# Toilet permission...



## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Hi All, 

I've just heard that if I want to change my toilet (not the whole toilet, but just the toilet, the thingy where you seat down to.... erm... read), I will have to ask for permission to the Council and fill in a 'obra menor' form .. and pay, of course!

Is that true? (A local policeman told me, as I was enquiring where could I get rid of my old toilet, silly me!).

Does that mean, I need permission for putting new tiles on the floor, or new kitchen cabinets? 

It is just so silly, I thought interior works (as long as you are not knocking down walls, and things like that), you could do whatever you wanted? It is your house!! and besides, how would they know if I have changed the interior? 

pah!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Unfortunately, this is all going to vary from municipality to municipality.

We built an addition and the mayor said "Are you going to bother anyone?" "No." "Then don't worry about it."


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I've just heard that if I want to change my toilet (not the whole toilet, but just the toilet, the thingy where you seat down to.... erm... read), I will have to ask for permission to the Council and fill in a 'obra menor' form .. and pay, of course!
> 
> ...


Yes, you need a licence to put in a new toilet.
Tiling painting etc depends on the council.
They find out
A - if neighbours complain about noise, mess, skips blocking the street etc
B - sometimes councils ask the police to patrol and look out for this kind of thing

All the councils want usually is the money, so if you think you can paint for example without disturbing anybody, you might want to consider whether you get that licence or not


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

I was replacing a couple of broken floor tiles and the local policeman (AKA glorified traffic warden), asked to see my licence???!!!!


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

World's gone mad!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

We do not have any Local Police, they have all left or transferred, or in the case of the Chief of Police he is not long term sick. Neither do we have such licences or if we do nobody bothers applying for them.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't think most people bother to be honest but I would apply for most things. I think.
They must love foreigners and their easy money.

At least none of it goes down on the deeds and what not, it just seems to be a revenue raiser. I'd say check the town hall's website but I'm yet to see one that may actually be helpful on the matter.
Best to go in an ask or maybe even phone.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, you need a licence to put in a new toilet.
> Tiling painting etc depends on the council.
> They find out
> A - if neighbours complain about noise, mess, skips blocking the street etc
> ...


But you don't need it for simply changing an "inodoro".


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Depends on the town hall though.

I put inodoro obra menor into google and have found some say that as long as it doesn't bother anyone it's not a problem and others definitely have a process where you apply to change a toilet or a sink over.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Depends on the town hall though.
> 
> I put inodoro obra menor into google and have found some say that as long as it doesn't bother anyone it's not a problem and others definitely have a process where you apply to change a toilet or a sink over.


I've just tried the same but couldn't find a council asking for a licencia for changing an inodoro for a private residence. I saw one that seemed to require it for locales though.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

We are required to have a licence to paint internal walls but only if we are changing the colour. This, however, does not apply to the outside walls - no licence required.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> But you don't need it for simply changing an "inodoro".


I'm glad you don't, and apologies to the OP Lolito, but it doesn't make sense. You supposedly need a licence in some districts to paint, or replace tiles, but you don't to replace a toilet...
The op would do well to ask though as a policeman has already told him he does need one and may well be keeping an eye out to see when that old toilet is taken out. Personally I can think of more interesting things to be doing, but there's no accounting for taste


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> We are required to have a licence to paint internal walls but only if we are changing the colour. This, however, does not apply to the outside walls - no licence required.


Hahahaha.
For real??
So you could paint the outside of your house with pink and yellow polka dots, but you can't change the colour of internal walls from white to blue??


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

OP- ask your friends and neighbours if they obtained a licence for changing the toilet, painting the walls, changing titles etc. and when they've finished laughing, they'll get off the floor and shout NO!
I'm all for doing the right thing, and getting licences for extensions etc, but this business of practically not being able to breathe without one is ludicrous.
If the councils are so short of money that they have to resort to this, raise the painfully small amounts of IBI some pay, chase up traffic fines, but don't penalise the golden geese of Spain
Yes I know the licensing laws apply to Spanish too, but do you know what they do about such things? -NOTHING!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Chopera said:


> But you don't need it for simply changing an "inodoro".


I'm not sure I agree - our town hall states that you need a licence to do ANYTHING on your property.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahahaha.
> For real??
> So you could paint the outside of your house with pink and yellow polka dots, but you can't change the colour of internal walls from white to blue??


For real. In fact it gets scarier; you can build an extension of up to 10% without a licence or planning permission, you can have services connected but you can't paint the walls for the first time as they are deemed not to have a colour so you need a licence for that and outside too on a new build. You cannot connect water to any appliances in the extension without a licence, but you can install them without a licence. There are loads more and I am told all the Spanish ignore the lot apart from the obvious which is a licence to build a fence as this is a status symbol.


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## Maureen47 (Mar 27, 2014)

Are you serious about painting inside walls , how do they know what colour they are , do you register your interior design somewhere and apply if you want to change it ! I too am all for living by the rules in the foreign country I choose to live in but this seems a bit OTT


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

If councils are so strapped for cash that they need money from 
these petty and ridiculous licences, I suggest they chase up the Under the radars, tax evaders, fines, and stop putting people off living here.
Everyone would agree that licences are needed in certain situations, but they are making a mockery of obliging ex pats, and their own citizens just laugh at us.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I live on an urb in the Comunidad de Madrid. There are about 100 houses and about 90% of the people living here are Spanish. This used to be an area where Madrileños came to spend the weekend, but as transport and services have improved drastically these second home residences are nearly all occupied year round now. This has meant that again about 90%, of these Spanish owned and lived in houses have had major work done on them. Some get licences and some don't. Many have been fined (ourselves included) for doing work without a licence. 
The reason we didn't get a licence initially was that when I made inquiries I was told that no more licences were to be given in this area which was, to our way of thinking arbitary, unjust and without any reason behind it, so we went ahead with a major reform. A neighbour reported us, we paid a fine and were able to carry on and complete the work. Nothing more was said about not being able to do any work on our house in this area???
The neighbour has reported 3 other people in the street for the same thing, but they all had licences (it was a few years before we did ours) - he doesn't like work vans parking outside his house.
So no, "the Spanish" don't all ignore the licence factor and yes the police do come round to check sometimes, and yes you do have to get a licence for XYZ depending on your town hall. The only way to find out if you're doing it the right way is to go and ask them. Then you can decide if you're going to ignore what they tell you or not!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I' m all for licences for major reforms, extensions, under builds etc , but changing a loo, painting inside, changing tiles? 
I's a money sucking exercise, for which the council knows expats anxious to do every thing right will oblige- nice little earner.
We went to but a sign for our car stating "hazardous substances "when carrying a gas bottle, as we heard that someone on the estate had been fined for not displaying one.
The chap at the ferriteria ( son of a councillor)laughed and said no self respecting Spaniard would buy it, and would not get a fine for not displaying one, either!


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## jonmlb748 (Oct 30, 2011)

as our chief of police is currently under lock and key (calvia)along with several of his cohorts and more arrests pending,I think the locales have more important things to worry about than people replacing a bog inside their house .


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I'll go tomorrow to the Town Hall and see if they like my new flowery pattern curtains, I am sure they might have something to say about that too!


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I heard that the police station in Velez-Malaga has been broken in to and 40 toilets were stolen. Police have nothing to go on....

Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I've always been guided by what the natives do. The builder we used in the past applied for licences stating the minimum possible, so the (3-car) carport is a _leñera_ while the extra terrace never had one at all. I reckon if you have a skip and obvious heavy work being done it pays to pay for _a_ licence, although there don't ever seem to be checks done to see if you did what it stated. I've never got a licence for interior decorating, nor do I know anyone who has. 

My Spanish in-laws had some major work done recently and were grassed up by a neighbour as they'd started before the licence was in place. The work had to stop for weeks.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I never understood why neighbours are so nosy!! Live and let live. Horrible people! lol!


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lolito said:


> World's gone mad!


It is so easy to check what you need to do (where you live) ask in the planning office of the town hall. As said previously, the limitations on what work can be carried out without a licence vary from municipality to municipality. 

PS It used to be in UK that he rateable value 'could' be increased for any improvements and that included painting the window frames or replacing them with hardwood, plastic etc. I paid more when I installed central heating in Bexleyheath in 1964. Probably every county has what some might consider as 'Mad'.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Replacing toilets in the UK can be complicated as well, if you just take out the toilet and put a new one in place that is fine, but if you want to move the toilet to a different place within the same room you need to check if you need building regs, some councils will say yes, some say no, but in truth as it involves new drainage, it strictly should have building regs. They do, however, insist on visiting the property and check the installation usually twice to ensure compliance. But as for painting and all of the other nonsense no. When we had a campo property in the Nerja area we did many if not most of the things mentioned here and never ever approached the town hall


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm sure I have read though that you can claim a tax deduction when it comes time to sell your property in Spain based on the home improvements that you do.
So in that respect at least it is wise to go through the correct channels to have a paper trail and proof to claim your deduction.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> I'm sure I have read though that you can claim a tax deduction when it comes time to sell your property in Spain based on the home improvements that you do.
> So in that respect at least it is wise to go through the correct channels to have a paper trail and proof to claim your deduction.


This must have changed in the last 3 years as when I sold a villa that I had licensed work done, I was told by my solicitor that there was nothing except buying and selling costs that can be set against sales tax.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Having a look it appears to apply to non-residents and deducting the adjusted cost of the property from CGT, no idea if it applies elsewhere too.

It does look as if it was a change in 2012.
Tax changes in 2012


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I thought the Home Improvements were only if you do things like ramps for wheelchairs, or any similar things for disabled people, rather than just a wall here or a wall there.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Having a look it appears to apply to non-residents and deducting the adjusted cost of the property from CGT, no idea if it applies elsewhere too.
> 
> It does look as if it was a change in 2012.
> Tax changes in 2012


You are right, Seems like it did indeed change in 2012, but as always in Spain I suppose it will be a grey area, what are renovations and works will depend on the interpretation of the tax office but to be fair to them when I sold in 2010 I got the 3%retention back very quickly as we made no profit and no loss


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Hello again! If the owner of the house I am buying wants 10k in cash, how do people do this? Won't Hacienda finds out? Is it money in cash? I believe this is a normal practice in this country?


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

It is common practice in Spain but be careful, if the house is already a bargain price as it is likely to be in the current market, you are likely to get another tax demand if the tax people think it is too cheap. The seller is trying to reduce his tax liability but you could end up paying his tax. If and when you sell the house that you buy you will have to pay tax on that 10k. You do it by having cash at the notary and go into a separate room to pay the money over. You might want to post a new thread for this as you will get lots of advice


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> I believe this is a normal practice in this country?


I am confused.
I thought you were Spanish, although had lived in the UK for some years?


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Yes I am Spanish but never bought a house in this country (Spain), so I haven't got a clue about all these things! I left Spain when I was 20 and came back when I was 45.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I know what you mean ABERAFON, it is not the first time they have asked us to pay money in cash, but I am not sure we should be doing it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Yes I am Spanish but never bought a house in this country (Spain), so I haven't got a clue about all these things! I left Spain when I was 20 and came back when I was 45.


Yes, I suppose it's the same for me. I haven't got a clue how to buy a house in the UK, or a car, or if you have to do paperwork to enrol a child in school etc etc.  but there are family members who could give me a hand.
So to answer your question, certainly in the past a very high proportion of house purchases involved part being paid in black and if you didn't do that, there was no sale which is what happened to us. I didn't know that that was the norm, and we wanted the house (I was pregnant) and that was the way it was done.
I'm not sure about nowadays, but if the housing market is as desperate as it's made out to be maybe you can insist on it all being above board and not have that worry to think about, because it is, of course, illegal!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We have been asked the same, they wanted 50 thousand cash after accepting an offer.
Not only could we not do that as we didn't have the money but I in no way want to be a part of or condone this constant illegal activity. It just will deepen the mess the housing market is already in by supporting this behaviour.
My opinion is you shouldn't do it, it's illegal after all.

Heck, even the bank has asked if we intend to pay a part under the table. They don't care either.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

My worry is that if I say NO, they owner will not sell to me, the price is cheap to be honest, for what it is, but it is a house in a rustic area, but legal and with electricity, water and phone lines. I will talk to the agents to see what they think.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

The price is cheap? Probably because he is desperate to sell. Would he be prepared to let a decent buyer go? Do you want it so much that you would effectively pay more than agreed (taking into account possible future tax liabilities) and are prepared to take the risk of being 'found out' - because it is illegal, after all. The agent will push for a sale in any way possible as that will get him his commission. He will not be bothered by what happens to you.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lolito said:


> My worry is that if I say NO, they owner will not sell to me, the price is cheap to be honest, for what it is, but it is a house in a rustic area, but legal and with electricity, water and phone lines. I will talk to the agents to see what they think.


Maybe interestingly: In Spain it is usual practice when one agrees to buy that the compraventa (contract) demands a 10% deposit. If the seller pulls out they are required to return the deposit and an equal amount, in compensation. If the seller pulls out they lose their deposit. That would seem to establish a situation where if you have signed the compraventa say for 10,000 less than the agreed price, then before the notary you could insist that the property is transferred for the amount agreed in the compraventa. If it is not, then the seller would be required to pay the compensation as above.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

In the end, we decided not to go with it and we will be buying properly, I don't need the hassle. 

They have accepted the offer and now things will be moving quickly (or so I hope!). 

I will come back here as I have lots of questions for you all, after all, you all seem to know everything! lol!

by the way... first question, can you tile the floor, without getting rid of the existing tiles? i.e tile on top of tiles?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lolito said:


> In the end, we decided not to go with it and we will be buying properly, I don't need the hassle.
> 
> They have accepted the offer and now things will be moving quickly (or so I hope!).
> 
> ...


Yes.

I am told by experts that you shouldn't but I've seen it done with no problems.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lolito said:


> by the way... first question, can you tile the floor, without getting rid of the existing tiles? i.e tile on top of tiles?


Yes you can but of course, depending on where you tile, you may have to raise the toilet pan, bidet, hand basin etc. to get a good finished job, and raise or cut doors, and if you tile one room and not the adjoining one, then you will have a 'step'


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> In the end, we decided not to go with it and we will be buying properly, I don't need the hassle.
> 
> They have accepted the offer and now things will be moving quickly (or so I hope!).
> 
> ...


I think it might be a bit risky, but
First you'd have to check that you're not going to muck up doors opening, and you'd have to take out any cupboards etc before tiling.
It would probably be better to put a self levelling compound before to take care of any uneveness (it's like a concrete sryup that you pour on and it levels out on its own) but then of course you take up some of the space.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Thanks All, we want to change the bathroom totally, so we'll have no problems with rising things up, doors will need to be cut but I am sure the professionals would know what to do, I don't intend to do it myself, although I'd like to think I am quite good at tiling walls, never tried floors tho.

I guess I will need permissions for tiling the floors, for painting the walls, for changing the kitchen cupboards and changing the bath, toilet, sink, for this, for that, blah blah blah...


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Lolito said:


> Thanks All, we want to change the bathroom totally, so we'll have no problems with rising things up, doors will need to be cut but I am sure the professionals would know what to do, I don't intend to do it myself, although I'd like to think I am quite good at tiling walls, never tried floors tho.
> 
> I guess I will need permissions for tiling the floors, for painting the walls, for changing the kitchen cupboards and changing the bath, toilet, sink, for this, for that, blah blah blah...


Be aware that even if you have someone in to do the job, if a licence is needed, then it is your responsibility to get it or you get fined not the contractor.
But again I say, ask the town hall as you may or may not need a licence.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Lolito said:


> In the end, we decided not to go with it and we will be buying properly, I don't need the hassle.
> 
> They have accepted the offer and now things will be moving quickly (or so I hope!).
> 
> ...


You can tile on tile, in fact placing tiles on existing tiles provides a good surface, but you have to use an adhesive that is suitable as not all will adhere. Whilst tiling in wall tiles usually involves just a bit of inconvenience with tile stand off where they end, i.e. not at a ceiling etc. it is easy to get over it. However, I had done both wall and floor and on concrete and tile. I think the problems of resetting loos, possibly kitchen cabinets wardrobes and other unknowns out weight getting up the old tiles , levelling and retiling to a clean surface. Also if you have tile up-stands on the wall that could be a problem. Think carefully, get advice from a good craftsman or women.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

The Tiles are floor tiles. We won't be doing any tiling in the walls, or so we hope! Went to Leroy Merlin today and asked for advice.


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