# Has anyone sold their house?



## Isobella

I keep reading that a Spanish property sales are picking up but our place has been on sale over 2 years and not many viewings. Due to buying in the 90's we are asking a good price. No one else I know has sold either. Seen the same houses for sale for years. Agents are saying they are selling but their lists are long and they would say that wouldn't they

So, has anyone sold.


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## Pazcat

No, but we are endeavouring to buy one.
Just waiting on the I's and T's to be dotted and crossed at the moment.


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## larryzx

Isobella said:


> Agents are saying they are selling but their lists are long and they would say that wouldn't they
> .


They also say father Christmas is alive and well. But even if he is, even he is not buying either !!!!

Quote:- 
'_
According to the latest data from the National Institute of Statistics, the number of Spanish home sales registered in the property register in August fell by 1% compared to the same time last year. It was also the lowest level of sales in August since the crisis began, and *18 percent down on July. *_


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## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> I keep reading that a Spanish property sales are picking up but our place has been on sale over 2 years and not many viewings. Due to buying in the 90's we are asking a good price. No one else I know has sold either. Seen the same houses for sale for years. Agents are saying they are selling but their lists are long and they would say that wouldn't they
> 
> So, has anyone sold.


Houses have sold here throughout the recession, but the only ones selling are small €100,000 and under ones, being bought as holiday homes - most buyers being from Sweden and Norway plus a few British ones.

I know at least 3 people who have had their houses on the market for 5 years plus, though. All of them are asking more than the market currently values their properties at. They started off with asking prices that would have represented a substantial profit for them and have reduced them bit by bit over the years, but all they are doing is following the market down. I am sure if they had asked a more realistic price at the outset they could have sold sooner. One couple I know sold their house within 2 weeks just by putting a Se Vende sign up - they were moving to the Middle East for work and priced it at just above the break even mark for what they'd paid plus taxes.


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## Madliz

After 3 years and 3 months on the market, I seem :fingerscrossed: to have a buyer for my house. We have signed a preliminary contract, a _contrato de arras_, and I have a small deposit. A private contract is due to be signed in a couple of weeks when a further 25% will be paid. Until then, I will keep my fingers firmly crossed. The buyer, I am told, was interested in another house but 'they couldn't do a deal'. There's always the possibility, in my mind, that the other people might do a deal, such that my 'buyer' can afford to walk away from his deposit. In order to do a deal, I had to drop my price even more than I had already, the agent reduced their commission and the buyer increased his offer, until we had a price that we was acceptable to all. I can't say I'm happy with the price, I don't think anyone can be in these crisis times, but it is the price I have to pay (or is that accept?) in order to move on with my life. I am surrounded by hundreds of similar properties, many of which have been for sale for longer than mine, many of which will never sell at the prices they are asking. 

My buyer is an elderly Spaniard, returning to his roots after living in Andalucía and is a cash buyer. Most of the other prospective buyers I've had have either still had properties to sell, or needed a mortgage, which are still nigh on impossible to obtain.

In my opinion, you have to accept today's prices (which are a lot less than 'asking prices'), or not sell. We all like to think we're getting a good deal for our money, whatever we're spending it on, and house buyers today are spoilt for choice.


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## larryzx

Isobella. If you really want to get rid, then OK offer it at a give-away price. 

If you want to 'sell it' then I don't think you have much of a chance.

A couple of years ago my son wanted to sell an apartment. We put it on sale at what we thought was a realistic price as recommended by a couple of agents. When it did not sell after several months we allowed a friend to stay in it rent free. 

As I said that was two years ago and we have no intention of putting in on the market now as it is probably a worse seller's market now than it was two years ago, Fortunately my son can wait, no mortgage and he does not need the money.

Good luck, maybe you could buy a lottery ticket and get a better chance of winning than selling.


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## Relyat

I've just bought one here which had been reduced in price by 20% between us first seeing it in April and buying in July.

At the initial price we didn't want to pay that much so left it, it was only after another fell through that we found it had been reduced to what we thought to be a reasonable price and went ahead.

So yes, houses are selling, but not many it seems and only those realistically priced


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## 90199

No not sold despite reducing the price, no one has any money, mortgages are available, but jobs are few.

So we shall keep it for visitors and family.


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## Pazcat

The guy on the house we are in the paperwork stage accepted less than what we actually offered. I had to laugh when the agent came back and said he'd take less.
I guess that must say something.

Still, we have missed out on one house because of procrastination and another 2 or 3 we were watching have gone. All for more than two or three times the 100K mentioned above. People are buying but the market is flooded so it likely isn't having much of a dent in things and it's still hard to find the right type house though amongst it all.

Mortgage was easier than we thought to get too but we got the whole range of responses from the banks, some were bordering on rude with their response while others bent over backwards for us.
The process though is a pain, each house has to be assessed individually and considering most houses are not legal a bank wont give a mortgage on them.
That is the biggest hurdle, having your full property and buildings declared. If they aren't then it wont sell.

In the end we ended up crossing 3/4s of our list off before visiting them simply because it didn't match the cadastral and frankly even it it matches there it never does on the deeds.


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## Maureen47

I have to agree with some of the other posters, we had been looking for almost 2 yrs when we bought , the houses priced to sell have sold and the others above current market value are still there 2 yrs on. There are so many available that people will go for the ones at the right price and also those that are legal. There are so many that although the land shows up on the registry the buildings do not when the search for the docs happens. Its a hard situation for sellers currently and folks we have dealt with have bent over backwards to help us secure the sale as the pool of cash buyers is small.


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## Isobella

Interesting comments. I agree many are overpriced but the ones that aren't still don't sell. Ours is the lowest price on the urbanisation. I think we shall just wait until things pick up (if we are still alive fortunately we kept the house in the UK. We were planning to sell it and move to Spain permanently but decided we didn't want to after a couple of cold wet winters.


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## extranjero

Yes Pazcat, absolutely hilarious when the poor s.d accepted less, really funny that he was that desperate!


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## Rabbitcat

Def a buyers market . Some great bargains to be had


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## deefitz

If anyone is desperate to get rid of a reasonably priced 3 bed house (not on an urbanisation) we'll gladly give it our consideration


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## Lolito

We are getting the keys of our new house on Thursday. In the end, they accepted 40,000 euros below the asking price. We were both (vendors and buyers) happy. Some people just refuse to lower the price anymore for whatever reason they might have.


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## Pazcat

extranjero said:


> Yes Pazcat, absolutely hilarious when the poor s.d accepted less, really funny that he was that desperate!



Oh, you must of read it wrong. We offered more than what they accepted, so yes it was quite odd to offer X amount and have a reply saying you can have it for less.
Makes you wonder why they were messing about in the first place. Maybe we should of offered the standard 20% less, too late now I guess.

Not sure what you are getting at, should I feel bad for this person?
This poor sod?

Not that it needs explaining but I'm more than fine with it.
Maybe my heart would kick in if we were buying one of the many foreclosures we have visited that were scattered with derelict children's toys and broken family pictures or perhaps if it was a family home that you know they are taking a big hit on and due to the current economic situation this family are much worse off.
House hunting in Spain in a real eye opener, clearly lives and livelihoods have been destroyed because of the "Crisis".
We have been through the process a couple of times(and failed) and I had to remind myself that we aren't these peoples friends or feel bad for their back story, like it or not this is business.
Still none of that is going to make me offer more than what a buyer is willing to accept let alone the ticket price.

I may be wrong(I often am) but with this house at least I don't have to pause to think maybe an injustice has been done on our part like I entertained on the ones previous.

Taking inflation into account the owner is still making a generous profit, not a loss.
The owner is a non resident in Spain and will have to fly over to sign the papers so they are not stuck in a Spanish nightmare looking for an escape.
Actually their current address is quite desirable, certainly it's out of our price bracket whether buying or renting and by a considerable margin.
Maybe by them offering us less is a slight guilt complex for the 20+ years of tax evasion that is on the property and is holding the whole deal up.

So yes, I do hope the poor sod can offload their tax liability as fast as they can and one day maybe, just maybe I can afford a nice second home somewhere whilst living riverside and enjoying retirement.
Until then I will do as best I can to put a roof over my families head a get by.

Both parties are happy with this and that is all that matters.


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## Lynn R

Pazcat said:


> Maybe by them offering us less is a slight guilt complex for the 20+ years of tax evasion that is on the property and is holding the whole deal up.
> .


Now that really is hilarious (although a nuisance for you if it's delaying completion).

It's quite made my day to hear of one of these cheats being caught up with for a change.:lol:


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## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Interesting comments. I agree many are overpriced but the ones that aren't still don't sell. Ours is the lowest price on the urbanisation. I think we shall just wait until things pick up (if we are still alive fortunately we kept the house in the UK. We were planning to sell it and move to Spain permanently but decided we didn't want to after a couple of cold wet winters.


I am no estate agent, but do you think it would be better to take your property off the market until you have seen a definite upturn in the local market where your property is, rather than leaving it on? I always think that if people can see a property has been on the market for years, it tends to put them off as they assume there is something wrong with it, or they make even lower offers as they assume the vendor must be desperate to sell after so long. A lot of people do look at websites over a long period of time when they're contemplating a purchase, and it can be quite easy to tell from the sequence of property reference numbers on estate agents' websites how long a property has been on there.


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## Isobella

Yes, we have been thinking of that. A few of our friends have done the same. We do still use it, was out the whole of Sept. But now tend to go somewhere warmer in winter.

We rented it out and all was fine for 6 months and they stopped paying. They did a runner before court proceedings. Was one of these one year millionaire families


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## extranjero

Lolito said:


> We are getting the keys of our new house on Thursday. In the end, they accepted 40,000 euros below the asking price. We were both (vendors and buyers) happy. Some people just refuse to lower the price anymore for whatever reason they might have.


Well, perhaps those reasons are:
The exchange rate now means they are getting less for their property, if they are going back to the UK and have to buy a house there
Once the fees for estate agent, plus valia, solicitor, notary etc have been deducted, that leaves a big hole in the proceeds from the sale.
40, 000 euros below asking price is an insult, in my opinion
You can't blame people for not wanting to give away the property in which they have invested so much over the years!


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## Lolito

extranjero said:


> Well, perhaps those reasons are:
> The exchange rate now means they are getting less for their property, if they are going back to the UK and have to buy a house there
> Once the fees for estate agent, plus valia, solicitor, notary etc have been deducted, that leaves a big hole in the proceeds from the sale.
> 40, 000 euros below asking price is an insult, in my opinion
> You can't blame people for not wanting to give away the property in which they have invested so much over the years!


It was pretty unrealistically priced in the first place, and they knew that, hence why they accepted 40,000 less (we offered 50,000 less). They are not from UK and they are moving out to another house they have nearby in Spain. I guess they have no money problems and still they are going to make a good profit after taxes, etc. They were very happy to sell for that price, and we were too. 

There are some people out there that still don't know we are in the middle of a crisis and that prices need to go down whether they like it or not, even if they make a loss. It's just life. 

My friend sold his flat recently, it was advertised for 139,000 at the beginning, Someone offered him 115,000 and he thought it was an 'insult' so he refused the offer. Only 10 months later he sold it for 75,000. 

If you want rid of, then lower the price as much as you can.


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## Horlics

Bit harsh. You don't know the overall value, is 40k off of 1 million an insult? Or 500K, or 100k.

Regardless, I bet there are quite a few home owners who have been "insulted" over the years, who would now love to wind the clock back and hear the insult again.... and accept!

Consider the case of somebody who walked into a Spanish property exhibition in 2007 in a hotel in a city in England, and who stupidly paid off-plan for a property in a part of Spain they'd never been to, because they thought it was easy profit for no work. Yes, this happened, a lot! 

I think it's a bigger insult for them to expect me to meet their over-inflated ideas of what it is worth.

Anyway, if I walk into an estate agent and I am told a property is a fixed price or open to offers in excess of a particular value, then that's pretty clear. If, on the other hand, I am told the property is open to offers, I'll feel I can make an offer and won't worry about insulting anybody.



extranjero said:


> 40, 000 euros below asking price is an insult, in my opinion


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## Lynn R

Buyers don't care how the exchange rate affects you as the vendor, they don't care whether you are going to have to buy another house in the UK or anywhere else, they don't care how much you as the vendor have to pay in fees and taxes, and they don't care how much you paid for the house in the first place.

It cannot be said too often that any house is only worth what a buyer is prepared to pay for it. End of.

I know some people who put their house up for sale in 2008 for approx €180,000. They refused an offer of €140,000 some time later, saying they weren't prepared to give it away. The asking price was about double what they would have paid for it, and they hadn't spent any money on improvements since. It is still for sale today, now reduced to €98,000 and still no takers.


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## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> Buyers don't care how the exchange rate affects you as the vendor, they don't care whether you are going to have to buy another house in the UK or anywhere else, they don't care how much you as the vendor have to pay in fees and taxes, and they don't care how much you paid for the house in the first place.
> 
> *It cannot be said too often that any house is only worth what a buyer is prepared to pay for it. End of.
> *
> I know some people who put their house up for sale in 2008 for approx €180,000. They refused an offer of €140,000 some time later, saying they weren't prepared to give it away. The asking price was about double what they would have paid for it, and they hadn't spent any money on improvements since. It is still for sale today, now reduced to €98,000 and still no takers.


hits the nail on the head

not long before my husband died we looked at a house we liked - they wanted 400,000 € - in our opinion, knowing the area & property market well, it was worth no more than 300,000€ - it had been on the market for over a year already, so we offered 300,000€

it was refused

about 18 months ago the wife (now widow, as her husband also died) accepted 200,000€ for it


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## Lynn R

I bet this one doesn't hang around for long, especially if it ends up being shown on A Place in the Sun, which they filmed it for a few weeks ago:-

http://www.essential-properties.com/listing/xl1407-velez-malaga/

I don't know who is selling it, nor am I in any way connected with the estate agents, but this just strikes me as a good example of a sensibly priced house, will probably go to somebody looking for a holiday home which doesn't need anything spent on it.


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## extranjero

Lynn R said:


> I bet this one doesn't hang around for long, especially if it ends up being shown on A Place in the Sun, which they filmed it for a few weeks ago:-
> 
> http://www.essential-properties.com/listing/xl1407-velez-malaga/
> 
> I don't know who is selling it, nor am I in any way connected with the estate agents, but this just strikes me as a good example of a sensibly priced house, will probably go to somebody looking for a holiday home which doesn't need anything spent on it.


I agree it is a sensibly priced house.
So, in your view, what would you say a sensible price is for a 3 bed 3 bath , 135 sq metre furnished villa, with lots of extras, private 9 x 5 swimming pool, conservatory,mature gardens with shrubs and fruit trees, on a 600 sq metre plot, near shops , medical centre, etc, 15 mins from unspoiled port, lovely beaches?


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## Rabbitcat

Extranjero- sounds an absolute cracker 

Which area?


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## Isobella

Offering less is ok. If you have done your homework. Some sensible sellers may have already cut their asking price by 40/50% and would not be prepared to go any lower. Tourist areas are a strange market. There are many who would like to sell but not desperate. I would say at least 80% of property on the market is still overpriced.


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## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> Extranjero- sounds an absolute cracker
> 
> Which area?


Have sent you PM


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## extranjero

Isobella said:


> Offering less is ok. If you have done your homework. Some sensible sellers may have already cut their asking price by 40/50% and would not be prepared to go any lower. Tourist areas are a strange market. There are many who would like to sell but not desperate. I would say at least 80% of property on the market is still overpriced.


Care to say why, and give an example?


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## Lynn R

extranjero said:


> I agree it is a sensibly priced house.
> So, in your view, what would you say a sensible price is for a 3 bed 3 bath , 135 sq metre furnished villa, with lots of extras, private 9 x 5 swimming pool, conservatory,mature gardens with shrubs and fruit trees, on a 600 sq metre plot, near shops , medical centre, etc, 15 mins from unspoiled port, lovely beaches?


I have absolutely no idea because I have no clue what the market is like in your area.

I only know the little bit where I live!

However, as I think I said earlier, around here it is the smaller, cheaper houses which are selling (probably cash purchases), nearly all of them for holiday homes.

The larger, more expensive ones are not.


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## Rabbitcat

Come on. Some of you more seasoned experienced members have a stab.

It sounds drop dead gorgeous.

I don't know the area but the spec for the house sounds idyllic


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## Horlics

The key bit is "I don't know the area".

One word, three times: Location, location, location.





Rabbitcat said:


> Come on. Some of you more seasoned experienced members have a stab.
> 
> It sounds drop dead gorgeous.
> 
> I don't know the area but the spec for the house sounds idyllic


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## extranjero

100, 150,200, 250, 300k?


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## Rabbitcat

I will have a stab at €239k

Bet I am wrong!!!!!!


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## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> I will have a stab at €239k
> 
> Bet I am wrong!!!!!!


Not bad! You are 46 k too low!


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## Pazcat

It's all relative though, we could of picked up the same sort of villa a 2 minute walk from the beach for 180K. Good price and while we thought about it it got snapped up. 
Put that same villa up inland a bit and you can get one for 140-160K. 
Loads are on the market in this area for around 200+ and they aren't moving. 180-190K seems to be a good starting point.
Why even bother looking at the higher priced properties when their carbon copies are starting 50K lower?


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## Rabbitcat

extranjero said:


> Not bad! You are 46 k too low!



Ha, ha knew I had no chance at my daft price.


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## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> Ha, ha knew I had no chance at my daft price.


Sorry, Rabbitcat, I was distracted by Strictly come dancing, and made a mistake!
You are overpricing it by 54k!
Feel better now?


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## Rabbitcat

extranjero said:


> Sorry, Rabbitcat, I was distracted by Strictly come dancing, and made a mistake!
> You are overpricing it by 54k!
> Feel better now?



Feel better????


I was rich I would send a deposit!!!!


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## Rugbyplod

I have been looking at all the web sites there appears to be similar houses but massive differentials in the prices I will be hoping to travel over early next year to start looking properly I am just concerned at the legal status of some property's how can I make certain the houses i look at are legal


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## country boy

quick answer...don't buy anything less than 50 years old. Our Finca ....1850, and built on rock. No worries!


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## Lolito

I think Extranjero's villa is far too expensive. I don't know the area, but 'villas' exactly like that, around here you can get them for 130,000 o even less. 

There is a row of chalets/villas near the beach, all exactly the same, and there are 4 or 5 up for sale, with totally different asking prices, weird!


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## Chopera

Asking prices have always varied a lot in Spain because Spanish EAs are happy to have overpriced properties on their books whereas UK Estate Agents aren't. The reason for this is that in Spain the EA generally has less work to do, the standards expected of them are lower, but they take a bigger percentage if they do sell a property. So for them there is little downside in marketing an overpriced property, but plenty of potential upside. 

In the UK if you try to get an EA to market a property at 20% above the market value they'd probably tell you to get lost, in Spain the EA probably doesn't even know the market value but will gladly spend 5 minutes uploading their poor quality photos to their website. Their tactics are to advertise as many properties as possible and that's it. In fact it is quite common for EAs in Spain to advertise properties they find on other property websites, without even telling the vendor. If someone wants to view the property the EA then tries to track down the vendor and negotiate a contract/viewing. If the vendor lowers the asking price or the property is sold, many EAs don't realise this, and keep advertising the property at the old price. This is why you see the many properties advertised at different prices.

It's what happens when you have a completely unregulated industry - anyone can become an EA in Spain and run their "business" from home. It's why the service they provide is generally so poor. Of course that's not to say theren't aren't any good EAs in Spain - it's just that there are a lots of bad ones.


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## extranjero

Lolito said:


> I think Extranjero's villa is far too expensive. I don't know the area, but 'villas' exactly like that, around here you can get them for 130,000 o even less.
> 
> There is a row of chalets/villas near the beach, all exactly the same, and there are 4 or 5 up for sale, with totally different asking prices, weird!


Far too expensive- how do you work that one out?


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## Lynn R

It always used to be said about the UK property market that if a house was for sale and wasn't getting any viewings, then it was the asking price that was the problem, but if it was getting viewings but no offers, then it was something about the property that was putting people off. I wonder if the same applies to Spain?

Obviously prices for broadly the same type of house vary a great deal according to area. Lolito says villas similar to the one Extranjero is selling are priced around €130,000 in her area. On the other hand, a 3 bed 3 bath property with private pool (and not even detached) would not be on sale for under €250,000 in Nerja. No doubt even higher than that in Marbella.


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## Lolito

That's the thing, I have just bought myself a villa as the one Extranjero lists here. Only it is 1200 sq.meters and about 300 metres from unspoiled beach, 4 beds and 2 baths for 130,000. 

Different areas, different prices - for the same thing. Extranjero's villa in this area, wouldn't sell for less than 150k, but if his villa is in Malaga, maybe people would be willing to pay more.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> You can't blame people for not wanting to give away the property in which they have invested so much over the years!


Some of these people will still be selling at more than they paid for their properties.
Their whinge is that they haven't made the profit they expected.
Tough ****. They should have realised that any investment is a risk. Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> I agree it is a sensibly priced house.
> So, in your view, what would you say a sensible price is for a 3 bed 3 bath , 135 sq metre furnished villa, with lots of extras, private 9 x 5 swimming pool, conservatory,mature gardens with shrubs and fruit trees, on a 600 sq metre plot, near shops , medical centre, etc, 15 mins from unspoiled port, lovely beaches?


Around where I live, now the price would be around the 5 to 600k euro mark.
Eight or so years ago some fool would have paid almost a million euros.

That's why we are renting.

Incidentally, it's the more expensive properties that are selling. Luxury villas for four million euros or more in Marbella don't stay on the market for long.


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## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> Some of these people will still be selling at more than they paid for their properties.
> Their whinge is that they haven't made the profit they expected.
> Tough ****. They should have realised that any investment is a risk. Sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose.


Not only that but properties bought by Brits before the crash would have benefited from a very good exchange rate between the pound and the euro (about 1.5 euros to 1 pound on average). When the crash hit the pound devalued by nearly a third against the euro. So people wanting to get out could have knocked up to a third off the price of their property, sold it and got the same number of pounds back. Even up to a year ago they could have still knocked 20% off the price and got the money back on the exchange rate. Of course some property did become almost "unsellable" because of the glut of building that was going on, but I really suspect there's also a lot of property stuck on the market because of pigheadedness on the part of the vendor.


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## Dunpleecin

I think it's like anything. A place will go if it is attractive to the buyer and is at the right price. I think you have to factor in the fact that a lot of people are being unrealistic with asking prices owing to the fact that they paid far more for the property some years ago.


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## larryzx

deleted by larry


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## larryzx

Dunpleecin said:


> I think it's like anything. A place will go if it is attractive to the buyer and is at the right price. I think you have to factor in the fact that a lot of people are being unrealistic with asking prices owing to the fact that they paid far more for the property some years ago.



But only of there are buyers with the money who have not been put off by the bad news about prices still falling, illegal building, and 'out of the blue' charges for 'improvements'' to the area etc.

2007 exchange rates:-

Jan 1.507885 – 31 days
Feb 1.497278 – 28 days
Mar 1.470379 – 31 days
Apr 1.470962 – 30 days
May 1.467898 – 31 days
Jun 1.479383 – 30 days
Jul 1.482413 – 31 days
Aug 1.475913 – 31 days
Sep 1.452051 – 30 days
Oct 1.436595 – 31 days
Nov 1.410699 – 30 days
Dec 1.384599 – 31 days


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## mrypg9

Dunpleecin said:


> I think it's like anything. A place will go if it is attractive to the buyer and is at the right price. I think you have to factor in the fact that a lot of people are being unrealistic with asking prices owing to the fact that they paid far more for the property some years ago.


It all depends on why you bought. If you bought for the long-term, to live in as your sole residence here in Spain, intending perhaps to leave the property to your children..then the current price will be of little other than passing interest.
But if you bought as an 'investment' then you have to take the rough with the smooth. I don't recall people wanting to give money to charity when the value of their properties soared in the boom years and they had a huge paper profit. But as I said they are quick to whinge when prices fall.
Last week the stock market fell dramatically. We have money in stocks and shares so I dare say we took a hit. But we didn't whinge. It's a risk you take. Hopefully the market will recover and we'll of course be pleased. You take the risk...or you keep your money under the mattress.

One could, were one of a religious bent, ponder on the sage teaching of the Gospel:
'Lay up not thy treasure on earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt'...
Or one might add:' Where profit doth fall as well as rise'.


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## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> It all depends on why you bought. If you bought for the long-term, to live in as your sole residence here in Spain, intending perhaps to leave the property to your children..then the current price will be of little other than passing interest.
> But if you bought as an 'investment' then you have to take the rough with the smooth. I don't recall people wanting to give money to charity when the value of their properties soared in the boom years and they had a huge paper profit. But as I said they are quick to whinge when prices fall.
> Last week the stock market fell dramatically. We have money in stocks and shares so I dare say we took a hit. But we didn't whinge. It's a risk you take. Hopefully the market will recover and we'll of course be pleased. You take the risk...or you keep your money under the mattress.
> 
> One could, were one of a religious bent, ponder on the sage teaching of the Gospel:
> 'Lay up not thy treasure on earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt'...
> Or one might add:' Where profit doth fall as well as rise'.


Unlike house prices, your stocks and shares will rise in value again!
We didn't buy here as an investment.We planned to live out the rest of our lives, but for various reasons, like many others, we want and need to go back to the UK.
With the fall in house prices, exchange rate, everything is against us when selling.
No, we don't want to give it away, and we think the price we are asking is a fair one , not greedy.
If we sold now at eg 135 kg. with the vultures taking a large chunk, We would be lucky to get a terraced house in a poor area, and no, there's no way we would pay the extortionate rents in the UK.
So, I guess we'll just have to see if the publicised upturn in the market materialises.
We've got a few years yet before we are in our dotage, but of course, anything can happen.
Must buy a ticket for El Gordo!


----------



## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Unlike house prices, your stocks and shares will rise in value again!
> We didn't buy here as an investment.We planned to live out the rest of our lives, but for various reasons, like many others, we want and need to go back to the UK.
> With the fall in house prices, exchange rate, everything is against us when selling.
> No, we don't want to give it away, and we think the price we are asking is a fair one , not greedy.
> If we sold now at eg 135 kg. with the vultures taking a large chunk, We would be lucky to get a terraced house in a poor area, and no, there's no way we would pay the extortionate rents in the UK.
> So, I guess we'll just have to see if the publicised upturn in the market materialises.
> We've got a few years yet before we are in our dotage, but of course, anything can happen.
> Must buy a ticket for El Gordo!


Yes you are right...the stock market will recover. But it would be my bad luck to drop dead the day the share prices rose dramatically!
And that's the point I'm making. We now live by the Holy Writ of the markets and house prices are part of that. The market will pay no heed to your needs and wants just as it pays no heed to those poor sods who took on a mortgage, lost their jobs and have been evicted.
There is no such thing as a 'fair' price for anything. There is only the price a purchaser is willing to pay. That's another rule of the market. When we left the UK we rented out our house and put the business premises up for sale. We fed up of renting after six months and accepted the first offer on the house when we could certainly have got much more because when we considered all the factors it was better to have the cash in our hands. Ditto business premises.
Shortly after both sales were concluded and money safely banked the crisis hit and the bottom fell out of all property markets. So we were in fact very lucky.
Losing what we could have made on our properties has prevented us from buying a gold-plated Merc (or any Merc, come to that. I had one, a nice new cabrio, when we came here, but sold it to pay the first year's rent!) or living in a mini-mansion.
Sometimes, tough though it seems, you have to go with the flow.
That, sadly, is the truth of life in our property-owning democracy.


----------



## HeatherH

Isobella said:


> I keep reading that a Spanish property sales are picking up but our place has been on sale over 2 years and not many viewings. Due to buying in the 90's we are asking a good price. No one else I know has sold either. Seen the same houses for sale for years. Agents are saying they are selling but their lists are long and they would say that wouldn't they
> 
> So, has anyone sold.


No we have not and have even tried exchange but no go. The last attempt will be by the old Spanish handshake, a private contract, still legal we are told by our lawyer and the method the Spanish in the campo prefer.
Failing that we lock up as securely as possible and walk away.


----------



## Expatliving

Great thread, right up my street.

I'm in the 'preliminary stage' of serious home finding, I'm probably looking at moving late Spring/early Summer next year, but thought some of you maybe interested with how I'm approaching my search. 

Firstly, location is key. A mix of all cultures and nationalities is best, but an imbalance of expats does not bother me.

Next up, the legal stuff, right across the board, everything legit with no outstanding debts.

Thirdly, schools, important, both International (AS/A levels) and State.

Potential hazards ... Flooding, fire etc!

Position of the property, obviously S/SW is best for the 'must have' pool.

The up keep of the building, what turns me off during searches are poorly maintained buildings and a personal 'no, no' an empty dirty swimming pool. Why on Earth do people do that? No one would sell a car dirty?

As a builder, I would be checking the building myself and getting a full structural survey.

Price wise, I would be a cash buyer and will look at the potential growth or loss in value of the property over forthcoming years.

I was wondering, is there a way of finding out the previous sold prices for properties, similar to Zoopla in the UK? It's a long shot, but it would help.


----------



## HeatherH

Expatliving said:


> Great thread, right up my street.
> 
> I'm in the 'preliminary stage' of serious home finding, I'm probably looking at moving late Spring/early Summer next year, but thought some of you maybe interested with how I'm approaching my search.
> 
> Firstly, location is key. A mix of all cultures and nationalities is best, but an imbalance of expats does not bother me.
> 
> Next up, the legal stuff, right across the board, everything legit with no outstanding debts.
> 
> Thirdly, schools, important, both International (AS/A levels) and State.
> 
> Potential hazards ... Flooding, fire etc!
> 
> Position of the property, obviously S/SW is best for the 'must have' pool.
> 
> The up keep of the building, what turns me off during searches are poorly maintained buildings and a personal 'no, no' an empty dirty swimming pool. Why on Earth do people do that? No one would sell a car dirty?
> 
> As a builder, I would be checking the building myself and getting a full structural survey.
> 
> Price wise, I would be a cash buyer and will look at the potential growth or loss in value of the property over forthcoming years.
> 
> I was wondering, is there a way of finding out the previous sold prices for properties, similar to Zoopla in the UK? It's a long shot, but it would help.


Sorry cannot help with the Zoopla previous sold prices, am sure there is no such thing here. Well our property fits most of you list of requirements except the empty pool. Ours is empty because it requires repairing and we have run out of capital for big jobs and the prices we had quoted it must have been a big job. 
You say you are a builder yourself and would do a full structural survey, well Spanish houses are not built in the same way, and in particular the rooves are mind boggling the way they build those
Good luck with your searching, there are hundreds to choose from.


----------



## Madliz

Hundreds to choose from? This on idealista.com today:

1.547.279 anuncios, 1.393 nuevos ayer

This from just one property site, and maybe there are multiple listings of the same house, but there are many sites and many simple 'se vende' signs stuck on windows. More like MILLIONS to choose from!


----------



## HeatherH

Madliz said:


> Hundreds to choose from? This on idealista.com today:
> 
> 1.547.279 anuncios, 1.393 nuevos ayer
> 
> This from just one property site, and maybe there are multiple listings of the same house, but there are many sites and many simple 'se vende' signs stuck on windows. More like MILLIONS to choose from!


Yes, and unfortunately ours is just one of them.


----------



## Chopera

Expatliving said:


> Great thread, right up my street.
> 
> I'm in the 'preliminary stage' of serious home finding, I'm probably looking at moving late Spring/early Summer next year, but thought some of you maybe interested with how I'm approaching my search.
> 
> Firstly, location is key. A mix of all cultures and nationalities is best, but an imbalance of expats does not bother me.
> 
> Next up, the legal stuff, right across the board, everything legit with no outstanding debts.
> 
> Thirdly, schools, important, both International (AS/A levels) and State.
> 
> Potential hazards ... Flooding, fire etc!
> 
> Position of the property, obviously S/SW is best for the 'must have' pool.
> 
> The up keep of the building, what turns me off during searches are poorly maintained buildings and a personal 'no, no' an empty dirty swimming pool. Why on Earth do people do that? No one would sell a car dirty?
> 
> As a builder, I would be checking the building myself and getting a full structural survey.
> 
> Price wise, I would be a cash buyer and will look at the potential growth or loss in value of the property over forthcoming years.
> 
> I was wondering, is there a way of finding out the previous sold prices for properties, similar to Zoopla in the UK? It's a long shot, but it would help.


Spanish sold house prices aren't made public - although you can find out the previous transaction prices for a particular property from the land registry (at a cost).

You can find out the outstanding debts via the "nota simple" which you can get from the council.

Don't sell your main residence in the UK in the same year you become resident in Spain.

If you are looking to invest take into account the +12% purchase costs, and possibly 10% sale costs - you need the property to go up in value by 20% to recuperate these costs. Or you could make money from rental income - but then you need to take into account the taxes you need to pay and other costs. As a pure cash investment I think you need to take a 10 year view on Spanish property in general, but that's just a personal opinion. Of course if you enjoy Spain and enjoy developing property, the value of a property is not only measured in euros.


----------



## Expatliving

Chopera said:


> Spanish sold house prices aren't made public - although you can find out the previous transaction prices for a particular property from the land registry (at a cost).
> 
> You can find out the outstanding debts via the "nota simple" which you can get from the council.
> 
> Don't sell your main residence in the UK in the same year you become resident in Spain.
> 
> If you are looking to invest take into account the +12% purchase costs, and possibly 10% sale costs - you need the property to go up in value by 20% to recuperate these costs. Or you could make money from rental income - but then you need to take into account the taxes you need to pay and other costs. As a pure cash investment I think you need to take a 10 year view on Spanish property in general, but that's just a personal opinion. Of course if you enjoy Spain and enjoy developing property, the value of a property is not only measured in euros.


Hi

Thanks for that, can you possibly explain the >>"Don't sell your main residence in the UK in the same year you become resident in Spain"<< advice please? Or anybody who understands what bureaucracy that could land at my new home door? 

Many thanks.
:confused2:


----------



## Horlics

*Recovery*

"Unlike house prices, your stocks and shares will rise in value again!"

I do hope shares recover soon. I made my investment in one go on the last trading day of 1999. They've been worth less ever since.

(I didn't, but you'll probably get my point)


----------



## Expatliving

Horlics said:


> "Unlike house prices, your stocks and shares will rise in value again!"
> 
> I do hope shares recover soon. I made my investment in one go on the last trading day of 1999. They've been worth less ever since.
> 
> (I didn't, but you'll probably get my point)


Don't believe the hype I guess Horlics?

Estate Agents have a lot to answer for, both in the UK and Spain.

For me it's lifestyle change, leaving a fast changing London (not for the better I add) - with a desire to live a quieter more relaxed lifestyle. I know a move away will mean never being able to return to London? The property prices are rising all the time, it's just a question of making the move when the exchange rate is great and possibly the Spanish house prices really have bottomed out ...


----------



## DaveandLiz

it's just a question of making the move when the exchange rate is great and possibly the Spanish house prices really have bottomed out ..

That's the question................when will we know house prices have bottomed out ?


Dave


----------



## Horlics

Sounds like a great plan. Go for it.

If you want a place to call your own and intend living in it for years, then choose wisely and enjoy making a home and living a new lifestyle

I think now could be the right time but you just have to be smart about it.

Choose a good quality location with good quality housing.



Expatliving said:


> Don't believe the hype I guess Horlics?
> 
> Estate Agents have a lot to answer for, both in the UK and Spain.
> 
> For me it's lifestyle change, leaving a fast changing London (not for the better I add) - with a desire to live a quieter more relaxed lifestyle. I know a move away will mean never being able to return to London? The property prices are rising all the time, it's just a question of making the move when the exchange rate is great and possibly the Spanish house prices really have bottomed out ...


----------



## Horlics

If you could ever know when, Warren Buffet would want you on his staff.



DaveandLiz said:


> it's just a question of making the move when the exchange rate is great and possibly the Spanish house prices really have bottomed out ..
> 
> That's the question................when will we know house prices have bottomed out ?
> 
> 
> Dave


----------



## DaveandLiz

True.......maybe I should give him a call ......

Dave


----------



## Chopera

Expatliving said:


> Hi
> 
> Thanks for that, can you possibly explain the >>"Don't sell your main residence in the UK in the same year you become resident in Spain"<< advice please? Or anybody who understands what bureaucracy that could land at my new home door?
> 
> Many thanks.
> :confused2:


In Spain if you sell your main residence without buying another one within a certain time period then the profits you make on it might be subject to capital gains tax. In the UK they are not. So you want to make sure you are a UK tax resident and not a Spanish tax resident when it comes to filling in your tax return for that year. Of course if you buy a property in Spain within the time period then you won't get taxed anyway, and you might not if you are over 65, but they are always changing the tax laws and the safest thing is to sell the UK property before you become a tax resident in Spain.


----------



## Isobella

A lot of Estate Agents have been saying now is the time to buy and prices have bottomed out. Although they said it last year and the year before. Seeing as I am trying to sell I agree with them


----------



## Horlics

Expatliving said:


> Don't believe the hype I guess Horlics?


Sadly, I'm a bit of a pessimist. The trouble is, every time I go looking for figures to back up my pessimistic outlook there's no shortage of them out there.

The fact that the FTSE is lower now than it was almost 15 years ago is one.

Another is that if you look at Zoopla you can find a huge number of properties in the UK that are available now for less than they last sold at over 10 years ago. I am not talking about only in depressed places, I am referring to major cities where there is plenty of work.

But it's worse than that. That chump Gordon Brown started talking about the knowledge-based economy a few years ago in recognition of global competition creeping into entire new business sectors. We have to be smart to compete now that IT work, back-office business processes and others are outsourced to the East. The problem is, we now charge our young people 9k a term to acquire knowledge having convinced them that a university education is a must (which it isn't, but that's a whole other area). We educate them that debt's ok, which is just as well, because that's exactly how our country is run.

But we've outsourced even the low-end office work too. No matter that we have to listen to **** English from these calls centres, and they lie to their customers... "hello, my name's Bob", "Really, you sound more like a Rajesh to me?".

As for the manual, have-to-be-there type of work, we've an endless supply of cheap labour just a train ride away in Europe.

The overall effect of all this is that wages are being held back for longer than at any time in modern history. There is no growth in wages and inflation is low. So where is the promised and expected house price growth going to come from? 

There is good reason to take the view that house price inflation as witnessed in the past is a thing of the past.

Well almost, because now the crowd sourcing bunch in Silicon Valley is turning its attention to house ownership and development. You can now put as little as 50 UKP into an account which gets invested in house purchases. Which is awful. The Qataris and other arab states like building large pointy buildings in London to show off their wealth but they aren't much interested in the rest of the UK. But now the up-and-coming elite in China can grab a slice of Stoke-on-Trent without ever knowing where it is.

It's a changing world and the only certain thing is that it's uncertain.

(I should say, when I talk about the outlook for housing, I talk about the rest of the UK, not London, which is clearly very different)


----------



## mrypg9

You can look at your decision to move to Spain as a financial decision primarily or a change of lifestyle decision or, if you are lucky, both.
Waiting for the 'right' time to buy while you sit in the gloomy winter of Barnsley or wherever when you do in fact have the means to fund a very enjoyable retirement in Spain, as long as you live within your means, wouldn't appeal to me.
How many thousands of euros is quality of life in retirement worth? That of course is a very personal decision.
One day in September we were walking the dog when my partner said we should pack up the business and move to Prague to live (we have friends there, I'd visited for decades). Two weeks later, in early October, we flew to Prague. One day later our friend had found us a place to live.
On December 19th at around 1.35p.m. we lsoared above London and left the UK for good, with all our goods and chattels chundering across Europe somewhere below us in the removal truck.
As I said above, we sold everything as quickly as possible to have no encumbrances whatsoever.

I cannot describe the sheer delight and enjoyment of that first year in Prague. Literally beyond price.

What we did wouldn't suit everyone, true and we did make sure that we would have enough resources to enable us to survive financial shocks, of which we had a couple, the first being a huge drop in the Koruna/£ exchange rate, the second ditto with the £/euro rate when we moved to Spain three years later.

But you never know what's ahead of you, whether it be economic or personal/health issues. If we had waited and held out for a 'better' price for our properties we could have been waiting for years and getting an even lower price. Either of us could have fallen under a bus or developed serious health problems.

So whilst I disagree strongly with those who say Life's too short, go for it' I equally frown on the excessively cautious. Money might make the world go round but it can't buy you happiness. Two trite clichés...take your pick


----------



## Expatliving

DaveandLiz said:


> it's just a question of making the move when the exchange rate is great and possibly the Spanish house prices really have bottomed out ..
> 
> That's the question................when will we know house prices have bottomed out ?
> 
> 
> Dave


The economic outlook once again in Europe looks uncertain? The weaker European economies are dragging down the more prosperous nations, but that's what we signed up to, albeit, a much smaller Europe 40 years ago.

If a 'triple dip recession' arrives the property values will remain depressed in countries that are struggling. Even though London and the SE of England pushes forward, other parts of the UK are not doing so well. So apart from the SE England anomalies, many areas of the UK are barely seeing property values rise.

A very difficult time for a proposed purchase on the continent? If I had spare cash I would probably invest back into London and enjoy the inflated spoils further South in the sun ... The place is a huge magnet, until the UK leaves the EU? And that's a whole new worrying discussion, both for Brits and Brit Expats in Europe.


----------



## Expatliving

Horlics said:


> If you could ever know when, Warren Buffet would want you on his staff.


Not if he keeps investing in companies like IBM?


----------



## Expatliving

Isobella said:


> A lot of Estate Agents have been saying now is the time to buy and prices have bottomed out. Although they said it last year and the year before. Seeing as I am trying to sell I agree with them


As somebody who is about to purchase, make sure your property is looking at it's best or very nice. I mentioned it before, but who would try to sell a dirty car? Some of the properties I've seen online don't look like a euro has been spent on them for years? It's a big turn off. Also, make sure you get the selling photos done on a sunny day! It's mad when you're trying to attract would be buyers and you see photos of the outside of a property with a background of overcast skies? 

I'm looking out the window in London now and it's overcast and windy! I don't want to associate grey skies with Spain ... Have a heart, it's part of the buyers dream, eternal sun!


----------



## thrax

I know of two people trying to sell their houses in quite different circumstances but the end result is the same: the first is a neighbour who bought her house in 1993 and added to it, legally, over the next decade. In 2007 it was valued at €800,000 but she only had it valued for inheritance tax purposes with no intention of selling. She and her husband have now split up but cannot divorce because of the IHT implications so she decided best thing to do was to sell it. She put it on the market 2 years ago for, you guessed, €800,000 although she confided in me that the buyer would get a bargain as she considered it was now worth €1.2M. In two years not a single viewing. Last week, she approached a valuation company who were know for over-valuing properties. They valued it at between €230,000 and €250,000.

The second is a friend who bought an apartment just before the crash for €167,000 on the coast - frontline - and a very nice apartment. She has a mortgage on it for €150,000. She now has to sell due to personal circumstances - she has always lived in UK - and it is currently on the market for €85,000 and has been since 2008 and so far only two viewings and, of course, not sold.


----------



## Expatliving

Horlics said:


> Sadly, I'm a bit of a pessimist. The trouble is, every time I go looking for figures to back up my pessimistic outlook there's no shortage of them out there.
> 
> The fact that the FTSE is lower now than it was almost 15 years ago is one.
> 
> Another is that if you look at Zoopla you can find a huge number of properties in the UK that are available now for less than they last sold at over 10 years ago. I am not talking about only in depressed places, I am referring to major cities where there is plenty of work.
> 
> But it's worse than that. That chump Gordon Brown started talking about the knowledge-based economy a few years ago in recognition of global competition creeping into entire new business sectors. We have to be smart to compete now that IT work, back-office business processes and others are outsourced to the East. The problem is, we now charge our young people 9k a term to acquire knowledge having convinced them that a university education is a must (which it isn't, but that's a whole other area). We educate them that debt's ok, which is just as well, because that's exactly how our country is run.
> 
> But we've outsourced even the low-end office work too. No matter that we have to listen to **** English from these calls centres, and they lie to their customers... "hello, my name's Bob", "Really, you sound more like a Rajesh to me?".
> 
> As for the manual, have-to-be-there type of work, we've an endless supply of cheap labour just a train ride away in Europe.
> 
> The overall effect of all this is that wages are being held back for longer than at any time in modern history. There is no growth in wages and inflation is low. So where is the promised and expected house price growth going to come from?
> 
> There is good reason to take the view that house price inflation as witnessed in the past is a thing of the past.
> 
> Well almost, because now the crowd sourcing bunch in Silicon Valley is turning its attention to house ownership and development. You can now put as little as 50 UKP into an account which gets invested in house purchases. Which is awful. The Qataris and other arab states like building large pointy buildings in London to show off their wealth but they aren't much interested in the rest of the UK. But now the up-and-coming elite in China can grab a slice of Stoke-on-Trent without ever knowing where it is.
> 
> It's a changing world and the only certain thing is that it's uncertain.
> 
> (I should say, when I talk about the outlook for housing, I talk about the rest of the UK, not London, which is clearly very different)



Hi

Maybe I'm lucky? But I live near Greenwich (02 Dome). My standard semi has risen in value by about 40k in a year? Houses similar to mine have sold nearby and secured those rises and I live in a standard road in the borough of Greenwich.

Also, the FTSE reference is based on it's all time high 14 years ago, so I think that might be a bit of a red herring with regard to the current near record high in the markets?

Next May's election, however, will be a key indicator for the economic outlook for the UK. A Tory win will mean heading towards an In/Out vote. A Labour win will mean no in/out vote. If Labour win the markets will fall, as will house prices (again) in the UK. Even London will get a shock by this outcome.

I liken the UK now as an expensive restaurant that most people want to eat in, however, only some people can afford to pay the bill ... But it doesn't stop people starting their meal without the cash to pay for it!

And that, is why I need to get away from this flaming 'dog eat dog' way of life.


----------



## Expatliving

thrax said:


> I know of two people trying to sell their houses in quite different circumstances but the end result is the same: the first is a neighbour who bought her house in 1993 and added to it, legally, over the next decade. In 2007 it was valued at €800,000 but she only had it valued for inheritance tax purposes with no intention of selling. She and her husband have now split up but cannot divorce because of the IHT implications so she decided best thing to do was to sell it. She put it on the market 2 years ago for, you guessed, €800,000 although she confided in me that the buyer would get a bargain as she considered it was now worth €1.2M. In two years not a single viewing. Last week, she approached a valuation company who were know for over-valuing properties. They valued it at between €230,000 and €250,000.
> 
> The second is a friend who bought an apartment just before the crash for €167,000 on the coast - frontline - and a very nice apartment. She has a mortgage on it for €150,000. She now has to sell due to personal circumstances - she has always lived in UK - and it is currently on the market for €85,000 and has been since 2008 and so far only two viewings and, of course, not sold.


That is enough to give an owner sleepless nights! Jeeze ...


----------



## Pazcat

Expatliving said:


> As somebody who is about to purchase, make sure your property is looking at it's best or very nice. I mentioned it before, but who would try to sell a dirty car? Some of the properties I've seen online don't look like a euro has been spent on them for years? It's a big turn off. Also, make sure you get the selling photos done on a sunny day! It's mad when you're trying to attract would be buyers and you see photos of the outside of a property with a background of overcast skies?
> 
> I'm looking out the window in London now and it's overcast and windy! I don't want to associate grey skies with Spain ... Have a heart, it's part of the buyers dream, eternal sun!


Problem is many of the properties have not been lived in for a long time, many of the sellers are based overseas and have left the key holding up to the real estate agents and some of them are not very good at a simple task like taking a photograph.
None of that is a turn off to me, you have to look past the cosmetic and in fact it can work to a buyers advantage. It's kind of like saying that this house would be perfect if it wasn't for the horrible deco. These are easy fixes.

That is unless of course you don't wish to do anything and want a perfect place right from the get go with no work whatsoever to be done.

The biggest issue a seller faces is legality, around here very little is completely legal. The best thing they can do is get it all up to date, announce on the advertisement that it is completely legal and have all the documents at hand ready to be confirmed by a purchaser. Even with that I wouldn't believe them but it's better than being fed BS at every turn.
It would save a hell of a lot of time and energy for all concerned.


----------



## Isobella

Expatliving said:


> As somebody who is about to purchase, make sure your property is looking at it's best or very nice. I mentioned it before, but who would try to sell a dirty car? Some of the properties I've seen online don't look like a euro has been spent on them for years? It's a big turn off. Also, make sure you get the selling photos done on a sunny day! It's mad when you're trying to attract would be buyers and you see photos of the outside of a property with a background of overcast skies?
> 
> I'm looking out the window in London now and it's overcast and windy! I don't want to associate grey skies with Spain ... Have a heart, it's part of the buyers dream, eternal sun!


I know what you mean about presentation. There was one on here a few days ago with the toilet seat up there are scant viewers in the area anyway. On the other hand sales in the UK are booming. Most go within a month here and according to friends in the Midlands it is the same. It is a feel good factor to look on Zoopla and see the monthly increase, even though we don't want to sell it.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> "Unlike house prices, your stocks and shares will rise in value again!"
> 
> I do hope shares recover soon. I made my investment in one go on the last trading day of 1999. They've been worth less ever since.
> 
> (I didn't, but you'll probably get my point)


Whatever, but cannily invested you'll get more return on your money at the moment than leaving cash stuck in bank deposit or similar.
I know of people getting 14%.
Doubt we are, though.
Not that we're worried. We can pay the rent (already have done for the year) and can put food on the table.
The other things we enjoy, the beach and river walks, sitting on the terrace ayt night, are free.


----------



## Madliz

Here's an article this week showing price falls slowing a little, but still dropping:

! Spanish News Today - Tinsa September Figures Show Spanish Property Prices Continue To Fall

Another, this time from last month, gives little hope of optimism: 

"Swiss bank UBS, together with its army of economists and alike, as well as political and social scientists, has come to a conclusion that Spanish citizens should take the news about property market recovery with a solid pinch of salt.

In their recently released report titled ‘Spain: Real Estate Market. Little at sight with sluggish and uneven recovery‘ (transl. Aura), the authors portend ‘persisting stagnation of bottom-low housing prices which may overrun by 14 years, a similar situation observed in Germany between 1995 and 2009‘.

Read more here: UBS: Rock-Bottom Prices to Stagnate For Next 14 YearsÂ*|Â*Aura Real Estate Experts


So it's still a buyer's market, though the days of watching your property increase in value seem to be gone.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> There was one on here a few days ago with the toilet seat up


What is it about a toilet seat being up that is offensive?:noidea:
A few years ago a very good friend of mine was at our house and after using the toilet remarked that the seat had been up and that was a "punishable offence" in her house. 
It had never occured to me before then that people might have opinions about toilet seats, so what is it???

Can I have the prize for taking a thread most off topic ever ?


----------



## Roy C

Expatliving said:


> Hi
> 
> Maybe I'm lucky? But I live near Greenwich (02 Dome). My standard semi has risen in value by about 40k in a year? Houses similar to mine have sold nearby and secured those rises and I live in a standard road in the borough of Greenwich.
> 
> Also, the FTSE reference is based on it's all time high 14 years ago, so I think that might be a bit of a red herring with regard to the current near record high in the markets?
> 
> Next May's election, however, will be a key indicator for the economic outlook for the UK. A* Tory win will mean heading towards an In/Out vote. A Labour win will mean no in/out vote. If Labour win the markets will fall, as will house prices (again) in the UK. Even London will get a shock by this outcome.
> 
> *I liken the UK now as an expensive restaurant that most people want to eat in, however, only some people can afford to pay the bill ... But it doesn't stop people starting their meal without the cash to pay for it!
> 
> And that, is why I need to get away from this flaming 'dog eat dog' way of life.


I can assure you if the Tory's win it would be a shock, namely because of that headless chicken, Cameron. Also the property prices in London imho will not drop, reason, massive shortage of housing.


----------



## Roy C

mrypg9 said:


> You can look at your decision to move to Spain as a financial decision primarily or a change of lifestyle decision or, if you are lucky, both.
> Waiting for the 'right' time to buy while you sit in the gloomy winter of Barnsley or wherever when you do in fact have the means to fund a very enjoyable retirement in Spain, as long as you live within your means, wouldn't appeal to me.
> How many thousands of euros is quality of life in retirement worth? That of course is a very personal decision.
> *One day in September we were walking the dog when my partner said we should pack up the business and move to Prague to live (we have friends there, I'd visited for decades). Two weeks later, in early October, we flew to Prague. One day later our friend had found us a place to live.
> On December 19th at around 1.35p.m. we lsoared above London and left the UK for good, with all our goods and chattels chundering across Europe somewhere below us in the removal truck.
> As I said above, we sold everything as quickly as possible to have no encumbrances whatsoever.
> 
> I cannot describe the sheer delight and enjoyment of that first year in Prague. Literally beyond price.
> 
> What we did wouldn't suit everyone, true and we did make sure that we would have enough resources to enable us to survive financial shocks, of which we had a couple, the first being a huge drop in the Koruna/£ exchange rate, the second ditto with the £/euro rate when we moved to Spain three years later.
> 
> But you never know what's ahead of you, whether it be economic or personal/health issues. If we had waited and held out for a 'better' price for our properties we could have been waiting for years and getting an even lower price. Either of us could have fallen under a bus or developed serious health problems.
> 
> So whilst I disagree strongly with those who say Life's too short, go for it' I equally frown on the excessively cautious. Money might make the world go round but it can't buy you happiness. Two trite clichés...take your pick[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Carpe diem......................
> 
> Great post!


----------



## davexf

Pesky Wesky said:


> What is it about a toilet seat being up that is offensive?:noidea:
> A few years ago a very good friend of mine was at our house and after using the toilet remarked that the seat had been up and that was a "punishable offence" in her house.
> It had never occured to me before then that people might have opinions about toilet seats, so what is it???
> 
> Can I have the prize for taking a thread most off topic ever ?


Hola 

Seat up? PLEASE put the LID down also not just the seat - Ladies please note. 

Davexf


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## Pazcat

Pesky Wesky said:


> What is it about a toilet seat being up that is offensive?:noidea:
> A few years ago a very good friend of mine was at our house and after using the toilet remarked that the seat had been up and that was a "punishable offence" in her house.
> It had never occured to me before then that people might have opinions about toilet seats, so what is it???
> 
> Can I have the prize for taking a thread most off topic ever ?


Totally agree with the bafflement, worse still is putting the bog roll on the hanger the wrong way around.
Who knew there was a correct way?
And it varies depending on whose place you are at.

Ahh, shouldn't judge. I'm a bit OCD in how the dishwasher is stacked which I found out how much that bugged me when my Mum came for a visit.
Even still it wasn't enough for me to actually say anything.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> But you never know what's ahead of you, whether it be economic or personal/health issues. If we had waited and held out for a 'better' price for our properties we could have been waiting for years and getting an even lower price. Either of us could have fallen under a bus or developed serious health problems.
> 
> So whilst I disagree strongly with those who say Life's too short, go for it' I equally frown on the excessively cautious. Money might make the world go round but it can't buy you happiness. Two trite clichés...take your pick


Very true. If I'd waited, I would get less for my house in the UK today than I did in 2006 - going by the actual Land Registry sale prices for houses in the same road.

After I bought it in 2003, the value (on paper) of my house here went up quite a lot over the next 3\4 years - at least I know somebody bought a slightly smaller one a few doors away for 60% more than I'd paid. Now, of course, it's gone back down again. Doesn't really matter to me as I'm not trying to sell, and if I was I'd probably be looking to buy somewhere else around here so the price of whatever property I was looking at would be lower too.

I certainly wouldn't be trying to ask silly money for it if I was trying to sell. I realised yesterday that I know somebody who has a house up for sale in the same area as, and exactly the same size in sqm, as the one I showed as an example earlier in the thread, which is on at €82,000. The other house has also been fully reformed, but has a very awkward internal layout - from the front door you walk straight into what is the spare bedroom where the only wardrobe space is, the small master bedroom is off that so if the spare room is occupied anyone has to walk through it to get to the bathroom or liiving room, it only has one bathroom unlike the other house and that one is next to the kitchen area of the open plan lounge\dining\living room. Both houses have very nice views from their respective terraces - but the badly laid out one is for sale at €124,000. At 50% cheaper, I think I know which will sell first. Do people not look around to see what else is on the market and for how much when they are thinking of selling, or do they just delude themselves that their house is so much nicer than all the others?


----------



## Roy C

Lolito said:


> I think Extranjero's villa is far too expensive. I don't know the area, but 'villas' exactly like that, around here you can get them for 130,000 o even less.
> 
> There is a row of chalets/villas near the beach, all exactly the same, and there are 4 or 5 up for sale, with totally different asking prices, weird!


What is it like around Oliva; is there a reason why it is extremely cheap, crime?


----------



## fcexpat

Pesky Wesky said:


> What is it about a toilet seat being up that is offensive?:noidea:
> A few years ago a very good friend of mine was at our house and after using the toilet remarked that the seat had been up and that was a "punishable offence" in her house.
> It had never occured to me before then that people might have opinions about toilet seats, so what is it???
> 
> Can I have the prize for taking a thread most off topic ever ?


You most certainly can ! I have the same problem with my OH and my answer is "why don't you put the lid up ready for me after you've finished":boxing:


----------



## extranjero

It's pretty obvious why you shouldn't leave a toilet seat up, isn't it?


----------



## Isobella

If anyone's house is less now (UK ) than in 2006 you must admit you are in a minority. Anyone who bought in Spain in 2006 must have lost big time if they need to sell.


----------



## HeatherH

Isobella said:


> If anyone's house is less now (UK ) than in 2006 you must admit you are in a minority. Anyone who bought in Spain in 2006 must have lost big time if they need to sell.


We bought in 2000 and we have lost big time in the asking price and still cannot sell.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> If anyone's house is less now (UK ) than in 2006 you must admit you are in a minority. Anyone who bought in Spain in 2006 must have lost big time if they need to sell.


A minority? Maybe so, but it's that old North-South divide again, and it's not my imagination, either:-
House prices since 2008: best and worst regions - Telegraph


----------



## mrypg9

The house we rent is big, spacious, stands in large gardens but like its occupants, is beginning to show signs of wear and tear. I'm told that ten years ago it might have fetched nearly a milion euros but I doubt the owner would get 300k€ for it.
Anyone buying it would probably need to spend almost as much again as there are worrying signs of serious structural damage and bathrooms and kitchen need a complete refit.
The large back garden is basically a field so a lot of landscaping needs to be done. Plumbing and electrics need attention too. The upstairs bathroom has a very spacious jacuzzi, space enough for two or more to frolic.
But alas the water pressure is so low that by the time it's full the water is stone cold as we found the first night we moved in and were looking forward to relaxing in the bubbles with a glass of cava.
We're not too bothered as we like the area and the neighbours and anyway we're considering moving in a couple of years.
But as the house stands now the owner will take a big hit when or if he sells.


----------



## larryzx

HeatherH said:


> We bought in 2000 and we have lost big time in the asking price and still cannot sell.


I know I am lucky. I bought a new penthouse (atico) in 2002 a few months before completion, and would expect to make a reasonable profit if I sold today, not that I have any intention of doing so, having found the perfect home in a perfect place.


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> What is it about a toilet seat being up that is offensive?:noidea:
> A few years ago a very good friend of mine was at our house and after using the toilet remarked that the seat had been up and that was a "punishable offence" in her house.
> It had never occured to me before then that people might have opinions about toilet seats, so what is it???
> 
> Can I have the prize for taking a thread most off topic ever ?


I'm not that bothered about toilet seats being left up in general, but if an estate agent is taking photos of a house that they are trying to sell (and charge the seller a very large commision) they should at least put the toilet seat down when taking a photo of the bathroom. And in Spain they never do, in fact the vast majority of agents make no effort whatsoever to present the property. Often taking dimly lit photos of untidy rooms with low resolution mobile phone camaras.


----------



## DaveandLiz

In last week's Spanish property news, several headlines focussed on the evolution of house prices in Spain.

Prices in major cities have bottomed out according to two of the sources, and analysts are seeing a softening in the decrease of average real estate values.

Results found in official reports, such as from Eurostat, the EU's statistical office, reveal that housing prices rose slightly towards the middle of the year. Yet more figures from Spain's network of notary offices, indicate a drop in prices in August, but with sales on the rise.

With such a capricious set of results, the differing criteria used to calculate house price variations is mostly to blame. House price indexes can be based on asking prices or valuations, as well as recorded transaction prices from either before, during or after the summer.

Looking at all the results and speaking with estate agents, we mostly see that asking prices are close to a low point but that the properties being sold are still being stimulated by owners offering better deals than the competition - a buyer's market.


----------



## Isobella

According to official stats property sales were well down July/Aug


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> I'm not that bothered about toilet seats being left up in general, but if an estate agent is taking photos of a house that they are trying to sell (and charge the seller a very large commision) they should at least put the toilet seat down when taking a photo of the bathroom.


I take note if I should ever want to put my house on the market, but why?

Is it considered unhygienic, unaesthetic, bad manners? 

What is the toilet seat problem?????????????


----------



## larryzx

DaveandLiz said:


> In last week's Spanish property news, several headlines focussed on the evolution of house prices in Spain.
> 
> Prices in major cities have bottomed out according to two of the sources, and analysts are seeing a softening in the decrease of average real estate values.
> 
> Results found in official reports, such as from Eurostat, the EU's statistical office, reveal that housing prices rose slightly towards the middle of the year. Yet more figures from Spain's network of notary offices, indicate a drop in prices in August, but with sales on the rise.
> 
> With such a capricious set of results, the differing criteria used to calculate house price variations is mostly to blame. House price indexes can be based on asking prices or valuations, as well as recorded transaction prices from either before, during or after the summer.
> 
> Looking at all the results and speaking with estate agents, we mostly see that asking prices are close to a low point but that the properties being sold are still being stimulated by owners offering better deals than the competition - a buyer's market.



Or in plain English, I think that means, nothing has actually changed for the better The market is still probably going down, as sales are not increasing on anything like a level which means anything. No one can say when the bottom has been reached until there is *significant improvement*. 
i,e, all we have now is 'estate agents speak'


----------



## Pazcat

Chopera said:


> I'm not that bothered about toilet seats being left up in general, but if an estate agent is taking photos of a house that they are trying to sell (and charge the seller a very large commision) they should at least put the toilet seat down when taking a photo of the bathroom. And in Spain they never do, in fact the vast majority of agents make no effort whatsoever to present the property. Often taking dimly lit photos of untidy rooms with low resolution mobile phone camaras.


Photos can be absolutely shocking on websites.
I wonder how many properties we ignored just because the cover picture on the listing was of some random doorway, bathroom or staircase. Frankly even if it showed a bedroom or lounge area I would rarely open the link.
What I wanted to see is the outside and not the in, that's what draws me in. A nice frontal view of the property or one even showing off the yard/pool/view/etc.

The other thing that I think would help and I can understand why some sellers don't want to give this information out but I think it is important is to give the location of the property. If I can't find on google maps then it goes on the waste pile unless it is special.
Even the ones that give a rough location we spent ages locating the properties before deciding whether to visit them or not.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

larryzx said:


> Or in plain English, I think that means, nothing has actually changed for the better The market is still probably going down, as sales are not increasing on anything like a level which means anything. No one can say when the bottom has been reached until there is *significant improvement*.
> i,e, all we have now is 'estate agents speak'


More like "politician speak"
The government is deperate to sell us the idea that the recession is over, that there are jobs and that houses are selling. 
And you know what - it just isn't true


----------



## Chopera

Pazcat said:


> Photos can be absolutely shocking on websites.
> I wonder how many properties we ignored just because the cover picture on the listing was of some random doorway, bathroom or staircase. Frankly even if it showed a bedroom or lounge area I would rarely open the link.
> What I wanted to see is the outside and not the in, that's what draws me in. A nice frontal view of the property or one even showing off the yard/pool/view/etc.
> 
> The other thing that I think would help and I can understand why some sellers don't want to give this information out but I think it is important is to give the location of the property. If I can't find on google maps then it goes on the waste pile unless it is special.
> Even the ones that give a rough location we spent ages locating the properties before deciding whether to visit them or not.


Private sellers usually do give the address but estate agents don't because that would allow potential buyers to track down the seller and deal directly with them, therefore cutting out the agent's commision. It's also why you'll usually be asked to leave your DNI/NIE number with an agent when viewing a property. If the property subsequently sells privately the agent can check if you went and bought the property "behind their backs"


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> Private sellers usually do give the address but estate agents don't because that would allow potential buyers to track down the seller and deal directly with them, therefore cutting out the agent's commision. It's also why you'll usually be asked to leave your DNI/NIE number with an agent when viewing a property. *If the property subsequently sells privately the agent can check if you went and bought the property "behind their backs*"


Some friends of mine were taken to court about this, and even though this was not the case they ended up paying something because for some reason they couldn't prove otherwise...


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> I take note if I should ever want to put my house on the market, but why?
> 
> Is it considered unhygienic, unaesthetic, bad manners?
> 
> What is the toilet seat problem?????????????


When it comes to selling property its aesthetics mainly. Another thing that looks bad on property photos are fridge magnets - it may seem trivial but it doesn't take a second to remove them before taking a photo of the kitchen.


----------



## larryzx

Chopera said:


> Private sellers usually do give the address but estate agents don't because that would allow potential buyers to track down the seller and deal directly with them, therefore cutting out the agent's commision. It's also why you'll usually be asked to leave your DNI/NIE number with an agent when viewing a property. If the property subsequently sells privately the agent can check if you went and bought the property "behind their backs"


Probably one of the best ways to find a buyer is to put a FOR SALE sign on your house. 

I have always driven around the area where I was looking for a property.


----------



## Pazcat

> It's also why you'll usually be asked to leave your DNI/NIE number with an agent when viewing a property. If the property subsequently sells privately the agent can check if you went and bought the property "behind their backs"


We never was asked that, maybe once but all we did was put the date and say we had seen the property that day.
I would be very careful about signing anything an agent gives you on a viewing. There was a case on the radio the other day of a lady who did just that but in the fine print in Spanish said if she brought the house elsewhere she would be up for a 6K payout to the original agent. It was in one of the papers too but not sure which one.
Personally I would never give that info out as they have no right to it.



> Private sellers usually do give the address but estate agents don't because that would allow potential buyers to track down the seller and deal directly with them, therefore cutting out the agent's commision.


That is possible, I figured it is because they know what they are selling is as illegal as hell and more so that people are stupid and will buy it anyway with a sack full of cash. It is the only explanation for their behaviour.
I have no idea how they can lie about every aspect of a property and expect it to sell, why waste everyones time.


----------



## Pazcat

Found it.

Costa News - Buyers beware

It'd be nice to read the full article though.


----------



## Chopera

Pazcat said:


> We never was asked that, maybe once but all we did was put the date and say we had seen the property that day.
> I would be very careful about signing anything an agent gives you on a viewing. There was a case on the radio the other day of a lady who did just that but in the fine print in Spanish said if she brought the house elsewhere she would be up for a 6K payout to the original agent. It was in one of the papers too but not sure which one.
> Personally I would never give that info out as they have no right to it.
> 
> ...


They might not ask foreign buyers for id because they are less likely to track down the seller and deal with them directly. In Madrid we always get asked, and I give my NIE. My wife won't give her DNI for the same reaons you mentioned.


----------



## Pazcat

Well we are residents so it's down to whatever presumptions they make I guess. 
I still wouldn't give them any info though.


----------



## Chopera

larryzx said:


> Probably one of the best ways to find a buyer is to put a FOR SALE sign on your house.
> 
> I have always driven around the area where I was looking for a property.


That and advertising on Idealista and Fotocasa have worked for us in the past. It's all free.


----------



## Madliz

Toilet seats up? That's nothing! Here are some of the best photos: 

asÃ* no vas a vender tu casa: 26 imÃ¡genes de anuncios inmobiliarios que espantarÃ*an a cualquier comprador (fotos) â€” idealista.com/news

As far as property listings go, since I am :fingerscrossed: soon to be visiting properties, after several years of merely looking at property porn, I discount any place that doesn't show the outside. There must be a reason! The outside view tells you so much - proximity of neighbours, pylons looming over the garden or even a factory next door. If the house is attractive, you can bet a photo would have been included.


----------



## DaveandLiz

Great pics......................LOL


Dave


----------



## Chopera

BTW I doubt it affects anyone on here, but those who do sell their property at a profit after this year might be in for a nasty surprise since Hacienda is removing a taper when calculating the plusvalia. Anyone selling a property they've had for decades might find themselves paying tens of thousands more in plusvalia. If you are looking to buy a property that looks to have been owned by the same person for many years you might find that they are very willing to negotiate the price if you buy the property this year.


----------



## HeatherH

Madliz said:


> Toilet seats up? That's nothing! Here are some of the best photos:
> 
> asÃ* no vas a vender tu casa: 26 imÃ¡genes de anuncios inmobiliarios que espantarÃ*an a cualquier comprador (fotos) â€” idealista.com/news
> 
> As far as property listings go, since I am :fingerscrossed: soon to be visiting properties, after several years of merely looking at property porn, I discount any place that doesn't show the outside. There must be a reason! The outside view tells you so much - proximity of neighbours, pylons looming over the garden or even a factory next door. If the house is attractive, you can bet a photo would have been included.


I agree. Living in Spain means a lot of outdoor living so we showed lots of outdoor photos of our land, even the ploughman who comes to plough with his mules and hand plough. The wild flowers and views from all the 360 degree terraces . Some of the inside and yes the toilet seat was down. Maybe too much though as we have to travel 8kms to the nearest shop and white village, so living in Spain for some means the Costas or the cities. 
We just cannot sell, not even the old way with the bag of black money and a hand shake.
So in 6 weeks time we will have to lock it up and leave it unless a miracle happens in the meantime.


----------



## Chopera

Madliz said:


> Toilet seats up? That's nothing! Here are some of the best photos:
> 
> asÃ* no vas a vender tu casa: 26 imÃ¡genes de anuncios inmobiliarios que espantarÃ*an a cualquier comprador (fotos) â€” idealista.com/news
> 
> As far as property listings go, since I am :fingerscrossed: soon to be visiting properties, after several years of merely looking at property porn, I discount any place that doesn't show the outside. There must be a reason! The outside view tells you so much - proximity of neighbours, pylons looming over the garden or even a factory next door. If the house is attractive, you can bet a photo would have been included.


There was one famous photo a few years ago where the owner had taken the photos of their flat while being completely naked, and you could see the "evidence" in a mirror in one of the photos.


----------



## DaveandLiz

We are in the process of looking for a property and I must admit most of the pics from estate agent sites are very poor and there is always something missing , ie the view or outside etc etc.

Our house in the UK is up for sale with a offer from the second viewer, and the pics of our place make it look better than it is.

Maybe the estate agents in Spain could take a lession from the UK agents though it pains me to say so

Dave


----------



## caromac

Can anyone tell me whether it is better for the 'cadastral' value to be low or high. It just that I heard that someone (despite having negotiated a very low price for a property) ended up with a very large tax bill based on the apparently 'higher' perceived value. Does this sound right?


----------



## larryzx

caromac said:


> Can anyone tell me whether it is better for the 'cadastral' value to be low or high. It just that I heard that someone (despite having negotiated a very low price for a property) ended up with a very large tax bill based on the apparently 'higher' perceived value. Does this sound right?


I think you mean the declared value i.e. the price which you say the property is being sold for. In the past it was often declared lower as sales taxes are based on it. The Catastral Value is in effect the rateable value on which the rates (IBI) etc is based. It cannot be adjusted, it is a fixed amount. Hacienda, using a formula, also use it to determine what 'they say' the property is worth on the market. That can result in a value much higher than the real market value.


----------



## Chopera

caromac said:


> Can anyone tell me whether it is better for the 'cadastral' value to be low or high. It just that I heard that someone (despite having negotiated a very low price for a property) ended up with a very large tax bill based on the apparently 'higher' perceived value. Does this sound right?


Yes that sounds right. It takes people by surprise but some councils calculate the transaction tax based on a multiple of the cadastral value rather than whatever is actually paid for the house. People think that the transaction tax is based on say 8% on the price they pay, and then find out it's based on some price the council has made up. The councils were heavily criticised for not lowering cadastral values when prices started coming down and I'm not sure if they have adjusted them now.


----------



## extranjero

Chopera said:


> BTW I doubt it affects anyone on here, but those who do sell their property at a profit after this year might be in for a nasty surprise since Hacienda is removing a taper when calculating the plusvalia. Anyone selling a property they've had for decades might find themselves paying tens of thousands more in plusvalia. If you are looking to buy a property that looks to have been owned by the same person for many years you might find that they are very willing to negotiate the price if you buy the property this year.


Can you explain more about the plus valia- how is it worked out?
As if sellers didn't have enough to shell out when selling a house.
Plus valia seems to be cgt by another name.
Even when you sell your property, it seems that 20-30 k euros vanishes before you get the miserly amount left to buy another!


----------



## larryzx

extranjero said:


> Can you explain more about the plus valia- how is it worked out?
> As if sellers didn't have enough to shell out when selling a house.
> Plus valia seems to be cgt by another name.
> Even when you sell your property, it seems that 20-30 k euros vanishes before you get the miserly amount left to buy another!


Capital Gains Tax is the charge made on the gain which one has made between buying and selling. I have always been able to roll it over into my next property, so have never paid any. (I believe that is only available to tax residents, although that might have changed). A tax resident who has owned a property as their principle home for 3 or more years, and who is 65 or over is (or at least was ? ) exempt from any capital gains tax.

Plus Valir is a local authority tax on the increased value of the land upon which the property is built, or a percentage in the case of multi floor apartments. It is normally paid by the seller, unless there has been an alternative arrangement. In cases when I have sold the buyers have agreed to pay it. No one is exempt.


----------



## extranjero

larryzx said:


> Capital Gains Tax is the charge made on the gain which one has made between buying and selling
> 
> Plus Valir is the local authority tax on the increased value of the land upon which the property is built, or a percentage in the case of multi floor apartments. It is normally paid by the seller, unless there has been an alternative arrangement. In cases when I have sold the buyers have agreed to pay it.


Why would any buyer agree to pay this added cost, when the norm is for the seller to pay?
I can't see a buyer wanting to! What's in it for them?


----------



## extranjero

larryzx said:


> Capital Gains Tax is the charge made on the gain which one has made between buying and selling
> 
> Plus Valir is the local authority tax on the increased value of the land upon which the property is built, or a percentage in the case of multi floor apartments. It is normally paid by the seller, unless there has been an alternative arrangement. In cases when I have sold the buyers have agreed to pay it.


Why would any buyer agree to pay this added cost, when the norm is for the seller to pay?
I can't see a buyer wanting to! What's in it for them?


----------



## larryzx

extranjero said:


> Why would any buyer agree to pay this added cost, when the norm is for the seller to pay?
> I can't see a buyer wanting to! What's in it for them?


Why would a buyer agree to pay a percentage of IBI when they buy, when it is legally the responsibility of the person who owns the property on 1st January ? It what one agrees, plain and simple. In my case if the buyers had not agreed to pay, I would have probably charged more for the property, Swings and Roundabouts.


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## Chopera

Here's a description of plusvalia:

The Plusvalia Property Tax in Spain - Spanish Property Insight

("The objective is to tax the increase in the value of the land on which the property stands, some of which is due to improvements to the area carried out by the local government and the community at large." - hmmm - I thought IBI paid for that already - so really it is a form of CGT)

Here's a description (in Spanish) of how it might affect sellers:

Calcule el ‘hachazo’ fiscal que le espera si vende su casa antigua en 2015 | Economía | Cinco Días


----------



## extranjero

larryzx said:


> Why would a buyer agree to pay a percentage of IBI when they buy, when it is legally the responsibility of the person who owns the property on 1st January ? It what one agrees, plain and simple. In my case if the buyers had not agreed to pay, I would have probably charged more for the property, Swings and Roundabouts.


But the buyers had already agreed to buy it.
You couldn't alter the price afterwards had they said they would not pay it!


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## Chopera

extranjero said:


> Why would any buyer agree to pay this added cost, when the norm is for the seller to pay?
> I can't see a buyer wanting to! What's in it for them?


As the link I posted above mentions, during the boom the sellers usually got the buyers to pay it because the market was in their favour.


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## larryzx

extranjero said:


> But the buyers had already agreed to buy it.
> You couldn't alter the price afterwards had they said they would not pay it!


And when they signed the Compraventa, and paid the 10% non-refundable deposit, they agreed to it.


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## extranjero

Chopera said:


> Here's a description of plusvalia:
> 
> The Plusvalia Property Tax in Spain - Spanish Property Insight
> 
> ("The objective is to tax the increase in the value of the land on which the property stands, some of which is due to improvements to the area carried out by the local government and the community at large." - hmmm - I thought IBI paid for that already - so really it is a form of CGT)
> 
> Here's a description (in Spanish) of how it might affect sellers:
> 
> Calcule el â€˜hachazoâ€™ fiscal que le espera si vende su casa antigua en 2015 | EconomÃ*a | Cinco DÃ*as


I've tried that calculator tool- it will not accept the date of purchase, comes up as invalid every time!


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## larryzx

extranjero said:


> I've tried that calculator tool- it will not accept the date of purchase, comes up as invalid every time!


If you really want to know ask your Town Hall, they can tell you within seconds


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## Chopera

extranjero said:


> I've tried that calculator tool- it will not accept the date of purchase, comes up as invalid every time!


I tried "01/01/1990" and "01/01/2015" as an example and it worked ok (I was using chrome)


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## extranjero

1 managed it- there's a BIG difference between what I would pay now and in 2015!
Trouble is, I and many others are not going to get a sale pre 2015.


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## Expatliving

DaveandLiz said:


> In last week's Spanish property news, several headlines focussed on the evolution of house prices in Spain.
> 
> Prices in major cities have bottomed out according to two of the sources, and analysts are seeing a softening in the decrease of average real estate values.
> 
> Results found in official reports, such as from Eurostat, the EU's statistical office, reveal that housing prices rose slightly towards the middle of the year. Yet more figures from Spain's network of notary offices, indicate a drop in prices in August, but with sales on the rise.
> 
> With such a capricious set of results, the differing criteria used to calculate house price variations is mostly to blame. House price indexes can be based on asking prices or valuations, as well as recorded transaction prices from either before, during or after the summer.
> 
> Looking at all the results and speaking with estate agents, we mostly see that asking prices are close to a low point but that the properties being sold are still being stimulated by owners offering better deals than the competition - a buyer's market.


Not wishing to add to anybody's woes ... But if the Tory party win a majority in next May's (2015) UK election there could be some very worried people (including me!) with regard to the impact on a in/out EU vote? That vote is scheduled to happen by the end of 2017 latest.

Who knows how the Spanish authorities will deal with UK people wishing to live in their country, will they expect Brits to come up with the 500,000 euro visa qualification? That would have a massive impact on property sales in Spain.

The general feeling in the UK is moving towards 'isolation' - a bit like the United States really! - Things will be changing quite some over the next two-three years, I can see a turbulent time for potential Spanish home buyers (that's me again!!) if the UK moves out of EU membership ...


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## larryzx

Expatliving said:


> Not wishing to add to anybody's woes ... But if the Tory party win a majority in next May's (2015) UK election there could be some very worried people (including me!) with regard to the impact on a in/out EU vote? That vote is scheduled to happen by the end of 2017 latest.
> 
> Who knows how the Spanish authorities will deal with UK people wishing to live in their country, will they expect Brits to come up with the 500,000 euro visa qualification? That would have a massive impact on property sales in Spain.
> 
> The general feeling in the UK is moving towards 'isolation' - a bit like the United States really! - Things will be changing quite some over the next two-three years, I can see a turbulent time for potential Spanish home buyers (that's me again!!) if the UK moves out of EU membership ...


UK will not vote to leave. 


If they did then Spain would make some rule to allow things to stay as they are.

As it happens, I have dual nationality, UK and Irish, so I am aright Paddy. In fact I am just on the point of renouncing my UK nationality. If I am not British, I can take my non EU wife to UK without any visa etc. As British, even dual nationality, I cannot.


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## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> Yes that sounds right. It takes people by surprise but some councils calculate the transaction tax based on a multiple of the cadastral value rather than whatever is actually paid for the house. People think that the transaction tax is based on say 8% on the price they pay, and then find out it's based on some price the council has made up. The councils were heavily criticised for not lowering cadastral values when prices started coming down and I'm not sure if they have adjusted them now.


You don't pay transaction tax to the Ayuntamiento, though, do you? You pay it to Hacienda.

Hacienda use either the declared purchase price or the catastral value x municipal multiplier, whichever results in the higher value - so whichever it is, they never lose!


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## Lynn R

larryzx said:


> Plus Valir is a local authority tax on the increased value of the land upon which the property is built, or a percentage in the case of multi floor apartments. It is normally paid by the seller, unless there has been an alternative arrangement. In cases when I have sold the buyers have agreed to pay it. No one is exempt.


When I was buying in 2003. the vendors' estate agents tried to get me to sign a pre-sales contract which included a clause that I would pay the plus valia. Luckily the property finding service I used read through it and told them to take it out as that was the vendors' responsibility, because at that stage I would have been none the wiser and agreed to it without understanding that.


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## extranjero

If plus valia is calculated on the price of land, why did the calculator tool want the price of the property when bought and sold, as the difference is what cgt is calculated on?
Cholera,I think you have got your plus valia mixed up with your cgt!


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## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> They might not ask foreign buyers for id because they are less likely to track down the seller and deal with them directly. In Madrid we always get asked, and I give my NIE. My wife won't give her DNI for the same reaons you mentioned.


Spanish people don't seem to have any qualms about putting their DNI on any bit of paper that's put in front of them, in my experience.


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## larryzx

extranjero said:


> If plus valia is calculated on the price of land, why did the calculator tool want the price of the property when bought and sold, as the difference is what cgt is calculated on?


A special reference should be made to a type of local or municipal capital gains tax on property in Spain – known as the Plusvalía.

Chopera's ref:- The Plusvalia Property Tax in Spain - Spanish Property Insight

_What is the plusvalia tax in Spain?

The plusvalía is a local (municipal) tax charged by the town hall on properties when they are sold. It is calculated on the rateable value of property and the number of years that have passed since the property was last changed hands. *The objective is to tax the increase in the value of the land on which the property stands,* some of which is due to improvements to the area carried out by the local government and the community at large.

The base for this tax is the valor catastral (an administrative value that is usually lower than the market value, sometimes considerably so) of the property. The amount due in tax will depend on how long the seller has owned the property: the longer the period, the higher the amount of tax._


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## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> When it comes to selling property its aesthetics mainly. Another thing that looks bad on property photos are fridge magnets - it may seem trivial but it doesn't take a second to remove them before taking a photo of the kitchen.


Thank you, a reply at last.

I can see it might look "nicer" with the toilet seat down and without fridge magnets but I would suggest if that swung the deal one way or the other, or influenced people about whether they would go to see a property or not ,then they are not very serious buyers. I mean, you have to imagine the property without the owners furniture, with your furniture and often with or without some walls/ doors/ windows.
What's a toilet seat and a few magnets?
Pesonally I try to touch toilet seats as little as possible !


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## Chopera

To try to clear up a few questions:

Plusvalia is like CGT but plusvalia is paid to the regional councils whereas CGT is paid to central government. However while the Plusvalia rate is set by central government, the increase in the value of the land that the rate is applied to is estimated by the regional council (usually using the catastral value). So plusvalia is nominally based on an estimated increase in the value of the land whereas CGT is nominally based on an increase in the value of the property. I understand CGT is not paid if you buy another residential property or are over 65. Plusvalia is always paid on resales (it should be paid by the seller, but often it is the buyer).

Transfer tax on resale property (ITP) is also paid to the regional councils ("Hacienda" can refer to either the central or local tax collector) but, unlike plusvalia, the rate is set by the local council. However as with plusvalia, it is based on another estimated value of the property/land (known as "valor minimo fiscal" which is sometimes based on the catastral value as well - it depends on the region). ITP is paid by the buyer.

On new properties you do not pay ITP but you pay IVA (VAT) instead. This is set by the central government (currently 10%) and goes to the central government. IVA is paid by the buyer.

There are other potential taxes as well, but I think these are the main ones.


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## extranjero

I think some may have been worried by Chopera's earlier post, which appeared to refer to plus valia, but in fact applied to cgt.
There are no recent changes to plus valia.
In any case, plus valia is just another greedy tax, another burden for the already burdened seller!


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## Chopera

extranjero said:


> I think some may have been worried by Chopera's earlier post, which appeared to refer to plus valia, but in fact applied to cgt.
> There are no recent changes to plus valia.
> In any case, plus valia is just another greedy tax, another burden for the already burdened seller!


There _are _going to be changes to the way they calculate plusvalia, as indicated in the article I posted earlier:

Calcule el ‘hachazo’ fiscal que le espera si vende su casa antigua en 2015 | Economía | Cinco Días

You looked at this article, so you should have seen the word "plusvalia" mentioned in it 18 times, so I don't understand why you are now saying that there aren't any changes to plusvalia? 

If you don't like that article here's another one:

13 semanas para comprar barato: mejor vender en 2014 para que Hacienda se lleve menos - 20minutos.es

(As far as I know there are going to be no changes to CGT at all)


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## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> There _are _going to be changes to the way they calculate plusvalia, as indicated in the article I posted earlier:
> 
> Calcule el â€˜hachazoâ€™ fiscal que le espera si vende su casa antigua en 2015 | EconomÃ*a | Cinco DÃ*as
> 
> You looked at this article, so you should have seen the word "plusvalia" mentioned in it 18 times, so I don't understand why you are now saying that there aren't any changes to plusvalia?
> 
> If you don't like that article here's another one:
> 
> 13 semanas para comprar barato: mejor vender en 2014 para que Hacienda se lleve menos - 20minutos.es
> 
> (As far as I know there are going to be no changes to CGT at all)


I'm sorry, Chopera, but Extranjero is right. The articles you posted refer to plusvalias which is a general term referring to gains in value, not the Plus Valia tax payable at local level on increases in land value. It is Capital Gains Tax which is changing - here is a link to an article from my own lawyers regarding this:-

Capital Gains Tax Increase January 2015 | De Cotta Law


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## larryzx

Chopera said:


> There _are _going to be changes to the way they calculate plusvalia, as indicated in the article I posted earlier:
> 
> Calcule el â€˜hachazoâ€™ fiscal que le espera si vende su casa antigua en 2015 | EconomÃ*a | Cinco DÃ*as
> 
> You looked at this article, so you should have seen the word "plusvalia" mentioned in it 18 times, so I don't understand why you are now saying that there aren't any changes to plusvalia?


Your article refers to plus valia in relation to Income Tax 

Not to the plus valia tax charged by the municipality on the increased value of the land upon which the property is built.


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## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> I'm sorry, Chopera, but Extranjero is right. The articles you posted refer to plusvalias which is a general term referring to gains in value, not the Plus Valia tax payable at local level on increases in land value. It is Capital Gains Tax which is changing - here is a link to an article from my own lawyers regarding this:-
> 
> Capital Gains Tax Increase January 2015 | De Cotta Law


You're right - the article I posted mentions it applies to other assets as well in the very last paragraph, while the rest of the article only talks about property, so it must be referring to CGT.


> Los cambios normativos también afectan a la venta de acciones o el rescate de fondos de inversión....


Apologies to extranjero for my sharp reply


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## extranjero

Chopera said:


> You're right - the article I posted mentions it applies to other assets as well in the very last paragraph, while the rest of the article only talks about property, so it must be referring to CGT.
> 
> Apologies to extranjero for my sharp reply


That's ok- tax in Spain is taxing at the best of times!


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