# End of Road for ICT People



## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia. 
Australia have totally closed their door for young professionals like me (26). I have a Bachelor's and a Master's degree from a top university in United States in Computer Science. When I first experienced the US immigration system and the long wait to get a green card, I was really frustrated. Then I discovered Australia - the points based system. It appealed to me and I thought it was very fair. Australia, overall, appealed to me - lifestyle, ease of living, close to nature, etc. I have friends there and have visited and really liked it.
I have 65 points and couldn't get any more. I achieved maximum in everything. Scored 89 in PTE. Didn't get any points for a master's degree, which blows my mind. This wasn't even compensated by ACS while deducting experience. So basically, out of the 3 years of experience I have, 2 years when to skills assessment despite having a bachelors and masters in the same field. 
There is no way I can increase my points. Even if I get 5 years of exp, that would still take me to 70 points. Even 75 pointers are not getting an invite now.
I just don't understand why the Govt wants to send ICT people to regional areas. I know regional areas need people to settle down, but why ICT professionals who won't even find a job there. I guess Australian govt is okay with people not working in their nominated occupations. It would be absolutely stupid to assume that someone is making a career as a software developer would move to some suburb in NSW and work at a grocery store (no offense to people who work at grocery stores).

NSW 190 now requires 12 months of NSW experience, VIC 190 last invited ICT people I don't know when. Queensland has 5 years work exp requirement. Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane are the only places with IT jobs.

So basically, it's the end. Australia doesn't want young IT people. Period.


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## cesartse (Feb 16, 2017)

I am in the same boat as you, man. 

I am 28 years old, with a Production Engineering degree. 

I have 30 points for age, 15 for the bachelor and 20 for the PTE. When I got the desired PTE 90 score in March 2018 I thought it was only a matter of wait. But I noticed the points cutoff would not go down and I needed to do something about it. I booked the NAATI test, for which I am still waiting for the results. 
Engineers Australia did not want to validate my 3 years of experience as an Account Manager, so no work experience points. 
I think it is time for us to accept that it is time to make the toughest decision in the process. If we really want this fu**ing visa, we are going to have to live in Australia for some time with a student visa and increase our points mark from there. 
This is the only way I see.


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

ankur31 said:


> Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia.
> Australia have totally closed their door for young professionals like me (26). I have a Bachelor's and a Master's degree from a top university in United States in Computer Science. When I first experienced the US immigration system and the long wait to get a green card, I was really frustrated. Then I discovered Australia - the points based system. It appealed to me and I thought it was very fair. Australia, overall, appealed to me - lifestyle, ease of living, close to nature, etc. I have friends there and have visited and really liked it.
> I have 65 points and couldn't get any more. I achieved maximum in everything. Scored 89 in PTE. Didn't get any points for a master's degree, which blows my mind. This wasn't even compensated by ACS while deducting experience. So basically, out of the 3 years of experience I have, 2 years when to skills assessment despite having a bachelors and masters in the same field.
> There is no way I can increase my points. Even if I get 5 years of exp, that would still take me to 70 points. Even 75 pointers are not getting an invite now.
> ...


Canada works better.? .. Master degree + more points for younger applicant .


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

cesartse said:


> I am in the same boat as you, man.
> 
> I am 28 years old, with a Production Engineering degree.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree. Going in as a student is probably the easiest pathway now. But it's not an option for now since I already have a Master's degree. I don't know what I am going to study now. LOL. Also, taking a break from job for another degree is a big financial burden and also hurts my career. I mean any degree now (in ICT) would be useless for me.


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

OP2 said:


> Canada works better.? .. Master degree + more points for younger applicant .


Yeah I thought about it. Canada's PR is super easy for me right now but Canada's weather is terrible and as I mentioned, I have lots of friends in Australia, which is a big reason I see a future there. I have lived all by myself since past 4 years in US and have been bearing the burden of loneliness. Don't want that to continue.


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## lemxam (Mar 10, 2019)

ankur31 said:


> Yeah I thought about it. Canada's PR is super easy for me right now but Canada's weather is terrible and as I mentioned, I have lots of friends in Australia, which is a big reason I see a future there. I have lived all by myself since past 4 years in US and have been bearing the burden of loneliness. Don't want that to continue.


Being single, you will get 10 extra points in November


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

lemxam said:


> Being single, you will get 10 extra points in November


But would that make any significant difference? I mean all other single people will also get those points.


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## mail2notif (Nov 16, 2018)

lemxam said:


> Being single, you will get 10 extra points in November


In November the average points for 2613 would also increase from 5-10 so that won't help many. Only people sitting at 75 or maybe 70 would get benefit from it. 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk


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## mail2notif (Nov 16, 2018)

ankur31 said:


> Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia.
> 
> Australia have totally closed their door for young professionals like me (26). I have a Bachelor's and a Master's degree from a top university in United States in Computer Science. When I first experienced the US immigration system and the long wait to get a green card, I was really frustrated. Then I discovered Australia - the points based system. It appealed to me and I thought it was very fair. Australia, overall, appealed to me - lifestyle, ease of living, close to nature, etc. I have friends there and have visited and really liked it.
> 
> ...


Overall it's a win win for Australia. People would either move to regional or come as student or company sponsored visa.They would definitely gonna loose some ICT talent to other countries because people would try alternatives like Ireland or Canada. But those both or any other wouldn't have the advantage on Australia due to less job market. So in the end you either end up working at non ICT jobs as chefs/waiters/taxi drivers etc etc by moving to regional if desperate or wait for the time when you have enough points to be shortlisted for the current criteria. 

If you see overall system is designed in that way because as soon you get 15 points for experience your age points would reduced more likely. So NAATI, Australian professional year, study etc are the only options then. Nobody said it would be easier and if you check some posts from seniors you would realize that even getting the invite or visa is not the end of this situation. After landing the struggle to get the job or local experience starts hitting. So it's definitely a multiple year journey. 

P.S: Germany have seems to relaxed their work visa for non Europeans and Japan is also opening the same. But language is one barrier for which many doesn't consider these two. 

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## champion840 (Dec 19, 2018)

ankur31 said:


> Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia.
> 
> Australia have totally closed their door for young professionals like me (26). I have a Bachelor's and a Master's degree from a top university in United States in Computer Science. When I first experienced the US immigration system and the long wait to get a green card, I was really frustrated. Then I discovered Australia - the points based system. It appealed to me and I thought it was very fair. Australia, overall, appealed to me - lifestyle, ease of living, close to nature, etc. I have friends there and have visited and really liked it.
> 
> ...


Basically if people are on shore get mote benefits than its a correct way to do immigration
People off shore must not be ahead of people om shore.
As they are helping economy ready 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

mail2notif said:


> ankur31 said:
> 
> 
> > Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia.
> ...


What do people with ICT background do with a regional Visa , when the quality and quantum of ICT jobs in the Sydney /Melbourne itself is questionable . Moving new immigrants to regional area will neither help the government nor the prospective immigrants . This is a dead on arrival scheme designed to fail the immigrants.


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

OP2 said:


> What do people with ICT background do with a regional Visa , when the quality and quantum of ICT jobs in the Sydney /Melbourne itself is questionable . Moving new immigrants to regional area will neither help the government nor the prospective immigrants . This is a dead on arrival scheme designed to fail the immigrants.


If an applicants jumps in a well with his eyes open, how much can the government prevent it
Applicants are not children who can’t differentiate between good and bad

I could have taken my Australian PR several years back, but I chose not to apply until I was transferred to Australia 


Cheers


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## kamskans (Jun 13, 2019)

Asking ICT folks to move to regional area when there aren't enough jobs there doesn't seem good policy. Perhaps we are missing something.

Sure you are free to criticise those who risk it. But those criticising this policy also seem to be having reason

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## sidharth_j (Oct 4, 2018)

ankur31 said:


> Just my 2 cents on the current state of ICT people (Software Engineers) applying from outside of Australia.
> Australia have totally closed their door for young professionals like me (26). I have a Bachelor's and a Master's degree from a top university in United States in Computer Science. When I first experienced the US immigration system and the long wait to get a green card, I was really frustrated. Then I discovered Australia - the points based system. It appealed to me and I thought it was very fair. Australia, overall, appealed to me - lifestyle, ease of living, close to nature, etc. I have friends there and have visited and really liked it.
> I have 65 points and couldn't get any more. I achieved maximum in everything. Scored 89 in PTE. Didn't get any points for a master's degree, which blows my mind. This wasn't even compensated by ACS while deducting experience. So basically, out of the 3 years of experience I have, 2 years when to skills assessment despite having a bachelors and masters in the same field.
> There is no way I can increase my points. Even if I get 5 years of exp, that would still take me to 70 points. Even 75 pointers are not getting an invite now.
> ...


In fact, you are better off migrating to Canada than coming to OZ in the current situation.
For one, the OZ economy is tottering with the over dependence on China. Retail industry growth was stagnant. The same is the case for real-estate. In the short term (at least the next 3 years) OZ are going to be in trouble unless they devalue their Dollar to help with exports to the US and North America.

There is heavy competition for ICT jobs in Melbourne and Sydney. For example, if you look at the posts for SAP Cloud Platform on LinkedIn (which is a new service offering from SAP btw), you will find for each position at least 10 applicants. Now this is something specific. If you were to look at something a bit more broader like Project Manager or Business Analyst, then each position will have anything between 30-75 applicants easily if it was in Sydney or Melbourne.

Now, it is not entirely true that there aren't ICT jobs in the regional areas. Mildura, Dubbo, Port Hedland are all known for reasonable manufacturing and agricultural industries and I do see requirements for BAs and Program Managers there and you don't see many applicants to these places. These are small towns but with decent quality of life. But the jobs are few and far between and you might need to wait a long while for something to materialise.

The story of graduates is even worse. I know several young graduates that have just passed out of RMIT that are without a job in their field of study. They are mainly making ends meet in Hospo or Retail (shelf stackers, I mean).

Net Net, I would advise against trying Australia unless you have serious IT skills which are truly in short supply here (think AWS, Machine Learning, R for Data Science). If not, try Canada which is seriously ramping up immigrant intake - but once again, this is the election year in Canada and Trudeau won't win for sure. The next govt will be more hardline and will make immigration difficult.

Regards,
Sid


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## h261311 (Apr 12, 2019)

sidharth_j said:


> In fact, you are better off migrating to Canada than coming to OZ in the current situation.
> 
> For one, the OZ economy is tottering with the over dependence on China. Retail industry growth was stagnant. The same is the case for real-estate. In the short term (at least the next 3 years) OZ are going to be in trouble unless they devalue their Dollar to help with exports to the US and North America.
> 
> ...


This hits home on many levels. Having graduated from G8 University, one year of local experience and 75 points, I had to head back unfortunately. But yeah, only if someone were to tell me the harsh truth of Australian economy, housing bubble, over crowded metro cities and milking of international students, oz would never have been an option from the get-go. 

The points system is only going to get complicated further and there's no glimmer of hope in this direction. 

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## malithloki (Aug 30, 2016)

True story. I think applies for 263111 Sys and network people as well. They are clearing 80 backlogs lst month and now there is a enough 75's to fill out(considering new 75's and 80's will join each month) till this FY ends as well. And I thought it was my big break when I got my 20 for english and an extra 5 for experience. 

Kinda lame I guess. Gonna try for Canada.


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## mukeshsharma (Mar 16, 2013)

mate , the other problem government is facing when software enggnrs driving uber . the economy shiring and i guess its a job crunch time . its even tough for ABAP developers to find a 55$ / hour job on contract . sad but real


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## Vladroid (Oct 11, 2018)

mail2notif said:


> Overall it's a win win for Australia. People would either move to regional or come as student or company sponsored visa.They would definitely gonna loose some ICT talent to other countries because people would try alternatives like Ireland or Canada. But those both or any other wouldn't have the advantage on Australia due to less job market. So in the end you either end up working at non ICT jobs as chefs/waiters/taxi drivers etc etc by moving to regional if desperate or wait for the time when you have enough points to be shortlisted for the current criteria.
> 
> If you see overall system is designed in that way because as soon you get 15 points for experience your age points would reduced more likely. So NAATI, Australian professional year, study etc are the only options then. Nobody said it would be easier and if you check some posts from seniors you would realize that even getting the invite or visa is not the end of this situation. After landing the struggle to get the job or local experience starts hitting. So it's definitely a multiple year journey.
> 
> ...


lol yeah no, trust me, Germany is NOT a good place to live. I would know, I've lived there my whole life. Whole country is going downhill, there's no future there, and most people are extremely unfriendly and look downright depressed.


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

malithloki said:


> True story. I think applies for 263111 Sys and network people as well. They are clearing 80 backlogs lst month and now there is a enough 75's to fill out(considering new 75's and 80's will join each month) till this FY ends as well. And I thought it was my big break when I got my 20 for english and an extra 5 for experience.
> 
> Kinda lame I guess. Gonna try for Canada.


Totally. Even if the situation changes drastically right now, like they increase number of invites or something like that, I am pretty sure it would still take a huge amount of time for 65 pointers to get an invite, maybe 2 years, because of the backlog.

Gone are those days when you had a 20 in English and a skills assessment and you would get an invite right away.


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

mukeshsharma said:


> mate , the other problem government is facing when software enggnrs driving uber . the economy shiring and i guess its a job crunch time . its even tough for ABAP developers to find a 55$ / hour job on contract . sad but real


That's again scary. My current job in US pays me well and I am not even expecting a similar or higher salary if I move to Australia. The only advantage I see is that you have unlimited time to find a job. Completely opposite here in the US, where my visa has a condition that I can't be unemployed for more than 90 days in total. Also, I can't do odd jobs while trying to find a job. Not mention the 10-15 year wait to get a green card. Don't see its worth.


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

ankur31 said:


> mukeshsharma said:
> 
> 
> > mate , the other problem government is facing when software enggnrs driving uber . the economy shiring and i guess its a job crunch time . its even tough for ABAP developers to find a 55$ / hour job on contract . sad but real
> ...


People in India these days get paid more than the Australia. 50 lakh + (100k AuD) in India is quite common for those working in product companies with 10+ years of experience.


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## ankur31 (Aug 20, 2018)

OP2 said:


> People in India these days get paid more than the Australia. 50 lakh + (100k AuD) in India is quite common for those working in product companies with 10+ years of experience.


I agree that in all this hustle to get green cards, people totally ignored India. If they had put this much of effort in India, they would easily be living lavish lives. I have been in the US for 4 years and still believe the quality of life (for me) was better in India. When I compare quality of life, I include psychological stuff like visa stresses and lack of friends.


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## etadaking (Jun 18, 2019)

OP2 said:


> People in India these days get paid more than the Australia. 50 lakh + (100k AuD) in India is quite common for those working in product companies with 10+ years of experience.


You're kidding, right? 100k AUD is quite common for graduates after 3-4 years in Australia. I graduated 2 years ago and still can earn more than that.


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

etadaking said:


> OP2 said:
> 
> 
> > People in India these days get paid more than the Australia. 50 lakh + (100k AuD) in India is quite common for those working in product companies with 10+ years of experience.
> ...


You are missing many points , the tax rate in Au is higher than India. The cost of living is atleast 3x if not more than India. Somebody earning 100K AUD ( in rupees) in India will be able to save and spend a lot more than somebody who is earning 100K AuD in Australia.


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## etadaking (Jun 18, 2019)

OP2 said:


> You are missing many points , the tax rate in Au is higher than India. The cost of living is atleast 3x if not more than India. Somebody earning 100K AUD ( in rupees) in India will be able to save and spend a lot more than somebody who is earning 100K AuD in Australia.


You're right about comparing people earning the same amount (100k +). However, you were saying "People in India get paid more than in Australia." And then you also compare people having 10 years + experience earning 100k in India.
People with that experience (if they're really good) can earn double or triple the number, might end up paying more for tax and living expenses, but would 100% end up having much more left after that, don't they?


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

etadaking said:


> OP2 said:
> 
> 
> > You are missing many points , the tax rate in Au is higher than India. The cost of living is atleast 3x if not more than India. Somebody earning 100K AUD ( in rupees) in India will be able to save and spend a lot more than somebody who is earning 100K AuD in Australia.
> ...


All I am saying is an individual earning 100k in India will be able to add more to his/her networth than somebody earning the same in Australia . Also PPP of rupee is far higher than that of AUD, meaning more goods and services can be availed than what AUD can do in Australia


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## mailgrvc (Dec 28, 2015)

OP2 said:


> All I am saying is an individual earning 100k in India will be able to add more to his/her networth than somebody earning the same in Australia . Also PPP of rupee is far higher than that of AUD, meaning more goods and services can be availed than what AUD can do in Australia


I kind of disagree to the statement that earning a higher amount is directly related to the quality of life. There are other aspects to it, clean air, good education good infrastructure. I have been living in the biggest IT capital of India for the last two years and despite earning triple of what I used to get 10 years ago isn't actually improving the quality of life. The air is getting more contaminated each day, education is becoming more of a business and money-making machine, one has to spend 2 to 3 hours easily in traffic every day. The only difference is 5 years back I was stuck in a hatchback, now in a million rupee sedan, that's it. We are confined in our apartments and going out every time is a pain. Do not make me start on road rage and crimes every day. With all the money earned and sitting in banks and savings, I am not sure how that is improving the quality of life here.

But in the end, to each his own. Everybody has different priorities in life. Some value money, other value the place, people and culture.


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## mailgrvc (Dec 28, 2015)

OP2 said:


> All I am saying is an individual earning 100k in India will be able to add more to his/her networth than somebody earning the same in Australia . Also PPP of rupee is far higher than that of AUD, meaning more goods and services can be availed than what AUD can do in Australia





OP2 said:


> People in India these days get paid more than the Australia. 50 lakh + (100k AuD) in India is quite common for those working in product companies with 10+ years of experience.


Are you kidding? I hardly see in my circle with 10 years of experience earning the equivalent to 100K AUD. Unless you are from a premier institute and likes of IIT's and IIM's and started working with big players straight from the college. I can count such folks on my fingers.


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

I was just talking about money aspect. Never commented on quality of life which is deteriorating by the day because of poor/lack of infrastructure.


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## OP2 (May 9, 2019)

mailgrvc said:


> OP2 said:
> 
> 
> > All I am saying is an individual earning 100k in India will be able to add more to his/her networth than somebody earning the same in Australia . Also PPP of rupee is far higher than that of AUD, meaning more goods and services can be availed than what AUD can do in Australia
> ...


Most IT product /MNCs and even a few home grown startups pay 50 lakhs for 10+ years , but yeah for most of those in IT services like Infy , TCS, Accenture etc the pay may not be as high


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## AsterixArmorica (Apr 2, 2018)

OP2 said:


> You are missing many points , the tax rate in Au is higher than India. The cost of living is atleast 3x if not more than India. Somebody earning 100K AUD ( in rupees) in India will be able to save and spend a lot more than somebody who is earning 100K AuD in Australia.


If we talk about income tax rate. India taxes more or less same as Australia. In fact tax rate is higher in India.

India taxes 31.2% for salary above IND 10 Lakhs or AUD 20K. Australia tax rate is 19%. If you cross INR 50 Lakh or AUD 100K, tax rate is 34.32%. So hardly different from Australian rate of 37%. Only when you cross AUD 180K Australia charges 45%.


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## AsterixArmorica (Apr 2, 2018)

Considering the cost of living, at least in IT job market, Australia is poor paying job market compared to India. The reason is simple, Australia IT industry simply do not have the top tier product companies that pay big bucks in India. 

Quality of life is another matter. Say, you simply can't buy clean air. Or well, buy-out the messed up and commercialised education systems that exists in India.




OP2 said:


> Most IT product /MNCs and even a few home grown startups pay 50 lakhs for 10+ years , but yeah for most of those in IT services like Infy , TCS, Accenture etc the pay may not be as high


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## sidharth_j (Oct 4, 2018)

*tight situation even in regional OZ for ICT*

I had posted last week in the forum about job openings in regional australia for ICT applicants. There was one such posting I was tracking and I got the statistics today.

49 applicants for a microsoft dynamics position in Dubbo, NSW.
This is true blue regional OZ - a town of not more than 30K people and at least 300 kms west of Sydney.
49!!!

Think about that.
Scary is not the word.


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## Arvind092 (Dec 2, 2020)

i went thru this entire thread.
And although the last time i touched computer programming was in my first year engineering...
i completely relate to this thread.
I am a marine engineer with mechanical engineering background.Luckily i can get a job even in remote antartica as long as it has a functional air strip..

But i still feel Studying in Australia would be a waste of time(and money).....They dont want us..They just want the money to fund their universities..


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## Arvind092 (Dec 2, 2020)

ankur31 said:


> That's again scary. My current job in US pays me well and I am not even expecting a similar or higher salary if I move to Australia. The only advantage I see is that you have unlimited time to find a job. Completely opposite here in the US, where my visa has a condition that I can't be unemployed for more than 90 days in total. Also, I can't do odd jobs while trying to find a job. Not mention the 10-15 year wait to get a green card. Don't see its worth.


Most of my batch mates who are in USA..
They are trying to ramp up 50 lakhs a year and somehow starting a business back home in India..
Trying to make the most of the visa..until it lasts.


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