# Why do so many people think the only reason expats live in Mexico is for economic



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

... reasons or the weather? Isn't that stereotyping expats? Why do some expats living here think all expats have to live like they choose to live or are odd man out? There are manifold reasons to retire in Mexico or work here. Does it always have to be the reasons you choose to move from the US or Canada or can't some understand other expats situations and needs and desires? Not communicating with locals in Spanish can be a very trying experience for some and changes their needs to feel comfortable considerably, I feel.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

I think most people are highly motivated by money issues, so all they can think about is how to live more cheaply.

I used to be that way. I would shop at the discount stores, and go home so upset I'd be shaking with rage at the outrageous conduct of the store employees and customers, and the need to drive all over town looking for something I wanted. My wife would go to an upscale department store downtown, and have a pleasant peaceful day, with pleasant clerks, a nice tea room downstairs, and got everything she wanted in one store. I thought she was foolish for spending a few dollars extra. I finally had an epiphany, and realized she was the smart one.

I tell people if the only reason you want to live in Mexico is to save money, you will not last long. If you cannot make friends with the Mexican people, you will not be happy in Mexico.


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## Trailrunner (Mar 18, 2012)

What a good question, AlanMexicali! I fell in love with this country and its people sometime back in the sixties when I first set foot on it and have been traveling and exploring it ever since until I could finally have enough steady income to live here full-time. The fact that I choose to live in an area that has what is supposed to be the second best climate in the world and the economy of this country makes it possible for me to have a better lifestyle than if I was still in California or anywhere in the US is a perk. Not the reason I am here.

Unfortunately, I'd say something like 90/95% of the foreigners around the area where I live are only here because it's 'cheap and warm'. Economic refugees, and I feel for their plight, but I avoid them like the plague. Many are angry and arrogant, most never learn even a conversational level of the language and resent that Mexicans don't speak their language, nor do many of them involve themselves in the Mexican culture. They embarrass me.

Currently, there is a small group of foreigners involved in a "fight" with the padre of the pueblo I live in and are asking for a human rights lawyer to get involved - for what I do not know. However, I am beginning to be asked by my Mexican neighbors if I am involved in this or "molestado" by the padre too. sigh

Agree with PieGrande: "If you cannot make friends with the Mexican people, you will not be happy in Mexico." I'd take it a step further and say. . .if you have no intention of making friends with the Mexican people - please, don't come!


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

Fighting with a Catholic priest in a nation where 90% of the population believe, as a matter of faith, that the priest represents God on the planet? Oh, man, I love it. This ought to be fun. Keep us posted.  

As expats, we are guests in Mexico. We must conduct ourselves with the manners expected from honored guests.


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## Trailrunner (Mar 18, 2012)

I KNOW, PieGrande! What are they thinking? Just another ****** group for me to keep a lengthy distance from.

I'm still waiting to hear what their issue is about. Perhaps it's justifiable as in they have proof of child molestation, or something like that. . .but, probably not.

I will keep you posted.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

It is also possible something completely different is involved. For example, in many Mexican communities, the church fires off a large number of aerial bombs before mass, including at times midnight, and 4 am.

And, also in some communities the church has large loud speakers and every word of the Mass is broadcast all over town, also at midnight or 4 am, if relevant.

In my town, several years ago, someone, a local, not me, wrote an anonymous letter to the priest. He thought it over, and turned off the public address system during sleeping hours, but they still fire the aerial bombs before Mass.

People from a culture where there is extreme separation of church and state might well imagine they could force the aerial bombs to be stopped as well, since in the US this would be forcing attention to a religion. 

Who can say? Do let us know as you find out.

Let me add I am in the enviable position of being the only North American in a 750 square mile area (not counting any babies who were born NOB, of course.) I do wish the other folks would move. 

But, this means my reputation is based solely on my own behavior, and not by behavior of other people who might have totally different personalities.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

Last year we posted extensively on the Ugly American syndrome - something that this lawsuit BS is an example of. I have the distinction of being an New Yorker, which in foreign parlance prejudice makes me twice as obnoxious as just a USAer. (even in the USA!)

We have also posted at length about being a guest is anothers home and how it is the responsibility of the guest to live by the rules and customs they have chosen (a very important point) to live in.

In a vast generalization - I may conclude that those most guilty of being not good guests have never (or hardly ever) lived in a situation where they were not the dominant force, the majority, the accepted ones. I would think these are the people who have it the hardest and in fighting "the system" give those who know their manners a bad reputation.

On another thread someone said, "If you don't like it in Mexico, why did you move here?" As Alan says, if it was only for the money and the climate, those are the wrong reason and soon those reasons will disappear.

Meanwhile, by your actions you must show your hosts that you are not like "those people". Remember the lesson we learned as children: You are judged by the company you keep.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> In a vast generalization - I may conclude that those most guilty of being not good guests have never (or hardly ever) lived in a situation where they were not the dominant force, the majority, the accepted ones. I would think these are the people who have it the hardest and in fighting "the system" give those who know their manners a bad reputation.


To add to your generalization, I would say that the bad guests have probably never done much traveling outside their own country. And most likely they grew up learning and then taking as a given that they lived in "the best country in the world". No wonder they have problems adjusting to life in Mexico!


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> To add to your generalization, I would say that the bad guests have probably never done much traveling outside their own country. And most likely they grew up learning and then taking as a given that they lived in "the best country in the world". No wonder they have problems adjusting to life in Mexico!


I would agree 100%. Many of my compatriots love their country like children love their parents; they refuse to see any of its flaws, and, as a result, have a real challenge implementing or accepting needed improvements.

30% of US adults have passports, and that's a jump from just a few years ago; then it was only 18%. But the need for a passport, now, to travel to Mexico and Canada has caused an increase.

I have no issue with people who haven't traveled internationally, I hadn't left this continent till 10 years ago. 

It's the ones described by Jon, who don't want to travel, because they think there's nothing worth seeing outside their own borders, who find living as a minority, or in a culture they have no desire to learn, most difficult.


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## Trailrunner (Mar 18, 2012)

Well, I still don't know exactly what the 'beef' is, but what I'm hearing is the priest is using a loudspeaker to say mass or for prayers and it's probably early in the morning. I live only a few blocks from the church and I cannot hear it. 

Vamos a ver.


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## Ken Wood (Oct 22, 2011)

As far as the thoughts of people NOB, I believe a great many NOB'ers do come here initially with ideas of a Mexico where you can live like royalty for a few pesos a month. Rumors abound of "someone I know" who gets a place on the beach, complete with a driver, food, cook, housekeeper, etc. for ~300 USD per month. Not realistic, I know, but neither is the 100 mpg carburetor, and those rumors still persist. I'm not here for the economy, nor the weather, and will assume that you have other reasons also, but I have yet to make a trip north and not be quizzed on some aspect of how cheap things are SOB. 
Amongst our expat family here, we could well be our own worst enemy in perpetuating this line of thinking, and maybe it is not that far off base. Based on various historical threads, the economy is referenced as being a prime reason for the relocation of a great many expats, maybe this fuels the jump to this logic. If you quizzed 10 expats on why Mexico, I suspect the economy would show up on more lists than any other reason, maybe not at the top of their list, but somewhere near the top. 
As to your philosophical question on why some humans feel that their way is obviously the only way, there is no doubt that I will die before that one is decided.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Nob*



Ken Wood said:


> As far as the thoughts of people NOB, I believe a great many NOB'ers do come here initially with ideas of a Mexico where you can live like royalty for a few pesos a month. Rumors abound of "someone I know" who gets a place on the beach, complete with a driver, food, cook, housekeeper, etc. for ~300 USD per month. Not realistic, I know, but neither is the 100 mpg carburetor, and those rumors still persist. I'm not here for the economy, nor the weather, and will assume that you have other reasons also, but I have yet to make a trip north and not be quizzed on some aspect of how cheap things are SOB.
> Amongst our expat family here, we could well be our own worst enemy in perpetuating this line of thinking, and maybe it is not that far off base. Based on various historical threads, the economy is referenced as being a prime reason for the relocation of a great many expats, maybe this fuels the jump to this logic. If you quizzed 10 expats on why Mexico, I suspect the economy would show up on more lists than any other reason, maybe not at the top of their list, but somewhere near the top.
> As to your philosophical question on why some humans feel that their way is obviously the only way, there is no doubt that I will die before that one is decided.


I have to agree with what you feel is relevant to my questions. I have had people NOB who are scared to even go to TJ that live in San Diego tell me to stop comparing Mexico's prices to San Diego prices years ago and now just chat about specific details about my life SOB, not generalizations. If anyone tells me Mexico is too dangerous to visit I simply switch the subject. My best friends borrow my house in Mexicali all the time. Their wives need manicures/pedicures/hair done and they go to restaurants, rodeos, lowrider shows, bull fights and the annual feria.


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## Uecker_seats (Jan 26, 2012)

I have been traveling to Puerto Vallarta since my last divorce, approx. 10 years. I do hope to retire down there in the future, it truly is paradise. PV has a very large expat population, lots of Canadians. Lots of expats who are sucessfull business owners as well, several that are well meaning and make charitable controbutions to the community. As with any tropical paradise, it also attracts people who will exploit their adopted town. This is paticularly true in Pto Vallarta, where two old ex pat men, one American, one Englishman, have suceeded in alienating the locals due to their self imposed entitlement over the town.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Uecker_seats said:


> This is paticularly true in Pto Vallarta, where two old ex pat men, one American, one Englishman, have suceeded in alienating the locals due to their self imposed entitlement over the town.


I don't know where you gained these impressions. There is no special imposed entitlement here in PV. There are many different types in town but the establishment who are in control are all Mexican. And most of them know that making gringos feel welcome is key to their continued success.


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## Uecker_seats (Jan 26, 2012)

Come on, Keith!? How long you been living there? You know exactly who I am speaking of. Guys like that give other expats down there a real bad name.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

Uecker_seats said:


> Come on, Keith!? How long you been living there? You know exactly who I am speaking of. Guys like that give other expats down there a real bad name.


You must be speaking of a specific ****** ghetto that in not way represents PV. I know of several.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*PV*



kcowan said:


> I don't know where you gained these impressions. There is no special imposed entitlement here in PV. There are many different types in town but the establishment who are in control are all Mexican. And most of them know that making gringos feel welcome is key to their continued success.


An ex fellow worker of mine in San Diego went to PV twice in a row to stay with his wife's relatives 6 years ago. He has many in laws and they told him there is a growing resentment because of so many expats buying into their neighborhoods and driving the price of a large 3 bedroom newer block house which before cost about $85.000 US to double about $160,000 US and their children were getting shafted when ready to buy.

To say there is no influence is a bit naive and to say all there are happy except possibly the hospitality service people. Also more business are owned by expats where there is service to tourists now. Some bars/restaurants and fishing trip boats in Zona Marina etc.

When we went to PV 2 times for New Years lately everyone was more than friendly. The high security is normal now at all condos and hotels I am told.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

*Divert to PV*

While the PV discussion is a bit off topic, I'd like to add my two cents. When we visited PV the first time two years ago, we fell in love. We stayed in our friends condo in Marina Vallarta - where a three BR could have sold for $400K USD a few years ago, gated, guarded, swimming pool - you get the idea.

We used his car and the first stop we made was a car wash, then the local supermarket, drove into town, went to Soriana, had to use Pemex, IOW we felt as if we really weren't like the tourists. We needed to learn how to park the car, walk around and get lost. And with all that, having to learn to live there, not being hotel/restaurant catered to there, we fell in love with PV, and decided that is where we were going to retire.

After that trip, I got involved on this board and someone suggested we had set our sights too narrow and we should look at Lake Chapala. So on our next trip we did. For us, all ideas of PV went away - for all the reasons we have discussed and discussed. In PV, at we did not find a community, we found a small city of people. We walked on the Malecon, and it could just have well have been in Ocean City Maryland, or Miami Beach Florida. The culture was all wrong...it was not like the Soriana or the Pemex or the car wash. After our bus trip to Ajijic and stay last year and after being showed around by a RE agent, we came back to PV for three days, and we immediately noticed the difference.

Now there are different strokes for different folks and those who like the PV way are just as entitled to their opinion - mine is not the final word - and they should live and be happy there. For me, it is not where I want to live. Yes, I am sure you in Puebla, D.F., Gaud, Baja Sur and all think your place is the best - and you should! Thank Heaven we are not all the same

Is PV more of a ****** place? In my opinion, yes, but that is their industry - tourism, cruise ships, expensive condos, 1st class hotels are its mainstay and makes it more ****** than even Lakeside. And exploiting that industry for the good of its citizens is not wrong. It is just not where I want to live; visit? maybe to go to the beach, but not to live - too big, too fast, too impersonal.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*PV*



FHBOY said:


> While the PV discussion is a bit off topic, I'd like to add my two cents. When we visited PV the first time two years ago, we fell in love. We stayed in our friends condo in Marina Vallarta - where a three BR could have sold for $400K USD a few years ago, gated, guarded, swimming pool - you get the idea.
> 
> We used his car and the first stop we made was a car wash, then the local supermarket, drove into town, went to Soriana, had to use Pemex, IOW we felt as if we really weren't like the tourists. We needed to learn how to park the car, walk around and get lost. And with all that, having to learn to live there, not being hotel/restaurant catered to there, we fell in love with PV, and decided that is where we were going to retire.
> 
> ...



It is on topic and very informative. PV is one of the expats and snowbirds most sought after refuge. No one really needs to speak Spanish except 10 or so phrases and can feel right at home in most bars and restaurants. Bucerias beach is a great place to drink, snack, swim and hang out for relatively little money, compared to the beaches in front of the hotels and condos there and many can always find English speaking people to chat with. The pools in the condos we stayed at are very friendly and everyone chats in English. You can buy a day pass for the Hyatt a short walk from the marina for $25.00 pesos and hang out on the beach or pool there. The high security thing is all over the place but not in Iztapa for some reason. You can go into any hotel from the beach to eat, you just can't use the pool area, and most do not have anything from stopping you from walking in off the street side like PV.


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## jasavak (Nov 22, 2011)

Do they have zarandeado in PV ? I was south on the Nayarit coast a few months ago and they do a mean pargo .


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Trailrunner said:


> What a good question, AlanMexicali! I fell in love with this country and its people sometime back in the sixties when I first set foot on it and have been traveling and exploring it ever since until I could finally have enough steady income to live here full-time. The fact that I choose to live in an area that has what is supposed to be the second best climate in the world and the economy of this country makes it possible for me to have a better lifestyle than if I was still in California or anywhere in the US is a perk. Not the reason I am here.
> 
> Unfortunately, I'd say something like 90/95% of the foreigners around the area where I live are only here because it's 'cheap and warm'. Economic refugees, and I feel for their plight, but I avoid them like the plague. Many are angry and arrogant, most never learn even a conversational level of the language and resent that Mexicans don't speak their language, nor do many of them involve themselves in the Mexican culture. They embarrass me.
> 
> ...




The point you make about economic refuges has some merit. The point about living here for the perk of having a better lifestyle on a budget is for all except those expats that work here to earn a living. The point some do not intend to learn the language to a conversational level and integrate into the culture is possibly a matter of preference/age and not really simple to understand. It might be that these expats feel isolation is better for them and have a fellowship with others doing the same thing. I read on the Chapala.com board also and do feel a sense of some posting there are being overly judgmental and critical of Mexico's way of doing business, and cry babies that things are not like back home in the US or Canada. The term "Grumpy Old Men/Women" comes to mind. 

So your final point of some not wanting to integrate into Mexican society and not understanding and being able to communication in Spanish and not watching from a more insider view of what Mexico "is all about" has them outside looking in and not understanding the culture except reading books about it and really alienating themselves. This is not necessarily bad for them but does bring a few laughs my way when they state their so called "facts" that this is the way Mexico really is, when in fact their facts are really their own judgmental preconceived notions [prejudice] of the way they see things looking from the outside in and not knowing anything about Mexicans and only comparing the Mexican way of doing business to the US or Canadian way, through ignorance. They can read all the books they want about Mexico but will not understand. This is just my experience and I may be way off base. 

Your other point about the climate is a given for all.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> The point you make about economic refuges has some merit.
> 
> Your other point about the climate is a given for all.


Continuing in that vein, there is no doubt that everyone has their own reasons to move to Mexico/become an expat/snowbird. Those who do not want to integrate into the community and then find a like thinking community have their place also. But, when people of that thinking begin to criticize, exploit and demean the culture and the people that is where they draw unfavorable pictures of NOBer's and then in some cases become the NOB stereotype, that is a problem.

In my community in the states there are those whose actions in the day-to-day make it tough on the entire community. They are rude, they treat store clerks and service people like peons, they argue over pennies in a supermarket, they believe that they have the "right" to do anything and that you have no right to do anything else. They are a minority, but to strangers in the neighborhood, they are the one's people remember. And further, those clerks and service people begin to reflexively respond to anyone who comes into their establishment in the neighborhood in the same manner, deservedly or not. So you see, it it not just south of the border where it happens, these are attributes developed north of the border and imported. 

I hold no breach for you wanting to come down to your little Anglo enclave, live in your Anglo centric world, that is like a "vacation" that lasts forever, but just like on a vacation, your view of reality of day-to-day living is suspended. BTW that is not a wrong thing to do - it is just not the way I think. It is sort of like a 365 day cruise: What happens when you hit the final dock?

As I have said repeatedly, those of you/us who wish to make Mexico our home need to work hard to make sure we are welcomed, and in many cases these people make that job doubly hard. Are we going to change either the perpetrator or the victim of this type of behavior? I doubt it, but to make our living better, we have to keep on trying.

[Side note - there is a great poem that I have pasted here: The Drunken Driver Has the Right of Way - I hope you enjoy it: 

_'The Drunken Driver Has the Right Of Way'_
by Ethan Coen

_The loudest have the final say,
The wanton win, the rash hold sway,
The realist's rules of order say
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The Kubla Khan can butt in line;
The biggest brute can take what's mine;
When heavyweights break wind, that's fine;
No matter what a judge might say,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The guiltiest feel free of guilt;
Who care not, bloom; who worry, wilt;
Plans better laid are rarely built
For forethought seldom wins the day;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The most attentive and unfailing
Carefulness is unavailing
Wheresoever fools are flailing;
Wisdom there is held at bay;,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

De jure is de facto's slave;
The most foolhardy beat the brave;
Brass routs restraint; low lies high's grave;
When conscience leads you, it's astray;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

It's only the naivest who'll
Deny this, that the reckless rule;
When facing an oncoming fool
The practiced and sagacious say
Watch out — one side — look sharp — gang way.

However much you plan and pray,
Alas, alack, tant pis, oy vey,
Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way._

Excerpted from 'The Drunken Driver Has The Right Of Way' by Ethan Coen. Excerpted by permission of Crown Publishing Group/Random House


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Sunday en El Jardin, SMA*



FHBOY said:


> Continuing in that vein, there is no doubt that everyone has their own reasons to move to Mexico/become an expat/snowbird. Those who do not want to integrate into the community and then find a like thinking community have their place also. But, when people of that thinking begin to criticize, exploit and demean the culture and the people that is where they draw unfavorable pictures of NOBer's and then in some cases become the NOB stereotype, that is a problem.
> 
> In my community in the states there are those whose actions in the day-to-day make it tough on the entire community. They are rude, they treat store clerks and service people like peons, they argue over pennies in a supermarket, they believe that they have the "right" to do anything and that you have no right to do anything else. They are a minority, but to strangers in the neighborhood, they are the one's people remember. And further, those clerks and service people begin to reflexively respond to anyone who comes into their establishment in the neighborhood in the same manner, deservedly or not. So you see, it it not just south of the border where it happens, these are attributes developed north of the border and imported.
> 
> ...


You know I have lived in San Diego for over 30 years as well as Mexico since separating and then divorcing a Mexican wife and remarrying my current Mexican National wife. When in SD I have to think it is a great place; liberal, laid back compared to the north east US/Canada and a vacation spot also. When in Mexicali it is a family orientated and now industrial city but with roots in agriculture and beef raising. In San Luis Potosi it is an industrial city, 1,400,000 but a very old colonial city developed by rich mine owners and strong past governors with influence in Mexico City for 400 or more years and culturally advanced even compared to SD. Mexicali is backward culturally. TJ is somewhere in between Mexicali and SD culturally. This all takes adapting to.

Adapting is hard but not impossible for me. You can see things with rose colored glasses or you can see things with a magnifying glass or anywhere in between. Good intentions go a long way in adapting, in my opinion. If a person, at any age and in any condition has good intentions I don't care what language you speak or what you look like or what your status social/ economically you are, you will succeed in all things you desire to do or become. If you want to be a happy camper just be realistic in you daily endeavors and show your true good intentions. Most people will pick it up and feel you are worth knowing and then worth helping.


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## m55vette (May 21, 2010)

My wife and I chose Mexico for lots of reasons other than the lower cost of living. We love the culture, the ceremony, the colors, the food, the slower pace, the pleasant people, the activities, the beauty. Yeah, it is nice things cost less, but when we are home in Mexico we feel alive.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

In my visits to Ajijic, I found it to be a ****** enclave. Not Chapala though nor Jocapetic.

PV offers the choice of either ****** or Mexican. It depends on what you choose. Stay off the beach if you want Mexican. It is a tourist zone and many of the tourists are from GDL and the city.

During Semana Santa and Christmas, the beaches become truly Mexican with tourists. But to live like a local, you have to live off the ****** path. The prices went up a lot because of demand. That stopped in 2007 after the US RE meltdown. So to report PV as a ****** location is just as bad as reporting Ajijic as one. Based on a limited sample. 

If you want Mexico, go to Pitallal. Or any of the other colonias more that 6 blocks from the beach. You can buy a nice 3BR villa for $100k. More rustico starts at $40k.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

kcowan said:


> In my visits to Ajijic, I found it to be a ****** enclave. Not Chapala though nor Jocapetic...If you want Mexico, go to Pitallal. Or any of the other colonias more that 6 blocks from the beach. You can buy a nice 3BR villa for $100k. More rustico starts at $40k.


We can only speak first hand from our experiences, mine is different than yours and that provides perspective especially when neither of us is right or wrong, nor are we trying to prove a point. Thank you for your observations.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

*We will see.*



Trailrunner said:


> Well, I still don't know exactly what the 'beef' is, but what I'm hearing is the priest is using a loudspeaker to say mass or for prayers and it's probably early in the morning. I live only a few blocks from the church and I cannot hear it.
> 
> Vamos a ver.


If so, that was on my short list. Interesting.


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

AlanMexicali said:


> The point some do not intend to learn the language to a conversational level and integrate into the culture is possibly a matter of preference/age and not really simple to understand. It might be that these expats feel isolation is better for them and have a fellowship with others doing the same thing. I read on the Chapala.com board also and do feel a sense of some posting there are being overly judgmental and critical of Mexico's way of doing business, and cry babies that things are not like back home in the US or Canada. The term "Grumpy Old Men/Women" comes to mind.


It's easy enough to sympathize with expats who try to learn a language and aren't very good at it, but I find it very difficult to relate to those who don't at least make the effort when living in a foreign country. Mexicans are pretty forgiving of even dreadful attempts at Spanish, yet I've been at gatherings where Mexicans who aren't fluent in English are virtually ignored, or worse, forced to listen to criticisms of their country and people (many understand English far better than they speak). In general, here and elsewhere, I've noticed that expats in groups tend to slide pretty easily into "us vs. them" mode. Many of these same folks in smaller numbers are perfectly good company, love the place and people, and would never be knowingly rude. I'm sure the majority are totally unaware of their behavior, but it's one reason I avoid living among or hanging out much with groups of English speakers abroad. For all I know, I may be guilty on occasion, too, though I sure hope not.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

makaloco said:


> . . . I've been at gatherings where Mexicans who aren't fluent in English are virtually ignored, or worse, forced to listen to criticisms of their country and people (many understand English far better than they speak). In general, here and elsewhere, I've noticed that expats in groups tend to slide pretty easily into "us vs. them" mode. Many of these same folks in smaller numbers are perfectly good company, love the place and people, and would never be knowingly rude. I'm sure the majority are totally unaware of their behavior, but it's one reason I avoid living among or hanging out much with groups of English speakers abroad. For all I know, I may be guilty on occasion, too, though I sure hope not.


I haven't found this to be true with my expat friends in Mexico City. Most of them are English teachers and are younger than me, in their 30s and 40s and early 50s, and most of them speak Spanish quite well or at least are attempting to learn the language. For the most part, they love living in Mexico and don't spend their time together complaining about Mexico. And I can't imagine them ignoring Mexican guests whose English isn't fluent, some of whom may be their colleagues or spouses or close friends!


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> I haven't found this to be true with my expat friends in Mexico City. Most of them are English teachers and are younger than me, in their 30s and 40s and early 50s, and most of them speak Spanish quite well or at least are attempting to learn the language. For the most part, they love living in Mexico and don't spend their time together complaining about Mexico. And I can't imagine them ignoring Mexican guests whose English isn't fluent, some of whom may be their colleagues or spouses or close friends!


Yes, of course, and I wasn't referring to circles of friends and colleagues with common interests, but larger gatherings where people aren't well acquainted and have little if anything in common other than speaking English and being in the same foreign country. I was trying to avoid saying that most of my experiences with this sort of thing have been at social events held in "expat colonies". Not all, but most.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

makaloco said:


> Yes, of course, and I wasn't referring to circles of friends and colleagues with common interests, but larger gatherings where people aren't well acquainted and have little if anything in common other than speaking English and being in the same foreign country. I was trying to avoid saying that most of my experiences with this sort of thing have been at social events held in "expat colonies". Not all, but most.


I suppose there are "expat colonies" of a sort in Mexico City, but I've never spent any time in them.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

In mixed parties, I find that the Mexicans tend to cluster and so do the expats. One conversation in Spanish and the other in English. It seems to be natural. If I join the Mexican group, they will switch to English.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

kcowan said:


> In mixed parties, I find that the Mexicans tend to cluster and so do the expats. One conversation in Spanish and the other in English. It seems to be natural. If I join the Mexican group, they will switch to English.


I have the opposite experience. The English speakers switch to Spanish when there are Spanish speakers in the group. There does seem to be a tendency for people to cluster by language though.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

I watched a TV program about the restaurants in TJ, the home of Margaritas and Caesar salads.

They have a new culinary school for Mexican food.

:: CULINARY ART SCHOOL ::


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## JoParsons (Jun 25, 2011)

I live in a place with no expats. I struggle with the language but am learning more every day. I make friends easy; just how I am. In the city, it is too noisy for me, and it's too high in elevation for my breathing. So, I'm moving lower and quieter, very rural. I love Mexico, the people, the places and being free to go where I want when I want. 

When I went to apply for my FM-3 (oh, I finally got it, by the way), I saw some americans there. What is it with us? They were overbearing, annoying, loud and, when I asked them for help, they shined me on. Then a lovely woman who was there to do paperwork to go to the US, offered to help me, wrote a letter for me in spanish and asked to exchange numbers with me so we could keep in touch. Geeze! I do my best (except for the celebrating part, to emulate their attitude and grace.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

JoParsons said:


> I live in a place with no expats. ....I do my best (except for the celebrating part, to emulate their attitude and grace.


Jo - hadn't heard from you in a while, still loving it - good. 

I don't know where, [because it is late, and because my wife and I were having mucho cerzesas fria in the plaza in Ajijic a few hours ago after being awake and traveling for 16 hours], but there has been lengthy discussions of the ill manners of foreigners both here in Mexico and elsewhere. In the end it is up to the individual whether to be a good guest in someone else's casa or not. The folks here on the forum seem to be the former, too bad we can't get a lot of the latter to join in.

Oh, I asked our waiter to speak to me solomente en espanol and I did OK for a while, but the cervesas took their toll.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> Jo - hadn't heard from you in a while, still loving it - good.
> 
> I don't know where, [because it is late, and because my wife and I were having mucho cerzesas fria in the plaza in Ajijic a few hours ago after being awake and traveling for 16 hours], but there has been lengthy discussions of the ill manners of foreigners both here in Mexico and elsewhere. In the end it is up to the individual whether to be a good guest in someone else's casa or not. The folks here on the forum seem to be the former, too bad we can't get a lot of the latter to join in.
> 
> Oh, I asked our waiter to speak to me solomente en espanol and I did OK for a while, but the cervesas took their toll.


I tell my English students that drinking a little wine or beer will help the English come out of their mouths pretty painlessly, but if they drink too much, they won't be able to communicate in any language!

And welcome to Mexico!


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

Isla Verde took the words right out of my keyboard. Hey, it's a Proven Fact that alcohol loosens the tongue, but you only want it so loose. There are plenty of perfectly wonderful expats in Mexico and all over the world, so I'm sure you'll run into many of them during your visit. Enjoy!


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

I freely admit that I'm one of those people from the USA who moved to Mexico for economic reasons. And I'm also one of those people who chose the Lake Chapala area [although not Ajijic] for the weather. I'm neither proud nor ashamed to admit it. It's just a fact of my life. I literally could not have afforded to live in the US and pay for health insurance on my meager social security income. 

I've now lived in Jocotepec municipality for four years and I absolutely love it. In my case, by happy coincidence my fiscal and physical needs meshed beautifully with everything Joco has to offer. 

I'm also one of those gringos whose Spanish, even after all this time, is pretty atrocious. Even as a kid I had no talent for foreign languages. But even I wonder why more gringos don't just TRY to use Spanish. As others on this thread have mentioned, local folks are so empathetic and most will do everything they can to try to understand me. I get by with a combination of Spanish, Spanglish, and charades. 

And like the rest of you, I also try to distance myself from "the ugly gringos," which is one of the reasons I live in Jocotepec. 

But in defense of those who moved to Mexico for solely or primarily economic reasons, I'd say that some of us have, hopefully, become good citizens and neighbors.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Just had a nice breakfast in Chapala, with FHBoy and his wife; nice people & they didn't seem any the worse off for their evening 'cervezas' in Ajijic.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I tell my English students that drinking a little wine or beer will help the English come out of their mouths pretty painlessly, but if they drink too much, they won't be able to communicate in any language!
> 
> And welcome to Mexico!


Ha! That goes for my wife. She speaks better english when shes had a few


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

*Great posting*



JoParsons said:


> I live in a place with no expats. I struggle with the language but am learning more every day. I make friends easy; just how I am. In the city, it is too noisy for me, and it's too high in elevation for my breathing. So, I'm moving lower and quieter, very rural. I love Mexico, the people, the places and being free to go where I want when I want.
> 
> When I went to apply for my FM-3 (oh, I finally got it, by the way), I saw some americans there. What is it with us? They were overbearing, annoying, loud and, when I asked them for help, they shined me on. Then a lovely woman who was there to do paperwork to go to the US, offered to help me, wrote a letter for me in spanish and asked to exchange numbers with me so we could keep in touch. Geeze! I do my best (except for the celebrating part, to emulate their attitude and grace.


Wow, that is what I call a "goose bump" posting!


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> Just had a nice breakfast in Chapala, with FHBoy and his wife; nice people & they didn't seem any the worse off for their evening 'cervezas' in Ajijic.


I more than ever have come to appreciate the wisdom our beloved curmudgeon has after a morning with him and his beautiful wife. Not an idle compliment, IRL people like RV prove that wisdom and experience make it easier for we who are/have made the choice of a new adventure in our lives a bit easier.

How else could I have learned that "A shave and a haircut, two bits" on your car horn is a grave insult or that the "OK" hand sign is not OK?

BTW - if we can find a home like his here, it would be paradise. RV and his wife have created a paradise for themselves - a model to learn from. More than ever, after meeting the man, take it from me, if he's dispensing advice/opinion/knowledge - you can take it to the bank. I have looked the man in the eye-he's the real deal.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

That's just his opinion. Others may differ, and they do from time to time.


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## terrybahena (Oct 3, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> I more than ever have come to appreciate the wisdom our beloved curmudgeon has after a morning with him and his beautiful wife. Not an idle compliment, IRL people like RV prove that wisdom and experience make it easier for we who are/have made the choice of a new adventure in our lives a bit easier.
> 
> How else could I have learned that "A shave and a haircut, two bits" on your car horn is a grave insult or that the "OK" hand sign is not OK?
> 
> BTW - if we can find a home like his here, it would be paradise. RV and his wife have created a paradise for themselves - a model to learn from. More than ever, after meeting the man, take it from me, if he's dispensing advice/opinion/knowledge - you can take it to the bank. I have looked the man in the eye-he's the real deal.


The hand sign for "ok" is not ok???


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The 'OK sign' is obscene in Mexico and Spain.


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## JoParsons (Jun 25, 2011)

Oh god! I do the thumbs up all the time . . . is that alright?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Thumbs up is just fine.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Thumbs up.*



RVGRINGO said:


> Thumbs up is just fine.


Thank goodness. I was worried as was Jo. LOL

I know presume the OK hand sign is a circle made with your thumb and 1st. finger? Or what? Help us out here, please!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

JoParsons said:


> Oh god! I do the thumbs up all the time . . . is that alright?


Thumbs up is fine. An OK sign can be alright if the circle is large; small circle is an insult, so it is best to stay away from it altogether. There are a few others. Two of the more common are: a pinching motion with curled thumb and index finger but not touching indicates that something is expensive; a curling motion with the index finger, kind of like "come here" except that the hand is held vertical indicates something is good or that you like or agree with something. You can google "mexico gestures" to find examples. However, I didn't see any web sites mention the curling index finger, which is very common here in Jalisco.


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## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

Where I live to wave your index finger back and forth to the right and left means, "No." As in, I don't want what you have to sell, etc.

To hold up the hand and wiggle the same index finger means, yes, or as poster said, good, I agree. By this, I mean pull the end of that finger towards your hand, up and down, not to the side.

I knew about the thumbs up because I do it all the time and have been told it means the same thing here.


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## Krogl (Jan 16, 2011)

In a nutshell I choose to live in Mexico because many have so little yet smile so much. I'm a true optimist and can not longer mentally afford to be around negative people. Hopefully I'm not alone with this idea.


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## jasavak (Nov 22, 2011)

PieGrande said:


> Where I live to wave your index finger back and forth to the right and left means, "No." As in, I don't want what you have to sell, etc.
> 
> To hold up the hand and wiggle the same index finger means, yes, or as poster said, good, I agree. By this, I mean pull the end of that finger towards your hand, up and down, not to the side.
> 
> I knew about the thumbs up because I do it all the time and have been told it means the same thing here.



There are a few others . A couple taps on the elbow means your cheap (codo) . 

An index finger twisted on the lower cheek means queer . (****) 

An index finger touched just below the eye = Watch out (Ojo)

A chopping motion with the hand = I want a piece (mochate)


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

Krogl said:


> In a nutshell I choose to live in Mexico because many have so little yet smile so much. I'm a true optimist and can not longer mentally afford to be around negative people. Hopefully I'm not alone with this idea.


What is the computerese for agreeing: +1 (?) - 

Been back in the USA for two days, and already notice the difference: there are so many unhappy, angry people, who look at me like I'm Mary Poppins - or some kind of fool, because I smile, have a upturn in my voice, look them in the eye - and they can't figure out why. If this is true, I am one very happy fool. 

You knew I post from me couldncouldn't be this short. We arrived at BWI at about 1:00 am and we had parked our car in satellite lot that required a shuttle to get to it. BWI is doing some construction and the siganage is very weak. So we, MsFHBOY and I get our luggeage and head to the curn, along with a few other as the shuttle comes by. We all follow it like ducklings until it stops so we can board it. Wouldn't you know that there would be one "ugly American" type, with his wife and four sons, who berated the driver, argued with him even though we all got ont he shuttle and left. Why? He got on, he got what wanted - WTF was the purpose in arguing?! I don't need that any more. Sorry for the rant.


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## kcowan (Jul 24, 2010)

FHBOY said:


> WTF was the purpose in arguing?! I don't need that any more. Sorry for the rant.


You will love the non-confontational society here.

You can't get down to business here. You must first ask how they are and their families before discussing anything more meaningful. Maybe that shuttle driver was already having a bad day!


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

kcowan said:


> You will love the non-confontational society here.
> 
> You can't get down to business here. You must first ask how they are and their families before discussing anything more meaningful. Maybe that shuttle driver was already having a bad day!


The funny thing is that, if you are skilled enough at asking those questions, the "business" gets done without seeming like business, because you have gained the trust and acceptance of the other person.

Being cared about in business means something, too.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

PieGrande said:


> Let me add I am in the enviable position of being the only North American in a 750 square mile area (not counting any babies who were born NOB, of course.) I do wish the other folks would move. .


But, Mexico is in North America!

Seriously, I moved here 20 years ago, at the ripe old age of 25, for economic reasons. I didn't have a job!


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## billder99 (Apr 14, 2012)

Alan,

My wife and I moved to Loreto, Baja Sur initially for a job... we stayed because we love it here, especially the people. We have never met a closer community, both ****** and Native... we had more friends here after 3 months than after 30 years living up in California. Now in our 7th year full time and still loving it, with a whole new cadre of lifetime friends.

BD


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Making Friends*



billder99 said:


> Alan,
> 
> My wife and I moved to Loreto, Baja Sur initially for a job... we stayed because we love it here, especially the people. We have never met a closer community, both ****** and Native... we had more friends here after 3 months than after 30 years living up in California. Now in our 7th year full time and still loving it, with a whole new cadre of lifetime friends.
> 
> BD


I know exactly what you mean about making friends in Mexico. It is why I have not much time when here for watching TV most of the time. LOL

Another thing, socializing here doesn't have to cost a lot of money like it "usually" does in San Diego.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

My darling wife who originally only spoke Spanish when we met has been enrolled in Berlitz for 6 months and with very little help from me just got 90% on her 6 month exam, 1 hour written and 1 hour verbal. The course is 18 months and every Sat. for 3 hours with 1 teacher and 3 students per class and lots of homework. When we were in San Diego for Semana Santa she did very well when chatting with my non Spanish speaking friends. Now we are speaking to each other in both languages, but about 80% Spanish.


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## edgeee (Jun 21, 2012)

speaking only for myself, my economic situation was the main reason i looked at Mexico to begin with. i suspect this is true for the majority (51% or more) of those new or soon-to-be expats you will find here, simply because the pool of people with that problem is growing.
i could go back to where i came from and find similar cost in housing, but i would be stuck in a tiny studio in a poor location, and transportation would consume every extra dollar unless i become a recluse. i'm NOT a phone type so that's no help.

but as soon as i DID look at Mexico i started finding things with lots of appeal.
from Wisconsin winters to Vegas summers and monsoons in Viet Nam, and the tornados in Ky, weather is just mother nature stretching her muscles.
the overall weather in lakeside, and places like it, is M.N. taking a break.
i've earned a break. the weather is a big plus, and it's cheaper on elec.

but what really zoomed up my list was the people i've met here (the forum) and the people they tell me about. it must be a slice of heaven wherever most people begin as possible friends instead of competitors of some kind. i need an environment based on being friendly and helpful. and i welcome the chance to do the same without it being seen as a weakness.

most of all i want some of these people to become my friends, even if i have to live in the back of my truck on the edge of town.
if i stayed here i might wind up living "in a van down by the river" but that's a lot worse than it sounds.

so yes, my finances led to me finding Mexico, but what makes me want to go there is to experience the riches it contains, indeginous and imported.


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## wiley.lehman (Jun 22, 2012)

Expat or a tourist must respect traditions of place you are visiting. That's the only way to getting along with people and adapting to new place.


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