# residency



## musie (Dec 23, 2014)

Hi advice please ,just been all the way to palma on the bus from East side mallorca,to apply for residency ,took all what our administrator advised but refused,they have asked for due to the fact we early retired 50,proof of private medical in spanish,bank statements to prove we can support ourselves,marriage certificate blah blah blah,has anyone else met this ridiculous farce,also do you have to become resident, we are living full time have NIE number,don't think I can face being refused again cheers


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

On what grounds did they actually refuse you ??

Jo xx


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## musie (Dec 23, 2014)

jojo said:


> On what grounds did they actually refuse you ??
> 
> Jo xx


Told to come back with health insurance in spanish and stamped!?,need proof of bank account contents and proof we are self supporting,took us two bloody hours to get there and two back as not bought car yet,Cigna are sending documents in spanish and we got bank statements,if I get told no again were not bothering .people need to know that they need these thinks done our administrator just told us to take filled in app forms and passport ,fuming !


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

musie said:


> Told to come back with health insurance in spanish and stamped!?,need proof of bank account contents and proof we are self supporting,took us two bloody hours to get there and two back as not bought car yet,Cigna are sending documents in spanish and we got bank statements,if I get told no again were not bothering .people need to know that they need these thinks done our administrator just told us to take filled in app forms and passport ,fuming !


I'm not sure what an administrator is, but to apply for residencia, as far as I know and have seen, you need to prove you have comprehensive healthcare cover (maybe it needs to be translated into Spanish??) and that you have a regular income of more than 600€ per month per person available to you in a bank account, so that should be shown to them on your bank statements?? Cant you take this administrator person with you??

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Easy to see why many don't bother

Also noticed this comment on another thread ( someone was asking about going to work as a plumber in Spain)


Quote:
Originally Posted by baldilocks 
He would still have to qualify as a resident (650€ + healthcare) even if not working in Spain.


No he doesn't actually have to qualify, just apply. 
Failing to meet the criteria to register as a resident in no way bars you from living here. It cannot, EU rules specifically state that .



__________________
Todos con Lorca .


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Don't take the "administrator". He doesn't seem to know what's what.

Gus Lopez also has his own take on what is needed, and no doubt he's right, but most of us normal earthlings need a resident's certificate to go about life.

Spain, along with other countries, has interpreted the European directive in its own way, as it is entitled to.

What you need is detailed in the FAQ's on the Spain page. The people who didn't give you the resident's certificate were right to do so. You didn't have what you needed, and that is detailed in post one in the FAQ's. Look through the thread and you'll find lots of potentially useful info there!

Rabbit Cat - Todos con Lorca? Copy Cat!


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## bandit1250 (Aug 5, 2014)

been here three years with full documentation,,,, never had to show it once,,,,, only my NIE once to buy a bike,,, if they want to act like idiots then treat them like idiots,,,,, you've tried with them, so sod them,,,,, as anybody actually been asked for their residence card, I know I haven't,,,,i thought the EU allowed freedom to move around the member states without all the hassle that the Spaniards like to cause their guests at every opportunity,,,, maybe Capricorn was in ascension with Libra on the day you applied,,,, its as good a reason as any.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bandit1250 said:


> been here three years with full documentation,,,, never had to show it once,,,,, only my NIE once to buy a bike,,, if they want to act like idiots then treat them like idiots,,,,, you've tried with them, so sod them,,,,, as anybody actually been asked for their residence card, I know I haven't,,,,i thought the EU allowed freedom to move around the member states without all the hassle that the Spaniards like to cause their guests at every opportunity,,,, maybe Capricorn was in ascension with Libra on the day you applied,,,, its as good a reason as any.


Yes, I havebeen asked for it, not many times admittedly, but for important things like tax and bank accounts.
I know it is difficult for some people to do this paperwork, but it is what is needed to reside legally in Spain.

Nobody asked me to come to Spain, nobody invited me. I am not a guest here. Never have been, never will be.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

bandit1250 said:


> been here three years with full documentation,,,, never had to show it once,,,,, only my NIE once to buy a bike,,, if they want to act like idiots then treat them like idiots,,,,, you've tried with them, so sod them,,,,, as anybody actually been asked for their residence card, I know I haven't,,,,i thought the EU allowed freedom to move around the member states without all the hassle that the Spaniards like to cause their guests at every opportunity,,,, maybe Capricorn was in ascension with Libra on the day you applied,,,, its as good a reason as any.


Yes, many times.

If you have children here then it's essential to be registered on the foreigners list.

We've also needed it recently at the hospital.

It makes life so much easier when you follow the rules. You might think they're stupid, but if that's what we have to do for an easy life .....


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

I had this discussion on another forum. When I said that if you are here longer than 90 days you need to register on the foreigners list most of the people there said they have never done it and it has not caused them any problems.

Assuming the person does not want to work and does not have children can someone please tell me 

What the penalty is for not registering?
How are they found out? 
What is there that we can do that they cannot? 
Can the person be deported? refused future entry into Spain? Fined?

I know we are supposed to register but when I come across so many people here who have not done so I wonder why we all bothered.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

They CAN be fined

However, and I know this is a subject which stirs emotion- it's quite obviously a rule/ law that is not by any means rigorously enforced as it is very rare to hear of anyone having any action taken against them for not registering.

I have searched and asked on many forums as well as directly asking many who have resided for a long period in Spaîn- and have came up with no more than a handful of POSSIBLE cases where people were fined. 100s of thousands do not register

Of course people should fully comply with all rules etc etc


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> They CAN be fined
> 
> However, and I know this is a subject which stirs emotion- it's quite obviously a rule/ law that is not by any means rigorously enforced as it is very rare to hear of anyone having any action taken against them for not registering.
> 
> ...


I can't speak for anyone else, but as far as I'm concerned it is the underlying reasons WHY some people do not register which I don't like. They are determined that the authorities, whether in their home countries or here, do not know they are resident, most commonly because they want to evade being taxed as a Spanish resident, are claiming benefits which they should not be entitled to as a Spanish resident, or want to retain use of the NHS which as a non-UK resident they do not have entitlement to.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I don't think any decent/ reasonable person could disagree re people paying their way, taxes etc. Its tantamount to theft, sponging off others etc.

I have no sympathy for anyone caught re tax issues.

90 day registration, yes its the rules and yes it should be complied with. Admittedly I do not view it the same way as I do the tax rules. Shoot me now folks


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

This isn't something unique to Spain though, it's the same in many EU countries and the way I see it it is perfectly reasonable. The limitations are fairly generous so shouldn't be a problem.
The info is readily available online, in the FAQs here and elsewhere and are repeatedly mentioned in thread after thread.
I hope you are not paying this administrator.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Alas Pazcat it is not that simple- hence why many ignore it. If someone's staying for a 4/5 month break it isn't feasible yet its required


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If you take the trouble to find out for yourself what documentation is required for registration, the process is simple.
The rules require that you apply for registration and if you decided to live in Spain surely you stick to the rules, unless as someone has said you want to avoid the responsibilities that go with living in another country. If you can't afford to pay your dues here, you shouldn't be here. Simple. People moan all the time about immigrants doing that in the UK.
NIE is required for buying and registering a vehicle, taking out phone and tv contracts, registering for health care , taking out insurances, opening some kinds of bank accounts, filling in tax forms...
It seems many people live here like 'submarines'...paying no taxes of any kind, avoiding such UK tax as possible, living in Spain but keeping an address in the UK, often through friends or relatives so they can make use of the NHS..
I can think of another term applied to aquatic life which could equally be applied to such folk....


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Wrong- for the short period I have highlighted it is nigh on impossible. I do therefore have every sympathy for those who do not register for a 4 month visit


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## fcexpat (Sep 25, 2014)

Don't do what we did. We went along to Velez Malaga with all the right paperwork. We had bank statements but were told they had to be certified copies ie. an official bank stamp had to be on them !! Just a warning !! Good luck !!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Related thread including:
What you may or may not be able to do if you don't have a resident's certificate, 
Lots of opinions (of course, and this is my own..." In this country everybody - Spanish or otherwise, have to be registered and be issued with some form of ID and I conform with that as a condition to live legally in Spain. It's a small price to pay IMHO. ")
A link to the fine that may, or may not be given for not being registered...

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...you-dont-apply-residencia-after-6-months.html


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## bandit1250 (Aug 5, 2014)

fcexpat said:


> Don't do what we did. We went along to Velez Malaga with all the right paperwork. We had bank statements but were told they had to be certified copies ie. an official bank stamp had to be on them !! Just a warning !! Good luck !!


sounds like you unfortunately got 'served' by the person (trying not to ident her, oops) that I had to deal with, flatly refused to help me with one short form, and would only talk to me in Spanish even though I subsequently found out through my gestor that she is perfectly fluent in English, yes I know its spain yadda yadda, but if you work in the foreigner dept and can speak the language of the person sat in front of you, then surely professional etiquette should come to the fore. Don't even get me started about what happened when I went over the road to the nearest bank to pay the fee and have my form stamped, lets just say paying/stamping didn't happen, I had only been in spain a week and I was starting to think mmmmmm maybe just maybe all the stereotype comments you hear about dealing with the Spanish might just have more a grain of truth about them. Go on then a shortened version of the bank experience, basically one of the tellers just kept looking at the form and tapping his watch ???, the other teller was sat there quite literally 'doing her nails', the bank was completely empty!!!!. I walked in as a potential customer (no NIE so no bank account in spain), I walked out vowing to never do business with this bank ever, and after three years I still feel the same, they could have 'signed' me up as a new customer if they had shown any interest in being helpful.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

We have neighbours who are retired, own a house here and spend 6 months of the year here (don't know if more or less than 183 days) and 6 months in UK. They drive a UK registered car. They have no health insurance. They do not pay tax in either country. 

I know they are breaking the rules but they do not care. They have got away with it for nearly 12 years without a problem.

It is not fair on those who do keep to the rules. Sometimes I wish I could report them.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Wrong- for the short period I have highlighted it is nigh on impossible. I do therefore have every sympathy for those who do not register for a 4 month visit


I agree that for short term visits the requirements are just not realistic.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> We have neighbours who are retired, own a house here and spend 6 months of the year here (don't know if more or less than 183 days) and 6 months in UK. They drive a UK registered car. They have no health insurance. They do not pay tax in either country.
> 
> I know they are breaking the rules but they do not care. They have got away with it for nearly 12 years without a problem.
> 
> It is not fair on those who do keep to the rules. Sometimes I wish I could report them.


I'm pretty sure you can.

Personally, annoying as it is, I wouldn't bother.

However, they are taking a real risk by not having health cover if they are getting on a bit...but it's up to them


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

bandit1250 said:


> , I had only been in spain a week and I was starting to think mmmmmm maybe just maybe all the stereotype comments you hear about dealing with the Spanish might just have more a grain of truth about them.


Some British people conform to all the stereotypes of Brits Abroad.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

DunWorkin said:


> We have neighbours who are retired, own a house here and spend 6 months of the year here (don't know if more or less than 183 days) and 6 months in UK. They drive a UK registered car. They have no health insurance. They do not pay tax in either country.
> 
> I know they are breaking the rules but they do not care. They have got away with it for nearly 12 years without a problem.
> 
> It is not fair on those who do keep to the rules. Sometimes I wish I could report them.


He must be an idiot if he has told a neighbour he is a tax cheat. Perhaps he doesn't need to pay it. Seeing as he is only there 6 months why be so petty as to report him. I suppose they will have the health card. A lesson here, never talk about your financial affairs to others


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## bandit1250 (Aug 5, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some British people conform to all the stereotypes of Brits Abroad.


How very true, and don't us expat's that don't act like them think, ''[email protected]@s'' go back home, I have only ever been in a true Brit bar once, never again, it just seemed that all the regular customers were 'scallies' on the make.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

We'll said Isobella and never give out your PIN number on forums either. My 1234 code is one thieves will never expect and keeping my card in the left side third drawer down in my tv cabinet is also cunning. Luckily at 32 Smiling Cow Lane, Dunstable we rarely have burglaries


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

DunWorkin said:


> We have neighbours who are retired, own a house here and spend 6 months of the year here (don't know if more or less than 183 days) and 6 months in UK. They drive a UK registered car. They have no health insurance. They do not pay tax in either country.
> 
> I know they are breaking the rules but they do not care. They have got away with it for nearly 12 years without a problem.
> 
> It is not fair on those who do keep to the rules. Sometimes I wish I could report them.


Perhaps their income is below the tax threshold, hence they will not need to pay tax, neither will they be breaking the taxation rules.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

We have sometimes been in Spain Nov-March....travelling in a UK car with our dog. Why not? We live in the UK. Another year we may only be in Spain a month. We pay tax in the UK who would go through all that paperwork when it is their second home. There are thousands who do this and if they were required to do the residency, pay tax in Spain thing they would just stay less time (and spend less money in Spain). I don't understand all this self righteousness and spying on friends and neighbours, not actually millionaires are they.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Exactly Isobella

I think some people do take a high and mighty view of these things.
In particular this 90 days registration law. As I have already highlighted
1 the Spanish authorities obviously aren't too uptight about it
2 for 4/5 months stays its not practical to comply. ( Spanish 1 YEAR health ins policy- for a 4 week stay- even though you are fully covered by your own health ins for the complete duration of your holiday!!!!)

I think some of these rules/regs ( NOT tax laws) have to be viewed in the round and a certain amount of common sense applied


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Wrong- for the short period I have highlighted it is nigh on impossible. I do therefore have every sympathy for those who do not register for a 4 month visit


If someone wants to come for a period of between 3 and 6 months, then all they have to do to remain legal without registering is to split their stay in two and spend a short time elsewhere in between. What's so hard about that?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

If that's ŵhat they want to do- so be it

If they want to stay 4 months in one go however, its the system that's bonkers as it doesn't allow compliance!!!

But again, I feel its more some ex pats that get their underwear bundled over these minor matters- rather than the Spanish authorities


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Not sure if this has already been posted, but if not, it may clear up what some people think are grey areas about what SPain can and cannot do with regards to EU law.

From this official EU website, it is clear that EU countries CAN insist on a Registry of community residents, CAN make you prove that you can support yourself financially and CAN impose a penalty if you do not comply. They CANNOT expel you for not complying.

EU – Residence rights around the EU - FAQ's – Your Europe

There are not many grey areas when you read these FAQs.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Useful info overandout

I think on this 90 day law the fact that the Spanish don't go nuts about it shows that within reason a certain amount of commonsense/ tolerance is applied


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## Gazeebo (Jan 23, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree that for short term visits the requirements are just not realistic.


We will be in Spain for approximately 6 months to see whether it is the right decision to live there. We pay tax in the UK through pensions, my job and self-assessment - and do not want to disrupt this for the six months if we then decide not to make the final move. We will have to leave the country at the 90 day point and continue paying our taxes in the UK. I get annoyed with those who go to other countries and do not comply by the rules and pay what is due, but for us to change everything and then change it back if we return, fills me with horror, especially after reading some of these threads! Hopefully, if we stay we will go through the due processes, taking note of all the great advice on this forum.
:juggle:


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Gaz I and others like 4 month trips. 

Now let's get real. Is anyone seriously suggesting for 4 weeks hols I should take out a YEARS health ins that I don't need, then register, then de- register etc.- in one area it was suggested to me that de registration can take up to 4 weeks - therefore I would need to register and deregister at the same time!!!!!

As I have stated thankfully the Spanish appear to take a more realistic and considered approach to the application of these rules than some ex pats


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Gaz I and others like 4 month trips.
> 
> Now let's get real. Is anyone seriously suggesting for 4 weeks hols I should take out a YEARS health ins that I don't need, then register, then de- register etc.- in one area it was suggested to me that de registration can take up to 4 weeks - therefore I would need to register and deregister at the same time!!!!!
> 
> As I have stated thankfully the Spanish appear to take a more realistic and considered approach to the application of these rules than some ex pats


Nobody is saying you are forced to register - just that anyone who wants to stay longer than 90 days without registering as a resident should leave the country for a short time then return - just as Gazeebo, quite rightly, intends to do.

What you and other might LIKE or WANT to do is, quite frankly, immaterial. We don't live in a society where everybody is allowed to do whatever they LIKE whenever they LIKE, thank goodness. It's a sad reflection on our present day values that people who believe in abiding by the law are described as self-righteous.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I and others may prefer to take our lead on this from the appropriate authorities- in particular how they enforce this rule and the importance/ priority they place upon it.

Of course everyone should obey all rules- alas when its not possible to comply with them we all make our choices, including the authorities who by and large appear a lot less exercised about a 4 week overstay than some over enthusiastic ex pats

Ps a €500 fine would be cheaper than a 12 month health policy î don't need !!!!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

It is self righteous to think about reporting your neighbour because they MAY have overstayed a few weeks and run a UK car. All you with second homes better have two cars too or risk getting denounced by "friendly" expats

I suppose you all know Spanish neighbours who don't pay tax too. I certainly do.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Frankly I find the " outrage" by some over a 4 week overstay quite amusing. Chill folks- the Spanish authorities aren't going loco about it, so why should you!!

Peace n luuurv folks!!!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> I and others may prefer to take our lead on this from the appropriate authorities- in particular how they enforce this rule and the importance/ priority they place upon it.
> 
> Of course everyone should obey all rules- alas when its not possible to comply with them we all make our choices, including the authorities who by and large appear a lot less exercised about a 4 week overstay than some over enthusiastic ex pats
> 
> Ps a €500 fine would be cheaper than a 12 month health policy î don't need !!!!


And a short trip across a border would be cheaper than either. But if you want to be pig-headed about it and take the risk, go right ahead.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I will live life on the edge and risk my 4 week stand against the machine Lynn!!!!

I know terms like hero and icon are thrown about too much thesedays but hell- I will go for it. I will be a temporary ex pat Mandela


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

We Brits do tend to think we can do as we like, though, don't we....Rules are, in seeming contradiction, for those 'lesser breeds without the law', as Kipling memorably put it.
Just be thankful that you are being casual about bending rules in Spain 2015 and not Spain 1970 or those socialist countries in Eastern and Central Europe pre 1989. You would have found no laissez-faire attitude then....
As for Brits driving UK plated cars and tax dodgers whatever their nationality...no, I wouldn't snitch on them because I'm British and we Brits don't do that
But it doesn't stop me looking down on them as a bunch of vulgar little cheats who think the rules apply to everyone but them and who obviously can't afford to live in Spain if they can't meet the insignificant cost of abiding by the rules.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> I will live life on the edge and risk my 4 week stand against the machine Lynn!!!!
> 
> I know terms like hero and icon are thrown about too much thesedays but hell- I will go for it. I will be a temporary ex pat Mandela


There might just might be a slight incongruity between comparing oneself with a man who endured decades in prison for a principled stand against laws which transgressed the very essence of human equality and someone who might get a small fine or tap on the knuckles for not registering as resident in Spain

But you know that


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> We Brits do tend to think we can do as we like, though, don't we....Rules are, in seeming contradiction, for those 'lesser breeds without the law', as Kipling memorably put it.
> Just be thankful that you are being casual about bending rules in Spain 2015 and not Spain 1970 or those socialist countries in Eastern and Central Europe pre 1989. You would have found no laissez-faire attitude then....
> As for Brits driving UK plated cars and tax dodgers whatever their nationality...no, I wouldn't snitch on them because I'm British and we Brits don't do that
> But it doesn't stop me looking down on them as a bunch of vulgar little cheats who think the rules apply to everyone but them and who obviously can't afford to live in Spain if they can't meet the insignificant cost of abiding by the rules.


Yip I am worse than Bin Laden........should be horse whipped through the streets and banned for life from Spain and all its dominions for a 4 week holiday


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Yes, I do get upset with our neighbours because they brag about not being resident in UK or Spain. It doesn't matter whether their income means they should pay tax or not. They should still do a tax return and let the tax authorities decide if they should pay tax.

People like this who do not contribute to society make it more expensive for those of us who are law abiding and do pay our way.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Have no sympathy for tax dodgers who are effectively thieves


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

DunWorkin said:


> Yes, I do get upset with our neighbours because they brag about not being resident in UK or Spain. It doesn't matter whether their income means they should pay tax or not. They should still do a tax return and let the tax authorities decide if they should pay tax.
> 
> People like this who do not contribute to society make it more expensive for those of us who are law abiding and do pay our way.


I find it annoying too. We have some who aren't registered as residents or on the padrón (have been here at least 9 years), so obviously don't pay tax although they do some part time work, cash in hand. Although well below retirement age they've never had health insurance but go back to the UK for all their treatment. They are quite open about all of this and in fact have the attitude that those of us who comply with all the rules are mugs. When I'm paying for private medical insurance and they're telling me they've booked their next expensive long haul holiday it is extremely irksome. I have as little to do with them as possible.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

lane:


mrypg9 said:


> We Brits do tend to think we can do as we like, though, don't we....Rules are, in seeming contradiction, for those 'lesser breeds without the law', as Kipling memorably put it.
> Just be thankful that you are being casual about bending rules in Spain 2015 and not Spain 1970 or those socialist countries in Eastern and Central Europe pre 1989. You would have found no laissez-faire attitude then....
> As for Brits driving UK plated cars and tax dodgers whatever their nationality...no, I wouldn't snitch on them because I'm British and we Brits don't do that
> But it doesn't stop me looking down on them as a bunch of vulgar little cheats who think the rules apply to everyone but them and who obviously can't afford to live in Spain if they can't meet the insignificant cost of abiding by the rules.


But myself and many others aren't vulgar little cheats just driving down for the winter. Personally I can't afford to have a car in each place. Every UK plated car is not illegal.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> We have sometimes been in Spain Nov-March....travelling in a UK car with our dog. Why not? We live in the UK. Another year we may only be in Spain a month. We pay tax in the UK who would go through all that paperwork when it is their second home. There are thousands who do this and if they were required to do the residency, pay tax in Spain thing they would just stay less time (and spend less money in Spain). I don't understand all this self righteousness and spying on friends and neighbours, not actually millionaires are they.


I think different things have been mentioned on the thread ie coming for a few months and living here permanently, and different attitudes. 
If you've done everything to the book, no matter how difficult, and others haven't, you might well feel miffed. If they rub it in your face you might feel doubly miffed.
I must admit to not-feeling-at-all-happy or even getting-to-the point-of shopping academies who employ people who are not teachers, from countries that are not allowed to work here (the US, New Zealand etc) and who are stopping my business from expanding by offering cheapo classes in companies where I am already working.

You've got to see it from both sides


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think different things have been mentioned on the thread ie coming for a few months and living here permanently, and different attitudes.
> If you've done everything to the book, no matter how difficult, and others haven't, you might well feel miffed. If they rub it in your face you might feel doubly miffed.
> I must admit to not-feeling-at-all-happy or even getting-to-the point-of shopping academies who employ people who are not teachers, from countries that are not allowed to work here (the US, New Zealand etc) and who are stopping my business from expanding by offering cheapo classes in companies where I am already working.
> 
> You've got to see it from both sides


I get miffed at a few local people who claim 'I'm retired' whenever they are recommended for Spanish classes on FB - but then I see them on a daily basis giving classes in nearby bars - why claim to be retired if you're not - unless there's some reason you don't want 'someone' to know that you're working.....

same for those doing translating or interpreting - 'oh I only do it for pocket money so shall we say 2€ a page/5€ an hour?' 

what about those of us trying to make a living? _legally??_ 

I haven't _quite _got to the point of reporting them - but it's getting pretty close


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I too would be well peed off re tax thieves if I lived there permanently and was paying my taxes.

There's no way however that I would give a second thought or concern to those staying for an extra few weeks hols without registering, de registering etc.

Ffs lifes too short to worry about such things


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> lane:
> 
> But myself and many others aren't vulgar little cheats just driving down for the winter. Personally I can't afford to have a car in each place. Every UK plated car is not illegal.


But you don't bend the rules to suit yourself, do you...
As for people not being able to afford to keep two cars...that's tough but comparative poverty doesn't allow you to break the law.
I know not every UK plated car is illegal but the fact is that many are and that it's likely that we all know people of the kind Lynn and Dunpleecin describe, people who want the best of both worlds, who think that rules are for others and they are 'exceptions', that they have a God-given right to do as they please in Spain or wherever.
I know someone who went regularly to Gib, bought cigarettes he took to London to pay for his regular trips to sign on for Invalidity Benefit or whatever it's called, who does on-the-black airport runs, no residencia, uses NHS as he has a UK address at a friend's house....he's been living here for nearly twenty years...
It's sad but true that there are an awful lot of people like that here, dodgers and divers, duckers and weavers..
No wonder people turn up their nose at the mention of the Spanish Costas...


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I am not aware that my car is illegal when I spend A few months in Spain, unless there has been a change in the law. I regret the insuation that I am breaking the law. also pay urbanisation fees, non residents tax which are around €1500. We take nothing from Spain in the way of services. We employ a Spanish cleaner whilst we are there, cash in hand, hope one of my expat neighbours don't report her

I would like to ask any of you what you would do in the circumstances because as I see it our taxes are due in the UK. if someone can find any indication that one should declare residency and pay taxes whilst living a few months in a country I salute you in fact I would be interested to know where the info comes from.We and thousands of others are not breaking any law in fact speaking for myself I probably feed more into the Spanish economy that some of expat police.:boxing:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> I am not aware that my car is illegal when I spend A few months in Spain, unless there has been a change in the law. I regret the insuation that I am breaking the law. also pay urbanisation fees, non residents tax which are around €1500. We take nothing from Spain in the way of services. We employ a Spanish cleaner whilst we are there, cash in hand, hope one of my expat neighbours don't report her
> 
> I would like to ask any of you what you would do in the circumstances because as I see it our taxes are due in the UK. if someone can find any indication that one should declare residency and pay taxes whilst living a few months in a country I salute you in fact I would be interested to know where the info comes from.We and thousands of others are not breaking any law in fact speaking for myself I probably feed more into the Spanish economy that some of expat police.:boxing:


Who 'insinuated' you were breaking the law? No-one,as far as I can see. You car is legal, so where's the problem? You spend less than the required time for rsidency, don't you?
It's simple, though. Some immigrants play the system, live in Spain, don't report to the Spanish tax authorities, keep UK plated cars with no MOT or Road Tax, use UK addresses they don't live at so they can access the NHS, fraudulently, incidentally...some receive welfare benefits they are not entitled to, some work on the black..
Surely you aren't condoning these activities? Would you condemn immigrants to the UK who break our laws?
I have no idea whether you contribute more than I, PW, Lynn or anyone on this Forum and I doubt Spain would have to declare itself bankrupt if we all ******ed off home.
The point is this: Spain like any other country requires foreign residents to conform to its rules and laws.
I am in 100% support of PW Xabia and any honest worker who pays taxes and is in unfair competition with the cheats who can charge less because they don't pay taxes or acquire necessary licenses. We as honest businesspeople had to put up with cowboys like that in the UK.
Why Is doing the right thing such a problem, I wonder??


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I am not aware that my car is illegal when I spend A few months in Spain, unless there has been a change in the law. I regret the insuation that I am breaking the law. also pay urbanisation fees, non residents tax which are around €1500. We take nothing from Spain in the way of services. We employ a Spanish cleaner whilst we are there, cash in hand, hope one of my expat neighbours don't report her
> 
> I would like to ask any of you what you would do in the circumstances because as I see it our taxes are due in the UK. if someone can find any indication that one should declare residency and pay taxes whilst living a few months in a country I salute you in fact I would be interested to know where the info comes from.We and thousands of others are not breaking any law in fact speaking for myself I probably feed more into the Spanish economy that some of expat police.:boxing:


Isobella, you are breaking the law if you spend more than 90 days in Spain without getting a resident's certificate. Look here, second paragraph
https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain

In Spanish
Los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea, de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo o Suiza que vayan a residir en el territorio del Estado Español por un período superior a tres meses están obligados a solicitar su inscripción en el Registro Central de Extranjeros
However, many people, including Spanish people in authority, think that the Spanish government requirements are unreasonable and impractical when talking about short stays.
That many people come to Spain and spend 4,5,6 months here without complying to these regulations is a fact. However, it is also a fact that according to Spanish law as it stands, these people are falling foul of the law.
There is a sanction for this, but it would seem that it is very seldom, if ever applied.

I have heard that this kind of legislation is often used against you when you get into trouble (think drunk and disorderly, theft...) for something else.

It's up to each individual person to decide what to do, but Spain has made it clear, unreasonable or not, what we as EU citizens are supposed to do.

I have no desire to be an expat police officer (I' prefer the term immigrant anyway! ), but I'm happy to give the correct information!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Hmm let this be a warning to anyone looking for a second home for a few months winter sun. You will probably spend a few weeks per year on paperwork registering and deregistering plus avoiding your neighbours I case they decide to report you


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Who 'insinuated' you were breaking the law? No-one,as far as I can see. You car is legal, so where's the problem? You spend less than the required time for rsidency, don't you?
> It's simple, though. Some immigrants play the system, live in Spain, don't report to the Spanish tax authorities, keep UK plated cars with no MOT or Road Tax, use UK addresses they don't live at so they can access the NHS, fraudulently, incidentally...some receive welfare benefits they are not entitled to, some work on the black..
> Surely you aren't condoning these activities? Would you condemn immigrants to the UK who break our laws?
> I have no idea whether you contribute more than I, PW, Lynn or anyone on this Forum and I doubt Spain would have to declare itself bankrupt if we all ******ed off home.
> ...


That is different my comments came out of someone wanting to report a neighbour who stayed only 6 months not immigrants living there permanently.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Isobella said:


> Hmm let this be a warning to anyone looking for a second home for a few months winter sun. You will probably spend a few weeks per year on paperwork registering and deregistering plus avoiding your neighbours I case they decide to report you



Most people I know who have houses in Spain or who spend the winters in Spain, know this ruling and stick to it, either by only spending only 3 months in Spain or by travelling to other places as well and breaking it up. 

Jo xxx


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Hmm I shall have to tell many friends in Spain who winter there strange we are in Europe. A Brit could spend 6 months per year legally in the USA.

As for myself I shall be delighted when the Spanish house is sold

Honest miss I have only spent ten days there this year


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> A Brit could spend 6 months per year legally in the USA.


Not that it's relevant to a discussion about registration issues in Spain, but a Brit could only stay up to 90 days in the USA without a visa, and even under the Visa Waiver Programme they have to submit a form prior to travel giving all their details, length of stay, etc. This from the UK Government website:

"The VWP is intended to be used for occasional, short visits to the US. If a US immigration officer thinks you’re trying to ‘reset’ the clock by making a short trip out of the US and re-entering for another 90-day period, you can be denied entry."


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

At the end of the day registering after 90 days is a relatively minor issue- certainly its less than rigorously enforced by the Spanish- so it perplexes me why this matter gets some ex pats so up tight

We all have to make choices in life and in the greater scheme of wrongdoings it's hardly a crime against humanity

Those who want to risk it, and there's 100s of thousands of them- take that risk at their own peril

Then again there's many risks in life. Its a risk every time you cross the road, stick your face in a desk fan or eat at KFC.

Chill folks, live and let live


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Lest it be thought that Spain's requirements are
somehow unusual, here's what applies to France, and note that the time period is the same, ie three months:-


"Most people that spend more than a few months each year living and working in France need to have a ‘titre de séjour’, which gives them the right to stay in the country. These cards need to be renewed every few years but they do not cost anything to apply for.
This requirement is no longer in place for EU citizens as this was changed in 2003. EU residents only need to be in possession of a current passport from their home country, but it can be a useful piece of documentation to have as it can speed up a number of administrative processes so it is advisable to apply for one anyway. However, even if you do not need to apply for the titre de séjour after a stay of three months you must still register with your local town hall as a resident. This is a different procedure than applying for a residency permit though you will need to provide proof of identification and address. Failing to register with the local authorities can lead to penalties such as fines.


These regulations also apply to all family members, even dependent children, who must be registered with the town hall as resident in the area."


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Different rules apply to EU member states let alone non-EU countries. It's often wrongly assumed that what is law in one EU country must be law in all others but there is in fact latitude within the Treaties for each country to have its own rules.

Surely anyone wanting to live permanently or spend considerable time in a country, any country, would research the laws of that country before moving, buying a property or whatever?
It's not reasonable to think that if there are laws they can be ignored if they don't suit you.
I had a property in Canada but that did not mean I could simply turn up and stay there for as long as it suited me. Each time I landed at Montreal Airport I was asked why I was in Canada, how long was I staying and did I have a return ticket. Realising that I would not automatically be granted right to stay beyond a six month period and would have to nip over the border to the U.S. once a year was one of the reasons we decided Canada was not for us and sold up.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Not that it's relevant to a discussion about registration issues in Spain, but a Brit could only stay up to 90 days in the USA without a visa, and even under the Visa Waiver Programme they have to submit a form prior to travel giving all their details, length of stay, etc. This from the UK Government website:
> 
> "The VWP is intended to be used for occasional, short visits to the US. If a US immigration officer thinks you’re trying to ‘reset’ the clock by making a short trip out of the US and re-entering for another 90-day period, you can be denied entry."


There is another visa B1 my neighbours have it, gives 6 months. Something we are thinking of doing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> At the end of the day registering after 90 days is a relatively minor issue- certainly its less than rigorously enforced by the Spanish- so it perplexes me why this matter gets some ex pats so up tight
> 
> We all have to make choices in life and in the greater scheme of wrongdoings it's hardly a crime against humanity
> 
> ...


Faulty logic and an excuse for basically ignoring rules that don't suit you, Rabbitcat. .
There are many crimes and misdemeanours that don't rank as crimes against humanity, in fact most of them, but that doesn't prevent them being classified as punishable offences.

I feel like striking certain politicians on the head with a blunt object.(but gently). But that is a crime, I could be punished
Is it a risk worth taking? According to your logic, it's in the same order of risk as crossing the road or getting choked on a KFC chicken.

Strip this discussion down to its essentials: yes, it's the law, but it interferes with my enjoyment so I'll ignore it.


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## fcexpat (Sep 25, 2014)

bandit1250 said:


> sounds like you unfortunately got 'served' by the person (trying not to ident her, oops) that I had to deal with, flatly refused to help me with one short form, and would only talk to me in Spanish even though I subsequently found out through my gestor that she is perfectly fluent in English, yes I know its spain yadda yadda, but if you work in the foreigner dept and can speak the language of the person sat in front of you, then surely professional etiquette should come to the fore. Don't even get me started about what happened when I went over the road to the nearest bank to pay the fee and have my form stamped, lets just say paying/stamping didn't happen, I had only been in spain a week and I was starting to think mmmmmm maybe just maybe all the stereotype comments you hear about dealing with the Spanish might just have more a grain of truth about them. Go on then a shortened version of the bank experience, basically one of the tellers just kept looking at the form and tapping his watch ???, the other teller was sat there quite literally 'doing her nails', the bank was completely empty!!!!. I walked in as a potential customer (no NIE so no bank account in spain), I walked out vowing to never do business with this bank ever, and after three years I still feel the same, they could have 'signed' me up as a new customer if they had shown any interest in being helpful.


Got to give credit where credit's due, the girl was very helpful, we just didn't know that the statements had to be certified unlike the battleaxe we had to deal with in Velez Malaga when we went to sort out our healthcare the other day. My missus had the wrong handbag with her so she didn't have her NIE card with her. We had plenty of copies of it [ what the hell was the copies taken off !! ]but no, she need to see the original !! She went back yesterday to do it all again, saw a guy this time who didn't even look at her card !! Unbelievable init !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Mrypg-The sky must sure be clear high up in your lofty world

Live a little


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I am not aware that my car is illegal when I spend A few months in Spain, unless there has been a change in the law. I regret the insuation that I am breaking the law. also pay urbanisation fees, non residents tax which are around €1500. We take nothing from Spain in the way of services. We employ a Spanish cleaner whilst we are there, cash in hand, hope one of my expat neighbours don't report her
> 
> I would like to ask any of you what you would do in the circumstances because as I see it our taxes are due in the UK. if someone can find any indication that one should declare residency and pay taxes whilst living a few months in a country I salute you in fact I would be interested to know where the info comes from.We and thousands of others are not breaking any law in fact speaking for myself I probably feed more into the Spanish economy that some of expat police.:boxing:


If you spend a few months in Spain (assuming more than 3 months) with your UK car then yes, it is illegal. This is not a recent change in the law. It has been like that since at least 2004 to my knowledge. 

You ask what I would do in the circumstances. I would take my car out of the country for a day or two - making sure that I could prove I had done.

Just because you don't like the laws or they don't suit you it does not mean that you are entitled to break them.

If you don't like it then make sure all your trips are less than 3 months.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> At the end of the day registering after 90 days is a relatively minor issue- certainly its less than rigorously enforced by the Spanish- so it perplexes me why this matter gets some ex pats so up tight
> 
> We all have to make choices in life and in the greater scheme of wrongdoings it's hardly a crime against humanity
> 
> ...


Yes, I don't understand all the outrage considering they live in one of the most corrupt countries in the Western world (allegedly). Would they think of reporting their Spanish neighbours who they know are working cash in hand/take black money for selling a house etc. etc.:confused2:


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> There is another visa B1 my neighbours have it, gives 6 months. Something we are thinking of doing.


Yes, I know, but the point is, you have to apply for it and supply all kinds of information to get it, you cannot simply turn up and stay for six months (or even up to 90 days) without prior permission or notification. Even if they qualify for entry without a visa under the VWP (which not every British citizen does, anyone who has a conviction or who has ever been arrested does not qualify, for example) everyone who arrives at a US airport is required to demonstrate to an immigration officer that they have a return ticket and sufficient funds to support themselves during their stay, even if staying with friends and family.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Isobella every country has its authority sycophants, curtain twitchers, school prefects and patronising busy bodies.

Its laughable that the Spanish authorities aren't exercised about minor overstays but some of our esteemed self appointed expat legislative enforcers, are reaching for the Gaviscon because a 4 week overstay holiday is proposed!!!

Great entertainment


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

DunWorkin said:


> If you spend a few months in Spain (assuming more than 3 months) with your UK car then yes, it is illegal. This is not a recent change in the law. It has been like that since at least 2004 to my knowledge.
> 
> You ask what I would do in the circumstances. I would take my car out of the country for a day or two - making sure that I could prove I had done.
> 
> ...



Ok then, I give in. I broke the law by driving a UK car for four months and was an illegal immigrant. Call out the lynch mob:tongue:


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Isobella you are a criminal, a rogue, a brigand. Interpol will hopefully track you down


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

What I would like to know is aren't the beggars and looky looky men rounded up and shipped out!? I am guessing they aren't paying in excess of €600 per month into a Spanish bank account and I am also guessing they don't have the means to leave Spain every 90 days (although if they are in Spain for more than 183days in one year would be tax residents anyway!). I am not condoning rounding up anyone! Some of the nicest people I have met here are the gypsy beggars & the Sengalese selling bit and bobs. 'There by the grace of whatever supreme being you bow down to' is what I say!. My point is there clearly can't be any sort of enforcement happening?! Other than making it bloomin difficult to register as a resident at your local police station in the first place! It was nightmare for us at Torremolinos and the same for a friend in Feungirola. & we had everything in place, healthcare, money in a Spanish bank the lot! We were treat appallingly, enough to put you off bothering at all.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

angil said:


> What I would like to know is aren't the beggars and looky looky men rounded up and shipped out!? I am guessing they aren't paying in excess of €600 per month into a Spanish bank account and I am also guessing they don't have the means to leave Spain every 90 days .


The beggars could well be Spanish citizens so the residency requirements don't apply to them. Some of the foreign ones or the street sellers might have been in Spain since before 2012 when the new residency requirements re proof of income, healthcare, etc. were introduced. The police do hassle them, and I've seen them gather up all their goods into a blanket and scarper pretty quickly if the police are seen approaching.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

angil said:


> What I would like to know is aren't the beggars and looky looky men rounded up and shipped out!? I am guessing they aren't paying in excess of €600 per month into a Spanish bank account and I am also guessing they don't have the means to leave Spain every 90 days (although if they are in Spain for more than 183days in one year would be tax residents anyway!). I am not condoning rounding up anyone! Some of the nicest people I have met here are the gypsy beggars & the Sengalese selling bit and bobs. 'There by the grace of whatever supreme being you bow down to' is what I say!. My point is there clearly can't be any sort of enforcement happening?! Other than making it bloomin difficult to register as a resident at your local police station in the first place! It was nightmare for us at Torremolinos and the same for a friend in Feungirola. & we had everything in place, healthcare, money in a Spanish bank the lot! We were treat appallingly, enough to put you off bothering at all.


Thanks for this Angil as it's given me a cunning plan for my outrageous planned 4 week overstay.

Before I fly over I will gather up a load of old crap from Poundland and a blanket to pose as a looky looky man and avoid any hassle re my dastardly deed!!!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> The beggars could well be Spanish citizens so the residency requirements don't apply to them. Some of the foreign ones or the street sellers might have been in Spain since before 2012 when the new residency requirements re proof of income, healthcare, etc. were introduced. The police do hassle them, and I've seen them gather up all their goods into a blanket and scarper pretty quickly if the police are seen approaching.


There was an article in the free press last week where someone had to renew his certificate of registration (he's had one for 6 years). He was then asked to prove income and health care etc.

WHY?

Firstly, he didn't have to renew but having decided to, why was he asked to prove income etc. when he (a) already had a certificate and (b) has been here since before 2012?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> Mrypg-The sky must sure be clear high up in your lofty world
> 
> Live a little




Yes, it is. Very clear. I'm one of those boring old law-abiding people, you know, 99% of the civilised human race....
And I need no exhortation to live 'a little'. I prefer to live a lot, and do.
Honestly.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Us " criminal classes " for a 4 week stay (ffs!!!) really need rounding up.

Anyway don't wanna drag this on as its always a touchy subject.

Each to their own and live your life as you feel


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

angil said:


> Other than making it bloomin difficult to register as a resident at your local police station in the first place! It was nightmare for us at Torremolinos and the same for a friend in Feungirola. & we had everything in place, healthcare, money in a Spanish bank the lot! We were treat appallingly, enough to put you off bothering at all.


Had a thought which made me smile when I read this. Someone staying for just 4 months has to jump through these hoops then a couple of weeks later has to go to deregister. Imagine those same officials dealing with you, probably think you were mad


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I find the British attitude to Spain fascinating. It's almost as though it were thought of as a colony. Even those UK tv programmes advertising Spanish property are weird, in a way. I wonder what the Spanish think of them. Imagine it the other way round, British homes being offered at bargain prices...but then few would be enticed by our poor food, crap weather, culture of the Big Moan....Although Russians from Siberia might, I suppose. How welcome would they be in Yorkshire, I wonder....
I don't recall the right to spend as much time in the sun as you feel like being a basic human right but sometimes it feels as if there is an assumption amongst some that yes, it is. Then there's the praise of Spanish 'culture' and horror at it being spoilt by insensitive tourists (derogatory term, that..as in 'I am a traveller, s/he is a tourist' ) who demand pizza, tea, English newspapers, yet some of these same people deride Brits in the UK who feel their way of life is being threatened by Poles, Latvians etc. as bigots, racists and.... shock horror ....UKIP voters.

As for those people who feel they have encountered rudeness or obstructiveness when trying to register...it happens everywhere. Perhaps we were lucky, no problems whatsoever, unlike when registering in Prague where , in the Foreign Office of the police, applicants were greeted with a large notice saying 'Only Czech spoken here'.
I've had rude and useless people to deal with at my UK bank too.

Perhaps it's hard for some of us to come to terms with the fact that we are no longer Masters of the Universe, we no longer have an Empire, we are not the most important state in the EU and that people no longer treat us as if we were....not that 99% of the British people ever had a stake in all that anyway.
But it's reckoned that a million Brits live in Spain and it would seem that the vast majority have no problems with sticking to the rules, dealing with bureaucracy or settling down in their adopted country. If it were that difficult to do so, why do so many people seemingly spend time 'dreaming' of Spain?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> Yes, I don't understand all the outrage considering they live in one of the most corrupt countries in the Western world (allegedly). Would they think of reporting their Spanish neighbours who they know are working cash in hand/take black money for selling a house etc. etc.:confused2:


No and that's why the country will never get fully on its feet. Corruption is institutionalised and is deeply rooted in the culture. Until there is a general realisation that nothing will improve until transparency and honesty are seen as positive and creative virtues then nothing will change and as many people are too self-interested and perhaps morally ambiguous to make a stand, it will be a long time before things change, if ever.
It's the same in the post socialist societies. I think the reason is that when countries live under oppressive regimes and there is no civil society, there is no culture of trust. Honesty is seen as a weakness not a virtue. It's easier to slide into the general way of doing things than to make a personal stand because you will gain nothing apart from ridicule.
Small example: I'm told that 'the air must be clear' in the 'lofty heights I inhabit' or words to that effect simply because I'm doing my best to stay within the laws. 
We may live in a corrupt society but we don't have to participate in it or condone it. Of course the kind of corruption you mention is nothing like a four week overstay or whatever. 
Perhaps people should report their neighbours for that kind of serious corruption. After all, the DWP is exhorting us to shop people we suspect of falsely claiming benefits. We would surely report someone we suspected of abusing their partner or child.
But money crimes are different.....


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## bandit1250 (Aug 5, 2014)

FCEXPAT------''unlike the battleaxe we had to deal with in Velez Malaga'', lol!!!!!!, on a more serious note I normally don't start to personally insult people who either cant answer back or maybe are not aware that somebody has insulted them, but after my experience at Velez Malaga 'fill your boots' as far as insults go!!!! As for bringing the wrong handbag, I don't think the problem was the bag not containing her NIE it was probably 'just the wrong handbag' IE not matching her shoes that was the clincher. PS when I turned up I had the originals and copies of ALL my documents and they still managed to make things as awkward as possible. Went to sign on the pardon at Nerja, couldn't hope to meet a more helpful/efficient Spanish woman down there, in and out in minutes, she really is Top Draw when it comes to paperwork.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> There was an article in the free press last week where someone had to renew his certificate of registration (he's had one for 6 years). He was then asked to prove income and health care etc.
> 
> WHY?
> 
> Firstly, he didn't have to renew but having decided to, why was he asked to prove income etc. when he (a) already had a certificate and (b) has been here since before 2012?


I did the same thing early this year, to obtain a certificate of registration "con carácter permanente". I wasn't asked for any proof of income or health care, nor does the form ask those questions, nor does the explanatory notes on the Extranjeria website say anything about it. I printed a copy off just in case we were asked those questions, but there was never any suggestion of it. Just went to the Extranjeria office, presented the completed form, was treated perfectly civilly (in Torre del Mar, just the same office another couple of posters have had different experiences with), went to the bank to pay the fee (again without any problems) and went back and picked up the cards.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Had a thought which made me smile when I read this. Someone staying for just 4 months has to jump through these hoops then a couple of weeks later has to go to deregister. Imagine those same officials dealing with you, probably think you were mad


I wouldn't jump through those hoops. I'd just make sure I didn't stay longer than 89 days in one visit, just as the people I know who have holiday homes here do. One couple come for 3 2-month stays each year, alternating between their home in the UK and here. Another rent a house here all year round, but spend less than 6 months in it on visits of various durations. The latter couple did, in fact, get a visit from the police to check out their residency status (and they live way out in the campo) after he started the paperwork to matriculate his motorbike. He had to sign on the padrón in order to do it, although not a permanent resident, and they insisted that his wife do so too, although she spends less time here than he does.

Another reason why the first couple come for no more than 2 months at a time is so that they don't invalidate their house insurance in the UK by leaving their house unoccupied for more than 60 days, btw. They are the sort of people who bother about sticking to rules about that kind of thing as well, and all the nicer for it.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Another thing is if you did decide to do the 'legal' thing & sign as resident because you were going to be here over 90 days , you then open up another can of worms if you own property, vehicles , have insurance etc; in the UK as EU rules state that you cannot be a resident in 2 countries at the same time. So signing on as one here could make you a non-resident in the UK & then if you continue the " tell the truth" path & inform all the companies, insurers etc; in the UK that 'll all end in tears as many have the specific question " have you lived outside the UK in the last year " & won't cover you.
It is all a badly thought out, mish-mash of national laws ,trying to comply with EU rules, that do not work together.

I use a motor home forum. Vast amounts on there spend 6 months of the winter in other EU countries. Many have permanent arrangements with sites in Spain and Portugal. No one would even consider registering.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Thanks for that Gus.

Its a decision that's down to each individual as it has ramifications some of which could be more detrimental by complying.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The regulation states that you have to be "Habitually Resident" it is the interpretation of that phrase that can cause confusion. When a person becomes "Habitually Resident" then they must register within 90 days.

Here in the Canary isles we have different values, when one is granted Residencia we get discounted travel fares throughout the whole of Spanish territories. The discount at the moment for ferry fare between El Hierro and Tenerife return is 75% for residents of El Hierro.

Other discounts can be up to 50%.

I know of persons who live in Europe, (Not U.K.), who have premises here, who visit for six weeks a year, they are residents on the Padron, and renew their travel discount certificate regularly to obtain discounted travel on their annual visit.

So what might seem a bind to some whom live in the European part of Spain, if you were living here in the Canary Isles, the financial incentives of the generous travel discounts, would no doubt make you seek residencia prior to unpacking your suitcases on your first visit


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hepa said:


> I know of persons who live in Europe, (Not U.K.), who have premises here, who visit for six weeks a year, they are residents on the Padron, and renew their travel discount certificate regularly to obtain discounted travel on their annual visit.


Oops, how can they be resident in two countries? They are breaking the rules by being on the padron and, therefore, probably should NOT get the benefits you describe.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Oops, how can they be resident in two countries? They are breaking the rules by being on the padron and, therefore, probably should NOT get the benefits you describe.


Quite so, but not at all uncommon.

However I was once resident here for just under 6 months a year, returning to reside in the U.K. for the remainder of the year, did this for several years, until the property in the U.K. eventually sold and I no longer needed to reside there.

Such is life, these things happen.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I wouldn't jump through those hoops. I'd just make sure I didn't stay longer than 89 days in one visit, just as the people I know who have holiday homes here do. One couple come for 3 2-month stays each year, alternating between their home in the UK and here. Another rent a house here all year round, but spend less than 6 months in it on visits of various durations. The latter couple did, in fact, get a visit from the police to check out their residency status (and they live way out in the campo) after he started the paperwork to matriculate his motorbike. He had to sign on the padrón in order to do it, although not a permanent resident, and they insisted that his wife do so too, although she spends less time here than he does.
> 
> Another reason why the first couple come for no more than 2 months at a time is so that they don't invalidate their house insurance in the UK by leaving their house unoccupied for more than 60 days, btw. They are the sort of people who bother about sticking to rules about that kind of thing as well, and all the nicer for it.


But Lynn, you just don't understand....some people don't WANT to do that. They WANT to stay as long as it suits them. They think the laws are silly and cause them inconvenience. Laws should be made to suit their individual requirements. They are prepared to risk fines, imprisonment, torture even for those precious extra few weeks in the sun.
After all, these Spaniards don't care. They are all bent as a nine-bob note anyway.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Hepa said:


> Quite so, but not at all uncommon.
> 
> However I was once resident here for just under 6 months a year, returning to reside in the U.K. for the remainder of the year, did this for several years, until the property in the U.K. eventually sold and I no longer needed to reside there.
> 
> Such is life, these things happen.


Naughty, naughty. Please leave the forum


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Naughty, naughty. Please leave the forum


I was registered here, did that straight away, for the discount on the ferry


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> And a short trip across a border would be cheaper than either. But if you want to be pig-headed about it and take the risk, go right ahead.


I am not sure if this applies, I thought it was a stay of 90 out of 180 days.

I would take the risk, I think the Spanish are pretty laid back about it. One of my neighbours is a Policeman in San Pedro de Alcantara. I doubt if he is aware of immigration law, shan't be asking him though


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I am not sure if this applies, I thought it was a stay of 90 out of 180 days.
> 
> I would take the risk, I think the Spanish are pretty laid back about it. One of my neighbours is a Policeman in San Pedro de Alcantara. I doubt if he is aware of immigration law, shan't be asking him though


the 90/180 is for non-EU citizens

EU citizens can indeed leave for a day & reset the clock

as I'm sure someone has already said - overstaying for an EU citizen (without at least attempting to register as resident) isn't generally likely to cause a problem - unless or until they come to the notice of the authorities for some reason

then the book could well be thrown at them


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I doubt it would come to much

Tales of ANY of the 100s of 1000s of EU citizens who don't register for the 90 day rule getting into trouble for it are pretty thin on the ground.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> But Lynn, you just don't understand....some people don't WANT to do that. They WANT to stay as long as it suits them. They think the laws are silly and cause them inconvenience. Laws should be made to suit their individual requirements. They are prepared to risk fines, imprisonment, torture even for those precious extra few weeks in the sun.
> After all, these Spaniards don't care. They are all bent as a nine-bob note anyway.


Yes, silly me, please excuse my woeful lack of knowledge. After all, I was also totally unaware that the amount of money one spent in Spain could exempt one from having to comply with the law. Must be buried in some obscure clause somewhere which I had somehow completely overlooked.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Sarcasm doesn't suit some of you.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Sarcasm doesn't suit some of you.


Are you including yourself and Rabbitcat in that? I hope so, after gems like

"Ok then, I give in. I broke the law by driving a UK car for four months and was an illegal immigrant. Call out the lynch mob"

"The sky must sure be clear high up in your lofty world

Live a little"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I doubt we're relaying any knowledge or wisdom here are we lol

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

True Jojo

Law breakers keep on law breaking, high and mighty moral guardians- keep on guardianing!!!!

Each to their own, we are all a long time dead


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> True Jojo
> 
> Law breakers keep on law breaking, high and mighty moral guardians- keep on guardianing!!!!
> 
> Each to their own, we are all a long time dead


listen very carefully - I will only say this once.....


we aren't 'high & mighty moral guardians'


we're just giving the facts

what you & others choose to do about it is up to you 


and now that this has gone round & round & round & round & round - again - oh, & because it's against forum rules to post encouraging illegal activities.....

:closed_2:


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