# Passport Renewal Advice!



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Our passports expire next month, but as we've never left the country since we arrived here in 2005 (and never will), do we still need to renew them?

We have residencia and Spanish driving licences with photo ID.....so I can't see any particular reason for us needing a current passport in the foreseeable future.

Any legal directive that is has to be current at all times?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I am not sure about the law (I might try to look later) but I do remember once needing to make a denuncia to the Guardia Civil when I didn't have my passport with me.

The GC told me that it was OK to use my driving licence as ID, but only to the GC, he said that Policia Nacional or Municipal probably would not accept it and that I would need my passport if I had to identofy myself to them.

This stands to reason as your inscription in the register of foreigners is made against your national ID (in our case our UK passport) so if your passport is out of date, so too is your residencia (in theory).

In practice I doubt you would have a problem except if you wanted to do something formal where the authority refused to accept the driving license as ID.

Interestingly, I once stood my ground and complained in Carrefour because the cashier would not let me use my bank card using the licence as ID. She wanted my passport, which I didn't have with me. The manager came, and I told her that the GC accept the driving licence as ID, so Carrefour should do too.
She politely told me that Carrefour was a private business that could set its own rules and that if I didn't like them I was free to shop somewhere else.... She had a point.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

XTreme said:


> Our passports expire next month, but as we've never left the country since we arrived here in 2005 (and never will), do we still need to renew them?
> 
> We have residencia and Spanish driving licences with photo ID.....so I can't see any particular reason for us needing a current passport in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Any legal directive that is has to be current at all times?


[Remember, we don't have "residencia" - we are simply on a list of foreigners - completely different.]


I also argued this one some time ago.

If I'm not going to travel, then why do I need a passport (whose sole purpose, or so I thought, was for travelling)?

I was told that the passport was the only legal document that Brits had for proving ones identity - nothing else will do (legally).

OK, so why then are we having to pay so much for our 'proof of identity' (passport)? Isn't this against EU regulations/law ?


----------



## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola

I helped a friend to renew her Padron last week; she had to show her passport as identity and nothing else will officially suffice. 

Your passport is the only means of identifying you officially - and in theory you should carry it with you at all times in Spain - in practice you can usually get away with driving licence etc. BUT usually get away with it is the phrase that may come back to haunt you. 

Davexf


----------



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Thanks for the replies everybody! We're going to renew anyway.....just to be sure.

But I just can't help feeling that we're being royally screwed to get something which in essence should be our birthright as British citizens.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

XTreme said:


> Our passports expire next month, but as we've never left the country since we arrived here in 2005 (and never will), do we still need to renew them?
> 
> We have residencia and Spanish driving licences with photo ID.....so I can't see any particular reason for us needing a current passport in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Any legal directive that is has to be current at all times?


Can you honestly say you won't go on holiday in another country, then?
What about having to go back to the UK for some reason, emergency, family celebrations etc.
I can't see how you can be so sure you will never leave Spain.
As others have said your passport is the only valid proof of ID some will accept, so it is in your interest. Not everyone drives,either.
I have been asked to produce my passport on many occasions.
It is your interest to renew it.


----------



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Can you honestly say you won't go on holiday in another country, then?
> 
> What about having to go back to the UK for some reason, emergency, family celebrations etc.
> 
> I can't see how you can be so sure you will never leave Spain


Yes....and Yes! 

I work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week......I have no time for holidays. If I was ever fortunate enough to have a break from that (highly unlikely) then I'd just tour Spain on a motorcycle.

In addition, we have no living family or any ties in the UK whatsoever.

I spent 51 years there.....why on earth would I want to see all that again? I did my time.....I paid my dues......that's been a closed book for 10 years and always will be.

So as you see.....it's something I would never use for the purposes of travelling.

As for identification purposes then it seems it may be required.....so we've just been to get photos now!


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Surely you won't always work 16 hours a way, 7 days a week?
Whats the point of being in Spain.? 
You could be anywhere


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Our Spanish lawyer told us a while ago that in Spain it is considered to be a criminal offence not to have a current passport. I have no idea if this is true or not but I was stopped by the GC recently and asked to provide my passport. I politely told them that it was in UK for renewal and that seemed to satisfy them.


----------



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Surely you won't always work 16 hours a way, 7 days a week?
> Whats the point of being in Spain.?
> You could be anywhere


Without going into business or personal details.....I probably will be working forever. But actually I don't have a problem with that.

I enjoy what I do and I'm the type of person who always needs a challenge. It's certainly preferable to vegetating with no purpose in life......so I'm fine with it.

What's the point of being in Spain? Strange as it may seem it is actually more pleasant than living in rundown industrial South Wales. The choice is work those hours in South Wales.....or work them here? It's a no-brainer really.

Interesting point about the passport that I forgot to mention: The passport I'm renewing now, which I got at 51, was the *first* passport I've ever had. So that may give you an indication as to my international travelling habits.

I'm a homeboy.....and where I live now is home.


----------



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

thrax said:


> Our Spanish lawyer told us a while ago that in Spain it is considered to be a criminal offence not to have a current passport. I have no idea if this is true or not but I was stopped by the GC recently and asked to provide my passport. I politely told them that it was in UK for renewal and that seemed to satisfy them.


They should have banged you up in a cell with Bubba Jerry!


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I sympathize with you, I have just renewed mine, here identification is required for inter island travel, ferry or plane, passport, I.D. card, or Spanish driving licence, are the only means acceptable. 

Shame we lost the photo I.D. residents card.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Hepa said:


> I sympathize with you, I have just renewed mine, here identification is required for inter island travel, ferry or plane, passport, I.D. card, or Spanish driving licence, are the only means acceptable.
> 
> Shame we lost the photo I.D. residents card.


All because of interference from some well meaning ex pat asscn who thought they were doing us a favour


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

A new passport results in a new passport number. Has anyone had problems as a result of this with documentation that includes the old number?


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> A new passport results in a new passport number. Has anyone had problems as a result of this with documentation that includes the old number?


Yep - you have to remember to notify everyone when it changes.


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Especially your bank!!


----------



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Thanks for that advice guys! Just doing renewals now!

Bloody passport photo is dismal.....seems I now look like some sort of geriatric terrorist!


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

thrax said:


> Especially your bank!!


Thinking further on this, the bank is the only organisation you are best to inform. When you initially obtain an NIE your passport is used as identification. The NIE number is for life and all that is required by most organisations. The fact that you have a new passport and number is probably of no relevance so long as you have a current passport if identification is needed.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

XTreme said:


> Our passports expire next month, but as we've never left the country since we arrived here in 2005 (and never will), do we still need to renew them?
> 
> We have residencia and Spanish driving licences with photo ID.....so I can't see any particular reason for us needing a current passport in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Any legal directive that is has to be current at all times?


Here you go (just to give an answer to the specific question about legal directive):

The law governing, amongst other things, the documents that a foreigner must have whils in Spain is the "Ley Organica 4/2000" dated 11th January.

Article 4 of this law was revised by "Ley Organica 2/2009" dated 11th December.

Article 4.1 states:

"Los extranjeros que se encuentren en territorio español tienen el derecho y el deber de conservar la documentación que acredite su identidad, expedida por las autoridades competentes del país de origen o de procedencia, así como la que acredite su situación en España."

Which translates as "Foreigners who are in Spanish territories have the right and obligation to maintain documentation, issued by the competent authorities of their country of origin, which proves their identity and which demonstrates their situation in Spain".

I also discovered that there is a EU directive 2004/38/EC, that states that host countries can apply the same rules to EU nationals with regards to obligations to identify themsalves on demand to any EU citizen within their territory.

This last reference didn't come from a "formal" legal resource, just a "blog" type page dated 2010 so it may not be entirely up to date. But it certainly suggests that you would lose any challenge in EC courts if you tried to argue that you don't need to carry a valid UK passport with you at all times whilst in Spain.

Please note that this is the best legal interpretation I can find, however I for one have not ever carried my passprot with me whilst in Spain, and as per my comment earlier in this thread, the Guardia Civil at least, do accept a Spanish drviving licence, but it is clear that the driving licence does not fulfil the requirements of Article 4 of L.O. 4/2000 as it is not issued by the authorities of the country of origin. Neither would a UK photo licence, as this does not demonstrate the (legal) situation of the individual in Spain


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

> as this does not demonstrate the (legal) situation of the individual in Spain


what does that mean in regard to a passport? What does "demonstrate the legal situation" mean?


Do we (from UK) not have anything else to prove who we are - does our birth certificate not count (I guess not as there's no photo)?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> what does that mean in regard to a passport? What does "demonstrate the legal situation" mean?
> 
> 
> Do we (from UK) not have anything else to prove who we are - does our birth certificate not count (I guess not as there's no photo)?


A UK passport demonstrates your status as an EU citizen, therefore determining which part of the applicable law applies to you. (i.e. that you do not need a Visa).

You are totally correct when you say that we from the UK have no other document, so we are left with a very simply choice as there is only one way to comply with the law.

Birth certificates would not count as they are not methods of proving your nationality (plus the fact that they cannot be used to prove identity). My children both have Spanish birth Certs, but they are not Spanish citizens.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

*E*



Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> Thinking further on this, the bank is the only organisation you are best to inform. When you initially obtain an NIE your passport is used as identification. The NIE number is for life and all that is required by most organisations. The fact that you have a new passport and number is probably of no relevance so long as you have a current passport if identification is needed.


You do need to update your padron with your new passport details, and some use their passport number for utility contracts.
Laminated copies are not accepted as ID
However I never carried my passport with me unless for a specific purpose.
Too much hassle and expense if lost, stolen or damaged!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

XTreme said:


> Bloody passport photo is dismal.....seems I now look like some sort of geriatric terrorist!


I hope they don't mistake me for you, then.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

extranjero said:


> You do need to update your padron with your new passport details, and some use their passport number for utility contracts.
> Laminated copies are not accepted as ID
> However I never carried my passport with me unless for a specific purpose.
> Too much hassle and expense if lost, stolen or damaged!


We didn't use our passport to get our padron - just our "residencia".


----------



## Mushu7 (Jul 17, 2015)

This having to carry your passport around with you all the time worries me a bit. Is this really really really something you have to do, or is a photocopy or other form of ID (in a card shape that can fit in your purse/wallet) not ok?

The thought of having to carry passports everywhere sounds like a nightmare.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Mushu7 said:


> This having to carry your passport around with you all the time worries me a bit. Is this really really really something you have to do, or is a photocopy or other form of ID (in a card shape that can fit in your purse/wallet) not ok?
> 
> The thought of having to carry passports everywhere sounds like a nightmare.


Firstly, I am not an authoritative voice on immigration issues in Spain, nor am I an expert on Spanish law. Just a regular guy that happens to be familiar with reading Spanish legal jargon.

BUT according to the up to date legal resources, that I use, the law is clear and is as I described previously.

So, the answer to your question "is this really really something you have to do"? is the same as if when driving you pass a 50kph speed limit and ask yourself the same question.

The law says yes. But every day, most of us break the law in some way or another. Ignorance is not a defence. When I break the law (knowingly) I will accept the consequence if I get caught. If I get caught breaking a law I didn't know existed I will curse my own ignorance.

The decision is yours and your only.

Hopefully a lawyer will come along later and tell me that my reading of one law can be challenged with a contradicyory one, or that a recent case has provided some "case law" judgement that suggests that the courts are not upholding the law. But don't count on it. 

With regards to the photo copy, the Spanish cannot use a photocopy of the DNI to identify themselves so no, we cannot (legally) use a copy of our passport in order to comply with the law.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> With regards to the photo copy, the Spanish cannot use a photocopy of the DNI to identify themselves so no, we cannot (legally) use a copy of our passport in order to comply with the law.


... but one can if that copy has been notorised (or apostled) surely?


Most (every?) other EU countries have the same requirement. The difference is that they provide their citizens with ID cards. The UK is unique in that we don't have ID cards so have to use a passport as we have nothing else suitable.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Overandout said:
> 
> 
> > With regards to the photo copy, the Spanish cannot use a photocopy of the DNI to identify themselves so no, we cannot (legally) use a copy of our passport in order to comply with the law.
> ...



Well, the legal blog page I mentioned earlier does specifically say that even notarised copies are not legal proof of ID, but they gave no substantiation or reasoning for that statement so I chose not to repeat it... I fear that finding out the real situation of this aspect may require further investigation.....


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

This looks quite interesting, but its too long for me to read now... its already 11.00 pm where I am....
http://www.notariosyregistradores.com/doctrina/ARTICULOS/permisodeconducir.htm


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Mushu7 said:


> This having to carry your passport around with you all the time worries me a bit. Is this really really really something you have to do, or is a photocopy or other form of ID (in a card shape that can fit in your purse/wallet) not ok?
> 
> The thought of having to carry passports everywhere sounds like a nightmare.


I went to make a denuncia at the police station once and only had with me a photocopy of my passport which had been reduced to tarjeta size and laminated. I got nothing worse than a stern telling off (but he really meant it), another time someone might not be so lucky. I've always carried mine since then. 

If you have a copy notarised I believe they are acceptable.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> We didn't use our passport to get our padron - just our "residencia".


But the padron does need to update ypur passport details
We had a letter asking us to go to the townhall to update the padron


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

extranjero said:


> But the padron does need to update ypur passport details
> We had a letter asking us to go to the townhall to update the padron


Yes, so did we. I will need a new passport in 2017, and although it will be a pain I fully intend to visit the bank, the Ayuntamiento, the Extranjeria to change the passport number on my resident certificate details (in case of any future problem if I am ever asked to produce my passport by the police), the health centre and the utility companies. I think it's better just to get it all done rather than risk a problem cropping up some time in the future.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, so did we. I will need a new passport in 2017, and although it will be a pain I fully intend to visit the bank, the Ayuntamiento, the Extranjeria to change the passport number on my resident certificate details (in case of any future problem if I am ever asked to produce my passport by the police), the health centre and the utility companies. I think it's better just to get it all done rather than risk a problem cropping up some time in the future.


It's rather like making sure you are wearing clean underwear in case you have an accident.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

You get your old Passport back so I will work on the principle of keeping my dirty underwear in a safe place and not telling anyone I have clean underwear on! If required I can demonstrate an underwear trail if called upon to do so.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> You get your old Passport back so I will work on the principle of keeping my dirty underwear in a safe place and not telling anyone I have clean underwear on! If required I can demonstrate an underwear trail if called upon to do so.


But old passport has an expiry date so would not be considered valid after that date.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

Of course but I would be using my new passport and in the unlikely event that a query was raised regarding the number I could show the old one together with the new.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> Of course but I would be using my new passport and in the unlikely event that a query was raised regarding the number I could show the old one together with the new.


Does that mean you'd have to carry two around with you instead of one?

I'll be taking my old passport with me when I do the rounds of various offices, because I'd bet a pound to a penny that I'll encounter some people who won't be familiar with the fact that British passports have a new number each time a new one is issued, rather than always staying the same as DNI numbers do.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia (Nov 15, 2008)

I don´t carry my passport around as it would be in tatters. A risk I suppose but I suspect not many people do. I personally will oñly inform my bank when I have to renew my passport but thats my choice. I do of course live in the wilds of NW Spain. When I travel away from home I do carry it.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> I don´t carry my passport around as it would be in tatters. A risk I suppose but I suspect not many people do. I personally will oñly inform my bank when I have to renew my passport but thats my choice. I do of course live in the wilds of NW Spain. When I travel away from home I do carry it.


Mine gets carried around in the handy, ideal sized plastic wallet that came with our health insurance ID card and cheques de asistencia. As I carried them around anyway (they're no good at home if you're taken ill somewhere or involved in an accident), it was no hardship to put the passport in the same wallet, so it's had very little wear and tear.


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

For us Irish pport holders we are getting a new credit card size EU ID card which will be acceptable in Spain instead of carrying a pport ( doesn't replace passport, is in addition)


http://flyinginireland.com/2015/04/the-new-irish-passport-card-another-option-when-travelling/


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> For us Irish pport holders we are getting a new credit card size EU ID card which will be acceptable in Spain instead of carrying a pport ( doesn't replace passport, is in addition)
> 
> 
> Â» The new Irish Passport Card, another option when travelling


Just like every other sensible country in Europe, then. The UK always has to be different and then moans like hell and blames everything on Brussels when them being out of step causes problems.

And the cost of a Spanish passport is only €26.02, btw. How much does an Irish one cost?


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Normal 10 year one is €80. This card which lasts 5 years is €35


----------



## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

I always equate the time and aggro of getting something that you may never use to the time and aggro of NOT getting something that you may need to use at short notice,,, here's a good example, how long does it take to check your spare tyre in the boot of your car, be realistic one minute tops, pull the cover back bit of a squeeze to make sure its not deflated (don't go there about PSI etc), compared to needing it on a wet rainy night on the side of a busy motorway and guess what its as flat as a pancake, one mins each week or two hours waiting for a tow truck plus garage bills, when was the last time you checked your spare??? just saying. PS is 'equate' the right word to use, I am looking at it and it doesn't quite look right, step forward all the grammar pedants.


----------



## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Equate is a perfectly good word yo use - no pedantry required. 
A passport is not required to move around the UK nor is it needed for identification purposes. If someone emigrates to another country and that country requires a passport as an identity document then that is that country's problem not the UK's.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Calas felices said:


> If someone emigrates to another country and that country requires a passport as an identity document then that is that country's problem not the UK's.


Hahaha!
That gave me a chuckle while having breakfast


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> Equate is a perfectly good word yo use - no pedantry required.
> A passport is not required to move around the UK nor is it needed for identification purposes. *If someone emigrates to another country and that country requires a passport as an identity document then that is that country's problem not the UK's.*


Not quite. If you haven't got one it is not the UK's problem, nor is it the problem of the country to which you have moved, it is, irreconcilably, *YOUR OWN* problem.


----------

