# Tourist or resident?



## MovingGirl (Jun 9, 2012)

Hello all, I've recently joined the board after being a lurker reading posts for some time and was hoping for some advice. 

I know it is a pretty perennial question and one that seems to be cropping up even more after recent changes to residential requirements but I'd really appreciate some opinions on residency rules as I am just about to visit Spain for what could be an extended period. 

I usually live in Kent, UK (where I was born) and have a home there that I do not intend to give up. 
I was recently made redundant and after a bit of a nasty year I need some time away.
I have been offered the chance to be a 'house guest' at a property, there would be no formal tenancy as it is the second home of someone living in the UK who cannot visit at the moment due to family commitments. 
If I understand correctly for the first three months I am a 'tourist' and need do no more than pack my EHIC, buy travel insurance and enjoy, as all I am doing is having an extended holiday. 

After that - what are my options? 
If I fly back to the UK (as I may well need/want to do as I have family here) does the three months reset itself? 
I am not trying to cheat any system, I have a home in the UK that I consider my real home and only really just want an extended break. 

Looking at the forums, it seems that tax, healthcare and income are the things that I need to get straight. 
As to income, I will be spending some of my savings so won't be working. I saw mention of having to prove that I have a certain monthly income but this seems a bit bizarre for a holiday; my six month visa to India a few years ago never asked for such assurances. 
I am happy to arrange private healthcare if appropriate (although I don't have any longstanding issues) presumably this can be done via a Bupa type deal supplemented by travel insurance to cover repatriation in the event of something more serious like an accident. 

If I stay for a longer period what is the reality of needing residential paperwork? I don't intend to drive, I won't be earning any money and I won't be claiming any support. 
At this time I would guess that the longest I would be staying would be for approximately a year, after that I am likely to return to the UK or if I have really settled to the change would then consider making the change to a more permanent set up.

If I don't own property or a car what would I need paperwork for? 

Thank you everyone in advance (hopefully they'll be a time when I'm passing on advice to newbies from Spain  )


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

MovingGirl said:


> Hello all, I've recently joined the board after being a lurker reading posts for some time and was hoping for some advice.
> 
> I know it is a pretty perennial question and one that seems to be cropping up even more after recent changes to residential requirements but I'd really appreciate some opinions on residency rules as I am just about to visit Spain for what could be an extended period.
> 
> ...


Hello!
As far as I know...
To be issued with a NIE (Número de identidad de Extranjeros) after 90 days is a legal requirement whether you think you need it or not. It's not difficult to get. Nor is it expensive. You may spend time queuing. I don't know if the clock resets after going back to the UK, but I think not.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hello!
> As far as I know...
> To be issued with a NIE (Número de identidad de Extranjeros) after 90 days is a legal requirement whether you think you need it or not. It's not difficult to get. Nor is it expensive. You may spend time queuing. I don't know if the clock resets after going back to the UK, but I think not.



But surely, if she goes home for a couple of days (say) and then comes back again, why would she want or even need an NIE?



I would say "don't worry" - treat this as an extended holiday but make sure that you have proof of visits back home and proof of living in UK. Just in the very unlikely event that you are asked to prove you are not a resident.


Personally, I think people worry about this too much (typically British!).


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

There are thousands of Brits (and other nationalities) who visit Spain every year in motorhomes and stay for many months (sometimes 7-8 months or more) without any difficulties. How right (or wrong) their visits are is not something that seems to bother the authorities. Not only are the people here for longer than they (officially) should be but also their vehicles outstay the time for regulations. Is anyone going to stop them coming and spending their money here. I don´t think so. In fact campsites offer big discounts for the longer they stay.

Come out to Spain for the first three months and take it from there. You will be very unlucky to have to prove anything except maybe show your passport on the odd occasion.

Hopefully you will get more info from the experts on the forum and I will be interested to read their comments.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I think as long as you have a UK address, you probably wont need an NIE number or residencia if dont buy anything "permanent" (ie car, house, furniture...) then you shoud be ok. Make sure you have your EHIC for emergency healthcare, but be warned that ongoing treatment would have to be paid for

we're planning to rent in Spain for 4 months next winter (as many millions do) and I'm assuming that it wont be a problem

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

All the above may be true, but to look at it from another point of view, why wouldn't you want an NIE? I'd agree, you don't need to "worry about it", but what are the advantages? I can only think of a disadvantage ie it's illegal (leaving aside the idea of you probably wouldn't get "caught") I'm not accusing, just wondering what the thinking is behind not getting an NIE.
PS Jojo - you've already got your NIE, so it doesn't apply to you.


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

But can a visitor get an NIE no?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jaws101 said:


> But can a visitor get an NIE no?


yes, a non-resident can get a NIE - you can't buy property without one

but what Pesky is referring to is the resident cert., which comes with a NIE number, too - and for that you now need proof of healthcare provision & income

after 90 consecutive days here you are required to register as resident - & I can't see any reason why you wouldn't tbh

afaik though, if you are here for 89 days, leave then come back, the clock _does _reset

tax residency on the other hand is automatic if you are here for more than 182 days in a calendar year


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> All the above may be true, but to look at it from another point of view, why wouldn't you want an NIE? I'd agree, you don't need to "worry about it", but what are the advantages? I can only think of a disadvantage ie it's illegal (leaving aside the idea of you probably wouldn't get "caught") I'm not accusing, just wondering what the thinking is behind not getting an NIE.
> PS Jojo - you've already got your NIE, so it doesn't apply to you.




Sorry, but you'll have to explain the benefits of the OP having an NIE - I can't think of one. All I can see is the inconvenience of trying to get one.



They have to carry a passport anyway so what does having an NIE do for them? They have already stated that they won't be buying anything important.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Sorry, but you'll have to explain the benefits of the OP having an NIE - I can't think of one. All I can see is the inconvenience of trying to get one.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to carry a passport anyway so what does having an NIE do for them? They have already stated that they won't be buying anything important.


But snikpoh, I already know the advantages of having an NIE, although is being legal and following the rules of the country you're living in an _*advantage*_ ?
What I'm asking is that somebody explain the advantages of not having one.
I reiterate, the OP can do as she/ he thinks fit, but I personally am interested in knowing the reasoning behind not having an NIE certificate. Xabia has said she can't see a reason for not having one, me neither...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, a non-resident can get a NIE - you can't buy property without one


We did, we bought a house and finca, we used our passports, because at that time we were not residents. No one, estate agent, notario, property registration office asked for N.I.E.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> We did, we bought a house and finca, we used our passports, because at that time we were not residents. No one, estate agent, notario, property registration office asked for N.I.E.


_everything _sems to be different on your island!!



are you _sure _you really live in Spain


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I can give you an advantage of having an N.I.E.

Ferry and air fares all over Spain at almost half price for the residents of the Baleares, Canarias, and the two colonies on the African coast


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> _everything _sems to be different on your island!!
> 
> 
> 
> are you _sure _you really live in Spain


No not on this Island, we had to travel to Tenerife for the Notario.

Perhaps this is the norm and it is you in Iberian Spain that are different

We live in a Spanish colony!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> All the above may be true, but to look at it from another point of view, why wouldn't you want an NIE? I'd agree, you don't need to "worry about it", but what are the advantages? I can only think of a disadvantage ie it's illegal (leaving aside the idea of you probably wouldn't get "caught") I'm not accusing, just wondering what the thinking is behind not getting an NIE.
> PS Jojo - you've already got your NIE, so it doesn't apply to you.


I suppose it's because once you become officially resident in Spain, you lose certain entitlements in the UK, and you then have to reverse the process if you go back to the UK for for an extended period? 

If you are coming and going regularly between the two countries for three or even six-month periods, have your main home in the UK, with your passport for ID, EHIC for healthcare and aren't buying property, I can't really see the point either. As Jo says, thousands of people winter in Spain for over three months without the need to become resident.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

But having an NIE isn't the same as being resident, is it, so you wouldn't lose any UK benefits you might need???

My son and dil have NIEs which they needed to buy property but they don't have residency.

I don't know what advantages having a NIE would confer in this situation but I like to be 'tidy'.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I suppose it's because once you become officially resident in Spain, you lose certain entitlements in the UK, and you then have to reverse the process if you go back to the UK for for an extended period?
> 
> If you are coming and going regularly between the two countries for three or even six-month periods, have your main home in the UK, with your passport for ID, EHIC for healthcare and aren't buying property, I can't really see the point either. As Jo says, thousands of people winter in Spain for over three months without the need to become resident.


yes, if you're coming & going a lot for a few months at a time, then it _does _seem somewhat daft to keep registering/unregistering here or there


but the OP said she will probably be here for a year - somewhat different imo


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I suppose it's because once you become officially resident in Spain, you lose certain entitlements in the UK, and you then have to reverse the process if you go back to the UK for for an extended period?
> 
> If you are coming and going regularly between the two countries for three or even six-month periods, have your main home in the UK, with your passport for ID, EHIC for healthcare and aren't buying property, I can't really see the point either. As Jo says, thousands of people winter in Spain for over three months without the need to become resident.


Yes, that's true.

And I think I have confused issues by talking about NIE. (For me they've always come together, but it's true that it's not necessarily the case.)

So, if the OP is going to continue to go from one place to another and their main place of residence is in the UK, maybe it's better not to become officially resident here.

But, should the OP decide to set up camp here on a permanent basis...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, that's true.
> 
> And I think I have confused issues by talking about NIE. (For me they've always come together, but it's true that it's not necessarily the case.)
> 
> ...



Ah, ha! The NIE and the 'green sheet' (residencia) are completely different beasties.

For someone moving around and not making any purchases, an NIE serves no purpose. 

But then neither does the residencia.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

If I was the OP, I would be more concerned about losing residency status for healthcare etc in the UK.

It is pretty clear now, that _if they want to_, those who stamp forms can deem you non-resident in the UK if your leave is extended over 90 days.

On the other hand, the requirement to sign on the foreigners register (in all but name residencia) is mandatory after 90 days in Spain, but, once you leave Spain and return, those 90 days begin again at day one.

So, if I were the OP, I would live in Spain for up to 89 days at a time and make visits to the UK in the meantime.
And, as all passports now have that chip which is scanned at airports and ferries, I would actually do this, rather than rely upon travel receipts.

Tax is another issue however....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> If I was the OP, I would be more concerned about losing residency status for healthcare etc in the UK.
> 
> It is pretty clear now, that _if they want to_, those who stamp forms can deem you non-resident in the UK if your leave is extended over 90 days.
> 
> ...


Probably a daft question...but as we crossed from the CR to Germany to France and into Spain without seeing a single Border Policeman let alone having our passports examined.....depending of course on convenience and proximity to a border...would it be sufficient for someone to cross into Portugal or France and return with proof of visit of some kind, such as a receipt for petrol or some transaction?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Ah, ha! The NIE and the 'green sheet' (residencia) are completely different beasties.
> 
> For someone moving around and not making any purchases, an NIE serves no purpose.
> 
> But then neither does the residencia.


Exactly, but I'm not really thinking about whether it serves a _*purpose*_ or not. It's what you're supposed to have and if you do get caught out...

Anyway, the replies to this thread confirm my feeling that there is more to this than one might think at first.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Exactly, but I'm not really thinking about whether it serves a _*purpose*_ or not. It's what you're supposed to have and if you do get caught out...
> 
> Anyway, the replies to this thread confirm my feeling that there is more to this than one might think at first.


it's pretty straighforward.......tourists don't need a NIE - unless they decide to buy a property

if you're here more than 90 consecutive days you have register as resident - then you get a NIE anyway

_*however*_ - an EU citizen can go back & forth as much as they like as long as they are here less than 89 days at a time

(at least that's _this _week)


_tax residency _is a different thing entirely though


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Probably a daft question...but as we crossed from the CR to Germany to France and into Spain without seeing a single Border Policeman let alone having our passports examined.....depending of course on convenience and proximity to a border...would it be sufficient for someone to cross into Portugal or France and return with proof of visit of some kind, such as a receipt for petrol or some transaction?


In that case, proof in the form of receipts would (hopefully!) be sufficient. 

But to and from the UK may be a different matter.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Its an interesting one, cos there are so many people who spend their winters in Spain every year - "winterers", "Swallows" - whatever you call them, most spend around 4 - 5 months in Spain, I'm going to be doing it this coming winter and I know of loads of others. I'm ok, cos I have an NIE number and indeed a residencia (altho not with the right address). I also need to get my EHIC up to date, but the friends I'll be staying with (we're renting a place together and they're planning to stay for 6 months) have none of those things?????!!!!

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Its an interesting one, cos there are so many people who spend their winters in Spain every year - "winterers", "Swallows" - whatever you call them, most spend around 4 - 5 months in Spain, I'm going to be doing it this coming winter and I know of loads of others. I'm ok, cos I have an NIE number and indeed a residencia (altho not with the right address). I also need to get my EHIC up to date, but the friends I'll be staying with (we're renting a place together and they're planning to stay for 6 months) have none of those things?????!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


it IS an odd one


shouldn't you have 'unresidented' yourself :confused2:

and you know you can't use your EHIC here if you're resident


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> it IS an odd one
> 
> 
> shouldn't you have 'unresidented' yourself :confused2:
> ...


 It is a strange one and no I didnt "unresident" myself - heck it was enough trouble to change when I lost my certificate and moved house!!! I assumed that it would become null and void when I no longer had a Spanish address???!!!! So does that mean if I get a EHIC that I'll not be able to use it????? Does that mean I'll need to fill out an S1 form, since I will still be working in the UK - technically?? (My trip to Spain will be by taking all my annual leave at once???, but still employed in the UK)

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Can I unresident myself now????

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> It is a strange one and no I didnt "unresident" myself - heck it was enough trouble to change when I lost my certificate and moved house!!! I assumed that it would become null and void when I no longer had a Spanish address???!!!! So does that mean if I get a EHIC that I'll not be able to use it????? Does that mean I'll need to fill out an S1 form, since I will still be working in the UK - technically?? (My trip to Spain will be by taking all my annual leave at once???, but still employed in the UK)
> 
> Jo xxx


I think maybe you'd best unregister when you come over - especially as you're going to be back & forth a fair bit


you'll be on holiday, won't you - so you can use your EHIC


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

jojo said:


> It is a strange one and no I didnt "unresident" myself - heck it was enough trouble to change when I lost my certificate and moved house!!! I assumed that it would become null and void when I no longer had a Spanish address???!!!!
> Jo xxx


No. You do need to "unresident" yourself.
Not only because you wont be able to use your EHIC, but also because you could still be seen as a Spanish Tax Resident.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> it's pretty straighforward.......tourists don't need a NIE - unless they decide to buy a property
> 
> if you're here more than 90 consecutive days you have register as resident - then you get a NIE anyway
> 
> ...


Well, that's what I was aiming for xabia. Somebody giving the information succinctly and without saying what you can get away with, or whether you're going to get caught, or what you'll gain from having it.

It's not what you'll get from having residencia or an nie come to that, it's what your legal obligations are. If you want to pass that by it's up to you, but you should know what you're supposed to do before you decide to not do it, I think.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, that's what I was aiming for xabia. Somebody giving the information succinctly and without saying what you can get away with, or whether you're going to get caught, or what you'll gain from having it.
> 
> It's not what you'll get from having residencia or an nie come to that, it's what your legal obligations are. If you want to pass that by it's up to you, but you should know what you're supposed to do before you decide to not do it, I think.



Which is what I said in post #3 - keep 'popping' home for a couple of days. Do not stay here for 90 days.

Although back then the discussion was about NIE and not residencia of course :confused2:


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

Solwriter said:


> No. You do need to "unresident" yourself.
> Not only because you wont be able to use your EHIC, but also because you could still be seen as a Spanish Tax Resident.


Could you also, technically, not be entitled to NHS etc. in Britain if you are still regarded as a Spanish resident???


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jaws101 said:


> Could you also, technically, not be entitled to NHS etc. in Britain if you are still regarded as a Spanish resident???


yes, technically that could happen


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm also a bit worried about this. This stuff is very messy for anyone who is intending to spend only a short time in Spain. If you're working in Spain, do you absolutely have to get residencia? Even if you're going back to the UK every 6-8 weeks? 

I'm being treated for a minor condition on the NHS and I was told by my consultant just to come back to London when/if I need a checkup. He said it would be very silly to have to go back to square one in another country's healthcare system when the move is just temporary. I've lived abroad several times before and have never had a problem just returning to the UK. I've never really worried about residence issues and it's never really come up. Who would really check if you were officially resident in Spain? I had an issue when I came back to the UK to do my Masters because I'd been 'residing' in another EU country, but when I showed bank statements, doctors letters etc that showed my primary address was in the UK and that I was regularly back and forth, it was all fine. I wasn't trying to to screw over any system or get out of paying tax or anything (tax rate is 42% in said country!) - I just had a permanent address in the UK and was working temporarily elsewhere.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Clemmie00 said:


> I'm also a bit worried about this. This stuff is very messy for anyone who is intending to spend only a short time in Spain. If you're working in Spain, do you absolutely have to get residencia? Even if you're going back to the UK every 6-8 weeks?
> 
> I'm being treated for a minor condition on the NHS and I was told by my consultant just to come back to London when/if I need a checkup. He said it would be very silly to have to go back to square one in another country's healthcare system when the move is just temporary. I've lived abroad several times before and have never had a problem just returning to the UK. I've never really worried about residence issues and it's never really come up. Who would really check if you were officially resident in Spain? I had an issue when I came back to the UK to do my Masters because I'd been 'residing' in another EU country, but when I showed bank statements, doctors letters etc that showed my primary address was in the UK and that I was regularly back and forth, it was all fine. I wasn't trying to to screw over any system or get out of paying tax or anything (tax rate is 42% in said country!) - I just had a permanent address in the UK and was working temporarily elsewhere.


The first thing I would say is did you know about this?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...uirements-uk-citizens-spain-april-2012-a.html

I'll let someone else who's done things more recently talk about residency.


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The first thing I would say is did you know about this?
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...uirements-uk-citizens-spain-april-2012-a.html
> 
> I'll let someone else who's done things more recently talk about residency.


Yes, I did. Complicates things even further! If my request for residency is declined, I'll just leave, but obviously I'd need about a month's notice for my flatshare, for my employer (if I have one).....would it be OK to stay a few weeks and sort that out? How would anyone really know?

I've never been questioned about the length of time I've spent in an EU country or questioned about what I was doing there. I stayed in Belgium for 6 months and nobody asked me anything - I did have loads of flights elsewhere during that time though (so perhaps the residency thing 'reset'?)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Solwriter said:


> No. You do need to "unresident" yourself.
> Not only because you wont be able to use your EHIC, but also because you could still be seen as a Spanish Tax Resident.


Only if I spend more than 183 days, which I wont

Jo xxx


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

*Clemmie*,
I understand completely your confusion and frustration with all this.
I also have a minor health condition which flairs up now and again. It is actually the result of a bodged operation in the UK and extremely complicated to explain to a Spanish doctor (or any doctor, in fact, who hasn't got my notes sitting in front of them!).
So I do understand your consultant saying it would be much easier for you to visit him for treatment than to start all over again with another doctor.

I certainly do not think you are trying to cheat any country out of their money - just trying to do what is best for you. And I do think that the whole system of entitlement to healthcare under the EU is in a total mess.

But as the effects of financial crisis hit both the UK and Spain, it is getting harder to exist under the radar. And frustrating and downright inconvenient as the rules about days spent here and others spent there appear to be, they are rules we increasingly have to live with, even when we disagree with them.

Hence my first answer.
Stay in Spain for up to 89 days at a time and make regular trips to the UK.

If you work in Spain that will produce more problems to sort out, especially if you spend 183 days or more in one year in Spain. So, even taking breaks from work every 6 weeks could still leave you as a fiscal resident here.
There again, as it is pretty hard to get work in Spain right now, that may not apply anyway.

So I do understand your feelings.
And I wish you luck whatever you decide to do.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Only if I spend more than 183 days, which I wont
> 
> Jo xxx


in theory.....

you might not _actually_ spend more than 182/3 days here, but if you are in the system as being resident they will be expecting a tax return

much easier, surely, to get the paperwork straight asap, than try to unravel things later & try to prove that you haven't been living here


OK - that should be easy enough for you to do - but why take the chance of having to?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Clemmie00 said:


> I'm also a bit worried about this. This stuff is very messy for anyone who is intending to spend only a short time in Spain. If you're working in Spain, do you absolutely have to get residencia? Even if you're going back to the UK every 6-8 weeks?
> 
> I'm being treated for a minor condition on the NHS and I was told by my consultant just to come back to London when/if I need a checkup. He said it would be very silly to have to go back to square one in another country's healthcare system when the move is just temporary. I've lived abroad several times before and have never had a problem just returning to the UK. I've never really worried about residence issues and it's never really come up. Who would really check if you were officially resident in Spain? I had an issue when I came back to the UK to do my Masters because I'd been 'residing' in another EU country, but when I showed bank statements, doctors letters etc that showed my primary address was in the UK and that I was regularly back and forth, it was all fine. I wasn't trying to to screw over any system or get out of paying tax or anything (tax rate is 42% in said country!) - I just had a permanent address in the UK and was working temporarily elsewhere.


if you're here less than 90 days at a time, you don't need to register as resident, and can use your EHIC card......many people do just that, indeed many people actually live here full time & use the EHIC - totally illegally, but they do - although the spanish are getting wise to this & cracking down if it appears that you could be living here



Clemmie00 said:


> Yes, I did. Complicates things even further! If my request for residency is declined, I'll just leave, but obviously I'd need about a month's notice for my flatshare, for my employer (if I have one).....would it be OK to stay a few weeks and sort that out? How would anyone really know?
> 
> I've never been questioned about the length of time I've spent in an EU country or questioned about what I was doing there. I stayed in Belgium for 6 months and nobody asked me anything - I did have loads of flights elsewhere during that time though (so perhaps the residency thing 'reset'?)


yes, it does 'reset' if you stay less than 90 days at a time


the other complication is if you are working - you'd need a SS number, & you need a resident cert/NIE number & padrón to get that


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> if you're here less than 90 days at a time, you don't need to register as resident, and can use your EHIC card......many people do just that, indeed many people actually live here full time & use the EHIC - totally illegally, but they do - although the spanish are getting wise to this & cracking down if it appears that you could be living here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I will definitely be leaving the country via the airport at least every 89 days. I was planning to just register (if they let me) - I can't think how that would be much of an issue if I were to return to the UK. I know that for certain jobs you have to have spent the past 5 years as a resident of the UK but I can't see that ever happening in my case anyway. 

Can I start working without the SS number? Doesn't it take a while to come through?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

However, if you make repeated use of an EHIC over a period of time, the UK authorities assume that you are living here and using it illegally and refuse to reimburse the Spanish health system. So many cheats have done this in the past that in some places the EHIC is no longer accepted even for genuine short stay people.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Clemmie00 said:


> Well, I will definitely be leaving the country via the airport at least every 89 days. I was planning to just register (if they let me) - I can't think how that would be much of an issue if I were to return to the UK. I know that for certain jobs you have to have spent the past 5 years as a resident of the UK but I can't see that ever happening in my case anyway.
> 
> Can I start working without the SS number? Doesn't it take a while to come through?


a SS number doesn't take long at all (same day in some areas) - sometimes you can start work without it, it depends on the company

I'm confused now though - why would you be leaving the country every 89 days if you're planning to register anyway & are planning/hoping to work :confused2:


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> However, if you make repeated use of an EHIC over a period of time, the UK authorities assume that you are living here and using it illegally and refuse to reimburse the Spanish health system. So many cheats have done this in the past that in some places the EHIC is no longer accepted even for genuine short stay people.


Not disagreeing with you Baldilocks. I have read this on forums before, but have never seen anyone give an actual example of being refused care under the EHIC when carrying it legally.
So do you have any examples of this?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> Not disagreeing with you Baldilocks. I have read this on forums before, but have never seen anyone give an actual example of being refused care under the EHIC when carrying it legally.
> So do you have any examples of this?


It has been reported elsewhere, some time last year (hence can't remember where/when/source) in Valencia and Alicante because the NHS/TVP were not reimbursing. It is extremely difficult to prove that one is using it legitimately when passports are no longer stamped to show that one is only on a temporary stay. One case, I heard of, occured in respect of a person who makes frequent visits to Spain (i.e. several times a year) on business and had occasion to need medical attention on a number of occasions so it appeared that he was here "all the time", i.e. a resident.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> It has been reported elsewhere, some time last year (hence can't remember where/when/source) in Valencia and Alicante because the NHS/TVP were not reimbursing. It is extremely difficult to prove that one is using it legitimately when passports are no longer stamped to show that one is only on a temporary stay. One case, I heard of, occured in respect of a person who makes frequent visits to Spain (i.e. several times a year) on business and had occasion to need medical attention on a number of occasions so it appeared that he was here "all the time", i.e. a resident.


Ah ok, thanks for answering that. 

I understand when a hospital or health centre is refused money from the UK because the EHIC holder is considered (by UK decision) to be resident in Spain. 

But I was wondering if there were any examples of anyone using a EHIC on holiday being refused treatment point blank at the Spanish end, even before they checked to see if their bills would be paid by the UK.

So in that case, the Valencia and Alicante examples would be worrying for anyone holidaying in those areas and relying on a EHIC if they required emergency treatment.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Ah ok, thanks for answering that.
> 
> I understand when a hospital or health centre is refused money from the UK because the EHIC holder is considered (by UK decision) to be resident in Spain.
> 
> ...



last year after my dad had been here 3 months the local health centre refused treatment with his EHIC card - they said he had to become resident & get an S1 (actually they asked for the E-whateveritwasyearsago - but they meant S1)

I had already in fact sent off for it so they agreed to treat him - I reckon they owed me anyway for all the free translating I do there every time I walk in


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> last year after my dad had been here 3 months the local health centre refused treatment with his EHIC card - they said he had to become resident & get an S1 (actually they asked for the E-whateveritwasyearsago - but they meant S1)
> 
> I had already in fact sent off for it so they agreed to treat him - I reckon they owed me anyway for all the free translating I do there every time I walk in


Thanks Xabiachica,
That's the kind of example I was thinking of.
Had the local health centre treated your father over that 3 month period, or did they just decide on their own that he had been living in Spain longer than 3 months?

Sorry to keep on about this, but there is so much different information out there and many scare stories about people not being able to use their EHICs even when they are within the 3 month visit period, that clearing up this situation would be good. And it would be helpful when giving advice on a thread like this.
(not that I think it would be possible to get clear and absolute guidelines on this or anything else at the present state of flux...)


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Any examples from Andalucía? I suspect there is lot of variation between the _autonomos_, and even between towns.

I know people round here who have been resident for years and they are still able to use their EHICs. One woman recently had a hysterectomy done on hers!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Thanks Xabiachica,
> That's the kind of example I was thinking of.
> Had the local health centre treated your father over that 3 month period, or did they just decide on their own that he had been living in Spain longer than 3 months?
> 
> ...


he had been having treatment - the hospital here in fact had diagnosed him with a lung condition which had gone undiagnosed for years apparently in the UK (he became really sick about a week after he arrived) - he had been having antibiotics whenever he got an infection & various other stuff - including oxygen - otherwise I guess they wouldn't have even known he'd been here 3 months


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> he had been having treatment - the hospital here in fact had diagnosed him with a lung condition which had gone undiagnosed for years apparently in the UK (he became really sick about a week after he arrived) - he had been having antibiotics whenever he got an infection & various other stuff - including oxygen - otherwise I guess they wouldn't have even known he'd been here 3 months


Thanks Xabiachica.
Sorry to pry and sorry about your dad too.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The fact is that a not inconsiderable number of people have abused the system for as long as there have been EHICs and the old system, before that, as well. Quite rightly, the Spanish authorities are saying, enough is enough. No more taking the p*ss!

The even more annoying fact is that those who cheat the system here would be among the first to complain if they were back "home" and immigrants, there, tried to cheat the system.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> The fact is that a not inconsiderable number of people have abused the system for as long as there have been EHICs and the old system, before that, as well. Quite rightly, the Spanish authorities are saying, enough is enough. No more taking the p*ss!
> 
> The even more annoying fact is that those who cheat the system here would be among the first to complain if they were back "home" and immigrants, there, tried to cheat the system.


Oh I agree.

But it would be nice to know exactly how far Spanish authorities are going with this, when there is a real emergency and the person involved is carrying a EHIC within the rules and has no intention of cheating the system.


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> a SS number doesn't take long at all (same day in some areas) - sometimes you can start work without it, it depends on the company
> 
> I'm confused now though - why would you be leaving the country every 89 days if you're planning to register anyway & are planning/hoping to work :confused2:


I'm going to look for work. If I don't find it and end up just living off my savings and doing Spanish classes, I'm obviously not going to register as a resident if I don't have to. I will be going back to the UK or to visit my parents every 6-8 weeks anyway, whatever happens work wise.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Clemmie00 said:


> I'm going to look for work. If I don't find it and end up just living off my savings and doing Spanish classes, I'm obviously not going to register as a resident if I don't have to. I will be going back to the UK or to visit my parents every 6-8 weeks anyway, whatever happens work wise.


OK i'm with you now

if you _do_ find work though, you will have to register


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

*UK health care*



xabiachica said:


> yes, technically that could happen


I have a pal who moved to France in 1999. In 2006-7 he had a h/attack whilst on a Christmas visit in UK. Obviously, at the time, he was into hospital chop-chop and sorted. He was asked to return some months later to be fitted with stents.

Since then, he has been back periodically for check-ups by the UK hospital. At some point there was a rumbling about his non-UK residency status but it didn't seem to add up to anything and I believe he is still, to this day, on the books of the UK hospital Coronary Dept whilst still res in France.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chrisnation said:


> I have a pal who moved to France in 1999. In 2006-7 he had a h/attack whilst on a Christmas visit in UK. Obviously, at the time, he was into hospital chop-chop and sorted. He was asked to return some months later to be fitted with stents.
> 
> Since then, he has been back periodically for check-ups by the UK hospital. At some point there was a rumbling about his non-UK residency status but it didn't seem to add up to anything and I believe he is still, to this day, on the books of the UK hospital Coronary Dept whilst still res in France.


my husband died in hospital in the UK on his way home from a trip to the US - for complicated reasons he didn't have a SIP here or EHIC (the kids & I do) ....... the UK hospital sent me a bill for nearly 10,500 GBP......... hopefully the private medical & travel ins he had will pay it - it's still under discussion....

bottom line - he wasn't resident in the UK so we have to pay


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> my husband died in hospital in the UK on his way home from a trip to the US - for complicated reasons he didn't have a SIP here or EHIC (the kids & I do) ....... the UK hospital sent me a bill for nearly 10,500 GBP......... hopefully the private medical & travel ins he had will pay it - it's still under discussion....
> 
> bottom line - he wasn't resident in the UK so we have to pay


**** ********* You dont need that hun! Did he have a national insurance number in the UK - an old one????

Jo xxxxxxxxxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> **** ********* You dont need that hun! Did he have a national insurance number in the UK - an old one????
> 
> Jo xxxxxxxxxx


of course he had a NI number............ but that doesn't help!

if I'd lied & said he lived there they wouldn't be sending me a reminder/bill every month


mind you, I'd have had to have come up with an address........ & I'm not a very good liar & knowing my luck would have been caught & made it all so much worse!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> my husband died in hospital in the UK on his way home from a trip to the US - for complicated reasons he didn't have a SIP here or EHIC (the kids & I do) ....... the UK hospital sent me a bill for nearly 10,500 GBP......... hopefully the private medical & travel ins he had will pay it - it's still under discussion....
> 
> bottom line - he wasn't resident in the UK so we have to pay


xabiachica, that's awful 
And as Jo says, the last thing you need right now!
I really hope that the insurance company pays up soon.

But it does go to show that the UK NHS is capable of going after money just as much as the Spanish state healthcare system is.
And that no one can take free NHS healthcare for granted anymore.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> of course he had a NI number............ but that doesn't help!
> 
> if I'd lied & said he lived there they wouldn't be sending me a reminder/bill every month
> 
> ...


I'm not a good liar either, I know what you mean. There must be a way round this legally tho. Afcterall the UK is known for its "relaxed" health insurance rules. As long as you have an address....Which he must have had, even if it was a transient one???

I'm sure you've been thru it all tho - sorry, If I can help any, PM me hun

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> xabiachica, that's awful
> And as Jo says, the last thing you need right now!
> I really hope that the insurance company pays up soon.
> 
> ...


I've always been pretty vociferous against Spanish residents who use the NHS in the UK fraudulently - now I'm even more set against it, as you can imagine

it makes my blood boil when people I _know _live here full time pop back to the UK for operations & so on 



chrisnation's friend is a slightly different case, having been upfront from the start


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I'm not a good liar either, I know what you mean. There must be a way round this legally tho. Afcterall the UK is known for its "relaxed" health insurance rules. As long as you have an address....Which he must have had, even if it was a transient one???
> 
> I'm sure you've been thru it all tho - sorry, If I can help any, PM me hun
> 
> Jo xxx


actually it didn't even occur to me to lie at the time - & it wouldn't have felt right, either

there's no way round it - he wasn't resident - he was only in transit through the airport

I guess if he'd lived & gone to stay with a sister to recuperate he would have then become resident again by default though :confused2:


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> there's no way round it - he wasn't resident - he was only in transit through the airport


Then _surely_ the insurance company will have to pay up?

This actually annoys me about insurance companies.
When it comes to travel insurance, they seem to take their sweet time about paying up.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

*Just goes to show*



xabiachica said:


> my husband died in hospital in the UK on his way home from a trip to the US - for complicated reasons he didn't have a SIP here or EHIC (the kids & I do) ....... the UK hospital sent me a bill for nearly 10,500 GBP......... hopefully the private medical & travel ins he had will pay it - it's still under discussion....
> 
> bottom line - he wasn't resident in the UK so we have to pay


... how things can be wildly different from one place to another, or possibly one situation from another with no apparent difference but something minor that materially affects the outcome. Maybe my pal had an EHIC that served for the initial incident but it is amazing that the hospital has continued to treat him as if he was a UK res.

Or maybe they are totting up a GINORMOUS bill ....

Sorry to hear about your sad loss. The wrangling over the bill must be a nightmare.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chrisnation said:


> ... how things can be wildly different from one place to another, or possibly one situation from another with no apparent difference but something minor that materially affects the outcome. Maybe my pal had an EHIC that served for the initial incident but it is amazing that the hospital has continued to treat him as if he was a UK res.
> 
> Or maybe they are totting up a GINORMOUS bill ....
> 
> Sorry to hear about your sad loss. The wrangling over the bill must be a nightmare.


I'm sure the EHIC made the initial difference.......... let's hope they aren't totting up a bill - my husband's hospital stay was just over 24 hours

I'm not doing the wrangling - the insurance company can do that


& if they won't pay up the hospital can't get blood out of a stone


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

chrisnation said:


> ... how things can be wildly different from one place to another, or possibly one situation from another with no apparent difference but something minor that materially affects the outcome. Maybe my pal had an EHIC that served for the initial incident but it is amazing that the hospital has continued to treat him as if he was a UK res.
> 
> Or maybe they are totting up a GINORMOUS bill ....
> 
> Sorry to hear about your sad loss. The wrangling over the bill must be a nightmare.


A relative of ours came to visit us here a couple of years ago and injured her wrist and her spine in a car crash.
She received emergency care with her EHIC and the consultant insisted on her making follow up visits to him over a period of three months.
As the consultant had asked for this, the hospital agreed to the use of the EHIC for follow up visits and evidently the UK did as well as they were the ones who agreed to foot the bill.

As you say, it really does depend on the circumstances (and possibly what the consultant puts on his report...) and I would say it does in the UK as well.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

*Insurance payout*



xabiachica said:


> I'm sure the EHIC made the initial difference.......... let's hope they aren't totting up a bill - my husband's hospital stay was just over 24 hours
> 
> I'm not doing the wrangling - the insurance company can do that
> 
> ...


I had a little number when in the US a couple of years ago. I spent 3 1/2 days in ICU wired up like Frankenstein. They ran every test known to man to try to find out why I'd blacked out - X-rays, Cat Scans. ECG, EEGs - you name a test, they did it. Even the trickcyclist was wheeled out! Maybe I went bonkers for a couple of mins...

The final test was a biggie - cardioscopy. Results? Nada. They couldn't find a thing wrong with me.

This being a posh hospital in Poughkipsie, NY [a very well-to-do town on the Hudson] I knew that if the insurance policy didn't work for some reason, that was my house gone...

The UK agents working on the claim for the underwriters were marvellous but I did keep getting bills from the hospital while the agents' agents in the US negotiated the bill down from "he's a tourist with insurance" to what a local would pay.

The hospital accounts dept and the US agents spent almost a year batting stuff back and forward but the people this end just kept telling me it's all going along and to ignore demands for payment. I was interested to see that the 8 mile ambulance trip was almost USD900 but they did do a full set of blood tests - sugars, lipids etc - and have me wired to an ECG all the while. 

And it was sorted, as the insurance company's agents said it would be. I don't think they even sent me a bill for the GBP75 excess.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chrisnation said:


> I had a little number when in the US a couple of years ago. I spent 3 1/2 days in ICU wired up like Frankenstein. They ran every test known to man to try to find out why I'd blacked out - X-rays, Cat Scans. ECG, EEGs - you name a test, they did it. Even the trickcyclist was wheeled out! Maybe I went bonkers for a couple of mins...
> 
> The final test was a biggie - cardioscopy. Results? Nada. They couldn't find a thing wrong with me.
> 
> ...


I'm sure they'll pay up eventually - even the hospital has told me to ignore the reminders

it's a ridiculous amount of money though


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Wouldn't it all have come under 'accident & emergency ' treatment which is foc to all ? 

If not surely this would have covered him ?
"Anyone, or the spouse, civil partner or dependant child of anyone, who has lived legally in the UK for 10 continuous years at some point but who is now living in another EEA member state or in countries with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement."

It doesn't say there is a requirement to be registered WITH the EEA system , just that you have to live in a country.
From the section ;
"People Entitled to Some NHS Hospital Treatment – this is limited to treatment required for any condition that occurred after arrival in the UK (including pre-existing conditions which acutely exacerbate or need prompt treatment whilst here)."

All from here:

Are you visiting the United Kingdom? : Department of Health - Health care


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Wouldn't it all have come under 'accident & emergency ' treatment which is foc to all ?
> 
> If not surely this would have covered him ?
> "Anyone, or the spouse, civil partner or dependant child of anyone, who has lived legally in the UK for 10 continuous years at some point but who is now living in another EEA member state or in countries with which the UK has a bilateral healthcare agreement."
> ...


very interesting & potentially useful - thanks gus 

I shall pass that on to the insurance company


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> very interesting & potentially useful - thanks gus
> 
> I shall pass that on to the insurance company


If you need anything else just pm.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> If you need anything else just pm.


will do - thanks again


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This is indeed shocking. It says on the NHS website that emergency treatment is free to all.



> *Getting hospital treatment in an emergency*
> 
> If you suddenly fall ill, or an accident happens and you (or people around you) are in need of urgent medical treatment, then this will usually be dealt with in the A&E department of a hospital. You can make your own way there, but in most cases people should call 999 and ask for an ambulance to come to the scene of the incident.
> 
> In the UK, medical treatment for emergencies is always free – regardless of your nationality, how long you’ve been in the UK, or any other factors. So, for instance, if you fall, break your leg, and have to be taken in an ambulance to A&E, you won’t have to pay for the immediate NHS treatment you receive. _It’s important to note, though, that if you enter hospital through an A&E department and then need to receive care from another part of the hospital, then this further treatment may not be free for everyone._


But then it says hospital treatment is free regardless if:



> - You’re a UK state pensioner that spends up to 6 months a year living in another European Economic Area (EEA) country, but are not a resident of that country.
> 
> - You’re working in an EEA country but are paying compulsory UK national insurance contributions.
> 
> - You’ve been working abroad for no longer than 5 years, but have lived legally in the UK for ten continuous years at some point.


Who Has to Pay for NHS Treatment in the UK?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> This is indeed shocking. It says on the NHS website that emergency treatment is free to all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, you're both right - putting those two facts together I shouldn't have been sent a bill in the first place - although he was abroad more than 5 years... but that's not what gus's link said 

I have sent the info to the local ins. guy to pass on - I'll let you know what happens

thanks again both


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

*Careful now*



xabiachica said:


> yes, you're both right - putting those two facts together I shouldn't have been sent a bill in the first place - although he was abroad more than 5 years... but that's not what gus's link said
> 
> I have sent the info to the local ins. guy to pass on - I'll let you know what happens
> 
> thanks again both


I don't want to be a doomster but be careful the ins co doesn't use this stuff to refuse to pay the NHS and the NHS comes back to you for it.

I'd just let the ins co get on with it.


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## Mexberry (Dec 19, 2011)

Solwriter said:


> xabiachica, that's awful
> And as Jo says, the last thing you need right now!
> I really hope that the insurance company pays up soon.
> 
> ...


Sorry xabiachica about your loss. Perhaps you might consider getting a lawyer involved , if the insurance company refuses to pay. A knowledgable, guiding hand could reduce the stress as well as advise as to what you could expect. Good Luck.
Macberry.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chrisnation said:


> I don't want to be a doomster but be careful the ins co doesn't use this stuff to refuse to pay the NHS and the NHS comes back to you for it.
> 
> I'd just let the ins co get on with it.


that's a point...........


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Mexberry said:


> Sorry xabiachica about your loss. Perhaps you might consider getting a lawyer involved , if the insurance company refuses to pay. A knowledgable, guiding hand could reduce the stress as well as advise as to what you could expect. Good Luck.
> Macberry.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


thanks Mexberry

if it comes to that then I'll have to think about it, of course

of course, a lwayer's bill might well outweigh the hospital bill, in the end


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I got the news this morning that the insurance company has paid the medical bills :clap2:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I got the news this morning that the insurance company has paid the medical bills :clap2:



*PHEW!!!!!*

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> *PHEW!!!!!*
> 
> Jo xxx


is that a PHEW of relief................ or because it's 
REALLY HOT

















both here


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> is that a PHEW of relief................ or because it's
> REALLY HOT
> 
> both here



Relief! It aint hot here - its cold and wet 

Jo xxx


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