# new here leaving uk for SA



## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

hi - i am new so please be gentle

i have just spent lots of time reading through posts and threads that seem to relate to my interest in being here - esp the long one - crime centre of the world

hubby grew up in south africa, returned to the uk (he was born here) in the late 80's
i have visited a couple of times and it is an awesome county - i love everything about it

but

now he is murmuring about returning back and it scares me a little especially reading things like i have about the crime. my outlaws are still out there and have visited us here recently - they have experinced no burglaries or murders or rapes that you always read about (touch wood), my parents here in the uk have been burgled (not violently though or anything)

my question is (if you are still with me) what IS the crime like? 
i appreciate there is a high crime rate, but is it the crime in the poorer parts and therefore not a true reflection of what we ourselves might experince??


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## CarCar (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Humbug

It's a question you will never get the same answer to - everybody has their own opinion according to their own experience. Unfortunately crime in SA tends to be a polarized issue - so some folk tend to start an argument about who is right an who is wrong. But that's just my feeling about it.

The basics are:

Yes, crime is worse in certain parts especially the poorer areas.
No, nobody can guarantee that you will not be affected by crime because you live in an 'upmarket area'.
*Yes, it is possible to live in SA without being personally affected by crime. *

In my mind it is quite simple. If you know that you live in a country where there is a high crime rate - take precautions. No use denying reality, just keep an open and balanced mindset. 

I know plenty people who are very happy in SA - South Africans and 'foreigners'. I also know plenty people who couldn't cope and have left. Then there's those who aren't sure. Each to their own.

I have a few blog friends (Norwegian and half Brit/SA) who live in SA and write about their thoughts and lives in SA. I'm not sure I'm allowed to put links on the post so pm me if you want the links. You might find that it gives you some insight into life in SA. The sort of ups and downs that some people go through.

Best of luck with your move
CC


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

hi cc

thank you for your reply
i hear what you are saying for sure

i would like to see the blogs you referred to but unfortunatley i cannot pm you - i assume i need a certain number of posts

if you read this i would welcome a pm from you with links

thanks you again for your reply


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## CarCar (Aug 9, 2008)

Hi Humbug

I'm trying to pm you but it said that your settings are off or you are not allowed to receive pm's. 

Maybe check your settings or just make a few more posts


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

ok - it says on terms i need 5 posts


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

so i am just trying this


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

and now i have hit five hopefully it will work


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

well its not worked and i have checked my settings to and it seems to be ok so i don't know

i'll keep trying


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## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

check this site out for some perspective....for the most part all the talk about crime is total rubbish.

Kill ******


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

thanks bov

and thanks to cc for the pm!!!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Don't do it !


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> check this site out for some perspective....for the most part all the talk about crime is total rubbish.
> 
> Kill ******


Its like a big circle we keep going in isn't it? 
So ...... all the reports we see on the news and TV are all made up then .... yes?


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## Newbie from SA (Aug 26, 2008)

*My two cents' worth*

I'd like to add my two cents worth to this thread. 

Yes, South Africa as a country has the a very high crime rate. I have lived here most of my life, aside form a brief period in the UK. The crime rates here vary massively form city to city and suburb to suburb. There are certainly some definate no-go areas, such as Hillbrow in Johannesburg. I am sure your family here can advise you on that.

You will hear horror stories of what has happened to somebody who new somebody and heard it from their cousin. On the other hand, we hear horendous stories of girls being raped on London tube stations. The fact is that crime is everywhere.

In sunny South Africa you will have to be more cautious than elswhere. I would not advise late evening jogs by yourself. I would not adivise that you sleep with your front door unlocked. I certainly would not adivise that you drive with your laptop on your passenger seat.

If you take precautions, you will be reasonably safe. With precautions I do not mean lock yourself in a cage and only leave to go to work. Have an alarm system with panic buttons installed in your house. Fit your car with smash and grab protection. Make sure your children don't wander alone in the streets. Be carefull of strangers. In short, just trust your gut. If you don't feel right about talking to someone, or going to a certain place; just don't.

I hope you do decide to move, I love it here.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Newbie from SA said:


> I'd like to add my two cents worth to this thread.
> 
> The fact is that crime is everywhere.


That's exactly what its worth as that statement is preposterous as you have to look a little further down the line..... Unless you have $$$$ life in SA is hard - healthcare/insurance is through the roof and like my Aunts husband you to could end up dead in a black bag in Kayalitcha after a meal in the waterfront.

You have to think about your kids future - THINK what SA will be like in 5 or even 20 years. Don't be short-sighted.

There are plenty of sunny places you can move to if the weather in the UK is getting you down.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Newbie from SA said:


> I'd like to add my two cents worth to this thread.
> 
> Yes, South Africa as a country has the a very high crime rate. I have lived here most of my life, aside form a brief period in the UK. The crime rates here vary massively form city to city and suburb to suburb. There are certainly some definate no-go areas, such as Hillbrow in Johannesburg. I am sure your family here can advise you on that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that ..... so when Bovine says to the effect that crime is not an issue, why is his view so different to your balanced view?


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## humbug (Aug 15, 2008)

hmmmm i know crime IS an issue - that is my big stumbing block tbh - i am aware it exists

I appreciate the comments about Hillbrow / Jo'burg we wouldn't be going there 

and I do understand that you have to be AWARE of crime, but as has been said it is also now apparent in my own country - every night on the news there are stabbings and shootings etc etc

but i don't want to be watching over my shoulder all the time, or afraid to go out - i think thats my biggest concern

thanks for all the comments coming through tho

eta - re just moving to sunnier climes - it isn't just that - hubby is a bit unsettled here at the moment and with having family there already, plus he grew up there also - there are strong reasons for moving to SA as opposed to australia or NZ for instance


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

humbug said:


> eta - re just moving to sunnier climes - it isn't just that - hubby is a bit unsettled here at the moment and with having family there already, plus he grew up there also - there are strong reasons for moving to SA as opposed to Australia or NZ for instance


Aaaaaaa, grew up there, explains a lot - If you HAVE to go, don't sell up in the UK as you will NEVER be able to return. Hubby needs a wake up call and get some different interests. If you don't have kids... FINE, its your life but please don't go if you have kids....

SA is finished. Speak to more ex-South Africans in the UK and they will have stories to tell.


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## SA_Andy (Aug 28, 2008)

bovinerebel said:


> check this site out for some perspective....for the most part all the talk about crime is total rubbish.
> 
> Kill ******


I don't mean to be argumentative here - but this blog is called "Kill ******" and has a pic of a black guy saying "I hate white people". Don't know if I'd take it too seriously.

Crime is everywhere but in South Africa it is sadistic crime if you are unfortunate to become a victim. It is a place where you need to be constantly aware of your enviroment and be very careful about locking doors. Don't believe it doesn't happen in affluent areas either - thats where the wealth is that the criminals are after.


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## Newbie from SA (Aug 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Thanks for that ..... so when Bovine says to the effect that crime is not an issue, why is his view so different to your balanced view?


When I read the website as quoted by Bovine, I must agree with most of the sentiments expressed. Although its sometimes a bit crass. But in my opinion crime IS an issue, its just not as bad as many people believe.

I suppose it depends on how you have been personally affected by crime. Perhaps I and my circle of friends and family have been lucky. One or two people I know have been robbed, but nothing as hectic as what Helo described.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Bad is relative... its real bad when its you on the receiving end..... Most South Africans are like frogs in a pot of water on the stove..... They just get used to the water getting hotter till it killls them.

Zimbabwefication is happening faster than you think.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

VULNERABILITY FOR CRIME 


This was posted by another South African, who,like myself WAS exposed to Violent Crime.
I re-post it here with Riaans permission. I ticked all these boxes,living in an upmarket Suburb, yet it still happened.
If you are prepared to live at this level in Gauteng,be welcome. :

"Research has shown undoubtedly that there are especially two factors that make people vulnerable for crime. These are lifestyle and routine activities. Unfortunately our quality of life in South Africa has degenerated to such an extent that we have to adapt our lifestyles and routine activities in order to prevent ourselves form becoming victims of crime. 

One of the most devastating experiences today is to be attacked and robbed in your own home. This was to be expected. Farm attacks have now also became house attacks. In order to determine your vulnerability for house robbery, test your situation according to the following check list. Note that this list only covers the most important aspects and is not complete. It could however, give one an idea of one?s vulnerability. 

Which of the following statements are true for you? If you do not employ a domestic worker, answer ?true? to those questions 

Perimeter Security 
Your house is fenced on all four sides 
The fence is at least 2-meters high 
The fence is either a wall or a palisade fence 
You have an electric motor gate 
The gate closes immediately after exit or entry 
You always look for strange bystanders when entering your premises 
You always look whether there are strange bystanders when you leave you premises 
You always wait until your gate is closed before you drive off 
There are razor wires or sharp edges on top of the outside perimeter 
There is an electric fence on top of the outside perimeter 
The electric fence is connected to armed response 

External Security 
There are alarm sensors in the garden 
These alarm sensors are connected to armed response 
The security company reacts within 15 minutes to the garden sensors 
You have a guard dog 
The dog can move around the house 
All the external doors are equipped with burglarproofing 
All the external doors are kept locked during the day 
All the windows that can open are equipped with burglarproofing 
All the windows are totally covered with burglar proofing 
External lighting is mounted on the walls and is shining away from the house 
The external perimeter is lit during the night 
Someone is living in a garden flat on the premises 
The person living in the garden flat is fully informed about the routine regarding the perimeter gate 

Internal Security 
There is an alarm system in the house 
The alarm system is always activated when you go to sleep 
The alarm system is always activated when no one is at home 
The alarm system is connected to armed response 
The security company is reacting within 15 minutes if the alarm goes off 
The functioning of your alarm system is frequently tested 
You always wait for the security company?s reaction before investigating an alarm warning 
The security company has access to the property 
All external doors are always checked and locked before going to bed 
All windows are always checked and locked before going to bed 
Strategic inside doors are always locked to restrict movement for possible burglars and to protect the sleeping area. 
You always go to bed with one of the outside door?s keys close by 
You always go to bed with your cell phone close by 
The main bedroom or sleeping area is protected with a burglar proof door 
The bathroom windows are totally covered with burglar proofing 
You always lock the main bedroom or sleeping area burglar door when you go to sleep 
All firearms are safely locked up in a safe in the main bedroom 

Lifestyle 
Your domestic worker/s do not have a key for the perimeter gate 
Your domestic worker/s do not hold a key for the house 
Your domestic worker/s are not left alone at home on a regular basis during the day 
Your domestic worker/s may not allow people on your premises without your consent 
Your house is not left unoccupied during the day for some days during the week 
Your house is not left un-occupied always on the same days 
Your house is not left un-occupied always at a specific time of the day 
You are not returning to your un-occupied house always at a specific time of the day 
Your house is not left alone for longer than one day without notifying someone 

Multiply all the false responses by two to get your percentage of vulnerability. If your vulnerability is higher than 30% you seriously need to do something about it. "


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## acassim (Aug 1, 2008)

so much for freedom...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

acassim said:


> so much for freedom...


Freedom is a myth. (especially in South Africa)


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## dolliey (Sep 5, 2008)

I've posted a longer note on the " Deciding on Capetown" thread for someone who wants a local perspective, here's an excerpt:

So here's what I'm suggesting. Try to become a local, read what we read or listen to what we talk about.....no, no not the syndicated network junk (SABC, BBC,CNN or equivalent). And venture outside this little insular expat world. Try community radio, or community newspapers (melkbosnews.co.za ; capetalk.co.za) its not all roses, but you may find a completely different perspective, not just on Cape Town , but on life.

Welcome to South Africa.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Locals tend to gloss over the crime as on cannot think about it 24/7. They seldom watch the news as its generally all bad. I still have plenty of family members stuck in South Africa (Cape Town which is still the best place to stay) with no way out. All I can says think carefully.


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## dolliey (Sep 5, 2008)

mostly anecdotal evidence and urban legends. If you would rather have cold hard crime stats for the Cape area, look here and make up your own mind: melkbosnews.co.za/safety-security (i cannot the 3 w's in front)


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## Newbie from SA (Aug 26, 2008)

When I was living in the UK, I have found that most people who have immigrated from SA to the UK, tend to run SA down at every opportunity. It appeared to me that they constantly need to justify their reasons for leaving. My friends and I noticed this not only amongst people coming from South Africa, but also France, Portugal, Australia, etc.

All persons are biased based on their own experiences and personalities. The only way to get a true picture of what a location is like, an average should be taken of the opinions of permanent immigrants, expats living or having lived there and people having grown up in a country.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

dolliey said:


> mostly anecdotal evidence and urban legends. If you would rather have cold hard crime stats for the Cape area, look here and make up your own mind: melkbosnews.co.za/safety-security (i cannot the 3 w's in front)


Please explain my Aunt's husbands body in a black bag?


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## Mummy3 (Sep 7, 2008)

I left South Africa 7 yrs ago to live here with my hubby (who I met here whilst working as a nanny). My whole family have experienced crime over there. When I was a child, I had a gun held at me during a fast food shops robbery. My dad has been attacked at various cash machines. He's also had an attemtped highjack at traffic lights (quite common there). My sister has had an attempted attack on her when she was walking after school. I'm glad to be rid of the place (as beautiful as it is). My aunt emigrated from there as she had constant burgalries on her house (she lived 6 hrs from us). My uncle (her brother) has been attacked at gun point. What more can I see. I'm sorry I can't be more positive.


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## kapila (Sep 6, 2008)

hambug .......did u get ur ans .yups me too in same situation .....only that i have two kids too.How is the sandton area ........???


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## Newbie from SA (Aug 26, 2008)

kapila said:


> hambug .......did u get ur ans .yups me too in same situation .....only that i have two kids too.How is the sandton area ........???


Sandton is one of the more upmarket areas in Johannesburg with several shopping malls, an abundance of restaurants and clubs, gymnasiums and most other first world amenities. Some of the best schools in the country is also situated in or close to this area. Sandton City (major shopping mall and office complex) will be one of the major stations of the Gautrain, a subway system that is being built. Sandton, especially the business districts around Sandton City suffer SEVERE traffic congestion. The property in this area tends to be quite expensive.

It is considered to be one of the safer areas, but as you can clearly see in this thread, no-one can guarantee your safety.


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## MichaelJ47 (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Kapila

SA is an awesome country , stunning in many ways , scary as well. If you are used to freedom of movement and personal freedom's of being able to leave windows and doors open, the car unlocked, walking around with a camera or laptop, leaving your stuff in the car , kids toys in the garden , going for long walks by yourself in your neighbourhood then that is going to change dramatically.

You have to be very vigilant more so in the Johannesburg, Midrand, Sandton area because it is wealthy and because it offers a nice rip-off reward to the scumbags. Unfortunately, life is worth very little here, and once you have been robbed the odds of something horrible still happening are very high. 

However, I would suggest that you contact some reputable Real Estate agencies in the area you want to purchase and get feedback from the people who live and work in the area. Any agent worth their salt can fill you in on all the schools, pre-primaries, and other requirements.

If you are stuck I can pm you with suggestions but as everyone says the Cape is always better than Johannesburg. BTW the car licence plate in Johannesurg or as it is now called Gauteng, is pre-fixed with "GP" for Gangster Province and the AK-47 machine gun is referred to as a Cheque book for the affirmative shoppers ...for a good reason!


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## JimAtJaxtr (Sep 5, 2008)

MichaelJ47 said:


> Hi Kapila
> 
> SA is an awesome country , stunning in many ways , scary as well. If you are used to freedom of movement and personal freedom's of being able to leave windows and doors open, the car unlocked, walking around with a camera or laptop, leaving your stuff in the car , kids toys in the garden , going for long walks by yourself in your neighbourhood then that is going to change dramatically.
> 
> ...


That's really interesting information to know. Interesting stuff to keep in mind if I ever look to move to South Africa.


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## CarCar (Aug 9, 2008)

Just do it and find out for yourself. It's a different lifestyle - better in some ways and not better in others. There comes a time when you just have to find out for yourself. You'll soon know if it's for you or not.

Good luck


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## melting (Sep 15, 2008)

*i am new so please be gentle*

Hi there
Moving to SA must seem like a bit of a scary challenge, although personally, Having lived here my whole life, being in close quarters to my outlaws would worry me more than the crime !!! on a more serious note.... yes, there is crime. But vigilance and a bit of care should ensure that you live without too much exposure to it. I've lived in Joburg for 13 yrs, and have been robbed twice, (tv, hi-fi etc). But try to stick to the nicer areas, where there are booms, security patrols etc, and you should be fine. Its a great place to stay, with lots to do, and very sociable people. I suspect you will love it. I have friends who have moved here from the UK and they reckon they will never go back.

goood luck



humbug said:


> hi - i am new so please be gentle
> 
> i have just spent lots of time reading through posts and threads that seem to relate to my interest in being here - esp the long one - crime centre of the world
> 
> ...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

melting said:


> I have friends who have moved here from the UK and they reckon they will never go back.
> 
> goood luck


That's because they can't

&


BBC NEWS | Wales | Shot man's daughter helps police
(you can die for a packet of cigarettes in SA - Its not worth it)


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## Byo (Nov 28, 2007)

Halo

It so funny cause in Zimbabwe when the crime got bad we were saying, its getting like SA here.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Byo said:


> Halo
> 
> It so funny cause in Zimbabwe when the crime got bad we were saying, its getting like SA here.


Yup, no are so blind that don't want to see and many only wake up when its too late.


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## JoziMike (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't know if this topic is still relevant and being viewed, but I recently returned after 6 years in the UK, and am living in Johannesburg and enjoying the experience so far...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziMike said:


> I don't know if this topic is still relevant and being viewed, but I recently returned after 6 years in the UK, and am living in Johannesburg and enjoying the experience so far...


O well, the UK is not for everyone but to go to J-Burg, ouch. Ever heard of the USA/Canada/Australia? 
What was it, family? / Could not integrate?

A quick google brought this up The Death of Johannesburg
Being from CT originally, I remember some of these place - it sure has changed.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Great Mike, is that the same Mike living out near Paulshof, feeding the geese, Flying lessons??


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## JoziMike (Oct 10, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Great Mike, is that the same Mike living out near Paulshof, feeding the geese, Flying lessons??


Sounds like you have found me out Daxk...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Nope,Mike, been reading your blog,Know Paulshof very well, some friends down the road from you in Chartwell are trying to sell to emigrate.
where are you doing your PPL? Grand Central or Lanseria?


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## JoziMike (Oct 10, 2008)

Hi,

Am doing the PPL out of Rand Airport. I was first living on the East Rand, hence I started out that side. Now even though I am on the West Rand, I just find it better to stay with the school I was at.


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## Ancilla (Oct 19, 2008)

*Crime in South Africa - out of control*



humbug said:


> hi - i am new so please be gentle
> 
> i have just spent lots of time reading through posts and threads that seem to relate to my interest in being here - esp the long one - crime centre of the world
> 
> ...


Hi there, Cilla here - we are living in SA currently (Gauteng) and we were just discussing how you have to live in the equivalent of your own C-MAX prison. Kids can't even go for a walk down the street for fear of being hurt by some unknown. Problem is, if the crime does affect you it's highly likely to be very vicious - not just a robbery. If the criminal gets into your home to rob it and you are there - you can count yourself lucky that you are still alive and not raped (including the children) - this is not a scare issue - but serious reality. The schools have cameras in them as there have been problems at the schools too. We live in Pretoria and our children's school has two security guards at each gate - the kids whose moms are late have to wait in a gated area to keep them safe. All public areas are gated up and everyone spends extra monies on electric fences, increased wall heights, private security companies etc... Obviously you get used to it - so it can be what you make of it. My mom sleeps with her cell phone on a pre-dialed number incase someone attacks in the middle of the night, the same with us! The list goes on and on - if I were you - SA would not be a country of choice, but rather NZ or AUS. 

But as always remember we live in Gauteng one of the worst crime rates in the world - so you would need to make your decision - this is just a point of view - from a family who lives in the midst of this environment.

Good luck


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Ancilla said:


> Hi there, Cilla here - we are living in SA currently (Gauteng) and we were just discussing how you have to live in the equivalent of your own C-MAX prison. Kids can't even go for a walk down the street for fear of being hurt by some unknown. Problem is, if the crime does affect you it's highly likely to be very vicious - not just a robbery. If the criminal gets into your home to rob it and you are there - you can count yourself lucky that you are still alive and not raped (including the children) - this is not a scare issue - but serious reality. The schools have cameras in them as there have been problems at the schools too. We live in Pretoria and our children's school has two security guards at each gate - the kids whose moms are late have to wait in a gated area to keep them safe. All public areas are gated up and everyone spends extra monies on electric fences, increased wall heights, private security companies etc... Obviously you get used to it - so it can be what you make of it. My mom sleeps with her cell phone on a pre-dialed number incase someone attacks in the middle of the night, the same with us! The list goes on and on - if I were you - SA would not be a country of choice, but rather NZ or AUS.
> 
> But as always remember we live in Gauteng one of the worst crime rates in the world - so you would need to make your decision - this is just a point of view - from a family who lives in the midst of this environment.
> 
> Good luck


Agree totslly, unfortunately there are people like bovinerebel that are telling people that what WE are telling them is rubbish and all of it does not exist and all that crap. WOW maybe he is right. Maybe there are all these people in SA whose job it is, is to invent stories of violence, rape and murder. Who sit there and suck their thumbs all day. Maybe we are are just so dumb to have ever thought that crimes and violence like this exists. 
Well as for your comment of country of choice - Well We did move to AUS - Only reason - Did not want my beautifull wife and 2 lovely daughters raped by a black and give them a safe future - How much more simple can a reason get. And now we feel like we are in heaven(granted a bit of a HOT heaven) but hey I dont hear anyone complaining when they can walk around in their bikinis and baggies on the beach soaking up some sun and fun in abosulte safety with no"spot the whites being able to be played" rather "spot the black" Now sorry to everyone who might think that sounds racist, but when you are driven out of your coiuntry by fear of a black, can you ecpect anything more. I hope that everyone that thinks it is such a wonderfull place enjoy their crime ridden life. To all of you who want to leave, but think perhaps you cant, dont loose hope AND NEVER ACCPET LIVING THERE JUST BEACUSE YOU THINK YOU CANT LEAVE. THERE ARE WAYS.

PS - Just curious, without getting personal - Why have you not left yet? Honest question really!!!!


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## YolandaG (Feb 4, 2009)

Crime is everywhere - rich and poor, just as it is committed by people from all walks of life; as long as you are .. aware ... aware of what you do and who is around you you'll be ok. Don't go there with the idea that people are the same everywhere. In the UK things come easy and it is reflected in how you behave, in SA life is not easy and people's attitude to life therefore differs as well.

One can become paranoid about all these horrible stories you hear - just get on with your life, don't be so worried about everybody else's.

Y



humbug said:


> hi - i am new so please be gentle
> 
> i have just spent lots of time reading through posts and threads that seem to relate to my interest in being here - esp the long one - crime centre of the world
> 
> ...


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## CRISRAV (Feb 3, 2009)

CARCAR would you be so kind to send me the links you are talking about
I am Italian and I will move to Cape Town to live there for good, next year.
thanks
You wrote
I have a few blog friends (Norwegian and half Brit/SA) who live in SA and write about their thoughts and lives in SA. I'm not sure I'm allowed to put links on the post so pm me if you want the links.


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