# The Spanish housing market



## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

I might very well be wrong but this is how I see matters. In the UK prices were governed by affordibility, eg; Male earns £25,000, female earns £15,000 so they can borrow circa £80,000. They take out a 95% mortgage on a property costing £84,000 and as long as their incomes increase in line with property inflation (not likely however) they can afford to move to a similar property.

It is unlikely that some Spanish high earner is going to come over and offer them twice the value of their property. But even if that was the case it is unlikely to increase valuations on similar properties unless there is a queue of wealthy Spaniards competing to buy them.

Now in respect of Spain we have a country with the lowest average salary amongst the western EU members. Spaniards buy what they can afford, some build illegals on family owned land, but the authorities turn a blind eye because of nepotism. All goes well, a few foreigners come along and snap up what is a bargain to them but don't wreck the market.

The penny finally drops and developers start to build and price in line with the earnings of the foreigners that they wish to sell to. Spaniards can't afford them so they carry on very much as they had been doing until foreign buyers set their sights on the properties that they would normally buy. The illegal finca is sold for a premium and is converted into a luxury villa by it's new foreign owner, the authorities however finally take an interest in it.

It is often said that the average Spaniard is not interested in the detached villa with a large garden and pool, perhaps he was not interested because he couldn't afford it. Spain is the best example of a two tier housing system that I can think of, in the UK a property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, but I can't think of anywhere with the exception of 'Docklands' where property is priced for a foreign pocket.

I wonder if the property crash/slowdown will now bring Spanish buyers into what has predominantly been a foreign market.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

In my opinion, the Spanish are alot more wealthy than we give them credit for. Families stick together and have land handed down through the generations, which they have sold and made a mint, also spani8sh families often club together and get life mortgages which just get passed through generations. 

Where i live its the young Spanish that own the big houses/villas. The Spanish also tend to deal in "black" money, which is easier for them than for us cos they know the backhand rules and dont need to leave the country.

From my limited view so far, I would say, in the main, its the expats that are struggling in Spain and the Spanish are and always have been doing ok.

I could be wrong, but certainly in my area, this is how it seems to be!?

Jo


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi there,

I would tend to agree more with what Crooksey has said on the subject. How I see it, the property prices in Spain are well out of the reach of the average Spaniard.

The Spanish simply don't get paid enough !

Most Spaniards stay at home with their parents until they get married and even then its very difficult for them to get on the property ladder due to crazy prices.

I have many Spanish friends who tell me that they have given up all hope of the possiblity of owning their own home, its just not financially possible.

I might add that the rental market is also now a 2 tier system and this is especially so on the Costas, whereby there is the Spanish price and the Expat / holiday price. Thus many expats wanting to obtain a rental income, particularly long term rentals are most likely going to need to reduce their expectations to find a tennant. 

I know that the rental for properties in certain Coastal areas has been nearly halved, thus if you have an apartment or villa for rent, its important to get clued up before you scare away any potential tennants by asking for too much money.

I certainly don't envy anyone needing to rent their property to avoid bankrupcy.

Now is a very good time for potential tennants / expats, as their are many bargains to be had on the rental market.

Regards, Dave


many expats


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SunnySpain said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I would tend to agree more with what Crooksey has said on the subject. How I see it, the property prices in Spain are well out of the reach of the average Spaniard.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm in the wrong area then, cos my landlord is Spanish and owns several properties, all the houses around me are far bigger than ours and owned by young ( in the main, 20 something) spanish couples and my estate agent friend has stated on numerous occasions that the Spanish are the ones with the money and resouces, the expats like to own the run down old fincas and do em up, they always seem strapped for cash. The Spanish prefer the smart, new villas and houses and are more likely to pay cash (black money????).

So I would say in my area, the spanish definately have the upper hand financially, most of their families have made a lot of money from the upsurge of tourism and foriegn visitors since the 70s

Also alot of the properties that arent seilling around here are now being used as low cost housing for local couples who then do some kind of mortgage share scheme with the govenment, so even those that dont have much seem to be looked after

Jo


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi there,

In reply to Jojo,

The Spanish are very shrewd when it come to money, astute is probably a better word - lol

Most properties in the North of Spain are bought by people from Madrid, Santander or Bilbao, very few locals can afford to buy a property.

I think expats generally want a real bargain in the hope that they can 1 day make a tidy profit, but those days are gone unfortunately in Spain

Saying that, in a couple of years those days might return, but I doubt the prices wil ever be as high as they are now, same goes for the UK.

I certainly do not envy expats who have bought a property on the Costas within the last couple of years, as they are unlikely to ever see a profit.

Now is the time to rent in Spain, not to buy.

Regards, Dave


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

jojo said:


> Maybe I'm in the wrong area then, cos my landlord is Spanish and owns several properties, all the houses around me are far bigger than ours and owned by young ( in the main, 20 something) spanish couples and my estate agent friend has stated on numerous occasions that the Spanish are the ones with the money and resouces, the expats like to own the run down old fincas and do em up, they always seem strapped for cash. The Spanish prefer the smart, new villas and houses and are more likely to pay cash (black money????).
> 
> So I would say in my area, the spanish definately have the upper hand financially, most of their families have made a lot of money from the upsurge of tourism and foriegn visitors since the 70s
> 
> ...


Jo, I know your area quite well and agree that there are a lot of wealthy Spanish there. I also agree that there are a lot of Brits who appear to be on their uppers, doing everything that they can to continue 'living the dream'.

The Costa Blanca is very different, where we will be staying in September is a very select area with large villas set in huge gardens with the obligatory pools. Apart from a handful of landowners who were the farmers who sold their land to the developers and now live in their old finca's, albeit without the land, practically everyone is British, Scandanavian, Dutch, German, Belgium etc. 

You have to drive many km2's inland to find the indigenous Spanish in their run down fincas and village houses. They have clapped out vehicles, and don't dress in the way the Spanish do in your area. I rarely see a Spaniard in an expensive restaurant, have a look weekdays at the amount of Spanish in the students restaurant in the La Fonda Hotel in Benalmadena Pueblo if you are in the area (An absolute must, by the way).

Property prices are a lot cheaper on the Costa Blanca so folk aren't having to scrimp and save so much. You also get a lot more for your money and wonderful mountain urbanisations with magnificent sea views. 400,000 Euros buys a 4 bed, 3 bath villa, 150 - 200m2 build on a 2000m2 plot with a large heated pool , naya, garage and landscaped gardens. I've seen 2 bed apartments on the Mijas Costa priced at 300,000 Euros, and they have sold.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Many Spaniards of LOWLY income in the cities have additional properties outside the cities. 

A lot of familes moved to Madrid for work back in the "dark years", but there was no market for their village house so they kept it for holidays. As money was tight they had fewer kids so there are folk my age with 2 or 3 inherited properties. 

We're probably unique in my wifes family that we only have one (and they are at the VERY lowly end of the scale) - and really because I cant see the point in having more. I don't need to save for my kids future - I have none. They are also shrewd - and have been hiding "black" money in property for years. 

They also DISLIKE the concept of "second hand". It's one reason "off plan" worked so well here. You knew you'd be the first owner - oh and it'd be cheaper.

They also generally shun "fancy" restaurants - I know LOTS of "silly rich" Spaniards who preferentially eat at small family run establishments - where you still get food like granny made. 

They're also TERRIBLY conservative with food. Lot's wont even try foreign food. I know one guy with a collection of Ferraris (he shows them at car fairs for fun - normally takes 10) - he'll happily sit and eat anchovies and tomato on toast rather than go out for Lunch. They are btw HIS anchovies (he owns that company). A good friend of mine used to take the tomatoes from his garden - Another guy brought the oil - see where I'm going!. These are all millionaires. I have been to lunch with them - generally simple, traditional but excellent vfm.

Naturally there are some twits who "like to be seen" but that's like saying Paris Hilton represents all Americans with money. I think not!. But ask MOST Spaniards what town "X" is famous for - and it'll often be some old fashioned recipe/meal.

I can tell you that illegals DO NOT get away with it any more. They're catching folk weekly (if not daily) - The Chavelas are a bit different - but the building BOOM ousted a lot - some might say it's often why land was reclassified - so they could knock the Chavelas down!. It's why a lot of ex-pats are getting caught out buying land with "permissions" that disappear - because the permissions were "officially illegal" but valid for life of the original owner. They will often get passed on as inheritance - but not through sale. I know one case (ex General of Franco - nice guy he was too) - his son (the antithesis of a Franco General - oh boy!) returned half the plot as farmland to keep the "house he was born" in etc. This some years ago - it's not a recent thing. 

Also you WONT see the rich Spanish folks houses - They generally are hidden away behind masses of trees or MASSIVE fences. The true fincas are huge. think 50,000m minimum. A lot are dual purpose too. The land gets used as hunting land or leased to farmers. You want to see money people - get yourself invited to a managed shoot. 

You're right though - I doubt most Spaniards WANT to live where ex-pats do. (I have to admit, I'm not sure I want to either - Sorry!). And many don't show their money like non-Spaniards. Even the "not silly rich but simply well-off" will walk about looking like a shepherd. Whereas in some cultures "showing money" is a sign of having done well - here "flashing it" will get an almost unanimous rejection not admiration. 

Can still recall the comments in a Barbers when I first came to Spain - Guy next to me was in the chair doing his "Don" act. Barber was playing along with it "Really? - Wow!" - guy leaves and the barber simply says "Gillipollas" - everybody nodded and laughed and then got on with the paper.

Property speculation in Spain had less to do with foreigners than the arrival of the Euro. A lot of Black money was laundered in property, flash classic cars etc. Just about teh ONLY way for prices to FALL as opposed to drop a bit will be a major alteration to the tax rules. And that will hit MANY non-resident ex-pats if it happens. One hears things!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crookesey said:


> The Costa Blanca is very different, where we will be staying in September is a very select area with large villas set in huge gardens with the obligatory pools. Apart from a handful of landowners who were the farmers who sold their land to the developers and now live in their old finca's, albeit without the land, practically everyone is British, Scandanavian, Dutch, German, Belgium etc.
> 
> You have to drive many km2's inland to find the indigenous Spanish in their run down fincas and village houses. They have clapped out vehicles, and don't dress in the way the Spanish do in your area. I rarely see a Spaniard in an expensive restaurant, have a look weekdays at the amount of Spanish in the students restaurant in the La Fonda Hotel in Benalmadena Pueblo if you are in the area (An absolute must, by the way).
> 
> Property prices are a lot cheaper on the Costa Blanca so folk aren't having to scrimp and save so much. You also get a lot more for your money and wonderful mountain urbanisations with magnificent sea views. 400,000 Euros buys a 4 bed, 3 bath villa, 150 - 200m2 build on a 2000m2 plot with a large heated pool , naya, garage and landscaped gardens. I've seen 2 bed apartments on the Mijas Costa priced at 300,000 Euros, and they have sold.



I've been to the costa blanca as well, I have friends who live in Torrevieja, Cuisada and Daya Nueva, I think the Spanish are just as wealthy there, they just dont show it or care the way the Brits do. I dont think you could "give" a lot of the properties that the expats live in to the Spanish, they simply have different living requirements and ideals

I dont think we should be fooled into believing the Spanish are poor. they just dont appreciate the same things in life that many Brits do

Jo
Jo


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## Pasanada (Feb 5, 2008)

I've yet to meet a poor Spaniard, all my Spanish friends own BMW's, Mercedes and the such and normally have many properties (my Guardia mate owns 4 properties!!!)

Spaniards know the system better than your average Joe Expat hence they play the system to THEIR advantage.....and why not??


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

I think you all over complicate the issue.
Putting it simply,there are only Two categories of Spanish,

1.--The rich ones who know or are related to the right people
2.--The poor ones who dont and arn`t.


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi again,

The concept of wealth is like that of beauty, "in the eye of the beholder"

Personally I think there are wealthy people in every country, but there are many more Spaniards that cannot afford to get on the property ladder in Spain, than those Brits that cannot get on the property ladder in the UK

The UK also has a more complex economy than Spain and its an economy that will bounce back strongly, as will the pound. Whereas it could be argued that Spain had somewhat over-relied on the housing market to boost (if not drive) their economy and therefore the current situation with the Spanish housing market could end in tears for many Spanish & Expats alike.

I might add that whilst the Spanish economy will eventually bounce back, its hardly likely to happen anytime soon and thus buying a property in Spain, now or in the near future, could well turn out to be a very unwise decision - financially.

I agree with those who have suggested its better to rent NOW and wait for a year or two to see what happens with the property prices.

Regards, Dave


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SunnySpain said:


> Hi again,
> 
> The concept of wealth is like that of beauty, "in the eye of the beholder"
> 
> ...



Fair comment Dave. we're renting in Spain for now and have a house in the UK which we rent out. It works well cos we get more in than we pay out. When the market looks right here we will buy.

As for the wealth or not of the Spanish, in general, I dont think there's any fear that they would want to buy into the expat communities or properties, its just not their scene

Jo


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Jojo,

"As for the wealth or not of the Spanish, in general, I dont think there's any fear that they would want to buy into the expat communities or properties, its just not their scene"

Thats most definitely true, most Spaniards I know would not dream of spending time in expat communities. They would much rather invest in buying a second home in the North of Spain, which is where many of those from Madrid go on their holidays to escape the dry heat of Madrid.

That means that Spain needs more expats (and quickly), if they are to sell off the many newly built properties on the Costa del Sol (and the other Costas) that remain empty. Who knows, with prices dropping and all, maybe many newbie expats will be drawn towards making the plunge and snapping them up.

Its possible, but I personally doubt it very much and can see property prices taking a big hit, especially on the Costa del Sol in the next 12 months.

Maybe the back end of 2009 or 2010/11 will be a good time to buy, but in the meantime we will rent as we cannot afford to buy the property we are currently renting and the rent is only 650 Euros a month for a brand new 4 bed duplex.

Saying that, we are looking at moving and I think we can get a similar property for less rent in the areas we are looking into. For example, we have already been offered another brand new property for the same price, a 3 bed house with a garden and a double garage (and the materials are of a very high quality).

Regards, Dave


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## dizzy (Jul 12, 2008)

Sunny, where in espana are you currently looking at rents that cheap. We are heading over in 3 weeks to area just 50km north of Barca and the best I can find is a very old casa in small village for 550 a month but that was hard to find and also relative to where we would be likely to find work about 30 mins minimum to anyway by train.

I think many valid points have been made in this thread regarding spaniards and their housing situation but none more so than the comment about how the spanish percieve their wealth. They don't see themselves as wealthy because they individually aren't - collectively within families by western standards they may be considered wealthy but how many of you know a spaniard who owns half a town and still dresses and acts like a labourer. I know a few and I have only been there once for a few weeks. Just my thoughts.

Kym


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Yes ...... can someone explain to me the weekend exodus from the cities, where they own a property, to the coast where they own a holiday property. 

The motorways here are really busy every Friday and Sunday night full of people coming down to their seaside hideaways.

Now in the UK it wasn't my experience that masses of people owned coastal homes that they drove off to every weekend, but from what I understand its quite common here for Spaniards to own two homes


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Dizzy,

Catalunya is one of the most expensive parts of Spain, the rental costs are therefore higher, as is pretty much everything.

However, having said that, it is posible to find a quality property at a good price, but it depends where you are looking to live. Inland is obviously cheaper, such as Manresa, Terrasa, Rubi, Granollers, La Garriga or Vic.

You can find a quality property in those areas for 600-700 Euros (if you look hard).

Small towns near to Girona tend to a little cheaper. Some coastal areas are now cheaper also e.g. Villanova y Geltru or nearby, but not Sitges (very expensive).

Anyway, hope that helps, if you need more info send me a private message.

Regards, Dave


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Hi Stravinsky,

Yes its correct, many Spaniards own 2 or more properties. They either inherited a property or they did good themselves and bought and paid for a property.

Once they own a property 100% its possible to get a second property based on the equity of the first property. Many then rent out the second property to cover the mortage costs of 6 to 12 months rental payments against the mortgage), then the bank will allow them to purchase a third property and so on.....

There are obvious risks (such as the tennant not paying or doing a runner) but there are also many benefits (e.g. having someone else pay off your mortgage, whilst your properties gain value over time.

Many Spaniards (as you say) try to escape the city as often as possible as most of them lived in villages or small towns prior to moving to the city for work (as Chris pointed out earlier); especially those that live in the centre of Spain as the dry heat can be quite unbearable for several months on end.

I hope that helps.

Regards, Dave


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> I think you all over complicate the issue.
> Putting it simply,there are only Two categories of Spanish,
> 
> 1.--The rich ones who know or are related to the right people
> 2.--The poor ones who dont and arn`t.


My wife's family are most certainly amongst Cat2. There relatives were on the side that LOST in the '30s. Simple villagers and were denied even the most basic of what in the UK would be considered necessary. Inc Schooling. Even so they had a village property, they were keeping for their daughters. They were told (by their daughters) to sell it whilst it was still standing. 

But it's not THAT simple. There are a lot of rich folk who are NOT in Cat1. I'm not into social stereotyping - BUT They're loyal friends and fierce enemies. Fuedal. 

There are LOADS of poor "connected" ones too. Equally I can name unconnected shepherds who own MASSES of land. 

Ex-pats generally don't get in this world - we're all "Guiris" and therefore not Spanish. Not to be trusted at all.

If you ask an AVERAGE Spaniard where he's from - He'll name some village in Asturias etc even though he was born and raised in the city he lives in. It's especially common in Madrid. 

If you had to LIVE in Madrid City (esp in summer) you'd know why they disperse in summer. Esp before AirCon was so common. In the countryside of Madrid it's MUCH better - esp North and West. Lots had (before the roads improved) summer homes where I now live.

Masses of Spaniards buy on the med coast too. Not all in Madrid leave in summer to find rain and cold. In fact the heavy traffic is towards Alicante/Valencia.

As for "getting on the ladder" - mmmmmm. When I first came here (with it has to be said a VERY Teutonic mind set) I was fairy interested in the fact that most of my girlfriends (now wife) friends still lived at home. There were iirc several reasons. Amongst them:-

1) Was a bit frowned upon that a girl would head off and live un-chaperoned. Forget not that "not being Catholic" was basically not possible during teh Generals time. My sister in law for example does not have a religious name - it took a court case to get her baptised!. And forget not that demographically Spain was (maybe still is) very female populated - It was 7 to one - when I arrived it was still 4 to one.

2) Spanish mums like to have their kids close. Daughters helped with the house too - see point one. My wife went to work in Valencia as an local manager - when she came back to Madrid to take on HR for the group - Her mum fully expected here to move back in - and was seriously annoyed she said NO.

3) Spanish lads went of for Mil service. 

5) Loads went to University after - something impossible without having connections before.

4) With the erosion of the "old regime" and the extreme liberalisation of A LOT OF THINGS - there was an explosion of street culture here. You could a last sit in groups above 5 outside without the GC wading in. 

It was a serious social movement and MANY were deeply involved. These folk had no interest in being home owners - that was too institutional. And cost money they wanted for having fun. Some are now regretting this lapse in concentration. 

Real new youngsters/immigrants are simply unprepared for it all as they don't have that "Madrid Movement" thing but want to emulate the freedoms - then realise they cant have it all.

5) Yes money was an issue for some - but even those with cash deferred setting up until married.

Also one point. When I first went to Germany - it was still totally normal there to rent and not buy too. TAX laws changed that. When I left Germany they were still almost happier in a flat (with spare cash) rather than a house.

You CANNOT define why the Spanish do things from a purely BRITISH (or whatever) standpoint. I've been living here full time for a goodish while now. Living amongst Spaniards (basically as a Spaniard) and now as a "near enough" Spanish Civil Servant. 

They do NOT see things as the British do - NOT AT ALL. They are also HORRENDOUS SNOBS - but not about things many Brits would see as snobby. The Catalans are maybe a bit closer to other European countries in many aspects.

Here's a thought - How many Brits of moderate income have a Cleaning help or Gardener? - I don't know many - My dad's pretty well off, and getting on, so a guy comes once a fortnight - but around him everybody (and they're solicitors/lawyers/MD's etc) do their own gardening & housework. Here it's pretty common to have help - even if you're not wealthy. Not VERY common but it happens a fair bit. We've recently begun to have a cleaning lady weekly for 4 hours. It's a major portion of our income - but..............

I know many Spaniard for example PREFER flats because it's EASIER to look after - not Just cheaper. More time for "going out".


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> My wife's family are most certainly amongst Cat2. There relatives were on the side that LOST in the '30s. Simple villagers and were denied even the most basic of what in the UK would be considered necessary. Inc Schooling. Even so they had a village property, they were keeping for their daughters. They were told (by their daughters) to sell it whilst it was still standing.
> 
> But it's not THAT simple. There are a lot of rich folk who are NOT in Cat1. I'm not into social stereotyping - BUT They're loyal friends and fierce enemies. Fuedal.
> 
> ...


Interesting post Chris,
I live in a small country place amongst a mixture of mosty Spanish rural folk and a few weekenders from Valencia. I have found them all very friendly,down to earth and ordinary people with no airs and graces.
I do however come across a few on my travels who are extremely well healed,go to the finest bodegas and drive the latest Merc or whatever.
Maybe your experiences and impressions are much different in the big city and I am curious to know in what sense you consider the Spanish to be "horrendously snobbish"?
I travelled extensively in Spain quite a few year ago,mostly avoiding big cities and looking for very remote places.I came across a few tiny unsignposted villages at the end of dirt tracks in the hills which absolutely amazed me.
It almost looked like time had stood still for 60 or more years.
Many inhabitants were obviously inbred and it almost seemed that few, if any had ever been even to the next village let alone seen the outside world.
I wondered since if it was some sort of after effect of the civil war that had left them somewhat fearful of venturing from their villages into the out side world.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

When I see how long and hard some Spanish folk work in their family businesses I consider that they deserve some wealth at the end of it. I don't look at cars when assessing potential wealth, cars are relatively cheap these days and car loans are easy to get if you are in work or have other income.

The British amuse me with their perceptions of who is wealthy and who is not. The guy who changes his Merc every 2 years will probably have less wealth than the guy who keeps his for 10 years. Throwing money around for all to see is no guide to wealth, someone told me years ago that there is only one way to accertain with 100% certainty someones wealth, wait for the reading of their will.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

SunnySpain said:


> Hi Stravinsky,
> 
> Yes its correct, many Spaniards own 2 or more properties. They either inherited a property or they did good themselves and bought and paid for a property.
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave

I noticed here that most of the beach front houses are owned by Spaniards, and seem to sit empty for 11 months of the year. Then they open them up in August and stay for the month. Seems such a waste, but I'm told they just dont like renting them out!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crookesey said:


> When I see how long and hard some Spanish folk work in their family businesses I consider that they deserve some wealth at the end of it. I don't look at cars when assessing potential wealth, cars are relatively cheap these days and car loans are easy to get if you are in work or have other income.
> 
> The British amuse me with their perceptions of who is wealthy and who is not. The guy who changes his Merc every 2 years will probably have less wealth than the guy who keeps his for 10 years. Throwing money around for all to see is no guide to wealth, someone told me years ago that there is only one way to accertain with 100% certainty someones wealth, wait for the reading of their will.



Lifes too short to care about who's got what - One things for sure, you cant take it with you, so spend it on the things that are important to you


Jo


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## rjnpenang (Feb 20, 2008)

jojo said:


> Lifes too short to care about who's got what - One things for sure, you cant take it with you, so spend it on the things that are important to you
> 
> 
> Jo


I´ll drink a glass of vino tinto to that, cheers Jo. Rob


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## EP GAZZ (Aug 26, 2008)

Is the market in Spain really more catastrophic than say USA.

We live in a good area and prices are relatively high, what seems to have happened here is that people have had to be more realistic with there asking price but houses are still moving.

If you live in parts of say Ohio the market is a disaster but thats far more due to the mass exodus of people because traditional industries have closed.

The unkown for me looking from the outside with Spain that could be very different is the excess housing stock of new builds simply unoccupied since construction.

Is it really that bad there or have the good times just stopped rolling?


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

crookesey said:


> When I see how long and hard some Spanish folk work in their family businesses I consider that they deserve some wealth at the end of it. I don't look at cars when assessing potential wealth, cars are relatively cheap these days and car loans are easy to get if you are in work or have other income.
> 
> The British amuse me with their perceptions of who is wealthy and who is not. The guy who changes his Merc every 2 years will probably have less wealth than the guy who keeps his for 10 years. Throwing money around for all to see is no guide to wealth, someone told me years ago that there is only one way to accertain with 100% certainty someones wealth, wait for the reading of their will.


Very true Crookesay,
All that glitters is not gold..--Lots of flashy stuff bought on the never-never.
No doubt there are quite a few raggy assed Spaniards and some Brits sitting on a fortune without worrying too much about it or caring what impression they give to the rest of the World as regards their wealth ,which is after all not the most important thing in life,although it does help somewhat at times.
Ive also come across a few rich Brits who dress as rough as a badger and always keep a rusty old banger on the drive, just to impress the inland revenue man.
They of course are usually the crafty ones who are able to conduct much of their business in readies.No doubt they will have their counterparts in Spain.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> Maybe your experiences and impressions are much different in the big city and I am curious to know in what sense you consider the Spanish to be "horrendously snobbish"?


Well I don't live in the big city - Madrid's a province too. The comment is really my wife's and she is Spanish. By snobbish I don't mean obnoxious and standoffish. More private "upmanship" - generally it's not offensive - but sometimes it gets damn close..

For example - there was a time (maybe it still occurs in the centre too) when no self respecting person would be seen getting off the bus and walking. Oh no they get a taxi to the restaurant door. I know folk who'd take a bus to close by - and then get a taxi for the remaining 500 yards. They weren't poor - they'd take the bus because it passed their door. But also stopped where a friend might see them. Dumb really. But had to arrive in a taxi (or drive) or face "those looks".

I've been fortunate here to have moved or still move in many levels of Spanish society too - for alls sorts of reasons. Except the ones who get on "Corazon TV" - and I've no wish to meet them really. I came here with a very non-Spanish view of life and I've mellowed. Most are very sensible & generous folk - but there's something else - but it's between them. 

They are VERY regionally snobbish that I will tell you. Somebody from place "X" has more kudos then place "Y". Within Extremadura - it is different whether you're from Badajoz or Guadalalupe. Ask one. And as for coming from another region - like say Cataluña. 

Remote villages - Oh yes we know about them. 

My wifes village (and yes she was actually born there), I've yet to visit as just about 95% of the population is a relation - and I'm worried the older ones'll have a heart attack when the see I'm not _"Castellano"_ - worse still _"Hijo de la Gran Bretaña"_. 

Some know - and at weddings etc the bold ones have even ventured close.


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## Pasanada (Feb 5, 2008)

Hahaha! Loved your last 2 paragraphs, Chris!

I think snobbery exists in every nation, Jones' are Jones', regardless of your country of birth; I've seen it with Europeans, Canadians, Americans and Arabs.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Pasanada said:


> I think snobbery exists in every nation, Jones' are Jones', regardless of your country of birth


'Ere, dont start dragging my family into it


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## Pasanada (Feb 5, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> 'Ere, dont start dragging my family into it


Tee hee!


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

EP GAZZ said:


> The unkown for me looking from the outside with Spain that could be very different is the excess housing stock of new builds simply unoccupied since construction.
> 
> Is it really that bad there or have the good times just stopped rolling?


Really it's the Ball stopped rolling - because the folk pushing uphill have stopped for a rest. But they've left it well and truly chocked believe me. It's almost a plus to leave them half finished rather than finished but unoccupied or not started.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

crookesey said:


> The guy who changes his Merc every 2 years will probably have less wealth than the guy who keeps his for 10 years.


 Really - thinking about it - I only know one Spaniard who swaps cars often. It's a good friends father in law. He buys the latest top S class Merc every year (trading the old one in - with nominal mileage) - But simply because he likes them (he spent an hour once showing me around one - but like a nipper with a new new toy - pure fascination with knobs/gadgets etc) - he's so old I'm not sure if HE actually drives any more. My friend is in his late '60's. His in-laws are in that OLD money group - About 15% of the M45 around goes through land that was theirs - but they've loads more. 

Our Discovery is only 14 years old - a good 10 years more in it yet!.

btw - I'll admit to snobbery - Private snobbery - like - I maintain my vehicles, because I do it better. My neighbour is better at it though. Ah but I have a lathe and end mill and can make bits. True but he welds better - Grrrrrr . See?! We're great friends btw too.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crookesey said:


> The British amuse me with their perceptions of who is wealthy and who is not. The guy who changes his Merc every 2 years will probably have less wealth than the guy who keeps his for 10 years.



I dont necessarily agree with this. My OH does a lot of driving for his work, he loves nice cars, theyre his passion... any cars ( he collects classic cars as a hobby and subscribes to 100s of car magazines - he's totally obssessed with cars). He changes his top of the range "whatever" car every two years or so, not to show off, but cos he gets a good deal if the car is under two years old and still has a warrantee when he exchanges it for the later model. In fact even I (who doesnt give a fig about cars) can see its possibly an economical way of doing it

jo


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Personally I see no reason to have a decent car in Spain ........ mines been scraped in car parks twice in a month. I have a sports car I bought from the UK that sadly I'm very careful about where I'm parking when I now rarely take it out!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Personally I see no reason to have a decent car in Spain ........ mines been scraped in car parks twice in a month. I have a sports car I bought from the UK that sadly I'm very careful about where I'm parking when I now rarely take it out!


I totally agree, its actually nice not to worry, I can drive through the narrow streets and park anywhere! When I was in the UK driving OHs car, I was too frightened to even park, in case it got a scratch. 

My citroen here is filthy dirty (it doesnt matter how often or not I clean it, its always covered in dust!) and has several dents and scratches - OH cringes and calls it "the Spanish Dustcart" 

Jo


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## EP GAZZ (Aug 26, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> Really it's the Ball stopped rolling - because the folk pushing uphill have stopped for a rest. But they've left it well and truly chocked believe me. It's almost a plus to leave them half finished rather than finished but unoccupied or not started.


Think it's the same everywhere someone at home was saying that several developments in their area have stopped and the builders were only finishing social element of the projects.


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## Pasanada (Feb 5, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Personally I see no reason to have a decent car in Spain ........ mines been scraped in car parks twice in a month. I have a sports car I bought from the UK that sadly I'm very careful about where I'm parking when I now rarely take it out!


I've had my convertable for almost 2 years, apart from some twit bashing into the front of it in Parque Mediterraneo last year, it's still in perfect condition considering it's in Spain! Lol


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