# Is Spain still the place to go?



## Ji Green (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi all, 

Like most of you I am looking to move on and although I will miss the UK I want a better life for my family, but after reading a book (SNIP) i'm not sure that Spain is the answer. I am trying to learn the language but the other, not so enthusiastic, family members seem to be just getting on with UK living and they are not to bothered either way where as I am reading everything I can on moving abroard. Other choices are Canada & Australia, has anyone else read this book and if so is it really like this as an ex-pat?

I had the book given to me by a well intentioned relative and they got it from (SNIP) and lastly are Spainish property prices in freefall?


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

Hi Ji, 

We were looking at moving from the UK to either Spain or Australia a few years ago but after reading a book about trying to get business done in Spain we went for Australia. 

Australia is harder to get into than Spain, and is much further away. I know that last bit is obvious but it makes a real difference to how often you see family and friends in the UK in person (I know I can see them with Skype ). Return flights to the UK from Oz are also very expensive when you are paying for them in Aussie dollars. 

Just thought I'd point those things out as you make your decision. 

Saying that we love it over here! 

Regards,
Karen


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## MERLINO (Nov 9, 2008)

Hi, 
would be able to give an informed reply if more details of this book were available;
having spent some years in Spain.

IB No. or publisher etc


Phil


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Ji Green said:


> has anyone else read this book and if so is it really like this as an ex-pat? I had the book given to me by a well intentioned relative and they got it from(SNIP)and lastly are Spainish property prices in freefall?


I dont know you book - but the only way to do business here IS THE SPANISH WAY. To do this you NEED to speak Spanish - and need to be good at networking. 

You can live here very well IF you have income. But lose that "key" and life gets harsh very fast indeed.

From what I see here in the middle - property is NOT in freefall. VERY STABLE. I don't think there'll be much more built NEW for a while - but what there is available will either sell eventually OR convert to rental.

I've 2 mates in the UK off to Canada as I write. Too cold for me - but would be fine otherwise (esp if you like the outdoors and hunting)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Spain is lovely, but it is NOT the easy option and quite frankly, apart from the weather (which aint all that in the winter!) and the relaxed lifestyle (which has its pros and cons) its got its problems just as the UK. There are lots of rules and regs, lots of red tape, prices arent that much cheaper and YES house prices are falling here. Sadly. Spain hasnt escaped the global recession, so most of whats going on in the UK at the mo is happening here too

All that said, if you plan carefully and dont burn your bridges in the UK, it is a much nicer way of life, everywhere is lovely when the sun shines, but you need money, security and a workable plan. 

Maybe a visit is in order!??

Jo


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

We are pretty gloomy aren't we

But it has to be said I dont agree with everything. For one thing we should qualify that things aint that cheaper IF you are earning over here because wages are a lot less than the UK

Around here prices from my experience cost of living is still abt 30% cheaper then the UK, although I realise after a recent trip to the South (Sevilla, Cadiz, Cordoba) that cost of living is higher down there

You only have to look at the news in the UK abt weather. Today here its sunny cloudless, and about 17 degrees at the moment, and on last year I would expect this during the day to be the norm up through Nov & Dec. January last year was nice as well, but late Jan and Feb went downhill. Remembering back to the UK when we used to masked in grey cloud from October through to March sometimes, the weather is still a + factor here

So if you are retired its a good bet


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

It's bloody great here!

This was taken today....don't you wish you were here?










And before anybody starts the legality speech....this one only got here a week ago!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh God not bike pictures again 

Looks like the Sahara .... where were you?


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Oh God not bike pictures again
> 
> Looks like the Sahara .... where were you?


Nearest thing to it Jon......


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

It depends where you go about freefall prices, On many of the costas prices are most definitely in freefall. In Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla less so 

As for paperwork, the ones that ***** are the ones who cannot be bothered to learn how to get it done properly. It is NOT a big job and having run businesses in Spain and the UK I can guarantee that with a good LOCAL gestor and solicitor you have NOTHING to worry about re paperwork.

The big issue here is work - or lack of it. If you need to work, you are 99% guaranteed that you will have to be self-employed or working for a pittance UNLESS YOU SPEAK FLUENT SPANISH. Even then, Spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe and it's going to get NO better in the mext 12 months. So if you have money, this could be a great option!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes, Xtreme. Plenty of sunbathers out today. Chilly in the shade but in the sun, it was magnificent. So much so that I got a bit of sunburn watching the Blackburn game that was being played in TORRENTIAL rain back in Lancashire. 

Life is sweet.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> Yes, Xtreme. Plenty of sunbathers out today. Chilly in the shade but in the sun, it was magnificent. So much so that I got a bit of sunburn watching the Blackburn game that was being played in TORRENTIAL rain back in Lancashire.
> 
> Life is sweet.


Bloody cold where I was though Steve......I can do without the shrinkage I can tell you!


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

What book did you say it was you were reading and why ?


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## Ji Green (Nov 9, 2008)

I have read almost every book, mag and article on Spain, knowledge is king, and this book is like a diary of a families experience. I found it an easy read, 2hrs, and I almost imagined myself there with corruption, bickerings amongst ex pats, police problems, and what I thought was good advice to rent a property for at least 3 months before I buy to make sure of the area as much as the country, tried to put book title in but as I am new I think the moderator deleted it and replaced it with a snip but spanish dream advice dot com may get through, I am set on Spain and want to move now and, as it is a buyers market now,this may be the best time, as a builder I am sure I could get by even if, as the book eplains ,I may have to become an apprentice for a while to learn the tricks of the environment heat ect. My wife seems to have picked out all of the negative things but only an experienced ex pat will know if it is correct


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Ji Green said:


> I have read almost every book, mag and article on Spain, knowledge is king, and this book is like a diary of a families experience. I found it an easy read, 2hrs, and I almost imagined myself there with corruption, bickerings amongst ex pats, police problems, and what I thought was good advice to rent a property for at least 3 months before I buy to make sure of the area as much as the country, tried to put book title in but as I am new I think the moderator deleted it and replaced it with a snip but spanish dream advice dot com may get through, I am set on Spain and want to move now and, as it is a buyers market now,this may be the best time, as a builder I am sure I could get by even if, as the book eplains ,I may have to become an apprentice for a while to learn the tricks of the environment heat ect. My wife seems to have picked out all of the negative things but only an experienced ex pat will know if it is correct


I am getting very confused now - if you have read "almost every book" etc etc, why would you base your decision on the experience of one family who for all we know might be xenophobic city-dwellers, afraid of the heat and who bought from a rogue agent, with a dodgy developer in the middle of nowhere. The ONLY way you are going to know whether it is for you is to come and see for yourself. Rent for 6 months or even 2/3 places at 4/6 months then YOU will be able to see whether it is for YOU. 

Here's an answer I often give, "Close your eyes and think of living in two English towns you have never been to of a similar population both inland and both with universities and no premierhsip teams. Which one would be best for you?" Why should for example Wolverhampton be better of worse for you than Coventry? The reality is you will not know until you have been and made YOUR decision. That will be DIFFERENT to mine which will no doubt be different to, say, Pasanada. Things that are important to me - wifi, La Liga football nearby, good public transport, access to Scandinavian communities, good public/private health - may not be important to you. For you the priorities might be to be near a marina, close to an airport, good golf clubs and quality schools. Don't forget the decision is also made on people. I make no attempt to hide it. I prefer the average Spaniard to the average expat. I will always choose a Spanish bar/restaurant over an expat one if I have the choice. I will read Sur rather than Sur in English and shop in Mercadona and not Spainsburys. YOU on the other hand may feel happier among expats. If you by chance get in with the "wrong crowd" your opinion of, say, Estepona could be completely different to what it would have been if you lived on a different urb, went to a different church and your husband/wife had not had an affair with the next-door neighbour. YOUR LIFE, YOUR CHOICE 

Os deseo mucha suerte


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## Ji Green (Nov 9, 2008)

I guess the book is right and IS based on facts...make sure you don't fall off of that high horse. Asta luego amigo y gracias


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Ji Green said:


> I almost imagined myself there with corruption, bickerings amongst ex pats, police problems, and what I thought was good advice to rent a property for at least 3 months before I buy to make sure of the area as much as the country, ........., as a builder I am sure I could get by


Mmm - I wonder about "police problems" . I've never had ANY AT ALL.

Generally problems are more due to folk expect things to be like "back home" & they're not. I've lived in many countries - the KEY is to assume you cannot, and ask often to be pleasantly surprised. Not assume you can, spend money, then have bad news. This is especially true if it involves building here - you need a permit for just about EVERYTHING - even inside and unseen. 

Renting first - 100%. 

As for moving - I've only once moved WITHOUT having a job/income lined up. It was an uphill struggle to find work as a foreigner - and at the time I had a VERY in-demand skill set. If it's NOT in demand - locals will always find out before and get in before unless you have a VERY good network of contacts.

Building - RIGHT NOW may not be a good time. There are a HUGE number of unsold, never occupied, properties in Spain (1 million in Madrid province). 

In the south unemployment is up near 20% and something like 70% of this is folk from the building trade (from Spanish TV news)

I don't know what the rates are down there - but here 10€/hour is a normal labour charge. As Self employed you'll be paying SS dues of 240€/month whether you're earning or not. Do the maths.

I agree with Steve too on the Spanish/ex-pat bar/enviroment preference. I believe you'll get more out of Spain by coming with the firm intention of integrating and actually going where there are few ex-pats. Maybe into the wilds of Extremadura etc. ime being foreign will actually count LESS against you then . Actually can work in your favour. 

But as already stated - YOUR LIFE, YOUR CHOICE


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Chris, actually it was my strapline" YOUR LIFE, YOUR CHOICE" which is why I suppose I got the sarcasm back.

As I said to somebody the other day - I do not care whether x or y comes to Spain or not. It will not change my life/my lifestyle either way. However, what does irritate me is when people like Chris, Pasanada y los demás go to the trouble of responding and giving an honest opinion - nothing else, no hidden agenda - based n years of life here and you get those snide comments. 

Let's be more blunt and to take up Chris' point: 

Some of the bars on the "strip" in Torrevieja last week set winter rates - 4 euros per hour. So IF YOU ARE LEGAL you will earn ca 4 euros x4,3 weeks x 37,5 hours = less than 650 euros per month. Of that you should pay your 240 euros leaving you with less than 100 euros per week for rent, food, transport. DO THE MATHS! Obviously, some make reasonable tips but even so... 

Is it any wonder why (a) so many expats return and (b) so many are illegal? 

Sun's out already today - it's going to be another great week. Enjoy!!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Extrema dura - extremely hard! Yes, if you can make it there you can make it anywhere!! 

Police problems? I missed that one, sorry. What would I know? I was only the police liaison officer for the Costa Blanca Neighbourhood Watch and had weekly contact with the local police. Biggest problem was that their guy was a Barcelona fan - in those days Real Madrid were re-building and Barcelona were not the spent force they are now! Monday's were often unpleasant! Also he smoked like a chimney - 100% guaranteed to upset me!!

Can you please elaborate, OP, on what these were claimed to be?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Ji Green said:


> I am set on Spain and want to move now and, as it is a buyers market now,this may be the best time, as a builder I am sure I could get by even if, as the book eplains ,I may have to become an apprentice for a while to learn



First of all if you buy here now, you'll probably wish you'd waited as prices are still falling in the most part. Nice villas seem to be holding their prices, but appartments etc seem to be in free fall. The general opinion from people who are selling these nice villas is that they will wait and hold out for as much as they can get and arent prepared to drop their asking prices anymore. 

As for building work, does your book mention the collapse of the contruction industry over here? There are 1000s of builders, both Spanish, British and eastern Europeans becoming out of work pool cleaners as well as out of work builders, cos theres nowt here. Very few properties are being built, very few people want repairs or maintenance and very few would use a british builder anyway.

I agree knowledge is king, but to gain knowledge you not only need to read up but you need experience, so come over and have a look and chat to people in bars etc -see what its really like and what you think - you'll then gain the real knowledge and can make an informed decision

Jo x


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

We have picked our spot after very careful consideration, are looking to buy there, won't make the move immediately but would have no fears if circumstances permitted, and most importantly we will not be looking for work.

It may appear to folk who are not currently looking to buy that property prices are holding up, not so, it's just the asking prices that are holding up. 'Distressed' sales sites are springing up like dandelions as people who borrowed far more than they could handle slip nearer and nearer into bank reposession. If someone is very low geared borrowing wise or without a mortgage and doesn't need to sell they are not likely to give their property away. Estate agents offices are closing by the hundreds per day as new builds stand unsold and uncompleted.

It's simple for us, better weather, better life style, lower cost of living, no emplyment concerns, no debt and the choice of dividing our time between Spain and the UK or making the move permanent. However if we had a young family, required a mortgage and needed to work Spain is the last place that we would consider in the current financial climate. Countries such as New Zealand, Australia and Canada are suffering skills shortages, and if you fit the bill you will get sufficient points to apply for a work visa AND GET A REAL JOB.

Our son is 30 next and has travelled extensively, if we stayed in the UK just for him we would most likely find ourselves on our own in the cold with him being in New Zealand. Our long standing friends are very scattered and we generally keep in contact by phone, we would probably see far more of them if we lived in Spain. 

Whatever your decision, the best of luck.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> There are 1000s of builders, both Spanish, British and eastern Europeans becoming out of work pool cleaners as well as out of work builders,
> Jo x


As if to anticipate Jo's point - The news yesterday was pointing out that many Romanians are leaving Spain now to return home. And they will take work that no Brit or Spaniard will consider (in general).


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Our long standing friends are very scattered and we generally keep in contact by phone, we would probably see far more of them if we lived in Spain.


Spot on ... we see more of our friends now ...... you tend to make a point of going to see them rather than putting it off till next month, and of course they will be over to see you too!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Spot on ... we see more of our friends now ...... you tend to make a point of going to see them rather than putting it off till next month, and of course they will be over to see you too!



De acuerdo


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> As if to anticipate Jo's point - The news yesterday was pointing out that many Romanians are leaving Spain now to return home. And they will take work that no Brit or Spaniard will consider (in general).


Now,, we just need to get rid of the Brits and Spain will be a great place to live!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

SteveHall said:


> Now,, we just need to get rid of the Brits and Spain will be a great place to live!



Its ironic really isn't it!


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## scharlack (Nov 21, 2008)

I sincerely hope Spain is one of the good places to go!


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## raininspain2 (Jan 5, 2009)

*average cost of living for a retiree in Spain*



SteveHall said:


> It depends where you go about freefall prices, On many of the costas prices are most definitely in freefall. In Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Sevilla less so
> 
> As for paperwork, the ones that ***** are the ones who cannot be bothered to learn how to get it done properly. It is NOT a big job and having run businesses in Spain and the UK I can guarantee that with a good LOCAL gestor and solicitor you have NOTHING to worry about re paperwork.
> 
> The big issue here is work - or lack of it. If you need to work, you are 99% guaranteed that you will have to be self-employed or working for a pittance UNLESS YOU SPEAK FLUENT SPANISH. Even then, Spain has one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe and it's going to get NO better in the mext 12 months. So if you have money, this could be a great option!



Hi, I'm new in the forum. Do you know the ballpark figure for living expenses, including food and lodging (rental) for a single person (retired). I mean your average normal expense excluding going out, just food, everyday miscellaneous and long term rental of a 2-bedroom apt. and near to public transportation. thanks.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Looking through this thread I noticed a comment about Romanians leaving Spain and returning home. Same is true in GB. According to one broadsheet as many as 50% of Poles, Romanians etc have left GB in the last year. I'm stuck in GB now but in spite of the woes of Spain I still plan to move there no later than the end of 2010. We are a bit more fortunate in our circumstances since we have family who have lived in the same region we wish to move to for 6 years so we know the area and the problems pretty well - not as well as first hand experience I know, but it's a start. Oh, and we plan to integrate into the Spanish way of life rather than long for the British way of doing things. My view has always been if you don't plan on integrating, stay put.

As for the cost of living request in the previous post, it will depend hugely on where you are planning to move to etc.


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## mrees007 (Jan 8, 2009)

Spains economy is worse than the UK's... and from what people who live there have said the market is dry.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

raininspain2 said:


> Hi, I'm new in the forum. Do you know the ballpark figure for living expenses, including food and lodging (rental) for a single person (retired). I mean your average normal expense excluding going out, just food, everyday miscellaneous and long term rental of a 2-bedroom apt. and near to public transportation. thanks.


In that situation and in my area, I wouldnt wanna do it unless I had a minimum of £1000/1000 euros a month available. But it depends on how extravegant you are, how you wanna live etc

Jo


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> In that situation and in my area, I wouldnt wanna do it unless I had a minimum of £1000/1000 euros a month available. But it depends on how extravegant you are, how you wanna live etc
> 
> Jo


I think it also depends on where you live, as its clear cost of living can be higher in some areas of CDS


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

RainInSpain2 - see Cost of Living sticky for a lot of useful info 

Depends what you mean by survive - I "could" survive I guess on 1,500 euros per month 

Rent - SS - basic food - water would take you to almost 1000 euros so with phones/ADSL/replacement clothes&shoes/toileteries you are up to almost 1200 

If you smoke, drink, drive a car, eat out you can carry on upwards 

Spain is NOT the 100 peseta a day country it once was!!


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## raininspain2 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Is Euro 600 per month apt. rental for real or is that a sham?*

Thanks for your prompt reply. So Euro 2000 would be good enough to live on for a single person and can I get a decent 2 br apt in town for 600? I'm sometimes amazed at the very low prices even in euros (I'm American) and it's even furnished! But I think I have to inspect it physically first and make sure everything's legit before I plunk down any money, right? I like to cook, so eating a good meal should not be a problem for me. I can't afford my apt. in Washington, DC anymore after I retire, so am looking outside the country. Please give me your best encouragement .



SteveHall said:


> RainInSpain2 - see Cost of Living sticky for a lot of useful info
> 
> Depends what you mean by survive - I "could" survive I guess on 1,500 euros per month
> 
> ...


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

As a single person in Spain on 2000 euros I am sure you could be "comfortable". Let's put it like this it is far more than most expats live on! Any excess please send to thisisspain c/o ExpatForum, www, In the Ether.


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## raininspain2 (Jan 5, 2009)

*So Euro 600 per month in Spain for a furnished apt. can be found?*



SteveHall said:


> As a single person in Spain on 2000 euros I am sure you could be "comfortable". Let's put it like this it is far more than most expats live on! Any excess please send to thisisspain c/o ExpatForum, www, In the Ether.


Thanks, Steve, for your prompt reply. I feel encouraged and empowered . I don't plan to work or work occasionally online (editing work) and don't plan to buy property (too much hassle). This may not be up your alley, but who (compassionate civilian, agency or professional advisor) do I consult regarding visa requirements for a US citizen wishing to live maybe 3 months at a time in various countries, not all Schengen countries. (I know about the 3-month within a continuous 6-month period requirement for Schengen countries.) 

I guess my main question is: can a US citizen be doing that kind of travel without returning to the US first before visiting another country and staying there within the maximum period allowable for a tourist each time ? Since I don't know 6 months in advance where I'd go next, I don't know what to do about that. Anyone out there dear forum readers who's done this kind of thing?

Also, one small question: are there self-storage companies in Spain that I can use to hold surplus personal effects while I travel? Anyone with a website link?

I'm so happy I found this forum. Many thanks!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

1) I am not an expert on US law but I sure that if you approach the US Embassy wherever you currently are they will tell you

2) Yes, there is self storage everywhere. Google town "x" + self storage and I am sure you will get lots of urls (self storgae is now a "Spanish" word! 

or Google town "x" + Alquiler de almacenes, minialmacenes


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