# Spouse of French citizen planning a move but keeping US jobs (working remotely)



## kgalb2

First off this forum is a wealth of information that goes back many years. I cannot thank you enough for all of the open and helpful discussions that happen here.

My family and I are planning a potential move to France sometime towards the end of 2022. A little bit about our situation is probably helpful in answering the questions we have later on.


My wife is a French citizen and still holds a valid French passport. She moved to the US as a minor though so she has never worked in France and therefore I believe has never paid into the French social benefits system. She is currently working for a US company remotely with no French presence.
I am an American citizen working for a US company remotely as well (no French presence). I am planning to obtain a spousal visa that will allow me to live and work from France.
We have a son who is 18 months old and is registered in our Livre de Familie. We intend on getting him into a creche when we get to France.
We are planning to continue to work for our US-based companies remotely from France. This is the topic that probably has the most questions around it.

That is a bit of our background, but absolutely feel free to ask clarifying questions if it impacts any answers to the questions below.

Now onto the questions, we have gathered about our situation or confirmation of what we believe to be true.

*Question 1: Working remotely for American companies from France*
Our work situation is going to be tricky with France. We will both be able to live and work in France, but getting the French benefits will require us paying our French cotisations and of course our taxes. 

So what are our options here? It looks France doesn't have the notion of a contractor or self-employed that is for higher-income earners. Auto-entrepreneur from my reading is capped at 32k so you then have to roll into an actual business entity I think and charge your company VAT on top.

Is it the case that the best/simplest option is for our companies to form the "we have employees in France but no office" option? This will require them to pay the 40% cotisations as a company in France correct? Then we would be employees and would have to pay our 25% as well.

Another option we discovered was to go with an employer of record option, like Hire Employees in France: Employer of Record. They would effectively be our France employer and handle all of the taxes and payment into cotisations.

But is there another option that we may not be looking at?

*Question 2: Carte de sejour && carte vitale*
When we land in France I expect that I will have to register with the local prefecture, etc. I believe I will have to obtain a French social security number in order to be able to apply for a Carte Vitale. So after three months in the country, I believe I will have to go through the steps outlined here, Carte Vitale Résident hors Europe in order to get a social security number and thus get a Carte Vitale.

But how does that work for my wife and son? It is my understanding that she will have a three-month waiting period as well to prove she is residing in France. But then is her Carte Vitale good for our son as well?

For those three months, we will have gap health insurance that covers international/France. I believe there are some common health plans from folks on these forums. We might start with our current US health plan and purchase the international addon. 

When my spousal visa is coming to an end I believe that is when I kick off the process for a Carte de Sejour. But I am less clear on what this process looks like as it's not something you start until you are in the country. Any helpful guides on what that may look like would be greatly appreciated.

*Question 3: La creche*
We will be wanting to get our son into a creche as soon as we move to France. But what should we know now ahead of time or what can we start preparing for before we move? We know the creche has waiting lists and is very occupied (not much different here in the US to be honest), but must we show we have been in France for some extended period of time before we can apply, etc, etc?

*Question 4: Wife coming back to France*
As I explained above, my wife is a French citizen but she has never worked in France. So is she going to have all the paperwork and hoops that I will have to jump through as well? Or is her situation a bit simpler?

I know that is a novel of questions and I am probably missing a lot of important information, but any insights/advice/answers that folks can provide would be awesome.


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## Bevdeforges

Visa wise, you're set to go - though you will have to apply for a spouse visa (actually "vie privée et familiale") - and just be aware that you will need to go through the OFII meetings when you first arrive in France. Being the spouse of a French national means the visa application process should be pretty quick and easy (since you have your livret de famille already). So now, on to your questions:

#1. From your point of view, yes, having your employer sign up as a French employer with no French presence would be the ideal. But given the high rates of "cotisation" for the employer, you are likely to find your employers less than thrilled with the prospect. Firmes étrangères - Urssaf.fr for your employers for more information.



kgalb2 said:


> an employer of record option, like Hire Employees in France: Employer of Record. They would effectively be our France employer and handle all of the taxes and payment into cotisations.


I think you're referring here to what is called a "portage company" (at least by our British forum members). Just be aware that they will take a chunk of your gross pay as their commission for handling the payroll for you. As you mention, you might be able to set up a single person business (one for each of you if your employers are not the same) to do whatever it is you do - but in that case, all the paperwork is on your shoulders and, as you say, you will probably have to charge VAT to your US employers and you'd be responsible for all your cotisations, which run something over 40% of your gross salary, depending on what sort of business you set up and how your organize it. For that, you want to take a look at the CCI website for the departement where you will be living. CCI = Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie They could best be able to advise you what your options would be. 

#2 


kgalb2 said:


> When we land in France I expect that I will have to register with the local prefecture, etc. I believe I will have to obtain a French social security number in order to be able to apply for a Carte Vitale. So after three months in the country, I believe I will have to go through the steps outlined here, Carte Vitale Résident hors Europe in order to get a social security number and thus get a Carte Vitale.


That's not really how it works. As mentioned above, you will need a spouse visa and part of the requirements for that visa are that you show proof of health insurance. Basically, unless your employer registers as an employer without a French presence (in which case they will handle the preliminaries for getting your a sécu number), you may have to show private insurance for your first year in France. (You'll have to check with whatever portage company to see what they can do for you in this regard before your arrival.) But given that you will be "employed" on arrival, you shouldn't have to wait 3 months to apply to CPAM if your employer can do the set up for you. This will probably be the tricky part with your plans. 

#3
Depends on where you are moving to. Some towns have creches operated by the town or at least a halte garderie (though those may only be able to take your child for a limited number of days - or half days - a week). You'll need to talk to the local mairie to see what is available for your circumstances. (Someone else here on the forum may have more experience with child care issues and can advise.)

#4 - Given that your wife doesn't have a sécu number (normally issued when one is in high school in France). Normally she would wind up having her employer (i.e. first employer in France) apply for a sécu number for her - though the employer may send her to the appropriate office herself to file the necessary paperwork. A French employer normally has to report a new employee within a few days of their starting in their job - and that report is what triggers the issuance of a sécu number. After the number has been issued, then both of you will need to contact CPAM to apply for the Carte Vitale - but with a French employer, health cover (and all the other stuff) would normally start on the first day of employment. This is where sticking with your US employer or going with a portage firm could get tricky.

Sorry if this is a little bit rushed, but it's late as I'm writing this. Let's see what other advice or ideas folks have for you - and I'll try to answer questions a bit more lucidly after a good night's sleep.


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## 255

@kgalb2 -- I'll add a little more to @Bevdeforges' response.

Question 1: There are many ways to make this work. As you have already surmised, if your current U.S. companies would register with the French authorities -- that would be simplest for you (but not them.) There have been quite a few threads on this forum where the members have been trying to get a work visa for remote work (usually one form or another of the Passport Talent.) I know you do not have to worry about this, but the actions for you are the same. Some of the past solutions have been to register with a PEO (Professional Employer Organization,) these can be international or French (your link, "remote" looks like a payroll company that provides PEO services,) or a Portage Company (there are many in France,) as @Bevdeforges discussed. Either of these will extract a fee for your services and would act as your employer of record for all things French. They will bill your employer for your services (including VAT,) and pay all your French social insurances and tax withholdings. Alternatively, you could form your own French company, either separate companies, as @Bevdeforges mentioned or one company to employ both you and your spouse and handle everything yourself (or hire a French payroll company.) There was at least one U.S. employer that balked about messing with a French firm. That member formed a U.S. LLC (WY is a good choice) and then opened a French Branch to qualify for the Passport Talent. A little more complicated, but evidently was necessary because of the U.S. firms reluctance to deal with anything French. You could also form a new U.S. company (C Corp., S Corp., or LLC) that could register with the French authorities directly -- I haven't heard of anyone actually doing this, but it has been discussed. Your new WY C Corp. could contract with your current employers and no 1099s would even be needed. You always have the opportunity to change you mind later -- you could start with a portage company and after you get your bearings, switch to your own French company.

Question 2: If you are hired, by your own firm (French or U.S.,) a PEO company or a French portage company -- you'll be eligible for French healthcare immediately (You'll be paying for it with your social charge deductions.) As I mentioned above, you can always change your mind -- for instance, you might initially hire a PEO, to take care of all the initial paperwork. then take over routine payments yourself from your own company. As has been mentioned before, a PEO or portage company will take a percentage of your gross. I think a payroll company would be a lot cheaper alternative.

Question 3: I have nothing to add. Sorry.

Question 4: As far as the OFII -- your wife will clearly not have to jump through those hoops. However, as far as employment and healthcare, the situation is the same for both of you.

I don't know how long you've been married, but you'll be eligible to apply for French citizenship after four years of marriage. You will still need to show a "tie to France," speak the language (by evidence of a French language exam,) can prove that you've lived with your French spouse for the requisite period of time and probably other requirements. You can apply from the States or in France. The language exams are also given in the U.S. (You don't have to be fluent.) It takes a while to process, so my recommendation is to wait until you get settled in France, since you plan to move this year.

Remember too to get passports (U.S. & France) for your son. All immunizations (for all 3 of you) should be up to date also. Some of these are series shots (COVID, Hep A & B) Perhaps get blood panels drawn to test your current immunity (at least Hep A & B and MMR) to eliminate jabs you've already received. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

I'll add one more consideration to 255's response:

If you decide to set up your own business entities to work remotely, just be aware that it may depend on your line of work whether you can establish a single business to handle both spouse's remote working. One thing they are kind of "funny" about here is designating the activity category of a business entity (called the APE code). You can't have multiple APE codes, but which code you choose when setting up the business will determine which agencies you deal with for certain types of regulations, industry contracts and other administrative functions. (We ran afoul of this with our business - it's not impossible to change the APE but it's yet another bureaucratic process to have to deal with.) If you and your wife are in different lines of work, it may be tricky finding a single APE code that works for both of you. 

The "single owner" business forms mean just that - one owner, and if the other spouse is the "employee" then the business has to run a full blown payroll even if only for the one employee. To set up a two person business, you're probably looking at an SARL (unless you're in a regulated line of business or able to hold yourself out as being a "profession liberale") which requires at least 2 owners, with designation of a gérant (general manager) who is the person held legally liable for the operation of the business. There are other considerations like this throughout the system of business registrations that you may want to check into before you decide what to do including whether or not you can deduct your spouse's "salary" as a business expense, based on your marital regime, etc.

Point being that setting up a corporation (or just a "business entity") is nowhere near as easy in France as it can be in the US. Definitely try to avoid it until after you have gotten to France, established yourselves (i.e. you need to get through the OFII meetings and classes) and have a little better notion of some of the "complexities" of doing business in France.

And yes, you should apply to take French citizenship - but once your documents have been accepted, just be aware that the process will take at least a year, so obviously not something to expect to do in a hurry.


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## kgalb2

Thank you @Bevdeforges and @255 for the responses and wealth of information! I had some follow-up questions that perhaps you can provide more clarity on.



> I think you're referring here to what is called a "portage company" (at least by our British forum members). Just be aware that they will take a chunk of your gross pay as their commission for handling the payroll for you. As you mention, you might be able to set up a single person business (one for each of you if your employers are not the same) to do whatever it is you do - but in that case, all the paperwork is on your shoulders and, as you say, you will probably have to charge VAT to your US employers and you'd be responsible for all your cotisations, which run something over 40% of your gross salary, depending on what sort of business you set up and how your organize it. For that, you want to take a look at the CCI website for the departement where you will be living. CCI = Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie They could best be able to advise you what your options would be.


This is super helpful. We are chatting with the company I linked to see if they take a % of gross salary like you mentioned as that would make it a less attractive solution.

If we had to go the form a company route and bill our employers we would be on the hook to pay the business cotisations at 40%. Is that in addition to the 20-25% cotisations we would have to pay as employees of our company?

Also, all the info on APE codes and different types of businesses in France is very helpful. I think we would prefer to avoid this scenario as much as possible because of the cotisations and the additional complexities it introduces. In the US, setting up a business is much simpler and effectively can be a pass-through to our own personal income taxes. But it sounds like, after some reading & your comments, that it's much more formal in France.



> That's not really how it works. As mentioned above, you will need a spouse visa and part of the requirements for that visa are that you show proof of health insurance. Basically, unless your employer registers as an employer without a French presence (in which case they will handle the preliminaries for getting your a sécu number), you may have to show private insurance for your first year in France. (You'll have to check with whatever portage company to see what they can do for you in this regard before your arrival.) But given that you will be "employed" on arrival, you shouldn't have to wait 3 months to apply to CPAM if your employer can do the set up for you. This will probably be the tricky part with your plans.





> Question 2: If you are hired, by your own firm (French or U.S.,) a PEO company or a French portage company -- you'll be eligible for French healthcare immediately (You'll be paying for it with your social charge deductions.) As I mentioned above, you can always change your mind -- for instance, you might initially hire a PEO, to take care of all the initial paperwork. then take over routine payments yourself from your own company. As has been mentioned before, a PEO or portage company will take a percentage of your gross. I think a payroll company would be a lot cheaper alternative.


It is my understanding that if we go the "portage company" route we found, a lot of this complexity will be solved for us. But I don't know this concretely, so it would be important to check. Effectively, they will take care of the preliminaries for obtaining our sécu number, etc. If that is the case, do we still need to have private health insurance for an entire year? Once we have a 
sécu number we should be able to begin the process with CPAM to get a carte vitalle. Do we have to do something special for our son or is he tied to our carte vitalle?



> That member formed a U.S. LLC (WY is a good choice) and then opened a French Branch to qualify for the Passport Talent. A little more complicated, but evidently was necessary because of the U.S. firms reluctance to deal with anything French. You could also form a new U.S. company (C Corp., S Corp., or LLC) that could register with the French authorities directly -- I haven't heard of anyone actually doing this, but it has been discussed. Your new WY C Corp. could contract with your current employers and no 1099s would even be needed. You always have the opportunity to change you mind later -- you could start with a portage company and after you get your bearings, switch to your own French company.


This is very helpful. We don't have the visa problem that it sounds like this was trying to solve. It actually may make the invoice of our current employers via a French branch quite a bit simpler than I initially thought. We are already owners on two different LLCs (one converting into an S Corp soonish) that could allow us to take a similar approach if something like a PEO doesn't work out. No 1099s because it's company to company transactions is that the thinking?



> I don't know how long you've been married, but you'll be eligible to apply for French citizenship after four years of marriage. You will still need to show a "tie to France," speak the language (by evidence of a French language exam,) can prove that you've lived with your French spouse for the requisite period of time and probably other requirements. You can apply from the States or in France. The language exams are also given in the U.S. (You don't have to be fluent.) It takes a while to process, so my recommendation is to wait until you get settled in France, since you plan to move this year.


I honestly did not know this! We have been married for five years this June. Does that mean I am eligible to apply for that now or do we have to live in France for a specified amount of time?



> Remember too to get passports (U.S. & France) for your son. All immunizations (for all 3 of you) should be up to date also. Some of these are series shots (COVID, Hep A & B) Perhaps get blood panels drawn to test your current immunity (at least Hep A & B and MMR) to eliminate jabs you've already received.


Great reminder, I need to get my US passport renewed. Our son has a US passport, but not a French one currently. Will we be able to get his once we are in France? Is there a strategic advantage to him having one before we depart?

Thank you again for all of the information! I will be sure to keep this thread updated as we take new steps and get more information to hopefully help someone else.


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## Bevdeforges

kgalb2 said:


> If we had to go the form a company route and bill our employers we would be on the hook to pay the business cotisations at 40%. Is that in addition to the 20-25% cotisations we would have to pay as employees of our company?


If you set yourselves up as employees of your respective companies, then yes, you withhold the 20 - 25% from your gross pay, and then the company pays the other 40%. 


kgalb2 said:


> In the US, setting up a business is much simpler and effectively can be a pass-through to our own personal income taxes.


You can do this, too, with a French business entity, where you pass through the results of the business to your personal income tax declaration, though there are distinct advantages (and disadvantages) to setting the company up to pay its own taxes and cotisations. This is where you probably want to talk to the CCI for details.


kgalb2 said:


> Effectively, they will take care of the preliminaries for obtaining our sécu number, etc. If that is the case, do we still need to have private health insurance for an entire year?


If you are applying for a spouse visa, you will have to have health insurance when you submit your visa application. I'm not sure if a portage company can/will register you as their "employee" before you arrive in France - but hey, talk to your contact about this. If they will provide you with a "job contract" or other proof that they are "hiring" you, it might fly.


kgalb2 said:


> Once we have a
> sécu number we should be able to begin the process with CPAM to get a carte vitalle. Do we have to do something special for our son or is he tied to our carte vitalle?


Once you have a sécu number through your employer, you are covered for health insurance (and will have cotisations taken out of your salary). Getting the Carte Vitale takes a bit longer (you'll get a temporary sécu number at first with the permanent number following in a few weeks, or sometimes months) and you'll probably need to bring in documents to the CPAM office to start that process. Your son should be covered as part of your coverage and will need a carnet de santé for purposes of the creche or halte garderie - so another administrative task to do shortly after arrival.


kgalb2 said:


> We have been married for five years this June. Does that mean I am eligible to apply for that now or do we have to live in France for a specified amount of time?


You can apply for citizenship now. But be advised that it takes a good year for the paperwork to get processed, whether you file it in the US or here in France. If you can put off your plans to move until your citizenship comes through, you'll need to get your French passport (and arrange for your French birth certificate) which takes another month or two.


kgalb2 said:


> Our son has a US passport, but not a French one currently. Will we be able to get his once we are in France? Is there a strategic advantage to him having one before we depart?


This is another thing that isn't absolutely necessary but will make the process considerably easier if you do get him his French passport from over there. Contact the closest French Embassy to see what you'll need to do for that. Depending on how soon your US passport expires, you may need to attend to renewing that before you get into the visa application process.


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## 255

@kgalb2 -- @Bevdeforges has pretty much answered your questions, but I'll add a little food for thought. I would recommend you take a little time to review your entity structuring. You've got a lot to think about with taxes/reporting in two countries and dealing with your current employers. It used to be de rigor to form a company overseas for Americans, since the profits could be retained in the overseas company, tax deferred, until the funds were repatriated to the U.S. Now with the GILTI tax, some folks are rethinking how they structure. With the "check the box" regulations, you can have some flexibility in the taxation of both foreign and domestic entities, from a U.S. tax standpoint including making your foreign or U.S. companies disregarded entities. You can certainly change your one U.S. LLC to be taxed as an S Corp. -- but make sure it "fits" in your overall plan. Most business owners that choose to be taxed as S Corps, choose to do so to reduce U.S. payroll taxes -- will this give you any advantage overseas, I do not know.

As far as French social insurance charges go -- someone is going to pay them! Of course, business owners routinely pay both the employee and employer portions (with an adjustment on their personal taxes.) It won't be any different in France, except the rates are higher. Most of the other threads, I've read, U.S. employers balked at France's higher contributions.

In addition to the U.S., you'll have to report your U.S. company earnings in France. If you are forced to "bill" your U.S. employers, from a U.S. entity -- I'd recommend closing the LLCs and open a single C Corp. That way the only reporting to France will be your shares of stock. That company could either pay you, or contract with a PEO or portage company. It would be a lot cleaner than an LLC. KISS.

As far as 1099s -- they are not required for C Corps and if you are "stacking," the LLCs would either be disregarded (no separate tax return,) or would issue a K-1, if a multi-member LLC.

If you know where you are moving, you may be able to get a CCI contact, while you are still in the States. 

As far as your own French citizenship application, yes you can apply now, just remember you need a language test (good for 1 year) and other documents usually issued within the last 90 days. If you don't apply in the U.S., I'd recommend getting your dossier together, so you're ready to drop-it once you get to France. Get the addresses and a procedure to acquire the needed documents in a timely manner. France does not currently have a French residency requirement for spousal citizenship applications -- just beware the rules do tend to change over time. There is a 5 year residency requirement for others.

Concerning you son's passports -- the rule is, you generally need to enter a country with that countries' passport, if you are a citizen. So in your son's case, he is required to enter France on his French passport! Now I'm not saying you won't get away with using a U.S. passport and feigning ignorance -- but his Mom will be on a French passport and it may be an issue. I've seen it before (not France.) You said you were leaving at the end of the year, so you have time. Just another thing to check off your list. Of course if you decide to muddle through with only a U.S. passport, for your son, you can get him a French passport, in France. When returning to the U.S., likewise, he would need to present his U.S. passport. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

OK, one other "little" factor that 255 has reminded me of here. Be sure you understand the situation regarding required reporting of your French business on your US tax forms. It's a complicated process that many with small businesses choose to just ignore - and that seems to be a viable approach if the company is small enough. However, the rules say that "certain foreign corporations" have some fairly heavy reporting requirements if a US citizen holds at least 10% of the stock in the company or holds a "director" position (not terribly well defined in law) - including having to file US GAAP financials in both local currency and US$ each year with the IRS. With anything more than a simple micro-entreprise (AE) you will need to do an annual filing in France, and French financials do vary somewhat from the classic US format ones. Sure, you can hire an accountant (expert comptable) to handle the accounting stuff for you, but that's yet another significant expense for you, and you'll still need to do much of the day to day "write-up" work yourself.

Just a suggestion: consider taking some sort of 6 month "sabbatical" to make the move, get settled in and learn your way around the French business environment so that you can do your homework before having to launch any sort of business set up here in France. OK, you'll still need to find private health insurance for that initial period, but that's a one-time expense. And it will give you the time to handle most of the initial "administration" stuff (OFII, various registrations) plus you may be able to avail yourselves of some of the CCI services (consulting, classes) to enable yourselves to make better decisions regarding how you want to proceed with the business/work side of things. One of the OFII requirements is usually a meeting with someone from Pole Emploi to discuss your employment opportunities and options in France - though if you're already working with the CCI, that may suffice for that part of your initial obligations. 

Though your wife won't have the OFII requirements, she'll need a period of time to orient herself to how things are done here in France, particularly if she has been raised in the US. (If she has been living on a Green Card in the US all this time, there is some administrative stuff to do to give up the Green Card officially and adjust her tax status for US purposes.)

Net-net, give yourselves a bit of breathing space on arrival because things really are "different" over here. I take it you may not have French family to lean on (particularly with regard to the little one - which is a kind of classic thing here in France) which will make those first several months considerably more hectic than usual.


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## kgalb2

*A brief update on working for American companies while living in France.*

I spoke with my current company and it sounds like using Remote.com as mentioned above is going to work out. They are currently already doing this for another employee that is living in Italy, so they seem OK with the additional contributions/money they will be paying each month. I am running a calculation through that service to see what is the total number the company would be paying, but rough calculations show a ~40% monthly increase (which matches what everyone has said here).

My wife, on the other hand, has not spoken with her company about the PEO/portage company route like Remote.com as she believes they are likely not going to be on board with that.

So, we think she is likely going to end up in one of these boats talked about above regarding forming some business entity.

We came across Legalstart.fr | Création et gestion d’entreprise, dépôt de marque, recouvrement which may make it a bit easier for her to form whatever company/entity she needs to form in order to effectively "contract" for her American company.



> As far as French social insurance charges go -- someone is going to pay them! Of course, business owners routinely pay both the employee and employer portions (with an adjustment on their personal taxes.) It won't be any different in France, except the rates are higher. Most of the other threads, I've read, U.S. employers balked at France's higher contributions.


This is the biggest problem I see in her forming her own company to "contract" for her American company. It sounds like if she goes this route she would be the business (as far as France) is concerned that would need to be paying the 40% in cotisations.



> If you set yourselves up as employees of your respective companies, then yes, you withhold the 20 - 25% from your gross pay, and then the company pays the other 40%.


Perhaps there is some other entity where the company is literally just my wife, so she only pays the 40% cotisations as the company. But that is still quite the hit to her monthly income as she will effectively be receiving 40% less salary because she is the one that is going to pay it instead of the company she is working for.



> Just a suggestion: consider taking some sort of 6 month "sabbatical" to make the move, get settled in and learn your way around the French business environment so that you can do your homework before having to launch any sort of business set up here in France. OK, you'll still need to find private health insurance for that initial period, but that's a one-time expense. And it will give you the time to handle most of the initial "administration" stuff (OFII, various registrations) plus you may be able to avail yourselves of some of the CCI services (consulting, classes) to enable yourselves to make better decisions regarding how you want to proceed with the business/work side of things. One of the OFII requirements is usually a meeting with someone from Pole Emploi to discuss your employment opportunities and options in France - though if you're already working with the CCI, that may suffice for that part of your initial obligations.
> 
> Though your wife won't have the OFII requirements, she'll need a period of time to orient herself to how things are done here in France, particularly if she has been raised in the US. (If she has been living on a Green Card in the US all this time, there is some administrative stuff to do to give up the Green Card officially and adjust her tax status for US purposes.)
> 
> Net-net, give yourselves a bit of breathing space on arrival because things really are "different" over here. I take it you may not have French family to lean on (particularly with regard to the little one - which is a kind of classic thing here in France) which will make those first several months considerably more hectic than usual.


This is very sound advice.

We have my father in law in France, so we have some help to lean on. But certainly not an entire village to help us figure stuff out.

I think we are in a bit of a limbo state until we get confirmation on what my wife works out with her current American company. If they are onboard with the Remote.com idea, then we are both looking pretty good from the perspective of carrying on our current jobs in France. But if her company is not onboard, like mine is, then she has the additional business formation & contracting stuff to figure out in France.

Luckily, we can get by just fine on a single income. So if she needs to take some time to figure out what business formation and contracting looks like from France, it should be doable. But the time to figure stuff out is important regardless. We will be needing to figure out childcare as well, so the time off may be even more important depending on whether we can figure that out ahead of time or have to wait until we are in France.

Also noting that she has a US passport so no Green Card complications that we have to handle.



> Concerning you son's passports -- the rule is, you generally need to enter a country with that countries' passport, if you are a citizen. So in your son's case, he is required to enter France on his French passport! Now I'm not saying you won't get away with using a U.S. passport and feigning ignorance -- but his Mom will be on a French passport and it may be an issue. I've seen it before (not France.) You said you were leaving at the end of the year, so you have time. Just another thing to check off your list. Of course if you decide to muddle through with only a U.S. passport, for your son, you can get him a French passport, in France. When returning to the U.S., likewise, he would need to present his U.S. passport. Cheers, 255


This is very helpful. We are going to look into what it will take for him to get a French passport now. We have time so it's worth investing effort into it if it's relatively straightforward.

*Question on French citizenship for me*
This was a new discovery for us, so thank you for helping us unearth it!

I think I am still leaning toward the spousal visa route as it should be processed a lot quicker than me applying for citizenship. But is it possible for me to begin the citizenship process from the US right now and get a spousal visa? Effectively, could I begin the process with France right now while also simultaneously applying for a spousal visa and moving to France? It sounds like my closest consulate (Los Angeles) will process this and the review meeting happens ~6 months after applying, so theoretically we would still be in the country for that.


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## Bevdeforges

kgalb2 said:


> But is it possible for me to begin the citizenship process from the US right now and get a spousal visa? Effectively, could I begin the process with France right now while also simultaneously applying for a spousal visa and moving to France? I


Just speaking from personal experience, I wouldn't start a process like taking citizenship in the US and then try to transfer everything to France. Theoretically it should be possible, but these sorts of procedures go much better if you don't throw a potential monkey wrench into the works. The processing for nationality will take a year (or so) and honestly, if you do it in France it's a whole bunch easier to arrange for the various intermediate steps - interviews, any additional documents, tests, whatever else. You can have the spouse visa within a couple of weeks and be on your way. The various OFII meetings and classes you have to go through are actually a nice idea - I only wish I would have had access to them when I first got here.


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## kgalb2

Bevdeforges said:


> Just speaking from personal experience, I wouldn't start a process like taking citizenship in the US and then try to transfer everything to France. Theoretically it should be possible, but these sorts of procedures go much better if you don't throw a potential monkey wrench into the works. The processing for nationality will take a year (or so) and honestly, if you do it in France it's a whole bunch easier to arrange for the various intermediate steps - interviews, any additional documents, tests, whatever else. You can have the spouse visa within a couple of weeks and be on your way. The various OFII meetings and classes you have to go through are actually a nice idea - I only wish I would have had access to them when I first got here.


Just following up on the spousal visa as we are beginning the process of working with a company in France to find a place to live. My understanding of the spousal visa is below, can someone confirm this sounds correct:

1. I apply for a spousal visa while still living here in the US. This will require me to submit my passport, ID, French marriage certificate, and proof of my wifes French citizenship (I assume her passport).

2. Once applied I will need to make an appointment with the French consulate for my visa interview. Based on this website, Accueil FV | Etats-Unis d'Amérique, I can't make that appointment more than 3 months ahead of my scheduled departure and there is a 1-month delay in getting the visa processed. So if we intend to move in October I would need an appointment and hopefully an issued visa in July. A rough estimate of course.

3. Once my visa is issued I will have the right to work in France under the employer of record scenario above. But when I get to France I will have to make an appointment with the Prefecture within 90 days of arriving in France. This kicks off the health screening and the eventual issuance of a carte de sejour.

In working with this company they mentioned this to me, but I don't think it's correct. I think what they are referring to is the carte de sejour, see below.



> You can only apply for a spousal visa once you are in France, via the Prefecture and this is not a speedy process. You have to apply within 90 days of arrival as a resident, but you need a meeting at the Prefecture which could be some time away, and then there is the processing time. I would suggest you speak with your HR department to see if they have any suggestions as to how to move forward, or indeed an immigration lawyer. It may be that you apply for a working visa instead, as your company could probably sponsor the application.


I'm also a little confused by the Visa Wizard (big surprise, I know). There seems to be some conflicting information on whether I can work in France under a spousal visa. Below is a screenshot of what I believe is the visa I would be applying for, but I'm unclear if this will allow me to work in France as the spouse of a French citizen.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, a couple clarifications for you:


kgalb2 said:


> 1. I apply for a spousal visa while still living here in the US. This will require me to submit my passport, ID, French marriage certificate, and proof of my wifes French citizenship (I assume her passport).


Yes. But what you need to submit for the "marriage certificate" is the "livret de famille" - the little booklet thing that shows that your marriage has been "transcribed" into the French system (basically that the marriage is registered in the French spouse's birth record). 



> 2. Once applied I will need to make an appointment with the French consulate for my visa interview. Based on this website, Accueil FV | Etats-Unis d'Amérique, I can't make that appointment more than 3 months ahead of my scheduled departure and there is a 1-month delay in getting the visa processed. So if we intend to move in October I would need an appointment and hopefully an issued visa in July. A rough estimate of course.


If you are in the US, you make your appointment with a company called VFS Global, which is the agency the French government uses for processing visa applications in the US. (There are a whole bunch more VFS offices than there are French consulates in the US, and you can make your appointment at whichever VFS office is most convenient for you.)

It depends on the backlog in visa processing (all visas are ultimately processed in Washington DC at the consulate, but your main contact is with VFS) but a spouse visa can take as little as a week or two to be processed and back to you.



> 3. Once my visa is issued I will have the right to work in France under the employer of record scenario above. But when I get to France I will have to make an appointment with the Prefecture within 90 days of arriving in France. This kicks off the health screening and the eventual issuance of a carte de sejour.


Don't know what you mean by "the employer of record scenararo above." You have the right to work in France, but you will need to find a job or set up a business for yourself (in order to properly register yourself with the tax and social insurance agencies).

You don't make an appointment with the Prefecture, but rather contact the OFII (a separate office - and generally pretty easy to deal with) to register your arrival and validate your visa (turning the visa in your passport into a residence permit or "titre de séjour"). Once that is done, you wait for instructions about the medical exam and meetings to set up your "integration contract" and related classes and meetings. (Includes one with the Pole Emploi to help you identify your employment opportunities in France.) By the time your visa/initial titre de séjour come up for renewal at the end of a year, you'll be expected to have completed the terms of the integration contract (mostly the civics classes, and other meetings plus demonstrating a basic level of French). You then receive your first "carte de séjour" (an actual card rather than just the validated visa in your passport.


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## kgalb2

Very helpful as always Bev!



> If you are in the US, you make your appointment with a company called VFS Global, which is the agency the French government uses for processing visa applications in the US. (There are a whole bunch more VFS offices than there are French consulates in the US, and you can make your appointment at whichever VFS office is most convenient for you.)
> 
> It depends on the backlog in visa processing (all visas are ultimately processed in Washington DC at the consulate, but your main contact is with VFS) but a spouse visa can take as little as a week or two to be processed and back to you.


Hopefully, this is great news as I had worried about getting an appointment at the consulate for this. The appointments book up incredibly fast at the consulate closest to me (a 2 hour plane ride).



> Don't know what you mean by "the employer of record scenararo above." You have the right to work in France, but you will need to find a job or set up a business for yourself (in order to properly register yourself with the tax and social insurance agencies).
> 
> You don't make an appointment with the Prefecture, but rather contact the OFII (a separate office - and generally pretty easy to deal with) to register your arrival and validate your visa (turning the visa in your passport into a residence permit or "titre de séjour"). Once that is done, you wait for instructions about the medical exam and meetings to set up your "integration contract" and related classes and meetings. (Includes one with the Pole Emploi to help you identify your employment opportunities in France.) By the time your visa/initial titre de séjour come up for renewal at the end of a year, you'll be expected to have completed the terms of the integration contract (mostly the civics classes, and other meetings plus demonstrating a basic level of French). You then receive your first "carte de séjour" (an actual card rather than just the validated visa in your passport.


Oh, this was in reference to my earlier messages in this thread. I will most likely be keeping my job with my US company and they will use an Employer of Record in France (I believe patronage is another word for it). So that company will be my French employer which will be great and they will invoice my US company for the additional costs, social securities, etc, etc.

The part I wasn't sure about is if I could work in France under a spousal visa. But I think I have convinced myself that is not a problem a number of times now. The question is really about what the Employer of Record needs from me to show that I can legally work in France. Which I think means I will need to have my visa in hand before I can begin a work contract with them. That's a question I have out to them.

I am still confused about the France rental company and their statement about not being able to get a spousal visa outside of France 🤔 I think they were referring to the "titre de séjour" which is what I will need to do in France to turn my visa into a residence permit. Everything you describe here makes sense in that regard.

My concern was mostly around how I time my work transfer so that I am eligible to work in France when I arrive. Which I think is covered under my visa that gets turned into "titre de séjour" once validated and I'm in France.


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