# Government reassessment of sold house prices



## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

I was interested to read the post on the ridiculous proposal to tax solar panels, then shortly afterwards picked up the Daily telegraph newspaper where I was saddened to read an article on how the Spanish Government were starting to send out letters to people who had recently purchased a house in Spain to demand additional property purchase taxes as they believe that the houses are under priced. They have started to reassess declared values. I sold my property in Spain a few years ago because I believed that the government saw expats as an additional revenue source, a bit like the Valencia land grabs etc. This is another example of how the Spanish authorities appear to be a law unto themselves. Apparently they are starting to review all purchases over the last 4 years to see if they can revalue the property and raise extra tax. The example used in the article was one where they paid approx. £63k for the house but the government decided it was worth £81k and sent out the demand for extra tax accordingly. 

It is such a shame that Spain has a government that appear to do everything in their power to keep Spain in recession, it is such a beautiful country which has much to offer. 

This is an object lesson to those who are in the process of buying or thinking of buying to avoid the Spanish practice of under declaring no matter what pressure is placed upon them, it is not only robbing the government of their legitimate tax but it is illegal and if they reassess your purchase you will likely end up paying not only the sellers tax for the under declaration but possibly additional tax on your bargain priced property as the authorities value it as if there has not been a property collapse.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

ABERAFON said:


> I was interested to read the post on the ridiculous proposal to tax solar panels, then shortly afterwards picked up the Daily telegraph newspaper where I was saddened to read an article on how the Spanish Government were starting to send out letters to people who had recently purchased a house in Spain to demand additional property purchase taxes as they believe that the houses are under priced. They have started to reassess declared values. I sold my property in Spain a few years ago because I believed that the government saw expats as an additional revenue source, a bit like the Valencia land grabs etc. This is another example of how the Spanish authorities appear to be a law unto themselves. Apparently they are starting to review all purchases over the last 4 years to see if they can revalue the property and raise extra tax. The example used in the article was one where they paid approx. £63k for the house but the government decided it was worth £81k and sent out the demand for extra tax accordingly.
> 
> It is such a shame that Spain has a government that appear to do everything in their power to keep Spain in recession, it is such a beautiful country which has much to offer.
> 
> This is an object lesson to those who are in the process of buying or thinking of buying to avoid the Spanish practice of under declaring no matter what pressure is placed upon them, it is not only robbing the government of their legitimate tax but it is illegal and if they reassess your purchase you will likely end up paying not only the sellers tax for the under declaration but possibly additional tax on your bargain priced property as the authorities value it as if there has not been a property collapse.


The Daily Mail article is misleading (now there's a surprise) as this is not a new initiative at all, it has always been done and I have seen comments from some people on forums who bought property during the 1990s recession at low prices, and received demands for the additional transfer tax due based on the valor tasacion.

You may not have noticed but I, and others too I'm sure, have advised people enquiring about buying property in Spain to insist that the estate agent or their lawyer advise them of the valor tasacion of the property before going ahead with the purchase, so that they can calculate how much additional transfer tax they might be asked to pay.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

On one of the English radio stations they have a legal advice segment and this was brought up, the advisor was under the impression this action is totally illegal and asked for people that had this happen to them to contact him/his firm.
Who it was I don't know but it doesn't strike me to be much more than a meal ticket for a law firm with little chance of success.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isn't this aimed at people who sell their property with part paid in cash and a lower price officially declared to benefit from a lower rate of tax? Wasn't there a thread some weeks back about this illegal practice?
Why do people persist in the false belief that this measure is aimed at British immigrants? Don't Spanish people buy houses?
Perhaps the Daily Mail should have a look at Brit immigrants in Spain who live under the radar, drive UK plated cars, fraudulently use the NHS,engage in the black economy?
I'm sick of this whining about poor, victimized Brits.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I think the underlying issue is that the valor catastral used to value properties is used both in the calculation of council tax (IBI) as well as the calculation of the property transaction tax when a property is sold.

So on the one hand the the valor catastral is meant to reflect the value added by the various public services provided by the council. If a property receives street lighting, a bus service, etc or has a hospital built neaby, then the idea is this "added value" is reflected in the valor catastral, and the council tax (IBI) goes up accordingly.

However, and in defence of the OP, it should be pointed out that over the period mentioned (the last 4 years) house prices have obviously fallen, and the councils have come under a lot of criticism for not adjusting their valuations accordingly when calculating the transaction tax. There have been many cases of people buying a "bargain" with say a 50% reduction in price, only to find this isn't reflected in the transaction tax they pay.

I also seem to remember the valores catastrales in some areas being revised about 4 years ago, so what might have happened is the new values were applied to the IBI calculations, but not to property transaction taxes and they are trying to recuperate the money.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I stop reading as soon as I see comments about the victimisation of British expats. It seems to me that the Spanish have been letting immigrants from all sources get away with a lot for years. After all, wasn't it (isn't it) the place to hide when you live off ill-gotten gains.



mrypg9 said:


> Isn't this aimed at people who sell their property with part paid in cash and a lower price officially declared to benefit from a lower rate of tax? Wasn't there a thread some weeks back about this illegal practice?
> Why do people persist in the false belief that this measure is aimed at British immigrants? Don't Spanish people buy houses?
> Perhaps the Daily Mail should have a look at Brit immigrants in Spain who live under the radar, drive UK plated cars, fraudulently use the NHS,engage in the black economy?
> I'm sick of this whining about poor, victimized Brits.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> I stop reading as soon as I see comments about the victimisation of British expats. It seems to me that the Spanish have been letting immigrants from all sources get away with a lot for years. After all, wasn't it (isn't it) the place to hide when you live off ill-gotten gains.


And still is. It's a country which a lot of Brits live off as well as in. 
And where far too many have a victim mentality. 
They blame Spain for their troubles, ignoring the fact that they are often the architects of their own misfortunes.


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## raynard (Nov 26, 2014)

i just bought a run down property for 12,000 euro, but the lawyer said the minimum value the tax office would accept was 40,000 euro even though the deeds show it was purchased for 12000 euro,the lawyer said even if we appeal it is unlikely they would move on the valuation.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Hi all,

I think we have got a bit off track with this, the full article was in the Daily Telegraph not the Daily Mail as people have quoted and it was not saying that the target of this action was the British but all property transactions. It used a couple from the UK as the example as to how they were affected by the extra tax but it was not about just people from the UK. It also did not state this was an illegal action but noted for information that this could happen so it is worth taking that into account when buying. I placed the post on the site for information too, particularly as there was a post about taxing solar panels and it was interesting to see how the authorities are searching for ways to raise more tax. I have always resisted any suggestion that someone under declare the cost of the property they are buying and thought this was a way of highlighting the dangers, which of course is illegal. I understand the article in the Daily Telegraph was prompted because the Spanish authorities have released something that indicated that they intended looking at all property transactions over the last 4 years in 2015. Hope this clarifies the article.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

raynard said:


> i just bought a run down property for 12,000 euro, but the lawyer said the minimum value the tax office would accept was 40,000 euro even though the deeds show it was purchased for 12000 euro,the lawyer said even if we appeal it is unlikely they would move on the valuation.


Yes this is common and there's not much you can do about it. The confusion arises because the transaction tax is based on the council's valuation rather than the actual transaction value, but this is never properly explained to expat buyers. People are traditionally told it's 7% or 8% or whatever of the price of the house as a way of estimating how much they'll pay, but it's not explained that this is a guideline and the actual value is set by the council. Before the crash nobody really complained because the valuations were close or often less than what people were actually paying. But now it's the other way round and people are getting nasty surprises in the notary's office.

It's a bit like council tax bands in the UK - you simply don't have much control over them.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Isn't this aimed at people who sell their property with part paid in cash and a lower price officially declared to benefit from a lower rate of tax? Wasn't there a thread some weeks back about this illegal practice?
> Why do people persist in the false belief that this measure is aimed at British immigrants? Don't Spanish people buy houses?
> Perhaps the Daily Mail should have a look at Brit immigrants in Spain who live under the radar, drive UK plated cars, fraudulently use the NHS,engage in the black economy?
> I'm sick of this whining about poor, victimized Brits.


Do people think that? :confused2:


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I don't agree people should just accept this complementary tax, when they they have bought a property legally, at the amount agreed. It should be easy enough to prove that brown envelopes haven't been passed under the table.
Why should they suffer because of underhand practices by others?
Why should they have to put money by to allow for this?
It is just theft by the Hacienda!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I don't agree people should just accept this complementary tax, when they they have bought a property legally, at the amount agreed. It should be easy enough to prove that brown envelopes haven't been passed under the table.
> Why should they suffer because of underhand practices by others?
> Why should they have to put money by to allow for this?
> It is just theft by the Hacienda!


Of course it isn't 'theft'. Stop exaggerating.

In the UK, shoppers pay inflated prices for goods to cover the costs incurred by shoplifters. We suffer from the 'underhand practices' of others. It's the norm. It happens with insurance too.
Instead of blaming hacienda why not turn your wrath on your cheating compatriots who do indulge in these corrupt practices? And while you're at it, do the same for all those immigrants resident but driving UK cars, not registering for Modelo 720 as required by law plus all the other fiddles common amongst a certain type of British immigrant?

I have never, in all the countries I've lived in or spent time in, encountered so many whining whingeing Brits as here in Spain. Observe the laws and if they are not to your liking....there are many cheap flights back to the UK now.

But then it's not so easy to cheat the system in good old Blighty..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Do people think that? :confused2:


Some do. See the post subsequent to yours.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

It is an unfair tax but it isn't new it has always been so. I wouldn't get het up about it being anti-expat as it is obviously an advertorial. Note two names are mentioned, one a Broker for Spanish mortgages and the other Director of a Law Company they pay for this stuff.

Basically they are putting out that there are loads of bargains and that Guy can get you a mortgage. Contact the Lawyer mentioned for him to sort it all out


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

I have never, in all the countries I've lived in or spent time in, encountered so many whining whingeing Brits as here in Spain. 

Another fine British export.
On the other hand. If the weather's always good, we would have nothing to moan about. Remember, us Brit's are only happy when complaining. 

Derek


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Some do. See the post subsequent to yours.


This is the post following mine...



> I don't agree people should just accept this complementary tax, when they they have bought a property legally, at the amount agreed. It should be easy enough to prove that brown envelopes haven't been passed under the table.
> Why should they suffer because of underhand practices by others?
> Why should they have to put money by to allow for this?
> It is just theft by the Hacienda!


No mention of it being aimed at Brits.:noidea:

I also don't see that this tax is a problem, nor new - I first came across it in 2000. As I understand it, it's based upon the catastral value of the property not on the value of the transaction.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jimenato said:


> This is the post following mine...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, this is the point I was trying to make earlier in the thread. It's no worse than the UK's council tax bands, where the tax paid is based on a value drawn up by the council rather than the price paid for the house. The problem is this is never really communicated properly to expat buyers from the outset, instead they assume it's based on the transaction value and then feel they're being excessively ripped off when they find out it isn't.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

MRPG9- as Jimenato stated, I did not say that it was aimed at Brits. It does not affect you as you rent your property, but it could mean many thousands extra to some buyers.
I maintain it is unfair.The transfer tax is based on the sale value.
Whether an owner chooses it to be lower or higher should be up to them, not an opportunity for the taxman to squeeze more money out.
How can it be based on the catastro value, when the sale value is going to be very different, though it has to be said that in recent years, , some properties are selling for less than that.
The Usual response of if you don't like it go home, or words to that effect, is very wearing and glib.
Clearly many would like to, but it's not a case of just packing your suitcase and go when you own a property.
Why is it whingeing to point out something that is obviously unfair?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

extranjero said:


> MRPG9- as Jimenato stated, I did not say that it was aimed at Brits. It does not affect you as you rent your property, but it could mean many thousands extra to some buyers.
> I maintain it is unfair.*The transfer tax is based on the sale value.*
> Whether an owner chooses it to be lower or higher should be up to them, not an opportunity for the taxman to squeeze more money out.
> How can it be based on the catastro value, when the sale value is going to be very different, though it has to be said that in recent years, , some properties are selling for less than that.
> ...


Why is it based on the sale value?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Because tha transfer tax Is a percentage of the price it was bought for.
How can the Haciendas valuation be based on the catastral value which is usually much lower than the sale price. The Haciendas valuation is often much higher than the price it is sold for and does not seem to take into account current market values.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Why is it based on the sale value?


I think the problem is simply one of understanding. People are assuming that the tax is based on the sale transaction value when it's not - it's based on the catastral value. 

If the basis were made clear before the event, people wouldn't be taken by surprise. It's probably not stated before the transaction because it is assumed that everybody knows about it but, it appears, some expats don't.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

jimenato said:


> I think the problem is simply one of understanding. People are assuming that the tax is based on the sale transaction value when it's not - it's based on the catastral value.
> 
> If the basis were made clear before the event, people wouldn't be taken by surprise. It's probably not stated before the transaction because it is assumed that everybody knows about it but, it appears, some expats don't.


From what I have read on different sites, the tax valuation is a theoretical valuation which is way above the sale price.If the property is sold below the catastral value , the tax office is suspicious that it is being under declared.
If the tax was based on the catastral value, it would be less, not more In most cases, and the Hacienda would owe the buyer money!
By the way, Chopera, you keep saying about the council- they do not set the valuation, the Spanish tax office does!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

extranjero said:


> From what I have read on different sites, the tax valuation is a theoretical valuation which is way above the sale price.If the property is sold below the catastral value , the tax office is suspicious that it is being under declared.
> If the tax was based on the catastral value, it would be less, not more In most cases, and the Hacienda would owe the buyer money!


I'll be perfectly honest and say that I'm not entirely sure of myself and so I'll shut up.

Over the years I have been in Spain I have known several people buy bargain properties and suddenly find that what they had paid was below what the 'official' value of the property was deemed to be and had to pay more tax than was expected. They called this the catastral value but I simply can't be sure they were right.

Although I can't imagine what other value it would be...


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

jimenato said:


> I'll be perfectly honest and say that I'm not entirely sure of myself and so I'll shut up.
> 
> Over the years I have been in Spain I have known several people buy bargain properties and suddenly find that what they had paid was below what the 'official' value of the property was deemed to be and had to pay more tax than was expected. They called this the catastral value but I simply can't be sure they were right.
> 
> Although I can't imagine what other value it would be...


It's the Minimum Market Value, as set by the Tax authority, not the catastral value.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

A possible sequence of events??


ABERAFON said:


> I was interested to read the post on the ridiculous proposal to tax solar panels, then shortly afterwards picked up the Daily telegraph newspaper where I was saddened to read an article on how the Spanish Government were starting to send out letters to people who had recently purchased a house in Spain to demand additional property purchase taxes as they believe that the houses are under priced. They have started to reassess declared values. I sold my property in Spain a few years ago because I believed that *the government saw expats as an additional revenue source,* a bit like the Valencia land grabs etc. This is another example of how the Spanish authorities appear to be a law unto themselves. Apparently they are starting to review all purchases over the last 4 years to see if they can revalue the property and raise extra tax. The example used in the article was one where they paid approx. £63k for the house but the government decided it was worth £81k and sent out the demand for extra tax accordingly.....





> *Mrypg9*:Isn't this aimed at people who sell their property with part paid in cash and a lower price officially declared to benefit from a lower rate of tax? Wasn't there a thread some weeks back about this illegal practice?
> Why do people persist in the *false belief that this measure is aimed at British immigrants?* Don't Spanish people buy houses?
> Perhaps the Daily Mail should have a look at Brit immigrants in Spain who live under the radar, drive UK plated cars, fraudulently use the NHS,engage in the black economy?
> I'm sick of this whining about poor, victimized Brits.





> *Jimenato*: Do people think that? :confused2:


However the OP has now retracted his original statement and says that the article was not saying that the British were targeted


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> MRPG9- as Jimenato stated, I did not say that it was aimed at Brits. It does not affect you as you rent your property, but it could mean many thousands extra to some buyers.
> I maintain it is unfair.The transfer tax is based on the sale value.
> Whether an owner chooses it to be lower or higher should be up to them, not an opportunity for the taxman to squeeze more money out.
> How can it be based on the catastro value, when the sale value is going to be very different, though it has to be said that in recent years, , some properties are selling for less than that.
> ...


Because it isn't unfair. But selling your house at a falsely stated price to avoid tax most certainly is and people do that.
When you move to a country you can't expect everything to be tailored to your personal needs. You should also accept that taxes and prices as well as exchange rates can alter.you should plan for that before moving.
Yes, we chose to rent although we have the means to buy. One reason for our choice was precisely to avoid drastic changes.
No, it's not that simple to pack up and go if you own a property you can't sell. But maybe purchase wasn't such a good choice? When I make a bad choice, as I often do, I get out of the situation. Prague was a bad choice for us so we left. But we didn't choose to buy property and put a millstone round our necks.
If I owned property here and were desperate to leave I'd cut my losses, sell and go.
Life's too short to,be unhappy when you can change your circumstances.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

extranjero said:


> It's the Minimum Market Value, as set by the Tax authority, not the catastral value.





extranjero said:


> The transfer tax is based on the sale value.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

The Hacienda set the MMV
The transfer tax paid by the buyer is on the price paid for the property, the sale price.
The MMV set by the the hacienda is higher than the sale price and the complementary tax is paid on the difference.
Why the puzzled face?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

extranjero said:


> Because tha transfer tax Is a percentage of the price it was bought for.
> How can the Haciendas valuation be based on the catastral value which is usually much lower than the sale price. The Haciendas valuation is often much higher than the price it is sold for and does not seem to take into account current market values.


I think you are assuming that just because it's called a transaction tax that that means it is based on the transaction value. It's not, it's called a transaction tax simply because it is paid when a transaction takes place.

The way it is worked out is up to each autonoma, but the idea is that the tax covers the services it provides to that property. They basically say that it's unfair for someone to pay say €100 for a property, and maybe only €7 transaction tax, and then consume all the street lighting, refuse collection, public transport services, road maintenance, etc.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A possible sequence of events??
> 
> 
> However the OP has now retracted his original statement and says that the article was not saying that the British were targeted


I have not retracted any of my original post, I never stated that the tax was aimed at British immigrants. I did in fact say that they were sending letters to people who had recently purchased a property, no mention of any nationality. I did in fact state separately that I sold my property in Spain some years ago as I thought that the authorities appeared to see ex pats as an additional source of revenue. I clarified the post with a later post because everyone was jumping to the conclusion that it was only UK people which was a misreading of the post.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ABERAFON said:


> I have not retracted any of my original post, I never stated that the tax was aimed at British immigrants. I did in fact say that they were sending letters to people who had recently purchased a property, no mention of any nationality. I did in fact state separately that I sold my property in Spain some years ago as I thought that the authorities appeared to see ex pats as an additional source of revenue. I clarified the post with a later post because everyone was jumping to the conclusion that it was only UK people which was a misreading of the post.


But ' expats aka immigrants' would surely provide an additional source of revenue only because they have chosen to buy property in Spain and thereby chosen to be treated like Spaniards?


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> But ' expats aka immigrants' would surely provide an additional source of revenue only because they have chosen to buy property in Spain and thereby chosen to be treated like Spaniards?


I take your point and agree, but what was happening when I sold my property was that anyone with a holiday home that was not Spanish was treated differently and taxed differently. There was also the Valencia land grabs and many other things including IHT differences between Spanish and Ex pats. I don't know what the situation is today with residents and holiday home owners and it was only an aside to the main thrust of the post.
I still have many contacts in Spain as I both lived there on and off as I tried to do business there as well as in the UK and expand my UK buisness. I stopped trying to do business in Spain due to the complications. I still believe however, that it is a lovely country and has a lot to offer people who want to live there but I also believe that the biggest road block for the country to get itself out of the recession is the action of its governments and its corruption and that is a great pity as the people deserve better and have been badly served by their politicians and officials. It is a 'national shame' that youth unemployment is so high as this is robbing a whole generation of its future.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ABERAFON said:


> There was also the Valencia land grabs and many other things including IHT differences between Spanish and Ex pats.


But this applied (applies) to the Spanish just us much as any other nationality ...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> But this applied (applies) to the Spanish just us much as any other nationality ...


As did IHT as regards expats of any nationality who were Spanish residents - they were, and are, treated exactly the same as Spanish nationals (except that they are not bound by Spanish succession laws but have the freedom to bequeath their assets as they wish). The only difference was in relation to non-residents, and this difference has now been removed following the EU ruling.

I can see no reason why any foreign residents living in any country should expect to be treated any differently in respect of taxation than nationals of that country, or exempted from any aspect of that country's laws relating to tax or anything else.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

We got hit by this two years ago. We were told that fighting the tax would require getting a _tasador_ (appraiser?) to appraise the real value of our home. We were told that it was going to be just as expensive to fight the tax as it would be to pay it. 

We paid it. It was only a couple of hundred euros. I was most disappointed.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ABERAFON said:


> I have not retracted any of my original post, I never stated that the tax was aimed at British immigrants. I did in fact say that they were sending letters to people who had recently purchased a property, no mention of any nationality. I did in fact state separately that I sold my property in Spain some years ago as I thought that the authorities appeared to see ex pats as an additional source of revenue. I clarified the post with a later post because everyone was jumping to the conclusion that it was only UK people which was a misreading of the post.


I apologise if I misread the post. I do still think that this statement 


> They have started to reassess declared values. I sold my property in Spain a few years ago because I believed that the government saw expats as an additional revenue source, a bit like the Valencia land grabs etc


reads as though it excludes the Spanish, and there are Spanish people who have experienced the same problems as expats/ immigrants. There was an article in the paper El Correo over Christmas about houses in Cantabria that are meant to be demolished and most, if not all are owned by Spaniards. There are several associations, just as there are in Andalucia against the legislation behind illegal builds and demolishing. In Axarquia it's SOHA Save Our Homes Axarquia etc; in Cantabria it's AMA Asociación de Maltratados por la Administración etc.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I would like to think that all those who believe that non-resident property owners in Spain should receive the same tax breaks as Spanish residents would also oppose the current moves to remove the WFA from British pensioners who are non-resident in the UK, and oppose the proposals to remove access to in-work benefits (including tax credits) from foreign citizens who are resident and working in the UK.

Sits back and awaits the usual chorus of "but we're different, we have money".


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## labob (Dec 2, 2014)

Is there any way to find out the cadastral/MMV value of a property? I know you can check what's registered regarding size etc online, I'm looking at buying a cheap flat and need to know if my paltry budget can afford a larger tax bill.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Ask the agent or the owner. They will either have the original bill or at least a copy of it.

To my knowledge, the actual values are not posted anywhere - I wish they were so that we could see the amazing disparities and also see how illegal some are (with undisclosed amendments etc.).


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I have never, in all the countries I've lived in or spent time in, encountered so many whining *whingeing Brits* as here in Spain. Observe the laws and if they are not to your liking....there are many cheap flights back to the UK now.
> 
> But then it's not so easy to cheat the system in good old Blighty..


Perhaps you should be using the Aussie expression for moaning British Expats namely, Whinging Pom.


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

I don't think the vast majority of persons I know living abroad moan that much? What is apparent though is that many EU nations are run by incompetent idiots and thieves who would have their arses kicked into prison in the UK ... Unless they were 'Bankers' - they're made of Teflon, apparently?

I will no doubt be moaning soon, when I arrive in Spain, but those of you who are completely off your nut thinking that the UK is the oasis of calm? Well, think again.


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## labob (Dec 2, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Ask the agent or the owner. They will either have the original bill or at least a copy of it.
> 
> To my knowledge, the actual values are not posted anywhere - I wish they were so that we could see the amazing disparities and also see how illegal some are (with undisclosed amendments etc.).


Thanks, although blood and stones come to mind when trying to get information out of some estate agents.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

labob said:


> Thanks, although blood and stones come to mind when trying to get information out of some estate agents.


You really have to insist sometimes but it's a good check on how legal the property is.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm happy to leave their expression with them, they invented it so I won't steal it 

That said, it is spot on!

As I have said here before, Brits are a whining bunch on a good day. As soon as you spend time out of Britain you realise just how bad it is.

One of my first encounters of a Brit expat in Spain was a 30 minute whine about the tax situation and other annoying aspects of life, many of which involved complaints about the Spanish locals.

I did point out that there is an airport nearby and free movement around the EU.



> Williams2;6228426]Perhaps you should be using the Aussie expression for moaning British Expats namely, Whinging Pom.


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