# how the healthcare reforms affect EU citizens in Spain & application for res. certs.



## xabiaxica

*how the healthcare reforms affect EU citizens in Spain & application for res. certs.*

this is the up to date info from the consulate

http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help...cess-healthcare/healthcare/healthcare-updates


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## Solwriter

> If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application. If you are a UK state pensioner for example, you may be able to use your S1 form to meet this requirement.


This bit looks new.
Forgive me if I'm wrong about this being new, but we did this the other way around, residence, then healthcare, because we needed the residencia card before we could apply at our local health centre.

It does need noting, as I would guess that many people apply for the S1 once they are all set up here, as they don't want to lose their UK entitlement until they have entitlement in Spain.


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> This bit looks new.
> Forgive me if I'm wrong about this being new, but we did this the other way around, residence, then healthcare, because we needed the residencia card before we could apply at our local health centre.
> 
> It does need noting, as I would guess that many people apply for the S1 once they are all set up here, as they don't want to lose their UK entitlement until they have entitlement in Spain.


yes, that is new - though 'old' as well, if you see what I mean - you had be able to prove healthcare in the old days when you had to 'apply for residencia'


& you're probably right about the S1 too - though since 'legally' you lose your UK entitlement as soon as you leave - it's probably best to sort it out ASAP

I suppose you could phone up for the form just before you leave for Spain or as soon as you arrive - I think it took about 10 days for the form to get here when I rang them for my dad's last year


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## Lunar-Tech

"If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application. "

Do they mean the NIE? 
If so, since you need a NIE to buy a holiday home surely all you will need is your EU healthcare card which doesn't address the permanent\ visitor problem!


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## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> yes, that is new - though 'old' as well, if you see what I mean - you had be able to prove healthcare in the old days when you had to 'apply for residencia'


That's why it caught my eye.
When we moved here in 2005, one of the things we had to prove was that we would be covered for healthcare, or if not, had a comprehensive private healthcare policy and money to cover things not covered by the terms of the policy.
(Its one of the reasons we delayed applying for residencia for a year )


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> That's why it caught my eye.
> When we moved here in 2005, one of the things we had to prove was that we would be covered for healthcare, or if not, had a comprehensive private healthcare policy and money to cover things not covered by the terms of the policy.
> (Its one of the reasons we delayed applying for residencia for a year )


in fact in those days, as long as you weren't wanting to use the 'NHS' as a pensioner would - you didn't even 'have to' apply for residencia

unlike now.........


I think I posted the other day about someone on a local fb group who has to get a 'green paper' to buy a car

their kids are in school here & they really should have registered long ago - but they didn't know they had to

I don't know if they have private heathcare, but I'm sure they don't have access to the state system because they would need the green paper for that - if they _don't _have private cover - what happens if they are now refused residency??


& I'm sure they aren't the only ones.......


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## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> I think I posted the other day about someone on a local fb group who has to get a 'green paper' to buy a car
> 
> their kids are in school here & they really should have registered long ago - but they didn't know they had to
> 
> I don't know if they have private heathcare, but I'm sure they don't have access to the state system because they would need the green paper for that - if they _don't _have private cover - what happens if they are now refused residency??
> 
> 
> & I'm sure they aren't the only ones.......


We actually know a family like that.
They have been here longer than us and kept putting it off and putting it off....
And now they are scared to apply in case they are asked why they have left it so late. And then there's all the tax implications...
We were concerned leaving it for a year, as we were told there was a three month rule, but luckily it was ok and no one asked any questions. 
But several years...!


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## snikpoh

Lunar-Tech said:


> "If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application. "
> 
> Do they mean the NIE?
> If so, since you need a NIE to buy a holiday home surely all you will need is your EU healthcare card which doesn't address the permanent\ visitor problem!


NO. The NIE is just an identity number.

What they refer to as 'residence certificate' is also known as a 'residencia' but is really just a green sheet of A4 paper (may be smaller in some places) showing that you have been added to the list of foreigners in Spain.


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> I don't know if they have private heathcare, but I'm sure they don't have access to the state system because they would need the green paper for that - if they _don't _have private cover - what happens if they are now refused residency??
> 
> 
> & I'm sure they aren't the only ones.......


Under EU rules........nothing . Under spanish law they can only be fined 300€ for 'failure to register'.

EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not. 

In any event no EU country can expel or deport an EU citizen except in the most exceptional circumstances, without an extradition warrant from another country. There are only a handful of such cases a year where an EU country of its own initiative tries to deport an EU citizen as "undesirable" throughout the entire EU and they invariably involve the most serious kind of activities, such as involvement in terrorism, etc. You actually cannot be "illegal" here in the sense I think you mean as you have an absolute right under EU law to live and work here and this cannot be denied to you on anything other than very limited grounds. The question of registration has no effect at all on this

We had all this out on another ,local, forum back early in the year. 
A direct request with various questions was made to the EU . The questions & replies are as below & the answers have 2  ( The original was in red from the eU but I'm lazy !)

""1. It states that Member States can demand that EU citizens register in a central register.
Therefore there is an obligation to obtain a Residence Certificate.
Questions arising from this are>-
a). How long do you have to reside in Spain before this requirement applies?

 3 Months.

How does this affect people who are intermittent visitors for 4 or 5 months?

 If they stay less than 3 months in any one visit, not at all. If they stay over 3 months per visit Spain has the right to require that they register. If they spend 10 months here with just one day a month out of the country (for example) there is no need to register. It is based on a single stay exceeding 3 months.

b). It states that you automatically become a permanent resident after 5 years BUT this ceases if you leave the country for 2 years.
What powers and duties does the host country have to CONFIRM continuing residence?
Is Spain in contravention of EU rules when asking people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country?

 Most categorically. See my other replies on this issue. They have no right (or power) to do this.

If the Spanish authorities do not have the power to ask people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country, how will the authorities be able to abide by the rule?

 What rule? I do not understand the question. It is no business of "the authorities" in the case of an EU citizen (it is different for non-EU citizens, however - unless they are married to an EU citizen, that is).

If the authorities do have the right to ask residence to CONFIRM their continuing residence, what time scale and procedure would be considered reasonable?

 They do not have that right.

2. Regarding the Padron in the local Town Hall.
a) Is continuing confirmation of your registration on the Town Hall Padron sufficient to CONFIRM your continuing to be classified as a permanent resident, once you are registered on the Central Register of Extranjeros?

 Actually, no-one has to classify an EU Citizen as a permanent resident. That right arises entirely automatically and is not subject to any bureaucratic procedure whatsoever. If you are based here for 5 years you are a permanent resident. Simple as that (subject to the very limited exceptions noted previously).

b) All Town Halls in Spain are required by law to carry out periodic checks of their Padron registrations in order to maintain an accurate Padron.
In reality this places a greater obligation on non Spanish citizens who have not confirmed the continuing registration on the Central Register of Extranjeros.
Is this compatible with EU rules?

 I cannot see any direct connection between the Padron and EU rules as such. As far as I am aware, the Padron is administered in the same way for Spanish Nationals as for EU citizens. It is a kind of local register of inhabitants, in some ways similar to (in others different) from an "electoral roll". There is nothing incompatible with that. It also serves as a kind of proof of local residence/address. Again, that really has nothing to do with the free movement of citizens, or of treaty rights, and is purely a local matter. The same issue is dealt with differently in various countries. ""


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## gus-lopez

There's more!
This was a direct question to the EU immigration & citizens rights lawyers who liased with the Spanish Interior Ministry in Madrid.

"The question you raise concerns the application of Directive 2004/38 in Spain which is transposed under Spanish law by virtue of Real Decreto 240/07.

Residence documentation:

Your underlying question concerns the kind of document which Spanish authorities issue when an EU citizen (eg a UK citizen) requests confirmation of his right of residence in Spain.

In pursuance of removing administrative burdens for EU citizens when requesting confirmation of the right of residence under EU law, please note that Directive 2004/38 abolished residence cards or permits for EU citizens.

Accordingly, EU States may no longer issue residence permits or cards to EU citizens, following the entry into force of the Directive in question (2004/38), on the 30th April 2006.

Instead of a residence card or permit, Member States may only demand that EU citizens register their residence in the host Member State by way of a Registration Certificate (article 8 Directive 2004/38).

The recent novelty in this respect concerns the appearance and looks of the registration certificate, which has been made to look like a card as opposed to the A4 sized certificates which were issued previously.

1. Registration certificates which are issued to EU citizens under article 8 Directive 2004/38 do not have an expiry date.

Registration certificates contain the following information:
Name, Surname, Nationality, Address, ID number and date of Registration (Article 7 (1) Real Decreto 240/07).

2. Permanent residence is obtained under Article 16 Directive 2004/38, upon having resided legally for a continuous period of five years in Spain. This right arises automatically. There is no legal obligation to obtain and process this by way of application.

Applicants have the option of applying for the Permanent Residence certificate, but they are not obliged to do so.

Where such an application is submitted, the relevant authority in Spain will issue the certificate of permanent residence in question.

This certificate does not contain an expiry date (article 10 RD 240/07). If your question is whether permanent residence can be lost, the answer is provided under Article 16 paragraph 4, which provides that permanent residence is lost following the absence from the Member State in question for a period in excess of 2 consecutive years. Your post does not justify what circumstances applied for the people mentioned in your post (who are advised they must renew their applications for a Registration certificate). If the suggestion is that the Spanish authorities are requiring EU citizens who have permanent residence to renew applications for registration certificates, this would appear to be incompatible with both the Directive and the Spanish transposition measure (RD 240/07).

They are also breaking the law by charging!

"EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate. By law, the registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is free of charge."

In addition there is NO requirement to carry the certificate, the EU Directive never even envisaged any requirement to carry this document with you, and the Royal Decree does not require it either & the police do not have any right to ask you for it!


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## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> Under EU rules........nothing . Under spanish law they can only be fined 300€ for 'failure to register'.
> 
> EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not.
> 
> In any event no EU country can expel or deport an EU citizen except in the most exceptional circumstances, without an extradition warrant from another country. There are only a handful of such cases a year where an EU country of its own initiative tries to deport an EU citizen as "undesirable" throughout the entire EU and they invariably involve the most serious kind of activities, such as involvement in terrorism, etc. You actually cannot be "illegal" here in the sense I think you mean as you have an absolute right under EU law to live and work here and this cannot be denied to you on anything other than very limited grounds. The question of registration has no effect at all on this
> 
> We had all this out on another ,local, forum back early in the year.
> A direct request with various questions was made to the EU . The questions & replies are as below & the answers have 2  ( The original was in red from the eU but I'm lazy !)
> 
> ""1. It states that Member States can demand that EU citizens register in a central register.
> Therefore there is an obligation to obtain a Residence Certificate.
> Questions arising from this are>-
> a). How long do you have to reside in Spain before this requirement applies?
> 
> 3 Months.
> 
> How does this affect people who are intermittent visitors for 4 or 5 months?
> 
> If they stay less than 3 months in any one visit, not at all. If they stay over 3 months per visit Spain has the right to require that they register. If they spend 10 months here with just one day a month out of the country (for example) there is no need to register. It is based on a single stay exceeding 3 months.
> 
> b). It states that you automatically become a permanent resident after 5 years BUT this ceases if you leave the country for 2 years.
> What powers and duties does the host country have to CONFIRM continuing residence?
> Is Spain in contravention of EU rules when asking people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country?
> 
> Most categorically. See my other replies on this issue. They have no right (or power) to do this.
> 
> If the Spanish authorities do not have the power to ask people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country, how will the authorities be able to abide by the rule?
> 
> What rule? I do not understand the question. It is no business of "the authorities" in the case of an EU citizen (it is different for non-EU citizens, however - unless they are married to an EU citizen, that is).
> 
> If the authorities do have the right to ask residence to CONFIRM their continuing residence, what time scale and procedure would be considered reasonable?
> 
> They do not have that right.
> 
> 2. Regarding the Padron in the local Town Hall.
> a) Is continuing confirmation of your registration on the Town Hall Padron sufficient to CONFIRM your continuing to be classified as a permanent resident, once you are registered on the Central Register of Extranjeros?
> 
> Actually, no-one has to classify an EU Citizen as a permanent resident. That right arises entirely automatically and is not subject to any bureaucratic procedure whatsoever. If you are based here for 5 years you are a permanent resident. Simple as that (subject to the very limited exceptions noted previously).
> 
> b) All Town Halls in Spain are required by law to carry out periodic checks of their Padron registrations in order to maintain an accurate Padron.
> In reality this places a greater obligation on non Spanish citizens who have not confirmed the continuing registration on the Central Register of Extranjeros.
> Is this compatible with EU rules?
> 
> I cannot see any direct connection between the Padron and EU rules as such. As far as I am aware, the Padron is administered in the same way for Spanish Nationals as for EU citizens. It is a kind of local register of inhabitants, in some ways similar to (in others different) from an "electoral roll". There is nothing incompatible with that. It also serves as a kind of proof of local residence/address. Again, that really has nothing to do with the free movement of citizens, or of treaty rights, and is purely a local matter. The same issue is dealt with differently in various countries. ""


that's me alright then Jack :clap2:

I wonder how many of the 'authorities' know all that though ...........


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## Lunar-Tech

gus-lopez said:


> Under EU rules........nothing . Under spanish law they can only be fined 300€ for 'failure to register'.
> 
> EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not.
> 
> In any event no EU country can expel or deport an EU citizen except in the most exceptional circumstances, without an extradition warrant from another country. There are only a handful of such cases a year where an EU country of its own initiative tries to deport an EU citizen as "undesirable" throughout the entire EU and they invariably involve the most serious kind of activities, such as involvement in terrorism, etc. You actually cannot be "illegal" here in the sense I think you mean as you have an absolute right under EU law to live and work here and this cannot be denied to you on anything other than very limited grounds. The question of registration has no effect at all on this
> 
> We had all this out on another ,local, forum back early in the year.
> A direct request with various questions was made to the EU . The questions & replies are as below & the answers have 2  ( The original was in red from the eU but I'm lazy !)
> 
> ""1. It states that Member States can demand that EU citizens register in a central register.
> Therefore there is an obligation to obtain a Residence Certificate.
> Questions arising from this are>-
> a). How long do you have to reside in Spain before this requirement applies?
> 
> 3 Months.
> 
> How does this affect people who are intermittent visitors for 4 or 5 months?
> 
> If they stay less than 3 months in any one visit, not at all. If they stay over 3 months per visit Spain has the right to require that they register. If they spend 10 months here with just one day a month out of the country (for example) there is no need to register. It is based on a single stay exceeding 3 months.
> 
> b). It states that you automatically become a permanent resident after 5 years BUT this ceases if you leave the country for 2 years.
> What powers and duties does the host country have to CONFIRM continuing residence?
> Is Spain in contravention of EU rules when asking people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country?
> 
> Most categorically. See my other replies on this issue. They have no right (or power) to do this.
> 
> If the Spanish authorities do not have the power to ask people to CONFIRM their continuing residence in the country, how will the authorities be able to abide by the rule?
> 
> What rule? I do not understand the question. It is no business of "the authorities" in the case of an EU citizen (it is different for non-EU citizens, however - unless they are married to an EU citizen, that is).
> 
> If the authorities do have the right to ask residence to CONFIRM their continuing residence, what time scale and procedure would be considered reasonable?
> 
> They do not have that right.
> 
> 2. Regarding the Padron in the local Town Hall.
> a) Is continuing confirmation of your registration on the Town Hall Padron sufficient to CONFIRM your continuing to be classified as a permanent resident, once you are registered on the Central Register of Extranjeros?
> 
> Actually, no-one has to classify an EU Citizen as a permanent resident. That right arises entirely automatically and is not subject to any bureaucratic procedure whatsoever. If you are based here for 5 years you are a permanent resident. Simple as that (subject to the very limited exceptions noted previously).
> 
> b) All Town Halls in Spain are required by law to carry out periodic checks of their Padron registrations in order to maintain an accurate Padron.
> In reality this places a greater obligation on non Spanish citizens who have not confirmed the continuing registration on the Central Register of Extranjeros.
> Is this compatible with EU rules?
> 
> I cannot see any direct connection between the Padron and EU rules as such. As far as I am aware, the Padron is administered in the same way for Spanish Nationals as for EU citizens. It is a kind of local register of inhabitants, in some ways similar to (in others different) from an "electoral roll". There is nothing incompatible with that. It also serves as a kind of proof of local residence/address. Again, that really has nothing to do with the free movement of citizens, or of treaty rights, and is purely a local matter. The same issue is dealt with differently in various countries. ""


I found this on the europa.eu My Europe website FAQs
EU – Residence rights around the EU - FAQ's – Your Europe

"I forgot to register at the town hall after being in another EU country for 3 months. Will I be expelled?
NO - You cannot be expelled. However, depending on the country, you may be fined for failing to register when required.

I have independent resources and am planning to move to another EU country. Do I need to prove to the authorities there that I have sufficient means to support myself?
YES – If you can prove you have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance valid in that country, you can stay there for more than 3 months.

I spend 2 months of every year in my seaside flat in another EU country. Do I have to register at the town hall?
NO – If you stay for less than 3 months, all you might need to do is report your presence, if that country requires it.
I forgot to register at the town hall after being in another EU country for 3 months. Will I be expelled?
NO - You cannot be expelled. However, depending on the country, you may be fined for failing to register when required.

I have independent resources and am planning to move to another EU country. Do I need to prove to the authorities there that I have sufficient means to support myself?
YES – If you can prove you have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance valid in that country, you can stay there for more than 3 months.

I spend 2 months of every year in my seaside flat in another EU country. Do I have to register at the town hall?
NO – If you stay for less than 3 months, all you might need to do is report your presence, if that country requires it."

So they can ask you to prove you will not be a burden on the state I'm sure the EUs own website would be correct! :confused2:


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> that's me alright then Jack :clap2:
> 
> I wonder how many of the 'authorities' know all that though ...........


Not many & apparently it starts from the top !  

I quote " Brussels seemed quite bemused by their experience in trying to get a simple answer to a simple question from Madrid. They told me they are quite prepared to pursue the matter as it does appear to be placing an unwarranted administrative burden on EU citizens contrary to the spirit and intent of the regulations Madrid has signed up to. " 

This is the eu Compliants/dispute site & the European Commission also passes formal complaints it receives on to SOLVIT if there is a good chance that the problem can be solved without legal action.

About SOLVIT


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## gus-lopez

Lunar-Tech said:


> I found this on the europa.eu My Europe website FAQs
> EU – Residence rights around the EU - FAQ's – Your Europe
> 
> "I forgot to register at the town hall after being in another EU country for 3 months. Will I be expelled?
> NO - You cannot be expelled. However, depending on the country, you may be fined for failing to register when required.
> 
> I have independent resources and am planning to move to another EU country. Do I need to prove to the authorities there that I have sufficient means to support myself?
> YES – If you can prove you have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance valid in that country, you can stay there for more than 3 months.
> 
> I spend 2 months of every year in my seaside flat in another EU country. Do I have to register at the town hall?
> NO – If you stay for less than 3 months, all you might need to do is report your presence, if that country requires it.
> I forgot to register at the town hall after being in another EU country for 3 months. Will I be expelled?
> NO - You cannot be expelled. However, depending on the country, you may be fined for failing to register when required.
> 
> I have independent resources and am planning to move to another EU country. Do I need to prove to the authorities there that I have sufficient means to support myself?
> YES – If you can prove you have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance valid in that country, you can stay there for more than 3 months.
> 
> I spend 2 months of every year in my seaside flat in another EU country. Do I have to register at the town hall?
> NO – If you stay for less than 3 months, all you might need to do is report your presence, if that country requires it."
> 
> So they can ask you to prove you will not be a burden on the state I'm sure the EUs own website would be correct! :confused2:


The problem is there are conflicting eu rules. 
If you go to register for the certificate to stay once 3 months is up & don't have sufficient means or health cover they will refuse you , BUT under EU Rules they cannot remove you from the country ! Assuming that the former happened & you stayed ,under EU rules after 5 years you have the Automatic right to permanent residency ! As the rules state & the EU replies I posted make quite clear;

"That right arises entirely automatically and is not subject to any bureaucratic procedure whatsoever. If you are based here for 5 years you are a permanent resident. Simple as that (subject to the very limited exceptions noted previously)."

So what's the point in asking in the first place ?

With regard to people who have been here more than 5 years & haven't registered . If they go to register they can be fined 300€ for failing to register after three months but must be granted permanent residency under eu rules. 


But as XabiaChica points out expecting any of them to know is hoping for a miracle. 

We need new medical cards at the end of July,  I'm expecting it to be a fight but fortunately I have all the info necessary , can argue the toss & ,unfortunately, have dealt with them before on behalf of other people. How I manage to keep a smile on my face & remain calm defies the belief of anyone who knows me! & me !!
:boxing:


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## Solwriter

gus-lopez said:


> With regard to people who have been here more than 5 years & haven't registered . If they go to register they can be fined 300€ for failing to register after three months but must be granted permanent residency under eu rules.
> 
> 
> But as XabiaChica points out expecting any of them to know is hoping for a miracle.


What I have noticed is that in recent transactions we have undertaken (at the bank and getting a new mobile phone for example) we have been asked for our "green cards", where in the past our NIE numbers and passports were sufficient.
As we carry them, it was no problem, but if this is a new directive (from somewhere ) then those who never signed up will eventually find out.
(and hopefully come on here and find out they only have to pay 300 euros, rather than face all kinds of bureaucratic wrath they may be expecting).


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## CapnBilly

gus-lopez said:


> In addition there is NO requirement to carry the certificate, the EU Directive never even envisaged any requirement to carry this document with you, and the Royal Decree does not require it either & the police do not have any right to ask you for it!


The UKinSpain website which is managed by the UK Embassy states under 

DOCUMENTS YOU SHOULD CARRY IN YOUR CAR

When driving your car in Spain, if stopped by the Police you would need the following

1. Driving Licence
2. Green Residents Certificate
3. ID Document i.e passport

There is clearly no hope for us mere mortals


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## purpleflower

Hi gus, I have been reading the posts about this matter with interest as my partner and I have just arrived in Spain and are renting a holiday apartment for 4 weeks, we are getting married in Gibraltar on 21st May and are going to apply for residency after that, I am British and my partner is American, we live on his modest pension from America, before we came here I did lots of research about proof of income and didnt read anything about needing this or healthcare cover, today I have been reading that these requirements have now been brought in from last month, do you know how much income a couple will need to prove to be able to get residency and what will happen if you dont have the required amount?

Thanks for your help



gus-lopez said:


> The problem is there are conflicting eu rules.
> If you go to register for the certificate to stay once 3 months is up & don't have sufficient means or health cover they will refuse you , BUT under EU Rules they cannot remove you from the country ! Assuming that the former happened & you stayed ,under EU rules after 5 years you have the Automatic right to permanent residency ! As the rules state & the EU replies I posted make quite clear;
> 
> "That right arises entirely automatically and is not subject to any bureaucratic procedure whatsoever. If you are based here for 5 years you are a permanent resident. Simple as that (subject to the very limited exceptions noted previously)."
> 
> So what's the point in asking in the first place ?
> 
> With regard to people who have been here more than 5 years & haven't registered . If they go to register they can be fined 300€ for failing to register after three months but must be granted permanent residency under eu rules.
> 
> 
> But as XabiaChica points out expecting any of them to know is hoping for a miracle.
> 
> We need new medical cards at the end of July,  I'm expecting it to be a fight but fortunately I have all the info necessary , can argue the toss & ,unfortunately, have dealt with them before on behalf of other people. How I manage to keep a smile on my face & remain calm defies the belief of anyone who knows me! & me !!
> :boxing:


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## xabiaxica

purpleflower said:


> Hi gus, I have been reading the posts about this matter with interest as my partner and I have just arrived in Spain and are renting a holiday apartment for 4 weeks, we are getting married in Gibraltar on 21st May and are going to apply for residency after that, I am British and my partner is American, we live on his modest pension from America, before we came here I did lots of research about proof of income and didnt read anything about needing this or healthcare cover, today I have been reading that these requirements have now been brought in from last month, do you know how much income a couple will need to prove to be able to get residency and what will happen if you dont have the required amount?
> 
> Thanks for your help


according to the UKinSpain website


> If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application.


I haven't seen anything (yet ...) about proof of income except for if applying for means tested benefits in Spain


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## Seb*

Without really knowing details (what is your age / how close are you to retirement / have you contributed to NI in the UK), you probably will need private health insurance (the alternative is a S1 form to get temporary cover from the UK). They might want to see some bank statements showing regular income of money - I don't know if there are any minimum requirements.

With your husband from the US you might have to sort some other things out for your EEA family permit / visa, which might make it a bit more complicated.


----------



## gus-lopez

They cannot ask you to supply something that is not required of a spanish national. The minimum resources , by their own admission, will not be above the level that is required before a spanish national is deemed to need assistance. This appears to be 440€ per month.

Seb , they've turned people away with S1's in the past week , in Almeria. Makes you wonder about the intelligence of the people they employ. 
The situation re: healthcare in some areas of Andalucia is far worse than anywhere else & has been for years. Even staff & doctors believe that the UK residents are receiving healthcare FOC & nothing will convince them otherwise !


----------



## purpleflower

Thankyou everyone who replied to my message, I will let you know what happens when we apply


----------



## xabiaxica

purpleflower said:


> Thankyou everyone who replied to my message, I will let you know what happens when we apply


thanks


a friend who runs a lawyers practice has just told me that a minimum income of around 425€ a month is required - although some offices of course don't yet know these requirements


I've asked her to join & give us more info 


if she doesn't I'll keep passing info on.


----------



## purpleflower

Thanks for that Xabia, I presume the amount will be double that for a couple? What happens if your income is less than that?


----------



## xabiaxica

purpleflower said:


> Thanks for that Xabia, I presume the amount will be double that for a couple? What happens if your income is less than that?


oops - just realised it's nearer 435 - I don't know actually if it's more for a couple...........


----------



## purpleflower

okay, thanks xabia, if you find out anything more please let me know


----------



## xabiaxica

there has just been a post on a local fb group from a woman who went with her passport & NIE to the extranjería in Denia today, to get her green residents cert.


she was told she needed to produce her _vida laboral_ (work record) or proof that she was unemployed

she has been working here fro soem time, & her gestor is going to take it from here & go back for yet another appt. with her vida laboral



now - what are you supposed to do then, if you've just arrived & have no vida laboral? Or if you don't work here?

she obviously didn't ask, since it's not relevant to her ........


Interestingly they didn't ask her about healthcare - but then, if she's working she's covered


----------



## snikpoh

xabiachica said:


> there has just been a post on a local fb group from a woman who went with her passport & NIE to the extranjería in Denia today, to get her green residents cert.
> 
> 
> she was told she needed to produce her _vida laboral_ (work record) or proof that she was unemployed
> 
> she has been working here fro soem time, & her gestor is going to take it from here & go back for yet another appt. with her vida laboral
> 
> 
> 
> now - what are you supposed to do then, if you've just arrived & have no vida laboral? Or if you don't work here?
> 
> she obviously didn't ask, since it's not relevant to her ........
> 
> 
> Interestingly they didn't ask her about healthcare - but then, if she's working she's covered



On a different forum (which I hardly ever go on of course :eyebrows, it was stated that people are being refused a residency certificate if they can't provide the necessary documentation; That is;

Proof of income over 435 euros/month per person
Proof of health care (private or otherwise)

This raises a couple of questions - what about children or large families?, what if you have savings rather than a salary?, what are the figures for couples/families?


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> On a different forum (which I hardly ever go on of course :eyebrows, it was stated that people are being refused a residency certificate if they can't provide the necessary documentation; That is;
> 
> Proof of income over 435 euros/month per person
> Proof of health care (private or otherwise)
> 
> This raises a couple of questions - what about children or large families?, what if you have savings rather than a salary?, what are the figures for couples/families?


per person??? that's interesting, since that would be ( a bit) more than has been reportedly required for US citizens on a retirement visa


----------



## gus-lopez

snikpoh said:


> On a different forum (which I hardly ever go on of course :eyebrows, it was stated that people are being refused a residency certificate if they can't provide the necessary documentation; That is;
> 
> Proof of income over 435 euros/month per person
> Proof of health care (private or otherwise)
> 
> This raises a couple of questions - what about children or large families?, what if you have savings rather than a salary?, what are the figures for couples/families?


Children u-18 are entitled to full healthcare as are pregnant women both pre& post natal.. Try getting it in some places though !

So what is the requirement for the people under retiring age , no pension/income, permanent residency for more than 10 years, registered unemployed & already in possession of a health card ? :confused2: 

it would appear that every different office is giving conflicting advice ! I'm going to swot up on the you tube 'funcionario' clip . :rofl:


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> Children u-18 are entitled to full healthcare as are pregnant women both pre& post natal.. Try getting it in some places though !
> 
> So what is the requirement for the people under retiring age , no pension/income, permanent residency for more than 10 years, registered unemployed & already in possession of a health card ? :confused2:
> 
> it would appear that every different office is giving conflicting advice ! *I'm going to swot up on the you tube 'funcionario' clip* . :rofl:


I guess if you're already here, have your card & your residents cert then you're OK - maybe :confused2:

and don't you dare!! I'll zap it


----------



## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> I guess if you're already here, have your card & your residents cert then you're OK - maybe :confused2:
> 
> and don't you dare!! I'll zap it


No I meant to make sure I had all the bits of paper plus any that they won't even know about ! 

Anyway :focus: Here is a link to to a local forum where the deputy mayor has just posted re ; this situation & asking people to submit complaints to About SOLVIT

along these lines.

Medical and Residencia complaints



Suggested issues of complaint.

1.
The Spanish authorities are requiring all EU citizens resident in Spain to register at their local Extranjeros Office, and to renew the registration every 5 years.

They are now refusing to accept the registration or renewal of registration without proof of medical cover and proof of sufficient financial resources.

This is contrary to the rights of EU citizens to move freely within the EU.

____________________________________________________________________________

2.
As from April 24th the Spanish Authorities are refusing to accept renewal of Residencia Registration from British pensioners without proof of medical cover under the Spanish health service.
But the Spanish health service is refusing to issue such cover without a Certificate of Registration.

This is a blatant attempt to deny health cover to British pensioners and is contrary to the reciprocal agreement between member states.
____________________________________________________________________________

3.
British pensioners who have attempted to renew their Residencia Registration have been informed that they are no longer covered under the Spanish Health Service, even though they have been covered for many years, with documentation issued from the British Government.

This is contrary to the reciprocal agreement between member states.

____________________________________________________________________________

Unless enough people bombard the authorities with these complaints nothing will be done and we will all suffer.

Additionally you can point out that it is totally contrary to eu legislation to require people to renew the certificate & in addition to charge for it !

I've left out the link to the local forum as I'm not dead sure that it's allowed. If it is I'll post it later.


*EDIT BY XABIACHIA...this is the link to the thread on the local forum http://www.arboleas.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=62114.0*


----------



## Solwriter

Confusion over how the Spanish Government intends to treat EU citizens re health and registration appears to rise by the hour.

Normally, I would take a 'wait and see' attitude to all this, but, having lived in Spain for a few years now and having had to deal with the contradictions, confusions and sometimes downright intransigence of various officials, this issue does concern me a lot.

Because it appears that everyone is confused by these changes (and supposed changes) and the result will not only be chaos, it will mean that some people will find themselves unable to gain access to state health care, even though they should be getting it.

Adding to that, with residencia criteria now being assessed too, some will fall foul of an over zealous official and be refused registration or re registration.
On the face of it, some would say that this doesn't matter that much as, if you are an EU citizen, you have the right to reside in Spain as long as you wish to do so.
But the reality is, without that green card (or sheet of paper...) there will be many things you are unable to do.

And of course there is the chicken and egg situation - you cannot get your health card without your green card, but you cannot get your green card without your health card....

And its all very well for the British Embassy to say that showing your S1 may be ok (that is, when yours has finally arrived in the post....), but they don't know for sure whether this will be acceptable.

This is all a total mess!
(but sadly I'm not surprised )


----------



## mrypg9

*EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not. *


EU citizens do NOT have the automatic right to work in another EU member state. All EU states apart from Britain and the ROI imposed strict quotas on the number of work-seeking immigrants from the former socialist bloc states when they gained entry to the EU in 2004.

As I understand it, the UK has now imposed restrictions on the entry of job seekers from Bulgaria and Romania. I believe Spain has done this too.

What people fail to understand is that most EU Directives contain clauses which allow individual member states some leeway in imposing their own restrictions. 
Personally, I would understand it if Spain imposed quotas on work-seeking immigrants: an unemployment rate of 25% would justify that.

As for requiring a certain amount of income as a precondition for acquiring resident status: again, that is not uncommon in EU states. I had to prove that I had sufficient income to maintain myself without requiring state assistance when I moved to live in Prague.

And why not? I did not move to Spain in the expectation that the hard-pressed Spanish taxpayer should support me or supplement my income. I have no objection to paying towards my Spanish health care as long as I can afford to. If I couldn't afford to live a decent life here, at least equal to the standard of comfort I was used to in the UK, I would have stayed there.
Living in Spain is a privilege. It is not an entitlement.


----------



## mrypg9

Gus, if what you have posted as grounds for complaint were true, the EU would grind to a halt.
Romania and Bulgaria are piss-poor countries.
So...if what you say is EU law then every Bulgarian and Romanian has the right to enter the UK, to take one EU state as an example, and work and live?
Think about it.....
As I said, you will find that EU law allows for some measure of input according to the requirements of each member state.

Two examples: the Czech Republic Senate refused to pass a law banning smoking in public places. Afaik it has yet to pass all of the Equality Directive into national legislation.
The UK has inserted a 'marriage' qualification into some of its domestic equality legislation, following the UK Government's adoption of the Social Chapter of Maastrict Treaty. This restricts public sector pension payments to same -sex partners.
I've already mentioned the quotas imposed on job-seekers.


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> *EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not. *
> 
> 
> EU citizens do NOT have the automatic right to work in another EU member state. All EU states apart from Britain and the ROI imposed strict quotas on the number of work-seeking immigrants from the former socialist bloc states when they gained entry to the EU in 2004.
> 
> As I understand it, the UK has now imposed restrictions on the entry of job seekers from Bulgaria and Romania. I believe Spain has done this too.
> 
> What people fail to understand is that most EU Directives contain clauses which allow individual member states some leeway in imposing their own restrictions.
> Personally, I would understand it if Spain imposed quotas on work-seeking immigrants: an unemployment rate of 25% would justify that.
> 
> As for requiring a certain amount of income as a precondition for acquiring resident status: again, that is not uncommon in EU states. I had to prove that I had sufficient income to maintain myself without requiring state assistance when I moved to live in Prague.
> 
> And why not? I did not move to Spain in the expectation that the hard-pressed Spanish taxpayer should support me or supplement my income. I have no objection to paying towards my Spanish health care as long as I can afford to. If I couldn't afford to live a decent life here, at least equal to the standard of comfort I was used to in the UK, I would have stayed there.
> Living in Spain is a privilege. It is not an entitlement.


As I've said before somewhere on here, when we moved to Spain in 2005 we enquired about residencia and were given a number of forms to fill in. We were also told that we needed to prove that we could maintain ourselves here.
I can't remember what the figures were, but they did not include savings, or any lump sum in the bank - we would have had to prove that we had a regular income coming in from work or pensions (although I guess that regular income from a savings scheme would have qualified if enough).

At that time, we only had the money left over after buying and modernising our house and a couple of pensions which my husband received for early retirement. It was not considered enough, so we just kept our heads down and worked on a solution.

Its the reason we did not apply for residencia until after I had set up my internet business and could prove I had regular money coming in. This is why I had to sign up as autonomo and produce bank statements to show satisfactory incomings and outgoings before we could apply for residencia.
This then gave us our (at the time) residencia cards and we could then gain access to the state health system under my name.
(although, on our arrival here, we could both have applied for an S1 to cover us for around 18 months, there was no point in doing so at the time, because without residencia we could not get signed up).

It was actually a worrying time. We could not get private health insurance as my husband had had health issues in the past so he could not get cover at a reasonable cost. So when he received the UK state pension we breathed a sigh of relief as he could now sign up for health care in his own right.

As for expecting the hard pressed Spanish tax payer to foot the bill for our health needs, that was not the case for us, and is not the case for those with an S1 (or an EHIC come to that), as the UK foots the bill for this.

The problem is that the Spanish do not appear to realise this, so promoting the idea that Brits and other EU citizens are sponging off the Spanish state goes down well in the popular press and appears to justify some officials refusing health cards to those who actually do have a right to claim them.

I don't think that anyone in the discussion (here and elsewhere) by now thinks that Spain, as a member of the EU, has no right to change the rules and take advantage of allowances in legislation for member states.
It is perfectly clear that they can do this.

What is getting to me is the confusion which these changes are generating - for the Spanish people as well as for expats.
They need to get their act together fast and make sure that local areas are made very clear about the changes which are actually taking place.
Otherwise chaos is going to reign for the foreseeable future.

And to intimate that those who cannot afford to live here should stay in the UK may be fine and good for those thinking about moving here. But what about all those expats who have abided by the rules but now wish to return to the UK (or another country of origin), but are stuck here with a house they cant sell?

This discussion is not about whether or not people should come to Spain. It's about how changes regarding health (and now it appears residencia also) are going to affect them.


----------



## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> As I've said before somewhere on here, when we moved to Spain in 2005 we enquired about residencia and were given a number of forms to fill in. We were also told that we needed to prove that we could maintain ourselves here.
> I can't remember what the figures were, but they did not include savings, or any lump sum in the bank - we would have had to prove that we had a regular income coming in from work or pensions (although I guess that regular income from a savings scheme would have qualified if enough).
> 
> At that time, we only had the money left over after buying and modernising our house and a couple of pensions which my husband received for early retirement. It was not considered enough, so we just kept our heads down and worked on a solution.
> 
> Its the reason we did not apply for residencia until after I had set up my internet business and could prove I had regular money coming in. This is why I had to sign up as autonomo and produce bank statements to show satisfactory incomings and outgoings before we could apply for residencia.
> This then gave us our (at the time) residencia cards and we could then gain access to the state health system under my name.
> (although, on our arrival here, we could both have applied for an S1 to cover us for around 18 months, there was no point in doing so at the time, because without residencia we could not get signed up).
> 
> It was actually a worrying time. We could not get private health insurance as my husband had had health issues in the past so he could not get cover at a reasonable cost. So when he received the UK state pension we breathed a sigh of relief as he could now sign up for health care in his own right.
> 
> As for expecting the hard pressed Spanish tax payer to foot the bill for our health needs, that was not the case for us, and is not the case for those with an S1 (or an EHIC come to that), as the UK foots the bill for this.
> 
> The problem is that the Spanish do not appear to realise this, so promoting the idea that Brits and other EU citizens are sponging off the Spanish state goes down well in the popular press and appears to justify some officials refusing health cards to those who actually do have a right to claim them.
> 
> I don't think that anyone in the discussion (here and elsewhere) by now thinks that Spain, as a member of the EU, has no right to change the rules and take advantage of allowances in legislation for member states.
> It is perfectly clear that they can do this.
> 
> What is getting to me is the confusion which these changes are generating - for the Spanish people as well as for expats.
> They need to get their act together fast and make sure that local areas are made very clear about the changes which are actually taking place.
> Otherwise chaos is going to reign for the foreseeable future.
> 
> And to intimate that those who cannot afford to live here should stay in the UK may be fine and good for those thinking about moving here. But what about all those expats who have abided by the rules but now wish to return to the UK (or another country of origin), but are stuck here with a house they cant sell?
> 
> This discussion is not about whether or not people should come to Spain. It's about how changes regarding health (and now it appears residencia also) are going to affect them.


there _are_, however, people here in Spain who somehow or other managed to get their hands on a health card & entitlement to state healthcare simply by producing an EHIC - or whatever it was before - at some time or other

you see them on forums all the time & I even know some personally

they got the cards often simply becase the issuing office didn't understand the rules - so perhaps it's not exactly the cardholder's fault

the fact reamins though, that these people aren't entitled to state healthcare - who is paying for that?

all that is happening now, really, is a tightening up - no 'residencia', no healthcare

they've added in 'no income - no residencia' though

there are tons of people on our local fb group who work & pay in & therefore are entitled to healthcare - but aren't registered as resident

there are also quite a few who don't work, have kids in school & who have suddenly discovered a need for a resident cert, but now are going to have a problem getting one if they can't prove the regular income & private healthcare


I predict a mini exodus


----------



## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> But what about all those expats who have abided by the rules but now wish to return to the UK (or another country of origin), but are stuck here with a house they cant sell?
> 
> .



Well, I sympathise.....but life has a habit of unfairly dealing the cards. Does anyone expect life to proceed smoothly these days?

Some people bought properties they couldn't afford in the days when you got a mortgage on the legendary 'pulse and passport'. Others just find they have stumbled on hard times. No Government can look after everyone in trouble, especially in these times. No-one put a gun to people's heads to buy property - it was their free choice. That may sound hard but it's the truth. I have made many costly mistakes in my lifetime....

Considering the economic mess Spain currently finds itself in, the Government can surely justify putting the interests of Spanish nationals before those of immigrants? There was an interesting piece in The Independent about how British and other non-rsidents take advantage of the Spanish health care system. One Dutch woman had registered her mother on the padron (she already had resident status) although her mother actually lived in France. When she required complex surgery she came to live with her daughter in Spain.

There are many people who cheat the system in this way, no doubt, just as there are many immigrants of all nationalities who work on the black or fiddle IVA to avoid paying tax due. Spain can't support this way of living any longer.


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> *EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not. *
> 
> 
> EU citizens do NOT have the automatic right to work in another EU member state. All EU states apart from Britain and the ROI imposed strict quotas on the number of work-seeking immigrants from the former socialist bloc states when they gained entry to the EU in 2004.
> 
> As I understand it, the UK has now imposed restrictions on the entry of job seekers from Bulgaria and Romania. I believe Spain has done this too.
> 
> What people fail to understand is that most EU Directives contain clauses which allow individual member states some leeway in imposing their own restrictions.
> Personally, I would understand it if Spain imposed quotas on work-seeking immigrants: an unemployment rate of 25% would justify that.
> 
> As for requiring a certain amount of income as a precondition for acquiring resident status: again, that is not uncommon in EU states. I had to prove that I had sufficient income to maintain myself without requiring state assistance when I moved to live in Prague.
> 
> And why not? I did not move to Spain in the expectation that the hard-pressed Spanish taxpayer should support me or supplement my income. I have no objection to paying towards my Spanish health care as long as I can afford to. If I couldn't afford to live a decent life here, at least equal to the standard of comfort I was used to in the UK, I would have stayed there.
> Living in Spain is a privilege. It is not an entitlement.



The only quotas allowed are for the new member states . You cannot impose them on the original 17.

Unfortunately you have 17 regions imposing what is their interpretation of the law.
The law is quite straight forward ; if you have an S1 ( or equivalent from other countries) & are retired then you can register for spanish healthcare. It is up to the Spanish officials to process the registration to reclaim the money ,via the Eu, from the relevant countries. 
Unfortunately many regions haven't been putting the papers through . A case in question recentl in alicante/valencia region brought to light stacks of registered foreigners where the paperwork hadn't been passed to the eu for reclamation , losing the region 10million euros a year !

Under a FOI request, quite recently, the Uk stated that they are paying in 2012 ,in excess of 500 million euros to spain , via the eu at the rate of 3,500 per registered citizen , regardless of whether they use the health system . This is the payment for 2008 as the EU works & pays 4 years in arrears . Don't ask me why ?


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> there _are_, however, people here in Spain who somehow or other managed to get their hands on a health card & entitlement to state healthcare simply by producing an EHIC - or whatever it was before - at some time or other
> 
> you see them on forums all the time & I even know some personally
> 
> they got the cards often simply becase the issuing office didn't understand the rules - so perhaps it's not exactly the cardholder's fault
> 
> the fact reamins though, that these people aren't entitled to state healthcare - who is paying for that?
> 
> all that is happening now, really, is a tightening up - no 'residencia', no healthcare
> 
> they've added in 'no income - no residencia' though
> 
> there are tons of people on our local fb group who work & pay in & therefore are entitled to healthcare - but aren't registered as resident
> 
> there are also quite a few who don't work, have kids in school & who have suddenly discovered a need for a resident cert, but now are going to have a problem getting one if they can't prove the regular income & private healthcare
> 
> 
> I predict a mini exodus




'No income - no residencia' seems fair and proper. After all, if you can't support yourself, why expect the Spanish taxpayer to do so?
Very few countries, whether in or out of the EU, welcome people with no means of support. No-one has an entitlement to live anywhere, if the small print is carefully examined...

I don't understand why people who work, have children in school etc. here in Spain and are clearly resident haven't done the right thing and applied for resident status....


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I sympathise.....but life has a habit of unfairly dealing the cards. Does anyone expect life to proceed smoothly these days?
> 
> Some people bought properties they couldn't afford in the days when you got a mortgage on the legendary 'pulse and passport'.
> 
> Considering the economic mess Spain currently finds itself in, the Government can surely justify putting the interests of Spanish nationals before those of immigrants?


not everyone bought 'above their means'


some bought businesses which may have done well for them for years but now aren't making enough to feed a fly - some bought a business but rent a home - so the home might be easy to get rid of, but the business...............

at some point yes, you can just walk away - but to what? If they were self-employed there's no help to speak of

these people, by and large, are here with all paperwork in order - they have paid tax, ins, - they in some cases will have been here for years & years & perhaps they have raised families here 

why should they 'go back'? & why shouldn't they be entitled to whatever help there is?


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> The only quotas allowed are for the new member states . You cannot impose them on the original 17.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Says who??
> 
> We live in desperate times.....


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> 'No income - no residencia' seems fair and proper.
> 
> I don't understand why people who work, have children in school etc. here in Spain and are clearly resident haven't done the right thing and applied for resident status....


some I've spoken to genuinely didn't seem to know that they should, to be fair 


in all honesty, there were lots of things we didn't understand when we first came - I didn't find forums for a year or so after we arrived & would have had no idea where to look for info. in any case

we thought that the EU was the EU & that it was the same throughout - that was what we'd been led to believe - 'the United States of Europe' - & that we'd be entitled to healthcare etc etc just like in the UK 

maybe you can say we hadn't researched enough & that might be true - but we actually didn't realise that we _needed _to reasearch at all!


----------



## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> there _are_, however, people here in Spain who somehow or other managed to get their hands on a health card & entitlement to state healthcare simply by producing an EHIC - or whatever it was before - at some time or other
> 
> you see them on forums all the time & I even know some personally
> 
> they got the cards often simply becase the issuing office didn't understand the rules - so perhaps it's not exactly the cardholder's fault
> 
> the fact reamins though, that these people aren't entitled to state healthcare - who is paying for that?
> 
> all that is happening now, really, is a tightening up - no 'residencia', no healthcare
> 
> they've added in 'no income - no residencia' though
> 
> there are tons of people on our local fb group who work & pay in & therefore are entitled to healthcare - but aren't registered as resident
> 
> there are also quite a few who don't work, have kids in school & who have suddenly discovered a need for a resident cert, but now are going to have a problem getting one if they can't prove the regular income & private healthcare
> 
> 
> I predict a mini exodus


Quite possibly there will be .
When I arrived , as far as I was concerned I had no right to healthcare. My Spanish teacher pointed out that I had every right , as did all the illegals, as the only requirement under Spanish law was registration on the padron.
That was the only requirement.


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> there _are_, however, people here in Spain who somehow or other managed to get their hands on a health card & entitlement to state healthcare simply by producing an EHIC - or whatever it was before - at some time or other
> 
> you see them on forums all the time & I even know some personally
> 
> they got the cards often simply becase the issuing office didn't understand the rules - so perhaps it's not exactly the cardholder's fault
> 
> the fact reamins though, that these people aren't entitled to state healthcare - who is paying for that?
> 
> all that is happening now, really, is a tightening up - no 'residencia', no healthcare
> 
> they've added in 'no income - no residencia' though
> 
> there are tons of people on our local fb group who work & pay in & therefore are entitled to healthcare - but aren't registered as resident
> 
> there are also quite a few who don't work, have kids in school & who have suddenly discovered a need for a resident cert, but now are going to have a problem getting one if they can't prove the regular income & private healthcare
> 
> 
> I predict a mini exodus


Oh, I agree.
We were (I guess) unlucky in that our local issuing office stuck to the rules for residencia (and may have even added their own rules on income at that time) and our health centre stuck to the rules - no residencia means no healthcare.
I dont personally know anyone who was able to obtain a health card without residencia or an S1, or with just an EHIC (possibly because our local area is quite strict), but agree they exist as I have seen them online too.

I do, however, know a few people who rely solely on an EHIC, so, although they are not following the rules, if the card is up to date, they would receive emergency treatment paid for by the UK.
Not a good situation to be in obviously, especially as it now appears that emergency will mean just that - patch you up and send you home to the UK for follow up treatment. And not one I personally would like to rely on.
But if EU members find it increasingly difficult to obtain state health care here, then I can see more Brits feeling forced to rely on this....


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> some I've spoken to genuinely didn't seem to know that they should, to be fair
> 
> 
> in all honesty, there were lots of things we didn't understand when we first came - I didn't find forums for a year or so after we arrived & would have had no idea where to look for info. in any case
> 
> we thought that the EU was the EU & that it was the same throughout - that was what we'd been led to believe - 'the United States of Europe' - & that we'd be entitled to healthcare etc etc just like in the UK
> 
> maybe you can say we hadn't researched enough & that might be true - but we actually didn't realise that we _needed _to reasearch at all!



Yes, I can understand what you're saying. But as I've pointed out before, it seems that some immigrants view Spain as an extension of the UK...Blackpool on heat. Those tv programmes have a lot to answer for.

At one time some Brits seemed to think they had an 'entitlement' to work or retire to Spain. That's why we hear all this drivel about the 'Spanish dream'. 

One reason -the main reason - why we didn't buy property when we left the UK is that a reading of twentieth-century British and European history reveals the all-too-frequent turbulence of life for ordinary people. We had heard scare stories about Spanish illegal builds and had friends who had problems buying legal Spanish properties. We had enough income to rent the kind of property we might not have been able to afford anyway and the arguments against buying were overwhelming.
True, since we left the UK we have spent an enormous amount on rent. 
But we are able to up sticks and off should we feel like it - although we don't, we'll stay put. If we get to the point where our current rent is unaffordable, we'll downsize.


----------



## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> Oh, I agree.
> We were (I guess) unlucky in that our local issuing office stuck to the rules for residencia (and may have even added their own rules on income at that time) and our health centre stuck to the rules - no residencia means no healthcare.
> I dont personally know anyone who was able to obtain a health card without residencia or an S1, or with just an EHIC (possibly because our local area is quite strict), but agree they exist as I have seen them online too.
> 
> I do, however, know a few people who rely solely on an EHIC, so, although they are not following the rules, if the card is up to date, they would receive emergency treatment paid for by the UK.
> Not a good situation to be in obviously, especially as it now appears that emergency will mean just that - patch you up and send you home to the UK for follow up treatment. And not one I personally would like to rely on.
> But if EU members find it increasingly difficult to obtain state health care here, then I can see more Brits feeling forced to rely on this....


the EHIC situation has already had a tightening up - & quite rightly

there have been reports of people being refused any treatment at all if their name appears with too much regularity in whatever space of time is being recorded - although quite where that leaves the geniune 'holiday homers' who come for a week or so every month & need to see the doctor:confused2:

& as you say - the'll get the 'emergency' treatment - but they won't get any follow up treatment at all


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> 'No income - no residencia' seems fair and proper. After all, if you can't support yourself, why expect the Spanish taxpayer to do so?
> Very few countries, whether in or out of the EU, welcome people with no means of support. No-one has an entitlement to live anywhere, if the small print is carefully examined...
> 
> I don't understand why people who work, have children in school etc. here in Spain and are clearly resident haven't done the right thing and applied for resident status....


'No income - no residencia' seems fair and proper. 

Lets get it straight once & for all. There is no residencia. There is no requirement to register under EU rules as it was declared illegal in 2007 when the cards went. They can only ask for you to inform them that you live here & for which they place you on the 'registro de ciudadano de la union' , the so -called 'green form' which is being referred to as 'residencia'. In addition this is required to be administered once only with no requirement to renew,at no cost, without hindrance , issued on the spot, & in a place local to the citizens abode . I.E. not asking them to drive a return journey of 320kms to comply.

On all of the above points Spain is & has been breaking EU law in many regions for the last 5 years!

Under EU rules no country can grant residencia to a citizen from another EU state. The citizen can exercise his right to become a resident if he so wishes. 
Regardless of whether they have a certificate or not , under eu law they are a citizen of the country they are living in from the day they arrived & cannot be discriminated in any shape or form. I.E. differences in IHT or CGt taxation, etc;etc.


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> 'No income - no residencia' seems fair and proper.
> 
> Lets get it straight once & for all. There is no residencia. There is no requirement to register under EU rules as it was declared illegal in 2007 when the cards went. They can only ask for you to inform them that you live here & for which they place you on the 'registro de ciudadano de la union' , the so -called 'green form' which is being referred to as 'residencia'. In addition this is required to be administered once only with no requirement to renew,at no cost, without hindrance , issued on the spot, & in a place local to the citizens abode . I.E. not asking them to drive a return journey of 320kms to comply.
> 
> On all of the above points Spain is & has been breaking EU law in many regions for the last 5 years!
> 
> Under EU rules no country can grant residencia to a citizen from another EU state. The citizen can exercise his right to become a resident if he so wishes.
> Regardless of whether they have a certificate or not , under eu law they are a citizen of the country they are living in from the day they arrived & cannot be discriminated in any shape or form. I.E. differences in IHT or CGt taxation, etc;etc.


you're right - no-one is breaking any law by not registering as resident

the problem is, it is now more difficult to do anything with that bit of paper - for instance, buy a car, register for healthcare, kids in school, etc.,

Spain* is* within its rights to ask or even insist that we prove that we can support ourselves & have access to private healthcare & not be a burden on the state - & is understandably enforcing these rights in times of crisis


but is Spain overstepping the mark by refusing to issue the 'green paper' if you can't prove it? or to stop you living a normal life (buying a car etc.....) without one?

to me, that's the BIG question.......


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I sympathise.....but life has a habit of unfairly dealing the cards. Does anyone expect life to proceed smoothly these days?
> 
> Some people bought properties they couldn't afford in the days when you got a mortgage on the legendary 'pulse and passport'. Others just find they have stumbled on hard times. No Government can look after everyone in trouble, especially in these times. No-one put a gun to people's heads to buy property - it was their free choice. That may sound hard but it's the truth. I have made many costly mistakes in my lifetime....
> 
> Considering the economic mess Spain currently finds itself in, the Government can surely justify putting the interests of Spanish nationals before those of immigrants?


Well yes, it would be justified.... if that were the case.
And I'm sure that's the way it will be presented.

But the reality is that the Spanish Government (and local Governments) do not have Spanish nationals as their priority, otherwise they would be concentrating on finding ways to make life easier for them during this crisis, rather than making cuts in services and prescription charges and making labour laws which are already affecting many employed nationals.
The reality is that the Spanish Government needs money and will do all it can to achieve this. And if that means encouraging foreign businesses here (and offering perks unavailable to nationals as in the 'Euro-Vegas' proposals), they will do this.

As to people buying property they could not afford...
I have no idea whether or not this applies to those with second homes, but for many expats actually living in Spain and making Spain their home, the truth is that they _could_ afford the property at the time and (in our case anyway) did all they could to prove that they could afford to live here too.
Sure, the idea of mortgage with a pulse may have applied in some cases (as it did to some degree in the UK), but I would hazard a guess that, of those Brits who remain here and are not renting, most either bought their property outright or have paid off their mortgages already.




mrypg9 said:


> There was an interesting piece in The Independent about how British and other non-rsidents take advantage of the Spanish health care system. One Dutch woman had registered her mother on the padron (she already had resident status) although her mother actually lived in France. When she required complex surgery she came to live with her daughter in Spain.
> 
> There are many people who cheat the system in this way, no doubt, just as there are many immigrants of all nationalities who work on the black or fiddle IVA to avoid paying tax due. Spain can't support this way of living any longer.


There are always interesting pieces like this in The Independent (or the Daily Mail, etc), and they provide good rallying reading for those who want to blame foreigners for all their woes.

But articles like this do not help the situation.
And they certainly do not help the case of expats living here, who have followed the rules religiously, contributed to the Spanish Economy and may now be targetted as being as expendable as those who have cheated the system.


----------



## Stravinsky

xabiachica said:


> you're right - no-one is breaking any law by not registering as resident
> 
> the problem is, it is now more difficult to do anything with that bit of paper - for instance, buy a car, register for healthcare, kids in school, etc.,
> 
> Spain* is* within its rights to ask or even insist that we prove that we can support ourselves & have access to private healthcare & not be a burden on the state - & is understandably enforcing these rights in times of crisis
> 
> 
> but is Spain overstepping the mark by refusing to issue the 'green paper' if you can't prove it? or to stop you living a normal life (buying a car etc.....) without one?
> 
> to me, that's the BIG question.......


I'd agree, but my thoughts are that they couldnt give a sh!te. After all, the Land Grab was an absolute breach of civil rights and the EU took them to task over it many times ... but they repeatedly ignored them.

The thing is though, I've been perfectly able to support myself here for the last 6 years. But if I had been asked to provide irrevocable proof, other than a bank statement showing regular income, I couldnt have. Thats not shady business or anything, I just dont have a pension or anythiong like that which shows an official figure.


----------



## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> I'd agree, but my thoughts are that they couldnt give a sh!te. After all, the Land Grab was an absolute breach of civil rights and the EU took them to task over it many times ... but they repeatedly ignored them.
> 
> .


sadly you're probably right


----------



## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> you're right - no-one is breaking any law by not registering as resident
> 
> the problem is, it is now more difficult to do anything with that bit of paper - for instance, buy a car, register for healthcare, kids in school, etc.,
> 
> Spain* is* within its rights to ask or even insist that we prove that we can support ourselves & have access to private healthcare & not be a burden on the state - & is understandably enforcing these rights in times of crisis
> 
> 
> but is Spain overstepping the mark by refusing to issue the 'green paper' if you can't prove it? or to stop you living a normal life (buying a car etc.....) without one?
> 
> to me, that's the BIG question.......


Well the eu answer is even if they refuse you the certificate under EU rules that's all they can do. They can't ask you to leave or deport you.

The variations from region to region in everything are staggering. At no time since I have had the certificate have I ever been asked for it in the Murcia region . When I offered it once without being asked years ago I was told "that's worthless" :lol: I was asked for it once in Alicante when buying a car but it wasn't any good as it was a photocopy ! ( they check the papers watermark ) They just used my driving licence instead.


----------



## gus-lopez

Solwriter said:


> The reality is that the Spanish Government needs money and will do all it can to achieve this. And if that means encouraging foreign businesses here (and offering perks unavailable to nationals as in the 'Euro-Vegas' proposals), they will do this.


The euro-vegas project comes down to the choice between Madrid & Barcelona. Once the decision is made it could start tomorrow as Sheldon Adelson has no requirement of finance. What's the stumbling block though ? Oh yes !He wants to bring in foreign labour for all the construction as the Spanish social security & employer tax costs are " too onerous " Says it all really .


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> Well the eu answer is even if they refuse you the certificate under EU rules that's all they can do. They can't ask you to leave or deport you.
> 
> The variations from region to region in everything are staggering. At no time since I have had the certificate have I ever been asked for it in the Murcia region . When I offered it once without being asked years ago I was told "that's worthless" :lol: I was asked for it once in Alicante when buying a car but it wasn't any good as it was a photocopy ! ( they check the papers watermark ) They just used my driving licence instead.


I haven't had to show mine - they didn't even exist when we did all that admin stuff - though at the padrón (changing address) a couple of weeks ago they did ask in passing if I had them, glanced at them (I just waived them at them after taking them out of my folder) - but that was it

I did need it for opening a new bank account recently, too - but again he gave it barely a cursory glance - I read the number out to him!!

however - if 'they' are going to make things difficult for those who don't have one.........


----------



## Bfpijuan

My two-cents about the reference to America. Yes, we have the right to reside in any State. Does not include anything else without "registration" or proof of residency. Let's not even talk about health care!


----------



## xabiaxica

Bfpijuan said:


> My two-cents about the reference to America. Yes, we have the right to reside in any State. Does not include anything else without "registration" or proof of residency. Let's not even talk about health care!


I wasn't referring to America

'the 'United States of Europe' is something that has often been used to describe how the EU would run - a level playing field - everything the same 

perhaps some meant like the US - but mostly it was tongue in cheek & not a direct reference or an aspiration to be like the US


at least that's how I understood it, when it was all coming together as I was growing up


----------



## mrypg9

But the reality is that the Spanish Government (and local Governments) do not have Spanish nationals as their priority, otherwise they would be concentrating on finding ways to make life easier for them during this crisis, rather than making cuts in services and prescription charges *and making labour laws which are already affecting many employed nationals.*


Those labour laws which even after their recent modification are still far too restrictive - the third highest level of redundancy pay in the EU after Portugal and Lithuania - are in themselves unhelpful to promoting growth. As for helping Spaniosh nationals - easy to say but how, at a time when Spain is on the verge of a bailout?
This Government didn't cause this crisis,neither did the Government of Zapatero. Responsibility lies with the companies and individuals who gorged on cheap loans until they choked and the Single Market that allowed the free flow of such credit. According to The EConomist, Spain has a home ownership of 74% and the highest second home ownership rate in the EU. 
As I see it,the Government is within its rights to look for any sources of income. Why should foreigners come here and exploit the country by working on the black and avoiding taxes, to take one obvious example. You and I may pay our taxes but many don't.
Some time ago many posters agreed with my contention that it is only right and natural for people to put their familiies first, before strangers. So why shouldn't the Spanish Government seek to protect the interests of Spanish people, their extended family, nation, tribe whatever you want to call it, first?
Internationalism, solidarity and all those high-minded principles are just that....highminded abstracts which have little effect if any on how people behave in real life.
Putting your fellow-citizens first isn't fascist or whatever...it's just human nature.

If the Spanish Government decioded to tell me to leave tomorrow, I'd ring the removal company. 
Would I be happy? No, of course not.
Would I understand? Yes.


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Those labour laws which even after their recent modification are still far too restrictive - the third highest level of redundancy pay in the EU after Portugal and Lithuania - are in themselves unhelpful to promoting growth. As for helping Spaniosh nationals - easy to say but how, at a time when Spain is on the verge of a bailout?
> This Government didn't cause this crisis,neither did the Government of Zapatero. Responsibility lies with the companies and individuals who gorged on cheap loans until they choked and the Single Market that allowed the free flow of such credit. According to The EConomist, Spain has a home ownership of 74% and the highest second home ownership rate in the EU.
> As I see it,the Government is within its rights to look for any sources of income. Why should foreigners come here and exploit the country by working on the black and avoiding taxes, to take one obvious example. You and I may pay our taxes but many don't.
> Some time ago many posters agreed with my contention that it is only right and natural for people to put their familiies first, before strangers. So why shouldn't the Spanish Government seek to protect the interests of Spanish people, their extended family, nation, tribe whatever you want to call it, first?
> Internationalism, solidarity and all those high-minded principles are just that....highminded abstracts which have little effect if any on how people behave in real life.
> Putting your fellow-citizens first isn't fascist or whatever...it's just human nature.


I wont get into a debate on the new Labour Laws (even though, I admit, I mentioned them as an example ) and who is to blame for this whole xxxxxxx mess (although I agree with you on that).

But I was answering your statement (and now this one) that the Spanish Government will seek to protect the interests of Spanish people.
Sure, immigrants will be a target, along with any other ways of bringing in money which can be thrown into the mix, but I don't think that the average Spanish national can feel safe either.
I have never believed in high minded principles, whatever they concern. They are usually just sop for election campaigns.



mrypg9 said:


> If the Spanish Government decided to tell me to leave tomorrow, I'd ring the removal company.
> Would I be happy? No, of course not.
> Would I understand? Yes.


If the Spanish Government asked me to leave tomorrow, sure I would understand. But I would not agree with their decision.
And I would not be ringing the removal company as we have nowhere to go!
I would be seeking help from any source I could - legal, political, Spain and UK.
Like many others, I have paid into the Spanish system for years and we have contributed to the Spanish Economy in many ways.
We would not go quietly.


----------



## xabiaxica

you couldn't make it up..............

a friend has just posted on our local fb group that she had an appt for 9:30 this morning to change some details on her resident cert. 

they rang her to cancel............... due to changes in the law they have cancelled all appointments


apparently they will be in touch when they know what they are supposed to be doing - maybe someone somewhere has realised that for some people complying with these new rules is a bit of a catch 22?


----------



## jojo

Surely all of this uncertainty and regardless of work prospects, this is one very good reason why people shouldnt even consider moving to Spain to look for work right now

Jo xxx


----------



## purpleflower

xabiachica said:


> you couldn't make it up..............
> 
> a friend has just posted on our local fb group that she had an appt for 9:30 this morning to change some details on her resident cert.
> 
> they rang her to cancel............... due to changes in the law they have cancelled all appointments
> 
> 
> apparently they will be in touch when they know what they are supposed to be doing - maybe someone somewhere has realised that for some people complying with these new rules is a bit of a catch 22?



What happens if someone is here on the 90 day tourist visa and they wont deal with their residencia application, will they have to leave the country or will they be able to wait until things are sorted out, does anyone know the answer to this?


----------



## xabiaxica

purpleflower said:


> What happens if someone is here on the 90 day tourist visa and they wont deal with their residencia application, will they have to leave the country or will they be able to wait until things are sorted out, does anyone know the answer to this?


I don't think anyone does - clearly the offices themselves are confused...........


for a EU citizen it makes no difference

for a non-EU citzen I don't know - maybe all this confusion doesn't affect them - I'd get down there anbd ask PDQ.....


----------



## purpleflower

Thanks Xabia, it all sounds a mess, a friend of ours who has lived here 10 years and dealt with lots of applications for people is going to go to the foreigners office and see what he can find out for us, will update if I get any information, we wont be applying for residency until next week after we get married so will also update about what happens then


----------



## gus-lopez

purpleflower said:


> What happens if someone is here on the 90 day tourist visa and they wont deal with their residencia application, will they have to leave the country or will they be able to wait until things are sorted out, does anyone know the answer to this?


" Under EU rules no country can grant residencia to a citizen from another EU state. The citizen can exercise his right to become a resident if he so wishes.
Regardless of whether they have a certificate or not , under eu law they are a citizen of the country they are living in from the day they arrived & cannot be discriminated in any shape or form. I.E. differences in IHT or CGt taxation, etc;etc. 

They can only ask for you to inform them that you live here & for which they place you on the 'registro de ciudadano de la union' , the so -called 'green form' which is being referred to as 'residencia'. In addition this is required to be administered once only with no requirement to renew,at no cost, without hindrance , issued on the spot, & in a place local to the citizens abode ."

post #47 this thread.


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> " Under EU rules no country can grant residencia to a citizen from another EU state. The citizen can exercise his right to become a resident if he so wishes.
> Regardless of whether they have a certificate or not , under eu law they are a citizen of the country they are living in from the day they arrived & cannot be discriminated in any shape or form. I.E. differences in IHT or CGt taxation, etc;etc.
> 
> They can only ask for you to inform them that you live here & for which they place you on the 'registro de ciudadano de la union' , the so -called 'green form' which is being referred to as 'residencia'. In addition this is required to be administered once only with no requirement to renew,at no cost, without hindrance , issued on the spot, & in a place local to the citizens abode ."
> 
> post #47 this thread.


I do believe that purpleflower's husband to be isn't an EU citizen though - so if _she_ can't register - how can he register as her spouse?


----------



## Solwriter

gus-lopez said:


> " Under EU rules no country can grant residencia to a citizen from another EU state. The citizen can exercise his right to become a resident if he so wishes.
> Regardless of whether they have a certificate or not , under eu law they are a citizen of the country they are living in from the day they arrived & cannot be discriminated in any shape or form. I.E. differences in IHT or CGt taxation, etc;etc.
> 
> They can only ask for you to inform them that you live here & for which they place you on the 'registro de ciudadano de la union' , the so -called 'green form' which is being referred to as 'residencia'. In addition this is required to be administered once only with no requirement to renew,at no cost, without hindrance , issued on the spot, & in a place local to the citizens abode ."
> 
> post #47 this thread.


Yes, but *purpleflower* and her soon-to-be-husband are a slightly different case.
As I remember.... she is an EU citizen but he is not.

edit - but Xabiachica beat me to it.


----------



## purpleflower

Thats right xabia and sol, thats why I was wondering what would happen to him, although I think if he is married to an EU citizen then he gets the same rights as one doesnt he? It all seems very confusing right now


----------



## xabiaxica

purpleflower said:


> Thats right xabia and sol, thats why I was wondering what would happen to him, although I think if he is married to an EU citizen then he gets the same rights as one doesnt he? It all seems very confusing right now


yes he does - in theory & I believe in practice too - but he has to go through the process of getting 'permission'


rubbish timing for you eh?


----------



## purpleflower

Yes, very bad timing, I did do lots of research about it before we came too but this wasnt widely known and I didnt find out until the day after we arrived! Oh well, we are here now so will have to see what we can do, hopefully it will all work out, I just dont want to get into trouble or get deported or something.


----------



## Solwriter

purpleflower said:


> Yes, very bad timing, I did do lots of research about it before we came too but this wasnt widely known and I didnt find out until the day after we arrived! Oh well, we are here now so will have to see what we can do, hopefully it will all work out, I just dont want to get into trouble or get deported or something.


Enjoy your wedding next week.
And lets hope that by then someone, somewhere has got their act together on this....


----------



## purpleflower

Thankyou Sol


----------



## gus-lopez

European Parliament and Council Communication clarifying rules:

EUR-Lex - 52009DC0313 - EN
Click on ES in bilingual diplay for spanish.
2.3. Residence of EU citizens for more than three months

EU citizens have a right of residence in the host Member State if they are economically active there. Students and economically inactive EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover.

The list of documents to be presented with the application for residence is exhaustive. No additional documents can be requested.

2.3.1. Sufficient resources

The notion of ‘sufficient resources’ must be interpreted in the light of the objective of the Directive, which is to facilitate free movement, as long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State.

The first step to assess the existence of sufficient resources should be whether the EU citizen (and family members who derive their right of residence from him or her) would meet the national criteria to be granted the basic social assistance benefit .

EU citizens have sufficient resources where the level of their resources is higher than the threshold under which a minimum subsistence benefit is granted in the host Member State. Where this criterion is not applicable, the minimum social security pension should be taken into account.

Article 8(4) prohibits Member States from laying down a fixed amount to be regarded as "sufficient resources" , either directly or indirectly, below which the right of residence can be automatically refused. The authorities of the Member States must take into account the personal situation of the individual concerned. Resources from a third person must be accepted[26].

National authorities can, when necessary, undertake checks as to the existence of the resources, their lawfulness, amount and availability. The resources do not have to be periodic and can be in the form of accumulated capital. The evidence of sufficient resources cannot be limited[27]. (*)

In assessing whether an individual whose resources can no longer be regarded as sufficient and who was granted the minimum subsistence benefit is or has become an unreasonable burden , the authorities of the Member States must carry out a proportionality test. To this end, Member States may develop for example a points-based scheme as an indicator. Recital 16 of Directive 2004/38 provides three sets of criteria for this purpose:

(1) duration

- For how long is the benefit being granted?

- Outlook: is it likely that the EU citizen will get out of the safety net soon?

- How long has the residence lasted in the host Member State?

(2) personal situation

- What is the level of connection of the EU citizen and his/her family members with the society of the host Member State?

- Are there any considerations pertaining to age, state of health, family and economic situation that need to be taken into account?

(3) amount

- Total amount of aid granted?

- Does the EU citizen have a history of relying heavily on social assistance?

- Does the EU citizen have a history of contributing to the financing of social assistance in the host Member State?

As long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, they cannot be expelled for this reason[28].

Only receipt of social assistance benefits can be considered relevant to determining whether the person concerned is a burden on the social assistance system.

(*) Case C-424/98 Commission v Italy (para 37) - In essence, savings, investments etc. have to be taken into account.


----------



## Solwriter

*Purpleflower*, 
Have a look at the link provided by Gus above and read the entry under *2.1.1. Spouses and partners*.


----------



## purpleflower

Thankyou gus and sol, that is very interesting information


----------



## amchugh66

*Healthcare*

This is what I was told today we require before we apply for Residencia.

Padron + 1 Copy (No older than 4 Week, we have one but we were told it was to old)
Passport +2 copies
Rental Contract + copy ( must be for 11 months)
Declaracion Jurada ( Proof of Income, so no burden on state )
Have been told by Oriheula Costa Town Hall (Playa Flamenca) that to get residencia you need to register S1 first.

I am still having trouble defining what they will accept as the Declaracion Jurada



 Andy


----------



## xabiaxica

amchugh66 said:


> This is what I was told today we require before we apply for Residencia.
> 
> Padron + 1 Copy (No older than 4 Week, we have one but we were told it was to old)
> Passport +2 copies
> Rental Contract + copy ( must be for 11 months)
> Declaracion Jurada ( Proof of Income, so no burden on state )
> Have been told by Oriheula Costa Town Hall (Playa Flamenca) that to get residencia you need to register S1 first.
> 
> I am still having trouble defining what they will accept as the Declaracion Jurada
> 
> 
> 
> Andy


:welcome:

thanks for that 

did you ask if they would accept bank statements? I had heard that bank statements were accepted in Benidorm

presumably the rental contract must be for a _minimum _of 11 months, as opposed to actually 11 months?


----------



## amchugh66

They would accept bank statements from a Spanish bank, we have a spanish bank account but our main account is still a UK bank.
Whether they will accept UK bank statements is the point we are confused about.

An Interpretor I spoke to said UK statements and the letter from uk pensions giving our pension amounts would be ok. 
BUT he also said we would need Residencia before giving our S1 forms in, as I spoke to the Town Hall twice about this and they told me the opposite, I dont know whether he is correct about the first point.

Yes, you are correct about the minimum contract being for 11 months.


----------



## xabiaxica

amchugh66 said:


> They would accept bank statements from a Spanish bank, we have a spanish bank account but our main account is still a UK bank.
> Whether they will accept UK bank statements is the point we are confused about.
> 
> An Interpretor I spoke to said UK statements and the letter from uk pensions giving our pension amounts would be ok.
> BUT he also said we would need Residencia before giving our S1 forms in, as I spoke to the Town Hall twice about this and they told me the opposite, I dont know whether he is correct about the first point.
> 
> Yes, you are correct about the minimum contract being for 11 months.


it's all very confused at the moment 


you can't register for healthcare until you have your resident cert, but maybe you can get the S1s stamped at the INSS office? You have to do that anyway before the health centre will accept them


----------



## chrisnation

_There are many people who cheat the system in this way, no doubt, just as there are many immigrants of all nationalities who work on the black or fiddle IVA to avoid paying tax due. Spain can't support this way of living any longer. _

This is clearly true. However, the drain on the Spanish exchequer by non-Spaniards must be a drop in the ocean compared to the loss of revenue from the avoidance of tax of all sorts by the Spainish themselves.

In trying to establish the trading record of a small guesthouse in Mojacar that a friend and I were considering buying, there being none, the estate agent told us that 60% of the turnover of Andalucia went through the 'black' economy.

When my friend discussed this with his Mallorcin bro-in-law, who is in the hotel business himself, the b-in-l told him in Mallorca about 40% of economic activity went thro' the 'black' economy.

These are staggering figures. Even if they are really only half what we were told, it is revenue lost to an insupportable level.

I showed a friend "Autonomo: The Movie" the other day. She was suitably amused - and appalled. 

The latest Spanish 'crackdown' on money spent on immigrants looks to me like someone flapping at a mosquito while a lion is chewing his leg off.


----------



## Alcalaina

I can well believe those figures. But I still can't see any realistic measures being taken by this government to combat the problem. Offering an amnesty allowing tax-dodgers to pay just 10% of what they owe is about all they've come up with, and what's to stop them just going back to their old ways afterwards?

Also, at the bottom of the scale the black economy is the only way many people can survive, since they can't get contracted jobs and what benefits there are are too low to live on.


----------



## Megsmum

What is the minimum this is v confusing. Does potential income count? IE like us want to buy to let, but not going to buy to let untill i know I can stay!!!!!! How does this work. Does 2 years funds in the bank count as well as property. All a bit chicken and egg?

Ohh my first post!!!!!!!


----------



## Alcalaina

cambio said:


> What is the minimum this is v confusing. Does potential income count? IE like us want to buy to let, but not going to buy to let untill i know I can stay!!!!!! How does this work. Does 2 years funds in the bank count as well as property. All a bit chicken and egg?
> 
> Ohh my first post!!!!!!!


Nobody is quite sure yet, and it varies from region to region, but it looks as if they are looking for a minimum of around €6000 per person p.a. If you have a healthy-looking bank account that should do the trick.


----------



## gus-lopez

chrisnation said:


> _There are many people who cheat the system in this way, no doubt, just as there are many immigrants of all nationalities who work on the black or fiddle IVA to avoid paying tax due. Spain can't support this way of living any longer. _
> 
> This is clearly true. However, the drain on the Spanish exchequer by non-Spaniards must be a drop in the ocean compared to the loss of revenue from the avoidance of tax of all sorts by the Spainish themselves.
> 
> In trying to establish the trading record of a small guesthouse in Mojacar that a friend and I were considering buying, there being none, the estate agent told us that 60% of the turnover of Andalucia went through the 'black' economy.
> 
> When my friend discussed this with his Mallorcin bro-in-law, who is in the hotel business himself, the b-in-l told him in Mallorca about 40% of economic activity went thro' the 'black' economy.
> 
> These are staggering figures. Even if they are really only half what we were told, it is revenue lost to an insupportable level.
> 
> I showed a friend "Autonomo: The Movie" the other day. She was suitably amused - and appalled.
> 
> The latest Spanish 'crackdown' on money spent on immigrants looks to me like someone flapping at a mosquito while a lion is chewing his leg off.



Yep , I reckon those figures are close but a bit on the low side. Friend of mine was advised by accountant ' 1 for the books , 3 in your pocket '! & would not put anything more through the books !!! 

There was a government report a few months back listing all the regions estimated earnings ' on the black' . Cataluña was around 40 billion. I think ours in Murcia was around 2 billion . I seem to recall I posted it in a thread but can't recall which one .


----------



## chrisnation

_Friend of mine was advised by accountant ' 1 for the books , 3 in your pocket '! & would not put anything more through the books !!! _

People keep asking "How can Spain turn this around?" Well, maybe some figure of unimpeachable integrity [if such exists] - a Spanish Mandela or Tutu - could initiate a debate about everybody, including the gov'nt, playing by the rules. Nothing that is done will make much difference if not. No more black economy, no more airports with no planes. It would transform their economy and the life of the country.

Who's old enough to remember the dinner lades at a factory canteen in UK volunteering to do an extra hour free? "I'm Backing Britain" came into being. The bosses sold their Rollers, everybody got behind it. Whether it actually improved the economy I don't recall but it did lift the spirit of the country and engendered a feeling of "together we can beat this"

The Indignados don't seem to have made the connection.


----------



## Ozzieone

xabiachica said:


> this is the up to date info from the consulate
> 
> Healthcare Reform in Spain


Unfortunately this link is no longer available - An update would be greatly appreciated - Thank You


----------



## xabiaxica

Ozzieone said:


> Unfortunately this link is no longer available - An update would be greatly appreciated - Thank You


thanks for reporting that - I have put a new link in the original post


----------



## Ozzieone

Much appreciated - will check it out now!


----------



## JaneyO

Have just read all of the above, bit confused, if that is the case how come Spain can now get away with insisting that applicants for residence certificates prove sufficient income and private healthcare, or entitlement to state healthcare eg S1. 
I have heard recently from a friend who was asked by the police for his residency certificate (green form) and was told he was in breach of the law and could be fined because he had laminated it!


----------



## xabiaxica

JaneyO said:


> Have just read all of the above, bit confused, if that is the case how come Spain can now get away with insisting that applicants for residence certificates prove sufficient income and private healthcare, or entitlement to state healthcare eg S1.
> I have heard recently from a friend who was asked by the police for his residency certificate (green form) and was told he was in breach of the law and could be fined because he had laminated it!


Spain is only doing what other countries in the EU, including the UK, have been doing for some time under EU rules - making sure that anyone who wishes to live here can support themselves financially & won't be a drain on the state & it's healthcare system

it's well known that you mustn't laminate your resident cert - it's a legal document - you wouldn't laminate your passport or your driving licence, would you?


----------



## VFR

xabiachica said:


> it's well known that you mustn't laminate your resident cert - it's a legal document - you wouldn't laminate your passport or your driving licence, would you?


Yes I would if it was A4 sized and I was obliged to carry it around , cannot see an issue myself if the relevant info is on display & of course the folder could be cut to remove if needs must ?


----------



## xabiaxica

playamonte said:


> Yes I would if it was A4 sized and I was obliged to carry it around , cannot see an issue myself if the relevant info is on display & of course the folder could be cut to remove if needs must ?


but you don't have to carry it around - it specifically says on it that it can't be used for ID purposes

lots of offices are issuing credit card sized 'certificates' now anyway


----------



## JaneyO

Obviously it's not well known round here! The paper was falling apart from being constantly folded and refolded. As for the passport and driving licence they don't need it do they!
If you don't have to carry it around why are the police asking to see it on a routine traffic check?


----------



## xabiaxica

JaneyO said:


> Obviously it's not well known round here! The paper was falling apart from being constantly folded and refolded. As for the passport and driving licence they don't need it do they!
> If you don't have to carry it around why are the police asking to see it on a routine traffic check?


they'll be wanting to know if the driver is resident I guess - as a non-driver I've never needed to show any ID to anyone for anything - ever - unless I've been translating at the Guardia or on occasions I know in advance that I'll need it

probably the reason they are now issuing card sized 'certificates' is to solve this problem - although the police can tell on the computer if you have a NIE number or resident cert & a lot of the traffic police have access in the car now

I had to go to the Guardia to get a permission cert for my daughter to leave Spain with the school & forgot to take my res. cert, but I did have my passport - they were able to look up my NIE number on the computer when I gave them my address (even though I've moved since - maybe when I changed the padrón the computers talked to each other :confused2 & my passport was the ID they wanted anyway


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> You have the right to live and work anywhere in europe -
> Jo xxx


Not so, Jo.

Most E.U. member states have imposed quotas on the number of migrants from other E.U. states who travel to seek work.

Only the U.K. and R.O.I allowed totally free entry to post-socialist bloc states after their secession in 2004.

The U.K. has now imposed quotas for some E.U. states -Romania and Bulgaria, I believe - and is considering bringing in more.

The notion that you can move to work anywhere within the E.U. isn't the case.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Not so, Jo.
> 
> Most E.U. member states have imposed quotas on the number of migrants from other E.U. states who travel to seek work.
> 
> Only the U.K. and R.O.I allowed totally free entry to post-socialist bloc states after their secession in 2004.
> 
> The U.K. has now imposed quotas for some E.U. states -Romania and Bulgaria, I believe - and is considering bringing in more.
> 
> The notion that you can move to work anywhere within the E.U. isn't the case.



I bow to your superior knowledge  It used to be that way tho

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Not so, Jo.
> 
> Most E.U. member states have imposed quotas on the number of migrants from other E.U. states who travel to seek work.
> 
> Only the U.K. and R.O.I allowed totally free entry to post-socialist bloc states after their secession in 2004.
> 
> The U.K. has now imposed quotas for some E.U. states -Romania and Bulgaria, I believe - and is considering bringing in more.
> 
> The notion that you can move to work anywhere within the E.U. isn't the case.


are there quotas in Spain?


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I bow to your superior knowledge  It used to be that way tho
> 
> Jo xxx


Superior knowledge....methinks not!:tongue1:

That was the case before May 1st 2004 when several formerly socialist bloc states -Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia - joined the E.U. 
Many E.U. states governments feared a massive influx of workers from these states and the impact it would have on their labour markets.
The U.K. and the R.O.I. welcomed these workers as their labour laws were far more flexible.
The result in the U.K. has been that over a million Poles have come at one time or another to work and this, it seems, has been the main cause behind renewed calls for more restricted immigration from some EU. states.

Whatever may be the picture nationally, there is no doubt that in the Eastern region of the U.K. severe strain was put on education, health and the police services by the huge number of incomers and there was certainly downward pressure on wages. 
Many employers publicly stated that they preferred to employ Eastern Europeans since they allegedly had a better work ethos than indigenous workers.


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> are there quotas in Spain?


I'm not sure but I think it's under discussion. In the past it hasn't been a problem - the majority of immigrants were retired folk not seeking work, I guess.

The imposition of income etc. requirements for would-be immigrants is a different case and as you pointed out is the norm in most E.U. states. We had to provide proof of funds/income in the Czech Republic. I guess Spain is imposing them now because of the crisis and the impact on social services such as health and education.


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure but I think it's under discussion. In the past it hasn't been a problem - the majority of immigrants were retired folk not seeking work, I guess.
> 
> The imposition of income etc. requirements for would-be immigrants is a different case and as you pointed out is the norm in most E.U. states. We had to provide proof of funds/income in the Czech Republic. I guess Spain is imposing them now because of the crisis and the impact on social services such as health and education.


actually I guess stringent application of the income requirement would be more effective in the end in any case


----------



## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> actually I guess stringent application of the income requirement would be more effective in the end in any case


Yes, you're right.

I think the crisis has sharply brought to the fore issues which in better times were taken as given.

Free movement of people, goods and capital are now enshrined in EU law by Treaty.
But when these 'freedoms' turn out to be less than desirable, they will inevitably be questioned.

The recent suggestion from the EU that EU migrants to other EU states should be given access to the full range of benefits available in that state from Day One is frankly ludicrous.

What, I wonder, would be the reaction of a British or German citizen, whose states supply comparatively generous welfare benefits, be to a situation where a Pole, Slovak, Bulgarian etc. can arrive in the UK or Germany never having worked and paid into the system and immediately claim dole, housing benefit, free health care, child allowance and the full range of what the state provides.


Incidentally, the fact that this is currently under discussion gives the lie to those who think this is already the case. But if this is what is meant by 'internationalism'. I'm a Little Englander, I'm afraid. Proposals like this are likely to increase anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment.


----------



## Megsmum

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, you're right.
> 
> I think the crisis has sharply brought to the fore issues which in better times were taken as given.
> 
> Free movement of people, goods and capital are now enshrined in EU law by Treaty.
> But when these 'freedoms' turn out to be less than desirable, they will inevitably be questioned.
> 
> The recent suggestion from the EU that EU migrants to other EU states should be given access to the full range of benefits available in that state from Day One is frankly ludicrous.
> 
> What, I wonder, would be the reaction of a British or German citizen, whose states supply comparatively generous welfare benefits, be to a situation where a Pole, Slovak, Bulgarian etc. can arrive in the UK or Germany never having worked and paid into the system and immediately claim dole, housing benefit, free health care, child allowance and the full range of what the state provides.
> 
> 
> Incidentally, the fact that this is currently under discussion gives the lie to those who think this is already the case. But if this is what is meant by 'internationalism'. I'm a Little Englander, I'm afraid. Proposals like this are likely to increase anti-immigrant and anti-EU sentiment.


we would a couple like us stand
we will buy outright
we will have pension income - but will be under state pension age
we will have money in the bank.
We will have first 2 years health insurance and then review

Do we/should we ask for residency. I'm a bit confused. We would not be looking for work, but may do lettings either in spain or uk but thats another ramble?


----------



## xabiaxica

cambio said:


> we would a couple like us stand
> we will buy outright
> we will have pension income - but will be under state pension age
> we will have money in the bank.
> We will have first 2 years health insurance and then review
> 
> Do we/should we ask for residency. I'm a bit confused. We would not be looking for work, but may do lettings either in spain or uk but thats another ramble?


you have no choice

if you live in Spain for more than 90 days you have to register as resident

you shouldn't have a problem though - if you own property here outright & have sufficient income & savings then you'll be fine

as far as healthcare provision is concerned, if you have enough NI contributions in the UK then you would get S1 forms which would cover you here for up to 2 years - otherwise you'd need private cover


----------



## Megsmum

xabiachica said:


> you have no choice
> 
> if you live in Spain for more than 90 days you have to register as resident
> 
> you shouldn't have a problem though - if you own property here outright & have sufficient income & savings then you'll be fine
> 
> as far as healthcare provision is concerned, if you have enough NI contributions in the UK then you would get S1 forms which would cover you here for up to 2 years - otherwise you'd need private cover


WOHOOOOOOO:clap2::clap2::clap2:
Thanks
This forum is great on several levels

and I am off to post my thoughts now


----------



## romeijn

mrypg9 said:


> Not so, Jo.
> 
> Most E.U. member states have imposed quotas on the number of migrants from other E.U. states who travel to seek work.
> 
> Only the U.K. and R.O.I allowed totally free entry to post-socialist bloc states after their secession in 2004.
> 
> The U.K. has now imposed quotas for some E.U. states -Romania and Bulgaria, I believe - and is considering bringing in more.
> 
> The notion that you can move to work anywhere within the E.U. isn't the case.


Sorry but you are WRONG on any and all levels of your post.

EU members are entitled to impose restrictions ONLY on citizen of NEW member states. This is why Romanians and Bulgarians are in some countries still restricted.

NO EU member can instate or reinstate ANY restriction on the freedom of movement (right to live and work anywhere in the EU) of citizen of non-new member states.

ANYBODY (excluded those from new member states of which there are only 2 namely Romania and Bulgaria) can work and live ANYWHERE in the EU. Period. This is one of the four BASIC RIGHTS that form the foundation of the EU.

NO EU member has ever even tried to restrict the freedom of movement. They may wish to do so but they absolutely cannot.

BTW the restrictions placed on new member states are time-bound and cannot be permanent. Most countries already allow Romanians and Bulgarians to enjoy the full rights of the EU membership. Those that currently do not, must lift ANY and ALL restrictions by 01 January 2014 as per the ascension treaty of those two countries. This is NOT something optional it is the LAW.


----------



## romeijn

Sorry, but he is very, very much WRONG.


----------



## LojaChica

I have read this thread from the beginning...............thank you

Sorry if I appear stupid but can anyone give me some further clarification?

I own a property outright purchased 10 years ago, I have healthy savings, will not be working so can't show a "regular" income, we are all UK Citizens and as I've lived outside the UK for the last 5 years I will have to get private healthcare............

CAN I actually LIVE in Spain on a permanent basis?

Myself, Husband 45 and 47 and !2 year old Daughter.................Oh Jeez I do hope so otherwise that's all my forward planning gone out of the window

Thank you in advance


----------



## xabiaxica

LojaChica said:


> I have read this thread from the beginning...............thank you
> 
> Sorry if I appear stupid but can anyone give me some further clarification?
> 
> I own a property outright purchased 10 years ago, I have healthy savings, will not be working so can't show a "regular" income, we are all UK Citizens and as I've lived outside the UK for the last 5 years I will have to get private healthcare............
> 
> CAN I actually LIVE in Spain on a permanent basis?
> 
> Myself, Husband 45 and 47 and !2 year old Daughter.................Oh Jeez I do hope so otherwise that's all my forward planning gone out of the window
> 
> Thank you in advance



yes, as long as your savings are enough to satisfy the govt that you can support yourselves you can register as resident - & 'healthy savings' & a property owned outright _should , _since most reports are that as little as 5000€ per person (or less) is all that is required 


when are you coming :clap2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

romeijn said:


> Sorry but you are WRONG on any and all levels of your post.
> 
> EU members are entitled to impose restrictions ONLY on citizen of NEW member states. This is why Romanians and Bulgarians are in some countries still restricted.
> 
> NO EU member can instate or reinstate ANY restriction on the freedom of movement (right to live and work anywhere in the EU) of citizen of non-new member states.
> 
> ANYBODY (excluded those from new member states of which there are only 2 namely Romania and Bulgaria) can work and live ANYWHERE in the EU. Period. This is one of the four BASIC RIGHTS that form the foundation of the EU.
> 
> NO EU member has ever even tried to restrict the freedom of movement. They may wish to do so but they absolutely cannot.
> 
> BTW the restrictions placed on new member states are time-bound and cannot be permanent. Most countries already allow Romanians and Bulgarians to enjoy the full rights of the EU membership. Those that currently do not, must lift ANY and ALL restrictions by 01 January 2014 as per the ascension treaty of those two countries. This is NOT something optional it is the LAW.


Yes, that sounds right and you have stated it very clearly.
However, it seems to me that everything in the EU is LAW and is NOT OPTIONAL until a state decides that it doesn't want to do it!
What was it that Germany did the moment it was a member? I don't remember what it was now, but something that was totally against the EU LAW!!
And look at this from the FT

​


> Under article 20 of the German constitution, the Grundgesetz, the German people are sovereign and exercise that sovereignty through the institutions of the German state. Now it is true that the Court of Justice of the European Union asserts that EU law is paramount,* but that position has never been accepted by the German federal constitutional court, *which has repeatedly said that ultimate sovereignty resides in Germany. The constitutional court has doughtily defended the rights of the Bundestag, as the democratically elected representative of the German people, against Brussels’ claims to the contrary.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/81f89b08-0968-11e2-a5e3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2OdCj1ggh


----------



## LojaChica

xabiachica said:


> yes, as long as your savings are enough to satisfy the govt that you can support yourselves you can register as resident - & 'healthy savings' & a property owned outright _should , _since most reports are that as little as 5000€ per person (or less) is all that is required
> 
> 
> when are you coming :clap2:


Ahhhh such a relief! 

Thank You for your reply

No set date as yet as I've recently had spinal surgery so I'm waiting to be signed off by the Neurosurgeon but Shippers/Pet Shippers all researched and booked...........Aussie House sold, currently in a short term rental.........currently trying to find a way around the Pet Embargo for the Summer months and think I may have found a solution 

Daughter booked into a Summer Language Residential Camp in Granada in August to help her settle in which is on a farm in Dorcal so she's looking forward to that!

Really looking forward to unpacking my boxes which have been sitting in Spain since 2007 and making my House a "Home"............it will be like Christmas all over again as I can't remember what's in them!

I have worked towards this for such a long time that when we do eventually get the "Green Light" I will be annoying you all by posting a thread and shouting rather loudly across cyber space


----------



## acidliam

Hi,

Sorry if this questions been answered but I couldn't find anything quite like my circumstances reading through.

We're moving to Ibiza in a couple of weeks. I work for a Ltd company in the UK and will continue to do so remotely from Ibiza. (its my company, I'm just the sole employee and I basically earn a wage that works out to around £30-35k a year, its quite a standard practice) We're spending most of our savings on the move, so won't have a huge lump sum to show (deffos not €5k, Ibiza is not cheap) once we get there.

However I can show I can support myself, in that I have a 'wage' from this ltd company, will that be accepted? I'm thinking a gestor might be in order to explain the circumstances if so.


----------



## agua642

Hi, yes I would have thought that evidence of having a ltd company and a few notes sitting in a bank account on a regular basis will satisfy them. 
Hope you enjoy Ibiza I lived there for about 20 years its a beautiful island, can I ask whereabouts in Ibiza you'll be living? I'm on mainland Spain now, but I do miss Ibiza so much, if I found the right opportunity I'd happily return..  good luck


----------



## xabiaxica

acidliam said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry if this questions been answered but I couldn't find anything quite like my circumstances reading through.
> 
> We're moving to Ibiza in a couple of weeks. I work for a Ltd company in the UK and will continue to do so remotely from Ibiza. (its my company, I'm just the sole employee and I basically earn a wage that works out to around £30-35k a year, its quite a standard practice) We're spending most of our savings on the move, so won't have a huge lump sum to show (deffos not €5k, Ibiza is not cheap) once we get there.
> 
> However I can show I can support myself, in that I have a 'wage' from this ltd company, will that be accepted? I'm thinking a gestor might be in order to explain the circumstances if so.


:welcome:

yes, proof of income from anywhere will usually be accepted (they don't much care about the source, just that you have it) - most foreigners offices will want this shown into a Spanish bank account, so open a non-resident account as soon as you arrive & start having regular funds transferred over, so that you can show this by the time you have to register as resident

after you have registered, simply have the account changed to a resident account (lower bank charges & taxes)


----------



## acidliam

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> yes, proof of income from anywhere will usually be accepted (they don't much care about the source, just that you have it) - most foreigners offices will want this shown into a Spanish bank account, so open a non-resident account as soon as you arrive & start having regular funds transferred over, so that you can show this by the time you have to register as resident
> 
> after you have registered, simply have the account changed to a resident account (lower bank charges & taxes)


Thats not a bad idea! We have just opened a UK Santander account so we can use their cash machines for free but will do that too when we arrive and have an NIE. Thanks, great advice.


----------



## acidliam

agua642 said:


> Hi, yes I would have thought that evidence of having a ltd company and a few notes sitting in a bank account on a regular basis will satisfy them.
> Hope you enjoy Ibiza I lived there for about 20 years its a beautiful island, can I ask whereabouts in Ibiza you'll be living? I'm on mainland Spain now, but I do miss Ibiza so much, if I found the right opportunity I'd happily return..  good luck


Sorry missed this one. We're going to the north. Obviously its peak season now so its been crazy finding a house but we've got one in Es Canar till the end of Sept, and the option to stay on. Was originally planning on moving to Sant Josep as we know the south better, but it seems Santa Eulalia stays busy in the winter and is much more family friendly for expats. We've got a little boy whos just approaching 1 so got a feeling we'll stay up that way for a while.

Where did you live? I've been going for years, have been every year since now for 12 or 13 years, despite seeing a lot of the rest of the world I alway seemed to end up in Ibiza even if it was just for a few days! Even did a couple of summer seasons in San An back in my youth.


----------



## thomas541

would proving to authorities you do have a private insurance policy from a Spanish insurer (costs around EUR 400-500 a year I think) + some money in the bank say EUR 30,000) suffice to get permanent (renewable) residency ?

thanks


----------



## xabiaxica

thomas541 said:


> would proving to authorities you do have a private insurance policy from a Spanish insurer (costs around EUR 400-500 a year I think) + some money in the bank say EUR 30,000) suffice to get permanent (renewable) residency ?
> 
> thanks


:welcome:

for an EU citizen it certainly should!


generally a bank balance of +/- 6000 € is accepted


----------



## thomas541

Hola  

thanks. so say EUR 10,000 AND a paid private health insurance policy would suffice for a 5year residency green card

must it be a Spanish bank ? they are not in a good shape  and if things turn worse, we might see a "à la Cyprus" raid on bank accounts.

What about an account with a non Spanish bank ?

muchas gracias


----------



## xabiaxica

thomas541 said:


> Hola
> 
> thanks. so say EUR 10,000 AND a paid private health insurance policy would suffice for a 5year residency green card
> 
> must it be a Spanish bank ? they are not in a good shape  and if things turn worse, we might see a "à la Cyprus" raid on bank accounts.
> 
> What about an account with a non Spanish bank ?
> 
> muchas gracias


yes, a bank in Spain


----------



## gus-lopez

thomas541 said:


> Hola
> 
> thanks. so say EUR 10,000 AND a paid private health insurance policy would suffice for a 5year residency green card


There will be no time limit on the residency.


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## agua642

Hi. Es Canar is lovely and family oriented great for kids yes Santa Eulalia is a nice place for ex-pats during winter months a good time to mingle with locals & make new friends! 
I lived closer to Ibiza in a small village named Puig den valls, it's lovely and with 15-20 mins walking distance to Ibiza. 
I know Ibiza like the back of my hand so feel free to ask for any advice.
We are planing to visit in Sept, hoping to catch a business opportunity, after all it's my home! 
Have fun


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## chrisnation

*Bank Balance*



xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> for an EU citizen it certainly should!
> 
> 
> generally a bank balance of +/- 6000 € is accepted


These figs are being hurled around with gay abandon but 

A] can anyone come up with a Spanish authority's say-so? 

B] My understanding was that the fig of +/- Euros 5k was a _per annum_ income fig, not a bottom line on a bank statement.

C] Spanish private health policies of very reasonable cost have been mentioned in these pages before but, despite requests, nobody has ever replied to my question about where such a policy can be had. I'd be grateful for some pointers.


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## xabiaxica

chrisnation said:


> These figs are being hurled around with gay abandon but
> 
> A] can anyone come up with a Spanish authority's say-so?
> 
> B] My understanding was that the fig of +/- Euros 5k was a _per annum_ income fig, not a bottom line on a bank statement.
> 
> C] Spanish private health policies of very reasonable cost have been mentioned in these pages before but, despite requests, nobody has ever replied to my question about where such a policy can be had. I'd be grateful for some pointers.


it seems to vary a bit from office to office

I know someone personally who had to show a monthly income of 625€ OR 6000€ in the bank, shown as a balance on the day of registration (that was in Denia)

others have reported being told by their local office that they need both (similar figures) 

as for health insurance - take a look at the _*FAQs & useful info *_sticky thread above - there's a post there with insurance comparison sites where you can get online quotes

certainly when we had private health insurance here we were paying less than 18 years previously in the UK....


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## thomas541

xabiachica said:


> it seems to vary a bit from office to office
> 
> I know someone personally who had to show a monthly income of 625€ OR 6000€ in the bank, shown as a balance on the day of registration (that was in Denia)
> 
> others have reported being told by their local office that they need both (similar figures)
> 
> as for health insurance - take a look at the _*FAQs & useful info *_sticky thread above - there's a post there with insurance comparison sites where you can get online quotes
> 
> certainly when we had private health insurance here we were paying less than 18 years previously in the UK....


at some point we won't be surprised to see pensions in some member States
to be seriously impaired btw... as the crisis worsens or comes back (depending on which States, banks etc are affected).


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## LojaChica

I am shouting LOUDLY from Cyberspace as I said I would.............I AM HERE............and I couldn't be happier 
Got my Residencia today so I'm celebrating  and yes I had to get Healthcare too!


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## extranjero

Why can child benefit from the UK be claimed in Spain?


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## Stravinsky

extranjero said:


> Why can child benefit from the UK be claimed in Spain?


It can be claimed in the UK in instances if for instance the wife and kids are resident in Spain, but the Father is resident in the UK and is paying into the system / working. I believe it has to be paid in the UK though to the father .. I may be wrong

This, from the HMRC Site

"You may be able to get Child Benefit if you are responsible for a child, and both of the following apply:

you live in another European Economic Area (EEA) country or Switzerland, and work in the UK - it doesn't matter whether you're employed or self employed
you are a national of an EEA country or Switzerland

You could also qualify for Child Benefit if you live in an EEA country or Switzerland, and receive a National Insurance-related benefit from the UK. For example, State Pension.

EEA countries are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK."


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## el pescador

I still dont get the bit about earnings.
I have little earnings but have plenty of cash as i got cash for half a property a year ago.
Obviously some is invested.

I take it as long as i show bank statements im fine?
And would i still ahve to have 650 euros a month income?

Also re health cover.
Im not going to be technically covered 100% as ive been declined cover for operations on two issues (pre existing conditions).
I have the funds to cover an op though and tbh i would go back home if one in particular of those issues arose.

Would i be refused residency on that?

Also have i read this right?
If you have been here a year you can buy into the health system for 60 euros a month?


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## xabiaxica

el pescador said:


> I still dont get the bit about earnings.
> I have little earnings but have plenty of cash as i got cash for half a property a year ago.
> Obviously some is invested.
> 
> I take it as long as i show bank statements im fine?
> And would i still ahve to have 650 euros a month income?
> 
> Also re health cover.
> Im not going to be technically covered 100% as ive been declined cover for operations on two issues (pre existing conditions).
> I have the funds to cover an op though and tbh i would go back home if one in particular of those issues arose.
> 
> Would i be refused residency on that?
> 
> Also have i read this right?
> If you have been here a year you can buy into the health system for 60 euros a month?


you shouldn't be refused if you have sufficient money in a Spanish bank - but you will have to show that you have healthcare cover of one form or another


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## mrypg9

romeijn said:


> Sorry but you are WRONG on any and all levels of your post.
> 
> EU members are entitled to impose restrictions ONLY on citizen of NEW member states. This is why Romanians and Bulgarians are in some countries still restricted.
> 
> NO EU member can instate or reinstate ANY restriction on the freedom of movement (right to live and work anywhere in the EU) of citizen of non-new member states.
> 
> ANYBODY (excluded those from new member states of which there are only 2 namely Romania and Bulgaria) can work and live ANYWHERE in the EU. Period. This is one of the four BASIC RIGHTS that form the foundation of the EU.
> 
> NO EU member has ever even tried to restrict the freedom of movement. They may wish to do so but they absolutely cannot.
> 
> BTW the restrictions placed on new member states are time-bound and cannot be permanent. Most countries already allow Romanians and Bulgarians to enjoy the full rights of the EU membership. Those that currently do not, must lift ANY and ALL restrictions by 01 January 2014 as per the ascension treaty of those two countries. This is NOT something optional it is the LAW.


Have just seen this....
Until January of this year the UK imposed restrictions on the entry of Romanian and Bulgarian citizens wishing to work in the UK. After the accession of the post- socialist states in 2004 only the UK and ROI allowed free access for migrants seeking work. Spain is now imposing income and other requirements.
Now whatever the Treaties may say, that doesn't seem like free access to me!.
The UK has also deferred access to benefits for migrants seeking employment although I believe those who register as self- employed have immediate access to all UK benefits.
When we lived in the Czech Republic we had to prove sufficient income and health cover before being given Temporary Residency. The CR has two categories of residency.
So yes, any EU citizen can visit another EU member state. But visiting, working and living are very different things and in all EU member states some restrictions have been in place since 2004.
Spain is certainly restricting the right of residency. So you can freely move but not freely stay. So much for the ' basic rights'.


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## el pescador

xabiachica said:


> you shouldn't be refused if you have sufficient money in a Spanish bank - but you will have to show that you have healthcare cover of one form or another


Thanks
Yeah i will have cover but reading different opinions I'm not sure what coverage counts?
The government say you have to have the equivalent of the national health (Spanish) but technically i wont be as there are 2 previous issues which will not be covered for operations (unless i pay or go back to the UK to get done).
Im covered for checkups and scans on those just not the ops.

Also can i buy a car in Spain without the residencia?


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## Megsmum

el pescador said:


> Thanks
> Yeah i will have cover but reading different opinions I'm not sure what coverage counts?
> The government say you have to have the equivalent of the national health (Spanish) but technically i wont be as there are 2 previous issues which will not be covered for operations (unless i pay or go back to the UK to get done).
> Im covered for checkups and scans on those just not the ops.
> 
> Also can i buy a car in Spain without the residencia?


My understanding is the NHS will not cover you in the UK if you are resident in Spain?


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## mrypg9

Just a thought...what happens if you turn up, rent a property, don't register as resident after the required amount of time? 
You can't be thrown out, can you, so do you get fined?


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## xabiaxica

cambio said:


> My understanding is the NHS will not cover you in the UK if you are resident in Spain?


yes, atm

although that's more than likely changing in April

there's a thread about it somewhere


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## el pescador

cambio said:


> My understanding is the NHS will not cover you in the UK if you are resident in Spain?


tbh is unlikely anyway but you know how health insurance people work.
If it does re occur its down to a failed first op...and i think it would have re occured by now anyway had it failed.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Just a thought...what happens if you turn up, rent a property, don't register as resident after the required amount of time?
> You can't be thrown out, can you, so do you get fined?


you can be fined, if caught

the main thing really is that without that resident cert/card your hands are tied as far as lots of things are concerened


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## GUAPACHICA

*More changes EU-wide!*

Hi - I have just been reading this news about changes to EU Health legislation - on the '_El Pais_' online website. was going to post it under _'La Tasca_', but now think it is relevant to this thread. I hope I'm right: 

Government warned Euro-healthcare scheme will lead to longer waiting lists | In English | EL PAÍS

I can't imagine that either the UK or Spanish Governments are going to be thrilled that all EU citizens will, very soon, have the right to obtain their medical care in the member state of their choice - with reimbursement from their own countries! 

What do you think this might mean for ourselves, as expats. or immigrants in Spain? Might Spanish hospitals become inundated with patients from across the EU? 

The UK's NHS is still being afflicted by _'scandals'_, according to the country's media - so, maybe, there will be no huge influx of EU citizens seeking medical treatment within its facilities...

Saludos,
GC


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> you can be fined, if caught
> 
> the main thing really is that without that resident cert/card your hands are tied as far as lots of things are concerened


So 'free movement' is an idea rather than reality.
As I thought.
The EU has seen very many Treaties and Directives but not all member states have followed either the spirit or letter of the various laws.
Free movement is a fiction if you must satisfy certain requirements in order to live a normal life.
You can move but not stay still, it seems!


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## Pesky Wesky

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I have just been reading this news about changes to EU Health legislation - on the '_El Pais_' online website. was going to post it under _'La Tasca_', but now think it is relevant to this thread. I hope I'm right:
> 
> Government warned Euro-healthcare scheme will lead to longer waiting lists | In English | EL PAÃ�S
> 
> I can't imagine that either the UK or Spanish Governments are going to be thrilled that all EU citizens will, very soon, have the right to obtain their medical care in the member state of their choice - with reimbursement from their own countries!
> 
> What do you think this might mean for ourselves, as expats. or immigrants in Spain? Might Spanish hospitals become inundated with patients from across the EU?
> 
> The UK's NHS is still being afflicted by _'scandals'_, according to the country's media - so, maybe, there will be no huge influx of EU citizens seeking medical treatment within its facilities...
> 
> Saludos,
> GC


RE waiting lists...
OH has a dodgy back so after many lumbago attacks (and they really are attacks!) and other troubles his doctor has sent him off to been seen by the specialists. He was told to wait for a phone call for an appointment for a MIR I think it is. No phone call after 10 days so he phoned them. He was told "the lists are closed" ¿¿?? This medical worker couldn't give any more information as to when he could expect an appointment, so we began to think of going private. A week later I took a phone call where they told me he has been given an appointment for *Sunday *at the end of Feb! What do you think of that!?


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## el pescador

someone backed out of their appointment?

I always used to phone regularly if they gave me an initial date a few months down the line because you are likely to be moved forward when people cancel.

In the UK of course


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## Alcalaina

Just read this in the Torygraph, about the of the withdrawal of S1 cover for early retirers.

NHS axes free health care for expats - Telegraph



> The British government is set to scrap a facility by which UK citizens under the state retirement age can get free treatment in countries such as Spain and France when they do not qualify through employment.
> 
> The change is likely to occur on April 1, according to the Department of Health. It is one of series of cost-saving moves under review across the National Health Service.
> 
> It means that the NHS will no longer reimburse another European state for health costs incurred by non-working Britons under pensionable age.
> 
> Currently, many unemployed expats under age 65 (or women under 60) within the European Economic Area effectively pass their care costs to the Treasury.


There was mention in the original consultation document about British citizens being able to return to the UK for treatment, but this seems to have gone by the wayside.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Just read this in the Torygraph, about the of the withdrawal of S1 cover for early retirers.
> 
> NHS axes free health care for expats - Telegraph
> 
> 
> 
> There was mention in the original consultation document about British citizens being able to return to the UK for treatment, but this seems to have gone by the wayside.


and yet again - ExpatForum broke the news first 

I wonder if the newspapers get a lot of their info from forums??


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## Alcalaina

el pescador said:


> I still dont get the bit about earnings.
> I have little earnings but have plenty of cash as i got cash for half a property a year ago.
> Obviously some is invested.
> 
> I take it as long as i show bank statements im fine?
> And would i still ahve to have 650 euros a month income?
> 
> Also re health cover.
> Im not going to be technically covered 100% as ive been declined cover for operations on two issues (pre existing conditions).
> I have the funds to cover an op though and tbh i would go back home if one in particular of those issues arose.
> 
> Would i be refused residency on that?
> 
> Also have i read this right?
> If you have been here a year you can buy into the health system for 60 euros a month?


You only have to show this evidence at the time you are applying for residency. I seriously doubt they are going to look into the minutiae of your insurance cover, and nobody is going to come round every year and check how much you've got in the bank.

Yes, you can buy into the Spanish healthcare system in certain regions but not all. Details here: https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-in-spain


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## el pescador

Thanks again.


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