# The Spanish take to the street at last!!



## Pesky Wesky

The discontented Spanish are taking to the streets and demonstrating asking for 

_... la vivienda, el trabajo, la cultura, la salud, la educación, la participación política, el libre desarrollo personal y derecho al consumo de los bienes necesarios para una vida sana y feliz".

_...housing, work, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development and the right to consume basic commodities deemed necessary for a healthy, happy life

_...gritos de "esta crisis no la pagamos", "no más corrupción, pasamos a la acción", "manos arriba, esto es un atraco", "PSOE-PP la misma mierda es" 
_ 
There were shouts of "we're not paying for this crisis" "No more corruption. Let's get into action" "Hands up. This is a hold up" "PSOE - PP. It's all the same ****" 

I saw a sign that said _"NO hay pan para tanto chorizo_" There's not enough bread for all this chorizo. Chorizo has a double meaning - the chorizo that you eat, and a petty thief...
Miles de ciudadanos "sin casa, sin curro y sin miedo" exigen "un futuro digno" · ELPAÍS.com
Too little action too late, I fear, but this could really take off.

I didn't know anything about it as the protest was called on Twitter and Facebook...


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## andmac

Good article - about time some people stood up!

I like the phrase about the "chorizos"!


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## mark_d

It's really sad for the young people who are desperate for work and whose only option seems to be leave the country, despite their high level of education. The government allow 10's of thousands of unemployed to study their lives away in the hope of getting civil servant job (oposiciones) which are probably already given to someone's nephew or niece.


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## Guest

Our three trips to Madrid we saw organized protests every day. To organized if you ask me but it sure appears to keep a bunch of police employed...Maybe if they kept open more than seven hours a day then not only would productivity go up but there would be more jobs. Today for example when things were supposed to 're-open' they were closed. I'm sorry but I don't get the famous 3-4 hour mid-day break especially in cities full of tourists with money to spend, yes Germany can afford it...but nobody else can...


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## Dennis_V

folklore said:


> Our three trips to Madrid we saw organized protests every day. To organized if you ask me but it sure appears to keep a bunch of police employed...Maybe if they kept open more than seven hours a day then not only would productivity go up but there would be more jobs. Today for example when things were supposed to 're-open' they were closed. I'm sorry but I don't get the famous 3-4 hour mid-day break especially in cities full of tourists with money to spend, yes Germany can afford it...but nobody else can...


There ain't any 3-4 hour mid-day breaks in Germany.
And they sure couldn't afford it.


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## Pesky Wesky

folklore said:


> Our three trips to Madrid we saw organized protests every day. To organized if you ask me but it sure appears to keep a bunch of police employed...Maybe if they kept open more than seven hours a day then not only would productivity go up but there would be more jobs. Today for example when things were supposed to 're-open' they were closed. I'm sorry but I don't get the famous 3-4 hour mid-day break especially in cities full of tourists with money to spend, yes Germany can afford it...but nobody else can...


Madrid is the capital city. There are demonstrations every 5 minutes. The fire officers, the ecologists, the students, the unions - they have all been out on the streets recently. It's what happens in capital cities in europe.

The famous 3 - 4 hour break still take place in some shops, but most are, if not all, are open more than 7 hours. Being open more hours doesn't mean that they make more money. In fact they make less 'cos they have to pay out more in wages.


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## Pesky Wesky

andmac said:


> Good article - about time some people stood up!
> 
> I like the phrase about the "chorizos"!


I LOVED the chorizo phrase!!


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## mark_d

3-4 hours would be exceptional and German businesses close two or three hours earlier. That being said, somewhere like Barcelona I would expect businesses affected by tourism to stay open.


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## Sonrisa

I thougth that the 3 or 4 hours miday break was a thing of the past in Spain. Las few years I have been there most business skipped the break all together, and lets not forget that most shops close much later at night than in other european cities, including german cities. 
I also disagree about more jobs being created by streeching business hours. Instead, those already employed would be required to work longer and in no way it would affect productivity. There are several studies that argue that productivity isn't directly proportional to the number of hours worked. 

About the No hay pan para tanto chorizo  Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## Guest

Sonrisa said:


> I thougth that the 3 or 4 hours miday break was a thing of the past in Spain. Las few years I have been there most business skipped the break all together, and lets not forget that most shops close much later at night than in other european cities, including german cities.
> I also disagree about more jobs being created by streeching business hours. Instead, those already employed would be required to work longer and in no way it would affect productivity. There are several studies that argue that productivity isn't directly proportional to the number of hours worked.
> 
> About the No hay pan para tanto chorizo  Couldn't have said it better myself!


They are not a thing in the past in the cities I've been to. Major shopping centers stay open but I'd question more importantly the office professionals. Do they not return home for a few hours duing the work day?

Nor do I agree that the number of hours worked is not in some way related to productivity. I'm sure there are studies that take both sides of the question. Coming from (the last time I checked) the most productive country in the world...and having seen the living style of 'some' in Spain...


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## mark_d

Good grief.

The Spanish culture is to break for a long lunch (the main meal and siesta time here) but they work well into the evening. I know that's different from your culture but that doesn't make it bad; in fact if you look at life expectancy rates between the US and Spain perhaps they're doing something right. Plenty of studies have shown an afternoon nap improves concentration and productivity. My understanding is also that the Spanish are largely considered to be conscientious workers of a high standard of education, undeserved of their laid back stereotype.


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## mrypg9

folklore said:


> . Coming from (the last time I checked) the most productive country in the world...and having seen the living style of 'some' in Spain...


Does the US have higher productivity than China or the other BRICs? From all I've read, the US economy is contracting, both the deficit and debt are at levels that would make even Greek eyes water and unemployment is stubbornly high.
Keeping shops and businesses open longer does not per se result in higher profitability. That will only come about if consumer confidence is strong and there is availability of income, disposable or otherwise, to spend.
One of the current problems in the UK -shared even by a thriving economy such as Germany - is the unwillingness of consumers to spend. Germany's lack of domestic demand is at the moment compensated for by its high volume of value-added exports.
Spain, with its 20% plus unemployment and demand likely to be even more depressed because of swingeing cuts in public spending isn't going to become prosperous on the back of extended opening hours. 
Any business owner knows that in 99% of enterprises, your biggest outgoing is your labour bill. Longer hours =higher overheads.
Relying on tourism won't get Spain out of its current hole. The basic problem is low growth and lack of competitiveness.


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## mrypg9

folklore said:


> They are not a thing in the past in the cities I've been to. Major shopping centers stay open but I'd question more importantly the office professionals. Do they not return home for a few hours duing the work day?
> 
> Nor do I agree that the number of hours worked is not in some way related to productivity. I'm sure there are studies that take both sides of the question. Coming from (the last time I checked) the most productive country in the world...and having seen the living style of 'some' in Spain...



Reading your post got me interested in finding just which countries are the most 'productive'. There seems to be varying definitions of what constitutes 'productivity',or what should be included in that term.
In one list I found Norway (!!) was ranked Number One, followed by Singapore....then came the US.
There's no doubt that 'continental' economies like the US can withstand most pressures as it is rich in resources of all kinds and to an extent be largely self-reliant. It also has a huge domestic consumer base.
Spain has no such advantages. It can only compete on price for most commodities. 
Devaluation would be of most help at this time but eurozone rules have put that out of the question and in spite of gloomy forecasts when the euro crisis began, no sign as yet of a break-up in the eurozone.


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## Pesky Wesky

I don't know but I think you need to taste the pudding before you form an opinion about it.
I work in 4 different companies. These are the timetables
1. 9:00 - 17:00 with _*30 mins*_ for lunch. Go home at 16:00 on Fridays
2. 9:00 18:00 with 1 hour for lunch. All managers stay until at least 19:00 every day and the majority of them stay until 20:00. They also travel regularly to Holland, the UK, Germany and around Spain. They work weekends, have exhibitions at weekends and also once every 6 months have training sessions at weekends. My students, who are at the top of the company *often* stay until 22:00 - 23:00 
3. Much more relaxed 8:30 - 18:00 with an hour for lunch.
4. Wild! The secretary has a timetable of 8:30 - 18:00, but no one else does. It may be start work at 6:30 or 9:00. The day may finish at 20:00 or 22:00. There may be three weeks in China or a trip to Barcelona!! But lunch is an hour.

They are all offices and none of them more than an hour for lunch...


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## nigele2

So Pesky at last it looks as though it is starting. In Puerta del sol it looks like there is some determination. Yes for sure this demo will quieten down but it is a necessary step which hopefully will be followed by a stampede. Hopefully in the autumn when the joke tourist contracts have ended and the unemployment is reassessed the youth of Spain will bring the walls falling down.

For sure at the moment it is not clear what to replace it with and I know that "Democracia Real Ya" do not have all the answers but even Noddy and Big Ears could do a better job than the Spanish elite  

And when the movement is shown to be there in numbers perhaps a spaniard with a clean past will step up to the plate. Or of course the country splits and several come to the fore. Or the likes of those who wrote "Acciona" form an interim ruling council while a new constitution is drawn up. Just hope it happens before it is too late for my stepdaughter and niece.

Can't wait to get to Madrid and join in lane: 

I missed the celebration of Franco's death, I'm not going to miss this one  

"Democracia Real Ya :clap2:"

I'll sign off now cause realise this is not for here. But if anyone is in Madrid and wants to join in


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## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> So Pesky at last it looks as though it is starting. In Puerta del sol it looks like there is some determination. Yes for sure this demo will quieten down but it is a necessary step which hopefully will be followed by a stampede. Hopefully in the autumn when the joke tourist contracts have ended and the unemployment is reassessed the youth of Spain will bring the walls falling down.
> 
> For sure at the moment it is not clear what to replace it with and I know that "Democracia Real Ya" do not have all the answers but even Noddy and Big Ears could do a better job than the Spanish elite
> 
> And when the movement is shown to be there in numbers perhaps a spaniard with a clean past will step up to the plate. Or of course the country splits and several come to the fore. Or the likes of those who wrote "Acciona" form an interim ruling council while a new constitution is drawn up. Just hope it happens before it is too late for my stepdaughter and niece.
> 
> Can't wait to get to Madrid and join in lane:
> 
> I missed the celebration of Franco's death, I'm not going to miss this one
> 
> "Democracia Real Ya :clap2:"
> 
> I'll sign off now cause realise this is not for here. But if anyone is in Madrid and wants to join in


Yep!

There's stuff going on in Sol now, and in other places too, but, down to reality, I've got to get food on the table 'cos OH has got a bad back (again!) so no demonstrating for me tonight


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## Pesky Wesky

Puerta Del Sol today

La Puerta del Sol vuelve a concentrar a miles de personas que piden "un cambio" - 20minutos.es - El medio social










Article in El País in English

Mainstream parties quickly taking up positions around protest movement · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## Pesky Wesky

Welllll,
everybody is talking about this. Here are the front pages of 5 top Spanish papers
http://kiosko.net/es/
The headlines go from

The 15M movement gains momentum

to

Outlaws (literally outside the law) 

The politicians are really keen to get in on this, but the demonstrators are having none of it. Tomás Gomez (PSOE) offered to go down and talk to them, but they refused the offer. Cayo Lara (IU) said on the radio this morning that his daughter was there protesting and he had gone down incognito yesterday. Santiago Carrillo (90 year old communist leader) has appealed to everyone to use their vote on Sunday, (and added that the vote should go to the left!) And as far as I can make out Zapatero has blessed it (?) The PP has said that Rubalcabal (Vice President PSOE)is behind it all

The protesters are known as "Los Idignados", the 15 M movement, and the young ones (because they are not all young) are known as the Lost Generation

Pesonally I think it's great that the Spanish are at last making themselves heard, but whether it 'll come to anything or not is another matter. I know what they don't want (politics and democracy as they stand today), I know a little of what they do want (more equality, minimum levels of housing and living standards available to all, and the opportunity to work) but I don't know how they want to achieve it and to be honest I don't think any of them knows either, and that's where it all comes unstuck.


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## Sonrisa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Welllll,
> I know a little of what they do want (more equality, minimum levels of housing and living standards available to all, and the opportunity to work) but I don't know how they want to achieve it and to be honest I don't think any of them knows either, and that's where it all comes unstuck.


Yes, I agree. Have been following since it started and I'm not sure if any thing will come out of this. I very much doubt it will bring real change to the indignados. If anything I hope we will set an example to other countries of how protesters should be treated.


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## Pesky Wesky

Article from from today's El País in English
Demonstrators defy election officials by converging on Sol · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## Caz.I

Sonrisa said:


> Yes, I agree. Have been following since it started and I'm not sure if any thing will come out of this. I very much doubt it will bring real change to the indignados. If anything I hope we will set an example to other countries of how protesters should be treated.


Well yes, but given the revolution in the Arabic world recently, it will be ironic if nothing changes here despite having the (relative) freedom to protest peacefully. It seems as though there may be an awful lot of the older generation who will opt for tactical voting for the PP as their way of protesting against the government. Though I would love to be wrong.


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## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> Well yes, but given the revolution in the Arabic world recently, it will be ironic if nothing changes here despite having the (relative) freedom to protest peacefully. It seems as though there may be an awful lot of the older generation who will opt for tactical voting for the PP as their way of protesting against the government. Though I would love to be wrong.


Owwwch! I hope not Caz! Actually I think the PP will come out quite favourably, but not because of tactical voting. Many will vote PP because the PSOE approach obviously didn't work and it's "the other" big party. The other thing is that whilst on one hand the PP professes to stretch out its hand to immigrants (there are some candidates of other countries of origen for example), the PP is very "patriotic"; those from home come first, solid values of the family, anti gay marriages etc etc. When there's high unemployment there's always a backlash on the immigrant population and a return to basic values, so the PP will get a lot of votes that way.

There have been a few comparisons of the Spanish protests and the Arab world protests. I don't know too much about either of them, but it seems to me they are different regimes, different backgrounds - just different. You can't compare Human Rights issues in the two areas surely? People here are talking about changing the democratic system, but at least everyone has the right to vote!

More placards 










Young people without future
No house
No work
No pension
No fear

I can't work. How can I pay contributions?

They save the banks and destroy education

We still haven't got a house

What is happening now is very important in Spain's political history and I urge those of you who live in Spain to keep up with the news. This movement itself may not come to anything, but the seeds are being sown and the ramifications of this protest will be felt in the 2012 elections


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## Pesky Wesky

This is the cartoon that appeared in El País yesterday, with the young guy protesting and the older guy (I think his name is Nigelo ) is saying "At last!"









I'll stop posting now


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## Alcalaina

The Spanish population in the UK is joining in:
Real Democracy London


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## thrax

Most shops stay open here in the tourist areas but otherwise all of them close for 3 - 4 hours during the day apart from major supermarkets


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## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> This is the cartoon that appeared in El País yesterday, with the young guy protesting and the older guy (I think his name is Nigelo ) is saying "At last!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll stop posting now



This made my morning 
Gosh, I hope those who are protesting vote, and meaningfully (not "en blanco.") Look at what JUST happened in Canada. It'd be fascinating to see something similar happen here.


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## nigele2

Pesky nothing like me 

In London there is a call to demo at the Spanish Embassy at 7pm every evening until Sunday. 

I'm gutted I can't be at Sol especially from midnight tonight but at least pilar and I will be at the Embassy Saturday. Not much I know but hopefully every little helps. 

Must go, got to get the spelling right on the placards


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## Sonrisa

Caz.I said:


> Well yes, but given the revolution in the Arabic world recently, it will be ironic if nothing changes here despite having the (relative) freedom to protest peacefully. It seems as though there may be an awful lot of the older generation who will opt for tactical voting for the PP as their way of protesting against the government. Though I would love to be wrong.[/QUOTE
> 
> I fear that the protests will not bring any real change,. so yes, I hope that they are simply allowed to protest pacefully for as long as they want. I think all political parties and the current goverment are very much aware of the problems that the spanish face at the moment. Regardless of how many people are sleeping in Sol, creating five million open vacancies will take more than painting pancartas and shouting catchy slogans, I am afroid.
> 
> I think we need the PP to bring real economic reforms and legislation that hopefully will allow the market the necessary room and flexibility to create more jobs and attract investment and confidence. It's no tactical vote. It's a need.
> 
> And even so, there'll be no inmediate change to them. It's going to take years.


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## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> I think we need the PP to bring real economic reforms and legislation that hopefully will allow the market the necessary room and flexibility to create more jobs and attract investment and confidence. It's no tactical vote. It's a need.
> 
> And even so, there'll be no inmediate change to them. It's going to take years.



Could you summarise the economic policies the PP would implement if elected as it seems they will be?
Most importantly, what are their plans for getting people to work and stimulating growth?


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Could you summarise the economic policies the PP would implement if elected as it seems they will be?
> Most importantly, what are their plans for getting people to work and stimulating growth?


Mary, if you can still edit your post you should try to change it. Caz wasn't the author of your quote - it was sonrisa


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Mary, if you can still edit your post you should try to change it. Caz wasn't the author of your quote - it was sonrisa


I've sorted them!!


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## littleredrooster

thrax said:


> Most shops stay open here in the tourist areas but otherwise all of them close for 3 - 4 hours during the day apart from major supermarkets


Regarding hours, I don't think things have changed so much in small towns and villages out in the sticks.
You can walk through some of them mid-afternoon and they're as quiet as a grave.
In any event what outdoor workers want to carry on grafting right throughout the hottest part of the day in mid-summer ?
It may be ok for big city types in air-con offices, but its definitely not for everyone.


If as many ppl are joining the "revolution" as appears to be the case, maybe they could get their act together with a new political party and have a major influence at the next general election, though obviously funding would be a big problem unless they can operate on a shoestring budget.


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## Sonrisa

mrypg9 said:


> Could you summarise the economic policies the PP would implement if elected as it seems they will be?
> Most importantly, what are their plans for getting people to work and stimulating growth?


I would love to, but they are far too many, too vague and they are in Spanish which means that I would have to translate them They are in the PP webpage for anyone to see, aint no secret . 

As a matter of fact I don't think that they are coming up with one big plan that summarises the ecomic reform needed, instead there are dozens of small little changes in legislation that hopefully will mean a slow but steady progress onto the creation of jobs, which undoubtely will be slow...
For example....
One of their plans for getting people into work is a change in legislation concerning autonomos, entrepeneours and what is known in spanish as PYMES (small and medium enterprises), in terms of tax reductions or by changing the fact that taxes will not have to be paid until they have received full payment from their clients; they also call for a law that promotes the employment of youth, women and those older than 45 by reimbursing 100% of Seguridad Social payments during the first year of employment.

PP also claims that they plan to make the spanish economy more competitive both within itself and internationally, but they dont say exactly how they are looking to achieve this 
They are also adressing the problem with the burocracy spanish system, although again, they don't say how they are going to improve it buy hey the fact that they are admiting that there is a problem is a first step.


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## Sonrisa

littleredrooster said:


> Regarding hours, I don't think things have changed so much in small towns and villages out in the sticks.
> You can walk through some of them mid-afternoon and they're as quiet as a grave.
> In any event what outdoor workers want to carry on grafting right throughout the hottest part of the day in mid-summer ?
> It may be ok for big city types in air-con offices, but its definitely not for everyon.


Ok so it's been over a decade since I last worked in Madrid, but trust me a bocadillo at my desk for lunch (and often dinner too) is all I could manage back then. Working in London was bliss in comparation, I was actually Forced to take my lunch break and never had stay in the office past 6pm. And my paycheck was twice as much.


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## Pesky Wesky

Sonrisa said:


> Ok so it's been over a decade since I last worked in Madrid, but trust me a bocadillo at my desk for lunch (and often dinner too) is all I could manage back then. Working in London was bliss in comparation, I was actually Forced to take my lunch break and never had stay in the office past 6pm. And my paycheck was twice as much.


Yes, but it's not over a decade since I've worked there and I can tell you it's the same.

I'm sure there are parts of Spain that adhere to the "old" timetable and there are differences in the summer. Many offices here have working hours from July 15th to Sept 15th I think it is, and don't forget the fiestas. And shops are different to offices, but it is a mistake, I can assure you, to think that the Spanish work less, have a and then have a siesta to get over it.


Meanwhile the thread is actually about Spanish people protesting in the street in 50 cities throughout the country.

:focus:

The electoral board has deemed these protests to be illegal and they plan to shut them down at midnight tonight. Saturday is supposed to be a "day of reflection" before the elections on Sunday. During that day no campaigning can take place and the electoral board thinks that the protesters wil sway people's votes even though the "indignados" as they are called, are not backing any political party. Some areas have said if there is no bother they won't be clearing the streets of protesters.


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## nigele2

littleredrooster said:


> If as many ppl are joining the "revolution" as appears to be the case, maybe they could get their act together with a new political party and have a major influence at the next general election, though obviously funding would be a big problem unless they can operate on a shoestring budget.


I understand the thinking but for "Democracia Real ya" it is important to accept that this is not their aim. It is the system and society that is broken. The fact that PSOE and the PP have proven they have no wish and/or ability to change this and that they defend a corrupt electoral system designed to keep them in power means the system must be changed by the people. The manifesto of democraciarealya.es is very clear Who knows in the longer term 

It is obvious that the majority of supporters of democraciarealya.es are left but they are not PSOE. They have specifically rejected addresses from the left, right and centre.

I hope all goes well tonight and the spanish elite do not do something very stupid that they will regret. Having said that Puerta del Sol is well protected tonight. The danger will be at 5am when the numbers are down. But of course they can reform anywhere any time. Gracias God for Twitter, Facebook and the net


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## nigele2

My family in Madrid are complaining that the Spanish TV are suppressing information and limiting coverage.

There are warnings the spanish press are being pressured and thus beware what you read tomorrow (that may be paranoia but we're talking Spain ). 

The net feed from Sol I have has over 20000 concurrent connections and it is one of many. If you haven't seen Puerta del Sol tonight imagine the Champions League final, then imagine both teams have won, then double it 

Todo sobre las manifestaciones por una 'Democracia Real Ya' | España | elmundo.es Gracias El Mundo 

The only sad thing is that Puerta del Sol is not big enough 

Yes I know it is only a battle and the war will be long and hard but for now the enemy s***s itself and the people celebrate


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## casa99

Watching the b.b.c. news today it appears the protestors in Madrid have not left the square and so far the police have not intervened. ( also on sky news.)


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## jb44

Protests in Madrid,getting just like Athens,the slow unravelling of the Euro is underway,must be a good thing eventually,whenever that happens.


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## thrax

jb44 said:


> Protests in Madrid,getting just like Athens,the slow unravelling of the Euro is underway,must be a good thing eventually,whenever that happens.


Whether or not that would be a good thing, I have no idea, but something tells me it is very unlikely to happen....


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## Pesky Wesky

Went down this evening.
What an experience!
You can't imagine how organised these people have become in a few days. They have food, a library, a nursery, a sick room...
They have discussion groups about employment, housing, economy, the environment, agriculture, developing countries, commerce, business etc. They take turns speaking and anyone can debate. In the meetings I went to everyone was perfectly serious, respectful and articulate. There was no wierdo, druggie, waster, drunk. Just normal interested people of all ages - more people under 30 of course, but all ages and types of people were involved
After today I feel much more optimistic and feel that something somewhere will begin to change. The ideas and means to achieve goals are still very green, but the seed seems to have definitely been sown.
Go and see for yourselves. There are concentrations all over Spain. In fact, all over the world.


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## Malagueño

'_Democracy_' such as *allegedly* exists in countries such as the USA, UK and Spain are utter shams.

One definition of democracy: "_A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives_".

Power is vested in the public? Hogwash!

People rule directly OR through their chosen representatives?

Well there is certainly no direct rule for the people..........do the people rule through their representatives?

No way! These so-called representatives of the people (or public servants as they laughingly refer to themselves) do only what they want - or their party wants......which is all ENTIRELY decided by big business.

The wishes of the people are entirely ignored.

These actors in expensive suits from the President down who mockingly pretend to be our servants are nothing but corporate representatives.....puppets of big business, reading and acting out scripts in a staged drama designed to keep us all under the illusion that we have some sort of say in what happens.

The politicians represent the interests of big business......not the people.

Big business interests 100% dictate what happens in our lives - with their ruthless policies implemented in a system so widely corrupt that it is hard to see the extent of it.

Can you, as an individual, realistically run for office? No way! The system _'they'_ have created makes it way too expensive.

Can _'they'_ remove anybody they don't like from office? Yes they can! By hook or by crook _'they_' can do anything '_they'_ like.

Who _'they'_ want in office will be in office.

Who _'they' _don't want in office will not be in office.

If _'they' _decide an individual is no longer playing their game....ie not going along with the long-term plan - or simply jeopardising it - they will be removed.

The remarkable things happening in the Middle East are not about regime change.....said Cameron/Obama etc. Yeah, right!

_'They' _have been deciding who will be President, Prime Minister etc etc of countries near and far for hundreds of years now.

Usually under the cover of fighting for Democracy. What a laugh!!

The whole system needs to be dismantled entirely - not patched up or adapted.

Let the people rule!

Put those ruthless, murderous tyrants - waving the flag of Democracy - and their representatives in prison where they belong.

Look at B-LIAR. Lied and lied about Iraq......helped do the job for his masters - now earns a cool nine million a year in his various consultancies. Good boy.....here's the bone we promised you.

He and Bluff.....sorry, Bush......both openly admitted that they were _'wrong'_ (ie lied) about Weapons of Mass Destruction - upon which their mass-murder-and-mutilation invasion was based - and then said _"But it doesn't matter because we would have done it _(ie invaded) _anyway"._

And yes....this is _'on topic'_.

My point is that a little bit of tweaking or reform of a top-to-bottom, globally corrupt system is not the answer.

Yes, there seems to be a degree of awakening.....which inspires hope......but those tyrants that hold the entire world under their control are extremely cunning and will soothe our discomfort with empty words and soon rock us back off to sleep again.

It is those big-business interests that purposely hold us all in SLAVERY (because of debt) that need to be completely stopped in their tracks.


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## Sonrisa




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## Malagueño

Great video.....short and to the point........but inspiring!

I was going to say that I'm very surprised they haven't already sent in the _'agent provocateurs'_ to discredit all this and have _'normal'_ people calling for these type of gatherings to be entirely banned.

For anybody that doesn't know, agent provovateurs are agents (on the payroll of the corrupt system) that are sent in to start trouble at these gatherings........attacking the Police, looting, smashing windows, wrecking cars......all designed to give the payrolled, corrupt-system enforcement agents an excuse to crackdown and prevent demonstrations which threaten to wake people up.

Then the braying *SHEEP*le shake their heads and reluctantly consent to the crackdown saying _"This can't be allowed to go on_"......unquestioningly accepting the lies presented to them through the entirely controlled, corrupt-system, information channels - otherwise known as _'the media'_.

I was just thinking the other day that "_television programmes_" are called programmes because that is exactly what they do; they literally "_programme_" the thinking of the *SHEEP*le.

Anyway, I wanted to be sure that I was spelling 'agent provocatueurs' correctly before making this post and so Googled it.

As a result, I came across something that says it all.

I am going to extensively quote from it because it says sooooo much that is crucially relevant to what is happening right now.

For clarity, I will close this post and place all I wanted to quote in a fresh post.

Quite challenging for a Sunday morning!!


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## Malagueño

This was not written about these Spain gatherings......but it is entirely relevant. The writer is speaking from an American angle......but things are entirely controlled globally now. What applies in the States either applies now here and everywhere else.....or very soon will.

That's why those of us who have been in Spain for years have seen Spain becoming more and more like the UK. Control of the public through the introduction of corrupt laws and 'spy' technology.

Think of all the changes: crash helmets; seat belts; traffic-speed radar; pay-parking controls; closed circuit '_security_' cameras; smoking bans; even more stringent smoking bans; number-plate recognition.

And these are all done in the name of public health, safety and security.....so the public buys it every time!

Anyway, on with the quoted article:

_"Already waiting in the wings are the agent provocateurs and the useful idiots primed to start the riots and civil unrest that the idiots believe to be challenging the existing order.

But the existing order was created by the same network of Illuminati families that are seeking to create the 'new order', the New World Order, which is planned to emerge from the turmoil and chaos they are now engineering.

To achieve this, as always, they need our cooperation and let no-one be in any doubt that those who choose to riot and loot in response to what is happening, and encourage others to riot and loot, are walking straight into the trap that has been laid for them.......

................complete the journey to global tyranny and provide the violence and chaos that is designed to open the way to a world government, world army, world central bank, world electronic currency and a microchipped population connected to the global positioning satellite system, or GPS, among many other technologies of surveillance and control.

The riots and looting they want to see, the chaos, will eventually be met with the installation of a Police State with curfews, jail without trial, the military on the streets, and the activation of the concentration camps for 'dissidents' that we have long warned about.


Look at what that War College document said:

'Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against hostile groups inside the United States.'

Might?

It's a certainty because that's the plan and all the laws are in place to allow them to do it. They have been passed by governments around the world as 'anti-terror' legislation, but they use the terms 'terror' and 'terrorist' in such a non-specific way that all these laws can be applied to the entire population of the country that the 'laws' were supposed to protect according to their advocates.

It was all a gigantic con, as some of us tired of pointing out. It had nothing to do with terrorists who are alleged to plant bombs and so on. All these laws have been put into place with the specific goal of controlling the mass of the people through a Police State when they triggered an economic collapse, together with new wars..............

.....The only way to stop all this is *not* to react as they want us to, with violence and hostility to both the State and each other........

..........I would much rather die 'early' doing what I knew to be right than to eek out a few more illusory years as a slave to a tyranny.

But there is no need even for that to bring an end to this nonsense. There are billions of people being enslaved and a comparative handful doing the enslaving..... 

.....We need to come together in mutual support, love, kindness and empathy. We need to put aside the manufactured fault-lines that divide us - religion, politics, race, culture and income bracket. That is not to say people have to reject their beliefs, just don't let them be weapons of division....

.........They are not seeking to enslave Muslims, Jews, black people, or white middle class Americans and so on. They are seeking to do it to all of us and they are picking off different groups one by one, just like the Nazis did in Germany. Remember these famous words because they are so applicable now:

*First they came for the Jews and I was not a Jew so I did nothing.
Then they came for the communists and I was not a communist so I did nothing.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I was not a trade unionist so I did nothing.
Then they came for me and there was no-one left to speak out for me.*

Let us unite behind that which affects everyone - the loss of our most basic freedoms.

And if this is being planned now, what kind of world are our children and grandchildren going to live in? Can you live with that thought while doing nothing or rioting as the authorities want? I can't.

We need to start getting organised in communities and groups to support each other and stop cooperating with the system - not to fight it. The system can only exist with our cooperation and acquiesce.

We are holding it together.

They have their men and women of violence, called the military and 'Swat' teams, to deal with violent resistance.

But their worst nightmare is our non-cooperation - the refusal to pay taxes; refusal to leave homes when banks foreclose on them; refusal to 'comply' with our own enslavement in any form. The system couldn't cope if this was done on a mass scale.

And that's the point: to do this we need to do it en-masse and those not immediately affected need to support those who are......

.....This approach does not refuse to comply in a spirit of hostility, rage or violence, but with love, joy and laughter - and an unbreakable determination not to cooperate with their own enslavement.

We need to start getting together local currency schemes that can operate outside the system and, yes, people should also have mass protests if they choose, so long as they are peaceful. But they need to be part of the campaign of non-violent, non-cooperation, not the focus of it......

*Mass non-cooperation with the system is far more effective.*

The protests need to be targeted at non-cooperation:

refusing to accept laws that ban assembly by massive numbers turning up; surrounding the homes of neighbours when the bank bailiffs come to put them on the street; and so filling the locations of government and finance with masses of people that the system cannot function. 

.....I would say this also to those in uniform:

You may think you have power, but you are just pawns in the game like anyone else. You don't have the power, your uniform does, because that is an extension of the State. Those inside are just there to animate the uniform and do the bidding of those it represents. When you are useful to the cabal they'll praise you and when you are surplus to their requirements as part of the bigger agenda they'll show you the door.

You have children and grandchildren, too, who will have to live in the world you are policing into existence by 'following orders' and believing the manipulative nonsense fed to you by governments and cabal 'training' fronts like the UK-based Common Purpose.

Wake up from the trance and stop building a Police State for your own children and grandchildren - and everyone else......


......We are now fast heading for the eye of the storm that has been planned for so long to enslave the global population in a centralised tyranny. But we don't have to accept it or acquiesce to it, meekly looking on as the walls of control close in by the day.

But that is what is happening and it has to stop. For everyone's sake, it has to stop.

We need to come together in mutual support at this time as those with sick minds and closed hearts are poised to throw everything at us to complete their agenda for total control. 

Whether their insanity prevails is not in their hands, but in ours. It is we who have the power if only we would choose to use it.

We are One Consciousness deluded into thinking we are 'little me'. When we realise that we are all One - and act upon that with courage, love, kindness, peace and empathy for all who need support - the walls of oppression must fall.

But sitting on your arse hoping it will all go away is no longer an option.

It never was._


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## jb44

This is all too much for me,think I'll put my head in a bucket of water...Oh now I'm over 65 (almost) is it still possible to do cigarette runs down to Gibralter

lane:


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## Guest

I have to admit, what I have found in Spain and their standing up to the goverment refreshing. I'd love to see the same thing in the US but we have become comfortably numb. We left the US for Colombia after the bank bailouts were announced...what distrubed us was the beating on of the auto industry exec's who got a tiny fraction of the bailout money compared to the banks who sat there all smug...The US and the rest of the world could learn much from the US president Andrew Jackson who closed the federal reserve bank...but the powers that be obviously won in the long term...

Hopefully if the Spanish people can make some affective change then the rest of the world, espeically the US will learn something and follow suit.


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## Guest

My real disappointment lies in the media...nowhere in the arab world has there been as many people taking to the streets yet all the coverage is dedicated to them...while there were only small articles concerning the protests in Spain...I guess Spain doesn't have much in the way of oil..


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## Malagueño

Hi folklore,

If you investigate the '_mainstream_' media and how it is 99% under the control of those that are working systematically and tirelessly to establish the terrifying New World Order (NWO) tyranny, you will never be disappointed in them ever again!

They are as entirely predictable as night following day!

When something is constantly big in the news, it is an almost certain sign that it is a very important part of the NWO agenda - entirely manipulated by them to further their plan.

The reason the Arab-world demonstrations have figured so widely in the news is because those demonstrations have been purposely initiated by _'agent provocateurs'_.....the aim being to install suitable (ie. NWO compliant) leaders - that is to say, manipulated, tactical regime change.

It works like this: the _'people'_ (or more accurately, the agent provocateurs) start to demonstrate (usually crying out for democracy). The world press bangs it out relentlessly. Real citizens join in and it grows.

Then, you will see much publicity about the cruel government shooting protestors dead or beating them mercilessly. Then you will hear all the stories of what the cruel, non-democratic governemt has done in the past. Then you will see that the 'protestors' start calling for arms to defend themselves.....or calling for outside help. This goes on for a while until global public opinion is that these poor people should be helped. Then someone like Obama will _'demand' _that the cruel, non-democratic government either complies with '_democracy_' or goes. 

Well, there are several steps along the way.......but the outcome is the same. The necessary changes are made which will further facilitate the cause of establishing the NWO tyrannical global government.

These regime changes are carried out in places considered _'non-integrating'_.....ie incompatible with the establishment of the NWO system of complete control of the population of the entire world.

Everything has to coordinated under the same global system......so they need branch and regional executives that will take instructions from _'head office'_ or central command and steer the country/region into an integrated NWO state.

Sorry if this upsets anybody.....but it is the truth of the matter. Not too difficult to research either.

Media control and collusion?

_"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected the promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world-government. The supranational sovereignty if an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries"_
David Rockefeller in an address to a Trilateral Commission meeting in June of 1991.

So maybe you can see why the Arab-world demonstrations were/are featured so heavily in world news. They are pre-planned to help establish the NWO tyranny.

And if you can understand that, you can also understand why the much larger demonstrations in Spain are not featured. They are not NWO orchestrated - they do not contribute to the establishment of the NWO tyrannical world government.....in fact if anything, these demonstrations in Spain might only inconvenience their agenda.

Remember folks......if it's big, big, big news......there's a good chance you're being conditioned and programmed into acceptance of their plans.

_“We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order.”_
David Rockefeller.

What? Collapse (or even just a perceived collapse) of the global economy? Some _'terrorist'_ outrage _"believed to be in retaliation for the killing of Osama Bin Laden"_? Who knows?

Keep your eye on the propaganda machine!


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## Sonrisa

Malagueño said:


> Great video.....short and to the point........but inspiring!!


Actually the speech belongs to a widely published Apple publicity campaign, but I feel it suits the spanish revolution just fine 

About the AP's, my understanding is that there has been numerous attempts to bring trouble, maybe by engouraging binge drinking ("botellones") and other violent provocations all of which have proved unsuccesful so far.


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## Malagueño

I hope our people are really wised up to _"their"_ tactics.

They are much, much more sophisticated, advanced and ruthless than most can even imagine.

_“Naturally the common people don't want war…but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship…all you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” _Herman Goering ( One of Hitler's top men, during the Nuremberg Trials)


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## vixmafia

Sonrisa said:


> I thougth that the 3 or 4 hours miday break was a thing of the past in Spain. Las few years I have been there most business skipped the break all together, and lets not forget that most shops close much later at night than in other european cities, including german cities.
> I also disagree about more jobs being created by streeching business hours. Instead, those already employed would be required to work longer and in no way it would affect productivity. There are several studies that argue that productivity isn't directly proportional to the number of hours worked.
> 
> About the No hay pan para tanto chorizo  Couldn't have said it better myself!


Hey,
Hello okay can you tell me that is it possible that young students can do job n work because i heard that in spian there is no jobs n work for students as a part time or full time please guide me and yes i want to come spain for studies ...........just tell me is it right option to come spain or studies n work is because i'm not spanish citizen ....
thanks reply me as soon as possible ?


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## jojo

vixmafia said:


> hey hello okay canyou tell me that is it possible that young students can do job n work because i heard that in spian there is no jobs n work for students as a part time or full time please guide me and yes i want to come spain for studies ...........just tell me is it right option to come spain or studies n work is because i'm not spanish citizen ....
> thanks reply me as soon as possible ?


This is what a lot of the unrest in Spain is about. There is little work for young people. So coming here to find any, especially if you dont speak or write Spanish is pointless. If you're not an EU citizen then its even harder as you would need to find a company to sponsor you - since they have so many of their own young people to choose from, its unlikely that this would happen

Jo xxx


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## vixmafia

jojo said:


> This is what a lot of the unrest in Spain is about. There is little work for young people. So coming here to find any, especially if you dont speak or write Spanish is pointless. If you're not an EU citizen then its even harder as you would need to find a company to sponsor you - since they have so many of their own young people to choose from, its unlikely that this would happen
> 
> Jo xxx


yeah thanks but i heard that a asian people are working there already 
yeah may be you are right i dont know about this


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## xabiaxica

vixmafia said:


> yeah thanks but i heard that a asian people are working there already
> yeah may be you are right


yes there are many nationalities working here - but with mass unemployment - over 20% overall & 40+% of 16-24 year olds, the spanish, those who speak spanish & EU citizens will get first crack at any jobs there are


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## vixmafia

*hello*



xabiachica said:


> yes there are many nationalities working here - but with mass unemployment - over 20% overall & 40+% of 16-24 year olds, the spanish, those who speak spanish & EU citizens will get first crack at any jobs there are


yeah i get your point thanks for your help 
/SNIP/


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## Guest

I'm tempted to just head back up to my goat farm in the andes...there we have everything we need...I installed a 16 foot cellular antenna for the internet...then when all the world breaks down I will have (as planned) a safe haven for my family...we have 100 chickens, three goats (two are pregnant), water and something the NWO just doesnt' want, but our peace of mind....the 'poor but happy' famers around us trade us for eggs and goats milk for organic vegetables...


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## nigele2

Well London was not Sol but it was sunny. At least we ahowed solidarity. Here a few pickies from Saturday evening 


SpanishRevolution 052 by nigele3

Just like in Sol we had free sun cream, first aid, rubbish recycling, .......


SpanishRevolution 048 by nigele3


SpanishRevolution 044 by nigele3


SpanishRevolution 043 by nigele3

Wasn't hard to find; signs everywhere 


SpanishRevolution 038 by nigele3


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## Pesky Wesky

Malagueño - thanks for your posts. Yes there are _agents provocateurs _in all of these protests marches etc. (Just as there are in some theatres by the way to start the applause going). In the G8 protests for example they have really made their mark, and it seems that the protests held every time there is a summit are a bit of a joke now, largely due to their influence.
How do you manage to make such long posts by the way. You must go over the word limit...

Sonrisa - liked the video. Aren't the words originally from _the sunscreen song? _
An aside... Did you know the Tio Pepe building in Sol has been yaken over by Apple? They are going to open a super store there. In Sol, one of the protesters has a sign saying_ I'm not demonstrating, I'm in the queue for the Apple store!!_

Nigel - Glad you got to London and did your bit. Looks like there was a good atmosphere there as well. Thanks for the photos.

This is part of what the people in Sol have decided. They have decided to stay on the Puerta del Sol until Sunday 29th in part so that their ideas can be studied and exported to the different areas of Madrid.

La Asamblea General de Acampada Sol ha consensuado en su reunión de esta mañana continuar acampando en la Puerta del Sol hasta, como mínimo, el domingo 29 de mayo. Ninguno de los miles de participantes en la asamblea se ha opuesto a la idea.
De entre las diversas razones para continuar la acampada que han expresado los asistentes a la asamblea destaca la de exportar el modelo de trabajo a los barrios de Madrid. Se pretende que los vecinos y vecinas de la ciudad experimenten el sistema de participación directa que se vive en Sol.

I'd be interested to hear from people who participated in events in Bilbao, Valencia, Zaragoza, Santiago or any other of the many places in Spain where people got off their butts to try to make their voices heard.


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## Brangus

folklore said:


> I'd love to see the same thing in the US


Folklore, it is happening in the U.S. Look here:
Up to 100,000 protest Wisconsin law curbing unions | Reuters

This was not a "blink and you miss it" news event. The protest took place over 3 weeks, in miserable winter conditions nonetheless. Perhaps because there was no petroleum and no violence involved, the media weren't especially interested.


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## Guest

Brangus said:


> Folklore, it is happening in the U.S. Look here:
> Up to 100,000 protest Wisconsin law curbing unions | Reuters
> 
> This was not a "blink and you miss it" news event. The protest took place over 3 weeks, in miserable winter conditions nonetheless. Perhaps because there was no petroleum and no violence involved, the media weren't especially interested.


thanks brangus for posting this...I have to admit it was probably played in the US and during that time I'd only seen it on say cnn/bbc here in Spain. Didn't see it...


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## Pesky Wesky

Seems like the first stage of the plan is unfolding and working groups are being set up in different areas outside of the main cities. Anydody seen any reference to this around them?


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## mrypg9

jb44 said:


> This is all too much for me,think I'll put my head in a bucket of water...Oh now I'm over 65 (almost) is it still possible to do cigarette runs down to Gibralter
> 
> lane:


Yes, as long as you stay within the permitted limit.
There's something sleazy about cigarette smugglers imo .....and the Spanish authorities are cracking down on them:clap2::clap2:


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## mrypg9

Malagueño said:


> I hope our people are really wised up to _"their"_ tactics.
> 
> They are much, much more sophisticated, advanced and ruthless than most can even imagine.
> 
> _“Naturally the common people don't want war…but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship…all you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.” _Herman Goering ( One of Hitler's top men, during the Nuremberg Trials)



So...you've defined the problem; neo-con economic policies promoted by a handful of screwball U.S. academics/economists (The Chicago School)first foisted onto developing countries in South America and now spreading to European states.
The so-called Washington Consensus (free markets plus liberal democracy) has divided and impoverished the world, caused pointless wars, ruined economies..
But let's be practical: what can we do about it?
Revolutionary talk doesn't change things....not in 2011.
World-wide concerted action by Governments to re-regulate financial markets, more Keynesianism to pump-prime stalled economies.....we know what's needed.
But how to get from inspired talk to occupation of public spaces to changing policies to changing the world order?
Answers on a postcard, please.


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## mrypg9

jb44 said:


> Protests in Madrid,getting just like Athens,the slow unravelling of the Euro is underway,must be a good thing eventually,whenever that happens.


What evidence do you have of that?
The 'unravelling of the euro' (whatever that means) has been predicted since its inception ten years ago..


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## Malagueño

*EN-MASSE non-cooperation with their corrupt, enforced system.*

Their system of global slavery can only function if the masses cooperate (see earlier posts).


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## mrypg9

Malagueño;527427 said:


> *EN-MASSE non-cooperation with their corrupt, enforced system.*
> 
> Their system of global slavery can only function if the masses cooperate (see earlier posts).



That isn't a plan for removing the current flawed system, though, it's merely a stirring political mini-speech. I've heard and chanted a lot like that in my lifetime with sadly, scant to show for it. The sixties, the seventies, the eighties........plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

Who and where are these 'masses'? There is no longer an industrialised proletariat with nothing to lose but their chains - globalisation has seen to that. Even workers in NICs have more to lose than shackles.
How do you communicate a systematic programme to these 'masses'? 'Masses' seems a rather anachronistic and faintly patronising phrase, imo. It objectifies people as other than our more enlightened selves. What systematic programme do you propose? You can't just make a system as strong as the globalised money market disappear overnight without any resistance merely by demos and stirring speeches.....would that it were so. Political measures and programmes requiring much cool thinking and planning and which are acceptable to the majority of people need to be formulated and presented.
How do you persuade people to adopt a policy of 'non-cooperation'' and what does non-co-operation mean, precisely? General strikes? Not very effective these days. Setting banks alight? Good for morale perhaps (unless it's the bank my money is in!) but not likely to topple the system. Today's workers have a lot more to lose than their chains. They will continue to co-operate with the current system until a better, believable model is put forward.
Today's conflict isn't between socialism, which has been discredited wherever practised and has been consigned to the dustbin of history), but between conflicting models of capitalism. The Anglo-Saxon model of free markets versus various other versions spawned by globalisation....the Russian anarcho-capitalist model, the Chinese state capitalist model, the European social market model (my preference but probably doomed by market pressures on governments).
Free market capitalism a la Friedman and Hayek may just possibly be the most productive economic model but it fails to take into account the social dislocation it entails. It cannot in any case compete with the more ruthless Chinese version of the free market and will soon be overtaken by it.
I agree with you that the current situation is diabolical and should not be allowed to continue. I hope I live to see the end of it.
Pointing out the problem is easy, though. Finding workable solutions acceptable to what you term 'the masses' (which includes you, me and other readers of these posts) is not so simple.
All this heat should be capable of generating some light. From someone, somewhere.


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## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> I would love to, but they are far too many, too vague and they are in Spanish which means that I would have to translate them They are in the PP webpage for anyone to see, aint no secret .
> 
> As a matter of fact I don't think that they are coming up with one big plan that summarises the ecomic reform needed, instead there are dozens of small little changes in legislation that hopefully will mean a slow but steady progress onto the creation of jobs, which undoubtely will be slow...
> For example....
> One of their plans for getting people into work is a change in legislation concerning autonomos, entrepeneours and what is known in spanish as PYMES (small and medium enterprises), in terms of tax reductions or by changing the fact that taxes will not have to be paid until they have received full payment from their clients; they also call for a law that promotes the employment of youth, women and those older than 45 by reimbursing 100% of Seguridad Social payments during the first year of employment.
> 
> PP also claims that they plan to make the spanish economy more competitive both within itself and internationally, but they dont say exactly how they are looking to achieve this
> They are also adressing the problem with the burocracy spanish system, although again, they don't say how they are going to improve it buy hey the fact that they are admiting that there is a problem is a first step.


Rajoy, Zapatero...it doesn't matter who....Whoever is in government will be squeezed between the needs of the people and the demands of the bond markets.

PSOE were decisively trounced in our municipality. PP got 17 out of 25 consejales...
It will be interesting to see what they do with such a majority.


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## Malagueño

Mrypg9,

A couple of points on some of the things you have said in your last three posts:

You said “So...you've defined the problem; neo-con economic policies promoted by a handful of screwball U.S. academics/economists….”

No, a handful of screwball U.S academics/economists is definitely not the problem. The problem is a handful of big-business families that are running every single aspect of this entire world…..and running it to a precise plan to obtain a precise goal – namely the utter enslavement and control of the entire global population.

As suggested, read the earlier posts 

You continued “……….first foisted onto developing countries in South America and now spreading to European states”.

You may see whatever you see…….but look above and beyond it. Almost nothing happens in this world that is not part of the New World Order (NWO) centuries-old plan of ultimate tyranny! Most scientists, economists……”ists” of many kinds are (predominately) unwitting servants of the NWO procurement plan.

Yes, the (people of the) world are divided and impoverished; yes, the NWO barons have DELIBERATELY caused pointless wars and DELIBERATELY ruined economies.

You said “…That isn't a plan for removing the current flawed system, though, it's merely a stirring political mini-speech……”. I didn’t say I had an immediate solution. I suggest people wake up from their slumber……stop running according to programming/conditioning and actually think. Look what’s going on around you. Become aware of the tricks and illusions which entrap you……that is the greatest step forward anybody can take. Once you’re aware of the problem…….and then you realise the scale of the problem…….there is at least some hope of escaping it.

And once again, I’ll state that the problem is not that things just aint right, or that things always just seem to go wrong……it is that there is a small group of people controlling everything and working toward their goal of global enslavement and control.

You said “…….'Masses' seems a rather anachronistic and faintly patronising phrase, imo. It objectifies people as other than our more enlightened selves…..”

Enlightened?? You really think most people could be described as “enlightened”? Sadly, most people believe everything they are taught in their lifelong programming/conditioning/indoctrinisation. Enlightenment is obtaining higher consciousness – or awareness………most are entirely ignorant of their self-imposed prison of the mind.

You asked “…..what does non-co-operation mean….” No, I am not talking about general strikes or burning banks down. Any action must be peaceful, non-violent……more passive, in fact (read earlier posts). Non-cooperation means not perpetuating the current system of dictatorship, control, slavery and debt. We have to pay them to be allowed to live on the planet. Don’t pay them! What gives anybody the right to charge us to live on the planet. Don’t pay taxes of any kind – direct or indirect. Don’t go along with perpetuating the system in any way. They have no power except the power we allow/give them by cooperating.

Have you studied economics? You seem to be almost entirely focused on economic systems etc as ‘the problem’. Look again……the ‘problem’ is as I have said…….they deliberately cause the problems…….for their own ends.

You said “……Rajoy, Zapatero...it doesn't matter who....Whoever is in government will be squeezed between the needs of the people and the demands of the bond markets……..”

In effect, whoever is in Government is placed in government by ‘them’. They place a selection of the next chief executives of World Enterprises Inc on front of the voters and the voters decide which of the chief executives gets to be called ‘President’ or ‘Prime Minister’.

That’s one of the ways the great illusion of democracy is foisted upon us. In the end, it matters not a jot who the people ‘decide’ should get the grand title. Because all those actors on the political stage are ENTIRELY controlled by the NWO murderous, thieving, fraudster mobsters.

To me, it is entirely ludicrous to think that these actors care anything for ‘the needs of the people’. It just doesn’t enter into the equation. They represent the needs and desires of their masters…..and their masters only!

Obama, Cameron, Rajoy, Zapatero, Sarkosky, BLIAR, Bush....it really doesn't matter who.


----------



## mrypg9

Malagueño;527532 said:


> Mrypg9,
> 
> A couple of points on some of the things you have said in your last three posts:
> 
> You said “So...you've defined the problem; neo-con economic policies promoted by a handful of screwball U.S. academics/economists….”
> 
> No, a handful of screwball U.S academics/economists is definitely not the problem. The problem is a handful of big-business families that are running every single aspect of this entire world…..and running it to a precise plan to obtain a precise goal – namely the utter enslavement and control of the entire global population.
> 
> As suggested, read the earlier posts 
> 
> You continued “……….first foisted onto developing countries in South America and now spreading to European states”.
> 
> You may see whatever you see…….but look above and beyond it. Almost nothing happens in this world that is not part of the New World Order (NWO) centuries-old plan of ultimate tyranny! Most scientists, economists……”ists” of many kinds are (predominately) unwitting servants of the NWO procurement plan.
> 
> Yes, the (people of the) world are divided and impoverished; yes, the NWO barons have DELIBERATELY caused pointless wars and DELIBERATELY ruined economies.
> 
> You said “…That isn't a plan for removing the current flawed system, though, it's merely a stirring political mini-speech……”. I didn’t say I had an immediate solution. I suggest people wake up from their slumber……stop running according to programming/conditioning and actually think. Look what’s going on around you. Become aware of the tricks and illusions which entrap you……that is the greatest step forward anybody can take. Once you’re aware of the problem…….and then you realise the scale of the problem…….there is at least some hope of escaping it.
> 
> And once again, I’ll state that the problem is not that things just aint right, or that things always just seem to go wrong……it is that there is a small group of people controlling everything and working toward their goal of global enslavement and control.
> 
> You said “…….'Masses' seems a rather anachronistic and faintly patronising phrase, imo. It objectifies people as other than our more enlightened selves…..”
> 
> Enlightened?? You really think most people could be described as “enlightened”? Sadly, most people believe everything they are taught in their lifelong programming/conditioning/indoctrinisation. Enlightenment is obtaining higher consciousness – or awareness………most are entirely ignorant of their self-imposed prison of the mind.
> 
> You asked “…..what does non-co-operation mean….” No, I am not talking about general strikes or burning banks down. Any action must be peaceful, non-violent……more passive, in fact (read earlier posts). Non-cooperation means not perpetuating the current system of dictatorship, control, slavery and debt. We have to pay them to be allowed to live on the planet. Don’t pay them! What gives anybody the right to charge us to live on the planet. Don’t pay taxes of any kind – direct or indirect. Don’t go along with perpetuating the system in any way. They have no power except the power we allow/give them by cooperating.
> 
> Have you studied economics? You seem to be almost entirely focused on economic systems etc as ‘the problem’. Look again……the ‘problem’ is as I have said…….
> You said “……Rajoy, Zapatero...it doesn't matter who....Whoever is in government will be squeezed between the needs of the people and the demands of the bond markets……..”
> 
> In effect, whoever is in Government is placed in government by ‘them’. They place a selection of the next chief executives of World Enterprises Inc on front of the voters and the voters decide which of the chief executives gets to be called ‘President’ or ‘Prime Minister’.
> 
> That’s one of the ways the great illusion of democracy is foisted upon us. In the end, it matters not a jot who the people ‘decide’ should get the grand title. Because all those actors on the political stage are ENTIRELY controlled by the NWO murderous, thieving, fraudster mobsters.
> 
> To me, it is entirely ludicrous to think that these actors care anything for ‘the needs of the people’. It just doesn’t enter into the equation. They represent the needs and desires of their masters…..and their masters only!
> 
> Obama, Cameron, Rajoy, Zapatero, Sarkosky, BLIAR, Bush....it really doesn't matter who.


OK, so you've had your very interesting rant...now give us an even more interesting and plausible solution.
Otherwise it's all talk-talk. And we all know talk is cheap.
Now...be specific.You write: *The problem is a handful of big-business families that are running every single aspect of this entire world….. *Who are these people you say run things? Name names. The Bilderburg Group? A secret group of financiers? The Elders of Zion? Where do they meet? How do they exert their influence? Since you know who they are, you must know how they operate.
You write this [*B]'they deliberately cause the problems…….for their own ends'*.
How? What are their ends?
You speak of 'not perpetuating the system, not paying taxes'... 
Are you really suggesting that people should not pay their debts or their mortgages? That they should refuse to pay their taxes?
Apart from putting a load of people on the streets or in jail, what would that achieve? How would that bring the system down? Without tax revenue, how would education, health, all infrastructure be financed?

But it's this you wrote that disturbs me:

*Enlightened?? You really think most people could be described as “enlightened”? Sadly, most people believe everything they are taught in their lifelong programming/conditioning/indoctrinisation. Enlightenment is obtaining higher consciousness – or awareness………most are entirely ignorant of their self-imposed prison of the mind.*
Anyone with such open contempt for people will never make a connection with us,, the 'ordinary' voters and workers, family people. 
I presume you see yourself as an exception to what you have written....you are not conditioned/indoctrinated/programmed, unlike the rest of us ignorant sods.
Tell me...how did you manage to escape the veil of ignorance that you say has descended upon the rest of us?

Yes, I've studied economics and other things too...politics, history and I've been one of those politicians you say have been foisted on the people by these 'masters' (I never managed to find out who was pulling my strings).

Look, we all like a bit of a rant at the injustices of the world but most of us want realistic alternatives, not a load of hyperbole about 'Masters of the Universe' and the stupid, indoctrinated, unenlightened 'masses'.
There is a real danger that disillusion with the current political set-up will lead to the reemergence of right-wing fascist groups in new clothes...Marine Le Pen in France, the True Finns, Geert Wilders in the Netherlands....
At times like these we need to beware of lunatics and extremists.


----------



## Malagueño

I don't think that people are stupid.....they are just deliberately kept in the dark....and they don't know they're in the dark because they're so ingeniously kept there......in ignorance of truth. By the entirely-owned and extremely sophisticated propaganda machines.

And when offered anything nearer to the truth......it doesn't tie-in with their lifelong programming.....so they become frightened and confused.....and then angry at hearing a greater truth.

So they start name-calling and pigeon-holing those that challenge their programming. They say, in effect, _"you are evil and dangerous because you are not running with/according-to the great programme like the rest of us. And because you don't think in the conventional (according to programme) way like the rest of us .....you are a nutter/conspiracy theorist/extremist!"_

Or, as our masters now say, you are a terrorist.

Then they can use all that draconian anti-terrorist legislation that they have sneaked in against anybody that does not toe-the-line.

Have a look at the definition of "terrorist" - according to these draconian laws they now have at their disposal.

Regarding who 'they' are, you wont find out by listening to 'their' broadcasts or reading 'their' periodicals....or asking 'their' representatives (people or organisations).

But their is an abundance of information available......most of which is verifiable.......if you should want to verify it.

As for me, I sure don't know all the answers.....wish I did! (or do I?........it could be extremely harmful to health (mental and physical!!).

Was I subect to the same indoctrination as everybody else? Almost every single soul born onto this planet is subject to the "appropriate" (according to 'them') indoctrination/programming/conditioning.

I am escaping......but haven't yet entirely escaped......perhaps never will?

The conditioning is very ingrained.....even after my eyes were opened to alot of truths, I still found myself sometimes thinking 'according to conditioning'. Still do at times.

But if you want to get nearer to the truth.....if you're really determined and not too terrified of what you might find outside the cage that is the conditioned mind.....you can understand things you have never understood before.

In some ways, it makes life easier.....in some ways it makes life harder.

Finally, I do not 'rant' anymore. If ppeole choose to ask/discuss a certain matter, I will answer/discuss that matter.

I have learned that it is a sheer waste of time and energy speaking of these things with those that don't want to know.

It is known that when a person that has been enslaved all of their life is offered the opportunity to be free, they choose to remain in slavery.

That's all they've ever known. It may not be great, but they've learnt to live with it.....to just get on with it.

After all, they might not like being free......and the responsibility that comes with freedom!

PS: Fascist systems? You aint seen nothing as fierce and cruel as the Fascist system that is at the very door. Nothing anything like it for despotism and ruthlessness. The Fourth Reich is upon us......investigate and you will easily see it! It's all around us as we speak.....but it's all planned....and the time is not quite riht.....just yet!


----------



## Sonrisa

mrypg9 said:


> Rajoy, Zapatero...it doesn't matter who....Whoever is in government will be squeezed between the needs of the people and the demands of the bond markets.
> 
> PSOE were decisively trounced in our municipality. PP got 17 out of 25 consejales...
> It will be interesting to see what they do with such a majority.


At this point I feel that the needs to the voters should be what matters to whoever is in power, even if it jeopardises the economy and the euro itself. Whaever happened to the idea of the two tier economy in Europe? It starts to make a lot of sense right now. I wish had a crystal ball to see the future


Personally I would like to see a meaningful crack down in corruption and black economy, *ahem* end of tax heavens, loose up legislation, particularly employment laws, red tape, and a focus and support towards manufacturing and the production of renewable and inexpensive energy. 

About the municipalities...I was reading BBC's Hewitt this morning, interesting what he had to say, I quote: "What has really unsettled observers, however, is what the new conservative administrations will find when they start peering into the accounts in the town halls and regional governments across the country. There are stories of undisclosed debts, of payments not made"


----------



## Sonrisa

Malagueno:

We have a say in spanish: Lo bueno, si breve, dos veces bueno 
I'm a terrible translator, but I'll give it a go: 
What's good, when brief, twice as good!

I find your post are too good... and too long!


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## Malagueño

Hello Sonrisa,

I know what you mean about them being too long!!

You only have to read them.....I've got to write the b***ming things!

And I'm working at the computer all day today so I've had quite enough of it!

My backside is numb as anything!

But......in the public service


----------



## Sonrisa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sonrisa - liked the video. Aren't the words originally from _the sunscreen song? _
> An aside... Did you know the Tio Pepe building in Sol has been yaken over by Apple? They are going to open a super store there. In Sol, one of the protesters has a sign saying_ I'm not demonstrating, I'm in the queue for the Apple store!!_
> 
> .


Hi PW! Possibly, I don't know I always associated the "here's to the crazy ones" text to the apple ads, and I always liked it. 
I had no idea about the Tio Pepe building, I guess that's not a bad thing but I feel sadness that the emblematic sign of tio pepe in Sol will be replaced by an apple


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Sonrisa said:


> Hi PW! Possibly, I don't know I always associated the "here's to the crazy ones" text to the apple ads, and I always liked it.
> I had no idea about the Tio Pepe building, I guess that's not a bad thing but I feel sadness that the emblematic sign of tio pepe in Sol will be replaced by an apple


I'm sure they'll put an apple on that building somewhere, but at the moment the sign is just being restored and will be reintalled.

:focus:

The 15 M or the indignados

I don't have the names of economic schools, theories and whatnots, and actually I think they're out of place on a forum like this where I suppose one of the objectives is to communicate your ideas to as many as possible.

I'm pretty sure most of the people in this movement don't know the names or even know that these theories exist. But what I know and they know, is that things aren't working out for an awful lot of people and it would be better for the masses (Dictionary definition "The ordinary people in society who are not leaders or who are considered to be not very well educated" perhaps the modern definition could be changed to ...who are not leaders and are from any educational background) if things changed.

At the moment I don't think anyone knows how to change the talk into action and perhaps it will never happen. What's certain is that it will never happen if we carry on the way we were!

If nothing else, these few days will get more people talking, and more ideas flowing. Perhaps more people will be aware of the problems that face us and of what is behind those problems, for example as Malagueño has said the place of big business in politics, the media influence...

Even though I'm very sceptical that this movement will bring about big changes "big things from little acorns grow" and don't under estimate these people. Most of them may be younger than a lot of us are, but they are normal people with needs, thoughts and ideas that are at last being channelled. They are not some hippy loonies to be ignored and swept aside.

You really should go and see what it's all about instead of looking on from the sidelines...


----------



## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> At this point I feel that the needs to the voters should be what matters to whoever is in power, even if it jeopardises the economy and the euro itself. Whaever happened to the idea of the two tier economy in Europe? It starts to make a lot of sense right now. I wish had a crystal ball to see the future
> 
> 
> Personally I would like to see a meaningful crack down in corruption and black economy, *ahem* end of tax heavens, loose up legislation, particularly employment laws, red tape, and a focus and support towards manufacturing and the production of renewable and inexpensive energy.
> 
> About the municipalities...I was reading BBC's Hewitt this morning, interesting what he had to say, I quote: "What has really unsettled observers, however, is what the new conservative administrations will find when they start peering into the accounts in the town halls and regional governments across the country. There are stories of undisclosed debts, of payments not made"


I agree with you, especially about the black economy. I read that Malaga has collected 44% less in taxes this year than in the same period last year. That kind of thing is unsustainable. It's a vicious circle....less revenue collected, less spending on worthwhile projects, more incentive to work on the black...and so it goes on.

I have also heard similar stories in our locality, about unpaid bills, huge municipal debts etc. Our town hall has a deficit of 160 million euros....And we have had a lot of very desireable improvements in our village...new infant school/cultural cenre, new pavements, a palm avenue...but has it been paid for?
I'm sorry our very decentand honest PSOE Mayor lost out but he inherited a mess from his PSOE predecessor (now awaiting trial on various corruption charges).


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky;527643I don't have the names of economic schools said:


> They are essential to an understanding of what has happened and what is perhaps needed.
> Free market versus social market = Hayek/Friedman versus Keynes.
> I don't believe you aren't familiar with those economists...


----------



## mrypg9

Malagueño said:


> Regarding who 'they' are, you wont find out by listening to 'their' broadcasts or reading 'their' periodicals....or asking 'their' representatives (people or organisations).
> 
> But their is an abundance of information available......most of which is verifiable.......if you should want to verify it.
> 
> _*I asked you that specific question -who are these people? as you seem to know. You said they have been working to enslave the world for centuries...so who are they?*_
> 
> I have learned that it is a sheer waste of time and energy speaking of these things with those that don't want to know.
> 
> [I*]That's what people always say when they get asked questions they can't answer[/I]*.
> 
> 
> It is known that when a person that has been enslaved all of their life is offered the opportunity to be free, they choose to remain in slavery.
> 
> That's all they've ever known. It may not be great, but they've learnt to live with it.....to just get on with it.
> 
> _*Is that so? What evidence do you have of this?*_
> 
> After all, they might not like being free......and the responsibility that comes with freedom!
> 
> *Indeed they might not. But that begs the question: what is freedom*?
> 
> PS: Fascist systems? You aint seen nothing as fierce and cruel as the Fascist system that is at the very door. Nothing anything like it for despotism and ruthlessness. The Fourth Reich is upon us......investigate and you will easily see it! It's all around us as we speak.....but it's all planned....and the time is not quite riht.....just yet!


*Oh come off it. Have you any idea of the number of millions that were killed as a result of the policies and aggressive wars of the Third Reich? Or Stalin for that matter?
Are you into some esoteric religion? Whatever, you have your views and I have mine so we have no mutually agreed points from which to discuss.*


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky;527643
You really should go and see what it's all about instead of looking on from the sidelines...[/QUOTE said:


> Well, Madrid is a long way off, but if there were a similar demonstration nearer I would go to participate, not watch.
> There are alternatives to current policies...reregulation of financial markets, using public money to pump-prime and thus create employment and tax revenue as well as putting money back into the economy by spending in shops etc.
> Not cutting public sector jobs, encouraging start-ups, new training opportunities, some slight reform of the current labour laws.
> These are all achievable...it's a step towards a social market economy, not a society that is a slave of the market.
> Real -life politicians are needed to put these real alternatives into legislation in real-time.
> Talk of dark forces and so on isn't of much practical use. Anyone who doesn't realise the power of mobile global finance - the money markets/currency exchanges/bond markets affect our lives much more than big business because of the vice-like grip they exert over governments - doesn't get out much, watch tv or read newspapers.
> People should be asking why Germany isn't like Spain?
> There are sound reasons, reasons of policy choices, why the German economy is doing well and its welfare system still generous. The German attachment to the social market under 'conservative' Merkel is seemingly stronger than that of 'socialist' Zapatero.


----------



## Sonrisa

People should be asking why Germany isn't like Spain?[/QUOTE said:


> That's funny, I have spent the afternoon with my german friend and we have been talking about this one....
> 
> We came out with: 1 house ownership differences (too high in Sp versus too low in Germany) 2- A manufacturing focused economy versus a service and tourism focused economy 3- Transparency vs corruption
> :juggle:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Well, Madrid is a long way off, but if there were a similar demonstration nearer I would go to participate, not watch.
> There are alternatives to current policies...reregulation of financial markets, using public money to pump-prime and thus create employment and tax revenue as well as putting money back into the economy by spending in shops etc.
> Not cutting public sector jobs, encouraging start-ups, new training opportunities, some slight reform of the current labour laws.
> These are all achievable...it's a step towards a social market economy, not a society that is a slave of the market.
> Real -life politicians are needed to put these real alternatives into legislation in real-time.
> Talk of dark forces and so on isn't of much practical use. Anyone who doesn't realise the power of mobile global finance - the money markets/currency exchanges/bond markets affect our lives much more than big business because of the vice-like grip they exert over governments - doesn't get out much, watch tv or read newspapers.
> People should be asking why Germany isn't like Spain?
> There are sound reasons, reasons of policy choices, why the German economy is doing well and its welfare system still generous. The German attachment to the social market under 'conservative' Merkel is seemingly stronger than that of 'socialist' Zapatero.


Well, no the idea is that _*I'd*_ go to Madrid, or actually the town where I live as from the weekend, and you'd go to
Marbella: Plaza de los Naranjos.

This a nationwide, in fact European movement

*ESPAÑA*
A Coruña: El Obelisco.
Albacete: Pza. del Altozano 20h.
Alcoy: plaza de España
Alicante: Plaza de la Montanyeta, 19 horas.
Almería: Plaza de Juan Casinello – (Plaza del educador) – (Plaza de la leche)
Aranda de Duero: concentración plaza de la Constitución, viernes 20 de mayo 20h00
Arcos de la Frontera, Cádiz PASEO DE ANDALUCÍA ARCOS DE LA FRONTERA 20:00 #acampadaarcos
Arrecife (Lanzarote) Jueves a las 20h frente al Cabildo
Badajoz: Avenida de Huelva. 18 de Mayo. 20:00h.
Barcelona: Plaça Catalunya #acampadabcn #catalanrevolution
Benidorm.
Bilbao: Bilbao twitter: @acampadabilbao y @bilbaoacampada
Burgos: Plaza Mayor, 20 horas.
Bustarviejo (Sierra Norte de Madrid): sábado 21 de mayo asamblea a las 20:00
Cáceres: Plaza Mayor. 19 de Mayo. 23.30 horas.
Cadiz: Plaza palillero
Cartagena: Plaza de los Juncos, 21 horas.
Castellón: Pza Mª Agustina. #acampadacastellón
Castelldefels: Plaza de la Iglesia s/n Saturday, May 21 · 7:30pm – 10:00pm
Castro Caldelas (Ourense): viernes 20 de mayo a las 8 en la Plaza do Prado
Chiclana: una concentración permanente en la plaza Las Bodegas desde el pasado Miércoles
Ciudad Real: Plaza Mayor.
Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca: Friday, May 20 · 8:00pm – 11:00pm
Ciutadella de Menorca: viernes 20 de mayo concentración en la Plaza de las Palmeras
Colmenarejo (Madrid): Asamblea Popular para el 28 de mayo
Collado Villalba: sábado 28 a las 12h00 en la Plaza de la Estación
Cornellà de Llobregat (Barcelona)
Córdoba: Boulevard de Gran Capitán, 20 horas.
Cuenca: Plaza de San Esteban 20:30h.
Donostia-San Sebastián: Kiosko del Boulevard, 20 horas
Écija: Plaza de España.
Elche: Plaça de baix, 20:00
Fuencarral-El Pardo: Plaza Metro Montecarmelo Sábado 28 a las 12:00
Gijón: Plaza del Conceyu, #spanishrevolution #acampadagijon
Girona: Plaça del vi 19 maio 20h
Granada: Plaza del Carmen (Ayuntamiento), 20 horas
Gran Canaria: Plaza de Los Algodoneros, Vecindario
Guadalajara. Plaza del Ayuntamiento.
Gandia a las 20:00 en la plaza Mayor, delante del ayuntamiento http://acampadagandia.blogspot.com
Huelva: Plaza Antiguo Colombino, 18 horas.
Huesca. Plaza Zaragoza. 19 de mayo, 20:00h.
Jerez: http://jerez.tomalaplaza.net
Langreo: Plaza del Ayuntamiento, 18 horas.
Las Palmas de Gran Canaria: Plaza de San Telmo.
León: Plaza Botines, 20 horas.León
La linea de la Concepción: Plaza de la Iglesia sábado 21 de mayo a las 20h
La Llagosta (Barcelona): DOMINGO 22 DE MAYO a las 20h. en la Plaça Antoni Baqué
Lleida: Plaza Ricard Vinyes, 20 horas.
Logroño (la Rioja): Plaza del Mercado 20h
Lugo. Plaza Mayor. 20h. #acampadaLugo
Madrid: http://madrid.tomalaplaza.net
Málaga: Plaza de la Constitución, 19 horas.http://malaga.tomalaplaza.net
Marbella: viernes 20 de mayo 20h Plaza de los Naranjos
Mataró: plaça Santa Ana. 19 y 20 de mayo. 20:00h
Melilla: Plaza de España viernes 20 de mayo a las 19:30 h
Mérida. Plaza de España. 20:30h.
Mieres: Plaza del Ayuntamiento, 18 horas.
Monforte de Lemos – Lugo viernes 20 de mayo a las 8 acampada en plaza España
Murcia: La Glorieta, 20 horas.
Nueva Baztan (Madrid) Plaza del Ayuntamiento sábado 28 de mayo a las 12h
Orihuela: Plaza de las Salesas (Universidad) #acampadaorihuela
Ourense: Praza Maior, 20 horas.
Oviedo: Plaza de la Escandalera #acampadaoviedo
Palencia: Plaza Mayor 20h
Palma de Mallorca: Plaza de España, 18 horas.
Pamplona: Plaza del Ayuntamiento, 20 horas.
Pontevedra: asamblea sábado 21 y lunes 23 de mayo Plaza de la Peregrina. 20:00h
Ponteareas, Pontevedra, Galiza: Plaza de la Iglesia viernes 20de mayo 20:00h
Puerto de Santa Maria (Cádiz): Plaza del Polvorista
Reus: Viernes 20M en plaça Mercadal 20h concentración de indignadas y indignados 21h concierto con The caceroleixon band
Salamanca: Plaza de la Constitución, 24 horas.
Santa Cruz de Tenerife: Plaza de la Candelaria, 20 horas.
Santander: Plaza Porticada, 20 horas.
Santiago de Compostela: Plaza del Obradoiro, 19 horas.
Santiago: Plaza del Obradoiro
Segovia: Plaza del Azoguejo, 20 horas.
Sevilla. Plaza de Metrosol. Encarnación. #acampadasevilla
Soria: Plaza Mayor, 20 horas.
Talavera de la Reina. Plaza del pan. Viernes 20 mayo. 19h.
Tarragona: Plaça de la font. @acampadatgn, #acampadatgn
Tenerife: Plaza de la Candelaria, en Santa Cruz (al final de la Calle Castillo)
Terrassa. #acampadaTRS
Teruel: Viernes 20 de mayo, 20.00h en la Plaza San Juan
Toledo: Zocodover, 20 horas. Toledo
Torrejón de Ardoz: Asamblea miércoles 25 de Mayo a las 21:00 en la Plaza de España junto a la fuente del parque de los patos.
Valencialaza El Palillero Paseo Reflexivo 20h00http://valencia.tomalaplaza.net/#acampadavalencia #acampadavlc
Valladolid: Plaza de Fuente Dorada. #acampadavalladolid #asambleavalladolid #fuentedorada
Vic: Plaça Major jueves 19 de mayo a les 20 H
Vilagarcía de Arousa: en la Plaza de Galicia a las 18:00
Vigolaza Ribadavia (La Farola) #acampadavigo
Yecla (Murcia) vienres 20 de mayo a las 21:30 en la Plaza Mayor frente al Ayuntamiento.
Zamora: Plaza del gobierno. 19 de mayo. 14h Zamora
Zaragoza: Plaza del Pilar. FB acampadazgz, @acampadazgz, 

International listed here
Toma la plaza


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Well, Madrid is a long way off, but if there were a similar demonstration nearer I would go to participate, not watch.
> There are alternatives to current policies...reregulation of financial markets, using public money to pump-prime and thus create employment and tax revenue as well as putting money back into the economy by spending in shops etc.
> Not cutting public sector jobs, encouraging start-ups, new training opportunities, some slight reform of the current labour laws.
> These are all achievable...it's a step towards a social market economy, not a society that is a slave of the market.
> Real -life politicians are needed to put these real alternatives into legislation in real-time.
> Talk of dark forces and so on isn't of much practical use. Anyone who doesn't realise the power of mobile global finance - the money markets/currency exchanges/bond markets affect our lives much more than big business because of the vice-like grip they exert over governments - doesn't get out much, watch tv or read newspapers.
> People should be asking why Germany isn't like Spain?
> There are sound reasons, reasons of policy choices, why the German economy is doing well and its welfare system still generous. The German attachment to the social market under 'conservative' Merkel is seemingly stronger than that of 'socialist' Zapatero.


I can see 2 sides to the circle here. I can see why those that are demonstrating are trying to make sure the politicians stand well clear and why they didn't get and haven't got involved with any political party up to now. 
However, I realise, as I'm sure they do, that if things are to move forward contact has to be made. Before you change the system you have to work with it. 
Hopefully, after some time some more concrete proposals will be put forward and can be worked on.
Unfortunately, I think there are many people who see big businesses just as successful businesses without looking into the whys and wherefores.On a highstreet level look at the Tescos empire. Look at Wallmart. Are people bothered (Catherine Tate!)? And even if they are does anything happen to stop them? People mostly see what they want to see and they don't want to see "dark forces" as you say. Global trading is great, developing countries are happy to have our trade etc etc.

And that's just your basic high street, but when it comes to the more behind the scenes stuff, do you think we really have any idea of what's going on? I doubt it. An example
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Bilderberg: The ultimate conspiracy theory
Bilderberg Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PS I have heard of Keynes, but not the others.


----------



## Malagueño

mrypg9 said:


> *Oh come off it. Have you any idea of the number of millions that were killed as a result of the policies and aggressive wars of the Third Reich? Or Stalin for that matter?
> Are you into some esoteric religion? Whatever, you have your views and I have mine so we have no mutually agreed points from which to discuss.*


Divide and conquer......brilliant! It's worked a treat for centuries.

The third Reich and Stalin are amateurs compared to the number of people that these NWO dogs have slain, tortured, mutilated, tormented, persecuted, enslaved etc, etc, etc.

They do it year in, year out.....and mostly to innocents that want nothing more than to have shelter, clothes on their backs, food for their families......and peace to live as they choose - without causing danger, harm or loss to others.

But these psycopathic megalomaniacs murdering, butchering and destroying under the banner of their false 'democracy' continue to do it with the cheering, jingoistic consent of their programmed/conditioned sheep.

In fact, the programmed and conditioned sheep absolutely DEMAND it!!

Name calling and marginalising...... didn't I mention that well-used technque before?

I don't understand where you're coming from and therefore I must denigrate you and marginalise you because you dare to question my lifelong programming and conditioning.

You want to pigeon-hole me as some sort of religious nut? Or an extremist? Or maybe even a terrorist?

Cos that's exactly what you're trying to do.

Fine!

You prove some of my points perfectly.......the strength and power of the programming - and the hatred and division it generates - which we receive throughout our lives.

But, I do understand where you're coming from......the system of immensely powerful and controlling indoctrinisation producing hatred, marginilisation and division.

That's exactly the reaction 'they' intend to create.

Because if we ever stopped to think critically for a moment.....and stepped out of the invisible prison of the mind......they and their plans would be entirely.......thwarted (not wanting to use the common venacular on the forum).

Why not do some research outside of what you are fed?

It can't do any harm.

After all, most people will sit through 90 minutes of a movie that offers incredible plots that we mostly enjoy.....because we suspend our programming/conditioning for an hour or two.

Why not do the same with 'real' life?

You never know, you might see something that you've never seen before.

Sleep tight.


----------



## jb44

mrypg9 said:


> What evidence do you have of that?
> The 'unravelling of the euro' (whatever that means) has been predicted since its inception ten years ago..


Reading the piece in the Telegraph makes for grim reading,especially for Spain.

Personally I fully agree with most of the statements the author makes. Just how is Spain Greece Ireland going to get out of the mess they are in ,a 50% devaluation in currency is one way.
Read it ,very interesting What happens when Greece defaults – Telegraph Blogs


----------



## Malagueño

mrypg9,

I'm sorry but I only saw your last comment in post number 79.....I skimmed past the quote section and so didn't see that you had inserted a couple of comments between the lines.

You commented _"that's what people always say when they can't answer the question"._

I am sure that you - as a self-confessed ex-politician - would know a lot more than most about avoiding questions! :juggle:

I notice that you have asked a few times about who _'they'_ are, what are _'their'_ goals etc.

Well, as I have said a couple of times, if you read back through the earlier posts you will see that I have repeatedly stated their overriding goal.

Also, by reading earlier posts you would also glean ample information to enable you to start looking into things for yourself.

But if you really are genuinely interested, the best way to learn of these things is to do your own research......that's how I got knowledge of these things.

But then, I was hungry for the truth.....still am! Maybe you're not so hungry for it? 

How does that saying go? Don't give a poor man a fish......show him how to fish. Something like that anyway!

So just go ahead and Google some imaginative key words and phrases and see where it takes you......you might even enjoy it.

If your mind is sufficiently open to accept that such things as you may find are not ENTIRELY IMPOSSIBLE, you might even choose to do further, more in-depth research.

But bear in mind, it will be challenging!

*The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.*
Edgar J Hoover 

_Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States —in the fields of commerce and manufacturing—are afraid of somebody. *They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.”*_
Woodrow Wilson


----------



## gerrit

There have been demonstrations in Barcelona the last week continuously, some people (mainly students) even camping for days on the Placa Catalunya. Even in the middle of the night there were speeches and people had littered the place with protest banners.

Meanwhile though, people vote for the PP, which is exactly the opposite of what people protesting claim to demand. If any party is likely to reduce government subsidies for public social services, it is the PP. 

Still, despite the protests, I'm not that impressed. Guess that's having lived in Turkey for you. There, there were protests every other weekend during some time, and they were much more impressive than what I've seen here. Taking a public square and wave some banners isn't all that impressive. The one banner that made sense was the one asking for a pacifist revolution, the other slogans were quite cliché and I doubt it has made much impact on politicians ; for sure the voting results are not parallel with the demands of the protesters. (in the margins: the party I'm a member of got 10% of the votes and 5 seats in Barcelona, and 2 in Girona too)


----------



## xabiaxica

Spain is still revolting




> PROTESTORS who have been camping in the main squares of most of Spain's provincial capital cities since last Sunday – May 15 – say they intend to stay there for at least another week.


----------



## Malagueño

xabiachica said:


> Spain is still revolting


If you don't like it so much, why do you live here?


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9, Here are some "imaginative key words and phrases" for you to try googling: "David Icke" "Lizard People"


----------



## Malagueño

jimenato said:


> mrypg9, Here are some "imaginative key words and phrases" for you to try googling: "David Icke" "Lizard People"


Jimenato, I have never gone skiing before.......but I beg you to remind me NEVER EVER to go with you for my first experience!! You would have me on the super-advanced, expert-level slopes when I haven't even learned to put on the skis!!

Don't you think where you suggest starting is a tad too much?? (I'm not saying it's true and I'm not saying it's false).

You're just going to blow people away with that kind of stuff!

To start with, I would suggest, for example, googling 'redacted news' which gives some insight into how the media do not tell us the truth or spread disinformation.....as well as real historical false stories which were massively in the news for a long time. Stories such as the alleged daring rescue of Private Jessica Lynch by US special forces in Iraq. Remember that?

In fact, google 'The Story of Private Jessica Lynch, a Heroine of Propaganda'.

Or google 'The conspiracy theory is now a conspiracy fact'.

Or google 'Bradley Manning'.

Tormented by his conscience, military man Manning released a video shot from an Apache helicopter gun-sight which clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers in Iraq. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.

The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.

After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".

Watch what really happened.......and notice the fun the boys in the gunship are having as they indiscriminately murder and mutilate their fellow human beings.

Collateral Murder

That should be enough to set you on the road.......if you are interested in truth!!


----------



## jimenato

Bad things happen in wars - and in peace come to that. However that doesn't prove or even demonstrate that there is a global conspiracy called the New World Order.


----------



## Malagueño

jimenato said:


> Bad things happen in wars - and in peace come to that. However that doesn't prove or even demonstrate that there is a global conspiracy called the New World Order.


That's absolutely true.

But as quoted previously:

*"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."*
J Edgar Hoover

and also:

*The real rulers of Washington are Invisible and exercise power from behind the scenes.*
Justice Felix Frankfurter, US Supreme Court Justice.

For Washington here, read _"the world"._

And....

*"We shall have World Government. Whether or not we like it. The only Question is whether World Government will be achieved by conquest or consent."*
James Paul Warburg , Foreign agent for the Rothschild dynasty - Major Player in the Federal Reserve act scam / Feb. 17, 1950 speaking before the U.S. Senate. 

These people *KNOW* something.

*"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our Banking and Monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a Revolution before tomorrow morning." *
Henry Ford,

*"We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the world - no longer a Government of free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men."*Woodrow Wilson [U.S. President during World War I]

These 'in the know' people made these statements absolutely years ago!!

Don't you think things might have moved on a bit since then?

Of course they have!

The thing is, most people are too strongly programmed/conditioned by the idea that the various governments of this world have their people's best interests at heart.

This couldn't be further from the truth!!

There is a plan in place and this plan will march on irrespective of the consideration of mere people.

And it will all progress undetected by the *SHEEP*le.

As I have said before, the deluded and controlled *SHEEP*le will absolutely demand that every step of the plan is implemented.

It's ingeniously planned beyond standard imagination.

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director.

The people of the world are faced with SEVERAL *monstrous* conspiracies - but they are cerainly NOT theories.


----------



## jimenato

You have pulled together a series of completely unconnected quotes and are choosing seeing a pattern in them.

I see them as they are - a series of unconnected quotes.


----------



## Happyexpat

*Good natured*

Of course apart from action starting it was good natured, and turned into a Fiesta in the evening, typical of the Spanish and a credit to them!



Pesky Wesky said:


> The discontented Spanish are taking to the streets and demonstrating asking for
> 
> _... la vivienda, el trabajo, la cultura, la salud, la educación, la participación política, el libre desarrollo personal y derecho al consumo de los bienes necesarios para una vida sana y feliz".
> 
> _...housing, work, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development and the right to consume basic commodities deemed necessary for a healthy, happy life
> 
> _...gritos de "esta crisis no la pagamos", "no más corrupción, pasamos a la acción", "manos arriba, esto es un atraco", "PSOE-PP la misma mierda es"
> _
> There were shouts of "we're not paying for this crisis" "No more corruption. Let's get into action" "Hands up. This is a hold up" "PSOE - PP. It's all the same ****"
> 
> I saw a sign that said _"NO hay pan para tanto chorizo_" There's not enough bread for all this chorizo. Chorizo has a double meaning - the chorizo that you eat, and a petty thief...
> Miles de ciudadanos "sin casa, sin curro y sin miedo" exigen "un futuro digno" · ELPAÍS.com
> Too little action too late, I fear, but this could really take off.
> 
> I didn't know anything about it as the protest was called on Twitter and Facebook...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> You have pulled together a series of completely unconnected quotes and are choosing seeing a pattern in them.
> 
> I see them as they are - a series of unconnected quotes.



All made by Americans.

Please,

:focus:


----------



## thrax

:focus:

I took to the streets once, but that was largely due to my first wife throwing me out of the house...


----------



## Malagueño

jimenato said:


> You have pulled together a series of completely unconnected quotes and are choosing seeing a pattern in them.
> 
> I see them as they are - a series of unconnected quotes.



Yes, these things have all been said at different times by different people etc.

But are you _really_ saying that you can see no pattern running through them?

You cannot detect a common thread?

You don't think that these more-likely-to-be-in-the-know people than us are speaking of the same thing?

You really think that it is simply coincidence that they appear to be speaking of tremendously powerful unseen people that are _really_ running the show but in fact there is absolutely no connection whatsoever - they are just random quotes?


----------



## Malagueño

Agreed PW -

:focus:


----------



## Happyexpat

I think the bottom line is that people, whatever culture, country, colour or creed are basically fed up with the current state of politics. It would seem that nothing really works, democracy, dictatorship or anything else. I can't remember who said the famous quote "power corrupts ad absolute power corrupts absolutely", an American president I think but it is true.
So yes, conspiracy theories apart, there is a common thread, people everywhere are p###] off and starting to say so. This is going to spread over the Summer to most of Europe so it could be, to quote Terry Pratchett, Interesting times.


----------



## Sonrisa

Well due to some unexpected circumstances I have had to to put forward my travelling date to Spain, and so I'll be there joining my nearest demostration, probably in Pontevedra or Vigo!

PErsonally I just want to see people getting a job that suit their skills and experience. Everything else is pretty irrelevant at the moment IMO.


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> I think the bottom line is that people, whatever culture, country, colour or creed are basically fed up with the current state of politics. It would seem that nothing really works, democracy, dictatorship or anything else. I can't remember who said the famous quote "power corrupts ad absolute power corrupts absolutely", an American president I think but it is true.
> So yes, conspiracy theories apart, there is a common thread, people everywhere are p###] off and starting to say so. This is going to spread over the Summer to most of Europe so it could be, to quote Terry Pratchett, Interesting times.


And right now truncheon wielding scum are clearing the plaza in Barcelona because to the spanish elite a football match is more important than hungry kids  

They are not clearing Sol because Real Madrid are not playing 

They even tried to turn off the cameras but (luckily in this case) the TV and press are a tenacious lot.

Recently someone here objected when I said Spain was nearer to Libya than Germany. From the TV pictures I think I might win that one. Even the colonel thinks children are worth more than football. 

As you say Happyexpat this will escalate and hopefully very rapidly.

ps. Same here Sonrisa. Jobs put food in children's mouths


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Sonrisa said:


> Well due to some unexpected circumstances I have had to to put forward my travelling date to Spain, and so I'll be there joining my nearest demostration, probably in Pontevedra or Vigo!
> 
> PErsonally I just want to see people getting a job that suit their skills and experience. Everything else is pretty irrelevant at the moment IMO.


Hey!
How long will you be here Sonrisa? Are you looking forward to being in Spain again?

My protesting will have to wait another week as I'll be in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of Cantabria this weekend.

Positives - I'll be going to the altamira caves
Not so positives - I'll be accompanied by my 7 in laws plus children


----------



## Sonrisa

Yes! I sooo look forward to goin back home finally! Ill be there till the end of August. Plenty of time to join some protests here and there.
Enjoy your trip! Cantabria is meant be gorgeous this time of the year. Good luck with the suegros.


----------



## Sonrisa

nigele2 said:


> Recently someone here objected when I said Spain was nearer to Libya than Germany. From the TV pictures I think I might win that one. Even the colonel thinks children are worth more than football.




Nigele - sorry but thats way OTT, don't you think. Or maybe just pure ignorance. Have you got an idea of the masacre, the torturing and the lost of innocent lifes that are happening in countries such as Libya Egypt Syria Yemen etc
as a result of their governments crack down on protesters?


----------



## Malagueño

And as for the "_truncheon wielding scum"_, where do their wages come from......yes, that's right......from the likes of those that they are terrorising and bullying.

This is what I mean about these shameless thugs......they call themselves _'public servants'_!!

What would happen to a servant that tried to beat his master?

And in the extremely unlikely event that they are hauled before a peoples' court, they will say "I voss only obeyink orders".

These scum are living somewhere among the people they are persecuting.

When I said about _'none co-operation'_ with their corrupt, tyrannical system, part of it would be that the likes of these don't get to go into their local bar, nor served in restaurants, nor supermarkets, nor petrol stations, nor do tradesmen do any work for them, nor do taxi drivers allow them in their cabs, the postie refuses to deliver their mail, the counter clerk refuses to hand them their mail if they go to collect it themselves...... etc etc

Non-cooperation with the oppressive system and the enforcers of the system.

That is the type of action these individuals would have to think about.


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> And right now truncheon wielding scum are clearing the plaza in Barcelona because to the spanish elite a football match is more important than hungry kids


I think you'll find it's not just the Spanish elite who will be cheering as Barça thrash Man U tomorrow. I bet most of the demonstrators will be back to watch it too. 



nigele2 said:


> Recently someone here objected when I said Spain was nearer to Libya than Germany. From the TV pictures I think I might win that one. Even the colonel thinks children are worth more than football.


I tbink it was me who objected then to that comment before, and I still do. As Sonrisa said, there is absolutely no comparison. Gaddafi has shown the world exactly what he thinks of young Libyans who don't support his regime.


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> I think you'll find it's not just the Spanish elite who will be cheering as Barça thrash Man U tomorrow. I bet most of the demonstrators will be back to watch it too.


IMO you'll see in the coming months that to these demonstrators and the spanish families who are feeding the kids lentils and nothing else that there are more important things than footie. 

I'm a football fan. However if having the s**t knocked out of pacifists by state employed armed thugs is the price I'll give it up tomorrow




Alcalaina said:


> I tbink it was me who objected then to that comment before, and I still do. As Sonrisa said, there is absolutely no comparison. Gaddafi has shown the world exactly what he thinks of young Libyans who don't support his regime.


Personally I think the difference between Germany and how it treats its people, and Spain and how it treats its people is enormous. I do not see a great divide between people who kill one person and those that kill millions - they are killers. Again watch this space. 

But anyway lets focus on the battle in hand. At the moment Barcelona is intact and messages to the spanish government are likely to block their email system. 

ps: Nice video on the front page of El Mundo at the moment  http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> But anyway lets focus on the battle in hand. At the moment Barcelona is intact and messages to the spanish government are likely to block their email system.
> 
> ps: Nice video on the front page of El Mundo at the moment  elmundo.es. Líder de información en español


That is awful. Looks like JoCatalunya is right about the Mossos.


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> I think you'll find it's not just the Spanish elite who will be cheering as Barça thrash Man U tomorrow. I bet most of the demonstrators will be back to watch it too.


Your dreaming ! A) They won't win , & B) there's hardly a spaniard around here that would ever support Barca.I'm not a Man U. fan but they're the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Malagueño

Lovely to see such a trivial load of sh**e such as football being so much as mentioned on this thread.

Don't get me wrong, I watch football every week......but to mention it in the same vein as such a profoundly meaningful subject as this is astonishing!

I have just watched the Spanish news reports from Barcelona and saw peaceful, flower-carrying demonstrators beaten with batons and pushed around by paramilitary uniformed, payrolled thugs with the word _'Police' _emblazoned on their anonymous suits.

What kind of shi*houses are these cowards!!

I have said previously that all demonstrations must be absolutely peaceful.....but their behaviour is so provocative that I wish we could all have batons and anonymous, protective uniforms and take them, strip them naked and tie them to trees.....photographing and videoing their cowardly corrupt-system collaborative faces to shame them, and their families in their own local communities.

Like I have said before......entirely boycott these collaborators.....give them nothing - not even a neighbourly salute - until they stop oppressing the people they claim to serve.

But, getting back to the provocation of violence.......they really, really, really want this peaceful demonstration to turn violent and aggressive so that they can justify greater thuggery on their behalf to _'quell'_ the unrest.

And like I have said before, the *SHEEP*le will applaud their thuggery.....demanding more to stop these extremists......even terrorists (as their new draconian, _'anti.terror' _legislation allows them to label people).

I was in my local bar tonight, and one of the most pathetic victims of _'their'_ enforced tyranny and enslavement of the people actually applauded these cowardly, para-military uniformed cowards.......he stated that these roads are public highways and should be cleared so that the public are free to use them unhindered!!!!!

Please.....has anybody got a pistol I can use to take myself out of being amongst such incredible blindness and willing enslavement??

But like I say, they would love to provoke these peaceful demonstrators into some form of violent unrest........the agente provocateurs don't seem to have surfaced yet....but maybe they're hoping that their unjustifiable violence against the (peaceful) people will incite these great defenders of people power into retaliation......please God no!

That is _'their'_ filthy little hope. Cowardly, scheming, lying, manipulative filth!!

The top slavemasters (it is a pyramid-system of enslavement) have no power at all without their pay-rolled, anonymous, para-military enforcement agents forcing _'their'_ tyranny on the people.

I imagined my system-defending friend in the bar tonight being a galley slave: pulling hard on that oar to please the slightly higher-up slave who goes around lashing the backs of the lower slaves to keep them _'motivated'_ to carry on rowing.

A rowing slaves protests at the whip-handler lashing the back of his feeble neighbour - only for the emaciated neighbour to defend the higher-slave using the lash saying:

_"No, it is good that he lashes our backs and abuses us....I mean after all, if he didn't beat us and abuse us like this, nobody would row and then the great ship that our enslaved efforts are driving forward would simply stop and never reach its destination"._

Anyway, that said.......more tea vicar?


----------



## gus-lopez

Malagueño said:


> Lovely to see such a trivial load of sh**e such as football being so much as mentioned on this thread.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I watch football every week......but to mention it in the same vein as such a profoundly meaningful subject as this is astonishing!
> 
> I have just watched the Spanish news reports from Barcelona and saw peaceful, flower-carrying demonstrators beaten with batons and pushed around by paramilitary uniformed, payrolled thugs with the word _'Police' _emblazoned on their anonymous suits.
> 
> What kind of shi*houses are these cowards!!
> 
> I have said previously that all demonstrations must be absolutely peaceful.....but their behaviour is so provocative that I wish we could all have batons and anonymous, protective uniforms and take them, strip them naked and tie them to trees.....photographing and videoing their cowardly corrupt-system collaborative faces to shame them, and their families in their own local communities.
> 
> Like I have said before......entirely boycott these collaborators.....give them nothing - not even a neighbourly salute - until they stop oppressing the people they claim to serve.
> 
> But, getting back to the provocation of violence.......they really, really, really want this peaceful demonstration to turn violent and aggressive so that they can justify greater thuggery on their behalf to _'quell'_ the unrest.
> 
> And like I have said before, the *SHEEP*le will applaud their thuggery.....demanding more to stop these extremists......even terrorists (as their new draconian, _'anti.terror' _legislation allows them to label people).
> 
> I was in my local bar tonight, and one of the most pathetic victims of _'their'_ enforced tyranny and enslavement of the people actually applauded these cowardly, para-military uniformed cowards.......he stated that these roads are public highways and should be cleared so that the public are free to use them unhindered!!!!!
> 
> Please.....has anybody got a pistol I can use to take myself out of being amongst such incredible blindness and willing enslavement??
> 
> But like I say, they would love to provoke these peaceful demonstrators into some form of violent unrest........the agente provocateurs don't seem to have surfaced yet....but maybe they're hoping that their unjustifiable violence against the (peaceful) people will incite these great defenders of people power into retaliation......please God no!
> 
> That is _'their'_ filthy little hope. Cowardly, scheming, lying, manipulative filth!!
> 
> The top slavemasters (it is a pyramid-system of enslavement) have no power at all without their pay-rolled, anonymous, para-military enforcement agents forcing _'their'_ tyranny on the people.
> 
> I imagined my system-defending friend in the bar tonight being a galley slave: pulling hard on that oar to please the slightly higher-up slave who goes around lashing the backs of the lower slaves to keep them _'motivated'_ to carry on rowing.
> 
> A rowing slaves protests at the whip-handler lashing the back of his feeble neighbour - only for the emaciated neighbour to defend the higher-slave using the lash saying:
> 
> _"No, it is good that he lashes our backs and abuses us....I mean after all, if he didn't beat us and abuse us like this, nobody would row and then the great ship that our enslaved efforts are driving forward would simply stop and never reach its destination"._
> 
> Anyway, that said.......more tea vicar?


As I have said for many years, & on posts on here the days of a 'Mad Max ' scenario will arrive. I was talking about the UK , but it seems that Spain & possibly Cataluña will be first. 
Unless people stand up to be counted then things will not change. It's easy to look the other way & bite your tongue, thinking about your mortgage , bills , family whilst seething over these outrages , which have been going on for years & getting worse year on year ! 
I think now though that the situation is coming to a head due to the economic situation & the young unemployment & lack of any prospects. It needs the older people to back them up. 

What these 'scum' , as you so rightly call them & who are the same in most countries now, fail to realise is that they are outnumbered 10000 to 1 . If the people turn on them they'll be gone. You can only push them so far before they turn.
I've never let anything pass whether affecting me , my family or someone passing in the street . If it's unjust , bullying or just abuse of authority I speak up. Since I now don't have to worry about paying a mortgage , bills, etc; I can be even more forthright . I would have certainly squared up anyone applauding the scenes being witnessed in Barcelona !
You have to remember in my aside to football, that all sport developed out of the need to prevent wars between communities . Rather than fighting & slaughtering each other they sent there strongest to do battle individually or as teams & to the victor the spoils. It would appear that we have forgotten the lessons & are doomed to repeat them !

I think your non cooperation idea , boycott the scum , ( That's a nice idea for stickers & T- shirts ! ) is excellent & would certainly work if you can get the people onside. No food, no drink, no post , no petrol , etc; etc; etc.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> As I have said for many years, & on posts on here the days of a 'Mad Max ' scenario will arrive. I was talking about the UK , but it seems that Spain & possibly Cataluña will be first.
> Unless people stand up to be counted then things will not change. It's easy to look the other way & bite your tongue, thinking about your mortgage , bills , family whilst seething over these outrages , which have been going on for years & getting worse year on year !
> I think now though that the situation is coming to a head due to the economic situation & the young unemployment & lack of any prospects. It needs the older people to back them up.
> 
> What these 'scum' , as you so rightly call them & who are the same in most countries now, fail to realise is that they are outnumbered 10000 to 1 . If the people turn on them they'll be gone. You can only push them so far before they turn.
> I've never let anything pass whether affecting me , my family or someone passing in the street . If it's unjust , bullying or just abuse of authority I speak up. Since I now don't have to worry about paying a mortgage , bills, etc; I can be even more forthright . I would have certainly squared up anyone applauding the scenes being witnessed in Barcelona !
> You have to remember in my aside to football, that all sport developed out of the need to prevent wars between communities . Rather than fighting & slaughtering each other they sent there strongest to do battle individually or as teams & to the victor the spoils. It would appear that we have forgotten the lessons & are doomed to repeat them !
> 
> I think your non cooperation idea , boycott the scum , ( That's a nice idea for stickers & T- shirts ! ) is excellent & would certainly work if you can get the people onside. No food, no drink, no post , no petrol , etc; etc; etc.



:clap2::clap2::clap2: Well said!

I don't believe the outrageous behaviour of the Barcelona police had anything to do with football - that was just an excuse. They want to provoke a violent reaction so they can really crack down. Similar to what happened in London recently over student fees ...

Am I right in thinking that the orders came from the Catalan government and not the national one? Because they have certainly shot themselves in the foot, as the eyes of the world are now on them - and the number of _indignados_ will multiply.


----------



## Happyexpat

Hang on a minute, comparing Spain to Libya, coppers 'scum', promoting civil unrest, not sure I like the way this is going.
There is no way that any country in Europe can be compared to Libya and shouldn't be, it shows a complete lack of knowledge of the dire situation out there! As somebody, quite a few years ago admittedly, who has had to stand in front of a massive crowd of demonstrators, having bricks, fire bombs and bottles thrown at me I can tell you that there are two sides to every story.
Things can and are changed by peaceful demonstrations (which are nowadays usually hijacked by the thug element). No situation is ever solved by violence! It is solved when intelligent people sit around a table, with a will and a resolve to provide a lasting and just solution.


----------



## Malagueño

Wow!

gus-lopez and alcalaina....you really took me by surprise there. I was expecting to be kicked to death for my latest post!

One of the main obstacles to getting people _'onside_' with the boycott idea is overcoming the incredibly potent lifelong mind-conditioning/programming that we have all unwittingly undergone.

We are relentlessly fed manipulative lies day-in, day-out from cradle to grave. The resultant profound belief-system this intentionally produces (for reasons of control) has us accept that any thinking or ideas which do not correspond with the programming simply cannot be true.

A major part of this programming has us firmly believe that our masters (because they are certainly not our servants.....an entirely false belief which they have so successfully established in our psyches) do things exclusively to promote the increasing well-being of the people.

Now this is the exact opposite of the truth! That crucial piece of our programming serves their purpose perfectly......because it causes us to be completely blind to both their sinister intentions of bringing every last aspect of our lives entirely under their control in a global-slavery environment.

We can take any one example of _'their'_ outrageous secret activities and we can easily witness an aspect of their mind programming/control in action.

To bring the global population ENTIRELY under their contro (because we are already under their control to a very high degree), they know for sure that they need to eliminate individual thinking.....and critical thinking.

One of the strategies they have very successfully adopted is that of marginalising those that are free thinkers......question their system, bring their system under scrutiny etc.

If we have ideas or opinions different from the programming, we cannot so easily be manipulated. So they must make it difficult for us to have strong opinions on anything....and certainly any ideas/thoughts/opinions which could cause their centuries old plan to fail......or be delayed.

So they introduce further mind programming to handle both people and ideas which threaten their NWO plan. They do this by attaching some kind of undesirable or anti-social label to the person or idea/thought/opinion which is not in synch or somehow threatens their plan.

Thus, thinking or even suspecting any idea which does not correspond with the _'official story' _(ie the way the _'government'_ says it is) will earn the label _'conspiracy theory'_.

There is such a taboo associated with owning that label (he's a nutter, lunatic etc) that the 'average' Joe will obviously do all they can to avoid having it applied to them or even their thinking.

So what happens? The _'government'_ puts out the _'official'_ explanation/line which is generally accepted as truth by the *SHEEP*le (because of the belief that our masters will ONLY do good) and if an alternative view surfaces (to the programming), the SHEEPle run a mile, close their eyes, close their ears and close their minds.

_"Oh, I don't go with those conspiracy theories!" _- immediately dismissed as lunacy because it dares to challlenge the _'official'_ line.

That's (in part) how it all works! As abhorrent as it seems, the *SHEEP*le are being mind controlled.........as part of the big plan.

Anyway, I went off on a tangent there........although it is entirely connected to the topic under discussion. Why?

Because what the public makes of what they're fed on the TV news of these protests (wouldn't imagine for a moment that they would actually go themselves!) has a bearing on how it all pans out.

That is why 'they' know it is so important to put out their propaganda of lies and deceit. Becuae they do need the co-operation of the people......and they can only have that if they keep the people comfortable with how they handle the situation.

That's why they would like to be broadcasting images of looting mobs, physical violence toward the Police, injured Policy-officers, wrecking of property and general mayhem.

Then they would get the nod from the people to go in and do what they so desperately want to do......break the whole thing up and get these people back in front of the propaganda/sedation box.


----------



## jimenato

It's amazing how you're still alive isn't it Malagueño? I mean seeing how you know so much and are making it all so public? You must be very clever.


----------



## Malagueño

Happyexpat said:


> Hang on a minute, comparing Spain to Libya, coppers 'scum', promoting civil unrest, not sure I like the way this is going...............Things can and are changed by peaceful demonstrations (which are nowadays usually hijacked by the thug element). No situation is ever solved by violence! It is solved when intelligent people sit around a table, with a will and a resolve to provide a lasting and just solution.


Hello Happyexpat,

The only ones _'promoting civil unrest'_ are those that wish to enslave the people. How have they promoted civil unrest? By allowing/causing all the reasons that the beautifully peaceful protests are being held to exist in the first place!

_"usually hijacked by the thug element_"??

I think you will find this _'thug element'_ (interesting how this is the exact phrase the media use to describe those seen on TV images _'causing trouble'_) is in fact the payrolled _'agente provacateurs' _ - the ones who *APPEAR* (on TV images and newspaper photos) to be part of the protest but are (shall we say) _'agents of the state' _sent in as actors (to be used in the propaganda to be fed to the public) as part of a strategy to give reason to (openly) adopt more forceful dispersion of the protest.

_"No situation is ever solved by violence". _......try telling that to the Segeant! 

If you read back through all the posts on this thread, the importance of non-violent, peaceful means has been emphasised repeatedly. In addition, have you not been watching the TV footage?

The protesters are extremely peaceful.....even handing out flowers (as a symbol of peace) to the NWO/Government policy-enforcement officers (also known as the Police).

And they have taken being pushed/dragged around and hit with batons by those cowardly, women-beating NWO policy-enforcement agents without retaliation.

_"It is solved when intelligent people sit around a table, *with a will and a resolve to provide a lasting and just solution*"._

That's just the point though; the _'government_' of thbis country and any other country does not have _"a will to provide a lasting and just solution"._

They have a will only to carry on implementing the NWO plan to enforce a _"lasting"_ and *unjust* system of global enslavement of the people.

But don't take my word for it..........check it all out for yourself!


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> Hang on a minute, comparing Spain to Libya, coppers 'scum', promoting civil unrest, not sure I like the way this is going.
> There is no way that any country in Europe can be compared to Libya and shouldn't be, it shows a complete lack of knowledge of the dire situation out there! As somebody, quite a few years ago admittedly, who has had to stand in front of a massive crowd of demonstrators, having bricks, fire bombs and bottles thrown at me I can tell you that there are two sides to every story.
> Things can and are changed by peaceful demonstrations (which are nowadays usually hijacked by the thug element). No situation is ever solved by violence! It is solved when intelligent people sit around a table, with a will and a resolve to provide a lasting and just solution.


Yes and wouldn't it be nice. But tell that to the woman who has to explain to her kids why they are hungry and why they should be grateful for lentils. To the 30 year old "labeled youth" who he/she has no job, no house and no prospects. Explain to them why their lives have been destroyed. 

There comes a time when talk and the system have failed. "We can do business with Herr Hitler" - I think not. 

I'd love the 'sitting around the table' to work but you need willing parties to do that. The people who should sit at the table on the elite ruling class side sadly are so deeply linked with corruption they know that any major change of power will lead to at best their exile and at worst many years in jail. Further Spain is in so deep without a redistribution of wealth there will be massive pain and suffering. Turkeys rarely vote for Christmas.

If I was Spanish, 30 years old, with no prospect of a job, a salary, a wife and kids, a home, ...... living with my parents in their rented flat living off their pension; waiting for them to die and wondering what happens then .... I'd say "convince me why I shouldn't be radical!" Can you?

As for Libya what is going on is a civil war to oust a dictator. And when the victory comes I believe Libya has a very good chance of building a state funded on its oil resources which will make Spain look sad. Slowly some of Africa is awakening and the old idea that Europeans are superior will soon be a distant memory. For me the joke is not comparing Spain to Libya, it is comparing Spain to Germany.

As for scum what would you call an armed battle dressed man hitting a wheelchair bound person with a batten?

But if I'm wrong and the round the table thing can work then there is a year to make it happen. But you can't expect Spaniards to wait longer.


----------



## Malagueño

jimenato,

You said _"It's amazing how you're still alive isn't it Malagueño? I mean seeing how you know so much and are making it all so public? You must be very clever"._

I sense a distinct resentment in your tone toward me.

I do understand - because it is very frightening when everything we've ever held to be true (programming/conditioning) is seriously challenged. It is the fear of suspecting that we have gone all through life under a great illusion that raises the anger/resentment. So your tone is excusable.

Everything I'm saying is widely available information....anybody can check it out for themselves.....if they're interested in truth. So no, it's not that I'm particularly clever.

Amazing how I'm still alive?

Not at all. Like I said, all this information is very widely available....it's not breaking news!

The reason they don't have to silence me or others like me is that they know the SHEEPle will have great difficulty believing that any of this is true because they have been so strongly programmed/conditioned with the lies and illusion.

So no real danger to their plans from the likes of me.

But from what you have said, it is obvious that you are entirely aware that _'they'_ do indeed murder people to keep them quiet and prevent them from possibly derailing the master plan.

The ones that get eliminated are those *exposers of truth* or reformers that might harm the big plan that the *SHEEP*le (a) will listen to or (b) are beginning to listen to.

You know.....people like John F Kennedy, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Dr David Kelly, Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald......oh, the list goes on and on.

(Apologies to the families of the thousands I have - for reasons of time, space and avoiding arguments - had to omit from this partial list)

But regardless of how much evidence exists, the *SHEEP*le just dismiss these murders as crazy _"conspiracy theories"_.

After all, it must be crazy because the 'government' would never lie to us!!


----------



## jimenato

Malagueño said:


> You know.....people like John F Kennedy, John Lennon, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Dr David Kelly, Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald......oh, the list goes on and on.
> 
> (Apologies to the families of the thousands I have - for reasons of time, space and avoiding arguments - had to omit from this partial list)
> 
> But regardless of how much evidence exists!


So what is the evidence that these people were killed by - what do you call these people?


----------



## jb44

jimenato said:


> So what is the evidence that these people were killed by - what do you call these people?


Personally I would call these people deceased


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## nigele2

jimenato said:


> So what is the evidence that these people were killed by - what do you call these people?


Malagueno I'm with Jimenato on this. You have identified a lot of well documented symptoms of 'something'. You appear to believe the 'something' is some orchestrated plot. I believe the 'something' is just man's plain simple greed for power and wealth mixed with a good showering of insanity.

There have been world order conspiracies for centuries. People like to identify an enemy. But there is no evidence any secret worldly plot has ever existed or indeed exists now. The nearest you get to a 'something' are religious and/or political groups. But even the largest of them tend to have temporary and geographically limited impact - thank god 

But interesting stuff none the less.

ps Cracked me up JB44


----------



## Malagueño

So you don't think there was anything remotely strange or suspicious about the murder (and the events surrounding) of JFK then?

No holes in the official _'story'_?

You think it was a watertight, straightforward case with no peculiarities?

Because of course, the _'government' _would never tell us a lie.!

Baaa, baaa, baaa!

Anyway.......

:focus:


----------



## Malagueño

nigele2,

I'm glad you're at least enjoying it.

But you say *"no evidence"????????????*

Faint.............


----------



## nigele2

Malagueño;530101 said:


> So you don't think there was anything remotely strange or suspicious about the murder (and the events surrounding) of JFK then?
> 
> No holes in the official _'story'_?
> 
> You think it was a watertight, straightforward case with no peculiarities?
> 
> Because of course, the _'government' _would never tell us a lie.!
> 
> Baaa, baaa, baaa!
> 
> Anyway.......
> 
> :focus:


No one said that. Just that a bit of organised assassination by a group of power brokers is not evidence of any organised global structure, desire or anything else.

Just research (as you're keen to tell others ) the thousands of conspiracy theories that have been proven to be rubbish


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## Malagueño

sigh


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## jimenato

Malagueño said:


> sigh


You're not actually that good at this CT trolling are you?


----------



## Alcalaina

Malagueño said:


> Wow!
> 
> gus-lopez and alcalaina....you really took me by surprise there. I was expecting to be kicked to death for my latest post!


Actually I was agreeing with Gus that people should fight back and not be pushed around - much as I would love to read and digest all your posts, there aren't enough hours in my day!


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## Malagueño

Alcalaina said:


> ...........much as I would love to read and digest all your posts, there aren't enough hours in my day!


My last two weren't that long........that should lower my average-words-per-post a little!


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## jimenato

They're revolting in Bristol too!!



> Spanish protesters set up camp in Bristol city centre


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## Happyexpat

Lets try and put this in perspective. I can agree that a minority of people with power and influence control the world, that is not difficult to see or understand. I can see that in many cases (not just Spain but the whole world), probably the majority, the system is corrupt, defunct and designed to benefit the minority at the expense of the majority. Of course money and religion is at the root of it all!

One thing I have trouble with is comments like 'armoured police officers beating a wheelchair bound person'. It may or may not have happened but in every walk of life there are bad apples and I can assure you that the vast majority of officers A: Don't want to be there in the first place, B: Don't agree with everything that is happening: C: Treat the situation with empathy and tact as much as possible, D: Use the minimum violence possible. As somebody once said "It is difficult to remember that the purpose of being in the swamp is to drain it when you are up to your arse in Alligators". Tempers get frayed, fear makes reactions different and confusion usually reigns.

The press on the other hand will make a play of any unwarranted or excessive action by the authorities so that it appears to be the norm. There is talk of being manipulated, well it works both ways. The sad fact is that we cannot really trust any news as it is presented / slanted / manipulated to provide sensation or to enhance some particular view or group be they anti or pro or even the view of the media itself!

A few years ago, as a radio amateur, I used to tap into the RTTY broadcasts from Routers which was used by all the news broadcasters. This was raw unscripted news. When the news was later shown on television it was often changed from the original transcript to provide a completely different slant. That is manipulation by the media not the Government. 

As for sheep and conspiracy theories the problem here is that a small group of complete 'nutters' have made conspiracy theories a joke, Roswell, moon landings, 911, Atlantis etc. I do not consider myself a sheep of either camp but rather as free thinking person capable of attempting to identify truth from bu^$it from either camp.

In the case of this particular 'discussion' I think that there are valid arguments from both sides, anarchy is the road to rack and ruin so it must be defended against. The present political systems stink so they probably need reforming / changing but to what? This is big question and I haven't seen any answers or even suggestions here, just support for anti establishment protests. Come up with a different workable long term solution and the argument for protest is valid. Until that is available it is not a reasonable action.

Just to provoke things a bit further, people don't protest much in bad weather. This year is probably (according to the MET office but what do they know) going to be a reasonable Summer right across Europe so protests will probably escalate. Most of the people involved will not have the first idea of what they are looking for or a solution which would be viable which is what makes it so sad. If you are joining the protests can you in truth answer this question?

At the end of the day the only thing which would work would be benevolent dictatorship with the world united behind it but that ain't gonna happen!


----------



## Malagueño

A fair and reasonable post........some good points.

But one point I just couldn't pass by:



Happyexpat said:


> As for sheep and conspiracy theories the problem here is that a small group of complete 'nutters' have made conspiracy theories a joke, Roswell, moon landings, *911*, Atlantis etc.


It is true that there are things out there that don't have strong evidence.....but 9/11 has got even more credible evidence than the JFK conspiracy to murder!

There is an absolute mountain of it......how anybody can look at the evidence with an open mind and not come to the conclusion that it was indeed _'an inside job' _is entirely and utterly beyond me!!

I think it is fair to say that many people do not consider the evidence as they would if they were sitting on the jury at a serious criminal trial....ie with an open mind as to whether the crime was committed according to how the available evidence would suggest.

I know for sure that - with the compelling evidence available, if it had been me who committed the cold-blooded murder and manslaughter of so many people, I would have been unanimously convicted.....and executed!


----------



## xabiaxica

Malagueño said:


> A fair and reasonable post........some good points.
> 
> But one point I just couldn't pass by:
> 
> 
> 
> It is true that tmuch here are things out there that don't have strong evidence.....but 9/11 has got even more credible evidence than the JFK conspiracy to murder.
> 
> There is an absolute mountain of it......how anybody can look at the evidence with an open mind and not come to the conclusion that it was indeed _'an inside job' _is entirely beyond me!!
> 
> I think it is fair to say that many people do not consider the evidence as they would if they were sitting on the jury at a serious criminal trial....ie with an open mind as to whether the crime was committed according tohow the available evidence would suggest.


this is straying too far from the topic

if you wish to discuss conspiracy theory, please start a new thread in La Tasca

any further off topic posts on this thread will be deleted


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## Malagueño

Fair enough, guv!


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> ............................This is big question and I haven't seen any answers or even suggestions here, just support for anti establishment protests. Come up with a different workable long term solution and the argument for protest is valid. Until that is available it is not a reasonable action.


Here is the full manifesto of Democracia Real Ya. 

Manifiesto - ¡Democracia Real YA!

This has been available for weeks! 

As for the tv the violence was shown on direct feeds - many not controlled by the media. The rubber bullets looked real enough to me. The guy in hospital according to his doctor has a collapsed lung. The policeman was said to feel suicidal. The blood looked real. Are you suggesting it is all faked? 

And lets not forget what this is about. Or are you saying the families with no jobs and no money are actors? Or that my step daughter has been lying about her treatment working in Spain and is not really unemployed and hasn't been told by the authorities to only call in every three months because there is no hope? And my unemployed family in the south are just lazy?

I agree one needs to be careful with information. One needs multiple sources over time. But even Zapatero and Rajoy admit it is serious and Zapatero has said he understands the demos. 

I do not consider myself an extremist. However there is a point when the time for non action is over. And that point has passed. Even if you blame most of the problems on Aznar you have to accept that Zapatero has had seven years. What has he achieved? What ideas does he have? And ask the same questions of Rajoy.

I appreciate you may not be personally involved in this and in Alicante things may not appear as bad as elsewhere but when you see the lives of the people you love being destroyed perhaps even you would agree the time for action has arrived.

I still hope of course that commonsense prevails and talks lead to changes and the corrupt volunteer their ill-gotten gains - but I'm not holding my breath and certainly will not stop the fight (pacifistic fight of course ) until there is change.


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## gus-lopez

Happyexpat. He's not using the 'minimum violence necessary ' is he ? If he wanted him to move he could have pushed him out the way. 
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g426/annfoto1/sytsew_27-5-2011_13aweb.jpg

I wouldn't have been able to pass that by !! It still enrages me now. Scum like that are using up air that would be more useful pumping up a bike tyre.


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## gus-lopez

Ok, try this one if you believe that the police are the goodies in this affair.






This comment states the best option .
" Spanish brothers, take cans of spray paint with you to the square and pass them through the crowd. Paint the helmet visors and the pigs will have to remove them to see....and be seen. Then all Spain can witness who these brutal Fascists are and they WILL be recognised on the internet. Vote up so all will read and act. "

Line marking paints the best . It's reflective & comes out horizontally from the can.


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## nigele2

gus-lopez said:


> Ok, try this one if you believe that the police are the goodies in this affair.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Indignats | Desallotjament de la Plaça Catalunya‬‏
> 
> This comment states the best option .
> " Spanish brothers, take cans of spray paint with you to the square and pass them through the crowd. Paint the helmet visors and the pigs will have to remove them to see....and be seen. Then all Spain can witness who these brutal Fascists are and they WILL be recognised on the internet. Vote up so all﻿ will read and act. "
> 
> Line marking paints the best . It's reflective & comes out horizontally from the can.


I'd like to say paint spraying is not the policy of 'Democracia Real Ya'

Something I do note having seen this and others is:

These thugs are not trained policeman. They act in an uncoordinated way. They show frustration at the individual level. They totally failed in their mission. They in fact flooded the plaza with thousands more protesters.

I felt very proud of the protesters. They held their ground. They recycled the injured as best they could. They are all heroes in my mind


----------



## Happyexpat

I think my comments have been taken the wrong way. I would never have condoned while I was a serving officer in the UK the actions shown and described, in fact I would have done something about it to ensure the officer was dealt with. I can also confidently say that the majority of currently serving officers everywhere would feel the same way. It is therefore reasonable to describe this person as scum but not to make it a generality.
As for the coments of Nigele2 I feel very sad for the suffering families here and all over Europe (we are not that well off ourselves I might add) and it does apply in Alicante. I have read the Manifesto which basically describes the problem, all of which anybody with any sense would have to generally agree with.
However the last point, which I guess is meant to be the solution, "We need an ethical revolution. Instead of placing money above human beings, we shall put it back to our service. We are people, not products. I am not a product of what I buy, why I buy and who I buy from." means diddly squat. It is not an answer its just a platitude. If anything the whole document bears a distinct likeness to the manifesto produced by Karl Marx and look what happened to that. In theory an excellent way of conducting society except for the human element.
The problem here is human beings and no matter what we do the situation of power and greed will arise. Remember the statement I used earlier, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Sorry to sound pessemistic but I suspect it will only be the faces in power that change not the methods or basics.
What is needed, and the point I keep making, is a real practical solution and that will only be achieved by thinking, practical people getting together with the will to work something new out not demonstrations. By the way I don't have a solution and can't think of one which would work so I am not pretending to be clever!


----------



## Malagueño

Yes.....who are these anonymous, weapon-wielding para-militaries at peaceful protests?

Who gives them their orders?

WHAT ARE THEY ACTUALLY THERE FOR?

To keep the peace?

To disperse or quell the protest?

Why do they wear para-military uniforms and full riot gear?

Why are they fully tooled up?

Is this appropriate?

Somebody breaks into your house while you and your family are sleeping - you catch them and do them a little damage.....you're in court facing jail time for using excessive force.

Why are these bullying payrolled thugs allowed to do as they please....and then get protected from any hope of prosecution?

And it's no good saying things are done in the heat of the moment.....they are supposed to be professional serving officers.....are they not?

If you going to completely lose your cool while fully tooled up, you're likely to use 'excessive force' and seriously injure somebody.

That's why people who go for a night out carrying a knife have little defence for intent.

Why are these thugs so heavily tooled up if they are at a clearly peaceful protest?

What is their intent?


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat I guess we are all here limited by the forum interface. I'm sure if we met we would find an enormous amount of common ground. And I guess your post shows that. 

I would offer that Democracia Real Ya is not just demonstrating. They are debating, listening, formulating. They are moving into lots of smaller locations. They are building a power base for change.

I think if they published some dreamed up policy statement they'd be treated like any other party. What they are trying to do is embrace the people with common goals: mainly fairness, transparency, responsibility and a total lack of corruption.

Clearly it is a major ask in a country where corruption is part of a failing legal system.

However this way they will get the people onside. And I guess if you acted out the policies of the left or the right under those rules you would see an incredible improvement although obviously not a perfect world 

Well we will see.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> Your dreaming ! A) They won't win , & B) there's hardly a spaniard around here that would ever support Barca.I'm not a Man U. fan but they're the lesser of two evils.


Well I hope you're feeling hungry Gus, coz you're gonna have to eat your words ...

CAMPEONES! :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Happyexpat

I think we obviously have a different perspective on things and probably need to agree on amicably disagreeing. It is an interesting point that has been raised as to whether the more repressive elements were actually police officers, I have no idea but behaviour suggests otherwise! 

However to comment on a few of the points raised....remember my perspective comes from the UK which has traditionally taken a, shall we say, more moderate approach until recently.
I can't comment on the first two points as I have no idea albeit a suspicion...
To keep the peace, well that has to be the overall principle.
To disperse the protest, same as above I guess, especially if it is turning violent.
Para military uniform because it is practical, riot gear to stop them getting hurt. We didn't have that advantage a few years ago and many of us did get hurt including me.
Fully tooled up and appropriate I guess would depend on the situation and the intelligence received about what was likely to happen.
They are not protected from prosecution as per the Met officer up for manslaughter last week.
You have, I suspect, never been in a serious riot situation trying to hold a line with no reserve or backup. Anybody who has or any person in the forces will tell you that fear and adrenaline will at some stage kick in and for the majority discipline and training will overcome instinct. For a small minority this unfortunately is not enough which is both their fault and the forces fault for not spotting their weakness?

The rest of the points made are, I think, covered by my comments as above. 

We should however remember that there is another side to this in that many of these "peaceful" protests are also attended by uninvited violent groups, often armed, often armoured to some extent and with their identities hidden. Their sole intention is anarchy and results in a heavier and more proactive police presence which unfortunately affects everybody.

As I said at start of this we cannot all agree on these things though it would probably be a saner world if we could. Hopefully we can at least agree that violence or anarchy on either side of an argument is a retrograde step where thoughtful discussion should produce a more meaningful result.

Oh, I watched the match this evening, were MU there or was it a team from the pub down the road, just asking?


----------



## thrax

It was Man U Wanderers


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> Well I hope you're feeling hungry Gus, coz you're gonna have to eat your words ...
> 
> CAMPEONES! :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


It wasn't good !!


----------



## helent.

I really like the chorizo phrase ;-)


----------



## Alcalaina

My OH was talking to a small group of _indignados_ this morning while I was at the dentist. He asked them what the next stage was, after the camps are dismantled and everyone goes home. They had no idea. The only thing they could say is that the experience has changed everybody.

We got the same response from people who went on the protest march about the cuts in London. As if just turning up and feeling strongly about something is going to bring about change.

Sadly, without organisation and leadership all this energy and strength is just going to fizzle out.


----------



## thrax

True to a point, but look at what has happened in some arabic countries and you could hardly call them organised, but they did bring about change - for the good? only history will tell us that, if it can


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## Happyexpat

This was the point I was trying make, without a plan, an idea, a proposition or even organisation willing and able to reorganise in the event of change any demo, violent or peaceful amounts to nothing. I agree with Thrax, we will have to wait and see what the Arab Spring does.......
I notice that many of the old leadership faces are still there which makes me wonder a bit!


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## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> This was the point I was trying make, without a plan, an idea, a proposition or even organisation willing and able to reorganise in the event of change any demo, violent or peaceful amounts to nothing. I agree with Thrax, we will have to wait and see what the Arab Spring does.......
> I notice that many of the old leadership faces are still there which makes me wonder a bit!


Democracia Real Ya are actively pursuing meetings in hundreds of locations throughout Spain. These are not one off but regular events. The membership drive, and thus the ability to mobilise and apply pressure, is ongoing.

The meetings are very well organised and Democracia Real Ya are listening to the issues of normal people. Ongoing policy and action is being decided on a democratic basis.

The organisation is extremely well organised and will not disappear after withdrawal from the city centres.

Personally I think not withdrawing from Sol yesterday was a mistake but am happy top go with the flow -= price of democracy


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## Happyexpat

I am sure, as you say, we would have a lot of thoughts and ideas in common but the forum interface is a limitation.
I'm afraid that while I admire idealistic ideas and there have been many since time began particularly Greek, to some extent Roman and of course we can't forget Karl Marx most of them end up in the trash bin one way or another. Unless Democracia Real Ya can improve on their Manifesto from idealistic thoughts to concrete 'nuts and bolts' proposals they will stay as a group for idealists. This is the turning point for many parties when the transition from theory to praticality either makes or breaks them. Many members will prefer to stay at idealistic stage because the real world wrecks many excellent theories.


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> . Unless Democracia Real Ya can improve on their Manifesto from idealistic thoughts to concrete 'nuts and bolts' proposals they will stay as a group for idealists.


I agree, but have a couple of things to say. 


The movement has various names, one of which is 15 M = the 15th of May ie they have been going for 2 weeks and 1 day. I don't know of any movement that has had such an effect on European society so quickly. Anybody know of anything similar?
It's really not up to 15 M/ Los Indignados/ Democracia Ya to "do" anything. They are coming up with ideas, and after 2 weeks are coming up with ways of putting them into action, but I don't think they see themselves as the having the means to "DO" at this point in time
I don't think you can really talk about they/ them because this group is supposed to be you, and if it isn't, if your views are not reflected, or you have a skill, an expert knowledge of smth that you can offer, you know where to go (See list of local groups in a previous post) 


It's true it may all fizzle out, but as I said before I think the seed of discontent has been sown and this will be reflected in politics on a wider level. After all, the general elections are barely a year away - if that


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## Happyexpat

Good point about if you have something to offer but, I'm afraid, activism especially with a group such as this appears to be at the moment is not my scene and never has been.
I think the key lies in your second paragraph, "its not really up to etc". If they want to be, or want a credible alternative and are not just stirring the pot it is certainly and morally up to them. Just shouting the odds won't do much at all except cause a lot of trouble and may be suffering


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> Good point about if you have something to offer but, I'm afraid, activism especially with a group such as this appears to be at the moment is not my scene and never has been.??????????????????????Why not?
> I think the key lies in your second paragraph, "its not really up to etc". If they want to be, or want a credible alternative and are not just stirring the pot it is certainly and morally up to them. Just shouting the odds won't do much at all except cause a lot of trouble and may be suffering Yes and no. _They _are not _they_. _They _are trying to be *you* As far as I see it "they" didn't set out to offer to be a political alternative. "They" are trying to show the politicians that they (the politicians) should be considering alternatives. In the end some of them may end up entering politics as this is the system that is in place and can't be expected to change overnight


Sorry if my interpretation isn't right, but you, and many others, seem to have made your mind up about this before it has started to happen (despite your signature) and without having enough information about it


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## Happyexpat

Hmmmmm
I don't think its a case of my mind being made up, its more a case of being far from convinced. Mind you, in fairness, I am far from convinced about the present systems, particularly banking and controls which really is at the root of all this anyway (see other threads and comments). 
For me, and from what you say many others, the alternative has to be credible, realistic, long term and not about just saying something is wrong. For me they have to say something is wrong, this is what is wrong and this is our concrete proposal to deal with it. Their current manifesto doesn't do that at all and, in my opinion, that should have been done first, well before taking to the streets. Credibility would have then been established, peoples support would have been retained and an end goal established. It may not be too late to do this if they are serious rather than just complaining.
I'm afraid I still have no idea of exactly what they want to see changed or how they would propose it be done either by them or others. This, I suggest, is the usual fundamental flaw found with all idealistic groups.
The other point that I have a niggling worry about is; As an expat living in Spain do I really have the right to actively interfere in the internal problems. They might affect me but, at the end of the day, I am a guest here unless I take out citizenship. It is said that a guest in a country should be like a child, seen but not heard. The contra argument to this could be that we are all Europeans and human beings but it still would concern me 
That doesn't mean that I don't wish them and others who would seek to improve things well, I do!

As for my signature, good point but the key is their my opinions formulated from 60 years experience with life and outside influences. They can be changed if something better is shown to me but unfortunately at the moment, it hasn't been.


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## Alcalaina

Happyexpat said:


> The other point that I have a niggling worry about is; As an expat living in Spain do I really have the right to actively interfere in the internal problems. They might affect me but, at the end of the day, I am a guest here unless I take out citizenship. It is said that a guest in a country should be like a child, seen but not heard. The contra argument to this could be that we are all Europeans and human beings but it still would concern me


I go with your contra argument: we are all Europeans.

The financial systems, multinational corporations etc which caused the crisis aren't constrained by national boundaries. Neither should we be, as citizens affected by their decisions.


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> Hmmmmm
> I don't think its a case of my mind being made up, its more a case of being far from convinced. Mind you, in fairness, I am far from convinced about the present systems, particularly banking and controls which really is at the root of all this anyway (see other threads and comments).
> For me, and from what you say many others, the alternative has to be credible, realistic, long term and not about just saying something is wrong. For me they have to say something is wrong, this is what is wrong and this is our concrete proposal to deal with it. Their current manifesto doesn't do that at all and, in my opinion, that should have been done first, well before taking to the streets. Credibility would have then been established, peoples support would have been retained and an end goal established. It may not be too late to do this if they are serious rather than just complaining.
> I'm afraid I still have no idea of exactly what they want to see changed or how they would propose it be done either by them or others. This, I suggest, is the usual fundamental flaw found with all idealistic groups.
> The other point that I have a niggling worry about is; As an expat living in Spain do I really have the right to actively interfere in the internal problems. They might affect me but, at the end of the day, I am a guest here unless I take out citizenship. It is said that a guest in a country should be like a child, seen but not heard. The contra argument to this could be that we are all Europeans and human beings but it still would concern me
> That doesn't mean that I don't wish them and others who would seek to improve things well, I do!
> 
> As for my signature, good point but the key is their my opinions formulated from 60 years experience with life and outside influences. They can be changed if something better is shown to me but unfortunately at the moment, it hasn't been.


Just to clarify a little...
I'm not saying I believe in/ back/ worship this movement 100% either, but I do think they are well worth listening to, and, saying the same thing in a different way, shouldn't be dismissed because they haven't got a mission statement or manifesto or flyers ready to hand out at the bus stops. They've been going for just over two weeks. If they can achieve the media coverage and support they've been given with a few SMSes, Tweets and posts on Facebook think what they could do with a bit of encouragement, money and support from people with experience. Like I say, not something to be ignored IMO.

I do understand what you mean about being an immigrant (well, you say expat), but the ideas are for everyone to ask about or to contribute to and as Alcalaina says I think many of the problems are European or world wide. If you don't want to, or don't feel able to take part I think it's understandable, but it's more difficult for us to form an opinion about something if we don't really know what's happening.


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## Happyexpat

*Food for thought*

Funny old world isn't it. This post I agree with fundamentally and in particular your last comment which has really made me think. Helen and I are members of a Compasa in the Morros a Cristiano feista in our local town and have been for 4 years. We joined becuase we wanted to understand and be part of the local culture and are the only English to have done so in our area. Now it seems to me that your last comment highlights the same point and, if you like, the same responsibility, not to be a parasite but rather to be a useful part of the infrastructure. I will look into this more, talk to people and try to understand the current Spanish political situation. I also agree with Alcalaina that this problem is not just about Spain, its worldwide and, unfortunately probably getting worse not better. Understanding the problem might lead to better informed discussion which might eventually even lead somebody to finding a solution.
This latest crisis with food, particularly in Andalucia, is going to cause even more problems to the local economy as if they haven't enough problems already.


Pesky Wesky said:


> Just to clarify a little...
> I'm not saying I believe in/ back/ worship this movement 100% either, but I do think they are well worth listening to, and, saying the same thing in a different way, shouldn't be dismissed because they haven't got a mission statement or manifesto or flyers ready to hand out at the bus stops. They've been going for just over two weeks. If they can achieve the media coverage and support they've been given with a few SMSes, Tweets and posts on Facebook think what they could do with a bit of encouragement, money and support from people with experience. Like I say, not something to be ignored IMO.
> 
> I do understand what you mean about being an immigrant (well, you say expat), but the ideas are for everyone to ask about or to contribute to and as Alcalaina says I think many of the problems are European or world wide. If you don't want to, or don't feel able to take part I think it's understandable, but it's more difficult for us to form an opinion about something if we don't really know what's happening.


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## Alcalaina

I am now following _Democracia Real Ya _on Facebook so I am getting updates on the various activities. It is clearly becoming an important international movement and gaining rather than losing momentum - very encouraging. Lots of activity across the country aimed at raising awareness. I love this one for sacked Telefonica employees:


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## Happyexpat

Hmmm, if the video is is designed to impress in some way it doesn't except for the fact it was peaceful and, in some way dignified. What did the activity achieve, I suspect not a lot?
Maybe I am too old for this, having witnessed, and yes unfortunately fought with, thousands of starving miners fighting to save their families, jobs and lifestyle and failing, only to see their union and pits destroyed, you must excuse me for being cynical about all this.
We, from my force, were often in the front line of the dispute. We were given 'doggy bags' of food to sustain us during the day. I can tell you that most of us used to carry them out to the front line and pass them out to the miners to try and help them. Not of course reported in any news as it wouldn't have been politically correct. This hopefully illustrates that many people, be they on the side of the establishment or the opposition, will have sympathy and empathy for those on the other side. It is from this type of attitude that we can get a result. Northern Ireland is probably the best recent example of this.
Industrial action and political protest, in the majority of cases, produces little of value, just temporary suffering and often more power to the Government. As I said in a previous post change must come from within, with a will to change. I think that will everywhere in Europe and elsewhere is maybe appearing so we can live in hope for the long term.
I am still trying to understand all this and there will be a longer post when I think I can comment with any sense. Today I have spoken to many people, most of them Spanish, most in an older age group, 40 plus, most Spanish. None of them, repeat none, have heard of the Democracia Real Ya and it would seem that most think that the only alternative is PPP. At the moment I therefore think that this may be a young persons thing based on internet, facebook and sms. Nothing wrong with that because the future lies with the young and good luck to them but maybe they would be wise to look at history a bit as it has a habit of repeating itself!


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## Alcalaina

Happyexpat said:


> Hmmm, if the video is is designed to impress in some way it doesn't except for the fact it was peaceful and, in some way dignified. What did the activity achieve, I suspect not a lot?
> Maybe I am too old for this, having witnessed, and yes unfortunately fought with, thousands of starving miners fighting to save their families, jobs and lifestyle and failing, only to see their union and pits destroyed, you must excuse me for being cynical about all this.
> We, from my force, were often in the front line of the dispute. We were given 'doggy bags' of food to sustain us during the day. I can tell you that most of us used to carry them out to the front line and pass them out to the miners to try and help them. Not of course reported in any news as it wouldn't have been politically correct. This hopefully illustrates that many people, be they on the side of the establishment or the opposition, will have sympathy and empathy for those on the other side. It is from this type of attitude that we can get a result. Northern Ireland is probably the best recent example of this.
> Industrial action and political protest, in the majority of cases, produces little of value, just temporary suffering and often more power to the Government. As I said in a previous post change must come from within, with a will to change. I think that will everywhere in Europe and elsewhere is maybe appearing so we can live in hope for the long term.
> I am still trying to understand all this and there will be a longer post when I think I can comment with any sense. Today I have spoken to many people, most of them Spanish, most in an older age group, 40 plus, most Spanish. None of them, repeat none, have heard of the Democracia Real Ya and it would seem that most think that the only alternative is PPP. At the moment I therefore think that this may be a young persons thing based on internet, facebook and sms. Nothing wrong with that because the future lies with the young and good luck to them but maybe they would be wise to look at history a bit as it has a habit of repeating itself!


As for the video, all FlashMob activities are designed to attract the attention of the general public. If the passers-by weren't previously aware of the fact that behind Telefonica's huge profits lies the debris of the lives of the people they made redundant, they might be now. And yes, peaceful dignity - no broken windows or yelling slogans.

Your account of the police giving food to the miners is heartwarming. I was involved in a support group with Welsh miners' wives during the 84-95 strike and nobody had a good word for the police, ever. Such is the danger of blind stereptyping.

You are right, the new movements are led by the younger generation and rightly so, it is their future at stake and they are the ones who must bring change. After observing the almost universal political apathy shown by young people in the UK from the 1980s until very recently (Thatcher's legacy?) it's good to see them starting to question the status quo and demand change.


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## Happyexpat

Actually I need to be a bit careful here. Our force, as were many others, were based in Nottinghamshire / Yorkshire. Since it was usually in particular only one force sent to assist in Wales (political I still beiieve) I am not at all surprised about the general reputation they had. When they were infrequently up with us we had similar problems both internally and externally.

I and many others realised at the time that the 'powers that be' knew that some forces would be more tolerant and have empathy' while a certain one could be relied upon to strongly and blindly provide enforcement of the Government policy. To be honest I am proud to have been one of the former not the latter both at the time and throughout my service. It is, in my opinion, better and more effective in the long term to have empathy and compassion than brutal power! I think this is still true today and many 'enforcers' world wide would do well to remember it and consider it in their planning and actions.


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## Happyexpat

This morning in the Daily Telegraph IPad edition I found an article the last paragraph of which was; _"Speaking after rejecting the latest government overture, Baba Ramdev said more than 10 million people will join his hunger strike. “We want to get rid of corruption and injustices happening in institutions and we want to make things fair," he said.
He wants tougher government action against those hiding “black money” in offshore accounts and stronger powers for an anti-corruption ombudsman."
I have never heard of Baba Ramdev though he seems to be a famous and very rich Indian Guru. It would seem to confirm that the protests are indeed worldwide and that some groups have planning and a network behind them which really does prove effective. Noticably he is not just saying something is wrong, he is specific about it and specific about what he wants changed and to what. I hope his campaign proves successful, he appears, according to the article to have already forced some changes so he does have track record. it is also interesting that his complaints are very similar to Democracia Real Ya......
Maybe this should also be posted in the Indian forum and cross linked, in fact it might be an idea if all threads on this subject from different regions and countries were cross linked so people could see an overall picture rather than an isolated one. Maybe one for the moderators!_


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> This morning in the Daily Telegraph IPad edition I found an article the last paragraph of which was; _"Speaking after rejecting the latest government overture, Baba Ramdev said more than 10 million people will join his hunger strike. “We want to get rid of corruption and injustices happening in institutions and we want to make things fair," he said.
> He wants tougher government action against those hiding “black money” in offshore accounts and stronger powers for an anti-corruption ombudsman."
> I have never heard of Baba Ramdev though he seems to be a famous and very rich Indian Guru. It would seem to confirm that the protests are indeed worldwide and that some groups have planning and a network behind them which really does prove effective. Noticably he is not just saying something is wrong, he is specific about it and specific about what he wants changed and to what. I hope his campaign proves successful, he appears, according to the article to have already forced some changes so he does have track record. it is also interesting that his complaints are very similar to Democracia Real Ya......
> Maybe this should also be posted in the Indian forum and cross linked, in fact it might be an idea if all threads on this subject from different regions and countries were cross linked so people could see an overall picture rather than an isolated one. Maybe one for the moderators!_


_

Happyexpat, first, I am amazed, as I'm sure you can imagine, that you have spoken to Spanish people aged 40 and above, who know nothing about this



I am still trying to understand all this and there will be a longer post when I think I can comment with any sense. Today I have spoken to many people, most of them Spanish, most in an older age group, 40 plus, most Spanish. None of them, repeat none, have heard of the Democracia Real Ya and it would seem that most think that the only alternative is PPP. At the moment I therefore think that this may be a young persons thing based on internet, facebook and sms. Nothing wrong with that because the future lies with the young and good luck to them but maybe they would be wise to look at history a bit as it has a habit of repeating itself!

Click to expand...

I find it truly extraordinary. It's not smth that's been reported in the Madrid press for a couple of days. It was worldwide front page news for a week, was on the tv and radio news, I think I even posted a link to the day's press ... I suppose we have an enormous capacity to block out things that we feel are not interesting, without going into it any further. I know I can watch a 10 minute commercial break and not tell you any more than a couple of cars were advertised with no more information having penetrated the grey matter as I'm just not interested in 99% 0f what's being sold on TV. But I have to say it again, extraordinary!

As for the Indian Guru - no, never heard of him, but might be an interesting development.

And being a policeman on picket lines during the miners strike must have been quite an experience. How on earth did you manage to sleep at night? I don't mean from a moral point of view, but just knowing what you were going to face everyday - insults, violence, possible injury, stress, freezing cold at times, (apart from any "feelings" you might have had about the whole situation) all just to do your job. I really can't imagine. Well, I don't expect an answer to that question. Not the time nor place to discuss these things perhaps, sorry. (But I do wonder what you thought about the film Billy Elliot??)_


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Happyexpat, first, I am amazed, as I'm sure you can imagine, that you have spoken to Spanish people aged 40 and above, who know nothing about this.


I'm not. There are older people where I live who don't know about it either. They don't have the internet, don't read the papers (other than the sports papers they see in the bar) and although they might have seen TV footage of Mossos with truncheons beating the **** out of kids in the Plaza de Catalunya. won't necessarily have bothered to find out what is going on.

I suspect much of rural Spain is like this. I've talked to lots of people in my village about the recent elections. Many of them vote for the party which has the candidates they like, regardless of the politics - or more disturbingly, they vote against someone they don't like. If someone did something detrimental to to them or a member of their family, regardless of how long ago, they won't vote for them. They are not politically apathetic, but personality is stronger than ideology.


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I'm not. There are older people where I live who don't know about it either. They don't have the internet, don't read the papers (other than the sports papers they see in the bar) and although they might have seen TV footage of Mossos with truncheons beating the **** out of kids in the Plaza de Catalunya. won't necessarily have bothered to find out what is going on.
> 
> I suspect much of rural Spain is like this. I've talked to lots of people in my village about the recent elections. Many of them vote for the party which has the candidates they like, regardless of the politics - or more disturbingly, they vote against someone they don't like. If someone did something detrimental to to them or a member of their family, regardless of how long ago, they won't vote for them. They are not politically apathetic, but personality is stronger than ideology.


Well, I continue to be amazed!!!!
OK, I realise I'm near the hub of all this and coverage is different, but I looked at local papers for Alicante. It's in there!
I can understand that if it was a one off it could pass you by, but not days and days.
Rural Spain is cut off and out of it if you want, but by the same token if you want to be informed you can be. 

As for local politics, the town where I live has grown crazily since we moved here. It has doubled in the last 10 years and now has more than 30,000 inhabitants. Not a small town, is it? But I knew 2 of the leading politicians and 1 minor, plus I knew _*of*_, not exactly that I know personally, the leaders of another two main parties because they are always involved somehow or other, even if it means leaving the PP to go to the PSOE or starting their own party. All of them had some defect from being totally unbelievable, to being totally incompetent, so I voted for someone I didn't know and of course that person didn't get in!


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## Happyexpat

A few points to elaborate on.
All the people I spoke to knew about the problems, they all knew about the demonstrations but had no idea who was trying to organise them or oppose the present situation. My bet is that if you asked the majority of people in the UK who were the organising groups, both violent and non violent, in the recent London problems very few would know or really care. Its the same here.
Much of what has been said about feelings etc when facing situations like riots is true. The 'fear' is while you are waiting for something to happen, when it does, training and adrenaline kick in for the majority of people and you work with and for your 'team'.
Of course I assume, every officer must think exactly as has been described by Malagueno but we knew exactly what it was all about, in fact the nickname we had for ourselves was Maggie's bully boys. We knew but as was said orders are orders we could either carry them out with as much empathy as possible, enforce them to the letter or get sacked. It must also be said that we made a lot of overtime out of it which, remember it was a recession came in very handy.
It funny I haven't really thought about it for years but doing so now I can remember the long periods of boredom, the sad sights, the cold weather, the ocassional excitement, a miner giving you a drink from his flask on a cold January day. It wasn't all bad on either side and the bits that were are probably best forgetten.
I actually don't really blame Maggie I blame that idiot Scargill. It was obvious from the start he wasn't going to be allowed to win and he should have quietly backed off, some pits might even have been saved that way. Certainly there would have been less suffering and less money spent. Hindsight what a great teacher she is!
As for common law, don't get me started on that.....for common law read common sense and common decency. It was all quite simple really, do something wrong to another person or property, get caught and that was that or should I say that the criminals day really started to deteriorate badly. We then invented the bl{#%{y two faced scheming solicitor who made more complicated laws with sneaky little 'get out of jail free cards' which only a solicitor could use. Look at the mess its in now and who is making loadsa dosh out of it all, oh yeh solicitors, what a surprise!


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## Happyexpat

There is something I want to add to last post, because basically its worrying me. Being a 'copper' can, at times, be dangerous but generally those times are infrequent, mostly its mundane. We used to have a saying, 'we are not paid for what we do but what we might have to do'.
Many of Our armed forces, and in this I include all NATO units from all countries are risking their lives on a daily basis and I mean really risking their lives. This is true bravery and I wouldn't wish to find myself compared with them.
This is not a comment on the rights or wrongs of the current engagements they are involved in nor do I want it to be but merely on their courage under very difficult, dangerous conditions just obeying orders and I understand what that means.


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## thrax

Happyexpat said:


> There is something I want to add to last post, because basically its worrying me. Being a 'copper' can, at times, be dangerous but generally those times are infrequent, mostly its mundane. We used to have a saying, 'we are not paid for what we do but what we might have to do'.
> Many of Our armed forces, and in this I include all NATO units from all countries are risking their lives on a daily basis and I mean really risking their lives. This is true bravery and I wouldn't wish to find myself compared with them.
> This is not a comment on the rights or wrongs of the current engagements they are involved in nor do I want it to be but merely on their courage under very difficult, dangerous conditions just obeying orders and I understand what that means.


Nothing wrong with this comment as far as I am concerned, especially having worked for nearly 30 years with military connections. But down here in the campo, most of the Spanish have absolutely no time for the government nor politics. They hate it and ignore it. And they find it very odd that British and German expats are interested in it.


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## Caz.I

thrax said:


> Nothing wrong with this comment as far as I am concerned, especially having worked for nearly 30 years with military connections. But down here in the campo, most of the Spanish have absolutely no time for the government nor politics. They hate it and ignore it. And they find it very odd that British and German expats are interested in it.


Well I am not sure that many British expats _are_ interested in it! But I think it is definitely a good thing that young people are trying to make their voices heard - there are too many passive youth who seem like they are totally dead inside. I know a lot of people don't "get it", but I think the 15-M movement is just a growing awareness of how things are and how much people want them to change. It's a pity that some dont take time to know what is going on - the whole point is that issues like corruption or unemployment affect people's daily life so ignoring it because it is "politics", doesnt make any sense, as they are likely to be suffering from one or more of these things.

Whilst I agree that ideas alone are not enough, the positive thing about this movement, is that it is a movement – or rather an awakening or awareness that a large body of people want to see a fundamental change in government and society. It doesnt seem to me to be a new alternative political party so much as a new political consciousness. What, when or if things will change, is impossible to say but we can only hope it is something that continues to grow (whether it takes months or years) until it cannot be ignored.

Real change comes about slowly, unlike superficial political change, and the dialogues do have some relevance if action can be applied within the individual lives of each person. A change in the heart of people can move mountains.
In fact, I think one of the essential points of this movement is that society belongs to the people not the government, so to wait for “somebody” to come up with “something” concrete will be an endless waiting game – certainly as long as the two main parties continue to function as they do IMO. It would probably be a series of measures together with a fundamental change of attitude in the minds of individuals that would seriously change things.


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## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> Well I am not sure that many British expats _are_ interested in it! But I think it is definitely a good thing that young people are trying to make their voices heard - there are too many passive youth who seem like they are totally dead inside. I know a lot of people don't "get it", but I think the 15-M movement is just a growing awareness of how things are and how much people want them to change. It's a pity that some dont take time to know what is going on - the whole point is that issues like corruption or unemployment affect people's daily life so ignoring it because it is "politics", doesnt make any sense, as they are likely to be suffering from one or more of these things.
> 
> Whilst I agree that ideas alone are not enough, the positive thing about this movement, is that it is a movement – or rather an awakening or awareness that a large body of people want to see a fundamental change in government and society. It doesnt seem to me to be a new alternative political party so much as a new political consciousness. What, when or if things will change, is impossible to say but we can only hope it is something that continues to grow (whether it takes months or years) until it cannot be ignored.
> 
> Real change comes about slowly, unlike superficial political change, and the dialogues do have some relevance if action can be applied within the individual lives of each person. A change in the heart of people can move mountains.
> In fact, I think one of the essential points of this movement is that society belongs to the people not the government, so to wait for “somebody” to come up with “something” concrete will be an endless waiting game – certainly as long as the two main parties continue to function as they do IMO. It would probably be a series of measures together with a fundamental change of attitude in the minds of individuals that would seriously change things.


Everything I've been trying to say in one simple post. 

Bravo!!


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## Happyexpat

I completely agree with Thrax, that is the overall impression I am getting after talking to people of all ages over the last few days. I'm not too sure that it only applies to 'campo' Spain, I suspect that it is universal across Europe, people have just basically reached the stage of 'why bother, nothing changes'. Apathy has always ruled with a voracious minority actually making the running while the sheep follow or just carry on as before.
For those wishing to develop new parties it is going to be a real uphill struggle whatever country they are in as could be seen years ago with the sdlp which failed miserably even with big names and funding. 
I guess what I am saying is that I think, for all the current noise and discussion, that Democracia Real Ya will just be a short term agitating group getting reducing exposure with little lasting effect and nothing more. It is a "young perdons" party and this is a good thing and I would hope that the ethos of its your world take control of it would be effective, I just can't see it happening, certainly in my lifetime.
Anyway I think we may be on the wrong track with the fundamental problem, its probably not actually politics itself but the financial institutions and systems causing the problems. If you rule out a benevolent dictatorship as it is impossible the only practical alternative as shown throughout history is democracy and that is what we have, in theory, already got. We maybe should remember that it is our money the governement and financial institutions are using and if they didn't have it they would have to rapidly rethink their ethos, ethics and operating methods. It actually would only take a very short time for this sort of action to have an effect. The trouble would be getting support for it.


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## Happyexpat

I was very careful in my post to put
"This is not a comment on the rights or wrongs of the current engagements they are involved in nor do I want it to be but merely on their courage under very difficult, dangerous conditions just obeying orders" 
The rights or wrongs of any dispute / intervention / aggression or defence are always open to argument and disagreement. I would suggest that they are not part of this thread and shouldn't be. If a discussion is wanted then I am quite happy to join a new thread. My comments on the people ordered to risk their lives however still stands as a simple non complicated or political comment on their bravery whether the cause or organisation is believed to be right or wrong.


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## xabiaxica

I don't want to close this important & interesting thread

neither do I want to have to constantly wade through waffly off topic posts which eventually descend almost to playground level name calling


I have said it before - if you want to discuss conspiracy theory or whatever - then start a thread in La Tasca where you will find posters from the Spanish forum, or The Expat Forum Lounge where you will find expats who live all over the world


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## Happyexpat

Xabiachica, firstly thank you for the intervention. I didn't see the deleted posts but it is important to keep a thread on track and it is a difficult job you do which people should appreciate. I can however see, where people feel strongly about something, how easy it is to go off thread which is why unbiased moderateration is so important.

On the subject we were discussing I would like to put up a hypothetical question.
It is is said that the Spanish have over reacted to the recent and ongoing demonstrations. This may in general be right or may be wrong though I do sincerely accept that some individuals have certainly over reacted for reasons discussed earlier in the thread.
In theory a legitimate elected (key words) government anywhere has a duty of care to its citizens. This includes maintaining the status quo they were elected under. Again in theory if what the government is doing is against the majority wishes as evidenced by petitions, peaceful demonstrations, party activists and the press it will usually (if it has any sense) change course. An example of this would be the poll tax of Maggies era which was retracted and the prime cause of her downfall. If however, using that example the demonstrations had been generally violent rather than, as they were, generally peaceful. If the demonstrators had generally been armed, were generally attacking property does the Government have the right and mandate to react with similar 'reasonable' force to quell what by then is a riot.
We are looking at world which is in turmoil at the moment almost everywhere, discontented people, disenfranchised people and,in many cases, a severe lowering of living standards. I believe that the current unrest in some countries of Europe, Greece, Spain and yes even the UK will unfortunately spread across as the Summer and cuts progress. How far does any Government go to protect its elected and mandated position before submitting to mob rule? We should always remember in this that almost any demonstration is composed of a very small minority of the electing population, the majority of people, rightly or wrongly are apathetic or believe in what the elected Government is doing.
The question is difficult for us to answer and almost impossible for any Government as they will be "damned if they do and damned if they don't".
By the way I am unsure of the answer to this hence looking for comments.
It does however bring us neatly back to an earlier point. Any protest of whatever form must, to be valid, offer an alternative, a solution or areas for investigation and discussion, both sides then have an exit point to go forward. The current protests in Greece, Spain and the UK don't do this, they just say they don't like what is happening. Democracia Real Ya is a prime example making the point that it represents the people, it is the people and it has empathy. I would suggest that every party actually says the same thing, especially in its formation.
By the way, this isn't all doom and gloom, I think it is going to be a very difficult year but we will come out of it, hopefully in a better position than before. This is especially true if somebody deals with the banking situation which I think they will as there seems to be a slowly increasing determination to do so.


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## Alcalaina

Happyexpat said:


> Any protest of whatever form must, to be valid, offer an alternative, a solution or areas for investigation and discussion, both sides then have an exit point to go forward. The current protests in Greece, Spain and the UK don't do this, they just say they don't like what is happening.


Not so. DRY has very clear proposals for change: they cover not only the democratic process but employment, housing, social welfare, public services and regulation of financial services:

Propuestas - ¡Democracia Real YA!


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## Happyexpat

Thank you Alcalaina I completely, without reservation, take back my comment! It wasn't however there when I looked a short while ago so they are progressing and quite rapidly which is also a good sign. As an 'all inclusive party' it would now be nice to see the proposals in Multi language as is their manifesto. 
Good luck to them, their proposals, in the main, make a lot of sense. Whether they are realistically acheivable I am not so sure but I hope so.


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## Sonrisa

Alcalaina said:


> Not so. DRY has very clear proposals for change: they cover not only the democratic process but employment, housing, social welfare, public services and regulation of financial services:
> 
> Propuestas - ¡Democracia Real YA!


Thanks Alca, for putting this thread back on track, I must admit I had grown bored with it and given up at any attempt of discussion about the movement with the members of this forum. 

I feel really positive about many of the proposals. I have my doubts about how some of them can be achieved, like the ones that relate to housing, they are very vague and beg the question, who is going to pay for these? Some of them I don't understand, like "eliminacion the SICAV" why is that? 

I dont' feel that Spain should be spending less money in military. 

I definetely would like to see many more bicycle lanes, Dublin style. 

Overall they have my full support, that's why I'll be joining soon. 


YouTube - ‪#nolesvotes # Spanishrevolution Participatory Democracy Proposal‬‏


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## Pesky Wesky

Sonrisa said:


> Thanks Alca, for putting this thread back on track, I must admit I had grown bored with it and given up at any attempt of discussion about the movement with the members of this forum.
> 
> I feel really positive about many of the proposals. I have my doubts about how some of them can be achieved, like the ones that relate to housing, they are very vague and beg the question, who is going to pay for these? Some of them I don't understand, like "eliminacion the SICAV" why is that?
> 
> I dont' feel that Spain should be spending less money in military.
> 
> I definetely would like to see many more bicycle lanes, Dublin style.
> 
> Overall they have my full support, that's why I'll be joining soon.
> 
> 
> YouTube - ‪#nolesvotes # Spanishrevolution Participatory Democracy Proposal‬‏


I also got fed up of trying to put this thread back on track, but I see xabia's been tidying up. Today I mosied on down to the plaza in my town to see what was up as I'd been away the weekend before, and surprise surprise, there were a group of people talking stuff over. It was noted that there weren't too many of us, about 100 from a town of 30,000, and very few immigrants from a town with a high immigrant population, but something is better than nothing.
They/ we were still at the stage of how to organize stuff and what to discuss - what to give priority to, but as someone said, slow doesn't necessarily mean bad. I left before the end, but will be in touch with people I knew there to see what's happening. There was a very good mix of ages with plenty of young and old involved. 
At the moment there's a meeting every week to keep visibility high, immigrant groups will be contacted to see if they can difuse the message and hopefully encourage participation.
I'm a little confused as to what is going to be discussed where. The idea of these groups is to focus on your own environment. This group seemed to saying that we discuss stuff and then transmit "the wishes of the people" as it were, to the town hall. So, as I had said before on previous posts, the idea is not that these groups are putting the decisions into practise, but are areas where discussion can take place and this is then transmitted to those that are in power - at least that's the idea for now. In the future the system/ structure may change, but for the moment you have to go with the political system that's in place.
So, who's discussing the wider issues in the proposals? The people in Sol I suppose.

All in all, I feel it's still moving and still going places...

PS This is the SICAV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SICAV


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## Alcalaina

Article in today's paper examining how many of DRY's proposals are already in force in other countries:

21 ideas inspiradas en el 15-M - Público.es


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Article in today's paper examining how many of DRY's proposals are already in force in other countries:
> 
> 21 ideas inspiradas en el 15-M - Público.es


Looks really interesting. Will digest later over tea and bicuits.


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## mrypg9

People power will not bring about changes by itself.. As someone said earlier, leadership and organisation are needed. 
The root of the problem is that over the past couple of decades a particular school of economic thought has been influential in determining the policies of the governments of the world's leading nations. The 'free market' 'neo-con' call it what you will philosophy of deregulation, privatisation of state assets, cuts in public spending and above all the total freedom and hegemony of the global financial markets has reduced the power of national governments to determine policy within their own national frontiers.
Democratically elected Governments that want to tackle the problems of unemployment by any kind of Keynesian approach, however mild and timid, find themselves attacked by the money markets who pressure the yields on sovereign bonds to unsustainable levels.
As I said earlier, neither Zapatero or Rajoy can unilaterally tackle Spain's problems. Neither can the governments of Greece, Portugal or Ireland tackle theirs alone..
No one country can act alone to insigate the re- regulation of the global financial system which is now more powerful than elected governments.
There are indications that the need for concerted global action is slowly dawning on our 'leaders'.
If I were a billionaire I would pay for a copy of John Gray's 'False Dawn: the illusion of global capitalism' to be translated into every known language and to be distributed to every person in the world over the age of eighteen.
It can however be purchased on amazon.uk for a few £.
No conspiracy theories or other nutty meanderings.....just says it like it is.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Not so. DRY has very clear proposals for change: they cover not only the democratic process but employment, housing, social welfare, public services and regulation of financial services:
> 
> Propuestas - ¡Democracia Real YA!


The proposals listed are on the whole desireable. Many deal with internal constitutional and political reforms which although sound (mainly) will not in themselves tackle the larger causes of the crisis which has affected not only Spain but as we know Greece, ROI, Portugal and the UK.
Spain's problems are not unique to Spain. Neither have they been caused by Zapatero's Government. 
Changing a voting system, instituting mechanisms for referenda and recalls will do nothing to weaken the power of the financial institutions whose approval dictates the economic policies of most of the world's governments.
People power can change the policies of governments if such change lies within the scope and power of the national government -as with the Ciivil Rights Bill in the U.S. 
It cannot compel governments to do what lies beyond their power.
Like thousands of others I marched and organised against nuclear weapons.
I recognise now though that it was largely economic factors which lead Reagan and Gorbachev to the negotiating table in Iceland.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> .
> I guess what I am saying is that I think, for all the current noise and discussion, that Democracia Real Ya will just be a short term agitating group getting reducing exposure with little lasting effect and nothing more. It is a "young perdons" party and this is a good thing and I would hope that the ethos of its your world take control of it would be effective, I just can't see it happening, certainly in my lifetime.
> *Anyway I think we may be on the wrong track with the fundamental problem, its probably not actually politics itself but the financial institutions and systems causing the problems..*


Exactly.


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## Happyexpat

I think this is exactly what I have been trying to say, probably badly. People power and laudable ideas don't cut the ice and they won't until the fundamental probldm is addressed. The fundamental problem is greed and the financial systems. In this we have to include energy in its many forms. Governments are restrained in their actions by the need to obtain energy from other countries. The financial organisations put pressure on the Government to protect their position, long and short term. Its a viscious circle for any Government especially when taking into consideration restraints placed upon them from The EEC. On the whole I agree with mrypg9, "There are indications that the need for concerted global action is slowly dawning on our 'leaders'". I think it is happening but, in my opinion far too slowly and we risk another recession if it is not speeded up.


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> I think this is exactly what I have been trying to say, probably badly. People power and laudable ideas don't cut the ice and they won't until the fundamental probldm is addressed. The fundamental problem is greed and the financial systems. In this we have to include energy in its many forms. Governments are restrained in their actions by the need to obtain energy from other countries. The financial organisations put pressure on the Government to protect their position, long and short term. Its a viscious circle for any Government especially when taking into consideration restraints placed upon them from The EEC. On the whole I agree with mrypg9, "There are indications that the need for concerted global action is slowly dawning on our 'leaders'". I think it is happening but, in my opinion far too slowly and we risk another recession if it is not speeded up.


I don't think anybody is disagreeing with this. 

The problem is where to start? Starting at the top is more difficult, especially if you're a mileurista (somebody who earns around 1000 euros) in Italy or an unemployed builder in Spain. What can you do? Moan and groan and stay at home, or try to do something with the people you've got near you, about the corruption and banking in your environment? 

I also totally agree about the energy- nuclear, oil etc. Why is solar power not developed? Because of the politics behind energy. The whole political map would be turned upside down if solar power were allowed to develop.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> People power will not bring about changes by itself.. As someone said earlier, leadership and organisation are needed.
> The root of the problem is that over the past couple of decades a particular school of economic thought has been influential in determining the policies of the governments of the world's leading nations. The 'free market' 'neo-con' call it what you will philosophy of deregulation, privatisation of state assets, cuts in public spending and above all the total freedom and hegemony of the global financial markets has reduced the power of national governments to determine policy within their own national frontiers.
> Democratically elected Governments that want to tackle the problems of unemployment by any kind of Keynesian approach, however mild and timid, find themselves attacked by the money markets who pressure the yields on sovereign bonds to unsustainable levels.
> As I said earlier, neither Zapatero or Rajoy can unilaterally tackle Spain's problems. Neither can the governments of Greece, Portugal or Ireland tackle theirs alone..
> No one country can act alone to insigate the re- regulation of the global financial system which is now more powerful than elected governments.
> There are indications that the need for concerted global action is slowly dawning on our 'leaders'.
> If I were a billionaire I would pay for a copy of John Gray's 'False Dawn: the illusion of global capitalism' to be translated into every known language and to be distributed to every person in the world over the age of eighteen.
> It can however be purchased on amazon.uk for a few £.
> No conspiracy theories or other nutty meanderings.....just says it like it is.


As I said to Happyexpat, I don't think anyone is disputing this.
But if a bunch of youngsters had set up camp in Sol and said "OK, we are going to change the world's financial systems" do you really think they would still be there? That there would be groups in every major town in Spain? That there would be similar movements set up in Greece, the UK etc etc? They would have been laughed out of the plaza, and they haven't been. On the contrary, the politicians are keeping their ears to the ground to see what's going on.
They know where the problems lie. They are young, not stupid. But they are doing what they can, which so far is to set people thinking, questioning and talking which is no mean feat. 
As you say global action is needed. It might still come and this movement will probably help it on its way even if it fizzles out after 6 months.


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## Happyexpat

*Energy*

I think, as you say, we are in almost total agreement.
One concern I do have on the energy subject is wind turbines, to me it seems logically viable and yet a recent investigation in the UK (can't remember who carried it out) came to the conclusion that wind turbines were not viable. The same has been said for wave generation and in Spain for solar (very surprising considering the amount of sunshine). Now it would seem to me that we come neatly round to the 'fundamental' point which keeps re-occuring. Governments try put in effect new policies. these policies affect financial people who react by attempting to 'trash' them. The news reports the so called investigations and we, the public, end up not knowing what the heck is right or wrong. Hopefully, like us on this thread, we attempt, by talking to other people, to sort the chaff from the wheat but I have a suspicion that the apathetic majority just let it all pass by.
The same is true of current financial difficulties which of course includes jobs, growth etc. On the one hand we are told that the IMF, OCD, EEC all agree with the measures the UK and Spain are putting in place and yet we keep hearing that they are dangerous, shouldn't be done , cause to much suffering and will bring about another recession. My feeling on this is, having unfortunately been through 4 recessions, 'no pain, no gain'.
Some bits of news either don't appear or are lost very rapidly. One bit that struck me, for the short time it was mentioned, is that Spain's deficit is far lower than the UK's in terms of percentage of GDP (if that is right of course). Surely that would place Spain in a better position for recovery than the UK not the other way round.
Either way this is a Global problem and it would be interesting to try and involve people from other countries on this forum in this discussion which might lead to a better understanding for all of us. 


Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think anybody is disagreeing with this.
> 
> The problem is where to start? Starting at the top is more difficult, especially if you're a mileurista (somebody who earns around 1000 euros) in Italy or an unemployed builder in Spain. What can you do? Moan and groan and stay at home, or try to do something with the people you've got near you, about the corruption and banking in your environment?
> 
> I also totally agree about the energy- nuclear, oil etc. Why is solar power not developed? Because of the politics behind energy. The whole political map would be turned upside down if solar power were allowed to develop.


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## mrypg9

The villains of the piece are the transnational organisations such as the World Bank, the IMF, the World Trade Organisation and the OECD which should operate on behalf of all the sovereign states whose interests they should serve but which operate in the perceived interests of the United States which in spite of all evidence of its unsuitability persist in pushing the so-called Washington Consensus model of free markets and liberal democracy - the 'one size fits all ' model applied from Poland to Afghanistan to Iraq.
We have to recognise that global free trade and the world-wide mobility of capital combine to to make it hard for individual states to operate Keynesian policies to stimulate the economy and increase employment which Governments have in the past relied on.
Global free trade in particular makes reregulation and the fiscal costs of socially-responsible capitalism harder to support. Europe's remaining social market economies are under unremitting pressure from global market forces.
The only solution is to break this domination of an ineffective and dangerous economic theory...the neo-liberal, neo-con, laissez-faire... call it whatever you like failed philosophy and give back control of their economies to nation states and their electorates.
Public protests and so on are useful in that they put pressure on democratic governments but will in themselves achieve nothing unless there is a basic understanding of how our current system works and why it must be changed. State Governments must act in coordination to change the policies of these global institutions to which the world's workers and tax-payers contribute.
Unilateral action will not be effective against the markets.
I may be an optimist but I believe that the European Union,even with all its current difficulties, can act for change to save its social market economies. Socialism is dead...killed by its own ineffectiveness wherever it has been practised and by unstoppable technological change. Most people who call themselves socialists are in fact social democrats favouring a mixed socially-responsible economy on the German model.
There are several different varieties of capitalism each with its roots in national cultures: the Japanese model, the European model, the Chinese model, the Russian model...even now the Cuban model!
The Anglo-Saxon U.S. led model is not the only kind on offer.


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## Malagueño

_"The villains of the piece are the transnational organisations such as the World Bank, the IMF, the World Trade Organisation and the OECD which should operate on behalf of all the sovereign states whose interests they should serve but ..................give back control of their economies to nation states and their electorates...........achieve nothing unless there is a basic understanding of how our current system works.......Unilateral action will not be effective against the markets".

*YOU'RE GETTING WARM!!*_


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## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think anybody is disagreeing with this.
> 
> The problem is where to start? Starting at the top is more difficult, especially if you're a mileurista (somebody who earns around 1000 euros) in Italy or an unemployed builder in Spain. What can you do? Moan and groan and stay at home, or try to do something with the people you've got near you, about the corruption and banking in your environment?
> 
> I also totally agree about the energy- nuclear, oil etc. Why is solar power not developed? Because of the politics behind energy. The whole political map would be turned upside down if solar power were allowed to develop.


What makes you think that solar power is not being allowed to develop? 











Gemasolar Power Plant The world's first solar power station that generates electricity at NIGHT | Mail Online


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## Alcalaina

We went to a meeting to set up a local DRY group last night. About 25 people, mostly in their 30s and 40s. I doubt we will set up camp in the Alameda but I think we will be _tomando la calle _ for the international demonstration on 19 June.

Inicio - ¡Democracia Real YA!
Democracia real YA | Facebook


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## Happyexpat

I didn't say it wasn't being developed, it most definitely is, as is wind generation. There are however, as usual, voices being raised against it.


jimenato said:


> What makes you think that solar power is not being allowed to develop?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gemasolar Power Plant The world's first solar power station that generates electricity at NIGHT | Mail Online


----------



## jimenato

Happyexpat said:


> I didn't say it wasn't being developed, it most definitely is, as is wind generation. There are however, as usual, voices being raised against it.


No - it was Pesky. I'd say that if development of solar is going slowly it's down to technical and financial issues rather than it 'not being allowed'.


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> What makes you think that solar power is not being allowed to develop?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gemasolar Power Plant The world's first solar power station that generates electricity at NIGHT | Mail Online


Yes, great picture Jimenato. In fact I didn't wish to imply there was NO development or investment into solar power as I obviously know about this and other projects. 

The photo you posted is of a place near the city of Sevilla. In this thread
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/72119-alternative-power-9.html#post472070
I posted a video about this solar plant on the 6th March 2011, and you participated on that thread Jimenato. This is a copy of the post.



> Here's smth which I found by accident just now, and which I found very interesting, mainly because they're saying exactly what I've been saying in this thread!!
> 
> If it's too long for you or too boring just go to minute 10:15 and listen to what this man says until the end of the clip.
> Video: Spain's solar towers light the way to a brighter, cleaner future | Science | guardian.co.uk
> PS Unfortunately, while it's true that the government did initially invest heavily in solar power, they have reneged on the feeding tariffs that were initially negotiated and they are not so favourable towards solar power now. I know because the bank I work with is the main provider of loans to solar farms in Spain/ Europe


. 

Hope you find the time to watch it this time. Other important points from the video are that all energy sources are subsidised by governments for consumers, so to say that prices between more traditional energy sources and solar power are unfavourable are not always accurate. Another argument against solar power is that the infrastrucure isn't there. Well of course it isn't, just as it wasn't for the oil industry in the beginning.

What I wanted to say before was that not enough is being done to develop this energy source. According to the experts in this video (and others) the technology is there but the backing isn't. And why isn't the backing there???

Anyway, if you want to carry on talking about solar energy I suggest you do a search for solar/ alternative energy as there are some threads already open and they could be continued. After all, this is supposed to be about 15 M.
I would be interested to know what you think about it. I don't remember reading why you think solar energy isn't being developed, bearing in mind that the people in the video say the technology is here and it's the politics which are holding things back...


----------



## Happyexpat

I think you are right, this thread needs splitting off but here is my answer (without conspiracy theries). If the financial sector, as it stands has the futures market in oil, gas, nuclear, even coal then it isn't going to be to keen at this time to see alternative energy taking over. I agree it isn't about technology, though the storage (battery) situation is still marginal. The financial market blows with the wind (excuse the pun) and if it is seen that alternative energy is really going to take off then the market will eventually be there and the Governments will get support, if not they won't.

Just to draw this back to the main thread, I, this morning, saw some of the people I had asked about DRY a few days ago. Surprisingly our conversation had stirred something and the majority of them had looked at the site or spoken with others who knew something about it. They were not dismissive of the aims of the 'party' in fact they were very pro albeit sceptical about its chances. One worrying thing that was said by a few of them was "It looks good but I won't vote for them, its PPP we need to get in". Sounds a bit like people with the Liberal party in the UK doesn't it, good ideas, nice people but why waste a vote....Having said that they seem to be making rapid progress and the conditions are right for change so maybe, just maybe!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> I think you are right, this thread needs splitting off but here is my answer (without conspiracy theries). If the financial sector, as it stands has the futures market in oil, gas, nuclear, even coal then it isn't going to be to keen at this time to see alternative energy taking over. I agree it isn't about technology, though the storage (battery) situation is still marginal. The financial market blows with the wind (excuse the pun) and if it is seen that alternative energy is really going to take off then the market will eventually be there and the Governments will get support, if not they won't.
> 
> Just to draw this back to the main thread, I, this morning, saw some of the people I had asked about DRY a few days ago. Surprisingly our conversation had stirred something and the majority of them had looked at the site or spoken with others who knew something about it. They were not dismissive of the aims of the 'party' in fact they were very pro albeit sceptical about its chances. One worrying thing that was said by a few of them was "It looks good but I won't vote for them, its PPP we need to get in". Sounds a bit like people with the Liberal party in the UK doesn't it, good ideas, nice people but why waste a vote....Having said that they seem to be making rapid progress and the conditions are right for change so maybe, just maybe!


Yes, I think that's what many people are saying. There's one fundamental mistake with that though. They are not at this moment a political party, nor do they wish to be for now!!
BTW, by the PPP do you mean the PP - maybe the extra P is for "Poncy" or smth similar?

Going back to Sol...
As to be expected not all is rosy in the Plaza...
¿Acampados u okupas?
dom, 5 jun 2011 


Dicen que son los okupas de Sol, se han instalado con sus tiendas fijas al fondo del campamento. Viven ajenos a las asambleas y al trabajo en la mini ciudad y empiezan a generar problemas de convivencia. La comisión de respeto trabaja por impedir que se produzcan conatos de violencia. La opinión en torno a ... Campers or squatters?
 
Sun, June 5, 2011 

They say they are the squatters in Sol. They have installesd themselves with fixed tents in the background of the camp. They are living outside the assemblies and work in the mini city and beginning to cause problems of coexistence. The compliance committee works to prevent the occurrence of outbreaks of violence. The opinion about ...

Here's the link ¿Acampados u okupas?


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## mrypg9

Malagueño said:


> _"The villains of the piece are the transnational organisations such as the World Bank, the IMF, the World Trade Organisation and the OECD which should operate on behalf of all the sovereign states whose interests they should serve but ..................give back control of their economies to nation states and their electorates...........achieve nothing unless there is a basic understanding of how our current system works.......Unilateral action will not be effective against the markets".
> 
> *YOU'RE GETTING WARM!!*_


_

Well, I've not got to the Freemasons and international Jewry yet.
Or David Icke.
Or the honey monster.
Sorry._


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I've not got to the Freemasons and international Jewry yet.
> Or David Icke.
> Or the honey monster.
> Sorry.


oh please NO


PLEASE don't go the conspiracy theory route - unless someone starts a new thread


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## Alcalaina

If anyone is interested in a conspiracy theory-free analysis of the role of the IMF, World Bank etc in Europe and the threat it holds for us all, there is a good one (in English) on the Democracia Real Ya Facebook page here:

What do they sign when they ratify the Euro Pact? | Facebook


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> oh please NO
> 
> 
> PLEASE don't go the conspiracy theory route - unless someone starts a new thread



Don't worry.....I think conspiracy theorists are nuts.
Just teasing...
Better to stay on planet Earth and read Alca's very good link.


----------



## Happyexpat

We all know the old saying about left and right hand not knowing what each other is doing. We also know about political u turns. This was in the Daily Telegraph this morning;
"_GEORGE OSBORNE should reduce taxes rather than relax his austerity spending cuts if Britain’s economy continues to struggle, the International Monetary Fund has said._
_The IMF yesterday gave broad support for the Chancellor’s plans to reduce the government deficit by cutting public spending and insisted that there was no need to change course at the moment.
The global economic watchdog said the economy remained on track for a “moderate” recovery where interest rates remain low and inflation finally starts to ease next year.
*But after its experts visited Britain for their annual survey, the IMF also warned of “significant” risks that growth will remain feeble and unemployment “unacceptably high”.*
Some economists have said that, if the economy does stall, Mr Osborne should be prepared to relax his programme of cuts to borrow more and spend more.
*By contrast, the IMF said that in such a scenario, the economy should be stimulated with a combination of more “quantitative easing” from the Bank of England and “temporary tax cuts” for businesses and low-income households*."_
Now, conspiracy theories aside I wonder who had pulled the IMF's string to bring about a near u turn comment like this. Are they maybe getting worried about the growing negative reaction around Europe? Is people power actually making a difference? It will be interesting to what they say about Spain, which I think is sometime this month.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> We all know the old saying about left and right hand not knowing what each other is doing. We also know about political u turns. This was in the Daily Telegraph this morning;
> "_GEORGE OSBORNE should reduce taxes rather than relax his austerity spending cuts if Britain’s economy continues to struggle, the International Monetary Fund has said._
> _The IMF yesterday gave broad support for the Chancellor’s plans to reduce the government deficit by cutting public spending and insisted that there was no need to change course at the moment.
> The global economic watchdog said the economy remained on track for a “moderate” recovery where interest rates remain low and inflation finally starts to ease next year.
> *But after its experts visited Britain for their annual survey, the IMF also warned of “significant” risks that growth will remain feeble and unemployment “unacceptably high”.*
> Some economists have said that, if the economy does stall, Mr Osborne should be prepared to relax his programme of cuts to borrow more and spend more.
> *By contrast, the IMF said that in such a scenario, the economy should be stimulated with a combination of more “quantitative easing” from the Bank of England and “temporary tax cuts” for businesses and low-income households*."_
> Now, conspiracy theories aside I wonder who had pulled the IMF's string to bring about a near u turn comment like this. Are they maybe getting worried about the growing negative reaction around Europe? Is people power actually making a difference? It will be interesting to what they say about Spain, which I think is sometime this month.


The IMF will say to Spain what it always says.....cuts in public spending, deregulation, privatisation and so on and so on. It will say this because it is a politically motivated organisation whose functionaries see only one solution to economic crises: policies based on the free-market approach.
Ed Balls was imo too timid in his response to the IMF statement - he didn't have the balls to say' Of course the IMF broadly supports the Coalition's economic policy (which despite the feeble caveats is what they did). What else do you expect from a bunch of unreconstructed Friedmanites?'
The IMF/World Bank and the rest of the money mafia are still singing from the same hymn sheet, oblivious to the discord their dogmatic policies produce. 
Yes, the IMF stated at the end of the 1990s that government intervention of a limited kind was necessary in the interests of a stable economy. But there is no U turn in the latest pronouncements.
Until someone in a position of authority comes out and says loudly that these transnational organisations are not composed of independent-minded economists seeking objective solutions to economic and social problems but of right-wing orthodox laissez-faire theorists who are seemingly oblivious to or even see as 'necessary' the social dislocation caused by their policies, the public at large will continue to regard them as 'experts' whose views are impartial and balanced.
The fact that no leading 'left' politician has had the guts (Balls) to say so loudly and clearly indicates that we are heading for a climate like that current in the U.S. where the word 'liberal' equals subversive communist and even middle-of-the-road social democrats are seen as the enemy within.
I hope that somewhere in Spain there is a politician known and respected enough who shares this view of the IMF as a neo-con apologia society and has the ******* to come out and say so publicly when the IMF delivers its verdict on the Spanish economy later this year.

P.S. What other slant did you expect the Torygraph to put on the IMF statement?


----------



## mrypg9

By the way, Happyexpat, I meant to say how much I agreed with your comments on Scargill and the miners' strike.
I believed at the time and still do that Scargill was an MI5 plant whose objective was to destroy the NUM. Either that or he really was still the dogmatic inflexible Communist of his youth as well as being incredibly stupid.
Flagrant disregard of the rule-book, bully-boy tactics, intimidation of Nottinghamshire miners who democratically voted against strike action....all this resulting in the decimation of the once mighty NUM. 
When I attend annual Trades Union Congress it is heartbreaking to see NUM delegates who once were there in huge numbers now reduced to a rump of four or five, thanks to that posturing pillock who is now resisting eviction from a luxury flat in the Barbican development owned by the NUM and for which he pays a peppercorn rent - he has a large farmhouse in Yorkshire too.
Hopefully Spanish trades union leaders have more sincerity and common sense as well as a commitment to democracy sadly lacking in the case of Scargill and his sidekicks.


----------



## Malagueño

mrypg9 said:


> I believed at the time and still do that Scargill was an MI5 plant whose objective was to destroy the NUM.


*That's impossible!!*

(A) That would mean that Scargill and others *conspired* in a plan which *they did not publicly admit to *- ie they kept it all secret and hidden and made sure there was (little or) no evidence of the conspiracy.

(B) As a result, you and nobody else (that we know of) has any cast iron proof, no signed confessions, no manifesto of the plan etc......so it's just a theory.

By definition, A + B = *a conspiracy theory*. 

And as most here have made so plain, such a thing is entirely impossible. 

Furthermore, as you hold to such a conspiracy theory (and have done for years) and you are also of the opinion that _"conspiracy theorists"_ are all nutters, then you seemingly class yourself as just such a nutter.


----------



## mrypg9

Malagueño;537232 said:


> *That's impossible!!*
> 
> (A) That would mean that Scargill and others *conspired* in a plan which *they did not publicly admit to *- ie they kept it all secret and hidden and made sure there was (little or) no evidence of the conspiracy.
> 
> (B) As a result, you and nobody else (that we know of) has any cast iron proof, no signed confessions, no manifesto of the plan etc......so it's just a theory.
> 
> By definition, A + B = *a conspiracy theory*.
> 
> And as most here have made so plain, such a thing is entirely impossible.
> 
> Furthermore, as you hold to such a conspiracy theory (and have done for years) and you are also of the opinion that _"conspiracy theorists"_ are all nutters, then you seemingly class yourself as just such a nutter.


 Calm down, dear. Try not to overdo the bold and the capitals. keys 
A conspiracy must contain an element of the illicit, unlawful. Having a plan is not the same as 'conspiring'. Consult a dictionary.
I have a plan I talk about to a few close associates for my animal charity. It is not a conspiracy although I do not share the details with all and sundry. 
Of course you are right. I have no proof for my belief and -this is where you and I differ - I may be totally wrong..
When you have something useful to add to what for the most part is a rational and constructive discussion of the current economic situation I'll happily exchange views with you..
Until then, do not bracket me with those who see 'hidden forces', 'mysterious powers' 'small groups of motivated people' etc. etc. behind everry world or local event......... people you couldn't name when asked to..
And ponder on the wise words of Oliver Cromwell to the Scottish Bishops:
'I beseech ye, brethren, consider: ye may be wrong'.
I get the feeling you care little for rational argument.
But then...I may be wrong...
As I said, I'm surprised you've not got round to fingering international Jewry, the Freemasons and world communism as the motivating forces behind world events..
But maybe you're warming up for that.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The IMF will say to Spain what it always says.....cuts in public spending, deregulation, privatisation and so on and so on. It will say this because it is a politically motivated organisation whose functionaries see only one solution to economic crises: policies based on the free-market approach.
> Ed Balls was imo too timid in his response to the IMF statement - he didn't have the balls to say' Of course the IMF broadly supports the Coalition's economic policy (which despite the feeble caveats is what they did). What else do you expect from a bunch of unreconstructed Friedmanites?'
> The IMF/World Bank and the rest of the money mafia are still singing from the same hymn sheet, oblivious to the discord their dogmatic policies produce.
> Yes, the IMF stated at the end of the 1990s that government intervention of a limited kind was necessary in the interests of a stable economy. But there is no U turn in the latest pronouncements.
> Until someone in a position of authority comes out and says loudly that these transnational organisations are not composed of independent-minded economists seeking objective solutions to economic and social problems but of right-wing orthodox laissez-faire theorists who are seemingly oblivious to or even see as 'necessary' the social dislocation caused by their policies, the public at large will continue to regard them as 'experts' whose views are impartial and balanced.
> The fact that no leading 'left' politician has had the guts (Balls) to say so loudly and clearly indicates that we are heading for a climate like that current in the U.S. where the word 'liberal' equals subversive communist and even middle-of-the-road social democrats are seen as the enemy within.
> I hope that somewhere in Spain there is a politician known and respected enough who shares this view of the IMF as a neo-con apologia society and has the ******* to come out and say so publicly when the IMF delivers its verdict on the Spanish economy later this year.
> 
> P.S. What other slant did you expect the Torygraph to put on the IMF statement?


Yay! :boxing:


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Yay! :boxing:


Getting back on track and ignoring distractions (which I should have done) here for what they're worth are my views on Dry M15 and people power in general.
I think the current protests are too vague and unfocused and will achieve very little, if anything.
One of the sad facts of history is that reason rarely changes minds.
Did the Suffragettes really change people's minds and gain the franchise for women? It seems that they were succeeding, by their violent and irrational tactics, in turning opinion against them. It was the role of women in the Great War which proved that opponents of women's suffrage were dinosaurs.
It took another war to move Governments to adopt Keynesian full employment policies. The mass protests of the thirties, the Hunger Marches and huge unemployment had no effect on Government policy.
Did the peace movement lead to the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty? Although I marched, spoke at CND rallies and sat down in Trafalgar Square I don't think we had any effect at all. It was the economic power of the U.S. against the weak evonomy of the Soviet Union which enabled the U.S. to have a head start in the arms race. Gorbachev recognised this.
But I used the term 'rarely'. The Civil Rights movement in the U.S. undoubtedly influenced Johnson's signing of the rights bill into law. Wise politicians will keep an eye on what happens on the streets.
But changes in democratic societies result from political action. Unless the protestors can produce a credible programme for change which they can 'sell' to the majority then their protest will fizzle out and be ineffective. They should be targetting their elected representatives, holding educational meetings in their coimmunities, doing the unglamorous but necessary and hard work of changing people's minds. Mass protests are good, you get a wonderfiul feeling of solidarity....but it's easy to be misled into thinking you are speaking for a larger constituency than you actually are.
As Happyexpat pointed out a few posts back, the people in the squares are a minority. That doesn't mean they should be ignored but it means they must use existing channels to make their views those of the majority.
Most people don't want a revolution with all the upheaval and chaos that would entail. They want a peaceful transition from the current state of affairs where markets dictate to society rather than serve it.
Changing minds involves a lot of hard work - producing a programme, costing it, weighing up the likely obstacles...and then the really hard work of 'selling' it: the education, persuading, propagandising even.
Political parties and trade unions used to do that sort of work.
It's a dying art nowadays.


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## xabiaxica

just to get back on topic

MADRID 19J. TOMA LA CALLE! POR UNA EUROPA PARA LOS CIUDADANOS | Facebook











anyone going?


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> just to get back on topic
> 
> MADRID 19J. TOMA LA CALLE! POR UNA EUROPA PARA LOS CIUDADANOS | Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyone going?


Now that is a very promising first step.
Getting down to the politics - way to go!!


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## mikeinmalaga

*Marching nowhere*

[Too little action too late, I fear, but this could really take off.

I didn't know anything about it as the protest was called on Twitter and Facebook...[/QUOTE]

True it could take off, I was at the protest march in Malaga on Sunday





"The workers united have never been defeated"

However, the people I spoke with are against PP and PSOE party politics
but to oppose them democratically (apart from revolution and blood shed)
they need to form a party, there is the paradox

Join the march and wave a banner but where does it get you?


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## mrypg9

mikeinmalaga;537461"The workers united have never been defeated"
Oh Mike said:


> Not very far unless you can translate it all into political infl;uence.
> I don't think a new party is the solution. Maybe work within the more amenable existing ones?
> I'm working with PSOE...in spite of the recent trouncing.


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## Happyexpat

Just to nail my colours to the mast, I agree totally with mrypg9. It is also good to see at least a step in the right direction. The comment that DRY don't really want to be a political party worries me. The European system is built round political parties, if you want to change it you first have to join it, there is no other way to do it in my opinion


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## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> Just to nail my colours to the mast, I agree totally with mrypg9. It is also good to see at least a step in the right direction. The comment that DRY don't really want to be a political party worries me. The European system is built round political parties, if you want to change it you first have to join it, there is no other way to do it in my opinion


There is no other way.....
Because of the likes of Blair, Clegg and Co young people have understandably become disillusioned with the political system. But politics is all we've got.
Was it Thomas Paine who wrote: 'Government is a contrivance of human wisdom to satisfy human needs'? Whether he or Burke...whoever..was right.
I remember the 'collectives' of the eighties.
Whatever purpose they were intended to serve (women's radical feminist magazine 'Spare Rib' or the short-lived industrial collectives favoured by the likes of Tony Benn) they ended in failure and acrimony.
To change the rules you join the club. No other way.


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## Pesky Wesky

mikeinmalaga said:


> [
> 
> Join the march and wave a banner but where does it get you?



Who knows?

But, as has been said before, sitting on bums at home doesn't get anything done, so....

let's go!

Again, as has been said before...
At the very least it's getting people talking, thinking and discussing things that perhaps they'd never thought about before or talked about before. People from the same area/ town are meeting up so hopefully they'll be more of a "belonging" feeling created.. I think there is more awareness of some central issues. And if nothing else happens, that's good for me


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Not very far unless you can translate it all into political infl;uence.
> I don't think a new party is the solution. Maybe work within the more amenable existing ones?
> I'm working with PSOE...in spite of the recent trouncing.


In my local meeting that is the idea that was tentively being put forward, but where would that get you exactly? In my experience, if you're not the party in power you don't exist. I'm finding it very hard to see the next step forward because if, in the end, a new party comes out of this, unless it has a vast majority, nothing will change, I don't have any faith in working with existing parties either, so???

However, I still think it's generating a lot of positives. There's nothing like sitting down and having a good old grouch about what's wrong with the world, but getting involved in making some changes must be even better, surely


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> just to get back on topic
> 
> MADRID 19J. TOMA LA CALLE! POR UNA EUROPA PARA LOS CIUDADANOS | Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anyone going?


Me!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Me!


I thought you might be:clap2:


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> In my local meeting that is the idea that was tentively being put forward, but where would that get you exactly? In my experience, if you're not the party in power you don't exist. I'm finding it very hard to see the next step forward because if, in the end, a new party comes out of this, unless it has a vast majority, nothing will change, I don't have any faith in working with existing parties either, so???
> 
> However, I still think it's generating a lot of positives. There's nothing like sitting down and having a good old grouch about what's wrong with the world, but getting involved in making some changes must be even better, surely


Well, as Marx said, you start from where you are, not where you'd like to be.
Fact is, new Parties don't have much of a track record. The only way is to influence thinking in the existing parties.
I may be wrong but I believe that there is a consensus in Spain that broadly supports a social market economy, i.e. the European rather than Anglo-Saxon/U.S. model. It could stem from the various traditions that combine in Spanish culture: social Catholicism, sociallism, anarcho-syndicalism and paternal conservatism. Neither PP nor PSOE will seek to abandon that model. Yet the pressures from the bond markets and the laissez-faire orthodoxy of the IMF etc. are pressurising towards the usual economic measures, oblivious to their social consequences.
It's beyond question that a free market is the most efficient way to run an economy in terms of material productivity. But that completely ignores the social costs: unemployment, family disintegration, breakdown of social cohesion etc. etc. that accompanies it. 
I think the fight will have the best chance of success in those western European countries that still have this social market model to a greater or lesser degree...France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia and others.
Politicians who sincerely want change have to subvert the system from within and to do that they need support from 'ordinary' people.
Anyone, whether a social democrat or compassionate conservative, who wishes to see the end of a system which puts the needs of the market over the well-being of the people, should get stuck into the party of their choice, be it PP or PSOE, and begin to agitate for change, for a radical break with current orthodoxies and a return to government in the interests of the people who put them there.
That's something I think Alca, Sonrisa, Thrax, Happyexpat and in fact most of us could get together on if we all lived in one pueblo.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Well, as Marx said, you start from where you are, not where you'd like to be.
> Fact is, new Parties don't have much of a track record. The only way is to influence thinking in the existing parties.
> I may be wrong but I believe that there is a consensus in Spain that broadly supports a social market economy, i.e. the European rather than Anglo-Saxon/U.S. model. It could stem from the various traditions that combine in Spanish culture: social Catholicism, sociallism, anarcho-syndicalism and paternal conservatism. Neither PP nor PSOE will seek to abandon that model. Yet the pressures from the bond markets and the laissez-faire orthodoxy of the IMF etc. are pressurising towards the usual economic measures, oblivious to their social consequences.
> It's beyond question that a free market is the most efficient way to run an economy in terms of material productivity. But that completely ignores the social costs: unemployment, family disintegration, breakdown of social cohesion etc. etc. that accompanies it.
> I think the fight will have the best chance of success in those western European countries that still have this social market model to a greater or lesser degree...France, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia and others.
> Politicians who sincerely want change have to subvert the system from within and to do that they need support from 'ordinary' people.
> Anyone, whether a social democrat or compassionate conservative, who wishes to see the end of a system which puts the needs of the market over the well-being of the people, should get stuck into the party of their choice, be it PP or PSOE, and begin to agitate for change, for a radical break with current orthodoxies and a return to government in the interests of the people who put them there.
> That's something I think Alca, Sonrisa, Thrax, Happyexpat and in fact most of us could get together on if we all lived in one pueblo.


I agree with much of what you have said, but I think the "agitation" needs to come from all sides ie those within politics and those outside the town hall, (who the ones on the inside are supposed to be serving anyway, but are usually forgotten the moment they close the door of their office in the town hall)


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree with much of what you have said, but I think the "agitation" needs to come from all sides ie those within politics and those outside the town hall, (who the ones on the inside are supposed to be serving anyway, but are usually forgotten the moment they close the door of their office in the town hall)


The ones inside are the servants (public servants) of those outside and should never forget that.
But if the people are apathetic 'those inside' will take advantage of that.
Stirring people out of apathy and defeatism is a very hard task. I tried to do it locally for years with limited and intermittent success.
Which is why 'educate and agitate' is a good slogan.
You have to understand that you are in it for the long haul. Changing hearts and minds, as they say, doesn't happen over night.
I fear that many of the young protestors will not understand that and will get disillusioned very quickly if they don't get the changes they want more or less immediately.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> The ones inside are the servants (public servants) of those outside and should never forget that.
> But if the people are apathetic 'those inside' will take advantage of that.
> Stirring people out of apathy and defeatism is a very hard task. I tried to do it locally for years with limited and intermittent success.
> Which is why 'educate and agitate' is a good slogan.
> You have to understand that you are in it for the long haul. Changing hearts and minds, as they say, doesn't happen over night.
> I fear that many of the young protestors will not understand that and will get disillusioned very quickly if they don't get the changes they want more or less immediately.


Absolutely!
The young protesters, and the old, because although the young started this movement, as is only right, the oldies are right in there too now!
But, as I continue to say,


I think the seed has been sown
I think people are debating and discussing more than they have for YEEARRRS
I think this will carry on in some form or other until the elections, which are just around the corner, and I think this is a very important point as I think more people will be stirred to vote which is always a positive.
Some of the starry eyed may still think that this is IT. This is the revolution, but my feeling is that people know it's as good as it lasts - and hopefully, but only hopefully, will it last.

Educate and Agitate


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely!
> The young protesters, and the old, because although the young started this movement, as is only right, the oldies are right in there too now!
> But, as I continue to say,
> 
> 
> I think the seed has been sown
> I think people are debating and discussing more than they have for YEEARRRS
> I think this will carry on in some form or other until the elections, which are just around the corner, and I think this is a very important point as I think more people will be stirred to vote which is always a positive.
> Some of the starry eyed may still think that this is IT. This is the revolution, but my feeling is that people know it's as good as it lasts - and hopefully, but only hopefully, will it last.
> 
> Educate and Agitate


There is far too little political education. In my experienmce it's rarely taught in UK schools unless it's a GCSE special subject. Don't know about Spain but doubt it's taught here either.
Most people are either totally disinterested in or have no knowledge of economic theories and political philosophies.
I guess that's why so many take the edicts and verdicts of the IMF and the rest of the money market mafia as gospel.
The message needs to go out: there is another way. The market should *serve *society not *mould* it.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> There is far too little political education. In my experienmce it's rarely taught in UK schools unless it's a GCSE special subject. Don't know about Spain but doubt it's taught here either.
> Most people are either totally disinterested in or have no knowledge of economic theories and political philosophies.
> I guess that's why so many take the edicts and verdicts of the IMF and the rest of the money market mafia as gospel.
> The message needs to go out: there is another way. The market should *serve *society not *mould* it.


They have Citizenship Studies as a mandatory subject in both countries now I think. But I doubt that the teachers are given much leeway to challenge the status quo.


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## Happyexpat

Unfortunately the teaching of political studies is, difficult and fraught with danger. While the basic theory of the different types of politics is straightforward enough, democracy, dictatorship, communism etc, the results and effects are open to the teachers interpretation. The same is true when dealing with specifics within a particular democracy.
It is easily open to fundamentalists to try and' bring young minds into the fold', a modern example would be some Muslim preachers but you can go as far back as Plato to see it happening.
Unfortunately it has been found that it is better to just stick to outlining politics, a bit like religion in schools and leaving those that wish to delve deeper independently to do so.
I have to agree with almost all the comments here, it is good thing that the young are starting to question the system. It is good to know that older people are joining in. What everybody in the movement has to understand, as has already been said, that it is going to be a long haul to change. There is no incentive, in fact the opposite, for those entrenched and doing well out of the present system to change it. In fact change will more than likely be resisted by every method possible.


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## mrypg9

I have just heard on BBC News that, albeit indirectly, taxpayers' money has funded bankers' bonuses.
I am muy indignata.
My OH ran a successful business, paid her employees well, had several apprentices and a SIPP. We thought it would provide a reasonable income in retirement.
The rate of return on the invested capital is so derisory that she would probably qualify for Income Support if she were in the UK and it were her only source of income.
Ridiculously low interest rates help those who borrowed beyond their means ...but what about those who obeyed Mrs. T. and saved prudently for their retirement?
Don't get me wrong, although we're not rich we're not pleading poverty. We're not getting what we expected, that's all. We won't starve.
But very many retired people like us are also paying the price for the sins of others.
We are indignatos too.
Happyexpat...you are right, it's difficult but politics and economics can be taught to older pupils without bias. I like to think I did it...well, I had no complaints from outraged parents. My students knew of my views -we lived in a small town - and enjoyed challenging them out of class. 
Alca...the study content of the syllabus you mention is bland beyond belief...


----------



## Happyexpat

I also had to teach history tied in to Sociology to adolescents. I hope I tried to present information in a balanced format but I found the syllabus very restrictive. The students often wanted to take a discussion further particularly when relating history to modern events. Unfortunately it simply wasn't allowed, just suggest further reading. Crying shame as I found many of the students keen to try and understand the complex subject but couldn't be bothered to do it on their own, especially as it wasn't a core subject. This type of situation could be a flaw in the ground swell we are seeing at the moment, long term committment to a poorly defined goal.


----------



## Happyexpat

Anybody know anything about the row going on with DRY over the alleged / rumoured sexual assaults on some of the women protestors or is this propoganda? Quite a few prople down here in Almeria were talking about it so whatever it is that has happened (no smoke without fire) is having a negative effect. I am told, however true it is, that womens groups are pulling out....


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> Anybody know anything about the row going on with DRY over the alleged / rumoured sexual assaults on some of the women protestors or is this propoganda? Quite a few prople down here in Almeria were talking about it so whatever it is that has happened (no smoke without fire) is having a negative effect. I am told, however true it is, that womens groups are pulling out....


I know that when we went down to Sol in that first week some feminist groups had wanted to join and there was some kind off animosity because the idea was that you joined the group as a person not as a collective. They didn't want group identities breaking up the DRY group if you see what I mean. The feminists took it as a slight against them as a group, which it wasn't.

PS didn't go to the meeting today as there is a medieval market there - with the guest appearance of Bob Sponge confused:It's a true story folks!!) I'm not sure if Mr. Sponge will be sporting medieval dress or not, but I didn't hang around to find out


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I know that when we went down to Sol in that first week some feminist groups had wanted to join and there was some kind off animosity because the idea was that you joined the group as a person not as a collective. They didn't want group identities breaking up the DRY group if you see what I mean. The feminists took it as a slight against them as a group, which it wasn't.
> 
> PS didn't go to the meeting today as there is a medieval market there - with the guest appearance of Bob Sponge confused:It's a true story folks!!) I'm not sure if Mr. Sponge will be sporting medieval dress or not, but I didn't hang around to find out


That would be SpongeBob


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> That would be SpongeBob



Thanks Xabiachica. I'll be able to recognise him now that I've got a picture of him in that nifty fancy dress costume!


----------



## mrypg9

I've just come back from the changeover ceremony of our local council...loads of cheering, jeering PP supporters. Well, after over thirty years of opposition with no more than five Consejales, they've now got control with seventeen. So I guess they have a right to their moment of triumph...
About thirty DRY supporters chanted 'You don't represent us!' when the new PP Mayor got up to speak. An enraged PP supporter rushed towards them, fists raised and a couple of Policia Local guys swiftly moved in.
We left and didn't hear his speech as we don't like being surrounded by so many right-wingers.
I went to a PSOE gathering Thursday night to discuss fight-back strategy and the need to get over to people just who is dictating the policies of elected governments and councils.
Why oh why won't a respected left, centre-left or even 'One-nation Tory' political figure come out and say that the IMF and the rest of the money mafia are the powers behind the scenes and that until their power is taken away elected governments are powerless???


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Why oh why won't a respected left, centre-left or even 'One-nation Tory' political figure come out and say that the IMF and the rest of the money mafia are the powers behind the scenes and that until their power is taken away elected governments are powerless???


Possibly because it's not true?


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> I've just come back from the changeover ceremony of our local council...loads of cheering, jeering PP supporters. Well, after over thirty years of opposition with no more than five Consejales, they've now got control with seventeen. So I guess they have a right to their moment of triumph...
> About thirty DRY supporters chanted 'You don't represent us!' when the new PP Mayor got up to speak. An enraged PP supporter rushed towards them, fists raised and a couple of Policia Local guys swiftly moved in.
> We left and didn't hear his speech as we don't like being surrounded by so many right-wingers.
> I went to a PSOE gathering Thursday night to discuss fight-back strategy and the need to get over to people just who is dictating the policies of elected governments and councils.
> Why oh why won't a respected left, centre-left or even 'One-nation Tory' political figure come out and say that the IMF and the rest of the money mafia are the powers behind the scenes and that until their power is taken away elected governments are powerless???


Oh dear I do sympathise. We've just been lumbered with a PP mayor for the first time ever because the weaselly little opportunist git from the IU has signed a pact with them to oppose the PSOE, who didn't get an overall majority. I feel quite sick.

Hopefully that will boost the local DRY membership - though I'm not sure the IU leader will be able to show his face there again.


----------



## Happyexpat

It seems to me, at the moment, same Sh*t different day and people. Loadsa promises were made in our area and now they have been active for just a few hours suddenly ' due to irresponsibilty of the previous incumbants we are unable to fulfil some of our promises, in fact some projects and services may have to be stopped or curtailed." Now let me see....yes thought so.....Iv'e heard this before, time and time again. Confrontational politics, bah humbug! Put em all in the same party, elect individuals, and tell them to work together for the good of the people and the country.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> It seems to me, at the moment, same Sh*t different day and people. Loadsa promises were made in our area and now they have been active for just a few hours suddenly ' due to irresponsibilty of the previous incumbants we are unable to fulfil some of our promises, in fact some projects and services may have to be stopped or curtailed." Now let me see....yes thought so.....Iv'e heard this before, time and time again. Confrontational politics, bah humbug! Put em all in the same party, elect individuals, and tell them to work together for the good of the people and the country.


But you're talking about the elections aren't you, not 15 M???????


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Possibly because it's not true?


But it *is* true.
In the seventies the main posts at these transnational organisations were held by graduates of the Chicago School where the economic theories of Hayek, Friedman et al were taught as fact, not just another economic theory.
Proof is easily available but is seen most clearly in the Structural Adjustment Policies which were foisted onto Governments in developing countries as the price for financial aid. In every case the result was economic disaster and social dislocation.
The same disastrous policies are now being urged upon Greece, Ireland and Portugal.
The Acting IMF Head praised the UK Government'seconomic policy,albeit half-heartedly, in the face of strong evidence that these policies are not working.
Now prove the opposite view!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Oh dear I do sympathise. We've just been lumbered with a PP mayor for the first time ever because the weaselly little opportunist git from the IU has signed a pact with them to oppose the PSOE, who didn't get an overall majority. I feel quite sick.
> 
> Hopefully that will boost the local DRY membership - though I'm not sure the IU leader will be able to show his face there again.


Yes, it all sucks, doesn't it.... Power for its own sake.
What worries me about the DRY people is that they seem unaware of how changes actually get made. There is no option other than to work within existing structures. Unless there is a realistic hope for change and within a reasonable time, these young people will become disillusioned and either pack it all in or turn to extremist movements that promise the heady excitement of quick change involving violence. 
Nothing scares the average citizen more than the threat or spectacle of public disorder - one of the reasons why Germans voted Nazi in the thirties. Imo the anti-global protestors have alienated mainstream opinion and distracted focus from the real issue. Smashing a few bank windows and jumping on the roofs of posh cars is not a political act.
The DRY movement needs to get stuck in to the main parties. That is the only realistic project for taking ownership of and changing the terms of political discourse. It will take time - although events now move with amazing speed - and isn't glamorous but it's the only way forward and it's vital to take the people with you.
One practical and useful policy tool is the introduction of the 'Robin Hood Tax' (aka as the Tobin tax after the respected economist who thought it up some sixty years ago). My union is promoting this in the UK with videos etc. It involves a small -miniscule tax of 0.5% on all speculative financial transactions, currency transfers etc. The idea has been revived and seriously considered by many non-neo-con indoctrinated economists and politicians.
If taken up by all member states of the EU it could generate massive revenue.
Anyone who hasn't heard of it...please google and reflect on it.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> It seems to me, at the moment, same Sh*t different day and people. Loadsa promises were made in our area and now they have been active for just a few hours suddenly ' due to irresponsibilty of the previous incumbants we are unable to fulfil some of our promises, in fact some projects and services may have to be stopped or curtailed." Now let me see....yes thought so.....Iv'e heard this before, time and time again. Confrontational politics, bah humbug! Put em all in the same party, elect individuals, and tell them to work together for the good of the people and the country.



Well,it could be true....
Your suggestion is impractical because we all have different views as to what is good for the people and the country. It's also rather dangerous.
This difference of views is known as politics, whether confrontational or not, and it's the essence of democracy.!!!!!
And history has shown that where you have this kind of spurious unity the form of government that embodies it is usually dictatorial. The first thing Hitler did on achieving power was to ban all opposition parties and trades unions in the name of national unity. The same is true of all dictatorships...they claim to embody the 'will of the people'.
What should be avoided at all costs imo is to slide into the grip of an ideology.
When you do that you start believing that there is only one 'correct' way of solving problems. You then progress to demonise those who don't share this narrow view.
History provides numerous examples of that across the spectrum....Lenin/Stalin, Franco, Hitler, Pol Pot, Castro, MaoTse Tung....
The secular religions of socialism, fascism, neo-conservatism take from the individual his/her personal responsibility in the name of a greater good ande are dangerous as well as recipes for economic disaster.


----------



## Happyexpat

Yes I agree with you, my comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. If you remember I said earlier in this thread that the only thing that would work is a benign world dictatorship which is, of course, totally impossible.
However having said that it is also clear the confrontational 'opposite' politics also doesn't work, in fact is often retrogressive with its pendelum effect.
Maybe the potential answer lies in coalition. I would suggest that jury is out on this at the moment and is likely to remain so for the next couple of years. Such a change in politics will however be strongly resisted by the present incumbants. In fact any fundamental change will be resisted.
Although I don't like it I also fully support your comments on DRY. They either 'play the game' initially under the current rules, fizzle out, or end up at the radical and violent end of the spectrum. There are already cracks beginning to show between power groups supporting and within DRY so I'm afraid I think their chances are slim for long term progress or even survival.


----------



## gus-lopez

So then we'd arrive at JfK's " if you ignore peaceful revolution , then violent revolution is inevitable "


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> So then we'd arrive at JfK's " if you ignore peaceful revolution , then violent revolution is inevitable "


That is very true but we're a long way from being in a revolutionary situation.
The 15M and DRY do not speak for the majority - maybe they will at some point but not now.
We mustn't forget that in the recent democratic election the majority wanted a return to conservatism. Our municipality is now led by a man who spoke of the 'alleged crimes of the Franco era'. After over thirty years of PSOE rule, our Town Hall of 25 Consejales has seventeen PP and six PSOE members.
Leftwing folk fail to adequately explain why in times of economic crisis the voting majority turns to the right - it's happening all over Europe.
Successful revolutions are usually led by charismatic leaders backed by a well-structured and tightly-knit organisation.
What we are seeing now is a group of socially and economically excluded young people who are rightly mightily p****d off with the mess their elders and betters have created. They reject the 'old' politics but have no real plan for a new approach.
Which is why the only way to change things is to work within the existing power structures.
And be prepared for a long hard struggle.


----------



## mepossem

have a look at soniacastedo com - her name is the Alicante mayoress, but the site is about something else


----------



## Happyexpat

Again back to fundamental argument, if you want change you have to be able to present a practical, well thought out alternative. While I strongly agree with the young people that we have 'screwed it up' they have to now tell us a new way. Unfortunately history repeatedly shows us that the 'known' alternatives to democracy are much worse than the present system.
There is only one choice, run with the system as it is, get rid of the 'bad apples' and slowly improve it by modifying it where required. This can only be done from within, not shouting about it outside and saying we don't actually really want to run for power just now, we just want change NOW. It ain't gonna happen and they need to get a grip of the real world, a complete understanding of the situation wordwide, take responsibility and be prepared for a very long and difficult political struggle.
Things will, by themselves, improve over the next few years, they always do and if DRY or the young people have not made a good impression or been part of that improvement process during the bad times they certainly won't be remembered or wanted in the good ones, such is the fickle nature of mankind together with a very short memory.


----------



## mepossem

I see you ve never heard about Sartre, the 68 revolution and 'l imagination au pouvoir'.

come on, don' t show your age


----------



## Happyexpat

Ah but I have and I do remember the riots in Paris.....didn't have much of a long term effect though did it. Many of the student leaders are now in 'traditional' politics the traditional way.


----------



## mepossem

some are, some are not.
Cohn Bendit is still with the greens.

interesting as I am at present preparing a course of 'marketing for politicians' at a business school here in Spain. 

There was someone who said. if at 20 you re not a socialist, you haven t got a heart. If you re still socialist at 30, you haven t got brains.

Wise man ....


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## mepossem

for information ...


----------



## xabiaxica

mepossem said:


> have a look at soniacastedo com - her name is the Alicante mayoress, but the site is about something else


yes - it takes you to this Inicio - ¡Democracia Real YA!


----------



## Alcalaina

mepossem said:


> some are, some are not.
> Cohn Bendit is still with the greens.
> 
> interesting as I am at present preparing a course of 'marketing for politicians' at a business school here in Spain.
> 
> There was someone who said. if at 20 you re not a socialist, you haven t got a heart. If you re still socialist at 30, you haven t got brains.
> 
> Wise man ....


He meant to say, if you are still a socialist at 30 (or 60) you have managed to avoid being brainwashed.


----------



## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> I see you ve never heard about Sartre, the 68 revolution and 'l imagination au pouvoir'.
> 
> come on, don' t show your age


Sartre is imo a good example of a so-called leftist intellectual who should imo be firmly placed in Pseud's corner along with his ghastly amenuensis and some-time lover Simone de Beauvoir.
His political achievement is....rien.
The riots of 1968 resulted in the reawakening of the French bourgeoisie who responded to De Gaulle's call to reclaim the streets and who then welcomed his return to power.
_Les evenements_ are a good example of a movement with no credible leaders, drunk on its own rhetoric which through lack of seriousness alienated the population at large and paved the way for return of reaction.
The slogan of the time: 'Je suis marxiste...tendence Groucho' summed it all up.
And yes, I was in France at the time, and at the time of the great march of the smug-faced bourgeoisie through central Paris...
A lot of fun, that spring in Paris- and in Prague- but with a result that anyone with half a brain (an apt description of me then and maybe still today) should have been able to foresee.

Happyexpat.....tells it like it is.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> He meant to say, if you are still a socialist at 30 (or 60) you have managed to avoid being brainwashed.


If you think you are a socialist at any age you are most probably not - you are a social democrat.
The problem with calling ones'self a socialist is that it is for most people a self-defining term.
Socialism as properly understood is an essentially economic-based ideology aka a secular religion which has as its central doctrine of faith the common ownership of the means of production and distribution. 
In every country where it has been tried it has failed. From Russia to China to Cuba to Czechoslovakia to Vietnam this has been the case and a mixed economy has become the norm.
It is a creed which has been decisively rejected by electorates - when given the chance to vote as socialist regimes do not tolerate dissent - and which has been rendered ineffectual and impractical by technology.
Social democrats should be fighting to preserve the European variety of capitalism which combines freedom with economic efficiency and a high level of provision of the social wage.
Socialism is a turn-off for most people nowadays.


----------



## Happyexpat

Or you have managed to avoid living in the real world for 30 / 60 years. That doesn't necessarily mean I am conservative in case anybody is wondering, just an experienced cynic.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> Or you have managed to avoid living in the real world for 30 / 60 years. That doesn't necessarily mean I am conservative in case anybody is wondering, just an experienced cynic.


Nothing wrong with being conservative....like socialism, the term means what you want it to.
To me it means being pragmatic, not bound by ideology or attached to abstracts such as 'equality', 'freedom' 'fraternity' ....all those eighteenth- century continental Enlightenment ideals that really need to be brought down to Anglo-Saxon earth and applied to real life - i.e. in practical terms _equality_ is best translated into_ fairness_, which can often imply a degree of inequality.
By my definition, Thatcher, GW Bush, Keith Joseph and their ilk are not conservatives....they are ideologues and do not come within the British scope of pragmatic conservatism. They are New Liberals or Neo-Conservatives, whatever....
I suppose that like you I am cynical because of experience. I was an idealist in my twenties, member of the Communist Party (until I saw Communism in practice in Eastern Europe and the USSR) but when I found myself in a position where I had some measure of political power, I soon learned that you never get the opportunity to do what you really want to, you have to choose the least harmful of the courses of action that are actually available to you.
I also learnt that there are too many people on the left who prefer the irresponsible fun of opposition to the burden of exercising political power.
And that's the bottom line: to make real, lasting change, you need power.
DRy have yet to come to terms with that awkward little fact and lack a strategy for winning over the population at large which in a democracy you must do to gain power to make those desired changes.


----------



## mepossem

mrypg9 said:


> Sartre is imo a good example of a so-called leftist intellectual who should imo be firmly placed in Pseud's corner along with his ghastly amenuensis and some-time lover Simone de Beauvoir.
> His political achievement is....rien.
> The riots of 1968 resulted in the reawakening of the French bourgeoisie who responded to De Gaulle's call to reclaim the streets and who then welcomed his return to power.
> _Les evenements_ are a good example of a movement with no credible leaders, drunk on its own rhetoric which through lack of seriousness alienated the population at large and paved the way for return of reaction.
> The slogan of the time: 'Je suis marxiste...tendence Groucho' summed it all up.
> And yes, I was in France at the time, and at the time of the great march of the smug-faced bourgeoisie through central Paris...
> A lot of fun, that spring in Paris- and in Prague- but with a result that anyone with half a brain (an apt description of me then and maybe still today) should have been able to foresee.
> 
> Happyexpat.....tells it like it is.


somewhere somehow my memory is that in 68 there was indeed the march in Paris by Malraux and others. And that a year later de Gaulle was out to Colombay les deux Eglises ...

Francaises, Francais, je vous ai compris ....


some countries need big shocks to have changes, others go slowly. The French like the big shocks. Maybe that's why in England the aristocracy is still holding on whilst in France ...

A funny example - particularly today - is Belgium: one year without a government, but economy expanding, major problem in Flanders is low unemployment. It's a funny world ...


----------



## Happyexpat

*Similar and yet strangely not*

Its funny how in so many ways, in fact the majority, I agree with what you say and then I come across a statement which just doesn't hang with the rest of the text. Maggie and Keith Joseph were probably the most traditional conservatives of the last 100 years. Strong, pragmatic, elitest and traditionalists. They had power and they cleverly used it until the end game when they went too far. As for DRy i'm afraid its now a case of least said soonest mended and the defence camp seems to have gone a bit quiet. It is a shame though, an opportunity missed!


mrypg9 said:


> Nothing wrong with being conservative....like socialism, the [/B][/B]term means what you want it to.
> To me it means being pragmatic, not bound by ideology or attached to abstracts such as 'equality', 'freedom' 'fraternity' ....all those eighteenth- century continental Enlightenment ideals that really need to be brought down to Anglo-Saxon earth and applied to real life - i.e. in practical terms _equality_ is best translated into_ fairness_, which can often imply a degree of inequality.
> By my definition, Thatcher, GW Bush, Keith Joseph and their ilk are not conservatives....they are ideologues and do not come within the British scope of pragmatic conservatism. They are New Liberals or Neo-Conservatives, whatever....
> I suppose that like you I am cynical because of experience. I was an idealist in my twenties, member of the Communist Party (until I saw Communism in practice in Eastern Europe and the USSR) but when I found myself in a position where I had some measure of political power, I soon learned that you never get the opportunity to do what you really want to, you have to choose the least harmful of the courses of action that are actually available to you.
> I also learnt that there are too many people on the left who prefer the irresponsible fun of opposition to the burden of exercising political power.
> And that's the bottom line: to make real, lasting change, you need power.
> DRy have yet to come to terms with that awkward little fact and lack a strategy for winning over the population at large which in a democracy you must do to gain power to make those desired changes.


----------



## Happyexpat

*No Government, a solution*

Now there's a new idea, kick all the Governments out together with bankers, accountants and solicitors. Back to the barter system, nobody to declare war on, nobody to order us about.....sounds like a plan to me, no wonder Belgium is doing so well......or might it just be that all of Europe is controlled from there and all the ministers massive expenses we pay for are spent there....just my usual cynical thoughts.


mepossem said:


> somewhere somehow my memory is that in 68 there was indeed the march in Paris by Malraux and others. And that a year later de Gaulle was out to Colombay les deux Eglises ...
> 
> Francaises, Francais, je vous ai compris ....
> 
> 
> some countries need big shocks to have changes, others go slowly. The French like the big shocks. Maybe that's why in England the aristocracy is still holding on whilst in France ...
> 
> A funny example - particularly today - is Belgium: one year without a government, but economy expanding, major problem in Flanders is low unemployment. It's a funny world ...


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> Its funny how in so many ways, in fact the majority, I agree with what you say and then I come across a statement which just doesn't hang with the rest of the text. Maggie and Keith Joseph were probably the most traditional conservatives of the last 100 years. Strong, pragmatic, elitest and traditionalists. They had power and they cleverly used it until the end game when they went too far. As for DRy i'm afraid its now a case of least said soonest mended and the defence camp seems to have gone a bit quiet. It is a shame though, an opportunity missed!


I beg to differ!!
Mrs. Thatcher in her later period in office at least espoused the neo-con agenda with no reservations. I seem to remember reading that her favourite book was Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom'.
Neo-cons like communists and fascists believe in 'creative destruction'....they believe that there is only one road to what Fukiyama called 'the end of history': the free market and liberal democracy in the case of the neo-cons.
Thatcher was far from being a traditionalist....her disdain for the monarchy, for the aristocracy in general. As a true traditional Tory once allegedly said, Mrs. T represented the garagiste tendency of British Toryism.
Tony Blair was in my view a neo-con, certainly where foreign policy was concerned.


----------



## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> somewhere somehow my memory is that in 68 there was indeed the march in Paris by Malraux and others. And that a year later de Gaulle was out to Colombay les deux Eglises ...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Mais il a bien compris ...
> The point is that the student riots -for that's what they were - achieved nothing.
> Incidentally, many of their leading lights have grown up and nbecome part of the Establishment....bankers, businesspeople, inheritors of daddy's money.
> A more lasting and dangerous revolution could be achieved peaceably if Martine Le Pen succeeds where her father failed.
> She has taken a lot of people with her and could cause a major upset now that DSK is otherwise engaged.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> And that's the bottom line: to make real, lasting change, you need power.
> DRy have yet to come to terms with that awkward little fact and lack a strategy for winning over the population at large which in a democracy you must do to gain power to make those desired changes.


Happyexpat


> As for DRy i'm afraid its now a case of least said soonest mended and the defence camp seems to have gone a bit quiet. It is a shame though, an opportunity missed!


mrypg9


> The 15M and DRY do not speak for the majority - maybe they will at some point but not now.


Happyexpat - I'm not sure if by the _defence camp_ you mean me. Whether you do or not, this is my latest post on this thread - supposedly about protests taking place in Spain 2011, not France 1968.

O ye of little faith. 
Have you heard yourselves?
It won't work, it won't go anywhere and even if it does it won't last. 

_*SO WHAT?*_

The only thing they (15 M, DRY, perhaps the Spanish Revolution, nolesvotesmas and others) are sure about doing, is getting more people interested in what's happening in their country, getting debate going, about getting people involved in their communities.

And that _*is*_ happening.
Is that such an insignificant feat? Something that centuries of politics has failed to do?

So...
There might not be any great changes in the electoral system for the next elections.
Perhaps the retirment age will not go back to 65 next year
Perhaps no more medical staff will be contracted under the new govenment

But perhaps something somewhere _will_ change.

Now wouldn't that be nice

How about, instead of giving it a few weeks to change, you give it a few years. After all, it took quite a few years to build the current system up to it's full destructive height. Hundreds of them in fact. 
Being cynical, cynical through experience is fine, but many of these people are NOT cynical 'cos they haven't got experience. Let them get their experience themselves, without someone tutting at them from behind. They may well get cynical all on their own - but hey! They might not. They might actually come through positively unscathed. Some people do you know! And even if they do get worn down by "experience" there's nothing worse than having someone at their back saying "I told you so!" 
Others are very "cynical" about the ways things are going and that's what has spurred them on to join this movement.

Here's some reading material for those who really are interested in hearing other opinions, because I would hate people to talk about something they had no infomation about.

Some of the things that are being debated. How are they going to put any conclusions into action? NO CLEAR PLAN ATM
Propuestas - ¡Democracia Real YA!

Spanish Revolution - 15 M - explained (English)
15m

And more (English)
Danna Harman: The Sort of Revolution in Puerta del Sol

Article about what happens now the camp in Sol has broken up (English)
Trans-Iberian >> Blogs EL PAÍS


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Happyexpat
> mrypg9
> Happyexpat - I'm not sure if by the _defence camp_ you mean me. Whether you do or not, this is my latest post on this thread - supposedly about protests taking place in Spain 2011, not France 1968.
> 
> O ye of little faith.
> Have you heard yourselves?
> It won't work, it won't go anywhere and even if it does it won't last.
> 
> _*SO WHAT?*_
> 
> The only thing they (15 M, DRY, perhaps the Spanish Revolution, nolesvotesmas and others) are sure about doing, is getting more people interested in what's happening in their country, getting debate going, about getting people involved in their communities.
> 
> And that _*is*_ happening.
> Is that such an insignificant feat? Something that centuries of politics has failed to do?
> 
> So...
> There might not be any great changes in the electoral system for the next elections.
> Perhaps the retirment age will not go back to 65 next year
> Perhaps no more medical staff will be contracted under the new govenment
> 
> But perhaps something somewhere _will_ change.
> 
> Now wouldn't that be nice
> 
> How about, instead of giving it a few weeks to change, you give it a few years. After all, it took quite a few years to build the current system up to it's full destructive height. Hundreds of them in fact.
> Being cynical, cynical through experience is fine, but many of these people are NOT cynical 'cos they haven't got experience. Let them get their experience themselves, without someone tutting at them from behind. They may well get cynical all on their own - but hey! They might not. They might actually come through positively unscathed. Some people do you know! And even if they do get worn down by "experience" there's nothing worse than having someone at their back saying "I told you so!"
> Others are very "cynical" about the ways things are going and that's what has spurred them on to join this movement.
> 
> Here's some reading material for those who really are interested in hearing other opinions, because I would hate people to talk about something they had no infomation about.
> 
> Some of the things that are being debated. How are they going to put any conclusions into action? NO CLEAR PLAN ATM
> Propuestas - ¡Democracia Real YA!
> 
> Spanish Revolution - 15 M - explained (English)
> 15m
> 
> And more (English)
> Danna Harman: The Sort of Revolution in Puerta del Sol
> 
> Article about what happens now the camp in Sol has broken up (English)
> Trans-Iberian >> Blogs EL PAÍS


I did point out that real change takes years. 
I think it is a huge mistake to suppose that 15M/DRY are a new phenomenum but they are typical of many other protests over the past few decades.
It is also a mistake to imagine that they speak for more than their own constituency - these kinds of movements often speak to those who agree with them rather than to those they need to have as allies if they are to succeed.
I may be cynical having myself taken part in many 'mass uprisings' - Vietnam, CND, student grant cuts and so on. But I am also a realist.
Mass protests are more exciting than the dull grind of the kind of politics that actually changes things. There's a kind of romantic enthusiasm about them...which often evaporates when it hits the hard rock-face of political fact.
15M and DRY say there is no 'real democracy' but they are wrong. Of course Spain has a democratic system -more so in its voting form than the UK, some would say. The problem is that for clear reasons the system isn't doing what it should....delivering policies which provide jobs for all. I've said why I think that is.
The only way for realistic change is to get inside established organisations, get power for yourself and your ideals so you can change things.
That isnm't cynicism or resignation, it's sound, realistic advice.
I will make a prediction I do not want to come true but I fear it will:

next year's Regional elections will return a massive PP victory
the General election will result in power to the PP
The 15m and DRY will dissolve through lack of success, disillusion and apathy.

If anyone would like to put money ...10 euros ...against this outcome, proceeds to ADANA, I'm willing to organise it.

*'To change the world you must first see it as it is'.* Karl Marx.


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## mrypg9

I have read those pieces earlier. The Huff piece sums it all up neatly and not favourably.
The demands are reasonable...but there is no plan for implementation. 
Unless you can state how to bridger the gap between idea and propagation thereof you are merely a talk shop.


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> next year's Regional elections will return a massive PP victory
> the General election will result in power to the PP
> The 15m and DRY will dissolve through lack of success, disillusion and apathy.


Yup. Those few who were interested in DRY etc are already bored with it. It's not a particularly significant movement.:ranger:


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> next year's Regional elections will return a massive PP victory
> the General election will result in power to the PP
> The 15m and DRY will dissolve through lack of success, disillusion and apathy.
> 
> 
> *'To change the world you must first see it as it is'.* Karl Marx.


Mary, I totally agree with you.

The only thing I would change would be the note of despondancy, and negativity, and dare I say superiority that I detect in recent posts. Been there, done that, bought the t shirt and made a film of it. Perhaps I'm wrong and that's not what you, and others want to convey, but that's how I'm reading it. 
My point in opening the thread was to give information of what is happening in today's Spain as I think as foreigners living in Spain we are some times on the outside looking in. I find it amazing after all the pointers that have been given that people are still saying there are no proposals, that the movement isn't doing anything, and that it's not going anywhere. It may well fizzle out, but ATM it's still going strong.
What this movement is doing IMO is not going to have a negative outcome. Talking and making people aware, or more aware of their surroundings is not such a bad thing. And that is what happening at the very least.

I think I'll misquote Mr. Marx
*To change the world you must first be prepared to see it as others do* 
And here's one of my own. 
*If you don't want to see what's going on around you, you won't*


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I have read those pieces earlier. The Huff piece sums it all up neatly and not favourably.
> The demands are reasonable...but there is no plan for implementation.
> Unless you can state how to bridger the gap between idea and propagation thereof you are merely a talk shop.


What's the problem with talking?

PS I know the Huff article doesn't paint a rosy picture. I don't think any of the articles, even those by DRY themselves, are stupid enough to be rolling in glory.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Mary, I totally agree with you.
> 
> The only thing I would change would be the note of despondancy, and negativity, and dare I say superiority that I detect in recent posts. Been there, done that, bought the t shirt and made a film of it. Perhaps I'm wrong and that's not what you, and others want to convey, but that's how I'm reading it.
> My point in opening the thread was to give information of what is happening in today's Spain as I think as foreigners living in Spain we are some times on the outside looking in. I find it amazing after all the pointers that have been given that people are still saying there are no proposals, that the movement isn't doing anything, and that it's not going anywhere. It may well fizzle out, but ATM it's still going strong.
> What this movement is doing IMO is not going to have a negative outcome. Talking and making people aware, or more aware of their surroundings is not such a bad thing. And that is what happening at the very least.
> 
> I think I'll misquote Mr. Marx
> *To change the world you must first be prepared to see it as others do*
> And here's one of my own.
> *If you don't want to see what's going on around you, you won't*


No way am I being superior - I've done little when in politics to stake claim to any superiority. Sadly..
I want this movement to achieve its aims. When almost half of a nation's young people are without work or hope for a future then that country is heading for BIG trouble.
But your own personal quote is better than your misquote of Herr Marx.
If others are not seeing things as they really are but merely as others i.e. those who agree with them do they will come up sharply against those unperceived realities. Marx called that 'false consciousness'. It's real, it moves people to action....but it can of itself achieve nothing because it sidesteps the real question which is : where does the power to make changes really lie?
I'm all for anything that promotes political education and debate. I said earlier, there's not enough of it.
I had discussions with our local DRY people and suggested they join PSOE which in our area is receptive to their cause. By getting stuck in to the only parties which have the chance of winning power they can put forward their agenda for change. That's how things are done in democracies.
The alternative is violence which will only succeed in overthrowing democracy.
Systems of government are created by humans and will not ever achieve perfection. Today's communities are too large for every voice to be heard. The DRY movement itself is composed of many groups with conflicting interests. Politics is the art of bringing together all the varied interests of society and achieving some kind of conciliation. The interests of a large section of the Spanish population, the young, have not been addressed. That and other unfairnesses must be changed.
What is happening currently is street theatre which is good and catches the interest of the politically disinterested.
But to achieve the aims they want, the protestors must work within the democratic system to change what inhibits them now.
We shall surely see a PP win in next year's elections, as I said - you don't need to be a genius to work that out.
I have worked within the system all my adult life to get the policies I wanted adapted. A few times I succeeded.
But I never made the mistake of assuming that noise and publicity on my part alone would change hearts and minds. 
To change systems you work within, not outside them. You look back at history not to gloat but to learn not to repeat the same mistakes.
That's my main point.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> What's the problem with talking?
> 
> .


No problem. But talk is cheap and will per se change nothing. Organisation to get hands on the levers of power has to accompany talk if it is to have value other than that of merely passing the time.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> No problem. But talk is cheap and will per se change nothing. Organisation to get hands on the levers of power has to accompany talk if it is to have value other than that of merely passing the time.


Something that we all know and have all said.
But without talk there is nothing, I think you'd agree.

Think of it the other way round. If they professed to represent the people, but not talk to them, and on top of that proceeded to make changes, implement laws etc that favoured themselves without taking into account public opinion, where would we be then? Does it sound familiar? Oh yes, silly me, it's the system we're working under now!
They may **** up later on when they try to implement changes, but they're not there yet and how the hell do you expect them to be at that stage after a few weeks? First things first. 
And they will **** up, they will make mistakes, but who are we to tell them "You might as well give up now, before you make a fool of yourself". 
My point is don't criticise them for doing something right! 
If people don't want to take part, fine, but don't pull something to pieces from the sidelines.
Talking never harmed anyone, out of acorns do big trees grow, don't try to clip their wings, never look a gift horse in the mouth. OOps! Sorry, I think that last one can be deleted


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## Happyexpat

I was going to reply to Pesky Wesky's comments but mrypg9 has said everything I was going to say so there is no point in repeating it.
Two points I will make are that I don't comment from a position of superiority, far from it as it is my generation in the main that has screwed it up and I, amongst millions of others, let them do it. Secondly I really do, in principle, support what they are trying to do, it is not me but history which says they are going about it the wrong way.
If I were younger, a citizen of Spain but still with the knowledge and experience I have gained in my 60 years I would be entering politics and fighting from within, the only way to succeed. The same would be true if I lived in the UK.


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## mepossem

my previous post was deleted - probably as it contained the spanish speech of Aguirre on the changes she wants in the electoral law. If anyone can find it in English (I am sure the english press in Spain will pick it up in the next week or so) would appreciate it since it really is a breakthrough - if it happens.


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## Happyexpat

I was just about to reply to meopossems comment which has been deleted for, I think, not being in English. Although I agree with that as it makes life simpler the content in this particular case was relevant and very important. I hope the moderator will not object but in English it said
"Announced the reform of the Electoral Act to divide Madrid autonomous districts, as is the case on the Balearic Islands, Murcia and Asturias, and lists open to enable citizens to know their representatives and have more control over them. Switching to a non-locked list "a milestone in the Spanish democracy." Reform has to be called consensus, which would implement the new electoral law in the next election."
Now if the effect of DRy, 15th or the so called Spanish revolution has been to bring about this change I can only applaud them. I have a feeling that this was probably in the planning stage for quite a while and they may have triggered a more rapid implementation. Whatever the case its a major step forward.


----------



## xabiaxica

Happyexpat said:


> I was just about to reply to meopossems comment which has been deleted for, I think, not being in English. Although I agree with that as it makes life simpler the content in this particular case was relevant and very important. I hope the moderator will not object but in English it said
> "Announced the reform of the Electoral Act to divide Madrid autonomous districts, as is the case on the Balearic Islands, Murcia and Asturias, and lists open to enable citizens to know their representatives and have more control over them. Switching to a non-locked list "a milestone in the Spanish democracy." Reform has to be called consensus, which would implement the new electoral law in the next election."
> Now if the effect of DRy, 15th or the so called Spanish revolution has been to bring about this change I can only applaud them. I have a feeling that this was probably in the planning stage for quite a while and they may have triggered a more rapid implementation. Whatever the case its a major step forward.


yes, it is relevant, & yes, you're right that it was deleted for not being in english

I was rather hoping that he'd come back & translate it himself, after checking rule 6

English is the language of this forum, so all posts must be in english -it's fine to quote spanish news items, providing a translation is provided, if not in entirety, at least the gist


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## mepossem

the important sentence is Switching to a non-locked list

it is a recurrent complaint of spaniards that they have to accept the list 'as is'.
one wonders how many votes Ripoll would have had in Alicante?

Strangely enough it is Esperanza Aguirre who starts with it ... will be fun to see if it gets through - also on municipal level ...


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## mepossem

well.. living in Spain I sort of adopt the local language - and I suppose most people do?

anyway, why can' t everyone speak 11 languages? Should and would make the place a lot more interesting.


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## xabiaxica

mepossem said:


> well.. living in Spain I sort of adopt the local language - and I suppose most people do?
> 
> anyway, why can' t everyone speak 11 languages? Should and would make the place a lot more interesting.


yes, a lot of us do

but all posts on the forum must be in English - check the rules............


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Something that we all know and have all said.
> But without talk there is nothing, I think you'd agree.
> 
> Think of it the other way round. If they professed to represent the people, but not talk to them, and on top of that proceeded to make changes, implement laws etc that favoured themselves without taking into account public opinion, where would we be then? Does it sound familiar? Oh yes, silly me, it's the system we're working under now!
> They may **** up later on when they try to implement changes, but they're not there yet and how the hell do you expect them to be at that stage after a few weeks? First things first.
> And they will **** up, they will make mistakes, but who are we to tell them "You might as well give up now, before you make a fool of yourself".
> My point is don't criticise them for doing something right!
> If people don't want to take part, fine, but don't pull something to pieces from the sidelines.
> Talking never harmed anyone, out of acorns do big trees grow, don't try to clip their wings, never look a gift horse in the mouth. OOps! Sorry, I think that last one can be deleted


As far as I know, no-one has told them to give up. Far from it. What I'm saying is take your ideas to a place where they can be effective. That's what I have said to our local guys.
Implementing changes...again, they are not in a position to implement changes and won't be until they get into the structures where they can make their voices heard - the political parties.
None of that is criticism, it's advice. And I'm taking part. I'm not on the sidelines.
Going on the streets is valuable and fun but by itself it will achieve nothing.
As for talk: don't let's kid ourselves that this movement has the overwhelming support of the Spanish people. Recent elections show what the majority want at present: a swing to the right, Gawd help us.
I think there is very little wrong with the current democratic system. Whatever form democracy comes in, it's a tool. Nothing more, nothing less. It has to be put to work to do a job.
The young are being hard hit here but so are the older people and by the same forces. AS I said to our local DRY gathering last week; yo soy tambien indignada...indignada anciana!!
I shall do what I have been doing since I realised that real changes will be made by working within the system as well as by enjoying the fun and solidarity of the streets. I've had experience of both and I know which gets real results which affexct people's lives for the better.
So to sum up: no-one is criticising, no-one is telling them they are wrong and I'm certainly not pulling them to pieces from the sidelines.
I'm suggesting that the best and only way to change the rules in a democracy is to join a team and win the game.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> I was just about to reply to meopossems comment which has been deleted for, I think, not being in English. Although I agree with that as it makes life simpler the content in this particular case was relevant and very important. I hope the moderator will not object but in English it said
> "Announced the reform of the Electoral Act to divide Madrid autonomous districts, as is the case on the Balearic Islands, Murcia and Asturias, and lists open to enable citizens to know their representatives and have more control over them. Switching to a non-locked list "a milestone in the Spanish democracy." Reform has to be called consensus, which would implement the new electoral law in the next election."
> Now if the effect of DRy, 15th or the so called Spanish revolution has been to bring about this change I can only applaud them. I have a feeling that this was probably in the planning stage for quite a while and they may have triggered a more rapid implementation. Whatever the case its a major step forward.


Yes, it is important although in itself it won't have a magic wand effect.
The UK party system is also a kind of locked list, of course....Chief reason for people accepting that is the cost of mounting an effective electoral campaign even in the Twitter age.
Any system of democracy is a tool to use to achieve an end, it is not an end in itself.
But as I repeat : you have to use the structures available.
How likely is it that this proposal will pass into law before the election? Does it have the backing of the main Parties?


----------



## mepossem

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, it is important although in itself it won't have a magic wand effect.
> The UK party system is also a kind of locked list, of course....Chief reason for people accepting that is the cost of mounting an effective electoral campaign even in the Twitter age.
> Any system of democracy is a tool to use to achieve an end, it is not an end in itself.
> But as I repeat : you have to use the structures available.
> How likely is it that this proposal will pass into law before the election? Does it have the backing of the main Parties?


the Madrid Comunidad can change the law in Madrid  and if Esperanza dictates it ... you bet it will pass. PSOE and IU are just simply sideshows in Madrid after the last elections. And she must know what her people agree upon.


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## Happyexpat

This may appear to be off thread but actually it is fundamental to it. I think we ALL agree that greed, corruption, money, and the need for energy are at the root of the problems, politics for the moment aside.
Now we are told that we are running out of oil, the price is going up and we are intervening and spending millions in places where we maybe shouldn't mainly because they have that dwindling resource.
I have just come across a new word to me, _abiotic_, it turns out that oil may be in fact a renewable energy source. Try googling abiotic oil. Up to recently this has been a crackpot theory held by a few but a Swedish team claim to have proved it to be true. If so wouldn't this put a whole different complection on financial systems, government etc. If it is accurate my next question would have to be why is nothing being done or said about it. By the way this is not yet another conspricay theory, there are hard facts to support the discussion...


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> This may appear to be off thread but actually it is fundamental to it. I think we ALL agree that greed, corruption, money, and the need for energy are at the root of the problems, politics for the moment aside.
> Now we are told that we are running out of oil, the price is going up and we are intervening and spending millions in places where we maybe shouldn't mainly because they have that dwindling resource.
> I have just come across a new word to me, _abiotic_, it turns out that oil may be in fact a renewable energy source. Try googling abiotic oil. Up to recently this has been a crackpot theory held by a few but a Swedish team claim to have proved it to be true. If so wouldn't this put a whole different complection on financial systems, government etc. If it is accurate my next question would have to be why is nothing being done or said about it. By the way this is not yet another conspricay theory, there are hard facts to support the discussion...


The vices you mention in your first sentence will always be with us as they are part of the human condition.
What is different about the current situation is that an ideology is directing world affairs via the transnational institutions, one which sees the free market and liberal democracy as the one-size-fits-all solution to the world's problems.
Combine this with greed etc. and the resulting mixture is volitile and dangerous.
This abiotic oil thing sounds interesting, I'll read later.


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## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> the Madrid Comunidad can change the law in Madrid  and if Esperanza dictates it ... you bet it will pass. PSOE and IU are just simply sideshows in Madrid after the last elections. And she must know what her people agree upon.


Hmmm. The PP seems an unlikely agent for bringing about the objectives of 15M and DRY.
What , I wonder, do they think they will get out of such a change?.


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## mepossem

mrypg9 said:


> Hmmm. The PP seems an unlikely agent for bringing about the objectives of 15M and DRY.
> What , I wonder, do they think they will get out of such a change?.


you re forgetting the different families in the PP -and I am sure Esperanza has something against the Pharaoh


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## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> you re forgetting the different families in the PP -and I am sure Esperanza has something against the Pharaoh


But that doesn't answer my question...


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## mepossem

oh well - it does!

the Pharaoh is Ruiz Gallardón (how do you translate a name so they don' t ban this part?), the mayor of Madrid and Esperanza y and him loath each other.

If she has promoted this idea, it must be that she feels she can win something with it. Everyone knows Alberto is off to the national government when the PP wins. And who controls Radio and TV Madrid? Yes, Esperanza. so ...

The whole thing is quite interesting, as I am working on a course for a Spanish business school on marketing for politicians. Do you go for local marketing or trust the TV to do it all for you?

I am setting up a radio station in Alicante in an area that could be called PPlandia. And still I believe that - in Cabo Huertas - there is an immense possibility for an alternative. So - off to work.

You really should follow the internal fights in the PP (El Confidencial, diario de información en español is a good source), e.g. at the moment with Ripoll and the campistas. Interesting.

May we live in interesting times


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mepossem said:


> oh well - it does!
> 
> the Pharaoh is Ruiz Gallardón (how do you translate a name so they don' t ban this part?), the mayor of Madrid and Esperanza y and him loath each other.
> 
> If she has promoted this idea, it must be that she feels she can win something with it. Everyone knows Alberto is off to the national government when the PP wins. And who controls Radio and TV Madrid? Yes, Esperanza. so ...
> 
> The whole thing is quite interesting, as I am working on a course for a Spanish business school on marketing for politicians. Do you go for local marketing or trust the TV to do it all for you?
> 
> I am setting up a radio station in Alicante in an area that could be called PPlandia. And still I believe that - in Cabo Huertas - there is an immense possibility for an alternative. So - off to work.
> 
> You really should follow the internal fights in the PP (El Confidencial, diario de información en español is a good source), e.g. at the moment with Ripoll and the campistas. Interesting.
> 
> May we live in interesting times


I haven't read all the posts today, but referring to Espe's proposal the words *jump *and *bandwagon *come to mind. And also, as you point out, the rivalary between her and Gallardon is all too important in Madrid politics.

An alternative is always possible, and necessary, wherever you are - as long as you don't expect overnight success, so good luck with your ideas.


----------



## mepossem

Pesky Wesky said:


> I haven't read all the posts today, but referring to Espe's proposal the words *jump *and *bandwagon *come to mind. And also, as you point out, the rivalary between her and Gallardon is all too important in Madrid politics.
> 
> An alternative is always possible, and necessary, wherever you are - as long as you don't expect overnight success, so good luck with your ideas.



the alternative is actually more of a study project  but with students doing the work  As the victorians said: it's not important to work, it's important you make work! :ranger:


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## mrypg9

mepossem;542652The whole thing is quite interesting said:


> Marketing for politicians, eh???
> So it's come to Spain at last.
> I remember some twenty years ago as a candidate in the UK being sent on a course with the grand title 'Training to Win'.
> After the course I had my hair done and bought a whole new wardrobe...tweeds and Barbour jacket for country campaigning, smart suits for town.
> I didn't get elected -it was a hopeless seat for my Party - but I had lots of nice new clothes in my wardrobe and a new hairstyle.....
> The phrases 'silk purse' and 'sow's ear' come to mind for some reason...


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## mepossem

I didn' t know the Monster Raving Party had a budget for courses!

Nw sincerely: most is done inhouse here in Spain. Sadly enough. 
If and when Esperanza's idea is accepted, you will see an enormous interest in local electioneering.

And I don' think that's a bad idea.


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## Happyexpat

I am in Andalucia at the moment and after talking to people here the bet is that it will remain Socialist at the next election. No surprise really as it always seems to go opposite to the general trend.


----------



## mepossem

Happyexpat said:


> I am in Andalucia at the moment and after talking to people here the bet is that it will remain Socialist at the next election. No surprise really as it always seems to go opposite to the general trend.


It being Andalucía, Spain or whatever village?

hmmm as far as Andalucía is concerned, I think the PSOE is already hiding papers  and getting ready to get out. October or March? Anyone's guess but check El Confidencial, diario de información en español regularly ...


----------



## Alcalaina

Happyexpat said:


> I am in Andalucia at the moment and after talking to people here the bet is that it will remain Socialist at the next election. No surprise really as it always seems to go opposite to the general trend.


The PP made considerable gains in the local elections across Andalucia last month and now hold every provincial capital. But in many cases this was down to disillusioned socialists voting for the IU instead of PSOE, thus splitting the left vote. 

I hope they see sense and don't let the PP in next year - the Junta has an impressive record for health and social care and these would be the first areas the PP would cut back on.


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## mepossem

the old PSOE system: don t let the cost cutters in (read: otherwise our bank accounts will suffer).

The Valencia region, the Castilla y León region, the Madrid region: all have health systems that are extremely good. The Madrid one is - at a lower cost - vastly superior to the one Castilla La Mancha has.

After some 30 years I would think it is about time someone else takes charge. Might be interesting ....


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## mepossem

well, 15M just lost the argument in Barcelona ...

just check spanish papers on it.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> I am in Andalucia at the moment and after talking to people here the bet is that it will remain Socialist at the next election. No surprise really as it always seems to go opposite to the general trend.



You think so? My PSOE branch doesn't. 
In this area the PP swept the Board on May 22nd. 
PSOE is resigned to losing next year.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mepossem said:


> well, 15M just lost the argument in Barcelona ...
> 
> just check spanish papers on it.


I'm not sure what you mean by lost the argument. 

There were some protests in Barcelona and other parts of Spain yesterday in front of places like the Catalan Parliament. There were some violent episodes. There are variuos interpretations of these episodes


The 15 M movement is a violent group
Some of the people protesting got carried away and were violent therefore 15 M is losing control over its "members"
The people who were violent are puposely planted by the govenment or governmental agencies to cause disruption in this, and other similar movements.
The people causing these problems are nothing to do with 15 M nor the government
Well, these are theories I'm familiar with.

Here's a link to a short video which shows the problematic group, how they were easily isolated by other protesters and how they were given police protection to leave the area. It seems to illustrate one of the above points...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmvzRvsf8g


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by lost the argument.
> 
> There were some protests in Barcelona and other parts of Spain yesterday in front of places like the Catalan Parliament. There were some violent episodes. There are variuos interpretations of these episodes
> 
> 
> The 15 M movement is a violent group
> Some of the people protesting got carried away and were violent therefore 15 M is losing control over its "members"
> The people who were violent are puposely planted by the govenment or governmental agencies to cause disruption in this, and other similar movements.
> The people causing these problems are nothing to do with 15 M nor the government
> Well, these are theories I'm familiar with.
> 
> Here's a link to a short video which shows the problematic group, how they were easily isolated by other protesters and how they were given police protection to leave the area. It seems to illustrate one of the above points...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmvzRvsf8g


well well well...............................


----------



## Happyexpat

It has all got very confusing. I actually think that DRy was a non violent activist group with good intentions unfortunately made up of various factions. Control over factions always tends to be problematical.
In addition whenever or wherever a demonstration takes place there are those radical violent groups which see it as an opportunity. These are not controllable by the original organisers but unfortunately get 'lumped in' by the media with the main group.
I think the idea that agitators are placed within a demonstration by Government agencies leads us in to the area of conspiracy theory. I do however know and suspect that officers are infiltrated into organisations not to cause trouble but to obtain intelligence which, in theory, allows the authorities to react with minimum force and plan ahead.
Falling apart it is but that was and is as predicted by many of us in the forum. Like I have said many times history can teach us a lot and we really should learn from it, not just ignore it.


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> It has all got very confusing. I actually think that DRy was a non violent activist group with good intentions unfortunately made up of various factions. Control over factions always tends to be problematical.
> In addition whenever or wherever a demonstration takes place there are those radical violent groups which see it as an opportunity. These are not controllable by the original organisers but unfortunately get 'lumped in' by the media with the main group.
> I think the idea that agitators are placed within a demonstration by Government agencies leads us in to the area of conspiracy theory. I do however know and suspect that officers are infiltrated into organisations not to cause trouble but to obtain intelligence which, in theory, allows the authorities to react with minimum force and plan ahead.
> Falling apart it is but that was and is as predicted by many of us in the forum. Like I have said many times history can teach us a lot and we really should learn from it, not just ignore it.


And thus your suggestion is that they should all go home, if they have one, and rot while the spanish crooks and political incompetents rape their country? Very constructive 

If you think it (??) is falling apart just wait till they bring Barcelona and Madrid to a standstill - and we will I can assure you


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by lost the argument.
> 
> There were some protests in Barcelona and other parts of Spain yesterday in front of places like the Catalan Parliament. There were some violent episodes. There are variuos interpretations of these episodes
> 
> 
> The 15 M movement is a violent group
> Some of the people protesting got carried away and were violent therefore 15 M is losing control over its "members"
> The people who were violent are puposely planted by the govenment or governmental agencies to cause disruption in this, and other similar movements.
> The people causing these problems are nothing to do with 15 M nor the government
> Well, these are theories I'm familiar with.
> 
> Here's a link to a short video which shows the problematic group, how they were easily isolated by other protesters and how they were given police protection to leave the area. It seems to illustrate one of the above points...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcmvzRvsf8g


Been taken down !


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## mepossem

gus-lopez said:


> Been taken down !



you can find it on elmundo and elpais.

the video in itself is quite basic. some people (policemen) are shown who were in the crowd and got separated. Seems (and so do the sindicatos of the police) normal police work, they find out how the crowd turns. 

Strangely enough the movement did NOT post the video where they tried to take the guide dog away of one of the parlamentarios, where they were pouring water or coffee over them, retaining them, etc ...


----------



## mrypg9

All large-scale protests carry within them the risk of violence from various sources. Nothing new, sadly.
PW has listed some of them.
Right-wing and left-wing thugs.....no distinction. They go to cause trouble. 
I've seen both in action...scum.


----------



## mepossem

what about middle class thugs?


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## jojo

mepossem said:


> what about middle class thugs?


Right wing or left wing thugs could be middle class - who knows and what does it matter??? We're talking about wings, not class!

Jo xxx


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## mepossem

hmmm middle wings then?


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## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> what about middle class thugs?



'Thugs' is a generic term.
I don't ask people what class they belong to when they commit violent acts.
Does anyone?
Do you?


----------



## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> hmmm middle wings then?


For someone who has posted that he considers forum life to be inferior to 'real life' you make some rather pointless posts, if I may say so!
Have you no work to do?
Before you ask, no, I don't.
I'm one of life's idle set.


----------



## mrypg9

Now..to be serious...
Interesting article in last week's 'Economist' about Mercadona.
It seems all their staff are on permanent contracts, receive regular performance-related bonuses and receive comprehensive training.
Result: per capita Mercadona employees achieve 18% more sales than the staff of other supermarket chains...
I think that was the correct figure....said copy of 'The Economist' is on the terrace and I'm forbidden to go downstairs until the floors are dry...


----------



## mepossem

yes have a job but usually type out replies between calls - actually an interesting murder case in Alicante province today. But read through the 1200 pages of the file in a few hours, after all, once you' ve seen one file .... :-(

QUE HORROR!

and putting info in 2 other local forums, but they don' t seem to have so many unemployed as are here ... 



anyhow - standard: as a company you invest loads of time and money in your personnel. Keeping them on short term contracts is ridiculous. As I am used to say to people when taking them on: if I want to kick you out I will in any case.

Corte Inglés does the same.

Ages ago in Madrid, they were really fed up with one guy. No way to kick him out since he was Trade Union representative.
So it went on and on. Till someone hit upon an idea, reading the personnel file. Next week they transferred him to a sales point where he, his ex wife and his present wife would be working side by side. After 2 hours he came up and asked to be fired ...

You see ... Quien hace la ley hace la trampa (There's something similar what Lord Lever said some 50 years ago?) - there's always a backdoor ....



ps do you also like these little emoticons?

.lane:


----------



## mepossem

mrypg9 said:


> For someone who has posted that he considers forum life to be inferior to 'real life' you make some rather pointless posts, if I may say so!
> Have you no work to do?
> Before you ask, no, I don't.
> I'm one of life's idle set.


come on, real life is a lot more fun! Sun is shining, where I have the office swimming pool is full - where are the bikini clad girls on this forum?


----------



## jojo

mepossem said:


> come on, real life is a lot more fun! Sun is shining, where I have the office swimming pool is full - where are the bikini clad girls on this forum?


you've scared em off!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## mepossem

with or without bikinis?


----------



## mrypg9

mepossem said:


> yes have a job but usually type out replies between calls - actually an interesting murder case in Alicante province today. But read through the 1200 pages of the file in a few hours, after all, once you' ve seen one file .... :-(
> 
> QUE HORROR!
> 
> and putting info in 2 other local forums, but they don' t seem to have so many unemployed as are here ...
> 
> 
> 
> anyhow - standard: as a company you invest loads of time and money in your personnel. Keeping them on short term contracts is ridiculous. As I am used to say to people when taking them on: if I want to kick you out I will in any case.
> 
> Corte Inglés does the same.
> 
> Ages ago in Madrid, they were really fed up with one guy. No way to kick him out since he was Trade Union representative.
> So it went on and on. Till someone hit upon an idea, reading the personnel file. Next week they transferred him to a sales point where he, his ex wife and his present wife would be working side by side. After 2 hours he came up and asked to be fired ...
> 
> You see ... Quien hace la ley hace la trampa (There's something similar what Lord Lever said some 50 years ago?) - there's always a backdoor ....
> 
> 
> 
> ps do you also like these little emoticons?
> 
> .lane:


Yes, I like your little emoticons.Very sweet. There are several available for use on this forum as you may have seen.
I think you will find that the people posting frequently here are not 'unemployed'.
They are like me: retired and able to spend their days as they wish.
In our case, we were able to retire early as we owned businesses which we sold.
So I know a bit about how to treat your staff to get the best out of them as they helped earn our current idle lifestyle.


*As I am used to say to people when taking them on: if I want to kick you out I will in any case.*....your quote.

This kind of would-be 'macho' management -could it be the Weltanschaung of the middle class thug, perchance? - is a recipe for potential disaster and would not be considered a useful management tool by successful businesspeople.


----------



## mepossem

quote

This kind of would-be 'macho' management -could it be the Weltanschaung of the middle class thug, perchance? - is a recipe for potential disaster and would not be considered a useful management tool by successful businesspeople.
unquote


no macho here 
but people need long term contracts to get loans, to get houses, cars etc.

so ... I give it to them. But make clear it is not a 'licence to do whatever they want'. Stated with a low voice, just making the point. Of the obvious. Works for me ... and them.


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## Happyexpat

*Not a suggestion but more a comment*

No I don't think they should go home. I think, as I have always said, they should organise within the system, politically and fight corruption and greed from inside. Street protests are for a moment in time not for a long term future. As for bringing Barcelona and Madrid to a standstill that will be really great for an already weak economy and, I'm afraid for me, is irresponsible. Actually I was trying to be constructive by suggesting an historically proven way forward for them rather than the destructive way they appear to be going down.
QUOTE=nigele2;544408]And thus your suggestion is that they should all go home, if they have one, and rot while the spanish crooks and political incompetents rape their country? Very constructive 

If you think it (??) is falling apart just wait till they bring Barcelona and Madrid to a standstill - and we will I can assure you [/QUOTE]


----------



## nigele2

Happyexpat said:


> ......As for bringing Barcelona and Madrid to a standstill that will be really great for an already weak economy .............. an historically proven way forward for them rather than the destructive way they appear to be going down.................


There have been spaniards who have tried to work within the system. They have tried for 30 years. And where has that got the spanish? 

If the constitution and infrastructure, the very fabric of society is broken there is no point working from within. 

It is like a house that has been badly designed and built by cowboys, the base materials not suitable for the job. Yes you can patch it up, replace bits, get by, ignore the cracks ......... but eventually it falls down. The sooner it falls down and you rebuild from firm foundations the better.

So far from irresponsible these 'indignados' are being very responsible. They are demolishing the condemned building and putting sound foundations down for future generations (sadly their lives will never be given back ).

I would also like to respond to this naive attitude commonly expressed here that you need a fully documented, detailed, costed, resourced, fully comprehensive plan (translated into English ) before it is deemed correct that you complain about your life having been taken from you by corrupt elements of society.

Clearly this is rubbish. There have been many examples in history where people have created a very workable constitution. They have then handed this to society and allowed those who are builders to build, those who are doctors to cure, those who are cooks to cook, and those who are politicians to politic. However the people who build the constitution (in the case of DRY based on honesty, transparency and democracy) do not need to be expert builders, doctors, cooks or politicians.

Well enough from me. I need to support my family with their demolition and rebuild project lane:


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> There have been spaniards who have tried to work within the system. They have tried for 30 years. And where has that got the spanish?
> 
> If the constitution and infrastructure, the very fabric of society is broken there is no point working from within.
> 
> It is like a house that has been badly designed and built by cowboys, the base materials not suitable for the job. Yes you can patch it up, replace bits, get by, ignore the cracks ......... but eventually it falls down. The sooner it falls down and you rebuild from firm foundations the better.
> 
> So far from irresponsible these 'indignados' are being very responsible. They are demolishing the condemned building and putting sound foundations down for future generations (sadly their lives will never be given back ).
> 
> I would also like to respond to this naive attitude commonly expressed here that you need a fully documented, detailed, costed, resourced, fully comprehensive plan (translated into English ) before it is deemed correct that you complain about your life having been taken from you by corrupt elements of society.
> 
> Clearly this is rubbish. There have been many examples in history where people have created a very workable constitution. They have then handed this to society and allowed those who are builders to build, those who are doctors to cure, those who are cooks to cook, and those who are politicians to politic. However the people who build the constitution (in the case of DRY based on honesty, transparency and democracy) do not need to be expert builders, doctors, cooks or politicians.
> 
> Well enough from me. I need to support my family with their demolition and rebuild project lane:



Sorry, Nigel, but even when you are sure of your destination (which the indignados aren't, they are a diverse bunch of anarchists, socialists, idealists...even right-wingers ) you need a route map to help you reach that destination.
What are the examples from history you refer to? A good counter-example is the Paris Commune which ended in bloodshed and reaction.
We all want to see the current system demolished and replaced with a society whose economy is organised for the benefit of the many, not the few.
But the current system is unbelievably complex and interwoven.
We all want our wages/pensions/whatever to be paid and our currency to be good when we go shopping. For this we depend on the efficacy of the banks.
Changes will not occur overnight. Careful planning is needed and only experts can design and operate the mechanisms required for change to take place without meltdown.
One hopeful sign is the decision of Osborne to separate retail from investment banking. This is quite a huge step in the right direction. My dil points out this will mean a return to bank charges in the retail sector to which I replied: 'So? I'd rather pay as I do in Spain and offshore than have my money risked in speculative transactions'.
If the Robin Hood tax were implemented that would be a further step. Several EU states -France for one -have expressed interest.


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry, Nigel, but even when you are sure of your destination (which the indignados aren't, they are a diverse bunch of anarchists, socialists, idealists...even right-wingers )


Ah the old politician problem - can't label them. Heavens there's not the possibility that they are a cross section of the people  

Maybe they include all those groups. Of course if you wanted to understand them you might see them slightly differently :

Qualified unemployed
Unqualified unemployed
Mothers who feed their children lentils
People living in fear of eviction from their homes
30+ year olds living with their parents and living off their pensions
and just people sick of the old political school telling them that they should shut up and lump it.

But if you did that then where would all your political theory be 

I give up Mary. I'll leave you to it. There's a war going on and despite the old establishment saying you can't - we can - and we will


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## Alcalaina

I'm with Nigel on this issue. This movement is now way deeper than some disgruntled kids camping in public places. It is gaining strength, depth and authority every day.

I've been reading a new book called _Indignados_ published by Mandala Ediciones with contributions from a wide range of respected writers including economists Eduard Punset and José Luis Sampedro, You can download it here:

15M, indignados, spanish revolution, puerta del sol, acampados, toma la calle, democracia real, - Política - Varios


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry, Nigel, but even when you are sure of your destination (which the indignados aren't, they are a diverse bunch of anarchists, socialists, idealists...even right-wingers ) you need a route map to help you reach that destination.
> What are the examples from history you refer to? A good counter-example is the Paris Commune which ended in bloodshed and reaction.
> We all want to see the current system demolished and replaced with a society whose economy is organised for the benefit of the many, not the few.
> But the current system is unbelievably complex and interwoven.
> We all want our wages/pensions/whatever to be paid and our currency to be good when we go shopping. For this we depend on the efficacy of the banks.
> Changes will not occur overnight. Careful planning is needed and only experts can design and operate the mechanisms required for change to take place without meltdown.
> One hopeful sign is the decision of Osborne to separate retail from investment banking. This is quite a huge step in the right direction. My dil points out this will mean a return to bank charges in the retail sector to which I replied: 'So? I'd rather pay as I do in Spain and offshore than have my money risked in speculative transactions'.
> If the Robin Hood tax were implemented that would be a further step. Several EU states -France for one -have expressed interest.


If the Robin Hood tax was implemented the customers would be the ones who end up paying for it. It would be passed straight on , by increasing charges , lowering rates or anything else they could think up , regardless of any rules brought in.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I'm with Nigel on this issue. This movement is now way deeper than some disgruntled kids camping in public places. It is gaining strength, depth and authority every day.
> 
> I've been reading a new book called _Indignados_ published by Mandala Ediciones with contributions from a wide range of respected writers including economists Eduard Punset and José Luis Sampedro, You can download it here:
> 
> 15M, indignados, spanish revolution, puerta del sol, acampados, toma la calle, democracia real, - Política - Varios


Thanks for the reference.
Anything by Punset is worth reading


----------



## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> If the Robin Hood tax was implemented the customers would be the ones who end up paying for it. It would be passed straight on , by increasing charges , lowering rates or anything else they could think up , regardless of any rules brought in.


That's the whole idea!! It's a tax on speculative transactions not every-day retail banking.
I don't do many of them....
In other words, taxing those who contributed to our current problems which surely has to be a Very Good Thing.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I'm with Nigel on this issue. This movement is now way deeper than some disgruntled kids camping in public places. It is gaining strength, depth and authority every day.
> 
> I've been reading a new book called _Indignados_ published by Mandala Ediciones with contributions from a wide range of respected writers including economists Eduard Punset and José Luis Sampedro, You can download it here:
> 
> 15M, indignados, spanish revolution, puerta del sol, acampados, toma la calle, democracia real, - Política - Varios


Well, we all want to see changes. But it won't come in the short term and won't happen at all unless those with their hands on the levers of power are persuaded.
At the risk of being labelled a gloom-mongerer which I'm not I remember 1968. So much hope that achieved nothing but reaction.
More people voted PP in Andalucia than all the protestors in public squares. A sobering fact.
Moving towards an economy based on the needs of society won't come about without careful planning with the support of the majority. It's not just a matter of one Government adopting a different policy.
Globalisation has got us all tangled in its net. The knock-on effect from a Greek structured default (which seems the likely outcome) will affect every EU state as so many banks and national Treasuries are exposed to Greek debt.
The ECB is after all a conglomeration of national central banks and the ECB has not only loaned Greece big money but is doubly exposed because it has purchased Greek bonds to stimulate the market.
If this were China, several prominent people would have been put up against a wall and shot.
I'm not in favour of capital punishment but......


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## mepossem

Reading this comment, I am reminded of a discussion going on in Brussels (you know ...) where a socialist mayor is complaining there is NO security problem, all is an exaggeration etc.

Reaction of the Minister: Security is like fresh air: whether you are on the right or on the left, you' re entitled to it.

On the basis of what happened under Aznar, my idea is the PP (and, more importantly, Spaniards are convinced) are more competent on economic and financial matters.


Somewhere read today that they are going to change the system (PSOE proposal) and national exams for teachers. All well, until you realize it was a PP proposal, and ... Pepiño hasn' t even been a year at university - though he is now a big Psoe Minister. Sort of ...


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## Happyexpat

I cannot see why this has to be diversive. We actually all seem to agree on the fundamental problems, we all seem to agree on the need for the younger element to do something about it. We also, in the main, agree on the 'general' changes needed. What we don't all agree with is the way to do it.
A group which is a collective of smaller groups who each wish to retain their own agenda, their own identity and their own members is, bluntly, going to go nowhere fast. If the smaller groups are absorbed into the larger group and speak with one voice, be it on the street or in Parliment, then they have a good chance of success. This is basic secondary school sociology!
I'm afraid I am going to repeat a comment which I made earlier as it has been ignored. "It is irresponsible to take action like bringing important commercial centres to a standstill when the economy is so fragile". The talk is of supporting the poor, the underprivaleged, even starving people, actions such have been suggested will badly effect them in the short term much more than the rich and powerful and this has always been the case. The long term effect to the system will in the end probably be minimal, so the suffering will have been wasted.
Yes the political systems right across the world stink, yes they need changing but the actual foundations are strong having been developed over 2000 plus years. To attempt to change the fundamental democratic system with nothing better to replace it beggars belief.
In my opinion, it is far better to get organised without making too much noise, select the right people to run the organisation, the right people to promote it, the right people to put up for election, the right program, the right publicity and then make a lot of noise.
It has been said on this thread that people are looking forward to going on to the streets which I find frightening, it isn't a game, it isn't fun, it isn't a case of winning a battle its a case of potentially losing credibility, public support and any chance of changing a system which has lost its way.


----------



## jimenato

:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Alcalaina

> To attempt to change the fundamental democratic system with nothing better to replace it beggars belief.


But that's the whole point ... the system we have is clearly rotten to the core and must be replaced. There ARE alternatives, they have been set out and they are achievable, but people have to believe they are achievable and then be prepared to take action.

DRY are committed to non-violent protest, that is a given. But of course there will be sporadic outbreaks, especially when police fire rubber bullets at them. Unless you are Gandhi, everyone has a breaking point. 

You can't just sit and do nothing, some direct action is necessary. For example, a mass movement to settle homeless people into empty properties, which were repossessed by the banks responsible for making them homeless, would be a good start.


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat;545501


> "It is irresponsible to take action like bringing important commercial centres to a standstill when the economy is so fragile".


I, and DRY agree. That's why it's taking place on a *Sunday* Happy.

If the place comes to a standstill not a lot of "damage" will be done. 
If there are so many people taking part that said standstill takes place it should IMO be a matter of arty::whoo:arty:

And not

 :nono: 

PS Every week there are demonstrations in Madrid, as I'm sure you're aware, that bring the centre at least, to a standstill called by anybody from cleaners to firefighters, unions to farmers.


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## Happyexpat

Ok can we take that a bit further on two points. "There are alternatives ( I assume to democracy)". Now I am not sure what these are or where they have been "presented". All I have seen so far are generalities on the current problems without actual specific proposed solutions. Probably I have missed something and I would be pleased to see the information if you could tell me where it is.

I accept the comment on DRy being committed to no violence but what is DRy.......a collective of disgruntled groups (in many cases rightly so) purporting to be, at the moment, under one banner. Unfortunately some of those groups don't share the collectives excellent no violence attitude, in fact just the opposite. This will, as you so rightly say, maybe end up with rubber bullets bouncing all over the place but who is truly to blame, DRy, groups within DRy, groups outside DRy but hiding behind them, the police, the Government or maybe everybody for letting it happen knowing beforehand what the result would be.......

Finally your idea about the banks letting homeless people have their properties is morally superb. The present crisis would be nothing compared to the financial disaster if that happened and the banks lost their so called reserves which co-incidently seem yet again to be in property at an inflated market price! 

When I read what I have written I know its sounds cynical and pessemistic but it it isn't meant to be. Times are hard, they will probably get harder BUT IT WILL improve, it always does, usually on a 14 year cycle. The theory is that we might have another year or two on the downslope but then its a nice slow 7 year ish ride to and at the top. Oh yes almost forgot, its then, of course down again at some stage. Stupid isn't it!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> It has been said on this thread that people are looking forward to going on to the streets which I find frightening, it isn't a game, it isn't fun, it isn't a case of winning a battle its a case of potentially losing credibility, public support and any chance of changing a system which has lost its way.


I'm really not sure how you mean this last comment, but I find it quite insulting.
If you are suggesting that I am treating this as a game then you, as I have thought all along, really don't know what this is all about.
As I have said before get information, get involved and then give opinions - opinions about what is happening, not what you think is happening, and what you think peoples feelings and attitudes are.
I happen to think we are talking about my *life* here; mine, my husband's, my daughter's and all my inlaws, nephews etc who live here, because I *live* here, I'm not just renting a space, I'm sowing my future here. 
Sorry if this is coming over as very pompous, but I think you just lit the fuse...


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm really not sure how you mean this last comment, but I find it quite insulting.
> If you are suggesting that I am treating this as a game then you, as I have thought all along, really don't know what this is all about.
> As I have said before get information, get involved and then give opinions - opinions about what is happening, not what you think is happening, and what you think peoples feelings and attitudes are.
> I happen to think we are talking about my *life* here; mine, my husband's, my daughter's and all my inlaws, nephews etc who live here, because I *live* here, I'm not just renting a space, I'm sowing my future here.
> Sorry if this is coming over as very pompous, but I think you just lit the fuse...


  You cant beat politics, religion and money can you!!! :juggle:

Jo xxx


----------



## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm really not sure how you mean this last comment, but I find it quite insulting.
> If you are suggesting that I am treating this as a game then you, as I have thought all along, really don't know what this is all about.
> As I have said before get information, get involved and then give opinions - opinions about what is happening, not what you think is happening, and what you think peoples feelings and attitudes are.
> I happen to think we are talking about my *life* here; mine, my husband's, my daughter's and all my inlaws, nephews etc who live here, because I *live* here, I'm not just renting a space, I'm sowing my future here.
> Sorry if this is coming over as very pompous, but I think you just lit the fuse...


Pesky anyone who says "I assume to democracy?" is so far off topic that I wouldn't bother. 

But the final paragraph of HappyExpats post says it all. Yes I know you are starving, jobless and with no future but if you hang around for 7 years it will get better and then worse again. He should have had a career in politics 

Sorry happyexpat but that post IMHO is just full of establishment drivel. 

ps Alcalaina your idea of letting the homeless use empty buildings is very sound. In my UK village I am surrounded by 3 houses owned by a landlord. If any of them stay empty for 6 months then the council move tenants in. If it was actioned in Spain it would not lead to world collapse - just a lot of happier healthier people. And the buildings being maintained. But we wouldn't want that would we?


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## Happyexpat

Well Pesky Wesky it wasn't meant to be insulting and I am not even sure who commented about 'looking forward to the demo' so it also wasn't aimed at any particular member of the thread. It seems a shame that you have felt it was directed at you.
I suppose I should also take exception to the comment 'as I thought all along you really don't know what all this is about' but I would suggest that maybe I do understand it more than you think. I am not blind to problems but look intelligently for a long term solution rather than short term staged events which serve no purpose except for disruption and chaos which can easily lead to anarchy. So the demo is on a Sunday. I am sure the small traders and market stall holders who rely on the trade on a Sunday from the Spanish and tourists will be delighted and sympathetic to the cause. It also needs to be pointed out that continuing demonstrations put tourists off and Spain is trying to build that up again.
It is interesting to note that generally (not always) demonstrations are made up of people under 35 while politics are made up of those over 35. Often these people are made up from 'original' activists who have realised, as has been said by many in this thread, that change must come from within not shouting about it outside. Maybe it is an age and experience thing which is a shame as younger people in politics would be a considerable advantage.
I always try to keep personalities out of a discussion, everybody is entitled, in my opinion, to an opinion whether it be wrong or right, biased or unbiased. If you remember in my post I asked for the practical alternatives to democracy suggested in a previous post which has not been answered. If there is a viable one, which I don't think there is, I would be delighted for you to tell me, and I guess others, about it.
Hopefully your fuse has now been extinguished and I can assure you mine, on a personal level, was never lit!
I just simply don't agree with how you / DRy are going about things but do agree with what I think and hope you / they are overall trying to do, improve the system!

Jojo is right You can't beat politics, religion and money. Beats me why people get so uptight about them, more trouble is caused by those three than anything else in the world and nothing ever changes........


----------



## mrypg9

Let's get back to things as they are not as we'd all like them to be.
Some points to bear in mind: 

last autumn's general strike was a huge flop;
the Spanish electorate have turned massively to the PP;
M15 and Dry are a disparate group of anarchists, socialists,Trotskyites, centrists, left-wingers with no common goal or idea of what their preferred social structure should be.

It's silly to start personal attacks over this as we all want change. I want the current market society to be replaced by a social market economy along the 'Rhineland' model. 
Why? Because it works, at least when compared to other models such as the unregulated free market and a centrally planned economy. It combines economic efficiency with social justice and worker participation in the running of the enterprises in which they work.

This European model, with its roots in Catholic social tradition and a generally more collective view of society is one which I believe has deep roots in Spain and which the people will not easily give up.

The first step to be taken is to reform the IMF - a Director from a non-European state is required here ...the Mexican guy whose name I forget...
Then break the power of the markets over Treasury bonds so that Governments wishing to implement full employment policies and a decent social wage can do so without running the risk of their bond yields hitting the roof.
I have no idea how you do that but it must be done.

The plain fact is that technocrats and managers are needed for all this to happen.
If a million, twenty million people go on strike or occupy public spaces their demands, if acceded to, will have to be made reality by technocrats and professional politiocians and that is a fact that all the revolutionary rhetoric and heady talk cannot ignore.

And that in essence is what I and I think Happyexpat -with whom I largely agree - have pointed out.

I am not a pessimist or gloom and doom merchant, merely a realist. I too have seen a huge deterioration in my retirement income because of the crisis. I accept that I'm not in the same position as the young unemployed but my grievances are real to me.
I have been to DRy local events. But sitting on my arse in our local square and calling for change isn't going to make it happen.

We should all be watching events in Greece. Interestingly, all major Greek parties have publicly proclaimed their intent to stay in the eurozone.
My prediction is that Papandreou will cobble together a national government. The ECB/Germany will patch up a rescue package - they can't afford not to as they are doubly exposed...not only have they lent Greece huge sums, they have spent huge sums buying Greek bonds. 
And let us not forget that ECB funds come from the central banks of EU states.
Martial law will - yet again - be proclaimed in Greece.

Now...this is not something I relish. Pointing out a bad thing isn't the same as enthusing it.

But what happens in Greece will be a template for the rest of the troubled economies of the EU.


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## Happyexpat

As usual mrypg9 we agree but in this case totally. The Rhineland model is certainly one I could support. The IMF needs restructuring, the banking system needs controlling and restructuring.
Greece, as you say, is the critical issue of the moment as it could cause serious damage worldwide. I have no doubt there will be another bail out, there will also be more riots. My worry is that the riots will be worse, the repercussions worse and the long term effect uncertain especially if the riots or demonstration are protracted.
One other point that I think needs making and I would point out before I start not specifically about any group, person or even country is; activists, particularly when demonstrating say that they are doing it for and on behalf of the people. The truth is that they are a small minority of any population, haven't received a mandate from the majority and therefore can only speak for themselves and their view which is often not cohesive. If they want to speak for the majority, and selfishly in particular me, they need a mandate to do so which means, in any democracy, getting elected to do so. Full circle!


----------



## gus-lopez

The German model would work if you could implement it. They don'tpay themselves inflated salaries, nor do they have their hands in the till. The majority work for the common good , so enriching themselves. 
That rules out it working in the majority of countries , UK included ! You'd have to cull from the top down in most countries , business & politics, before you could even begin to start again. 
As far as I'm concerned in most countries the time for change from within has long gone. The Uk passed the point years ago .There's some where it's still possible, including Spain. 
Worth bearing in mind that if it wasn't for the nanny state in the UK supporting everything there would have been unrest there long ago.


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## Alcalaina

Just a quick example of how your electoral democracy has failed:

In our town on 22 May, nearly twice as many people voted socialist (PSOE or IU) as voted for the PP. But the IU betrayed its voters and formed a pact with the PP, in order to "punish" the PSOE. We now have a PP mayor, representing just one-third of the electorate.

_Democracia real_? I don't think so. So I am an _indignada_ and I don't fall into any of your stereotypical DRy membership categories, sorry!


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## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Just a quick example of how your electoral democracy has failed:
> 
> In our town on 22 May, nearly twice as many people voted socialist (PSOE or IU) as voted for the PP. But the IU betrayed its voters and formed a pact with the PP, in order to "punish" the PSOE. We now have a PP mayor, representing just one-third of the electorate.
> 
> _Democracia real_? I don't think so. So I am an _indignada_ and I don't fall into any of your stereotypical DRy membership categories, sorry!


You're not a socialist or left winger?


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> Just a quick example of how your electoral democracy has failed:
> 
> In our town on 22 May, nearly twice as many people voted socialist (PSOE or IU) as voted for the PP. But the IU betrayed its voters and formed a pact with the PP, in order to "punish" the PSOE. We now have a PP mayor, representing just one-third of the electorate.
> 
> _Democracia real_? I don't think so. So I am an _indignada_ and I don't fall into any of your stereotypical DRy membership categories, sorry!


Exactly what happened in Mazarron except they all joined to force out the PP.
New Mayor for Mazarrón | News | Simply Networking


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## Happyexpat

It seems a shame that there isn't a box on voting slips which says 'none of the above'. There is also something terribly wrong when we ALL seem to think the same thing about people in politics. It leads to the conclusion that maybe it isn't the actual system that is at fault but the people that run it, or is that too obvious.....
As for pacts in Spain isn't that what happened in the UK with the Conservatives and Liberals. I suspect we are going to see a lot more of this happening around Europe as those in power struggle to keep hold of it. Ambition and greed make strange bedfellows!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Just a quick example of how your electoral democracy has failed:
> 
> In our town on 22 May, nearly twice as many people voted socialist (PSOE or IU) as voted for the PP. But the IU betrayed its voters and formed a pact with the PP, in order to "punish" the PSOE. We now have a PP mayor, representing just one-third of the electorate.
> 
> _Democracia real_? I don't think so. So I am an _indignada_ and I don't fall into any of your stereotypical DRy membership categories, sorry!



First Past the Post System: unfair.....MP elected on less than majority if more than two Parties in the race.
PR: leads to Coalitions where stitch-ups as you describe are commonplace.

So.....there is no perfected system. Each has its pitfalls. We cannot all gather in the agora like the Athenians. There are too many of us and technology and globalisation are too powerful.

Could we start talking about HOW these changes are to be made? One of the major errors of the democratic left in the past has been the belief that willing something will make it happen. Change has to be managed.
I notice a lack of interest in the mechanics which I agree are much less inspirational than the warm glow of revolutionary fervour but are the means by which changes are brought about...hopefully as painlessly to ordinary people as possible.

And no comment on the PP victory? 
Victims of false consciousness....????
Why do people vote right when the economy hits the skids?


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Exactly what happened in Mazarron except they all joined to force out the PP.
> New Mayor for Mazarrón | News | Simply Networking




Ahh...so that's alright then.....


----------



## Happyexpat

*The crunch*

This, of course, is the crunch question I have been wittering on about. It is easy to complain, moan and yes demonstrate about things which are not right but much much harder to come up with ideas and suggestions to make it better which is really what we need.
So here goes to start things off.
Firstly I don't think we should look at problems, certainly in Europe, on a single country basis. We need to discuss on a wider basis taking into account problems, discussions and solutions in other countries. I suggest that there is a valid argument for taking this thread and opening it up to cross linking with all the other countries, certainly in Europe.
Secondly the current diversive political system where every few years we change what was decided by the previous administration just on principle is counter productive. The system which says the party in opposition must oppose the party in power is also counter productive.
This leads me to suggest that party politics is a significant part of the problem. Would it be better to elect local individuals who you know and can trust, tell them to elect a leader and then work for the common good at National level without party whips and politics. Probably this is a pie in the sky idea but maybe it could be worked with to come up with something tangible.
Finally, and boy am I going to get shouted at, I think that coalition government has potential, it means they have to work together and the extreme ideas tend to be removed for more middle of road agreed policies. I agree PR just ends up with a mess but individuals elected on a first past the post basis would alleviate this issue.
Whatever we do we must, I suggest, ensure that it is democratic rather than any other alternatives.



mrypg9 said:


> First Past the Post System: unfair.....MP elected on less than majority if more than two Parties in the race.
> PR: leads to Coalitions where stitch-ups as you describe are commonplace.
> 
> So.....there is no perfected system. Each has its pitfalls. We cannot all gather in the agora like the Athenians. There are too many of us and technology and globalisation are too powerful.
> 
> Could we start talking about HOW these changes are to be made? One of the major errors of the democratic left in the past has been the belief that willing something will make it happen. Change has to be managed.
> I notice a lack of interest in the mechanics which I agree are much less inspirational than the warm glow of revolutionary fervour but are the means by which changes are brought about...hopefully as painlessly to ordinary people as possible.
> 
> And no comment on the PP victory?
> Victims of false consciousness....????
> Why do people vote right when the economy hits the skids?


----------



## gus-lopez

Happyexpat said:


> It seems a shame that there isn't a box on voting slips which says 'none of the above'. There is also something terribly wrong when we ALL seem to think the same thing about people in politics. It leads to the conclusion that maybe it isn't the actual system that is at fault but the people that run it, or is that too obvious.....
> As for pacts in Spain isn't that what happened in the UK with the Conservatives and Liberals. I suspect we are going to see a lot more of this happening around Europe as those in power struggle to keep hold of it. Ambition and greed make strange bedfellows!


As Billy Connolly quite rightly said " the desire to be a politician, should ban you for life for ever being one."


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## Happyexpat

I quite like Voltaire's comment
""An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination."


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> As Billy Connolly quite rightly said " the desire to be a politician, should ban you for life for ever being one."


So...if we don't like 'politicians'...who should govern us by consent? Not dictators or autocrats.
This knocking at politicians irks me. Politics as correctly defined refers to conciliating the varying interests of all the citizens of the _polis._
Power-seeking, squabbling etc. are not 'politics': they are merely power-seeking and squabbling.


----------



## mrypg9

Happyexpat said:


> This, of course, is the crunch question I have been wittering on about. It is easy to complain, moan and yes demonstrate about things which are not right but much much harder to come up with ideas and suggestions to make it better which is really what we need.
> So here goes to start things off.
> Firstly I don't think we should look at problems, certainly in Europe, on a single country basis. We need to discuss on a wider basis taking into account problems, discussions and solutions in other countries. I suggest that there is a valid argument for taking this thread and opening it up to cross linking with all the other countries, certainly in Europe.
> Secondly the current diversive political system where every few years we change what was decided by the previous administration just on principle is counter productive. The system which says the party in opposition must oppose the party in power is also counter productive.
> This leads me to suggest that party politics is a significant part of the problem. Would it be better to elect local individuals who you know and can trust, tell them to elect a leader and then work for the common good at National level without party whips and politics. Probably this is a pie in the sky idea but maybe it could be worked with to come up with something tangible.
> Finally, and boy am I going to get shouted at, I think that coalition government has potential, it means they have to work together and the extreme ideas tend to be removed for more middle of road agreed policies. I agree PR just ends up with a mess but individuals elected on a first past the post basis would alleviate this issue.
> Whatever we do we must, I suggest, ensure that it is democratic rather than any other alternatives.


Well, I made a few suggestions too.
I cannot agree with your views on the undesirability of party politics.  As I pointed out earlier, the raison d'etre of politics is conciliation, reconciling differing views and achieving some kind of workable cconsensus or if not that a practical course of action broadly acceptable to the majority. Wherever there is no party politics there is no democracy. Why is the first thing dictators do the banning of political parties other than their own?
As for electing 'independent' individuals....totally impractical. There are millions of voting age adults but they don't have a million different views on how to run the country. And there only a few realistic ways to successfully run a country. It's inevitable that shared interests and values will get together, coalesce, form a group aka Party.
It is also impossible to discuss the current problems on a Spain or UK only basis. 
Globalisation in its current state has interwoven separate national economies to the point where if one falls it will drag the others with it.
Greece is a case in point. Each EU state is exposed to Greek debt as each Central Bank contributes to the ECB. Other financial institutions are holding Greek debt, whether Treasury bonds or other private debt.
And we often forget that the market isn't just a group of greedy mega-rich speculators. Our pension funds and other savings have been used for speculative investments since deregulation has permitted the merging of retail and investment banking.
Greek wage cuts help pay the pensions of retired German workers.
It's not as simple as some might wish it were...


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> So...if we don't like 'politicians'...who should govern us by consent? Not dictators or autocrats.
> This knocking at politicians irks me. Politics as correctly defined refers to conciliating the varying interests of all the citizens of the _polis._
> Power-seeking, squabbling etc. are not 'politics': they are merely power-seeking and squabbling.


The ones best suited are the ones who are not remotely interested in being politicians & would have to be dragged in to do it. In any career whether as an employee or when employing my 1st question has always been " would you do this work for nothing ? " 
If you wouldn't then you're certainly not going to do better if you are being paid !

You cannot 'conciliate' all the time, It doesn't work , never has done & never will. Hard decisions have to be made rather than a cobbled up load of guff trying to please everyone that does nothing to help anyone.

It's no good politicians wringing there hands & saying "we're all in it together , all these cuts , job losses are for the greater good ". It's a load of nonsense, lead by example. 
If you want me to cut back , you do it first.If you want to cut my pension ( not that I've got one ! ) cut yours first; reduce fuel consumption, let's see you walking.

I'm certainly not going to be riding a bike while the people I employ are still running around in cars , along with the 'never worked in my life lot ' ; who are all supported by us saps that are diligently trying to get by in life, pay the bills , etc.
Culling is required , I said it 40 years ago & it's the same now. Just more to be culled.:tongue1:


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## Happyexpat

I am a Sci Fi addict and a quote from Isaac Asimov came back to me so I found it on the net and reproduce it here. It just about sums up where we are heading today let alone the future.
"_Democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it. Convenience and decency cannot survive it. As you put more and more people into the world, the value of life not only declines, it disappears. It doesn't matter if someone dies. The more people there are, the less one individual matters_."
I would like to think it an over dramatic view but looking around.............


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> !
> 
> You cannot 'conciliate' all the time, It doesn't work , never has done & never will. Hard decisions have to be made rather than a cobbled up load of guff trying to please everyone that does nothing to help anyone.
> 
> It's no good politicians wringing there hands & saying "we're all in it together , all these cuts , job losses are for the greater good ". It's a load of nonsense, lead by example.
> :




Just picked these bits out Gus....I did say that spmetimes -most of the time - decisions have to be made that are broadly acceptable to the majority.

And yes...when I hear this 'We're all in this together' guff it infuriates me.

David Cameron's recent Ryanair jaunt to Spain surely fooled no-one and can only have made people even angrier.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> But that's the whole point ... the system we have is clearly rotten to the core and must be replaced. There ARE alternatives, they have been set out and they are achievable, but people have to believe they are achievable and then be prepared to take action.
> 
> .


But the people as a whole have not yet shown that they want any of these alternatives...and its underlying values should be. We should really say 'options' since there are many different views as to what the fundamental organisation of society.
Are all the groups taking part in the current protest committed to the same model? I think not. Those of us posting here may not want the same outcome. I've stated what I want: a social market economy on the Rhineland model. I believe that to be achievable once the current free market orthodoxy of the global financial institutions is changed. What do the rest of us want?
How do you dissolve the false consciousness that has lead people not only in Spain but all over Europe to turn to the right? 
We all have wishes and dreams but we are foolish to ignore the very really obstacles to their realisation.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> It has all got very confusing. I actually think that DRy was a non violent activist group with good intentions
> 
> Falling apart it is but that was and is as predicted by many of us in the forum. Like I have said many times history can teach us a lot and we really should learn from it, not just ignore it.


Please see the new thread entitled 19 June. It should confirm that DRY is _*not *_a violent group (I think there was one incident in all the marches across Spain), and it is not "falling apart"


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Let's get back to things as they are not as we'd all like them to be.
> Some points to bear in mind:
> 
> 
> M15 and Dry are a disparate group of anarchists, socialists,Trotskyites, centrists, left-wingers with no common goal or idea of what their preferred social structure should be


This is such a bizzare comment mrypg9.
When I go to a meeting or on a march I see a group of people brought together through unemployment and dissatisfaction with the present system. I don't see anarchists, left wingers, trotskites etc. True, I haven't been to many events, but a couple of times I've been to Madrid where the movement is supposed to have originated and I don't see political groupings like the ones you mention. Have you had problems in your local DRY meetings with the political leanings of the participants.
On the march yesterday I saw people grouped together with a common dissatifaction - and indignation(!), and desire for change


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> This is such a bizzare comment mrypg9.
> When I go to a meeting or on a march I see a group of people brought together through unemployment and dissatisfaction with the present system. I don't see anarchists, left wingers, trotskites etc. True, I haven't been to many events, but a couple of times I've been to Madrid where the movement is supposed to have originated and I don't see political groupings like the ones you mention. Have you had problems in your local DRY meetings with the political leanings of the participants.
> On the march yesterday I saw people grouped together with a common dissatifaction - and indignation(!), and desire for change


Why is it a bizzare comment? It is true. If all these people have in common is dissatisfaction how can they hope to change the system? Of course they have political opinions.
Look, either this is a political movement wanting to bring about change or it isn't.
Of course they have political leanings and yes, our local group is composed of various political groups. It will cause a 'problem' only if they cannot find common political strategies and a common goal.
We keep hearing about the desire for change, a desire we posters share.
But desire and fulfilment are not one and the same.
Next year the PP will be in Government in the Regions and nationally.
That is one prediction you can make with certainty.
Then what?
How many months, years of street protest does it take to bring down an elected government?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Why is it a bizzare comment? It is true. If all these people have in common is dissatisfaction how can they hope to change the system? Of course they have political opinions.
> Look, either this is a political movement wanting to bring about change or it isn't.
> Of course they have political leanings and yes, our local group is composed of various political groups. It will cause a 'problem' only if they cannot find common political strategies and a common goal.
> We keep hearing about the desire for change, a desire we posters share.
> But desire and fulfilment are not one and the same.
> Next year the PP will be in Government in the Regions and nationally.
> That is one prediction you can make with certainty.
> Then what?
> How many months, years of street protest does it take to bring down an elected government?


It seems bizzare to me 'cos they are political labels that I think are not only not relevant, but they are labels that I myself would not use for the people I have seen involved.Like I say the people I have come in contact with are just "people" who do not share the views of the PSOE nor the PP, but it doesn't mean that they have reidentified themselves with a new group label.Maybe down your way it's different.
And yes, desire for change is not change. Next year the PP will be voted in yes, yes, YES. I know. I don't disagree. You are right. How many more ways can I say what I have already said. 
In the meetings, as I'm sure you've seen, if someone is repeating themselves or what has already been said people signal this by rotating their hands in front of themselves. This is so people are not continually interrupting one another and arguing, but get the message quickly when what they say is irrelevant. I propose we use this smilie
:blabla:
I think it could be used on 50% of this thread. Anyway, just so you know you don't have to repeat the above to me anymore.
:blabla:

Last part in answer to the question


> How many months, years of street protest does it take to bring down an elected government?


Irrelevant! This governments going anyway! Ask Rajoy, he'd the one who says he wants Zapatero to step down.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Irrelevant! This governments going anyway! Ask Rajoy, he'd the one who says he wants Zapatero to step down.



The PP won't move towards Keynsian full employment policies, that's for sure.
So what then?


----------



## mrypg9

Now this is bizarre!!
Four or five posters at the most are active on this thread and already there is disagreement amongst people who share the same aim???? Poor old Happyexpat gets mild abuse because he has a different view and his opinions are taken out of context and misinterpreted????
And you think that a hundred thousand or so protestors are united??? Of course they aren't. They will be arguing too which is healthy.

*I will repeat a thousand times as it seems the message is slipping past unnoticed*:

Street protest alone will not bring about change.

Only a couple of posters have seriously addressed that point. Most ignore uncomfortable facts such as the right-ward trend in the polls, what carefully-constructed policies are needed to bring about change, who will present them in the fora where they can be implemented, how to move from a free market to a regulated one..and so on.

Street protests are not the only or most effective way to bring about change. That is my view, one proven by history and it is a view worthy of more than the dismissal some are giving it. Working* within* the system to change it is the only way.

If you want this thread to focus on something truly new and not merely rehashing what has been previously said, how about commenting on those issues?

I fear that in a year's time nothing will have altered apart from a change of regime from an incompetent but well-meaning social democratic government to a hard-nosed free-market supporting right-wing one which will claim with some justification that it has a mandate to ignore street protest.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> But the people as a whole have not yet shown that they want any of these alternatives...and its underlying values should be. We should really say 'options' since there are many different views as to what the fundamental organisation of society.
> Are all the groups taking part in the current protest committed to the same model? I think not. Those of us posting here may not want the same outcome. I've stated what I want: a social market economy on the Rhineland model. I believe that to be achievable once the current free market orthodoxy of the global financial institutions is changed. What do the rest of us want?
> How do you dissolve the false consciousness that has lead people not only in Spain but all over Europe to turn to the right?
> We all have wishes and dreams but we are foolish to ignore the very really obstacles to their realisation.


Interestingly the PP vote only went up by 3% overall last month - hardly a massive swing to the right. The PSOE also lost votes to IU and separatist parties, and through abstentions.

Most people don't even realise that there are alternatives - or what their options are - because they are constantly told that the free market system we have now is the only one that works. They are strangely blind to the fact that it clearly doesn't, as we lurch from one economic crisis to the next while the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the planet is ravaged. 

Personally I am a reformist rather than a revolutionary but if the current democratic system is unable to carry out reforms because its hands are tied by the IMF etc, something like what we've been seeing in North Africa might be what is needed. (Yes, I can hear the horrified gasps already - we don't do that sort of thing here!!! Why not?) Remember, in all those countries the violence was was initiated by the forces of the state, not by the rebels. And they _have_ achieved change.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Interestingly the PP vote only went up by 3% overall last month - hardly a massive swing to the right. The PSOE also lost votes to IU and separatist parties, and through abstentions.
> 
> Most people don't even realise that there are alternatives - or what their options are - because they are constantly told that the free market system we have now is the only one that works. They are strangely blind to the fact that it clearly doesn't, as we lurch from one economic crisis to the next while the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the planet is ravaged.
> 
> Personally I am a reformist rather than a revolutionary but if the current democratic system is unable to carry out reforms because its hands are tied by the IMF etc, something like what we've been seeing in North Africa might be what is needed. (Yes, I can hear the horrified gasps already - we don't do that sort of thing here!!! Why not?) Remember, in all those countries the violence was was initiated by the forces of the state, not by the rebels. And they _have_ achieved change.


I agree with that except I don't think you can compare the truly oppressed and downtrodden of North Africa with the people of 'rich' Europe. Working people have a lot more to lose than their chains.
If protests turn to violence, whether out of frustration or through state use of agent provocateurs to provoke a backlash, the state will employ its full range of repressive measures and the outcome will be ugly.
I fear martial law will be imposed in Greece to stifle dissent and force through more savage cuts.
Now wouldn't it be wonderful if each demonstrator joined their local PSOE branch to get their views adopted as Party policy and to deselect dead-beat politicos? Imo this should go on in tandem with street protests to keep up pressure on politicians and keep the issues in the public consciousness.
As you say, education is crucial as people aren't aware of options. IMF honchos are presented as 'objective experts' and no-one contradicts this view of these neo-con ideologues.
I'm doing my little bit for education by sitting at my Union stall in Trafalgar Square next Saturday, handing out propaganda leaflets about an alternative to the Coalition cuts programme, the Robin Hood tax etc.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Now this is bizarre!!
> Four or five posters at the most are active on this thread and already there is disagreement amongst people who share the same aim???? Poor old Happyexpat gets mild abuse because he has a different view and his opinions are taken out of context and misinterpreted????
> And you think that a hundred thousand or so protestors are united??? Of course they aren't. They will be arguing too which is healthy.
> 
> *I will repeat a thousand times as it seems the message is slipping past unnoticed*:
> 
> Street protest alone will not bring about change.
> .


I believe that this isue and similar have been addressed many a time on this forum. To make this clear I include some full quotes.

POST 222
_*Quote:
Originally Posted by mrypg9 *_
The ones inside are the servants (public servants) of those outside and should never forget that.
But if the people are apathetic 'those inside' will take advantage of that.
Stirring people out of apathy and defeatism is a very hard task. I tried to do it locally for years with limited and intermittent success.
Which is why 'educate and agitate' is a good slogan.
You have to understand that you are in it for the long haul. Changing hearts and minds, as they say, doesn't happen over night.
I fear that many of the young protestors will not understand that and will get disillusioned very quickly if they don't get the changes they want more or less immediately.

My reply
Absolutely!_
The young protesters, and the old, because although the young started this movement, as is only right, the oldies are right in there too now!
But, as I continue to say,
I think the seed has been sown
I think people are debating and discussing more than they have for YEEARRRS
I think this will carry on in some form or other until the elections, which are just around the corner, and I think this is a very important point as I think more people will be stirred to vote which is always a positive.
Some of the starry eyed may still think that this is IT. This is the revolution, but my feeling is that people know it's as good as it lasts - and hopefully, but only hopefully, will it last.
_

POST 264_*
Originally Posted by mrypg9*_ 

next year's Regional elections will return a massive PP victory
the General election will result in power to the PP
The 15m and DRY will dissolve through lack of success, disillusion and apathy.


'To change the world you must first see it as it is'. Karl Marx.

My reply
Mary, I totally agree with you..._

...My point in opening the thread was to give information of what is happening in today's Spain as I think as foreigners living in Spain we are some times on the outside looking in. I find it amazing after all the pointers that have been given that people are still saying there are no proposals, that the movement isn't doing anything, and that it's not going anywhere. It may well fizzle out, but ATM it's still going strong.
What this movement is doing IMO is not going to have a negative outcome. Talking and making people aware, or more aware of their surroundings is not such a bad thing. And that is what happening at the very least._

POST 268Quote:
_*Originally Posted by mrypg9 *_ 
No problem. But talk is cheap and will per se change nothing. Organisation to get hands on the levers of power has to accompany talk if it is to have value other than that of merely passing the time.

My reply
Something that we all know and have all said._
But without talk there is nothing, I think you'd agree._

I think this illustrates my point. Personally I do not wish to talk about it anymore on this thread. It's boring, it goes round in circles, it's not going anywhere and the sad thing is that we agree, but repeating it ad nauseum isn't going to make it any truer, better - more interesting.
Move on


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with that except I don't think you can compare the truly oppressed and downtrodden of North Africa with the people of 'rich' Europe. Working people have a lot more to lose than their chains.


Tell that to the kids in Barbate. 40% unemployment - second highest in Spain. 60% amongst under 25s. Public sector workers haven´t been paid since March. The fishing industry has declined by 80% in 20 years and there is no other employment in the town except seasonal tourism. Many of its fabulous beaches are unusable because they are owned by the military.

300 barbateños are in jail for drug smuggling; this is the only growth industry in the town (just over the water from Morocco). But there is no money to repair the security lamps in the harbour or buy fuel for the patrol boats. 

Rich Europe indeed ... The oppression is not as overt as in N Africa of course, but their life chances aren't that different.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/business/global/31austerity.html?pagewanted=2


----------



## Happyexpat

Well this is a fascinating albeit predicatable situation. Yesterday I specifically asked for ideas to reform / change the present system rather than just protesting about how bad it is. Apart from a reasonable alternative idea from mrypg9 and a comment that we should follow the Arab Spring (which I have to say I find unbelieveable) there has been nothing constructive.
Without a firm idea of how you want things to change and what to the protests are simply for protests sake. Who do the people doing these protests think are going to make the changes, the present system who they are protesting against? To be honest I am not surprised by any of this but it does show how ineffective these street protests are. If you want things to change then do something practical about it with a firm and clear alternative. Just shouting on the streets is not going to do anything except lose people money, jobs and wreck the economy even more. 
If DRy, which I, and I have to say others, are viewing with greater sceptisism by the day, wants to be considered seriously then it should step up to plate, cut out the theatrics and present solid reformation proposals to the people for a mandate to implement them. If it doesn't want to do this it would be better disbanding!
Yes Spain is suffering so is most of Europe but the one that could bring everything down is Greece. If that goes then what we are going through at the moment will seem like a nice walk in the park!


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## Happyexpat

I agree with Pesky, this is going round in circles. It either needs widening up to encompas the European problem or probably closing.


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## Pesky Wesky

Happyexpat said:


> I agree with Pesky, this is going round in circles. It either needs widening up to encompas the European problem or probably closing.


I'd like to close it.

The aim of the thread, as said before, was to give information about the first protests against unemployment and the present political system in Spain. Those beginnings are over, the protests have been protested and it's on to the next move now which is the movement out of Sol into the different areas of the city of Madrid and beyond.
I'll post something about that on the 19th of June thread as I have a friend involved in an interesting project in "Dos de Mayo" in Madrid


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Tell that to the kids in Barbate. 40% unemployment - second highest in Spain. 60% amongst under 25s. Public sector workers haven´t been paid since March. The fishing industry has declined by 80% in 20 years and there is no other employment in the town except seasonal tourism. Many of its fabulous beaches are unusable because they are owned by the military.
> 
> 300 barbateños are in jail for drug smuggling; this is the only growth industry in the town (just over the water from Morocco). But there is no money to repair the security lamps in the harbour or buy fuel for the patrol boats.
> 
> Rich Europe indeed ... The oppression is not as overt as in N Africa of course, but their life chances aren't that different.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/business/global/31austerity.html?pagewanted=2


Yes, I read that too.
It's a situation not unique to Barbate.....it can be replicated in the banlieus of Paris, the run-down towns of Northern England, Northern Ireland, the south of Italy and so on and so on.
How many of the young of Barbate were out protesting, I wonder? You'd think Barbate would be a hotbed of political ferment. But it isn't.
Most of Europe, compared to Africa, is indeed rich. Life chances may be as limited for far too many but life expectancy is much longer.
So many people from Africa risk their lives to get to Spain. Don't let's make unhelpful comparisons.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'd like to close it.
> 
> The aim of the thread, as said before, was to give information about the first protests against unemployment and the present political system in Spain. Those beginnings are over, the protests have been protested and it's on to the next move now which is the movement out of Sol into the different areas of the city of Madrid and beyond.
> I'll post something about that on the 19th of June thread as I have a friend involved in an interesting project in "Dos de Mayo" in Madrid


Yes, close it. Those of us with practical suggestions have made them.
I've got an animal sanctuary project I've got to plan, cost and 'sell' to our new Mayor and Consejales. I should start working on that!!
In Spain I'll agitate for change within PSOE and in the UK via my Trades Union structures.
That's where I feel most comfortable.


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## xabiaxica

yes, it does seem to have run its course - and you have the new 19/6 thread now


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