# Proposed "Contract for Integration"



## Guest (Nov 10, 2010)

Did anyone happen to catch this on the news tonight? The PP in Catalunya has proposed that immigrants who become unemployed should leave. 

El PP catalán conmina a los inmigrantes sin trabajo a que se marchen de España · ELPAÍS.com

_"Quien quiera trabajar en Cataluña deberá comprometerse a cumplir las leyes de nuestro país", ha dicho la candidata, que ha añadido los otros requisitos que a su juicio deberían cumplir los inmigrantes: respetar los "valores y costumbres" de España, aprender los idiomas oficiales en Cataluña, trabajar activamente por integrarse y volver a su país de origen si no pueden sostenerse por sí mismos por haberse quedado sin trabajo. La candidata no ha explicado en qué plazo de tiempo debería marcharse el inmigrante sin trabajo._

"Whomever wants to work in Catalunya should agree to follow the laws of our country," said the candidate, who added the other requirements that immigrants should obey: respect Spanish "values and customs," learn the official languages of Catalunya, actively work to integrate, and return to their country of origen if they couldn't take care of themselves because they've become unemployed. The candidate did not explain how soon the unemployed immigrant should return."


Interesting. For the vast majority of you who are EU citizens, this is/should be no big worry. HOWEVER, for those of us who are not this could potentially become a big headache. If things weren't tough enough already...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

halydia said:


> ...... and return to their country of origen if they couldn't take care of themselves because they've become unemployed.


Isnt that the case anyway????! 

Jo xxx


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Absolutely - if the UK adopted that approach then it would be a better place!!!


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2010)

jojo said:


> Isnt that the case anyway????!
> 
> Jo xxx


Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand if the government currently offers INCENTIVES to return to your home country, but does not make you sign any sort of official contract to integrate in which you MUST return to your home country if you become unemployed. 

Thankfully, I think this is a publicity grab. I *hope*.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2010)

steve_in_spain said:


> Absolutely - if the UK adopted that approach then it would be a better place!!!


....

Imagine you aren't a EU citizen and you're reading this news. 

How's your Spanish? And your Valencian? (Note they ask for the official language*s* in Catalunya). 
Are you fully integrated into the Spanish community, or do you regularly spend time with your fellow countrymen? 
You've got a job, right?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

halydia said:


> ....
> 
> Imagine you aren't a EU citizen and you're reading this news.
> 
> ...



The bigger picture is that people, especially Spanish tend to be patriotic and tribal!! This sort of article comes up in most countries/political manifestos every now and again - even in the UK, altho its not the "politically correct" view there! Whatever these things say, the world has gone beyond shutting boundaries and insisting nations stay as they always have been. Modern day travel, international alliances etc will make rules such as these impossible

Jo xxx


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

halydia said:


> ....
> 
> Imagine you aren't a EU citizen and you're reading this news.
> 
> ...


This is clearly aimed at people who think they can come to spain, not make any attempt to integrate, and do nothing but drain the system. When I say that the Uk should adopt a similar approach what I mean is that millions come from other countries (I am talking pakistan, etc etc) into the Uk, claim god knows how much in benefits, live in their own communities, speak no english and drain the economy - racist? no - not at all, but like most brits I am fed up of the taxes I pay going to support these people when my poor old mum (an grandma before her) are having to spend their life savings to pay for their care!

Yes I respect Spain for taking a stern view on this kind of things, and this is one thing that I respect about this country - the UK is weak, we dare not say anything incase it causes offence - but Spain speak as they find and look after their own.

I don't think Spain are saying for one moment that anyone form outside of the EU cant stay unless they do XYZ, but if they rely on the state because they have made no attempt to integrate, fit in, contribute etc then of course, why should spain support them!


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2010)

steve_in_spain said:


> *1.*This is clearly aimed at people who think they can come to spain, not make any attempt to integrate, and do nothing but drain the system. ... claim god knows how much in benefits, live in their own communities, speak no english and drain the economy - racist? no - not at all,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



1. There's a whole lot of "English speaking immigrants" who do, at the very least, part of this. 

2. Should something like this go national, I fear loose interpretation of the law.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> 1. There's a whole lot of "English speaking immigrants" who do, at the very least, part of this.
> 
> 2. Should something like this go national, I fear loose interpretation of the law.


and if there is a 'loose interpretation' I doubt it will matter if the target is from an EU country or not


in reality it is what happens

I have known many come & go to & from Spain (some several times) in the past 7 years & the vast majority have gone when they have been unable to support themselves financially


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

steve_in_spain said:


> This is clearly aimed at people who think they can come to spain, not make any attempt to integrate, and do nothing but drain the system. When I say that the Uk should adopt a similar approach what I mean is that millions come from other countries (I am talking pakistan, etc etc) into the Uk, claim god knows how much in benefits, live in their own communities, speak no english and drain the economy - racist? no - not at all, but like most brits I am fed up of the taxes I pay going to support these people when my poor old mum (an grandma before her) are having to spend their life savings to pay for their care!
> 
> Yes I respect Spain for taking a stern view on this kind of things, and this is one thing that I respect about this country - the UK is weak, we dare not say anything incase it causes offence - but Spain speak as they find and look after their own.
> 
> I don't think Spain are saying for one moment that anyone form outside of the EU cant stay unless they do XYZ, but if they rely on the state because they have made no attempt to integrate, fit in, contribute etc then of course, why should spain support them!


I agree with you almost 100% Steve, not so sure as to why you singled out Pakistanis, though. Most Asian immigrants tend to be hardworking, in my experience at least, and in any case many Pakistanis living in the UK are British-born.
The real problem as I have seen it is the large number of migrants from EU states such as Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia etc. -in fact nearly all the former Communist states - who have the right to live and work in the EU, thanks to Mrs Thatcher.
Although we have belatedly put quotas on arrivals from the newer entrants it's impossible to refuse entry without a work permit and ialmost impossible to detect and deport them back to Romania or wherever.
In fact, it's a mirror image of Brits coming to Spain. I know we share the same views about the non-Spanish speaking unskilled wannabe immigrants many of whom end up working 'on the black' if they work at all. 
Until the economic situation improves which won't be for some time yet I will never encourage anyone without a guaranteed job or business opportunity to up sticks and move here.
Spanish jobs for Spanish people, British jobs for British people, as Gordon Brown promised but couldn't deliver because of the Single European Act signed by Maggie T.
That doesn't include people like yourself, Shiny Andy and others who are actually job creators thus helping Spaniards to get back into work.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I thought that was why it was pronounced Cat-a-loony-ya.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I know it's fashionable to blame Maggie for everything but seeing as Romania and Latvia joined the EU in 2007 and Latvia in 2004 yet Maggie left power in 1990, I'm struggling with this one.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I know it's fashionable to blame Maggie for everything but seeing as Romania and Latvia joined the EU in 2007 and Latvia in 2004 yet Maggie left power in 1990, I'm struggling with this one.


It's very simple. The Single European Act, which allows for the free movement of goods, money and people across the borders of EU member states, was signed into law in 1987 and bears the signature of the said lady.
Mrs T. was very keen on the enlargement of the EU by bringing the former Soviet satellite states into membership. Presumably she hoped that 'widening' would also bring about a more shallow, less vertically integrated institution.
Whether or not the SEA was a good thing - it does allow us immigrants to live and work in other EU states - is a matter for debate. 
But the fact that it was signed in the reign of Queen Margaret is a fact.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with you almost 100% Steve, not so sure as to why you singled out Pakistanis, though. Most Asian immigrants tend to be hardworking, in my experience at least, and in any case many Pakistanis living in the UK are British-born.
> The real problem as I have seen it is the large number of migrants from EU states such as Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia etc. -in fact nearly all the former Communist states - who have the right to live and work in the EU, thanks to Mrs Thatcher.
> Although we have belatedly put quotas on arrivals from the newer entrants it's impossible to refuse entry without a work permit and ialmost impossible to detect and deport them back to Romania or wherever.
> In fact, it's a mirror image of Brits coming to Spain. I know we share the same views about the non-Spanish speaking unskilled wannabe immigrants many of whom end up working 'on the black' if they work at all.
> ...


Mary - chica! Irefered to the pakistani race as a generalisation, having sent a few years in the North of england I saw high numbers of people coming in from that country claiming a lot of money but obviously like everything theres good and bad everywhere. I employed a lovely young muslim girl who was a great worker but even she told me stories of all of her family (particularly older genrations) who have come accross for an easier wealthier life.

As you quite rightly said though the eastern europeans are a huge problem - and in spain too!

Whos shiny andy? do i know him?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> who have the right to live and work in the EU, thanks to Mrs Thatcher.





mrypg9 said:


> Spanish jobs for Spanish people, British jobs for British people, as Gordon Brown promised but couldn't deliver because of the Single European Act signed by Maggie T.





mrypg9 said:


> It's very simple. The Single European Act, which allows for the free movement of goods, money and people across the borders of EU member states, was signed into law in 1987 and bears the signature of the said lady.
> Mrs T. was very keen on the enlargement of the EU by bringing the former Soviet satellite states into membership. Presumably she hoped that 'widening' would also bring about a more shallow, less vertically integrated institution.
> Whether or not the SEA was a good thing - it does allow us immigrants to live and work in other EU states - is a matter for debate.
> But the fact that it was signed in the reign of Queen Margaret is a fact.


The SEA was only putting into law what the EU (and all its predecessors the, Common Market etc.) is all about anyway as enshrined in the Treaties of Rome. The fact that it was signed in her reign is correct. It was also signed by a lot of other people in their 'reigns' presumably including the Spanish leader at the time. To blame it all on Maggie is a little harsh especially when done in the same sentence as Spanish jobs for Spanish People.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I really don't have a problem with the Single European Act, even though it is a neoliberal capitalist concept devised to facilitate the free movement of labour (blah blah blah, sorry). What is wrong with wanting to go and live and work or retire in another country? We're all doing it, aren't we? What is wrong with being an economic migrant? Why are they stigmatised?

There is a big myth that immigrants in Britain cost the taxpayer money, when in fact they pay far more into the economy through their taxes than they draw from it in benefits. And Eastern Europeans do many of the jobs that the British don't want, just like the Asians and Afro-Caribbeans did in the 20th century - except these days it's things like picking cabbages in Lincolnshire.

As for Catalonia/Catalunya, they have elections coming up and the Right are playing the race card, as they do everywhere. But the nationalists are just as bad with their insistence on promoting Catalan ahead of Castellano - it just disadvantages school leavers on the job market and prevents many well-qualified people from being able to work there.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

halydia said:


> Did anyone happen to catch this on the news tonight? The PP in Catalunya has proposed that immigrants who become unemployed should leave.
> 
> El PP catalán conmina a los inmigrantes sin trabajo a que se marchen de España · ELPAÍS.com
> 
> ...


I was not intending to vote for any PP candidate anyway in the municipal elections next year, but now if this article is remotely true I'm avoiding those folks like the plague they are. The article breathes xenophobia.

By the way, how many of Spaniards from other areas and EU immigrants in Catalunya have learnt Catalan? I for sure haven't even though I can understand it quite well due to the similarities with French. Respecting Spanish values and customs is very vaguely discribed but OK with me as long as one doesn't ask an immigrant to assimilate to these values. The presence of other cultures is educative for the society as a whole, demanding respect for Spanish values is one thing, asking to adopt them is unacceptable.

About every aspect of the idea is very wrong in my opinion. By the way, Catalunya is not a country. I know I will anger some of my neighbours with this, but facts are facts: this is a part of Spain. The article using the term "country" for Catalunya leaves a sour nationalist taste in the mouth.

Never thought I'd ever say something positive about Maggie Thatcher but that one law about freedom of movement within the EU is a good thing IMO (except for the neoliberal/capitalist undertone, but then it has still done enough good to give her credit for it... ONLY for this one)


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2010)

gerrit said:


> By the way, Catalunya is not a country. I know I will anger some of my neighbours with this, but facts are facts: this is a part of Spain. The article using the term "country" for Catalunya leaves a sour nationalist taste in the mouth.


From what I understand, when she refers to a "country," she is referring to Spain.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Originally Posted by gerrit 
By the way, Catalunya is not a country. I know I will anger some of my neighbours with this, but facts are facts: this is a part of Spain. The article using the term "country" for Catalunya leaves a sour nationalist taste in the mouth.

Unfortunately that's what they want to be & have done ever since Portugal gained independence nearly 9 centuries ago.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> The SEA was only putting into law what the EU (and all its predecessors the, Common Market etc.) is all about anyway as enshrined in the Treaties of Rome. The fact that it was signed in her reign is correct. It was also signed by a lot of other people in their 'reigns' presumably including the Spanish leader at the time. To blame it all on Maggie is a little harsh especially when done in the same sentence as Spanish jobs for Spanish People.


Fact is, she signed, although she claimed afterwards that she han't realised its full implications ('Downing Street Memoirs').
I can't see what relevance the fact that other leaders signed up to it has on the situation in the UK regarding immigration from poorer EU states. 
Nothing in the Treaty of Rome explicitly states that there will be full economic and political integration of member states.
The original roots of the Treaty of Rome lay in the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) whose intention was to prevent post-war future German access to vital resources needed for military purposes. Over the decades successive European leaders have pushed for closer integration on all fronts and have been resisted by whoever happened to be in power in the UK at the time - usually with scant success.
So we have seen the stealthy development of integration over the years....Common Market, EEC, EC now EU. 
I think the SEA was a necessary step for sound economic and political reasons. What amuses me is the contortions of political leaders of all Parties as they try to hide the fact that in spite of their rhetoric (for home consumption) they have allowed their tummies to be tickled.
The mistake we made from the British workers' point of view was not to impose quotas on immigration from new EU states from the former Soviet bloc. Only the UK and the ROI allowed unrestricted access.
But the Blair Government succumbed to pressure from employers' organisations who benefited hugely from the low wage levels and flexible labour laws.
Governments of all Parties have made angry noises but have gone with the flow over Europe and why not?
The EU has combine economic clout which individual states do not possess and the world economy is coalescing into trading blocs anyway.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I really don't have a problem with the Single European Act, even though it is a neoliberal capitalist concept devised to facilitate the free movement of labour (blah blah blah, sorry). What is wrong with wanting to go and live and work or retire in another country? We're all doing it, aren't we? What is wrong with being an economic migrant? Why are they stigmatised?
> 
> There is a big myth that immigrants in Britain cost the taxpayer money, when in fact they pay far more into the economy through their taxes than they draw from it in benefits. And Eastern Europeans do many of the jobs that the British don't want, just like the Asians and Afro-Caribbeans did in the 20th century - except these days it's things like picking cabbages in Lincolnshire.
> 
> ...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't have a problem with the Single European Act, even though it is a neoliberal capitalist concept devised to facilitate the free movement of labour (blah blah blah, sorry). What is wrong with wanting to go and live and work or retire in another country? We're all doing it, aren't we? What is wrong with being an economic migrant? Why are they stigmatised?
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally....the UK hands out more in welfare spending than it gains in tax revenue from all sources...
> Solutions to this problem on a postcard, please


All these comments about welfare spending in the UK need to be put in the past tense, after yesterday's announcements. £18 billion in cuts ... let's hope the private sector comes up with the jobs.
:flypig: :flypig: :flypig:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I'd be more concerened that the income of 606,661,000,000 , which has probably fallen in the following 2 years , is exceeded by the expenditure of 676,000,000,000. Shown here.File:UKExpenditure.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Mary - I don't get it. According to this wiki entry
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> All these comments about welfare spending in the UK need to be put in the past tense, after yesterday's announcements. £18 billion in cuts ... let's hope the private sector comes up with the jobs.
> :flypig: :flypig: :flypig:



And that is what worries me......


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## libove (Feb 24, 2008)

Going back to the original idea of this thread, while no doubt there is a xenophobic element to it (some of the, er, "impromptu art" on the PP posters in the Barcelona metro this month are quite entertaining  ), very much of what's in there is already law, as some have pointed out.

If you come to a country, where you aren't a citizen (which gives you a birthright to be here, no matter what) and you haven't become a permanent resident (by which time you have earned your keep for at least five years), and then you lose your job and can't get another one **and don't have savings on which to support yourself**, then at some point you do have the obligation to leave. (Lacking, as the original poster pointed out, is the time frame after which this duly-maligned "contract" proposal would start applying the outward pressure).

Personal story: I moved here in 2008. I was recruited by a European company and relocated to Spain to be part of their global management. I'm not an EU citizen; Spain granted me work permission on the grounds of my background and skills, and the job offer from this Spanish company. Just less than a year later, I - along with many other qualified people at the company - got the sack, thanks to the company's poor financial position even before the worldwide recession turned their prospects towards the poorer. (Why do I stress the "just less than a year"? .. because at my level of salary, I had to pay in, at the maximum, for a full year, before I would be eligible for the insultingly small unemployment insurance payment. So, after paying in, in my less than a year, more than most guest workers paid in two or three years, I was entitled to ... nothing. And, someone receiving unemployment insurance, under current Spanish law, is welcome to stay, at least until that unemployment coverage runs out. Which it didn't so much, as it got extended.)

I stayed. I spent savings. Lots and lots of savings. I funded the Spanish state with my rent, groceries, travel, all of the taxes involved therewith, and of course the social welfare and income taxes I'd paid - at the highest level in the system - during the year I was working here. Nobody asked me to leave, because that wouldn't have made sense. I funded more than I took.

And now I'm back to work at another company, happily still here in Barcelona, again paying in at the highest end of the system. It was worth it. I like it here that much.


We definitely must call out the xenophobes where they are (and they're damnably clever about not quite saying what we know damned well they're saying), but we also must carefully avoid playing into their hands by simply broadly opposing them, if our opposition would appear to include the specific parts of their arguments where they're not only correct, but supported by current law. To argue against them without being much more specific than they were is to give them broader ammunition and appeal. (This same thing is true of the right wing extremists in my native United States against whom I work hard as well).

Viva España ! I love it here !


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