# Crime situation in Italy



## marenostrum

Hi

I have not been back to italy in a while. I have been reading on several italian newspapers online about the increased crime rates there and it would appear that a lot of romanian gangsters are causing a lot of problems especially for people living in isolated villas in remote countryside. I guess this is because, unlike in "benefity uk" there is no social security available for foreigners there hence a lot of immigrants unfortunately turn to crime and the police are unwlling to act due to left wing judges.

Is the situation bad or is a lot if it media scaremongering?

thanks


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## Sonjait

Hi, 

well i dont know about other areas but we live in Tuscany and i dont think that the crime here is bad at all. Not in the cities or in the countryside. Of course, some people are comlaining about all the forgeiners but i believe its more about that the italians feel that they steal their jobs...specially buiders etc... 

I just found somewhere on the Internet a new statistic where Life is best in ITaly and the top five where: Bolzano, Siena, Trento, Rimini and Trieste...

What a luck we are in Siena


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## NickZ

Media tends to bury many of the serious cases. It's to the point now that the stuff is basically daily. Most people have gotten numb to the situation.


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## dr_italia

NickZ said:


> Media tends to bury many of the serious cases. It's to the point now that the stuff is basically daily. Most people have gotten numb to the situation.


Could you elaborate more? Which city/region are you talking about? What do you know of that is not reported-- robberies, rapes, theft...? What are you doing to avoid being victimized?


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## NickZ

The national media will only cover the more extreme cases. Unless the victim is famous a simple robbery isn't going to end up on the national news. A few weeks back a senator had his villa broken into. He was beaten and robbed. This got plenty of coverage. But I have little doubt if the victim had been some one else it would have had little if any coverage. On a busy news days it could easily have been dropped from the news.

Local papers/TV will tend to cover a fair bit more but even then a simple break in of an empty apartment isn't going to make the news. 

I'm a block from the police station in an area with a fair bit of traffic. Not to mention many hunters -) Not the sort of area most of these crimes are happening.

At the low end it's break ins of city apartments. At the other end country homes. These are the ones that lately have been fairly violent.


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## Dillinger

By the way ... in wonderful ol Blighty with its benefits for foreigners ... gangs of WHITE English thieves work their way around English country homes every day. Only the violent ones get in the press.

I would imagine a fair few of the Romanians are actually more ROME anians than foreign.

Still ... not good news whoever the perp is.


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## italy

i do not believe Italy isn't exclusive in how it reports crime.. and it mainly depends on as has been said the media worth of those the crime is against or the violence involved.. more to the point if its a week of political bashing over crime ... in general they like to report crimes with talk of foreign accents in the north.. its basically a Lega thing.. Romanians and many eastern European nationalities are guilty of crimes here.. the percentage in prisons reflect this.. but it is also true that many leave their country to come here because Italy is renowned outside for its lack of prosecutions and low levels of sentencing.. so it proves to be a lure.. that said most crime is either initiated at least or carried out by Italians against Italians.. the main focus of concern now a days seems to be the justified fear of the female population about the explosion of violence against them in terms of the death rate and these crimes are in general commited by people they know well and apart from gang rapes amongst juveniles are in the main Italian men.. there is also various outbreaks of specific violence in many of the main cities generally associated with criminal activity and warring factions.. always highlighted by the lack of police on the street and the small number of camera surveillance facilities allowed in Italy due to privacy laws.. all in all although i do not live in Milan or Rome i would describe rural living here in general very stress and crime free.. although as one person mentioned hunters do seem to have a law to themselves ..


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## sheilamarsco

i live in a rural area and for the past 6 years have never heard of crimes being committed around here however in the past month 4 burglaries happened within a week in our small community during the day when someone was out shopping and even when a couple were having lunch downstairs they broke into the house and raided upstairs. most thought it would be foreigners/strangers but in fact it was a gang of four youngsters who lived locally.


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## pudd 2

sheilamarsco said:


> i live in a rural area and for the past 6 years have never heard of crimes being committed around here however in the past month 4 burglaries happened within a week in our small community during the day when someone was out shopping and even when a couple were having lunch downstairs they broke into the house and raided upstairs. most thought it would be foreigners/strangers but in fact it was a gang of four youngsters who lived locally.


they are so quik to plaim the romo or albanese we have romanian neigbers and you could not wish for better there are good and bad in all nats


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## marenostrum

The thing that struck me is the violence reported during these robberies / burglaries.
It may be the that the number of these crimes isn't any higher than say ten years ago but there seems to be a lot of mindless violence perpetrated against home owners etc etc.
I don't want this topic to descend into a debate of whether EEs are reponsible or not, I have my own idea on this and you cannot dispute stats and its not about lega nord, but my questions was aimed at expats who live in Italy and who are probably more "savvy" in terms of news reporting than the average italian who has never left Italy. Would you say for example that rural Italy is more dangerous than say Rural yorkshire or Minnesota in the US? If I were to return I would want to live somewhere like Sardinia so would you say this would be safer than say, Skipton in Yorskshire or Ardrossan in Scotland?
I don't care about the tax / work situation but the crime headlines do worry me.


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## NickZ

It depends on what sort of crime you're worried about.

Almost all this crime is aimed at easy victims. Everything from the low end stuff. Street intimidation,muggings,etc to the more extreme stuff. 

So you see little old ladies getting knocked over. Or being "asked" for money.

You see empty apartments robbed during the day.

You see isolated homes being assaulted at night.

In all cases the crimes are against people that aren't expected to really react.

On top of this many aren't exactly pros. Twenty plus years ago the gangs tended to be people with a certain criminal background. They weren't really nice guys but they had a certain experience. Many of new criminals are almost more afraid then the victims. You put drug use on top of that and the end result is quite a bit of violence.

In some areas you'll get quite a bit of this. In others with less easy victims you get none.


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## Giacomina

*Hi*



marenostrum said:


> Hi
> 
> I have not been back to italy in a while. I have been reading on several italian newspapers online about the increased crime rates there and it would appear that a lot of romanian gangsters are causing a lot of problems especially for people living in isolated villas in remote countryside. I guess this is because, unlike in "benefity uk" there is no social security available for foreigners there hence a lot of immigrants unfortunately turn to crime and the police are unwlling to act due to left wing judges.
> 
> Is the situation bad or is a lot if it media scaremongering?
> 
> thanks


I don't think crime in Italy is caused by Romanians. There are only Germans, Australians and Dutch in my town and I have seen syringes on the streets here, I'm fairly sure they belong to the Italians.

In Rome, where i lived for a few years, any young man with a moterino can grab your purse, which happened to me there. They could be Italians. The theives on the buses were usually Spanish speakers. Once a guy was grabbing my necklace in a crowd of Spanish speaking young people, who appeared to be working together, they were clearly not Romanian.

The Romanians I know personally are hard working nice people who have made their way here with difficulty and are legal immigrants. i have met others who are beggars, but they speak Italian better than I do. I doubt they need to steal they are good at working for their money.:juggle:


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## Dillinger

NickZ said:


> It depends on what sort of crime you're worried about.
> 
> Almost all this crime is aimed at easy victims. Everything from the low end stuff. Street intimidation,muggings,etc to the more extreme stuff.
> 
> So you see little old ladies getting knocked over. Or being "asked" for money.
> 
> You see empty apartments robbed during the day.
> 
> You see isolated homes being assaulted at night.
> 
> In all cases the crimes are against people that aren't expected to really react.
> 
> On top of this many aren't exactly pros. Twenty plus years ago the gangs tended to be people with a certain criminal background. They weren't really nice guys but they had a certain experience. Many of new criminals are almost more afraid then the victims. You put drug use on top of that and the end result is quite a bit of violence.
> 
> In some areas you'll get quite a bit of this. In others with less easy victims you get none.


This is true of course. 

Get a BIG dog and 99% of thieves will be put off. 

Safe living to all on EPF.


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## NickZ

Dillinger said:


> This is true of course.
> 
> Get a BIG dog and 99% of thieves will be put off.
> 
> Safe living to all on EPF.


We're talking about people that beat little old ladies to death for a couple of Euros. They won't think twice about killing a dog no matter if he's the size of a pony or a mouse.


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## sheilamarsco

ardrossan??????? whatever makes you think there is a crime problem there!!! there are good and bad everywhere using a bit of common sense will hopefully ensure you don't experience any problems wherever you move to. best to disregard the negative press it's only there to sell newspapers


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## Ligman

I don't live in Sardinia but in Veneto on the Adriatic, I read the local papers and the local news on the net. Someone stole a tractor and tried to ramraid the local TNT courier office and failed, some boys stole a mobile phone from some younger kids in the street (sounds familiar),, except they were caught and sent straight to prison (doesn't sound familiar), a couple of break-ins at remote houses ... but nothing to get concerned about. I feel alot safer walking the streets here at night and being at street events in the evenings. I probably would avoid them at home in order not to get stabbed by a drunken yob ... never seen them here. I think the police aren't quite so PC as at home when they encounter trouble


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## marenostrum

Ligman said:


> I think the police aren't quite so PC as at home when they encounter trouble


Give it time and it will be.
I can already read cases where the police have been accused of generalized racism due to a one of two episodes where they didn't behave.
It'll happen the same thing that happened to the UK, the PC brigade will kill
off any chance of fair justice. The only thing that we can hope for is that foreigners won't be killing off our welfare system like in the UK because we haven't got one really, at least in terms of council houses or unemployment benefit etc etc.
I see Cameron is flapping about bulgarians and romanians getting to the uk from 2014......


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## Giacomina

In fact, big dogs do help here in Italy. No Italian is going to take a chance on being maimed just to steal a lap top or a jewlery box! 

It looks like all of the more southern mediterranean countries are susceptible to a fascist slant when bearing austerity measures. Greeks are voting for fascists reportedly more often as employment declines and social benefits, including old age pensions shrink.

Immigrants may become the easiest ones to scapegoat. That seems to be the trend.

Its not nice, I am unsure of how dangerous it might become. 

Not a nice safe place to retire I dont think.

Sorry, I'm off topic a bit.


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## marenostrum

Giacomina said:


> In fact, big dogs do help here in Italy. No Italian is going to take a chance on being maimed just to steal a lap top or a jewlery box!
> 
> It looks like all of the more southern mediterranean countries are susceptible to a fascist slant when bearing austerity measures. Greeks are voting for fascists reportedly more often as employment declines and social benefits, including old age pensions shrink.
> 
> Immigrants may become the easiest ones to scapegoat. That seems to be the trend.
> 
> Its not nice, I am unsure of how dangerous it might become.
> 
> Not a nice safe place to retire I dont think.
> 
> Sorry, I'm off topic a bit.


You tell me, should a country with 36% of its youth unemployed be letting people in? How about giving their own a chance?

Also I do not think anyone can argue with stats that show 40% of prisoners are foreigners.

Maybe the statistics are racist too....


I also assume that it is perfectly fine to vote parties of the left but totally wrong to vote a right win party....I forgot that democracy only works one way


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## Dillinger

NickZ said:


> We're talking about people that beat little old ladies to death for a couple of Euros. They won't think twice about killing a dog no matter if he's the size of a pony or a mouse.


 NOT every single thief is like that ... 95% of thieves are looking for an easy target ... they see dogs and move along. We are here to give a few suggestions. That is mine.

The other set that you talk about? Well one would be very unlucky to meet those anywhere in the world.


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## Dillinger

Saturday Night in Stevenage ... that is scarey ... get in line for a kebab and you enter hell.

Has anyone got any crime info on foreigners being attacked or not? scaremonegring does not help but real info does. if ther is an area where this is happening let us all know.


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## Giacomina

Sorry Marenostrum, 

I forgot that to many people when I use the word fascist, it sounds like a condemnation.
Its not. Its a political group in most european countries.

I dont think that 'foreigners' are taking jobs away from young italians. I really dont, or young greeks. I have lived in Rome, Umbria, Puglia and Calabria and nowhere do I see foreigners having jobs that young Italians want to do. Its very, its extremely, difficult to get work in Italy without being Italian even with degrees and special training. We all experience that, read some of the difficulties people here on the expat forum have findingwork.

That is as it should be, naturally the jobs should go to Italains whomhave more of a right to those jobs than we do, its their country. But harrassing, abusing, hitting, stealing from and killing people because they are of another race, or have an accent, is just plain bad, no matter whether the austerity plan is choking them or not!


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## Giacomina

Dillinger, 

I wouldnt call it being attacked, but I have been intentionally knocked off side walks nd harshly shoved out of line many times at vegetable markets, including having my feet stepped on by high heeled shoes. I have grey hair which I dont dye and I dress in a conservative english type way, so its evident that I'm not Italian. I'm quite stand offish in my mannerisms and not the slightest bit arrogant or pushy. 

Sometimes I feel sad when I have to accept this kind of treatment. More often now days my husband accompanies me to do the shopping, that helps, at least all we get then is the hostile looks if we stick together.

My husband saw what happened in England. He is a Brit. citizen, and we dont want to live there because fascists are becoming more violent there now.

p.s. We arent black or brown or oriental.


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## Giacomina

marenostrum said:


> You tell me, should a country with 36% of its youth unemployed be letting people in? How about giving their own a chance?


I believe, through observations of over 6 years, that both Italians and Greeks prefer 

to hire mature applicants with experience rather than hire young people. 

It is also obvious that Italians prefer to hire Italians and Greeks, Greeks. 

That being said, I also observe that persons 

with experience and a bit of maturity, will be chosen because experience and maturity 

are valued much more than education. 

Youths who are inexperienced have only got 

the hope that parents will set them up in business, which often happens.

Additionaly Italians will, with hardly ever an exception, hire a family member/relative 

ahead of others. 

Makes sense really.


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## marenostrum

Giacomina said:


> Dillinger,
> 
> I wouldnt call it being attacked, but I have been intentionally knocked off side walks nd harshly shoved out of line many times at vegetable markets, including having my feet stepped on by high heeled shoes. I have grey hair which I dont dye and I dress in a conservative english type way, so its evident that I'm not Italian. I'm quite stand offish in my mannerisms and not the slightest bit arrogant or pushy.
> 
> Sometimes I feel sad when I have to accept this kind of treatment. More often now days my husband accompanies me to do the shopping, that helps, at least all we get then is the hostile looks if we stick together.
> 
> My husband saw what happened in England. He is a Brit. citizen, and we dont want to live there because fascists are becoming more violent there now.
> 
> p.s. We arent black or brown or oriental.



Man in court accused of killing student Kieran Crump Raiswell - Manchester Evening News
Lynn Rogers, prosecuting, told the court: "The common assault, the crown say, there is a nexus between the two offences and they are linked."

I wonder what the link is, racism maybe? but of course the media won't say it because the victim is a white brit.


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## Giacomina

*Yes, its true.*

There have been so many incidents covered up in the USA where gangs of blacks beat up whites in buses, on the streets and near subways, even murdering them, and also murders of young white women.

They avoid putting the pictures of the perps in the news, meanwhile focusing on murders involving whites against whites and of course focusing a ton of media attention on school massecres which are always done by young white men, so much media info given on these that we even know what the perp's favorite candy bar was.

Its all bad. Humans like their own kind and are afraid of other races. It begs the question as to why people want to go to so much trouble to relocate away from their families and their people?

I think the EU is ruining Europe, for more reasons than easy immigration laws, but that is another thread, maybe we should start one on that topic!


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## yesman

There is no such thing as romanian gangsters


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## Dillinger

Giacomina said:


> Dillinger,
> 
> I wouldnt call it being attacked, but I have been intentionally knocked off side walks nd harshly shoved out of line many times at vegetable markets, including having my feet stepped on by high heeled shoes. I have grey hair which I dont dye and I dress in a conservative english type way, so its evident that I'm not Italian. I'm quite stand offish in my mannerisms and not the slightest bit arrogant or pushy.
> 
> Sometimes I feel sad when I have to accept this kind of treatment. More often now days my husband accompanies me to do the shopping, that helps, at least all we get then is the hostile looks if we stick together.
> 
> My husband saw what happened in England. He is a Brit. citizen, and we dont want to live there because fascists are becoming more violent there now.
> 
> p.s. We arent black or brown or oriental.


So the locals are not quite as pictured in the brochure huh? Nuts. 

Hostile looks? In general or at the market/free for all? Is that a Calabrese thing? I see that you have lived all over Italy. Was it the same elsewhere?


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## pudd 2

yesman said:


> There is no such thing as romanian gangsters


oh no every race creed and coulor has bad people true


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## Giacomina

Dillinger said:


> So the locals are not quite as pictured in the brochure huh? Nuts.
> 
> Hostile looks? In general or at the market/free for all? Is that a Calabrese thing? I see that you have lived all over Italy. Was it the same elsewhere?


No, italy is not like the pictures in tourist brochures.

Hostile looks, sometimes scowling ones, are most prevalent in the Umbria, Toscana regions. I have been further north only for short vacations, where I was so interested in the architecture that I didnt focus on the social anthropological aspects of the areas, but I suspect that a similar welcome is awaiting everywhere in Italy.

I once read an expat blogger who cheerily wrote that it's a custom for Italians to give anyone whom they don't know the once over, beginning from the head, down to the toes and back, not meeting the eyes and then the disaproving or at least a bored look, depending upon the evaluation gathered. I think that most foreigners will get the look of disaproval, as few will wear those very uncomfortable but stylish shoes when walking long distances on cobbled streets.

E' la vita in bel'italia.


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## pudd 2

iam british and i have moved to abruzzo per sempre and i find this post anti italian and untrure and even a bit racist people all over the world treet you as you treat them 
i have never had any bad treatment from the abruzze who are a proud race in my opinion this post is inflametry and likely to put of people moving to one of the best countrys in the world for culture history food need i go on


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## italy

the whole thread is full of differing ideas and opinions some of which many of us will not agree with.. however a lot is based on peoples experience and backgrounds so everyone is entitled to a view ... its hardly a racist thread but it can touch nerves.. the main point i would say is that crime in places like Abruzzo and the Marche is very low... for most of us as we tend to live outside the ghetto areas .. and ghetto areas here do exist but are so small that one would hardly notice... factually i believe Marche has one of the lowest crime rates in all of Europe not just Italy and Abruzzo is somewhere close behind.. does racism exist here ..yes of course... its quite common for Italians in general to blame everything that happens on Albanian and Rumanians ... and they for sure until they get to know them would not like them as neighbors... once they realise they are not hardened criminals they will be friendly to them but will also lock their front doors because they will never trust them.. strange because they will use them to look after their old people but will make sure everything of value is removed before doing so..


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## Giacomina

*Reality check*

Pudd2

I dont think anything in the thread is inflammatory or racist against Italians.
Saying the truth is good for everyone, then you may find out what you can do about it.

Its important for people thinking of moving to Italy to know things that they will have to deal with once they get here.

Its much better to understand some of the things that can happen when living and visiting Italy before taking the time, effort and money to relocate. We had an Italian lawyer tell us this when we lived in Orvieto, Umbria.

If you read the French expat threads you will see some posts even more explicit about the difficulties ex pats face like; how not being french is always a stigma, and not speaking french well enough even after 20 years of french language lessons and being married to french speaking spouses! 

Many ex pats feel sad about never being accepted in the communities they have moved to where they have purchased expensive houses.

I think you are right, some people will decide not to move to Italy based on their own experiences and what they hear from others who have done it. If they realize that its not their fault personally but that there is a general distrust from Italians who perhaps have a sense that their country is being taken over by foriegners who are getting their jobs and buying up their properties, then they will accept that there is a sort of Stranieri Tax that foriegners in Italy must pay because they are not Italain.

In my opinion it is good to know what you will face here, it will save tons of tears, heart break and an empty wallet.

Being able to face reality and adapt to it is more important than taking nicely when so much of ones life will be spent adjusting to a new culture only to find out that it makes you very unhappy in the long run. People need to think hard about such a move.
I would never do it if I had children to raise here.

I have lived in Rome, which of all the places in Italy, I found the most accepting of stranieri. I enjoyed the friends I made there very much, they were sincere.

I can't speak about ghettoes however, because I haven't lived in a ghetto. 

I see heroin abuse and needles thrown on the ground in ordinary neighborhoods in every single Italian town I have lived in, and in wealthy neighborhoods as well. My understanding is that a lot of Italians have drug addictions and live at home with their families and hold jobs. This of course is much different than what we know of drugs in the USA, Canada and Britain.

I am very happy for you that you have found a great area to live in the Abbruzzo. 
Cheers!

May others be so fortunate!


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## Giacomina

Dear Italy,

Last time I checked the crime rates, I think it was solo the murder rate, the USA was tops, Italy second. 

As for general crime? I was more concerned with getting killed than mugged so dunno.

Car accidents are the number one cause of death in Italy.

Drive Carefully!!!


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## BBCWatcher

You can check the intentional homicide rates reported by the United Nations. (Hint: No, Italy is not #2. For that matter, no, the U.S. is not #1.)


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## italy

eurostat crime details is most probably the best linked and up to date data although its just numbers... its how you feel that counts and some posts on here have to my mind made far more impact of adding reality and knowledge that could help all of us that decide to move to new countries.. still knowledge is above all based on experience and shan-grilla for some might well be hell for others... would have to agree that city life is best if you want to be accepted..... rural life anywhere is full of nosy neighbors and suspicious looks ...


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## Giacomina

Thanks for the links and corrections everyone!


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## NickZ

In the real world nobody gives a damn about relative stats. Telling people it's okay if they get robbed/mugged/etc because it's worse some place isn't going to work.


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## sheilamarsco

never had any suspicious looks or nosy neighbours in the rural part of abruzzo i live in never had any problems at all but then i wouldn't move anywhere based on what i read on a forum. re not being accepted same applies in my own country scotland some people are nice some aren't most are friendly decent people often you get back what you put out i.e. if you are friendly most people are the same to you if you act in an unfriendly manner that's what you'll get too.


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## Giacomina

*Exactly*



NickZ said:


> In the real world nobody gives a damn about relative stats. Telling people it's okay if they get robbed/mugged/etc because it's worse some place isn't going to work.


Very true. I often pondered the wisdom of that notion. 

If one person I love gets beaten or murdered on the same day that a school masacre takes place, it won't make me feel less the heavy grief or the terror at what happened in my own life.

If one of these crimes were to happen to me, the shock of the misfortune/ injury would block my empathy for others for some time to come, unless of course I became completely mad or took a LOT of heavy meds. Not an option for someone like me really.


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## Giacomina

*Texas*



italy said:


> eurostat crime details is most probably the best linked and up to date data although its just numbers... its how you feel that counts and some posts on here have to my mind made far more impact of adding reality and knowledge that could help all of us that decide to move to new countries.. still knowledge is above all based on experience and shan-grilla for some might well be hell for others... would have to agree that city life is best if you want to be accepted..... rural life anywhere is full of nosy neighbors and suspicious looks ...


I lived in a small town in Texas and in some small towns in Montana in the USA for short times and there were no suspicious looks or scowls, only smiles and welcomes. But then America has its other problems. 

To be honest, I can do without a bunch of happy faces and hearty welcomes from these people in Italy.

The thing I resent is having to pay the Stranieri Tax, whether that is in higher charges for everything, or in things like waiting in line while someone else comes in who is a relative or is a marchese's tenth cousin removed and I and any other person with an accent has to wait until the relative etc. is finished. Or when they talk really fast in a dialect once they realize I use proper italian so they can confuse me into buying something totally inappropriate to what I asked for. Or when I ask if there is hot water in the kitchen, because I dont see a hot water heater and I am told that there is, and I pay the rent, move in and find that in fact, there is no hot water in the kitchen, but the cupboards look really nice.

I lived in Rome with no hot water in the kitchen and no washing machine for one whole year. I did laundry in the shortest little bathtub you ever did see. It was one of the best years of my life, but I knew before I moved in what I was going to face.

The thing that is hardest for me to accpt about the Italains is their deceit, it seems constant, pathological and accomplishes nothing.


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