# No change then



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

As most of us living out here know the Spanish are very critical of the lack of Spanish spoken by UK people. Being careful how I phrase this I am amazed by the number of UK people who take the attitude of 'I won't talk Spanish and don't want to learn it, I will just speak louder and slower, they always get it in the end'

This was in the Telegraph this morning which tells us that things are not going to get any better. By the way my Spanish is bad but Helen and I can communicate and it is getting better.

*"Lost in translation: pupils desert languages*
The number of pupils studying foreign languages fell to a record low this year, leading to fresh warnings that the subject is in terminal decline.
Figures show that overall exam entries collapsed by almost 12 per cent in 2011. Just 307,386 pupils gained a GCSE in a foreign language, compared with 348,528 last year and 559,115 a decade ago — an overall drop of 45 per cent.
It means less than half of pupils study languages to a decent level between the age of 14 and 16. The decline was marked in French and German, with both being named among the fastest declining subjects at GCSE level."

So much for an integrated Europe as communication is one of the most vital tools to a common understanding!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> As most of us living out here know the Spanish are very critical of the lack of Spanish spoken by UK people. Being careful how I phrase this I am amazed by the number of UK people who take the attitude of 'I won't talk Spanish and don't want to learn it, I will just speak louder and slower, they always get it in the end'
> 
> This was in the Telegraph this morning which tells us that things are not going to get any better. By the way my Spanish is bad but Helen and I can communicate and it is getting better.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. I thought there had been a push towards doing more foreign language study???
Very sad, and GCSE is nowhere near being able to communicate fluently anyway. It just means you've got the basics covered. A few years ago I tried to get an exchange set up with my daughter and my old secondary school (where I did CSE Spanish, classes twice/ three times a week). I was told they had an hour every fortnight!! The emails we got were absolute rubbish, unreadable translations from Google.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

They are also cutting funding for language evening classes at CFEs etc in favour of vocational courses like Beauty Therapy.

I did my GCSE iat the local CFE and in 2007 they doubled the price and the minimum number of enrolments rose from 6 to 12. The following year it didn´t run.

People would rather learn eyebrow-threading than a language I guess.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Eh what's eyebrow threading, I've got this image in my mind and it's painful and not nice....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> Eh what's eyebrow threading, I've got this image in my mind and it's painful and not nice....


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Unbelievable, must try it I don't think! Sorry, back to topic!


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## andmac (Nov 9, 2010)

I did GCSE and A level (and went on to University) in French and Spanish in the '90s.

Anyway, two years a go working in Further Education, I got the opportunity to deliver Modern Languages courses.

I read the syllabus for French and Spanish A Level. Imagine my surprise that the French verbs "Avior" and "Etre" and the Spanish verbs "Ser" and "Estar" were on the Al level syllabus!

What are they teaching kids on the GCSE? Without these verbs, I would have thought it is fairly impossible to communicate effectively in either language!

It appears to me that as mentioned people want to offer courses in hairdressing and beauty, and no disrespect to the teachers of these subjects, but modern foreign languages are a far more difficult subject.

I also suspect that a lack of people taking these subjects has resulted in a lack of quality teaching staff. This may lead to a vortex of permanent decline.

It is sad to see this, especially when living here and working with Spanish people who cannot get enough of language learning!

Also starting to learn a new language at eleven is a waste of time. It is too late. In Britain if the educational authorities want people to learn modern languages, they should start them off at age six or seven.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

andmac said:


> I did GCSE and A level (and went on to University) in French and Spanish in the '90s.
> 
> Anyway, two years a go working in Further Education, I got the opportunity to deliver Modern Languages courses.
> 
> ...


I see your point about basics being on the a level courses - the same happens here in English classes at school. Every year they seem to start with the verb "to be". Actually, it has to be said that I don't think my daughter did it last year in first year of Bachillerato, but I think they did do hobbies and past times in the first unit for the umpteenth time.

However, I don't think I agree that the courses in hairdressing and beauty are not so difficult - I think they just require different skills


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

andmac said:


> I did GCSE and A level (and went on to University) in French and Spanish in the '90s.
> 
> Anyway, two years a go working in Further Education, I got the opportunity to deliver Modern Languages courses.
> 
> ...


I can tell you what they're NOT teaching in schools.........

they aren't teaching pronunciation - as basic as silent 'h' - let alone _sílaba tónica_ & how/when to use tildes

they aren't teaching how to use _gustar_

they _are_ sort of teaching _ser_ & _estar_, but without explanation of when to use them - except that _ser_ is permanent & _estar_ is temporary..............which of course isn't quite right


the oral exam is a joke - they are given a list of topics to choose from well in advance so that they can prepare their little 'speech' - they will then be questioned on that topic & a couple of others............but with questions _they themselves _ have submitted to the examiner

the examiner might ask a couple of other questions, but they won't be 'wobbly' ones - they will be starightforward

one of the written ones is 'tick the box' & for the standard level main written paper (as opposed to higher level) a lot of the questions are written in english & answers are written in english............even with the higher level some of it is

the aural exam is possibly the hardest - but again, most of it is tick the box

I don't know how anyone who does any work at all can fail tbh


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## andmac (Nov 9, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I can tell you what they're NOT teaching in schools.........
> 
> they aren't teaching pronunciation - as basic as silent 'h' - let alone _sílaba tónica_ & how/when to use tildes
> 
> ...


Wow. It makes you feel old though when you start realising that "back in my day, exams were proper exams"!

Listening, writing and speaking exams were just that. All conducted in the language of study.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Notwithstanding its shortcomings as an academic qualification, I would still recommend doing the GCSE course as an evening class for adults planning to move to Spain (provided they can still find one!). 

It covers the four areas of language-learning - reading, writing, speaking and listening - all of which you need to get to grips with if you live here. If you try and learn on your own with CDs and books, it's too easy to skip the bits you find difficult.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Notwithstanding its shortcomings as an academic qualification, I would still recommend doing the GCSE course as an evening class for adults planning to move to Spain (provided they can still find one!).
> 
> It covers the four areas of language-learning - reading, writing, speaking and listening - all of which you need to get to grips with if you live here. If you try and learn on your own with CDs and books, it's too easy to skip the bits you find difficult.


I think the GCSE is a great base to move on from - it's just not the be all and end all. You just need to realise when you come to live here with your GCSE under your belt, that this is where the real learning-to-cope-with- the-language-for-everyday -life begins.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Notwithstanding its shortcomings as an academic qualification, I would still recommend doing the GCSE course as an evening class for adults planning to move to Spain (provided they can still find one!).
> 
> It covers the four areas of language-learning - reading, writing, speaking and listening - all of which you need to get to grips with if you live here. If you try and learn on your own with CDs and books, it's too easy to skip the bits you find difficult.


yes, agreed - it's a great starting point - just as long as you don't think you'll be fluent at the end of it and able to manage in all situations.

the range of topics & therefore vocab is quite narrow - and naturally geared to teenagers


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I taught French and German for years both to GCSE students and for a while at adult ed. classes. 
The school I led began teaching French at age four - it was a Primary/Middle School - and we had a good success rate and excellent OFSTED results.
There are inherent problems in teaching MFL in the U.K. One frequently heard complaint is 'What's the point? Where we go everyone speaks English' which is true for the many who still use package holidays mainly to hotels patronised by Brits. Many of the families whose children I taught couldn't afford a trip to the Isle of Wight let alone Tenerife or Aya Napia. Learning a foreign language was, understandably, seen as a waste of time.
Many parents were put off because of their own experience of being taught French, often by poorly-qualified teachers who emphasised correct grammar at the expense of communication, which is after all the prime function of language.
At my highly academic school I was taught (note I do not say 'learned') French and German plus Latin and Ancient Greek. Looking back, it seems we were taught the two modern languages chiefly so we could read Moliere and Goethe rather than communicate with living French or German people. I didn't speak French with any fluency until I went to France and learnt that you didn't get guillotined for omitting the 'ne' as in 'Je veux pas'....in fact most people spoke like that.
I had a cushy job in Prague teaching English to a group of mature students at the Czech Statistical Office. All had good command of written English but were scared to speak in case they made grammatical errors. I managed to get them over this by speaking in my truly awful and ungrammatical but understandable Czech and asking 'Did I make mistakes? to which they replied 'Yes, many' after which I asked 'But did you understand?' to which they also replied 'Yes'. 
'Then speak to me and we'll sort out your more important mistakes' was my response.
Grammar etc. is very important but imo the most important factors in learning any MFL are communication and confidence.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

There is a big difference between learning a language at school and learning one because you are moving to a foreign country; the latter has obvious advantages - the former very few. 

I have worked in more than twenty countries where the language used was always English. I ran courses in IT and only once needed an interpreter and that was in rural Poland. My conclusion from that experience is that the only language which it would have been useful for me to learn at school would have been Polish.

The majority of people will probably not use a foreign language they have learned at school - so why bother? (not a rhetorical question by the way).

But of course if the foreign language you learn at school is English - now that's an entirely different matter


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> There is a big difference between learning a language at school and learning one because you are moving to a foreign country; the latter has obvious advantages - the former very few.
> 
> I have worked in more than twenty countries where the language used was always English. I ran courses in IT and only once needed an interpreter and that was in rural Poland. My conclusion from that experience is that the only language which it would have been useful for me to learn at school would have been Polish.
> 
> ...


Judging by my time there,most of which was spent in extremely rural parts of the country some Poles might themselves need interpreters when travelling in rural Poland


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2011)

the ex colonist might argue that the UK'er might learn to speak better English:

a video might explain how us yankees feel about it:

Extremely British - Don' you go Rounin' Roun to Re Ro [HD] OFFICIAL TRAILER 2011 - YouTube


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

andmac said:


> I read the syllabus for French and Spanish A Level. Imagine my surprise that the French verbs "Avior" and "Etre" and the Spanish verbs "Ser" and "Estar" were on the Al level syllabus!


The schools around here use some really crappy "English" text books from OUP (yes, THE OUP) and the kids are never taught the proper conjugation of the present tenses of any of the auxiliary verbs such as to be, to have, will, etc. it is all "I'd, I'm. I've, You're, it's, I'll you'll, etc."


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

We, as I guess of an older generation, we must remember that in our school and higher education days it was actually about that, education. Now it is about bums on seats, number of passes at a good grade and that dreaded subject money which in many cases, certainly in higher education, is based on passing.
What can we expect when education is about the commercial aspects rather than the quality or even the quantity. In the college where I taught just before leaving the UK a full time NVQ course could be done with 5 hours per week actual lectures. This meant that the college could actually run multiple courses per week.
We also have the conceptual problem that many UK people work on the principle of 'why bother, they all speak English anyway' and to a great extent they are embarrassingly right.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

folklore said:


> the ex colonist might argue that the UK'er might learn to speak better English:
> 
> a video might explain how us yankees feel about it:
> 
> Extremely British - Don' you go Rounin' Roun to Re Ro [HD] OFFICIAL TRAILER 2011 - YouTube


Before one of the real pedants jumps on you it should be:

A video might explain how *we* yankees feel about it:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Before* one of the real pedants *jumps on you it should be:
> 
> A video might explain how *we* yankees feel about it:


you mean there are more??


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I think the biggest obstacle when learning to speak a foreign language (or even English, for that matter) is the pronunciation. In particular how the sounds are made in that language. When I was project manager for a computer auditing firm, I was frequently off to other countries with a team of auditors, most of them, unable to speak the necessary foreign languages and on one occasion I was in Douarnenez in Brittany but, since we didn't have many machines to audit, my team consisted just of myself and one other. I have always made it a habit to carry at least a phrase book with me on the 'just in case' basis. On the flight to Paris, he borrowed the phrase book and I didn't get it back until we were back in UK. 

He was asking me about pronunciation (he started with 'je') so I told him that to get the the correct sounds he needed to push his lips forward for the 'j' and push his voice back towards the throat for the 'e'. Of course when he tried it, it came out quite passably as 'je'. His comment was that after having had 5 years learning French at school, he had never been taught that.

Getting the pronunciation correct helps to give confidence to progress.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

I have been learning Spanish for three years now. In the first year we had one term at the local college and then the course stopped through lack of numbers, so three of the students, including me, persuaded the tutor to teach us at her house. We made sure that she did not lose out financially and I believe that we had more intensive tuition. The second year we managed all three terms at the college but this year was the same as the first. The college has now set new criteria both in cost and the number of pupils to make the class viable. It is unlikely to proceed.
We are very lucky to have a tutor who is willing to have a small group at her home, we can also carry on beyond the normal term time.
My Spanish is very much improved but I still have trouble hearing Spanish spoken at speed between two Spaniards. After listening to the same conversation several times I begin to get a few words. I can read articles written in Spanish and get the gist of what is written without fully understanding every word or phrase.

I am not afraid to speak Spanish and indeed when on holiday outside of the apartment I try and speak Spanish constantly, even if the waiters etc. have good English. I have a good knowledge of the tenses and verb endings but have not memorised enough of them for instant recall, similarly with vocabulary. Hopefully when I am living in Spain all these shortcomings will improve exponentially.

When I am holding a conversation, in Spanish, with my fellow students only, we understand each other totally even though it may be pigeon Spanish sometimes.

Anyway I love it and am hungry to learn more.

A couple of holidays ago I was sat next to a Englishman on the plane who was living in L'Albir. He said to me that he was once fluent in Spanish but as he did not need it where he now lived he has forgotten most of it. What a waste.:confused2:


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Before one of the real pedants jumps on you it should be:
> 
> A video might explain how *we* yankees feel about it:


jajajajaja....but you don't understand...there is more than one type of 1) yankee and 2) dialects in the US. But my day's of writing technical documents and worrying about the UK'er or Canuk to point out gramtical errors are well past.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> I taught French and German for years both to GCSE students and for a while at adult ed. classes.
> The school I led began teaching French at age four - it was a Primary/Middle School - and we had a good success rate and excellent OFSTED results.
> There are inherent problems in teaching MFL in the U.K. *One frequently heard complaint is 'What's the point? Where we go everyone speaks English' which is true for the many who still use package holidays mainly to hotels patronised by Brits.* Many of the families whose children I taught couldn't afford a trip to the Isle of Wight let alone Tenerife or Aya Napia. Learning a foreign language was, understandably, seen as a waste of time.
> Many parents were put off because of their own experience of being taught French, often by poorly-qualified teachers who emphasised correct grammar at the expense of communication, which is after all the prime function of language.
> ...


during my school years, we were never taught any language other than English and on a few trips abroad, was embarrassed by the amount of people we came across that seemed have went to the BNP school of languages ( if they don't understand English just shout louder... dem fickos will eventually get de mssge)

When I went to Hong Kong, I learned Cantonese and a small amount of Mandarin (niether has any structured grammar, but the use of "tones" for words is a migraine inducing headache).
Then we moved to Spain.... I have a very patient nieghbour, who speaks only Spanish and Valenciano and just talks.... we learn a lot from him and imo learning conversation is more important than being grammitically correct


Sure ...you'll make a blunders, but what your learn is invaluable


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

dunmovin said:


> during my school years, we were never taught any language other than English and on a few trips abroad, was embarrassed by the amount of people we came across that seemed have went to the BNP school of languages ( if they don't understand English just shout louder... dem fickos will eventually get de mssge)
> 
> When I went to Hong Kong, I learned Cantonese and a small amount of Mandarin (niether has any structured grammar, but the use of "tones" for words is a migraine inducing headache).
> Then we moved to Spain.... I have a very patient nieghbour, who speaks only Spanish and Valenciano and just talks.... *we learn a lot from him and imo learning conversation is more important than being grammitically correct*
> ...


I am learning Spanish with a Spanish man who wants to learn English. We are blundering along and both fairly well educated so we know our own languages to a decent level. We however both have the same attitude. We are not seeking perfection we are seeking communication!

Some of the replies I have seen here about the use of a particular verb, tense or word is what puts many people off learning. Speaking, reading and writing a language perfectly is probably an excellent idea. The important thing however is communication whether done poorly or perfectly.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> I am learning Spanish with a Spanish man who wants to learn English. We are blundering along and both fairly well educated so we know our own languages to a decent level. We however both have the same attitude. We are not seeking perfection we are seeking communication!
> 
> Some of the replies I have seen here about the use of a particular verb, tense or word is what puts many people off learning. Speaking, reading and writing a language perfectly is probably an excellent idea. The important thing however is communication whether done poorly or perfectly.


I actually totally agree...........when you, like me & most of my students, are wanting to learn to communicate - my adult groups are for people who don't know/care about grammar - it's not completely avoidable, but it's for sure not the be-all & end-all, and the classes are more 'talk' based than writing - with _some _written exercises to help the students remember & to give them something to look at at home

my post on using the correct 'to be' verb etc. is about people/kids learning the language to pass an exam - sadly a whole different ball-game - if you are studying a language in those circumstances then you really do need to be correct


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Some of the replies I have seen here about the use of a particular verb, tense or word is what puts many people off learning.


I find that difficult to believe! Does anyone else think that?

The more confident and fluent you become in a language, the more interested you become in its nuances. Why would that put other people off?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> Then we moved to Spain.... I have a very patient nieghbour, who speaks only Spanish and Valenciano and just talks.... we learn a lot from him and imo learning conversation is more important than being grammitically correct
> 
> 
> Sure ...you'll make a blunders, but what your learn is invaluable


Unfortunately, as a child you have to learn what the powers to be have decided you need to learn to pass the exam. This is especially true in Spain. If you teach children most come to you because they want to pass the exam so you teach that - how to pass the exam - not how to speak and communicate in English. In their books you may see conversations between teens that go like this
Hello Mary. How are you?
I'm fine thankyou. Would you like to drink a coca cola?
Whereas in reality the conversation's going to be more like
Alright Rashid/ Mohammed/ Dennis? How's it going mate?
Alright! Fancy a coke?
The books are changing bit by bit and getting more "real"

I do think grammar has its place, as do all the skills (reading, writing speaking and listening) but if what you want to do is to be able to talk to people, the best way of doing it is to get out there and do it if you have the opportunity. Then you can see how it's really done.
PS I remember being taught "Hola" for greeting people. When I first came to Spain everyone said "Adios" when they met you in the street - very confusing!! (That was Valls in Catalonia and it was usually _adéu_ to tell the truth. In Madrid people are more likely to day hola)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I find that difficult to believe! Does anyone else think that?
> 
> The more confident and fluent you become in a language, the more interested you become in its nuances. Why would that put other people off?


actually yes, a lot of people ARE put off by grammar & technicalites!!

and especially by fear of getting it wrong

one of my most used statements is -_ just talk, don't worry if it's not perfect - if you never speak you never will be, but if you try, you will almost certainly be understood, your confidence will improve & gradually you will make less mistakes_

many of my students have had several teachers before me & given up simply because grammar has been 'king'.......and often they just don't know any...........someone once took me aside after a class & admitted that they didn't know what I was talking about when I used the words 'consonant' & 'vowel'.............so I try to keep all 'technical' terms out of it & explain everything in as straighforward a way as possible

I do agree with the second part of your post though - as confidence levels improve, then interest in nuances, & sometimes even in grammar, increases.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Whoops!
Have kind of overlapped with xabiachica on this one.
Sorry, but my typing skills are not up to xabia speed and also I'm on the first cup of tea of the morning!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Whoops!
> Have kind of overlapped with xabiachica on this one.
> Sorry, but my typing skills are not up to xabia speed and also I'm on the first cup of tea of the morning!


yes, we do seem to be saying the same thing


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> actually yes, a lot of people ARE put off by grammar & technicalites!!
> 
> and especially by fear of getting it wrong
> 
> one of my most used statements is -_ just talk, don't worry if it's not perfect - if you never speak you never will be, but if you try, you will almost certainly be understood, your confidence will improve & gradually you will make less mistakes_


My students are people working in international environments. They have to meet visitors, negotiate deals, buy goods, arrange meetings, explain new procedures etc etc in English. If they are too frightened about saying _I can't offer you any more_ OR _I can't *to *offer you any more _the deal doesn't get made, the meeting is not called, the plane is missed - and this may have disasterous consequences at work so I always tell them _Say something. If you don't say anything there's no communication. If you say something and it's not correct but the other person understands you, communication has taken place!!!!!!!!_

Same in Spanish.
Nobody wants to look a fool, but if you don't take the risk you're just not going to communicate. What I can say though is that there's no use being proud whilst learning a language, a sense of humour is handy, and you'll be carrying around a bag full of frustration for a few years


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> actually yes, a lot of people ARE put off by grammar & technicalites!!
> 
> and especially by fear of getting it wrong
> 
> ...


I agree! With most people, especially of an older generation, it's a possible two stage process. First they learn to verbally communicate at a very basic level. For many this is as far as it will ever go but at least they are communicating and I applaud them. For some this will lead on to an interest in learning more and becoming proficient in terms of pronunciation and grammar. Sadly, in my experience, a significant number of expats out here never even bother to even try to get to the first stage. There is also probably a correlation between this and the people who return to the UK to live for 'family or health reasons'. 

Grammar is a vital part of the process when learning a Latin based language and I find that in many cases UK people from young to old have little or no knowledge of technical English grammar This makes it even harder to learn another language in depth.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> I agree! With most people, especially of an older generation, it's a possible two stage process. First they learn to verbally communicate at a very basic level. For many this is as far as it will ever go but at least they are communicating and I applaud them. For some this will lead on to an interest in learning more and becoming proficient in terms of pronunciation and grammar. Sadly, in my experience, a significant number of expats out here never even bother to even try to get to the first stage. There is also probably a correlation between this and the people who return to the UK to live for 'family or health reasons'.
> 
> Grammar is a vital part of the process when learning a Latin based language and I find that in many cases UK people from young to old have little or no knowledge of technical English grammar This makes it even harder to learn another language in depth.


Your last paragraph is, sadly, very true.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

dunmovin said:


> Sure ...you'll make a blunders, but what your learn is invaluable


So is what *they* learn!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Some of the replies I have seen here about the use of a particular verb, tense or word is what puts many people off learning. Speaking, reading and writing a language perfectly is probably an excellent idea. The important thing however is communication whether done poorly or perfectly.


BUT with Spanish just changing one letter (or getting it wrong) can make the difference between you *did* something or you are *going to do* something, either way, it is a whole different kettle of turnips!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> BUT with Spanish just changing one letter (or getting it wrong) can make the difference between you *did* something or you are *going to do* something, either way, it is a whole different kettle of turnips!


well yes, but until you get to the stage of knowing that & being able to consistently use the correct tense every time you open your mouth, surely it's better to just say 'en el pasado' or 'en el futuro' with the present tense than to say nothing at all!?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Grammar is a vital part of the process when learning a Latin based language and I find that in many cases UK people from young to old have little or no knowledge of technical English grammar This makes it even harder to learn another language in depth.


The trouble is English is not entirely a Latin based language it has a very strong Germanic base, too! Plus various under/overtones acquired in the former Empire.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Attractive*



xabiachica said:


> well yes, but until you get to the stage of knowing that & being able to consistently use the correct tense every time you open your mouth, surely it's better to just say 'en el pasado' or 'en el futuro' with the present tense than to say nothing at all!?


This is exactly what we and those that teach Spanish should initially promote. By making the initial process seem simpler, by giving people confidence and success they will be more attracted to taking it further.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> This is exactly what we and those that teach Spanish should promote


I do!!

it creates confidence when you are understood, & when you are confident with the present tense it's time to move on to another tense

it is, of course, important that you DO move on..........


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> well yes, but until you get to the stage of knowing that & being able to consistently use the correct tense every time you open your mouth, surely it's better to just say 'en el pasado' or 'en el futuro' with the present tense than to say nothing at all!?


Yes, such 'tricks' make things much easier. 

Also, I use the compound past and future tenses (which are much easier than simple ones) and other tricks as well. The problem is that the Spanish don't do the same things when talking back to me which is why I find it so hard to understand them.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Yes, such 'tricks' make things much easier.
> 
> Also, I use the compound past and future tenses (which are much easier than simple ones) and other tricks as well. The problem is that the Spanish don't do the same things when talking back to me which is why I find it so hard to understand them.


yes, they are much easier to grasp & use - and again great confidence builders

the others WILL come in time


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, they are much easier to grasp & use - and again great confidence builders
> 
> the others WILL come in time


I think the way verbs are conjugated is a major reason that English speakers find learning romance languages difficult. 

In English ALL tenses are compound. For any regular English verb there are only three words to learn - the verb itself, the past participle and - is there another one? I can see that the system for forming the various tenses might seem tricky to the English learner but once you've got it there's nothing else to learn - it's the same for all verbs.

In contrast in Spanish I believe there are something like 64 different words to learn for each verb. It can seem a bit overwhelming sometimes.

I'd be interested to know how you professional teachers here deal with that.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I think the way verbs are conjugated is a major reason that English speakers find learning romance languages difficult.
> 
> In English ALL tenses are compound. For any regular English verb there are only three words to learn - the verb itself, the past participle and - is there another one? I can see that the system for forming the various tenses might seem tricky to the English learner but once you've got it there's nothing else to learn - it's the same for all verbs.
> 
> ...


very slowly.......................


my approach.....if we're just talking verbs.......get the students confident in the present tense with lots of different verbs - they will remember the ones they use most

when confident introduce present continuous - 'ing' ..estar + _ando_ & _iendo_ endings - these have other uses too & it's an easy to apply concept


then IR+a+infinitive - 'going to' - again, easy to apply to every verb you'll ever need

then - the present perfect - the compound 'past' tense 'I have eaten' _he comido_ etc. - again easy to apply 

then you really do have to study the simple tenses - but when you have cracked those verb endings, you'll realise that they can be applied to the _haber_ part of the rest of the compound tenses - so you've really already learned them!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> In English ALL tenses are compound.


They are? 

What about I came, I saw, I conquered. That's three that aren't compound for a start!

What makes life difficult in Spanish is all the verb endings which have to match the subject as well as the tense. English regular verbs, frequently the only difference is for the third person singular.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> They are?
> 
> What about I came, I saw, I conquered. That's three that aren't compound for a start!
> 
> What makes life difficult in Spanish is all the verb endings which have to match the subject as well as the tense. English regular verbs, frequently the only difference is for the third person singular.


Ha Ha - got me! Yes, the past tense is simple - not compound - it was the third thing to learn that I couldn't think of. Having said that it ain't exactly difficult is it? It's the same "came" for each person.


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