# Declaring foreign assets - Modelo 720 Form



## AllHeart

I just read an article under Spain News that was created on this forum, which says overseas assets have to be declared by expats in Spain on a Modelo 720 Form. I can't figure out how to post the link, so here's the article.

_Expats living in Spain need to submit their annual declaration of overseas assets by the end of March and exchange rates could have a big impact this year.

Anyone who is resident in Spain needs to submit the Modelo 720 form but it can be complicated depending on assets owned. Expats with investments in Sterling, for example, need to take exchange rate into account, which may mean declaring assets people did not expect to.

If you have previously submitted a form you only need to declare assets if they have grown a certain amount, or if you have sold them, according to the latest advice from international tax and wealth management firm Blevins Franks.

It points out that there are three reporting categories, based on bank accounts, investments and immovable property, and you have to report all assets in a particular category if the value of your total assets in that category amounts to over €50,000 but this only applies to assets located outside Spain.

In most cases, assets are valued using the wealth tax rules as at 31 December each year. For assets held within financial institutions, for example bank accounts, you also need to declare the average balance over the last three months of the year.

The firm also points out that you need to report the value of the assets in Euros, so any investments held in Sterling, US Dollars, Swiss Francs etc, need to be converted. The rate to be used is that as at 31 December of the relevant year. On 31 December 2014 the £/€ exchange rate was 1.28.

Blevins Franks believes that exchange rates may play an even bigger part this year as the Euro has weakened. At the end of January we saw an exchange rate of 1.34, making £250,000 worth €335,000. This is already €15,000 more than the value at the end of last year.

‘While we cannot speculate now what the exchange rate will be at the end of the year, this shows what a difference exchange rate movements can make. It is something you need to be aware of and plan for if necessary,’ said a spokesman.

The introduction of the obligation to report all overseas assets in Spain has been a huge change for expats. Many are paying more tax as a result, particularly those who declared assets for the first time, or incorrectly declared them previously.

These assets will now be assessed for wealth tax, and any income they produce for income tax, and you have to declare them accordingly. Combined with higher taxes, some expats have considered leaving Spain, the firm says.

‘However Spain actually remains a tax efficient country for British retired expats if you take specialist advice. Form 720 need not necessarily be such a concern either. You should review your assets now to make sure they are in the best structures going forward,’ the spokesman added._

Here's the link about this form to the Hacienda, which is not available in English: Agencia Tributaria - Preguntas frecuentes: Modelo 720

Does anyone know anything about this form?


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## AllHeart

I just found information on this in English:

Reporting Assets Outside Spain. Form 720 | Javier Ullastres Asesores


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## tonymar

Just another way of putting off people from moving to Spain !


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## extranjero

Does anyone know anything about this form? We certainly do!!
This was the main topic of conversation for months, with many conflicting views even from "experts" 
It is the one thing since 2012 that has caused more argument, stress than any other aspect of living in Spain
If you use the search function on this and other expat forums you will be bombarded with pages of info
I found Blevins a Franks gave the clearest explanation
Such is the strength of feeling over this, that a petition has been sent to the EU, protesting at the disproportionately high penalties for mistakes and omissions on the form.
It has caused some ex pats to return to the UK, the main complaint, apart from penalties , being the requirement to bare your financial soul to the Spanish tax man in minute detail.

Anyway, if this affects you you have only till the end of this month to submit your form!


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## mrypg9

tonymar said:


> Just another way of putting off people from moving to Spain !


Nonsense, Tony Why should anyone be deterred from coming to Spain merely because the Spanish tax authorities now want a declaration which any UK resident has to supply?
There is an awful lot of alarmist nonsense talked and written about this simple requirement.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Does anyone know anything about this form? We certainly do!!
> This was the main topic of conversation for months, with many conflicting views even from "experts"
> It is the one thing since 2012 that has caused more argument, stress than any other aspect of living in Spain
> If you use the search function on this and other expat forums you will be bombarded with pages of info
> I found Blevins a Franks gave the clearest explanation
> Such is the strength of feeling over this, that a petition has been sent to the EU, protesting at the disproportionately high penalties for mistakes and omissions on the form.
> It has caused some ex pats to return to the UK, the main complaint, apart from penalties , being the requirement to bare your financial soul to the Spanish tax man in minute detail.
> 
> Anyway, if this affects you you have only till the end of this month to submit your form!




And of course you don't have to bare your soul to HMRC
Spain is better off without all those returning immigrants since they surely must have had something to hide....a rental property in the UK they don't declare to HMRC or Hacienda? A rental property in Spain they don't declare? Hidden off-shore assets? 
Tax dodgers aren't welcome anywhere, UK or Spain.
It's simple. Fill in the form yourself or do it with a gestor, financial advisor or whatever.
It's not just UK and other immigrants who have assets of the amount to be declared. Imagine: some Spaniards own more than a house, a tomato patch and a donkey too.


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Does anyone know anything about this form? We certainly do!!
> This was the main topic of conversation for months, with many conflicting views even from "experts"
> It is the one thing since 2012 that has caused more argument, stress than any other aspect of living in Spain
> If you use the search function on this and other expat forums you will be bombarded with pages of info
> I found Blevins a Franks gave the clearest explanation
> Such is the strength of feeling over this, that a petition has been sent to the EU, protesting at the disproportionately high penalties for mistakes and omissions on the form.
> It has caused some ex pats to return to the UK, the main complaint, apart from penalties , being the requirement to bare your financial soul to the Spanish tax man in minute detail.
> 
> Anyway, if this affects you you have only till the end of this month to submit your form!


I searched and read a couple of threads on this. Thank you for that suggestion. I've got enough information now to know that I have to fill out this form for my insurance annuity.



mrypg9 said:


> Nonsense, Tony Why should anyone be deterred from coming to Spain merely because the Spanish tax authorities now want a declaration which any UK resident has to supply?
> There is an awful lot of alarmist nonsense talked and written about this simple requirement.


I too think it's only fair to declare foreign assets. It's the same in Canada, that we have to declare all foreign assets.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Such is the strength of feeling over this, that a petition has been sent to the EU, protesting at the disproportionately high penalties for mistakes and omissions on the form.
> !



And just how many people have been fined, stretched on the rack, had fingernails pulled out with pliers, because of incorrectly or not filling in this form?

Reading some of the moans about Modelo 720 led me to understand why Australians called us Brits 'whingeing Poms'.


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## extranjero

Not yet! Perhaps they haven't got round to sifting through them all. 
People ARE scared of being fined for a simple error though, and these fines are higely disproportion ate 
Wouldn't you think the Hacienda could differentiate between an innocent error and tax evasion? 
It shouldn't have to be such a "stick" approach


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Not yet! Perhaps they haven't got round to sifting through them all.
> People ARE scared of being fined for a simple error though, and these fines are higely disproportion ate
> Wouldn't you think the Hacienda could differentiate between an innocent error and tax evasion?
> It shouldn't have to be such a "stick" approach


So tax policies and penalties should be framed so as not to 'scare' silly, uninformed people?
How can you say these fines are 'hugely' disproportionate when n-one has been fined as yet
How do you know Hacienda can't or hasn't distinguished between a 'simple error' or 'tax evasion'?
Sorry, but everything you have posted on this topic is a mish-mash of speculation, hypothesis and unfounded fears.


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## extranjero

If the information given by hundreds of different sources is anything to go by, then even simple errors are due for disproportionate fines.
The fact that we haven't heard of them being dished out yet means nothing.
Some may have received them, but not publicised it 
Why doesn't Hacienda state that each case will be examined on an individual basis, instead of threatening to obliterate their life savings with draconian fines?


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## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> So tax policies and penalties should be framed so as not to 'scare' silly, uninformed people?
> How can you say these fines are 'hugely' disproportionate when n-one has been fined as yet
> How do you know Hacienda can't or hasn't distinguished between a 'simple error' or 'tax evasion'?
> Sorry, but everything you have posted on this topic is a mish-mash of speculation, hypothesis and unfounded fears.


In Canada it's always been considered sexy to scream about The Taxman. It seems this culture transfers to Spain.


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> If the information given by hundreds of different sources is anything to go by, then even simple errors are due for disproportionate fines.
> The fact that we haven't heard of them being dished out yet means nothing.
> Some may have received them, but not publicised it
> Why doesn't Hacienda state that each case will be examined on an individual basis, instead of threatening to obliterate their life savings with draconian fines?


This form is a new law, right? As of 2013? I read it's a 150% fine, right?

From the English link above that I gave, "Assets not declared, that cannot be proved its ownership arousing from declared income or assets, will be considered income to be taxed, and a 150% punishment over the value of them."


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> I too think it's only fair to declare foreign assets. It's the same in Canada, that we have to declare all foreign assets.


Quite. That's what responsible citizens do. I paid a fair amount of tax to Revenue Canada as a result of renting then selling my property in Almonte. I didn't complain.

You have to understand that there is a certain type of British immigrant who doesn't quite understand that Britain is no longer the centre of a mighty Empire that rules one-third of the globe. They still assume that when they settle in a foreign land, even one not formerly part of the Empire, that they have certain rights and privileges and deserve special treatment. 
So when in Spain, they fail to register as resident, tax resident or on the Padron (although availing themselves of certain services paid by local and national taxes)drive their British-registered cars illegally, work or pay tradespeople on the black and pop back to the UK for NHS treatment, again illegally.
Their view of Spain is that the people should be grateful that they are spending their pensions here and that they have rescued them from a life of tomato growing and donkey-riding. They see the Spanish as lazy, lacking initiative, corrupt and in the dreadful habit of closing shops in the afternoon while they go home to sleep, eat or make love(or all three). 
You may not have encountered them as you will not find any of them on this Forum although there are others where they exist in moaning, whingeing numbers. They are often found in bars in popular tourist spots but can pop up anywhere, even in the remotest village.
They naturally see Modelo 720 like all price, IVA or tax increases here as a wicked measure aimed specifically at spoiling their dream in the sun in their little Shangri-La in Spain.
Best avoided.


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## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Quite. That's what responsible citizens do. I paid a fair amount of tax to Revenue Canada as a result of renting then selling my property in Almonte. I didn't complain.
> 
> You have to understand that there is a certain type of British immigrant who doesn't quite understand that Britain is no longer the centre of a mighty Empire that rules one-third of the globe. They still assume that when they settle in a foreign land, even one not formerly part of the Empire, that they have certain rights and privileges and deserve special treatment.
> So when in Spain, they fail to register as resident, tax resident or on the Padron (although availing themselves of certain services paid by local and national taxes)drive their British-registered cars illegally, work or pay tradespeople on the black and pop back to the UK for NHS treatment, again illegally.
> Their view of Spain is that the people should be grateful that they are spending their pensions here and that they have rescued them from a life of tomato growing and donkey-riding. They see the Spanish as lazy, lacking initiative, corrupt and in the dreadful habit of closing shops in the afternoon while they go home to sleep, eat or make love(or all three).
> You may not have encountered them as you will not find any of them on this Forum although there are others where they exist in moaning, whingeing numbers. They are often found in bars in popular tourist spots but can pop up anywhere, even in the remotest village.
> They naturally see Modelo 720 like all price, IVA or tax increases here as a wicked measure aimed specifically at spoiling their dream in the sun in their little Shangri-La in Spain.
> Best avoided.


I don't know that I would say that about Brits any more than people from any other country. I witnessed the same of many Canadians and non-Canadians in Canada, as well as on the news from people in other countries. I call it the culture of the world we live in, where people have a sense of entitlement. In my limited experience, it's a people thing, not a country thing.


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> I don't know that I would say that about Brits any more than people from any other country. I witnessed the same of many Canadians and non-Canadians in Canada, as well as on the news from people in other countries. I call it the culture of the world we live in, where people have a sense of entitlement. In my limited experience, it's a people thing, not a country thing.


The huge difference being that Canada at one time was part of that huge Empire.
Britain no longer occupies the powerful, controlling place in the world that it once did and some find it hard to accept.
You have to travel to see it. It's slowly dying out as the last vestiges of Empire disappeared forty or so years ago, not counting Hong Kong.

I don't find 'people' generally have a sense of entitlement. It depends entirely on the culture, expectations and material standards of each country and society.


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## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> The huge difference being that Canada at one time was part of that huge Empire.
> Britain no longer occupies the powerful, controlling place in the world that it once did and some find it hard to accept.
> You have to travel to see it. It's slowly dying out as the last vestiges of Empire disappeared forty or so years ago, not counting Hong Kong.
> 
> I don't find 'people' generally have a sense of entitlement. It depends entirely on the culture, expectations and material standards of each country and society.


I have travelled. Don't forget you're sitting in the heart of what was once the Spanish Empire. Your definition of a sense of entitlement is obviously different than mine, since you disagree with me. Anyway, that's way off topic, and I'm not in the mood for an argument today. Not today.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> If the information given by hundreds of different sources is anything to go by, then even simple errors are due for disproportionate fines.
> The fact that we haven't heard of them being dished out yet means nothing.
> Some may have received them, but not publicised it
> Why doesn't Hacienda state that each case will be examined on an individual basis, instead of threatening to obliterate their life savings with draconian fines?


Oh yes, if anyone had actually been punished, believe me, we'd have heard about it.
Do you think HMRC investigates every case on an individual basis? After almost three years of writing unanswered letters asking why I have been fined and receiving demands for £100s, increasing monthly with penalty interest, two weeks ago I received a letter informing me that in the year in question, 2010/11, I had in fact *overpaid* tax due and was owed a rebate...
Why should Hacienda alter or shape its procedures and fines to accommodate whining foreigners? How many people are unable to fill in a form which in reality is not that complicated? Where are all these distraught people? 
No-one I know is bothered. They fill in the form and pour another G&T.


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> I have travelled. Don't forget you're sitting in the heart of what was once the Spanish Empire. Your definition of a sense of entitlement is obviously different than mine, since you disagree with me. Anyway, that's way off topic, and I'm not in the mood for an argument today. Not today.


Who's arguing? We disagree. It's allowed.
The Spanish Empire was indeed a mighty one, well worth study. 
As was the Islamic Empire in Southern Spain. Both Empires of course long since dissolved. 
Spanish people don't moan about Modelo 720. Wonder why not? Now that's back on topic.


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## Alcalaina

These are the people "they" are going after. People like the son of the former president of Catalonia, who have millions of euros hidden in offshore tax havens. The fines for non-declaration seem perfectly reasonable in this context.

Hacienda descubre la fortuna en el Caribe de Oleguer Pujol | Espa?a | EL MUNDO


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## AllHeart

AllHeart said:


> This form is a new law, right? As of 2013? I read it's a 150% fine, right?
> 
> From the English link above that I gave, "Assets not declared, that cannot be proved its ownership arousing from declared income or assets, will be considered income to be taxed, and a 150% punishment over the value of them."


And the website further says, "Penalty for not filling, filling incomplete, filing with non-accurate data, will be punished with 100 euros per data with a minimum of 10.000 euros."

So is this true?!


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> And the website further says, "Penalty for not filling, filling incomplete, filing with non-accurate data, will be punished with 100 euros per data with a minimum of 10.000 euros."
> 
> So is this true?!


Yes. So there is really no point in NOT doing it properly. Though as I said previously, it's the big fish they are after, wealthy Spaniards who don't want to pay their dues. And there are plenty of those.


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Yes. So there is really no point in NOT doing it properly. Though as I said previously, it's the big fish they are after, wealthy Spaniards who don't want to pay their dues. And there are plenty of those.


OK. Thanks for letting me know. Holy wow is that ever a stiff penalty! I've been determined a non-resident of Canada, i.e. a resident of Spain, as of September 2, 2014. They're reviewing my file now and may make my residency later than that. But it seems this decision is going to stick. However, I won't know for sure until mid-April. So I'm kind of stuck as to what to do for this form. Should I go ahead and fill it out?


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## Rabbitcat

Quicky on this matter

It says anything over €50k must be declared- if wifey and I each hold separate accounts with €50k in each is that ok and does not need declared???


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## extranjero

Do you think that every form submitted, whether by accountant or by the person concerned is without error in some way? Many have said that their form had several mistakes on, and if it was submitted too late to correct them what happens? I could understand a huge fine if someone tried to hide a million, but forgetting that Aunt Maud opened a post office account 40 years ago with £20 isn't the crime of the century.
I don't mind having to declare assets, though I do not think minute detail is necessary, just boxes for each category to fill in on the income tax return would have been sufficient.
If the object of the Hacienda was to 
encourage transparency, then I fear it has had the opposite effect and scared people off becoming resident in Spain


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## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> Quicky on this matter
> 
> It says anything over €50k must be declared- if wifey and I each hold separate accounts with it has to be declared!€50k in each is that ok and does not need declared???


It DOES have to be declared!


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## Rabbitcat

Ok thanks. Just thought we were ok because we we're each not over 50k

Learn a lot on here


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## extranjero

Rabbit cat I've had a rethink on this
Are your sets outside of Spain in Euros? 
I Assumed they would be in £ 
Another thing with the exchange rate at £1 - 1. 28 euros on dec 31st 2014, some people will find that it tilts them into over 50 k in euros, when in the past year they were below the level.
However if they are exactly 50 k euros not over I would still declare as I' m sure I've read that it's 50 k and over, rather than just 50 k
Better to be safe than sorry!
Mary, I don't think you have convinced All Heart!


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## Rabbitcat

Yes money would be in UK


At what rate are you taxed on the money over the €50k?


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## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> Yes money would be in UK
> 
> 
> At what rate are you taxed on the money over the €50k?


No, that's not what it's for! You don't pay extra tax because of what's declared on the Modelo 720. If you are earning interest or rental income from your assets outside of Spain, that should be declared as part of income and taxed in the same way as your other earnings either in the UK or in Spain.

The only reason anyone should be worried about the Modelo 720 is if they aren't declaring the income from their assets. For example, if you own property in the UK that is rented out, but you don't declare the rental income on your tax declaration here.


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## extranjero

The rate at the 31st December 2014 , which was £ 1. = 1.28 euro 
One year before it was 1.20 
It could make a big difference!


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## extranjero

I meant the money in the UK is converted at £1 = 1.28 for this year's submission
I should have said there is no tax on the 720, 
You would be declaring income in your usual tax return anyway


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## Rabbitcat

Sorry Extra I misled you in what I was asking . I meant at what rate do you pay iro money you have over 50k

I assume its 25% of any intrest earned on savings over 50k???


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## AllHeart

I just spoke to Revenue Canada about this form and asked them what I should do. They said that it could be that even though I'm declared a non-resident of Canada, I may still be considered by Spain a non-resident of Spain. So I may be a non-resident of both countries! It's confusing to say the least! They said that I should go down to the Hacienda and talk to them about the form and the residency issue, which I will do. 

Revenue Canada just made the decision to put a 10% withholding tax on my pension and annuity. This moving to Spain is getting pricier and pricier, even though I didn't move to Spain for the money.


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## Rabbitcat

Maybe I am working this out wrong and if so PLEASE correct me but if I am correct at post 33 , is there really a lot to be concerned about given that intrest rates on savings are so low.

Generally the best I can see in UK are around 1.5% net.

Therefore for every 10k above the 50k allowance your "earnings" are a mere 150, meaning you owe the Spanish taxman around €40 for every €10k you have in savings over 50k


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## Dave and Anne Galicia

On the basis that you have only been in Spain since Sept 2 2014 I believe you will not be considered tax resident in Spain until the Spanish tax year Jan 1 2015 - Dec 31 2015. On that basis your first Modelo 820 should be completed by end March 2016 and your LA Renta by end June 2016. That is my understanding but I was wrong once!


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## extranjero

Rabbit you are confusing your income tax declaration with your assets outside Spain declaration, which is just that, a declaration, you aren't taxed on it, though income from those assets will be taxed in the yearly declaration.
I was just saying that you convert your UK assets to euros at 1.28 , which is the rate at Dec 31st 2014.
You obviously will be taxed on your income if you exceed the threshold, ( don't know the exact amount- someone will)
You will pay tax on your worldwide income including interest on savings etc.


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## Rabbitcat

Thanks extra

Well heres another quicky can't get my head around- queries about savings back in the UK if you reside in Spain

As far as I know you are not allowed to even open accounts in the UK if you are not registered there- certainly things like Nwide saver account or yearly term accounts


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## AllHeart

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> On the basis that you have only been in Spain since Sept 2 2014 I believe you will not be considered tax resident in Spain until the Spanish tax year Jan 1 2015 - Dec 31 2015. On that basis your first Modelo 820 should be completed by end March 2016 and your LA Renta by end June 2016. That is my understanding but I was wrong once!


Well, your track record is better than mine. I've been wrong twice.  I tried getting the answer about residency in Spain in another thread a while ago. It's not so clear cut. I went to the Hacienda, and they said I wasn't considered a resident until 183 from September 2, which puts me in April 2015. Someone else on the forum it's 183 days after January 1, which puts me in June 2015. I'm still confused on the subject.


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## extranjero

Rabbitcat said:


> Thanks extra
> 
> Well heres another quicky can't get my head around- queries about savings back in the UK if you reside in Spain
> 
> As far as I know you are not allowed to even open accounts in the UK if you are not registered there- certainly things like Nwide saver account or yearly term accounts


If you had accounts before moving to Spain you can keep them.
Many expats have their pensions paid into them.
You just can't open a new one ( although apparently some have managed it)
With ISAs you cannot add to them while resident in Spain 
Although tax free in UK you have to declare them for tax in Spain


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Do you think that every form submitted, whether by accountant or by the person concerned is without error in some way? Many have said that their form had several mistakes on, and if it was submitted too late to correct them what happens? I could understand a huge fine if someone tried to hide a million, but forgetting that Aunt Maud opened a post office account 40 years ago with £20 isn't the crime of the century.
> I don't mind having to declare assets, though I do not think minute detail is necessary, just boxes for each category to fill in on the income tax return would have been sufficient.
> If the object of the Hacienda was to
> encourage transparency, then I fear it has had the opposite effect and scared people off becoming resident in Spain


If they are so easily 'scared' by a tax form requiring them to do what the UK and other countries require, namely declare their assets, they really shouldn't board an aircraft. Let them stay in Penge or wherever.

As for 'minute detail'.....as a candidate in the May elections I am required by my Party, PSOE, to fill in a five page form giving a detailed breakdown of all assets held wherever, my income, even the value of the cars I own. This is for the public record.
Xavia, who is also a PSOE candidate, will have to do the same. I'm sure she feels easy with this, as do I.

I am happy to be direct, honest and accountable, whether to HMRC, Hacienda or if relevant the wider public.
Of course those with something to hide - like rental income declared to,neither HMRC or Hacienda - might feel differently.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> If they are so easily 'scared' by a tax form requiring them to do what the UK and other countries require, namely declare their assets, they really shouldn't board an aircraft. Let them stay in Penge or wherever.
> 
> As for 'minute detail'.....as a candidate in the May elections I am required by my Party, PSOE, to fill in a five page form giving a detailed breakdown of all assets held wherever, my income, even the value of the cars I own. This is for the public record.
> *Xavia, who is also a PSOE candidate, will have to do the same. I'm sure she feels easy with this, as do I.*
> 
> I am happy to be direct, honest and accountable, whether to HMRC, Hacienda or if relevant the wider public.
> Of course those with something to hide - like rental income declared to,neither HMRC or Hacienda - might feel differently.


I'm totally comfortable with it - & I'd even be comfortable with it if I actually HAD any assets beyond a few bits of furniture, a tele & a pushbike!!

all in Spain...


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> I'm totally comfortable with it - & I'd even be comfortable with it if I actually HAD any assets beyond a few bits of furniture, a tele & a pushbike!!
> 
> all in Spain...


You have a pushbike?!!!


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## Rabbitcat

Renter, not working,- blood from a stone!!!!


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> You have a pushbike?!!!


three actually - although two of them technically belong to my daughters - even though I paid for them..........


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> three actually - although two of them technically belong to my daughters - even though I paid for them..........


I think, to be on the safe side, you should claim all three as yours.


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## xabiaxica

AllHeart said:


> I think, to be on the safe side, you should claim all three as yours.


I dare say you're right.......


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## Rabbitcat

extranjero said:


> If you had accounts before moving to Spain you can keep them.
> Many expats have their pensions paid into them.
> You just can't open a new one ( although apparently some have managed it)
> With ISAs you cannot add to them while resident in Spain
> Although tax free in UK you have to declare them for tax in Spain


But in that situation your UK account will pay you net only -not gross. Does this mean you wont be taxed on it in Spain


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## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> I dare say you're right.......


Especially now that you've outed yourself on this public forum.


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> I'm totally comfortable with it - & I'd even be comfortable with it if I actually HAD any assets beyond a few bits of furniture, a tele & a pushbike!!
> 
> all in Spain...


Now you've got me seriously worried.....there is a bike in our cellar and undeclared! In the UK and Prague I was a serious cyclist but not since coming to Spain, alas. Too many hills where I live.

Back to topic: if you choose to live in a country you accept its laws. Simple. If you don't like them, go elsewhere or don't come in the first place. And don't expect laws to remain the same. Laws change in the UK too.

I won't visit certain Islamic states as I find their laws relating to women's freedom un congenial. Their laws, my right not to put myself under their jurisdiction.

Incidentally, we have an election campaign meeting tonight...at 23.30, can you believe..
I think I'll pass


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## AllHeart

So it turns out that I am currently a tax resident of Spain and need to fill out the Modelo 720 Form. The guy at the Hacienda said I can fill it out online. To be sure that I get the right form, could someone instruct me as to the location of the link for this form, please?


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## angkag

extranjero said:


> The rate at the 31st December 2014 , which was £ 1. = 1.28 euro
> One year before it was 1.20
> It could make a big difference!


Just to confirm, we are supposed to use the bulletin BOE-A-2015-56 from the Bank of Spain right ?

This gives the pound exchange rate as 0.77890 (ie to 5 decimal places), which the other way, is 1.28386 (staying with 5 dp).

Presumably we should use the 0.77890 rate right ? 

As an aside, much of the fear about this form is to do with accidental errors like this where some might use a slightly incorrect exchange rate and end up potentially liable for one of the fines advertised (I've no idea if the numbers above are correct, hence the question if I'm using the right form).


----------



## snikpoh

angkag said:


> Just to confirm, we are supposed to use the bulletin BOE-A-2015-56 from the Bank of Spain right ?
> 
> This gives the pound exchange rate as 0.77890 (ie to 5 decimal places), which the other way, is 1.28386 (staying with 5 dp).
> 
> Presumably we should use the 0.77890 rate right ?
> 
> As an aside, much of the fear about this form is to do with accidental errors like this where some might use a slightly incorrect exchange rate and end up potentially liable for one of the fines advertised (I've no idea if the numbers above are correct, hence the question if I'm using the right form).


I thought I was a mathematician - but maybe not!

If you have, say, £40k in savings in UK, then you multiply this by 1.28386 to give 51344€ which then goes on the declaration - or have I got this wrong?

Why do you need to know it's 0.77890?


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> So it turns out that I am currently a tax resident of Spain and need to fill out the Modelo 720 Form. The guy at the Hacienda said I can fill it out online. To be sure that I get the right form, could someone instruct me as to the location of the link for this form, please?


That's right, there is no print version and it can only be done online. 
https://www.agenciatributaria.gob.es/AEAT.sede/tramitacion/GI34.shtml

However to do this you will need to install a digital certificate on your computer. Doing this took me far longer than filling in the form, and even then the completed form didn't "submit" correctly. In the end I gave up and paid my gestor €15 to do it for me (I just printed out the completed form and he copied it).


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> That's right, there is no print version and it can only be done online.
> https://www.agenciatributaria.gob.es/AEAT.sede/tramitacion/GI34.shtml
> 
> However to do this you will need to install a digital certificate on your computer. Doing this took me far longer than filling in the form, and even then the completed form didn't "submit" correctly. In the end I gave up and paid my gestor €15 to do it for me (I just printed out the completed form and he copied it).


Alcalaina, thank you so much for this and for the heads up about the digital certificate. I took a look at the site, and I'm way, way out of my league in trying to fill this out. Spanish Bestie is bilingual and could help me out, but given the gravity of penalties in filling this out incorrectly, I've decided to use a gestor for this form. I'll ask my family for a recommendation. I'll do as you did, by filling out as much as I can with Spanish Bestie, then print it out and take it to a gestor. Again, thank you for your guidance. Huge hugs to you.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

Perhaps somone could clarify this important point re tax residency and the obligation to complete Modelo 720. My understanding is that you must spend 183 days in Spain in any year to be classified as tax resident. In the following year before the end of March you will then be required to submit Modelo 720. AllHeart appears to have arrived in Spain Sept 02 2014.On that basis, unless additional days during 2014 were spent in Spain Modelo 720 need not be completed until March 2016.


----------



## AllHeart

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> Perhaps somone could clarify this important point re tax residency and the obligation to complete Modelo 720. My understanding is that you must spend 183 days in Spain in any year to be classified as tax resident. In the following year before the end of March you will then be required to submit Modelo 720. AllHeart appears to have arrived in Spain Sept 02 2014.On that basis, unless additional days during 2014 were spent in Spain Modelo 720 need not be completed until March 2016.


Hi Dave & Anne. Thanks for your concern. I'm a tax resident based on lack of residential ties in Canada, and having residential ties in Spain, as discussed in this thread:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...194-tax-residency-based-residential-ties.html


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Hi Dave & Anne. Thanks for your concern. I'm a tax resident based on lack of residential ties in Canada, and having residential ties in Spain, as discussed in this thread:
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...194-tax-residency-based-residential-ties.html


It's probably correct that because the Spanish tax year is a calendar year, strictly speaking you don't have to do anything till 2016 because you were only here for three months in 2014. But if Hacienda knew this and still advised you to do it, then I would do it. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## angkag

snikpoh said:


> I thought I was a mathematician - but maybe not!
> 
> If you have, say, £40k in savings in UK, then you multiply this by 1.28386 to give 51344€ which then goes on the declaration - or have I got this wrong?
> 
> Why do you need to know it's 0.77890?


The Bank of Spain document (assuming its the right document) gives the rate as 0.77890, not 1.28386.

So technically should take the sterling value and divide by 0.77890 to get the Euro equivalent, as that's the provided exchange rate.

Note in your example above that 40,000 times 1.28386 is actually 51,354.40 vs 51,344. So would putting 51,344 be an error on the form hence attract one of the advertised fines for mistakes ?

Then 40,000 divided by 0.77890 gives 51,354.47, a 7c difference from multiplying by 1.28386.

Rationally, no-one would expect this to make any difference, and should certainly not be deserving of a fine, but having dealt with irrationality and inconsistency from that other great bureaucracy, the immigration dept., the fear is a similar lack of consistency and rationality from the tax people, where an overly-officious inspector goes for every technical infraction.


----------



## extranjero

AllHeart said:


> Alcalaina, thank you so much for this and for the heads up about the digital certificate. I took a look at the site, and I'm way, way out of my league in trying to fill this out. Spanish Bestie is bilingual and could help me out, but given the gravity of penalties in filling this out incorrectly, I've decided to use a gestor for this form. I'll ask my family for a recommendation. I'll do as you did, by filling out as much as I can with Spanish Bestie, then print it out and take it to a gestor. Again, thank you for your guidance. Huge hugs to you.


Believe me, accountants and gestors make mistakes too! 
I wonder how many people are blissfully unaware of mistakes and omissions.on their 720 form, made by professionals under pressure with a deadline to meet. Not everyone had the chance to check every entry, as there was insufficient time and too many clients
They had a massive increase in their work when this declaration was brought in, some out sourced the work
All these long account numbers, Ibans, policy numbers, dates, balances- do you really think they are all filled in completely accurately?
They won't have taken the trouble that you yourself would take
My ISA balance was written as 10 times higher! It would be nice for me if it was that figure, but I' m glad I picked that up.
Apparently if you can prove you didn't set out to defraud you won't be punished, and they'll forgive you for not entering that £ 10 premium bond Aunt Maud gave you on your 5 th birthday!


----------



## angkag

Just asked a neighbor how they were doing with the form as they also moved to Spain at the end of last year (and have a house in the UK). Response "what form ? ". 

Not sure if I did them a favour or not....


----------



## extranjero

I wonder how many expat and Spanish pensioners , who have not paid tax in Spain will take advantage of the Tax office amnesty which will not penalise those who submit income tax returns for the last 4 years.
The tax office is being unusually lenient to these evaders because they recognise that the poor old dears were not aware of or were confused by Taxes.
Isn't that sweet?!
Bet they'll continue on their merry way chirping about the stress free life that is Spain!


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

The amnesty applies specifically to non declaration of overseas pensions and will apply to many Spaniards in addition to expats. There is no mention that the amnesty covers undeclared income from overseas rental property. Undeclared rental income would seem to suggest no Modelo 720 return! Good reason to become non tax resident as many have.


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## extranjero

But surely it must apply to ALL ncome as the idea is that residents should be paying income tax , and people's income consists of more than just pensions..
If I had my time again I would never have stayed here long enough to become resident, and saved myself a lot of hassle


----------



## snikpoh

extranjero said:


> But surely it must apply to ALL ncome as the idea is that residents should be paying income tax , and people's income consists of more than just pensions..
> If I had my time again I would never have stayed here long enough to become resident, and saved myself a lot of hassle


... yes, of course it covers all income for the reason you state.

Filling in form 720 should not, however, put anyone off coming to Spain as it really isn't a lot of hassle and many countries now have a similar process.


----------



## extranjero

I don't mean just the 720, I mean the whole tax thing, and the fact that there is so much conflicting advice, and because unless you have paid a fortune to financial advisors, or have extremely simple tax affairs you are likely to be worse off tax wise in a Spain.
It definitely is a reason people either avoid staying 183 days in Spain, or go under the radar.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

I am pretty sure it is only pension income. There are a lot of Spaniards who have worked abroad and have pensions that they do not declare even if they complete a yearly return. UK pensioners who have never made a return here in Spain have the opportunity to come clean with there UK pension income. Other income is another matter. /SNIP/


----------



## extranjero

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> I am pretty sure it is only pension income. There are a lot of Spaniards who have worked abroad and have pensions that they do not declare even if they complete a yearly return. UK pensioners who have never made a return here in Spain have the opportunity to come clean with there UK pension income. Other income is another matter. You could check out CAB Spain for more info.


If pensioners are paying income tax, then it has to be on worldwide income and include everything, savings interest, rental income , investment income etc 
Other pensioners who are paying income tax on their worldwide income because they know they it's their liability to pay their taxes in Spain, and didn't need an amnesty to remind them of their tax obligations, are not in a different class.
All pensioners have the same tax obligations. It doesn't need spelling out!
The Hacienda isn't going to say to those on amnesty " thank you for coming clean at last. We're only interested in your pensions, don't worry about your other incomes!" Are they?


----------



## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Believe me, accountants and gestors make mistakes too!
> I wonder how many people are blissfully unaware of mistakes and omissions.on their 720 form, made by professionals under pressure with a deadline to meet. Not everyone had the chance to check every entry, as there was insufficient time and too many clients
> They had a massive increase in their work when this declaration was brought in, some out sourced the work
> All these long account numbers, Ibans, policy numbers, dates, balances- do you really think they are all filled in completely accurately?
> They won't have taken the trouble that you yourself would take
> My ISA balance was written as 10 times higher! It would be nice for me if it was that figure, but I' m glad I picked that up.
> Apparently if you can prove you didn't set out to defraud you won't be punished, and they'll forgive you for not entering that £ 10 premium bond Aunt Maud gave you on your 5 th birthday!


You've got me thinking again that I might do it myself. I've done my own personal taxes for almost 30 years, and did my self-employed business taxes for 20 years. There were only three years that I didn't have time to do them, so I had an accountant do them, and every time they messed up royally. In the end, I ended up spending more time having an accountant do it and me fixing their mess than I would have spent doing them myself. So I'm thinking if I invest the time this year in figuring out this form, then I'll be home free next year. Mmmmm...... I'll just see how it goes. 

I joked with the guy at the Hacienda today in saying that I know I have to get this form right or they'll cut my throat as I motioned to slice my throat - just to be sure he understood what I meant. He nodded, smiled slightly and said, "Yes, it's a minimum fine of 1,000 euros." Gulp!


----------



## extranjero

1000 euros? Good news!
We all thought it was 10,000 minimum


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

I suppose there are some UK expats who rely solely on their pensions and have not declared them through ignorance, bad advice etc. Many will have paid tax on the these pensions in the UK. There are many Spaniards who have overseas pensions who know they should declare them but do not. The Amnesty we are talking about seems to be specifically be limited to pensions.


----------



## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> 1000 euros? Good news!
> We all thought it was 10,000 minimum


You're right! Sorry.  I just checked back on pg 3 of this thread where I quoted that same figure. I forgot it was 10,000. I just can't wrap my head around that. It's probably because to me, 1,000 is just as impossible as 10,000 or 1,000,000. My budget is very, very tight! My tight budget is another incentive to figuring out how to do this form myself.


----------



## AllHeart

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> I suppose there are some UK expats who rely solely on their pensions and have not declared them through ignorance, bad advice etc. Many will have paid tax on the these pensions in the UK. There are many Spaniards who have overseas pensions who know they should declare them but do not. The Amnesty we are talking about seems to be specifically be limited to pensions.


Are you saying that you have to declare pensions on the 720 form? Or are you just talking about declaring this as income on your income tax return? I have a pension too, but it's got no real value as an asset, because I just get a monthly of about $1,000 (about 730 euros), but when I die it stops. This is a government pension, so I can't cash it in. So I'm not claiming that on my 720 form, but I will claim this as income when filing Spanish and Canadian taxes. Is that correct to not put this on the 720 form?

My annuity is similar, but different. I have a monthly income of about $750 (about 550 euros). It is money that my dad left me and it was set up so that I cannot cash it in for the full value, but I have 18 years left on 20 years of monthly payments. When I die, it can be cashed in by the benefactor, or he can have monthly payments. The lump sum value of this right now is about $155,000 (about 113,000 euros). So this annuity is what I have to claim as an assets. Right?


----------



## extranjero

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> I suppose there are some UK expats who rely solely on their pensions and have not declared them through ignorance, bad advice etc. Many will have paid tax on the these pensions in the UK. There are many Spaniards who have overseas pensions who know they should declare them but do not. The Amnesty we are talking about seems to be specifically be limited to pensions.


The amnesty is for expats and Spanish alike
It may only say pensions but surely it is taken as read that income tax is paid on worldwide income on ALL types of income rentals, savings interest as well.
You cannot have a 2 tier system whereby pensioners who take advantage of the amnesty can only declare pensions and ignore other income, while others who have always dutifully paid their taxes continue paying on the lot.
It would be ridiculous!


----------



## angkag

snikpoh said:


> ... yes, of course it covers all income for the reason you state.
> 
> Filling in form 720 should not, however, put anyone off coming to Spain as it really isn't a lot of hassle and many countries now have a similar process.


I don't think its the 720 form as such, more the fear of dealing with an unreasonable officialdom. 

As a comparison, my tax affairs in HK were always openly discussed with the tax office, but HK was consistent and always pragmatic. Whenever there were complications, a fair solution was always reached quickly and easily, and I found the tax people there most reasonable and easy to deal with. No worries there. Ditto Singapore too. 

But Spain I'm worried as I've not seen much pragmatism from the government departments yet. That's the worry, that something minor and accidental ends up with 1000's of Euros of unreasonable fines.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

extranjero said:


> The amnesty is for expats and Spanish alike
> It may only say pensions but surely it is taken as read that income tax is paid on worldwide income on ALL types of income rentals, savings interest as well.
> You cannot have a 2 tier system whereby pensioners who take advantage of the amnesty can only declare pensions and ignore other income, while others who have always dutifully paid their taxes continue paying on the lot.
> It would be ridiculous!


The Amnesty only applies to pensions. If someone has not declared other sources of income and they are found out they will be penalised. Penalties are less if they make a voluntary return.


----------



## Dave and Anne Galicia

AllHeart said:


> Are you saying that you have to declare pensions on the 720 form? Or are you just talking about declaring this as income on your income tax return? I have a pension too, but it's got no real value as an asset, because I just get a monthly of about $1,000 (about 730 euros), but when I die it stops. This is a government pension, so I can't cash it in. So I'm not claiming that on my 720 form, but I will claim this as income when filing Spanish and Canadian taxes. Is that correct to not put this on the 720 form?
> 
> My annuity is similar, but different. I have a monthly income of about $750 (about 550 euros). It is money that my dad left me and it was set up so that I cannot cash it in for the full value, but I have 18 years left on 20 years of monthly payments. When I die, it can be cashed in by the benefactor, or he can have monthly payments. The lump sum value of this right now is about $155,000 (about 113,000 euros). So this annuity is what I have to claim as an assets. Right?


The Amnesty mentioned relates only to overseas pension income that should be declared on the yearly income tax return. I have only an occupatioinal final salary pension scheme which did not have to be included on Modelo 720. The treatment of annuities and other pension types I cannot comment on.


----------



## extranjero

angkag said:


> I don't think its the 720 form as such, more the fear of dealing with an unreasonable officialdom.
> 
> As a comparison, my tax affairs in HK were always openly discussed with the tax office, but HK was consistent and always pragmatic. Whenever there were complications, a fair solution was always reached quickly and easily, and I found the tax people there most reasonable and easy to deal with. No worries there. Ditto Singapore too.
> 
> But Spain I'm worried as I've not seen much pragmatism from the government departments yet. That's the worry, that something minor and accidental ends up with 1000's of Euros of unreasonable fines.


Let's hope the petition to the EU protesting at these disproportionate fines has an effect!


----------



## AllHeart

Dave and Anne Galicia said:


> The Amnesty mentioned relates only to overseas pension income that should be declared on the yearly income tax return. I have only an occupatioinal final salary pension scheme which did not have to be included on Modelo 720. The treatment of annuities and other pension types I cannot comment on.


Thanks for explaining that, Dave & Anne. I'm thinking my pension is the same as yours. It's a government work pension like they have here in Spain and the UK. I contributed to that pension when working in Canada. I've taken it early due to disability. So it has no cash value, just like work pensions with a company. So our pensions are the same - when we die, it stops. Although perhaps with some companies you can cash out your pension. So if you didn't have to claim your pension, perhaps I don't have to either.

The annuity is the same as my pension for all intents and purposes for me. It only is worth more than the minimum required amount of 50,000 euros for the 720 form when I die - to my benefactor, Canadian Bestie. 

The site I read in English said I have to put annuities on the 720 form:

_“S”: life insurance (savings not risk) or disability and pension time or annuities, whose insurance companies are located overseas.

1. Insurance life or disability, whose insurance company is located abroad.
2. Temporary or life income generated as a result of the deposit of capital, abroad._

Copied from here: Reporting Assets Outside Spain. Form 720 | Javier Ullastres Asesores

So that's the first big step: To find out what I'm putting on the form - annuity and/or pension. I don't understand why I have to fill this form out, when I'm going to be claiming this income on my income tax return in June.


----------



## AllHeart

I think I understand now why these assets are reported on this form, from the article I cited in my first post in this thread: 

_"These assets will now be assessed for wealth tax, and any income they produce for income tax, and you have to declare them accordingly."_

But as you can see, I'm already poor! I hope I don't get slapped with a wealth tax. I wonder how they calculate this wealth tax. Does anyone know?


----------



## snikpoh

AllHeart said:


> I think I understand now why these assets are reported on this form, from the article I cited in my first post in this thread:
> 
> _"These assets will now be assessed for wealth tax, and any income they produce for income tax, and you have to declare them accordingly."_
> 
> But as you can see, I'm already poor! I hope I don't get slapped with a wealth tax. I wonder how they calculate this wealth tax. Does anyone know?


Wealth tax only really clicks in if you have assets in excess of 700000€ and then you are allowed about 300000€ for your main property (each if in joint names).

So, unless you have assets in excess of about 1 million euros, it's not an issue (at the moment).


----------



## AllHeart

snikpoh said:


> Wealth tax only really clicks in if you have assets in excess of 700000€ and then you are allowed about 300000€ for your main property (each if in joint names).
> 
> So, unless you have assets in excess of about 1 million euros, it's not an issue (at the moment).


Phew! Thank you for letting me know! No, that doesn't apply to me, as all I have is my pension and annuity, which are much less than this, as you see. 

Just because I'm living outside of Canada, Revenue Canada has taxed me a nonrefundable 10% withholding tax on my pension and annuity, even though my income is below the poverty line. This is the best reduction they could come up with after putting in an NR5 form for claiming low income. So it's not all roses with Revenue Canada either. 

I was bowled over yesterday by how helpful the Hacienda is. They said to make an appointment to do my taxes with them. They said I just need to bring in all my paperwork, and they will do my income tax forms with me. There is no such thing in Canada as the government sitting down with you to do your taxes.


----------



## mc2images

Really useful as we are considering a possible move to Spain and this may make us thing again. Also it's not clear what the rate of any wealth Tax is or maybe?
I assume that the wealth Tax is outside the agreement on dual taxation between the UK and Spain?


----------



## angkag

mc2images said:


> Really useful as we are considering a possible move to Spain and this may make us thing again. Also it's not clear what the rate of any wealth Tax is or maybe?
> I assume that the wealth Tax is outside the agreement on dual taxation between the UK and Spain?


There are quite a few websites that detail the wealth tax and the rates. 

The tax was abolished some time ago, but reintroduced recently. As mentioned there is an allowance of 700,000, plus additional allowance for a house. Tax starts to be paid if total assets exceed these allowances available.

The provinces have the right to vary the allowances and rates, and some do, eg Valencia last I read.


----------



## mc2images

Thanks very much for your prompt response - it looks like we might need some advice so as not to end up paying tax on assets paid for over years - even then from our net pay having paid tax on our income already in the first place.


----------



## angkag

mc2images said:


> Thanks very much for your prompt response - it looks like we might need some advice so as not to end up paying tax on assets paid for over years - even then from our net pay having paid tax on our income already in the first place.


If tax is a major consideration, have you looked at Portugal ? No wealth tax, much lower inheritance tax, and also more favourable treatment of overseas income compared to Spain. A ex work colleague in Hong Kong has changed his destination from Spain to the Algarve due to these very reasons.

(bit of a shame for Spain really as real jobs come from people like him arriving and spending money here).


----------



## agua642

Does a UK pensioner who has retired here and pays tax on his pension in UK have to do tax declaration in Spain?


----------



## AllHeart

agua642 said:


> Does a UK pensioner who has retired here and pays tax on his pension in UK have to do tax declaration in Spain?


Hi Agua642. Yes, if you're a tax resident. That's the situation I'm in too. Fortunately, the UK and Canada both have tax treaties with Spain where there's no double taxing, i.e. the tax you pay in the UK is considered tax paid in Spain.


----------



## snikpoh

AllHeart said:


> Hi Agua642. Yes, if you're a tax resident. That's the situation I'm in too. Fortunately, the UK and Canada both have tax treaties with Spain where there's no double taxing, i.e. the tax you pay in the UK is considered tax paid in Spain.



Be careful though, as the allowances are not the same, there may still be a little tax left to pay.


EVERYONE who is resident in Spain SHOULD submit a tax return every year.

Property owners should as well.


----------



## AllHeart

snikpoh said:


> Be careful though, as the allowances are not the same, there may still be a little tax left to pay.
> 
> 
> EVERYONE who is resident in Spain SHOULD submit a tax return every year.
> 
> Property owners should as well.


Yes, that's something I don't know yet - whether or not I will have tax owing in Spain. The way I understand it is that say Spain says I owe 16% taxes, and Canada says I owe 14% taxes. Then I pay 14% to Canada, prove to Spain that I have paid that by showing my Canadian income tax return, then pay Spain the balance of 16%-14% = 2%. But it may be that Spain says 12%. So I pay nothing to Spain (14% Canada - 12% Spain= -2% Spain) Those are completely random numbers, just to get my point across. Is that correct?


----------



## larryzx

All heart. 
As I have said here before,* the agreements between Spain and each country are different* (thus it should be noted re any info given here, as to which country it refers). 

I understand from a Canadian friend, that he pays a fixed percentage in Canada, I believe on all his income, and that exempts him from paying any more tax on that income in Spain. 

( NB No such rule applies to the UK).


----------



## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> All heart.
> As I have said here before,* the agreements between Spain and each country are different* (thus it should be noted re any info given here, as to which country it refers).
> 
> I understand from a Canadian friend, that he pays a fixed percentage in Canada, I believe on all his income, and that exempts him from paying any more tax on that income in Spain.
> 
> ( NB No such rule applies to the UK).


YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHOUT AS I'M SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE COMPUTER AND IT DOES NOT MAKE ME LISTEN ANY HARDER OR BETTER WHEN YOU SHOUT AND GET CONDESCENDING WITH ME. So now according to you I am not allowed to ask questions because I come from Canada? Sometimes Larry... You make me want to scream when you get so bossy and heavy handed!


----------



## AllHeart

Another thing, Larry, is that you always act as if you're the authority, when you're not. There has been a double taxation treaty between Spain and the UK since 1976. Here is the information from a most reliable source, Advoco:

_What is the double tax treaty?

Many countries have a double tax treaty with each other to clarify and simplify the tax situation of companies and individuals that have fiscal dealings in both countries. Specifically they deal with situations where a taxpayer is obliged to pay tax on the same income under the rules of both countries and detail when relief is to be given in these circumstances.

Spain and the UK have had a double tax treaty since 1976. (It has been updated during 2014 with most changes applying from 2015.)_

Copied from here: Double tax treaty between Spain and the UK

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a fixed tax rate in Canada.


----------



## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> Another thing, Larry, is that you always act as if you're the authority, when you're not. There has been a double taxation treaty between Spain and the UK since 1976. Here is the information from a most reliable source, Advoco:
> 
> .


Your source is out of date (i.e. wrong). 

The DTA between UK and Spain was Revised/change/replaced in 2013. It meant some important changes for us affected.

Just one change, was that when tax is stopped in UK by say a bank, who will not accept, I believe it is a form R85, now one can claim all of that tax from HMRC, previously it was only 8% of that stopped. The taxperson kept the 12%.

_you always act as if you're the authority,_ Yes, I always try to ensure that what I post is correct, if that is what you mean.


----------



## Megsmum

larryzx said:


> Your source is out of date (i.e. wrong).
> 
> The DTA between UK and Spain was Revised/change/replaced in 2013. It meant some important changes for us affected.
> 
> Just one change, was that when tax is stopped in UK by say a bank, who will not accept, I believe it is a form R85, now one can claim all of that tax from HMRC, previously it was only 8% of that stopped. The taxperson kept the 12%.
> 
> _you always act as if you're the authority,_ Yes, I always try to ensure that what I post is correct, if that is what you mean.


sorry are you saying there is no longer a duel tax agreement between Spain and the UK


----------



## larryzx

cambio said:


> sorry are you saying there is no longer a duel tax agreement between Spain and the UK


No, I said, "Revised/change/replaced in 2013". It was signed in 2013 and came onto effect 2014.

That is there is a new one as from 2013, which is different, in some respects, from the previous one which is now obsolete.

It can found here:- http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/in-force/spain-dtc.pdf


----------



## Megsmum

larryzx said:


> No, I said, "Revised/change/replaced in 2013".
> 
> That is there is a new one as from 2013, which is different, in some respects, from the previous one which is now obsolete.


Right, so her source of info was wrong not so much her substance.

off to boil my head now


thanks


----------



## larryzx

cambio said:


> Right, so her source of info was wrong not so much her substance.


I just tried to contact her source.

I see they are listed as 

1331 7th Street Suite H
Berkeley, CA 94710

Tel: +1 (415) 632-1574

Maybe that's why they are a bit rusty about Spain and UK.


----------



## extranjero

So which is now the correct form from HMRC to reclaim savings tax?


----------



## extranjero

cambio said:


> sorry are you saying there is no longer a duel tax agreement between Spain and the UK


Liked the pun( if unintended ) about the duAl tax egreement! Sorry.


----------



## larryzx

extranjero said:


> So which is now the correct form from HMRC to reclaim savings tax?


When I spoke to HMRC about 10 days ago they said it was an R43. However, I did read a post later, which said it may be another form. 

I suggest for those who need to know they should call HMRC and explain their partciluar circumstances. Horse's mouth and all that !


----------



## xabiaxica

of course there is still a dual tax agreement between the UK & Spain - & broadly, for the ordinary man on the street, it does still mean that _you don't pay the same tax twice_


----------



## larryzx

xabiachica said:


> of course there is still a dual tax agreement between the UK & Spain - & broadly, for the ordinary man on the street, it does still mean that _you don't pay the same tax twice_


Hey, perhaps that's the reason the preamble to the Agreement between Spain and UK sign on 14th March 2013 reads:

CONVENTION BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN FOR THE* AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION *AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME AND ON CAPITAL

opps naughty me, nearly forgot to show from where I was quoting !!!! 
Quote from http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/i.../spain-dtc.pdf


----------



## AllHeart

xabiachica said:


> of course there is still a dual tax agreement between the UK & Spain - & broadly, for the ordinary man on the street, it does still mean that _you don't pay the same tax twice_


Thank you for answering my question so politely. I like how you know so much yet you don't get haughty about it.

Back to the topic of the Modelo 720... I spoke with one of my cousins, and decided to get some help to fill out this form. She made a phone appointment for me this morning with her son's friend who works in a firm as a lawyer, and has a colleague in the firm who is an economista. I know that translates to economist, but I don't know what that means. Does anyone know? So we just had our phone meeting, and I have an appointment with the economist on Monday to go over everything. This is just a consult, and it costs 60 euros. He said the more complicated it is, the more it will cost - of course. So I'm thinking the more I know and the more I have ready by Monday, the less this is going to cost me. But I don't see how I can even get started, since the forms and guides are all locked on the Hacienda website that Alcalaina kindly gave me: https://www.agenciatributaria.gob.es/AEAT.sede/tramitacion/GI34.shtml

So does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can get prepared for my Monday meeting?


----------



## AllHeart

I just answered my question... I just noticed a tab on that link I gave in my last post for information: Información general - Agencia Tributaria. There is lots of info there to explain the form. I'm starting with the videos, which are here: Agencia Tributaria - Modelo 720. The first video in the beginning explains something I was talking about in another thread: Who is considered a tax resident of Spain. Someone might be surprised to find out that they're considered a tax resident of Spain.


----------



## angkag

I'm going through a similar process, and what I'm making sure that I take the Gestor all of the details required for the completion of the form. I don't have any overseas property, so I don't know what is needed for the property declaration, but for bank accounts, need:

- Bank Name
- full address
- type of account
- type of ownership (if joint or other complication)
- full details including IBAN
- date opened
- balance at 31 Dec
- average balance over the last quarter of 2014

For me, I have quite a few currencies, so will be providing the details of how the Euro equivalents are calculated and the Euro totals. I'm not sure how much detail the forms need, but will have all the detail printed out as needed.

For stocks, I'm hoping that all is needed is:

- full stock code
- company name
- number owned and value of stocks as at 31 Dec
- converted to Euro at the exchange rate issued by the BOE for 31 Dec (#56)

Hopefully that should do it, but I won't know till after the meeting.


----------



## AllHeart

angkag said:


> I'm going through a similar process, and what I'm making sure that I take the Gestor all of the details required for the completion of the form. I don't have any overseas property, so I don't know what is needed for the property declaration, but for bank accounts, need:
> 
> - Bank Name
> - full address
> - type of account
> - type of ownership (if joint or other complication)
> - full details including IBAN
> - date opened
> - balance at 31 Dec
> - average balance over the last quarter of 2014
> 
> For me, I have quite a few currencies, so will be providing the details of how the Euro equivalents are calculated and the Euro totals. I'm not sure how much detail the forms need, but will have all the detail printed out as needed.
> 
> For stocks, I'm hoping that all is needed is:
> 
> - full stock code
> - company name
> - number owned and value of stocks as at 31 Dec
> - converted to Euro at the exchange rate issued by the BOE for 31 Dec (#56)
> 
> Hopefully that should do it, but I won't know till after the meeting.


Angkag, that's so helpful to know about this. Thank you! I didn't know what was needed for my Canadian bank accounts. I had and have virtually no money in there, but I understand that because of my annuity, I have to give info on that too. I've closed one of my two bank accounts, so it's going to be hard to find the balanace on that, but I'll figure it out. My question to you is about the euro conversion. What source are we supposed to use for the euro conversion? Again, thank you for sharing the work you've done so far. When is your meeting?


----------



## angkag

AllHeart said:


> Angkag, that's so helpful to know about this. Thank you! I didn't know what was needed for my Canadian bank accounts. I had and have virtually no money in there, but I understand that because of my annuity, I have to give info on that too. I've closed one of my two bank accounts, so it's going to be hard to find the balanace on that, but I'll figure it out. My question to you is about the euro conversion. What source are we supposed to use for the euro conversion? Again, thank you for sharing the work you've done so far. When is your meeting?


Just google BOE-A-2015-56 and it will take you to a pdf of the form that I THINK is the right one to use.

Every thing I have read says to use the relevant BOE rates, and this form clearly states that the rates given are the BOE rates for 31 Dec 2014, so I'm assuming this is the list of correct rates (hopefully a fair assumption, and if not, surely can't be far wrong).

(meeting is next week and will update if anything new)


----------



## AllHeart

Got it: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2015/01/03/pdfs/BOE-A-2015-56.pdf

Thank you. That looks as about official as it can get. 

So the heat is on for both of us for next week's meeting!


----------



## mrypg9

Several different issues are being mixed up here. Modelo 720 is about assets not income, isn't it....Income from assets should be declared annually to Hacienda just as you would declare asset -based income to your home tax authority.
We're off on Monday to do our declaration and as we always do will take every possible relevant document we possess relating to personal circumstances and reportable assets. We shall as usual pay a qualified person to do what is required. Then we shall have a coffee somewhere and go home.
Realistically, that is all anyone can do.
Carrying on about draconian penalties when no-one can produce evidence that any have actually been issued seems to me to be unnecessarily scaremongering, Daily Mail type in fact.
If our gestor turns out to be useless, makes mistakes and we are fined a massive and disproportionate sum, have no fear, I'll let you all know.
Until then I'll worry about more pressing things such as the threat of global jihadism, global warning and the fact that the Conservatives may win this year's elections in the UK and Spain.


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Several different issues are being mixed up here. Modelo 720 is about assets not income, isn't it....Income from assets should be declared annually to Hacienda just as you would declare asset -based income to your home tax authority.


Hi Mary. I don't think anyone is getting things mixed up here; we're talking about different issues as they relate to the Modelo 720, including how it relates to filing income tax.


----------



## larryzx

Here's a little 'light reading' about errors etc. from: 

Tax Agency - For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness... dated 17 December?


_For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness in its declaration constitute a tax offence as established in section number 2 of the eighteenth additional provision of General Tax Law 58/2003, dated 17 December?

Here we analyse which information or groups of information that when omitted or inaccurately, incompletely, or falsely declared constitute the existence of a tax offence, in relation to each of the three obligations to declare included in Form 720.

With regard to the obligation laid out in article 42 bis of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 42 bis.6 of the aforementioned General Regulation for every declared register.
The trade name or complete denomination of the bank or credit entity and its address constitute a "group of information."

It shall be understood that the "address" has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the entity.
The complete identification of the account is also considered a group of information.

Complete identification of the account means: the determination of whether the code identifying said account is an IBAN code or a different code ("account identification key"), as well as completing the account code ("account code").
"The date of opening or cancellation, or, if applicable, the dates of concession and revocation of the authorisation."

Each of these dates constitutes a piece of information.
The balance of the account as of 31 December, as well as the average balance corresponding to the last quarter. Each constitute a piece of information.
However, in the case of cancellation or revocation of the status of taxpayer on the account, the taxpayer should declare the balance on the date of the cessation of said status.
With regard to the obligation laid out in article 42 ter of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 42 ter.7 of the aforementioned General Regulation.

In the case of the values enumerated in letters i), ii) and iii) of article 42 ter.1 of the mentioned General Regulation, the following will be considered for each:
Group of information: the trade name or complete denomination of the legal entity, of the third-party assignee, or identification of the instrument or legal relation, as appropriate, as well as its address.
Information: the balances of each of these values as of 31 December . In the case of of cessation of the status of holder or real owner, instead the balance as of the date of this cessation should be declared.

In the case of the shares and stocks in the share capital or equity fund of unit trust institutions situated abroad:
Group of information: the trade name or complete denomination of the unit trust institution and its address constitute a "group of information."
The cash value as of 31 December constitutes a piece of information. In the case of of cessation of the status of holder or real owner, instead the cash value as of the date of this cessation should be declared.

With regard to the goods listed in article 42 ter of the General Regulation (life or disability insurance and temporary incomes or annuities):
Group of information: the complete denomination of the insurance company and its address.
The surrender value of the insurances as of 31 December, and the capitalization value of the temporary incomes or annuities as of 31 December are considered pieces of information.

In all these cases it will be understood that the "address" has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the entity.
With regard to the obligation laid out in article 54 bis of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 54 bis.8 of the aforementioned General Regulation for every declared register.

With regard to the ownership of properties:
The identification of the building with a succinct specification of its typology constitutes a piece of information. To these effects, the taxpayer is required to indicate if it is a an urban or rural property.
The location of the building: the country or territory in which it is located, the town, street and number, all constitute a piece of information.

Therefore, for the purpose of specifying the location, the taxpayer must determine: country, town, street and number. It shall be understood that the location has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the property being declared.
The acquisition date of the ownership constitutes a piece of information.
The acquisition price of the property constitutes a piece of information.
In the cases of "cancellation/transfer" of the property, "the cancellation date" and the "transfer value" also constitute pieces of information.

With regard to time-share, partial ownership, or similar contracts, and with regard to the ownership of rights in rem of use or enjoyment and ownership without usufruct on properties located abroad.
The identification of the building with a succinct specification of its typology constitutes a piece of information. To these effects, the taxpayer is required to indicate if it is a an urban or rural property.
The location of the building: the country or territory in which it is located, the town, street and number, all constitute a piece of information.

Therefore, for the purpose of specifying the location, the taxpayer must determine: country, town, street and number. It shall be understood that the location has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the property being declared.
The acquisition date of these rights constitutes a piece of information.
The value of these rights/ownerships as of 31 December .
In the case of "cancellation/transfer" of these ownerships, "the cancellation date" and the "transfer value" also constitute pieces of information.

_


----------



## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Hi Mary. I don't think anyone is getting things mixed up here; we're talking about different issues as they relate to the Modelo 720, including how it relates to filing income tax.


As I understand it though Modelo 720 per se doesn't ask for details of income, just a statement of assets.
But quite a few people think that you have to submit details of income, which for that specific purpose you don't.
I agree that sorting out your tax when you are subject as I believe we both are to DTOs on part of our income can be confusing but as I am totally dim where numbers are concerned - I feel safer with words - I have to rely on someone more qualified to sort things out for me and hope they know what they are doing. And as it seems to be your experience, it's not that expensive to find someone who is experienced in these areas. I think you mentioned 60 euros, round here it's about 100 euros. Money well spent, imo.
People tend to complain about Hacienda but I can tell you from experience that dealing with HMRC can be an equal nightmare. After sending me bills for allegedly unpaid tax for over three years and refusing to tell me how this calculation was arrived at, HMRC have now , out of the blue, announced that they owe me money......
My few dealings with Revenue Canada were comparatively efficient and very civilised.

My main point though is that imo and it's just my opinion, people have been unnecessarily scared by Modelo 720. It's even been portrayed as a wicked tax aimed solely at filching the assets of Brits which of course it isn't as it applies to everyone resident in Spain. Requiring all assets to be reported is common to all tax authorities as assets nearly always produce revenue in some form or other and many people have revenue=producing assets thy don't declare on their 'normal' tax form.
Modelo 720 could be seen as smoking such people out.

I am like you, I have no assets that need reporting, I did a few years back but I spent it all. My OH does and will be reporting as required and sleeping easily thereafter.


----------



## mrypg9

larryzx said:


> Here's a little 'light reading' about errors etc. from:
> 
> Tax Agency - For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness... dated 17 December?
> 
> 
> _For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness in its declaration constitute a tax offence as established in section number 2 of the eighteenth additional provision of General Tax Law 58/2003, dated 17 December?
> 
> Here we analyse which information or groups of information that when omitted or inaccurately, incompletely, or falsely declared constitute the existence of a tax offence, in relation to each of the three obligations to declare included in Form 720.
> 
> With regard to the obligation laid out in article 42 bis of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 42 bis.6 of the aforementioned General Regulation for every declared register.
> The trade name or complete denomination of the bank or credit entity and its address constitute a "group of information."
> 
> It shall be understood that the "address" has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the entity.
> The complete identification of the account is also considered a group of information.
> 
> Complete identification of the account means: the determination of whether the code identifying said account is an IBAN code or a different code ("account identification key"), as well as completing the account code ("account code").
> "The date of opening or cancellation, or, if applicable, the dates of concession and revocation of the authorisation."
> 
> Each of these dates constitutes a piece of information.
> The balance of the account as of 31 December, as well as the average balance corresponding to the last quarter. Each constitute a piece of information.
> However, in the case of cancellation or revocation of the status of taxpayer on the account, the taxpayer should declare the balance on the date of the cessation of said status.
> With regard to the obligation laid out in article 42 ter of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 42 ter.7 of the aforementioned General Regulation.
> 
> In the case of the values enumerated in letters i), ii) and iii) of article 42 ter.1 of the mentioned General Regulation, the following will be considered for each:
> Group of information: the trade name or complete denomination of the legal entity, of the third-party assignee, or identification of the instrument or legal relation, as appropriate, as well as its address.
> Information: the balances of each of these values as of 31 December . In the case of of cessation of the status of holder or real owner, instead the balance as of the date of this cessation should be declared.
> 
> In the case of the shares and stocks in the share capital or equity fund of unit trust institutions situated abroad:
> Group of information: the trade name or complete denomination of the unit trust institution and its address constitute a "group of information."
> The cash value as of 31 December constitutes a piece of information. In the case of of cessation of the status of holder or real owner, instead the cash value as of the date of this cessation should be declared.
> 
> With regard to the goods listed in article 42 ter of the General Regulation (life or disability insurance and temporary incomes or annuities):
> Group of information: the complete denomination of the insurance company and its address.
> The surrender value of the insurances as of 31 December, and the capitalization value of the temporary incomes or annuities as of 31 December are considered pieces of information.
> 
> In all these cases it will be understood that the "address" has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the entity.
> With regard to the obligation laid out in article 54 bis of the General Regulation approved by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July, said information or groups of information have been established in article 54 bis.8 of the aforementioned General Regulation for every declared register.
> 
> With regard to the ownership of properties:
> The identification of the building with a succinct specification of its typology constitutes a piece of information. To these effects, the taxpayer is required to indicate if it is a an urban or rural property.
> The location of the building: the country or territory in which it is located, the town, street and number, all constitute a piece of information.
> 
> Therefore, for the purpose of specifying the location, the taxpayer must determine: country, town, street and number. It shall be understood that the location has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the property being declared.
> The acquisition date of the ownership constitutes a piece of information.
> The acquisition price of the property constitutes a piece of information.
> In the cases of "cancellation/transfer" of the property, "the cancellation date" and the "transfer value" also constitute pieces of information.
> 
> With regard to time-share, partial ownership, or similar contracts, and with regard to the ownership of rights in rem of use or enjoyment and ownership without usufruct on properties located abroad.
> The identification of the building with a succinct specification of its typology constitutes a piece of information. To these effects, the taxpayer is required to indicate if it is a an urban or rural property.
> The location of the building: the country or territory in which it is located, the town, street and number, all constitute a piece of information.
> 
> Therefore, for the purpose of specifying the location, the taxpayer must determine: country, town, street and number. It shall be understood that the location has been incompletely or inaccurately declared when the information provided does not allow for determining the specific location of the property being declared.
> The acquisition date of these rights constitutes a piece of information.
> The value of these rights/ownerships as of 31 December .
> In the case of "cancellation/transfer" of these ownerships, "the cancellation date" and the "transfer value" also constitute pieces of information.
> 
> _


Why do I doubt that anyone will bother reading all that....


----------



## extranjero

I do agree that people have been unnecessarily scared not least by certain financial advisors who advertise in the free expat press.
My accountant is of the opinion that many people are sweating over every little insignificant detail, which actually does not need a new declaration
The three categories which all these firms show are open to interpretation by an experienced accountant, and what you and I think has to be reported doesn't, which is why it's best to let someone else do it, but insist it is rechecked before submission in case of human error!
If the Hacienda were to fine someone the minimum fine of10000 euros, for some minor, inadvertent mistake, I think there would be a massive outcry, no one would want to move here, there would be an appeal to the EU( apart from the present protest)
Surely Spain wants to get out of its economic mess, not add to it by scaring investors away.
Even the pensioners with modest incomes add a significant amount to the economy!


----------



## larryzx

mrypg9 said:


> Carrying on about draconian penalties *when no-one can produce evidence* that any have actually been issued seems to me to be unnecessarily scaremongering, Daily.


The following is an extract,(Bing Translated for speed) however, some may like to read all the info which can be found at:- 
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/sta...los/720/Recopilacion_preguntas_frecuentes.pdf

Extract
Question 66
:
In the case of be missing disclosure statement, model 720,
existing obligation to submit it to the three obligations of information
about:
-
accounts in financial institutions situated abroad;
-
values, rights, insurance and income deposited, managed or obtained in
abroad;
-
real estate and rights in immovable property situated in the
overseas.

What would be the minimum penalty that would be imposed by the lack of presentation?

And in the case that only exists obligation to submit the model 720 with respect
one of the obligations of information. What would be the minimum penalty that is?
do you impose?.

Response
: *The minimum penalty *for the lack of presentation of the model 720 in the first
cases, which are violated the three obligations of information, *would be of
30,000€.*

In the second case, in which the breach of a *single information obligation, the
minimum penalty is €10,000.*


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> As I understand it though Modelo 720 per se doesn't ask for details of income, just a statement of assets.
> But quite a few people think that you have to submit details of income, which for that specific purpose you don't.


Yes, we covered that earlier in the thread, that the purpose of Modelo 720 is to provide info on assets, which is assessed for wealth tax. And we covered that the Modelo 720 is a separate from income and income tax. 



mrypg9 said:


> I agree that sorting out your tax when you are subject as I believe we both are to DTOs on part of our income can be confusing but as I am totally dim where numbers are concerned - I feel safer with words - I have to rely on someone more qualified to sort things out for me and hope they know what they are doing. And as it seems to be your experience, it's not that expensive to find someone who is experienced in these areas. I think you mentioned 60 euros, round here it's about 100 euros. Money well spent, imo.


What's DTOs? The 60 euros is only for a consult, not for doing the form. But my hope is that I can come in with all the info required for the form, so that they can do it easily, which will reduce the cost. So I have no idea yet how much I'm going to pay.



mrypg9 said:


> People tend to complain about Hacienda but I can tell you from experience that dealing with HMRC can be an equal nightmare. After sending me bills for allegedly unpaid tax for over three years and refusing to tell me how this calculation was arrived at, HMRC have now , out of the blue, announced that they owe me money......
> My few dealings with Revenue Canada were comparatively efficient and very civilised.


Your experience with Revenue Canada is unusual. They're a nightmare to deal with. I've had similar experiences with Revenue Canada as you describe with HMRC, which was due to a retroactive disability government tax credit that I was awarded that kept generating reassessment after reassessment that no one understood, resulting in my having to pay one bill after another. Another example is that someone - and no one can figure out who did it - entered me as a nonresident of Canada and the computer has been generating Revenue Canada taxes owed since October. I haven't even had the determination of nonresidency made yet! And they can't undo it. Or how about that before my residency being determined, I have been slapped with a 10% nonresidency withholding tax? Nightmare stories about Revenue Canada are commonplace. Anyway... Like I said, it's always sexy to complain about The Taxman. I hope you find me sexy enough. 



mrypg9 said:


> My main point though is that imo and it's just my opinion, people have been unnecessarily scared by Modelo 720. It's even been portrayed as a wicked tax aimed solely at filching the assets of Brits which of course it isn't as it applies to everyone resident in Spain. Requiring all assets to be reported is common to all tax authorities as assets nearly always produce revenue in some form or other and many people have revenue=producing assets thy don't declare on their 'normal' tax form.
> Modelo 720 could be seen as smoking such people out.
> 
> I am like you, I have no assets that need reporting, I did a few years back but I spent it all. My OH does and will be reporting as required and sleeping easily thereafter.


I'm really, really happy that I made the decision to get professional help. I like that about myself, that I readily admit when I'm out of my league and don't know what I'm talking about. 

I take your main point. Thank you for putting me at ease.

I hope your meeting goes well and that you have super-delicious coffee afterwards.


----------



## larryzx

On the cost of the 720.

My gestor has charged me 50 euros for doing the 720's for myself and my wife (one charge). Although to be fair to others, I provided the info she required so she had nothing to do but complete the simple forms. Last year I just wrote the revised amounts on the copies of the previous year’s declaration, and typed up the new declarations.

I am in the process of getting registered so that I can in future do the return myself on-line.

I will also be able to pay online the 4 non-resident returns which I do each year for my son and his wife. However, although I have done our annual tax return in years passed, for the past couple I had my gestor do them. That is 70 euros, for either two separate or a joint return, well spent. 

NB My 720’s have not require a signature, thus who would be responsible for any errors, me or the gestor, is debatable. That is any unlike the income tax declarations, which I have always been required to sign, thus making myself responsible for the info declared.


----------



## extranjero

My accountant said she is responsible


----------



## angkag

I think the point that if Hacienda hands out a draconian fine for something minor there would be a shoot-storm, is a very valid one.

Any such instance would be catnip for the press, and the resulting publicity would inevitably dissuade people from coming to, or remaining, in Spain.

I'm hoping/assuming Hacienda has just given itself the legal means to apply meaningful penalties where it finds serious irregularities in reporting which were clearly intended to avoid tax. In such instance, the press would have little to work with as it would look like fair penalty for instances where there was clear intent.


----------



## AllHeart

Going back to a previous question I had... Does anyone know if government pensions are to be put as assets on the Modelo 720?


----------



## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> Going back to a previous question I had... Does anyone know if government pensions are to be put as assets on the Modelo 720?


I have in effect two government pensions. As they are income they are taxed as income . My pensions have no value other than what I am paid by means of my pension cheques. Thus, in my case, they have no connection with the 720 declarations.


----------



## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> I have in effect two government pensions. As they are income they are taxed as income . My pensions have no value other than what I am paid by means of my pension cheques. Thus, in my case, they have no connection with the 720 declarations.


Thank you, Larry. That's the same situation I'm in, so that's a relief to know I don't have to figure out how to do that. Phew!


----------



## mrypg9

larryzx said:


> The following is an extract,(Bing Translated for speed) however, some may like to read all the info which can be found at:-
> http://www.agenciatributaria.es/sta...los/720/Recopilacion_preguntas_frecuentes.pdf
> 
> Extract
> Question 66
> :
> In the case of be missing disclosure statement, model 720,
> existing obligation to submit it to the three obligations of information
> about:
> -
> accounts in financial institutions situated abroad;
> -
> values, rights, insurance and income deposited, managed or obtained in
> abroad;
> -
> real estate and rights in immovable property situated in the
> overseas.
> 
> What would be the minimum penalty that would be imposed by the lack of presentation?
> 
> And in the case that only exists obligation to submit the model 720 with respect
> one of the obligations of information. What would be the minimum penalty that is?
> do you impose?.
> 
> Response
> : *The minimum penalty *for the lack of presentation of the model 720 in the first
> cases, which are violated the three obligations of information, *would be of
> 30,000€.*
> 
> In the second case, in which the breach of a *single information obligation, the
> minimum penalty is €10,000.*


You have completely missed the point....We all know about the stated penalties. But I have seen no evidence as yet that they have been applied.
Angkag's post puts the situation in perspective.
Cutting and pasting great chunks of info which few will read and which we can find out for ourselves should we wish is not always helpful in clarifying situations.
What is helpful are simple, straightforward comments from posters like Xabia and Snikpoh.


----------



## larryzx

mrypg9 said:


> *You have completely missed the point..*..We all *know about the stated penalties*.  But I have seen no evidence as yet that they have been applied.
> Angkag's post puts the situation in perspective.
> Cutting and pasting great chunks of info which few will read and which we can find out for ourselves should we wish is not always helpful in clarifying situations.
> What is helpful are simple, straightforward comments from posters like Xabia and Snikpoh.


Sorry Mary, had not realised you had joined your friends, whom you mention, and are now a moderator.

When you said, quote from post 110, "Carrying on about draconian penalties *when no-one can produce evidence that any have actually been issued * I thought some might be lead to think that the penalties do not actually exist, that was why I posted as I did.

A Financial Lawyer I know has told me, Danish and Finnish clients of his have been seeking his help following letters from AEAT about property they have not declared which they have in their home countries. 

He said he understood AEAT were working their way around Europe investigating failures to disclose. I have no way to know if he is correct, although he is in a position to know. However, correct or not, like you, I have fully disclosed as required.


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> You have completely missed the point....We all know about the stated penalties. But I have seen no evidence as yet that they have been applied.
> Angkag's post puts the situation in perspective.
> Cutting and pasting great chunks of info which few will read and which we can find out for ourselves should we wish is not always helpful in clarifying situations.
> What is helpful are simple, straightforward comments from posters like Xabia and Snikpoh.


I actually found it helpful, especially for the information required for the annuity. I was just too peed off to say thank you. Thank you, Larry.


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> Sorry Mary, had not realised you had joined your friends, whom you mention, and are now a moderator.


Larry, Mary is just giving you constructive criticism, like I did, but in a more polite way. Take it or leave it.


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## AllHeart

The section that interests me on the link that Larry gave (Tax Agency - For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness... dated 17 December?) is where they talk about the annuities:

_"With regard to the goods listed in article 42 ter of the General Regulation (life or disability insurance and temporary incomes or annuities):

-Group of information: the complete denomination of the insurance company and its address.

-The surrender value of the insurances as of 31 December, and the capitalization value of the temporary incomes or annuities as of 31 December are considered pieces of information."_

I'm still hoping that I don't have to fill out the Modelo 720 because, as I explained earlier, I myself cannot cash this out, but my only option is monthly payments. Only the beneficiary has the option of cashing this out. So to my way of thinking, this is not an asset, but only an income for income tax - like my pension. So I'm hoping to figure that out by Monday's meeting. Perhaps someone can help me figure this out? In the above quote, they refer to annuities as being under Article 42 ter of the General Regulation. My thinking is this is where they will give more info on the annuity criteria. Does anyone know where this is on the net? Is it available in English?


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## larryzx

Allheart. I Googled "AEATarticle 42 ter of the General Regulation"

I had a lot of results come up. Maybe you can find what you need amongst them.

Good luck


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> Allheart. I Googled "AEATarticle 42 ter of the General Regulation"
> 
> I had a lot of results come up. Maybe you can find what you need amongst them.
> 
> Good luck


Yes, me too, and there are over 17 million hits.  Perhaps it's better for me to take a step backwards and ask these questions...

What is the name of the law? 

What does 42 ter mean?

That way I can google the law more specifically and get a more refined hit.


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## larryzx

From my Google; 

_This obligation to inform is regulated in article 42 bis of the General Regulation of the tax management and audit measures and procedures, and implementing the common rules of the tax application procedures, passed by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July._


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> From my Google;
> 
> _This obligation to inform is regulated in article 42 bis of the General Regulation of the tax management and audit measures and procedures, and implementing the common rules of the tax application procedures, passed by Royal Decree 1065/2007, dated 27 July._


Thank you. It's too much for me. I'm having problems reading today. When I get overwhelmed or anxious, I have problems reading. So I've decided to not do any more research for the Monday meeting, and instead just find out the answers in the meeting. I'm just going to chill out for the rest of the weekend. Again, thank you for your help.


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## extranjero

AllHeart said:


> The section that interests me on the link that Larry gave (Tax Agency - For which information or group of information does omission, inaccuracy, falseness or incompleteness... dated 17 December?) is where they talk about the annuities:
> 
> _"With regard to the goods listed in article 42 ter of the General Regulation (life or disability insurance and temporary incomes or annuities):
> 
> -Group of information: the complete denomination of the insurance company and its address.
> 
> -The surrender value of the insurances as of 31 December, and the capitalization value of the temporary incomes or annuities as of 31 December are considered pieces of information."_
> 
> I'm still hoping that I don't have to fill out the Modelo 720 because, as I explained earlier, I myself cannot cash this out, but my only option is monthly payments. Only the beneficiary has the option of cashing this out. So to my way of thinking, this is not an asset, but only an income for income tax - like my pension. So I'm hoping to figure that out by Monday's meeting. Perhaps someone can help me figure this out? In the above quote, they refer to annuities as being under Article 42 ter of the General Regulation. My thinking is this is where they will give more info on the annuity criteria. Does anyone know where this is on the net? Is it available in English?


What You have described about your annuity, is similar to how my accountant explained it to me
Things are not as black and white as they appear in these articles by financial advisors in the free pat press


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> What You have described about your annuity, is similar to how my accountant explained it to me


Good afternoon, Extranjero. So did he/she say you don't need to put this type of an annuity on the Modelo 720?



extranjero said:


> Things are not as black and white as they appear in these articles by financial advisors in the free pat press


What does free pat press mean?  ...I do get what you're saying that it's complicated and not straightforward. I know I'm way the heck out of my league here in trying to understand tax laws in a new country. Argh!


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## extranjero

AllHeart said:


> Good afternoon, Extranjero. So did he/she say you don't need to put this type of an annuity on the Modelo 720?
> 
> 
> 
> What does free pat press mean?  ...I do get what you're saying that it's complicated and not straightforward. I know I'm way the heck out of my league here in trying to understand tax laws in a new country. Argh!


Yes, that's what she said, but I'm afraid different "experts " say different things. 
You will have to see what your accountant thinks. Mine has been doing tax affairs for 20 years, and having had bad advice in the past I have decided to stick with her.
Free press means free newspapers for ex pats
Round Town News
The Leader
Euro Weekly news
The Courier
Sol Times
To name a few, available at commercial centres with large concentration of ex pats


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Yes, that's what she said, but I'm afraid different "experts " say different things.
> You will have to see what your accountant thinks. Mine has been doing tax affairs for 20 years, and having had bad advice in the past I have decided to stick with her.
> Free press means free newspapers for ex pats
> Round Town News
> The Leader
> Euro Weekly news
> The Courier
> Sol Times
> To name a few, available at commercial centres with large concentration of ex pats


Yes, that's my experience with the Canadian tax laws too - that different experts say different things. There is a lot of gray area with laws.

You're making me think of a question I asked a while back in this thread... So does economista mean accountant? The guy I'm meeting on Monday is an economista. I hung out with the family last night and my cousin's son explained what is meant by economista. I couldn't understand most of it, but he said he's not a gestor, but someone who specialises in money matters. Is this an accountant that I'm meeting?


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## larryzx

Allheart I googled it.

Take a look here Economista - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

I hate to be a pessimist but frankly in Spain to get the correct answer is difficult no matter who you ask. I tell people go to the person whom you think is OK, believe what they say and never ask anyone about the same thing. 

Result: happiness


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> Allheart I googled it.
> 
> Take a look here Economista - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
> 
> I hate to be a pessimist but frankly in Spain to get the correct answer is difficult no matter who you ask. I tell people go to the person whom you think is OK, believe what they say and never ask anyone about the same thing.
> 
> Result: happiness


But that's in Spanish again, which I'm not too polished on. From what I understand from this and what my cousin's son explained, an economist is an accountant. But the Spanish-English translation tools give economist as the translation for economista and accountant as contador. So I'm thinking it might be a different field. :confused2:

Your method to achieving happiness in Spain is hilarious! Given my limited experience in this world, I'm thinking that just may be an international recipe for happiness.


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## AllHeart

The obvious escaped me. So I looked up economist in English, and here it is, in case anyone else is interested:

Economist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## el romeral

So if somebody has no assets outside of Spain worth > 50000€ and a bank account with comfortably < 50000€ in it, then they do not need to fill in this form?


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## AllHeart

el romeral said:


> So if somebody has no assets outside of Spain worth > 50000€ and a bank account with comfortably < 50000€ in it, then they do not need to fill in this form?


Wow is that ever a perfectly worded description! I'm not an authority, but that's exactly how I understand it. Hopefully someone else can give us a solid yes.


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## angkag

el romeral said:


> So if somebody has no assets outside of Spain worth > 50000€ and a bank account with comfortably < 50000€ in it, then they do not need to fill in this form?


Correct.

But to be precise, the SUM of all deposits in bank accounts outside of Spain must be less than 50,000 Euro. So if you had a few other bank accounts, each with less than 50,000, but where the total added up to over 50,000, then need declare all of them.


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## el romeral

angkag said:


> Correct.
> 
> But to be precise, the SUM of all deposits in bank accounts outside of Spain must be less than 50,000 Euro. So if you had a few other bank accounts, each with less than 50,000, but where the total added up to over 50,000, then need declare all of them.


Great thanks, one less thing to worry about :roll:


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Wow is that ever a perfectly worded description! I'm not an authority, but that's exactly how I understand it. Hopefully someone else can give us a solid yes.


Yes....Solid as a ton of bricks! And yes, the simplist answers are correct, as I said in my last post.

50k euros however spread out is the important sum. Less than that and you don't need Modelo 720, you just fill in your normal income tax return.


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> But that's in Spanish again, which I'm not too polished on. From what I understand from this and what my cousin's son explained, an economist is an accountant. But the Spanish-English translation tools give economist as the translation for economista and accountant as contador. So I'm thinking it might be a different field. :confused2:


It's probably short for _abogado economista_, a professional trained in financial law.

_Contador _ for accountant is more common in the Americas. In Spain it's a meter for water, electricity etc. An accountant would I think be described as an _asesor fiscal_.


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## AllHeart

angkag said:


> Correct.
> 
> But to be precise, the SUM of all deposits in bank accounts outside of Spain must be less than 50,000 Euro. So if you had a few other bank accounts, each with less than 50,000, but where the total added up to over 50,000, then need declare all of them.


On looking at this again, I'm thinking... 

Isn't a bank account considered an asset? So it is the total of all assets (including bank accounts, annuities, land, houses, businesses, etc) must be less than 50,000 euros?

P.S. Mary, I hope that wasn't too long


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> It's probably short for _abogado economista_, a professional trained in financial law.
> 
> _Contador _ for accountant is more common in the Americas. In Spain it's a meter for water, electricity etc. An accountant would I think be described as an _asesor fiscal_.


No, they're two different professions. Abogado is lawyer. Economista is economist. I spoke with a lawyer in the firm, who set me up with the economist. He was very clear that these are two different professions, as was my cousin's son when he explained it to me. 

So I just got back from my meeting with the economist, and he said whether or not I should file for my annuity given it has no cash value to me is a very good question and not straightforward. So he's looking into the law right now, and will get back to me, while I have to contact my insurance broker in Canada to get the documents about the annuity. He said if it is not clear in the law as to whether or not I should file, we will err on the safe side by filing the Modelo 720.

Thanks to all of you for helping me prepare me for the meeting.


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## extranjero

Allheart- if the total of assets in any one category adds up to more than50 k euros you do not have to submit.
If the assets are jointly owned , with less than 50 k each, but the total is more than 50 k euros you still have to submit.
Where many might slip up, especially with the exchange rate, is not realising that their assets which previously were under 50 k , are now more when converted to euros.


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Allheart- if the total of assets in any one category adds up to more than50 k euros you do not have to submit.
> If the assets are jointly owned , with less than 50 k each, but the total is more than 50 k euros you still have to submit.
> Where many might slip up, especially with the exchange rate, is not realising that their assets which previously were under 50 k , are now more when converted to euros.


Oh, I didn't know that. So what I said in my last post is wrong. Thank you for clarifying that. 

This brings me to my next question... I understand that once I have hit over 50,000 in one category (that being my annuity), I have to submit all my assets in all categories, even if they are less than 50,000 euros. Is that correct? So for me, that means I had two bank accounts in Canada in 2014 that had way less than 50,000 euros, but I have to provide all the information on those bank accounts too - if they deem that I need to file based on my annuity. Is that correct?


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## larryzx

One must make a declaration for the* group* *or groups *which have a value of 50,000 euros or more.  

So if that applies to only one group then for THAT group only.


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> One must make a declaration for the* group* *or groups *which have a value of 50,000 euros or more.
> 
> So if that applies to only one group then for THAT group only.


Thank you. Do you know where I can find a list of the groups? Please.


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## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> Thank you. Do you know where I can find a list of the groups? Please.


I Googled it (modelo 720 what are the groups) and got lots of results this is one

Expats In Spain: Modelo 720 And New Dislosure Requirements - Tax - Spain
/Expats+In+Spain+Modelo+720+And+New+Dislosure+Requirements

Modelo 720 requires each tax resident to report on an annual basis assets in various categories including *investments*, *deposits* and *real estate* where the combined value in each category exceeds 50,000 Euros.


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## AllHeart

Larrynx, your link didn't give the categories. But I found them on another site, and hope these are correct:

1. Accounts in any kind of financial institution e.g. banks, building societies.

2. 
a) Investments/ rights of representation in foreign companies or other entities. 

b) Investments in foreign collective investment institutions (e.g. unit trusts). 

c) Foreign life/ invalidity insurance; income from foreign annuities.

3. Property and rights to property.

(From here: Modelo 720- Declaration of Foreign Assets (Declaración informativa sobre bienes y derechos situados en el extranjero). | Spain Accountants)

So bank accounts goes into Category 1. Annuities in Category 2. That saves me the work of getting the bank account details. Yay!


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## extranjero

extranjero said:


> Allheart- if the total of assets in any one category adds up to more than50 k euros you do not have to submit.
> If the assets are jointly owned , with less than 50 k each, but the total is more than 50 k euros you still have to submit.
> Where many might slip up, especially with the exchange rate, is not realising that their assets which previously were under 50 k , are now more when converted to euros.


Sorry for my mistake
The first line should read-if the total of assets in any one category adds up to more than 50 k you DO have to submit
The rest is correct( hopefully)
Watch the conversion to Euros, which might tip over the limit


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Sorry for my mistake
> The first line should read-if the total of assets in any one category adds up to more than 50 k you DO have to submit
> The rest is correct( hopefully)
> Watch the conversion to Euros, which might tip over the limit


Yes, I was in auto edit, and understood what you meant. 

I have and had very little in my bank - with or without the euro conversion. I had just enough savings to set up my apartment and live off of until my pension kicked in at the end of December. Fortunately I had spent a lot of energy selling my stuff in Canada before leaving, which was just enough savings. I had anticipated my pension to be retroactive to my last day of work (August 7), but it wasn't effective until four months after my last day of work, leaving me four months short of pension income. Also I was expecting a government reimbursement for medical expenses totalling over $2,000, but I was denied a refund. Anyway, that's my sob story of how I absolutely positively do not measure up to be of any worth in Category 1.


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## extranjero

Hopefully your accountant will reassure you about the 720
The more you read about it the more complicated it becomes


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Hopefully your accountant will reassure you about the 720


Thank you.



extranjero said:


> The more you read about it the more complicated it becomes


What a concise definition of law.


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> No, they're two different professions. Abogado is lawyer. Economista is economist. I spoke with a lawyer in the firm, who set me up with the economist. He was very clear that these are two different professions, as was my cousin's son when he explained it to me.


Nonetheless, there is a profession known colloquially as _abogado economista_. You can get a degree in it.

Licenciatura en Derecho + Especialidad Económica - Bilbao - Universidad de Deusto - Cursosycarreras.es


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> On looking at this again, I'm thinking...
> 
> Isn't a bank account considered an asset? So it is the total of all assets (including bank accounts, annuities, land, houses, businesses, etc) must be less than 50,000 euros?
> 
> P.S. Mary, I hope that wasn't too long


Nope!!

But remember, you are only declaring assets, you don't need to include income.
Modelo 720 is a checklist, really....


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## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> Larrynx, your link didn't give the categories. But I found them on another site, and hope these are correct:
> 
> The quote I showed, *I copied and pasted from the link, *
> 
> It was : _Modelo 720 requires each tax resident to report on an annual basis assets in various categories including *investments, **deposits* *and real estate* where the combined value in each category exceeds 50,000 Euros. _
> 
> I put in bold the three categories so that you would not be confused.


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## extranjero

AllHeart said:


> On looking at this again, I'm thinking...
> 
> Isn't a bank account considered an asset? So it is the total of all assets (including bank accounts, annuities, land, houses, businesses, etc) must be less than 50,000 euros?
> 
> P.S. Mary, I hope that wasn't too long


Allheart, the sum of assets in each category needs to be more than 50 k in order for a declaration to be made eg if all your different bank accounts in that category totalled 50 k plus, you would have to submit, or if you just had 1 bank account at 50 k plus, same
Then if you had several investments in that category totalling more than 50 k , same 
It all depends what you have in each category , not the total of assets overall


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> Allheart, the sum of assets in each category needs to be more than 50 k in order for a declaration to be made eg if all your different bank accounts in that category totalled 50 k plus, you would have to submit, or if you just had 1 bank account at 50 k plus, same
> Then if you had several investments in that category totalling more than 50 k , same
> It all depends what you have in each category , not the total of assets overall


Yes, I understood that from what you said before about the sum in categories. So that's why I looked at the tax categories, and listed them, seeing that bank accounts is in category #1, and annuities in #2. So I don't have enough to file my bank accounts under #1. Does that make sense now?


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## extranjero

I think so!
My brain is tired now!


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## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> AllHeart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larrynx, your link didn't give the categories. But I found them on another site, and hope these are correct:
> 
> The quote I showed, *I copied and pasted from the link, *
> 
> It was : _Modelo 720 requires each tax resident to report on an annual basis assets in various categories including *investments, **deposits* *and real estate* where the combined value in each category exceeds 50,000 Euros. _
> 
> I put in bold the three categories so that you would not be confused.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, including some categories just wasn't good enough for me.  I'm more pleased with what I quoted, which is more specific. Sorry if that offends you to not like your link; mine is superior to yours.
Click to expand...


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> I think so!
> My brain is tired now!


Mine too! And I haven't even started the form yet! Thinking on Monty Python's MY BRAIN HURTS!!!


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## larryzx

Allheart from what you tell us you do not have 50,000 euros in total in bank accounts outside Spain. * NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY* 

Nor do you own assets outside Spain, in the form of investment, stocks, share, painting, yacht etc. *NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY *

You do not own properties outside Spain valued at 50,000 euros. *NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY *


Those are the *three categories,* so relax, _*NO DECLARATIONS NEEDED*_


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Nonetheless, there is a profession known colloquially as _abogado economista_. You can get a degree in it.
> 
> Licenciatura en Derecho + Especialidad Económica - Bilbao - Universidad de Deusto - Cursosycarreras.es


That's in Spanish, so I can't comment on it other than to say perhaps this is a combination of both fields of study - law and economy.


----------



## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> Allheart from what you tell us you do not have 50,000 euros in total in bank accounts outside Spain. * NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY*
> 
> Nor do you own assets outside Spain, in the form of investment, stocks, share, painting, yacht etc. *NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY *
> 
> You do not own properties outside Spain valued at 50,000 euros. *NO DECLARATION FOR THAT CATEGORY *
> 
> 
> Those are the *three categories,* so relax, _*NO DECLARATIONS NEEDED*_




We're on page 17 of this thread and you still haven't understood what I'm talking about? I'm glad you're not my economist or lawyer or gestor! LOL!


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## larryzx

AllHeart said:


> We're on page 17 of this thread and you still haven't understood what I'm talking about? I'm glad you're not my economist or lawyer or gestor! LOL!


Your first question was "Does anyone know anything about this form?"

I really do think that questiion has been answered in just about every way it could and as I say at the end of the day:- 

Those are the three categories, so relax, FOR YOU, NO DECLARATIONS NEEDED

PS This is for sure my last page.


----------



## AllHeart

larryzx said:


> Your first question was "Does anyone know anything about this form?"
> 
> I really do think that questiion has been answered in just about every way it could and as I say at the end of the day:-
> 
> Those are the three categories, so relax, FOR YOU, NO DECLARATIONS NEEDED
> 
> PS This is for sure my last page.


So you're an authority over all the people in this thread and my lawyer and my economist and all the people behind all the material quoted in this thread? Did it occur to you that instead of you being right and everyone else being wrong that you may be missing something?


----------



## extranjero

I think Larry is trying to help you


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## AllHeart

extranjero said:


> I think Larry is trying to help you


I know so.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> So you're an authority over all the people in this thread and my lawyer and my economist and all the people behind all the material quoted in this thread? Did it occur to you that instead of you being right and everyone else being wrong that you may be missing something?


That's just rude. The poor guy's only trying to help! Have a break and come back when you're feeling calmer. :boxing:


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> That's just rude. The poor guy's only trying to help! Have a break and come back when you're feeling calmer. :boxing:


I don't think I'm being rude. I am simply calling Larry on what I said before, that he claims to be an authority over everyone else. I think this is being more than rude to completely dismiss 17 pages of discussion that boils down to one single topic: I have an annuity and annuities have to be claimed on Modelo 720. Telling me there is no such legislation is particularly rude. Screaming at me in bold and capped fonts is particularly rude. Telling me to relax based on his conclusion is particularly rude. 

_Rude: ill-mannered, bad-mannered, impolite, discourteous, impertinent, insolent, impudent, cheeky, audacious, presumptuous, uncivil, disrespectful, unmannerly, ill-bred, churlish, crass, curt, brusque, blunt, ungracious, graceless, brash, unpleasant, disagreeable, offhand, short, sharp;_


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## jojo

I'm going to close this thread until everyone has calmed down. Rude posts need to be reported 

Jo xxx


----------

