# Unfriendly Farangs



## AussieSteve

I've been going to the gym for about 3 months and usually see the same faces there. I often see farangs but for some reason most avoid eye contact.

In the gym today I had the locker next to a farang again he avoided eye contact I even said "how are you". Nothing................. as if I wasn't even there. Same last week met this guy that I see all the time, at the entrance, said hi he just looked at me.

There are exceptions, one guy returned my greeting and we had a bit of a conversation.

Yet the Thai's often great me with a wai.

Why do these people do that? Are they so caught up in their little world of avoiding talking to anyone that they ignore anyone trying to be friendly.

It's not as if I'm trying to be their best friend, just a friendly hello would be nice. I always wait until I have seen them a couple of times before I say anything.


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## joseph44

Is it possible maybe that the "unfriendly" farang doesn't understand you?


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## tod-daniels

Here's a news flash AussieSteve; 

OFF TOPIC (semi rant):
The thaiz that greet you with a wai do so not because they give two ****es about you, but because they're pre-programmed to wai people they perceive as superior in social standing. 

I'd bet dollars to durian those thaiz that wai you are just low level workers. That's what thais do, greet superiors with a wai. So you, a customer of the gym, the bank, the supermarket, restaurant, etc are superior to the rank-n-file, counter help, doormen, maids, waiters, etc.. 

I am firmly of the mind that a foreigner here should NEVER wai a thai! If a thai wai's you just nod, that's fine. Also, FYI; never ever return a wai to a thai child if one wai's you! It is such bad luck that thaiz believe it shortens the life of the child you wai'd. 

Thaiz are hard-wired from birth by their rigid social indoctrination (read; brain-washing) that people from a higher social standing, people who are richer, people who are older, people who are better educated, better dressed, have a nicer car, etc are to be wai'd. Thaiz love cubby-holing everyone into nice little niches as far as where someone stands on the imaginary "socio-economic ladder 'o success" 

It is my direct experience that it's totally hog wash.. 

In 10 years I've been here, after meeting prime ministers, more governmental officials than I could shake a stick at, tonz of Police, and officials wearing oh-so tight uniforms with doohickies and bangles hangin off them; I've never ever wai'd a single thai even a single time! Yet, NOT once did I feel that I was looked down on by the thais for not doin' it..

BACK ON TOPIC:
As far as foreigners not acknowledging other foreigners. Well, I dunno how long you've been here but... This place is a freak show, flotsam-jetsam and detritus from every country washes up here willy-nilly. No one really knows who's who, what their story is or honestly cares all that much. 

Sorry, but the fact that you're another foreigner in thailand isn't enough for me to acknowledge you if we passed on the Soi. 

Now if you greeted me I'd greet you back, because I was taught as a boy that courtesy doesn't take a college degree, but that's just me.. 

So, to recap; that thaiz greet you with a wai means nothing at all and the fact foreigners don't acknowledge you doesn't mean anything either. 

Got it?


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## Newforestcat

Hello Steve,

As a Thai, I cannot really disagree with most of what Todd has said. I will come back to the subject later.

From my humble point of view, it does not matter what you get back, you just do what you think is right, as long as you hurt nobody in the process. I have lived in the UK for years, but, most often, I just say Hello and talk to strangers. Most of the time, the response is good. But sometimes, I just got a murderous look back. Once, I remember vividly in London, I was looked at from head to toes a few time really nastily by an Aussie woman at my age. Did I look like a tramp? No far far from it. I don't give a monkey about it. 

Quite often I am the one asked by Brit 'What did they just say/announce (in English)?' on the train or plane. Given that I am Thai, I try not to laugh. But I always answer back with straight face. And amazingly, my hearing seems to be better than theirs.

You are sure not the loser. Just keep being positive and friendly and don't care about why people wai you or ignore you. The sun does not stop shining most days in Thailand, just be like that. Don't let anyone change who you are or be embittered by small things or small-minded people.

I think most people in the world know what Hello or Hi means. A smile never costs a thing.

As for wai, I am brought up to wai anyone older. But being a stubborn person that I am, I only wai anyone older whom I respect first. I never change that, because my profession never forces me to wai just anyone. I tend to just say Sawaddee ka first to anyone. If someone does wai me first, I ALWAYS make sure I wai back. It is the most appropriate thing to do. If someone shows you some respect, either sincere or not, you return the favour. I see nothing wrong with that, and refuse to think too much about why people wai me, because there are other important things to do.

You may get away with not returning wai, as a farang, I will not, except in shops or restaurants. But I wai EVERYONE back and always thank people. I almost always get the best services and discounts because I genuinely treat people with respect, regardless of their social standings. 

I think it is easier to have a conversation with a lone stranger. If they are together as a group, it could go either way. There are friendly and unfriendly people/sheep everywhere in the world. Some people behave somewhat differently around their friends, due to the need to be accepted, fear, etc.


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## AussieSteve

Thanks Newforestcat I always return a wai as I think it is good manners, thats why I was surprised when my "hi" wasn't returned just a bored expression in one case and complete ignorance in the other.


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## Donutz2

Personally I would always return a Hi or a wai, unless it caught completely by surprise and not being able to return the greeting. 

Some people may not speak English but how few people never heard of "hey", "hi", "hello" etc. Or even if you never heard of "goodmorning/day/evening" it's quite clear somebody is giving you a greeting, just reply back in your own tongue... I've traveled abroad and some people would say something to me in a tongue I do not speak (I only speak Dutch, English, German, a few words of French, a few words of Thai and remember how to say hello in Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Indonesian and Japanese), I'd just return a "hello" (English) or "hallo" (Dutch) and smile. A smile does wonders... 

Can't be that hard, can it? Guess lots of people can't be bothered to return a greeting. I don't usually greet strangers though. Probably only if I would want to talk to them or got a bit more familiar (seeing them on several occasions, just as you wrote) and maybe want some small talk. Greeting every person would just be silly ofcourse, as are those returnin wais to the Thai staff (doormen etc.).  

When in doubt or not looking for any conversation at all, nod gently and smile (and walk away?)... every person should be able to do that. Seems like the polite thing to do for me...


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## tod-daniels

Just an FYI; Few foreigners indeed understand the intricacies of the thai wai to the point they can pull off even a half-a**ed version of a wai. 

It is a complex set of convoluted rules which were beaten into the heads of thaiz when they were kids. Things like, how high on your chest do you place your hands, how low do you bow (if at all) and for how long do you hold the hands pressed together. All of those things come into play in the subconscious of a thai wai'ing someone. They do it on auto-pilot and it seems effortless.

Foreigners just don't realize most of the time they look like half-wits wai'ing thaiz period. That you return wai's is on you, not me. I've seen clueless foreigners wai'ing supermarket check out staff, door men, 7/11 workers, restaurant service staff and limbless beggars on the Soi. It makes me embarrassed to be another foreigner living here..:redface:

Most of the time when a thai wai's me, I'll turn and glance behind me, then back at the thai, as if to ask, is someone important following me? Usually that gets 'em to laugh or crack a smile.  

A very good thai friend of mine for the last 9 years asked me why they've never seen me wai. I asked him in thai if the wai is a sign of respect? He said it was, and I said, "As soon as I meet a thai here that I respect, I promise I'll wai them".. He laughed so hard he almost fell off his chair.

I'm living proof that it just plain doesn't need to be done, ever; and not a thai you interact with will give it a second thought. 

I am not advocating insensitivity towards the "mythical beast" known as "thai culture". It's one thing to understand the oxymoronic cultural restrictions these people operate inside of, and another thing entirely to imagine just because foreigners live here we have to ape or mimic how thaiz act. Sorry, I'm 100% American; born-bred-corn fed; I just choose to live in and amongst these people, I don't wanna become "one with the collective".. 

I'm also not saying don't be polite or courteous. It's just I was taught people earn respect. It's not something you hand out willy-nilly because someone is older, better dressed, of a higher social standing, better educated, blah-blah-blah.. I've met a LOT of old people who made me wonder how they managed to live so long being so stupid.. Same with people better educated, better dressed, or on an imaginary higher rung of the ladder 'o success. 

I've got two t-shirts which I wear occasionally. One says, "Why wai? Are you thai?", the other one says, "Silly foreigner; waiz are for thaiz". 

Please, do what ever makes you happy. I most certainly ain't the thai culture police. 

Oh, if you see a guy wearing levis, a KISS band t-shirt & ball cap walking with a cane that looks more like a club than a walking stick, for god sakes DON'T wai me!


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## neilr

I must admit that I make little effort to acknowledge another ferang in the street, and that is not because I am unsociable, anyone who knows me would be able to back that up. With me, I am a bit choosy who I want to talk to out here.

As Tod alluded to above, there is flotsam-jetsam and detritus from every country that washes up here willy-nilly, and a number of them I have observed, after several beers, are not the type of people I want to get to know or be associated with for one reason or another. In part, I came here to get away from those sort of characters.

As I walk around Udon Thani, I do not expect every ferang I pass to say hello, or try to engage me in any kind of interaction, those that say hi, will get a polite response but I will continue walking and leaving it at that.

I would suggest to not take it personally, and let people do what they do, as long as it doesn't go some way to ruining your day.

As for the Thai's....I return a wai to my close family at formal occasions, but rarely do it beyond that. As 'cute' as it is, I would rather the Thai's did not raise a wai to me at all, as I do not consider myself to be better than them in any respect. When handing over money to a young Thai lady, after a lovely massage, then okay I will accept that as I know they are genuinely grateful for the money they have just made from making my day a little better.


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## AussieSteve

Fair comment, although I did say I had seen these people in the gym before I actually said hi to them.


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## neilr

AussieSteve said:


> Fair comment, although I did say I had seen these people in the gym before I actually said hi to them.


Obviously I can't speak on that persons behalf, but it could be one of lots of reasons I guess, though I accept unlikely....

Could be deaf
Could be mute
Did not understand what you said - speaks no English
Didn't hear you, although not deaf.
He was day-dreaming - I know I do sometimes 
Perhaps he doesn't like Australian's and gives all of them a wide berth (I do this with drunken idiots - from all countries)

Like I said, don't let it get to you :thumb:


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## gnazi71

I had collegues that would not answer a "hello" while they were waiting the elevator (I used stairs, worked on 1. floor).
I think that there are simply many unpolite/rude people.


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## thai-insights

I'd just like to comment on this "to wai or not to wai" controversy which has sprung up in this thread.

It's true that much of the wai-ing in the hospitality industry is gratuitous, and probably not especially heartfelt. Guidebooks correctly advise that it isn't expected that the customer reciprocate. When a waitress says, "Enjoy your food" in America, do you really think this is heartfelt, or are they just trying to butter you up in the hopes that they'll get a bigger tip? I suppose the answer is sometimes 'yes,' sometimes 'no.' 

But wai-ing it also is an important part of Thai social etiquette which all visitors should be aware of. Anytime you are introduced to someone, and they wai you, it is important that you return the gesture. While a foreigner might be forgiven for not following this etiquette, doing so marks you as a person not familiar with Thai culture and customs. In my opinion, refusing to return a wai in a social situation, is akin to refusing to shake someone's hand or refusing to take a business card when it is offered. If a Thai person behaved in such a manner in America, most people would doubtlessly label that person ill-mannered or rude. 

The wai also has a spiritual component. Monks are wai-ed, as are important religious sites and artifacts. In India, (which has had a deep influence on Thai culture) the primary meaning of the wai is to acknowledge a deep or spiritual connection to whom the gesture is made. I have been told by Thais that for them the wai means "I recognize the goodness in you."


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## tod-daniels

Dunno that I buy into all that nonsense about the "wai" which "thai-insights" so willingly shared. Google the term and you get more mindless foreigners weighing in on the significance of it, the importance of it, the cultural identity part of it, and I've found it's mostly just recycled nonsense.

It's certainly important to these people, but that doesn't cut any ice with me. I'm not thai, and every thai who sees me knows that right off. The fact that I choose to live here is not enough inducement to make me morph into a foreign wanna-b-thai. I'm 100% American; born, bred and corn fed.

Don't mis-remember; my lack of wai'ing does NOT mean I don't understand it's important to the thaiz, nor does it mean I don't acknowledge it with a nod of my head, but that's all they're gonna get off me from it. It's just not important to me, period, end of story. 

Oh, I also don't shake hands, or take business cards willy nilly off japanese people either. Mostly that's because I walk with a cane in my right hand and it's hard to balance. Don't get me wrong I certainly could wai, I choose not to. 

Ask a thai, any thai; most have no idea at all where the wai gesture originated, why they do it or anything of that sort. It's pounded into their heads since before they could walk/talk. I wish I had a baht every time I saw a mother grab her little thai baby's hands and press them into a wai when meeting people. If that's not not so subtle brain-washing I don't know what is.

I honestly think in today's day and age that if a foreigner doesn't wai, it means nothing negative at all to that particular thai. I don't think it reflects on a foreigner's lack of cultural understanding or anything of the sort. You're grasping at straws there tryin' to defend something which the thaiz don't care about in the least.

As I said, I've met more "people in power" in this country than I care to remember, never wai'd a single one, yet I was treated with courtesy in that and every subsequent interaction. 

It is my experience here after 10+ years surrounded by these people (the thaiz) that they're spiritual or buddhist when it suits them to be. It's like me and christianity, when it works out for me to play the "i'm christian" card I do.

I think foreigners, especially clue-less half wits make more out of wai'ing than the thaiz do. Sheesh, it's their gesture, if they let it go when I don't wai, what foreigner has the right to call me or any other foreigner on it? Who do you think you are the thai culture police?

I've talked to tonz of thaiz in thai about it and they said, most foreigner massacre the wai so badly that the thaiz wish they didn't even try to do it. It doesn't endear you to them, they are not enamored by your attempts, they don't think you're embracing thai culture. In fact, they're more put off by it than anything else. It's just because they're thai and thaiz follow rigid "rules of engagement" they can't tell you to your face that you look like a fool wai'ing. 

Honestly I don't care if you wai your head off. I mean if it makes you feel better, if you feel "more in touch with the thaiz", knock yourself out. 

I will continue to live here in thailand by the adage "wai'z are for thaiz". 

BTW: I come downright unhinged if a foreigner wai'z me.


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## tod-daniels

Now, now, don't get your knickers in a knot!

I too have lived cheek to jowl with the these people in their country for the last 10 years. I've watched them and observed thai-thai interactions and thai-foreign ones for hours and hours. 

I've also got a good 7+ of thai language study under my belt and I happen to speak, understand, read and type thai just fine. Then again, I don't speak thai like a thai. I speak thai like I speak american english, blunt, terse, coarse, to the point and I occasionally use profanity for emphasis. I didn't want to give up who/what I am just because I'm speaking with these people in their language.. 

Sadly I've spent more hours than I want to admit studying the mythical beast known as "thai culture" mostly by reading stuff printed in thai. To the article it seems everything I've read is designed to compel these people into a code of conduct using an imaginary set of criteria which by today's standards are non-issues. Please don't misremember, I'm NOT saying don't understand thai culture or customs, I'm saying as foreigners here we're not obligated to follow them in the least. 

Understanding how thaiz act and aping or mimicking them are horses of a different color entirely.. 

I invested the time I did studying the cultural stuff of the thaiz for two reasons; 

Firstly you have to stomach a good dose of what makes thaiz tick in regards to culture/customs before you can really learn the nuances of the thai language. You need to understand how these people think, act, behave and talk to one another or you're just gonna be another foreigner who speaks piss poor thai. 

Secondly, I took their blind adherence to these cultural "rules of engagement" and developed tactics to use when interacting with them. By that I mean I can back thaiz into a corner where the only face saving way out for them culturally, is to do what I wanted them to do in the first place. 

I'm just saying foreigners put way more emphasis on this stuff than the thaiz do where foreigners are concerned, and it's THEIR stuff! Be it the wai, or anything remotely close to thai culture, customs, social values.. It's just not that important to the rank-n-file thaiz. Nor will they somehow jump to the conclusion that you're slighting them by not following what ever imaginary action you think they do. 

After 10 years here, I don't think I've ever seen a thai jump to ANY conclusion, especially where foreigners are concerned, they just plain don't care. 

Just an FYI; anyone who gets information off wiki without checking the sources, vetting it very carefully has only a rudimentary sugar-coated idea at best of any topic. It's an open source information service. Granted nowadays they do a lot better vetting and editing spurious stuff, but it still is what it is. Even Wiki in the thai language is that way. 

Quoting Wiki as a source of honest to goodness information is like listening to Fox News in the US and saying they're fair and balanced!

No disrespect is intended or implied to either the thaiz or any foreigners and I certainly didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers with what I wrote. 

FWIW: I don't look down on the thaiz anymore than I look down on everyone. I'm sort of an equal opportunity disparager in that regard. I only single out stupidity, I don't care about your race, creed or color. 

Please, feel free to wai to your hearts content. 

My opinions are just that, mine. The way I am here has worked out fine for me during the last 10 years with of all levels of thai society. 

I'm not sayin' do what I do, I'm sayin' make your own decision, but at least think about what you're doin'.


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## KellerCC

I generally agree with Thai insights on this. Ive lived here 13+ years and generally do a relaxed version of what a Thai my age would do - wai older people and monks, especially since they usually wai first. But if a student of mine or someone in a shop wais I don't reply in kind, I just nod. If I'm in a situation where many people are wai- ing each other I join in. Its not an imposition, I don't feel my integrity is being compromised, in fact get into the spirit of it and it feels good. But then I'm 47 and the system is designed so that the older you get the more respect you receive and the more relaxed you can be about replying. I remember when I lived here in my twenties I was more confused and conflicted about the issue.


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## stednick

Robyn.fnq said:


> Wow! I can't believe the arrogance of some people on this thread.
> I think, originally it was about how farang treat other farang with discourtesy, but turned into a slanging match about the wai ...
> :fencing:
> In my humble opinion (which no doubt will be ignored as useless), the wai is just a small part of Thai culture. When I travel abroad, I'm very sensitive to cultural differences, and try to follow required social etiquette wherever I am. I always remember I have come to their home and they are polite enough not to kick me out. In Thailand and other Asian countries, I believe it is just NEVER permitted to wear shoes indoors that have been worn outdoors. Correct me if I'm wrong.
> Or are we becoming a multinational melting pot? I have never felt obliged to tip someone, though I believe it's mandatory in some countries. In some countries they drive on the wrong side of the road ... do we re-educate all those drivers that do?
> On the subject of the wai ... when I'm home, I smile and greet anyone I'm about to have an interaction with (supermarket checkout etc), and in Thailand I would use a wai as that greeting, accompanied with a smile. What did it cost me?
> A Thai input is appreciated. thai-insights, would you feel uncomfortable if I wai-ed you as a casual greeting (sign of respect)?


Arrogance, or is it ignorance? In truth it is nothing more than thinly disguised bigotry. Unfortunately it is not only tolerated, it has been lauded.

The Wai is the Thailand equivalent of the handshake. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## tod-daniels

As I said people; wai to your hearts content! And NO the wai is not the equivelant of the handshake no matter how you parse it out in your brain!

It's obvious from the posts that foreigners wai'ing thaiz is way more about how they feel doing it than how the thaiz getting the wai'z feel about it. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy or more in touch with your thai-ness knock yourself out man!

I've asked many many thaiz I know, and not a one said they'd think it was rude if a foreigner didn't wai. Let me say that again, NOT a single one said that! 

However ALL of them to a person said they thought it was just plain stupid and shows total ignorance to thai culture when foreigners wai'd inappropriate people (subordinates, staff, check out people, door men, etc) or wai'd in the wrong way (hands too high, wai held too long, too deep a bow, etc). 

Sorry guyz I'm trusting the thaiz on this one. If they say it's okay NOT to wai, my question to you is; "why wai are you thai?"

I didn't come to their home, I came to their country, and I most certainly I ain't a guest of theirz, because I've paid my own way for 10+ years here. I apply for and get the right to live here a year at a time. Some may call it permission to live here but I call it a right because as long as I follow their rules I'm fine.

Don't worry I'm just as likely to ignore a thai as I am a foreigner. I pretty much don't pay any attention to anyone which doesn't directly impact my life. It's an ignore and be ignored policy.. 

I put in a previous post about acknowledging foreigners the fact we're both "white people" here surrounded by thaiz just ain't enough of a common bond between us for me to pay the slightest attention to you..


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## stednick

The Wai is the equivalent of the handshake. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## tod-daniels

Thanx for the info there stednick. Just a question, you gleaned the tidbit of alleged wisdom about a wai being the equivalent of a handshake how, via Google, Wikipedia?? 

I doubt the veracity of your statement given the myriad of complexities in the rules governing the motion known as the thai-wai versus the pretty straightforward western handshake; which BTW evolved from the practice of showing the person you were extending your hand toward that you weren't holding a weapon.

Still, it's good to know because I don't EVER shake hands either..

That takes wai'ing thaiz right off the table!


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