# Can I live in Spain with a telecommuting job with an American company?



## sirdrake

Hi -- I am currently a full-time remote employee with an American company. The company's main offices are in New Jersey and California, but it has many employees who telecommute just like I do. I live in Florida. 
I am wondering if I can have the same work arrangement for a few years in Spain. Is it possible?


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## xabiaxica

sirdrake said:


> Hi -- I am currently a full-time remote employee with an American company. The company's main offices are in New Jersey and California, but it has many employees who telecommute just like I do. I live in Florida.
> I am wondering if I can have the same work arrangement for a few years in Spain. Is it possible?


:welcome:
you would need a work visa which your company would need to arrange - but it won't be an easy or inexpensive process


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> you would need a work visa which your company would need to arrange - but it won't be an easy or inexpensive process


But might be straightforward as the OP's from Puerto Rico ?


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## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> But might be straightforward as the OP's from Puerto Rico ?


yes, that might help indeed - you're thinking the former colony link?


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> yes, that might help indeed - you're thinking the former colony link?


Yes.


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## skip o

Wow, even if someone works for a non-Spanish company, making money off of non-Spanish people, they will need a work visa?

I can imagine nothing better for Spain right now than people like the OP. They take money from another country but spend it Spain.


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## xabiaxica

skip o said:


> Wow, even if someone works for a non-Spanish company, making money off of non-Spanish people, they will need a work visa?
> 
> I can imagine nothing better for Spain right now than people like the OP. They take money from another country but spend it Spain.


yes, if they're not an EU citizen, because they need a 'residence' visa in order to stay for more than 90 days - & if intending to work here, it has to one which permits them to do so

maybe Spain will make it easier for this to happen

maybe pigs will fly past the window ...................


it's the same for non-US citzens wanting to live there, though, if it makes you feel any better


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> it's the same for non-US citzens wanting to live there, though, if it makes you feel any better


In fact even harder, usually, that way round unless one has several ks USD (used to be 100k+)


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## sirdrake

*What is an OP*



gus-lopez said:


> But might be straightforward as the OP's from Puerto Rico ?


And what are the requirements to obtaining it?


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## xabiaxica

sirdrake said:


> And what are the requirements to obtaining it?


you're the OP - Original Poster 
the reason it might be simpler for you is that in certain circumstances, if you're Puerto Rican, you _might _ be able to claim Spanish citizenship by descent

you need to contact the Spanish Consulate to find out


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## mayotom

I have a Texan friend in who does the same thing, He has based himself here but leaves for a month or so every 3 months.


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## xabiaxica

mayotom said:


> I have a Texan friend in who does the same thing, He has based himself here but leaves for a month or so every 3 months.


why does he do that??

if he has a resident/work visa he can stay all year round

if he only has a Schengen/visitor visa he's only allowed to be here for 90 days in every 180 - so should leave for 90 days before returning

and also he wouldn't be legally allowed to work in any case


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## Brangus

gus-lopez said:


> But might be straightforward as the OP's from Puerto Rico ?





xabiachica said:


> yes, that might help indeed - you're thinking the former colony link?


Latin Americans don't have an easier time obtaining Spanish residency. Their advantage is they can apply for citizenship after only two years of residency.


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## snikpoh

Brangus said:


> Latin Americans don't have an easier time obtaining Spanish residency. Their advantage is they can apply for citizenship after only two years of residency.


Interesting - again I think it varies by area.

We have a friend who is from Colombia, married to a Dutch man both below retirement age and not working. They were having trouble getting residencia and health cover (not sure quite why) until they played the 'Colombian card'.

They now have full SIP cards for entire family plus residencias - she told me that it couldn't have been easier once she declared her nationality!


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> why does he do that??
> 
> if he has a resident/work visa he can stay all year round
> 
> if he only has a Schengen/visitor visa he's only allowed to be here for 90 days in every 180 - so should leave for 90 days before returning
> 
> and also he wouldn't be legally allowed to work in any case



Why would he need to be legally allowed? It's easy to work online and live anywhere on tourist visas, why would he bother asking permission from Spain if he works online for an American company? He obviously isnt trying to get a work visa or residency if he leaves every 3 months


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## jojo

009 said:


> Why would he need to be legally allowed?


 I'm not asure of your point??? But the answer I'd give to that question is because living illegally in a country isnt something anyone would advise ! Countries have their rules and regulations and they should be adhered to

Jo


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> Why would he need to be legally allowed? It's easy to work online and live anywhere on tourist visas, why would he bother asking permission from Spain if he works online for an American company? He obviously isnt trying to get a work visa or residency if he leaves every 3 months


if you're on a tourist visa & working in any way at all you are in breach of the terms of the visa

I don't mean just 'checking in' by phone or e-mail - if you are running a business/actually working while in Spain on a tourist visa you are working when all is said & done 

A Schengen visa is for leisure, tourism or business (by which they mean business meetings) - not for living & working in a country even for 90 days at a time


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## NickZ

009 said:


> He obviously isnt trying to get a work visa or residency if he leaves every 3 months


What a person is trying to do isn't really important.

Outside of the legal bits with the visa if you're working from Spain they could argue you should be paying tax in Spain. Failing to do so could be evasion. Not applying for a work or other visa could be seen as an attempt to fool the tax man. Same thing with not getting residency.

Then there is the other issue. There is always the chance that a person will lose their job. Somebody that has been ignoring the rules is a high risk to ignore them again.


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## 009

jojo said:


> I'm not asure of your point??? But the answer I'd give to that question is because living illegally in a country isnt something anyone would advise ! Countries have their rules and regulations and they should be adhered to
> 
> Jo


I dont think you understood the context of my post. I was replying about needing special permission from Spain for an American citizen to work remotely for an American country located in the USA. I dont see the purpose of attempting to start some type of process to get legal permission from Spain to do that


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## 009

NickZ said:


> What a person is trying to do isn't really important.
> 
> Outside of the legal bits with the visa if you're working from Spain they could argue you should be paying tax in Spain. Failing to do so could be evasion. Not applying for a work or other visa could be seen as an attempt to fool the tax man. Same thing with not getting residency.
> 
> Then there is the other issue. There is always the chance that a person will lose their job. Somebody that has been ignoring the rules is a high risk to ignore them again.


lol how is anyone going to get caught working online and getting paid in their home country?


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## jojo

009 said:


> I dont think you understood the context of my post. I was replying about needing special permission from Spain for an American citizen to work remotely for an American country located in the USA. I dont see the purpose of attempting to start some type of process to get legal permission from Spain to do that


 Because legal permission is the only way to live in Spain legally - any other way, is against the law! Like all other EU countries, you cant just pitch up and ignore the authorities. you need the right to be there

Jo


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## jojo

009 said:


> lol how is anyone going to get caught working online and getting paid in their home country?


 Cos they wont have the right visa????? Maybe folk can just arrive in your home country, pitch up and start working illegally, but in Spain they tend to want work visas, permits, proof of income and healthcare... Even EU citizens!

The minute you use the word *"caught"*, you're obviously talking about it being illegal and you know it - So therefore subject to being caught and, if you're non EU deported

Jo xxx


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## 009

jojo said:


> Because legal permission is the only way to live in Spain legally - any other way, is against the law! Like all other EU countries, you cant just pitch up and ignore the authorities. you need the right to be there
> 
> Jo


You still dont seem to understand lol. The point was about legal permission to work, not to be there. The person there was living on tourist visas for 3 months at a time while working remotely with a company in his home country. I hope you can understand this time, I dont know how much more clear it could be lol


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## 009

jojo said:


> Cos they wont have the right visa????? Maybe folk can just arrive in your home country, pitch up and start working illegally, but in Spain they tend to want work visas, permits, proof of income and healthcare... Even EU citizens!
> 
> The minute you use the word *"caught"*, you're obviously talking about it being illegal and you know it - So therefore subject to being caught and, if you're non EU deported
> 
> Jo xxx


The discussion was about a guy working on the internet with a company that has nothing to do with Spain, and living on tourist visas. I dont see a problem with that. I know many people who do that in various countries, and none of them have ever had legal trouble in the country they are staying in. Also none of them have ever attempted to start a pointless process about getting a work visa. Living on a tourist visa is basically stating that you are taking a vacation. Many people who are on vacation still oversee their companies from abroad without requiring a work visa to do so lol


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## jojo

009 said:


> You still dont seem to understand lol. The point was about legal permission to work, not to be there. The person there was living on tourist visas for 3 months at a time while working remotely with a company in his home country. I hope you can understand this time, I dont know how much more clear it could be lol


 For three months on a tourist visa - right, no one would know or care, altho if they found out, then whoever would be in trouble, simply because they are breaking the rules

jo xxx


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## NickZ

The fact nobody has been kicked out for something doesn't mean it's legal. 

Odds are most of us drank under age . The fact I wasn't charged didn't mean it was legal.


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## 009

NickZ said:


> The fact nobody has been kicked out for something doesn't mean it's legal.
> 
> Odds are most of us drank under age . The fact I wasn't charged didn't mean it was legal.


Where is the law that states it's illegal to do some work for your home company while on vacation?


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## jojo

Maybe we are at crossed purposes here. The thread title is* "Can I live in Spain with a telecommuting job with an American company?"* the answer is only with a work visa and permissions

Can you do it illegally??? Well not if you want to do it properly and dont want to get caught and deported

Jo xxx


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## agua642

This thread is getting confusing but still I find it interesting! Do we all need to have a permanent residence or can some1 move in & out of a Country every 3 months ?


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## 009

jojo said:


> Maybe we are at crossed purposes here. The thread title is* "Can I live in Spain with a telecommuting job with an American company?"* the answer is only with a work visa and permissions
> 
> Can you do it illegally??? Well not if you want to do it properly and dont want to get caught and deported
> 
> Jo xxx


I think the confusion cased by my comments is because I was responding to a post in this thread which was a different situation from the original poster's question. The post I was replying to was about a guy who takes extended vacations in Spain while working remotely for an American company at home. I think in this situation he is probably only required to pay taxes in the USA, as it would seem pointless to need a work visa for Spain


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## 009

agua642 said:


> This thread is getting confusing but still I find it interesting! Do we all need to have a permanent residence or can some1 move in & out of a Country every 3 months ?


That was where the confusion was lol, two different ways to do things. While the 2nd one might seem a bit dodgy to some, I dont think it is illegal.


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> You still dont seem to understand lol. The point was about legal permission to work, not to be there. The person there was living on tourist visas for 3 months at a time while working remotely with a company in his home country. I hope you can understand this time, I dont know how much more clear it could be lol


maybe this will be clear

if a non-EU citizen is in Spain on a 90 day visa - he is NOT legally allowed to work

he can go to a business meeting if that is the purpose of his visit 

he can 'check into the office' by e-mail or phone

but unless he is here with a resident/work visa he can't work - the thread is about someone wanting to live in Spain & _*work remotely, full time*_ for an American Company

the answer to that is NO - not without a proper resident/work visa

a 90 day Schengen visa doesn't give you the legal right to live here - & if you don't have the legal right to live here, you don't have the legal right to work here - at all


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> maybe this will be clear
> 
> if a non-EU citizen is in Spain on a 90 day visa - he is NOT legally allowed to work
> 
> he can go to a business meeting if that is the purpose of his visit
> 
> he can 'check into the office' by e-mail or phone
> 
> but unless he is here with a resident/work visa he can't work - the thread is about someone wanting to live in Spain & _*work remotely, full time*_ for an American Company
> 
> the answer to that is NO - not without a proper resident/work visa
> 
> a 90 day Schengen visa doesn't give you the legal right to live here - & if you don't have the legal right to live here, you don't have the legal right to work here - at all


So, if I was a writer on vacation in Spain for example, it would be illegal to write down some thoughts for a new novel?


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## xabiaxica

agua642 said:


> This thread is getting confusing but still I find it interesting! Do we all need to have a permanent residence or can some1 move in & out of a Country every 3 months ?


you're an EU citizen so you can do anything you like in Europe 
I bet you can't just pitch up in Canada or the US & work without the correct visa though 



009 said:


> I think the confusion cased by my comments is because I was responding to a post in this thread which was a different situation from the original poster's question. The post I was replying to was about a guy who takes extended vacations in Spain while working remotely for an American company at home. I think in this situation he is probably only required to pay taxes in the USA, as it would seem pointless to need a work visa for Spain


the guy in the post I think you refer to (the Texan) - if he is basing himself in Spain as the post indicated - but leaving every 90 days presumably to get around the law - then he IS working illegally - plain and simple

tax is neither here nor there - he simply shouldn't be working


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> So, if I was a writer on vacation in Spain for example, it would be illegal to write down some thoughts for a new novel?


write down a few thoughts - I dare say

but if at border control they asked you the purpose of your visit & you said 'to write a novel' - they'd tell you you need a work visa to do so


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> write down a few thoughts - I dare say
> 
> but if at border control they asked you the purpose of your visit & you said 'to write a novel' - they'd tell you you need a work visa to do so


lol why would you admit it?


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## NickZ

009 said:


> . I think in this situation he is probably only required to pay taxes in the USA, as it would seem pointless to need a work visa for Spain


Unless he is doing one of the few exempted types of work if he works in Spain he owes the Spanish tax man money.


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## NickZ

009 said:


> Where is the law that states it's illegal to do some work for your home company while on vacation?


You've got that backward. Where is the law saying it's legal for him to be working?

The only reason he is legally in the country is because he is a tourist. Tourists don't work.


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## 009

NickZ said:


> Unless he is doing one of the few exempted types of work if he works in Spain he owes the Spanish tax man money.


That seems quite ridiculous, he would be pumping his own money into the Spanish economy which he made in the USA. Why should he pay taxes in 2 countries, particularly one where he is on vacation?


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## 009

NickZ said:


> You've got that backward. Where is the law saying it's legal for him to be working?
> 
> The only reason he is legally in the country is because he is a tourist. Tourists don't work.


why is it backwards, if there is no law to break, it cant be illegal


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> lol why would you admit it?


well you might not know you couldn't


& if you _did_ know, you'd be knowingly working illegally


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> why is it backwards, if there is no law to break, it cant be illegal


because he's not here on a visa which entitles him to work

so he's working illegally..................


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> well you might not know you couldn't
> 
> 
> & if you _did_ know, you'd be knowingly working illegally


lol who crares, it's not like you'd be taking a Spaniard's job or taking any money from spain, and you would be paying taxes at home anyways.

Also nobody has shown a law that states that a person is not allowed to continue operating their business while on vacation in a different country. The law you are referring to is about getting a job in spain


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> lol who crares, it's not like you'd be taking a Spaniard's job or taking any money from spain, and you would be paying taxes at home anyways.
> 
> Also nobody has shown a law that states that a person is not allowed to continue operating their business while on vacation in a different country. The law you are referring to is about getting a job in spain


no - it's about _*working *_ in Spain

if you work in Spain you have to pay tax & National Insurance in Spain - if you don't you are breaking the law - working illegally

I think you're deliberately choosing to ignore the fact that we have repeatedly told you that if you are here on a tourist visa & _work_ - you are working illegally

a condition of the visa is that you don't work - or operate a business of any kind, anwhere


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> no - it's about _*working *_ in Spain
> 
> if you work in Spain you have to pay tax & National Insurance in Spain - if you don't you are breaking the law - working illegally
> 
> I think you're deliberately choosing to ignore the fact that we have repeatedly told you that if you are here on a tourist visa & _work_ - you are working illegally
> 
> a condition of the visa is that you don't work - or operate a business of any kind, anwhere


lol ok settle down. Hey, what about residual income. If someone already has a business established and they are making money while on vacation in Spain, yet they dont really have to do any work. Surely that cant be illegal, that would be beyond ridiculous


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> no - it's about _*working *_ in Spain
> 
> if you work in Spain you have to pay tax & National Insurance in Spain - if you don't you are breaking the law - working illegally
> 
> I think you're deliberately choosing to ignore the fact that we have repeatedly told you that if you are here on a tourist visa & _work_ - you are working illegally
> 
> a condition of the visa is that you don't work - or operate a business of any kind, anwhere


those are old laws that dont apply in most countries to digital nomads btw, you can continue operating your business while on vacation. It's when you become a resident that you are supposed to report your income and pay taxes on it.


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> lol ok settle down. Hey, what about residual income. If someone already has a business established and they are making money while on vacation in Spain, yet they dont really have to do any work. Surely that cant be illegal, that would be beyong ridiculous


they wouldn't be working, would they - so it's immaterial

and none of this has anything to do with the OP's question.......which was answered several pages ago


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> those are old laws that dont apply in most countries to digital nomads btw, you can continue operating your business while on vacation. It's when you become a resident that you are supposed to report your income and pay taxes on it.


I'd be interested to see a link - it would be interesting to see if it applies to Spain


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> I'd be interested to see a link - it would be interesting to see if it applies to Spain


I have looked for this information many times and never found a real answer on either side. The consensus among forumers who live this lifestyle is that you dont have to pay in most countries unless you are actually a resident. In any case, I see no reason to pay taxes in 2 countries at once when your business is only in one of them


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## 009

xabiachica said:


> they wouldn't be working, would they - so it's immaterial
> 
> and none of this has anything to do with the OP's question.......which was answered several pages ago


lol this wasnt about the OP's question though, it was about another similar topic that came up in this thread about a non resident


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## kalohi

009 said:


> I see no reason to pay taxes in 2 countries at once when your business is only in one of them


I pay taxes in two countries but I'm a resident in only one. The United States requires all its citizens to pay US income tax no matter where they reside.

You may see no reason to pay taxes in 2 countries, but it's not really up to you, is it? If the law says you need to pay taxes, you have to pay them or you're breaking the law.


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## 009

kalohi said:


> I pay taxes in two countries but I'm a resident in only one. The United States requires all its citizens to pay US income tax no matter where they reside.
> 
> You may see no reason to pay taxes in 2 countries, but it's not really up to you, is it? If the law says you need to pay taxes, you have to pay them or you're breaking the law.


Is your situation the same? you have an American company, and you do some remote work for your American company from abroad as a tourist?

I have read that you have to pay as an American if you are working somewhere else, but I was referring to the opposite. Americans have very little freedom but most other countries aren't so oppressive


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## baldilocks

009 said:


> Is your situation the same? you have an American company, and you do some remote work for your American company from abroad as a tourist?
> 
> I have read that you have to pay as an American if you are working somewhere else, but I was referring to the opposite. Americans have very little freedom but most other countries aren't so oppressive


The USA (and probably Canada as well) are even more rigid about working on a tourist visa - it is illegal. punto, period, full stop. It is the same in most countries - it doesn't matter the source of the work or the method by which is carried out, by doing any form of work (with very few exceptions) you are in breach of your tourist visa regulations!


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## 009

So, nobody has an answer on the tax law in various countries regarding digital nomads? I think it must be because the laws are older than this type of lifestyle. Soon some laws will have to be modified or created to apply specifically to these things as more and more people travel around remotely working. 

Thanks for trying to help to everyone who was attempting to clarify it, I will leave the thread now so people can get back to helping the OP with his issue.

If anyone find an answer please send me a private message so we dont keep straying slightly off topic


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## jojo

009 said:


> So, nobody has an answer on the tax law in various countries regarding digital nomads? I think it must be because the laws are older than this type of lifestyle. Soon some laws will have to be modified or created to apply specifically to these things as more and more people travel around remotely working.
> 
> Thanks for trying to help to everyone who was attempting to clarify it, I will leave the thread now so people can get back to helping the OP with his issue.
> 
> If anyone find an answer please send me a private message so we dont keep straying slightly off topic


Theres not really a way if you're digital nomad from any country that requires a visa to leave it/enter another. EU citizens can travel around the EU to a degree - so I guess we're alright. Really its down to your government to make some agreements with others like the EU system????

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

009 said:


> So, nobody has an answer on the tax law in various countries regarding digital nomads? I think it must be because the laws are older than this type of lifestyle. Soon some laws will have to be modified or created to apply specifically to these things as more and more people travel around remotely working.
> 
> Thanks for trying to help to everyone who was attempting to clarify it, I will leave the thread now so people can get back to helping the OP with his issue.
> 
> If anyone find an answer please send me a private message so we dont keep straying slightly off topic


actually we have a forum where there might be someone posting who knows the answer

Expat Tax - Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad


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## Solwriter

I'm an EU citizen so my situation is different, but I do see the problem here.
Working online is an odd situation.
The problem is that once your websites are 'up there' they are (hopefully) bringing in money all the time. It may not be much, but it is still coming in.
This is good because it is often passive income, but bad because you cannot simply say "that's it, I'm leaving this job". So, in my case, even when not in Spain I am still liable for autonomo fees and taxes, even though I may actually be working for an employer in the UK.
(Ok, I could take all the websites down, but that would take a LOT of work and why do that while they are still bringing in passive income?)

But back to the subject 009 was talking about...
If I were simply a visitor to Spain, with no online business based in Spain, there is no way I would declare my earnings made in the UK to the Spanish tax man.
My earnings would still be made (and taxed) in the UK, even if I used some of them for my visit to Spain.

And if I was the holder of a visitor's visa, it would be ridiculous to assume that I wouldn't at least want to be aware of what was going on with my company back at home. It wouldn't make sense to ignore it. 
I really think it's a fine line here, even though some might not agree.

So, as to working online as a 'digital nomad', I agree with 009. Governments worldwide haven't come to terms with this yet.

And from what I've seen of the US, they are more concerned with money laundering than actually sorting out a system for those online workers who are trying to do the right thing.


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## NickZ

100+ years ago governments and courts established a business is taxed in the location it's management resides.

If you're running a business while sitting on the moon the moon can claim you.


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> I'm an EU citizen so my situation is different, but I do see the problem here.
> Working online is an odd situation.
> The problem is that once your websites are 'up there' they are (hopefully) bringing in money all the time. It may not be much, but it is still coming in.
> This is good because it is often passive income, but bad because you cannot simply say "that's it, I'm leaving this job". So, in my case, even when not in Spain I am still liable for autonomo fees and taxes, even though I may actually be working for an employer in the UK.
> (Ok, I could take all the websites down, but that would take a LOT of work and why do that while they are still bringing in passive income?)
> 
> But back to the subject 009 was talking about...
> If I were simply a visitor to Spain, with no online business based in Spain, there is no way I would declare my earnings made in the UK to the Spanish tax man.
> My earnings would still be made (and taxed) in the UK, even if I used some of them for my visit to Spain.
> 
> And if I was the holder of a visitor's visa, it would be ridiculous to assume that I wouldn't at least want to be aware of what was going on with my company back at home. It wouldn't make sense to ignore it.
> I really think it's a fine line here, even though some might not agree.
> 
> So, as to working online as a 'digital nomad', I agree with 009. Governments worldwide haven't come to terms with this yet.
> 
> And from what I've seen of the US, they are more concerned with money laundering than actually sorting out a system for those online workers who are trying to do the right thing.


I agree - keeping an eye on things, if it's your own business, of course that would have to be acceptable

but the post that prompted this discussion was this one 



mayotom said:


> I have a Texan friend in who does the same thing, He has based himself here but leaves for a month or so every 3 months.


which is someone clearly working full time in Spain while on a visitor visa - which isn't within the conditions of the visa

& what's more, he must know this if he knows he's only allowed to stay 90 days 

yes, it would seem that something needs to be sorted out for 'digital nomads' - but that's the way things stand atm

it's the same for a visitor to the US from the EU - you can stay there up to 90 days - but you can't work - & if you were caught doing so you could get a ban


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## skip o

The whole "can't do any work while on a tourist visa" thing is pretty interesting to me. There is no way people like Donald Trump or other CEOs (let alone people who work for dinky companies) aren't getting on the phone and running their businesses while they are on vacation. There are way too many people who do their work over the phone and internet 7 days a week, and I find it very hard to believe they even think about getting work visas for every country they go to.


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## xabiaxica

skip o said:


> The whole "can't do any work while on a tourist visa" thing is pretty interesting to me. There is no way people like Donald Trump or other CEOs (let alone people who work for dinky companies) aren't getting on the phone and running their businesses while they are on vacation. There are way too many people who do their work over the phone and internet 7 days a week, and I find it very hard to believe they even think about getting work visas for every country they go to.


no, they probably don't 

but the likes of Donald Trump & even those with 'dinky companies' who keep an eye on things while they are genuinely on vacation here, is a whole different thing to someone who deliberately 'moves to Spain' while dodging in & out on a tourist visa

the OP was asking if he could move here as a US citizen - the answer was 'yes, with the right resident/work visa'

then someone said they knew a US citizen who _does _dodge in & out while knowing that they are on a tourist visa.................. but to all intents and purposes they are living & working here illegally


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## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> then someone said they knew a US citizen who _does _dodge in & out while knowing that they are on a tourist visa.................. but to all intents and purposes they are living & working here illegally


But they popped in and (as far as I can tell) haven't posted again.
They were stirring up a debate with comments about 'a friend' who may not even exist and, even if they did, would probably prefer that comment had not been posted here. 

So I did take your earlier point that the person in question was illegal, but saw the original post from this person as a remark which stirred things up rather than answered the question.

But the whole thing about working online is a quagmire right now as far as I can see. And does lead to questions which none of us can answer with absolute certainty (sometimes even with the help of a knowledgeable accountant).


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> But they popped in and (as far as I can tell) haven't posted again.
> They were stirring up a debate with comments about 'a friend' who may not even exist and, even if they did, would probably prefer that comment had not been posted here.
> 
> So I did take your earlier point that the person in question was illegal, but saw the original post from this person as a remark which stirred things up rather than answered the question.
> 
> But the whole thing about working online is a quagmire right now as far as I can see. And does lead to questions which none of us can answer with absolute certainty (sometimes even with the help of a knowledgeable accountant).


yes, if it was a one-time poster I'd agree, but it was a long time member (though infrequent poster) not usually given to stirring things up............... probably didn't even realise that what his friend is doing is illegal 

I suspect he thought it was a solution to the dilemma .......though I _could_ be wrong...........

it is a quagmire, as you say - & something that I don't think we'd better hold our breath waiting for a definitive solution to!


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## baldilocks

However, since this quagmire exists we are still likely to get the questions. What should be our policy (so that we can all sing from the same hymn sheet) when we get these questions or similar? After all, we don't want to be accused of giving incorrect info which, if followed, could drop somebody into the proverbial.

My personal view is that we should stick with the line that we have been trying to convey - *Tourists can't work in any shape or form!* However we then come across the question about the author who is here researching/writing a book, what then? and I'm sure that, if we put our thinking caps on there are other similar instances. :confused2: :noidea:


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## NickZ

Why do people see grey with this issue?

If a person was working with a phone,fax machine and snail mail would anybody see grey? Why is the internet a quagmire? 

I'm sure right now somebody in an Indian call centre is helping somebody in the UK or the US. Does anybody doubt they're working in India?

I'm way too lazy to look but I bet their is a class of visa for artists. Which includes writers.


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> However, since this quagmire exists we are still likely to get the questions. What should be our policy (so that we can all sing from the same hymn sheet) when we get these questions or similar? After all, we don't want to be accused of giving incorrect info which, if followed, could drop somebody into the proverbial.
> 
> My personal view is that we should stick with the line that we have been trying to convey - *Tourists can't work in any shape or form!* However we then come across the question about the author who is here researching/writing a book, what then? and I'm sure that, if we put our thinking caps on there are other similar instances. :confused2: :noidea:


I don't know :confused2:

a tourist visa is for just that - being a tourist, although the 90 day Schengen visa does allow usage for attending business meetings

I think it's clear enough that you _*shouldn't*_ work on a 90 day visa - & I bet if (as I posted previously) you told immigration that you were using it for the purpose of book research they'd refuse it


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## xabiaxica

NickZ said:


> Why do people see grey with this issue?
> 
> If a person was working with a phone,fax machine and snail mail would anybody see grey? Why is the internet a quagmire?
> 
> I'm sure right now somebody in an Indian call centre is helping somebody in the UK or the US. Does anybody doubt they're working in India?
> 
> I'm way too lazy to look but I bet their is a class of visa for artists. Which includes writers.


we had a discussion about this a short while ago....http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/82799-artist-visa-health-care.html

we couldn't find any info that such a visa exists ..................


I don't see it as grey either - you're either working or you're on holiday


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## NickZ

I can't find it either. 

But this would seem to put the idea that working is okay to rest.

Visa



> "The "C" Schengen visa is a short-stay visa, valid for the period specified when applying for the visa.
> 
> If you wish to carry out an economic activity during your short stay, you will have to complete a series of specific formalities to obtain a work permit.
> 
> Important: It is not permitted to carry out an economic activity when travelling under a Type "C" Schengen visa which has been issued for private or family reasons, or for the purposes of tourism. Carrying out such an activity could lead to sanctions. "


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## jennyrainwater

*But really.. how do you?*

So I read to the end of this thread and searched around the forum and did not see in the end what is the suggest way for telecommuting from Spain. So I am hijacking this thread! ;p

My husband and I would like to set ourselves up in Spain (we are american citizens currently living in france).

We already have job offers back in the US that would let us work remotely as a back up in case we do not find work in Spain. We also have money saved up in case, that might be enough to meet their nonworking requirements.

Questions:
1. What kind of visa/what is the requirements to live in Spain but work remotely for a US company? I understand I would be paying Spainish taxes and need a job permit. Is there a job permit for contractors?
2. If we don't work at all what is the financial requirement?


Thanks in advance for your help!

- JR

P.S. Bonus question!

Some background, my grandfather was born in Spain and I have the prooving paperwork (I think ;p) so we are establishing ourselves there in order to apply for an EU passport after a year. Any advice on this as well would be super great. 

I know I can get it after a year but I am unclear how automatic it will be for my husband.


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## xabiaxica

jennyrainwater said:


> So I read to the end of this thread and searched around the forum and did not see in the end what is the suggest way for telecommuting from Spain. So I am hijacking this thread! ;p
> 
> My husband and I would like to set ourselves up in Spain (we are american citizens currently living in france).
> 
> We already have job offers back in the US that would let us work remotely as a back up in case we do not find work in Spain. We also have money saved up in case, that might be enough to meet their nonworking requirements.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. What kind of visa/what is the requirements to live in Spain but work remotely for a US company? I understand I would be paying Spainish taxes and need a job permit. Is there a job permit for contractors?
> 2. If we don't work at all what is the financial requirement?
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help!
> 
> - JR
> 
> P.S. Bonus question!
> 
> Some background, my grandfather was born in Spain and I have the prooving paperwork (I think ;p) so we are establishing ourselves there in order to apply for an EU passport after a year. Any advice on this as well would be super great.
> 
> I know I can get it after a year but I am unclear how automatic it will be for my husband.


:welcome:to Spain!!

from all I've read it's so much easier for you to set up in France than in Spain, that in your shoes I'd wait til you get that EU passport, & _then _move to Spain

you'd still need to prove that you have income & healthcare provision before you can register as resident, but once you've done that your husband can apply as your spouse

it's not automatic, but I don't think it's likely that he'd be refused as long as _you_ meet the criteria

come to think of it, you'd be getting a Spanish passport? then _*you*_ don't, afaik, need to do the proof thing like the rest of us EU citizens


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## jennyrainwater

Hi!

So you suggest if we can stay in France 5 years and get that passport then move to Spain? Or can I apply for my spanish/EU passport from France once I have been here a year? Don't I have to be a spanish resident for a year? I was considering renting a place in Spain and having dual residence, if that is possible.

We are welcome to living in either places. Though it would be nice to live in Spain and get to know that part of my lineage. But we can always do that later.

You mention proof of income and healthcare, so if I show income in the US (I switch my job to a company there). I just have to pay some taxes to Spain but I can get a resident visa?

Thanks again for your friendly reply,

JR


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## xabiaxica

jennyrainwater said:


> Hi!
> 
> So you suggest if we can stay in France 5 years and get that passport then move to Spain? Or can I apply for my spanish/EU passport from France once I have been here a year? Don't I have to be a spanish resident for a year? I was considering renting a place in Spain and having dual residence, if that is possible.
> 
> We are welcome to living in either places. Though it would be nice to live in Spain and get to know that part of my lineage. But we can always do that later.
> 
> You mention proof of income and healthcare, so if I show income in the US (I switch my job to a company there). I just have to pay some taxes to Spain but I can get a resident visa?
> 
> Thanks again for your friendly reply,
> 
> JR


An EU citizen has to show proof of income & healthcare - it's _*much *_more complicated for a non-EU citizen - your company would have to apply for a work/resident visa on your behalf

if you have a look at the 'forms etc etc.....' sticky thread near the top of the page you'll find links to discussions & articles about this, and also to different consulates - part of the problem is that different Spanish consulates seem to have different rules 

of course with a Spanish passport none of that would matter - you simply have the _right_ to live here.............


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## Karen58

xabiachica said:


> you're the OP - Original Poster
> the reason it might be simpler for you is that in certain circumstances, if you're Puerto Rican, you _might _ be able to claim Spanish citizenship by descent
> 
> you need to contact the Spanish Consulate to find out


Hi, 

If you need a base in Spain to start a company connected to yours, why not form a branch in Spain and employ someone to run it and you can visit and stay 3 months at any time.. is this viable? This must be a legal loophole I believe.. 
I am moving back to my house in Spain in September as a resident (am a Brit) and looking into internet based business opportunities which I shall register in Spain and pay taxes to Spain (they need every euro).
In the interim you can get your permanent residency sorted.
Just an idea
Karen


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## xabiaxica

Karen58 said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you need a base in Spain to start a company connected to yours, why not form a branch in Spain and employ someone to run it and you can visit and stay 3 months at any time.. is this viable? This must be a legal loophole I believe..
> I am moving back to my house in Spain in September as a resident (am a Brit) and looking into internet based business opportunities which I shall register in Spain and pay taxes to Spain (they need every euro).
> In the interim you can get your permanent residency sorted.
> Just an idea
> Karen


they can visit 90 days at a time regardless

no need to set up a company or look for a legal loophole


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## jennyrainwater

*We want to stay longer than that*



xabiachica said:


> they can visit 90 days at a time regardless
> 
> no need to set up a company or look for a legal loophole


Honestly we want to set up residency and stay more than 90 because we want to apply for citizenship after the first year (due to my grandfather's birthright).

While there we would like to work, one possibility is freelance.

*My question is what kind of visa I need for a visa to set up residency and work freelance?* I suppose you are saying I need to start a company to do freelance legally? So may need a business visa which I know might mean a significant investment?

Otherwise we would consider using our savings and going as visitors. Unless we find jobs there.
*
How much is required to just live there as visitors for a year?*


Thanks for your help!- S


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## xabiaxica

jennyrainwater said:


> Honestly we want to set up residency and stay more than 90 because we want to apply for citizenship after the first year (due to my grandfather's birthright).
> 
> While there we would like to work, one possibility is freelance.
> 
> *My question is what kind of visa I need for a visa to set up residency and work freelance?* I suppose you are saying I need to start a company to do freelance legally? So may need a business visa which I know might mean a significant investment?
> 
> Otherwise we would consider using our savings and going as visitors. Unless we find jobs there.
> *
> How much is required to just live there as visitors for a year?*
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help!- S


yes I understand & applaud that 

the problem we have is that different consulates give out different info - the very best thing you can do is contact the Spanish consulate local to you - you're in France? It has to be done in the country where you reside anyway - maybe the fact that they & you are already in Europe will make it easier :confused2:


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