# Tenants rights ? Am I going mad ?



## Guest (Sep 3, 2012)

Hi Guys,

We rent a house on the Costa Brava for €800 per month and paid an agency an €800 fee when we moved in.

They promised us a hassle free experience. When we moved in there were a few problems, ie, light switch that didn't work, toilet not flushing properly, kitchen sink leaking water in a cupboard and so on. I made a small list of 4/5 things that needed to be done and the agency sorted them out.

Now recently I informed them that the garage fob wasn't working and they advised me to fix it myself.

Last night our bedroom door wouldn't open as the handle mechanism failed. We called them this morning and they gave us a number. The guy came and fixed it and WE had to pay him. We called the agency and they said basically too many things were breaking and we had to pay for it.

I'm a fairly reasonable guy but this is surely not on ?

This could escalate into a serious issue as I'm not going to back down unless you guys tell me that this is normal out here. And by normal I mean legally as opposed to what you should expect to 'just' happen.

I'm think of paying this months rent but minus what i paid the tradesman. 

I can be a bit of a flip head over stuff like this so I will listen to any advice but I just can't get my head round it. Am I meant to fix this guys property just because he has finished it cheaply ? I'm a good tenant. Respectful. Haven't broken anything. 

Please advise before I flip.

Cheers

Danny


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

First make certain your contract doesn't state somewhere that you are liable for repairs or that the landlord is liable. Really this is a bit of a grey area. For example, in our villa the washing machine packed up 3 months after we moved in and the landlord paid for the repair. But he told us that as we were using the machine if it broke down again we had to pay for it. It has broken down 6 times now. The first three times we paid the same guy who the landlord paid first time but after that we found a shop that sells washing machine spairs. So now I fix it. It broke down again yesterday (always the same problem - door catch snaps in half) so this time I'm going to suggest to the landlord that he supplies us with a new machine as this one clearly isn't fit for purpose.

I think the real issue is how well you get on with your landlord, or do you even see him? Is everything done via the agents in which case I suspect they don't want to fork out any money. I know other people have done exactly what you suggest and take off the amounts you have paid for repairs from the rent, but make sure you have all the receipts. There are some posters on here who are well up on rental laws and no doubt they will also have an input.

The skimmers on our pool packed up and now the pool is leaking. The landlord told us it is his problem and in October he will have the pool dug up and fully repaired which he will pay for. He has also told us we can decorate anywhere inside the villa if we want to, but painting outside is also our responsibility and has to be done once every two years.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks Thrax,

So are you saying that the agency pay ? I would have thought that they would fix problems and then bill the owner.

We have never met the owner, just the agent.

Also, since we have moved in they have sold the house (we move out in december) so maybe the owner is just being tight ?

Anyway, as a reasonable guy I just don't want my head busted about this. I ain't freakin paying to repair what I didn't break. I just wanted some feedback before I do anything. The contract is in Spanish so I'll wait for a few more replies (hopefully) before I decide what to do.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Danny&Claire said:


> Thanks Thrax,
> 
> So are you saying that the agency pay ? I would have thought that they would fix problems and then bill the owner.
> 
> ...


You need to get the contract translated a.s.a.p! How could you sign it without knowing what you were signing?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

By law the contract has to be in Spanish but you can ask for an English translation before signing it. As a rule, when we look for a house to rent we try to make sure it isn't also for sale. As you are moving out in December I'd be tempted to take off your repair bills from the rent and then argue it out with the agents. But don't forget they hold your deposit and that can be a nightmare to get back.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2012)

I signed it because I'm a clown. Simple as.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

as thrax says.....it does sort of depend

the law is actually quite clear that the landlord is responsible for repairs Ley 29/1994, de 24 de noviembre, de Arrendamientos Urbanos

here's the relevant bit translated 



> 1. The landlord is required to perform, without the right to raise the rent for it, all repairs necessary to keep the home in living conditions to serve the agreed usage, unless the damage for which compensation is attributable to the tenant concerned , under the provisions of Articles 1563 and 1564 of the Civil Code . The obligation to repair is limited by the destruction of housing for reasons not attributable to the lessor. To this end, it will be as provided in Article 28 .


it does include furniture & so on in the house - unless it is specifically mentioned separately in the contract as the tenant's responsibility


the kicker is that the landlord will pretty much always claim that it's down to your misuse - & that's hard to prove either way


I have a similar issue as thrax - when I rented this house it came with an ancient dishwasher which broke down within 48 hours & flooded the ground floor

the owner had someone in to repair it - then it broke down again - same thing - a couple of months later 

the owner got the repair guy in who took it away, stripped it down , de-calcified ?? it, brought it back & asked for iirc 200€ - I said he could get it off the landlord......... and he went on his merry way

when my husband went to pay the next lot of rent the landlord said he also had to pay the dishwasher repair............. after the blue air cleared my OH said he could forget that & if the dishwasher broke again we'd buy a new one & when we move out he can either buy it off us or we'd take it with us 

@ Thrax - unless it specifically states in your contract that you are responsible for the outside painting it is no way down to you


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> @ Thrax - unless it specifically states in your contract that you are responsible for the outside painting it is no way down to you


Well I agree but if we want it painted we'd better not hold our breath and wait for the landlord. We've already painted the outside garden walls - using his paint though. Last place we were in the implication was that if we didn't paint the oputside of the house we wouldn't get our deposit back. We weren't going to get it back anyway as they were a pair of crooks.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> Well I agree but if we want it painted we'd better not hold our breath and wait for the landlord. We've already painted the outside garden walls - using his paint though. Last place we were in the implication was that if we didn't paint the oputside of the house we wouldn't get our deposit back. We weren't going to get it back anyway as they were a pair of crooks.


as you know - you hardly ever get your deposit back anyway


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

and to think so many on here recommend to newbies that they long-term rent for a couple of years first!!! Many newbies can barely string together more than a few words of Spanish and they are "dos cervezas por favor"


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> and to think so many on here recommend to newbies that they long-term rent for a couple of years first!!! Many newbies can barely string together more than a few words of Spanish and they are "dos cervezas por favor"



on the FAQs sticky on the 'renting' post it does say 'get your contract independently translated


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Danny&Claire said:


> Thanks Thrax,
> 
> So are you saying that the agency pay ? I would have thought that they would fix problems and then bill the owner.
> 
> ...


We had a similar experience when we arrived in Spain. We rented via an agent who turned out to be a crook. After being asked to pay for repairs that were the landlord's responsibility and a couple of other disagreeable incidents we decided to move out as it was clear that we would continue to have problems whenever a repair was needed.

We knew we wouldn't get our deposit back -1800 euros, too much to lose, so we stayed in situ for two months. Then we left and moved into the villa we now rent and where we are lucky enough to have an exceptional landlord -he has just returned to his native Vienna and invited me to fly over and be his guest!

The agent was not happy with our keeping the deposit and not paying rent and threatened us with the police at which we laughed and said 'Bring it on' (And other things..) One morning before we left we found the window of our LR smashed - it must have been the agent or her equally crooked partner as it was in a locked garage.
Although over three years have passed I have not given up thoughts of revenge and am constantly on the lookout for their unattended vehicles with car key in hand....

My advice would be pay no more rent and move when you've used up your deposit. If you've started like this, it's likely you'll have more problems.
Check your contract: does it include the landlord's name,address and DNI /NIE number which I believe it must contain, as well as the agent's details?
When we first agreed to take our house, the landlord flew from Austria to sign the contract with us.
If the agent harasses you in any way, call the police...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> on the FAQs sticky on the 'renting' post it does say 'get your contract independently translated


But, as you and I know, so many just blunder in, blindly following their dream using rose-coloured spectacles to gloss over any (including the most glaring) imperfections in their plans believing that they have the same legal protections here as they had where they came from. The only thing they associate with "sticky" is the "Post-it" on the fridge reminding them that they need some gas for the BBQ.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But, as you and I know, so many just blunder in, blindly following their dream using rose-coloured spectacles to gloss over any (including the most glaring) imperfections in their plans believing that they have the same legal protections here as they had where they came from. The only thing they associate with "sticky" is the "Post-it" on the fridge reminding them that they need some gas for the BBQ.


true, so many do

I met a woman a few years ago - she'd been here about 6 months & had set herself up as a letting agent

she had recently rented a house - by coincidence, we knew the 'agent' she had rented from - they demanded 3 months rent upfront, 2 months deposit iirc - and an agent fee equal to a month 

she was horrified when we told her that what she had paid wasn't standard - & neither was the contract she had signed - in fact the contract was barely legal..........and you guessed it - her English version was nothing like the original Spanish one

remember - this woman was working as an agent herself

she's still here & working as an agent & I recently had cause to look at her website when some friends of mine were having trouble moving out of one of the properties she lets

the website is sadly full of misinformation about the legalities of renting, and she asks for ott deposits & so on - but I'm not surprised............


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> But, as you and I know, so many just blunder in, blindly following their dream using rose-coloured spectacles to gloss over any (including the most glaring) imperfections in their plans believing that they have the same legal protections here as they had where they came from. The only thing they associate with "sticky" is the "Post-it" on the fridge reminding them that they need some gas for the BBQ.



I don't think this tone is overly helpful. A tad condescending. 

I'm a seasoned traveller and some of the places I've "come from" didn't provide me with ANY legal protection. I'm here (at very short notice) to support my partners dream in pursuing her career path. So I haven't blundered in, I'm not blind, my glasses are certainly not rose tainted and my plans on being in this Country are for as short a period as possible. 

I asked a fairly innocent question about what the 'norm' is re my original post. I asked for peoples advice on what is considered normal while dealing with agencies for house repairs.

Sorry if my post in any way upset you.

Cheers

Danny


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks everybody for all the advice. 

I going down the road of reasonable (deduct monies paid for repair from the rent) and I'll take it from there. 

Cheers

Danny


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Danny&Claire said:


> Thanks everybody for all the advice.
> 
> I going down the road of reasonable (deduct monies paid for repair from the rent) and I'll take it from there.
> 
> ...




I'd do that whilst looking for another place to rent with hopefully less hassle.

People usually start as they intend to go on....I predict more problems with this agent...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I'd do that whilst looking for another place to rent with hopefully less hassle.
> 
> People usually start as they intend to go on....I predict more problems with this agent...


Already on to it. I've got me boxes out again. 

I do think it will all smooth over though. I can't see the owner being so unreasonable. It may even have been lost in translation what actually happened. 

For example, they may think we broke the lock on the door rather than realising that the handle mechanism failed. The house is only 10-12 years old and is very nice but unfortunately they seem to have skimped on quality in certain areas. I think that is not the way to do it (fur coat no knickers) but seemingly final fixtures are not very important to Spanish builders. 

Thanks again

Danny


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Danny&Claire said:


> I don't think this tone is overly helpful. A tad condescending.
> 
> I'm a seasoned traveller and some of the places I've "come from" didn't provide me with ANY legal protection. I'm here (at very short notice) to support my partners dream in pursuing her career path. So I haven't blundered in, I'm not blind, my glasses are certainly not rose tainted and my plans on being in this Country are for as short a period as possible.
> 
> ...


It wasn't intended to be condescending nor was it directed at you specifically, but others read these threads for info expecting everything to be laid out nice and neatly for them and to suit their peculiar circumstances without their even lifting a finger to help themselves and then expect those of us who took the trouble to open our eyes first before making the big jump to pick up the pieces for them. Many of those who come here expect all the protections that occur in the UK, e.g. sale of goods act, ombudsmen, etc.. and they either don't exist here or if they do, they are in a very different form. For example, expecting to get one's deposit back at the end of a rental period - only happens very rarely - the landlord will invariably find some reason for his not paying, so the norm is to not pay the last month's rent. 

People do the same in UK, too. People move out of big cities such as London to the countryside into villages and wonder why there aren't buses avery ten minutes and a choice of three supermarkets just round the corner...

Sorry if you thought it was a personal afront.


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## Minerva.909 (Jul 29, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> and to think so many on here recommend to newbies that they long-term rent for a couple of years first!!! Many newbies can barely string together more than a few words of Spanish and they are "dos cervezas por favor"


There is nothing wrong with renting - on the contrary, providing you are not too gullible.
Perhaps this forum could in one of the stickies put a typical (or ideal) rental contract in English and Spanish? 

With several important clauses like who is responsible for what repairs, what would constitute a misuse of equipment, furniture etc. and the time frame for landlord to do repairs. You want to be legally able to walk away from a contract if a landlord does not fulfill his/hers contractual obligations.

Just a thought.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Minerva.909 said:


> There is nothing wrong with renting - on the contrary, providing you are not too gullible.
> Perhaps this forum could in one of the stickies put a typical (or ideal) rental contract in English and Spanish?
> 
> With several important clauses like who is responsible for what repairs, what would constitute a misuse of equipment, furniture etc. and the time frame for landlord to do repairs. You want to be legally able to walk away from a contract if a landlord does not fulfill his/hers contractual obligations.
> ...


there are 'standard' rental contracts available online - some landlords use them - you can buy them in estancos & papelerías

the important thing though about a contract is that both parties are happy with what is in it (every rental contract I have signed has been the result of the 'standard' one being negotiated upon )............ & as it _does _say on our FAQs, that it is independently translated if you don't speak Spanish

if anything isn't covered in a contract it is automatically covered by the LAU


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Minerva.909 said:


> There is nothing wrong with renting - on the contrary, providing you are not too gullible.
> Perhaps this forum could in one of the stickies put a typical (or ideal) rental contract in English and Spanish?
> 
> With several important clauses like who is responsible for what repairs, what would constitute a misuse of equipment, furniture etc. and the time frame for landlord to do repairs. You want to be legally able to walk away from a contract if a landlord does not fulfill his/hers contractual obligations.
> ...


There are plenty of contracts available on the internet. If they're not in English, then Google translate will give the gist.


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## shoemanpete (Jan 4, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> and to think so many on here recommend to newbies that they long-term rent for a couple of years first!!! Many newbies can barely string together more than a few words of Spanish and they are "dos cervezas por favor"


....and I am one of those who advocates renting as you know  It must always be advisable to go through a reputable agent on the 'high street' and not one of those in the paper that only give a mobile number. ( no doubt someone will now say some high str agents can be dodgy) Most unscrupulous agents usually show themselves by their attitude and perhaps sales pressure etc. 
We are so lucky with our rental, the landlord and his family live 'on-site' so accommodating, friendly, generous - just how Spanish people genuinely are. 
I do sympathise with my fellow forum members who have troubles and hope all ends well.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

If you're gullible with a rental why wouldn't you be gullible with a purchase?

It would seem for the gullible renting would be safer. Losing a deposit on a rental is going to pale against a bad purchase.


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## zkady (Sep 8, 2012)

> Hi Guys,
> 
> We rent a house on the Costa Brava for €800 per month and paid an agency an €800 fee when we moved in.
> 
> ...



You should get the things fixed up and get an invoice from the handyman. 
Then *deduct* the handyman cost from your next rental check, followed by an email to the landlord/agency with the attached invoice.


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## Eamon (Mar 5, 2009)

I had a similar experience. The original contract they wanted me to sign stated that if anything breaks, I would be liable. I refused to sign that one, and asked for an "add on" saying that if something broke through normal "wear and tear" the owner was to replace or fix. Recently the electric kettle blew up, so I went out bought a new one (14 euros) and took it off rent. Owner was NOT happy, saying for such as small amount, I should just replace it. I explained, that it wasn't the cost, but the principal...could have been the TV..would she want me to pay 600+. i then explained that she should count her lucky starts that we pay the rent ON TIME, treat her apt as if it were ours. So many renters default, and its a nightmare to get them out. I think she got the mssg! Remember, you have very strong rights in Spain when renting. I think if you are in to your 2nd yr of renting the same prop, you legally can then stay on for 5 yrs. My advise, deduct from rent, and play hard ball


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## puertouk (Aug 22, 2010)

thrax said:


> First make certain your contract doesn't state somewhere that you are liable for repairs or that the landlord is liable. Really this is a bit of a grey area. For example, in our villa the washing machine packed up 3 months after we moved in and the landlord paid for the repair. But he told us that as we were using the machine if it broke down again we had to pay for it. It has broken down 6 times now. The first three times we paid the same guy who the landlord paid first time but after that we found a shop that sells washing machine spairs. So now I fix it. It broke down again yesterday (always the same problem - door catch snaps in half) so this time I'm going to suggest to the landlord that he supplies us with a new machine as this one clearly isn't fit for purpose.
> 
> I think the real issue is how well you get on with your landlord, or do you even see him? Is everything done via the agents in which case I suspect they don't want to fork out any money. I know other people have done exactly what you suggest and take off the amounts you have paid for repairs from the rent, but make sure you have all the receipts. There are some posters on here who are well up on rental laws and no doubt they will also have an input.
> 
> The skimmers on our pool packed up and now the pool is leaking. The landlord told us it is his problem and in October he will have the pool dug up and fully repaired which he will pay for. He has also told us we can decorate anywhere inside the villa if we want to, but painting outside is also our responsibility and has to be done once every two years.


If it's a similar washing mashine I've come across, try waiting 3 minutes before trying to open the washing machine door


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## livoshka (Sep 19, 2012)

Usually you will have to pay the repair man and your landlord will reimburse you. That's how my contract is. You are responsible if you've intentionally broke something though, obviously. You need to read over your contract


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