# Greece. Compared to other EU countries



## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

I would like to get a general picture of life in Greece. There are also some points that I am interested in, listed below.

My family and I are living in Mallorca but are looking for a change. To be honest, the bureaucracy is just too much to accept any more.

What I would like to ask you all is:

How have you been effected by the European crisis.

What is your opinion on the lifestyle when living in Greece. Preferably on one of the islands with close hospitals etc.

What is your opinion on things like building permissions etc.

What is your opinion on tax's

Etc, etc.

Basically a general idea of how life is for you and your family. What makes life in Greece great and what (If anything) makes it terrible.

Anything that you feel could be helpful please.

Thank you for reading this and for your replies (Hopefully many)


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## rainman (May 3, 2010)

Abyss-Rover said:


> How have you been effected by the European crisis.


I think Greece is at the forefront of the crisis, meaning that the harsh austerity measures that were imposed by the IMF are allegedly going to be proposed to the other naughty members (Portugal,Spain,Italy). 
Unemployment has skyrocketed to an unprecedented official high of 19% overall and 50% in young people (the real percentages are higher), the national minimum wage has been diminished to the extent that you can hardly afford a month's rent, people have cut down on entertainment options such as restaurants,cinemas,vacation, the down and outs are all over the centre of the city - you even see properly dressed people searching on the garbage cans. On the other hand, many landlords have been gracious to concede the crisis and allow a 20% discount of the renting price, you can also find many offers in new websites for anything you can fathom, some supermarkets have rolled back to the prices of 2008 but not so much to be aligned with the shortage of income.



Abyss-Rover said:


> What is your opinion on the lifestyle when living in Greece. Preferably on one of the islands with close hospitals etc.


I think the islands have not been affected to the same extent, mainly because most people are self-employed, thus not fired. Apparently life in the islands is more slow-paced and less stressful, but I would assume that the public hospitals nowadays are in shortage of equipment, I heard the news the other day and they lacked cotton :confused2: , but I may be scaremongering.



Abyss-Rover said:


> What is your opinion on things like building permissions etc.


Red tape is as bad as it gets, and new unbearable taxes for owning land have been introduced, so many people find it better to rent. On the other hand, as a result of the reduced demand and the people who are on the verge of bankruptcy, you can find some real estate offers that would appear fantastic a few years ago.



Abyss-Rover said:


> Basically a general idea of how life is for you and your family. What makes life in Greece great and what (If anything) makes it terrible.
> 
> Anything that you feel could be helpful please.
> 
> Thank you for reading this and for your replies (Hopefully many)


It all depends on your specific case.
If you are a young professional and come here to seek a job and live, well I don't think you will have much luck even if you are super qualified, the few jobs are usually given based on acquaintances and not on merit.
But it could turn out to be a good choice if you are retired and have a fixed income from your home country, many members of this forum have done it.

//I would analyse it more but I have to go, good luck.


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## SailorE (Apr 22, 2012)

Hola! 
Have lived in both, so hope I can help.

While island living in Greece has been wonderful – quite laidback - and we love the country, there’s a lot we wish we’d known beforehand.

Don't know your preferred style: Majorca was far more cosmopolitan, Greece more easy going and unstuffy.

Keep in mind that winter climate on the islands is much harsher than in Majorca and unless you’re on an airline-served one, you can be cut off in bad weather (ferries not only don’t run but many lines may close due to the crisis). 

Though the larger islands (with many expats) have general hospitals, specialist care, and serious illness or trauma means going to Athens (airlifts are pricy but often required). If your family is older this is a consideration you MUST factor in (horror stories abound)

If you have children, where will they go to school? We were naïve and our kids suffered as a consequence – they’d picked up Spanish so fast, we thought they’d do the same with Greek. But we hadn’t known how bad the local schools were (teachers can ridicule and HIT their pupils), how limited the subject matter would be: it was so bad we eventually had to move to Athens for school terms.

As any Greek will tell you, all dealings with the bureaucracy are frustrating and expensive. And the legal process is tricky. For instance, there is no national land map: Scottish friends bought land years ago and built a small house – followed all the procedures very carefully and legally. For years they’ve used their garden (bigger than the house itself!) to grow food that sees them through the winter (and share with their neighbors). They’ve now been served with notice that someone else is claiming their property – the garden has been fenced off, the police say it’s against the law for them to remove the fence, and lawyers tell them the case will take maybe 10 years to be decided. And, of course, it will be Greek against foreigners…

There’s a lot of confusion because of the economic crisis, and the tax situation’s changing all the time. Don’t expect anyone – lawyer, accountant, whatever, to be up on it. More are coming this summer. Currently the additional property tax is based on the size and age of the building multiplied by the rate for the area you’re in, and is included in the electric bill so you can be cut off if you don’t pay.

There’s a bit of resentment toward foreigners (all of whom are assumed to be rich!) especially those with vacation homes here, and rumours that ‘something’s going to be done about them’ , but we’ve not experienced any direct nastiness or threats. 

Hope that’s of some use to you. You may find life in Crete, Rhodes, or especially Corfu not that different from Majorca. Sorry if this has sounded negative but while we’ve loved living here, given how expensive it’s gotten, how bad the crisis has been and how much worse it’s supposed to get for the next couple of years, we're reluctantly considering leaving.

Let me know if you've more questions. Good luck!


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

Thanks Rainman, I appreciate the effort you have put into your reply.



rainman said:


> Greece is at the forefront of the crisis


This was one of my thoughts. As Greece has "Taken the but" if you like, and others will follow, like Spain. Maybe this is a good time to move to Greece and be a part of the recovery, instead of staying in Spain and being a part of the fall out.



rainman said:


> I think the islands have not been affected to the same extent


We are in a similar situation, although here in Mallorca the tourism industry is the primary employer. I guess there will be a knock on effect, with the crisis in other countries, meaning less income in that market also. I know that people (specially English) will find the money to go on holiday, they spend much less when they are here. This is killing the local expats with tourist businesses and the locals alike. Although the locals tend to have other income, to subsidise this.



rainman said:


> Red tape is as bad as it gets


I should feel at home then . The reduced value of property is also a welcome attraction but saying that, property here is not moving fast so losses would have to be excepted here first.



rainman said:


> It all depends on your specific case.


Young? I'm afraid not. Seeking a job? I'm happy to say no, to that one. Retired and have a fixed income? I wish. We still work, our businesses do not tie us to any one place and are going well, they would provide well for eventual retirement.

Thanks again for your input, very interesting descriptions. Cheers


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

SailorE said:


> Hola!
> Have lived in both, so hope I can help.


Hi SailorE and thank you for your summery. What part of Mallorca did you live in? We are away from the cosmopolitan areas that you mention but I know what you mean.

Hospitals are an important part of the move. We have been looking at Crete (gerani area) and to the west of Patras, hoping to keep medical services close (mother is 82 now). Our children are in the UK and Greece, so no wirry about schools.

I guess that we will have the advantage that my partner is Greek but the more I see and hear, even the locals don't know what's going on.

Thanks again for giving your views. Cheers.


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## SailorE (Apr 22, 2012)

Puerto de Andraitx, when it was still Spanish. You?

Patras itself is reportedly experiencing severe problems, but the country south of the city is _wonderful _(huge swathes of undeveloped coastline) and would probably be better than an island for your mother’s health needs. 



> Maybe this is a good time to move to Greece and be a part of the recovery, instead of staying in Spain and being a part of the fall out.


Ummm, may not play out that way. Saving Spain and Italy are the Prime Directives for the EU, Greece is being given sticky plasters and being kept on hold until the recovery kicks in for the bigger countries. When that happens it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that we’ll default and (probably) return to the drachma. Things then will get much worse (but won’t cause so much harm outside). [not my ‘opinion’ BtW, but that of the majority of experts in such matters] 

.


> The reduced value of property is also a welcome attraction but saying that, property here is not moving fast so losses would have to be excepted here first.


Rental prices _have _dropped, housing prices were already inflated and are not dropping much at all (particularly not to foreigners). And there are serious risks, as I mentioned earlier. And sorry, but we found red tape much worse here,



> We still work, our businesses do not tie us to any one place and are going well, they would provide well for eventual retirement.


Sounds perfect – am envious (and guessing something internet?)
Cheers


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

Hi SailorE,

Thanks for the info.



SailorE said:


> Puerto de Andraitx, when it was still Spanish. You?


I was there the other day, it is a shame that it's changed so much. We're on the north east coast, near Cala Millor.



SailorE said:


> but the country south of the city is _wonderful _(huge swathes of undeveloped coastline) and would probably be better than an island for your mother’s health needs.


Very interesting. I would have to be somewhere near the coast but prefer not to be in a tourist area. Somewhere to get the most from the boats, would be good.




SailorE said:


> Ummm, may not play out that way.


Point taken



SailorE said:


> Sounds perfect – am envious (and guessing something internet?)
> Cheers


Lots of work and then more. Yes, it is mainly internet, the best thing since sliced bread. :clap2:


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

I had a few minor disagreements with SailorE's post, just based on my different experience, so I though I'd point them out:



SailorE said:


> Keep in mind that winter climate on the islands is much harsher than in Majorca and unless you’re on an airline-served one, you can be cut off in bad weather (ferries not only don’t run but many lines may close due to the crisis).


This is extremely true. My husband and I lived on a small island for 2 years and there was of course no hospital. Very often in the winter there was no way for a helicopter to approach (due to high winds) or for ferries to come or go, and there was no airport; in these situations, medical care is just first aid and then hope the weather cooperates. Plenty of people don't make it because of this. Strikes can affect ferries but then you can get a fishing boat to take you - the issue is not strikes or ferries not running for economic reasons, but winds, which in some parts of the Aegean can be very high (we experienced sustained winds up to Beaufort 10, most ships will not sail over 8). So this limits you to islands that already have a decent hospital, which is not that many. Some island hospitals are considered poor, for example Ermoupoli and Kerkyra are often considered to have a bad reputation - but I'm not sure how true that is. 



> But we hadn’t known how bad the local schools were (teachers can ridicule and HIT their pupils).


This is completely untrue. Teachers in Greece cannot do either of these things; they would risk prosecution. My husband is a school teacher here and must be VERY scholastic about not incurring lawsuits, which are very common against teachers, as they are considered completely legally responsible for their students. It is true that the schools are desperately poor - my husband's school didn't have money for photocopies or even heat - but if a teacher hit your child, you should have called the police. It's not taken lightly at all, and the teacher would not be in the classroom after that. It may not be too late now to take action, if you want.



> Currently the additional property tax is based on the size and age of the building multiplied by the rate for the area you’re in, and is included in the electric bill so you can be cut off if you don’t pay.


This is not true. The highest court in Greece determined that the electricity can not be cut off if a customer doesn't pay the property tax - only if they don't pay the electricity portion of the bill, which has always been the case, and makes sense. They say that we will no longer pay through the electric company starting in 2013, but we shall see.



> There’s a bit of resentment toward foreigners (all of whom are assumed to be rich!) especially those with vacation homes here, and rumours that ‘something’s going to be done about them’ , but we’ve not experienced any direct nastiness or threats.


I've never seen or heard anything along these lines - either the assumption of wealth or the resentment - although there is plenty of anti-immigrant feeling, it's limited to the 'economic migrants.' However, this will depend on where you are. My point is not that it doesn't exist, just that it most certainly isn't everywhere in Greece.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

Abyss-Rover said:


> How have you been effected by the European crisis.


My husband's salary was reduced by about 60%. We managed to reduce our rent by €50/month, but that's not going to go into effect for a few months. Prices, and especially taxes, have gone up a great deal. So it is very hard to make things work financially. Aside from the financial aspect, it hasn't really affected us.



> What is your opinion on the lifestyle when living in Greece. Preferably on one of the islands with close hospitals etc.


I very much enjoy the lifestyle. However, my lifestyle might not be like yours, I don't know. My experience from living on various islands was generally good except that the winter can be very, very difficult. I didn't live on a large island but my husband lived on Corfu for 7 years and he absolutely loved it. Generally speaking I prefer the lifestyle to the US (where I'm from) but never having lived in Spain, I can't really compare it.



> What is your opinion on things like building permissions etc.


Do you want to build a house? You'll need to decide if you want to buy a plot of land inside or outside the town limits. If inside the town limits, you'll pay usually 10-100x as much, but you'll be able to build on the whole plot. If you buy outside town limits, land is much cheaper, but you may only be able to build on a quarter or a tenth of the land, or not at all. You can also run into problems if there is archaeological material in the area. In some areas you need to buy 10,000 m sq before you can build anything at all. It is extremely important to do everything completely legally working with the Poleodomia (zoning authority) and a licensed architect because if you build illegally - even by mistake - they are now starting to crack down on this with demolition. I don't know how realistic that is but it's no longer simply a matter of building whatever you want and then paying a fine to legalize it.

Most people agree that it's better to rent; or if you must buy, buy a house that's already built. If you do decide to buy a plot and build, there are programs that allow you to build a house with almost no mortgage if you put photovoltaic panels on the roof and sell the electricity to the electric company. My understanding is that the mortgage works out to around €120/month if you do this. However, you have to buy the plot and you pay anything larger than their plan (usually 80 m2 or so). Anyway I just mention it because it's an option for those who want to build.



> What is your opinion on tax's


The tax situation is very burdensome on people who are low income, because VAT is extremely high and property tax is extremely low. Income tax is about average I guess. So you end up paying a ton of money to eat, but not much to sit in a mansion. There are not very many tax 'perks' anymore - for example you can't deduct for pretty much anything. Medical expenses, tuition, rent, all that stuff is very limited. You have to collect all paper receipts for all goods and services and show them in order to qualify for the standard deduction; I think you have to show receipts for around a third of your income even if you don't live in Greece year round (as long as you pay taxes in Greece). This is really easy for most people but if you aren't spending money in Greece for whatever reason it just means more taxes. The tax burden is VERY high on people who have their own businesses. Also, even if you make no income at all, you still have to pay income tax on the income that you "should have" made, if you own a house (i.e., you own a house? the gov't thinks you should earn at least €10,000/year, so you pay tax on that even if you didn't make it).



> Basically a general idea of how life is for you and your family. What makes life in Greece great and what (If anything) makes it terrible.


I love living in Greece. Financially it's ruinous, absolutely ruinous, but money isn't everything and if your money is coming from abroad then it shouldn't affect you as much anyway. I have no plans to leave Greece, but I have seen many people decide that it's become too difficult here.


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

Thank you wka,

Very detailed and to the point, thanks.

I have to agree, money isn't everything. If we go ahead with building, it would be a coastal property and built 101% legally. Solar energy, both heating and electric, have been a big thing for us and would certainly be incorporated into any build. What you say about the financial assistance regarding the photovoltaic side of it, is very interesting. I hope this will not be one of the many cuts, that are forced on Greece.

Spain was a great leap, from the UK and I guess that because it was so vastly different and better, than living in the UK, the downsides were kind of ignored. Sometimes I feel a little greedy, to want more but it's not financial more that I want, just a fairer balance.

Somewhere between living on the street, with no food and living in a mansion with no food. If you know what I mean.

Thanks again, for your comments.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

Abyss-Rover said:


> If we go ahead with building, it would be a coastal property and built 101% legally. Solar energy, both heating and electric, have been a big thing for us and would certainly be incorporated into any build. What you say about the financial assistance regarding the photovoltaic side of it, is very interesting. I hope this will not be one of the many cuts, that are forced on Greece.


Keeping in mind that I haven't done it and am not an expert:

I believe it is very difficult to live off the grid in Greece. You are welcome to buy photovoltaic panels and produce electricity, but you have to sell it to the electric company rather than using it to power your own home. I think this is because of the taxes that make up a fat portion of the regular electric bill. I have known people to live completely off the grid, not paying an electric bill or receiving electricity, but it is exceptionally rare. 99% of the time, you have a signed agreement with the electric company and they pay you for whatever you produce. Solar hot water is the norm. As for heating, I'm not sure what kind of solar heating you envision - after all, you need heat in the winter, when the sun is not very strong. Heating can be extremely expensive here if you use 'heating oil' which most people use - our landlord pays €10 for every ONE HOUR of heat from heating oil and this is BEFORE the price is set to go up from €1.02/L which it is now to €1.40/L which it will be as of May 1 (in a few days!) - the stuff itself is about €0.60 but the taxes will be about €0.80 additional. Heating oil, which is the norm in Greece, is now considered the worst type of heat. A better option is wood (about €140/month of use if you use it every day). Other options are available - heat pumps, electric heat (I had electric heat on the island, it was unbelievably expensive), etc. The best thing you can do is go nuts with the actual construction to make it as weather resistant as possible. A built home on an island is usually not made this way and the heating costs can be astronomical even in the southernmost islands. We heated ONE small room and paid over €1200 for Nov-Mar in one of the southernmost islands in Greece. And that was ONLY at night, only when we couldn't take it anymore, and only in a very small room! 

The photovoltaic program I mentioned is not financial aid. You sign an agreement between you, the electric company, and the bank. The bank basically agrees to accept payments on the mortgage from you and the electric company. The electric company agrees to purchase electricity from you at the going rate for the year you sign, and it is a fixed rate for the duration of the program (the ones I've seen, anyway). The contractor builds a house 80 m2 (which if course is the size of a 2 bedroom city apartment, not a large home)- if you want larger, you pay full price for the difference. The contractor is paid by the bank the full value of the home, and then the mortgage is for 25 years or whatever. It may or may not be financially worth it - I haven't done the math. But it's up to the customer to obtain the land and it is somewhat difficult in Greece to build outside town limits, and inside town limits, land can be unbelievably expensive and you may need to demolish a house to build.

You will also see programs - in the past anyway - where if you added photovoltaic panels to an existing house, you could get an interest free or low interest loan to buy them (they are of course extremely expensive - to cover a roof is probably around €60-100,000) or even a waiver on some of the cost through the government. These are the sorts of programs that you can either assume no longer exist or you can assume will stop existing shortly. I haven't heard anything about such programs since 2010, and I would have noticed if they had been mentioned.

Another option that has not been discussed is what's called 'prokat' in Greek, I don't know the English term but they are homes that are built at a factory and then shipped to the site and installed. These homes are becoming popular in Greece because they are less expensive than homes built in situ. There is a type called 'heavy construction' which is more or less the same in quality as a built in situ home as far as I understand it. There are many companies that do this, however I am not sure if they can ship to all the islands. I have only heard about it in reference to islands near Athens (Argo-Saronic) but you could find out. This option can save you money but the big advantage is that it saves a tremendous amount of time. They usually only take about a month to build. A regular house can take a year or more. 

It can also take a long time (sometimes many years) to get a permit so if you can buy a plot that already has a permit (will cost more) that is probably worth it. It's extremely stupid to buy land in Greece without a good lawyer because there are often issues with ownership rights (is the person selling it legally able to sell it? If not, the buyer gets screwed). In Greece property is divided on a % basis between inheritors which can often lead to a small plot with 16 owners. Getting them all on board to sell for a particular price can be tricky. This is what the lawyer is for. 

In coastal areas you will have a double problem - inside town limits the prices on coastal property are extremely expensive, outside town limits it is extremely difficult to get a permit to build. The current trend in Greece is against granting permits on coastal property outside town limits - however this varies a lot by location. Especially with islands though I would be very, very careful. It is absolutely not unheard of for foreigners to buy a great plot of land with the intention to build and to find out after the purchase that the land is not buildable under any circumstances. Sometimes you need to buy from two different owners to join two plots together in order to have enough land to be allowed to build. It depends. It's complex, region-dependent, the laws change, and only a real estate lawyer or a good architect will know the deal. 

I feel for you... my dream is to one day build our own home - and a green one at that - so I am NOT trying to sh*t on your dream here. I am just trying to give you some info based on what I myself have come across in the past little while of starting to delve into this mess myself. I am currently looking for land in our area and finding that land is cheap, unless you want to build something on it (€1/m2 vs. €100/m2). And I live in one of the most economically depressed parts of Greece, so our prices are low (comparatively).

Be super careful if there is anything archaeological anywhere in the area. Most of the large islands have significant archaeological material - Rhodes, Crete, Corfu, Kos, etc. A large beautiful island with a hospital that has almost nothing is Syros, however I don't know if they allow building.

Also keep in mind that much of Greece, and especially the islands, is under Natura 2000 which I think means you can't build anything at all, but I could be wrong.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

Here's a builder who does the photovoltaic panels + electric company deal so you can get an idea of what I was talking about : http://www.g-georgiadis.com/index.p...em&id=22:xtizo-spiti-dorean&Itemid=66&lang=el

Of course you would want to find someone in your area. This company is located in my area.


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

Thank you wka,

And I thought the previous reply was detailed, this one beats it, hands down.

I appreciate your comments and the fact that you appear to know what I am thinking of.

The heating system I am thinking of, would be a combination of solar, heat pump, wood and gas. Considering the hours of sunlight, in Greece and much of the Mediterranean, the sun would produce a considerable amount of heat. Combining this with underfloor heating, requiring 50c or less, this would be a fantastic overall heat, that would prepare the entire house, for when the sun goes down. Then, the preheated floors would be backed up, on demand (thermostats in each room) from the other sources. If relaxing in the lounge (probably the largest room), the wood burner would supply heat to that room and top up the underfloor heating. Modern heat pumps are supposed to produce heat at the rate of 1 unit in, 4 units out. This should be an affordable alternative when the wood burner is not in use. Gas would be a backup and probably butane bottles.

I have heard a lot about the ownership problems and will be making extreme searches regarding this matter.

I would prefer not to be "off grid" but would still prefer a coastal property. I understand what you say regarding building permissions etc and again, the legal aspect of this (and everything else) is paramount.

I would guess that this 'prokat' system would meet all the modern building standards but I'm sure that we could produce a house that looks like a traditional house but incorporates modern materials, to make it as efficient as possible, without going as far as an air tight system. Although, the recycled air pumps used for this system could be incorporated.

I think the building permissions will be the biggest hurdle that we could be facing, given the coastal aspect. Obviously there will be a lot of time involved, back and forth to (Competent) solicitors, ensuring that everything is done correct. I have an incline that there are probably many solicitors and architects, like here, who are "old school" and their favorite saying is "oh, don't worry about that", I guess that only time will tell.

Maybe the archaeological situation could be a problem also. I have read of building works being held up for years, after finding something while digging for foundations. Even though searches were made, apparently nobody even suspected there was anything there, until they started digging.

A lot of information to digest and research. Thanks for all your comments.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

Abyss-Rover said:


> I appreciate your comments and the fact that you appear to know what I am thinking of.


Thank you - and you know what... if you do decide to build in Greece, I'd love it if you'd keep posting your experiences as you go through it. I don't have a timetable yet for our plans since we can't even decide whether we want to stay in this area or not... but someday.



> The heating system I am thinking of, would be a combination of solar, heat pump, wood and gas. Considering the hours of sunlight, in Greece and much of the Mediterranean, the sun would produce a considerable amount of heat. Combining this with underfloor heating, requiring 50c or less, this would be a fantastic overall heat, that would prepare the entire house, for when the sun goes down.


Underfloor heat is a good system and is starting to become more common in Greece. I would also be looking for heavily weather resistant construction - for example, build walls to cut north winds, deciduous shade trees for the summer (cooling is even more expensive than heating in some areas), multiple layers of glass on windows, etc. We experienced a huge difference in heating costs due to single vs. double pane glass. We lived in a 'standard' island house on a southern island and had terrible, terrible problems with humidity in the winter (as did everybody else) - this is especially a problem in the Ionian and Cycladic islands. To deal with this, you need excellent weatherstripping and insulation, and probably a building-wide dehumidifying system. Mold and rot are common problems in these areas.



> Gas would be a backup and probably butane bottles.


This is a good idea for anyone on an island, where the electricity can be so-so. A generator to run your minimal electric needs (refrigerator/freezer, etc) is a good idea. 

I was really surprised by how cold and humid it was on the island in the winter. I had this idea that it would be like Athens for some reason. The north winds can reduce the temperature severely, and when you add the damp onto that, your perceived temperature is far lower. Many people have the idea that the islands are warm or at least temperate year round and this may be true of the very large islands (Crete, Rhodes) where you can be far from the sea, but if you want to be on the coast, you'll get winds. The lowest winds generally speaking are in the Argo-Saronic islands - Salamina, Poros, Aigina, Angistri - those might be something to consider too since you want access to a hospital - Peiraias is not far away and the ferries are almost never canceled. Also the landward side of Evia might be an option, that's an area I know nothing about.

However property prices on those islands are out of reach for most mortals!


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

Thanks wka,

Very useful information and views.

I will keep you posted, as and when things progress.

Thanks


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