# Is this a concern?



## Agapito (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi All

Because this is in the Daily Mail is it a cause of concern?

Brits with holiday homes in Spain and France may be banned from renting them out to tourists | Mail Online


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Agapito said:


> Hi All
> 
> Because this is in the Daily Mail is it a cause of concern?
> 
> Brits with holiday homes in Spain and France may be banned from renting them out to tourists | Mail Online



it certainly isn't just aimed at foreigners - & isn't even new


in many/most areas a license has been required for holiday lets of all description

of course so many people have ignored it & have also ignored the requirement to declare the income & pay tax on it

that has led to a crack-down


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Agapito said:


> Because this is in the Daily Mail is it a cause of concern?


It depends on how you want to view it.

It's not really new, it's been muted for some time and is already in operation in the Canary Islands where a lot of people are being hit by big fines for breaching the new laws.

Personally, I see it as a good thing and will in the medium to longer term be good for the Spanish economy. It's high time the Spanish authorities stamped out this 'black market and under the counter' economy of private owners letting out properties, pocketing the gains and paying no tax.

At the end of the day, if you can't afford to buy and run a property in Spain without having to resort to rental income helping to pay for it, you can't afford one and shouldn't be buying one. Far too many people who can't afford properties are doing just this to justify it.

By licensing and regulating the rental market the government ensures a better quality of accommodation and service to holiday makers and ensures the property owners are paying taxes on their income.

I don't expect too many people will agree with this view!


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## Agapito (Dec 3, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> It depends on how you want to view it.
> 
> I don't expect too many people will agree with this view!


I for one totally agree with your view.

We only have to look at the situation in Greece to understand how the black economy causes problems, not only for the Greeks, but for Europe in general.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hahaha, you've got to laugh


> Anybody – including Britons as well as French citizens – who rents one out for any period will be deemed to have changed its use, incurring a hefty penalty.



Yes, that's right Daily Mail, anybody includes not ONLY the native population, but EVEN Britons!!

There was a thread about this earlier on in the year and I remember elenetxu posting aboput Santander on it. Can anybody track down the thread?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Not Santander, but rather the big tourist beach towns to its east.


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

A few years ago we rented an apartment on Tenerife from Brits. Some of the plug points were hanging off the walls so we didn't use them. The owner was back in Britain so we didn't complain to the neighbour who was looking after the property. If the property had to be registered maybe this problem wouldn't exist.

If someone was electrocuted from such bad wiring the authorities would be vilified for not regulating properties. The problem in Spain is that regulations need regulations to understand them and everything is made hard for people wanting to comply.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The Daily Mail is the voice of the whingeing Brit immigrant who seems to think that Spanish rules and laws are aimed solely at inconveniencing them and no-one else.

Not just the Daily Heil either.. Two letters in this week's EWN amused me: one from a British woman moaning about the price of sending rectangular Christmas cards to Europe, something she said was clearly aimed at foreigners. Of course not one Spaniard ever sends Christmas or any other cards of any shape, square, rectangular or pentagonal to anywhere but Spain...

The second was from a woman who had been living here over six years and was complaining that no-one at her Endesa office spoke English. She described herself as the 'average non-Spanish-speaking expat'. Six years in Spain....
I was tempted to reply that I found it difficult to locate a Spanish-speaking person in the Leighton Buzzard offices of PowerGen but thought the irony would be lost on her.

When will some Brits stop viewing Spain as Eastbourne with the outdoor heating turned up???


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The Daily Mail is the voice of the whingeing Brit immigrant who seems to think that Spanish rules and laws are aimed solely at inconveniencing them and no-one else.
> 
> 
> The second was from a woman who had been living here over six years and was complaining that no-one at her Endesa office spoke English. She described herself as the 'average non-Spanish-speaking expat'. Six years in Spain....
> ...


The Daily Mail is also the Ex Pat bashing rag.

Nothing wrong with Leighton Buzzard, I can trace my ancestors back to 1400 in and around that area:canada:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> The Daily Mail is also the Ex Pat bashing rag.
> 
> Nothing wrong with Leighton Buzzard, I can trace my ancestors back to 1400 in and around that area:canada:


They probably spoke French...


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

If you live in UK, own a villa in Spain and rent it out you should ensure that you have a licence to do this and that the property is in proper order. One of the driving forces behind the 'crackdown' are hotel (chains) that offer all inclusive deals - which help to wreck the economy of local restaurants and bars - and they don't like people holidaying in villas on self catering deals. Now of course, many folk hate hotels and want to stay in a villa and look after themselves. Nothing wrong so far. The problem is that if you live in UK and the income from the rental goes to you in the UK then you pay tax in the UK as you are not a tax resident in Spain and the Spanish tax authorities apparently don't like this. Of course, as you own the property in Spain you don't escape the taxes associated with having a property in Spain and you must pay them. What I see as a bit short sighted is that people who want this type of holiday bring a lot of money here and spend it here. If the authorities make it difficult or impossible to rent out your property then the holiday makers will simply go somewhere else and that will be a loss of income to the restaurants, bars and supermarkets etc.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

**** SPAIN :llama:


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

deanhankin said:


> **** SPAIN :llama:




I don't have a place in Spain because I can't afford one and I also don't own a place in the UK because I can't afford one there either, I rent and as such have the freedom to go where I like..... Or that used to be the case. 

I do like to visit Spain because I have friends there, I happen to like the people, the scenery and of course the climate, I also feel I have a part of my life invested in Spain after having spent lengthy spells there and after taking the time to learn the language but this constant barrage of regulation and unnecessary lawmaking coming out of Spain and the EU is getting to the point where I feel like throwing in the towel with Europe all together.

So what if a struggling family want to rent out their spare room to a traveler every once in a while? Whats the big deal? This hurts everyone from backpackers to travelers who can't afford the hotel rates to poor Spanish families to the ex pat with an apartment in Torremolinos, the only people who are not affected are the ones who have big villas who can afford not to rent them out. 

I won't be going to Fuengirola with the bucket and spade crew to stay in the hotel Yaramar, it's not my scene! I like to spend my time away from the busy coastal areas so what's the alternative? South America, probably.

Ever more punitive laws designed by the OECD to stop the international flow of capital and assets. It's just the latest attempt to stop people moving around Europe freely.

What these governments really fear isn't the loss of a few Euro's in tax money it's the massed ranks of the mobile poor


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

thrax said:


> The problem is that if you live in UK and the income from the rental goes to you in the UK then you pay tax in the UK as you are not a tax resident in Spain and the Spanish tax authorities apparently don't like this. .


Unless something has changed I don't think that's true. IIRC Spain has a flat tax rate on rentals owned by non residents. 25%??? 

I can't think of any reason Spain wouldn't be taxing in this situation.


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

I have rented property 'direct' through owners, who are normally based outside of Spain. Obviously, the 'owner' (can) side step any tax as the occupancy of their property can only be confirmed via accounting scrutiny. 

Both the French and Spanish would prefer you to spend your accommodation costs on holiday in a way that would create extra taxes, via accredited agents (hotels/apartments etc).

Can't blame them to be honest, if this goes through in a 'complete' law I can see widespread departure by second home owners. I know two who have already stated yesterday that they would have to sell as the viability of their 'holiday' home is only through letting ... with a fair amount being done far, far away from Spanish taxation.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Expatliving said:


> I have rented property 'direct' through owners, who are normally based outside of Spain. Obviously, the 'owner' (can) side step any tax as *the occupancy of their property can only be confirmed via accounting scrutiny. *
> 
> Both the French and Spanish would prefer you to spend your accommodation costs on holiday in a way that would create extra taxes, via accredited agents (hotels/apartments etc).
> 
> Can't blame them to be honest, if this goes through in a 'complete' law I can see widespread departure by second home owners. I know two who have already stated yesterday that they would have to sell as the viability of their 'holiday' home is only through letting ... with a fair amount being done far, far away from Spanish taxation.



the local & national govt have access to gas, electricity & water usage - while this might not _prove _occupancy, it would go a long way to strongly suggesting it


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Expatliving said:


> Obviously, the 'owner' (can) side step any tax as the occupancy of their property can only be confirmed via accounting scrutiny.


Not true.

All it takes is one neighbour to file a complaint. 

It's also not unusual for competitors to file complaints.

Then of course the biggest friend of tax auditors. AKA ex wives. Wouldn't be the first time an ex wife reported years of evasion.

I can't remember the name at the moment but there is a bit of software widely used by various countries. It surfs the web looking for info. Basically a computer bot. It's almost ten years since the various tax groups have been using it. It's not that hard for them to compare the places for rent on the web with the tax reports. It's just computer time.


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