# Bills



## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

Ok so i am interested in property which is E350 per month.... 2 bedroom apartment

I have heard council tax is around E200 per year 

gas / elec /water /upkeep?

What else can i expect to pay .......what is your monthly bills?

please dont say go look at this section  just tell me what you know 

thanks


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sorry, but the whole point of the Cost of Living sticky is to tell you just that!

Your bills will depend on your consumption and where you live. Electricity and gas are about the same as the UK. Internet and phone are more expensive. Water is cheaper unless you have a pool, but you have to pay separately for sewage disposal. Rubbish collection is also billed separately.

But if you are renting, most of these bills will be paid by the landlord.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> Ok so i am interested in property which is E350 per month.... 2 bedroom apartment
> 
> I have heard council tax is around E200 per year
> 
> ...




All the information is already there... so I am saying.. please look,


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

Knew it  hahah xx

i dont see a cost of living sticky at the top of forum ?

thanks for the balancing info compared to the uk tho scary stuff!

would of been interesting to see what others are paying aswell tho


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> Knew it  hahah xx
> 
> i dont see a cost of living sticky at the top of forum ?
> 
> ...


there's a link to it on page 2 of the 'useful links' sticky

we had so many stickies that they almost filled the page............so we had a tidy up - I'm trying to keep the 'useful' thread to just a couple of pages too, by categorising individual posts


it is a sort of 'piece of string' question though - but generally speaking, water is cheaper than the UK, but you can expect gas & electricity bills to be more or less on a par over the year as for a similar property in the UK, as Alcalaina said

what we pay probably wouldn't be of any use to you - there are 4 of us & a menagerie in a 5 bed house, my OH loves his aircon & I like my underfloor heating...........so I'm sure our bills would be a lot more than yours!


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> there's a link to it on page 2 of the 'useful links' sticky
> 
> we had so many stickies that they almost filled the page............so we had a tidy up - I'm trying to keep the 'useful' thread to just a couple of pages too, by categorising individual posts
> 
> ...


thanks xabiachic 

 the 3 angels of spain helping me sweet :angel::angel::angel:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

So much depends on your personal circumstances, your lifestyle and where you live. 

We have a large house inland, mortgage-free. There are three of us + a dog. We can live quite comfortably on my OAP and even save a bit from that. In the UK in a 2 BR flat we were paying £50 per month for each of gas, water,electricity and sewage (i.e. £200 p.m.) plus Council tax was as much per month in UK as it is here for 6 months (£100) including water, sewage and refuse collection. Gas here (bombona) costs us about €15 p.m., electricity about €30 p.m., logs for the chimenea cost us about €150-200 per winter. We have most meals at home (regular exception is Sunday when we frequently [especially in summer to save heating kitchen with the oven] have a roast chicken and chips from the asador [€12.70] - the spare quarter goes into a curry or dinosaur pie) and we don't go out much (not much need) and definitely do not prop up bars; none of us smokes, now. We have Freesat TV (about 300+ channels) which keeps the wife and m-i-l happy. Phone + ADSL is from Orange at about €40 p.m. Our car is a 5 year old Citroen Berlingo which is quite economical and can carry almost all that we want it to (even brought our entire kitchen home [flatpack] in it!)

Others on here will give you completely different figures because their personal circumstances and lifestyle are different.


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

thanks mate the council tax is amazing there and i didnt know the buckets etc was included in that 

i will only be in an apartment alone (hoping mate will rent other room) with internet only not phone so say 30 euros a month?
im sure my council tax will be a bit cheaper than your big villa  say 300 euros max per year?

food is cheaper here i know that and its nicer say emm 40 euros a week 

water a week 10 euros?

this is not going to be as bad as i thought :clap2: 

so im thinking around the 100 euros a month mark for all my other bills ( apart form the council tax bill that ill jsut pay off anyyway)
or am i missing something lol
:confused2:


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

ah wait forgot gas n elec 

no more than 30 euros a month eatch for that shurly so 60

so can safely say monthly bill around E160 a month £133...

:confused2:

squeeze my shopping to 35 a week including water and its sill 100 euros a month! 

£83 pounds per month final estimate !


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

If you are renting for 350 to 400 a month, it is normal that electricity water and taxes will be included in this amount. Check with potential landlord prior to signing rental contract.


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

Hepa said:


> If you are renting for 350 to 400 a month, it is normal that electricity water and taxes will be included in this amount. Check with potential landlord prior to signing rental contract.


thanks i would hope that it would be and that i could further get the price down 

i wonder how flexible they could be with negotiating especially when bills are included in rent... 

which is tricky bcos if bills are not included ...they might be more open to negotiating montly rent.

You then need to figure out the differences between rents that do include bills but mite not budge on price...

tricky if you want to get the best saving


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> thanks i would hope that it would be and that i could further get the price down
> 
> i wonder how flexible they could be with negotiating especially when bills are included in rent...
> 
> ...




Don't forget that many apartments/villas etc can be rented out for big bucks during the holiday season.. my daughter makes more in rental during July/August than she could if she had a long term tenant paying rent all year.


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Don't forget that many apartments/villas etc can be rented out for big bucks during the holiday season.. my daughter makes more in rental during July/August than she could if she had a long term tenant paying rent all year.


i see.... when do you think is the latest ill get a deal ? in july august most things snapped up? 

hopefully early june there will be plenty choice and bargains!


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> i see.... when do you think is the latest ill get a deal ? in july august most things snapped up?
> 
> hopefully early june there will be plenty choice and bargains!




Can't see why there would be bargains at that time of year.. just told you the summer is big bucks..


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Can't see why there would be bargains at that time of year.. just told you the summer is big bucks..


yes ok but thats summer but im talking long term rental ...

end of may pushing it?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> yes ok but thats summer but im talking long term rental ...
> 
> end of may pushing it?




I suppose it depends on what sort of property you are looking at.. for me I would not rent out our property on a long term those months.. one weeks holiday rental from each month is what you are looking to pay in a month with bills included..


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> I suppose it depends on what sort of property you are looking at.. for me I would not rent out our property on a long term those months.. one weeks holiday rental from each month is what you are looking to pay in a month with bills included..



what you trying to say ? even if its advertised at 350 pm at mo it could go up to 500 pm in the summer even with long term rental? 
 please no


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> I suppose it depends on what sort of property you are looking at.. for me I would not rent out our property on a long term those months.. one weeks holiday rental from each month is what you are looking to pay in a month with bills included..


Yes, best wait til after the summer.

I don't know about bills being included on a long let though....even a one or two bed at that price. I don't know anyone in that situation. A holiday let, yes, but not a residential contract, which is what he would have.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> what you trying to say ? even if its advertised at 350 pm at mo it could go up to 500 pm in the summer even with long term rental?
> please no




No that is not what I am saying... 

I can get between 500-600 euros a week june july august... renting out one week each month to a holiday maker will give me approx 1800 euros..

It would take me 5 months to get that from a long term rental plus I would have all their winter bills and electricity is not cheap in Spain

So why should I let my place out long term at the beginning of the summer season?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> Yes, best wait til after the summer.
> 
> I don't know about bills being included on a long let though....even a one or two bed at that price. I don't know anyone in that situation. A holiday let, yes, but not a residential contract, which is what he would have.



personally I would not entertain it... no way am I paying bills for someone to have electric fires on in every room, no lights switched off etc
but he has been led to believe that bills will be included


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

i dont know why i havent thought about this i thought there was so many for rent people are semi desperate to rent them out, i guess your place must be popular that you know for sure it will rent in summer

this is a worry :\ wasnt plannign on coming out till end of may .:confused2:


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

riginally Posted by Hepa 
If you are renting for 350 to 400 a month, it is normal that electricity water and taxes will be included in this amount. Check with potential landlord prior to signing rental contract.


Lol not in my world or property


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> personally I would not entertain it... no way am I paying bills for someone to have electric fires on in every room, no lights switched off etc
> but he has been led to believe that bills will be included


Has he? Didn't realise that !

I've certainly never heard of it for a long term contract


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> Has he? Didn't realise that !
> 
> I've certainly never heard of it for a long term contract




have a look at Hepas reply on it,


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> i dont know why i havent thought about this i thought there was so many for rent people are semi desperate to rent them out, i guess your place must be popular that you know for sure it will rent in summer
> 
> this is a worry :\ wasnt plannign on coming out till end of may .:confused2:


Not everyone wants summer lets. I've moved at that time of year. If you're looking now , best thing would be to pop over for a week & sort something out now


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

well bills are not that bad! or so i think

anyway if bills are not included i will defanetly only except a negotiation on monthly price 
by 40 euros a month off at the least. 

hmm i think i might need to go out in april to book sumwhere before the summer rush starts ..

could be a good idea atleast ill have it set up instead of wondering the streets on first arrival then 2nd time out i will have my luggage for the stay 

im gettign clever


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> Not everyone wants summer lets. I've moved at that time of year. If you're looking now , best thing would be to pop over for a week & sort something out now



cant be now will have to be start of may time or end of april 

hope flights arent to bad


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> have a look at Hepas reply on it,


Just saw it...too easy to miss things on the phone. Maybe on Hepa's island that's the case, but not here in Javea.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Common place here low rentals, stacks of property empty, 400 a month all included is a high rental. I have an acquaintance who rents a one bed apartment on the coast for 250 monthly all included.

If you are a property owner and desperate to rent, then it is market forces that will decide your income, other wise your property remains empty until August. The street where I live 66% of property remains empty throughout the year. Local people just do not have the cash to take holidays and the northern European tourists visit the larger islands, where it is a somewhat different story.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el_cartero said:


> Knew it  hahah xx
> 
> i dont see a cost of living sticky at the top of forum ?
> 
> ...



Think about it......we all live in different types and sizes of properties. We have varied lifestyles. Some use gas more than electricity, others vice-versa.
If I tell you that your rent is less than my bi-monthly electricity bill (which it is) that's not going to help you.
My bill is so high because I have a much higher potencia than I currently need but even with reduced potencia it will still be higher than that of someone living in an apartment because I have a pool so use a pump in summer and a pump to drain during heavy rain.
Some people use a lot of air-con in summer, especially in apartments. So I can save on that as the rooms in my house are well-ventilated.
Some of us pay more for internet because they need a more reliable service for work reasons or they need faster speed.
Some of us have higher water bills because we have bigger families (thankfully I don't) and use more water for the washing machine, bathing etc.
So it's not easy to give an all-encompassing answer.
Same with food....my OH is vegetarian, I'm not. OH doesn't drink, I do but a couple of bottles of good but relatively inexpensive wine a week. I don't smoke.
What can be safely said is that Spain is not a 'cheap' country to live in unlesws your diet consists entirely of cigarettes and alcohol.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> If you are renting for 350 to 400 a month, it is normal that electricity water and taxes will be included in this amount. Check with potential landlord prior to signing rental contract.



I have not come across such an arrangement in my years as either landlord or tenant. It's not something I as a landlord would have signed up to. Too open to abuse.
When we first came here we lived in an apartment for five months (and hated it).
The rent was 900 euros a month and bills were extra. 
Same with the villa we now rent: we pay water, phone/internet and electricity bills and negotiated a 300 euro per month reduction in our rent last year to enable us to hire and pay our own gardener/handyman.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> Don't forget that many apartments/villas etc can be rented out for big bucks during the holiday season.. my daughter makes more in rental during July/August than she could if she had a long term tenant paying rent all year.


Same with my dil. Her house is unoccupied for nine months of the year but she charges enormous rentals in the high season.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I have not come across such an arrangement in my years as either landlord or tenant. It's not something I as a landlord would have signed up to. Too open to abuse.
> When we first came here we lived in an apartment for five months (and hated it).
> The rent was 900 euros a month and bills were extra.
> Same with the villa we now rent: we pay water, phone/internet and electricity bills and negotiated a 300 euro per month reduction in our rent last year to enable us to hire and pay our own gardener/handyman.


But your world is almost a thousand miles and a thousand years away from ours. Here in the most southerly part of Spanish territory life style is completely different. It seems to be the norm to rent all inclusive, heating and air-conditioning are virtually none existent therefore electricity bills are very low. We just do not need heating.

On the coast where most of the properties are rented, today in coldest January it was mid twenties and rarely goes below 18ºc and the summers do not get really hot. Hence cheap property to let. However in August it is different.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> But your world is almost a thousand miles and a thousand years away from ours. Here in the most southerly part of Spanish territory life style is completely different. It seems to be the norm to rent all inclusive, heating and air-conditioning are virtually none existent therefore electricity bills are very low. We just do not need heating.
> 
> On the coast where most of the properties are rented, today in coldest January it was mid twenties and rarely goes below 18ºc and the summers do not get really hot. Hence cheap property to let. However in August it is different.


We don't heat here very often. The past few weeks it's been hot and sunny, at least 25C. Most people need aircon as it can be extremely hot in summer.
But you are right,it's expensive round here. We ended up here because my son and dil have property here - trust my dil to choose an expensive area...
That place we paid 900 euros for was a rip-off. We discovered other renters were paying 600 euros. 
We made the mistake of turning up to view in a newish Mercedes CLK convertible.
We sold that car to pay the first year's rent on our villa.
If the euro doesn't fall against the £ we'll be selling ourselves to pay next year's rent....


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Same with my dil. Her house is unoccupied for nine months of the year but she charges enormous rentals in the high season.




And of course the wear and tear on the household goods and furniture is nothing like it would be if someone was there all year round.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

You do get some here including bills at 3-400€.


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## el_cartero (Jan 23, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> You do get some here including bills at 3-400€.


isnt it true that your better to read spanish adverts like papers etc for the best rates instead of the english worded websites and noticeboards.

i heard you get a better rate this way 

people are just out to make money from non spanish ..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

el_cartero said:


> isnt it true that your better to read spanish adverts like papers etc for the best rates instead of the english worded websites and noticeboards.
> 
> i heard you get a better rate this way
> 
> people are just out to make money from non spanish ..


the Spanish websites & owners do tend to be more realistically-priced, and are more likely to have owners who really do want long-term tenants


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el_cartero said:


> isnt it true that your better to read spanish adverts like papers etc for the best rates instead of the english worded websites and noticeboards.
> 
> i heard you get a better rate this way
> 
> people are just out to make money from non spanish ..



Sorry but I must take issue with that last statement which in my experience of over three years living in Spain is without foundation.
I'm sure many posters here would agree that you are more likely to be cheated and ripped off by low-life Brits....we certainly were when we first arrived. Many landlords advertising in the British press or via British agencies will themselves be British.
And anyone of any nationality who rents their property privately is out to make money. 
Private landlords are not in the business of providing social housing.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry but I must take issue with that last statement which in my experience of over three years living in Spain is without foundation.
> I'm sure many posters here would agree that you are more likely to be cheated and ripped off by low-life Brits....we certainly were when we first arrived. Many landlords advertising in the British press or via British agencies will themselves be British.
> And anyone of any nationality who rents their property privately is out to make money.
> Private landlords are not in the business of providing social housing.


it might have been true once though, although not _all_ are/were out to rip off foreigners (& I agree that you're more likely to be ripped off by a fellow countryman - although they of course just reckon they are charging a premium for enabling you to speak in English) but I think it's less so now

on more than one occasion in the past I have had a price 'hiked' when the person concerned realised I was English

one memorable instance was several years ago when I rang up about a flat rental - I was quoted a figure....which miraculously went up by 100€ a month when I got there & he realised I was English !!


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> it might have been true once though, although not _all_ are/were out to rip off foreigners (& I agree that you're more likely to be ripped off by a fellow countryman - although they of course just reckon they are charging a premium for enabling you to speak in English) but I think it's less so now
> 
> on more than one occasion in the past I have had a price 'hiked' when the person concerned realised I was English
> 
> one memorable instance was several years ago when I rang up about a flat rental - I was quoted a figure....which miraculously went up by 100€ a month when I got there & he realised I was English !!




Welcome in Egypt
This is very normal in Egypt.. the pricing is as follows
Egyptian
Arab
Western sucker


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

As always it is a case of _caveat emptor_. The Spaniard who is living here with and established office including a _fijo_ phone and a wife and family is *less likely* to cheat you than an English speaking person (of any nationality) living on his own in a rented flat who only ever meets you in a café and who has only got a mobile phone. This applies whether you are buying/renting property, buying a car or arranging for work to be done. Beware, especially, if the said person wants money in advance. If he wants money for materials, ask him what he needs, then YOU get the materials delivered to your place and keep them secure on your premises until the work has been done.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> As always it is a case of _caveat emptor_. The Spaniard who is living here with and established office including a _fijo_ phone and a wife and family is less likely to cheat you than an English speaking person (of any nationality) living on his own in a rented flat who only ever meets you in a café and who has only got a mobile phone. This applies whether you are buying/renting property, buying a car or arranging for work to be done. Beware, especially, if the said person wants money in advance. If he wants money for materials, ask him what he needs, then YOU get the materials delivered to your place and keep them secure on your premises until the work has been done.


yeah but...............the guy who hiked the rent was Spanish - his family is well known in the area - not quite a 'founding father' family - but not far off



& the (English) agent we are _still_ having trouble with nearly 5 months after we moved out is established with an office & we had known them for years 


I'm sad to say I recommended them to others too, and they have had the same problems


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yeah but...............the guy who hiked the rent was Spanish - his family is well known in the area - not quite a 'founding father' family - but not far off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As they say, the only things that are certain in this world are death and taxes. I have slightly edited my original post and highlighted "less likely" because without specifics, one can never be sure.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I would always rent in the Spanish market - never the British - the Spanish are far more realistic about rental values. 

I have only come across one utilities-included deal here. The tenant leaves the aircon on all summer with the windows open.

I have not had a problem getting my deposit back - I just told him straight that I wouldn't be paying the last month's rent and he was OK with that but I have heard that others do have problems.

Internet costs more than 30Euros a month.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I would always rent in the Spanish market - never the British - the Spanish are far more realistic about rental values.
> 
> I have only come across one utilities-included deal here. The tenant leaves the aircon on all summer with the windows open.
> 
> ...


yes, that's what we learned to do after the first time we were stung - unfortunately sometimes you trust the wrong people though


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

We all learn from our mistakes


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

We paid two months dceposit for the 900 euros a month apartment I mentioned. We realised very quickly that we had been ripped off and the agents were crooks and the likelihood of getting our 1800 euros back was negligible.
So we didn't pay the last two months.
We had our LR window smashed in our 'secure' garage....the agent had a key.
Like the elephant I do not forget. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
I carefully examine parked cars resembling a vehicle I last saw the H de P driving.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Unfortunatly a lot of Agents are crooks!!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

Please tell me you're not going to "return the favor"...



I rented a room in a flat my first year here. I got very lucky as it was quite the posh summer place that the landlady rented to "responsible" students. I had no issues with her or my roommates and we split the utilities. I had worse experiences in Canada than here, even with my shaky Spanish that first year!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> Please tell me you're not going to "return the favor"...
> 
> !



If you mean me.....well, 'Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord'......but sometimes the Almighty needs a little terrestrial help.
I bear grudges.
This greedy, cheating h de p is well-known for dodgy practices in our small area so I'm in a queue for payback.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> If you mean me.....well, 'Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord'......but sometimes the Almighty needs a little terrestrial help.
> I bear grudges.
> This greedy, cheating h de p is well-known for dodgy practices in our small area so I'm in a queue for payback.


I'll say the same thing I say to the kids: What do you gain from this? Is it *really* worth it? 

(This is a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer.)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

halydia said:


> I'll say the same thing I say to the kids: What do you gain from this? Is it *really* worth it?
> 
> (This is a rhetorical question, you don't have to answer.)


The trouble is that, especially in Mary's case, they are two ladies on their own and, if they don't stand up for their rights, the macho male in Spain will think that they are a push-over and will form a queue to see who can make the most profit. If Mary gets her own back, she will gain respect not only from the said males but also their wives who will rally round in their support. Act weak and you will be treated as a weakling and become a victim of the pack, act strong and the common herd will admire and respect you. 

You go for it Mary!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

By anonymously breaking a window?

I'd think a bit of negative, true, word of mouth might be more worthwhile and less possibly legally problematic than violence.

I'm going to stop with this last comment. This is not going to continue well.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

halydia said:


> By anonymously breaking a window?
> 
> I'd think a bit of negative, true, word of mouth might be more worthwhile and less possibly legally problematic than violence.
> 
> I'm going to stop with this last comment. This is not going to continue well.


Should you not be directing this to the dodgy landlord who allegedly broke Mary's LR window. Mary hasn't actually said that was the sort of action she was contemplating. There are other options such as shopping somebody for having an out of date/No ITV or defective tyre(s) broken headlight, etc.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

If this is the case, then I apologize. I had understood this situation due to previous posts to be an "eye for an eye" situation.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

halydia said:


> If this is the case, then I apologize. I had understood this situation due to previous posts to be an "eye for an eye" situation.


Now you see how easy it is to be conned! I can assure you that it wasn't done deliberately, more tongue-in-cheek. Maybe she *was/is* planning eye-for-an-eye, I don't know but you automatically assumed the guilt of a false accusation... I didn't say that the defective tyre/broken headlight/out-of-date ITV previously existed or how they become as they were or even why Mary happened to become aware of them and, subsequently, as a conscientious citizen decided to draw the attention of the relevant authorities to them.

Yes, OK, you are allowed to clip me round the ear but not to hard!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> By anonymously breaking a window?
> 
> I'd think a bit of negative, true, word of mouth might be more worthwhile and less possibly legally problematic than violence.
> 
> I'm going to stop with this last comment. This is not going to continue well.



Break a window??? Nothing so crude and obvious.
I would point out , to substantiate Baldy's post, that sometimes you need to do things you find distasteful. Sadly, it's the way of a part of the world.
In the UK, we owned two companies, one of which specialised in truck repairs. It's a very macho world as you can imagine. 
People did, initially, try to rip us off. We took action. No laws or bones broken, debts nevertheless recovered.
Had we not, we would have been prey for vultures. We would have been seen as pushovers and unscrupulous customers could have ripped us off for thousands of £.
Then our workforce would have suffered.
I'm afraid that there are corners of the world that most people don't have to stray into. But they exist. I have moved between several worlds in my life, some not very pleasant. But I've learnt a lot that, had I remained within the polite professional world, I would never have dreamed existed. I taught in a tough neighbourhood and our businesses were in the same area. You don't have huge truck repair workshops in leafy suburbs. We were burgled several times and through sources found the culprits. We handed them over to the police.
On the whole, I think I'm the better for my experiences of the seamier side of life. as I have few if any illusions. I'm often amazed at how naive some people are.
Neither I or OH are butch, tough females. But as females, as Baldy says, you sometimes have to prove you have *******


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