# Retirement Income In Italy



## 0151

Why is the required amount of 'income' so ridiculously high, to retire in Italy?
31,000 Euros is more than the average working income for Abruzzo. Their state pension is similar to the UK.

I have travelled a lot, lived and renovated properties abroad. I will have no rent or mortgage, will not be running a car, and know people who live happily in Abruzzo on a lot less.

I am frustrated someone thinks everyone needs lots of money for a good life. I could easily live well in Abruzzo on the UK state pension. 

Is there anyway around this crazy requirement to get permission to stay long term?
Thank you
Jennifer.


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## NickZ

It's a Schengen zone wide limit. It's nothing to do with what you need. The level set so there is little chance you'll become a burden on the state or want to work. It's still low enough that there is some risk.

31K€ is more than most people need but it's also low enough that someone without savings can easily find themselves in trouble. All it takes is one major appliance breaking and people can be at risk.

31k after tax and health care is roughly 1500 a month. Not exactly a high amount.


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## 0151

Hi,
thank you for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time.
I understand there are requirements for countries within the EU plus, and that they vary within countries.
If you don't need that much, why are people restricted from retiring there if they don't have it?
If I'm retired, why would I want to work?
The amount is only a risk for people who are extravagant, run a car, want to continue travelling, have lots of electronics, want a luxury life not a quality one.
I will have savings, enough to replace an appliance or whatever needs funding after a few years, as it will all be brand new. Most maintenance work, as a practical person with experience, I will do myself. 
I would not be paying tax as I will have only a state pension. Having had to use it with a friend I know how low the health costs are for retired people of any nationality, even after Brexit. 
By the time I get there I would have approximately £800 a month. Easily enough to cover electricity, water, commune tax, waste and rubbish, internet, mobile for emergencies only. And live like a queen on delicious fresh fruit, vegetables, and my own home made pasta.
Going back to my original question. The 31K is a ridiculous, judgemental, amount. Expecting expats to need to live very differently from Italians.
If you're going to do that, why move to Italy in the first place.
Sorry. I'm angry. Can anyone suggest a solution?
Thank you,
Jennifer.


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## *Sunshine*

0151 said:


> By the time I get there I would have approximately £800 a month. Easily enough to cover electricity, water, commune tax, waste and rubbish, internet, mobile for emergencies only. And live like a queen on delicious fresh fruit, vegetables, and my own home made pasta.


800 £ / month is only a little over 900 €. If the exchange swings, it would be even less. I don't think you have any chance of convincing the authorities to make an exception. 

Have you considered moving to Ireland for a few years and then applying for Irish citizenship? You'll have to research if you'll meet the financial requirements.


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## Bevdeforges

Every country in Schengen and in the EU has its requirements for a visa that covers retirees. And it varies quite a bit from one country to the next. It really isn't about you or what you feel you can or can't live on. You may want to take a look at the UK's requirements for a non-working visa for someone of retirement age. (There is no "retirement visa" per se for the UK.)

Perhaps you should consider someplace with lower requirements for your "financial resources" - like Spain, Greece or possibly France, all fairly popular with Brits looking to retire "to Europe" now that Brexit has finally happened.


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## NickZ

If you follow forums like this you'll sooner or later run into people that had to go home. Often it's either directly or indirectly related to money.

The above mentioned exchange rate changing and breaking a budget.

The lack of funds making it hard to live the movie lifestyle they expected. It's fine to say you just want to stay all winter watching the fire. But that's the exception. Very few people are willing to accept that sort of lifestyle.

You mention living like an Italian. Worse case I could take the train/bus to family and sleep on the couch. Literally living on nothing but air. Most Italians have some sort of support system. Plenty of low income Italians end up using it. Not to mention the actual formal aid that they can access.


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## 0151

Thanks Sunshine, for your suggestion.
I know how difficult the UK requirements are. I currently live in Scotland and hope we will soon be an independent country that can re-join the EU. That would be the ideal solution. 
I have lived in both France and Spain and have considered Greece, but its not a sunshine holiday place I'm looking for. Italian hillside towns have so much character, are cooler though still sunny, and places in town in Spain and France tend to be more expensive. 
I understand completely what Nick says about expectations. I saw people who thought they could be on holiday all year, or that work would somehow materialise. Or the classic, I can always run a gite.
I am not unrealistic. Sitting in is not something I would do. Why would you when in a beautiful town, surrounded by rolling countryside, with long distance buses costing very little?
I get that many Italians live close to the breadline. I don't romanticise this. But I have always lived on a small budget, will have more than many, particularly in Abruzzo. I budget well and don't want luxuries.
I'm not worried about my survival and know I won't be able to change the rules. I just hoped someone had experience that might help me come up with a solution.
Thanks for your replies, keep them coming please.
Jennifer.


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## barnsleyian

Hello all We are having the same problems we own a house and 8 acres of olive grove in Ostuni Puglia where it is relatively cheep to live. We own the house and land outright and have no costs to pay except the land taxes. Now we want to retire but have been told our savings won't go towards the income we need. Plus because we are a same sex married couple we are not recognized under Italian law so we have been told we need to apply as singles. Pushing the 38000 euro per married couple to 64000 euro.

We had intended to farm the land, grow food, have solar, sink a well. So we would be 80% off grid. Our savings far outmatch the 64000 euro but we have as said been told it doesn't count.

We hoped to spend our retirement paying into the Italian system but looks like we may have to sell

Ian


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## *Sunshine*

Since you have sufficient savings, look into Irish citizenship requirements. Once one of you obtain an EU citizenship, Italy can't discriminate against you for being a same sex couple.


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## barnsleyian

*Sunshine* said:


> Since you have sufficient savings, look into Irish citizenship requirements. Once one of you obtain an EU citizenship, Italy can't discriminate against you for being a same sex couple.


I have heavily invested into the home etc in Puglia its a dream home and to go to Ireland first, i'd need to sell the Italy dream and it won't ever be the same. Still raw as yet only found this out from our lawyer yesterday. And unfortunately they can discriminate we have had this already, we had to to buy the home and the land a single people as our marriage is not recognized under Italian law


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## barnsleyian

NickZ said:


> It's a Schengen zone wide limit. It's nothing to do with what you need. The level set so there is little chance you'll become a burden on the state or want to work. It's still low enough that there is some risk.
> 
> 31K€ is more than most people need but it's also low enough that someone without savings can easily find themselves in trouble. All it takes is one major appliance breaking and people can be at risk.
> 
> 31k after tax and health care is roughly 1500 a month. Not exactly a high amount.


But the amount does not take in to account any bills paid or not

we have a 2 bed roomed house in a 8 acre field, we have a well for water and solar panels all paid for. We intend to grow as much food as possible also to lower bills.

We are a mile form the city so walk often to town.

but we will buy a small car, and food.... That's all everything else is paid for 

so 32,000 each is far too much. accepted if we lived and rented in Rome its a different matter


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## ALKB

barnsleyian said:


> But the amount does not take in to account any bills paid or not
> 
> we have a 2 bed roomed house in a 8 acre field, we have a well for water and solar panels all paid for. We intend to grow as much food as possible also to lower bills.
> 
> We are a mile form the city so walk often to town.
> 
> but we will buy a small car, and food.... That's all everything else is paid for
> 
> so 32,000 each is far too much. accepted if we lived and rented in Rome its a different matter


After a lifetime of freedom of movement, which would allow you to do all of what you have planned, it is indeed harsh to be dealing with immigration laws now.

Unfortunately, the argument that you won´t need much and won´t spend much is, if anything, a red flag rather than an incentive to give you a residence permit. Immigration involves convincing the country where you want to live that you won´t be a burden or potentially trouble but rather that you will bring something that will be advantageous to the country - that is usually a needed skill, jobs for locals when opening a business, or a lot of investment in the local economy.

Many countries do not even have a retirement visa.

I hope it will work out for you.

When dealing with the Embassy and/or local authorities, you may want to have a detailed answer as to what will happen when you get to the age when growing your own food and walking longer distances will become difficult or impossible.


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## Lynn R

Bevdeforges said:


> Every country in Schengen and in the EU has its requirements for a visa that covers retirees. And it varies quite a bit from one country to the next. It really isn't about you or what you feel you can or can't live on. You may want to take a look at the UK's requirements for a non-working visa for someone of retirement age. (There is no "retirement visa" per se for the UK.)
> 
> Perhaps you should consider someplace with lower requirements for your "financial resources" - like Spain, Greece or possibly France, all fairly popular with Brits looking to retire "to Europe" now that Brexit has finally happened.


Spain's income requirements for the non lucrative visa are not much lower than Italy's - for this year it is €27,792 for an individual and approx €6,500 for each additional family member. This is 4 x IPREM and that amount is likely to rise quite a bit next year when it is adjusted in line with inflation (currently over 10% in Spain).

The Southern European country with the lowest income requirement is Portugal, their D7 passive income visa requirement is €8,640 per year currently, the equivalent of the Portugese national minimum wage.


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## barnsleyian

ALKB said:


> After a lifetime of freedom of movement, which would allow you to do all of what you have planned, it is indeed harsh to be dealing with immigration laws now.
> 
> Unfortunately, the argument that you won´t need much and won´t spend much is, if anything, a red flag rather than an incentive to give you a residence permit. Immigration involves convincing the country where you want to live that you won´t be a burden or potentially trouble but rather that you will bring something that will be advantageous to the country - that is usually a needed skill, jobs for locals when opening a business, or a lot of investment in the local economy.
> 
> Many countries do not even have a retirement visa.
> 
> I hope it will work out for you.
> 
> When dealing with the Embassy and/or local authorities, you may want to have a detailed answer as to what will happen when you get to the age when growing your own food and walking longer distances will become difficult or impossible.



it won't work out...

we have instructed the local estate agent to listed the house and will with draw the 173,000 euro investment back out and take it else where. We have plenty to offer we shop local use Italian tradesmen, and really value the area of Ostuni.

I would have opened a business we have 110 ancient olive trees that need care and attention, the land and views are spectacular for Eco-green lodge site to bring revenue to the town, shops and locals that we know with restaurants. It has been a hard 4 years from buying to where we are now, when we bought there was freedom of movment after we had renovated you couldn't 

unfortunately a forever home was what we wanted, not a holiday home.

I am only 54 I have plenty to give, pity it won't be to Italy or any other EU area.


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## barnsleyian

Lynn R said:


> Spain's income requirements for the non lucrative visa are not much lower than Italy's - for this year it is €27,792 for an individual and approx €6,500 for each additional family member. This is 4 x IPREM and that amount is likely to rise quite a bit next year when it is adjusted in line with inflation (currently over 10% in Spain).
> 
> The Southern European country with the lowest income requirement is Portugal, their D7 passive income visa requirement is €8,640 per year currently, the equivalent of the Portugese national minimum wage.



thanks but not looking to be a Brit retiring abroad


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## ALKB

barnsleyian said:


> I would have opened a business we have 110 ancient olive trees that need care and attention, the land and views are spectacular for Eco-green lodge site to bring revenue to the town, shops and locals that we know with restaurants.


So, did you check the requirements for a visa to open a business?


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## modicasa

As you are 54 you could ask for a self employed visa to open a business. Obviously you would have to pay into the Italian system - but it is less onerous than the ER visa. It does also depend if you want to run a campsite.....


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## NickZ

I can't imagine 110 trees being considered a business. The lodge? That doesn't sound like a year round business either.


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## Lynn R

barnsleyian said:


> thanks but not looking to be a Brit retiring abroad


The information offered wasn't in response to your post, but for the OP who indicated that she would be living on a UK state pension.

But in post #8 you did say "Now we want to retire ".


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## 0151

People are trying to find ways to live in a beautiful country and have, or will, contribute to it financially and socially in many different ways.
Small businesses are the lifeblood of many European countries and Brits are renowned for their entrepreneurship. From my experience only thwarted by restrictive systems. 
Contributors to this discussion seem to be, as I am, intelligent, aware, and culturally sophisticated. Not burdensome cripples, physically and emotionally, as they are being portrayed, potentially.
Why so negative Nick?
Would you be whiling to explain your own situation?
Jennifer


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## 0151

Sorry, so intelligent I can't spell willing!


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## Bevdeforges

0151 said:


> People are trying to find ways to live in a beautiful country and have, or will, contribute to it financially and socially in many different ways.
> Small businesses are the lifeblood of many European countries and Brits are renowned for their entrepreneurship. From my experience only thwarted by restrictive systems.


No one (not even the Italians) is disputing this. The trouble is that this is a very "anglo-saxon" view of things. Most European countries are not particularly interested in bringing in "outsiders" (i.e. foreigners) to live and work in their country - no matter how financially or socially they feel they can "contribute" to the place. Some country cultures aren't particularly impressed by "entrepreneurship" or many of the standard UK/US/other anglophone countries values. They have their own.

Multi-culturalism is just not a European value. Outsiders who wish to come live in a country are expected to appreciate and conform to the national culture. Think "we are the Borg, you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."


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## NickZ

The vast majority of small businesses fail. That's not being negative that's just being realistic. I'm too lazy to look for the Italian numbers but the rule of thumb in North America was that the majority of small businesses failed within three years. That's not an exaggeration. That includes many well funded businesses. 

But reality is the income level required isn't that high if you're suggesting people want to contribute.

Contribute doesn't mean buying a house and taking it off the market so a young Italian family can't. It doesn't mean spending virtually no money. Paying no local taxes.


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## Bevdeforges

It also doesn't mean spending down your capital. Even if it is "several times" the annual income requirement, once you come to the end of that money, you risk becoming a ward of the state. Say you have ten times the state mandated income amount. All that means is that you could potentially remain for 10 years, but then you'd be broke. No one wants to see you run through your nest egg like that.


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## NickZ

There is also a common thread not just in this sub forum but I think most of them. The people that give up and go home tend to

1) Expect the country to change for them

2) Have little in the ways of buffers to protect them.

This is going to be a horrific winter. We're literally going to have people freeze to death because they can't heat their homes. To a certain extent that always happened. It'll be worse this year.

Food prices are up. Energy prices are up.


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## Lynn R

I agree with you that it would be possible for you to live the kind of life you want in Italy on your state pension. We did much the same when we came to Spain 16 years ago, when I was 50. We gave up our jobs and had no pension income coming in for the first 8 years - in our first year we lived on a total of 7k sterling for two of us (deliberately tried to spend as little as possible just to see if it could be done). We had no car (and still don't, 16 years later), no internet in the home (we used the free service at the local library) and had no air conditioning. We owned a house outright which we'd bought nearly 4 years earlier, just used as a holiday home until we were in a position to move permanently. However, I would not have assumed that we would be able to live on that level of income indefinitely. For example, what would happen when we are older if we should need care, either in the home or residential, and would not be eligible for any state help with the costs? Now, with all our pensions in payment, we would be able to satisfy the Spanish income requirements to retire here, but could not do what we did in 2006.

What has changed is Brexit. Now that the British are third country citizens, it is irrelevant how little any of us think we could live on. We are subject to the same immigration rules as citizens of any other non EU country, so no matter how unreasonable or unfair you feel the income requirements are, they are not going to change.

Countries want people who will make a financial contribution in terms of paying income tax as well as a decent amount of indirect taxes in the form of VAT on purchases, as well as employing local people to provide services. What they don't want or need is people who pay little or no tax because their income isn't high enough, and live a near subsistence lifestyle so they are not spending much in the local economy.


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## 0151

I find this rather a generalisation.
In 10 years in the French countryside I found none of these attitudes. Neighbours and friends were very welcoming and appreciated that my daughter and I contributed a lot. From employing trades, working as translator to businesses, the school, the restaurants, the shops etc. The only 'outsiders' they didn't want were Parisians. They loved me renovating old properties to preserve them, though you're right, they thought I was mad.
I never want to be allied with the USA who's values I find abhorrent. We had, and have, the same values as the French and other Europeans, on family, food, culture, lifestyle. I happily chose to live like them. 
People living off savings, if they are not enormous, of course will run out. As a retired person I would still be spending as the UK state pension is not 'subsistence' level. With a property owned and renovated, £200 a week is a fortune in Abruzzo. I never could get my head around how Brits managed to spend so much money on nothing important.


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## Lynn R

0151 said:


> I find this rather a generalisation.
> In 10 years in the French countryside I found none of these attitudes. Neighbours and friends were very welcoming and appreciated that my daughter and I contributed a lot. From employing trades, working as translator to businesses, the school, the restaurants, the shops etc. The only 'outsiders' they didn't want were Parisians. They loved me renovating old properties to preserve them, though you're right, they thought I was mad.
> I never want to be allied with the USA who's values I find abhorrent. We had, and have, the same values as the French and other Europeans, on family, food, culture, lifestyle. I happily chose to live like them.
> People living off savings, if they are not enormous, of course will run out. As a retired person I would still be spending as the UK state pension is not 'subsistence' level. With a property owned and renovated, £200 a week is a fortune in Abruzzo. I never could get my head around how Brits managed to spend so much money on nothing important.


But immigration rules are not made by neighbours and friends, on a case by case basis. They are made by Governments. Whether you want to be allied with the USA is neither here nor there - for Italian immigration purposes you are now a third country citizen and therefore subject to the same immigration regime as any US (or Australian, Canadian, Chinese etc. citizen).


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## Bevdeforges

Lynn has a very valid point. Especially since the EU got going, there is a principle that says that while the individual member countries can control their own immigration policies, they are not allowed to discriminate against people based on their nationality (be it EU nationality or non-EU nationality). It wasn't always the case in some countries that are now part of the EU. And there are a few EU countries that are still working some of the kinks out of their immigration systems. But going from EU national to non-EU national is what makes the huge difference. And they have to treat all non-EU nationals pretty much alike.


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## 0151

I get all this. Brexit has damaged a lot for many people, and not achieved a lot for Britain in my opinion.
Of course its governments that decide on immigration policy, but I was reacting to comments about southern Europeans being completely different in attitude to 'Anglo Saxons', which I have never thought they are. I'm talking about the people who you end up living around, and in my long experience in Europe, they are on the whole welcoming and appreciative of anyone who wants to fit in, speak their language etc.
Although, as I said, I would have plenty to help support a local economy, contribution is not just financial.
People are going to die in the UK this winter for lack of food and money to keep their homes warm. Statistics on small businesses failing are awful around the world. We don't live in a great world in many ways. And, back to the principle of the discussion, people like barnsleyian and I are having to try and find a way round the crazy requirements that are not based on the reality of how people like us actually live.


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## Bevdeforges

0151 said:


> I'm talking about the people who you end up living around, and in my long experience in Europe, they are on the whole welcoming and appreciative of anyone who wants to fit in, speak their language etc.


No one is saying that they aren't. But the people who are your friends and neighbors in a "foreign" country aren't the ones who make the immigration laws. I lived for a time in the UK and I know that the people who lived around me there were very welcoming - but the immigration laws are there for a reason. Brexit was passed and implemented for a reason. And those reasons don't always take the people (the "workers, peasants and soldiers") into account. 

One of the hardest things to deal with in expatriating yourself is learning that none of the roadblocks and obfuscations you run up against are personal. They are governmental in nature - and governments don't usually reflect the nature of the folks you'll meet in those countries. (Heaven help us if Brits in general were judged by the antics of their current government!).


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