# Sticky  Why France? And why not...



## Bevdeforges

We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?" 

Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)

So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin. 

(If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Bevdeforges

And I'll get things started here, since I'm very often the one asking the question of newcomers.

Let's assume for this thread that we're talking exclusively post-Brexit (i.e. that British citizens will need a long-stay visa and all the related registrations that go with that).

The first thing you need to ask yourself is Why France? Wouldn't it be easier to move somewhere within your home or current country and avoid the immigration hassles, plus surround yourself with familiar things? (Especially for those in retirement.)

And also why France? And not Spain, Italy, Germany or the Netherlands?

Are you looking for someplace "close" to home so you can visit (and be visited by) friends and family? Consider the annoyances of having to change sides of the road (if you're planning on driving) or the vagaries of "seasonal" airport or train schedules. (Post-Brexit there is no guarantee that driving licenses will be exchangeable on the same basis that they are currently. Though that's a one-time issue.)

OK, I'll yield to some of the other expat "experts" here.
Cheers,
Bev


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## VERITE1

Not an expert but here's my contribution.

Don't underestimate the language difficulties. Most people have school/holiday phrasebook French but to live in France and be able to cope with day to day living you really need to prepare.

Obviously you can get by with little, but the frustrations will be endless and you may end up avoiding contact rather than seeking it out which is counterproductive.

So if possible learn as much as you can before you make the move.


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## EuroTrash

For me, the biggest challenge was recovering from the financial blip caused by changing countries and having to adjust, so I'll chip in on this aspect.

What will your revenue sources be?

Have you looked at how income tax is calculated in France? Also the so-called 'social charges'? And social security contributions if you will be working? Social charges in France are probably the highest in the EU, whereas in the UK they're lower than average, so the difference is noticeable.

If you're relying on unearned income and it's on the low side, have you checked out France's minimum income requirement and are you confident you have enough of a cushion in case the exchange rate heads south? (this applies if you move under FoM, if you go through immigration it will be checked for you by the authorities)

If you're planning to carry over your current activity from the UK, either as an employee or self employed or business owner, have you looked into that side of things? Moving to France means you are fiscally resident here and you have to comply with French law, which is not necessarily the same as UK law, and international treaties if applicable. You can't just carry on as if you still lived in the UK. (again, only an issue really if you move under FoM and nobody checks to see you are doing things correctly and meeting your obligations)


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## Leforgeron

VERITE said:


> Not an expert but here's my contribution.
> 
> Don't underestimate the language difficulties. Most people have school/holiday phrasebook French but to live in France and be able to cope with day to day living you really need to prepare.
> 
> Obviously you can get by with little, but the frustrations will be endless and you may end up avoiding contact rather than seeking it out which is counterproductive.
> 
> So if possible learn as much as you can before you make the move.


I think that Verité nails the most important thing. To have a full life here and enjoy everything that France offers (and as noted above, to avoid a lot of frustrations) , you must be proficient in the language. If you are not prepared to make the effort necessary to do that, then you really need to think twice about coming here.


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## EuroTrash

I can't turn this into a question exactly, but my main piece of advice would be, Never assume anything. 
So many people say "We're coming to France and we're going to do this that and the other", they sound so sure about it all like it's all decided, and as soon as you read it you think: "But you can't do that here" or "Well there's nothing to stop you but I just don't think it will work, because X Y and Z".
I think that Brits have a tendency to vastly understimate the implications of coming out of one system and going into a different system. It turns you back into a child, you have to start finding out the basic things that every French adult knows instinctively.


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## 95995

If you revenue is from outside the Eurozone, have you considered the potential impacts of adverse exchange rates in the longer term? It's no joke, in recent years the AUD/EUR exchange rate has dropped from around 0.80 to 0.61 or 0.62; that kind of fall coupled with inflation has the potential to turn the dream into a nightmare for those without a reasonable financial buffer.


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## Bevdeforges

All excellent points, gang. Thanks and keep them coming.

I add one thought to the "language" issue. While you won't ever develop "fluency" until you are here and forced into using the language, you do need a firm basis to a certain extent.

"English speaking doctors" can be difficult to almost impossible to find outside of very large cities (mainly Paris). This goes double if you're talking about specialists.

France is known for its bureaucracy, and once you're past the visa phase, there are virtually NO forms from the Administration that are in any other language than French. The same goes for the instruction forms for such things as the tax forms. 

And one measure of your language ability is whether or not you could report an "emergency" situation in French. You should assume you would not be able to find someone in an urgent situation who can speak English. You might want to practice (before you get here) how you would contact the police, or get an ambulance or report an traffic accident or emergency medical situation (heart attack, stroke, fall, etc.) in French. Doesn't have to be fluent, but you need to at least be able to describe what service you need and where you are located so they can reach you.


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## Bevdeforges

One other response we get here on the forum pretty frequently is that people want to move to France "for the relaxed lifestyle."

OK, for those folks retiring from a hectic job situation, you may get considerable relief from all that stress simply by retiring. Don't underestimate the stress relief inherent in simply NOT having to get up and go to work everyday in crazy traffic wherever you are already located. 

Moving to France on retirement will provide you with plenty of stress of a different kind (language, bureaucracy, new customs, new habits, etc.) so plan accordingly.

If you plan on working in France, there are plenty of stressful elements here - learning a new tax system, new labor laws and practices - even if your commute is reduced or eliminated. (And if you're doing work in or around Paris, you may find work life in France little different from the old slog "back home.")


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## VERITE1

Something that you can't plan for but have to face and adjust to when you do move to France is the difference in attitudes.

Both in the workplace and on a social level, the French tend to function differently and it is not always easy interpreting the messages that they send out.

People working together rarely socialise although this is changing. Coffee, tea breaks are rare although again this is slowly changing too as people become more mobile geographically and discover other practises.

People who change jobs frequently are frowned upon and regarded as unstable: having a job for life is considered highly desirable. Etc etc.

Socially, the French mix much more with their families than with neighbours. Popping round to a neighbour's for coffee is (almost) unheard of.

And if you call round with some cupakes you have baked their embarrassment may be seen as rudeness which is rarely the case.

And as has been said above, the better you speak French the easier it will be to understand situations that are strange to you.


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## 95995

Not such pleasant topics, but if you are retiring to France, you should think about 


Whether your chosen property will be suitable as you age
What you will do if you or are your partner should need to go into an aged care facility, what is available in your chosen area and the cost - you probably know how that works in your home country, but likely not how it works in France. 
What the remaining partner would do should one of you pass away.


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## 95995

*Health cover*

For those not relocating to take up a job, consider how the French system will apply to you and note that it is effectively compulsory to join the system once you have been resident for more than 3 months and certainly once you have submitted a French tax declaration. (You can, of course, post a question on this forum about how it applies in your particular circumstances.)

Note that the French health system is a contributory one, generally only covers 70% of costs and most often on a reimbursement basis.

If you are not working, you will receive a bill from URSSAF after your income tax notice has been issued. Those working may also receive a bill if they have other income that is not taxed at source in France.

Top up insurance cover is available and you will not be penalised on the basis of age or previous health issues.


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## 95995

*Taxes*

Think about what taxes will apply to you, eg.

Income tax
Taxe d'habitation (being phased out but still applicable to many based on income)
Taxe foncière​
Remember also that it is up to you to take the initiative when the time comes to submit your first income tax declaration.


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## Nomoss

DON'T base your expectations of France on British TV programmes!

You might be able to let that "gite" for 500€ per month, but only during the short holiday season - 2 to 3 months MAXIMUM - and you'll have to pay taxes and social charges on the income generated, as well as paying to advertise it.

It can be VERY COLD in winter in most of France.

It can be VERY HOT in summer in some parts of France.


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## Foard

Thank you for starting this thread. You bring up interesting and valid points...Why voluntarily move to France when other options are available?

I was thinking about retiring in France in a couple of years (I grew up there but moved to the US when young) but am starting to reconsider. A couple of things I find hard to accept in France:

A: France is a universe where nothing is possible due to excessive and overwhelming regulations and bureaucracy.

B: (closely related to A above) The French, who claim to be great defenders of freedom, love to live under a parental and encroaching government that totally runs and administers their lives, and would not have it any other way. A serious contradiction, IMO


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## Nomoss

Foard said:


> A: France is a universe where nothing is possible due to excessive and overwhelming regulations and bureaucracy.
> 
> B: (closely related to A above) The French, who claim to be great defenders of freedom, love to live under a parental and encroaching government that totally runs and administers their lives, and would not have it any other way. A serious contradiction, IMO


I'm unsure about how you arrived at such sweeping generalisations, but.

A. Everything (almost) is possible in France, but every country is different, and some people coming here have difficulty in getting their heads round that.

To the French, everything in their country is normal.


B. The French are used to living in France, under French laws and rules. They do not understand, nor appreciate, foreigners telling them anything is wrong.

To the French, everything in their country is normal.


Now substitute "France" and "French" with the names of any country and its people.


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## Bevdeforges

I'll add a bit to Nomoss's comments here:



> A: France is a universe where nothing is possible due to excessive and overwhelming regulations and bureaucracy.


It can seem that way at first. However the French notion of government is that the government's first obligation is to "protect" its people. And it does that through regulation. Ultimately, the bureaucracy is treated as something of a game and once you figure out the rules, you learn how to slide through with a minimum of hassle.

Just a note, too: It is mostly the Americans who feel this way in the initial stages. It may have something to do with the legacy of the monarchy in most of Europe.



> B: (closely related to A above) The French, who claim to be great defenders of freedom, love to live under a parental and encroaching government that totally runs and administers their lives, and would not have it any other way. A serious contradiction, IMO


Again, a mainly American point of view. I know I certainly appreciate having a national health care system I can fall back on without having to worry about major medical "incidents" draining our life savings. But like all systems, it takes living here a while to get used to how things work and to appreciate some of the benefits. 

Though, if that's how you feel about France, you're very welcome to remain back in the US and enjoy your "freedoms." 
Cheers,
Bev


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## EuroTrash

Foard said:


> The French, who claim to be great defenders of freedom, love to live under a parental and encroaching government that totally runs and administers their lives, and would not have it any other way. A serious contradiction, IMO


The thing about freedom is, if individuals have unlimited freedom they're soon going to start getting in each other's way. One person wants to be free to party all night or build a monstrosity, or exploit his workers, results in neighbours being kept awake or having to live with an eyesore on their doorstep, and an increasing gap between rich and poor. So, you need legisltation to set the boundaries within which everyone can enjoy their freedom without impinging on other people's freedoms. I think the French understand that pretty well.

And as you've probably noticed, if the French don't like the laws that are being brought in they make some noise about it! and sometimes, get them changed.

I'm actually trying to think of a single thing I've wanted to do here and found impossible. Not thought of one yet.


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## Rion

France is beautiful, with or without socializing ...


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## Rion

et ils ont beaucoup de sens de l'humour


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## Bevdeforges

Rion said:


> France is beautiful, with or without socializing ...


That's a good point. You'll see lots of (sometimes heated) discussions about the need to "integrate" and how to do so. The fact is that, how and to what degree you decide to integrate is very much up to you.


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## Steve Foley

Yes and having lived and worked here for almost 6 years now I can agree that integration is a very individual matter.

I am an INTJ Introvert and as such do not enjoy nor participate in Social Functions except with very close friends and then only a well trusted handful. I also like to keep my working life and personal life in my leisure time as separate as is possible and there are some French customs I have adapted to but some British habits I have retained. For example I am not into shaking hands every time I meet the same people day on day but do so as it is expected and not to cause offence special occasions , part of that is owing to me having been being a Freemason for the last 30 years and to us a handshake has special significance and is not a throw away gesture given as a matter of course but one that, Lodge Meetings apart, is only given on special occasions such as meeting a person for the first time, to congratulate them on some event etc. As for kissing women I hardly know *FORGET IT, they get a handshake as well as the men. They seem to accept it as I am British and we are known for our Sang Froid.

I also do not eat lettuce so either ask for no salad when dining, or it is left on the plate. Likewise I love to drink wine or a glass of bier blonde with my meal but not water, and have an Armagnac to finish but would really prefer a large Latte or Café au Lait than a small cup of plain coffee. As for dark meat such as Steak, Duck etc, Well Done or Bien Cuit for me not any form of rare or with pinkness or blood. This is probably heresy to many French people but at home I have a large mug of instant coffee with coffee-mate and as I have T2D i use Canderelle sweetener not sugar. These matters apart I like the greater courtesy of the French, the Bonjours, Bonsoirs etc and that if they bump into you accidentally they will say pardon. I have only met 3 deliberately rude French people in almost 6 years here.

As I work late shift I do not do not join organisations as most have their meetings here on weekday evenings and weekends apart my only non working day is Wednesday. Being an Introvert that doesn't actually bother me to be honest. 

I do love the French Work-Life Balance, their Written Constitution and secular State and the Codified legal system rather than the UK Common Law, and am glad I took the option to move here to live and work in the Spring of 2013 and consider France as my home. I also totally buy into the French Concept of the Government protecting its citizens and its duties to them and theirs to it being spelled out rather than the Anglo-American paradigm.*


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## VERITE1

This is what it's all about, finding a balance between the life you have lived until you move here and the new life you embark on. Taking on board what you are happy with and adapting while at the same time remaining yourself.

It's easier in the larger cities than in small village communities because you are less visible but rewarding wherever you are.


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## Rion

And French films are really nice and no matter the genre, relaxing.


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## Steve Foley

EuroTrash said:


> The thing about freedom is, if individuals have unlimited freedom they're soon going to start getting in each other's way. One person wants to be free to party all night or build a monstrosity, or exploit his workers, results in neighbours being kept awake or having to live with an eyesore on their doorstep, and an increasing gap between rich and poor. So, you need legisltation to set the boundaries within which everyone can enjoy their freedom without impinging on other people's freedoms. I think the French understand that pretty well.
> 
> And as you've probably noticed, if the French don't like the laws that are being brought in they make some noise about it! and sometimes, get them changed.
> 
> I'm actually trying to think of a single thing I've wanted to do here and found impossible. Not thought of one yet.


The only restrictions I have found having lived and worked for nearly 6 years now in la belle France is the French Sunday being rather like it was in England until the restrictive Sunday Trading Laws were liberalised in the UK, and that many over the counter medicines which in the Uk can be bought in "Mr Patel's Corner Shop" are only available from Pharmacies here in France but there are very many pharmacies here compared to Uk Towns, I can think of three within easy distance of my flat.


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## Matt Le

*WHY France*

As i am searching which country to live in, i found this lovely idea by the OP, WHY France as opposed to Spain, Italy etc.

Sadly Brits always Hijack a thread with Correctness wrangling!! The reason i want to escape this miserable country.


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## Steve Foley

Matt Le said:


> As i am searching which country to live in, i found this lovely idea by the OP, WHY France as opposed to Spain, Italy etc.
> 
> Sadly Brits always Hijack a thread with Correctness wrangling!! The reason I want to escape this miserable country.


I am Scottish and you won't get Political Correctness from me although I do NOT go out of my way to insult people unless they insult me or what I consider precious. I DO have strong views on Politics and Religion but again I try not to couch them in offensive terms.


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## LipstickAndBaguettes

I just stumbled upon this thread. Wonderful idea, Bev - thanks for starting it.

General disclaimer - I have not yet permanently settled in France but, despite the obstacles (I am still working towards it), so I can only speak in generalizations.

For me, deciding on France was 25% travel in a variety of countries (not all European), 25% taking a hard look at the nuts and bolts of immigrating to and living in those countries, 15% love of the language, and 35% love at first sight. 

I started with a reasonably open mind, at least I think I did, and narrowed down the candidate countries one by one. For example - Italy is beautiful, the people I encountered were warm and friendly, the food is fabulous, there is history everywhere you look, and Italian is a lovely and very flexible language. But the underlying chaos (or so it appears to me) of daily life would drive me crazy. So Italy is reserved for vacations so those things I like about it won’t be diminished.

I like the cultural and geographical diversity of France. It’s pretty easy to find a climate that suits me. In general, it’s easy to get around. I come out ahead financially. Most of all, when I am in France I feel the happiest and most relaxed compared to all the other places I’ve been. Hard to argue that one.

In addition, France seems to mesh well with my personality. Like Steve, I test out as an INTJ so I am perfectly comfortable being alone and don’t need tons of social stimulation to be happy. The fact that integration into a community comes slowly and making friends happens even more slowly is not an issue for me. The flip side is I am interested in a number of activities so finding groups with the same interests is not an issue either. My happy social balance point is somewhat flexible.

Having said that, I don’t think it’s possible to know what living in another country/culture is really like until you do it. There are just so many aspects of day-to-day life that differ in ways you never thought could be any different from what you know and do. If you absolutely abhor change, are inflexible, need to feel in control of things, and think “different” equates to “bad” and/or “inferior” then changing countries is bound to end badly. (My sister + France = her daily bouts of anger, public temper tantrums, constant whining about the differences, and no small amount of pouting. Utter and complete misery.)

I think the generally important guidelines are: Hold on to your sense of humor, accept change, learn the language, be willing to make mistakes and be the fool now and then. Understand that nothing - nothing! - will look or feel familiar and you’ll probably be shocked at how much you take for granted. Know that things will go haywire and you’ll want to scream until you’re hoarse, but they (mostly) won’t be haywire forever. Ask for help and show appreciation when you receive it. And assume nothing, which is probably the hardest thing of all because it’s just about impossible to be aware of how many assumptions we all make on a daily basis.

As for specifically “why France and not...” in the end I believe it boils down to doing your homework about both the country and the culture, visit as often as you can to get a basic feel for it, start language lessons and see if it is a good fit for you, be able to apply logic and reason to your decision but, at the same time, don’t ignore your heart and your gut.


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## Matt Le

Thread back on track

I was thinking about Italy, now currently officially in a recession and the house market has officially collapsed, at least in some areas (second homes and investment homes especially).

Thanks for the heads up about Italian chaos, being a Brit these things really get to you.

Notably my help to anyone reading this thread... bout 13 years ago i visited Bulgaria, some of the mountain ranges are prettier (by far) than our lake district, but not spoilt by tourism, traffic jams and development. Even guaranteed hot long summers. The culture was so down to earth, truly distressed me and made me humble.

After 22 visits i decided to move there, then i realised, holidaying in a country, and living in a country a two VERY different things. The culture transpired to be very vulgar, harsh and dam right ruthless. I.E. no rules obeyed, no morals, no respect, no correctness etc etc.

I realised why back in the day the Brits called the Bulgarians 'Vulgar Bulgars'!

I made a retreat and lost a lot of money, but did keep my physical and mental health which some people don't if you get stuck in a country you don't fit in with, so beware.

Note, regarding your comment about visit a country and digest, yes do that, but crikey it is NOTHING like living there. So my advise would be, especially to Brits who have correctness and law abiding built into their DNA. DON'T decide to live in a country which is notorious for corruption, crime, unfairness, violence, gangs, gypsies etc etc.

Buying a bigger house and more land may be appealing in these countries, but think about your mind, your mental state if things get nasty, and in these countries, it is just a matter of time before things do go nasty for Foreigners.

Remember, Brits respect all nationalities and cultures, and kinda expect the same from others, but that's not how it is. KNOW IT


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## LipstickAndBaguettes

For quite a while I seriously considered moving to Croatia. I learned a bit of Croatian and took a long vacation to Croatia and Slovenia. (Slovenia is possibly the most beautiful country I’ve ever visited.) 

Even with a visit of a few weeks it became clear that Croatia isn’t for me. The Slavic language was one big hurdle, the culture (social norms, robust swearing, some pretty harsh views in general) was another. 

So sometimes a visit can tell you what you need to know for the “Ruled Out” column. But you are right - only living somewhere will give you the full picture.

As for my comment on Italy, what I consider to be chaos is what others call a vibrant social style of living. I don’t like noisy, buzzy environments. I don’t like people just popping over unexpectedly unless it’s an emergency. I don’t want to hear people who live across the street engaged in heated exchanges of opinion (i.e., shouting at full volume). I am uncomfortable with overt displays of emotions triggered by who knows what. I found what felt to me like a level of passion, emotional expression, level of energy, general disarray (for lack of a better word), and amount/level of social interaction to be too much for me personally. However, most of the other people I was traveling with adored it all and felt perfectly at home. I was the odd duck out.

So please don’t assume it’s not a place for you based on my impressions and interpretations. I have my quirks and preferences, like everyone else. &#55357;&#56841;


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## Bevdeforges

Actually, to address the "why not" part of the topic, there are those who find the French (dis)regard of the rule of law very off-putting, in exactly the same way that others here have described other "wilder and woolier" countries and their attitudes toward their own legal system.

In large part, it can be a matter of adjusting to the local habits and customs. But unless you have a reason for living in France, there's no particular motivation to adapt and tolerate the bits you don't care for.

The constant strikes and "manifs" used to drive me crazy. How dare people disrupt the lives of everyone around them just because they have a gripe with their employers?! (It's not nearly as bad now as it used to be - but some of the Gilets Jaunes are reminiscent of the "Bad Old Days.") However, over time, you see how people here deal with it - and how they get around things, or decide to join in. (Maybe not so much if you or someone in your family has to close up shop on Saturdays to avoid damage to person and property.)

I don't want to open up a discussion about the Gilets Jaunes here - there are other threads in the forum for that. But just to make the point that these sorts of actions are part and parcel of the "culture" here and if they bother you, you need to develop a strategy for dealing with them that allows you to remain and to continue to act within you own "comfort zone."


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## 95995

Paperwork is very important in France, and even more so for those renewing cartes de séjour or thinking of applying for naturalisation. There is a guide to minimum retention times here, but those who think they might want to apply for citizenship at a later date should perhaps consider retaining evidence that they have been resident in France for at least 5 years https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19134. Some expats might find this OTT, but forewarned is forearmed.


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## baldilocks

Many long-term members will know that France was one of the countries on our list of places to retire to. It fell off the list when we looked at the level of taxation especially when buying property. If it hadn't been excluded, we may well have been living in the mountains of the Auvergne now, instead of in the mountains of the Sierra Sur de Jaén in Spain.


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## baldilocks

VERITE said:


> Socially, the French mix much more with their families than with neighbours. Popping round to a neighbour's for coffee is (almost) unheard of.
> 
> And if you call round with some cupakes you have baked their embarrassment may be seen as rudeness which is rarely the case.


Funnily enough, there is a small group of people here in the village who will meet up on occasional Saturday afternoons for coffee and cakes or pastries or even Tarte Tatin. It was started by a French couple! The group includes four French, a couple of Brits, a few Spanish, a Cuban, a Colombian and an American. We are hosts this coming Saturday!


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## 95995

baldilocks said:


> Funnily enough, there is a small group of people here in the village who will meet up on occasional Saturday afternoons for coffee and cakes or pastries or even Tarte Tatin. It was started by a French couple! The group includes four French, a couple of Brits, a few Spanish, a Cuban, a Colombian and an American. We are hosts this coming Saturday!


That would fit in France because it is pre-arranged.


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## LipstickAndBaguettes

EverHopeful said:


> Paperwork is very important in France, and even more so for those renewing cartes de séjour or thinking of applying for naturalisation. There is a guide to minimum retention times here, but those who think they might want to apply for citizenship at a later date should perhaps consider retaining evidence that they have been resident in France for at least 5 years https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F19134. Some expats might find this OTT, but forewarned is forearmed.


Thank you for sharing this link! I had wondered whether these documents had to be retained in their original form (paper) or if they could be scanned and kept electronically. Knowing what I do, my bet was paper carried more clout. Good to have that confirmed.

As far as being OTT, it’s paperwork and it’s France - probably impossible to be OTT with that combination.


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## captainendeavour

Rion said:


> et ils ont beaucoup de sens de l'humour


The films of Jacques Tati are a perfect exemplar of that.


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## captainendeavour

"It can seem that way at first. However the French notion of government is that the government's first obligation is to "protect" its people. And it does that through regulation."

It is true that the French see the government in Paris as obliged to 'sort stuff out' in a way that is not the case in UK, for example. 

I arrived in Montpelier some years ago to find that my friend had been very nervous about driving to the airport because there had been a rash of car-burning for some days and was continuing.

This was protests by farmers whom Paris had talked into [bribed? fat subsidies, in any event] planting grape vines which resulted in a wine lake of dreadful plonk that nobody would buy. They expected Paris to come up with a remedy. I believe that in countries such as UK the answer would be, as Mrs T once so memorably quipped, "You cannot buck the market".

Much the same occurred many years before that with lamb imports from UK. In this case it was burning trucks, some with live animal inside and - astonishingly - the kidnapping and incarceration for a week of the Minister for Agriculture, who had gone to the port towns to try to mediate. I seem to remember that locking the minister up in a Norman cottage did not result in any action taken against anyone. 

I regard that as one of the ways the French have of resolving their problems. The 'gilets jaunes' are the most recent example.


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## captainendeavour

"To the French, everything in their country is normal."

Quite so. Here in Spain my amazement at some of the way things go is met by a smile, a shrug and "Es normal"


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## captainendeavour

Try Spain. A pal who helps incomers with the exigencies of incoming told me that the most common result of offering up what was hoped to be the required pile of paperwork is the dreaded phrase "falta un papel" - there`s a form missing.

To get the flavour of how the Spanish themselves regard their bureaurocracy I recommend the hilarious but scary 3 minute video "Autonomo - The Movie" about registering as self-employed.

I hope France isn't so bad.


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## Sixtiescycles

Good stuff, all of it. I really enjoy reading the comments of others who’ve “made the leap” as we have, and I hope this thread will continue, especially as things have changed quite a bit starting with the coronavirus pandemic. Also, for Amercian expats, I think the political situation in the US has progressed quite a bit in the past few years since this thread started, and some of those changes might influence your thinking. Politics in the US has degraded, and in spite of President-elect Joe Biden, it’s still a tenuous situation. Leave it at that.

We moved to France for several reasons; take them at face value. We’re active cyclists, so high on our list (understanding that most won’t necessarily commence) was an area with great cycling, reasonable real estate prices, good food, and a laid-back lifestyle. We feel like we have all of that, and more, in the Languedoc (Occitane) region. Next, the food is simply fabulous; all fresh and local. That’s important to us.

Few locals speak English, so yes, it’s useful to have at least a passing French language capability. We’re quite happy in our small, ancient town—two millenia of occupation, and our house is about 800 years old. We love living in a museum.

While there are many English speakers here—and that makes adapting a lot easier—we do intend to integrate with the local community, to the extent possible. We have may friends both Anglophile and native French. My hunch is that will always be the case, but we do hope to garner more native French friends as we spend more time here.


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## boilerman

Because we've always loved the French, and for a vegetarian thats hard


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## M4rk

Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev





Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Bev, I think I came across this forum when I was moving to France 2 years ago and found the response from people, and as you say pouncing on, the most negative thing. To the point I decided that the web and all the toxic responses I got was very strange and best ignored and I think that was the right decision a lot of people were very aggressive. Someone even commented after I stopped responding that if I couldn't even handle this how was I going to cope with a move to France. My opinion of these sites after that initial look before coming here would to be avoid like the plague. It would seem more like people who have huge regrets about thir move rather than a support community. After 2 years here I have no regrets. My leaning of the French language has been far more difficult than I expected but the French have not made me feel unwelcome at all.


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## captainendeavour

*France 4 - 0 Spain*.

I was surprised to find I contributed 4 posts to this thread in August 2019. By the end of that September the relentless heat of Spanish summer had cooled down enough to have done with what I came to call '_lockdown by climate_'. Time to think about a move, while the FoM rules still applied.

I decided I was not prepared to lose those 3 months and the issue became one of the four winners you see on the scoreline up top. France offers a variety of climates. I decided that I would find one tolerable all year round.* Fr 1 - 0 Es*

I realised that, at age 70, I was never going to become conversational in Spanish. After 15 years of visiting the city of Valencia and living there full time for 5, including project-managing the total refurb of my flat, I was able to get around, day to day, with the occcasional complete and humiliating failure in comprehension - checkout at Leroy Merlin and slightly unusual twist to the usually straightforward visit to the farmacia come to mind.

My French is in a different league to my Spanish. It needs work but the sort of problems I had had in Spain would not occur. I recently had 1 1/2 hrs at the bank, setting up my French a/c, with a woman who spoke no English at all. *Fr 2 - 0 Es*

I bought my flat in the old part of the centre of Valencia city, in an astonishingly quiet barrio, surrounded by all the best that the wonderful city of Valencia can provide. I bought at the very bottom of the market. I had an excellent refurb done, to my spec and on time and in budget, by a great team. Being over 65 I will pay no Capital Gains Tax. And, if it wasn't for the very difficult/impossible conditions of the property market during this pandemic, am set to sell for what will buy me a home in France, with some change to add to the embarrasment that is my UK pension. * Fr 3 - 0 Es*

Although I love my flat, I've done with city life. I find I don't do that bars/cafes/galleries/concerts thing any more. I now want peace and quiet and some outside space where I can wander out, sit with coffee, a beer or wine and watch the clouds go past. Daily emails from property sites confim that this is within my means in France, over a very wide range of the country. 

I'm sitting out the pox in rural Normandy. The wind is making '_Scott of The Antarctic'_ noises, the clouds are racing by - and that is very much OK by me. As for clouds, you don't get this sort of thing in Valencia city centre.

Christmas evening 2020. Placy-Montaigu. Normandy.









And that, Mesdames, Messieurs, is why the final score is* France 4 - 0 Spain*.


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## lmoore954

For me, "why France" centred a lot around entrapment falling in love with a French person, and that _mariage pour tous_ didn't yet exist in the US. 5 years on, I'm now in the process of applying for citizenship. There are a number of beautiful things here, and certainly challenges that make one want to scream 'Life is too short'. But I mostly like the linguistic challenge of living and working in another language, and every day I get to leave my flat and explore a foreign land...

As for 'why not', paperwork to be sure. The legalese seems more daunting in French, and I wonder sometimes if it's for psychological effect.

I can understand why some people might have a sceptical tone when they read posts from users that they're embarking on an _Eat, Pray, Love_ mission in France; perhaps they just want you to be spared from developing Paris syndrome.  But it's good to have a reminder that we should be kind to each other.


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## Shrapnel steve

Hey not posted on this site before, but I’ve spent quite a while over the past 12 months or so reading the various comments re the difficulties of living in France, la Belle France, and I’m still not put off !
I have been living in Cyprus for 6 years, together with my uk born Cypriot wife, prior to that we were in Spain, and we’ve decided it’s time for a change. 
I like France, I like french people, I like their way of doing things and except for North of the Loire valley I like the weather. I only speak schoolboy French, but I’m not fazed by those who constantly bang on about being proficient in the language otherwise it’s all doom and gloom.
I’m sure living in France and speaking french is a better experience than not bothering to learn any of the language, as is trying to integrate with ones new countrymen, but slowly slowly. Here in Cyprus I can tell you no expats can or ever will master the Greek language fluently, and I’ve had 40 years at it. I can get the thread if I listen to the news on TV or the radio, that’s about it. 
Hand on heart most expats can’t speak or read more than half a dozen words. seriously. 
Not a problem. Sure some of the Greeks are difficult, but a smile, a request for help and usually people will step up to the plate as it were. I agree that if you intend to work in a Country knowledge of the language is a huge help, but if fluency is required you wouldn’t get a job anyway. if you intend to work on a self employed basis then the locals would be hesitant to employ you until you have been accepted into the community, by which time you would have picked up some of the lingo !
If you have to deal with officialdom then there’s usually someone who can steer you along. 
A major hurdle I’ve found when speaking to others is they fail to familiarise themselves with using euros as daily currency. They get flustered and confused, and settle a €3.46 bill with a €50 note. Don’t do it !
Thats my tip for the day. 
So. best foot forward, give it a go. Don’t be put off plenty of people make a success of living in another country, and if that’s your dream go for it.


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## VERITE1

Shrapnel steve said:


> Hey not posted on this site before, but I’ve spent quite a while over the past 12 months or so reading the various comments re the difficulties of living in France, la Belle France, and I’m still not put off !
> I have been living in Cyprus for 6 years, together with my uk born Cypriot wife, prior to that we were in Spain, and we’ve decided it’s time for a change.
> I like France, I like french people, I like their way of doing things and except for North of the Loire valley I like the weather. I only speak schoolboy French, but I’m not fazed by those who constantly bang on about being proficient in the language otherwise it’s all doom and gloom.
> I’m sure living in France and speaking french is a better experience than not bothering to learn any of the language, as is trying to integrate with ones new countrymen, but slowly slowly. Here in Cyprus I can tell you no expats can or ever will master the Greek language fluently, and I’ve had 40 years at it. I can get the thread if I listen to the news on TV or the radio, that’s about it.
> Hand on heart most expats can’t speak or read more than half a dozen words. seriously.
> Not a problem. Sure some of the Greeks are difficult, but a smile, a request for help and usually people will step up to the plate as it were. I agree that if you intend to work in a Country knowledge of the language is a huge help, but if fluency is required you wouldn’t get a job anyway. if you intend to work on a self employed basis then the locals would be hesitant to employ you until you have been accepted into the community, by which time you would have picked up some of the lingo !
> If you have to deal with officialdom then there’s usually someone who can steer you along.
> A major hurdle I’ve found when speaking to others is they fail to familiarise themselves with using euros as daily currency. They get flustered and confused, and settle a €3.46 bill with a €50 note. Don’t do it !
> Thats my tip for the day.
> So. best foot forward, give it a go. Don’t be put off plenty of people make a success of living in another country, and if that’s your dream go for it.


I agree that you don’t have to be fluent to get by. It depends on your expectations and the environment you are living in. However the better you speak and understand the language, the better you will be able to grasp what is happening around you and the better you will be able to communicate when you need to. The more effort you put into acquiring at least the basics, the more you will get out of living in a foreign country. Speaking the language gives you independence and the freedom to make choices. However if you are happy with little then indeed why bother. It’s up to each person to define their needs.


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## Powered_By_Pies

VERITE1 said:


> I agree that you don’t have to be fluent to get by. It depends on your expectations and the environment you are living in. However the better you speak and understand the language, the better you will be able to grasp what is happening around you and the better you will be able to communicate when you need to. The more effort you put into acquiring at least the basics, the more you will get out of living in a foreign country. Speaking the language gives you independence and the freedom to make choices. However if you are happy with little then indeed why bother. It’s up to each person to define their needs.


I've always been of the opinion that it's at least the respectable thing to do. I'm at the stage where I'm trying to learn the finer intricacies of French Grammar and vocabulary - trying to look for a job in France is not going to be easy even if I'm fluent because of the preference to hire local, so I know I'm already at a disadvantage - and the likes of DuoLingo and the various vocab books I have are leaving me in cold sweats after testing myself and realising I need to know a hell of a lot more than 'oh la la, il y a une vache dans le salon'.

One thing I've always noticed when being in France with my partner is whenever we're out in bars, French people are much more sociable than Brits. The next point is both endearing and a little annoying - I find that once French people find out I'm English (I seem to have a talent for having a good French accent when I speak but I give it away quickly with my limited vocab), they want to speak English with me, like a fascination. That's great and all, but I'm in your country, I want to end up living here, I need speak your lingo guys, I don't want to be one of 'those Brits' you always see in the summer on the Cote d'Azure, waddling into a patisserie in swimming shorts and sunglasses, pointing at the baguettes in the display counter, shouting "TWO!!" and slapping down a €50,00 note.. 

I'd at least like to show my respect towards European values and French customs and traditions - even if it gives me near-constant migraines trying to learn it all!


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## boilerman

Powered_By_Pies said:


> I've always been of the opinion that it's at least the respectable thing to do. I'm at the stage where I'm trying to learn the finer intricacies of French Grammar and vocabulary - trying to look for a job in France is not going to be easy even if I'm fluent because of the preference to hire local, so I know I'm already at a disadvantage - and the likes of DuoLingo and the various vocab books I have are leaving me in cold sweats after testing myself and realising I need to know a hell of a lot more than 'oh la la, il y a une vache dans le salon'.
> 
> One thing I've always noticed when being in France with my partner is whenever we're out in bars,* French people are much more sociable than Brits.* The next point is both endearing and a little annoying - I find that once French people find out I'm English (I seem to have a talent for having a good French accent when I speak but I give it away quickly with my limited vocab), they want to speak English with me, like a fascination. That's great and all, but I'm in your country, I want to end up living here, I need speak your lingo guys, I don't want to be one of 'those Brits' you always see in the summer on the Cote d'Azure, waddling into a patisserie in swimming shorts and sunglasses, pointing at the baguettes in the display counter, shouting "TWO!!" and slapping down a €50,00 note..
> 
> *I'd at least like to show my respect towards European values and French customs and traditions* - even if it gives me near-constant migraines trying to learn it all!


I've been coming to France for 30yrs or more, with my wife ,who handles all the French speaking stuff, because shes good at that, and I'm not. However, I have a basic handle on the small stuff. You're right French people are much more open to conversation than the Brits, also much more polite. I go and buy bread and cakes and deal with the vet(for the dogs) and lots of things and never have any trouble getting understood. Mainly because I'm a "stranger in a strange land" and give respect.
I don't shout, I don't wear football tops and I have a go at the language. Its funny, I can see the ladies face when I buy cakes etc and get the name wrong, I cant see the value of the coins properly, so she helps herself Its entertaining for them. I want France to stay the way it is, so I wont try and change it to suit me.


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## Bevdeforges

The trick with those who want to "practice their English" is to try to get them to agree to a "language exchange." You'll speak English with them for half an hour or 45 minutes, and then the next 30 or 45 minutes they speak French with you to help you "practice your French."


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## Powered_By_Pies

boilerman said:


> I've been coming to France for 30yrs or more, with my wife ,who handles all the French speaking stuff, because shes good at that, and I'm not. However, I have a basic handle on the small stuff. You're right French people are much more open to conversation than the Brits, also much more polite. I go and buy bread and cakes and deal with the vet(for the dogs) and lots of things and never have any trouble getting understood. Mainly because I'm a "stranger in a strange land" and give respect.
> I don't shout, *I don't wear football tops* and I have a go at the language. Its funny, I can see the ladies face when I buy cakes etc and get the name wrong, I cant see the value of the coins properly, so she helps herself Its entertaining for them. I want France to stay the way it is, so I wont try and change it to suit me.


Only ever did that once in Nice when my partner's brother took us to see OGC Nice v Marseille. I felt the need to 'represent' wearing my home club shirt (Portsmouth, for all my sins..), and it's probably a good thing I'd taken two shirts with me - one a Grey away shirt, and the other a Blue home shirt. Her brother winced a bit at the blue home shirt I'd put on and said 'maybe not that one, it's a bit close to Marseille's away shirt colour...' - swiftly swapped for the grey one. A 'welcome' from the Nice ultra's wasn't something I wanted to experience..

I'll be honest and admit I felt a bit of a twit at first when I got to the Allianz Riviera looking like a typical Rosbif, until I saw people milling about in Barcelona and Athletico Madrid shirts - and even spotted a Chelsea shirt.. Only time I'd ever do it though, I wouldn't be caught dead out in public in France wearing a UK team's football shirt if I wasn't going to a match!



Bevdeforges said:


> The trick with those who want to "practice their English" is to try to get them to agree to a "language exchange." You'll speak English with them for half an hour or 45 minutes, and then the next 30 or 45 minutes they speak French with you to help you "practice your French."


I've come to an agreement with my partner's mum, who's taken it upon herself to learn more English, that when we have conversations she speaks in English to me, and I speak in French to her. Works quite well most of the time, I mean the conversations are very basic (haven't yet told her there's a cow in the living room but waiting for the right opportunity..), but I think for me, I learn best with immersion - sink or swim style.


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## boilerman

Powered_By_Pies said:


> *Only ever did that once in Nice* when my partner's brother took us to see OGC Nice v Marseille. I felt the need to 'represent' wearing my home club shirt (Portsmouth, for all my sins..), and it's probably a good thing I'd taken two shirts with me - one a Grey away shirt, and the other a Blue home shirt. Her brother winced a bit at the blue home shirt I'd put on and said 'maybe not that one, it's a bit close to Marseille's away shirt colour...' - swiftly swapped for the grey one. A 'welcome' from the Nice ultra's wasn't something I wanted to experience..
> 
> I'll be honest and admit I felt a bit of a twit at first when I got to the Allianz Riviera looking like a typical Rosbif, until I saw people milling about in Barcelona and Athletico Madrid shirts - and even spotted a Chelsea shirt.. Only time I'd ever do it though, I wouldn't be caught dead out in public in France wearing a UK team's football shirt if I wasn't going to a match!
> 
> 
> 
> I've come to an agreement with my partner's mum, who's taken it upon herself to learn more English, that when we have conversations she speaks in English to me, and I speak in French to her. Works quite well most of the time, I mean the conversations are very basic (haven't yet told her there's a cow in the living room but waiting for the right opportunity..), but I think for me, I learn best with immersion - sink or swim style.


Its ok I know what you meanIts never the shirt, but the person in it


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## Eliora

The bells, the bells. Best in the world.


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## Rob Watt

Why France? It is an interesting question. My wife are doing long-term planning on where we want to retire (about 4 years out), and have largely settled on France. We certainly considered some other areas, such as Vietnam (and even Cambodia), which we have spent considerable time in (and which are considerably cheaper than Europe), as well as Italy. So why France? In our case, it makes sense for a few reasons:
1. We already speak functional, if not fluent, French. We are Canadian, and as a senior military officer I had to learn both official languages. My wife works at a bilingual university, and also has to be functional in both official languages. So France becomes an obvious choice versus somewhere like Spain or Italy, since we wouldn’t have to learn another language (which does NOT get easier as you get older!)
2. Familiarity. We lived in the south of England (Hampshire) for 4 years, and during that time took numerous trips to France with our car. Having travelled and experienced a number of different areas, we have a bit of an idea of the lifestyle, climate, and other aspects. So we aren’t necessarily having to base our decision on the opinion of others (or unrealistic expectations from books and movies). We have also lived in several foreign countries already (through military & diplomatic postings), so the idea of moving abroad is perhaps less daunting for us. 
3. Quality of life. We love French food, wine, the enjoyment of slow meals, and the “work to live” (vs “live to work“ found in most English-speaking countries). 
4. The ability to buy an affordable historic home. There are lots of renovated and modernized beautiful stone character farmhouses available in France (usually with outbuildings, property, and often a pool), for less than half of the cost of an average dreary cookie-cutter suburban home here in Ottawa.
5. Stable government. France is a Western democracy with a well established (some would say over-developed!) bureaucracy that functions. As much as Ann and I love Vietnam, it is a Socialist country where the government could (for instance) arbitrarily change the rules on foreign ownership of property. I’m not sure we would be willing to risk that at this stage in our lives. 
6. Reliable health care, and safety. Health care is affordable and accessible, even for expats. And most areas of France are quite safe. 
7. Mild climate. Coming from Canada, even the “harsh” winters of Normandy and Bretagne would be quite tolerable. We are more likely looking at areas like the Dordogne, which have very mild winters, and summers that are also pleasant (I’m not sure I need the heat of Provence or the Cote-d’Azur!)
There are certainly some downsides to living in France. The cost of living is certainly higher than, say, Mexico or Vietnam. The bureaucracy can be frustrating. The exodus from rural communities can mean services can be a challenge if you choose to live outside a major town. If you don’t speak the language, that would obviously be an additional challenge.


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## ExpatWannaBe55

Rob Watt said:


> As much as Ann and I love Vietnam, it is a Socialist country where the government could (for instance) arbitrarily change the rules on foreign ownership of property. I’m not sure we would be willing to risk that at this stage in our lives.


Well that risk applies to any country in SE Asia, not just the socialist ones. Try buying a house in Thailand...


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## amlachance

This is very interesting to read!
My husband is French (moved to the US when he was 29) and I have lived there briefly and visited many times for many weeks at a time, but now we are thinking to relocate there (in the S of France) for a year or more so he can spend time with his family after 30 years in the US. We both have French citizenship, so some things won't be an issue but we do fear the bureaucracy that awaits us! 
I'm bilingual but rusty w my French, and familiar with many French idiosyncrasies but not sure I'm entirely prepared to live there, and very unfamiliar with the digital/tech age in France.
It is interesting to read people's advice and experiences. 
Many of my concerns are more practical such as life there as a non meat eater, someone who is quite sensitive to cigarette smoke, and just the change of habits in general. I LOVE my Trader Joe's, my clean public restrooms, and the general friendliness and hospitality of Americans (shallow or not)! lol. 
I am very American in my demeanor with social situations and while I am familiar with French culture, I am wondering how I'll adapt. Trying to think through all the bumps in the road so I can be better prepared. 
I'll say this though, it is a truly beautiful country!


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## Bevdeforges

Well, the good news and the bad news is that France has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years (about the length of time I have lived here). There is quite a bit less smoking - at least out in public and in many indoor locations - though vegetarians may still find a somewhat limited offering (at least of prepared foods). 

And actually, as French citizens, the bureaucracy is a fraction of what it is for the "furriners." (First thing I noticed once I got my French nationality!) Past that, the main requirement is a sense of humor and the willingness to adapt to the situations you find. "Toto, we aren't in Kansas any more." But as long as you're not looking for things to be "the same" as in the States, you may find plenty of stuff you really can enjoy.


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## ToulouseRob

Bevdeforges said:


> ..There is quite a bit less smoking - at least out in public and in many indoor locations -


I'd just add, though, that the ban on smoking indoors - which in general I'm pleased about - means that pretty much everyone who eats/drinks on the terrace outside a cafe/bar/resto is a smoker. To the point where, despite the pleasures of pavement culture, we usually choose to be inside now. When they're open, of course. Which is a shame: I used to enjoy a cold beer on the pavement, watching the world go by.


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## amlachance

Yes, being a vegetarian in France has been challenging for as long as I've traveled there. I know in bigger cities it's easier to find options for dining out and we usually wind up at a creperie or pizzeria (I have to say the best pizza I've ever had is in France, and that includes Italy). I do still eat fish once a week or so but not every day as my in laws seem to think! (they don't know what else to make)
I'll have to make a list of things to bring over that are hard to find but some items I know I'll be out of luck. If any one out there wants to suggest some things to add to my list, feel free (I used to bring baking powder to make pancakes and waffles). I've no idea if I'll find tofu regularly, or anything to make tofu/fish tacos with. 
So smoking on terraces hasn't changed in the last 5 years? That stinks. Literally and figuratively. You'd think w the fear of covid there'd be lots of pressure to get people to quit perhaps by limiting it in public everywhere. 
Yes, a sense of humor, for sure! I do love many things about France and French culture, but I know there are things I won't realize are a challenge until I'm living in it. I'm really not ready to dry my clothes on a line! ha. 
Being American, learning the metric system for cooking/baking will take a bit, too. If only the US had switched when Canada did! :/ lame. 
At some point we are thinking going to Spain for 6 months to a year and then possibly Italy or Greece. Then I'll be hitting the harder challenges of language and unfamiliarity. 
Reading one of the posts here, I wonder if the chaos and "shouting" neighbors in Italy would be a major deterrent...lots to consider.


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## boilerman

amlachance said:


> Yes, being a vegetarian in France has been challenging for as long as I've traveled there. I know in bigger cities it's easier to find options for dining out and we usually wind up at a creperie or pizzeria (I have to say the best pizza I've ever had is in France, and that includes Italy). I do still eat fish once a week or so but not every day as my in laws seem to think! (they don't know what else to make)
> I'll have to make a list of things to bring over that are hard to find but some items I know I'll be out of luck. If any one out there wants to suggest some things to add to my list, feel free (I used to bring baking powder to make pancakes and waffles). I've no idea if I'll find tofu regularly, or anything to make tofu/fish tacos with.
> So smoking on terraces hasn't changed in the last 5 years? That stinks. Literally and figuratively. You'd think w the fear of covid there'd be lots of pressure to get people to quit perhaps by limiting it in public everywhere.
> Yes, a sense of humor, for sure! I do love many things about France and French culture, but I know there are things I won't realize are a challenge until I'm living in it. I'm really not ready to dry my clothes on a line! ha.
> Being American, learning the metric system for cooking/baking will take a bit, too. If only the US had switched when Canada did! :/ lame.
> At some point we are thinking going to Spain for 6 months to a year and then possibly Italy or Greece. Then I'll be hitting the harder challenges of language and unfamiliarity.
> Reading one of the posts here, I wonder if the chaos and "shouting" neighbors in Italy would be a major deterrent...lots to consider.


ATM I dont live in France, but we've had a house there for 20yrs and had all our hoildays there. Its seaside area with some classy resturants etc, but dont ever think that being a veggie(like me)is going to be easy to eat out. We pick and choose the menu thats a close to something different for us as possible. Pasta resturants, Pizza places, cafes that do really nice Omlettes, or stay at home. The French for me will anything with a pulse and good luck to themIts their country.
Just an example of where we live. We went out one night for pizza, I ordered a Margarita, it came with peparami on it, I said I hadnt ordered that, please change it. When it came back it was the same pizza with the peperami taken off. Now that might just be that that resturant was not the best, but for me, I thought that was the way they viewed the non eating of meat.
I havent smoked for 35yrs, but I'll happily sit outside with a drink, with the smokers. Thats France to me, and I wouldnt change a thing. Good luck.


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## amlachance

boilerman said:


> ATM I dont live in France, but we've had a house there for 20yrs and had all our hoildays there. Its seaside area with some classy resturants etc, but dont ever think that being a veggie(like me)is going to be easy to eat out. We pick and choose the menu thats a close to something different for us as possible. Pasta resturants, Pizza places, cafes that do really nice Omlettes, or stay at home. The French for me will anything with a pulse and good luck to themIts their country.
> Just an example of where we live. We went out one night for pizza, I ordered a Margarita, it came with peparami on it, I said I hadnt ordered that, please change it. When it came back it was the same pizza with the peperami taken off. Now that might just be that that resturant was not the best, but for me, I thought that was the way they viewed the non eating of meat.
> I havent smoked for 35yrs, but I'll happily sit outside with a drink, with the smokers. Thats France to me, and I wouldnt change a thing. Good luck.


Ha, yes, I do know about the challenges of being a non meat eater in France. My father-in-law offered me charcuterie each and every visit to France for well over 20 years...you'd think it would sink in at some point! Our fall-back was always creperies (ratatouille being my fav) and pâtes au roquefort. TBH, being a vegetarian in S Korea was way harder than it is in France (and that was just a 10 day trip - never again). I do manage usually to find vegetarian couscous in France, which I love.


----------



## BackinFrance

There are plenty of options available in France for vegetarians and they are increasing all the time. BUT, judging by various threads on this forum, they are clearly not the same vegetarian foods you would eat in the US, not that the options are totally French. If you want Tofu, just Google où acheter tofu and the name of the closest town.

I would say, though, that you need to be adaptable when moving to France and prepared to change your lifestyle (in this case recipes). Of course, those who really want to move to France would (I think) be prepared to do so and would treat it as something of an adventure. You will find plenty of French vegetarian recipes online.


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## Bevdeforges

In several countries in Europe, some forms of meat are considered to be a form of "seasoning" and often not considered anything that should disturb a vegetarian. In Germany, it's "Speck" (basically ham) while here in France you may find lardons (kind of like bacon - at least from the same part of the pig) in dishes you would have thought were vegetarian. 

As far as tofu is concerned, it's available often even in grocery stores - but only the firm variety, usually sold in those tetrapak cartons (so it doesn't need refrigeration). One of the big adjustments you wind up making is where you look for various products in the super markets - the French logic of where to put stuff is definitely different from how they do it in the US.


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> In several countries in Europe, some forms of meat are considered to be a form of "seasoning" and often not considered anything that should disturb a vegetarian. In Germany, it's "Speck" (basically ham) while here in France you may find lardons (kind of like bacon - at least from the same part of the pig) in dishes you would have thought were vegetarian.
> 
> As far as tofu is concerned, it's available often even in grocery stores - but only the firm variety, usually sold in those tetrapak cartons (so it doesn't need refrigeration). One of the big adjustments you wind up making is where you look for various products in the super markets - the French logic of where to put stuff is definitely different from how they do it in the US.


You can most certainly also buy soft tofu in France and not all tofu is sold in tetrapak cartons, plenty of it is sold fresh. It can be purchased in supermarkets (not all), Asian stores and organic stores.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> You can most certainly also buy soft tofu in France and not all tofu is sold in tetrapak cartons, plenty of it is sold fresh. It can be purchased in supermarkets (not all), Asian stores and organic stores.


Experience differs depending on where in France you're located.


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## ToulouseRob

"Bio" has become a hugely popular trend and there are far more shops that sell "Bio" products exclusively (the Biocoop chain being the most well known, at least around here, but by no means the only one). Of course "Bio" does not mean vegetarian, but the point is that these shops often sell a wider range of foods and foodstuffs than your everyday superettes and corner stores. (Maybe this is exagerated by being in a metropolis.) We're not veggies but have hugely cut back on our meat consumption. So finding a wider variety of pulses, nuts, cereals, seeds and pastes is a great help. Being able to buy them in larger quantities than snack packets is good too, although supermarkets are selling more and more foodstuffs from "fill your own" dispensers.


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Experience differs depending on where in France you're located.


Which is absolutely not the same as saying you can't get it. Of course you are much less likely to find it in the smaller supermarkets or in village shops.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Coming up to retirement and looking for pastures new
Since Brexit, returning to the UK is a big "no"
I am half French - my wife has a Belgian passport
We want to move somewhere where we know the language
Spain too hot and arid
Germany? Language skills not that great
Both of us have lived periods in France and used to own a holiday house in France
I like playing pétanque
My wife owns a beret
We love the markets and brocantes
We understand what an old farmer means when talking millions of francs
I love garlic
I can shrug my shoulders with the best of them
Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


----------



## boilerman

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Coming up to retirement and looking for pastures new
> Since Brexit, returning to the UK is a big "no"
> I am half French - my wife has a Belgian passport
> We want to move somewhere where we know the language
> Spain too hot and arid
> Germany? Language skills not that great
> Both of us have lived periods in France and used to own a holiday house in France
> I like playing pétanque
> My wife owns a beret
> We love the markets and brocantes
> We understand what an old farmer means when talking millions of francs
> I love garlic
> I can shrug my shoulders with the best of them
> Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


Sign them up quick


----------



## ExpatWannaBe55

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


Thanks, I needed that....!


----------



## Franco-Belgian Brit

ExpatWannaBe55 said:


> Thanks, I needed that....!


You're welcome


----------



## PinkUnicorn

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


Mais le singe a disparu... (E. Izzard).


----------



## Yours truly confused

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


I would say thanks for that too, as I have now learnt something this morning by looking it up on tinternet, except that, I mentioned it to OH and he has expanded on the theme which is making my brain hurt. Not allowed to tell him to shut up today, it’s his birthday. 
Happy St George’s day everyone, and have a glass for Shakespeares birthday and death day.


----------



## John T Savage

Wow, I probably thought I would never see infinite monkey theory reference here.


----------



## GGG1

Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thanks for this. I am one of those newbies! Can you explain of refer me to a source so I can be clear on how taxes, income (I have my own business) and all financial issues relating to moving to France from the USA work? Merci!


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## Bevdeforges

The impots.gouv.fr website (official website of the Fisc) has a fairly extensive section devoted to information in english. They even have an English language guide to taxation in France: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/files/media/1_metier/5_international/french_tax_system.pdf?l=en
The guide is dated 2016, so is a little bit dated, however the general principles of taxation work. 

As far as having your own business, you may find that you have to set up a French branch or office to continue operating the business from France. (Though that depends on the nature and the extent of the business.) The actual process of setting up a business entity in France is probably best handled through the departemental CCI (Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie) website, which has lots of information (in French) on the types of business entities, registration requirements, etc.

"All financial issues relating to moving to France from the USA" is a rather tall order. The tax stuff you'll see in the guide I directed you to. Other significant areas are banks, exchange and transfer services and, of course, the US tax side of things (something you never escape completely). For the US side of the tax issue, start with IRS Publication 54. And then, depending on the nature of your business, there may be further issues and research to be done regarding your US taxes.


----------



## GGG1

Bevdeforges said:


> The impots.gouv.fr website (official website of the Fisc) has a fairly extensive section devoted to information in english. They even have an English language guide to taxation in France: https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/files/media/1_metier/5_international/french_tax_system.pdf?l=en
> The guide is dated 2016, so is a little bit dated, however the general principles of taxation work.
> 
> As far as having your own business, you may find that you have to set up a French branch or office to continue operating the business from France. (Though that depends on the nature and the extent of the business.) The actual process of setting up a business entity in France is probably best handled through the departemental CCI (Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie) website, which has lots of information (in French) on the types of business entities, registration requirements, etc.
> 
> "All financial issues relating to moving to France from the USA" is a rather tall order. The tax stuff you'll see in the guide I directed you to. Other significant areas are banks, exchange and transfer services and, of course, the US tax side of things (something you never escape completely). For the US side of the tax issue, start with IRS Publication 54. And then, depending on the nature of your business, there may be further issues and research to be done regarding your US taxes.


Thank you so much!


----------



## Lalla

As a veggie who's holidayed mainly in Spain, I'm resigned to peeling the meat off of dishes and passing it to my fellow diners... 😄


----------



## amlachance

Lalla said:


> As a veggie who's holidayed mainly in Spain, I'm resigned to peeling the meat off of dishes and passing it to my fellow diners... 😄


Well, that's an unfortunate piece of info. I recently asked someone who lived in Spain many years if it was hard to live there as a vegetarian and he emphatically said no! I was surprised but hopeful....


----------



## Lalla

amlachance said:


> Well, that's an unfortunate piece of info. I recently asked someone who lived in Spain many years if it was hard to live there as a vegetarian and he emphatically said no! I was surprised but hopeful....


I speak purely as a visitor dining out. Yes, there were often a vegetarian option, but it was usually quiche. Now, I like quiche, but there's only so often in one week I want to eat it! .


----------



## Bevdeforges

What I sometimes wonder is how vegans fare in Europe. The "fallback" option here in France is often either cheese or egg based. And even then, meat is so often used as a "flavoring" in those options. 

Had a vegetarian boss when I worked in Germany. He loved cheese Spätzle, but nearly every time he ordered it, he found it was "flavored with" Speck (ham) and when he complained, he was usually told that, oh, that was just part of the flavoring. (OK vegetarians were considered pretty strange back 20 or 30 years ago.) But I'm told folks still encounter that to a certain extent here in France. "Lardons" are so often used in quiche or other cheese or egg dishes that the chef may not even consider that it may give vegetarians problems.

Of course for a while here, if you attended a dinner (like at a wedding or conference) and asked for the "vegetarian" option, you often were given what everyone else was having - with the meat part of the meal simply removed from the plate. Or a plate of steamed vegetables with no perceptible seasoning of any variety.


----------



## bhamham

I read about folks using 'Happy Cow' to find vegan/veggie restaurants.









Vegan Restaurants in France


Guide to vegan and vegetarian restaurants in France and a directory of natural health food stores.




www.happycow.net


----------



## Lalla

Good to know


----------



## BackinFrance

VegOresto

VegOresto.fr


----------



## Lalla

Luvverly 😘


----------



## BackinFrance

Lalla said:


> Luvverly 😘


It's not the only site, there are many and you can always Google. I think Bev may be seriously out of date because vegetarim and veganism have really taken off in France in recent years.


----------



## SPGW

Interesting read. For me “Why France” isn’t something you can define by analysis or calculation. You either have a feeling or you don’t, that France is a place you want to live in. I felt this from an exchange visit in Aix at 15, reinforced by working in the Pauillac vendanges at 20, after years of camping visits growing up and also watching French films of the 70/80s. There is culture, style and class. For me, moving here was to do with quality of life ( other options at the time, based on the chance of also working for extended periods in these countries, enough to ‘get by’ in the language were: Spain, Italy and Costa Rica). Finances, tax, bureaucracy, health systems, politics were/still are secondary - and are a necessary evil wherever you live - in fact I took a 30% pay reduction coming to Fr - but opportunities soon presented themselves to rectify that ( I read one thread here implying that hard work and study only gives opportunities in the US).
So anyone struggling to decide, after presumably knowing France enough for serious consideration, probably should follow their hunch that it is not for them.
Btw, I also lived in UK, US and Belgium long enough to know that it was “OK, but not for ever” (lacking that style, culture and quality of life).


----------



## tout va bien

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Coming up to retirement and looking for pastures new
> Since Brexit, returning to the UK is a big "no"
> I am half French - my wife has a Belgian passport
> We want to move somewhere where we know the language
> Spain too hot and arid
> Germany? Language skills not that great
> Both of us have lived periods in France and used to own a holiday house in France
> I like playing pétanque
> My wife owns a beret
> We love the markets and brocantes
> We understand what an old farmer means when talking millions of francs
> I love garlic
> I can shrug my shoulders with the best of them
> Il y a un singe dans l'arbre writing the complete works of Shakespeare with la plume de ma tante


love your attitude!


----------



## jeepster62

Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


hi there ou comment ca la ba..Lets cut rhe blabla ..With that bleeming brexit I just wanted to ask anyone how can i go about it by the way ive british and french passport but the thing is twas such a long time ago..je suis ne en france mais after so many years in the UK my english is as good as my french et vice versa..I was working for the home office but now UK is bad news too much sucking up to the evil empire aka US..Anyway if anyone want to converse basically ive had enough with that gang of misfits @n10


----------



## jeepster62

VERITE1 said:


> Not an expert but here's my contribution.
> 
> Don't underestimate the language difficulties. Most people have school/holiday phrasebook French but to live in France and be able to cope with day to day living you really need to prepare.
> 
> Obviously you can get by with little, but the frustrations will be endless and you may end up avoiding contact rather than seeking it out which is counterproductive.
> 
> So if possible learn as much as you can before you make the move.


French very easy even a 10 years old in france can speak it..a oui mon vieux...


----------



## Befuddled

After about 20 years here I'm still not fluent enough for a telephone conversation. I have been far too busy modernising a wreck of a house on little or no money that I couldn't afford to waste time and money learning a new language. I'm in deep rural countryside and apart from the postie I rarely see a living soul so it has never been a problem. Bureaucracy can be dealt with online with translation software. Shopping is a breeze, its only numbers anyway. 

Coming to France wasn't so much a question of choice, but a happy random result of wanting to get away from UK where I was judged by my job, qualifications, and how new my car was.


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## VERITE1

Befuddled said:


> After about 20 years here I'm still not fluent enough for a telephone conversation. I have been far too busy modernising a wreck of a house on little or no money that I couldn't afford to waste time and money learning a new language. I'm in deep rural countryside and apart from the postie I rarely see a living soul so it has never been a problem. Bureaucracy can be dealt with online with translation software. Shopping is a breeze, its only numbers anyway.
> 
> Coming to France wasn't so much a question of choice, but a happy random result of wanting to get away from UK where I was judged by my job, qualifications, and how new my car was.


Well that's fine if it's what you want. But learning French doesn't necessarily entail "wasting time and money": you just have to mix with French speakers and you will pick it up by repetition. But if you prefer to live like a hermit that's your choice, it just seems a bit sad to be living in France and missing out on so much that it has to offer. I am wondering if you aren't a bit scared of reaching out and meeting others? You got away from the uk but you are not really "living" in France, you have created a bubble in which you have chosen to stay, a nomansland where you feel safe. Perfectly fine if, as I said, it is what you really want.


----------



## NYCEnglish

Befuddled said:


> Bureaucracy can be dealt with online with translation software. Shopping is a breeze, its only numbers anyway.


Not a negative question but how do you deal with phone calls and in-person bureaucracy?


----------



## julialynn

Bevdeforges said:


> What I sometimes wonder is how vegans fare in Europe. The "fallback" option here in France is often either cheese or egg based. And even then, meat is so often used as a "flavoring" in those options.
> 
> Had a vegetarian boss when I worked in Germany. He loved cheese Spätzle, but nearly every time he ordered it, he found it was "flavored with" Speck (ham) and when he complained, he was usually told that, oh, that was just part of the flavoring. (OK vegetarians were considered pretty strange back 20 or 30 years ago.) But I'm told folks still encounter that to a certain extent here in France. "Lardons" are so often used in quiche or other cheese or egg dishes that the chef may not even consider that it may give vegetarians problems.
> 
> Of course for a while here, if you attended a dinner (like at a wedding or conference) and asked for the "vegetarian" option, you often were given what everyone else was having - with the meat part of the meal simply removed from the plate. Or a plate of steamed vegetables with no perceptible seasoning of any variety.


Vegan options have gotten a LOT better in France since I got here almost 10 years ago! I was vegan pre-moving to France, went back to being vegetarian when I moved to a small town in SW France, and then went back to being vegan once we moved to Bordeaux. These days, you can find coconut milk yogurt in almost any supermarket, and Casino is now selling violife and les nouveaux fermiers (vegan cheese maker and vegan meat alternatives, respectively). Bordeaux has lots of vegan-friendly restaurants. I think, like the US, it really depends _where_ you are in France/Europe. Berlin also for example, is vegan foodie heaven. Course, I was at a wedding this past weekend, and got food poisoning I think from the caterer telling the couple that things were vegan that I now suspect were not, but no matter where you are, things like that can happen...


----------



## Franco-Belgian Brit

julialynn said:


> *Vegan options have gotten a LOT better in France* since I got here almost 10 years ago! I was vegan pre-moving to France, went back to being vegetarian when I moved to a small town in SW France, and then went back to being vegan once we moved to Bordeaux. These days, you can find coconut milk yogurt in almost any supermarket, and* Casino is now selling violife and les nouveaux fermiers *(vegan cheese maker and vegan meat alternatives, respectively). Bordeaux has lots of vegan-friendly restaurants. I think, like the US, it really depends _where_ you are in France/Europe. Berlin also for example, is vegan foodie heaven. Course, I was at a wedding this past weekend, and got food poisoning I think from the caterer telling the couple that things were vegan that I now suspect were not, but no matter where you are, things like that can happen...


That's good to know.

I feel for you about the food poisoning. I'm vegan due to an inability to digest certain things (since gallbladder removal) rather than by choice. I had a similar experience at a restaurant some months back and had stomach cramps overnight.


----------



## julialynn

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> That's good to know.
> 
> I feel for you about the food poisoning. I'm vegan due to an inability to digest certain things (since gallbladder removal) rather than by choice. I had a similar experience at a restaurant some months back and had stomach cramps overnight.


I think the thing is in France, you need to seek out specifically veg/vegan-friendly restaurants. Most traditional French restaurants are simply uninterested, tbqh. HappyCow helps a lot. I used to live in Les Landes, and finding vegetarian food alone was rather a challenge (mostly could get take out pizza or Indian food, that was it), but that was also 5 years ago. Since then, things have gotten much better. You have bio chains like BioCoop, Le Marché de Léopold, Naturalia, etc etc. And asian markets are a great source for tofu, faux duck, etc. Oh and if you want fresh produce directly from farmers, there's a good network of AMAP (the French equivalent of CSA, community-supported agriculture).
For restaurants, here in Bordeaux, we have a number of vegan/vegan-friendly burger places, a French vegan bistro (just opened this past year and is great), a vegan fusion Asian place (mostly focused on indonesian food), a number of places that do brunch, and so forth, and that doesn't even count the few places we haven't had a chance to try out. And there's also a 100% vegan store in the Bordeaux city center that has artisanal vegan cheese, faux meats etc. I don't go there often as it's spendy, but it's a nice treat every so often. Certainly has made huge improvements since I first moved here and people used to ask my husband if he got sick of eating « carrotes râpées » every evening. 🤪


----------



## Franco-Belgian Brit

julialynn said:


> I think the thing is in France, you need to seek out specifically veg/vegan-friendly restaurants. Most traditional French restaurants are simply uninterested, tbqh. HappyCow helps a lot. I used to live in Les Landes, and finding vegetarian food alone was rather a challenge (mostly could get take out pizza or Indian food, that was it), but that was also 5 years ago. Since then, things have gotten much better. You have bio chains like BioCoop, Le Marché de Léopold, Naturalia, etc etc. And asian markets are a great source for tofu, faux duck, etc. Oh and if you want fresh produce directly from farmers, there's a good network of AMAP (the French equivalent of CSA, community-supported agriculture).
> For restaurants, here in Bordeaux, we have a number of vegan/vegan-friendly burger places, a French vegan bistro (just opened this past year and is great), a vegan fusion Asian place (mostly focused on indonesian food), a number of places that do brunch, and so forth, and that doesn't even count the few places we haven't had a chance to try out. And there's also a 100% vegan store in the Bordeaux city center that has artisanal vegan cheese, faux meats etc. I don't go there often as it's spendy, but it's a nice treat every so often. Certainly has made huge improvements since I first moved here and people used to ask my husband if he got sick of eating « carrotes râpées » every evening. 🤪


Thanks for that.

I do make a lot of my own stuff, but always on the lookout for things like vegan cheeses (I have made my own, but not that easy)


----------



## ARPC

I have a number of American acquaintances who hold a fantasy about moving to France related, vaguely, to food, art, culture, and not being around American people or culture or politics that they find disagreeable. I believe it is worth remembering:

If you are speaking mostly in English socially, you will be speaking to lots of American and British people who will be as likely as at home to annoy you. Once your French is strong enough, you will be unable to ignore the same gamut of opinions and modes of belief in French people. The same social negotiations around competing ideologies, the same disappointment at the bizarre conspiracy theories to which otherwise lovely people adhere. 

Further, you will likely spend a lot of time interacting online with the news sites, social networks, and all the digital spaces from home, and the social and cultural gears of the US will likely feel as close as ever. You are not stepping out of American society just by moving your feet.

So. Many. Mediocre. Crap. Boulangeries. The wheat subsidies and social support for boulangeries means one can certainly afford to do it badly and wow, can it be done badly. Do not underestimate the effort that those artisan bakers, coffee grinders, food lactofermenters, and cheese makers of the US have made in the last 25 years. There is not much you can get in France, normal workaday cuisine wise, that can’t be found in its highest form in California.

Give a watch to Super Nanny and “Cleaners, les experts du ménage” on YouTube and bathe yourself in the side of French Culture you will likely encounter most often.

On the language note, I profoundly agree. If you are living in English, you are isolated and limited. This is apparently not the case in other countries where English is widely used (Iceland, Sweden, Netherlands), but in France (maybe not in Paris I have no idea) it’s indispensable.

That is my 200 cents.


----------



## ARPC

julialynn said:


> Since then, things have gotten much better. You have bio chains like BioCoop,


Just because my husband works for a Biocoop I want to point out that Biocoop not a National chain but rather a franchise program. Many small markets, which often pre-existed Biocoop and joined as members to take advantage of buying opportunities and marketing support. The shops operate independently and adhere to their own rules about what products to carry or not (beyond the basic). Some have multiple locations (we have a 4 location single Biocoop member cooperative in Gap) , and that cooperative buys into the Biocoop franchise. But it’s not a chain in the sense of Intermarché. Those shops are independent and all a bit different.

And just while I’m on the subject please do not be fooled by the Intermarché arnaque that is Comptoirs Bio. It is Intermarché, not an independently operating market.

If you move to France you may become crazy like this, too.


----------



## sangfroid

ARPC said:


> I have a number of American acquaintances who hold a fantasy about moving to France related, vaguely, to food, art, culture, and not being around American people or culture or politics that they find disagreeable. I believe it is worth remembering:
> 
> If you are speaking mostly in English socially, you will be speaking to lots of American and British people who will be as likely as at home to annoy you. Once your French is strong enough, you will be unable to ignore the same gamut of opinions and modes of belief in French people. The same social negotiations around competing ideologies, the same disappointment at the bizarre conspiracy theories to which otherwise lovely people adhere.
> 
> Further, you will likely spend a lot of time interacting online with the news sites, social networks, and all the digital spaces from home, and the social and cultural gears of the US will likely feel as close as ever. You are not stepping out of American society just by moving your feet.
> 
> So. Many. Mediocre. Crap. Boulangeries. The wheat subsidies and social support for boulangeries means one can certainly afford to do it badly and wow, can it be done badly. Do not underestimate the effort that those artisan bakers, coffee grinders, food lactofermenters, and cheese makers of the US have made in the last 25 years. There is not much you can get in France, normal workaday cuisine wise, that can’t be found in its highest form in California.
> 
> Give a watch to Super Nanny and “Cleaners, les experts du ménage” on YouTube and bathe yourself in the side of French Culture you will likely encounter most often.
> 
> On the language note, I profoundly agree. If you are living in English, you are isolated and limited. This is apparently not the case in other countries where English is widely used (Iceland, Sweden, Netherlands), but in France (maybe not in Paris I have no idea) it’s indispensable.
> 
> That is my 200 cents.


Well, if you move anywhere based on a fantasy it's probably not going to end well. Any successful move requires conducting copious amounts of due diligence as well as taking exploratory trips (IMHO). Also, I think that's it's poor logic to assume that your new home will be a panacea for the social/societal ills of the U.S. - every country has its share of these problems. 

Now, why would "I" like to move to France? My wife and I are active, outdoors folks who like to bike, hike and walk everywhere. France condenses the vast geographical wonders of the U.S into an area the size of the state of Texas. Combine that with the incredible high speed rail lines, and most destinations are a day trip away. And if you're a hiker, France is crisscrossed by well mapped long distance hiking trails. Anyway, over the years we have ridden our tandem bicycle across France and hiked many of the GR routes.

As for being social and speaking the language, I've taken the time to teach myself to speak and comprehend well enough to get by. My wife and I are friendly but fairly insular - we have enough hobbies to keep us busy without the need to make many friends. We don't do social media at all and have no intention to obsess over what's going on back home. So, France awaits.


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## Bevdeforges

To be quite honest, France really isn't for everyone. There are frustrations and customs that will drive some folks around the bend. Some people can (and do) learn to either live with these things, overlook them or learn to get around them as best they can. And others have to learn "the hard way" by moving here and then finding that they are grossly disappointed in how things turned out. C'est la vie, I guess.


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## ExpatWannaBe55

ARPC said:


> I have a number of American acquaintances who hold a fantasy about moving to France related, vaguely, to food, art, culture, and not being around American people or culture or politics that they find disagreeable. I believe it is worth remembering:
> 
> If you are speaking mostly in English socially, you will be speaking to lots of American and British people who will be as likely as at home to annoy you. Once your French is strong enough, you will be unable to ignore the same gamut of opinions and modes of belief in French people. The same social negotiations around competing ideologies, the same disappointment at the bizarre conspiracy theories to which otherwise lovely people adhere.
> 
> Further, you will likely spend a lot of time interacting online with the news sites, social networks, and all the digital spaces from home, and the social and cultural gears of the US will likely feel as close as ever. You are not stepping out of American society just by moving your feet.


I have to say that I disagree with some of what you say. As sangfroid stated, not all of us are interested in being on social media or checking news sites.
I have just returned from a 10 day "Checking out France" trip. One of the best parts of it was the fact that I was able to completely disconnect/disengage from the craziness that is going on here. I most certainly did step out of American society by moving my feet and a couple of American expats I met who have lived In France for some years have done the same.
Last Saturday, I was walking back to my AirBnB when the local continent of anti-vaxxers & anti maskers were marching through the center of town, banging on drums, blowing whistles & chanting. I stood and watched them go by then brought up my Pass Sanitaire on my phone & held it up for them to see. Several of them noticed as they passed me and shook their head & wagged a finger at me but I was just standing there smiling back at them, showing my phone. It was all good natured and there seemed to be a respect for both positions. I would not DARE do anything like that in the US - I'd be surrounded, yelled at and possibly assaulted. 
So, while one may indeed find similar views in France regarding masks, vaccination and conspiracy theories, the French, at least in my experience, express themselves with dignity & respect.
Upon my return to the US, I discovered that the state I live in reimplemented an indoor mask mandate. However, at the gym I go to, many people disregard the mandate & continue to not wear a mask. The staff just turn a blind eye to it. I never saw anyone in France not wearing a mask where one was required.


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## Nomoss

ExpatWannaBe55 said:


> ........................................................... *while one may indeed find similar views in France regarding masks, vaccination and conspiracy theories, the French, at least in my experience, express themselves with dignity & respect.*
> ...............................................................


Not quite everywhere, though. TOULOUSE


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## corndog

Technically, that ignorant mentality wasn't born in the US out of nothing. Its roots go back to Europe.


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## ARPC

ExpatWannaBe55 said:


> I have to say that I disagree with some of what you say. As sangfroid stated, not all of us are interested in being on social media or checking news sites.
> I have just returned from a 10 day "Checking out France" trip. One of the best parts of it was the fact that I was able to completely disconnect/disengage from the craziness that is going on here. I most certainly did step out of American society by moving my feet and a couple of American expats I met who have lived In France for some years have done the same.
> Last Saturday, I was walking back to my AirBnB when the local continent of anti-vaxxers & anti maskers were marching through the center of town, banging on drums, blowing whistles & chanting. I stood and watched them go by then brought up my Pass Sanitaire on my phone & held it up for them to see. Several of them noticed as they passed me and shook their head & wagged a finger at me but I was just standing there smiling back at them, showing my phone. It was all good natured and there seemed to be a respect for both positions. I would not DARE do anything like that in the US - I'd be surrounded, yelled at and possibly assaulted.
> So, while one may indeed find similar views in France regarding masks, vaccination and conspiracy theories, the French, at least in my experience, express themselves with dignity & respect.
> Upon my return to the US, I discovered that the state I live in reimplemented an indoor mask mandate. However, at the gym I go to, many people disregard the mandate & continue to not wear a mask. The staff just turn a blind eye to it. I never saw anyone in France not wearing a mask where one was required.


Heh, well clearly your 10 days at an Airbnb have blown apart my observations and experience gathered over the last couple of years living actual daily life.

But seriously, to you and the other respondent, I don’t offer these remarks as if they are universal, they come under my initials and follow my very real, feet on the ground, life-based experience and observations of others since 2018 as a younger america-raised adult. Frankly, however, I find the jumps to defensiveness foreboding. Profitez bien, quoi.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Apart from the many reasons I have stated previously (in various parts of this forum), a big reason for us moving to France is "a feeling" that is not easy to nail down.

I get a feeling of belonging. Whether it is because my mother was French, I don't know. Early memories stay for a lifetime and I have been regularly going to France since I was a baby. A lingering memory is the smell of coffee and bread in the morning emanating from the kitchen of my uncle/aunt's house.

The whole way of life simply appeals to me. I always remember as a kid that sinking feeling when we got back home. I always felt I was a misfit in the UK which ended up in me moving abroad (first to NL then to Belgium) in the mid-1980s. I thought that must be the issue (not being comfortable with the UK way of life), but now I am still being drawn towards France.

Sure, France has its issues like anywhere and is no utopia, but the feeling I get just by the thought of living there at last is comforting. Luckily, my wife is happy to go along with it and she also loves the French way of life even though she doesn't have the childhood memories that I treasure. She has, however, worked in France when she was in her early twenties and has fond memories of time spent in Alsace and the Var (although her time in Normandy was not so memorable).

That's my lot, but don't ask me to nail it down!


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## Chrissippus

My wife and I are starting a year-long program of studying French at the Alliance Française here in Bangkok. She'll be starting from scratch while I will be rehabilitating my once passable university French. (I can still read Proust and Choderlos de Laclos.) Next year, plague permitting we will make a scouting trip to France to try to pick a location for a move in mid-2023. Currently, we are considering Aix-en-Provence, Montpellier, and Toulouse. We think a mid-sized city with good train connections, a university, and, especially, an active and welcoming expat community would be best for us, since I know that developing friendships with the locals will be an uphill effort. Looks like Toulouse has a particularly active American expat group.

So, why do we consider France? Well, we enjoy our life in Bangkok, but find that we are a little isolated. I don't have any Thai friends, although I do have a warm relationship with my Thai teacher of many years. What I enjoy most in a foreign culture is the language, especially French since that was my first second language, but Thai has its own quite distinct pleasures, as well. Perfecting my French is a very appealing possibility. We would certainly like to see more of France and of Europe. We look forward to be able to walk about an interesting city which we did a lot of in New York. Bangkok is disappointingly unwalkable. Bangkok is frankly an exhausting city. 

My wife is Thai with US citizenship. She is concerned with encountering racist attitudes in Europe. That's one of the reasons that we think a city with a large university is more likely to have liberal attitudes.

One of the aspects of French culture that I enjoyed in my past visits is that the French are sociable, enjoy conversation, and have strong opinions. Thai culture emphasizes harmony so that disagreement makes Thais uncomfortable. 

The cost of living in Bangkok is a bargain compared to our former life in Manhattan. France is not as cheap, but we can afford it. Enrolling in the Sécu is a big attraction. 

I do have some questions: Do French people have book clubs? Do the French universities have lectures open to the public? Do apartment buildings commonly permit pets, like a small dog? We don't have a dog now, but would like to get one once we have settled into our new location. 

We try to be realistic in our expectations, especially to avoid thinking of residence in France as a sort of vacation. Nevertheless, it does seem to offer advantages over both the US and Thailand.


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## Bevdeforges

Chrissippus said:


> I do have some questions: Do French people have book clubs? Do the French universities have lectures open to the public? Do apartment buildings commonly permit pets, like a small dog? We don't have a dog now, but would like to get one once we have settled into our new location.


For "book club" type activities, you may want to keep an eye on more general associations and activities. I know the local AVF (Accueil des Villes Françaises - a sort of "welcome wagon" organization for newcomers) has traditionally had a couple of book centered activities. It may be easier to get involved in some sort of general group and then volunteer to start a book club along whatever lines you prefer. For several years I ran a book group in English - the books read didn't have to be in English, but at the sessions people had to tell us about what they were reading or had read in English - a great way to get suggestions for new authors and books, while the French (or other) members got the chance to "practice their English" in a practical application.

I'm not aware of French universities hosting open lectures - but they do often have evening or weekend events that are open to the public. One rather "typically French" thing I've noticed is that the towns themselves seem to take considerable responsibility for offering public forums, lectures, festivals, concerts, programs, etc. Keep a sharp eye on whatever newsletter your local mairie puts out for the residents and you may be delightfully surprised at the array of town sponsored activities on offer. (Once the plague is over, of course.)

And, in general, it is widely accepted for tenants to have one or two pets, as long as you're renting an unfurnished place (so it's your furniture at risk <g>). Just remember that it's up to the tenants to return the place to the same condition it was in when you moved in - so any damage is yours to fix. (The rental laws here may be a tad different from what you're used to.)


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## BackinFrance

Most universities in France host public forums of various kinds, this is even more the case for universities that specialise in teaching French as a foreign language, for example I believe Pau university does a great deal of this kind of thing because it is one of the main universities, if not the major one, offering French language tuition and cultural immersion to students of all ages and backgrounds from around the world, but I see it is not on your list.


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## Chrissippus

BackinFrance said:


> Most universities in France host public forums of various kinds, this is even more the case for universities that specialise in teaching French as a foreign language, for example I believe Pau university does a great deal of this kind of thing because it is one of the main universities, if not the major one, offering French language tuition and cultural immersion to students of all ages and backgrounds from around the world, but I see it is not on your list.


Pau looks interesting. A smaller city than we had in mind. Do you live in Pau? If so, what is it like? Are the locals open or not so much? Have you studied French in Pau? Is it possible to study French other than as a matriculated university student? I see that Alliance Francaise does not have location there.


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## Bevdeforges

Chrissippus said:


> Pau looks interesting. A smaller city than we had in mind. Do you live in Pau? If so, what is it like? Are the locals open or not so much? Have you studied French in Pau? Is it possible to study French other than as a matriculated university student? I see that Alliance Francaise does not have location there.


There are plenty of private French language study places all over France. Just search (in a search engine or on Pages Jaune) on "cours de langue française" and you'll turn up all sorts of options - in person or online, as you prefer.


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## Lydi

Lectures open to the public?
You could try the _universités du temps libre / du tiers temps_, like this one at Montpellier university.
Or if you find a university course that you'd like to follow without bothering with exams, you can often enroll as an _auditeur libre_.
Good luck with your move!


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## BackinFrance

Chrissippus said:


> Pau looks interesting. A smaller city than we had in mind. Do you live in Pau? If so, what is it like? Are the locals open or not so much? Have you studied French in Pau? Is it possible to study French other than as a matriculated university student? I see that Alliance Francaise does not have location there.


No, I don't live in Pau, but I am aware of that university's renown. French is my first language as I was born and raised here.


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## frogmobile

Hi! I am a French living in Australia. France is a bureaucratic hell, a repressive regime (be prepared to pay lots of taxes and fines) One of the most unfriendly country to foreigners (especially when they don't speak the language) On the other hand it is a beautiful and culturally rich country, the French can be a s warm and friendly as they can be unpleasant... I still love my country fro that reason...As a rule, quality of life improves dramatically as you move further away from Paris and the big cities into the contryside. Good luck!


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## cnote

amlachance said:


> Ha, yes, I do know about the challenges of being a non meat eater in France. My father-in-law offered me charcuterie each and every visit to France for well over 20 years...you'd think it would sink in at some point! Our fall-back was always creperies (ratatouille being my fav) and pâtes au roquefort. TBH, being a vegetarian in S Korea was way harder than it is in France (and that was just a 10 day trip - never again). I do manage usually to find vegetarian couscous in France, which I love.


No one is beyond redemption.


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## cnote

I have lived in 5 countries, France, Thailand, Spain, UK and Ireland. France seems to me the best. Things I like about France: If french is not your first language you can tune out the racist and reactionary crap you hear in every country on earth. Especially Thailand where a large section of the UK Ex Pats live only to insult their new country. The same racist bigotry is true of UK and France, did not find it as much in Ireland and Spanish spoke too fast for me anyway. The country is varied in climate and geography. It's cheap to buy nice houses in lots of places. I don't get as wound up by local and national politics, because I don't share their history and grievances. The food is high class and the wine is cheap. Supermarkets are not as good as in Thailand but the food available is very good. Markets are great. Architecture is stunning. From a base in France you can winter in Spain or enjoy spring in Switzerland by just driving there. The roads are superb. I love Cyprus, but flying everywhere was a pain.Things I do not like, lack of variety in cuisine. Most 'Thai' restaurants are Chinese or Vietnamese trying to cash in on higher prices. You can't, as you can in other countries, enjoy a wide variety of world cuisine. That's a pain if you are a foodie. They are obsessed with french wine, I once offered rioja to french workmen and they sneered and looked at it as if it were drain cleaner. I love rioja, you can get it in France, but the inherent snobbery of the french regarding their food and drink comes to the fore. They will grudgingly admit Thai food is one of the worlds great cuisines, but genuine ones are hard to find, and expensive. I hate their obsession with set times to eat. I remember an official guide to France which kindly explained that, for health reasons you had to eat at set times. You have to be near a tourist area to get food outside their set hours. I love France, for me it is the best place to live. The major plus overall is the Health Service. If you don't need it now, you will. I have been sick in France and in Spain. In Spain they gave me the wrong treatment which could have killed me and an armed guard followed me to my car and confiscated the crutches the hospital loaned me, only to my car. They told me all medical supplies, even crutches, had to be bought in town next day. France was fabulous, informed there would be a wait for a cat scan, I braced myself for the details, ''They can't see you until the afternoon''. Wow, anywhere else would be ages. And the waiting room was beautiful. Thailand has great hospitals. Health care there would cost me £12k per year and increases of 30% a year past 70. Cancer would leave you penniless. Ireland's health service is nowhere near as good and UK is great if you are dying but terrible if you need an op. For Chrissippus, my wife, who is Thai, loves France. Does not want to go back to Thailand or UK or Spain, and Ireland is too dull and wet. She has found less anti Asian sentiment in France than UK. Her choice to live is France, even though she is fluent in English and has to learn a new language all over again. I love Cyprus, but on balance, dispassionately, France comes out on top, and the trump card is the Health Service, it's properly financed and you will get care and surroundings to equal going private in most countries for very little.


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## cnote

cnote said:


> I have lived in 5 countries, France, Thailand, Spain, UK and Ireland. France seems to me the best. Things I like about France: If french is not your first language you can tune out the racist and reactionary crap you hear in every country on earth. Especially Thailand where a large section of the UK Ex Pats live only to insult their new country. The same racist bigotry is true of UK and France, did not find it as much in Ireland and Spanish spoke too fast for me anyway. The country is varied in climate and geography. It's cheap to buy nice houses in lots of places. I don't get as wound up by local and national politics, because I don't share their history and grievances. The food is high class and the wine is cheap. Supermarkets are not as good as in Thailand but the food available is very good. Markets are great. Architecture is stunning. From a base in France you can winter in Spain or enjoy spring in Switzerland by just driving there. The roads are superb. I love Cyprus, but flying everywhere was a pain.Things I do not like, lack of variety in cuisine. Most 'Thai' restaurants are Chinese or Vietnamese trying to cash in on higher prices. You can't, as you can in other countries, enjoy a wide variety of world cuisine. That's a pain if you are a foodie. They are obsessed with french wine, I once offered rioja to french workmen and they sneered and looked at it as if it were drain cleaner. I love rioja, you can get it in France, but the inherent snobbery of the french regarding their food and drink comes to the fore. They will grudgingly admit Thai food is one of the worlds great cuisines, but genuine ones are hard to find, and expensive. I hate their obsession with set times to eat. I remember an official guide to France which kindly explained that, for health reasons you had to eat at set times. You have to be near a tourist area to get food outside their set hours. I love France, for me it is the best place to live. The major plus overall is the Health Service. If you don't need it now, you will. I have been sick in France and in Spain. In Spain they gave me the wrong treatment which could have killed me and an armed guard followed me to my car and confiscated the crutches the hospital loaned me, only to my car. They told me all medical supplies, even crutches, had to be bought in town next day. France was fabulous, informed there would be a wait for a cat scan, I braced myself for the details, ''They can't see you until the afternoon''. Wow, anywhere else would be ages. And the waiting room was beautiful. Thailand has great hospitals. Health care there would cost me £12k per year and increases of 30% a year past 70. Cancer would leave you penniless. Ireland's health service is nowhere near as good and UK is great if you are dying but terrible if you need an op. For Chrissippus, my wife, who is Thai, loves France. Does not want to go back to Thailand or UK or Spain, and Ireland is too dull and wet. She has found less anti Asian sentiment in France than UK. Her choice to live is France, even though she is fluent in English and has to learn a new language all over again. I love Cyprus, but on balance, dispassionately, France comes out on top, and the trump card is the Health Service, it's properly financed and you will get care and surroundings to equal going private in most countries for very little.


I did not address bureaucracy. It can be a pain, is getting better, and if you have the means several services exist to do it for you. I will pay somebody else, but the expat network will help you out and the French at Marie level are always helpful.


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## Chrissippus

cnote said:


> I have lived in 5 countries, France, Thailand, Spain, UK and Ireland. France


Thanks, Cnote, for the most down-to-earth review of life in France that I have seen so far.


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## Chrissippus

cnote said:


> I have lived in 5 countries, France, Thailand, Spain, UK and Ireland.


How would you compare your cost of living between Thailand and France? Were you living in Bangkok? We live Bangkok's CBD and are thinking of Toulouse, but haven't made any decision. We like major cities and public transportation.


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## Tonythepilot86

Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Great idea this thread BTW


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## andthushesaid

I myself have not yet fully relocated to France. However, the decision has been made for quite some time, so I'll offer up a couple of reasons why I personally chose France:

*1. Profession*
I've lived till now in the Midwest of the US where my art form (opera) is not a native/prominent part of the culture. It can be easier perhaps in NYC to make a living this way, but in general America's not the best place for it. While being an artist by trade comes with its inherent challenges, it goes without saying that France (a) has a much more vibrant arts culture, (b) supports them with more funding, and (c) is adjacent to multiple countries where the arts also thrive, opening up international work opportunities.

*2. Family*
This one is obvious. If you have a loved one living in France, you'll weigh out whether you'd like to deal with all the challenges mentioned on this thread vs. being without them. It depends on the individual.

*3. Work-Life Balance*
This is obviously a more debatable topic and depends on where you're coming from. For Americans, this is a huge draw. Here, we often feel as though we live to work; in France, the general attitude is work to _live_. For example, my American company starts by offering employees 2 weeks PTO; any additional days which may be accrued with seniority rarely exceed three weeks, even after a decade or two of service. My very same company in France, however, offers a minimum of 6 weeks PTO—4 of which are suggested to be taken consecutively somewhere between May and October. In discussion with my French family and friends, this is their standard.

*4. International Travel*
Yes, there is plenty to see in one's own country. Here in the US, there is very little opportunity nearby to experience foreign culture, aside from Mexico (for which 'nearby' is relative, because our country is gigantic and the border is comparatively small). What's more, the cost for international flights to and from the US are ridiculously more expensive than those amongst most European countries.


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## kakaste

Chrissippus said:


> How would you compare your cost of living between Thailand and France? Were you living in Bangkok? We live Bangkok's CBD and are thinking of Toulouse, but haven't made any decision. We like major cities and public transportation.


Hi, Thailand is going to be cheaper. Though housing is really cheap in France when you compare the quality of houses. They build to last centuries, not to shift to expats. There won't be a great difference if you live well in Bk. And eat out at falang places. Cars are much dearer in Thailand. France is full of great seafood at reasonable prices, food is dearer than street food and Thai places in Thailand and BKK. In Thailand you can choose to eat cheaply and live very cheaply. There is not that option in France. Markets seem to be dearer than shops. France is cheaper than a lot of European countries and dearer than others. About in the middle. The real advantages come with housing in rural France, quality of medical services and quality of food at reasonable prices. paying less for a house gives you more to spend elsewhere. Condos in BKK are grossly overpriced. Big houses outside the cities of France can be stunning and relatively cheap.


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## Lalla

cnote said:


> I have lived in 5 countries, France, Thailand, Spain, UK and Ireland. France seems to me the best. Things I like about France: If french is not your first language you can tune out the racist and reactionary crap you hear in every country on earth. Especially Thailand where a large section of the UK Ex Pats live only to insult their new country. The same racist bigotry is true of UK and France, did not find it as much in Ireland and Spanish spoke too fast for me anyway. The country is varied in climate and geography. It's cheap to buy nice houses in lots of places. I don't get as wound up by local and national politics, because I don't share their history and grievances. The food is high class and the wine is cheap. Supermarkets are not as good as in Thailand but the food available is very good. Markets are great. Architecture is stunning. From a base in France you can winter in Spain or enjoy spring in Switzerland by just driving there. The roads are superb. I love Cyprus, but flying everywhere was a pain.Things I do not like, lack of variety in cuisine. Most 'Thai' restaurants are Chinese or Vietnamese trying to cash in on higher prices. You can't, as you can in other countries, enjoy a wide variety of world cuisine. That's a pain if you are a foodie. They are obsessed with french wine, I once offered rioja to french workmen and they sneered and looked at it as if it were drain cleaner. I love rioja, you can get it in France, but the inherent snobbery of the french regarding their food and drink comes to the fore. They will grudgingly admit Thai food is one of the worlds great cuisines, but genuine ones are hard to find, and expensive. I hate their obsession with set times to eat. I remember an official guide to France which kindly explained that, for health reasons you had to eat at set times. You have to be near a tourist area to get food outside their set hours. I love France, for me it is the best place to live. The major plus overall is the Health Service. If you don't need it now, you will. I have been sick in France and in Spain. In Spain they gave me the wrong treatment which could have killed me and an armed guard followed me to my car and confiscated the crutches the hospital loaned me, only to my car. They told me all medical supplies, even crutches, had to be bought in town next day. France was fabulous, informed there would be a wait for a cat scan, I braced myself for the details, ''They can't see you until the afternoon''. Wow, anywhere else would be ages. And the waiting room was beautiful. Thailand has great hospitals. Health care there would cost me £12k per year and increases of 30% a year past 70. Cancer would leave you penniless. Ireland's health service is nowhere near as good and UK is great if you are dying but terrible if you need an op. For Chrissippus, my wife, who is Thai, loves France. Does not want to go back to Thailand or UK or Spain, and Ireland is too dull and wet. She has found less anti Asian sentiment in France than UK. Her choice to live is France, even though she is fluent in English and has to learn a new language all over again. I love Cyprus, but on balance, dispassionately, France comes out on top, and the trump card is the Health Service, it's properly financed and you will get care and surroundings to equal going private in most countries for very little.


You have reminded me of an experience I had when I was a student doing my year abroad in Paris. I attended an English/French conversation group. One time they organised a meal in one person's flat, where we had to each bring a bottle to drink. I took along a Rioja, and the French attendees handed it round looking at the label and muttering. When it was opened, they made a point of pulling faces and repeatedly commenting, "C'est du vinaigre!". So rude! But then, that's Parisians for you...


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## rickjames8

Wow - Came here to add my thoughts and was surprised to see 2 other Ex-Thai expats (cnote, kakaste). I too lived in Thailand, for 8 years. Most of that time was spent on Koh Tao, but the last 3 years we divided our time between Koh Tao and Khao Lak, flip-flopping between the two coasts every 6 months, following the good diving season for each (we were scuba instructors). We loved Thailand, and if I were solo I might have stayed, but my wife had wanted to leave years before me and I kept convincing her to stay 'one more year' until we just decided it was time to go. I have such amazing memories of Thailand. Sure there were burecratic oddities you needed to deal with, but that's part of living abroad for me. Even, maybe, part of the charm. 

So why France? Well, for me, 90% of our decision is based on family. My wife is French and she's been out of France for about 20 years. We have a kid now and there are relatives in France that want to see him more than once a year. Another driver to leave is wanting to leave the US. Things feel so divided and hateful here right now. I'm sure France has similar issues, but as others in this thread have said, when it's not your own history it's easier not to pay attention to it. I'm addicted to my news feed here and it feels like the pandemic pulled back the curtain on a lot of things that we previously were unaware of. 

My wife and I lived in France for one year (2012-2013). We volunteered with WOOF and got to go all over the country, and I really fell in love with the culture and lifestyle. Also, we'll be going from a metro area (Washington DC) to a small town (12,000 people) so I'm looking forward to that change as well. Both my wife and son are excited about the move and it feels good to be excited about something again. The past couple years have been so hard on everyone, that to have that excitetment is a welcomed change.


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## LFBEUSTON

Bevdeforges said:


> We very often get newcomers to the forum here who post a brief message asking about how to start preparing for a move to France. Sometimes these folks are pounced upon by some of our more "enthusiastic" forum regulars, challenging them with the same old questions - the first of which is often "Why France?"
> 
> Thought we should start a generic thread on things to consider up front when even just thinking about a voluntary move to France. (Assuming that, in a work-related move, you have your employer to fall back on for guidance, or in a student move, the demands of the program will affect your choice of venue.)
> 
> So - let's have some ideas about what you should be considering before you decide that you're moving to France. Let the games begin.
> 
> (If you have questions related to your situation, please start a new thread for your question. We need to keep this thread strictly generic.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Lived in France for 22 years. People will have many reasons for wanting to live here but it all distils down to two things: Finance and communication. A very detailed plan regarding finances should be worked out. All very well buying a cheap property or living on a glass of wine and cheese but life is more than that and if you don't get the financial side right then back you go, worse off than when you arrived! With regards communication: Learning French is extremely important, depending where you live!!! If in an ex pat enclave( God forbid!) then learning French is hardly necessary. Should you not live in an enclave then at least some basic French is definitely required. In any event, it is an insult to the French to at least not try and speak the language!!


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## Bevdeforges

LFBEUSTON said:


> Learning French is extremely important, depending where you live!!! If in an ex pat enclave( God forbid!) then learning French is hardly necessary.


The need to know the local language comes up at the oddest times. What happens if you notice your neighbor's house is on fire. Chances are the fire station doesn't have someone on hand who speaks English. Or you have an accident and are taken to a hospital. Again, outside the tourist areas, it's rare that the hospital staff will be able to treat you in your own language. You need to speak some basic French and be able to understand responses, even if you find that expat enclave.


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## ko12

Bevdeforges said:


> outside the tourist areas, it's rare that the hospital staff will be able to treat you in your own language


I have to disagree up to a point. This area does get tourists (almost all French) but when I've been in hospital (several times) there have been a lot of doctors and nurses eager to try out their English (risky; dangerous!). The only one whose English I trusted was a Professor (and surgeon) from Bordeaux who had trained many surgeons in his speciality in UK. So, essential to have decent French or, at the very least some basic vocabulary such as bassin and (exclusively for men) pistolet.


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## Chrissippus

kakaste said:


> Hi, Thailand is going to be cheaper. Though housing is really cheap in France when you compare the quality of houses. They build to last centuries, not to shift to expats. There won't be a great difference if you live well in Bk. And eat out at falang places. Cars are much dearer in Thailand. France is full of great seafood at reasonable prices, food is dearer than street food and Thai places in Thailand and BKK. In Thailand you can choose to eat cheaply and live very cheaply. There is not that option in France. Markets seem to be dearer than shops. France is cheaper than a lot of European countries and dearer than others. About in the middle. The real advantages come with housing in rural France, quality of medical services and quality of food at reasonable prices. paying less for a house gives you more to spend elsewhere. Condos in BKK are grossly overpriced. Big houses outside the cities of France can be stunning and relatively cheap.


This is interesting. We are looking to live in a middle class urban setting. Here in Bangkok we are some of the amenities of upper middle class life in New York City such as a two-bedroom, two bathroom apartment (132 sq. m.) in a full-service building with a swimming pool for about USD 1800 per month, which doesn't strike us as grossly overpriced. I long ago retired from driving, so country life will not be for us, plus we like the attractions of the cities. Currently considering Toulouse. From apartment listings it looks like we can get a comparable apartment there for 10% to 15% more than we are spending, which is within our budget, but full-service buildings are apparently rare.


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## Bevdeforges

ko12 said:


> So, essential to have decent French or, at the very least some basic vocabulary such as bassin and (exclusively for men) pistolet.


I don't think we're disagreeing here. I live in Ile de France (i.e. the Paris region), which is ultimate "tourist area" within France. My one and only (knock wood) hospital experience was for appendicitis and during my (somewhat prolonged) stay, the only staff member who admitted speaking English was an orderly who wheeled me up from the ER to the temporary room they found for me in the middle of the night. (He was from one of the Dutch islands in the Caribbean.) Several of the nurses admitted to having studied English in high school but they wouldn't dare attempt to "practice" with me. (Which was fine by me once I acquired the basic hospital vocabulary.) 

When I was in Germany, I had to take a "first aid" class in order to get my German driving license and the very first thing they did in that class was to drill us in how to call in an accident report from the road - all auf Deutsch. That's the sort of basic language skills everyone really needs when they move somewhere with a different language.


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## LFBEUSTON

Bevdeforges said:


> I don't think we're disagreeing here. I live in Ile de France (i.e. the Paris region), which is ultimate "tourist area" within France. My one and only (knock wood) hospital experience was for appendicitis and during my (somewhat prolonged) stay, the only staff member who admitted speaking English was an orderly who wheeled me up from the ER to the temporary room they found for me in the middle of the night. (He was from one of the Dutch islands in the Caribbean.) Several of the nurses admitted to having studied English in high school but they wouldn't dare attempt to "practice" with me. (Which was fine by me once I acquired the basic hospital vocabulary.)
> 
> When I was in Germany, I had to take a "first aid" class in order to get my German driving license and the very first thing they did in that class was to drill us in how to call in an accident report from the road - all auf Deutsch. That's the sort of basic language skills everyone really needs when they move somewhere with a different language.


I think that German idea is an excellent one. I'm always surprised at the lack of first aid skills people have. As for language, basic 'stuff' is essential.


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## Chrissippus

One of the answers to "Why France?" is because of the lower level of inequality compared to the US. The following graph depicts one measure of inequality.


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## TomMM

Why France or more specifically Paris? I am about to turn 60, have accomplished everything I set out to in life and career and now want a new life in a new land. The past 12 years I’ve traveled extensively around the globe looking for a new home and realized it would be in Europe. So why Paris? Well it’s Paris! Joking aside, I really like the lifestyle and it matches how I want to continue living my life. It isn’t perfect and can be frustrating at times(still don’t have a bank account!) but I enjoy life there more than in the US. In January I leased an apartment in Paris have have been making monthly trips attempting to slowly integrate to a Parisian lifestyle and found myself not wanting to return home. Finally got off my butt and applied for my visa which I received 2 days ago and now looking to be full time in Paris in about 3 weeks.


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## Bevdeforges

Good for you! And welcome to Paris. Ah, you will discover the whole range of bureaucracy, frustration and who knows what else. But as I've long contended, anywhere you go in the world, there are some people there who wouldn't dream of leaving their "home." It is possible to be happy almost anywhere you choose - even if it takes some serious decisions to enjoy what you've got. Sounds like you're definitely on the right path here in Paris.


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## TomMM

Thanks for the welcome. Now that I am through the visa process I am trying to navigate the OFII process. When I initially read the OFII overview document could have sworn there was no language requirement for retired persons but now I see it is aged based. Looks like I'll be saving money with the free French lessons!


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## 1790260

cnote said:


> Things I do not like, lack of variety in cuisine. Most 'Thai' restaurants are Chinese or Vietnamese trying to cash in on higher prices. You can't, as you can in other countries, enjoy a wide variety of world cuisine. That's a pain if you are a foodie. They are obsessed with french wine, I once offered rioja to french workmen and they sneered and looked at it as if it were drain cleaner. I love rioja, you can get it in France, but the inherent snobbery of the french regarding their food and drink comes to the fore. They will grudgingly admit Thai food is one of the worlds great cuisines, but genuine ones are hard to find, and expensive.


I'm reading back through the forum, in my idle moments, and cnote's aware and detailed post made my effort worthwhile. The above quote particularly resonated with me. 

I like my food (a gourmand rather a gourmet) and like Thai food particularly, but it really is nowhere to be found around here. I will always try out a Thai restaurant, if there is one, whenever I travel in France but have to find anywhere worth a second visit. I did once have a good beef salad (Yum Nua) in La Rochelle but their Pad Thai was a sludgy, sweet mess. The 'chain' restaurant Pitaya is disappointing to say the least. I've given up. As a general rule, you don't get variety around here and pizza places out number French restaurants. Pizza is clearly liked. I find lunch out to be the better, more reliable option these days, both in terms of price and satisfaction; 'bonne raport qualitie/prix' as they say. Fortunately, a satisfactory lunch is never far away.

Wines, well. I do have a bias. I like the new world whites (a Chilean or NZ sauvignon blanc for example, or a cold Australian chardonnay) but they are not so easy to come by in the local supermarkets. Fortunately, I like the Touraine sauvignons and with Sancere being local, there's a good supply and choice. Tbh, I discovered pinot noir in France, so that's a plus. And, in fairness, who can object to a good Bordeaux?

An amusing cheese story; I was asked (by some French friends) what my favourite cheese was. I don't really have *one* favourite anything, as a true gourmand there tends to be any number of foods/wines/cheeses that I enjoy. However, to answer the question is a hopefully stereotypical and slightly cheeky way, I said cheddar. The laugh I got took me by surprise. There really was shades of dare I say snobbery, as if no serious liker of cheese would like cheddar. I do like cheddar as it happens. Having been brought up with sizeable blocks of it, I remain partial. That said, I do find more than acceptable French alternatives in Cantal and Salers. For whatever reason, I've never really been fussed with the classic French camembert nor brie. Funny old world innit?


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