# EU Family Visa - Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige



## bebo9989

Backstory: My husband is British and myself and our son are Canadian. We will not quite meet the financial requirements within the amount of time I have left to stay in the UK. We are looking at getting a visa for us to join as family in Germany so that we don't have to leave Europe and go all the way back to Canada to wait until we meet the requirements. If we had some sort of a Visa that permitted us to be there also we could apply for our UK Visas from Germany which would be a massive help.

I called the embassy in London but got some conflicting information about the visas compared to online. She said that we didn't need to register with the local authorities within the first two weeks and that as a UK resident my husband didn't need to register for the first six month. She also said that we will need to prove our income that we can support ourselves, but I haven't seen it outlined anywhere. So I wanted to ask here to see what others had experienced with the application and what was actually required.

We are going to be going to Halle in Germany, so I think the nearest place to apply for the visas is Leipzig. And I can't find a specific list for what we need to provide to apply for the Aufenthaltskarte für Familienangehörige.

On the Berlin site I found this:

Prerequisites

Family member is not an EU or EEA citizen
_We are Canadian_
Right of freedom of movement applies
Family members only enjoy a right of residence derived from the EU/EEA citizen, if the latter enjoys the right to free movement, e.g. as
an employee
a self-employed person
a non-employed person
_This I actually don't understand_
Family relationship with a citizen of the EU (except Germany) or EEA
Family members in pursuance of the Freedom of Movement Act are, in particular,

spouses/same-sex registered life partners or
minor, unmarried children or
parents

_We are married and have a Canadian marriage certificate_
Family members of Germans do not receive a residence card in pursuance of the Freedom of Movement Act. They may receive a residence permit in pursuance of the Residence Act, if they are not themselves EU or EEA citizens (see under 'More information').
Living in a family unit
The family member and the EU/EEA citizen must be living in a family unit in Berlin.
Main residence in Berlin
_We will get our tenancy agreement as proof for when we move and apply with teh appropriate city near Halle_
A personal interview is required 
_We will be there so we can do the interview_


Documents required

Valid passport
_We have valid passports_
1 current biometric photo
_Will get this done_
35mm x 45mm, frontal shot with neutral facial expression and closed mouth, looking straight into the camera, light background
Nachweis der Verwandtschaft mit dem EU-/EWR-Bürger
i.e. certificate of birth, marriage certificate, partnership certificate
_Marriage certificate from Canada_
Proof of registered residence of the EU or EEA citizen
_Will register with local authorities_
Proof of the right to free movement of the EU/EEA citizen
In individual cases, proof of the right of freedom of movement of the EU/EEA citizen may be required. Please therefore bring the following documents with you:

for employees: confirmation from the employer of the appointment or employment
for self-employed workers: business registration, tax number, current tax demand
for non-employed persons: proof of health insurance and means of subsistence
_Don't fully understand this. If he was employed in the UK can he just come across and look for a job?_
Proof of main residence in Berlin
_Will get this when we move._
Certificate of registration at the main residence or
lease and written confirmation of occupancy from the landlord


If anyone can help me clarify this it would be much appreciated because I don't even know if this is an option for us now.


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## bebo9989

I also called the Halle office but the woman I spoke to didn't speak English. I asked if anyone else there could help me but she said no...  My German isn't good enough to ask all about the Visas and et all of the information we need.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, basically as the spouse of an EU national (cross your fingers for all to go well June 23rd with the referendum), you can join your spouse if he is "exercising his EU rights" in Germany. What that means is that he has a job or has established an entity for self-employment. As "non-employed" they actually mean someone who is retired and on a pension or is otherwise living (somewhat comfortably) on their savings or other assets. 

He can go to Germany to look for work, no problem. But until he finds it, he won't have the financial resources nor the health care coverage (which goes with a job) to allow you to join him as a "non-EU family member." This is the EU (europa.eu) information on how this process is supposed to work: Workers' and pensioners' EU family - Your Europe
Cheers,
Bev


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## bebo9989

> OK, basically as the spouse of an EU national (cross your fingers for all to go well June 23rd with the referendum), you can join your spouse if he is "exercising his EU rights" in Germany. What that means is that he has a job or has established an entity for self-employment. As "non-employed" they actually mean someone who is retired and on a pension or is otherwise living (somewhat comfortably) on their savings or other assets.
> 
> He can go to Germany to look for work, no problem. But until he finds it, he won't have the financial resources nor the health care coverage (which goes with a job) to allow you to join him as a "non-EU family member." This is the EU (europa.eu) information on how this process is supposed to work



Just to clarify would it be under the "Staying abroad for more than three months" or is it the "Permanent residence" that we would be looking at when we go over? And under "Workers' and pensioners' non-EU family" as we are Canadians and don't belong to the EU?


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## Bevdeforges

You start out with "staying abroad for more than three months" - after a few years of residence, you can move to the "permanent residence" category.

Your husband is the EU national - and basically needs to be either a worker or a pensioner to claim residence under his EU rights. You and your son are the "non-EU family."
Cheers,
Bev


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## bebo9989

Thanks Bev! I never really though of the EU referendum affecting the route that we were just starting to look at. We are going to head to Germany in June so fingers crossed we will get this all started


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## ALKB

Just curious: why Halle?

Also, does your husband have any job leads? How good is his German?


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## bebo9989

My family actually immigrated from Germany two generations ago and became Canadian citizens, my eldest aunt was born in Germany but my Mom and my other aunt were born in Canada (as a result I don't think I qualify for the ancestry route). My Oma and Opa were from Leipzig and we have a friend who lives in Halle so we wouldn't be completely alone in the area. My husband speaks some German but more business German. I speak some as well but it is all pretty basic stuff I picked up as a kid.


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## Nononymous

So are you attempting the Surinder Singh route back into Britain, or are you just looking for somewhere temporary to park yourselves until such time as you meet the financial requirements to live in the UK as a family?

If it's the former, from what I understand the British government is making this more difficult - you need to convince them that Germany really is your "home" - so do your research. Not something I know much about other than hearing it's not as easy as it once was.

If the latter, how long do you need to stay outside the UK? As a Canadian you can park yourself in Germany for 90 days as a tourist. Beyond that, you need to apply for a residence permit (strictly speaking it's not a visa, since you can enter the country without one and go to your local Ausländerbehörde for a change of status) based on your reason for staying, typically either working, studying or family. For your husband to "sponsor" you he will need to be employed and earning enough to support you and your son, with proper health insurance. 

I don't know what your husband's job prospects are, particularly around Halle. That's not necessarily somewhere I'd choose to live if, say, employment was my goal. (Though it will be good for improving your German because there will be fewer English-speakers about.) If he can't find a good job within 90 days of your arrival, it won't be possible for you to stay. (If he is self-employed with UK-based remote work, that may not satisfy the Surinder Singh conditions.)

You may find it easier to return to Canada, depending on his job prospects. There are also particular conditions in terms of when he needs to register for his residence card etc. but I'm less familiar with the rules for EU citizens.

PS on edit: Is your son of school age? If so, that's a complicating factor, though if young enough to absorb the language it's not an issue.


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## bebo9989

Nononymous said:


> So are you attempting the Surinder Singh route back into Britain, or are you just looking for somewhere temporary to park yourselves until such time as you meet the financial requirements to live in the UK as a family?
> 
> If it's the former, from what I understand the British government is making this more difficult - you need to convince them that Germany really is your "home" - so do your research. Not something I know much about other than hearing it's not as easy as it once was.
> 
> If the latter, how long do you need to stay outside the UK? As a Canadian you can park yourself in Germany for 90 days as a tourist. Beyond that, you need to apply for a residence permit (strictly speaking it's not a visa, since you can enter the country without one and go to your local Ausländerbehörde for a change of status) based on your reason for staying, typically either working, studying or family. For your husband to "sponsor" you he will need to be employed and earning enough to support you and your son, with proper health insurance.
> 
> I don't know what your husband's job prospects are, particularly around Halle. That's not necessarily somewhere I'd choose to live if, say, employment was my goal. (Though it will be good for improving your German because there will be fewer English-speakers about.) If he can't find a good job within 90 days, it won't be possible for you to stay. (If he is self-employed with UK-based remote work, that may not satisfy the Surinder Singh conditions.)
> 
> You may find it easier to return to Canada, depending on his job prospects. There are also particular conditions in terms of when he needs to register for his residence card etc. but I'm less familiar with the rules for EU citizens.
> 
> PS on edit: Is your son of school age? If so, that's a complicating factor, though if young enough to absorb the language it's not an issue.



It is the latter that we were thinking of doing. But I also haven't fully researched the Surinder Singh route. Honestly we just need to park until we meet the financial requirements and stay together as a family.

I would have to check into the point about proving to the UK Government that it is our home.

I know we can basically hang around the EU for 90 days, but the reason we are looking into us getting a permit or visa of sorts is so that we don't need to go back to do the biometrics as I know you need proof that you are legit in the country that you are applying from (not just a tourist)

We have to look into the job thing for around Halle.

We are waiting for his renewal for his PR card in Canada, we forgot to provide them with secondary identification of sorts which seems a little over the top. But we are trying to get that sorted because his residency expires in October.

Our son is 4 and honestly, I wouldn't even say he speaks English so the last issue shouldn't be a problem.


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## Nononymous

I suspect that finding a suitable job around Halle is going to be the biggest hurdle, but without knowing anything further that's only a guess on my part.


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## ALKB

bebo9989 said:


> I also called the Halle office but the woman I spoke to didn't speak English. I asked if anyone else there could help me but she said no...  My German isn't good enough to ask all about the Visas and et all of the information we need.


You will most probably encounter more of this, particularly in this part of Germany.

Personally, I'd research where most jobs are that your husband is qualified for and try to move there rather than sticking close to a friend - the friend can't get you a residence card, only your husband exercising his treaty rights can!

Anyhow, you are dealing with several different 'layers' of laws. Under EU law, your husband, as an EU national, can stay in another EU country to search for a job up to 6 months. BUT at the same time it says he has to comply with national registration laws.

That means, after 90 days, he is no longer considered a visitor and has to register his residence at the very latest! In Germany, everybody who is registered needs to have comprehensive health insurance. This can be quite expensive when not working.

You and your son on the other hand, have 90 days as visitors and in order to stay longer, your husband needs to exercise treaty rights so you can apply for residence cards.

Do I understand right that your son is not your husband's child? Do you have sole responsibility for him?


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## bebo9989

Ok thanks for the heads up. I am still trying to look fully into our options.

And yes our son is not my husbands child. But I do have sole responsibility for him and have the supporting court documents.


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## bebo9989

Ok so I was looking at the Surinder Singh Route as everyone keep suggesting to use it, because its cheaper etc. But what I cannot find on there is what the minimum amount of time you must have lived as a family in the EEA country that you are coming from. I found a list on the government website for why they can refuse. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...for-an-eea-family-permit-surinder-singh-cases

EUN2.18 Can I invite an applicant in for interview?

The ECO can invite an applicant in for interview as long as any delay or deferral can be justified. The ECO should consider inviting an applicant for interview in the following circumstances:

Strong grounds to doubt applicant is related as claimed to EEA national
Strong grounds to doubt that applicant is genuinely dependent on the EEA national (except spouses and descendants under 21)
Strong grounds to doubt that EEA national is in, or will be going to, the UK
Strong grounds to doubt that the EEA national is, or will be, a qualified person
Strong grounds to suspect the EEA national intends to ‘drop off’ the applicant and return to the country of origin
Strong grounds to suspect a marriage of convenience
Strong doubts about identity of applicant
Strong grounds to consider refusing on the basis of Public Policy, Public Health or Public Security.


But I don't want us to go live in Germany for say 4 months, work, do all of the things that you do in life. And have them say that we didn't live there long enough so therefore we don't qualify. I just don't want to put our eggs in one basket, have the government deny us and then have to say we had a failed previous application when we go through the regular, more expensive route. 

This immigration stuff is stressful and confusing, I totally get why people use immigration lawyers :/


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## ALKB

Every case is different, so there is no set amount of time as such (EU law: 3 months minimum).

Since the UK centre of life rules came into effect, general opinion seems to be that 6 months to a year is a good time frame.


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## bebo9989

Ok. Good to know


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## ALKB

bebo9989 said:


> My family actually immigrated from Germany two generations ago and became Canadian citizens, my eldest aunt was born in Germany but my Mom and my other aunt were born in Canada (as a result I don't think I qualify for the ancestry route). My Oma and Opa were from Leipzig and we have a friend who lives in Halle so we wouldn't be completely alone in the area. My husband speaks some German but more business German. I speak some as well but it is all pretty basic stuff I picked up as a kid.



Have you actually spoken to the German Embassy in Canada about this?

Were your mother's parents both German citizens when your mother was born?

If yes, she might be a dual national from birth, no matter where she was born.

Depending on the laws at the time of your birth, you might actually also be a German national without knowing it. (Which would do away with all that visa stress.)

Are your grandparents still alive or does your mother have any papers regarding their citizenship?


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## bebo9989

ALKB said:


> Have you actually spoken to the German Embassy in Canada about this?
> 
> Were your mother's parents both German citizens when your mother was born?
> 
> If yes, she might be a dual national from birth, no matter where she was born.
> 
> Depending on the laws at the time of your birth, you might actually also be a German national without knowing it. (Which would do away with all that visa stress.)
> 
> Are your grandparents still alive or does your mother have any papers regarding their citizenship?



I have tried to get a hold of them a few time without success. I spoke to the German embassy in London but they were not much help.

I don't know if my grandparents were German citizens when my mom was born.

My Opa passed away in 2006 but my Oma is still around. I would have to ask my mom if she has anything regarding their citizenship. Is there a way of getting anything confirmed if she doesn't have any papers?


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## ALKB

bebo9989 said:


> I have tried to get a hold of them a few time without success. I spoke to the German embassy in London but they were not much help.
> 
> I don't know if my grandparents were German citizens when my mom was born.
> 
> My Opa passed away in 2006 but my Oma is still around. I would have to ask my mom if she has anything regarding their citizenship. Is there a way of getting anything confirmed if she doesn't have any papers?


I don't know - you might be able to get copies of naturalisation records with dates?

German nationality has very little to do with where you are born and a whole lot with to whom you are born.

Since you were born after 1975 you could have acquired citizenship through your mother if she was a German national at the time of your birth. So you'd have to establish whether she was indeed born a dual national or not.

Definitely worth looking into. Maybe email the Embassy in Canada instead of trying to call? Or better yet, send a recorded letter? 

Embassy and Consulates General of the Federal Republic of Germany in Canada - Am I German?


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## Nononymous

It sounds unlikely - the grandparents would have lost German citizenship once they became Canadians, but if your mother was born shortly after arrival who knows. Worth exploring perhaps as there is a possibility, but don't hold out too much hope. And it would not be a quick process if you're documenting things many decades back.


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## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> It sounds unlikely - the grandparents would have lost German citizenship once they became Canadians, but if your mother was born shortly after arrival who knows. Worth exploring perhaps as there is a possibility, but don't hold out too much hope. And it would not be a quick process if you're documenting things many decades back.


Yeah, the big question is: was OP's mother born before or after the grandparents naturalised?


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## bebo9989

ALKB said:


> Yeah, the big question is: was OP's mother born before or after the grandparents naturalised?



My mom was born in Canada in 1959 and my Opa didn't get his citizenship until 1959. My Oma and Aunt on the other hand didn't get Canadian citizenship until 1960.

In theory it looks like my mom might be both German by descent and Canadian by birth. So maybe i might qualify through descent unless there are more stipulations for German children of descent born abroad.

Anyone have more information or insight to it?


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## ALKB

bebo9989 said:


> My mom was born in Canada in 1959 and my Opa didn't get his citizenship until 1959. My Oma and Aunt on the other hand didn't get Canadian citizenship until 1960.
> 
> In theory it looks like my mom might be both German by descent and Canadian by birth. So maybe i might qualify through descent unless there are more stipulations for German children of descent born abroad.
> 
> Anyone have more information or insight to it?


It's extremely complex.

You should research when exactly your grandfather was naturalised in 1959 - before or after your mother was born?

Then it would be good to get some documented evidence about this: your grandparents marriage certificate, their birth certificates, naturalisation certificates, and your mother's birth certificate.

With that, your mother should ask the Embassy in Canada whether that is enough evidence for her to simply apply for a German passport or whether she will have to make an application for nationality verification.


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## bebo9989

Ok, I will have to see if anyone in my family has any of the documents still and contact the embassy.


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## ALKB

bebo9989 said:


> Ok, I will have to see if anyone in my family has any of the documents still and contact the embassy.


German birth and marriage certificates can be ordered (often online) from the municipality where your grandparents were born/where they got married.


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## Nononymous

If the *grandfather* naturalized *after* the mother was born, then there might be a chance, with enough paperwork and bureaucracy.


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