# So how well-off are the French?



## Chrissippus

While preparing for our eventual move to France I have been paying attention to the cost of living and how the French manage it themselves, which I have some trouble understanding. For example, this helpful real estate site gives some interesting statistics about the Amidonniers neighborhood in Toulouse, which seems to be on the upper-end. But the annual income is given as €27,843 per year which seems low to me. It's not clear whether that is per person or per household.









Le quartier de Amidonniers à Toulouse : population, habitants et statistiques


Présentation du quartier Amidonniers à Toulouse : statistiques Insee, économie, immobilier, plan de quartier, commerces, santé, écoles, avis des habitants




www.bien-dans-ma-ville.fr





There have been a number of stories about a new statistical threshold of wealth, determined by some economists to be €3 673 per person after tax, except that for Paris it comes to €5 790. That amount of income puts you in the top 7% of the French, i.e. rich. Alternatively, a net worth of €490 000 would also put you among the rich.



https://www.femmeactuelle.fr/actu/news-actu/etes-vous-riche-decouvrez-le-nouveau-seuil-de-richesse-fixe-en-france-2135624



These numbers seem low to me, but I spent my working years in Manhattan, which has perhaps skewed my perspective.


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## PinkUnicorn

Maybe you'd fine the CIA world factbook useful for making comparisons...




__





France - The World Factbook







www.cia.gov


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## Bevdeforges

And then, too, "how long is a piece of string?¨ Who's "rich" and who isn't is a function of lots more than just income level (per person or per household). One of the first things I noticed when I first started living "abroad" is that you spend your money in such different ways when you live in Country X vs. your home land. 

Figure something simple like how some huge proportion of personal bankruptcies in the US are caused by unexpected medical bills that aren't covered by insurance. (And take a look at health insurance prices in the US while you're at it.) But that's not really a huge concern here in France, even in households with "pre-existing conditions." 

Further, the current gas (as in vehicle fuel) price increases of late are having their worst effects on those living in rural areas who need to drive to go just about anywhere, or on those whose jobs depend on them being able to travel freely to cover their territory or visit their customers. These are not generally those in the upper income brackets (many of whom may have company cars with fuel and repair costs covered by their employers - or that certainly used to be the case).


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## BackinFrance

I don't see the relevance for expats of how well off the French are or aren't (which varies greatly from one household to the next even if income is the same) and in any case statistics never tell you the whole story and can be presented to suit whichever view you wish to support.

How well off each individual expat would be in France is relevant, but statistics as such are not going to answer that question for you and you will need to do a lot of ongoing research on costs in France and by location/s to get a reasonable and up to date idea.


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## jweihl

This is a good question, and the numbers may not be that far off. I get the idea that there is a significant portion of the french population that does not have a great deal of income, and that wages (compared to the US) are relatively low. I also get the idea that there are very few (comparatively) super rich. Both of these might make the average a bit lower than maybe we'd initially guess. Given the way social services and subsidies, and low prices for things like bread and wine, keep those without a lot of income with a better lifestyle than they'd probably have in the US, and maybe incomes, as measured by take home pay, don't need to be quite as high to keep people out of poverty. As far as I can see, French people spend differently (and less) than people do in the US. I would guess that people buy (and waste) less in France. People seem to also have an eye on making things last a bit longer in France.

I've only had one french person disclose their salary to me. A single mother middle school teacher told me that she earns approximately €24k. Certain high earning professions in the US, particularly in healthcare, seem to earn significantly less here. My physician joked that his coiffeur made more than he does. My optician was very curious about how much more we paid for contact lenses in the US, and was surprised to hear that eyeglasses cost about the same.

So, given these random bits of experience, I wouldn't be surprised to find that your figures are in the ballpark.


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## Lydi

27,843 € is quite a bit above the national average.

There's an interesting chart on this INSEE page (scroll down to figure 5) which compares annual incomes for EU countries. 
If I'm not mistaken France comes 8th. I was surprised to see that median incomes are slightly higher here than in Germany...


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## Bevdeforges

Maybe it's because I'm currently reading The Black Swan, but I find you have to be very cautious about trusting statistical measures of economic phenomena - especially these days, I guess.

Salaries here in France are generally quite a bit lower than in the US. Years ago a friend of mine at university in the US was thinking of taking his newly minted MD degree and returning to live and work in France with it. Changed his mind real fast when he found out how low the salaries are here for doctors - especially straight out of school. Though at about that time, doctors in France were making something like twice the average (or possibly the median) income for all France and all professions. At the same time, doctors in the US were making FOUR times that average or median figure for the US.

And, I suspect things have changed, but also around that time, 85% of the French population were said to want their children to grow up and become "civil servants" (i.e. work for the State) even though the pay for state jobs was remarkably lower than for comparable jobs in the private sector. The reasoning was that a State job offered job security and a "cushy" pension system. Things have changed since then - but in lots of ways, the French attitude toward money hasn't. And the French attitudes toward money have always been very different from US attitudes toward money.


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## Chrissippus

BackinFrance said:


> I don't see the relevance for expats of how well off the French are or aren't (which varies greatly from one household to the next even if income is the same) and in any case statistics never tell you the whole story and can be presented to suit whichever view you wish to support.
> 
> How well off each individual expat would be in France is relevant, but statistics as such are not going to answer that question for you and you will need to do a lot of ongoing research on costs in France and by location/s to get a reasonable and up to date idea.


The insufficiency of statistics to communicate how well-off the French are is exactly why I posed the question. What I would like to know is how it feels on the ground, particularly from Americans and others who have the experience of living in both countries. For instance, how well-off do the French feel they are? How easily do they make major purchases? How indebted are French households? 

I am puzzled that you believe that expats living in France should not be interested in the French themselves.


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## Chrissippus

Bevdeforges said:


> Maybe it's because I'm currently reading The Black Swan, but I find you have to be very cautious about trusting statistical measures of economic phenomena - especially these days, I guess.
> 
> Salaries here in France are generally quite a bit lower than in the US. Years ago a friend of mine at university in the US was thinking of taking his newly minted MD degree and returning to live and work in France with it. Changed his mind real fast when he found out how low the salaries are here for doctors - especially straight out of school. Though at about that time, doctors in France were making something like twice the average (or possibly the median) income for all France and all professions. At the same time, doctors in the US were making FOUR times that average or median figure for the US.
> 
> And, I suspect things have changed, but also around that time, 85% of the French population were said to want their children to grow up and become "civil servants" (i.e. work for the State) even though the pay for state jobs was remarkably lower than for comparable jobs in the private sector. The reasoning was that a State job offered job security and a "cushy" pension system. Things have changed since then - but in lots of ways, the French attitude toward money hasn't. And the French attitudes toward money have always been very different from US attitudes toward money.


This is the kind of information that gives a feel for the economic life of the French. 

My own favorite statistic for the economic power of doctors in the US is that of the top 1% of Americans, 40% are doctors. 
By the way, the threshold of being "rich" in France that I referenced was chosen to be twice the national median income.

"The Black Swan" is a very enjoyable read. The term "black swan" has passed into the financial vocabulary, but what's interesting is how difficult it has been to retain the subtlety of the concept. For Nassim Taleb the essential quality of a black swan is that it is not merely unlikely, but unforeseeable, just like the Australian bird could not have been predicted. However, in its current usage "black swan" is often taken just to mean a large, adverse event. For example, the pandemic was certainly not a black swan since it was the subject of numerous books before the event. The US housing bubble that burst in 2008 was not itself a black swan since housing bubbles had occurred elsewhere, such as Japan in 1990. But the financial collapse that resulted globally was a black swan since the nature and extent of the risk in the debt markets was not understood.


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## Chrissippus

Lydi said:


> 27,843 € is quite a bit above the national average.
> 
> There's an interesting chart on this INSEE page (scroll down to figure 5) which compares annual incomes for EU countries.
> If I'm not mistaken France comes 8th. I was surprised to see that median incomes are slightly higher here than in Germany...


So, the French median disposable household income is even slightly below the Irish. Interesting.


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## Bevdeforges

Chrissippus said:


> What I would like to know is how it feels on the ground, particularly from Americans and others who have the experience of living in both countries. For instance, how well-off do the French feel they are? How easily do they make major purchases? How indebted are French households?


And those are tricky questions here in France for a number of "cultural" reasons related to the French attitude toward money and the French tendency toward gloom and doom in these matters. The French generally don't categorize themselves as "well-off" - either they consider themselves poorly paid, or they're paid well enough, but subject to rapacious taxation. Though to many expats (especially American expats) the "welfare system" here is remarkably generous and the threat of sudden ruin due to medical bills or homelessness is far better controlled here than it is in the States, but there are issues related to "medical deserts" where medical care facilities are simply unavailable due to personnel shortages or lack of facilities in general. 

If by "major purchases" you mean buying a home, there are fairly strict rules related to debt that limit the ability to get "over indebted" in the way that Americans tend to do. And these same rules apply to consumer debt, too. So it's a vastly different playing field here and difficult to compare.


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## Befuddled

Chrissippus said:


> The insufficiency of statistics to communicate how well-off the French are is exactly why I posed the question. What I would like to know is how it feels on the ground, particularly from Americans and others who have the experience of living in both countries. For instance, how well-off do the French feel they are? How easily do they make major purchases? *How indebted are French households?*
> 
> I am puzzled that you believe that expats living in France should not be interested in the French themselves.


My take on the situation only relates to coming from UK. French are not programmed from childhood to expect instant gratification. ie. having anything they want because easy credit is available. I have seen it reported that levels of savings in the US and UK are very low or non-existant and life is mostly sustained on credit. Loss a job usually results in loss of a roof over you head. In France the inheritance rules favour homes going to the heirs automatically. If the offspring want to move away to find work that is when they become enslaved in "the system". Credit is less easy to access generally and the idea of having a wallet full of credit cards maxxed out is not the trend here. In fact I haven't seen a proper _credit_ card here where they appear to be _debit_ cards. A French neighbour here divulged her income. She wasn't working but living on a state disability benefit (hearing disability) of about 1600€ a month. That is almost three times what I am living on from my UK pension. She was well dressed, living in a fully modernised stone cottage (mortgage free), driving a three year old car, and clearly enjoying her existence. 

The notion mentioned above about parents encouraging children to go for a civil service career is sound. Unlike the UK where companies or businesses can be started up in a matter of days and go bust just as quickly the French make it difficult and costly to start up and the taxation starts from day one. A civil service post is a very safe option and offers stability, if perhaps a measure of boredom.


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## EuroTrash

Lydi said:


> 27,843 € is quite a bit above the national average.
> 
> There's an interesting chart on this INSEE page (scroll down to figure 5) which compares annual incomes for EU countries.
> If I'm not mistaken France comes 8th. I was surprised to see that median incomes are slightly higher here than in Germany...


One thing that strikes me is from that chart is that distribution of wealth has to be taken into account. For instance the UK is shown as a thousand euros or so lower than France - but I believe there is a far greater gap between rich and poor in the UK. So the families in the lower half of the pyramid in the UK, ie the biggest spread, presumably have a significantly lower income than the families in the lower half the pyramd in France.

I would say my impression that "feeling rich" and being perceived as rich, is not so much on the radar for most French people but I expect somebody will tell me that I don't understand the French. I know French people who are obviously well off and they get great pleasure out of their holiday homes in the south or their yachts or whatever, but their pleasure actually comes from what they've done with their money, rather than the fact that they're rich. They seem to think of themselves as fortunate rather than rich (interesting word, fortunate - do you have to have a fortune to be fortunate?) and there isn't so much of the "my yacht's bigger than your yacht" or "my holiday home's in a posher area than your holiday home", or even "I know somebody with a bigger yacht or a posher holiday home" that used to get my goat in the UK. All too often when I had contact with people I knew as a student, I used to ask about other mutual acquaintances and rather than saying 'they've done this or that" the response would be 'they've bought this or that'. To me the UK is too much about what you have, rather than who you are and what you've done with what you've got. I like it that France is less like that, or at least, in my little bubble it is.


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## zarathustra

Poverty is somewhat relative too. I once lived in a very affluent part of Paris where it's very much about appearances. Some of the older generations ran out of money long ago, but own expensive large apartments. They maintain the one main room, whilst the rest are run down and turned to ruin.

I live out in the sticks now, where there's a great deal more poverty. Some people are living without electricity or running water. One old chap has a single light bulb in his old run down house, and doesn't even have a concreted floor, just earth. Whilst they're extreme cases, poverty here does not necessarily equate to poor standards of living. Most people have land, and are happy with a life of self-sufficiency, growing food, raising animals, chopping wood, and exchanging with neighbours.


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## Bevdeforges

With all the comments about holiday homes in France, let me point out that very often the "second home" in France is inherited. If Mom and Dad lived in the countryside and were maybe farmers or some other form of agriculteurs, on their deaths, the kids who moved to the "big city" to follow some sort of fancy career have a tendency to hold onto the ancestral property (or at least the house part of it) to share as a vacation home. Tradition is a very big deal here - and if you find people with a chateau as their "holiday home in the country" they either inherited it, or they are foreigners who bought it from someone who inherited it and couldn't keep it up. Family tradition trumps both the price you paid or the "posh" aspects of the area the holiday house is located in.

And this discussion reminds me of when I was newly arrived in France. Came to find out that the word "ambitious" has very very different connotations here in France than in the US and UK. If someone tells you that your daughter's fiancé seems to be an "ambitious" young man, it's not a compliment. Tends to mean that he's kind of a money-grubbing sort looking to climb the career ladder no matter whose body he has to climb over. In the US (at least) saying that someone's intended is "ambitious" is considered a complement and he is likely to make something of himself. (Just a cultural note here, I don't think I've ever heard any woman here in France referred to as "ambitious.")


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## Chrissippus

EuroTrash said:


> One thing that strikes me is from that chart is that distribution of wealth has to be taken into account. For instance the UK is shown as a thousand euros or so lower than France - but I believe there is a far greater gap between rich and poor in the UK. So the families in the lower half of the pyramid in the UK, ie the biggest spread, presumably have a significantly lower income than the families in the lower half the pyramd in France.


Inequality has to be discussed in terms of statistics rather than anecdotes or life histories however useful those are in other contexts. The statistic used to measure inequality is the Gini Coefficient, which is a relative measure for comparison purposes. In the graph below the Gini Coefficient is calculated for income. It can alternatively be calculated for wealth. A Gini of 1 would be perfect inequality, i.e one person would have all the income in a country. A Gini of 0 would be perfect equality where every person received the same income. The UK and US have much higher levels of income inequality than France or Germany while the Nordic countries are the most egalitarian, as expected.


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## Peasant

Bevdeforges said:


> ...at about that time, doctors in France were making something like twice the average (or possibly the median) income for all France and all professions. At the same time, doctors in the US were making FOUR times that average or median figure for the US.


Doctors in the US just out of Med school probably had 10 times the debt (or more) vs their French counterparts, and huge malpractice premiums to worry about.


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## SPGW

zarathustra said:


> One old chap has a single light bulb in his old run down house, and doesn't even have a concreted floor, just earth.


LUXURY! when I was a lad....etc 



zarathustra said:


> Most people have land, and are happy with a life of self-sufficiency, growing food, raising animals, chopping wood, and exchanging with neighbours.


Good point - highlights that the OP's initial question might be more about Quality of Life and level of wellbeing of people in France, if it is a potential destination for living, rather than how financially well-off they (we) are.

As ET points out above, in UK there is a mentality of _having _(second homes, 3rd cars, yachts...) being in indicator of success. I found that even more so in the US (Connecticut) and it was a major contributor to leaving.

In the end, is Q of Life better in Fr? probably yes for most of us, that's why we're here.


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## Bevdeforges

Peasant said:


> Doctors in the US just out of Med school probably had 10 times the debt (or more) vs their French counterparts, and huge malpractice premiums to worry about.


Yeah, and when I was growing up, and doctors made house calls, there was a belief that a doctor HAD TO drive a large, expensive car, like a Cadillac. Cost of doing business in that profession. French medical training doesn't involve taking on massive amounts of personal debt. Nor do many French people go bankrupt due to huge, unexpected medical bills.


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## Bevdeforges

EuroTrash said:


> I would say my impression that "feeling rich" and being perceived as rich, is not so much on the radar for most French people but I expect somebody will tell me that I don't understand the French.


Being rich here in France (especially if you admit to it) is usually associated with corruption and cheating on your taxes. (Otherwise how could you have possibly gotten rich in the first place?) "The rich" are the enemy here - and "everyone" thinks they should be taxed much much more than the "common man." But ask people where the "rich" threshold is - and everyone will say that it's well above their own family income. People here do not openly say that they want to be "rich." And even those that win the Loto kind of fade into the woodwork (or even collect their winnings anonymously).


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## jweihl

Bevdeforges said:


> Yeah, and when I was growing up, and doctors made house calls, there was a belief that a doctor HAD TO drive a large, expensive car, like a Cadillac. Cost of doing business in that profession. French medical training doesn't involve taking on massive amounts of personal debt. Nor do many French people go bankrupt due to huge, unexpected medical bills.


To me, healthcare delivery is among the most strikiing differences between the US and France. The differences in the actual care are not so vast as the way in which care is delivered and the costs one pays. I spent my career in the US healthcare sector (working in health administration and public health) and the differences are stark and profound. In my opinion, the two most screwed up "sectors" in the US are higher education and health care. In terms of innovation and state of art both are world class. Both are also hideously inefficient, expensive, uncoordinated, chaotic, and are key drivers of increasing inequality. This is what happens when let loose capitalistic forces where markets are not actually free and functional. 

I greatly value the french health care system. As an expat retiree it's awesome. It's probably the biggest "pragmatic" reason to live here, rather than in the US.


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## Bevdeforges

jweihl said:


> I greatly value the french health care system. As an expat retiree it's awesome. It's probably the biggest "pragmatic" reason to live here, rather than in the US.


As do I. However, you do need to recognize that the French health care system has its own weaknesses and problems. Hospitals are having to shut down their ER services because of staff shortages (caused no doubt by the stresses and strains of staff who have worked through the pandemic, among other stressors). I see a nearby (to me) private hospital is advertises that they have having a "speed dating" event to try to recruit new staff. And even parts of the Paris area are considered "medical deserts" due to lack of staff and facilities.

You learn to work the system you have to deal with. I'm very happy with the French system, though I acknowledge that there are things that should be fixed. And I would never voluntarily go back to the US system - though from what I've heard, the system over there now is vastly different from what it was the last time I actually lived over there. But then again, the French health care system does illustrate rather nicely much of the difference in attitude toward money and riches here in France.


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## BackinFrance

Pfft, the French public halth care system is in total crisis. Most of us have to call 15 in an emergency and sometimes on the other end of the line will determine whether the patient's problem is really an emergency and if so send out the SAMU (which was the system in place in some areas just prior to the pandemic and resulted in several unnecessary deaths. Here SOS médecins are now on strike and won't come out at all, plus this is a technical medical desert so your chances of getting a médecin traitant are all but non-existent, as are your chances of getting an appointment with any GP within a week (sometimes longer).


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## Befuddled

It sounds like what is called, a post code lottery.
Luckily where I live I can get an appointment to see my doctor within two days easily, and before I learned enough French to arrange for one over the phone I just used to turn up when his office opened and he would see me straight away. 
But don't ask me about dentistry or opticians.


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## BackinFrance

And the CHU in Bordeaux is subject to the same restrictions I mentioned above. That will inevitably impact Toulouse because patients south of Bordeaux who cannot be treated locally are normally sent to Toulouse (although previously they would send patients to either Bordeaux or Toulouse on the basis of which was best equipped to address the specific suspected conditio). Bordeaux also previously took certain patients from the Dordogne when local hospitals were not sufficiently equipped to deal with certain conditions, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is an impact on the public hospital in Périgueux.


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## EuroTrash

Last summer was the first time I saw, at the entrance to a village (can't remember exactly where but somewhere along my route between Normandy and Loir et Cher), a big sign saying "Our commune needs a GP. If you are a GP and you would like to live here, we would love to talk to you" or words to that effect.
Since then, driving around I have seen similar signs maybe three or four times in different places..


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## BackinFrance

And Marseille has the marchands de sommeil, nothing is being done about that.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> Last summer was the first time I saw, at the entrance to a village (can't remember exactly where but somewhere along my route between Normandy and Loir et Cher), a big sign saying "Our commune needs a GP. If you are a GP and you would like to live here, we would love to talk to you" or words to that effect.
> Since then, driving around I have seen similar signs maybe three or four times in different places..


The point of my post is that the medical situation in France is something that spreads like an out of control cancer.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> The point of my post is that the medical situation in France is something that spreads like an out of control cancer.


So, are you planning on moving elsewhere? And if so, where?


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> So, are you planning on moving elsewhere? And if so, where?


???


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## bhamham

And, I went to the CHU in Nantes complaining of chest pains. Only one person at the guichet ahead of me and admitted in less than 5 minutes. Put on a gurney and wired to an EKG in less than 15 minutes. Had chest x-ray and thoroughly examined by a doctor. I couldn't have wished for better service. So, not everywhere in France 'the medical situation is an out of control cancer'. Your constant drum beating is tiring.


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## BackinFrance

bhamham said:


> And, I went to the CHU in Nantes complaining of chest pains. Only one person at the guichet ahead of me and admitted in less than 5 minutes. Put on a gurney and wired to an EKG in less than 15 minutes. Had chest x-ray and thoroughly examined by a doctor. I couldn't have wished for better service. So, not everywhere in France 'the medical situation is an out of control cancer'. Your constant drum beating is tiring.


So? There is apparently not currently a problem in Nantes, but take your heads out of the sand for 5 minutes and check out what is happening in many other parts of France. Ffs even Macron has recognized that there are real problems with staffing of hospitals in France. And France is not the only country where that is the case BTW.


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## Bevdeforges

One (private) hospital near where I live posts on its website the current situation in the ER - how long (on average) it is to receive attention. Very often the time is only 5 to 10 minutes, usually in the middle of a weekday. Yet this same hospital just announced that they are holding a "speed dating" recruitment event to try to hire into staff positions they have been unable to fill. And the problems aren't only in the ER, but rather in the various services - to which the ER are supposed to be handing off their charges once an initial assessment and diagnosis is made. After the pandemic (not that we're there yet, but in whatever stage we're currently in) people are burnt out and it will still be a few years before the first round of students graduates in the post-numerus clausus era. It's not a simple issue to solve.


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## BackinFrance

Trained staff are still leaving public hospitals, it seems to be primarily because of pay and conditions. Pkus of course they are worn out, but they say they see no end in sight for the first 2 and that the segur was inadequate. Well, that is what the public hospital staff are saying. Private hospitals were much less involved in the pandemic, apart from taking some of the non Covid cases that the public hospitals couldn't take. OTOH I think rates of pay for nurses in private hospitals are similar to those that apply to public hospitals.


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## SPGW

Well, on the healthcare position (not the original question of the thread), if like many expats you have family in other countries, you will know that however much the French system is struggling, it is not as bad as in the UK. And the US system is not comparable.


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## BackinFrance

SPGW said:


> Well, on the healthcare position (not the original question of the thread), if like many expats you have family in other countries, you will know that however much the French system is struggling, it is not as bad as in the UK. And the US system is not comparable.


But the OP has said that he is interested in how the French people feel about things and at the moment many ordinary French people are unhappy and also consider that they are being pushed towards the private system at greater cost.


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## SPGW

Funny thing, perception. I read about « feeling well-off », « indebtedness « , « making major purchases », so it seemed pretty finance-wealth oriented and maybe a « well-being » measure (gross National happiness) would be interesting.
But on the « ordinary French feeling unhappy », yes, probably true, now, as much as in the past, and future. Aren’t we (they) generally a negative, complaining type of culture?


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## BackinFrance

My first post, which was very early in this thread suugested that it might be more useful for expats to consider how well off they would be in France and the OP blasted me for that.


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## Bevdeforges

I think we're running into all sorts of "cultural differences" here. The expression "well off" can refer to strictly financial circumstances - or a whole range of other factors, including overall contentment with your life and your circumstances (non-financial) in life. I think if you ask people if they would be "better off" (i.e. "more well off") living in the US or France or any other country, some folks are automatically going to think in financial terms, whereas others will think in other terms.


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## Cossie

Everyone is going to have a different definition of well off,depending on their unique circumstances and what they consider well off Someone maybe financially ‘well off ‘ but be miserable,somebody else comparatively poor but ecstatic


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## BackinFrance

Everything is about perception. I would say from various posts on this thread, and many on other threads, that many expats will readily say that the French always complain etc and that it is a cultural thing, yet complain bitterly about their home country and/or other countries where they live or have lived, to the extent that they have escaped as it were to France. Perhaps it is just a matter of whether or not you choose to stand up for your rights or whatever at home or 'escape' to another country. Or could it simply be a matter of how attached you are to your home country, or just that escaping tends to only be a realistic option for those who are financially better off or able to become so, except in the most extreme circumstances.


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## Befuddled

Interesting idea. 
My _escape_ from UK to France was quite different. I didn't leave because I could afford to. I left because I couldn't afford to stay. Getting too old to continue to do the physical labouring jobs (when I could find them) I found I needed far less money coming in to live in a civilised fashion in rural France. I shudder to think how I would have to live if I was back in UK on less than a full state pension.


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## SPGW

Well that makes sense. Reminds me of this from the brilliant Graham Chapman (M Python):


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## SPGW

Post 43 refers to 41


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## conky2

SPGW said:


> Post 43 refers to 41



Yes but what does post 41 refer to ? I haven't a bleedin' clue anymore........


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> that many expats will readily say that the French always complain etc and that it is a cultural thing, yet complain bitterly about their home country and/or other countries where they live or have lived, to the extent that they have escaped as it were to France


To be honest, most people complain about wherever it is they live. It's the way many folks "make conversation." I do think that it's somewhat "natural" for expats to constantly compare things about where they are living to wherever they come from (which is where this whole discussion about the various medical systems got started). 

There is also the issue of the "focus" of various countries or cultures. Americans tend to compare things in terms of what they cost - the financial side of things - whereas other cultures avoid discussions about money whenever possible. That's what we seem to be tangled up in here - what one person considered "well off" may have nothing to do with how you or I define being "well off" - and may have nothing or everything to do with the financial side of Life.


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## Befuddled

Cutural differences........good point. One of the first things I notice is how when first meeting a Brit, you are shown around the house, sometimes every room. I don't know what this is about but it feels like either showing off or making some sort of sales pitch. It never happened when I lived in the US. And it hasn't happened here in France in the last 20 years. In fact I haven't even seen the inside of more than one or two French owned French houses. 
Cultural difference is one of the things that makes travel so interesting although coping with it is sometimes challenging.


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## Bevdeforges

Maybe within the US there are cultural differences, too, because taking a tour of the house was a very common thing when I was in the US (albeit many years ago not). But I was warned early on that here in France, it's quite rude to ask for a tour of the house and most people won't show you around - unless you're staying for a few days and obviously need to know where the bathrooms, kitchen and other "function rooms" are. 

But this all plays into the notion of how "well off" people consider themselves.


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## ko12

BackinFrance said:


> Trained staff are still leaving public hospitals, it seems to be primarily because of pay and conditions. Pkus of course they are worn out, but they say they see no end in sight for the first 2 and that the segur was inadequate. Well, that is what the public hospital staff are saying. Private hospitals were much less involved in the pandemic, apart from taking some of the non Covid cases that the public hospitals couldn't take. OTOH I think rates of pay for nurses in private hospitals are similar to those that apply to public hospitals.


Don't forget the 15,000 suspended because they refused to accept a Covid vaccine.


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## BackinFrance

ko12 said:


> Don't forget the 15,000 suspended because they refused to accept a Covid vaccine.


Macron says they amount to a handful and even if they were reinstated he says it would make no difference, though I couldn't say how many would be prepared to return to the system nor how many have actually quit. 

That said, they were prepared to be tested as often as required and to wear full PPE at all times and being vaccinated does not prevent us spreading the virus, especially in its current forms in France, though it was more effective in doing so with Delta and previous strains that were impacting France at the time they were suspended.

Given they are not being paid and haven't been for months it is highly likely that they have left the public hospital system.

Edit 
And I personally know of a fair number who ended up bowing to the requirement months ago and returned to work.


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## Bevdeforges

France is hardly the only country that has had retention problems with medical personnel - whether due to Covid or due to overall working conditions or salary levels. The problem also affects private hospitals and clinics, too. As far as people feeling "well off" or not, it depends on what you're comparing things to. I know many French folks who, after hearing about the US health care system exclaim that they are, indeed, more "well off" than the people in the US - where they have "the best health care system money can buy." (But if you don't have the money, too bad for you!)


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## BackinFrance

There are indeed a fair number of countries with no health system at all, and others where health care is only available to those in power, and others with health systems that only the wealthy can afford. And of course we definitely should not forget those massive refugee camps, many in extremely poor countries where large numbers of people die every day because they don't have medical care and the minimum of the essentials to sustain life.


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## ko12

BackinFrance said:


> Macron says they amount to a handful and even if they were reinstated he says it would make no difference, though I couldn't say how many would be prepared to return to the system nor how many have actually quit.
> ...


Seems like a significant 'handful' to me and also to the Senate: "Selon le Syndicat national des professionnels infirmiers, 7 500 postes vacants d’infirmiers étaient recensés en juin 2020, en septembre 2020, ils étaient 34 000 (la France compte de l’ordre de 700 000 infirmiers et infirmières). Aujourd’hui, ce sont 60 000 postes qui manquent selon Thierry Amouroux. Et l’enjeu va donc être de faire revenir au moins un tiers des 180 000 professionnels qui ont cessé d’exercer et qui ont changé de voie. " [9/12/2021 - I don't know whether those numbers include the 15,000 limogés] « Des départs massifs de soignants » : la commission d’enquête du Sénat face à la déliquescence de l’hôpital


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## BackinFrance

The earlier numbers of vacant posts were based on those the government felt it needed to fill and it had chosen not to replace all of the staff who had left for whatever reason.


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## BackinFrance

Oh, and since the link is from early December it would not include the 15,000, or whatever the real number was, who had been suspended. Suspensions are not vacancies because they could return to their jobs if they got vaccinated.

Like any Senate Inquiry, they were trying to gather testimonies about the situation.


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## BackinFrance

France continued to close public hospital beds throughout the Covid crisis and continues to do so to this day. That includes maternity wards, some of which have been completely shut down (I think Oloron is one of those and that patients have been told to travel to distant hospitals, or in cases where there are known dangers to take up some kind of provided accommodation in that distant location, far away from support of loved ones, though I can't remember what the specific charges are by situation.


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## Bevdeforges

Maybe we ought to start a new thread (in the Bistro) about the current list of problems in the French health care system. We seem to have drifted off the notion of how well-off the French are (or aren't) in strictly financial terms.


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## BackinFrance

I don't believe the OP intended the thread to be about purely financial issues but by all means do as you cjood. Perhaps separate threads about issues one clearly being hrzoth.


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## Bevdeforges

I don't have the time or the energy to go back through this thread to separate the two topics. So I will just close this one and let whoever wishes to do so to start up one or more new threads.


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