# Ground Pump and Solar panel installation



## MikeandEmilyD

Hi. 
As these type of systems are constantly being improved does anyone have any recent experience with installing such systems. I would like to have solar panels and ground pumps installed with the aim of being energy self sufficient. Are there companies to seek out and others to avoid?


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## Bevdeforges

There is lots of interest currently in solar panels - usually associated with various tax credit schemes for environmentally friendly home improvements. But, depending on where you wind up in France, solar may or may not be practical (also has to do with the orientation of your house and local regulations and restrictions regarding solar panels). The same may or may not apply to ground pumps - you don't see or hear much about that option here.


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## Peter_E

Hi. I am not sure the solar panels will be able to deliver the spike in power needed to start the pump and therefore you would always need mains or a battery setup in addition to the PV panels. In addition, the cold days when you need your ground pump working are often overcast so again you would need mains (not energy self sufficient) or a battery storage system (expensive). I would also like to be energy self sufficent and installed PV panels, and I monitor the production, but cold cloudy days are an issue.


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## rynd2it

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Hi.
> As these type of systems are constantly being improved does anyone have any recent experience with installing such systems. I would like to have solar panels and ground pumps installed with the aim of being energy self sufficient. Are there companies to seek out and others to avoid?


As an ex-solar consultant and experienced in heating systems I'll share my 10c worth. Firstly in France there are NO government incentives for installing solar despite all the ads you see claiming they can do it for €1 - the only schemes available are financial loans to be repaid via the savings in electricity bills. Pay back is probably close to 25 years as opposed to the 7 years it took to recoup the cost on my house in California.

As Bev said, house roof size and orientation is important - you don't get any incentives if the installation is not "approved" for example it has to be roof mounted and not on a ground rack. Make no sense to me but after extensive research that's what I found out.

It definitely is not worth going for battery back up - the batteries are very expensive and only last about 5 years. I configured just such a system once for a customer in California and the battery back-up system added over $50,000 to the costs of what should have been about a gross $30,000 project. The usual inverters (from panel DC to mains AC) rely on there being a connection to the grid, no connection, no generation. However, you can be self sufficient in cost terms i.e you can end up with a net zero energy bill but it will cost a lot to install. This is mainly because the energy suppliers only buy back surplus production at about 50% of the cost to you on your bill. Again, crazy system but as they say bienvenue au France!

Ground source heat pumps are not very common, air source are more usual and there are incentives for these depending on your income (rfr number on your tax bill) - less than €22,500 then you can qualify for a €1 deal, more than that and you can qualify for the incentives under "my renove" and that can be up to about €9000, still quite an expensive outlay though.

Don't let me put you off investigating, I'm a believer in these systems but right now they are not cost-effective in France. So if you do it you'll be doing it for the planet not your wallet


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## Peter_E

Up to a 3kW array there are fewer rules to abide by, and you only need to inform Enerdis. So I have self installed a 2.7kW PV array (8 panels) on a ground rack for a total of about 2800 euros, including the wooden frame. If you install the panels higher than 1.8m eg on a roof you need to apply for planning permission. I have installed a "tignous router" which diverts all electricity I don't use to my hot water tank, and I do not get paid for any electricity I send back to the grid. If you install an array greater than 3kW, or wish to sell your excess to EDF the bureaucracy increases, as do the costs of compliance so it isn't worthwhile from a financial point of view. Generally my savings are 2 euro a day since I still import about 1.5 euros worth of electricity on average every day. So the investment should pay for itself in 4-5 years.


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## Lffsam

rynd2it said:


> As an ex-solar consultant and experienced in heating systems I'll share my 10c worth. Firstly in France there are NO government incentives for installing solar despite all the ads you see claiming they can do it for €1 - the only schemes available are financial loans to be repaid via the savings in electricity bills. Pay back is probably close to 25 years as opposed to the 7 years it took to recoup the cost on my house in California.
> 
> As Bev said, house roof size and orientation is important - you don't get any incentives if the installation is not "approved" for example it has to be roof mounted and not on a ground rack. Make no sense to me but after extensive research that's what I found out.
> 
> It definitely is not worth going for battery back up - the batteries are very expensive and only last about 5 years. I configured just such a system once for a customer in California and the battery back-up system added over $50,000 to the costs of what should have been about a gross $30,000 project. The usual inverters (from panel DC to mains AC) rely on there being a connection to the grid, no connection, no generation. However, you can be self sufficient in cost terms i.e you can end up with a net zero energy bill but it will cost a lot to install. This is mainly because the energy suppliers only buy back surplus production at about 50% of the cost to you on your bill. Again, crazy system but as they say bienvenue au France!
> 
> Ground source heat pumps are not very common, air source are more usual and there are incentives for these depending on your income (rfr number on your tax bill) - less than €22,500 then you can qualify for a €1 deal, more than that and you can qualify for the incentives under "my renove" and that can be up to about €9000, still quite an expensive outlay though.
> 
> Don't let me put you off investigating, I'm a believer in these systems but right now they are not cost-effective in France. So if you do it you'll be doing it for the planet not your wallet


So am I understanding this correctly. If your income is less than 22.5k, then you qualify for an installation at €1 ?

If so, could you possibly point me to a link to start researching this subject?

We can no longer afford to fill the gas tank for our gas fired central heating, and are relying solely on our wood burner, which heats aprox 50% of the house, using wood we harvest ourselves.

Thanks in advance

Richard


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## rynd2it

Lffsam said:


> So am I understanding this correctly. If your income is less than 22.5k, then you qualify for an installation at €1 ?
> 
> If so, could you possibly point me to a link to start researching this subject?
> 
> We can no longer afford to fill the gas tank for our gas fired central heating, and are relying solely on our wood burner, which heats aprox 50% of the house, using wood we harvest ourselves.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Richard


Hopefully, it was a friend of a friend who benefitted - I need to ask him for the contact. Watch this space


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## MikeandEmilyD

Bevdeforges said:


> There is lots of interest currently in solar panels - usually associated with various tax credit schemes for environmentally friendly home improvements. But, depending on where you wind up in France, solar may or may not be practical (also has to do with the orientation of your house and local regulations and restrictions regarding solar panels). The same may or may not apply to ground pumps - you don't see or hear much about that option here.


Thanks Bev. We intend to be in Charente Maritime around Saintes. So hopefully a fair amount of sunshine hours.


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## MikeandEmilyD

Peter_E said:


> Hi. I am not sure the solar panels will be able to deliver the spike in power needed to start the pump and therefore you would always need mains or a battery setup in addition to the PV panels. In addition, the cold days when you need your ground pump working are often overcast so again you would need mains (not energy self sufficient) or a battery storage system (expensive). I would also like to be energy self sufficent and installed PV panels, and I monitor the production, but cold cloudy days are an issue.


Many thanks Peter


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## MikeandEmilyD

rynd2it said:


> As an ex-solar consultant and experienced in heating systems I'll share my 10c worth. Firstly in France there are NO government incentives for installing solar despite all the ads you see claiming they can do it for €1 - the only schemes available are financial loans to be repaid via the savings in electricity bills. Pay back is probably close to 25 years as opposed to the 7 years it took to recoup the cost on my house in California.
> 
> As Bev said, house roof size and orientation is important - you don't get any incentives if the installation is not "approved" for example it has to be roof mounted and not on a ground rack. Make no sense to me but after extensive research that's what I found out.
> 
> It definitely is not worth going for battery back up - the batteries are very expensive and only last about 5 years. I configured just such a system once for a customer in California and the battery back-up system added over $50,000 to the costs of what should have been about a gross $30,000 project. The usual inverters (from panel DC to mains AC) rely on there being a connection to the grid, no connection, no generation. However, you can be self sufficient in cost terms i.e you can end up with a net zero energy bill but it will cost a lot to install. This is mainly because the energy suppliers only buy back surplus production at about 50% of the cost to you on your bill. Again, crazy system but as they say bienvenue au France!
> 
> Ground source heat pumps are not very common, air source are more usual and there are incentives for these depending on your income (rfr number on your tax bill) - less than €22,500 then you can qualify for a €1 deal, more than that and you can qualify for the incentives under "my renove" and that can be up to about €9000, still quite an expensive outlay though.
> 
> Don't let me put you off investigating, I'm a believer in these systems but right now they are not cost-effective in France. So if you do it you'll be doing it for the planet not your wallet


Thanks David. I was thinking that things had moved on a bit and heard that France was very good with it's incentives but it looks like I am wrong


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## rynd2it

Peter_E said:


> Hi. I am not sure the solar panels will be able to deliver the spike in power needed to start the pump


They are fitted with a capacitor discharge so there is no spike - common to all large electrical appliances for several years now


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## rynd2it

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Thanks David. I was thinking that things had moved on a bit and heard that France was very good with it's incentives but it looks like I am wrong


There are some good incentives - insulation for €1 for example. France isn't into solar because EDF is basically government financed so giving people solar would put EDF finances at risk


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## MikeandEmilyD

Lffsam said:


> So am I understanding this correctly. If your income is less than 22.5k, then you qualify for an installation at €1 ?
> 
> If so, could you possibly point me to a link to start researching this subject?
> 
> We can no longer afford to fill the gas tank for our gas fired central heating, and are relying solely on our wood burner, which heats aprox 50% of the house, using wood we harvest ourselves.


Thanks in advance Many thanks. I look forward to seeing the link too

Richard


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## tardigrade

Lffsam said:


> So am I understanding this correctly. If your income is less than 22.5k, then you qualify for an installation at €1 ?
> 
> If so, could you possibly point me to a link to start researching this subject?
> 
> We can no longer afford to fill the gas tank for our gas fired central heating, and are relying solely on our wood burner, which heats aprox 50% of the house, using wood we harvest ourselves.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Richard











Ma Prime Rénov 2023 : simulation, connexion, copropriété... L'essentiel


MA PRIME RENOV. Pour assurer la rénovation énergétique des logements, le gouvernement veut élargir l'accès au dispositif Ma Prime Rénov. Conditions de revenus, montants des aides, coûts des travaux... Voici ce que vous devez savoir.




www.journaldunet.com


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## Lffsam

tardigrade said:


> Ma Prime Rénov 2023 : simulation, connexion, copropriété... L'essentiel
> 
> 
> MA PRIME RENOV. Pour assurer la rénovation énergétique des logements, le gouvernement veut élargir l'accès au dispositif Ma Prime Rénov. Conditions de revenus, montants des aides, coûts des travaux... Voici ce que vous devez savoir.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.journaldunet.com


Many thanks, I am going to start some research. I have been thinking about it all winter, and will try and get on it in the warmer weather.
Look forward to this thread advancing.
Richard


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## boilerman

Ground Heat Pumps | Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad


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## TOrner

I use Total Energie and just checked their site for PV panels. They have a solar panel planning tool. However, it requires an address to evaluate and a rooftop, either a garage or house. I planned for a 3BR house of 180m2. The garage roof is perfectly oriented to the south and would have taken 8 panels to supply approx 47% of the estimated electrical needs. The electrical needs are minimal though because we use a fioul furnace for heat & hot water. Photo atch'd of their estimate.


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## BackinFrance

It might still be worth checking EDF power costs at this point as I am sure they will be looking for new customers given recent events.

I have used them for years, haven't opted for off peak or limited Kw. I have just let my contract roll ove,. Up until now, or more precisely until late 2022, they have not increased their charges to me for at least 6 years, which is as long as I keep my electricity and gas bills. Same goes for my Engie gas bills, I just rolled over from GDF-Suez and it's predecessors. So I am keeping my fingers crossed for my upcoming contracts with those 2 companies. Hoping to replace some of my old double glazing and my front door from savings in the near future, for which I believe there is no govt assistance, which will give me a very well insulated home.


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## Peter_E

TOrner said:


> I use Total Energie and just checked their site for PV panels. They have a solar panel planning tool. However, it requires an address to evaluate and a rooftop, either a garage or house. I planned for a 3BR house of 180m2. The garage roof is perfectly oriented to the south and would have taken 8 panels to supply approx 47% of the estimated electrical needs. The electrical needs are minimal though because we use a fioul furnace for heat & hot water. Photo atch'd of their estimate.
> View attachment 101064


If you are prepared to do it yourself you can easily save 5000 euros off that quote. Have a look at this website that does DIY kits Mon Kit Solaire | Spécialiste du Kit Panneau Solaire Autoconsommation & Panneau Photovoltaïque. There are many similar sites.
On the garage roof will require planning from the Mairie since it is higher than 1.8m.
You need to possibly consider angling some of the panels in different directions if you are wanting to supply electricity only for your own consumption, otherwise your peak production will be high but over a short duration. I would image you want it spread over a longer duration, with a lower peak. I have 2 sets of 4 panels and they are essenially at 90 degrees to one another and at an angle of approximately 35 degrees from the horizontal. To give you an idea of our generation, here is the plot for Sunday. The green is imported energy and the yellow is generated. The peaks are generally kettle boiling, washing machine, oven for Sunday roast and tumble dryer. The imported peaks at 11am, 12pm and 14pm would be much higher since the appliance would be consuming the sum of the green+yellow values. All excess is automatically divered to the hot water cylinder so none is exported back to EDF.


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## MikeandEmilyD

TOrner said:


> I use Total Energie and just checked their site for PV panels. They have a solar panel planning tool. However, it requires an address to evaluate and a rooftop, either a garage or house. I planned for a 3BR house of 180m2. The garage roof is perfectly oriented to the south and would have taken 8 panels to supply approx 47% of the estimated electrical needs. The electrical needs are minimal though because we use a fioul furnace for heat & hot water. Photo atch'd of their estimate.
> View attachment 101064


Hi. Great info. Many thanks


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## MikeandEmilyD

Peter_E said:


> If you are prepared to do it yourself you can easily save 5000 euros off that quote. Have a look at this website that does DIY kits Mon Kit Solaire | Spécialiste du Kit Panneau Solaire Autoconsommation & Panneau Photovoltaïque. There are many similar sites.
> On the garage roof will require planning from the Mairie since it is higher than 1.8m.
> You need to possibly consider angling some of the panels in different directions if you are wanting to supply electricity only for your own consumption, otherwise your peak production will be high but over a short duration. I would image you want it spread over a longer duration, with a lower peak. I have 2 sets of 4 panels and they are essenially at 90 degrees to one another and at an angle of approximately 35 degrees from the horizontal. To give you an idea of our generation, here is the plot for Sunday. The green is imported energy and the yellow is generated. The peaks are generally kettle boiling, washing machine, oven for Sunday roast and tumble dryer. The imported peaks at 11am, 12pm and 14pm would be much higher since the appliance would be consuming the sum of the green+yellow values. All excess is automatically divered to the hot water cylinder so none is exported back to EDF.
> View attachment 101066


Hi. Thanks for the info and links


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## ddaddy

Peter_E said:


> If you are prepared to do it yourself you can easily save 5000 euros off that quote. Have a look at this website that does DIY kits Mon Kit Solaire | Spécialiste du Kit Panneau Solaire Autoconsommation & Panneau Photovoltaïque. There are many similar sites.


Would you set one of these systems up then get an electrician to make the final connection or are you allowed to do it all yourself?


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## Peter_E

ddaddy said:


> Would you set one of these systems up then get an electrician to make the final connection or are you allowed to do it all yourself?


I did it myself. The kit has everything you need and is all rather straight forward. I chose the basic kit. In the fuse box, you just need to make a connections to the electricity supply, so it is just 2 wires or copper rails. Since I am not selling the electricity and the setup is <3kW there is no requirement for an inspection. The only thing is you have to make a declaration to Enedis, but this website gives advice on how to fill in the form.








Aide formulaire enedis | Après Demain 28







apresdemain28.wixsite.com





Diverting the excess electricity to the hot water is more complex and involved installing a "router" in the fusebox which you can buy from a French chap online. 








complément photovoltaïque | Après Demain 28







apresdemain28.wixsite.com





And then if you have a French electric hot water cylinder, the thermostat is linked to the electronics of the immersion heater, so you need to separate those circuits, which is another physical modification to the PCB of the "chauffe eau". Simple but intimidating.








Modification chauffe-eau | Après Demain 28







apresdemain28.wixsite.com


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## rynd2it

Peter_E said:


> You need to possibly consider angling some of the panels in different directions if you are wanting to supply electricity only for your own consumption, otherwise your peak production will be high but over a short duration. I would image you want it spread over a longer duration, with a lower peak. I have 2 sets of 4 panels and they are essentially at 90 degrees to one another and at an angle of approximately 35 degrees from the horizontal.


Back in the day I used a piece of software which could provide a simulation of any given system in any location. The recommendation from all solar sources I knew of was to orientate due South and at a tilt angle of the same as your latitude. This always gave the maximum production however, just for interest sake, I ran the simulation program for the same size system and moved the orientation through 360 degrees and varied the tilt angle. Varying the tilt had the biggest negative effect (not surprisingly) but what was interesting was the orientation only affected the output by a maximum of 15% - even facing due North! Photovoltaic does not rely on the suns heat so as long as there are sufficient photons around the system will generate. I've actually watched my meter run backwards while it was raining!

I no longer have access to the software and I'm retired so please don't ask


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## ddaddy

Peter_E said:


> I did it myself. The kit has everything you need and is all rather straight forward. I chose the basic kit. In the fuse box, you just need to make a connections to the electricity supply, so it is just 2 wires or copper rails. Since I am not selling the electricity and the setup is <3kW there is no requirement for an inspection. The only thing is you have to make a declaration to Enedis, but this website gives advice on how to fill in the form.


Thanks for the tips.
Here in the UK (House being sold) I have 7kW of solar on the roof and 2x Tesla Powerwalls which gives 27kWh of storage with 10kW peak output.
It all works amazingly well together with my supply on a 2 rate tariff, filling the batteries at night for 5p/kWh during the winter which the house uses through the day.
The only addition I would have liked to have made, would be diverting excess (Yes in the summer even after filling the batteries from solar I have more excess) to heat the water.

If I wanted to install something similar when I move to France later this year, what issues would I face with exceeding this 3kW self declare limit?


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## Peter_E

I think as soon as the installation goes above 3kW or has batteries attached the "Consuel" gets involved. In addition EDF gets involved too, but I am uncertain since I specifically stayed below 3kW to avoid all the bureaucracy. I guess if you had Powerwalls and panels to charge your car which were not connected to the grid at all, they may be no issues.


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## MikeandEmilyD

rynd2it said:


> Back in the day I used a piece of software which could provide a simulation of any given system in any location. The recommendation from all solar sources I knew of was to orientate due South and at a tilt angle of the same as your latitude. This always gave the maximum production however, just for interest sake, I ran the simulation program for the same size system and moved the orientation through 360 degrees and varied the tilt angle. Varying the tilt had the biggest negative effect (not surprisingly) but what was interesting was the orientation only affected the output by a maximum of 15% - even facing due North! Photovoltaic does not rely on the suns heat so as long as there are sufficient photons around the system will generate. I've actually watched my meter run backwards while it was raining!
> 
> I no longer have access to the software and I'm retired so please don't ask


Hi and thanks for your post. Do you have the name of the software?


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## rynd2it

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Hi and thanks for your post. Do you have the name of the software?


 OnGrid Solar Financial Analysis Tool v3.0

Note this was in 2008


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## MikeandEmilyD

rynd2it said:


> OnGrid Solar Financial Analysis Tool v3.0
> 
> Note this was in 2008


thanks


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## boilerman

MikeandEmilyD said:


> thanks


Of course if you had lots of land, a ground source heat pump might be a good idea


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## MikeandEmilyD

boilerman said:


> Of course if you had lots of land, a ground source heat pump might be a good idea


Hi Boilerman. I was actually wanting this if possible, even if it's a vertical shaft. I know it's expensive but I'm thinking it would be a good investment. If I could get a ground source heat pump, PV and solar water heaters plus a battery back up for under 50k I would definitely consider it.


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## ddaddy

I was reading this earlier.
Seems to suggest that even in the UK a ground source system is only really worth it if you are in the North. So being in France (further South) i'd assume there's even less benefit of ground vs air.


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## boilerman

ddaddy said:


> I was reading this earlier.
> Seems to suggest that even in the UK a ground source system is only really worth it if you are in the North. So being in France (further South) i'd assume there's even less benefit of ground vs air.


This is the bit that I have come across, poorly fitted loops/slinkie's, other wise, I'd go for both GSHP and ASHP

*"the soil temperature will stay above 5°C throughout the year, as long as the ground loops, which extract heat from the soil, have been designed correctly."*


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