# Why do Flats & Apartments dominate Spain's housing market ?



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Interesting report in BBC Worklife about how Flats and Apartments came to dominate
Spain's housing market.

BBC Worklife - Looks at Spain's Flats and Apartment housing market


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Interesting.

I note that the article doesn't touch on another particularly Spanish mentality that houses are a security risk.

It seems very common that the Spanish are afraid of being robbed / attacked in a "unifamiliar" home than in a flat in a block. I wonder if this is statistically correct or if it also the result of propaganda?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I note that the article doesn't touch on another particularly Spanish mentality that houses are a security risk.
> 
> It seems very common that the Spanish are afraid of being robbed / attacked in a "unifamiliar" home than in a flat in a block. I wonder if this is statistically correct or if it also the result of propaganda?


I've not heard that one! Presumably it's only common amongst people who live in flats?

In general Spanish towns and cities are densely populated and lack the suburban sprawl that's so common in Britain, with millions of semi-detached homes with their own little guardens, a legacy of Ebeneezer Howard's town planning movement and the availability of cheap mortgages. They were nearly all built before WW2; after that came the switch to high-rise flats because of the cost of land.


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## fortrose52 (Nov 29, 2018)

Yet in villages most folk live in town houses often extended for generational use.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's not something unique to Spain. France, Germany, all until recently had more rented than owned properties and in towns mainly apartments. But then city centres in these countries are also residential unlike the UK where they are nearly always exclusively commercial, although I gather that it's becoming trendy to live in apartments in the centre of cities like London, Manchester, Glasgow.

In Poland and the Czech Republic it was usual for more than one family to occupy a single house, one upstairs, one downstairs. When I spent time in Krakow, Poland in the 1970s it was usual for several families to occupy one apartment, one room which served as bedroom, dining room, living room plus shared kitchen and bathroom/WC.. I lived with two other people in a small room in a communal apartment like that, in a beautiful late 19th century house off the Market Square which must have housed grand apartments for well-off middle-class families before the war. To get to the kitchen you had to go through someone else's bedroom living room etc. There was zero privacy.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I've not heard that one! Presumably it's only common amongst people who live in flats?


I guess so. I have had several people ask me why people in the UK don't have bars on their windows in their houses. For them the fact that a house has windows at ground level makes it a prime target for robberies. I know that we have had this conversation on here already, but I've always thought it is a shame that Spanish houses are spoiled by having metal bars on the windows.

My sister in law has a house in the country (with bars) and to burgle her, they used a chain winch to pull the bars out of the wall. It cost her more to repair the window, wall and bars that it did to replace what was stolen.... 

I have also spoken to people who have openly said that they would be worried in a single family house because they "aren't safe". And yes, it is clear that these people live in flats ,probably high ones!

In fact I wonder how much this is influenced by the fact that in the cities, a chalet (or house) is seen as a weekend retreat rather than a permanent home, and therefore they are more likely to be robbed simply because they are unoccupied for predictable periods of time.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It's good not to have rejas on our windows now that we live in a flat, mainly because I don't have to clean or paint them any more and it was a fiddly job.

What intrigues me is why Spanish people who live in flats don't (well not where I live, anyway) seem to make use of their balconies or terraces, when they have them. The only Spanish neighbours of ours who do occasionally have a meal on their terrace is the family in the ático opposite ours - nobody else does, in 2 blocks with 40 apartments each, nor do they just sit on their balconies ,not even during the lockdown. Nobody makes use of the communal roof terrace of the building either, apart from one or two who use the washing lines at one end. When we used to live in a house, none of our Spanish neighbours ever used their roof terraces for anything but hanging out washing either.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It's good not to have rejas on our windows now that we live in a flat, mainly because I don't have to clean or paint them any more and it was a fiddly job.
> 
> What intrigues me is why Spanish people who live in flats don't (well not where I live, anyway) seem to make use of their balconies or terraces, when they have them. The only Spanish neighbours of ours who do occasionally have a meal on their terrace is the family in the ático opposite ours - nobody else does, in 2 blocks with 40 apartments each, nor do they just sit on their balconies ,not even during the lockdown. Nobody makes use of the communal roof terrace of the building either, apart from one or two who use the washing lines at one end. When we used to live in a house, none of our Spanish neighbours ever used their roof terraces for anything but hanging out washing either.


I've noticed that too. I've only lived in one place with a balcony which is our present house and we only ever used it for hanging out the washing, but we do have a garden to be out in. We made it part of a bedroom and don't have it now. A friend of mine recently moved into a flat with a balcony and I said, but you won't use it, but she does, for 2 reasons 1. It looks out onto the Alhambra in Granada and it is a stunning view I have to say and 2. She's American


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

My block has 13 floors and 4 flats per floor, each flat has one facade for its balcony so it is quite nice because there are no neighbouring balconies.

Of the 13 on our side, only 2 still have the balconies open, ours and another further up. All tyhe others have closed them in to make them part of the interior space.

I wonder how many have regretted that in the recent weeks.

But when we went looking for places, the agents proudly told us of the ones who had "already closed in the balcony" as if it was a job saved for the future. They looked genuinely surprised when we said that we would have to factor in the cost of reinstating it.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm always toying with the idea of moving to a house in one of the suburbs further out of Madrid, but I fear I'll end up living in a gilded cage, without much entertainment or social life. Since we've been allowed to leave the flat I usually bump into someone I know on the streets, and I think it's great that my kids grow up in a barrio surrounded by friends. I just wish we had a garden!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> My block has 13 floors and 4 flats per floor, each flat has one facade for its balcony so it is quite nice because there are no neighbouring balconies.
> 
> Of the 13 on our side, only 2 still have the balconies open, ours and another further up. All tyhe others have closed them in to make them part of the interior space.
> 
> ...


Yes having a balcony was important for us when searching for a flat. Ours is only 10m2 but it's enough to eat out on. It doesn't get used much in winter though, and I can see why some neighbours have closed theirs in, especially as their families grow.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Chopera said:


> Yes having a balcony was important for us when searching for a flat. Ours is only 10m2 but it's enough to eat out on. It doesn't get used much in winter though, and I can see why some neighbours have closed theirs in, especially as their families grow.


Ours is about the same size, but we have a cupboard for my tools, the kids scooters, a wooden bench, a folding table and four seats, a Thai spirit house and more importantly, lots of plants on ours. I just can't imagine not having it, and we spend a lot of time on it.

But I hear you about the house. We are always talking about a house in the mountains, or on the coast. But it would have to be a second home, for weekends or for when working from home is a long term solution. It could never be our only home, we'd go crazy. 

But the days of owning two homes were for the past generation, not ours. We will be paying off the mortgages on our first homes until we are in our 70s, not like the original inhabitants of out flats in the 70s / 80s who had paid for it before they hit 50.

It's ironic when you read that the flats were a cheap solution in their day, yet now, when we dreamily browse through houses for sale in mountain villages, we are amazed how cheap they are (to buy, at least) compared to our urban specks of diamond dust.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Like it or not, flats are part of modern urban living. London is a great example of this - everywhere you look new apartment blocks (many high-rise) are going up, and indeed many older terraced houses are converted into bedsits and flats. As for being "cheap", no they're not in prosperous cities that have had a lot of economic growth, but still a lot less expensive than buying a stand-alone house. Of course if you go to rural locations and/or towns that have seen economic decline, you will find cheaper houses (and lower demand for flats), particularly in places that are not so easy to get to. Houses in places like Grimsby or Middlesbrough are very cheap compared to a London flat or even a Brighton place. It's the same in Spain, a flat in Madrid, Bilbao or Barcelona will be a lot more expensive than an old villa or house in a deserted village in interior Galicia or Soria.
Of course things "may" change in the future. People may avoid bustling cities and their mass-transit systems if this pandemic stays with us. Who knows?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

webmarcos said:


> Like it or not, flats are part of modern urban living. London is a great example of this - everywhere you look new apartment blocks (many high-rise) are going up, and indeed many older terraced houses are converted into bedsits and flats. As for being "cheap", no they're not in prosperous cities that have had a lot of economic growth, but still a lot less expensive than buying a stand-alone house. Of course if you go to rural locations and/or towns that have seen economic decline, you will find cheaper houses (and lower demand for flats), particularly in places that are not so easy to get to. Houses in places like Grimsby or Middlesbrough are very cheap compared to a London flat or even a Brighton place. It's the same in Spain, a flat in Madrid, Bilbao or Barcelona will be a lot more expensive than an old villa or house in a deserted village in interior Galicia or Soria.
> Of course things "may" change in the future. People may avoid bustling cities and their mass-transit systems if this pandemic stays with us. Who knows?


I hope so to be honest. Not only for the economic effect of evening out the price differences you highlight, but also to get people back into the "España vacia" (not talking about Ayuso's head this time).
I hate seeing beautiful historic buildings collapsing into ruins in the countryside when there are executives paying 6 figure sums for apartments in major cities.

I know that in the UK there was quite a controversy about "rich" townsfolk buying properties in the country because it increased the demand and price for the locals, but I think that here is Spain this is now needed.

I have already expressed my doubts as to how much the working environment will change, but as Pesky (I think it was) pointed out, as soon as companies realise how much they can save by having smaller offices, with lower energy bills, less parking spaces, etc. maybe we will eventually be able to spend 6 days a week away from the towns and only go into the office once a week, then who cares if it is 400 kms away?

But how many people would decide to sell their city flat to buy a rural dwelling? Maybe not as many as we would like to think. People have become addicted to city life.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I hope so to be honest. Not only for the economic effect of evening out the price differences you highlight, but also to get people back into the "España vacia" (not talking about Ayuso's head this time).
> I hate seeing beautiful historic buildings collapsing into ruins in the countryside when there are executives paying 6 figure sums for apartments in major cities.
> 
> I know that in the UK there was quite a controversy about "rich" townsfolk buying properties in the country because it increased the demand and price for the locals, but I think that here is Spain this is now needed.
> ...


Yes in the UK it's very much the case that city dwellers dream of buying a place in the country whereas here in 
Spain it's not a popular choice.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Williams2 said:


> Yes in the UK it's very much the case that city dwellers dream of buying a place in the country whereas here in
> Spain it's not a popular choice.


I grew up in a village 150 miles from London in the 1980s.

I clearly remember a couple from London bought a house and worked from home, with him going into London once a week. That was about 35 years ago!

They were probably ahead of their time even in the UK, but it's amazing that we are just talking about this in Spain now.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> But how many people would decide to sell their city flat to buy a rural dwelling? Maybe not as many as we would like to think. People have become addicted to city life.


A surprising number of Spanish have homes in the campo as well as the city. Not necessarily because they are wealthy, but because their families lived and worked there in the past and the properties were never sold when the younger generation moved to the cities to find work.

They keep them for recreation (including hunting) and they are passed down through the generations so the upkeep, shared between up to ten families, is minimal.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> A surprising number of Spanish have homes in the campo as well as the city. Not necessarily because they are wealthy, but because their families lived and worked there in the past and the properties were never sold when the younger generation moved to the cities to find work.
> 
> They keep them for recreation (including hunting) and they are passed down through the generations so the upkeep, shared between up to ten families, is minimal.


I do know of people in this situation, but I also know of some who had to sell the family houses in the last recession. I expect that the number of families who can continue to maintain the family home in the campo or pueblo will further decrease after Covid.

I recently saw an ad on Wallapop of someone who was giving away the family home in a pueblo (Guadalajara I think it was) because the town hall had ordered compulsory repairs which the family couldn't afford to carry out. An extreme case maybe.

But I think that the model of home ownership going forwards is not to rely on people having second homes, more that people should be able to have their only home out of a city. Even when a few consecutive days are required in the office, hotels could be paid by the companies considering that their office overheads could be drastically cut under this "new model", if it ever arrives...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I do know of people in this situation, but I also know of some who had to sell the family houses in the last recession. I expect that the number of families who can continue to maintain the family home in the campo or pueblo will further decrease after Covid.
> 
> I recently saw an ad on Wallapop of someone who was giving away the family home in a pueblo (Guadalajara I think it was) because the town hall had ordered compulsory repairs which the family couldn't afford to carry out. An extreme case maybe.
> 
> But I think that the model of home ownership going forwards is not to rely on people having second homes, more that people should be able to have their only home out of a city. Even when a few consecutive days are required in the office, hotels could be paid by the companies considering that their office overheads could be drastically cut under this "new model", if it ever arrives...


I think the main reason they haven't been sold is because nobody wants to buy them!

Because Spain is underpopulated, multiple home ownership doesn't present the same problems it does in the UK or other countries with a shortage of housing. 

In an ideal world, were I in that situation I would live and work from my home in the pueblo and go to the city once a month or so to check into the office, do a bit of shopping and go to a gig or concert. But I appreciate others prefer to live in the city and escape to the campo.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

I recall coming across a few advertisements during the last recession of the odd whole entire village
or hamlet being vacated because the families that lived there moved away to the city long ago. 
Usually in some out of the way place in Spain up in the mountains somewhere but there was an
opportunity for people to become, Lord of the Manor in Spain; assuming they could find the tenants
to return to such deserted villages and hamlets in the first place.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> I recall coming across a few advertisements during the last recession of the odd whole entire village
> or hamlet being vacated because the families that lived there moved away to the city long ago.
> Usually in some out of the way place in Spain up in the mountains somewhere but there was an
> opportunity for people to become, Lord of the Manor in Spain; assuming they could find the tenants
> to return to such deserted villages and hamlets in the first place.


 These advertisements are still going and were not really related to the recession. There have been abandoned villages in Spain since forever I think!

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191121-can-tiny-abandoned-towns-put-galicia-on-the-map


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

Williams2 said:


> Yes in the UK it's very much the case that city dwellers dream of buying a place in the country whereas here in
> Spain it's not a popular choice.


I think it's more the case that families moved en masse to the big cities in search of work, and often kept their place "in the village" for weekends, holidays and for the grandparents. Always surprised me how Madrid would de-populate at puente weekends with people popping back to their "pueblo". 
Those places are fine if they are maintained, but those without mains electricity or water can be very difficult to live in. Also, away from the Med coast you have very severe cold weather in winter as well as the heat in summer to cope with. 
It may change now of course, but families who'd moved to the bigger city, would then look first at buying property for their sons and daughters in that city, so they'd be close to work/study opportunities.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Overandout said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I note that the article doesn't touch on another particularly *Spanish mentality that houses are a security risk*.
> 
> It seems very common that the Spanish are afraid of being robbed / attacked in a "unifamiliar" home than in a flat in a block. I wonder if this is statistically correct or if it also the result of propaganda?


It seems to me that this is a more recent mentality that post-dates the 1960s.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Overandout said:


> My block has 13 floors and 4 flats per floor, each flat has one facade for its balcony so it is quite nice because there are no neighbouring balconies.
> 
> Of the 13 on our side, only 2 still have the balconies open, ours and another further up. All tyhe others have closed them in to make them part of the interior space.
> 
> ...


It provides more interior living space, especially when there are 5, 6 or more in the family, and, as the article indicates, the Spanish would normally go outside the home into public spaces, cafés etc. to enjoy the outdoors and socialise at the same time, at least in urban areas - for example the paseo is a very longstanding tradition and TBH towns and cities have long invested significantly in such areas.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

EverHopeful said:


> It seems to me that this is a more recent mentality that post-dates the 1960s.


I totally agree. 

But I think that it is still another factor which keeps demand for single houses lower than in other countries.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

EverHopeful said:


> It seems to me that this is a more recent mentality that post-dates the 1960s.


The newer built houses in Madrid tend not to have bars on windows, although they might have other security features that make them redundant. Such as being in a gated urbanisation.

It's the older houses that always seem to have bars on the windows. I guess it might have once been a requirement to get house insurance.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> The newer built houses in Madrid tend not to have bars on windows, although they might have other security features that make them redundant. Such as being in a gated urbanisation.
> 
> It's the older houses that always seem to have bars on the windows. I guess it might have once been a requirement to get house insurance.


Every house in my pueblo has rejas, at least on the ground floor. We get a discount on the insurance because of it (along with a deadlock on the door) but I don't think it's a requirement. It means you can go out and leave the window open. I'd feel quite insecure without them now.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Chopera said:


> The newer built houses in Madrid tend not to have bars on windows, although they might have other security features that make them redundant. Such as being in a gated urbanisation.
> 
> It's the older houses that always seem to have bars on the windows. I guess it might have once been a requirement to get house insurance.


It depends how old you mean, because even in the 60s there remained many areas where women were supposed to cast their eyes down when in proximity of men who were not members of their family or husbands, and at home where windows gave onto the street the rejas were used to provide a degree of privacy to women inside, which is why they tended to be adorned with plants. Those attitudes have totally changed, of course, and it's a good thing. The concern about burglary though, did start to occur with the influx of tourists around that time; I can assure that before then it would have rarely been for insurance purposes.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> The newer built houses in Madrid tend not to have bars on windows, although they might have other security features that make them redundant. Such as being in a gated urbanisation.
> 
> It's the older houses that always seem to have bars on the windows. I guess it might have once been a requirement to get house insurance.


 I've written before about our "urbanización". There are houses with bars on, but the majority don't have them. This originally was a group of houses built for people living in Madrid as weekend and summer houses built last 70's early 80's. That could be why some have bars on; because they were likely to be empty for periods of time. It's not a gated urb. and is very "normal". There are a variety of urbanizaciones around here, some very posh and exclusive, some under 20 houses, some huge...the great majority ungated.
I've heard this insurance thing before on the forum, but we've never been asked if we've got bars on the windows and we've changed house insurance several times... Will check what it says


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## fortrose52 (Nov 29, 2018)

Some people say it is a relic of symbolisation of 'invasion' prevention. Others that it was a feature even until early seventies of women not mixing with the opposite sex. Chaperoning was the norm outside of the house. There was strict protocols re family honour. Potential Novios could on occasion - fiesta/feria days speak to the girls via the rejas, as you say, often with plants in-between.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

A row house isn't that different than an apartment. There are condos built in row house style instead of tall apartment block . 

On the security front of course an isolated country home is more risky than a town home with many others around. People built homes inside the city walls because it was safer. Luckily we don't have armies wandering across the countryside but it's still safer . 

In Spain can you legally just close off a balcony? Here you'd need planning permission and good luck getting that legally.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> A row house isn't that different than an apartment. There are condos built in row house style instead of tall apartment block .
> 
> On the security front of course an isolated country home is more risky than a town home with many others around. People built homes inside the city walls because it was safer. Luckily we don't have armies wandering across the countryside but it's still safer .
> 
> In Spain can you legally just close off a balcony? Here you'd need planning permission and good luck getting that legally.


Yes you have to get planning permission


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've heard this insurance thing before on the forum, but we've never been asked if we've got bars on the windows and we've changed house insurance several times... Will check what it says


When living in our old house the insurance conditions were that we had to have rejas (or security shutters) on windows which were less than 3m above the ground.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> Yes you have to get planning permission


But nobody does.

As NickZ, getting permission to change the appearance of an external facade is not easy.

It is also usually against the statutes of the community, but again, it goes un-sanctioned due to the difficulties in taking people to account legally.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> When living in our old house the insurance conditions were that we had to have rejas (or security shutters) on windows which were less than 3m above the ground.


Yes with so many houses and apartments in Spain having shutters and all ( or it seems all ) new builds being built
with shutters which adds extra protection in itself, is there really any point in having bars on your windows as well ?

Although I've never looked into this myself - is there a Spanish law or bylaw that houses & apartments must have
window shutters or is it just a traditional requirement ?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> Yes with so many houses and apartments in Spain having shutters and all ( or it seems all ) new builds being built
> with shutters which adds extra protection in itself, is there really any point in having bars on your window as well ?


Even the shutters that lock into the wall are less secure than bars.

But in the end the question is how serious are the thieves in your area?  Most of these things will stop the bored teenager but if somebody REALLY wants in even a brick wall won't stop them. 

There was a story last year about thieves that broke into an apartment. The door couldn't be opened so they used a masonry saw to cut a hole in the wall. Problem for the thieves the owner was an old school teacher and his place was full of books and nothing else . Seems they looked around and left empty handed. 

Best security might be to have nothing worth stealing.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

NickZ said:


> Even the shutters that lock into the wall are less secure than bars.
> 
> But in the end the question is how serious are the thieves in your area?  Most of these things will stop the bored teenager but if somebody REALLY wants in even a brick wall won't stop them.
> 
> ...


Suffice to say it would be rare to find a home or ground floor apartment with bars on the windows and no window
shutters either. I think many home owners would opt for a metal front door before considering shutters or bars
on their windows over in the UK.

Particularly if they think crimminals might get hold of the same piece of equipment that the Police use to break
down doors and get into homes in the UK called The Enforcer.
Which is strange when going through the window is lot less bother.

UK Police - The Enforcer battering ram


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

We had a case round the corner from our old house where the thieves had cut through the rejas then stuck them back together with black gaffer tape after they'd got out of the house, so at first glance it appeared as though nothing had happened.

When we were burgled they didn't bother with the rejas, just smashed the (wooden) front door in - and happened between 12.00 and 2.00 pm whilst we were out shopping.

A number of our neighbours had similar break-ins over a period of a few months, when they had only gone out for a short time. They were obviously all committed by the same people who were watching residents' movements.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We had a new front door made a few years ago, coated metal with a stained-glass window panel. The company that made it insisted that there had to be rejas over the glass! Fortunately I managed to incorporate the vertical lines into the design.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> Yes with so many houses and apartments in Spain having shutters and all ( or it seems all ) new builds being built
> with shutters which adds extra protection in itself, is there really any point in having bars on your windows as well ?
> 
> Although I've never looked into this myself - is there a Spanish law or bylaw that houses & apartments must have
> window shutters or is it just a traditional requirement ?


 Shutters don't keep burglers out. They jack them up.
As somebody else said, if they want to get in they will no matter if you have an alarm system, shutters, walls, bars. I don't think they can be kept out. What you can do is not have stuff worth stealing or keep it well hidden and by that I don't mean a safe because if you are in the house they can make you open it. Have some dummy stuff ready to give them, or just give them what you have!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> But nobody does.
> 
> As NickZ, getting permission to change the appearance of an external facade is not easy.
> 
> It is also usually against the statutes of the community, but again, it goes un-sanctioned due to the difficulties in taking people to account legally.


I don't think you need planning permission, it's just permission from the comunidad de vecinos. I think usually there is a rule of precedence. If one person has closed their balcony then the neighbours can't really object to anyone else doing so. Our previous flat was a new build and when people moved in they rushed to close off their balconies before the comunidad de vecinos was formed, so nobody could object. One neighbour even bricked up their terrace to create another room (it was a large atico terrace). I don't think anybody could be bothered taking them to court.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I don't think you need planning permission, it's just permission from the comunidad de vecinos. I think usually there is a rule of precedence. If one person has closed their balcony then the neighbours can't really object to anyone else doing so. Our previous flat was a new build and when people moved in they rushed to close off their balconies before the comunidad de vecinos was formed, so nobody could object. One neighbour even bricked up their terrace to create another room (it was a large atico terrace). I don't think anybody could be bothered taking them to court.


I think you need both; approval from the comunidad de vecinos and planning permission. Let's face it, if you supposedly need planning permision to change the tiles in your bathroom, you'll have to have permission to change the outside of a block of flats.
In our case we needed planning permission, and the comunidad could have objected if there was anything to object to. We live in an "adosado"


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I think it's a terminology issue. Planning permission as such doesn't exist here, but in Madrid certainly you do need a licence of works to alter any external aspect of a building, even changing the windows. 
I would be surprised if that's not the same in all other municipalities. 
As Pesky says, even some internal works require licence.

But again, very few people actually apply.

In fact, some funcionarios don't seem that keen to comply either. We went to ask if we needed a licence for some work when we knocked down an internal dividing wall. Technically we did need one but in the town hall they said that if we weren't doing work on the outside walls, we shouldn't apply.... 

That was a very lax interpretation of the rules in my opinion, but I wasn't going to argue!


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Overandout said:


> I do know of people in this situation, but I also know of some who had to sell the family houses in the last recession. I expect that the number of families who can continue to maintain the family home in the campo or pueblo will further decrease after Covid.
> 
> I recently saw an ad on Wallapop of someone who was giving away the family home in a pueblo (Guadalajara I think it was) because the town hall had ordered compulsory repairs which the family couldn't afford to carry out. An extreme case maybe.
> 
> But I think that the model of home ownership going forwards is not to rely on people having second homes, more that people should be able to have their only home out of a city. Even when a few consecutive days are required in the office, hotels could be paid by the companies considering that their office overheads could be drastically cut under this "new model", if it ever arrives...


Friends who have had their rural home on the market since the start of the year, without a single inquiry, have suddenly been asked for viewings. Their estate agent says he has started to receive inquiries from wealthy Spanish clients looking for luxury homes in rural locations, especially those within an hour's drive of cities. Lockdown has, apparently, made people rethink the advantages of a rural house, especially one with a pool and surrounded by a few hundred olive trees. He predicts that city-centre apartments, especially those without access to outside space, will see a substantial drop in value following the Covid experience.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> Lockdown has, apparently, made people rethink the advantages of a rural house, especially one with a pool and surrounded by a few hundred olive trees. He predicts that city-centre apartments, especially those without access to outside space, will see a substantial drop in value following the Covid experience.


If you need to work from home you likely need access to high speed internet. Something that will always be less available outside the city centre.

Also while it's nice to have an outdoor space many of those rural areas are limited in other ways. If you're in an area with ONE shop and it's short of something you're going to be hurting. 

I'm sure some people are going to want a place outside the city but didn't many of those rural areas basically ban non locals during the lock down?


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Every house in my pueblo has rejas, at least on the ground floor. We get a discount on the insurance because of it (along with a deadlock on the door) but I don't think it's a requirement. It means you can go out and leave the window open. I'd feel quite insecure without them now.


I don't want to spoil your feeling of security but in any DIY store these days you can buy a cordless angle grinder for under €100 and it will cut through metal bars like a hot knife through butter! Sophisticated monitored alarm systems with cameras are now available at a fairly reasonable cost and provide far better peace of mind.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

NickZ said:


> If you need to work from home you likely need access to high speed internet. Something that will always be less available outside the city centre.
> 
> Also while it's nice to have an outdoor space many of those rural areas are limited in other ways. If you're in an area with ONE shop and it's short of something you're going to be hurting.
> 
> I'm sure some people are going to want a place outside the city but didn't many of those rural areas basically ban non locals during the lock down?


High speed internet can be a problem although for speeds of around 20 mbs there are now systems that serve isolated rural properties. When I bought my rural house 12 years ago the only internet available was 3G with a mobile phone, and it was next to useless. I now have a satellite system and WiMax which are both totally reliable (I kept the satellite system after the cheaper WiMax became available because it gives me a UK IP address and access to UK TV streaming). I didn't see any evidence of non-locals being banned from our area during lockdown although they no doubt broke the law coming to their second homes. Many isolated properties in the mountains around us had lights on at night which we normally only see in the summer months!


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Working from home is about more than download speed. You may need to upload those large files you've been working on. You likely want/need commercial grade reliability. Something no consumer company is going to give you. 

But even if you're just an average family. A couple with two kids. You might have three TVs streaming different programs. Or maybe both kids are studying online with virtual classes. Soaking up bandwidth both ways.


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