# Email address for the Hacienda



## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

Hi, does anyone have an email address for the tax man, general inquiries. I have trawled their website and can't find one. I am getting conflicting answers from professionals re fiscal residency so decided to write to the tax man myself, hoping for an answer in writing rather than a phone conversation.
Thanks


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

For what region ? It doesn't have an email for head office only regional head offices.

On main page click on Direcciones y teléfonos;
then on next page; Delegaciones y Administraciones; ( This will be Provincial Offices and Administrations if using english )
next page choose region & click;
then choose a local office.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Isn't that like turkey's voting for Christmas


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

it's for Ibiza, all it seemed to give me was telephone numbers for the local office. What I am trying to get is an answer in writing but from the Uk, the best way I can think is email. 
I will have another look in a while once I have put my kids to bed.
Maybe the email address is missing on the English version??


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> Isn't that like turkey's voting for Christmas


I hope not. As I am not resident yet I would like to plan ahead, too many different answers for the pro's so I have nothing to loose from a general enqueiry. At least that is my thinking. Would be anonymous of course.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> I hope not. As I am not resident yet I would like to plan ahead, too many different answers for the pro's so I have nothing to loose from a general enqueiry. At least that is my thinking. Would be anonymous of course.


What exactly is the issue? The law is very clear as to what is meant by fiscal-residency.

(1) If you are in Spain for more than 6 months (185 days) in any calendar year
or
(2) Have your centre of interest in Spain (main house, family etc.)


and I think that's about it. 


Your specific situation might be more complex but those are the basic rules which can't be misinterpreted.

What it does allow for though, is that you can be considered (using the various laws) to be tax resident in the UK AND in Spain at the same time. In that instance the tax authorities will make a judgement based on the facts provided so that you will only be considered tax resident in one country.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> What exactly is the issue? The law is very clear as to what is meant by fiscal-residency. (1) If you are in Spain for more than 6 months (185 days) in any calendar year or (2) Have your centre of interest in Spain (main house, family etc.) and I think that's about it. Your specific situation might be more complex but those are the basic rules which can't be misinterpreted. What it does allow for though, is that you can be considered (using the various laws) to be tax resident in the UK AND in Spain at the same time. In that instance the tax authorities will make a judgement based on the facts provided so that you will only be considered tax resident in one country.


I agree, and I don't recall any questions which caused any confusion. Just to be pedantic though, it's 183 days not 185.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

ok, the kids going to school in Spain from September 2014, thus we don't qualify under the 183 day rule, the kids are young so don't need NIE's.

On there own website, the Hacienda have published in English-



An individual is resident in Spanish territory when any one of the following circumstances apply:

They have dependent not legally separated spouse and/or underage children who are usually resident in Spain. This latter situation accepts evidence to the contrary.

Agencia Tributaria - Residency issues



So it's not as clear cut as you may think, what is the evidence to the contrary?
Does the fact that my children start school in September make both myself and their mother resident even though we are still working and living in the UK?
So that is my question to them, and I would like an answer in writing. I have been told from a Spanish firm of Abogados and accountants that there is no reason for me to become fiscally resident in this situation. I am not so sure.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

CapnBilly said:


> I agree, and I don't recall any questions which caused any confusion. Just to be pedantic though, it's 183 days not 185.


and to be even more pedantic, like you I used to quote 183 days (or more than 182) but I was given a link to the law which clearly states 185 days so that is what I now quote. 

(It was somebody on here I think and they proved me wrong - I was very surprised as I always thought it was "most of your time in Spain" which is clearly more than 365/2 days = 183)


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

sorry, it's 183 days, see my link above


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

rewdan said:


> ok, the kids going to school in Spain from September 2014, thus we don't qualify under the 183 day rule, the kids are young so don't need NIE's.
> 
> On there own website, the Hacienda have published in English-
> 
> ...




Surely, if your children are going to school in Spain then Spain is their main residence. I also assume that one of the parents will be in Spain to look after them. I accept that you both may work in UK and separately live in UK for more than 6 months but your "centre of interest" is clearly Spain.

For the 183 day rule alone, I agree, you would not be considered tax resident for 2014. But then the other rule kicks in so maybe you are.

From the link you gave, it is clear that you are tax-resident by rules 2 and 3.

The fact that you work in UK has nothing to do with whether you are tax-resident here or not!

Also, our children DID need NIE's when they went to school.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> For what region ? It doesn't have an email for head office only regional head offices.
> 
> On main page click on Direcciones y teléfonos;
> then on next page; Delegaciones y Administraciones; ( This will be Provincial Offices and Administrations if using english )
> ...


would this be the right email address for my quest?

[email protected]


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

Rules 1 and 2 would not be of issue in my case, only 3 would. But it is the statement 'This latter situation accepts evidence to the contrary' that I am questioning.

My understanding is that your children would be of secondary school age, thus the NIE.

So, does anyone know the contrary evidence that is accepted, my kids could have a nanny and grand parents.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

rewdan said:


> Rules 1 and 2 would not be of issue in my case, only 3 would. But it is the statement 'This latter situation accepts evidence to the contrary' that I am questioning.
> 
> My understanding is that your children would be of secondary school age, thus the NIE.
> 
> So, does anyone know the contrary evidence that is accepted, my kids could have a nanny and grand parents.


my children were 5 & 8 when they started state school here - they needed NIEs

the schools in my area, certainly, ask for resident registration certificates - so they'll have NIEs


all of which is irrelevant - they will simply be resident here because they are at school here


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

my kids didn't need NIE's last year, they were 4 and 8 and went to school without. Whilst they maybe considered resident, what do you think the evidence to the contrary as published by the Hacienda could be that would not require me being resident?
I feel the only way I may get an answer is from the Hacienda itself


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> and to be even more pedantic, like you I used to quote 183 days (or more than 182) but I was given a link to the law which clearly states 185 days so that is what I now quote. (It was somebody on here I think and they proved me wrong - I was very surprised as I always thought it was "most of your time in Spain" which is clearly more than 365/2 days = 183)


I think that may have been me, but we were posting about driving licence IIRC, and I said the rules kick in after 185 days. You queried this and said it was 183 and I gave you a link to 818/2009 where it states 185 days. Tax is definitely 183 days and is also stated in a Real Decree. Why they have two different days I have no idea, but I am only the messenger


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> I think that may have been me, but we were posting about driving licence IIRC, and I said the rules kick in after 185 days. You queried this and said it was 183 and I gave you a link to 818/2009 where it states 185 days. Tax is definitely 183 days and is also stated in a Real Decree. Why they have two different days I have no idea, but I am only the messenger


what's your take on the OP's position re tax residency?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

This is the latest correspondence from a firm of abogados I have recieved, thus my questions on this tread


'There is no need to register that you are residents if you are in the country just because your children are at school especially when you are travelling back and forth out of the country. Obviously there will come a time when it will be necessary especially for the children when they are in secondary school and will require their own NIE Nos and be issued social security numbers.'

It was sent in an email on Friday but I need to be sure, thus the email to Hacienda idea.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

rewdan said:


> ok, the kids going to school in Spain from September 2014, thus we don't qualify under the 183 day rule, the kids are young so don't need NIE's. On there own website, the Hacienda have published in English- An individual is resident in Spanish territory when any one of the following circumstances apply: They have dependent not legally separated spouse and/or underage children who are usually resident in Spain. This latter situation accepts evidence to the contrary. Agencia Tributaria - Residency issues So it's not as clear cut as you may think, what is the evidence to the contrary? Does the fact that my children start school in September make both myself and their mother resident even though we are still working and living in the UK? So that is my question to them, and I would like an answer in writing. I have been told from a Spanish firm of Abogados and accountants that there is no reason for me to become fiscally resident in this situation. I am not so sure.


 I think the problem you will have is that they are looking for evidence to the contrary that you don't have your residence in Spain, because they assume that you do, because of the children living here. Generally, all tax authorities will only answer questions about your actual circumstances not hypothetical occurrences. So for example, you may work in the live in the UK during the week, but will you be in Spain at weekends, either together or you one week, your wife the next, and if that has happened, they will tell you your status, but if you ask what it would be if you did that, I don't think they would tell you, and even if they did, another may tell you differently. They certainly, IMHO, won't put it in writing, in the circumstances you describe. For one thing, what happens if there are changes in the way they interpret regulations. They won't commit themselves, and I don't think I would either. As I see it, you have to rely on professional advice Presumably you have that in writing. I think you have to be very careful, if you are trying to avoid being resident.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

& I'd be surprised if they reply to an email.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> I think the problem you will have is that they are looking for evidence to the contrary that you don't have your residence in Spain, because they assume that you do, because of the children living here. Generally, all tax authorities will only answer questions about your actual circumstances not hypothetical occurrences. So for example, you may work in the live in the UK during the week, but will you be in Spain at weekends, either together or you one week, your wife the next, and if that has happened, they will tell you your status, but if you ask what it would be if you did that, I don't think they would tell you, and even if they did, another may tell you differently. They certainly, IMHO, won't put it in writing, in the circumstances you describe. For one thing, what happens if there are changes in the way they interpret regulations. They won't commit themselves, and I don't think I would either. As I see it, you have to rely on professional advice Presumably you have that in writing. I think you have to be very careful, if you are trying to avoid being resident.


Totally agree, but it's worth a shot asking them. I am ahead of the game so it's a no risk situation, I just don't want to learn the bad news afterwards.
Just posted a question to Jo xxx. Do you think she could face reprisals as her kids went to school whilst her husband commuted back to the UK during her time in Spain?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> & I'd be surprised if they reply to an email.


It's all I have at the moment, the pro advice I am getting contradicts my understanding as well as most of the clued up people on the forum here. Thought it my be worth a try.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rewdan said:


> It's all I have at the moment, the pro advice I am getting contradicts my understanding as well as most of the clued up people on the forum here. Thought it my be worth a try.



I'll come on this thread now lol!!!!

Its my understanding that any moneys coming into spain must be declared. When my husband commuted, he was never in Spain for more than the 183 days a year - in fact he only ever came for long weekends a couple of times a month if that! I did a couple of tax returns while living there and declared the rental on our UK property, but I was also working in Spain and had an employment contract, which covered healthcare. As for the childrens school, husband paid that via the UK, direct debit. He declared it in the UK, but TBH, should I have declared it??? I dont know, so maybe I'm guilty of something?????????? 

That said, no one ever presented me with a tax bill, either in Spain or the UK

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

rewdan said:


> Totally agree, but it's worth a shot asking them. I am ahead of the game so it's a no risk situation, I just don't want to learn the bad news afterwards.
> Just posted a question to Jo xxx. Do you think she could face reprisals as her kids went to school whilst her husband commuted back to the UK during her time in Spain?


only if he actually financially supported them


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

oops


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

I think you need to be very careful about who you seek advice from. In my view sometimes abogados sometimes tell you what they think you want to hear. I've just advised somebody today, who has been resident for 7 years, but has a government pension, so no declareable income, who was advised by their abogados that they had to submit returns as non- residents and pay deemed income tax on their property. I mean pleasssse !.

I think this is such a specialist subject, you should seek advice for somebody like Blevins or similar on an issue such as this, although you'll only have one arm after you have been to see them.

I think the issue will turn on how much time you spend here, and what they will accept is anyone's guess. I think you probably need some precedence to have a fair idea. If for example, you spend one weekend a month, you may have a case, three you won't, but what about two. In other words, they may argue that two weekends is at least half your you available spare time. These are just my musings, which to be honest is how these things work. I once paid a top barrister a £1000 for half an hour (not personal or tax). He gave me his initial view at the start, then mused his way through the law, and ended up with a different view at the end.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

jojo said:


> I'll come on this thread now lol!!!! Its my understanding that any moneys coming into spain must be declared. When my husband commuted, he was never in Spain for more than the 183 days a year - in fact he only ever came for long weekends a couple of times a month if that! I did a couple of tax returns while living there and declared the rental on our UK property, but I was also working in Spain and had an employment contract, which covered healthcare. As for the childrens school, husband paid that via the UK, direct debit. He declared it in the UK, but TBH, should I have declared it??? I dont know, so maybe I'm guilty of something?????????? That said, no one ever presented me with a tax bill, either in Spain or the UK Jo xxx


Afraid you're understanding so not right Jo, if you are considered resident, it doesn't matter whether the money comes into this country or not. Based on your post I would have said he would have been considered resident by Hacienda. I think as you were working and declaring an income you wouldn't come up on their radar. Spain, like the UK collects tax in a self assessment basis, so It's your responsibility to submit a declaration. Unfortunately, the fact that they diidn't send you a bill is not an excuse they accept. If they pick you up, which is unlikely as I said, they can go back 4 years. If you look at your "account" on the Havienda website, they haven't yet processed the 2009 returns, they still show as pending, even though you have paid the tax due on the return.


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

I just don't know what to do. I will try emailing the Hacienda in the guise of (truth too)

' my kids are starting school in September 2014, I will be working in the Uk and commuting until 2015 when I will become full time resident in Spain, when do I need to make my first tax return?'

and see what they say. Was my previously posted email contact address for them the best one to try?


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> Afraid you're understanding so not right Jo, if you are considered resident, it doesn't matter whether the money comes into this country or not. Based on your post I would have said he would have been considered resident by Hacienda. I think as you were working and declaring an income you wouldn't come up on their radar. Spain, like the UK collects tax in a self assessment basis, so It's your responsibility to submit a declaration. Unfortunately, the fact that they diidn't send you a bill is not an excuse they accept. If they pick you up, which is unlikely as I said, they can go back 4 years. If you look at your "account" on the Havienda website, they haven't yet processed the 2009 returns, they still show as pending, even though you have paid the tax due on the return.


Keep your head down Jo!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

CapnBilly said:


> Afraid you're understanding so not right Jo, if you are considered resident, it doesn't matter whether the money comes into this country or not. Based on your post I would have said he would have been considered resident by Hacienda. I think as you were working and declaring an income you wouldn't come up on their radar. Spain, like the UK collects tax in a self assessment basis, so It's your responsibility to submit a declaration. Unfortunately, the fact that they diidn't send you a bill is not an excuse they accept. If they pick you up, which is unlikely as I said, they can go back 4 years. If you look at your "account" on the Havienda website, they haven't yet processed the 2009 returns, they still show as pending, even though you have paid the tax due on the return.


We've got two threads going here!! All i know is that we did as much as we could to get things right. We went to a Gestor who simply told us that my husband doesnt exist in Spain and to give me cash - which we knew wasnt right, so my husband spoke to his UK accountant, who said he should pay the school fees and declare them in the UK. I should take the rental on the UK house and declare it in Spain - which I did!!!

....... infact, if memory serves, the Gestor did make "noises" about my husband not living with me - maybe he wanted us to imply that we were not together????? I dont know, but we did everything we could to be legal, afterall, at the time, we were planning to spend the rest of our lives in Spain and to move husbands business there once the recession had passed. So we needed to get it right

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rewdan said:


> Keep your head down Jo!


I need to point out that I dont approve of, or knowingly practice tax evasion lol!!!! Taxes are for the good of everyone. I may not agree with how its "divvied" out, but the basic economics need to be in place and those who try to evade deliberately arent role models of mine!

Jo xxx


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

then own up lol!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rewdan said:


> then own up lol!!!


eh??

Jo xxx


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

well I agree with CapnBilly that your hubby was Fiscally resident in Spain, albeit without your knowledge. The dilemma you face is whether to keep quiet and try to disappear from the screen, own up and pay what is due including interest (if anything) or wait to be caught and face fines and interest. 
I have no idea what I would do in your situation but I wish you luck in whatever you road you take.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

jojo said:


> I need to point out that I dont approve of, or knowingly practice tax evasion lol!!!! Taxes are for the good of everyone. I may not agree with how its "divvied" out, but the basic economics need to be in place and those who try to evade deliberately arent role models of mine! Jo xxx


 Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did, but I think I have posted before that the advice from gestors is pretty iffy sometimes. But, I only know that because I am pretty familiar with the rules. If you're not, then it's a minefield. I sometimes despair of the advice people receive. I personally have received advice that was completely and utterly incorrect. The reason I tend to post and correct sometimes, is that I am conscious that many people read these threads, weeks, months and years afterwards, and it has a great reputation for the quality of information it provides.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rewdan said:


> well I agree with CapnBilly that your hubby was Fiscally resident in Spain, albeit without your knowledge. The dilemma you face is whether to keep quiet and try to disappear from the screen, own up and pay what is due including interest (if anything) or wait to be caught and face fines and interest.
> I have no idea what I would do in your situation but I wish you luck in whatever you road you take.


There is no dilemma, I actually still have two bank accounts in Spain (Husband doesnt), so any moneys owing could be accessed. However, since my husbands accounts/taxes have been addressed in the UK, any money owed has already been paid and presumably would be dealt with by the double taxation thing. I've no doubt that his accountant wont have left a stone unturned (he's more anal than my husband!)

My own personal tax owed, has already been addressed as far as I'm concerned anyway. I was told it was zero, I was also paying tax when I had contracted employment and I declared my UK income. 

That said, what isnt mentioned is the amount earned by OH during the said period, or the amount he paid. 

But I repeat, I dont approve of, or knowingly practice tax evasion!

Jo


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

....... Interestingly, my husband is actually doing some business in Spain at the moment - he's not there in person, but is doing some consultancy work and selling some equipment - his accountant is advising him and its all legal and above board!

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

CapnBilly said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did, but I think I have posted before that the advice from gestors is pretty iffy sometimes. But, I only know that because I am pretty familiar with the rules. If you're not, then it's a minefield. I sometimes despair of the advice people receive. I personally have received advice that was completely and utterly incorrect. The reason I tend to post and correct sometimes, is that I am conscious that many people read these threads, weeks, months and years afterwards, and it has a great reputation for the quality of information it provides.


I know and thanks, theres only so much you can do! and like I say, when we moved to Spain, it was our intention of moving my husbands business over - having a branch in Spain and one in the UK. That was all being arranged by our lovely abogado, Alejandro and the accountant in the UK. However, just after we arrived, the recession started (almost to the day!), so we put the brakes on. Husband decided to stay in the UK to keep the business afloat and the children and I continued with the planned move. It was at that point we spoke to a gestor (recommended by Alejandro), sorted out our finances, even got advice on the forum and did what we did - with good intentions. I dont believe we did anything wrong - at worst, we didnt do a paper chase!

Jo xxx


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