# Focus on Mexico offering



## NEDave

My wife and I are very intent on moving to Mexico for retirement, which is hopefully in about 3-4 years. We are looking at the Lake Chapala area and I have explored the option of taking the informational tour offered by the Focus on Mexico group on the Internet. M question is: Has anyone taken this tour, and could we find out the information given on the tour by visiting on our own? I know that they present information on the area, cost of living, important facts to know before moving, legal papers needed, housing, etc. ALL of these are very important topics to know in order to prepare. The tour is pricey, but is it the best option for someone that has never been to the area and needs to know all of this before beginning the moving process? Thanks for your help in advance. I follow many of the threads here and have learned a lot, but also know that there is much more to learn before making it a permanent move. I look forward to the replies.


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## NoVaDamer

*Just Did it*

My wife and I did the Focus course in January. It is pricey, as you note, but we treated it as a mini-vacation, and in many ways it is, seeing how well the Focus team pampers you. As someone who has lived overseas before, you could find the information on your own. You are paying a premium to have all the info you need collected and delivered to you in one place, along with great local connections to use in the future, and a ready-made set of new friends who are all interested in the same goal as you.
We found it very worthwhile; I had done all the internet research, but we were at the point we needed to go see what Chapala was all about.
The bottom line is it was well worth the price.


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## sparks

I would never spend money on a tour like that as they are geared to people fairly anxious to move into something of their own ... as in buy a house. Why not take a two week vacation, stay in a nice place and check out the area by bus and taxi. Talk to expats on message boards and in person when you get here. You only need the "technical details" after you've decided an area is for you. 3-4 more years is plenty of time to look at it from all angles.


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## chicois8

seeing how well the Focus team pampers you.

sounds like a car dealer, they pamper you until you buy then it's call the service dept.


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## TundraGreen

I know nothing about the Focus group, but my question would be: do you really learn as much as you would having to do things for your own. It is very educational to struggle with learning things yourself as opposed to having it spoon fed to you by someone. Is it like the difference between listening to a lecture for an hour and doing all the homework exercises? One is easy but the other is educational.


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## Grizzy

I would strongly advise that if you do take the Focus course you consider it an all expense paid vacation to the Chapala area with some real estate exposure thrown in and as an introduction to the intricacies of relocating. The information you will receive on the topics will be dated and rose colored. There will be a strong time share form of pressure to buy from their own real estate consultants and the properties they are involved with.

The meals, tours and events are first class. It is a very easy way to get a look at the area. But it is something you can do on your own much cheaper and the information you get should not be relied upon. You can learn more about immigration, health insurance, driving in Mx, vehicle permits, rentals or buying and areas of the lake from this or other online forums or from chatting with expats anywhere you find us in the area. 

Add up the costs then check the cost of a week at a nice hotel or B&B, some great meals and the joy of meeting people with no agenda who are willing to share their experiences for free and decide if you need the course. Again if you do, research the important information for yourself afterwards.

PS If you want more info feel free to PM me.


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## NoVaDamer

Just to clarify a few things:
I described Focus' efforts as "pampering" not only because they really do take care of everything, but also because I have been on all-inclusive vacations that had hidden costs. Focus had no hidden costs.
If you are adventurous, an extrovert, or someone who learns best by doing, Focus may not for you. Many expats apparently fall into those categories (not surprisingly). However, if you are introvert, not that adventurous, or prefer passive learning, Focus may be good for you.
Having just been through it in January, I can absolutely confirm there is no time-share type pressure. In the course of a week, we spent 4 hours one afternoon looking at a mix of resales in the area, and four hours the next day looking at planned developments;both tours were optional, and some participants did only one or the other.
I will confess that the Focus team is overwhelmingly positive about living in Mexico in general, and in the Lake Chapala area in particular. If that surprise anyone, I can't imagine why.


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## PieGrande

Over my 15 years on Mexico Internet boards, most expats recommend not buying property until you live in Mexico at least two years. I have read sad tales of people who visit Chapala/Ajijic in the winter when the weather is horrid in the north, maybe several times a few weeks at a time. They buy an expensive house, and move, then in as short a time as two weeks realize it was a mistake.

And, they keep bailing up to two years, which is why the experienced recommend renting two years.

Just in the last few years, people to whom I communicate by e-mail, closer than fellow board members, two couples planned for years to move to Mexico, and in both cases went back within the two weeks I stated here.

When all your money is in a nice house, and you quickly realize it was a mistake, and you are stuck for several years while you sell that house, life can be miserable. Not a good idea at all.


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## RVGRINGO

We visited, we came back, we bought a home in Ajijic two weeks later, we stayed there four happy years, others made an offer we couldn't refuse, we moved five miles to Chapala, bought another home and we're still here after more than a decade.
We've had prior experience in other countries and have owned many homes in many places, some built with my own hands. That sort of experience, or the lack of it, may make a difference in the choice to rent or buy. As such, I never make that sort of recommendation and trust that the individual knows himself well enough to make his own decision. Those, who constantly recommend renting for a year or two, seem to forget the expense and inconvenience entailed in moving. Others may look at it as providing a sort of freedom, while those who own property like the security and stability it provides. Then, there are people who need the help of landlords, 'supers', etc. and can't even change a faucet. Many don't even want them as tenants & they should probably never buy property unless they can afford to have everything done for them.
To each, his own.


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## FHBOY

*On The Cusp*

As one's who have already chosen to move to Lakeside in Jan, we also looked over the FOM program. We nixed it as too costly (there are more comments on it if you use the search feature). We will, however go to the Thursday Morning "Judy"seminar - at $40USD per head, and four hours, that seems worth it, when we return the first week of April. (Can't wait!!!)

As pointed out, everybody is different. We've always just dropped in and spoke with people. This is especially easy at the Lake Chapala Society as we discovered last year. We had contacted a real esate agent over the internet (I'd recommend them if you want) and they showed us around, no pressure. A couple of days we were on our own, and we went to the Plaza to have a meal or coffee, went the the LCS and everywhere we went, people would talk with us.

This Forum is the non-verbal form of that. Those of us here who open up and ask questions will find answers and not have to pay for them. Sometimes the problem is not knowing what questions to ask, and for that you may need some guidance.

As an example: the Forum has convinced us that our plan of action needed changes. We were all prepared to buy a beautiful house in Ajijic after we left last year - it was not because or real estate people pressured us, it was just because we loved it. It took 8 months of discussion here to change our minds in that when we come down in April, we are now looking for a long term rental - for at least two years - maybe forever - and it was all because we listened and asked.
(In Lakeside there is an MLS for buying houses, it is easy. But for renting, while you can find some listings on the web, you must visit each listing agent, as there appears to be no MLS-type shared listings...there is no profit in it, so it makes it more difficult)

If you do not like exploring on your own, may not have the patience, if you are apprehensive to ask questions, to open yourself up so that people will help you, FOM, like a guided tour, may be the way to go - smooths the informational bumps. If you have the time then you can do it yourself, it just takes a lot of effort, bandwidth and patience. We enjoy guided tours, they are easy, but this decision is not a tour, it is a life passage...we do not want to delude ourselves that it will all be easy. 

To be an expat, you have chosen an adventure, which means you can never, ever be sure that every step you take will be the correct one, that you will never make a mistake and you will always have that one person to guide you. I may be judegmental here, so excuse me, but if you are going down this path, FOM will not be there every step of your re-settlement. You are going to have to learn how to ask questions from perfect strangers, put your self "out there" and be prepared and get absorbed in, rather than padded from, the community you are moving to. Overcoming shyness (not introversy - they are two different things) is a large factor when moving. I am the type, as is my wife, who will smile and strike up a conversation on line in the supermarket, the theater, a reatuarant, with perfect strangers. That is us, that may not be you. But I feel that this adventure requires more of that, expecially in a foreign culture.

If you plan to make the rest of your life in a new place, in a new way, then you need individual courage. Having a support group, like FOM, is great, it is an instant network of information and that is great...if you can afford it. 

Me, the ROI is not worth it - I am sure we will find the answers, as soon as we know the questions, and the only way to know the questions is experieinces, good and bad - and time is not a factor it may take us longer but, so what? Of course if it is life threatening, then that cavalier attitude does not apply. BUt we have a little saying on our refrigerator that reads:

*RELAX-EXCEPT FOR A FEW LIFE OR DEATH SITUATIONS, NOTHING IS AS IMPORTANT AS IT FIRST APPEARS.*
Peace out, let the discussion carry on.


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> (In Lakeside there is an MLS for buying houses, it is easy. But for renting, while you can find some listings on the web, you must visit each listing agent, as there appears to be no MLS-type shared listings...there is no profit in it, so it makes it more difficult)


Try Looking for Ajijic Rentals or want to Rent in Lake Chapala?
They have rental listings from a lot of the local agencies.


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## gudgrief

*Broaden Horizons*

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Chapala/Ajijic area. Being one of the largest and oldest American expat communities, you may never have a situation where your Spanish, however rudimentary, doesn't get you through. 

There are lot's of other beautiful places in Mexico to retire to. It might take a real sense of adventure plus a lot more research and a prolonged looksee trip to find one that suits.

I had two advantages/disadvantages. I had worked for an American multinational in Saltillo between 1982 and 1985 that gave us plenty of opportunity to travel through Mexico, a lot of it by car. We covered most of the Pacific Coast, the Riviera Maya, and just about every region in the interior. I had lived in Spain prior to Saltillo and my Spanish was good enough to talk my way out of most "sticky" situations.

When I retired in 2008, I made a list of places I might want to live. I was on a shoestring and couldn't afford to buy, much less tour Mexico luxury class. I definitely needed a location where I could live comfortably without owning a car. I'd walk, take a taxi, or local bus. I didn't want a place too cold or too hot. Not too hot was more important than not too cold.

I ended up taking a low budget trip to Zacatecas by way of Monterrey. I wanted to see how the infrastructure had changed in 25 years. The drive wasn't bad and the highways had improved immensely, but so had the traffic. Being on a low budget I booked a room at a hostel. Not only was it clean and comfortable and cheap, the kind of people who stay at hostels are an interesting mixture of nationalities and the owner was an inexhaustible source of information.

I figured this was going to be the first quick trip, I would go home and plan another trip hitting maybe 10 locations, staying at hostels, travelling by bus and using whatever local resources I could find to pick a spot to retire.

I spent a week in Zacatecas exploring and getting to know people staying at the hostel or using it as a free/cheap place to get on the Internet including some long-term expats who had been in Zac three years or more. I fell in love with the place and decided to look no further. 

Finding a decent place to rent was nearly impossible, not so if you want to buy. You just have to be in the right place at the right time. It just so happened that the hostel owner had 3 apartments he rented long-term. Far from luxurious, They were clean and functionally maintained. For the equivalent of $350/mo. including all utilities, cable and housekeeping service once a week and also on request, I didn't think I could go wrong. And I didn't.

My situation might be unique, but if you have the spirit of adventure to look for a place away from an expat Mecca you will open yourself to experience you of which you may never have dreamed.

I just wanted to hint at it might be worthwhile to look beyond expat concentrations. I'm not even sure this is appropriate on this forum so I'll cut it off here.


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## FHBOY

gudgrief said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Chapala/Ajijic area.
> 
> I just wanted to hint at it might be worthwhile to look beyond expat concentrations. I'm not even sure this is appropriate on this forum so I'll cut it off here.


Believe it or not, this Froum is not the Lake Chapala Chamber of Commerce, although sometimes it can sound like it. Moving beyond expat centers for some is too much, too soon and too fast. That only makes people different. For us, I think of we did the "native" route, we'd end up going back NOB - it is too much of a change, a shock, if you will.

Your experience in Zacatecas was exactly our experience in Ajijic. We came, we experienced and was said we didn't want to look further, it had everything we think we could want. I've read so much about other places, heard so many people ask, "Why did you stop looking?" Why? because we found what we were looking for: climate, proximity to Int'l Airport, large integrated (more than like PV or resort towns) community, slower quieter pace, five hours to the ocean. If we spent more time, looking at more places would we have found another spot like this...maybe, but why spend the time looking when you feel you have found your place. For us it is Lakeside - for others it is Guad, or SMA or Zacatecas, or DF.

This is why they invented chocolate ice cream and horse racing! 

Vive la difference!


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## PieGrande

*Good point, but...*



RVGRINGO said:


> We visited, we came back, we bought a home in Ajijic two weeks later, we stayed there four happy years, others made an offer we couldn't refuse, we moved five miles to Chapala, bought another home and we're still here after more than a decade.
> We've had prior experience in other countries and have owned many homes in many places, some built with my own hands. That sort of experience, or the lack of it, may make a difference in the choice to rent or buy. As such, I never make that sort of recommendation and trust that the individual knows himself well enough to make his own decision. Those, who constantly recommend renting for a year or two, seem to forget the expense and inconvenience entailed in moving. Others may look at it as providing a sort of freedom, while those who own property like the security and stability it provides. Then, there are people who need the help of landlords, 'supers', etc. and can't even change a faucet. Many don't even want them as tenants & they should probably never buy property unless they can afford to have everything done for them.
> To each, his own.


The fact you have lived in many countries is an important difference, IMO. You already have learned you can adapt to another nation. My best guess is most retirement expats have never lived long-term in another nation. Over the many years I have been reading books about living in Mexico, and participating in Internet boards, the same figures keep being tossed out. Which is that most expat couples bail within two years.

IF that is true, and I personally suspect that it is, then it is not rational for most first-timers to buy a place until the two years have passed.

If that is not true, then my view would change. It is very hard to get solid figures, not only on how many leave after how long, but even how many true expats from the US and Canada live in Mexico. In past discussions over the years, someone will link a gov't page, and in a few days someone will link a different page with a different number.

In this case, you did very good, because you described your probably unusual circumstances, and your decision as based on long-term expatting in your background made all the sense in the world. For you or anyone else who has lived in other nations for a long time.

Notice another poster came to the same conclusion I have presented, based on his first time status. He really does not know how he will feel in two years.


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## PieGrande

FHBOY said:


> Believe it or not, this Froum is not the Lake Chapala Chamber of Commerce, although sometimes it can sound like it. Moving beyond expat centers for some is too much, too soon and too fast. That only makes people different. For us, I think of we did the "native" route, we'd end up going back NOB - it is too much of a change, a shock, if you will.
> 
> Your experience in Zacatecas was exactly our experience in Ajijic. We came, we experienced and was said we didn't want to look further, it had everything we think we could want. I've read so much about other places, heard so many people ask, "Why did you stop looking?" Why? because we found what we were looking for: climate, proximity to Int'l Airport, large integrated (more than like PV or resort towns) community, slower quieter pace, five hours to the ocean. If we spent more time, looking at more places would we have found another spot like this...maybe, but why spend the time looking when you feel you have found your place. For us it is Lakeside - for others it is Guad, or SMA or Zacatecas, or DF.
> 
> This is why they invented chocolate ice cream and horse racing!
> 
> Vive la difference!


Great posting, FHboy. That is exactly why I have recommended the general Guadalajara area as a STARTING PLACE for men wishing to try Mexico. If they like it fine, but during the first year or so, while they adapt, it offers so much more, based solely on the large number of expats over the years who have chosen to live there as you have done.

Since men are all different, I warn them that most of them will end up moving somewhere, whether into or out of the city, or to another place altogether, once they have somewhat adapted to the culture, and are qualified to evaluate other places.

I am very happy you found your perfect place on the first try. Excellent.

In our case, I expected to live in Mexico City, or Guadalajara. I would have questioned your sanity in 1997 if you had told me I would end up in this horrid, Third World village, and want to live here until I die, then be buried here. But, here I am.


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## RVGRINGO

Statistics and 'damn lies' are often one and the same. The only ones that matter are your very own. I suspect the 'lasting only two years' statistic could be very misleading, since almost all expat employees and government & military personnel are assigned abroad for exactly two years; then they move on to another foreign post, or back to the USA for 'lateral transfers to the exit'. A consular employee, who I met last week, will soon finish his two years in Guadalajara and already knows that he's headed for Japan, for another language immersion and another two years. His toddlers are already comfortable in Spanish & will probably learn Japanese in the first six months. I hate kids!
Other than 'assigned people', the majority, of those we know here, are experienced travelers and/or have lived abroad in the past. All are just as confident as we are, and most of us have 'migrated' without the help of much research; definitely before all this internet stuff, which didn't hardly exist even a decade ago. Life before 'Google', you know? Maybe not!


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## gudgrief

Great point about life before Google. The misinformation may just outweigh the good information by a factor of 10 to 1.


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## FHBOY

PieGrande said:


> Great posting, FHboy... I would end up in this horrid, Third World village, and want to live here until I die, then be buried here. But, here I am.


In 1997 you may not have been able to survive in your "third world village" because you now have something that wasn't as readily available then...the internet. In fact, it may have been even harder to find it. Your isolation was more complete, as was RV's and any one else who moved down BI (before Internet) and just like Adam and Eve, maybe they were better off, less knowledge can be a good thing. If Edison knew more about tungsten, he'd never would have tried to use it in a light bulb. 

If the key to comfort is communication then the following analogy to the way business is transacted through recent history may be relevant. Before telephones, to be successful you needed to place your business in the market you wanted to sell to. (Think local breweries, the corner store, a lawyers office). When the telephone came,you could move a bit away from that location, but you still needed to be somewhere where "the carriage trade" could find you. With the coming of FedEx, TV, and pre-Interent infomercials, the need to be in the "center of things" began to disappear. Finally in the age of the internet, your location has become a lot less important as the medium of communication has dissolved many physical barriers.

So, similarly, you have a large community even if you live in a one-horse town to provide a greater support system. I am not saying that you would not have ended up where you are, but you have to admit you are much more connected than you would have been in 1997.

True pioneers will disagree with this lengthy piece of theoretical bull, but it is one of those topics that deserve attention - I was a mass comm major in college [back when that meant radio and TV and newspapers], and have never given up viewing the world on a communication basis.


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## RVGRINGO

FHBOY said:


> ..................
> True pioneers will disagree with this lengthy piece of theoretical bull, but it is one of those topics that deserve attention - I was a mass comm major in college [back when that meant radio and TV and newspapers], and have never given up viewing the world on a communication basis.


That part hit the nail on the head. Mexico is still a place of true neighborhoods, where you walk to everything you need. A few 'wants' may take you further afield by bike, bus, car or taxi; all of which are choices here. Communication is on the street and in the village square of an evening. Few Mexicans use internet at home & generally walk to a 'cyber' to do homework, or to use the internet; infrequently. One doesn't expect replies to e-mail, or to see too many Mexicans online; at least not unless they are teens. The change is slower here.
Many expats come, buy in a subdivision of some sort because it feels normal; somewhat like suburbia. It isn't normal here & they soon feel isolated & now have to drive everywhere. Everywhere in Mexico lacks parking! Then, they complain. It is an alien culture to them, but they soon become alien to the culture. 
:ranger: is for us old folks, who have lost the energy to run about. It really is lousy, but it is what we have left. Remember, the Industrial Age built the world we know. The Information Age is interfering with individual productivity and industry here and we're seeing the rapid collapse, as a result. We've nothing to sell at affordable prices. All of our communication tools are now 'Made in China'.


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## TundraGreen

RVGRINGO said:


> That part hit the nail on the head. Mexico is still a place of true neighborhoods, where you walk to everything you need. A few 'wants' may take you further afield by bike, bus, car or taxi; all of which are choices here. ...


And that is one big part of the reason I am here!


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## gudgrief

RVGRINGO said:


> That part hit the nail on the head. Mexico is still a place of true neighborhoods, where you walk to everything you need. A few 'wants' may take you further afield by bike, bus, car or taxi; all of which are choices here. Communication is on the street and in the village square of an evening. ...


There are a lot of truths here plus a few exceptions. Young and old both are adapting to a new way of doing things. We have young friends and relatives who use the Internet as much as Americans, also retired friends who are getting to that point. We're definitely in a period of transition. My dentist uses the internet more than any dentist in the US and he's in his 50's, if that is an indication of anything. 

Still, where we live, it's the old neighborhood image except for trips to Walmart and Sams Club for variety and price once a month. If we go out for a walk, we're almost certain to run into people we know and you just have to stop and chat for a few minutes.

But this IS what I came to Mexico for! I knew it 25 years ago and it seemed to be 50 years behind. Today, it has almost caught up in the essentials, for the middle class and above anyhow. Even so, I believe that it will be a long time, if ever, before it loses the one-on-one personal touch.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> That part hit the nail on the head. Mexico...The Information Age is interfering with individual productivity and industry here and we're seeing the rapid collapse, as a result. We've nothing to sell at affordable prices. All of our communication tools are now 'Made in China'.


RV, Alan and Tun: You have just summed up why we are moving. We've lived in USA suburbia while we raised a family for all the "right" reasons, schools, shopping, etc etc, but as we are now by ourselves we want ot find a neighborhood again, where you walk around, where you meet people, where you get together in the afternoon, where there are no pre-arranged "play dates" and having a neighbor knock on your door, unannounced is a possibility.

We are from neighborhoods in New York City, Forest Hills (of tennis fame) and Flatbush, (of Dodgers fame). There we had neighbors who became our friends, we had the corner candy store, the grocery store was around the corner, next to the dry cleaner. The toy store and "big" stores were a walk or bus ride away in the "village", where we all shopped.

We found that vibe in Ajijic - and of all the good reasons to move there, us former hippies loved it. The anticipation of living the way we want, to meeting people face-to-face and not on a keyboard - it is why the next 10 months, until my wife retires, are going to seem so long.

RV: As to communication tools, most of us here are old enough to remember Marshal McLuhan who looked to technology to make a global neighborhood. IT is too bad that his idea has turned into a neighborhood of isolated people. Social networks, yes I am not a fan or participant, has made us less social. My social networking will happen on the street, in a restaurant, at the market or so, where I can use all the communication skills we possess - voice, words, body language, sight - to have real communication.


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## gudgrief

FHBOY said:


> ... we want ot find a neighborhood again, where you walk around, where you meet people, where you get together in the afternoon, where there are no pre-arranged "play dates" and having a neighbor knock on your door, unannounced is a possibility.
> 
> We are from neighborhoods in New York City, Forest Hills (of tennis fame) and Flatbush, (of Dodgers fame). There we had neighbors who became our friends, we had the corner candy store, the grocery store was around the corner, next to the dry cleaner. The toy store and "big" stores were a walk or bus ride away in the "village", where we all shopped.


I'm a Brooklyn boy too, though we moved out to the Island when I was 7.
You express this so nicely, I'm going to save it.

I've been to Ajijic once and it appeared charming.
We live in the centro historico of Zacatecas and it's so close to Bensonhurst in the 40's, I'm surprised I didn't see the connection earlier.

Buying tamales from a street vendor or an ice cream through a store window takes me back to buying a Charlotte Russe or Egg Cream, better yet, a "soft" pretzel that nearly broke your teeth.


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## RVGRINGO

You 'city folk' really are different!  Being a 'Northern New Yorker', way far north of 'Upstate' and even further north of the Adirondacks, we were exposed to some of you after Eisenhower got the Interstate system built; particularly Rt. 87. Wow! You instantly invaded our wilderness, often wearing sneakers, but armed against 'wild life'. You burned camping facilities and injured trails and woodlands, not knowing how to look after yourselves. So, we, and the state, had to remove and restrict you from wonderful wilderness facilities that had been built by our parents and grandparents, just to keep you out, for the protection of the wilderness. 
Mexico will be a 'piece of cake' for you (pan comida), but please try not to hurt it. Change is happening too fast, as it is.
Now, you've reminded me that I could walk a couple of blocks to a little window, where Doña Josefina will pass me a hot, crispy apple turnover.
Hasta luego ......................


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## FHBOY

gudgrief said:


> I'm a Brooklyn boy too, though we moved out to the Island when I was 7.
> You express this so nicely, I'm going to save it.
> 
> I've been to Ajijic once and it appeared charming.
> We live in the centro historico of Zacatecas and it's so close to Bensonhurst in the 40's, I'm surprised I didn't see the connection earlier.
> 
> Buying tamales from a street vendor or an ice cream through a store window takes me back to buying a Charlotte Russe or Egg Cream, better yet, a "soft" pretzel that nearly broke your teeth.


Hey, don't get me started - I miss good NY danish, a real bagel, pizza that actually tastes like pizza, and you may not remember but Chinese food sold from a truck! We grew up in our neighborhoods (she's from B'klyn - and doesn't let me forget it - Ahhhh Nathans clams on the half shell at 2 in the morning) and we both lived our first 30 years in or around New York. Those decades - 50's, 60's and 70's were the golden age (as are all good memories) but most of all there were the people. That's what I want to find----people! People walking around, people outside, even if they aren;t talking to me, I need to see people! Suburbia is nice and clean, but too sterile.


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## gudgrief

RVGRINGO said:


> You 'city folk' really are different!  Being a 'Northern New Yorker', way far north of 'Upstate' and even further north of the Adirondacks, we were exposed to some of you after Eisenhower got the Interstate system built; particularly Rt. 87. Wow! You instantly invaded our wilderness, often wearing sneakers, but armed against 'wild life'. You burned camping facilities and injured trails and woodlands, not knowing how to look after yourselves. So, we, and the state, had to remove and restrict you from wonderful wilderness facilities that had been built by our parents and grandparents, just to keep you out, for the protection of the wilderness.
> Mexico will be a 'piece of cake' for you (pan comida), but please try not to hurt it. Change is happening too fast, as it is.
> Now, you've reminded me that I could walk a couple of blocks to a little window, where Doña Josefina will pass me a hot, crispy apple turnover.
> Hasta luego ......................


You wanna be that way. I could say Zacatecas is changing a lot slower than the Chapala area because the literal handful of non Hispanic gringos who live here work hard to blend in. Well yeah, there are so few of us, we're just an interesting curiosity to the locals.

I never got further north than Glens Falls and not for wilderness, so don't blame me. 80)


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> . . . That's what I want to find----people! People walking around, people outside, even if they aren;t talking to me, I need to see people! Suburbia is nice and clean, but too sterile.


When I was 9, my family left Philadelphia for the boring suburbs, and I've spent the rest of my life fleeing them. I think that's why I've spent most of my adult years living in big or biggish cities (Milwaukee, Boston, Philly again, Barcelona, Madrid, and, best of all, my beloved NYC). Now I find myself living in Mexico City and loving the life I've made for myself here. When I leave my building, there are always people out and about on the street: some I know, some are strangers - some greet me, some do not. In any event, their presence makes me feel like I belong here. I am now part of the human landscape of the colonia Cuauhtémoc.


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## gudgrief

My Mexican significant other was blown away by New York (she'd been to California and Las Vegas) in general but the real bagels, rye bread, pizza, even matzoh ball soup and knishes, she/we couldn't get enough. Ah the Danish, nothing like it anywhere else.


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## RVGRINGO

The ethnic foods are sometimes interesting, but we didn't like all the stuff that came with the city atmosphere in NYC. I won't tell you what I think when some of those 'city folk' come to Mexico and ask for stuff that isn't here. Try Mexican food. It is wonderful. Don't get me wrong; I love Middle Eastern/Mediterranean food, but more the Arabic, Turkish or Greek versions; not the, well, NYC stuff.


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## AlanMexicali

*Danish*



gudgrief said:


> My Mexican significant other was blown away by New York (she'd been to California and Las Vegas) in general but the real bagels, rye bread, pizza, even matzoh ball soup and knishes, she/we couldn't get enough. Ah the Danish, nothing like it anywhere else.


I miss real good cinnamon buns we can still get in San Diego where in Mexico they skimp on cinnamon, butter and icing, but eat one once in awhile anyway. The apple/strawberry turnovers in Mexico make up for that. I did see the Americanized version at Galleria, centro commercial, in Guadalajara though. I wonder if that place is still open there? They were very, very expensive compared to panaderias.


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## mickisue1

I guess I have a different view of the suburbs.

I grew up in a first tier suburb of Mpls, where the kids played in the streets till dark, from mid spring till fall. Five year olds and junior high, didn't matter, we'd all play hide and go seek and run sheep run together.

We couldn't walk to the deli, but we could walk to the Dairy Queen, back when it was still made with real ingredients, and for $.10, get a tiny ice cream cone and an equally tiny root beer, and make our own root beer float.

We'd pile in the car after dinner on summer nights, all eight of us, and go swimming at one of the local lakes, and go on "jammy rides", wearing our summer pajamas, with wet hair from just having had our baths, to get a popsicle or ice cream.

Even today, I find that living in a first tier suburb, by choice, makes the neighborhood feel more of a reality. In winter it's a challenge, with kids in school and parents at work all day, and dark coming at 4:30. But in summer, we still trade cuttings from perennials that have overgrown their welcomes, and stop to talk to the people on their evening stroll in the cul de sac.

You have to do something with the daylight on the long northern summer evenings. Might as well spend it being neighborly.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> I guess I have a different view of the suburbs.
> 
> I grew up in a first tier suburb of Mpls,


I grew up in a working-class suburb called Levittown. A place with no personality, with no downtown, and no public transportation to speak of, except for the local train that took you to Philly. A place where you had to take a car to go anywhere beyond your immediate neighborhood. A place quite different from a first-tier suburb outside of Minneapolis.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> You 'city folk' really are different!...Hasta luego ......................


Yep, definitely still a curmudgeon. I promise that when I move there, I won't bring any of the riff-raff with me and I will refrain from deliberately stomping on trees and flowers and will make a attempt to not shoot all the birds. Oh and I'll leave the cockroaches and rats where they are. Man, talk about generalizations. 

Oh, BTW - I used to love the Poconos - until "they" built an interstate to it, and "they" ruined it, likewise the Berkshires - until that "New York Crowd" ruined it also. Darn aren't we New Yorkers such a blight on the serene Upstaters like you?

Seriously, the most dangerous thing - and you have touched on it - is the danger of bringing or moving the culture to a place that already has it's own and in so doing, destroy or hopelessly modify it. The fact that there is a Walmart at Lakeside makes me hope that the invasion stops with Mr. Walton - I don't want to see an outlet mall, or other non-native big box store, That, RV, is how you begin to ruin a place like Lakeside.

Curmudgeon 

PS: Perhaps instead of building that fence in Texas, they ought to build it at the northern border of the Bronx - what do you say?

Remember I haven't lived there in over 30 years - maybe the New York has begun to rub off.


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## FHBOY

There is an interesting book that came out a few years ago titled "Bowling Alone" it is about the suburbs and the effect on culture. I believe that good suburban experiences like Mnpls are more the norm, but the Levitttown experiment brings a difficulty due to it's size and suburban planning philosophy.

Levittown, NY built on the potato fields of Long Island was the ideal of people yearning for their own affordable [that was crucial] house, in a place where their kids could play and there was fresh air. 

We, at least me as a boomer, are the descendants of those people. I am sure, like I had in New York, you had in Mnpks - we all played outside in our neighborhood, on our block and we can remember all the good things that did. The realities of cars, traffic and the like of suburban America was nothing we were cognizant of. We had great schools, great parks, blue skies - 

Only with age and time, did some of the magic of Levittowns begin to fade away.

Based on this, it explains a lot about why so many Boomers are now living in towns and small cities in Mexico - they are looking for that experience from when they were kids, seeking a community where there are actually people around. I won't denigrate the American suburbs, they were healthy safe places to grow up, but in many cases as we grew up, they became impersonal, sterile, cookie cutter reproductions of each other - the homogenization of America.

 Long winded - sorry - but since I am just about newly retired I've got more time to write - sorry folks.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> There is an interesting book that came out a few years ago titled "Bowling Alone" it is about the suburbs and the effect on culture. I believe that good suburban experiences like Mnpls are more the norm, but the Levitttown experiment brings a difficulty due to it's size and suburban planning philosophy.
> 
> Levittown, NY built on the potato fields of Long Island was the ideal of people yearning for their own affordable [that was crucial] house, in a place where their kids could play and there was fresh air.
> 
> We, at least me as a boomer, are the descendants of those people. I am sure, like I had in New York, you had in Mnpks - we all played outside in our neighborhood, on our block and we can remember all the good things that did. The realities of cars, traffic and the like of suburban America was nothing we were cognizant of. We had great schools, great parks, blue skies -
> 
> Only with age and time, did some of the magic of Levittowns begin to fade away.
> 
> Based on this, it explains a lot about why so many Boomers are now living in towns and small cities in Mexico - they are looking for that experience from when they were kids, seeking a community where there are actually people around. I won't denigrate the American suburbs, they were healthy safe places to grow up, but in many cases as we grew up, they became impersonal, sterile, cookie cutter reproductions of each other - the homogenization of America.
> 
> Long winded - sorry - but since I am just about newly retired I've got more time to write - sorry folks.


There's a world of difference between US suburbs that are really small towns located outside a large city and places like Levittown (I grew up in the one in PA), which were planned and built in one fell swoop. In a previous post, I forgot to mention that in Levittown all the houses in one particular section are exactly the same, except for the color, just like in the song "Little Houses". My parents joined the white working- and middle-class exodus from the city in the 1950s, partly to be able to buy their own house with a yard and trees and so on and partly to get away from people who-were-not-like-them.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Yep, definitely still a curmudgeon. I promise that when I move there, I won't bring any of the riff-raff with me and I will refrain from deliberately stomping on trees and flowers and will make a attempt to not shoot all the birds. Oh and I'll leave the cockroaches and rats where they are. Man, talk about generalizations.
> 
> Oh, BTW - I used to love the Poconos - until "they" built an interstate to it, and "they" ruined it, likewise the Berkshires - until that "New York Crowd" ruined it also. Darn aren't we New Yorkers such a blight on the serene Upstaters like you?
> 
> Seriously, the most dangerous thing - and you have touched on it - is the danger of bringing or moving the culture to a place that already has it's own and in so doing, destroy or hopelessly modify it. The fact that there is a Walmart at Lakeside makes me hope that the invasion stops with Mr. Walton - I don't want to see an outlet mall, or other non-native big box store, That, RV, is how you begin to ruin a place like Lakeside.
> 
> Curmudgeon
> 
> PS: Perhaps instead of building that fence in Texas, they ought to build it at the northern border of the Bronx - what do you say?
> 
> Remember I haven't lived there in over 30 years - maybe the New York has begun to rub off.


 If you had a choice in life, you probably would have chosen to be a philosopher. Right?


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## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> If you had a choice in life, you probably would have chosen to be a philosopher. Right?


You broke the code! In a previous life I was called Socrates! Actually I'm more like Comicus in Mel Brooks' "History of the World" (see scene with Bea Arthur)

Buenas Tardes - para hoy!


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## RVGRINGO

We curmudgeons aren't 'upstaters', as that area is way to the south of us. If we wanted to go 'into the city for lunch', that city was Montreal, PQ.
Yes, there is a big difference between 'suburbs' and small towns outside of big cities. Now, both are being renamed 'bedroom communities', some of which are reaching as far as the Poconos in PA and the Catskills in NY, or what we called 'The Jewish Alps', when whole families would escape the cities for weeks, even the whole summer, while the working father commuted by train on weekends. It was a different world then & most of those huge, once fantastic places are now defunct and part of various state parks, etc.
Meanwhile, we little curmudgeons played in the woods with real guns, rode horses, sailed on the lakes and otherwise lived our unsupervised lives. Maybe we were 'disposable', as families were bigger then, but we learned to make our own stuff and to be resourceful in the wild. Now, if age didn't make it so difficult, we might be the only survivors when 'sheeeeeet hoppen'.


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## PieGrande

A couple pages back someone commented something about the Internet helping me live in this village. I said horrid village. Obviously I don't think so, but am aware most folks would think so. I once thought so, too. But, living here I was able to obtain the necessary services to make it tolerable. I am the only North American in a 750 square mile area, and I know the couple just outside that area.

This is where my wife was born in 1942. I do like the Internet, but would live here without it if I had to.


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## FHBOY

PieGrande said:


> A couple pages back someone commented something about the Internet helping me live in this village. I said horrid village. Obviously I don't think so, but am aware most folks would think so. I once thought so, too. But, living here I was able to obtain the necessary services to make it tolerable. I am the only North American in a 750 square mile area, and I know the couple just outside that area.
> 
> This is where my wife was born in 1942. I do like the Internet, but would live here without it if I had to.


I was the one who commented on the internet. But you have an advantage over some, your _espousa_ is Mexican and it makes it easier and better, because from her you have a social group to integrate into. Two gringos moving to your village, with a modicum of Spanish, I would think wouldn't last that long. Not that the villagers wouldn't be friendly and helpful, I find that Mexicanos are by a large friendly and helpful, but because of the isolation it would be discouraging. In that case, the internet serves as a "lifeline" to the familiar - and its existence would make it that much easier - although I do not think the internet alone can make up for the isolation.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> I was the one who commented on the internet. But you have an advantage over some, your _espousa_ is Mexican and it makes it easier and better, because from her you have a social group to integrate into. Two gringos moving to your village, with a modicum of Spanish, I would think wouldn't last that long. Not that the villagers wouldn't be friendly and helpful, I find that Mexicanos are by a large friendly and helpful, but because of the isolation it would be discouraging. In that case, the internet serves as a "lifeline" to the familiar - and its existence would make it that much easier - although I do not think the internet alone can make up for the isolation.


I was thinking the same thing about Pie Grande's new life in his wife's ancestral village. If it weren't for that family connection, I doubt that he would have been able to become an authentic part of the social fabric of the place.

A linguistic note, while _espousa_ is a cute example of Spanglish, in Spanish the word is _esposa_ .


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> I was thinking the same thing about Pie Grande's new life in his wife's ancestral village. If it weren't for that family connection, I doubt that he would have been able to become an authentic part of the social fabric of the place.
> 
> A linguistic note, while _espousa_ is a cute example of Spanglish, in Spanish the word is _esposa_ .


Thanks, teach - wasn't my fault - the keyboard decided to add a "u". Bad  keyboard!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Thanks, teach - wasn't my fault - the keyboard decided to add a "u". Bad  keyboard!


Of course, it wasn't your fault! Maybe your keyboard is set to Spanglish spelling conventions.


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## NEDave

I guess the thread has detoured! Thanks for the comments on the FOM offering and really hope to meet many of you in the near future!


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## FHBOY

NEDave said:


> I guess the thread has detoured! Thanks for the comments on the FOM offering and really hope to meet many of you in the near future!


We will be in Ajijic the first week of April. I'll post our reaction the to Thursday morning "Judy" seminar, if that will help you.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> We will be in Ajijic the first week of April. I'll post our reaction the to Thursday morning "Judy" seminar, if that will help you.


I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Although it simply repeated what I had already researched, which was rewarding in itself as it confirmed my research, I felt it was very worthwhile.

The reason was explained in another post which you have already read. It got my mind working in that I determined that self-insuring for medical problems resolved one of the biggest obstacles I had to moving to Mexico.

Enjoy your trip. We await your response.


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## PieGrande

FHBOY said:


> I was the one who commented on the internet. But you have an advantage over some, your _espousa_ is Mexican and it makes it easier and better, because from her you have a social group to integrate into. Two gringos moving to your village, with a modicum of Spanish, I would think wouldn't last that long. Not that the villagers wouldn't be friendly and helpful, I find that Mexicanos are by a large friendly and helpful, but because of the isolation it would be discouraging. In that case, the internet serves as a "lifeline" to the familiar - and its existence would make it that much easier - although I do not think the internet alone can make up for the isolation.


I agree very much with this posting. I not only would never recommend anyone move here, but do not even recommend people visit here, except for my daughter who came here before she was a year old. It is just too different from the US. Mexico City and Guadalajara are much easier to adapt to.

However, that couple from the US who live just outside my 750 square mile area have been there quite a while. Of course, they may well be fluent in Spanish. I was told they are here to teach English to the indigenous. I laughed, and said they need a better cover story than that. What many of the indigenous here need is someone to teach them Spanish.

On the other hand, one of my most basic beliefs about human beings is the variation. Almost every human parameter varies on a Bell Curve, and ability to adapt to a totally different culture is one of those variations. They are way off the edge, clearly, just as I guess I am, even with my wife's family. That is why I am the only one here.


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## PieGrande

>>I was thinking the same thing about Pie Grande's new life in his wife's ancestral village. If it weren't for that family connection, I doubt that he would have been able to become an authentic part of the social fabric of the place.

I also believe that. I warn men who are thinking of moving to Mexico they probably should not consider a rural village for that exact reason. Small villages can be very cold places for those who do not have connections. When we first visited here, we would be walking in the street, and as is my norm, I would greet people. In most cases they would not answer until my wife spoke to them. Once it was understood I was part of the Martinez family, I have more friends here outside the family than my wife does.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> >>I was thinking the same thing about Pie Grande's new life in his wife's ancestral village. If it weren't for that family connection, I doubt that he would have been able to become an authentic part of the social fabric of the place.
> 
> I also believe that. I warn men who are thinking of moving to Mexico they probably should not consider a rural village for that exact reason. Small villages can be very cold places for those who do not have connections. When we first visited here, we would be walking in the street, and as is my norm, I would greet people. In most cases they would not answer until my wife spoke to them. Once it was understood I was part of the Martinez family, I have more friends here outside the family than my wife does.


So you warn single foreign men from moving to small Mexican villages for the excellent reasons you mention, but what about single women? Do you think they'd have an easier time fitting in?


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## PieGrande

I do not usually communicate with single women moving to Mexico and if I did, I would not feel qualified to advise them. In spite of strong statements on this board that men and women are fundamentally the same, their experiences can at times be dramatically different. Which is why many women think there must be special protections for women.

I would need to think about it, but my off the cuff response would be it might be unpleasant living in a small rural town for a woman with no family support group. It would depend upon her age and such matters. But, men in these rural villages are rather aggressive.

An older woman in the category of "sweet old lady" would probably have no problem at all. The 'elders' are usually respected. Women would probably befriend her, just my guess.

Women of such a condition to be viewed a temptation to the Don Juans, even if she were not at all interested in their attentions, might find life very chilly.

I need to ask my best friend for her opinion, if I can remember it long enough.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> I do not usually communicate with single women moving to Mexico and if I did, I would not feel qualified to advise them. In spite of strong statements on this board that men and women are fundamentally the same, their experiences can at times be dramatically different. Which is why many women think there must be special protections for women.
> 
> I would need to think about it, but my off the cuff response would be it might be unpleasant living in a small rural town for a woman with no family support group. It would depend upon her age and such matters. But, men in these rural villages are rather aggressive.
> 
> An older woman in the category of "sweet old lady" would probably have no problem at all. The 'elders' are usually respected. Women would probably befriend her, just my guess.
> 
> Women of such a condition to be viewed a temptation to the Don Juans, even if she were not at all interested in their attentions, might find life very chilly.
> 
> I need to ask my best friend for her opinion, if I can remember it long enough.


The longer I live the less I think that men and women are "fundamentally the same" and living in Mexico makes that even more clear! Of course, we are both human beings with rights and responsibilities, but the way we look at life and the world often differ.

I am in my sixties, so I suppose I could be considered to belong to the category of "sweet old lady", but I certainly don't feel that way myself . I can imagine that even at my age the local Don Juans in your village might make me feel uncomfortable if I showed up there alone one day and decided to move in. I guess that not many foreigners come to your village, even for a short visit, so the presence of someone like me could cause quite a stir. 

Thanks for your comments on this interesting topic.


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## NEDave

FHBOY said:


> We will be in Ajijic the first week of April. I'll post our reaction the to Thursday morning "Judy" seminar, if that will help you.


That would be great. Thanks for the info, what a great forum!


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## PieGrande

Sixties? The men in rural Mexico are very sexist and macho, and they would view you as not of interest or concern, unless you look like Raquel Welch, and perhaps not then. Not to offend, but that is the way it is out here. Due to a number of factors, there is an excess of women here, and rural Mexican men do tend to look for -- and find -- much younger women. Also, I estimate at least 5% of young women are actually attracted to what in the US would be considered as old men, if they have assets and are in good health.

I do not mean to anger anyone but the culture here is very different in several respects. I have been and plan to be faithful to my wife of 36 years, and she is from a very long lived family. So, I expect her to outlive me. But, at the same time, I am aware if I were widowed, I would expect to have a wife under 30 years old. Probably a young widow. with young children. Or an unwed mother with one child. (They are really treated badly here.) I am very paternal, and I assure you I would have more children in my life. The people here would not even blink if an old widower took a young woman and her children to care for.

So, as far as age, yes, if you speak Spanish, you could fit in here and probably my best friend might end up being your best friend, too. She is a fine intellectual, and there are few intellectuals here. I still do not think you would like it here, since it is a bit Third World. All the basic functions exist, but then you have people living in houses made of sticks and palm leaves. We go to Tehuacan grocery shopping at least once a month because of the poor selection here.

True, we do not have many foreigners here. But, in this general part of my state, there is a place of international scientific interest which brings people from all over the world. As scientists, not as tourists as such.

Also, they are used to me. So, it would not be like some of the small villages which are ranch based and a foreigner would be viewed much like an escaped lion.

Still, for most people I think the best place to live is their choice of urban centers.

The reason I beat around the bush on differences between the sexes is someone on a thread, not sure which one, made a very negative remark about anyone who believed men and women were fundamentally different. I cannot dispute that belief, but I do think they do have fundamentally different experiences, as a minimum. This is not a political board, and I do not want to start quarrels on off topic political issues with no possible gain for anyone.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> Sixties? The men in rural Mexico are very sexist and macho, and they would view you as not of interest or concern, unless you look like Raquel Welch, and perhaps not then. Not to offend, but that is the way it is out here.


I don't have time now to comment on all of your interesting post, but I did want to say something about the above comment. When I moved back to Mexico a few years ago and started to date, I was surprised to find quite a few men who were interested in me in spite of my advanced years . I know that some of this is due to the "gringa" factor and the fact I look pretty good for my age, but some of it is because the idea of dating a woman older than 25 is not a big turn-off for men with more modern attitudes about relations between the sexes. Of course, I live in Mexico City, not in a rural village like you do, so these differences are only to be expected.


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## PieGrande

Exactly. All part of the reason I think in terms of the urban areas for most people.


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## FHBOY

*Vive La Différence!*

Hey PieG - *Vive La Différence! * 

I am sorry to say there is a difference between men and women and there is nothing wrong with it. I don't see how anyone can argue with biology, or take offense. And hey, if you do take offense, you can speak with Mother [Nature] or the Big Cheese, if you believe in that - but I am thankful every day for the difference!


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## PieGrande

I do think there are differences between men and women. But, when someone not long ago made a very strong criticism on this board of anyone who thinks there are fundamental differences, my desire to avoid unnecessary conflict causes me to walk softly.

As one talk show host used to say, "Is this the hill you want to die on?" And, I do not want to fight about something that unimportant.

I don't think those differences are that dire an issue. Except when someone says there are no biological differences and tries to force their views into law. But, this is not the venue to discuss those issues.


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## FHBOY

If it wasn't going to hijack this thread (again) the difference thing would be interesting.

Discuss amongst yourselves: The Perceptual Differences and Prejudices Between Men and Women From a Socio-Economic and Anthropological Perspective in Regards to Perceived Expectation from Non-Associated Groups" - I'll wait.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> If it wasn't going to hijack this thread (again) the difference thing would be interesting.
> 
> Discuss amongst yourselves: The Perceptual Differences and Prejudices Between Men and Women From a Socio-Economic and Anthropological Perspective in Regards to Perceived Expectation from Non-Associated Groups" - I'll wait.


 
Huh? What?


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## FHBOY

Detailman said:


> Huh? What?


 Well, darn if the D-man can't get it, maybe we should go back the the topic of the thread? What do you say?


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## PieGrande

The owner and staff of a board make the rules, and that is how it should be. Anyone who does not like the operation of a board has two choices. First, leave, and/or second, start their own board.

However, my own view is human beings do wander around a topic. This is normal conduct when dealing with humans, not computers. One of the human variations is some people get real militant about off topic discussions. Stifling free flow of conversation can be a negative with many people. Just saying.


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## FHBOY

PieGrande said:


> The owner and staff of a board make the rules, and that is how it should be. Anyone who does not like the operation of a board has two choices. First, leave, and/or second, start their own board.
> 
> However, my own view is human beings do wander around a topic. This is normal conduct when dealing with humans, not computers. One of the human variations is some people get real militant about off topic discussions. Stifling free flow of conversation can be a negative with many people. Just saying.


PieG: I am in total agreement. I find more info when we get off topic, but someone with less of a sense of humor than I can get nasty about it. 

If I have tried too hard to steer back, it is the demon in me that shouts "Order!" - and I do not love that guy at all.

When I was in business and attending OOT conferences, I found more good information in the halls and at lunch when discussion was unstructured. But I suppose a forum like this needs structure, so let's just grin and bear it. If this becomes a Q & A we become computers, and so far as I can tell we are not computers.

Now, how about them Orioles?


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## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> The owner and staff of a board make the rules, and that is how it should be. Anyone who does not like the operation of a board has two choices. First, leave, and/or second, start their own board.
> 
> However, my own view is human beings do wander around a topic. This is normal conduct when dealing with humans, not computers. One of the human variations is some people get real militant about off topic discussions. Stifling free flow of conversation can be a negative with many people. Just saying.


Actually there are no forum rules telling you you have to stay on topic. The forum does provide a smiley "Back to Topic" implying it is a good idea, but it is not a rule. Mostly it is other posters who are interested in the original topic that get annoyed when the conversation diverges too much.


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## PieGrande

*Good point, thanks*



TundraGreen said:


> Actually there are no forum rules telling you you have to stay on topic. The forum does provide a smiley "Back to Topic" implying it is a good idea, but it is not a rule. Mostly it is other posters who are interested in the original topic that get annoyed when the conversation diverges too much.


What I do when I need more information and the topic has wandered, is simply ask the next question. If no one answers, well, no one is obliged to answer my questions. If my questions do not interest them, I need to Google harder.


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## kb9gzg

So, I'll get back on topic: my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed Focus on Mexico's week on Lake Chapala and environs. Absolutely no real estate pressure; rather, a couple of opportunities to see what's available, and even help in exploring rentals (short- and long-term). Totally inclusive cost. Great new friends. As alums, we can take the seminar again at no cost (excluding housing, food). I had explored on-line info for five years, but learned what we really needed to know about Ajijic's area during the week's program. Money well spent!


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## FHBOY

kb9gzg said:


> So, I'll get back on topic: my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed Focus on Mexico's week on Lake Chapala and environs. Absolutely no real estate pressure; rather, a couple of opportunities to see what's available, and even help in exploring rentals (short- and long-term). Totally inclusive cost. Great new friends. As alums, we can take the seminar again at no cost (excluding housing, food). I had explored on-line info for five years, but learned what we really needed to know about Ajijic's area during the week's program. Money well spent!


That's great! Hope you will find what you may be looking for in Chapala/Ajijic for your future. We did without it [FOM], but I suppose if the cost had been less or we had been less exploratory on our own, we've have joined. That's why they invented chocolate ice cream, not everyone likes vanilla. We do plan on going to the mini-seminar, on a Thursday morning, when we return to Ajijic in August. 
Our DIY procedures were internet exploration, two visits to Ajijic, contact with real estate agents and a lot, and I mean a lot, of feedback from this Forum. Whatever works for you is OK as long as you find what you're looking for.

Hope to meet you in the Plaza one day!


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## kb9gzg

FHBOY said:


> That's great! Hope you will find what you may be looking for in Chapala/Ajijic for your future. We did without it [FOM], but I suppose if the cost had been less or we had been less exploratory on our own, we've have joined. That's why they invented chocolate ice cream, not everyone likes vanilla. We do plan on going to the mini-seminar, on a Thursday morning, when we return to Ajijic in August.
> Our DIY procedures were internet exploration, two visits to Ajijic, contact with real estate agents and a lot, and I mean a lot, of feedback from this Forum. Whatever works for you is OK as long as you find what you're looking for.
> 
> Hope to meet you in the Plaza one day!


Same here, FHBOY (and I like vanilla AND mint chocolate chip)!


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