# 9th July 2012 family migration rules - how did it affect you ?



## lope85 (Jun 10, 2012)

Just out of curiosity want to know how the changes to family migration rules that were changed this year affected you .

My partner and I were ready to apply for a fiance visa but then the new income threshold was increased and I was unable to meet this. I am expecting his baby so we have decided to live together in his home country. He is planning on applying for a marriage visitor visa soon for the UK and then, him, me and baby will go and live in his home country.

Just been looking at the case study file by JCWI.Have not come across anything recent on this subject.


----------



## BailyBanksBiddle (Feb 8, 2012)

lope85 said:


> Just out of curiosity want to know how the changes to family migration rules that were changed this year affected you .
> 
> My partner and I were ready to apply for a fiance visa but then the new income threshold was increased and I was unable to meet this. I am expecting his baby so we have decided to live together in his home country. He is planning on applying for a marriage visitor visa soon for the UK and then, him, me and baby will go and live in his home country.
> 
> Just been looking at the case study file by JCWI.Have not come across anything recent on this subject.


I was here since July 2010 so I just made it in. I hope you and your partner can be happy where you will be just now, but if you both wish to return to the UK I hope that will be a possibility soon.


----------



## rose.spectre (Jun 12, 2012)

Well, it prompted my fiance and I to apply sooner than we expected. I'm still waiting for the NY consulate to make a decision on our application, so I guess it hasn't affected us very much, yet.


----------



## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

The only change it caused for myself and Ed was that we ended up filing about 3 weeks sooner than we did (July 4th as opposed to 23) so as to get in before the cut off and still let me leave for the UK at the beginning of October (as it turned out, the visa was started 24 July)... whilst we wouldn't have had any problems qualifying under the July 9 changes, I personally DID NOT want to end up waiting for 5 years for something that I could get in as little as 3 if I put some effort in applying.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

WestCoastCanadianGirl said:


> The only change it caused for myself and Ed was that we ended up filing about 3 weeks sooner than we did (July 4th as opposed to 23) so as to get in before the cut off and still let me leave for the UK at the beginning of October (as it turned out, the visa was started 24 July)... whilst we wouldn't have had any problems qualifying under the July 9 changes, I personally DID NOT want to end up waiting for 5 years for something that I could get in as little as 3 if I put some effort in applying.


in as little as *TWO *years!


----------



## MacUK (Jul 3, 2012)

Boy did it affect us! We were on the brink of applying when suddenly the rules changed....my husband already left for the UK, got everything in order, and then the shattering news....so me and the baby stayed in my country, and my husband is still in the UK. Hopefully we will meet the financial requirement and apply in the winter. This is the most difficult thing we've had to go through in our marriage, being apart and losing precious time as a family. But we accepted the reality and my husband comes every month or so to visit, but each time it becomes more and more difficult to let him go.


----------



## goose10110 (Jun 23, 2012)

MacUK, your story is very sad, and I really do feel for you. 

For myself, we had to apply pre-July 9 or never (he would not have met the financial requirements). As a result, we got married a lot earlier than we would have liked (civil) and without our families very soon after it was announced that the rules will change. It also meant that we have to plan my settlement in the UK a lot sooner than I had expected. I'm very happy to get the visa; I just wished that my present and future were not heavily directed by the change in immigration rules.


----------



## mehemlynn (Nov 16, 2011)

lope85 said:


> Just out of curiosity want to know how the changes to family migration rules that were changed this year affected you .
> 
> My partner and I were ready to apply for a fiance visa but then the new income threshold was increased and I was unable to meet this. I am expecting his baby so we have decided to live together in his home country. He is planning on applying for a marriage visitor visa soon for the UK and then, him, me and baby will go and live in his home country.
> 
> Just been looking at the case study file by JCWI.Have not come across anything recent on this subject.



We were also now or never, but we were going to apply this year anyhow. For us the rules change was a catalyst to do what we were planning to do, but weren't in a hurry for.

Now we just have to finish the move. 

M


----------



## benthomas010 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thankfully no effect for me at all so far. I meet all the requirements for the new route - what has delayed my application though is this bloody english language requirement they bought in last year. 

No problem for my partner passing the exam - but it being a 3 month wait from application for test, through to getting the certificate has really dragged things out for us. We were expecting it to be easy to book, and then an almost instant result. We expected her to be applying for her visa end up June, but still now we are waiting for the certificate. 

One way the rule change may effect us though is the slow down in turnaround time for visa's. I'm hoping they will have the bulk of the july applications out of the way by the end of this month.


----------



## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

Joppa said:


> in as little as *TWO *years!


 
Ah... I am hoping to get citizenship after 3 years.


----------



## jesshall281 (Sep 19, 2012)

Well for me and my husband it has ground everything to a halt. I am a UK citizen, he is South Africa, we have been in SA for 2 years, ready to pack up and go, then found out that we could never meet the financial requirements (How can someone magically get a job for 18,600 pounds a year while being half way across the world?). Our lawyer here in SA said there is a huge court case on October 16th to get rid of this ridiculous requirement. So fingers crossed it gets abolished and there is an easier way, then we can come home and start a family!


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

jesshall281 said:


> Well for me and my husband it has ground everything to a halt. I am a UK citizen, he is South Africa, we have been in SA for 2 years, ready to pack up and go, then found out that we could never meet the financial requirements (How can someone magically get a job for 18,600 pounds a year while being half way across the world?). Our lawyer here in SA said there is a huge court case on October 16th to get rid of this ridiculous requirement. So fingers crossed it gets abolished and there is an easier way, then we can come home and start a family!


It will take more than a court case to overturn the new rules. What you need is political power to change the immigration rules through parliament, which must wait next general election (due in 2015) and political landscape that will ensue. While the Labour politicians have expressed opposition to the new rules, there is no way of knowing what they will do if they get into power, and the Labour leadership has apologised for their soft-touch immigration policy while in power.


----------



## jesshall281 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joppa said:


> It will take more than a court case to overturn the new rules. What you need is political power to change the immigration rules through parliament, which must wait next general election (due in 2015) and political landscape that will ensue. While the Labour politicians have expressed opposition to the new rules, there is no way of knowing what they will do if they get into power, and the Labour leadership has apologised for their soft-touch immigration policy while in power.


Hi Joppa, thanks for your reply! I do however remember there were no political changes in power to change the age limit of the spousal visa from 21 down to 18, that happened because of quiet a few court cases and oppositions. I will remain positive though


----------



## 2farapart (Aug 18, 2011)

The rules seem to be least fair when both UK and non-UK partner have been living overseas as in Jesshall281's case, and the only realistic way to be able to move back to the UK is for the UK national to return to the UK alone, find and keep a decent-paying job for at least 6 months, and then bring in their spouse. With unemployment being high, that could present a lot of difficulties with no guarantees except a long period of living apart.

I think any chance of these rules being overturned is pretty much zero. There is a rising tide against immigration, and any pro-immigration change will likely be a vote-loser. The problem is that 'immigration' _per se _is often blamed for the UK's general housing and employment shortage, and people don't actually think in terms of UK expats wanting to return home.


----------



## jesshall281 (Sep 19, 2012)

2farapart said:


> I think any chance of these rules being overturned is pretty much zero. There is a rising tide against immigration, and any pro-immigration change will likely be a vote-loser. The problem is that 'immigration' _per se _is often blamed for the UK's general housing and employment shortage, and people don't actually think in terms of UK expats wanting to return home.


This is very true! I completely understand how the UK no longer want such 'easy' access for immigrants, I myself had that mindframe 2 years ago. However I do feel there should be an easier way for ex-pats, because this is separating families (I can hear a lot of people crying out 'Human rights!' here) But there is nothing I, or anyone on this forum can do but hope for the best!


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

And you can't give a preferential treatment to ex-pats, as that may be seen as racially motivated to favour the whites (as ex-pats overwhelmingly are) against blacks and Asians.


----------



## jesshall281 (Sep 19, 2012)

Joppa said:


> And you can't give a preferential treatment to ex-pats, as that may be seen as racially motivated to favour the whites (as ex-pats overwhelmingly are) against blacks and Asians.


Of course it would be! oh well, if they can at least bring the visa back in place where you are married for 5 years, then the partner can get indefinite leave to remain, then its only 3 years to go!


----------



## gandm (Sep 18, 2012)

jesshall281 said:


> Well for me and my husband it has ground everything to a halt. I am a UK citizen, he is South Africa, we have been in SA for 2 years, ready to pack up and go, then found out that we could never meet the financial requirements (How can someone magically get a job for 18,600 pounds a year while being half way across the world?). Our lawyer here in SA said there is a huge court case on October 16th to get rid of this ridiculous requirement. So fingers crossed it gets abolished and there is an easier way, then we can come home and start a family!


Sounds like you're in the same boat we found ourselves in. Were I in the UK I'd be earning at least 3x what they're demanding but where I am I earn less and have a significantly better lifestyle than I would on UKP50k. I so totally feel for everyone in here that's hopped online to check what they need to do to get back home and just ground to a screeching halt and shouted 'seriously?' (or way worse) across the room.

Our solution is rather than spending a year or more moving to another major metropolitan area here where the comparable wage would actually meet the requirement then followed with the hassle of parting so I can move back to the UK and get a job, find a house and then wait who knows how long to get her a visa, we're heading for Ireland where we can both work the day after landing without dealing with any of this nonsense. With no ridiculous visa fees to pay! And while that provides a back door route into the UK we'll maybe just settle down in Ireland and continue to deposit our taxes in their coffers. Who knows.

Do you have more information on said court case? Is it European court? I'd like to put it on my radar just because.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

gandm said:


> Do you have more information on said court case? Is it European court? I'd like to put it on my radar just because.


Every case has to go through local (UK) courts first.


----------



## Rhettski (Sep 14, 2012)

I might be in the minority and also may draw the ire of many on this forum but I see the new family migration rules as a good thing.

For me, the financial requirement is no problem at all, as both my parner (UK citizen) and I have been in the uk for the past 22 months working in the same jobs, each earning above the £18.6k.

I totally think it is reasonable that if you are intending to bring someone into the country as a partner, that you at least work to earn enough to support at least yourself.

I was hoping that the new focus on the financial requirements would mean there was less focus on the burden of proof for 2-years co-habitation (unmarried partner). Originally it seemed this would be the case, as the website mentioned 'proof of an ongoing and durable relationship akin to marriage' (or something like that).

But alas the visa application still requires this 2 years of proof, which may be my undoing, as I have 23 months of excellent evidence (from our time in the UK), but only 1 bill and a letter from my partners parents of our few months living together at their house before we moved to the UK.


Also - thanks Joppa on the tip on getting a premium appointment, logged in at midnight, UKBA system crashed 5-6 times but managed to get an appointment in exactly 42 days time by 12.03am.


----------



## mehemlynn (Nov 16, 2011)

Rhettski said:


> I might be in the minority and also may draw the ire of many on this forum but I see the new family migration rules as a good thing.
> 
> For me, the financial requirement is no problem at all, as both my parner (UK citizen) and I have been in the uk for the past 22 months working in the same jobs, each earning above the £18.6k.
> 
> ...



If you were caught out by the financial part, or were still living overseas and found that you had be separate for a while to be able to go home, that might have changed your mind. Each of us seems to have one part of the rules we need to work through somehow.

In our situation, we own our home in Wales, but my husband has been with me in the US since our baby (now 2 1/2) was born. So one of us would have to be without our daughter for more than 6 months (at least) for us to meet the requirement, if we hadn't gotten the visa under "old rules". I don't mind having to support ourselves (I don't think that as a new immigrant I should get most benefits), but having to have USD 100,000 in the bank because I'm our primary income earner, doesn't seem great.

If we hadn't gotten in under the old rules, we would have done what we had to do to go home under the new rules, but it would have been very painful. The income levels aren't the same across the country and while I could get a £40,000+ job in London, the same job would pay a lot less in Cardiff.

Honestly, this board has made me more in favor of the new rules, or at least much harsher enforcement of the old rules. In 99% of the cases on here, I hope that the person will find a way to make their move work, and I wish the new rules weren't going to affect them (MacUK being one of the people I can think of right away). In the few other cases, people seem to want to get away with gaming the system; these are the people that make the visa costs high and the rules hard for the people who have a legitimate reason to move to the UK. 

Unfortunately, it isn't the immigrants who follow the rules who get into the newspapers and it is the people in the newspapers who influence public opinion about immigration. 

M


----------



## drosera1 (Aug 22, 2012)

I think the new rules are ridiculous, as 2Farapart mentioned, primarily for people that have been living abroad, then want to return to the UK with a foreign Spouse, like myself and my wife. The financial requirement is too high. I'm happy for the people who flippantly say "I'm happy as i easily earn 18 thousand+ Pounds per annum" etc etc, good for you. My wife comes from a working class family, with full English heritage. They are not highly skilled, for instance her dad just retired after 42 years of work, he was earning 1600 Pounds per month. How the heck is my wife supposed to hop over to the UK and start earning the same or more? Please!!! 

These rules are to make the current administration look good. To really cut down on sponges, they should have extended the rules to the EU territories, immigrants from these areas are the REAL issue, yet the new rules don't touch them. I'm sorry, but i grow tired of the people who can "easily make" 1700+ Pounds per month. Basically, if you're not a: lawyer/doctor/manager/dentist/some other highly skilled worker, TOUGH LUCK, being together with your loved one is not for you in the UK. What an incorrect and pathetic set of rules.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm afraid the government's hands are tied with regard to EU migrants, unless the UK leaves EU altogether (Tories are promising a referendum after the next election) and not join EEA like Norway and Iceland (through it they participate in free movement of people, goods and labour). But then UK will become a pariah of Europe and its trade and inward investment will be badly damaged, so that's not going to happen.


----------



## BailyBanksBiddle (Feb 8, 2012)

Rhettski said:


> I might be in the minority and also may draw the ire of many on this forum but I see the new family migration rules as a good thing.
> 
> For me, the financial requirement is no problem at all, as both my parner (UK citizen) and I have been in the uk for the past 22 months working in the same jobs, each earning above the £18.6k.
> 
> ...


Haven't had such good luck--either no bookings or multiple crashes. Going to give it another go in a minute or two tonight.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Personally, I don't mind rules being "toughened up" to detect bogus marriages and such. However, my personal feeling is that the new rules have not been thought through very well and they have left many gaps. Like for example, the fact that if someone owns a house but does not have enough savings or high enough earnings, the "reasonable" thing would be to sell the house and live as a tenant somewhere. This makes no sense to me. I think looking at the difference between earnings and outgoings makes more sense than looking just at the earnings.

Also, new rules seem to favour people living in big cities, like London, where salaries are higher. This I also find somewhat lacking in common sense. Expenses in such places are also higher, rent especially.

The fact that parents are allowed to offer accommodation but no letters of financial support is also strange. Certainly, if financial support from parents is not "safe" enough, support in accommodation is not "safe and reliable" enough either?

As a British citizen living abroad, I would probably feel a bit "disowned" by my country if I had to jump through so many hoops in order to bring my partner to my country. I can't imagine that's a nice feeling.

It would be interesting to find out just how many family immigrants come from the non-EU countries. Actually, it would be interesting to find the full break down of how many immigrants come from which category, how many come from the EU and how many students actually stay in the UK after they graduated. Is there any statistics about this on the net? Without it, I don't think a good plan can be made regarding how to cut down on immigration. The government I think has said that it wants to cut down immigration to tens of thousands, but is this even possible if more than "tens of thousands" come from the EU? I think over 100 000 immigrants a year come just from the new EU countries. So the promise seems impossible to keep.

I understand however that Britain does have a problem with immigration, but I think of all the routes, the family route should be the one which shows most understanding, compassion and flexibility.


----------



## jesshall281 (Sep 19, 2012)

drosera1 said:


> I think the new rules are ridiculous, as 2Farapart mentioned, primarily for people that have been living abroad, then want to return to the UK with a foreign Spouse, like myself and my wife. The financial requirement is too high. I'm happy for the people who flippantly say "I'm happy as i easily earn 18 thousand+ Pounds per annum" etc etc, good for you. My wife comes from a working class family, with full English heritage. They are not highly skilled, for instance her dad just retired after 42 years of work, he was earning 1600 Pounds per month. How the heck is my wife supposed to hop over to the UK and start earning the same or more? Please!!!
> 
> These rules are to make the current administration look good. To really cut down on sponges, they should have extended the rules to the EU territories, immigrants from these areas are the REAL issue, yet the new rules don't touch them. I'm sorry, but i grow tired of the people who can "easily make" 1700+ Pounds per month. Basically, if you're not a: lawyer/doctor/manager/dentist/some other highly skilled worker, TOUGH LUCK, being together with your loved one is not for you in the UK. What an incorrect and pathetic set of rules.


Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. How can someone living in South Africa magically get a job for 18,600 a year without being able to have an interview because they live halfway across the world!? And why should people be forced to spend 6 months apart, just to be able to meet this requirement?
I can get a job right now for 15,000 a year, but that would require 25,000 in savings! just because im slightly below the threshold. Please bear in mind we are not all 40 years old with 20 years experience in a certain field with a degree. I'm 21 and I'm expected to get a job for that amount? My mother was a housewife, and my father earned 17,000 a year, they took care of 4 people with that ONE income. This threshold is soley for those living in London (where the jobs for that amount are more available than anywhere else in the country) and for those thats have degrees/years of experience.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

ashkevron said:


> It would be interesting to find out just how many family immigrants come from the non-EU countries. Actually, it would be interesting to find the full break down of how many immigrants come from which category, how many come from the EU and how many students actually stay in the UK after they graduated. Is there any statistics about this on the net? Without it, I don't think a good plan can be made regarding how to cut down on immigration. The government I think has said that it wants to cut down immigration to tens of thousands, but is this even possible if more than "tens of thousands" come from the EU? I think over 100 000 immigrants a year come just from the new EU countries. So the promise seems impossible to keep.


The figure of tens of thousands refers to non-EEA migration. There is no reliable way of measuring how many EEA migrants there are, as they can come just with their passport without having to get a leave/visa or even complete an immigartion card, and residence documents for them are optional.

If you look at the MAC's report on family migration, published last year, there are some statistics (from outside EEA) you are looking for:
UK Border Agency | MAC publishes report on the family migration route


----------



## gbu (Apr 7, 2011)

Joppa said:


> I'm afraid the government's hands are tied with regard to EU migrants, unless the UK leaves EU altogether (Tories are promising a referendum after the next election) and not join EEA like Norway and Iceland (through it they participate in free movement of people, goods and labour). But then UK will become a pariah of Europe and its trade and inward investment will be badly damaged, so that's not going to happen.


Agree, it won't happen. 

People also forget the high number of Brits that enjoy their lives in other eu countries. 

Can't have your cake and eat it.


----------



## MacUK (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks M for your support, it means a great deal in these difficult times, as well as Joppa's precious advice, and a few other quite well informed members here. 
Well i'll just put it like it is for me....sadly, or fortunately, i don't know which exactly...
I really don't care about getting British citizenship, whether it's 2 or 5 years, it really doesn't do it for me. I don't prefer a foreign country to my own. Frankly, I am so scared of going somewhere I don't know anyone, and it's way out of my comfort zone. I am seriously having second thoughts but I can't because my husband needs me, and I love him. I just want to be with my husband, that's all. I want my daughter, who is a British Citizen too, to live with her father, who she desperately needs right now. I'm not even sure what I would do in the UK, but i am willing to go through that just to be with my husband, who has virtually no chance of functioning in my country - he tried, it did not work for him, he was deeply unhappy. If it was my country that introduced these new rules ( i haven't got a clue how the immigration system works here), i would be PRO New rules. SO what i understand from all of this, is that by introducing the 6 month and 18.600£ thresholds, they just want us to give up. BUT...Love always wins...if you love somebody enough, there is always a way. This is just making us love each other and appreciate each other and our marriage more.


----------



## mehemlynn (Nov 16, 2011)

MacUK said:


> Thanks M for your support, it means a great deal in these difficult times, as well as Joppa's precious advice, and a few other quite well informed members here.
> Well i'll just put it like it is for me....sadly, or fortunately, i don't know which exactly...
> I really don't care about getting British citizenship, whether it's 2 or 5 years, it really doesn't do it for me. I don't prefer a foreign country to my own. Frankly, I am so scared of going somewhere I don't know anyone, and it's way out of my comfort zone. I am seriously having second thoughts but I can't because my husband needs me, and I love him. I just want to be with my husband, that's all. I want my daughter, who is a British Citizen too, to live with her father, who she desperately needs right now. I'm not even sure what I would do in the UK, but i am willing to go through that just to be with my husband, who has virtually no chance of functioning in my country - he tried, it did not work for him, he was deeply unhappy. If it was my country that introduced these new rules ( i haven't got a clue how the immigration system works here), i would be PRO New rules. SO what i understand from all of this, is that by introducing the 6 month and 18.600£ thresholds, they just want us to give up. BUT...Love always wins...if you love somebody enough, there is always a way. This is just making us love each other and appreciate each other and our marriage more.


We were just a few months ahead of you on paperwork (so we were under the old rules, but are going home for the same reason. My husband is incredibly and increasingly unhappy here; if going home to Wales, is what it takes to make him happy, I know I can make the adjustments (I've moved more times than him). But this isn't something I would choose to go through if not for my husband.


----------



## MacUK (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi M,
You are quite right, no one in their right mind would put themselves through this....well at least i wouldn't, if it wasn't for my husband. Well the good news is that i took the ELT, and now I am waiting for the results, i really hope that i will manage to get a B1. 
The funny thing is that now my favourite song is 'Time is on my side'  Well I have to cope with the situation somehow  
The really good news is that my husband is coming to see us this fall, and again in the winter for 2 weeks, yay!!! He won't miss our daughter's first birthday, after all.  All the best to you  !


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

urgh. we are really affected - it's awful . We plan to move to the UK from Thailand in 2014 - if we had known about these changes in time we would certainly have applied before 9th July (although we would not have been married by then, so I'm not sure which route we would have taken...) . There are some petitions around - i'll add a link when I have done 4 psts or more (i can't link now as this is my first post!)


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

I agree - there is no problem with a revision of the old rules but the new ones are riddled with holes. We ought to be ok if I can secure a job, close to my parents' place, as I am a teacher, but the timing of the end of contracts in Thailand and the availability of UK teaching posts doesn't match. I am also planning to sell my property so that I will have a better financial cushion to evidence, but it's all horrible. We had planned to move back together to my mum's so we could live rent free and I could be a full time mum for a while (I am currently pregnant with twins).


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

ashkevron said:


> Personally, I don't mind rules being "toughened up" to detect bogus marriages and such. However, my personal feeling is that the new rules have not been thought through very well and they have left many gaps. Like for example, the fact that if someone owns a house but does not have enough savings or high enough earnings, the "reasonable" thing would be to sell the house and live as a tenant somewhere. This makes no sense to me. I think looking at the difference between earnings and outgoings makes more sense than looking just at the earnings.
> 
> Also, new rules seem to favour people living in big cities, like London, where salaries are higher. This I also find somewhat lacking in common sense. Expenses in such places are also higher, rent especially.
> 
> ...


I think it is very silly that a parental gift of money can be used for the Visa but their (free) accommodation cannot. It's also silly that if you are returning to the UK and have a job offer but have not been working abroad to the 18600 minumun, you can't come in - what logic is there to that rule? It just seems an arbitrary way of excluding people. If you live abroad with a high-earning non-EU partner but you are a stay at home mum and the UK citizen, you can't come in - WHY!?


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Now we are considering moving to Europe instead - to be close(r) to my family. But my Thai partner has excellent English - not much help in Europe!


----------



## mehemlynn (Nov 16, 2011)

Roxx79 said:


> I think it is very silly that a parental gift of money can be used for the Visa but their (free) accommodation cannot. It's also silly that if you are returning to the UK and have a job offer but have not been working abroad to the 18600 minumun, you can't come in - what logic is there to that rule? It just seems an arbitrary way of excluding people. If you live abroad with a high-earning non-EU partner but you are a stay at home mum and the UK citizen, you can't come in - WHY!?


This is our situation, with my husband being at home with our daughter; luckily, we just got in under the old rules.

M


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

*Petition*



mehemlynn said:


> This is our situation, with my husband being at home with our daughter; luckily, we just got in under the old rules.
> 
> M


*sigh*
Lucky you! 
I want to post a link to this petition but the forum keep s saying I can't! 
Allow immigration of non EU spouses - e-petitions


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> Now we are considering moving to Europe instead - to be close(r) to my family. But my Thai partner has excellent English - not much help in Europe!


If you can secure a job in an EEA country or Switzerland that pays enough for you both to live on, you can later apply for EEA family permit (which has next to no financial requirement) to bring your wife to UK under European rules.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> I think it is very silly that a parental gift of money can be used for the Visa but their (free) accommodation cannot.


I don't know what you mean by that, but an offer of free accommodation, if suitable, can meet the accommodation requirement for the visa.



> It's also silly that if you are returning to the UK and have a job offer but have not been working abroad to the 18600 minimum, you can't come in - what logic is there to that rule? It just seems an arbitrary way of excluding people. If you live abroad with a high-earning non-EU partner but you are a stay at home mum and the UK citizen, you can't come in - WHY!?


It has been said the new rules hit UK sponsors who are women particularly hard, as they are less likely to be the main breadwinner. In that case, she just has to return to UK ahead of her husband/partner and work for 6 months before his visa can be applied for. This isn't always easy or desirable if she has young children or has been out of job market for a long time (stay-at-home mums). The reason for this rule is that those sponsors living and working or have worked abroad should not get a better deal than those who are living and working in UK, and it's true that same family considerations apply to women sponsors based in UK who still need to come up with the required earned income. And unless you are a high-income family, you are less likley to have the level of savings required to replace or go some way towards meeting the income threshold.

Yes, I agree that the rules aren't ideal and will affect couples and families according to individual circumstances. The government has said they will look at how the new rules are working in a year's time, so further fine tuning is possible but I doubt there will be fundamental changes. And income threshold is likely to rise each April with inflation (currently running at 2.5%, so £18,600 may rise to £19,065 in 2913).


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> I don't know what you mean by that, but an offer of free accommodation, if suitable, can meet the accommodation requirement for the visa.
> _*
> I know this but the jobs are in London, and my parents' home is not - so I don't know how to go about proving the accommodation requirement in conjunction with likely job offers in London. I have an uncle who lives alone in a 2 bed flat in London- we will be a family of two adults plus twins aged 18 months. Would an offer of accommodation where my partner and i are on a sofa-bed in the lounge be accepted (it is not technically overcrowding according to the numbers of people allowed, but I suspect that it would be viewed as too small)?*_
> 
> ...


*Well that's the cherry on the cake. At least if I CAN secure a job, it will be above the required income level. As teaching jobs are almost definitely to be found in London, I really don't know what to do about the accommodation thing - any suggestions?*


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> I don't know what you mean by that, but an offer of free accommodation, if suitable, can meet the accommodation requirement for the visa.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone know whether if you enter on the requirement of cash savings, they must be held for the entire 5 year qualification period, or whether they can be used once a couple's joint salaried income reaches 18600GBP? 

The Rules state that they must be cash and not bonds / ISA etc; they MUST be usable, so surely they do not have to remain in a low interest instant-access account and not be used once you have found a job and you meet the financial requirements through work? 

Any help out of this labyrinth hugely appreciated.


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> If you can secure a job in an EEA country or Switzerland that pays enough for you both to live on, you can later apply for EEA family permit (which has next to no financial requirement) to bring your wife to UK under European rules.


This is a ray of sunshine - I might be able to get a job in an international school (whose recruitment times would match with my current international school's). When you say we can apply for an EEA family permit later, how much later do you mean? 
Points to consider: 
We are both women with a UK civil partnership. I'm not sure that's recognised everywhere in Europe? 
Could my partner not also work in the European Union if she is registered as my partner?
International schools in the EU pay quite badly - I am concerned about what you told me about the minimum threshold going up - if it rises above 19000GBP then working in Europe do I run the risk of falling foul of it all over again?

Hang on - just reading the EEA family permit page... Looks as though that might be the way forwards. Again, would my spouse be entitled to work in Europe?


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Roxx79 said:


> This is a ray of sunshine - I might be able to get a job in an international school (whose recruitment times would match with my current international school's). When you say we can apply for an EEA family permit later, how much later do you mean?
> Points to consider:
> We are both women with a UK civil partnership. I'm not sure that's recognised everywhere in Europe?
> Could my partner not also work in the European Union if she is registered as my partner?
> ...


Sorry another Q; thinking long term, what is the route to UK residency once living in the UK under the terms of an EEA family permit?
Also, i am reading that UK citizens are not 'typically allowed to use this route', so is a refusal likely? 
Thanks


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

And another question; are there widely differing rules in different EU countries regarding my partner's entitlements to live there ads my partner? I see Portuagal and Spain as the two highest on my list as I have been fluent in both those languages (a little rusty now but that would soon be fixed); but France also attractive, as is Italiy , Czech republic and Germany (although the language issue might be more of a challenge there). 

If I had an international school job secured in a European country and brought my family, as long as my partner had the required entry visa, she could register as resident due to my status as an employed EU resident? Is that the same in any country? 
Thank you


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

• View topic - Which countries recognise the British civil partnership
This thread is a little out of date but nonetheless useful in answering my own Q above. A lot of Qs there are regarding relationships where one person is a national or the couple are seeking settlement - it's unlikely we would be seeking that in an EU country.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> Does anyone know whether if you enter on the requirement of cash savings, they must be held for the entire 5 year qualification period, or whether they can be used once a couple's joint salaried income reaches 18600GBP?
> 
> The Rules state that they must be cash and not bonds / ISA etc; they MUST be usable, so surely they do not have to remain in a low interest instant-access account and not be used once you have found a job and you meet the financial requirements through work?


If you want to use your savings as part of meeting your financial requirement at each stage of your application process - initial, after 2.5 years, after 5 years, the savings must stay untouched for 6 months leading up to it. So having used savings for your initial visa, you can do what you like with it until the next application stage, and if you want to rely on it to meet your requirement, then the relevant amount (depending on how much you want to use the savings for) needs to be untouched for the six months leading up to your point of application. If you are confident you can meet the financial requirement entirely by your salary or salaries, then you can spend it all.


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> If you can secure a job in an EEA country or Switzerland that pays enough for you both to live on, you can later apply for EEA family permit (which has next to no financial requirement) to bring your wife to UK under European rules.


Hi Joppa, turns out that this was altered in July too - principally that
_
UKBA’s new EEA regulations (The Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012) state that when an EEA national is also British, then the EEA free movement regulations do not apply to them_

miserable, miserable miserable!


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> This is a ray of sunshine - I might be able to get a job in an international school (whose recruitment times would match with my current international school's). When you say we can apply for an EEA family permit later, how much later do you mean?
> Points to consider:
> We are both women with a UK civil partnership. I'm not sure that's recognised everywhere in Europe?
> Could my partner not also work in the European Union if she is registered as my partner?
> ...





> And another question; are there widely differing rules in different EU countries regarding my partner's entitlements to live there ads my partner? I see Portuagal and Spain as the two highest on my list as I have been fluent in both those languages (a little rusty now but that would soon be fixed); but France also attractive, as is Italiy , Czech republic and Germany (although the language issue might be more of a challenge there).
> 
> If I had an international school job secured in a European country and brought my family, as long as my partner had the required entry visa, she could register as resident due to my status as an employed EU resident? Is that the same in any country?


In most EEA countries this isn't a problem, but in some, such as Italy where they don't allow or recognise same-sex marriage or partnership, there may be difficulties. While EU rules state that legal aspects of civil partnership (same-sex union) must be honoured in other countries, enforcing your rights may be difficult, and you may meet local opposition or prohibitions, e.g. when trying to get residence permit for your partner. Spain is ok at the moment, though the current government has said they intend to repeal law on same-sex unions. I think in Portugal you are also ok. Other countries you mention are fine too.

Where your union is recognised, your partner will be able to work. She will need a Schengen visa from the country's consulate, and then get residence permit after entry.

Don't get too worried about low pay. Provided you earn enough to make ends meet in a particular EEA country, you should get EEA permit for your partner to enter UK later.



> Sorry another Q; thinking long term, what is the route to UK residency once living in the UK under the terms of an EEA family permit?
> Also, i am reading that UK citizens are not 'typically allowed to use this route', so is a refusal likely?


British citizen can use the EU route to bring your partner to UK, provided you have exercised your EU treaty rights in another EEA country in an economic capacity, i.e. through working or self-employment and both of you have lived there. It's called Surinder Singh provision.

After getting EEA family permit valid 6 months and entering UK, your partner can apply for residence card valid 5 years, and permanent residency after that.



> UKBA’s new EEA regulations (The Immigration (European Economic Area) (Amendment) Regulations 2012) state that when an EEA national is also British, then the EEA free movement regulations do not apply to them.


This doesn't apply to Surinder Singh provision. What the new rule means is if you are a dual EEA national, such as UK and France, and you try to claim you are exercising treaty rights in UK as a French national and try to bring in your partner, your UK nationality disqualifies you, and your partner must enter through UK immigration rules.


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

You are an absolute mine of knowledge. Thank you. I am looking up the Surinder Singh provision now. Thank you Joppa.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> You are an absolute mine of knowledge. Thank you. I am looking up the Surinder Singh provision now. Thank you Joppa.


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/ecis/chapter2.pdf?view=Binary Section 2.5.1


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/ecis/chapter2.pdf?view=Binary Section 2.5.1


is this recent? i.e. not altered after Jul? I've been talking to a guy whose wife has used this route and has hd to leave the UK to apply for the UK Spouse Visa... according to him the singh provision has been revoked?


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> is this recent? i.e. not altered after Jul? I've been talking to a guy whose wife has used this route and has hd to leave the UK to apply for the UK Spouse Visa... according to him the singh provision has been revoked?


No. It cannot be, as it's based on EU case law, which hasn't been overturned. What has changed is, among other things, following McCarthy judgement, those who hold two EEA citizenships cannot exercise treaty rights in the country they are a national of.

So don't listen to or google trying to find bad news. I know what I'm talking about. You can bring your partner under Surinder Singh.

As for your friend, if he is being hit by the July change, I can't believe his wife has had to leave UK if she is already in UK under previous rules, and in any case the new rules haven't yet been implemented through a a change in application form, though they are imminent.


----------



## Roxx79 (Sep 22, 2012)

Dear Joppa,

A few more Qs re. the Surinder Singh provision:

On what grounds are refusals made for Surinder Singh cases? Are there incidences in which employment by a 'British School' could be construed as working in /for the UK? How do I make sure my job would qualify me for Surinder Singh?

I imagine that we would live and I would work in an international school in Europe for one or two years. What would my spouse's position be for travelling to the UK to visit my parents with our kids during that period of EU employment? 

All being well, if we were to apply for the EEA family permit, we would do so in the EEA country of residence, and then use it to arrive in the UK? 

Then the next step is to apply for the UK residency card? After 5 years of livig and working under the residency card, is it still possible to apply for my spouse to gain ILR? 

Thank you so much for your input - you have been an invaluable help.
R


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Roxx79 said:


> Dear Joppa,
> 
> A few more Qs re. the Surinder Singh provision:
> 
> On what grounds are refusals made for Surinder Singh cases? Are there incidences in which employment by a 'British School' could be construed as working in /for the UK? How do I make sure my job would qualify me for Surinder Singh?


If your job is with a British school that is locally established, and you are on a local contract and paying local tax, it will be fine. But if you are on secondment from a school in UK, without actually working for a local school on a local contract, that can present difficulties.



> I imagine that we would live and I would work in an international school in Europe for one or two years. What would my spouse's position be for travelling to the UK to visit my parents with our kids during that period of EU employment?


She can get an EEA family permit (free to apply) even for a short visit (provided you travel together). Permit itself is valid 6 months for mutiple entry. Much better and easier than getting a visit visa.



> All being well, if we were to apply for the EEA family permit, we would do so in the EEA country of residence, and then use it to arrive in the UK?


Yes. That will be the easiest way, though you can apply for the permit anywhere outside UK. 



> Then the next step is to apply for the UK residence card? After 5 years of living and working under the residence card, is it still possible to apply for my spouse to gain ILR?


Yes. 



> Thank you so much for your input - you have been an invaluable help.


Pleased to be of help.


----------



## MacUK (Jul 3, 2012)

A brief update:
Just got my ELT results, I passed with distinction...woohooo


----------

