# Best way for American to Live in Italy



## JonMystic

Hi, I ami nterested in spending may 4 or 5 months in Italia to experience the life there. I am hoping to study a variety of languages and I want to excel in Italian. Italian culture and lifestyle is very interesting to me, but I understand it has a tricky bureaucracy to overcome, especially if you are a non-EU citizen. 

Besides teaching English, which I hear is not even a feasible way to gain residency for an American, what would be a good way to stay in Italy longer than the typical 3 months allowance. Also, I would like to spend a year travelling around the EU, how can this be done without being expelled because I overstay my 90 day allowance, which is utterly ridiculous in my opinion, considering how big Europe is. How can an American spend a year travelling through Europe? 

I have so many questions, this is one of my first posts here on the board, but I am eager to hear the stories of others in my situation who have succeeded in gaining residency.

As far as my job, I am a software developer and I am seekign to start a web software business. I do not have a college degree, but rather left school to work for family software business. However, I do have 10+ years of experience in the field. I guess my skills are not exactly marketable and I am seeking a way to make money online and not have to be at the mercy of local employers. However, I need to think of a way that I can stay in the country without being thrown out. Also, I don't want to do anything illegal or at least that is not acceptable by those countries . E.g, when I was in africa, bribes are always expected, so I am not against doing anything that is safe to do, especially if the government operates that way. But, I want to stay as abiding to the laws, customs or whatever that I can be on good legal terms. I do not want a sham marriage or fake passport or anything of that nature.

Thanks for advice people can give me.


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## Bevdeforges

Can't help you too much with Italy, as I have yet to visit there, but for traveling around Europe in general, the main requirement is that you have a "base residence" and that you are a "contributing" member of society. (Contributing, that is, to the local social insurances.) In the case of retirees, you have to be able to prove your financial means - preferably a pension or annuity of some variety - sufficient to keep you off the local benefits system.

The 90 day limit is designed for tourists or the odd business trip - and I guess it's assumed that past that point you have to have some means of earning a living. To the extent that you are working in a place, you are subject to the local labor laws (unless clearly on a "business trip" from your home base) - including making the necessary contributions toward the health and retirement systems, as well as taxes.

The one big issue you're up against is the nature of your employment. To get a visa, you generally have to have an employer to sponsor your application. It's possible to set up a self-employment business once you're resident somewhere, but normally the intention to do so isn't enough to satisfy the authorities to issue you a visa.
Cheers,
Bev


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## NickZ

Short of finding an employer willing to help with a visa I can't think of any other way to work. Unemployment is around 8% but can be much higher for younger workers. Or much lower if your skills are in demand. 

90 days is just for the visa zone. The UK isn't in the zone. I don't know how they treat Americans but in general I think they allow six months. Other parts of Europe are outside the zone. So you can travel to those countries without cutting into your 90 day limit.


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## JonMystic

Thanks for the replies.. I really don't actually need a job in Europe. I am a software developer and I will be trying to start my own web business and I am currently employed in a business where I telecommute from home. All I really need is a high speed internet connection and I am set. Also, I was told some people make extra money in some European countries by teaching English on the side. Well, don't realy know if it is a feasible income or if it would work to supplement me a bit. Of course, I am not a teacher, so it would be all under the table. However, I am thinking my current work as a software developer will help support me while I travel around Europe. The only problem now, is not being able to make money, but rather convince the governments in each country to let me stay; that is not to deport me, because of expired visa, etc.

If anyone can expand on what they mean by the zone, I would appreciate it. I have no plans on visiting the UK, so I don't think any laws of the UK would help me. This is just an example. Lets say I want to start my travel in Italy, then go to Bulgaria, Romania, Switzerland, France, Poland. Can all this be done over a period of 6 months to a year. Lets say I have the means to support myself, but I want to spend maybe 2 months in each of these Eu countries. Would the time I spent in one country not count for the times I spent in another country? If anyone can explain to me about the rules for this situation I would appreciate it. The entire EU laws are very confusing to me.

I was looking into EU citizenship through a UK ancestry visa, as my grandfather was born in England. However, because I am not a commonwealth citizen, I think it would be impossible to get based on that.

I am thinking maybe one day if my web business takes off, I can try to hire some programmers in Eastern Europe, since the wages are lower there and they are high skilled. I am not sure if that would help influence a government's decision on giving me residency. I understand many countries want like $250,000 in their bank for a business residency permit. However, all this is far in the future, as I just have enough right now to support myself. I was considering though maybe working with some foreign programmers on an affiliate program type of basis which would be more feasible for the near future.


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## Bevdeforges

The zone people talk about is the Schengen area. (Read about it here: Schengen Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Basically, as a US citizen, you are entitled to stay for a period of up to 90 days within the Schengen area on admission to any of the Schengen countries. It works more or less like the Visa Waiver program for foreigners coming to the US - just the entry stamp in your passport authorizes your stay.

To stay in Europe for longer than 90 days requires you to obtain a long-stay visa in one of the European (or Schengen area) countries. The UK (not being a Schengen country) will admit US citizens for up to 6 months on a "tourist" entry - but like in the US, being admitted for the full 6 month period depends on your convincing the immigration official that you're not planning on overstaying, nor on working in the UK, nor in setting up a more permanent form of residence.

For details about terms and conditions for a "long stay visa" (i.e. anything over 90 days in most European countries), check the individual country's consulate website in the US.
Cheers,
Bev


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## JonMystic

Sounds like the Schengen visa is a real pain. I guess I will have to investigate what I can do to convince a consulate that I want to stay for 6 months. I know i can financially support myself throughout the trip. If I tell themI am working for an American company through telecommunication via Internet and VOIP, would that satisfy them that I am self-sufficient? Or, would this qualify as foreign employment and would they get mad that I am generating income in the country, even though the source is from USA? I know this is the type of red tape that gets to me. 

I guess my final answer is to hopefully fall in love within 90 days and get marriage visa  Sorry, I am being sarcastic.. :focus: ANyhow, I think I have to think of something. Where there is a will there is a way; I know I can make this work somehow.


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## Bevdeforges

JonMystic said:


> If I tell themI am working for an American company through telecommunication via Internet and VOIP, would that satisfy them that I am self-sufficient? Or, would this qualify as foreign employment and would they get mad that I am generating income in the country, even though the source is from USA? I know this is the type of red tape that gets to me.


If you are going to be working while physically in the country - and especially if you're going to be staying for 183 days or more - you are considered "tax resident" there and expected to register for and pay the various social insurances.

Talk to the Italian consulate and see what they tell you - but non-working visas are generally limited to "tourists." It may be possible to get a student visa if you're attending a language school, and that allows for limited work while studying (though generally you are expected to pay into the local insurance system).
Cheers,
Bev


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## NickZ

The extended visa requires you to manage in a worst case. If you need to work then even by telecomputing what happens if you lose your job? You need to be able to support yourself without working.

Pension,savings etc.


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## Guest

JonMystic said:


> Hi, I ami nterested in spending may 4 or 5 months in Italia to experience the life there. I am hoping to study a variety of languages and I want to excel in Italian. Italian culture and lifestyle is very interesting to me, but I understand it has a tricky bureaucracy to overcome, especially if you are a non-EU citizen.
> 
> Besides teaching English, which I hear is not even a feasible way to gain residency for an American, what would be a good way to stay in Italy longer than the typical 3 months allowance. Also, I would like to spend a year travelling around the EU, how can this be done without being expelled because I overstay my 90 day allowance, which is utterly ridiculous in my opinion, considering how big Europe is. How can an American spend a year travelling through Europe?
> 
> I have so many questions, this is one of my first posts here on the board, but I am eager to hear the stories of others in my situation who have succeeded in gaining residency.
> 
> As far as my job, I am a software developer and I am seekign to start a web software business. I do not have a college degree, but rather left school to work for family software business. However, I do have 10+ years of experience in the field. I guess my skills are not exactly marketable and I am seeking a way to make money online and not have to be at the mercy of local employers. However, I need to think of a way that I can stay in the country without being thrown out. Also, I don't want to do anything illegal or at least that is not acceptable by those countries . E.g, when I was in africa, bribes are always expected, so I am not against doing anything that is safe to do, especially if the government operates that way. But, I want to stay as abiding to the laws, customs or whatever that I can be on good legal terms. I do not want a sham marriage or fake passport or anything of that nature.
> 
> Thanks for advice people can give me.


My first question would be, did they stamp your passport when you entered the zone? I've flown in and out of Italy several times during the last four months and my passport was not stamped so that begs the question: How does anyone in the zone know when you arrived and when your 90 days has lapsed?

If they stamped it, can't you simply leave within 90 days and return whereupon you begin the 90 day cycle again?

My advice would be to seek an immigration lawyer's advice. For a few bucks you can have an answer you can bank on.


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## Guest

JonMystic said:


> Hi, I ami nterested in spending may 4 or 5 months in Italia to experience the life there. I am hoping to study a variety of languages and I want to excel in Italian. Italian culture and lifestyle is very interesting to me, but I understand it has a tricky bureaucracy to overcome, especially if you are a non-EU citizen.
> 
> Besides teaching English, which I hear is not even a feasible way to gain residency for an American, what would be a good way to stay in Italy longer than the typical 3 months allowance. Also, I would like to spend a year travelling around the EU, how can this be done without being expelled because I overstay my 90 day allowance, which is utterly ridiculous in my opinion, considering how big Europe is. How can an American spend a year travelling through Europe?
> 
> I have so many questions, this is one of my first posts here on the board, but I am eager to hear the stories of others in my situation who have succeeded in gaining residency.
> 
> As far as my job, I am a software developer and I am seekign to start a web software business. I do not have a college degree, but rather left school to work for family software business. However, I do have 10+ years of experience in the field. I guess my skills are not exactly marketable and I am seeking a way to make money online and not have to be at the mercy of local employers. However, I need to think of a way that I can stay in the country without being thrown out. Also, I don't want to do anything illegal or at least that is not acceptable by those countries . E.g, when I was in africa, bribes are always expected, so I am not against doing anything that is safe to do, especially if the government operates that way. But, I want to stay as abiding to the laws, customs or whatever that I can be on good legal terms. I do not want a sham marriage or fake passport or anything of that nature.
> 
> Thanks for advice people can give me.


Also, I have owned and operated several large web based businesses in the U.S. and when I came to Italy I was surprised to see the "state" of their web offerings both on the storefront and informational side.

Compared to the U.S. the number and quality of web based merchandising sites in Italy is really lacking.

And on the information side businesses here are poorly represented on the web. When I look at the sites businesses have here it reminds me of 1997 web - a lot of poorly designed sites (graphic, navigation and content). A lot of the sites for local business are especially bad. Unbelievable actually. It looks like these sites were put up by the owner's nephew who took a computer course in high school.

Perhaps the first faulty assumption would be, "Wow! What an opportunity!"

But maybe Italians don't care so much about that? 

The buying habits of a culture can vary widely from the American experience. However, based on my experience, people everywhere want information and they are increasingly seeking the web as "the source" for information. So it stands to reason that the titans of commerce would take this trend into account and be duly represented on the web. Not so here in Italy. Sure there are plenty of great sites here. But as a percentage overall? No. I know because I've looked online to find merchants locally here in Rome: Cars, apartments, motorcycles, lamps, furniture, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Italy is experiencing the same kind of evolution we saw in the U.S. with respect to the web. First, travel agents disappeared back home. Then local newspaper classifieds died. Then newspapers. And the inexorable march towards the web is all but over back home.

Here in Italy apartments, real estate and even motor vehicles are also marketed by word-of-mouth. The extent of this varies from location to location in Italy.

But I know some Italians that are in the real estate business and they are getting great results on the web with what I would describe as primitive web sites - no real time data (no data driven sites - period), poor user tools and even worse site design. Oddly enough, those in the real estate business have been particularly successful on the web marketing to other Europeans that speak English (Germans, Dutch, English, etc.).

I went to one particularly good long term rental site called Halldis. This site is actually a programming and design masterpiece. When I tried to tell my Italian friend who has over 100 apartment rentals under his belt that he could really benefit from creating a site like this, he had no interest. He was mostly interested in talking about the women in Piazza Farnese. LOL! Enough said.

Hey, I'm here only four months and there is still a lot I do not know about it. I see opportunity here but the barriers to entry are formidable. In the end there exists a need and the tools (solutions) are available and the businesses here would certainly benefit from the investment. So someone needs to make the sale. It would be difficult, but not impossible. Anyone can have a good idea but it stills needs to be sold.


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## NickZ

joesantilli said:


> My first question would be, did they stamp your passport when you entered the zone? I've flown in and out of Italy several times during the last four months and my passport was not stamped so that begs the question: How does anyone in the zone know when you arrived and when your 90 days has lapsed?
> 
> If they stamped it, can't you simply leave within 90 days and return whereupon you begin the 90 day cycle again?
> 
> My advice would be to seek an immigration lawyer's advice. For a few bucks you can have an answer you can bank on.



One it's up to you to prove you have the legal right to be here.

Two the airline computer registers you.

Three it's 90 days in 180 period. It's a sliding window.


Plenty of Italian sale sights. Just go to Google and plug in what you're looking for. Then pick the one with the best shipping etc . They all take COD so no risk.


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## Guest

NickZ said:


> One it's up to you to prove you have the legal right to be here.
> 
> Two the airline computer registers you.
> 
> Three it's 90 days in 180 period. It's a sliding window.
> 
> 
> Plenty of Italian sale sights. Just go to Google and plug in what you're looking for. Then pick the one with the best shipping etc . They all take COD so no risk.


1. I believe you but where are all these Italian authorities we need to be seeking out to prove we have the legal right to be here? There are probably 100,000 American tourists here at any given time and since he isn't seeking employment per se, don't you think finding him amongst all those others is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?

2. Airline computers registers visitors? What if he arrived by train? This is really absurd. I've yet to see any Italian law enforcement official with a computer much less one with live data feeds from the airlines in order to cull out visitors that overstay their 90 days. Italy's notorious bureaucracy is still using paper at the Comunes and just about every other branch of government. For God's sake i was in a Comune last week and saw a Wyse terminal. I could have sworn it had a kickstarter.

3. Like I said, ask a lawyer. I had one of these so-called experts here give me 20 reasons why I couldn't get a vehicle registered. And a couple of Italians too. Low and behold I got plates legally one week later. Period.


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## Bevdeforges

joesantilli said:


> 1. I believe you but where are all these Italian authorities we need to be seeking out to prove we have the legal right to be here? There are probably 100,000 American tourists here at any given time and since he isn't seeking employment per se, don't you think finding him amongst all those others is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?
> 
> 2. Airline computers registers visitors? What if he arrived by train? This is really absurd. I've yet to see any Italian law enforcement official with a computer much less one with live data feeds from the airlines in order to cull out visitors that overstay their 90 days. Italy's notorious bureaucracy is still using paper at the Comunes and just about every other branch of government. For God's sake i was in a Comune last week and saw a Wyse terminal. I could have sworn it had a kickstarter.
> 
> 3. Like I said, ask a lawyer. I had one of these so-called experts here give me 20 reasons why I couldn't get a vehicle registered. And a couple of Italians too. Low and behold I got plates legally one week later. Period.


To be perfectly honest about it, the "Schengen visa" provisions aren't terribly well policed. If you are genuinely a tourist, chances are you can overstay your 90 day Schengen allowance with little or no consequences.

Where the stamp in the passport comes into play is usually when you need for any reason to prove your legal status in Italy or anywhere within the EU. We've had a case here in the forum of someone who entered Schengen by air through Italy, then ultimately tried to settle in another Schengen country.

In order to get the appropriate resident documents (needed for many reasons - from renting a home to taking a job, enrolling in the health care system, or paying taxes), they had to prove they were legally in the country, and the only evidence they had was the stamp in their passport showing entry into Italy. The fact that the stamp was more than 90 days old meant their application for residence docs was denied.

And different countries have different standards for "proving" your arrival. Some insist on the stamp in the passport. Others may accept circumstantial evidence - like boarding pass receipts - but others won't.
Cheers,
Bev


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## NickZ

joesantilli said:


> 1. I believe you but where are all these Italian authorities we need to be seeking out to prove we have the legal right to be here? There are probably 100,000 American tourists here at any given time and since he isn't seeking employment per se, don't you think finding him amongst all those others is like looking for a needle in a stack of needles?
> 
> 2. Airline computers registers visitors? What if he arrived by train? This is really absurd. I've yet to see any Italian law enforcement official with a computer much less one with live data feeds from the airlines in order to cull out visitors that overstay their 90 days. Italy's notorious bureaucracy is still using paper at the Comunes and just about every other branch of government. For God's sake i was in a Comune last week and saw a Wyse terminal. I could have sworn it had a kickstarter.
> 
> 3. Like I said, ask a lawyer. I had one of these so-called experts here give me 20 reasons why I couldn't get a vehicle registered. And a couple of Italians too. Low and behold I got plates legally one week later. Period.



Italy, Holy See (Vatican City) and San Marino

What does that say? 



> As of May 2007, under Italian law, all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence)


Do you have trains that get to Europe from the US? Wow the stuff I learn

I can find you a lawyer that will argue evolution is made up. Lawyers give opinions. Oh the irony of that statement.


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## JonMystic

Thanks for all the information that eveyrone has given me. I am really confused about all the rules and regulations. I really would love to avoid speaking to lawyers as much as possible, as they usually never help you for any small amount of money. I am thinking I would be lucky to spend $250 at least for just mediocre advice. Well, I will do more of my own research and can see what will happened. 

I have been employed by the same company, family business, for over 8 years, so there really is no way I will be losing my job while I am over there. Also, I am embarking in the web software development biz. I am planning on creating websites that will manage business, basically an n-Tier app used with a Web UI frontend. Its nice to hear Italy is a bit behind on web development. Who knows, maybe my skills will be useful there. However, convincing the government I am useful or just convincing them that I can afford my living over there is completely different story. 

I know I can easily survive financially in Europe for a couple of years, but this is not about survival, this is about workign around the system, so I can travel around Europe and stay there for a year or more.

Italy is on the top of my list, but its not the only place I want to stay. I would love to venture around Eastern Europe as well as some other Western European countries. Switzerland is also on my list, but the cost of living there I hear is outrageous.

The whole Schengen thing sounds like a mess.. If one EU or Schengen country grants me a longer stay, beacuse, e.g., I win the heart of some consular, etc, does that mean I can stay in the entire EU for that duration as well?


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## Bevdeforges

JonMystic said:


> The whole Schengen thing sounds like a mess.. If one EU or Schengen country grants me a longer stay, beacuse, e.g., I win the heart of some consular, etc, does that mean I can stay in the entire EU for that duration as well?


You should have been here BEFORE Schengen! That was really a mess!

In any event, if you manage to get a long-stay visa in a Schengen country, it means that you can base your travels there and then visit other Schengen or EU countries for periods of up to 90 days based on your residence wherever. But you are considered resident (and a tax payer) in the country that granted you the long-stay visa.
Cheers,
Bev


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## JonMystic

Bevdeforges said:


> You should have been here BEFORE Schengen! That was really a mess!
> 
> In any event, if you manage to get a long-stay visa in a Schengen country, it means that you can base your travels there and then visit other Schengen or EU countries for periods of up to 90 days based on your residence wherever. But you are considered resident (and a tax payer) in the country that granted you the long-stay visa.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I'd rather try my luck with each individual government, getting a visa or passport stamp, then being thrown out of the enitre continent after a 90 day trip. I am sure it is better for EU nationals like yourself, but the Schengen agreement is no friend to Americans like me. 

Once again, thanks for the info. I am going to think of a plan, I don't know what, but I am not the kind of guy who gives up easily. If I have to, I will think of some well-constructed way to convince government to extend my stay or try to make deals with locals who can utilize my services. Being a web software programmer, I am also hoping one day that I can utilize these skills there.

Also, there is cheaper labor and programmers in the ex-Eastern bloc. That is a long term goal, as I said. Does anyone think if I can somehow work with developers on side business projects that perhaps they may be able to work out a long term permit for me? Lets say I decide to assist them in developing a local web business or websites. Perhaps, they would like to have a skilled partner from USA. I am just throwing out ideas here, even though they are a bit vague.

I suppose if you want an invester or business residency permit, you need like $250,000+ in the bank?? Seeing how the Euro is dropping, there is no way I would do that even if I had a fraction of that money. LOL

One other long term goal I have is to become multi-lingual. Do you think that if you are fluent in multiple languages of EU, such as Italian, French, Spanish, etc that you can become a more valueable asset there? My brother speaks fluently about 5 languages, and non-fluently, many more. I am hoping to following his example.


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## Bevdeforges

JonMystic said:


> I'd rather try my luck with each individual government, getting a visa or passport stamp, then being thrown out of the enitre continent after a 90 day trip. I am sure it is better for EU nationals like yourself, but the Schengen agreement is no friend to Americans like me.


I've only been an EU national for a couple of years now. Had to contend with the lack of Schengen until 1995 or so - and then ran into difficulties as the Schengen thing was just being implemented. 



> Once again, thanks for the info. I am going to think of a plan, I don't know what, but I am not the kind of guy who gives up easily. If I have to, I will think of some well-constructed way to convince government to extend my stay or try to make deals with locals who can utilize my services. Being a web software programmer, I am also hoping one day that I can utilize these skills there.
> 
> Also, there is cheaper labor and programmers in the ex-Eastern bloc. That is a long term goal, as I said. Does anyone think if I can somehow work with developers on side business projects that perhaps they may be able to work out a long term permit for me? Lets say I decide to assist them in developing a local web business or websites. Perhaps, they would like to have a skilled partner from USA. I am just throwing out ideas here, even though they are a bit vague.


At the moment, the whole issue of immigration is very sensitive in most countries (i.e. think of what it's like in the US just now). You'd have to check the individual countries' consular websites, but most countries require you to apply for a long-stay visa from the country in which you are currently resident. There are a few exceptions, but for these you need to be making a huge and important contribution to the national economy or culture - or marrying an EU national already established in the country.



> I suppose if you want an invester or business residency permit, you need like $250,000+ in the bank?? Seeing how the Euro is dropping, there is no way I would do that even if I had a fraction of that money. LOL


Not all countries have investor visas. Normally if you want to set up a business, you do it with local nationals, or with people transfered over from your home country headquarters. And, among those that do, it's not how much you have in the bank, but rather how much you're going to invest in the country - bricks and mortar, salaries, etc.



> One other long term goal I have is to become multi-lingual. Do you think that if you are fluent in multiple languages of EU, such as Italian, French, Spanish, etc that you can become a more valueable asset there? My brother speaks fluently about 5 languages, and non-fluently, many more. I am hoping to following his example.


Your chances for a visa are always enhanced by fluency in the local language. Fluency in a variety of languages can be helpful in the job hunt overseas - and since it's normally a job offer that leads to a long-stay visa, well, you do the math.
Cheers,
Bev


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## JonMystic

Thanks for the detailed information, Bev .. And, also to all others. I have some investigating to do. It seems like marriage or doing engaging in some special type of business will keep me there. I suppose if you overstay your visas they will either imprison you, deport you and not let you ever enter the countries again, right? I don't like doing things illegal, I like playing by the rules..

If I decide to stay in a non-Schengen country how long do I have to wait before I can reenter the Schengen countries again? I suppose my only choices are Switzerland and a few other Eastern EUropean countries, some that I don't know if I want or are safe to visit. I was looking at Bulgaria, but it looks like it will be Schengen by the time I go there.. Too bad 4 me.. LOL


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## adw

Switzerland is in the Shengen zone


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