# Licenses required?



## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

Hi, have a property in an urbanization north of Malaga (single house with large plot), and I'm contemplating tiling a 100 m2 portion of the graveled terrace. Also thinking of installing 6 indoor and 2 outdoor AC units. 

Anyone know if the above requires licenses?


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## Simply Simon (Jan 18, 2019)

IKnowNothing said:


> Hi, have a property in an urbanization north of Malaga (single house with large plot), and I'm contemplating tiling a 100 m2 portion of the graveled terrace. Also thinking of installing 6 indoor and 2 outdoor AC units.
> 
> Anyone know if the above requires licenses?


We were advised that almost everything requires permission from the Town Hall, even interior painting, even just repainting the same colour inside! This is probably true, but I wonder how many people actually get the required permissions? I'd ask the Town Hall - for a 'friend', what is involved and how much it would cost.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Simply Simon said:


> We were advised that almost everything requires permission from the Town Hall, even interior painting, even just repainting the same colour inside! This is probably true, but I wonder how many people actually get the required permissions? I'd ask the Town Hall - for a 'friend', what is involved and how much it would cost.


It's generally around 4% of the cost of the job. If you don't have an estimate for the work, they have pricing structures for most things.


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## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

Ok, seems as licenses will be required then. Sigh. Any ideas on lead time and if there's any risk for non-approval?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

If you have confidence in the people you are contracting to do the job, ask them to arrange the licences for you. They will know exactly who to contact and whether their contacts can arrange the matter. In my experience, usually, no licences will be necessary.


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

Yeah, Baldi is correct; a fully registered and insured person/company normally always gets the license.

As a rule, it is best to go to the town hall and ask. I say this as they or your neighbors will see and the small payment will escalate.


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

IKnowNothing said:


> Sigh. Any ideas on lead time and if there's any risk for non-approval?


Why a sigh? Would you even want to evade a small payment ( the law ) and a opportunity to use or improve your Spanish with a visit to the town hall?


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## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

The sigh was related to possible delays and complications, not to fees or lingo problems. Also to the fact I find it somewhat difficult to understand the real need for a license in these cases. 

The sigh might also have to do with me finding out - today, actually - that I need a license to prune 5-6 of my eucalyptus trees. Ah, this Spanish bureaucracy... 🙂


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

IKnowNothing said:


> Hi, have a property in an urbanization north of Malaga (single house with large plot), and I'm contemplating tiling a 100 m2 portion of the graveled terrace. Also thinking of installing 6 indoor and 2 outdoor AC units.
> 
> Anyone know if the above requires licenses?


 It's highly likely that you will need a licence. Town halls don't really care what you are doing to your property, they just want to get as much money as possible through licences. If it's something external you should definitely find out if a licence is necessary because police do go round checking for this kind of thing from time to time and some narky neighbours will report you if they get fed up. Also in some areas they now use drones to take pictures every so often.
If it's interior I'd think about informing the town hall or not, and certainly not if I was just going to paint for example! But if you live in an area with neighbours (a flat or semi detached property for example) I'd be careful because they might get disturbed because of noise, dirt, parking spaces getting taken up and may report you. It happened to us!
PS. I understand your sigh; another point on the things to do list, more time and more expense!


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

IKnowNothing said:


> The sigh was related to possible delays and complications, not to fees or lingo problems. Also to the fact I find it somewhat difficult to understand the real need for a license in these cases.
> 
> The sigh might also have to do with me finding out - today, actually - that I need a license to prune 5-6 of my eucalyptus trees. Ah, this Spanish bureaucracy... 🙂


Not sure whether your a British Expat or hail from the UK but the same is true in your home country ( if your British ? )
in the form of it requiring Planning permission and abiding by any local authority byelaws that are applicable,
regarding alterations to your property and your land.
So you shouldn't be surprised if you encounter the same sort of thing in Spain.


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

Should I get permission and a licence to cut my garden hedge trees?


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

Nakabandi said:


> Should I get permission and a licence to cut my garden hedge trees?


No, but you will need to register at the town hall to be able to use the garbage dump and if you want to burn ( a the correct times of the year ) you will need a license. €3 on average.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Nakabandi just to add to the above, you must also wear appropriate protective clothing including head gear, I would suggest Stihl 0000 884 0180 Integra Light Helmet Set. Failure to do any of the aforementioned could result in a custodial sentence or worse. :


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Each town hall operates with different rules regarding when a ‘small works licence’ is required 

A friend of mine employed someone to re-tile his kitchen. He knew nothing about requiring a licence but later said he would have assumed the builder would have taken care of that. The police saw the work bring done, demanded the licence, and as there none the owner of the apartment, not the builder, was fined 300 euros

I have enquires whether a licence was needed when I subsequently did work on three properties, they were in separate municipalities. Two town halls required a licence but another, when I did similar work, did not. 

My conclusion is that one needs to ask their town-hall if you want to avoid problems


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

Ovaldo said:


> No, but you will need to register at the town hall to be able to use the garbage dump and if you want to burn ( a the correct times of the year ) you will need a license. €3 on average.


I am registered on the pardon so I assume they know I exist. I use a motor bike crash helmet with goggles when I trim my hedge trees. My metal garden gate is getting a bit rusty, will I need a special licence to use hammerite, and how much does a licence cost and last?


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## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

Williams2 said:


> Not sure whether your a British Expat or hail from the UK but the same is true in your home country ( if your British ? )
> in the form of it requiring Planning permission and abiding by any local authority byelaws that are applicable,
> regarding alterations to your property and your land.
> So you shouldn't be surprised if you encounter the same sort of thing in Spain.


I'm from Northern Europe. And I understand why you think I shouldn't be surprised. I've often reflected over how many people who move to Spain suddenly assume that anything they could possibly think of to do with their properties should be fully legal, and not even require licenses. But frankly, pruning trees? Jeez... In many other countries the trend is to move in the opposite direction, and remove the need for licenses and regulations for minor or moderate work/projects such as building garden sheds, for example. Why not just raise the property taxes slightly instead of having these ridiculous licenses for trivialities? Or simply remove some of the licenses completely?

I know at least one (reasonably) civilized Western European country in which neither terrace tiling, AC installation nor tree pruning would have required licenses. Might be something for the European Union to harmonize some day? Just joking. 

But...ah well...no sense in getting upset here...this is Spain...just go with the flow and accept that you'll have to add weeks or months to any project plan just for obtaining licenses


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

IKnowNothing said:


> But...ah well...no sense in getting upset here...this is Spain...just go with the flow and accept that you'll have to add weeks or months to any project plan just for obtaining licenses


It doesn't necessarily take very long. In 2017 I applied for a licence when we were having our kitchen and bathrooms reformed, and the licence took only 2 weeks to be issued - and that was in August, when I was expecting delays because of staff being on holiday. 

Don't forget that in addition to the fee for the licence, several months after the work is completed you will also get a bill for the tax due on the works carried out. Here it's 4% of the total value, other areas will be different.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Ovaldo said:


> No, but you will need to register at the town hall to be able to use the garbage dump and if you want to burn ( a the correct times of the year ) you will need a license. €3 on average.


All areas are different so making this type of statement is fraught with issues.

Here, we don't need to register to use the Eco Parc, it all goes on our NIE.

Also, we don't need a licence to have a bonfire.


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## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

Hmm...interesting this. Have to admit I'm not fully aware of all the licenses that may come into play when living in Spain. We used a rather well-reputed lawyer and also took help from the bank when buying the house, and we've signed up for some kind of service the lawyer offers regarding tax payments etc, but all these licenses, well I'm beginning to suspect there are licenses I never even dreamed of. 

Is there any list someone would like to share? I've heard of (and in some cases more or less fully understand) Afo/Safo/Lifo/Dafo/whatever-o, LPO/LFO, rental licenses, Licencia de Obra Menor/Mayor, Certificate of No Infraction, and now I've recently been updated on tree pruning licenses too. I've also heard about inspection of gas installations every 5 years. But I'm beginning to wonder if there are others I'm not aware of. Are these just the top of the iceberg? 

Spain's great, they just run things a little differently than some other European countries. From that perspective, and as far as I understand, Spain is a little like Italy, Greece, and so on.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

It really must be stressed that EVERY AYUNTAMIENTO HAS DIFFERENT REGULATIONS - even within the same province. So rather than take advice from people who live somewhere completely different, ask a local councillor or town hall employee.

In my town the custom is not get a permiso for minor works, because it can take up to two years, and just pay the fine if you get found out.


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

Alcalaina said:


> It really must be stressed that EVERY AYUNTAMIENTO HAS DIFFERENT REGULATIONS - even within the same province. So rather than take advice from people who live somewhere completely different, ask a local councillor or town hall employee.
> 
> In my town the custom is not get a permiso for minor works, because it can take up to two years, and just pay the fine if you get found out.


WHAT, 2 years before I can paint my gate.

Is this just a Mafia extortion racket?


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

I thought inspections and/or maintenace of gas installations were required every year , but this might be in France


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Ovaldo said:


> I thought inspections and/or maintenace of gas installations were required every year , but this might be in France


Butane/propane gas installations have to be checked every five years. Piped gas I have no idea, since we don't have it where I live.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Ovaldo said:


> I thought inspections and/or maintenace of gas installations were required every year , but this might be in France


That is indeed in France where, if you don't do it, you potentially void your insurance and do void it if something occurs that is related - that also means you have no cover for related damage to adjoining/nearby buildings.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It really must be stressed that EVERY AYUNTAMIENTO HAS DIFFERENT REGULATIONS - even within the same province. So rather than take advice from people who live somewhere completely different, ask a local councillor or town hall employee.
> 
> In my town the custom is not get a permiso for minor works, because it can take up to two years, and just pay the fine if you get found out.


Just in case anyone missed this...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiaxica said:


> Just in case anyone missed this...


Love it, thanks xabiachica!!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Just to emphasis that point, in our village, if you wanted to do a small job, you just went to the ayuntamiento with a brief description of works, pay the token fee and walk out with a bit of paper. 

The bigger the works the more interested they were re. regulations, the more you pay and the longer you would have to wait.

TBH for many small jobs, painting etc. and internal stuff no one bothered.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Butane/propane gas installations have to be checked every five years. Piped gas I have no idea, since we don't have it where I live.


So, are you saying there is a law for this or do you mean that the installation SHOULD be checked regularly?

If so, by whom? It certainly doesn't have to be Repsol


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> So, are you saying there is a law for this or do you mean that the installation SHOULD be checked regularly?
> 
> If so, by whom? It certainly doesn't have to be Repsol


I’m of the understanding, and maybe I’m wrong as I don’t know for sure. I thought, that if your gas butano contract is with Repsol, they need to review it every five years, they check the connections, ventilation etc and issue a new certificate. Ours is due this coming September, so I am interested in whether I have this right or wrong.,


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

EverHopeful said:


> That is indeed in France where, if you don't do it, you potentially void your insurance and do void it if something occurs that is related - that also means you have no cover for related damage to adjoining/nearby buildings.


What has gas bottles in France got to do with this thread? :help::focus:


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Nakabandi said:


> What has gas bottles in France got to do with this thread? :help::focus:


Read the context, it was a specific reply to an earlier comment from I think Ovaldo, not specifically about gas bottles, about licences.

:focus:


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I have had bottle gas at the several properties I have owned over the past thirty years. I have had contracts at some 
properties but never had any communication from the people I have had contract with regarding periodic inspections 

Of course I have had the scam inspectors a few times but I told them ‘to go away’

However I can imagine that if something serious happened and it transpired periodic inspections had not been carried out, then I suspect police investigations might ensue, and insurance companies might use failure to have inspections as a reason to refuse to pay out.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Megsmum said:


> I’m of the understanding, and maybe I’m wrong as I don’t know for sure. I thought, that if your gas butano contract is with Repsol, they need to review it every five years, they check the connections, ventilation etc and issue a new certificate. Ours is due this coming September, so I am interested in whether I have this right or wrong.,


We get our bottles directly from Repsol ourselves. We don't have and I'm told don't need a contract.

I check the installation myself regularly - ventilation, Carbon Monoxide, regulator, tubing etc.

I have also checked my house insurance and can't find anything stating I need a certificate.

I also wonder what the 'true' facts are.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

snikpoh said:


> We get our bottles directly from Repsol ourselves. We don't have and I'm told don't need a contract.
> 
> I check the installation myself regularly - ventilation, Carbon Monoxide, regulator, tubing etc.
> 
> ...


When moving here many moons ago we were told at the Ayuntamiento that it was a legal requirement nationally to have a contract and mandatory checks every 5 yrs. Many bypass this as you see empty canisters for sale at markets etc. You cannot just pitch up at a garage and buy a full bottle without an empty one to give back
https://moneysaverspain.com/bottled-gas-spain/
https://www.expatforum.com/expats/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=14929160


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## northernlights (Aug 2, 2019)

How does the customer benefit from having a contract from Repsol, i just drive to the local garage and exchange my empty canister for a full one no questions asked.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

northernlights said:


> How does the customer benefit from having a contract from Repsol, i just drive to the local garage and exchange my empty canister for a full one no questions asked.


I would imagine that if you had a fire or one exploded the authorities and insurance Company would first off ask for your contract and date of last inspection. You'd be open to all kinds of "merde" if you couldn't produce one.
Many people and especially the elderly retired don't drive and have the bottles delivered which isn't possible unless you have a contract.
In your case the garage assume that because you have an empty bottle that you indeed do have a contract.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love Karma said:


> Many people and especially the elderly retired don't drive and have the bottles delivered which isn't possible unless you have a contract.
> In your case the garage assume that because you have an empty bottle that you indeed do have a contract.


I don´t know where you live but everywhere I have lived the truck comes around, more or less weekly, they rattle the bottles and if you have empty ones you can buy the same number of full ones, either off the truck or delivered to your door.

The same applies at the Repsol Depot, Repsol gas stations and even if you phone and they make a one off deliver with a small truck. 

For a number of years I have only used gas for my BBQ. Never had a contact 

Never in over 30 years have I ever been asked to show a contract. 

Maybe I have just been lucky !

PS. My son has had two apartments in the town for about 12 years. One has been occupied free of rent by a friend for seven years. The other is used for holidays. The two have never needed to produce any paperwork to exchange bottles and neither has a contract


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Juan C said:


> I don´t know where you live but everywhere I have lived the truck comes around, more or less weekly, they rattle the bottles and if you have empty ones you can buy the same number of full ones, either off the truck or delivered to your door.
> 
> The same applies at the Repsol Depot, Repsol gas stations and even if you phone and they make a one off deliver with a small truck. Never in over 30 years have I been asked to show a contract.
> 
> Maybe I have just been lucky !


We don't use bottled gas now, but for the 13 years we lived in our old house, we could not just ask for a bottle to be exchanged when the truck came round (I did try, a few times, but was told we had to contact the Repsol agent's office in advance to order one, which I did). So the system is obviously not the same everywhere. We did have a contract, and the Repsol agent sent someone to the house to carry out a safety check before it was issued. That was followed up at 5-yearly intervals by the safety check.

Our contract did refer to insurance cover (I don't still have the copy, but I seem to remember it mentioned being covered up to a certain amount in case of explosions).


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> I don´t know where you live but everywhere I have lived the truck comes around, more or less weekly, they rattle the bottles and if you have empty ones you can buy the same number of full ones, either off the truck or delivered to your door.
> 
> The same applies at the Repsol Depot, Repsol gas stations and even if you phone and they make a one off deliver with a small truck.
> 
> ...


Well the obvious question is, where did you get your initial gas bottles from. And where did your son get his? As I said the legal way is to initially take out a contract....or did you inherit them with a property or buy them empty from a market or such like. To get them replaced you must have an empty one to exchange. You simply cannot rock up and buy one at the garage or the man in the truck without an empty.
I would be very concerned about not having a contract and inspection certs if any accidents occurred in my home.
Of course you have never been asked to show a contract as you have an empty bottle so they assume that you have one.
http://healthcareinsurancespain.es/living-in-spain-bombonas-gas-bottles-6142/


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

Lynn R said:


> We don't use bottled gas now, but for the 13 years we lived in our old house, we could not just ask for a bottle to be exchanged when the truck came round (I did try, a few times, but was told we had to contact the Repsol agent's office in advance to order one, which I did). So the system is obviously not the same everywhere. We did have a contract, and the Repsol agent sent someone to the house to carry out a safety check before it was issued. That was followed up at 5-yearly intervals by the safety check.
> 
> Our contract did refer to insurance cover (I don't still have the copy, but I seem to remember it mentioned being covered up to a certain amount in case of explosions).


Are these bottles different at the no questions asked petrol station to the ones on the noisy truck delivery.

Has anyone ever heard of a gas bottle exploding?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love karma: I Inherited, bought in boot markets and purchased some on contracts I have had over the years.

In a couple of properties I piped the gas in copper pipe with soldered connections, much safer than the compression connectors which used to be approved, from the gas bottles in the garage to the points in the house where I needed the supply, water heater, cooker, room heater etc. Saved carrying bottles around the house and when one bottle ran out (always at an inconvenient moment) I was able to go into the garage and switch the regulator onto a full bottle.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nakabandi said:


> Are these bottles different at the no questions asked petrol station to the ones on the noisy truck delivery.
> 
> *Has anyone ever heard of a gas bottle exploding?*


Thankfully it isn't a frequent event. But is does happen.

https://www.farodevigo.es/sucesos/2017/02/21/brutal-explosion-bombonas-butano/1627839.html

https://www.elmundo.es/madrid/2018/08/12/5b6fc8f9e2704ef5668b4614.html


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## WeeScottie (Mar 17, 2015)

I do worry about exploding gas bottles. We live in a basement flat and our elderly neighbours store their spare under the communal stairs eeek!


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Nakabandi said:


> Are these bottles different at the no questions asked petrol station to the ones on the noisy truck delivery.
> 
> Has anyone ever heard of a gas bottle exploding?


Yep

https://elpais.com/politica/2016/10/03/actualidad/1475494696_892592.html


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

xabiaxica said:


> Thankfully it isn't a frequent event. But is does happen.
> 
> https://www.farodevigo.es/sucesos/2017/02/21/brutal-explosion-bombonas-butano/1627839.html
> 
> https://www.elmundo.es/madrid/2018/08/12/5b6fc8f9e2704ef5668b4614.html


_‘’The deflagration of two butane cylinders can be brutal, as happened yesterday in a Chapela house where a man killed his ex-partner - he also died. In the shattered house appeared traces of gasoline that would have spread throughout the room, a knife and the rubbers of the broken bottles.’’_

Would this have been avoided if they had a contract?


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Nakabandi said:


> _‘’The deflagration of two butane cylinders can be brutal, as happened yesterday in a Chapela house where a man killed his ex-partner - he also died. In the shattered house appeared traces of gasoline that would have spread throughout the room, a knife and the rubbers of the broken bottles.’’_
> *
> Would this have been avoided if they had a contract?*


Doesn't say anywhere in the article whether they "did or didn't have a contract", so why would you assume that they didn't?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

The same as with an ITV or MOT cert, a gas inspection cert only confirms that at the moment of the inspection the installation, etc. was safe. It does not ensure that nothing is done to render it dangerous even just shortly afterwards.

For example if someone were to cut the rubber tube attached to the regulator or to an appliance


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> We don't use bottled gas now, but for the 13 years we lived in our old house, we could not just ask for a bottle to be exchanged when the truck came round (I did try, a few times, but was told we had to contact the Repsol agent's office in advance to order one, which I did). So the system is obviously not the same everywhere. We did have a contract, and the Repsol agent sent someone to the house to carry out a safety check before it was issued. That was followed up at 5-yearly intervals by the safety check.
> 
> Our contract did refer to insurance cover (I don't still have the copy, but I seem to remember it mentioned being covered up to a certain amount in case of explosions).


When we moved here we could not get the bottles without showing the contract. Guy came to house and carried out a safety check. Contract was given for a certain amount of bottles. Our contract states we can have 6 at a time, because we live remotely etc etc. We were also given a date for the safety check renewal. We don’t show a contract to the Repsol shop anymore as they know us


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## Nakabandi (Jul 25, 2019)

Love Karma said:


> Doesn't say anywhere in the article whether they "did or didn't have a contract", so why would you assume that they didn't?


Quite right Love, I worded that incorrectly, you are a vigilant Love. Would it have made any difference if there was or wasn’t a certificate, licence, or any other useful document.:kiss:


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> The same as with an ITV or MOT cert, a gas inspection cert only confirms that at the moment of the inspection the installation, etc. was safe. It does not ensure that nothing is done to render it dangerous even just shortly afterwards.
> 
> For example if someone were to cut the rubber tube attached to the regulator or to an appliance


Obviously but without a current ITV cert your Insurance is rendered Null and Void and you might just be in a spot of bother with the relevant authorities if involved in an accident or at a random stop. Similarly as it is mandatory to have a gas inspection every 5 years a similar outcome would be expected if you couldn't produce a valid certificate. Thats the legal situation as I see it.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Nakabandi said:


> Quite right Love, I worded that incorrectly, you are a vigilant Love. Would it have made any difference if there was or wasn’t a certificate, licence, or any other useful document.:kiss:


Why would it? Passenger aircraft all by law must have a "certificate of airworthiness" and they occasionally crash.  It what is known as an "accident". If they didn't have the relevant Certificate then they'd never get Insurance and if the cert was out of date the insurance would be void. Same deal with gas bottles in the home.


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

Most apartment buildings in France do not allow them, at least all of the council apartments - gas bottles that is. 

Insurance - safety reasons? I don't know.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love Karma said:


> Obviously but without a current ITV cert your Insurance is rendered Null and Void and you might just be in a spot of bother with the relevant authorities if involved in an accident or at a random stop. .




Sorry if I appear pedantic. 

Unless there have been modifications that I have not seen, unlike the traffic law which requires an ITV, there has never been anything in an insurance policy to say a vehicle must have an ITV / MOT. You will find the term used by insurance companies is *that the vehicle must be maintained in a roadworthy condition.* If you think about it that is more specific than just having an ITV. 

As I said the ITV only proves that AT THE MOMENT OF THE INSPECTION THE VEHICLE WAS ROADWORTHY. A vehicle can easily become unroadworthy but have a current certificate. Extreme Example : If one were, on driving out of the test centre, say run over a bottle and damage a tyre, the vehicle would cease to be roadworthy and, if used in that condition, not covered by insurance. 

Being roadworthy also applies to possible infringements of traffic law (RTA´s in UK). Having a current ITV would not mitigate that.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rules and regulations RE gas instalations
https://bombonabutano.com/info/seguridad
*Es necesario revisar la instalación?*

Si, es muy importante revisar la instalación y asegurarse de que todo está en perfecto estado. *Dependiendo de la Comunidad Autónoma la revisión será cada 4 o 5 años.* Los titulares de las instalaciones son los responsables de su mantenimiento y buen uso.


SURPRISE!! It depends on where you live-


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Sorry if I appear pedantic.
> 
> Unless there have been modifications that I have not seen, unlike the traffic law which requires an ITV, there has never been anything in an insurance policy to say a vehicle must have an ITV / MOT. You will find the term used by insurance companies is *that the vehicle must be maintained in a roadworthy condition.* If you think about it that is more specific than just having an ITV.
> 
> ...


All I said was that by not having a current ITV or MOT whilst driving would render your insurance null and void/invalid, and that is all said. Nothing more. Which is FACT.

" Without a current MOT, your car insurance would become invalid. Not having a valid MOT certificate is illegal under Section 47 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and you run the risk of facing a £1,000 fine and a charge of six to eight penalty points on your licence by driving without one.

Not only that but if you have an accident and don’t have an up-to-date MOT certificate, you’ll be liable to cover the costs. The average claim is likely to be much more than the cost of your missed test so it’s well worth making sure you’re up to date with your MOT. Especially as if you’re convicted of driving without a valid certificate, your insurance premiums could go up when it gets time to renew again."

https://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-advice/is-car-insurance-valid-without-mot-0-5903-0.htm
https://parkinsurance.co.uk/will-invalidate-car-insurance-complete-list-2018/


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Love Karma said:


> Obviously but without a current ITV cert your Insurance is rendered Null and Void and you might just be in a spot of bother with the relevant authorities if involved in an accident or at a random stop. Similarly as it is mandatory to have a gas inspection every 5 years a similar outcome would be expected if you couldn't produce a valid certificate. Thats the legal situation as I see it.


I don't believe that to be correct. It might revert to 3rd party only but I don't think it's rendered null & void.

Who says it's mandatory to have this inspection? No one (so far) has been able to post a link to this law.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love, would you please humour me and quote from an insurance policy that not having an ITV or MOT renders the policy invalid. Then we can move to the next point if necessary

Thanks

PS Just in passing

In UK (I know this is Spain but you are quoting UK law) one may drive to an appointment for a test when one´s certificate is out of date. The insurance is still valid if in date, but the vehicle must be roadworthy or the insurance is invalid.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiaxica said:


> Thankfully it isn't a frequent event. But is does happen.
> 
> https://www.farodevigo.es/sucesos/2017/02/21/brutal-explosion-bombonas-butano/1627839.html
> 
> https://www.elmundo.es/madrid/2018/08/12/5b6fc8f9e2704ef5668b4614.html


It happened to a former neighbour of mine, an elderly lady. She survived for a few days in the Burns Unit at Carlos Haya Hospital in Málaga, not a nice way to go.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

snikpoh said:


> Who says it's mandatory to have this inspection? No one (so far) has been able to post a link to this law.


Read Pesk Wesky's post #54 on rules and regs. Also you can see again in Murcia today 

https://murciatoday.com/spanish-gas-scams-the-facts_120580-a.html

Where it clearly says " Current legislation states that fixed gas installations must be checked every 5 years as per the Spanish Royal Decree 1085/1992 and here is a link to the Royal Decree.

https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-1992-22638


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Love, would you please humour me and quote from an insurance policy that not having an ITV or MOT renders the policy invalid. Then we can move to the next point if necessary
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


Please show me where I said that I was quoting from an insurance policy: I was only quoting U.K law as you were the one who brought the MOT into the thread #47. 
As you asked yes I'll humour you.
Direct Line in their policy wording state that in most of cases your insurance is invalid without an MOT, similarly AXA......I assume the Linea directa would have similar Spanish wording regarding the ITV....go google it as I really cannot be arséd.

https://www.directlineforbusiness.c...e-centre/running-your-van/driving-without-MOT.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love. I checked the link you posted the the gas inspections. To save everyone who would like to check wading though masses of info, could you please paste the section you rely, on in a post 

Many thanks. Juan


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love the the direct line post. It does not say no ITV will render insurance invalid It refer to vehicle being roadworthy 

I have just checked my Direct Line policy. It does not say I must have an ITV, it does mention roadworthy


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Love the the direct line post. It does not say no ITV will render insurance invalid It refer to vehicle being roadworthy
> 
> I have just checked my Direct Line policy. It does not say I must have an ITV, it does mention roadworthy


Of course Direct Line link doesn't mention itv as it the U.K arm and refers quite clearly to the MOT. And does state so on their website 

*Is my car or van insurance valid without an MOT?*

_In most cases, as soon as your MOT expires, your insurance will no longer be valid. So if you have an accident, your van won’t be covered by your insurance provider and you’ll have to pay for repairs yourself – or potentially have your van written off. If the accident was your fault, you’ll also have to pay for the damage caused to any other vehicles involved, which could be very expensive. And, because it’s also illegal to drive without valid insurance, if you’re caught, you can face an unlimited fine or even disqualification from driving, plus 6 to 8 penalty points._

Even driving to an MOT maybe a big problem if you read their website.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Sorry. Love. But ‘In most cases, as soon as your MOT expires, your insurance will no longer be valid. ’. Does not say what you are relying on

If it was invalid without as MOT it would say that, just as it say unambiguously that being unroadworthy renders the policy invalid. As one can legally drive, any distance, by the reasonably shortest route, to an MOT appointment, without a valid MOT, and one is insured, shows that what you say cannot be correct in law.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Sorry. Love. But ‘In most cases, as soon as your MOT expires, your insurance will no longer be valid. ’. Does not say what you are relying on
> 
> If it was invalid without as MOT it would say that, just as it say unambiguously that being unroadworthy renders the policy invalid. As one can legally drive, any distance, by the reasonably shortest route, to an MOT appointment, without a valid MOT, and one is insured, shows that what you say cannot be correct in law.


ah now your trying to be specific as to why one was driving with an expired itv or mot. Good luck arguing the toss with Trafico or the Guardia or if in an unfortunate accident waffling on to your insurer when they refuse to pay out on the slightest technicality. As they are prone to do.....unless you are now going to argue their case that insurance companies are ever so understanding and never try to find a way to pay out....any way all yours as I can see that you must at all costs however ludicrous have the final word....I'm out and happy motoring.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> So, are you saying there is a law for this or do you mean that the installation SHOULD be checked regularly?
> 
> If so, by whom? It certainly doesn't have to be Repsol


It is the law. 

Best to use Repsol or Cepsa-recommended firms. There is a well-known scam where men in overalls and phoney credentials knock on your door and say they are there to do the check, take cash in advance saying they'll be back tomorrow, and are never seen again.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Love Karma said:


> Of course *Direct Line* link doesn't mention itv as it the U.K arm and refers quite clearly to the MOT. And does state so on their website
> 
> *Is my car or van insurance valid without an MOT?*
> 
> ...


Direct Line also present in Spain and even caters for Expats on it's website seeking car insurance etc. 
Direct Line are called Linea Directa in Spain.
It even has a Brexit, how it affects you section on it's website.


Linea Directa - Direct Line Insurance in Spain


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

TBH I’m unsure what any of this has to do with the OP question which I presume has been answered!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Nakabandi said:


> Has anyone ever heard of a gas bottle exploding?


I forgot this example,which happened in my town in 2016 when 77 people were injured. A bombona in the kitchen of a bar exploded when the town's annual feria was in full swing. It could have been much worse had staff working in the kitchen not smelt gas and alerted the Policia Local who evacuated the premises.

https://www.diariosur.es/malaga/201610/01/heridos-explosion-velez-malaga-20161001192505.html


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## RagnBowman (Jul 23, 2019)

Williams2 said:


> Direct Line also present in Spain and even caters for Expats on it's website seeking car insurance etc.
> Direct Line are called Linea Directa in Spain.
> It even has a Brexit, how it affects you section on it's website.
> 
> ...


Having recently been shopping around for home insurance I think you'll find that Linea Directa have not been related in any way to Direct line in the U.K for the last ten years. It is owned 100% by the Spanish BankInter. They are wholly separate companies. 



https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ki/L%C3%ADnea_Directa_Aseguradora&prev=search


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## IKnowNothing (Nov 9, 2018)

Megsmum said:


> TBH I’m unsure what any of this has to do with the OP question which I presume has been answered!


I guess it is a little off-topic, but nevertheless I find the discussion interesting. I think my original question ("licenses required?") has been answered (with a "probably, but check with the town hall"). But I'm still interested in any other obscure license requirements that I might unintentionally fail to apply for in this new environment. The demand for a gas inspection every 5 years, which *Alcalaina* has provided so much useful info, on was not new to me but it was nice to have my view on this confirmed.

Ideally I'd wish there was some kind of printed table, like a matrix:







but I guess it would be far too much work to compile it.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

RagnBowman said:


> Having recently been shopping around for home insurance I think you'll find that Linea Directa have not been related in any way to Direct line in the U.K for the last ten years. It is owned 100% by the Spanish BankInter. They are wholly separate companies.
> 
> 
> 
> https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ki/L%C3%ADnea_Directa_Aseguradora&prev=search


So Direct Line could have grounds for suing Linea Directa for continuing to use DL's distinctive
logo or failing to come up with a distinctive logo of their own, as well as a new brand name,
even if its in Spanish ?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> So Direct Line could have grounds for suing Linea Directa for continuing to use DL's distinctive
> logo or failing to come up with a distinctive logo of their own, as well as a new brand name,
> even if its in Spanish ?


They even have the same TV advert, with the big red telephone!

Different registered companies for tax purposes, but basically the same company. Like Banco Santander and Santander UK.


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## RagnBowman (Jul 23, 2019)

Williams2 said:


> So Direct Line could have grounds for suing Linea Directa for continuing to use DL's distinctive
> logo or failing to come up with a distinctive logo of their own, as well as a new brand name,
> even if its in Spanish ?


I would imagine a deal would have been agreed by the lawyers when the deal was done and Bankinter bought the Royal Bank Of Scotlands stake and took 100% ownership, wouldn't you?


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## RagnBowman (Jul 23, 2019)

Alcalaina said:


> They even have the same TV advert, with the big red telephone!
> 
> Different registered companies for tax purposes, but basically the same company. Like Banco Santander and Santander UK.


Completely different as Linea Directa Espana is wholly owned by Bankinter and has no affiliation with Direct Line in the U.K since 2009. Santander U.K is a wholly owned subsiduary of Banco Santander.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

RagnBowman said:


> Completely different as Linea Directa Espana is wholly owned by Bankinter and has no affiliation with Direct Line in the U.K since 2009. Santander U.K is a wholly owned subsiduary of Banco Santander.


This is interesting as I'm sure both companies will fall foul of some law or consumer rights law at
some stage for continuing to use identikit brand names, logo's, adverts, etc.
It's also not unknown for any bad publicity from one side to spill over onto the other sides image
which would be another driver for their shareholders to differentiate the companies.

You would think the parent company of Direct Line would be fiercely protecting it's assets
and therefore come down heavily on any who try to copy their success, no matter in
what circumstances it arose, using the old adage beware of imitations !!

As it will certainly influence the consumers decision about which company they choose
to take insurance from as they might have had great service from Direct Line UK whereas
Linea Directa could be poorer in those respects compared to Direct Line in the UK

The fact that Linea Directa uses the same logo's, style, brand name ( albeit in Spanish )
and even the same style adverts would be leading the consumer up the preverbial
garden path to what might be an unwise decision.


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## RagnBowman (Jul 23, 2019)

Williams2 said:


> This is interesting as I'm sure both companies will fall foul of some law or consumer rights law at
> some stage for continuing to use identikit brand names, logo's, adverts, etc.
> 
> Well it's not arisen in ten years so why would it now? But would you not think that in a buy out of €420+ million both sides RBS and Bankinter would have had vast teams of legal experts in various fields of takeovers, mergers and acquisitions etc to ensure this would not arise and the deal was legal, above board and adhering to every legal requirement that was required in law?
> ...


Answered above


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

RagnBowman said:


> Answered above


Still strange nevertheless, many other companies in a similar position usually like to start afresh.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

If the developer who finished of my house is coming to replace the faulty roof terrace will I need a licence to get the work completed?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Roy

It’s an assumption, but if there is a licence to build, then that would seem clearly to be to finish the work to the standard required for approval by the architect, so the work can be signed off. 

If you were having additional work carried out, then probably that would require a licence.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks Juan, what happened was they sold us the houses finished with licence of first occupation and then this failed came to light which means they have fo replace the terrace room make good the work, so I think I'll just go with the flow as they have had to replace one previously for a neighbour. Obviously a good standard of work &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;


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## Monkey104 (Aug 24, 2014)

Oops! Since moving here in April we have had a pellet fired central heating system fitted, steps built in to the pool, an electric gate opener fitted, painted one of the bedrooms, had a new kitchen fitted and I have just finished retiling the kitchen after removing 3 layers of tiles and not applied for any licences.
Fortunately we are fairly rural. Our neighbour who is also a local councillor has even been round to admire the heating system and not said anything. I think he is just happy that he now has permanent neighbours as opposed to holiday makers.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Monkey. It may well be that you did not need a licence. Either way I am sure you need not worry too much about it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Monkey104 said:


> Oops! Since moving here in April we have had a pellet fired central heating system fitted, steps built in to the pool, an electric gate opener fitted, painted one of the bedrooms, had a new kitchen fitted and I have just finished retiling the kitchen after removing 3 layers of tiles and not applied for any licences.
> Fortunately we are fairly rural. Our neighbour who is also a local councillor has even been round to admire the heating system and not said anything. I think he is just happy that he now has permanent neighbours as opposed to holiday makers.


Actually you could still be fined, hopefully not, but still a possibility


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## Monkey104 (Aug 24, 2014)

Just a thought, how far back would the ayuntiamento go to fine someone and how would they know?
For example: if approved years ago my living room was white and I painted it burnt sienna, misty buff or whatever, how would they know the previous colour?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Monkey104 said:


> Just a thought, how far back would the ayuntiamento go to fine someone and how would they know?
> For example: if approved years ago my living room was white and I painted it burnt sienna, misty buff or whatever, how would they know the previous colour?


They would not know (IMO)


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Monkey104 said:


> Just a thought, how far back would the ayuntiamento go to fine someone and how would they know?
> For example: if approved years ago my living room was white and I painted it burnt sienna, misty buff or whatever, how would they know the previous colour?


They won’t.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Monkey104 said:


> Just a thought, how far back would the ayuntiamento go to fine someone and how would they know?
> For example: if approved years ago my living room was white and I painted it burnt sienna, misty buff or whatever, how would they know the previous colour?


I don't think they would care about most interior work. Exterior is more problematic. In some areas they are now sending drones round every x months. I think, but don't know that how long they backdate a fine would depend on each local authority, but I do know that it's measured in years, not months. In your case I don't think it would really matter. You'd have to pay a fine and that would be that, but some people, Spanish and foreigners alike have to demolish extensions and the like.
Why didn't you get a licence I wonder...


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

As a general warning, take great care about advice received from the town hall. I won't go into detail, but we went to ask in person if we needed a licence to do some refurb works on our apartment and after describing them verbally and showing a plan, we were told that no licence was required and that we should just go ahead (although they did tell us we would need a licence for the skip in the street if we wanted one).

After the work was done (with some quality issues) we asked another builder to come to quote for some remedial work, and according to him the guy in the town hall was wrong, and we really should have had a licence. 
With hindsight, I wish we had applied for a licence despite the advice as I would feel a lot more comfortable about it. There's no way we would escape a fine by simply saying that someone in the town hall told us it wasn't necessary.


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## Monkey104 (Aug 24, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think they would care about most interior work. Exterior is more problematic. In some areas they are now sending drones round every x months. I think, but don't know that how long they backdate a fine would depend on each local authority, but I do know that it's measured in years, not months. In your case I don't think it would really matter. You'd have to pay a fine and that would be that, but some people, Spanish and foreigners alike have to demolish extensions and the like.
> Why didn't you get a licence I wonder...


Just ignorance I guess. It is only since having the work done I came across an article regarding licences for renovation work.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Monkey104 said:


> Just ignorance I guess. It is only since having the work done I came across an article regarding licences for renovation work.


Spain is an extremely bureaucratic society so I think you can pretty much assume that if you need a licence, to fulfil requirements, to think about limits etc in the UK, you will probably (officially) be expected to do the same in the Spain. Of course some things can be and are, frequently ignored, but it might be best to find out what is needed and what is not. Another way of thinking is to not assume that things work the same way as the UK.
This is not meant as any kind of attack on Monkey 104 - just as general info


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