# Accidental/Dual UK/US National Advice please !



## Yorkie9

Like many others, I have just discovered I shoud have been filing .I moved to the UK with my British mother when I was 18 months old . I have an American father somewhere.....but have never met him. I was naturalised as a child and hold a Brtish passport. I have gone from feeling physically sick , to enraged .and more so since the UK seems to be doing nothing to address this. I have had the 'pop up 'questions on the internet bank and have ignored it for now. I know I can't for much longer. However, it is not easilly solved,, because I very much doubt I have a SSN. UK ID also seems to be changing, ,with country of birth being placeed on new driving licences and passports ( it used to be the city). I have one with city , but it will expire in the next few years. I don't think I can risk a lie.I am in a job that requires honesty and an issue with fraud could be a problem. I am terrified my bank account will be closed ; I will never be able to get a new mortgage and will lose the family home. I have dependent children and one to get through university . I am paying into a public sector pension and I'm worried this will be wiped out. I am below the income bracket and have limited savings . It doesn't look like I owe U.S tax. The questions I have :
Have others on the forum had theiir bank account closed ? How are people banking after this ? Have other U.S nationals managed to get a mortgage in the U.K ? How can I get a SSN if consulate is closed ? I want to renounce. ,but that will take years it seems. I am unclear whether I would get a CLN if I had not met the tax rules for reporting . I am also presuming SSN is required for this. I have a busy life and know I couldn't get my head around the tax forms (initially) Tax firms seem expensive and I don't know which ones people are using in this situation. Any help would be much appreciated.


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## 255

@Yorkie9 -- Please take a breath and just relax! You're certainly not the only one in this boat. First to directly answer your questions:

"Have others on the forum had their bank account closed?" This was common in the early days of FATCA -- now most banks simply ask for a copy of IRS form W-9, for their files: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf .

"Have other U.S nationals managed to get a mortgage in the U.K ?" Yes they have. You do remember Boris Johnson renouncing his U.S. citizenship after ponying up capital gains taxes to the U.S. for the sale of his UK home.

"How can I get a SSN if consulate is closed?" You need to send an e-mail to the SSA's FBU at the U.S. Embassy in London, utilizing their form: Send an E-mail to the Federal Benefits Unit .. They'll advise you what to do. They require an interview that can probably be done on the telephone.

The tax forms are not really that difficult, just a little foreign, since you haven't filed before. First, I would get an SSN. Second read the following for filing utilizing the "Streamlined" procedures: Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures | Internal Revenue Service . Then you'll need to file back taxes utilizing the correct IRS form 1040 for the years you are filing. You can download the forms from the IRS website: Internal Revenue Service | An official website of the United States government . Many folks also utilize free (or paid) online tax prep. software. Based on your query, it's doubtful you'll owe any tax -- generally it's just a paperwork drill, since you can eliminate most any taxes by utilizing the FEIE or the FTC.

Fortunately for you, your filing window will include the U.S.'s version of the COVID economic stimulus program, so you'll get more back in tax "credits" than the cost for your renunciation. In addition to the stimulus payments, there are also "child" tax credits, that might put a junk in your wallet!

It appears from your post that you didn't transfer your U.S. citizenship to your children (you would have had to live in the U.S. for 5 years with 2 years after age 14,) so that will simplify your life a bit.

Good luck! Cheers, 255

P.S. In addition to annual income tax filings, there is also an FBAR filing requirement, if you meet the parameters: Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR) | Internal Revenue Service .. This is an "information" return only. No taxes due with this one.


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## Moulard

If you are under 30 it is quite possible that you will have an SSN.

In the late 1980's to early 1990s is when they started enumeration at birth, and an application for an SSN became part of birth registration process (although it was opt in - via a tick the box process)

If you are older that than, then given your age when you left the US, you almost definitely will not have an SSN.

To obtain one you will need a copy of your US Birth Certificate, and another identity document (for example a UK Drivers licence or passport)

This page describes what you will need and the process and what you need.






Social Security Number and Card | SSA


Find out how to replace your Social Security Number card or request a card for the first time.



www.ssa.gov


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## Nononymous

I'll add to the pile. Relax, don't panic. Global compliance rates for people like yourself are on the order of 10 percent. The IRS does not have the means to find or penalize dual citizens outside the US, so it doesn't try.

A few thoughts:

Actual tax filing obligations can be safely ignored. The IRS can't touch you. They have no ability to collect penalties or monies owed from anyone in the UK. Stay out of the US tax system and your life will be simpler. If you were to begin filing you'd greatly limit your ability to invest using mutual funds and ISAs and so on. I won't go into the details but the short version is that the IRS greatly dislikes "foreign" mutual funds (see: PFIC). And then of course there's the matter of taxable capital gains after the sale of a primary residence (see: Boris J).

FATCA and banking will be an issue for you, given place of birth. I wasn't aware that UK identification documents will soon begin showing country instead of town/city. That is unfortunate, because it will make it more difficult to conceal US citizenship. If you are of a larcenous nature, continue pretending that you were "unaware" of your childhood US citizenship. At some future date someone may ask to see ID, or not. (In Canada, nobody checks to verify that you've answered the citizenship question correctly, so it's very easy to simply deny US person status and go about your business.)

If you are unavoidably identified as American, it's not the end of the world. The biggest concern is possible account closure if you cannot provide an SSN. I would apply for an SSN to prevent this. Otherwise all that happens is that some limited data (year-end balance and interest/dividend income, for certain account types) is sent to the IRS, where it gathers dust. There are reports of banks sometimes denying certain investment services to US-person clients. Mortgages should not be at risk.

If you wish to renounce US citizenship, it's a relatively simple process. You are not required to be in tax compliance, there is no need to file for years and somehow "square up" with the IRS. You do not need an SSN. You submit an application to the embassy, you wait in the queue for a year or more (long delays now due in part to the pandemic) then you go in and swear an oath and pay $2350. After that you cease to be a US citizen. Being caught up on US taxes then formally exiting the US tax system is a completely separate, optional process. In your case, no good reason to jump through those hoops.

If you are worried about potential implications of dishonesty for your own career, the first thing to do is obtain an SSN so that you can cease lying to banks at some future date when it becomes more difficult to do so. This prevents you from doing anything fraudulent under UK law. Then either continue as you haven been - not filing US tax returns - or renounce.


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## Nononymous

255 said:


> Fortunately for you, your filing window will include the U.S.'s version of the COVID economic stimulus program, so you'll get more back in tax "credits" than the cost for your renunciation. In addition to the stimulus payments, there are also "child" tax credits, that might put a junk in your wallet!
> 
> It appears from your post that you didn't transfer your U.S. citizenship to your children (you would have had to live in the U.S. for 5 years with 2 years after age 14,) so that will simplify your life a bit.


There would be no stimulus benefit for the children, or child tax credit, if the children do not have US citizenship.

The maximum that could have been received in stimulus benefits for a single adult is $3200. I don't know if that full amount is available now; it's possible one cannot backfile to receive all three of the installments since it was intended for crisis response. It might be worth filing returns to score a few thousand, or it might not - that is up to the OP. There is something nice about making Uncle Sam pay his own renunciation fee, but it may not be worth the hassle at this point.


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## Italia-Mx

Good information has been provided here and I agree with all of it. Not mentioned is that you can thank Barack Obama, the worst US president ever, for this mess and the burdens he created for Americans and their families overseas. And now as we would have it, his conspirator in chief, Biden, will yet again change things as I learned recently when I received an email from my US pension provider asking for additional information. I really don't want to hear from them. I just want them to send me the money I'm entitled to having worked my rear end off in the USA.


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## Nononymous

Italia-Mx said:


> Good information has been provided here and I agree with all of it. Not mentioned is that you can thank Barack Obama, the worst US president ever, for this mess and the burdens he created for Americans and their families overseas. And now as we would have it, his conspirator in chief, Biden, will yet again change things as I learned recently when I received an email from my US pension provider asking for additional information. I really don't want to hear from them. I just want them to send me the money I'm entitled to having worked my rear end off in the USA.


Don’t forget to thank Trump and the GOP for getting rid of FATCA when they had a majority in both houses. Thank them for the transition tax and GILTI too, that made life so much easier for US citizens living abroad.

Plenty of blame to spread around.


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## Yorkie9

Thanks folks, for taking the time to reply. I'm breathing just about. Nice to know that people are still functioning out there. Reading my post, I can see evidence of 'catastrophic' thinking, I have now looked into changes regarding passports /licenses. I can't ' find any info about this ,so thinking my friend is wrong. Her new license does have country on it rather than city, not sure this would apply to all.She hasn't even seen the post Brexit passport! In the U.K ,to get a mortgage or major loan , sight of ID. is required. I was applying for a new credit card and was met with the U.S questions on the form. This is the first time I have seen this . I worry all these institutions are connected; the passage of personal information flows so freely these days.Getting caught by one institution ,will maybe give them all a reason to deny me services/banking. I am presuming one can't use Streamlined Procedure if there is actual evidence of wilful evasion. I really want to renounce, the world is too unstable and the power and reach of the U.S is unnerving . It looks like it will take an age, so I might need to get a SSN in the meantime. This feels like jumping into the abyss.....as a family we are divided as to what to do. My coping strategy..head in sand  !!


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## Bevdeforges

Yorkie9 said:


> I worry all these institutions are connected; the passage of personal information flows so freely these days.


That's one worry you can drop. Different offices and departments within the same country are notoriously bad at exchanging information (and in some countries - like the US - that is specifically prohibited).


Yorkie9 said:


> I am presuming one can't use Streamlined Procedure if there is actual evidence of wilful evasion.


To be honest, they really don't check much, if anything about what you tell them on your "why haven't you been filing?" document. They ask for "details" but most people just say that either they "didn't realize they had to file" or something about having lost contact with the US and basically it all slipped their minds over the years. Unless you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of back taxes on your record, they will just file everything away and you're done with it. (Also speaks to the reasons that, if you do file Streamlined, you keep your filings dead simple.) 

Honestly, I wouldn't bother with Streamlined if you're determined to renounce. They "remind" you that you're supposed to be up to date with your taxes, and that you're supposed to file a final return(s) for the year in which your renunciation becomes effective, but no one seems to actually check on any of that. And they don't ask you directly if you are up to date or "in compliance" with your taxes. (The State Department and the IRS definitely don't get along and don't particularly exchange information anyhow.)


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## Italia-Mx

Nononymous said:


> Don’t forget to thank Trump and the GOP for getting rid of FATCA when they had a majority in both houses. Thank them for the transition tax and GILTI too, that made life so much easier for US citizens living abroad.
> 
> Plenty of blame to spread around.


I had read that some of these changes were to be on Trump's agenda during his second term. During his first term, my siblings and I sold our family home and found the capital gains tax rate to be delightful. In fact we got money back. My companion and his siblings are filing capital gains this year for their family property and they are concerned with the increased rate they will have to pay. Elections have consequences.


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## Nononymous

Italia-Mx said:


> I had read that some of these changes were to be on Trump's agenda during his second term.


Fat chance. FATCA repeal/reform wasn’t, isn’t and won’t be on anyone’s radar. Fortunately it’s easy for some of us duals to ignore FATCA.


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## Nononymous

Yorkie9 said:


> I really want to renounce, the world is too unstable and the power and reach of the U.S is unnerving . It looks like it will take an age, so I might need to get a SSN in the meantime. This feels like jumping into the abyss.....as a family we are divided as to what to do. My coping strategy..head in sand  !!


Get in the queue to renounce (wait time will be approximately one year) and forget about tax filing, you can ignore that. Continue lying to banks to avoid FATCA and hopefully you won’t need an SSN.

Dead simple, no reason for stress.


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## Yorkie9

Thanks folks, I'll put myself on the waiting list and see what the covid wait times are like .Half my family would support Nononymous, and the rest are risk averse like me. The stuff I read ,kept mentioning exit tax and signing forms to confirm tax compliance and one couldn't get the CLN if you weren't. Lying about where one is born on a bank form and mortgage application would be considered fraud in UK . I dont owe any tax to the US, ( I think) but I become a criminal either way : for not filing or lying in UK. Is it true , my non U.S children's names and DoBs would be shared with FATCA ..... my name is on their bank accounts ?


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## Pacifica

@ Yorkie,

Filing tax prior to renunciation is not required. (It's also been pretty common for people who never filed/have no SSN/no US financial life to just renounce and leave things at that.) Here’s some background info on the relationship between Department of State and IRS regarding renunciation.

*1) Dept of State*

Dept of State basically doesn’t care about one’s tax status as the citizenship itself (and the issuance of the CLN) is not dependent on one being tax compliant. DoS’s involvement/connection with tax is the following:

*(a)* At the consulate the person signs DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences; one of the 12 items on it is Item 10, that renouncing “… may not exempt me from US tax income taxation [etc] …”

*(b)* The DS-4079, which is relevant and required for relinquishments, is not used for renunciations. However, some consulates have used it for renunciation (while DoS discourages its use with renunciation, they do not forbid it 7 FAM 1264  Your local consulate will let you know which forms they require, either on their website or when you send in an appointment request).

This questionnaire, DS-4079, asks at q. 13 (e) “Do you file US income or other tax returns?” This question is on the DS-4079 is there as an indicator of your ties and connections to the US, which is important if you’re claiming to have relinquished some years ago (in which case you’re trying to illustrate your lack of ties/connections/citizenship behaviour). For renunciations, it’s irrelevant if you have ties/connections/citizenship behaviour or not – and your answer has no bearing on if you can renounce or not.

* (c)* Dept of State is to provide IRS with a copy of each CLN they issue as per DoS Interagency Coordination and Reporting Requirements, 7 FAM 1243(a).

*(2) IRS*

To log out of IRS and avoid covered expatriate status, IRS requires that the person file their exit tax form (8854), their final year form, and has “complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of your expatriation” basically, for most people, file, unless your income was below the minimum threshhold which requires filing), by June 15th of the year following the renunciation.

If a person does not file, the citizenship itself remains terminated and the CLN remains valid. 

***

Also, London is a pretty efficient embassy to renounce at. London has a lot of experience with renunciation (not all locations do) and they’ve got very good reviews from people who renounced there. The Consulate Report Directory at the Isaac Brock Society website has several pages of London Embassy reviews, p.169-83.


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## Pacifica

@ Yorkie,
The final link in my above comment doesn't seem to work, but you can reach it by googling Consulate Report Directory Isaac Brock Society.


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## Nononymous

> The stuff I read ,kept mentioning exit tax and signing forms to confirm tax compliance and one couldn't get the CLN if you weren't.


The stuff you read is not true. It was probably a sales pitch for overpriced expat tax services. See Pacifica's lengthy explanation above.



> Lying about where one is born on a bank form and mortgage application would be considered fraud in UK . I dont owe any tax to the US, ( I think) but I become a criminal either way : for not filing or lying in UK.


Relax. Nobody's a criminal until they get caught, and nobody gets caught for this. I'm a criminal both ways - I don't file and I lie to banks - and I'm very much enjoying my liberty. Have been for quite some time now.



> Is it true , my non U.S children's names and DoBs would be shared with FATCA ..... my name is on their bank accounts ?


It's possible that some info might be shared, but ultimately so what if it is? The children are not US citizens so the IRS has no claim to them. However, as a general rule US persons like yourself should not set up their children's banking (particularly in the case of children who are US citizens born abroad but who wish to remain off the radar, so that they can avoid FATCA from the start) or act as executor or power of attorney or otherwise have signing authority over accounts, if they are concerned about being unable to conceal their birthplace or citizenship.


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## Italia-Mx

Interesting. I don't know of any bank in Europe that will open an account for a client that does not provide identity information which usually indicates place of birth. Birth in the USA means US citizenship.


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## Italia-Mx

Nononymous said:


> Fat chance. FATCA repeal/reform wasn’t, isn’t and won’t be on anyone’s radar. Fortunately it’s easy for some of us duals to ignore FATCA.


You must mean because you were born outside of the USA to an American parent? Those born on US soil cannot hide it.


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## Nononymous

Italia-Mx said:


> You must mean because you were born outside of the USA to an American parent? Those born on US soil cannot hide it.


Canadian banks will allow you to open an account with only a drivers' license as ID, which does not show place of birth. Very easy to avoid FATCA if you know not to incriminate yourself, even if born in the US.

UK passports only show town or city of birth, not country, so it's often possible to hide US citizenship. Not sure about Australia or New Zealand but I think they are also relatively lax.

I have a German account opened just before FATCA came into effect using a Canadian passport showing US birthplace. I gave my citizenship as Canadian and they asked no further questions.

It may also be possible to talk one's way out of being flagged as a US citizen by claiming that one parent was a diplomat or military officer and therefore US citizenship was not granted.


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## Italia-Mx

I opened my Italian account long before FATCA using my Italian passport, which lists United States as birthplace. It took the Italian bank a few years to catch up, but eventually it did comply with FATCA and had me fill out some extra paperwork because I am a US person. Don't be surprised if the German bank eventually catches up with you if it is interested in complying with the IRS.


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## Bevdeforges

Italia-Mx said:


> Don't be surprised if the German bank eventually catches up with you if it is interested in complying with the IRS.


The other thing is that some European banks have a similar requirement for "foreigners" who maintain bank accounts. There is a duty of reporting foreign account holders to the tax authority of the various European countries. Some banks are simply sending out a query to all foreigners who hold bank accounts - though, as you say, Italia-Mx it may take the banks a while to get around to everyone.


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## Nononymous

Italia-Mx said:


> I opened my Italian account long before FATCA using my Italian passport, which lists United States as birthplace. It took the Italian bank a few years to catch up, but eventually it did comply with FATCA and had me fill out some extra paperwork because I am a US person. Don't be surprised if the German bank eventually catches up with you if it is interested in complying with the IRS.


If it was a US passport, they might have figured it out. But for whatever reason a Canadian passport with a US birthplace has not been flagged. If they ever notice I'll just tell them I've renounced (in the near future this will no longer be a lie).


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