# alternative power



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> What would I do if I was in charge; I don't even know where to start as the list appears to be endless.


I'd start by putting ALL freight and containers on the railways - with only short runs to their final destinations! Huge lorries on motorways take up soooo much space and are infuriating, especially when they take forever to overtake each other and look at how much road space they take up - one large articulated lorry can be as long as three cars!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I'd start by putting ALL freight and containers on the railways - with only short runs to their final destinations! Huge lorries on motorways take up soooo much space and are infuriating, especially when they take forever to overtake each other and look at how much road space they take up - one large articulated lorry can be as long as three cars!
> 
> Jo xxx


:clap2::clap2::clap2: Yessss!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2: Yessss!!!


This is getting spooky - you and me agreeing????????????????? :confused2:

Jo xxxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> I'd start by putting ALL freight and containers on the railways - with only short runs to their final destinations! Huge lorries on motorways take up soooo much space and are infuriating, especially when they take forever to overtake each other and look at how much road space they take up - one large articulated lorry can be as long as three cars!
> 
> Jo xxx


My neighbours son , who is an international driver, has been flogging this to death for years . He's even got some of it on a web-site he has. He makes many valid points like in Switzerland the lorries drive on to freight trains & are transported across country. In the UK even Stobarts have invested in their own trains ! It makes far more sense but then again , like the Uk, the Spanish would have to rebuild a lot of the railway that they took out years ago ! 
Just for your info. Jo the EC are looking at increasing the size of lorries to 60 Tonnes & allowing longer lengths.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> Just for your info. Jo the EC are looking at increasing the size of lorries to 60 Tonnes & allowing longer lengths.


...... of course they are    

Jo xxxx


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

The UK and I suspect most of Europe simply does not have the rail infrastructure in place, or the financing available for upgrading to switch to moving trucks off the road and onto trains; its pie in the sky, will never happen sad as that may be  The reference to 'just in time' stock control is very valid, most large supermarkets only have at most, 72 hours on stock on the shelf and often its less.

Do people stick to speed limits? Naa, they certainly don't in the UK. I don't miss commuting into Cardiff everyday thats for sure, some idiots driving so slow they are a danger, lots of idiots driving too fast


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> The UK and I suspect most of Europe simply does not have the rail infrastructure in place, or the financing available for upgrading to switch to moving trucks off the road and onto trains; its pie in the sky, will never happen sad as that may be  The reference to 'just in time' stock control is very valid, most large supermarkets only have at most, 72 hours on stock on the shelf and often its less.
> 
> Do people stick to speed limits? Naa, they certainly don't in the UK. I don't miss commuting into Cardiff everyday thats for sure, some idiots driving so slow they are a danger, lots of idiots driving too fast


Not all freight is time-sensitive though. We live near the motorway that goes to Algeciras, which has a ferry route to Tangiers in Morocco, and there are thousands of lorries belting up and down laden with vehicles and heavy machinery which should by rights be transported by rail.

The proposed Mediterranean Railway Corridor will take freight to and from Algeciras right to the heart of Europe:

_The Mediterranean Railway Corridor would link Northern-Africa and Southern-Spain with Central Europe, along Spain’s Mediterranean. It would also link these territories in a European standard rail width, and not the Iberian rail width, for freight and goods transportation. Goods would go from Algeciras, València or Barcelona harbours to Lyon, Hamburg or Stockholm in the same train without stops and changes in the borders. Currently, goods have to stop in Portbou (Spain-France border), change trains and start again. The operation lasts more than 6 hours and represents an extra cost. In addition, trains are smaller and go slower, as in some points there is only one track and they are obliged to stop and wait. In addition, the project would foresee a separate High Speed Railway along the Mediterranean for passengers. It is thus a key project for the Mediterranean’s shore economy, but also for the entire Spain and the European Union. Goods from the Mediterranean harbours and Northern-Africa would be transported faster to Central Europe. In addition, it would foster Spain's main economic engine, waging for industry and exports in times of crisis._​The Spanish Government says now that both the Mediterranean and the Mid-Pyrenees Railway Corridors are priority | Catalan News Agency


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Great plan, but broadly speaking getting trucks off the road won't happen in any big way. Can't see them building a depot in Merthyr, transporting whatever, unloading it, loading it onto trucks to drive down the congested roads for delivery; same in any town or city. About as much chance of this happening as you have of wind turbines producing useful amounts of energy, its another no hoper.

I'd like to see heavy trucks banned from motorways from say dusk Friday until dawn on Monday to give the little people a bit more room.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Great plan, but broadly speaking getting trucks off the road won't happen in any big way. Can't see them building a depot in Merthyr, transporting whatever, unloading it, loading it onto trucks to drive down the congested roads for delivery; same in any town or city. About as much chance of this happening as you have of wind turbines producing useful amounts of energy, its another no hoper.
> 
> I'd like to see heavy trucks banned from motorways from say dusk Friday until dawn on Monday to give the little people a bit more room.


Perhaps not Merthyr, but increasing trade with North Africa and the distinct possibility of more car assembly plants in Morocco does make this Algeciras link very viable.

And renewable energy is approaching 20% here now - I reckon that's a useful contribution.

Anyway I'm off to Cardiff on Saturday so we'll have to compare notes when I get back!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Great plan, but broadly speaking getting trucks off the road won't happen in any big way. Can't see them building a depot in Merthyr, transporting whatever, unloading it, loading it onto trucks to drive down the congested roads for delivery; same in any town or city. About as much chance of this happening as you have of wind turbines producing useful amounts of energy, its another no hoper.
> 
> I'd like to see heavy trucks banned from motorways from say dusk Friday until dawn on Monday to give the little people a bit more room.


Like they are in Germany , but on all routes. If they did that here there'd be some hungry people in northern europe unless they employed more drivers & vehicles. Then the cost would go up.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

playamonte said:


> So just what should the government have done then to try to alleviate the *expected* shortage in supply, yes when the troubles first kicked off it seemed likely that the supply would suffer.
> 
> Reducing speed on the motorway *will* save fuel & of course so will a lot of other measures, but the other measures would/will take a long time to educate those who are unaware & its clear that many are not aware when you look around.
> Still having said that to me its obvious that many drivers are now driving a lot slower since fuel prices have climbed over the past year.
> ...


Personally I'd have thought that they'd have been better waiting until they knew for certain that there would be a shortfall rather than waste millions that they don't have assuming.
Yes, I've noticed a small reduction in speed but put that down to the advent of points on licences. having said that we've got a 'ghost' autopista here ( Vera - Cartegena) which many use to test there top speed !!
I've posted previously about the lack of infrastucture around here for shipments by rail & the price reductions are not a lot of use if you don't have any trains. Come to think of it a bus might be nice. All these measures are a bit of window dressing really. The people in the countryside rely on vehicles as there's nothing else. Although I live in the campo , I'm nearly in town & there's nothing here , you've got to have a vehicle. Two really, in case one breaks down !


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## BlySky (Feb 21, 2011)

natalieml said:


> They´ve decided instead of lowering tax on the rising fuel costs to reduce the maximum speed limit on the motorways from 120KM/HR to 110KM/HR as this will reduce fuel consumption WTF
> 
> 
> you serious !!! WTF


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Personally I'd have thought that they'd have been better waiting until they knew for certain that there would be a shortfall rather than waste millions that they don't have assuming.


It's not about a possible shortfall, they have already said that there isn't one. It's about the inevitable price increases (caused by speculation and stockpiling), as well as addressing pollution issues.

The Cabinet's decision to reduce speed limits on Spain's highways and cut the price of train tickets - in part because of soaring oil prices in the wake of the Libyan revolution - is just one of a battery of measures that Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba and Industry Minister Miguel Sebastián will hammer out with regional and municipal authorities in the coming days. The aim of the meetings will be to discuss ways in which the ingrained consumption habits of Spanish citizens can be altered.

Rubalcaba has stated that Spain is not in danger of being blacked out by the withdrawal from Libya of several oil companies - "we have sufficient reserves and there are no problems with supply" - but the situation has cast unfavorable light on the country's dependency on oil: more than 80 percent of Spain's energy requirements are imported. In 2010, Spain bought over 25 billion barrels of oil.

The temporary reduction in the maximum speed limit - 110kmph from 120kmph - is due to come into effect on March 7 and will save 1.4 billion euros in oil imports at current prices, but will also signify a reduction in hydrocarbon tax revenues. The loss to state coffers is estimated at 530 million euros, without taking VAT decreases into account."​Government to hammer out further energy-saving measures · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> It's not about a possible shortfall, they have already said that there isn't one. It's about the inevitable price increases (caused by speculation and stockpiling), as well as addressing pollution issues. So then it's not going to be a temporary measure then , is it ?
> 
> The Cabinet's decision to reduce speed limits on Spain's highways and cut the price of train tickets - in part because of soaring oil prices in the wake of the Libyan revolution - is just one of a battery of measures that Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba and Industry Minister Miguel Sebastián will hammer out with regional and municipal authorities in the coming days. The aim of the meetings will be to discuss ways in which the ingrained consumption habits of Spanish citizens can be altered.
> 
> ...




The fact that they are saying it's temporary & then saying there isn't a shortage indicates that this could be permanent & the original reasons used in the press conference were a pack of lies.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Perhaps not Merthyr, but increasing trade with North Africa and the distinct possibility of more car assembly plants in Morocco does make this Algeciras link very viable.
> 
> And renewable energy is approaching 20% here now - I reckon that's a useful contribution.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to Cardiff on Saturday so we'll have to compare notes when I get back!


Enjoy Cardiff, great city, go there often? I'm eating in Jamie Olivers place Friday I've been told, its upmarket McDonalds in reality but my children like it and I end up paying. Well worth a visit here Thai Edge Restuarants | Birmimgham, Cardiff, Bristol, Leeds if you like Thai food; very nice indeed.

Renewable energy in the UK is one very expensive joke, wasted millions on it under Tony Bland. People have been getting grants to put up solar panels but in reality in the UK they produce a piffling amount of power so the government are stopping them; about time (solar panels, Wales? not rocket science is it). Sad to say but we need nuclear plants building and stop piddling about with turbines that just don't hack it; while they please the tree hugging brigade I'm a realist.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

bob_bob said:


> Renewable energy in the UK is one very expensive joke, wasted millions on it under Tony Bland. People have been getting grants to put up solar panels but in reality in the UK they produce a piffling amount of power so the government are stopping them; about time (solar panels, Wales? not rocket science is it). Sad to say but we need nuclear plants building and stop piddling about with turbines that just don't hack it; while they please the tree hugging brigade I'm a realist.


YES!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Enjoy Cardiff, great city, go there often? I'm eating in Jamie Olivers place Friday I've been told, its upmarket McDonalds in reality but my children like it and I end up paying. Well worth a visit here Thai Edge Restuarants | Birmimgham, Cardiff, Bristol, Leeds if you like Thai food; very nice indeed.
> 
> Renewable energy in the UK is one very expensive joke, wasted millions on it under Tony Bland. People have been getting grants to put up solar panels but in reality in the UK they produce a piffling amount of power so the government are stopping them; about time (solar panels, Wales? not rocket science is it). Sad to say but we need nuclear plants building and stop piddling about with turbines that just don't hack it; while they please the tree hugging brigade I'm a realist.


& apparently under the EU agreement on CO2 reduction the UK have to close 7 coal fired power stations by 2015, I believe. I was reading earlier that the Dutch have just torn up their agreed reduction programme as not 'do able' & even the biggest supporter, & home of some of the biggest wind-turbine manufacturers in the world, Denmark, has realised the real lack of output of the systems & is casting about for alternatives. The fact that you have to have gas -fired power stations sitting there ticking over ready to supply electricity for when the wind dies, renders the whole idea uneconomic.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> & apparently under the EU agreement on CO2 reduction the UK have to close 7 coal fired power stations by 2015, I believe. I was reading earlier that the Dutch have just torn up their agreed reduction programme as not 'do able' & even the biggest supporter, & home of some of the biggest wind-turbine manufacturers in the world, Denmark, has realised the real lack of output of the systems & is casting about for alternatives. The fact that you have to have gas -fired power stations sitting there ticking over ready to supply electricity for when the wind dies, renders the whole idea uneconomic.



....... and thats without a deluge of electric cars flooding the market!!!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> ....... and thats without a deluge of electric cars flooding the market!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


:rofl: & a range of about 40 miles ! Ok for in town & that's it. A bit like the Sinclair C5 .

http://www.google.co.uk/url?source=...AQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHw-w6GSDGXTMQLMbnDzq7QX76vmA


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> :rofl: & a range of about 40 miles ! Ok for in town & that's it. A bit like the Sinclair C5 .
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/url?source=...AQQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNHw-w6GSDGXTMQLMbnDzq7QX76vmA


And they take roughly 9 hours to charge up, so where would people go when they want to "fill up" 

Electric vehicles maybe ok for inner city or local delivery vehicles, but as a viable alternative to cars we have now, they're a non starter (excuse the pun!)

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Enjoy Cardiff, great city, go there often? I'm eating in Jamie Olivers place Friday I've been told, its upmarket McDonalds in reality but my children like it and I end up paying. Well worth a visit here Thai Edge Restuarants | Birmimgham, Cardiff, Bristol, Leeds if you like Thai food; very nice indeed.
> 
> Renewable energy in the UK is one very expensive joke, wasted millions on it under Tony Bland. People have been getting grants to put up solar panels but in reality in the UK they produce a piffling amount of power so the government are stopping them; about time (solar panels, Wales? not rocket science is it). Sad to say but we need nuclear plants building and stop piddling about with turbines that just don't hack it; while they please the tree hugging brigade I'm a realist.


My husband´s father lives in Abergavenny but we are flying into Cardiff and spending a day there - I suspect I will be mainly shopping for shoes, as they don´t go up to my size in Spain! (Oops what a giveaway ...) 

I have never actually hugged a tree, but I do support renewable energy projects where feasible. The UK needs to exploit its tidal and wind energy, but sadly there are too many nimbies who don´t want to spoil the view. Solar panels in Wales ... I don´t think so! I also believe we waste far too much through overheating and poor insulation, shops and offices leaving lights on all night, etc etc. I´m glad Spain is taking the initiative on this.

I remember going to the Centre for Alternative Technology in Machynlleth (sp?) about 30 years ago and there was no sun and no wind that day so nothing was working. Bit of a damp squib really. But I remember being very impressed with the toilets!


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

jojo said:


> And they take roughly 9 hours to charge up, so where would people go when they want to "fill up"
> 
> Electric vehicles maybe ok for inner city or local delivery vehicles, but as a viable alternative to cars we have now, they're a non starter (excuse the pun!)
> 
> Jo xxx


I think it is too early to dismiss this technology which after all is in its infancy. This article from the Economist magazine gives an interesting overview of the prospects for electric cars: Electric cars: A sparky new motor | The Economist
The findings of the large scale trial run by BMW using 600 electrically powered BMW minis on lease to drivers in several different countries are intriguing.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

ivorra said:


> I think it is too early to dismiss this technology which after all is in its infancy. This article from the Economist magazine gives an interesting overview of the prospects for electric cars: Electric cars: A sparky new motor | The Economist
> The findings of the large scale trial run by BMW using 600 electrically powered BMW minis on lease to drivers in several different countries are intriguing.


But the problem is , where is the electricity to re-charge going to come from ? There's barely enough to power the UK at the moment & as the governments have spent the last 20 years undecided over what the plan for the future is , trying to appease the people who don't want , nuclear, wind turbines, wave-power, etc; etc; whilst offering no logical alternatives , they are now reliant on the French for electricity.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

*Light Pollution*

Not acording to these authors alcalaina. Light Pollution in Spain: A European Perspective

Alejandro Sánchez de Miguel and Jaime Zamorano 

The Multidisciplinary Scientific Information Support System (SIMAC) for Deception Island

Spain appears in light pollution maps as a country less polluted than their neighbours in the European Union. This seems to be an illusion due to its low population density. The data indicate that Spain is one of the most contaminated countries. To reach these conclusions we compare the Spanish case to those of other European countries.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> And they take roughly 9 hours to charge up, so where would people go when they want to "fill up"
> 
> Electric vehicles maybe ok for inner city or local delivery vehicles, but as a viable alternative to cars we have now, they're a non starter (excuse the pun!)
> 
> Jo xxx


In one of the Carrefour's near us there is a row of parking places with plugs for these cars. It's a Carrefour _planet_ (!!) BTW is Carrefour the new Tescos? It seems to be everywhere, even Colombia!

Talking about taking freight on the railroad system and not using the roads...
I haven't read all through the thread, and I don't know if anything's been mentioned, but until our attitude to food changes things are going to get worse not better.
What I mean is we all know that our food travells thousands of miles to get to us. Even if it's "local" it's likely to travel 100's of miles by the time it's been cleaned, packaged, taken to the warehouse for distribution and ends up on the super shelf. Apparently it's cheaper to do it by road and also the rail system isn't flexible enough and doesn't go right up to the supermarkets of course like a road does.
We expect food at all times of the day, and in all seasons, and at the right price so this invoves carting it all round the world. The stuff that we see on display in the fresh food section might be potatoes from Turkey that were pulled out of the ground 3 months ago and we all know about the bananas that are picked while they are green and kept in gas to make them ripen.

Info can be found in_ Not On The Label _by Felicity Lawrence


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Or vegetables ,picked in the UK then shipped to Kenya to be processed & packed into mixed veg & mixed salad packs then flown back !!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

playamonte said:


> So on balance the government made a good call IMO and reinforced this with a reduction in rail prices.


Yes, and no.
Probably smth needs to be done about fuel consumption one way or another either because of expected oil supply problems or because of the environment. Don't forget Madrid was on red alert, or whatever it is for pollution, in Feb and people were advised not to go out, not use the car etc.
But will people reduce their speed? probably not, and the government know that and are probably expecting to rake in a considerable amount in fines. So I htink the government expectations are monetary not talking about fuel.
To save fuel you need a huge campaign aimed at the private consumer (that's where the main consumption is in Spain apparently. Of course. Where is the manufacturing in Spain? That's one of the reasons for the unemployment situation. Spain doesn't make much of anything). It's like I said before, a campaign to make people keep more of an eye on their tyres would be much cheaper and probably much more cheaper than all the organization needed around the changing of the speed limit.
Also lowering the rail prices by 5% is nothing and isn't going to change anything. As I said in a previous post, 5% of 1€ or 2€ isn't going to make someone leave their car behind and take the train, is it? A 50% reduction might. A national car share scheme regulated by local government, or multinationals and the governments for example might make a difference.


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> But the problem is , where is the electricity to re-charge going to come from ? There's barely enough to power the UK at the moment & as the governments have spent the last 20 years undecided over what the plan for the future is , trying to appease the people who don't want , nuclear, wind turbines, wave-power, etc; etc; whilst offering no logical alternatives , they are now reliant on the French for electricity.


'Powering the UK' is not a simple supply vs demand question. Pricing comes in to the equation and it could be said that electricity is too cheap at present in relation to the real cost, resource and environmental, of fossil fuel. Following Mrs Thatcher's privatisation of the energy industires in the UK, government policy has been to let the market decide when and what type of generating plant will be built while trying to give renewable sources a start by subsidising them from the general electricity tariff. Nuclear generation proved not to be commercially viable as Cecil Parkinson, Mrs Thatcher's Secretary of State, found when no private investor would touch it and the electricity privatisation programme was almost scuppered. Even with the tax payer underwriting the decommisioning and radioactive waste disposal costs and the easing of the planning rules, no new nuclear projects seem likely to start in the forseeable future.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In one of the Carrefour's near us there is a row of parking places with plugs for these cars. It's a Carrefour _planet_ (!!) BTW is Carrefour the new Tescos? It seems to be everywhere, even Colombia!
> 
> Talking about taking freight on the railroad system and not using the roads...
> I haven't read all through the thread, and I don't know if anything's been mentioned, but until our attitude to food changes things are going to get worse not better.
> ...


:clap2: Absolutely! I always try and buy food that was grown locally and in season. Though that´s much easier where I live because the old guys sell the produce from their huertos off the back of a truck, and we have a good local market and dairy. I would hate to have to buy everything from supermarkets.

Tescos are trying to buy up Carrefour´s stores in Asia, incidentally. For years they have had an agreement to keep off each other´s territory, hence no Tesco in Spain and no Carrefour in Britain.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

I love the idea of wind turbines, tidal generators etc but they don't work.

Thinking back to when I was a lad, say fifty years ago and look at the power our house used.

1 TV
1 Wireless (thats a radio to you youngsters)
1 Hoover
1 Fridge
About 6 light bulbs.

Let assume they were all working at once, you would have a power consumption of perhaps 1Kw.

Compare that to now
fridge
freezer x2
6 TV's
4 PC's
Router
Hoover
30+ lights
Sound system x 3
DVD player x 6
PVR boxes x6
Back up electric water heater
Back up electric room heaters
Water pumps
Washing machine
Laptops x 2
Tumble dryer
Lots of things on charge
etc etc, the list goes on and while all not in use at the same time I use a heck of a lot more than 1Kw an hour. The question is are we prepared to cut back? The answer is yes, the reality is not really. Cut through all the reams of BS talked about nuclear power and you discover that its safe, clean and fills our needs. Governments need to be honest and tell folk the reality, we need nuclear power until and IF viable alternatives become a real option.

A good friend of mine retired in 2008, bought a beautifull cottage in the Forrest of Dean and as he is a believer in the end of the world (man made end not biblical) he decided to go 'off grid' as he was rebuilding the cottage. So, Aga stove, wood burner heaters, solar panels, two wind turbines, under floor heating from deep buried heat exchangers and it cost him around £30k. The solar panels and turbines charge up deep cycle batteries and give enough power to run an LED lighting system, a PC/TV and the fridge freezer... for a while. In winter he needs to run a generator too to boost the charge. I love his home, its picture perfect and appeals to the 'gadget head' side of me but its really a folly.

I spent £50 on a Power Monkey solar charger to take camping, on a good day it keeps my phone working


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> Cut through all the reams of BS talked about nuclear power and you discover that its safe, clean and fills our needs. Governments need to be honest and tell folk the reality, we need nuclear power until and IF viable alternatives become a real option.
> 
> So you are happy for the taxpayer to subsidise nuclear generation in the absence of any prvate investor who will put up the vast amounts of capital needed to construct nuclear plant with no prospect of any return for many years? (oh - and the taxpayer should underwrite the decommisioning and waste disposal costs and risks which also seem to be anathema to private investors?)


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

ivorra said:


> bob_bob said:
> 
> 
> > Cut through all the reams of BS talked about nuclear power and you discover that its safe, clean and fills our needs. Governments need to be honest and tell folk the reality, we need nuclear power until and IF viable alternatives become a real option.
> ...


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> ivorra said:
> 
> 
> > More than happy. You want to flick a switch and have light don't you? How do you suggest we can continue doing this?
> ...


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

So what do you suggest we do to fill the void in power generation that is all but with us? Perhaps you advocate the state telling us how many 'goodies' we can have at home to prevent the waste you talked of?

Your very obviously anti state intervention but the private sector relies on a fast return on investment and nothing wrong in that, but perhaps not the best starting platform when discussing what is really a core need in society...flicking that switch to turn on a light.

I really don't care who funds the nuclear programme, or coal fired programme but one thing for sure is that it needs kick starting now and if that start is state funded then so be it. If we don't make a start things will be a tad glum in the not too distant future.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nuclear investment is already well under way right across Europe, with governments picking up the tab for the infrastructure and waste so that private companies will invest and cream off the eventual profits. This is nothing new. 

But you can't do it overnight; it's a 20 year programme or even longer. Hundreds of ageing coal-fired power stations need replacing, especially in Eastern Europe. Hundreds more first and second generation nuclear power stations have to be decommissioned and replaced, and the waste stored somewhere because we still don't know what to do with it.

In the meantime, we have to learn not to squander what we have! 

BTW Bob-Bob, have you really got six TVs?


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

TV's?
Front room
Back room
Computer room
Kitchen
Master Bedroom
Son's bedroom
Daughters (when here) bedroom
Grandsons bedroom
Guest bedroom

SUGAR nine not six 6 are flat screen. I was very tempted to get a small 19" for the toilet so I can watch BBC News but you've shamed me now and I'll have to stick to Radio 4 and a copy of The Guardian  .


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

bob_bob said:


> TV's?
> Front room
> Back room
> Computer room
> ...


My husband sells tvs in the UK and we've got them everywhere too - infact in our UK house we have one in our bathroom (he was practising installing it for a customer and left it there )

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

:shocked: I'm speechless!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hey mods - aren't you rather letting this get off topic??? You chew we mere mortals up for doing that!
:focus::focus::focus::focus::focus:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

What's all this talk about TVs got to do with reducing speed limits? or are we now discussing fast transvestites? :focus:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Hey mods - aren't you rather letting this get off topic??? You chew we mere mortals up for doing that!
> :focus::focus::focus::focus::focus:


not me

shall I


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> So what do you suggest we do to fill the void in power generation that is all but with us? Perhaps you advocate the state telling us how many 'goodies' we can have at home to prevent the waste you talked of?
> 
> Your very obviously anti state intervention but the private sector relies on a fast return on investment and nothing wrong in that, but perhaps not the best starting platform when discussing what is really a core need in society...flicking that switch to turn on a light.
> 
> I really don't care who funds the nuclear programme, or coal fired programme but one thing for sure is that it needs kick starting now and if that start is state funded then so be it. If we don't make a start things will be a tad glum in the not too distant future.


No, I do not advocate state control of goodies or even of how many televisions you have. The prospect of shortage of electricity does not alarm me - at least for us in Spain or UK - so long as there is a market mechanism for adjusting demand to supply. This will certainly mean higher prices but also encouragement to greater efficiency. (Which has been happening for many years in the West. The 'energy intensity' of our industries has been falling for decades, meaning that a unit of output can be created for far less energy input now than it could have been before). In the UK the problem is how to meet an ever growing peak demand which is not really the same as a shortage of 'energy'. It is possible that in the long term even the much reviled (on this forum anyway) electric car might help because if such vehicles are in widespread use they provide a means of storing electrical energy. The cars are normally charged overnight and use electricity provided by efficient base load generators. With the help of modern metering and control technology it is quite possible for the batteries to feed back in to the network when needed (assuming the car is not in use at that moment, obviously) to help meet peak demand. Tariffs could be devised which would be advantageous to the car owners and would allow the electricity generating companies to save on a part of their expensive peak demand plant.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Do you know how close the UK is to power failure some winter days due to demand? What the future holds?
Britain facing blackouts for first time since 1970s - Telegraph an old link but you get the drift. Electric cars are a cute idea but not a solution let down by existing battery technology, how you going to charge them? We don't all have a garage, we can't go running a cable from the house across the pavement to the car and it would cost billions to dig up all the roads and install charging points; best left for chugging round some Costa golf course.

Sooner the government funds nuclear power the better IMHO.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> What's all this talk about TVs got to do with reducing speed limits? or are we now discussing fast transvestites? :focus:


I'm up for that mate


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> What's all this talk about TVs got to do with reducing speed limits? or are we now discussing fast transvestites? :focus:


Sorry Baldi, you know what we're like. I'll try and seperate the posts and start another thread 

There a new thread all of its own - I'll bet no one posts on it now lol!!!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The regionof Extramadura in Spain has long been known as the least light-polluting area in Western Europe. Obviously due to its sparse population.When seen from space it appears uninhabited.
At present the Uk totters on the brink of power outages. The last winter they only coped using supply from France. Personally I don't think any country should be reliant on supplies of electricity from other countries. I'd liked to have seen them harvesting wave-power years ago, it made sense . They talked about the Severn for 20 years, spent millions on studies & have now shelved it ! 
The only sensible answer is nuclar power but, as Alcalaina points out , not only is it a long term venture there is also the problem with construction of these plants due to the run-down of the industry when everyone turned away from building nuclear power plants. 

There used to be the capacity to construct 20 new nuclear plants each year, now it's 4. There are only 5 companies in the world that have the capacity to forge the huge pieces needed for nuclear construction; Japan Steel works, China first Heavy industries, China Erzhog, OMZ Izhora ( Russia ) & Sheffield Forgemasters. Only one of these , JapanSteelworks, has the capacity to forge the largest components. Noticeable of the above 5 is that their is no U.S. companies. New capacity is being built by JSW and JCFC in Japan, Shanghai Electric Group (SEC) and subsidiaries in China, and in South Korea (Doosan), France (Le Creusot), Czech Rep (Pilsen) and Russia (OMZ Izhora and ZiO-Podolsk). 

New capacity is planned in UK (Sheffield Forgemasters) and India (Larsen & Toubro, Bharat Heavy Electricals, Bharat Forge Ltd). In China the Harbin Boiler Co. and SEC subsidiary SENPE are increasing capacity. Westinghouse , who used to be a world leader in nuclear technology, sources now from the above as there is nothing in North America that currently approaches these enterprises. The planned capacity increase for the UK company , Sheffield Forgemasters ,has been put on hold after the government last year decided , after agreeing originally, not to guarantee the loan required to enable them to install a 20,000+ tonne press capable of producing the largest parts required for Nuclearplants & which would have made them one of only two in the world. Funny how they can tell the banks they aren'tlending enough while pulling the plug themselves & at the same time lending money to the Indian owners , Tata, of Land Rover .
So even if they decided to build a new one it would be many years before a bulb was lit by it. 
I saw at the week end that the opposition has already started to a proposed Sizewell C next to the 2 existing ones.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok Jo I will 

Nuclear ?
Costs a fortune to build, costs any even bigger fortune to decommission, costs an astronomical fortune to store the waste for...................ever ! (not to mention how dangerous it is)


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

playamonte said:


> Ok Jo I will
> 
> Nuclear ?
> Costs a fortune to build, costs any even bigger fortune to decommission, costs an astronomical fortune to store the waste for...................ever ! (not to mention how dangerous it is)


However there's not a viable alternative.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

playamonte said:


> Ok Jo I will
> 
> Nuclear ?
> Costs a fortune to build, costs any even bigger fortune to decommission, costs an astronomical fortune to store the waste for...................ever ! (not to mention how dangerous it is)


No, we´d better not mention that ... nor the fact that we´d then be dependent on other countries like Khazakstan and Russia for all that uranium!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Do you know how close the UK is to power failure some winter days due to demand? What the future holds?


Spain does have black out problems now in the summers. The overload is due to fans, air conditioning and heat. I seem to remember parts of Madrid, Seville and Barcelona in recent years all being left without power for days on end


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

playamonte said:


> Ok Jo I will
> 
> Nuclear ?
> Costs a fortune to build, costs any even bigger fortune to decommission, costs an astronomical fortune to store the waste for...................ever ! (not to mention how dangerous it is)


How dangerous is it? Any sources?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> How dangerous is it? Any sources?


Chernobyl


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Spain does have black out problems now in the summers. The overload is due to fans, air conditioning and heat. I seem to remember parts of Madrid, Seville and Barcelona in recent years all being left without power for days on end


and in the winter here, too - thankfully only short powercuts - but frequent


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> However there's not a viable alternative.


Yes there is Shale gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
Combined with new draconian laws that force any new building to meet strict insulation/consumption laws like they have Sweden/Denmark etc.
Tax payers (its normal to say government) subsidies to assist the lower paid to replace/upgrade appliances, insulate etc.
All party agreement written in stone to have a cohesive lower consumption plan that is designed to make real reductions & push hard for so called renewable sources.

So yes IMO there could well be some considerable reductions, but I doubt that things will pan out like that.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, and no.
> Probably smth needs to be done about fuel consumption one way or another either because of expected oil supply problems or because of the environment. Don't forget Madrid was on red alert, or whatever it is for pollution, in Feb and people were advised not to go out, not use the car etc.
> But will people reduce their speed? probably not, and the government know that and are probably expecting to rake in a considerable amount in fines. So I htink the government expectations are monetary not talking about fuel.
> To save fuel you need a huge campaign aimed at the private consumer (that's where the main consumption is in Spain apparently. Of course. Where is the manufacturing in Spain? That's one of the reasons for the unemployment situation. Spain doesn't make much of anything). It's like I said before, a campaign to make people keep more of an eye on their tyres would be much cheaper and probably much more cheaper than all the organization needed around the changing of the speed limit.
> Also lowering the rail prices by 5% is nothing and isn't going to change anything. As I said in a previous post, 5% of 1€ or 2€ isn't going to make someone leave their car behind and take the train, is it? A 50% reduction might. A national car share scheme regulated by local government, or multinationals and the governments for example might make a difference.


Ah you conveniently left out what I wrote about about fuel saving measures (when you quoted/cut) that you then go onto write about above.
Namely that for an *immediate* fuel saving you need to reduce speed & there will be a reduction in consumption if you stay at 110 instead of 120 (fact)
Yes of course there are a good many other methods that can also be used, but as I said these will take a good deal longer to educate the motorists who are unaware (if ever)
So although a 5% cut in rail fares is not a lot when you would expect prices to be rising (trains run on fuel) it shows to me at least some commitment to take with one hand, but give something back with the other which is a rare thing from government.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In one of the Carrefour's near us there is a row of parking places with plugs for these cars. It's a Carrefour _planet_ (!!) BTW is Carrefour the new Tescos? It seems to be everywhere, even Colombia!
> 
> Talking about taking freight on the railroad system and not using the roads...
> I haven't read all through the thread, and I don't know if anything's been mentioned, but until our attitude to food changes things are going to get worse not better.
> ...


Bananas naturually produce ethylene gas as the ripen (we all know the trick of putting a ripe banana in a bag with other fruit to speed up the ripening process), so this process of adding the gas to the storage room is merely aiding what happens naturally, without adding anything that doesn't happen anyway.

So,is this a bad thing? If so, why? This method has been in use for decades (25 years ago I worked in Glasgow Fruit Market for a banana importer and the process was used there along with temp/humidity controls to ensure the produce going out the door was fresh and edible)


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Chernobyl


using that example(granted it was a big f-up) would you ban oil drilling after the "deepwater horizon" or "piper alpha" accidents?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

playamonte said:


> Yes there is Shale gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Combined with new draconian laws that force any new building to meet strict insulation/consumption laws like they have Sweden/Denmark etc.
> Tax payers (its normal to say government) subsidies to assist the lower paid to replace/upgrade appliances, insulate etc.
> All party agreement written in stone to have a cohesive lower consumption plan that is designed to make real reductions & push hard for so called renewable sources.
> ...


Interesting link thanks, I'll do some reading. I note that like all carbon fuels it is a greenhouse gas producer.

As to energy saving measures, anything we do in the western world will be offset by increased output in China, India and Brazil.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Chernobyl was a one off, lots of mistakes made that have led to lessons learnt. I would guess that coal mining has killed many more folk than nuclear power has, I was nursing ex-miners with lungs full of dust who died an awful and slow death.

Cows produce methane, I guess I could strap one to the roof of my disco and stick a pipe up its ass and use the gas to drive the vehicle but don't see that as practical really.

One thing we should look at is an investment in better public transport. My favourite form of transport is the humble train, I love rail travel but certainly in the UK tickets cost an arm and a leg, its often cheaper to fly to Spain than travel to London by train for me


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

playamonte said:


> Ah you conveniently left out what I wrote about about fuel saving measures (when you quoted/cut) that you then go onto write about above.
> Namely that for an *immediate* fuel saving you need to reduce speed & there will be a reduction in consumption if you stay at 110 instead of 120 (fact)
> Yes of course there are a good many other methods that can also be used, but as I said these will take a good deal longer to educate the motorists who are unaware (if ever)
> So although a 5% cut in rail fares is not a lot when you would expect prices to be rising (trains run on fuel) it shows to me at least some commitment to take with one hand, but give something back with the other which is a rare thing from government.


One at a time gentlemen, please!
*conveniently left out* - Playamonte, sorry if you feel your words were misrepresented by a cut and paste. I was merely trying to not requote everything when I only wanted to focus on the last sentence. If it was not clear from my post, I was actually agreeing with you to a certain point. I know that if you reduce speed from 120 to 110 fuel will be saved. There is no need to write (fact) after it!! The only thing is that you think that's a good place to start,and that fuel consumptionm reduction will take place, and I don't. I think that it would be much easier, and _*cheaper*_ to introduce other methods like awareness of tyre pressure, ways of reducing heating costs in homes, turn off the stand by button etc etc. 
I also think, as I have said (twice) before that a 5% reduction in rail costs does not show any commitment at all on the part of the government. The fare for me to go to Madrid on the train is 1.25€ approx. Will a 5% reduction on this fare persuade the people where I live to take the train???? Not a chance, no way and no!
But tht's just my opinion after all

Dunmovin


> using that example(granted it was a big f-up) would you ban oil drilling after the "deepwater horizon" or "piper alpha" accidents?


Probably!
Add the Prestige to that one.

I'll get back to you on the bananas, but just one thing. Just 'cos smth's been used for a long time doesn't make it a good idea (asbestos roofs, DDT...)


Jimenato


> there's no viable alternative


I refuse to believe that. There are lots of alternatives that could be just as viable as oil. Just look at all the infrastructure oil needs, and there it is - up and working! However, the political map as we know it would be destroyed and that's what's holding back alternative energies - political interests, not viability


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

playamonte said:


> Ah you conveniently left out what I wrote about about fuel saving measures (when you quoted/cut) that you then go onto write about above.
> Namely that for an *immediate* fuel saving you need to reduce speed & there will be a reduction in consumption if you stay at 110 instead of 120 (fact)
> Yes of course there are a good many other methods that can also be used, but as I said these will take a good deal longer to educate the motorists who are unaware (if ever)
> So although a 5% cut in rail fares is not a lot when you would expect prices to be rising (trains run on fuel) it shows to me at least some commitment to take with one hand, but give something back with the other which is a rare thing from government.


Unfortunately I can't see it reducing fuel consumption much at all. Most spaniards around here very rarely use 4th,5th,6th,7th gears at all even on the autovia ! Yes , the ones who are up an down the autovias daily might but the rest won't. I've just come back from a trip with a neighbour in a 6 speed Alfa . Even seeing 140 on the autovia we never got into 6th . His sisters the same , 5 speed car never seen her use 4th or 5th. Then again she never uses the wipers even when it's raining ! My daughter asked one day in the rain, " Do they work ? " 
As an Engineer & car Aficionado nothing makes my teeth grate more than a vehicle being driven at too high a speed for the gear which itis in. & they pass my house daily , every other vehicle is doing it. 
In town here when it comes down to 30kph they'll all remain in 2nd gear . My previous vehicle, which had 5 speeds wouldn't go along in 5th gear at 50kph without trying to shake the whole vehicle to pieces & in 4th you couldn't go along at 30kph. I know I used to try it !


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> How dangerous is it? Any sources?


Depends on 
1. who is in the control room
2. whether short cuts are being, or likely to be, taken to cut costs


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dunmovin said:


> Bananas naturually produce ethylene gas as the ripen (we all know the trick of putting a ripe banana in a bag with other fruit to speed up the ripening process), so this process of adding the gas to the storage room is merely aiding what happens naturally, without adding anything that doesn't happen anyway.
> 
> So,is this a bad thing? If so, why? This method has been in use for decades (25 years ago I worked in Glasgow Fruit Market for a banana importer and the process was used there along with temp/humidity controls to ensure the produce going out the door was fresh and edible)


I think bananas are a bit of a special case as it doesn't affect the flavour. (But I did visit a banana plantation in Costa Rica where they tied blue sacks over the bananas while they were still on the tree, filled with some sort of chemical (organophosphates?) which is banned in the US and Europe. It stopped them ripening on the voyage to Europe - and shortened the life expectancy of the workers by 10 years.)

However with other food products the taste and texture are definitely affected by measures to control ripening. Fruit is rock-hard one day and mushy the next. Next time you by a bag of washed salad leaves stick your nose in when you open the bag - it smells like a swimming pool!


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Depends on
> 1. who is in the control room
> 2. whether short cuts are being, or likely to be, taken to cut costs


Naa, way too many failsafe proceedures in place now.

Anyway, I'm charging my Android phone from my power monkey charger in the conservatory so I've done my bit for the green movement today.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> Bananas naturually produce ethylene gas as the ripen (we all know the trick of putting a ripe banana in a bag with other fruit to speed up the ripening process), so this process of adding the gas to the storage room is merely aiding what happens naturally, without adding anything that doesn't happen anyway.
> 
> So,is this a bad thing? If so, why? This method has been in use for decades (25 years ago I worked in Glasgow Fruit Market for a banana importer and the process was used there along with_* temp/humidity controls to ensure the produce going out the door was fresh and edible*_)


The point I was trying to make about bananas was that if food wasn't carted all around the world before we eat it then it wouldn't need to be artificially ripened or kept cold to avoid going rotten etc etc. 
The food you saw going out the door in Glasgow was absolutely not fresh if it had been subjected to temperature controls and chemical treatments. Edible maybe; fresh, with normal vitamin and mineral counts, without manmade pesticides - probably not.

What has happened to the English apple?? Can hardly find one in a supermarket. They are all from Africa and other parts of Europe with all the fuel consumption that that entails. The English apple has been killed off by imports. Cheap, cheaper and the cheapest is the only thing that seems to matter in the supermarket trolly.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The point I was trying to make about bananas was that if food wasn't carted all around the world before we eat it then it wouldn't need to be artificially ripened or kept cold to avoid going rotten etc etc.
> The food you saw going out the door in Glasgow was absolutely not fresh if it had been subjected to temperature controls and chemical treatments. Edible maybe; fresh, with normal vitamin and mineral counts, without manmade pesticides - probably not.
> 
> What has happened to the English apple?? Can hardly find one in a supermarket. They are all from Africa and other parts of Europe with all the fuel consumption that that entails. The English apple has been killed off by imports. Cheap, cheaper and the cheapest is the only thing that seems to matter in the supermarket trolly.


"not fresh"? by who's standards? Temperature controls were maitained to have the fruit ripen at the correct rate. If you have ever seen a banana that was ripened at lower temperatures..... you would know the colour looks wrong. The process where 17% of the fruit turns to sugar is halted and it would taste bitter. SO...adding a little extra gas (which the fruit produces naturally) is subjecting them to "chemicals"?

Next you'll be saying that adding the "chemical" C12H22O11 to tea or coffee is wrong and should be banned........






if that happens you'll have got sugar banned:ranger:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> "not fresh"? by who's standards? Temperature controls were maitained to have the fruit ripen at the correct rate. If you have ever seen a banana that was ripened at lower temperatures..... you would know the colour looks wrong. The process where 17% of the fruit turns to sugar is halted and it would taste bitter. SO...adding a little extra gas (which the fruit produces naturally) is subjecting them to "chemicals"?
> 
> Next you'll be saying that adding the "chemical" C12H22O11 to tea or coffee is wrong and should be banned........
> 
> ...


By whose standards?? Mine of course!

Seriously, if smth's been picked a week, 2 weeks, 3 _*months*_ ago for some vegetables and has been stored in artificial ways, it's not fresh. I don't know what the dictionary definition of fresh is (nor do I need to), but many people tend to think when they see fresh fruit in a supermarket that it's really that - recently picked, and it isn't. And that last part isn't my opinion, it's what really happens.

Did you really mean this?


> Temperature controls were maitained to have the fruit ripen at the correct rate


The correct temperature, for the correct ripening rate is, surprise! On the tree!!

PS As you might have guessed I don't take sugar .


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> "not fresh"? by who's standards? Temperature controls were maitained to have the fruit ripen at the correct rate. If you have ever seen a banana that was ripened at lower temperatures..... you would know the colour looks wrong. The process where 17% of the fruit turns to sugar is halted and it would taste bitter. SO...adding a little extra gas (which the fruit produces naturally) is subjecting them to "chemicals"?
> 
> Next you'll be saying that adding the "chemical" C12H22O11 to tea or coffee is wrong and should be banned........
> 
> ...



well IMO in that case BAN IT!!!


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> By whose standards?? Mine of course!
> 
> Seriously, if smth's been picked a week, 2 weeks, 3 _*months*_ ago for some vegetables and has been stored in artificial ways, it's not fresh. I don't know what the dictionary definition of fresh is (nor do I need to), *but many people tend to think when they see fresh fruit in a supermarket that it's really that *- recently picked, and it isn't. And that last part isn't my opinion, it's what really happens.
> 
> ...


Do you actually believe the public are THAT stupid? So stupid that they believe that fruit picked on the other side of the world, arrives in their local supermarket within hours of it being picked?

Temperature control: do you own a fridge or a freezer? Do you cool food to stop it going rancid?
Power generation: what do you think powers your fridge or freezer? do you cook with gas or electric? Where does the gas or electric come from? Oil/coal fired power stations, nuclear power plants?liquid petroleum gas? Even if you used a wood burner for cooking, you are polluting the air.

Rant and rave about "alternative power" all you want, but until someone comes up with a viable alternative to what is there, we're stuck with it. Can you provide an alternative,other than just say "It's wrong and shouldn't be allowed"?

Show us the way...... ban oil/nuclear/hydro/wind turbines and do it in way that will not cause misery to millions of people....ban chemical use ( Na CL ... salt it is chemical.... want to ban it? or what about that evil stuff CH3COOH.. vinegar{ diluted acetic acid}
) 

Now ask yourself.... how many plastic products do you rely on.... how many plastic/oil products are in the computer you use?

ever use an anti dandruff shampoo or know someone who does..... the active part is selenium.. a heavy metal.. Se o2...another chemical


lets go back to sugar.....12 parts carbon 22 parts hydrogen 11 parts oxygen.... carbon and water...all natural..still want the chemical banned?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> Do you actually believe the public are THAT stupid? So stupid that they believe that fruit picked on the other side of the world, arrives in their local supermarket within hours of it being picked?
> 
> Temperature control: do you own a fridge or a freezer? Do you cool food to stop it going rancid?
> Power generation: what do you think powers your fridge or freezer? do you cook with gas or electric? Where does the gas or electric come from? Oil/coal fired power stations, nuclear power plants?liquid petroleum gas? Even if you used a wood burner for cooking, you are polluting the air.
> ...


not completely...


just from coffee


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> not completely...
> 
> 
> just from coffee


agreed it ruins an otherwise refreshing drink


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

dunmovin said:


> agreed it ruins an otherwise refreshing drink


Depends on your water - ours is so hard that it is useless for coffee which requires soft water but it is good for tea!

So yes ban the limescale - another chemical!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> Do you actually believe the public are THAT stupid? So stupid that they believe that fruit picked on the other side of the world, arrives in their local supermarket within hours of it being picked?
> 
> Temperature control: do you own a fridge or a freezer? Do you cool food to stop it going rancid?
> Power generation: what do you think powers your fridge or freezer? do you cook with gas or electric? Where does the gas or electric come from? Oil/coal fired power stations, nuclear power plants?liquid petroleum gas? Even if you used a wood burner for cooking, you are polluting the air.
> ...


No Dunmovin, I don't think the public are stupid, but I often think that you think I am!

I think the public is often unaware of what has happened to the stuff that they buy and indeed where it has come from. For example, part of the traditional Spanish diet is lentils, but the lentils in the well known brands like El Hostal and Luengo, or supermarket own brands, are not from Spain. If you look carefully at the packet it says _envasado en España o Burgos _or something like that, but the _origen_ of the product is Kenya or the USA and I don't think many consumers know that. They think that the product is a product that's been going for donkeys years and it's based in Castilla and it's a Spanish product. That doesn't make the consumer stupid, but unaware.
Now if they knew would it make any difference? Well probably to a lot of people, as I said before, price and at-first-glance-quality is what counts, but above all price. At-first-glance-quality is the kind of thing many shoppers think is top quality ie they see a banana from the Canary Islands and it's small with brown spots. They think the big yellow bananas from Del Monte look nicer and in their eyes are better quality when in reality they aren't. The Canary Island bananas are good quality and have travelled a good few thousand miles less to the supermarket..
However, some shoppers do care about not only the quality of their food, but also the background of their food. Where has it come from, what's been done to it, who's handled it, in what conditions ...? But to do that you need information. 

To address your other points



> Temperature control: do you own a fridge or a freezer? Do you cool food to stop it going rancid?
> Power generation: what do you think powers your fridge or freezer? do you cook with gas or electric? Where does the gas or electric come from? Oil/coal fired power stations, nuclear power plants?liquid petroleum gas? Even if you used a wood burner for cooking, you are polluting the air.


Of course I own a fridge, and I have no intention of giving it up! I believe in looking for the best alternatives that we have thinking about the environment and each other. 
That to me means not buying strawberries and cherries in December, that have been imported from another country and transported in refridgerated containers for many miles, IMO needlessly. Me having a fridge or cooking by gas has nothing to do with this.
As for nuclear power, no I don't like it. It's crazy to keep radioactive material for our children to dispose of and to transport from country to country for one thing, but I do realise that society as it is today needs it. But why? IMO because other avenues haven't been explored because it's not in the interests of world powers of all types.



> Rant and rave about "alternative power" all you want, but until someone comes up with a viable alternative to what is there, we're stuck with it. Can you provide an alternative,other than just say "It's wrong and shouldn't be allowed"?


I don't think I have ranted and raved about anything. I can leave that to others it seems  I have absolutely no problem in saying I cannot provide a viable alternative, but that doesn't stop me saying I don't believe there is one. I think there are other interests behind the whole fuel/ oil/ biomass/ solar energy issue, political and economic interests. I rely on it, as I do plastic in computers etc because I have to, because I am not provided with any alternative, but if I have a choice (buying ham in plastic pack or cut by the butcher on to greasproof paper for example) I'll take the non plastic route.


> ever use an anti dandruff shampoo or know someone who does..... the active part is selenium.. a heavy metal.. Se o2...another chemical


Yes, I know about dandruff shampoo. I had a friend at Uni who swore he was going to sue H&S.


l


> ets go back to sugar.....12 parts carbon 22 parts hydrogen 11 parts oxygen.... carbon and water...all natural..still want the chemical banned?


You'll find that I said nothing about banning sugar. All I said was that I don't take sugar in tea or coffee - I'm sweet enough


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

You, me, your children, their children will have nothing to do with nuclear waste disposal:confused2:

British apples have largely gone, the orchards now covered in poly tunnels producing strawberries and kiwi fruit etc.

We have to ship in food, this island is to small to produce all our food unless you want to limit your diet to spuds, carrots and turnips, can you imagine if all the farmers went down the 'organic' route of non intensive farming? The phrase 'poo creek minus a paddle' springs to mind.

I'm of an age where I can remember seasonal veg and fruit, Tangerines only at xmas, the good old days..... good old days my ****. I don't want to step back in time, like most folks if they are honest, I want the freedom to walk into Tesco and buy whatever I want. We've imported food for centuries, bringing it home using whatever means needed and at our disposal to keep it fresh for use, drying, salting, brining, canning etc and later refridgeration of course. The principle of preserving the shelf life of food today is the same as it was three or four hundred years ago, we just do it better these days.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> You, me, your children, their children will have nothing to do with nuclear waste disposal:confused2:
> 
> British apples have largely gone, the orchards now covered in poly tunnels producing strawberries and kiwi fruit etc.
> 
> ...


 Live with it, keep it, maintain security. I think that's having something to do with it.

Tesco's obviously has it's place as it has so many customers. Personally I don't like their expansion policy, not to mention pricing and food sourcing policies. You say you don't want to step back, but I don't think not buying in Tesco's is a step back. For me this kind of shopping is not stepping forward.

Part of the result of the way people shop is that, as you yourself say, there are no orchards in Britain now. Does that mean there is no demand for apples in the UK now?. No, it just means that they are imported from other countries :confused2: And where the apples were we've got kiwis,that need plastic sheeting to be able to be grown in the British climate :confused2:
To me it doesn't make sense.

But the thread is called alternative power, and maybe I've gone off topic enough for now.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Live with it, keep it, maintain security. I think that's having something to do with it.
> 
> Tesco's obviously has it's place as it has so many customers. Personally I don't like their expansion policy, not to mention pricing and food sourcing policies. You say you don't want to step back, but I don't think not buying in Tesco's is a step back. For me this kind of shopping is not stepping forward.
> 
> ...


It isn't off-topic though, because of all the energy needed to grow and transport fruit and vegetables that are grown in the wrong place at the wrong time, just so the pampered consumer can eat strawberries in January or tangerines in August.

I stopped shopping in Tescos in 1997 after I could not find a single English apple in their store. It was SEPTEMBER for heavens sake, and in Kentish orchards the apples were rotting on the ground and having to be buried in pits. Meanwhile their shelves were full of tasteless French golden delicious and Braeburns imported from South Africa.

I wrote to Tescos about this absurd situation and they said they wanted to increase consumer choice. So I exercised mine.

When it comes down to it, consumer purchasing power is the only tool we have. We can't vote for change through the ballot box, because all the parties support globalisation of trade (which is actually what this is all about). But we can stop giving them our money.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> It isn't off-topic though, because of all the energy needed to grow and transport fruit and vegetables that are grown in the wrong place at the wrong time, just so the pampered consumer can eat strawberries in January or tangerines in August.
> 
> I stopped shopping in Tescos in 1997 after I could not find a single English apple in their store. It was SEPTEMBER for heavens sake, and in Kentish orchards the apples were rotting on the ground and having to be buried in pits. Meanwhile their shelves were full of tasteless French golden delicious and Braeburns imported from South Africa.
> 
> ...


You can stop giving tescos your money, but millions of others wont. Quite frankly, globalisation of trade is just one of the ways that will help third world countries dig themselves out of poverty without having to be given handouts and teach them how to support themselves, There are plenty of greengrocers and farm shops where you can buy locally produced fruit, veg and meat - so there is choice for all. Or you could go self-sufficient, certainly with fruit and veg

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> You can stop giving tescos your money, but millions of others wont. Quite frankly, globalisation of trade is just one of the ways that will help third world countries dig themselves out of poverty without having to be given handouts and teach them how to support themselves, There are plenty of greengrocers and farm shops where you can buy locally produced fruit, veg and meat - so there is choice for all. Or you could go self-sufficient, certainly with fruit and veg
> 
> Jo xxx


Globalisation of trade is just one of the ways of ensuring developing countries grow things that they can't use to feed their own population, but which they must export in order to pay off their debts to the IMF.

But we really are getting off the alternative power topic now - sorry! :focus:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

:focus:

One thing that surprises me is that all those gyms where people go for their workouts have loads of lights and music going all the time wasting energy, but there are all the keep-fit fanatics pumping away and using up/wasting even more energy. Why can't *that* waste of energy be harnessed either to power the lights, etc. and/or fed back to the grid?

:focus:

Someone commented a way back (I think it was Willie, but I can't find the post) about log burners and pollution - I have to disagree there since around here there are millions of olive trees and cherry and almond and peach trees which are being rooted out and pruned so that from mid October through to about April/May everywhere has a constant blue haze of wood-smoke from where that wood is being burnt on the campo to eradicate and prevent the spread of pests and diseases. 

By burning that wood in our log burner, we are still eradicating the pests and diseases AND burning the wood much more efficiently (hotter) thereby reducing the smoke particulate element of pollution. The log burner saves our using LPG (in the estufa) and electricity (heaters and inverters) thereby reducing our energy usage and our environmental impact and saving us money.

:focus:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> :focus:
> 
> One thing that surprises me is that all those gyms where people go for their workouts have loads of lights and music going all the time wasting energy, but there are all the keep-fit fanatics pumping away and using up/wasting even more energy. Why can't *that* waste of energy be harnessed either to power the lights, etc. and/or fed back to the grid?
> 
> :focus:


 Oh how many times have I said that - its all such a waste isnt it

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> :focus:
> 
> One thing that surprises me is that all those gyms where people go for their workouts have loads of lights and music going all the time wasting energy, but there are all the keep-fit fanatics pumping away and using up/wasting even more energy. Why can't *that* waste of energy be harnessed either to power the lights, etc. and/or fed back to the grid?
> 
> ...


yes it was me and whilst I agree with everything you say about log burners/wood burning,my point was the CO2 released and with the possible exception of Geo-Thermal power generation, there is no such thing as "clean"power.

Pesky..I don't think you are stupid...misguided, prone to generalising, and sometimes just wrong ?.... YES....Stupid? NO.

The stupid ones, I "wind -up" for while ...then ignore them. I haven't ignored you, so far.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The biggest problem in the world today is that there are too many people! 

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> The biggest problem in the world today is that there are too many people!
> 
> Jo xxx


Blimey jojo - we agree on something! I have done my bit to solve this problem by having none myself.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> Pesky..I don't think you are stupid...misguided, prone to generalising, and sometimes just wrong ?.... YES....Stupid? NO.


Thank you so much for that vote of confidence. 

I'd be quite happy to be ignored by you, so don't feel badly!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jimenato said:


> Blimey jojo - we agree on something! I have done my bit to solve this problem by having none myself.



...... and I'm doing my bit by smoking lol!!! 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*solar power in Spain*

Here's smth which I found by accident just now, and which I found very interesting, mainly because they're saying exactly what I've been saying in this thread!! 

If it's too long for you or too boring just go to minute 10:15 and listen to what this man says until the end of the clip.

Video: Spain's solar towers light the way to a brighter, cleaner future | Science | guardian.co.uk

PS Unfortunately, while it's true that the government did initially invest heavily in solar power, they have reneged on the feeding tariffs that were initially negotiated and they are not so favourable towards solar power now. I know because the bank I work with is the main provider of loans to solar farms in Spain/ Europe.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

jojo said:


> The biggest problem in the world today is that there are too many people!
> 
> Jo xxx


TEOTWAWKI jojo TEOTWAWKI is on its way, that'll thin out the numbers a bit.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> TEOTWAWKI jojo TEOTWAWKI is on its way, that'll thin out the numbers a bit.


Agreed - just don't know what's going to cause it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jimenato said:


> Agreed - just don't know what's going to cause it.


It should have happened before now, but humans are very clever at defying nature - diseases and natural disasters are the usual method of culling. But eventually there will be too many humans for the planet to support and there wont be anything we can do about it. I guess thats what all the fuss is about now and humans are frantically trying to find ways to sharing the resources we have - when they run out????????????? Summat will happen eventually, even if its the sun imploding - that'll stop us worrying about standby buttons and electric cars!!!!!

Gosh, I'm a bit flippant arent I - sorry!

Jo xxx


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

jimenato said:


> Agreed - just don't know what's going to cause it.


Prepare for it though Jim, while I'm not as commited as my fiend who spent £30k I am a 'prepper' and carry large stocks of food and fuel etc at home.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Prepare for it though Jim, while I'm not as commited as my fiend who spent £30k I am a 'prepper' and carry large stocks of food and fuel etc at home.


Depending on the cause I might not actually want to survive it. 

BTW I live in Jimena.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> How dangerous is it? Any sources?


So, problems in Japan with nuclear power after the recent earthquake. And Japan has a lot of nuclear power plants and and a lot of earthquakes every year. So we can add Tokaimura along with Chernobyl and others. BBC article here
BBC News | Asia-Pacific | Nuclear accident shakes Japan

As to the question raised by bob_bob "How dangerous is it?" Well, waste is radioactive for thousand of years. Sounds pretty dangerous to me...


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, problems in Japan with nuclear power after the recent earthquake. And Japan has a lot of nuclear power plants and and a lot of earthquakes every year. So we can add Tokaimura along with Chernobyl and others. BBC article here
> BBC News | Asia-Pacific | Nuclear accident shakes Japan
> 
> As to the question raised by bob_bob "How dangerous is it?" Well, waste is radioactive for thousand of years. Sounds pretty dangerous to me...


Well surprisingly (to me at least) the Japanese built these power stations very well indeed & they have performed well regardless of the expected catastrophe.

Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now! ? The Register


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

The Japanese plants have done well considering their age. The newer plants we must have in Europe will be even better built.

My thoughts are with those poor folk.


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