# AENA announce 22 strike dates (now cancelled) - impact on tourism



## xabiaxica

Airport staff announce 22 days of summer strikes



> The unions have called for a strike of airport workers on 20, 21, 24, 25 and 30 April, 2, 14, 15, 19 and 20 May, 13, 23 and 30 June, 1, 2, 3 , 4, 15 and 31 July and 1, 15, 31 August, all key dates for summer vacation, and dates on which millions of people are expected to travel to Spain for their holidays.


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## 90199

Bruddy Brastards


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## maxd

Why not destroy the tourism industry. Should be illegal for airport staff to strike.


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## jimenato

The unions as usual doing their best to make a bad situation worse. Do they honestly think their action will have any positive result whatever?


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## jojo

They need to take their heads out if their backsides and take a look at the world economy and more importantly to them, the Spanish economy, their friends, family and neighbours who are struggling. Then maybe they'll realise that their actions are capable of destroying it all for everyone else!

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

jimenato said:


> The unions as usual doing their best to make a bad situation worse. Do they honestly think their action will have any positive result whatever?


And even if the strikes do not occur the damage is done  

Looking for positive results from my viewpoint I think it is good as it brings spain one big step nearer defaulting which I believe is necessary and it also boosts tourism in Portugal and other countries even the UK 

Bad news again that those who will suffer: bar, restaurant, hotel, attraction owners have little influence over this  

Wonder how many more unemployed this will create? 

Anyway I'm just dusting down my sleeping bag ready for my camping trip to Stanstead


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## jojo

Apparently, the ATC in Spain have lost all popularity with their fellow countrymen/women since it was revealed that, in a country with comparable low wages to the rest of Europe, ATCs are paid 5 times more than their European/worldwide counterparts! They are a total disgrace!

Jo xxx


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## Guest

jojo said:


> Apparently, the ATC in Spain have lost all popularity with their fellow countrymen/women since it was revealed that, in a country with comparable low wages to the rest of Europe, ATCs are paid 5 times more than their European/worldwide counterparts! They are a total disgrace!
> 
> Jo xxx


These aren't ATC.
These are airport employees.


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> The unions as usual doing their best to make a bad situation worse. Do they honestly think their action will have any positive result whatever?


Well, I suppose they must do, but I think they're going to have a hard time convincing just about anybody ...

And yes, don't get confuuused people. At the moment this has nothing to do with Air Traffic Controllers.


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## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I suppose they must do, but I think they're going to have a hard time convincing just about anybody ...
> 
> And yes, don't get confuuused people. At the moment this has nothing to do with Air Traffic Controllers.



Its to do with privatising the airports or summat isnt it?? (I havent read the link  )

But ultimately they're getting involved and they are the ones who will bring in the headlines and hold their own country to ransom

Jo xxx


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## donz

grrrr my mum was supposed to be arriving on the 25th


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Why not destroy the tourism industry. Should be illegal for airport staff to strike.


I am NOT in favour of this strike but I am certainly not in favour of making it illegal for anyone to strike. The right to withdraw one's labour is a fundamental human right. Workers are not slaves or serfs.
Think of the countries where strikes have been outlawed: dictatorships of the left and right. Stalin and Hitler, China and Pinochet's Chile.
A more thoughtful, intelligent approach is needed. Union members should be made fully aware of the damage they are causing. Penalties in the form of fines could be imposed.
This strike will damage many and benefit no-one.
The fact that I am booked to fly to Glasgow on the 21st has nothing to do with my views....honestly!


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## jimenato

Mrs. Jimenata's booked for 1st August. Hopefully they will all have been sacked and replaced by people who want to work by then.:boxing:


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> The unions as usual doing their best to make a bad situation worse. Do they honestly think their action will have any positive result whatever?


All my working life I have been an active trades unionist., even when I was a Director of OH's Companies. Most professional people -doctors, lawyers, educators - belong to strong and active trades unions aka 'professional associations... They are an important part of a free society.
But with rights come responsibilities. 
It is my belief that no trrades union has the right to use the strike weapon to subvert or influence the actions of a democratically elected government. 
The right to strike should be confined to actions by employers which *directly *affect wages and conditions of service and I am not convinced as yet that this would be the case here. I am opposed to privatisation of some public services but that is a political decision and once taken, it is up to unions to negotiate with the new employer.
It is then that strike action should be considered if a deal cannot be struck and then only as a last resort.
We should not be so illiberal as to condemn strikes because they may cause personal inconvenience.
Although I'm not happy that my April and June travel plans may be disrupted:boxing:


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## Alcalaina

People don´t go on strike and lose pay unless they have very good reason.

It´s the airport staff that are being held to ransom. They were promised certain guarantees that now have been withdrawn. When AENA is privatised they will be given new contracts with lower overtime rates and poorer conditions; labour costs have to be reduced in order to make it more attractive to buyers. The workers, many of them already on very low wages, can meekly accept this, or else they can protest. What other bargaining power do they have? They have already had endless talks, and that didn´t work.


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> People don´t go on strike and lose pay unless they have very good reason.
> 
> It´s the airport staff that are being held to ransom. They were promised certain guarantees that now have been withdrawn. When AENA is privatised they will be given new contracts with lower overtime rates and poorer conditions; labour costs have to be reduced in order to make it more attractive to buyers. The workers, many of them already on very low wages, can meekly accept this, or else they can protest. What other bargaining power do they have? They have already had endless talks, and that didn´t work.



So what you're saying is that a company that is state owned shouldnt be allowed to make cuts or become more efficient, so that they run like big lumbering dinosaurs. On the other hand, private companies are interested in new ideas and technology that may make things more productive for less cost?? Isnt that something to strive for if we're ever to continue to grow and flourish?

I dont know how much the cleaners and other staff earn at Spanish airports, but maybe if the ATC feel strongly enough they could donate some of their wages - hey, they could share it by reducing it to the amount that all other ATCs around the world get paid - problem solved!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> People don´t go on strike and lose pay unless they have very good reason.
> 
> It´s the airport staff that are being held to ransom. They were promised certain guarantees that now have been withdrawn. When AENA is privatised they will be given new contracts with lower overtime rates and poorer conditions; labour costs have to be reduced in order to make it more attractive to buyers. The workers, many of them already on very low wages, can meekly accept this, or else they can protest. What other bargaining power do they have? They have already had endless talks, and that didn´t work.


Well, some people go on strike because their union rules oblige them to follow majority decisions which they may personally disagree with. Do we know what percentage of members voted in favour of strike action? Was it a majority of a minority?
Because of a situation created by a wealthy and powerful few, many people are suffering, not just in Spain but everywhere. The question is, how do we deal with this and ensure that it doesn't happen again. Personally I doubt that major changes to the system will ever be introduced as even in this period of economic crisis, the majority are carrying on as usual. A real disaster/catastrophe will have to take place before any fundamental change is made....and the likely outcomes of any such event and consequent change would imo be drastic and very unpleasant.
It's tough to have to accept cuts in wages and worsened working conditions but sometimes there is no alternative. It's happening in the private sector too.
But the best weapon is public sympathy and inconveniencing people and harming economic recovery will not encourage this. Most of the jobs in question are not skilled and four million plus unemployed would be more than willing to take them.
Wishing we lived in a different, more equitable world is one thing. Actually bringing it about is something quite different.
We have to live in the real world not the ideal. 
That's pure Marxism


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## Guest

jojo said:


> I dont know how much the cleaners and other staff earn at Spanish airports, but maybe if the ATC feel strongly enough they could donate some of their wages - hey, they could share it by reducing it to the amount that all other ATCs around the world get paid - problem solved!


Jo, it's precisely those *airport employees* amongst others who will be striking.


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## jojo

I think what has always influenced my thoughts on all of this is my father in law(I dont know all of the exact facts as her had dimentia when he used to tell me about it!!). He worked for a big government organisation and he had over 5000 staff when "the computer" first reared its ugly head,. This computer was going to make life easier, more efficient, quicker...... oh and reduce the necessary staffing levels by half, thus saving money. However, the unions didnt like it and there was an almighty squabble and at one point they were paying staff money to stay at home. Its this sort of progress that cant be stopped and is always going to be in competition with staff. Private companies can take full advantage of new and improved ways of working and save money, government run organisations cant because they are bound by red tape and union, so ultimately hold progress and prosperity back!

Jo xxx


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## jojo

halydia said:


> Jo, it's precisely those *airport employees* amongst others who will be striking.



Then the ATC wont be happy cos they wont be able to earn their sack loads of cash - get them to take a pay cut and give it to the other staff!! They earn FIVE TIMES MORE than any other ATCs in Europe!! You can see that fact has enraged me lol!!!


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> . Private companies can take full advantage of new and improved ways of working and save money, government run organisations cant because they are bound by red tape and unions!
> 
> Jo xxx


Do you think that people who work for private companies aren't unionised???
Of course they are. To take just the financial sector: Unite is heavily represented amonst workers in banks, brokerages etc.. My dil negotiates with Unite over restructuring, pay and contractrual conditions etc. My union has many members working in private schools. USDAW the shopworkers union has members in all leading stores and supermarkets.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by 'red tape' but I can't think of any rules and regulations that don't equally apply to the private sector, which usually complains vociferously against intrusive bureaucracy...I know OH did!


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Then the ATC wont be happy cos they wont be able to earn their sack loads of cash - get them to take a pay cut and give it to the other staff!! They earn FIVE TIMES MORE than any other ATCs in Europe!! You can see that fact has enraged me lol!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx



I hear what you're saying Jo but consider: an ATC has a highly skilled and responsible job. Our lives as airline passengers are in their hands. The work is stressful and has a high burn-out rate.
You simply can't compare their work with that of someone who pushes a mop around the floor of the airport loo.
A free society will always have diffentials between different jobs. The Tesco cashier earns less than the shop manager. There are usually reasons for this.
Both Spain and the UK are societies where footballers such as Messi and Rooney are paid more than nurses or the Prime Minister. We seemingly accept this.
An ATC can wield a mop as can I but neithers/he nor I can perform the exacting duties of an ATC.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Do you think that people who work for private companies aren't unionised???
> Of course they are. To take just the financial sector: Unite is heavily represented amonst workers in banks, brokerages etc.. My dil negotiates with Unite over restructuring, pay and contractrual conditions etc. My union has many members working in private schools. USDAW the shopworkers union has members in all leading stores and supermarkets.
> I'm not quite sure what is meant by 'red tape' but I can't think of any rules and regulations that don't equally apply to the private sector, which usually complains vociferously against intrusive bureaucracy...I know OH did!


My point is that the private sector HAVE to be efficient and keep costs down, unlike the government who, in general seem to run at as loss and cant simply go bust. The threat isnt there, My father in law, said his department had to run at a loss for years due to the invention of the computer (held up by tax payers money) and always said that if he'd been in charge of a private sector company, they'd have simply had to have closed their doors. 

I must point out that I dont know enough about it all, apart from the repetitive ramblings of an old man with senile dementia, who had gone back to the days when he ran the Inland Revenue in our area!!!! But that was what he always said - several times an hour, bless him!!! (He did go back a bit further later on and I know pretty much all there is to know about the St Nazaire landings in WW2)

Jo xxxx


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## 90199

I have friends who are air traffic controllers, they have had to take a *40% wage cut*

Hepa


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## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> I have friends who are air traffic controllers, they have had to take a *40% wage cut*
> 
> Hepa


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## 90199

Regarding the right to strike, I worked in an occupation for 30 years, we had to forgo the right to withdraw labour and the right to engage in ploitics or be a member in any political party, such were some of the conditions of the employment contract. For me it worked, for many it did not and they departed for other climes,

Hepa


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## 90199

mrypg9 said:


>


Yes that is what I thought The said air traffic controllers are Spanish, one of them resigned and has returned to flying for Iberia,

Hepa


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## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> Yes that is what I thought The said air traffic controllers are Spanish, one of them resigned and has returned to flying for Iberia,
> 
> Hepa


People take on commitments, mortgages, loans......that kind of reduction is unfair. 
I can understand changing salary levels and conditions of service for new employees but not for the existing workforce.
As for being banned from participating in unions or politics.....my reaction is that this is against individual rights in a democracy. Being in the UK armed forces or police doesn't exclude you from either of those things (the Police Federation is a tough union but I don't think there is a union for the armed forces).
What kind of job would require you to be non-political and ununionised?

Incidentally, I find it wryly amusing that the strike action by Spanish unions will most likely prevent me from attending two UK Union Conferences


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## 90199

mrypg9 said:


> People take on commitments, mortgages, loans......that kind of reduction is unfair.
> I can understand changing salary levels and conditions of service for new employees but not for the existing workforce.
> As for being banned from participating in unions or politics.....my reaction is that this is against individual rights in a democracy. Being in the UK armed forces or police doesn't exclude you from either of those things (the Police Federation is a tough union but I don't think there is a union for the armed forces).
> What kind of job would require you to be non-political and ununionised?
> 
> Incidentally, I find it wryly amusing that the strike action by Spanish unions will most likely prevent me from attending two UK Union Conferences


Sometimes you accept such conditions, the 40% reduction in salary, was better than having no job at all.

Being none union and none political for me was quite acceptable. I had been a member of trade unions in previous occupations and thought I would find my new career unacceptable, however I found it to be quite easy. Being a non political person didn't seem to infringe on my rights, I could still vote, just not be a member of a political party nor express publicly a political view.

Quote *What kind of job would require you to be non-political and ununionised?*

Amongst other considerations* One that paid wel*l

Hepa


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## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> Sometimes you accept such conditions, the 40% reduction in salary, was better than having no job at all.
> 
> Being none union and none political for me was quite acceptable. I had been a member of trade unions in previous occupations and thought I would find my new career unacceptable, however I found it to be quite easy. Being a non political person didn't seem to infringe on my rights, I could still vote, just not be a member of a political party nor express publicly a political view.
> 
> Quote *What kind of job would require you to be non-political and ununionised?*
> 
> Amongst other considerations* One that paid wel*l
> 
> Hepa


I get your point!


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## Frankie 737

Relying on ATC as a part of my work, Spanish Atc provide a disgraceful sevice compared to their European counterparts. Uk ATC are 10 times better and get paid 1/5th of Spains salary. Not to mention the safety implications of issuing instructions to their fellow contrymen in Spanish, compromising other aircrafts situational awareness. Airport staff(All) in Spain , overpaid and underworked, my opinion.


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## jojo

Frankie 737 said:


> Relying on ATC as a part of my work, Spanish Atc provide a disgraceful sevice compared to their European counterparts. Uk ATC are 10 times better and get paid 1/5th of Spains salary. Not to mention the safety implications of issuing instructions to their fellow contrymen in Spanish, compromising other aircrafts situational awareness. Airport staff(All) in Spain , overpaid and underworked, my opinion.



Yes, I have family members and friends who are in the industry and not one of them is very complimentary of the ATC in Spain to say the least! I dont know about the rest of the airport staff altho I suspect if airports are owned by the government, that means they have that "jobs for life" contract, which would have to go if they were bought out??

Jo xxx


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## maxd

I am not surprised they want to restructure. If anyone knows about the severance pay and workers rights in this country, you can understand anyone wanting to cut down these liabilities and put everyone on new contracts.

The old contracts suck donkeys balls, 45 days redundancy for every year worked. Imagine sacking a cleaner who has been full time for 10 years? In any normal country you give them a few months notice and that is it. In spain they get a few years salary.


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## jojo

maxd said:


> I am not surprised they want to restructure. If anyone knows about the severance pay and workers rights in this country, you can understand anyone wanting to cut down these liabilities and put everyone on new contracts.
> 
> The old contracts suck donkeys balls, 45 days redundancy for every year worked. Imagine sacking a cleaner who has been full time for 10 years? In any normal country you give them a few months notice and that is it. In spain they get a few years salary.



Not only that (and I have to say this is only what I've heard) but apparently with the old contracts you can get away with more or less anything - thieving (as long as its not a huge amount), violence (as long as you dont actually kill anyone), insubordination, skiving, rudeness to peers, bosses and customers...... Theres very little that you can do if you're on one of these old contracts that you can be sacked for

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

maxd said:


> I am not surprised they want to restructure. If anyone knows about the severance pay and workers rights in this country, you can understand anyone wanting to cut down these liabilities and put everyone on new contracts.
> 
> The old contracts suck donkeys balls, 45 days redundancy for every year worked. Imagine sacking a cleaner who has been full time for 10 years? In any normal country you give them a few months notice and that is it. In spain they get a few years salary.


But employers knew that and thus surely reserve the funds (by reducing the salary) required. If the cleaner is on 10000 Es a year that is only about 14000 Es and if that money was set aside then it would have been gathering interest.

Is the real problem not that Spain is bust due to malpractice?

My point is that while this might seem a bit generous to the employee changing it is not going to do much to solve AENA's or Spain's problems  

AENA will make more money by simply screwing its workers and if they object simply fire them and recruit more. Of course that leads to an inexperienced uninspired workforce which is I think one of the root courses of Spain's lack of competitiveness.

"such donkey's balls" love it


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## maxd

jojo said:


> Not only that (and I have to say this is only what I've heard) but apparently with the old contracts you can get away with more or less anything - thieving (as long as its not a huge amount), violence (as long as you dont actually kill anyone), insubordination, skiving, rudeness to peers, bosses and customers...... Theres very little that you can do if you're on one of these old contracts that you can be sacked for
> 
> Jo xxx


I know from first hand experience. We just made everyone redundant over the winter and re-employed, cost us about 100k.

They can do anything because the law protects them and when things do go wrong they have nothing to lose by using workers rights to milk you for as much as possible, fabricating some story and taking you to an employment court ( happened to us 2 or 3 times). 

Some of the long termers are just waiting for you to make them redundant so they can get a few years pay and then get the dole for 2 years. That is why they are the most unproductive workers in Europe. The system is just wrong.

It is like a gun to your head as an employer, as it is a gun to the head to everyone invlolved in tourism with this selfish strike over one of the main money periods of the year.

The government wonders why everyone is using part time and temporary contracts....well derr.


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## nigele2

maxd get your point about employee protection. Sadly the pendulum swings a full arc for those on contracts and it is the spanish employer (the majority, not all) who does the screwing.

But your comments just reinforce my belief Spain needs a revolution before it gets better


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## maxd

nigele2 said:


> But employers knew that and thus surely reserve the funds (by reducing the salary) required. If the cleaner is on 10000 Es a year that is only about 14000 Es and if that money was set aside then it would have been gathering interest.
> 
> Is the real problem not that Spain is bust due to malpractice?
> 
> My point is that while this might seem a bit generous to the employee changing it is not going to do much to solve AENA's or Spain's problems
> 
> AENA will make more money by simply screwing its workers and if they object simply fire them and recruit more. Of course that leads to an inexperienced uninspired workforce which is I think one of the root courses of Spain's lack of competitiveness.
> 
> "such donkey's balls" love it



If you have full time contracts you also have wage levels set by the unions and government. For example we could not employ a handyman on minimum wage as we wanted because he came under some job contract, so it was 1700 euro netto then with all the social is was nigh on 3000. 

There is no provision for paying less using full time. if you do try and reclassify the job as something else you are in breach of the law and it is the old employment court again and they will win all back pay etc etc.


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## nigele2

maxd said:


> ....... with all the social is was nigh on 3000.


Prepare for job applications from all the unemployed of my Spanish family. None have ever seen 3000


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## maxd

nigele2 said:


> Prepare for job applications from all the unemployed of my Spanish family. None have ever seen 3000


No one will ever see 3000 euros again, except the boss. Temp and part time now. To be honest now it is good there are so many unemployed people we put an add out and are inundated with replies, we are using that to our advantage.

That 100 grand we paid out will be recouped this year. 

I think it knocked about 12k off social and tax every month by the time we restructured salaries and doubled some jobs up.


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## nigele2

maxd said:


> No one will ever see 3000 euros again, except the boss. Temp and part time now. To be honest now it is good there are so many unemployed people we put an add out and are inundated with replies, we are using that to our advantage.
> 
> That 100 grand we paid out will be recouped this year.
> 
> I think it knocked about 12k off social and tax every month by the time we restructured salaries and doubled some jobs up.


So you pay less tax, the spanish government pays more dole, the workers feel less secure ..... keep your guns well oiled boys, soon will be the time :boxing:

But at least it sounds like you are optimistic about your business which is rare in Spain. Perhaps you should volunteer your time to the Spanish government and try to talk some sense into their tiny little brains


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## maxd

Spain's Credit Rating Cut One Level by Moody's on Bank Restructuring Costs - Bloomberg

another nail in the coffin today.


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## mrypg9

If you are basically an internet trader with few fixed assets as is maxd you rely on the slimmest of profit margins. He is in a cut-price industry with many competitors. It's important to keep overheads low and costs keen. I notice that your prices have been drastically cut. Why the Spanish or any other government or the workers of any country should subsidise this kind of business depends on your political and philosophical outlook, basically. Of course Spain benefits from the tourists maxd brings...but they are more likely to be the low spenders and any profit from his activities goes out of Spain.
I'm in favour of keeping taxes on enterprise as low as possible. We were in a different kind of business. We had expensive premises, plant and equipment and relied on skilled employees with paper qualifications and experience who had to be paid good salaries. We spent a lot on training and up-to-date equipment. Our charges to our customers reflected these overheads but we gave quality service and did well. Because we gave our workers good pay and conditions, offered them pension schemes etc. they gave back in return, on the whole.
We also gave a lot of spin-off work to smaller local companies.
We had a hefty tax burden which we moaned about but paid. We couldn't cut prices as maxd can because we had no leeway to do so. We competed on quality.
A large economy contains all types of business from multinationals to one-man enterprises, from internet traders to supermarket chains. I don't know how the business tax system is structured in Spain but it should not be one-size-fits-all for tax purposes.
Essentially, no country can thrive and fund a good social security system unless it encourages a healthy business sector. It is difficult to establish a taxation system that suits all kinds of enterprise yet enables sufficient revenue to fund adequate social services. I don't think Spain has the balance right, unlike say Germany or Scandinavia.
If getting the balance right is difficult for governments, it's more so for employers. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys is all too true, in my experience. The tourist industry requires fewer skilled workers than say the engineering sector, obviously. 
Anything that brings more revenue to Spain is good, whether it's maxd's tourists or people like Steve and Andy who are working within the Spanish economy to create more business opportunities.
It does seem that the current balance is unfairly weighted against employers, especially the SME sector and businesses such as maxd's. He has to contend with many factors beyond his control...volcanic ash, low exchange rates, weak economies in other countries let alone strikes such as those planned.
I've always said Spain should try to emulate Germany with its high-end engineering and put some value-added into its tourist and other industries. 
But saying all this *should *happen sitting at a keyboard is easy....


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> If you are basically an internet trader with few fixed assets as is maxd you rely on the slimmest of profit margins. He is in a cut-price industry with many competitors. It's important to keep overheads low and costs keen. I notice that your prices have been drastically cut. Why the Spanish or any other government or the workers of any country should subsidise this kind of business depends on your political and philosophical outlook, basically. Of course Spain benefits from the tourists maxd brings...but they are more likely to be the low spenders and any profit from his activities goes out of Spain.




I am a apartment hotelier, not an internet trader


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> I am a apartment hotelier, not an internet trader


But you trade on the internet, wholly or mainly. That's how you advertise and take your bookings, via the net. This is today's way of doing business - if you can as it has many advantages. Few fixed assets, subbing to'partners', you can locate in one or more states with low corporation tax and if you go bankrupt your creditors will whistle.
If only we could have been like that...but we couldn't. You can't hide or easily moveextensive workshops and offices and heavy plant! Not that we wanted to. We used the infrastructure, we paid the taxes.
I am beginning to think that there should be differential tax regimes for different kinds of business. Not just different rates but different structures. 
Businesses like yours which is a smaller model of amazon and other online traders are easy to set up, require little start-up capital and are highly mobile and flexible.
Probably the way to go.
But whether there is a great benefit to the countries you operate in...I don't know.


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> But you trade on the internet, wholly or mainly. That's how you advertise and take your bookings, via the net. This is today's way of doing business - if you can as it has many advantages. Few fixed assets, subbing to'partners', you can locate in one or more states with low corporation tax and if you go bankrupt your creditors will whistle.
> If only we could have been like that...but we couldn't. You can't hide or easily moveextensive workshops and offices and heavy plant! Not that we wanted to. We used the infrastructure, we paid the taxes.
> I am beginning to think that there should be differential tax regimes for different kinds of business. Not just different rates but different structures.
> Businesses like yours which is a smaller model of amazon and other online traders are easy to set up, require little start-up capital and are highly mobile and flexible.
> Probably the way to go.
> But whether there is a great benefit to the countries you operate in...I don't know.


We have apartments, and tons of them so we do have a lot of assets, especially furniture. Also in Spain we have 100's of thousands in deposits and rents. As much as I would like to do a runner in the case of trouble I cannot


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> We have apartments, and tons of them so we do have a lot of assets, especially furniture. Also in Spain we have 100's of thousands in deposits and rents. As much as I would like to do a runner in the case of trouble I cannot


Yes but my point still stands...most of your assets are not fixed as you sub-let in several countries and if for any reason you ran off with those deposits....how would I or any of those who had parted with their money get hold of you?
Is Prague still a major stag/hen party venue, by the way?
That was one of the things that put me off Prague. Revolting drunken chavs all over the city centre. That and the fact that for most of the year the city was crowded with loads of sheep-like tourists following bossy women waving umbrellas. 
That...and the shabbiness of it all. 
I read that Prague buses are to be fitted with scent dispensing equipment to improve the smell. It would be better to educate people in the use of deodorant and the desirability of frequent washing of clothes and one's person....


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Yes but my point still stands...most of your assets are not fixed as you sub-let in several countries and if for any reason you ran off with those deposits....how would I or any of those who had parted with their money get hold of you?
> Is Prague still a major stag/hen party venue, by the way?
> That was one of the things that put me off Prague. Revolting drunken chavs all over the city centre. That and the fact that for most of the year the city was crowded with loads of sheep-like tourists following bossy women waving umbrellas.
> That...and the shabbiness of it all.
> I read that Prague buses are to be fitted with scent dispensing equipment to improve the smell. It would be better to educate people in the use of deodorant and the desirability of frequent washing of clothes and one's person....


Steady on tiger. I thought you were talking about Malaga 

I have to say less of it about now Mary but Prague as a centre will always be packed with tourists. Lets see what the summer brings.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Steady on tiger. I thought you were talking about Malaga
> 
> I have to say less of it about now Mary but Prague as a centre will always be packed with tourists. Lets see what the summer brings.


I'm ashamed to say I've never been to Malaga only the airport and IKEA to get some bookcases.....Our neck of the woods is very quiet. No beach bars, just sand and sea, no nightlife apart from one very discrete 'gentleman's club'. I hate crowded places and rarely venture out of our garden/pool when it gets really hot, apart from driving up the mountain track to our perrera.. I can't stand Marbella and have only driven through Mijas, Torremolinos, Benalmadena. I have been to the theatre twice in Fuengirola but not ventured beyond the main square and that was in the winter months.
Seriously, I love Prague but it has changed so much in all the many years I've been visiting. On the whole I enjoyed my three years stay there but it was a shock to find that full-time living is nothing like holidays, however long or frequent.
We had loads of visitors during those three years but most of them had a poor opinion of the city. Dirt, poor levels of personal and public hygiene, poor quality restaurants and shops in general were the most frequent observations.
I think part of the problem is the Czech attitude of 'It's good enough' and 'We've done it this way for years, why change?' is a big obstacle to improvement.
I always used to say that the biggest problem was not having a coast. Locked land, closed mind.
But I do miss certain places....best seen early in the morning while hangovers are being slept off...


----------



## Rofa

Well I did try to start another thread since this seemed to have wandered a bit off topic - sorry to the moderator.
What I posted was:
Any views, inside info, betting odds as to whether the Easter strikes will go ahead? I'm on the verge of changing some flight bookings. I gather there may be further talks today????


----------



## Stravinsky

Rofa said:


> Well I did try to start another thread since this seemed to have wandered a bit off topic - sorry to the moderator.
> What I posted was:
> Any views, inside info, betting odds as to whether the Easter strikes will go ahead? I'm on the verge of changing some flight bookings. I gather there may be further talks today????


Well Rofa I am hopeful .... I have to be in the Uk for a family do on 1 May. The strikes are either side so I am assuming that the gap in the middle will be strewn with delays and cancelled flights. I'm not happy.


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## Nigeljay

*Tourism on the up? Good time for an air controller strike*

The article linked below was in the Euro Weekly News 

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/c...ince-2005.html

It looks as though tourism is picking up and we visited Benidorm for the day a couple of weeks ago and it was very busy. Not necessarily an indication of a lot of money being spent of course.

It seems like shooting yourself in the foot to be contemplating strikes affecting air travel such as those recently announced but I guess that is not at the forefront in the minds of the relevent unions.


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## Nigeljay

sorry that last link seemed faulty on checking. Try this one

Euro Weekly News | Benidorm tourism has best winter since 2005 | Costa Blanca North | News | The Largest English Language Newspapers in Spain


----------



## jojo

Sorry, for some reason I couldnt get you link up?? ( probably me) but I get the gist!! 

But thats why they're doing it - they will tell you its not their fault, they have no choice! The government are forcing them to take this action cos their "jobs and money for life" contracts are being threatened !! The fact that their country is on its knees financially matter not obviously!

I've heard rumours that the government are possibly going to declare a state of emergency if they strike and that overrules strike action and they can be forced to work!???

Jo xxxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Sorry, for some reason I couldnt get you link up?? ( probably me) but I get the gist!!
> 
> But thats why they're doing it - they will tell you its not their fault, they have no choice! The government are forcing them to take this action cos their "jobs and money for life" contracts are being threatened !! The fact that their country is on its knees financially matter not obviously!
> 
> I've heard rumours that the government are possibly going to declare a state of emergency if they strike and that overrules strike action and they can be forced to work!???
> 
> Jo xxxx


Ahem, excuse me - there are two sides in this dispute. To avert the strikes, all AENA has to do is promise the workers they won´t lose their jobs or suffer pay cuts after privatisation. That wouldn´t hurt too much, would it? They can save money through natural wastage, not replacing people who leave or retire, if they really think the airports are overstaffed.

But it if the strikes do go ahead I´m sure the government will find ways to keep airports open. It will be interesting to see senior managers cleaning the airport toilets and their secretaries checking in the bags. Presumably they will bring in the army to work the fire engines and refuel the planes.


----------



## Stravinsky

Alcalaina said:


> Ahem, excuse me - there are two sides in this dispute. To avert the strikes, all AENA has to do is promise the workers they won´t lose their jobs or suffer pay cuts after privatisation. That wouldn´t hurt too much, would it? They can save money through natural wastage, not replacing people who leave or retire, if they really think the airports are overstaffed.
> 
> But it if the strikes do go ahead I´m sure the government will find ways to keep airports open. It will be interesting to see senior managers cleaning the airport toilets and their secretaries checking in the bags. Presumably they will bring in the army to work the fire engines and refuel the planes.


Bit like Civil Servants in the UK .... jobs for life, protected pensions ...... not any more!

I don't know about you, but I would be decidedly nervous about flying through Spain if the Government "manage" to keep the airports open. It only takes one slip and the consequences can be irretrievable. And thats coming from someone who very probably will have to fly whilst it's all going on


----------



## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> Ahem, excuse me - there are two sides in this dispute. To avert the strikes, all AENA has to do is promise the workers they won´t lose their jobs or suffer pay cuts after privatisation. That wouldn´t hurt too much, would it? They can save money through natural wastage, not replacing people who leave or retire, if they really think the airports are overstaffed.


Couldn't agree more 

Of course getting management doing manual tasks and getting the army in will only hold the fort. The real damage is already done. Who is going to book a hol in spain in the strike period if they need a plane?


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Ahem, excuse me - there are two sides in this dispute. To avert the strikes, all AENA has to do is promise the workers they won´t lose their jobs or suffer pay cuts after privatisation. That wouldn´t hurt too much, would it? They can save money through natural wastage, not replacing people who leave or retire, if they really think the airports are overstaffed.
> 
> But it if the strikes do go ahead I´m sure the government will find ways to keep airports open. It will be interesting to see senior managers cleaning the airport toilets and their secretaries checking in the bags. Presumably they will bring in the army to work the fire engines and refuel the planes.


I think you are right. People with -or without -jobs these days are very quick to condemn those who take action to protect their jobs.
I think this particular strike will probably not take place and in the current economic climate even the threat of a strike will cause damage.
But you can't expect people threatened with loss of their jobs to roll over and have their tummies tickled. 
In the UK our PM says 'We're all in this together'.
Oh yeah????  Some of us are more comfortably 'together'than others, methinks.
These airport workers aren't civil servants with 'jobs for life' - and nobody has a job for life these days apart from the ultra-wealthy who make money without knowing it.. They include loo cleaners, security personnel, floor sweepers...
Strike action should always be a very last resort and I don't think that situation has been reached...yet.
But as a principle, workers have tyhe right to strike if reason fails...as sadly it often does.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Ahem, excuse me - there are two sides in this dispute. To avert the strikes, all AENA has to do is promise the workers they won´t lose their jobs or suffer pay cuts after privatisation.


Why should they get a privilege that nobody else gets? Actually you are right they could promise that...:bolt:


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Why should they get a privilege that nobody else gets? Actually you are right they could promise that...:bolt:


But in the UK, TUPE, which if I remember rightly stands for Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment Regulations, passed by the Thatcher Government in 1981, was set up to do just that...to protect workers' rights, pensions, salary structures etc. when one company is taken over by another.
So it's not really a question of a 'privilege', it's more of a guaranteed right. Why should people experience cuts in wages and worsening conditions of employment simply because Mr. A decides to buy your place of work from Mr.B?
We're not talking about redunancies here, after all...or shouldn't be.
I'm always slightly puzzled when people discuss these issues as if workers were some alien kind of life form, not like the rest of us. As far as I'm aware most of us are or have been workers, even if we were business owners. Sensible business owners get more out of their employees by treating them with fairness than as disposable work tools to be discarded when of no further use. We as workers surely expect to be treated fairly and as dignified human beings.
The prospective buyers of these airports will be hoping to maximise their profits and one of the chief ways they will do this is by cutting the wage bill. I do not believe that the drive to maximise profit is necessarily a productive or fair way of running a business. There is a tendency to ignore obscene profit and focus on some poor sod's 'excessive' salary.
Some of these airport workers are amongst the lowest paid...you don't get paid a fortune with a gold-plated pension at the end of it if you empty airport lounge waste bins.
Privatisation has certainly been very positive for the old UK monopolies and what were the Gas Board and the Electricity Board have become hugely successful global enterprises.
But not all privatisations have been either successful or desirable. The putting out to tender of lower grade services in the education and health sectors has certainly been a disaster. I saw in the school I ran how loyal, conscientious cleaners, mainly middle-aged mums whose kids had been educated at our school, left and were replaced by teenagers who didn't give a toss how well they did their low-paid job. Result: filthy school, lower standard school meals.
The same with hospitals: no wonder it was getting to be dangerous to go into a hospital, what with MRSA.
The more I think about it, the more my sympathies lie with these workers, even though I may have to cancel a couple of journeys to the UK......for trades union conferences


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> But in the UK, TUPE, which if I remember rightly stands for Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment Regulations, passed by the Thatcher Government in 1981, was set up to do just that...to protect workers' rights, pensions, salary structures etc. when one company is taken over by another.
> So it's not really a question of a 'privilege', it's more of a guaranteed right. Why should people experience cuts in wages and worsening conditions of employment simply because Mr. A decides to buy your place of work from Mr.B?
> We're not talking about redunancies here, after all...or shouldn't be.
> I'm always slightly puzzled when people discuss these issues as if workers were some alien kind of life form, not like the rest of us. As far as I'm aware most of us are or have been workers, even if we were business owners. Sensible business owners get more out of their employees by treating them with fairness than as disposable work tools to be discarded when of no further use. We as workers surely expect to be treated fairly and as dignified human beings.
> The prospective buyers of these airports will be hoping to maximise their profits and one of the chief ways they will do this is by cutting the wage bill. I do not believe that the drive to maximise profit is necessarily a productive or fair way of running a business. There is a tendency to ignore obscene profit and focus on some poor sod's 'excessive' salary.
> Some of these airport workers are amongst the lowest paid...you don't get paid a fortune with a gold-plated pension at the end of it if you empty airport lounge waste bins.
> Privatisation has certainly been very positive for the old UK monopolies and what were the Gas Board and the Electricity Board have become hugely successful global enterprises.
> But not all privatisations have been either successful or desirable. The putting out to tender of lower grade services in the education and health sectors has certainly been a disaster. I saw in the school I ran how loyal, conscientious cleaners, mainly middle-aged mums whose kids had been educated at our school, left and were replaced by teenagers who didn't give a toss how well they did their low-paid job. Result: filthy school, lower standard school meals.
> The same with hospitals: no wonder it was getting to be dangerous to go into a hospital, what with MRSA.
> The more I think about it, the more my sympathies lie with these workers, even though I may have to cancel a couple of journeys to the UK......for trades union conferences


Couldn't put it better myself.

I have seen comments that workers should be "grateful" to have a job at all, in the current climate, as if the employers were doing them a favour by employing them. What nonsense. The employers need the staff just as much as the staff need jobs; but when there is a surplus of labour, they take the opportunity to drive down wages and thus increase profits.

Workers sell their time and their skills in return for agreed rewards - pay, holidays and pensions. It is a contract between two parties. If one party breaks that agreement, the other has a right to break it too.

Mary, can't you fly from Gibraltar? I'm assuming Gib won't be affected. It will mean slumming it on Easyjet or Monarch though ...


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Couldn't put it better myself.
> 
> I have seen comments that workers should be "grateful" to have a job at all, in the current climate, as if the employers were doing them a favour by employing them. What nonsense. The employers need the staff just as much as the staff need jobs; but when there is a surplus of labour, they take the opportunity to drive down wages and thus increase profits.
> 
> Workers sell their time and their skills in return for agreed rewards - pay, holidays and pensions. It is a contract between two parties. If one party breaks that agreement, the other has a right to break it too.
> 
> Mary, can't you fly from Gibraltar? I'm assuming Gib won't be affected. It will mean slumming it on Easyjet or Monarch though ...


I've already had my tickets bought for me. I still get expenses paid although I don't do much anymore,just the occasional speech.... there's loyalty for you...otherwise I'd have tried Monarch. They go to Birmingham, I think and I could have got a train from there to Glasgow where our Conference is being held. The TUC one is in London, though.
Yes, people often forget that a few people aka as workers helped our captains of industry make their fortunes.
Although I'm no longer moved by the kind of sentiments I had until a few years back, the sheer _unfairness _of what is happening now gets to me. 
All this 'We're in this together'[ really means 'I'm all right Jack, you can make the sacrifices for your country'.
Pass the sick bag, Mabel.
Now who was it that used to say that


----------



## casa99

mrypg9 said:


> I've already had my tickets bought for me. I still get expenses paid although I don't do much anymore,just the occasional speech.... there's loyalty for you...otherwise I'd have tried Monarch. They go to Birmingham, I think and I could have got a train from there to Glasgow where our Conference is being held. The TUC one is in London, though.
> Yes, people often forget that a few people aka as workers helped our captains of industry make their fortunes.
> Although I'm no longer moved by the kind of sentiments I had until a few years back, the sheer _unfairness _of what is happening now gets to me.
> All this 'We're in this together'[ really means 'I'm all right Jack, you can make the sacrifices for your country'.
> Pass the sick bag, Mabel.
> Now who was it that used to say that


Good morning Mary, I think it was wilfred pickles on the billy cotton band show? it was a long time ago so I may be wrong. btw read with interest your comments on this very touchy subject as you know I was a shop steward in the t.g.w.u.:focus:


----------



## mrypg9

casa99 said:


> Good morning Mary, I think it was wilfred pickles on the billy cotton band show? it was a long time ago so I may be wrong. btw read with interest your comments on this very touchy subject as you know I was a shop steward in the t.g.w.u.:focus:


Wilfred Pickles catch phrase was 'Give 'em the money, Mabel'. I think Mabel used to play the piano. The show was called 'Have a Go'.
Now I am betraying my extreme antiquity....
Yes, it's a difficult topic. Striking should only be a very last resort when reason fails...as it sometimes does.
My Union takes selective strike action in inmdividual schools when, for example, a stupid decision by an Appeals Panel puts an excluded disruptive pupil, who has used violence against fellow pupils and staff, back in the classroom. We issue a 'Refusal to Teach' order and we nearly always win....because we have 100% backing from our members.
And that is CRUCIAL. We are currrently refusing to ballot on the Coalition plans for education reform, cuts in spending and pension reform as we feel that we would not get a majority of a majority of voting members.
Yet.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Spain's air traffic controllers have called off a strike planned for later this month, saying they don't want to further dent the country's troubled tourism industry.
Around 300,000 British tourists stood to have their holidays ruined following the breakdown of negotiations over pay and working conditions on Friday.
But after an outcry from Spain's tourist industry and a damning response from the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the UNSCA union has vowed to postpone the action.
Spain's tourism industry was hit particularly hard by the recession and, although many Britons will holiday there this summer, its overall visitor numbers have dropped dramatically the third year in a row.
UNSCA spokesman Cesar Cabo said: 'The union understands the concerns of the tourism sector and passengers.'
Uncertainty over the possibility of strikes had already hurt last-minute bookings, which are lower than predicted. But tourism and airline officials feared visitor numbers could fall even further after talks with Spain's airport authority AENA broke down last week.


----------



## mrypg9

MaidenScotland said:


> Spain's air traffic controllers have called off a strike planned for later this month, saying they don't want to further dent the country's troubled tourism industry.
> Around 300,000 British tourists stood to have their holidays ruined following the breakdown of negotiations over pay and working conditions on Friday.
> But after an outcry from Spain's tourist industry and a damning response from the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the UNSCA union has vowed to postpone the action.
> Spain's tourism industry was hit particularly hard by the recession and, although many Britons will holiday there this summer, its overall visitor numbers have dropped dramatically the third year in a row.
> UNSCA spokesman Cesar Cabo said: 'The union understands the concerns of the tourism sector and passengers.'
> Uncertainty over the possibility of strikes had already hurt last-minute bookings, which are lower than predicted. But tourism and airline officials feared visitor numbers could fall even further after talks with Spain's airport authority AENA broke down last week.


So...the strike is off??


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## donz

I heard on the radio a couple of hours ago that they thought it would be cancelled due to big talks but they had 1 more hurdle to get over and they hoped to have further news later....


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## jimenato

MaidenScotland said:


> Spain's air traffic controllers have called off a strike planned for later this month, saying they don't want to further dent the country's troubled tourism industry.
> Around 300,000 British tourists stood to have their holidays ruined following the breakdown of negotiations over pay and working conditions on Friday.
> But after an outcry from Spain's tourist industry and a damning response from the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the UNSCA union has vowed to postpone the action.
> Spain's tourism industry was hit particularly hard by the recession and, although many Britons will holiday there this summer, its overall visitor numbers have dropped dramatically the third year in a row.
> UNSCA spokesman Cesar Cabo said: 'The union understands the concerns of the tourism sector and passengers.'
> Uncertainty over the possibility of strikes had already hurt last-minute bookings, which are lower than predicted. But tourism and airline officials feared visitor numbers could fall even further after talks with Spain's airport authority AENA broke down last week.


You write just like a newspaper journalist...


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## Alcalaina

They have provisionally reached an agreement, with AENA promising to honour current working contracts and not force redundancies. The unions (UGT, CCOO) are putting the proposal to their members, but fingers crossed all will be OK.

Sindicatos y AENA llegan a un principio de acuerdo para evitar la huelga · ELPAÍS.com


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## Alcalaina

Here it is in English:
Spain airport unions close to calling off strike | Reuters


----------



## leedsutdgem

Alcalaina said:


> Here it is in English:
> Spain airport unions close to calling off strike | Reuters


I wonder if sky news will report that it is off!! A week ago it was their top story which im sure put a lot of people off coming here.


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## fourgotospain

What a shocker! I said to my husband when the stirke was announced that it would be done and dusted before any dates loomed. When did strike action become such an empty threat? They ALL (union and employer) sound like a bunch of tantruming toddlers. Any childcare expert will tell you - don't threaten ultimatums that you are not willing to follow through on!


----------



## mrypg9

fourgotospain said:


> What a shocker! I said to my husband when the stirke was announced that it would be done and dusted before any dates loomed. When did strike action become such an empty threat? They ALL (union and employer) sound like a bunch of tantruming toddlers. Any childcare expert will tell you - don't threaten ultimatums that you are not willing to follow through on!


Well yes...except that toddlers don't have to deal with the possibility of reduced wages and longer working hours. Their working parents do that for them.
Sometimes the threat of strike action has to be made to ensure that employers understand the seriousness of the situation. I believe that the actual threat was to ballot members as to their wishes over strike action? Or has a ballot actually taken place?
No-one takes threats to their livelihoods casually especially these days and equally employers have to weigh up the consequences of industrial action.
From what I have gleaned so far, common sense seems to have prevailed on both sides.


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## jojo

fourgotospain said:


> What a shocker! I said to my husband when the stirke was announced that it would be done and dusted before any dates loomed. When did strike action become such an empty threat? They ALL (union and employer) sound like a bunch of tantruming toddlers. Any childcare expert will tell you - don't threaten ultimatums that you are not willing to follow through on!


Most mothers know, Never give in to tantrums or they keep having them when things dont go their way!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

fourgotospain said:


> What a shocker! I said to my husband when the stirke was announced that it would be done and dusted before any dates loomed. When did strike action become such an empty threat? They ALL (union and employer) sound like a bunch of tantruming toddlers. Any childcare expert will tell you - don't threaten ultimatums that you are not willing to follow through on!


What do you mean? 

The threat of strike action was the only way the unions could get an agreement that their members would not suffer redundancies or pay cuts after privatisation. 
If AENA hadn't backed down, the strikes would most likely have gone ahead. How is that an empty threat?

"Seeking a last-minute deal to avoid an Easter travel nightmare, the government's state-owned airport operator AENA and union representatives headed off a nationwide shutdown of air facilities Wednesday when they reached an agreement over jobs.

The accord was hammered out after Public Works Minister José Blanco agreed to keep intact the collective bargaining agreements until 2018.* This will guarantee employees' current work conditions until then, even if services at Spain's airports are contracted out as the government proposes in its drive to reduce state spending, an AENA source said.* Unions had threatened to shut down air facilities for 22 crucial high-travel days during Easter and throughout summer. Analysts warned that such a drastic move would further hurt Spain's lethargic economy.

Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero told lawmakers in Congress that the agreement "guarantees complete normal operations in airports" and the "mobility of citizens and visitors during significant dates."

"It is a good agreement that shows with dialogue you can reach things and I am very grateful to the unions who have shown good faith to sit down and discuss how to protect the rights of workers," Blanco said.

The government and the CCOO, UGT and USO unions spent nearly 17 hours at the negotiation table before an agreement was reached in the early hours of Wednesday morning."​AENA accord staves off air-travel nightmare · ELPAÍS.com in English


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> The threat of strike action was the only way the unions could get an agreement that their members would not suffer redundancies or pay cuts after privatisation.
> If AENA hadn't backed down, the strikes would most likely have gone ahead. How is that an empty threat?
> 
> "Seeking a last-minute deal to avoid an Easter travel nightmare, the government's state-owned airport operator AENA and union representatives headed off a nationwide shutdown of air facilities Wednesday when they reached an agreement over jobs.
> 
> The accord was hammered out after Public Works Minister José Blanco agreed to keep intact the collective bargaining agreements until 2018.* This will guarantee employees' current work conditions until then, even if services at Spain's airports are contracted out as the government proposes in its drive to reduce state spending, an AENA source said.* Unions had threatened to shut down air facilities for 22 crucial high-travel days during Easter and throughout summer. Analysts warned that such a drastic move would further hurt Spain's lethargic economy.
> 
> Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero told lawmakers in Congress that the agreement "guarantees complete normal operations in airports" and the "mobility of citizens and visitors during significant dates."
> 
> "It is a good agreement that shows with dialogue you can reach things and I am very grateful to the unions who have shown good faith to sit down and discuss how to protect the rights of workers," Blanco said.
> 
> The government and the CCOO, UGT and USO unions spent nearly 17 hours at the negotiation table before an agreement was reached in the early hours of Wednesday morning."​AENA accord staves off air-travel nightmare · ELPAÍS.com in English


Has anyone seen these contracts that they may have to lose if the airports are sold off??? I was talking to my kids about this strike the other night. Its a bit like if my husband lost his job and we couldnt afford to give them pocket anymore. Their pocket money would be reduced if not stopped because things had changed. 

Contracts, jobs and pay can only stay the same if the money coming in stays the same. A major worldwide recession tends to change things somewhat and everyone has to accept and change with it

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> Has anyone seen these contracts that they may have to lose if the airports are sold off??? I was talking to my kids about this strike the other night. Its a bit like if my husband lost his job and we couldnt afford to give them pocket anymore. Their pocket money would be reduced if not stopped because things had changed.
> 
> Contracts, jobs and pay can only stay the same if the money coming in stays the same. A major worldwide recession tends to change things somewhat and everyone has to accept and change with it
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't agree that the people at the very bottom end of the economic scale should have to pay for the errors made by bankers and politicians. We aren't talking about well-paid air traffic controllers here. These are people on low incomes struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, feed, clothe and educate their kids, put aside money for their old age. We all benefit from the work they do.

If they lose their jobs and have to claim welfare, does that make the country better off?

There is plenty of money in the world economy, despite the recession. It hasn't disappeared off the planet; it's just not there where it's needed. Instead it is sitting around in speculators' hedge funds and oil billionaires' bank accounts. They are the ones who should be helping get the world back on its feet, not the people who clean toilets in airports.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> I don't agree that the people at the very bottom end of the economic scale should have to pay for the errors made by bankers and politicians. We aren't talking about well-paid air traffic controllers here. These are people on low incomes struggling to pay the rent or the mortgage, feed, clothe and educate their kids, put aside money for their old age. We all benefit from the work they do.
> 
> If they lose their jobs and have to claim welfare, does that make the country better off?
> 
> There is plenty of money in the world economy, despite the recession. It hasn't disappeared off the planet; it's just not there where it's needed. Instead it is sitting around in speculators' hedge funds and oil billionaires' bank accounts. They are the ones who should be helping get the world back on its feet, not the people who clean toilets in airports.



Yes, thats just what my kids said - "huh its not our fault if dad were to lose his job, why should our pocket money stop, you'd still make us load the dishwasher" Its the same with everything, if theres no money and the company you work for goes bust or hits hard times then you cant get paid as much or lose your job! Thats the way it works from the bottom up! No one can magic money, work etc out of thin air just cos the people at the bottom dont like it! You cant just ask the bankers if they'd be good enough to support a possibly failing industry cos the workers dont like it. 

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> Yes, thats just what my kids said - "huh its not our fault if dad were to lose his job, why should our pocket money stop, you'd still make us load the dishwasher" Its the same with everything, if theres no money and the company you work for goes bust or hits hard times then you cant get paid as much or lose your job! Thats the way it works from the bottom up! No one can magic money, work etc out of thin air just cos the people at the bottom dont like it! You cant just ask the bankers if they'd be good enough to support a possibly failing industry cos the workers dont like it.
> 
> Jo xxx


But when there is a lot of money and the guys at the top take 90% and tell the workers that they must suffer as there is no money left because the top guys have large mansions, indulgent wives and girlfriends, private planes, ....

If you as a mum have a drug habit and thus there is no money to give the kids pocket money

Is it still OK jo????

And forget the world crisis. What is happening in Spain has little to do with any world crisis. It is to do with wealth distribution and criminal elements in the ruling classes IMHO


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## jimenato

nigele2 said:


> But when there is a lot of money and the guys at the top take 90% and tell the workers that they must suffer as there is no money left because the top guys have large mansions, indulgent wives and girlfriends, private planes, ....


OMG is that what it's all about???

I didn't know that - I'd better become a socialist immediately


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## nigele2

jimenato said:


> OMG is that what it's all about???
> 
> I didn't know that - I'd better become a socialist immediately


I hope you're paying enough to your barmen jimenato when they see you pull up in the porsche


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Has anyone seen these contracts that they may have to lose if the airports are sold off??? I was talking to my kids about this strike the other night. Its a bit like if my husband lost his job and we couldnt afford to give them pocket anymore. Their pocket money would be reduced if not stopped because things had changed.
> 
> Contracts, jobs and pay can only stay the same if the money coming in stays the same. A major worldwide recession tends to change things somewhat and everyone has to accept and change with it
> 
> Jo xxx



Funny how it's always the lowest paid that get disregarded as if it's alright for those at the bottom of the pile to get trodden on, though.
We're not talking about a private enterprise here, we're talking about a state-owned entity that the Government wants to sell off to replenish its empty coffers.
Why not tax the super-rich? Why not do something to deal with tax evasion which it has been claimed is a way of life here? Did the low-paid workers cause this crisis? 
The words of Adam Smith, often falsely claimed as the guru of the Thatcherite right, should be heeded:

_'The disposition to admire and almost worship the rich and powerful and neglect persons of poor and mean condition is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments'._

To put it in plain but vulgar English, we have a tendency to kiss the a***s of the rich and p*** on the poor.
And comparing the struggle by lowpaid workers to keep their jobs to a children's quarrel defies all reason.......We need a sense of proportion here..


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> OMG is that what it's all about???
> 
> I didn't know that - I'd better become a socialist immediately


Socialism is a secular religion. You need faith to be a true believer.


----------



## fourgotospain

If it isn't childish, it's certainly hot-headed. To jepordise the rep of a private company is one thing but to disadvantage a country is another. Yes, the workers should have protection, but for the union to publicly show such lack of vision for the bigger picture is stunning. If you kill off the tourist industry you no longer need multiple large airports, so whether you strike will be academic.


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Socialism is a secular religion. You need faith to be a true believer.


That's another reason why I'm not one then - I don't do faithray2:


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## mrypg9

fourgotospain said:


> If it isn't childish, it's certainly hot-headed. To jepordise the rep of a private company is one thing but to disadvantage a country is another. Yes, the workers should have protection, but for the union to publicly show such lack of vision for the bigger picture is stunning. If you kill off the tourist industry you no longer need multiple large airports, so whether you strike will be academic.


It wasn't childish, it wasn't hotheaded...it was successful. It seems that the workers have now got reassurances they would have had as a matter of course if this dispute had taken place in the UK. I'm not so sure that under EU Employment Law each member state shouldn't have some form of TUPE.
Hotheaded...now that implies rashness. It seems that the Union acted only after the Government had shown intransigence. Scarcely 'rash'.
Why, I wonder, is it only workers -aren't you a worker or were you not one, by the way? - who have to consider the 'bigger picture'? By striking they would be losing wages and the tourist industry would suffer -although it's already lost out big time to Turkey and other resorts for a variety of other reasons. All that is true.
But why put all the blame on the workers? Why not blame the Government for its part? Why castigate those who want to work, not live on welfare?
Maybe we should ask the bankers, the super-rich, all those who evade tax here and in the UK, the workers on the black...all of these to 'see the bigger picture'?
Not just a bunch of workers who are not well-paid and who have families to feed, clothe and shelter. 
I'm afraid Adam Smith was right. We pick on the poorest and most vulnerable in society. The rich and powerful can do as they please. Our personal convenience counts for more than other people's welfare. 
We should be deeply ashamed.
As for 'disadvantaging a country'.......as you are British, have you considered writing to the hundred or so employees of RBS who earn over a £ million courtesy of the UK taxpayer (me and perhaps you) and asking them to 'see the bigger picture'? After all, their ineptitude has certainly disadvantaged the UK and other countries too....


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> That's another reason why I'm not one then - I don't do faithray2:


Me neither. I used to...but then I saw a different kind of light.
Now I try to judge events objectively using knowledge and reason......that's a much harder thing to do and not as comfortable..


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## bob_bob

It matters not if the strikes go ahead or not, the threat is enough for many people to just strike Spain off their holiday list; the likes of Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and maybe Turkey will benefit. I feel sorry for the poor ******s stuck in airports


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> It matters not if the strikes go ahead or not, the threat is enough for many people to just strike Spain off their holiday list; the likes of Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and maybe Turkey will benefit. I feel sorry for the poor ******s stuck in airports


I feel more sorry for people with no work, no prospects of work and a family to feed. I've been stuck waiting in airports many times - for various reasons. 
I wouldn't compare that with being unemployed.
A ruined holiday or frustrating business trip sucks. 
Worse to have no job, a bankrupt business and no prospect of a holiday of any kind, let alone one that involves flying.


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## Nignoy

we have planned to visit spain in may and june, flights,carhire and accomodation booked and paid for,things are looking pretty bleak for us with these strikes , also Iberia has changed our flight times and dates 4 times in the last 3 months, what is the point as a disabled couple organising an itinery for a trip of nearly 4months and 12 countries and things like this happen !!


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## VFR

mrypg9 said:


> It wasn't childish, it wasn't hotheaded...it was successful. It seems that the workers have now got reassurances they would have had as a matter of course if this dispute had taken place in the UK. I'm not so sure that under EU Employment Law each member state shouldn't have some form of TUPE.
> Hotheaded...now that implies rashness. It seems that the Union acted only after the Government had shown intransigence. Scarcely 'rash'.
> Why, I wonder, is it only workers -aren't you a worker or were you not one, by the way? - who have to consider the 'bigger picture'? By striking they would be losing wages and the tourist industry would suffer -although it's already lost out big time to Turkey and other resorts for a variety of other reasons. All that is true.
> But why put all the blame on the workers? Why not blame the Government for its part? Why castigate those who want to work, not live on welfare?
> Maybe we should ask the bankers, the super-rich, all those who evade tax here and in the UK, the workers on the black...all of these to 'see the bigger picture'?
> Not just a bunch of workers who are not well-paid and who have families to feed, clothe and shelter.
> I'm afraid Adam Smith was right. We pick on the poorest and most vulnerable in society. The rich and powerful can do as they please. Our personal convenience counts for more than other people's welfare.
> We should be deeply ashamed.
> As for 'disadvantaging a country'.......as you are British, have you considered writing to the hundred or so employees of RBS who earn over a £ million courtesy of the UK taxpayer (me and perhaps you) and asking them to 'see the bigger picture'? After all, their ineptitude has certainly disadvantaged the UK and other countries too....


Well on balance your take on things is right & more to the point, morally right.
I was myself a senior shop steward for many years & argued long and hard for management (and often the members) to see that reducing the workforce on a particular job, but at the same time demanding the same productivity, was in fact a wage cut.
This has been going on in UK industry since the early eighty's & was closely tied with the advent of blame culture & not really an issue for management as they were the architects of the change so were well placed to cover their backsides.

I have to say though that from my experience the most class conscious/sod you I'm alright attitude came from the members themselves who at times drove me to despair.

Oh well


----------



## bob_bob

mrypg9 said:


> I feel more sorry for people with no work, no prospects of work and a family to feed. I've been stuck waiting in airports many times - for various reasons.
> I wouldn't compare that with being unemployed.
> A ruined holiday or frustrating business trip sucks.
> Worse to have no job, a bankrupt business and no prospect of a holiday of any kind, let alone one that involves flying.


Sorry I was just thinking about the impact on tourism and the inconvenience and to a point dispair of having your once a year (or every two years) holiday ruined and not the unemployed folk, seems we are at cross purposes.

Any strike like this will impact on this years tourist trade and I suspect 2012 as well, people have long memories and will of course lead to more un-employment, something a near bankrupt country like Spain can do without.


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## Johnfromoz

mrypg9 said:


> I am NOT in favour of this strike but I am certainly not in favour of making it illegal for anyone to strike. The right to withdraw one's labour is a fundamental human right. Workers are not slaves or serfs.
> Think of the countries where strikes have been outlawed: dictatorships of the left and right. Stalin and Hitler, China and Pinochet's Chile.


I agree but there's no need to look as far as China or others that you mentioned. Try the Baltic states, especially Estonia, which last year introduced the most restrictive Labour Laws in whole Europe. Any strikes are effectively prohibited. Any employee can be sacked via text message, even if they are on an operating table. Employer has no need to prove employee's guilt, employee has to prove his innocence. This is wrose than China! Pity that noone notices such things within the EU.


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## Alcalaina

Nignoy said:


> we have planned to visit spain in may and june, flights,carhire and accomodation booked and paid for,things are looking pretty bleak for us with these strikes , also Iberia has changed our flight times and dates 4 times in the last 3 months, what is the point as a disabled couple organising an itinery for a trip of nearly 4months and 12 countries and things like this happen !!


The strikes are OFF - but sorry to hear that Iberia are messing you about. It will all be worth it when you finally get here!


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## Alcalaina

bob_bob said:


> Sorry I was just thinking about the impact on tourism and the inconvenience and to a point dispair of having your once a year (or every two years) holiday ruined and not the unemployed folk, seems we are at cross purposes.
> 
> Any strike like this will impact on this years tourist trade and I suspect 2012 as well, people have long memories and will of course lead to more un-employment, something a near bankrupt country like Spain can do without.


Given that the proposed strike dates were published months in advance, why would anyone have their holiday ruined or be stranded at airports?  Inconvenient if you have to change dates, sure, but not catastrophic.

I remember when Spanish tourism was in its boom years the air traffic controllers were always walking out, it but didn´t put people off coming.


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## Nignoy

Alcalaina said:


> Given that the proposed strike dates were published months in advance, why would anyone have their holiday ruined or be stranded at airports?  Inconvenient if you have to change dates, sure, but not catastrophic.
> 
> I remember when Spanish tourism was in its boom years the air traffic controllers were always walking out, it but didn´t put people off coming.


But when one is reliant on assistance to travel, wheelchair, transport,morphine based medication transport permits which are for a specific flight , and to renew can take anything up to 14 days, for example if we had a 24 hour holdup at madrid and had to leave the airport to go to a hotel, we would then have to get an import permit and an export permit from spanish authorities for our onward flight, say we landed in madrid on a friday afternoon, there would be theoretically no offices open until monday, so this would have a knock on effect through the whole 16 week trip, so I think it would be catastrophic for us , it would mean the end of the holiday, 5 years hard saving, 18 months or more planning and over 35000$ in advance payments for flights, hotels , carhire and carers where needed,and being over the age of 65 and disabled there is no travel insurance to fall back on


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## fourgotospain

It does put people off coming when they are travelling on the low cost airlines who offer little help in the case of disruption. This was borne out last spring with the ash cloud saga.



> Any strike like this will impact on this years tourist trade and I suspect 2012 as well, people have long memories and will of course lead to more un-employment, something a near bankrupt country like Spain can do without.


Exactly. How much of this did the Union reps explain to the workers, or did they just press ahead with their own


> class conscious/sod you I'm alright attitude


? Did they also explain that it is the workers that will eventually lose out using such tactics, as more businesses refuse to use unions. 

I'm not putting the blame on the workers but the union who advised them, the union reps should be 'seeing the bigger picture' and taking on the management negotiating for things like performance related bonuses when the airports are busier. The customer is king - most of Spain needs to embrace that.


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## mrypg9

playamonte said:


> Well on balance your take on things is right & more to the point, morally right.
> I was myself a senior shop steward for many years & argued long and hard for management (and often the members) to see that reducing the workforce on a particular job, but at the same time demanding the same productivity, was in fact a wage cut.
> This has been going on in UK industry since the early eighty's & was closely tied with the advent of blame culture & not really an issue for management as they were the architects of the change so were well placed to cover their backsides.
> 
> I have to say though that from my experience the most class conscious/sod you I'm alright attitude came from the members themselves who at times drove me to despair.
> 
> Oh well


And I think you have struck just the right note...
Your last point is very true and I think is an offshoot of the 'see the bigger picture' mentality. People tend to see 'pictures' from their own viewpoint where jobs and livelihoods are concerned. My own experience of trades unions has sometimes led me to wish for a small nuclear device to annilihate my Association's HQ
I'm currently disagreeing over a lot of issues, particularly the 'Robin Hood' tax, or the Tobin tax.
But no way can you compare the temporary inconvenience of waiting in an airport or having to postpone a holiday to the threat of being unemployed. Some people complain when people take action to preserve their jobs then moan at those on welfare because they are jobless and stigmatise them as parasites.
Even the most saintly of us -which I'm most certainly not - have a tendency to view the world from our own comfortable vantage point. Of course, when the boot is on the other foot, views change.
I remember being told by one of our secretarial staff that Mrs. Thatcher was so right in telling people they should stand on their own two feet and not expect state help to bail them out. Some time later, she and her husband were faced with repossession as he had lost his job and could not pay the mortgage on their house. They asked me to get them a council house -they had no children.
I'm afraid I took great delight in throwing her words back at them.
I shouldn't have done but I couldn't resist it.....


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## fergie

What is the latest news on these strikes, we live in Hong Kong and are coming over to our house in Spain in May.
As the news is filled with earthquakes, possible wars we don't get anthing on possible airport worker strikes, I think one on 19th or 20th of may will effect our long journey there. Thank you


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## xabiaxica

fergie said:


> What is the latest news on these strikes, we live in Hong Kong and are coming over to our house in Spain in May.
> As the news is filled with earthquakes, possible wars we don't get anthing on possible airport worker strikes, I think one on 19th or 20th of may will effect our long journey there. Thank you


they have been called off:clap2:



eta - I've just changed the thread title to show this


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## jojo

fergie said:


> What is the latest news on these strikes, we live in Hong Kong and are coming over to our house in Spain in May.
> As the news is filled with earthquakes, possible wars we don't get anthing on possible airport worker strikes, I think one on 19th or 20th of may will effect our long journey there. Thank you



I think they've resolved it and the strikes have been cancelled!!!

Jo xxx


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## fergie

Thank you all, I am so glad,


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## Nignoy

xabiachica said:


> they have been called off:clap2:
> 
> 
> 
> eta - I've just changed the thread title to show this


great news


----------



## bob_bob

Alcalaina said:


> Given that the proposed strike dates were published months in advance, why would anyone have their holiday ruined or be stranded at airports?  Inconvenient if you have to change dates, sure, but not catastrophic.
> 
> I remember when Spanish tourism was in its boom years the air traffic controllers were always walking out, it but didn´t put people off coming.


For one thing people can't always just change dates so yes, potentially catastrophic. In my case when running staff on a ward we as a team had to plan months ahead our annual leave and believe me, come the summer months changing dates was not an option.

Strikes are off is good, how many will go elsewhere though because of the threat is unkown. The boom years are now gone, people want more than two weeks in the sun and a full English breakfast, other countries are now offering fantastic deals for next to no more than 14 days in Spain.


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## jojo

bob_bob said:


> Strikes are off is good, how many will go elsewhere though because of the threat is unkown. The boom years are now gone, people want more than two weeks in the sun and a full English breakfast, other countries are now offering fantastic deals for next to no more than 14 days in Spain.


Altho I agree with you, I'm not convinced that people will turn their backs on Spain altogether. It is still a good place for families, over other places due to the short flight time, which most other "sun, sea and sand" type holidays cant offer!

There are also companies now who are able to offer under-occupied hotels for seriously next to nothing (£25 BB for a week for two people in a choice of 4* hotels), just to get people over here

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> For one thing people can't always just change dates so yes, potentially catastrophic. In my case when running staff on a ward we as a team had to plan months ahead our annual leave and believe me, come the summer months changing dates was not an option.
> 
> Strikes are off is good, how many will go elsewhere though because of the threat is unkown. The boom years are now gone, people want more than two weeks in the sun and a full English breakfast, other countries are now offering fantastic deals for next to no more than 14 days in Spain.


Well, it depends who you have the most sympathy for, doesn't it....those whose holiday plans are inconvenienced or those who can't afford holidays at all.
Same with the 'bigger picture' scenario...what exactly does that mean, by the way? When you examine this cliche carefully it has no real substance. The country as a whole will benefit only if profits from tourism are not repatriated as most are and if taxes are paid which we all know is a possibility not a certainty.
Why an airport floor sweeper should make a heroic sacrifice for a foreign-owned airline or hotel chain or an English bar owner in Benidorm who sells cheap booze to not-very-well-off Brits and who may well be evading taxes is beyond me.
What is often meant by 'you must see the bigger picture' boils down to sucking up to those more wealthy and powerful....or selfishness disguised as altruism.
It would seem that the expected rise in tourism from the troubles in Egypt and Tunisia will not materialise. Turkey, Bulgaria and long-haul destinations have picked up the trade. 
Spain will now lure the 'budget' traveller with cut-price deals. A bad move. Spain needs quality tourism and visitors with real money to spend. As a destination it is rapidly becoming downmarket again.
As for trade union leaders being in any way inept.....the opposite is true, surely. They have achieved most of their aims by skilful negotation backed with the threat - the only threat - that working people of all jobs and professions possess...that of withdrawing their labour.


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## mrypg9

Johnfromoz said:


> I agree but there's no need to look as far as China or others that you mentioned. Try the Baltic states, especially Estonia, which last year introduced the most restrictive Labour Laws in whole Europe. Any strikes are effectively prohibited. Any employee can be sacked via text message, even if they are on an operating table. Employer has no need to prove employee's guilt, employee has to prove his innocence. This is wrose than China! Pity that noone notices such things within the EU.



No, I wasn't aware of this, although for the past few years I've been involved in the field of EU Employment Legislation. Shocking.
Do you have any links to websites where I can learn more...in English, please...


----------



## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> Well, it depends who you have the most sympathy for, doesn't it....those whose holiday plans are inconvenienced or those who can't afford holidays at all.
> ...
> As for trade union leaders being in any way inept.....the opposite is true, surely. They have achieved most of their aims by skilful negotation backed with the threat - the only threat - that working people of all jobs and professions possess...that of withdrawing their labour.


First, I spent two month's pay on my ticket home to plan my wedding. I have a *one week* window to get home and tie up the loose ends for the festivities this summer. You can imagine I was "thrilled" when someone decided to threaten a strike. I afford to take more time off of work in order to have the luxury to move my travel dates should the "_señoritos_" guiding the negotiations process decide to "_fastidiar_" some of the most important travel dates of the year. 


And please don't go believing that big unions here are all nice and shiny and clean. I'm more than willing to claim that at least one of the big two unions is "in bed" with the government. Why the dickens did they wait months before striking to protest the pay cut for funcionarios? Why did they wait until the ink was dry on the deal? Why did they wait so long before talking about the strike to protest the privatization of AENA? 

I'm at a point in my career where I'm looking at aligning myself with a union here. Between the bologna they pulled up here regarding teaching exams, and this silliness regarding AENA, it's been the last nail in the coffin for one of the "big two." And my OH's family is big time into this very union. However, I refuse. I personally believe, from what I've seen, that they don't necessarily have the worker in their heart. With power comes desire for more power. We're humans. Sure, maybe there's a few who believe in the "little guy," but we can't be so idealistic as to believe that big power has the little man's interests as their interests...


----------



## mrypg9

halydia said:


> First, I spent two month's pay on my ticket home to plan my wedding. I have a *one week* window to get home and tie up the loose ends for the festivities this summer. You can imagine I was "thrilled" when someone decided to threaten a strike. I afford to take more time off of work in order to have the luxury to move my travel dates should the "_señoritos_" guiding the negotiations process decide to "_fastidiar_" some of the most important travel dates of the year.
> 
> 
> And please don't go believing that big unions here are all nice and shiny and clean. I'm more than willing to claim that at least one of the big two unions is "in bed" with the government. Why the dickens did they wait months before striking to protest the pay cut for funcionarios? Why did they wait until the ink was dry on the deal? Why did they wait so long before talking about the strike to protest the privatization of AENA?
> 
> I'm at a point in my career where I'm looking at aligning myself with a union here. Between the bologna they pulled up here regarding teaching exams, and this silliness regarding AENA, it's been the last nail in the coffin for one of the "big two." And my OH's family is big time into this very union. However, I refuse. I personally believe, from what I've seen, that they don't necessarily have the worker in their heart. With power comes desire for more power. We're humans. Sure, maybe there's a few who believe in the "little guy," but we can't be so idealistic as to believe that big power has the little man's interests as their interests...


I'm not quite sure what point you're making, except that strikes cause you inconvenience as they have done me.
One point though...you ask why they spent so much time talking about striking...maybe because they saw strike action as a last resort, the final weapon?
I have had enough involvement with unions to appreciate that of course they are not always on the side of the angels. Who is? Your comment that unions 'don't have the interests of the worker at heart' is in my view quite wrong. It is a subjective view since no-one can truly 'know' another's motives.
I would say this: trades union leaders, like their opposites in the employers' federations with whom they negotiate, are human and therefore fallible. They very often get it wrong. If I had a £ for every time I have groaned at some act of folly by a union leader I'd be somewhere other than Spain... Look back at my previous post - I'm in disagreement with my Union's stance right now. But yes, they do have the interests of their members at heart. Just as the CEOs of large companies quite rightly have the interests of their shareholders at heart. For both parties, it's their job.
Without trades unions, however inept they may have been at times, workers - and that is, all of us on this forum, as we do not join those at the top simply by moving to Spain - would have very few rights.
Consider John's post about Estonia. Not much trades unionism there, methinks.


----------



## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not quite sure what point you're making, except that strikes cause you inconvenience as they have done me.
> One point though...you ask why they spent so much time talking about striking...maybe because they saw strike action as a last resort, the final weapon?


No, I'm not asking why they spent so much time talking about striking. I'm asking why the dickens they've taken so long to even begin to talk about striking instead of beginning this media blitz *before* the privatization deal was struck. Why they waited until well after the _funcionario_ pay cut was passed to begin mobilizing their supporters. 



> I have had enough involvement with unions to appreciate that of course they are not always on the side of the angels. Who is? Your comment that unions 'don't have the interests of the worker at heart' is in my view quite wrong. It is a subjective view since no-one can truly 'know' another's motives.


I'm not talking about unions in general, I'm talking about the two major unions in Spain. My opinion is firm on this issue, based upon recent mobilizations, or lack thereof, both at the regional level where I am and at the national level. 



> Without trades unions, however inept they may have been at times, workers - *and that is, all of us on this forum, as we do not join those at the top simply by moving to Spain *- would have very few rights.


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. 

I'm 26. I work in eduction. I've been, and still am, fairly pleased with union work in my field. However, we have to be very careful to separate opinions of unions from our home countries. From what you're saying, I think you're drawing on experience in your homeland to apply it to unions in Spain.


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Consider John's post about Estonia. Not much trades unionism there, methinks.


I note John has not come back and supplied source for his statements re Estonia.

However part of the reforms in Estonia were:

increasing the benefits for additional childcare leave from the flat rate of EEK 66 (€4.22 as at 29 January 2009) a day up to the same level as the national minimum wage;
administering the electronic registration of employment record books instead of the current paper version;
raising the flat rate of unemployment allowance up to 50% of the national minimum wage of the previous year instead of the current monthly level of about EEK 1,000 (€64), which amounts to around 23% of the minimum wage.

I also found reference to legislation regarding reducing notice periods of termination.

No where can I find legislation referencing termination by text. Trade Unions have stated in Estonia that they do not like all the changes but I guess that is there job. I expect the Estonia government wanted more as well.

--------------------

Just because someone posts on here and sounds like they know what they are talking about one should be careful using this as a basis for further drawing of conclusions.

Of course if John can produce a respectable source for his understanding then so be it. I'm not saying he is wrong.


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## nigele2

And also from Estonia this looks interesting:

To ease the financial burden of redundancies for the employer, the payment of redundancy benefits will be shared by the employer and the Estonian Unemployment Insurance Fund

Sharing the burden. I wonder if Zappie has thought of that?


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> No, I'm not asking why they spent so much time talking about striking. I'm asking why the dickens they've taken so long to even begin to talk about striking instead of beginning this media blitz *before* the privatization deal was struck. Why they waited until well after the _funcionario_ pay cut was passed to begin mobilizing their supporters.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about unions in general, I'm talking about the two major unions in Spain. My opinion is firm on this issue, based upon recent mobilizations, or lack thereof, both at the regional level where I am and at the national level.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you're trying to say here.
> 
> I'm 26. I work in eduction. I've been, and still am, fairly pleased with union work in my field. However, we have to be very careful to separate opinions of unions from our home countries. From what you're saying, I think you're drawing on experience in your homeland to apply it to unions in Spain.


I think your last point is most likely true. 
What I was trying to say in my other point is that in the British immigrant community there are a few people who imagine that by emigrating to Spain they have somehow upped their social standing and should not side with the 'workers' who they see as beneath them.. On another forum where this phenomenum was discussed at length someone coined the phrase 'ten -bob millionaires' which imo sums it up neatly. There is still an element in British culture which seeks to award itself a non-existence status where class is concerned. Do you know that wonderful Monty Python sketch mocking this? A recent Newsnight clip on the 'squeezed middle-classes' showed this beautifully where a range of people in quite lowly-paid manual occupations announced that they were 'middle class' as they had become home owners. From what I have experienced in the States and Canada you are not afflicted with this strange disease. You occasionally see examples of this British phenomenum in letters to the British press here or in posts on other forums. This one is immune, thankfully, which is why imo it is the best. We may disagree but we are all sane people!
When unemployment hits the precarious middle-classes the squeals are heard big-time at the Daily Mail.....Then the realisation dawns...we are workers too.....
Trades Unions in the UK at least are businesses which offer a wide range of services to their members. They charge hefty membership fees of several £ hundreds a year and their leaders quite rightly receive large salaries, although no way as large as those of their opposites in the companies their members work in.
The responsibilities of a trades union General Secretary...who is elected by members and can be sacked if his/her performance is judged unsatisfactory...are as great as those of a CEO. Trades Unions have a substantial portfolio of assets in property and investments on the markets and have a stake in the success of the economy.
Trades Union officials share the same perks as their opposite numbers: they travel first class, stay in top hotels, have large 'company ' cars...
Why not? They are equals in the negotiation process. Why should worker = lower status?
I would be interested to learn more about unionism in Spain in the twenty-first century. I know about its historical role.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> I think your last point is most likely true.
> What I was trying to say in my other point is that in the British immigrant community there are a few people who imagine that by emigrating to Spain they have somehow upped their social standing and should not side with the 'workers' who they see as beneath them..


I haven't a clue about the British immigrant community, as the expat/immigrant up north seems to be of a different breed than the expat/immigrant down south. We have to be. There's little to no support network of the type to be found in Alicante. (I cite Alicante because my in-laws have a home there, and I was shocked to find more English than Spanish spoken in the businesses in their development.) 




> When unemployment hits the precarious middle-classes the squeals are heard big-time at the Daily Mail.....Then the realisation dawns...we are workers too.....
> Trades Unions in the UK at least are businesses which offer a wide range of services to their members. They charge hefty membership fees of several £ hundreds a year and their leaders quite rightly receive large salaries, although no way as large as those of their opposites in the companies their members work in.
> The responsibilities of a trades union General Secretary...who is elected by members and can be sacked if his/her performance is judged unsatisfactory...are as great as those of a CEO. Trades Unions have a substantial portfolio of assets in property and investments on the markets and have a stake in the success of the economy.


I reiterate, we're talking about Spanish unions and shouldn't equate experiences in our home countries with the reality in Spain. If we did so, I'd hate all education unions, since my poor mother was forced to either join the union or pay the dues anyhow. She was forced into surrendering hundreds of dollars a year despite the fact she was not a member. I find the actions of some teachers unions in the US to be absolutely criminal. *HOWEVER,* this is not the case here and we cannot apply American, Canadian, or British union realities to the reality found in Spain. 



> I would be interested to learn more about unionism in Spain in the twenty-first century. I know about its historical role.


Mary, you're living here, right? Take advantage of the opportunity and learn! I've learned a lot in a few short years.


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> I think ......................................... Why should worker = lower status?
> I would be interested to learn more about unionism in Spain in the twenty-first century. I know about its historical role.


Great post Mary. Of course there are also upper class who think they are workers.

Not a realistic example but I remember a few years back that Eric Clapton said he still received a brown envelope with his cash pay each week. He said he couldn't spend it as he had to avoid being mobbed by his millions of adoring fans. But he needed that connection with his roots. Pity the 10 bob millionaires don't remember their roots 

No criticism of Eric intended of course. He is God after all and if the world had a few more ECs I believe it would be a better place. I remember what Bob Marley said of Eric. Must go play some music


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> Mary, you're living here, right? Take advantage of the opportunity and learn! I've learned a lot in a few short years.


Where to start??? I've only just starting working for our local PSOE Alcalde, my Spanish is a 'work in progress' and I don't think there is a wealth of literature in English about Spanish Trades Unions.
I must say I agree with you about U.S. teachers unions. Although some individual members I've met at international conferences were lovely people the U.S. unions as a body seem to be a reactionary force blocking progress in education and defending incompetent members.
Like you, I worked in education and ended up, after decades at the chalk face, in school management. Of all the UK teachers unions mine is the most 'militantly moderate' and I feel a great deal of loyalty to it as it has on a couple of occasions fought my corner and won when I have needed support.

I've just noticed in my diary a date under which I've written, rather mysteriously, 'sindicatos'. Maybe my education is about to begin....


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> Where to start??? I've only just starting working for our local PSOE Alcalde, my Spanish is a 'work in progress' and I don't think there is a wealth of literature in English about Spanish Trades Unions.
> I must say I agree with you about U.S. teachers unions. Although some individual members I've met at international conferences were lovely people the U.S. unions as a body seem to be a reactionary force blocking progress in education and defending incompetent members.
> Like you, I worked in education and ended up, after decades at the chalk face, in school management. Of all the UK teachers unions mine is the most 'militantly moderate' and I feel a great deal of loyalty to it as it has on a couple of occasions fought my corner and won when I have needed support.
> 
> I've just noticed in my diary a date under which I've written, rather mysteriously, 'sindicatos'. Maybe my education is about to begin....


Throw youself into Spanish life. Try like heck to learn your Spanish. Don't get frustrated, it WILL come. It takes hard work and a good dictionary. Sit down and read something about the history of unions in Spanish. Make spanishdict.com and/or wordreference.com your homepage. What once took hours to translated with the traditional dictionary now takes a lot less time. 

Best of luck!


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> Throw youself into Spanish life. Try like heck to learn your Spanish. Don't get frustrated, it WILL come. It takes hard work and a good dictionary. Sit down and read something about the history of unions in Spanish. Make spanishdict.com and/or wordreference.com your homepage. What once took hours to translated with the traditional dictionary now takes a lot less time.
> 
> Best of luck!


Err.....my Spanish is a lot more advanced than that!! As for 'throwing myself into Spanish life'.....I've done that since Day One. We do not live in a British community, our neighbours are Spanish, in my charity and political work I work with non-English-speaking Spanish people....
My other profession in the UK was as a translator/interpreter. and I taught Modern Foreign Languages..My main languages are German and French but I translated texts from Italian and Spanish into English.
I also speak bad but comprehensible Czech and Polish.
So I was being what my partner would call uncharacteristically modest about my Spanish....
What I lack is a relevant bibliography.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> Err.....my Spanish is a lot more advanced than that!! As for 'throwing myself into Spanish life'.....I've done that since Day One. We do not live in a British community, our neighbours are Spanish, in my charity and political work I work with non-English-speaking Spanish people....
> My other profession in the UK was as a translator/interpreter. and I taught Modern Foreign Languages..My main languages are German and French but I translated texts from Italian and Spanish into English.
> I also speak bad but comprehensible Czech and Polish.
> So I was being what my partner would call uncharacteristically modest about my Spanish....
> What I lack is a relevant bibliography.


Shame that they apparently don't have the catalogue available online, but here's a list of libraries in Marbella: Directorio - Marbella - Cultura - Bibliotecas

I'm sure if you went there and did a search for "derecho laboral" or sindicatos you'd find a wealth of information. 

Or: 

LIBRERIAS MARCIAL PONS: Libros de Historia de España : Edad Contemporánea : Movimiento obrero. Sindicalismo


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> Shame that they apparently don't have the catalogue available online, but here's a list of libraries in Marbella: Directorio - Marbella - Cultura - Bibliotecas
> 
> I'm sure if you went there and did a search for "derecho laboral" or sindicatos you'd find a wealth of information.
> 
> Or:
> 
> LIBRERIAS MARCIAL PONS: Libros de Historia de España : Edad Contemporánea : Movimiento obrero. Sindicalismo


Thanks..


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## bob_bob

jojo said:


> Altho I agree with you, I'm not convinced that people will turn their backs on Spain altogether. It is still a good place for families, over other places due to the short flight time, which most other "sun, sea and sand" type holidays cant offer!
> 
> There are also companies now who are able to offer under-occupied hotels for seriously next to nothing (£25 BB for a week for two people in a choice of 4* hotels), just to get people over here
> 
> Jo xxx


They won't turn their backs because Spain is near to the UK and at the moment holidays are heavily discounted, at the moment the two week £249 holiday is plastered all over the windows of the local travel agent.

Jo, go and look online at various travel agents and cost a few holidays, two week 4* in Spain and two week 4* all inclusive in places like Cuba or the Dominican Republic...not masses in it any more. Spain needs to be very careful here or it really will end up with just the cheap end of tourism; a shame for a country with so much history and culture.

Cheap hotels and apartments, low cost flights, and cheap holidays worldwide with alpharooms.com covers the cost spectrum from bottom to top, worth a look at; I've had some good deals from them.


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## Pesky Wesky

bob_bob said:


> They won't turn their backs because Spain is near to the UK and at the moment holidays are heavily discounted, at the moment the two week £249 holiday is plastered all over the windows of the local travel agent.
> 
> Jo, go and look online at various travel agents and cost a few holidays, two week 4* in Spain and two week 4* all inclusive in places like Cuba or the Dominican Republic...not masses in it any more. Spain needs to be very careful here or it really will end up with just the cheap end of tourism; a shame for a country with so much history and culture.
> 
> Cheap hotels and apartments, low cost flights, and cheap holidays worldwide with alpharooms.com covers the cost spectrum from bottom to top, worth a look at; I've had some good deals from them.


Will end up with?
Future tense?
I would say smth along the lines of _has been living off the back end of cheap tourism for decades_ and is now trying to expand its reportoire with green Spain, rural tourism, museum tours and the wine industry...


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Will end up with?
> Future tense?
> I would say smth along the lines of _has been living off the back end of cheap tourism for decades_ and is now trying to expand its reportoire with green Spain, rural tourism, museum tours and the wine industry...


Very true. 
Spain, the Costas in particular, has acquired a rather down-market image.
Budget tourists spend little .


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## jojo

bob_bob said:


> They won't turn their backs because Spain is near to the UK and at the moment holidays are heavily discounted, at the moment the two week £249 holiday is plastered all over the windows of the local travel agent.
> 
> Jo, go and look online at various travel agents and cost a few holidays, two week 4* in Spain and two week 4* all inclusive in places like Cuba or the Dominican Republic...not masses in it any more. Spain needs to be very careful here or it really will end up with just the cheap end of tourism; a shame for a country with so much history and culture.
> 
> Cheap hotels and apartments, low cost flights, and cheap holidays worldwide with alpharooms.com covers the cost spectrum from bottom to top, worth a look at; I've had some good deals from them.


I'll say no more than I work within a travel company selling package holidays to Spain and Spanish Islands! I know the prices and I know that to re-generate the industry, prices need to be low. Yes it may encourage people who dont spend a lot of money, but right now is not a good time to pick and choose. Sadly, with the world becoming a smaller place thanks to air travel becoming cheaper, people becoming more inquisitive and braver, Spain is on our doorstep and therefore its going to be the cheap easy option. Thats not to say there arent some beautiful and cultural places to visit, but Spain has to appeal to all. I liken it to how it was 50 years ago in the UK. Butlins etc were very desirable holiday destinations, but as time moved on, suddenly foreign travel - Spain in particular took their place - now we're moving onwards yet again. Spain has to take what it can right now!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I'll say no more than I work within a travel company selling package holidays to Spain and Spanish Islands! I know the prices and I know that to re-generate the industry, prices need to be low. Yes it may encourage people who dont spend a lot of money, but right now is not a good time to pick and choose. Sadly, with the world becoming a smaller place thanks to air travel becoming cheaper, people becoming more inquisitive and braver, Spain is on our doorstep and therefore its going to be the cheap easy option. Thats not to say there arent some beautiful and cultural places to visit, but Spain has to appeal to all. I liken it to how it was 50 years ago in the UK. Butlins etc were very desirable holiday destinations, but as time moved on, suddenly foreign travel - Spain in particular took their place - now we're moving onwards yet again. Spain has to take what it can right now!
> 
> Jo xxx


I hear what you say but going downmarket is one of many options, not the only one. As I keep pointing out - and no-one has refuted it yet - that if your prices are slashed by more than 20% yet your clientele rises by only 5% and that from a low base, you are busy fools. You are working harder for less money.
Spain has a double whammy: cheap booze and cheap packages for the lads and ladettes on the one hand for some parts of the Costas and expensive packages and champagne for the richer chav-types like Katie Price and her ilk in Marbella and Sotogrande.
Ordinary people looking for child-friendly family holidays aren't likely to find either prospect enthralling.
Turkey -and Tunisia -started out as cheap'n' cheerful destinations but soon realised that there was more money to be made by tarting up their image, improving standards all-round and catering to a wealthier clientele looking for quality rather than cheapness.
I heard on Radio 4 this morning that the average middle-class family is a mere £6 a week worse off since the start of the crisis.
Food for thought...


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I hear what you say but going downmarket is one of many options, not the only one. As I keep pointing out - and no-one has refuted it yet - that if your prices are slashed by more than 20% yet your clientele rises by only 5% and that from a low base, you are busy fools. You are working harder for less money.
> Spain has a double whammy: cheap booze and cheap packages for the lads and ladettes on the one hand for some parts of the Costas and expensive packages and champagne for the richer chav-types like Katie Price and her ilk in Marbella and Sotogrande.
> Ordinary people looking for child-friendly family holidays aren't likely to find either prospect enthralling.
> Turkey -and Tunisia -started out as cheap'n' cheerful destinations but soon realised that there was more money to be made by tarting up their image, improving standards all-round and catering to a wealthier clientele looking for quality rather than cheapness.
> I heard on Radio 4 this morning that the average middle-class family is £6 a week worse off since the start of the crisis.
> Food for thought...


What I hope will happen and maybe it is and will continue - is that Spain shows the world that actually it is big enough to accommodate everyone. There are some great package deals for families, there are areas still around for the lads and laddettes AND there is a growing awareness for cultural holidays - Spain has some amazing history and influences that people dont necessarily realise. Of course that needs to be pushed. When you look at the size of Spain and where it is, it has something for everyone!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Will end up with?
> Future tense?
> I would say smth along the lines of _has been living off the back end of cheap tourism for decades_ and is now trying to expand its reportoire with green Spain, rural tourism, museum tours and the wine industry...


Absolutely. Eco-tourism is definitely on the increase; birdwatching, photography, mountain-biking and other activity holidays in rural areas are all showing growth. This is good news because they are usually run by small local businesses and the money stays in the local economy.

Lots of people don´t just pick the cheapest place in the sun for their holidays - they are much more discerning!


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely. Eco-tourism is definitely on the increase; birdwatching, photography, mountain-biking and other activity holidays in rural areas are all showing growth. This is good news because they are usually run by small local businesses and the money stays in the local economy.
> 
> Lots of people don´t just pick the cheapest place in the sun for their holidays - they are much more discerning!



There is also skiing holidays up in the Sierra Nevada in the winter which often gets overlooked. 

Spain is huge, varied, diverse and has so much to offer everyone

Jo xxx


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## Guest

jojo said:


> I'll say no more than I work within a travel company selling package holidays to Spain and Spanish Islands! I know the prices and I know that to re-generate the industry, prices need to be low. Yes it may encourage people who dont spend a lot of money, but right now is not a good time to pick and choose. Sadly, with the world becoming a smaller place thanks to air travel becoming cheaper, people becoming more inquisitive and braver, Spain is on our doorstep and therefore its going to be the cheap easy option. Thats not to say there arent some beautiful and cultural places to visit, but Spain has to appeal to all. I liken it to how it was 50 years ago in the UK. Butlins etc were very desirable holiday destinations, but as time moved on, suddenly foreign travel - Spain in particular took their place - now we're moving onwards yet again. Spain has to take what it can right now!
> 
> Jo xxx


But Jo, I think Pesky Wesky has made a very good point. 

I think Spain DOES appeal to all. Comments made by many in this thread lead me to believe that people are thinking about their particular "Spanish reality." The Spain where the vast majority of you live is NOT the same "Spain" as where I live. There's so many cultural, gastronomic, and adventure tourism options available up here. Think of the Guggenheim, famous even in America. Think of San Sebastian. etc. It's not the same sort of tourist offer to be found in Alicante, Benidorm, etc.


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## jojo

halydia said:


> But Jo, I think Pesky Wesky has made a very good point.
> 
> I think Spain DOES appeal to all. Comments made by many in this thread lead me to believe that people are thinking about their particular "Spanish reality." The Spain where the vast majority of you live is NOT the same "Spain" as where I live. There's so many cultural, gastronomic, and adventure tourism options available up here. Think of the Guggenheim, famous even in America. Think of San Sebastian. etc. It's not the same sort of tourist offer to be found in Alicante, Benidorm, etc.


I agree!! Like I say, Spain is a huge country, diverse in its cultures, climate, terrain and should be marketed to everyones taste! And its not too far to travel from the UK

Jo xxx


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## bob_bob

mrypg9 said:


> I hear what you say but going downmarket is one of many options, not the only one. As I keep pointing out - and no-one has refuted it yet - that if your prices are slashed by more than 20% yet your clientele rises by only 5% and that from a low base, you are busy fools. You are working harder for less money.
> Spain has a double whammy: cheap booze and cheap packages for the lads and ladettes on the one hand for some parts of the Costas and expensive packages and champagne for the richer chav-types like Katie Price and her ilk in Marbella and Sotogrande.
> Ordinary people looking for child-friendly family holidays aren't likely to find either prospect enthralling.
> Turkey -and Tunisia -started out as cheap'n' cheerful destinations but soon realised that there was more money to be made by tarting up their image, improving standards all-round and catering to a wealthier clientele looking for quality rather than cheapness.
> I heard on Radio 4 this morning that the average middle-class family is a mere £6 a week worse off since the start of the crisis.
> Food for thought...


Whats the food like on their planet, £6 is a joke, my food bill alone has gone up a lot more than that lol Plus fuel prices etc. Its not hit me as I'm debt/mortgage free and have a good income, I actually save money every month, but typical younger couples such as my daughter and her partner (nurse and teacher) earn about £55k a year and they have noticed general price increases enough to comment on them.

I suspect the bread and butter income for Spain will be the cut price costas and then hopefully a more divergent trade in eco/cultural tourism.


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> Whats the food like on their planet, £6 is a joke, my food bill alone has gone up a lot more than that lol Plus fuel prices etc. Its not hit me as I'm debt/mortgage free and have a good income, I actually save money every month, but typical younger couples such as my daughter and her partner (nurse and teacher) earn about £55k a year and they have noticed general price increases enough to comment on them.
> 
> I suspect the bread and butter income for Spain will be the cut price costas and then hopefully a more divergent trade in eco/cultural tourism.


I haven't lived in the UK for six years so can't give an opinion on the cost of living. My son and dil are both big earners working in the City in finance and don't worry much about the cost of everyday things. I only occasionally go into food stores when I visit so have no idea of what things cost.
I cannot imagine how many Spaniards survive on their low incomes.
Cut price holidays will not butter much bread, as I keep on pointing out. When we were in business in the UK a competitor started up nearby with the avowed aim of undercutting us and forcing us out of the market. We were not 'cheap' - I personally avoid anything that advertises itself as 'cheap' - but gave good service for a fair price. Result: competitor had more customers to begin with but none who could afford work which would have cost a few £100 or £1000s. So....after a year, competitor, which by then had acquired a cheap'n' cheerful and also slightly dodgy reputation, went out of business. They also earned a reputation for poor quality work as they couldn't afford to employ skilled people. We flourished.
This analogy can be applied to lots of things, including holiday destinations. Spain is not a place for wealthy immigrants, on the whole. Property prices have plummeted and it seems cut-price packages will be the norm for Spain in future. 
To sum up: 'Come to Spain for a cheap holiday and buy a cheap house'.
A friend recently remarked that people's eyebrows raised when she announced she was going to emigrate to Spain....
All this may sound snobbish and to the extent that I wouldn't want to live in an area swamped by lads and ladettes or the likes of Kerry Katona, maybe it is. But then my Spanish neighbours wouldn't like that either.
Spain deserves better than ending up as a destination for those who can't afford to go elsewhere.
PW is right - there are niche markets where Spain is a world leader. These should be developed.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> I cannot imagine how many Spaniards survive on their low incomes.


Family.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> Spain deserves better than ending up as a destination for those who can't afford to go elsewhere.
> PW is right - there are niche markets where Spain is a world leader. These should be developed.


Again, I think you guys need to look beyond where you live. These "niche" markets *ARE* developed *AND* marketed. 

Let's forget British ideas about Spain for a minute and think about American ideas about Northern Spain... I say Bilbao, people think "Guggenheim." I say Pamplona, people think "Running of the Bulls." I say "San Sebastian," people think of the food and/or the film festival. There's a TON of tourism up here and even more in Barcelona/Madrid. It's not just _cutre_ British pseudo-stars soaking up the sun, sex, and sangria in the south! Are we forgetting it is/was the _Año Xacobeo_? There were/are a ton of foreingers (French, German, etc.) crossing the northern half of the country on their pilgrimage to Santiago. 

With all due respect to those who think Spain is becoming a cheap, trashy destination, I think you're wrong and need to look beyond what you see. I guess it'd be like judging Mexico on our impressions of Tijuana... one region doesn't, and shouldn't, make a whole country cheap and trashy.


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> Again, I think you guys need to look beyond where you live. These "niche" markets *ARE* developed *AND* marketed.
> 
> Let's forget British ideas about Spain for a minute and think about American ideas about Northern Spain... I say Bilbao, people think "Guggenheim." I say Pamplona, people think "Running of the Bulls." I say "San Sebastian," people think of the food and/or the film festival. There's a TON of tourism up here and even more in Barcelona/Madrid. It's not just _cutre_ British pseudo-stars soaking up the sun, sex, and sangria in the south! Are we forgetting it is/was the _Año Xacobeo_? There were/are a ton of foreingers (French, German, etc.) crossing the northern half of the country on their pilgrimage to Santiago.
> 
> With all due respect to those who think Spain is becoming a cheap, trashy destination, I think you're wrong and need to look beyond what you see. I guess it'd be like judging Mexico on our impressions of Tijuana... one region doesn't, and shouldn't, make a whole country cheap and trashy.


But we are talking *specifically* of the Costas as a cheap destination....it was just those areas you mention I had in mind when I mentioned developing these niche markets. We all know -or I hope we do - about those places you listed. They may be on the must-see list of cultured Americans and others but I'm afraid that to very many Brits Spain = sun, sea, clubbing, cheap booze and sex. Nothing wrong with those things...they would have attracted me like a magnet when I was young and hard-up and some of them still are high on my list of desirables. We used to spend our summers in a friend's finca in Ibiza. 
Of course discerning people of all nationalities will enjoy a cultural slant to their holiday. But you have to look at how a destination is marketed and sadly, in the UK the cultural/aesthetic attractions of Spain are not given the prominence they deserve.


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> Family.


But as Nigel pointed out, what do you do when the whole family is jobless....
I come into contact with quite a few jobless people and for most there is no future they can see....


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> But as Nigel pointed out, what do you do when the whole family is jobless....
> I come into contact with quite a few jobless people and for most there is no future they can see....


You rely on the abuelos' pension and whatever state handouts you can get, and you get odd jobs on the black wherever you can. Round here there are dozens of unemployed bricklayers are currently picking wild asparagus in the campo and selling it by the side of the road.


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## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> Again, I think you guys need to look beyond where you live. These "niche" markets *ARE* developed *AND* marketed.
> 
> Let's forget British ideas about Spain for a minute and think about American ideas about Northern Spain... I say Bilbao, people think "Guggenheim." I say Pamplona, people think "Running of the Bulls." I say "San Sebastian," people think of the food and/or the film festival. There's a TON of tourism up here and even more in Barcelona/Madrid. It's not just _cutre_ British pseudo-stars soaking up the sun, sex, and sangria in the south! Are we forgetting it is/was the _Año Xacobeo_? There were/are a ton of foreingers (French, German, etc.) crossing the northern half of the country on their pilgrimage to Santiago.
> 
> With all due respect to those who think Spain is becoming a cheap, trashy destination, I think you're wrong and need to look beyond what you see. I guess it'd be like judging Mexico on our impressions of Tijuana... one region doesn't, and shouldn't, make a whole country cheap and trashy.


As far as niche markets go, I have to agree with halydia on this one. The markets *are *developed. They've been working on these markets for 10, 15 years and they've grown steadily, albeit slowly, every year I believe. The big market is still sun and sand, with or without sex (Benidorm??), with or without drugs (think Ibiza etc), gay or straight (think Sitges etc), but other markets have steadily been developed. 
Like I said before, the culture trails(The museum triangle in Madrid which is The Prado, Tyssen and Reina Sofia all in walking distance of each other), the Guggenheim totally tranformed the city of Bilbao - no exaggeration. 
Then Rural Tourism. The popularity of internet really boosted that. If you haven't tried a Rural Hotel/ house you really should. There's a huge range from luxury to normal, with or without food, in the midle of nowhere or in a small town. The Green Spain campaign started in the 1990's
Wine tours from one day in a bodega with lunch after, to a weeks tour with crushed grape massage included!!
That's another huge growth industry; massage, spas, thermal baths. We have been to some wonderful places for the weekend or nearer home for the morning, and very reasonably priced too. They are everywhere now and there are offers all over the place on internet.
Then as Jo said there's skiing in Sierra Nevada, in Madrid (not very good I think) in the Pyrenees, there's adventure tourism with canooing and quads etc, there's a huge selection of walking holidays, yoga retreats, birdwatching, not to mention golf (which I am totally against, but many people enjoy!!)
There's still room for improvement, more publicity, more people, but the general base for many types of tourism is there. Ask me for info if you want! There isn't overbooking yet, but I'm quite happy for it all to go slowly and to avoid the rush developing which spoilt much of the south of Spain.

Where I disagree with halydia is the part about Spain becoming a cheap trashy destination. As I said on a previous post that's past and present, not future. Unfortunately there are a lot of places that are a focus for cheap, trashy holidays where Spain sold its soul for the sake of a few pesetas and a few got rich quick at the expense of the beauty of the coast. Those places exist everywhere, in all countries I mean, and they serve their purpose to those who like it. I think it's great that there are places that provide a cheap, no frills holiday, but I don't think it's necessary, nor a good idea to destroy a place in order to do it.


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as niche markets go, I have to agree with halydia on this one. The markets *are *developed. They've been working on these markets for 10, 15 years and they've grown steadily, albeit slowly, every year I believe. The big market is still sun and sand, with or without sex (Benidorm??), with or without drugs (think Ibiza etc), gay or straight (think Sitges etc), but other markets have steadily been developed.


Quite so. If you look on TripAdvisor for the 25 best things to do in Spain, none of them involve sun, sand, sex or drugs.


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## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> But we are talking *specifically* of the Costas as a cheap destination....it was just those areas you mention I had in mind when I mentioned developing these niche markets. We all know -or I hope we do - about those places you listed. They may be on the must-see list of cultured Americans and others but I'm afraid that to very many Brits Spain = sun, sea, clubbing, cheap booze and sex. Nothing wrong with those things...they would have attracted me like a magnet when I was young and hard-up and some of them still are high on my list of desirables. We used to spend our summers in a friend's finca in Ibiza.
> Of course discerning people of all nationalities will enjoy a cultural slant to their holiday. But you have to look at how a destination is marketed and sadly, in the UK the cultural/aesthetic attractions of Spain are not given the prominence they deserve.


I wasn't aware that you were speaking of just the southern "costas," as the word "Spain" was being used. 

Sorry.


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## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> You rely on the abuelos' pension and whatever state handouts you can get, and you get odd jobs on the black wherever you can. Round here there are dozens of unemployed bricklayers are currently picking wild asparagus in the campo and selling it by the side of the road.


That, and the fact that the concept of family here seems to be a whole lot wider than it is in many other cultures. 

OH's grandma's cousin cut the lawn for us last week. I don't even know my Grandma's cousins.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as niche markets go, I have to agree with halydia on this one. The markets *are *developed. They've been working on these markets for 10, 15 years and they've grown steadily, albeit slowly, every year I believe. The big market is still sun and sand, with or without sex (Benidorm??), with or without drugs (think Ibiza etc), gay or straight (think Sitges etc), but other markets have steadily been developed.
> Like I said before, the culture trails(The museum triangle in Madrid which is The Prado, Tyssen and Reina Sofia all in walking distance of each other), the Guggenheim totally tranformed the city of Bilbao - no exaggeration.
> Then Rural Tourism. The popularity of internet really boosted that. If you haven't tried a Rural Hotel/ house you really should. There's a huge range from luxury to normal, with or without food, in the midle of nowhere or in a small town. The Green Spain campaign started in the 1990's
> Wine tours from one day in a bodega with lunch after, to a weeks tour with crushed grape massage included!!
> That's another huge growth industry; massage, spas, thermal baths. We have been to some wonderful places for the weekend or nearer home for the morning, and very reasonably priced too. They are everywhere now and there are offers all over the place on internet.
> Then as Jo said there's skiing in Sierra Nevada, in Madrid (not very good I think) in the Pyrenees, there's adventure tourism with canooing and quads etc, there's a huge selection of walking holidays, yoga retreats, birdwatching, not to mention golf (which I am totally against, but many people enjoy!!)
> There's still room for improvement, more publicity, more people, but the general base for many types of tourism is there. Ask me for info if you want! There isn't overbooking yet, but I'm quite happy for it all to go slowly and to avoid the rush developing which spoilt much of the south of Spain.
> 
> Where I disagree with halydia is the part about Spain becoming a cheap trashy destination. As I said on a previous post that's past and present, not future. Unfortunately there are a lot of places that are a focus for cheap, trashy holidays where Spain sold its soul for the sake of a few pesetas and a few got rich quick at the expense of the beauty of the coast. Those places exist everywhere, in all countries I mean, and they serve their purpose to those who like it. I think it's great that there are places that provide a cheap, no frills holiday, but I don't think it's necessary, nor a good idea to destroy a place in order to do it.


Agree with all you say...but my point is that the way Spain is marketed in the U.K. concentrates on the cheap and rather trashy and that what is for the U.K. a niche market should be promoted more vigorously.
So we're all agreeing.....
In our neck of the woods the family holiday reigns supreme. Wealthy middle-class families from Madrid come with their maids to spend August in their houses and apartments. Super-rich Russians rent the larger villas for ridiculous amounts. A small apartment can be rented for £700 plus a week here in the season.
Last year I noticed a large number of French families. Few Brits.
Our beach is quiet and perfect for the old-fashioned type of holiday relaxing by the sea.


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## mrypg9

halydia said:


> I wasn't aware that you were speaking of just the southern "costas," as the word "Spain" was being used.
> 
> Sorry.


For most Brits, the Costas _*are *_Spain....


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> For most Brits, the Costas _*are *_Spain....


Then let´s all stop perpetuating that myth!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Then let´s all stop perpetuating that myth!


Sadly it isn't a myth for far too many. And as old Karl M. said, 'False consciousness is a motivating force'......Or something along those lines.
But it's the promotion people/advertising industry that pushes that view.


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## bob_bob

The costas have always = cheap and cheerful for the most part and nothing wrong in that. My wife's father was a coal miner, money was tight but he made sure that for two weeks of the year he, his wife and four children had two weeks of sunshine and comparative luxury and this concept has not changed for tens of thousands of families even today. As I said in an earlier reply being delayed for a day or two is a major event for thousands of folk who have often had to scrimp and save for their spot on the beach, their fourteen days away from the worry of everyday life and this should perhaps be remembered before we give what some see as rather curt replies about it not being a big deal. Those delays lead to tears, arguments and general unhappiness in many cases so lets not display such a smug and snobbish attitude in replies bearing in mind this is an open forum. 

This is a great forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of posts but one or two here should have a reality check and think before they apply fingers to keyboard IMHO.


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## mrypg9

bob_bob said:


> The costas have always = cheap and cheerful for the most part and nothing wrong in that. My wife's father was a coal miner, money was tight but he made sure that for two weeks of the year he, his wife and four children had two weeks of sunshine and comparative luxury and this concept has not changed for tens of thousands of families even today. As I said in an earlier reply being delayed for a day or two is a major event for thousands of folk who have often had to scrimp and save for their spot on the beach, their fourteen days away from the worry of everyday life and this should perhaps be remembered before we give what some see as rather curt replies about it not being a big deal. Those delays lead to tears, arguments and general unhappiness in many cases so lets not display such a smug and snobbish attitude in replies bearing in mind this is an open forum.
> 
> This is a great forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of posts but one or two here should have a reality check and think before they apply fingers to keyboard IMHO.


I freely admit to being what some people might see as snobbish in not finding desirable the antics of some people here, whether on cheap'n' cheerful holidays or swigging champagne in Puerto Banus.
I too come from a working-class background and our 'holiday' was a day out to the coast on a train. My widowed mother couldn't afford fourteen days in the sun anywhere, let alone on the Costas.
I learnt from my upbringing that having work so you could put food on the table was more important than a comparatively minor inconvenience. 
So two points: 1) I cannot change my view that anyone's inconvenience at having to wait around in an airport is more important than the fight of mainly low-paid people to keep their jobs so as to be able to feed their family. 
I know we live in a 'I'm alright Jack' society but my early life taught me the value of considering the welfare of others before my own comparatively trivial concerns. Until a couple of years ago I did a weekly air commute to the UK so I've probably spent more time waiting in airports for a variety of reasons than most - strikes, snow, thunderstorms, technical faults on aircraft. Delays are a common feature of flying.
2) I would like to see Spain offer family holidays at reasonable prices. What I think is ultimately unhelpful to the economy is to go downmarket as in the end it is unaffordable.


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## littleredrooster

bob_bob said:


> The costas have always = cheap and cheerful for the most part and nothing wrong in that. My wife's father was a coal miner, money was tight but he made sure that for two weeks of the year he, his wife and four children had two weeks of sunshine and comparative luxury and this concept has not changed for tens of thousands of families even today. As I said in an earlier reply being delayed for a day or two is a major event for thousands of folk who have often had to scrimp and save for their spot on the beach, their fourteen days away from the worry of everyday life and this should perhaps be remembered before we give what some see as rather curt replies about it not being a big deal. Those delays lead to tears, arguments and general unhappiness in many cases so lets not display such a smug and snobbish attitude in replies bearing in mind this is an open forum.
> 
> This is a great forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of posts but one or two here should have a reality check and think before they apply fingers to keyboard IMHO.


Quite agree bob, everyone to their own or whatever they can best afford.
A little more thought and understanding by those amongst us in more privileged situations would not go amiss.


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## mrypg9

littleredrooster said:


> Quite agree bob, everyone to their own or whatever they can best afford.
> A little more thought and understanding by those amongst us in more privileged situations would not go amiss.


I disagree with you profoundly and I am in no way 'privileged' compared to many.
If I am now slightly more 'comfortable' than a few it comes after many years of counting carefully before considering holidays of any price.
What we are talking about here is *values. *And if you go back and read Pesky's last post she has made some incontrovertible points.
Why should any country be ravaged to provide holidays however cheap or expensive to suit the pockets and tastes of tourists from others?
And since when has anyone had the 'right' to a holiday in the sun?


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## jojo

bob_bob said:


> This is a great forum and I've enjoyed the vast majority of posts but one or two here should have a reality check and think before they apply fingers to keyboard IMHO.



Chill!!! We're all different, from different places, different generations, different lifestyles, different values......... and that what makes the forum interesting 

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Sadly it isn't a myth for far too many. And as old Karl M. said, 'False consciousness is a motivating force'......Or something along those lines.
> But it's the promotion people/advertising industry that pushes that view.


I meant the myth that there isn't much of interest in Spain away from the costas. Not that some people think there isn't.

You still don't seem to be getting the message that the tourist industry these days *is* promoting other forms of tourism, for all it's worth. As has already been said, you can get sun and sea anywhere, but Spain's other treasures are unique. 

And who has most of the spending power these days? The "grey pound" may yet be our saviour ... you should see the queues outside the sherry bodegas in Jerez!


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## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> I meant the myth that there isn't much of interest in Spain away from the costas. Not that some people think there isn't.
> 
> You still don't seem to be getting the message that the tourist industry these days *is* promoting other forms of tourism, for all it's worth. As has already been said, you can get sun and sea anywhere, but Spain's other treasures are unique.
> 
> And who has most of the spending power these days? The "grey pound" may yet be our saviour ... you should see the queues outside the sherry bodegas in Jerez!



There are two main forces here! Theres the huge quantity of families and people who come on holiday to Spain and dont give a flying fig about culture, history or sherry. They want a cheap, sometimes boozy holiday in the sun with the kids or with their mates thats not too far away and good on em! The adverts we see are designed to appeal to those people in the main, simply cos there are more of them. Dont knock em, they are part of the reason for Spains success - even if some of them are horrendous! Do they spend?? Well quantity over quality et al - yes, they do and en masse its enough to keep things going!

The more discerning traveller, doesnt really respond to the trashy ads in the media and doesnt subscribe to "sun, sea and sangria" type holidays. But if they do their homework, which many who like to see and discover various cultures and history do, will find a wealth of info about Spain. In any case, there are adverts all around about Spains history, its mountains, its culture and its infamous produce. Gatwick Airport has enormous bill boards eveywhere about Andalucia's culture. 

And lets not forget the skiing in the Sierra Nevada - you see something for everyone and plenty of space so that the different type of holiday maker dont have to ever meet!

I personally like a holiday with a bit of both, but not too much of either - thats excluding skiing BTW, thats never appealed to me!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I meant the myth that there isn't much of interest in Spain away from the costas. Not that some people think there isn't.
> 
> You still don't seem to be getting the message that the tourist industry these days *is* promoting other forms of tourism, for all it's worth. As has already been said, you can get sun and sea anywhere, but Spain's other treasures are unique.
> 
> And who has most of the spending power these days? The "grey pound" may yet be our saviour ... you should see the queues outside the sherry bodegas in Jerez!


 I must say that I have yet to find promotion in the mainstream media of the many other attractions Spain has to offer in the UK.
There are small ads in the quality press and journals like the Spectator, New Stateman, true. 
But tv and mass media ads in general push a different angle... sun and sea is the 'unique selling point'.
I do agree about the 'grey pound' - not that I've got many of those left after several visits to the dentist with more to come. Older people do on the whole prefer more tranquil and leisurely pursuits although no doubt there are a few ageing swingers in Marbella.
I first visited Spain in the late sixties. We drove from London through France, crossed on the western side then travelled down to Malaga, cut across to Granada and from there to Madrid, the Atlantic coast and home along the western coast of France.
Alicante was small and reminded me of Bournemouth. Torrevieja was a village.
The first high-rises were springing up in Benidorm.
I was arrested by the Guardia Civil near Ciudad Real for alleged 'dangerous driving' and was kept in a whitewashed 'cell' while my then husband argued about the amount of fine we should pay.
They won.
The costas from Rosas to the south were largely unspoilt and extremely beautiful. 
No horrible 'urbs', very little high-rise..... When I visited again some seven years ago I couldn't believe my eyes.
I know that Spain got many benefits from the development of mass tourism. But tourists are fickle and move on to the next destination. The legacy of mass tourism and the related boom in construction has not been positive.
Many other parts of the world that were previously unspoilt have been changed beyond recognition by our northern desires for inexpensive and expensive holidays in the sun.
In the end, who benefits the most?


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I must say that I have yet to find promotion in the mainstream media of the many other attractions Spain has to offer in the UK.
> There are small ads in the quality press and journals like the Spectator, New Stateman, true.


Like I say, there are plenty of adverts around about the beauty of Spain, but they dont target the main stream with that type of advert! The skill of a good advert is to target the right audience with the right impression for as little a cost as possible

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> . In any case, there are adverts all around about Spains history, its mountains, its culture and its infamous produce. Gatwick Airport has enormous bill boards eveywhere about Andalucia's culture.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Honestly, I have yet to see such adverts, Jo...although I rarely use Gatwick so I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see those ads for Andalucia you mention.
They sound good.
The ads I come across are mainly on Sky, in the red top press and similar.
My son and dil changed their skiing venue from New England to the Sierra Nevada and loved it. 
We've just booked to spend a few days in the Alentejo region of Portugal. We're staying in a house that dates from the seventeenth century.....which was renovated as a hotel in 1900....
A night's stay with breakfast is very cheap and I hope cheerful.
We learnt about this apparently very beautiful, undisturbed part of Portugal from our dental nurse who hails from that region.
I have only ever seen the Algarve advertised...


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## Alcalaina

It's not just travel shows. Programmes like these do Spain's image no harm at all:

A Cook's Tour of Spain - Channel 4

Spain - On The Road Again

BBC - BBC Four Programmes - On Hannibal's Trail

BBC - BBC Four Programmes - The Art of Spain, The Mystical North

Flavours Of Spain | Travel Channel: Our Programmes

I just wish James May and Oz Clark would tour a Spanish wine tour. Those two have me in stitches!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> It's not just travel shows. Programmes like these do Spain's image no harm at all:
> 
> A Cook's Tour of Spain - Channel 4
> 
> Spain - On The Road Again
> 
> BBC - BBC Four Programmes - On Hannibal's Trail
> 
> BBC - BBC Four Programmes - The Art of Spain, The Mystical North
> 
> Flavours Of Spain | Travel Channel: Our Programmes
> 
> I just wish James May and Oz Clark would tour a Spanish wine tour. Those two have me in stitches!


Yes, I saw some of those.
I wonder how many more apart from us, though......BBC Four has some great stuff but doesn't attract a huge audience, sadly.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Honestly, I have yet to see such adverts, Jo...although I rarely use Gatwick so I wouldn't have had the opportunity to see those ads for Andalucia you mention.
> They sound good.
> The ads I come across are mainly on Sky, in the red top press and similar.
> My son and dil changed their skiing venue from New England to the Sierra Nevada and loved it.
> We've just booked to spend a few days in the Alentejo region of Portugal. We're staying in a house that dates from the seventeenth century.....which was renovated as a hotel in 1900....
> A night's stay with breakfast is very cheap and I hope cheerful.
> We learnt about this apparently very beautiful, undisturbed part of Portugal from our dental nurse who hails from that region.
> I have only ever seen the Algarve advertised...



You know your trouble Mary, you dont read the "right" papers, watch the "right" tv or use the "right" airport!!! Put that Daily Mail down! :tape: (only joking)

Seriously tho, those people who want more from their holidays will often go out of their way to find out about places and then make the plans to visit. Afterall adverting is pretty tacky in the main and aimed at the gullible !

My friends went to Portugal recently and they didnt like it - I cant remember whereabouts they went, it certainly wasnt the Algarve or anywhere touristy. They live in a small village in France and during the winter months they drive - well all over the place exploring! They came to visit me en route to get a bit of "England" - he missed full english breakfasts, sunday roasts, english TV and football etc - so they came to the costa del sol lol!!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> You know your trouble Mary, you dont read the "right" papers, watch the "right" tv or use the "right" airport!!! :tape: (only joking)
> 
> Seriously tho, those people who want more from their holidays will often go out of their way to find out about places and then make the plans to visit. Afterall adverting is pretty tacky in the main and aimed at the gullible !
> 
> My friends went to Portugal recently and they didnt like it - I cant remember whereabouts they went, it certainly wasnt the Algarve or anywhere touristy. They live in a small village in France and during the winter months they drive - well all over the place exploring! They came to visit me en route to get a bit of "England" - he missed full english breakfasts, sunday roasts, english TV and football etc - so they came to the costa del sol lol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


You're right....I mainly read the Mail (to post rude things) and the Independent plus The Economist which doesn't do ads.
We watch Sky Atlantic for 'Law and Order', repeat of the whole 'Sopranos' series (surely the best thing ever on tv) and 'Without a Trace', BBC Four for some things and 'Newsnight'.
Sandra used to read 'Hello' and similar magazines but seems to have given up on them. When I glanced through them if ever they did a piece featuring Spain it was always Marbella or Sotogrande or some posh golf resort.
I've never been to Portugal...so I'm really looking forward to it although I'm wondering a bit about a cheapish hotel dating from 1600 something that was 'modernised' in 1900.........Main thing is that Our Little Azor will be welcome there.
Like you I have managed to avoid skiing. Whenever it has been suggested -my Czech friends have a house in the mountains - I have managed to come up with a reason for staying by the fire with a book.
My last and most definitive was that my insurance policy didn't cover me for dangerous sports.


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## Nignoy

Well looks like for the part of our visit to spain that was actually going to be a holiday is well and truly bolloxed, because Iberia is now cancelling all flights to Fuerteventura after months of organisation and advanced boookings ,in which Iberia have changed the flight times to many times to mention, now as of 6am eastern time, they have just sent us 7 emails repeating the same message, until further notice your flight is cancelled!! please contact us by phone to make other arrangements, wifey is s till asleep, she is going to love this news when she wakes up!now use advertising the culture and beauty of spain if they cannot even supply a reliable means of transport for people to experience it, pleased be warned if a rowing boat with 3 chubby persons wearing Akubras is sighted in the ocean heading for the canary islands, it is not a nato invasion!! only 3 disabled pensioners trying to salvage at least some of the 6482 euros and16 cents, centavos, pennies or what ever they call the fiddly little brass things which has been paid in advance not for the cultured wine women and song of the costas, but for a 21 day holiday in the canaries.As some one mentioned earlier, it definitely is a bit of an I,m not alright jack attitude, do all the right things, plenty of sandwiches , flasks of tea ,toilet tissues for the porta loo and then this, well the iberia 24hour hotline seems to be stone cold, it must be siesta or something, It does not bode well for the 14 week holiday which starts on the 31st. I think spain needs to sort a few things out, and put its house in order, as far as tourism and overdevelopment are concerned, the rural and cultural opportunities are there, such a wonderful blank canvas to work with and nuture, But as long as the spanish tourism moguls , dont cater for tourists who want to see the history and natural wonders of spain.When I started to organise this trip I sent out an itinery to travel agents a nd tourist agencies, no one was interested apart from trying to sell us their products and resorts,so we did it all ourselves, and not on a shoestring either, just hope the Iberia does not cancel the flights from heathrow to madrid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Alcalaina

I remember wondering when Iberia merged with British Airways, whether they would raise BA´s service to Iberia´s standards. But sadly it looks like the opposite has happened.

So sorry to hear of your woes, hope you can sort something out.


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## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with all you say...but my point is that the way Spain is marketed in the U.K. concentrates on the cheap and rather trashy and that what is for the U.K. a niche market should be promoted more vigorously.
> So we're all agreeing.....
> In our neck of the woods the family holiday reigns supreme. Wealthy middle-class families from Madrid come with their maids to spend August in their houses and apartments. Super-rich Russians rent the larger villas for ridiculous amounts. A small apartment can be rented for £700 plus a week here in the season.
> Last year I noticed a large number of French families. Few Brits.
> Our beach is quiet and perfect for the old-fashioned type of holiday relaxing by the sea.


Very impressed to be sure, though I would say that the arrogance and bad manners of some of the super rich Ruskie mafia mob, would make UK yobs appear quite polite by comparison.
As other posters say give punters what they want. The fact that you regard UK budget holidays as cheap and trashy is arguable. The days of the 30 quid all in package are long gone, and what you now look on as budget class, may now appear quite expensive to some, most especially in these troubled times. 
Whether you like it or not, the fact is that many thousands of hotels and apts have been constructed over the past 50 years to cater for so called budget holidays each one able to accomodate hundreds of tourists.
What to do ?
Knock them all down and build a single villa in place of each one to cater for your wealthy families from Madrid ?
I'm sure that would be great for the Spanish economy. 
The fact is that most of the punters who save up as best they can for their budget holiday in the Sun do spend quite freely when they arrive, maybe more so than your rich Madrid friends who don't necessarily circulate amongst the "trashy" types, if they even do go out and spend at all.
Fortunately not everyone is a Daily Wail readers these days, and most ppl. are very well aware of all the possible alternative holidays through numerous other channels readily available at their finger tips.
The situation is not unique to Spain and most other destinations also offer up-market and rural alternatives, but like Spain they also have enough sense not to bite the hand that feeds them.


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## jojo

littleredrooster said:


> Very impressed to be sure, though I would say that the arrogance and bad manners of some of the super rich Ruskie mafia mob, would make UK yobs appear quite polite by comparison.
> As other posters say give punters what they want. The fact that you regard UK budget holidays as cheap and trashy is arguable. The days of the 30 quid all in package are long gone, and what you now look on as budget class, may now appear quite expensive to some, most especially in these troubled times.
> Whether you like it or not, the fact is that many thousands of hotels and apts have been constructed over the past 50 years to cater for so called budget holidays each one able to accomodate hundreds of tourists.
> What to do ?
> Knock them all down and build a single villa in place of each one to cater for your wealthy families from Madrid ?
> I'm sure that would be great for the Spanish economy.
> The fact is that most of the punters who save up as best they can for their budget holiday in the Sun do spend quite freely when they arrive, maybe more so than your rich Madrid friends who don't necessarily circulate amongst the "trashy" types, if they even do go out and spend at all.
> Fortunately not everyone is a Daily Wail readers these days, and most ppl. are very well aware of all the possible alternative holidays through numerous other channels readily available at their finger tips.
> The situation is not unique to Spain and most other destinations also offer up-market and rural alternatives, but like Spain they also have enough sense not to bite the hand that feeds them.



Agreed! I dont know how many times I've said that Spain is a big country, with diverse cultures, history, scenery, beaches etc. Somtething for everyone, the cultured, rich, budget, philistines, families............ It matters not, it all helps Spain in varying degrees!

I'm now going to close this post cos its wwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy off topic!!!

Jo xxxx


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