# citizenship for daughter and what i need to do for work



## rachelitaly

Hi I am an American citizen and have a daughter that is 3. Her father is an Italian citizen, but at the time of her birth he did not want to be involved. He now wants to be a Dad and be in a relationship with me. I am wanting to move to Italy so that we can live together as a family... but I want to be able to hold my own (ie I don't want him to have to support us)
I am sure I can go thru the citizenship process for my daughter.. but what does this mean for me? How can I live with her and work legally? I do have a job in the USA where I am sure that I could work remote from... just want to make sure I do things the right way, but also ensure that we can be a family.

Any ideas/thoughts/ advice?


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## accbgb

Hmmm...

Well, you have the right to be wherever your underage child is, so if she is in Italy I'm pretty certain you would be granted a Permesso di Soggiorno per Motivi Familiari. Among other things, this would allow you to work legally.

But, I am not entirely certain. You might want to contact an Italian lawyer who specializes in this stuff - Google "Luigi Paiano". He is pretty good about free consultations by email.


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## rachelitaly

Thank you!!!!
I called the Italian consulate in the states and they were not much help... This should at least help me get down the right track!


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## Italia-Mx

You can obtain Italian citizenship for your minor child if you can produce the proper documents, however, this will be difficult to do without permission of the child's father because he (the father) is still alive. Furthermore, if the Italian father in Italy only wants to live with you and not marry you and take responsibility for the child, there would be no visa for you to remain in Italy unless you were married. You could try forcing his family to care for the child (again if you had the proper documents) but that would be easier said than done and expensive as well. Still, though, no visa for you to remain in Italy. Probably why the consulate was not cooperative.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> You can obtain Italian citizenship for your minor child if you can produce the proper documents, however, this will be difficult to do without permission of the child's father because he (the father) is still alive. Furthermore, if the Italian father in Italy only wants to live with you and not marry you and take responsibility for the child, there would be no visa for you to remain in Italy unless you were married. You could try forcing his family to care for the child (again if you had the proper documents) but that would be easier said than done and expensive as well. Still, though, no visa for you to remain in Italy. Probably why the consulate was not cooperative.


Italia-MX, I believe that so long as she can prove that she is the child's mother, then she will be permitted to remain in Italy if the child is there. Even if the child were to live with her father (in Italy), I am pretty certain that the mother would be entitled to a PdiS so that she can be present in her daughter's life.

I agree it will be a complex situation and may require the father's cooperation (which can get even more complex depending on where the father lives). That is why I suggest contacting an attorney.


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## Italia-Mx

This will require total cooperation of the Italian father and whether or not he wants to marry the woman and/or recognize the child. If the mother were already in Italy and the child was born in Italy, the mother may be able to get permission to stay because the minor child is in Italy. But that's not the case here. Good luck.


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## accbgb

From the original post: "He now wants to be a Dad and be in a relationship with me."

Sounds like he would cooperate, don't you think?


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## Italia-Mx

By the way, if they want to live together as a family, they can do so in the United States -- but not until she applies for a fiancée visa for the Italian man and the marriage takes places within the few months allotted before the visa expires. If no marriage happens and the visa expires, he goes home. It will work the same way in Italy for her. No marriage, no visa.


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## Italia-Mx

accbgb said:


> From the original post: "He now wants to be a Dad and be in a relationship with me."
> 
> Sounds like he would cooperate, don't you think?


Yes, as long as he has no objection to marriage. In Italy being in a relationship and being married do not equate. I'm an Italian citizen and I could not help my American companion obtain a visa to live with me in Italy so the consulate suggested we get married. But we didn't have to do that because fortunately my companion is also a recognized Italian citizen through his grand-father and as soon as the consulate processed his case, we returned to Italy together.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> By the way, if they want to live together as a family, they can do so in the United States -- but not until she applies for a fiancée visa for the Italian man and the marriage takes places within the few months allotted before the visa expires. If no marriage happens and the visa expires, he goes home. It will work the same way in Italy for her. No marriage, no visa.


I am going to say again, marriage or no marriage, as the girl's mother she will have the right to remain in Italy if that is where the girl is (legally) located. Italy will not separate a minor child from his or her mother nor a parent from his or her minor child.


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## Italia-Mx

As far as I know Italy does not issue any sort of visa for an American mother of a minor American child to reside in Italy. If the Italian father wants to recognize the child and not marry the mother, the child can stay, the mother cannot. Repeat. The child was NOT born in Italy and the mother never had residence in Italy.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> As far as I know Italy does not issue any sort of visa for an American mother of a minor American child to reside in Italy. If the Italian father wants to recognize the child and not marry the mother, the child can stay, the mother cannot. Repeat. The child was NOT born in Italy and the mother never had residence in Italy.


If the child's citizenship is confirmed, Italy cannot deny the child's right to live in Italy. Nor will Italy deny the mother's right to be present with her minor child. It is just that simple.

We are not going to resolve this here. The OP should contact an attorney.


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## KenzoXIV

accbgb said:


> I am going to say again, marriage or no marriage, as the girl's mother she will have the right to remain in Italy if that is where the girl is (legally) located. Italy will not separate a minor child from his or her mother nor a parent from his or her minor child.



Just playing Devils Advocate and from a position of ignorance:

Currently
Mother: American, Daughter: American
Father: Italian

If varying citizenship issues could not be sorted surely the Mother and Daughter could be deported should the father not be co-opperative or worse the daughter could be ordered to stay with the father after the fact of citizenship for the daughter whereas the mother could be sent home should she not be able to obtain citizenship? It may even be she would have the right to stay but should a legal battle ensue for whatever reason this will be costly and will take a few years to sort out.

Not judging anyones situation just merely pointing out potential pitfalls. 

In any case marriage would be the best security possible! I would be hastened to add (and I am sure he is a nice guy) but you will be moving to his backyard where he will know the rules better than any of us.. If he is not ready to commit to marriage I would be questioning why you are quick to move to his land and any potential motivations he may have for this. 

Why not try to live together in the US first where you will have legal security, move within the midst of an Italian community if it would make him feel more comfortable and give you a chance (and your child) to brush up on the inevitable language skills you will need.

As before I am not judging anyone but seriously consider any consequences to the actions you may be taking. Also, I am as ignorant as can be, I am just looking at the worst case because it is very easy to look at the best case!:decision:

All the best:fingerscrossed:

Kenzo


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## Italia-Mx

KenzoXIV said:


> JIf he is not ready to commit to marriage I would be questioning why you are quick to move to his land and any potential motivations he may have for this.
> 
> Kenzo


Excellent response, Kenzo -- and probably the very first question the consulate asked a single American woman who claims her child's father is Italian was: 

"Are you going to marry the father of your child in Italy". "When, where"? They may have even told her to come back when she has some solid marriage plans.

Remember, the OP already stated the consulate was not very helpful most likely because of the way she answered that question.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> Excellent response, Kenzo -- and probably the very first question the consulate asked a single American woman who claims her child's father is Italian was:
> 
> "Are you going to marry the father of your child in Italy". "When, where"? They may have even told her to come back when she has some solid marriage plans.
> 
> Remember, the OP already stated the consulate was not very helpful most likely because of the way she answered that question.


They can ask anything they want but no law requires that she marry the father. And, as she stated in her first post, the father *wants* to be involved, so it seems likely that he will do what is necessary.

Enough already.


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## Italia-Mx

According to you accbgb, you would be OK with an American woman showing up in Italy with a minor American child. Then with the cooperation of the Italian father, having the child deemed to be an Italian citizen. So while the father does support the child but does not support the mother because he's not interested in marrying her, the mother still has a right to hang around Italy because the child is in Italy. Even if the mother becomes a public charge, according to you she would still have the right to be in Italy. At who's expense? The State? The Italian tax payers? No, I don't think so. We just went to the polls two days ago to try and eventually remedy situations like this. By the way, that would be one irresponsible mother, in my opinion.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> According to you accbgb, you would be OK with an American woman showing up in Italy with a minor American child. Then with the cooperation of the Italian father, having the child deemed to be an Italian citizen. So while the father does support the child but does not support the mother because he's not interested in marrying her, the mother still has a right to hang around Italy because the child is in Italy. Even if the mother becomes a public charge, according to you she would still have the right to be in Italy. At who's expense? The State? The Italian tax payers? No, I don't think so. We just went to the polls two days ago to try and eventually remedy situations like this. By the way, that would be one irresponsible mother, in my opinion.


Oy vey!

I am saying this:

1. The girl's father is Italian. If the father does what is necessary to prove parenthood, then the girl is an Italian citizen with the absolute right to live in Italy.

2. The girl's mother would then qualify for a visa and Permesso per Motivi Familiare because the mother has the right to be present with her minor child.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I "would be OK" with it; it is simply the fact.



> By the way, that would be one irresponsible mother, in my opinion.


And, my gosh, where did that come from? How can you jump to such a conclusion? It seems to me that, if anything, the mother is trying to reunite her daughter with the father and form a family unit, even if not in the totally conventional sense.


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## Italia-Mx

accbgb said:


> Oy vey!
> 
> I am saying this:
> 
> 1. The girl's father is Italian. If the father does what is necessary to prove parenthood, then the girl is an Italian citizen with the absolute right to live in Italy.
> 
> 2. The girl's mother would then qualify for a visa and Permesso per Motivi Familiare because the mother has the right to be present with her minor child.
> 
> This has nothing to do with whether or not I "would be OK" with it; it is simply the fact.
> 
> 
> 
> And, my gosh, where did that come from? How can you jump to such a conclusion? It seems to me that, if anything, the mother is trying to reunite her daughter with the father and form a family unit, even if not in the totally conventional sense.


Permesso Motivi Familiare pertains to people who are related by marriage (as in husband and wife) or to people who are related by blood (as in parents or siblings). It does not apply to an unwed American mother and an unwed Italian father. 

For example, a husband in Italy can apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for his wife in another country to whom he is already legally married. He cannot apply it to his girlfriend to whom he is not married. 

Another example. A naturalized Italian citizen living in Italy can apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for his parents in China so they can reunite with him in Italy. But a three year old Italian child cannot apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for her American mother because she's a minor. If she's still in Italy when she turns 18, then she can apply to bring her mother to Italy.

Obviously you have no idea who qualifies for this type of visa. Do you understand now? An unmarried father and an unmarried mother are NOT a family -- and a child between them doesn't make it so. Only a marriage will make it a family.


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## KenzoXIV

accbgb said:


> Oy vey!
> 
> I am saying this:
> 
> 1. The girl's father is Italian. If the father does what is necessary to prove parenthood, then the girl is an Italian citizen with the absolute right to live in Italy.
> 
> 2. The girl's mother would then qualify for a visa and Permesso per Motivi Familiare because the mother has the right to be present with her minor child.
> 
> This has nothing to do with whether or not I "would be OK" with it; it is simply the fact.
> 
> 
> 
> And, my gosh, where did that come from? How can you jump to such a conclusion? It seems to me that, if anything, the mother is trying to reunite her daughter with the father and form a family unit, even if not in the totally conventional sense.


Ok Ok,

Clearly a touchy subject guys but a few unanswered questions:

Is the father on the birth certificate... If not what is the process for him to prove parenthood and how long would that process take.

After that how long would the process be to Naturalise the daughter to Italy and AFTER that how long would the process be to Naturalise the mother to Italy.

Would any temporary visa cover this expected time period(s) and does such a visa exist?

When all is said and done you need to speak to a lawyer. Realistically though Marriage is YOUR safety net against any potential risks. 

Kenzo


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## KenzoXIV

Italia-Mx said:


> Permesso Motivi Familiare pertains to people who are related by marriage (as in husband and wife) or to people who are related by blood (as in parents or siblings). It does not apply to an unwed American mother and an unwed Italian father.
> 
> For example, a husband in Italy can apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for his wife in another country to whom he is already legally married. He cannot apply it to his girlfriend to whom he is not married.
> 
> Another example. A naturalized Italian citizen living in Italy can apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for his parents in China so they can reunite with him in Italy. But a three year old Italian child cannot apply for a Permesso Motivi Familiare for her American mother because she's a minor. If she's still in Italy when she turns 18, then she can apply to bring her mother to Italy.
> 
> Obviously you have no idea who qualifies for this type of visa. Do you understand now? An unmarried father and an unmarried mother are NOT a family -- and a child between them doesn't make it so. Only a marriage will make it a family.


The essence being what can be CLAIMED and what can be PROVEN.

If the father is on the birth certificate, marriage might not be as important. !!!!!Assuming!!!!! the best of intentions on the fathers part the child could come to Italy and be naturalised and the mother could follow suit once the child has been naturalised.

If the father needs to prove paternity then as far as I can tell until the proof is offered neither the mother or child has any right to perminent residency in Italy and would be considered illegal immigrants should they remain past any visa period. This doesnt mean they will be deported lord knows there are many illegal immigrants here right now all trying to get papers, my only worry is it is a very long queue and where would you be while you wait your turn? Family home in Italy, Immigrant centre, USA? All possibilities.

My advice is simple... DO YOUR RESEARCH, CONSULT LAWYERS, and GET MARRIED!

If you are serious about starting a family start it right i.e. Husband and Wife (I am neither liberal or conservative so lets not get political) but it is very clear that being married will help buearucratically speaking and also it will be a fine test to prove if he is serious, it is very clear you are serious about being a FAMILY in a FAMILY HOME so if he shares that desire tie the knot and save yourselves the ball ache... 

If I move to America with my child claiming the mother is American... How long could I stay before being deported? I don't doubt its the truth but law is law and proof is proof.

As always, no negative judgement on anyones part.. only looking for the right answers/questions.

Regards

Kenzo


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> Permesso Motivi Familiare pertains to people who are related by marriage (as in husband and wife) or to people who are related by blood (as in parents or siblings). It does not apply to an unwed American mother and an unwed Italian father.


But IT DOES apply to a mother and her minor Italian daughter. If that is not related by blood, then what is?


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## KenzoXIV

accbgb said:


> But IT DOES apply to a mother and her minor Italian daughter. If that is not related by blood, then what is?


I think the question is does it work in reverse.

I am Italian by marriage to my wife, my mother is my blood, does this now mean she has a claim to Italian citizenship? Generationally speaking can it work that way?

Can the unwed mother claim Italian citizenship because her daughter has Italian blood. 

It would be a dangerous precedent because if I was a single mother (Which would take more than one miracle ) I could effectively claim my childs father was of any nationallity and earn their citizenship... at least up until the country I refused to leave would be able to prove the child did not have that blood.

Strange legalities we live in...

Kenzo


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## Bevdeforges

The question of whether or not the father is named on the child's birth certificate has come up, but I don't think the question was answered. I suspect that might be the critical point here, because if the father was not named on the birth certificate, it's going to take some process and lots of paperwork to demonstrate that the child is, indeed, entitled to Italian citizenship.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx

accbgb said:


> But IT DOES apply to a mother and her minor Italian daughter. If that is not related by blood, then what is?


I just told you in my last post that a three year old Italian child cannot apply for this visa for her foreign mother because she's a minor. If the child is still in Italy when she's 18, at that time she can apply for a Motivi Familiare for her mother. And the mother is not related to the father so he can't apply either.


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## Italia-Mx

Bev, if he recognizes the child, the child will be Italian. But that doesn't do anything for the foreign mother. Only marriage to the Italian father will help her. However, if she's wealthy, she might qualify for an elective residence visa.


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## Italia-Mx

KenzoXIV said:


> I am Italian by marriage to my wife, my mother is my blood, does this now mean she has a claim to Italian citizenship? Generationally speaking can it work that way?
> 
> Can the unwed mother claim Italian citizenship because her daughter has Italian blood.
> 
> It would be a dangerous precedent because if I was a single mother (Which would take more than one miracle ) I could effectively claim my childs father was of any nationallity and earn their citizenship... at least up until the country I refused to leave would be able to prove the child did not have that blood.
> 
> Strange legalities we live in...
> 
> Kenzo


Yes, Kenzo you can apply for your mother to reunite with you in Italy. After required number of years residence, she can apply to be naturalized.

No, the unwed mother cannot apply for Italian citizenship through the Italian daughter because the daughter is a minor aged three. When daughter turns 18, she can apply to reunite her mother and mother can be naturalized after required number of years residence.

Your last paragraph. Yes, I agree. This is why consulate was not much help. Consulates are not dumb.


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## Bevdeforges

Italia-Mx said:


> Bev, if he recognizes the child, the child will be Italian. But that doesn't do anything for the foreign mother. Only marriage to the Italian father will help her. However, if she's wealthy, she might qualify for an elective residence visa.


Yes, but how does the Italian father "recognize" the child? In some countries, "recognizing the child" is done by putting the father's name and nationality on the child's birth certificate (ostensibly at birth). I just wonder how someone would "recognize" a child as their own if the original birth certificate was issued without the father's name. I suppose it would somehow involve getting a retroactive change made to the original birth certificate, which is probably not easy to do.
Cheers,
Bev


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## GeordieBorn

I feel a little sorry for the OP here, but if she steps back and takes heed of the advice offered (and warnings) perhaps it will be of some help in the end. On that note I wish her and her daughter all the very best.


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## Italia-Mx

Bevdeforges said:


> Yes, but how does the Italian father "recognize" the child? In some countries, "recognizing the child" is done by putting the father's name and nationality on the child's birth certificate (ostensibly at birth). I just wonder how someone would "recognize" a child as their own if the original birth certificate was issued without the father's name. I suppose it would somehow involve getting a retroactive change made to the original birth certificate, which is probably not easy to do.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Probably DNA, lawyers, Italian courts. A long road.


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## KenzoXIV

GeordieBorn said:


> I feel a little sorry for the OP here, but if she steps back and takes heed of the advice offered (and warnings) perhaps it will be of some help in the end. On that note I wish her and her daughter all the very best.


It is true, at the end of this thread there will be someone with a genuine issue that they need to resolve. 

The OP should take heart in the fact that even in disagreement it is because people want to offer their best advice.

Obviously people know what you tell them. When I advise get married I am speaking purely from a beurauecratic (one day I will spell that word correctly :smash: ) point of view and whether he is 'The right man for you' is a whole different issue that I could not possibly begin to say. 

Obviously I wish you the best and of course we are here if you want more advice.. :tea:

Kenzo


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## accbgb

I direct you to here Stranieri - Documentazione, ricongiungimento familiare

The last paragraph of the section heading "Permesso di soggiorno per motivi di famiglia" states (in English translation) "the foreign parent, also natural, of an Italian minor living in Italy. In this case, the residence permit for family reasons is issued even without the possession of a valid residence permit, on condition that the parent applying has not been deprived of parental rights under Italian law."

And so, I say again: if the father legally recognizes his daughter and the daughter is determined to possess Italian citizenship and the daughter resides in Italy, then the non-Italian mother can be granted permission to stay on that basis alone.

Italia-MX, in this and many other posts, you seem to be determined to deny Italian residence to as many people as possible. Is this your mission? To keep the stranieri out?


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## rachelitaly

All
I appreciate your thoughts on all of this, and I thank you for your advice.

I am not an irresponsible mother. I am not asking for help as to how my daughter will become an Italian citizen. Her father is more than willing to do whatever necessary to get her, her citizenship. She is 1/2 Italian and deserves to be able to live by her father as well as have dual citizenship. I am an incredibly responsible parent and I am excited for the chance that my daughter has to have a family. 
That being said... I am not at all trying to request to become an Italian citizen. I am trying to find a solution so that we can be parents as effectively as possible, obviously living across the world will not work and will not create the ties that are so viable to a child while growing up.

I also am not trying to quickly jump into marriage. I am not opposed to doing it if it will help us, but based on the research I have done even if we were to get married I would not be legal to work for a few years. 

I personally believe the most responsible decision is for me to be able to at least hold my own. I don't want to become dependent of someone just because they fathered my child... even if him and I work out a relationship... I am not asking to become a citizen or to have the state take care of me and my child. She is my dependent as much as his, so if she lives there with him as an Italian citizen I am just looking for a way to be able to help support her and be near to her and her father as we go thru the long drawn out process of what it would take to get married if that is what we decide to do. 

I contacted the lawyer that was advised to me- and I agree getting someone that understands the law is the best option. So far I have not had a response... so I look forward to hearing from him.

My daughter and I will fly out the end of February for 2 weeks to have more discussions with my daughters father, as well as spend time with her Italian extended family with whom I have become incredibly close.. I want to be knowledgeable of what my rights and options are so that I can make the best decision for my family.

Based on further reading it sounds like Permesso Motivi Familiare would work for me since I am the parent of a dependent child who is Italian by birthright. My reading tells me that it is a human rights violation to separate children from their parents because of citizenship and Italy is one of the countries that uses Permesso Motivi Familiare for this sort of reason. 

If anyone has any other lawyers that I might be able to contact so that I can figure out by law what all the requirements are for my daughter to get her citizenship, as well as someone that is familiar with Italian law and what my options are, I would greatly appreciate it 

Again thanks for all of your comments.


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## accbgb

rachelitaly said:


> ...
> Based on further reading it sounds like Permesso Motivi Familiare would work for me since I am the parent of a dependent child who is Italian by birthright. My reading tells me that it is a human rights violation to separate children from their parents because of citizenship and Italy is one of the countries that uses Permesso Motivi Familiare for this sort of reason.


Exactly.

Good luck, Rachel. I think you are on the right path.


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## Italia-Mx

Rachel, why do you think it's OK that your baby's father would need a fiancée visa and then a marriage certificate to be able to live with you and your daughter in the USA but you don't think a similar requirement should exist for you in Italy? 

If you don't get married and your husband's family doesn't take care of you and you become a public charge, do you think it's OK to be supported by the State or by taxpaying Italian citizens? Do you also happen to have a dinghy? Maybe you could just float on over -- like hundreds of thousands of others have already done who are being supported by the state. 

As an Italian citizen, personally I think it's time for the hand-outs to stop. Italy should implement immigration laws similar to those already in existence in the USA and others that will be implemented after January 2017. We had a big election in Italy a few days ago. The current administration lost by a large margin with lax immigration laws being partly responsible for the defeat.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> Rachel, why do you think it's OK that your baby's father would need a fiancée visa and then a marriage certificate to be able to live with you and your daughter in the USA but you don't think a similar requirement should exist for you in Italy?
> 
> If you don't get married and your husband's family doesn't take care of you and you become a public charge, do you think it's OK to be supported by the State or by taxpaying Italian citizens? Do you also happen to have a dinghy? Maybe you could just float on over -- like hundreds of thousands of others have already done who are being supported by the state.
> 
> As an Italian citizen, personally I think it's time for the hand-outs to stop. Italy should implement immigration laws similar to those already in existence in the USA and others that will be implemented after January 2017. We had a big election in Italy a few days ago. The current administration lost by a large margin with lax immigration laws being partly responsible for the defeat.


So, the truth comes out - this is not about the law, it is about keeping the stranieri/freeloaders out of Italy.

Under the law as it stands today, Rachel has every right to be in Italy with her Italian citizen daughter. Probably well into the future as well because, as Rachel points out, this is seen as a human rights issue and Italy - thankfully - believes more in human rights than President-Elect Trump. You may not like it, Italia-MX, but that is the law.

My overall impression at this moment is that Italia would do well to have more Rachels and fewer Italia-MXs among her population.

And no, I did not vote for Donald Trump and yes, I did vote in favor of Matteo Renzi.

[edit]

Also, it seems quite clear that Rachel is not in danger of becoming a "public charge."


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## rachelitaly

Italia-Mx said:


> Rachel, why do you think it's OK that your baby's father would need a fiancée visa and then a marriage certificate to be able to live with you and your daughter in the USA but you don't think a similar requirement should exist for you in Italy?
> 
> If you don't get married and your husband's family doesn't take care of you and you become a public charge, do you think it's OK to be supported by the State or by taxpaying Italian citizens? Do you also happen to have a dinghy? Maybe you could just float on over -- like hundreds of thousands of others have already done who are being supported by the state.
> 
> As an Italian citizen, personally I think it's time for the hand-outs to stop. Italy should implement immigration laws similar to those already in existence in the USA and others that will be implemented after January 2017. We had a big election in Italy a few days ago. The current administration lost by a large margin with lax immigration laws being partly responsible for the defeat.


I am not asking at all for your opinions on immigration and what you think is morally the right thing to do. Thanks for your input and views, however this is a forum for Expats trying to help build each other up, to succeed in life. This particular thread was not at all a thread on peoples thoughts or feelings on the referendum or immigration laws in general. I certainly did not state anywhere that I was looking for a handout.

Feel free to start a post and express your opinions on such topics in a thread that is relevant to the topic of the thread. That is what forums are for.


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## Italia-Mx

The losers in the US election were sore losers too. Well, you win some and you lose some but change WILL be coming to Italy. Get used to it.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> The losers in the US election were sore losers too. Well, you win some and you lose some but change WILL be coming to Italy. Get used to it.


You know, I don't have a problem with your views - they are your beliefs and you have every right to have them. To some degree, I might even agree with you.

But, you do not have the right to deliberately try to mislead Rachel or anyone else regarding her legal right to come to Italy if that is her desire.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, we're not really here to discuss what Italy's immigration policies should or shouldn't be. It sounds like Rachel is heading in the right direction and has some idea what hurdles are ahead of her. Nothing she is doing or proposing is in violation of any immigration laws that any of us are aware of.

If you want to discuss immigration policies - in Italy or any other country - maybe you should take it to one of the off topic sections of the forum.
Cheers,
Bev


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## KenzoXIV

Bevdeforges said:


> OK, we're not really here to discuss what Italy's immigration policies should or shouldn't be. It sounds like Rachel is heading in the right direction and has some idea what hurdles are ahead of her. Nothing she is doing or proposing is in violation of any immigration laws that any of us are aware of.
> 
> If you want to discuss immigration policies - in Italy or any other country - maybe you should take it to one of the off topic sections of the forum.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Completely agree. This is about Rachels issue and any answers should be specific to her. Politics etc should be well away from here.

In any case I hope you have had some useful insight to what questions may be asked of you down the road and potential pit falls as well as some encouraging news along the way.

Lawyers are the key, they will know more than we ever will. 

Regards

Kenzo


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