# Illegally built houses



## stew (Nov 17, 2009)

Can I just quickly check something: on TV last night here there was a TV programme that talked about houses that were illegally built and so could be knocked down.
Is this something that is easy to avoid when buying a house in Spain?


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

stew said:


> Can I just quickly check something: on TV last night here there was a TV programme that talked about houses that were illegally built and so could be knocked down.
> Is this something that is easy to avoid when buying a house in Spain?


oooh, thats the billion dollar question!! I know the programme you mean and altho there was a certain ammount of sensationalism by the programme makers, demolitions have happened thru no fault of the owners, more to do with the laws constantly changing, greedy developers and greedy mayors!

There have been quite a few laws changes and majors imprisoned since that programme, so it is fairly rare, however, it does happen.

Providing you use a good independant solicitor, who is not working for the other side as well, go thru a trust worthy and knowledgeable agent and do your own research, you should be fine. My friends are estate agents who have lived and worked in this area for several years and they could probably tell you which houses are and are not legal here. I'm sure any good agent would be the same in any area. 

Failing that, I personally would rent in Spain before buying so that you get a feel for whats what and you're not risking your life savings if you're worried

Jo xxx


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

There are any number of 'illegal homes' in Spain: one newspaper quotes 60,000 in Andalucía alone. 'Illegal homes' are usually homes built with the connivence of the town hall which needs the tax income and will often have private relationships between the authorities and the promoters. The regional authority essentially wants 'in' on this.
Furthermore, don't buy 'off-plan' as many of these houses will never be built.
There are several good property-owner sites available, including the AUN in Valaencia and the AUAN in Almeria. 
The damage of all this to the Spanish economy is evident to everyone - except the spanish authorities...


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

lenox said:


> s.
> Furthermore, don't buy 'off-plan' as many of these houses will never be built.
> .


Im afraid I feel that to be a little bit of a generalisation.
People have been saying for years "dont buy off plan", but with the right research etc its not the nightmare often described


----------



## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

stew said:


> Can I just quickly check something: on TV last night here there was a TV programme that talked about houses that were illegally built and so could be knocked down.
> Is this something that is easy to avoid when buying a house in Spain?


Yes. Basically check that the property is registered fully in the Registro de Propriedad and in Catastro. You should use a gestoria to check these as they will ensure that proper notary deeds, references etc are registered and are fully certified by Registro de Propriedad (akin to Land Registry in the UK). 

Although the last experience I had, the Registro de Propriedad was not mandatory (Catastro is mandatory) - the Registro de Propriedad is rapidly becoming the standard as it is in the UK and many buyers won't go any further if the property is not registered there. The reason for this is that without a full set of paperwork, permits, taxes paid etc it cannot be registered - therefore this registration elimates a lot of risks. 

Obviously do bear in mind that nothing will protect you from expropriation and Spain has an awful lot of infrastructure works going on with high speed trains and motorways, etc. One can only do as much as possible when it comes to doing one's own searches - things like a plot or two in an urban zone that is not allowed to be built on might be a clue to something going through there at some stage in the future. Also worth checking the "fomento" site for any studies on infrastructure which mention the name of the place where you live, etc. Other than the above, the only document I would say you should definitely have and which should be available from your ayuntamiento is the latest "plan de urbanismo" which in our case goes back to 1992 so don't expect a very up to date one necessarily. We in this part of Galicia have been waiting for "the new plan" (plan xeneral) for some years now and although we started building in 2006 with the fear of "hurry up, it might be frozen" here we are at the end of 2009 and still waiting for the plan to come through from the Galician government. Nevertheless, old as it may be, the latest plan from 1992 is still the official document and so if I were buying a house today and that house was not within the building areas permitted by that plan, that would lead me to not touch it just to avoid any issues!!

A good gestoria will be able to take you through the steps.

Tallulah.x


----------



## Maya01 (Jun 11, 2008)

Well we know of one couple who thought they purchased their home legally, 15 years ago, but it's now being bulldozed.

We know of a Spanish family who had part of their very old family campo land taken, 5 years ago, so a new road could be built. They've been told they may get some money........ one day and they seem to accept that.

We tried to avoid any question of possibly buying and losing a home by buying an old townhouse in the centre of town. We're losing the house anyway because the roof fell in and the insurance won't pay anything even though we had buildings and contents insurance.

There's a currently a petition to the EU parliment due to so many people losing their homes for one reason or another. (I'll try and find the link and you can read some of the stories of how even the college of lawyers don't bother to reply when someone reports a lawyer for wrong doing.

Personally, knowing what I know now I would never buy a property in Spain. For me the dream has begun turning into a nightmare, after 6 years. Having said that there are people, I know, that have bought and lived in their homes for years and they haven't had any problems at all....... yet!


----------



## Rofa (Dec 3, 2009)

Maya01 said:


> We tried to avoid any question of possibly buying and losing a home by buying an old townhouse in the centre of town. We're losing the house anyway because the roof fell in and the insurance won't pay anything even though we had buildings and contents insurance.


You don't say why the roof fell in. If it was due to a "natural disaster" - severe storm, lightning etc then your insurance company should have pointed you in the direction of the Concorcio

The role of the Spanish Consorcio de Compensación de Seguros

My experience with them was excellent - i.e. they paid up - assessor came to see my collapsed wall and agreed a figure within 15 minutes for storm damage and I had the cash € 1500 within 2 weeks.

Mind you if the roof was rotten/woodworm etc .............


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Maya01 said:


> Personally, knowing what I know now I would never buy a property in Spain. For me the dream has begun turning into a nightmare, after 6 years. Having said that there are people, I know, that have bought and lived in their homes for years and they haven't had any problems at all....... yet!


I'm sorry to hear of your nightmare ... what were the circumstances of the roof collapsing. Can it not be repaired?

I think you'll find though the percentage of ex pats actually having problems is relatively small. Some of course ask for it by not doing the right research or making the purchase in completely the wrong circumstances, but there are still those that get caught .. such as the Priors and others .... Spain does itself no favours by allowing these miscarriages of justice take place, and damages its building industry terribly

I think though to give the impression that this problem is rife might be a little misleading


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

It's rife all right.
The Olive Press (Granada) reports 60,000 illegal homes in Andalucía (not including those that fall under the new Ley de Costas).
The 'delegado provincial de obras y viviendas', Luis Cáparros (who ordered the Prior's demolition) talks about 11,000 'illegal homes' in Eastern Almería - all in small and moribund interior towns.
Catral in Alicante has 1,300 illegal homes (El País October 2006). Several other towns also suffer from corruption and illegal homes and/or urbanisations, San Fulgencio, Torrevieja, La Nucia, Polop (where they shot the mayor). I think it's a pretty big risk. The Ciudadanos Europeos and the AUN both advise against buying a house in Spain at the present time.
Lastly, these problems - which are never aired in Spain - are all over the rest of Europe. See Paradise Lost (translated into Spanish) - you won't see it on Spanish TV.




.
It needs to be fixed - not ignored.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

The Olive Press .... right 

I know of your kind involvement Lenox, I read your stuff from time to time. I'm always acknowledging that there is a problem, but you know yourself that there were a percentage of people who knew what they were getting into but the lure of a cheap property was just too much. The fact that it backfired due to changing interpretations of law (I'm being kind there!) was of course extremely unfortunate. People were still buying properties on the large urbs knowing they were illegal, such as Chiclana. A further percentage it is said will be legalised on payment of "fees".

But overall, are you aware of how many ex pat (I'm not talking just Brits) properties there are now in Spain as a whole? The figures I saw were 4.7 million foreign residents, of course not all of which will be property owners. Dont forget though that there will also be a huge number of foreigners that havent registered at all, and holiday home owners also.

So I'm not trying to make out that there isnt a problem ...... but its been said by some that its just too much of a risk buying a property in Spain at all, and I dont believe that to be true as a generalisation

What do you think of the theory that they will legalise a lot of the properties to restore confidence in the housing industry and to encourage buyers??


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

I think that the problem is one that Spain has to face. Whether a larger or smaller proportion of foreign home-owners have been, in some way, gypped, the point is that Spain's reputation as a retirement destination has been shattered. The Spanish seem largely unaware of this (their newspapers don't discuss the problem) and jobs and foreign money are stiffled.
I suppose, in some way, my indignation is for the plight of the Priors, who bought in good faith with town hall permits and so on only to have their house pulled about their ears two years ago. An elderly couple living in a garage for no good purpose whatsoever.
I would certainly like to see the Spanish authorities _acknowledge_ this particular source of income from the millions of wealthier foreigners who own homes here, bringing in funds from abroad, Perhaps an agency which protected, advised, defended and compensated well-meaning Europeans who sought/seek to live here.


----------



## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

lenox said:


> I think that the problem is one that Spain has to face. Whether a larger or smaller proportion of foreign home-owners have been, in some way, gypped, the point is that Spain's reputation as a retirement destination has been shattered. The Spanish seem largely unaware of this (their newspapers don't discuss the problem) and jobs and foreign money are stiffled.
> I suppose, in some way, my indignation is for the plight of the Priors, who bought in good faith with town hall permits and so on only to have their house pulled about their ears two years ago. An elderly couple living in a garage for no good purpose whatsoever.
> I would certainly like to see the Spanish authorities _acknowledge_ this particular source of income from the millions of wealthier foreigners who own homes here, bringing in funds from abroad, Perhaps an agency which protected, advised, defended and compensated well-meaning Europeans who sought/seek to live here.


I'm not a political animal but my experience of things round here (Arboleas area) is that the local authorities have indeed recognised that the economy relies heavily on immigrant ('cos that's what we are) money and are trying to sort out the problem of illegal builds.

One of the main problems they have though is Brit expats working against them instead of with them. We all know what's happened but there's only one way all this will be sorted and that's by everyone working together to achieve, what is after all, a common goal

I'll probably get shot down for this but I can only tell it how I see it.



Doggy


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

owdoggy said:


> I'm not a political animal but my experience of things round here (Arboleas area) is that the local authorities have indeed recognised that the economy relies heavily on immigrant ('cos that's what we are) money and are trying to sort out the problem of illegal builds.
> 
> One of the main problems they have though is Brit expats working against them instead of with them. We all know what's happened but there's only one way all this will be sorted and that's by everyone working together to achieve, what is after all, a common goal
> 
> ...



I'm not polical either, but I'm not sure all the demonstrations etc really help???? Sadly its only an issue for for those involved, which, in the grand scheme of things isnt that many and as sad as I, or anyone else may feel, I get the impression that demonstrating and making a fuss locally, doesnt help (I could be wrong, but thats how it seems). Whats needed is "real" higher intervention - but even then as we know, spain is a big country with too many little regions who dont seem to be in touch and are still a tad on the corrupt side???? We all know its wrong, I'm sure even the Spanish do, but I think there is still an element of Spanish who dont care about or want the expats in their community and are bit indignant at the way "we" come over and build our flash houses on their land - of course they dont care about that when they take the money!?

Thats how I see it????

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> I'm not a political animal but my experience of things round here (Arboleas area) is that the local authorities have indeed recognised that the economy relies heavily on immigrant ('cos that's what we are) money and are trying to sort out the problem of illegal builds.
> 
> One of the main problems they have though is Brit expats working against them instead of with them. We all know what's happened but there's only one way all this will be sorted and that's by everyone working together to achieve, what is after all, a common goal
> 
> ...


Well, I won't be loading my gun as I think you are right.
I especially appreciate the fact that you are aware that we are 'immigrants'. On principal, I never describe myself as an expat. Just as Somalis, Pakistanis etc. are immigrants to the UK, so Brits are immigrants in Spain. Thankyou for that.
I really am sorry for the plight of people like the Priors and we must never lose sight of individual hardship and suffering. But there is a larger picture which reflects badly on both sides, both British and Spanish.
Many Spaniards and Spanish local authorities saw the immigrant influx as a goose laying many golden eggs and shady deals were struck and dodgy money made. Now, anxious to lose its reputation as a corrupt banana republic and spurred by the EU, Spain is making huge efforts to bring malefactors to book and clean up its image. In this process, innocents will suffer.
But I also see a kind of neo-colonialism in the attitude of some Brits to Spain. A cheap place to retire in the sun and form little Britain overseas - not too strange and foreign, affordable on modest retirement incomes. Buying property here seen as a right - imagine the reaction of the Daily Mail if a million Spaniards bought or rented property in the UK. Remember the screaming headline of a year or so ago: 'A million Poles to come to Britain'.
I remember the comment from a recent tv programme: 'If you had a pulse and a passport you got a mortgage'.
So you are right: the problem hasn't been created by one side only. Greedy Spaniards and 'bent' local officials: yes. Immigrants wanting, quite reasonably, to enjoy a sun-soaked retirement in properties in someone else's country which they could perhaps only dream of in the UK - also a part of a 'problem' that can be solved only by mutual trust and co-operation on both sides.
A sense of entitlement on the part of British immigrants, however justified, will not expedite matters.
Incidentally, we bought property in Canada at the height of the Spanish boom, property which we sold a couple of years ago at a reasonable profit. We paid a large amount of tax to Revenue Canada on the profit which is only fair, IMHO. I have experienced a few pangs of regret that we didn't invest in Spain but they get fewer as the days pass.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> I would certainly like to see the Spanish authorities _acknowledge_ this particular source of income from the millions of wealthier foreigners who own homes here, bringing in funds from abroad, Perhaps an agency which protected, advised, defended and compensated well-meaning Europeans who sought/seek to live here.


Using funds from the generality of Spanish taxpayers?to compensate losers in the property market? Smacks of socialism.
As a supporter of the free market system, I reluctantly accept there will be some losers in any commercial transaction. The ultimate responsibility lies with the purchaser. Caveat emptor is an excellent maxim. When in doubt, do nowt. 
Strange how, whenever there is a market failure, people look to governments for compensation but recoil with horror at the very thought of any kind of state intervention in 'good times' in the form of a tax on their profits.
The planning and property system in many foreign countries is totally unilke that of the UK or other Anglo-Saxon countries. Spain has always had a reputation for being a minefield in this and other respects. Hence the phrase 'old Spanish custom'.
An examination of Spanish local government structures would surely indicate that responsibility for planning permissions does not ultimately reside in the immediate local authority, especially where agricultural land is concerned. In the UK we have agreed structure plans which 'zone' areas for different types of development. Here in Spain the issue seems to be opaque and confused, to say the least. 
And that's one very good reason for hesitating before signing up for the 'dream home'.
Because we had insufficient knowledge of the complexities of the laws relating to property purchase and had a lack of confidence in our ability to rely on our own judgment of facts provided by others, we decided not to buy outside of a legal and property structure with which we were familiar.
In some countries it is very difficult to purchase property unless you are a national of that country or have close family connections.


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I think the idea of Brits coming over here and creating a "little britain", although valid in reality, is not taking into consideration human nature.

For instance, the Germans live in their own little areas, the Dutch, the French. Javea was described as "French" to me when I first came over here. Moraira was "German" There is a street over the mountain here where someone has put up a german style sign "Bergstrasse"! The entire street is owned by Germans.

So its not an English trait. Its human nature for some to flock to an area where their countrymen reside. Support I guess.

But its for sure that all nationalities have been effected by this crime. I agree with you though Lenox, the Spanish authorities need to understand what a huge amount of damage all this is doing to their economy.


----------



## Maya01 (Jun 11, 2008)

Rofa said:


> You don't say why the roof fell in. If it was due to a "natural disaster" - severe storm, lightning etc then your insurance company should have pointed you in the direction of the Concorcio
> 
> The role of the Spanish Consorcio de Compensación de Seguros
> 
> ...


It was a torrential rain storm - it was raining when we left for the airport and we arrived in England during the early hours. When we all got up in the morning and my husband turned his mobile on he had numerous voicemails from our neighbour and the townhall. The firebrigade and police had been called because some of the roof tiles had slid forward and crashed into the street. The firebrigade then covered the hole with plastic but rain was still getting inside and doing more and more damage.

Our neihbour moved what he could out of the front 2 bedrooms, where the hole was, and we also called our insurance company and arranged for the assessor to be met at the property. The assessor said he was putting in a report for the insurance to pay urgently and we should get quotes. We flew back early but by then more of the roof had fallen in and it was very obvious it would be unsafe to live in - it was still raining too!

We got quotes and waited to hear from the insurance company but didn't hear anything so we called them. Finally we received a letter to say they wouldn't pay because a) there wasn't enough rain. b) there wasn't enough wind. We were told if part of the neighbour's roof had fallen on to ours then they would have paid.

Our English neighbours 2 doors down also had a lot of leaking at the same time and their insurance wouldn't pay either. 2 Spanish neighbours had their roofs repaired by the townhall so we asked them for help with ours but were told they hadn't repaired the neighbour's roofs even though they had sign boards up outside!

So, in total there were 4 houses in our street that all suffered roof damage due to the severe rain storm. The 2 Spanish houses got repaired even though they didn't even have any insurance. The 2 English houses got no help and neither insurance company will pay.

I wrote to the Consorcio and their reply was that the insurance should pay but there was no information on how to actually get them to pay and we haven't heard from the Consorcio since. Our lawyers have told us we will win in court but it will cost €2000 for an architect's report and €5000 for legal fees and court costs. It will take 2 years and then the insurance company will appeal, if they lose. We will then have to pay more legal fees and court costs plus wait even longer. In the meantime we have to pay to live somewhere and keep up all mortgage payments on our home - not easy when you're autonomo in a recession with 3 young kids. If we could afford the legal costs and paying the mortgage on a house we can't live in for 4 years we'd just pay to get the work done ourselves.

The insurance company are Groupama and we're told they're notorious for not paying out - wish we'd known that when the bank first arranged insurance. A local insurance company even told us that she has never been able to get Groupama to pay on any claim.

By the way, here's the link I mentioned in my first post - I'd suggest anyone thinking of buying property in Spain, reads through the many stories of people who thought they were buying by the book but got stung!

Home - spanishpropertyscandalpetition


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Well - three houses were demolished today in Galicia - see El Pais. Twenty one houses in some small town had permits from the town hall... but not from the Xunta de Galicia.
Of course, this time they were Spanish homes. One house - the occupants had lived there for four years. The wife collapsed and was taken to hospital.


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

From a letter I just received (some family living in an 'illegal house' in Almería, on 'builders electric' etc):

...All we want is to live out our lives in peace, and enjoy this wonderful country, among the good Spanish people. Surely this is our fundamental basic human right.
We think the Spanish government should consider the following:
1. Take away the threat of demolition.
2. Allow us to gain mains electricity and water. We can then contribute to the local councils and pay our bills correctly as we would all wish to do.
3. Sequester the assets of the builders and developers who have acted illegally, and use this to carry out any further work to enable developments such as ours to become fully legal.
4. Further punish those responsible, by applying the criminal laws of Spain.
5. Use any money remaining to compensate the victims (legal expenses, etc.)...


----------



## Maya01 (Jun 11, 2008)

Rofa said:


> You don't say why the roof fell in. If it was due to a "natural disaster" - severe storm, lightning etc then your insurance company should have pointed you in the direction of the Concorcio
> 
> The role of the Spanish Consorcio de Compensación de Seguros
> 
> ...


I just checked the Consorcio website again just to be sure there's nothing I've missed and it seems the reason they told us the insurance should pay is because they don't actually cover

"However, not included in this concept of flooding are the results of rainfall falling directly on the insured risk, or that collected by its roof or roof terrace,"


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> From a letter I just received (some family living in an 'illegal house' in Almería, on 'builders electric' etc):
> 
> ...All we want is to live out our lives in peace, and enjoy this wonderful country, among the good Spanish people. Surely this is our fundamental basic human right.
> 
> ...


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> From a letter I just received (some family living in an 'illegal house' in Almería, on 'builders electric' etc):
> 
> ...All we want is to live out our lives in peace, and enjoy this wonderful country, among the good Spanish people. Surely this is our fundamental basic human right.
> We think the Spanish government should consider the following:
> ...


This is the problem isnt it! They should either allow Brits (and others) to live and build in Spain and accept it, or else not let them - in which case they'd be "cutting off their noses to spite their faces" Its the corruption, greed and the hypocracy that is causing the problems and in such a big and fragmented country its not easy to police! 

It isnt and cant be a fundemental human right. Afterall surely its everyones fundemental right to live in peace and harmony anywhere in the world, but two thrids of the worlds population live in fear, terror and/or are starving with no home at all - not even a country to accept them.

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> It isnt and cant be a fundemental human right. Afterall surely its everyones fundemental right to live in peace and harmony anywhere in the world, but two thrids of the worlds population live in fear, terror and/or are starving with no home at all - not even a country to accept them.
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, you are right. Imagine what would happen if that two-thirds all decided to live in the UK.
Everyone who is an EU citizen does have the right to live in Spain or anywhere in the EU as enshrined in the Single European Act brought in by the Thatcher Government. Although it also allows free movement of goods and capital and must therefore implicitly allow for property acquisition it doesn't say that you have the right not to be cheated, alas. In the end, that's down to individual judgment.
One question I have: does anyone know whether the TSJA or whatever the Andalucian Government's planning authority is called always had the ultimate right of veto where planning applications are concerned?
If the answer is Yes, then surely it would be the purchaser's responsibility to obtain that permission and not rely on a piece of paper from the local Town Hall?
If the answer is No, that's a whole new ballgame with legal implications.
So I really would like an answer to that key question.
Surely everyone in the UK knows that the 'Town Hall' doesn't issue planning permissions. District and in some cases County Councils issue these after much deliberation according to the Town and Country Planning Act and taking cognisance of County Structure Plans.
So....is the TSJA the ultimate planning authority?


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Well done everyone - shoot 'em, it's the only language they understand.
As for us being 'immigants' - well - if we were (which we are evidently not) then why not get the same treatment as our new fellow-citizens?
We are of course not immigrants (por unas razones espero que evidentes) but are merely exercising our right to move from one state in Europe to another. Unless somebody who moves from Cornwall to Suffolk is an immigrant. Knock 'is house down, onee language 'ee unnerstands!
Funny how we always go on about Pakistanies in England - as if _our ignorance, bigotry and racism _justifies the Spanish behaviour. My opinion, the Spanish are a lot nicer than the Brits, far less jingoist or racist. 
But they do like a spot of corruption, he he.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I think the idea of Brits coming over here and creating a "little britain", although valid in reality, is not taking into consideration human nature.
> 
> For instance, the Germans live in their own little areas, the Dutch, the French. Javea was described as "French" to me when I first came over here. Moraira was "German" There is a street over the mountain here where someone has put up a german style sign "Bergstrasse"! The entire street is owned by Germans.
> 
> ...


You are right but it's deplorable. I don't like the Muslim ghettos we have in the UK and I don't like it here, whether the ghettos be British, German or whatever. It is a human trait but it would be better were it confined to character and not nationality. I select my friends on character and common interests as I bet you do - that's a more positive aspect of that fundamental trait.
When many of these immigrants don't bother finding out about the way of life or take time to learn the language, it's not only impolite and insensitive but also very silly. One poster on this site rejoiced that he was about to leave the shackles of the Stalinist UK to live in freedom in Spain. He obviously hadn't bothered to find out that Spain has a Socialist Government, far to the left of the hapless Gordon Brown and his merry crew!!
I have an Aunt who emigrated to Quebec in 1946. The town she lives in has steadily become more Francophone. She has steadfastly refused to learn French with the consequence that she is now becoming more isolated as her English-speaking friends die off. I think she is a very silly old woman.
The real 'crime' in Spain is not the way that some English people may or may not have been ripped off. That's not what is adversely affecting the economy. It's a simple matter of a surplus of supply over demand, fuelled by developers' (not all spanish) greed for profit and the desire of many Europeans from colder climes to get that comparatively cheap'dream home' in the sun, sometimes without overmuch consideration of what they were getting into.
So now there's a situation where 1.6 million unsold new homes plus the unfinished construction plus the resales clog up the market. Almost like the Republic of Ireland, which enjoyed a boom based on the construction bubble.
Do the maths: how many purchasers are required to clear this backlog? Where will they come from? Not from low-wage Spaniards living with 20% unemployment. Not from Brits, who've seen their purchasing power decline by 30%.
Sad though it may be for the individuals concerned in the illegal building situations, their plight is a gnat's bite compared to the real problems, which will get worse when banks call in the mortgages and loans to construction companies.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> Well done everyone - shoot 'em, it's the only language they understand.
> As for us being 'immigants' - well - if we were (which we are evidently not) then why not get the same treatment as our new fellow-citizens?
> We are of course not immigrants (por unas razones espero que evidentes) but are merely exercising our right to move from one state in Europe to another. Unless somebody who moves from Cornwall to Suffolk is an immigrant. Knock 'is house down, onee language 'ee unnerstands!
> Funny how we always go on about Pakistanies in England - as if _our ignorance, bigotry and racism _justifies the Spanish behaviour. My opinion, the Spanish are a lot nicer than the Brits, far less jingoist or racist.
> But they do like a spot of corruption, he he.


And we Brits don't? Ever heard of the BAE Al Yamani arms deal? Of course, Tony Blair refused an inquiry into that because the Arab Governments involved threatened to shift their business to France....
And what would you call the antics of MPs and members of the House of Lords? The locking up of Jeffery Archer, Jonathan Aitken etc etc. Neil Hamilton's brown paper envelopes?
If that's not corruption, what is? 
Perhaps you agree with Shakespeare's King Lear: 'through tattered robes small vices do appear. Plate sin with gold, hides all'.
I do not understand what you say in your sentence 'we are not immigrants' or by stating 'we are evidently not'. What do you think we are, then? I suggest you consult whatever dictionary you have to hand for a definition of the word.
The Spanish authorities are not exhibiting racist behaviour in their revoking of illegally granted planning permissions. As a member of a Planning Committee in the UK I have reluctantly voted on several occasions for Compulsory Purchase Orders and demolitions of houses built without the requisite permission..It's not nice but if it's the law.
You may be able to give a yes or no answer to my question: has it always been the case that the TSJA has been the ultimate planning authority in Andalucia and not the local Town Halls?

Whilst waiting for an answer to that important question I had another thought....you say Spaniards are less racist than the Brits. Hmm. Which Spanish football club was fined for the antics of their spectators who made monkey noises and threw banansa at black British players? Was it in Barcelona that motorsports spectators blacked up as an insult to Lewis Hamilton? And was it in Italy or Spain that football matches had to be played in empty stadiums because of racist-inspired crowd problems?
Face up to it, there are racists and bigots in all countries. We Brits are (slightly) better than some countries I've lived in.


----------



## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

I feel that stirring up trouble through marches does nothing but antagonise the locals and the junta against the expat communities. Working together with as many people in the town halls as possible must surely be the way forward. 

All this antagonism, marches, posting on as many forums as possible to create argument is counter productive. What Lenox forgets is that most if not ALL of the Brits that are in conflict with the authorities over illegal builds bought them through a British agent. I have rarely seen any mention of them being a part of the 'fraud'. 

I know of several couples in the Almeria area that bought at the same time as I did in Coin, Malaga. They paid far less than I did for their properties. When I said make sure you do all the checks for legality they said they were quite happy to buy the houses even though their bank had refused to give them a mortgage because they were not sure of the legality of the houses. It is these same people that are now shouting fraud. 

Many purchasers are as much to blame as the agents and developers through ignoring the advice of others. There are, like has already been mentioned, people like the Priors that clearly through no fault of their own have found themsleves in their current situation. And they deservedly receive all the sympathy they get.

To blame illegal builds for the downturn in the sales market is rediculous. It is the global recession that has caused the problem not illegal builds. And the continuing rattling of swords by the likes of Lenox do nothing for the sales market. It does the complete opposite.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A person who moves to a country other than that of his or her usual residence for a period of at least a year (12 months), so that the country of destination effectively becomes his or her new country of usual residence. From the perspective ... of the country of arrival the person will be a long-term immigrant.
—United Nations[1]

Official UN Definition of 'immigrant'.

Off to have my preprandial sherry now


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> I feel that stirring up trouble through marches does nothing but antagonise the locals and the junta against the expat communities. Working together with as many people in the town halls as possible must surely be the way forward.
> 
> All this antagonism, marches, posting on as many forums as possible to create argument is counter productive. What Lenox forgets is that most if not ALL of the Brits that are in conflict with the authorities over illegal builds bought them through a British agent. I have rarely seen any mention of them being a part of the 'fraud'.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum. And what a first post!
I have to disagree in part though ...... the Spanish property problems must have an effect on people buying here, and in turn must effect the economy. I've lost count of the number of people I have seen say on forums that they are going to rent, rather than buy .. because of the uncertaintly and worry.

Of course the general downturn has had a major effect, but the Spanish really could have done without the damage done by this whole affair. Do you really think, by the way, that when people are having their houses demolished and lives shattered, that demonstrations should not be held just in case they upset the locals and antagonise the junta


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Interestingly I've just heard on the radio news that a 27yo Spanish man is just about to have his 4 bedroomed detatched house demolished cos he only had planning permission for a tool shed

Jo xxx


----------



## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

Perhaps I was a bit over generalising. Something that many of us tend to do on forums. Yes, clearly the illegal issue has had a lot of impact on the selling of property. But many are trying to blame it all on this and it is not. 

Re-reading my post it is a bit of 'wow what a post' I suppose. But having read some of the things on this and other forums I felt I had to join the debate. Hope no-one has taken offence to it. And I will contribute to other debates as I see fit.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Welcome to the forum. And what a first post!
> I have to disagree in part though ...... the Spanish property problems must have an effect on people buying here, and in turn must effect the economy. I've lost count of the number of people I have seen say on forums that they are going to rent, rather than buy .. because of the uncertaintly and worry.
> 
> Of course the general downturn has had a major effect, but the Spanish really could have done without the damage done by this whole affair. Do you really think, by the way, that when people are having their houses demolished and lives shattered, that demonstrations should not be held just in case they upset the locals and antagonise the junta


I agree 100% with rioblanca. Surely the number of people affected in this illegal build scenario is small. Certainly not large enough to deter people from purchasing. People are renting either because as in my case they do not wish to buy - ever -or are uncertain about their own economic future, badly knocked back by their lower purchasing power because of the devaluation of the £ or simply waiting in the hope that prices will fall even further.
Most people in and outside of Spain are unaware of the plight of the occupiers of illegal builds.
I don't know what effect marching etc. will have but I suspect none whatsoever. I learnt whilst a local Councillor that those in power rarely if ever take notice of petitions, marches etc. Sadly.
I think Tallulah summed up the situation re buying in Spain very adequately and neatly. Do your homework thoroughly is her message and where there is the slightest trace of uncertainty -don't buy.
Very sound advice.
The point seems to me to hinge on this: is the TSJA the ultimate planning authority or not? If the answer is yes, then prospective purchasers should have reassured themselves that the TSJA would approve the application to build on agricultural land.
If their lawyer failed to determine this crucial fact, s/he is guilty of gross professional misconduct and the quarrel is with them.
If the purchaser did not seek this reassurance, they and they alone are to blame.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've said it before that all this "marching" and protesting surely cant help anyone! Its antagonistic IMO. What really needs to happen is for the rules and regulations to be unified and changed to make them easy for EVERYONE to follow and understand. If you try to illegally build in the UK you soon know about it and its at your peril if you continue - here its seems unscrupulous developers can get away with it and sell on these properties to those who prehaps dont do their homework or who are unlucky enough to be a party to a corrupt deal. The illegalness of it should be decided and stopped before the property gets past the the planning stage

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rioblanca said:


> Re-reading my post it is a bit of 'wow what a post' I suppose. But having read some of the things on this and other forums I felt I had to join the debate. Hope no-one has taken offence to it. And I will contribute to other debates as I see fit.


Why should anyone take offence? You were expressing your opinion in a reasoned way.
This is a good debate. Please post more on this and other topics.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> Perhaps I was a bit over generalising. Something that many of us tend to do on forums. Yes, clearly the illegal issue has had a lot of impact on the selling of property. But many are trying to blame it all on this and it is not.
> 
> Re-reading my post it is a bit of 'wow what a post' I suppose. But having read some of the things on this and other forums I felt I had to join the debate. Hope no-one has taken offence to it. And I will contribute to other debates as I see fit.



Its nice to hear your views - thats what forums are all about. Its only when things get personal and nasty that people should take offence and then we would "nuke" you LOL. Thank you for joining us 

Jo xxx


----------



## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

I will reiterate though that whilst the developers are largely to blame for the illegal builds in the first place. Surely some if not a very large portion of the blame should be put on the estate agents that advertised then encouraged people to buy these houses. They have all seem to have done a runner to Turkey and Bulgaria!! Doing much the same thing there from what I can see.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> I will reiterate though that whilst the developers are largely to blame for the illegal builds in the first place. Surely some if not a very large portion of the blame should be put on the estate agents that advertised then encouraged people to buy these houses. They have all seem to have done a runner to Turkey and Bulgaria!! Doing much the same thing there from what I can see.



A very good point!


Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I agree 100% with rioblanca. Surely the number of people affected in this illegal build scenario is small. Certainly not large enough to deter people from purchasing.


A point I made earlier in a post, but its not the number that is important its the fact that they exist!

I am fairly sure that in the present climate, if I were contemplating moving to Spain, this issue might well stop me from buying. You'd be suprised how many people know in the UK, its been on the telly you know! 

Rio, you won't upset anyone on here by expressing your views


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> A point I made earlier in a post, but its not the number that is important its the fact that they exist!
> 
> I am fairly sure that in the present climate, if I were contemplating moving to Spain, this issue might well stop me from buying. You'd be suprised how many people know in the UK, its been on the telly you know!
> 
> Rio, you won't upset anyone on here by expressing your views


Its all anyone ever says when you talk to people in the UK about buying a property in Spain - the good old media manage to plant the seed and let it flourish out of control as usual

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its all anyone ever says when you talk to people in the UK about buying a property in Spain - the good old media manage to plant the seed and let it flourish out of control as usual
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, I must say that it's not a subject I have heard discussed much in the UK but then I haven't made many 'social' visits in the last four or five years. 
My almost weekly trips were business so I don't know what's news in the UK, I must admit.
I focused on narrow, boring stuff like employment law.
When I flick through the pages of 'Hello' I don't know who most of the 'celebrities' are.....


----------



## hissyfits (May 5, 2013)

Most of these posts occurred several years ago. Is this still a problem? Has the Government implemented any new laws or policy changes so that it is safer to buy and identify illegal properties?


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

From 'Business over Tapas':
A major (and grotesque) article on the 'Urban boom' in El País this weekend begins with _'The real estate boom has passed, but bricks placed in full fury, as some urban councillors looked the other way, remain well glued to the ground. Environmental prosecutors still have "serious problems" in executing the demolitions of illegal structures. Owners are trying to delay the arrival of the bulldozers in any way they can, such as looking for faults in the judicial process, or discovering new clauses in the law, such as the Ley de Costas. The town halls, who must share responsibility since they should ensure the urban legality, argue in many cases that do not have funds to address these issues. "We are up against a brick wall," says Patricia Navarro, the environmental prosecutor for Cadiz'_... The article reveals that there are some 300,000 'illegal homes' in Andalucía, perhaps another 50,000 on the Valencian coast and still more in Cantabria (the article seems vague, like the Spanish ecologists themselves, as to numbers). Here's a paragraph dealing with the Almanzora Valley in Almería: - '_A group of foreigners affected by urban excesses committed in the Valle del Almanzora (Almería), where there are 12,000 illegal constructions, has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights. For now, a local judge has suspended the order of demolition on the home of a British couple to wait and see the result of the international demand. Gerardo Vázquez, lawyer of the AUAN local property owners association, is calling for an urgent change in the rules. 'It is a Byzantine system', he says, 'it is clear that the system has failed by the number of so-called illegal dwellings on the table_'.


----------



## hissyfits (May 5, 2013)

Thanks Lenox. What a mine field! From what I am reading its almost impossible to identify many of the illegal properties because many Town Halls provided the developers with planning permission and buyers with title deeds making all appear legal and above board. Only later was this challenged and overturned by higher authorities hence the demolitions and cutting off of mains services. 

I was interested in viewing property in Lucainena de las Torres but discovering this means that before I book any flights and accommodation I need to do more homework and identify ways of avoiding this pitfall.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

hissyfits said:


> Thanks Lenox. What a mine field! From what I am reading its almost impossible to identify many of the illegal properties because many Town Halls provided the developers with planning permission and buyers with title deeds making all appear legal and above board. Only later was this challenged and overturned by higher authorities hence the demolitions and cutting off of mains services.
> 
> I was interested in viewing property in Lucainena de las Torres but discovering this means that before I book any flights and accommodation I need to do more homework and identify ways of avoiding this pitfall.


Yes, homework is vital - knowledge and understanding is the only way. Remember, buying in Spain is nothing like buying in the UK!! In fact, its best to rent first, then you get to know the area and you get a feel for the place. Cos spain tends to have different rules in different regions, on different days lol

Jo xxx


----------



## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Lucainena is a very pretty town - it's just won an award as 'Pueblo Bonito de España'. 
The problem with the so-called 'illegal houses', which tend to be in specific areas, comes down to the power of the ecologists in Seville - where they are something similar to what was in their day the Holy Inquisition. 
I would say that a house with history and full documentation is safe enough, but any story of how 'the papers are being held up' or 'It's a shared _escritura_' should be enough to warn you off.
In Almeria, there's a useful British-run group called the AUAN, the 'Abusos Urbanisticos de la Almanzora - No' here.


----------



## hissyfits (May 5, 2013)

Thanks, there is some really good advice on the link. Amazingly I can ask for most of the information I need via e-mail or fax for a very small fee. Step by step guide on what paperwork I need to examine will be very useful.

If anyone can give more information on Lucainena de las Torres I wold be grateful.


----------



## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Don't Spanish conveyancing lawyers check out the legalities of their clients property purchases?


----------



## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

crookesey said:


> Don't Spanish conveyancing lawyers check out the legalities of their clients property purchases?


The problem with many of the 'illegal' houses wasn't so much with the competence of the solicitors (that's not to say all Spanish solicitors or abogado's are competent, because they're not) but with the local town halls and central government.

The local town hall's deliberately approved certain land for housing to be built on it (usually for back handers or for the simple income the approval would produce) when central or regional government would claim that same land was zoned as not being legal to build on.

This is where the problem arises. It's central or regional government that insist on these illegal properties be demolished when local government had approved them. The loser (as usual) is the end purchaser who having bought what they considered was a legal property now find it isn't and are caught inbetween the central or regional government and local government and of course no-one takes any responsibility.

This lack of ownership or responsibility for these foul ups seems endemic in the world today and is not restricted to Spanish bureaucracy.


----------



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - what a terrible situation for your family! I have tried to access the link you've provided, but have received a message claiming it doesn't exist! Could you check it and try again? Thanks.

Saludos,
GC


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> The problem with many of the 'illegal' houses wasn't so much with the competence of the solicitors (that's not to say all Spanish solicitors or abogado's are competent, because they're not) but with the local town halls and central government.
> 
> The local town hall's deliberately approved certain land for housing to be built on it (usually for back handers or for the simple income the approval would produce) when central or regional government would claim that same land was zoned as not being legal to build on.
> 
> ...


You omitted the part where this dog, public works and planning minister Josefina Cruz, spouted this load of clap -trap ;

" During a parliamentary debate in March, when asked how she planned to deal with the problem of illegal housing affecting thousands of British expats in the Almanzora Valley, Almeria, she referred to the situation as: "an intrusion of people... who are not of this country, who have settled here illegally and have shown a lack of respect for the culture of the territory, for the culture of the landscape and the culture of planning... and are now demanding that we solve a problem that they are responsible for having created." 

& really should have been thrown out , if not for defamation , then for racism. 
Anyone with any sense wouldn't touch anything in Andalucia while you have people like this allowed to be in public office .

Spanish courts rule in favour of minister accused of defaming Britons - Telegraph


----------

