# Help with power



## Moyra (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi
My question is what is cheaper

Oil
Natural gas
Bottle gas
Electricity 

If you are running hot water, central heating and the cooker. 

Or is it cheaper to run hot water on solar, cooker on bottle gas and central heating on oil, or any other mix?

Thank you in advance for your comments. 

Moyra


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Moyra said:


> Hi
> My question is what is cheaper
> 
> Oil
> ...


I use bottled gas for cooking and it's very cheap and seems to last for months.

My water is heated buy electric and is economical. 

There is also another thread running on here called Gas v Electric which may be of interest to you. 

Steve


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Moyra said:


> Hi
> My question is what is cheaper
> 
> Oil
> ...




Purely in terms of cost, bottled gas (butane) is the cheapest. But you really ought to balance that with safety, ease of use, convenience etc.

Solar (not PV cells) is always a good bet to supplement your hot water system.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

If you have solar-powered hot water, obviously that's the cheapest once it's installed. Then I reckon you'd use bottled gas for whatever you can (stove-top cooking, heating, extra hot water). You would need electricity or mains gas to run an oven though. 

Certain rooms aren't suitable for gas heaters, e.g. bathrooms, as they generate condensation and need ventilation. You can get some reasonably efficient electric radiators, towel rails etc - just watch out for the consumption level.

I know nothing about mains gas, what a luxury that would be!


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> If you have solar-powered hot water, obviously that's the cheapest once it's installed. Then I reckon you'd use bottled gas for whatever you can (stove-top cooking, heating, extra hot water). You would need electricity or mains gas to run an oven though.
> 
> Certain rooms aren't suitable for gas heaters, e.g. bathrooms, as they generate condensation and need ventilation. You can get some reasonably efficient electric radiators, towel rails etc - just watch out for the consumption level.
> 
> I know nothing about mains gas, what a luxury that would be!


We ran an oven quite efficiently on bottled gas and was economical, safe and long lasting.

Mains gas is a luxury, exactly! You pay for luxury especially in Spain. 

Steve


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I've known people with ovens running on bottled gas, too. They became masters in shaking the bombona to assess whether there was enough gas to risk baking a cake!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Madliz said:


> I've known people with ovens running on bottled gas, too. They became masters in shaking the bombona to assess whether there was enough gas to risk baking a cake!


Like the Russian roulette involved when taking a shower in winter...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

tebo53 said:


> We ran an oven quite efficiently on bottled gas and was economical, safe and long lasting.
> 
> Mains gas is a luxury, exactly! You pay for luxury especially in Spain.
> 
> Steve


We have a gas cooker with oven and 4 burners, runs perfectly well off 1 gas bottle. I normally only have to buy 2 gas bottles all year for the cooker, the other 8 I buy for our portable gas heater. And that's even with us cooking 2 separate evening meals each day (because my husband is vegetarian and I'm not). So our total gas bill is less than €140 per year.

We always have 1 full spare gas bottle on hand so if it runs out when cooking a meal it only takes moments to change it - not nearly as much of an inconvenience as if the water suddenly goes cold mid-shower with a butano powered boiler!

We have an electric water heater and electric bathroom heater plus the usual stuff like fridge/freezer, washing machine, tumble drier, kettle, microwave, 2 tvs, hairdrier, iron, and our electricity bills are between €88-103 for two months. Lowest in the summer and highest in the winter.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> We have a gas cooker with oven and 4 burners, runs perfectly well off 1 gas bottle. I normally only have to buy 2 gas bottles all year for the cooker, the other 8 I buy for our portable gas heater. And that's even with us cooking 2 separate evening meals each day (because my husband is vegetarian and I'm not). So our total gas bill is less than €140 per year.
> 
> We always have 1 full spare gas bottle on hand so if it runs out when cooking a meal it only takes moments to change it - not nearly as much of an inconvenience as if the water suddenly goes cold mid-shower with a butano powered boiler!
> 
> We have an electric water heater and electric bathroom heater plus the usual stuff like fridge/freezer, washing machine, tumble drier, kettle, microwave, 2 tvs, hairdrier, iron, and our electricity bills are between €88-103 for two months. Lowest in the summer and highest in the winter.


Far better to have two bottles feed the one 'device' (cooker, water heater...) to avoid running out surely?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Far better to have two bottles feed the one 'device' (cooker, water heater...) to avoid running out surely?


Well, I am not sure about that. If you had two bottles feeding one device, how would you know when the first one had run out and needed changing? Plus, then I'd need one extra bottle (two for the cooker, one for the gas heater and one spare) so I'd rather keep the total number of gas bottles on the premises down to 3. Two of them are not kept inside the house, which I prefer on safety grounds.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Lynn R said:


> Well, I am not sure about that. If you had two bottles feeding one device, how would you know when the first one had run out and needed changing? Plus, then I'd need one extra bottle (two for the cooker, one for the gas heater and one spare) so I'd rather keep the total number of gas bottles on the premises down to 3. Two of them are not kept inside the house, which I prefer on safety grounds.


My mother (in UK) has a device which automatically switches over from one bottle to the other when the first is empty.

I agree, unless you have space for more bottles, it can look unsightly.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> My mother (in UK) has a device which automatically switches over from one bottle to the other when the first is empty.
> 
> I agree, unless you have space for more bottles, it can look unsightly.


I understand about the devices which automatically switch over from one bottle to the other. My problem with that is, as I said, how do you then know that the first one has run out and needs replacing? If you forgot to check you could end up in the situation that both have run out.


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## Moyra (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you all
This was very informative. Lynn R I would like to thank you for the costs you pay for electrics and what you are running that was very helpful. 

Once again thank you for taking the time to reply to my question. 

Moyra


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Moyra said:


> Thank you all
> This was very informative. Lynn R I would like to thank you for the costs you pay for electrics and what you are running that was very helpful.
> 
> Once again thank you for taking the time to reply to my question.
> ...


One thing to be aware of, Moyra, is that the amount of potencia you are contracted for from your electricity supplier (that is, the amount of power you can draw at any one time) will significantly affect your bills as the higher the number of kw you are contracted for, the higher the standing charges will be. We have only 3.45kw potencia so our standing charges are reasonable (just over €20 for two months) but if you had, for example, an electric oven and hob, you would need a higher potencia to avoid the supply tripping by overloading it, so your standing charges would be higher.

With bottled gas, you have to be aware that the bottles are pretty heavy and that can be a problem for some people, especially if you live somewhere where they cannot be delivered to your door and you need to go and collect them from a retail outlet, and heave them in and out of a car and into your house. I live in a big town and can get one delivered to my door 3 days a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday).


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## Moyra (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi Lynn
Many thanks for this information I have tucked it away with all my Spanish papers. This is something that should be remembered when moving to a new country. I have the feeling we will be going in the same direction as you have, as it does make sense. After all why spend the "extra" money on electricity when it could be another glass of wine! 
Moyra


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Moyra said:


> Hi Lynn
> Many thanks for this information I have tucked it away with all my Spanish papers. This is something that should be remembered when moving to a new country. I have the feeling we will be going in the same direction as you have, as it does make sense. After all why spend the "extra" money on electricity when it could be another glass of wine!
> Moyra


A woman after my own heart!

I hate spending money on boring things like electricity.


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## Simon22 (May 22, 2015)

Alcalaina said:


> Like the Russian roulette involved when taking a shower in winter...


We get a few days of heat lowering and going back up as a warning and know when the bottle is low. Never yet been surprised by an empty bottle.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

When I lived in Wales, I put in central heating powered by gas. I had four of the tall gas bottles coupled in pairs. They were linked through an automatic change-over valve so that when one pair ran out the other pair took over with no break in service. It had an indicator showing which pair was in service so I knew when a pair needed replacing.

Here in Spain we use a solar panel for hot water when there is enough power in the sun (no good at the moment - it is cloudy) and that usually supplies our hot water from late April to mid October as a minimum, then we go over to an instantaneous gas water heater that runs off a bottle which we also use for cooking. We also use (as required) a slow cooker and a halogen oven, both of which are economical to run and don't heat the kitchen during the warmer weather.


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## Moyra (Aug 10, 2014)

Thank you Baldilocks
We have a slow cooker but a halogen cooker has been added to our list of "must take". 
Moyra


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

" I know nothing about mains gas, what a luxury that would be! " Glad to hear that, because I've just signed up for it! 

One of the things that made my eyes light up when looking at my flat on the first visit was seeing a gas meter & gas boiler on the wall of the lightwell, outside my ground floor neighbour's flat, and the gas supply pipe running up the lightwell not 1m from my kitchen window, two floors up.

As for the luxury element, mains gas is all over VLC city, as I expect it is in other cities and big towns. For convenience and safety in a small inner city flat, it is clearly preferable to bottles. The trick is to get a reasonably priced contract to connect and supply.

For anyone in the market for mains gas, here are a couple of quotes. The quote from my electricity supplier, Iberdrola, for a 'Dual Fuel' deal, came in at over 600€, so quite out of the question.

1. _Gas Natural_ (main company)
Individual install 363,00€
Access rights 128,67€ 
Register right 92,16€
Discount -100€
Total amount: 483.83€


2. Viventia (subsidiary of Gas Natural), spoke with Maria Jesús (nothing like having a direct line!)

Free installation up to 10 meters of copper and free newsletter.
Register and Access Rights 182, 51 € plus VAT (21 per cent) 
Forced draft by law UNE 2016, heater in kitchen or enclosed gallery € 100 plus VAT. (I'm going for a boiler which has forced venting built in)
Refund of € 100 by the installation company Viventia after commissioning.
Total of amount: 341.22€-100€ = 241.22€.

'Access rights' is arrange to go through the neighbour's flat to get at the gas pipe running around the lightwell.

Forget €241.22 - I just signed up for €82 after €100 cash back, following installation! How that came about is not for me to fret. That's what they wanted and that's what I signed for on the contract. Get on to Maria Jesus to see if she'll still do you the deal.

Note that if you choose a boiler which does not have a built-in fan in the exhaust system, gas installation will cost an extra 100€, presumably to mount the boiler outside in the lightwell.

The "ventilador incorporado" adds about 45/50€ to the price of a boiler of the same output without this feature. The word to describe these boilers is "atmosferico". So you get a better spec boiler which can be installed indoors, even enclosed in a cabinet if you don't like the look of the thing, for a nett saving of 50€.

With gas running an 11 litre/min 'calentador' I will be running a a shower, basin and sink taps (and gas hob). In the event I go for the Air BnB routine, I wanted to be able to provide showers for 4 people one after t'other. A cold feed shower would have done that but a) electricity is a more expensive way to do it. b) I would probably have had to go for a higher capacity electricity contract. c) I would have had to go for an electric hob which would have influenced b) and is a way to cook I've never got on with.

Forced exhaust models from Vaillant or Junkers are about 325€, 'atmosferico' exhaust about 280€.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

chrisnation said:


> As for the luxury element, mains gas is all over VLC city, as I expect it is in other cities and big towns.


They certainly have it in Seville, we rented an apartment there which had gas central heating with radiators, that really felt like luxury after what we are used to! Natural gas is available in the newer part of my town but I don't suppose I'll ever see it where I live, in the old historic centre.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> They certainly have it in Seville, we rented an apartment there which had gas central heating with radiators, that really felt like luxury after what we are used to! Natural gas is available in the newer part of my town but I don't suppose I'll ever see it where I live, in the old historic centre.


We have it, and have had it for about 10/12 years now.


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