# EU long term residents in Portugal wishing to move to Italy



## seacory (2 mo ago)

Dear Friends,

May wife and I are EU Long Term Residents in Portugal and we wish to move to Italy.
We both pay taxes on our self employment income in Portugal.
My wife also pays into the Social Security system.
Does anyone know the details of how, with our EU Long Term residency status, we can relocate to Italy?

Thanks in advance,
Mr. Cory Sea


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Long-term residents


Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residents sets the conditions under which non-EU nationals can obtain the status of long-term residents, which grant them a set of uniform rights, similar to those enjoyed by EU.




home-affairs.ec.europa.eu





Assuming you mean that you should start there. I think you'd just need to pack up and move. You don't state your nationality.


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

NickZ said:


> Long-term residents
> 
> 
> Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residents sets the conditions under which non-EU nationals can obtain the status of long-term residents, which grant them a set of uniform rights, similar to those enjoyed by EU.
> ...


Not necessarily. Every Member State has some latitude in how they implement the Directive and are allowed to set minimum conditions (usually with respect to income and health insurance). I'm not sure whether Italy requires them to apply at the Italian Embassy in Portugal before moving.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

I'd assume those things would be checked when registering for residency in Italy. 

I thought the whole point of the long term resident status was so people had more or less equal rights with EU citizens.

Italy's requirements for income are very low when it comes to residency. Just over €6k IIRC per person. They could buy into the health system but if they're working that's mandatory.


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

NickZ said:


> Long-term residents
> 
> 
> Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residents sets the conditions under which non-EU nationals can obtain the status of long-term residents, which grant them a set of uniform rights, similar to those enjoyed by EU.
> ...


Thank you very much. We are citizens of Australia, and we hold EU Long Term Resident status in Portugal. So we can just move there? Thank you again.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Assuming you have the paperwork I think so but the safe thing would be to ask at the Italian consulate.


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

Thank you so much for your help, Nick!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

seacory said:


> Thank you so much for your help, Nick!


As said, each individual country has its own rules for third country citizens.

Being a long term resident in one EU country doesn't give you any automatic rights to move to another.

For example, we are very long term, permanent residents in Spain. My daughter, pre-Brexit, worked in Italy. Post Brexit, her former employer asked her to return, but as a now third country citizen she no longer has the right to live & work in Italy, & there was no chance of the employer being able to obtain a work visa for her.

It's the passport that counts, not the residency status.

Your first port of call must be the Italian Consulate in Portugal, to explore visa options.


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

NickZ said:


> I thought the whole point of the long term resident status was so people had more or less equal rights with EU citizens.


As a TCN, I can assure that we do not have the same rights and privileges as EU citizens. The devil is in the details.

For example, Germany requires sufficient funds and comprehensive health insurance (§38a AufenthG), however, the TCN requires special permission to work during the 1st year and health insurance is at least 200 €/month.

Since the Italian income requirements are so low, the main question is whether a D Visa from the Italian Embassy in Portugal is required or if they just apply locally after moving to Italy.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

No visa is a totally different can of worms. A much harder path.

If the OP has gotten long term status then they have the same rights to movement. That's what the OP is asking about. Not coming from outside the EU.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

xabiaxica said:


> As said, each individual country has its own rules for third country citizens.
> 
> Being a long term resident in one EU country doesn't give you any automatic rights to move to another.
> 
> ...





> *Long-term residents*
> 
> To have a stable and secure residence status, granting full access to work, education, and social security is important for the integration of non-EU nationals into the society where they live. This is why the Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residentsSearch for available translations of the preceding link_EN_*•••* establishes that a person who has lived legally in an EU country for an uninterrupted period of five years, can obtain the status of long-term resident.





> *Rights of long-term residents and equal treatment*
> The proposal also aims to strengthen the rights of long-term residents and their family members. This includes the* right to move and work in other Member States*, which should be as similar as possible to the right that EU citizens enjoy. Allowing nationals of non-EU countries who are already EU long-term residents in one Member State to change jobs and move to another Member State for work can help improve labour market effectiveness across the EU, addressing skills shortages and offsetting regional imbalances. It can also improve the EU’s overall attractiveness to foreign talent.


The question is does the OP have that status.


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

xabiaxica said:


> As said, each individual country has its own rules for third country citizens.
> 
> Being a long term resident in one EU country doesn't give you any automatic rights to move to another.
> 
> ...


Thank you for writing. I believe that we are not talking about the same form of long term residency. For example, I was a permanent resident in Portugal before becoming an EU Long Term Resident in Portugal. It is very easy to confuse these two. The EU Long Term Resident status is explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_resident_(European_Union)
Notice that the purpose of this form of residency is to provide the holder with many of the same benefits as a citizen of an EU country. So, for example, I can go to Sweden, go to the local prefecture with my EU Long Term Resident card and proof of sufficient funds and an address, and then proceed to live and work in Sweden


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

I actually do understand what permit you have, but I don't think you understood the point I'm trying to make. 

The administrative procedure for changing countries for TCN is not regulated in the same way as EU citizens (regardless of what the EU tries to claim). You claim that Sweden will let you work immediately after you register(do you have an official Swedish source confirming?). 

For example, I can tell you for a fact that with the permit you have that you will not automatically receive the right to work in Germany in the first year. This is explicitly laid out in §38a AufenthG. 

I'm not trying to be pedantic or difficult, however, there seems to be very misleading information given regarding this permit and not all Member States have the same administrative procedures. Assuming you have sufficient funds, have health insurance, and don't pose any type of security risk, the Italians have to issue the permit. The issue is only the most efficient way to apply for it. 

If you find an official Italian source can you please post here?


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

NickZ said:


> The question is does the OP have that status.


No, I think he made it very clear that he has that status.

The 3rd quote in post #11, however, is only a *proposed* ammendment.


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

Excellent points, Sunshine, and my sincere thanks to all of you who have commented. Supporting Sunshine's points, I know from experience that Spain doesn't honor the intent of the EU Long Term Resident status at all. I'm just trying to find the exact requirements for three countries: Italy, France and Cyprus. We have talked to Swedish Immigration and the process is as I have described, for Sweden. I have this little snippet below from Anglo Info which suggests France is the same. I am trying to confirm this. Thanks again to all of you for taking the time to write.
Here is the snippet from Anglo Info re France (_Résidents de longue durée - CE is the French term for EU Long Term residents*)*_ :
_*Résidents de longue durée - CE*: _The rules are slightly different for non-EU nationals who have been long-term residents of another EU country (_Résidents de longue durée - CE_). A third-country national who has resided legally in an EU country for a minimum of five years, need not apply for a _visa long séjour _and may make their residency application at the _Préfecture _within _three_ months of their arrival in France.


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

seacory said:


> I'm just trying to find the exact requirements for three countries: Italy, France and Cyprus.


I've tried looking into the requirements for individual Member States and in my experience it is extremely difficult to find official information. I'm starting to wonder whether it is intentional.

I only know about the requirements for Germany because I'm familiar with German immigration law. On the other hand, I don't think many TCN actually use it in Germany. TCN with good jobs are better off with Blue Cards and low skilled workers generally don't meet the income requirements and often don't qualify for a work permit. The only group of TCN with this status who really benefit are those who are retired and have sufficient funds (Germany does not have a retirement permit).



seacory said:


> I know from experience that Spain doesn't honor the intent of the EU Long Term Resident status at all.


Are you sure about that? There was a TCN who claimed he were able to obtain a work visa without issue, however, I'm not sure if he properly understood how the system works.

I'm glad that I've finally found someone who understands that the Member States are allowed some leeway in deciding requirements for TCN with this permit and is looking for the requirements. Please update this post if you find any useful information.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

According to the EU site Europa.eu permanent residence status :


> If you fulfil this requirement, you can apply for a *permanent residence document*, which confirms your *right to live *in the country where you now live *permanently, without any conditions*.


There is nothing mentioned about being able to move on a long-stay basis to any other EU country, and as far as I know, there are not many countries that drop the requirement for a visa for TCNs with permanent residence in another EU country. There may be some consideration for those who have been on a European Blue Card for 5 years or more, but I know that for France you would need to re-apply for a long-stay visa if you want to move there.

For more information: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

seacory said:


> Thank you for writing. I believe that we are not talking about the same form of long term residency. For example, I was a permanent resident in Portugal before becoming an EU Long Term Resident in Portugal. It is very easy to confuse these two. The EU Long Term Resident status is explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_resident_(European_Union)
> Notice that the purpose of this form of residency is to provide the holder with many of the same benefits as a citizen of an EU country. So, for example, I can go to Sweden, go to the local prefecture with my EU Long Term Resident card and proof of sufficient funds and an address, and then proceed to live and work in Sweden


This is interesting.

How did you achieve the 'EU Long Term Resident' status? What was the process?


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

Here is a link that should help in understanding the requirements for EU Long Term Resident.








Already in the EU?


On these pages you can find general information on what rules apply if you are a non-EU citizen already in an EU country.




immigration-portal.ec.europa.eu




Still hoping for information about France and Italy.
It is important to understand that permanent residence in an EU country is not the same as being an EU long term resident.
I was a permanent resident in Portugal until last year. This status (permanent resident) did not confer any advantages if I should move to another EU country.
Basically I would need to start over in the new EU country.
However the EU long term resident status, which I now have, is a different matter, and is meant to confer advantages approaching those of a citizen of an EU country, when moving to another EU country.
What this means, apparently, is that a third country national (TCN), or a citizen of a country not in the EU has several options when moving to an EU country:
1)become a temporary resident and then a permanent resident. I have done this.
2)apply for citizenship after 5 years. I decided not to do this in Portugal because I have lived in many places and the process and documents takes and awfully long time.
3)apply for the EU Long Term resident status after 5 years. This is what my wife and I have done. Most, but not all, EU countries participate in the EU Long Term Resident program.
Yes it is certainly difficult to obtain information for the various EU countries about living and working in them with this status.
Thanks to all of you for writing.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

*Sunshine* said:


> No, I think he made it very clear that he has that status.
> 
> The 3rd quote in post #11, however, is only a *proposed* ammendment.



Go read the 2003 law.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

As far as I can tell from the reference you have cited, this is still in a proposal status and is certainly not binding on EU member countries. At the moment, there is no mention of this in France, and if you check the usual visa information sources (such as: Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr ) there is no option for indicating that you are a "long-term resident" of the EU. I really wouldn't hold my breath on this - especially in the case of France.


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## seacory (2 mo ago)

Thank you Nick. I believe that the EU Long term Resident status has had two updates since the original in 2003. I believe one update is from 2017 and also there has been one this year. The information is certainly very hard to find.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Dettaglio news


Pagina di dettaglio delle news



integrazionemigranti.gov.it




.



> soggiornare, anche per motivi di studio e lavoro, in un altro Stato Schengen, anche per un periodo superiore ai 90 giorni, nel rispetto comunque della norma in vigore nell'altro Paese membro. È necessario, quindi, contattare la rappresentanza diplomatico-consolare dello Stato in cui ci si intende recare per verificare le condizioni richieste;


Is that what you all want?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

If you go to the Italian page on visa info it's all about entry from outside the Schengen zone. Not for people all ready in it.


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

xabiaxica said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> How did you achieve the 'EU Long Term Resident' status? What was the process?


We've discussed this in another thread previously. Unfortunately, certain clueless posters keep comparing apples to oranges, which ends up totally derailing the discussion.


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## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Bevdeforges said:


> As far as I can tell from the reference you have cited, this is still in a proposal status and is certainly not binding on EU member countries. At the moment, there is no mention of this in France, and if you check the usual visa information sources (such as: Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr ) there is no option for indicating that you are a "long-term resident" of the EU. I really wouldn't hold my breath on this - especially in the case of France.


The *amendments* are still being *proposed, *however*,* the Directive is already law and France *did not opt out *(only the UK, Ireland, and Denmark opted out).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

seacory said:


> Here is a link that should help in understanding the requirements for EU Long Term Resident.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing in that link says that a TCN, even with 'PR' in another EU country, has the same automatic right to move to another EU country as an EU citizen.

I know for sure that to move to Spain, even with long term / permanent residency in another EU country, a visa must be applied for.

Where did you apply for 'EU Long Term Residency'?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Go to the bottom of my last link. It's in Italian but it's there



> *Il titolare di un permesso di soggiorno UE per soggiornanti di lungo periodo rilasciato da altro Stato UE può, con tale permesso, soggiornare in Italia?*
> 
> Sì, il titolare di tale permesso può fare ingresso in Italia senza necessità di visto e soggiornarvi per un periodo superiore a tre mesi, al fine di:
> • svolgere un’attività di lavoro autonomo o subordinato nel rispetto delle altre condizioni previste dalla legislazione nazionale;
> ...


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