# Mexico ranks low in English-language proficiency



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Here's a article from Forbes giving the results of a world-wide survey of adult English-language proficiency. Out of 63 countries included in the study, Mexico comes in at #39, in the group labeled "nivel bajo" or low-level. Why am I not surprised? 

México, reprobado en inglés a nivel mundial - Forbes México


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## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

I have noticed, The longer I stay here the worse my English becomes

my spanish is horrible, but i speak enough to get by and learning more everyday


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## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Here's a article from Forbes giving the results of a world-wide survey of adult English-language proficiency. Out of 63 countries included in the study, Mexico comes in at #39, in the group labeled "nivel bajo" or low-level. Why am I not surprised?
> 
> México, reprobado en inglés a nivel mundial - Forbes México


I can see why, in the usa everything is press 1 for english press 2 for spanish, they have no real need to learn english


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

SirRon said:


> I can see why, in the usa everything is press 1 for english press 2 for spanish, they have no real need to learn english


What does that have to do with Mexicans living in Mexico?


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

SirRon said:


> I can see why, in the usa everything is press 1 for english press 2 for spanish, they have no real need to learn english


I believe the article was about the proficiency in Mexico not the USA. Perhaps you read it too quickly.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Some of the rankings surprised me, but I was not surprised to see Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries in the top spots, countries where there is both societal and governmental support for high quality education for all children.

I learned something new from the article - I did not know that Latvia in Spanish is Letonia!


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## SirRon (Nov 4, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> What does that have to do with Mexicans living in Mexico?


guess your right has nothing to do with living in mexico, but the newer generation doesn't want to learn english, they feel its a waste of time, my wife daughter was taking english classes, learned it was work to learn english, and quit the english class in less than 2 months 

Many of the newer generation here in mexico are moving from there traditionalist ways to more modern ways 

think i read somewhere, family in mexico do not change much from generation to generation, but now they are starting to make a move from that and there thinking is very different now also

the young ones now want pizza, hamburgers, chicken nuggets and french fries, do not want to work spend all day and night on the internet


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## lhpdiver (Jul 30, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Here's a article from Forbes giving the results of a world-wide survey of adult English-language proficiency. Out of 63 countries included in the study, Mexico comes in at #39, in the group labeled "nivel bajo" or low-level. Why am I not surprised?
> 
> México, reprobado en inglés a nivel mundial - Forbes México


Just as I believe the US dollar is going to lose some of its importance in the near future, so too do I think the English language will as well. Personally - if we were to have kids in school here in Mexico I would be more interested in their math/engineering skills than their English skills. In fact - if they had to take a language I would push for Mandarin.

In Cuernavaca - excluding the small expat group, and that small group of Mexicans with a parent from the US or Canada - virtually no one speaks English. It is the workers (the roofers, handyman, agricultural) who lived in the US at one time or another who speak a little English. But also interesting is that those people are BACK here in Mexico. Just yesterday I was in the car with a guy, Jesus - 33 with 4 kids, doing some electrical work for us. We were talking about Obama's plan for amnesty for the illegals. I pretty much listened as Jesus said the US interest is really just to take a larger piece of the income (taxes) from the Mexican workers. He said he is better off in Mexico. I think so too.

Edit : what I would have found more interesting would be a spreadsheet of all 69 (?) countries X all the dominant languages in those countries.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

English might be assumed to be the key to working in the US or serving the ****** in the tourist meccas. If the "typical" Mexican wants neither, then learning English is out of the question. Why should the typical Spanish speaker want to continually look North when they can look to the vast number of Spanish speaking countries in the South and, of course, Spain.

As a side note, I would like to see the percentage of non-Latinos in the US that are proficient in Spanish. Perhaps the percentage of member on this board who can speak Spanish. How about it, SirRon?


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## Jolga (Jun 5, 2012)

I presently have two groups of future English Second language teachers at the state university. I must say that their levels of English oral production and reading/listening comprehension are excellent. Presently we are preparing them for an arduous test called the IELTS from Cambridge University. 

They expressed their worries concerning the written production sections. I ran some diagnostics and yes most were very weak in their academic writing skills. Many grammatical, vocabulary and spelling errors, plus over-use of colloquial English. 

However, I suspect that poor writing skills are are a plague that has spread to most of the world's youth. I asked them "When was the last time you wrote a long, complex, 5 page letter in English?" No one raised their hands. Moreover, many of them write little more than CUL8TR on a regular basis.

Their is a bright side to this story, after 3 months of intensive academic writing coupled with merciless continuous, correction and advanced vocabulary/grammar clinics, their academic writing skills have improved by leaps and bounds. We are now confident they will exceed the required IELTS minimum of 7 out of 9 to allow them to graduate. I am quite certain we will have a many 7's and a few 8's. No chance of any 9's, even God himself would only merit an 8.

This is anecdotal of course, but at least in my little corner of the Mexican ESL world, I am confident that most of these young teachers will do an exemplary of job of improving Mexico's level of ESL.


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## ValRomx (Nov 12, 2012)

lhpdiver said:


> Just as I believe the US dollar is going to lose some of its importance in the near future, so too do I think the English language will as well. Personally - if we were to have kids in school here in Mexico I would be more interested in their math/engineering skills than their English skills. In fact - if they had to take a language I would push for Mandarin.
> ...



Worldwide: 1 billion native Mandarin speakers, 470 million native Spanish speakers, 360 million native English speakers.


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## Jolga (Jun 5, 2012)

ValRomx said:


> Worldwide: 1 billion native Mandarin speakers, 470 million native Spanish speakers, 360 million native English speakers.


Yes, every empire has a life-cycle, the U.S. empire has seen its best years and now has
entered its decline which has been going on for some years. It began with the rise of the 1% and the almost total destruction of the middle class which had traditionally supported the American economy. The stratospheric costs of the endless wars and the trillions that are owed to China have made the U.S. technically bankrupt. This was further exacerbated by the Fed printing money (Quantitative Easing) for years based on air. The final nail in the coffin was The Supreme Court's decision to allow corporations to secretly donate billions to political parties and politicians thereby rendering the political system hopelessly corrupt.

In the final days of Rome there was extreme division in the Roman senate, the gold mines had dried up, therefore, no more coins to pay the army and bribe the barbarians who were attacking the borders on every side. The senate was in constant gridlock just as the U:S: government is today, moreover, the Roman cities in the final years were as dangerous as Chicago and many of the present day cities in America. The Roman Peace that was the pride of the empire was gone, citizens cowered behind huge gates and lived in fortified bunkers. Sounds like many parts of the US today, doesn't it?

There was no desire by young roman men to defend this crumbling empire so what little coin they had left was spent to hire mercenaries to fight for them. Of course they were no match for the dedicated patriotic barbarians who were fight for a cause, not just lucre.

Shades of Blackwater?

Now the question is not IF the U:S: will decline completely, but just when. It will possibly be a gradual slide and could take many years. 

As for China being the next one to take its place, I am not so sure, for never in history has a country undertaken to control such a huge population. The Chinese government is very much afraid of its own people and must resort to strong repressive measures (Place Tienanmen, censorship, religious oppression) to keep that huge mass from revolting. If they can keep their hordes in check they might be the next number one superpower, however, that is not a given at this juncture.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Jolga said:


> Yes, every empire has a life-cycle, the U.S. empire has seen its best years and now has
> entered its decline which has been going on for some years. It began with the rise of the 1% and the almost total destruction of the middle class which had traditionally supported the American economy. The stratospheric costs of the endless wars and the trillions that are owed to China have made the U.S. technically bankrupt.


It seems like every so many years someone comes along to predict the downfall of the US. Compare it to ancient Greece, the Roman empire, British empire, etc. to no avail. Certainly the US has problems but none of what you mentioned are recent. Most date back to the adoption of the Constitution itself. Aside from that, the majority of the Federal Debt is not owed to China but to the Federal Reserve

.


> As for China being the next one to take its place, I am not so sure, for never in history has a country undertaken to control such a huge population. The Chinese government is very much afraid of its own people and must resort to strong repressive measures (Place Tienanmen, censorship, religious oppression) to keep that huge mass from revolting. If they can keep their hordes in check they might be the next number one superpower, however, that is not a given at this juncture.


China is a very large country in terms of population and to govern such a size there must be limits to political and cultural change else it will fall apart into separate countries. Perhaps that is best. It appears that the current world trend is to become smaller, culturally aligned counties, e.g., Spain and the Middle East. Now, China is the largest economy in the world. That would make it a superpower if ones doesn't consider the military but who would want to fight a war on the asian mainland against an army of millions. We tried that and failed.


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## Jolga (Jun 5, 2012)

I understand, that it's not easy to accept that one's country will decline and lose its prominence but there may be a silver lining. I'm Canadian so we have never even been near the top, and frankly nor do we envy those that are or were. It's hard being number one and the world's policeman at the same time. Lots of pressure and angst not to mention the hostility, jealousy and animosity created around the world. Perhaps just being in the top ten will, in the long run, be better for America and instead of trying to hold on to power, she will concentrate on making her people happy. 

When I visit my son in California I am saddened by the stressful, worried looks of the general public. The atmosphere is tense, not to mention the road rage I see almost every time. The top can be a lonely desolate place, perhaps having to step down will change those harried looks to smiles. I hope so.

Maybe The U:S: should retire to Mexico? We all did in here and look at us, our faces are in a permanent smile:second:


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

> When I visit my son in California I am saddened by the stressful, worried looks of the general public. The atmosphere is tense, not to mention the road rage I see almost every time. The top can be a lonely desolate place, perhaps having to step down will change those harried looks to smiles. I hope so.
> 
> Maybe The U:S: should retire to Mexico? We all did in here and look at us, our faces are in a permanent smile:second:


Well, Jolga. Dawg grew up in Alabama and lived in many parts of the world for years but spent 40 years in California - mostly in the Los Angeles Basin and, the San Francisco Bay Area and the Sonoma/ Napa Valleys before retiring tp Mexico 14 years ago. We retired to Mexico back in 2001 because we had the resources to retire in Mexico or many parts of the southern rim of the United States mainly based on urban California home equity values that would not have been advantageous to us had we stayed there. If you perceived that Californians are tense,filled with road rage and "harried", you took a wrong turn somewhere on your way there and ended up in another place. I suggest the province of Ontario - a place where absolutely no one is in the least bit ´pleased to be or anywhere else for that matter. Down here at Lake Chapala, if some driver tailgates you or cuts you off in this village, bet your last peso that that car will have an Ontario plate. There are no Canadians to speak of in our other town in the Chiapas Highlands. One way tickets back to the frozen tundra is my suggestion to resolve thise aggravation.. 

California is a laid back as one can get.


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## Jolga (Jun 5, 2012)

I admit that I haven't traveled extensively all over California mostly Santa Clara (Silicon Valley) so maybe my point of view is skewed by that but I reiterate that the vibe was definitely not surfer dude happy, perhaps things are more laid back along the coast and up north?

Toronto, Montreal and even Edmonton, yes lots of road rage there too. I like driving in my little putt putt (March) in Mazatlan. Almost no aggression to speak of.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

OK, Jolga; I get it; the Santa Clara Valley south of San Francisco is crowded, endless squat suburbs and exurbs lacking virtually any architectural or natural, forested interest unless one exits the sprawling ticky-tacky city and heads for the hills . One can drive for hours there, look around, and and think they are still in the same place where they started seemingly eons before. At that point, they are confused as to where they were going in the first place since there´s no place to go anyway. Interestingly, this is also the famous Silicon Valley and the área with one of the richest zip cides in the world. 

Dawg´s California was San Francisco´s North Beach or the splendid Sonoma and Napa Valleys. If you cannot relax in those places you can´t relax - period. Now I am at Lake Chapala and the Chiapas Highlands and I´m really and truly relaxed. I think it´s time for a snooze.


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## lhpdiver (Jul 30, 2014)

California - hmm - met my wife there 33 years ago - Larkspur Landing/Corte Madera - on business. Turns out we lived 15 minutes apart in New York. One of our most memorable days was touring the Napa Valley - on the way up the coast to Oregon. The champagne place (Chandon Brut ?) - birds chirping, puffy white clouds, incredibly blue sky - sipping wine and eating cheese. Fast forward 15 years - interview at IBM (Almaden) - I worked for them elsewhere at the time. There were COWS grazing outside the guy's office window. In hind-sight I'm glad I didn't take that job....


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## TravelLover (Apr 12, 2013)

SirRon said:


> the young ones now want pizza, hamburgers, chicken nuggets and french fries, do not want to work spend all day and night on the internet


We just got back from Sonora state and driving down we were surprised at the number of HOT DOG stands there! :noidea:

EEW!


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

TravelLover said:


> We just got back from Sonora state and driving down we were surprised at the number of HOT DOG stands there! :noidea:
> 
> EEW!


Should've gone to a supermarket and seen the score of brands of hotdogs.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Jolga said:


> Yes, every empire has a life-cycle, the U.S. empire has seen its best years and now has entered its decline which has been going on for some years.



All of that said (including what I didn't include in my quote) you chose Mexico as a place to live?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TravelLover said:



We just got back from Sonora state and driving down we were surprised at the number of HOT DOG stands there! :noidea:

EEW!

Click to expand...

_
To the best of my knowledge, good hot dog weiners do not exist in Mexico.


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## Jolga (Jun 5, 2012)

Longford said:


> All of that said (including what I didn't include in my quote) you chose Mexico as a place to live?


I think I may have given you the impression that we don't like living close to the US. As a matter of fact, proximity was one of the deciding factors in choosing Mexico. At first we had bought a condo in Panama but that turned out to be a scam (long story). In the mean time our son and his wife who are Electrical Engineers, got employment in Silicon valley, so it became important to live within easy driving or flying distance from them.

Mexico, in the end, worked out to be a much better choice on so many levels. Additionally, I really like that the permanente allows me to work legally. It turns out that my wife and I are not really sedentary types who enjoy sitting by the pool or lying on the beach all day. 

The only minus about having a full, enjoyable life is that time goes by too quickly, as we march inevitably to the day when when we will have to sit by the pool and read a book, hire someone to do the cooking and cleaning and all the rest of it .... such is life. :angel:


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Isla Verde said:


> Here's a article from Forbes giving the results of a world-wide survey of adult English-language proficiency. Out of 63 countries included in the study, Mexico comes in at #39, in the group labeled "nivel bajo" or low-level. Why am I not surprised?


With the quality of English classes in Secondaria around here .... no doubt kids don't learn anything and loose interest 

Back to your off topic conversation


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Jolga said:


> I understand, that it's not easy to accept that one's country will decline and lose its prominence but there may be a silver lining. I'm Canadian so we have never even been near the top, and frankly nor do we envy those that are or were. It's hard being number one and the world's policeman at the same time. Lots of pressure and angst not to mention the hostility, jealousy and animosity created around the world. Perhaps just being in the top ten will, in the long run, be better for America and instead of trying to hold on to power, she will concentrate on making her people happy.
> 
> When I visit my son in California I am saddened by the stressful, worried looks of the general public. The atmosphere is tense, not to mention the road rage I see almost every time. The top can be a lonely desolate place, perhaps having to step down will change those harried looks to smiles. I hope so.
> 
> Maybe The U:S: should retire to Mexico? We all did in here and look at us, our faces are in a permanent smile:second:


Who named the US as the world's policeman? It is not that nor many Countries would accept it to be. Number 1? regarding what? Many things in the US are great, but many aren't. I think only some Americans really believe that they are number one, the world's police, leaders of the free world....They watch too much TV


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## manuel dexterity (Oct 2, 2014)

sparks said:


> With the quality of English classes in Secondaria around here .... no doubt kids don't learn anything and loose interest


You don't notice any irony in your statement?

Public jr. High schools in the US rarely teach a foreign language and they enjoy a far greater budget. Do you really expect a jr. high in your area to be proficient at teaching English?

Most young people with a good deal of fluency have had the fortune of attending private schools since grade school. And if they are bi-lingual schools, obviously they do even better.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

manuel dexterity said:


> You don't notice any irony in your statement?
> 
> Public jr. High schools in the US rarely teach a foreign language and they enjoy a far greater budget. Do you really expect a jr. high in your area to be proficient at teaching English?
> 
> Most young people with a good deal of fluency have had the fortune of attending private schools since grade school. And if they are bi-lingual schools, obviously they do even better.


Unfortunately, most young Mexicans are not lucky enough to attend private schools, and often the so-called bilingual schools are bilingual in name only!


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## manuel dexterity (Oct 2, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Unfortunately, most young Mexicans are not lucky enough to attend private schools, and often the so-called bilingual schools are bilingual in name only!



That is why I said that those who are fortunate. As far as the bilingual schools are concerned, I have no experience with schools in the D.F. but here in Guadalajara I think most that bill themselves as such do provide a bilingual education. At least from what I have seen from family and friends who have sent their kids to these schools. The instruction has been there, its up to the students (and parents) to make the most of it.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

ValRomx said:


> Worldwide: 1 billion native Mandarin speakers, 470 million native Spanish speakers, 360 million native English speakers.


Alas, many other factors are at work, despite the difficulty of English

"It’s little wonder that an estimated 2 billion people will speak functional English by 2020, the vast majority of them having learned it as their second language."

Yes Mark Zuckerberg is learning Mandarin. But English will always be the world’s lingua franca - The Washington Post

Mark Zuckerberg recently scored points during his own visit to Beijing when he made some remarks in Mandarin. The news sparked talk about whether China’s economic rise means Mandarin could someday rival English as a global language. Don’t count on it. Fluency in Mandarin will always be helpful for foreigners doing business within the important Chinese market, much like a mastery of Portuguese will give you a leg up in Brazil. But Mandarin poses no threat to English as the world’s bridge language, the second tongue people turn to when communicating and doing commerce across borders.

Thanks to the British empire, native English speakers are strategically sprinkled across the globe, from the British Isles to North America to East Africa to Southern Asia and down to Australia. Beyond that, it is the native language of shared popular culture – music, movies, even sport, increasingly, with the recent ascendance of England’s Premier League (soccer is the one form of global pop culture not dominated by the United States). And English is undeniably the language of the technologies connecting us all together. Most languages don’t even bother to coin terms for things like “the Internet” or “text” or “hashtag,” appropriating the English techspeak instead.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> . And English is undeniably the language of the technologies connecting us all together. Most languages don’t even bother to coin terms for things like “the Internet” or “text” or “hashtag,” appropriating the English techspeak instead.


Case in point - here's a quote from the Spanish language article that started this thread (bolding mine):

"El *top* 63
A continuación, te compartimos el listado completo de EF. Si quieres saber más sobre el estudio da *click* aquí."


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

manuel dexterity said:


> You don't notice any irony in your statement?
> 
> Public jr. High schools in the US rarely teach a foreign language and they enjoy a far greater budget. Do you really expect a jr. high in your area to be proficient at teaching English?


Not at all ... the teachers are supposed to be proficient .... they are not

The teachers are supposed to be able evaluate the level of their students .... they can't/don't

As far as I can see they are teaching by the book .... and don't give a ****. Or don't know know how to give a ****.

Public education in Mexico sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why pretend you are teaching when you can't


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Most education systems in the world do not work, Mexican amongst them, US too

English is not a priority in Mexico, it really should be one, but ....things are not as they should be, anywhere

Mexicans should learn English, not because of the tourists, not to go north and get a lousy job, but to make business abroad, worldwide


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexicans should learn English, not because of the tourists, not to go north and get a lousy job, but to make business abroad, worldwide


Yes. The language of international business, worldwide ... is English.

I led a training program (in the D.F.) for CEMEX engineers bound for China. They needed to perfect their English, because their business transactions were to be conducted in English. I also led training for Sabritas sales executives who were heading to South Korea, where their business would be conducted, primarily in English.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

From my experience teaching English to adults in Mexico for quite a few years now, my best students have been those who use English at work everyday or will need it when they go looking for a new job, along with those who want to study abroad in an English-speaking country or in a degree program conducted in English. This was the case of a former student who is now finishing a doctorate in marine biology at the University of Bergen in Norway.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> From my experience teaching English to adults in Mexico for quite a few years now, my best students have been those who use English at work everyday or will need it when they go looking for a new job, along with those who want to study abroad in an English-speaking country or in a degree program conducted in English. This was the case of a former student who is now finishing a doctorate in marine biology at the University of Bergen in Norway.


That's what I mean; international commerce, study abroad, represent Companies, deal with any kind of foreign investors, etc.
When the subject comes, many people think about learning English to be able to talk to Americans, host them when they come to Mexico, go to the US and try to find a job. There is much more than that, that might be what happened in the 50's


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## michmex (Jul 15, 2012)

From Wikipedia,

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

michmex said:


> From Wikipedia,
> 
> "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"


manuel dexterity has always been that way


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

manuel dexterity said:


> Aren't you concerned that people will look askance at a single, 70 year old ****** volunteering to help very young adolescents?


I'm well aware that there are predators out there who prey on young children - they can be young married men as well as older bachelors. They can be fathers, uncles, brothers, neighbours, coaches, priests, camp counsellors, etc. They can be teachers, judges, politicians, businessmen, or ushers at hockey arenas. I have witnessed the life long consequences for people who were victims of childhood sexual abuse, and although I am generally a compassionate person, I find myself unable to find compassion for these particular predators.

But I think it would be a shame to therefore cast aspersions on men who genuinely want to tutor or mentor children and youth, or have men feel like they can't take on such a role because people might look askance. As a mother of an 11 yr old and 14 yr old who participate in various sports and other youth activities without my presence, I have made sure they are clear on appropriate and non-acceptable behaviours, and that they would tell if someone crosses that line. (If that were to happen,_ no respondo por mis acciones_, Mamá Lion would awaken.)

I think it's great that Sparks is volunteering his time and energy to be a school bus driver and tutor for neighbourhood children.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

manuel dexterity said:


> Aren't you concerned that people will look askance at a single, 70 year old ****** volunteering to help very young adolescents?


This comment is uncalled for, manuel. I think you owe sparks an apology.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks although manuel dexterity is seldom worth a reply


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

sparks said:


> Thanks although manuel dexterity is seldom worth a reply


In this case, as a moderator and forum member, I couldn't let his comment go by without a comment from me.


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