# File 8854 or 1040 or both?



## OK user

I renounced my US citizenship in December of 2011. At the time I was told by embassy staff that it could take 6 months or more for the paperwork to go through. In the meantime I was told to do everything that a US citizen would normally do. So it is tax time. I have not received the paperwork so I am not sure whether to go ahead and file form 8854 or whether to file a 1040 then the 8854 when I get the paperwork, or whether to file both now. Can anyone offer advice? Thanks - Tom


----------



## Bevdeforges

If you consider December, 2011 to be your date of expatriation, then file the 8854. (According to the instructions, if your date of expatriation is in 2011, that should do it.)
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## quincy

OK user said:


> I renounced my US citizenship in December of 2011. At the time I was told by embassy staff that it could take 6 months or more for the paperwork to go through. In the meantime I was told to do everything that a US citizen would normally do. So it is tax time. I have not received the paperwork so I am not sure whether to go ahead and file form 8854 or whether to file a 1040 then the 8854 when I get the paperwork, or whether to file both now. Can anyone offer advice? Thanks - Tom


Hi Tom,
I also relinquished in December. My understanding is that 2011 is treated as a dual status year. You file 1040 up to the date you renounced, 1040NR for the remainder of the year and the 8854. You write dual status return/expatriation return across the top of the 1040NR and include the 1040 and 8854 like schedules. You also send a copy of 8854 to Philadelphia. Hopefully, you have done the 5 prior years of 1040s to help you avoid being a covered expatriate. I haven't had any professional advice, just read a lot of the forms and discussed it with others in the same situation on a different forum.
Quincy


----------



## eudorap

quincy said:


> Hi Tom,
> I also relinquished in December. My understanding is that 2011 is treated as a dual status year. You file 1040 up to the date you renounced, 1040NR for the remainder of the year and the 8854. You write dual status return/expatriation return across the top of the 1040NR and include the 1040 and 8854 like schedules. You also send a copy of 8854 to Philadelphia. Hopefully, you have done the 5 prior years of 1040s to help you avoid being a covered expatriate. I haven't had any professional advice, just read a lot of the forms and discussed it with others in the same situation on a different forum.
> Quincy


Greetings I'm going through posts related to 8854. I will be renouncing this year--2014--and have my first appointment with the US Consulate here in Toronto next week. I'm not a covered expat, and am doing only a dry run on 8854 at this point. I was surprised to see the reference in your post to Form 1040R. I have no income from the US other than a tiny amount of USSS, which I report on my Canadian return. Why would I submit a 1040R for the balance of the year after my renunciation date?
Thanks! depended


----------



## quincy

eudorap said:


> Greetings I'm going through posts related to 8854. I will be renouncing this year--2014--and have my first appointment with the US Consulate here in Toronto next week. I'm not a covered expat, and am doing only a dry run on 8854 at this point. I was surprised to see the reference in your post to Form 1040R. I have no income from the US other than a tiny amount of USSS, which I report on my Canadian return. Why would I submit a 1040R for the balance of the year after my renunciation date?
> Thanks! depended


Hi,
I agree with your logic and felt the same way, but at the time I was doing my final year, that seemed to be the way it was being done, rightly or wrongly, by those I discussed it with on the internet. I have since read on other sites that you can just do a full year 1040 and only include your income up to the date of renunciation. I just bumbled through this on my own. There was no way I was going to pay big bucks to professionals to show I owed nothing! Anyway, I did it the way I mentioned previously, and it seemed to work, It's been just about 2 years now, and I haven't heard a word from the IRS. Good luck!


----------



## maz57

OK user said:


> In the meantime I was told to do everything that a US citizen would normally do.


Holy smokes, I've never seen that one before! Why would the consulate tell the OP something like that? He was no longer a USC effective on the day he renounced, CLN in hand or not. Why would he act like one? He should act like what he really is, presumably a Canadian.

I note that this is dated December 2011; maybe the consulate staff themselves weren't up to speed on all of the nuances. The flood of renunciations had just begun.


----------



## eudorap

quincy said:


> Hi,
> I agree with your logic and felt the same way, but at the time I was doing my final year, that seemed to be the way it was being done, rightly or wrongly, by those I discussed it with on the internet. I have since read on other sites that you can just do a full year 1040 and only include your income up to the date of renunciation. I just bumbled through this on my own. There was no way I was going to pay big bucks to professionals to show I owed nothing! Anyway, I did it the way I mentioned previously, and it seemed to work, It's been just about 2 years now, and I haven't heard a word from the IRS. Good luck!


Thanks for the update, and congratulations on hearing nothing from the IRS. Once I work my way through this quagmire, I'll let others know the outcome.


----------



## quincy

eudorap said:


> Thanks for the update, and congratulations on hearing nothing from the IRS. Once I work my way through this quagmire, I'll let others know the outcome.


There are other tax forums that deal specifically with Canadian/US tax that may be helpful to you. Please look around. I'm not able to send you the link on here and was unable to send you a private message since you haven't posted enough.


----------



## eudorap

quincy said:


> There are other tax forums that deal specifically with Canadian/US tax that may be helpful to you. Please look around. I'm not able to send you the link on here and was unable to send you a private message since you haven't posted enough.


No problem. I have visited so many sites re Canada/US citizenship and tax issues that I think I don't want to know about any more! I'll be very glad when this is over.


----------



## Nobledreamer

Actually, the use of the 1040 in a dual status year is as a _statement_, not a return. And the figures are supposed to be put on the 1040NR. Some people simply do all the work on the 1040 and then put zeros on the 1040NR if they have no US income.

Eudorap, has Toronto gone back to requiring two appointments? For quite a while, they were doing it all in one. FWIW, I found the Toronto consulate to be respectful, appropriate and sympathetic. Nothing to feel any worry about.


----------



## eudorap

Nobledreamer said:


> Actually, the use of the 1040 in a dual status year is as a _statement_, not a return. And the figures are supposed to be put on the 1040NR. Some people simply do all the work on the 1040 and then put zeros on the 1040NR if they have no US income.
> 
> Eudorap, has Toronto gone back to requiring two appointments? For quite a while, they were doing it all in one. FWIW, I found the Toronto consulate to be respectful, appropriate and sympathetic. Nothing to feel any worry about.


Thanks for the clarification and encouragement. About one or two appointments in Toronto, I'll find out on Monday and let you know! I was at the January 25th presentation in Toronto, and can let you know at the address you provided there. Eudora


----------



## pishoux007

I am not clear where to send the 8854 form?

I have read that one should attach the 8854 with the 1040 (or 1040NR). But on the instruction it says to send to Philadelphia.

And you're saying that one needs to send the 8854 to both places??? I guess this is the safest solution ... 







quincy said:


> Hi Tom,
> I also relinquished in December. My understanding is that 2011 is treated as a dual status year. You file 1040 up to the date you renounced, 1040NR for the remainder of the year and the 8854. You write dual status return/expatriation return across the top of the 1040NR and include the 1040 and 8854 like schedules. You also send a copy of 8854 to Philadelphia. Hopefully, you have done the 5 prior years of 1040s to help you avoid being a covered expatriate. I haven't had any professional advice, just read a lot of the forms and discussed it with others in the same situation on a different forum.
> Quincy


----------



## BBCWatcher

Read the instructions very carefully -- including the titles of the major sections where those Philadelphia addresses appear. Pick the scenario that applies to you, and follow those Philadelphia filing instructions also if applicable.


----------



## Nobledreamer

pishoux007 said:


> I am not clear where to send the 8854 form?
> 
> I have read that one should attach the 8854 with the 1040 (or 1040NR). But on the instruction it says to send to Philadelphia.
> 
> And you're saying that one needs to send the 8854 to both places??? I guess this is the safest solution ...



This is correct. You file 1040 (with appropriate schedules), 1040 NR and 8854. If you do not owe any money, you send those to Austin. If you owe money, you send them to Charlotte. One copy of 8854 goes to Philadelphia. I sent a copy of my CLN with each (including 3520A/3520 to Utah).


----------



## claraski

*more on 8854 process*



quincy said:


> Hi,
> I agree with your logic and felt the same way, but at the time I was doing my final year, that seemed to be the way it was being done, rightly or wrongly, by those I discussed it with on the internet. I have since read on other sites that you can just do a full year 1040 and only include your income up to the date of renunciation. I just bumbled through this on my own. There was no way I was going to pay big bucks to professionals to show I owed nothing! Anyway, I did it the way I mentioned previously, and it seemed to work, It's been just about 2 years now, and I haven't heard a word from the IRS. Good luck!


Actually I have a few questions for those who already navigated the maze.
First, still need to file fbar for the year till the date signed on I407? or till the end of the yr?
Second, same apply to 8939.


----------

