# Electricity v. gas?



## passiflora

Having just had another hefty electric bill from Iberdrola (almost 300E for 2 months) we are trying to think of ways to cut this. Our water is heated using an electric boiler which is on 24/7 Would we be wiser do you think, to change to a gas water heater? We are only two in a small house and can't really understand why the bill is as high as it is. We've had an electrician out to check the supply etc and he said all was correct so we want to try and find ways of economising. Currently, it means it's costing us 5E a day for electricity- or so himself calculates!
Anybody got any ideas??


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## NickZ

passiflora said:


> Our water is heated using an electric boiler which is on 24/7 ?


Gas versus Electric I think what you really need to consider is an on demand boiler. Or even a solar heater.


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## jimenato

We are two living in a large house, a bath and shower every day with electric water heating and oven, gas hob and gas room heater. Our electric bills are about 100 Euros per month (at least that is what they should be - Endesa continually get it wrong)..

It is a good idea to read your electric meter every day and write it down - the electric companies make many errors and this will help you find them. It will also highlight any unusual usage - you will start to see a pattern and any deviations from that pattern will be noticeable. 

Same with water by the way, I noticed that we had used several tonnes of water while we were away for a couple of weeks and found and fixed a large leak at the end of the garden which reduced out bill from 200 Euros per quarter to 80. 

Having said that I would always prefer gas for water and room heating and If we owned our house I would change the boiler to gas.


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## Guest

We use bottled butane for the small conventional 4 burner & oven stove plus a separate on-demand hot water heater that is so old that it has a pilot light. A bottle is consumed about every 3 weeks. Each full bottle costs around 17€. A delivery truck comes by about every two weeks to pick-up any empties and replace them with full ones.

I say bottles, but they are actually small orange tanks. The modernized farmhouses around here have the tanks located outside next to the kitchen. The older not updated places have the tanks stored under the counters in the kitchen... the latter possibly being dangerous as there could be a gas leak where the disconnect between tank and regulator occurs.

Prices for new butane on-demand hot water heaters run from 200€ to 500€ (prices in Leroy Merlin). Solar panel/tank setups run 2,500€ to 3,500€ (again, prices from Leroy Merlin).


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## neilmac

Just a thought but are you being charged the correct standing charge? It's very complicated to explain briefly and I am sure that your electrician would have checked your wattage. A year or two ago (you may have been here) all meters had to be altered to reflect the potential usage. If that didn't happen the maximum wattage was applied. It wouldn't account for all of the cost but thought it worth a mention in case you were not aware. There has also been a recent claw back of tax adding to bills which may or may not now be coming to an end. Probably wont make a huge difference to your bills but just a couple of thoughts.


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## Tio

neilmac said:


> Just a thought but are you being charged the correct standing charge? It's very complicated to explain briefly and I am sure that your electrician would have checked your wattage. A year or two ago (you may have been here) all meters had to be altered to reflect the potential usage. If that didn't happen the maximum wattage was applied. It wouldn't account for all of the cost but thought it worth a mention in case you were not aware. There has also been a recent claw back of tax adding to bills which may or may not now be coming to an end. Probably wont make a huge difference to your bills but just a couple of thoughts.


I would have thought that it was unnecessary to have the water heater on all day. We have ours on for an hour in the morning and it does all day including showers.


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## baldilocks

Electric water heating in Spain is a definite No NO An immersion heater in a tank has to run almost continuously to keep that tank of water hot unless you are prepared for it to run cold at some point or you can have it on a timer so that it heats when you know you are going to want to use it but then that heated water goes cold once the heater is off. The instantaeous electric shower (7kW) is not practicable because the _potencia_ of the supply needs to be high leading to higher fixed cost. The best way is to have a gas multipoint water heater that only heats the water as and when you need it. You could preheat the water with a solar panel, meaning that you proabbly will not use the gas for water heating during the summer months but you need to offset the cost of installation against the gas saving.

For cooking, again gas. It is more flexible as far as control is concerned. You can run the water heater and the gas stove off the same bombona. Get a modern gas-stove that has an oven with a thermostat (many, especially the older ones are either on or off) which enables you to make cakes, etc.

We have two bathrooms (both in use) hence two showers plus the stove in the kitchen and we use a bombona about every four weeks.


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## snikpoh

baldilocks said:


> Electric water heating in Spain is a definite No NO An immersion heater in a tank has to run almost continuously to keep that tank of water hot unless you are prepared for it to run cold at some point or you can have it on a timer so that it heats when you know you are going to want to use it but then that heated water goes cold once the heater is off.
> 
> ...


I would have to disagree with this. We changed over from an 'on-demand' butane system to electric last year and it's really very cost effective.

Firstly, there is nothing worse than having the gas run out whilst you're having a shower

secondly, the high-end electric heaters these days are VERY efficient. Ours is outside in all weathers but is so well insulated that it is never affected by the temperature. Our electricity bills didn't rise noticeably once it was installed either.


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## baldilocks

snikpoh said:


> Firstly, there is nothing worse than having the gas run out whilst you're having a shower


Auto change-over. Two bombonas sit side by side connected through a changeover valve. When the first one runs out the supply is automatically switched to the other bombona seamlessly.


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## whitenoiz

I too leave our 1.5Kw electric water heater on 24/7 for the simple reason that we have found that it consumes less electricity over a 24 hr period just 'trickle' heating the water than costs to heat a full tank from warm to hot twice a day. During the winter, we also have heating on 24/7 in the living room on a single thermostatically controlled oil filled radiator topped up if necessary with hot air blown from the air-con the bedroom heating is provided by a single Econoheat panel rated at 700w which is on from around 6pm til 8am. We also have one of these in the bathroom (though its not recommended by the manufacturer. Togeteher its expensive yes but our gas bills for a 4 burner gas hob amount to around 25€ per year. (One and a half bottles). I guess its swings and roundabouts really... our winter leccy bills are vary between 250 and 300€ per month. We tried room heating with a wood burner but ours burns fuel at a rate faster than the Flying Scotsman and we need to have a window open to provide combustion air so its a bit self defeating!
Don't forget that the major suppliers of electricityare, from April 1st, reverting to bi-monthly billing with no estimated readings in future. All meter readings will be 'Actuals'... Will need careful monthly budgeting, because for us at any rate, 650€ will be a hefty chunk of money to find....


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## 90199

300 € !!!! Blooming Hummer!!!!

Move to the Canary Isles, ours is 1.20€ daily, all electric, no gas. water heater always on.


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## gus-lopez

whitenoiz said:


> Don't forget that the major suppliers of electricityare, from April 1st, reverting to bi-monthly billing with no estimated readings in future. All meter readings will be 'Actuals'... Will need careful monthly budgeting, because for us at any rate, 650€ will be a hefty chunk of money to find....


Well that should do the unemployment figures some good ! :clap2:
Since 2007 when Iberdola laid off there meter readers around here & started using a service company , I don't need both hands to count how many times the meter has been read! One year , 2009, they never came at all. :rofl:


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## gus-lopez

Hepa said:


> 300 € !!!! Blooming Hummer!!!!
> 
> Move to the Canary Isles, ours is 1.20€ daily, all electric, no gas. water heater always on.


I was thinking that myself ! lol.
I moan at paying 70€ :lol2:

I have friends with the day/night rate who showed me bills for april & may last year & they were 20 odd euros & 33. I think I might go down that route sometime.


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## passiflora

WOW! Thank you for all your replies-----still none the wiser though!! I do cook, most days, on an old type gas cooker outside in a room at the end of the porch,but have been thinking of investing in a modern one with a thermostat as I do like to bake. I shall ask various people, Spanish and English, in this area and see what their bills are like. We do have a meter reader come every two months at the moment although last year, she was conspicuous by her absence. Perhaps Iberdrola are still clawing back some of that old tax so will see whjat the next bill brings and then decide on some positive action.


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## whitenoiz

*Hepa*... If I had my time over again, I would probably plump for somewhere in the region of the Costa Calma or Jandia on Fuerteventura.

*gus-lopez*


> Since 2007 when Iberdola laid off there meter readers around here & started using a service company , I don't need both hands to count how many times the meter has been read! One year , 2009, they never came at all.


Bit of thread drift but... a tale worth telling... 

Little story about meter readers... and Endesa... Back in 2006 when our property was being 'reformed' (by what must surely be the most black-hatted vaquero ever to have left England), somehow he and his team managed to blow up the electricity meter, just three days after Endesa installed it. Endesa came out to the house, removed the meter and installed a 'temporary bridge' pending the supply and fit of a replacement meter so that work could proceed. That temporary bridge remained in place for almost two years... during which time meter readers came and went, each noting the absence of the meter and promising to get the matter attended to. 

During this two year period, all we ever paid for our electricity was the standing charge of around 19€ every two months, despite the fact that we were living there full time, summer and winter. Of course they caught up with us eventually, but not before a new meter reader appeared on the scene and took pictures of the installation. This lead to a rather snotty letter from Endesa and a bill in two parts that totalled in excess of 2,500€. A new meter was subsequently installed and the bills over the next two years were adjusted to take into account the previously over-estimated bill.

Then, in 2010 we had another letter from Endesa pointing out that we were still on builders supply, the contract for which was due to expire in 14 days time... and suggesting pointedly that we needed to set in place a regular Domestic contract for which we would need a new Bolletin and a Licence of First Occupation.

Only problem... we had neither. A consequence of our having sacked our bungling builder for incompetence and malpractice. 

New electricity installation regulations had been introduced since that first installation and Endesa confirmed that work was necessary to bring our installation into line with the new requirements. Endesa would not issue a new contract until a) the Licence of First Occupation was in place, and b) a fresh Bolletin was issued by a qualified electrician certifying currency with the new regs. We appointed a local electrician to carry out the required works and he cracked on with the job (950€) and issued the all important bolletin. He also contacted Endesa on our behalf and set the wheels in motion for the generation of a Domestic contract.

Obtaining the Licence from our local Town Hall turned out to be another joke, because although our 'builder' had registered the plans for work to be carried out a) they had never been approved and b) the planning application had never paid for. 200 € later they were happy enough to do it retrospectively, subject to a satisfactory report from a Technical Architect of our choice.

We appointed a local architect to do the work and three days later he issued the 'Certificado de Final Obras.' (fee 450€). True to their word the Town Hall then issued the Licencia de Primero Ocupacion. So, we had the bolletin and the licence and a new contract was being generated by Endesa... no problem, we thought at least we will have continuity of our electricity... Wrong!!!!

About a week later Endesa wrote to us saying the new contract would be available for signing and would be sent out by Correos in 'a couple of days'. 

So...three days later...It's a dark cold January night and I had gone down into the neighbouring village to get some dog food or something... my mobile phone rang... it was my wife telling me in no uncertain terms to get my sorry ass back home because a rep from Endesa had just turned up, removed the meter and main supply fuse and plunged the house into darkness and promptly bu**ered off. The reason given was that the original contract had expired and the new one remained unsigned (presumably on someone;s desk somewhere in the bowels of Endesa). 

I contacted our tame electrician who in turn contacted Endesa. He was given authority to instal a 'temporary bridge' to restore the supply... He came out from his home about 80Kms away and fitted the bridge... another 100€ charge!

Three days later the new contract arrived by post which I duly signed and returned to Endesa. Another week passed and the same rep from Endesa that had gleefully cut us off re-appeared to install a new meter and supply fuse. When he saw the temporary bridge he was very discourteous accusing us of electricity theft and thratening all kinds of sanctions. I again phoned our leccy who explained the facts of the case to him. No apologies were forthcoming from the Endesa rep. He installed the meter and the fuse, demanded a copy of the Bolletin and the Licence of First Occupation and then drove off in a huff...

Endesa....bunch of incompetent vaqueros... Left hand never knows what Right hand is doing.


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## baldilocks

whitenoiz said:


> Back in 2006 when our property was being 'reformed' (by what must surely be the most black-hatted vaquero ever to have left England), somehow he and his team managed to blow up the electricity meter, just three days after Endesa installed it.


Are you saying, assuming that I read it correctly, that you employed a Brit builder and leccy?

It sounds like the one we had to do some work. The electrician claimed he had licences to work both in UK and Spain. He was useless. A local painter that we employed kept tripping the power whenever he went near a junction box (no cover on it) and we found that the wires were loose in the terminal blocks and kept shorting out adjacent wires. Another socket had been poorly installed and was loose, in addition the wires were bare for about ½" outside the terminals with the consequence that they shorted on the metal frame.

So many Brits come here having done just a bit of DiY back home and set themselves up as builders, plumbers, electrician, roofers, etc - they are not only useless, some are downright dangerous and that is not including the ones who contract to do a re-roofing get several thousand Euros in advance for materials, disappear and are never heard of again.


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## whitenoiz

*baldilocks* 

The leccy that did the original instal was indeed a Brit as was the 'builder'. 

The leccy that did the secondary work for compliance with the revised requirements of the Bolletin and who liaised with Endesa on our behalf was also a Brit but he was in partnership with a Spanish leccy and between the two them they did a good job for us. There was a lot of rewiring to do, a new style metal outdoor meter and fuse cupboard to be installed, a new indoor cupboard with a new style consumer unit and installation of an ICP. 950€ represented a lot of unexpected expense but they did nothing that wasn't specifically demanded by Endesa so probably a fair price and no complaints from me on that score.

Its quite conceivable that the builder concerned and the original leccy may have been involved with your property too given our relative locations. Said builder gave it up after a while and started doing Satellite and 'totally free internet' instals... (no doubt piggybacking onto other peoples WiFi or Wimax...) Don't know what he's up to these days; one can only hope he went back to the UK. Dangerous and incompetent people...


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## Justina

whitenoiz said:


> *Hepa*... If I had my time over again, I would probably plump for somewhere in the region of the Costa Calma or Jandia on Fuerteventura.
> 
> *gus-lopez*
> 
> 
> Bit of thread drift but... a tale worth telling...
> 
> Little story about meter readers... and Endesa... Back in 2006 when our property was being 'reformed' (by what must surely be the most black-hatted vaquero ever to have left England), somehow he and his team managed to blow up the electricity meter, just three days after Endesa installed it. Endesa came out to the house, removed the meter and installed a 'temporary bridge' pending the supply and fit of a replacement meter so that work could proceed. That temporary bridge remained in place for almost two years... during which time meter readers came and went, each noting the absence of the meter and promising to get the matter attended to.
> 
> During this two year period, all we ever paid for our electricity was the standing charge of around 19€ every two months, despite the fact that we were living there full time, summer and winter. Of course they caught up with us eventually, but not before a new meter reader appeared on the scene and took pictures of the installation. This lead to a rather snotty letter from Endesa and a bill in two parts that totalled in excess of 2,500€. A new meter was subsequently installed and the bills over the next two years were adjusted to take into account the previously over-estimated bill.
> 
> Then, in 2010 we had another letter from Endesa pointing out that we were still on builders supply, the contract for which was due to expire in 14 days time... and suggesting pointedly that we needed to set in place a regular Domestic contract for which we would need a new Bolletin and a Licence of First Occupation.
> 
> Only problem... we had neither. A consequence of our having sacked our bungling builder for incompetence and malpractice.
> 
> New electricity installation regulations had been introduced since that first installation and Endesa confirmed that work was necessary to bring our installation into line with the new requirements. Endesa would not issue a new contract until a) the Licence of First Occupation was in place, and b) a fresh Bolletin was issued by a qualified electrician certifying currency with the new regs. We appointed a local electrician to carry out the required works and he cracked on with the job (950€) and issued the all important bolletin. He also contacted Endesa on our behalf and set the wheels in motion for the generation of a Domestic contract.
> 
> Obtaining the Licence from our local Town Hall turned out to be another joke, because although our 'builder' had registered the plans for work to be carried out a) they had never been approved and b) the planning application had never paid for. 200 € later they were happy enough to do it retrospectively, subject to a satisfactory report from a Technical Architect of our choice.
> 
> We appointed a local architect to do the work and three days later he issued the 'Certificado de Final Obras.' (fee 450€). True to their word the Town Hall then issued the Licencia de Primero Ocupacion. So, we had the bolletin and the licence and a new contract was being generated by Endesa... no problem, we thought at least we will have continuity of our electricity... Wrong!!!!
> 
> About a week later Endesa wrote to us saying the new contract would be available for signing and would be sent out by Correos in 'a couple of days'.
> 
> So...three days later...It's a dark cold January night and I had gone down into the neighbouring village to get some dog food or something... my mobile phone rang... it was my wife telling me in no uncertain terms to get my sorry ass back home because a rep from Endesa had just turned up, removed the meter and main supply fuse and plunged the house into darkness and promptly bu**ered off. The reason given was that the original contract had expired and the new one remained unsigned (presumably on someone;s desk somewhere in the bowels of Endesa).
> 
> I contacted our tame electrician who in turn contacted Endesa. He was given authority to instal a 'temporary bridge' to restore the supply... He came out from his home about 80Kms away and fitted the bridge... another 100€ charge!
> 
> Three days later the new contract arrived by post which I duly signed and returned to Endesa. Another week passed and the same rep from Endesa that had gleefully cut us off re-appeared to install a new meter and supply fuse. When he saw the temporary bridge he was very discourteous accusing us of electricity theft and thratening all kinds of sanctions. I again phoned our leccy who explained the facts of the case to him. No apologies were forthcoming from the Endesa rep. He installed the meter and the fuse, demanded a copy of the Bolletin and the Licence of First Occupation and then drove off in a huff...
> 
> Endesa....bunch of incompetent vaqueros... Left hand never knows what Right hand is doing.


Just love your story. Iit sounds like Mexico where I used to live.


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## Pesky Wesky

whitenoiz said:


> Endesa....bunch of incompetent vaqueros... Left hand never knows what Right hand is doing.


More than likely, but the really incompetent one was the Brit electrician that you started off with, surely?


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## whitenoiz

*Pesky Wesky*

Can't agree unfortunately...
The internal installation in the house was in accordance with the domestic regulations in force at the time. The external wiring provision and meter installation was carried out by an Endesa appointed subby in accordance with the current (sic) regulations.

How the builders came to blow up the meter in the first place I have no idea; no subsequent changes to the wiring, internal or external, were found to be necessary when the first 'temporary bridge' was installed or during the intervening two year period when the meter was eventually replaced. 

Maybe it was just a duff meter... who knows! After forty years in aviation electronics I know nothing's guaranteed. 

The rework involved to ensure compliance with the new regs revealed no wiring problems with the original installation. The rewiring that was required was because of physical dimensions of the new style consumer unit.

I don't really have a problem with either of the private electricians; the fact that both the old and the new installations worked and still work without problem indicates that there is nothing wrong. Given that the house is electrically 'active' 24/7/365 if there was a problem it would have shown up long before now!

The fact that Endesa allowed a 'no meter' situation to exist for two years despite reports from meter readers, letters, phone calls and personal visits to the local office does however show a certain degree of incompetence... and the blase action of their sub-contractors when they disconnected us at night in the middle of winter and their reaction at having to reconnect us 10 days later is inexcusable.


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## Pesky Wesky

whitenoiz said:


> *Pesky Wesky*
> 
> Can't agree unfortunately...
> The internal installation in the house was in accordance with the domestic regulations in force at the time. The external wiring provision and meter installation was carried out by an Endesa appointed subby in accordance with the current (sic) regulations.
> 
> How the builders came to blow up the meter in the first place I have no idea; no subsequent changes to the wiring, internal or external, were found to be necessary when the first 'temporary bridge' was installed or during the intervening two year period when the meter was eventually replaced.
> 
> Maybe it was just a duff meter... who knows! After forty years in aviation electronics I know nothing's guaranteed.
> 
> The rework involved to ensure compliance with the new regs revealed no wiring problems with the original installation. The rewiring that was required was because of physical dimensions of the new style consumer unit.
> 
> I don't really have a problem with either of the private electricians; the fact that both the old and the new installations worked and still work without problem indicates that there is nothing wrong. Given that the house is electrically 'active' 24/7/365 if there was a problem it would have shown up long before now!
> 
> The fact that Endesa allowed a 'no meter' situation to exist for two years despite reports from meter readers, letters, phone calls and personal visits to the local office does however show a certain degree of incompetence... and the blase action of their sub-contractors when they disconnected us at night in the middle of winter and their reaction at having to reconnect us 10 days later is inexcusable.


Oh!
The descriptive phrases _the most black hatted vaquero ever to have left England_, and _bungling builder,_ who I thought was the same bloke, to me indicated that some of the blame was to be laid there, and that the work wasn't up to standard even before the hopless Endesa brigade turned up!
Whatever, sounds like getting good quality workmanship has been a problem. Luckily we used a man who has been working on these houses for about 10 years now and is well known by all our neighbours. He wasn't perfect (who is) but at least we knew what his strengths and weaknesses are and he was totally honest in all aspects which is something to be grateful for.


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## whitenoiz

Just read through my previous posts maybe a bit more clarification then I'll shut-up!
The 'black hatted vaquero' just referred to our Brit builder... the electrics, aside from the dodgy (?) meter, was probably the only thing he did manage to arrange almost correctly and that was down to the skills of the tradesman involved rather than him. 
It transpires that the original sub-contracted tradesman could not have issued a bolletin as he didn't / doesn't have the necessary authorisation, so our illustrious builder would have to have engaged another properly authorised leccy to inspect and pass the work. or maybe, being a 'black-hat' he never intended pursuing the matter!

And on that note I'll shut up... one day I might just post something about the rest of the story of our reform!

This thread has drifted a long way off the passifloras original post... my apologies.


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## leedsutdgem

passiflora said:


> WOW! Thank you for all your replies-----still none the wiser though!! I do cook, most days, on an old type gas cooker outside in a room at the end of the porch,but have been thinking of investing in a modern one with a thermostat as I do like to bake. I shall ask various people, Spanish and English, in this area and see what their bills are like. We do have a meter reader come every two months at the moment although last year, she was conspicuous by her absence. Perhaps Iberdrola are still clawing back some of that old tax so will see whjat the next bill brings and then decide on some positive action.


Were a family of 4 and we pay 60-70€ every 2 months for gas (iberdrola). Electric 120€ every 2 months. So much cheaper .


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