# Grand Venetian, Puerto Vallarta



## gringotim

Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about owning a condo in any of the 3 towers at the Grand Venetian condos in Puerto Vallarta. I am not interested in info on the lawsuits etc regarding the construction permits for tower 3000 way back when, I know about that already, really just looking for anything good or bad from current owners regarding the buildings, the property, the HOA, the area, etc. We are moving to PV this year and since we don't want to have a car or rely on taxi's or buses, are considering buying at Grand Venetian due to it being within walking distance to Walmart/Sams Club, Mega, Costco etc. Gratias. P.S. We are not interested in renting, so no need to reply if that's what you want to suggest, as I know some on here would do.


----------



## perropedorro

gringotim said:


> Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about owning a condo in any of the 3 towers at the Grand Venetian condos in Puerto Vallarta. I am not interested in info on the lawsuits etc regarding the construction permits for tower 3000 way back when, I know about that already, really just looking for anything good or bad from current owners regarding the buildings, the property, the HOA, the area, etc. We are moving to PV this year and since we don't want to have a car or rely on taxi's or buses, are considering buying at Grand Venetian due to it being within walking distance to Walmart/Sams Club, Mega, Costco etc. Gratias. P.S. We are not interested in renting, so no need to reply if that's what you want to suggest, as I know some on here would do.


 My only advice would to be to bring money, and lots of it. I'm guessing what my beach house is worth might buy a closet in the Grand Venetian. I'm sure it's very nice.


----------



## gringotim

perropedorro said:


> My only advice would to be to bring money, and lots of it. I'm guessing what my beach house is worth might buy a closet in the Grand Venetian. I'm sure it's very nice.


Haven't bought anything yet, but for what we want at GV, maximum we would need is 75% of what we sold our house in Duncan BC for last year, and living in PV will cost us about 40-50% less per month than what it costs us now, especially if we don't have the costs of a car. We have always been very thrifty, or as friends say, "cheap", but then we say, we retired early and you have to work another 10 years. Suddenly they don't call us cheap anymore.


----------



## joaquinx

Doing a Google search on GV, there seems to be a lot of vacation rentals listed. Perhaps your best avenue here would be to rent a condo for a few weeks before jumping into the sea of ownership.


----------



## TundraGreen

gringotim said:


> …
> P.S. We are not interested in renting, so no need to reply if that's what you want to suggest, as I know some on here would do.





joaquinx said:


> Doing a Google search on GV, there seems to be a lot of vacation rentals listed. Perhaps your best avenue here would be to rent a condo for a few weeks before jumping into the sea of ownership.


We can't resist.


----------



## joaquinx

TundraGreen said:


> We can't resist.


Public forum. OPs have to live with it.


----------



## lagoloo

We can't resist because humans tend to want to be helpful and save others from the pitfalls we know only too much about.........having either fallen in ourselves or know others who have.

So, I can't resist saying: DO A LOT OF RESEARCH ABOUT CONDOS IN MEXICO BEFORE PARTING WITH YOUR MONEY. EASY COME, HARD GO.


----------



## Gatos

gringotim said:


> Haven't bought anything yet, but for what we want at GV, maximum we would need is 75% of what we sold our house in Duncan BC for last year, and living in PV will cost us about 40-50% less per month than what it costs us now, especially if we don't have the costs of a car. We have always been very thrifty, or as friends say, "cheap", but then we say, we retired early and you have to work another 10 years. Suddenly they don't call us cheap anymore.


If we were to move to the coast it would be to the other one - but I'm curious - let's say you buy an ocean front condo for $500K (nice round number) - in PV. What would you expect to pay in annual predial AND what would you expect to pay in monthly maintenance fees ?


----------



## eastwind

Gatos said:


> If we were to move to the coast it would be to the other one - but I'm curious - let's say you buy an ocean front condo for $500K (nice round number) - in PV. What would you expect to pay in annual predial AND what would you expect to pay in monthly maintenance fees ?


I'm curious as well. I'm currently renting a luxury condo in Cancun for a year, and looking ahead to my lease running out in August, have to decide whether to renew the lease or look to buy. So data points on what "typical" luxury condo association fees are would be interesting, if there is any such thing as typical. Cancun got hit by hurricane Wilma and the fees here may still be higher due to paying off that damage.

Also, if you find a way to determine (before buying in) a way to get reliable information on how well funded the condo association is, and how many owners are behind on their dues, I'd be interested in your technique.


----------



## gringotim

Gatos said:


> If we were to move to the coast it would be to the other one - but I'm curious - let's say you buy an ocean front condo for $500K (nice round number) - in PV. What would you expect to pay in annual predial AND what would you expect to pay in monthly maintenance fees ?


I wish we could afford $500K U.S (+4-6% closing costs) (so about $725K Canadian), our budget is up to about $300k U.S.. Property taxes for 1 bdrm, 1000 ish sq ft run around $200 U.S annually, HOA at GV, including water, gas, sewer about $4500 pesos for a 1000 sq ft, 1bd, 2 bth, almost half of what we pay now for 960 sq ft in Nanaimo BC. and $7500 pesos for a 1600 ish sq ft, 2 bd, 2 bth, still less than what we pay now, and in PV its an ocean view, sunnier, warm year round, lower cost of living etc etc etc. 

Renters rent, owners own, so WON`T comment on the renting first posting.:tape:


----------



## Gatos

And you need a trust of sorts as well - no - ? fideo..... ?

$200 USD/year taxes is cheap - we are paying 10X that for our house.

The 7500 pesos HOA fee - that is / month ? We pay about 22,000 pesos / year plus about 4,000 (or so) / year for water.

We rented the first year we were here - 17,000 / month. Before moving here we saw a house we liked a lot and put in at least 2 days going back and forth with offers/counter offers. It is the craziest thing - the 'deal' didn't work because we wanted the round dining room table which could seat maybe 12 people thrown in. After four years that house is still for sale - at a lower price.

It can be very very hard to sell real-estate in Mexico. It can take years. If you buy something and later find out you have the noisiest neighbors on the planet etc -


----------



## gringotim

Gatos said:


> And you need a trust of sorts as well - no - ? fideo..... ?
> -


Yes, but cost is minimal compared to other things. $7500 pesos is per month, but its beachfront, year round warm, sunny weather, and still less than what we pay now, and we have no amenities like a pool, gym security etc. We are not interested in a house, only a condo. Had houses before, maintaining a house, yard etc gets old very fast, been there, done that! Its time to relax and enjoy life. In the last 11 years, my brother in law has paid 60% more in total rent than he could have bought the place for when they moved in, (it was for sale or rent) now its worth 2.5 times what it was 11 years ago, he couldn`t afford to buy it now even if he wanted to. The only one laughing is the owner, not the renter.


----------



## joaquinx

You can have a gardener, a cook, and a maid. Part-time or full-time. Care must be taken not to apply US or Canadian metrics to Mexico.


----------



## perropedorro

Gatos said:


> And you need a trust of sorts as well - no - ? fideo..... ?


A good question. Always thought that condo ownership was essentially owning the air within the walls of your condo and the right to common areas. A corporation actually owns the real estate--and you own a share of that corporation. Sounds sort of like a fideocomiso in itself.


> It can be very very hard to sell real-estate in Mexico. It can take years.


 True dat. There are expat houses in my town that have been on the market for ten years. People get old, health problems force them back to the states for care, or they pass on. Their heirs have no interest in keeping it and try to sell, there are no buyers and the joint deteriorates, but they'll stubbornly maintain the price. NOB, if you sell your place through a realty outfit, they'll pressure you to drop the price if it doesn't move in 90 days. Obviously in Mexico things are different.


----------



## Gatos

gringotim said:


> Yes, but cost is minimal compared to other things. $7500 pesos is per month, but its beachfront, year round warm, sunny weather, and still less than what we pay now, and we have no amenities like a pool, gym security etc. We are not interested in a house, only a condo. Had houses before, maintaining a house, yard etc gets old very fast, been there, done that! Its time to relax and enjoy life. In the last 11 years, my brother in law has paid 60% more in total rent than he could have bought the place for when they moved in, (it was for sale or rent) now its worth 2.5 times what it was 11 years ago, he couldn`t afford to buy it now even if he wanted to. The only one laughing is the owner, not the renter.


I am not advocating buying a house - for us it works because for one thing we have five indoor cats - how would that work in your beach-front condo btw ? We lived within a mile of the beach for 30+ years in south florida - walked on the beach every morning before work. I miss that - but I don't miss a lot of other things - like hurricanes. Does PV get hit with hurricanes ? Do beachfront condos come with impact glass ?

I'm also not advocating being a long term renter - but if someone is willing to give you a chance to try before you buy - or rent with option to buy - I would take that offer.

Finally - before you put any money out - be sure you get a hard copy of the community rules.


----------



## TundraGreen

Gatos said:


> If we were to move to the coast it would be to the other one - but I'm curious - let's say you buy an ocean front condo for $500K (nice round number) - in PV. What would you expect to pay in annual predial AND what would you expect to pay in monthly maintenance fees ?


I don't know about condo fees. Predial in Jalisco on my house is 0.14% of the "nominal" value. The nominal value is quite a bit less than what I paid for it. I think the Notario did that to save me money on taxes although my Spanish at the time was not adequate to understand everything the Notario said. That might come back to bite me in the form of taxes on the appreciation if I ever sold, but that is more likely to be a problem for my kids than for me. I also get a 40% discount on the predial because I am a Mexican citizen over 60. With the discount I am paying 0.09% or in my case $1200 mxn = $60 usd/year. I would gladly pay more if I thought they would use it to clean and/or repair the streets once in awhile.


----------



## Gatos

TundraGreen said:


> I don't know about condo fees. Predial in Jalisco on my house is 0.14% of the "nominal" value. The nominal value is quite a bit less than what I paid for it. I think the Notario did that to save me money on taxes although my Spanish at the time was not adequate to understand everything the Notario said. That might come back to bite me in the form of taxes on the appreciation if I ever sold, but that is more likely to be a problem for my kids than for me. I also get a 40% discount on the predial because I am a Mexican citizen over 60. With the discount I am paying 0.09% or in my case $1200 mxn = $60 usd/year. I would gladly pay more if I thought they would use it to clean and/or repair the streets once in awhile.


You and I have had this back and forth at least twice now. I don't know why our property taxes are as high as they are - and we get the 50% INAPAM discount as well - and our taxes are $2K US after that. The realtor/notario helped us out 'a little' on the value of our house we are taxed on. We have a nice house - but it is not a mansion - but the view is awesome. Still better than the $14K we were paying in the US.

The rains are about a month behind us - they have done a remarkably good job in filling the potholes...

Since we purchased - the laws changed - and I think now you only need to reside in your house for 6 months before being 'vested' in terms of (let's call it) Mexican Capital Gains... (Used to be years).


----------



## eastwind

Yes, long term owning is probably a better deal, depending on when & where you buy in. 

I'm paying about US$21k / yr rent for a beachfront condo in Cancun that might sell for US$400k-500k. With that invested, earning about 3% on top of inflation, the opportunity cost is about $12k to $15k / year that wouldn't be earned if the money was in the condo. And assuming the HOA dues, taxes, and fideoscomo fees are about $6k/yr, it's costing me anywhere from nothing to $3k/yr to rent for the year (vs owning). 

But that's not counting potential increases (or decreases) in the property value. Cancun real estate seems like its fully participating in the global real estate bubble. I can see a couple forces that could cause prices here to stagnate or go down, or the bubble could inflate further before it pops. Of course I don't know what stage of the cycle the PV market is in, it could be depressed because of the violence in places like Acapulco. 

I think $3k is well worth the education I'm getting on the specific condo, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, annoyances of Mexico living and the general flexibility of being able to change my mind after a year and move back to the US. And a year from now it should be clearer how Trump's tax changes will affect things.

Owning is definitely cheaper in the long run, with renting you're offloading a large number of significant risks onto your landlord, and you have to pay for that just as you would any other insurance.


----------



## gringotim

joaquinx said:


> You can have a gardener, a cook, and a maid. Part-time or full-time. Care must be taken not to apply US or Canadian metrics to Mexico.


Only in our late 50`s, Don't want, or need a cook, or a maid. Part-time or full-time. And in a condo, won`t need a gardener.:yo:...and won`t need bars on our windows and doors either, unlike a lot of houses. :eek2:


----------



## eastwind

When I moved in, they sort of pushed me into hiring a maid. The apartment manager didn't ask if I wanted one, but rather "who are you going to have clean". When I said I didn't know, she recommended someone who apparently cleans several other apartments she also manages. She's nice, comes weekly, spends 3 hours cleaning, doing laundry and washing dishes, and charges 350 pesos. That's probably twice what a maid in town would ask, but it's a wealthy condo, and it's only about 5 bucks an hour, and I didn't have to try to find her or vet her. I think she works full time just cleaning units in this condo building. She probably does 2 or 3 a day, and there are many more than 15 units, so she's not doing them all. Stimulating the local economy via trickle-down seems to be expected. 

There's another nice guy who comes in the evenings (probably after another day job) and washes cars in the parking garage. If I get a car, I assume I'll have to pay him for weekly hand washes for it. My old beat up SUV in the US went ten years without being washed other than by the rain.

I wonder if I should have given my maid a Christmas bonus. I couldn't, because I was temporarily out of cash last week due to paying the rent and after paying her I only had 50 pesos left until I went to the ATM!


----------



## Gatos

gringotim said:


> Only in our late 50`s, Don't want, or need a cook, or a maid. Part-time or full-time. And in a condo, won`t need a gardener.:yo:...and won`t need bars on our windows and doors either, unlike a lot of houses. :eek2:


So - with all this free time you will have - you are planning on performing a lot of charity work ?


----------



## gringotim

Gatos said:


> So - with all this free time you will have - you are planning on performing a lot of charity work ?


:noidea:


----------



## TundraGreen

eastwind said:


> When I moved in, they sort of pushed me into hiring a maid. The apartment manager didn't ask if I wanted one, but rather "who are you going to have clean". When I said I didn't know, she recommended someone who apparently cleans several other apartments she also manages. She's nice, comes weekly, spends 3 hours cleaning, doing laundry and washing dishes, and charges 350 pesos. That's probably twice what a maid in town would ask, but it's a wealthy condo, and it's only about 5 bucks an hour, and I didn't have to try to find her or vet her. I think she works full time just cleaning units in this condo building. She probably does 2 or 3 a day, and there are many more than 15 units, so she's not doing them all. Stimulating the local economy via trickle-down seems to be expected.
> 
> There's another nice guy who comes in the evenings (probably after another day job) and washes cars in the parking garage. If I get a car, I assume I'll have to pay him for weekly hand washes for it. My old beat up SUV in the US went ten years without being washed other than by the rain.
> 
> I wonder if I should have given my maid a Christmas bonus. I couldn't, because I was temporarily out of cash last week due to paying the rent and after paying her I only had 50 pesos left until I went to the ATM!


You did owe your cleaning lady an aguinaldo at the end of the year, the equivalent of two weeks pay more or less. I pay my cleaning lady $250 mxn for 5 hours of work once a week for comparison.


----------



## TundraGreen

Gatos said:


> You and I have had this back and forth at least twice now. I don't know why our property taxes are as high as they are - and we get the 50% INAPAM discount as well - and our taxes are $2K US after that. The realtor/notario helped us out 'a little' on the value of our house we are taxed on. We have a nice house - but it is not a mansion - but the view is awesome. Still better than the $14K we were paying in the US.
> 
> The rains are about a month behind us - they have done a remarkably good job in filling the potholes...
> 
> Since we purchased - the laws changed - and I think now you only need to reside in your house for 6 months before being 'vested' in terms of (let's call it) Mexican Capital Gains... (Used to be years).


Yes, I remember the difference in predial discussion. I can't remember where you are or if you said. Maybe the difference is due to the different states. I believe my predial goes to Jalisco, not the city of Guadalajara.


----------



## eastwind

TundraGreen said:


> You did owe your cleaning lady an aguinaldo at the end of the year, the equivalent of two weeks pay more or less. I pay my cleaning lady $250 mxn for 5 hours of work once a week for comparison.


Is there any special way it's presented? Like with a card (US way) or in a red envelope (chinese way). I can still do it, right? She only started for me beginning of October...


----------



## TundraGreen

eastwind said:


> Is there any special way it's presented? Like with a card (US way) or in a red envelope (chinese way). I can still do it, right? She only started for me beginning of October...


Not as far as I know. Maybe others will tell me I have been uncultured all these years. I just add the cash to their regular weekly pay around the 15th of December and orally tell them what it is for.

Since she just started in October for you, you probably could give her less than two weeks equivalent, maybe one.


----------



## eastwind

TundraGreen said:


> Not as far as I know. Maybe others will tell me I have been uncultured all these years. I just add the cash to their regular weekly pay around the 15th of December and orally tell them what it is for.
> 
> Since she just started in October for you, you probably could give her less than two weeks equivalent, maybe one.


Thanks - sorry for the temporary thread hijack


----------



## RVGRINGO

Aguinaldo is due by Dec 20th. It is pro-rated and details can be found at rollybrook.com.
Does the maid work for you, or for the condo? If she works for you, you really should have a contract outlining the conditions of employment, duties, pay, etc. It will prevent serious claims from arrising later.


----------



## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> Aguinaldo is due by Dec 20th. It is pro-rated and details can be found at rollybrook.com.
> Does the maid work for you, or for the condo? If she works for you, you really should have a contract outlining the conditions of employment, duties, pay, etc. It will prevent serious claims from arising later.


I have no doubt that you are correct. But I wonder how often this is actually done in practice. The woman who works for me has been here for 7 years now. We have nothing written between us. I pay her the same amount every week, including those times when I am out of town. When I am here, she spends 5 hours cleaning once a week. When I am gone she checks on the house daily but doesn't have to clean it those weeks. I am usually away for one month every year, and occasional shorter trips. When she is sick she gets a paid sick day. It only happened once. Once a year she gets a paid holiday, i.e. I pay her but she can skip cleaning for that week. 

Quite often, when she is short of cash, I will pay her part or all of a week in advance. Once I paid her for four weeks in advance and then deducted 25% from her pay for the following month. I have done this for years and never had any issues with her working off the loan. 

In October of last year, I started a notebook where I record when she arrives, when she leaves, and how much I have paid her. I was having problems with her arriving later and later every week and spending a lot of time on the phone. So I established a rule about when she arrives and banned the use of her cell in my house. The problems both went away. I find it very unlikely that she will ever dispute anything, but in that unlikely event, will the notebook be of any value in documenting the arrangement between us?


----------



## Gatos

TundraGreen said:


> I have no doubt that you are correct. But I wonder how often this is actually done in practice. The woman who works for me has been here for 7 years now. We have nothing written between us. I pay her the same amount every week, including those times when I am out of town. When I am here, she spends 5 hours cleaning once a week. When I am gone she checks on the house daily but doesn't have to clean it those weeks. I am usually away for one month every year, and occasional shorter trips. When she is sick she gets a paid sick day. It only happened once. Once a year she gets a paid holiday, i.e. I pay her but she can skip cleaning for that week.
> 
> Quite often, when she is short of cash, I will pay her part or all of a week in advance. Once I paid her for four weeks in advance and then deducted 25% from her pay for the following month. I have done this for years and never had any issues with her working off the loan.
> 
> In October of last year, I started a notebook where I record when she arrives, when she leaves, and how much I have paid her. I was having problems with her arriving later and later every week and spending a lot of time on the phone. So I established a rule about when she arrives and banned the use of her cell in my house. The problems both went away. I find it very unlikely that she will ever dispute anything, but in that unlikely event, will the notebook be of any value in documenting the arrangement between us?


We have been very careful and up-front with anyone who has done any work for us. They are contractors - not employees. For every piece of work anyone has done for us in Mexico - at the house - we have a form we have them fill out and sign which describes the work performed and the monies received (as payment in full). We have been told - by friends - that we pay very well. If someone does something special (like we had a guy who loaned us a piece of equipment) we give them a little something extra. Just about everyone who comes to the house leaves with bags of fruit. For Christmas everyone - the guards, the gardener, the garbage guys, the mechanic, the metal works guys, the albanil - my wife makes them plates of cookies/sweets.

We have never had a 'girl' come to clean the house. That I think might be a special relationship. Just last week we had a woman come by - the wife of the herrero - gave her the keys to the house and she has agreed to feed the cats for us if we travel. Shouldn't take her more than 10 minutes a day. We asked how much she wanted to be paid and she responded - whatever we thought was fair. I was thinking 100 pesos/visit.


----------



## eastwind

What's with the side comment about a special relationship. The word you put in single quotes does not appear anywhere else in anyone else's post. I avoid using it to make the search results clearer. I have a maid, that's a job description, the word is used in the sense of a job description not the archaic definition that assigns age and gender. Maybe my maid is a person of trans gender. I didn't ask. Asking would certainly imply a special relationship.

And what is the source of this caution about the difference between employees and contractors? If in the US, you have to be careful that you don't owe the employer's portion of the social security tax. That would not apply to people employed in mexico as far as the US govt is concerned. 
Is there a similar consideration with Mexican employment law?


----------



## Gatos

eastwind said:


> What's with the side comment about a special relationship. The word you put in single quotes does not appear anywhere else in anyone else's post. I avoid using it to make the search results clearer. I have a maid, that's a job description, the word is used in the sense of a job description not the archaic definition that assigns age and gender. Maybe my maid is a person of trans gender. I didn't ask. Asking would certainly imply a special relationship.
> 
> And what is the source of this caution about the difference between employees and contractors? If in the US, you have to be careful that you don't owe the employer's portion of the social security tax. That would not apply to people employed in mexico as far as the US govt is concerned.
> Is there a similar consideration with Mexican employment law?


This, friend, is the last response you will ever receive from me. My posts seem to irk you. Perhaps we are just not meant to get along. With whatever respect you feel you are due - please add me to your ignore list.


----------



## lagoloo

The employee-employee relationship in Mexico is fraught with potholes and topes. If you hire a maid or gardener as your employee, it is best to have a clear contract drawn up. Well worth the cost of having it done by a lawyer.

I knew nada about this when I first moved to Mexico and the nice lady who cleaned our house, upon being terminated because we moved elsewhere in Mexico, went to the labor board and claimed she'd been working for us for a year before the house was built. The labor board nearly always sides with the employee, but we did win that round with the help of the builder. However, we had no contract and no records of cash payments made for vacations, aguinaldos, etc. It was an expensive and painful learning experience. Now, we hire a contract service which sends cleaners over once a week. Much simpler.


----------



## TundraGreen

Gatos said:


> …They are contractors - not employees. …


I think the distinction between employees and contractors is different in Mexico than in the US. Anyone who works for you regularly is entitled to aguinaldos and termination benefits. People who come in once or very irregularly, like a plumber who is called to fix a leak, are not entitled to those benefits.


----------



## lagoloo

In the case I cited about using a contract service, the maids work for the contract business itself and are paid the aguinaldos, etc. by that business, which also pays their IMSS and bonds them.


----------



## gringotim

:focus:


----------



## lagoloo

Okay, okay.....back to the matter of condos.
One of the things that, IMO, make owning a condo less desirable than owning a house that is small enough to be manageable is all about OTHER PEOPLE. People responsible for maintaining the general facility. People who don't pay their fees, resulting is less funds to do the maintainance. People who rent out their condos to problem people. People who live next door and are noisy, sometimes most of the night. And so on.
Yes, of course your neighbors next door in a house can cause problems, too.....but there are so many things you share with your neighbors in a condo development. Less control over the situation is the basic issue. More freedom to have it your way. Just something to think about.


----------



## surabi

Yes, this thread was about condos, but then got onto employees. Threads do that sometimes. You owe, BY MEXICAN LAW, your employees Xmas bonus, and vacation pay, and, if you terminate them, severance pay. A notebook listing the days a maid has worked for you and how much you paid her would be absolutely useless if she takes you to labor relations. People need contracts, or at the very least, have the employees sign for what you give them.


----------



## gringotim

surabi said:


> Yes, this thread was about condos, but then got onto employees.....


Actually, and more specifically , it was about "owning a condo in any of the 3 towers at the Grand Venetian condos in Puerto Vallarta" :noidea:


----------



## lagoloo

It seems that you're hoping for someone who posts on here who either owns or used to own a condo in the Grand Venetian in Puerto Vallarta? So far, nobody on here fills the bill, but I do think you've had some useful replies about condo ownership in general.

You might have better luck seeking out a Puerta Vallarta local forum to get answers. Most larger towns have one.

Buena Suerte and welcome.


----------

