# Cataluña/Barcelona expats



## MisTBlu (Jul 24, 2013)

The Catalonia president, Artur Mas, penned a compelling op ed piece for the New York Times. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/opinion/global/a-referendum-for-catalonia.html?hp&_r=0

What do you think? What effect, if any, would this have on your lives?


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Cataluna*

My i pad doesn't do the n with the hat. But did any of you read the article on Cataluna in today's Guardian?
I would really like to read the comments from those of you living there.


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## GallineraGirl (Aug 13, 2011)

Justina said:


> My i pad doesn't do the n with the hat. But did any of you read the article on Cataluna in today's Guardian?
> I would really like to read the comments from those of you living there.


To change your keyboard to a Spanish one on your iPad go into Settings, scroll down until you find Keyboards and select International Keyboard. You can select select the Spanish Keyboard and use it with your English one and swop effortlessly between the two. This is a feature I find really useful as you can put in the accent when you type in Spanish by just swiping up on a letter and you get a Spanish spellchecker too!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Justina said:


> My i pad doesn't do the n with the hat. But did any of you read the article on Cataluna in today's Guardian?
> I would really like to read the comments from those of you living there.


a link to the article was posted yesterday so I've merged the two threads

& 'put the hat on'


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> a link to the article was posted yesterday so I've merged the two threads
> 
> & 'put the hat on'


This is a link to the article from the Guardian
Spain has let Catalonia down, now it must let it go | Francesc Homs | Comment is free | theguardian.com

I think they should hold a referendum.
What can be more democratic than asking the people?
BUT the Catalans should also be informed, in easily understandable terms, what the possible outcomes would be.
As I presume it will be practically impossible to predict, and even less to inform in an objective manner, we're back to square one


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think they should hold a referendum.
> What can be more democratic than asking the people?


You appear to be under the misapprehension that governments operate in a democratic way. They don't. It's democracy in name only. Is it morally right that Catalonia should be allowed a referendum to determine whether they can self govern? Of course it is. But governments don't operate in moral ways either. They operate in ways that are self-serving and what's best for government and the politicians that run them.

Spain has a big hole in its finances. Catalonia inputs for more money into those finances than it takes out. For that reason alone the government won't allow them a referendum on their independence, they fear what the result might be and yet more money the government will lose if they secede.

It's a similar situation in the UK with regards to EU membership. The vast majority of the UK population want a referendum on EU membership but the government steadfastly refuses to give them one—how is this democratic? Governments are elected by the people to represent the people so why are they steadfastly refusing to give them what they want? Because they fear the result. Governments only allow and offer referendums when they can be sure the likely result is the one they want.

For that reason and that reason alone Catalonia will never get a referendum on independence—simply because the likely result is not one the government wants.

Sad I know but that's the way it works.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> You appear to be under the misapprehension that governments operate in a democratic way. They don't. It's democracy in name only.


I wasn't asking what governments do or don't do, or whether governments are democratic or not. I know they are not. It was a yes/ no question without a yes/ no answer.
Yes, a referendum is the most democratic way of going, but only if the voters have all unbiased information, which IMO is never going to happen.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ...
> BUT the Catalans should also be informed, in easily understandable terms, what the possible outcomes would be.
> ...


I disagree, if they want to be independent then part of that involves being able to face the unknowns and the unforeseen consequences themselves.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I disagree, if they want to be independent then part of that involves being able to face the unknowns and the unforeseen consequences themselves.


Well, that's one way of looking at it.
However, my point is that voting is only democratic if the voter has all pertinent information as far as that is possible, including possible future problems. 
As the voter is hardly ever (never?) given this impartial information then, IMO voting is hardly ever democratic.
So should the Catalans have a referendum? I'm leaning more toward yes than no.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, that's one way of looking at it.
> However, my point is that voting is only democratic if the voter has all pertinent information as far as that is possible, including possible future problems.
> As the voter is hardly ever (never?) given this impartial information then, IMO voting is hardly ever democratic.
> So should the Catalans have a referendum? I'm leaning more toward yes than no.


True. Personally I think too much emphasis is placed on voting and too little on accountability in politics. Spain is a "democracy" - people vote - but is anybody held accountable? It's just different people taking turns. Nobody is forced to resign.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> You appear to be under the misapprehension that governments operate in a democratic way. They don't. It's democracy in name only. Is it morally right that Catalonia should be allowed a referendum to determine whether they can self govern? Of course it is. But governments don't operate in moral ways either. They operate in ways that are self-serving and what's best for government and the politicians that run them.
> 
> Spain has a big hole in its finances. Catalonia inputs for more money into those finances than it takes out. For that reason alone the government won't allow them a referendum on their independence, they fear what the result might be and yet more money the government will lose if they secede.
> 
> ...


Next year we will get the referendum!!!!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mickbcn said:


> Next year we will get the referendum!!!!


Why?

Because the Catalan Government has asked for it? Because you want it? What on earth is going to induce the Spanish Government to give us a referendum?

I include myself in the 'us' seeing as I have as much call on this matter on account I am a resident and the results of which will affect me one way or the other. 

Fact is the crisis is not going to have gone away, indeed Spain along with Catalunya is probably going to be deeper in the crap than it is today. So why would Madrid give you, me and the rest of Catalunya the right to bug out and go our own way? 

The piece this guy wrote for the New York Times does not address any of the issues that becoming independant raises. It blithers on about the history of Catalunya but not about its future. Yes he says all of Catalunya will be better off. How? Why? Because you won't have to pay Madrid XXX amount in taxes. Whenever you listen to folk talking about independance here they all seem to think that they will be paying less taxes if not none at all. They all seem to think the hospitals are suddenly going to improve, the police less corrupt and inept but when you ask them how this is going to be brought about they do not know.

Thus far all we have heard about independance is, 'if you are not for it, you are not of Catalunya' well excuse me, how can anyone with any modicum of intelligence be for something when they are not given all the facts. 

I personally want to know a plethora of things before I make up my mind. Unfortunately I have yet to meet anyone who can answer even the basic questions much less the complicated ones.

Here's a laugh for you all.

As we all know any sovereign country must have its own defence force/army, when asked who this would be, some bright spark announced it would be the Mossos D'escuadra. :fish:


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

I personally want to know a plethora of things before I make up my mind. Unfortunately I have yet to meet anyone who can answer even the basic questions much less the complicated ones.

Here's a laugh for you all.

I am answered you many times your questions... but you don't want to listen.
The democracy will give us the independence. Don't be afraid... be patient.)(Ho tenim a tocar)


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

But isn't that the deviousness of all politicians, Jo? I read that Catalunya pays to central government more than it sees returned, and also what is owed takes ages to be returned. If that is the case, then it is blind stupidity on the part of central government not to return pronto the necessary dosh.That lazy attitude only helps to fan the flames.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> My i pad doesn't do the n with the hat. But did any of you read the article on Cataluna in today's Guardian?
> I would really like to read the comments from those of you living there.


Write it in English (Catalonia). Then you don't need the "hat"


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Write it in English (Catalonia). Then you don't need the "hat"


Catalonia is the English exonym for the Spanish Cataluña.

When writing in English, the word Catalonia _should be used_ and not Cataluña which is grammatically incorrect.


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