# on the news in the UK



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

BBC News - Euro crisis: UK plans for rise in immigrants The BBC news this morning is full of talk of trying to "discourage" Spanish and Greek job seekers coming to the UK??? Hhhhmmm, not sure what the repercussions would be???

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> BBC News - Euro crisis: UK plans for rise in immigrants The BBC news this morning is full of talk of trying to "discourage" Spanish and Greek job seekers coming to the UK??? Hhhhmmm, not sure what the repercussions would be???
> 
> Jo xxx


isn't Spain discouraging jobseekers from EU countries to come here now though, in a way, what with the 'proof of income' requirements?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> isn't Spain discouraging jobseekers from EU countries to come here now though, in a way, what with the 'proof of income' requirements?


It could turn nasty. The Uk people doesnt need an excuse to "pick" on immigrants and retaliation for the way Spain is treating immigrants isnt going to help. I worry about the eurozone and Europe in general!!

Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jojo said:


> BBC News - Euro crisis: UK plans for rise in immigrants The BBC news this morning is full of talk of trying to "discourage" Spanish and Greek job seekers coming to the UK??? Hhhhmmm, not sure what the repercussions would be???
> 
> Jo xxx


Jojo on the greeks or the UK? But now it looks like it is how and when Greece goes (Ms Legarde making her thoughts clear) I hope at least plans can be debated, tested, and put sensibly in place. 

What will be interesting is the plan for the Euro. Perhaps dump Spain and Portugal (I feel sorry for the latter but they will surely have to follow Spain?) and then stabilise. Or go with the 16.

I see Ireland from the latest opinion poll look although they will vote 'Yes' on Thursday. And I can't see Italy getting the boot. I mean Germany doesn't want Europe flooded with cheap Ferraris 

And despite Bankia the markets seem to have accounted for Spain's demise. God knows were Bankia's 19 billion is coming from :confused2:


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> isn't Spain discouraging jobseekers from EU countries to come here now though, in a way, what with the 'proof of income' requirements?


In what way is the Spanish government achieving this?? That would be against EU Law wouldn't it? and the free movement of EU citizens. I accept it would be a good idea but surely illegal??


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

thrax said:


> In what way is the Spanish government achieving this?? That would be against EU Law wouldn't it? and the free movement of EU citizens. I accept it would be a good idea but surely illegal??


Thrax there is wriggle room:

"BBC political correspondent Robin Brant said the government had some room for manoeuvre because there are rules in place for extreme situations which allow for some temporary restrictions on immigration."


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Thrax there is wriggle room:
> 
> "BBC political correspondent Robin Brant said the government had some room for manoeuvre because there are rules in place for extreme situations which allow for some temporary restrictions on immigration."


So if Robin Brant is correct, there's the loophole. However, even if it was illegal, would it really stop the governments doing what they want? I tend to think it all comes down to an investigation that would happen in a few years time, followed by a fine, that either wouldn't be paid or would be paid in even more years down the line, all of which wouldn't matter at all to the present governments.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So if Robin Brant is correct, there's the loophole. However, even if it was illegal, would it really stop the governments doing what they want? I tend to think it all comes down to an investigation that would happen in a few years time, followed by a fine, that either wouldn't be paid or would be paid in even more years down the line, all of which wouldn't matter at all to the present governments.


But legal or otherwise does it not make sense? Do we want people spending their last beans running round Europe thinking the grass is always greener? If a Greek has a job in London then good luck to them but turning up on spec is not going to necessarily turn out well. And I believe Ms May is planning for the latter type of immigrant. Well I hope so


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> In what way is the Spanish government achieving this?? That would be against EU Law wouldn't it? and the free movement of EU citizens. I accept it would be a good idea but surely illegal??


no it's not illegal

when us EU citizens used to have to 'apply for a residencia card' the same conditions were in force

then when that chenged to 'register as resident' the requirement was lifted - but the facility for re-instating it was left in place


so all they have done is re-instate it under EU rules

I think France & Italy have the requirement - some EU countries do & always have I believe, anyway :confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> But legal or otherwise does it not make sense? Do we want people spending their last beans running round Europe thinking the grass is always greener? If a Greek has a job in London then good luck to them but turning up on spec is not going to necessarily turn out well. And I believe Ms May is planning for the latter type of immigrant. Well I hope so


Ahh, dear Nigel, that is a different matter which I'm not getting into before another cup of tea, taking the dog for a walk and getting dressed - not in that order!!!
Please excuse my ignorance, but who is Ms May?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thrax said:


> In what way is the Spanish government achieving this?? That would be against EU Law wouldn't it? and the free movement of EU citizens. I accept it would be a good idea but surely illegal??


No. I've posted before that the rules under the Single European Act allow for 'special circumstances' restrictions.
All other EU states except ROI and the UK imposed these restrictions in 2004 when the post-socialist bloc states joined the EU. 
The UK has sensibly imposed restrictions on entrants from Bulgaria and Romania.
It would be utter folly and social dynamite for the UK not to close the borders.
As I've said before, this debate isn't about race it's about numbers. The UK is already one of the world's most densely populated nations. We have a pressing shortage of housing and other infrastructure because of the million plus job-seekers and their dependents who have arrived in the past ten years.
Money is flowing out of Greece and Spain....next it will be people.


And three cheers for Christine LaGarde. About time someone told it like it is.
Many Greek and Spanish people enjoyed the feast. Now the bill has arrived.
The sad thing, the real tragedy, is that those that never got to the table will suffer too.

Maybe 'ordinary' people will now realise that their support for a lifestyle based on cheap credit so they could buy the things the truly rich could pay on demand was good while it lasted but was propped up by smoke and mirrors.

George Bush Senior once described free-market theories as 'voodoo economics'.
Now the black magic has gone, we're left with the curse.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No. I've posted before that the rules under the Single European Act allow for 'special circumstances' restrictions.
> All other EU states except ROI and the UK imposed these restrictions in 2004 when the post-socialist bloc states joined the EU.
> The UK has sensibly imposed restrictions on entrants from Bulgaria and Romania.
> It would be utter folly and social dynamite for the UK not to close the borders.
> ...


Mary I agreed with all of that!! Of course only very few benefited and noticeably they will suffer least. And the crooks will make even more money now. But I'm off before we fall out. 

As for pains I'm sure you will remember the well known alternative remedy - Spanish wine and olives interspersed with G&Ts


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

An interpretation of the EU from Doggyworld:

The Germans make the rules.

The French say they will follow the rules ….. then do whatever they please.

The Spanish say they will follow the rules when they can find the paperwork with the rules on.

The Italians don’t know what the rules are because they’re way too busy having a good time to bother about stuff like that.

The Greeks (and all the others) would love to follow the rules but haven’t a hope in hell of getting anywhere near.

The Brits, although sitting firmly on the outer fence of the EU, follow the rules implicitly because that’s only proper and it wouldn’t do to let Johnny Foreigner see them cutting any corners.



This EU politics lark? …….. piece’o’piddle!













Doggy


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> As I've said before, this debate isn't about race it's about numbers.


In theory you are absolutely correct.
In the way this debate is being interpreted by many UK citizens, I think you are wrong.

And we could turn the debate on its head and agree that Spain has the right under EU law to restrict EU citizens arriving and looking for work and free state healthcare. And that this is also about numbers.

But the reality is that there is more anti-immigrant graffiti here than there was this time last year, that the Spanish press often gets it wrong by saying that the British are getting free health care at Spain's expense, and that immigrants to Spain are not as welcome as they were before the Crisis (and even then, in some quarters they were tolerated rather than accepted).

Yes, this is all about numbers, but the numbers game can very quickly get mixed up with racism. It's a fine line which, in times of crisis, many are prepared to cross.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And three cheers for Christine LaGarde. About time someone told it like it is.
> Many Greek and Spanish people enjoyed the feast. Now the bill has arrived.
> The sad thing, the real tragedy, is that those that never got to the table will suffer too.
> 
> ...


Well well well, Mary. As usual you are contradicting yourself. 

Reading LaGarde's comment made me rewind back in time and remembered our little discussion, a few months back, here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...g-spain/81823-one-practical-step-forward.html where *gasp* I dared to blame our crisis on the virtudes, or lack thereof, of selfrestraint, frugality and saving. 

Furthermore, I said, and I quote myself: 



> They wouldn't be greedy lenders without irresponsible borrowers.
> 
> What happened during the last seven years or so was that your average village idiot , which let me asure you there are many out here, on a bogus temporary work contract could suddendly buy his dream mansion together with loans for a sports car and the senora's boob job. He is not the real victim, you are, together with your prudent hard working neighbours and the hopeless young that have to endure now the public cuts, lower standards of health care and education, less help, the prospect of a future without a real job..
> More regulation is of course needed as well as making mortgages far less available , but I have little sympathy for those who borrowed with no control knowing that they couldn possibly pay back. They wanted their piece of an imaginary cake and got what they bargained for.


TO which you reply, and I quote you now:



> According to your view, the greater percentage of the population of Spain, Greece etc. are mindless morons who deserve their fate.
> 
> Whilst one might think that to be true, given the recent vote for the PP, a party which allies itself to many of those failed free market policies, I see it as a view which shows contempt for people who through no fault of their own have seen their lives plunged into uncertainty by idiot politicians.
> 
> Blaming powerless people for the consequences of their failed policies....that's the problem with these right-wingers


So why are you cheering Lagarde for saying something that you seemed to absoultely disagreed with.

The bill has indeed arrived. It will be the hopeless younger generation who foots it, because, lets face it, a large percentage of of our population were mindless morons .


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ahh, dear Nigel, that is a different matter which I'm not getting into before another cup of tea, taking the dog for a walk and getting dressed - not in that order!!!
> Please excuse my ignorance, but who is Ms May?


The Home Secretary


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> The Home Secretary


Thanks!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I have a plan.

Spain has too many empty houses and not enough people. The UK has a housing shortage and too many people.

In return for bailing out Bankia, the Spanish government takes ownership of its vast property portfolio. Anyone currently unemployed and getting housing benefit or a pension in the UK can come and live in these properties for as long as they like, and Britain pays Spain half of what it would have spent housing these people in the UK. All these people can spend their benefits and pensions in Spain, helping our economy. The Brits can stop moaning about over-population and everyone will be happy, no???


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> Well well well, Mary. As usual you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> Reading LaGarde's comment made me rewind back in time and remembered our little discussion, a few months back, here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...g-spain/81823-one-practical-step-forward.html where *gasp* I dared to blame our crisis on the virtudes, or lack thereof, of selfrestraint, frugality and saving.
> 
> ...


Because she was talking about Greece. I have said many times that Greeks must take some responsibility for the state of their economy. I have never disagreed with her sviews as expressed in today's interview. Look again at previous posts.
And because I have also pointed out that cheap credit and huge wage increases not accompanied by increased productivity have also contributed to Spain's problems. Spanish wages rose many times higher than German wages but productivity fell far behind. 
And I have said many times that no-one put a gun to people's heads to force them to take out mortgages. I have also said that the 'innocent' will suffer with the 'guilty'.

Where's your problem?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I have a plan.
> 
> Spain has too many empty houses and not enough people. The UK has a housing shortage and too many people.
> 
> In return for bailing out Bankia, the Spanish government takes ownership of its vast property portfolio. Anyone currently unemployed and getting housing benefit or a pension in the UK can come and live in these properties for as long as they like, and Britain pays Spain half of what it would have spent housing these people in the UK. All these people can spend their benefits and pensions in Spain, helping our economy. The Brits can stop moaning about over-population and everyone will be happy, no???



And I'll be on Page Three of The Sun next week, pigs will fly and we'll all have bacon butties for breakfast.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> In theory you are absolutely correct.
> In the way this debate is being interpreted by many UK citizens, I think you are wrong.
> 
> And we could turn the debate on its head and agree that Spain has the right under EU law to restrict EU citizens arriving and looking for work and free state healthcare. And that this is also about numbers.
> ...


I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that most of the people who object to more EU or other immigration are racist?

I know some on the left see racism in every nook and cranny -a good example was Gordon Brown's appalling treatment of Mrs. Duffy.

What will exacerbate xenophobia is precisely to allow unrestricted immigration. Why do you think there is more anti-immigrant graffiti here than a year ago? Are you surprised that immigrants to Spain are no longer welcomed as they once were?

One sure thing that will exarcerbate xenophobia in the UK and elsewhere is comfortable, well-paid middle class people telling other less fortunate people that it's OK to allow unrestricted immigration at a time of high unemployment, job insecurity and cuts in public spending. Pressures on the health service and eduication are mounting and their budgets are being cut.

Are you saying that there should be no cap on any immigration from anywhere in the UK or Spain? That there should be zero restrictions on immigration from any EU statem, any state in the world for that matter? That the number of people living in the UK is infinite?

If your answer is that you do think that, few will agree.

If you think that yes, there should be restrictions...then we're talking numbers.

As I said...


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## Guest (May 26, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> ...And I'll be on Page Three of The Sun next week...


Again?


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## Guest (May 26, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I have a plan.
> 
> Spain has too many empty houses and not enough people. The UK has a housing shortage and too many people.
> 
> In return for bailing out Bankia, the Spanish government takes ownership of its vast property portfolio. Anyone currently unemployed and getting housing benefit or a pension in the UK can come and live in these properties for as long as they like, and Britain pays Spain half of what it would have spent housing these people in the UK. All these people can spend their benefits and pensions in Spain, helping our economy. The Brits can stop moaning about over-population and everyone will be happy, no???


If that plan comes to fruition, them I`m off to Nepal, sharpish. Or is that Sherpish?:confused2:


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

There are too many people in the UK now, more are coming, we are short of jobs and houses so logic would say stop immigration, the tabloids and 'right on tree huggers' would scream racism if we did.

Its not racism to stop immigration, its common sense if we want sustainability in the UK, if we want to be able to fund pensions and free medical care etc. Its not racism to say enough is enough, time to pull up the drawbridge and look after those here now. We simply cannot afford to fund economic migrants, simple as that and I'd say that is just honesty.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Because she was talking about Greece. I have said many times that Greeks must take some responsibility for the state of their economy. I have never disagreed with her sviews as expressed in today's interview. Look again at previous posts.
> 
> Where's your problem?


She was in fact talking about greece and other european nations. In your previous post you said Greece and Spain.

What do you mean by where is my problem? i just happen to notice that behind your elaborated prose there seems to be contradictions and wrong assumptions. Ie. the wages in Spain hardly rose, in fact it stayed as one of the lowest in Europe. Just an observation, really.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> She was in fact talking about greece and other european nations. In your previous post you said Greece and Spain.
> 
> What do you mean by where is my problem? i just happen to notice that behind your elaborated prose there seems to be contradictions and wrong assumptions. Ie. the wages in Spain hardly rose, in fact it stayed as one of the lowest in Europe. Just an observation, really.


I've reread your post and my reply and you deserve a better answer than the one I gave. My only explanation -not excuse - is that due to my own stupidity I'm in excruciating pain and last night posted on a mixture of pain-killers, alcohol and a well-known 'herbal remedy'.


Firstly, wages in Spain did rise sharply, faster than Germany, over a period from the beginning of the 21st century, and productivity fell. Those are facts which you can check. That doesn't invalidate your point that Spanish wages may be low compared to say the UK or Germany but compared to say Greece, Portugal or Bulgaria Spanish wages are much higher.

My overall view is roughly this: the chief villains of the piece are Western Governments of both left and right who have enthusiastically followed the free-market hatcherite agenda. The EU in its current form with free movement of goods, capital and labour has been a disaster for ordinary working people, a gold-plated gift to the financial markets.
Many people, seduced by cheap and easy credit, over-indulged. But they were able to do this because capital could flow easily from German bank to Greek or Spanish bank to eager borrower.
I think that the time is slowly coming when a radical approach to how we manage our common economies will be forced on the EU member states. More regulation, more protectionism, more barriers to economic and other migrants.
I do believe that we must take responsibility for what shape this new approach will take. It shouldn't be left to politicians who are just people like you and me who get elected. They are not omniscient.
People who have worked hard, been prudent and not over-borrowed will suffer more than some of those who took advantage of the cheap credit. In the UK, low interest rates reward those who took on borrowing they couldn't really afford. Like many other retired people I've seen the value of my savings and income drop by one-third since 2007.
The frightening thing is that no-one seems to know what to do to get us out of this mess. No leadership, just make-do-and-mend solutions.
I don't toe any party line anymore, I'm interested in what is fair and works. I'm changing my views on a few issues simply because the facts are changing. No longer do I see the eurozone or even the EU as a good thing....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I have a plan.
> 
> Spain has too many empty houses and not enough people. The UK has a housing shortage and too many people.
> 
> In return for bailing out Bankia, the Spanish government takes ownership of its vast property portfolio. Anyone currently unemployed and getting housing benefit or a pension in the UK can come and live in these properties for as long as they like, and Britain pays Spain half of what it would have spent housing these people in the UK. All these people can spend their benefits and pensions in Spain, helping our economy. The Brits can stop moaning about over-population and everyone will be happy, no???


Here's my plan:

a new, people-orientated EU should pass a Directive compelling total nationalisation of all banks operating within the EU, including foreign subsidiaries. These could be run at 'arms length' but must be under Government control. Their investment arms should be separated from the retail side and should be strictly regulated with high levels of capitalisation. The profits from the investment arm could be used to fairly but not excessively compensate shareholders - they could also be issued with non-convertible shares in the investment banks.
The function of the banks would be to ensure a steady flow of liquidity to enable business to grow and to have a pool of investment capital to pump-prime the economies by investing in modernising infrastructure, green technology, aid to developing coountries via infrastructure projects.

It seems logical to me that all the services vital for the efficient functioning of a fair, social-market economy should be under Government control although not necessarily delivery.
I would include in these vital functions all utilities, telecommunications, health, education, most social services, transport including aviation...and retail banking.
Of these, banking is the corner-stone and is too important to be left to a private, unregulated market.

Of course this will never happen...or will it?


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that most of the people who object to more EU or other immigration are racist?


Sometimes Mary, I think you deliberately misread me.
But this time I'll put it down to yesterday's painkillers.  



mrypg9 said:


> I know some on the left see racism in every nook and cranny -a good example was Gordon Brown's appalling treatment of Mrs. Duffy.


Every time I disagree with you, you intimate it is because of my left wing political beliefs. Not so. And knowing how good you are at political analysis, I think that, without painkillers, you would see that my argument agreed with you about this being a numbers game, but argued that debates about numbers can easily be taken up by racists with their own agenda.

And, as for Gordon and Mrs Duffy...
Gordon Brown was caught out because he left his mike switched on. You cannot tell me that no other politician, on whatever side, has not made similar private statements. The problem, on this occasion, is that Gordon's staff were not doing their job properly... or perhaps they were....
Mrs Duffy quite rightly felt upset by the remark, as anyone would, but the media 'outrage' over this incident was way out of proportion to what actually took place.
Gordon Brown was simply not at ease in these type of situations, hence, I suspect, his remark.
What he said could be considered unprofessional, but why he said it was lost within the media delight at his mistake.
I never particularly liked Gordon Brown, but I did feel for him at that time.



mrypg9 said:


> What will exacerbate xenophobia is precisely to allow unrestricted immigration.


We agree, _partly_, here.
My argument is on _the way the debate on immigration will be used to promote xenophobia_.
A subtle difference, but a difference nevertheless.



mrypg9 said:


> Why do you think there is more anti-immigrant graffiti here than a year ago? Are you surprised that immigrants to Spain are no longer welcomed as they once were?


Of course I'm not.
And my argument fits in with this.



mrypg9 said:


> One sure thing that will exarcerbate xenophobia in the UK and elsewhere is comfortable, *well-paid middle class people* telling other less fortunate people that it's OK to allow unrestricted immigration at a time of high unemployment, job insecurity and cuts in public spending. Pressures on the health service and eduication are mounting and their budgets are being cut.


Your class politics are showing there Mary. 
And, slightly off topic here... I hope you are not referring to me as being from the well-paid middle class (or belonging to it now). I truly wish that were so, but sadly it's not. 



mrypg9 said:


> Are you saying that there should be no cap on any immigration from anywhere in the UK or Spain? That there should be zero restrictions on immigration from any EU statem, any state in the world for that matter? That the number of people living in the UK is infinite?
> 
> If your answer is that you do think that, few will agree.
> 
> ...


I never said that we weren't talking numbers.
I'll say it one more time....


> In theory you are absolutely correct.
> In the way this debate is being interpreted by many UK citizens, I think you are wrong.


Perhaps interpreted by UK citizens was the wrong word and _presented to_ would have been more appropriate.
But in any case---
If the numbers game were handled correctly and without prejudice, there would be no need to bring racism into the equation. 
But sadly, whether we like it or not, this is fodder for racist propaganda, and many of those who feel abandoned by their Governments may well be encouraged to lean towards this stance.

Incidentally, I love Alcalaina's plan.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Sometimes Mary, I think you deliberately misread me.
> But this time I'll put it down to yesterday's painkillers.
> 
> 
> ...


But are we to be deflected from doing something which if left undone may foster or increase real racism for fear of phantom racism? That is a recipe for paralysis. In what way do you think the 'numbers game' has been handled incorrectly?

Gordon Brown's gaffe was unforgiveable in any politician claiming to represent 'the people'. Mrs. Duffy was talking about a situation only too familiar to many people in the UK.....people -British people -of all ethnicities. Fear of losing your job because of people who will work for less than you, fear that your children won't be able to get a decent education because of the overcrowded schools and schools where teachers are struggling to educate chidren of immigrants who speak no English. (Ironically, when these children do get a grip on the language they often outstrip British-born and bred pupils).
There is also an important factor rarely mentioned: the fact that a very large number of British people are resentful that they have never been consulted on the changes that have happened to their cities, towns and villages. Have they no right to a say? It seems to me, looking back over my own experience in the Labour Party and from reading about Labour Governments, that there is a strong streak of 'We know best what's good for you' about British middle-class socialists.

Resentment of immigration is on the rise all over Europe. It goes hand in hand with the rise of the far right. Few of these people are racists. They are fearful. %


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But are we to be deflected from doing something which if left undone may foster or increase real racism for fear of phantom racism? That is a recipe for paralysis. In what way do you think the 'numbers game' has been handled incorrectly?


Of course Governments should not be deflected in looking at a number of measures to deal with immigration. I simply think that leaks to the right wing press (a couple recently from the Home Secretaries office to give an example) are not the way to handle this debate.
This debate involves not only the man in the street (but he will be the one appealed to the most, while also feeling ignored), it also involves Industry, local authorities, and many parts of the public sector to name a few.
It could well be that some businesses do not want to inhibit immigration and that their continuance relies upon it to a certain extent. It may also be that, were local authorities more capable of liaison nation wide, that the housing situation may not be quite as dire. 
Two examples. I do not know the answers, but I do know that, until this debate is opened up and discussed on a rational level, none of us will know the full answers either.



mrypg9 said:


> Gordon Brown's gaffe was unforgiveable in any politician claiming to represent 'the people'. Mrs. Duffy was talking about a situation only too familiar to many people in the UK.....people -British people -of all ethnicities. Fear of losing your job because of people who will work for less than you, fear that your children won't be able to get a decent education because of the overcrowded schools and schools where teachers are struggling to educate chidren of immigrants who speak no English. (Ironically, when these children do get a grip on the language they often outstrip British-born and bred pupils).


Ive said my piece on Gordon and really don't feel like discussing him further.
But may address the rest of that after I've taken the dogs for a walk. 



mrypg9 said:


> Resentment of immigration is on the rise all over Europe. It goes hand in hand with the rise of the far right. Few of these people are racists. They are fearful. %


I agree. Ordinary people are not usually racist. But the far right is.
This is why we need to look for another, more open, way.
But off to walk dogs right now!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Of course Governments should not be deflected in looking at a number of measures to deal with immigration. I simply think that leaks to the right wing press (a couple recently from the Home Secretaries office to give an example) are not the way to handle this debate.
> This debate involves not only the man in the street (but he will be the one appealed to the most, while also feeling ignored), it also involves Industry, local authorities, and many parts of the public sector to name a few.
> It could well be that some businesses do not want to inhibit immigration and that their continuance relies upon it to a certain extent. It may also be that, were local authorities more capable of liaison nation wide, that the housing situation may not be quite as dire.
> Two examples. I do not know the answers, but I do know that, until this debate is opened up and discussed on a rational level, none of us will know the full answers either.
> ...



What would your other, more open way look like, I wonder..... People are losing interest in politics because they feel that they are being ignored. Immigration has on the whole benefited the business community and harmed people of all ethnicities living in areas with scarcity of jobs and housing and inadequate services. 

The fact that only the UK and ROI allowed unrestricted immigration in 2004 surely doesn't mean that the other EU states which capped it were racist, does it....
Unrestricted immigration since 2004 has had a huge impact not only on urban but on rural communities. People who were not consulted about the changes to their communities feel resentful and lose whatever trust they had in politicians.

There is no other 'open' way: we either restrict numbers or we don't. We have already done this with migrants from Romania and Bulgaria. With its almost six million unemployed, does it make sense for Spain to have an 'open door' policy?

We as individuals put the needs of our families and friends before those of strangers. That's normal and natural. Cultural ties are stronger than abstract notions. I think it's interesting and instructive that when the Soviet Union fell apart, nations which had been oppressed under socialist rule almost instantly reconstituted themselves: Ukrainians, Tajhiks, Balts, Poles, Latvians, Czechs, Slovaks.....all wanted to be nation-states again. This wasn't just a political manouevre as their incorporation into the Socialist Bloc was. It was spontaneous and popular. This tells us a great deal that is of importance when considering a political path. 

Every political view should surely be based on philosophical anthropology, a view of human nature. Lenin had a view: socialists were to be 'engineers of souls'. Socialist man could be created by the right policies and environment. 
Nazis and to a lesser degree fascists shared that view, a view we now reject as abhorrent and unnatural.
It seems to me that there are certain dispositions shared by the majority of humans, attachment to family and 'tribe' being one of them. (Destructiveness and violence being, sadly, another). Repressing these is dangerous.

I'm rereading an interesting book by Ernst Fischer, the Austrian Marxist, 'The Necessity of Art'. In his first chapter he deals at length with the beginnings of language and points out that among its first functions was to differentiate.....


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> What would your other, more open way look like, I wonder..... People are losing interest in politics because they feel that they are being ignored. Immigration has on the whole benefited the business community and harmed people of all ethnicities living in areas with scarcity of jobs and housing and inadequate services.
> 
> The fact that only the UK and ROI allowed unrestricted immigration in 2004 surely doesn't mean that the other EU states which capped it were racist, does it....
> Unrestricted immigration since 2004 has had a huge impact not only on urban but on rural communities. People who were not consulted about the changes to their communities feel resentful and lose whatever trust they had in politicians.
> ...


You are not really listening to me are you Mary?

I am not accusing Governments of being racist when they close their doors to immigration.
I am saying that the whole immigration debate is, as in the past also, taking place in a way which encourages racism and ethnocentrism. And it doesn't have to be that way.
You rightly say that people are losing interest in politics because they feel they are being ignored.
I agree.
And this fosters misconceptions.

So what is so difficult to understand about a more open debate on the subject?
Did I say that an open _debate _meant an open door policy?
No I didn't.

But on that subject, cutting down on immigration numbers should also mean taking a harder look at what those numbers represent.

Sure, in this present economic climate, I can understand the concern that some people are going to the UK, signing on, and taking up housing stock.
Although I do think this is magnified out of all proportion to what actually does occur in these particular circumstances.

However, if the UK government is going to base its restrictions purely according to economic means, does this mean that those with plenty of money would be welcomed with open arms, even though their money may be offshore and their earnings untaxable?
I guess they wont be considered a drain on resources, but they will contribute little to the British economy.

It is also interesting when people talk about losing job opportunities to Poles, when the jobs these people take have been rejected by many UK citizens, or those UK citizens who applied were not up to the task.
Then there is the NHS, with hospitals filled with nurses from the Philippines, paid at a lower rate than UK nurses, but equally as skilled, if not more so.

So, does the UK settle for an inferior workforce, or even a more expensive one, rather than allowing people in who are ready and very able to do the work required and at a price these employers can afford? 

It is because of examples like these that there is an urgent need for an open and truthful debate on immigration numbers, rather than posturing from politicians who have their own particular agendas.



mrypg9 said:


> We as individuals put the needs of our families and friends before those of strangers. That's normal and natural. Cultural ties are stronger than abstract notions. .......
> .......
> 
> It seems to me that there are certain dispositions shared by the majority of humans, attachment to family and 'tribe' being one of them. (Destructiveness and violence being, sadly, another). Repressing these is dangerous.
> ...


Yes, I've read a great deal about differentiation and the way it appears to be human nature to define ourselves in term of 'others'.

And the reason I have read all of these is because, throughout my life I have been defined as 'other', as have my family.
As mixed race and mixed culture, we do not belong to _any_ particular group or 'tribe' - just our own, fairly tight family structure.
I could give you many examples of why I and other members of my family look out for racism rearing its ugly head in many situations. And it's nothing to do with being left wing and middle class - far from it in some cases. 

So, I will never give in without argument on any mention of immigration numbers and how this cannot be racist.
In an ideal world it shouldn't be, but in my experience it often turns out that way.

Hope your ribs are feeling better by the way.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> You are not really listening to me are you Mary?
> 
> I am not accusing Governments of being racist when they close their doors to immigration.
> I am saying that the whole immigration debate is, as in the past also, taking place in a way which encourages racism and ethnocentrism. And it doesn't have to be that way.
> ...



No, I can scarcely move!! But thanks for your good wishes, much appreciated.

Yes, I'm listening to you...but I think that you haven't grasped my basic point which is simply that there are too many people on a small island! 
As for housing....yes, the UK situation is dire. Did you know that fewer social housing starts were made under the Blair Government than under Thatcher....Getting people into decent affordable housing was one of my main interests whilst in politics. Because Thatcher cut funds for new build social housing we took our council housing stock via a Management Buy-Out into a Housing Association. We put 100% of the money received into immediately buying up properties to cut our waiting list.
I fear that having a debate will only serve to allow the real minority of racists to grab the headlines. Any politician worth his/her salt who gets out of Westminster or the Town Hall and talks to people will know that the majority want to see immigration severely curbed. These aren't racists, they are British people of all ethnicities.

I'm beginning to think that the whole concept of the EU as it stands is a licence for the super-wealthy to make even more money. Yes, some immigrants will work for lower wages and take jobs Brits won't do. But most immigrants from Eastern Europe are skilled,entrepreneurial and lower wages in trades such as plumbing, construction etc. 

There is another side to this, though. Maybe we do need a frank debate ...at a later stage. The population of most Western nations is declining and ageing. We desperately need young, skilled people to work and provide the tax income to pay our pensions, along with other social services. But this immigration must be carefully managed and must be by consent.

I would say that 99% of the British population are not racist. Fearful, conservative, ignorant even..but not racist. I think racism is a psychological illness, as is true homophobia. As an openly but not in-yer-face gay woman I can perhaps say I have shared some of your experiences and feelings. Racists are nearly always homophobes.

Incidentally, don't you think that UEFA were crazy in deciding to hold the Cup matches in Poland and Ukraine, two of the most racist states in Europe? I have personal experience of racism, anti-Semitism and homophobia in Poland and I fear for the safety of British or any black and Asian fans who will attend the matches.

In have viewed at first hand the virulent homophobia in Poland. I don't scare easily but I turned down a request to be a steward at a Pride March in Warsaw. Giving advice was as far as I was willing to go. It's interesting that fifty years almost of socialist 'internationalist' propaganda couldn't educate these people out of a racism and anti-Semitism that sadly is part of the nationalcultures of many Eastern European states. 

Now back to bed...I was due to take some dogs to the airport today on their way to new homes in Holland.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I can scarcely move!! But thanks for your good wishes, much appreciated.


You *have *been to the doctor, haven't you??


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## Guest (May 29, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You *have *been to the doctor, haven't you??


Wrong thread Pesky - Alternative Medicine

_Grabs hat and runs for the door_


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Yossa said:


> Wrong thread Pesky - Alternative Medicine
> 
> _Grabs hat and runs for the door_


Sorry - wierdo , homeopathic/ tree hugging hermit, otherwise known as a voodoo artist, mascarading as a health expert who is waiting to strip you of not only all your money, but also of all intelligence, because the moment you walk through the door you become a King Numpty.

Well, have you been to someone of that persuasion or not????


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I can scarcely move!! But thanks for your good wishes, much appreciated.
> 
> Yes, I'm listening to you...but I think that you haven't grasped my basic point which is simply that there are too many people on a small island!
> As for housing....yes, the UK situation is dire. Did you know that fewer social housing starts were made under the Blair Government than under Thatcher....Getting people into decent affordable housing was one of my main interests whilst in politics. Because Thatcher cut funds for new build social housing we took our council housing stock via a Management Buy-Out into a Housing Association. We put 100% of the money received into immediately buying up properties to cut our waiting list.
> ...


Sorry to hear about yuur pain and the stress it is causing you. 
*Did you get your ribs checked out?*

On your post....
Yes I do get your point about too many people on a small island. 
To take that further, I also get the point about Western nations in general having a limit to their resources, whether that is housing, health, or employment. And I realise that something has to be done. 

I also realise that many are thinking that something has to be done very quickly, and about those with a racist agenda taking the field of an open debate right now. So I take your point about a debate being in the future (because any other suggestion I might make on this subject would have people shouting at me that I am against free speech... ).

But now we are getting somewhere in talking about possible problems with severely curbing immigration and I think we see common ground here.

Yes, the UK and other member states of the EU have a real problem with falling population growth and an increasingly aging population.
If things carry on this way and are coupled with strict immigration rules, particularly as they are proposed to apply to potential wage earners and tax payers, there will eventually be no welfare state in the UK and no state health care in Spain.

But the irony here is that, as you say, the population of most Western nations is declining and aging, so each country wants to hold onto its young, skilled population.
Former Eastern Bloc Governments of course had their answer to that one... but we really don't want to go there! 

On the subject of immigrants lowering wages for skilled workers....
I can only speak of personal knowledge of this, but in the UK city I come from, the Polish immigrants are, as you say, skilled and well qualified workers. But the majority are taking low paid, virtually unskilled jobs.
Il'l give you an example. The local bus company has a large percentage of Polish workers (both male and female) driving their buses. In Poland they would be doctors, engineers, teachers, etc, but now they are bus drivers, doing long, unsocial hours on a wage which is only just above minimum pay level.
Local factories (those which are left) also have Polish workers doing unskilled manual work. This time at minimum wage level.
In both these situations, the employers concerned found it difficult in the extreme to find reliable English workers.
Sure, English people would turn up and do a few weeks work, but then they would take time off or leave. In contrast, the Polish workers, tied by the need to send money home to their families, stayed put. That's why they are often preferred. 

Now you could say (and I would agree to some extent) that these workers are lowering wages (or at least in this case keeping low paid jobs at a minimum wage level), but there is more to it than that.
Employers need reliable workers. Polish workers fit the bill, while, sadly, many English workers often do not.
And the irony is that it is these same English workers who tend to shout the loudest about Poles taking their jobs...jobs they didn't seem to want anyway!

By the way, I applaud your efforts on social housing and wish you had been working in my (UK) neck of the woods!
There, you will be lucky to find any decent property via the council or housing authorities. And it wouldn't matter what colour your skin, or whether you had lived in that city all your life or just arrived there.
There is no social housing to speak of...apart from the B and B type. 
And if immigration was stopped tomorrow, there would still be no real social housing to spare for those waiting for homes. Nothing, nada, zilch!

You say, "I would say that 99% of the British population are not racist. Fearful, conservative, ignorant even..but not racist."
I agree. I also wonder whether that definition also applies to homophobia and would guess that it does.

European Championship...
I have been following the European Championship debate with some interest, especially since Sol Campbell got involved. And I think he makes a very good point, which you have experience of as well.
UEFA, on the other hand, are taking the cop-out line with their statement that this European Championship "clearly creates an opportunity to address and confront such societal issues."
Well it may do... but only from afar.
The problem is that any Black, Asian, Mixed Race, or Homosexual football fans attending the European Championship will not be in that comfortable position.

However, you say, "It's interesting that fifty years almost of socialist 'internationalist' propaganda couldn't educate these people out of a racism and anti-Semitism that sadly is part of the nationalcultures of many Eastern European states." 
But you have also said, "I think racism is a psychological illness, as is true homophobia."

So, is this psychological illness the result of being part of a national culture...?
Interesting thought....

Hope your sleep has some good effect on your pain.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, I can scarcely move!! But thanks for your good wishes, much appreciated. by Mary.(QUOTE)

Hope you start to feel better soon, have you tried ice packs to help with pain, and breathing in as deeply as you can, whilst holding/bracing your injured rib cage,to prevent chest infection due to the poorer rib cage function,it is recommended for possible cracked ribs. to keep the intercostal muscles working. I know in UK they don't x-ray for suspected cracked ribs anymore, unless they suspect underlying injury to lungs, spleen, liver or kidneys.
Hope you are well soon, however cracked ribs do take a few weeks to heal, rest in the most comfortable position you can find, and consult a Doctor if things don't improve soon.

Regarding immigration in the Uk, I have seen a lot of changes over the years in the mostly industrial areas of the North West, where I grew up. 
In the 1950's, some of the mills were still open, producing cotton, there were dye works, mostly Uk caucasian people worked there, and lived in the rows upon rows of small terraced houses surrounding the mills. There was plenty of social housing for those who needed it, and the waiting lists were not that long, my grandfather lived in a council house with a huge garden as he had been a relatively low wage earner, had 6 children, then his wife my real grandmother died when all the children were young.The main religion was either Catholic or protestant, and there were many churches in that area, religion was an important part of life for everyone in the community, as it formed part of a social life too with Girl Guides and Scouts, church bands, and sunday school outings.
Businesses in the area were mainly owned and passed down through generations of caucasians like butchers, fruit shops. More of the clothes and shoe shops tended to be owned by Jewish immigrants, who tended to live in an area just a few miles away, in their area we used to love going to their shops as the had a lovely delicatessen and a bakery. 
The area just outside the major town had ex- mills which became sewing 'rooms' making lots of garments, another ex mill became a screw fixture manufacturer, these business's were mainly owned by Jewish people.
The Poles and Italians had another great area, were most of them lived, again different types of delicatessen shops, and at Whit week when they all wore their National costumes they were a pleasure to behold as they did the Whit walks with the Catholic churches, also the time of the earlier Italian and Polish restaurants evolving.
My little sister was born at home in our house in 1955, and we had a wonderful lady who was a friend looking after my mum, we called her Aunty, she was the only black lady within quite a large area. She had been in UK for many years by then, and was widow to a caucasian husband, they had 5 lovely children.
So that is what our area was like in the 1950's, no problems at all everybody mixed well.
In the early sixties there was slight change, for the better, to enhance the cultural mix, and give us Chinese Take away/chip shops then their restaurants, a few mainly Sikh Drs started arriving (who could speak English), and in the later 60's we got the Indian restaurants. This early group of 'pioneer' immigrants only tended to come to start business's etc with only immediate family, they tended to live 
'dotted about' so to speak, in the general community, mainly in private house-they didn't expect an automatic council house, very family orientated, and mixed well, some of the Indian religions had their own places of worship, and just got on worshipping, without condemning the religions around them in the host country, and there was respect all around. 
There was no generous benefits for not working in those days, in fact my mother stood by us children and mainly brought us up on her own, as she couldn't divorce a very nasty man of a father we had and claim any type of benefit. She waited to divorce him after were earning money and effectively ready to fly the nest.
I remember as part of my High School studies, we not only studied the bible, and discussed it, but we were also taken on day trips to visit Synagogues and a Sikh temple, not just to view the building, but to listen why their beliefs were different to what we knew, I really enjoyed that.
It is when the UK benefits system became 'more generous' easier to get, and young mothers without a partner chose not to work and get local authority housing free, which was easier for them in the late 60's early 70's,around that time an influx of legal and illegal immigrants also started to arrive.
Uk was a very attractive country for them to aim for, great NHS (i worked in it), a few jobs going for those willing to accept less wages in the 'legal employment', and the emergence of gang masters who were smuggling people in illegally to effectively work as slaves.
What did annoy the vast amount of UK people, was that those coming in illegally, maybe claiming political assylem, were housed first in ex-hotels or similar, then given council housing and all the benefits to go with it. Even of those true assylem seekers, many chose to stay in the UK, rather than go home after their own country had settled its problems. Children of UK born and bred for generations, parents could not easily get a council house, even though they were low wage earners.
Many immigrants were allowed to bring into the Uk, their 'VERY' extended family members, even the polygamous ones brought over extra wives and children. UK turned a blind eye to marriages of convenience where some one married and often paid the UK and now EU spouse just to gain entry into the UK from various other continents, because it was indeed a country where they knew they could get free health care, and the need to work would not be too great as they would receive benefits. Many of these marriages of convenience ended in divorce once the corrupt person had got entry to the UK.
This type of mass immigrant since the early 70s has caused ghetto type areas to spring up around nearly every major UK city, some are 'no go' areas if you want to drive through them, and walking is a definate no no, as you would be lucky to come out with your wallet, the crime rate has risen amongst the ethnic inhabitants between themselves and others of various casts, stabbings are common place, and theft on the outskirts of these areas have risen, and the UK inhabitant living nearby to these ghetto areas has had to put up extra security in the home to safeguard their belongings.
Also another thing which the Uk gov changed in the late 70's early 80's was to suggest to schools not to have Western religion type school assemblies, like prayer and hymns at the start of the day, and for some schools in more ethnically mixed areas to ban the Nativity Play at christmas, as these 'might offend the ethnic minority', I think that is one of the worst things they could have done, as this was basically a Christian country, and it caused resentment by a lot of people who are not racially prejudiced. My own personal view is that if I go to visit another persons country, I will respect their beliefs, dress accordingly so as not to offend, but not try to force my religious beliefs on anybody, very much "When in Rome" attitude.
To conclude, it is not the immigrant individually that causes a problem, it is the fact that governments have allowed too many favours leaning towards their religious beliefs and financial expectations, without consulting what the vast majority of UK people might think!, plus the government have not been keeping enough of an eye on the numbers being let in whether legal or illegal,only so many people will fit comfortably in such a small country and find work, especially these days when there is none to be found. 
A few weeks ago I saw a Youtube of a large ethnic group demonstrating in the streets of Luton, the commentator to the youtube is a caucasian lady, and she was being called a whore and other nasty names, and physically pushed by the group of demonstrator 'guests", for wearing a just below the knee dress, with cap sleeves. Now that wouldn't dare be shown on national TV, because it is in fact reverse racism, and this group of demonstrators would not even get their hands smacked for speaking to a caucasian woman in this way. I wonder how many times a caucasian footballer has been called a white ****** or similar insult in the game, and just laughed it off!, the way that the media deals with even the slightest racial insult from a white man to a black man during football, just sensationalises it and causes more racial tension. Footballers behaved themselves with the insults after seeing Fabrice Muamba collapse on the pitch,' therefore but the grace of god go any of them', they were all routing for his return to life.
Well! this is just my way of letting you all know how I have seen various nationalities live and work in harmony, and how the change and expectations have evolved in just one area of UK, to become what it is today with far more tension, similar changes to the area which Mrs Gillian Duffy lived in, and I am sure there are similar stories up and down the country.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

The only reason most of them would think of going to the uk is the benefits simple
Spain is not a benefit country and hates giving anything away people would starve here if it wasnt fjr handouts from the eu food parcels etc
So i think the uk should stop them entering no job no money back to spain simple


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> The only reason most of them would think of going to the uk is the benefits simple
> Spain is not a benefit country and hates giving anything away people would starve here if it wasnt fjr handouts from the eu food parcels etc
> So i think the uk should stop them entering no job no money back to spain simple


I didn't know that the EU was sending Spain food parcels...where did you read that?

I can't agree that 'most' people who go to the UK do so to get benefits. It is a misconception that immgrants can get access to all benefits on arrival in the UK. Somethey can get, true, but not much. 

When I see those 'UK Border' programmes on tv where they ferret out illegal immigrants I sometimes wish they'd allow them to stay and regularise their position if they are working, as most seem to be. Perhaps we could deport a few of those Brits who do abuse the welfare system and keep these working immigrants....
And deport a few tax evaders along with them since their unpaid tax dwarfs the size of the welfare bill.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter, PW and Fergie...

Thankyou so much for your obviously sincere wishes....so kind of you. Yes, I've had medical advice....but as I knew from previous experience of cracked ribs, there is nothing that can be done. Just creams and pills. They don't even strap you up these days.

Just to deal with a few points from your posts:

Fergie; you put that very well. When I first went to live in London I was thrilled to see so many different ethnicities and nationalities living together harmoniously. In my area of North London there were Greek and Turkish Cypriots, West Indians, Asians, Poles...we shared a house with a Guyanese student and his wife. But this was a mixed area, not a ghetto and that makes such a difference.
I've said before: multi-racialism works and is good. Multi-culturalism leads to social disintegration.
Your point about what happens in schools is so true. We celebrated Diwali and Eid more than Christmas . The Vicar once complained we gave more prominence to Halloween than Easter.
I don't believe in religious indoctrination in schools but it seems sad that we have a generation who may never have heard the Bible stories that are an essential part of our British culture. I believe strongly in cultural pluralism but not in multi-culti. Some cultures are superior to 'ours' others less so.

Solwriter: as soon as we had formed our Housing Association and the Council had given the cash from the sale to us, the Thatcher Government changed the rules on what could be done with the proceeds of such sell-offs. The money realised was ruled to be in future used principally to reduce debt, lower local taxes or help fund other projects such as sports centres.

I actually do think that the racism and homophobia of a large minority in Poland and other Eastern European states is indeed a shared psychosis. I have at first hand witnessed the frighteningly irrational hatred for gays that some people, young people included, exhibit in Poland. Anti-Semitism, homophobia, racism...all, sadly, fanned by elements in the Catholic Church. There was an advert for a vile radio station, Radio Marya, outside the nuns' residence where I stay when in Poland. This station specialises in diatribes about gays and Jews.
(My bed there has a picture of the late Pope on the wall above it so I tell people I sleep under the Pope...)
The priests I challenged about this said it wasn't important.
That's what the Mayor said when I challenged him about the anti-Semitic graffiti on every surface...just football fans, he said dismissively..
Racism, like other perversions such as paedophilia, is to my way of thinking not normal. It's a disease.
The kind of racism and homophobia found in parts of Eastern European society is a thousand times more virulent and vicious than anything I've ever encountered in the UK....It is a sign of a twisted, sick mind.
As a student in the 1960s, I joined CARD - remember that? We went to a meeting held by the National Front in Wood Green to disrupt it -which we did - and I got kicked and spat at by local racist thugs. But that was nothing compared to what I've seen in Poland.
I have personally never been the target of homophobic abuse. God or someone gave me a big mouth and people knew I would use it. I was left alone. But some of the casework I have dealt with would make you weep...


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

I was the subject of racial abuse when I was only 5 years old, when I first went to live in England.
I was a blond curly haired, blue eyed child, having been born to a German mother and English father in Germany, soon after the war. I was completely bilingual when I came to England, and knew nothing of the war. My teachers at primary school were great, and helped me adapt, and they thought the fact I spoke two languages was 'novel'. However some of the other children in the class did not think the same, I was beaten up, called names, and once had the skin of the insides of both hands torn off when trying to stop one of them running his bike (with the old fashioned type brakes on the handle bar) directly at me, very sore!.
This type of ignorance was indoctrinated by their less intellectually gifted parents, it was mainly the boys in this mixed infant school who were the bullies, although a couple of the girls thought they were one social class above me because I was of mixed parentage. I generally ignored them and just carried on learning, by the time I left primary school I had some of the nicer boys and girls from better families as good friends, I was recognised by them as a person they were happy to know, and when I went to an all girls High school after that the racial jibes stopped.
Multi pluralism does work, as I have had the pleasure to experience in the area I lived in, but over population in the now ghetto areas does not, it breeds extremism and trouble with no respect for the culture and country they have adopted as their home.
I have had the experience of knowing many Poles mainly through business's in England, and some during my career,and they have been nice pleasant people, but I have never been to Poland. Perhaps those Poles and Eastern Europeans who came to live in UK many years ago found the freedom of speech and free'r thinking in the Uk in those days rubbed off on them in a good way. 
I am really surprised there is anti-semetism and homophobia still apparent in some of the old Eastern European countries! they must be really behind the times, and indoctrinated by the powers that be to think that way, I wonder when they will wake up to the real human race.
When you think deeply about some of these issues of race of any kind, a lot of the troubles and wars are caused by the more extreme beliefs in peoples religions, and dictators, be they political or the religious leaders imposing their views and values strongly on other people, it has gone on for millions of years, and we hope it will all stop one day, 
On a lighter note, I have been watching catch ups recorded of Corrie--Sad!! but I like it, while trying to write this post, and realise it is so bloomin late, so Goodnight I am off to bed.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Racism, anti-semitism and homophobia are in the air in all the former socialist countries I've lived in. 
In the Czech Republic, the most common form of racism is directed against the Roma. Czechs actually refer to themselves as 'bily' -white - to differentiate them from the Roma who tend to live in ramshackle housing in ghettos. I didn't detect homophobia - most Czechs are very laid back and non-judgmental about sex - and there are so few black people that I couldn't give an opinion on that kind of racism.

Why is this the case? Well, I think that this kind of racism (I'll use that to include anti-Semitism) comes from a mixture of sources. One is undoubtedly the Catholic Church. This Polish/Ukrainian etc. anti-semitism isn't of the Nazi pseudo-scientific kind, it's the theological 'Jews as Christ-killers' variety. Add that to the fact that this part of the world was for centuries a peasant society,with all the ignorance and bigotry that can accompany this enclosed form of society. 
There is a German saying you will know, Fergie: 'Was der Bauer nicht kennt, das frisst er nicht.' I think that sums up this mindset.
Add to that the fact that when it suited them, the socialist rulers played the anti-Semitic, anti-foreigner card.
I remember talking with a group of African students in Moscow in the mid-eighties. All had experienced racial harassment.
These sentiments are entrenched in the common culture in Eastern Europe. Of course not everyone shares in them or openly expresses them but it's there, deeply embedded. To me it's a form of psychosis, an irrationality, an illness.
When you see as we saw in those awful clips from football matches the display of Nazi symbols and slogans in countries which saw their own and their Jewish communities massacred by Nazis, with the eager assistance of their fellow-countrymen, what else can it be but extreme irrationality at work here?
It's often overlooked that in many of the shootings which preceded the gassing in the death camps, as in those camps themselves, much of the day-to-day 'work' was carried out by Latvian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian and other Eastern European nationals.
In my old age I'm beginning to believe that cultural/historical factors are the determining influence on human behaviour and that there is such a thing as 'human nature' which is not as malleable as I used to think when I espoused socialist views.
As I said before, neither Nazi or socialist 'reshaping' managed to suppress the national cultures of the peoples of Eastern Europe.
The example of former Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and the Baltic states are good examples of the resurgence of culture, as is the persistance of religion and cultural identity in Poland.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

fergie said:


> I was the subject of racial abuse when I was only 5 years old, when I first went to live in England.
> I was a blond curly haired, blue eyed child, having been born to a German mother and English father in Germany, soon after the war. I was completely bilingual when I came to England, and knew nothing of the war. My teachers at primary school were great, and helped me adapt, and they thought the fact I spoke two languages was 'novel'. However some of the other children in the class did not think the same, I was beaten up, called names, and once had the skin of the insides of both hands torn off when trying to stop one of them running his bike (with the old fashioned type brakes on the handle bar) directly at me, very sore!.
> This type of ignorance was indoctrinated by their less intellectually gifted parents, it was mainly the boys in this mixed infant school who were the bullies, although a couple of the girls thought they were one social class above me because I was of mixed parentage. I generally ignored them and just carried on learning, by the time I left primary school I had some of the nicer boys and girls from better families as good friends, I was recognised by them as a person they were happy to know, and when I went to an all girls High school after that the racial jibes stopped.


I was also the subject of racial abuse at school, but I remember a girl of German and English origin being treated much worse than me, even in the 60s - the so called time of peace and love and more than 20 years from the end of WW2. And I shamefully admit that I was glad that their taunting of her often took the heat off of me.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Solwriter: as soon as we had formed our Housing Association and the Council had given the cash from the sale to us, the Thatcher Government changed the rules on what could be done with the proceeds of such sell-offs. The money realised was ruled to be in future used principally to reduce debt, lower local taxes or help fund other projects such as sports centres.


The Thatcher Government has _so much_ to answer for in what has happened to the UK. 
I'm not one who usually apportions blame to any one group, as I think that mistakes (and sometimes downright swindles) are made by all political parties and groups at some time.
But so much of the UK's present problems can be traced back to that era (and, I have to say, to those who carried on utilising the system the Thatcher Government helped to create).


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> These sentiments are entrenched in the common culture in Eastern Europe. Of course not everyone shares in them or openly expresses them but it's there, deeply embedded. To me it's a form of psychosis, an irrationality, an illness.
> When you see as we saw in those awful clips from football matches the display of Nazi symbols and slogans in countries which saw their own and their Jewish communities massacred by Nazis, with the eager assistance of their fellow-countrymen, what else can it be but extreme irrationality at work here?
> It's often overlooked that in many of the shootings which preceded the gassing in the death camps, as in those camps themselves, much of the day-to-day 'work' was carried out by Latvian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian and other Eastern European nationals.


But you can also look at History and find something very similar taking place in Western Europe. The Vichy Regime in France during WW2.
Some would excuse this regime as built out of necessity, but others would look at the open collaboration with the Nazis by some of the French people as showing a deeply ingrained ethnocentrism. 

The rounding up of Jews, Gypsies, Communists, Freemasons, Homosexuals, and other so-called 'undesirables' and putting them in their own, ready-made internment camps. Plus the rounding up of foreign workers to make Foreign Workers Groups, the repeal of French laws banning antisemitism, and the 'interest' in a eugenics policy.

Was this irrational? Based upon a deep national (or perhaps regional) psychosis?
Or was it simply that Pétain's political group took the initiative, in a _rational_ way, ostensibly 'to protect the interests of the majority of French people', while gaining political power for themselves?

Personally, I think it was a case of a far right political group playing upon the inherent racism in some parts of French society for their own political ends.
Which would make the racism (or in this case more ethnocentrism) irrational, but the harnessing of it completely rational.

Which kind of takes me back to my earlier statements..... 
That any political measures which have been shown to spark racism have to be carried out very carefully indeed.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> The Thatcher Government has _so much_ to answer for in what has happened to the UK.
> I'm not one who usually apportions blame to any one group, as I think that mistakes (and sometimes downright swindles) are made by all political parties and groups at some time.
> But so much of the UK's present problems can be traced back to that era (and, I have to say, to those who carried on utilising the system the Thatcher Government helped to create).


I am unashamed to say that I blame the Thatcher Governments for everything that has happened for the worse in our society. If I could make a link, I'd blame her for my cracked ribs.

For over thirty years we've been ruled by free marketeers, in the UK, Europe and much of the West. Left or right, both swallowed the laissez-faire nonsense.

Now the monster they created has become out of control. Our 'leaders' have no idea what to do. The public is dismissive of politicians, understandably...but that's a dangerous place to be.

There is a dangerous vacuum in politics....Thatcher killed conservatism, socialism in practice demonstrated its sheer impossibility. Vacuums are dangerous...

I cannot for the life of me understand why people admire Thatcher. She failed in every one of her stated aims.
Because of her policies, more people lived off the state, public spending in real terms rose, family break-up soared and as for thrift and prudence.....


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have just been doing a bit of reading this afternoon, and found this article, with some interesting graphs, which show the rise in immigration since the 1960's to 2005, I haven't looked at many figures before, but with such a rise, just before recession hit the Uk, you can understand why this has added to the tension, on top of the fact that various governments for many years before did not put in a contingency plan to deal with this.Radicalism rose steadily in the 2000's, as did inter-racial tension between middle eastern asians and black immigrants. These are just official figures of the ones who declared themselves on census, the government suspect there are many more illegally not declared.
I don't think Uk can find enough to keep the immigrant population happy, being a small island with limited jobs for everyone. Those who do pay taxes are also getting very upset about the fact that large amounts of money have been expended on people who have never contributed in their lives, but live in the Uk then impose their religious beliefs, on UK citizens. If a UK citizen stands up to them and answers back, then they are being racist, there is becoming less and less that they the UK citizen can say without being accused, and sometimes taken to court as being racist. The race relations act does not work in 'reverse' where a UK national can take a lesser minority immigrant to court, for being racist against them,i.e. calling a British woman a ****, whore for not wearing a Burkha, just a minor example, so the freedom of speech has gone, one has to remain politically correct all the time!. 
The days of multi pluralism and harmony are almost history, never to return in the UK generally.

Focus-Migration: United Kingdom

I am going to enjoy a peaceful retirement, but I worry for the future of my Grandchildren who have to grow up in such a changed UK.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here are some more very recent figures last week in fact, shocking! I 'borrowed' them off another forum.This website also has other info. you can find.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/may-2012/msqr.html


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted by jimenato
> jojo - what you don't understand is that EVERYTHING is Maggie's fault. The fact that when Labour where in power before her they presided over what is popularly known as the Winter of Discontent is her fault and the fact that when Labour where voted out after thirteen years having changed virtually nothing and leaving Britain in the worst financial crisis in living memory is her fault. The wreck of the Costa Concordia is her fault as well.





mrypg9 said:


> Oh cm'on Simon......you can't accuse me of that!!





mrypg9 said:


> I am unashamed to say that I blame the Thatcher Governments for everything that has happened for the worse in our society. If I could make a link, I'd blame her for my cracked ribs.


I have a very long memory...


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

fergie said:


> Here are some more very recent figures last week in fact, shocking! I 'borrowed' them off another forum.This website also has other info. you can find.
> Migration Statistics Quarterly Report May 2012


whats shocking about them. figures havnt changed that much compaired to previous figures and its mainly made up of students according to the report

re your other comments. the uk is about a non religious country as you can get. no one imposes religious beliefs on anyone unless you want to talk about sunday trading laws! ;-). and recently on our local news a well known black actor was convicted of racially abusing his ex so yes people of all religions races etc do get charged. not least forgeting the nutcase one handed cleric. and heck im a door supervisor i deal with the drunken dressed up like prostitutes young females of the wonderful uk every weekend. and some of them do look and act like ****s due to some of the things ive seen go on.. considering you said above your were abused as a kid your post has a undertone to it. by hey i guess blaming the muslims for everything makes a change from blaming the jews. whos the next scapegoat.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

sadly Your post in the uk section confirms your attitude.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

fergie said:


> I have just been doing a bit of reading this afternoon, and found this article, with some interesting graphs, which show the rise in immigration since the 1960's to 2005, I haven't looked at many figures before, but with such a rise, just before recession hit the Uk, you can understand why this has added to the tension, on top of the fact that various governments for many years before did not put in a contingency plan to deal with this.Radicalism rose steadily in the 2000's, as did inter-racial tension between middle eastern asians and black immigrants. These are just official figures of the ones who declared themselves on census, the government suspect there are many more illegally not declared.
> I don't think Uk can find enough to keep the immigrant population happy, being a small island with limited jobs for everyone. Those who do pay taxes are also getting very upset about the fact that large amounts of money have been expended on people who have never contributed in their lives, but live in the Uk then impose their religious beliefs, on UK citizens. If a UK citizen stands up to them and answers back, then they are being racist, there is becoming less and less that they the UK citizen can say without being accused, and sometimes taken to court as being racist. The race relations act does not work in 'reverse' where a UK national can take a lesser minority immigrant to court, for being racist against them,i.e. calling a British woman a ****, whore for not wearing a Burkha, just a minor example, so the freedom of speech has gone, one has to remain politically correct all the time!.
> The days of multi pluralism and harmony are almost history, never to return in the UK generally.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry Fergie, but there is so much confusion (and probably misinformation) in this post (and my head hurts from working too late), that all I will say for now is that I disagree with many of the points you have made.
Maybe tomorrow...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

fergie said:


> I have just been doing a bit of reading this afternoon, and found this article, with some interesting graphs, which show the rise in immigration since the 1960's to 2005, I haven't looked at many figures before, but with such a rise, just before recession hit the Uk, you can understand why this has added to the tension, on top of the fact that various governments for many years before did not put in a contingency plan to deal with this.Radicalism rose steadily in the 2000's, as did inter-racial tension between middle eastern asians and black immigrants. These are just official figures of the ones who declared themselves on census, the government suspect there are many more illegally not declared.
> I don't think Uk can find enough to keep the immigrant population happy, being a small island with limited jobs for everyone. Those who do pay taxes are also getting very upset about the fact that large amounts of money have been expended on people who have never contributed in their lives, but live in the Uk then impose their religious beliefs, on UK citizens. If a UK citizen stands up to them and answers back, then they are being racist, there is becoming less and less that they the UK citizen can say without being accused, and sometimes taken to court as being racist. The race relations act does not work in 'reverse' where a UK national can take a lesser minority immigrant to court, for being racist against them,i.e. calling a British woman a ****, whore for not wearing a Burkha, just a minor example, so the freedom of speech has gone, one has to remain politically correct all the time!.
> The days of multi pluralism and harmony are almost history, never to return in the UK generally.
> 
> ...


Employing foreigners etc doesnt bother me. They all pay into our tax system and also create jobs in their own small way too. And of course someone has to help pay for our own indigenous lazy louts who prefer to claim benefits. But the UK gives too much to everyone, including its own and by doing so is actually making a generation of people who really dont seem to know how to look after themselves - a generation of spoilt brats who hold their hands open for more and more and get cross when they dont get it. As for its national identity, well it has tried to turn us into a multicultural society and IMO it hasnt worked - not cos of racism, but simply cos people are tribal. Maybe one day, all the nationalities will melt down into one, but for now, on one hand there is the need and drive to get everyone to integrate, but on the other you have individual cultures demanding the right to remain segregated and generally, thats not about skin colour or race, but about religion!! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I have a very long memory...


So do I, Simon.....

I remember the length of our housing waiting list in the 1980s....I remember the effect unemployment had on our little town...I remember how once neat well-cared for housing estates turned into slums as those tenants who could exercised their 'Right to Buy' - to buy at knock-down prices assets paid for by public money - sold up and moved on, renting their houses out to people whose rent was paid by Housing Benefit.......I remember the Unemployed Workers Centre where Sandra and I worked as volunteers and where we counselled and advised decent working people thrown on the scrapheap as factories closed....

Even the foolish and destructive miners' strike was 'won' more because of Scargill's arrogance and stupidity than Thatcher's guile.

I have attacked Thatcher on her record not on her personality. With Thatcher fans the opposite is true...they ignore the verifiable fact that she failed in all her stated aims and praise her 'resoluteness', 'courage' and 'convictions'.

You will find many posts where I have ranted about neo-liberalism and the free market and I pin the blame fairly and squarely on the 'Iron Lady', a rather rusted icon now.

But I may also have said that her virtues included determination to stand up to the old Tory aristocratic hierarchy with its snobbery and sexism and what I believe to be her personal lack of bigotry. I got to know John Major's Secretary in Prague and she, although no Thatcher fan, spoke of her personal kindness and thoughtfulness. I think it possible that she agonised more over sending troops to the Falklands than Blair did over sending troops to Iraq.

As Orwell said, it is not given to one person to have all the vices, including the sainted Margaret.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Just a couple of points about anti-discrimination law....

This year I'm not going to the TUC Equalilties Conference. The reason is that for a couple of years now I have been unhappy at some of the discourse involved in the 'equalities agenda'.

It shouldn't need to be said that I am against unfair discrimination in any shape or form. But I believe that there is a very real danger that basic freedoms are being nibbled away at in the name of anti-racism and other 'antis'.

I took part in consultations over the last Government's Single Equalities Bill. During the course of the discussions, it seemed to me that there was a movement towards a legalism and one-sidedness that held possible dangers to basic liberties. 

The Equalities Act allows any individual who* perceives* that s/he has been harassed in any of the ways defined by the Act to take action against the perceived 'harasser'. It is the 'victim's' perception not the 'offender's intention which is to determine whether there are grounds for legal action. So an innocent remark which may have inadvertantly caused offence becomes a crime..... an offence which could have been dealt with in other more effective ways.

This seems to me to be both wrong and dangerous. It is far too vague, loose and open-ended. I also detected a rather patronising viewpoint becoming prevalent, that certain minorities required more protection than others. I was alarmed when a BNP twerp at a private meeting was prosecuted for describing Islam as a 'backward religion'. I was warned against speaking out against practices such as forced marriage, female genital mutilation and honour killing as these were 'sensitive' topics.

I couldn't give a damn if someone said that my sexual orientation is immoral and disgusting - it's their right. I can stand my corner. When religion prescribes that I should be buried up to my neck and stoned for being gay, I think a mild protest is in order.

A small group of vociferous people, some self-appointed spokespersons for minorities, have been allowed to claim the 'rights agenda' and tip the balance.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Lucie123 said:


> whats shocking about them. figures havnt changed that much compaired to previous figures and its mainly made up of students according to the report
> 
> re your other comments. the uk is about a non religious country as you can get. no one imposes religious beliefs on anyone unless you want to talk about sunday trading laws! ;-). and recently on our local news a well known black actor was convicted of racially abusing his ex so yes people of all religions races etc do get charged. not least forgeting the nutcase one handed cleric. and heck im a door supervisor i deal with the drunken dressed up like prostitutes young females of the wonderful uk every weekend. and some of them do look and act like ****s due to some of the things ive seen go on.. considering you said above your were abused as a kid your post has a undertone to it. by hey i guess blaming the muslims for everything makes a change from blaming the jews. whos the next scapegoat.


671,000 National Insurance numbers (NINos) were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to December 2011, an increase of one per cent on the year to December 2010
These figures I find shocking, when Uk dropped into recession in 2007, then double dip a few months ago. Whether some of these NINos were issued to students or not, when long standing citizens of the UK can't get work. Granted there might have been some jobs which UK citizens would have prefered not to do but not 671,000! it is a joke! Uk cannot take those numbers.
As for the type of job you have, I envy your patience, I agree that the booze culture of Uk younger people is a growing problem, and the way especially the girls will dress on a boozy night out-Hen do or whatever is asking for trouble, from any kind of preditor man to take advantage of them.
The woman who I was refering to in my earlier post, happened to be a junior reporter, who was decently dressed, red below the knee dress, with cap sleeves, scoop neck- not even a plunging neckline, she was the one who was called a whore, and a few other names and pushed about by an angry mob of men and women demonstrators of mid Asian decent, for being dressed the way she was.
As far as your other assumptions of me are concerned, I was brought up in an area where we had one of the largest Jewish communities in Europe, there were also lots of Poles and Italians, with the occasional Indian Doctors first appearing in our NHS,then more Chinese came over to either join the NHS or to open the Chinese style restaurants and chip shops This was in the 1950-60's, a wonderful time, communities integrated, those who didn't speak English as a first language made an effort to learn, the areas in which these communities lived were safe for anybody to walk through, without fear of being mugged.
In my area it was safe to leave your front door open, nobody would dare enter you house unless they knocked, out of politeness.
We had friends of different religions, Catholic, Sikh, Hindu and Jewish, and also used the various new style shops they opened like delicatessons Jewish, Polish and Italian, Indian shops selling their perfumes and josh sticks-all new in the late 50-early 60s.
Through business and travel we have friends all over the world, Catholic Arabs and jewish friends in Israel, muslim friends in Lebanon, Dubai and Kuwait, and we dress accordingly, so as not to offend when we have been to visit at any time even Ramadan. One of my better friends, who I sat next to at college was an English girl who married a muslim and converted to it, so believe me I am not blind or prejudiced to other peoples religion, and realise that most people are peace loving. We have many friends in the Far East in Hong kong and China Christian and Buddhist, All the various places we have lived have been very interesting, and we have always found out about the 'locals' culture and customs to make sure we don't offend, we have learned various languages on route, English of course, French, German, a little bit of Mandarin, now learning Spanish because we like to integrate and communicate.
Most UK people have a basic Christian belief, Catholic or C of E, many churches are still well attended on a Sunday, and many organisations like Girl guides, scouts, youth clubs, charity events still take place at churches. Some people may not necessarily go to church each week, but still have the same basic beliefs. Most UK citizens used to enjoy watching their children perform Nativity plays at Christmas, this in a lot of areas has been stopped, to not offend the smaller non Christian population.
What concerns me is the rise in extreme and mass indoctrination by more radical groups of the immigrants which have been allowed into UK, which turns into loss of life, in Uk and US, 9/11(many of those involved 'primed' in UK towns,), Lockerbie, London tube bombing, Uk riots only last year, and many more smaller incidents of one immigrant group fighting another, regular stabbings in ghetto estates,gun crime, rise in drug crime, to me it is not the way to repay a country which has allowed you in, and given you a home. Some are bringing their more tribal primitive ways with them.
Sorry Lucie, I am not racist I still have my friends of different religions, I realise some of Uks own can be A***holes as well, but what really annoys me is the fact that immigrants can commit crimes of all levels, some very serious, go to jail at the tax payers expense, then get released often to claim benefits, without being deported. If a UK citizen would commit the same crimes in some of the immigrants home countries, and managed to miss the death penalty in some, they would definatly be sent back home at the end of the sentence. 
Why some can't adapt to the country in which they live and respect the people and the way of life, I don't know.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lucie123 said:


> sadly Your post in the uk section confirms your attitude.


What 'attitude'? Fergie is expressing a point of view without any racist undertones whatsoever. That is her right and it is the nibbling away at this right that worries me.

One of the main reasons that people in areas like Barking and Dagenham turn to far-right groups like the EDL and BNP is their perception that white working people especially unskilled white men are being discriminated against. Now that may be untrue but as Marx famously said, false consciousness leads to action.

There is a very real danger that a tiny number of people will punch way beyond their weight and further create this kind of climate where resentment and frustrations simmer . I'm referring to people on both 'sides' - black and Muslim extremist groups as well as 'English' ones.

I think your statement that students make up most of the numbers is incorrect. Bear in mind also that many of these 'students' are bogus. 

As for the 'drunken ****s' you see at weekends...that goes with the job. These silly vulgar young women -and men - may be a large minority but they are not typical of British men and women. 
Besides which, drunkenness ranks low in my list of sins compared with honour killings, female genital mutilation and forced marriage, all of which are practised in the UK by equally small groups of Muslims.
An unreported scandal -I wonder why?? - is the large number of young teenage Muslim girls who go missing from their schools. They are sent to Pakistan to be married and return with their husbands to lives in Britain that entail in effect being ghettoised in British society.
The example of the Rochdale sex grooming case, which was hushed up for fear of inflaming racial sensitivity, and which was brought to the open by a British Asian public prosecutor, speaks volumes.
If we are truly non-biased, we will treat all issues objectively. We will not 'make allowances' for cultural differences. That is in itself patronising and racist. 

I think your last remark about 'Jews and Muslims' and references to 'undertones' are a tad offensive , frankly. 
This is a serious, dignified discussion which should not be soiled by cheap, personal shots.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

fergie said:


> 671,000 National Insurance numbers (NINos) were allocated to non-UK nationals in the year to December 2011, an increase of one per cent on the year to December 2010
> These figures I find shocking, when Uk dropped into recession in 2007, then double dip a few months ago. Whether some of these NINos were issued to students or not, when long standing citizens of the UK can't get work. Granted there might have been some jobs which UK citizens would have prefered not to do but not 671,000! it is a joke! Uk cannot take those numbers.


But you know, from your interaction on the thread this came from, that those figures do not represent actual people working in the UK (or drawing benefits come to that).
They represent the number of NINos issued and include those issued to short term workers.
As was also said, there are more NINos in circulation than the actual population of the UK.

It is like saying that everyone with an NIE in Spain is working or looking for work.
There is no correlation here, and many holders of an NIE do not live in Spain. The same applies to NINos in the UK.

So, we really cannot rely on these figures as evidence.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> But you know, from your interaction on the thread this came from, that those figures do not represent actual people working in the UK (or drawing benefits come to that).
> They represent the number of NINos issued and include those issued to short term workers.
> As was also said, there are more NINos in circulation than the actual population of the UK.
> 
> ...


I think we need evidence -factual evidence, not anecdotal - but also awareness of people's perceptions. 
Maiden has just pointed out via pm that I have erroneously referred to fgm as a 'muslim' practice when it is in fact cultural rather than exclusively Islamic and is practised by some African Christians. I didn't know that.

What is needed in any debate about contentious issues is fact and balance. My experience has been that the balance has been tipped away from moderation.

When I first joined a TUC Equalities Committee I was solemnly handed a small blue book which contained a list of terms that must at all costs be avoided. These included some that should never be used -but we all know those or should - but also some that were dreamed up by some well-meaning twerp who obviously lived a secluded life away from every-day life.

The term'old people' was a no-no......'seniors', 'mature people' were preferable terms. 'Coloured' - now 'Black', 'disabled' - now 'Differently-abled' were some of the items earnestly recommended so as to avoid offence.

Then there was a section helpfully explaining that whilst terms such as 'queer' and '****' were unacceptable when used by heterosexuals, they were perfectly OK when used by -presumably- queers and *****.

Sad to say, there are out there people who really believe that these things are important, that words are deeds, that by chanting slogans they become reality.
A classic example of this mindset is the ridiculous 'The workers united shall never be defeated' when as any fule kno, pace Molesworth, the 'workers' have never been united and are usually defeated.

This mentality leads down a slippery slope, imo. 'Rights' are now becoming enshrined in law which leads as it obviously would if it had been thought about to clashes between incommensurable 'rights'. Sexual orientation against religious belief: both 'strands' in the Equalities Act. Which trumps the other when they conflict, as they often do? Issues which should be publicly debated and determined by Parliament are becoming legalised which itself leads to the politicisation of law itself, as we see only too clearly in the USA.

Some gay activists aren't content with the anti-discrimination and goods and services laws which give 100% protection to this 'protected characteristic' group (Ugh!! - my sexual choice is in legal terms a 'protected characteristic) . They cannot live with the fact that some people might actually find their sexual orientation sinful or distasteful.
Now I can live with that. There are many things I find distasteful - little blue books that tell me I should 'correct' someone who calls me 'old' for one, 'Britain's Got Talent' for another. 
But I could be in a minority here...or should I say perhaps that I have another 'protected characteristic'?
This calls for legislation.......


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I think we need evidence -factual evidence, not anecdotal - *but also awareness of people's perceptions.*


I'm working on a more complete answer as I write this, but had to stop to post in answer to this point.
I think I've been saying this from day one - not only in this thread, but in others on different subjects.
But I've usually been argued against with facts and figures....
Its a funny old world.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> I'm working on a more complete answer as I write this, but had to stop to post in answer to this point.
> I think I've been saying this from day one - not only in this thread, but in others on different subjects.
> But I've usually been argued against with facts and figures....
> Its a funny old world.


My Marxist past will out, as you've pointed out Facts yes, but perceptions/feelings often over-ride facts, sadly. As someone (Oscvar Wilde?) sagely said, the truth is never plain and rarely simple.

This is slightly off-topic but it's good for a chuckle and in this climate do we need a laugh....is the Pope Catholic? (Probably a non-PC remark but hell, I'm Catholic and I'm allowed to say that) It comes from an earnest piece by one Lenora Billings-Harris about avoidance of language likely to cause offence.
It is NOT a spoof.

_Politically Correct Language
The following list highlights words and phrases that can be substituted for the less respectful terms. If you think this is too much work, ask yourself, "If I were in the group being referred to, would I still feel this is too much work?" 
Insensitive Words & Phrases
Possible Alternatives

Black sheep
Outcast

"Guys" (when referring to a mixed group)
Friends; folks; group

Oriental (when referring to people)
Asian (using the specific nationality, i.e. Korean is even better, when possible)

Acting like wild Indians
Out of control

Girls (when referring to coworkers)
Women

Policemen/postman
Police officer/mail carrier

Manhole
Utility hole

Handicapped
Pople with special needs; people who are physically/mentally challenged; people with disabilities

Gifted children
Advanced learners

Uneducated (when referring to adults)
Lacking a formal education

No culture (when referring to parts of the U.S. where the opera and the theater are scarce or nonexistent) 
Lacking European culture 

The little woman; the wife
Your wife; his wife

Old people
Seniors; "Chronologically Advantaged"

Bitchy or "PMSing"
Assertive

"White" lie
Lie (Calling it white does not make it okay)

Flip chart
Easel (Flip is a derogatory word referring to Filipinos)

wheel-chair bound
A person who uses a wheel-chair

Blacklisted
Banned



There are many more....Now I know what people really mean when they call me 'assertive'_


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Perceptions... 
(and by the way Mary, I've just read your last post as I post this... will comment later  )

Every single person has particular thoughts about 'others' they see as potential trouble makers or worse.
Equally, everyone has an ideal of how they would like their life to be (or a - perhaps - rosy ideal of the past).

Fergie appears to think that England is a Christian country and wants to keep things that way, even if that simply means adhering to christian values. From her point of view and life experience, that is how she sees things.

Lucie (like me) sees little evidence of England being a Christian country (although, for me anyway, I do see some of British laws influenced by Christian beliefs... but that is another story...).

I object to the idea that one needs to be christian (or have any religion) to have the type of values necessary to live in a civilised and caring society and think that, in the case of Britain anyway, the idea of belonging to a 'Christian community' acts as an excuse to define non-christians as somehow 'different' to the rest of 'us'.
I also wonder how much of the idea of this rather ideal Christian community is based upon a rosy view of the past, or, I must add, a happy past in a family where Christian values were paramount. But for Fergie, this works.

Lucie, on the other hand, sees a real problem in the UK of drunken young people, particularly young women dressed and acting provocatively. 
I would argue that, although drinking is a problem in some cases, it always has been. It is just that public drunkenness is now 'the new campaign', now that smokers have been forced into submission.
And I do take offence that any female can be called a **** because of the way she dresses and acts (in fact, I take offense at the word '****') and I see the irony in that, in some Muslim communities, girls dressed and acting like this would be termed in a similar fashion.

However, as a door supervisor, this is what Lucie sees on a regular basis, so I take her point that, for her, this is a problem.
I will also add that, for me, drunken youths are much more frightening, as I have had personal experience of this and have seen the violence and the destruction of families which can occur as a result.
And mixing this in with racist perceptions on each side of the 'fight' can (and has been shown to be) deadly.
Is my experience the norm? Perhaps not. But it certainly influences my perceptions.

Jo, like, it appears, many on this forum, has an open attitude to immigration, coupled with a belief that citizens of the UK have grown up in a bubble of protection which makes some of them lazy.
This certainly seems to be the case, when we get posters on this forum who assume that they will get the same protection when living in another EU member state.

But in my humble opinion, this does not mean that we should be falling for the idea that health and welfare cuts are good.
When coupled with the perceived 'problems of immigration' and 'immigrants coming here to get benefits, etc, etc,...' as promoted in the right wing press, this simply muddies the issue and leaves us open to agreeing with ill-thought-out and hasty legislation which will benefit no one.

Mary, your views on racism, ethnocentrism and homophobia are based not only on personal experience, but, more importantly I would say in your case, on your long experience of working within the socialist movement. And you feel let down in many ways by that experience.
So, anyone who offers a view which sees a real threat of racism arising within any immigration debate, you see as having their views influenced primarily by the socialist left. And you appear to go to great lengths to argue that everyone should have the power of free speech.
You then pick up examples of those who are blatantly using equalities rulings for their own ends. And I agree, some do this.
And I agree that sometimes the law is an ass, and it can sometimes produce victims from the accused.

But you will know from your own working experience, that one can find loopholes in any law. This does not make the overriding principles of the law wrong. 
And to dismiss a law which has been based upon research, much thought, and long debate, simply because there are those who will get around it, is not an ideal solution.

And as to free speech. Here I would go with some on the left who have argued that the right to free speech should be earned.
When those who shout the loudest and have the most influence (political, financial, or just plain violence) can force their views into the public arena (and thus the public perception) on the basis of 'free speech', then to my mind the concept of and the belief in free speech is deeply flawed.

But those are my perceptions.... so far.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> My Marxist past will out, as you've pointed out Facts yes, but perceptions/feelings often over-ride facts, sadly. As someone (Oscvar Wilde?) sagely said, the truth is never plain and rarely simple.
> 
> This is slightly off-topic but it's good for a chuckle and in this climate do we need a laugh....is the Pope Catholic? (Probably a non-PC remark but hell, I'm Catholic and I'm allowed to say that) It comes from an earnest piece by one Lenora Billings-Harris about avoidance of language likely to cause offence.
> It is NOT a spoof.
> ...


Yes, Ive been called 'assertive' too. 

I'm sorry, but I laughed out loud at the manhole change. 

I have an anecdote about the woman term.
One of my daughters taught her daughter not to say 'ladies and gentlemen', but to say women and men.
But she was still horrified to find her two year old in the garden, calling to the next-door neighbour, 'Woman, woman, are you there?', because she knew that the elderly lady in question would take offense.

And on a 'make it sound more acceptable' note...
There is an area in Portsmouth, down near the docks and ferry terminals, that everyone in the city calls The Hard.
But, with the building of the Spinnaker Tower, the new Shopping complex, and many up market apartments, the name of the area has been changed to Gunwharf Quays.
Wonder why....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Perceptions...
> (and by the way Mary, I've just read your last post as I post this... will comment later  )
> 
> Every single person has particular thoughts about 'others' they see as potential trouble makers or worse.
> ...


Free speech.....I didn't specifically mention that but I will..
There is no such thing as 'free speech'. We have slander and libel laws as well as laws which prohibit language to incite and quite right too. You don't shout 'Fire' in a crowded theatre either. There is also 'good manners' and some of what is falsely seen as PC language is ruled out on those grounds imo.
I have no problem with insulting or offensive language per se and would resist the right to prevent a person from freely criticising a religious or political belief. I don't understand your last sentence. Are you suggesting there should be rules for public expression? It has always been and always will be the case that those with power will be heard. Nothing new and nothing we can do about it - but I'll say this: in my little pond I've never had a problem putting my views over.

Flawed Acts of Parliament: I was in at the consultation/Green Paper stages of the Antui-Discrimination in Employment Law and the Equality Act. The first is a model piece of legislation. The second is not and why should I not say on this forum what I said in Committee? The fact is that yes, bad law is ineffectual law.

I honestly don't understand what you mean by some comments such as.:

)So, anyone who offers a view which sees a real threat of racism arising within any immigration debate, you see as having their views influenced primarily by the socialist left. And you appear to go to great lengths to argue that everyone should have the power of free speech B]

I have *never* argued for unrestricted free speech -as I said above, there's no such thing.. In my experience, yes, it is the ideological left that far too often perceives racism where there is none and magnifies it where it exists. Sorry, but that's how it is in my experience of politics. If you'd sat in Committees and endured rants from hard-left Trots and other groupuscules that in some contexts had more influence than they merited - they were put on these DTI Working Parties from their Unions and represented the views of about fifty people in the whole of the UK, in my estimation...Where there has been 'real' racism I don't talk in Committees about it, I get with my NASUWT or in the past Labour Party or CP colleagues on the streets or wherever needed to confront it head-on. One reason why the BNP didn't get Margaret Hodge out of Barking in the 2010 election. The hard left, sometimes rightly labelled 'loony', punches well above its weight and always has done. Its placards dominate tv coverage of any march or demo it parasitically feeds on and tends to damage the cause.
A small example of this is the tendency to throw the word 'fascist' at anything that causes offence in some left-wing quarters.


*But in my humble opinion, this does not mean that we should be falling for the idea that health and welfare cuts are good.
When coupled with the perceived 'problems of immigration' and 'immigrants coming here to get benefits, etc, etc,...' as promoted in the right wing press, this simply muddies the issue and leaves us open to agreeing with ill-thought-out and hasty legislation which will benefit no one*.


Who said these cuts are 'good'? Some may be desireable, others less so. 
As for 'muddying issues'......are you suggesting that we have to be restricted by false perceptions? Must Government be paralysed because of a load of rubbish in The Daily Mail? 
I said we shouldn't ignore false perception...not be enslaved by it. 
What 'hasty' legislation are you specifically referring to, by the way??

As for our 'Christian culture'......culture and religious observation are entirely separate things. The whole of our western culture is based on Christian values. Our sense of right and wrong, our general morality...all part of our centuries-old Christian inheritance. You don't need to practise Christianity to be influenced by the past. Secular religions such as humanism substitute 'man' for Christ. 
Socialism and fascism have their saints, martyrs and hymns. It is the dilution of this previously shared culture, however thin it may have become in the past fifty years, that concerns many people.
And what's wrong with seeing non-Christians as different from Christians -or Jews, or Muslims or pagans for that matter? What is wrong with difference? I thought you shared my views on value-pluralism Vive les differences...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*And as to free speech. Here I would go with some on the left who have argued that the right to free speech should be earned.*


Sol, this both worries and intrigues me. Who decides the criteria by which this right to 'free speech' (which doesn't exist as I pointed out in my last post) should be bestowed?
How can one 'earn' the right to free speech??
And if something is true, it is true, regardless of whether it comes from a Peer of the Realm or a pauper. 
You don't lose your right to lawful expression when you get your first £1 million and neither should you. Were that the case, Tony Benn would be silenced as would David Cameron.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Quick reply Mary - more when I've digested your post. 
You see, that is _my_ perception of some of your arguments. Somewhere along the line during this discussion my mind has come up with the idea that you think everyone has the right to say exactly what they think (unless you read a slightly hidden meaning into their post) and that we should appreciate their views, rather than saying outright that they are wrong.

Back to the drawing board.....


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> Yes, Ive been called 'assertive' too.
> 
> 
> There is an area in Portsmouth, down near the docks and ferry terminals, that everyone in the city calls The Hard.
> ...


Because that is what it was called in the days of Gunpowder and sailing ships, I've always known it it as Gunwharf Quay, and I used to do business there!!!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> *And as to free speech. Here I would go with some on the left who have argued that the right to free speech should be earned.*
> 
> 
> Sol, this both worries and intrigues me. Who decides the criteria by which this right to 'free speech' (which doesn't exist as I pointed out in my last post) should be bestowed?
> ...


I'm working as I write these posts and cant keep up! 

As you have stated (in your post I still have to answer!), there are lawful means in place to inhibit certain expressions of so called free speech.
And these means have been used more extensively in the UK over the last few years (sometimes I may add, to the wrong effect).

However....
There are those who have the power to use any means at their disposal in an attempt to enforce their views on others.
(and here I will say something that I may later regret....)
A large proportion of UK citizens are not that politically aware, or politically interested, and will take anything given to them as 'truth' if it suits them to do so.
Others are, quite frankly, gullible.

I doesn't matter whether we are talking about a White community, or a Black or Asian community, or one based primarily on religion. 
People _can _be led by rabble rousers, especially in times of crisis, or by a writer in their favourite newspaper, or even by some idiot down their local pub.

Rich or poor, there are some people who should not be allowed even the slightest chance to influence others.
(But now you will say that I am coming across as some kind of Eastern Bloc totalitarian, so I'll stop there  )


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

country boy said:


> Because that is what it was called in the days of Gunpowder and sailing ships, I've always known it it as Gunwharf Quay, and I used to do business there!!!


Did you live there though?
That's the difference.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> And what's wrong with seeing non-Christians as different from Christians -or Jews, or Muslims or pagans for that matter? What is wrong with difference? I thought you shared my views on value-pluralism Vive les differences...


Ok... a bit more for now...
There is nothing wrong with accepting differences between peoples, religions and cultures. I certainly didn't intend anyone to think that I thought there was!

It is the definition of oneself and one's particular culture, religion, race, what have you, as _superior_ and _the only acceptable way_ that I object to.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> Did you live there though?
> That's the difference.


No...although it felt like it sometimes.
The town where I worked full time had" Powderhouse Quay"...now do you know where that is?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> *
> You don't lose your right to lawful expression when you get your first £1 million and neither should you. Were that the case, Tony Benn would be silenced as would David Cameron.*


*

and bearing in mind those two, would that be a bad or a good thing>?*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> I'm working as I write these posts and cant keep up!
> 
> As you have stated (in your post I still have to answer!), there are lawful means in place to inhibit certain expressions of so called free speech.
> And these means have been used more extensively in the UK over the last few years (sometimes I may add, to the wrong effect).
> ...


You resemble an Eastern bloc totalitarian as much as I resemble Katie Price, Sol
We agree on basics...and probably on more. As I often say, a bottle on a table between us...or two ..or...

What you say about the UK public's awareness of political issues is sadly true. It's not ignorance, it's lack of interest. But as I said before, that's not surprising, seeing that most people view politics as something done 'to' them. 
Many people, realising that morality and raison d'etat nearly always conflict and the latter wins, turn away in disgust.
How far the people should or can influence government in these times of complicated domestic and international affairs is another topic which frankly is beyond me.
My view on 'speech restriction' is simple: speech should be governed by laws restricting libellous, slanderous speech or speech likely to incite to hatred and violence and by basic good manners and consideration for others.
So it's OK imo to say that gays are sinful, disgusting, will burn in hell, are a threat to society as we know it (I wish) etc. but not acceptable to add: therefore they should be discriminated against or physically harmed in any way.
I think that should be a general principle.
Now that kind of law should be sufficient to deal with the kind of rabble-rousers you refer to without curtailing a basic albeit restricted freedom: to express our views, whether brilliant or bo$$ocks.
Precisely because there is public ignorance and apathy about politics it is important to remind ourselves that in the UK system our elected MPs are representatives not delegates. Hopefully they are sensible, wise, balanced people with wide experience and knowledge of the communities they serve.
As I wrote that sentence I thought back to all the MPs and Ministers I got to know.

Incidentally, my exasperation with the hard left, the Trots and other 'infantile disorders' stems from the fact that throughout my political life I have had close dealings with these people, who make noise out of all proportion to their numbers.
When I was in the CP I was 'instructed' to join the NUT to fight the Trots who had taken over the local North London NUT Branch. Then in the Labour Party we had to deal with entryism from assorted Trot groups such as Revolutionary Socialist Group, International Marxist Group, International Socialists and of course....Militant. Then at TUC level I came across them on Committees I sat on.
The members of these groups were not like 'normal' people, although anyone, myself included, who gets so involved in politics of any kind isn't 'normal' in the sense of being like most people. These people have an agenda, a very narrow one. They are the people who will prolong meetings until everyone sane has gone home...then they seize the opportunity to pass some impossible motion, obliging commitment to some ludicrous and pointless action.
These people are, frankly, pests. They have no real political support in the wider community, they speak to committees rather than communities and their often violent taking over of peaceful protests repels the general public. They serve only to damage the mainstream left and strengthen reaction...which is their aim.
Kinnock put it neatly when he attacked Militant Tendency : 'You can't play politics with people's jobs and lives'.

Both hard right and hard left share this aim of 'creative destruction'. They stem from the same philosophical root..German Romanticism.
Many apostles of neo-liberalism in the US were formerly involved in Trotskyite organisations. It's easy to switch, just as many Communists become Catholics. 
Same temple, different God.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Ok... a bit more for now...
> There is nothing wrong with accepting differences between peoples, religions and cultures. I certainly didn't intend anyone to think that I thought there was!
> 
> It is the definition of oneself and one's particular culture, religion, race, what have you, as _superior_ and _the only acceptable way_ that I object to.


I am a believer in cultural/value pluralism, yes, which is not the same as cultural relativism.
But I reserve the right to find some cultural practices within cultures including my own distasteful or downright wrong.

Some cultures are 'superior' to others, frankly, at least in some aspects. There are sub-cultures within 'parent' cultures which have, to take one example, features such as fgm which I find barbaric.

There can never be 'the only acceptable way'.

I think that we should rehabilitate 'tolerance'. Tolerance permits one to disapprove of something e.g. homosexuality but to leave homosexuals in peace and free from all types of discrimination. 
But that wasn't enough for some of the people I worked with. They wanted 'full equality of esteem'....being 'tolerated' wasn't good enough. They wanted every person to have one 'approved' view of being gay.
You can't and shouldn't do that.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Precisely because there is public ignorance and apathy about politics it is important to remind ourselves that in the UK system our elected MPs are representatives not delegates.  Hopefully they are sensible, wise, balanced people with wide experience and knowledge of the communities they serve.
> As I wrote that sentence I thought back to all the MPs and Ministers I got to know.


In my experience most people who go into politics or other public representation bodies do so for peronal self-interest, never, or very rarely, for any altruistic reasons. I once silenced an AGM of the Chamber of Commerce by answering (to the embarrassment/exasperation of certain members of the Board of Management when from the floor, I answered someone else's question about joining the Chamber "What do I get out of it?" My reply was that "It is not what *you* can get out of it but what you can put into it. It is not about self-interest it is about what is the best for the community. Building a stronger local economy means that not only you benefit but so does the whole town." This understandably earned rounds of applause and I was promptly voted onto the BoM. It made me the permanent enemy of the Chairman whom I managed to get rid of over the next year (he had tried to run the Chamber and utilise its meagre resources for his own benefit for far too long - it was great in Board meetings to see his [formerly] strongest supporters disagree with him and no longer toe his party line) I did have help from the Chief Exec (not an elected member) who could not take part on Board Meetings other than as a provider of facts and information but he would prime me up before the meeting about various things that had been going on and needed to be brought out into the open.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> In my experience most people who go into politics or other public representation bodies do so for peronal self-interest, never, or very rarely, for any altruistic reasons. I
> QUOTE)
> 
> I can agree with that, Baldy. Maybe I've been very lucky but I have never come across anyone like that.
> ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I know they're there, though...And I think it's much worse now than before Thatcher.
> Think back to the politicians of the sixties and seventies.....Wilson, Healey, Barbara Castle, Callaghan, Heath, Patten.....you could and often did disagree with them but they knew their public. They were giants compared to today's pygmies (probably a non-pc term...vertically-challenged indigenous peoples??)
> 
> Barbara was fabulous. Once asked, when about to preside over a meeting, if she would prefer to be called 'Chairman' or 'Chairperson' she replied: 'You can call me what you like, just understand that I'm in charge of this bloody meeting'.
> ...


Everything is much worse than before MT - she indirectly pushed self-interest and that of cronies with such a strong hand that it has become the way of life of the "Eton" set. I don't begrudge Harold (W this not M) his gannex raincoats because his priorities were what is "best for the country" which is the way it should be.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

country boy said:


> No...although it felt like it sometimes.


Lol!



country boy said:


> The town where I worked full time had" Powderhouse Quay"...now do you know where that is?


Poole . Or at least Google Search puts that at the top of page one .
(incidentally, your post is at number two  ).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

country boy said:


> No...although it felt like it sometimes.
> The town where I worked full time had" Powderhouse Quay"...now do you know where that is?


I grew up near Poole. In those days it was small, quiet, quaint. There was a rough pub on the quay called 'The Jolly Sailor'. We used to go there a lot....It was daring, in those days.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Everything is much worse than before MT -


There's intelligent discussion from the likes of Solwriter and Mary ... and then there's this


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

As I agree with everything you have said to me in a more recent post, I'll go back to tackling the one I didn't answer in full. 


mrypg9 said:


> _I said...._
> *But in my humble opinion, this does not mean that we should be falling for the idea that health and welfare cuts are good.
> When coupled with the perceived 'problems of immigration' and 'immigrants coming here to get benefits, etc, etc,...' as promoted in the right wing press, this simply muddies the issue and leaves us open to agreeing with ill-thought-out and hasty legislation which will benefit no one*.
> 
> ...


Ok....
Sometimes you pick me up on words I use in forum posts which I should have rewritten (had I not been rushing to finish!).

'good' - I should have said 'acceptable'.
And the reason I brought this subject up is that you only have to listen to people talking (on the bus, in the pub, etc) or read their comments on forums, at the bottom of articles, etc, to realise that there are many who, whilst wanting to keep the welfare state, believe, either that the money is being spent in the wrong places, or that those who do not deserve help are benefiting from it.

Misconceptions about 'immigrants coming here and sponging off the benefits and health system', adds fuel to the fire.

Couple this with the perception that 'only lazy people are on benefits', and you open up an agenda where Government cuts to essential services are perceived to be more acceptable than they were before.

This 'blame the claimant' culture takes our minds away from the fact that there is another way to save money - finding new ways to prevent tax avoidance, particularly at the higher end of the scale (which it seems 'we' sometimes applaud for some strange reason).

So no, of course a Government should not be restrained by what is published in the Daily Mail, but it should be countering these misconceptions more vociferously, rather than covertly assenting to this way of thinking, because it suits them to do so.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> There's intelligent discussion from the likes of Solwriter and Mary ... and then there's this


I'll put that comment down to your age or lack of it!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> As I agree with everything you have said to me in a more recent post, I'll go back to tackling the one I didn't answer in full.
> 
> 
> Ok....
> ...


I read somewhere that if all the tax evaders and avoiders paid what they should we wouldn't be in such dire straits...can this be true, I wonder?
OH, who stopped running her business in her early fifties and lived off our savings, no other income, was pestered for three years by HMRC who could not understand this simple fact: she earned nothing, therefore should pay no tax. They fined her, threatened her...and were eventually forced by sheer weight of evidence to climb down.no apology.

What a waste of time and effort. Better spent on pursuing the wealthy duckers and divers. (Deliberate typo there)

I actually think that work is good for people! If instead of giving people benefits, why not offer some useful work in return? Having work gives pride, self-respect, includes you in a community. There is work that needs doing: where are the park wardens, concierges, bus conductors, gardeners and so on who fifty or so years ago kept our streets clean and, equally importantly, helped maintain peace and order in our towns and cities? If there is street crime, burglaries etc. in an area...why not hire more community police?

It was sadly easy to spot when some families of students I taught lost their breadwinner. When I say 'standards fell' I'm not being snobbish. After all, why get up when there's nothing to do? 

Making people work for benefits may sound like forced labour but that wouldn't be so. They would be working, contributing and if paid reasonably would be paying taxes and spending in the wider economy. Why not have a kind of national 'public service' for unemployed young people? When socialism was scrapped in the CR, young people had the choice of doing three years military service or working in hospitals, libraries, homes for the elderly and similar work.

I was brought up along the 'poor but honest' lines. Being 'respectable' was of the utmost importance. Having a purposeful activity even in retirement was de rigeur. When my granddad retired from his job driving a horse and cart for the council he spent most of the day in our garden which was like the Chelsea Flower Show and at his allotment where he grew every vegetable possible in Dorset. 

Sometimes I feel so sorry for young people today. I remember the day my mum got me my first library book - I must have been five or six. It had a yellowy-orange cardboard cover and was about 'little creatures'.
Many young people nowadays probably look back on the first pair of Air-Nikes they were given (or shoplifted).


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Sometimes I feel so sorry for young people today. I remember the day my mum got me my first library book - I must have been five or six. It had a yellowy-orange cardboard cover and was about 'little creatures'.
> Many young people nowadays probably look back on the first pair of Air-Nikes they were given (or shoplifted).


Or their first Xbox or PS3 

Actually that doesn't have to be bad.
My grandson had difficulty reading - he had the capacity to do so, but he would not keep still long enough to learn! 
The only time he kept still was when playing on his PS3.
One day he asked me to read the instructions of a new game to him.
I said, 'but if you could read the instructions wouldn't you be able to play the game so much better?'.
He has read from that day since and is now top of his class. He even enjoys reading books!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I actually think that work is good for people! If instead of giving people benefits, why not offer some useful work in return? Having work gives pride, self-respect, includes you in a community. There is work that needs doing: where are the park wardens, concierges, bus conductors, gardeners and so on who fifty or so years ago kept our streets clean and, equally importantly, helped maintain peace and order in our towns and cities? If there is street crime, burglaries etc. in an area...why not hire more community police?
> 
> It was sadly easy to spot when some families of students I taught lost their breadwinner. When I say 'standards fell' I'm not being snobbish. After all, why get up when there's nothing to do?
> 
> Making people work for benefits may sound like forced labour but that wouldn't be so. They would be working, contributing and if paid reasonably would be paying taxes and spending in the wider economy. Why not have a kind of national 'public service' for unemployed young people? When socialism was scrapped in the CR, young people had the choice of doing three years military service or working in hospitals, libraries, homes for the elderly and similar work.


While I agree with your sentiments (and would be totally lost if I had no work to do myself), I fear that making people work for their benefits is another way that they _may_ be exploited.
I remember the recent uproar when JSA claimants were going to be working for Tescos as shelf fillers and the like.
Those looking for work at Tescos were aggrieved that claimants would be taking their jobs.
Claimants were aggrieved because they would be expected to work for the princely sum of 67.50 per week in a job which usually commanded at least the minimum wage.
Everyone appeared to agree that Tesco would be making money at the expense of the unemployed.

So it didn't work.

But having said that, I personally know people on benefits who would love to work rather than sit at home all day. For example, a friend of mine in the UK would love to help out in a charity shop, another applied to a dog charity to be a walker, another was willing to work for nothing in a computer sales shop to gain the experience.
All of these were unable to do so, because had they carried out their plans they were told this would have effectively classed them as 'unavailable for work' and they would have lost their benefits.
Total madness!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Just read this news from the UK:

Visa branded 'cynical' as it bans rival cards from the Olympics | This is Money



> Olympics sponsor Visa has been accused of exploiting spectators by effectively banning the use of rival cards at Games venues. It is ordering the closure of all cashpoints which accept Mastercard or American Express.
> Non-Visa customers will not even be able to use their cards to pay for goods at checkouts. The card giant will disable 27 LINK machines inside venues and replace them with just eight Visa-only cashpoints.


This throws up so many things to get outraged about I just don't know where to start. But the saddest thing is that the good people of GB seem prepared to sit back and let them get away with it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> While I agree with your sentiments (and would be totally lost if I had no work to do myself), I fear that making people work for their benefits is another way that they _may_ be exploited.
> I remember the recent uproar when JSA claimants were going to be working for Tescos as shelf fillers and the like.
> Those looking for work at Tescos were aggrieved that claimants would be taking their jobs.
> Claimants were aggrieved because they would be expected to work for the princely sum of 67.50 per week in a job which usually commanded at least the minimum wage.
> ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But the principle of having everyone who can work in work is imo an important and valuable one.


But you would still have the hardcore of those who have been brought up within thr benefits culture and don't want to work. The big danger is if they are then forced into work they become disruptive and get sacked so back on the dole.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But you would still have the hardcore of those who have been brought up within thr benefits culture and don't want to work. The big danger is if they are then forced into work they become disruptive and get sacked so back on the dole.


Indeed. We've had experience of young people like that in our companies.
One of our apprentices was caught smoking marijuana whilst helping with an important repair on a HGV. We of course sacked him - his father came in and caused a disturbance. He couldn't see what he had done wrong.
Another simply sat on a chair in the canteen, did the jobs he was asked to do poorly and with ill-grace. We sacked him too.

All the schools I've worked in have been in rough, tough, deprived areas. Most of the young people and their families were delightful. But as you rightly say, there is a hard-core of the workshy of all ages. It's hard-working lower-paid people who most resent the scroungers. 

I don't know what you can do with people like that. In the socialist countries they would of course never have been allowed that kind of behaviour - they would have been charged with parasitism.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Indeed. We've had experience of young people like that in our companies.
> One of our apprentices was caught smoking marijuana whilst helping with an important repair on a HGV. We of course sacked him - his father came in and caused a disturbance. He couldn't see what he had done wrong.
> Another simply sat on a chair in the canteen, did the jobs he was asked to do poorly and with ill-grace. We sacked him too.
> 
> ...


" It's hard-working lower-paid people who most resent the scroungers. " Yes I agree 100% with that, I resented the idle barstewards. 

Perhaps conscription is the way, not necessarily to go to fight because that can turn some of the i.b.s into vicious i.b.s but to carry out community work including some of the Local Authority work which is so often poorly done at far greater cost than is realistic (another of MT's bright ideas)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> " It's hard-working lower-paid people who most resent the scroungers. " Yes I agree 100% with that, I resented the idle barstewards.
> 
> Perhaps conscription is the way, not necessarily to go to fight because that can turn some of the i.b.s into vicious i.b.s but to carry out community work including some of the Local Authority work which is so often poorly done at far greater cost than is realistic (another of MT's bright ideas)


The problem is that most of these ibs are slippery and will always find a way to not do anything but hold their hands out for more pay outs! They all seem to come from generations of people like this and its now ingrained in their psyche to simply know how to avoid doing anything of use other than to complain that their lives are boring. They do nothing at all with their lives, so they get bored and dont want to do anything accept cause trouble and expect us workers to finance them. I'm totally enraged by the attitude I seem to be surrounded by in the UK.

Tonight at work we had a gang of shoplifters in. I followed em around, making sure that they didnt take anything and eventually told them to leave. Once outside, they suddenly had a rather fierce looking dog with them, who they were telling to attack me. I was in the shop and this dog was snarling and growling at me from outside. The lads started to shout abuse and spit thru the door at me, one even mooned at me and broke wind at the same time - its a good job I have a strong stomach lol!!! I called the police, cos this little gang really were offensive and upsetting other shoppers. The police duly arrived about 2 hours after I phoned them (after the gang had gone) and basically said that there was nothing they could do - they knew who these kids were and if they saw them they'd have a word!!????

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Bring back Maggie I say - she'd sort the ******s out just like she fixed those evil unions and Argies.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> The problem is that most of these ibs are slippery and will always find a way to not do anything but hold their hands out for more pay outs! They all seem to come from generations of people like this and its now ingrained in their psyche to simply know how to avoid doing anything of use other than to complain that their lives are boring. They do nothing at all with their lives, so they get bored and dont want to do anything accept cause trouble and expect us workers to finance them. I'm totally enraged by the attitude I seem to be surrounded by in the UK.
> 
> Tonight at work we had a gang of shoplifters in. I followed em around, making sure that they didnt take anything and eventually told them to leave. Once outside, they suddenly had a rather fierce looking dog with them, who they were telling to attack me. I was in the shop and this dog was snarling and growling at me from outside. The lads started to shout abuse and spit thru the door at me, one even mooned at me and broke wind at the same time - its a good job I have a strong stomach lol!!! I called the police, cos this little gang really were offensive and upsetting other shoppers. The police duly arrived about 2 hours after I phoned them (after the gang had gone) and basically said that there was nothing they could do - they knew who these kids were and if they saw them they'd have a word!!????
> 
> Jo xxx


Sadly, this kind of behaviour is not new. Shopkeepers in the parade of shops where our school was situated faced this kind of harassment on a daily basis. Why the police couldn't arrest those little sods is beyond me.

Of course there are groups of little delinquent scroats in every country and culture in the world. But why, in the liberal-minded UK, with its comprehensive welfare state and army of social work 'professionals', has it come to this, where groups of young yobs can harass, insult and intimidate decent people?

One theory is that 'society' has somehow failed our feral youth. In some ways, that's true. Our culture has become so dumbed-down that we have raised a generation of know-nothing semi-literates who have no respect whatsoever for people or property. But this is a result of conscious decisions taken by individuals in positions of power...the producers, usually highly-educated products of public schools and Oxbridge, of the crass tv programmes, films and other media outlets who make megabucks from pandering to the lowest common denominator.
Over the past forty or so years, 'progressives' have changed the purpose of education from enlightening, instructing and encouraging our children to be fully-integrated adults to one of social engineering in the dubious cause of 'equality'. 
'Authority' has become a dirty word.
But truly, there is no such thing as 'society', as Mrs. T. for once correctly pointed out. 'Society' is an abstraction. There are only men and women and their families...but responsibility has conveniently been shifted away from individuals to 'society'. How easy to blame someone else....the wealthy, the lack of jobs, the Government. 
Whenever we read of some little runt who stands in the dock accused of some heinous crime my first thought is: why are the parents not standing there alongside him/her?
I would like to see a law passed which says that every time a minor is charged with a crime, the parents should also be examined to see if their parenting practices have contributed to their offspring's behaviour. If not, no problem. But if yes, charge them too, with wilful neglect or whatever.

My child, my responsibility. Whose else should it be


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Letting Pikey scum have rights had a good deal to do with the decline IMO.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Letting Pikey scum have rights had a good deal to do with the decline IMO.


I'm not sure what you mean by that expression. To me, it's an offensive racially-charged expression which means 'traveller' or 'gypsy' - although there are few bona fide gypsies in the UK.

What rights do you think these people have had that others don't

If you are talking about welfare cheats, I'd agree. Like tax dodgers of all kinds including VAT-evaders, cash-in-hand types, they should be dealt with severely. They are all parasites, even if they drive Jags and wear Saville Row suits. They steal from me and you, aka the taxpayer.

But surely a more realistic attitude to enforcing the laws we already have and a zero-tolerance policy towards anti-social behaviour would be more effective, don't you think?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Bring back Maggie I say - she'd sort the ******s out just like she fixed those evil unions and Argies.



I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, Simon ..and I know you know I couldn't resist replying..

But seriously, crime and anti-social behaviour rose exponentially in Thatcher's and Major's periods in office.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

I agree with all the aforesaid but don't you feel that a large responsibility must fall on the judiciary. If the police do manage to tick all the boxes and actually get the little scroats to court they get let off on a technicallity or get another "bar" to their ASBO. Magistrates and Judges need to go on a short course of real life IMHO!


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by that expression. To me, it's an offensive racially-charged expression which means 'traveller' or 'gypsy' - although there are few bona fide gypsies in the UK.
> 
> What rights do you think these people have had that others don't
> 
> ...


Yes Traveller / Gypsy / Gypo or Pikey they all come from the same mould & local councils have for decades bent over backwards to not offend their sensitive nature of being allowed to do just what they please, when it pleases them, regardless of who they **** on.
This special treatment was not lost on a generation of youth who were forced to grow up with them & it comes as no surprise (to me at least) that they started to talk like them and act like them.

Yes the authority's will come down severely on those who them deem have not paid their way, even if they are wrong ! (take your OH for instance)
but they will never pursue these scum who have never (and never will) pay into the system from which they take as their right.

Racially charged ?, if you say so.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Yes Traveller / Gypsy / Gypo or Pikey they all come from the same mould & local councils have for decades bent over backwards to not offend their sensitive nature of being allowed to do just what they please, when it pleases them, regardless of who they **** on.
> This special treatment was not lost on a generation of youth who were forced to grow up with them & it comes as no surprise (to me at least) that they started to talk like them and act like them.
> 
> Yes the authority's will come down severely on those who them deem have not paid their way, even if they are wrong ! (take your OH for instance)
> ...


I think you have a case to make which in some respects stands on its own merits. No need to bring race into it. 
You blame travellers, David Starkey blames black youth as poor role models for the young..
Having spent many years teaching 'bad boys' in an almost 100% white English town the young crims and thugs I knew needed no outside role model...just their idle, slobbish, workshy white English parents.
When I was a Councillor, we did have a problem with travellers/gypsies in some of our rural areas. I can assure you that there was no question of 'bending over backwards' or not 'offending' them. We used the law and bailiffs to shift them from their illegal campsites.
Perhaps you can give more details of this 'special treatment' so we can have a clearer idea of what you are referring to?
As for pursuing the 'scum' who don't pay into the system...yes, you are right. They should be pursued.
So can I assume you share my views about people like Sir Philip Green who pays little UK tax although he makes his money here? He uses UK roads and other infrastructure. 
Of course it's easier to pursue the 'little' people....they have no power. 
But we mustn't offend the Great and the Good who cheat the system, must we....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

country boy said:


> I agree with all the aforesaid but don't you feel that a large responsibility must fall on the judiciary. If the police do manage to tick all the boxes and actually get the little scroats to court they get let off on a technicallity or get another "bar" to their ASBO. Magistrates and Judges need to go on a short course of real life IMHO!



Yes. Definitely. Our business premises were broken into and the culprits -ex-pupils of mine - were charged. They were hooked on drugs and had form for breaking into domestic and commercial premises.
The police put them under curfew and burglaries across the town dramatically decreased.
Then they went to court and the magistrates refused to extend the curfew, on the grounds that their 'human rights' would be violated.
Apparently the police had got their own back to some extent by checking at two-hourly intervals throughout the night that these lads were actually at home, thus causing much-deserved inconvenience to the dreadful parents.
As soon as they were released, the incidence of break-ins increased.
That was nearly ten years ago. One of the two lads is dead, OD, the other heading that way, I'm told.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you have a case to make which in some respects stands on its own merits. No need to bring race into it.
> You blame travellers, David Starkey blames black youth as poor role models for the young..
> Having spent many years teaching 'bad boys' in an almost 100% white English town the young crims and thugs I knew needed no outside role model...just their idle, slobbish, workshy white English parents.
> When I was a Councillor, we did have a problem with travellers/gypsies in some of our rural areas. I can assure you that there was no question of 'bending over backwards' or not 'offending' them. We used the law and bailiffs to shift them from their illegal campsites.
> ...


on the subject of role models and those who avoid/evade tax, don't forget the likes of MPs, Councillors, the gentry (some of whom also figure in the previous categories), business men/women who provide excellent role models for the parents of these thugs and get away with "blue murder", then there are the teachers who turn up at school dressed like hippies, unshaven and generally scruffy (they say that the want to be able to communicate on the little horrors' own level - what ever happened to leading by example?).

The whole world is greeted with excellent examples of bad role models - dictators, religious fanatics and their leaders, dishonest politicians at all levels (including Presidents) who get away with crimes that would put the ordinary "Joe Soap" behind bars for a very long-time.

I have always found that leading by example paid dividends. I always worked on the principle never to expect anyone else to do something that I wasn't prepared to do myself and everybody saw me doing it. Such as hand-cranking a set of points that had failed at a busy railway junction in the snow as just one example.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

playamonte said:


> Yes the authority's will come down severely on those who them deem have not paid their way, even if they are wrong ! but they will never pursue these scum who have never (and never will) pay into the system from which they take as their right.


UNLESS they have "privilege" such as politicians, the gentry etc, friends of politicians, the gentry etc, cronies of politicians, the gentry etc, or also went to Eton... most of whom L.M.F.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

I made no mention of race, just Pikey Scum. 


I have made a number of derogatory comments about the landed gentry, in a number of threads about the *robbing shysters* who make & enforce the laws to suit them and their cronies.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> UNLESS they have "privilege" such as politicians, the gentry etc, friends of politicians, the gentry etc, cronies of politicians, the gentry etc, or also went to Eton... most of whom L.M.F.


For sure that goes without saying.


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