# How long can an expatriate visit The US after renunication?



## darie1b

My wife expatriated last year in November. As I prepare her US exit Tax forms that she has to fill in, there was a paragraph about not being able to stay in the USA for more than 30 days without tax consequences. It is right after the explanations of Covered Expatriats, those who have over 2 million in dollars or have salaries over 140,000$, which we are not. 

For us who are just simple Canadians who are not rich and have expatriated, how many days are we allowed to visit the USA in any given year? I hope someone can help us with this. Thank you in advance.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Tax consequences are a separate issue from admissibility. You may be granted entry into the United States but then, consequently, owe taxes. That depends on your particular circumstances. And there are both federal and potential state/local consequences. For example, if you travel to New York State for any business purpose, including simply attending a company educational session, you're generally supposed to pay New York State income tax for the portion of your calendar year that you're visiting New York. It doesn't matter how much you earn. The U.S. and New York State are not alone in taxing visitors in certain circumstances. I think Japan operates similarly to New York State in terms of tax rules, to pick another example. (Yes, I'm aware that many people don't know about these tax liabilities, but legally they're real.)

Leaving taxes aside, Canadian citizens entering the U.S. for tourism or for other non-employment short stay purposes are granted permission to stay for up to six months. Both admission and the permitted length of stay are discretionary, at the pleasure (or not) of the particular CBP officer and his/her superiors. *Non-U.S. citizens are never guaranteed admission to the United States.* Past discretionary admissions (and lengths of stay) can change at any time.

You should carry your CLN with you in case the CBP officer wants to see it.

If guaranteed admission into the United States is important to you (or to someone else who wants to see you), then the only option is maintaining documented U.S. citizenship. If you are not prepared for the distinct possibility of never being able to set foot in the Unites States, then you probably should not renounce U.S. citizenship.


----------



## Nononymous

BBCWatcher said:


> For example, if you travel to New York State for any business purpose, including simply attending a company educational session, you're generally supposed to pay New York State income tax for the portion of your calendar year that you're visiting New York. It doesn't matter how much you earn.


I wonder what the percentage compliance on this one is? Less than 0.00001 percent I'd think.


----------



## darie1b

Still we are not into business and only like to explore and was wondering if we were permitted to do so in the States, now that my wife is an ex-expatriate. Are we limited to 30 days?


----------



## Pacifica

There’s a good article about this, "Tax Classification of Expatriates Returning to United States for Visits" by Phil Hodgen. He lays things out quite clearly in point form.

Tax classification of expatriates returning to United States for visits – Hodgen Law

If I’m reading it correctly, it looks pretty good for post-2008 people, that you have the 183 day rule, same as any alien.

_“In other words, expatriates and covered expatriates alike who have an expatriation date of June 18, 2008 or later will not have to worry about the Section 877(g)(1) “be in the USA more than 30 days and you’re a U.S. taxpayer again” rule, because that rule doesn’t apply to them at all.”_


----------



## maz57

Just to add to what others have said, as a Canadian you are generally allowed up to six months (182 days) per year. This is up to the particular border agent; he/she may allow less. This 182 days total may be continuous, or it may be cumulative (i.e. several shorter trips). It is unclear if this is a calendar year (resets every January 1) or any 12 month period. That, too, may be up to the discretion of the particular agent you are dealing with. Practically speaking it would be unwise to push it up to the exact number of days allowed. (What if the car breaks down or a flight is cancelled, etc.)

But this only addresses how long you are legally entitled to stay in the US. There is another consideration, namely the risk of possibly becoming a US tax resident once again. (Though no one dares say it, that is probably the reason for expatriating in the first place.) The application of the tax rules mean, practically speaking, over a multiple year period one can only stay for 120 days in each of those years. The Hodgen website gives a pretty good explanation how this all works. 

Up 'til now, it has been pretty hard for the USG to keep track of how long someone spent in the country. They, of course, knew when you entered, but had no way of telling when you left. Apparently in 2014 a new system will be added which will give US customs access to the entry records on the Canadian side. (And visa-versa.) So now both governments will know exactly how long you stay where.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Yes, the important point is that immigration and tax liabilities (if any) are very separate issues, so it's best not to conflate them.

Yes, Nononymous, I'm sure a lot of people don't pay New York State income tax (and other income tax) legally owed.


----------



## darie1b

Wow. Thank you so much for your help with this. You answered my question.


----------

