# Squats in Spain



## gerrit

First of all, no, no plans myself to move out of my perfectly legal rented flat (despite the rather expensive rental price every month) but purely out of interest...

Recently one of the poetry readings in which I participated was organised in the basement of a squat, where all sorts of workshops were done. Some of the other poets lived in the squat upstairs. Near my workplace there's a squat as well which even doesn't have proper glass in the windows, a door that seems to be very much broken, but somehow they got functioning light and running water and live there with 10 or more people including a few young kids 

Purely out of interest, but how do those squatters get the electricity and water if they in theory are not officially living there? :confused2: Also, how can they leave for work and be not worried to arrive "home" and find the squat sealed off with no way to get back in and recover their possessions?



Just interested, no plans to go squatting myself... One of my favourite musicians (and a big inspiration for my own writings) did live in a squat in London for a while before he managed to get a legal income. Maybe my interest stems from that fact, or maybe from the fact that I see those squatters near work have lights and running water and organise barbeque parties on the roof without the owner of the house apparently caring to even check if the house is being used or not :confused2:


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## gus-lopez

Some months back I watched a Spanish programme, Comando Actualidad, which highlighted this problem. They told the story of an elderly Spanish couple who left their flat to visit family & when they came back squatters had moved in & they were still unable to return weeks later ! Apparently it's quite a problem . Most owners of empty properties still pay for the services as it's cheaper than having them disconnectd / re- connected ,so once they are in everythings there, & the owners paying the bills !!!


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## gerrit

Seriously? Because I know of some squats that have been occupied for a few years. Some have like a sort of "squat estate agency" where people can put themselves on a waiting list for a room in a squat, and in some other squats I've seen families (including children and elderly) living in a squat with 10 or more. It sounds odd that someone would leave his property unused without renting it out or selling it, not return for a long time, but continue to pay bills without wondering who is consuming the electricity and water in the first place... In some of those squats where squatters have been living for years, I guess the owners simply don't care about the property and, as long as they have no financial worries, just forget about the case or don't think further?

I heard stories about some squats tapping electricity from neighbouring regularly rented houses but that sounds quite odd to me. If I'd see an unusually high electricity bill coming in, I'd not just pay it without wondering who has used that extra amount of electricity...




Mind, I don't know how laws are here in Spain, but in the Benelux it is actually legal to occupy a house when it's been abandoned for a year onwards. So once the owner doesn't take action within that year, the squatter -without paying bills- is seen as having the right to be there and it becomes quite tricky to get them back out. Not sure if Spain has any similar law that sort of legalises the squatters' status after a certain amount of time?


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## Gael

*Squatters in Spain.*

I can answer your question ; as to why the owners go on paying for the Utilities in their occupied houses : it's against the LAW to turn the Utilities off, thus depriving their squatter/s of their "Human rights" to water, lighting, heating, etc.

I have had a squatter living in my home for almost a year.

He broke in, changed the lock on the patio door and bolted the main door, having removed both the lock and handle, leaving two rather large holes in the very heavy wooden door to greet the Police, called when we discovered someone was in the house, without permission, refusing to open the door.

When the Police arrived he then flung open the main ( holed,lock and handle-less )
door with a flourish, crying "Hello (to me ) how nice of you to come and visit !"

This, after hiding in the house, for about an hour and refusing to answer to the knocking of myself, my friend just arrived from Norway to stay with me and my two Finnish friends who live next door. And two Policemen.

He claimed that he had a "verbal contract" (as valid in Law as a written contract )
TO LIVE IN MY HOUSE FOR THREE YEARS.
At this point I did not even know this person's name.

I do now : BARTOLOME SANCHEZ SANCHEZ. 

About 35 and a gardener, from Agua Dulce, but living in Fuengirola for some years.
Ex boyfriend of Cordelia, late of "La Cepa" in Constitution Plaza, Fuengirola.
( I hasten to say, I don't think she has anything to do with this )

When I went to go in, to fetch my deeds to show ownership of my home, the Police told me I had no "right to enter" as he was "in possession" and further-more they advised me to stay well clear of him, as they thought him "unstable".

I was left with one change of clothes, in the garments and shoes I stood in.
All my possessions where, and may or may not be, in my house.

I have a Lawyer, to whom I have paid 2.000.00.Euros so far and to whom I shall need to pay at least 1.000.00.Euros more and I await the Spanish Court.

At this moment, January 2011, no-one has any idea when my turn might be.
I pay all the expenses pertaining to my house, he lives there, paying nothing whilst I have stay where I can.

And please don't think this has anything to do with being "non-Spanish".......

I heard of a Spanish man, who lives in his car, parked outside his own apartment,
where-in a squatter lives in comfort. Just before Christmas, a Spanish couple, not young, finally regained their home after more than a year.......there are thousands of cases like this, all over Spain. It clearly states, in the Spanish Constitution, that it is a criminal offence to deprive an "individual" of their rightful abode.

But it is the squatters who are gaining from this Law, not the home-owners.
Why don't they change the Law ? That is a good question.


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## thrax

Gael said:


> I can answer your question ; as to why the owners go on paying for the Utilities in their occupied houses : it's against the LAW to turn the Utilities off, thus depriving their squatter/s of their "Human rights" to water, lighting, heating, etc.
> 
> I have had a squatter living in my home for almost a year.
> 
> He broke in, changed the lock on the patio door and bolted the main door, having removed both the lock and handle, leaving two rather large holes in the very heavy wooden door to greet the Police, called when we discovered someone was in the house, without permission, refusing to open the door.
> 
> When the Police arrived he then flung open the main ( holed,lock and handle-less )
> door with a flourish, crying "Hello (to me ) how nice of you to come and visit !"
> 
> This, after hiding in the house, for about an hour and refusing to answer to the knocking of myself, my friend just arrived from Norway to stay with me and my two Finnish friends who live next door. And two Policemen.
> 
> He claimed that he had a "verbal contract" (as valid in Law as a written contract )
> TO LIVE IN MY HOUSE FOR THREE YEARS.
> At this point I did not even know this person's name.
> 
> I do now : BARTOLOME SANCHEZ SANCHEZ.
> 
> About 35 and a gardener, from Agua Dulce, but living in Fuengirola for some years.
> Ex boyfriend of Cordelia, late of "La Cepa" in Constitution Plaza, Fuengirola.
> ( I hasten to say, I don't think she has anything to do with this )
> 
> When I went to go in, to fetch my deeds to show ownership of my home, the Police told me I had no "right to enter" as he was "in possession" and further-more they advised me to stay well clear of him, as they thought him "unstable".
> 
> I was left with one change of clothes, in the garments and shoes I stood in.
> All my possessions where, and may or may not be, in my house.
> 
> I have a Lawyer, to whom I have paid 2.000.00.Euros so far and to whom I shall need to pay at least 1.000.00.Euros more and I await the Spanish Court.
> 
> At this moment, January 2011, no-one has any idea when my turn might be.
> I pay all the expenses pertaining to my house, he lives there, paying nothing whilst I have stay where I can.
> 
> And please don't think this has anything to do with being "non-Spanish".......
> 
> I heard of a Spanish man, who lives in his car, parked outside his own apartment,
> where-in a squatter lives in comfort. Just before Christmas, a Spanish couple, not young, finally regained their home after more than a year.......there are thousands of cases like this, all over Spain. It clearly states, in the Spanish Constitution, that it is a criminal offence to deprive an "individual" of their rightful abode.
> 
> But it is the squatters who are gaining from this Law, not the home-owners.
> Why don't they change the Law ? That is a good question.


What an absolutely dreadful story. I wish you all the luck for the future and hope this idiot gets removed as soon as possible. I must admit it is something we have discussed. We are renting but there is nothing to stop a squatter moving in when we are out. Then do we have to continue to pay the rent until the agreement expires?? Interesting question.


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## Alcalaina

Gerrit, there is a long history of _okupa_ (occupation of empty abandoned properties) in Barcelona, where squatting is more of a political protest movement than Iit is elsewhere in Spain. You can find out more about this if you Google it.

Squatting has been illegal in Spain since 1996 but it can still be a slow and difficult process to evict squatters, as poor Gael has discovered. 

In England, squatting, like trespass, is a civil rather than a criminal offence, but the minute the squatters commits criminal damage (e.g. breaking a lock) the police can act to remove them. In the 70s there were a lot of licensed squats in empty properties, many owned by the state, which the squatters maintained in good order instead of paying rent. This arrangement helped a lot of homeless families and single people, but I believe it no longer happens. 

Which is a shame, as it seems to me like a sensible compromise. There are two million empty houses in Spain, and while nobody in a civilised country should be without a roof over their head, nobody should be in the situation Gael is in either.


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## VFR

500eu and they would be gone this very night !

There are any number of East Europeans who will do the deed while you are meeting the mayor for a free dinner (they will always turn up for a freebie) and let the squatter know just what fate awaits them should they make a complaint.


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## thrax

Always excellent advice from Alcalaina - you should be a moderator - who moderates the moderators?


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## mrypg9

Whilst it is true that in a civilised country no-one should be without a roof over their heads we should examine this worthy but abstract ideal and see why in each case a person or family may be homeless. 
As it is quite rightly not easy to evict a person from their home either in the UK or Spain there are reasons why this happens.
People who are unable to meet rent or mortgage obligations for reasons beyond their control should be protected and usually are by way of Housing Benefit and so on.
Others who merely assume they have the right to enjoy occupation of a property at someone else's expense have no right to live in said property.
Many squatters wish to enjoy a so-called 'alternative' lifestyle at someone else's expense and justify this by vague concepts such as 'property is theft' and so on.
They are essentially freeloaders, idle parasites who live off the legitimate labours of others.
The former Socialist countries of the Soviet bloc recognised this and made this kind of idle essentially capitalist lifestyle a crime punishable by imprisonment.


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## mrypg9

Thinking about the law in Spain.....the rented property we live in is our only home - we sold other properties before leaving the UK.
So...am I right in assuming that our landlord has no right whatsoever to evict us?


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Thinking about the law in Spain.....the rented property we live in is our only home - we sold other properties before leaving the UK.
> So...am I right in assuming that our landlord has no right whatsoever to evict us?


No, but for historical reasons tenants are better protected than in some parts of the world.

If you have a residential (vivienda contract), and the landlord says at the end of the contract period that you must vacate, you can apply to the court for an extension to your contract for up to five years.

If the landlord sells the property during the life of your contract, the tenant has the right to first refusal. If the landlord does not make this offer and the property is sold, you have the right to have the sale annulled and buy the property yourself for the price declared in the sales documents.

These laws do not apply to a short-term rental, or temporada. Some landlords get round these rights by using a contract stating that the conditions of a temporary (temporada) contract will apply, regardless of the length of stay.


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## Stravinsky

I always understood that it's why a lot of landlords only allowed an 11 month agreement for rentals, but I am wrong in that assumption I guess


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst it is true that in a civilised country no-one should be without a roof over their heads we should examine this worthy but abstract ideal and see why in each case a person or family may be homeless.
> As it is quite rightly not easy to evict a person from their home either in the UK or Spain there are reasons why this happens.
> People who are unable to meet rent or mortgage obligations for reasons beyond their control should be protected and usually are by way of Housing Benefit and so on.
> Others who merely assume they have the right to enjoy occupation of a property at someone else's expense have no right to live in said property.
> Many squatters wish to enjoy a so-called 'alternative' lifestyle at someone else's expense and justify this by vague concepts such as 'property is theft' and so on.
> They are essentially freeloaders, idle parasites who live off the legitimate labours of others.
> The former Socialist countries of the Soviet bloc recognised this and made this kind of idle essentially capitalist lifestyle a crime punishable by imprisonment.


I knew you´d say that ...

Having been part of that scene myself (I had a boyfriend who lived in a squat in Oxford) it was noticeable that most of the squatters were middle-class kids from wealthy families rebelling against their parents´"decadent" lifestyle. After six months of living in squalor and getting their belongings nicked they would go home to mummy and daddy (assuming they would have them back) to appreciate the central heating and a nice clean bathroom. A good life-lesson for them!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I knew you´d say that ...
> 
> Having been part of that scene myself (I had a boyfriend who lived in a squat in Oxford) it was noticeable that most of the squatters were middle-class kids from wealthy families rebelling against their parents´"decadent" lifestyle. After six months of living in squalor and getting their belongings nicked they would go home to mummy and daddy (assuming they would have them back) to appreciate the central heating and a nice clean bathroom. A good life-lesson for them!


When my ex-husband was Housing Chair of a London Borough I saw far too many families whose only 'crime' was to be unable to pay their rent for genuine hardship reasons being evicted. 
But I also came across many examples of the 'undeserving' who knew how to play the system and live off other people.
My sympathies will always be on the side of low-paid working families who play by the rules often to their own detriment.
I'm afraid the Victorians had reason to distinguish between the deserving and undeserving poor.


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## mrypg9

As an addendum to my previous post....I know I must sound like Thatcher's sister sometimes but I have become hardened and cynical over the years...partly because there are so many people who just want to play the system and partly because when resources are scarce you have to make hard choices.
In a different way I've had to develop a 'shield' in order to work effectively for the refugio.
It's not nice taking an old sick dog to be put humanely to sleep because its quality of life is non-existent...watching it die, stroking it. But someone has to do these things.
If you decide to involve yourself in other people's -or animals' - lives and problems you can't avoid doing things that you would rather not do.
It doesn't mean you feel good about it.


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## Gael

Thank you for all the opinions expressed......a little more information ......
"what I wish I'd known "

Having consulted five different Lawyers my big mistake was in phoning the Police !

The "unofficial" but universal advice is : wait until the squatter is out, break back into your own home, change the locks and throw out all evidence ( the squatters clothes,etc. )

I suppose this means that you either never leave your home again without at least one person in it on guard at all times or, second piece of advice, "hire a heavy" to house sit, for a while, have a few words, if the squatter comes back, etc.

As I made the mistake of "making it official" by calling the Police, I can't enter my own home without invitation from the squatter. If I do, I could end up in jail as a trespasser.
And threats, from any quarter, would equally be viewed very seriously to my disfavor.

Oh, and my Home Insurance has been cancelled, as I reported an "unaurthorised occupancy"
so if he decides to burn my house down I'm ruined.
If he has sold my clothes, books and furniture I'm not covered.

I do understand that people have to live somewhere, but so do I.

Do Google "squatter" .....there are hundreds of sites offering advice on "how to squat"
but very little information upon how to make them leave.

I'm aware of the "Ocupa" movement in Barcelona , Madrid, it's wide-spread in Spain and is, to a large extent, a political protest against the near impossible costs to young people of buying their own home.......at the housing peak, here in Malaga it was reported it took one whole income and 20% of the second to service repayments on a very "normal" apartment.

But "my squatter" just wants to live somewhere nice without paying for the pleasure.

He phoned me up ( I presume he got my number from my contract with the Phone Company, which was in my files ) and invited me up, to my house, to "rationalize the situation".
He was quite ready to move out "for a great deal of money ". When I refused to pay him, he phoned the Police and complained I had arrived, unannounced and was "threatening him"
I had to leave and this might go against me in Court, if he is believed.

He chose an occupied house, because it was furnished, with water and light, heating and so on, but more importantly, it had all my "papers" on file.........deeds to the house, contracts with the utility companies etc all my personal papers and photos.........so he could pretend he knew me and that we had a "verbal contract"


I come from Belfast. I left because my business was bombed by the I.R.A. and the thugs had taken over. I came to Spain to get away from the breakdown in law and order, only to have my business here bombed by E.T.A., but that's another story.

The problem with using "bully-boy" tactics is that when these people "do you a wee favor"
you have gone against your own moral judgement and effectively put yourself in their hands.
Never doubt, someday they will want "a wee favor" back.

So, from the Devil to the Deep ......


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## Caz.I

Gael said:


> I can answer your question ; as to why the owners go on paying for the Utilities in their occupied houses : it's against the LAW to turn the Utilities off, thus depriving their squatter/s of their "Human rights" to water, lighting, heating, etc.
> 
> I have had a squatter living in my home for almost a year.
> 
> He broke in, changed the lock on the patio door and bolted the main door, having removed both the lock and handle, leaving two rather large holes in the very heavy wooden door to greet the Police, called when we discovered someone was in the house, without permission, refusing to open the door.
> 
> When the Police arrived he then flung open the main ( holed,lock and handle-less )
> door with a flourish, crying "Hello (to me ) how nice of you to come and visit !"
> 
> This, after hiding in the house, for about an hour and refusing to answer to the knocking of myself, my friend just arrived from Norway to stay with me and my two Finnish friends who live next door. And two Policemen.
> 
> He claimed that he had a "verbal contract" (as valid in Law as a written contract )
> TO LIVE IN MY HOUSE FOR THREE YEARS.
> At this point I did not even know this person's name.
> 
> I do now : BARTOLOME SANCHEZ SANCHEZ.
> 
> About 35 and a gardener, from Agua Dulce, but living in Fuengirola for some years.
> Ex boyfriend of Cordelia, late of "La Cepa" in Constitution Plaza, Fuengirola.
> ( I hasten to say, I don't think she has anything to do with this )
> 
> When I went to go in, to fetch my deeds to show ownership of my home, the Police told me I had no "right to enter" as he was "in possession" and further-more they advised me to stay well clear of him, as they thought him "unstable".
> 
> I was left with one change of clothes, in the garments and shoes I stood in.
> All my possessions where, and may or may not be, in my house.
> 
> I have a Lawyer, to whom I have paid 2.000.00.Euros so far and to whom I shall need to pay at least 1.000.00.Euros more and I await the Spanish Court.
> 
> At this moment, January 2011, no-one has any idea when my turn might be.
> I pay all the expenses pertaining to my house, he lives there, paying nothing whilst I have stay where I can.
> 
> And please don't think this has anything to do with being "non-Spanish".......
> 
> I heard of a Spanish man, who lives in his car, parked outside his own apartment,
> where-in a squatter lives in comfort. Just before Christmas, a Spanish couple, not young, finally regained their home after more than a year.......there are thousands of cases like this, all over Spain. It clearly states, in the Spanish Constitution, that it is a criminal offence to deprive an "individual" of their rightful abode.
> 
> But it is the squatters who are gaining from this Law, not the home-owners.
> Why don't they change the Law ? That is a good question.


But doesnt breaking and entering (and the large holes in the door - which I hope you have taken photos of) prove there could not have been a "verbal contract"? And isnt it you that is deprived of your rightful abode? I hope you have a very good lawyer. 
Or... if, hypothetically speaking, you were to break in (when he goes out) and squat your own home, how would that affect it?


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## Caz.I

Have a friend re-squat it.


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## Caz.I

I have to admit that when I first went to London in the early 80s I reluctantly lived in a couple of squats. The main difference was that they were empty hard-to-let council properties in SE London rather than private properties. In fact, at one point there was a squatters amnesty where the council gave rental contracts to those in the properties in which no one else would live. 

There was a squatters network which could tell you where there were empty, unwanted council properties and they would help you get in. Sometimes, even the neighbours would help by giving candles to the squatters until they got the electricity on. They preferred to live next to inhabited properties rather than empty ones. Although some neighbours who had had bad experiences with squatters encouraged the kids to put bricks through the windows.

Of course that was in the days when they still had surplus council housing stock. Probably very different now.


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## Sonrisa

we had a good experience with OKupa in our summer house in Galicia when I was around 10. 

THe okupa had let him self in by breaking the window and lived in our house for the whole winter, presumably in my mother's room heating it up with our old electrical small fan heater and even carried the TV upstairs to the bedroom. He eat all our tinned food. 
By the summer, when we travelled up to our summer house, he was gone, and the only evidence of the okupa was a broken window, dirty towels and sheets, no food left, and the tv and heater moved to my mums bedroom. And higher electricity bills. 

If only they were all that nice. 


We also had a okupa in my mothers old ford fiesta in Madrid during the freezing winter, early eighties. He let himself into the car every night. My mother who had and still has a big heart, when she realised that the car was being used at night by some poor homeless, made a point of leaving blankets and food everyday inside the car.


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## Gael

The holes in the door, he claims, where there as he was in the process of changing the locks
( he had already changed the patio door ) as he did not feel secure in the house. 
He had not offered me copies as "I had not asked for them".

He claims I called the Police as having already given me 4.000.00.Euros, as three years rental, in advance, I had asked for a further 2.000.00. Euros, the which he had refused.
(That, by the way equals 3.46. Euros per day)

He further states that I didn't give him a written contract, as I wanted to defraud the local Town Hall of the 25% taxes due.

He claims I did give him a copy of my Escritura, Nota Simple, contracts with utility companies, 
fotocopies of my Empadronamiento, passport, and driver's permit.......all dated from around 2.000, the last two out of date and a copy of my rates bill, from 1997, in the previous owner name. All of these were, of course, in my files.

If I break in, I'm trespassing.........but I'm not clear about getting a friend to do it !

Presumably he would have to take them to Court too............hummmmm I'll ask my Lawyer.

Thanks for that, "two heads are always better than one !"


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## Gael

Sonrisa said:


> we had a good experience with OKupa in our summer house in Galicia when I was around 10.
> 
> THe okupa had let him self in by breaking the window and lived in our house for the whole winter, presumably in my mother's room heating it up with our old electrical small fan heater and even carried the TV upstairs to the bedroom. He eat all our tinned food.
> By the summer, when we travelled up to our summer house, he was gone, and the only evidence of the okupa was a broken window, dirty towels and sheets, no food left, and the tv and heater moved to my mums bedroom. And higher electricity bills.
> 
> If only they were all that nice.
> 
> 
> We also had a okupa in my mothers old ford fiesta in Madrid during the freezing winter, early eighties. He let himself into the car every night. My mother who had and still has a big heart, when she realised that the car was being used at night by some poor homeless, made a point of leaving blankets and food everyday inside the car.



Yes, indeed, that's really not too bad and your Mother sounds a real sweetie !


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## xabiaxica

thrax said:


> Always excellent advice from Alcalaina - you should be a moderator - who moderates the moderators?


the BOSS


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## mrypg9

Caz.I said:


> I have to admit that when I first went to London in the early 80s I reluctantly lived in a couple of squats. The main difference was that they were empty hard-to-let council properties in SE London rather than private properties. In fact, at one point there was a squatters amnesty where the council gave rental contracts to those in the properties in which no one else would live.
> 
> There was a squatters network which could tell you where there were empty, unwanted council properties and they would help you get in. Sometimes, even the neighbours would help by giving candles to the squatters until they got the electricity on. They preferred to live next to inhabited properties rather than empty ones. Although some neighbours who had had bad experiences with squatters encouraged the kids to put bricks through the windows.
> 
> Of course that was in the days when they still had surplus council housing stock. Probably very different now.


Yes, very different all over the UK. The 'Right to Buy' policy and the squeeze on finance for social housing put an end to that. There is now very little 'council housing' as such in the UK...the functionof providing affordable social housing has been passed on to Housing Associations, Housing Action Trusts and so on.
It is true that some local authorities allowed some properties to become rundown to the point where they were 'unlettable' and my ex encouraged the use of these properties by squatters pending refurbishment.
I can't imagine that happening now.


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## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> we had a good experience with OKupa in our summer house in Galicia when I was around 10.
> 
> THe okupa had let him self in by breaking the window and lived in our house for the whole winter, presumably in my mother's room heating it up with our old electrical small fan heater and even carried the TV upstairs to the bedroom. He eat all our tinned food.
> By the summer, when we travelled up to our summer house, he was gone, and the only evidence of the okupa was a broken window, dirty towels and sheets, no food left, and the tv and heater moved to my mums bedroom. And higher electricity bills.
> 
> If only they were all that nice.
> 
> 
> .


You and your mother are obviously very tolerant, saintly people.
So...this squatter broke a window, ate your food, ran up electricity bills...and couldn't be bothered to wash the sheets and towels he soiled.
Frankly, he sounds like a selfish inconsiderate s***. A thief. Not nice at all.
He may have been akin to Alcalaina's middle-class squatters...just a parasite happy to sponge off others. For all s/he knew, your mother could have been distressed and financially embarassed as a result of his actions.
But the guy in the car sounds like someone in genuine need.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> When my ex-husband was Housing Chair of a London Borough I saw far too many families whose only 'crime' was to be unable to pay their rent for genuine hardship reasons being evicted.
> But I also came across many examples of the 'undeserving' who knew how to play the system and live off other people.
> My sympathies will always be on the side of low-paid working families who play by the rules often to their own detriment.
> I'm afraid the Victorians had reason to distinguish between the deserving and undeserving poor.


The deserving/undeserving distinction isn't really any more useful today than it was in Victorian times, when it was used to define who should receive relief from the Parish and who should be sent to the workhouse. It is fine for the extremes - the unfortunate hardworking family at one end, the scrounging villains and con-artists like Gael's "guests" at the other. You help the first group back on their feet; you treat the second like the criminals they are.

But most people fall somewhere in the middle, and someone has to make a decision on whether they are deserving or not. In the 19th century this was often the Parish priest; these days it appears to be the tabloid press.

If someone is homeless because he can no longer afford his mortgage repayments after being made redundant deserving or not? He could have taken out insurance, after all. Or a woman who left her home and family because her husband was an alcoholic who wouldn't seek help? Or kids who have become addicted to crack, led down that path by unscrupulous dealers? Or illegal immigrants who believed the lies of the people-traffickers they handed over all their money to? Every homeless person has their own sad story.


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> Always excellent advice from Alcalaina - you should be a moderator - who moderates the moderators?


No no, not me - I have problems sticking to rules, let alone enforcing them on others!!!!


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## Sonrisa

mrypg9 said:


> You and your mother are obviously very tolerant, saintly people.
> So...this squatter broke a window, ate your food, ran up electricity bills...and couldn't be bothered to wash the sheets and towels he soiled.
> Frankly, he sounds like a selfish inconsiderate s***. A thief. Not nice at all.
> He may have been akin to Alcalaina's middle-class squatters...just a parasite happy to sponge off others. For all s/he knew, your mother could have been distressed and financially embarassed as a result of his actions.
> But the guy in the car sounds like someone in genuine need.


We simply didn't looked at it from that perspective. If that man or woman was a real thief then he would have stolen the tv, electricals, the expensive pictures on the walls, etc. But he took nothing when he left. Only food. 

True, he/she could have washed the sheets and towels. Maybe he thought himself of a guest.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> The deserving/undeserving distinction isn't really any more useful today than it was in Victorian times, when it was used to define who should receive relief from the Parish and who should be sent to the workhouse. It is fine for the extremes - the unfortunate hardworking family at one end, the scrounging villains and con-artists like Gael's "guests" at the other. You help the first group back on their feet; you treat the second like the criminals they are.
> 
> But most people fall somewhere in the middle, and someone has to make a decision on whether they are deserving or not. In the 19th century this was often the Parish priest; these days it appears to be the tabloid press.
> 
> If someone is homeless because he can no longer afford his mortgage repayments after being made redundant deserving or not? He could have taken out insurance, after all. Or a woman who left her home and family because her husband was an alcoholic who wouldn't seek help? Or kids who have become addicted to crack, led down that path by unscrupulous dealers? Or illegal immigrants who believed the lies of the people-traffickers they handed over all their money to? Every homeless person has their own sad story.


Yes, that's all true. But it doesn't invalidate my point.
If resources were widely available to all, we wouldn't need to make judgments about whether people are 'deserving' or not. But they're not.
But this is where the well-intentioned ship of abstract ideals runs against the hard rocks of scarce resources and judgments have, alas, to be made.
Some people are inevitably going to be judged more deserving than others, I'm afraid.
The question is who should make those judgments and what criteria they should be guided by.
And I agree, it should not be the tabloid press.
We would all agree with many abstract concepts but often the obstacles to applying them in practice are too real to be ignored.
I am not happy with the wayn the world works but it ain't gonna change in my lifetime so I make the best of a bad job, I'm afraid.


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## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> We simply didn't looked at it from that perspective. If that man or woman was a real thief then he would have stolen the tv, electricals, the expensive pictures on the walls, etc. But he took nothing when he left. Only food.
> 
> True, he/she could have washed the sheets and towels. Maybe he thought himself of a guest.


You really are nice...and I mean that.
A guest is someone I invite. A thief is a thief..i.e. one who steals.
If someone breaks into my house and steals only my tv, kindly leaving my IPod dock, laptop, money etc........I should be grateful???


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> .
> 
> If someone is homeless because he can no longer afford his mortgage repayments after being made redundant deserving or not? He could have taken out insurance, after all. Or a woman who left her home and family because her husband was an alcoholic who wouldn't seek help? Or kids who have become addicted to crack, led down that path by unscrupulous dealers? Or illegal immigrants who believed the lies of the people-traffickers they handed over all their money to? Every homeless person has their own sad story.


Could it not be said that all these examples refer to people who made wrong or foolish choices?
No-one is compelled to drink,indulge in addictive substances, become an illegal immigrant or even fecklessly fail to insure their mortgage.
Should we never reward 'good', prudent behaviour and 'punish' other types of behaviour?
If only one council house is available, who should get it: a hard-working sober poor family living in expensive private accomodation they cannot afford and are about to be evicted from because they have rent arrears or a homeless illegal immigrant?
People who have power to decide these things have to make a choice as to which is the more 'deserving'.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Could it not be said that all these examples refer to people who made wrong or foolish choices?
> No-one is compelled to drink,indulge in addictive substances, become an illegal immigrant or even fecklessly fail to insure their mortgage.
> Should we never reward 'good', prudent behaviour and 'punish' other types of behaviour?
> If only one council house is available, who should get it: a hard-working sober poor family living in expensive private accomodation they cannot afford and are about to be evicted from because they have rent arrears or a homeless illegal immigrant?
> People who have power to decide these things have to make a choice as to which is the more 'deserving'.


But should people be condemned for life because of a wrong decision or foolish choice? How many of us can stand up and say we never ever took a risk or did anything daft? What gives us the right to judge others?

I say 'condemned for life' because once you have hit the bottom there is rarely a way back up again, especially if society takes the attitude that you are there because of your own stupidity. 

As for your example about there being only one council house available, the answer is obvious - build (or compulsorily purchase) some more! And don't sell them off this time!


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## Sonrisa

mrypg9 said:


> You really are nice...and I mean that.
> A guest is someone I invite. A thief is a thief..i.e. one who steals.
> If someone breaks into my house and steals only my tv, kindly leaving my IPod dock, laptop, money etc........I should be grateful???


Lol, Mary, I know it is wrong to break into someone's house and I am not excusing it at all... but I still think our experience was positive, in a way. 

Stealing food and refuge is still stealing, no doubt, but it cannot be compared to other forms of robbery. Besides, in our case it caused very little inconvenience.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> But should people be condemned for life because of a wrong decision or foolish choice? How many of us can stand up and say we never ever took a risk or did anything daft? What gives us the right to judge others?
> 
> I say 'condemned for life' because once you have hit the bottom there is rarely a way back up again, especially if society takes the attitude that you are there because of your own stupidity.
> 
> As for your example about there being only one council house available, the answer is obvious - build (or compulsorily purchase) some more! And don't sell them off this time!


Again, all that is true. But I repeat: life doesn''t always provide us with the resources we need to be able to put these ideas into practice.
The right to judge others...hmm, that's interesting. We do it all the time, don't we? Either against our own moral/ethical standards or according to the laws of the country we live in. If we didn't there would be chaos. You and I would both agree that some aspects of human behaviour are odious. We have the right to make such judgments. I can't accept a society where moral relativism rules and I don't think you would.
As for council housing...again, I don't disagree. But it ain't gonna happen! So you have to deal with the situation as it is.
Incidentally, I ended up being a Director of a Housing Association because as Group Leader on the Council I was of the opinion that for the foreseeable future the (Thatcher/Major) Governments of that time would squeeze the finance available for the provision of council housing. So I worked with the Tories to carry through a stock transfer whereby we were able to retain 100% of the proceeds for future social housing.
Of course the hard left saw this as treachery, a sellout of socialist principles. But it was real life with the hard choices it brings. I can't help feeling that many people on the left prefer to be in opposition and not in Government because then they have the luxury of being 'pure', sticking to abstract principles and absolved from getting their hands dirty by having to choose between two evils.
But it enabled my Committee to go on a buying spree (mainly of repossessed RTB houses) and to plan for future newbuilds.
And when allocating these houses we had to decide who on a very long waiting list should get priority.
Not an easy task.
Compulsory purchase was another route we went down but it is not as straightforward an option as it seems. Property owners have rights too.


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## mrypg9

Sonrisa said:


> Lol, Mary, I know it is wrong to break into someone's house and I am not excusing it at all... but I still think our experience was positive, in a way.
> 
> Stealing food and refuge is still stealing, no doubt, but it cannot be compared to other forms of robbery. Besides, in our case it caused very little inconvenience.


Which is why I think you are a very reasonable and decent person.
Don't get me wrong...I am not as callous as I may seem. Until and for some time after I left the UK I spent most of my time in politics and trades unionism trying (without much success, alas) to make a difference to peoples' lives.
Now I'm not involved in a hands-on way anymore I've begun to look at things in a different way - examining principles, motives and so on rather than acting on unexamined beliefs and I know I've become more judgmental and perhaps hard-hearted in some respects.
I've given up on humans and now work with animals...


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## thrax

As a failed actor of many many years ago, I was always told never work with animals or children. Now children are vaguely human and as they get older so the resemblance increases and then suddenly they become adults (something I don't think I ever really achieved) and have an opportunity to become really odious and many of them are really very successful at that. So I understand your reluctance to bother with the human race anymore, although youare still a paid up member. My wife and I both love animals and in the 5 months we've been here, we've saved a horse and rescued 4 kittens to add to our other 3 cats. But that old actor in me keeps sending me warning signals even so....


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> As a failed actor of many many years ago, I was always told never work with animals or children. Now children are vaguely human and as they get older so the resemblance increases and then suddenly they become adults (something I don't think I ever really achieved) and have an opportunity to become really odious and many of them are really very successful at that. So I understand your reluctance to bother with the human race anymore, although youare still a paid up member. My wife and I both love animals and in the 5 months we've been here, we've saved a horse and rescued 4 kittens to add to our other 3 cats. But that old actor in me keeps sending me warning signals even so....


 Seven felines! You´ll have to learn to say no!

Our village is swarming with feral cats and if I had my way I would adopt every black kitten I saw. But that way madness lies ... Instead I am going to win the lottery and open a cat sanctuary. I might have some goats and hens, maybe a _burro_ or two, but no dogs or humans allowed.


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## VFR

*??*



Gael said:


> I can answer your question ; as to why the owners go on paying for the Utilities in their occupied houses : it's against the LAW to turn the Utilities off, thus depriving their squatter/s of their "Human rights" to water, lighting, heating, etc.
> 
> I have had a squatter living in my home for almost a year.
> 
> He broke in, changed the lock on the patio door and bolted the main door, having removed both the lock and handle, leaving two rather large holes in the very heavy wooden door to greet the Police, called when we discovered someone was in the house, without permission, refusing to open the door.
> 
> When the Police arrived he then flung open the main ( holed,lock and handle-less )
> door with a flourish, crying "Hello (to me ) how nice of you to come and visit !"
> 
> This, after hiding in the house, for about an hour and refusing to answer to the knocking of myself, my friend just arrived from Norway to stay with me and my two Finnish friends who live next door. And two Policemen.
> 
> He claimed that he had a "verbal contract" (as valid in Law as a written contract )
> TO LIVE IN MY HOUSE FOR THREE YEARS.
> At this point I did not even know this person's name.
> 
> I do now : BARTOLOME SANCHEZ SANCHEZ.
> 
> About 35 and a gardener, from Agua Dulce, but living in Fuengirola for some years.
> Ex boyfriend of Cordelia, late of "La Cepa" in Constitution Plaza, Fuengirola.
> ( I hasten to say, I don't think she has anything to do with this )
> 
> When I went to go in, to fetch my deeds to show ownership of my home, the Police told me I had no "right to enter" as he was "in possession" and further-more they advised me to stay well clear of him, as they thought him "unstable".
> 
> I was left with one change of clothes, in the garments and shoes I stood in.
> All my possessions where, and may or may not be, in my house.
> 
> I have a Lawyer, to whom I have paid 2.000.00.Euros so far and to whom I shall need to pay at least 1.000.00.Euros more and I await the Spanish Court.
> 
> At this moment, January 2011, no-one has any idea when my turn might be.
> I pay all the expenses pertaining to my house, he lives there, paying nothing whilst I have stay where I can.
> 
> And please don't think this has anything to do with being "non-Spanish".......
> 
> I heard of a Spanish man, who lives in his car, parked outside his own apartment,
> where-in a squatter lives in comfort. Just before Christmas, a Spanish couple, not young, finally regained their home after more than a year.......there are thousands of cases like this, all over Spain. It clearly states, in the Spanish Constitution, that it is a criminal offence to deprive an "individual" of their rightful abode.
> 
> But it is the squatters who are gaining from this Law, not the home-owners.
> Why don't they change the Law ? That is a good question.



The toe rag spoken about above (to which I posted a reply) in no charity case but quite simply a Piss Taker, and no better than a robbing thieving git ......... period.


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## Gael

Well , yes, .....you are right........


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## VFR

Gael said:


> Well , yes, .....you are right........


In that case have the robbing toe rag dealt with while you are in the local bar buying drinks to celebrate this or that.
That is all he will understand.
The legal route will never give you redress.
He will think twice before doing it again.
You will have a nice warm felling inside knowing that you have carried out a little natural justice.


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## gus-lopez

You haven't got a squatter but a professional fraudster. 
At the outset you didn't do wrong calling the police but you should have sent a friend ( of the same sex ) to pose as you . That's assuming you aren't one of those people that keeps hundreds of photos about making it obvious what you look like !
Once said friend had gone through the charade that you did with the police & made it plain that he hadn't receive any money whilst making sure that the person was adamant that he'd given it to him , he should have then called you to turn up ,as the real owner, so exposing the scum for what he is. This should have been enough for the police to throw him out. Word of advice for future ; The 1st thing you should do is fit a safe , the 2nd thing is fit another one ! Well hidden & keep all documents in it that identify you. Just put some old junk in the 1st. ( Just like my father-in-law used to keep a 'muggers' wallet , & he's been dead 15 years ! )
Having not gone down the above the 2nd course open to you was to do as he did . This would appear to be a lot easier in that he appears to have a job & leaves the place regularly. You arrange a professional locksmith & a carpenter to be ready & waiting once he has gone to work . The locksmith obtains entry using his skills & , if necessary, the carpenter is available & ready to fit a complete new door & frame which the locksmith can furnish with top quality deadlocks & even a number or card operated one! ( assuming you could do this without being in contravention of community regs.) Then assemble all his kit & dump it outside. Best to have a couple of 'friends ' available to meet him on arrival as Playamonte advised ! Might still be possible to go down this route ?

Another thing you should have done when going to meet him was used your mobile phone to record the conversation. Most have a facility where you just press a button on the side & it will record for 15/30minutes. 
The law on squatting is different in the Uk, don't know about Ireland, but there used to be a company in the UK that specialised in , legally, regaining occupation of your property using similar methods to the above. Did good business , £1000 fee + locksmith costs.
He appears to have all the answers & makes me think that he's done this before. If you do get him out I'd then issue proceedings against him for anything I could.


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## Stravinsky

Good advice Gus. I have to admit, had it been me I would have taken things into my own hands. I have a lot of large friends who would have been quite happy to step in.


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Good advice Gus. I have to admit, had it been me I would have taken things into my own hands. I have a lot of large friends who would have been quite happy to step in.


That's what we would have done. We have many large friends too...we were in the motor trade
At the end of the day you can dress up squatting in fanciful theories of the evils of property etc. but the truth is that squatters are living on someone else's money, scrounging off and taking advantage of a system they profess to despise.
I have no sympathy for people who demand rights at other perople's expense.
They are thieves.


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## VFR

BTW I forgot to mention that it would be useful if the associates relieved the toe rag of all his ID/SIP cards as he will then have a load of grief in casualty.


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## gus-lopez

playamonte said:


> BTW I forgot to mention that it would be useful if the associates relieved the toe rag of all his ID/SIP cards as he will then have a load of grief in casualty.


:rofl: True!


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## mrypg9

We took pity on a German hippy-type who was squatting on the campo in a shed. At first we felt sorry for him and invented jobs so we could give him money, we invited him frequently to ours to have a hot bath and a good meal, lent him our LandRover, even did his washing and ironing.
I flipped one day when, he driving our LR, began to lecture me,teling l me I was a 'prisoner of the system', should lead a simple life and so on.
I later found that the Mercedes bus he was driving had been stolen from Germany - the police stopped him on the A7 and took it.
He is now squatting in another old campervan on waste ground near us.
I will not speak to him altho' OH is less unforgiving.


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## Gael

Thank you all again for you comments.

The mistake I made was in phoning the Police, it made him "safe"in my home.

If he had broken in, pinched my mobile phone and the Police had caught him, he would be a thief and they could arrest him. 
Because he, in effect, stole the whole house and everything in it, but claimed a "verbal contract" he was deemed "in possession" and I lost my "right of entry".

If I send friends or "friends" up to talk to him, that would be deemed as a threat, I would be held liable and it would strengthen his "case"

My Lawyer, who agrees he is a professional fraud, or has deeply studied the many sites which tell would-be squatters "what to do" says he has tipped all the points.

He has also warned me against making any moves against him, as it could put my repossession of my house back, by years.

Unfortunately I had no option to trick him about ownership of my house.
I'm quite "sure" he had gained entry, looked at my photo-albums, gone through my files, before he moved in.

I have two large patio doors onto my front terrace; the one to the left I rarely if ever use. In fact, I had a large plant stand, with huge furn placed in front of the handle and lock. This was a mistake, as it made it obvious that I didn't use that lock. I checked it, to make sure it was secure, by tugging on the handle.......
how many people think to check a lock they haven't opened by using the key ?

I have shown a photo of the door and lock to a Locksmith, who said he could remove it in "under a minute"and replace it with another without leaving any trace
of tampering. When I asked him "what is the point of locks, if it's so easy to break in", he replied that he was, after all, a professional, but agreed that most people did not realize just how easy it is to break in.
The main door had a very complicated multi-bolt lock, but you're only as secure as your weakest point !

Once in, I imagine he went through my files, traced my business from contracts and tax returns and then paid me a visit, to confirm my identity.

Yes, this is the really freaky bit .........

He came into my Bar, my first customer of the night, last February.
He bought a beer and naturally we had a chat.
He told me he was Cordelia's ex-husband, father of her three children.
Even that was thought out.........I knew Cordelia as a schoolgirl, haven't seen her in years, but if I was in contact with her I would have known that in fact she only had one child and that her ex husband was English.
But I think he intended that I would be more open with some one who had had an intimate relationship with some one and her family that I knew, however distantly.

During the conversation he asked was I married, had I a boyfriend or had any thought about getting one, did I live alone, where were my family, how many brothers did I have, how often and when did they come to Spain..........
you get the drift ?

Now it all seems so suspect, but actually I'm asked just exactly these same questions, sometimes several times a week........new customers like to know about you.

But I never give my full name nor my address, just the area.

As time went on I began to wish someone else would come in.........
there was something just "not right" about him, strange eyes an odd smile that didn't reach them; he made me feel uncomfortable.

Towards the end, he asked my name, I shook his hand and said Gael and he replied with both my Christian names and my surname.
I at once thought " how on earth does he know that ?"

Just at that moment some people came in, I went to serve them and he left.
The next time I saw him was when he opened my door from the inside.

It's rather chilling isn't it ?


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## VFR

Gael said:


> Thank you all again for you comments.
> 
> The mistake I made was in phoning the Police, it made him "safe"in my home.
> 
> If he had broken in, pinched my mobile phone and the Police had caught him, he would be a thief and they could arrest him.
> Because he, in effect, stole the whole house and everything in it, but claimed a "verbal contract" he was deemed "in possession" and I lost my "right of entry".
> 
> If I send friends or "friends" up to talk to him, that would be deemed as a threat, I would be held liable and it would strengthen his "case"
> 
> My Lawyer, who agrees he is a professional fraud, or has deeply studied the many sites which tell would-be squatters "what to do" says he has tipped all the points.
> 
> He has also warned me against making any moves against him, as it could put my repossession of my house back, by years.
> 
> Unfortunately I had no option to trick him about ownership of my house.
> I'm quite "sure" he had gained entry, looked at my photo-albums, gone through my files, before he moved in.
> 
> I have two large patio doors onto my front terrace; the one to the left I rarely if ever use. In fact, I had a large plant stand, with huge furn placed in front of the handle and lock. This was a mistake, as it made it obvious that I didn't use that lock. I checked it, to make sure it was secure, by tugging on the handle.......
> how many people think to check a lock they haven't opened by using the key ?
> 
> I have shown a photo of the door and lock to a Locksmith, who said he could remove it in "under a minute"and replace it with another without leaving any trace
> of tampering. When I asked him "what is the point of locks, if it's so easy to break in", he replied that he was, after all, a professional, but agreed that most people did not realize just how easy it is to break in.
> The main door had a very complicated multi-bolt lock, but you're only as secure as your weakest point !
> 
> Once in, I imagine he went through my files, traced my business from contracts and tax returns and then paid me a visit, to confirm my identity.
> 
> Yes, this is the really freaky bit .........
> 
> He came into my Bar, my first customer of the night, last February.
> He bought a beer and naturally we had a chat.
> He told me he was Cordelia's ex-husband, father of her three children.
> Even that was thought out.........I knew Cordelia as a schoolgirl, haven't seen her in years, but if I was in contact with her I would have known that in fact she only had one child and that her ex husband was English.
> But I think he intended that I would be more open with some one who had had an intimate relationship with some one and her family that I knew, however distantly.
> 
> During the conversation he asked was I married, had I a boyfriend or had any thought about getting one, did I live alone, where were my family, how many brothers did I have, how often and when did they come to Spain..........
> you get the drift ?
> 
> Now it all seems so suspect, but actually I'm asked just exactly these same questions, sometimes several times a week........new customers like to know about you.
> 
> But I never give my full name nor my address, just the area.
> 
> As time went on I began to wish someone else would come in.........
> there was something just "not right" about him, strange eyes an odd smile that didn't reach them; he made me feel uncomfortable.
> 
> Towards the end, he asked my name, I shook his hand and said Gael and he replied with both my Christian names and my surname.
> I at once thought " how on earth does he know that ?"
> 
> Just at that moment some people came in, I went to serve them and he left.
> The next time I saw him was when he opened my door from the inside.
> 
> It's rather chilling isn't it ?


Gael you need to beat this shyster at his own game !

Lets just say a couple of male friends decided to take him up on his offer of renting the house (of course they do not know you from adam)
It sounded quite reasonable at 90eu a week (plus utility's) as they intend to stay for 6 months or so while looking for work.
You happen to find this out when you popped around to ask for some items from the shyster in the morning, but he had gone out & the door was answered by these 2 scary individuals.
So you immediately called the police as the place seems to have been re-squatted and ask just what they intend to do about this new invasion (real indignant look on your face)
You also contact your idiot lawyer to ask him to start proceedings against them etc etc.
Shyster returns to find that the lock in question has been replaced & he is invited in by his new lodgers who threaten to call the police as they now know he has tried to scam them out of what little money they had & the real owner has now started proceedings against them (these lads are outraged)

When the new occupants have made their statements & the police leave, they can then start work on the shyster who will learn about his fate in the very near future.
Yes shyster you will be naked on a beach at first light minus any form of ID & please make a complaint as we can then find out your address and then you can start your second trial.


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## nigele2

playamonte it is all well and good fantasizing but that doesn't help Gael.

To find two friends who happen to be thugs and could stand up to Spanish police questioning is easily said but very difficult to do. And then there is the issue of Gael standing up to police questioning. And how would he feel if it went wrong and someone was seriously injured?

In reality he has in the long term done the right thing. The best he can do is pursue the legal process and publicise his plight. Talking to the local press might get the neighbours on his side which might help. 

Sadly when people hop off to spain they rarely consider that the legal system in spain is broken like many things in spain. If you are bitten by it you either accept it, fight it at possibly great personal cost, or go somewhere that does the job better.

Gael hang on in there. You'll get through this and life might yet catch up on this guy.


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## Gael

Oh gosh, interesting storyline, but I'm afraid that horse won't run........

I'm rather glad to say my friends tend to be more "the lads" than thugs and my squatter has given no indication what-so-ever that he has the slightest idea of renting out my house. Why would he, when he's living in a lovely place, fully furnished, with terraces, gardens and a swimming pool, all free ?

And there's always the revenge factor.....where I lived is very quiet and, at night really dark.
I would be very weary indeed,a woman coming in late on my own, if I resorted to any such tactics.
He's proven, by his actions he's not much given to remorse.

And, most importantly, it still wouldn't get me back into the house.

Quite the reverse, it would make him "the victim". And this man is no fool, he's made that very clear, he plots and covers every angle in a cool and contained fashion.

The only way to get rid of him now is legally. ( or, in dreams only, for all time !)
Then if he threatens or annoys me, I have the Law on my side.

Any move against him, he'll go straight to the Police and say he's being threatened, which would be viewed more seriously than breaking in or squatting.

The Police were very kind and as helpful as far as they could be. 
They obviously believed me and the one in charge rang his superior office three time to make sure that he was dealing with the situation correctly. His fellow officer and the chap from next door were more inclined to drag him out, by the ears, but the rule of Law prevailed.

As for me, I've been living in Spain for over thirty yeas and am the President of the community. Most of the other houses are "holiday homes" rarely occupied, which of course means I don't really know the other owners that well and they are horrified and don't know what to believe. I do admit, it seems beyond belief that a stranger can hatch a plot and succeed in stealing your home and get away with it.
But it's happened.

I posted this up with very slim hope of anyone having an overnight solution, wonderful as that would be, rather more to warn people of what can happen.


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## gus-lopez

No you've slightly missed the point. The friends 'renting' aren't invited by him but obtain access by having the lock picked, then you 'find' them there & ring the police. Etc,Etc.
unfortunately I think it's gone to far down the line , for you, except to continue with the legal options. If you've got to think about the revenge factor it means he has to be left in a position where that wouldn't become a problem.


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## Gael

Aaaaahhh yes, now I get it !

I'm afraid I would make a dreadful criminal.........
I also fear you are right, the legal option is the only realistic one.

I do contemplate murder, I freely admit, that would solve my problem and in imagination is a very tempting option, but only in imagination !

But thank you for your plot and your kind thoughts.

And every one else who has taken the time to read or read and comment too.
It gives my courage levels a wee kick-start; Thank you all !


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## Alcalaina

Gael said:


> Aaaaahhh yes, now I get it !
> 
> I'm afraid I would make a dreadful criminal.........
> I also fear you are right, the legal option is the only realistic one.
> 
> I do contemplate murder, I freely admit, that would solve my problem and in imagination is a very tempting option, but only in imagination !
> 
> But thank you for your plot and your kind thoughts.
> 
> And every one else who has taken the time to read or read and comment too.
> It gives my courage levels a wee kick-start; Thank you all !


I think you are going the right way by staying within the law, although I´m sure it doesn´t seem like it at times! What about a publicity campaign? Can you get the local press or TV to take uo the case? Reporters camped outside his door might make him think!

Your story and your courage has touched us all. Do keep us updated on future developments!


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I think you are going the right way by staying within the law, although I´m sure it doesn´t seem like it at times! What about a publicity campaign? Can you get the local press or TV to take uo the case? Reporters camped outside his door might make him think!
> 
> Your story and your courage has touched us all. Do keep us updated on future developments!


That for me is the best idea by FARRR.
I understand you'll need a lot of energy and courage to do this, but I reckon it could be very effective - especially if you try to persuade papers etc to come out with the story all together and _then_ do a follow up. Here's a link to España Directa on TVE 1 to get you started
Envíanos tu denuncia, es muy sencillo - RTVE.es
Think Spain contact page
Thinkspain - Contact us
Your local paper
Diario Fuengirola
Plus posters on every tree, lampost and bus stop within a 5 mile radius!


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## Gael

Thank you all again, especially for the links to local T.V. and papers.
I'll see where the legal road takes me first, then use them afterwards.
And I hope to return with some good news soon. Cheers, Gael


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## mrypg9

The legal road is always the best road to take unless there are very extenuating circumstances and you are sure you can cover your tracks and no-one gets seriously injured.
This is not a case which requires such desperate and drastic measures.
If you do get publicity it won't be shame which forces this slimeball out, it will be harassment, as PW said, which is a legal kind of force majeure.


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## sara7

gerrit said:


> First of all, no, no plans myself to move out of my perfectly legal rented flat (despite the rather expensive rental price every month) but purely out of interest...
> 
> Recently one of the poetry readings in which I participated was organised in the basement of a squat, where all sorts of workshops were done. Some of the other poets lived in the squat upstairs. Near my workplace there's a squat as well which even doesn't have proper glass in the windows, a door that seems to be very much broken, but somehow they got functioning light and running water and live there with 10 or more people including a few young kids
> 
> Purely out of interest, but how do those squatters get the electricity and water if they in theory are not officially living there? :confused2: Also, how can they leave for work and be not worried to arrive "home" and find the squat sealed off with no way to get back in and recover their possessions?
> 
> Just interested, no plans to go squatting myself... One of my favourite musicians (and a big inspiration for my own writings) did live in a squat in London for a while before he managed to get a legal income. Maybe my interest stems from that fact, or maybe from the fact that I see those squatters near work have lights and running water and organise barbeque parties on the roof without the owner of the house apparently caring to even check if the house is being used or not :confused2:



Where was that squat btw? It´s probably not there now anyway...


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## mrypg9

sara7 said:


> Where was that squat btw? It´s probably not there now anyway...


How , out of interest, do you justify squatting?
If you want to live outside the 'system' surely you wouldn't want to live off it?
Why not put up a yurt in the woods?


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## AlfacarPeter

*Squats in Granada.*

I´ve read some of the posts regarding squats with interest and considerable concern. Please, let´s not tolerate for a moment the "romantic" image of communities of colourful people with alternative lifestyles getting one up on an unjust system that has let them down, and turning these squats into havens of free thought, creativity and culture that somehow benefit the wider community... In Granada and the surrounding area there is a longstanding issue of people who come from all over Europe to pursue a particular lifestyle outside the "system". To choose Spain in the first place for their social experiment is very disrespectful to the Spanish people. I appreciate that there is a legitimate issue for debate re. the utilization of buildings that would otherwise be standing empty but this should be dealt with as a separate issue, and the sole solution to this problem is certainly not to allow them to be used as squats. In Granada, many of these people call themselves "anarchists". I understand the definition of this term to be a lack of belief in govenment of any kind; by implication, this should mean that these anarchists would reject any form of help from conventional administrations. Instead, they tap into electricity and water supplies and are quick to take advantage of the health system and free handouts of food and clothes when this suits them. The streets and parks of Granada are covered with the excrement of dogs belonging to these individuals (many of the poor animals are in poor condition, un-neutered and breed uncontrollably with the resulting puppies leading a miserable life or dying young from disease), as well as drug-taking paraphernalia, bottles of alcohol and human waste. This poses serious public health issues and the Ayuntamiento of Granada has been forced to close many public areas off at night to prevent them being used in this way. If you come to Granada, take a walk around the Albaycín, the internationally significant ancient Arab quarter, and see the filth and graffiti that covers the lanes and historical buildings. It is true that some people who end up living in squats are those who are genuinely unable to cope with modern society and may have serious mental health issues. These people need our help. The majority of squatters in this area, however, have chosen this lifestyle and are inflicting its unsavoury by-products on everybody else.


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## Alcalaina

AlfacarPeter said:


> I´ve read some of the posts regarding squats with interest and considerable concern. Please, let´s not tolerate for a moment the "romantic" image of communities of colourful people with alternative lifestyles getting one up on an unjust system that has let them down, and turning these squats into havens of free thought, creativity and culture that somehow benefit the wider community... In Granada and the surrounding area there is a longstanding issue of people who come from all over Europe to pursue a particular lifestyle outside the "system". To choose Spain in the first place for their social experiment is very disrespectful to the Spanish people. I appreciate that there is a legitimate issue for debate re. the utilization of buildings that would otherwise be standing empty but this should be dealt with as a separate issue, and the sole solution to this problem is certainly not to allow them to be used as squats. In Granada, many of these people call themselves "anarchists". I understand the definition of this term to be a lack of belief in govenment of any kind; by implication, this should mean that these anarchists would reject any form of help from conventional administrations. Instead, they tap into electricity and water supplies and are quick to take advantage of the health system and free handouts of food and clothes when this suits them. The streets and parks of Granada are covered with the excrement of dogs belonging to these individuals (many of the poor animals are in poor condition, un-neutered and breed uncontrollably with the resulting puppies leading a miserable life or dying young from disease), as well as drug-taking paraphernalia, bottles of alcohol and human waste. This poses serious public health issues and the Ayuntamiento of Granada has been forced to close many public areas off at night to prevent them being used in this way. If you come to Granada, take a walk around the Albaycín, the internationally significant ancient Arab quarter, and see the filth and graffiti that covers the lanes and historical buildings. It is true that some people who end up living in squats are those who are genuinely unable to cope with modern society and may have serious mental health issues. These people need our help. The majority of squatters in this area, however, have chosen this lifestyle and are inflicting its unsavoury by-products on everybody else.


Yes, I was shocked by the graffiti in Albaicin when we went last year, and some of the "crusties" hanging round the Rio Darro at night looked distinctly menacing.

So if you were the Alcalde, what would you do about this problem?


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## baldilocks

gerrit said:


> Purely out of interest, but how do those squatters get the electricity and water if they in theory are not officially living there? :confused2: Also, how can they leave for work and be not worried to arrive "home" and find the squat sealed off with no way to get back in and recover their possessions?
> 
> 
> without the owner of the house apparently caring to even check if the house is being used or not :confused2:


1. If you have ever been to the poorer barrios of South America you will find wires hanging from the electricity supply - they steal it, of course!

2. Water, they get the same way.

3. Owners? In many cases residential property is left empty because the "owners" who may be 20 or 30 cousins can't agree as to what to do with it on the death of the previous owner who probably died intestate. Even if some of them put it up for sale, a sale can't proceed to any conclusion until they all agree to sell and agree on a price that has been offered.

4. As far as squatters recovering possessions, they will probably be out in the street until the basureros come along and remove it.


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## AlfacarPeter

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I was shocked by the graffiti in Albaicin when we went last year, and some of the "crusties" hanging round the Rio Darro at night looked distinctly menacing.
> 
> So if you were the Alcalde, what would you do about this problem?


It´s a complicated issue, but I think it´s important to get local communities involved. Given the dire financial situation in Spain and the need to create jobs, if I was the local Alcalde I´d promote schemes to provide grants for local people/families on low incomes to renovate empty houses (taking them out of the "squatter loop"), and I´d give unemployed locals jobs not only as community rangers to "police" the area, liaise with the local police, report damage, etc, but also in "Task Forces" to remove grafitti, clean up the streets, create community gardens, etc, etc. Sadly, there´s not much of a tradition in Southern Spain of caring for anything outside your front door, ie: your surroundings, barrio etc, so there´s also the problem of re-educating people to take pride in their surroundings.


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## Alcalaina

AlfacarPeter said:


> It´s a complicated issue, but I think it´s important to get local communities involved. Given the dire financial situation in Spain and the need to create jobs, if I was the local Alcalde I´d promote schemes to provide grants for local people/families on low incomes to renovate empty houses (taking them out of the "squatter loop"), and I´d give unemployed locals jobs not only as community rangers to "police" the area, liaise with the local police, report damage, etc, but also in "Task Forces" to remove grafitti, clean up the streets, create community gardens, etc, etc. Sadly, there´s not much of a tradition in Southern Spain of caring for anything outside your front door, ie: your surroundings, barrio etc, so there´s also the problem of re-educating people to take pride in their surroundings.


You´ve got my vote


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## VFR

AlfacarPeter said:


> It´s a complicated issue, but I think it´s important to get local communities involved. Given the dire financial situation in Spain and the need to create jobs, if I was the local Alcalde I´d promote schemes to provide grants for local people/families on low incomes to renovate empty houses (taking them out of the "squatter loop"), and I´d give unemployed locals jobs not only as community rangers to "police" the area, liaise with the local police, report damage, etc, but also in "Task Forces" to remove grafitti, clean up the streets, create community gardens, etc, etc. Sadly, there´s not much of a tradition in Southern Spain of caring for anything outside your front door, ie: your surroundings, barrio etc, so there´s also the problem of re-educating people to take pride in their surroundings.


Its a funny old world Peter as most of what you have written I also proposed to the local council when I was last working for them (not the squat/old buildings bit though) a couple of years back.
I do not know if they took any notice, but since then they have made quite a few changes to the village along these lines. If nothing else they may have taken note how outsiders view things ?


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## dinnow

AlfacarPeter said:


> It´s a complicated issue, but I think it´s important to get local communities involved. Given the dire financial situation in Spain and the need to create jobs, if I was the local Alcalde I´d promote schemes to provide grants for local people/families on low incomes to renovate empty houses (taking them out of the "squatter loop"), and I´d give unemployed locals jobs not only as community rangers to "police" the area, liaise with the local police, report damage, etc, but also in "Task Forces" to remove grafitti, clean up the streets, create community gardens, etc, etc. Sadly, there´s not much of a tradition in Southern Spain of caring for anything outside your front door, ie: your surroundings, barrio etc, so there´s also the problem of re-educating people to take pride in their surroundings.


You preface all with "Given the dire financial situation in Spain" and then go on to propose spending money to provide grants and to pay vigilantes. And, "given the dire financial situation in Spain", where are you proposing that the money comes from to fund all this?


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## jojo

AlfacarPeter said:


> It´s a complicated issue, but I think it´s important to get local communities involved. Given the dire financial situation in Spain and the need to create jobs, if I was the local Alcalde I´d promote schemes to provide grants for local people/families on low incomes to renovate empty houses (taking them out of the "squatter loop"), and I´d give unemployed locals jobs not only as community rangers to "police" the area, liaise with the local police, report damage, etc, but also in "Task Forces" to remove grafitti, clean up the streets, create community gardens, etc, etc. Sadly, there´s not much of a tradition in Southern Spain of caring for anything outside your front door, ie: your surroundings, barrio etc, so there´s also the problem of re-educating people to take pride in their surroundings.


Something they should be doing in the UK

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> Something they should be doing in the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


And in Bolivia, Belgium and South Korea although what that has to do with squats in Spain I'm not too sure 

:focus:


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## Gael

In answer to the above : if you are "Resident' and have registered your "Home address" 
in the Town Hall, then yes...........the property is "your's" for at least five years, provided you pay the rent......up-dates controlled by the cost of living.

In my own case, just wanted to note, that I finally have a date upon which my squatter must leave : 12th. June 2013. That's six months after he was Judged to be in possession illegally.

He was given one month to vacate.
As he had moved in his girlfriend and her child, this was extended "upon humanitarian grounds" to two months..........12th. February 2013.

He did not go, so we had to appeal to the Judge again........

Altogether that's nearly three and one half years since he broke in........he has not paid for water, electric, parking, rubbish, community, etc........but I had to, as "it's my house".

I have no idea if any of my or my late Husband's possessions remain in the house, and have no claim........my Insurance Company cancelled my policy ( eleven months to run......did not return money, as "un-agreed occupant in my house" ), as soon as I informed them of the squatter's presence in my home.

If he set's fire to the house, before he's forced out, I will have "a plot"........no claim against the building or contents possible.

In between, he took me to Court, accusing me of threatening his, his girlfriend and her child''s life..........she stood witness in Court that I had many times threatened them all........

That was the second time I have ever seen her, have never spoken to her, ever, and have never seen the child.......another liar.

If you ever have problems with squatters in your house, who could break in, whilst you are out shopping.......DO NOT CALL THE POLICE !


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## Lonely

I would have offered them an offer they could not refuse.


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## skip o

What an unbelievable story! Sorry to hear about this. May I ask, how long were you out of town for before he "moved in?"


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## GUAPACHICA

Alcalaina said:


> Seven felines! You´ll have to learn to say no!
> 
> Our village is swarming with feral cats and if I had my way I would adopt every black kitten I saw. But that way madness lies ... Instead I am going to win the lottery and open a cat sanctuary. I might have some goats and hens, maybe a _burro_ or two, but no dogs or humans allowed.


Hey, that's my dream - although I'd prefer to prioritise dogs over cats! We're agreed on the other creatures, but I'd want to include horses - lots of them! It'd make sense for us to join forces, win the lottery and then we could rescue them all..!
We could each avoid having to deal with other humans by opting for different work shifts - I'm nocturnal, so could work from late afternoon 'till dawn! How are you in the early mornings, lol? 

Saludos,
GC


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## mrypg9

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hey, that's my dream - although I'd prefer to prioritise dogs over cats! We're agreed on the other creatures, but I'd want to include horses - lots of them! It'd make sense for us to join forces, win the lottery and then we could rescue them all..!
> We could each avoid having to deal with other humans by opting for different work shifts - I'm nocturnal, so could work from late afternoon 'till dawn! How are you in the early mornings, lol?
> 
> Saludos,
> GC



You don't need to win the lottery to open a dog refuge or a cat sanctuary,you know The animal charity I help run gets the money it needs by the sheer hard work of organising to earn it. We run Christmas Fairs, Dog shows- our next is on May 12th at thevEstepona Palacio- do street collections,car boot sales....you name it! We even had a Seance...

It's amazing what you can do even on a small scale. In Jimenato's village a group formed to collect money to feed street dogs - some dogs live quite well in the wild if they are given food and water regularly and are checked for any problems that may require veterinary care. As most shelters are full that kind of help is much appreciated.


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## XXXXX

skip o said:


> What an unbelievable story! Sorry to hear about this. May I ask, how long were you out of town for before he "moved in?"


I too wish to know, and I appreciate your effort to tell us your experience.

I have been considering to purchase an apartment I like in southern Spain, but the squatters rights over owners rights in Spain truly deter investors. 

Squatters may not be unique in Spain, but from what I have read on-line, it is the frustration and helplessness caused to property owners, detrimental.


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## baldilocks

While i do not in any way approve of squatting, I can understand their frustration at being homeless and seeing all these properties standing, apparently, unoccupied. While a number may be holiday homes a fair few will also be homes inherited by a number of legatees and it then becomes difficult to get a consensus of opinion among those involved as to how the property is to be used/sold, etc.


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## Lynn R

Wasn't there a change to the law on squatting fairly recently (last year or the year before, I think)? I seem to remember reading something of the kind, and then a house not too far from us, which was a holiday home with Scandinavian owners, was squatted. Someone obviously alerted the owners, they came over, and the squatters were evicted, with the police in attendance, only a couple of weeks later.

This is the only case involving a holiday home I know of around here, but there are others where houses repossessed by banks have been squatted and the occupants remain in residence years later (with the electricity and water connected illegally - I saw one such case where they were breaking up the pavement in order to make the connection to the water supply). I'm sure the water and electricity companies must be aware that these properties are occupied, when they have meter readers coming round regularly, but they don't have meters as they were removed when the supply was disconnected.

I try not to let these cases bother me too much, sometimes it can be better to have the house lived in than left empty to deteriorate when people tend to start dumping rubbish, etc, as long as the people occupying them don't cause problems for their neighbours through anti-social behaviour.

There is a house up the hill from me which was a holiday home, but the owner has not even visited the house for at least 3 years. Twice during the last 6 months I have had young Spanish guys knocking on my door asking if I am a friend of the owner (I think they think all foreigners automatically know each other!) because they are interested in renting the house. I have to tell them I don't know where the owner is or have any means of getting in touch with them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone didn't decide to squat this property in the not too distant future, but I don't see there's much I could or should do about it if it happens.


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## Horlics

Edited to remove comment.... old thread.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Wasn't there a change to the law on squatting fairly recently (last year or the year before, I think)? I seem to remember reading something of the kind, and then a house not too far from us, which was a holiday home with Scandinavian owners, was squatted. Someone obviously alerted the owners, they came over, and the squatters were evicted, with the police in attendance, only a couple of weeks later.
> 
> This is the only case involving a holiday home I know of around here, but there are others where houses repossessed by banks have been squatted and the occupants remain in residence years later (with the electricity and water connected illegally - I saw one such case where they were breaking up the pavement in order to make the connection to the water supply). I'm sure the water and electricity companies must be aware that these properties are occupied, when they have meter readers coming round regularly, but they don't have meters as they were removed when the supply was disconnected.
> 
> I try not to let these cases bother me too much, sometimes it can be better to have the house lived in than left empty to deteriorate when people tend to start dumping rubbish, etc, as long as the people occupying them don't cause problems for their neighbours through anti-social behaviour.
> 
> There is a house up the hill from me which was a holiday home, but the owner has not even visited the house for at least 3 years. Twice during the last 6 months I have had young Spanish guys knocking on my door asking if I am a friend of the owner (I think they think all foreigners automatically know each other!) because they are interested in renting the house. I have to tell them I don't know where the owner is or have any means of getting in touch with them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone didn't decide to squat this property in the not too distant future, but I don't see there's much I could or should do about it if it happens.


A couple of properties near us are squatted, bank repos. One is a really big house. No problems that we're aware of.
Certainly better than the fate of a house just down the road which has been completely gutted. I mean gutted. Everything has been removed down to doorknobs and light switches.
At one time it would have been a €1 million house. Now it's a shell. Quite shocking, really.


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