# FRench Immobillier



## gprit

Just a gripe!!! Just WHAT do they do? We are planning to either buy some land and build a new house or find a suitable existing house that we could adapt to a more contemporary look.

I have sent umpteen requests to agents via websites to ask for more details, eg co-ordinates so I can look around on Google Earth before wasting time and cost diving to location......and ROOMPLANS to see if I can adapt. Invariably 90% of them do not reply, even after reminders. And as for surrounding services like schools etc.....I have never seen one!!

Given the price the charge they provide very little 'service'!


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## Crabtree

I do not think you understand how immobiliers work in France.They get their income from the buyer.This means that you have to sign a contract with them then they will usually take you to the premises And beware getting "details" THis could result in you being chased by an immobilier who provided those details if you go with another There could well be "small print" in the email also


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## Befuddled

I agree with the OP. They do nothing to make the buyer's task easier. They take the most dreadful photos, leaving unwashed dishes in the kitchen sink, unmade beds, and crap clutter everywhere. They don't provide floor plans or even basic measurements. They won't give much of a clue as to location because they are frightened you will bypass them and do a deal with the owner direct. If you want to see the place they will take you there but they could save a fortune in time and fuel by letting you shortlist to your requirements. So many places I have been taken to by agents were a total waste of effort. I knew as we drove up I didn't want the area. Too close to a pig or poultry unit for example. One place I was taken to the farmer next door had right of way to take his machinery right past the front door. No mention of any of this in the details.


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## LoriEleanor

Couldn't agree more. We've been looking for a house to purchase for the last 13 months. It is clearly a seller's market. 95% of online inquiries are never replied to by immobiliers. I find that if I pick up the phone and call them, I get replies. They don't always answer the phone call, but they usually call me back. And no, they will NEVER give you the location of a house. They normally won't even tell you what part of town it is located in. As said, sharing that could save a fortune in wasted gasoline and wasted time (on everyones part). 

Nearly everything we have seen is in a dreadful state and/or in a horrible location (beside Port-O-Potty distributor, beside manufacturing plant, literally ON major highway, house built on hill and now has major structure cracks all over it, house was totallly destroyed by tenants and owner trying to sell without repairing it, etc.). And we have also commented, shaking our heads as to why a seller cannot be bothered to tidy up even the smallest bit - interior or exterior. Garden looking like it hadn't been tended to in years. Interior covered in mold and generally filthy.

Quite frustrating.

And, as said, you won't find any of this out until you make an appointment with the agent to see the house. Big waste of time.


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## gprit

Yes...I would have thought that during COVID, remote virtual viewing via Google Earth would be standard to see surroundings p- and as stated to save time and fuel costs. I mentioned we want to buy land or existing property in this same area). Our own house in the Dordogne is for sale both from my private website and via an agent. I insisted the agent put MY floorplans on their site, but they have produced just one (completely unsuitable) viewer since March. In that time I have had several (serious viewers) from my own website, where I also put Google earth link.
Beynac house for Sale


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## Bevdeforges

As mentioned above, it's clear you don't understand how (real) estate agents here work. No rational agent will divulge the location of a property to a potential customer until they have obtained a signature on the paperwork, agreeing to pay the fee should the customer wind up actually buying the house. And I've seen far too many houses here in the area that sport an agency sign right next to a hand lettered sign with a mobile phone number that apparently belongs to the owner, trying to offer a potential buy the chance to avoid the agency fee altogether.

As to the state of the house (in pictures or on visitation), that has long been a "cultural difference" here. When we were briefly looking to move house several years back, we saw one house with a couple of broken window panes that no one bothered to either fix or to cover up with a piece of cardboard. The idea in some areas is that most buyers then spend mega-euros to fix a place up the way they want it to be - so it's a waste of money to paint, repair or otherwise spruce up a place if all that effort will just be knocked out, replaced and/or painted over once the new folks get possession. Other times, houses on the market are being sold because the owner has died and none of the kids are interested in taking on the house because they don't like the location or find the place too "old fashioned" for their needs and desires. Easier to sell, split the money with any siblings and go find a newer, more modern house in an area closer to work.

The fact that you have a private listing of the property with full location information available on your own website tells the agency that you're looking to stiff the agency out of their fee. So no, they're no going to put much effort into finding potential buyers for your place. Certainly not if they're almost guaranteed a big argument over whether or not the agency fee will have to be paid.


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## gprit

"it's clear you don't understand how (real) estate agents here work. No rational agent will divulge the location of a property to a potential customer until they have obtained a signature on the paperwork, agreeing to pay the fee should the customer wind up actually buying the house. " I DO understand how they work and_ I have no problem signing a piece of paper that ties me to a commission should I buy that land/property about which I am asking - _which I have done with the few agencies to respond.

When agencies produce good quality sites and information then they would not need to fear individual competition. 
The remuneration issue is clear in my contract with the agent. THEY insist they are the professionals so it's up to them to prove it and produce a sale first....in my opinion, which may differ to others(!)

Maybe it's the weather I am having a moan!!


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## Lalla

gprit said:


> "it's clear you don't understand how (real) estate agents here work. No rational agent will divulge the location of a property to a potential customer until they have obtained a signature on the paperwork, agreeing to pay the fee should the customer wind up actually buying the house. " I DO understand how they work and_ I have no problem signing a piece of paper that ties me to a commission should I buy that land/property about which I am asking - _which I have done with the few agencies to respond.
> 
> When agencies produce good quality sites and information then they would not need to fear individual competition.
> The remuneration issue is clear in my contract with the agent. THEY insist they are the professionals so it's up to them to prove it and produce a sale first....in my opinion, which may differ to others(!)
> 
> Maybe it's the weather I am having a moan!!


I agree that if they could at least provide a comprehensive set of reasonable quality photos covering every room, they'd stand a better chance of making a sale, or of not wasting everyone's time. The 360° virtual tours that a few use are great. The funniest I've seen was a pic of a clotheshorse and ironing board against a white wall 🤣. Or ones taken in the dark cos they can't be bothered to open the shutters.


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## Lalla

gprit said:


> Yes...I would have thought that during COVID, remote virtual viewing via Google Earth would be standard to see surroundings p- and as stated to save time and fuel costs. I mentioned we want to buy land or existing property in this same area). Our own house in the Dordogne is for sale both from my private website and via an agent. I insisted the agent put MY floorplans on their site, but they have produced just one (completely unsuitable) viewer since March. In that time I have had several (serious viewers) from my own website, where I also put Google earth link.
> Beynac house for Sale


I've become fairly adept at locating properties on Google Earth from clues given in the description or the photos. The number of hits I get nowadays where I've zoomed right in at street level is becoming uncanny! 😄


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## LoriEleanor

Lalla said:


> I've become fairly adept at locating properties on Google Earth from clues given in the description or the photos. The number of hits I get nowadays where I've zoomed right in at street level is becoming uncanny! 😄


Me too. Unfortunately, it won't work every time. Too many agencies seem to go to extremes to offer only the most basic info. And I cannot tell you how many times I've read the now infamous: situé dans un quartier très recherché - uh huh, yeah right. Some have actually been directly across from a huge HLM housing project...


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## Lalla

LoriEleanor said:


> Me too. Unfortunately, it won't work every time. Too many agencies seem to go to extremes to offer only the most basic info. And I cannot tell you how many times I've read the now infamous: situé dans un quartier très recherché - uh huh, yeah right. Some have actually been directly across from a huge HLM housing project...


Sure, it's not 100% doable. But yes, I've been able to rule out ones that otherwise looked quite attractive given what I've seen around it. And indeed been pleasantly surprised. 😊 It's helped me somewhat with narrowing down locations. It's good to hear forum contributers' views on places too.


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## gprit

Seems like there is a need /opportunity for a UK style agency!!!


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## Lalla

gprit said:


> Seems like there is a need /opportunity for a UK style agency!!!


I kind of wonder why it hasn't happened 🤔


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## Crabtree

UK agents make their money from the sellers and offering extras to the buyers such as mortgage brokerage cheaper legal fees etc so they have an incentive to flog houses
French estate agents only get their money from the buyers so they will not wat to deal with any that are not committed to buy with them


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## suein56

gprit said:


> Seems like there is a need /opportunity for a UK style agency!!!


But there are still some : Leggett for example


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## gprit

"UK agents make their money from the sellers and offering extras to the buyers such as mortgage brokerage cheaper legal fees etc so they have an incentive to flog houses
French estate agents only get their money from the buyers so they will not want to deal with any that are not committed to buy with them "
....but there is absolutely no reason WHY they could not offer mortgages/Insurances etc to the buyer, rather than the buyer organizing themselves. To me that is common sense and opportunity!


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## Befuddled

And if you look around the expat sites you will find a very mixed bag of opinions about Leggett. When they started up there was a long running recruitment drive. Too many newly arrived expats wanting to earn a bit of pocket money without having any training or experience caused a fair bit of disappointment.
Admittedly I am not a great fan of estate agents at all. I have always done my own selling and managed to get the asking price. It ain't rocket science these days with internet, etc.


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## BackinFrance

gprit said:


> "UK agents make their money from the sellers and offering extras to the buyers such as mortgage brokerage cheaper legal fees etc so they have an incentive to flog houses
> French estate agents only get their money from the buyers so they will not want to deal with any that are not committed to buy with them "
> ....but there is absolutely no reason WHY they could not offer mortgages/Insurances etc to the buyer, rather than the buyer organizing themselves. To me that is common sense and opportunity!


There are other qualifications required for offering mortgages.


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## gprit

BackinFrance said:


> There are other qualifications required for offering mortgages.


Yes of course - but UK agents do not THEMSELVES offer these - they use qualified brokers - immobiliers could do the same.


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## Bevdeforges

gprit said:


> ....but there is absolutely no reason WHY they could not offer mortgages/Insurances etc to the buyer, rather than the buyer organizing themselves. To me that is common sense and opportunity!


The way things are organized here it's the banks that you normally deal with for mortgages and insurance. The French aren't that keen on "professionals" earning a bit here and a bit there on arranging services that are not part of their profession. 

And Leggett (as well as other British estate agents doing business here in France) are seen as catering to their home market - and collecting the excess fees to justify themselves. 

OK, in recent years there seems to be more estate agencies offering sellers an "exclusive" contract to sell their homes - but these are generally of limited duration, and if the agent brings the seller an offer at the asking price or above, the seller has to take it. The rules of the game here are simply different.


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## NOB3125

We must be very lucky newcomers but we had no problem with the pictures on agglomeration sites such as Green-Acres - though as someone mentioned they never show the surrounding neighborhood. We had an easier search, too, because we wanted an apartment.
But, in particular, the agent we worked with was absolutely wonderful, and must have come from a different planet. It was quite an adjustment to have to deal with different agents for every single property, but when we narrowed down to our favorite, the agent showed us the property numerous times, helped us find an english-speaking notaire (we had one in addition to the seller), and AFTER the contract was signed helped arrange a cleaner for the property and (while we were back in the USA) went to the property to let IKEA make a large delivery to leave inside.
We are in Orleans, so being in a bigger place may help? Anyway, our experience could not have been better. It probably helped that we are old and obviously needed help! Vive la France.


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## BackinFrance

NOB3125 said:


> We must be very lucky newcomers but we had no problem with the pictures on agglomeration sites such as Green-Acres - though as someone mentioned they never show the surrounding neighborhood. We had an easier search, too, because we wanted an apartment.
> But, in particular, the agent we worked with was absolutely wonderful, and must have come from a different planet. It was quite an adjustment to have to deal with different agents for every single property, but when we narrowed down to our favorite, the agent showed us the property numerous times, helped us find an english-speaking notaire (we had one in addition to the seller), and AFTER the contract was signed helped arrange a cleaner for the property and (while we were back in the USA) went to the property to let IKEA make a large delivery to leave inside.
> We are in Orleans, so being in a bigger place may help? Anyway, our experience could not have been better. It probably helped that we are old and obviously needed help! Vive la France.


You are not the only American member of this forum who did not have a problem. We had members through here who have easily bought property, either as a holiday home or as a permanent residence. We even had someone through here fairly recently visited just to scout areas, but found a property they loved in a location they loved and Although promptly bought it. anticipated Although they bought much earlier than anticipated, they said they were absolutely delighted and they even managed to finalize the purchase from back in the US.

Though I suspect Brits have other expectations and are very price conscious.


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## NOB3125

BackinFrance said:


> You are not the only American member of this forum who did not have a problem. We had members through here who have easily bought property, either as a holiday home or as a permanent residence. We even had someone through here fairly recently visited just to scout areas, but found a property they loved in a location they loved and Although promptly bought it. anticipated Although they bought much earlier than anticipated, they said they were absolutely delighted and they even managed to finalize the purchase from back in the US.
> 
> Though I suspect Brits have other expectations and are very price conscious.


Our real nightmare was finally finding a bank. BNP-Paribus was a life-saver for us, but only in 1 of the paris branches. But the whole banking thing - as you know - makes the real estate system seem user-friendly. We were pretty price-consious ourselves, but I understand our US salaries appear a good bit higher than those in Europe. I say "appear" because we have expenses a European never even considers. The price we pay for low taxes is a very high price.


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## Crabtree

Back in France raises an important point when he says that Brits have other expectations and are very price conscious.
Unfortunately some are time wasters others want something for not very much and many of them believe that the French are put on earth to rip the plucky Brits off even though they desperately want to move to France.
And of course things are far more regulated in France especially around finance and credit but I am sure that if a sale could not go through because of a mortgage problem an immobilier might point you in the general direction of a "courtier" but of course if an individual does not meet the requirements they do not meet the requirements.


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## Bevdeforges

Crabtree makes a very good point here. You first of all need to be able to cast aside your expectations and assumptions about how an immobilier, a banker, a notaire or whoever is "supposed" to work, and you need an ability to roll with the punches and be ready to adjust as necessary to deal with the new system. Who knows, you might even learn something in the process!


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## gprit

so may an immobilier/bank etc!!!


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## Bevdeforges

gprit said:


> so may an immobilier/bank etc!!!


However who is more likely to actually change how they do things based on what they learn?


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## BackinFrance

I think gprit needs to bear in mind that an French real estate agent isn't likely to waste his or her time and money driving around the countryside looking for suitable properties, taking photos and measurements unless he or she can be certain that he is a serious buyer and he or she can be certain of a sale. This is even more the case in areas of France where prices are relatively very low.


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## Bevdeforges

Actually, I wonder who does the photos that do appear in those online listing sites. Since you often find the same photos on the various agency sites, I tend to suspect that they use whatever photos the seller provides. Unless, of course, the seller is granting an "exclusive" to a single agency for some period of time.


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## gprit

@BackinFrance 
THAT is the job of an immobilier - and it is not FOR the buyer it is to ENTICE a buyer. When one sells a property one has to provide basics like good photos and room plans/measurements. HOW ELSE is someone remote supposed to judge whether the location/layout it suitable??? In these times it is illogical to make an appointment to view only to know as soon as you see the surroundings that it is not suitable. They get paid enough upon a sale - it should be in their interest to provide as much infortmation as possible/as is needed..


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## BackinFrance

Well, yes, only agents who have an exclusive listing, but the photos are sometimes made available to the owner once the exclusivity comes to an end. Round here, where property is expensive and sells well most agents will take photos even if the property is not listed exclusively '


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## BackinFrance

gprit said:


> @BackinFrance
> THAT is the job of an immobilier - and it is not FOR the buyer it is to ENTICE a buyer. When one sells a property one has to provide basics like good photos and room plans/measurements. HOW ELSE is someone remote supposed to judge whether the location/layout it suitable??? In these times it is illogical to make an appointment to view only to know as soon as you see the surroundings that it is not suitable. They get paid enough upon a sale - it should be in their interest to provide as much infortmation as possible/as is needed..


Well you are clearly mistaken because it isn't happening for you.


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## gprit

You disagree then?I am sure most readers WILL agree. They need a kick up the backside!!!


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## BackinFrance

I always feel sorry for the horses, even more so during extremely hot weather, and even more so because I know there is more hot weather heading our way.


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## BackinFrance

gprit said:


> You disagree then?I am sure most readers WILL agree. They need a kick up the backside!!!


Strange as it may seem, I had some suggestions for you as to how best to proceed, but given this response I will now keep them to myself and leave you to it. IMHO you deserve no help at all


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## gprit

I am not asking for help - I am just having a moan about the lazy immobiliers who provide little or no information for a lot of sale commisssion!
I'm not getting into a slanging match - you have your viewpoint I have mine.

Not responding further.


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## BackinFrance

I always feel sorry for the horses.


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## conky2

I'm locking this thread due to to the incorrect use of Capital letters , the atrocious spelling, the unnecessary introduction of horses and the fact that the two main protagonists have each withdrawn from the 'debate'.


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## gprit

I would question the use of Capital letters - THREE words..
As for atrocious spelling - where?


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## EuroTrash

Ooh a thread about horses. I'll get on my high one, shall I. Any excuse...
I've kept out of this thread because I never felt inclined to use an immobilier. It's perfectly possible to find and buy a property without touching one. I'm a bit of a control freak and I try to cut out middlemen wherever possible and avoid relying on other people because when I have, I have frequently ended up feeling that they've done half a job and I could have done better myself. You could say I have low expectations. I'm not surprised that folk are whingeing about immos if they went along with high expectations. But I do think it's a mistake, or perhaps just naive/unaware, to have fixed expectations about what to expect from a profession or service in one country, based on how that profession or service operates in a different country. I think when you try something for the first time, in this case dealing with French immos, you need to look at it as a new experience and test the waters, find out what they do and what they don't do, and take it from there. Because I don't suppose French immos give a stuff if a few foreigners here and there are left underwhelmed by the service they provide, they're not going to change, so either you adapt your expectations or you keep getting steamed up and ranting which is bad for the blood pressure.


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## rickjames8

BackinFrance said:


> We even had someone through here fairly recently visited just to scout areas, but found a property they loved in a location they loved and Although promptly bought it. anticipated Although they bought much earlier than anticipated, they said they were absolutely delighted and they even managed to finalize the purchase from back in the US.


Hey - I think you might be referring to our Apirl trip! A word of note, we were able to finalize the offer agreement from the US, not the sale. We just signed the Compromis on July 5th, with an aim to move in on Aug 31st. We have a call with our lender today to talk through some issues. I was actually coming here to search for threads that might be of help with some of the questions we have. I am keeping a journal of our experience and will post it here when the saga is done.


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## rickjames8

Bevdeforges said:


> Actually, I wonder who does the photos that do appear in those online listing sites.


Yes! I often joked with my wife that I wanted to create a site called "Best of Leboncoin Real Estate photos". Sometimes a listing has just 3 photos: One of a windowless side of the house, one of half a shrub, and one of a corner of a white room with nothing in it. Coming from the US where the photos are given such a high importance, it's comical to see. Like, who would ever look at some of these listings and book an appointment?

Maybe I'll start a thread here and just drop in my favorites as I find them. Because, yes, even though we've bought our house, I still like to browse listings.


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## BackinFrance

rickjames8 said:


> Hey - I think you might be referring to our Apirl trip! A word of note, we were able to finalize the offer agreement from the US, not the sale. We just signed the Compromis on July 5th, with an aim to move in on Aug 31st. We have a call with our lender today to talk through some issues. I was actually coming here to search for threads that might be of help with some of the questions we have. I am keeping a journal of our experience and will post it here when the saga is done.


I don't know whether it was you, but perhaps it was, shough your trip seems a bit more recent. Anyway, congrats on your purchase.

I think it’s really important to find an area you like, then ideally to see what agents have suitable properties. It can also be very useful to approach an agency that appeals to you and displays decent photos, and ask them if they can assist you in your search.

At best I would only use Leboncoin to search for a rental.


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## EuroTrash

Silly comparison coming up, see what you think. Shop window and market stall displays.
In France, patisseries and florists and others often have amazing window displays, fantastic works of art, often on a theme, with not a price tag in sight. Some towns you can get pleasure out of just lèche-vitrining from one to the next, even if you're not in the market for any of it. Even market stalls tend to be set out very attractively. 

In the UK, displays like that are the exception, you get them in upmarket shopping areas but that's about it. Mostly shop windows are far more functional, they're for showing what the shop sells and the prices. Bakers might shove a few cakes in the window with price tags on. And that's all you expect, you don't think "how dowdy", until you go to another country and see what can be done if shops latch onto the concept.

And at the end of the day, if you want to buy a cake you'll find one you like and buy it, regardless of window dressing. Same with houses Window dressing is for window shoppers and it's fun, but would you buy something you didn't want just because it looked nice in the window? or conversely, if you know what you're looking for, does it matter if it's prettied up in frills and bows?

Actually I remember being quite embarrassed once when a friend from the UK was visiting me, in Sommières it was, and she kept stopping in busy streets and taking photos of shop windows. There was one in particular with an intricate castle scene made entirely of coloured macarons, that she just loved.


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## Befuddled

BackinFrance said:


> I think gprit needs to bear in mind that an French real estate agent isn't likely to waste his or her time and money driving around the countryside looking for suitable properties, taking photos and measurements unless he or she can be certain that he is a serious buyer and he or she can be certain of a sale. This is even more the case in areas of France where prices are relatively very low.


A French agent most certainly *should* take time to produce good photos at the very least. A floor plan with basic measurements would show true professionalism. It would save him plenty of time and fuel because it would allow the buyer to shortlist the possibles. Other little gems like mobile network coverage and/or broadband availability are often taken for granted these days but often lacking in some areas.


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## Lalla

Bevdeforges said:


> Actually, I wonder who does the photos that do appear in those online listing sites. Since you often find the same photos on the various agency sites, I tend to suspect that they use whatever photos the seller provides. Unless, of course, the seller is granting an "exclusive" to a single agency for some period of time.


Sounds like some may be doing even less work for the money if the fee doesn't include a set of professional photos.


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