# obra menores



## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi, we live in Maella and want to repair a small casita. We are doing the work ourselves, but no'one in the Ayuntamiento understands English. Can someone please help me compose a letter saying this. We gave the Town Architect an invoice from the Local Builders Yard, but they have come back saying they want a builder quote although, we have said that we are doing the minor work ourselves! They do not seem to understand this...........

Heelp....


thx

Maria


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mimi855559 said:


> Hi, we live in Maella and want to repair a small casita. We are doing the work ourselves, but no'one in the Ayuntamiento understands English. Can someone please help me compose a letter saying this. We gave the Town Architect an invoice from the Local Builders Yard, but they have come back saying they want a builder quote although, we have said that we are doing the minor work ourselves! They do not seem to understand this...........
> 
> Heelp....
> 
> ...


 if you just want to say that you're doing the work yourselves, you can say _Hacemos las obras nosotros mismos_

really & truly you need to go back with an interpretor

from experience - no matter how much info you put in a letter, they will have more questions & you really need to understand whatever they are saying to you


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

The underlying reason will be so they get the correct amount of fee for the work you are undertaking. The ayuntamientos get (or at least used to) a large amount of their income from permissions. 

If the fee in your area is 4% of the cost , say a builder would charge 10,000 you pay 400. If you do it yourself and actually pay 3000 for materials then you would expect only to pay 120 euros. Play the game and get some quotes and pay the extra few hundred and still do the work yourself.

If there is a variety of work you are doing, I would recomend including anything highly visible (e.g. external) in the builders quote. You might forget to include tiling over existing floor tiles.

Oh and start learning Spanish. A little goes a long way.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mimi855559 said:


> Hi, we live in Maella and want to repair a small casita. We are doing the work ourselves, but no'one in the Ayuntamiento understands English. Can someone please help me compose a letter saying this. We gave the Town Architect an invoice from the Local Builders Yard, but they have come back saying they want a builder quote although, we have said that we are doing the minor work ourselves! They do not seem to understand this...........
> 
> Heelp....
> 
> ...



... the real problem is that you are not allowed to do it yourself!!!!

I tried this approach when I was reforming some flats that I own. I was told that it was illegal to do the work oneself! Now, I can't believe that, but ... we are in Spain.

How do you know that it is "obra menor" and not "major"? This is one thing that they will need to check out. They are more likely to believe a professional builder (SL, autonomo etc. or even an architect) than a DIY'er

Basically tou have to fill in what they call an "instancia". This is a basic form that is available over the counter at the town hall but it starts the process running. You then have to wait for the permission to be granted before work can commence. You pay the fee (normally 4% of the quote) plus any insurance deposit that they may ask for. Now you can start.

However, some (most) town halls are notoriously slow - this could take months.

Of course, the alternative is to do the work on the QT. But don't expect to get any habitation licences afterwards if you don't have them already.


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Maella obras menoras again*

Hi again,

can someone translate this for me please. It is from the Ayuntamiento regarding our obras menoras for the small casita on our land

thanks muchos, and yes I am taking spanish lessons......lol

Maria


que examinada la solicitud prentada para le ejecucion de las obras de referencia, y teniendo en cuenta que las obras a ejecutar se desarrollan en suelo no urbanizable, se manifiesta


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mimi855559 said:


> Hi again,
> 
> can someone translate this for me please. It is from the Ayuntamiento regarding our obras menoras for the small casita on our land
> 
> ...


I'm no expert but I think it says that your request has been refused on the grounds that you are trying to develop on 'rustic' land which is not allowed.

Let's see what others think.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I'm no expert but I think it says that your request has been refused on the grounds that you are trying to develop on 'rustic' land which is not allowed.
> 
> Let's see what others think.


yes, that's how I read it - but it feels like there's something missing at the end......


brain fried from an 800 word translation I just finished which turned out to be way more technical than I was led to believe


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi again, yes that is why I copied the piece of text, however there are two paragraphs more. But as they sent a PDF I cannot convert nor paste into this message so you can translate for me. Any ideas...?

thanks muchos for help, much appreciated..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mimi855559 said:


> Hi again, yes that is why I copied the piece of text, however there are two paragraphs more. But as they sent a PDF I cannot convert nor paste into this message so you can translate for me. Any ideas...?
> 
> thanks muchos for help, much appreciated..


probably just need the next few words.....


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Se tendra que aportar documentacion fotografica del estado actual de al edificacion
Se debera aporte presupuesto real de las obras a ejecutar, firmado por empresa o profesional autorizado


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mimi855559 said:


> Se tendra que aportar documentacion fotografica del estado actual de al edificacion
> Se debera aporte presupuesto real de las obras a ejecutar, firmado por empresa o profesional autorizado


they want photos of the current state of the building & a proper quote for the works from a professional


you really need to do as we suggested before & go to the planning office with an interpretor - far better than notes/e-mails/pdfs flying back & forth

especially since the last snippet you gave us says that it's built on non-urbanisable land.....

(I'm not sure that's actually a word in English  )


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks for all your help, at least it indicates that we will be able to repair the casita? We were told by the estate agent when we bought the land that we could build, however as the little casita was pretty we decided not to spoil the views and opted to repair it. We went to the ayuntamiento and put in the necessary paperwork and came back to Jersey. Then we received the letter you have kindly translated...bit difficult to sort at this distance. May I ask you one further thing? Inspite of what they have said about rustic land, do you think they may let us repair the casita as they have asked for a builders quote?

thanks for all

Maria


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mimi855559 said:


> Thanks for all your help, at least it indicates that we will be able to repair the casita? We were told by the estate agent when we bought the land that we could build, however as the little casita was pretty we decided not to spoil the views and opted to repair it. We went to the ayuntamiento and put in the necessary paperwork and came back to Jersey. Then we received the letter you have kindly translated...bit difficult to sort at this distance. May I ask you one further thing? Inspite of what they have said about rustic land, do you think they may let us repair the casita as they have asked for a builders quote?
> 
> thanks for all
> 
> Maria


I don't honestly think it indicates that you can do that at all.... although they might let you

the _no urbanizable_ bit means that you can't build there - so it's possible that there's no planning permission for the casita in the first place.... & that's why they want photos

they might grant that retrospectively - but of course you'd have to pay for a licence

I hope I'm wrong........


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

the little casita is very very old.......but in fairly good repair. Just needs roof and door repairing. On the escrituria, it is described as a 'casita'...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mimi855559 said:


> the little casita is very very old.......but in fairly good repair. Just needs roof and door repairing. On the escrituria, it is described as a 'casita'...


if it's on the escritura then, you should be fine


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## Pico (Oct 30, 2012)

mimi855559 said:


> Se tendra que aportar documentacion fotografica del estado actual de al edificacion
> Se debera aporte presupuesto real de las obras a ejecutar, firmado por empresa o profesional autorizado


Now it sort of fits.... and it isn't THAT BAD!

So the first part read "that taking into account this is non urbanisable land" its required that......

One must bring photographic documentation of the current state of the building.
You must show a real cost of the works to be done, signed by a business or authorised professional 

So whilst there is clearly a lot more to be shown, this implies from what has been written that they may be a) unaware of a buliding there! b) a professional estimate will help them calculate the tax.
If your "casita" MATCHES the sizes on the escritura, you should have no problem. If not, well you can tackle that later! Remember after 4 years without being found out... its their problem...well in theory!

If you have the latest version of Adobe Acrobat (free from Adobe.com) it now has the facility to create a word document from it. Or I think you can upload as attachement on here also?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

A ' casita' shown on the escritura would indicate that it was allowed originally as a 'nave'; A type of building that is constructed to allow a person/s to work on the land & have somewhere to shelter, eat,sleep,etc. 
Normally they have somewhere to eat, sleep & cook & toilet facilities. You are not meant to live in them permanently but many do . Most , owned by Spaniards , get extended hugely & are usually used as weekend homes. 
In the region you are in ,Aragon (?), it would appear that rebuilding , extensions , permanent living & reclassification are normally allowed as we had a poster on here a while back who explained what was allowed.


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

thanks everyone for the information and translations. I am feeling a bit more confident now. Yes it is apparent that the casita was used in the past for the farmer to stay in, as we have unearthed a huge pot/almost intact, buried in the ground with a wooden lintel around it which we suspect may have been a rudimentary loo. Also we have taken out two tonnes of very old dry manure on one side behind a smallish inside wall, which was evidently where he kept his little burro.....aaahhh. We want to renovate the little casita as a holiday home, so hopefully the town architect will not stand in our way.......The farmer who we bought the land off comes and looks after the almond groves, 13 terraces of them entirely without charge, of course we let him take most of the almonds inspite of his protests. The people in Maella are wonderful and so welcoming, but no'one and I mean no'one speaks English! 

Thanks again amigos for the info...

Maria


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## welldoneson (May 4, 2013)

Hi Maria,

Did you get your planning sorted in the end? We used the architect in Caspe. Her name is 'Trinidad Lapuerta Guiral...she does not speak english but I found google translate was suffiicent to get my point across and it translates her emails enough to understand what she has said. We got out planning permission for an obres majores to re-roof, put in windows, door and pagoda area along with a septic tank. We have started the build and hope to finish later this year. Drop me a line, we are just down the track from you it seems.

Regards,
Joe.


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi Joe,

where exactly are you? We are at end of the turning for Lo Solobra, about five kms around the mountain and into our Valley, although I am not there at present. What are your plans? Are you living on your land yet? 

M


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

Sorry and yes we did get permission to repair the little casita....it is very pretty now


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## welldoneson (May 4, 2013)

Hi Maria,

Our place is past the turnings for 'val de las eras' and 'lo solobra' and comes off the main track about 5km from town to the left into our valley. From the sounds of it we are quite close neighbours. 

We plan to use the place as a holiday home but for now we are still camping when we go out. We both work in the UK and don't plan to go to live there just yet. Are you going to move out there on a permanent basis?

Have you managed to get a habitation certificate for your place? That will be the next step for us once the build is finished hopefully later this year so any advice you can offer would be gratefully received. 

My wife and I are going out in three weeks for a few days over half term. If you are out then it would be great to get together for a drink and chat.

All the best,
Joe.


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## CaraGilligan (Jul 22, 2013)

Hi Everyone, Please could either Welldoneson or Mimi855559 pm me ..... I can't figure out how to do it!!!! Thanks


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CaraGilligan said:


> Hi Everyone, Please could either Welldoneson or Mimi855559 pm me ..... I can't figure out how to do it!!!! Thanks


the Private Message facility is available to regular posters

join in a few of the other threads, ask some questions, give some advice

you'll be surprised how quickly you'll be able to PM


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## welldoneson (May 4, 2013)

CaraGilligan said:


> Hi Everyone, Please could either Welldoneson or Mimi855559 pm me ..... I can't figure out how to do it!!!! Thanks


Hi CaraGilligan,
It is not possible to pm you or for you to pm until you have used the forum for a little while. Think you need 5 or so posts to get access to pm. How can I help?


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## DaveTheWatch (Jul 4, 2013)

mimi855559 said:


> Hi again,
> 
> can someone translate this for me please. It is from the Ayuntamiento regarding our obras menoras for the small casita on our land
> 
> ...


Why not use google translate !


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

A really intelligent suggestion!


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## CaraGilligan (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks !


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## CaraGilligan (Jul 22, 2013)

welldoneson said:


> Hi CaraGilligan,
> It is not possible to pm you or for you to pm until you have used the forum for a little while. Think you need 5 or so posts to get access to pm. How can I help?


Aha thank you. I really wanted to get as much info as I can as I would like to make an offer on a small ruin near Maella. I think my main worry is that I won't be able to get a) permission to renovate and b) once its finished permission to live in it (albeit a long way in the future and at present I just want a holiday home). So really anything you can tell me would be really helpful. Thanks in advance


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

CaraGilligan said:


> Aha thank you. I really wanted to get as much info as I can as I would like to make an offer on a small ruin near Maella. I think my main worry is that I won't be able to get a) permission to renovate and b) once its finished permission to live in it (albeit a long way in the future and at present I just want a holiday home). So really anything you can tell me would be really helpful. Thanks in advance


Hi Cara, do not be too concerned, the Ayuntamento, are helpfull, although apart from one guy and he speaks little English, no'one else does! But they will help you through the process.. I can put you in touch with someone who will help. Who is your Agent?


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## CaraGilligan (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks that's very helpful. I am hoping to buy through Finca Casa Aragon ...


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## welldoneson (May 4, 2013)

CaraGilligan said:


> Aha thank you. I really wanted to get as much info as I can as I would like to make an offer on a small ruin near Maella. I think my main worry is that I won't be able to get a) permission to renovate and b) once its finished permission to live in it (albeit a long way in the future and at present I just want a holiday home). So really anything you can tell me would be really helpful. Thanks in advance


Hi Cara,

The main thing that may affect you is the size of the land. My understanding is that you need 1.5 hectares to legally get permission to renovate/build on any rustic land although I have not had this checked out by a solicitor. 

We got a full project license to renovate our casa which cost us about 1300 euros but most people in the area do renovations with only a minor works license which is much cheaper (you are talking 200-300 euros I think).

Our thinking is that as the main work included a new roof and new windows, which counts as structural work, we wanted to be sure to have done it all by the book. If you decide to go this route let me know and I will send you the name of the local architect that we used. 

As for getting permission to live on the land this is something that I am still investigating. I hope that having been granted a building permit we will get the habitation certificate once the work is complete but I have not yet met anyone who has done this and has the certificate to show. I would not let it concern you however as lots of people live on the campo without permission and it seems that nothing is done to stop them. The builder I met in Maella who has done all the work on our casa has lived on his land for 5 years with no problems. 


Check out my other threads on here, one of them links to another forum that has a lot of information that I have posted and others have given advice on also.

Hope it all goes well for you, let us know when you plan to go out and we can meet for a drink.

Best wishes,
Joe.


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## CaraGilligan (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks that's really helpful. I will keep in touch and let you know how I get on. Hoping to get back to Spain in September .....


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## DaveTheWatch (Jul 4, 2013)

mimi855559 said:


> A really intelligent suggestion!


No not really just wasted wit !


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## mimi855559 (Jun 16, 2012)

DaveTheWatch said:


> No not really just wasted wit !


u said it!


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