# Tips Please!



## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Hi everyone, I've just joined this forum as I'm looking for some advice.
I'm currently living in London as I had to return from 6 years on the Costa Blanca due to family issues. I was looking to return to Spain permanently, but NOT on the CB! Forget urbanisations and bingo and fish n chip shops! I was looking around Cadiar/Orgiva in the Alpujarras. 
However, Spain has brought in modelo 720, which requires (on pain of huge fines) that all tax residents (over 183 days a year) declare full details and amounts (over E50k per section) of all overseas holdings inc property, pension pots etc etc. I fully expect them to do a swooping wealth tax on all this info. Pus, you can no longer rent out your own property (the hoteliers made representations to the government) and that's something I may well want to do, or at east have the option. The Spanish seem to not want expats and only see them as a source of income. Plus, there is the fabled Spanish attitudes - is it the same in Portugal?
I'm therefore looking at eventually moving somewhere else. Must be warm! I saw Portugal mentioned in an article and was wondering if they're doing the same tax etc wise as Spain, or whether they're showing sense.
Then of course there is the area to live in. I've looked at a few websites and rather like the middle of the country - not the Algarve. Too like the Costas.
So any ideas or suggestions anyone has, please let me know. 
How easy is it to buy a property? What's happening to the prices? What are the utility companies like? Is it easy to get along in the country? All sweeping questions I know, but I want to get a feel for the country.
TIA
PS PM me if you'd prefer


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Central Portugal has coldish winters but I understand the coastal zones are warmer.

The property market is slow and although I don't know how they compare to Spain are (IMO) generally very reasonable. E50K will buy you an apartment in town or an out of town house in need of some renovation and E100K will buy you somewhere reasonably nice and ready to move into. 

buying property here is fairly easy and fast as long as you don't need a mortgage but if you need one, I understand they're not very easy to get. 

Utilities are reasonably priced (IMO). We got something like 5 years free rates because we're new immigrants buying our first house in Portugal. Water varies from month to month but is probably around E25 per month on average and gas costs us about E25 per 3 weeks. We cook with electricity and I get an idea we pay about E100 per month on average....... I do like to cook though! 

Getting fiscal numbers & residencias was fairly easy for us and each only took about 20 minutes of waiting in Govt offices. 

I don't know a great deal about tax registration etc so will let other, better qualified people comment on that one.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for this...utilities seem to be in the same ballpark, however getting an NIE (equivalent, fiscal number) seems much quicker. The Spanish love to make EVERYTHING difficult! I'm beginning to think that this whole Big Brother Spanish attitude may be a blessing in disguise for me.
I'm looking at inland, in the country. From what I can tell, it is a lot greener in PT. That was what I missed most in Spain, the greenery. I'm guessing that the winters will be cold. They are (out of the sun and especially at night) on the CB. No insulation and tiled floors will do it every time!
BTW, I also need to know a few other things:
Are the vets good? I've got 3 cats and the spanish vets were superb. Also they spoke English, but that may've been the area I was in ie lots of expats.
How good is the post office? Is there an English post system with pick up points in PT?
How is the broadband coverage, particularly in rural areas?
Thanks again.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Portugal has a couple of schemes to attract people to move to Portugal so seems unlikely they'll follow Spains Modelo 720, as a Resident you should make a yearly tax return declaring wordwide income but not investment, one of the schemes is aimed at reducing tax liability for non habitual residents for a 10 year period.

Property easy to buy with a vast range available everywhere, difficult to sell, like every country prices dropping its a buyers market, rental no problem should be licensed to avoid risk of fines but a simple inexpensive process. 

Rates exemption for Residents is now for a 3 year period, property VPN value (not purchase value) less than 125,000€ you income less than 153,300€

Utilities easy, expensive not by UK standards, broadband depends on location goes from superb to rubbish
UK TV lots of people areas waiting for final Sats moves this summer to see if it'll still be available by Sat

Far less of an attitude to Expats than other countries


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

People here complain about Portuguese bureaucracy but I've spent a large part of my life in Africa and compared to that, the Portuguese system is brilliantly efficient and in all honesty, I've never yet had cause for complaint with it.

Yes, it's pretty green in at least my part of the central zone for most of the year....... or more accurately, that's been the case so far but we've only been here for 18 months.

We've had 2 winters here and both have had a fair number of frosty mornings and chilly days but the locals tell us the last 2 winters have been a lot colder than usual....... I hope they're right! LOL

We haven't had cause to use a vet yet but we're told they're fairly good albeit sometimes a bit pricey. Many, possibly most professionals (from my limited experience) seem to speak at least some English and again, from my limited experience, pretty much all locals are very welcoming and friendly and if they don't speak English, it's not uncommon for them to go off and find someone who does.

Post Office system in my area is very good indeed and I use 3 different branches. 2 of them have English speakers and the other understands my sign language. LOL!

Broadband varies as do the suppliers but you can always go to Bentley Walker Tooway which is a brilliant system at a good price. They work pretty much anywhere and you can find their site on the net.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Portuguese Post Ofice great, our postie will even take letters from us to post, might be on the end of Europe but Portugals hardly a third world country and in many ways is further advanced and more up to date than most


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

What is a non-habitual resident?


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Everything sounds really good so far! Maybe I'm just so used to fighting for everything in Spain that I've got used to that being the norm.....the Spanish are lovely, it's Spain that's the problem!

The area I'm looking at is inland Coimbra, if I have that right. Anyone live around there?

What is the state of play vis a vis Portuguese banks? Are they collapsing, being nationalised, have oodles of debts etc etc? Also, I've done a search and I gather Barclays have a number of branches- any comments?

Thanks to you all for replying so quickly!!!


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

smudges said:


> What is a non-habitual resident?


This explains nuts & bolts of scheme, a non habitual resident is some who owns property here at 31st Dec each year that is considered a primary residence but who might not spend 183 days consecutive or not per year in Portugal http://www.pwc.pt/pt/fiscalidade/imagens/pwc_europe_best_kept_secret.pdf

You'll find many expats of all nationalities living in and around Coimbra area

Banks fine facing same similar problems to elsewhere but generally stable, personally wouldn't touch Barclay's with a bargepole no direct or preferential links with UK Barclays and few branches in comparison to other banks but with a* highly developed* multibanco system puts UK to shame and internet banking branches aren't that great an issue


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

I have lived in Coimbra for over 4 years and am very happy here. The winter we are just coming out of has indeed been very cold and wet; some say the worst since records began but I would still take it any day over the UK. I'll back up Canoeman too re Barclays especially as the Coimbra branch, along with others, is about to close.

I too lived in Spain for over four years but in a little village inland from the Costa del Sol so I know exactly what you mean about Spanish and their red tape. Trust me it is a lot easier here but can be frustrating on the odd occasion. But hey! We're here to unwind and relax so whenever I have a need to visit a government or council department I always make sure that I have no other commitments and take a book. Certainly in Coimbra, and I guess in most other big towns, there is a Loja. This is a one stop shop with separate units for each of the utility companies and government and council departments. So in the one building you can discuss most things that you will need.

As far as vets go , in my experience they are more expensive than Spain but a whole lot cheaper than the UK. 

Best of luck with your planning.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

I really appreciate the time spent on replies to my post. I've got a lot to think about as well as trawling through what estate agents/etc pages I can find. I'm sure there'll be more questions later! Thanks again


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## joananddaveb (May 12, 2013)

we have lived in the algarve for 6 years we have 2 dogs and let me tell you the vets here are
superb we would rather see them here thanin the uk nothing is too much trouble. if you need treatment for example are small **** tzu got a foreign object in her ear only the week before 
they had to put her to sleep to remove it as she was very distressed and would not let even us 
look at it. they then gave her tablets for the pain and a antibiotic cream for infection. we found 
it almost impossible to apply ourselves as she had to have it wuite low in her ear. they charged 
64 euro but then we went back 4 days for the cream applyin and twice since to have them cleaned
no charge for these visits


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

This story is very reassuring. I had four cats who adopted me in Spain and who I brought back to London. One got ill at the New Year and the vets here were not a patch on what I am used to - I ended up ringing my Spanish vet as I didn't trust the English ones. He died (in my arms) but at least Javier TRIED which is more than can be said for the others. It's very important to me (doubly so after what happened) that they are looked after properly and whilst the cost isn't the main thing (I hate being ripped off) it's finding the quality of care that tops my list.
Your story ticks the boxes for me and I'm comfortable with the idea of PT vets. Thanks again.


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## Slackrat (Apr 30, 2013)

canoeman said:


> Banks fine facing same similar problems to elsewhere but generally stable, personally wouldn't touch Barclay's with a bargepole no direct or preferential links with UK Barclays and few branches in comparison to other banks but with a* highly developed* multibanco system puts UK to shame and internet banking branches aren't that great an issue


Caveat here

The withdrawals from Banking Machines are limited to Euros 200 two times a day.

You should take this into consideration in conjunction with any limits that might also be placed on withdrawals by your Home Country Bank.

In other words, it might take a day or two to amass a sizeable amount of euros from your Home Country Bank.

The Red Flag on Barclays is probably valid. I came to Portugal frrom France and upon attempting to open an account in France with Barclays, the manager glibly told me that the fee would be Euros 50 per month, 

Bill Henderson


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

With Multibanco card payments here you can virtually pay any amount at no charge via Multibanco ATM, shop, agent only limit is really your bank balance so little need to build a large amount of cash.

Use a UK card to pay or withdraw, fees will depend on your bank, use a UK C/C to draw cash you'll also pay interest on top of fees


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

kanguru said:


> Caveat here
> 
> The withdrawals from Banking Machines are limited to Euros 200 two times a day.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill. I only asked about Barclays as a) I have an English Barclays account b) in Spain, they are regarded as fine in comparison to the Spanish banks.

Fees being introduced in Spain for even ordinary bank a/c's but E50 seems very high.

Is the withdrawal limit analagous to a pre-Cypriot type situation or is that just the way things are done(!)?


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

canoeman said:


> With Multibanco card payments here you can virtually pay any amount at no charge via Multibanco ATM, shop, agent only limit is really your bank balance so little need to build a large amount of cash.
> 
> Use a UK card to pay or withdraw, fees will depend on your bank, use a UK C/C to draw cash you'll also pay interest on top of fees


I understand. I presume Multibanco is like the Link system in England? 

What banks are the best/least wobbly?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Far superior to UK Link, ATM's.

Banks are always a personal choice, we use Millennium our third bank here found them far better than BES & Santander/Totta, good English internet banking although I'm so used to it now so not a necessitity but still a +, free money transfer UK to Portugal from any UK bank


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## Slackrat (Apr 30, 2013)

canoeman said:


> Far superior to UK Link, ATM's.
> 
> Banks are always a personal choice, we use Millennium our third bank here found them far better than BES & Santander/Totta, good English internet banking although I'm so used to it now so not a necessitity but still a +, free money transfer UK to Portugal from any UK bank


I'm personally using Santander-Totta despite the recent downgrade of the Spanish Santander parent.

There's a branch only 100 meteers from where I live being the rationale.

<http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-04-30/santander-and-bbva-among-11-spanish-banks-downgraded-by-s-and-p>

In any instance, I keep only a small balance to cover the fees and my Internet payments monthly plus any Pharmacy purchases for which a Portuguese card is usually (perhaps always) demanded.

Bill Henderson


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Another good reason not to use Barclays is that they're so corrupt. Try doing a Google search on Barclays and Robert Mugabe and you'll see they donate in excess of US$100M each and every year to Mugabe's murderous, genocidal and illegal regime for no apparent reason or return.


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## loonytoon (Feb 11, 2009)

kanguru said:


> Caveat here
> 
> The withdrawals from Banking Machines are limited to Euros 200 two times a day.
> 
> Bill Henderson


if you have a joint account you can both withdraw E400 a day

jeff


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## Slackrat (Apr 30, 2013)

loonytoon said:


> if you have a joint account you can both withdraw E400 a day
> 
> jeff


Good Heads up

Unfortunately there is only myself here plus sundry daughters and grandchildren occasionally.


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## Mayflower44 (Jul 27, 2012)

Not sure about the tax situation as we are not weathy but buying a property in Portugal can be very easy and quick. We LOVE living in Portugal (Central inland area of Santarem). The food is great, wine is good and cheap, the people are kind and friendly if you treat them with respect (as you should of course). Beware of buying a property through the courts as this can be long winded and fraught with problems. One thing that many people don't know is that although a property may have been reduced in price the local authority may have the property registered as being valued at a much higher price and this is the amount you will pay purchase tax on. 

Also we have heard of people having problems buying from multiple family members as they cannot all agree on the price and some may live abroad, and this can cause problems. Your estate agent can check both these things for you.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Mayflower44 said:


> Not sure about the tax situation as we are not weathy but buying a property in Portugal can be very easy and quick. We LOVE living in Portugal (Central inland area of Santarem). The food is great, wine is good and cheap, the people are kind and friendly if you treat them with respect (as you should of course). Beware of buying a property through the courts as this can be long winded and fraught with problems. One thing that many people don't know is that although a property may have been reduced in price the local authority may have the property registered as being valued at a much higher price and this is the amount you will pay purchase tax on.
> 
> Also we have heard of people having problems buying from multiple family members as they cannot all agree on the price and some may live abroad, and this can cause problems. Your estate agent can check both these things for you.


Is it possible to get the property revalued by the local authority so that the tax is paid on the correct amount? Presumably at the time of sale, by the lawyer concerned.

Speaking of which, how DOES one go about finding a competent lawyer???


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Smudges

I don't know but would guess it's virtually impossible to get a property revalued so you pay less tax on it but the tax isn't a hell of a lot anyway so don't sweat that too much.

Plenty of good English speaking lawyers around from my (limited) experience so just ask here when you settle on an area and I'm sure someone will be able to recommend a local one.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

travelling-man said:


> Smudges
> 
> I don't know but would guess it's virtually impossible to get a property revalued so you pay less tax on it but the tax isn't a hell of a lot anyway so don't sweat that too much.
> 
> Plenty of good English speaking lawyers around from my (limited) experience so just ask here when you settle on an area and I'm sure someone will be able to recommend a local one.


Gracias (or whatever it is in Portuguese!)!!


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Obrigado in Portuguese. 

And 'nada' which seems to mean you're welcome or it's nothing. 

Which is about the limit of my Portuguese.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

The purchase tax Mayflower is referring to I don't quite understand as unlike the VPN or rateable value, you pay IMT & IS at fixed rates on the agreed declared purchase price, its been a practice to under declare this price to save IMT & IS *don't* it affects the buyer and causes problems.

Property is revalued every time it's sold, one of papers buyer completes is a declaration for Financas who are responsible body for the VPN on which % IMI is based, your Camara sets the %, if you believe a property is overvalued you can appeal within time constraints but you foot the bill for the re-evaluation whether your successful or not.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

canoeman said:


> The purchase tax Mayflower is referring to I don't quite understand as unlike the VPN or rateable value, you pay IMT & IS at fixed rates on the agreed declared purchase price, its been a practice to under declare this price to save IMT & IS *don't* it affects the buyer and causes problems.
> 
> Property is revalued every time it's sold, one of papers buyer completes is a declaration for Financas who are responsible body for the VPN on which % IMI is based, your Camara sets the %, if you believe a property is overvalued you can appeal within time constraints but you foot the bill for the re-evaluation whether your successful or not.


Obrigado!

This sounds like Spanish practices, so to speak. The cash in a brown envelope thing is, I know to be avoided. Is there the problem, which happens in Spain, of the tax authorities coming back years after the purchase to demand additional tax? (On properties where everything was fine, legal and above board and all taxes paid and complied with.) 

Also, off this topic, do the local councils run Portuguese lessons for expats? I picked up some Spanish (which to me is easier to read by far than when listening)
and have a feeling it would have been relatively easy to learn. I did French and a couple of years of Latin at school so the basics are there. The Spanish have the classes which I think is a wonderful idea. However I didn't need Spanish (except for shopping) where I was as it was all expats.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

No it's not that, resident or non resident when you sell a primary or secondary property in Portugal you have to file a tax return for year of sale, for CGT purposes, you can only use the purchase price declared in the Escritura as the basis for calculation, so if you've under declared price you might well face a higher CGT bill, which for a non Resident has greater implications.

You'd only be in trouble with Financas if they found out you'd made an under claration, we don't have the same issues with property purchase here that can be a minefield in Spain 

Yes its a government initiative but can depend on whether there's a sufficient number of expats to make up a class


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Good oh. Fighting the taxman is such not fun...

Once I'm there I'll post on this forum to see if anyone else wants to learn.


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## Mayflower44 (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't think you can get the property revalued. It is something like the rateable value in the UK which does not always reflect the selling price.

Finding a reputable lawyer is not easy. I would not recommend using a lawyer recommended by an estate agent. I have found good ones by emailing Brit owned B&Bs and owners of tourism businesses and asking them if they can recommend one.

By the way, I can thoroughly recommend renting for a few months before buying. This gives you time to make sure you have chosen the right area. We rented for 8 months and in that time we fell in love with several properties which all turned out to be wrong in one way or another. We finally got the best house for us, and we had learned enough first hand knowledge to avoid many of the pitfalls that can occur.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

If your properties VPN (rateable value) or taxable value also used for any inheritance IS tax issues has been revalued by Financas and you believe it is too high you can appeal but as I said you face cost of appeal successful or not.

Property is revalued at sale, purchase, since 2008 (think that correct year without checking) there is a new re-valuation formula, older properties or those that haven't changed hands are being revalued and this is where the major VPN increases are and appeals might succeed


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