# Buying Land/Building in Irapuato, GTO, Mexico



## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

I have read a good deal of info on this forum and other places about buying a home or land in Mexico. I plan to buy land in a few months in Irapuato. Over the next year or two I plan to begin building. My plan is to eventually retire there (in about 10-12 years), but I visit annually at the moment, and will continue to do so, spending more time there over the next decade. It will be a home base for ongoing central and south american adventures. My friend and I are planning to tour central america via motorcycle in the years to come.

I know that Irapuato is not in the "restricted zone" where I would have to use a bank to put the deed in a trust, but are there any other concerns with buying (particularly in this area) that I should be aware of?

I know that I need a lawyer to help with the purchase, as real-estate agents are not what we think they are by US standards. Does anyone have a (preferably bi-lingual) lawyer they have worked with and trust in this area that they can recommend?

Any other suggestions/comments/concerns?


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## Ken Wood (Oct 22, 2011)

Jallenb, 

First, welcome, and, we share a few similarities. I'm an old north sloper who recently, 2011, retired to Mexico. I am currently in Querétaro, but have purcased land and nearly finished costruction of a house in Celaya, GTO. We used a notario instead of a lawyer to guide us through the land purchase. One important thing we learned was that the notario is only as good as his records research crew. Our situation ended just fine, but, the next time I do this, I'll do more than just trust his stamp that all is well.

Something I would also recommend is that you educate yourself on the term "Ejido". Our land was once ejido land, and we knew this going in, and everything ended up OK. There are others, good people, who would never touch ejido land. I disagree, and am comfortable with my legal papers. 

I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of the purchase in detail with you after you earn PM privileges; they come after a few more posts. 

Good luck to you, and I hope your GTO experience is as rewarding as ours has been.

PS -- If you run into a medical technician there who calls himself Buck Naked, tell him Big Kenny said hello.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

What you need is a Norario ... not just a lawyer. If you want out in the country there is still Ejido land that you would need a presta nombre (Mexican owner) for. Make sure there are no family disputes over who owns the land. Consider electric and water access


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks Ken and Sparks.

My understanding of Ejido land is that it is government owned and trusted to a local group (generally indigenous) to cultivate for subsistence. Is that correct?

What are some concerns regarding Ejido land? I do not believe the area I am looking at is Ejido (north side of Irapuato, off of Arrandas), but if it was, what is the concern there?

I have passed through Celaya and Salamanca, but have spent most of my time in Irapuato, Guanajauto, with day trips to Leon, San Miguel, Guadalajara, and Janitzio.


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

My understanding is also that the Ejido land rules of the government has changed a lot, sometimes dramatically, and in a back and forth fashion over time. Some changes as recent as the 90s or later?

I was reading up on the rebellion of sorts in Chiapas that happened a decade or two ago. That is where I learned anything I know about the subject.


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

On a related note, I hear Chiapas is a great tourist destination with astounding natural beauty. Can anyone provide any information/suggestions on what to do if we make a trip down there; or any suggestions on awesome places to go in central/southern mexico?


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## Ken Wood (Oct 22, 2011)

jallenb74 said:


> My understanding is also that the Ejido land rules of the government has changed a lot, sometimes dramatically, and in a back and forth fashion over time. Some changes as recent as the 90s or later?


...and therein lies the problem, the back and forth fashion of regulating ejido land. As I said, I am comfortable with the way I purchased my land, but, others fear that a future decision around ejido land could muddy the deeds being handed out today. That would create havoc all over the country, and I'm betting my homestead that it will not happen.

By the way, Buck Naked is out of Dutch Harbor, not Irapuato.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Ejido land is governed locally and property can be sold to Mexicans. Here in Jalisco there is a regional office in Guadalajara that is connected to the National Ejido Assoc. If you insist you can register your property with the regional office as well as the local.

Ejidos can petition to have portions of their lands normalized which means a Municipio title rather than just an Ejido title. Normalizations can take years. As communities grow they usually expand the normalization and each lot/property has to pay the Ejido to get out.

For a ****** to buy Ejido they need a trusted Mexican as the "presta nombre" (borrowed name) and then get a "carta de poder" (power of attorney) that gives you all rights. Presta nombres are usually paid up front or possibly at the time the property sells.

Mas o menos


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

sparks said:


> What you need is a Norario ... not just a lawyer. If you want out in the country there is still Ejido land that you would need a presta nombre (Mexican owner) for. Make sure there are no family disputes over who owns the land. Consider electric and water access


I very strongly disagree on this, "Presta nombres" are perfectly illegal in Mexico, you can get things done legally and without any problem usisng the services of a Notario público. 
Saludos


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

jallenb74 said:


> Thanks Ken and Sparks.
> 
> My understanding of Ejido land is that it is government owned and trusted to a local group (generally indigenous) to cultivate for subsistence. Is that correct?
> 
> ...


Your understanding is correct, Ejido lands cannot be sold, that´s the concern of not trying to buy those. The Notario will find out about the legal status of the property by checking at the Registro Publico de la Propiedad, it´s his business and you can trust that they (Notarios) will not let you do anything that can not or should not be done.

Saludos


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

jallenb74 said:


> Thanks Ken and Sparks.
> 
> My understanding of Ejido land is that it is government owned and trusted to a local group (generally indigenous) to cultivate for subsistence. Is that correct?
> 
> ...


I forgot to say that the Notario´s job is to make sure that the property is not an Ejido, if it is, to be fee of the Ejido status (then it would not be an Ejido) and if we let alone the Ejido subject, they have to make sure that everything is legal and correct for you to buy and register the property ib your name. 
I´ve been in the Construction and real estate business for over 23 yrs


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

So if I am reading all these posts correctly, I do not need a lawyer, and can get by with just a notario? If so, can anyone suggest a trustworthy notario in the Irapuato area?


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Do you know what Buck Naked's real name is? There is a good chance I know him. My ex-wife worked at the climic for awhile.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

GARYJ65 said:


> I very strongly disagree on this, "Presta nombres" are perfectly illegal in Mexico, you can get things done legally and without any problem usisng the services of a Notario público.
> Saludos


I along with 100's of gringos use presta nombres on the Jalisco coast ... it's common practice. And yes Ejido land can be sold to a Mexican citizen. Two Ejidos in our area have normalized but the average Mexican won't get a Municiple title because it costs money and yearly taxes. My Ejido has not normalized so I have a presta nombre. No other options here


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*Safer way to buy land in Mexico*

I do not know the area but have a couple of tips for you to watch out for buying land anywhere in Mexico.

1.) Go get a Lawyer to look in the records at the Capital of that State and determine if the Land is
Ejido Land or not? If so, acquaint yourself with the Laws pertaining to Ejidos before you buy. Many have bought land that's part of an Ejido and had no problems. Other's, well plenty of problems. We
have a nice couple here, he a ******, she originally from here, but worked in San Diego County Government Offices for 26 years and finally retired. Coming to Tepic they found land with fantastic views of the mountains and the City, but it was on an Ejido. They spent months and months researching titles before they bought. This Ejido, there were some notorious examples of some unscrupulous people selling vacant lots, reselling them, and reselling the same lot 4-5 times. Since you say you'll be returning to this area each year (and being from Dutch Harbor), I can believe that will be every winter? So, start doing your sleuthing.

2.) Before buying land in Mexico (anywhere), I'd hire two Notarios to research the land one final time before purchase. It's pretty much rural area? Then I'd hire a local Notario, and maybe one in the Capital of this State and see what they come up with? If everything is free and clear from both of them, then buy the land. If not - run like hell away from the purchase, as you will have nothing but headache after headache and legal expenses ever after. You see it's not unlike how you should buy property is States in the USA that don't have Title Insurance.

You see there are areas in Mexico, that I've witnessed in these tough times, that are just looking to file phony land claims using any excuse to gum up your works in order to try and pressure you to make some kind of settlement and they receive some of your money. I've even witnessed this in the posh Baja Mar Country Club when we used to live there and that was a huge development developed by the Government's own Sandader Development company. I've even seen it in my town here in Tepic (though rare).

3.) If rural land check to see what Indians live around there. Go talk to them (if you can) and make sure it's not part of some sacred land, burial ground or traverse path on sacred pilgrimages? If so make your peace with them up front - a whole lot easier.

On a separate note. Do you know my infamous, some times notorious cousin Jim Peet. Has a log cabin in Talketna, fishes in the summer with an all native crew for salmon out of Bristol Bay? His son's live in Anchorage. Just thought I'd check.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

You need to hire a lawer, Notarios ARE lawyers!
The Notario will handle the investigation for the legal status of the property and will let you know about it. You do not need 2 Notarios.
We do not have Indians in Mexico, in any case, they are Etnias, and they don´t have sacred grounds nor burial grounds.
You do not have to smoke the peace pipe with them or make them offers.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Yes, a notario is a kind of specialized lawyer who has undergone additional education and an understudy period to be granted notario status. They work in areas such as real estate and wills.

There is no relation at all to a notary public in the US.


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*If you want peace of mind?*

No, I definitely would go with the (2) Notario's, preferably they don't even know each other. Why?

You don't think even Notario's don't make mistakes? The Mexico courts are full of cases back logged for years on land claim disputes all over Mexico.

Think that if (2) of them come back with a clean title, no incumberances, no claims or prior suits or disputes of property lines - well then that's like the equivalent of Title Insurance in the USA.

You can own up to 200 hectares and your partner too, but the other 200 titled in his name. Your not going to spend a few hundred pesos for your peace of mind?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

I along with 100's of gringos use presta nombres on the Jalisco coast ... it's common practice. And yes Ejido land can be sold to a Mexican citizen. Two Ejidos in our area have normalized but the average Mexican won't get a Municiple title because it costs money and yearly taxes. My Ejido has not normalized so I have a presta nombre. No other options here 

Prestanombres are illegal;
strawman: a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction 
frontman: a person serving as a front or figurehead.
I know that they are used widely not only in Mexico, but still, they are illegal and working that way may very well lead to legal problems.
I do not recommend moving to Mexico and start doing odd things


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> I along with 100's of gringos use presta nombres on the Jalisco coast ... it's common practice. And yes Ejido land can be sold to a Mexican citizen. Two Ejidos in our area have normalized but the average Mexican won't get a Municiple title because it costs money and yearly taxes. My Ejido has not normalized so I have a presta nombre. No other options here
> 
> Prestanombres are illegal;
> strawman: a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction
> ...


And really, not because it´s common practice it´s legal 
It´s common practice the use of illegal drugs....


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

GARYJ65 said:


> And really, not because it´s common practice it´s legal
> It´s common practice the use of illegal drugs....


Apples an oranges .... relax. I and many other folk here are


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

I was curious since I had never heard of using a prestanombre to own land in the restricted zones.

I wanted to educate myself so I did some research. Caveat: I am not, nor would ever want to be, a lawyer.

Results? I don't believe I would ever even think of using a prestanombre.

The only site on the web that I could find that said using a prestanombre is OK is sparks' own site.
All others, including realty law sites in both Spanish and English, state one of two things:

1) That using a prestanombre has been illegal in the restricted zones since 1994 when the Fideicomiso was initiated.

Or, slightly more optimistically

2) Using a prestanombre, while not being outright illegal, is not quite legal either. In any land dispute you will have no legal recourse whatsoever and very well may lose your property. 

Neither situation sounds very good to me.

Sparks, I hope you are right for your sake but the overwhelming majority say that you and your friends are on dicey legal ground at best.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

We weren't originally talking about the restricted zone ... but any Ejido land. I only posted the correct way to do it if you do it. In my opinion Real Estate people have a vested interest in pointing people to more expensive properties which normalized bank trust (in the restricted zone) properties are. I have never seen a government document that states presta nombres are illegal.

The bottom line here for me is .... if everyone agrees (Notaries, Lawyers and the Ejido) that the best way to get ****** money into the community is via Presta Nombres since other options are not available ... then do it. Most all of Melaque, Barra de Navidad, Ranchito, La Manzanilla and on up the coast are Ejido and there must be 1000+ gringos living here in million $ homes on down. It's been done this way for 20+ years in this area.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

GARYJ65 said:


> In addition:
> 
> In return for permitting you to use the ExpatForum.com forum you agree with ExpatForum.com that your contribution:
> is your own original work and that you have the right to make it available to us for all the purposes specified above
> ...


Please post the official legalities involved .... and then take it up with the Municipio of Cihuatlan.

Thanks


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

I will certainly follow your advice. So any notario or lawyer will do, or should I ask someone to refer one? 


The land I am currently considering was recently farmland (privately owned I believe); on the north edge of Irapuato. They just put a new highway in next to the land and a new shopping center is being built there.

I do not know anyone outside of Dutch Harbor . Been here 6 years. Came from Seattle.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

jallenb74 said:


> I will certainly follow your advice. So any notario or lawyer will do, or should I ask someone to refer one?
> 
> The land I am currently considering was recently farmland (privately owned I believe); on the north edge of Irapuato. They just put a new highway in next to the land and a new shopping center is being built there.
> 
> I do not know anyone outside of Dutch Harbor . Been here 6 years. Came from Seattle.


As far as Notarios, any would do, ley me ask around here and will come back on a suggestion by Monday. If the highway is right next to the land, You have to consider "derecho de vía" I think it is 20 meters, You cannot build in that part, since it is reserved for the road for possible future expansions. I will make sure on this one and let You know.
Did You received my PM?
Saludos!


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

jallenb74 said:


> I will certainly follow your advice. So any notario or lawyer will do, or should I ask someone to refer one?


A lawyer will be of no help - you need a notario. Technically, any notario would do but I would ask around for a recommendation since having a good notario can make the process go more smoothly and would give you better assurance that all the i's and t's are dotted and crossed.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

circle110 said:


> A lawyer will be of no help - you need a notario.


I'm confused. Isn't a notario a specialized kind of lawyer?


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm confused. Isn't a notario a specialized kind of lawyer?


Yes but all lawyers are not Notarios


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

sparks said:


> Yes but all lawyers are not Notarios


Sounds like some sort of problem in logic .


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm confused. Isn't a notario a specialized kind of lawyer?


I suppose I should have specified "regular lawyer". Most notarios are lawyers but not all.

Even though many notarios pass through the step of earning a law degree, it is not required. There is an undergrad curriculum of pre-notario which is more specialized study of the law. Then after completing the pre-notario licenciatura, the notario-to-be takes the additional post graduate courses to become a notario, something like a masters degree I guess, and then works as an understudy to a notario for a specified time. After that he/she applies to the state for their notario status.


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*Brains go out the window when it comes to buying land in Mexico*

It really irks me how seemingly intelligent people will go to no ends, even Illegal like "Prestanombre" to buy land their eyes get big and all watery about - even though back in the USA they would never think about doing something so ridiculous.

Like the title; Brains seem to go out the window when buying property in Mexico by Gringos and other Foreigners.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

cuylers5746 said:


> It really irks me how seemingly intelligent people will go to no ends, even Illegal like "Prestanombre"


Come on now ... yer talking about the majority of people in this area. A popular saying about buying here is -- 'don't buy anything you can't walk away from'. I'm sure many didn't take that to heart

I still have not seen an official statement that presta nombres are illegal

A side note on Notarios: I and others have used a lawyers office that uses Notario #4 out of Manzanillo (another city and state) because he charges about half of our local and only Notario


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Ok. I understand now, a notario is a specialized lawyer. What kind of fees do most notarios charge?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

jallenb74 said:


> Ok. I understand now, a notario is a specialized lawyer. What kind of fees do most notarios charge?


They have standardized fees that they take as a base price, and then each one charges a bit more. You will have to ask around


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

jallenb74 said:


> Ok. I understand now, a notario is a specialized lawyer. What kind of fees do most notarios charge?


They provide a lot of services so it depends on what you need. As I said above, one charges half of the other. Ours included registering the property and making a Carta de Poder (power of attorney) for me. Cost $20,000 pesos with the expensive guy


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I feel a lot more comfortable with the prospect of buying in Mexico. You've been immensely helpful.


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## jallenb74 (Jun 6, 2012)

Ok. Slightly new question related to housing in Mexico. I found a place I really like, but its already built. What kind of financing options are there in Mexico? Will large banks lend to homebuyers for properties in Mexico? Is it difficult to find financing?


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

The best possible interest rates I have seen are minimum 10% (and going WAY up from there), so I haven't even considered financing a property in Mexico. Mortgages are also generally for 10 years maximum so with those kinds of rates and a shorter amortization, the monthly payments will be comparatively high.

There are now some US banks that finance properties in Mexico but their rates are also at least double what the current rates are in the US.


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