# Query re moving



## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

I know nobody has got a crystal ball re Brexit etc but I would really appreciate some advice.

We have received an offer on our house today, so on one hand I'm thrilled but on the other hand I'm wondering if we're making a big mistake? We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we may have to pay for our own healthcare forever so that's not the most pressing issue but I'm really worried that all the UK government seem concerned about is the rights of EU citizens in the UK-nothing is ever said about UK citizens in the EU!

What are the chances (hopefully we'll have residencia by then) that come 2019, Spain would kick us out?

Thanks a lot


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## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

I cannot see any reason why We residents should use our healthcare.It is a reciprocal arrangement,nothing to do with ‘brexit’.Give people something to panic about and the queue forms.


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## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

‘Lose our healthcare’ oops!


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## trotter58 (Feb 8, 2017)

infomaniac said:


> I know nobody has got a crystal ball re Brexit etc but I would really appreciate some advice.
> 
> We have received an offer on our house today, so on one hand I'm thrilled but on the other hand I'm wondering if we're making a big mistake? We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we may have to pay for our own healthcare forever so that's not the most pressing issue but I'm really worried that all the UK government seem concerned about is the rights of EU citizens in the UK-nothing is ever said about UK citizens in the EU!
> 
> ...


Seriously! You're selling your house because of Brexit? 

Do you really want to go back and live in the UK? 

EU citizen/ UK citizen rights will be reciprocated. Spain needs the UK Expats as much as we expats need Spain 

I've heard of some crazy knee jerk reactions.......but selling your house! 

The Spanish construction industry is starting up again and the property prices will start to creep up. Once you add in the 20% cost of buying & selling you must really have another reason, rather than brexit, if you're selling now. 

BTW good luck with the sale.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

trotter58 said:


> Seriously! You're selling your house because of Brexit?
> 
> Do you really want to go back and live in the UK?
> 
> ...


c

I think he's selling his his in the UK and moving to Spain !


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

infomaniac said:


> I know nobody has got a crystal ball re Brexit etc but I would really appreciate some advice.
> 
> What are the chances (hopefully we'll have residencia by then) that come 2019, Spain would kick us out?
> 
> Thanks a lot


Close to zero.


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## trotter58 (Feb 8, 2017)

Megsmum said:


> c
> 
> I think he's selling his his in the UK and moving to Spain !


Doh! Sorry, that wasn't immediately obvious. the "originally from UK. Expat in Spain" at the top fooled me 

In that case.....No worries! Get yourself over here! 
We bought about 18 months ago and haven't regretted a moment since.

p.s a couple of points from my previous post are still pertinent though.


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

I'm happy we got that sorted out Trotter! You have cheered me up anyway - seems I'm panicking unnecessarily. Glad you're enjoying Spain so much too


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spain will not kick you out. But you will lose the rights that apply as a result of being an EU citizen, e.g. being able to vote in municipal elections.

As long as you are prepared to pay for your own healthcare and can cope with the value of sterling continuing to fall against the euro, you'll be fine.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Spain will not kick you out. But you will lose the rights that apply as a result of being an EU citizen, e.g. being able to vote in municipal elections.
> 
> As long as you are prepared to pay for your own healthcare and can cope with the value of sterling continuing to fall against the euro, you'll be fine.



As yet we do not know that the UK Government will stop paying for healthcare of retired UK residents in Spain.
Considering the age of most British immigrants here and their likely age-related health issues any Government might hesitate before encouraging an exodus of elderly immigrants back to the UK, considering the parlous state of the NHS.

Mrs.May should take a trip to our local Gabinete Geriatrico.


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

The way things are going, I´d be surprised if anything changed for ex-pats...because the EU are really digging their heels in, and are refusing to negotiate - that´s their tactic, so that other countries don´t leave. I can see another referendum on the cards, and so it might be years before anything actually changes. 

IF we do actually leave - and that becomes less likely by the day- nothing will really change for us. Reciprocal deals will be done between countries protecting the rights of citizens. 

We bring a lot to Spain, what with our pensions, and housing investments, and tourism (we were the biggest group of tourists this summer) We came here before Spain was in the EU, and will continue if the UK leaves.

So I would say "GO FOR IT" before the pound completely crashes through the floor. The future for the UK looks bleak.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

:smow:


danboy20 said:


> The way things are going, I´d be surprised if anything changed for ex-pats...because the EU are really digging their heels in, and are refusing to negotiate - that´s their tactic, so that other countries don´t leave. I can see another referendum on the cards, and so it might be years before anything actually changes.
> 
> IF we do actually leave - and that becomes less likely by the day- nothing will really change for us. Reciprocal deals will be done between countries protecting the rights of citizens.
> 
> ...


You could be right but you would say that wouldn't you with a link on to property sales in Calahonda. If ones income comes from UK and the pound completely crashes they still have to live and pay taxes.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> As yet we do not know that the UK Government will stop paying for healthcare of retired UK residents in Spain.
> Considering the age of most British immigrants here and their likely age-related health issues any Government might hesitate before encouraging an exodus of elderly immigrants back to the UK, considering the parlous state of the NHS.
> 
> Mrs.May should take a trip to our local Gabinete Geriatrico.


No, we don't know - but they have indicated unofficially they will keep paying for those of us who already get it.

I doubt they will extend the offer to new claimants though. So better for future retirees to be prepared and maybe get a nice surprise than be caught short.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Spain will not kick you out. But you will lose the rights that apply as a result of being an EU citizen, e.g. being able to vote in municipal elections.
> 
> As long as you are prepared to pay for your own healthcare and can cope with the value of sterling continuing to fall against the euro, you'll be fine.





mrypg9 said:


> As yet we do not know that the UK Government will stop paying for healthcare of retired UK residents in Spain.
> Considering the age of most British immigrants here and their likely age-related health issues any Government might hesitate before encouraging an exodus of elderly immigrants back to the UK, considering the parlous state of the NHS.
> 
> Mrs.May should take a trip to our local Gabinete Geriatrico.


 But we don't know about future healthcare rights if not in receipt of pension.... big worry for many.

However to the OP. If I'm honest, there will always be doubts and worries, in the end you know what you are comfortable with. Brexit is important but I would worry more about the exchange rate, if dependent on sterling. There are lots who struggled post the crisis, because of falling exchange rates. My advice, for what it's worth, think of all costs as being parity with each other, be prepared for the worst and then get on with life...... you are a long time dead


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

My opinion has nothing to do with my business....I live here as well!!

Business wise, it´s never been better with Brits coming over. 

You can either be poor in the UK, or poor in Spain - I know which one I´d go for. 

Personally, I would try to get the best rate in sterling for my house, and come over asap, because it will only get lower!! That´s not one estate agents´s view - that´s the view of economic experts!!


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

Isobella said:


> :smow:
> 
> You could be right but you would say that wouldn't you with a link on to property sales in Calahonda. If ones income comes from UK and the pound completely crashes they still have to live and pay taxes.


My opinion has nothing to do with my business....I live here as well!!

Business wise, it´s never been better with Brits coming over. 

You can either be poor in the UK, or poor in Spain - I know which one I´d go for. 

Personally, I would try to get the best rate in sterling for my house, and come over asap, because it will only get lower!! That´s not one estate agents´s view - that´s the view of economic experts!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

danboy20 said:


> The way things are going, I´d be surprised if anything changed for ex-pats...because the EU are really digging their heels in, and are refusing to negotiate - that´s their tactic, so that other countries don´t leave. I can see another referendum on the cards, and so it might be years before anything actually changes.
> 
> IF we do actually leave - and that becomes less likely by the day- nothing will really change for us. Reciprocal deals will be done between countries protecting the rights of citizens.
> 
> ...



Agree and disagree. I think you exaggerate the degree to which Spain depends on British immigrants. Most of us here are not wealthy - the truly rich go elsewhere - and the real or imagined worries over Brexit will surely lead to a decline in new UK arrivals of any age. The future could be Scandinavian.

I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that the EU are 'refusing to negotiate'. As yet the UK Government and its sorry team have failed to engage in any meaningful negotiations. The UK is leaving the EU, not vice-versa. Ball in the UK's court. As yet there have been no serious moves to exit the EU in any member state. Remember that before the UK Referendum it was scarcely the talk of every pub and dinner table in the UK.

I do believe that as time passes there could well be another Referendum as there surely should be if the Government ever gets round to putting forward a concrete well-thought out plan for our post EU future . But I think you are wrong in assuming that if the UK leaves nothing will change for UK immigrants resident in EU member states and the OP is right to be cautious.
For one thing, reciprocal 'free' health care may be discontinued (as I said I think that's unlikely) and if so private care or even the Convenio Especial may break the budgets of some retired immigrants, especially with the impact of the drop in £sterling.
Requirements for residence may be more strictly enforced as may the ninety day rule and all those immigrants living 'under the radar' , with UK plated cars and their tax evasion, may be in for a shock. Of course tourism and travel generally will continue -you can visit Iran and Iraq these days - but there will be an end to cruising through the EU Citizens channel with zero passport check. After all, the UK will be ex-EU and out of Schengen.

For most these will be minor conveniences. Life will go on. But anyone thinking of living in Spain would be foolish not to plan for the worst possible outcomes.
I think you are a tad too gung-ho...but I guess you need to be in your trade.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

danboy20 said:


> My opinion has nothing to do with my business....I live here as well!!
> 
> Business wise, it´s never been better with Brits coming over.
> 
> ...


I wonder if you are aware of what it would actually mean for a British immigrant to be poor here in Spain, especially for retired folk.
No Housing Benefit, Pension or Income Supplement, Working Family Tax Credit, Winter Fuel Allowance, generous Sick Pay and Disability Allowances or other UK benefits in Spain.
Do you actually know any poor Spanish families, I wonder? Do you know how many people live here with no assistance whatsoever from the local regional or national state?
But as you say, you have an estate agent's point of view.
How long before the next asset bubble crash, would you say?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It may be informative to read the post from the unfortunate American lady who has been refused insurance cover because of a pre-existing condition.


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

mrypg9 said:


> I wonder if you are aware of what it would actually mean for a British immigrant to be poor here in Spain, especially for retired folk.
> No Housing Benefit, Pension or Income Supplement, Working Family Tax Credit, Winter Fuel Allowance, generous Sick Pay and Disability Allowances or other UK benefits in Spain.
> Do you actually know any poor Spanish families, I wonder? Do you know how many people live here with no assistance whatsoever from the local regional or national state?
> But as you say, you have an estate agent's point of view.
> How long before the next asset bubble crash, would you say?


Take your bitterness elsewhere....if you can't listen to other people's OPINIONS without replying in a condescending way, then don't bother replying. 

The issues you have mentioned are worth thinking about regardless of Brexit. If you can't afford to move here, then you can't afford to move here. 

Sometimes people just need to go for things in life, because there will always be people like you to persuade them to play safe.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

danboy20 said:


> Take your bitterness elsewhere....if you can't listen to other people's OPINIONS, then don't bother replying.
> 
> Sometimes people just need to go for things in life, because there will always be people like you to persuade them to play safe.


And others keen to part them from their life savings for personal gain.


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> And others keen to part them from their life savings for personal gain.




I suppose you are referring to something called 'Buying a house?´  

Myself individually or the company I work for aren´t benefiting one jot by giving out some advice...MY OWN OPINION. If I was in the UK now, and had ideas on leaving, I WOULD LEAVE IMMEDIATELY!!! The country is in for some seriously hard times - IN MY OPINION.

You are really belittling the OP by suggesting they aren´t old or wise enough to make their own decisions. 

Nobody is holding a gun to their head!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

danboy20 said:


> I suppose you are referring to something called 'Buying a house?´
> 
> Myself individually or the company I work for aren´t benefiting one jot by giving out some advice.
> 
> ...


I've just sold a house here and bought another property in the same town, so obviously I have no misgivings about being able to stay resident in Spain post Brexit -but we have been here for longer than 5 years and have permanent residency status, plus private medical insurance which we can afford to keep paying for if it proves necessary (in addition to treatment within the Spanish state system via S1s).

If, however, I were in the OP's position I really think I would prefer to wait and see what actually happens regarding the Brexit negotiations and any other reciprocal agreements before taking the plunge. It is, as has been confirmed to me after going through the process myself, a very expensive process to buy a property in Spain and then sell it (although we were lucky in that ours proved very easy to sell, unlike others I know of which have been on the market for years) because of the transfer tax, legal and notary fees on purchases, then on selling plus valia, in our case 5% commission to the estate agent, notary fees and if you were extremely lucky, a potential capital gains tax liability. Therefore, I'd want cast iron guarantees which just aren't there at the moment that if I bought a property as a new resident I could definitely live in it long term without complications.

I am only too well aware of just how optimistic a picture estate agents, both Spanish and British (and probably all other nationalities too) tend to paint about buying property (the pitfalls either aren't mentioned at all, or glossed over as trivial), and if I were looking for advice I'd look in the direction of people who don't have a vested interest.

I do, actually, share your misgivings about the future prospects of the UK, but we don't know how well placed the OP may be to weather the economic hardships that we suspect may lie ahead - if they own their home outright and no longer need a job there will be many people much worse off than they are.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

danboy20 said:


> I suppose you are referring to something called 'Buying a house?´
> 
> Myself individually or the company I work for aren´t benefiting one jot by giving out some advice...MY OWN OPINION. If I was in the UK now, and had ideas on leaving, I WOULD LEAVE IMMEDIATELY!!! The country is in for some seriously hard times - IN MY OPINION.
> 
> ...


No one has said that anyone isn't wise enough, they are just giving advice. Most love Spain but have common sense. If poor then a sterling crash would make them even poorer in Spain. If someone wants to move the best to do at the moment is to rent first and wait for the dust to settle.

I assume if you are in Spain in the business of selling property then a fall in sterling would not affect you as your income is in Euros.


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> I've just sold a house here and bought another property in the same town, so obviously I have no misgivings about being able to stay resident in Spain post Brexit -but we have been here for longer than 5 years and have permanent residency status, plus private medical insurance which we can afford to keep paying for if it proves necessary (in addition to treatment within the Spanish state system via S1s).
> 
> If, however, I were in the OP's position I really think I would prefer to wait and see what actually happens regarding the Brexit negotiations and any other reciprocal agreements before taking the plunge. It is, as has been confirmed to me after going through the process myself, a very expensive process to buy a property in Spain and then sell it (although we were lucky in that ours proved very easy to sell, unlike others I know of which have been on the market for years) because of the transfer tax, legal and notary fees on purchases, then on selling plus valia, in our case 5% commission to the estate agent, notary fees and if you were extremely lucky, a potential capital gains tax liability. Therefore, I'd want cast iron guarantees which just aren't there at the moment that if I bought a property as a new resident I could definitely live in it long term without complications.
> 
> I am only too well aware of just how optimistic a picture estate agents, both Spanish and British (and probably all other nationalities too) tend to paint about buying property (the pitfalls either aren't mentioned at all, or glossed over as trivial), and if I were looking for advice I'd look in the direction of people who don't have a vested interest.


´Cast iron guarantees´ don´t really exist in life anyway. We could go to war with Spain over Gibraltar tomorrow, and be ejected for that reason!! 

I´m not sure what you would like Estate Agents to advise their clients? 

Give them a full 10 year chart of currency fluctuations? 

Maybe background information on the Maastricht Treaty? 

Maybe the opinions of 80 different lawyers? 

When you buy a car, does the dealer tell you the hazards of driving? 

People come to us to find them a house at the best possible price; it is their own personal decision. I can´t think of any clients we´ve had, that hadn´t already made their own minds up to look to buy in Spain - whether to live here permanently, or as a holiday home. 


Let´s ask every poster on this forum if they have an occupation in anyway connected with the thread subject - after all they must have a vested interest, or why would they be replying?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

danboy20 said:


> ´
> Let´s ask every poster on this forum if they have an occupation in anyway connected with the thread subject - after all they must have a vested interest, or why would they be replying?


A vested interest, to me, means being in a position to make money out of a situation. Those of us who live here but have an occupation which would not give us a financial benefit if more British people were encouraged to move to or buy property in Spain a the present time (or like me, no occupation at all) can't be said to have a vested interest. We like to pass on information we've gleaned over the years to help people who are in the position we were all in at one time, and if asked for advice will offer an opinion about what, in our view, would be the most sensible option but of course, ultimately it is the enquirer themselves who must make the decision about what is best for them.

And no, we can't ever rule out things changing in the future - but we can't ignore the turmoil that is currently under our noses and which brings with it a higher than average degree of risk for anybody contemplating an overseas move at this time.


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## Gran Erry-Bredd (Nov 1, 2016)

I think the term "vested interests" would probably apply to the chap, on another thread, requesting advice on where to buy cheap t-shirts.


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

We've waited over 10 years for the time to be right for us to move to Spain so I am a bit disgruntled that everything is going pear-shaped now!!

The worst that can happen for us, as far as I can see, is us buying a house then getting kicked out, which as most of you have said, is very unlikely. We are resigned to the fact that the UK may decide not to fund our healthcare and if the exchange rate plummets we have savings that hopefully will tide us over till the dust settles.

Neither of us are risk takers but on this occasion I feel we have to go for it and pray for the best. If we were younger we would stay put and see what happens but time is ticking away and I think we should "seize the day" while we still can. Wish us luck!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

danboy20 said:


> Take your bitterness elsewhere....if you can't listen to other people's OPINIONS without replying in a condescending way, then don't bother replying.
> 
> The issues you have mentioned are worth thinking about regardless of Brexit. If you can't afford to move here, then you can't afford to move here.
> 
> Sometimes people just need to go for things in life, because there will always be people like you to persuade them to play safe.


 There is a need for people to urge thought and caution.
There is no ' bitterness' neither is there 'condescension' in my post but there is arrogance and incivility in your reply to my post and those of others.
Telling people to 'just go for things' can be good or bad advice depending on many factors. There are indeed special factors relevant to Brexit, health care being the most important.
You too need to listen to other people's views. Moving to Spain is a serious matter that should not be based on the state of the property market.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

infomaniac said:


> We've waited over 10 years for the time to be right for us to move to Spain so I am a bit disgruntled that everything is going pear-shaped now!!
> 
> The worst that can happen for us, as far as I can see, is us buying a house then getting kicked out, which as most of you have said, is very unlikely. We are resigned to the fact that the UK may decide not to fund our healthcare and if the exchange rate plummets we have savings that hopefully will tide us over till the dust settles.
> 
> Neither of us are risk takers but on this occasion I feel we have to go for it and pray for the best. If we were younger we would stay put and see what happens but time is ticking away and I think we should "seize the day" while we still can. Wish us luck!


If you have looked at all factors and have no financial worries there is no reason why you shouldn't move.


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## danboy20 (Jul 10, 2017)

mrypg9 said:


> How long before the next asset bubble crash, would you say?



No condescension or bitterness?

Shall we just call this comment, plain nastiness then?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

danboy20 said:


> No condescension or bitterness?
> 
> Shall we just call this comment, plain nastiness then?


Don't be silly (or nasty).

Its a serious question, even if you don't feel able to treat it as such.

All around southern and maybe the rest of Spain construction is beginning over again. How many unsold or half finished developments are outstanding from the last boom and consequent bust? How many bank repossessions on the market?

Yes, apart from Brexit depressing the UK market for cheap and medium-priced property in Spain (we know the top end holds up) there are many factors that could depress Spanish and wider European demand. Supply can easily outstrip demand.
I have no idea how long you have been in Spain. Maybe you don't remember the large number of Brits who, unable to cope with the depressed value of sterling, were obliged to sell up and return to the UK, only to find that the value of their property, if they managed to sell at all, was in some cases less than the purchase price. 
This may or mat not happen again to such a severe extent but as you must know these things go in cycles.
The OP intends to become a permanent resident in Spain and is secure enough to weather all storms so none of the above applies in his/her case. But each case is individual and blanket advice to 'Go for it', 'You only live once' and so on can lead to unwelcome consequences if followed in all cases. I always advise younger people to take a chance. Mistakes can be put right with time in most cases. But older people don't always have that opportunity.
I was lucky, very lucky. When I left the UK twelve years ago I sold residential properties and business premises in the nick of time, just before the crash. My family has property in Spain, I rent a very nice house from a very good landlord. Like the OP I did my financial homework and have no money worries.
Therefore zero bitterness. I hope the OP will be as happy in his/her new life in Spain as I have been.
The tone of your replies and the fact you choose to evade answering an important question on which, as a seller of property you must surely hold an opinion, gives cause to ponder. Is 'Go for it' your advice to everyone, I wonder?
Again, nothing 'nasty', just a question.


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

You flatter me mrypg9! I am hoping we have sorted out of finances sufficiently but only time will tell. As far as homework...I have tried but expect a daily barrage of questions from yours truly once the wheels get in motion


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

infomaniac said:


> You flatter me mrypg9! I am hoping we have sorted out of finances sufficiently but only time will tell. As far as homework...I have tried but expect a daily barrage of questions from yours truly once the wheels get in motion


If I can help in any way, I will but there are posters like Xabia and Pesky Wesky with much moreexperience and knowledge than I!


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Don't worry-I meant I will be posting on the forum not targeting you personally!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

infomaniac said:


> Don't worry-I meant I will be posting on the forum not targeting you personally!!


No worries....I was in politics and did case work so often targeted personally!!
I survived..


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Anecdotal I know, but five separate British couples have bought property in our village since the referendum- three as holiday homes and two for permanent residence. The last one before that was seven years ago. This despite the fall in the value of sterling - though property prices have fallen much faster.

We have one-bedroom townhouses on offer up the road for €26,000, newly reformed.

And no, I don't have a vested interest before anyone asks!


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## infomaniac (May 27, 2013)

Wow €26,000...bargain!! Trust us to set our hearts on somewhere where properties are still megabucks :-(


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