# EU overturns provisional ESP - UK deal on Gibraltar



## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

This seems an interesting development, perhaps showing how Spain didn't quite understand how much control it has over its borders.

Quoted from the Times (UK), which I link below (updated). 



> Brussels has ignored a provisional agreement hammered out between the British and Spanish governments last year over the future of Gibraltar. The framework deal was designed to allow the territory in effect to enter into the EU’s Schengen free-movement area, which is seen as critical for its economy.
> 
> The EU would take responsibility for policing border crossing points into Gibraltar — and avoid the politically controversial prospect of allowing Spanish border guards to decide who can and cannot enter the territory.
> 
> ...











Brexit: Spanish police will patrol border in Gibraltar, insists EU


Spanish police will patrol border in Gibraltar, EU says




www.thetimes.co.uk


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

Stuck between a rock and a hard place...

I am sorry, but Northern Ireland and Gibraltar need hard borders. It is the only way. The UK wants to protect their borders and so does the EU.


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## proud.to.be.EUROPEAN (Feb 14, 2020)

Some people are smoking their pipes too much, UK press in particularly.

This is 1st DRAFT! No one in any negotiation comes in with lowest possible demand, so that later on can raise them up!

Lets be honest, Schengen means free access to EU and in return, its perfect normal to ask same in return.
About borders, you need EU Schengen state officials to control border, as UK has proven it cant be trusted.

About police issue mentioned, it was referring to be able to make hot-pursuit and arrest across line. Sounds perfectly sensible to me. It would be funny to see UK police car racing across Spanish roads. 

However, I dont think deal can be reached on Schengen. Most likely there will be scaled down mini Custom Union deal.
As for Ireland, only outcome will be united Ireland, sooner or later.


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

The Times has its editorial line / agenda which is fairly clear in the story, and you're right it's only a draft. But wouldn't you expect that draft to pick up where agreements had already been made? Seems a bit weird to me that they would opt to reset the game and lose the progress Spain and UK have made on this thorny issue.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

tardigrade said:


> Stuck between a rock and a hard place...
> 
> I am sorry, but Northern Ireland and Gibraltar need hard borders. It is the only way. The UK wants to protect their borders and so does the EU.


There is no chance of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. This would be a major breach of the Good Friday Agreement and President Biden, the US Congress and the EU would never stand for it (nor, probably, would a majority of the UK parliament).


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

_Si_ said:


> The Times has its editorial line / agenda which is fairly clear in the story, and you're right it's only a draft. But wouldn't you expect that draft to pick up where agreements had already been made? Seems a bit weird to me that they would opt to reset the game and lose the progress Spain and UK have made on this thorny issue.


Not weird at all when you consider that Boris is trying to ride a coach and horses through the Brexit agreement he reached with Brussels over Northern Ireland. If this were a game of chess I would say that Brussels has just called "check."


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## KVP (Apr 16, 2017)

The Skipper said:


> President Biden, the US Congress and the EU would never stand for it (nor, probably, would a majority of the UK parliament).


More importantly, I doubt few of us Republic of Ireland folks would want it either


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

tardigrade said:


> Stuck between a rock and a hard place...
> 
> I am sorry, but Northern Ireland and Gibraltar need hard borders. It is the only way. The UK wants to protect their borders and so does the EU.


There is a border for Northern Ireland, it's in the Irish Sea exactly were it should be.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Here’s the view from the other side.

EU draft proposal on Gibraltar that ‘seeks to undermine UK sovereignty’ rejected by British government - 
https://english.elpais.com/internat...vereignty-rejected-by-british-government.html


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Roy C said:


> There is a border for Northern Ireland, it's in the Irish Sea exactly were it should be.


When conducting Brexit negotiations during her term as British Prime Minister, Theresa May stated: "No UK prime minister could ever agree to a border in the Irish Sea." Likewise, in August 2020, Boris Johnson said: "There will be no border down the Irish Sea - over my dead body." So what did Boris agree to in order to get his Brexit deal? That’s right, a border down the Irish Sea! He ignored all advice at the time about what the repercussions of this would be and now, of course, the chickens have come home to roost!


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

Roy C said:


> There is a border for Northern Ireland, it's in the Irish Sea exactly were it should be.


There is no customs land border between the EU and NI? I think the UK want to change the terms on that also.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

The Skipper said:


> When conducting Brexit negotiations during her term as British Prime Minister, Theresa May stated: "No UK prime minister could ever agree to a border in the Irish Sea." Likewise, in August 2020, Boris Johnson said: "There will be no border down the Irish Sea - over my dead body." So what did Boris agree to in order to get his Brexit deal? That’s right, a border down the Irish Sea! He ignored all advice at the time about what the repercussions of this would be and now, of course, the chickens have come home to roost!


True, May was a pushover, many expected that Boris would tear up the crap agreement when he had such a large majority.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Personally, i think it's time to hand Northern Ireland back to it's rightful owners. That is why i believe the border is in the Irish Sea were it should be.

A bumbling idiot in Whitehall could make things far worse on the island of Ireland.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Roy C said:


> Personally, i think it's time to hand Northern Ireland back to it's rightful owners. That is why i believe the border is in the Irish Sea were it should be.
> 
> A bumbling idiot in Whitehall could make things far worse on the island of Ireland.


I think that were another referendum to be held then they might have tipped the balance.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Roy C said:


> Personally, i think it's time to hand Northern Ireland back to it's rightful owners. That is why i believe the border is in the Irish Sea were it should be.
> 
> A bumbling idiot in Whitehall could make things far worse on the island of Ireland.


I agree in principle but would the Dublin government want it? Northern Ireland has a 10 billion a year fiscal deficit and I am not sure that Irish taxpayers would be happy to pick up that tab!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Skipper said:


> I agree in principle but would the Dublin government want it? Northern Ireland has a 10 billion a year fiscal deficit and I am not sure that Irish taxpayers would be happy to pick up that tab!


But it would get funding from the EU again, a not inconsiderable amount.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

The Skipper said:


> I agree in principle but would the Dublin government want it? Northern Ireland has a 10 billion a year fiscal deficit and I am not sure that Irish taxpayers would be happy to pick up that tab!



Whitehall created the problem with the division in the first place and creating a false majority in the 6 counties, they would have a moral responsibility to chip in. I feel a united Ireland would be supported in the Republic.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> But it would get funding from the EU again, a not inconsiderable amount.


True, like Ireland and Spain EU countries do benefit from the economic alliance.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

The Skipper said:


> There is no chance of a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. This would be a major breach of the Good Friday Agreement and President Biden, the US Congress and the EU would never stand for it (nor, probably, would a majority of the UK parliament).


Out of interest, in what way would a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic be a major breach of the GFA?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

During the Troubles, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic was heavily fortified and was subject to military check points because of the activities of republican paramilitaries on both sides of the border. GFA put an end to security checks at the border so that people and goods could move unhindered across two parts of Ireland. Brexit hard border would reintroduce border checks for goods and people because it becomes EU external border. So they had to devise a system - Northern Ireland Protocol - that would keep Northern Ireland within EU single market for goods, with the border down the Irish Sea, plus continuation of Common Travel Area so that people could move unhindered.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

> During the Troubles, the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic was heavily fortified and was subject to military check points because of the activities of republican paramilitaries on both sides of the border. GFA put an end to security checks at the border so that people and goods could move unhindered across two parts of Ireland. Brexit hard border would reintroduce border checks for goods and people because it becomes EU external border. So they had to devise a system - Northern Ireland Protocol - that would keep Northern Ireland within EU single market for goods, with the border down the Irish Sea, plus continuation of Common Travel Area so that people could move unhindered.


So it's mainly a question of security checks rather than customs checks? They don't want people there (i.e. on the border) wearing uniforms and carrying guns?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Any kind of physical check is an anathema as it reminds them of the bad old days of paramilitaries and troops on the street. So it's a perception rather than the details.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Chopera said:


> Out of interest, in what way would a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic be a major breach of the GFA?


See below ... Joppa sums it up perfectly.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Any kind of physical check is an anathema as it reminds them of the bad old days of paramilitaries and troops on the street. So it's a perception rather than the details.


Surely deciding on whether the GFA has been broken (or not) is about details rather than perception? To me it seems if they've managed to introduce custom checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland without breaking the GFA then they could do the same on the island of Ireland without breaking the GFA. Or, put it another way, if placing a customs border on the island of Ireland breaks the GFA then the Northern Ireland Protocol also breaks the GFA.


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

The GFA was only possible because of the EU putting everyone on the same page for trade (undermining smuggling) and migration. That just left the security issues unique to NI. Ignoring the politics, there's the fact that the actual border wiggles through people's land, so farmers would need permits to move cattle from one end of a field to another. That's all sorts of hassle when you have different food standards between EU and UK.

On 'breaking' the GFA, this is useful: Does Belfast/Good Friday Agreement forbid cross-border barriers?

I've also just remembered some Brexiteers demanding a border with Eire to prevent migrants sneaking into Britain. I imagine some of those are still influential and so will undermine everything as usual.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

GFA is just a red herring!


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## KVP (Apr 16, 2017)

Isobella said:


> GFA is just a red herring!


Not if you live in Ireland, its taken very seriously here by some. There are still issues here as some cling to old ideals and hurts. 

Re-establishment of a hard border would not be a good thing. Some groups would use it as an excuse to start acting stupid again. Also, as was said by _SI_ it would be a small nightmare to enforce standards due to land placement and all the legalities that would go with that.


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