# EXPATS mean well, but do all wrong in Portugal



## VaraHappy

Dear Expat community,
I'm Raka, an expat myself, been living in Portugal since 15 years and but also travel between my family in Switzerland, and my beach house in Brazil. I am writing here in hopes and to respectfully share my opinion, which is maybe not at all well to take in for the expat community. I will probably not accomplish much, this is not a rant, but maybe, maybe I can help YOU Expats, or at least some of you, in the med-to long-run.

First of all, the current Expats are unfortunately too blinded to see what is going on. Yesterday was the second time a waiter in restaurant held the Machine for me when it was to pay for my dinner, with the "TIP" page open and as I did not select a trip and went to proceed (more to this later), he, the younger Portuguese waiter, complained to my face, and lied, that it is a 10% tip I must leave.... I was awestruck and gave him an earful and called over the manager that thankfully was on my side and apologized and offered me desert for free and I heard him yell at the young waiter afterwards, that is, because the manager was an old school waiter, one that takes his profession serious, that is honored to serve guests, just like so many waiters in Portugal used to be, they worked because they loved opening up the fish in front of your table within 30 seconds, an art, to be protected by UNESCO, to serve you an amazing sea bass (Robalo), while preparing the fish for you without even one fishbone left to worry to bite into, an art, they loved to serve, it feels like an honor to be served, yes, to them I always leave a tip, but they do it because they LOVE their profession, and not because of tips.

Yet, I see Expats, tourists, etc, fall into the +10% must give tip.... they just throw money on the table, mean well, but completely screw up the mindset of the next generation.... all wrong, it is sad.

It continues.

Gym personal trainer: 40 Euros...., surf lessons, 60 euros an hour, kite surf, 80 euros-100 euros an hour.... it goes on, and expats and tourists just throwing the money without even thinking.

The quality is horrible, the service is now centered on as much money as possible and delivering a crap service, this is what Portugal is basically turning into. I walk my dog and see 3-4 vans filled with 10 students and foam surfboards, drive down to the beach and see the "surf instructors" (suddenly all are surf instructors) send the people in the cold water in worn out nasty old wet suits, catching foam while the instructors are not even feet in water, outside texting around, collecting 50 euros per student an hour, x 30.... 

Basically, it all got commercialized. Most instructors are not even designated instructors, they are just taking your money and that is not surfing instruction, sorry, that is just making money and teaching you nothing. Anyone can teach anyone catching the foam of waves. I will not even get into kite-surfing etc.

Then, after my wife went through breast cancer successfully, I was looking for therapy sessions for her. So lucky I found the generation of instructor that had a university degree in PE, and did countless seminars, and offered a fair price. That person even complained how the younger generation with no degrees, nothing, not even some online seminars, are B.S.-ing around to clients, asking twice to three times more, and the clients (all expats, no Portuguese would ever pay for those prices) they all pay without asking because in their mindset "Wow, still 30% cheaper than back home!!!". Well, the way this is going, trust a local here, it soon will be more expensive.

Portugal has never been so horrible in providing services while being so expensive. I call a number to fix my house lock, he hears a form of an accent, he wants 90 Euros just to come. I have to ask my Portuguese neighbour to call, the price is 30 euros + material averaging 10-15 euros if a Lock must be replaced.

Portugal was NEVER like this !!!!! What is happening !!!!??????? 

Stop paying all those absurd prices, inform yourselves, stop throwing your money out of the window, because people are already abusing and quality is dropping!!!!

The worst situation however was when I was looking now for a place to rent for family members that want to maybe move down here. I walk into several places that are already asking for laughable rent prices, but worse even, I walk into dirty kitches, toilets with crapstains "oh don't worry, the owner will solve all if you decide to rent", and then "owner wants 1 year paid in advance because you have no history in Portugal plus he wants bank statements from past 2 years from overseas etc", I mean, for real? Yes ! People play along !!! I had told the real estate person "no way, tell owner to clean the house first". I cannot walk in dirty houses, dirty kitchen, mold stinking rooms, horrible, for those absurd prices even, it is out of control, really, out of control.

Dear expats, I only have one humble request. Can you please, for the sake of this country, get informed better in terms of the traditions of this country and demand what you wish. It is normal in portugal to demand, to trade, to find a mid-point, it is part of the culture and tradition, but don't blindly throw your money immediately just because it is 20-30% cheaper than home because in fact you are cheated on and worse, not being provided a good service that few others still provide for charging you 70-80% less. 

The new generation is becoming completely lazy and not wanting to provide the services that their forerunners were honored and happy to provide. But Portugal is headed the wrong way and who will ultimately suffer the most at the end? The Portuguese, the ones that now are suddenly on mortgage, buying what they can't afford, because once everyone stops earning money here in these proportions (the time will come, soon, very soon), people will lose all they have, this country will fall into an even worse depression as back in 2008/09, it will be catastrophic. Yes, your house that is worth 350,000 euros that you now pay 750,000 euros for, will be worth again 350,000 if you are lucky.

Sorry if I have insulted anyone, was not my intention, I am also not really a forum person, but this thread was in hopes to maybe get some expats to take a minute and do a bit more research before immediately being at the mercy of whomever they do "business" with, because you are being exploited, big time, and the honest Portuguese is paying the price for it.

Either way, I still hope you will have a wonderful experience here, and welcome to this beautiful place with its amazing people and good luck to you!


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## Strontium

You seem to have found a different Portugal to the one I live in but if you have a problem with your Portugal then don't live here, go to your Swiss Shack or Brasilian Shed and don't come back ?????????????? QED Porblem solved.


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## VaraHappy

Strontium said:


> You seem to have found a different Portugal to the one I live in but if you have a problem with your Portugal then don't live here, go to your Swiss Shack or Brasilian Shed and don't come back ?????????????? QED Porblem solved.


By your reply and you writing "Brasilian" instead of "Brazilian" I can only assume you are a pretender and a Portuguese native, one of many I am referring to above, so here is a clear message reply to you in your own language regarding countering your racist insult: /SNIP/


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## Strontium

Apologies, but you seem to misunderstand, maybe my English is insufficient but having lived in República Federativa do Brasil and in St. Gallen both for many years before choosing to live here in a very modest stone semi derelict building amongst some of the the most wonderful local people (who don't seem to be obsessed by money) i have ever met I can forgive you your ignorance. I have never been called a "racist" before so either, please, delineate the words in my post which support your accusation or apologise for the accusation. 

I rephrase my first post as thus. If you do not like living in Portugal then do not live in Portugal.


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## xabiaxica

VaraHappy said:


> By your reply and you writing "Brasilian" instead of "Brazilian" I can only assume you are a pretender and a Portuguese native, one of many I am referring to above, so here is a clear message reply to you in your own language regarding countering your racist insult: /SNIP/


I see no racist comments in Strontium's post.


Please be aware that posts must be made in English & Engish ONLY.


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## robc

I see lots and lots of narrative concerning the problems but absolutely no diagnostic.
The problems are not just in Portugal but they can and do extend into the rest of the Mediterranean countries although I cannot comment about Greece because I have not been there.
So why has this happened?, basically it is the corrosive effects of a "one size fits all" Economic model, reinforced by the German attitude to austerity so that they have applied beggar thy neighbour fiscal policy since 2005 .......this is the result.

It is a shame but rather depressingly I see no way back

Rob


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## ViaVinho

I agree with VH. But, sometimes expats find themselves in a difficult situation where they get taken advantage of but are unable to find alternatives. In my own case, I recently moved to a different town and needed some renovation work done on my newly bought house. Intending to support the local economy and hiring someone locally I was overcharged by a good 100 % for the renovations. As I did not expect this and did not have ready alternatives, I paid. Clearly, I was thought to be an easy target by virtue of being a stranger. Now that the immediate urgency is resolved, I can be a bit more careful with future projects. However, I can see the OP’s point that mindlessly acceding to outrageous behavior can only encourage such behavior. This is to the ultimate disadvantage of those benefitting from easy money as it encourages the wrong set of skills to be developed and those providing easy money because more will increasingly be demanded. More broadly, it is to the ultimate disadvantage of everyone. A fair exchange is the best exchange and can hopefully be negotiated between sensible parties.

Speaking of fairness, a response to the OP’s post, despite the latter’s efforts to be reasonable, appeared most rude, though not racist. To my reading, basically telling them to f— off. Clearly, I'm not the only one to have found the reply offensive. There was no attempt to address the OP’s concerns. An apology should be forthcoming - the failure of which would simply confirm the first negative impression.
VV


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## Mac62

And I thought I was going to escape the clutches of Capitalism by moving to Portugal

Living here in the USA for the past 30 odd years, and originally having moved there from the UK, it took me countless rants and being submitted to insults of being cheap for arguing against tipping. My reply then and still, is, pay people a living wage, but also charge a fair price for your product. I should not have to pay for a product AND supplement the wages of you or your employee. Not only does it cause an adversarial experience between the shopper and the employee, and, as an employee, it must be difficult having to do that day in day out to survive. It begs the question, who should we tip?, police officers, fire people, social workers, teachers, bureaucrats, politicians, doctors, you, me? 

As for the original poster's post, I have not arrived in Portugal yet, but I suspect he may be right, but it's not just a Portugal phenomenon, it's just Capitalism slowly crushing the fabric of all societies. What was the comment of the the Greek finance minister's on his TED Talk, "Capitalism is incompatible with democracy." I'd venture to say Capitalism is incompatible with humanity:ranger:


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## robc

Mac62 said:


> And I thought I was going to escape the clutches of Capitalism by moving to Portugal
> 
> I'd venture to say Capitalism is incompatible with humanity:ranger:


You wait until you fall in to the hands of socialism......you will wish you were back in a good old capitalist state.....think BES, Caixa Geral, Vale De Lobo, Presidential enquiry in to whole stole the money meant for the fire victims, cash for schengen, Pavilhao Atlantique........shall I go on?????

Capitalism is a whole lot better than socialism which rewards ineptitude and covers up illegal practices.

Carpe pessoas 

Mixed languages so my apologies 

Rob


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## smudges

Those of us who saw how well socialism worked in England in the 70s can only thank the stars for capitalism and Mrs T. I for one will never forget the stink from all the uncollected rubbish bags in Leicester Square and that's only the beginning of the list I could make.


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## Mac62

As Ricky Gervais says "I should have left it"

Yes, I also lived in Britain through the 70's. And I remember my father on the picket lines. I also remember this; https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-strike-thatcher-real-enemy-within-extremism

Because we all know it was those dirty scabby Socialists of Wall Street, with their diamond encrusted donkey jackets, riding around on their sequined Pit ponies that almost brought down all the world's economies, left people homeless, and wiped out pensions, and that's just in the Western societies. Next you'll be telling me that Trump's favourite past time is reading Marxist graphic novels to the separated children of deported immigrants!

All hail the Historical Revisionists, or is it Recidivists! As for all the Portuguese scandals, it sounds like it's all pure greed (Capitalism's ultimate destination) rather than anything to do with Socialism. 

Anyway, at least the footy season is almost here!


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## MikeItMo

To be fair, in Mac's first post, he didn't refer to socialism. It might be inferred by some, an axiomatic conclusion; if not capitalism, it must be socialism as an alternative.

I found OP interesting and I've heard similar anecdotes about other countries; inflated prices for ill-informed foreign arrivals, tourists included in some places.


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## robc

The problem with socialism is that it is the perfect society construct right up to the moment that you run out of someone else's money.

Capitalism, Socialism.............none are perfect and never will be.

Rob


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## baldilocks

robc said:


> The problem with socialism is that it is the perfect society construct right up to the moment that you run out of someone else's money.
> 
> Capitalism, Socialism.............none are perfect and never will be.
> 
> Rob


One of the problems as soon as one uses the Socialism word is that so many people, more especially those from the US, don't know the difference between Socialism and Communism, thereby confusing the two, as Bernie Sanders found out.


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## Mac62

Don't I know it Baldilocks! I was playing golf (I know, truly decadent for a Socialist, but not enough to lose my party card ) the other day, and the guy I was playing with made a disparaging remark about Hilary Clinton, I told him I was hoping to vote for Bernie, being as I'm a Socialist. The look he gave me was as if I'd just defecated in his head cover and put it back on his driver! As for Communism, we've actually never seen it realize it's full potential, if that is possible, since the Russian revolution was hijacked by Stalin; Chinese Communism, same thing with Mao.

I've decided I like the Scandinavian approach to Socialism and I propose calling it Scandinavialism!, so robc and the others can get on board  Another article I know, but I think the Scandinavians practice true Social Altruism, Wouldn't that be wonderful, only with 330 days of sunshine?!! 

https://www.thrillist.com/travel/nation/why-scandinavians-are-happiest-people-in-the-world

Actually, who invented bloody tipping?!


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## paramonte

You got be joking....

Before Socialism Portugal had NO NHS (I repeat no NHS), children would go to school barefoot, milk was a luxury, a bunch of rich families ruled the banks and the country. The actual socialist government achieved the lowest unemployment rate since 2008, paid back the horrible salary cuts and is struggling to increase minimal wage. Is there corruption: YES. Is it higher then the capitalist governments we had before :NO. ASK CDS the right wing party that cut forestry guards less then 50% a few years back: were are they now?


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## Strontium

You lot - just stop pontificating.
Portugal has a recent, ie last 100 years, history which is unusual but relevant to it's development into the nation that is is now.
'Tis complex but Wikipedia simplifies it to the Estado Novo and he Salazer era which still has repercussions in present day Portugal. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_de_Oliveira_Salazar


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## Mac62

Strontium said:


> You lot - just stop pontificating.
> 
> 
> If it's good enough for the Pope, it's good enough for me!
> 
> :focus: Worked my whole life and never got tipped once.


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## paramonte

Salazar was the architect of a nation with low educational standards because he was afraid of opposition. He wanted people to mind their business and those who would stick out their head were up to a lot of trouble. The generation above 50 years old in Portugal and perhaps their kids still have a bit of the Salazar regime consequences embroided. From 1961 when the colonial war began he had to deal with a pluricontinental war and he run foward sending thousands for a war that some classify worst than Vietnam. Keeping the empire kept him pretty busy but he NeVer traveled outside Portugal . His backwards vision saw the empire as one country only: everybody had an I'd card portraying Republica Portuguesa and when president Kennedy challenged him Salazar told he would change the Capital of the empire from Lisbon to Luanda in Angola. Poverty was flippant here, ignorance applauded paternalism also. The school curricula was the same for all the empire AND the timetables as well, regulated by the continental one meaning classes during the hot African summer....


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## siobhanwf

Mac62 said:


> Actually, who invented bloody tipping?!


 


The practice of tipping began in Tudor England. "By the 17th century, it was expected that overnight guests to private homes would provide sums of money, known as vails, to the host's servants. Soon afterwards, customers began tipping in London coffeehouses and other commercial establishments".

Found this... strangely PORTUGAL not included.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity


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## siobhanwf

Just found this when reading through a few websites.... Understanding Portuguese Tipping & Gratuities - When Do You Tip in Portugal? - Totally Spain Travel Blog

and to me makes perfect sense :clap2:


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## Mac62

:clap2:

Thank Christ it wasn't the House of Stewart or I'd never live it down

Cheers Siobhanwf!


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