# Are gringos destroying Mexico?



## ptrichmondmike

I assume it's okay to post this link to an article by Doug Bower, a well-known expat writer about Mexico. Basically, his point is that the number of U.S. gringos moving to Mexico is increasing rapidly, that the vast majority of them refuse to assimilate, and that they are beginning to distort Mexican society and culture in very negative ways.

I think he has a few good points, but many others seem informed by dislike for change and a desire to keep Mexico preserved in the amber he thought he found it in 30 years ago. I was amused by his repeated allusion to Gay Pride parades -- a phenomenon which may have begun in the U.S. but is now worldwide.

Thoughts?

Guanajuato: The New San Miguel


----------



## Longford

ptrichmondmike said:


> I assume it's okay to post this link to an article by Doug Bower, a well-known expat writer about Mexico. Basically, his point is that the number of U.S. gringos moving to Mexico is increasing rapidly, that the vast majority of them refuse to assimilate, and that they are beginning to distort Mexican society and culture in very negative ways.
> 
> I think he has a few good points, but many others seem informed by dislike for change and a desire to keep Mexico preserved in the amber he thought he found it in 30 years ago. I was amused by his repeated allusion to Gay Pride parades -- a phenomenon which may have begun in the U.S. but is now worldwide.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Guanajuato: The New San Miguel


My reaction: He's misinformed, and as a result ... writes from a position of ignorance. But my strongest reaction was that he writes fiction and that fiction shouldn't be confused with reality. He engages in self promotion, endlessly. Actually, he's a good example of the "Ugly American."


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Thanks for that perspective -- you know more about Mr. Bower than I. I was struck by his easy, implied generalizations, such as the gringos he claims to have seen chasing away a beggar asking for a few pesos, or berating non-English speaking vendors...therefore is typical of ****** behavior? I doubt that very much.


----------



## chicois8

I do not know about this Mr. Bower but to answer your title I would say yes, if it was not for the ****** 
(American and Canadian) thirst for drugs the border states would not be under...


----------



## sparks

Doug Bower has a quota to meet with his published words and has written a few other rather negative articles on Mexico .... in the vein of "it's not like it used to be". Doesn't seem like a good way to promote his 2-3 earlier books on Mexico


----------



## cuylers5746

*******'s negatively effecting Mexico*



ptrichmondmike said:


> I assume it's okay to post this link to an article by Doug Bower, a well-known expat writer about Mexico. Basically, his point is that the number of U.S. gringos moving to Mexico is increasing rapidly, that the vast majority of them refuse to assimilate, and that they are beginning to distort Mexican society and culture in very negative ways.
> 
> I think he has a few good points, but many others seem informed by dislike for change and a desire to keep Mexico preserved in the amber he thought he found it in 30 years ago. I was amused by his repeated allusion to Gay Pride parades -- a phenomenon which may have begun in the U.S. but is now worldwide.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Guanajuato: The New San Miguel


Hi ptrichmondmike;

I'd say for the most part no, they're not having an negative impact on Mexico. But specifically in some parts like Cabo San Lucas - yes! Cabo has become Newport Beach, CA. South. Gringos galore in Blue Century 21 Blazers trying to sell me property I can't own "fee simple". My wife a Mexicana almost threw up, and demanded after a very short visit, that we leave and get the heck out of there. Yes they have some absolutely beautiful hotels and serene ocean views but as far as the culture - it's just too departed from Mexico. I'm sure there are some other places in Mexico as well.

Mexican's are so used to these negative impacts, that they even have some sayings for them. They just let what they see just wash off their backs so to speak. Way more tolerant culture than the USA.

Any young budying Socialogists or Socio-Economists want to start a fasinating Doctoral Thesis on this? I say that as Mexico is about to explode with change being part (and probably the strongest part) of the New North American Union. Canada, USA and Mexico. Globalization at oil around $100.00 / barrel is out. Too expensive to ship raw materials from Australia, South America, South Africa to China, India to make goods in factories using more expensive power and then ship to Europe and USA. They know that, as there's over 220 Chinese Mfgs. knocking down Mexico's doors right now to build factories. That and the fact if they make separate subsidieries in Mexico, they can bypass Import Customs Duties, and get all the benefits from NAFTA and all the bilateral free trade agreements made by Pres. Bush (over 80) and Pres. Fox (over 40), and ship mostly duty free. This loop hole is even if they weren't part of the original NAFTA agreement!

Already in Queretaro Boeing, Bell Helicopter and a Canadian Aircraft Co. are building huge plants. Having worked in Aerospace, I'd assume a minimum of 10,000 new jobs. Think what impact that is going to have on Queretaro State? It's going to be a huge hub for Aircraft Manufacturing in North America. 

Leveno is building a $40+ Million USD plant some where in Mexico too. That's the Chinese computer manufacturer.

All these companies are jumping the gun, not even waiting until the Drug Cartel Wars are over.

My bottom line read on the whole thing. Mexico will have some influences of the 22nd Century thrust upon parts of it, while much of Mexico still lives in the 19th-20th Century. 

It should be interesting?


----------



## Souper

If one googles his name interesting threads come up. Here is an interesting one.
Doug Bower


----------



## joaquinx

And he's getting attention on Guanajuato-The New San Miguel? - page 2 - Lonely Planet travel forum Lonely Planet.


----------



## Anonimo

*¡Fascinante!*



Souper said:


> If one googles his name interesting threads come up. Here is an interesting one.
> Doug Bower


¡Fascinante! What can one believe? The internet is a web of deceit and delusions. 
:crazy: ?

I posted my thoughts on Mr. Bower's article on the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree, Mexico Branch.


----------



## dongringo

Are gringos destroying Mexico?
Heck yes, little by little, thank the Lord and forward thinking Mexicans. Meanwhile Doug Bowers should suck lemons!

Does anyone want to retain Mexico as a theme park for US visitors and retirees?


----------



## telcoman

I don't think I have ever seen a non-integration problem to the extent you see it in Spain with Brit ex pats. I just go back from there. It is very obvious.


----------



## TundraGreen

telcoman said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a non-integration problem to the extent you see it in Spain with Brit ex pats. I just go back from there. It is very obvious.


I am happy to be oblivious to the problems caused by large conglomerations of ex pats. I spent 2 months in Spain this year, but not anywhere immigrants live. And the only other immigrant in my neighborhood here in Mexico lives several blocks away and almost never see him, so I don't think we are impacting the local culture at all. The guy that sells me propane bottles says he has 4 or 5 people who speak English on his route. I don't know how much ground he covers, but I never see any other English speakers.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I am happy to be oblivious to the problems caused by large conglomerations of ex pats. I spent 2 months in Spain this year, but not anywhere immigrants live. And the only other immigrant in my neighborhood here in Mexico lives several blocks away and almost never see him, so I don't think we are impacting the local culture at all. The guy that sells me propane bottles says he has 4 or 5 people who speak English on his route. I don't know how much ground he covers, but I never see any other English speakers.


In my neighborhood in Mexico City, I rarely run into ****** expats, and I live a 5-minute walk away from the US Embassy.


----------



## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> In my neighborhood in Mexico City, I rarely run into ****** expats, and I live a 5-minute walk away from the US Embassy.


I am about a 20 minute walk from the Consulate here. But all the consulate employees live in gated compounds way out in the suburbs. They seem pretty isolated from the Mexico and that I know and love.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I am about a 20 minute walk from the Consulate here. But all the consulate employees live in gated compounds way out in the suburbs. They seem pretty isolated from the Mexico and that I know and love.


I'm sure that the Embassy employees live in gilded colonias like Polanco and the various Lomas along with other well-paid expats and the Mexican upper-crust.


----------



## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> I'm sure that the Embassy employees live in gilded colonias like Polanco and the various Lomas along with other well-paid expats and the Mexican upper-crust.


For security reasons, Embassy personnel, personnel from abroad, are housed in specially built housing in the "new" section of Santa Fe. The Ambassador li ves in housing in Lomas de Chapultepec, if I'm not mistakienand possibly top two under him may live in private homes ... well guarded. I wouldn't describe these individuals as isolated from activity in the city, though their neighbors are persons similar to themselves. The staff attends church, visits restaurants, grocery stores, department stores, movies, etc., etc., not much differently than middle-class Mexicans do. And they interact closely with Mexican nationals who are employees of the Embassy and Consular offices. Embassy personnel receive a type of hazardous duty stipend for working in Mexico. It's been that way for a long time, not just the past several years.


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> For security reasons, Embassy personnel, personnel from abroad, are housed in specially built housing in the "new" section of Santa Fe. The Ambassador li ves in housing in Lomas de Chapultepec, if I'm not mistakienand possibly top two under him may live in private homes ... well guarded. I wouldn't describe these individuals as isolated from activity in the city, though their neighbors are persons similar to themselves. The staff attends church, visits restaurants, grocery stores, department stores, movies, etc., etc., not much differently than middle-class Mexicans do. And they interact closely with Mexican nationals who are employees of the Embassy and Consular offices. Embassy personnel receive a type of hazardous duty stipend for working in Mexico. It's been that way for a long time, not just the past several years.


If they live in Santa Fe, then they are certainly isolated from the heart of Mexico City. I would hope they venture out of that area when they attend church, eat out, go to movies and so on. Hazardous duty stipend, good God!


----------



## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> For security reasons, Embassy personnel, personnel from abroad, are housed in specially built housing in the "new" section of Santa Fe. The Ambassador li ves in housing in Lomas de Chapultepec, if I'm not mistakienand possibly top two under him may live in private homes ... well guarded. I wouldn't describe these individuals as isolated from activity in the city, though their neighbors are persons similar to themselves. The staff attends church, visits restaurants, grocery stores, department stores, movies, etc., etc., not much differently than middle-class Mexicans do. And they interact closely with Mexican nationals who are employees of the Embassy and Consular offices. Embassy personnel receive a type of hazardous duty stipend for working in Mexico. It's been that way for a long time, not just the past several years.


You may be right. Most of my neighbors are probably not middle class. The consulate employees live in gated compounds and shop at the malls. That is a different live style than the people I see, but you may be right that it is similar to how many Mexicans live.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> You may be right. Most of my neighbors are probably not middle class. The consulate employees live in gated compounds and shop at the malls. That is a different live style than the people I see, but you may be right that it is similar to how many Mexicans live.


The Mexicans I know are middle-class and none of them live in gated compounds and shop exclusively in malls. Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd!


----------



## dongringo

Skip counting your neighbors!
Count the US businesses in your city and its US trained management, add the US educated political class, mix in the upper classes who mostly have an English speaking education, throw in tens of thousands of gringos economically involved in Mexico, stir the pot with even more thousands of Mexicans with US work experience. Let's not forget the US/MEXICAN border interphase!. Count the time share idiots in the major resorts, check the nationality of the discount airline pilots. How many ****** English teachers are there in Mexico? And who owns most of the Mexican railways, and most of its taco industry?
NO, gringos are not destroying Mexico, but they sure as hell (tundra green) are changing it.


----------



## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> You may be right. Most of my neighbors are probably not middle class. The consulate employees live in gated compounds and shop at the malls. That is a different live style than the people I see, but you may be right that it is similar to how many Mexicans live.


Consular or Embassy personnel living in secured facilities began doing so long after many Mexicans started the trend. It's the norm in many parts of Mexico, particularly in the largest and most populated cities, for middle-class (and for lessser economic class) Mexicans living behind high walls, some with electrified wires and razor wire on the top of the walls, bars on the doors and windows and loud burglar alarms flashing red lights mounted on the home's exterior, weapons in the homes, etc. And Consular/Embassy staff from the USA aren't alone living in these types of secured premises. Peers on assignment for other nations often live securely. Although, the USA has the largest contingtent. The reasons for living this way should be obvious. Mexican nationals who are employed at the Embassy and many of the Consular offices live not much different than the average Mexican in their economic class. And many of those have been victimized by crime and/or other violence in ways other Mexicans have been victimized.


----------



## DennyDaddy

At least the influx of gringoes to MEXICO is no worst than what the Cartel is doing to MEXICO, and the few xpats I know of are trying to fit in! Writters need something to wright about....no matter how stupid or worthwhile!

DD


----------



## edgeee

dongringo said:


> Skip counting your neighbors!
> Count the US businesses in your city and its US trained management, add the US educated political class, mix in the upper classes who mostly have an English speaking education, throw in tens of thousands of gringos economically involved in Mexico, stir the pot with even more thousands of Mexicans with US work experience. Let's not forget the US/MEXICAN border interphase!. Count the time share idiots in the major resorts, check the nationality of the discount airline pilots. How many ****** English teachers are there in Mexico? And who owns most of the Mexican railways, and most of its taco industry?
> NO, gringos are not destroying Mexico, but they sure as hell (tundra green) are changing it.


Excellent job of emphasizing the complexity involved.
my wife would hate you.

she's asked me a thousand times, "why do you have to complicate everything?", and never in a good way.


----------



## mickisue1

Of course the internet is a web of lies. It's also a web of facts.

It's always a good idea to google anyone who sets him/herself up as an authority on just about anything. There's a website called quackwatch.com, and I've seen many people use it as a "reliable" source. 

They are, of course, unaware that the owner of the site is a long out of practice MD, who lost his job when his malpractice insurer wouldn't carry him anymore. I don't know why, of course. But he'd been practicing as a psychiatrist, despite never passing the exam to become board certified.

This Doug Bowers sounds like he may be a similar sort, who couldn't make it doing what he was doing, so chooses to attack those who live their lives well.


----------



## Anonimo

You are correct, mickisue1, that the internet is also a web of facts. The difficulty is sifting out the facts from the lies.


----------



## Isla Verde

dongringo said:


> How many ****** English teachers are there in Mexico?


I can't answer your question directly, dongringo. However, I can assure you that the vast majority of English teachers in Mexico are Mexican. I doubt the foreign English teachers (from the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.) working here have the financial means or the desire to "destroy" Mexico . Most of us are just doing our job and trying to make lives for ourselves here on the not very generous salaries paid by Mexican owners of language schools or the somewhat better salaries offered by Mexican universities or _colegios_.


----------



## circle110

Mr. Bower appears to be an angry man and perhaps a little delusional.

I live in Guanajuato and most of what he says sounds like he is talking about another city, not the one where I live. I don't know most of the expats here so I am not in that "clique" but much of what he says isn't really true.

I don't know where the ****** housing "enclave" is. We just finished scouring the city looking at houses and we didn't see such a place.

I don't know about the "American" library although I'd love to find it if it exists. I see no harm to Guanajuato if it exists and, although I sometimes read novels in Spanish, I like to pleasure read in my native tongue most of the time and a library would be fantastic.

I know the cultural director and I'm not aware of any plan to create "American" events. There are no "American" concerts. If there were, I would know since, as a musician, I am in contact with the local musicians both American and Mexican. If such concerts existed, we'd be giving them.

As to his comment that there is a resentment of Americans here in Guanajuato, there might be a tiny grain of truth. Many times I have been treated rather coldly at first in a store or business in the areas of town not frequented by expats. But once they realize that I have made the effort to learn Spanish and that I am treating them with respect, they slowly come around and treat me with the same.

I suspect Doug Bower may have left the respect factor out of his dealings with the locals and may have been treated likewise in return, thus creating his perception of resentment. The people of Guanajuato don't necessarily resent Americans, but they do resent jerks.


----------



## TundraGreen

I don't think immigrants moving to Mexico are having a significant affect on the country with the exception of a few small enclaves with relatively high percentages of immigrants, like San Miguel de Allende and Lake Chapala. Mexico just does not attract that many immigrants. According the most recent Mexico 2010 Census, about 1% of the population was born outside of Mexico. And about half of these are children born in the US to Mexican parents, but now living back in Mexico.

Contrast this with the US, where 12.9% of the population was born in another country according to the most recent US 2010 Census there. 

The US has always been attractive to immigrants and they have had a huge influence on the culture of the country. In contrast, immigrants in Mexico form a small fraction of the population and have much less influence.

What is affecting the lifestyle in Mexico, however, is the introduction of chain store retailing with the incursion of international companies like Walmart, Costco, Home Depot, Office Depot, 7-Eleven, and domestic chains like Soriana, Comercial Mexicana, Oxxo, Farmacia Guadalajara.


----------



## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> I don't think immigrants moving to Mexico are having a significant affect on the country with the exception of a few small enclaves with relatively high percentages of immigrants, like San Miguel de Allende and Lake Chapala. Mexico just does not attract that many immigrants. According the most recent Mexico 2010 Census, about 1% of the population was born outside of Mexico. And about half of these are children born in the US to Mexican parents, but now living back in Mexico.
> 
> Contrast this with the US, where 12.9% of the population was born in another country according to the most recent US 2010 Census there.
> 
> The US has always been attractive to immigrants and they have had a huge influence on the culture of the country. In contrast, immigrants in Mexico form a small fraction of the population and have much less influence.
> 
> What is affecting the lifestyle in Mexico, however, is the introduction of chain store retailing with the incursion of international companies like Walmart, Costco, Home Depot, Office Depot, 7-Eleven, and domestic chains like Soriana, Comercial Mexicana, Oxxo, Farmacia Guadalajara.


That is what I feel in a nutshell also. Good synopsis. IMO


----------



## conklinwh

ptrichmondmike said:


> I assume it's okay to post this link to an article by Doug Bower, a well-known expat writer about Mexico. Basically, his point is that the number of U.S. gringos moving to Mexico is increasing rapidly, that the vast majority of them refuse to assimilate, and that they are beginning to distort Mexican society and culture in very negative ways.
> 
> I think he has a few good points, but many others seem informed by dislike for change and a desire to keep Mexico preserved in the amber he thought he found it in 30 years ago. I was amused by his repeated allusion to Gay Pride parades -- a phenomenon which may have begun in the U.S. but is now worldwide.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Guanajuato: The New San Miguel


All I could think of in reading the Bower article is that here is a person that is playing out the worst of stereotypes in order to sell books. As stated in response by Circle110 this is a characterization of Guanajuato that defies anything that I have ever seen. We go to Guanajuato because it a a very beautiful historic city with a very large college population that makes it very different than anyplace else we visit.
I won't go into detail on the San Miguel comments as he took too many hateful pot shots. There has been a large expat population since the late '40's fueled by budding artists using the GI bill and they did a great job of both assimilating and enhancing San Miguel through a wide range of charities. There certainly was a time from about 2000 to 2008 where there was an overlay of expats looking for 2nd vacation homes with little interest in assimilation that caused real friction with the longer term expat population.
2008 basically took care of that and San Miguel now has much more of an affluent Mexican population, mostly from DF, that have bought up the 2nd homes and party real hard. This seems to cause a lot more friction with the local Mexican population than the fly-in gringos ever did.


----------



## MrOctober430

Mexicans are ruining Mexico.


----------



## TundraGreen

MrOctober430 said:


> Mexicans are ruining Mexico.


I suppose that is true.
And US citizens are ruining the US.
Are Canadians ruining Canada?


----------



## Longford

TundraGreen said:


> Are Canadians ruining Canada?


Canada was ruined a long time ago!:fencing:


----------



## joaquinx

Longford said:


> Canada was ruined a long time ago!:fencing:


And I thought that it was Poutine.

Sent from my LG phone using Expat Forum


----------



## TundraGreen

joaquinx said:


> And I thought that it was Poutine.


I had to google that. It sounds perfectly awful. But then I am not a fan of chilaquiles or nachos either.


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> I had to google that. It sounds perfectly awful. But then I am not a fan of chilaquiles or nachos either.


Living, as I do, in South Canada, AKA Minnesota, I knew of poutine. But I'd never seen it, in all its disgusting glory, till an episode of Househunters International showed a couple scarfing it down, talking about how much they'd miss it when they moved to wherever. 

Wherever, that is, that has the sense not to serve poutine.


----------



## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Living, as I do, in South Canada, AKA Minnesota, I knew of poutine. But I'd never seen it, in all its disgusting glory, till an episode of Househunters International showed a couple scarfing it down, talking about how much they'd miss it when they moved to wherever.
> 
> Wherever, that is, that has the sense not to serve poutine.


I've seen photos of poutine, and that was enough to put me off the idea of ever eating it. Yuck!


----------



## dongringo

Isla Verde said:


> I can't answer your question directly, dongringo. However, I can assure you that the vast majority of English teachers in Mexico are Mexican. I doubt the foreign English teachers (from the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc.) working here have the financial means or the desire to "destroy" Mexico . Most of us are just doing our job and trying to make lives for ourselves here on the not very generous salaries paid by Mexican owners of language schools or the somewhat better salaries offered by Mexican universities or _colegios_.


Who said anything about destroying? The point was foreign influence on potential changes in Mexico.


----------



## Isla Verde

dongringo said:


> Who said anything about destroying? The point was foreign influence on potential changes in Mexico.


I was referring to the title of this thread, as I thought you were with your post.


----------



## edgeee

joaquinx said:


> And I thought that it was Poutine.
> 
> Sent from my LG phone using Expat Forum


joaquinx, you've some 'splaining to do.

what right do you have to subject such gastrointestinal delights to widespread ridicule?
i've never tasted it, but the wiki recipe sounds delicious.

_"In the basic recipe for poutine, French fries are covered with brown gravy, and topped with fresh cheese curds. The French fries are of medium thickness, and fried so that the inside stays soft, while the outside is crunchy. The gravy used is generally a light chicken, veal or turkey gravy, mildly spiced with a hint of pepper, or a sauce brune which is a combination of beef and chicken stock, originating in Quebec. These sauces typically also contain vinegar or a sour flavouring to balance the richness of the cheese and fries. Traditional Poutine sauces (mélange à sauce poutine) are sold in Quebec and Maritime grocery stores in jars or cans and in powdered mix packet.
Heavy beef or pork-based brown gravies are rarely used. Fresh cheese curds (not more than a day old) are used. To maintain the texture of the fries, the cheese curd and gravy is added immediately prior to serving the dish. The hot gravy is usually poured over the cold cheese curds, so that the cheese is warmed without completely melting. It is important to control the temperature, timing and order in which the ingredients are added so as to obtain the right food textures which is an essential part of the experience of eating poutine."_

if some celebrity chef was describing it, viewers would swoon at the thought.

anyone who has ever enjoyed scrapple has no right to judge.
the 'good old days' contained many elements that were unseemly, but necessary.
poor white trash were not the first to use everything but the squeal, when it comes to pork.

can i get a HURRAH for Waffle House?


----------



## ptrichmondmike

TundraGreen said:


> I had to google that. It sounds perfectly awful. But then I am not a fan of chilaquiles or nachos either.


Mexico City, 1971. 7:00 a.m. Chilaquiles con crema. cAFE DE OLLA. MUY sabrosa!


----------



## stilltraveling

ptrichmondmike said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> Guanajuato: The New San Miguel


Gringos are destroying Mexico, but not the gringos moving here. The number of ex-pats living in Mexico is a drop in a bucket of 110 million people. 

The gringos that are destroying Mexico are the ones in Washington who insist on continuing this failed war on drugs.


----------



## stilltraveling

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi ptrichmondmike;
> 
> I'd say for the most part no, they're not having an negative impact on Mexico. But specifically in some parts like Cabo San Lucas - yes!


There was no Cabo San Lucas before the Hollywood elite showed up in the 1940s. Cabo was at best a wide spot in a dirt road with a few fishing boats dragged onto the beach back then. Now its an actual city with a thriving tourist industry that is not only popular with gringos, but also very popular with Mexicans. Not exactly "destroying" if you ask me.


----------



## joaquinx

stilltraveling said:


> . . . who insist on continuing this failed war on drugs.


We do need a solution. What's yours?


----------



## stilltraveling

TundraGreen said:


> I suppose that is true.
> And US citizens are ruining the US.
> Are Canadians ruining Canada?


Bite your tongue! Canadians are making Canada great!


----------



## stilltraveling

ptrichmondmike said:


> Mexico City, 1971. 7:00 a.m. Chilaquiles con crema. cAFE DE OLLA. MUY sabrosa!


Cafe de olla is like starter fluid. There's nothing better to get this old engine going on a cold morning. :clap2:


----------



## stilltraveling

joaquinx said:


> We do need a solution. What's yours?


Ending prohibition and treating addiction like a public health problem instead of like a military interdiction.


----------



## mickisue1

edgeee said:


> can i get a HURRAH for Waffle House?


Nope.

Nor, even though I DO live in the state of deep fried cheese curds, can you get anything less than a mild gagging sound at the description of poutine.

Or deep fried cheese curds, for that matter.


----------



## stilltraveling

mickisue1 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Nor, even though I DO live in the state of deep fried cheese curds, can you get anything less than a mild gagging sound at the description of poutine.


Some of my best friends are poutines . . . oh wait, slightly different word.


----------



## edgeee

Quote from joaquinx:
"We do need a solution. What's yours?"



stilltraveling said:


> Ending prohibition and treating addiction like a public health problem instead of like a military interdiction.


being a practical person, or at least someone who wants to be practical,
it's not hard to use a few facts to show that what we do now isn't working.

the $$ spent on the 'war on drugs' is almost as bad as the wars we've been busy losing in other parts of the world, but in this case, the bad results are right here at home, a constant reminder that we are getting it wrong.

our prison population is absurd, mainly because so many are incarcerated for victimless crimes.
the cost of keeping them under lock-and-key is staggering.
recidivation rates are ridiculous. 
community outreach programs are a much better use of the money.

prison does not rehabilitate, it is a classroom for professional criminals.
the younger they go in, the quicker they become a bigger part of the problem.
it's not about morality, or lack of it, it's about opportunities.
when you have none, you create them, even if it's illegal to do so.

compare billions spent to accomplish nothing,
to billions of income from regulating marijuana.

i'm no economist, but i can add and subtract.
and i'm aware of how well prohibition DID NOT work.

unfortunately, there is no law prohibiting stupidity.
but then, if there was, who would run things?


----------



## edgeee

stilltraveling said:


> Some of my best friends are poutines . . . oh wait, slightly different word.


that's ok.
don't pout about it.
i doubt it counts anyway.


----------



## conklinwh

stilltraveling said:


> Ending prohibition and treating addiction like a public health problem instead of like a military interdiction.


I tend to agree with you. My concern would be the impact of such a change on Mexico. As I've said before, the capos will take their money and move on but I doubt the remnants of the cartels will turn to bagging groceries.


----------



## Longford

> ... the 2010 MX Census show(s) San Miguel de Allende has 160,383 residents (that includes not only the half of that number or so who live within the city of San Miguel, but the other half or so that live in the 540+ communities surrounding SMA that are included in SMA services like police protection.
> 
> But surprising ... the INEGI Census figures (state) that only *2,518 of those residents were born in the US, and 589 more were born in other foreign countries*


The above quotes are from a currrent discussion underway at this San Miguel de Allende web forum: How many expats are in Mexico, SMA, Lakeside? - Falling...in Love with San Miguel Forums

The discussion I've linked provides additional helpful/useful/enlightening information which may surprise many. But, the bottom line is ... the often repeated criticism of San Miguel de Allende as being over-run by "******" residents is not factually accurate.


----------



## FHBOY

stilltraveling said:


> Cafe de olla is like starter fluid. There's nothing better to get this old engine going on a cold morning. :clap2:


Makes a double shot latte at Bucks for Stars seem like decaf - can't wait to try it.

Hey, where's the nearest all night movie theatre at? Seems like this will do wonders for insomnia!


----------



## stilltraveling

conklinwh said:


> I tend to agree with you. My concern would be the impact of such a change on Mexico. As I've said before, the capos will take their money and move on but I doubt the remnants of the cartels will turn to bagging groceries.


It doesn't matter what they turn to. They won't have drug trafficking as an option because it will be done by legitimate companies. The important point is that they will no longer have the resources to outgun law enforcement or buy them off. 

What did all the moonshine runners turn to when alcohol prohibition ended in the US? 

For that matter, when was the last time you saw beer distributors shooting it out over territory?


----------



## edgeee

conklinwh said:


> I tend to agree with you. My concern would be the impact of such a change on Mexico. As I've said before, the capos will take their money and move on but I doubt the remnants of the cartels will turn to bagging groceries.


yours is a valid concern.
if the demand in USA withers, what do the cartel bosses do?
they will have to sell their wares to whatever buyers they can find.
it opens the question of how would the USA handle decriminalization.

it seems logical that the USA should buy from them, but that opens another can of worms that no one wants to eat.
which means it won't happen.
my guess is they would follow the path of least resistance, most people do.
they would likely continue, in a reduced way, but also branch out to more profitable endeavors.

if so, then Mexico would have a plentiful supply of illicit drugs, and more kidnappings.

i hope not, but it could happen.
i would like to hear what others think about this.
the only way to deal with it is to explore ideas.


----------



## FHBOY

I suppose the Aztecs looed to the east and said, "There goes the neighborhood!" sort of like the native cultures of the rest of the Americas. Somehow I cannot see the "influx" of gringos having an iota of the influence, or ruination, of Mexico, any more that gaijin are ruining Japan. What I can see is with the advent of sophisticated communication and travel ease, the export and homogenization of "******" icons, big box stores, McD, Home Depot, TV etc. 

The question in my mind is this "ruination" or "evolutionary change"?

I still do not see hoards of gringos coming south over the border to get to Mexico. They/We are still a drop in the bucket - it is just that they/we make a very large noise when we drop in. I do not see gringos as Spaniards who are/will destroy a culture.


----------



## stilltraveling

edgeee said:


> my guess is they would follow the path of least resistance, most people do.
> they would likely continue, in a reduced way, but also branch out to more profitable endeavors.


You're missing a key point here: if drugs are not illegal there's no market for organized crime. We buy booze at the Oxxo, not from a criminal. When alcohol was illegal in the US, it stimulated organized crime like no other factor in history. Sure, they branched out after the end of prohibition, but they branched out to drugs which are pound for pound thousands of times more profitable than alcohol. What product can these people turn to if drugs are available at the Oxxo right next to the tequila? 

Yes, in the immediate aftermath of ending prohibition, many of these criminals will turn to kidnapping, robbing etc. just like some moonshine runners did. However, they'll have to do it without the resources to buy off the police and the courts, without the resources to buy tons of military weapons, and without the resources to continue recruiting new members. The police won't be wasting time and resources tracking down drug runners and will quickly make kidnapping and robbery too difficult to be very profitable, just like it is in the US.


----------



## edgeee

stilltraveling said:


> You're missing a key point here: if drugs are not illegal there's no market for organized crime. We buy booze at the Oxxo, not from a criminal. When alcohol was illegal in the US, it stimulated organized crime like no other factor in history. Sure, they branched out after the end of prohibition, but they branched out to drugs which are pound for pound thousands of times more profitable than alcohol. What product can these people turn to if drugs are available at the Oxxo right next to the tequila?
> 
> Yes, in the immediate aftermath of ending prohibition, many of these criminals will turn to kidnapping, robbing etc. just like some moonshine runners did. However, they'll have to do it without the resources to buy off the police and the courts, without the resources to buy tons of military weapons, and without the resources to continue recruiting new members. The police won't be wasting time and resources tracking down drug runners and will quickly make kidnapping and robbery too difficult to be very profitable, just like it is in the US.


be careful now.
_"if drugs are not illegal there's no market for organized crime"_
i agree with you in most cases, but not this. organized crime will always find a market - or create one.
organized crime will always find a way to survive and thrive.
i have seen it first hand.
in Las Vegas, the mob doesn't own many casinos anymore.
but they do have a hand in many other endeavors.

one of the old bosses dressed me down good one day.
i happened to be a employee in his 'legitimate' business.
it scared me so much i was speechless, and that doesn't happen often.
thankfully i was smart enough to just agree with him and walk away.

however, it sounds like you are discounting the involvement of the police and other authorities in this future.
i am assuming they will still be as honest/crooked as they have ever been.
if so, the problem doesn't go away, it just shows a different face.
there is still another demon waiting on the horizon. no one knows for sure what it will be.
but you can be sure the cartels will not go away.
they will look for new victims.
they want money and power, and nothing will stop them from going after it.

just letting my imagination run wild, if they looked for the highest return on investment, sex slaves would be the kind of thing they would like.
just thought you ought to know.

i don't want to see this sort of thing, but i think it's foolish to dismiss it as a possibility.

it's like riding a bucking bronc.
you want to stay on top of the horse as long as you can.
the horse will do anything to get you off his back.
the horse knows which direction he's going next, but you don't.
so you have to be prepared to counter a move in any direction.
good luck with that.


----------



## TundraGreen

stilltraveling said:


> You're missing a key point here: if drugs are not illegal there's no market for organized crime. We buy booze at the Oxxo, not from a criminal. When alcohol was illegal in the US, it stimulated organized crime like no other factor in history. Sure, they branched out after the end of prohibition, but they branched out to drugs which are pound for pound thousands of times more profitable than alcohol. What product can these people turn to if drugs are available at the Oxxo right next to the tequila?
> 
> Yes, in the immediate aftermath of ending prohibition, many of these criminals will turn to kidnapping, robbing etc. just like some moonshine runners did. However, they'll have to do it without the resources to buy off the police and the courts, without the resources to buy tons of military weapons, and without the resources to continue recruiting new members. The police won't be wasting time and resources tracking down drug runners and will quickly make kidnapping and robbery too difficult to be very profitable, just like it is in the US.


Agreed. Ending prohibition, excuse me, legalizing drugs, won't end the problems overnight. Just as the mafia in the US turned to other crimes after prohibition ended in the 1930s, so the drug cartels will continue with other crimes. They are too big and well organized to just go away. But as StillTraveling notes, it will take away a huge source of revenue for them. In addition, the legal sale of drugs will be subject to taxes and quality control. 

Interesting historical side note: During the alcohol prohibition, there was a healthy trade in smuggling alcohol into the US from Canada.


----------



## joaquinx

edgeee said:


> the $$ spent on the 'war on drugs' is almost as bad as the wars we've been busy losing in other parts of the world, but in this case, the bad results are right here at home, a constant reminder that we are getting it wrong.


I remember the fuss over Vietnam, a war fought by politicians who wanted to appear to be more anti-communist than the challenger from the other party and accusing everyone else of being "soft on communism."



> our prison population is absurd, mainly because so many are incarcerated for victimless crimes.
> the cost of keeping them under lock-and-key is staggering.
> recidivation rates are ridiculous.
> community outreach programs are a much better use of the money.


I don't remember the exact statistics, but over 50% of those incarcerated are there for drug related crimes, i.e. selling or using. There are way too many politicians hoping to satify the overly rightous by being "tough on crime."


----------



## FHBOY

TundraGreen said:


> Agreed. Ending prohibition, excuse me, legalizing drugs, won't end the problems overnight. Just as the mafia in the US turned to other crimes after prohibition ended in the 1930s, so the drug cartels will continue with other crimes. They are too big and well organized to just go away. But as StillTraveling notes, it will take away a huge source of revenue for them. In addition, the legal sale of drugs will be subject to taxes and quality control.
> 
> Interesting historical side note: During the alcohol prohibition, there was a healthy trade in smuggling alcohol into the US from Canada.


I worked in the Newark area of New Jersey in the early 80's. I worked with people who were liquor importers, all nice a legitimate, genteel folks to have dinner with. These same folks, and in some cases, their parents were the Jersey bootleggers until the repeal of prohibition. Yep, what a difference an amendment makes.


----------



## conklinwh

stilltraveling said:


> It doesn't matter what they turn to. They won't have drug trafficking as an option because it will be done by legitimate companies. The important point is that they will no longer have the resources to outgun law enforcement or buy them off.
> 
> What did all the moonshine runners turn to when alcohol prohibition ended in the US?
> 
> For that matter, when was the last time you saw beer distributors shooting it out over territory?


I think that a better analogy would be the families after prohibition-answer: loan sharking, extortion, prostitution, muggings, kidnapping...

I'm all for the legalization but it isn't a panacea to crime in Mexico and there will need be a very aggressive push combining alternate lifestyles as well as enforcement.


----------



## stilltraveling

edgeee said:


> organized crime will always find a market - or create one.


I'm afraid I don't see the logic here. What market will they create? Breakfast cereal? Drugs were the market they created when alcohol prohibition ended. Name another product that costs $8 per kilo to manufacture and sells for $50K on the street. 



> organized crime will always find a way to survive and thrive.


Sure they will, but they won't have the $100 billion annual injection they currently get from drugs. 



> in Las Vegas, the mob doesn't own many casinos anymore.
> but they do have a hand in many other endeavors.


Sure, they sell drugs. 



> however, it sounds like you are discounting the involvement of the police and other authorities in this future.
> i am assuming they will still be as honest/crooked as they have ever been.


And who's going to pay them to stay crooked? You're completely ignoring the fact that prohibition is what gives organized crime the resources to buy off police in the first place. In addition, the reason they do it is because police are paid to track them down and therefore need to be bought. 



> if so, the problem doesn't go away, it just shows a different face.
> there is still another demon waiting on the horizon. no one knows for sure what it will be.


Whatever it is, maybe next time we won't outlaw it and turn it into a profitable business. 



> they want money and power, and nothing will stop them from going after it.


Everyone wants money and power. That doesn't change the fact that it is the HUGE profit margins of drug trafficking that gives it to them. 



> just letting my imagination run wild, if they looked for the highest return on investment, sex slaves would be the kind of thing they would like.


They already do that. Moving a 50 kg girl will never be as profitable as moving 50 kg of cocaine nor is it as easy. We're talking about a different problem here anyway.


----------



## stilltraveling

TundraGreen said:


> Interesting historical side note: During the alcohol prohibition, there was a healthy trade in smuggling alcohol into the US from Canada.


It made the Kennedy's rich . . . and then they turned to another business to accumulate wealth and power.


----------



## stilltraveling

joaquinx said:


> I don't remember the exact statistics, but over 50% of those incarcerated are there for drug related crimes, i.e. selling or using. There are way too many politicians hoping to satify the overly rightous by being "tough on crime."


And lining their pockets with donations from the for-profit prison industry.


----------



## stilltraveling

conklinwh said:


> I think that a better analogy would be the families after prohibition-answer: loan sharking, extortion, prostitution, muggings, kidnapping...
> 
> I'm all for the legalization but it isn't a panacea to crime in Mexico and there will need be a very aggressive push combining alternate lifestyles as well as enforcement.


They already do all those things. The difference is they do it in an environment where police are spending all their resources looking for drugs. 

I never said it was a panacea. However, there is no disputing that it is the single largest cause of homicides in Mexico. This problem is responsible for over 15k deaths per year in Mexico and could be solved by simply passing a law. When you have the ability to save 15k lives per year through legislation, it really should be at the top of the agenda.


----------



## edgeee

i don't want to get too carried away here, since i am in the witness protection program.
(just kidding.)
but it seems like i am in the middle of a bunch of non-believers. . .
i don't really want to burst your bubble, but it's the only way i know to get you out of it.

organized crime is something most people don't begin to understand.
especially people who are 'sheltered' by good jobs and personal safety.
everyone thinks it doesn't apply to them.
it does and it will.
insulation from it is what makes you think it's not important.
once it hits home, you will become a convert.
why does it make more sense to be ignorant until you become a victim?

maybe because they haven't died yet, nor has anyone they know.
eventually, that will change.
you don't have to wait for someone you love to die before you become aware.
but if you wait long enough, it will happen.
when it does, will you wonder if you should have done something sooner?

Are gringos destroying Mexico?
yes and no.
we sorta invented greed to the nth power, but there is no copyright on ideas.

Mexican people will find their own way to deal with this threat, as they always have.
they may rise up and kill the interlopers and be done with it.
(i doubt it, but i root for it.)
or they will do what they have always done.

(pardon me while i indulge a weaknesss.)
in _the Magnificent Seven_, Calvera says...
"If God didn't want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep."
which works very well within the context of the movie,
but i suspect it applies to life in general.

the Mexico i know is all mystery and legend, since i have not been there.
but i'm pretty sure the America i know is a herd i don't want to be part of.


----------



## Tikistar

Destroying Mexico? No more than the illegals here in the US. US brings so much good to Mexico. Good example is the caring US and Canadian citizens working to help homeless dogs, and treatment of animals. God bless'em!!!

Check out the good being done in Puerto Vallarta by the super expats!


----------



## mickisue1

Tikistar said:


> Destroying Mexico? No more than the illegals here in the US. US brings so much good to Mexico. Good example is the caring US and Canadian citizens working to help homeless dogs, and treatment of animals. God bless'em!!!
> 
> Check out the good being done in Puerto Vallarta by the super expats!


With all due respect, the money being spent on the homeless animals might better be spent on books and healthy food for kids in schools in the poorest parts of MX. 

Poorly educated, ill-fed people tend not to consider animal welfare a high priority.

Bringing more Mexicans into the middle class will do more than any group of expats who are running animal shelters can, for the welfare of humans AND animals.


----------



## stilltraveling

mickisue1 said:


> With all due respect, the money being spent on the homeless animals might better be spent on books and healthy food for kids in schools in the poorest parts of MX.


There are many public health problems that need to be addressed, stray animals being one of them. When dealing with volunteerism, it's best to let individuals address those problems they personally feel are important rather than try to direct their volunteer effort as if it were a tax.


----------



## Souper

joaquinx said:


> I don't remember the exact statistics, but over 50% of those incarcerated are there for drug related crimes, i.e. selling or using. There are way too many politicians hoping to satify the overly rightous by being "tough on crime."


Yes, most crimes are drug related, but they are not buying and selling drug crimes, they are burglary, robbery, murder, etc. 
The majority of crimes have an addiction behind the scenes, but 50% are not in prison for simply buying or selling drugs. People commit crimes to support their habit.


----------



## mickisue1

stilltraveling said:


> There are many public health problems that need to be addressed, stray animals being one of them. When dealing with volunteerism, it's best to let individuals address those problems they personally feel are important rather than try to direct their volunteer effort as if it were a tax.


I agree to a point.

Sometimes people will modify their efforts, not because they are badgered into doing so, but because they learn that those efforts may be more effective, in the long run, if they direct them elsewhere.

Sometimes they won't. 

(There is no smily shrugging its shoulders. Too bad.)


----------



## tepetapan

mickisue1 said:


> I agree to a point.
> 
> Sometimes people will modify their efforts, not because they are badgered into doing so, but because they learn that those efforts may be more effective, in the long run, if they direct them elsewhere.
> 
> Sometimes they won't.
> 
> (There is no smily shrugging its shoulders. Too bad.)


 Putting street dogs ahead of education, health and employment of humans is a prime example of how Gringos are ruining Mexico. Mexicans generally do not fall for this type of insanity, they have more important things on the agenda, like their human family.


----------



## joaquinx

Souper said:


> Yes, most crimes are drug related, but they are not buying and selling drug crimes, they are burglary, robbery, murder, etc.
> The majority of crimes have an addiction behind the scenes, but 50% are not in prison for simply buying or selling drugs. People commit crimes to support their habit.


You picked a nit as I said it was drug related. I should have used "e.g." rather than "i.e."


----------



## stilltraveling

tepetapan said:


> Putting street dogs ahead of education, health and employment of humans is a prime example of how Gringos are ruining Mexico. Mexicans generally do not fall for this type of insanity, they have more important things on the agenda, like their human family.


Education, health and employment are being addressed by the government. In the meantime, the government is doing nothing to deal with stray animals that are carrying disease throughout our communities. It's a question of priorities and limited resources. 

A friend of mine was attacked by stray dogs a couple months back and had to endure me stitching her up and administering weekly rabies vaccine into her belly. The ironic thing is she works in government on matters of public health and stray animals wasn't even on her radar. It's a problem that needs to be addressed. The government doesn't have the resources to get to it right now. 

Instead of putting these people down for choosing a different priority than your own, you should be applauding them for investing their time, money and effort in their adopted community. Another example of no good deed going unpunished (or criticized in cyberspace).


----------



## stilltraveling

mickisue1 said:


> I agree to a point.
> 
> Sometimes people will modify their efforts, not because they are badgered into doing so, but because they learn that those efforts may be more effective, in the long run, if they direct them elsewhere.
> 
> Sometimes they won't.
> 
> (There is no smily shrugging its shoulders. Too bad.)


The government spends billions on education, poverty relief, infrastructure, etc. How much of impact would the limited resources of these individuals have on any of these problems? People should be commended for trying to make a difference where they can, not derided for not addressing what you believe to be the highest priority.


----------



## stilltraveling

Souper said:


> Yes, most crimes are drug related, but they are not buying and selling drug crimes, they are burglary, robbery, murder, etc.
> The majority of crimes have an addiction behind the scenes, but 50% are not in prison for simply buying or selling drugs. People commit crimes to support their habit.


Actually, 50% are in prison for simple possession. Those are the "victim-less crimes" that are driving the privatized prison system.



> In light of that, let us review some statistics which demonstrate just how destructive the mass incarceration of victimless criminals has become to our society. The 2009 federal prison population consisted of:
> 
> Drugs 50.7%
> Public-order 35.0%,
> Violent 7.9%
> Property 5.8%
> Other .7%


http://www.libertariannews.org/2011...titutes-86-of-the-american-prison-population/


----------



## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> With all due respect, the money being spent on the homeless animals might better be spent on books and healthy food for kids in schools in the poorest parts of MX.
> 
> Poorly educated, ill-fed people tend not to consider animal welfare a high priority.
> 
> Bringing more Mexicans into the middle class will do more than any group of expats who are running animal shelters can, for the welfare of humans AND animals.


Mickie, I've got to agree somewhat with StillTrav. People have different niches of causes, some like animals, others kids, still others education, social services, etc. One does not preclude the other, however, and all are necessary for us to call ourselves a society. The five rescue cats in our home that allow us to live with them got here because we contribute to the local no-kill shelter and yet my volunteer work is at an outreach center in an urban area in Baltimore, where we feed lunch, provide clothing and social services. So you can do a couple of things. I'm sure that is what you meant.

SWMBO is looking to work/volunteer at the shelter in San Antonio when we get down there. That's her cup of tea, but her skills in teaching art to kids is also on the top of her list (she's been doing that for over 30 years!)

Yes, the $$$ that is used in saving animals, spaying and neutering and treating those with diseases is not going to kids and education, but for every $$$ given to animals, there is another $$$ for the kids from someone else.

There is so much that needs our live and attention. What *is important* is *how* we heal the world [in Hebrew, Tikkun Olam], not *what part* of the world we choose to heal as long as it is for the benefit of all.


----------



## edgeee

no doubt people who try to help are doing more to help than those who don't.
it's sorta dumb to say that, but the obvious is not always obvious.
(and 'help' is not always helpful.)

any society should gladly welcome whatever help is available,
no matter what form it takes. (well, maybe not. the 'form it takes' deserves consideration.)
but that doesn't mean no one will find fault with it.

people who are part of a crusade will always question those who have a different purpose than their own.
i myself am very big on health care and education, so i get upset with those who spend their efforts to save the desert tortoise.
it's a matter of priorities, and everyone has their own list.

as ST points out, the stray animal problem is bigger than just stray animals being annoying.

getting inside someone's head and changing the way they think is a tall order.
and it gets worse.
logic and reason make no difference to an unreasonable person.
sanity has no place in an insane situation.

and this is why the cartels will always be a problem.
gringos can come and go, and Mexico will still be Mexico.
it may be slightly different, but the problem remains.

a small group of people have control and they will not give it up easily.
if the situation changes - decriminalization of drugs in the US, for example - those people will still want to maintain the control they have.
it just means they will make changes of their own.
maybe they will focus on selling meth to the Chinese, who knows?

but don't think they will go away.
they won't.

organized crime is a business model that works well for those who run it.
and they really don't care about what makes sense to you and me.
their values are their own, and you can't really understand them until you stand next to them.
i have.
you don't want to be there.
i hope you never have to.
but make no mistake, what they do will have an impact on you and the ones you love.

i can't say what anyone should do about it.
there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to change it.
it is what it is.
but i can say this with conviction.
ignoring it will not make it disappear, and wishful thinking doesn't work.


----------



## brigidq

*wow.*

i think the author is painting the ex pat community in san miguel with much too broad a brush. he also displays some homophobia singling out gay pride parades as his examples of creeping americanism. i live in san miguel at least 6 months out of the year and the majority of americans i know either speak spanish or are trying to learn to speak the language. sure, some have tried and given up. it isn't easy for folk over 65 to learn a new language. additionally, many expats also live in very mixed mexican/ex pat communities or in predominantly mexican communities. i know i do. the myth of the wealthy american in san miguel is just that--a myth. in fact, anyone who subscribes to the san miguel civil list might be amazed at the number of u.s. expats not only looking for long-term rental housing, but for rental housing under $400 usd per month. this is not to say that there aren't wealthy residents of san miguel--both american and mexican. i suspect there are wealthy mexicans in most every city in mexico. also, americans, and other ex pats, contribute significantly to san miguel's economy and their influence has helped to bolster the city's tourism industry--an industry which supports showcasing mexican culture and customs. overall the author's riff on americans in san miguel is overly simplistic, signifying that he may not have ever ventured very far from el jardin.


----------



## mickisue1

Hi, Brigid, welcome to the forum.

May I make a suggestion?

Your post had many good ideas in it, but the lack of punctuation and paragraph breaks made it difficult to read.

I, for one, would be able to appreciate your writing even more, with those two things added. The breaks, especially, let the reader take a mental breath, before going on to the next idea.

Again, WELCOME!


----------



## brigidq

thanks for the suggestions. i think if you look closely you will see i do have punctuation. i think it might be some of my longer sentences that make it difficult for you to read my post. also, the small script and lack of paragraphs you mention probably contribute too. i will try to remember to break up my thoughts with shorter sentences and paragraphs in future.


----------



## Isla Verde

brigidq said:


> thanks for the suggestions. i think if you look closely you will see i do have punctuation. i think it might be some of my longer sentences that make it difficult for you to read my post. also, the small script and lack of paragraphs you mention probably contribute too. i will try to remember to break up my thoughts with shorter sentences and paragraphs in future.


I also enjoyed reading your first post. I think it's the lack of capital letters at the beginning of each sentence that makes it hard to read.


----------



## Detailman

Isla Verde said:


> I also enjoyed reading your first post. I think it's the lack of capital letters at the beginning of each sentence that makes it hard to read.


I wonder if edgeee is contagious?


----------



## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> I wonder if edgeee is contagious?


Could be. Let's hope it doesn't infect do many of us!


----------



## conklinwh

brigidq said:


> i think the author is painting the ex pat community in san miguel with much too broad a brush. he also displays some homophobia singling out gay pride parades as his examples of creeping americanism. i live in san miguel at least 6 months out of the year and the majority of americans i know either speak spanish or are trying to learn to speak the language. sure, some have tried and given up. it isn't easy for folk over 65 to learn a new language. additionally, many expats also live in very mixed mexican/ex pat communities or in predominantly mexican communities. i know i do. the myth of the wealthy american in san miguel is just that--a myth. in fact, anyone who subscribes to the san miguel civil list might be amazed at the number of u.s. expats not only looking for long-term rental housing, but for rental housing under $400 usd per month. this is not to say that there aren't wealthy residents of san miguel--both american and mexican. i suspect there are wealthy mexicans in most every city in mexico. also, americans, and other ex pats, contribute significantly to san miguel's economy and their influence has helped to bolster the city's tourism industry--an industry which supports showcasing mexican culture and customs. overall the author's riff on americans in san miguel is overly simplistic, signifying that he may not have ever ventured very far from el jardin.


Bridgid, I had to go back about 6 pages to find the link to Bowers. I certainly agree with you. Sort of shows what someone will say to sell books.


----------



## Isla Verde

Isla Verde said:


> Could be. Let's hope it doesn't infect do many of us!


Ooops, I meant to write "too" many of us. I wonder what sort of mistake that was . . .


----------



## bibarnes

*Gringos Destrying Mexico*

I think the word destroying is wrong, changing is a more appropriate term. Back in the late 1800's early W's thousands of immigrants came to the US. Many did not assimilate but migrated to communities where other's of their ethnic backgrounds already lived. In time they became more Americanized and also the places they lived became a little like their old homes.

This seems to be what is happening in Mexico. The Lake Chapala area may have more Gringos that native Mexicans living here, especially during the winter months with a large influx from the northern states and Canada. With them comes money and lots of it. It is spent in the Mercado's, tiendas, aborotes and many other places. I daresay that if the ****** community was removed that a great financial hardship would befall this area. Most of my friends are trying to assimilate and at the same time adjust. W are not as tolerant of being told mañana when we know it means not today. This has caused an increase in the level of service for all residents.

The US was changed because of immigrants and Mexico will also. Are some of the changes bad? Certainly, but I think the majority is for the better.


----------



## Anonimo

bibarnes; what is the "w" to which you refer?



> Back in the late 1800's early W's thousands of immigrants came to the US. Many did not assimilate but migrated to communities where other's of their ethnic backgrounds already lived.


----------

