# Sao Martinho do Porto I've been swindled by our letting agent.



## spudmachinegun

Hi there,

I have an apartment in portugal (sao martinho do porto to be precise). I had been letting it out through a woman who owns a company in the area.

She's since decided that actually she won't give us any of the money which she collected for renting out our apartment. As it's a 3 bed holiday let I reckon she must have pocketed 1000s of Euros of mine, and as I say she refuses to pay me.

I've talked to a portuguese solicitor who actually knows the woman because she tried to rip the solicitor off too. The solicitor basically told me we'd have to pay a load of money to get her to court and even then it's her word against ours unfortunately.

I've also since heard plenty of other stories of people she has ripped off and rather gallingly she has actually opened a bar in the town so now any time I go on holiday I'll be reminded of what's happened.

So firstly when I visit I plan on visiting her bar and making sure her punters know what they are dealing with. I'd also like to put up a website so anyone googling her or her pubs name will find a website telling my story.

What I'd like to know is how legal is this. If I stick to my story and tell the truth as I know it can I get into any trouble?

Also if I've heard rumours and print them online with a very clear disclaimer that they are just rumours then is that ok?

Has anyone had any experience with a rogue trader like this and somehow getting the word out so others don't get ripped off?

thanks


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## paramonte

What a *****!
You may incur in difamação (slander) if the ***** takes you to court and you can not stand your grounds. However you may do your website telling your story up and down without actually putting there your true ID, use nicks etc, and make sure the website author can not be traced back to you. Create the site and edit it when on a public network etc, although even if do it at home it requires a lot of legal muscle to get webside hosts to be compelled to report. 

Letting agencies are generally not our friends, their interest is gone when they receive their fee, and may times even when there are other fees lined up for them


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## spudmachinegun

Hi Paramonte - what a ***** indeed!

Yeah I don't think I'm the only one she's ripped off. I googled her name and saw that she'd got trip advisor to remove a page claiming she was hiring out apartments without the owners knowledge and pocketing the cash. 

I was hoping maybe that other people might allow me to put their stories online too (anonymously if required) so we can at least stop this woman stealing more money from people in the area. As I said above she's opened a pub on the beach front and I have a funny feeling she'll be using it to find punters for this season's renting scam.

If anyone has been ripped off by an english woman in Sao Martinho do Porto I hope they contact me and hopefully we can stop this woman.


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## travelling-man

Sorry to hear about your being scammed. 

You can publish anything you like as long as you can PROVE what you say is absolutely true but if you can't prove it absolutely then the laws of internet libel come into play and they are many and varied and change from country to country and the best thing you can do is Google the subject yourself. 

As a general rule of thumb, the libeller can be prosecuted in any and every country the libel is viewable in and in some/many cases, so can your server company and sometimes, even the site owner of the site where the libel is published.

(FWIW) there's no end of info out there on the subject.


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## wink

Hard as it may be, I would put it down to experience and forget it. The law in Portugal appears to be very diverse. Not so long ago, I read of an Englishwoman who had reported her Portuguese lawyer to the Portuguese law society for malpractice and he promptly sued her for slander.


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## canoeman

If you also haven't registered your property for letting you might also be putting yourself at further risk of being fined by Camara and in bother with Financas and Social Security think long and hard before going "public" in any way that could affect you more than her


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## spudmachinegun

Hi guys, thanks for all the responses.

Not exactly what I want to hear but good advice. It's really annoying that she can just do this and get away with it, especially since I now have to go on holiday and walk past her bar which she says she's put a 1/4 million euros* into and feel sickened.

*trip advisor

Great. Holidays will be sooooo relaxing from now on.


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## canoeman

Maybe some friends could post reviews on her bar


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## anapedrosa

Posting you story, whether or not you name the person, certainly encourages folks to check references and not to assume that English means trust worthy.


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## siobhanwf

Please be very careful not to name!!!


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## canoeman

anapedrosa said:


> Posting you story, whether or not you name the person, certainly encourages folks to check references and not to assume that English means trust worthy.


Also to have contracts they protect both parties


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## AstonVilla

I spend a lot of time in Sao Martinho and everyone there knows this couple - her husband ***** has now disappeared and she's re-opened the Bar with someone else. They're bad news I'm afraid


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## AstonVilla

P.S. If you wish to continue Renting your apartment then I no someone who could help, and is reliable and trustworthy.


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## siobhanwf

Aston Villa please see my previous post.....

*Please be very careful not to name!!! *


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## spudmachinegun

@AstonVilla - thanks for the offer but we're just planning to use it ourselves now. 

Although it will be sickening since the apt is down that end of the town so I'll have to walk past her bar if I want to go anywhere.

Really annoying that she can get away with this.


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## maidentales

An unpleasant situation for you. In this case it seems the "law" is on the side of the criminal.

Be careful not to swear at that person.

I know someone who lost thousands after being sued. The person didn't pay the second instalment on a house purchase. The seller swore at that person. That person sued the seller and the person who was selling ended up loosing the entire house and having to pay thousands to the person who didn't pay for the second intalment on the property.

All because the seller swore at the person.

It's an unpleasant situation where the law isn't on the right side of morality.


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## canoeman

Without anything in writing or some sort of a formal contract and possibly not being legal then owner will always be at a disadvantage as they have little recourse to the law without landing themselves in it


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## AstonVilla

Ok. I'll maybe see you out there one day - but at another bar !


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## siobhanwf

maidentales said:


> An unpleasant situation for you. In this case it seems the "law" is on the side of the criminal.
> 
> Be careful not to swear at that person.
> 
> I know someone who lost thousands after being sued. The person didn't pay the second instalment on a house purchase. The seller swore at that person. That person sued the seller and the person who was selling ended up loosing the entire house and having to pay thousands to the person who didn't pay for the second intalment on the property.
> 
> All because the seller swore at the person.
> 
> It's an unpleasant situation where the law isn't on the right side of morality.


Sounds like a TALL story to me


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## canoeman

Sounds like one of those exaggerated urban stories very unlikely that someone will earn thousands successfully suing for being sworn at because the law doesn't really cover it

"In most cases, statements that can be construed as opinions aren't considered defamatory, because an opinion is subjective and can't be proved as objectively false."


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## siobhanwf

AstonVilla said:


> Ok. I'll maybe see you out there one day - but at another bar !


It`s a date


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## BodgieMcBodge

You are not the only one to have done this. One Ex-pat local here had a problem with double glazing supply and installation. Over a 6 month period there was no progress on having the faults rectified he (or she) bought a domain name of the company (after offering it to the company) and uploaded photos and text and scans of paperwork. Anyone doing a search will find this website which just shows evidence and expresses no opinion. I think the domain name and hosting cost nothing for one year and assume some potential customers to have looked elsewhere after seeing the website.


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## spudmachinegun

So I could get away with showing a picture of her and some emails from her saying she's renting the apt out on so-and-so a date and then state the truth which is that we have received no payment from her to date for these lettings.

What do you think?


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## canoeman

spudmachinegun said:


> So I could get away with showing a picture of her and some emails from her saying she's renting the apt out on so-and-so a date and then state the truth which is that we have received no payment from her to date for these lettings.
> 
> What do you think?


I wouldn't especially in Portugal where although what you say might be true you could still be at fault should she decide to pursue it, look at recent cases


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## siobhanwf

Unfortunately you will I think have to put this down to a very bad experience.
Try and put it behind you. Keep contacting asking for payment. But I think t hat might be like getting blood from a stone. If she feels that you have money outstanding refuse to pay.
Find yourself a reputable to look after your place. Try to do a much of the bookings yourself as possible.
I have been in this situation in two holiday homes I owned in the past (not here in Portugal) so I know what you are going through.


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## Helenterry

Hi,are you allowed to say this persons name here on the forum?


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## siobhanwf

helenterry said:


> hi,are you allowed to say this persons name here on the forum?


absolutely not!!!!


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## BodgieMcBodge

I'd have thought starting a interweb site and posting a mention on here would pass as there is already a precedent set in some of the recent postings on other topics which the mods have allowed.


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## spudmachinegun

@Helenterry

I'll tell you privately if you like. PM me


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## canoeman

spudmachinegun said:


> @Helenterry
> 
> I'll tell you privately if you like. PM me


Equally dangerous to you as posting name, I appreciate your feelings but your in a different scenario to people referred to by BodgieMcBodge and if you're not legal in the sense of property being licenced to rent and no contract or real proof of actual rental then you have very limited options of any direct action, might be galling but take siobhanwf advice


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## siobhanwf

BodgieMcBodge said:


> I'd have thought starting a interweb site and posting a mention on here would pass as there is already a precedent set in some of the recent postings on other topics which the mods have allowed.



If you do it will be removed


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## siobhanwf

Helenterry said:


> Hi,are you allowed to say this persons name here on the forum?



Helen I have sent you a PM


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## vanrouge

Never thought I would see a lynch mob formed so quickly. There are 2 sides to every story! Maybe we can hear more from the itinerant "Partner" in the business.


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## pipsan

AstonVilla said:


> I spend a lot of time in Sao Martinho and everyone there knows this couple - her husband ***** has now disappeared and she's re-opened the Bar with someone else. They're bad news I'm afraid


Yes he disappeared back to where he came from. I don't think she has opened the bar with anyone else - not what I have heard.


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## atherton22

If i were you I would go to see another solicitor and if it is your word against hers, then get the other people to make statements, the onus would then be on her to prove her innocence and slander is only relevant where the the accusation is untrue, the other people that were ripped off could also take action if she then said that they and you were liars, the law works both ways.


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## siobhanwf

Sorry Atherton but I don't think you have much knowledge of how things work in Portugal


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## atherton22

Your probably right my law degree means nothing in Portugal.
And as unfortunate as it is I am not the one that lost money to this person!!


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## pipsan

atherton22 said:


> If i were you I would go to see another solicitor and if it is your word against hers, then get the other people to make statements, the onus would then be on her to prove her innocence and slander is only relevant where the the accusation is untrue, the other people that were ripped off could also take action if she then said that they and you were liars, the law works both ways.


It might be worth looking at the comments on trip advisor


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## junemalu

pipsan said:


> It might be worth looking at the comments on trip advisor
> 
> Yes check out trip advisor the are a few of us on there too that have been ripped off by this couple. They broke up in October, he stole the keys to all the apartments, she never informed people. It seems he was living in our place for a while a and has done so much damage, the whole experience has cost us in excess of 2000 euros. And yes she has opened the bar as waves.


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## siobhanwf

A friend had the same problem.... 6 weeks and no rent paid and place left in a mess


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## nogard

Way lay both of them, one dark rainy night, and break their legs!


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## baldilocks

I'm always telling people on the Spanish forums that they are more likely to be ripped off by a fellow-countryman/woman than by a local, simply because if things get too hot, they can up sticks and move on whereas a local may well have family ties to the local area which makes it a bit harder.


The biggest mistake that people make is go to a fellow-countryperson solely because he or she speaks the same language. 
Get your own independent but competent translator/interpreter; the same goes for lawyers. 
Never take anything as gospel, especially if the person saying it has a vested interest. 
Get everything in writing, even if you don't understand the lingo (get it translated!) and get it checked out by a competent and independent legal-eagle before signing. 
Always do plenty of research into where you are thinking of moving to/what you are buying or renting/what you are contracting for - it is the easiest way to spot when someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes. 
If you have any doubts - walk away, another "best deal" will be along shortly.

Many of us have made the move to another country, to a new life without problems only because we went into it with our eyes wide open and took the simple precautions (or similar) I have just listed.


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## Robmaher

Hi, some important issues to bear in mind. 
Firstly, if you say something to a 3rd party which is defamatory or untrue, this could be slander. If the defamatory or untrue comments are written, as on a website or blog, this would then be Libel.
The laws of libel in the EU are often unclear, differ in inerpretation for each member state and are contantly changing due to the actions and judgements within the state courts. However, there as many cases of 'naming and shaming' on the internet, and some online research could help you avoid some of the pitfals.

All that said, slander and libel are ONLY applicable if your comments are false or malicious. If what you say is true, it should be perfectly ok to communicate this.
Here is the key - what is the definition of TRUE? If it boils down to her word against yours, it will be her duty to take you to court, and she will have the onus of proof. All the details of the complaint, including why you had made the claims (ie the 'rip-off') would probably be admissable as evidence on your part. You should also be able to call witnesses (your lawyer and others) to back up your side of things. You still would have to consider how much any likely defence of such action would cost you.

I expect she would avoid airing her dirty washing in court. 
Good luck!


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## siobhanwf

Robmaher as I have said before going down the road of taking someone to court in Portugal is sadly a very long winded affair. What is written in EU law has different perceptions in different countries. It can take many years to get any legal action anywhere here never mind the cost!


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## Robmaher

I agree wholeheartedly.


:rockon:


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## thegypsyinme

baldilocks said:


> I'm always telling people on the Spanish forums that they are more likely to be ripped off by a fellow-countryman/woman than by a local, simply because if things get too hot, they can up sticks and move on whereas a local may well have family ties to the local area which makes it a bit harder.
> 
> 
> The biggest mistake that people make is go to a fellow-countryperson solely because he or she speaks the same language.
> Get your own independent but competent translator/interpreter; the same goes for lawyers.
> Never take anything as gospel, especially if the person saying it has a vested interest.
> Get everything in writing, even if you don't understand the lingo (get it translated!) and get it checked out by a competent and independent legal-eagle before signing.
> Always do plenty of research into where you are thinking of moving to/what you are buying or renting/what you are contracting for - it is the easiest way to spot when someone is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
> If you have any doubts - walk away, another "best deal" will be along shortly.
> 
> Many of us have made the move to another country, to a new life without problems only because we went into it with our eyes wide open and took the simple precautions (or similar) I have just listed. "Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom.”
> ― Terry Pratchett OTE] :nod:


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## ggdentist

Yes I also know someone. She can arrange cleaners and handymen.


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