# nice work if you can get it - estate agent scam?



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

some people I know have been house hunting (so have I - but mine's all gone brilliantly)


they paid an agent a 'viewing fee' - I hadn't heard of that before til it was discussed here recently - just a couple of hundred I think (they're are being cagey about just HOW much)


so all well & good - they found a property they liked & stupidly gave the agent well over 1000 euros as a deposit/holding fee


less than a week later they had to pull out due to a change of circumstances which could have risked breaking the contract at a later date

better to pull out now, they thought, as they are responsible enough to not enter into an agreement which they might not be able to keep

yes, you've got it - the agent is refusing to give the money back!!!


is there anything they can do?


apparently nothing was signed

I've suggested denouncing them - going to the papers - or at the very least asking for the complaints book!


does anyone know if what this agent has done is legal?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Rather stupid that they paid money without signing!! In the UK theres a cooling off period to protect people from this sort of thing, is that an EU ruling????

However, maybe their agent has hit hard times and probably needs all the money they can get???

Funnily enough (well not funny!!!!!) I'm in a similar situation that I wont go into, so I'll be interested in any comments

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I suspect they will get nowhere, but they can try denuncia.
It was a viewing fee, and they went and viewed, so I guess although its a ridiculous fee to have to pay .... they got what they paid for


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> I suspect they will get nowhere, but they can try denuncia.
> It was a viewing fee, and they went and viewed, so I guess although its a ridiculous fee to have to pay .... they got what they paid for


from what I understand the viewing fee was just a couple of hundred - the 1000+ was a deposit of sorts


they are willing to lose the viewing fee - but not the deposit - that just doesn't seem right - especially since it really was just a few days later that they pulled out!!


it's not as if they are buying - just renting!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've always stuck up for agents, but however good they are, they really should play fair to all parties concerned, they'll get more business long term for that.

Moral of the story, do not part with money unless you have signed the contract! As for getting money back??? As I say, agents are struggling, so its going to be those who possibly cant afford to give money back, but I guess denuncia and signing their complaints book are the first steps.......

Jo xxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

When they paid the deposit, did they get anything at all back (a receipt of some sort) to show that they paid the 1000 euros? If they didnt it will be very difficult, I would imagine, to prove they paid it. I suspect the estate agent has already spent the money (this is not uncommon)! Yes I think denuncia and complaints book is the only way to go too.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Caz.I said:


> When they paid the deposit, did they get anything at all back (a receipt of some sort) to show that they paid the 1000 euros? If they didnt it will be very difficult, I would imagine, to prove they paid it. I suspect the estate agent has already spent the money (this is not uncommon)! Yes I think denuncia and complaints book is the only way to go too.



I suppose if they paid in cash then without a receipt they have no proof??? But surely no one is that stupid are they??? LOL Altho if they paid by a card thats proof enough???

I would recommend the denuncia and the " libro de reclamaciones" route! 

Jo xxx


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## pensionista (Sep 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I suppose if they paid in cash then without a receipt they have no proof??? But surely no one is that stupid are they??? LOL Altho if they paid by a card thats proof enough???
> 
> I would recommend the denuncia and the " libro de reclamaciones" route!
> 
> Jo xxx


When ever we have moved house in Spain we have always paid an initial deposit of , say, €1000. It has always been made clear to us that, should we pull out, then the deposit would be forfeited. Were they warned ? Do they have a receipt ? I doubt they will get their money back.
Just my opinion.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pensionista said:


> When ever we have moved house in Spain we have always paid an initial deposit of , say, €1000. It has always been made clear to us that, should we pull out, then the deposit would be forfeited. Were they warned ? Do they have a receipt ? I doubt they will get their money back.
> Just my opinion.



I find it hard that a reputable agent wouldnt give money back under those circumstances - even a percentage since nothing was lost! Maybe the agent they used isnt reputable?????

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

The term 'holding fee' means that the house will be taken off the letting market. The agent/owner could easily have lost another letting opportunity in the week that the property was off the market. The deposit was precisely to try to avoid this situation. 

I can't see why they should get it back unless I am missing something here?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jimenato said:


> The term 'holding fee' means that the house will be taken off the letting market. The agent/owner could easily have lost another letting opportunity in the week that the property was off the market. The deposit was precisely to try to avoid this situation.
> 
> I can't see why they should get it back unless I am missing something here?


In that case, the holding deposit should be the value of a weeks rental dont you think??? Unless of course they were renting the property for 4000€????? It sounds like a con to me and wouldnt trust the agent or recommend em!!

Jo xxx


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Such a shame but from my knowledge of laws they wouldn't be entitled to anything back legally. Usually a holding deposit is to offer the landlord and/or agent some kind of assurances in the event that the client pulls out. IE, the house is now off the books, i you change your mind you loose the deposit. That is the norm sadly. Shame they paid so much though. I would always advise people to get a receipt and ask for a copy of the T&C attached to the deposit. Without this you can kiss your money goodbye.

Jo, you mentioned the coolig off period. This applies in the UK to finance agreements and purchasing of goods or services by distance selling (for example if you buy something online without the chance to view it first). Even in the UK if you paid a holding depsoit on a house you have viewed you would loose that if you pulled out :-( Contrary to popular belief, even in the UK, if you buy something that you get to see and you have the chance to think about etc etc, you canot then change your mind. For example. if I buy a telly in Comet I cannot take it back in and ask for a refund because I have changed my mind (although most stores offer some kind of in house returnes peiod). If I bought it online or without seeing it I could (hence why Argos have to have a returns policy). If I apply for finance I have the rights to cancel it also... but to the best of my knowledge by law, if I view a house to rent, have the opportunity to think about it, and then tell the agent I want it and ask him to take it off the market he is entitled to keep any deposit I pay should I change my mind!

They could try complaints book/denouncing them etc but sadly I dont think it will get them very far!

Wish them good luck though!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, I agree with you, and how stupid to give them money upfront (what a shame that one has to be on ones guard over here). But I think if I were in this position I would not go anywhere near that agent again, nor would I trust them or recommend them! 

Jo xxx


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

jojo said:


> Well, I agree with you, and how stupid to give them money upfront (what a shame that one has to be on ones guard over here). But I think if I were in this position I would not go anywhere near that agent again, nor would I trust them or recommend them!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yep :clap2:.. 

Mahou is definately stronger than San Miguel!


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## sensationalfrog (Mar 31, 2010)

what is it that people dont understand about the word 'deposit',20 years ago,i used to have a pub that did weddings,some guy paid 50 quid to book the date in june,then got angry when he fell out with his missus,cancelled wedding and wanted his deposit back,he got a slap and didnt get his 50 quid,luckily we got rebooked at short notice
read a dictionary


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

to be fair, had the seller pulled out, I beleive the Spanish law says he/she has to rerturn the deposit plus an equal amount, but if the agent keeps the deposit.... that's a whole new can of worms....that's fraud Not for the buyer or the seller, but the agent. The agent is allowed to keep a "reasonable" fee, but not the whole sum. 

Buyer and seller should find out just where the money went


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> to be fair, had the seller pulled out, I beleive the Spanish law says he/she has to rerturn the deposit plus an equal amount, but if the agent keeps the deposit.... that's a whole new can of worms....that's fraud Not for the buyer or the seller, but the agent. The agent is allowed to keep a "reasonable" fee, but not the whole sum.
> 
> Buyer and seller should find out just where the money went


that's what I understood if you're buying - is it the same if you're renting though



I wonder who actually does have the money?


we've been assuming that the agent has pocketed it, rather than the owner

if the owner has it then that's one thing - but if the agent has it - then that is unreasonable IMO



oh this is getting complicated


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> that's what I understood if you're buying - is it the same if you're renting though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, from what I have heard about agents, it is quite normal for them to pocket the deposit. I doubt very much whether the owner would see any of it.
I think the main issue is communication, or lack of it, rather. Any reputable agent should clarify the terms of the deposit and whether it is returnable or not and, under what conditions etc. You cannot expect people to know this without actually explaining it to them. That is unreasonable.
At the same time, anyone giving money as a deposit to an agent should make sure they know if it will be returned if they cancel and get something in writing to back this up.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Caz.I said:


> Well, from what I have heard about agents, it is quite normal for them to pocket the deposit. I doubt very much whether the owner would see any of it.
> I think the main issue is communication, or lack of it, rather. Any reputable agent should clarify the terms of the deposit and whether it is returnable or not and, under what conditions etc. You cannot expect people to know this without actually explaining it to them. That is unreasonable.
> At the same time, anyone giving money as a deposit to an agent should make sure they know if it will be returned if they cancel and get something in writing to back this up.


I agree, agents should make their terms clear BUT as someone jsut said, people shoudl really know what deposit means. By handing over your cash the agent will take the property off his books. Therefore potentially another punter could walk in and want that house and he has to refuse. His income is from the comissions of renting that house. The deposit is his security that if the potential tenant does change their mind he is at least paid his fees.

I think it is perfectly normal to charge a deposit, I think the tenants should really understand what a deposit means and why it is charged, but I guess the agent should say "non refundable".

I often do conferences and public speaking, if it is a new client I charge a deposit. That deposit secures my time. If they cancel short notice I may have turned other work away so I keep the deposit and at least it minimises my losses. It is normal business practice and I think in this case the tenant was just unfortunate in not thinking why the agent wanted a "security" depsoit - to "secure" the property and "secure his interests" also!


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## pensionista (Sep 6, 2010)

steve_in_spain said:


> I agree, agents should make their terms clear BUT as someone jsut said, people shoudl really know what deposit means. By handing over your cash the agent will take the property off his books. Therefore potentially another punter could walk in and want that house and he has to refuse. His income is from the comissions of renting that house. The deposit is his security that if the potential tenant does change their mind he is at least paid his fees.
> 
> I think it is perfectly normal to charge a deposit, I think the tenants should really understand what a deposit means and why it is charged, but I guess the agent should say "non refundable".
> 
> I often do conferences and public speaking, if it is a new client I charge a deposit. That deposit secures my time. If they cancel short notice I may have turned other work away so I keep the deposit and at least it minimises my losses. It is normal business practice and I think in this case the tenant was just unfortunate in not thinking why the agent wanted a "security" depsoit - to "secure" the property and "secure his interests" also!


Quite agree with all of this. It seems to me to be quite naive in handing over €1000 and not enquire as to the consequences of cancellation, or as to what penalties may be incurred should the transaction not proceed.


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## malibu (Nov 8, 2010)

jimenato said:


> The term 'holding fee' means that the house will be taken off the letting market. The agent/owner could easily have lost another letting opportunity in the week that the property was off the market. The deposit was precisely to try to avoid this situation.
> 
> I can't see why they should get it back unless I am missing something here?


I have to agree, a deposit is generally non refundable no matter what circumstances they have found themselves in, what you have to remember is that the agent would have been acting on behalf of the owner so it isnt really the agents decision to refund the money in the first place.

Jut a thought!


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