# Thinking of taking 'The Plunge'.



## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Hi everyone, newbie here, please be gentle. 
I am thinking about moving to Spain, I am single, have no dependents and have an income. I have finally, after about a year of trying to make my mind up, settled on the area of Mojacar. These are my questions:

In the UK I pay no tax on my income as it's tax exempt, I know I will have to in Spain but I am confused about how I should declare it. I don't provide a service and I don't sell anything so instead of declaring myself Autonomo should I just declare how much I have 'earned' at the end of each tax year.

I am looking at buying a park home (not a caravan) and have read and heard horror stories about sites having a license then having it revoked and then regaining it only to have it revoked again, does anybody know how safe (or not) licenses are these days.

Health insurance is not a problem, I already have a few quotes for that and as I'm fairly healthy it's not that expensive. I understand that after a year I can pay around 60€ to the state for my healthcare. Does this include dental work if need be.

Although I drive I don't really want to and Mojacar seems to have a reliable bus service even in the winter although obviously less frequent. Do any of you live in that area and can confirm that there is indeed a service that lives up to the info on the tourist information site.

I have also lived in Brittany for a few years so I am used to things going dead in the winter and loads of tourists in the summer but how quiet is the area in winter, does literally everything close.

I don't speak spanish apart from a few basic words and phrases but I picked french up pretty quickly so learning is not a problem. Are lessons expensive.

I am coming over for a couple of weeks, probably Oct-Nov time and will ask about what is included in the ground fees at whichever site I decide on but I am a little confused about the IBI tax, I cannot find any references re park homes. Is this tax payable only on bricks and mortar homes.

I think that just about covers everything...I look forward to your replies with a little trepidation


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

You have an income, we do not know the amount even a ball park figure. You're buying a park home and so will be anchored. We don't know if you are looking for a job.

How much are you going to spend on the park home? Would you be better off renting? 

I live in Mojacar Playa on and off during the year. The local bus service is cheap and good. You don't need to be able to speak Spanish, unless you are looking for a job.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Whilst I thank you for your reply leper and am pleased that there does seem to be truth in the reliable bus service I am at a loss as to why how much my income is is any of your business? I have looked into how much I am allowed before paying tax and I am above the threshold so therefore I would need to pay tax.
As I have an income why would I need to look for a job and with the unemployment levels at over 27% why on earth would I come to Spain looking for one?
I must say I expected a bit more of a response with regards to becoming Autonomo or not as I understand it doesn't depend on how much you earn or not but is a flat rate that has to be paid just for the privilege of not being an employee. I just can't find out if the way I accumulate my income from matched betting and sports trading (because that is neither selling anything or providing a service) would need to come under Autonomo or not or if I should just declare it on a yearly tax return. I also know I can offset losses against gains, although, with matched betting unless you do something really stupid it is actually a risk free way of betting.
I have thought about renting but have decided not to go down that route because if I decided to spend some time in the UK with family I could look into renting it out for however many weeks I spend back there. And once again I am at a loss as to why you need to know how much I do or do not want to spend on buying a park home unless you know of someone who is selling and would like to point me in that direction.
Perhaps if I had come on this forum and said I was a single mother or a couple with six kids in tow looking to open a bar or start up a construction business, speaking no spanish and generally not having a clue I would have been inundated with replies ripping it apart but hey ho there's not much fun in that when I am single with no dependents and already have an income with no need to find a job and can quite comfortably support myself.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Tigerlillie said:


> Whilst I thank you for your reply leper and am pleased that there does seem to be truth in the reliable bus service I am at a loss as to why how much my income is is any of your business? I have looked into how much I am allowed before paying tax and I am above the threshold so therefore I would need to pay tax.
> As I have an income why would I need to look for a job and with the unemployment levels at over 27% why on earth would I come to Spain looking for one?
> I must say I expected a bit more of a response with regards to becoming Autonomo or not as I understand it doesn't depend on how much you earn or not but is a flat rate that has to be paid just for the privilege of not being an employee. I just can't find out if the way I accumulate my income from matched betting and sports trading (because that is neither selling anything or providing a service) would need to come under Autonomo or not or if I should just declare it on a yearly tax return. I also know I can offset losses against gains, although, with matched betting unless you do something really stupid it is actually a risk free way of betting.
> I have thought about renting but have decided not to go down that route because if I decided to spend some time in the UK with family I could look into renting it out for however many weeks I spend back there. And once again I am at a loss as to why you need to know how much I do or do not want to spend on buying a park home unless you know of someone who is selling and would like to point me in that direction.
> Perhaps if I had come on this forum and said I was a single mother or a couple with six kids in tow looking to open a bar or start up a construction business, speaking no spanish and generally not having a clue I would have been inundated with replies ripping it apart but hey ho there's not much fun in that when I am single with no dependents and already have an income with no need to find a job and can quite comfortably support myself.


:welcome:

registering as autónomo isn't complicated - although _being _autónomo unfortunately is expensive

you're in luck though - there's a low start _tarifa plana _which means that you start by paying a bit over 50€ a month, gradually building over 18 months to the full amount. The actual amount you pay will depend upon your age, among other things

I pay over 280€ a month - regardless of how much I earn. And there's income tax on top of that 

this explains the _tarifa plana _

your best bet is to talk to a gestor really, to see if you are able to register as autónomo, with what you do

you're right though - we don't need to know your income - but the govt will want to know, because in order to register as resident (which is obligatory) you will have to prove that you can support yourself, & that you have healthcare provision in place

if you can register as autónomo you're covered in both respects, but if not, you'll have to prove it some other way


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

So I guess you're a professional gambler, I'm not sure how you would work that through the 'autonomo system' with regards to invoices, though I guess if you were paying into that you would not have to worry about healthcare.

I wonder how financial investors are taxed as there is a similarity between the two professions. If you made an overall loss over the year could you offset it against any profits in following years? I know that losses can be carried forward in financial institutions, they even give them state money when they really make a mess of things!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Tigerlillie said:


> Hi everyone, newbie here, please be gentle.
> I am thinking about moving to Spain, I am single, have no dependents and have an income. I have finally, after about a year of trying to make my mind up, settled on the area of Mojacar. These are my questions:
> 
> In the UK I pay no tax on my income as it's tax exempt, I know I will have to in Spain but I am confused about how I should declare it. I don't provide a service and I don't sell anything so instead of declaring myself Autonomo should I just declare how much I have 'earned' at the end of each tax year.
> ...


Hello :welcome:

I'm not sure why you would need to become autónomo (self-employed) if your income is generated elsewhere. You would just need to delare it on your annual income tax declaration (IRPF), made at this time of year for the previous calendar year.

The _convenio especial _doesn't include dentistry but dental work is about half the cost it is in the UK (and at least as good).

I'd also advise renting somewhere for a year or so rather than buying a park home. Again, rents are far cheaper here than in the UK and the terms aren't as restrictive (e.g. you can usually have pets).

Many towns with substantial immigrant populations offer free or cheap Spanish lessons - I'd bet Mojácar does.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Tigerlillie said:


> ...
> 
> I am coming over for a couple of weeks, probably Oct-Nov time and will ask about what is included in the ground fees at whichever site I decide on but I am a little confused about the IBI tax, I cannot find any references re park homes. Is this tax payable only on bricks and mortar homes.
> 
> I think that just about covers everything...I look forward to your replies with a little trepidation


IBI - Impuesto sobre Bienes Inmuebles

Which basically translates to "tax on immovable assets". I'm not certain by I suspect a park home might be classified as a movable asset, in which case it would be exempt from IBI.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> ...
> I'm not sure why you would need to become autónomo (self-employed) if your income is generated elsewhere. You would just need to delare it on your annual income tax declaration (IRPF), made at this time of year for the previous calendar year.
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure about this one either.

I'd imagine Hacienda would classify the OP as working in Spain, even if the income was being generated outside of Spain. In fact the OP might need to check that it's even legal to place offshore bets. However I'm not exactly sure whether in Spain full-time betting is recognised as a profession.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

No idea if any of this is useful

Spain Betting - The Law for Online Betting in Spain



> Taxes on Internet Gamling
> There are interesting developments in the area of gambling taxation, with a draft legislative package that would, if it became law, enable Spanish gamblers to deduct losses from their wins for tax purposes. Such a move would be terrific for professional punters, who are currently taxed on their gross winnings from which they are not entitled to deduct their losing stakes. It would provide them with a great reason to bet with an operator licensed in Spain.
> 
> With the transition period over, now it is illegal for Spanish citizens to bet with operators who do not hold a Spanish licence. But they are not spoilt for choice, with many of the world’s biggest gambling organisations setting up .es domains to service the European country legally.


http://www.olswang.com/pdfs/gambling_jun11a.pdf


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Hello :welcome:
> 
> I'm not sure why you would need to become autónomo (self-employed) if your income is generated elsewhere. You would just need to delare it on your annual income tax declaration (IRPF), made at this time of year for the previous calendar year.
> 
> ...


I woulnt say private dentistry in Spain is about half the price of that of UK, perhaps 3/4 the price might be nearer, and its getting more expensive.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your replies some really useful info there.

Yes, professional gambler is what you could call it but I prefer sports trading as gambling seems to imply placing a bet and hoping for the best, matched betting isn't like that at all. I never thought to look at how financial (gamblers?) investors pay tax, that's something worth looking into although I will take xabiachica's advice and consult a gestor. I have to say oronero it would be nice if I messed up bad one time the state would throw money at me but unfortunately I don't think they'd be having any of that! :-D I have read and heard horror stories of unscrupulous legal professionals in Spain, is there a list, perhaps in the local British Consulate of reputable ones?
I have looked into the gambling laws in Spain and how they are regulated and the betting exchanges I use do have .es domains and the rules are quite stringent as are the registration processes especially here in Spain so no worries on that score. I do want to be legal as I don't want to be looking over my shoulder and worrying about someone knocking on the proverbial door with a hefty bill for income tax and cleaning me out.
I do and can provide an income sufficient to satisfy the minimum amount to become resident (around 600€ per month?) and can also put a lump sum in an account (which I believe is around 6000€?) if needs be.
I'm not too concerned about the cost of health insurance as I'm fairly healthy and have no existing or underlying problems and the few quotes I have had seem fairly reasonable but perhaps I should include dental cover as it doesn't seem to bump up the premiums a great deal. One of the middle quotes I have is from a company called ASSSA and they have offices in Vera (which would be local to me) and other towns in Spain, do any of you know of this company and are they reputable?
It's also good to know that IBI is probably not payable on a park home because although they don't have wheels they are transportable. I know a lot of the sites include in the ground fees water, electricity and rubbish collection, not sure about council tax though but I will be asking these questions before I settle on which site and home I want.
Another thing I liked was there may be free (I like that word!) spanish lessons available, I know leper said I probably wouldn't need to speak the lingo but I think that's rude and would like to be able to participate in simple conversations (especially shop assistants) and to be able to read bills, letters and the like without having to rely on google translate which is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Once again thanks for all your replies, it's given me ideas on searching for stuff in different ways.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

extranjero said:


> I woulnt say private dentistry in Spain is about half the price of that of UK, perhaps 3/4 the price might be nearer, and its getting more expensive.


I'm only going by experience. In 2012 I was quoted over £1,000 in the UK for a bridge that cost €650 here. With the better exchange rate now, that's close to 50%.

Prices haven't changed at my dentist in the last seven years - €40 for a filling, €50 for a full reconstruction.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Tigerlillie said:


> I have read and heard horror stories of unscrupulous legal professionals in Spain, is there a list, perhaps in the local British Consulate of reputable ones?


Yep. 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spain-list-of-lawyers


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

One of the most important things I forgot to ask is what are the telephone and internet companies like in Spain, do any of you have wimax and is that more reliable? What sort of download speed is around the norm? When I lived in the sticks in France I was lucky if I got 1.5-2mbps on a good day and now I'm back in the UK 10-15 is the norm.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Tigerlillie said:


> One of the most important things I forgot to ask is what are the telephone and internet companies like in Spain, do any of you have wimax and is that more reliable? What sort of download speed is around the norm? When I lived in the sticks in France I was lucky if I got 1.5-2mbps on a good day and now I'm back in the UK 10-15 is the norm.


Like everything else it depends where you live. Most cities now have high-speed fibre optic. 

I live in a mountain pueblo 45 km from the nearest city and I get 6 mbps broadband via ADSL (Jazztel), but there are other people living on the margins of cities who struggle to get 1. 

There are lots of threads discussing it on the forum, just search for 'internet connection'.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi Op,

If you're dependent on a connection, and I certainly think you fall into that bracket, then you should avoid Winmax and other over-the-air solutions and stick to wires or optical cables, in my opinion.

My ADSL connection gives me around 5mb most days. On a really bad day at peak times in peak season (i'm on the coast and the local population swells to 5 times it's normal size in the summer) it might go down to around 1.5.

I don't think financial traders can be compared with your profession. When you trade shares you pay tax on the profit you make, whereas you can "gamble" all year and you're liable to none, as you know. That said, I don't know about the trading sites where people are effectively betting on the shifting of prices in commodities, currencies, etc. How that works for tax I don't know.

I have a friend in your line of business. When out of the UK he uses a VPS but that's because he does all his work on .uk machines. His big issue with working outside of the UK is he can't get his special satellite feed which shows him the races 5 seconds before the average punter sees them. Are you using generally available feeds or something special when you're here?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Why avoid wi-max?

My connection sounds better than yours at a solid 6gb and it's a wi-max. Not a single problem with it and it doesn't suffer from lower speeds at peak times at all.

It is brilliant and if your only other choice is satellite or a copper line then I would seriously consider a wi-max connection.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

It's personal experience. I have used Winmax and it's been patchy. That's been a mix of the technology and the service providers who've supplied it to me.

Wires have worked much better, for me.

There is absolutely no way I would swap my Movistar ADSL for company A, B or C's Wimax, even if it was half the price.

And I am an IT worker who needs a solid connection.

As for peak times, that's more to do with the population changes and could actually affect Wimax as much as it does ADSL in this area. Much depends on where you are. If a user is on a trunk where fibre is installed, it's not an issue even if you're on either of the "last mile" technologies.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Horlics said:


> It's personal experience. I have used Winmax and it's been patchy. That's been a mix of the technology and the service providers who've supplied it to me.
> 
> Wires have worked much better, for me.
> 
> ...




.... if you work in IT, what's all this winmax?



For an awful lot of us in Spain, the only option for ADSL is via old fashioned copper wires. The problem then is that the major suppliers (only really is Movistar aka Telefonica) doesn't see fit to invest in their infrastructure - or not enough anyway.

If you live too far from an exchange, like we do, then you will get less than 1Mb of service! The ONLY (realistic) option then is to use WiMax - we get a steady 6Mb but could get 20 if we wanted to pay the extra.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Oops, just a typo, being in IT doesn't prevent them . I thought you might have noticed... I did get it right the second time I typed it in that message. And the third.

And yes, there are times when WiMAX is the only choice, but IMO if there's a wired option that's the one to choose. In my area the WiMAX offerings are from a couple of small ish providers both of whom get quite negative reviews from a few people I know.

Now, in my UK house I am on Virgin and would always go for cable rather than ADSL.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

I have a wifi connection with a dish, no probs also as long as you have a good line of site to the tower it is fine.

What really interests me is how you are one of the very few people who can make money consistently from gambling


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Horlics said:


> Oops, just a typo, being in IT doesn't prevent them . I thought you might have noticed... I did get it right the second time I typed it in that message. And the third.
> 
> And yes, there are times when WiMAX is the only choice, but IMO if there's a wired option that's the one to choose. In my area the WiMAX offerings are from a couple of small ish providers both of whom get quite negative reviews from a few people I know.
> 
> Now, in my UK house I am on Virgin and would always go for cable rather than ADSL.



Absolutely agree.

If you can get ONO, they have a great cable deal.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Service and speed does seem to vary widely in Spain

Bottom line is at least 4 mb download speed and unlimited usage needed for decent tv viewing, especially live sport


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> For an awful lot of us in Spain, the only option for ADSL is via old fashioned copper wires. The problem then is that the major suppliers (only really is Movistar aka Telefonica) doesn't see fit to invest in their infrastructure - or not enough anyway.
> 
> If you live too far from an exchange, like we do, then you will get less than 1Mb of service! The ONLY (realistic) option then is to use WiMax - we get a steady 6Mb but could get 20 if we wanted to pay the extra.


I will need to check to see if we can upgrade to 20, that would be the icing on the cake. 6 is good, it certainly allows you to do plenty but it does lack a bit when it comes to the better streams.
If I can get 20 then the only thing that would make me switch is fiber optic.
When/if we move we will take the WiMax with us despite the house already having a movistar connection.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

maxd said:


> What really interests me is how you are one of the very few people who can make money consistently from gambling


It's not really gambling. The people who do this [in-running betting] don't know the names of the horses or the riders, and they don't study form. They just watch, and click.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

It's good to know that the broadband speeds are pretty good on both ADSL and over the air connections, that's put my mind at rest. Thanks for that everyone.
I always have a little giggle and a smile when people say 'oh you make money from gambling, you must have the luck of the devil' or 'you gamble? how do you win ALL the time?' but as horlics says it's not really gambling at all and it really is risk free. And it's not just horses, you can do it with any sport and you don't need to know anything about anything. I've only been doing for it a while but there are many people out there who have been doing it for years and years and make quite a good living at it. One thing's for sure though, it'll never make me rich but it allows me not to have to go out to work and I can live comfortably.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigerlillie said:


> It's good to know that the broadband speeds are pretty good on both ADSL and over the air connections, that's put my mind at rest. Thanks for that everyone.
> I always have a little giggle and a smile when people say 'oh you make money from gambling, you must have the luck of the devil' or 'you gamble? how do you win ALL the time?' but as horlics says it's not really gambling at all and it really is risk free. And it's not just horses, you can do it with any sport and you don't need to know anything about anything. I've only been doing for it a while but there are many people out there who have been doing it for years and years and make quite a good living at it. One thing's for sure though, it'll never make me rich but it allows me not to have to go out to work and I can live comfortably.


Can I be your secretary?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

maxd said:


> I have a wifi connection with a dish, no probs also as long as you have a good line of site to the tower it is fine.
> 
> What really interests me is how you are one of the very few people who can make money consistently from gambling


I have a bit more time now....

Max, there are many many people doing this, it's not a few. They make money because they see what's happening before the majority of the punters see it happen.

Some people rent a box with an Internet connection at a racecourse. Some people sit in a room elsewhere with a fast TV feed. And average Joe watches AtTheRaces (a Sky TV channel) in his lounge. Average Joe is anything between 5 and 8 seconds behind the other guys. Average Joe gets fleeced.

Note, I am talking about the "pros" I know, I don't know if the Op takes advantage of these methods.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm not quite up to that level yet (I have a long way to go before I get to that level) and don't really play in running because I'm not confident enough. I just tend to back and lay, and like I said it's ALL sports you can do it with not just the horses and you'd be surprised at just how many sports there are out there to do this system with. As you say quite rightly average joe gets fleeced either because he doesn't know what he is doing or just doesn't have the right software.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Tigerlillie said:


> I'm not quite up to that level yet (I have a long way to go before I get to that level) and don't really play in running because I'm not confident enough. I just tend to back and lay, and like I said it's ALL sports you can do it with not just the horses and you'd be surprised at just how many sports there are out there to do this system with. As you say quite rightly average joe gets fleeced either because he doesn't know what he is doing or just doesn't have the right software.


If average Joe is getting fleeced then it's not risk free to the punter. And if it were risk free to the punter then surely the bookies would be getting fleeced instead.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

There are no bookies. Things have changed.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

oronero, this is your fault, you brought up that horrible word GAMBLING lol lol.... I do not gamble in the sense that I place a bet and hope for the best. That is what I don't do. To explain it in very simple terms, I back a bet for x to win, then I lay a bet for x to lose or draw....are you with me so far?....so, if x wins I win and if x loses or draws I STILL WIN. I don't lose ANY money at all, I might not make as much if I lose on the win bet but I still make money on the lose bet. However, you still need to know what you are doing to a certain extent and there is software and programmes and people who provide services to help you.


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## Keyz (Jan 10, 2015)

Tigerlillie said:


> oronero, this is your fault, you brought up that horrible word GAMBLING lol lol.... I do not gamble in the sense that I place a bet and hope for the best. That is what I don't do. To explain it in very simple terms, I back a bet for x to win, then I lay a bet for x to lose or draw....are you with me so far?....so, if x wins I win and if x loses or draws I STILL WIN. I don't lose ANY money at all, I might not make as much if I lose on the win bet but I still make money on the lose bet. However, you still need to know what you are doing to a certain extent and there is software and programmes and people who provide services to help you.


This is interesting... I usually place bets on football every week and win quite a few times although not enough to live off. Usually gives me a free night out but, I have looked at that way of betting before. As in, how much I would need to bet on each outcome to cover my original amount. If you look at it that way, then I suppose you cant lose. Im assuming you must place quite a bit of money on in the first place in order for you to earn enough to live off it.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Tigerlillie said:


> oronero, this is your fault, you brought up that horrible word GAMBLING lol lol.... I do not gamble in the sense that I place a bet and hope for the best. That is what I don't do. To explain it in very simple terms, I back a bet for x to win, then I lay a bet for x to lose or draw....are you with me so far?....so, if x wins I win and if x loses or draws I STILL WIN. I don't lose ANY money at all, I might not make as much if I lose on the win bet but I still make money on the lose bet. However, you still need to know what you are doing to a certain extent and there is software and programmes and people who provide services to help you.


OK but if you are betting directly against someone else then for you to win then other person/people has to lose. It's a zero sum game. If you are making money I suspect it's because you're getting information first (as has been mentioned). It's how Rothschild made his fortune on the Napoleonic wars (he used carrier pigeons) and it's how traders make money on the stock market.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

It's very different to how traders make money on the stock market, unless there's insider trading going on.

It works like this. Betting exchanges have done away with the book maker, they're systems where punter goes against punter. I watch the 6 runners leave the start line and straight away 3 drop back, so I LAY a bet, which is to say, I bet they won't win. After a little while, another horse drops back, so I LAY him too. If one suddenly comes through, I BACK him, so that in the event he wins my earlier LAYS on him have been cancelled out.

I do this while watching the action between 5 to 8 seconds ahead of thousands of other punters.

Is it zero risk - No. If I make a mistake when clicking something, I might lose. If my pictures are suddenly delayed, I might lose. And there can be other issues too. But by and large, people win and win and win. I know people who do this, it's their only "job".

As Tiger said, there are software packages. One handy feature being the 'panic button' which automatically places bets to zero your overall exposure (apart from a tiny transaction fee), for those times when all 6 look like crossing the line at the same time


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Keyz said:


> This is interesting... I usually place bets on football every week and win quite a few times although not enough to live off. Usually gives me a free night out but, I have looked at that way of betting before. As in, how much I would need to bet on each outcome to cover my original amount. If you look at it that way, then I suppose you cant lose. Im assuming you must place quite a bit of money on in the first place in order for you to earn enough to live off it.


My mate makes between 200 and 300 quid a day, but there are times when he has 1500 quid exposure on a single race. It would take a mighty f*** up on his part or technical issue for him to lose it, but technically he's exposed.

I don't want to give the impression this is easy. He would let me use his facilities tomorrow but having seen these guys in action, I don't think I could do it. Plenty try and give up. You need a lightning brain and lighting fingers to do this well.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> It's very different to how traders make money on the stock market, unless there's insider trading going on.
> 
> ...


They make (and lose) money in various ways. One of those ways is to simply have the fastest connection to the exchanges, with the fastest automated trading algorithms, so they are acting slightly ahead of everyone else. The ability to to "see the future" by only a millisecond ahead of everyone else can make all the difference if you are performing thousands of trades a day. There's a bit of an tech arms race going on at the moment, and the regulators are considering stepping in.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I think the similarities are in the way they can offset risk by placing an opposite bet. I didn't think of that when I replied to you but then realised that's probably what you meant. I'm not convinced about any form of seeing the future, the race is in terms of how fast things happen when after a key is pressed.


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

Tigerlillie said:


> *oronero, this is your fault, you brought up that horrible word GAMBLING* lol lol.... I do not gamble in the sense that I place a bet and hope for the best. That is what I don't do. To explain it in very simple terms, I back a bet for x to win, then I lay a bet for x to lose or draw....are you with me so far?....so, if x wins I win and if x loses or draws I STILL WIN. I don't lose ANY money at all, I might not make as much if I lose on the win bet but I still make money on the lose bet. However, you still need to know what you are doing to a certain extent and there is software and programmes and people who provide services to help you.


I am glad to have been a form of help to you...at least you didn't get the more common response of don't do it! 

With the information that you yourself have divulged I expect to see an increase in this gambling malarky...all them Spanish unemployed families will be able to put some grub on the table!


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

Chopera said:


> They make (and lose) money in various ways. One of those ways is to simply have the fastest connection to the exchanges, with the fastest automated trading algorithms, so they are acting slightly ahead of everyone else. The ability to to "see the future" by only a millisecond ahead of everyone else can make all the difference if you are performing thousands of trades a day. There's a bit of an tech arms race going on at the moment, and the regulators are considering stepping in.


I was reading about these transactions basically making the conventional form of trading obsolete, unless as you have highlighted that the regulators step in....interesting times.


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