# Newbie with a few Questions RE:Property etc



## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Hi All 

Just doing a bit of research into the possibilities of moving to spain with the view of buying a property with land and scope of building/renovating a barn conversion to rent out to tourists, Me my Wife Michelle and Baby Henry are looking to move out to spain within the next 2 to 3 years and wondered if anyone of you friendly Ex-Pats could help us out with the information needed?


Firstly can you recommend any good property websites? the ones i've seen tend to be for new builds and buildings that need very little work, im after researching ex-farm type buildings with land and small outhouses. 

Im not sure which part of spain we'd be looking to move to but we would prefer it if it was a popular area with Ex-pats (or nearby) Near an Airport, Within 20 mins drive of the coast and obviuously have a tourist trade of some sort, any ideas?


When we do sell up we should have around £60k to invest in a property and would prefer it if we could live on the earnings from renting out the preposed barn conversion rather than having to work as well, do you think that would be acheiveable? 

We're holidaying in Spain Next june and would like to have some areas in mind by then so we can check them out.

Thanks in advance 

Rich, Michelle and Henry.x


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

RichnMich said:


> Hi All
> 
> Just doing a bit of research into the possibilities of moving to spain with the view of buying a property with land and scope of building/renovating a barn conversion to rent out to tourists, Me my Wife Michelle and Baby Henry are looking to move out to spain within the next 2 to 3 years and wondered if anyone of you friendly Ex-Pats could help us out with the information needed?
> 
> ...


Hiya and welcome!

Well thats a pretty long and open ended question to answer! I think I would start by saying its difficult to predict how things will be in the property and tourist markets in 2 to 3 years time.......its changing almost weekly at the moment! and given the economic climate who knows where it will end up! so for that Im finding it difficult to provide you with any real answer...

What I would say is that 60k isnt going to give you many opportunities Im afraid. Particularly if that money also includes renovations and paying your own salary/living costs whilst you are doing it. Dont forget you also need approx 11% on top of the property price for legal fees / taxes etc when buying in Spain which will reduce your budget somewhat. Plus a lot of Country properties that need real renovation (which Im taking you are looking for?) have problems associated with them in that new laws were brought in to prevent extensions etc beyond a certain limit depending on the plot size ... a lot were illegal in the first place so trying to sort out all the paperwork to check may not be an easy task. .... god I dont mean to sound to negative! lol .... maybe someone here has a much brighter answer than this one! 

I am of course basing my answers on my experience here on the South Coast / Inland of the Coast - maybe other areas of Spain offer more options with that sort of budget and with that sort of property.

Best of luck
Sue :ranger:


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, It's exactly the news i thought i'd here TBH, i think our budget needs raising!! I really don't want to have a mortgage when we do make the move but i guess if we get a small one to up our budget by 20-30k we could (if we can lol).

So any idea of spanish property websites?


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

RichnMich said:


> Thanks for the reply, It's exactly the news i thought i'd here TBH, i think our budget needs raising!! I really don't want to have a mortgage when we do make the move but i guess if we get a small one to up our budget by 20-30k we could (if we can lol).
> 
> So any idea of spanish property websites?


Hi Rich .... hope I didnt put you off too much! lol  certainly wasnt my intention!

I usually mention the same website - kyero - purely because its a search site directing you to lots of agents. Although to be honest Im not sure if they have the type of property you are looking for - Country properties that need a lot of renovation mmmmmmmmm - if you choose an area for example "Alhaurin el Grande" and then contact the agents in that area they probably have stuff on their books that fit the bill .... Alhaurin fits in terms of location to the coast / airport / tourists etc so maybe a starting point just to give you an idea of prices here in the South.

Without a specific location giving a real estate company website is difficult, but the kyero site covers a lot of areas of spain so again may be a good starting point.

Sue


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Dont be silly Sue your comments were taken as constructive as i'm sure they were Intended..

I'll have a look on the mention website, but i think you right its moe about choosing a location at the moment. 

Rich


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow Alhaurin is way too expensive.. When i have searched before i've come across places like the below which would be the kind of thing im after but in a popular location and then the price would go through the roof and as you stated before would i be allowed to renovate the outhouses etc.. My head hurts


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

4 post, can i post links now??


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Wont let me post the link for some reason??


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

maybe cos im using quick post?


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

i give up


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

RichnMich said:


> Wont let me post the link for some reason??


You should be able to post links Rich - not sure why you are having a problem. What area was the property in and what state was it in ???? and what price were they asking ?

Its a catch 22 ..... really rural properties are probably a lot cheaper - but then it takes you away from the tourist areas and the airports ..... another thing to consider is whether or not you could live entirely off the profits of a rental property ? There is a lot of it about - some friends of ours flew back to the uk last week having been over here renting a finca (country house) for 2 weeks ... they paid almost 2000 euros for the fortnight, but this was the main summer weeks, private pool, fully reformed finca with air con / modern bathroom/kitchen etc ... and the owner has managed to rent it out for just 7 weeks so far this year ..... but they dont rely on the income to live, they have a big pension! lucky them!

A lot for you to consider!! 

Sue :ranger:


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> You should be able to post links Rich - not sure why you are having a problem. What area was the property in and what state was it in ???? and what price were they asking ?
> 
> Its a catch 22 ..... really rural properties are probably a lot cheaper - but then it takes you away from the tourist areas and the airports ..... another thing to consider is whether or not you could live entirely off the profits of a rental property ? There is a lot of it about - some friends of ours flew back to the uk last week having been over here renting a finca (country house) for 2 weeks ... they paid almost 2000 euros for the fortnight, but this was the main summer weeks, private pool, fully reformed finca with air con / modern bathroom/kitchen etc ... and the owner has managed to rent it out for just 7 weeks so far this year ..... but they dont rely on the income to live, they have a big pension! lucky them!
> 
> ...


€54,000 3 bedroom country house for sale 
Galicia, A Coruña, Narón
With out buildings LINK


Yeah i doubt we'd be able to live off the rental income alone so would probably have to try work, we have a small business idea that could work but i defiantly dont want to rely on it. I suppose it all depends on the economy at the time really. Any way lots of time to think and stew about all this.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

RichnMich said:


> €54,000 3 bedroom country house for sale
> Galicia, A Coruña, Narón
> With out buildings LINK
> 
> ...


Good luck with the "thinking and stewing" Rich!

You have plenty of time if you are considering this in a couple of years .... so take that time! Please please remember (Im sure you know this already) that when you get to the time of looking seriously at property that you use a good Lawyer and do everything the right way! Use the same caution and care as you would buying something in the UK .... the laws are different but the results are the same if you just start handing money over without all the relevant checks etc etc.

Best of luck and stay in touch to let us know how you get on.

Sue


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I would say use more caution than if you were buying in the UK, if somethings too good to be true, then it is!! Spain has some horrendous property laws, both in buying and renovating, nothing is simple. You cannot simply buy a rundown place in Spain and do it up... no, no, no!!! Look into it before you part with any money, trust me, you will come across the most unbelievable and ridiculous laws!!!

Jo xx


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Ok thanks Ladies, Night school here i come, time to learn the lingo i think!


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## MarkM (Aug 5, 2009)

*Spain*

I think that Sue hit the nail on the head when she suggested that the £60k will present a problem, especially as a) you don't want a mortgage nor b) will this be readily available. The budget needs raising!

The other thing that I would say from my years of experience here is that such projects are full of problems! It would be bad enough trying to do what you want to do back in the UK but here in Spain the levels of bureaucracy are much deeper and full of woes.

Whatever you decide in the end the general view is that you must have lived here for at least a year to get to understand such issues. Rent to be sure of the area, and then go from there.

And, no matter what, always, ALWAYS use a top class and recommended (not by anyone in the arrangement) independent solicitor. Preferably English.

Good luck!


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks Rose,

Yeah the more i think about what you Ladies are telling me the more i can see its not going to happen how i first thought, I'm now looking into the buisness idea to see if i can get that off the ground before we start looking at property and ill take it from there... 


i might need a sales REP out there anyone up for a a bit of part time work


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

RichnMich said:


> €54,000 3 bedroom country house for sale
> Galicia, A Coruña, Narón
> With out buildings LINK
> 
> ...


You need to be careful when buying a renovation property in a rural area like that because you may not be able to do what you want to do with it. Even given the permissions, theres a lot of money going to be poured into that place to make it livable, and has it mains water and electricity?


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> You need to be careful when buying a renovation property in a rural area like that because you may not be able to do what you want to do with it. Even given the permissions, theres a lot of money going to be poured into that place to make it livable, and has it mains water and electricity?



Cheers Stravinsky, Well that was just an example of what i originally thought would be a good idea but as i have no experience of the spanish legal system and from the advice i've had on here i'm now thinking such a project is not going to be a viable option. 

Rich


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm extremely risk adverse so I'm not the best person to advise but..........my extreme caution has helped keep us afloat in difficult times.
At this point in the current economic cycle I would not recommend starting up a business in Spain (or in the UK for that matter) as practically every sector of the economy is feeling the pinch. Tourism down, a million plus unsold properties and property prices still falling - not a good time for a new venture. But I admit that 's a very pessimistic view and may not be true of all types of business and in all areas of Spain, which is after all a huge country. Here on the Costa del Sol there are very many businesses which keep going on a wing and a prayer and you'd have to have a very new and exciting proposition to have a chance of succeeding in such an adverse climate.
IMHO anyone coming here to start a new life should ideally have enough 'spare' money to fund them for a year, just in case. That and a good exit strategy if it all goes pear-shaped.
But this crisis won't go on for ever so maybe the best course is to keep stewing it over, make frequent fact-finding trips and don't be put off by Jeremiahs like me!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm extremely risk adverse so I'm not the best person to advise but..........my extreme caution has helped keep us afloat in difficult times.
> At this point in the current economic cycle I would not recommend starting up a business in Spain (or in the UK for that matter) as practically every sector of the economy is feeling the pinch. Tourism down, a million plus unsold properties and property prices still falling - not a good time for a new venture. But I admit that 's a very pessimistic view and may not be true of all types of business and in all areas of Spain, which is after all a huge country. Here on the Costa del Sol there are very many businesses which keep going on a wing and a prayer and you'd have to have a very new and exciting proposition to have a chance of succeeding in such an adverse climate.
> IMHO anyone coming here to start a new life should ideally have enough 'spare' money to fund them for a year, just in case. That and a good exit strategy if it all goes pear-shaped.
> But this crisis won't go on for ever so maybe the best course is to keep stewing it over, make frequent fact-finding trips and don't be put off by Jeremiahs like me!



Theres room for all viewpoints on a forum mrypg9, so dont worry about being cautious and pessamistic. Its the diversity of opinions on forums like these that makes them useful and invaluable tools when making life changing decisions!! We all allowed to have our views!

However, I try to be optimistic cos I believe that its optimism that will help change things for the better!!??? But, yes caution is advisable, especially in these troubled times

Jo xx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi RichnMich,

Couldn't help noticing you mentioned Galicia!! Tis where we are!! There's a few rural type properties - especially ones to renovate - old farmhouses, etc....I'll see if I can't look up some websites for this area for you a bit later and post them. Again though, you'll need to look into the legalities (although mainland Spain, it is also an autonomous community) and therefore has it's regional "legalities" as well, including those pertaining to converting a property for casa rural/touristic means. Lugo may well be an area to consider as there is a larger expat community there....or possibly Monforte de Lemos. Again, Google is your friend!!

Tallulah.


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Well to shed some light on my "business Plan" i'll give you some insight to the idea..

Currently in the UK my father-in-law owns a plastic manufacturing company and currently manufactures (amongst other things) Plastic non-slip flooring for use on Canal boats and flooring for kitchen areas (it has anti-bacterial stuff on it) There are other similar products in the uk which are much more expensive and he originally made it for his own canal boat, the sales he makes on this product are minimal and are through Ebay with some word of mouth business as he doesn't have a sales force as such to put behind it, I'm thinking if i contact marina's and the like i should be able to make a living in Spain selling this flooring, the Market in Spain should be so much bigger than in the uk because of the Pools etc.. 

Very early days but im definitely going to follow this one through..

Rich


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> Hi RichnMich,
> 
> Couldn't help noticing you mentioned Galicia!! Tis where we are!! There's a few rural type properties - especially ones to renovate - old farmhouses, etc....I'll see if I can't look up some websites for this area for you a bit later and post them. Again though, you'll need to look into the legalities (although mainland Spain, it is also an autonomous community) and therefore has it's regional "legalities" as well, including those pertaining to converting a property for casa rural/touristic means. Lugo may well be an area to consider as there is a larger expat community there....or possibly Monforte de Lemos. Again, Google is your friend!!
> 
> Tallulah.



Hi Tallulah

Whats the tourist trade like round your neck of the woods? Although i don't think it will be viable im still not ruling it out yet  

I think as a family we would prefer to be in a rural area over a busy town so would still be interested for any links you might find

Cheers,

Rich


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

RichnMich said:


> Hi Tallulah
> 
> Whats the tourist trade like round your neck of the woods? Although i don't think it will be viable im still not ruling it out yet
> 
> ...


Hi Rich,

Well, I hope you've been brushing up on your Spanish - as the link I've posted to a Galician tourism website is below. I think you can switch it to Castellano from the Gallego option - I believe I mentioned it was an autonomous province, and therefore has its own language as well! Have your dictionary handy - although it will show you the region well.

GALICIA-TURISMO-TURGALICIA

Galicia is in the north west of Spain. Its provinces are : La Coruna, Ourense, Lugo & Pontevedra. It was quite an undiscovered gem - mainly visited upon by the Spanish, although as I said there are some expat enclaves attracted to some of the cheaper properties in Lugo. A couple of other forum members are based in Monforte de Lemos and hopefully might comment on their particular area later.

There are larger "cities" and towns - two very good airports running fairly cheap flights - Santiago de Compostela and La Coruna (both RyanAir and ClickAir) to Heathrow and Gatwick.

Galicia is known for its wonderful countryside, beaches, culture, fiestas etc - but the link will provide you with much more information else my post will go on and on and on!

A couple of good inmobiliaria websites (property) are :

tukasa
inmocoruna

But if you use "google es" (the Spanish web pages) and enter inmobiliaria and area then it will list plenty more!

Tallulah.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Theres room for all viewpoints on a forum mrypg9, so dont worry about being cautious and pessamistic. Its the diversity of opinions on forums like these that makes them useful and invaluable tools when making life changing decisions!! We all allowed to have our views!
> 
> However, I try to be optimistic cos I believe that its optimism that will help change things for the better!!??? But, yes caution is advisable, especially in these troubled times
> 
> Jo xx


My problem is that I have sudden attacks of severe 'spendthriftitis' then spend days doing income/expenditure calculations in my head...
But generally, I tend to be cautious. 
I was reckless and impulsive when I was young so maybe I'm experiencing a delayed reaction


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Rose FP said:


> I think that Sue hit the nail on the head when she suggested that the £60k will present a problem, especially as a) you don't want a mortgage nor b) will this be readily available. The budget needs raising!
> 
> The other thing that I would say from my years of experience here is that such projects are full of problems! It would be bad enough trying to do what you want to do back in the UK but here in Spain the levels of bureaucracy are much deeper and full of woes.
> 
> ...


Im not sure this is the case - A Spanish lawyer who can speak English surely ? A Spanish Lawyer is more likely to have the relevant experience, knowledge and awareness of the laws - also if its a property in a rural or semi rural area the chances are some negotiations are going to be with the sellers own Lawyer / notary, even the sellers themselves - and they are going to be Spanish speaking with no guarantee of English. 

Sue :ranger:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Suenneil said:


> Im not sure this is the case - A Spanish lawyer who can speak English surely ? A Spanish Lawyer is more likely to have the relevant experience, knowledge and awareness of the laws - also if its a property in a rural or semi rural area the chances are some negotiations are going to be with the sellers own Lawyer / notary, even the sellers themselves - and they are going to be Spanish speaking with no guarantee of English.
> 
> Sue :ranger:



I agree Sue, you need not only a good Spanish Lawyer, but someone who knows (inside out) the area in which you're dealing with. Yes, it helps if they speak English, but first and foremost its the knowledge and their trustworthyness thats important. Spain and its individual regions have some weird and wonderful property laws

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Hello RichnMich, I have similar plans as yourselves . I suggest Spanish property for sale: Find 100,000 Spanish properties for sale for searching for properties. Initially set your search criteria to Euro 50k and see what comes up. Next narrow your search to regions. If you are into tax planning I can recommend the following site, Spanish Inheritance Tax Planning - Home Part 1. The recommend buying Spanish property through a UK Ltd Company. Their fee is the equivalent of what one would pay in Notary fees & VAT when buying a propert so it looks like a win/win proposition.
good luck George


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## RichnMich (Aug 5, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> Hello RichnMich, I have similar plans as yourselves . I suggest Spanish property for sale: Find 100,000 Spanish properties for sale for searching for properties. Initially set your search criteria to Euro 50k and see what comes up. Next narrow your search to regions. If you are into tax planning I can recommend the following site, Spanish Inheritance Tax Planning - Home Part 1. The recommend buying Spanish property through a UK Ltd Company. Their fee is the equivalent of what one would pay in Notary fees & VAT when buying a propert so it looks like a win/win proposition.
> good luck George


Thanks JBoden

I'll be sure to check that 2nd site out the first one was suggested already earlier in the thread.

*Good News (for us Brits wanting to sell up)*

UK house prices are on the rise again!!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> Hello RichnMich, I have similar plans as yourselves . I suggest Spanish property for sale: Find 100,000 Spanish properties for sale for searching for properties. Initially set your search criteria to Euro 50k and see what comes up. Next narrow your search to regions. If you are into tax planning I can recommend the following site, Spanish Inheritance Tax Planning - Home Part 1. The recommend buying Spanish property through a UK Ltd Company. Their fee is the equivalent of what one would pay in Notary fees & VAT when buying a propert so it looks like a win/win proposition.
> good luck George


Its a start, but property web sites over here are often useless as they are not updated often. I know it was different, but when we came here 3 years ago most of the stuff on sites was either sold, taken off the market or the price had changed. Best way is to come here and visit the estate agents.

As for the second link, well I can only tell you that I banned the poster of that site from several forums for pretending to be a third party to introduce their services. The first one was when they said that they knew someone who had used the method with success.  Maybe not the best of business practices


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Its a start, but property web sites over here are often useless as they are not updated often. I know it was different, but when we came here 3 years ago most of the stuff on sites was either sold, taken off the market or the price had changed. Best way is to come here and visit the estate agents.
> 
> As for the second link, well I can only tell you that I banned the poster of that site from several forums for pretending to be a third party to introduce their services. The first one was when they said that they knew someone who had used the method with success.  Maybe not the best of business practices



Well if you think its "dodgy" Strav, then in my opinion its dodgy. You're the most trustworthy person on here!!! 

And yes, I'm inclined to agree with you about Kyero, we've just been looking at properties and I'd say probably only about 10% on there in area were available, not the most reliable site, but it does give you an idea of whats out there!!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Thank's for the warning. It seems that I will have to tread carefully when I meet with them.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> Thank's for the warning. It seems that I will have to tread carefully when I meet with them.


I've had a quick look at it, seems a pretty pointless company to me, but what do I know, I'm blonde
Jo


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> Thank's for the warning. It seems that I will have to tread carefully when I meet with them.


Well make sure you do, Strav knows his stuff and wouldnt say something like that on the forum if he didnt know something

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> Well if you think its "dodgy" Strav, then in my opinion its dodgy. You're the most trustworthy person on here!!!
> 
> And yes, I'm inclined to agree with you about Kyero, we've just been looking at properties and I'd say probably only about 10% on there in area were available, not the most reliable site, but it does give you an idea of whats out there!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I cant say if it is dodgy ..... I just wondered why, on more than one forum, a company has to "misrepresent" itself to introduce its services


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

I think the thing to remember with the Kyero site is that its hundreds of agents all registering their properties on one main site - and so its down to the individual agent to keep their own stuff updated on there which they dont always do!! The reason I tend to use it is less for the actual properties on there - but that you can click through each property to find all the agents websites - once you get to them they are usually more up to date.

When you dont know where to start - just having a list of agents to start wading through can help .... but to be honest people who arent in Spain yet should just use it as a taster for whats out there, and to start some correspondence with a couple of chosen agents - and only really start to look seriously when they can get over here and meet the agents face to face ...

Sue :ranger:


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> I cant say if it is dodgy ..... I just wondered why, on more than one forum, a company has to "misrepresent" itself to introduce its services


I'll certainly ask them that, the next time I contact them.


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