# NHS Health Cover



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Vaguely somewhere in the dim distant past, I remember reading that, if you had paid 7 years NI contributions you could get health cover in the UK even if you lived in Spain.

Brits abroad could have rights to free NHS treatment restored - Telegraph



Has any body got any knowledge of what has happened to this. I thought it was to 
coincide with the removal of the S1 forms last March

Ta
xx


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is a more recent article which might explain it. After March last year.
NHS rejects expats returning from Spain - Telegraph
On the bottom of our pension forms it did say to take out private health insurance,so we carried on, with our already 'in place' private policy, as well as being entitled to Spanish State healthcare. We have EHICs to cover other European countries,including UK,for visits,for emergency care only.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

This morally wrong, I paid N.I. contributions for 50 years, I have and am still paying tax to the U.K. coffers, and for all these payments I get nothing.

I also pay Spanish tax.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Hepa said:


> This morally wrong, I paid N.I. contributions for 50 years, I have and am still paying tax to the U.K. coffers, and for all these payments I get nothing.
> 
> I also pay Spanish tax.


I hesitate to say this and don't want to be confrontational but if you have chosen to move from the UK surely you gave up rights knowingly *ducks for cover*


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Helenameva said:


> I hesitate to say this and don't want to be confrontational but if you have chosen to move from the UK surely you gave up rights knowingly *ducks for cover*


You've phrased it better than I was going to


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

No this is not it. I know the S1 were stopped.

BUT they were supposed to introduce a system where if you had paid in 7yrs + NI you could get nhs treatment in the UK??????


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Helenameva said:


> I hesitate to say this and don't want to be confrontational but if you have chosen to move from the UK surely you gave up rights knowingly *ducks for cover*



Fair enough, but can I have all the tax I have paid whilst living here, rebated to the coffers of the country I now live in.

I have relatives who work in the N.H.S. maternity unit, when I last visited the U.K. they were horrified that I had to seek a private eye clinic for treatment, when many from other countries deliberately travel to the U.K. to give birth at the expense of the N.H.S.

The governments deliberately discriminate against Ex Pats knowing that we have no redress whatsoever, fiddled figures for winter fuel allowance, frozen pensions, 15 year time limit on voting, extra charges on passports. What we need is representation at government level.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Helenameva said:


> I hesitate to say this and don't want to be confrontational but if you have chosen to move from the UK surely you gave up rights knowingly *ducks for cover*


If it was a shop and you don't get what you pay for, then you are entitled to a refund.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

The clue is in the I of NI which stands for Insurance and as with most Insurances, once you stop paying the premiums the cover stops.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> The clue is in the I of NI which stands for Insurance and as with most Insurances, once you stop paying the premiums the cover stops.


In this case not so, most retirees are covered 'til they snuff it, all are covered providing they reside in the U.K.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> In this case not so, most retirees are covered 'til they snuff it, all are covered providing they reside in the U.K.


but as a retiree you continue to be covered in Spain don't you - paid for by the UK?

you can't have it both ways

the UK system is residence based & you don't live there

The Spain system is contribution-based & the UK makes those contributions for you - in the country in which you *choose *to live


you continue to be covered for essential & emergency treatment while on holiday in the UK or elsewhere in Europe as well - just like any other holidaymaker - because that's what you *are *when in the UK 

I really don't see what you have to complain about


early retirees make a choice too - no EU country pays for the healthcare of early retirees in another country - I would imagine that the feeling is if you can afford to retire early & move to another country you can afford health insurance 

maybe if you can't, you should think twice about a) choosing to retire early & b) choosing to move to another country


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Your tax and NI is not a savings account. It paid for many services you did or had eligibility to benefit from whilst living in the UK and your pension. There is no pot with your name on to rebate.


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

The matter is complex. however like many I have 50 years worth of contributions into the stinking pot BUT I researched and fully accepted that on moving to another EU country at retirement that would cover me and mine for a level of healthcare in that country which equated to the level of healthcare provided to the citizens of that country. Then other than emergency treatment during a visit to the UK, I would be excluded from any form of elective treatment. At the time the UK government was on the point of raising the contribution paid, in this case to Spain to 4200GBP per annum per capita for pensioners.

That is in excess of the contributions made by many people in the UK to the National Insurance scheme in any case.

As regards taxation in two countries, things would be better if so many did not try to hide under the radar and keep a foot in both camps. Firstly all Crown pensions are taxed in the UK, thats it no escape. However you cannot be taxed in another country, in this case Spain, on *the same income* as Spain and many other nations are signatories to an International Treaty on the subject preventing dual taxation.

However I do know a number of people who have lived in Spain permanently for over 16 years, who unlawfully maintain a presence on the electoral roll, keep an address in the UK via relatives and run home to sponge off the NHS etc. Yet make no contribution whatsoever to either country as their pensions are paid in the UK, they claim, and are not tax residents of Spain.

Not exactly the stuff of honesty.

regards
Ian


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

_shel said:


> Your tax and NI is not a savings account. It paid for many services you did or had eligibility to benefit from whilst living in the UK and your pension. There is no pot with your name on to rebate.


My very simplistic view is to see national insurance as we see car or house insurance. We pay the insurance companies £1000s over the years, but the minute we stop and/or leave the country, they no longer cover us. 

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

IanB said:


> However I do know a number of people who have lived in Spain permanently for over 16 years, who unlawfully maintain a presence on the electoral roll, keep an address in the UK via relatives and run home to sponge off the NHS etc. Yet make no contribution whatsoever to either country as their pensions are paid in the UK, they claim, and are not tax residents of Spain.
> 
> Not exactly the stuff of honesty.
> 
> ...



... in all probability they are tax resident in Spain but simply don't know they are (after 183 days it's automatic).

One day it'll come home to roost and they'll start bleating!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

so news on the 7years plan then!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> but as a retiree you continue to be covered in Spain don't you - paid for
> I really don't see what you have to complain about
> 
> iy


Simple answer, I pay thousands to the U.K. coffers, In return I get nothing, worse I am also discriminated against, make the ex pat pensioners pay, deny them the services that they have paid in to all there lives, freeze the pensions of certain ex pats, only allow them their democratic rights for fifteen years.

I will complain whilst they take taxes, no taxation without representation.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

cambio said:


> so news on the 7years plan then!


I should imagine that any 7yr plan would be on the bottom list of any future UK political party in the UK, pensioners once they have moved to live in another country, would probably be 'out of sight, out of mind'. We are just waiting for God aren't we?, and having a bit of enjoyment of another culture, and some sun shine, plus some very cold winters, while we wait. 
None of the UK's leading parties have any particular set agenda, on anything! They are a mish mash of men and women who just like a good debate, and make promises! promises and regular mistakes of all kinds!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Simple answer, I pay thousands to the U.K. coffers, In return I get nothing, worse I am also discriminated against, make the ex pat pensioners pay, deny them the services that they have paid in to all there lives, freeze the pensions of certain ex pats, only allow them their democratic rights for fifteen years.
> 
> I will complain whilst they take taxes, no taxation without representation.


Sorry if I'm wrong but aren't you a pensioner? 

If so, then the UK is paying for you to have health care available to you in Spain.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Simple answer, I pay thousands to the U.K. coffers, In return I get nothing, worse I am also discriminated against, make the ex pat pensioners pay, deny them the services that they have paid in to all there lives, freeze the pensions of certain ex pats, only allow them their democratic rights for fifteen years.
> 
> I will complain whilst they take taxes, no taxation without representation.


I'll say it again.....


you get the same access to healthcare (& whatever other benefits are or are not available) as a Spanish national in the country in which *you choose to reside*

you get the same access to essential or emergency healthcare in the UK & other EU countries* as a tourist* as other EU tourists

your pension _isn't _frozen because you are in the EU - those who choose to leave the EU have to accept that their pensions will be frozen because there are no agreements

I don't know what else you can expect :confused2:


I do agree that we should all be able to vote in national elections beyond 15 years - or get the choice of voting in the national elections in the country in which we reside


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I do agree that we should all be able to vote in national elections beyond 15 years - or get the choice of voting in the national elections in the country in which we reside


I disagree with this point.

If one has chosen to live in a new country, why should we be able to vote in one that we have left behind?

Some would argue that as (pensioner) tax payers, they should have a right to vote in that country - but why, the politicians will have very little influence over their new lives in their new country.


YES, we should be able to vote in our new country of choice.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I disagree with this point.
> 
> If one has chosen to live in a new country, why should we be able to vote in one that we have left behind?
> 
> ...


I would prefer to vote in Spain

however - since I will eventually get a pension from the UK (because I'm entitled to it) that does still tie me financially to the UK & I'd like some say, however miniscule, in the future of that pension

as it is, I will have to work 7 years longer than I originally expected to before I receive it..........


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I'll say it again.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I expect value for the monies that the U.K. deduct from my income, at the moment we get nothing that has not already been paid for in 50 years of N.I. contributions. I also expect that whilst they are deducting these monies that I should have fair representation for as long as the monies are deducted. No taxation without representation.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I expect value for the monies that the U.K. deduct from my income, at the moment we get nothing that has not already been paid for in 50 years of N.I. contributions. I also expect that whilst they are deducting these monies that I should have fair representation for as long as the monies are deducted. No taxation without representation.



what aren't you getting that all other residents of Spain get 

because when you choose to live in an EU country as an EU citizen, you are entitled to what the other residents get - no more no less

that's EU rules

you can't have what is provided for those who live in a country in which you *choose *not to live 

EU rules again


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> what aren't you getting that all other residents of Spain get
> 
> because when you choose to live in an EU country as an EU citizen, you are entitled to what the other residents get - no more no less
> 
> ...


The ex pats in Spain are discriminated against by the U.K. government, for example, pensioners in the U.K. are entitled to Winter Fuel allowance, Pensioners in the European part of Spain have colder winters than those in the leafy Home Counties. European rules stated that all ex pats that are entitled to this allowance. 

The U.K. government have fiddled the average temperature readings by including the Spanish summer temperatures, thus making the year round temperature warmer than those in CleckHuddersFax or posh persons Surrey, the allowance should have been based on the Winter averages

I will repeat, whilst I pay taxes into the U.K. coffers, no matter where I live, the Canary Isles or the far side of the Moon, I expect a fair crack of the whip from a U.K. government that spends those taxes, I feel that the Ex Pat Pensioners, particular those in the European part of Spain are having their rights continually infringed, by a U.K. government that has no interest in pensioners abroad, who have and still are contributing quite substantial amounts, most of those said ex pats are of little financial burden to the U.K.


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

Goodness me Hepa. I really do noy understand where you are coming from.

1. If your circumstances are as you say they are then your tax allowances in the UK will be £10,500 before you pay nay tax at all. The State pension that you have contributed to in small amounts over the period of 50 years does NOT reach that tax limit.

2. If you have PRIVATE pensions that take you above the tax thresholds laid down for all of us then any tax liability CANNOT be taken from your State pension. It does come into the calculations for tax liability and rightly so BUT THERE IS NO MECHANISM WHATSOEVER FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF WORK AND PENSIONS to make any reductions. Any tax liability will be taken from your private pension income and that alone. That also includes things like NHS pensions and Civil Service pensions, they do have the relevant mechanisms.

Howevr point 3 is that your pension contributions to a private plan will already have been made on a"tax free" basis. Not so much directly in your pocket but by way of GOVERNMENT contributions to your fund from the public purse to match your own contirbutions if it was totally your own pension plan. Not only that the EARNINGS form those funds would also have been treated very generously for tax purposes until Gordon Brown made a number of raids on such plans. There fore for your 50 years worth of contributions much in line with my own circumstances you HAVE ALREADY HAD THE MONEY in abundance.

All that is happening at the moment is what all of us have to face up to and that is income is taxed. Even your UK NI contributions were NOT paid out of tax free income and if like me you worked as a small business as a limited company then my NI contributions employees and employers plus the accountable tax element amounted pretty close to 27% of my TOTAL earnings for over 25 years of my working life. So yes I get pee'd off but I live with it. Becoming a full time resident in Spain will increase my tax liability but that has to be offset in so many other ways which I and many others accept.

No you are not penalised any more than anyone else in society.

There is no such thing as a free lunch in this world.

regards Ian


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

IanB said:


> Goodness me Hepa. I really do noy understand where you are coming from.
> 
> 1. If your circumstances are as you say they are then your tax allowances in the UK will be £10,500 before you pay nay tax at all. The State pension that you have contributed to in small amounts over the period of 50 years does NOT reach that tax limit.
> 
> ...


You have missed the point completely, I can afford and am quite able to prepare and cook my own lunch, thankyou

Yes I am already aware of what you say and the ins and outs of pension contributions, running my own business, been there done it, a long time ago.

All I want is for ex pat pensioners not to be ignored or discriminated against, which they are. Limited voting, 15 years only, loss of allowances, little if any representation by M.P.'s, who are more concerned with rightly with their own local voters.

Like I said in a previous post, let my tax be transferred to the authorities where I live, then give me then voting rights and other entitlements in the area where I live.

However the U.K. will not do that, will they?


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

For what it's worth Hepa, I agree that there shouldn't be a no mans land for the voting rights and I also understand your point of view about paying taxes on your pension. Thank you for explaining and forgive me for stirring the hornets' nest!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Helenameva said:


> For what it's worth Hepa, I agree that there shouldn't be a no mans land for the voting rights and I also understand your point of view about paying taxes on your pension. Thank you for explaining and forgive me for stirring the hornets' nest!


Ha ha!! there are worse hornets nests on here, stir a few more, gives the old fogies something to witter about


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Calas felices said:


> The clue is in the I of NI which stands for Insurance and as with most Insurances, once you stop paying the premiums the cover stops.


Wrong, if you retire early in the UK you still get the benefit of the health service without paying the as you say I part.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Roy C said:


> Wrong, if you retire early in the UK you still get the benefit of the health service without paying the as you say I part.


 And for that we should be grateful. Most insurances dont cover you the minute you stop paying - regardless of how long you've been with them or how much you've paid in.

Jo xxx


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

If we could go back to my earlier and original post. Has any one any knowledge of what happened to the "if you have paid in 7 years etc etc" re health care in the UK.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I didn't, so I did a bit of searching. It might seem an odd source, but this organisation is taking a keen interest because of the situation of missionaries who have spent long periods working abroad. Their website indicates that ministers are still considering which groups of migrants should be exempt from charges for NHS treatment on visits back to the UK:-

Access to NHS treatment - possible changes | Global Connections


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

> The proposal to confirm the entitlement of any person who has previously paid (at least seven years?) of National Insurance contributions (please note: the initial proposal below was for a 7 year NI period to qualify. We think it likely, but don’t know for sure whether a link to NI will be included in the regulations, and even if a link to NI is included, the duration may well be different.)
> 
> Despite the fact that “responses broadly supported the idea that those with a previous long-term relationship with the country should be able to continue to access free NHS care when they are here…the Government supports the principle of those who have previously made a fair contribution continuing to be entitled to free NHS treatment...” And “in line with the principle that everybody makes a fair contribution, we propose to confirm the entitlement of any person who has previously paid at least seven years of National Insurance contributions”.


Thats the bit

Thanks Lynn, Knew I had read this


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

cambio said:


> Thats the bit
> 
> Thanks Lynn, Knew I had read this


w
Whilst it is still a proposal, is the fact which would concern me, we don't even know who is going to be living in Number 10 after May this year.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

fergie said:


> w
> Whilst it is still a proposal, is the fact which would concern me, we don't even know who is going to be living in Number 10 after May this year.


It does not concern me, i just wanted to know if it had come about. To be honest, I no longer give a &^*^* about who is in power, they are all a bunch of liars and thieves and are all one and the same. I cannot change anything, even by voting, things will not change, the world will still revolve around those in power while the rest of us sit back and watch I'll get me coat


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

cambio said:


> It does not concern me, i just wanted to know if it had come about. To be honest, I no longer give a &^*^* about who is in power, they are all a bunch of liars and thieves and are all one and the same. I cannot change anything, even by voting, things will not change, the world will still revolve around those in power while the rest of us sit back and watch I'll get me coat


I may be being overly cynical here (wouldn't be the first time) but there is a tiny niggling thought at the back of my mind that this apparent generosity on the part of Ministers in wishing to recognise the contributions expats have made in the past might just change, in a few more years' time, to saying that they are no longer going to pay for health care abroad for any expats, including pensioners - after all, the facility is there for us to go back to the UK to avail ourselves of treatment if we need it. I do hope I'm wrong but knowing the snakelike way politicians think ....


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I didn't, so I did a bit of searching. It might seem an odd source, but this organisation is taking a keen interest because of the situation of missionaries who have spent long periods working abroad. Their website indicates that ministers are still considering which groups of migrants should be exempt from charges for NHS treatment on visits back to the UK:-
> 
> Access to NHS treatment - possible changes | Global Connections


Ah Ha! Missionaries can cover a wide group of people, we can all claim to have been in that 'position' one time or another


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> I may be being overly cynical here (wouldn't be the first time) but there is a tiny niggling thought at the back of my mind that this apparent generosity on the part of Ministers in wishing to recognise the contributions expats have made in the past might just change, in a few more years' time, to saying that they are no longer going to pay for health care abroad for any expats, including pensioners - after all, the facility is there for us to go back to the UK to avail ourselves of treatment if we need it. I do hope I'm wrong but knowing the snakelike way politicians think ....


Nope i am with you on that one, when we came here last year, we knew the goal posts would keep changing, but as in most things in life, those that abuse the system seem to get the better deal. We always said we would be here forever,BUT if they change the rules on healthcare for pensioners ( 11 years to go for us) then I am afraid, we will have to return to the old country and see what happens. I am a realist, and will worry about that if and when it happens.

As an aside, its one of the reasons I think it is important to be legal etc. When judgement day comes a calling, one would hope that the authorities would look more favorably on those who have contributed

I have been offered work since getting here,to which I had always said no to, BUT going autonomo may be a good thing for us, paying that rather than Private health cover makes no difference to us. But lots to consider first.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

cambio said:


> Nope i am with you on that one, when we came here last year, we knew the goal posts would keep changing, but as in most things in life, those that abuse the system seem to get the better deal. We always said we would be here forever,BUT if they change the rules on healthcare for pensioners ( 11 years to go for us) then I am afraid, we will have to return to the old country and see what happens. I am a realist, and will worry about that if and when it happens.
> 
> As an aside, its one of the reasons I think it is important to be legal etc. When judgement day comes a calling, one would hope that the authorities would look more favorably on those who have contributed
> 
> I have been offered work since getting here,to which I had always said no to, BUT going autonomo may be a good thing for us, paying that rather than Private health cover makes no difference to us. But lots to consider first.


We're hedging our bets - although we are now in the Spanish state health system as my OH is a pensioner and I qualify as his dependant, we're keeping our private health insurance on as well, especially as the company we're with doesn't withdraw cover or increase premiums for the over 65s.


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