# Elective Residence Visa



## mrsellis99

I'm a US citizen and would like to know how long does it take to get this type of visa processed (and approved or granted), assuming I have all the documents required? Also, one of the requirements is that one must have a place of residence, either owned or rented. I do plan on buying a property, but I don't know how long that would take. Is it wiser to find a rental first? If anybody has any experience with this type of visa, I would love to hear your story or any advice you may have regarding moving to Italy permanently.


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## NickZ

No idea on the visa. First you'd need an appointment and that will depend on how long the line is at your local consulate.

MUCH much smarter to rent in an area for awhile before buying. Come over off season. Spend some time living like you expect to post move and then decide if you want to stay in that area or stay at all.


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## PauloPievese

mrsellis99 said:


> ... how long does it take to get this type of visa processed (and approved or granted)....


For me, six weeks until my appointment in Miami. Three weeks more for my rejection letter. No idea how long it takes for an approval. 

Follow Nick's good advice on renting before buying. I had a kick-out clause added to my rental agreement such that the lease was void if I were rejected although they got to keep the deposit and months of rent while I waited to be rejected. Otherwise I would have been on the hook for six months of rent if I understand Italian rental law correctly. 

The rental agency also kept their month of rent equivalent. Despite this charge I strongly suggest renting via an agency; even more scammers in Italy than in USA.

Also, in terms of renting, I was advised on various forums that the immigration authorities would not look kindly on a _transitorio_, a temporary lease.

Note that in addition to the residence requirements you will also have to document current healthcare coverage in Italy. Current. In advance. Before applying. Again an expense if you're rejected.

:flypig:


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## mrsellis99

*Thank you*



NickZ said:


> No idea on the visa. First you'd need an appointment and that will depend on how long the line is at your local consulate.
> 
> MUCH much smarter to rent in an area for awhile before buying. Come over off season. Spend some time living like you expect to post move and then decide if you want to stay in that area or stay at all.


Thank you so much for the very sound advice. I am definitely leaning towards renting and spending some time in the area.


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## mrsellis99

*Thanks!*



PauloPievese said:


> For me, six weeks until my appointment in Miami. Three weeks more for my rejection letter. No idea how long it takes for an approval.
> 
> Follow Nick's good advice on renting before buying. I had a kick-out clause added to my rental agreement such that the lease was void if I were rejected although they got to keep the deposit and months of rent while I waited to be rejected. Otherwise I would have been on the hook for six months of rent if I understand Italian rental law correctly.
> 
> The rental agency also kept their month of rent equivalent. Despite this charge I strongly suggest renting via an agency; even more scammers in Italy than in USA.
> 
> Also, in terms of renting, I was advised on various forums that the immigration authorities would not look kindly on a _transitorio_, a temporary lease.
> 
> Note that in addition to the residence requirements you will also have to document current healthcare coverage in Italy. Current. In advance. Before applying. Again an expense if you're rejected.
> 
> :flypig:


Wow, never even occured to me to add a kick-out clause. Thank you for the heads up. May I ask, how you went about looking for a rental agency? I'm not moving to a big major city, so looking online is a challenge. Sounds like I need to be prepared to lose some money, in case of rejection. Lots of good info, thanks so much PauloP!


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## Bevdeforges

Finding a rental agency, even in a small town, should be no problem. But make sure you understand how rental agencies work in Italy, and it would be best if you speak enough Italian to be able to represent yourself. Trying to find an "English speaking" rental agent (or any other profession) outside a large city can be a real frustrating experience.


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## mrsellis99

*Thank you!*



Bevdeforges said:


> Finding a rental agency, even in a small town, should be no problem. But make sure you understand how rental agencies work in Italy, and it would be best if you speak enough Italian to be able to represent yourself. Trying to find an "English speaking" rental agent (or any other profession) outside a large city can be a real frustrating experience.


Good to know! Thank you so much!


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## PauloPievese

*Unauthoritative Thoughts*



mrsellis99 said:


> how you went about looking for a rental agency?!


I was trying to move to a small town in Umbria. Despite this there was an agency specializing in that town and the nearby area. Were it I and I could not be physically present, I would use one of the large search engines such as immobiliare.it or casa.it searching for your town or the nearest larger town. Look for one or two agencies that are more represented, remembering to look for _affitto _(rent) not _vendita _(sale); some agencies do not handle rentals. You might then use Google Streetview to see if the agency's address is a business. Something I just did to see if it would work was to use Google Maps to locate the town and then to search for "real estate agents" (in English); my agency was found.

Yes, it is always better to speak Italian. It is however my experience that everyone doing business in Italy is desperately trying to learn English. In my case the principals and I fumbled back and forth until a property was identified and then they called in a translator to both assure that we were really on the same page and then to translate documents. 

I'm trying to remember the details of the process. Having an Italian back account seemed like a good idea except without a residence permit, a permisso di soggiorno, PdS, the fees are very high. To open a bank account you need the equivalent of a social security number (the name of which I forget); easy to get in person, dunno about remorely.

As I recall I also had to go to the regional capital in person to register the rental contract. Perhaps others can confirm, deny, or clarify that memory.

Just fyi, where I fell off the truck was not having an income stream such as a pension or annuity; simply having a modest pile of money didn't cut it.

In bocca al lupo.

:flypig:


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## PauloPievese

*A Final Thought*

As to the appointment itself, I suited and tied expecting something like having a quiet conversation and sherry with the ambassador. Hardly. Distinctly a cattle call experience. Take a number. When called shove paperwork and certified funds through a slot. Stamp stamp. Done.

:flypig:


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## John and Cecil

I believe the term that Paulo mentioned is "codice fiscale". I believe you can apply for that number through the consulate or from companies online as well as applying in person in Italy at a taxation office. Unsure if the process differs for non citizens of Italy though.

Also, do you have any relatives that you can trace back to Europe? Many countries, including Italy, have ways of establishing citizenship based on a blood line that can be traced back and documented to citizens in Europe. I had a grandfather that was Italian but moved to America, then my dad was born in the USA before he naturalized, and then I was born in the USA but I was able to obtain Italian citizenship by submitting documents proving my lineage to the consulate. Even if you can obtain citizenship with another European country you would then most likely be permitted to live in Italy under current EU rules.

Another option for renting is to contact people renting furnished apts on the vacation sites and asking if they will rent long term. This actually makes sense if you are willing to come to Italy on the off season as many rentals are vacant most of the time in some areas. It was pretty easy for me to find someone that would rent to me for up to 6 months at a fairly reasonable price and my rent includes all utilities including internet as well as furnishings.


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## mrsellis99

PauloPievese said:


> As to the appointment itself, I suited and tied expecting something like having a quiet conversation and sherry with the ambassador. Hardly. Distinctly a cattle call experience. Take a number. When called shove paperwork and certified funds through a slot. Stamp stamp. Done.
> 
> :flypig:


lol, that sounds awful


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## mrsellis99

John and Cecil said:


> I believe the term that Paulo mentioned is "codice fiscale". I believe you can apply for that number through the consulate or from companies online as well as applying in person in Italy at a taxation office. Unsure if the process differs for non citizens of Italy though.
> 
> Also, do you have any relatives that you can trace back to Europe? Many countries, including Italy, have ways of establishing citizenship based on a blood line that can be traced back and documented to citizens in Europe. I had a grandfather that was Italian but moved to America, then my dad was born in the USA before he naturalized, and then I was born in the USA but I was able to obtain Italian citizenship by submitting documents proving my lineage to the consulate. Even if you can obtain citizenship with another European country you would then most likely be permitted to live in Italy under current EU rules.
> 
> Another option for renting is to contact people renting furnished apts on the vacation sites and asking if they will rent long term. This actually makes sense if you are willing to come to Italy on the off season as many rentals are vacant most of the time in some areas. It was pretty easy for me to find someone that would rent to me for up to 6 months at a fairly reasonable price and my rent includes all utilities including internet as well as furnishings.


Thank you John and Cecil! My husband has Irish lineage, maybe I should look more into that. I like your idea of contacting people on vacation sites, will definitely keep that in mind. Thank you!


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## John and Cecil

mrsellis99 said:


> Thank you John and Cecil! My husband has Irish lineage, maybe I should look more into that. I like your idea of contacting people on vacation sites, will definitely keep that in mind. Thank you!


You are very welcome. I did a quick search and I found two websites that explain the process of obtaining dual citizenship with Ireland. 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...ish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

https://familyhistorydaily.com/gene...-you-qualify-for-dual-citizenship-in-ireland/

It sounds as though if either a parent or grandparent of your husband was an Irish citizen at the time of his birth then he could qualify for dual citizenship with Ireland. It looks like he would need to supply them with the legal documents to prove lineage from an Irish ancestor, then register and wait 6 months and then he can apply for a passport. Good luck!


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## Pippomcnal

mrsellis99 said:


> I'm a US citizen and would like to know how long does it take to get this type of visa processed (and approved or granted), assuming I have all the documents required? Also, one of the requirements is that one must have a place of residence, either owned or rented. I do plan on buying a property, but I don't know how long that would take. Is it wiser to find a rental first? If anybody has any experience with this type of visa, I would love to hear your story or any advice you may have regarding moving to Italy permanently.


My wife and I got our elective residence visa almost a year ago. It requires a long list of information, but the two items most tricky to obtain were a FBI background check requiring fingerprinting, and a 4 year lease. The lease was the real hurdle. Turns out, 4 years is the standard here, so any lease you get will be 4. Which really means the land lord can’t toss you out for 4 years, but it doesn’t require you to stay 4 years. 

Our visa came very quickly, in about a month to 6 weeks. But the key thing is we had two social security pensions and I had two other pensions. This made it all smooth. Savings, no matter how large, don’t look as reliable to Italy as a regular monthly income, no matter how much you lost at Monte Carlo . . .


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## NickZ

Leases can be 4+4 or 3+3. That's four years with an option or three with an option. Those are "normal" leases aimed at residents.

There is a lease type under 18 months aimed at second home types. Students living away from home. Workers living away from the family home etc.


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## PauloPievese

NickZ said:


> There is a lease type under 18 months aimed at second home types. Students living away from home. Workers living away from the family home etc.


The aforementioned _transitorio_.

While we're hijacking this thread, the 3+3 and 4+4 permit one to renew for 3 o4 4 years respectively; at the same terms? 

:flypig:


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## NickZ

I guess that depends on the contract but it's not like rents are soaring around Italy.

There are actually two types. Open market contracts that the landlord sets the price. These are taxed higher. There is canone concordato which is set by the government,local landlords and renters. Its taxed lower for the landlord to compensate for the lower rent. I think this contract is 3+2


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## John and Cecil

There are also short term leases in Italy, but I guess they are not useful for acquiring a residency visa and cater mostly to tourists. My current lease is a short term lease based on law # 431 of Dec 9, 1998. My lease is month to month with a maximum allowed rental period of 6 months although supposedly it can be longer than that. 

These types of leases would seem to be very attractive for owners of vacation rentals, this way they can rent their place out over the entire off season and still be sure it is vacant when the summer season arrives. They can also be attractive for people that wish to move to a new country with the intention of seeing the area and possibly buying a home since they are often furnished and come with all the utilities. My lease comes all inclusive with gas, electric, water, and wifi internet.


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## mrsellis99

Pippomcnal said:


> My wife and I got our elective residence visa almost a year ago. It requires a long list of information, but the two items most tricky to obtain were a FBI background check requiring fingerprinting, and a 4 year lease. The lease was the real hurdle. Turns out, 4 years is the standard here, so any lease you get will be 4. Which really means the land lord can’t toss you out for 4 years, but it doesn’t require you to stay 4 years.
> 
> Our visa came very quickly, in about a month to 6 weeks. But the key thing is we had two social security pensions and I had two other pensions. This made it all smooth. Savings, no matter how large, don’t look as reliable to Italy as a regular monthly income, no matter how much you lost at Monte Carlo . . .


Thank you! Wow, 4 years, that's a long time. Is there penalty though if you break that 4 year lease, like here in the US? Sounds like no matter how much you have in the bank/savings, they are not likely to issue that visa? My husband and I have a few years to go before we can collect SS.

So did you and your wife make the move to Italy?


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## mrsellis99

John and Cecil said:


> There are also short term leases in Italy, but I guess they are not useful for acquiring a residency visa and cater mostly to tourists. My current lease is a short term lease based on law # 431 of Dec 9, 1998. My lease is month to month with a maximum allowed rental period of 6 months although supposedly it can be longer than that.
> 
> These types of leases would seem to be very attractive for owners of vacation rentals, this way they can rent their place out over the entire off season and still be sure it is vacant when the summer season arrives. They can also be attractive for people that wish to move to a new country with the intention of seeing the area and possibly buying a home since they are often furnished and come with all the utilities. My lease comes all inclusive with gas, electric, water, and wifi internet.


Yeah, a long term lease sounds like a dilemna for us. We were thinking of just buying a small apartment, something financially that would make more sense than paying rent, esp if one of the requirements to get this type of visa is getting a rental with a 4 year lease, as some people have said to me. Thank you so much for your reply!


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## GeordieBorn

Do look at the cost of buying and selling in Italy, and do not expect to be able to simpy sell when you want - check the timescales...


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## palomalou

GeordieBorn said:


> Do look at the cost of buying and selling in Italy, and do not expect to be able to simpy sell when you want - check the timescales...


GeordieBorn, how might that be checked? Thanks!


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## GeordieBorn

No way really that I know, but we started looking 2008/9, bought and sold by 2018. In 2018 while selling we noted how many places were still up for sale that were when we were looking to buy! Okay it may depend on the type of house, our areas being countryside, but I think that basically the Italian market differs.


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## PauloPievese

Don't make this into brain surgery. Talk to a real estate agent in your area. I know when I was looking in west Umbria there were places that had been on the market for years.
:flypig:


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## Anna_Magnani

Just a few thoughts: Speaking Italian is important not only for obvious practical reasons but out of respect for one's host country. It's been my experience that Native English speakers tend to assume they'll be accommodated and Italian generosity and gregariousness try to oblige. 

Couples/families in which someone doesn't work or interact regularly in Italian contexts tend to live in linguistic ghettos, isolated. The partner of a British colleague of mine speaks a few words of Italian and has no friends to my knowledge as one example. 

I've lived in Italy and Germany for a total of 15 years and learned to speak both languages fluently. Why live in a foreign country otherwise if you're not going to engage with it culturally. 

No offense intended really, though I will confess my distaste for Americans invading foreign countries . 

And regarding where to live, a friend (Italian) whose family holiday house is in a small town in Abruzzo said an American couple had bought a house there and she found it extremely odd. What were they doing there she wondered. They didn't speak much Italian she thought. They didn't interact with people. And she's educated, open-minded and lives in a major city. 

Comunque buona fortuna!


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## PauloPievese

Anna_Magnani said:


> Speaking Italian is important ... out of respect for one's host country.


Sadly, you will never visit China or Botswana 

Oddly I never get this from Italians only from, well, you know.

We all do our best. I have no facility for languages. My shrink says it is a symptom of my ADD. On well. 

I just try to be respectful, limp along as best I can with my few words and pointing. What usually happens is that the Italians jump on the chance to practice their English.

My favorite "we don't speak English" experience was in Naples. I sat at a sidewalk cafe and ask for the _lista_. A waiter waved me inside. I thought maybe the menu was painted on the wall or something. When I got to the door the waiter was in the back waving me on. When I got there I was in the kitchen. I just walked through pointing at things that looked good and ultimately the chef personally served me on the sidewalk. This was good for me although I suppose the correct thing to have done was to commit _seppuku_ on the sidewalk.

:flypig:


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## John and Cecil

I am also an "Edison-trait child" and languages are difficult for me as well, and I self taught myself many subjects like computers, psychology, automotive technology, land surveying, etc. I have found learning languages is much easier for me using visual techniques, but audio teaching aids don't work well for me at all. It depends on what type of person you are too though (visual, audio, touch, etc), but your ADD/ADHD will actually allow you to learn a language (or anything else) at a much faster rate if you can maintain your focus on it. 

The first step is to put yourself in a positive emotional mindset (the "zone")and generate a strong desire to accomplish learning the language. ADD is not only an attention deficit disorder (negative), it is also an intense hyperfocus (positive). Most people on the planet are average and walk in the middle, but Edison kids walk both extreme edges at the same time. Average people can more easily focus on various subjects and they can more easily multitask but they cannot as easily generate an intense and concentrated focus. You must find a way to learn in a way that interests you and caters toward your preferred method of learning. Rosetta Stone is not bad to start with for more visual people although it gets repetitive and boring quickly, and visual dictionaries can work well too for visual learning people. Tell Me More is a unique Italian language learning program, you can carry on text conversations with a computer AI and it has crossword puzzles and word search games, etc. Perhaps watching movies you already know in Italian might help too. You can learn anything if you can generating a strong focus on the material. It is difficult with languages though, and languages can also be much more difficult for introverts than for extroverts.

Many of the greatest people to walk the planet had ADD / ADHD, and it is what made them great. Had the ADD been drugged out of them their accomplishments would have disappeared as well. Do not hide from who you are or let people speak negatively about you or label it a "disorder". Embrace it, it is a gift and it is a part of you. It is not a disorder, it comes from God, and it is part of your inner light so let it help you conquer your fear.

One short example: Tiger Woods. He was on top of the world in golf. Then he cheated on his wife and got caught, the remorse took him down and his game suffered and he immediately dropped off the top of the charts. His remorse and negative feelings took away the "zone" and he lost his focus and his play suffered. He never really recovered either. The lesson to learn here is if you want to be on top of the world you must feel good about who you are. Good luck!


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## GeordieBorn

Perhaps unfortunately , Rosetta bought "Tell me more" from Auralog in 2013 as it sounded interesting...


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## NickZ

You'll want to know more than the basics the moment something breaks or you need to order something that you don't buy routinely.

With shopping at least you can look around amazon.uk find the item and than search on Amazon.it but try explaining to your mechanic,plumber or electrician a problem without a fair bit of Italian.

The fact people jumped in with English just means the area has a lot of English speaking tourists. There are areas with mostly German or French or even just Italian tourists. There are areas with no tourists. 

If you're interested in living in high tourism areas than yes you can likely manage without much Italian. The further you get from those shires the less you'll manage.


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## PauloPievese

*Thanks a Bunch*

What a helpful lot we all are!

First, to the guy who want's me to love myself, not a problem there bucko.

And to my dear colleague Nick who advises not wandering too far off the beaten path, a quick note or two:

In 2001 I took a 100 day "vacation" in Italy; rented a car and had the firm intention of taking the tiniest highways I could find across Italy which I did, from Val d'Aosta to Puglia, from Finale Ligure to Trieste, from Lecce to Crotone (didn't quite make it to Regio Calabria). During this time I had a car breakdown, a health emergency, and getting hideously lost quite a few times. In all this I sweated it not (see "love myself" above.) Fumbling with a smile and good intentions goes a long way. (I remember asking for help as I tried to find my way across Pavia with a map for Padua.)

Also I had a brief residential sojourn in a small Umbrian town as you may recall. There were quite a few speed bumps there. I was up to probably 50 words of Italian by then, matching my landlady's 50 words of English. Was everything hunky dory? No. A few bumps as I said. If I wanted a bumpless life I would stay in my condominium near the Gulf of Mexico.

I attribute any success to a few points:
* Don't sweat it; it will probablly work out.
* Italians are some of nicest and most helpful people you will ever meet.
* I speak the universal language; I have money, they want it.

:flypig:

Sunset on the beach near my home


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## PauloPievese

PauloPievese said:


> Sunset on the beach near my home


Looks like the operation of the "attach a picture" gizmo is beyond me. Trust me, it's a great picture.
=PP=


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## NickZ

PauloPievese said:


> I attribute any success to a few points:
> * Don't sweat it; it will probablly work out.
> * Italians are some of nicest and most helpful people you will ever meet.
> * I speak the universal language; I have money, they want it.
> 
> :flypig:


Problems tend to happen in the middle of the night. Long weekends,holidays etc. When on the coldest night in years the storm takes down the town power supply for a week you can have all the money and goodwill in the world but not being able to communicate will likely have you cold and in the dark. Literally and figuratively. 

I hate to point this out but having to rely on people who speak English will likely lead you to relying on people that price things for rich tourists. You'll never know you are paying more than you should. You'll never get to know the 80 year workman that is the only competent guy in the area. 

Obviously if you have the money you can hire somebody to stand between you and the world. Plenty of people have assistants. But people will find their life easier if they take the effort to have a basic understanding of the language.

Good luck passing the driving theory test without a firm grasp on the language.


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## Greek Fisherman

PauloPievese said:


> *Unauthoritative Thoughts*
> For the elective residency visa, is the Miami consulate only looking for an income stream? Could they care less if you had a $1Mil in your bank account? I know some consulates are like that! If I am understanding you correctly that having $60K in an account wouldn't help someone with the Miami consulate, they would need income?
> 
> 
> I was trying to move to a small town in Umbria. Despite this there was an agency specializing in that town and the nearby area. Were it I and I could not be physically present, I would use one of the large search engines such as immobiliare.it or casa.it searching for your town or the nearest larger town. Look for one or two agencies that are more represented, remembering to look for _affitto _(rent) not _vendita _(sale); some agencies do not handle rentals. You might then use Google Streetview to see if the agency's address is a business. Something I just did to see if it would work was to use Google Maps to locate the town and then to search for "real estate agents" (in English); my agency was found.
> 
> Yes, it is always better to speak Italian. It is however my experience that everyone doing business in Italy is desperately trying to learn English. In my case the principals and I fumbled back and forth until a property was identified and then they called in a translator to both assure that we were really on the same page and then to translate documents.
> 
> I'm trying to remember the details of the process. Having an Italian back account seemed like a good idea except without a residence permit, a permisso di soggiorno, PdS, the fees are very high. To open a bank account you need the equivalent of a social security number (the name of which I forget); easy to get in person, dunno about remorely.
> 
> As I recall I also had to go to the regional capital in person to register the rental contract. Perhaps others can confirm, deny, or clarify that memory.
> 
> Just fyi, where I fell off the truck was not having an income stream such as a pension or annuity; simply having a modest pile of money didn't cut it.
> 
> In bocca al lupo.
> 
> :flypig:


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