# US tourists ask Madrileños to translate homophobic rant



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The gay couple in this video are played by actors, but the responses from local people are genuine - and quite heartwarming.

Gay rights in Spain: Video: US tourists ask Madrileños to translate homophobic rant | In English | EL PAÍS



> A gay couple from the United States makes a reservation online to stay at a hostel in Madrid. When they ask for directions on how to reach it, they receive a message in Spanish from the owner and, not speaking a word of the language, ask for help translating it from passers-by. The note is filled with homophobic insults, including a threat to punch them in the face if they even think about kissing each other inside the hostel.
> 
> The spontaneous reactions of the people reading out the note to them are recorded in an English-language, Spanish-subtitled video produced by Spain’s State Federation of Lesbian, Gays Transsexuals and Bisexuals (FELGTB) for its new campaign, Con la voz bien alta (With a loud voice).


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Brilliant!!!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Amazing. Very heart warming.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

As Thrax said, brilliant!
Maybe it was the music, but it literally brought tears to my eyes, as the translators felt so uncomfortable and so angry on behalf of the couple.

However, this was in totally gay friendly Chueca as is mentioned in the video. I'mnot sure they would have got the same reaction in Aravaca, Majadahonda or Pozuelo all "pijo" districts just outside Madrid.
My MIL specifically asked to be taken there one year and then proceeded to ask in a very loud voice "¿Y estos, son *******es?" Even though we kept telling her that mari**n is not actually a nice thing to say. I don't know about Chueca being the pink area of Madrid but OH and I were pretty pink in the face after MIL comments


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

The only homophobic reactions down here I have ever seen have been from English men. Never from Spanish.


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

sorry to burst your bubble but its a fake, it was a set up, look it up on that thar tinterweb, the people being asked obviously could see the multiple cameras, fake.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

hibiscus123 said:


> sorry to burst your bubble but its a fake, it was a set up, look it up on that thar tinterweb, the people being asked obviously could see the multiple cameras, fake.


Give us the link please?


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## stefig (Jul 14, 2015)

My first thought was it must be fake because what are the chances of finding so many people that fluent in English?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

stefig said:


> My first thought was it must be fake because what are the chances of finding so many people that fluent in English?


In the centre of Madrid, quite high I should think. We don't know how many people they asked in total, or how long it took to find English speakers.

Obviously it's edited to make a point, but I still believe the responses are genuine. I Googled in vain for the evidence of fakery, so hopefully Hibiscus123 will enlighten us shortly.


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alcalaina said:


> In the centre of Madrid, quite high I should think. We don't know how many people they asked in total, or how long it took to find English speakers.
> 
> Obviously it's edited to make a point, but I still believe the responses are genuine. I Googled in vain for the evidence of fakery, so hopefully Hibiscus123 will enlighten us shortly.


nope.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

stefig said:


> My first thought was it must be fake because what are the chances of finding so many people that fluent in English?


In a capital city of millions, and in a trendy area (not rich or well off, just modern and forward thinking) like Chueca you do find people who speak English. Note, only a few in the video speak *good* English.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

hibiscus123 said:


> you look it up what am I your bloody butler jeezzzz.


Bliiimey, what's with the attitude?
If you post something which cites internet you're supposed to give a link.
Jeeezzzzz


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Bliiimey, what's with the attitude?
> If you post something which cites internet you're supposed to give a link.
> Jeeezzzzz


let me bat the ball back over the net, prove it isn't fake, actors playing a gay couple with the reactions of the people being highly edited, there are loads of these types of 'videos' out on the net dealing with all manner of social issues and loads get found out to total set ups to get minority views out in the media, sorry but fake, also I have got no hidden agenda by calling out this particular video as fake, it just is.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

hibiscus123 said:


> let me bat the ball back over the net, prove it isn't fake, actors playing a gay couple with the reactions of the people being highly edited, there are loads of these types of 'videos' out on the net dealing with all manner of social issues and loads get found out to total set ups to get minority views out in the media, sorry but fake, also I have got no hidden agenda by calling out this particular video as fake, it just is.


Personally I'm quite willing to believe it's fake. Some of the people don't look like they are from the Chueca area, nor would they be just passing through. I think it would be really tacky for the _Federación de Lesbianas, Gays y Transexuales _to do that though , so for the moment I lean towards the "It's real" side of the table and just you saying you've seen on t'internet that it's a fake isn't going to convince me. I do think it's absolutely wrong of you to state that it's a fake though and not back it up.
I've got no hidden agenda either only a slight interest in the treatment of LGT's (shouldn't there be a "B" in there?)


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## stefig (Jul 14, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In a capital city of millions, and in a trendy area (not rich or well off, just modern and forward thinking) like Chueca you do find people who speak English. Note, only a few in the video speak *good* English.


There's just something off about it. Even the ones who are supposedly not very good at English are banging out phrases that sound quite native-like. I suppose I'm cynical about these kind of videos, as there are so many similar ones which have turned out to be fake.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

hibiscus123 said:


> let me bat the ball back over the net, prove it isn't fake, actors playing a gay couple with the reactions of the people being highly edited, there are loads of these types of 'videos' out on the net dealing with all manner of social issues and loads get found out to total set ups to get minority views out in the media, sorry but fake, also I have got no hidden agenda by calling out this particular video as fake, it just is.


Nope, trying to reverse the burden of proof will get you nowhere.

You have made the claim of 'fake' and it's up to you to support it... if you can.


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

I am out of here, but before I go I have just got a new supply of magic beans in, 3 for E10 plus p+p, PM me to place an order, LOL I can't believe you lot believe everything you see on youtube.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Bah am well dissapointed now if this was a fake.

Thought it was very heartening, but turns out its tosh.

Grrrrr. I hate all people!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

A connected video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=65&v=-ybAlFrV8f4

Still nothing in any media about the Madrid video being fake...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

hibiscus123 said:


> I am out of here, but before I go I have just got a new supply of magic beans in, 3 for E10 plus p+p, PM me to place an order, LOL I can't believe you lot believe everything you see on youtube.


Firstly, I don't believe everything I see on YouTube, but that video was in El País, a reputable and generally reliable Spanish newspaper.

I am perfectly willing to accept that it was a fake if someone can produce the evidence. I spent a good 15 minutes searching for it, as you suggested yesterday. I couldn't find any, and since you are so unwilling to reveal what you supposedly found, it looks like it's not El Pais that's making things up.

Enjoy your beans. :wave:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Personally I'm quite willing to believe it's fake. Some of the people don't look like they are from the Chueca area, nor would they be just passing through. I think it would be really tacky for the _Federación de Lesbianas, Gays y Transexuales _to do that though , so for the moment I lean towards the "It's real" side of the table and just you saying you've seen on t'internet that it's a fake isn't going to convince me. I do think it's absolutely wrong of you to state that it's a fake though and not back it up.
> I've got no hidden agenda either only a slight interest in the treatment of LGT's (shouldn't there be a "B" in there?)


I'm gay and I couldn't give a toss whether the clip is fake or not as it bears zero relation to individual experiences which depend very much on the situation and the people involved.
We have to beware of a tendency to assume that Spain is a tolerant, welcoming paradise where everyone is liberal-thinking and broad-minded. It isn't. I'm Vice-President of a LGBT rights group which lobbies local town halls to adopt anti-homophobia action plans and delivers workshops to schools and police. I've found people's attitudes to be no different from any other country I've lived in or spent time in. Since the elections in May with more PSOE Mayors now in power in Malaga province, the attitudes of Aytos have been more positive and welcoming...but then our Ayto is PP controlled and Concejales participated in IDAHO - International Day against Homophobia -and made supportive speeches. The PP Concejala who marries people whether gay or straight and I have differences over gay marriage -she supports it ad I don't! 
I think that in most countries there is a vociferous homophobic minority and a 'cuddle a gay' vociferous 'see how liberal I am ' minority. But most people aren't interested in what people do with their genitalia as they are preoccupied with mundane concerns like work, paying the bills, family and so on...like most gays, really. I classify this as tolerant disinterest, an attitude I welcome. I'm like everyone else, not some special species.
So there is homophobia in Spain, just as in the UK, Germany, France...much more so though in Poland where homophobia is rife and vicious. I was asked to help steward a Gay Pride march in a Polish city and although not a timid person I chickened out as I was aware of the violence that usually accompany these events and I'm old and can't run fast...There is also gender violence but as Stefig pointed out so there is in the UK, maybe worse.
Spanish people aren't born with haloes. Like the rest of Europe, you find all sorts, the nice and the nasty.
A couple of points, though....Muslim communities in the UK are more likely to exhibit homophobic attitudes and this is becoming a problem in some areas.
And yes, PW, the B should be included....and some groups now include Q and I....Queer and Intersex.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

If I may ask Mrypg and I mean this with utmost respect , in your experience what actually is it that causes some to have a problem with others sexuality?

I find it yet another bizarre hatred for anyone to have. 
Yes I have been on the hard left all my days so I suppose I am bound to find these cretins hard to fathom, but I genuinely would love to know what you believe the haters issue actually is

We hear racist nutjobs telling people to " go home" etc - pathetic of course but in their warped world they want their perceived enemies to go to another country(????) but what is it that LGBT haters actually "want"

Again please excuse me if I have worded my genuine query indelicately ( I know we got cross wires when I previously mentioned my hatred of racism)


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alcalaina said:


> Firstly, I don't believe everything I see on YouTube, but that video was in El País, a reputable and generally reliable Spanish newspaper.
> 
> I am perfectly willing to accept that it was a fake if someone can produce the evidence. I spent a good 15 minutes searching for it, as you suggested yesterday. I couldn't find any, and since you are so unwilling to reveal what you supposedly found, it looks like it's not El Pais that's making things up.
> 
> Enjoy your beans. :wave:


just because El Pais posted the video doesn't really give it any authenticity, it was produce by a gay pressure group and was heavily edited, what would you say if you had been asked to translate a letter in front of a full camera crew on the street, tell them that your not interested and walk away or feign disgust? as for trying to find the article about fake made up syrupy vids it was in an article about all the other fake vids that are doing the rounds on the net, it was a good few days ago that i read it and for the life of me can't find it again myself (seems convenient I know), if I come across it in the future I will post on here for you. I am knocking this thread on the head now,,,,,,,, its fake!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A connected video
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=65&v=-ybAlFrV8f4
> 
> Still nothing in any media about the Madrid video being fake...


Assuming it isn't a fake....what, precisely, is the point of it?
Stuff like that isn't going to change people's attitudes.
Years of campaigning by assorted LGBT groups in the UK achieved less in changing attitudes than the gay couple in 'EastEnders' or the famous lesbian kiss in 'Brookside' or Elton John, Samantha Fox and George Michael coming out as gay..
Changing public attitudes enabled the last Labour Government to introduce legislation such as the abolition of the much misunderstood Clause 28, equalisation of the age of consent, Civil Partnerships, same-sex survivor pension benefits, employment protection and the outlawing of discrimination in the provision of goods and services.
These measures, passed by that dreadful right-wing pseudo Tory Blair were accepted by the public because the groundwork of changing attitudes had been done.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> If I may ask Mrypg and I mean this with utmost respect , in your experience what actually is it that causes some to have a problem with others sexuality?
> 
> I find it yet another bizarre hatred for anyone to have.
> Yes I have been on the hard left all my days so I suppose I am bound to find these cretins hard to fathom, but I genuinely would love to know what you believe the haters issue actually is
> ...


It's a good question which deserves a thoughtful reply which I hope this is.
First of all, most of us have intolerances of some sort or other, whether deeply ingrained or merely superficial. I certainly have prejudices - not going to reveal them here, though...
In the same way, we all have preferences, which sometimes we can't give reasons for.
Very few people actually 'hate' gays. Yes, there are those who do and they are usually also racists and misogenists -can never spell that word. Then there are those violent types who like to give a thrashing to anyone they take a dislike to.
Some homophobes are inadequate types with few chances in life...nature's born losers. You'll find these types in chav culture.
When it comes to people with genuine abhorrence of same-sex relations because of religious belief, imo these people deserve some respect, as long as they don't impose their views on others in such a way as to restrict their freedom or resort to violence. People have a right to regard homosexuality as sinful, if that's what their religion teaches. Toleration doesn't imply approval, it means you don't interfere with others' rights.
I have been a public figure, active in local politics, teaching in the town where my partner and I lived. In all those years I have never experienced open homophobia. Maybe people have made homophobic comments 'behind my back' but that shows timidity on their part, really, and what I haven't heard doesn't affect me. It was and is well-known that I don't tolerate disrespect whatever form it takes, whether as a gay person, a woman or now an older person. The Almighty gave me a big mouth and it's known that I'll use it.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Well, fake or not fake, the video is made to prove a point. So relax Mr Hibiscus, and try to be happier, a fake video of homophobic content is not worth a heart attack. Relaxxxxxx....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Oh, and the 'hard left' aren't immune from homophobia, far from it, sadly. In my younger days I was an active paid-up member of the hard left. Homosexuality, like prostitution, was seen as a social problem, a product of capitalism, which would cease to exist with the advent of socialism.
I have many friends on the hard left and some of them are very prejudiced indeed.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Lots of gay haters are in the closet themselves...

Simple!


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## stefig (Jul 14, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> If I may ask Mrypg and I mean this with utmost respect , in your experience what actually is it that causes some to have a problem with others sexuality?
> 
> I find it yet another bizarre hatred for anyone to have.
> Yes I have been on the hard left all my days so I suppose I am bound to find these cretins hard to fathom, but I genuinely would love to know what you believe the haters issue actually is
> ...


There are still plenty of people around who believe that being gay is a choice and that gay people should just start behaving themselves and go back to being 'normal'. Such people believe that promoting LGBT rights will 'encourage' more people to 'become' gay, so therefore continuing to discriminate against gay people will help them to see the error of their ways.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

stefig said:


> There are still plenty of people around who believe that being gay is a choice and that gay people should just start behaving themselves and go back to being 'normal'. Such people believe that promoting LGBT rights will 'encourage' more people to 'become' gay, so therefore continuing to discriminate against gay people will help them to see the error of their ways.


That, imo, is a misguided but acceptable view and doesn't per se imply hatred, more likely pity. Neither do people who hold such views necessarily oppose anti-discrimination laws.
People are complicated. Why should everyone be like Call Me Dave and hug not a hoodie but a gay? I have no right to automatic acceptance and respect but I do have a right to equality under the law. Big difference.
You can legislate against discrimination but you can't legislate for equality of 'esteem'. People's thoughts are their own, thankfully. I know many LGBT people who are themselves very intolerant. 
The best ever advice I've seen is the Stonewall slogan 'Some people are gay. Get over it'. 
It really is -or should be -no big deal.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh, and the 'hard left' aren't immune from homophobia, far from it, sadly. In my younger days I was an active paid-up member of the hard left. Homosexuality, like prostitution, was seen as a social problem, a product of capitalism, which would cease to exist with the advent of socialism.
> I have many friends on the hard left and some of them are very prejudiced indeed.


Well that's your experience - def not mine. Then again English hard left can be different than that of some groups here in the North of Ireland.

I would also differ from your opinion when it comes to religion and hatred- there I have 50+ years first hand experience of extreme religious hatred and its consequences


Thanks for your thorough reply . I find it hard to get inside some of the haters heads.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm gay and I couldn't give a toss whether the clip is fake or not as it bears zero relation to individual experiences which depend very much on the situation and the people involved.
> Well I'm not gay and I think the attitudes of the people on the video are very much related to the reaction people like me may have to a letter like that. I would *imagine* that the video is aimed at engaging non gay people like myself, not gays like yourself, although not exclusively ie I'll let you watch the video if you like
> We have to beware of a tendency to assume that Spain is a tolerant, welcoming paradise where everyone is liberal-thinking and broad-minded. It isn't.
> I totally agree with you, (but in the past I believe you have posted about how tolerant Spain is and that halo image comes out). I think some people are tolerant. A lot of people don't voice an opinion which is different to saying they are tolerant and I think this may be where there is a difference with other countries. Others of course are completely intolerant. I think the homophobic/ friendly issue is very similar to the racist issue. Many Spaniards will say they are definitely not racist, but then they don't live in Lavapiés in Madrid or Melilla in the south... And this links to your next paragraph
> ...


***


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Assuming it isn't a fake....what, precisely, is the point of it?
> Stuff like that isn't going to change people's attitudes.


Sometimes M, I think you have to look at things from our side of the fence, not yours, and vice versa of course.

I think you're being deliberately dim but I will go over it for you. The "point" is that a child who is faced with a new concept of human relationship is not phased and doesn't try to exclude this unknown from his life. He chews it over, quickly digests it and moves on to include the new phenononem in his life, not exclude it, by inviting them to play ping pong with him.
Of course that's the way I see it. If you want to see it as a bit of Americano sweet tooth crap that's up to you!
PS I think the kid is aying the same as this that you quoted 


> Some people are gay. Get over it'


. 
and I suppose if you quoted you agree with it, and therefore why don't you understand the "point" of the video!?????????

PPS Are you having a bad day? Because I am!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well I STILL find it heart warming and reassuring- set up or not, in that if it was for real it's heartening to see people react that way, and if it's faked it's a lesson in how we SHOULD react.

Simple reasoning I accept but sometimes things should be straightforward- especially when highlighting right and wrong


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## stefig (Jul 14, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> That, imo, is a misguided but acceptable view and doesn't per se imply hatred, more likely pity. Neither do people who hold such views necessarily oppose anti-discrimination laws.
> People are complicated. Why should everyone be like Call Me Dave and hug not a hoodie but a gay? I have no right to automatic acceptance and respect but I do have a right to equality under the law. Big difference.
> You can legislate against discrimination but you can't legislate for equality of 'esteem'. People's thoughts are their own, thankfully. I know many LGBT people who are themselves very intolerant.
> The best ever advice I've seen is the Stonewall slogan 'Some people are gay. Get over it'.
> It really is -or should be -no big deal.


I don't think it's acceptable at all. People don't choose to be gay any more than they choose to be black. That way of thinking is discrimination, pure and simple, and it doesn't belong in this century.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The point of the original video, fake or real, was quite clear. 



> The aim of the campaign is to remind people that they have the right to file a police complaint against anyone who threatens, insults or physically assaults someone because of their sexual orientation. According to the group, 38 percent of the LGBT community in Spain has been a victim of some kind of assault but only 10 percent report such incidents to police.


The FELGTB group also want the anti-homophobia legislation passed in Catalunya last year to become national.

I honestly can't see why anyone should object to that. It would, I imagine, be particularly welcome to LGBT people whose families subscribe to the idea, still quite widespread amongst Catholic as well as Islamic believers, that homosexuality is an abomination.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Lots of gay haters are in the closet themselves...
> 
> Simple!


That has, I believe, been scientifically demonstrated. I'll see if I can find the study.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Bah am well dissapointed now if this was a fake.
> 
> Thought it was very heartening, but turns out its tosh.
> 
> Grrrrr. I hate all people!!!!


Just as most people don't believe everything they see on youtube, we shouldn't believe everything we read on the forum


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

How dare you sir!!!

Everything on Spain ex pat forum IS true!!!

Though still found yesterday's " bar in a supermarket " story a tough one to believe!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

stefig said:


> I don't think it's acceptable at all. People don't choose to be gay any more than they choose to be black. That way of thinking is discrimination, pure and simple, and it doesn't belong in this century.


OK so it's unacceptable. What are you going to do about it, though....
The point is you can change people's behaviour but not their 'way of thinking'.
It's what people do that matters.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ***


Replying to your points: intolerant people won't be persuaded by nice video clips. The most hopeful way forward is by education from an early age, in schools, as part of an integrated sex and relationship programme which challenges the domination of one particular way of thinking about relationships. 
But changing attitudes is a long and difficult process so more important by far are laws which prohibit discrimination and harassment. If people like that video clip, all well and good but I don't see that kind of thing as particularly effective.
I really don't care about what people think about whether being gay is disgusting, sinful, immoral and so on. I'm not into that kind of prejudice. People have a right to views about sex based on religion. I disagree with them but it's not illegal to have these views and hopefully never will be. But no-one has the right to act out these views in a way that harms others.
I happen to be very much against abortion. That's my personal view and I don't want some intolerant feminist telling me I'm 'wrong' reactionary and such crap because I would go out on the streets to defend other women's right to choose.
PW, you don't need 'persuading' You are not an intolerant person. You are like the majority of people. When I said that Spaniards are tolerant I did not mean that they were more tolerant than all peoples of the world. And the word 'tolerant' does not denote approval. It merely means that you have an opinion about a practice or viewpoint but do not wish to prohibit the expression of that practice or viewpoint.
As for the actual vide clip....ArcoIris used a very similar clip for its schools workshops. It made little impression on the students that saw it. More interesting for the students was meeting openly gay people, talking about rights and responsibilities and things common to all relationships. The very fact that there is discussion as to whether the clip is genuine or not shows that its message has been diluted in argument over its veracity.
What bothers me is that in repressing expression of discrimination we are imposing some kind of thought control. As I said, I've met many intolerant people in anti-discrimination forums. You don't combat prejudice by telling people they are 'wrong' or their views may be 'unacceptable'. Dialogue and mutual understanding of respective standpoints is crucial.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> OK so it's unacceptable. What are you going to do about it, though....
> The point is you can change people's behaviour but not their 'way of thinking'.
> It's what people do that matters.


On reflection, I need to qualify that..
You can indeed change people's thinking on some topics but rarely if ever can you change an *irrationa*l prejudice or hatred. Thinking that same sex relations is sinful is no way irrational if you are a practising Catholic, Jew or Muslim.
We have in western societies changed the way we think about the role and status of women, to give one important example. 
But more important in society as it affects people are the laws that promote equal pay and prohibit discrimination in the workplace.
Ditto with racism.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> Amazing. Very heart warming.


It warmed your heart...but you are not a homophobe It merely confirms and strengthens your 'good' prejudice.
Ask yourself what effect it would have had on a neo-Nazi....
Changing attitudes takes more than what some have described as a 'sugary sweet' video. It takes time and patience and changes in law.

Here's a true heart warming story..
I went to our local secondary school as a helper in our training workshop. We gave the presentation, gave out hand outs, the usual stuff, then the 'leader' introduced us individually and we chatted to the students, age fifteen, about ourselves. I talked about my life in politics and education, about my partner I've lived with for thirty-five years..I.. asked if any of the students would like to ask me anything. A hand went up...
'I've seen you walking with your partner in the village. What breed is that big dog you've got?' said a boy. I explained he was a Ridgeback and discussion on his feeding habits, nature and dogs in genera ensued.
Our team discussed whether in fact we might be a tad guilty of patronising these young people by assuming they needed the kind of approach we were offering...
I feel that some well-meaning attempts to 'educate' the public can stray into the realms of patronising. 
Telling people they can report homophobic crime s a different matter and needs different forums. A campaign similar to the anti-gender violence one might be a good idea.
I think the workshop may have been superfluous for many students.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I still think ALL efforts to highlight that discrimination of any type is unacceptable- are worthwhile


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> I still think ALL efforts to highlight that discrimination of any type is unacceptable- are worthwhile


Some can be counter-productive or have zero effect, though. 
But you have imo focused on the real point: it is not the 'thinking' (or lack of) that is 'unacceptable' but the practice of it as expressed through discrimination that we should never accept and which is in most civilised countries illegal.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Some can be counter-productive or have zero effect, though.
> But you have imo focused on the real point: it is not the 'thinking' (or lack of) that is 'unacceptable' but the practice of it as expressed through discrimination that we should never accept and which is in most civilised countries illegal.


The worlds not perfect for anyone gay straight or Australian but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying to get the message across. Discrimination ain't on


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm not so sure M. Advertising is a long slow process of drip feeding the message and changing attitudes can take decades. Racism and sexism along with child abuse and drink driving have always been on the 'bad' list but continuous messages of how we 'should' think and behave sink in, if very slowly for some people. 

A while ago I was thinking about how attitudes to drink driving have changed. When I was in my teens I knew it was wrong but there wasn't enough pressure from my friends/peers to stop. Decades later after a non stop stream of TV adverts and media campaigns and blood splattered trees (to the tune of In the Summertime) and there are people taking your keys off you the moment you order a beer. It's a positive change but it wasn't brought about by changes in the law but by changing social attitudes led by marketing campaigns. Hitler once said “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed". The same applies to any product, Coke is quite possibly one of the nastiest liquids on the planet but it doesn't stop the hoards from guzzling it thanks to the constant marketing campaigns (good for cleaning drains apparently). 

So yes, one video isn't going to change the world but stack it up with thousands of others over a decade or two and you will change peoples thinking. That's how religion works and there's no sign of their mantra, no matter how insane, being challenged by alternative (IE rational) thought.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Desiato said:


> I'm not so sure M. Advertising is a long slow process of drip feeding the message and changing attitudes can take decades. Racism and sexism along with child abuse and drink driving have always been on the 'bad' list but continuous messages of how we 'should' think and behave sink in, if very slowly for some people.
> 
> A while ago I was thinking about how attitudes to drink driving have changed. When I was in my teens I knew it was wrong but there wasn't enough pressure from my friends/peers to stop. Decades later after a non stop stream of TV adverts and media campaigns and blood splattered trees (to the tune of In the Summertime) and there are people taking your keys off you the moment you order a beer. It's a positive change but it wasn't brought about by changes in the law but by changing social attitudes led by marketing campaigns. Hitler once said “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed". The same applies to any product, Coke is quite possibly one of the nastiest liquids on the planet but it doesn't stop the hoards from guzzling it thanks to the constant marketing campaigns (good for cleaning drains apparently).
> 
> So yes, one video isn't going to change the world but stack it up with thousands of others over a decade or two and you will change peoples thinking. That's how religion works and there's no sign of their mantra, no matter how insane, being challenged by alternative (IE rational) thought.


I'm not saying 'advertising' the message that discrimination is unacceptable is pointless, far from it. It's the form it takes that interests me more. Two things stand out about the video clip: one, that it's veracity is being challenged which kind of obscures the message and two, that the posters who think it's great need no persuasion...they are the already persuaded. It's like a lot of propaganda...more like preaching to the converted than converting.
Sadly, I think many people change their habits not because they think something is wrong or unacceptable but because they fear punishment. Far too many people drink and drive when they shouldn't....tbh, I do occasionally. If I were stopped, breathalysed and fined because I had two glasses of wine instead of one I would never drink and drive again.
Where I have a problem is this issue of changing people's 'thinking'. No way is any amount of cute video clips going to convince a devout Jew, Muslim or some adherents of Christianity that homosexual relations are wrong. I don't mind that. What I do mind is discrimination which affects me in my daily life - at work, in the commercial sphere, harassment in the street and so on.
I don't think the majority of people have ever been actively homophobic, certainly not for many decades. I would surmise that indifference would be more accurate a description of public attitudes. That's why it was easy for Home Secretary Roy Jenkins to change the law in the 1960s. At that time there were no openly campaigning LGBT groups, no tv programmes with gay characters, no 'advertising' of any sort. The law simply caught up with a public who were largely tolerant and who in any case had gay friends and relations. That which was 'silent' and private became open and public as more and more gay people gained confidence because they had legal rights and recognition.
Yes, it took time but it wasn't a case of starting from scratch, as it were.
I've been active in trades union and other LGBT groups for decades and watched what I see as a kind of 'unfolding'. I've helped write and compile legislation and 'propaganda' and along with others thought about what is effective and what isn't. 
Telling people about their rights is of the utmost importance. Trying to change 'thinking' is of lesser importance.
Think what you like about me and the way I live...Chuck a brick at me, bar me from a job with no reason other than my sexuality or deny me and my partner a double room in a hotel and I'll be gunning for you...armed with the law and with highly aggressive intent


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

I agree with you that it is extremely difficult to change religious views but I am not in your camp of standing aside and letting them preach their hate out of 'religious respect'. I have a bit of a problem 'respecting' religion because I'm a little sick of being disrespected by it at every turn. You can't go to a funeral these days without the man in the middle giving a ten minute diatribe towards the unbelievers. You seem pretty set on not caring what some people think and I think that's a shame because it tends to be ignorant people who are easily persuaded to 'hate' and with a bit of effort, you can persuade them to see the error of their ways....sometimes, or over years of drip feeding advertising. 

I'm a big Queen fan and (again) in my teens I would be found blaring out their tunes in my bedroom. My father was not a fan and when I questioned him on it, it became clear he was put off by his 'prancing about antics' which I instantly knew what he meant. Maybe me and my sisters should have respected his opinion/thoughts about homosexuality but instead we chose to sing Bohemian Rhapsody all the way through (including the head-banging guitar solo) whilst waiting for the Christmas dinner to be served; while he sat there with a bemused look on his face clearly unsure of our ever so slightly rebellious rendition. Did we convert him? Of course not but it gave us a chance to tell him that we didn't give a damn about Freddie's 'prancing about antics' and it felt good to be able to demonstrate that.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Replying to your points: intolerant people won't be persuaded by nice video clips. The most hopeful way forward is by education from an early age, in schools, as part of an integrated sex and relationship programme which challenges the domination of one particular way of thinking about relationships.
> But changing attitudes is a long and difficult process so more important by far are laws which prohibit discrimination and harassment. If people like that video clip, all well and good but I don't see that kind of thing as particularly effective.
> I really don't care about what people think about whether being gay is disgusting, sinful, immoral and so on. I'm not into that kind of prejudice. People have a right to views about sex based on religion. I disagree with them but it's not illegal to have these views and hopefully never will be. But no-one has the right to act out these views in a way that harms others.
> I happen to be very much against abortion. That's my personal view and I don't want some intolerant feminist telling me I'm 'wrong' reactionary and such crap because I would go out on the streets to defend other women's right to choose.
> ...


Hmm, here's the thing. I never said anything about the videos persuading anybody. Videos alone will IMO not do anything.
Neither, as I believe you yourself say, will laws on their own
And "educating" is essential, but is excessively slow to bring about real change on its own.
Today more than any other time messages have to be spread through different mediums. Without wishing to insult or antagonise I think dismissing such videos is shortsighted, possibly (you're going to like this one ...) naive and possibly dangerous.

In my own case I have often, yes, often in recent years, seen a little video like this, been sent a link from a friend, or even read a post on a good little forum I know  that has helped me give shape to a half baked opinion that I've had; an opinion that perhaps I didn't even realise was there. Sounds weird, but you know, when something leaps out at you and you find that it catches your thoughts exactly.

I think each act/ article/ law/ class/ poster/ xxxx adds its own worth to a whole and has therefore to be valued.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Desiato said:


> I agree with you that it is extremely difficult to change religious views but I am not in your camp of standing aside and letting them preach their hate out of 'religious respect'. I have a bit of a problem 'respecting' religion because I'm a little sick of being disrespected by it at every turn. You can't go to a funeral these days without the man in the middle giving a ten minute diatribe towards the unbelievers. You seem pretty set on not caring what some people think and I think that's a shame because it tends to be ignorant people who are easily persuaded to 'hate' and with a bit of effort, you can persuade them to see the errors of there ways....sometimes, or over years of drip feeding advertising.
> 
> I'm a big Queen fan and (again) in my teens I would be found blaring out their tunes in my bedroom. My father was not a fan and when I questioned him on it, it became clear he was put off by his 'prancing about antics' which I instantly knew what he meant. Maybe me and my sisters should have respected his opinion/thoughts about homosexuality but instead we chose to sing Bohemian Rhapsody all the way through (including the head-banging guitar solo) whilst waiting for the Christmas dinner to be served; all the while he sat there with a bemused look on his face clearly unsure of our ever so slightly rebellious rendition. Did we convert him? Of course not but it gave us a chance to tell him that we didn't give a damn about Freddie's 'prancing about antics' and it felt good to be able to demonstrate that.


I didn't say I let those remarks or views pass unchallenged, though, did I.. I do challenge them or at least discuss them but it's a bit like my attitude to Tories...I don't see them as 'scum' or in terms of the abuse posters on CIF in The Guardian often use, merely as people with different opinions to my own.
I don't want everyone to have the same views. It would be boring and besides I would have no-one to argue with....
Back in the UK I went through a period of several years when I was very active in my local (Catholic )church. This was at a time when I was also active in CND and shared platforms with Mgr Bruce Kent -remember him? Anyone in our parish who wasn't totally dim knew my sexual orientation, our lovely Priest certainly did. His view was that the Almighty had more important things to concern him/herself with than what me and my partner got up to. Maybe my fellow parishioners held that yucky 'Love the sinner, hate the sin' view but I didn't give a monkey's. Most of them like me cared more about peace, truth and justice than people's private lives. No-one 'disrespected ' me. I don't recall ever discussing the subject but if we had e would have agreed to differ.
Nowadays I tend to view religion as a necessary myth. Of course I'll speak out against religious practices that promote harm to others...I have done on many a public occasion and will continue to do so. But religious people, like others who hold different views to mine can still respect me and be my friends.
We learned last night by chance that a good friend is a fan of the corrida. We were horrified and a bit upset. Won't stop us being friends but I foresee lively debate.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hmm, here's the thing. I never said anything about the videos persuading anybody. Videos alone will IMO not do anything.
> Neither, as I believe you yourself say, will laws on their own
> And "educating" is essential, but is excessively slow to bring about real change on its own.
> Today more than any other time messages have to be spread through different mediums. Without wishing to insult or antagonise I think dismissing such videos is shortsighted, possibly (you're going to like this one ...) naive and possibly dangerous.
> ...



Videos like that can't be 'dangerous'. They won't do harm but neither will they do much good.
I think it's worth considering the total absence of controversy when in the 1960s homosexual acts between consenting males where decriminalised. There were, as I said in an earlier post, no gay rights movements, no Pride marches...certainly no youtube videos.
What happened was that the mass of the public was and remained indifferent to an issue they rarely gave much thought to.
I agree with your last sentence if you'd change the last word to 'evaluated'.  There is a school of thought that believes some publicity can have the reverse effect to that intended.
I doubt very much that you ever had prejudices that needed eradicating. The test of the effectiveness of any propaganda is how it affects the prejudiced not people like your good self.
That Stonewall slogan is imo effective because it doesn't say 'Start loving gays'. It just says 'Gays exist. Get over it'.
No big deal, in other words. That imo is how the issue should be approached in education. Same-sex attraction is a fact like Madrid is the capital of Spain. It's happening in UK schools from Year 1. Gay relationships presented as a given. Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing 'special'.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Videos like that can't be 'dangerous'. They won't do harm but neither will they do much good.
> I think it's worth considering the total absence of controversy when in the 1960s homosexual acts between consenting males where decriminalised. There were, as I said in an earlier post, no gay rights movements, no Pride marches...certainly no youtube videos.
> What happened was that the mass of the public was and remained indifferent to an issue they rarely gave much thought to.
> I agree with your last sentence if you'd change the last word to 'evaluated'.  There is a school of thought that believes some publicity can have the reverse effect to that intended.
> ...


Goodness communicating on a forum can be difficult at times!
I didn't say the _*video*_ was dangerous.


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm gay and I couldn't give a toss whether the clip is fake or not as it bears zero relation to individual experiences which depend very much on the situation and the people involved.
> We have to beware of a tendency to assume that Spain is a tolerant, welcoming paradise where everyone is liberal-thinking and broad-minded. It isn't. I'm Vice-President of a LGBT rights group which lobbies local town halls to adopt anti-homophobia action plans and delivers workshops to schools and police. I've found people's attitudes to be no different from any other country I've lived in or spent time in. Since the elections in May with more PSOE Mayors now in power in Malaga province, the attitudes of Aytos have been more positive and welcoming...but then our Ayto is PP controlled and Concejales participated in IDAHO - International Day against Homophobia -and made supportive speeches. The PP Concejala who marries people whether gay or straight and I have differences over gay marriage -she supports it ad I don't!
> I think that in most countries there is a vociferous homophobic minority and a 'cuddle a gay' vociferous 'see how liberal I am ' minority. But most people aren't interested in what people do with their genitalia as they are preoccupied with mundane concerns like work, paying the bills, family and so on...like most gays, really. I classify this as tolerant disinterest, an attitude I welcome. I'm like everyone else, not some special species.
> So there is homophobia in Spain, just as in the UK, Germany, France...much more so though in Poland where homophobia is rife and vicious. I was asked to help steward a Gay Pride march in a Polish city and although not a timid person I chickened out as I was aware of the violence that usually accompany these events and I'm old and can't run fast...There is also gender violence but as Stefig pointed out so there is in the UK, maybe worse.
> ...


good on you Mary, my younger sister is gay (butch gay!) but of course I still love her to bits just the same as when we used to tease and fight each other as kids , the arguments that I have had in pubs at work etc about 'what does it matter' you would not believe, I say to people what if you found out that the surgeon that was just about to perform heart surgery on your loved one was gay and because of that he had just taken a pasting on the car park by a bunch of p####s like you and as a result cannot now operate, work out the percentage of your full life that you are engaged in a sex act with another person, it's absolutely miniscule (in my case at the moment its at molecular level) ,,,,,,,still fake sorry I had to get it in (again).


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

Lolito said:


> Well, fake or not fake, the video is made to prove a point. So relax Mr Hibiscus, and try to be happier, a fake video of homophobic content is not worth a heart attack. Relaxxxxxx....


full smile on face,,, heart rate 62 bpm,,, on my second g+t,,, well relaxed my amigo well chilled, its just another fake minority fake vid.


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

Lolito said:


> Well, fake or not fake, the video is made to prove a point. So relax Mr Hibiscus, and try to be happier, a fake video of homophobic content is not worth a heart attack. Relaxxxxxx....


and just what makes you think I am a man?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It warmed your heart...but you are not a homophobe It merely confirms and strengthens your 'good' prejudice.
> Ask yourself what effect it would have had on a neo-Nazi....


... A neo-Nazi would probably try to convince people it was fake.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> Videos like that can't be 'dangerous'. They won't do harm but neither will they do much good.


OK, One last ditch attempt. I don't think you should view any of these type of videos as a turning point or as a milestone in whatever the message is they are trying to portray. See them as a piece of the puzzle, tiny steps in the right direction, or as I said, a very slow drip drip feed towards a more enlightened and tolerant society. On their own they are not going to turn a Jew hating Nazi into mother Teresa (not that she was a saint but that's another story) but one by one, they add another piece to the puzzle and years, decades later you look back and see how much views and opinions have changed. The black and white minstrels, Miss World, fox hunting and bull fighting. These are all things going through the transition of being a "tradition" to something viewed with utter disgust...but it takes time, a lot of time but views and opinions do change, it's just not visible to the human eye so you won't see it in one video but you will see a change in opinions after 1000 videos and articles in newspapers spread over many years. People are easily manipulated and sometimes it's not always for bad reasons. As PW says, a little bit here, a little bit there, it all helps to shape and reshape our opinions.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> No-one 'disrespected ' me. I don't recall ever discussing the subject but if we had e would have agreed to differ.
> Nowadays I tend to view religion as a necessary myth. Of course I'll speak out against religious practices that promote harm to others...I have done on many a public occasion and will continue to do so. But religious people, like others who hold different views to mine can still respect me and be my friends.


Just to be clear I wasn't talking about disrespecting me personally but how all religions disrespect Atheists in general, which has always struck me as odd. You would think they would have a bigger beef with someone who believed in a different God as they could compare notes as to who's God was better and have a right old go at each other but no, they seem to have a mutual respect for other 'believers' and instead turn all their hatred on to those who really don't give a ****... odd isn't it?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Desiato said:


> Just to be clear I wasn't talking about disrespecting me personally but how all religions disrespect Atheists in general, which has always struck me as odd. You would think they would have a bigger beef with someone who believed in a different God as they could compare notes as to who's God was better and have a right old go at each other but no, they seem to have a mutual respect for other 'believers' and instead turn all their hatred on to those who really don't give a ****... odd isn't it?


I disagree strongly withyour choice of words. Too much generalising..it's simply not true that ALL religions 'disrespect' atheists. Same with use of the word 'hatred'.
Disagreeing with another person's views isn't synonymous with disrespecting them or hating them.
If I were a religious person, I might feel that those kinds of views were disrespectful of my lawful beliefs. Let's not forget that the anti-'discrimination laws protect religious people from bigotry and hatred too.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Goodness communicating on a forum can be difficult at times!
> I didn't say the _*video*_ was dangerous.


In the global scale of things, such videos have very little importance and rarely if ever hit their intended audience, homophobes. If they appeal those without prejudice all well and good.
One successful prosecution and harsh punishment for homophobic crimes will have more effect than a thousand cheery videos or posters.
It's almost impossible to change the minds of real racists, homophobes etc. All you can do is use the law to control them and shut them up. That is my main point.
My second contention is that the public in general are and always have been far more tolerant or indifferent about homosexuality than we are sometimes led to believe and don't need reeducating or persuading.
I think it's more important to raise awareness of the existence of anti-discrimination legislation than feel- good videos. That and sex and relationship education in schools which puts homosexuality in perspective as one of manyof the diverse facets of human existence.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> ... A neo-Nazi would probably try to convince people it was fake.


No. A neo- Nazi would sáy these are disgusting degenerate people who should be removed from a healthy society. Questions of veracity wouldn't figure in their thinking.
The focus would be on the decadent queers not the public reaction to them.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

You're really on your soapbox over this one Mrypg!!

Bottom line was the video ( regardless of its veracity) can be taken as a well intentioned attempt to highlight discrimination. Take it as simple as that. Certainly that's the way many people will consider it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> You're really on your soapbox over this one Mrypg!!
> 
> Bottom line was the video ( regardless of its veracity) can be taken as a well intentioned attempt to highlight discrimination. Take it as simple as that. Certainly that's the way many people will consider it


Well, actively working to make life easier for LGBT people over most of my life as well as being one has given me a vested interest, kind of
One thing we can agree on is that the video clip, fake or not, had a great appeal to those who have no prejudice. 
What I'm also concerned about is that in combatting one set of prejudices we don't accidentally and unintentionally condone another. Like you, I loathe the kind of actively vicious religious intolerance that actively foments hatred, violence and discrimination against LGBT people. There are laws against this. But equally there are laws protecting the expression of religious opinion and practice which does not discriminate which are just as important, imo. 
One of the reasons I retired from Committee work and seminars was age and after the move to Spain distance, travelling to London, Birmingham, Berlin wherever. But I also began to detect a note of intolerance within some of my colleagues who weren't content with achieving the possible, i.e. laws to protect minorities of all kinds, but who wanted something no law or propaganda campaign can achieve: equality of esteem. It wasn't enough for them to have laws that prohibit religious people banning gay people from applying for jobs as church caretakers....they wanted to ban priests, vicars, imams, rabbis from saying that according to the teachings of their religion, same sex relations are 'sinful'.
Now if I as a gay person - and other reasonable gays I know - don't see it as a problem, merely shake their heads and shrug their shoulders, why should a heterosexual person get worked up on our behalf?
It's sad if we clamp down on one set of intolerances and ignore others. The sexual abuse of children by groups of Muslim men was ignored because of fears of racism. There is a well-documented case of abuse in Islington care homes involving gay men which was covered up because of fears of homophobia. 
There's another aspect which is perhaps peripheral ....I'm admittedly a bit of an old prude but imo there is far too much publicity given to people's sexual behaviour these days. The Guardian sometimes seems like a postscript to 'The Joy of Sex' with its pieces on sexual techniques. The Daily Mail gives explicit details of sexual behaviour it purports to condemn. TV programmes go into explicit detail about people's anatomy, sexual practices and so on...not to mention the obligatory shagging scene that appears in every drama, even soap operas. Next we'll have 'Shagging on Ice', I suppose.
I'm wondering whether the fact that homophobic incidents have increased along with the increasing prominence of all things gay...
Please don't think that I'm making a plea for going back in the closet, far from it.
It's just that imo some things should be kept private, a deux, trois or whatever takes your fancy, not sprawled across the pages of The Sun or Guardian.

And I'm not signing off as 'Disgusted of Eastbourne'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

hibiscus123 said:


> ''All you can do is use the law to control them and shut them up. That is my main point.''
> WOW how fascist and anti freedom of speech can you get WOW, and from somebody as erudite as you, and a member of a minority group to boot.


So you are condoning hate speech? You would allow Goebbels to call for the extermination of Jews? Or the Ku Klux Klan to publicly organise lynch mobs?
There is no such thing as 'free speech', by the way. Ask a fat-cat libel or slander lawyer.

Simple distinction: 1) the Bible/Quran whatever says homosexuality is a sin.
2) Homosexuals are perverts who seduce children and should be hunted down and exterminated.

Spot the difference?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> In the global scale of things, such videos have very little importance and rarely if ever hit their intended audience, homophobes. If they appeal those without prejudice all well and good.
> One successful prosecution and harsh punishment for homophobic crimes will have more effect than a thousand cheery videos or posters.
> It's almost impossible to change the minds of real racists, homophobes etc. All you can do is use the law to control them and shut them up. That is my main point.
> My second contention is that the public in general are and always have been far more tolerant or indifferent about homosexuality than we are sometimes led to believe and don't need reeducating or persuading.
> I think it's more important to raise awareness of the existence of anti-discrimination legislation than feel- good videos. That and sex and relationship education in schools which puts homosexuality in perspective as one of manyof the diverse facets of human existence.


Well you know more about it than I do obviously, but...
Yes, videos like these or indeed any other are unlikely to change a real homophobe's opinion.
But, as Alcalaina said, the intended audience for the video she posted originally was not homophobes. According to "El País" this was the aim


> The aim of the campaign is to remind people that they have the right to file a police complaint against anyone who threatens, insults or physically assaults someone because of their sexual orientation.


 A less self confident non straight person than yourself might have found this interesting; might give him/ her a little push in the right direction.
Education towards enlightenment, change, acceptance and reality can never be wrong, but it needs support and difussion. Nowadays this means using the infamous social media. In one of your posts you talk about the Pride march in the 60 and how they never had any videos, posters etc. Very interesting, but that was then and this is now. Any campaign nowadays can "go viral", nationwide and worldwide in a flash with all that's good and bad about that and it's important to recognise that.

You say that


> the public in general are and always have been far more tolerant or indifferent about homosexuality than we are sometimes led to believe and don't need reeducating or persuading


and this is where we may have most of a difference of opinion, but you do know more about it than me. I'm not so sure that people in Spain are so generously accepting as they might appear. I posted somewhere about racism. I think there's not a lot of racism in some parts of Spain because there are no great immigrant areas in Castilla La Mancha or Lugo for example. Transport people to certain areas of Barcelona for example or Birmingham and they might start to have a problem. I'm willing to believe that Spain won't have the racial problems that other nations have, but it doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people who _have still to voice an opinion_ because the problem isn't theirs yet.
*Ditto for homophobia.*
Apart from all that, I can't see that campaigns like this do any harm, I can't see that they are to be criticised. They are watched by thousands, most of whom are already supporters of their cause of course, but there will be people who are on the fringes who receive this through their email. People who are yet to analyse their feelings or voice an opinion and it will perhaps give them another slant on the idea.
I think dismissing this type of contribution is dangerous, (note, not the video itself) Campaigns or ideas that people wish to diffuse should not be focussed only on the extremes - the hug a gay or the gay haters. There are plenty, _plenty_ of people in between that you'd want to carry along with you and forgetting that can be costly. Imo, of course


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> So you are condoning hate speech? You would allow Goebbels to call for the extermination of Jews? Or the Ku Klux Klan to publicly organise lynch mobs?
> There is no such thing as 'free speech', by the way. Ask a fat-cat libel or slander lawyer.
> 
> Simple distinction: 1) the Bible/Quran whatever says homosexuality is a sin.
> ...



We had first hand experience often in Belfast of the results and consequences of people exercising " free speech" to negate the freedoms of others

I distinctly remember one elected representative tell a meeting of Belfast City Council that " the waste incinerator complex was being underused whilst there were still Catholics and their priests alive in the city"

Ironically this politician encountered others with equally extreme but polar opposite opinions shortly after his speech and had five rounds put into the back of his head.

The idea of free speech is indeed complex


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## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> So you are condoning hate speech? You would allow Goebbels to call for the extermination of Jews? Or the Ku Klux Klan to publicly organise lynch mobs?
> There is no such thing as 'free speech', by the way. Ask a fat-cat libel or slander lawyer.
> 
> Simple distinction: 1) the Bible/Quran whatever says homosexuality is a sin.
> ...


ahh the 30's the good old days when men were men and sheep were fearful. At least you could walk the streets at night safely.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

hibiscus123 said:


> ahh the 30's the good old days when men were men and sheep were fearful. At least you could walk the streets at night safely.


Unless you had the misfortune to be a German Jew in Germany who faced emigration or deportation and shooting or gassing...

Thanks for that non- refutation of my reasonable point.
I presume you don't object to supporters of Sharia law in the UK calling for gays to be decapitated or stoned, then....Your sister might, though...


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> I disagree strongly withyour choice of words. Too much generalising..it's simply not true that ALL religions 'disrespect' atheists. Same with use of the word 'hatred'.
> Disagreeing with another person's views isn't synonymous with disrespecting them or hating them.
> If I were a religious person, I might feel that those kinds of views were disrespectful of my lawful beliefs. Let's not forget that the anti-'discrimination laws protect religious people from bigotry and hatred too.


You’re right; I should have said ‘some’ religions because I'm sure there are some out there who are completely neutral on Atheists and have publicly said so. The reason I chose ALL is because in my personal experience, I haven’t come across a faith with that stance but in truth, I haven’t looked that hard. 

As for my use of the word ‘hate’, I was basing that on the evidence I've witnessed on the front lines where the two sides have fought a continuous battle for many years….the Youtube comments section. As daft as it sounds, this is where the most vocal of believers can be found and they tend to hang out on Atheist videos declaring that we will all “burn in hell!” The intolerance of believers towards non believers is staggering and after years of reading their 'views' I'm afraid hate is the word that best describes their feelings towards Atheists. I'm sure you've had many a calm and rational conversation with some very intellectual religious people and in truth, I have too but they are a minority I'm afraid. Religious intolerance towards non believers seems to be the main order of the day and it has been for centuries but that's all in my opinion of course. 

I was going to say something about your previous posts on religion and how you have a problem with the ones who have stated they want you dead but I've just seen you have posted something that answers what I was going to say. Freedom of speech is a minefield where it seems supporters of some religions can say quite hateful things about The West and nothing is done about it. Just look at the banners held up in some of these demonstrations and imagine how hard the law would come down if the roles were reversed? It seems that freedom of speech is reserved for extremist religious groups but not for those on the receiving end of it.

I see you are sticking to your view that one video will not make any notable difference, which we agree on. Where we differ though is that I see it as a positive step in the right direction that may, over time, help to reshape opinions. You seem reluctant to accept this point of view so we’ll just have to agree to disagree even though we have seen public opinions shape the law rather than the law shape public opinion, like fox hunting for example.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well you know more about it than I do obviously, but...
> Yes, videos like these or indeed any other are unlikely to change a real homophobe's opinion.
> But, as Alcalaina said, the intended audience for the video she posted originally was not homophobes. According to "El País" this was the aim
> A less self confident non straight person than yourself might have found this interesting; might give him/ her a little push in the right direction.
> ...


My opinion is no more valid than yours, really, as it reflects only my personal experience. Were I an unemployed lesbian single mother living on a rough London or Birmingham -or Madrid - Council estate my experiences might be totally different. That's something I've always pointed out when giving talks.
I've been lucky in many respects in my life. You might think this strange but I have NEVER had a conversation with my mum or my son about my sexuality. My mum was a very tolerant easy going person who may have thought some things 'weren't very nice' but wouldn't wish to harm or offend anyone. My son obviously knew I had same sex partners from the time I left his dad (on friendly terms) but the situation was just accepted, no discussion. After all, life proceeded as usual chez Mary with Victorian rules and sitting showered and dressed at the table for breakfast en famille and such like...and I didn't question him about his sex life, or my mum's for that matter. It was the relationship that was important and it was in nearly every respect like everyone else's...work, shopping, friends..
Same at work and meeting new friends. No problems with students or colleagues, Sandra always invited as partner along with husbands or wives.
So my life has largely been lived in a climate of total acceptance.
I don't dismiss videos like the one on youtube. I just don't see them as that important. In my experience of campaigning resources have been scarce and we've had to consider how to use them most effectively.
We've focused our work on two areas: making people aware of the law by disseminating information to all our members and officers/shop stewards, running training courses , having information for members of the public at Pride and other events...and on education where we've created a whole raft of materials with lesson plans, videos even(!) to be used in the National Curriculum PSHE component.
I accept that there is racism and homophobia, there always will be that irreducible hard core of bigots. But my experience is that of a public which is tolerant even if privately there is dislike or disgust even- toleration doesn't have to mean approval - and which doesn't really give a toss about people's sexuality, treating them instead as individuals with characters which may appeal...or not.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Desiato said:


> .
> 
> I see you are sticking to your view that one video will not make any notable difference, which we agree on. Where we differ though is that I see it as a positive step in the right direction that may, over time, help to reshape opinions. You seem reluctant to accept this point of view so we’ll just have to agree to disagree even though we have seen public opinions shape the law rather than the law shape public opinion, like fox hunting for example.


Good post but would say that just like the decriminalising of homosexual relations in the 1960s the banning hunting law caught up with the public view. so we agree on that too.
I don't think laws alter opinions but they do control behaviour to a great extent. 
I don't see the video as a positive or negative step, I see it as another effort at shaping public opinion which imo is likely to change very few opinions if any.

Btw, isn't Cameron considering repealing that law?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Incidentally, has anyone actually looked at some of the clauses in the 2010 UK Equality Act, a piece of legislation far greater in reach than current Spanish anti-discrimination law?
There are some aspects I'm not 100% comfortable with, such as the perception of the recipient of an allegedly discriminatory remark or action being held as more important than the intention of the person making the remark or action.
If I had complained under the Act and received compensation about remarks made at work in a spirit of what is now known as 'banter' I would be wealthy.
'Blind old bat' 'Silly cow' 'and similar were common parlance in our staff room...aimed at me as I was always misplacing keys, phone, glasses....
Some years ago we had a new Head who was anxious that we should all use 'proper professional non-sexist language' and I was given the task of drawing up a document to this end. Apart from agreeing that we shouldn't use the f or c word which we didn't anyway we got nowhere. We were a group of people who worked together and socialised together, dining and drinking out together and even going on weekends away to France, Prague, Barcelona...


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I love Milly Tant!!!!

Don't mention Sid the Sexist though!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

hibiscus123 said:


> ''I presume you don't object to supporters of Sharia law in the UK calling for gays to be decapitated or stoned, then....Your sister might, though''...
> not too bothered about the gays being stoned, just leave the lesbians alone,,,,, as a side note why in real life do lesbians look nothing like the ones in my collection of dvd's that I have on the subject.PS are you Milly Tant out of Viz? (joke).


No, only lesbians are stoned under Sharia law. I believe gays are decapitated.
I think you've led a very sheltered life where lesbians are concerned. Your experience is obviously limited. When I think of all the men who have drooled over Samantha Fox only to realise she bats for the other side, so to speak....There are so many like her. We don't all wear DMs, dungarees and have Number One crewcuts, you know...

And although I'm not MillieTant from Viz I'm (apparently) Militante from PSOE. 
Are you Sid the Sexist out of Viz, btw? Just asking....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> I love Milly Tant!!!!
> 
> Don't mention Sid the Sexist though!!!


Why not? I just did, as he's alive, well and posting


Don't dare mention Fat Slags though.....an insult to working-class heterosexual women, they are....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

It really is no one elses business who and what consenting adults do in "the bedroom" Its personal and quite frankly, I'm sure none of us would want others to discuss our sexual preferences - gay or not!!!! I personally dont care or need to know. It doesnt effect our day to day lives or abilities.

Jo xxx


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> Good post but would say that just like the decriminalising of homosexual relations in the 1960s the banning hunting law caught up with the public view. so we agree on that too.
> I don't think laws alter opinions but they do control behaviour to a great extent.
> I don't see the video as a positive or negative step, I see it as another effort at shaping public opinion which imo is likely to change very few opinions if any.
> 
> Btw, isn't Cameron considering repealing that law?


Although this particular video did have a specific message about how to use the law against those who discriminate against you, I tend to view these videos as Mars bar adverts. We know the product, we know what it tastes like, we know the ingredients (just about) so all it is doing is reminding us it is still there. If you polled a 100 people and asked them to name a chocolate bar, how many would say Mars? Quite a few I suspect. How many would say Topic? or Picnic? Or Curly Wurly? Very few and that's down to marketing and advertising. 

These videos keep the subject in the limelight and whilst us wrinklies don't need our views affirming, our children and grandchildren may not have their views set in stone or have even thought about it at all...until now. So as a few posters on here have said, it can't hurt and may actually do some good. 

I mentioned previously about the drink driving videos and their hard hitting message of "Enjoy a pint with your friends at Sunday lunch and you too will be wrapped around a tree". On it's own it was a piece of theatre and didn't achieve a thing but when see them day after day, year after year, you get the message and many years later you look back and see that public opinion about drink driving was changed because of the constant message that we were bombarded with. If you are on the front line with a budget, a deadline and targets to reach, a drip drip campaign over 20/30 years is not going to get the nod. You will target laws and action plans with credible results so I can see where our paths have parted. 

I've heard that Cameron was thinking about repealing the law. I'd be very surprised if he did but if he does, I'm sure in his memoirs he'll point to that moment and say that's when things started to go bad (or worse?) for him.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> It really is no one elses business who and what consenting adults do in "the bedroom" Its personal and quite frankly, I'm sure none of us would want others to discuss our sexual preferences - gay or not!!!! I personally dont care or need to know. It doesnt effect our day to day lives or abilities.
> 
> Jo xxx


I used to read a column by a journalist called Harry Whewell, years ago when I was young and The Guardian was still printed in Manchester. He once wrote a piece about the 'modern' need to know everything about anybody in which he described how, as a child in Manchester, he lived on a street where in a corner house there dwelled a couple of respectable middle-aged women. Everybody liked and respected them. He noted that they were most probably lesbians and everyone thought that they were but in those days politeness, reticence, call it what you will, prevented people from openly mentioning it.
He reflected that it wouldn't be the case in these 'enlightened' times when their 'diversity' would be recognised and 'celebrated' and liberal-minded progressive neighbours would be falling over themselves to invite them to dinner.
In those days they were allowed to get on with their lives in peace.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

I'm not sure why earlier in the thread people were surprised that in a well-off central zone of Madrid, there were Spanish people who could speak English? 
Madrid is the capital and so many head offices of national and international companies are based there. Many journalists, traders, lawyers, architects, bankers etc who need English are based there. Also there are many entrepreneurs and company owners who have either studied abroad or (in many cases) worked abroad and set up branches overseas.
There are over 100 academies of English in Madrid, and many bi-lingual schools have been set up. 
Given all this, the only surprise is there aren't more fluent English speakers around.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I dunno webmacros- dunno if the Spanish are all that educated. 

History shows us they were never as smart as us, even right back to when they were living under Mussolini


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> I'm not sure why earlier in the thread people were surprised that in a well-off central zone of Madrid, there were Spanish people who could speak English?
> Madrid is the capital and so many head offices of national and international companies are based there. Many journalists, traders, lawyers, architects, bankers etc who need English are based there. Also there are many entrepreneurs and company owners who have either studied abroad or (in many cases) worked abroad and set up branches overseas.
> There are over 100 academies of English in Madrid, and many bi-lingual schools have been set up.
> Given all this, the only surprise is there aren't more fluent English speakers around.


Absolutely.
I'd say the majority still aren't English speakers and I would never ever go anywhere in Madrid and expect there to be an English speaker (the doctor's, the tax office, the town hall or even in a bar or a restaurant) However, in business many people speak low level English, (enough to greet a visitor, tell someone where the nearest Metro is etc) to extremely high level negotiators, sales people and whatever you need in business. This year I have a "false beginner" They are a rare breed. When I came in 1986 almost everybody was a false beginner, no exaggeration. Most of my clients now can converse fluently if not 100% accurately, and operate successfully, with a tremendous effort on their part, in a multinational business world. 
Maybe some of my teaching has paid off?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

What's a false beginner?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*as a side note why in real life do lesbians look nothing like the ones in my collection of dvd's that I have on the subject*.


Before I reluctantly leave this thread and get on with the ironing can I just thank you on behalf of me and my partner Sandra for buying one of our 'specialist' videos ? It's thanks to our many satisfied customers buying these recordings of our 'playtimes' that we have made enough money to take early retirement to Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> What's a false beginner?


Someone who knows a little, is not a complete beginner, but who doesn't really know enough to be categorised at a higher level. They probably know the "Getting to know you" type questions but would get lost beyond what's your address or what's your favourite colour.


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## stefig (Jul 14, 2015)

webmarcos said:


> I'm not sure why earlier in the thread people were surprised that in a well-off central zone of Madrid, there were Spanish people who could speak English?
> Madrid is the capital and so many head offices of national and international companies are based there. Many journalists, traders, lawyers, architects, bankers etc who need English are based there. Also there are many entrepreneurs and company owners who have either studied abroad or (in many cases) worked abroad and set up branches overseas.
> There are over 100 academies of English in Madrid, and many bi-lingual schools have been set up.
> Given all this, the only surprise is there aren't more fluent English speakers around.


Because the last time I lived in Madrid, there wasn't a fluent English speaker to be found anywhere. I think the level of English in Spain has hugely improved since the start of the recession, but your average Joe on the street still wouldn't be able to hold a conversation. I know a lot of kids who go to bilingual/British schools and STILL can't speak great English.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Ironing done...OH standing outside Mercadona shaking her hucha for World Animal Day...
Thinking about campaigning, publicity, advertising etc...sometimes these things can have totally opposite effects, something that wasn't intended.
An example in the political sphere...neither OH or I are Corbyn supporters - we support many of his policies but think he is unelectable - but she rejoined the Labour Party after reading the torrent of abuse heaped on him by The Mail The Express and Co.
Paid up my lapsed membership after getting sick of the abuse aimed at Miliband in the run up to May's elections.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

stefig said:


> Because the last time I lived in Madrid, there wasn't a fluent English speaker to be found anywhere. I think the level of English in Spain has hugely improved since the start of the recession, but your average Joe on the street still wouldn't be able to hold a conversation. I know a lot of kids who go to bilingual/British schools and STILL can't speak great English.


Agreed, as my post says, I think


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Pesky do you only teach Spanish people English- can you teach other way round?

That prob sounds daft but you know what I mean


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Pesky do you only teach Spanish people English- can you teach other way round?
> 
> That prob sounds daft but you know what I mean


I only teach English, and don't think I'd be able to do the other way round. Xabiachica does though.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I only teach English, and don't think I'd be able to do the other way round. Xabiachica does though.


 I'm very often asked to teach English .... but I've managed to avoid it for a few years now  

I much more enjoy teaching Spanish


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

I hate to get back on subject since you all have moved on, but the video doesn't seem to have been made with the intention of warming homophobes' cold hearts. The stated message at the end is that nearly 40% of LGBTQI individuals in Spain have faced discrimination, but only 10% report it to the police. The video was beautiful and I feel that the reactions were genuine, but the takeaway message was supposed to be that it IS possible to "denunciar" such treatment and that it WILL get results (see: "they will close this hotel!")


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> I hate to get back on subject since you all have moved on, but the video doesn't seem to have been made with the intention of warming homophobes' cold hearts. The stated message at the end is that nearly 40% of LGBTQI individuals in Spain have faced discrimination, but only 10% report it to the police. The video was beautiful and I feel that the reactions were genuine, but the takeaway message was supposed to be that it IS possible to "denunciar" such treatment and that it WILL get results (see: "they will close this hotel!")


I think you will find that 'results' rarely materialise. Not according to the (Spanish) LGBT people I work with in ArcoIris. Not according to the guy in Casares who contacted me after his sister received verbal homophobic abuse in a local café. The incident was reported to the police who merely shrugged it off as unimportant.
Now I'm not denying that the video clip may do some good in informing LGBT people of such rights as they have. I'm saying that information is a priority. But laws are as good as the means of enforcing them and in Spain these don't exist in a speedy, accessible form.
The UK is a country where at least in this area of human rights we stand out in Europe as we have laws (Equality Act 2010) and means of enforcing them.
A lot of spade work has to be done here and organisations like ArcoIris and many others are hard at it, working with local authorities to change laws and introduce anti-discrimination programmes as well as education programmes with students, police and health workers.
Anyone, gay or straight, is welcome to help in any way they feel able.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Good post elenetxu.

Many of us are too old crusty and cynical at times ( myself definitely included) to take the proper message as intended and have maybe analysed it to death. 

As I posted earlier I too found it heartening and like to think that it will go towards making a difference.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you will find that 'results' rarely materialise. Not according to the (Spanish) LGBT people I work with in ArcoIris. Not according to the guy in Casares who contacted me after his sister received verbal homophobic abuse in a local café. The incident was reported to the police who merely shrugged it off as unimportant.
> Now I'm not denying that the video clip may do some good in informing LGBT people of such rights as they have. I'm saying that information is a priority. But laws are as good as the means of enforcing them and in Spain these don't exist in a speedy, accessible form.
> The UK is a country where at least in this area of human rights we stand out in Europe as we have laws (Equality Act 2010) and means of enforcing them.
> A lot of spade work has to be done here and organisations like ArcoIris and many others are hard at it, working with local authorities to change laws and* introduce anti-discrimination programmes as well as education programmes with students, police and health workers.*
> Anyone, gay or straight, is welcome to help in any way they feel able.


While Spain is lightyears ahead of the US in this field, I do agree that more education is totally necessary. I do my best in the classroom and have made a point to do so ever since my mentor laid into a kid for calling someone else Falete a couple of years back.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> , but the takeaway message was supposed to be that it IS possible to "denunciar" such treatment and that it WILL get results (see: "they will close this hotel!")


That's what makes me think this clip was staged, for a good purpose...because no way would a hotel be 'closed' for such behaviour. It wouldn't happen in the UK, a fine would be imposed and damages paid to the aggrieved party, and I would like to see an instance of it happening here.
Tbh, imo such a punishment would be disproportionate to the crime. The hotel's employees don't deserve to be punished by losing their jobs.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> While Spain is lightyears ahead of the US in this field, I do agree that more education is totally necessary. I do my best in the classroom and have made a point to do so ever since my mentor laid into a kid for calling someone else Falete a couple of years back.


Are there compulsory sex and relationship classes in Spanish schools? Apart from the workshops groups like ArcoIris do, there is nothing in our local schools. 
In the UK, students are taught about sex from an early age and that families come in all shapes and sizes, not just mum, dad, two kids. I taught eleven year olds sex education and that included topics such as contraception - students were taught how to use condoms (I had a cucumber , medium size, as 'demonstrator').
Before the course of lessons commenced, parents were informed in writing of the content and were invited to see the materials used (including the cucumber) and ask me anything that concerned them.
I was amused to see that the material put out by the Head Teacher assured parents that I would be 'handling the topic in the most tasteful and careful manner'.
Which I did.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Thinking of those lessons reminded me that I did very detailed, intricate diagrams of the male and female reproductive organs on the white boards in my room. It took quite a while to do this so I wanted to keep them until the course was completed, for future reference.
The Head told me to erase them as the female cleaning staff found them 'upsetting'.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

If a Hotel owner says those things to me, i hope they close their business and he loses his job, and i would be extremely happy about it all.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lolito said:


> If a Hotel owner says those things to me, i hope they close their business and he loses his job, and i would be extremely happy about it all.


And you want his staff, some of whom may be gay themselves, to be punished too?
Think about it...yes, rabbitcat, analyse it even.

If that happened to me in the UK I would report the incident under the Provision of Goods and Services Act and , via my Union solicitor, ask for a hearing before a County Court Judge. This would take place within weeks, not months. If, the evidence having been presented, the owner were deemed to be guilty, he would be fined, ordered to pay me a sum in damages, and would have to pay my costs, his costs and general court costs. 
That is surely the appropriate punishment. 
Plus of course the publicity arising from the media reporting of the court case would alert gays and principled non-gays to the bad attitudes of this hotel owner. 
But the outcome of the case would surely teach him to keep his opinions to himself in future.
This, as I have come to see it, is the right way to proceed. Pass laws with accessible means of enforcing them and publicise them. Punish those who break them and publicise their punishments.
Have your nice videos too, but I know what I think is more effective.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

I never understood homophobia till I was the only straight person on a board of directors for an organization teaching HIV+'individuals to counsel others in similar situations upon discovering diagnosis. This was an interesting time in my life and in my career. Growing up when in the US was in the homophobic/*******/ignorant South. At the point of my career during the height of the AIDS epidemic I learned much about myself as well as how to deal with my own homophobia. I am very grateful for that opportunity. Unfortunately, many of my friends and colleagues died of AIDS in the early 90's but their spirits continue within me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That's what makes me think this clip was staged, for a good purpose...because no way would a hotel be 'closed' for such behaviour. It wouldn't happen in the UK, a fine would be imposed and damages paid to the aggrieved party, and I would like to see an instance of it happening here.
> Tbh, imo such a punishment would be disproportionate to the crime. The hotel's employees don't deserve to be punished by losing their jobs.


The hotel is fictitious and nobody will lose their jobs. The homophobic text wasn't real. Spain is not Kentucky, or wherever that Kim Davis woman came from, the one that was in the news recently. No hotel owner in Spain would put such things in writing; they know it is illegal. If they didn't want two men or women asking for a double room they would simply say they didn't have any vacancies.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The hotel is fictitious and nobody will lose their jobs. The homophobic text wasn't real. Spain is not Kentucky, or wherever that Kim Davis woman came from, the one that was in the news recently. No hotel owner in Spain would put such things in writing; they know it is illegal. If they didn't want two men or women asking for a double room they would simply say they didn't have any vacancies.


Even if it was real it wouldn't be closed down, but the owner might well be fined. The people who said that were not the force of law and order.
What touched me (and perhaps I'm just extremely gullible) was the indignation of the people, their _vergüenza ajena_.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Even if it was real it wouldn't be closed down, but _the owner might well be fined_. The people who said that were not the force of law and order.
> What touched me (and perhaps I'm just extremely gullible) was the indignation of the people, their _vergüenza ajena_.


Do you know what law would apply there?
I've searched but have yet to find or be told of one instance where someone, business owner or employer, has been punished for a homophobic action.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Do you know what law would apply there?
> I've searched but have yet to find or be told of one instance where someone, business owner or employer, has been punished for a homophobic action.


Not sure, but maybe something comes up here.
Delitos de discriminaci?n en el C?digo Penal (Delitos cometidos con ocasi?n del ejercicio de los derechos fundamentales y de las libertades p?blicas garantizadas por la Constituci?n) - Fundaci?n ACCI?N PRO DERECHOS HUMANOS (www.fundacionpdh.org)
Somebody in your group probably knows about this, don't they?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The hotel is fictitious and nobody will lose their jobs. The homophobic text wasn't real. Spain is not Kentucky, or wherever that Kim Davis woman came from, the one that was in the news recently. No hotel owner in Spain would put such things in writing; they know it is illegal. If they didn't want two men or women asking for a double room they would simply say they didn't have any vacancies.


So the passers-by were responding to a situation which is unlikely to arise....which is why I said the clip is 'unreal'.
For me, the focus is more on the reactions of the passers-by than the existence of laws to prevent homophobia and shows, if 100% genuine, how intolerant and friendly some people are....so we can feel good about tolerant people...
Which of course most people are. 
It would be great if there were to be a government funded campaign publicising such legislation as exists, something like the UEFA 'Respect' campaign. That of course is focused almost 100% on racism in sport, homophobia being one area all too common in sport which is rarely given the prominence it deserves.
But the legislation is inadequate. There is no organisation in Spain like the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission, or the Equality Advisory and Support Service which provides legal assistance so people who are not union members or can't afford a lawyer can take cases of discrimination to a County Court or Employment Tribunal.
The video shows one thing, which is that the passers-by obviously thought the law had more power than it in fact does. That is concerning.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Not sure, but maybe something comes up here.
> Delitos de discriminaci?n en el C?digo Penal (Delitos cometidos con ocasi?n del ejercicio de los derechos fundamentales y de las libertades p?blicas garantizadas por la Constituci?n) - Fundaci?n ACCI?N PRO DERECHOS HUMANOS (www.fundacionpdh.org)
> Somebody in your group probably knows about this, don't they?


Yes, of course. But the main 'problem' is that this is viewed as more of a 'mission statement' than a tool kit for actual enforcement.
It's saying that discrimination is a crime but when you think that the UK Equality Act alone covers almost fifty pages defining in detail what constitutes harassment, what different forms illegal discrimination can take, when discrimination may be justified and legal and more importantly how an aggrieved person can take remedial action, it's inadequate.
What complicates matters in Spain is the power and ideology of the church. In the UK recently, a couple who operated a 'Christian' B&B were fined and ordered to compensate a gay couple who were refused accommodation. The Christian owners appealed against the judgment but lost and were bankrupted. The ethos there is that one has a right not to be discriminated against but not to discriminate. Now, contrast that with a case in Malaga where a RC school is refusing to recognise a transgender student, obliging her to wear male uniform and use male toilets. 
The law in the UK relating to justified legal discrimination refers only to employment of persons 'representing the ethos of the religion'. So a mosque, church or synagogue could in law refuse to appoint an openly gay imam, priest or rabbi....although it's hard to imagine a gay Muslim etc. bothering to apply for such a post...But it's illegal to refuse employment to a gay cook, geography teacher or caretaker in a faith school.
Similarly there are exceptions -Genuine Occupational Requirements - for persons working in certain areas such as counselling gay teenagers but there is some uncertainty as to how a test case would stand up in court.
The proof that UK law works in this field are the number of successful cases taken under the legislation, where plaintiffs have been awarded damages in the £tens of thousands.

Another important part of UK law is that all public bodies and bodies receiving public funds have to positively promote diversity and have policies against homophobia, racism, sexism etc. This isn't just words....there must be policies in place and voluntary audits of staff to help inform what needs to be done to ensure that all are treated equally.
Part of this 'positive duty' requires the recording of homophobic, racist etc. incidents in schools, hospitals etc. with details of action taken. 
Most local authorities, trades unions and some private companies will employ Equality Officers as part of their HR set-up. Diversity training is a recognised part of working life these days in both public and private sectors. My Union has a staff department devoted to equality issues which services our LGBT and other diversity Committees and our annual conferences and supplies training material ,runs training and other courses and seminars (part of my former job), helps take legal action under the Equality Law and liaises with our Parliamentary Officer on equality issues.
In fact, diversity/equality has become an industry in itself...


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