# How Spain's 15 M movement is redefining politics



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Exract from the article

Is this a long-term solution to Spain's debt problems? Certainly not. But actions such as these are starting to change the perception and the dynamics between citizens, government regulators and economic interests. Furthermore, they are forcing politicians to reconsider how they take part in the policy-making process – a growing trend here is public officials voluntarily disclosing assets. They are turning into a reality what Harvard scholar Yochai Benkler presciently called in 2006 the "networked public sphere".

Full article here.
How Spain's 15-M movement is redefining politics | Diego Beas | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky in Torrejon even the sceptics in my family are beginning to notice the effects of this. Protected flats are now more commonly seen and support is widespread. I like it 

It is like the peasants are slowly crumbling the bottom of the walls of the mighty citadel. I wonder if Rajoy has any idea what he is taking on


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?
That is what will determine the shape and direction of Spanish politics.
As I have said before, as long as professional politicians run things, engagement with them, imperfect as many are, is the only way to bring about change in a democracy.
I want to see a change as much as anyone but these inchoate movements are not the way to bring it about.
Groups that want to see different final outcomes and whose unifying theme is a desire for 'change' are not going to have an impact on 'real', grubby politics.
They may provoke some discussion among certain sections of the public and that can only be good - but a serious force for change??? No.
In order to do that they need to infiltrate the established parties. And a few well-thought -out policies might help...
It's easy to say what you are against, not so easy to say what you are for.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

good morning Mary 



mrypg9 said:


> So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?QUOTE]
> 
> Protecting flats of unfortunates will have little impact. Basically this is the people ignoring government and taking into their own hands what the government should be addressing. It also illustrates how you can do more than demonstrate, you can [agreed possibly only a small and temporary way] change things.
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hi much-missed NigeL!!
As I see it , the problem is how to break the grip of unelected financiers and speculators (as well as legitimate investors) over government economic policies.
Governments need to borrow for historical reasons -all governments have deficits - and the power of markets to raise interest rates to a crippling level can severely restrict the government's room to manoeuvre.
Wrong wrong wrong.....we all agree on that. I don't think that even the most unaware citizen needs street demos to bring that home to them.
The markets are demanding precisely the sort of economic policies that are leading Europe into recession. Even the IMF has called for less austerity, more growth....a conversion of Damascene proportions.
The EFSF has been set up as a rescue mechanism to bail out troubled peripheral economies such as Greece, ROI and Portugal. Of these Greece is insolvent, the others illiquid -Portugal hovering on the brink of insolvency. A structured default of maybe 50 -60% is inevitable for Greece and will be more costly thye more the rest of the Eurozone procrastinates. But the illiquid nations need a restored, guaranteed cash flow until growth returns to put them back on a stable footing.
What if there were an international lending reserve, a pool of finance from any nation wanting to take part, totally independent of the commercial lending market and at the disposal of states that wanted to simultaneously reduce their deficits and promote growth?
Obviously that initiative wouldn't be supported by doctrinaire right-wing governments committed still to a weak form of laissez-faire,but if the EU can get together to finance a rescue bid then surely it could somehow construct a low interest investment fund dedicated to public and privare sector job creation?
It seems so simple there's bound to be reasons why it can't be done...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> good morning Mary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?
> That is what will determine the shape and direction of Spanish politics.
> As I have said before, as long as professional politicians run things, engagement with them, imperfect as many are, is the only way to bring about change in a democracy.
> I want to see a change as much as anyone but these inchoate movements are not the way to bring it about.
> ...


In the article it says... (underlining mine)


> The next step is to start thinking in terms of outcomes. Not in the traditional electoral sense – it won't change the result of the election, nor should it try to. It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation. It needs to create a sense of hope among the general public that, alongside the established tired politics of old – which we still need, otherwise Spain would become like Egypt or Tunisia – a new layer of political participation is collectively being woven.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> In the article it says... (underlining mine)



Meaningless waffle like that is why, after over forty years, I stopped reading The Guardian.
All hope-speak. Like a sandwich with no meat. But what do you expect from a paper that supported the Lib Dems in 2010? Of course the outcome of the election will matter, especially to lower income families who will be hit even harder if the PP implement more budget-cutting austerity measures. 
Concise, achievable plans are what is required and I have yet to read of one.
The power of the market over state borrowing must be broken before any change can be made.
Ideas on the back of a postcard?

And what does this mean in practical terms???

* It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation*

Who will do the 'redefining'? What is meant precisely by 'metrics'? How do we need to 'redefine and understand political participation'?
There's far too much empty verbiage and romantic posturing and not enough attention to where we are now and how we can realistically kick start change.
And the fact is that you start with what you have got, i.e. powerful political parties, and work in them to change.
Why? Because representative (not mandated) democracy is the best way found so far in a modern, hi-tech society of receiving and responding to the opinions of such citizens as wish their voices to be heard.
There are too many of us and life is too complex for us all to sit in the market place and deliberate as in Ancient Greece.
There are also very many political opinions to be listened to and reconciled as we live -thankfully -in a pluralist society.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Meaningless waffle like that is why, after over forty years, I stopped reading The Guardian.
> All hope-speak. Like a sandwich with no meat. But what do you expect from a paper that supported the Lib Dems in 2010? Of course the outcome of the election will matter, especially to lower income families who will be hit even harder if the PP implement more budget-cutting austerity measures.
> Concise, achievable plans are what is required and I have yet to read of one.
> The power of the market over state borrowing must be broken before any change can be made.
> ...


Goodness me Mary. It means what it says. 
To you it's waffle, to me it's a beginning. You think it's a romantic posture. I can assure you I've never thought of politics or debate as romantic!
You're right, it's not solid, hard hitting or well defined 'cos it's not meant to be. Concise achievable aims are in the process of being formed, but considering that many people know very little about the way we live at the moment, and many people think they don't care, the first thing is to give us the opportunity to understand and then let us decide.
Even without that understanding we know where we are now, all too well. In the sh!t. Some people are asking for a change, and trying to do smth about it. You are of the opinion that change won't come through this movement. Others believe change is on it's way, but you have to think differently, outside of the present system.
And that's where you are now, outside looking in and not understanding.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> There are too many of us and life is too complex for us all to sit in the market place and deliberate as in Ancient Greece.


But that is exactly what we are doing and only the current failed system sees it as a threat. Now why might that be? 

And as for waffle I point you towards PP and PSOE policy


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Goodness me Mary. It means what it says.
> To you it's waffle, to me it's a beginning. You think it's a romantic posture. I can assure you I've never thought of politics or debate as romantic!
> You're right, it's not solid, hard hitting or well defined 'cos it's not meant to be. Concise achievable aims are in the process of being formed, but considering that many people know very little about the way we live at the moment, and many people think they don't care, the first thing is to give us the opportunity to understand and then let us decide.
> Even without that understanding we know where we are now, all too well. In the sh!t. Some people are asking for a change, and trying to do smth about it. You are of the opinion that change won't come through this movement. Others believe change is on it's way, but you have to think differently, outside of the present system.
> And that's where you are now, outside looking in and not understanding.



I understand very well
Spain needs growth which means jobs which means revenue to put back into quality social services and improved public amenities.
To achieve that growth you need state financial input. Spain's credit rating has been fuerther downgraded so the cost of borrowing has risen.
So....how to finance growth?
That is the key and only issue.
The rest is debating stuff.
The majority are not interested in 'metric' and 'redefing accountability'.
They want jobs and decent wages to feed their families and that can only be achieved through first using our current system, flawed though it admittedly is.
In a year's time we'll see which of us is right -and I mean in the practical not philosophical sense.
What I am really afraid of, here and in the UK, is that all the street protest and so on will be treated as a mere sideshow, political theatre, avoiding the hard truths of where we are, and that in both countriews it will be 'business as usual'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> But that is exactly what we are doing and only the current failed system sees it as a threat. Now why might that be?
> 
> And as for waffle I point you towards PP and PSOE policy



Yes, I agree with your last sentence. That's why we need to get in and change it.
The current system sees these movements as a nuisance, not a real threat. Despite The Guardian and what some might think, they have scant effect outside the 'thinking classes'.
Wait a year as I said.
The majority of the voting public will tell you what they want.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The majority of the voting public will tell you what they want.


The trouble is the majority of the voting public are not given sufficient information, nor sufficient education, nor sufficient thinking/reasoning power to be able to make a rational decision and see through all the fog and smokescreens that politicians put about. FACTS are what they need and they get precious few of those without some political spiel being attached to them according to the leaning of the person/s imparting those facts.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The trouble is the majority of the voting public are not given sufficient information, nor sufficient education, nor sufficient thinking/reasoning power to be able to make a rational decision and see through all the fog and smokescreens that politicians put about. FACTS are what they need and they get precious few of those without some political spiel being attached to them according to the leaning of the person/s imparting those facts.


I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid. Most people can see very clearly that they are being led up the garden path and they simply disengage from politics, as is of course their right.
There actually very few political or economic facts per se. It's the interpretation that counts, as you say. Politics is value-based.
Just as with the question of the effects of supermarkets, there is with politics almost an information overload. TV, tabloid and broadsheet press....there is plenty of information for those who want to know.
Far too many people perceive that governments are helpless in the face of market pressures and are resigned to issues affecting their lives being decided beyond their national Parliaments. It's apathy, not lack of information, reasoning power or education that keeps people from the ballot box. That and the fact that even in these hard times the working majority are doing reasonably well...interest rates are low, businesses are slashing prices to compete and so on..
I do think that more education is needed but of a type that encourages broad conceptual thinking and imparts deep historical knowledge of how we came to be who we are, where we are and what we are.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid. Most people can see very clearly that they are being led up the garden path and they simply disengage from politics, as is of course their right.
> There actually very few political or economic facts per se. It's the interpretation that counts, as you say. Politics is value-based.
> Just as with the question of the effects of supermarkets, there is with politics almost an information overload. TV, tabloid and broadsheet press....there is plenty of information for those who want to know.
> Far too many people perceive that governments are helpless in the face of market pressures and are resigned to issues affecting their lives being decided beyond their national Parliaments. It's apathy, not lack of information, reasoning power or education that keeps people from the ballot box. That and the fact that even in these hard times the working majority are doing reasonably well...interest rates are low, businesses are slashing prices to compete and so on..
> I do think that more education is needed but of a type that encourages broad conceptual thinking and imparts deep historical knowledge of how we came to be who we are, where we are and what we are.


Mary, although I like your post, I disagree with your disagreeing. I never said that people were stupid just that they didn't get the FACTS without some form of spin on them. Mirror, Express, Times, Telegraph, Gruniad, M**l readers will all get the same facts but each presented with a different spin which will then be further confused if they watch the television (Beeb, Sky, ITV, CBS, etc.) so it becomes very difficult for the average person to sort the wheat from the spinning chaff and make any really informed choice when it comes to voting. Whom or what, in fact, can they reliably believe?

The situation is no different here in Spain - the PP, PSOE, IU, UPD and all the various nationalist and anti-nationalist parties that make up the Spanish political scene each have their own views and adherents and , as in UK, not one of them will own up to any involvement in the various elements of the present situation not one of the alcaldes, diputados, senadores, etc will hold up his or her hand and say "My cheating the system and lining my own pocket is, in part, responsible for the financial mess my village, town, community, province, country is in; it isn't me, it's the others!" The other parties are responsible, etc...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Baldilocks very good points IMHO. But Mary also knows that the system is broken. She however believes a bit (or perhaps a lot) of tinkering within will resolve the problem. 

Sadly if the solution relies on tinkering within the PSOE it is going to be a very long road before anything gets done. And why after so many opportunities that PSOE have wasted, after so many lies, why should we believe them?

Mary you offer that "Spain needs growth" and that I seriously question. The argument that Spain needs growth so the young can pay tax to pay for an ever growing aging population has been shot down in flames before. It is not a sustainable solution. And Spain is so deep in the mire it would need growth on a German scale to make any difference.

However I do believe working towards community sustainability is a strategy worthy of exploration. And of course M-15 and DRY are the places where such open minded approaches can be discussed. Sadly the current breed of PSOE and PP politicians cannot do that. They have too much to lose. Their snouts have been in the trough. Their thinking is limited. There German minders bark and they whimper (and that is sincerely not a criticism of Germany).


ps My 80 years young MIL has just received a letter from the Spanish government (PSOE) saying that while they agree she should have a mobile alarm she will have to wait until 2013 as they have no budget. Odd how they already know the PP budget plans or could it be just another lie


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Odd how they already know the PP budget plans or could it be just another lie


Odd how YOU know the results of the election in advance - it's not Florida, you know!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I understand very well
> Spain needs growth which means jobs which means revenue to put back into quality social services and improved public amenities.
> To achieve that growth you need state financial input. Spain's credit rating has been fuerther downgraded so the cost of borrowing has risen.
> So....how to finance growth?
> ...


Your reply imo reveals exactly what I was saying about not having the concept of 15 M and others clear. Taking your last point first. _In a year's time we'll see who is right. _About what? Have I, or others said that in a year's time XXX will have happened, changed, revolutionised? Will this movement change any results in the upcoming elections for example. Once again I'll say no, or at least not the change some people are thinking of. The only change might be that even fewer of the PSOE and IU vote as they are very disillusioned, therefore helping the PP even more. In a year smth will have happened or will be starting to happen, but it's not likely to be in mainstream politics, so you'll probably miss it 'cos that's where you seem to be looking. 
Spain needs growth, not necessarily where you say it does, but investment is needed. Why can't that be included in 
*It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation ?
*I can't see that that statement excludes investment or growth. As I said maybe in different areas to those you have named...
BTW when people say, and there have been several of us who have said the same, that many of us are ignorant of the ins and outs of the systems we live under, we're NOT calling people stupid. It's saying the systems are so complex that they are not easily understandable. This complexity makes them flawed and easy to manipulate. If the majority of people, and I believe we are the majority, find these areas imposible to maneuver through they need to be explained in lay terms. Bienvenido a 15M


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid.


This what is known as getting the wrong end of the stick. See post above


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

On 'Newsnight' yesterday Paxman interviewed Michael Moore who seems to be the self-appointed spokesman for the U.S. branch of this movement. He deftly and surgically exposed the serious flaw at the heart of this movement....it is inchoate and divided in its aims and has no workable plan for bringing about the change we all want. Moore was a maze of contradictions: he stated he wanted an end to capitalism but later said he wanted to see taxes on businesses raised....He deplored the current state of politics and politicians but when asked who would be 'in charge' of the actual day-to-day running of the country he had no answer other than a load of waffle.
Let's clarify:
we are all agreed that the current system is inefficient and unfair. It rewards the few at the expense of the many and elevates private above public good. It encourages and maintains an unacceptable level of inequality and pays scant attention to environmental concerns. Imo there are many other failings but let's concentrate on the above which are surely the most urgent.
But think below the surface and the differences arise.
The Dry and similar movements call for an end to 'capitalism'. I presume they are advocating some form of 'socialism' or even anarchism. But there are very many forms of capitalism, some comparatively benign and which have delivered a better life for most people than any past or present socialist regime has done.
I abhor the current Anglo-Saxon neo-con free market variety which has created our present crisis situation. I want a society served by the market not subservient to the market. But I and the majority of people in Spain and elsewhere want reformed capitalism, not socialism, anarchism, collectivism of any type. We want reform not revolution. So I cannot give unqualified support to a movement which fails to recognise these important distinctions.
The movements rightly complain of the lack of accountability and transparency in the democratic process but have no real scheme for replacing our representative democracy. The sheer size and complexity of modern hi-tech society renders it difficult if not impossible for the average citizen to be in possession of all the information about every facet of the issues which is needed to make a fully informed judgment on most if not all of the complex political and economic questions. Similarly it is impossible to have any kind of representative democracy in a society of tens of millions of electors without some kind of political organisations (aka parties). How could Jose Rodriguez present a programme to the citizens of his home pueblo let alone the region or nation with access to publicity and money? 
It must not be forgotten that there are two arms to government: legislative and executive, the latter actually charged with running the state services. These people are a key element in any reform. They must be won over as they can impede any scheme they disapprove of. Think Sir Humphrey....
Nigel says Spain doesn't need growth...but without growth how can we create jobs and put money into the economy and via taxes into public services and welfare systems? Over four million people need work. The private sector cannot provide that so the public sector must and to do that it needs to borrow and that currently at crippling interest rates because of market forces.
It might help if the huge percentage of revenue denied the state via the black economy was actually put to productive use via paying of taxes, iva and so on..
I have as little idea as anyone how to break the hold of the market over national economies. I've made one rather feeble proposal in a previous post. But that is THE key issue and none of these movements has an answer to that.
It must be remembered that these movements are not representative of the millions of citizens. They are a vocal minority. They pose no threat.
But if they were to the consequences could be dreadful. 
We are seeing too many similarities to the inter-war years. The result of street protests and disorder then in nearly every country where they occurred as a response to mass unemployment was violent state repression and fascist or communist dictatorship.
I'm not saying that will happen here but it must be considered. We live in a plural society and most people detest disorder of any kind.
So...we agree on the problem but are debating the solution - an armchair version of 15M.
Maybe we can define a programme...
And I'll be Miss Estepona 2012.....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> On 'Newsnight' yesterday Paxman interviewed Michael Moore who seems to be the self-appointed spokesman for the U.S. branch of this movement. He deftly and surgically exposed the serious flaw at the heart of this movement....it is inchoate and divided in its aims and has no workable plan for bringing about the change we all want. Moore was a maze of contradictions: he stated he wanted an end to capitalism but later said he wanted to see taxes on businesses raised....He deplored the current state of politics and politicians but when asked who would be 'in charge' of the actual day-to-day running of the country he had no answer other than a load of waffle.


Sounds just like all the other political parties, then!

Perhaps you should resurrect the Marian Party!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Sounds just like all the other political parties, then!
> 
> Perhaps you should resurrect the Marian Party!


I'm just glad I'm out of it all! I'm just an armchair politician.
Do you ever think back to the days when MPs actually had some experience of working life outside politics and the more genteel professions, Baldy?
You know, when Labour MPs had real knowledge of working people's lives at the sharp end and Tories had run businesses and met payrolls?
Now MPs from both main parties have scant if any experience outside the world of politics, the media, PR and so on. Many have never known a job not on the public payroll.
Ah for the days of yore....
Mind you, we all thought they were a bunch of t*****s then....
Plus ca change, as the French say..


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm just glad I'm out of it all! I'm just an armchair politician.
> Do you ever think back to the days when MPs actually had some experience of working life outside politics and the more genteel professions, Baldy?
> You know, when Labour MPs had real knowledge of working people's lives at the sharp end and Tories had run businesses and met payrolls?
> Now MPs from both main parties have scant if any experience outside the world of politics, the media, PR and so on. Many have never known a job not on the public payroll.
> ...


The great pleasure of our present position is that we can fire broadsides at all of them without showing our own colours. Modern politicians seems just to have a degree in something (usually one that is totally unsuited to any worthwhile career that might be of any use to either womankind or mankind) and a background that is, at best, dubious (or would be if they didn't manage to keep it well hidden). One thing they do have to be is flexible to be able to (a) bend over backwards to kiss the a*ses of certain people, and (b) perform so many U turns.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*Street protest "against capitalism" appears to have nowhere to go. The rioters of Athens and Madrid, the marchers of Milan and Frankfurt, the squatters of London and New York can grab a headline and illustrate a story, but then what? With no leaders, no policies, no programme beyond opposition to status quo, they must just sink into the urban background. 
Travelling this week from the protest camp at St Paul's in London to Occupy Wall Street in New York, I found the message as thin as the attendance. *

This from a piece by Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian'.
I think it sums up neatly the problems of these 'movements' .


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

_*Spanish government "resolving the crisis" appears to have nowhere to go. The politicians of Athens and Madrid, the advisors of Milan and Frankfurt, the civil servants of London and New York can grab a headline and illustrate a story, but then what? With no leaders, no policies, no programme beyond opposition to status quo, they must just sink into the urban background. 
Travelling this week from Westminster London to Wall Street in New York, I found the message as thin as the attendance. 
*_
This from a piece by John Doe in 'The Forum'.
I think it sums up neatly the problems of these 'governmental systems'


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> _*Spanish government "resolving the crisis" appears to have nowhere to go. The politicians of Athens and Madrid, the advisors of Milan and Frankfurt, the civil servants of London and New York can grab a headline and illustrate a story, but then what? With no leaders, no policies, no programme beyond opposition to status quo, they must just sink into the urban background.
> Travelling this week from Westminster London to Wall Street in New York, I found the message as thin as the attendance.
> *_
> This from a piece by John Doe in 'The Forum'.
> I think it sums up neatly the problems of these 'governmental systems'


But you are underlining my point, Nigel. The current national leaders have somewhere to go. But they are going in the wrong direction and we all know that. They have policies that propagate the status quo.
So...where are the answers? What are the alternatives? This so-called movement is not providing them.
Opposition is the easiest thing. Coming up with detailed -and any dramatic policy change MUST be detailed - is something else.
It's a distraction, a day out. No doubt those sitting outside St Paul's and elsewhere have a great sense of righteous anger. I share their anger.
They are calling for an end to capitalism. So what will they put in its place? Does this mean they want Marks and Spencers, Mercadona, Next,, Cortes Ingles etc. taken from their 'owners' -probably our pension funds -placed under state control? If so, they will get very little public support.
They talk about 'real' democracy and 'transparency'. What does this involve, exactly? How will our legislators be chosen? Will there be representative democracy or will those chosen have a mandate? How can information free from capitalist bias be more transparent than information with a capitalist bias?
Now I want to see an end to cappitalism too but I am more precise....I want to see an end to the current Anglo-Saxon free-market model, the laissez-faire Friedman model.
But I and 99.9% of European people do not want a simple capitalism/socialism swap. Much of Eastern Europe has in the last two decades seen true people's movements which swept away socialism, not capitalism.
What I want is a form of capitalism based on the Rhineland model. I want a social market not a market society. That's the model of capitalism -call it social democracy if you prefer -that has raised the economic and social wage of more people than any other system and which has developed a degree of freedom not enjoyed by those living under state control by the left or the right in any country in the world.
I have no time for gesture politics, 'glorious defeats' or other distractions which are frankly irrelevant and downright dangerous in that the majority of people watching these sometimes violent protestors on tv more often than not deplore the disorder and welcome a more restrictive approach to civil liberties.
The usual comment on these people is not 'Oh how wonderful, they are fighting for our children's futures'.
Sadly, the usual comment runs along the lines of 'I bet they are all on social security benefits and I'm working to keep them'..
That I'm afraid is the reality.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> *Street protest "against capitalism" appears to have nowhere to go. The rioters of Athens and Madrid, the marchers of Milan and Frankfurt, the squatters of London and New York can grab a headline and illustrate a story, but then what? With no leaders, no policies, no programme beyond opposition to status quo, they must just sink into the urban background.
> Travelling this week from the protest camp at St Paul's in London to Occupy Wall Street in New York, I found the message as thin as the attendance. *
> 
> This from a piece by Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian'.
> I think it sums up neatly the problems of these 'movements' .


Well, that just fits in nicely with your views on the movement, doesn't it? 
Can you post a link to the article mrypg9?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> _*Spanish government "resolving the crisis" appears to have nowhere to go. The politicians of Athens and Madrid, the advisors of Milan and Frankfurt, the civil servants of London and New York can grab a headline and illustrate a story, but then what? With no leaders, no policies, no programme beyond opposition to status quo, they must just sink into the urban background.
> Travelling this week from Westminster London to Wall Street in New York, I found the message as thin as the attendance.
> *_
> This from a piece by John Doe in 'The Forum'.
> I think it sums up neatly the problems of these 'governmental systems'


I prefer John Doe's views as printed in "The Forum" to Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, that just fits in nicely with your views on the movement, doesn't it?
> Can you post a link to the article mrypg9?


And the point of that comment is???? Yes, it does fit in nicely with my views. Just as the pieces you quote fit in with yours.He is a serious commentator and a good judge of events. Another comment (Saturday's Guardian) from one of these naive people: 'The problem is money. We must get rid of money'. 
Oh, I see....The next time I need a pack of knickers from M&S I'll go and offer the cashier a couple of oranges from the garden.
Simon Jenkin's piece was on Friday, I believe. Can't post a link but I didn't make it up
You have great faith in these people. I don't. To me it's a futile and irrelevant distraction from the real structural problems, but harmelss until the rent-a-mob return from Dale Farm and start inciting violence which of course turns public opinion against the lot of them.. 
I have said why in some detail. I have also suggested a rather simplistic solution, i.e. a state-funded borrowing bank to lend to states at low interest, free from market forces. I would consider nationalisation of banks Europe-wide to be an important part of this.
Now...instead of dismissing the points I and others have put forward, how about addressing them?
Some simple questions: the main plank of these movements seems to be 'an end to capitalism'.
Do you agree with this? Do you want to see M&S, Mercadona etc. under state control?
If not state control, how would business, large,medium and small, be organised in this capitalist-free paradise?.
What precisely should take the place of our current representative democracy?
If private ownership is abolished -and remember most large businesses are owned by shareholders aka our pension funds -how would they be *managed?*
Management, efficient management, isn't a debateable option, it's an urgent necessity today's economy.
If people want to sit in squares and talk naively and idealistically, fine. When it gets cold they'll go home. Debate is essential but it must be based on the real and the achievable, not fantasy.
And don't believe that this 'movement' represents a majority. It doesn't. I doubt if 1% of the populations where these 'movements' are taking place support them.
We need practical and equitable political solutions and we can't wait. Take the eurozone's problems: nothing is being done to address the structural problems. These are the incompatability of the member states, the huge euro-zone debt and the lack of policies to promote growth. The current 'solution' merely puts a bandage on them.
Fact: this motley crowd is calling for 'an end to capitalism'.
So: do you agree with that or not?
I don't.I want to see an end to a particular kind of capitalism. No other alternative will be accepted by the majority of people. They do not want collectivism, socialism, anarchism, trotskyism etc. 
They want an efficient, fair capitalism and that is why these 'movements' are irrelevant. 
Collectives don't work on a small or medium scale - think back to the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders, Ludlow-Fisher Pressed Steel under Tony Benn, and, most tellingly of all, the feminist Spare Rib collective.
The idea of handing over the management and direction of government in the twenty-first century to a group of earnest but naive idealists isn't alarming, it's laughable.
The rich and powerful can sleep peacefully if this is the 'threat' they are faced with.
You described me as 'cynical' because I lack faith in these movements. I hope I have explained why I hold this view.
These movements do not hold a monopoly on righteousness, you know, although some of their spokespeople come across as secure and unchallengeable in their beliefs as any religious fanatic. 
We live in a pluralist society where some form of compromise and consensus and engagement with reality are the only ways forward.
So...can we have a few answers, pracxtical, applicable ones?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I prefer John Doe's views as printed in "The Forum" to Simon Jenkins in 'The Guardian'.


I prefer peaches to nectarines.
I'm surprised that you, a highly intelligent woman, can post that....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> And the point of that comment is???? Yes, it does fit in nicely with my views. Just as the pieces you quote fit in with yours.He is a serious commentator and a good judge of events. Another comment (Saturday's Guardian) from one of these naive people: 'The problem is money. We must get rid of money'.
> Oh, I see....The next time I need a pack of knickers from M&S I'll go and offer the cashier a couple of oranges from the garden.
> Simon Jenkin's piece was on Friday, I believe. Can't post a link but I didn't make it up
> You have great faith in these people. I don't. To me it's a futile and irrelevant distraction from the real structural problems, but harmelss until the rent-a-mob return from Dale Farm and start inciting violence which of course turns public opinion against the lot of them..
> ...


There was nothing behind the comment - honest! It was just stating the obvious. There are times when I try to be sarcastic or even witty, but that wasn't one of them!
I'll look for the article myself.
Must take dog out (lovely dog, but as she gets more comfortable with us, is turning into a chewer which now includes the front door - argghh!) Will try to read your post later mrypg9


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I prefer peaches to nectarines.
> I'm surprised that you, a highly intelligent woman, can post that....


¿¿¿??? but it's true!
I *do* prefer the opinion posted by nigele2, rather than the Guardian article bloke.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ¿¿¿??? but it's true!
> I *do* prefer the opinion posted by nigele2, rather than the Guardian article bloke.


As is your right.
But I would -genuinely -like to understand just what these people would see as a *practical* solution...
Believe me, if I thought they had one, I would be in Madrid with dog and sleeping bag, joining them.
I view the future with great foreboding -my future, with low interest and exchange rates threatening my standard of living. So I can only imagine hoew young people must feel with no prospect of a job, a home of their own, a secure family life.
All the fault of a naive, impractical ideology based on greed and speculation.....the free market economy..
But I want to see a specific kind of change and I want to see it sooner rather than later.
All this talk from the UK Government that 'we are all in this together' sickens me.
OH has gone out with Our Little Azor. We have had torrential rain and violent overhead thuinderstorms with eyeball-searing lightning. I predict a speedy return of OH and OLA.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> As is your right.
> But I would -genuinely -like to understand just what these people would see as a *practical* solution...


Mary I would ask you to try and forget people who understand something of fairness and justice whom you only seem to know via sensational press comment and focus on the people you are supporting who you admit are running in the wrong direction.

If there was any sense of common decency among the PSOE they would have resigned some time ago admitting that they are not equipped to govern. And don't tell me that they are protecting us from disastrous PP policies. The PSOE have demonstrated that they know little about economics and should leave any judgments to those better equipped to do so.

It is evident that DRY and friends have realised that things need to change. They didn't choose to be thrust into polotics. It was a necessity. They are currently gathering information and developing solutions. There lack of policies is due to wanting to take due consideration in a democratic way. However the policies will come. The problem is these policies will need to be long term, take into account fairness and justice, and be transparent. Not just short term, based on lies, vote gatherers.

Sadly your PSOE friends have no wish or are incapable of helping the people they claim to represent. 

To put it another way you are on a plane and the crew are dead and a terrorist is flying you straight towards a large building. You can sit around reading "Biggles flyer guide" and die or you can smack the guy and do your best, as ill equipped as you may be to fly the plane lane: 

There are under nourished kids in Spain, old people dying sooner than is necessary, and young people over 30 with no hope of a house, a family, a job, a future.

I appreciate most people with money and power are reluctant to give anything up. I appreciate that many ill-informed think the unemployed are unemployed by choice. I appreciate that some naively think a bit of tinkering of the system and all will be OK, I appreciate that many with money think it is best to turn a blind eye to corruption.

But I and many others think they are wrong and are determined to do something about it. And we won't go away because the morons who control Spain say "leave it to us, we know best". 

ps Remember when the skeptics here thought DRY would last a couple of months


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary I would ask you to try and forget people who understand something of fairness and justice whom you only seem to know via sensational press comment and focus on the people you are supporting who you admit are running in the wrong direction.
> 
> If there was any sense of common decency among the PSOE they would have resigned some time ago admitting that they are not equipped to govern. And don't tell me that they are protecting us from disastrous PP policies. The PSOE have demonstrated that they know little about economics and should leave any judgments to those better equipped to do so.
> 
> ...



So...exactly what are you doing, Nigel? You are doing what I am doing....talking. Just what they are doing except I am asking questions and want answers. We all want change. All you are doing is repeating a mantra: system's broke, no point tinkering etc. etc. You and DRY can keep on repeating that for years, decades. You won't bring down systems, you won't threaten anyone.
You have no teeth until you can put forward some FEASIBLE solutions. And yes, DRy have thrust themselves into politics, as is their right. The right of all minorities is to protest but serious ones havev solutions not slogans.
I take exception to your comments as to what I understand about 'fairness and justice', Nigel. I have spent most of my life actively working to achieve those ends. I would suggest I have done more in that respect than any starry-eyed 'protestor' in that I have helped get people homes, jobs, helped them with very many urgent practical problems. And yes, I know all about unemployment, evictions. First hand. And tried to do something about it. I have also sat on my arse in public places and marched for jobs, against racism, against nuclear weapons...So I don't need patronising lectures, thankyou. And I hope you are not insinuating that I am indifferent to corruption or think that people are unemployed by choice. If so, that it is a reprehensible slur and you should explain precisely what you mean. 
As for my 'friends' in PSOE...if you had bothered to read an earlier reply to a post by Baldy you would have seen that I have zero faith in the policies of PSOE and of PP who will sadly but surely form the next Spanish Government with or without the permission of DRy because that , I fear, is what the majority want. You seem more interested in telling your grandchildren about glorious defeats than in achieving change NOW.
A horrible air of sanctimonious self-righteousness is entering this debate. You and the motley groups that make up these movements are not sole owners of the right to protest, you know.
So...when these groups call for an end to capitalism, do you support them?
If so, you are on a loser. The only successful people's movement in revent years has been for capitalism.
And if you do, then how will our technologically advanced economy be run? How precisely will jobs be created? Who will *manage* this utopia? In many respects management is more important than government as management runs things and has the power to obstruct.
What you fail to realise is that DRy etc. is nothing new. 
I marched against capitalism in the sixties, seventies and early eighties. Then I rested my feet and started using my brains.
So...instead of idealism -which most of us still have -how about answers? 
And it's not just the young who need them. Older people are caught up0 in this crisis too. We can't wait forever for the Kingdom of Heaven on earth..
So...let's have some proper debate instead of rather unpleasant innuendo, Nigel. Unlike those with closed minds which seems to be the case with the Trots, Anarchists, Heinz 57 varieties of leftist groups which form an important part of this motley crew, I am open to persuasion.
I repeat ad nauseam: I want an end to laissez-faire capialism and want a social market model in its place, the model as in Germany principally.
And your vision is?
And please don't go on about justice, equality etc. etc.....most of us want those. 
We take that for granted. The real debate is about how we achieve them.
And you and DRy aren't participating in that.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

* The PSOE have demonstrated that they know little about economics and should leave any judgments to those better equipped to do so.*


And who are they, Nigel????
Only asking...
Surely not the protestor who seemed to think I could exchange a bunch of bananas for a pack of M&S knickers...


*To put it another way you are on a plane and the crew are dead and a terrorist is flying you straight towards a large building. You can sit around reading "Biggles flyer guide" and die or you can smack the guy and do your best, as ill equipped as you may be to fly the plane * 


Or you can sit on your arse on the runway,, debating and arguing amongst yourselves, feeling morally superior, doing sod-all to avert disaster.
I like your analogy Nigel as it deftly illustrates the flaw in your argument: trying to fly the advanced supersonic jet which is the modern- not Biggles - flying machine is not for untrained amateurs. Either you or the terorist will crash the plane.
To elucidate: 'terrorist' = free-market economy. Ill-equipped smacker =well-meaning but untrained 'protest movement'.
Both will take you to disaster if allowed to take control.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*ps Remember when the skeptics here thought DRY would last a couple of months *

I didn't put a time scale on as I don't think it matters. It's real impact on outcomes not longevity that counts.
There are movements, religious sects and political parties which have been around for years all over Europe.
Even when it's clear they are fighting for a lost cause they continue.
Why? Because like fanatic Christians, Muslims etc. they are religious fanatics propagating a secular belief and immune to reason.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mary one minor thing I am doing is trying to ensure this and other forum get a balance of views. 

I also try to answer questions within my limited ability based on spanish meetings, protests, discussions and writings, and of course first hand experiences of spanish hardship. 

As you know I do not believe your efforts in the past protesting was a waste of time and changed nothing. Leaders who ignore public opinion and disgruntlement do so at their cost. Yes you didn't get 100% your own way but within a democracy why should you have? 

The world is I'm happy to say better now than 40 years ago and better than 40 years before that. A big thank you to all those who stood up and expressed an opinion or pointed out an injustice (including you Mary). They all played their part in formulating the future.

Finally I believe that Spain has specific issues and I see the impact of these directly on my Spanish family and while it is obvious that their are major issues with global economics I would not want Spanish issues to get lost in the mire. 

There is of course progress. One thing that pleases me is the exposure of the baby kidnap problem. The participation of the Catholics and the blind eye of the authorities I hope will now be pursued fully and openly. But with the current Spanish government system as we know things can get swept under carpets. 


As for being on a loser even Napolean met his Waterloo


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary one minor thing I am doing is trying to ensure this and other forum get a balance of views.
> 
> I also try to answer questions within my limited ability based on spanish meetings, protests, discussions and writings, and of course first hand experiences of spanish hardship.
> 
> ...


I wish I could agree with you about the world being a better place, Nigel. We may have seen the end of one form of oppression (the Socialist bloc) but others are taking their place. The neo-con free-market economic philosophy has done as much if not more to impoverish, enslave and generally oppress people all over the world than socialism.
But what should replace it?
A system based on some kind of market exchange seems to me to be the only viable option. Any system that is merely 'fair' but which is inefficient is an inadequate replacement. Financial systems must work, trains must run on time, factories must produce and so on. Socialism has been proved to be neither fair nor efficient and socialist regimes have always had to rely on oppression and control of their citizens to stay in power. Even existing 'socialist' states such as Venezuela, Cuba and China have had to bring in elements of the free market in order to revive their failing economies.
The issue should be not abolishing capitalism, as these movements are united in demanding. Such calls will never get the support of the majority of the public. It should be about focusing on real reform. Social democracy has been proved to be the best way of improving the lives of working people not only in material terms but in terms of the social wage and of political freedom.
Spain seems to me to be a split nation in a fundamental way which I've mentioned before. It still has the Catholic tradition of collective social responsibility which is strengthened by the anarcho-syndicalism of the traditional Spanish left. Yet the years of Franco rule prevented the emergence of the social market economy characteristic of Germany, the Netherlands and France, to name the chief examples of that philosophy. In these countries the market serves, not rules, society. 
Sadly, the current global dominance of the financial markets as in the free market Anglo-Saxon economic model is pressurising even these states towards neo-liberal policies.
A fair and inefficient society as I see it is one where we would have government where necessary, business where possible, with progressive taxation from the profits of business invested in quality social services and welfare benefits.
I believe in state ownership and control- but not delivery- of many essential public services. The utilities, education, health, police, essential transport should all be under public ownership and control but not delivery. A system of franchising with high quality service delivery agreements, renewable on proof of performance, would be my option.
I'm beginning to think that retail banking should be nationalised although I'm not sure about that yet. More thinking needed....Retail and investment banking should certainly be separate.
The Government -all Governments -should have access to borrowing based on low-interest bonds from sources not subject to market pressures. Again I'm not sure how this would work but if the EU can set up the EFSF to 'save' Greece it could surely do so to enable Governments to invest in growth-promoting policies.
I know this sounds like 'back of an envelope' stuff but it has more substance than the 'Smash capitalism' slogan of the assorted global protestors who are merely doing what young and old have been doing for years, namely putting the world to rights.
We did it over wine and spliffs in student bedsits, this lot are doing it in public spaces. Don't let's fool ourselves into thinking this is a new phenomenum, it isn't.
But at this time of deep crisis, it's a distraction from the real issues. 
Fiddling while Rome burns.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mary we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps the main problem is that for you the system seems to be important and that on a global scale. I accept that is understandable as you are not Spanish, have few assets there, and are not dependent upon it for your future. Your concerns however are important and impact billions around the world.

I am more concerned with Spain and really don't care which system is used as long as it is seen to be based on fairness and justice for all. I believe the current one in Spain is not.

I like your idea of sitting on the runway doing nothing. Those sitting there may think they can sit back and do nothing but when a plane lands it can be a dangerous place. However unfortunately for me and my Spanish family we are on the plane so whatever happens on the runway is of no great urgent concern.

I appreciate you think DRY and company are slow in formulating their plans, and what you hear in the press at the moment is not anything like the end result, but likewise I do not see sitting incumbents moving in any direction beyond that of protecting their pensions.

ps If you can get the radio to work and have enough fuel on a modern plane you have a pretty good chance of survival. But you also have the chance to ask among the passengers who might have a contribution to make. Maybe if PSOE and PP had stopped squabbling for a while and listened to the many who saw this coming then the pain would be somewhat less 

Anyway enjoy your Sunday :couch2:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Unfortunately if the PP get in, it will be no better. Virtually all political parties view their particular ideology as being the solution to the problem whatever they are (ideology and/or problem). The PP as with all right-wing parties are capitalist orientated and believe in high unemployment to give maximum business profits so how they will manage taking over a high unemployment from the Socialist (who typically reduce unemployment but haven't managed to do so lately because of external - US corruption for one - factors) remains to be seen.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps the main problem is that for you the system seems to be important and that on a global scale. I accept that is understandable as you are not Spanish, have few assets there, and are not dependent upon it for your future. Your concerns however are important and impact billions around the world.
> 
> I am more concerned with Spain and really don't care which system is used as long as it is seen to be based on fairness and justice for all. I believe the current one in Spain is not.
> 
> ...


No, Nigel, passengers who are ignorant of how to work the controls cannot be expected or trusted to fly the plane safely. And Dry aren't in the plane. They're not even ground crew. They are in the spectators' gallery. I don't think DRy are slow in formulating their plans. They don't have plans. They are telling us what we already know, that the current model doesn't work. 
Spain cannot solve its problems in isolation. You cannot look at Spain as if it is a special or separate case. Spain is part of the EU, the OECD, the G20 and it contributes to the IMF and other transnational organisations. It sells its bonds on the international money market and is exposed to the whims of speculators.
Why can't you answer a simple question??? I'll ask again: do you agree with Dry when it calls for an end to capitalism?
A simple yes or no is all that is required. 
Why the hesitation? I've been posing that question for weeks and had no answer.
I could be forgiven for thinking that you realise the deep pit you fall into if you answer 'Yes' to that simple question.
And we are not disagreeing, Nigel.
Our only difference is that I am suggesting ways forward, policies, outcomes that could be realised if a party genuinely committed to change adopted them and put them into a more practical form. You haven't put forward one single practical suggestion or tentative policy for real achievable change. You have failed to engage with my suggestions. You keep telling us a bunch of well-meaning but muddled people who incidentally can't agree amongst themselves will save Spain. 
Baldy is right....neither PP or PSOE have the will or in the case of PSOE the energy to make bold changes.
If you are serious about change, tell us how you thing it could be achieved and what the new society would look like.
And puleese....don't say it will be fair, equal, non-exploitative etc....that's not an answer.
We all want that, it's a given.
We want to know HOW these will be achieved.
So...please say whether


1) you want to see the end of capitalism _*in its entirety*_
and if so
how this will be achieved without bloodshed as it will be against the wishes of the majority
or
2) like me you want to replace the current neo-con/laissez-faire/Anglo-Saxon model with a more equitable, just social market variant.

After all, you know what you don't like. So ...what do you want to see as a replacement?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Unfortunately if the PP get in, it will be no better. Virtually all political parties view their particular ideology as being the solution to the problem whatever they are (ideology and/or problem). The PP as with all right-wing parties are capitalist orientated and believe in high unemployment to give maximum business profits so how they will manage taking over a high unemployment from the Socialist (who typically reduce unemployment but haven't managed to do so lately because of external - US corruption for one - factors) remains to be seen.



Businesses don't want high unemployment, Baldy. That may have been true a hundred or so years ago but it's not true now. High unemployment means that people and other businesses have less money to spend and that government spending on unemployment benefits etc. will increase. Dividends and high unemployment do not go hand in hand.
What unenlightened business leaders want is a government that will guarantee low taxes, low wages, loose regulation and curbs on union power.
Larger businesses now are owned not by wealthy individuals but by investment funds. They are interested in a vibrant low-inflation economy. You don't get that with high unemployment.
All political parties in the west support capitalism. It's the model of capitalism that determines whether the economy is run for the few or the many.
And high unemployment in Spain has nothing to do with 'US corruption'. It is down to the false expectations invested in the property boom, the dual employment contract system, the ridiculous laws relating to redundancy payments, the lack of investment in green-tech industry and the fact that Spain's borrowing rates are unsustainable. You could add to that the fact that the black economy syphons off a vast amount of much-needed government revenue.
Both PSOE and PP are to blame for the situation in which Spain now finds itself.
Neither has a viable solution to the mess they have created.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ....
> Why can't you answer a simple question??? I'll ask again: do you agree with Dry when it calls for an end to capitalism?
> A simple yes or no is all that is required.
> Why the hesitation? I've been posing that question for weeks and had no answer.......


Here Mary is the policy statement of DRY. I believe in it totally, every word. But for the life of me I see no where that it suggests an end to capitalism 

We are ordinary people. We are like you: people, who get up every morning to study, work or find a job, people who have family and friends. People, who work hard every day to provide a better future for those around us.

Some of us consider ourselves progressive, others conservative. Some of us are believers, some not. Some of us have clearly defined ideologies, others are apolitical, but we are all concerned and angry about the political, economic, and social outlook which we see around us: corruption among politicians, businessmen, bankers, leaving us helpless, without a voice.

This situation has become normal, a daily suffering, without hope. But if we join forces, we can change it. It’s time to change things, time to build a better society together. Therefore, we strongly argue that:

The priorities of any advanced society must be equality, progress, solidarity, freedom of culture, sustainability and development, welfare and people’s happiness.

These are inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: the right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development, and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.

The current status of our government and economic system does not take care of these rights, and in many ways is an obstacle to human progress.

Democracy belongs to the people (demos = people, krátos = government) which means that government is made of every one of us. However, in Spain most of the political class does not even listen to us. Politicians should be bringing our voice to the institutions, facilitating the political participation of citizens through direct channels that provide the greatest benefit to the wider society, not to get rich and prosper at our expense, attending only to the dictatorship of major economic powers and holding them in power through a bipartidism headed by the immovable acronym PP & PSOE.

Lust for power and its accumulation in only a few; create inequality, tension and injustice, which leads to violence, which we reject. The obsolete and unnatural economic model fuels the social machinery in a growing spiral that consumes itself by enriching a few and sends into poverty the rest. Until the collapse.

The will and purpose of the current system is the accumulation of money, not regarding efficiency and the welfare of society. Wasting resources, destroying the planet, creating unemployment and unhappy consumers.

Citizens are the gears of a machine designed to enrich a minority which does not regard our needs. We are anonymous, but without us none of this would exist, because we move the world.

If as a society we learn to not trust our future to an abstract economy, which never returns benefits for the most, we can eliminate the abuse that we are all suffering.

We need an ethical revolution. Instead of placing money above human beings, we shall put it back to our service. We are people, not products. I am not a product of what I buy, why I buy and who I buy from.

For all of the above, I am outraged.

I think I can change it.
I think I can help.
I know that together we can.

I think I can help.

I know that together we can. :clap2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This is from The Observer.
Makes sense, to me at least...It applies to Spain and the UK equally.


*
The system is broken, here's how we fix it. Don't tinker with ringfencing banks. Break them up as the first step to creating an effective local lending infrastructure. This is not pie in the sky. This is what the German banking system looks like. Its local public savings banks have supported small businesses and ordinary people throughout the recession, where big banks run away at the first sign of trouble. No annual pantomime of Project Merlin is required for our industrial competitors.

Don't create new money just to feather-bed bankers and enrich the wealthy. Create new money to create new jobs and new wealth. Use quantitative easing directly to fund the renewal of our infrastructure, to build the new green economy, eradicate fuel poverty, reskill the unemployed and tackle the climate crisis at the same time.

Don't let people become the slaves of distant creditors. It's time to talk of a massive relief of debt. The UK's problem is not really the public deficit that so obsesses the chancellor, but private household debt and the daunting treadmill that awaits a generation of young people burdened by student fees, relentless rents and a housing market that is still in the realms of fantasy.

Don't wait for money to trickle down. Experience shows that, left to its own devices, it will flood upwards. We can start by setting up local barter currencies in every city that help new enterprises use wasted land, buildings, resources and people. Ultimately we need more dispersed ownership and control of the nation's natural, human and financial capital. We need to restore large sections of the financial industry to the mutual ownership that served this nation so well until the scandalous smash-and-grab raids of demutualisation in the 1990s.

In short, we need to reassert the public interest. It turns out that, as a governing principle for the financial system, greed is not good. Financial plutocracy must give way to financial democracy – banking as if people mattered.*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Here Mary is the policy statement of DRY. I believe in it totally, every word. But for the life of me I see no where that it suggests an end to capitalism
> 
> We are ordinary people. We are like you: people, who get up every morning to study, work or find a job, people who have family and friends. People, who work hard every day to provide a better future for those around us.
> 
> ...



That, Nigel, is NOT a 'policy statement'. Policies involve plans, detailed descriptions of how to achieve, implement and manage changes. That is a wish-list. It is full of good things, strange it leaves out apple-pie and motherhood. I would give it 6 out of 10 if a sixth-form economics student presented that as a blueprint for change.
*
The priorities of any advanced society must be equality, progress, solidarity, freedom of culture, sustainability and development, welfare and people’s happiness*.
*These are inalienable truths that we should abide by in our society: the right to housing, employment, culture, health, education, political participation, free personal development, and consumer rights for a healthy and happy life.*

Does anyone disagree with that? 

Can't you see that it is so woolly and vague that it is meaningless? It tells us what they are against but not what they are for. Conservatives and anti-capitalists will never agree on the kind of change needed. I can't believe anyone could be impressed by that woolly waffle.
As for not explicitly calling for an end to capitalism (it's not clear exactly what they are calling for) it is affilated to a global 'movement' whose placards and slogans do call for an end to capitalism.
If that is the best they can do we will NEVER see the changes we need. 
This is a great distraction, a sideshow. No threat to anyone, really. Plutocrats can sleep safe in their beds.
Could you not give us your own answer to the questions I put, though?
We're not living in a fascist or socialist state, no-one will come to lock you up...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> This is from The Observer.
> Makes sense, to me at least...It applies to Spain and the UK equally.


This appears to be a quote from an article by Tony Greenham which also appeared in the Guardian 16th October 2011. Tony is Head of Finance and Business at nef unless he has moved on very recently. 

Not sure he is actually promoting the death of capitalism either if that was the point of your post.

But sounds like a guy with ideas and talking to him might well give benefit.

Not sure why it has relevance to Spain and the UK in particular as I think we agree that the fundamental banking issues are across the board and need to be resolved globally. And any such resolution in isolation is likely to leave Spain even worse off.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mary you have totally lost me. Fundamental rights are abused in Spain and that is why DRY has gone back to basics. Having established the basics you can move forward with the details.

Just because you understand it doesn't mean Aznar, Rajoy and Zappie do. It doesn't mean the PSOE and PP management and backers do. It needs to be said. Do you think bent alcaldes know it? Do you think the heads of Spanish banks understand it? Do you think those like hundreds of spanish lawyers who openly handle illegal transactions 'because that's the way it is' know it?

As for DRY you may be amazed, you may think it is a useless cause, you may think we are wasting our time. But my step daughter is 27 and has nothing. My 80 year old MIL is now paying cash for free prescribed drugs at the farmacia (and what I wonder happens to the old who do not have the cash?). Lots of the family are unemployed and those that have not already stopped receiving dole money will soon join those who have. 

All I can say is if you cannot offer any viable alternative Mary then please do not critise those who are trying to do just that. If you think the answer lies within the PSOE then please offer us the solutions and tell us what you are going to do to those of PSOE who broke the rules, demonstrated extreme naivety and incompetence, and those that just lied to line their own pockets.

Enjoy


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> All I can say is if you cannot offer any viable alternative Mary then please do not critise those who are trying to do just that. If you think the answer lies within the PSOE then please offer us the solutions and tell us what you are going to do to those of PSOE who broke the rules, demonstrated extreme naivety and incompetence, and those that just lied to line their own pockets.
> 
> Enjoy


Firstly, I have offered alternatives which are:

working within established parties -in this case the PSOE - to change policies and create new platforms which deal with the structural problems of the Spanish economy as well as to create electoral lists which contain candidates committed to implementing those policies
(I say PSOE not IU for obvious reasons - It is the only party apart from the PP which is capable of forming a Government). This tactic aka 'entryism' worked well in the British Labour Party in the '80s. Unfortunately it was employed by a Trot groupuscule whose influence on the Manifesto for the 1983 election gave Labour its worst ever defeat. If you are right in your assumption that DRy has majority support this won't occur

the policies which should be the focus of the programme should be on releasing the economy from the grip of financial speculators - in the UK this can be done by QE which I believe is not permitted by eurozone rules so an alternative strategy, which could include an investment fund specifically set up for this purpose backed by secure but low-interest Treasury Bonds, cash from which should be invested in job-creation schemes with special focus on the young unemployed;

a further measure of liberalisation of the labour laws is urgently needed as small and medium-sized businesses are reluctant to take on workers on permanent contracts because of the crippling redundancy payments which they would have to pay in a downturn and are relucatant to train workers on temporary contracts;

encourage the establishment of sources of private venture capital to fund start-ups and further investment in new green-tech industries and other socially useful industries;

A thorough reform of the PAYE equivalent tax structure to make the tax burden more progressive without penalising enterprise and a restructuring of the autonomo scale, coupled with a serious attack on the anti-social black economy which deprives the government of revenue for welfare benefits and thus creates a vicious circle;

a commission of enquiry into the banking system with possible nationalisation of retail banking and further consolidation of the cajas;

further pursuance of legal remedies against those who break the law and confiscation of the assets of those guilty of corruption or other malfeasance....


That's for starters, Nigel. I have other ideas about social, economic and foreign policy - much-needed reform of the eurozone, to name one instance.
So please stop saying I have no ideas for alternatives, Nigel. That is simply and obviously not so.
My concern is this: DRy is a convenient distraction for politicians who can point to the naivety and vacuousness of that kind of 'Policy Statement' to camouflage their own lack of direction and coherent policy. 'If that is the only alternative on offer', they will rightly say, 'surely it's better to trust us than a bunch of inexperienced romantic idealists'.
The majority of Spanish people would be happy with a social market economy which works in society's interests. They want to work within the system but with fundamental adjustments and alterations. They want a pluralist society where a range of opinions can be voiced but they realise that voting systems must be efficient as well as fair. They will accept a degree of inequality, recognising it as inevitable, but resent the current vast gulf between the haves and have-nots.
They want change but are fearful of it - a normal human reaction common to many of us.
We cannot sit on our arses for the next decade arguing about abstract concepts and ideal societies. For 99% of the Spanish population Dry has no meaning other than to draw a small amount of attention to a situation they know well from first-hand experience. That kind of talk is for late nights and wine in smoky bars....and is great fun because it is divorced from real decision-making which is tough and unglamorous.
Don't kid yourself: Dry is not the talk of the bars and cafes. As I see it from the Spanish media there is no real 'political' talk and I doubt this will improve when the campaign starts in earnest.
All that stuff in the DRy POlicy Statement/aka Wish List is second-hand. Much of it comes in other words from the 1948 UN Charter of Human Rights, the European Convention on Human Rights etc....
Therre is little to disagree with there because there is nothing that says HOW these ideals will be brought to fruition.
Sadly, Nigel, it is you who has no alternative other than support for ideals we all share and would like to see in practice.

Incidentally, other than extolling the virtues of DRy, what are you actually doing?
I confess I shall not be helping PSOE in this election, although a card-carrying member. I have already said what I think (albeit in bad Spanish).
To be honest, I am slightly ashamed of having helped out in the local elections as what has been revealed about the appalling misgovernance of the previous PSOE administration is truly shocking.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> This appears to be a quote from an article by Tony Greenham which also appeared in the Guardian 16th October 2011. Tony is Head of Finance and Business at nef unless he has moved on very recently.
> 
> Not sure he is actually promoting the death of capitalism either if that was the point of your post.
> 
> ...



He is not promoting the death of capitalism. Only the ignorant and idealistic would waste breath and ink on that. There must and will be changes to the model of capitalism Europe-wide (hopefully) but capitalism, which has been around in one form or another since the start of recorded history, is here to stay.
There are measures which can be taken by EU member states although those within the eurozone have less freedom of manoeuvre.
But you are right, banking regulation must be on a global basis (what has Dry to say about that other than to deplore the current system: nada)
There are encouraging signs that this process is underway. Changes at the IMF which is now emphasising growth policies, the inevitability of closer integration within the eurozone, the willingness of core EU states to implement a financial transaction tax -resisted by the UK for obvious but I think mistaken reasons, the threat of a world recession affecting even the emerging economies of India, China etc...
Contrary to the doom'n'gloom camp, all is not lost. There is nothing so strong as the urge for self-preservation.
We are in for tough times but unlike the recession of the '30s, we start from a higher level of human well-being for the vast majority.
One danger is the emergence of the far right which is already occurring in many EU states and which street disorder inevitably exacerbates.
This is one of my major worries.


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## SheilaTranslate (Dec 31, 2010)

*Lessons From Spain: Los Indignados & Occupy Wall Street*

It seems Miss Huff was here in Spain and has a thing or two to say about our recession:

Arianna Huffington: Lessons From Spain: "Los Indignados," Occupy Wall Street, and the Failure of the Status Quo


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

SheilaTranslate said:


> It seems Miss Huff was here in Spain and has a thing or two to say about our recession:
> 
> Arianna Huffington: Lessons From Spain: "Los Indignados," Occupy Wall Street, and the Failure of the Status Quo


We've been talking a lot about this on another thread. 
Some seem to think they have a magic bullet that will transform the climate of Spanish politics. I beg to differ although Gawd only knows something needs to be done. I have said what I think about it all in that thread, if you're interested.
Basically, my position is that to change the system you have to work within the system. The various protest movements world-wide are united in what they are against but have no real solid programme for a feasible alternative - merely a wish-list which no -one apart from the most die-hard reactionary could disagree with.
They are a sideshow to real events. When they become a nuisance they will be moved on with the usual tear gas etc. but they are threatening nobody so they'll be allowed to stay.
The title of the thread in which incidentally I've proposed some practical steps for an alternative approach is along the lines of 'How the protest movement is redefining Spanish politics, a rather far-fetched claim which is more wishful thinking than reality.
Yesterday's 'El Pais' ran a piece stating some interesting figures:
73% of those recently polled said they agree with the statement of Dry/15M that the markets and not governments control national economies. With respect, I think you'd have to have lived in a cave for the past thirty years or more not to know that. I'm amazed that 27% seem unaware of that important fact. That to me is the most pertinent statistic.
So far so bleedin' obvious.....
Then came the interesting part: of those intending to vote PP on 20/11, only 12% said that the 'movement' would influence their vote. 30% of those intending to vote PSOE said they would be influenced.
How this interest would manifest itself isn't clear. Whether the PP voters will switch to PSOE or IU isn't stated. Presumably PSOE voters might switch to IU. 
Or they might all stay at home....
But it's clear that the movements have little if any effect on real-time politics.
We've seen this before - those of you old enough will remember the massive Europe-wide protests against capitalism and war in 1968 in which I was an enthusiastic participant. In those days we British lefties referred to the market speculators as 'the gnomes of Zurich'.
Incidentally, is this the same Miss Huffington ala Arianna Stassinopolos (spelling?), the darling of the Cambridge Conservative right in the '80s????


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> We've been talking a lot about this on another thread.
> Some seem to think they have a magic bullet that will transform the climate of Spanish politics. I beg to differ although Gawd only knows something needs to be done. I have said what I think about it all in that thread, if you're interested.
> Basically, my position is that to change the system you have to work within the system. The various protest movements world-wide are united in what they are against but have no real solid programme for a feasible alternative - merely a wish-list which no -one apart from the most die-hard reactionary could disagree with.
> They are a sideshow to real events. When they become a nuisance they will be moved on with the usual tear gas etc. but they are threatening nobody so they'll be allowed to stay.
> ...


I'm going to merge the threads


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> I'm going to merge the threads


A good idea. I'd like to see some engagement with the alternatives I've proposed, even if only to rubbish them
Incidentally, I wish Beachcomber would provide input from the Right.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> A good idea. I'd like to see some engagement with the alternatives I've proposed, even if only to rubbish them
> Incidentally, I wish Beachcomber would provide input from the Right.


done 

I'm keeping out of this one though..............I have a C******** party to organise for all my students


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> done
> 
> I'm keeping out of this one though..............I have a C******** party to organise for all my students


What kind of party are you organising that is so obscene that it can't be described
And I was thinking you were a respectable woman....
Can you tell us more.......
And can I come


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> What kind of party are you organising that is so obscene that it can't be described
> And I was thinking you were a respectable woman....
> Can you tell us more.......
> And can I come


I am VERY respectable

I just can't bring myself to say that word til december


this is going on the flyer/ticket


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> I am VERY respectable
> 
> I just can't bring myself to say that word til december
> 
> ...




Ahh....all is crystal clear.
As I have ignored that particular event for over ten happy years I didn't make the connection.....
Says more about my mind than your reluctance...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Ahh....all is crystal clear.
> As I have ignored that particular event for over ten happy years I didn't make the connection.....
> Says more about my mind than your reluctance...


I'm waiting for the day when my kids let me ignore it


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

SheilaTranslate said:


> It seems Miss Huff was here in Spain and has a thing or two to say about our recession:
> 
> Arianna Huffington: Lessons From Spain: "Los Indignados," Occupy Wall Street, and the Failure of the Status Quo


_"The third thing that struck me about the protests -- both in Spain and here (the US) -- is that they are about more than political and economic goals. They are bigger than that. They are about changing civil society -- about creating a new relationship not just between the people and their government, but among the people themselves. There's the growing sense that the problems we're facing can't be solved just by fixing our political institutions. We need to transform our relationships to our communities".

I like that observation. It is something I have sensed from local meetings. IMHO I think that there are great benefits from the interactions that are taking place in Spain.

Sadly time is against us. I see in El Mundo that in a school in Andalusia kids are sitting on the floor as chairs cost! Eat your heart out Mr Dickens.

ps Mary I'm out of this one. I guess looking back we agree largely on what is wrong and what might be better but as for method we are a universe apart although the end game I'm looking for I think you do not see. But if we can't agree the value of the DRY policy statement maybe we are starting from totally different places 

And an aside did you see the referendum debate in Westminster? I was waiting for something to get started on a job and saw most of it. Found it quite interesting. There are some good eggs in the House _


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> There are some good eggs in the House


But there are still too many rotten ones!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> But there are still too many rotten ones!


Baldilocks I'll snatch what is available. I do not expect miracles 

ps do you not do shortcrust? I thought you were the oracle of all things foodie?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> _"The third thing that struck me about the protests -- both in Spain and here (the US) -- is that they are about more than political and economic goals. They are bigger than that. They are about changing civil society -- about creating a new relationship not just between the people and their government, but among the people themselves. There's the growing sense that the problems we're facing can't be solved just by fixing our political institutions. We need to transform our relationships to our communities".
> 
> I like that observation. It is something I have sensed from local meetings. IMHO I think that there are great benefits from the interactions that are taking place in Spain.
> 
> ...


_

Yes...I'm beginning to rethink my attitude to UK membership of the EU. Need to read a lot and debate with people like your good self. I was 100% in favour but not so sure now. I don't think the UK will ever be able to adopt the European statist mindset aka the social market economy about which as you know I am very enthusiastic.
So it might be better for the UK to plough its Anglo-Saxon furrow. 
Will Hutton has written two good books: 'The State we're In' and 'The World We're In' in which he explores and discusses our philosophical and historical differences with our continental neighbours. You can probably buy them for 1p on Amazon.
I think e gree entirely as to what is wrong, Nigel. Our disagreement lies in how to get to where we would like to be. 
But one small point: what you posted is not DRy's 'Policy Statement'. Policies are sets of detailed plans for achieving a stated goal...as in 'a policy for sustainable growth' which should set out precisely and clearlyand in detail the measures to be taken.
In politics, policies are translated into legislation via Acts of Parliament.
During my time on TUC Committees I was able to take part in policy formulation by participating in discussions on Green Papers with DTI officials.
What you posted is a statement of general aims, of a philosophy of society and I largely agree with it.
But it is no way a policy statement as it lacks those measures and that's why I think the movement is ineffectual._


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> ps do you not do shortcrust? I thought you were the oracle of all things foodie?


Of course I do shortcrust, normal shortcrust! The suegra does something *she *calls shortcrust which involves vinegar and an egg but then she is a Texan so I'll leave you to work that one out.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Of course I do shortcrust, normal shortcrust! The suegra does something *she *calls shortcrust which involves vinegar and an egg but then she is a Texan so I'll leave you to work that one out.



That sounds interesting. Tell us more...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> And the point of that comment is???? Yes, it does fit in nicely with my views. Just as the pieces you quote fit in with yours.He is a serious commentator and a good judge of events. Another comment (Saturday's Guardian) from one of these naive people: 'The problem is money. We must get rid of money'.
> Oh, I see....The next time I need a pack of knickers from M&S I'll go and offer the cashier a couple of oranges from the garden.
> Simon Jenkin's piece was on Friday, I believe. Can't post a link but I didn't make it up
> You have great faith in these people. I don't. To me it's a futile and irrelevant distraction from the real structural problems, but harmelss until the rent-a-mob return from Dale Farm and start inciting violence which of course turns public opinion against the lot of them..
> ...


Sorry for the late reply - have been ill and busy at the same time.
Whilst I like throwing around ideas on the forum and making myself think about things that are happening, I just don't have enough time (or perhaps it's the inclination?) to dedicate to this as much time as it maybe deserves.
Also, whilst I appreciate people's frustrations and doubts about 15M, DRY (I'm still not sure where one ends and the other begins) The Wall Street protesters etc I feel that the same things are being said ad nauseum, with the same preconceptions and limitations, and if I'm only going to post to repeat myself, well...
As usual there are some things that mrypg and others have written that I agree with and others that I don't.
One thing that I really have to make clear once again is who is involved in this kind of movement


> I have no time for gesture politics, 'glorious defeats' or other distractions which are frankly irrelevant and downright dangerous in that the majority of people watching these sometimes violent protestors on tv more often than not deplore the disorder and welcome a more restrictive approach to civil liberties.
> The usual comment on these people is not 'Oh how wonderful, they are fighting for our children's futures'.
> Sadly, the usual comment runs along the lines of 'I bet they are all on social security benefits and I'm working to keep them'..
> That I'm afraid is the reality.


A comment like this is really not acceptable, not true and is not the reality. I went to a talk the other day about alternative banking organised by a local 15M group. There were teachers, bankers, a biologist, an economist, a sound technician, a farmer... There was also a young guy with dreadlocks - unemployed or an architect?? who knows and who cares, the same as there was a south american guy dressed in a tracksuit. Totally irrelevant. But I can assure that there is a wide spread of society involved including a large group of people who have never voiced an opinion about local or national government before.
People have talked about the need to come up with answers, to provide alternatives, which is of course true. Once again I'd like to say, that in Spain these groups started to really come together a mere 5 months ago. In just 5 months they have developed, not into a national political party, but into local work groups with each one serving its own community. In the future this may evolve into smth national, but personally I doubt it. And 15M has NEVER said that was what they were aiming for. 
So what were they are they aiming for? As you know, they are asking for changes in the electoral system, questioning the financing of political parties and the transparency. They are also asking for changes in taxes and talk about the Tobin tax, they ask for more direct representation etc etc. 
As they themselves have said "we are not apolitical, but not affiliated to any party" At the beginning the basic aim was to show discontent, indignation and even anger at being a highly developed society with huge problems to provide its people with basic rights including work and housing. Their main achievment IMO so far has been to open ideas and debates, to put people in contact with each other, to set off thinking.
If any changes are to come about as mrypg9 says, they need to come through political paths, but politics as we know it may not be able to change or ready to change. There are no quick fixes and I think the people of 15M etc know that. It's the detractors that are asking for immediate change and when they don't see it happening tend to think this is a weak, idealistic group who will easily lose their way like so many before them.
Somewhere, someone says that I have great faith in these people. I haven't actually said that, and with what's around the corner I dread to think what our future will be, or at least mine, but I certainly admire this movement a lot more than I admire the more established political panorama. I've certainly learnt a lot in the last few months and find this way of thinking more interesting than other groups. That's all I can say really - no answers, no ideas, just enjoying what's going on.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*Instead, the German – and broader northern European – approach emphasises vocational training and apprenticeships, particularly in engineering, manufacturing and the sciences. It invests in research and development, and in strong education. With all of the above the UK government would agree – even if its policies have for decades not followed the theory.

Where the Brits and the Germans spectacularly part company is over employment. "Works councils" have been the staple of German industry, with unions represented by statute. Both sides actively work towards consensus, and strikes and other disputes take place on the rare occasion where agreement is not reached. The first response to the banking crisis of 2008 was for the two sides to come together and work out a deal that included cuts in working hours, and cuts in pay – across the board. As a result unemployment rose only fractionally.

For Anglo-Saxon free-market diehards, these truths are difficult to take. *


This is an excerpt from an interesting piece in today's Guardian....
Sums up neatly the path I'd like to see the Spanish and UK economies taking..
These are POLICIES.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry for the late reply - have been ill and busy at the same time.
> Whilst I like throwing around ideas on the forum and making myself think about things that are happening, I just don't have enough time (or perhaps it's the inclination?) to dedicate to this as much time as it maybe deserves.
> Also, whilst I appreciate people's frustrations and doubts about 15M, DRY (I'm still not sure where one ends and the other begins) The Wall Street protesters etc I feel that the same things are being said ad nauseum, with the same preconceptions and limitations, and if I'm only going to post to repeat myself, well...
> As usual there are some things that mrypg and others have written that I agree with and others that I don't.
> ...




You have misunderstood me!!! That's most certainly not my view.....I am stating what many uninformed people, whipped up by the right-wing media, are thinking or will be encouraged to think.
I think that immediate change is not only desirable, it's urgent. The crisis in the Eurozone is very dangerous for many reasons, one of which has largely been ignored and that is the growth of far-right nationalism. 
The current attempts to solve the crisis would be laughable were it not for the IMMEDIATE impact this could have on our lives. There are as I see it three deep structural faults in the Eurozone which no-one is addressing: the incompatability of the member states, the huge Eurozone debt and the lack of policies for growth.
This plus a total lack of leadership. Berlusconi makes disparaging comments about Merkel's lack of sexual allure, Sarkozy criticises her cheese consumption, Cameron and Sarkozy bicker....while the cost of any eventual rescue package escalates daily.
There are two types of politics which are mutually dependent and should inform each other: the politics of day-to-day management of 'events' and the politics of meaning, i.e. underlying values and philosophies. 15M etc. is firmly placed in the latter group and yes, is a valuable part of it. But it is saying nothing new - such vaguely anti-capitalist communitarian philosophies have been around since the thirteenth century...John Ball and the dream of Piers Plowman!
But we have evolved into a complex high-tech deeply interconnected global society in the centuries since then. Simple solutions can't bring about change.
After November 20th there will be a new, presumably right-wing PP Government which will have the power to make things even worse.
As Nigel said, there are issues that need dealing with NOW. He mentions children who can't go to school because of lack of furniture....same is happening here. Millions of unemployed, no policies for growth....these are pressing urgent problems that can and must be solved by urgent political action.
Hungry jobless people will not be given jobs and the means to feed their families by wellmeaning people discussing issues that have been the staple of student debate over wine and spliffs for decades...I was there as a student in the sixties and I bet you were too....albeit years later
I do not feel any optimism. Just despair at the social and economic illiteracy of those chosen to be our 'leaders'.

P.S. Hope you are feeling better. I've had a bad cold and have reduced hearing in my left ear which I'm hoping is down to the cold and not the dreaded approach of OLD AGE


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> You have misunderstood me!!! That's most certainly not my view.....I am stating what many uninformed people, whipped up by the right-wing media, are thinking or will be encouraged to think.
> I think that immediate change is not only desirable, it's urgent. The crisis in the Eurozone is very dangerous for many reasons, one of which has largely been ignored and that is the growth of far-right nationalism.
> The current attempts to solve the crisis would be laughable were it not for the IMMEDIATE impact this could have on our lives. There are as I see it three deep structural faults in the Eurozone which no-one is addressing: the incompatability of the member states, the huge Eurozone debt and the lack of policies for growth.
> This plus a total lack of leadership. Berlusconi makes disparaging comments about Merkel's lack of sexual allure, Sarkozy criticises her cheese consumption, Cameron and Sarkozy bicker....while the cost of any eventual rescue package escalates daily.
> ...


Sorry about that.
I did read it a few times as I was surprised that you would think that. Problems of communicating on the net...

Yes, we do need solutions right now, but what we've got is elections and ??? What ever the PP wants to push through and I dread to think quite honestly what they are going to do to us, and I mean TO us. 

I wonder what will happen in the elections. Wouldn't it be wonderful if 90% exercised their right like they did in Tunisia?

My overall feeling is not optimistic either, especially as I have a teacher husband, and a 17 year old, extremely hard working but not particulary good at thinking outside of the box, daughter, who will be trying to carve out her future in this fukced up world that we've made.

I'm OK, thanks for asking. Had a tummy upset, which with the sudden onset of autumn, has not done my general humour any good.

PS Have you ever had your ears syringed (sp??) Does wonders for my hearing!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry about that.
> I did read it a few times as I was surprised that you would think that. Problems of communicating on the net...
> 
> Yes, we do need solutions right now, but what we've got is elections and ??? What ever the PP wants to push through and I dread to think quite honestly what they are going to do to us, and I mean TO us.
> ...


No...do you recommend it? Will they do it at our local ambulatorio?
It's affecting my balance too.
Take a look at the Daily Heil today....that's what I mean by whipping up hatred.
I am very angry and frustrated...OK, not as much as you as my son is grown-up(in some respects but then I always say 'Boys will be boys, girls will be women) and doing reasonably well although he has to compete for contracts. Plus I don't need, have or want to work. I've at last done my bit for the education of the young, probably an empty endeavour....
After decades in politics I feel totally disenfranchised. There is no UK party I could vote for and on a personal level here in Spain I feel gutted at the revelations of the incompetence of our former PSOE Alcalde. To think I campaigned for him, wrote articles and radio cunas in English for him...My only consolation is that he didn't fill his own pockets. If I had a vote here I'd still vote PSOE but only to prevent something worse.
As I want to do something useful and positive I'm embarking on a project of reading or rereading all the classics of world literature before I shuffle my mortal coils. So far I've 'got through' the novels of Orwell, some Henry James, George Elliot (I'd take 'Middlemarch' on a desert island), have read volume one of Proust (heavy going, why is he so revered??) and am now on 'War and Peace' for the fourth or fifth time. Just love that book - a soap opera with added philosophy.
Russian novels -and Thomas Hardy - seem to suit my gloomy fatalistic nature....


My Spanish friend is coming for an English lesson this evening. We usually end up moaning in Spanish about the state of things. I really need to get a structured programme for her. Her knowledge of English is at beginner level. I don't have any course books or other material here, junked it all when I left Prague. Can you recommend any websites I could get stuff from?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> My Spanish friend is coming for an English lesson this evening. We usually end up moaning in Spanish about the state of things. I really need to get a structured programme for her. Her knowledge of English is at beginner level. I don't have any course books or other material here, junked it all when I left Prague. Can you recommend any websites I could get stuff from?


Don't, for goodness sake, use any of the OUP stuff that they are using in the schools around here - it is absolute rubbish.

On the subject of language have you seen the recent five part series "Fry's Planet Word" by our dear friend Stephen. We have, so far only watched Part 1 and it seems to be very good and well worth downloading the torrent. We also have been having difficulty in finding suitable website material that is not US orientated.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No...do you recommend it? Will they do it at our local ambulatorio?
> It's affecting my balance too.
> Take a look at the Daily Heil today....that's what I mean by whipping up hatred.
> I am very angry and frustrated...OK, not as much as you as my son is grown-up(in some respects but then I always say 'Boys will be boys, girls will be women) and doing reasonably well although he has to compete for contracts. Plus I don't need, have or want to work. I've at last done my bit for the education of the young, probably an empty endeavour....
> ...


Mary, a quick answer as I really should be doing other stuff  Would send a PM, but I'm up to 99% full and don't have time to look through them
You need to go to the doctor to sort out your ear. I've never had an ear infection, but I've heard that they are very painful, so get it checked before it gets worse. If you need to be syringed, the nurse at the health centre will do it, no problem.
TEFL stuff - try English File. You have beginner and elementary.
New English File
Ditto with Headway
Headway
Both have some great practice exercises on them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Mary, a quick answer as I really should be doing other stuff  Would send a PM, but I'm up to 99% full and don't have time to look through them
> You need to go to the doctor to sort out your ear. I've never had an ear infection, but I've heard that they are very painful, so get it checked before it gets worse. If you need to be syringed, the nurse at the health centre will do it, no problem.
> TEFL stuff - try English File. You have beginner and elementary.
> New English File
> ...



Thanks....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

There is currently going around, an ear infection that tends to strike those who have been suffering from the recent cold (as in acute viral infection not temperature) which is extremely painful and needs a course of strong oral antibiotics to shift it (n.b. topical, i.e. ear drop type, antibiotics are no good on it.) See the Doctor - Zinnat (Cefuroxima [axetilo]) 500mg twice a day, seems to work.


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## thelastspud (Oct 24, 2011)

*15M policies*

Hi everyone this is my first post but I've been lurking here for a little while now but this conversation got me interested enough to register and get involved. 

I live in Malaga and my house mates were there on the first day camping out in the plaza de la constitution so I've been to lots of the meetings and protests but they still haven't converted me. Some of their ideas are obviously really easy to agree with i.e. everybody should have a job and a house but I'm not sure and I don't think they are either about how to go from here to there. 

As for more expansive policies they have this list



> Propuestas
> 
> Estas son algunas de las medidas que, en cuanto ciudadanos, consideramos esenciales para la regeneración de nuestro sistema político y económico. ¡Opina sobre las mismas y propón las tuyas en el foro!
> 
> ...



Obviously that's in Spanish I think most of you read enough to understand them if not you can google translate or I can clear them up for you.

I'm a big believer in the "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys theory" so number 1 point two would be out for me. They already took a 15% cut this year.
Brad.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thelastspud said:


> Hi everyone this is my first post but I've been lurking here for a little while now but this conversation got me interested enough to register and get involved.
> 
> I live in Malaga and my house mates were there on the first day camping out in the plaza de la constitution so I've been to lots of the meetings and protests but they still haven't converted me. *Some of their ideas are obviously really easy to agree with i.e. everybody should have a job and a house but I'm not sure and I don't think they are either about how to go from here to there. *As for more expansive policies they have this list
> 
> ...



That's my position. Some good ideas but how to put into practice.. In order to get these ideas put into practice you need a vehicle, a party. Yet they are not in favour of 'parties'.
And no real suggestion as to how to escape the grip of the markets...
Also agree about Point 2/1.
These people are no threat to the status quo.That's why the powers-that-be are allowing them tom get on with their debates and discussions. The real threat comes from the far right which is growing in strength all over Europe and is represented not only in Parliaments across Europe but actually is in government in a few.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> There is currently going around, an ear infection that tends to strike those who have been suffering from the recent cold (as in acute viral infection not temperature) which is extremely painful and needs a course of strong oral antibiotics to shift it (n.b. topical, i.e. ear drop type, antibiotics are no good on it.) See the Doctor - Zinnat (Cefuroxima [axetilo]) 500mg twice a day, seems to work.


Thanks for that Baldy.....you have given me hope
My mum was very deaf in her old age and refused to wear her hearing aid which was very frustrating for us. But she was a lot older than I when it struck her.
Only thing is, I don't have a severe pain, just mild discomfort and a 'blocked-up' sensation.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for that Baldy.....you have given me hope
> My mum was very deaf in her old age and refused to wear her hearing aid which was very frustrating for us. But she was a lot older than I when it struck her.
> Only thing is, I don't have a severe pain, just mild discomfort and a 'blocked-up' sensation.


That's how SWMBO's started. Fortunately, she seems to be now over the worst although the first Dr she saw gave her ear-drops which did no good but she has now been on a course of oral antibiotics which seem to have done the trick - fingers Xed!

As for the Prospectus I agree with point 2/2 but I can't see how they might begin to implement much if any of it given the intractability of the existing politico-governmental machinery.


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## thelastspud (Oct 24, 2011)

I get ear aches every now and then but when I was younger I had at least 4 a year. I've been told that it if you try to keep your nose unblocked during a cold or flu there is less chance of an earache because any fluid build up in your ears can drain out through your nose. 


:focus: I would love to see 6 . 4 
* Control real y efectivo del fraude fiscal y de la fuga de capitales a paraísos fiscales.

I'm not convinced that this is a huge cause of the problems, I think that maybe its just a campaign against Botin and everybody loves blaming the rich. 

And a sign that 15M maybe haven't thought everything through 
* Contratación de personal sanitario hasta acabar con las listas de espera.
Because there's heaps of spare cash right now to build hospitals and hire doctors/nurses/staff.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thelastspud said:


> I get ear aches every now and then but when I was younger I had at least 4 a year. I've been told that it if you try to keep your nose unblocked during a cold or flu there is less chance of an earache because any fluid build up in your ears can drain out through your nose.
> 
> 
> :focus: I would love to see 6 . 4
> ...


Don't worry too much about a slight side-step off topic..I'm always doing it, alas. Our mods are very sensible and only intervene when we're way OTT.
I would have thought it would be simple to pass an effective law for 6.4.
I often wonder how we should define the 'rich' these days. It's like poverty, it's relative.
I'm rich compared to many people but poor as a churchmouse compared to others.
Most big companies, in fact nearly all the mega ones, ceased being family-owned decades ago -if they ever were - and are owned by shareholders which could include your savings and my savings and pension fund.
If we confiscated all the personal wealth of the 'rich' in Spain and shared it out we would probably get around 500 euros each....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thelastspud said:


> I'm a big believer in the "if you pay peanuts you get monkeys theory" so number 1 point two would be out for me. They already took a 15% cut this year.
> Brad.


Well, Spanish politics should have knocked that theory on the head for you. We've been paying elephantine proportions - and we still got monkeys!!
The whole pay structure, and the back handers need to be looked at, restructured and when in place _*vigilated*_ correctly. I am absolutely against high salaries for politicians. Good salaries, but without being exceptional and with out all the deals they cut themselves in perks and pensions. But then again I find footballers salaries, along with actors and singers bordering on the obscene too.

Nice to have another person's opinion BTW


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The whole pay structure, and the back handers need to be looked at, restructured and when in place _*vigilated*_ correctly.


So you advocate the restructuring and correct vigilation of backhanders too. Hmmm interesting! Are we talking about tennis or financial inducements? If the latter, can we be sure that the vigilators will be getting the correct backhanders and if so who will be vigilating them?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> So you advocate the restructuring and correct vigilation of backhanders too. Hmmm interesting! Are we talking about tennis or financial inducements? If the latter, can we be sure that the vigilators will be getting the correct backhanders and if so who will be vigilating them?


Hmmm - not very well written, is it?

But you can get my drift

probably.


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## thelastspud (Oct 24, 2011)

Zapatero recently dropped down to 78 000 euro. I think he probably does more than 40 hours a week. I don't really have a problem with that salary. 

A doctor earns between 45 to 55 a year for comparison. The prime minister of Australia earns 265 195 Euros and Australia has half the population of Spain bit better off right now though. 


Over to a different tack, in the last election in Oz there was a pretty close split between the two parties and we ended up with a hung parliament(same thing happened in England now that I think about it) anyway in Australia the greens party made up a government with labour and because of their stronger green presence in the parliament labour is doing different things such as a carbon tax. 

So I've told this story to a few 15M supporters but even though they have heard stories of a small party having a big effect they aren't really interested in forming one and having a go.

Who knows maybe it would have just split the left factions in to 3 or maybe it would have attracted a heap of people who didn't vote last election because they felt no one represented them.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thelastspud said:


> Zapatero recently dropped down to 78 000 euro. I think he probably does more than 40 hours a week. I don't really have a problem with that salary.
> 
> A doctor earns between 45 to 55 a year for comparison. The prime minister of Australia earns 265 195 Euros and Australia has half the population of Spain bit better off right now though.
> 
> ...


I did promise myself I wouldn't go on about this any more, but ...
The movement is called 15 M for a reason, that reason being that everything came to a head and started on the 15th of May, 2011. That's barely 5 months ago. Do you think a strong political party could be organised in 5 months? Would any significant number of people vote for a party so recently formed? Would it be reasonable to ask people to vote for a party formed so quickly? What worth would a party formed from the 15M movement have?
The ideas that 15M have are focused on making politics "better", not chucking together a few policies to make it in time for an election date. 
There is a party which has some links to these movements called Equo, but they started before the 15M movement started and were involved in other groups before that.
¿Quiénes somos? « Equo Va
There are probably more, but I haven't heard of them.

The other point is, and it is a point that many people here have made...Many people involved in these groups don't have any answers. They are just voicing their discontent with the way things have gone. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not elected to work in the government. I don't necessarily have the skills to decide how a problem should be solved. Nor do have the information needed to make decisions. I may or may not have ideas, but I'd like to know more, I'd like to be able to have the info that I need, and I'd like to be consulted about how my money is going to be used.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I did promise myself I wouldn't go on about this any more, but ...
> The movement is called 15 M for a reason, that reason being that everything came to a head and started on the 15th of May, 2011. That's barely 5 months ago. Do you think a strong political party could be organised in 5 months? Would any significant number of people vote for a party so recently formed? Would it be reasonable to ask people to vote for a party formed so quickly? What worth would a party formed from the 15M movement have?
> The ideas that 15M have are focused on making politics "better", not chucking together a few policies to make it in time for an election date.
> There is a party which has some links to these movements called Equo, but they started before the 15M movement started and were involved in other groups before that.
> ...


I mean, and that's it. I don't really want to become a politician, but I do want more than I have now


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## thelastspud (Oct 24, 2011)

Well no one will know now how many people would have voted for them they have managed to put up some big numbers at protest rallies though. 

there where 286,182 blank ballots last election
and 9 million people didn't vote. 

who knows what could have happened. I don't know how many of those 9 million didn't care but I'm sure some of them didn't vote because they felt unrepresented.

I don't want to be a politician either I think I'd quite quickly turn bad.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thelastspud said:


> Well no one will know now how many people would have voted for them they have managed to put up some big numbers at protest rallies though.
> 
> there where 286,182 blank ballots last election
> and 9 million people didn't vote.
> ...


Yes, which I happen to think is pretty impressive considering the who, what, how long...

The 286,182 were blank (votos en blanco), were they, not spoiled votes (votos nulos)? I remember there was a whole campaign about it in the municipal elections.

I think it's absolutely essential to vote, even more so if you don't feel that there's a candidate that represents your views. We think that societies where the population don't have the vote are "uncivilised" and we fight for democracy. Then, when we have it, we waste it!

In Spain, if you don't agree with any of the candidates it seems you should vote by way of a spoiled vote, otherwise if it's a blank vote, it will be counted in some way.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think it's absolutely essential to vote, even more so if you don't feel that there's a candidate that represents your views. We think that societies where the population don't have the vote are "uncivilised" and we fight for democracy. Then, when we have it, we waste it!


BUT when it comes to National elections WE don't have a vote. If we did, it might make a difference to the outcome, or not!

I voted in the locals but still lost out to the reigning party which, because of local business interests has a lot of clout even if their leader wouldn't be welcomed at a muslim or jewish dinner (work it out!).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> BUT when it comes to National elections WE don't have a vote. If we did, it might make a difference to the outcome, or not!
> 
> I voted in the locals but still lost out to the reigning party which, because of local business interests has a lot of clout even if their leader wouldn't be welcomed at a muslim or jewish dinner (work it out!).


Sorry, too mixed up.
Some of my post is refering to we = peoples of the world (!!) and some is talking about the Spanish general elections which I of course know that we = not Spanish can't vote in


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry, too mixed up.


It was changing your avatar that did it! Mine is just SWMBO and myself!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> It was changing your avatar that did it! Mine is just SWMBO and myself!


And very nice it is too - at least you look happy!

A comment from Yossa prompted the changing of my avatar. Can't remember which thread, but totally off topic, as is this!

Anyway, I thought it was Halloweenish, so I'll leave it up 'till then


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Politicians come in many shapes and sizes. I was a politician but a biggish fish in a very small pond. 
Anyone who is elected is a politician. You can't run a country without politicians.
In some countries a significant number of politicians is corrupt. Humans are weak, not just political humans, and some will take advantage where they can. 
Politicians have alonmg with bankers speculators etc. contributed to this mess and politicians -who else? - will get us out of it sooner or later.
An absence of politics leads to totalitarianism. Stalin and Hitler abolished politics. 
What worries me as I've said is the resurgence of the far right. Denigrating politicians can be dangerous. Fascists and other enemies of democracy love the 'strong man' -always a man -who can lead the country into a brighter future.
The 15M people are unelected politicians, in the true sense of the word.
I must say that today Europe's problems are the least of my worries compared to mine: washing machine not working, electrical problems, LandRover needs fixing....and an hour ago the whole water supply to the house packed up.
I'm waiting for the plumber.


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## thelastspud (Oct 24, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, which I happen to think is pretty impressive considering the who, what, how long...
> 
> The 286,182 were blank (votos en blanco), were they, not spoiled votes (votos nulos)? I remember there was a whole campaign about it in the municipal elections.
> 
> ...


I found this last night its a screen shot from a government website about elections 
you can find it here Ministerio del Interior - GOBIERNO DE ESPAÑA 
you can see there were 155 00 thousand nulos and 286 000 blancos. 

There's actually a party called Ciudadanos en Blanco that say if they actually win a seat they will leave it empty in parliament to prove something or the other.

For interests sake its actually compulsory to vote in Australia in federal and state elections you get a fine if you don't its something like 50 euros.


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