# UK pensioner non-resident healthcare in Spain



## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

I know this has been covered many times here but I need a link to any recent information on this subject from a reliable source. I cannot seem to find a statement of fact to say non-resident pensioners are not covered for state healthcare in Spain.

The reason for this is that I have a 72 year old friend from the UK who owns two houses here (one of which he lets out for holiday rentals) and lives here for large stretches of time but is not registered as a resident - he ignores the 90 day rule and refuses to become resident.

I told him that, as he is not registered as a resident, if he needs health care here he is not covered by the Spanish state health system (except for emergencies using an EHIC card). He will not believe me and insists that, as a UK pensioner, he is entitled to state healthcare here. He says the rules have recently been changed on this.

I cannot seem to convince him and he has challenged me to prove it. Apart from wanting to prove I am right I am concerned should he become ill. Also, if he tries to get treated with an EHIC card and it is discovered that he has been here for more than 90 days and is technically resident will they honour the EHIC card.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> I know this has been covered many times here but I need a link to any recent information on this subject from a reliable source. I cannot seem to find a statement of fact to say non-resident pensioners are not covered for state healthcare in Spain.
> 
> The reason for this is that I have a 72 year old friend from the UK who owns two houses here (one of which he lets out for holiday rentals) and lives here for large stretches of time but is not registered as a resident - he ignores the 90 day rule and refuses to become resident.
> 
> ...


He can only have full access to the health system here if he is resident with an S1 activated. Someone has to pay for it - & no-one is paying for it if he doesn't have an S1.

You are correct that his EHIC (which if acquired by him fraudulently giving a UK address is invalid, in any case) is quite likely to be refused if it is discovered that he actually lives here. Either Spain will refuse to accept it, or the UK will refuse to pay. 

None of that has recently changed. What has changed is that if he were a registered resident of Spain, with an S1 activated for healthcare, he'd still be entitled to full healthcare in the UK. So best of both worlds that way.

At the moment, he isn't legally entitled to full healthcare anywhere, strictly speaking.

Maybe this will help Living in Spain | Healthcare in Spain

It says if you get a state pension from the UK you have to apply for an S1 to access healthcare here

This explains what the EHIC is for http://healthcareinspain.eu/visiting-spain/#ehic


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> He can only have full access to the health system here if he is resident with an S1 activated. Someone has to pay for it - & no-one is paying for it if he doesn't have an S1.
> 
> You are correct that his EHIC (which if acquired by him fraudulently giving a UK address is invalid, in any case) is quite likely to be refused if it is discovered that he actually lives here. Either Spain will refuse to accept it, or the UK will refuse to pay.
> 
> ...



I know that is all true but I can't seem to convince him.

The trouble is that if you follow that flowchart for him it just says 'apply for an S1 form. 

I was hoping for somewhere that said that you need to apply for an S1 form but you will not get one if you are not a registered resident in Spain. 

I cannot seem to find that anywhere. He thinks he can get free healthcare when he is UK and also when he is Spain without doing anything. I told him the recent change he had read about referred to his UK treatment if he were a Spanish resident. 

The arguments between us are getting quite heated on this - hence my desire to find some proof. He still has property in UK and spends about half his time in each place.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> I know this has been covered many times here but I need a link to any recent information on this subject from a reliable source. I cannot seem to find a statement of fact to say non-resident pensioners are not covered for state healthcare in Spain.
> 
> The reason for this is that I have a 72 year old friend from the UK who owns two houses here (one of which he lets out for holiday rentals) and lives here for large stretches of time but is not registered as a resident - he ignores the 90 day rule and refuses to become resident.
> 
> ...


He's claiming that he is eligible and it's up to him to prove it. He has attempted to reverse the burden of proof which is unreasonable - anyway you are unlikely to find a statement of fact of who _isn't_ eligible for healthcare. 

If I were you I wouldn't bother - it's his lookout. 

But I know what you mean - it's nice to be right.:boxing:


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Have you mentioned to him that he should be paying income tax here too?


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

jimenato said:


> He's claiming that he is eligible and it's up to him to prove it. He has attempted to reverse the burden of proof which is unreasonable - anyway you are unlikely to find a statement of fact of who _isn't_ eligible for healthcare.
> 
> If I were you I wouldn't bother - it's his lookout.
> 
> But I know what you mean - it's nice to be right.:boxing:


I know what you mean about being right but I would hate him to get ill and not be able to get treatment. Saying 'I told you so' would not give me much satisfaction if that happened.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> I know that is all true but I can't seem to convince him.
> 
> The trouble is that if you follow that flowchart for him it just says 'apply for an S1 form.
> 
> ...


This says apply for an S1 as well https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-spain, but I doubt you'll find anything which says you can't get healthcare without it

If he's spending at least as much time in the UK as here, then he's probably going to be fine, anyway 

Although Spain considers him to be resident after 90 days, the UK doesn't consider him to be non-resident unless he's out of the UK for more than 6 months a year., so might well (probably would) honour the EHIC use. 

The proof will come if he becomes ill. Spain will give him any treatment he needs, including hospital referral but not surgery unless it's urgent to save his life - up until such time as he is considered to be resident & they will then tell him to pay up or return to the UK.


I don't suppose you could get him to speak to the DWP?


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> This says apply for an S1 as well https://www.gov.uk/guidance/healthcare-in-spain, but I doubt you'll find anything which says you can't get healthcare without it
> 
> If he's spending at least as much time in the UK as here, then he's probably going to be fine, anyway
> 
> ...


I doubt it. He is so convinced he is right. I just hope he doesn't find out the hard way.

There are so many Brits living near us who have houses here that they live in in the winter and let out in the summer while they go back to UK. 

Most of them are not registered as residents. They are not on the padron. And a lot of them drive their UK registered cars while here. They are not even aware that they are breaking the rules and, like my friend, assume they will be seen by a doctor if they are ill.


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes, we know more Pensioners here who should be resident, but aren't - than those, like us, who are !!! If you get my gist !!

They would all fulfill the S1 criteria.....

I think that it's more to do with the tax system ! They all have houses here and/or houses in the UK & probably considerable savings.

I couldnt sleep at night - if, my health- care wasn't covered !


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Allie-P said:


> Yes, we know more Pensioners here who should be resident, but aren't - than those, like us, who are !!! If you get my gist !!
> 
> They would all fulfill the S1 criteria.....
> 
> ...


And if they were told that they are no different from benefit cheats, fraudulent claimants, stealing from the rest of the honest people, no doubt they'd be offended.
They probably moan about immigrants to the UK who cheat and disobey the rules...


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes, mrypg9, and none of them are learning Spanish, teehee 

In fact, I am the only Pensioner in our circle....who is making the effort. Although, I will never be fluent - at least, I am having a go !!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Shop em!!!!!!!


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

To be fair, as I said, I don't think a lot of them realise they are breaking the rules. 

They see everyone else doing it and think it is ok. They think because they are in the EU they can stay as long as they like without registering. They also don't realise that, by not registering on the padron, their local council is losing money because they do not count towards the number of people living here.

No-one ever seems to get prosecuted for being here illegally. The only time they realise there is a problem is if they become ill.

Last summer I had a blackout and was unconscious for about half an hour. Our neighbour called an ambulance to the house. The first thing the ambulance man wanted was my SIP card. Luckily my husband knew where it was in my handbag.

What would have happened if I hadn't had a SIP card I do not know. Would they have asked my husband for a credit card to pay for the ambulance and my treatment?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

DunWorkin said:


> To be fair, as I said, I don't think a lot of them realise they are breaking the rules.
> 
> They see everyone else doing it and think it is ok. They think because they are in the EU they can stay as long as they like without registering. They also don't realise that, by not registering on the padron, their local council is losing money because they do not count towards the number of people living here.
> 
> ...



Not if you lived in Andalucia, where you'd get at least the initial treatment free. Not sure what would happen afterwards but you'd certainly be asked for your ID details, passport p/copy plus address in the UK. 
That's what happened to the step - daughter of a friend I took to Emergency at the CdS Hospital in Marbella (She was seen within twenty minutes and her Mum bitterly complained that the doctor who treated her didn't speak English...my friend sensibly divorced the silly woman shortly after returning from their not very enjoyable holiday).
I honestly don't understand how these people can claim they don't know the rules - I'm charitably assuming that they are not all dim. Surely they read the British language press here. Surely someone must have pointed out that they are disobeying/breaking laws.
My guess is that like many Brits and Northern Europeans they have a sense of entitlement and some perhaps are just plain greedy.
It's not just Brits. An American friend came here in November on the 90 day visa. He should return on February 4th but he is staying until mid-April. He knew the rules when he arrived but obviously decided they didn't apply to him. A spiteful part of me hopes he gets sanctioned in some way. I think it's disrespectful, like all the other dodges some Brits pull.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Not if you lived in Andalucia, where you'd get at least the initial treatment free. Not sure what would happen afterwards but you'd certainly be asked for your ID details, passport p/copy plus address in the UK.
> That's what happened to the step - daughter of a friend I took to Emergency at the CdS Hospital in Marbella (She was seen within twenty minutes and her Mum bitterly complained that the doctor who treated her didn't speak English...my friend sensibly divorced the silly woman shortly after returning from their not very enjoyable holiday).
> I honestly don't understand how these people can claim they don't know the rules - I'm charitably assuming that they are not all dim. Surely they read the British language press here. Surely someone must have pointed out that they are disobeying/breaking laws.
> My guess is that like many Brits and Northern Europeans they have a sense of entitlement and some perhaps are just plain greedy.
> It's not just Brits. An American friend came here in November on the 90 day visa. He should return on February 4th but he is staying until mid-April. He knew the rules when he arrived but obviously decided they didn't apply to him. A spiteful part of me hopes he gets sanctioned in some way. I think it's disrespectful, like all the other dodges some Brits pull.



Totally agree, they do know the rules, they choose to ignore them, after all they are Expats as opposed to Immigrants, who we all know are bending the rules all the time.


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

DunWorkin said:


> To be fair, as I said, I don't think a lot of them realise they are breaking the rules.
> 
> They see everyone else doing it and think it is ok. They think because they are in the EU they can stay as long as they like without registering. They also don't realise that, by not registering on the padron, their local council is losing money because they do not count towards the number of people living here.
> 
> ...


I can only quote a 'real' example of our experience with a non resident. We had an elderly couple staying in our apartment for two weeks in September. At the end of the first week, we received a desperate phone call from the wife to say that her husband had fallen and was now 'slurring his speech'. My OH rang for an ambulance, and we met them at the apartment. He was taken to hospital. It wasnt until he was at the hospital that he was asked for his EHIC card, he was also asked at this point which date he arrived in Spain and the date he was returning to the UK.

After tests it was identified he had a minor stroke. The Doctor told him he must not fly for at least a week (this luckily coincided with their flights back home) but when he returned to the UK he must immediately see his GP to undergo further tests. 

The Doctor gave him sufficient medication and follow up appointments for one week only. After that he was expected to return to the UK for further investigation/treatment.

Based on the above, I certainly would not like to be in a position of having to frantically find suitable travel arrangements to go back to the UK, having suffered a stroke/heart attack, or finding some other serious and dibilitating illness.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

cambio said:


> Totally agree, they do know the rules, they choose to ignore them, after all they are Expats as opposed to Immigrants, who we all know are bending the rules all the time.



Anyone who doesn't obey all the rules should arrested, imprisoned, beaten with a soggy churro and flown out of the country by Ryanair as a final humiliating punishment.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> I know this has been covered many times here but I need a link to any recent information on this subject from a reliable source. I cannot seem to find a statement of fact to say non-resident pensioners are not covered for state healthcare in Spain.





jimenato said:


> He's claiming that he is eligible and it's up to him to prove it. He has attempted to reverse the burden of proof which is unreasonable - anyway you are unlikely to find a statement of fact of who _isn't_ eligible for healthcare.


Like Jimenato says I don't think you'll find info about who is not eligible



> *Xabiachica *You are correct that his EHIC (which if acquired by him fraudulently giving a UK address is invalid, in any case) is quite likely to be refused if it is discovered that he actually lives here. Either Spain will refuse to accept it, or the UK will refuse to pay.


That the UK doesn't pay is a very real possibility. The cost could be as much as to change his life completely depending on the treatment given.


DunWorkin said:


> . They are not even aware that they are breaking the rules and, like my friend, assume they will be seen by a doctor if they are ill.


And as you say this is a totally wrong assumption.
How about emailing the DWP describing the situation much as you have done here and without mentioning names, and then showing him the written reply?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Anyone who doesn't obey all the rules should arrested, imprisoned, beaten with a soggy churro and flown out of the country by Ryanair as a final humiliating punishment.


Better with porras








More grease for your money 
I had a "homemade" doughnut today ie not those horrible donuts in a packet. Lovely carbo high!!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I adore churros with chocolate from Valor

I would drop kick a kitten through a desk fan for one of those dripping with choccy right now


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I had a "homemade" doughnut today ie not those horrible donuts in a packet. Lovely carbo high!!


And you wonder why you don't sleep at night


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> And you wonder why you don't sleep at night


!!
A 6 monthly doughnut at 11:30 will stop me from sleeping all year going to bed at @11:30pm?
I didn't know that.

Actually the last 2 nights I've had a heavy cold and have slept much better. On Saturday I woke up at 10:00!!!!!!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> !!
> A 6 monthly doughnut at 11:30 will stop me from sleeping all year going to bed at @11:30pm?
> I didn't know that.
> 
> Actually the last 2 nights I've had a heavy cold and have slept much better. On Saturday I woke up at 10:00!!!!!!!!


It's weird. About once every ten days I just can't sleep. Last Thursday I didn't sleep until 5.00 a.m. then as it was Sandra's ADANA day the alarm woke me up at 7.00 a.m.
Yet most days I sleep for a good seven, eight or more hours. 
There seems no reason why I get these sleepless nights, I don't have worries other than those trivial ones everyone has, don't think morbid thoughts..


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It's weird. About once every ten days I just can't sleep. Last Thursday I didn't sleep until 5.00 a.m. then as it was Sandra's ADANA day the alarm woke me up at 7.00 a.m.
> Yet most days I sleep for a good seven, eight or more hours.
> There seems no reason why I get these sleepless nights, I don't have worries other than those trivial ones everyone has, don't think morbid thoughts..


If it's once every 10 days it doesn't seem anything to worry about, but I agree it's weird. You could take advantage and mow the lawn or bake some bread with these new found hours


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If it's once every 10 days it doesn't seem anything to worry about, but I agree it's weird. You could take advantage and mow the lawn or bake some bread with these new found hours


Well, Meri, Juan and Manolo and wife are very tolerant people but they may have some objection to me buzzing around on the traktor thingy at 02.00

Baking...a bit too risky. I may get tired, forget I have the oven on and go to bed, thus risking an immolation which would upset Sandra......

What I usually do is read the morning papers or The Economist on my mini tablet under the covers so it doesn't disturb Sandra or Azor. I avoid the Daily Mail as it raises my blood pressure but I find the long pieces in The Eonomist are often sleep-inducing...


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> !!
> A 6 monthly doughnut at 11:30 will stop me from sleeping all year going to bed at @11:30pm?
> I didn't know that.
> 
> Actually the last 2 nights I've had a heavy cold and have slept much better. On Saturday I woke up at 10:00!!!!!!!!


Why sleepy brains crave doughnuts - Futurity


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

With regard to the 'trying to get to sleep' problem. When I was an underling on BR I used to be responsible for rostering the guards at Norwich. For various reasons (including, but not entirely more overtime) the establishment was about 10% below what it should have been and there were another 10% vacancies on even that reduced establishment so the work was often difficult to cover. This meant that when I went to bed my mind would still be churning around trying to cover the work.

My solution was to read Anthony Trollope. Not because he was boring but because he was so detailed. He would spend an entire chapter introducing a character and he did it so well that by the end of that chapter you felt you knew that character as well as anyone within your sphere of acquaintances. It wasn't difficult but it was complicated so you had to pay attention to what you were reading otherwise you got confused. Read one chapter, turn off the light and soundo!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Helenameva said:


> Why sleepy brains crave doughnuts - Futurity


Thanks for the article - interesting, but not really related to my sleep problem. As far as I understand in the article it says that craving doughnuts comes from not sleeping not that doughnuts cause sleep deprivation.
However, if giving up a six monthly doughnut would solve the problem it wouldn't be difficult to do!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> With regard to the 'trying to get to sleep' problem. When I was an underling on BR I used to be responsible for rostering the guards at Norwich. For various reasons (including, but not entirely more overtime) the establishment was about 10% below what it should have been and there were another 10% vacancies on even that reduced establishment so the work was often difficult to cover. This meant that when I went to bed my mind would still be churning around trying to cover the work.
> 
> My solution was to read Anthony Trollope. Not because he was boring but because he was so detailed. He would spend an entire chapter introducing a character and he did it so well that by the end of that chapter you felt you knew that character as well as anyone within your sphere of acquaintances. It wasn't difficult but it was complicated so you had to pay attention to what you were reading otherwise you got confused. Read one chapter, turn off the light and soundo!


That's interesting, Baldy. I really like the Barchester Chronicles but I just can't get into the 'political' novels. I sort of liked 'Phineas Finn' but not all those other ones I tried. The Barchester characters I find arm, loveable, human, but not that upper- class Pallister lot. If I started reading 'The Warden' I wouldn't stop until I got to the end.
Not sleep- inducing at all


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I sleep like a log, unfortunately I wake up in the middle of the night and find it difficult to get back to sleep. I find it helps to read something light such as the Sunday supplements. My Mother was the same, she said it was due to an overactive mind


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Don't get me started about waking up in the middle of the night!!

I was dreaming about eating a giant marshmallow - woke up and couldn't find the pillow


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I sleep like a log, unfortunately I wake up in the middle of the night and find it difficult to get back to sleep. I find it helps to read something light such as the Sunday supplements. My Mother was the same, she said it was due to an overactive mind


or a guilty conscience!


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