# Ever wondered where those poor Africans who land on Spain's beaches end up?



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Costa del Sol! 

This will put you off your supermarket salad ...

Salad slaves: Who really provides our vegetables - video | Business | guardian.co.uk


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The Costa del Sol!
> 
> This will put you off your supermarket salad ...
> 
> Salad slaves: Who really provides our vegetables - video | Business | guardian.co.uk


wow

interesting video! i dont know what else to say to that!


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Ahh I posted this link earlier.. I will delet it 

Maiden


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The Costa del Sol!
> 
> This will put you off your supermarket salad ...
> 
> Salad slaves: Who really provides our vegetables - video | Business | guardian.co.uk


Very good video highlighting something that's been going on for ages, that farmers and politicians in Spain, and the governments of the importing countries know about, but the average consumer does _*not*_ know about, neither in Spain nor in the countries that import.

Felicity Lawrence, the jounalist in the video is the author of the book "Not on the label" (published in 2004 and she's still involved in these issues). There's a chapter on salad and another fact that stayed in my head was that the ready washed salad leaves that you buy in a plastic bag are washed in chlorine. _"The chlorine level is usually maintained at a minimum of 50mg per litre - twenty time higher than the average swimming pool _"
She talks about migrant workers in the UK (Derbyshire, Vale of Evesham, Hampshire) and in Spain in Nijar and Roquetas...
She also has interesting things to say about logistics, supermarkets, bread, eggs, ...
You can look at the book and read the first few pages here


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Very good video highlighting something that's been going on for ages, that farmers and politicians in Spain, and the governments of the importing countries know about, but the average consumer does _*not*_ know about, neither in Spain nor in the countries that import.
> 
> Felicity Lawrence, the jounalist in the video is the author of the book "Not on the label" (published in 2004 and she's still involved in these issues). There's a chapter on salad and another fact that stayed in my head was that the ready washed salad leaves that you buy in a plastic bag are washed in chlorine. _"The chlorine level is usually maintained at a minimum of 50mg per litre - twenty time higher than the average swimming pool _"
> She talks about migrant workers in the UK (Derbyshire, Vale of Evesham, Hampshire) and in Spain in Nijar and Roquetas...
> ...




I vaguely remember an article on cut flowers grown in Africa for supermarkets and that labour work in the greenhouses whilst the chemicals for killing bugs etc is being sprayed.. they of course have no protective clothing or even basic dust masks to help prevent the breathing and swallowing of chemicals. I have never bought cut flowers since.


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

So, were these people kidnapped from their home countries and dragged kicking and screaming to Spain?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> So, were these people kidnapped from their home countries and dragged kicking and screaming to Spain?


What ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Beachcomber said:


> So, were these people kidnapped from their home countries and dragged kicking and screaming to Spain?


Did you watch the video? I suspect not.

They paid $1000 (often their life savings or their families´) to people traffickers who promised them jobs in Spain, because there were no work prospects in their home countries. 

The Spanish authorities rounded them up off the beaches in the Canary Islands and dumped them in the area just north of the Costa del Sol, where until recently they were able to earn a living because there was a shortage of labour in the polytunnels producing tomatoes and peppers, mainly for British supermarkets. Employers liked them because they could hire them on a daily basis with no questions asked and avoid all the usual employment regulations.

Now because of the recession more Spanish people are willing to work for half the minimum wage in appalling conditions, so the Africans are basically living in shanty towns with no income and no hope. They can´t be returned to their home countries because they have no papers and no money. Fortunately there are Spanish charities providing food and shelter for them.

I do urge you to watch the video, it might help you get a better understanding of the economics of the real world.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> I vaguely remember an article on cut flowers grown in Africa for supermarkets and that labour work in the greenhouses whilst the chemicals for killing bugs etc is being sprayed.. they of course have no protective clothing or even basic dust masks to help prevent the breathing and swallowing of chemicals. I have never bought cut flowers since.


Good for you. I saw banana plantations in Costa Rica where organophospates banned in Europe and the US are used, shortening the life expectancy of the workers by 20 years. After that I only bought organic Fairtrade bananas in England, and now I buy Canarian ones, which I hope are produced ethically (I will go and find out one day!)


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Why would I have not watched the video? I was merely enquiring how they came to be there. Now I know that they came to Spain of their own accord and are currently suffering the effects of the economic downturn. Why should that attract such an antagonistic response?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Beachcomber said:


> Why would I have not watched the video? I was merely enquiring how they came to be there. Now I know that they came to Spain of their own accord and are currently suffering the effects of the economic downturn. Why should that attract such an antagonistic response?


Well obviously if you had watched the video you would have seen the people being interviewed explaining why they were there, and you wouldn´t have suggested that they were dragged here kicking and screaming, That´s all.

So be honest - did you watch it before you made that comment?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> Why would I have not watched the video? I was merely enquiring how they came to be there. Now I know that they came to Spain of their own accord and are currently suffering the effects of the economic downturn. Why should that attract such an antagonistic response?


Because you said...


> So, were these people kidnapped from their home countries and dragged kicking and screaming to Spain?


...which seems atagonistic, like you want a reaction??
It would be nice of you to watch the video, which answers your question, and may answer others that you have


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It's not just north of the cds , it's all the way up past Almeria & in to Murcia & beyond. Around here the labour has always been Morrocans & south Americans although in the past few years there has been more Africans appearing. The conditions are the same & in fact here , for picking, are worse regarding pay. They pick lettuces for 2c each one & that was in the good times ! Also they pick & pack.  Cut in the field, ,cellophane, in to cardboard boxes ,on to lorry & straight for export ! Washed with too much chlorine would be an improvement! A few spaniards have always done the work around here althogh the vast majority have been the Morrocans & S/ americans. standingon the corners has always gone on , even in the good times, looking for work but where before it was a few , now it's an avalanche.
Most markets that you go to in the surrounding areas now have a huge amount of stalls withafricans running them , whereas before you'd be lucky to see 1or 2.
You've also got the problem that the majority of Morrocans & South Americans are legal & resent the Africans trying to take what little work there is.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Anybody like to reflect on the fact that this thread has got 12 posts (13 including this one) and has been viewed 212 times whereas the thread about the treatment of dogs has attracted 33 posts and has been viewed 435 times?


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody like to reflect on the fact that this thread has got 12 posts (13 including this one) and has been viewed 212 times whereas the thread about the treatment of dogs has attracted 33 posts and has been viewed 435 times?


I dont know the reason why there are less people viewing. Although Brits have got a reputation for caring more about animals than humans, I wouldnt necessarily say that is true. But may be people with pets find it easier to offer an opinion/solution to the treatment of animals as they feel very passionately about the subject? Both threads are quite depressing and can make people feel they are powerless to change the situation but because the treatment of dogs is, for most people, an everyday subject, they can respond to it more??


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody like to reflect on the fact that this thread has got 12 posts (13 including this one) and has been viewed 212 times whereas the thread about the treatment of dogs has attracted 33 posts and has been viewed 435 times?




I am an animal lover and have always had pets of all shapes and sizes and they have always had a lovely life with me and I was/am always horrified at the treatment some people deal out to animals. 

I have worked in Cairo for many years and on a daily basis I see animal cruelty that is hearbreaking and I wanted to make all the wrongs right in the animal world and I would give to various animal charities here. The cruelty cases I would see would be from these poor people, beating there donkeys.horses, open fly infested wounds, ribs showings, chaffing of bridles and the list goes on and on.
Poverty in Egypt is a poverty that no one sees in the U.K or Europe, no child goes to bed hungry for the simple reason that there is no money, has to miss school so they can work and help out the family finances, runs barefoot or with cheap plastic flip flops. 
In the world there is a pecking order and someone always has to be top dog the poor Egyptian is the bottom rung of the ladder and the only thing below him are his animals and he treats them the way society treats him, no one cares about his child's grumbling belly or lack of education so why should he worry about an animal in his care and more to the point he is astonished that his child is malnourished and no one cares but we point out that his dog/horse/donkey has ribs showing. When you are frustrated with the world and lack of concern for you and you then beating your animal is maybe the only way to vent your frustration.. 
In and ideal world there would be no animal cruelty but maybe if we as a society were much fairer to those lower down the ladder (so to speak) than ourselves then they in turn would pass on that fairness to their animals.
I am not suggesting that only poor people mistreat their animals but I am trying to point out that maybe we get our priorities wrong at times in regards to who we feed first and of course we all like to be labelled as an animal lover.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody like to reflect on the fact that this thread has got 12 posts (13 including this one) and has been viewed 212 times whereas the thread about the treatment of dogs has attracted 33 posts and has been viewed 435 times?


The dog thread has been up twice as long, and there is no mention of dogs in the thread title. I don´t think it´s a reliable indication that people care more about dogs than Africans.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

In the UK its eastern block labour that comes and works the fields etc, the meat packing plant not far from me is staffed by Portugese, the local buses are driven by Albanians and the builders are Polish and they have one thing in common, a good work ethic, they turn up on time and work hard in jobs that locals don't want because its all minimum wage work.

Economic migration has being going of for hundreds of years, don't forget that Britain invited Caribbean workers over in the 50's for manual jobs, recruited Irish Nurses in the 60's, Filipino Nurses in the last few years just as Australia and New Zealand are after our skilled workers.

When the grass looks greener people go in the hope of a feed.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> In the UK its eastern block labour that comes and works the fields etc, the meat packing plant not far from me is staffed by Portugese, the local buses are driven by Albanians and the builders are Polish and they have one thing in common, a good work ethic, they turn up on time and work hard in jobs that locals don't want because its all minimum wage work.
> 
> Economic migration has being going of for hundreds of years, don't forget that Britain invited Caribbean workers over in the 50's for manual jobs, recruited Irish Nurses in the 60's, Filipino Nurses in the last few years just as Australia and New Zealand are after our skilled workers.
> 
> When the grass looks greener people go in the hope of a feed.


Yes we realise that but it doesn't answer why we are more concerned about animals than people


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes we realise that but it doesn't answer why we are more concerned about animals than people


"Ever wondered where those poor Africans who land on Spain's beaches end up?" 

is the title, no animals mentioned, sorry I must have got confused.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> "Ever wondered where those poor Africans who land on Spain's beaches end up?"
> 
> is the title, no animals mentioned, sorry I must have got confused.




ahh but I was replying to pesky


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> Why would I have not watched the video? I was merely enquiring how they came to be there. Now I know that they came to Spain of their own accord and are currently suffering the effects of the economic downturn. Why should that attract such an antagonistic response?



Yes they did come to Spain of their own volition, that's true. Also true that they are like many others suffering the effects of the economic downturn.
Just like the Eastern European and other migrant labourers who helped the UK economy prosper in the boom years, they work for low wages and are often housed in conditions that most of us wouldn't keep an animal in.
It's true that at least they have the opportunity to earn money to send home when times are good and that they have the possibility of earning more than in their native countries.
But some of us may have a rather quaint view that trade, commerce and business in general are not exempt from the obligations of morality and ethics.
People are not commodities, machine tools, mere parts of the production process. 
When we were UK employers we would have considered it beneath us to engage workers who were not paid sufficient to enable them and their families to enjoy a decent, civilised standard of living. We did not regard our employees as tools to be discarded when of no further use. That principled approach to business generally works better than the dog-eat-dog version of capitalism approved by the less scrupulous.
I'm far from being a bleeding heart socialist or liberal..ask Alcalaina and I believe that Africa needs entrepreneurs not aid.
But do not for one moment consider that when we say 'they come of their own volition' we should turn a blind eye to the poverty and hopelessness that push them to leave the country of their birth to work in such degrading conditions for poverty pay.
To do so is frankly indecent.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody like to reflect on the fact that this thread has got 12 posts (13 including this one) and has been viewed 212 times whereas the thread about the treatment of dogs has attracted 33 posts and has been viewed 435 times?


Pesky they are being viewed at exactly the same rate per hour. However the doggie one has a curious title that means you need to view it to know what it is.

So in fact I would suggest the human one is attracting more interest


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ever post something, come back to the thread later and find you want to reply to everyone's posts??

_*Caz. I.*_ You could be right, the treatment or mistreatment of animals is an everyday subject so perhaps people can respond to it more. Maybe we should question why the mistreatment of animals is more of an everyday subject than the mistreatment of humans. Why people are more prepared to talk about animals than other men and women.
*MaidenScotland*. What you describe in Egypt is Spain's _*recent*_ past, I mean even up to the '70's and '80's. Nowadays there are still some areas where people live very rural existence, but not in such extreme poverty as you describe. I think this has influenced the attitude to animals. I'm not saying it's acceptable, just that there may be a history behind much of what we as outsiders see. And, it's evident when you see the conditions that some animals have in our society, next to the living conditions of some people, immigrants or not, that priorities have become mixed.
*bob_bob.* Of course immigration isn't new. Yes the UK has had millions of immigrants over the years, but not many of them come under the conditions that the African immigrants come to Spain in, and then continue to live in the country in such miserable conditions. Some maybe, but not in the numbers we have here and not happening over such a long time period.
_*mrypg9*_.


> But do not for one moment consider that when we say 'they come of their own volition' we should turn a blind eye to the poverty and hopelessness that push them to leave the country of their birth to work in such degrading conditions for poverty pay.
> To do so is frankly indecent.


 Just about sums it up.
_*Nigele2*_. NOW the threads are being viewed at the same rate. I can assure they weren't before my post about reflecting on dogs and people. But I think you've hit the nail on the head. The title of the dogs thread is "Horrific - please read and sign" Is the plight of these people not horrific?? The title of this thread is very descriptive. _*Ever wonder where those poor Africans who land on Spain's beaches end up? *_Unfortunately it's just not interesting enough for many. So to make immigration a "popular" subject we have to have an eye catching title.

Anyway, I didn't really want to end up discussing the ins and outs of immigration in Spain, the UK etc My question was a genuine question and thanks to all who have replied because everything you have said has been interesting to me.
I leave with some photos of immigrants arriving at Tenerife and being helped by the tourists who were sunbathing on the beaches there.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Here when a Cayuco arrives, the occupants are placed in a purpose built prison camp. They are fed watered, clothed and medical needs attended to.

When they are fit to travel the are deported back to Africa.

Needless to say because of this relatively new policy of deportation the Cayucos that arrive are few and far between, and that is a good thing because many of the poor souls died en route, others missed completely the archipelago, and have been found drifting in the Caribbean with no one alive on board,

Hepa


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

The title of this thread presupposes a sympathy for these people that not everyone may share but who will be afraid of saying so for fear of being branded a racist.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Beachcomber said:


> The title of this thread presupposes a sympathy for these people that not everyone may share but who will be afraid of saying so for fear of being branded a racist.



Seeing the state of health of the persons arriving, surely one could not have anything else but sympathy, they are often dead or half dead, they have been conned into spending their life's savings to finance the trip, and are facing deportation.


Years ago, if juveniles arrived on the islands they were not deported, but raised and cared for here. I am friendly with two, both now young men, fluent in Spanish, one is working as a waiter, the other is studying for qualifications in the I.T. industry. One is from Spanish Sahara the other from Morocco, they have both indefinite leave to remain.

Both boys were placed on open boats when they were young children, by their respective families, one whose father had just died, and the family could not afford to keep him. The other with his younger brother when the family had financial difficulties.
After the respective horrendous journeys of hot sun, rough seas, freezing cold nights, they arrived frightened and unable to walk due to the cramped conditions on board.

Nice to say they are happy to stay here, both are characters in their own rights and have assimilated well. The one from Morocco recently returned to visit his family that he had not seen since childhood, he found he had more siblings, but didn't stay long.

Makes me wonder just how can a parent put their children on an open boat, knowing they may never see them again,

Hepa


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> The title of this thread presupposes a sympathy for these people that not everyone may share but who will be afraid of saying so for fear of being branded a racist.


The title of this thread is asking a question which requires a yes or a no as an answer. It's not asking for an opinion, it's giving information.
It's up to the individual if they wish to offer an opinion.
I imagine that any racist comments would be automatically deleted by the mods as would comments unjustifiably branding a poster as a racist.
Basically you can get involved in the thread if you want, but you can just as easily ignore it.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Makes me wonder just how can a parent put their children on an open boat, knowing they may never see them again,
> 
> Hepa


It must be the ultimate sacrifice - drawn on the faint glimmer of hope that their children will have a better life in the "promised land" described by the traffickers, whereas if they stay where they are, they have no hope at all. It is hard to imagine that level of desperation.


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## angela1 (Nov 21, 2009)

I am not in Spain very often and I am shocked to have just watched this video. I stupidly thought when I saw farms that I was driving past that the farmer and "employees" were making a living. I had no idea of the stark reality.

I was very shocked at what I saw. Anyone with any compassion would be. These people are human beings who do not deserve to be living in this way. 

I cannot begin to imagine (and do not want to) what they or their families did in order to raise the funds required for their journey. Steve Hall, a regular poster on this forum, and in my view, an authority on Spain, had a friend who, prior to the world cup tried to raise awareness of refugees. His blog reduced me to tears. He tells of meeting a woman, a new Mum trying to escape and make a better life. She somehow pays the fee to the gang of people smugglers to transport her and her baby. The boat that she and the other refugees were in was swimming with urine, the conditions truly awful. The smugglers had guns. Her baby started to cry and she could not calm her baby. One of the smugglers took hold of the baby and tossed it into the sea never to be seen again. 

The people in this video are our fellow humans and someone's son, brother etc. They seemed to me to be better educated than some of the posts we see on this forum from people in the UK wanting to start a fantastic new life in the sun. Perhaps in the future we should refer them to this video and show them the reality of life in Spain. After all, they are immigrants too.


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