# Considering returning to the US (for good)



## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

I've lived in Mexico for around 10 years. My wife passed away the end of last year. She had been sick for two years. Now it just feels like all (or most anyway) of the reasons we had to move to Mexico are flipped upside down.

We came to Mexico because 12-13 years ago she went through treatment for breast cancer and when that was behind us we said - time to smell the roses... (Now the roses have lost their petals).
We have had a comfortable Mexican existence. Nice colonial style house on the outskirts of an ok town/city.
My wife left me (along with all her recipes which just don't taste quite the same) a contact list. It has maybe a dozen or so names on it of which I would call 2 or 3 friends (friendship is a high bar).
The 'excuse' of COVID is passing. Sure people wear masks to get into a store and such but I have been in many many small groups where you don't even see masks.
And then there are all the hurdles being put in place to be an extranjero. Here is a short list...
---

I just started my US taxes today. Because my wife passed last year AND because our address on our tax return is outside the US I can't efile my return (last year I filed via paper and it took something like 4 or 5 months to get my refund).
My Mexican banks (where I have GOOD relationships) are starting to limit my investment options - and even though I am a Mexican citizen I am and always will be an extranjero (there is a little flag in your CURP - and you only ever get one CURP in life).
Because I am an 'international' client Schwab will not let me import my tax data into TurboTax (a recent intentional restriction).
Because I am an 'international' client Schwab will not allow me to specify a beneficiary on my brokerage account.
Because I am an 'international' client neither Schwab nor Fidelity will issue me a credit card.
---

It just took me the better part of five months (and some good money) to have my Mexican house placed 100% in my name.
Mexican banks will not allow anyone (foreigner or not) to specify a charity as a beneficiary.
I'm going on 70 and considering where I live (and my lifestyle) it is not likely I will be picking up many new friends (probably would be the same in the US).
Even an 'honest' Mexican will tell you that most (or a lot) of Mexicans are self-centered and inconsiderate (when you look beneath the surface). We once lived in a particular state in the US where I could say the same thing (ya'll).
There is some Mexican food I really like but for the most part my diet is remarkably similar to what is was in the US (especially now with my limited cooking skills).
I'm reaching an age where I can't do as much as I could before. And I would say for my age I am in very good shape. Gardening (which I used to really enjoy) is getting a little old.
Living alone now I am much more aware (concerned) with what happens to me if I fall and hurt myself.
Ok, I probably watch too much TV (and I am going through football withdrawal pains at the moment) - but when I do watch TV it is stuff via a US vpn using Roku or Amazon etc...

So what's the point ? I have very little interest in exploring (on my own) all the places we never got to in Mexico. I know I have to go somewhere else. This house was way too big even for the two of us (and 3 cats). I no longer want to own a house (in fact I may not want to 'own' anything). I want a beach and I have been watching a lot of YouTube videos to compare today's Mexican beaches with those in say Florida. Florida has (for the most part) dependable water supply etc. While healthcare is a lot more expensive in the US - it is my personal opinion at the moment that often times a Mexican healthcare professional (while having the best of intentions) often times 'wings-it' - or applies the most frequently used solution to a number of issues. 

I guess this post is like the flip-side of all those posts from people considering leaving the US to 'retire' to Mexico...


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

As someone who's always been single, I totally understand how it's simply no fun to do tourism-type stuff by yourself. I've been living in Cancun 5 years and have never been to Chichen Itza. If somebody comes to visit me who wants to go, I'll enjoy it with them. Otherwise, I can't be bothered to go alone.

I am in Cancun partly because I couldn't afford to be right on the beach in Florida. It's not just the cost of a condo, it's the taxes and condo fees on the condo (assuming ownership, not renting). Those two items would cost me $15000-$20000 a year more in Florida. 

I would recommend that you start eating out more. Not as much for the food or diet variety as the simple act of getting out of the house and interacting with some people, even on a non-friend basis. At Carl's Jr, everyone knows my name, lol. It's emotionally unhealthy not to get out of the house every day.

I agree with downsizing to an apartment. Don't get one too small, though. A nice balcony would let you have a plant or two.

You could mitigate most of the banking hassles by unwinding your decision to be completely upfront with them about where you live. You'd do that by renting a room (not even necessarily an apartment) somewhere in the states for three or six months, getting a US phone number, driver's license, and switching all your bank accounts to that address as your "permanent" address. You wouldn't even need to actually stay there the whole time, just be in and out enough to grab mail a few times. Then you could go into the dont-ask-dont-tell mode that most of us are in.

I think eventually for you I'd recommend an independent living community like my Mom was in, back in the US. A place where you have your own apartment, but eat one meal a day in the common dining room with other residents. You form a lot of casual acquaintances, and that's maybe enough unless you find a friend or two. It mitigates the problems of living alone. They have activities you can join in or ignore. Choose one with an attached nursing home and you're basically set. Maybe you can find one that's located near a beach, they must have them.

Apart from tourism, you could still do some traveling, to beaches where you just relax for a week. Find some paperbacks, and sit on the beach under the umbrellas for a week or two and decompress from the hassles you've been through. You could go somewhere like Thailand and experience completely different food, too. 

You do need to try to generate some momentum in some direction or other in your life to avoid depression. Whatever feels "good", go that way. If moving back to the states feels good, do the six-month rental thing I mentioned above as a test. It's going to take a long time to sell your house here anyway.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

Thanks - you have some good ideas there (I know because I have had a few of them myself )

Yes - the depression thing kind of comes in waves. I went out and bought one of those bowflex gyms and I make a lot of use of Kindle Unlimited. I have a really nice gardener who comes by on Tuesdays and Fridays (all day). We work together in the yard. It is big enough for the two of us. I also have a woman come to clean on Mondays - but I try to stay out of her way because watching her drives me crazy. Now that it appears that my interactions with notaries and abagados are winding down they are being replaced with realtor interviews and such. I haven't quite figured out how, but I think I need to be out of this house (and have it empty) when I market it. I have enough funds that I could certainly rent while selling the house. And many here think that now that the covid veil is lifting the house market may pick up.

At this moment Florida is rather expensive. BUT - I have spoken to a nice rental community which is kind of an oasis. (They allow cats). Unfortunately they have no vacancies and also have no waiting list but I may take a trip and suggest an annual lease paid up front. It is just a thought. Perhaps it will open up some when the snowbirds return North. As you suggest that would allow me to be a Florida resident - and if the house in Mexico is not empty I could maybe even go back and forth some (well there is the issue of the cats).


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

I'll just comment on one of your points.


MangoTango said:


> I'm going on 70 and considering where I live (and my lifestyle) it is not likely I will be picking up many new friends (probably would be the same in the US).
> I'm reaching an age where I can't do as much as I could before. And I would say for my age I am in very good shape. Gardening (which I used to really enjoy) is getting a little old.


I am older than you by a bit (77 in a few months). I came to Mexico alone about 15 years ago. I have more friends in Mexico than I ever had in the US. That is because, since I've been in Mexico I've had more time to do things besides get up, go to work, come home. While for most Mexicans, their social interaction is with their family, it is not true of all Mexicans. If you want to meet people you have to get out of the house. After my divorce about 30 years ago, I had almost no friends. It was all couples we had known as a couple. It wasn't until I came to Mexico, stopped working full time and started participating in other activities, that I started making friends.

I like living alone, but I like to see other people once in awhile as well. It takes an effort, but is no harder here than anywhere.

I could comment on the physical activity as well, but I said one point, so I'll skip it.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

TundraGreen said:


> I'll just comment on one of your points.
> 
> I am older than you by a bit (77 in a few months). I came to Mexico alone about 15 years ago. I have more friends in Mexico than I ever had in the US. That is because, since I've been in Mexico I've had more time to do things besides get up, go to work, come home. While for most Mexicans, their social interaction is with their family, it is not true of all Mexicans. If you want to meet people you have to get out of the house. After my divorce about 30 years ago, I had almost no friends. It was all couples we had known as a couple. It wasn't until I came to Mexico, stopped working full time and started participating in other activities, that I started making friends.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply. If I recall correctly you live in like the city center. You don't even own a car (a motorcycle right ?). I live at least a 30 minute drive from the city center and the only reason I ever really need to go there is if I want to use Correo Mexico. I live maybe a 20 minute drive from supermarkets / most restaurants / Costco etc. It is kind of similar to living in that new section of Puerto Vallarta (which really wasn't us) and going to the 'romantic' zone. But in my case it is a little worse (perhaps different is a better word). I live in a gated community with something like 48 homes - about 8 of which are actively lived in. The range of home values (and wealth) varies somewhat - from uber rich to normal middle class (me). My wife made friends when we first got here with one uber rich woman your age. Three years ago she moved out of the community (she hated it here) and now lives in a more 'central' location outside the city. That woman is far and away my best 'friend' in Mexico - but that is just because she is fundamentally a good person. She is my sole heir and beneficiary of all my Mexican assets (she is the only person I utterly trust). She knows who to give it to. If I were to die tonight Cruz Roja gets my house.

I accept full responsibility for the life I have created for myself. Since my wife's passing I had one brief discussion with a Mexican woman who lost her husband 10 years ago - but in a sudden, tragic manner. This woman (who is a professional) and I were alike in that our spouses were our ONLY true friends in life. There really was no reason (other than common sense) to look elsewhere for friendship. Unlike myself she has her work and family (although they live outside Mexico). My wife and I were utterly career/job oriented. She worked in a field where contacts were important. She accumulated a phone book full of professional friends over the years (all without ever having social media accounts). For the most part they all helped each other out career wise. When my wife passed she gave me a long list of people to inform, 98% of whom were people she had worked with. The responses I received from them made me cry. Contrast that with my wife's two sisters who did not even respond.

So - in Mexico - my wife was friendly with two American women. Those friendships entailed perhaps 2-3 emails per month and perhaps 3 coffees per year. Both woman had been to the house once over the years. I have no non-Mexican people I am remotely close to. Actually I somewhat look upon them (non-Mexicans) as 'sharks' always out for something. People who sell other people as 'competent' in something but in the end quite the contrary. People who offer services to other 'expats' for prices like double that a professional Mexican would charge. People who pass their time 'back-stabbing' each other. One of the groups even almost has a 'secret' membership and you have to be voted in  

I've got more to say but I have to take care of some things at the moment. I'm going to post this and continue it later...


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I am 76 , I have lived in Mexico for 20 years and have more friends in Mexico than I ever had before in France or the US.
I am talking about friends who come and stayed at the hospital with me when my husband had to have surgery. People who come and stay with my husband so I can go out.. You get what you give..if you do not go out, do not help people, do not make friends , you will get nothing but everything I put in into this country I received back 20 times and more. 
Right now a kid we took care of as a child and took to France with us and helped through university is buying a lot in his community so we can have a house next to where he lives so he can take care of us when we cannot live alone.. try that anywhere..

Stop at looking or talking about money.. in my life I have known and worked with and for super rich peopleand where are they now? Nowhere.. which is fine but money to me means nothing there are good people and people you can forget about..most very rich people are in that category, they do not need you and believe me they will do nothing if you really need them. 
A distributor of mine told me, when you retire , throw away your contact list, you will not need them and you will count on one hand your friends.. He was right .. Business associates are just that, when the business is gone, they are gone. 

Start doing things you enjoy in whichever country you decide to live and you will meet people and have fun. Start doing things you really enjoy doing now.. The beach is nice but I cannot imagine sitting on a beach by myself, I would go crazy, I used to love it, but no more. 
People change as they get older and it is time to forget about your past and do things you can enjoy now., You are starting a new life and it is up to you to make it enjoyable.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

citlali said:


> I am 76 , I have lived in Mexico for 20 years and have more friends in Mexico than I ever had before in France or the US.
> I am talking about friends who come and stayed at the hospital with me when my husband had to have surgery. People who come and stay with my husband so I can go out.. You get what you give..if you do not go out, do not help people, do not make friends , you will get nothing but everything I put in into this country I received back 20 times and more.
> Right now a kid we took care of as a child and took to France with us and helped through university is buying a lot in his community so we can have a house next to where he lives so he can take care of us when we cannot live alone.. try that anywhere..
> 
> ...


Citali I think we have slightly different definitions of 'friends'. When my wife was finally bed-ridden (in our house) the woman who cleans our house moved into the bedroom and slept on a couch. It was that woman who called for the ambulance to take my wife to the hospital and went with me to the crematoria on the day she passed. BUT - I paid that woman very well for all of her time (and she took the money without refusal). It was like a business arrangement. She is not my friend. I knew her father and we used to talk quite a bit. When he passed we (my wife and I) went to the family's day of the dead feast. Her brother-in-law is my herrero/electrician/plumber/albanil and has done a ton of work for us. I always pay him - but I can call him at any hour and he will come - but he is not a friend - he is just a nice guy. 

My gardener is 39 years old and has 3 young daughters. When my wife was ill he brought his family to our house to sit with my wife. All their idea and no money exchanged. At this very moment he unknowingly is a 10% beneficiary in one of my bank accounts (I need to change that to a fixed amount of pesos). He would do anything I ever asked him to do. He is a truly nice, simple guy (who drives his own cars - plural - and owns little bodegas for extra money. But he is not my friend. 

You say "you get what you give" and maybe there is some truth to that - but in my case the giving is very anonymous. Having no more family EVERYTHING I have goes to charity (both in the US and Mexico). If I return to the US (and manage to sell my Mexican home) I likely will become a one nation person again... 

You mention working for wealthy people. I have known a few of them over the years as well. One guy had Warren Buffett on speed-dial. I worked maybe 10 years for this guy - but whenever he introduced me to one of his powerful business associates or a politician he always said - I'd like you to meet [MangoTango]. He works WITH me (note I never worked FOR him). He spent a good part of his fortune trying to find the cure for a disease which affected his younger sister. When she passed I spent my time at his house (rather than the office). When my wife had breast cancer he said - bring me every invoice/receipt - I am covering the cost of ALL of her care. HE was a friend (who unfortunately took his own life). 

On a more positive note - I called a place (in Florida) this morning where my wife and I rented from nearly 40 years ago when we were just starting out. The same family still owns it. I haven't figured out the logistics and at this moment they have nothing available for me but we may be able to work something out. It would be a great place to use as a 'base'. "Do something you like" I keep hearing. Well - for most of my adult life that involved boating and scuba diving. I'm never owning another boat and I'm not so sure I would want ME as a dive buddy any longer. While I agree with you about lying on the beach - I have always enjoyed 'walking' on the beach (especially at sunrise). We did that almost every morning of our marriage (until we moved to Mexico). AND - just as one of my favorite pass times in Mexico is to walk along Reforma in Mexico City and see all the beautiful young people - I think I might enjoy that back in Florida as well (on the beach).
-----
I hope I am not boring you people here with my situation(s) but in a way I wish I could have had someone hit me on the side of my head and said - hey fella - what's the plan. There are so many little gotcha's in life that no one thinks about. Perhaps what makes me a little different is the total lack of family.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

Mango, moving back to the US might be the best solution for you ...or it might not. We recently moved back to the US when my husband retired from his job in Mexico City. It is great to be closer to our daughters, but we miss Mexico terribly and are mulling over what it would be like to go back, either full or part time. Some of the things that might hold us back you are already well past--- getting residency, moving stuff and setting up a house, acquiring a car, becoming more fluent in Spanish, etc. You have already dealt with most of the frustrations of settling your wife's estate. These headaches are behind you, but the grieving continues--- as it will no matter where you live. Discovering what you want from the next stage of your life will take time.

It might be worth considering where else you might live in Mexico that would give you more everyday people contact. Not with upper class Mexicans---who we found, with some exceptions, to be very unwelcoming--- but with regular folks. Never underestimate the value of acquaintances, the people that you meet and greet in your everyday life, walking, marketing, dining. They may not be bosom buddies, but their smiles and greeting you by name go a long way. Relationships are so important in Mexico. The people you say are not your friends----because you pay them---play a different role in your life than people you hire in the US do.

And not all expats are jerks! We have met many interesting, thoughtful people from all over the world. 

Might you be able to rent a place in a city neighborhood---in Mexico---for a while to get a feel for a different life style while deciding what to do with your house?

Another option is to rent a place where you think you'd like to live in the US to see what it's like to actually live there, before permanently cutting your ties with Mexico. Eastwind made an excellent suggestion to consider an independent living community where you take meals in a common dining room. Check out some of these places and most importantly talk to current residents.

Florida seems to be high on your list. Can you handle Florida politics? I know, I know, Mexican politics are notorious, but there's something about encountering the crazies back in your homeland that can really send your blood pressure skyrocketing. 

Are you enrolled in Medicare Part B? If not, you will pay a penalty to enroll at this point, and medical costs in the US even with Medicare are astronomical. It can take months to get appointments for imaging and specialty care. And there are plenty of doctors in the US who don't have time to listen and just "wing it."

Wishing you well in what is truly one of life's most difficult challenges.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

AnneLM said:


> Mango, moving back to the US might be the best solution for you ...or it might not. We recently moved back to the US when my husband retired from his job in Mexico City. It is great to be closer to our daughters, but we miss Mexico terribly and are mulling over what it would be like to go back, either full or part time. Some of the things that might hold us back you are already well past--- getting residency, moving stuff and setting up a house, acquiring a car, becoming more fluent in Spanish, etc. You have already dealt with most of the frustrations of settling your wife's estate. These headaches are behind you, but the grieving continues--- as it will no matter where you live. Discovering what you want from the next stage of your life will take time.
> 
> It might be worth considering where else you might live in Mexico that would give you more everyday people contact. Not with upper class Mexicans---who we found, with some exceptions, to be very unwelcoming--- but with regular folks. Never underestimate the value of acquaintances, the people that you meet and greet in your everyday life, walking, marketing, dining. They may not be bosom buddies, but their smiles and greeting you by name go a long way. Relationships are so important in Mexico. The people you say are not your friends----because you pay them---play a different role in your life than people you hire in the US do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughtful comments AnneLM. 

Perhaps you should return to Mexico. I know someone who has an excellent colonial style house, in perfect move-in condition. It has a view that causes people's jaws to drop - and it is only 1-1.5 hours outside Mexico City. I'll even throw in a five year old Mexican plated SUV with 10K kms and in showroom condition 

One possibility is for me to rent an apartment/condo in the nice area of Acapulco. I could spend maybe half my time at my house and the other half at the beach - 4 hours away by car. I could probably leave the cats in the house and have them cared for 2-3 days/week - but that clashes with my most recent thought of selling a totally empty house. Have I already mentioned this (?) - I am interviewing realtors at the moment. One woman came by with a guy who was supposed to have experience in valuing properties. Turns out his last job was as a taxi driver. At one point during their visit I caught the guy going through the papers on my desk !!

Another thought was to make a few week long trips over to the Cancun (maybe Puerto Morelos or even Tankah) area and look around for a decent rental. (The cats might be an issue). But I have trouble getting excited for the ultimate relocation such a move would entail.

The beauty (?) of the place I am considering in Florida is that we lived there (granted a long time ago) but - I called a realtor in that area and asked. The complex I have in mind is like an oasis and there is no place else quite like it. And the woman was trying to talk me into one of HER properties. I called the office today and told the woman my situation. They allow pets she said they would have no problem with my 3 cats. That is rare. 

I'm not sure I would ever consider a community living type thing. I would perhaps do some sort of volunteer work (library ?) and rely on that as a 'welfare-check'. My wife's best friend in life - in fact they were living together when I met my wife - is now 78 and living in her own two story townhome in South Florida. Up until last year she worked (as a personal nurse) taking care of a single older woman in a community living place. It had 3 spaces - apartments, common area, and hospital like setting. I have no idea but I'll bet you can blow through a lifetime's savings in a hurry in such a place.

There are few things in life that bore me as much as politics. I could not care less. I am not that sophisticated a person. I have this personal belief that what you see on TV / news is all a distraction anyway. The true powers-that-be are so far behind the scene you will never know them. What you actually see is just someone's idea of entertainment.

No - I do not have Medicare Part B, and I don't think I care. I myself have paid for three surgeries (on ME) in the last two years out-of-pocket. Those scanning machines are dangerous things. You show a doctor/surgeon the results and they can find all sorts of things that need fixing. I recently told an internist - you see something wrong with me in a lab test or something - no problem. Give me a prescription but there are no more surgeries in my future. I've never counted them all but - having been into sports through college - I've had maybe a dozen or so operations. In Mexico I have had at least six (in ten years). No one is dependent on me any longer.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Mango who talked about money or paying the people who came to help me when my husband was in the hospital or help me now that he is home in a wheelchair? None of these people were paid or wanted any money..They are friends not employees..Mexicans take turn at helping each other when there is a problem in the family or with friends and that is the way it was. I also spent some nights at a hospital taking care of a kid when his mother could not be there.. That is called be part of a community or extended family..
I also have a gardener who has helped me many time and a cleaning lady who helps me, but these are employees and are paid for their service. 

I find that going back to a familiar place has always been a mistake for me. Places change, people change and going back to a place that you enjoyed with your wife may be great or may make you miss her even more.. You are going through a tough time , your life has changed and there is no way to be ready for these types of changes. Everyone is different and handles it differently.. 
I hope for you you find a place you can enjoy and relax give it time, don t rush into anything.. Selling a home and finding a new one is another can be pretty streeful as well..so take it easy..


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

Citali - for starters, I am not part of a community nor an extended family. In fact, I would feel awkward in such a situation. I mentioned the day of the dead event we attended. It wasn't terribly large, maybe 6 tables with chairs for 30/40 people. We sat with our hands in our laps at a table with the son-in-law (my herrero) and people one at a time stopped by our table and said hello to us and brought us food. We knew 2 of the 40 people there. Everyone was nice but we obviously did not 'belong' there.

Regarding paying for help with my wife. I guess I looked at it as my taking away from their earning capability. My wife's care disrupted some lives - people who normally go to work (and get paid) were helping me. The one person who really has been an angel for me is the 'wealthy' woman I mentioned. She has always been there and to pay her is an absurd idea. And I guess I should add, I have inherited her network of connections. Without hesitation she can ask one of her many friends (many of whom do work for her for pay) to help me (for free). She pays them for the same reason I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Live has its costs.

I am (and we were) such simple people. We had routines which we rarely deviated from. I would be the most boring person for a private investigator to follow. That is true in Mexico and that was true in Florida. Eastwind mentioned the staff knowing his name at Carl Jr's. If I were to return to South Florida I would go to the same pizza joint, the same hamburger place, the same Italian deli, the same supermarket etc I went to for something like 30 years. Of course many of the people I would run into would be different but the owners are likely the same.

Now one thing that has occurred to me is how it might feel returning to an apartment complex I lived in 30+ years ago and living in a small apartment after a life of living in some very nice large houses. In a way it would feel like living in a hotel room. I guess I am just not looking for new adventures, especially those which involve taking chances/risks. Maybe if it were only me (no cats) and no house full of stuff and I didn't own a car which was purchased in Mexico and would need to be imported and adapted to the US standards AND if I had only a backpack full of clothing and a wallet full of bank cards I would/could be a little more adventurous. Funny - my grandparents (when they were much younger than I am today) came to the US from Europe in many ways similar to what I just described. Well maybe without the wallet full of bank cards.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Only having a packpack has its advantages, no stuff to worry about and nothing to unload.. I have a friend who lost all of her wordly posessions in a fire and she told me she had never felt so free . ot owning stuff or not having stuff owning you is a big plus.
Yes being a renter after owning a place is not that great but I guess one can get used to anything if one wants to.

I came from Europe with one suitcase too and that is not anything I ever thought about intil you brought it up, Now I have ton of stuff that I am in the process of unloading. It makes it easier to pick up and leave when that is what you want to do.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

My two cents:

Without medicare or insurance, I don't think you should live in the US. If you had a stroke or car accident, you'd be hauled off to a hospital and run up a bill for $100k before you woke up. And then the hospital wouldn't allow you to check out, because they are governed by their rules which say they can't let people just check out. They'd insist on holding you and treating you under their rules and prices until they decided to release you. Once you are in a US hospital you lose a lot of your rights to self-determination. 

I think you do need to get out of that house. Both in the short term, by eating dinner out, and in the long term, by selling it. It's no good to be so isolated. I hear that town is half an hour away, but that's ok, an hour a day spent riding in and out will be good for your outlook. Even better if you can take a bus just to rub shoulders with some anonymous people. It's what I do, every day. There are restaraunts near where I live, but I spend 12 pesos to ride the bus into town. I can save the 24 pesos round trip, plus it gets me out of the house longer.

I believe from what you've said that you can afford a large apartment, at least in Mexico. I myself have a 3 bedroom, just for myself. One bedroom is my office, the other is planned to be a hobby room. I don't feel cramped. (I just wish I had some more storage!)

I don't think you're ready for the independent living senior warehouse lifestyle yet, but I brought that up as something to think about for maybe your next stop after the one you're trying to settle on now. When you're 85 you'll be ready for something like that. Those kinds of places are great when you get so you can't drive anymore. In the case of my Mom, she lived alone in a big house from the time my Dad died (when she was 78 or 79) until she was 95 and the maintenance just got too much for my brother and I to help her with from remote locations. That was a little too long to wait to move into the independent living place, because she had trouble learning all the new things (like how to take their shuttle bus to the grocery). 

So you could buy another house, a bit more "in town" somewhere, or an apartment close to or on the beach if you want to ditch the maintenance right now. If you buy a house, get some place without stairs - a "ranch". 

I think some of your frustrations with mexican bureaucracy will burn off, and you're better off staying here than Florida. Psychologically, I think going back to live in a place you lived before with your wife is not the best - too many things will be constantly reminding you of her. You need someplace new and fresh to turn a mental page. Not that you won't look back and remember, but you don't want to be constantly living in the past, just a little bit every now and then.


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## kphoger (Apr 22, 2020)

MangoTango said:


> the woman who cleans our house moved into the bedroom and slept on a couch. It was that woman who called for the ambulance to take my wife to the hospital and went with me to the crematoria on the day she passed.
> 
> Her brother-in-law ... I can call him at any hour and he will come
> 
> My gardener ... brought his family to our house to sit with my wife. All their idea and no money exchanged. ... He would do anything I ever asked him to do.


Forgive me for being blunt, but I think your assessment is incorrect. It sounds to me like those people _are_ your friends. You're just not _their_ friend.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

Friends or not, another advantage to living in Mexico is that you can always find someone you can pay for tasks it would cost hundreds of dollars for in the US. Are any of them friends as in soulmates? Do they know you on the same level as an old college roommate? Do they have to?

We had a wonderful housekeeper in Mexico. Yes we paid her, and well. I didn't have the same kind of relationship with her as I did with any of my friends back home, or with the people I worked on church committees with, or with my knitting group friends. But we shared gossip and laughed about our families. She taught me many things about Mexico, and was patient with my Spanish. She brightened my day and enriched my life. Whether that fits your definition of a friend or not, contacts like that can be very uplifting.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

I


kphoger said:


> Forgive me for being blunt, but I think your assessment is incorrect. It sounds to me like those people _are_ your friends. You're just not _their_ friend.


Well I can kind of see your point but as I've said before on this thread - it depends on your own definition of friendship. The people you highlight from my post have definitely helped me in various ways, some related to my wife's passing and some throughout most of my stay in Mexico. I think all of the people I have mentioned are in some way or another familiar with my legal hassles related to my wife's will and the deed on our house. Gosh - I've lost 20 lbs since my wife's passing. They can see something is up. But none of those people can help me other than to say "take care of yourself", "you need to eat more" etc and truly mean it. We could start with the language barrier. Sure I've picked up some Spanish and I can get my points across in some crude manner but I can't discuss subtle/important topics with them. This isn't going to come out right - but there is a kind of 'class-like' barrier as well. None of them would ever disagree with me. Actually I think my herrero has a little bit of genius in him and I often defer to him on project ideas and such.

I just don't see ever receiving 'life' advice from them and I don't see myself accepting it. I can say the same of most of the people (expats included) I have met in Mexico (I've already mentioned exceptions). For me - there are perhaps 3 types of people in Mexico (and maybe if I lived on a dirt road in Chiapis my opinion would be different).


There are the people who almost live what would be average US middle to upper middle class (and up) lives. Perhaps most doctors are in this class. People who come from wealthy families. (I could tell you some stories you would find hard to believe).
There are people who live very happy, kind of well to do blue collar lives. They own business, have university degrees, drive late model cars. Have houses in nice privadas.
Then there are people who are very happy with their very simple lives. They have virtually no education. They drive the remains of what once were taxis 20 years ago (or they walk or perhaps take the bus for 12 pesos). They are not 'lower class' individuals - but what label can I put on them ? Economically challenged ?

My only way to help them (the third category) is to pay them well. Extremely well. My gardener is already worried about what happens to his life if I were to ever sell this house. Yesterday he asked 'How long do you think it will take to sell the house'. I wanted to put him at ease and said - maybe 3 years. I probably pay my gardener twice as much as I should and I pay the cleaning girl almost as much to basically push a mop around the floor for 5 hours a week. 

My 'mechanic' (he owns several businesses and nice houses) lives within a mile of my house - as a crow flies. I went to pick up my car from his shop one day and there was an 'expat' woman waiting there as well. I waited my turn and she approached me and said - 'I know you, you live [where-ever]'. My mechanic overheard her and said - "No he lives by me. The only difference is his road is paved and mine is dirt". He has been to my house numerous times and I have been to his house. He speaks excellent English. He might be close to being a friend. But when his wife left him two years ago and I offered my help he declined. (She returned six months later). And when my wife passed and he came to my house and offered help - I did not take him up on his offer.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

AnneLM said:


> Friends or not, another advantage to living in Mexico is that you can always find someone you can pay for tasks it would cost hundreds of dollars for in the US. Are any of them friends as in soulmates? Do they know you on the same level as an old college roommate? Do they have to?
> 
> We had a wonderful housekeeper in Mexico. Yes we paid her, and well. I didn't have the same kind of relationship with her as I did with any of my friends back home, or with the people I worked on church committees with, or with my knitting group friends. But we shared gossip and laughed about our families. She taught me many things about Mexico, and was patient with my Spanish. She brightened my day and enriched my life. Whether that fits your definition of a friend or not, contacts like that can be very uplifting.


Well AnneLM - please see my previous response to kphogar. I think you and I kind of said similar things with different words.

I have to get ready for a 9AM appointment at the bank to have them figure out why the credit card (for which they charge me 7000 pesos/year) sometimes doesn't work. (Eastwind wants me to get out of the house more and interact with people  ) (una broma).


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

MangoTango said:


> You say "you get what you give" and maybe there is some truth to that - but in my case the giving is very anonymous. Having no more family EVERYTHING I have goes to charity (both in the US and Mexico).


"You get what you give", was not a reference to money. It meant that in order to have a circle of friends, you have to put out some energy. You need to call them from time to time, ask how they're doing, what they're up to, ask if they'd like to meet for lunch, or invite them over for coffee or a drink or dinner.
As another poster pointed out, those people who were there for your wife and you when she was ill and dying _are_ your friends. That you didn't see it like that is strange.

It sounds like your wife was the one who had friends because she made the effort to cultivate friendships and that you never did- you only required her company and have no idea what friendship is or how to make and keep friends nor did you ever see the value in doing so.

So now that you are on your own, the value of friendships and what they require to be lasting is something you are going to have to learn late in life, but it's something you need to do, or you are going to be quite lonely and unhappy. And those with a circle of friends are definitely documented in studies to be generally physically healthier and live longer.


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## MangoTango (Feb 8, 2020)

surabi said:


> "You get what you give", was not a reference to money. It meant that in order to have a circle of friends, you have to put out some energy. You need to call them from time to time, ask how they're doing, what they're up to, ask if they'd like to meet for lunch, or invite them over for coffee or a drink or dinner.
> As another poster pointed out, those people who were there for your wife and you when she was ill and dying _are_ your friends. That you didn't see it like that is strange.
> 
> It sounds like your wife was the one who had friends because she made the effort to cultivate friendships and that you never did- you only required her company and have no idea what friendship is or how to make and keep friends nor did you ever see the value in doing so.
> ...


Surabi - this post may be deleted by a moderator - but it really shouldn't be because if you can make a post such as yours then I should be able to say that - in general - I do not appreciate your comments. I think you need to work on some people skills as well.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

MangoTango said:


> And when my wife passed and he came to my house and offered help - I did not take him up on his offer.


While there are times when we truly don't want help and just need to get through things on our own in our own time, try to keep in mind what someone once said to me, as I'm also a person who tends to decline offers of help. 
"When you decline to accept a gift someone offers you (be it a physical gift or otherwise), you are depriving that person of the joy that comes with giving."

Learn to accept offers of help or acts of friendship graciously.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

Gosh Mango, Surabi's only saying what most of the other posters here have said, and what you've said yourself! We're all concerned about you, and none of us wants to see you make a costly move and end up in the same situation you find yourself in now. We've all known---or been---the guy/gal who's depended on our partner/family/coworkers for their/our social life. Those friend making muscles don't grow without a workout! Moving might just do the trick. But it's not the only way to approach things.


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