sure that our nearest and dearest are happy and looked after!

jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

Inconformista said:


> No - the one thing that has NOT been tried, either in Spain or the UK, is a sensible compromise. Before the ban, non-smokers had a raw deal in Spain, there were very few bars without smoke, and it was impossible to eat a meal without smoke.
> 
> But now, we go to the opposite extreme, and we have a crazy situation where it is impossible for a smoker to enjoy a coffee or beer with a cigarette, in any bar or club, and thousands of small bars with no outside space are facing a massive loss of trade in the middle of a recession.
> 
> Why is it beyond the wit of governments to provide for more than one set of people? A compromise may be more complicated than a total ban, but human society is complicated because human beings are all different, and in my view it is the job of democratic government to find solutions that suit more than just one group of people. If they fail to do this, they are being lazy and autocratic.
> 
> Also, your second point, that "people sometimes don't know what's best for themselves"...
> Are you suggesting that we are just children, who need 'adult' governments to tell us what to do? This is a dangerous position to take. I think most people DO know what is best for themselves, in their own lives, and once they have been given the relevant information, they should be free to make up their own minds. If this means taking risks, so be it.


The scenario which Mary and rooster referred to where each bar could choose to be smoking or non-smoking has indeed been tried - it was what was in force before the current ban was imposed. A couple of bars in my village went non-smoking and changed back within a week. 

From wikipedia



> From 2006 to 2010, Spain had a partial ban on smoking in public places. Offices, schools, hospitals and public transportation were smoke-free, but restaurants and bars could create a "smokers section" or allow smoking if they were small (under 100m2). [115].


You don't say what you mean by 'sensible compromise'. My sensible compromise would be to have proper separate sections or rooms for smokers/non-smokers. Not ideal but probably would have satisfied most people which is all one could hope for. Of course this has always been an option for bars but very few of them did it. Which is probably why we now have the blanket ban.


----------



## Inconformista

jimenato said:


> You don't say what you mean by 'sensible compromise'. My sensible compromise would be to have proper separate sections or rooms for smokers/non-smokers. Not ideal but probably would have satisfied most people which is all one could hope for. Of course this has always been an option for bars but very few of them did it. Which is probably why we now have the blanket ban.


Hello - I did say what I meant by a compromise in an earlier post - I just didn't want to keep repeating myself! But anyway, I would suggest a ban on smoking in all restaurants (unless they can provide a totally separate area to have a cigarette after the meal etc); a similar rule for bars that serve proper meals; but in bars, cafés and clubs that just serve drinks and snacks, then it should be left to the owner whether to allow smoking or not. The result I think would be a good choice of places for non-smokers and smokers. 

This is just one idea - there are loads of other possibilities, including your suggestion. That's my point - I don't see why it has to be a choice between smoking everywhere and a blanket ban.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> The trouble with democracy is that its not "bespoke"! You may like the majority of what you elect for, but not everything. Couple that with the changes in worldwide issues that need decisions made quickly and its not really democratic at all! In the end, we all just have to live in our own little bubble and make sure that our nearest and dearest are happy and looked after!
> 
> jo xxx


Yes, it might have worked in Ancient Greece (where only 'free' men were allowed to vote) but life is too complex and fast-moving nowadays, as you say.
Also true that you never get a Government that does everything you like; I approve of the Coalition's approach to benefit reform but I don't like the economic strategy -cuts too deep and too fast - and I'm not happy with revoking control orders on terrorist suspects.
Ah well......I wish I could ignore it all...But I'm beginning to think that politics is an addiction, like smoking, drinking, gambling etc.


----------



## mwells

Or alternatively you could take up a hobby or give your time freely to a hospital, to keep your mind occupied.

M




jimenato said:


> I'll call the cops. And I'll be checking out all the other bars to make sure they're complying.


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## littleredrooster

Inconformista said:


> No - the one thing that has NOT been tried, either in Spain or the UK, is a sensible compromise. Before the ban, non-smokers had a raw deal in Spain, there were very few bars without smoke, and it was impossible to eat a meal without smoke.
> 
> But now, we go to the opposite extreme, and we have a crazy situation where it is impossible for a smoker to enjoy a coffee or beer with a cigarette, in any bar or club, and thousands of small bars with no outside space are facing a massive loss of trade in the middle of a recession.
> 
> Why is it beyond the wit of governments to provide for more than one set of people? A compromise may be more complicated than a total ban, but human society is complicated because human beings are all different, and in my view it is the job of democratic government to find solutions that suit more than just one group of people. If they fail to do this, they are being lazy and autocratic.
> 
> Also, your second point, that "people sometimes don't know what's best for themselves"...
> Are you suggesting that we are just children, who need 'adult' governments to tell us what to do? This is a dangerous position to take. I think most people DO know what is best for themselves, in their own lives, and once they have been given the relevant information, they should be free to make up their own minds. If this means taking risks, so be it.


So what do you suggest in place of the failed compromise of the last few years ?

You simply criticize without suggesting a positive alternative.

In the countries I have been since smoking bans came into being, I have seen nothing but positive effects.

In no time at all, it becomes the accepted norm, and in addition ppl are soon appreciating the benefits, both healthwise and in their pockets.


One of the problems is jo, that many ppl are to dumb to know what is best for themselves anyway, and thats why it sometimes needs to be spelt out for them.


----------



## mrypg9

mwells said:


> Or alternatively you could take up a hobby or give your time freely to a hospital, to keep your mind occupied.
> 
> M


Or work for an animal rescue charity which cares for pets abandoned mainly by departing Brits....


----------



## mwells

*Smoking ban*

Here here.




mrypg9 said:


> Or work for an animal rescue charity which cares for pets abandoned mainly by departing Brits....


----------



## jimenato

mwells said:


> Or alternatively you could take up a hobby or give your time freely to a hospital, to keep your mind occupied.
> 
> M


:noidea:


----------



## jimenato

mwells said:


> Here here.


:confused2:


----------



## Alcalaina

mwells said:


> Or alternatively you could take up a hobby or give your time freely to a hospital, to keep your mind occupied.
> 
> M


Er ... Jimenato spends his time running a very nice bar and doesn't want to get a massive fine!


----------



## Caz.I

Alcalaina said:


> Er ... Jimenato spends his time running a very nice bar and doesn't want to get a massive fine!


I dont think he would get a fine as he says he is complying with the ban, quite reasonably - since it is the law now - but just wants to ensure that there is fair play in the other bars near to him and that they don't flout the law. And good luck to him.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> :confused2:


Yes , I got lost as well.her's a copy of the legislation , in english, The new anti-smoking legislation in Spain in detail

You'll see 4 walls & no roof is ok or a roof & only 2 walls.


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Surely the police should be tackling the organised crime that gives some parts of Spain such a naff reputation. I've just learnt to my astonishment that a plaque on a wall five minutes from our villa commemorates the drive-by shooting of an Irish gangster by the Russian Mafia
> And I thought we lived in a respectable area....
> No wonder some of our friends raised their eyebrows when they learned we were going to live on the Costa Del Sol...
> There are SERIOUS problems of drugs, prostitution, trafficking of women and money laundering that need to be given priority.


Not another neighbour, is it Mary ? British man shot outside his home in Mijas :rofl:


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> Yes , I got lost as well.her's a copy of the legislation , in english, The new anti-smoking legislation in Spain in detail
> 
> You'll see 4 walls & no roof is ok or a roof & only 2 walls.


Good find - thanks Gus. I reckon that means I'm OK as I can slide the roof back and open the front wall entirely.


----------



## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> Or work for an animal rescue charity which cares for pets abandoned mainly by departing Brits....


No wish to start a Brit/Spanish dispute, but I reckon the number of deliberately abandoned Spanish pets is massive compared to those left, quite often reluctantly by Brits.
Furthermore, I would bet that most of the Brit pets had on average enjoyed a hell of a lot better previous lifestyle and were probably the least needy of the two.


----------



## jimenato

littleredrooster said:


> No wish to start a Brit/Spanish dispute, but I reckon the number of deliberately abandoned Spanish pets is massive compared to those left, quite often reluctantly by Brits.
> Furthermore, I would bet that most of the Brit pets had on average enjoyed a hell of a lot better previous lifestyle and were probably the least needy of the two.


Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. There are a couple of unofficial shelters around here - basically Brits with a bit of land but who have accumulated any number of abandoned dogs and other animals over the years and, around here, they won't have been abandoned by Brits. 

However considering where it is, it's possible that the charity to which Mary is referring does actually cater for abandoned Brit pets...


----------



## mwells

*Moving to Spain*

Apart from the smoking/abandoned dogs issue, how long have you lived in Spain and are you enjoying your life there, or not.

Interested to hear due to our intention of retiring there in 6 month time, or so.




jimenato said:


> Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. There are a couple of unofficial shelters around here - basically Brits with a bit of land but who have accumulated any number of abandoned dogs and other animals over the years and, around here, they won't have been abandoned by Brits.
> 
> However considering where it is, it's possible that the charity to which Mary is referring does actually cater for abandoned Brit pets...


----------



## littleredrooster

mwells said:


> Apart from the smoking/abandoned dogs issue, how long have you lived in Spain and are you enjoying your life there, or not.
> 
> Interested to hear due to our intention of retiring there in 6 month time, or so.


Like everywhere else, life is what you make it, though location,location,location and friendly considerate neighbours are four major factors.
Compared to the UK, mainland Spain probably has only slightly more positives than negatives for me.
The Canaries were my biggest love, partly because of the much better climate, but I was long overdue for a change and a bit more variety.
Some think it's paradise, others yearn for the UK.
Find the right spot and it can be true bliss,.. well most of the time anyway.
End up in the wrong one and it doesn't bear thinking about.
Hope you find something to suit your needs.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. There are a couple of unofficial shelters around here - basically Brits with a bit of land but who have accumulated any number of abandoned dogs and other animals over the years and, around here, they won't have been abandoned by Brits.
> 
> However considering where it is, it's possible that the charity to which Mary is referring does actually cater for abandoned Brit pets...


On reflection, I think you and Gus are right, I was too harsh on Brits, probably because I've had more direct dealings with Brits who want to 'drop off' their pets than any other nationality. 
It's also true that the Board of Management of our organisation is 100 per cent British although people of all nationalities work for and with us.
And of course if we find a cardboard box of puppies dumped by the basuras we have no way of telling the nationality of whoever dropped them there.
So...I withdraw that slur on my fellow-compatriots.


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Not another neighbour, is it Mary ? British man shot outside his home in Mijas :rofl:


No Gus, we're further south!
Our shooting was apparently score-settling by the Russian Mafia employing Spetnaz!
But this latest incident indicates that the gang/drugs/prostitution problem dwarfs the importance of enforcing a smoking ban, doesn't it?


----------



## MaidenScotland

Problem solved

The prohibition does not apply to private smokers clubs. These can be established by an individual who becomes legally responsible, are non-profit making, and do not include among their activities the sale or any items or services. Children are not allowed in such clubs.

Read more: The new anti-smoking legislation in Spain in detail


----------



## Caz.I

mrypg9 said:


> No Gus, we're further south!
> Our shooting was apparently score-settling by the Russian Mafia employing Spetnaz!
> But this latest incident indicates that the gang/drugs/prostitution problem dwarfs the importance of enforcing a smoking ban, doesn't it?


Well, obviously, these serious crimes are huge problems here (as in many other countries, including the UK), and they should be dealt with accordingly. However, drug and human trafficking, organised crime etc are dealt with by the Guardia Civil/National Police while the enforcement of the smoking ban is dealt with by the local police so the argument is totally disingenous. Of course everyone agrees that more should be done to deal with the serious crimes mentioned above, but while those of you all set off to fight International crime on the Costa  for the next few decades (with all the money and will in the world it would take at least that long to resolve), is it really too much to ask that I can go for a morning coffee with my son without the two of us being forced to inhale other people’s smoke? Apparently so. I have to choose between clean air or the mafia??!! Come on!!

The government always knew that a certain section of the community would rebel against the ban, which is why they are being rigorous in enforcing it upon its introduction. They do actually need to show that they are serious about it being be upheld since the last anti tobacco law was totally ineffective. It would be a bit pointless passing laws, really if no one was prepared to enforce the laws and regulations, particularly pertaining to businesses who provide services to the public. Saying that there are more important things to worry about, is simply a way of evading the issue, nothing more. And, by the way, it’s the same argument many people I have met use when talking about animal cruelty and neglect etc. They say, "yes, of course they should care for animals but 'this, that and the other' is more important". It’s just an argument for doing nothing about an issue you don’t care about.

As Maiden Scotland has pointed out, some bars have started smoking clubs, other gastronomy clubs (which ,apparently, are exempt too) are being started, and the multitude of terraces that exist outside the bars of Spain will be fully utilized. Plus, I am certain all bar owners will find a way of creating space for smokers, in one way or another. (People here are ingenious at finding ways around the Law lol.  The over reaction to this law is just mass hysteria. I have been in two local bars this week, and everyone seemed happy. Some smokers and non smokers were outside on the terraces or streets and some non smokers were inside. No riots.


----------



## mrypg9

Caz.I said:


> The over reaction to this law is just mass hysteria. I have been in two local bars this week, and everyone seemed happy. Some smokers and non smokers were outside on the terraces or streets and some non smokers were inside. No riots.


Which, in a different way, is the point I was trying to make.
In the global scale of things, it's no big deal.
For non-smokers like me the situation hasn't changed. Before the law came into force there were many places locally where I could enjoy a smoke-free coffee and I'm sure our little neck of the woods isn't unique...


----------



## Caz.I

mrypg9 said:


> Which, in a different way, is the point I was trying to make.
> In the global scale of things, it's no big deal.
> For non-smokers like me the situation hasn't changed. Before the law came into force there were many places locally where I could enjoy a smoke-free coffee and I'm sure our little neck of the woods isn't unique...


Trust me, it _is_ unique compared with the rest of Spain. (But perhaps your area is more upmarket and things are different.) Before the ban, there was nowhere for me and my son to go, as far as bars/cafes (here they are one and the same thing) were concerned. Sitting inside one of these smoky (90% of the time) places, I was really worried about the effects of smoke on my son (and me) and hated not being able to breathe properly. Plus when I went out for the night, I hated coming back stinking of smoke and feeling ill and wheezing. So for me, this Law is, literally, a breath of fresh air.

What has really changed is that the smokers have changed places with the non smokers, so now non smokers can enjoy smoke free inside areas, which I think is fair and reasonable. 

Re. your comment on the global scale of things, sometimes it is little changes which happen on the local level that can eventually influence the global. I dont mean the mafia in this case, necessarily, (although possibly they might have less income from illegal tobacco in the long run), but change to society as a whole. We need to set good examples for our children on this matter (as in others) and show as a society that smoking is not the norm. That is another reason why such laws are necessary.


----------



## littleredrooster

Caz.I said:


> Trust me, it _is_ unique compared with the rest of Spain. (But perhaps your area is more upmarket and things are different.) Before the ban, there was nowhere for me and my son to go, as far as bars/cafes (here they are one and the same thing) were concerned. Sitting inside one of these smoky (90% of the time) places, I was really worried about the effects of smoke on my son (and me) and hated not being able to breathe properly. Plus when I went out for the night, I hated coming back stinking of smoke and feeling ill and wheezing. So for me, this Law is, literally, a breath of fresh air.
> 
> What has really changed is that the smokers have changed places with the non smokers, so now non smokers can enjoy smoke free inside areas, which I think is fair and reasonable.
> 
> Re. your comment on the global scale of things, sometimes it is little changes which happen on the local level that can eventually influence the global. I dont mean the mafia in this case, necessarily, (although possibly they might have less income from illegal tobacco in the long run), but change to society as a whole. We need to set good examples for our children on this matter (as in others) and show as a society that smoking is not the norm. That is another reason why such laws are necessary.


Quite agree, 
The compromise clearly did NOT work, and there have been countless posts on numerous forums expressing concern that things had hardly changed at all, and lots of non smokers still could not find a single smoke free bar/cafe in their own area.


----------



## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> No Gus, we're further south!
> Our shooting was apparently score-settling by the Russian Mafia employing Spetnaz!
> But this latest incident indicates that the gang/drugs/prostitution problem dwarfs the importance of enforcing a smoking ban, doesn't it?



That all depends whether you prefer a quick death with a slug in the back of your head, or a much slower and possibly more tortuous one.


----------



## mrypg9

Caz.I said:


> Trust me, it _is_ unique compared with the rest of Spain. (But perhaps your area is more upmarket and things are different.) Before the ban, there was nowhere for me and my son to go, as far as bars/cafes (here they are one and the same thing) were concerned. Sitting inside one of these smoky (90% of the time) places, I was really worried about the effects of smoke on my son (and me) and hated not being able to breathe properly. Plus when I went out for the night, I hated coming back stinking of smoke and feeling ill and wheezing. So for me, this Law is, literally, a breath of fresh air.
> 
> What has really changed is that the smokers have changed places with the non smokers, so now non smokers can enjoy smoke free inside areas, which I think is fair and reasonable.
> 
> Re. your comment on the global scale of things, sometimes it is little changes which happen on the local level that can eventually influence the global. I dont mean the mafia in this case, necessarily, (although possibly they might have less income from illegal tobacco in the long run), but change to society as a whole. We need to set good examples for our children on this matter (as in others) and show as a society that smoking is not the norm. That is another reason why such laws are necessary.


We don't really disagree.
Before the ban in Prague, going into most bars and restaurants was like pushing aside a thick blue curtain of smoke. It was just horrible. You had to inhale the fresh air outside deeply before going in. We were once dining in what was meant to be an upmarket restaurant when an American couple sat at the next table and proceeded to light a cigar.....
Our area is usually described a 'upmarket' although having mafiosi around kind of lowers the tone in my eyes at least. We have a rather nice patisserie/coffee shop and a couple of cafes with large terraces too.
I think it's very important to educate young people about the perils of alcohol, tobacco etc. which is the norm in UK schools, don't know if that's the case in Spain.
If not, it should be.


----------



## xabiaxica

littleredrooster said:


> Quite agree,
> The compromise clearly did NOT work, and there have been countless posts on numerous forums expressing concern that things had hardly changed at all, and lots of non smokers still could not find a single smoke free bar/cafe in their own area.


there wasn't a smoke-free bar around here, either

now the smokers can just pop out for a quick drag, whereas unless we wanted to stink, us non-smokers had to sit outside in the cold all the time

in a few weeks no-one will care anyway - we'll all be able to sit outside:nod:


----------



## MaidenScotland

mrypg9 said:


> Which, in a different way, is the point I was trying to make.
> In the global scale of things, it's no big deal.
> For non-smokers like me the situation hasn't changed. Before the law came into force there were many places locally where I could enjoy a smoke-free coffee and I'm sure our little neck of the woods isn't unique...




I have never found anywhere in my area that does not come with complimentary blue fug


----------



## Alcalaina

Alcalaina said:


> I'll be interested to see if they take the telly outside when Real Madrid are playing ...


They moved the TV to the window and turned it round so people could sit outside under the awning and watch it!


----------



## Caz.I

mrypg9 said:


> Our area is usually described a 'upmarket' although having mafiosi around kind of lowers the tone in my eyes at least. We have a rather nice patisserie/coffee shop and a couple of cafes with large terraces too.
> I think it's very important to educate young people about the perils of alcohol, tobacco etc. which is the norm in UK schools, don't know if that's the case in Spain.
> If not, it should be.


I know, but the mafiosi and gangsters do tend to gravitate towards upmarket areas on the Costa so they can live the good life. (And, apparently, send their children to the more expensive schools here.) Anyway, didnt you say before you had the Michelle Obama visit near you? So I am sure local estate agents round your way will be pushing that one for years lol. 

I would imagine they teach about alcohol, tobacco etc in school though not totally sure as my son is still only five. But, of course, children learn more through the behaviour of the adults around them, for better or worse!


----------



## mrypg9

Caz.I said:


> I know, but the mafiosi and gangsters do tend to gravitate towards upmarket areas on the Costa so they can liv


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> On reflection, I think you and Gus are right, I was too harsh on Brits, probably because I've had more direct dealings with Brits who want to 'drop off' their pets than any other nationality.
> It's also true that the Board of Management of our organisation is 100 per cent British although people of all nationalities work for and with us.
> And of course if we find a cardboard box of puppies dumped by the basuras we have no way of telling the nationality of whoever dropped them there.
> So...I withdraw that slur on my fellow-compatriots.


If only more people were able to see a slight flaw in their thinking and were then willing to change their mind like that. The world would be a better place:kiss::clap2: :clap2:


----------



## xabiaxica

Caz.I said:


> I know, but the mafiosi and gangsters do tend to gravitate towards upmarket areas on the Costa so they can live the good life. (And, apparently, send their children to the more expensive schools here.) Anyway, didnt you say before you had the Michelle Obama visit near you? So I am sure local estate agents round your way will be pushing that one for years lol.
> 
> I would imagine they teach about alcohol, tobacco etc in school though not totally sure as my son is still only five. But, of course, children learn more through the behaviour of the adults around them, for better or worse!


they do teach about the dangers alcohol, tobacco & all other sorts of drugs at school

my younger dd (11) has had lessons about alcohol & tobacco

my elder dd (nearly 15) has had lessons about the dangers of all sorts of drugs












I'm not entirely sure what they are teaching - dd2 called me an alky when I bought a 12 pack of lager:eek


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pleased to report that the part of Bilbao where I was, was full of smoke free bars. I was also in a large restaurant with bar in a country area with all smokers outside, and was out with friends who smoke in Algorta. However it was extremely warm there, 22ºC at one point, and don't forget that Bilbao is in the north. We'll have to see what happens in worse weather, but there don't seem to be any problems for now. It's true that the terraces were packed and not having any pavement space could be a problem. I asked the people that smoke if they thought there would be less people in the bars and they laughed in my face. "This is Spain where drink is too important," they said. Time will tell, but I tend to agree. As I've said before it's really sad that some will think that smoking is more important than going out and socialising.
IMO the reduced number of clients in pubs in England is more due to the price of alcohol and the financial crisis than not being able to smoke. Ans as someone said before most pubs that closed were the bad ones or ones that couldn't or wouldn't adapt to change


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Pleased to report that the part of Bilbao where I was, was full of smoke free bars. I was also in a large restaurant with bar in a country area with all smokers outside, and was out with friends who smoke in Algorta. However it was extremely warm there, 22ºC at one point, and don't forget that Bilbao is in the north. We'll have to see what happens in worse weather, but there don't seem to be any problems for now. It's true that the terraces were packed and not having any pavement space could be a problem. I asked the people that smoke if they thought there would be less people in the bars and they laughed in my face. "This is Spain where drink is too important," they said. Time will tell, but I tend to agree. As I've said before it's really sad that some will think that smoking is more important than going out and socialising.
> IMO the reduced number of clients in pubs in England is more due to the price of alcohol and the financial crisis than not being able to smoke. Ans as someone said before most pubs that closed were the bad ones or ones that couldn't or wouldn't adapt to change


:clap2:welcome back!!


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> :clap2:welcome back!!


Thank you xabia!


----------



## bob_bob

"IMO the reduced number of clients in pubs in England is more due to the price of alcohol and the financial crisis than not being able to smoke. Ans as someone said before most pubs that closed were the bad ones or ones that couldn't or wouldn't adapt to change"

I'd have to say no to that one, the smoking ban directly closed down a lot of pubs, especially those with no garden or patio area.

The English pub has really changed, the traditional pub is dwindling fast, sure, lots of 'gastro pubs' opening but they close just as quick. A lot of pub users want(ed) a pub where you could go and have a pint, a smoke, pack of crisps and chat with mates, not sit there drinking some exotic beer from Peru at £5 per 250ml a bottle and paying £6 for a Thai fish cake on a bed of wilted spinach.

What has changed in the UK is drinking at home. Beer in Tesco and Asda etc is dirt cheap, people stay in drinking and eating a home deliverd kebab with a mate or two a lot more these days, its all rather sad really.


----------



## littleredrooster

bob_bob said:


> "IMO the reduced number of clients in pubs in England is more due to the price of alcohol and the financial crisis than not being able to smoke. Ans as someone said before most pubs that closed were the bad ones or ones that couldn't or wouldn't adapt to change"
> 
> I'd have to say no to that one, the smoking ban directly closed down a lot of pubs, especially those with no garden or patio area.
> 
> The English pub has really changed, the traditional pub is dwindling fast, sure, lots of 'gastro pubs' opening but they close just as quick. A lot of pub users want(ed) a pub where you could go and have a pint, a smoke, pack of crisps and chat with mates, not sit there drinking some exotic beer from Peru at £5 per 250ml a bottle and paying £6 for a Thai fish cake on a bed of wilted spinach.
> 
> What has changed in the UK is drinking at home. Beer in Tesco and Asda etc is dirt cheap, people stay in drinking and eating a home deliverd kebab with a mate or two a lot more these days, its all rather sad really.


Apart from cheaper drinks many more ppl stay at home because of the huge variety of home entertainment they now have at their finger tips.
The tightening up of drink driving enforcement has also played a part.

Plenty of traditional pubs are still doing well and not necessarily by providing exotic meals, though most of them do provide food of various standards.
The better ones are now often centres for 101 social activities, involving everyone from OAPs to kids, with always something going on.

The dog end of the market, pubs, those where you only wipe your feet on the way out, and cater just for boozers and drunks are thankfully going downhill.

I have not heard any of the publicans in my area, complain about losses due to smoking regulations, strangely enough quite the contrary,with both smokers and non smokers very happy with the new arrangements.


----------



## bob_bob

I'm in South Wales at the moment and the smoking impact was big, hit pubs hard. We still have some nice pubs but they are all a few miles out of town; I drink at one place in the Brecon Beacons which is lovely, but it costs me £30 in taxis so I only go once a month.

An example, my nephew was tempted to buy the lease on a pub near him in 2007 but he backed out. The lease was £275,000. That pub is now boarded up, went bump in October and the lease is available for £20,000 it was very much a smokers pub but had no back yard for the smokers.

While on the subject of pubs/bars etc, for anyone visiting Cardiff, I will say I went to Jamie Oliver's eatery on Friday and was very dissapointed with it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Bobbob


> What has changed in the UK is drinking at home. Beer in Tesco and Asda etc is dirt cheap, people stay in drinking and eating a home deliverd kebab with a mate or two a lot more these days, its all rather sad really.


Which is along the same lines as what I said here!!


> IMO the reduced number of clients in pubs in England is more due to the price of alcohol and the financial crisis than not being able to smoke.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> they do teach about the dangers alcohol, tobacco & all other sorts of drugs at school
> 
> my younger dd (11) has had lessons about alcohol & tobacco
> 
> my elder dd (nearly 15) has had lessons about the dangers of all sorts of drugs


My daughter has workshop kind of sessions about all that kind of thing once a term it seems, and they touch on it in PE and biology too. However before Christmas she was telling me about a 15 year old who was waiting outside the school gates at *break* time out of her head with drink, which I thought was very sad. Kids will be kids and they will always "dabble"


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> My daughter has workshop kind of sessions about all that kind of thing once a term it seems, and they touch on it in PE and biology too. However before Christmas she was telling me about a 15 year old who was waiting outside the school gates at *break* time out of her head with drink, which I thought was very sad. Kids will be kids and they will always "dabble"


it does happen - and I still can't get over some parents I know allowing their 11+ kids to go to botellones

a girl who was in my dd's class year before last (she's been held back now, surprise surprise) got suspended for abusing the teachers - she was pi$$ed!! She'd been drinking during patio, too!!

she was 12/13 at the time...........


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> it does happen - and I still can't get over some parents I know allowing their 11+ kids to go to botellones
> 
> a girl who was in my dd's class year before last (she's been held back now, surprise surprise) got suspended for abusing the teachers - she was pi$$ed!! She'd been drinking during patio, too!!
> 
> she was 12/13 at the time...........


At my daughters last school (ESO) I kid you not, they had an ashtray/smoking station in their playground. Also it was not unheard of for the PE teacher to lag behind with some of the students during cross country runs and share a ciggie!

Its not a good habit, its not something I want my children to take up, but rightly or wrongly, I worry far more about alcohol addiction - probably because my father and most of his siblings were alcoholics and to me, that was far more destructive, both physically, socially and healthwise. The smokers in his family lived til at least their 80s (auntie Ena was 98 and smoked from the age of 9), the drinkers were all gone before they were 60, apart from my dad who lasted til he was 70 and didnt have a healthy or happy life and did his best to make sure that those around him had a hard time too - hence I have a strange relationship with alcohol (I dislike it and rarely drink).

BTW, no, I repeat I'm not condoning smoking, but I sometimes wonder why they dont put alcohol in the same category

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

littleredrooster said:


> Apart from cheaper drinks many more ppl stay at home because of the huge variety of home entertainment they now have at their finger tips.
> The tightening up of drink driving enforcement has also played a part.
> 
> Plenty of traditional pubs are still doing well and not necessarily by providing exotic meals, though most of them do provide food of various standards.
> The better ones are now often centres for 101 social activities, involving everyone from OAPs to kids, with always something going on.
> 
> The dog end of the market, pubs, those where you only wipe your feet on the way out, and cater just for boozers and drunks are thankfully going downhill.
> 
> I have not heard any of the publicans in my area, complain about losses due to smoking regulations, strangely enough quite the contrary,with both smokers and non smokers very happy with the new arrangements.


Totally agree with the 1st paragraph rooster, and I think Spain's heading that way with home cinema, Wii and Nintendo sales on the rise. All we need is a little more enforcement of the drink driving regulations here.
The conclusion that smoking ban = closure of pubs/ bars is just too narrow. There are many other factors, some mentioned in this thread, that need to be factored in
"The dog end of the market" made me smile 
PS What are 101 activities???


----------



## bob_bob

One thing the cheap booze at home has done (as well as bankrupt a lot of pubs) is fuel binge drinking, youngsters now will not only have a skinfull of booze at home they then go drinking in town. Alcohol related injury has shot up in the last few years.
Hundreds of Pubs Close Due to Smoking Ban


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## MaidenScotland

bob_bob said:


> One thing the cheap booze at home has done (as well as bankrupt a lot of pubs) is fuel binge drinking, youngsters now will not only have a skinfull of booze at home they then go drinking in town. Alcohol related injury has shot up in the last few years.
> Hundreds of Pubs Close Due to Smoking Ban




A recent report has claimed that around 700 pubs in Scotland have been forced to close since the smoking ban was introduced on the 26th of March in 2006....

700 in 4 years and I bet it was no all due to the smoking ban.

I had a bar in Scotland in a small village of 125 and the numbers using the bar was dropping off over the years.

My village was made up of about 30 locals and the rest were people who had sold houses down south and moved up to buy a cheaper property and live off their pension and and the remains of the profit on their house sale.
The usual scenario was that for the first year they threw themselves into village life and used the bar every night. After a year the novelty wears off and they just stopped going out for various reasons but a lot of it was that their pensions just didn't go as far as they thought it would. Living is Scotland gives you higher fuel bills. You need a car to live in my home village although there is a public transport system it takes 1 hour to go to the nearest town. Everything is more expensive when it has to be transported to a peninsular. Y It is dark early and it is too easy to stay indoors once you are home. Mobile phones made a big impact.. I had a public phone in the bar and of course it was set high and the profit made from this used to cover my telephone bills for the bar and hotel plus a few pound in my pocket, all gone when mobile phones were the norm. I made plenty of money in the summer from yachts and day trippers but winter just ate up all my profits. The heating and lights are on for an average of 15 hours a day regardless of custom. 

Then there was the new licensing laws that have been brought in.
Now instead of just having a licence to sell alcohol you must get your building licensed.
If you want to leave your bar for the night and go out your member of staff must have a personal licence... more running costs.


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## Alcalaina

People used to go the pub to meet their mates, find out all the gossip and put the world to rights.

These days we do it on forums ...


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> People used to go the pub to meet their mates, find out all the gossip and put the world to rights.
> 
> These days we do it on forums ...


AND we go to the lovely smoke-free bar:


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> AND we go to the lovely smoke-free bar:


...... but you dont cos you're on here lol!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> ...... but you dont cos you're on here lol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


not ALL the time



it just seems that way................................................


----------



## bob_bob

The non smokers don't fufill the promises of 'I'll be down the pub more'. IMHO the landlord should have had the option to choose smoking or non smoking. As an ex smoker it makes no difference to me other than I don't like drinking in an empty pub because friends who smoke no stay home for a *** and a pint.

That said I don't allow smoking in my main house, I've a rather nice conservatory fitted with an Xpelair fan at each end so visitors who smoke can smoke there or when we get warm weather we sit in the garden, beats sitting on my own down the pub.

I've bookmarked this thread and will leave it for now but come back in time to see if any changes have happened in bars in Spain.


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## jimenato

I've heard a rumour that smoking is not allowed in our village plaza as there is a children's playground in the middle. The ban apparently also applies to the terraces of the three bars on the plaza so you can't smoke inside or outside those bars.


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## jojo

Its ok, she's outside!

Rumour has it this is what I'll look like in a few years time 


Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

jimenato said:


> I've heard a rumour that smoking is not allowed in our village plaza as there is a children's playground in the middle. The ban apparently also applies to the terraces of the three bars on the plaza so you can't smoke inside or outside those bars.




Rumours spread more quickly than measles


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Its ok, she's outside!
> 
> Rumour has it this is what I'll look like in a few years time
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

I went in a ba5r this morning & they were all sat around a table by one of those patio- heaters. What an utter waste of energy they are ! Talk about climate change & they can still sell things that are trying to heat the world. :nono:


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## christykelly

it has worked in ireland, i smoke and have no problem going outside, i was in spain over christmas and sometimes the smoke was watering my eyes, in a few months people will be saying how good it is. the best thing when you go a resterant and the food taste of food. some people will stay at home but the culture in spain is diff, its more economic to go out


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## Alcalaina

Results of an opinion poll in Spain - 15% of respondents said they would use bars less now, and 10% said they would use them more. Two-thirds of respondents support the ban.

El 85% de los españoles irá de bares tanto como antes de la ley antitabaco · ELPAÍS.com


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I've heard a rumour that smoking is not allowed in our village plaza as there is a children's playground in the middle. The ban apparently also applies to the terraces of the three bars on the plaza so you can't smoke inside or outside those bars.


Jimenato, how's it going in your bar/ town/ plaza?
Is any one having problems?
Are the police needed?


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Jimenato, how's it going in your bar/ town/ plaza?
> Is any one having problems?
> Are the police needed?


People are complying with the ban and it doesn't seem to be causing any problems. I went to a friend's restaurant on the square last night, he hasn't heard that he can't allow smoking on his terrace and he is going to allow it unless told otherwise. I walked past the two other bars on the square at half time in the Real Madrid match and there were ten or so people outside smoking. I think the "ban" on the square, if true, will be impossible to enforce.

I haven't opened my terrace roof yet but I will when the weather is a bit better. My customers seem happy enough popping out into the road for a smoke. I put a sand bucket out there the other night for butts. It got nicked.


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## christykelly

jimenato said:


> People are complying with the ban and it doesn't seem to be causing any problems. I went to a friend's restaurant on the square last night, he hasn't heard that he can't allow smoking on his terrace and he is going to allow it unless told otherwise. I walked past the two other bars on the square at half time in the Real Madrid match and there were ten or so people outside smoking. I think the "ban" on the square, if true, will be impossible to enforce.
> 
> I haven't opened my terrace roof yet but I will when the weather is a bit better. My customers seem happy enough popping out into the road for a smoke. I put a sand bucket out there the other night for butts. It got nicked.


its silly not being able to smoke on terrace, whats the logic in that?


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## gus-lopez

Petition started in Valencia for regional parliament to debate Spain's new smoking law

"Sources at the F.A.H. Andalucía Hostelry Federation quoted by Europa Press claim that some bars have lost up to 50% of their customers and that many will have to choose between closing or rebelling against the legislation".

Read more: Petition started in Valencia for regional parliament to debate Spain's new smoking law

At 8 this morning there was 1 person in the bar I used & 5 , inc. me , outside around the ridiculous patio-heater. When I went back at 11,30 there was 2 in the bar & 3 outside. At both times this bar always used to be a lot busier than this.


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## Pesky Wesky

christykelly said:


> its silly not being able to smoke on terrace, whats the logic in that?


Because there's a children's playground nearby.


----------



## jojo

A friend of mine I met this evening works in a large Spanish bar on the coast and she says that already she and her colleagues are sick of the smoking ban. they are having to rush about far more, she says she's having to walk miles carrying drinks and glasses back and forth. People are sitting outside, the staff are having to go in and out so much more, taking orders, serving drinks, emptying ashtrays and the bar inside is empty. She said to me tonight "where are all these non smokers?????? Cos they're not visiting our bar"!!!! The landlord cant afford to get more staff in to deal with this extra work, unlike in the summer when there are more customers! She says its the same with all the bars she knows - "WHERE ARE ALL THESE NON SMOKERS" cos the only time there are people in the bar is if they need to use the loo!

Jo xx


----------



## dunmovin

jojo said:


> A friend of mine I met this evening works in a large Spanish bar on the coast and she says that already she and her colleagues are sick of the smoking ban. they are having to rush about far more, she says she's having to walk miles carrying drinks and glasses back and forth. People are sitting outside, the staff are having to go in and out so much more, taking orders, serving drinks, emptying ashtrays and the bar inside is empty. She said to me tonight "where are all these non smokers?????? Cos they're not visiting our bar"!!!! The landlord cant afford to get more staff in to deal with this extra work, unlike in the summer when there are more customers! She says its the same with all the bars she knows - "WHERE ARE ALL THESE NON SMOKERS" cos the only time there are people in the bar is if they need to use the loo!
> 
> Jo xx


Several Spanish friends have told me that there is a growing feeling, that come the next election, Zappy and his lot will be out and the total ban will be reviewed Most of them are non smokers but object to the ban because of the manner it was implimented (I.E. "nobody asked us if we wanted this"). They mostly say a seperate area for smokers is an ideal solution. Some say that it was stupid to impose the ban when Spain is in the grip of the "crisis" and the damage it will do to the tourist trade will be huge


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> A friend of mine I met this evening works in a large Spanish bar on the coast and she says that already she and her colleagues are sick of the smoking ban. they are having to rush about far more, she says she's having to walk miles carrying drinks and glasses back and forth. People are sitting outside, the staff are having to go in and out so much more, taking orders, serving drinks, emptying ashtrays and the bar inside is empty. She said to me tonight "where are all these non smokers?????? Cos they're not visiting our bar"!!!! The landlord cant afford to get more staff in to deal with this extra work, unlike in the summer when there are more customers! She says its the same with all the bars she knows - "WHERE ARE ALL THESE NON SMOKERS" cos the only time there are people in the bar is if they need to use the loo!
> 
> Jo xx


they're in my local!!!

trade doesn't seem to have been affected there at all - the smokers just pop out for smoke or sit outside, and us non-smokers are nice & warm inside

most monday evenings this time of year it's just me & my students in there - last night we nearly ended up outside cos they were so busy inside!!


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## Donna773

I have always been dubious as to whether a smoking ban would ever be observed in Spain - and I already sense the beginnings of a revolt. I've been in the UK since just before Christmas and from what I am reading on this and other forums, I don't know what to expect when I get home to Guardamar. I have a perfect solution to the argument about walls and awnings etc. Just ban smoking in ALL public places, full stop. If it was restricted to consenting adults in private (i.e. behind locked and sealed doors), I reckon average life expectancy would go up by five years.


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## Guest

jojo said:


> A friend of mine I met this evening works in a large Spanish bar on the coast and she says that already she and her colleagues are sick of the smoking ban. they are having to rush about far more, she says she's having to walk miles carrying drinks and glasses back and forth. People are sitting outside, the staff are having to go in and out so much more, taking orders, serving drinks, emptying ashtrays and the bar inside is empty. She said to me tonight "where are all these non smokers?????? Cos they're not visiting our bar"!!!! The landlord cant afford to get more staff in to deal with this extra work, unlike in the summer when there are more customers! She says its the same with all the bars she knows - "WHERE ARE ALL THESE NON SMOKERS" cos the only time there are people in the bar is if they need to use the loo!
> 
> Jo xx



It's great for the post-Christmas "project bikini." I'll trade her. Goes with the job. Been there, done that, miss it!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Donna773 said:


> I have always been dubious as to whether a smoking ban would ever be observed in Spain - and I already sense the beginnings of a revolt. I've been in the UK since just before Christmas and from what I am reading on this and other forums, I don't know what to expect when I get home to Guardamar. I have a perfect solution to the argument about walls and awnings etc. Just ban smoking in ALL public places, full stop. If it was restricted to consenting adults in private (i.e. behind locked and sealed doors), I reckon average life expectancy would go up by five years.


It's here to stay, as long as it doesn't get involved in some kind of political bargaining plan - the "I'll give you my vote if you get rid of the smoking ban" type. But frankly I think there are far more important issues for politicians to be negotiating about.
There will always be a few people smoking in the "wrong" places, just because, but I think the ban in bars will stay...


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's here to stay, as long as it doesn't get involved in some kind of political bargaining plan - the "I'll give you my vote if you get rid of the smoking ban" type. But frankly I think there are far more important issues for politicians to be negotiating about.
> There will always be a few people smoking in the "wrong" places, just because, but I think the ban in bars will stay...


do you mean you HOPE it's here to stay? and it is quite an important issue to the the bar and cafe owners' , whose livelyhood depends on people walking in the door. It is quite an important issue to people who their freedom of choice being erroded.

It's not "all done and dusted". Also a growing number of people think Zappy "caved in" when the EU said that if Spain did not comply with the wishes of Brussels, a whole lot of EU funding would vanish and that makes them angry.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> do you mean you HOPE it's here to stay? and it is quite an important issue to the the bar and cafe owners' , whose livelyhood depends on people walking in the door. It is quite an important issue to people who their freedom of choice being erroded.
> 
> It's not "all done and dusted". Also a growing number of people think Zappy "caved in" when the EU said that if Spain did not comply with the wishes of Brussels, a whole lot of EU funding would vanish and that makes them angry.


No, I didn't mean that I hope it's here to stay (although of course I do) 

I was saying that IMO it's in and it's not going out unless it's used as political negotiation


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## Pesky Wesky

PS somewhere else we were talking about reasons for bars closing. Probably a smoking ban will influence this, but so do rising costs, better home entertainment and I don't know if you are aware, but there is a crisis and people just don't have the money to go out as they did. 
ALL of these factors, plus a good few more effect business, not only Pepe and his cigarito.


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## gus-lopez

Since the ban came in I have noticed a huge drop in customers in all the bars I visit. Regardless of the crisis, which wasn't affecting the bars & restaurants much here before, now this new law is . The on I use all the time in the week has gone from being full to a straggle of customers & they are outside. On saturdays , where we have breakfast on the way to Águilas, which is always full of men has turned into a ghost town. Sundays is the same, you'd get families in their & abuelos practicing there singing ( & good voices too ! ) When I asked where everyone was last week I was told , " They won't come , even the non-smokers. They are protesting about how it was brought in . " Here it is not a tourist area & all bars & restaurants are being badly affected by the ban.In the town centre the small bars with no outside space have seen trade drop to near zero. The one thing I have found since living here is that once the spaniards say that they arenot doing something , they stick to it. Unfortunately the bars are suffering from this , plus having to pay out additional expenses in the way of patio-heaters , additional tv's for outside plus as Jo says all the additional work for the staff ! 
Whereas before, people would stay longer in the bars , when inside, & buy more , now if they do go in it's one drink ,standing outside,then they are gone.


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## jimenato

I'll pop out for a tostada in a minute to my usual smoky bar ans see for myself. Don't forget it's January as well - I was told to expect a big downturn after the new year anyway - it hasn't happened yet.


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## gus-lopez

I'll be out later , once I've finished repairing my car.


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## jimenato

Well I managed a couple of bars this morning - both quiet - but I don't know how busy they would have been pre-ban. 

In our village, some bars have terraces or pavement space and so can have toldos and chairs and tables - I feel these will be affected little by the ban. 

Others have no pavement space - it would be foolish to expect that they will not be affected at all - the question is to what degree. I spoke to the owner of one of these today - he wasn't concerned and said business has not been affected much.


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## Alcalaina

dunmovin said:


> do you mean you HOPE it's here to stay? and it is quite an important issue to the the bar and cafe owners' , whose livelyhood depends on people walking in the door. It is quite an important issue to people who their freedom of choice being erroded.
> 
> It's not "all done and dusted". Also a growing number of people think Zappy "caved in" when the EU said that if Spain did not comply with the wishes of Brussels, a whole lot of EU funding would vanish and that makes them angry.


We did a "tapas crawl" in Seville earlier this week and it was wonderful to actually go inside and sit at the bar without all the smoke. 

Yes, a lot of people are angry with ZP caving in to Brussels and the IMF but that's because he introduced austerity measures like the public sector pay cuts. He tried to avoid doing this for a long time but didn't really have much choice in the end. 

The smoking ban is supported by 70% of Spanish people, it was in the PSOE manifesto and didn't come from the European parliament.


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> We did a "tapas crawl" in Seville earlier this week and it was wonderful to actually go inside and sit at the bar without all the smoke.
> 
> Yes, a lot of people are angry with ZP caving in to Brussels and the IMF but that's because he introduced austerity measures like the public sector pay cuts. He tried to avoid doing this for a long time but didn't really have much choice in the end.
> 
> The smoking ban is supported by 70% of Spanish people, it was in the PSOE manifesto and didn't come from the European parliament.


So was 7 day a week schooling in their 1st term, but that's never appeared !


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## gus-lopez

Well I got out eventually but the usual bar was dead. What is noticeable is the old boys who used to sit there drinking brandy & smoking every afternoon , & spending a fortune , have not been seen since the law came in. I asked was it quieter than normal & the girl said "yes , & it's even worse in the mornings !" I knew that already.


----------



## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> Well I got out eventually but the usual bar was dead. What is noticeable is the old boys who used to sit there drinking brandy & smoking every afternoon , & spending a fortune , have not been seen since the law came in. I asked was it quieter than normal & the girl said "yes , & it's even worse in the mornings !" I knew that already.


Perhaps there are just too many bars in Spain  Not joking, and not complaining, but the number of bars in spain (especially in cities) is quiet staggering. Before the ban was really on the horizon I remember visiting bars and having a coffee or a beer. Some of them were so depressingly empty, a bored camarero, the TV talking to itself. It surprised me how they could be profitable. Now good bars, and there are many, are another thing.

Anyway to get a feel for the impact I think we will have to wait awhile. As already said after the festivities and with economic tightening throughout Spain there is bound to be a seasonal impact. Even I gave up the beer after kings and so far so good but the bar will eventually draw me in  Just like the old boys will slowly slide back onto their stools. The demon drink will have its way. Yes a few bars will close but that's life (hopefully the ones with the disgusting loos ).


----------



## nigele2

Talking of bars in Asturias there is one behind my flat. Small, bit dingy, often without draft (you get the feeling they haven't paid the brewery ). It's called 'Domingos' Guess which day it is closed on  Always makes me smile. But seriously it would be no loss to the neighbourhood or the owners.

Despite being off the beaten track there are 5 others within a 3-iron. Yeah used to be a 7-iron but my golfs not what it used to be


----------



## Pesky Wesky

> nigele2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps there are just too many bars in Spain  Not joking, and not complaining, but the number of bars in spain (especially in cities) is quiet staggering. Before the ban was really on the horizon I remember visiting bars and having a coffee or a beer. Some of them were so depressingly empty, a bored camarero, the TV talking to itself. It surprised me how they could be profitable. Now good bars, and there are many, are another thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Yess! I'm sure we have all seen bars (and restaurants) like this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway to get a feel for the impact I think we will have to wait awhile. As already said after the festivities and with economic tightening throughout Spain there is bound to be a seasonal impact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yessss!! 2+2 does NOT equal 5
> The smoking ban alone is not/ will not be the only reason bars close.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even I gave up the beer after kings and so far so good but the bar will eventually draw me in
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good Grief Nigel! Go steady!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes a few bars will close but that's life (hopefully the ones with the disgusting loos ).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

***


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Talking of bars in Asturias there is one behind my flat. Small, bit dingy, often without draft (you get the feeling they haven't paid the brewery ). It's called 'Domingos' Guess which day it is closed on  Always makes me smile. But seriously it would be no loss to the neighbourhood or the owners.
> 
> Despite being off the beaten track there are 5 others within a 3-iron. Yeah used to be a 7-iron but my golfs not what it used to be


We have a Dominguitos here which is closed on Sundays too. But it is the hub of the village, used by the Policia Local and all the Ayuntamiento staff. It is SO much nicer without ***-ends all over the floor ...

I think I´m right in saying Spain has the highest number of bars per capita in Europe? And they they are mainly privately owned rather than tenanted, so you don´t have the problem of high rents that caused the demise of so many English tenant landlords. Or ridiculous targets imposed on pub managers by the vwenture capitalists who bought up all the small breweries and turned the tied houses into catering chains.

There are many reasons for the demise of the English pub but I think the smoking ban was just one of the final straws. I don´t think many bars will close here because people are far too sociable.


----------



## dunmovin

Alcalaina said:


> We have a Dominguitos here which is closed on Sundays too. But it is the hub of the village, used by the Policia Local and all the Ayuntamiento staff. It is SO much nicer without ***-ends all over the floor ...
> 
> I think I´m right in saying Spain has the highest number of bars per capita in Europe? And they they are mainly privately owned rather than tenanted, so you don´t have the problem of high rents that caused the demise of so many English tenant landlords. Or ridiculous targets imposed on pub managers by the vwenture capitalists who bought up all the small breweries and turned the tied houses into catering chains.
> 
> There are many reasons for the demise of the English pub but* I think the smoking ban was just one of the final straws. *I don´t think many bars will close here because people are far too sociable.


So you agree that the ban did cause people to lose their income? You want to extend this and cause more people to lose?

It might have been "the final straw", but that was 'the straw that broke the camel's back"... are you happy that this legislation might have deprived a family of their income? Are you happy that that the people they employed are facing unemployment *because you and like minded people don't care?*


----------



## dunmovin

Actually it's really quite offensive and oppressive that one lot of people should use law to oppress people who don't agree with their views. If the majority of people in the establishment choose to have a non-smoking enviroment,Then they should tell the owner and he /she can make an informed choice. (is that fair or not?)
To impose a "cover all ban" stinks like "we WILL TELL you how to behave."


----------



## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> So you agree that the ban did cause people to lose their income? You want to extend this and cause more people to lose?
> 
> It might have been "the final straw", but that was 'the straw that broke the camel's back"... are you happy that this legislation might have deprived a family of their income? Are you happy that that the people they employed are facing unemployment *because you and like minded people don't care?*



 

Oh come off it, dunmovin!! That is a pretty offensive remark

Read the posts! And read this...

It's not just the smoking ban.
The smoking ban is not solely responsible for the closure of bars.
There are other factors that contribute to bars closing.
Bars will close even if there isn't a smoking ban.

There should be one sentence among those that gets the message across.

I think it's terrible that bars have to close because of lack of business. I also think it's terrible that thousands of people die from smoke related disease. I also think it's terrible that non smokers may be effected by that smoke. And I happen to think it's appaling that before the smoking ban it was the non smokers who were inconvenienced.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it!


----------



## MacRov

Completely agree with Pesky Wesky.
It's also quite offensive that non-smokers should have to put up with being in toxic fume filled bars. I smoked for 10 years before I managed to quit and never really thought about the non smokers but now that I am 1 I started to hate going into pubs n clubs in Scotland before the ban was enforced here.
Yes some pubs did close as a result of it but I bet most of those were more than likely in trouble anyway. Yes it is sad to see people lose their livelyhoods but is that more important than those who choose not to smoke losing their lives due to passive smoking ?
You could argue that they didn't have to go into these bars etc but where else was there to go ? 
Now after a few years of it being in place in Scotland most bars are just as busy again as they were before because lets face it these same people still want to go to the pub whether they can smoke in it or not and I imagine the Spanish are no more pigheaded about having a drink in the pub than us Scots are.


----------



## xabiaxica

dunmovin said:


> Actually it's really quite offensive and oppressive that one lot of people should use law to oppress people who don't agree with their views. If the majority of people in the establishment choose to have a non-smoking enviroment,Then they should tell the owner and he /she can make an informed choice. (is that fair or not?)
> To impose a "cover all ban" *stinks* like "we WILL TELL you how to behave."


but not as much as my clothes used to when I left a bar


----------



## jimenato

For more dunmovin type bile try reading this article in the Olive Press and particularly the comments attached.

It likens the way smokers are being treated to the way Jews were treated in Nazi Germany.

I suspect that such extreme and absurd reactions are being caused by the desperation of nicotine addicts who are facing the prospect of being deprived of their drug.


----------



## Alcalaina

dunmovin said:


> So you agree that the ban did cause people to lose their income? You want to extend this and cause more people to lose?
> 
> It might have been "the final straw", but that was 'the straw that broke the camel's back"... are you happy that this legislation might have deprived a family of their income? Are you happy that that the people they employed are facing unemployment *because you and like minded people don't care?*


Risk of lung cancer vs risk of unemployment? Bit of a no-brainer I´d say.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Risk of lung cancer vs risk of unemployment? Bit of a no-brainer I´d say.



Depends on the odds and the percentage risk factors tho!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> Risk of lung cancer vs risk of unemployment? Bit of a no-brainer I´d say.


Yes, take the job .


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, take the job .


Seriously?

A friend of mine died 2 years ago on the 28th of December from lung cancer.

He had a job.

He left a widow in her early 40's with two children to bring up. She works in Carrefour on the fish counter.

I reckon she'd rather have Paco around than his job.


----------



## gus-lopez

It's all about power, government control , that's all. The EU wants a superstate controlled by them through respective governments. Why is it not equal ? Why can they smoke in their parliaments ? Do as I say not as I do comes to mind. Sorry it doesn't work that way . The Uk's already gone down that route taking the easy option when there's a gun outrage by banning everyone from owning a gun which has done nothing to improve the situation . Banning knives in the street & making criminals of honest working people who get caught up in the shambles whilst it's done nothing to prevent knife crime. Cctv watching everybody , except that a large % aren't watched by anybody & 50% don't record. money laundering regulations, the list is endless . It's easier to penalise the vast majority under the guise of 'protecting' the population than it is to do the own jobs properly & catch the criminals.
The choice is the owners of the bars & restaurants,no one elses, smoking or non-smoking & properly enforced.


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Oh come off it, dunmovin!! That is a pretty offensive remark
> 
> Read the posts! And read this...
> 
> It's not just the smoking ban.
> The smoking ban is not solely responsible for the closure of bars.
> There are other factors that contribute to bars closing.
> Bars will close even if there isn't a smoking ban.
> 
> There should be one sentence among those that gets the message across.
> 
> I think it's terrible that bars have to close because of lack of business. I also think it's terrible that thousands of people die from smoke related disease. I also think it's terrible that non smokers may be effected by that smoke. And I happen to think it's appaling that before the smoking ban it was the non smokers who were inconvenienced.
> 
> So put that in your pipe and smoke it!


If you choose to take the remark as offensive, then it's probably true. Prior to the ban, YOU had a choice not frequent places that allowed smoking. Now the ban is in place, that choice has been taken away from those that do wish to have a smoke along with their drink. 

The downturn in trade that some bars and cafes will suffer just might be enough to cause their demise. But do supporters of the ban feel any guilt that they will have cost some people their jobs? " No...it's for the greater good and those businesses were probably on a shaky ground anyway" but and it is a valid point that the ban might just be enough to close them down.

While all of you are pleased with the ban, did any of you ever ask the bar owner if he/she would consider having a smoke free area? The answer to that is almost certainly no.

Now the bar owners have no choice.

Jimenato.... just because I don't agree with you doesn't make my opinions "bile" we just stand on different sides of the discussion.

Alcalaina... the choice is theirs to work in that enviroment or not.


----------



## Caz.I

gus-lopez said:


> It's all about power, government control , that's all. The EU wants a superstate controlled by them through respective governments. Why is it not equal ? Why can they smoke in their parliaments ? Do as I say not as I do comes to mind. Sorry it doesn't work that way . The Uk's already gone down that route taking the easy option when there's a gun outrage by banning everyone from owning a gun which has done nothing to improve the situation . Banning knives in the street & making criminals of honest working people who get caught up in the shambles whilst it's done nothing to prevent knife crime. Cctv watching everybody , except that a large % aren't watched by anybody & 50% don't record. money laundering regulations, the list is endless . It's easier to penalise the vast majority under the guise of 'protecting' the population than it is to do the own jobs properly & catch the criminals.
> The choice is the owners of the bars & restaurants,no one elses, smoking or non-smoking & properly enforced.


No, it is about health. As with all health and safety legislation, or food hygiene regulations, if premises are open to the public, private owners do not have the right to decide whether or not they should uphold the regulations or not, and nor should they. It has to be adhered to throughout the country, otherwise there would be no point in having any health and safety or hygiene regulations as the public would not be protected where they were at risk.

Plus, I am pretty certain if there was no real health risk, you wouldn't have such extreme no smoking legislation in somewhere like the US. They know that if it comes down to a lawsuit, the chances are the owners would lose, as the health risk can be proved according to current scientific evidence. This is why, despite being very hot on personal liberties there, no one would risk being sued as they could prove that it endangered other people.


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> Seriously?
> 
> A friend of mine died 2 years ago on the 28th of December from lung cancer.
> 
> He had a job.
> 
> He left a widow in her early 40's with two children to bring up. She works in Carrefour on the fish counter.
> 
> I reckon she'd rather have Paco around than his job.


With no intended disrespect to your friend, can you say, without a doubt that her husband died because of smoking?

Some years ago, a colleague of mine died from lung cancer. He never smoked, his office was smoke free and he led what most people would call a "healthy" lifestyle.


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Seriously?
> 
> A friend of mine died 2 years ago on the 28th of December from lung cancer.
> 
> He had a job.
> 
> He left a widow in her early 40's with two children to bring up. She works in Carrefour on the fish counter.
> 
> I reckon she'd rather have Paco around than his job.


Sorry to hear about your friend . My brothers wife died on 12th December from lung cancer.
Yes I was serious, during my working life as an engineer I had to work with all sorts of potentially poisonous materials & regardless of the much improved H & S regulations it's nearly impossible to remove the risk of damaging carcinogenic fumes completely when conducting repairs & you just have to make the best of it. Ther's nothing I'd turn down , that I can think of ,regardless of the risk


----------



## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> If you choose to take the remark as offensive, then it's probably true. Prior to the ban, YOU had a choice not frequent places that allowed smoking. Now the ban is in place, that choice has been taken away from those that do wish to have a smoke along with their drink.
> 
> The downturn in trade that some bars and cafes will suffer just might be enough to cause their demise. But do supporters of the ban feel any guilt that they will have cost some people their jobs? " No...it's for the greater good and those businesses were probably on a shaky ground anyway" but and it is a valid point that the ban might just be enough to close them down.
> 
> While all of you are pleased with the ban, did any of you ever ask the bar owner if he/she would consider having a smoke free area? The answer to that is almost certainly no. Smoke free areas are crap. The smoke and smell always drifts in and they were more bother than they were worth, which is why they were unsuccessful
> 
> Now the bar owners have no choice. Agree, and also agree that it's not a good time to be a bar owner for what ever reason, but times change. There used to be gin palaces and opium parlours in London for goodness sakes. Children used to work in mines and factories. Just imagine arguing against that ban. Poor factory owners had to get more expensive labour??? I concede it's not a good time to be a bar owner.
> 
> Jimenato.... just because I don't agree with you doesn't make my opinions "bile" we just stand on different sides of the discussion. Agree, but you can be pretty agressive yourself!
> 
> Alcalaina... the choice is theirs to work in that enviroment or not.
> That's a very weak argument, especially given the current situation


I have a problem understanding why you think it's the smokers who should have priority over the non smokers.

I think we all have the right to breathe non smoke filled air. IMO if smokers want to fill the air and their lungs with smoke, they are the ones who are different, and they are the ones who should move, do things differently, pay fines etc.

It has been said many times that before the ban non smokers had the choice to go to non smoking bars, but there weren't any. Now the smokers have exactly the same choice ie nowhere, and they don't like it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Sorry to hear about your friend . My brothers wife died on 12th December from lung cancer.
> Yes I was serious, during my working life as an engineer I had to work with all sorts of potentially poisonous materials & regardless of the much improved H & S regulations it's nearly impossible to remove the risk of damaging carcinogenic fumes completely when conducting repairs & you just have to make the best of it. Ther's nothing I'd turn down , that I can think of ,regardless of the risk


Gus, you're talking about working with dangerous sustances. You're talking about survival.
I'm talking about a guy who died, died a horrible death, and actually paid money to die like that, because he did smth that he thought was pleasurable.
Yes all of you who are hung up on the smokers rights he chose to smoke, but I very, very much doubt he chose to leave his wife, family and friends hurt and destroyed.


----------



## gus-lopez

Caz.I said:


> No, it is about health. As with all health and safety legislation, or food hygiene regulations, if premises are open to the public, private owners do not have the right to decide whether or not they should uphold the regulations or not, and nor should they. It has to be adhered to throughout the country, otherwise there would be no point in having any health and safety or hygiene regulations as the public would not be protected where they were at risk.
> 
> Plus, I am pretty certain if there was no real health risk, you wouldn't have such extreme no smoking legislation in somewhere like the US. They know that if it comes down to a lawsuit, the chances are the owners would lose, as the health risk can be proved according to current scientific evidence. This is why, despite being very hot on personal liberties there, no one would risk being sued as they could prove that it endangered other people.


That's because in the US they are all mad. In some areas if you smoke , have smoked, know someone who smokes, or have been in premises where smoking is allowed you are banned from entering the certain business's , or refused jobs. There's no medical data to back up zealots like that. You only have to go online & look at the 'visa waver programme ' application forms to wonder about the mentality of whoever wrote it. Food hygiene & H & S are , in all honesty, matters of common sense. Unfortunately having worked in them for more than 20 years the vast majority of employees & management have a lack of it ,in abundance.


----------



## MaidenScotland

At the end of the day smoking has not been banned so the smokers can still smoke their lungs as much as they want, however they now have the choice that us non smokers have had for years when we went into a pub/restaurant/cafe put up with it or go somewhere else,


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> That's because in the US they are all mad.


Gus,be careful, you can upset a lot of people with remarks like that.
Anyway, generalisations like that distract from any argument you might want to plant


----------



## jojo

Luckily for smokers, we are in Spain and the weather means that its no great hardship to sit outside of bars and restaurants and enjoy a cigarette. Altho its still a bit chilly in the evenings!

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> With no intended disrespect to your friend, can you say, without a doubt that her husband died because of smoking?
> 
> Some years ago, a colleague of mine died from lung cancer. He never smoked, his office was smoke free and he led what most people would call a "healthy" lifestyle.


No, of course I can't, as you very well know. I don't know why there's a problem with the correct identification of the causes of the disease, but it's very difficult to understand why people don't accept that smoking kills and effects health. Governments are the first to cover up any dodgy practices that can cause disease if it so suits them. With all the income that tobacco brings why are governments trying to stop people smoking?
BECAUSE IT KILLS :der:

There are other causes of lung cancer though, and on the other hand smoking causes things other than lung cancer


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> *I have a problem understanding why you think it's the smokers who should have priority over the non smokers.*
> 
> I think we all have the right to breathe non smoke filled air. IMO if smokers want to fill the air and their lungs with smoke, they are the ones who are different, and they are the ones who should move, do things differently, pay fines etc.
> 
> It has been said many times that before the ban non smokers had the choice to go to non smoking bars, but there weren't any. Now the smokers have exactly the same choice ie nowhere, and they don't like it.


This is where you totally misunderstand my point. I never said that one has priority over the other. All along I have said it should be the choice of the bar/cafe owner to allow or disallow smoking in the place they own. After all, it is THEIR premises.

If previously, there were no smoke free bars in your area, then the questions have to be asked:

Did anyone ask the owner if they would, by choice , make it a smoke free place?
If yes and he/she declined, why do you keep going to their place?
If you didn't ask, then could it be, the lack of smoke free places is because you didn't ask?


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> The choice is the owners of the bars & restaurants,no one elses, smoking or non-smoking & properly enforced.


Now you're talking!! Only smokers allowed in smoking bars. Brilliant!:clap2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> This is where you totally misunderstand my point. I never said that one has priority over the other. All along I have said it should be the choice of the bar/cafe owner to allow or disallow smoking in the place they own. After all, it is THEIR premises.
> 
> If previously, there were no smoke free bars in your area, then the questions have to be asked:
> 
> Did anyone ask the owner if they would, by choice , make it a smoke free place?
> If yes and he/she declined, why do you keep going to their place?
> If you didn't ask, then could it be, the lack of smoke free places is because you didn't ask?


Dunmovin'
Ever get the feeling you're talking to someone who not only doesn't understand what you're saying , but also doesn't want to understand? 
You've already decided what I've done, who I've spoken to, my opinion, where I've been. You probably even know my mother's maiden name.
I'm not on the forum to argue with people, I really don't enjoy arguing. I like an exchange, a debate, commenting, advising, checking info, finding out about how others live, but I don't like arguing, so I'm out.


----------



## jimenato

dunmovin said:


> Jimenato.... just because I don't agree with you doesn't make my opinions "bile" we just stand on different sides of the discussion.


Sorry dunmovin - wrong, I am against the ban. But I am becoming increasingly vexed by the emotive vitriolic comments from the smoking lobby. I can only put it down to the frightening prospect of them being deprived of their fix.


----------



## Toxan

The health service in The Netherlands is giving patches away for free.


----------



## Caz.I

gus-lopez said:


> There's no medical data to back up zealots like that.
> I know there are companies who have taken an extreme approach but if there wasnt any medical data to back up the dangers of passive smoking, it would not be possible to use scientific evidence to prove in court that it can cause disease. There have been enough successful lawsuits to prove that, and the fear of further lawsuits has ensured very strict legislation.
> 
> Food hygiene & H & S are , in all honesty, matters of common sense. Unfortunately having worked in them for more than 20 years the vast majority of employees & management have a lack of it ,in abundance.
> Well, people choose to ignore common sense when it suits them. The point is that whether or not someone actually owns the premises or rents them, if they are providing a service to the public they will be subject to whatever the health and safety regulations are in that country, regardless of ownership.


Maybe the answer is the electric cigarette! I have heard that they can be smoked in bars even with the new legislation, so maybe that would keep everyone happy! Mind you, they might not be easy to get hold of, apparently sales in Spain have gone through the roof recently!


----------



## nigele2

dunmovin said:


> This is where you totally misunderstand my point. I never said that one has priority over the other. All along I have said it should be the choice of the bar/cafe owner to allow or disallow smoking in the place they own. After all, it is THEIR premises.
> 
> If previously, there were no smoke free bars in your area, then the questions have to be asked:
> 
> Did anyone ask the owner if they would, by choice , make it a smoke free place?
> If yes and he/she declined, why do you keep going to their place?
> If you didn't ask, then could it be, the lack of smoke free places is because you didn't ask?


Fair questions if the playing field was level - but it ain't.

Why were the questions not asked? Because bar owners are sponsored by the drink and tobacco companies. Largely they make money from addiction and without addiction they would need to remodel the business. Sadly your average bar owner would need a lot of support to do that.

I believe change is needed to protect future generations. I do not want the next generation conned by the lies of the drink and tobacco industry as I was.

But how to go about it:

Gradual change, consultation, education, flexibility, tolerance, ...... or the Mr Bean approach? (Franco would have smiled )


----------



## xabiaxica

Caz.I said:


> Maybe the answer is the electric cigarette! I have heard that they can be smoked in bars even with the new legislation, so maybe that would keep everyone happy! Mind you, they might not be easy to get hold of, apparently sales in Spain have gone through the roof recently!


a couple of my students are using them & think they are great - they have both cut down their smoking a lot already & one has even gone on a bit of a fitness kick

one of them has one which even looks like a real cigarette


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> But how to go about it:
> 
> Gradual change, consultation, education, flexibility, tolerance, ...... or the Mr Bean approach? (Franco would have smiled )


Come on Nigel, that's hardly fair! It's taken five years and there has been a _lot_ of consultation. The total ban was actually put back a year, following complaints from hostelry organisations.

In January 2006 they banned smoking in shops, offices, schools and hospitals. Bars and restaurants occupying more than 100sq m had eight months to set up a separate smoking area. Smaller premises could decide whether or not to be smoke-free (hardly any did).


----------



## gus-lopez

Caz.I said:


> Maybe the answer is the electric cigarette! I have heard that they can be smoked in bars even with the new legislation, so maybe that would keep everyone happy! Mind you, they might not be easy to get hold of, apparently sales in Spain have gone through the roof recently!


No , no bar / restaurant will allow them as you can't tell them from a real cigarette & the fear of being denounced anonomously has left bar owners telling people with them that they have to use the smoking area or go outside ! :rofl: The same applies to herbal cigarettes , which can be legally smoked in enclosed spaces under the new legislation. Quite a few people have brought this fact up on other forums where they have been asked or told ,that they have to leave the premises to use these devices.


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> No , no bar / restaurant will allow them as you can't tell them from a real cigarette & the fear of being denounced anonomously has left bar owners telling people with them that they have to use the smoking area or go outside ! :rofl: The same applies to herbal cigarettes , which can be legally smoked in enclosed spaces under the new legislation. Quite a few people have brought this fact up on other forums where they have been asked or told ,that they have to leave the premises to use these devices.


some of them you can tell - I've yet to see a real cigarette with a dayglo green tip!!!


my local allows them


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> some of them you can tell - I've yet to see a real cigarette with a dayglo green tip!!!
> 
> 
> my local allows them


So does mine, in fact the owner has one - it is plugged in on the wall next to the cash register. The first time I saw it I thought it was a dipole for a wireless router!


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> Come on Nigel, that's hardly fair! It's taken five years and there has been a _lot_ of consultation. The total ban was actually put back a year, following complaints from hostelry organisations.
> 
> In January 2006 they banned smoking in shops, offices, schools and hospitals. Bars and restaurants occupying more than 100sq m had eight months to set up a separate smoking area. Smaller premises could decide whether or not to be smoke-free (hardly any did).


Alcalaina there are many 30 year olds in Spain heavily addicted to cigs. They have a possible life span of 50 more years say. Never really been a smoker but I do believe many such people will need more than a few patches to quit.

Their addiction was created by a lying tobacco industry. I think they should be considered. And maybe by doing so the educational message could be reinforced. 

I'm sure I feel as happy as you that this con is being stopped but there are ways and means. IMHO enforcing your standards on other people doesn't work. It creates resentment, anger and aggression. 

ps: In the Italian press there is an article saying that 'legging it from the bar' without paying has tripled since having to go outside for a cig. Of course that could be in part the waiter pocketing and saying the client legged it. Beware Jimenato


----------



## jimenato

nigele2 said:


> ps: In the Italian press there is an article saying that 'legging it from the bar' without paying has tripled since having to go outside for a cig. Of course that could be in part the waiter pocketing and saying the client legged it. Beware Jimenato








.


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> So does mine, in fact the owner has one - it is plugged in on the wall next to the cash register. The first time I saw it I thought it was a dipole for a wireless router!


You learn something new every day ! I was wondering what that S in the blue box was under Rep Power & now I know.


----------



## bob_bob

Giving up smoking is extremely difficult. I gave up after serious problems with my lungs developed and was told 'smoke and die or stop and live', no alternatives just those two options. Even after seeing video of the insides of my lungs (not nice) I had an uphill struggle for six months or so. Sometimes the urge to smoke was so intense I would go and buy a pack of ten, chain smoke them and not smoke again for weeks. Slowly, but surely the cravings got less and less and I've been Marlboro free for ten months. Strange thing is, I sometimes dream of smoking a cigar! Very strange as I never smoked them. Will I ever smoke again? I would like to say no but in reality after a few glasses of plonk odds are I'll have a puff but if that only once or twice a year I'll be pleased with myself, better than the 30 a day I smoked for years.

So I see myself as a non smoker and totaly empathise with anyone kicking the habbit, its very hard but you can do it. Try and get a buddy who is giving up as well, someone you can talk to about it, confess when you have a crafty smoke, someone you can give support to and recieve support from.


----------



## christykelly

gus-lopez said:


> No , no bar / restaurant will allow them as you can't tell them from a real cigarette & the fear of being denounced anonomously has left bar owners telling people with them that they have to use the smoking area or go outside ! :rofl: The same applies to herbal cigarettes , which can be legally smoked in enclosed spaces under the new legislation. Quite a few people have brought this fact up on other forums where they have been asked or told ,that they have to leave the premises to use these devices.



You could be right, but iv seen on the news that a few bars are letting them, i can see were your coming from a dictance its hard to tell,


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> Dunmovin'
> Ever get the feeling you're talking to someone who not only doesn't understand what you're saying , but also doesn't want to understand?
> *You've already decided what I've done, who I've spoken to, my opinion, where I've been. You probably even know my mother's maiden name.*
> I'm not on the forum to argue with people, I really don't enjoy arguing. I like an exchange, a debate, commenting, advising, checking info, finding out about how others live, but I don't like arguing, so I'm out.


Whoah.... ... I'm not the cia or the kgb nor the stasi..... I know absolutely nothing about you, other than what you choose to post or disclose.So where is THIS coming from? That is a unfair swipe at MY personal integrity, SOMETHING I NEVER DONE TO YOU

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHERE YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR FALSE ACCUSATIONS


----------



## jimenato

bob_bob said:


> Giving up smoking is extremely difficult. I gave up after serious problems with my lungs developed and was told 'smoke and die or stop and live', no alternatives just those two options. Even after seeing video of the insides of my lungs (not nice) I had an uphill struggle for six months or so. Sometimes the urge to smoke was so intense I would go and buy a pack of ten, chain smoke them and not smoke again for weeks. Slowly, but surely the cravings got less and less and I've been Marlboro free for ten months. Strange thing is, I sometimes dream of smoking a cigar! Very strange as I never smoked them. Will I ever smoke again? I would like to say no but in reality after a few glasses of plonk odds are I'll have a puff but if that only once or twice a year I'll be pleased with myself, better than the 30 a day I smoked for years.
> 
> So I see myself as a non smoker and totaly empathise with anyone kicking the habbit, its very hard but you can do it. Try and get a buddy who is giving up as well, someone you can talk to about it, confess when you have a crafty smoke, someone you can give support to and recieve support from.


Well done bob_bob - I gave up about three years ago and you are right it is not easy - but it is possible. All the people who find it hard to quit should just look at people like me - weak willed and realise it can be done.


----------



## owdoggy

Remember what uncle Doggy said on the other "Smoking" thread........... nobody listens to me!........ [sob]



Doggy


----------



## Asian Spirit

*Time out---for a smoke?*



dunmovin said:


> This is where you totally misunderstand my point. I never said that one has priority over the other. All along I have said it should be the choice of the bar/cafe owner to allow or disallow smoking in the place they own. After all, it is THEIR premises.
> 
> If previously, there were no smoke free bars in your area, then the questions have to be asked:
> 
> Did anyone ask the owner if they would, by choice , make it a smoke free place?
> If yes and he/she declined, why do you keep going to their place?
> If you didn't ask, then could it be, the lack of smoke free places is because you didn't ask?


_Ok guys and gal's---TIME OUT. _
_This is an issue that I could not agree on either. Especially here in a forum._

_Lets change the topic and get back on track here:focus:..._

_Enough said--*I hope.* I really hate giving infractions to ANYONE!_


_Gene..._


----------



## bob_bob

The hospital ban is interesting. In the UK many psychiatric units still have a smoking room for patients (very well and expensively ventilated though) and because of the numbers of people who go outside for a smoke, staff and patients) ciggy bins by entrances/exits are now the norm at many hospitals, either that or people just throw nub ends on the floor.

One local hospital found that many staff were leaving the building when on break and sitting in their own cars for a smoke, the Trust has now fitted two smoking shelters for staff and patients as well as the bins outside the front doors.

It seems you can legislate against smoking but stopping folk is a whole new ball game.


----------



## gus-lopez

bob_bob said:


> The hospital ban is interesting. In the UK many psychiatric units still have a smoking room for patients (very well and expensively ventilated though) and because of the numbers of people who go outside for a smoke, staff and patients) ciggy bins by entrances/exits are now the norm at many hospitals, either that or people just throw nub ends on the floor.
> 
> One local hospital found that many staff were leaving the building when on break and sitting in their own cars for a smoke, the Trust has now fitted two smoking shelters for staff and patients as well as the bins outside the front doors.
> 
> It seems you can legislate against smoking but stopping folk is a whole new ball game.


Psychiatric hospitals are exempt both in spain & the Uk. Along with prisons, Uk parliament & the spanish assembly is the same. This allows all the criminals & the mentally unwell to carry on as normal while the honest & law -abiding can stand outside with no choice.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> Psychiatric hospitals are exempt both in spain & the Uk. Along with prisons, Uk parliament & the spanish assembly is the same. This allows all the criminals & the mentally unwell to carry on as normal while the honest & law -abiding can stand outside with no choice.


So the honest and law-abiding folks will live longer - what's the problem?


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> So the honest and law-abiding folks will live longer - what's the problem?


Hypocritical, do as I say not as I do.


----------



## owdoggy

Alcalaina said:


> So the honest and law-abiding folks will live longer - what's the problem?


I said this http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...pain/40508-smoking-ban-13.html#post279772back in April last year, will continue to say it & stand by every word.




Doggy


----------



## littleredrooster

Personally I would prefer not to be operated on by a drug addict who hasn't even got enough brains to give up the habit.


----------



## owdoggy

littleredrooster said:


> Personally I would prefer not to be operated on by a drug addict who hasn't even got enough brains to give up the habit.


That attitude would deprive you of one of the best neuro-surgeons in the UK.....but hey, your choice :yo:



Doggy


----------



## jojo

I'm just never going to see why smokers are considered drug addicts when drinkers, who regularly ingest mind altering substances are not. Lets face it, to drive a car you can only have one small drink or you're considered "over the limit" But thats ok because....... no one has ever bothered to look at how much higher the figures of mortality, illhealth and destruction (both mentally and physically) alcohol causes compared to the dreaded weed!............. Altho in the UK, now they've "done" the smoking scare, they are beginning to move on to drink! 

Jo xxx


----------



## bob_bob

Smoking is considered substance abuse along with alcohol these days. One problem with smoking is that although its a highly addictive habit the damage that may occur often takes years to become apparent so the addiction is pushed to one side and extra cash is pumped into help deal with drug and alcohol abuse which are far faster in becoming problematic for the individuals concerned.

My local NHS trust has one, yes just one nurse working as a smoking cessation specialist covering not just the mental health units but also four local (general) hospitals for both patients and staff who want to quit; I feel sorry for the guy.


----------



## Donna773

jojo said:


> I'm just never going to see why smokers are considered drug addicts when drinkers, who regularly ingest mind altering substances are not. Lets face it, to drive a car you can only have one small drink or you're considered "over the limit" But thats ok because....... no one has ever bothered to look at how much higher the figures of mortality, illhealth and destruction (both mentally and physically) alcohol causes compared to the dreaded weed!............. Altho in the UK, now they've "done" the smoking scare, they are beginning to move on to drink!
> 
> Jo xxx


Both smoking and ethanol, which is the type of alcohol in our boozy drinks, are a danger to the public. But although I would happily suffer passive smoking rather than the attentions of a drunken lout, the chances of alcohol being banned anywhere outside the Muslim world are remote. Don't worry, Jo - apart from the revenue aspect, boozing is part of Western culture and so deep-rooted that it will NEVER be banned. It's just a pity that the British tend to become more obnoxious than most when they've had a few beers.

_Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colourless liquid. It is a powerful psychoactive drug and one of the oldest recreational drugs. It is best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and thermometers. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol or spirits.
_
(Description from Wikipedia, not my blog - which is much more interesting!)


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## jimenato

jojo said:


> I'm just never going to see why smokers are considered drug addicts when drinkers, who regularly ingest mind altering substances are not. Lets face it, to drive a car you can only have one small drink or you're considered "over the limit" But thats ok because....... no one has ever bothered to look at how much higher the figures of mortality, illhealth and destruction (both mentally and physically) alcohol causes compared to the dreaded weed!............. Altho in the UK, now they've "done" the smoking scare, they are beginning to move on to drink!
> 
> Jo xxx


Both nicotine and alcohol are certainly drugs. Perhaps smokers are called drug addicts and drinkers are not because nicotine is extremely addictive - even more so than heroin. There are certainly problems associated with alcohol but smoking wins hands down as far as addiction goes.

You don't seriously think that 



> no one has ever bothered to look at how much higher the figures of mortality, illhealth and destruction (both mentally and physically) alcohol causes compared to the dreaded weed


do you?

You are coming over as someone who smokes but doesn't drink (just guessing...)


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## christykelly

jimenato said:


> Both nicotine and alcohol are certainly drugs. Perhaps smokers are called drug addicts and drinkers are not because nicotine is extremely addictive - even more so than heroin. There are certainly problems associated with alcohol but smoking wins hands down as far as addiction goes.
> 
> You don't seriously think that
> 
> 
> 
> do you?
> 
> You are coming over as someone who smokes but doesn't drink (just guessing...)


Wish i didn't start smoking, so much hassle. Their starting the drug testing in ireland, and cheakin after crash's if people were on any drugs so wont be stats for a while


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## dunmovin

for once... I found a bar owner, a decent bloke, who justs wants to make comfortable, life for him and his wife, and just wants to run a pub,without people telling what he should or should not do, got his licence to serve drinks outside, early enough. As a result, the other bars in the town, have to hastily fit in to a law that hey never wanted nor voted for. he has to work harder (ergo early retirement comes sooner), earns more, and his pub is "the Talk of the town". 

He still upholds the value of freedom He has to conform to the law, but his personal freedoms have been diminished.


Quietly... he still says.." I bought this place,years of hard work and saving. Expain to me why these people think they have a right to dictate what happens on my own property ...... I own it... worked hard to get money to buy it, now some "seeyounexttuesday" comes into MY place and DEMANDS me and MY customers, conform to The rules, rules that no one consulted the population on?


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## dunmovin

let's all be fair... in a true and fair society,we have the right to do what we want to, the only thing that we possess, our bodies, and if you, which is you,right choose not to be inthe vicinity, of those that choose to exceriseTHEIR right,that has to be your choice , as an individual. However, when a group of "like minded people" become a group, then a "movement"and somone throws in a "fact", proven or otherwise.


It comes down to the personal choice IF YOU chose to smoke, run risk and don't complain.


IF YOU dislike being in the company of smokers, DON'T be there and don't ban them....next time, it could be your personal choice being banned


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## gus-lopez

The Nhs figures in November 2010 stated that smoking & smoking related respiratory diseases cost the Nhs £1,5 billion a year. Yesterday ,or wednesday ,they stated that drink & drink related problems cost £13 billion a year.


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> Both nicotine and alcohol are certainly drugs. Perhaps smokers are called drug addicts and drinkers are not because nicotine is extremely addictive - even more so than heroin. There are certainly problems associated with alcohol but smoking wins hands down as far as addiction goes.
> 
> You are coming over as someone who smokes but doesn't drink (just guessing...)


I'm coming across as someone who's early life was not good (an understatement) due to an alcoholic father, a mother who "liked a drink", uncles and aunts who mostly died young due to alcohol, apart from one who lived to be 98 - she rarely drank - but she did smoke from the age of 9, so what am I supposed to deduce from that??? and I wont even mention the number of friends who have died slowly, painfully and young (under 40) who werent smokers, in fact I can only think of one who smoked and he had given up a good few years before he became ill! Oh, and as Gus has pointed out.....


gus-lopez said:


> The Nhs figures in November 2010 stated that smoking & smoking related respiratory diseases cost the Nhs £1,5 billion a year. Yesterday ,or wednesday ,they stated that drink & drink related problems cost £13 billion a year.


However, altho I like a cigarette and indeed the occasional drink, *my issue is with the constant eroding of freedom of choice and the constant banging on from those who think its ok to have a few drinks, but "piously" berate those who choose to smoke. *

Drinking should be seen just as socially unacceptable as smoking - or not! it is to me!

Jo xxx


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## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> The Nhs figures in November 2010 stated that smoking & smoking related respiratory diseases cost the Nhs £1,5 billion a year. Yesterday ,or wednesday ,they stated that drink & drink related problems cost £13 billion a year.


£3bn cost of alcohol to NHS every year - Telegraph



> £3bn cost of alcohol to NHS every year
> The NHS spends £3 billion a year treating alcohol-related sickness, according to new figures.


BBC NEWS | Health | Smoking disease costs NHS £5bn



> Smoking costs the NHS five times as much as previously thought, researchers have calculated.
> Treating disease directly caused by smoking produces medical bills of more than £5bn a year in the UK.
> In 2005, smoking accounted for almost one in five of all deaths and a significant amount of disability, the Oxford University team said.
> The British Heart Foundation who funded the research said tighter regulations were needed on the sale of tobacco.
> The figure of £5bn in 2005-06 equates to 5.5% of the entire NHS budget.
> Previous estimates have put the burden of smoking on the NHS at £1.4bn to £1.7bn, the researchers reported in Tobacco Control.


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## christykelly

jojo said:


> I'm coming across as someone who's early life was not good (an understatement) due to an alcoholic father, a mother who "liked a drink", uncles and aunts who mostly died young due to alcohol, apart from one who lived to be 98 - she rarely drank - but she did smoke from the age of 9, so what am I supposed to deduce from that??? and I wont even mention the number of friends who have died slowly, painfully and young (under 40) who werent smokers, in fact I can only think of one who smoked and he had given up a good few years before he became ill! Oh, and as Gus has pointed out.....
> 
> 
> However, altho I like a cigarette and indeed the occasional drink, *my issue is with the constant eroding of freedom of choice and the constant banging on from those who think its ok to have a few drinks, but "piously" berate those who choose to smoke. *
> 
> Drinking should be seen just as socially unacceptable as smoking - or not! it is to me!
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree but i dont want them to ban drinking, is it better to drink 20 drinks or 20 cigarettes a day? 

I come from a family who drink very heavy, i wish some of them smoked and didn't drink


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> £3bn cost of alcohol to NHS every year - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> BBC NEWS | Health | Smoking disease costs NHS £5bn


These facts and figures are meaningless, most smokers are drinkers and how are they deciding what constitutes a smoking or drinking related illness - its all just risk factors and correlation. The monetary numbers are not important, its not a competition. The fact is that smoking is addictive, smelly and bad for you, but not mind altering. Alcohol is also addictive, not quite as smelly, is mind altering and just as bad for you. Both are pointless past times and if you ban one in public places, then you should ban the other (but that wont happen luckily for you Jimento). I just think that it would be fair and correct to allow bars to make their own minds up and possibly have to apply for licences to allow them to be a smoking bar and to sell alcohol as in the UK!



jo xxx


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## jojo

christykelly said:


> I agree but i dont want them to ban drinking, is it better to drink 20 drinks or 20 cigarettes a day?
> 
> I come from a family who drink very heavy, i wish some of them smoked and didn't drink



I totally agree!

Jo xxx


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## casa99

jojo said:


> These facts and figures are meaningless, most smokers are drinkers and how are they deciding what constitutes a smoking or drinking related illness - its all just risk factors and correlation. The monetary numbers are not important, its not a competition. The fact is that smoking is addictive, smelly and bad for you, but not mind altering. Alcohol is also addictive, not quite as smelly, is mind altering and just as bad for you. Both are pointless past times and if you ban one in public places, then you should ban the other (but that wont happen luckily for you Jimento). I just think that it would be fair and correct to allow bars to make their own minds up and possibly have to apply for licences to allow them to be a smoking bar and to sell alcohol as in the UK!
> 
> 
> 
> jo xxx



I used to smoke myself , pipe, cigars and cigarettes then decided to give up some 30 years ago, but unlike some ex smokers it doesn`t bother me if people smoke or not , I have never found it a problem in the spanish bars apart from the inevitable smell of smoke on your clothes, so I think the bars should be allowed to apply for a licence to have smokers in there bar:clap2::clap2:


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## jimenato

dunmovin said:


> for once... I found a bar owner, a decent bloke, who justs wants to make comfortable, life for him and his wife, and just wants to run a pub,without people telling what he should or should not do, got his licence to serve drinks outside, early enough. As a result, the other bars in the town, have to hastily fit in to a law that hey never wanted nor voted for. he has to work harder (ergo early retirement comes sooner), earns more, and his pub is "the Talk of the town".
> 
> He still upholds the value of freedom He has to conform to the law, but his personal freedoms have been diminished.
> 
> 
> Quietly... he still says.." I bought this place,years of hard work and saving. Expain to me why these people think they have a right to dictate what happens on my own property ...... I own it... worked hard to get money to buy it, now some "seeyounexttuesday" comes into MY place and DEMANDS me and MY customers, conform to The rules, rules that no one consulted the population on?


I don't think that you really believe that a bar owner should be allowed to do anything just because he owns the bar. There are lots of things that bar owners are not allowed to do, smoking is just another of these. 

BTW your mate seems to have done quite well out of the smoking ban - he earns more and can retire earlier. Why on earth is he complaining?


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## jimenato

jojo said:


> These facts and figures are meaningless, most smokers are drinkers and how are they deciding what constitutes a smoking or drinking related illness - its all just risk factors and correlation. The monetary numbers are not important, its not a competition. The fact is that smoking is addictive, smelly and bad for you, but not mind altering. Alcohol is also addictive, not quite as smelly, is mind altering and just as bad for you. Both are pointless past times and if you ban one in public places, then you should ban the other (but that wont happen luckily for you Jimento). I just think that it would be fair and correct to allow bars to make their own minds up and possibly have to apply for licences to allow them to be a smoking bar and to sell alcohol as in the UK!
> 
> 
> 
> jo xxx


Obviously gus's unreferenced figures are even more meaningless then.

We've been through all this before but I'll say it again. Having one drink in public affects only the drinker and no-one else. Having even one cigarette in public adversely affects the people around the smoker. That is why smoking is banned in public but not alcohol. A case could be made for banning both totally but that is not what is being discussed here.


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## Donna773

jimenato said:


> Obviously gus's unreferenced figures are even more meaningless then.
> 
> We've been through all this before but I'll say it again. Having one drink in public affects only the drinker and no-one else. Having even one cigarette in public adversely affects the people around the smoker. That is why smoking is banned in public but not alcohol. A case could be made for banning both totally but that is not what is being discussed here.


Jimenato, I cannot agree more. The problem with drink comes with EXCESSIVE use - the problem with smoking is that it is ALWAYS harmful to both the user and those nearby. It also stinks a lot more than alcohol does!


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## christykelly

Donna773 said:


> Jimenato, I cannot agree more. The problem with drink comes with EXCESSIVE use - the problem with smoking is that it is ALWAYS harmful to both the user and those nearby. It also stinks a lot more than alcohol does!


its the stigma attached to drinking or smoking are different, how far will the goverments go?
what else will we not be allowed to do? 

Fair enough about people that dont smoke, but you would think they could come up with a better like exreame air con that sucks up the smoke.


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## littleredrooster

jojo said:


> I'm coming across as someone who's early life was not good (an understatement) due to an alcoholic father, a mother who "liked a drink", uncles and aunts who mostly died young due to alcohol, apart from one who lived to be 98 - she rarely drank - but she did smoke from the age of 9, so what am I supposed to deduce from that??? and I wont even mention the number of friends who have died slowly, painfully and young (under 40) who werent smokers, in fact I can only think of one who smoked and he had given up a good few years before he became ill! Oh, and as Gus has pointed out.....
> 
> 
> However, altho I like a cigarette and indeed the occasional drink, *my issue is with the constant eroding of freedom of choice and the constant banging on from those who think its ok to have a few drinks, but "piously" berate those who choose to smoke. *
> 
> Drinking should be seen just as socially unacceptable as smoking - or not! it is to me!
> 
> Jo xxx


Drinking is generally a social activity.
Smoking is much more of an anti-social activity.

Those that have what you describe as "a few drinks", generally do so on just a few occasions on a few days of the week.

Those that smoke are so desperately addicted that they usually do so from first thing on a morning to last thing at night, every day of the week, every week of the year. 
Very sad.

As regards no smoking in hospital grounds, surely this is another incentive or help factor for those who really wish to pack it in and take proper care of their health.

If they really want to help themselves as well as others, I'm sure they'll get over it in no time at all, move on and eventually be thankful for it.


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## jojo

littleredrooster said:


> Drinking is generally a social activity.
> Smoking is much more of an anti-social activity.
> 
> Those that have what you describe as "a few drinks", generally do so on just a few occasions on a few days of the week.
> 
> Those that smoke are so desperately addicted that they usually do so from first thing on a morning to last thing at night, every day of the week, every week of the year.
> Very sad.


But its not sad, I for one enjoy a cigarette, I have absolutely no intention of giving up! - Its enjoyable, just like those who enjoy a drink! I do it outside, I bother no one and I wont get bladdered if I have several! So its misplaced and unnecessary sympathy

Jo xxx


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## jojo

Anyway, for no other reason other than I think this subject has been "done to death" and has deviated from the original question, I'll close it. We can start another one in due course about whether the smoking ban in Spain has been adhered to!

Jo xxx


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