# US IRS "ID.me" sign-in app



## Leforgeron

Has anyone been able to use this without having a US telephone number? If so, please tell me how you did it


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## Bevdeforges

This page says that you can't use the app unless you have a US telephone number.





Identity and Tax Return Verification Service | Internal Revenue Service


Use the identity verification (ID Verify) service if you received an IRS 5071C letter, 5747C letter or 5447C letter.




www.irs.gov





But there is a phone number you can call if you don't have the i.d. information they require.


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## Leforgeron

Bevdeforges said:


> This page says that you can't use the app unless you have a US telephone number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Identity and Tax Return Verification Service | Internal Revenue Service
> 
> 
> Use the identity verification (ID Verify) service if you received an IRS 5071C letter, 5747C letter or 5447C letter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irs.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But there is a phone number you can call if you don't have the i.d. information they require.


Bev, thank you!

ID.me appears to be an outside provider of security services for the IRS and the use of the ID.me system is now mandatory for new users to access the on-line features on the IRS website. The weird thing about the ID.me system is that you can use a foreign phone number and adresse to sign up, but in order to complete the on-line face scan identification procedure (after having uploaded a copy of your US passport), you need either a US telephone number or to have used a US adresse on your IRS filings. So you waste a lot of time just to get bounced at the very end. As a general observation, even if it worked, the US government is basically forcing you to give all this detailed personal information to an outside provider about whom you know absolutely nothing.


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## papaia

Leforgeron said:


> ...you need either a US telephone number...


Can you setup a google voice account in the US, maybe with the help of a friend there, who could provide her US cell number temporarily (the cell number could then be removed from the google account)? Or have someone in the US get a temp ($10) SIM card, plug it in their cell, for a temp cell number, to register the goole voice with it?


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## Bevdeforges

Leforgeron said:


> As a general observation, even if it worked, the US government is basically forcing you to give all this detailed personal information to an outside provider about whom you know absolutely nothing.


Same as it ever was (to quote the Talking Heads) I'm afraid. When e-filing first came available you couldn't efile from outside the US (for a variety of reasons) and it took years for that to change. And then you could only efile if you paid an outside tax prep provider (software or real person). Free file only started a few years after that, but since the beginning there are very few of the Free file vendors that will handle "overseas taxpayers" filings (and only with multiple restrictions on age, income and probably phase of the moon). 

Same goes for US Social Security. You can only use the "My Social Security" site if you have a US mailing address, though way too many SS sites point you to the My Social Security site for standard functions. 

I figure if they insist on counting overseas residents as "US taxpayers" the least they can do is to consider them when building these online systems. Which definitely accounts for the many folks you'll run into who just ignore the whole business. Unless you're in fairly stratospheric tax brackets, chances are they'll never actually go looking for you. Or, for a mere $2350 you can put all that nonsense behind you.


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## Nunthewiser

$2,350 but then you have to settle up with Uncle and I think trying to figure out who owes who how much would make my head explode. Then, there's the matter of the US/France tax treaty that one would no longer have the benefit of...hmmm.


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## rynd2it

Leforgeron said:


> Has anyone been able to use this without having a US telephone number? If so, please tell me how you did it


I am currently struggling with it due to the anomalies. I used my French phone to receive a 6-digit code to allow me to set up the account and then it accepted my French address as well so all the supporting documents will match the address for verification. However, the next step to complete verification will not accept a phone number or address outside the US. I currently have a support call into them to get around this - they offer a video call to complete the verification but I can't get this to work as their specifications for supporting documents are impossible to meet - e.g utility bill less than 90 days old; mine got rejected because it isn't in English!

America can be amazingly parochial at times, I'll let you know how it goes if they answer my support ticket.


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> $2,350 but then you have to settle up with Uncle and I think trying to figure out who owes who how much would make my head explode. Then, there's the matter of the US/France tax treaty that one would no longer have the benefit of...hmmm.


If you've taken French nationality to be able to renounce, you're still entitled to most (if not all) the tax treaty benefits - being a citizen of and resident of one of the treaty countries. 

And to be quite honest about it, unless you owe Uncle a ton of money in back or current taxes, most renuncients don't bother to "settle up."


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## rynd2it

rynd2it said:


> I am currently struggling with it due to the anomalies. I used my French phone to receive a 6-digit code to allow me to set up the account and then it accepted my French address as well so all the supporting documents will match the address for verification. However, the next step to complete verification will not accept a phone number or address outside the US. I currently have a support call into them to get around this - they offer a video call to complete the verification but I can't get this to work as their specifications for supporting documents are impossible to meet - e.g utility bill less than 90 days old; mine got rejected because it isn't in English!
> 
> America can be amazingly parochial at times, I'll let you know how it goes if they answer my support ticket.


After all that here is the response:

_
I understand that you need assistance with completing the verification process for the IRS.

However, since you are an international member, you will not be able to verify your identity with ID.me.

To pursue an alternative identity verification method with the IRS:

Visit the IRS application's login page.

Look for the section titled *What if I can't verify my identity*?

Click the *Alternative options* link._


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## JapanAmerica

I just completed this process yesterday. I live in Japan but am on this site because we are planning a move to France next year - I think all these IRS issues are the same wherever you go. In any event, I don't have either a US address or a US phone number, but I was able to complete the process online. For verification, I provided my passport, my SS card (had to get the original out of my safe deposit), a Fidelity account statement that showed my address in Japan (I guess I was lucky to have this), and the dreadful "selfie". I did not have any bank statements or other docs showing my full SS number, as most now show only the final four digits, but that was not a problem. It took a couple of days of back and forth sending them documents until they were happy, but then the video interview with the ID.me person was very quick - I just had to answer a few questions and show my original passport and Social Security card (back and front). It originally went down this rabbit hole because even my accountants were unable to efile my US return. The IRS conducted some sort of identify fraud investigation with respect to one of my returns a few years ago (resolved after I sent them a bunch of documents) and now they think I must have been assigned a PIN. Because they think I have one, the PIN is required to efile. I never actually received a PIN, so I have been trying to sort this out by getting the pin - to do that required an account, which now requires the ID.me verification. Now that I have that, I tried again this morning to request a pin, but that IRS site is down until January 22, so I'm just hoping I'll remember to follow up and get this sorted out before next year's filing deadline. I just sent this year's return by post and it cost me about $50 for registered. I know everyone complains about the French bureaucracy, but after dealing with the Japanese version for twenty years as well as the special hell US institutions create for us expat citizens, I keep thinking "how much worse could it possibly be?"


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## rynd2it

JapanAmerica said:


> I just completed this process yesterday. I live in Japan but am on this site because we are planning a move to France next year - I think all these IRS issues are the same wherever you go. In any event, I don't have either a US address or a US phone number, but I was able to complete the process online. For verification, I provided my passport, my SS card (had to get the original out of my safe deposit), a Fidelity account statement that showed my address in Japan (I guess I was lucky to have this), and the dreadful "selfie". I did not have any bank statements or other docs showing my full SS number, as most now show only the final four digits, but that was not a problem. It took a couple of days of back and forth sending them documents until they were happy, but then the video interview with the ID.me person was very quick - I just had to answer a few questions and show my original passport and Social Security card (back and front). It originally went down this rabbit hole because even my accountants were unable to efile my US return. The IRS conducted some sort of identify fraud investigation with respect to one of my returns a few years ago (resolved after I sent them a bunch of documents) and now they think I must have been assigned a PIN. Because they think I have one, the PIN is required to efile. I never actually received a PIN, so I have been trying to sort this out by getting the pin - to do that required an account, which now requires the ID.me verification. Now that I have that, I tried again this morning to request a pin, but that IRS site is down until January 22, so I'm just hoping I'll remember to follow up and get this sorted out before next year's filing deadline. I just sent this year's return by post and it cost me about $50 for registered. I know everyone complains about the French bureaucracy, but after dealing with the Japanese version for twenty years as well as the special hell US institutions create for us expat citizens, I keep thinking "how much worse could it possibly be?"


You were very lucky, the final screen for completing verification insists on a US address and US phone number and you cannot get past this point without it. As you can see from the response I got from them, they won't process overseas identity verification.


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## Bevdeforges

From the page that I cited above about this service, it sounds as if you can only sign up for it if you received one of those form letters.


> Use this service *only* if you have a:
> 
> 
> You received a 5071C letter, 5747C letter, 6331C letter, or 5447C letter and your financial and phone information is U.S. based, or;
> An IRS representative directed you to use it




It certainly doesn't sound like it's something open and available to all.


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> From the page that I cited above about this service, it sounds as if you can only sign up for it if you received one of those form letters.
> 
> 
> It certainly doesn't sound like it's something open and available to all.


Correct, I spoke to an IRS rep yesterday and he told me that it is practically impossible for a non-US resident to gain online access to their records or other service. The security ID process demands US phone and street addresses. They can't set it up for you either so there's no point in asking


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## papaia

rynd2it said:


> Correct, I spoke to an IRS rep yesterday and he told me that it is practically impossible for a non-US resident to gain online access to their records or other service. The security ID process demands US phone and street addresses. They can't set it up for you either so there's no point in asking


Maybe I am missing something in this thread, but what about a virtual mailbox service (w/US address), and a US configured google voice account?


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## rynd2it

papaia said:


> Maybe I am missing something in this thread, but what about a virtual mailbox service (w/US address), and a US configured google voice account?


One document they asked for is a current electricity bill to confirm the address, had to be less than 90 days old. 
Not possible unless you have a property in the US.


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## Bevdeforges

papaia said:


> Maybe I am missing something in this thread, but what about a virtual mailbox service (w/US address), and a US configured google voice account?


Given that they are supposed to be confirming your identity and other "vitals" they are going to insist on an address and phone number that can be confirmed against an identity document of some variety. I gather this whole id.me system has something to do with identity theft concerns or issues. It's one of the big "gotchas" with the US's system of using the SSN as a tax identification number as they do.


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> Given that they are supposed to be confirming your identity and other "vitals" they are going to insist on an address and phone number that can be confirmed against an identity document of some variety. I gather this whole id.me system has something to do with identity theft concerns or issues. It's one of the big "gotchas" with the US's system of using the SSN as a tax identification number as they do.


The only identity documents with an address that they will accept are a valid driver's license or national ID card - and they will not accept documents that are not in English. You do have to upload an image of a passport but that does not have an address on it.
They have specifically told me that non-US residents cannot use this service and so has the IRS.
We're screwed!


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## Bevdeforges

rynd2it said:


> They have specifically told me that non-US residents cannot use this service and so has the IRS.
> We're screwed!


Have you received one of those letters that they mention in the instructions? (Which would mean, I guess, that someone has attempted to use your SSN for tax purposes.)


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> Have you received one of those letters that they mention in the instructions? (Which would mean, I guess, that someone has attempted to use your SSN for tax purposes.)


I received one much earlier this year as there was a query on my address since moving to France. After a very long conversation I was told to get back to the IRS if I heard nothing from them by December, hence the current round of frustration trying to contact them. Incidentally they told me way back when not to file an amended return as it would slow things down; during the last conversation they asked me why I hadn't filed an amended return and basically they said the first person had misinformed me! So I filed one yesterday.

Like I said, we're screwed


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## Leforgeron

papaia said:


> Can you setup a google voice account in the US, maybe with the help of a friend there, who could provide her US cell number temporarily (the cell number could then be removed from the google account)? Or have someone in the US get a temp ($10) SIM card, plug it in their cell, for a temp cell number, to register the goole voice with it?





JapanAmerica said:


> I just completed this process yesterday. I live in Japan but am on this site because we are planning a move to France next year - I think all these IRS issues are the same wherever you go. In any event, I don't have either a US address or a US phone number, but I was able to complete the process online. For verification, I provided my passport, my SS card (had to get the original out of my safe deposit), a Fidelity account statement that showed my address in Japan (I guess I was lucky to have this), and the dreadful "selfie". I did not have any bank statements or other docs showing my full SS number, as most now show only the final four digits, but that was not a problem. It took a couple of days of back and forth sending them documents until they were happy, but then the video interview with the ID.me person was very quick - I just had to answer a few questions and show my original passport and Social Security card (back and front). It originally went down this rabbit hole because even my accountants were unable to efile my US return. The IRS conducted some sort of identify fraud investigation with respect to one of my returns a few years ago (resolved after I sent them a bunch of documents) and now they think I must have been assigned a PIN. Because they think I have one, the PIN is required to efile. I never actually received a PIN, so I have been trying to sort this out by getting the pin - to do that required an account, which now requires the ID.me verification. Now that I have that, I tried again this morning to request a pin, but that IRS site is down until January 22, so I'm just hoping I'll remember to follow up and get this sorted out before next year's filing deadline. I just sent this year's return by post and it cost me about $50 for registered. I know everyone complains about the French bureaucracy, but after dealing with the Japanese version for twenty years as well as the special hell US institutions create for us expat citizens, I keep thinking "how much worse could it possibly be?"


Thank you; I am trying to sort it out with them now. If you are like me, you will find the french government a refreshing exercise in efficiency.(most of the time)


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## jrh

JapanAmerica said:


> The IRS conducted some sort of identify fraud investigation with respect to one of my returns a few years ago (resolved after I sent them a bunch of documents) and now they think I must have been assigned a PIN. Because they think I have one, the PIN is required to efile. I never actually received a PIN, so I have been trying to sort this out by getting the pin - to do that required an account, which now requires the ID.me verification. Now that I have that, I tried again this morning to request a pin, but that IRS site is down until January 22, so I'm just hoping I'll remember to follow up and get this sorted out before next year's filing deadline. I just sent this year's return by post and it cost me about $50 for registered. I know everyone complains about the French bureaucracy, but after dealing with the Japanese version for twenty years as well as the special hell US institutions create for us expat citizens, I keep thinking "how much worse could it possibly be?"


The PIN number they're wanting is probably the "Self Select PIN" you chose for yourself when you efiled.


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## RayRay

We have used TurboTax for many years (both in the States and here) for our tax prep and filing. Their software made filing as a self-employed person much easier. It cost us $150 a year or so for their Federal and State tax software. 

Now that we're retired, our tax filing requirements are much simpler and we use their free, online tax preparation software. It has pained me that they charge $50 to electronically file our taxes documents with the IRS...it seemed excessive until I read this thread. Now, it seems like a bargain in terms of mental wear and tear <s>. 

Best of luck.

Ray


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## Leforgeron

Leforgeron said:


> Has anyone been able to use this without having a US telephone number? If so, please tell me how you did it


Nothing like replying to your own post, but to close the loop on this. I tries to subscribe to the ID.me service several times, thinking that I might be missing something, but gave up. THEN, a day later I received an email from them, noting that my sign-up was incomplete and directing me to an alternative where the applicant is acually interviewed on a Zoom type system (which keeps you on hold fro a very long time). But that worked and I am now subscibed. It is good to know that I am in fact me.


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## rynd2it

Leforgeron said:


> Nothing like replying to your own post, but to close the loop on this. I tries to subscribe to the ID.me service several times, thinking that I might be missing something, but gave up. THEN, a day later I received an email from them, noting that my sign-up was incomplete and directing me to an alternative where the applicant is acually interviewed on a Zoom type system (which keeps you on hold fro a very long time). But that worked and I am now subscibed. It is good to know that I am in fact me.


I got one of those but it would not let me access the video chat unless I finalised one more document which proved impossible to find one which met their criteria.

I gave up and did it all by phone.


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## cstea

rynd2it said:


> I got one of those but it would not let me access the video chat unless I finalised one more document which proved impossible to find one which met their criteria.
> 
> I gave up and did it all by phone.


Do you mean you contacted the IRS by phone? or the ID.me company? I also was not able to provide a secondary document to their satisfaction, gave up and just called the IRS by phone...


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## rynd2it

cstea said:


> Do you mean you contacted the IRS by phone? or the ID.me company? I also was not able to provide a secondary document to their satisfaction, gave up and just called the IRS by phone...


Both, ID.me told me they are not allowed to register non-US residents so I called the IRS. They confirmed that and also that they could not register me for an online account either.
Welcome to the 21st century!


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## Leforgeron

rynd2it said:


> Both, ID.me told me they are not allowed to register non-US residents so I called the IRS. They confirmed that and also that they could not register me for an online account either.
> Welcome to the 21st century!


Perhaps you are not missing much, because when you try to sign on, you discover that the IRS computers apparently have a union and don't work evenings (US time) and have a reduced schedule on Sundays.


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## noblesse

From the Washington Post this morning

IRS wants to scan your face


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## Bevdeforges

Saw that article in WaPo this morning. This is just plain old creepy IMO. Took a look at the ID.me website and there is more or less nothing (at least nothing I could find) about the registration process - but all the security information they do provide seems to point to this being an US-only set up. (They refer briefly to providing their security service to "people around the world" - but that could be just those with the appropriate US i.d. documents.)

Given the US Government's astounding lack of success in setting up secure websites, plus the usual lack of any alternatives for those with reliable Internet services (or those who simply don't want to use computers or smartphones or other devices), this could be the perfect excuse for those living overseas to just drop the whole idea of filing US taxes. Hm, maybe not such a bad thing after all!


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## Bevdeforges

Just for everyone's info - Yes, I have merged the new thread started today with the older (only 2 months old) on the same subject. Carry on, everyone...


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## papaia

noblesse said:


> From the Washington Post this morning
> 
> IRS wants to scan your face


I see an opportunity for some NFT trading here 😜 ... sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> to just drop the whole idea of filing US taxes


you go first, Bev, and let us know how that works out (full disclosure: ex IRS Revenue Officer, many, many moons ago)...


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> you go first, Bev, and let us know how that works out (full disclosure: ex IRS Revenue Officer, many, many moons ago)...


I renounced - that took care of the issue for good.


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## rynd2it

FYI, having totally given up on trying to create an online account I had to resort to the phone lines. After interminable waits on hold I finally got to talk to some one about the state of my recent returns and in particular the Economic Impact Payments as I had only received the first. The third one, claimed on the 2020 return as a Recovery Rebate had not been processed so the person said "I have requested that be paid today" and I should expect it within a month. I asked how to claim the second payment as that should have gone on my 2019 as Rebate Recovery but they found out the check had been mailed to me in March 2021. As I hadn't received it, they started an investigation and I received a request for information yesterday containing a copy of the _*cashed*_ cheque. It had been sent to my UK address but without a house number or street name but someone had cashed it. Now I wait for the replacement when they finish the investigation, someone somewhere is in trouble!


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## Bevdeforges

And, just after the WaPo posted the article about the ID.me thing, this turned up in their personal finance advice column:


https://wapo.st/3HcGYQu



(Just a note - the link there was set up via the WaPo "gifting" option, so should be available to all.)

In any event, it's ultimately going to be far more "cost effective" to budget the $80 Billion Biden had tried to allocate to the IRS to upgrade their information systems, hire more people and basically get their act together than to continue simply trying to scare taxpayers into complying with all the rules and deadlines. Never mind any sort of attempt to "enforce" the whole overseas taxpayer thing. I'm really shocked there hasn't been any sort of civil disobedience or protest movement (other than the old "laying low and flying beneath the radar" before now.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> I renounced - that took care of the issue for good.


Oh, ok. I didn't know that. I misread your comment as a call to a taxpayer rebellion that might not end well.


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> Oh, ok. I didn't know that. I misread your comment as a call to a taxpayer rebellion that might not end well.


Wasn't "calling for it" - though I admit full well to having wondered for a LONG time (well before I cut the cord myself) why there hasn't been some sort of "action" on all this. As it is, the IRS is so badly underfunded and understaffed that enforcement of overseas stuff is pretty much a lost cause. (Really a shame because the staff they had at the Paris consulate back when were actually pretty helpful and very reasonable to deal with, especially considering how they were only 5 people expected to "serve" something like 45 countries.)


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## papaia

Bevdeforges said:


> Never mind any sort of attempt to "enforce" the whole overseas taxpayer thing. I'm really shocked there hasn't been any sort of civil disobedience or protest movement (other than the old "laying low and flying beneath the radar" before now.


After having lived in my youth under the worst communist regime of Eastern Europe, which still had its uprisings, in spite of the dire consequences (including being kicked out of the country, eventually), then 30+ years in the US, while also watching and even witnessing other countries' (and now directly the French) civic events/unrests unfolding, I could tell you right now that the US citizens are the least likely to "revolt" against anything (looting the Capitol or some cities here and there does not qualify as a mechanism of purpose driven protest). They like their panem et circenses more than any other nation I've known.


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## Bevdeforges

papaia said:


> I could tell you right now that the US citizens are the least likely to "revolt" against anything (looting the Capitol or some cities here and there does not qualify as a mechanism of purpose driven protest).


Yeah, I've come to that same conclusion. I just recall the anti-Vietnam War demonstrations of my youth in the US. But I guess those kind of subsided after Kent State showed that protesting could have fatal consequences. Easier to just evade taxes over there (especially with the state of the IRS) than to run the risk of armed resistance.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> I renounced - that took care of the issue for good.


Did you ever write up what/how you did this here or elsewhere? I may eventually come to the same conclusion and do something about it when I have time.


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> Did you ever write up what/how you did this here or elsewhere? I may eventually come to the same conclusion and do something about it when I have time.


No, there's not a lot to write up. And, since I managed to get in before the pandemic hit, I'm sure the procedure I went through is different these days. Best "advice" I can give is to check the website of the US Embassy in Paris. To be perfectly honest about it, it was a very simple process (other than having to come up with the $2350 fee - which is non-negotiable). I just followed the procedure outlined on the website - basically you have to call them, submit some forms, and then set up an appointment to go in to "do the deed" in person. Everyone I dealt with was very courteous, no one tried to "talk me out of it" and you don't have to give your reasons unless you wish to submit a written statement explaining your motivation. If you're on US SS, you need to contact the SS office at the Consulate and take an appointment just after your renunciation formalities. Not sure if it's just the Paris Consulate, but it was as easy as can be.


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> No, there's not a lot to write up. And, since I managed to get in before the pandemic hit, I'm sure the procedure I went through is different these days. Best "advice" I can give is to check the website of the US Embassy in Paris. To be perfectly honest about it, it was a very simple process (other than having to come up with the $2350 fee - which is non-negotiable). I just followed the procedure outlined on the website - basically you have to call them, submit some forms, and then set up an appointment to go in to "do the deed" in person. Everyone I dealt with was very courteous, no one tried to "talk me out of it" and you don't have to give your reasons unless you wish to submit a written statement explaining your motivation. If you're on US SS, you need to contact the SS office at the Consulate and take an appointment just after your renunciation formalities. Not sure if it's just the Paris Consulate, but it was as easy as can be.


When my brother applied after moving to Canada, they told him they could/might assess him on the taxes he would have paid in the future and levy a charge as well as the fees. He walked away 😉


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## Bevdeforges

rynd2it said:


> When my brother applied after moving to Canada, they told him they could/might assess him on the taxes he would have paid in the future and levy a charge as well as the fees. He walked away 😉


Ah yes, the Canadian consulates seem to be somewhat "hostile" toward renunciation candidates. There has also been a long wait to be able to schedule the necessary appointments at the consulate (two, in the case of the Canadian consulates - it was only the one, plus a sort of "telephone interview" for the Paris consulate).

Any tax issues related to renunciation are part of the "final tax filing" and handled strictly between the individual and the IRS. Basically, take a look at form 8854 - though some significant portion of those who renounce just ignore that final tax filing. This is the IRS' take on the matter:




__





Expatriation Tax | Internal Revenue Service


The expatriation tax provisions apply to U.S. citizens who have renounced their citizenship and long-term residents who have ended their residency, if one of the principal purposes of the action is the avoidance of U.S. taxes.




www.irs.gov




But nowhere in the renunciation procedure at the consulate do they ask you to declare, swear or otherwise affirm that you are "up to date" on your US taxes. They only ask you to affirm that you understand that renouncing doesn't necessarily relieve you of your tax obligation.


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## Nunthewiser

I wasn't so much interested in the procedural aspects as the put and takes to it. What does one gain/lose in the divorce? For example, I owe uncle a boatload of IRA/401k money, and he owes me Social Security. How do I figure out if cutting the cord is advantageous to me? By residing in France, not being a US citizen, I lose the tax treaty, so now I am paying French rates. My wife is US only (for now) so she is stuck, how do you figure out the effects of that. My head's going to explode even thinking about thinking about that.


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> By residing in France, not being a US citizen, I lose the tax treaty, so now I am paying French rates. My wife is US only (for now) so she is stuck, how do you figure out the effects of that. My head's going to explode even thinking about thinking about that.


I think you have been misinformed on that aspect. You don't "lose" the tax treaty - certainly not for most things. Back before I renounced, I signed my husband up for the spouse benefit based on my US SS. He has been withheld as an NRA since the start. I was filing as married, filing separately, so didn't pay any US income tax on my SS - and we still get the same "tax credit at French tax rates" on the amounts involved. Since I renounced, we both have tax withheld on our respective US SS payments - at 30% on 85% of the benefit.

Your wife would continue to file as married, filing separately on just her own income, from whatever sources.



Nunthewiser said:


> how do you figure out the effects of that. My head's going to explode even thinking about thinking about that.


Depends on what you are looking to achieve. As a strict dollars and cents thing, it's a very complicated calculation - especially if you have been paying someone to do your US taxes for you. You will pay more tax to the US (most likely) since the NRA rate is a flat 30% on most US source income. And, if you have significant US based financial assets, you may wind up having to continue to pay a tax preparer if you're not able or willing to do your own taxes.

However, what value do you place on all the time you spend either worrying about your US based financial assets or fretting about the foreign/French assets you can't take advantage of? There is a price you pay for peace of mind. I know one thing I did after renouncing was to finally open up an assurance vie account for myself here to start transferring my IRA balance over here and eliminate my exposure to exchange rate fluctuations. It's really a matter of deciding why you think you might want to renounce not how much you "might" save.


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> He has been withheld as an NRA since the start.


Quick aside Bev, did you get an ITIN for your husband as there appears to be some confusion about filing jointly using NRA as the social security code.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> Depends on what you are looking to achieve. As a strict dollars and cents thing, it's a very complicated calculation - especially if you have been paying someone to do your US taxes for you. You will pay more tax to the US (most likely) since the NRA rate is a flat 30% on most US source income. And, if you have significant US based financial assets, you may wind up having to continue to pay a tax preparer if you're not able or willing to do your own taxes.


I can imagine that is is complicated. I have been doing my own taxes, at first, on paper (as I mentioned upthread, I was, briefly , an IRS RO, ) and now with software. I don't find it challenging, but then, it's the same thing every year. I haven't run into RMDs and not drawing SS yet, either. I am willing to pay for peace of mind- that's why I am largely out of the market. But I don't know what all the known unknowns, or whatever it is, ahead in France yet.


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## Bevdeforges

rynd2it said:


> Quick aside Bev, did you get an ITIN for your husband as there appears to be some confusion about filing jointly using NRA as the social security code.


The SS guy at the consulate said that my husband would get a SS number as part of being signed up for the spouse benefit. It's definitely NOT an ITIN (I guess because it's a "permanent" number not subject to renewal - he even got a Medicare card in the deal) - but an NRA with no other US source income has no US tax filing obligation. We have never filed jointly because that's a really bad idea for a US citizen married to an NRA (if the NRA has any significant income at all - puts that all in play for US tax purposes, and it's a really bad idea where the NRA is the primary breadwinner in the family). As always, your mileage may vary.

There are "problems" filing "married, filing separately" electronically if you just put NRA in the space for spouse's SSN - but since DH got his official SSN, I used that instead and at least it allowed me to e-file without difficulty. Before that I always had to file on paper because then you can put NRA for both spouse's name and spouse's SSN. Score another big one for the IRS's shoddy computer systems.


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## Chrissippus

rynd2it said:


> Both, ID.me told me they are not allowed to register non-US residents so I called the IRS. They confirmed that and also that they could not register me for an online account either.
> Welcome to the 21st century!


That's not true. My wife registered with Id.me from here in Thailand and uses it to access here SSA account.


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## rynd2it

Chrissippus said:


> That's not true. My wife registered with Id.me from here in Thailand and uses it to access here SSA account.


Then she must have had relevant documents to register with US addresses, like a bank account or utility bills.


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## Bevdeforges

Is My Social Security requiring the use of ID.me these days? Last time I looked, the only real stumbling block was the need for a US mailing address (though no indication of what, exactly, they were intending on mailing to you at that address).


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## Steve2022

Leforgeron said:


> Nothing like replying to your own post, but to close the loop on this. I tries to subscribe to the ID.me service several times, thinking that I might be missing something, but gave up. THEN, a day later I received an email from them, noting that my sign-up was incomplete and directing me to an alternative where the applicant is acually interviewed on a Zoom type system (which keeps you on hold fro a very long time). But that worked and I am now subscibed. It is good to know that I am in fact me.


Thanks for posting about this issue with your ID.me access. It helped me to persevere, and I have also now been verified over a video call with an ID.me employee. Once all the documents were in place, it took less than 15 minutes.


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## danopia

papaia said:


> Maybe I am missing something in this thread, but what about a virtual mailbox service (w/US address), and a US configured google voice account?


Just noting here from experience, that when ID.me asks for specifically a 10-digit US phone number, it's to "verify your identity with telecom operators" and I did not have success with using a Google Voice number for that option. I had the same experience in previous years before ID.me, when IRS did the verification process themselves. I haven't tried any sort of burner number but the process seems to want to see a standard US phone line with the correct name attached to it.

The other option of uploading random documents until they pass and then taking a video call is still available as discussed in this thread. It's just a right pain to get the correct documents in English if you're in a non-English country!


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## papaia

danopia said:


> Just noting here from experience, that when ID.me asks for specifically a 10-digit US phone number...


Not sure all this ID.me is worth discussing, considering...


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## tardigrade

Here is a good explanation for those who *sadly* want to denounce their citizenship. 



https://sports.yahoo.com/eileen-gu-and-the-repercussions-of-renouncing-us-citizenship-123345918.html


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## Bevdeforges

Interesting article, but I think some parts of it have been "overly simplified" and from all indications, Eileen Gu probably got a "sweet deal" from the Chinese so that she didn't have to renounce her US citizenship. For one, you can't just show up at a US Consulate to renounce - you need to book an appointment, and many Consulates around the world have not been taking appointments for renunciation since the beginnings of the pandemic. Some consulates require two separate in person appointments - others just a phone interview before the actual "do the deed" appointment. 

Actually, the consulates are still posting this notice on their websites: 
*Due to COVID-19, renunciation services have been suspended world-wide until further notice. We apologize for the inconvenience.*

Not that something couldn't be arranged for a star athlete. But it's far more likely that China would back off their requirement (like they did for the hockey player mentioned at the end of your article). They want to make a good showing at the Olympics they are hosting.


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## tardigrade

I do not want to get in an online fight or be banned discussing traitors to their nations of birth so I am out.


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## tardigrade

papaia said:


> Not sure all this ID.me is worth discussing, considering...


Maybe from that/this decision this topic should be closed.


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## Bellthorpe

tardigrade said:


> I do not want to get in an online fight or be banned discussing traitors to their nations of birth so I am out.


The problem is that you do not understand what 'traitor' means.


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## Bellthorpe

I have been trying to use id.me for the last few days, uploading scores of documents that fail, and getting very frustrated with the entire process. I'm stuck on an asinine, ludicrous barrier. Proving my address. I've tried electricity bill, phone bill, tax return, others. I've spend the most time trying a bank statement, as it's the simplest form, and anyone can see what it is. 

This is the last response I got:



> Document must be in English, or contain an English translation of field labels (e.g. “Nombre / Name”). Ask for an english version of the monthly Bank statement. The bank has to have the form in english for you. Thank you.


“*The bank has to have the form in English for you*” Huh ? No they don’t. They’re a French bank. They don’t have *any* forms in English. Why would they ? My doctor can’t speak English, she can’t generate an English bill. My utility bills are in French, my bank statement is in French. 

I have a support ticket in. Apparently that can take weeks. 

Why am I doing this ? Because I got a bogus bill from the IRS ...


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## rynd2it

Bellthorpe said:


> I have been trying to use id.me for the last few days, uploading scores of documents that fail, and getting very frustrated with the entire process. I'm stuck on an asinine, ludicrous barrier. Proving my address. I've tried electricity bill, phone bill, tax return, others. I've spend the most time trying a bank statement, as it's the simplest form, and anyone can see what it is.
> 
> This is the last response I got:
> 
> 
> 
> “*The bank has to have the form in English for you*” Huh ? No they don’t. They’re a French bank. They don’t have *any* forms in English. Why would they ? My doctor can’t speak English, she can’t generate an English bill. My utility bills are in French, my bank statement is in French.
> 
> I have a support ticket in. Apparently that can take weeks.
> 
> Why am I doing this ? Because I got a bogus bill from the IRS ...


The ID.me site is virtually impossible to use if you live outside the US. I contacted them by phone and was told that they are not allowed (by the IRS) to ID people living outside the US. You do need the forms etc in English, they need proof of residence (bills etc) less than three months old and so on.
Personally I gave up and contacted them by phone - I managed to find someone really helpful and got my issues sorted out.


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## Bellthorpe

rynd2it said:


> I contacted them by phone and was told that they are not allowed (by the IRS) to ID people living outside the US.


Interesting. That's essentially the IRS saying 'you can't use any of our online features if you live outside the US'.

Naturally they need proof of address, but they are being absolutely stupid about not accepting a foreign bank statement. My wife tried to use her French Amex statement, which is in English, but they rejected it without saying why. 

The other beef I have with id.me is the merchandising. If you do a 'cold' login, it's almost impossible to find services such as the IRS, in amongst all the advertising. That shouldn't be the case when they're performing government services.


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## rynd2it

Bellthorpe said:


> Interesting. That's essentially the IRS saying 'you can't use any of our online features if you live outside the US'.


Exactly. I was told that by the IRS in person, even they could not create online access for me.


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## Bellthorpe

Well not long after sending my last post, I sent yet another strongly worded follow-up to my support ticket. Instantly I received an email saying that all my documents were satisfactory, keep the originals to hand and click a link for a video meeting. The list however no longer had proof of address. Just my social security card and my (non-US) passport. 

A short wait, a video interview in which I had to put those documents up to the camera, and I now have IRS access !

My wife is submitting her support ticket, copied from mine, now.


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## rynd2it

Bellthorpe said:


> Well not long after sending my last post, I sent yet another strongly worded follow-up to my support ticket. Instantly I received an email saying that all my documents were satisfactory, keep the originals to hand and click a link for a video meeting. The list however no longer had proof of address. Just my social security card and my (non-US) passport.
> 
> A short wait, a video interview in which I had to put those documents up to the camera, and I now have IRS access !
> 
> My wife is submitting her support ticket, copied from mine, now.


Interesting!


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## Kyndrill

Bellthorpe said:


> Well not long after sending my last post, I sent yet another strongly worded follow-up to my support ticket. Instantly I received an email saying that all my documents were satisfactory, keep the originals to hand and click a link for a video meeting. The list however no longer had proof of address. Just my social security card and my (non-US) passport.
> 
> A short wait, a video interview in which I had to put those documents up to the camera, and I now have IRS access !
> 
> My wife is submitting her support ticket, copied from mine, now.


Great news! Did it work for your wife, too?

I’ve been going back and forth with them for days. I live in Japan and even though I have two primary documents (passport and residence card) they insist I need a secondary one but won’t accept one in Japanese, but obviously I don’t have any in English. I have a lot of things I’d like to say to them, but wonder if something in your message contained the magic words they need. If it’s not too much trouble I’d greatly appreciate knowing what you said to them!


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## JapanAmerica

Kyndrill said:


> Great news! Did it work for your wife, too?
> 
> I’ve been going back and forth with them for days. I live in Japan and even though I have two primary documents (passport and residence card) they insist I need a secondary one but won’t accept one in Japanese, but obviously I don’t have any in English. I have a lot of things I’d like to say to them, but wonder if something in your message contained the magic words they need. If it’s not too much trouble I’d greatly appreciate knowing what you said to them!


I live in Japan and I was able to get through this process earlier in the year. I used my passport and a bank statement. Maybe I was lucky, but my Japanese bank addresses my statements to me in English, including my name and my address in Japan. I went through all my bank statements and utility bills looking for something that might work.


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## Kyndrill

JapanAmerica said:


> I live in Japan and I was able to get through this process earlier in the year. I used my passport and a bank statement. Maybe I was lucky, but my Japanese bank addresses my statements to me in English, including my name and my address in Japan. I went through all my bank statements and utility bills looking for something that might work.


Thanks for your reply! I will look through all my papers; I hadn’t thought to look at bank statements… I’m pretty sure they’re all in Japanese, but I might be able to find something!


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## Eliora

Our US bank people are fixing it for us. It helps to have kept those ties. We think about moving back often. I was really grateful for the checks we got over the Covid years.


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## Kyndrill

Just an update! I exchanged so many emails with their customer service. Even though they acknowledged that I only needed two forms of primary ID and that my passport and Japanese residence card would suffice, the system would automatically reject my application if I didn't have a secondary ID which could confirm my address in English. After I finally provided a payslip with my address in English, the system allowed me to proceed to the video interview where they only made me show my passport and residence card. Everyone I interacted with was polite and seemed to be trying to be helpful, but the fact that they couldn't get the system to just skip the secondary ID requirement, and that the water bill I kept trying (with address only in Japanese) would make the whole thing get rejected, just seemed bonkers. They would say that a written translation provided alongside the ID would work, and while that didn't work for the water bill it did seem to work for the national ID. It was a harrowing experience but finally over!!


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## dennism8

And what if you don't have the actual SSN card in possession? I haven't had that for 55 years. IRS, SSA have my Social Security number. Why can't ID.me somehow tie them together to satisfy this requirement. So am I do apply for an actual SSN card first and wait several months before I get it in order to proceed with this ridiculous, unconscionable process? This is a friggin' joke - the way they treat ex-pats, most of us still fulfilling our tax obligations to our illustrious bureaucracy, is terrible.


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## Bevdeforges

I don't think I ever had to produce my actual SS card when I applied for benefits. But if you don't have your card, contact the FBU at whatever consulate handles your SS stuff and ask for a replacement card. The US has never been known for dealing effectively or efficiently with the needs of their expat population - but generally speaking the FBU folks at the Embassy are a whole bunch more sympathetic and easy to deal with than anyone back in the USSA these days.


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## Chrissippus

dennism8 said:


> And what if you don't have the actual SSN card in possession? I haven't had that for 55 years. IRS, SSA have my Social Security number. Why can't ID.me somehow tie them together to satisfy this requirement. So am I do apply for an actual SSN card first and wait several months before I get it in order to proceed with this ridiculous, unconscionable process? This is a friggin' joke - the way they treat ex-pats, most of us still fulfilling our tax obligations to our illustrious bureaucracy, is terrible.


My wife went through the ID.me authentication procedure. It didn't seem excessive to me particularly since they are protecting our SS benefits, which for many people is their single largest asset.


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## wheelercmd

So I have been having issues accessing the IRS id.me page to register while in Cyprus. Never used their system and they are not very knowledgable when it comes to expats abroad. I emailed them, called them and the answer I would get is to contact my internet provider. 
Heads-up: its not my ISP because I travelled throughout Europe and I was unable to register while visiting any EU country. 

Update: I had a trip to the US and was able to register while there. All ok and had access to their website. I tried to log in today while in EU again and their site states: "
*Access Denied*
You don't have permission to access "http://api.id.me/oauth/authorize?" on this server.
Reference #18.58f01002.1672845310.b4155703 ". 

I simply gave up and I know they are not allowing us to log in from abroad. Got the message IRS, thanks for the assistance! More like thanks for nothing!!


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