# Hypersensitivity?



## PatrickMurtha

Just looking for thoughts here, NOT wanting to start something heated...

Does it strike those of you in this forum that Mexicans, both men and women, both adults and children, tend to be highly emotionally sensitive? I have encountered this very often, is why I am asking. At my school in Culiacan, I realized that I was never observed by a higher-up, and I asked my supervisor about this. She replied that Mexican teachers would fall to pieces in that situation - her take, not mine. A little guidebook I own called "Passport Mexico" states that many Mexican companies do not breathe down their employees' necks, for the same reason. 

I've had students both male and female burst into tears over what I considered very light criticism - and I assure you that I am a nice guy, although I can be direct. I've seen colleagues, service people, and others become highly emotional in stressful situations. I have kvetched in this forum about what I have taken to be a Mexican tendency to avoid confrontation, to pretend that everything is all right, to ignore matters in the hope that they will just go away. The same "Passport Mexico" guidebook refers to the cultural trait of Mexicans pretending to understand what someone is after even when they really do not. One example given is the danger of asking for directions - instead of getting a plain old "I don't know," you might get a bad guess. 

Lately I've had some specific experiences along these lines of avoidance. I am a Banorte customer, and I have been in some specific need of assistance lately; on four separate occasions when I have reached customer service and asked the simple opening question "Habla ingles?", I have had the customer service rep HANG UP ON ME. Today, pursuing the same unresolved issue, I went to a branch in person, asked the question, and was made to wait a full hour before I pressed for an answer and was finally told that the bilingual rep would be showing up in two hours. What was the point of making me wait an hour to tell me that? At Telcel, I was given some bad directions, and had to return to the office the next day. When I was very civilly explaining the situation to the English-speaking rep I had interacted with the day before, he shook his head, walked away without explanation, and would not return. Someone else had to help me. The other day here in Mexico City, I hailed a cab and was waved off - then the cab promptly stopped for a woman 20 feet beyond me. 

It almost seems as if the people in question realize that a cross-lingual, cross-cultural encounter could be stressful and emotionally provoking - therefore they just turn down the possibility of having the encounter. This could help explain the poor service in my local Culiacan sports bar that I wrote about in another thread.

During the year I lived in Korea, I virtually never encountered this sort of avoidance. If someone did not speak English, as was often the case, they bust their butt to find someone who did. Everything was treated with urgency.

The funny part is, I genuinely like Mexico better than Korea, in a lot of ways. But I have learned to keep my cool in situations that are maddening (don't even get me started on the mover who brought my belongings from Culiacan to Mexico City - yikes!). Some situations are exacerbated by linguistic misunderstandings, for sure - but perhaps not all.

I have developed the odd sense that I could reduce almost any Mexican, including burly macho guys, to jelly in a matter of minutes by applying certain sorts of simple pressure. I don't want to do it, I don't want to be that sort of person, but it is a peculiar awareness to have.


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## Isla Verde

An interesting post, Patrick, and I agree with many of your observations, though, fortunately, I haven't had many of the negative experiences you have had. 

One comment for now: _I've had students both male and female burst into tears over what I considered very light criticism - and I assure you that I am a nice guy, although I can be direct._ Being direct is generally a no-no here, no matter how nice a guy you are. A Mexican definition of a "nice guy" would imply that any criticisms or complaints he might want to make would be done indirectly.


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## TundraGreen

PatrickMurtha said:


> Just looking for thoughts here, NOT wanting to start something heated...
> 
> Does it strike those of you in this forum that Mexicans, both men and women, both adults and children, tend to be highly emotionally sensitive? I have encountered this very often, is why I am asking. At my school in Culiacan, I realized that I was never observed by a higher-up, and I asked my supervisor about this. She replied that Mexican teachers would fall to pieces in that situation - her take, not mine. A little guidebook I own called "Passport Mexico" states that many Mexican companies do not breathe down their employees' necks, for the same reason.
> 
> I've had students both male and female burst into tears over what I considered very light criticism - and I assure you that I am a nice guy, although I can be direct. I've seen colleagues, service people, and others become highly emotional in stressful situations. I have kvetched in this forum about what I have taken to be a Mexican tendency to avoid confrontation, to pretend that everything is all right, to ignore matters in the hope that they will just go away. The same "Passport Mexico" guidebook refers to the cultural trait of Mexicans pretending to understand what someone is after even when they really do not. One example given is the danger of asking for directions - instead of getting a plain old "I don't know," you might get a bad guess.
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Lately I've had some specific experiences along these lines of avoidance. I am a Banorte customer, and I have been in some specific need of assistance lately; on four separate occasions when I have reached customer service and asked the simple opening question "Habla ingles?", I have had the customer service rep HANG UP ON ME. Today, pursuing the same unresolved issue, I went to a branch in person, asked the question, and was made to wait a full hour before I pressed for an answer and was finally told that the bilingual rep would be showing up in two hours. What was the point of making me wait an hour to tell me that? At Telcel, I was given some bad directions, and had to return to the office the next day. When I was very civilly explaining the situation to the English-speaking rep I had interacted with the day before, he shook his head, walked away without explanation, and would not return. Someone else had to help me. The other day here in Mexico City, I hailed a cab and was waved off - then the cab promptly stopped for a woman 20 feet beyond me.
> 
> It almost seems as if the people in question realize that a cross-lingual, cross-cultural encounter could be stressful and emotionally provoking - therefore they just turn down the possibility of having the encounter. This could help explain the poor service in my local Culiacan sports bar that I wrote about in another thread.
> 
> During the year I lived in Korea, I virtually never encountered this sort of avoidance. If someone did not speak English, as was often the case, they bust their butt to find someone who did. Everything was treated with urgency.
> 
> The funny part is, I genuinely like Mexico better than Korea, in a lot of ways. But I have learned to keep my cool in situations that are maddening (don't even get me started on the mover who brought my belongings from Culiacan to Mexico City - yikes!). Some situations are exacerbated by linguistic misunderstandings, for sure - but perhaps not all.
> 
> I have developed the odd sense that I could reduce almost any Mexican, including burly macho guys, to jelly in a matter of minutes by applying certain sorts of simple pressure. I don't want to do it, I don't want to be that sort of person, but it is a peculiar awareness to have.


The first half of your comment, I agree with. I have learned to be the same. If I am invited somewhere, don't want to go and have no intention of going, I just say "Thank you, I'll be there". If someone gives me some food that I really don't want, I just say thank you, and pass it on to someone else. It is much easier than explaining or trying to convince someone that you really don't want to do something.

The second half of your comment, I have never experienced (except for buses that pass without stopping, but I see them do that to everyone),


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> An interesting post, Patrick, and I agree with many of your observations, though, fortunately, I haven't had many of the negative experiences you have had.
> 
> One comment for now: _I've had students both male and female burst into tears over what I considered very light criticism - and I assure you that I am a nice guy, although I can be direct._ Being direct is generally a no-no here, no matter how nice a guy you are. A Mexican definition of a "nice guy" would imply that any criticisms or complaints he might want to make would be done indirectly.


I have to come to realize the truth of what you are saying, and I can and have tried to moderate my directness when appropriate. But it is too basic a part of my personality and my pedagogy for me to jettison it entirely. The plus side comes when I talk directly about subjects that my students are not used to hearing talked about that way - in Culiacan, the narco culture was one of those topics (and let me be clear, I taught students whose families were "connected"). Once my students picked up on what I was doing, they became deeply engaged, highly talkative - I don't think the word "thrilled" would be an overstatement. It was something new, and something specifically very attractive to adolescents, who WANT to talk about everything.


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## PatrickMurtha

TundraGreen said:


> The first half of your comment, I agree with. I have learned to be the same. If I am invited somewhere, don't want to go and have no intention of going, I just say "Thank you, I'll be there". If someone gives me some food that I really don't want, I just say thank you, and pass it on to someone else. It is much easier than explaining or trying to convince someone that you really don't want to do something.
> 
> The second half of your comment, I have never experienced (except for buses that pass without stopping, but I see them do that to everyone),


I haven't yet attempted to "go native" in the way that you describe, but it might be worth a try!


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## TundraGreen

PatrickMurtha said:


> I haven't yet attempted to "go native" in the way that you describe, but it might be worth a try!


I have also found that once you know people really well, they can be very direct and so can you. I have had discussions that were extremely open and direct, but it is only with people I have known for a long time and am quite close to.


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## Isla Verde

I've been thinking about the unpleasant (and often puzzling) negative encounters Patrick has had in Mexico in banks and with taxi drivers and was wondering why they haven't happened to me. Could it be because I'm a woman who speaks Spanish well enough that I rarely need to ask for English-speaking employees on the phone or in person? In fact, the opposite recently happened to me: I had to call UPS to arrange to have a package delivered, and the person I was talking to switched to English after we'd been chatting for a minute or so.


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## lhpdiver

Patrick,

Your post brought me back about 25 years when I worked for a very large technology company - where everyone's opinion was important (to a fault). During a meeting I dismissed a 'suggestion' from one of my co-workers (different job functions). That single moment caused me soo much grief that I remember it to this day. That is a 'big' company experience. Around 15 years ago I was working for a smallish technology company and when I made a suggestion during a meeting I was told 'Who cares what you think ?'.

As for your jelly comment - personally I think you are fooling yourself. In the end YOU won't be any better off after ANY significant confrontation. Even if it is just what comes back to haunt you.

Finally - my Spanish is still young - when it comes to banking or any other significant concern - I'd rather make sure everyone truly understood each other...


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> I've been thinking about the unpleasant (and often puzzling) negative encounters Patrick has had in Mexico in banks and with taxi drivers and was wondering why they haven't happened to me. Could it be because I'm a woman who speaks Spanish well enough that I rarely need to ask for English-speaking employees on the phone or in person? In fact, the opposite recently happened to me: I had to call UPS to arrange to have a package delivered, and the person I was talking to switched to English after we'd been chatting for a minute or so.


Oh, I'm sure that's part of it. I intend to switch my banking services from Banorte to Bancomer's Preferred Customers Unit:

BBVA Bancomer: Mexico Banking Services for Foreign Residents & Visitors

_Mexico’s First Bank for Foreign Residents

BBVA Bancomer, through its Preferred Customers' Unit, is the first bank to cater to the special needs of foreign residents and visitors, using not only the English language, but also the same financial language you are accustomed to back home.

Preferred Customer's Unit is a division of BBVA Bancomer, one of the most solid and important financial groups in Mexico, with more than 75 years of experience, and part of BBVA, the international financial conglomerate with more than 35 million clients worldwide in 22 countries.

Our objective is to offer foreigners the service and attention they expect. For this reason, we have implemented several new services designed to make your banking experience a quick, safe and easy process.

By signing up, you will receive English language services and a Preferred Customer Card when acquiring any of our banking and financial products, such as the Bancomer Checking Account, Bancomer Debit Card, Platinum Credit Card, Bancomer Insurance, Bancomer Mutual Funds, and more!

Our specialized branches are located exclusively in cities throughout the Republic of Mexico where there is a high density of foreign residents and visitors.

To learn more about the tailor-made financial products and preferential treatment you'll receive as a BBVA Bancomer Preferred Customer, please visit Bancomer.com/pcu._


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## PatrickMurtha

lhpdiver said:


> Patrick,
> 
> Your post brought me back about 25 years when I worked for a very large technology company - where everyone's opinion was important (to a fault). During a meeting I dismissed a 'suggestion' from one of my co-workers (different job functions). That single moment caused me soo much grief that I remember it to this day. That is a 'big' company experience. Around 15 years ago I was working for a smallish technology company and when I made a suggestion during a meeting I was told 'Who cares what you think ?'.
> 
> As for your jelly comment - personally I think you are fooling yourself. In the end YOU won't be any better off after ANY significant confrontation. Even if it is just what comes back to haunt you.
> 
> Finally - my Spanish is still young - when it comes to banking or any other significant concern - I'd rather make sure everyone truly understood each other...


Good points all. I honestly think - and I know full well that there will be people here who dispute me - that Mexicans instinctively don't care much for Americans. And I'm not saying they don't have good historical reasons for that, but it is very different than the reception Americans can count on in East Asia. 

My best relations in Mexico have been with my students, partly because the student-teacher relationship is promising ground to begin with, and party because many of my highly cosmopolitan students, who have been world travelers and English learners since birth, are thoroughly globalized and (by their own account) somewhat impatient with old school Mexican ways. That IS similar to what I found in Korea, where one college-age girl told me, "If I hear one more time about 'the Korean way,' I'm going to spit."


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## Isla Verde

PatrickMurtha said:


> Good points all. I honestly think - and I know full well that there will be people here who dispute me - that Mexicans instinctively don't care much for Americans. And I'm not saying they don't have good historical reasons for that, but it is very different than the reception Americans can count on in East Asia.


Wow, talk about blanket statements! I haven't found that to be true at all. So either I've been deluding myself, and all the students, ex-students, clients, neighbors, and friends I've made here have just been pretending to like me, or else you and I have different ways of interacting with the Mexicans we come into contact with.


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## PatrickMurtha

Isla Verde said:


> Wow, talk about blanket statements! I haven't found that to be true at all. So either I've been deluding myself, and all the students, ex-students, clients, neighbors, and friends I've made here have just been pretending to like me, or else you and I have different ways of interacting with the Mexicans we come into contact with.


See, I said I'd be disputed. I stand by what I wrote. To what extent it can be attributed to different ways of interacting with Mexicans is a topic of possibly perpetual discussion. No doubt language proficiency could have a LOT to do with it; I would never dispute that. But I do have my time in Korea as a comparison, and I have far less Korean than Spanish, and I would describe the people there as RELENTLESSLY friendly - almost disconcertingly so at times. They are also very proud of their country, and always want to talk to foreigners about it; they check a lot to see what the rest of the world thinks of Korea, and that it is and remains positive.

In my observation, and of course this too is a bit of a "blanket statement" (but generalizations have their uses), Mexicans do not like to talk to foreigners about their country, and they don't want to check what the rest of the world's opinion of Mexico is because they already know it, all too well. My students in Culiacan almost all did semesters abroad, and were very sensitive about this, assuming people's mental reactions to be, "Oh, you're from Mexico? Oh, you poor thing." I encouraged them NOT to be defensive, and to take pride in their home, but it could be hard, they said.

What I think of Mexico and Mexicans is (a) mixed, and (b) a drop in some bucket. What Mexicans think of themselves and their country is HUGE, and apart from some zest around the flag and the singing of the national anthem, I have never picked up a very positive vibe about it. 

I'm not discounting your experiences or your opinion on this. But my take is what it is (always susceptible to adjustment). You have hinted at a gender differential, and I suppose that is plausible. I am a physically imposing male, 6'2", 210 pounds, fairly powerfully built, and although I think I am friendly of aspect, still, I have been told that I look not to be pushed around. Maybe people sometimes stay out of my way because of that. Again though, it didn't seem to matter in Korea, and in that country I was virtually a giant in comparison to Korean men.


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> Wow, talk about blanket statements! I haven't found that to be true at all. So either I've been deluding myself, and all the students, ex-students, clients, neighbors, and friends I've made here have just been pretending to like me, or else you and I have different ways of interacting with the Mexicans we come into contact with.


I agree. Many of my Mexican friends have said that they don't like the US government, but they like Gringos. Lately, I'm beginning to understand this reasoning.


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## coondawg

One thing that I have learned over the years here, it often is difficult to understand the behavior of Mexicans at times. This is a completely different culture from what people NOB are use to seeing. Some is very good, but some is bad, also. Because more than half live in poverty, attitudes toward corruption, laws, police, education. government, quality of work, religion, honesty, racism, family, etc., are different from a lot of NOB experiences. I think it is best (at least for me) to just accept people as they are, keep most criticism to yourself, and enjoy the things you like about living in Mexico. The more Spanish you learn and use, the better your experience will be.


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## terrybahena

Well, I've had a frustrating experience in both the telephone company and the bank.....but had almost identical experiences in the states- recently ha ha it's the nature of the business. 

I try to be quieter and more watchful, because as was stated in this line of posts- I can barely comprehend the situation of so many, the poverty at first overwhelmed me. Then the contradiction of the positive attitude of someone living in a cardboard shack...or someone selling tiny trinkets in the traffic. 
Some people cannot "see" anything "better" in their lives and with acceptance live their lives day to day. Some people fight to get ahead...some succeed some do not. Sometimes I think I like the gov't here better- everyone knows it's corrupt and don't try to say it is not, unlike the US where there is SO much crap being fed to people...and again, some care and some only care about what affects them.

This is a complicated country. Try reading "Labyrinth of Solitude" to understand how some cultural aspects are faced, are resolved within one's self. Yeah I am sounding mixed up, because there are so many things. So many people is this huge country, but I love Mexico, I love the people, and the more I try to not see it thru my blinders, thru my filters, the more I am able to appreciate it. And it keeps on changing...the politics, the technology, opportunities, it's an interesting time to be here eh? ok I'm done.


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## TundraGreen

terrybahena said:


> …
> This is a complicated country. Try reading "Labyrinth of Solitude" to understand how some cultural aspects are faced, are resolved within one's self. Yeah I am sounding mixed up, because there are so many things. So many people is this huge country, but I love Mexico, I love the people, and the more I try to not see it thru my blinders, thru my filters, the more I am able to appreciate it. And it keeps on changing...the politics, the technology, opportunities, it's an interesting time to be here eh? ok I'm done.


I did read Octavio Paz's Labyrinth of Solitude. I found I didn't like it much. While I am sure there was some truth to what he said, it felt like a large collection of stereotypes to me. Maybe his comments are true of most of the people most of the time, but they still felt like generalizations. The volume I read contained some later essays (Return to the Labyrinth and Mexico and the United States) that I found more interesting.


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## ojosazules11

The title of the thread is hypersensitivity. (I thought it was going to be about allergies.)

While you may perceive Mexicans (and I would include most Latin Americans in general) as "hypersensitive", the view from the South looking North would be that those from NOB are "hyposensitive" (under sensitive, unemotional, cold, distant). Which is more "normal" or desirable depends on cultural perspective.

I remember that Diablita posted something on La Chatarreria about an international study on "Positive Emotion Index". The study asked large groups of adults in various countries about the frequency of various positive emotions and experiences they had had the previous day. Of the top 10 countries reporting highest incidence of positive emotions, 9 were in Latin America, several of them countries which have lived or continue to live through very difficult sociopolitical contexts. 

When I read the study, I wondered if the outcome would be similar if asked about negative emotional feelings or experiences. Because in my experience Latin Americans more freely express a wide range of human emotions (at least in the context of family and friends - not necessarily in front of strangers) as opposed to keeping a stiff upper lip.


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## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> I did read Octavio Paz's Labyrinth of Solitude. I found I didn't like it much. While I am sure there was some truth to what he said, it felt like a large collection of stereotypes to me. Maybe his comments are true of most of the people most of the time, but they still felt like generalizations. The volume I read contained some later essays (Return to the Labyrinth and Mexico and the United States) that I found more interesting.


Many years ago when I was younger I had discovered many generalization that seemed to fit many people I had run into. 

Later I meet many more people and found out there are all kinds of people.

Some "Drama Queens", some noticably pretensious ones, some fearful of everyone, some suspicious of everyone, some who didn´t fear anyone, some thoughtful and reflective, some who didn´t think past tommorw, some conservsative, some liberal, some extra smart, some not so smart, some overly insecure, some very secure, some feminne, some brutish, some brash, some introverted and shy, some seflish, some self righteous, some kind, some mean, some generous, some stingy, some petty, some crazy, some real, some phony, some honest, some liars, some users, some takers, some manipulators, some sad, some happy, etc.

Same for every place I have lived, so far.


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## citlali

Some "Mexican traits" can be explain through its history but al in all I thought the book was the biggest intelectual boring piece I have read. I really disliked it and found it extermely tiresome.
Mexico has comes from many different cutlures and is varied.A ll these sterotypes are very tiring and they also reflect the people who come up with them.
My experience of Mexico is very different than that of the op but them I am not an American , speak fluent Spanish and I am fascinated by the differences between the social and economic groups so I look for the differences not the traits that are common and I live in Southern Mexico.It is all in the perspective.

I find that many people I run into are very proud of their culture and most are very patriotic and are proud of their country.
The country is a little skyzo with many people being so proud of their country ´s past and the idea of la raza and so on but many are very ill at ease around the indigenous they came from ad embarrassed about them.
Here in Chiapas the government and the people in the government are alaways bragging about the indigenous cultures but when it comes time to have an exhibition outside of the state with indigenous about indigenous they hire tall and light skinned models in indigenous clothes and when a tn advantures travel conventioncalled" Indigenous Mexico" came to San Cristobal theindigenous street salespeople were forbidden to sell in the street during the 3 day convention...


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## lagoloo

Good points. When you look at the advertising billboards for anything from sexy clothes to housing developments, do you ever see really dark faces? Not likely. enuf said?


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## joaquinx

lagoloo said:


> Good points. When you look at the advertising billboards for anything from sexy clothes to housing developments, do you ever see really dark faces? Not likely. enuf said?


You are talking about Mexico and not the USA, right?


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## Anonimo

Deleted by poster for inattention.


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## Hound Dog

PatrickMurtha said:


> Oh, I'm sure that's part of it. I intend to switch my banking services from Banorte to Bancomer's Preferred Customers Unit:
> 
> BBVA Bancomer: Mexico Banking Services for Foreign Residents & Visitors
> 
> ]Mexico’s First Bank for Foreign Residents
> 
> BBVA Bancomer, through its Preferred Customers' Unit, is the first bank to cater to the special needs of foreign residents and visitors, using not only the English language, but also the same financial language you are accustomed to back home.
> 
> Preferred Customer's Unit is a division of BBVA Bancomer, one of the most solid and important financial groups in Mexico, with more than 75 years of experience, and part of BBVA, the international financial conglomerate with more than 35 million clients worldwide in 22 countries.
> 
> Our objective is to offer foreigners the service and attention they expect. For this reason, we have implemented several new services designed to make your banking experience a quick, safe and easy process.
> 
> By signing up, you will receive English language services and a Preferred Customer Card when acquiring any of our banking and financial products, such as the Bancomer Checking Account, Bancomer Debit Card, Platinum Credit Card, Bancomer Insurance, Bancomer Mutual Funds, and more!
> 
> Our specialized branches are located exclusively in cities throughout the Republic of Mexico where there is a high density of foreign residents and visitors.
> 
> To learn more about the tailor-made financial products and preferential treatment you'll receive as a BBVA Bancomer Preferred Customer, please visit Bancomer.com/pcu.


Patrick: 

I believe Bncomer has scuttled that marketing ploy which, it seems, was at best only marginally successful. I may be wrong so it wouldn´t hurt for you to go by the Culiacan main branch and check.

What´s funny is that we live in Ajijic, Jalisco on Lake Chapala with its large foreign colony of U.S. and Canadian expats and also in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas where you could drop a fragmentation bomb in the center of town and not come close to hitting even one U.S. or Canadian resident as there are so few there although you might hit an Italian resident or two stoking that wood-fired pizza oven or mow down a group of European tourists strolling the Andador with their tour guides. We have been with Bancomer for some 13 years now, long before that "Preferred Customer" program for foreign clients was initiated a few years ago. In Ajijic, if one is so inclined as a foreign client one can await services in a special teller line while Mexican clients wait in a much longer line adjacent thereto. I have never had the nerve to use that line as if my pale skin and inept Spanish conferred certain privileges upon me. Now, in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, preferred customers are defined by such traditional methods as average balances maintained and other bank measures of profitability. Merchants may also use that line but they could not give a hoot if the client is foreign or was born just down the street. If you were booted from the line and protested that you were, by birthright, due access to the preferred customer line - even showing them the preferred customer brochure, it would do you no good as no one there can speak or read English in the first place. 

By the way, my wife, who is French, once protested to me (jokingly) that she was somewhat affronted that "preferred customers" as defined as foreigners, were all presumed to speak and read English and she had never seen this marketing ploy publicized in French. What´s ironic is that there seem to be more European expats in San Cristóbal than English speaking NOBBERS so why not Italian or other language brochures as well.

Good luck.


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## PatrickMurtha

Hound Dog said:


> Patrick:
> 
> I believe Bncomer has scuttled that marketing ploy which, it seems, was at best only marginally successful. I may be wrong so it wouldn´t hurt for you to go by the Culiacan main branch and check.
> 
> What´s funny is that we live in Ajijic, Jalisco on Lake Chapala with its large foreign colony of U.S. and Canadian expats and also in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas where you could drop a fragmentation bomb in the center of town and not come close to hitting even one U.S. or Canadian resident as there are so few there although you might hit an Italian resident or two stoking that wood-fired pizza oven or mow down a group of European tourists strolling the Andador with their tour guides. We have been with Bancomer for some 13 years now, long before that "Preferred Customer" program for foreign clients was initiated a few years ago. In Ajijic, if one is so inclined as a foreign client one can await services in a special teller line while Mexican clients wait in a much longer line adjacent thereto. I have never had the nerve to use that line as if my pale skin and inept Spanish conferred certain privileges upon me. Now, in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, preferred customers are defined by such traditional methods as average balances maintained and other bank measures of profitability. Merchants may also use that line but they could not give a hoot if the client is foreign or was born just down the street. If you were booted from the line and protested that you were, by birthright, due access to the preferred customer line - even showing them the preferred customer brochure, it would do you no good as no one there can speak or read English in the first place.
> 
> By the way, my wife, who is French, once protested to me (jokingly) that she was somewhat affronted that "preferred customers" as defined as foreigners, were all presumed to speak and read English and she had never seen this marketing ploy publicized in French. What´s ironic is that there seem to be more European expats in San Cristóbal than English speaking NOBBERS so why not Italian or other language brochures as well.
> 
> Good luck.


What appealed to me about the Bancomer program is not so much the "preferred customer" designation, but the fact that I could get someone in English on the telephone if I needed to. That may still be the case even if the program has been scuttled. I'll look into it. In Korea, I banked with KEB, Korea Exchange Bank, which had such a program. I could reach customer service in English whenever I needed to, and there were bilingual reps in every branch as a matter of policy.

Even though Banorte has U.S. operations and is affiliated with a bank in Texas, they could give a fig about their English-speaking customers in Mexico. You cannot get an English-speaking rep on the phone - Lord knows I've tried dozens of times (and as I've mentioned, have been cut off on several occasions when I simply asked). I have NEVER encountered an employee in a Banorte branch, in Culiacan or so far in Mexico City, who spoke any English at all. 

So what I'm looking for, special program or no special program, is a Mexican bank that is SENSITIVE to the needs of its international customers and English speakers, and works a little to cultivate that business. 

Why have I developed the sense that more Korean professionals speak passable English than Mexican professionals? This seems counter-intuitive.


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## Hound Dog

_


PatrickMurtha said:



What appealed to me about the Bancomer program is not so much the "preferred customer" designation, but the fact that I could get someone in English on the telephone if I needed to.....

Click to expand...

_That´s a good point, Patrick. I bank with Bancomer in Ajijic and Banamex in San Cristóbal de Las Casas. Even though the Bancomer Preferred Customer Program seems to me to have been discontinued, Bancomer did, during the experiment, go out and hire personnel for their Ajijic office who are conversant in English and, I must admit, when I need help at the branch, that is a Godsend to me, especially when dealing with technical banking matters. I can also get English language help on Bancomer´s 800 numbers.  When dealing with Banamex branches in both San Cristóbal and Chapala or seeking help on their 800 numbers, some Spanish comprehension on the part of the client is helpful to say the least. 

Even if one becomes conversant in Spanish for every day use, one runs the risk of misunderstandings arising from amateur applications of the language. This may become troublesome when seeking complex financial services or when one is stretched out on the operating table at the local hospital having critical surgery. When I had a critical operation at a San Cristóbal hospital a few years ago, the fact that I spoke very Little Spanish and they spoke zero English nearly ended in my demise. If you must get seriously ill, try not to do so in the Chiapas Highlands.


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## lagoloo

joaquinx said:


> You are talking about Mexico and not the USA, right?


You're joking, right? Mexico, of course.


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## PatrickMurtha

Hound Dog said:


> That´s a good point, Patrick. I bank with Bancomer in Ajijic and Banamex in San Cristóbal de Las Casas. Even though the Bancomer Preferred Customer Program seems to me to have been discontinued, Bancomer did, during the experiment, go out and hire personnel for their Ajijic office who are conversant in English and, I must admit, when I need help at the branch, that is a Godsend to me, especially when dealing with technical banking matters. I can also get English language help on Bancomer´s 800 numbers. When dealing with Banamex branches in both San Cristóbal and Chapala or seeking help on their 800 numbers, some Spanish comprehension on the part of the client is helpful to say the least.
> 
> *Even if one becomes conversant in Spanish for every day use, one runs the risk of misunderstandings arising from amateur applications of the language.* This may become troublesome when seeking complex financial services or when one is stretched out on the operating table at the local hospital having critical surgery. When I had a critical operation at a San Cristóbal hospital a few years ago, the fact that I spoke very Little Spanish and they spoke zero English nearly ended in my demise. If you must get seriously ill, try not to do so in the Chiapas Highlands.


That is very helpful information about Bancomer, exactly the sort of thing that is helpful for me to know.

I agree with you very much about the language issues. A little knowledge is almost more dangerous than no knowledge, because both parties can think that communication has happened, when in fact it hasn't.


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## RVGRINGO

PatrickMurtha said:


> ........ A little knowledge is almost more dangerous than no knowledge, because *both parties can think that communication has happened, when in fact it hasn't.*


Now, that hits the nail squarely on the head.

Google English to Spanish: Ahora, que golpea el clavo de lleno en la cabeza.
Google Spanish to English: Now, hitting the nail squarely on the head.

Good translations, but the idiomatic meaning transmitted: None at all.


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## JoanneR2

PatrickMurtha said:


> Oh, I'm sure that's part of it. I intend to switch my banking services from Banorte to Bancomer's Preferred Customers Unit: BBVA Bancomer: Mexico Banking Services for Foreign Residents & Visitors Mexico&#146;s First Bank for Foreign Residents BBVA Bancomer, through its Preferred Customers' Unit, is the first bank to cater to the special needs of foreign residents and visitors, using not only the English language, but also the same financial language you are accustomed to back home. Preferred Customer's Unit is a division of BBVA Bancomer, one of the most solid and important financial groups in Mexico, with more than 75 years of experience, and part of BBVA, the international financial conglomerate with more than 35 million clients worldwide in 22 countries. Our objective is to offer foreigners the service and attention they expect. For this reason, we have implemented several new services designed to make your banking experience a quick, safe and easy process. By signing up, you will receive English language services and a Preferred Customer Card when acquiring any of our banking and financial products, such as the Bancomer Checking Account, Bancomer Debit Card, Platinum Credit Card, Bancomer Insurance, Bancomer Mutual Funds, and more! Our specialized branches are located exclusively in cities throughout the Republic of Mexico where there is a high density of foreign residents and visitors. To learn more about the tailor-made financial products and preferential treatment you'll receive as a BBVA Bancomer Preferred Customer, please visit Bancomer.com/pcu.


I have this service as I really needed it when I arrived and didn't speak any Spanish. My local branch has a preferred customer unit and I once spent a happy hour waiting to be seen by the "English speaking assistant" only to the. Be told that she had left for the day. All calls are done in Spanish, the new web site is slightly more intuitive than the old one but also only available in Spanish. Good luck and I hope you are more successful than I was. Fortunately it is no longer a problem as my Spanish is now sufficient to navigate the banking system here but the first few months were tricky...


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## JoanneR2

TundraGreen said:


> The first half of your comment, I agree with. I have learned to be the same. If I am invited somewhere, don't want to go and have no intention of going, I just say "Thank you, I'll be there". If someone gives me some food that I really don't want, I just say thank you, and pass it on to someone else. It is much easier than explaining or trying to convince someone that you really don't want to do something. The second half of your comment, I have never experienced (except for buses that pass without stopping, but I see them do that to everyone),


Having just had one of those weeks where two of my team have cried their way through meetings with me, I can only agree with the view that the Mexican's are more emotional, certainly than us Brits. I would point out that this wasn't because I was criticizing them or being overly direct it was a couple of personal issues. I keep a box of tissues handy now... Having said that I have also found my Mexican colleagues and friends to be some of the most open and funny people I have ever encountered. Not a day goes by without laughter and that helps enormously with the stress of trying to get anything actually done...


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## Isla Verde

JoanneR2 said:


> I have this service as I really needed it when I arrived and didn't speak any Spanish. ... Fortunately it is no longer a problem as my Spanish is now sufficient to navigate the banking system here but the first few months were tricky...


Congratulations on getting your Spanish up to snuff so quickly!


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## mxfan

Interesting to read the perceptions because I see many differences in attitudes that I simply file as cultural. Being that I am an American now living in Mexico, I routinely just accept the cultural differences and normally enjoy the culture. Sometimes accepting is quick and sometimes it takes some time for me to accept it. But being that I appreciate the culture. And I have various levels of acceptance; some very easy and some I accept with a frown. I have even come to view the drivers and lack of traffic rules as an acceptable situation. I still have a hard time being on Mexican time. All my life I was punctual and it is hard to be told a time which does not happen and not a text or call to update. 

I consider myself a guest in Mexico and I respect the culture. Mexico doesn't try to change me and I don't try to change Mexico. I try to conform to the culture and people out of respect and because I appreciate that I am a guest.

I must add that it is easier to accept things as a retired person here and not with the demands of working relationships.


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## citlali

I have lived here for 13 years and Mexico sure has changed me. I do work so I have to go by the rules and I had to change in order to get the things done I need done no question about that.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

"I consider myself a guest in Mexico and I respect the culture. Mexico doesn't try to change me and I don't try to change Mexico. I try to conform to the culture and people out of respect and because I appreciate that I am a guest."

Amen, MxFan.


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## citlali

Have yo changed any of your habits or behaviour since you have moved to Mexico?


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## coondawg

I think you must learn patience, acceptance, and to try to "keep your comments " to yourself more.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> I think you must learn patience, acceptance, and to try to "keep your comments " to yourself more.



I agree, expecially with your last suggestion. I do find myself mumbling comments under my breath that I might say out loud if I were still living in the States.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Have yo changed any of your habits or behaviour since you have moved to Mexico?


I always used to be on time for meetings and dates with friends, now, not so much. I rarely ask for ice in cold drinks when eating out. I may think of some things later . . .


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## citlali

Learning patience was my first, also being polite and exchanging nicety before any serious conversation was my second, always look at the bright sid of things and be happy was what you get was another one.
I also do not expect to get anythig I want or order until the third visit to a store or a talk with an artisan.
Without that personal contact you do not get very far.

I do not expect to be able to communicate by e-mail because someone has an address and I do not expect an answer via e-mail right away either.
Since I deal with people who do not have a lot of money I always keep the conversation short on the cell or I text . I say what I need to say before the money expires as well and I know that when a message comes on that a phone has been disconnected or out of the area there are problems with the signal and I try late until I get an answer, sometimes it takes a few days..

Dealing with the attitude of some bureaucrat still drives me up the wall but I do keep my thoughts to myself as a rule...there are still exceptions as thse guys are really good at getting under my skin.

I do not consider myself a guest and never did in any other country I have ever lived either wether citizen or not.

Last of all I am sick of the lousy toilet assemblies that always break down.


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## JoanneR2

Isla Verde said:


> I always used to be on time for meetings and dates with friends, now, not so much. I rarely ask for ice in cold drinks when eating out. I may think of some things later . . .


I really understand the comment about time. When I first arrived I can remember sitting in meeting rooms on my own wondering if I was in the right place. I am obsessive about being on time for anything but have had to adapt to Mexican ideas of time (a state of mind not a measure I am told). However, I may never get used to the ritual hugs that accompany the first and last meeting of the day... There is just something in my genes which finds it uncomfortable , except with people I know really well. Having said that, on a recent visit back to the UK I greeted my ex boss with a large abrazo and got a rather alarmed response. Pobre, I think going home might require some adjustment on my part.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I always used to be on time for meetings and dates with friends, now, not so much. I rarely ask for ice in cold drinks when eating out. I may think of some things later . . .


Ditto. I definitely enjoy taking advantage of the fact that I can arrive late without stressing about it. I still tend to be the first one to arrive anywhere however.

I still like ice in my water.

I have learned not to be overly accurate. I accept invitations graciously, to things I have no intention of attending. I accept gifts of food graciously, then pass them on to someone else.

I am more outgoing and have more friends here than I ever did in the US. Although, this was a change that was in process when I came here and may have more to do with having more free time now than in the past.


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## GARYJ65

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> "I consider myself a guest in Mexico and I respect the culture. Mexico doesn't try to change me and I don't try to change Mexico. I try to conform to the culture and people out of respect and because I appreciate that I am a guest." Amen, MxFan.


Good thing you do not try to change Mexico! I personally don't think you would have the power to do so


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## terrybahena

These days I get ready to go at the time I was supposed to be there, and I am still the first one there. I know I have nothing if I don't have it in my hand. I am better at waiting in line and not fidgeting...and not complaining! (everyone just turns at looks at me when I complain loudly about waiting ha ha). I am learning patience. And acceptance...and with continued wonder at my "old" life I keep finding what I can do without. Letting go of expectations is huge, and bringing so much serenity to my life. I am learning to love the slower pace, the chatting before business....
Oh I always always have toilet paper in my purse. And Tundra Green I never thought about the one about accept invitations graciously whether I intend to go or not- something to think about. I'm learning not to make a big deal out of things that are not big things...and most are not ha ha.


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## mxfan

GARYJ65 said:


> Good thing you do not try to change Mexico! I personally don't think you would have the power to do so


I Don't have the power to try? Doesn't everyone have the power to try? I'm guessing you mean I don't have the power to make changes in MX. I don't attempt to change things in MX because 1) I don't want to change things in MX and 2) I am not a citizen of MX and I'm a guest by choice, so it is not my place to judge. If it doesn't work for me, I would leave.


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## GARYJ65

mxfan said:


> I Don't have the power to try? Doesn't everyone have the power to try? I'm guessing you mean I don't have the power to make changes in MX. I don't attempt to change things in MX because 1) I don't want to change things in MX and 2) I am not a citizen of MX and I'm a guest by choice, so it is not my place to judge. If it doesn't work for me, I would leave.


Ok, you DO have the power to try

In any case, what I meant was that it was great that you were not interested on changing Mexico, because you do not have the power to do it

Have a nice day


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## Longford

mxfan said:


> I Don't have the power to try? Doesn't everyone have the power to try? I'm guessing you mean I don't have the power to make changes in MX. I don't attempt to change things in MX because ..... 2) I am not a citizen of MX and I'm a guest by choice, so it is not my place to judge.


As I view this: you, we, certainly have every right to pass judgment based on our observations and experiences in Mexico. One doesn't lose his/her freedom to think and form opinions just because we're a "guest". :welcome:



mxfan said:


> If it doesn't work for me, I would leave.


Exactly the right response, IMO. International relocation, to Mexico or anyplace else, isn't the right choice for many people - even though they, at first, think it is ... and they pack-up and go home or some other place when they're unhappy.  Then there are those others, few I think, who whine all the time about something they don't like about Mexico. :confused2:


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## emilybcruz

It's interesting to hear your East Asia vs Mexico observations Patrick. Oddly enough, this video was just shared on the Expats in Mexico Facebook page yesterday so I was compelled to share it here after reading your comments. This gentleman lives in Japan though and it appears your experience is in Korea so maybe that has something to do with it?


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## GARYJ65

They are nice in Japan, different culture, several thousands of years of tradition,
if Mexico has a bitter sweet relation with the US is due to our history, Japan has much more historical reasons to...dislike americans.
One more thing to understand when traveling abroad; people are not eagerly expecting the foreigners to make them feel happy. If they want to feel at home, stay at home or be willing to pay the price to call a new place home.


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## citlali

The Japanese cuture is miles apart from the US or Mexican culture and it can be frustrating dealing with Japanese because of all the cultural differences. I did business with quite a few Japanese and being a woman was difficult. 
The Japanese men have a way to make you invisible and ignoring you that can be extremely maddening, I know exactly how this young man felt...

There are nice people in any culture but some cultures are so different that it is sometimes difficult to overcome the differences.
Once you know people and deal with people on a regular basis these differences can be overlooked but at first and with strangers it is very frusrating. I know exactly this young man felt..


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## PatrickMurtha

emilybcruz said:


> It's interesting to hear your East Asia vs Mexico observations Patrick. Oddly enough, this video was just shared on the Expats in Mexico Facebook page yesterday so I was compelled to share it here after reading your comments. This gentleman lives in Japan though and it appears your experience is in Korea so maybe that has something to do with it?


That is a very interesting video! In general, I would say that Koreans were friendlier than what the gentleman in the video describes Japanese as being - and that would be consistent, certainly, with what Koreans themselves think of the Japanese (but they have a bad history). I do feel, ultimately, that Latin America and East Asia have a LOT in common - all such courtly cultures (which has, despite my occasional grousing, MANY positive aspects).


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## Isla Verde

How interesting that the guy in the video liked Mexico because Mexicans are so "human". I liked and agree with that comment!


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## citlali

Yes there is a lot in common but by he way did you know that a Japanese mission came to Acapulco in 1600? The Samurai was from the town of Sendai and there will be a Japanese Mexican exhibition in Sendai in Jan and Febr 2015 to celebrate the arrival of the mission in Acapulco. The exhibition will be callled MEXIKOKESHI
The unpainted dolls have been distributed to various Mexican artisans who have been asked to decorate these dolls for the exhibition for that fusion exhibit.
The photo of the Mexican artisans with their traditional art will be part of the exhibition and some of their pieces will be offered for sale there as well. I wish I could go..


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> How interesting that the guy in the video liked Mexico because Mexicans are so "human". I liked and agree with that comment!


It took us quite some time to become human like


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## citlali

You have to be in a place where people do not respond to you to understand what the man is saying, It happened to us in te 80´s when we ried to take a train to some town in China and we were in a train station where they was no sign we could understand, people we tried to communicate with did not look at s or ty to help or respond, it t is a very uneasy feeling and after a while it really gets on your nerves.
Some indigenous women in the back woods will do exactly that. It is just that they do not undestand what you are saying and do not want to or cannot try to communicate back so you get a blank stare, now if the guy was speaking Japanese it makes it even worst..maybe his Japanese is not that good who knows but I have gotten that reaction and it makes you feel very uneasy.
Most people "humans" acknowledge they have heard you but some just totally ignore you, that is what I call make you invisible..the Japanese are very good at it and it can be maddening wether it is the right reaction or not is another thing.
Since this man lives in Japan it seems that he would have gottenused to that reaction and know that the not looking at you directly is a cultural response but body language sometimes is louder than words.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Yes there is a lot in common but by he way did you know that a Japanese mission came to Acapulco in 1600? The Samurai was from the town of Sendai and there will be a Japanese Mexican exhibition in Sendai in Jan and Febr 2015 to celebrate the arrival of the mission in Acapulco. The exhibition will be callled MEXIKOKESHI


Thanks for the reference.

Japan, however, apparently had little to no direct trade with Mexico. The Spaniards had established their trade route across Mexico from Veracruz to Acapulco and from Acapulco to Manila, Philippines. Japan was distrusting of Christians ... seeing Christianity as a threat ... and because of that missed-out on establishing stronger trade.

Here's one reference to that period of time:



> In 1609 a ship from Manila traveling to Acapulco and carrying an outgoing governor of the Philippines wrecked in Japan. Ieyasu treated the governor hospitably and in 1610 sent him along his way accompanied by more than twenty Japanese merchants. The governor was convinced to support Ieyasu desire for trade with Mexico. The Spanish authorities were not inclined to welcome the Japanese merchants. They put these merchants on the first ship returning to Manila and told them not to come back.


Source: Japan's Missed Opportunity in the Pacific

Over the years there has been some slight migration of Japanese to Mexico, principally along the Pacific Coast of Chiapas (as you probably know, being familiar with that state). The Japanese are credited with establishing coffee plantations (which I don't think have ever been successful over the long-term). Apparently, there are still 30,000 descendants of the Japanese living in the area to which the Emperor of Japan, Akihito, visited.


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> You have to be in a place where people do not respond to you to understand what the man is saying, It happened to us in te 80´s when we ried to take a train to some town in China and we were in a train station where they was no sign we could understand, people we tried to communicate with did not look at s or ty to help or respond, it t is a very uneasy feeling and after a while it really gets on your nerves.
> Some indigenous women in the back woods will do exactly that. It is just that they do not undestand what you are saying and do not want to or cannot try to communicate back so you get a blank stare, now if the guy was speaking Japanese it makes it even worst..maybe his Japanese is not that good who knows but I have gotten that reaction and it makes you feel very uneasy.
> Most people "humans" acknowledge they have heard you but some just totally ignore you, that is what I call make you invisible..the Japanese are very good at it and it can be maddening wether it is the right reaction or not is another thing.
> Since this man lives in Japan it seems that he would have gottenused to that reaction and know that the not looking at you directly is a cultural response but body language sometimes is louder than words.


And then again, when we travel abroad we must keep in mind there might be reactions derived from historical or even personal issues. I know some elder friends, Americans, who do not like to get in an elevator with japanese people, or are reluctant to ride in a japanese made car... same thing happens with Japanese...
One other time, this acquaintance of mine, an american, was standing on line at an airport in Mexico, when a couple came and took his place in the line, mainly because the american guy was distracted talking and forgot to walk on. The american got so upset, thinking they were trying to steer his place, and started shouting about it, saying that they were being so rude, as expected from europeans, and should be grateful toward Americans for liberation France...
By the way, the american guy is not my acquaintance anymore


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> One other time, this acquaintance of mine, an american, was standing on line at an airport in Mexico, when a couple came and took his place in the line, mainly because the american guy was distracted talking and forgot to walk on. The american got so upset, thinking they were trying to steer his place, and started shouting about it, saying that they were being so rude, as expected from europeans, and should be grateful toward Americans for liberation France...
> By the way, the american guy is not my acquaintance anymore


How did your ex-acquaintance know the couple were Europeans? In any event, idiots like that can be found in every country, unfortunately.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> How did your ex-acquaintance know the couple were Europeans? In any event, idiots like that can be found in every country, unfortunately.


They were speaking french


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> They were speaking french


I see.


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## GARYJ65

They could have been Belgians or Canadians, in any case.

That's a good example of feeling "pena ajena"


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> They could have been Belgians or Canadians, in any case.
> 
> That's a good example of feeling "pena ajena"


If I had been you, I would have been so embarrassed by the behavior of your unpleasant ex-acquaintance.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> If I had been you, I would have been so embarrassed by the behavior of your unpleasant ex-acquaintance.


I was!
That's the essence of the pena ajena concept


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## citlali

Could have been Swiss as well 
Some Americans way too young to have been in the Second World war have a real hang up about the French not been thankful enough for being saved by the Americans.
Some people just forget when the war started in Europe and easily forget Pearl Harbour. The US did not go into World war II to save France or anyone else as far as I know.
Good think I was not at the airport , there would have been another blow up..


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## citlali

By the way , it is kind of interesting that Americans would not like to get in an elevator with Japanese.. I wonder how the Japanese feel about getting in an elevator with Americans..but one thing for sure the Japanese will push that button to open and close the elevator door no matter what....
Yes there can be historical reasons but there can also be huge cultural gap. For that reason you can find Japanese from extremely polite to extremely rude all at once. 

I think that blaming people who were not born for the past history of their country is not a very good way to go forward.
When I was a kid I was made to learn German and went to Germany to school every year and my German friend came and went to school in Fance every year. I rememember being 12 or 13 and having people kicking us out of stores or refusing to serve us because we had a German girl with us . It is in a way understandable as it was 12 years after the end of the war but I remember thinking that these adults were crazy to treat us that way as all they were talking about had happened before we were born and we should not have been penalized for something we had nothing to do with.
It is good to know and remember history but it is also important to take a step back and judge people for themselves and not for the country they are from .


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> By the way , it is kind of interesting that Americans would not like to get in an elevator with Japanese.. I wonder how the Japanese feel about getting in an elevator with Americans..but one thing for sure the Japanese will push that button to open and close the elevator door no matter what.... Yes there can be historical reasons but there can also be huge cultural gap. For that reason you can find Japanese from extremely polite to extremely rude all at once. I think that blaming people who were not born for the past history of their country is not a very good way to go forward. When I was a kid I was made to learn German and went to Germany to school every year and my German friend came and went to school in Fance every year. I rememember being 12 or 13 and having people kicking us out of stores or refusing to serve us because we had a German girl with us . It is in a way understandable as it was 12 years after the end of the war but I remember thinking that these adults were crazy to treat us that way as all they were talking about had happened before we were born and we should not have been penalized for something we had nothing to do with. It is good to know and remember history but it is also important to take a step back and judge people for themselves and not for the country they are from .


And that would happen in a perfect world, but does not reflect our time


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## citlali

So I am supposed to hate all Germans because some of them wiped out village next to where my grand-mother lived or all Americans because they destroyed the town where I was born?
Sorry that is not the way I chose to live my life.


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## lagoloo

And meanwhile, back in the real world, it is not individual citizens going about their personal affairs but governments which decide to wage war and commit atrocities.
Perpetrating the hate two or three generations later is just plain ignorant.
"My" government, like most others, is primarily composed ot old men sending young men into harms' way.


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> So I am supposed to hate all Germans because some of them wiped out village next to where my grand-mother lived or all Americans because they destroyed the town where I was born?
> Sorry that is not the way I chose to live my life.


Fortunately for everyone, today, we are not SUPPOSED TO DO ANYTHING we don't want to, but the reality is that most people do not act as they were supposed to.

A few years ago I had this east Texan friend that were going ballistic over the fact that they were going to have a president called OBAMA!


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## citlali

If you can believe this an expat I know told me she was waiting to hear the elections results a few years ago and that if Obama was reelected she would not return to Texas until after he was gone...Meanwhile she could be dead before she gets a chance to go back and be with her family which is the reason she wanted to go back to Texas in the first place.

I think they need to do a whole lot more of students exchange for way more years in some part of the US just to see how the rest of the world lives and learn a few things.


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## makaloco

citlali said:


> I think they need to do a whole lot more of students exchange for way more years in some part of the US just to see how the rest of the world lives and learn a few things.


Exactly. The best thing I ever did was to travel and work abroad in my 20s. I thought I was pretty clever back then but soon found out how little I knew.


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## TundraGreen

makaloco said:


> Exactly. The best thing I ever did was to travel and work abroad in my 20s. I thought I was pretty clever back then but soon found out how little I knew.


I agree that travel and seeing how other people live and view the world is a great way to broaden one's horizons. However, many people don't have that opportunity. And many people that do travel spend their vacation in a resort or chain hotel and see little of the world anyway. So I don't hold out much hope that travel is going to solve the problems of people getting along.


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## PatrickMurtha

TundraGreen said:


> I agree that travel and seeing how other people live and view the world is a great way to broaden one's horizons. However, many people don't have that opportunity. And many people that do travel spend their vacation in a resort or chain hotel and see little of the world anyway. So I don't hold out much hope that travel is going to solve the problems of people getting along.


The classic view of travel from the 18th through early 20th Centuries was as a form of education, not a form of self-indulgence. The Grand Tours were all about exposure to history and culture. Most Americans even when they go abroad have a sybaritic concept of travel that does not broaden their horizons all that much. If they traveled to provide themselves food for thought instead of pleasing, fleeting sensations, they would get a lot more out of it.


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## makaloco

TundraGreen said:


> I agree that travel and seeing how other people live and view the world is a great way to broaden one's horizons. However, many people don't have that opportunity. And many people that do travel spend their vacation in a resort or chain hotel and see little of the world anyway. So I don't hold out much hope that travel is going to solve the problems of people getting along.


That's why it's important to do it while young, in a student exchange program as Citlali suggested, or other low budget extended travel experience typical of 20-somethings. You're right, two-week vacations in resorts or chain hotels are unlikely to change anyone's outlook. That's why there are people in the US who claim to have traveled extensively but are still in "I'm an American" mode and closed to different ways of seeing and doing things. For many of them, moving to another country at retirement age is much too late to start being open-minded, because they're too rigidly judgemental even regarding events in their own county.


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## terrybahena

Racism and ignorance is alive and well everywhere. All we can do is live by example. For me, ha ha I was married to a Palestinian for 15 years and now that I have a Mexican last name I never get stopped in the airport anymore!


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## citlali

Mexico is not far from the US and the schools could have a whole lot more exchange programs than they do, languages should be taught seriously not just for one or two years to meet some type of requirement.
I was sent to Germany for a month every year for 13 years like it or not and I learned a lot. We always had kids from another country at home mostly Brits, Germans and Italians . We lived in a small apartment so we had to double up and live with those kids, some we enjoyed some not so much and we did the same when we went to their country.
The price of the exchange was the price of the rip as the kids would live as one of the family and would go to the public school with us like we went to the public school with them.

I think it is very important to live abroad when you are a kid so you can get over that your country is the only one that does things right and you can learn about others. SOmetimes it ws a pain and sometimes it worked out fine.
We had 2 Americans girls when I was 17 or so and those were the worst . Spoiled, crying for their boy friends and the US..I guess they started going out too old and were already too set in their ways.


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> Mexico is not far from the US and the schools could have a whole lot more exchange programs than they do, languages should be taught seriously not just for one or two years to meet some type of requirement.
> I was sent to Germany for a month every year for 13 years like it or not and I learned a lot. We always had kids from another country at home mostly Brits, Germans and Italians . We lived in a small apartment so we had to double up and live with those kids, some we enjoyed some not so much and we did the same when we went to their country.
> The price of the exchange was the price of the rip as the kids would live as one of the family and would go to the public school with us like we went to the public school with them.
> 
> I think it is very important to live abroad when you are a kid so you can get over that your country is the only one that does things right and you can learn about others. SOmetimes it ws a pain and sometimes it worked out fine.
> We had 2 Americans girls when I was 17 or so and those were the worst . Spoiled, crying for their boy friends and the US..I guess they started going out too old and were already too set in their ways.


I agree that exchange programs for kids are great. We had a Japanese girl live with us for several months when my kids were in high school. My daughter went to Germany for her third year of college. She is still there, 25 years later. She dropped out of the US university she had been attending, enrolled in a German university, eventually got a Diplom, and then a PhD.


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## citlali

congratulations to your daughter! We had aan Afghan woman who lived with us in Santa Cruz while she was going to school. They had a program for Afghan women to be midwives and nurses so Afghan women had some health care as most of the husbands let their wife suffer or die rather than be examined by a male doctor in those days. 
We learned about aghan customs, food music and so on and had a great time with her. Unfortunately for her she went back go married and the Russians came in..I heard the men of the tribes killed the women so they would not be raped by the Russions..really sad , that was in the late 70´s and think they have known nothing but war since then..just awful. 
To this day we make dishes we called by her name like Nafisa kabuli Palaw and others. It was a great experience haveing her stay with us.

I am still friends with the kids of the family I used to stay with in Germany. Yes these exchanges are very good and they do not have to be expensive if they are true exchanges.
On an interesting note the exchanges worked very well with Germany and Italy, it did not work so well with Great Britain, we are all talking about "Europe" but each country is very different and not all programs work well for all countries.

It is good for kids to get out of their comfort zone and experience different people and different cultures. Both American girls who came to our house regretted wasting their time away when they were teenagers and came back to France with their husband 
later on.


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## lagoloo

On the other hand, many people were too poor in their student years and too busy making a living later to obtain the benefits of travel. 

Being open minded is not necessarily the result of travel: witness the "ugly Americans" who bring all their biases with them when they go abroad.
Attitudes are usually transmitted from parents to children.
Open minded offspring come from like minded families.

When I finally had the means and time to travel, I was more interested in learning, in seeing the things I had only seen in pictures and observing how life was lived in other countries rather than from hearsay.
I try not to make assumptions about how others arrive at their mental destinations.


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## citlali

I put myself through school and worked the whole time I was a student, you do not need to be rich to live abroad or travel abroad just want to do it.If you are broke like I was you can stay in convent and hostels , room with several students and so on but you have to be willing to get out of your comfort zone.


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## Isla Verde

In order to be able to live and travel abroad, I changed professions from teaching Spanish to teaching English as a Foreign Language, and it worked out pretty well for me.


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## citlali

In order to live abroad I became a teacher for 5 years but then I changed course and thanks to the languages I had learned and working as a teenager at a wine cellar , I got a job in an wine import company,,talking about luck..you just never know what life has in store for you.

I guess learning Spanish was a good thing for you too Isla Verde since you were able to live in Spain and Mexico and work. Yes you just never know!


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

citlali, your "We had 2 Americans girls when I was 17 or so and those were the worst . Spoiled, crying for their boy friends and the US..I guess they started going out too old and were already too set in their ways."

Sadly, oh so true, but also, oh so sad. I wonder if they ever woke up at 25 or 35 to realize what they lost and wasted.


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## citlali

Yes they woke up went back to France with their husbands , got divorced , went back to school and are perfectly nice and well adjusted now. I guess they had to grow up to appreciated what they had.


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