# do I have to register as a resident



## doron (Oct 15, 2013)

Most of eu countries after 183 days in a year you become automatically a resident, is it the same in prtugal or I can stay non resident?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

If you stay longer than 3 months then *EU & Portuguese Law* as does every other EU country except UK says you must register your Residence within the 4 month as latest.

You *can't* be a Resident of two EU countries *at same time* but you can be classed as a *Tax Resident* of two or more

The 183 days you refer is a Tax residence issue with a further definition by Financas that if you own a property here at the 31st December *that they deem to be your Primary Residence* then you are classified as a Tax Resident whether you spend 183 days consecutive or not per year


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## doron (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you for all your grate answer's you halp me a lot , I tink that in a fiu week's I'll come to portugal .


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## doron (Oct 15, 2013)

Hi , we just decide to stay here and we need a fiscal nr to open a bank account, where do we have to go to do it , thanks


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

The Financas (TAX) office which is situated in your local Camara Town, you need your Passports as proof of Identity and you have to say if your a Non Resident in which case your address must be within the EU or EAA, if not then you must have an appointed Fiscal Representative or a Resident in which case your address must be Portuguese


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## doron (Oct 15, 2013)

Thank you


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

> If you stay longer than 3 months then EU & Portuguese Law as does every other EU country except UK says you must register your Residence within the 4 month as latest. You can't be a Resident of two EU countries at same time...


Don't know if that includes Ireland also or is it just the Schengen countries?

What about going out of the EU (Morocco I guess?) and coming back every three months? You can get away with that in Uruguay and Thailand at least - is it possible in Portugal?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

*No it's not*, the registering of your Residence is EU Law and applies to all EU countries, the only variance is how each country processes the registration, UK is the one oddity as it has no formal Residence register or procedure, but does have many areas where you must be a Resident to qualify for benifits etc etc


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

And what about staying for three months, leaving for a month, coming back again for three months - this is not possible either? Do they have all the entries/exits on a computer system then? I'm not asking if its legally ok, just if its possible or not. Its not officially legal here in Uruguay but loads of tourists do it, and the immigration guys know, they just don't care about it. And once they give you that stamp saying your allowed in the country then you're legal again.

However if in Portugal they check the system and it shows up that you've already been 3 months in that year and they deny entry automatically (or insist you get residency or whatever), and this is standard practice for immigration officers in Portugal, then that's a whole different kettle of fish.


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh and just to say that I have morally sound reasons for these questions, if perhaps not legally sound, which I don't want to discuss here (I'll explain all if we meet up again somtime), but just in case anyone thinks there's anything suspect going on, there isn't. Also the next 1.5 years of myself and the wife's lives depend on the outcome of these questions alas.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

No not ever border or entry point is covered, but on a local level you'd be surprised on what is known. 
A point to bear in mind is that should the question arise on your and your wife's residence, the onus is on you to prove you're not a Resident, you also need to be careful not to infringe the terms of the Schengen Visa that I believe your wife will need to visit EU as that would have a serious impact on her being granted Residency

A lot of the EU laws on Residence are to give all EU Citizens the right to live, work, study or retire in another EU country, they also extend this privilege to non EU citizens who are connected to a EU Citizen.

They are *also designed* so it makes it difficult to impossible to bypass the tax regimes of EU countries.
So yes you could do just under 3 months leave for an extended trip and return but most EU countries and NON EU countries have in place Tax Residence qualifications so as regards Portugal if you spend longer than 183 days cumalitive or not in a Tax year (Jan-DEC) or you own a property here at 30 Dec that is considered your habitual abode you are a TAX Resident.

If you want to PM please do so


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

Some more information related to this.

From reading here dated Feb 2013:
'Smart borders' proposal — EUbusiness

It seems like Portugal amongst others have a nationwide immigration tracking system implemented, but different countries do not share information yet:

"Moreover, there are currently no means to record a traveller's cross-border movements. The period of time a traveller has stayed in the Schengen area is calculated based solely on the stamps affixed in the travel document. There is no European data base in which such travellers are recorded."

and

"Thirteen Member States are currently implementing national Entry/Exit systems, which systematically collect all entry and exit records of third country nationals crossing their respective external borders. However these national systems are not linked to similar systems in other Member States."

So its seems entry/exit data is stored on a per country basis but not shared.

Applying for a residency in two different EU countries at the same time though could easily be shared so sounds risky/dangerous, but hard to find information whether these residencies are connected to a central EU database or not. Bare in mind Ireland is not in the Schengen area.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

You're basing your post on a "Proposal" not an implemented policy or Law. 
Whether countries share information or not is immaterial the important dates are the entry and exit dates, being caught breaching any conditions of a Schengen Visa is recorded and can and will jeopardize further Visa applications and can also affect application for Residency.

Entering or exiting a Non Schengen country like Ireland or UK will reguire a correct Visa 

Under current EU Law you *cannot* be a Resident of two or more EU countries, as I've said to you if caught or questions asked then you have to prove your status, whether we like it or not we all have significant footprints in a country whether it's utility bills, driving licences, tax returns, banks a/cs, rental the list goes on and on so if the authorities wish they can and do communicate


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

Yes the items proposed are not the interesting parts, its the inadequacies that they claim are in the current EU implementation that are of interest, and they are the parts I have quoted.

And my question now is not so much about Schengen visas anymore but more the following: 1) if one does register for a residency in Portugal (after being in the country a few months with a valid visa), does that residency application go to a central EU database or again is it purely recorded locally in Portugal, and 2) can/do the Portuguese officials check a central EU database to see that the applicant is already registered in another non-Schengen EU country (e.g. Ireland). I have a feeling that everything is registered locally in Portugal only and they cannot check, but none-the-less not worth the risk as who knows.

It seems that there are a load of EU laws & regulations etc. that local governments have to follow and implement, but they are still handled by each country individually in their own national systems for the moment, and not connected to each other, but perhaps someone knows whether this is really the case or not.

And I agree totally that breaching the conditions of a Schengen Visa is definitely not advisable.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Re a Schengen Visa there are little inadequacies, as the entry and exit dates are recorded if those don't match to the Visa or an extension then the exit country is going to report it. So it's in holders interest that there is no anomaly with these dates.

Some EU Laws are a framework so for Residency the pertinent issues are

The right of EU Citizens to move freely, work, study & retire and for non EU Citizen family members to join them within those countries, common to all is the requirement for that Registering their Residency in 1 country after 3 months and by the 4 month, *but each EU country still has some autonomy* on how the actual Registration is made and whether there are fines or sanctions for not Registering.

As I said the UK does not have a central registration database or a requirement for their own Nationals to be Registered so cannot make other EU Citizens register, in some EU counties registration is at the local police station, in Portugal it is with the SEF Ministry but the actual registration is handled by the local Camara or Citizen Shop, records are certainly held centrally by SEF and although I've not heard of anyone being fined Portugal does have a fine structure for not registering. Is there a central database for Registrations I don't believe so but there is a partial and will be a total database for Driving Licences by 2015

My feeling is that currently your are far more likely to fall foul of the Tax authorities of any EU or certain non EU countries who do communicate with each other and do share monetary information under EU rules, which then highlights the persons status.


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

Hmm I see. Ok thanks for the v. informative info.


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

I remember back in 1996-1999 I lived in Germany for 2.5 years and Holland for 2 years with my Irish passport and never had to register in either country - I was working for an Irish company off site in Germany/Holland (in sister companies if that is the term - I guess we were contracted out to them), and me and also other Irish people that worked there never had to register, nor did registering ever come up even in conversation at any time by anyone.

So is this a new law that's come in recently or what? I was (before reading this thread) under the impression I could just move to Portugal with my Irish passport and being an EU citizen just stay as long as I liked without any problems.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Rules and regs slightly different if you're working for a company and *totally different* for individuals since the *implementation *of the EU Social Charter in 2004 by all member states that gives EU Citizens the right to live, work, study or retire in any EU country but also imposes the necessity of Registering that Residence in most if stay is longer than 3 months


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## AidanMcK (Nov 21, 2011)

Ok - thanks (once again).


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe worthwhile bookmarking this Your Europe - Citizens - EUROPA all EU countries work within the framework, but individual countries still have automy in many areas, not the important basic rights but as examples how or where registration is done, or health care, social security, or like D/L's common D/L and catergories across EU but individual countries can stipulate renewal years or medical reguirements


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## IanW (Jun 30, 2012)

canoeman said:


> Rules and regs slightly different if you're working for a company and *totally different* for individuals since the *implementation *of the EU Social Charter in 2004 by all member states that gives EU Citizens the right to live, work, study or retire in any EU country but also imposes the necessity of Registering that Residence in most if stay is longer than 3 months


But then surely if you leave the country when does the 3 months start again?

Would it simply be an overnight?

Also if you register as a resident then leave for 6 months, then return, do you have to register again?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Second first every EU Country has some sort of "allowed" absences, generally you must spend 6 months of any year to retain whatever rights you have as a Resident, this is especially true for UK Residents
Portugal states
"Continuity of residence shall not be affected* by temporary absences not exceeding 6 consecutive months per year,* or by longer absences for compulsory military service or by one absence of 12 consecutive months, at most, for justifiable reasons such as pregnancy and childbirth , serious illness, study or vocational training, or a posting in another Member State or to a third country."
So no you don't

A simple overnight or weekend exit doesn't reset the clock for anything whether it be the requirement to register your residence if staying longer than 3 months or as a Non Resident trying to evade regulations on how long you can keep a non Portuguese car here, if you don't stay 3 months then you don't need to register but bear in mind that you have to be a Resident somewhere + the _generally you must spend 6 months of any year to retain whatever rights you have as a Resident,_ and + that the tax authorities of more than 1 country could also consider you a Tax Resident regardless of your Resident status


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## IanW (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks.

Curious as to what would happen if somebody did not register?

I know of one person who does not have a NIF despite living here for many years. Assume they are not registered either as a resident? Their other half is though, which is odd.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Under EU law you cannot be deported unless you were a "threat" but Portugal like a lot of EU countries have the *right* to fine you for *not* registering, currently fines for Not registering 400 to 1500€, Ongoing Not Registering 500 to 2500€, but it also creates others areas where the person can be liable for fines or more serious repercussions like not registering or exchanging their Driving Licence, no NIF well I find that extremely hard to believe as a NIF is reguired for so many things here but presumably just operates with partners, of course if one or the other died here then both could be a real issue for the survivor.


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

*Residency*

I'm just looking at this also for my own situation and those who don't decide to stay put for the entire time, who may not be working nor need to claim from another EU country's health service (e.g., has private health insurance or pays NI say in the UK etc.), it is a complicated issue and one that has been discussed many times, I am sure!


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## Stormawayisland (Jan 24, 2014)

Paying NI in the UK does not qualify you for the NHS, being resident in the UK does qualify you.

If you use a UK EHIC card to obtain treatment in PT when you are no longer a UK resident is fraud.


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

Get yourself some private health insurance instead possibly? Costs more yes but then there isn't the problems and it creates freedom too.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

maidentales said:


> Get yourself some private health insurance instead possibly? Costs more yes but then there isn't the problems and it creates freedom too.


On what! was it earned income of £4 or 500 per year? not much insurance to be bought there


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