# Two Questions



## Phil306 (May 14, 2013)

1. I've read about the need not to have a visa, if you are in Italy for 90 days or less. Now, can I leave Italy and go to another EU country for the 90 day break, then return to Italy? Or must the 90 day break be outside of the EU?

2. I am going to assume (I know what that does to a person), Rome and the Tuscany areas are the most expensive. Housing, cost of living, etc. However, does anyone know the average income for someone who lives here?

Just your run of the mill income, in Euro's, for a person living in Rome/Tuscany. 2,000 Euro's a month? 3,000 Euro's?

Thank you in advance for the information.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

You need to leave the Schengen zone. Today that's much but not all of the EU. You could go to the UK ,Ireland and some eastern European countries. But even the Swiss are in the zone.

Much less. There are parts of Rome that are fairly low income. Not all Tuscany is Chiantishire.


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## Phil306 (May 14, 2013)

NickZ said:


> You need to leave the Schengen zone. Today that's much but not all of the EU. You could go to the UK ,Ireland and some eastern European countries. But even the Swiss are in the zone.
> 
> Much less. There are parts of Rome that are fairly low income. Not all Tuscany is Chiantishire.


Thank you. They sure don't make it easy. My issue is slightly different (I think). I'd like to spend 4-6 months in several different EU countries, after I retire in a few years. I'd have the whole pension, money issue handled, so I wouldn't be taking any resources from any country. It just seems this isn't possible.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

It's possible, sort of. You would need to get a national visa in the country where you want to spend the most time and assuming the country allows foreign retirees. Some do. Examples include Italy ("elective residency") and the countries with home buying programs for foreigners (Ireland, Portugal, and Spain among them). Once you have legal residence in one of these countries you are permitted visits of up to 90 days in other EU/Schengen countries. The "180 day" rule is set aside, so in principle you could, for example, live in Italy, visit France for 90 days, go back to Italy for 5 minutes, then visit France again for 90 days. You must also honor the national residence permit terms and renewal requirements. In Italy, for example, that means periodically renewing a PdS (temporary residence permit) which requires being physically present in Italy.

Anyway, to net it out, if you're OK with having a European "base" and actually being there a reasonable amount of time -- and keeping that home continuously for your exclusive use -- you can then spend 90 day stints elsewhere before returning to your base country, then you can go right back out for another 90 days. You can't get too crazy about it, but within reason it's OK.

You must be fairly well to do, and you can't work. Italy will expect you to demonstrate substantial financial means when you apply for an ER visa. Spain, Portugal, and Ireland will expect you to buy a home with a certain minimum value. (Spain is the most affordable of the three.)


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## Phil306 (May 14, 2013)

BBCWatcher said:


> It's possible, sort of. You would need to get a national visa in the country where you want to spend the most time and assuming the country allows foreign retirees. Some do. Examples include Italy ("elective residency") and the countries with home buying programs for foreigners (Ireland, Portugal, and Spain among them). Once you have legal residence in one of these countries you are permitted visits of up to 90 days in other EU/Schengen countries. The "180 day" rule is set aside, so in principle you could, for example, live in Italy, visit France for 90 days, go back to Italy for 5 minutes, then visit France again for 90 days. You must also honor the national residence permit terms and renewal requirements. In Italy, for example, that means periodically renewing a PdS (temporary residence permit) which requires being physically present in Italy.
> 
> Anyway, to net it out, if you're OK with having a European "base" and actually being there a reasonable amount of time -- and keeping that home continuously for your exclusive use -- you can then spend 90 day stints elsewhere before returning to your base country, then you can go right back out for another 90 days. You can't get too crazy about it, but within reason it's OK.
> 
> You must be fairly well to do, and you can't work. Italy will expect you to demonstrate substantial financial means when you apply for an ER visa. Spain, Portugal, and Ireland will expect you to buy a home with a certain minimum value. (Spain is the most affordable of the three.)


Yes, that is part of MY problem. I could apply for, and reading here, would probably be granted the Visa in Italy. However, I wouldn't be able to financially afford a house/rent in Italy, and go to France for 90 days, and afford rent there too. One or the other, I can do; both I would not have the financial resources for.

However, thank you for your ideas. I may just have to cut it to 90 days a country.


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## stefanaccio (Sep 25, 2007)

You might consider setting up shop in the nicest location in all of Italy...Abruzzo. With the economic crisis in full force there a many furnished properties available in the 600 euro/month range.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

No, you can't do "90 days a country." If you don't have a visa you can spend up to 90 days out of any 180 day period within the Schengen countries. That is, if you've been inside the Schengen Area for 90 days, you have to leave the Schengen Area for 91 days to fully "reset your clock." Then you can go back into Schengen.

Getting a national visa means that 180 day part of the rules no longer applies. You can travel throughout the Schengen Area and stay outside your visa country for up to 90 days, then go back to your visa country for as long as you want, then head off again. Loop, repeat.

OK, so if you don't want to get a visa and don't want to have two simultaneous rentals but do want to bounce around Europe then you can bounce between the U.K. and the Schengen Area a few times. The U.K. typically grants six month stay permission. So you could, for example, visit France for 90 days, the U.K. for 91, Germany for 90, U.K. for 91, Italy for 90, U.K. for 91, etc. You can't get too silly about it -- I wouldn't try to do this for years -- but it's within the rules.

You can insert up to 90 days' stay in Ireland -- Ireland is also outside Schengen -- but you'll still probably want a day or two in the U.K. to make sure your Schengen clock is truly reset. (The U.K. and Ireland are part of the Common Travel Area.) Gibraltar typically offers 6 month stay permission and is outside Schengen, so you could stay in Gibraltar for 91 days to reset your Schengen clock. (That works well from Spain of course.) Note that 91 days is a long time in Gibraltar.  Georgia typically offers a whopping 360 day stay permission to U.S. citizens, so that's another country in the region that can reset your Schengen clock. Tunisia offers 120 days. You get the idea.


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## Phil306 (May 14, 2013)

BBCWatcher said:


> No, you can't do "90 days a country." If you don't have a visa you can spend up to 90 days out of any 180 day period within the Schengen countries. That is, if you've been inside the Schengen Area for 90 days, you have to leave the Schengen Area for 91 days to fully "reset your clock." Then you can go back into Schengen.
> 
> Getting a national visa means that 180 day part of the rules no longer applies. You can travel throughout the Schengen Area and stay outside your visa country for up to 90 days, then go back to your visa country for as long as you want, then head off again. Loop, repeat.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your input. I do appreciate it.


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## Foot Ball (May 8, 2013)

I used to need to get out of eu every 90 days , and I was always going to marroco....for like a week or five days!!! and that used to be enough at the time for another 90 days around eu


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Not any more. The Schengen Area offers a single shared visa "clock," and you need 90+ days (91 works) outside Schengen to fully reset your clock if you stay 90 days in Schengen.


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## rfs799 (Jul 7, 2013)

If you are looking for a cheap place in Italy to live with mild iwnters and sunny summers without huge crowds, try Calabria. You can get an apartment all to yourself for around 300 euros a month in cities like Cosenza and Catanzaro and be within an hour of the nearest beach, It takes about six hours on the slow train to reach Rome from Cosenza. Despite the negative publicity of Calabria as a Mafia hotspot, you will probably feel safer in Calabria than most parts of the States.


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