# What happens when the bull wins?



## gerrit

One of the few things I hate about my adopted homeland (in general I do love it here) is the "feria", the barbarism of bullfighting which the governments of some provinces claim to be culture. That said, it's a guilty pleasure of mine to watch the images when the bull wins :clap2:

But I was wondering what the consequences are when that happens... If the matador wins, it's quite obvious: he gets his reputation boosted, can keep the horns and tail as a trophy and eats the remainder on the barbeque. But what is the price for the bull if he wins? I asked some people but someone I feel like they've been making fun of me when answering "he gets to make little bulls with a different cow each day"  On the other hand I guess there's not much trophies that you can give to a bull ; I doubt a bull cares a lot about a necklace with a golden medal around his neck ...

So what happens when the bull wins? Does he live like the king of the farm for the rest of life, treated with good food and being the "strong unbeatable bull" who is demanded for reproduction by all cow owners of the area? 
And what punishment does the matador get for losing? Does he get suspended for a while or so?


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## dunmovin

when the bull wins... you get a very small rump steak


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## nigele2

gerrit said:


> So what happens when the bull wins?


Sadly the death certificate has already been signed for him  There is no escape, no glory. In any case by then he is dying from drugs (???? ) and wounds.

But like you if I catch a glimpse of a toro's minor revenge I smile 

My friend Jose lived in Madrid all his life. Even in the 80s he said the bull fighting was not what it was. Of 6 bulls many would be killed early as they had no fight. After years of being seen frequently at the bullring he moved his attentions to basketball and found it much more to his liking. And Jose was a true spanish traditionalist - siesta was never missed 

I guess it will die out eventually. But as much as I dissapprove I hope the history and stories of a more babaric age are maintained. I can imagine the colour, the pageantry, the excitement


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## JBODEN

gerrit said:


> ... So what happens when the bull wins? ... And what punishment does the matador get for losing? Does he get suspended for a while or so?


An Englishman went to a restaurant after watching the local corrida. Whilst waiting for the menu he sees a waiter approaching a table close by, carring a plate with 2 _large _steaming meatballs. When a waiter finally arrives to take his order he points to the other table and asks for a portion of the meatballs. The waiter explains that they were the last portion but, if he wanted to make a reservation for the following evening then the restaurant would keep a portion aside for him. The following evening the Englishman returned to the restaurant and placed his order. After about half an hour the waiter approaches with a plate with 2 _small _steaming meatballs. The Englishman protested that yesterday the adjacent table got 2 large meatballs whilst today he has been served 2 small meatballs, to which the waiter replied ...
''Sometimes the matador wins, sometimes the bulls wins''

Boom-Boom


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## nigele2

Gracias JB - brightened my Sunday morning


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## livinginthesun

*bull fighting*



gerrit said:


> One of the few things I hate about my adopted homeland (in general I do love it here) is the "feria", the barbarism of bullfighting which the governments of some provinces claim to be culture. That said, it's a guilty pleasure of mine to watch the images when the bull wins :clap2:
> 
> But I was wondering what the consequences are when that happens... If the matador wins, it's quite obvious: he gets his reputation boosted, can keep the horns and tail as a trophy and eats the remainder on the barbeque. But what is the price for the bull if he wins? I asked some people but someone I feel like they've been making fun of me when answering "he gets to make little bulls with a different cow each day"  On the other hand I guess there's not much trophies that you can give to a bull ; I doubt a bull cares a lot about a necklace with a golden medal around his neck ...
> 
> So what happens when the bull wins? Does he live like the king of the farm for the rest of life, treated with good food and being the "strong unbeatable bull" who is demanded for reproduction by all cow owners of the area?
> And what punishment does the matador get for losing? Does he get suspended for a while or so?


I don't know what happens to the poor thing if he wins, he might not last very long any way because of his injuries , but lets hope the BULL always wins.:eyebrows:
Better to die fighting than live on your nees.:eyebrows: I hate cruelty to animals of all kinds, they are like people that cant speak, they cant tell you when they are sick they cant tell you when they are sad why don't us humans give them a better life !!!!!!!:flypig:


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## jimenato

This doesn't make me happy but maybe it could go some way towards stopping this cruel idiocy.



> A young Madrid 19 years died early on Saturday following a goring bulls received during the night held in the town of Fuentesaúco Zamora, according to Europe Press sources have confirmed the Health Center of La Guareña.


(translated)


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## dunmovin

jimenato said:


> This doesn't make me happy but maybe *it could go some way towards stopping this cruel idiocy.*
> 
> 
> 
> (translated)


This is Spain......it's more likely to get even more idiots to try the same. Just put it down "one less idiot that can procreate"


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## gerrit

So basically the odds of the bull winning is 1 out of a 100 or so? Guess he'd need to get the matador on his knees before he has the chance to injure the bull severely. I can imagine if one bull is heroic enough to win the fight, a lot of his "kids" would be seen as a sort of super bull ; pretty much like those beauty contests for dogs where the winning dog's puppies are often quite expensive just because their biological father won a contest.


What bothers me most about the whole bull fighting is how EU turns a blind eye to it. Knowing that European law disapproves animal cruelty AND EU law stands above national law, the EU could very easily forbid bull fighting and it'd overwrite Spanish law. In the economical situation Spain is in now, they'd happily keep receiving money from the EU and give up bull fighting rather than stepping out of the EU. But instead of that, the EU actually donates money for it because the Spanish classify the bull fighting as cultural heritage. If local law makers don't stop the cruelty, I think it's the EU's very duty to take action. All over the rest of Europe people puke of the thought alone that people here are so cruel on those bulls, but nobody seems to take action against it.

Luckily it's outlawed here in Catalunya.


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## jimenato

dunmovin said:


> This is Spain......it's more likely to get even more idiots to try the same. Just put it down "*one less idiot that can procreate*"


Improving the quality of the gene pool:amen:


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## nigele2

gerrit said:


> So basically the odds of the bull winning is 1 out of a 100 or so? Guess he'd need to get the matador on his knees before he has the chance to injure the bull severely. I can imagine if one bull is heroic enough to win the fight, a lot of his "kids" would be seen as a sort of super bull ; pretty much like those beauty contests for dogs where the winning dog's puppies are often quite expensive just because their biological father won a contest.
> 
> 
> What bothers me most about the whole bull fighting is how EU turns a blind eye to it. Knowing that European law disapproves animal cruelty AND EU law stands above national law, the EU could very easily forbid bull fighting and it'd overwrite Spanish law. In the economical situation Spain is in now, they'd happily keep receiving money from the EU and give up bull fighting rather than stepping out of the EU. But instead of that, the EU actually donates money for it because the Spanish classify the bull fighting as cultural heritage. If local law makers don't stop the cruelty, I think it's the EU's very duty to take action. All over the rest of Europe people puke of the thought alone that people here are so cruel on those bulls, but nobody seems to take action against it.
> 
> Luckily it's outlawed here in Catalunya.


Gerrit not sure I would want Europe dictating on this because then we would have a European government passing laws without any thought for cultural or regional differences . I would prefer the education route. If you see the colour, the pegeantry, the act, etc. you see an arte/culture thing. If you see the pain, agony and torment of the animal you see it for what it is.

Just as with fox hunting in the UK those supporters of bull fighting play the card that it employs many people and banning it would harm the economy. Of course it is the people paying to get in that sustain it. Here they get some education:

BBC NEWS | Americas | Bull charges bullfight spectators


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## gerrit

I think cultural differences, sadly enough, have become very minimal thanks to the EU's open borders. I lived in 6 EU countries now and found them all quite similar. I also lived in Turkey and that was the only country where I felt i was actually in a place very different from "home" (ironically I felt more at home in Turkey than in any EU country - that as a sidenote because calling Belgium "home" is just a reflex, it never felt as such)

The differences in Europe are small. When I was in Eastern Europe I was negatively surprised in how they caught up with western Europe in such a rapid tempo. I'd more say there's regional accents than real cultural differences. So I doubt the EU's interferances would cause much damage. When cruelty is practised under the lie of "culture" I do think it's justified the EU would come into action. Because I fear if we need to wait until the Spanish government takes action, it could be a very long wait


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## littleredrooster

gerrit said:


> I think cultural differences, sadly enough, have become very minimal thanks to the EU's open borders. I lived in 6 EU countries now and found them all quite similar. I also lived in Turkey and that was the only country where I felt i was actually in a place very different from "home" (ironically I felt more at home in Turkey than in any EU country - that as a sidenote because calling Belgium "home" is just a reflex, it never felt as such)
> 
> The differences in Europe are small. When I was in Eastern Europe I was negatively surprised in how they caught up with western Europe in such a rapid tempo. I'd more say there's regional accents than real cultural differences. So I doubt the EU's interferances would cause much damage. When cruelty is practised under the lie of "culture" I do think it's justified the EU would come into action. Because I fear if we need to wait until the Spanish government takes action, it could be a very long wait


Agree with you regarding Turkey being an entirely different experience to the rest of Europe.
I only had positive vibes during my time there and met up with great hospitality.
However they also had some pretty nasty cruelty issues,especially with regard to the bears.
It's been reported that great strides had been made there with regard to having such barbaric practices eradicated,so lets hope its true.


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## Pesky Wesky

This is what happens when the bull wins. You don't have to read the article, just look at the photo...

Julio Aparicio sufre una brutal cogida en Las Ventas y se encuentra "muy grave"

Doesn't say what happened to the bull.


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## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> Doesn't say what happened to the bull.


The bull as always is already dying due to what will prove to be fatal wounds if he is not put out of his misery beforehand. Sadly the bull never wins, he just suffers anything from extreme stress, fear and pain, or something worse than that.

I wonder if julio will be recommending it to his sons as a career with potential?


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## expatsinspain

True, I doubt there is such a thing as the bull ever winning. I do however take a certain naughty pleasure from reading of cases where the oh so brave (not) matador gets some payback by the bull. Not that it does the bull any good, his days are numbered either way.

Funny how the EU can decide the shape of the bananas we are supposed to eat, but nothing on this animal cruelty. Anyway, aren't they supposed to be banning bullfighting in Catalonia sometime this sumer?


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## gerrit

Here in Catalunya it's already banned. The arena here in Barcelona is still in use for other events but no bullfighting anymore. However, I fear it may take a long while before the entire Spain abolishes, hence why IMO the EU should interfere. I know we should not mix with cultural traditions of other countries, Europe should not be dictatorial. However, there is a difference between let's say respecting St Patricks Day celebrations in Ireland on one hand, or a gross cruelty towards animals on the other hand. It's like saying Europe should tolerate killing people because on a certain day it's a tradition in a country to kill someone on a town square. Maybe a silly example, but my point is: when the boundary between culture and barbarism is crossed, then I do think Europe should interfere.


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## dunmovin

gerrit said:


> Here in Catalunya it's already banned. The arena here in Barcelona is still in use for other events but no bullfighting anymore. However, I fear it may take a long while before the entire Spain abolishes, hence why IMO the EU should interfere. I know we should not mix with cultural traditions of other countries, Europe should not be dictatorial. However, there is a difference between let's say respecting St Patricks Day celebrations in Ireland on one hand, or a gross cruelty towards animals on the other hand. It's like saying Europe should tolerate killing people because on a certain day it's a tradition in a country to kill someone on a town square. Maybe a silly example, but my point is: when the boundary between culture and barbarism is crossed, then I do think Europe should interfere.


but where do you draw the line as to if or when Europe should interfere? There is an old saying "give an inch and they'll take a mile". With some of the stupidity that have became E.U. regulations and guidelines,my opinion is it's better to let the SPANISH people decide when to ban it.


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## Muddy

****** ..I was going to mention about the Banana episode lol. How stupid was that! And don't forget the KG's and lbs's!!
IMHO and I stand to be corrected.
Cruelty to animals of any size colour or location can never be a good thing! And no I'm not a total vegetarian! But I do stick by this, I would probably eat anything I would be prepared to kill myself. How many of us would do that! How many of us have ever let that thought cross our minds when strolling around the supermarket! Not many I'm sure.
It's just what people get use to, and I think that in some ways applies to Bull killing in Spain. I watched it on TV a couple of times but turned off as it turned me off!

Even though this is cruel I can understand how letting the EU ban this and overpower Spanish law is maybe not a good thing for a few reasons.
If Spain is moving away from this practise over time then maybe it should be allowed to do it that way. I don't agree with it being a good thing it continues but I also don't agree with EU or local government messing with peoples way of life too much, not to mention that making a living is very hard right now and it's probably not a good time to enforce a ban for example during times of hardship.

I do think anything that has been going on for such a long time can be seen as cultural, but that shouldn't mean culture should supersede what's right, and making animals suffer unnecessarily can't be right at all.
Maybe such things need to go to a vote, you can't be doing this for everything but if the majority of Spaniards want bull fighting to continue then shouldn't be up to them!
I would guess that most Spaniards would be ok with it coming to an end anyway. Has there ever been a look into that?

One thing I believe in strongly is letting people live their life’s as they wish to. How does this relate! I think it’s all part of feeling happy and living the way we all wish to as long as our way of life doesn't directly affect others in a negative way.

This to me means being at least tolerant of other peoples way of life, it also means I don't want an overbearing government introducing draconian laws that had no mention in their manifesto. For me it means live and let live but also don't do to others that you don't wish done to you.

Sorry if going off subject a little but one thing I think that I feel at least when I've been in Spain is it feels less overbearing. Here in the UK life to me at least can feel like a very long list of rules and I believe that takes the fun out of life and makes you question are you working to live or living to work!


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## nigele2

Muddy said:


> But I do stick by this, I would probably eat anything I would be prepared to kill myself.


Muddy fully agree and like what you have said but not let us get caught in the trap of comparing rearing animals for food and giving an animal torment and a slow death for the sake of entertainment.

I'm against bull fighting, dog fighting, bear baiting, ...... but I love a good sirloin :hungry:


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## gus-lopez

But cattle reared for consumption have a life of less than 18 months , wheras bulls for the bullring are normally 4 years old. Not condoning it, doesn't do anything for me, but merely pointing out that they have a better & lot longer life than those reared for food . On the subject of banning fox hunting , I was against it as @ least it kept some of the population down, where as now they drag an old teddy about & chase that ,whilst the foxes have gone off to eat children.


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## Muddy

Interesting point Gus. I'm now thinking if I had the choice and I was a bit further down the food chain would I opt for 18 months of being reasonably well fed and get zapped with a high voltage zapper or whatever they use these days or have 4 years to go around before I get the what looks like much more painful exit if I was a bull! I guess there is always the be on TV factor 

I'm sort of laughing as I type this do forgive me;
Do we know if cows/bulls are even aware of time passing so would it make any difference!

For food maybe, for ((fun)) 100% no.

Fox hunting;
IMO, it just be part of the reason the poor old fox might have been hunted down in the greenbelt a bit too much in the past is what may have pushed more of them into the cities!
They keep their distance most of the time and I've even seem 3 of them running around the garden with a cat, not trying to eat it, just being playful.
Now has it been proved that a fox did indeed have intentions of making dinner out of them 2 kids! I doubt it. Most likely a small dog and that would cause problems for the family so perhaps the fox becomes an escape goat this time.
Has it been proved above all doubt!

Oh yeah..If they start culling foxes then what! The answer is maybe don't feed them so much or at all, I do sometimes :eyebrows: Maybe less foxes = more rats. Maybe there is a better balance going on than we're even aware of :juggle:


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## geez

gerrit said:


> Luckily it's outlawed here in Catalunya.


Ummm Gerrit, how come I can buy tickets for two taurinos this month at Monumental? Toros Entradas Taquilla Tauroentrada Mundotoro

Given that it was San Fermin yesterday, a good time to bring it up.

I used to get all hett up about this sort of issue and I know it plays well to a Northern European audience. Once I'd been in Spain for a while I realised that rather than the mass slaughter of bulls that I'd been lead to believe, it's much less limited. During the current Pamplona taurino I understand that six bulls a day will be killed, 36 in total. It's not my cup of tea and I still find it distasteful, but a little perspective is a good thing.

The fact is that countries in Northern Europe (eg, Netherlands, Belgium and Germany) are some of the greatest offenders when it comes to factory farming practices which involve the torture for profit of millions of animals. The majority of eggs that populate the famous British fry up are battery farmed. Much of the criticism about bull fighting comes from the same countries where people insist on paying as little as possible for their animal protein. I've therefore changed my tune and have come to the conclusion the arguments against bull fighting are a little undergraduate in comparison.


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## gerrit

Hmmm, odd. I was told it was already outlawed here. A pub owner once told me when a commercial for a broadcasted bull fight came up.

That said: as a vegetarian who borders veganism, I object any sort of animal killing so it's not like I will protest against the cruelty of bull fighting and next eat a hamburger or so. However, even when ignoring my vegetarian lifestyle, there is a difference here that I am hoping those who eat meat are also agreeing with (?): slaughtering an animal for food in private factories in a relatively painless and rapid way, cannot be compared with letting an animal die a slow and painful death in public for the sake of public entertainment. Even those who eat meat should see a very clear difference here. The one is aimed at food production, the other is aimed at turning animal cruelty into a public entertainment. Very big difference here. I won't preach about my vegetarianism because I prefer to let each make the decision for themselves weither to eat or not eat animal products ; if you accept my vegetarianism I'll also respect your non-veggie lifestyle. I will be preaching however against something like bull fighting which clearly has other aims than producing food.


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## geez

Mine might be a morally relative argument, Gerrit, but I was not talking about the killing of animals in factory farms. I was referring to the lives of these animals before they are so humanely done away with. A few hundred vs millions convinces me where I want to place my concern. I'm always having discussions with northerners who love to point to bullfighting as proof that Spainards are barbaric sorts. Millions of sows in pens too small for them to move to make sausages for E2 a kilo is one of my stock answer on the subject (and, yes, Spain ain't blameless there either). At least poor toro has the life of Reilly before he is tortured to death. And then he is used for food. 

Anyway, you are a vego and I'm morning sick so I'm leaving it at that.


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## Pesky Wesky

Btit gored in the San Fermines, Pamplona
Pamplona Bull Run, Spain: British Man, 43, Gored At San Fermin Fiesta, Six Others Injured | Politics | Sky News


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## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> Btit gored in the San Fermines, Pamplona
> Pamplona Bull Run, Spain: British Man, 43, Gored At San Fermin Fiesta, Six Others Injured | Politics | Sky News


Hell mend them..... if you want to stupid enough to try to outrun 300lbs of bad tempered hamburger... the gene pool is cleaner place


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## gerrit

geez said:


> Mine might be a morally relative argument, Gerrit, but I was not talking about the killing of animals in factory farms. I was referring to the lives of these animals before they are so humanely done away with. A few hundred vs millions convinces me where I want to place my concern. I'm always having discussions with northerners who love to point to bullfighting as proof that Spainards are barbaric sorts. Millions of sows in pens too small for them to move to make sausages for E2 a kilo is one of my stock answer on the subject (and, yes, Spain ain't blameless there either). At least poor toro has the life of Reilly before he is tortured to death. And then he is used for food.
> 
> Anyway, you are a vego and I'm morning sick so I'm leaving it at that.


The treatment of the animals before slaughter is one of the reasons for being vegetarian or vegan in many cases. So it's not like people ignore these practises (at least, those who abstain from meat will not turn a blind eye to it, and I'm sure some meat eaters also won't and will only consume bio products)


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## dunmovin

what happens to the bull...... mince, steak and hamburger etc... but a low qaulity meat as the beast has been stressed, dumping loads of toxins into it's blood...a complete waste of good food


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## Guest

dunmovin said:


> what happens to the bull...... mince, steak and hamburger etc... but a low qaulity meat as the beast has been stressed, dumping loads of toxins into it's blood...a complete waste of good food


Doesn't the bull become a hot menu ticket at the local restaurants? Unless I somehow misunderstood the Spanish, that's what I had heard.


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## baldilocks

"What happens when the bull wins?" The "******* en salsa picante" on the restaurant menu are much smaller. - old joke, sorry if it doesn't man anything to those who have never heard it.


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