# Filing US Income Taxes from France, US Citizen Married to a French citizen



## le_mew

I am a US citizen who married a French citizen in 2011, and we reside in France. I am starting on my US income taxes for 2011. I have used TurboTax in previous years before I moved to France, and am planning on using it this year as well if possible. 

My spouse earns no income from the US; all of his income is from France. My 2011 income was from the US; I currently have no personal or business French income.

One of the first questions the TurboTax program asks is if I want to file my return with my spouse. 

One of my questions is, does my French citizen spouse (or we as a couple) have to pay any US income taxes on his French income now that he is married to a US citizen?

I sent this question to the IRS and await a reply, and thought I would also ask here to see what others have found for similar circumstances.

Also, does anyone have advice about paying US income taxes as well as French taxes that may apply to my circumstances?


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## le_mew

*Update*

Never mind, I believe I just found what I was seeking. The TurboTax Guide shows "Your worldwide income is your income from all sources, including income earned outside the United States. Example: If you are married and your spouse is a resident of another country, you would include your spouse's foreign income on your U.S. income tax return if you elect to file jointly."

Still, if anyone has any associated information that may be helpful, please feel free to post it here.

Thanks in advance!



le_mew said:


> I am a US citizen who married a French citizen in 2011, and we reside in France. I am starting on my US income taxes for 2011. I have used TurboTax in previous years before I moved to France, and am planning on using it this year as well if possible.
> 
> My spouse earns no income from the US; all of his income is from France. My 2011 income was from the US; I currently have no personal or business French income.
> 
> One of the first questions the TurboTax program asks is if I want to file my return with my spouse.
> 
> One of my questions is, does my French citizen spouse (or we as a couple) have to pay any US income taxes on his French income now that he is married to a US citizen?
> 
> I sent this question to the IRS and await a reply, and thought I would also ask here to see what others have found for similar circumstances.
> 
> Also, does anyone have advice about paying US income taxes as well as French taxes that may apply to my circumstances?


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## Bevdeforges

Note the phrase "if you elect to file jointly" - it's important.

If your French spouse was not resident in the US at any time during 2011, you cannot file jointly with him. It's an option only in the year that he arrives in the US or the year he departs the US.

Normally, as a US citizen married to a "non resident alien" you will file as "married filing separately" which is where the fun starts. Some tax programs will not allow you to file separately unless you fill in the space for spouse's SS number. In practice, if your spouse doesn't have a US SS number, or even if he does, you just indicate "NRA" for non-resident alien where it asks for his number. This basically tells them not to bother trying to find his tax return, since he doesn't need to file one.

As long as all your income in 2011 is from the US, you can go ahead and file now and get it done with. If you start working in France, you'll have to file a form 2555 to exclude your French salary income - but you'll have fulfilled all the requirements for that by the time you have to file your 2012 forms next year.

You want to download IRS publication 54 on filing from overseas. It lays out most of what you need to know.
Cheers,
Bev


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## annatogether

I'm in the same boat and H&R Block wouldn't let me e-file without an ITIN or SSN for my spouse even though I marked "married filing separately".

Did TurboTax let you e-file? Or do I still have to go through the whole mailing in a W-7 request for my husband's ITIN and 1040NR?

Will give an eye to publication 54, but man is this all so confusing! :juggle:



Bevdeforges said:


> Note the phrase "if you elect to file jointly" - it's important.
> 
> If your French spouse was not resident in the US at any time during 2011, you cannot file jointly with him. It's an option only in the year that he arrives in the US or the year he departs the US.
> 
> Normally, as a US citizen married to a "non resident alien" you will file as "married filing separately" which is where the fun starts. Some tax programs will not allow you to file separately unless you fill in the space for spouse's SS number. In practice, if your spouse doesn't have a US SS number, or even if he does, you just indicate "NRA" for non-resident alien where it asks for his number. This basically tells them not to bother trying to find his tax return, since he doesn't need to file one.
> 
> As long as all your income in 2011 is from the US, you can go ahead and file now and get it done with. If you start working in France, you'll have to file a form 2555 to exclude your French salary income - but you'll have fulfilled all the requirements for that by the time you have to file your 2012 forms next year.
> 
> You want to download IRS publication 54 on filing from overseas. It lays out most of what you need to know.
> Cheers,
> Bev


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## Bevdeforges

It is very difficult to e-file from overseas. One of the "gotchas" is the taxpayer ID number for the NRA spouse. Just mail in the forms. You absolutely do NOT need a number for your spouse unless you're looking to claim an exemption for him. Personally, I'd advise against getting your spouse an ITIN unless you have a very specific reason for wanting to claim him.

But you will need to mail in the forms. Use the pdf forms you get from the IRS website, and just fill them in on your computer. Print them from the computer and they're all neat and legible. (OK, you have to check the math yourself, but it's not that difficult.)

I also like sending in the pdf printed forms because the print for the information you provide is really, really tiny and I figure that serves them right when they're putting the information into their computers.:heh::heh::heh: 
Cheers,
Bev


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## annatogether

Thanks so much, you are my hero again and again! 

I've been looking over your 2010 Tax Tips and Tricks too.

Basically what I understand is that you can not e-file in the same year that you apply for an ITIN anyways!

So I won't waste my time applying for an ITIN and just write "NRA" in the space that asks for his number? I was under the impression that the IRS would not accept "NRA"...

What a relief! This will save me the $50 to get his passport notarized and the 8 weeks of waiting time to get it before I can even file my taxes.


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## Bevdeforges

As you'll see, I've moved this over to the tax section, as I think it contains some information useful to US expats in general.

The IRS has changed the instructions from what they were in the past. Used to be the instructions in Pub 54 basically implied that everyone should get an ITIN for their NRA spouse. And they've never really addressed the issue directly, even since the instructions were re-worded.

Unfortunately, for most tax-filing programs, it's far easier to just program them so that if you check either "married" filing status, you must put in a "ssn" in the "spouse's ssn" blank on the form. That's simply not the case for those of us married to NRA and there is no reason to get an ITIN for a NRA spouse who doesn't fall under US tax jurisdiction.
Cheers,
Bev


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## le_mew

Thank you, Bevdeforges! I somehow just now saw your reply. I am finding your advice useful. I am not sure if the program I am using will allow me to enter NRA or not, so I may have to print and file by mail (though I am so used to TurboTax, and feel I have less risk of errors this way... hm... so pondering.) I think I may contact their support team to see what they recommend, and if no luck in that route, then will be looking for a tax professional who is familiar with international taxes. 

I had read somewhere on the IRS website (I just checked, it is mentioned in the same place you mentioned, Bev, (publication 54) on their site) that an ITIN for my spouse may be needed for tax treaties. I think tax treaties deal with paying applicable income taxes in each country on income that meets the tax treaty specifics. I am not yet clear on if this applies in my situation or not. Still learning. 

If anyone has utilized income tax services of an international tax accountant, (one particularly who is familiar with both France and U.S. income taxes and laws) and has rave reviews, along with their contact info., send me an inbox message please. 



Bevdeforges said:


> Note the phrase "if you elect to file jointly" - it's important.
> 
> If your French spouse was not resident in the US at any time during 2011, you cannot file jointly with him. It's an option only in the year that he arrives in the US or the year he departs the US.
> 
> Normally, as a US citizen married to a "non resident alien" you will file as "married filing separately" which is where the fun starts. Some tax programs will not allow you to file separately unless you fill in the space for spouse's SS number. In practice, if your spouse doesn't have a US SS number, or even if he does, you just indicate "NRA" for non-resident alien where it asks for his number. This basically tells them not to bother trying to find his tax return, since he doesn't need to file one.
> 
> As long as all your income in 2011 is from the US, you can go ahead and file now and get it done with. If you start working in France, you'll have to file a form 2555 to exclude your French salary income - but you'll have fulfilled all the requirements for that by the time you have to file your 2012 forms next year.
> 
> You want to download IRS publication 54 on filing from overseas. It lays out most of what you need to know.
> Cheers,
> Bev


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## le_mew

Update: I just found on the IRS site at this link General ITIN Information under the "How do I know if I need an ITIN?" section the following: "IRS no longer accepts, and will not process, forms showing "SSA205c," "applied for," "NRA," blanks, etc."

Bev, Do you understand that to mean that on a married filing separately return that I should not put NRA on my spouse's SSN line, and thus have to apply for an ITIN for my spouse? 
OR 
Do you think it means that if you are a NRA (nonresident alien) who is filing a return (which would then thus require an ITIN or SSN) that that person cannot put "NRA" on that line? 

I hope my questions are clear.


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## le_mew

One more update: I just found on this IRS (Form 1040 Instructions) file http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf at the top, middle column on page 13, that it says "Be sure to enter your spouse's SSN or ITIN on form 1040. If your spouse does not have and is not required to have an SSN or ITIN, enter "NRA."

I am taking this to mean that I can indeed fill in NRA in the blank for my spouse's SSN, since my spouse does not have and I believe is not required to file, nor to have an SSN or ITIN.


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## Bevdeforges

le_mew said:


> One more update: I just found on this IRS (Form 1040 Instructions) file http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040.pdf at the top, middle column on page 13, that it says "Be sure to enter your spouse's SSN or ITIN on form 1040. If your spouse does not have and is not required to have an SSN or ITIN, enter "NRA."
> 
> I am taking this to mean that I can indeed fill in NRA in the blank for my spouse's SSN, since my spouse does not have and I believe is not required to file, nor to have an SSN or ITIN.


The key sentence in the other reference you gave is the following:



> IRS issues ITINs to foreign nationals and others *who have federal tax reporting or filing requirements *and do not qualify for SSNs.


I can understand that the IRS will not accept tax forms from NRAs who have a reporting or filing requirement with the IRS where they simply put "NRA" in the place of a SSN or ITIN.

But if you are filing your own tax returns separately, you include your SSN - and your spouse does not require an ITIN unless s/he has a filing obligation of their own for some reason.
Cheers,
Bev


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## le_mew

*Thank you!*

Okay. Thank you for your input, Bev! Much appreciated!



Bevdeforges said:


> The key sentence in the other reference you gave is the following:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand that the IRS will not accept tax forms from NRAs who have a reporting or filing requirement with the IRS where they simply put "NRA" in the place of a SSN or ITIN.
> 
> But if you are filing your own tax returns separately, you include your SSN - and your spouse does not require an ITIN unless s/he has a filing obligation of their own for some reason.
> Cheers,
> Bev


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## ric1816

le_mew said:


> I am a US citizen who married a French citizen in 2011, and we reside in France. I am starting on my US income taxes for 2011. I have used TurboTax in previous years before I moved to France, and am planning on using it this year as well if possible.
> 
> My spouse earns no income from the US; all of his income is from France. My 2011 income was from the US; I currently have no personal or business French income.
> 
> One of the first questions the TurboTax program asks is if I want to file my return with my spouse.
> 
> One of my questions is, does my French citizen spouse (or we as a couple) have to pay any US income taxes on his French income now that he is married to a US citizen?
> 
> I sent this question to the IRS and await a reply, and thought I would also ask here to see what others have found for similar circumstances.
> 
> Also, does anyone have advice about paying US income taxes as well as French taxes that may apply to my circumstances?


We are in a similar situation, do not file jointly opt to file "married filing separately" will save you lotsa grief


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## Bevdeforges

One issue is that MFJ subjects the NRA spouse's income to IRS scrutiny - and taxation. There are a number of reasons that "multi-cultural" families may not want that. As the IRS is so fond of saying, "it depends on the facts and circumstances of the individual situation."
Cheers,
Bev


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