# Acceptable Proof of Travel Accross Country Borders



## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, thanks to the locking of yet another one of my threads (again through no fault of my own) I find myself having to start another. I think this question probably warrants it's own thread anyway, so perhaps it's a blessing in disguise.

Basically, I'm now trying to find out whether there are any 'offically' accepted methods for proving I've been out of the country so that I can prove I have complied with the 90-day rule. I thought about buying an iPad in the previous thread, they record your movement and plot it out on a map so I just assumed it must be ideal. It was then pointed out that it would not be acceptable. It was suggested to keep receipts when filling up, but I don't see why that is any more solid proof than the tracking of an iPad.

So I'm wondering, as it's the Spanish that impose this rule, do they have a guide which outlines what they will accept as proof? They say the onus is on us to prove where we were, so I'm just assuming they must have a list of what is acceptable to them as proof. Is there a document that details this (doesn't matter whether it's in English or Spanish), something that it is produced by them and lists what is acceptable proof for the 90-day rule? So that's all I'm asking here, what is officially acceptable to them, and where can I find the official information about it?

Any help appreciated, but please, do not degenerate my thread into an interrogation like the last two that got locked. I'm not answering anything that isn't related to what I'm asking about and that is the policy I should have adopted from the start. SNIP/


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> Well, thanks to the locking of yet another one of my threads (again through no fault of my own) I find myself having to start another. I think this question probably warrants it's own thread anyway, so perhaps it's a blessing in disguise.
> 
> Basically, I'm now trying to find out whether there are any 'offically' accepted methods for proving I've been out of the country so that I can prove I have complied with the 90-day rule. I thought about buying an iPad in the previous thread, they record your movement and plot it out on a map so I just assumed it must be ideal. It was then pointed out that it would not be acceptable. It was suggested to keep receipts when filling up, but I don't see why that is any more solid proof than the tracking of an iPad.
> 
> ...


they like to see tickets, my husband kept all of his flight tickets and parking tickets. A friend of mine who was stopped routinely driving a UK registered car had to produce his ferry ticket, show his passport and even I as a passenger had to show my passport and NIE/residencia and was then questioned about my relationship with the vehicle. They even wanted my parents names, to check that they tallied with what was on my residencia - eventho
I made it quite clear I was a passenger only and simply showing someone the way

Jo


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## sarakas (Feb 5, 2013)

Hiya, just a quick question/ thought....... If your doing the 90 day rule, wouldn't you have to be out of Spain for 9 months? Because surely if you leave for a month and then come back for another 90 days wouldn't you then need to register as a resident? I think what I'm trying to ask or say is you can only use the 90 day rule once in 12 months? Please correct me if I'm wrong. As some people may be aware, I'm going to madrid at the end of September for 3 months to be with my BF so it would be handy for me to know. Sorry for hijacking your post


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

I wouldn't be a resident though, and I will only ever cross water once a year unless I'm in Ibiza. To be fair, even if I'd got residency I would still have parted the country that often, perhaps even more often because I want to explore France, Portugal and Germany as well.

The only burden is having to get an MOT in the UK, but at least that's only once a year, not every 90 days. As far as I'm concerned the 90-day thing is better for me than a residency apart from the MOT. So the thing is, I won't have lots of ferry tickets and absolutely no plane tickets. The only travel ticket I'd have is just one return ticket per year and that will either be for the ferry or the channel tunnel due to renewing the MOT.

For the rest of my time it's no problem at all because I will only be crossing land-connected borders. It's really only those types of borders I'm wanting to prove that I have crossed. Ferry or channel tunnel, no problem, but what about the rest? Surely there's a list of what they officially accept somewhere on one of their websites?


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

No problem sarakas, ask away


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Sarakas, as I understand it you can come back as many times as you like in a year as long as it doesn't exceed 180 days total in a year. That said, you cannot stay more than 90 days at a time.
Whether I am correct or not is something I never seem to know myself, so don't take that as fact.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sarakas said:


> Hiya, just a quick question/ thought....... If your doing the 90 day rule, wouldn't you have to be out of Spain for 9 months? Because surely if you leave for a month and then come back for another 90 days wouldn't you then need to register as a resident? I think what I'm trying to ask or say is you can only use the 90 day rule once in 12 months? Please correct me if I'm wrong. As some people may be aware, I'm going to madrid at the end of September for 3 months to be with my BF so it would be handy for me to know. Sorry for hijacking your post


no it doesn't work like that for EU citizens - you can come to Spain as often as you like for as long as you like

it's just that after 90 consecutive days that you are required by Spain to register as resident ...leaving & coming back before those 90 days are up would theoretically mean that you never have to - though it could be argued by the authorities that just hopping over the border for a day was cheating a bit.... 

as long as, if questioned, you can prove that you've been in Spain less than 3 months, then you should be fine

unless you're stopped frequently for whatever reason & they have records that you're in Spain more than out - then 'they' might decide that you are really resident


tax residency is triggered if you spend 182+ days in a calendar year (not necessarily consecutive ) - that's a totally separate issue to registering as resident


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## sarakas (Feb 5, 2013)

EX-1 said:


> Sarakas, as I understand it you can come back as many times as you like in a year as long as it doesn't exceed 180 days total in a year. That said, you cannot stay more than 90 days at a time. Whether I am correct or not is something I never seem to know myself, so don't take that as fact.


Cool


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## sarakas (Feb 5, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> no it doesn't work like that for EU citizens - you can come to Spain as often as you like for as long as you like it's just that after 90 consecutive days that youare required by Spain to register as resident ...leaving & coming back before those 90 days are up would theoretically mean that you never have to - though it could be argued by the authorities that just hopping over the border for a day was cheating a bit.... as long as, if questioned, you can prove that you've been in Spain less than 3 months, then you should be fine unless you're stopped frequently for whatever reason & they have records that you're in Spain more than out - then 'they' might decide that you are really resident


Thank you for clearing that up!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

There is (or was when I last went across the border) a police post where they, if they have a mind to do so, will check passports. Go in there and ask for your passport to be stamped.

As a maximum, you will only be able to exercise the 90-day rule twice, because beyond that you will get caught by the 183-day rule (which do not have to be continuous) and be automatically treated as a tax-resident.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> There is (or was when I last went across the border) a police post where they, if they have a mind to do so, will check passports. Go in there and ask for your passport to be stamped.
> 
> As a maximum, you will only be able to exercise the 90-day rule twice, because beyond that you will get caught by the 183-day rule (which do not have to be continuous) and be automatically treated as a tax-resident.


So you could theoretically spend almost 90 days in each European country and when you crossed the border ask nicely if they would stamp your passport, giving the reason that you were a traveller who wanted to ensure you were never considered to be resident in any country?

Sounds like an interesting thing to try. If you were to do this would you still be classed as a Uk citizen or would you lose your citizenship? But at some point you would spend 183 days in some place (maybe over the course of a few years) does that mean you have become resident in that country..

I think I need a cup of tea... And will just carry on dreaming of the day we can make it spain..


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

*Sarakas, *enjoy your trip 


*Baldi*, that's awesome, sounds like just the "ticket" (sorry) 
Which border are you talking about, France or Portugal?

No problem regards the Tax residency thing, I genuinely won't be there for 183 days a year anyway, it'll be more like 130-150 days. My plan is to do a loop where basically I get a new MOT, leave England, then loop between Germany, France, Spain (Ibiza), and Portugal. Back to the UK the following year just to top-up the MOT, then leave once more and so the loop starts again.

And I might as well tell you, I plan to gather a few contacts in the right places whenever I'm in Ibiza, and eventually, set up a prestige design business there. Ibiza is the only place in Europe I would settle, buy property and run a business. Travelling comes first though, I'm in no rush to set up a business no matter how fancy or how much potential profit is missed while I wait.


*Barrie,* if it were that easy to lose your British citizenship I would have done it long ago, my god, if only it were that easy


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Barriej said:


> So you could theoretically spend almost 90 days in each European country and when you crossed the border ask nicely if they would stamp your passport, giving the reason that you were a traveller who wanted to ensure you were never considered to be resident in any country?
> 
> Sounds like an interesting thing to try. If you were to do this would you still be classed as a Uk citizen or would you lose your citizenship? But at some point you would spend 183 days in some place (maybe over the course of a few years) does that mean you have become resident in that country..
> 
> I think I need a cup of tea... And will just carry on dreaming of the day we can make it spain..


I dont fully understand it all, but at some point you have to declare a main residence - when we moved to Spain, altho the family and I lived in Spain, my husband chose the UK as we had a house there and his business was there. I believe for folk who work all over or oil rigs and arent in any one place for more than 182 days, they have to make a declaration, which is usually where the family/main home is.

I know for a fact that you can not remain a traveler - you have to belong to a country, but within reason (and Europe) you can chose where that is. Flitting between them isnt the answer and if anything will attract attention

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> *Barrie,* if it were that easy to lose your British citizenship I would have done it long ago, my god, if only it were that easy


It isnt!!!!!!

If it were, there would be a huge amount of nomads/refugees floating around Europe and who would be untraceable - can you imagine lol?? Europes prisons would be empty lol

Jo xxxx


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> It isnt!!!!!!
> 
> If it were, there would be a huge amount of nomads/refugees floating around Europe and who would be untraceable - can you imagine lol?? Europes prisons would be empty lol
> 
> Jo xxxx


Yeah, it's a real shame you can't get rid of your British citizenship that easily. Makes me wonder though, what would happen if a European citizen came to Spain from England, as a tourist, and lost all their money. On the one hand they cannot afford to get back to England (yay), and on the other they would be permanently living in Spain because they cannot afford to leave.


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## castaway06 (Jul 25, 2014)

Ex-1 in your hippy fantasy have you factored in the cost of the ferry every 90 days?

I just checked Ibiza-Barcelona is 500 euros return for a transit van and one passenger who is non-resident ...... 

Just though I'd point that out


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Be glad you're not American! 


This thread is digressing back to the old issue yet again of the OP not wanting to have a citizenship! We've answered that question several times and each time he isn't satisfied with the answer!
Hence those threads have been closed!

So please stick to only answering the question, which is how do the authorities know how long he has been in Spain, the definitive answer to that is for him to contact the "police nacional" They will tell him. 
Although the Guardia, if/when asking 'on the spot' will request whatever proof they like

Jo


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

*Castaway*, no problem, I appreciate the comment about the ferry, but I already know about that and indeed, savings are already put aside for it. The prices are crippling and without being a resident they're even worse. That said, I had to laugh at the _"Hippy Fantasy"_ comment 

I totally dig the hippy thing but I'm not a hippy. I'm just a person that refuses to do the 9-5 rat race, simple as that. You live once, I won't be spending mine being a 9-5 muppet.

I'm not some deeply philosophical soul with fantasies about becoming a hippy, I'm just way ahead of the game when it comes to *not* lumbering myself with debt and mortgages. My philoshopy is a simple one: If you live by the simple rule *not* to get drawn into things you cannot afford, you are free from the 9-5 rat race. Buy everything outright and *you* are in control, it's paid for and you own it. *Never* deviate from that philosophy because as soon as you borrow something, *they* are in control, you are on a leash, you become their bi*ch from the moment you give your signature.

Just thought I'd return the good deed of giving advice. It's up to the individual reading it to decide whether it's good or bad, and to do what they think is best for them. Either way, it won't effect me because I live a debt-free life and always will. Like I said, I simply want to travel and that's what I'm going to do. I can do that *because* I refused to lumber myself with debt and a mortgage, it's not some miraculous gift, it's just common sense - people need to understand that.

I'm under no obligation to do the 9-5 slavery till I die, and guess what, I won't be 



*Jo*, as is clear from the threads here, it's the 'Spanish Beurocracy' that is stopping me being resident. The sooner I become resident the better, but that will have to wait until I'm ready to set up a business in Ibiza, that's the only time I'll get residency. I would like residency now, but due to to the way they tax over there, they can keep it until I decide to set up business.



*Baldi,* thanks once again for the heads-up on the passport stamp. It's ideal because they cannot deny a border patrol stamp on a passport, it's perfect. I also get to save £500 on an an iPad which in turn will pay for another ferry crossing to Ibiza!

Anyway, thanks all (well almost all). You all think I'm crazy but that's ok, I think you lot are as well, lumbering yourselves with mortgages and all that other slavery stuff. I just hope that those that haven't signed their lives away yet, will read my post carefully and understand *why* I'm free to do what I'm going to do. If ever you find yourself needing a loan or a mortgage, the *only* reason you need it is because *you can't afford to buy the item you need to borrow for*. That alone should tell you to steer clear because if you can't afford the item, then you can't afford the loan either.

Don't do it.

Peace :hippie:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

> Jo, as is clear from the threads here, it's the 'Spanish Beurocracy' that is stopping me being resident. The sooner I become resident the better, but that will have to wait until I'm ready to set up a business in Ibiza, that's the only time I'll get residency. I would like residency now, but due to to the way they tax over there, they can keep it until I decide to set up business.


Hhhmmm, now what would I say to that?????? Answer: If you dont like Spanish bureaucracy or any other bureaucracy then dont go there. They're not going to change it just for you!

Apart from that, I doubt anyone is interested in your reasons, but I will point out that it is YOU that is straying off topic (your complaint and you were only going to answer related questions) So the protect you, anything else posted that isnt about Acceptable Proof of Travel Across Country Borders will be deleted

Jo


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Let me just pose one question here: What, exactly, is your goal? Because you say you don't want to establish residence.. by that do you mean* tax *residence, or residence in general (e.g. to get a residence card of some variety). Because the rules can be different for the two kinds of residence.

I don't know what Spain's rules are on residence card residence (nor what the advantages and disadvantages might be), but for tax residence that 183 day thing is merely a rule of thumb, not anything written into the law books. For international purposes, tax residence is where a person has their "primary centers of interest." Those include such things as where their car is registered, where they derive their income from, where their immediate family members (spouse, kids, etc.) are living and/or if there is a place to which they regularly return, where their main banking and other financial relations are located and a whole bunch of other "telling" factors.

If worse comes to worst, it can come down to what country you spent the most time in during a given calendar (or tax) year.

But if you're not doing this for tax purposes, then never mind....
Cheers,
Bev


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Bevdeforges said:


> Let me just pose one question here: What, exactly, is your goal? Because you say you don't want to establish residence.. by that do you mean* tax *residence, or residence in general (e.g. to get a residence card of some variety). Because the rules can be different for the two kinds of residence.
> 
> I don't know what Spain's rules are on residence card residence (nor what the advantages and disadvantages might be), but for tax residence that 183 day thing is merely a rule of thumb, not anything written into the law books. For international purposes, tax residence is where a person has their "primary centers of interest." Those include such things as where their car is registered, where they derive their income from, where their immediate family members (spouse, kids, etc.) are living and/or if there is a place to which they regularly return, where their main banking and other financial relations are located and a whole bunch of other "telling" factors.
> 
> ...


ooooh I hadn't thought of where the vehicle is registered...........


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> Hhhmmm, now what would I say to that?????? Answer: If you dont like Spanish bureaucracy or any other bureaucracy then dont go there. They're not going to change it just for you!


I don't recall I ever expected them to.




jojo said:


> Apart from that, I doubt anyone is interested in your reasons, but I will point out that it is YOU that is straying off topic (your complaint and you were only going to answer related questions) So the protect you, anything else posted that isnt about Acceptable Proof of Travel Across Country Borders will be deleted
> 
> Jo


Since when has it been up to you to decide whether members are allowed to make "civilised"replies to me? If people want to make a civil post, I'm perfectly fine with that, it's why the forum is here. You seem to be using my own words as an excuse, so here's an update: *I'm fine with any post that is not an interrogation or insult.*

Your rush to my rescue is commendable, but I'd much rather you remove the insults from mrypg9 in the other thread than to threaten to remove perfectly civil comments that a member might want to post for me.

Read what I just wrote and take note because it's a perfectly civilised request, as was the comment Castaway posted for me. I have nothing against any comment that is a genuine attempt to help. Two of your fellow moderators have since made a post that would fall under your deletion tactic, are you going to treat them the same way as you say you're going to treat anyone else who replies to me with a question?

*I'm fine with posts that are not interrogations or insults.*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

EX-1 said:


> I'm not some deeply philosophical soul with fantasies about becoming a hippy, I'm just way ahead of the game when it comes to *not* lumbering myself with debt and mortgages. My philoshopy is a simple one: If you live by the simple rule *not* to get drawn into things you cannot afford, you are free from the 9-5 rat race. Buy everything outright and *you* are in control, it's paid for and you own it. *Never* deviate from that philosophy because as soon as you borrow something, *they* are in control, you are on a leash, you become their bi*ch from the moment you give your signature.


Yup. I bought everything I own outright. Cars, houses. I dislike debt. Always pay off my credit cards. 
That's one good piece of advice from you.

So I'm 'well ahead of the game', as you put it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Mods, are we going to get all this next year as well as last???


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Bevdeforges said:


> Let me just pose one question here: What, exactly, is your goal? Because you say you don't want to establish residence.. by that do you mean* tax *residence, or residence in general (e.g. to get a residence card of some variety). Because the rules can be different for the two kinds of residence.
> 
> I don't know what Spain's rules are on residence card residence (nor what the advantages and disadvantages might be), but for tax residence that 183 day thing is merely a rule of thumb, not anything written into the law books. For international purposes, tax residence is where a person has their "primary centers of interest." Those include such things as where their car is registered, where they derive their income from, where their immediate family members (spouse, kids, etc.) are living and/or if there is a place to which they regularly return, where their main banking and other financial relations are located and a whole bunch of other "telling" factors.
> 
> ...


My goal is to travel for a few years, and later, settle in Ibiza.

Residency is not an issue for me because until I settle down, I'm a tourist, and will not be in the country per year long enough to make me tax resident anyway. Residency will be a piece of cake when I decide to settle and start a business in Ibiza, but until then, until I decide my travels are over, I'm a tourist.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> I don't recall I ever expected them to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There you go again, contradicting yourself lol!

This is a discussion forum, people say what they want - as long as they dont make direct insults, of course they can interrogate, thats the point of a discussion - I'm surprised that it bothers you since you dont like rules, and there you are dictating your own!

My fellow mods are fully aware of the comments made and I can assure you have read all of your posts.

As for this comment


> Anyway, thanks all (well almost all). You all think I'm crazy but that's ok, I think you lot are as well, lumbering yourselves with mortgages and all that other slavery stuff. I just hope that those that haven't signed their lives away yet, will read my post carefully and understand why I'm free to do what I'm going to do. If ever you find yourself needing a loan or a mortgage, the only reason you need it is because you can't afford to buy the item you need to borrow for. That alone should tell you to steer clear because if you can't afford the item, then you can't afford the loan either.


Are you really happy to suggest that people dont buy a property and live in a van????? er....... I personally couldnt think of anything worse than spending a night cooped up in a van - let alone live in one! That statement lets you down more than any of the others. No, I dont think anyone thinks you're crazy.

However, I will say categorically that if you keep trying to turn your threads into "how can I get out of paying anyone anything cos I dont want to" then they will be closed. You've had the answer and it wont change just because you keep asking! 

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EX-1 said:


> I don't recall I ever expected them to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it's simple

when you ask a question on a forum - any forum - you will get replies you might not like & sometimes responses which are at a bit of a tangent, yet still interesting & useful to other members, both present & future

you will also be asked questions, because without the full info you might be given the wrong advice

if there are replies which you consider to be irrelevant, or you are asked questions you don't want to answer - just don't respond to them

oh - & that's what moderators do - we decide between us - nearly 30 of us - as to whether a post is within the rules set by the forum owners

sometimes it's blatantly obvious, but sometimes we discuss it - a post which breaks the rules would be removed

that's the last word about moderation in this thread - the discussion of it is only permitted by PM (rule 5)


:focus:

does anyone have any more definitive info as to what the police regard as sufficient proof that someone doesn't live here?


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Who do I contact here, who is the official owner of this forum?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

EX-1 said:


> Who do I contact here, who is the official owner of this forum?


VerticalScope : Driven by Enthusiasts. They own several forums

Jo


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EX-1 said:


> I totally dig the hippy thing but I'm not a hippy. I'm just a person that refuses to do the 9-5 rat race, simple as that. You live once, I won't be spending mine being a 9-5 muppet.
> 
> I'm not some deeply philosophical soul with fantasies about becoming a hippy, I'm just way ahead of the game when it comes to *not* lumbering myself with debt and mortgages. My philoshopy is a simple one: If you live by the simple rule *not* to get drawn into things you cannot afford, you are free from the 9-5 rat race. Buy everything outright and *you* are in control, it's paid for and you own it. *Never* deviate from that philosophy because as soon as you borrow something, *they* are in control, you are on a leash, you become their bi*ch from the moment you give your signature.
> 
> :


Although I appreciate the Mods' stance on this, it seems rather harsh for people who do or have done the 9-5 (and well beyond that in many cases) to be called muppets and have no "right of reply". Personally, I don't find describing people as muppets to be very civil.

The OP clearly finds it hard to grasp that one can in fact set oneself up for life by playing that game for a set period of time and only then doing the opting-out thing. If I hadn't bought a house (yes, with a mortgage, but one I could easily afford and I'd paid it off by my early '40s) and worked to earn money (in interesting jobs) I wouldn't have been able to sell it and buy a much cheaper one here in Spain, with no mortgage, and never have to work another day in my life.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

jojo said:


> VerticalScope : Driven by Enthusiasts. They own several forums
> 
> Jo


Thankyou.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Although I appreciate the Mods' stance on this, it seems rather harsh for people who do or have done the 9-5 (and well beyond that in many cases) to be called muppets and have no "right of reply". Personally, I don't find describing people as muppets to be very civil.
> 
> The OP clearly finds it hard to grasp that one can in fact set oneself up for life by playing that game for a set period of time and only then doing the opting-out thing. If I hadn't bought a house (yes, with a mortgage, but one I could easily afford and I'd paid it off by my early '40s) and worked to earn money (in interesting jobs) I wouldn't have been able to sell it and buy a much cheaper one here in Spain, with no mortgage, and never have to work another day in my life.


Me too. The 9 to 5 treadmill is a after all just means to an end - the end is being able to spend your days doing exactly what you like without having to worry about things like mortgages or hopping back and forth across borders.


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## EX-1 (Jun 12, 2013)

Not everyone wants to tread that treadmill, though.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Another closed thread. Please lets break the habit

Jo


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