# Urgent legal help with letting contract!



## m.van.adler (Feb 8, 2015)

Ok, me again... 
I'm more desperate than ever! 

We have now received a 'English' copy of the letting agreement with our landlord. Some of the points makes me really uncomfortable and I desperately need your advice (again). 

In the UK, Scandinavia and Switzerland etc. the 'normal' thing when letting a property is that the landlord who owns the property has the house/flat insured in case of fire, flooding etc. 
And me as tenant, has a 'content insurance'. 

In the agreement in Spain the landlord wants us to sign in the contract that we should have a third party insurance: 
"The tenant is obliged to have a multi risk third part insurance that covers all possible damages in the rented property" 

Is this normal in Spain? It sounds very expensive to fully insure a property I don't own? 

And this, what is this and how expensive can this be?! "The tenant has to pay the judicial discretion, its taxes and other costs related to that and also of new ones that could be created, according to the L.A.U. Spanish law. The IBI has to be paid by the tenant." 

And this! If a crime is committed I would guess the Spanish state pays for the court costs?! I'm not prepared to pay for some hobby/minor conflict court! 

"In case of disagreements both parties will go the the Judges (Juzgados y Tribunales) of Valencia. The costs (Tribunal Judges, Lawyers, Prosecutors) are for that party that is not fulfilling its duties. For all purposes, the parties designate the addresses described in the Lease agreeement and, in particular, with regard to tenants, the address for notices. In case of changes in address this will be communicated immediately (by written) to the other Party."

HELP! Madeleine


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

m.van.adler said:


> Ok, me again...
> I'm more desperate than ever!
> 
> We have now received a 'English' copy of the letting agreement with our landlord. Some of the points makes me really uncomfortable and I desperately need your advice (again).
> ...


The landlord is being super careful; either this is his first time renting out his property or he's been burnt before.

(Buildings) insurance is normally down to the landlord (if they bother) - he's wanting you to insure against any damage you might do which is a different type of insurance. I've never seen this offered in Spain.

IBI (council tax) being paid by the tenant is not 'the norm' but is also not uncommon.

The clause about who pays court fees if there are issues is not uncommon as well.



All-in-all, I (personally) would walk away and look somewhere else.


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

I've been forced to take out similar Tenants Liability insurance at a rented property in the UK. Cost around £30 when I shopped around.


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## m.van.adler (Feb 8, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> The landlord is being super careful; either this his first time renting out his property or he's been burnt before. (Buildings) insurance is normally down to the landlord (if they bother) - he's wanting you to insure against any damage you might do which is a different type of insurance. I've never seen this offered in Spain. IBI (council tax) being paid by the tenant is not 'the norm' but is also not uncommon. The clause about who pays court fees if there are issues is not uncommon as well. All-in-all, I (personally) would walk away and look somewhere else.


Thanks a lot!

So the landlord still has to insure the flat?
It's not me that is paying the full 'damage' insurance?

Ok, so in your opinion, this contract is a bit 'too much'?

Thank you so much!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Negotiate the issue, take control and either say that you'll pay it if the fee is deducted from the rental price or say that its his responsibility.

You do seem to be getting some "complicated" ones. When we were renting, they gave us pretty much a "bog standard" contract which we then went through and insisted on amending anything we werent happy with. The contracts always had to be in Spanish tho - but we managed

Jo xxx


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## JimMcSherry (Mar 3, 2015)

Hi, the laws in Spain are all heavily biased towards the Landlord... Welcome to Spain!
I'd negotiate and see what happens, but the clauses are not uncommon.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

JimMcSherry said:


> Hi, the laws in Spain are all heavily biased towards the Landlord... Welcome to Spain!
> I'd negotiate and see what happens, but the clauses are not uncommon.


This is TOTALLY untrue - it's actually the other way around!

As a landlord, I have tried to get rid of tenants who have stopped paying utility bills, stopped paying rent, partied all night and have trashed the place - the law is on their side and not mine.

I did eventually get rid of them but it cost me thousands!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JimMcSherry said:


> Hi, the laws in Spain are all heavily biased towards the Landlord... Welcome to Spain!
> .


Sorry, that is not the case. Snikpoh is right.

I've been a landlord in the UK and Canada and am now a tenant in Spain so I can see both sides. But I would NEVER be a landlord in Spain.
Sadly, Brits are notoriously unreliable tenants. I have heard so many horror stories from friends and acquaintances where tenants have paid one month's rent then paid nothing for months, not even utility bills which of course the landlord must pay. 
Going to court costs thousands and there is no way of getting your tenant to repay money owed or to pay for any damage caused to the property.

Our landlord reduced our rent by half to keep us once he realised we were responsible reliable tenants. He had previously had problems will all his tenants. He owns another property nearby, the tenant paid no rent or bills, he applied to a court to evict him, the tenant disappeared owing 6000 euros...

Things may be different in the UK but we are in Spain and many tenants have no attachments and can up and of as they please, leaving all their debts.


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## m.van.adler (Feb 8, 2015)

jojo said:


> Negotiate the issue, take control and either say that you'll pay it if the fee is deducted from the rental price or say that its his responsibility. You do seem to be getting some "complicated" ones. When we were renting, they gave us pretty much a "bog standard" contract which we then went through and insisted on amending anything we werent happy with. The contracts always had to be in Spanish tho - but we managed Jo xxx


Oh yes Jo!

I really seem to get the complicated ones... 
Probably because I'm a bit 'specific' when it comes to which areas I want to live. 
The landlords in those areas seems to have a legal team working for them?

We have given them a response to the contract with the changes that needs to be done.

There are some things I simply won't sign, no matter what the 'norm' in that country is.

But I understand that landlords has to deal with some terrible tenants and wants to secure themselves, but I'm not one of them.

And I'm not prepared to put myself in a situation that potentially can be bad for me and my husband in the future.

A good deal, in my opinion, is when both sides are happy, not just one.

Madeleine


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

m.van.adler said:


> Oh yes Jo!
> 
> I really seem to get the complicated ones...
> Probably because I'm a bit 'specific' when it comes to which areas I want to live.
> ...


I completely agree with you but would say this: as yet, your landlord does not know that you are reliable, responsible people. He is being cautious, as I would be here. 
Our landlord didn't know that we are reliable, responsible tenants but when he learnt that we were, we negotiated a drop in rent from 2300 euros to 1000 euros a month to keep us in his house. We have had people *asking* us to move into their properties! That could also be your future experience.
As I said in another post, there are far too many tenants from hell here in Spain.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Problem tenants*



mrypg9 said:


> I completely agree with you but would say this: as yet, your landlord does not know that you are reliable, responsible people. He is being cautious, as I would be here.
> Our landlord didn't know that we are reliable, responsible tenants but when he learnt that we were, we negotiated a drop in rent from 2300 euros to 1000 euros a month to keep us in his house. We have had people *asking* us to move into their properties! That could also be your future experience.
> As I said in another post, there are far too many tenants from hell here in Spain.


Your comment is quite interesting cos we moved from a flat in Cadiz to Chiclana a couple of months ago and our landlady was so upset and said we had been the perfect tenants. She even went up to the estate agent and told her she wanted 'more like us'.
I was rather taken aback cos all we did was pay the rent on time, took out our rubbish, chatted to her when she came to visit her sister who lived upstairs. 
I did have a pottery teacher last year that had come down from Madrid some 18 years before and while he loved life in Cadiz he evidently had neighbours from hell. He had bought a flat before checking out the neighbours.
Our present landlord originally wanted 2months' deposit and 2 months' rent in advance and we refused both. After a week, he accepted one month's deposit and one month in advance which is the norm and of course another month to the agent as their fee.
He pays the community whatsit.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Justina said:


> Your comment is quite interesting cos we moved from a flat in Cadiz to Chiclana a couple of months ago and our landlady was so upset and said we had been the perfect tenants. She even went up to the estate agent and told her she wanted 'more like us'.
> I was rather taken aback cos all we did was pay the rent on time, took out our rubbish, chatted to her when she came to visit her sister who lived upstairs.
> I did have a pottery teacher last year that had come down from Madrid some 18 years before and while he loved life in Cadiz he evidently had neighbours from hell. He had bought a flat before checking out the neighbours.
> Our present landlord originally wanted 2months' deposit and 2 months' rent in advance and we refused both. After WW a week, he accepted one month's deposit and one month in advance which is the norm and of course another month to the agent as their fee.
> He pays the community whatsit.


It seems that paying the rent on time is quite unusual! We are the first tenants our landlord has had in nearly twenty years who not only pay on time but now we know him pay the year upfront.
I prefer to do that as I know what I've got left to spend!


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## m.van.adler (Feb 8, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> I completely agree with you but would say this: as yet, your landlord does not know that you are reliable, responsible people. He is being cautious, as I would be here. Our landlord didn't know that we are reliable, responsible tenants but when he learnt that we were, we negotiated a drop in rent from 2300 euros to 1000 euros a month to keep us in his house. We have had people asking us to move into their properties! That could also be your future experience. As I said in another post, there are far too many tenants from hell here in Spain.


It's really sad that so many 'tenants from hell' has ruined it for us more responsible ones.

I totally understand the landlord, but at the same time I can't sign this contract as it is now.

To sign that I accept to pay for court costs in case of a dispute, is out of the question for me.
A dispute how much a damaged floor, door etc costs can go on forever and cost a fortune.

I have a friend who is in a dispute in court with her old boss, and the costs for that is shockingly high.

I'm happy to sign something like 'the Spanish law should be followed at all times and the tenant needs to have legal protection in her home insurance.'
But not more than that. I have no idea what type of person the landlord is and he might love disputes? Who knows?
I once lived in a house where the landlord was completely crazy and made life for us tenants hell. He called the police almost every Saturday to complain about noise. And that we had people visiting that wasn't living in the house. (?!)
After a few months the police stopped taking him seriously and never showed up at our house again.
So there are some crazy landlords out there as well..

It's really great that you have such a great situation with your landlord now! I hope me and my husband will be in the same position in the future.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

But I thought that Rajoy had changed the rules and that one had to pay within a certain time. It didn't and doesn't make any difference to us, cos I couldn't put up with the hassle of a landlord knocking at my door.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Landlords*



m.van.adler said:


> It's really sad that so many 'tenants from hell' has ruined it for us more responsible ones.
> 
> I totally understand the landlord, but at the same time I can't sign this contract as it is now.
> 
> ...


I don't understand the landlord and frankly I would run a mile from your situation.
I hVe rented three places so far in Spain and had no problem, whatsoever.


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## m.van.adler (Feb 8, 2015)

Justina said:


> I don't understand the landlord and frankly I would run a mile from your situation. I hVe rented three places so far in Spain and had no problem, whatsoever.


 Thanks Justina!
Yes, that's what me my husband has decided to do, run a mile from that contract.
I will keep looking until we find something with a contract that's fair for both parts.


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