# Largest best connected expat community 50-70 ?



## frasermanx

Where is the largest best connected expat community in Mexico ? Lake CHapala ? Cabo ? Mexico DF? Cuernavaca ? Oaxaca ? Chiapas ? San Miguel ?

I mean an expat community that meets in groups, has discussions / events in the 50-70 age group ?

thanks very much (prospective retiree looking for like minded expats)


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## Hound Dog

Probably Lake Chapala or, more precisely that small part of a very large lake commonly called "Lakeside". If I were you I would forget Chiapas and Oaxaca by which I presume you mean Oaxaca City. You might like Guadalajara as you selected DF as one of your possible choices since that seems to mean you have not precluded large urban áreas.


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## lagoloo

What sort of (like minded)connection are you seeking?

In Lakeside, we got 'em all: golfers, drinkers, a Cosmology Club, ladies luncheon groups, book clubs, art associations and people who just hang out at the donut shop and share complaints..........among many others.


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## joaquinx

lagoloo said:


> What sort of (like minded)connection are you seeking?
> 
> In Lakeside, we got 'em all: golfers, drinkers, a Cosmology Club, ladies luncheon groups, book clubs, art associations and people who just hang out at the donut shop and share complaints..........among many others.


Sounds like a weekend in the Hamptons.


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## RVGRINGO

Definitely Lake Chapala, the largest expat community there is. The lakeside area, as it is sometimes called, extends from east of Chapala to Jocotopec, a separate municipalidad at the west end of the lake. Chapala centro is the seat of government and the main shopping for the area, while Ajijic, five miles west, tends to be the artsy area with a little theater and lots of US/Canadian directed enterprises and restaurants, gyms and such, catering to expats.
We lived in Ajijic for our first few years here, then sold and bought in Chapala in 2004.
Since this area is only half an hour from the GDL international airport, one hour from Guadalajara Centro and 4-5 hours to the Pacific beaches, the location could not be better. Of course, the near perfect weather cannot be beat.


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## Longford

From what I've observed/learned:

Mexico City (probably the largest expat community in Mexico - comprised of many 'foreign' cultures/languages)
Lakeside (Lake Chapala communities)
Oaxaca
Alamos

There are addtional communities where you'll find expats - English speaking expats - where organized get togethers are not as commonplace.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> From what I've observed/learned:
> 
> Mexico City (probably the largest expat community in Mexico - comprised of many 'foreign' cultures/languages)
> Lakeside (Lake Chapala communities)
> Oaxaca
> Alamos
> 
> There are addtional communities where you'll find expats - English speaking expats - where organized get togethers are not as commonplace.


I know there are lots of expats living in Mexico City, but since they are dispersed over such a large area, there is not the sense of "community" you will find in a much smaller place like the Lake Chapala area. Also, the majority of expats in Mexico City are not retirees, which means they are busy working and taking care of their families and don't have the time (or the inclination) to hang out with other expats and participate in the kinds of activities and clubs lagoloo mentions in his post.


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## conorkilleen

There are quite a few expat communities in Mexico City. InterNations is a big one, but I never go to the events or meet and greets.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> There are quite a few expat communities in Mexico City. InterNations is a big one, but I never go to the events or meet and greets.


By "communities" do you mean "organizations", rather than areas where expats live?


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## conorkilleen

Depends who you ask. They refer to themselves as both. Online Community/Online Organization


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> Depends who you ask. They refer to themselves as both. Online Community/Online Organization


I see. Of course, there's a big difference from an online community and one that exists in the real world of houses and streets and stores.


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## conorkilleen

Per the OPs definition of "communities" and what he was looking for, I believe that a group like InterNations is what he/she was looking for. InterNations has events, meet ups, online discussions, and more.

I'm sure Lake Chapala is a great community, however you can still be a "community" and not do the extra stuff. Like a group of expats that live in the same "community" but don't talk to each other.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> Per the OPs definition of "communities" and what he was looking for, I believe that a group like InterNations is what he/she was looking for. InterNations has events, meet ups, online discussions, and more.
> 
> I'm sure Lake Chapala is a great community, however you can still be a "community" and not do the extra stuff. Like a group of expats that live in the same "community" but don't talk to each other.


Fair enough, conor. I'm old enough that when someone speaks of "communities", my first thought is of places where people live in the same physical area, in houses and apartments. There are a few other expats who live in my neighborhood, but except for two of them (one is a neighbor who has become a good friend and the other is an old friend who I first met here way back in 1978, when we both taught at the same university), I have never met any of them. The people I hang out with in my barrio are all Mexicans.


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## conorkilleen

Funny story- Whenever I hear English being spoken at the grocery store, usually I avoid that person and don't engage in conversation.


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## Longford

conorkilleen said:


> There are quite a few expat communities in Mexico City. InterNations is a big one, but I never go to the events or meet and greets.


Yes. And my observation/belief has been that there are a lot of 50-70 y.o. expats in the D.F. I don't think anyone's done a demographic survey, however. INM would know, but it doesn't publish those statistics that I know of. Though the D.F. is a large geographical area - organizations/groups exist which sponsor/promote events: everything from the Hash House Harriers to the Newcomer's Group, to the military service organizations, to church groups, charitable groups, etc. I included the D.F. in my list because many people I see comment on internet forums seem to overlook it. Not all expats aged 50-70 are looking for small town life; some actually enjoy a vibrant urban environment.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> I included the D.F. in my list because many people I see comment on internet forums seem to overlook it. Not all expats aged 50-70 are looking for small town life; some actually enjoy a vibrant urban environment.


Indeed we do!


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## Hound Dog

_...Living at Lake Chapala´s "Lakeside"...



joaquinx said:



Sounds like a weekend in the Hamptons.

Click to expand...

_Ah, yes, the never-ending weekend. God´s waiting room. Peoria Upon Sump. Daily Rotary Club meetings in Dixon, Illinois. Bill Murray´s charácter and that character´s cinematic experiences in _GROUNDHOG DAY_. Almost endless spring. Damn flowers never stop blooming and in the winter, the most beautiful pelicans on earth fly down from Canada to escape the freezing drear along with their human counterparts while in the summer Texans fly in from the border to avoid heatstroke. Think of 70 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit nearly every day and almost constant sunshine. West Los Angeles at a fraction of the cost. Unlike San Miguel, lots of flat land easy to maneuver on foot to get around but surrounded by magnificent mountains and many properties with splendid lake views if that is your preference.

Absolutely one of the best climates on the planet and, believe me, once you retire,  fine climate becomes a lot more important than when you were working down at the salt mine. 


Now, it´s true that there is an overabundance of somewhat cloying midwestern boosterism at Lakeside but there are also endless miles of deserted beaches where you can run your pooches in seclusion along the lake front and if you choose a reclusive lifestyle you simply build your high walls and avoid the boosters like the plague. Your choice. This Lakeside is so nice in so many ways, you could live here in peace as a hermit.

Two of the other places you suggested in your post were Chiapas where we also live in the highlands in San Cristóbal de Las Casas for several months every year and Oaxaca, one of our favorite places in North America and a place we often visit. . There is an expat community in San Cristóbal as there is in Oaxaca City (plus some parts of Oaxaca State) and these places are great communities so if you still have an interest in discussing them, let me know. However, don´t consider these places unless you or a trusted loved one is conversant in Spanish.


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## lagoloo

deleted


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## lagoloo

conorkilleen said:


> Funny story- Whenever I hear English being spoken at the grocery store, usually I avoid that person and don't engage in conversation.


You mean you didn't the shots for that allergy to your former fellow countrymen?


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## joaquinx

conorkilleen said:


> Funny story- Whenever I hear English being spoken at the grocery store, usually I avoid that person and don't engage in conversation.


The last person I met in the grocery store that was speaking English was a missionary who then tried to convert me. :tape2:


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## lagoloo

Hound Dog said:


> _...Living at Lake Chapala´s "Lakeside"...
> 
> _
> 
> Ah, yes, the never-ending weekend. God´s waiting room. Peoria Upon Sump. Daily Rotary Club meetings in Dixon, Illinois. Bill Murray´s charácter and that character´s cinematic experiences in _GROUNDHOG DAY_. Almost endless spring. Damn flowers never stop blooming and in the winter, the most beautiful pelicans on earth fly down from Canada to escape the freezing drear along with their human counterparts while in the summer Texans fly in from the border to avoid heatstroke. Think of 70 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit nearly every day and almost constant sunshine. West Los Angeles at a fraction of the cost. Unlike San Miguel, lots of flat land easy to maneuver on foot to get around but surrounded by magnificent mountains and many properties with splendid lake views if that is your preference.
> 
> Absolutely one of the best climates on the planet and, believe me, once you retire, fine climate becomes a lot more important than when you were working down at the salt mine.
> 
> 
> Now, it´s true that there is an overabundance of somewhat cloying midwestern boosterism at Lakeside but there are also endless miles of deserted beaches where you can run your pooches in seclusion along the lake front and if you choose a reclusive lifestyle you simply build your high walls and avoid the boosters like the plague. Your choice. This Lakeside is so nice in so many ways, you could live here in peace as a hermit.
> 
> Two of the other places you suggested in your post were Chiapas where we also live in the highlands in San Cristóbal de Las Casas for several months every year and Oaxaca, one of our favorite places in North America and a place we often visit. . There is an expat community in San Cristóbal as there is in Oaxaca City (plus some parts of Oaxaca State) and these places are great communities so if you still have an interest in discussing them, let me know. However, don´t consider these places unless you or a trusted loved one is conversant in Spanish.


Mostly well put. The sneering is to be expected, considering the source.

Besides the fine climate where you're not trapped indoors due to heat or cold, I think the other biggest advantage to the Lakeside area is that there are so many differences in the large population. Yes, there are plenty of small town yahoos, but there are also plenty of former big city people who can actually read, write, and think. 
There is also a good supply of border promotions and pretentious types who pay excessive pesos for lunches featuring menus including Shepherds Pie by another name. But......a glass of wine is included!!

The other advantage is that there is a decent variety of *un*pretentious eateries at fair prices.


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## lagoloo

joaquinx said:


> The last person I met in the grocery store that was speaking English was a missionary who then tried to convert me. :tape2:


Those are easy to spot by the vacant eyes and the lobotomized expression.
English speakers at the popular local super are so numerous that you'll be likely to run into people you know well. They get really put out if you don't say hi in passing.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Those are easy to spot by the vacant eyes and the lobotomized expression.


Don't forget the big vapid smile.


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> Don't forget the big vapid smile.


These were very nice people and we were having a wonderful conversation until they asked if I wanted some information while handing me some tracts.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> These were very nice people and we were having a wonderful conversation until they asked if I wanted some information while handing me some tracts.


It's a shame, then, that they had to ruin a budding friendship when the imperatives of their "mission" kicked in.


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## Hound Dog

lagoloo said:


> Mostly well put. The sneering is to be expected, considering the source.
> 
> There is also a good supply of border promotions and pretentious types who pay excessive pesos for lunches featuring menus including Shepherds Pie by another name. But......a glass of wine is included!!


As to the "sneering", lagoloo, thanks for the compliment if that was your intention. I am quite delighted with living, at least part time, on Lake Chapala and consider my comments to have been complimentary of the place although my disdain, as a Southern boy from the Alabama Gulf Coast for midwestern plains dwellers may have shown through in my remarks As someone once said about France; France would be a fine place if it weren´t for the French. OK; so once in a while I become annoyed that as as nice as Lakeside is, when I venture too far from home here in Ajijic I feel I have once again ventured upon the streets of Mattoon, Illinois circa 1967 and Lion´s Club members are on every corner selling tickets to the upcoming county fair with the "midget" dunking exhibition.

There is one thing that puzzles me, however; "Shepherd´s Pie" here at Lake Chapala or anywhere in Mexico under another name or for that matter any name? Shepherd´s Pie is an English culinary atrocity and, in over 13 years in Mexico I have never come even close to one no matter what they call it. Now, my family were Scots who had the good sense a couple of centuries ago to escape that cold, miserable island with its dreadful food and English inperialism but certainly one of the reasons they fled that realm was Shepherd´s Pie. 

What is this similar Mexican dish of which you write or have you been hanging out at the Vista Del Lago Country Club for too many years pigging out on their Sunday buffet. .


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## lagoloo

Dawg, you mean you haven't seen the latest menu posted by the very posh folks striving for 5 stars at the Hacienda del Lago B&B and restaurant? Pity. This weeks' menu features "potato pie" with lamb. Sounds like the evil twin of Shepherds' Pie to me. (Another reason why Scottish dining delights are not up there with Italian or French in the popularity poll.) This is the main course, preceded by some kind of flowery described appetizer and followed by another overblown description for a dessert which could be more accurately stated as "a brownie, with chocolate sauce." 
For all this at lunch, you can pay 220 pesos or 250 with a glass of wine included.
Who could resist? Dinner starts at $440 pp.

I have led a deprived life. No stopovers in Matoon.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=joaquinx;4223650]These were very nice people and we were having a wonderful conversation until they asked if I wanted some information while handing me some tracts.[/QUOTE]_

They´re always the nicest and most pleasant people and remain so even when they spring the leaflet trap. They are not only to be found in supermarkets but upon back country roads and in small villages as well. I have observed and encountered them on back country roads and small villages in both Jalisco and Chiapas and can spot them as they disembark from their cars or vans.. I don´t object to their proselytizing me as I am not susceptible to their message but they have brought about serious political and social disruption in rural Chiapas which is both good and bad - often very bad. Most people in Mexico, whether native or foreign, have no idea of the seriousness of social disruption brought about by the evangelical Christian movement in Southern Mexico but - hey - I have no dog in this fight. Tend your own garden. No religión is my keeper.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Dawg, you mean you haven't seen the latest menu posted by the very posh folks striving for 5 stars at the Hacienda del Lago B&B and restaurant? Pity. This weeks' menu features "potato pie" with lamb. Sounds like the evil twin of Shepherds' Pie to me. (Another reason why Scottish dining delights are not up there with Italian or French in the popularity poll.) This is the main course, preceded by some kind of flowery described appetizer and followed by another overblown description for a dessert which could be more accurately stated as "a brownie, with chocolate sauce."
> For all this at lunch, you can pay 220 pesos or 250 with a glass of wine included.
> Who could resist? Dinner starts at $440 pp.


"Only" $220 for all of that. I can eat better at my favorite local eatery for $70 + a modest tip.


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## lagoloo

Isla Verde said:


> "Only" $220 for all of that. I can eat better at my favorite local eatery for $70 + a modest tip.


Actually, I can do better than that. LOL. How about 65 pesos for a big prime rib French dip sammich with a salad or fries? Or 55 for ground sirloin with carmelized onions and the extras above? (For curious local minds......it's at Bruno's. Don't always have the Prime Rib, but worth checking on Mondays.
Many local eateries have a nice lunch in that range.


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## citlali

I am surprise San Miguel de Allende was not mentionned. I would think that there are more expats there than in Oaxaca and they certainly have their share of get together and organizations.


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## citlali

I would spend the money if I thought it was worth it but considering how many problems they have had with chefs, I will wait and have a couple of meals somewhere else in the meanwhile.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Actually, I can do better than that. LOL. How about 65 pesos for a big prime rib French dip sammich with a salad or fries? Or 55 for ground sirloin with carmelized onions and the extras above? (For curious local minds......it's at Bruno's. Don't always have the Prime Rib, but worth checking on Mondays.
> Many local eateries have a nice lunch in that range.


I'm not so big on meals featuring large servings of beef. I prefer more Mexican-style food these days. And for 70 peros I get soup, a second appetizer of some kind, a main dish, dessert, and agua de frutas x2.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=lagoloo;4223914]Dawg, you mean you haven't seen the latest menu posted by the very posh folks striving for 5 stars at the Hacienda del Lago B&B and restaurant? Pity. This weeks' menu features "potato pie" with lamb. Sounds like the evil twin of Shepherds' Pie to me. (Another reason why Scottish dining delights are not up there with Italian or French in the popularity poll.) This is the main course, preceded by some kind of flowery described appetizer and followed by another overblown description for a dessert which could be more accurately stated as "a brownie, with chocolate sauce." 
For all this at lunch, you can pay 220 pesos or 250 with a glass of wine included.
Who could resist? Dinner starts at $440 pp.

I have led a deprived life. No stopovers in Matoon.[/QUOTE_]

Good anser, lagoloo:

I´m beginning to like your cynacism. 

I would not normally bring this up but while down in Chiapas we often read of these great new "al fresco" dining joints in Ajijic that were serving "exquisite" French food in beautiful garden settings with views one in Hacienda del Lago and another in Tres Leones. Both of those venues are quite pleasant and I can´t say that either is serving great or pedestrian food after only one meal at one place but here is my take: 

The joint I went to for lunch a 3:00PM served me up from their limiited menú some crepes stuffed with duck confit as an appetizer and a lamburger as a main course. Both dishes were mediocre at best and unappetizing.I felt the dishes exhibited a lack of knowledge on cooking rather than an inadvertent error in the kitchen. In other words, an unskilled kitchen staff and master. This misadventure was not cheap but that would be fine if they had delivered.

Now, my wife criticizd me for ordering a lamburger in a French restaurant so here is why I did so:

IRANIAN LAMBURGER
*Grind fresh quality lamb meat and add lots of crushed garlic and chopped parsley. Perhaps freshly ground black pepper. 
* Cut some red onions.
* Toast buttered hamburger buns to taste-
* Charbroil the lamb patties to your taste. Rare to médium rare is best.
* Make burgers - with mayonaisse if preferred.
*Eat with red wine.


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## lagoloo

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=lagoloo;4223914]Dawg, you mean you haven't seen the latest menu posted by the very posh folks striving for 5 stars at the Hacienda del Lago B&B and restaurant? Pity. This weeks' menu features "potato pie" with lamb. Sounds like the evil twin of Shepherds' Pie to me. (Another reason why Scottish dining delights are not up there with Italian or French in the popularity poll.) This is the main course, preceded by some kind of flowery described appetizer and followed by another overblown description for a dessert which could be more accurately stated as "a brownie, with chocolate sauce."
> For all this at lunch, you can pay 220 pesos or 250 with a glass of wine included.
> Who could resist? Dinner starts at $440 pp.
> 
> I have led a deprived life. No stopovers in Matoon.[/QUOTE_]
> 
> Good anser, lagoloo:
> 
> I´m beginning to like your cynacism.
> 
> I would not normally bring this up but while down in Chiapas we often read of these great new "al fresco" dining joints in Ajijic that were serving "exquisite" French food in beautiful garden settings with views one in Hacienda del Lago and another in Tres Leones. Both of those venues are quite pleasant and I can´t say that either is serving great or pedestrian food after only one meal at one place but here is my take:
> 
> The joint I went to for lunch a 3:00PM served me up from their limiite menú some crepes stuffed with duck confit as an appetizer and a lambburger as a main course. Both dishes were mediocre at best an unappetizing.I felt the dishes exibited a lack of knowledge on cooking rather than an inadvertent error in the kitchen. In other talents. words, an unskilled kitchen staff and master. This misadventure was not cheap but that would be fine if they had delivered.
> 
> Now, my wife criticizd me for ordering a lambburger in a French restaurant so here is why I did so:
> 
> IRANIAN LAMBURGER
> *Grind high fresh quality lamb meat and add lots of crushed garlic and chopped parsley. Perhaps freshly ground black pepper.
> * Cut some red onions.
> * Toast buttered hamburger buns to taste-
> * Charbroil the lamb patties to your taste. Rare to médium rare is best.
> * Make burgers - with mayonaisse if preferred.
> *Eat with red wine.


Ya want a good lamburger at a reasonable price (around 70 pesos with a side)? Ninette's at lunch in Casa del Sol. Interesting variety of hamburgers, too.
Too thick to actually bite into unless you have a really big mouth, but good enough buns to eat the mess in sections.


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## PanchodeSMA

citlali said:


> I am surprise San Miguel de Allende was not mentionned. I would think that there are more expats there than in Oaxaca and they certainly have their share of get together and organizations.


While we have only "lived" in San Miguel for one month after 4 previous visits, we are very happy with our decision. We visited Chapala, but found it too gringoized for us although everyone we met loved living there. We were looking for a balance of a different culture with access to an expat community. 

We love living in a culturally mixed neighborhood shopping at the local stores and markets. In the month we've been here we've used 1/4 tank of gas in the car! The hills and cobblestone streets can be a challenge for some, but we look at it as part of the adventure.

Lots of good, interesting and reasonably priced dining options. In the week we visited Chapala we didn't find that.

I don't know how many younger families with kids live here, but we do see them. There are schools that transition from English. There are many groups involved in the arts, environment, community.

The COL is a little higher for housing. Finding a long term rental can be difficult because the vacation rental market is so strong, as we discovered. 

Hola, San Miguel was at the center of the revolution and they celebrate that frequently. And that can be a problem if you are trying to sleep. LOL. 

There are so many options in Mexico. Buena suerte!


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## GARYJ65

Sorry, but San Miguel was not at the center of the revolution 
And Revolution is not celebrated frequently but only once a year


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Sorry, but San Miguel was not at the center of the revolution
> And Revolution is not celebrated frequently but only once a year


Wasn't Querétaro one of the centers of the Mexican Revolution? I recall visiting there some years ago and taking an interesting tour which highlighted places in the city where events leading to the Revolution took place.

Ooops. I meant Mexican Independence.


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## citlali

I live in Ajijic and I shop at Mexican stores, I learned Spanish here, anybody who does not see Mexicans in the Lakeside area is just hanging out in the restaurants that are too expensive for the village people.

The wealthy people in the area with the large estate on the lake are all Mexican but they have their help cook for them and also eat luch around 3 or 4 when most foreigners have already left.
We just met our nes neighbors and they are two Mexican artists and they speak fluent English, are from DF and Acapulco.. It all depends what you are looking for.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Wasn't Querétaro one of the centers of the Mexican Revolution? I recall visiting there some years ago and taking an interesting tour which highlighted places in the city where events leading to the Revolution took place.


Mexican revolution started on November 20th, 1910 in the north of Mexico
Maybe we are confusing it with Independence, 100 years prior, started in Dolores Hidalgo and was planned in Queretaro
Either one is celebrated once a year, same as 4th of July in the US, just once a year
Battle of Puebla, May the 5th, that one is a lesser battle but still celebrated


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## TundraGreen

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexican revolution started on November 20th, 1910 in the north of Mexico
> Maybe we are confusing it with Independence, 100 years prior, started in Dolores Hidalgo and was planned in Queretaro
> Either one is celebrated once a year, same as 4th of July in the US, just once a year
> Battle of Puebla, May the 5th, that one is a lesser battle but still celebrated


According to Wikipedia, San Miguel was something of a ghost town at the time of the Revolution.The population started to come back in the 1930s and 1940s. It did play a role in the fight for Independence as Gary says.


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## coondawg

Judging by various visits to SMA, Pancho is referring to the fact that in SMA they seem to find any excuse to shoot off fireworks, at any time, day or night. Being new, and seemingly not well traveled here, he has not discovered that shooting off fireworks is a pastime in every pueblo in Mexico. Viva Mexico. Viva la Independencia !


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexican revolution started on November 20th, 1910 in the north of Mexico
> Maybe we are confusing it with Independence, 100 years prior, started in Dolores Hidalgo and was planned in Queretaro
> Either one is celebrated once a year, same as 4th of July in the US, just once a year
> Battle of Puebla, May the 5th, that one is a lesser battle but still celebrated


My mistake. I did confuse the Mexican Revolution and the Wars of Independence.

We should mention that while the Revolution and the Wars of Independence are celebrated all over the country, the Battle of Puebla is celebrated mostly in Puebla.


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> the Battle of Puebla is celebrated mostly in Puebla.


Maybe a LOT MORE in the US.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> Maybe a LOT MORE in the US.


And often under the mistaken impression that it is Mexico's Independence Day  .


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> And often under the mistaken impression that it is Mexico's Independence Day  .


You are 100% correct !


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## vantexan

coondawg said:


> Judging by various visits to SMA, Pancho is referring to the fact that in SMA they seem to find any excuse to shoot off fireworks, at any time, day or night. Being new, and seemingly not well traveled here, he has not discovered that shooting off fireworks is a pastime in every pueblo in Mexico. Viva Mexico. Viva la Independencia !


We had a balcony overlooking the centro from a distance. It was beautiful watching fireworks over the cathedral.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> We had a balcony overlooking the centro from a distance. It was beautiful watching fireworks over the cathedral.


I love watching fireworks from the roof of my building in Mexico City during festive celebrations!


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=coondawg;4225314]Judging by various visits to SMA, Pancho is referring to the fact that in SMA they seem to find any excuse to shoot off fireworks, at any time, day or night. Being new, and seemingly not well traveled here, he has not discovered that shooting off fireworks is a pastime in every pueblo in Mexico. Viva Mexico. Viva la Independencia ! [/QUOTE]_

Speaking of Fireworks. In San Cristóbal de Las Casas we live in the El Cerrillo (Little Hill) Barrio, one of (I believe) 12 barrios in that city and a part of the old historic center. Our house there is one block from the barrio church and plaza and two blocks from the historic Ex-Convento Santo Domingo and the city´s enormous indigenous market so we are treated to almost consant fireworks displays celebrating everything and nothing in particular in general. We also live next door to an indigenous maternity hospital where it is the local custom to have a serenade in the street whenever a new kid pops out day or night. Good music normally if a bit inconvenient at 3:00AM. Life´s jukebox and no moneda needed to play the music.

We don´t mind the fireworks except for the fact that, due to our proximity to the barrio church, the expent casings tend often to land on our tiled roof and sometimes break the tiles which are, conseqeuntly in need of recurring repair. 

Maybe we should have retired in Denmark or Norway.


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## lagoloo

TundraGreen said:


> According to Wikipedia, San Miguel was something of a ghost town at the time of the Revolution.The population started to come back in the 1930s and 1940s. It did play a role in the fight for Independence as Gary says.


Senor Allende was one of the movers and shakers in the Revolution and was rewarded by having his head placed on a pike in Guanajuato, along with his buds.
Fairly reliable sources say that the Cinco de Mayo battle was won due to the high incidence of dysentery hitting the French troops. People in the states make a huge deal of it for some reason (not the dysentery).

San Miguel de Allende was revitalized by the establishment of the Art Institute which the returning WWII GI's could attend on the GI Bill; make art and raise hell. Famous Beats helped with the image. More recently, a writer named Tony romanticized his time there to the max but later moved on to Guanajuato. 
Today, SMA's Art Institute has been largely converted to shops and eateries. 
Expats often move there to 'reinvent themselves', which explains some of the wonderful ironies expressed in the "Burro Hall" blog. Don't miss it.:music:

I initially moved there and later moved on to Peoria on the Sump, (as Hound Dog names it), aka Lakeside.
The winters in San Miguel discourage gardening; everything freezes. So did we. It's a fine place to visit in the spring.


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## GARYJ65

lagoloo said:


> Senor Allende was one of the movers and shakers in the Revolution and was rewarded by having his head placed on a pike in Guanajuato, along with his buds.
> Fairly reliable sources say that the Cinco de Mayo battle was won due to the high incidence of dysentery hitting the French troops. People in the states make a huge deal of it for some reason (not the dysentery).
> 
> San Miguel de Allende was revitalized by the establishment of the Art Institute which the returning WWII GI's could attend on the GI Bill; make art and raise hell. Famous Beats helped with the image. More recently, a writer named Tony romanticized his time there to the max but later moved on to Guanajuato.
> Today, SMA's Art Institute has been largely converted to shops and eateries.
> Expats often move there to 'reinvent themselves', which explains some of the wonderful ironies expressed in the "Burro Hall" blog. Don't miss it.:music:


I am sorry to disagree again, Ignacio Allende was born in San Miguel el Grande, later named after him as San Miguel de Allende, and he had nothing to do with the revolution, but with Independence.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=lagoloo;4233242]Senor Allende was one of the movers and shakers in the Revolution and was rewarded by having his head placed on a pike in Guanajuato, along with his buds.
Fairly reliable sources say that the Cinco de Mayo battle was won due to the high incidence of dysentery hitting the French troops. People in the states make a huge deal of it for some reason (not the dysentery).

San Miguel de Allende was revitalized by the establishment of the Art Institute which the returning WWII GI's could attend on the GI Bill; make art and raise hell. Famous Beats helped with the image. More recently, a writer named Tony romanticized his time there to the max but later moved on to Guanajuato. 
Today, SMA's Art Institute has been largely converted to shops and eateries. 
Expats often move there to 'reinvent themselves', which explains some of the wonderful ironies expressed in the "Burro Hall" blog. Don't miss it.:music:

I initially moved there and later moved on to Peoria on the Sump, (as Hound Dog names it), aka Lakeside.
The winters in San Miguel discourage gardening; everything freezes. So did we. It's a fine place to visit in the spring.[/QUOTE]_

Good quick history lesson there, logaloo.

I´lll have to check the Burro Hall Blog when I get the opportunity.

We spent some time in San Miguel in the 80s, found it an attractive city and had it on our potential retirement community list along with Guadalajara, "Lakeside", Cuernavaca, Oaxaca City and Mérida. At the time we retired we had three huge mastiffs; one neopolitan and two bordeaux plus some cats and we intended to bring all those creatures down to Mexico with us. My wife was in charge of the initial exploration journey as I was still working at the time and her first stop was Guadalajara since that was the easiest flight from San Francisco. This was 2001 and she ended up initially in Ajijic on the lake and found a home with a large, mature garden just at the beach in West Ajijic with kilometers of deserted beach just made for our dogs to run and play without disturbing other people or dogs. That was it so she bought on the spot.

You speak of the winter climate in San Miguel and I understand your point. We have been to San Miguel once since retiring in Mexico and that was in February - normally a very nice month at Lakeside. Damn it was cold with a somewhat barren surrounding environment when we were there. Still an attractive city but way too many uncaged, foreign peacocks strutting about reeking of self-satisfaction at having landed there in retirement. Well, that town was never on the top of our list anyway and that cold and barren February took it off the list altogether for us. To each his/her own.

In 2006, five years after settling in Ajijic, we took a look at San Cristóbal in November after having traveled to Mérida with the thought of, perhaps, moving there and re-discovering tropical climate induced copious sweating and resulting lethargy that drove us from Mobile to San Franciso in the 1970s. God, was Mérida hot and humid with little if any prospect of relief even in the middle of Winter so we were out of there heading for the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet and bathing in cool temperaturas and brilliant sunshine in San Cristóbal so we bought a home there on the spur of the moment. We had intended, at that time to leave Lake Chapala and settle in Chiapas which is a state we still love for many reasons but we discovered by living in San Cristóbal that a 7,000 foot altitude and the variabilty of frequent Gulf Coastal climate changes could produce an often unpleasant atmosphere especially compared to Lake Chapala at 5,000 feet and no significant climatic influences from the Gulf of Mexico. So we never sold the Ajijic place and are pleased we did not. We spend our summers and falls at Lake Chapala and our winters and springs in the Chiapas Highlands. As it turns out, Highland Chiapas is subject to cold summer inundations and serious flooding and summers at Lake Chapala are splendid and beautiful. 

The lesson for us and anone else thinking of retiring in Mexico: watch out where you buy down here because it´s not as simple as you may think.


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## lagoloo

Weather is a big deal since you have to deal with it 24/7/365. There is plenty of information out there to help make a sensible decision before plunking money down on a casa. Wish we'd figured that one out before investing in our brand new SMA house on a fine September day.
Even new houses being built have no central heating and if they did, the bills would be a killer. Typically, the walls are thick and they absorb the cold, radiating it back to the blanket-wrapped residents.

Mexico is a country with many, many micro-climates. If you find yourself in a place where you can't stand most of the people, you can adopt the recluse mode and escape them, but the weather is there to stay.


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## citlali

Two dates to place people in the right event 
Indpendence war 1810 Revolution 1910


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> The winters in San Miguel discourage gardening; everything freezes. So did we. It's a fine place to visit in the spring.


Actually, I think it's probably the rare occassion when there's a freeze in SMA. Overnight lows, from what I'm recalling, are rarely below 40F in the Winter months and highs don't often drop below 70F. But, yes ... gardening in SMA is seasonal ... just as it is in so many other parts of Mexico.


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## lagoloo

Longford said:


> Actually, I think it's probably the rare occassion when there's a freeze in SMA. Overnight lows, from what I'm recalling, are rarely below 40F in the Winter months and highs don't often drop below 70F. But, yes ... gardening in SMA is seasonal ... just as it is in so many other parts of Mexico.


Having spent some time watching hail the size of golf balls on more than one occasion, I tend to question that weather report. Don't mean to quibble.
(At least not much.)


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## PanamaJack

lagoloo said:


> Having spent some time watching hail the size of golf balls on more than one occasion, I tend to question that weather report. Don't mean to quibble.
> (At least not much.)


But you do not need freezing temperatures for hail to fall... Longford's comments are spot on it usually does not freeze in SMA


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> But you do not need freezing temperatures for hail to fall...


Quite right! It's not uncommon to have hail storms in Mexico City in the summer, when the temperatures are definitely above freezing.


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## lagoloo

PanamaJack said:


> But you do not need freezing temperatures for hail to fall... Longford's comments are spot on it usually does not freeze in SMA


Okay, okay......but those are mighty frozen balls.

People don't move to SMA for the marvelous weather, but it's tolerable compared to, say, Guanajuato, which is really, really cold. Brrr.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> People don't move to SMA for the marvelous weather, but it's tolerable compared to, say, Guanajuato, which is really, really cold. Brrr.


Compared to what?


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> People don't move to SMA for the marvelous weather ... .


It's obvious, from people I've known who've lived there and from online comments I see posted elsewhere ... the weather Lakeside is a big draw for many/most people. However, I think many people do move to SMA ... for the weather, among other things. I'm supposing it's all relevant to where someone is coming from, or what they like.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=PanamaJack;4235298]But you do not need freezing temperatures for hail to fall... Longford's comments are spot on it usually does not freeze in SMA[/QUOTE]_

Actually, PJ, hail normally can be expected in the spring or summertime and not during freezing weather as yu must know. Hail often occurs in Dawg´s native South Alabama but usually in the spring or summertime. We get hail at Lake Chapala but the hail can be expected just after crops have been planted as God´s Little joke on farmers. It´s almost always warm when hail falls. As we all know, hail is simply frozen rain that failed to thaw before reaching the earth no matter the temperature at ground level.

Personally, I don´t know how anyone can live north of Birmingham unless they are compelled to do so by employment obligations.


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## lagoloo

If anyone is really interested in the weather and wants exactitude, Senor Google has the answers. I'm speaking from this human's perception. 

BTW, the reason Guanajuato is cold in the winter is that it's at an elevation of 6558 ft, according to the Senor referred to.

What I LIKE is the weather around Monterey Bay, CA. What I don't like is the cost of living there now. You do what you can.


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## coondawg

lagoloo said:


> It's a fine place to visit in the spring.


It is in deed.


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## citlali

You cannot compare the cold in Guanajuato or San Miguel to the cold in Chicago or New Yourk but when it is cold in the US people have heat in the houses , they do not in Guanajuato or San Miguel and that makes a huge difference, after a while you just do not warm up and it is very unconfortable and unpleasant.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> You cannot compare the cold in Guanajuato or San Miguel to the cold in Chicago or New Yourk but when it is cold in the US people have heat in the houses , they do not in Guanajuato or San Miguel and that makes a huge difference, after a while you just do not warm up and it is very unconfortable and unpleasant.


The answer to this dilemma is, of course, layers!


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## vantexan

I read awhile back on the Thorn Tree a post by a lady who lives in Zacatecas. She had attended dinner parties where everyone was wearing winter coats at the table.


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## citlali

yes that is the way it is done , it is awful and not at my house that is for sure.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=lagoloo;4235730]If anyone is really interested in the weather and wants exactitude, Senor Google has the answers. I'm speaking from this human's perception. 
BTW, the reason Guanajuato is cold in the winter is that it's at an elevation of 6558 ft, according to the Senor referred to.
What I LIKE is the weather around Monterey Bay, CA. What I don't like is the cost of living there now. You do what you can.[/QUOTE]_

Really, lagoloo? you like the weather around Monterey Bay? For years I lived in Santa Cruz on Monterey Bay and, of necessity, used to drive from Big Sur south of there to Salinas to Carmel to Monterey and Watsonville and through Santa Cruz and up the coast through Davenport and along the San Mateo Coast to Devil´s Slide just south of San Francisco and to this day, many years later, I vividly remember the icy cold waters of the Pacific and Monterey Bay and the cold summer fogs that rolled in off the Pacific interspersed with áreas of sunshine we called "banana belts" and these interspersed cold fogs and relatively warm áreas of sunshine could easily be predicted in the summer as I drove by on my way from Monterey Bay and points south to Devil´s Slide, a distance of some 100 miles. A fascinating, even magnificent wild ocean environment , after Santa Cruz, lonely and practically uninhabited and a marvellous place to be driving about but I never thought of the foggy Monterey and San Mateo coasts as having nice weather and I´m talking summertime here. The wild and stormy winters driving those wind-lashed two lane roads were even another adventure. I swear there were times when I encountered no oncoming traffc between Davenport and Half Moon Bay, a distance of some 60 miles. Repeated adventures but the cliamate was a challenge - praiseworthy only as edgy.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> The answer to this dilemma is, of course, layers!


Wearing layers when outdoors works of course. But having to wear layers and gloves or mittens indoors as well is not very comfortable. That is the reason Alaska, where I grew up, is more comfortable in the winter than Querétaro where I spent part of one winter. In Alaska the houses are insulated and heated. In Querétaro they are not.


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## citlali

yes try to knit or embroider with mittens!


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## lagoloo

Dawg: I didn't say the weather was nice. I said I like it.
I like the winds, the storms, and whatever comes with it.
Frankly, it's kind of boring here, weather wise. But it'll do .


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> Dawg: I didn't say the weather was nice. I said I like it.
> I like the winds, the storms, and whatever comes with it.
> Frankly, it's kind of boring here, weather wise. But it'll do .



If you were in Mexico City, you could just step outside and find a howling rainstorm at your doorstep!


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## makaloco

TundraGreen said:


> Wearing layers when outdoors works of course. But having to wear layers and gloves or mittens indoors as well is not very comfortable.


I find the opposite to be true, in a way. Indoors you can toss your discarded layers on a chair or put them away. Outdoors, presuming you're away from home, you have to schlep them around with you when you're not wearing them.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=lagoloo;4237634]Dawg: I didn't say the weather was nice. I said I like it.
I like the winds, the storms, and whatever comes with it.
Frankly, it's kind of boring here, weather wise. But it'll do .[/QUOTE]_

ÖK.lagoloo, I get it. We share a love of driving wind and rain off the sea accompanied by giant waves crashing below. My wife and I shared a cottage on the ocean south of Devil´s Slide for the better part of a decade back in the 1980s and had I known you then we would have shared a rum in the sea spray on my seaside deck (or whatever you drink) about 1985 but; too late now. 

Both the Gulf in my native Alabama and the Northern California Coast provided many hours of entertaining winds, rains and occasional enormous breakers for my entertainment over the years. Pass the Havana Club.


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## coondawg

Hey, Guys ! I grew up just outside Houston and hurricane season was my favorite season of all. Wind, rain, thunder, lightning. The Mexican rain/weather has been really disappointing.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> Hey, Guys ! I grew up just outside Houston and hurricane season was my favorite season of all. Wind, rain, thunder, lightning. The Mexican rain/weather has been really disappointing.


But you don't have earthquakes in Houston. Talk about exciting!


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## coondawg

You definitely have a valid point ! Think I'll just stay with the hurricanes.


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## lagoloo

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=lagoloo;4237634]Dawg: I didn't say the weather was nice. I said I like it.
> I like the winds, the storms, and whatever comes with it.
> Frankly, it's kind of boring here, weather wise. But it'll do ._




ÖK.lagoloo, I get it. We share a love of driving wind and rain off the sea accompanied by giant waves crashing below. My wife and I shared a cottage on the ocean south of Devil´s Slide for the better part of a decade back in the 1980s and had I known you then we would have shared a rum in the sea spray on my seaside deck (or whatever you drink) about 1985 but; too late now. 

Both the Gulf in my native Alabama and the Northern California Coast provided many hours of entertaining winds, rains and occasional enormous breakers for my entertainment over the years. Pass the Havana Club.[/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn straight. If we could have found such a spot on the coast of Mexico......we'd 'a been there.
The hot and humid just doesn't cut it, so Lakeside will do. But love them enormous breakers. I'll never forget the time a man who'd bought a house on the cliffs christened it as it went down.... with champagne. Real class.


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## citlali

The only nice things about the hurricanes are the hurricane parties at the beach but after wards is a drag, no electicity no AC and muggy weather so we needs that.


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## coondawg

citlali said:


> The only nice things about the hurricanes are the hurricane parties at the beach but after wards is a drag, no electicity no AC and muggy weather so we needs that.


You are right, but up to the very end it is all very magnificent ! :rain:


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## Hound Dog

_


coondawg said:



Hey, Guys ! I grew up just outside Houston and hurricane season was my favorite season of all. Wind, rain, thunder, lightning. The Mexican rain/weather has been really disappointing. 

Click to expand...

_One problem with really serious hurricanes is that they tend to arrive in September, the most miserable month of the year on the U.S. Coast in terms of heat and humidity and leave the local inhabitants without air conditioning or even electricity for fans for an often indefinite period of time and then there are perhaps weeks of a preview of living in hell. Everything mildews in the sultry climate including the people.

So, anyway, after a couple of years in Mobile enjoying the hurricanes on the beach at Dauphin Island with my new bride, we decided to move to San Francisco and enjoy earthquakes. My wife was on the road in Denver during the last biq quake in (I think) the 80s and having dinner there when the last big quake hit the city. Her dinner companion in Denver remarked how fortunate they all were not to be in San Francisco at that moment and my wife responded; "Perhaps, but my husband, dogs home and all my earthly belongings are there right in the middle of the action so whether I am fortunate or not has yet to be determined."

As it happens,I was g in San Jose some 60 miles away from home in San Francisco when that rather frightening earthquake hit and it was really spooky what with everything on the expressway swaying scarily but that was not as scary as the drive back to San Francisco on the lonely coast road as the freeways had been closed for inspection. There was no electricity and, as I entered San Francico from the coast and drove to our home in North Beach in a dark city with gangs roaming about and fires consuming parts of the exclusive Marina District, I must admit to having been a bit apprehensive but everything turned out OK. 

Living in San Francico in a quake- prone área for some 30 years came out OK so we retired to Chiapas; the most quake prone región in Mexico but also with hurricanes. What the hell; at least Chiapas is but in the least bit boring.


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## exclusiva

This weather conversation is interesting. We, too, looked at Chapala and San Miguel and other parts of Mexico as places to spend our winter sojourns, and decided against any place where the homes came equipped with electric heaters or fireplaces to beat the cold. Like Chapala and San Miguel. We also regularly checked the winter temps of these areas and noticed that they were often in the 40s or even occasionally in the 30s at night. So these two otherwise attractive locations became a no-go zone for at least two Canucks wanting to get far away from freezing winter temps that required heaters and coats. 
Coming from Canada, we had no intention of wintering in an area that was potentially as cold as where we were coming from.
So we bought a beach lot in San Bruno, on the Gulf Coast, about a 40 minute drive north east of Merida and about 20 minutes east of Progreso, and we built a home. The winters are wonderfully warm there except for the occasional norte when the temps might dip into the low 60s or high 50s at night for a couple of days. The summers are hot there, but the ocean breezes cut the heat and we spend our summers in Canada, anyway. We love it and really feel like we are living in the tropics. 
We can't understand why anyone fleeing cold winter climates would end up in another location with the very real potential for cold winter temps. From the frying pan into the fire, only colder. BRRR.
To each their own, I guess . . .


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## Isla Verde

exclusiva said:


> We can't understand why anyone fleeing cold winter climates would end up in another location with the very real potential for cold winter temps. From the frying pan into the fire, only colder. BRRR.
> To each their own, I guess . . .


Indeed. Keep in mind that not everyone moving to Mexico from areas that have cold winters is looking a place that is always warm. As for me, coming from the East coast of the US (Philly and NYC), the slight dip in temperature we have in Mexico City during the so-called winter is nothing like the freezing temperatures and snowstorms so common to the places I've spent most of my life before moving here.


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## lagoloo

I love living by the ocean, but those hot and humid places are the deal killer. You can strip down to nekkid and still be too hot, but if it's chilly....you can put on a sweater and be just right. Logic dictates:..............lol.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Indeed. Keep in mind that not everyone moving to Mexico from areas that have cold winters is looking a place that is always warm. As for me, coming from the East coast of the US (Philly and NYC), the slight dip in temperature we have in Mexico City during the so-called winter is nothing like the freezing temperatures and snowstorms so common to the places I've spent most of my life before moving here.


Maybe your apartment is insulated better than some places in Mexico (city and country). I had some friends from Idaho, not a state known for its mild temperatures. They spent several winters in Queretaro which is lower and presumably warmer than Mexico City. They complained that one of the winters they spent in Qro was the coldest they had ever been. The highest temperatures were 5 C (41 F) to 10 C (50 F) both inside and outside for weeks. They had to go to bed to get warm. Outside those are pretty mild temperatures, inside not so mild.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> I love living by the ocean, but those hot and humid places are the deal killer. You can strip down to nekkid and still be too hot, but if it's chilly....you can put on a sweater and be just right. Logic dictates:..............lol.


Exactly. That's why I've always preferred cooler to warmer climates.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Maybe your apartment is insulated better than some places in Mexico (city and country). I had some friends from Idaho, not a state known for its mild temperatures. They spent several winters in Queretaro which is lower and presumably warmer than Mexico City. They complained that one of the winters they spent in Qro was the coldest they had ever been. The highest temperatures were 5 C (41 F) to 10 C (50 F) both inside and outside for weeks. They had to go to bed to get warm. Outside those are pretty mild temperatures, inside not so mild.


It never gets quite that cold in Mexico City in the winter as far as I can remember. I live in an old rather shabby building, so I doubt it's very well insulated. I do get sun in my place because I'm on the top floor, and that helps to warm things up during the daylight hours. At night I may need to turn on my tiny space heater (my apartment is tiny too) but not always. I still think that layers and cups of hot tea are the way to go!:tea:


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## exclusiva

Everyone weighs situations differently. In our case - keeping in mind that one of the main reasons we escape the freezing Canadian winters is precisely so we don't have to fire up heaters or put on coats or sweaters to warm up. Otherwise, we'd just stay home - we find it makes the most sense to us to actually spend our winters where the climate is warm enough to forgo all this stuff.
In the winter, it rarely gets too hot or humid at our beach home, particularly since we are right on the ocean, although summers can be hot in nearby Merida. We have air conditioning in the master bedroom, and I used it once this winter to see if it worked.
Everyone does what suits them and what worked best for us was to find a winter home that was consistently warm. Where no heaters or coats are required and air conditioning is not necessary.
It makes no sense to us to spend a considerable amount of money to escape cold winters only to find ourselves in cool temps all bundled up in coats and socks, huddled around the fireplace or heaters. Like I say, if we want to do that, we'll just stay home.


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## lagoloo

What's interesting about all this, is that when we lived in a "coolish" climate in the states, in winter, we were used to ticking up the thermostat for the central heating unit in our house. We took it for granted. Fireplaces were for "atmosphere" and cozying up to. People wore the same clothing winter and summer indoors.
Fast forward to the Mexico move.
What thermostats? What central heating? What cheap and reliable public utilities?
And so on. Enter the FUNCTIONAL fireplace, the closing off of unused rooms, blankets in the stairwell and cozy wearable blankets for reading and TV watching. Enter fuzzy sheepskin slippers and boots.
One of many, many changes. 
Summertime: Enter the solar panels and the room A/C minisplits; closing hot rooms and just getting used to the weather. Different sets of clothes for the season.

And of course, we all have different personal comfort zones. A good thing, or some places would be way overcrowded.


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## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> Maybe your apartment is insulated better than some places in Mexico (city and country). I had some friends from Idaho, not a state known for its mild temperatures. They spent several winters in Queretaro which is lower and presumably warmer than Mexico City. They complained that one of the winters they spent in Qro was the coldest they had ever been. The highest temperatures were 5 C (41 F) to 10 C (50 F) both inside and outside for weeks. They had to go to bed to get warm. Outside those are pretty mild temperatures, inside not so mild.


It's not rare for overnight Winter temperatures in the D.F. to drop just below 40F and at that altitude the cold can penetrate to the bone ... if you're not properly dressed/blanketed. I always had a small space heater I'd wheel into the bedroom or bathroom - as required. Daytime temps in the Winter get into the low 70's so it's pleasant most of the time. Now, move over to the Toluca area in the State of Mexico ... and you'll learn about cold!


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## coondawg

lagoloo said:


> What thermostats? What central heating? What cheap and reliable public utilities?
> .


Surely you jest. Remember, CFE is a World Class Utility. !:rockon:


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## TundraGreen

coondawg said:


> Surely you jest. Remember, CFE is a World Class Utility. !:rockon:


Reliable? No one would accuse CFE of that, at least not in my neighborhood. But cheap? Let's look at the numbers.

My recent CFE bill was $179 mxn for 186 kWh, a rate of $0.97 mxn/kWh = $0.074 usd/kWh.
This includes 150kWh of basic, 36 of intermediate and added IVA, and a subtracted gov't subsidy.

Pacific Gas and Electric in California, where I once paid electric bills, charges $0.14 usd/kWh for baseline usage (up to about 1000 kWh/month if I read it correctly).

Xcel Energy in Colorado, where I also once paid for electricity, charges $0.046 plus a service charge which would bring the rate for 186 kWh to about $0.08 usd/kWh.

So CFE $0.074
PG&E $0.14
Xcel $0.08

CFE doesn't look too bad as long as you stay in the basic and intermediate rates. If you go over the basic and intermediate threshold (300 kWh/2 months), CFE gets more expensive, a lot more expensive. The government subsidy goes away causing the kWh rate to increase by a factor of 4 or 5, plus they add a fixed fee.


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## makaloco

lagoloo said:


> What's interesting about all this, is that when we lived in a "coolish" climate in the states, in winter, we were used to ticking up the thermostat for the central heating unit in our house. We took it for granted. Fireplaces were for "atmosphere" and cozying up to. People wore the same clothing winter and summer indoors.


My US central heating acclimatization ended in the era of the fuel crisis, Jimmy Carter in a cardigan, and thermostats set at 68º. Since then, with the exception of two years in a building with radiators, I've been a total stranger to the concept. So when I visit family in the US with their central heat and AC, I need light t-shirts and flip-flops indoors in winter and a hoodie, sweat pants, and socks in summer. To go outdoors, I actually need to change clothes. Here in La Paz I'm fine with winter clothes in winter and summer clothes in summer. If I get too cold, I put on more clothes, do something active, or go out in the sun. If I get too hot, I take off clothes, stop moving, or go swimming. One thing I absolutely LOVE about the climate here is that I can keep windows open 95% of the time. It's the main reason I've resisted getting any form of AC.


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## TundraGreen

makaloco said:


> My US central heating acclimatization ended in the era of the fuel crisis, Jimmy Carter in a cardigan, and thermostats set at 68º. Since then, with the exception of two years in a building with radiators, I've been a total stranger to the concept. So when I visit family in the US with their central heat and AC, I need light t-shirts and flip-flops indoors in winter and a hoodie, sweat pants, and socks in summer. To go outdoors, I actually need to change clothes. Here in La Paz I'm fine with winter clothes in winter and summer clothes in summer. If I get too cold, I put on more clothes, do something active, or go out in the sun. If I get too hot, I take off clothes, stop moving, or go swimming. One thing I absolutely LOVE about the climate here is that I can keep windows open 95% of the time. It's the main reason I've resisted getting any form of AC.


I am with you 100% on that. All the doors in my house open to interior patios. You have to go through patios open to the sky to go from one room to another. The only time I close the doors between rooms and the outdoors is when I leave the house and lock everything up. When I am home all the doors are open. It is one of the best parts of living here. 

I used to leave them open even when I left the house, but last summer someone dropped down from the roof into a patio and helped themselves to whatever they could carry. So now I lock all the doors when I leave. Except the kitchen. I haven't closed that door for years. If they want a refrigerator badly enough to steal one, they are welcome to it.


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## makaloco

Same here. One day somebody got onto my back patio and tried to break into the house. They didn't get in, and all they got from the patio was an ancient, barely functional camera, but it made me more careful or paranoid, depending on how you look at it. I had an alarm system installed but wouldn't let them wire the windows and had them wire the back screen door so I could leave the solid door open. The alarm company thought I was insane, but I wish I'd done the same with the front door (and still may).


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## TundraGreen

makaloco said:


> Same here. One day somebody got onto my back patio and tried to break into the house. They didn't get in, and all they got from the patio was an ancient, barely functional camera, but it made me more careful or paranoid, depending on how you look at it. I had an alarm system installed but wouldn't let them wire the windows and had them wire the back screen door so I could leave the solid door open. The alarm company thought I was insane, but I wish I'd done the same with the front door (and still may).


I thought about installing an alarm system but haven't done it. What I did do was install concertina wire around the patios to make it more difficult to get from the roof into the patios. Nothing is foolproof though. The fence installers pointed out that people can just throw a rug over the concertina wire. But maybe it makes me a less desirable target.


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## kcowan

We have black iron doors that enclose everything so we can leave with all the doors open all the time. Some are fixed and others moveable. Never trust being safe above the street. The thieves climb like monkeys. We are in an older colonial neighborhood downtown. Our cat loves to be able to go outside anytime.

When we have to close the doors and put on the AC, we are ready to go north. (May 15th to Nov 15th in PV.) If we were staying year round, we would probably buy into one of those enclaves on the beach. We have never been on DAC but we would if we stayed all year long. The close to zero draw in June through October keeps our average low enough. We get close to 1000 pesos a month in prime season from CFE. 3 fridges, fans, dishwasher, stereos and satellite receivers. Water heater and cooking on stove and BBQ with propane. We have the clothes washer/electric dryer on a separate meter (long story).


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## Hound Dog

_


TundraGreen said:



I thought about installing an alarm system but haven't done it. What I did do was install concertina wire around the patios to make it more difficult to get from the roof into the patios. Nothing is foolproof though. The fence installers pointed out that people can just throw a rug over the concertina wire. But maybe it makes me a less desirable target.

Click to expand...

_
We moved here to Ajijic on Lake Chapala in 2001. A nice and tranquil town then and we did nothing for years to enhace security except to raise the stone walls from about 4 feet to about 8 feet. Then. about 2005, Ajijic turned into a crime-ridden craphole and, on top of the 8 foot wall we installed three feet of concertina wire and alarmed the entire property with motion and heat sensitive invisible barriers that, once breached, not only scream sirens like the hounds from hell but immediately alert the local alarm company which calls us immediately if the alarm is actívated and, if we don´t respond, comes to our door with the pólice if called for. 

We have a similar constantly monitored alarm system at our home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas even though in San Cristóbal our Mexican neigbors are always on the alert and will beat the crap out of anyone roaming around and not known to belong there. Mexican rssidents in places like Chiapas have no sense of humor when strangres lurk about. People in Ajijic. especially foreigners , hide under their beds if their tranquility is compromised and only comd out when the coast is clear. 

We would neveer be without that alarm system again and at least twice in the past few years it has prevented the ransacking of our home while we were absent. Those are the home invasión attempts with which we are familiar. Concertina wire without an effective, monitored and movement and heat csensitive alarm system is a bad joke. I have peronnly winessed Young men about here climb over concerina wire in seconds just to lt me in my home when I had fogotten my keys annd needed help These kids could steal your socks while you were wearing shoes and you would later wonder where thsoe socks had gone.s


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## kcowan

Individual casa ownership, especially if only partially occupied during the year, is not recommended in most areas. Hound Dog has found a good solution.

Penthouses and individual homes often go begging on the resale market because of security issues. Many of the penthouses do not lend themselves to comprehensive security solutions. Response times from security companies is a key issue. Burglars are not shy about using knives on residents. And this can happen before the company responds.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=kcowan;4272914]Individual casa ownership, especially if only partially occupied during the year, is not recommended in most areas. Hound Dog has found a good solution.

Penthouses and individual homes often go begging on the resale market because of security issues. Many of the penthouses do not lend themselves to comprehensive security solutions. Response times from security companies is a key issue. Burglars are not shy about using knives on residents. And this can happen before the company responds.[/QUOTE]_

Well said, kcowan. We resolved the issue of non-occupancy with property managers, housekeepers, gardeners and constantly and seriously monitored alarm systems at both Lake Chapala and in Chiapas both homes from which we may be absent for months. These services, which would cost a fortune in the U.S. or France, are not expensive here and, in fact, are damn cheap; another reason for retiring in Mexico.

My wife, with whom I have lived for many years, is from France, a Latin country and, when we were living in California many years ago, I suggested that we buy a retirement home available to us on a large property directly on the Loire River (or maybe it was the Cher - one forgets over time) at a price that you would not believe today. Peanuts. Today it woild be priced at a king´s ransom. She responded that I, who had been raised in Alabama, did not understand the laws regarding property ownership in France and the last thing one wanted to do in France was to buy real estate and leave it abandoned over the years until ready to retire. Squatter´s rights exist in the U.S. and France but in France, and I believe most Latin countries, one does not buy property and leave it unoccupied and fallow for years or that property is game for squatters passing down the road and if they occupy the property and, especially if they farm it even modestly, you who bought the place some time ago may be history and it will be their property - no contest.

Now, in Alabama when I was a Yyung boy, these matters were settled at the point of a shotgun but that doesn´t work as well in 2014 as it did in 1952.

Despite the great deal on a beautiful riverfront property, we declined and that´s a good thing because we ended up in Mexico which beats the hell out of living in the Loire Valley where you freeze your butt off under overcast much of the yaer so remember, despite land ownership issues, none of us really knows at age 35 where we may wish to be at age 75. Actually, at 75, we s if in good health, may simply wish to be whereever that may be except, perhaps, Hell or Texas.


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## mattoleriver

Hound Dog said:


> Actually, at 75, we s if in good health, may simply wish to be whereever that may be except, perhaps, Hell or Texas.


I've heard speculation that there may be interesting companionship to be found in Hell.

George


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=mattoleriver;4274962]I've heard speculation that there may be interesting companionship to be found in Hell.
George[/QUOTE]_

Perhaps in Hell, George, but in Texas? My guess, having driven through there to get from Mobile Bay to Santa Monica Bay and back and forth a few times over the years , is that, after a day or two driving at Godspeeed through West Texas with never an end in sight, even the lizzards seem to speak English , are quite articulate and are becoming sexually attractive. That´s the only reason anyone stops to linger there for a time before reaching New Mexico or Louisiana for respite.

Hell would be a relief.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> [
> 
> . Actually, at 75, we s if in good health, may simply wish to be whereever that may be except, perhaps, Hell or Texas.


Dawg, you sure know how to hurt a Texan. I was putting you in there with Davy Crockett, but maybe I need to rethunk that. I thought he said a mouth full when he said somethin like " You may all go to Hell, and as for me , I am going to Texas". Davy knew Texas was God's Country, and was willing to cash in all his chips at the Alamo to prove it.
In Amarillo, they tell a story that God roughed out West Texas late one evening, and was tired, so He decided to go to bed and finish it the next morning. When He got up the next morning and looked at his work, He decided that there was just too much work to do to make it liveable, so He decided to create people who love West Texas the way it is to live there. And, He did.
Texas is a whole "other" country, and offers something for everyone. We (real Texans) try not to let that get out, as we already have a mess of them Damn Yankees and they show no appreciation for our history and glory. (You can probably count the exceptions on your fingers, and don't have to use your toes.)


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## RVGRINGO

We used to spend a lot of time in Texas and love it; however, the people are a bit strange. 
Come to think of it, they think everyone else is strange, too.


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## coondawg

RVGRINGO said:


> We used to spend a lot of time in Texas and love it; however, the people are a bit strange.
> Come to think of it, they think everyone else is strange, too.


I believe both of those statements are accurate.  Are you leaving Mexico, for Texas?


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> We used to spend a lot of time in Texas and love it; however, the people are a bit strange.
> Come to think of it, they think everyone else is strange, too.


Speaking of strange people:


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## kcowan

Hound Dog
We visited Chenonceau on the Cher on our way from Paris to Nice on the last trip (also did Normandy on a side trip) via Bordeau country and I can see the attraction. Good to know about the ownership challenges. Our neighbour in PV is from Paris. Neat lady!

(We met a couple from Texas who bought a house for $125k behind Walmart. They were enjoying the savings from living in PV! One of my best friends from the 80s lives in Plano, ex-Nortel.)


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## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> Dawg, you sure know how to hurt a Texan. I was putting you in there with Davy Crockett, but maybe I need to rethunk that. I thought he said a mouth full when he said somethin like " You may all go to Hell, and as for me , I am going to Texas". Davy knew Texas was God's Country, and was willing to cash in all his chips at the Alamo to prove it.
> In Amarillo, they tell a story that God roughed out West Texas late one evening, and was tired, so He decided to go to bed and finish it the next morning. When He got up the next morning and looked at his work, He decided that there was just too much work to do to make it liveable, so He decided to create people who love West Texas the way it is to live there. And, He did.
> Texas is a whole "other" country, and offers something for everyone. We (real Texans) try not to let that get out, as we already have a mess of them Damn Yankees and they show no appreciation for our history and glory. (You can probably count the exceptions on your fingers, and don't have to use your toes.)


A good Texas tale, cd making it imperative for me to try to one-up you.

As you may recall, or actually may not recall since you are from the sovereign land of Texas, God also ceated the Mississippi Territory but was so embarrassed by the outcome that he created the state of Alabama to divide the territory and to try to at least lessen the humiliation by creating two distinct political entities; one at least marginally more tolerable than the other and then, in the 1950s and 60s, along came George Wallace who became governor of Alabama (The Guvnor - "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever) and God was once again so humiliated that he at least temporarily thought of crashing the whole former Mississippi Territory into the sea but his advisors warned him that such a drastic measure might cause much of the midwestern United States to collapse into the Gulf of Mexico so he (fooloshly) relented out of concern for a major catastrophe In retrospect, who would even miss those dull midwestern states? A shortsighted decisión.

I am actually quite ford of Texas in its primary role as a land bridge between Mobile Bay and Santa Monica Bay. The fact that no deserving vegetation successfully grows there made the construction of I-10 easier so Dawg could leave Mobile, stomp on the accelerator and arrive in Santa Monica within a few days. Were it not for Texas, I´d have had to round the canal to get there. A fine place for transit at least. Just keep moving fast before the mesquite bushes grab your feet and devour them.


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## RVGRINGO

coondawg said:


> I believe both of those statements are accurate.  Are you leaving Mexico, for Texas?


Nope. We have almost crossed it off our list of possibilities.


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