# Problem with the application for residency for my wife



## Takaktuhuk (Feb 4, 2015)

Dear forum members,

today my wife handed over the application for the Tarjeta de residencia familiar de ciudadano de la union.

They took her application and stamped the ex 19 form even though we missed two things.

1.certificado de convivencia con la informe de la policia
this should not be a problem to get, according to the immigration officer we just have to ask for it at the ayuntamiento and it takes around 10 days.

2. we handed over the application with a copy and a legal translation of our apostilled marriage certificate from Hong Kong which should be accepted in Spain.
I even added a certificate from the german consulate that the marriage certificate is accepted in Germany and does not require further registration in Germany.

What they want is a marriage certificate from Germany which we don't have and can' t get within a reasonable time frame.

What are our options? Do they have to accept our application as it is or do I have to fly to Germany and get a marriage certificate from there?

How much time do we have to get the missing documents?

What about the visa situation of my wife? She is now staying in Spain on a 90 day Schengen Visa which expires on March 13.

Muchas Gracias for all replies, we really hope that we can get more clarity in the Spanish jungle of beaurocracy


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Is there no online service to order a marriage certificate from Germany to be mailed to you?


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## Takaktuhuk (Feb 4, 2015)

our marriage is not registered in Germany.
so we would have to register the marriage there first, which would require to translate all documents into German and translate and legalize my wife's bith certificate which is a lot of hassle and takes a lot of time


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## Donutz2 (Apr 14, 2014)

The Spanish authorities are known for ignoring EU legislation on the matter (Directive 2004/38). They do request the marriage be registrated in your country even though this violates the EU directive on freedom of movement. The European council is aware of this but you may wish to share your experience with them aswell as SOLVIT (EU Ombudsman). Solvit might be able to convince the authorities you are dealing with that they are wrong. Solvit has no formal powers though so if you face stubborn officials who refuse to admit they are wrong you are out of luck.

The Spanish ministry knows their national legislation is wrong, from an experienced immigration lawyer I know that the Spanish ministry does overturn a Spanish embassies refusal to accept formal evidence of marriage (original marital papers, preferably legalized and with an official translation into a language that the embassy can understand). How this works out for applying for residency with the authorities in question I do not know.


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## disillusion20 (May 29, 2013)

Hello Takaktuhuk

If you don't mind me asking, where is your wife from? My husband (Swede) and I had the same issue, we got married in Singapore but when we asked the Spanish embassy in SG, they required us to get the marriage certified/registered in Sweden (which, like in Germany, isn't necessary).

What we did though, was to update my husband's marital status in Sweden in his 'personbevis' (had to send a certified copy of our marriage cert to Sweden) and use that document which showed that he was married to me to show that the marriage was registered in Sweden. I'm not sure if Germany has such a document but maybe that is something you can find out?

Since you have submitted the documents, a letter should come in the mail, acknowledging your application. They will/might send a separate letter to let you know what documents are missing and give you a timeline. You will need to go to the Foreigners Office and submit a form (which will also be stamped) to apply for a time extension to submit the missing documents (it should be a brownish paper form for this and you have to write the reasons in Spanish). I'm not too sure how long each 'extension' is for though.

As for the visa situation, my understanding is that as long as you have submitted the form and it's been stamped, you can use that to show that you have applied for the Tarjeta. However it might be that she cannot travel out of Spain till she gets the card - well she can, but reentering might be an issue. For me, I didn't travel out of Spain at all during the wait of six months.

FYI - we applied in Malaga. Hope this helps!


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

We moved to Spain from HK (we were resident in HK before, me UK, wife Indonesian) and the Spanish Embassy initially requested proof that our marriage was registered in the UK, but that was quickly accepted as being unnecessary once argued.

Our later application process in Spain (La Linea Cadiz) also never mentioned registration of the marriage in the UK was a requirement.

Technically you cannot get a marriage certificate from Germany unless you were married there. All Germany can do is what the UK can do, and that make a generic statement that it will accept a legal marriage certificate from Indonesia (or HK/Singapore or wherever), which is a pretty standard requirement across all countries.

Likewise Spain is required to accept a legal marriage from these countries, so all that should be required is the demonstrate to Spain that the marriage is a legal one (which is where all the legalisations of the document come in). But any statement from Germany that, like Spain, it accepts legal marriage documents, is and should be totally irrelevant to Spain. Spain won't accept "Germany's acceptance of its legality " anyway, they will insist on on their own process of requiring the forms that demonstrate its legality - so why ask for anything from Germany ?

Bottom line is that you don't need anything from Germany, but its getting the immigration official to accept this. We "lawyered up " in our process to deal with things like this, which was the best thing we could have done looking back at the curveballs we had to deal with (and the tight timeframe resulting from the three-month rule where all the legalisations expire after that time - just getting the legalisations alone ate up more than half that time).

Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Takaktuhuk (Feb 4, 2015)

Hello guys,

thank you very much for your replies.
I will give a quick update.

We decided to hire a lawyer, who turned out to be pretty useless.
The extranjeria said that a document from the consulate would be sufficient which validates that the marriage is accepted in Germany and doesn't require registration.
Well then I showed them that I actually handed them over exactly this kind of document issued by the consulate of Germany in Hong Kong.
Suddenly it was again not enough and they insist that I will bring them a marriage certificate from Germany.

Our lawyer recomended me to speak to the German consulate here in Las Palmas but all they are saying is that I can register the marriage with the German civil registry of marriages if I wish to but this would take a long time since I would have to translate all documents into German and furthermore they might ask for a proof of authenticity of my wifes birth certificate from the Philippines.
All in all this process could easily take more than one year.

All of this because the spanish immigration bureau doesn't want to accept a perfectly legal document.

At least as I understand they can' t kick my wife out of Spain if I understood it right.


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## Donutz2 (Apr 14, 2014)

Thanks for the update, any luck with contacting Solvit? Or other Spanish authorities (such as the MoFA, who knows full well that the Spanish legislation is in violation of the EU regulations and who may be abel to tell you what to do)?


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

It remains that unless you were married in Germany, Germany can't produce a marriage certificate, so that's out of the question. Spain should also not require legalisation from Germany. 

Any registration in Germany should also be irrelevant as that's just depositing a document in Germany without any German view on its authenticity (the UK stopped accepting deposits of marriage certs in 2014, so any registration doc from the UK not possible any more).

The Spanish legalisation process requires a bunch of stamps from government offices where you were married, then translation to Spanish and a stamp from the Spanish embassy in the country you were married. Put one way, Spain is required to accept this document (assuming the correct legalisation procedure followed) no matter what the Germans say, but the German legalisation process should be identical, except translation into German and a stamp from the German embassy where you were married. So it actually may not be too much extra work - hardest bit for us was the various government stamps and the translation and embassy stamp was fairly straightforward.

I suspect I would try with another lawyer to convince them that nothing is required from Germany, else/also go the Solvit route as it is categorically not a requirement that you need to get any documentation from Germany. The requirement is sufficient proof to the Spanish that your marriage is a legal one, and thats nothing to do with Germany.

Good luck again and let us know how it goes


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## Takaktuhuk (Feb 4, 2015)

I just contacted SOLVIT, maybe they can help to resolve the situation.
The marriage certificate was issued in Hong Kong and has an Apostille and since Spain is part of the Apostille treaty they should accept the document without further legalization.
Of course we have a sworn translation into Spanish, but they are still like stubborn donkeys who just insist on a German marriage certificate.
It is ridiculous how they treat the people eg making comments like "go to Germany and apply for residency there".

The thing is we can get a marriage certificate from Germany if we register the marriage in Germany.
It' s problematic though because its a long and costly process especially if the German marriage registry asks for a legalization of my wife's birth certificate.


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

You're right, a HK certificate should be easier as HK is part of the Hague convention, so the Apostille should be acceptable in place of the legalisation process I described for Indonesia (which is not part of the Hague convention).

I think the UK possibly made it easier for Brits by making it clear they don't issue marriage certificates or accept registrations any more, so the Spanish know not to ask (more than once) as they have been told enough times they can't have any of that any more.

Mildly surprised Germany can issue a marriage certificate though as the UK was so firm that it can't do that. Might be that the person you are dealing with once managed to get a German certificate on top of a certificate from some other place, and so has their heart set on it. 

From experience and reading what others go through, it seems so much the luck of the draw who you get dealing with your application, so only options seem to get help through the lawyer or solvit route as you are doing.

The person we were dealing with was pretty harsh on a number of issues but the lawyer handled it quite smoothly with what sounded like a lot of pleading and begging until the immigration official finally softened (we had a crying baby there to help too which I think encouraged the official to reach a speedier conclusion than might otherwise have been the case).

Good luck again and we look forward to the "hallelujah - all sorted " update.


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## jonmlb748 (Oct 30, 2011)

Solvit it were a great help for us with similar circumstances ,our problems were quickly resolved when they become involved.


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## Confuseddotcom (Feb 11, 2015)

On a similar note our friends recently got their residencia from Almeria. On their first visit they were told because his private pension was far more than hers( they are pre retirees) that they needed to get a Hague apostille and legal translation of their marriage certificat( not cheap to get) but they also decided to get a legal translation of the pension details which were not asked for. 
A different official on the following visit did NOT ask for the marriage certificate, but did ask for the pension information which they had! Just crazy and no consistency in the same department, never mind the province or the country. In Almeria (and I don't know how they get these figures) you need income of €5108 for 1 person. €8684 for 2. €12260 for 3. €15836 for 4 to get your residencia.


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