# Idiotic, rotten, infuriating rules &regs.



## hecate (Jul 12, 2010)

[shifted from retire to Greece p.4]

Even I who hate being told what to do on principle, appreciate the need for[and even obey] some rules: seatbelts, netiquette, etc. But Greece has so many, and so much confusion and contradiction... 

Like: you buy a piece of land. When you decide to/are finally able to build on it you're informed that all those little bushes that have been growing on it as it lay untenanted for many years are now TREES, and there are laws to protect the trees and you'll have to a)get the'forestry permit', a maddening process usually involving the passing of _fakelakia_, 2) hire someone (usually an illegal) to slip in at night with a saw, 3) have a fire.

3's no joke - development's believed to be behind the fires that have devastated all the hillsides around Athens and that huge swath of the Peloponnese.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

When I saw the title on this one, I said to myself "must be an American." Sorry, that's not meant as a dig of any sort - it's just that it seems like us Yanks seem to have the most trouble dealing with all the picky regulations here in Europe. (It's not just Greece - but most of Europe is like this. OK, maybe Greece is a little worse than some other countries, but in principle not my that much.)

Here in France, when we built a small "barn" for our donkeys, my (French) husband decided to follow all the rules, so we had plans drawn up and filed a "declaration" with the mairie (which basically the was same as asking for a building permit for a larger, more elaborate building). Meanwhile, everyone around us has illegal additions, out buildings and structures on their property - and (in typical French style) there is some sort of law that says if you manage to get away for 10 years with an "illegal" structure, it gets legalized by default. Heck no one here on the street is going to turn us in, as we could then turn around and report them for their illegal structures.

Welcome to Europe! Eventually you kind of go with the flow and learn how the system really works.
Cheers,
Bev


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## hecate (Jul 12, 2010)

Yank indeed, twitchin' at restrictions on freedom... 

Thanks for the welcome, Bev, but having lived half my life in Europe, I've got a fair idea of how the systems work. Greece's is particularly disfunctional, lacking the sophistication of France's, the coherence of the British, or the amenable-to-change flexibility of America's. Dealing with beaurocracy is a tiresome irritant everywhere, it's the _rules_ that are the problem here. 

Too many are self-defeating. Too many limit any chance of growth (individually, economically, professionally, etc.). Too many are in place for no good reason at all. It's masses of busywork to keep the jobs-for-votes people feeling grateful pushing papers. Those who actually care about this country and its people are discouraged/furious/baffled/heart-sick.

Look at this strike - bloody awful for everyone, but look at _why _they're striking...

I started this thread because a Greek journalist pal wanted to know my views and those of other expats here. I've given him an earful: hope some of you pipe up.


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## hecate (Jul 12, 2010)

Bah. Bureaucracy bureaucracy, bureaucracy. Loath it so much, I can't spell it.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

I just noticed this post now. I could probably think of some rules and regulations that get on my nerves here. Let me think....

- Okay this receipt thing is ridiculous. Right now I have so many receipts, I could fill a shoebox and it would not close. They are all filed away, each and every one, by date, and they are also all entered into a computer database by date, tax number, name, amount, receipt number, and what the item is. This is then turned into a printable list. The last time I printed it out it was over 40 pages long and there are still 5 more months to go this year. I am tired of collecting the damn things, I am tired of asking for them when they are not forthcoming, I am tired of entering them into the database, and I am tired of worrying about losing them. But the worst part is that I have _zero confidence_ that they will actually ask for them come tax time next year, or if they will change the rules about which ones are included/excluded, or what the fine/reward for doing it is. ZERO confidence. 

- The obsession with stamps drives me up the wall. This is not one rule per se, but thousands: everything has to be stamped and signed. This summer, for my summer job, one of the things I had to do was carry a permit that I had for something, and every time I went someplace, they had to stamp the permit. I went lots of places that required this stamp. Right now the back of the page, which is where they put the stamps, is so full of stamps that you cannot fit anymore, but because they must still do it, they just overlap over older stamps. It looks like a child's art project. And the thing is that NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO SEE THIS SHEET OF PAPER. Ever. I have been doing this for years and they just get thrown away. I have collected over 60 stamps on the back of a single sheet of paper (plus a date and signature to go with each one) over the past 5 weeks. (The best part is the look of panic in their faces when they _can't find their stamp_. It's obvious that they're supposed to stamp it, because everyone else has done so. But the panic and shame that they can't is priceless.)

- The rule about public sector employees not being able to hold a second (private sector) job. I'm not sure if this applies to all public sector employees but it applies to teachers. Thanks to the new austerity measures, many teachers barely make enough money to eat and pay rent. Since they are sent to teach far away from where they grew up, they can't just live at home with family. It drives some to work illegally, and others to just endure poverty. This one directly affects me, thus I mention it.

There are others, of course....


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## xenos (Dec 20, 2009)

So can anybody tell me anything about the 600 YES SIX HUNDRED public sector gardeners employed at Evangellismos Hospital in Athens THAT DOESNT HAVE A GARDEN????

Thanks to the new austerity measures, many teachers barely make enough money to eat and pay rent.......BUT WHAT ABOUT THE HOLIDAYS THEY HAVE???


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

What about the holidays exactly? They aren't allowed to hold a summer job, so it doesn't do them any good, does it? Most move home to their parents' houses for the summer since they can't afford to live where they're teaching any longer than absolutely necessary. I lived in a community of teachers and they all struggled to eat. These are people with masters' degrees and doctorates who are dedicated to their students. I assure you that if they were offered the chance to work in July and August, they would do it. (Yes, I'm sure some work illegally too.)

I can explain the gardeners. There is a certain amount of corruption in the government. That is an example of it. This "gardener" thing happens at practically every state hospital and rural clinic in the country.


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## xenos (Dec 20, 2009)

They aren't allowed to hold a summer job, so it doesn't do them any good, does it? .....what about their evening jobs in frontisteria, teaching the same subjects that they should be teaching in school. Please dont dent this happens, if you insist we can meet and I can SHOW you some teachers working at nights.

I can explain the gardeners. There is a certain amount of corruption in the government. That is an example of it.......This is not a "certain amount of corruption" this is a blatant waste of public funds - mine and your TAX is being wasted.

Certain amount of corruption......the last 2 (at least) governments - both Pasok and ND "LOST" 30 BILLION Euro of OUR money but of course as government ministers they are free from prosecution......It also seems a little "suspicious" that the building holding some of the records was mysteriously burnt during the first "peaceful demonstration" of this season. Forgive me for being somewhat suspicious.


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## wka (Sep 18, 2009)

".....what about their evening jobs in frontisteria, teaching the same subjects that they should be teaching in school. Please dont dent this happens, if you insist we can meet and I can SHOW you some teachers working at nights."

I'm not interested in DENYING anything - why should I? This is a conversation about RULES AND REGULATIONS that we don't like. This is a RULE / REGULATION that I don't like. End of story. My husband is a teacher and he does NOTHING illegal, he has NEVER taught illegally in a frontisterio or private lessons. I have no interest whatsoever in meeting with you so you can show me teachers who work illegally when my own husband is a teacher who does NOT. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach.

"This is not a "certain amount of corruption" this is a blatant waste of public funds - mine and your TAX is being wasted."

You have a REALLY hard time recognizing sarcasm. I was being sarcastic - it is blatant corruption - what else could it possibly be for Christ's sake?? Since my husband and I pay taxes and DO NOT evade taxes (pretty hard to evade taxes when the government knows exactly how much you make because they're the ones paying you, don't you think?) it REALLY pisses me off when I see our tax money wasted. But you need to reread what I wrote and try to recognize the obvious sarcasm. I have a friend who was a doctor in a TINY TINY village in Achaia, and their rural clinic had 13 gardeners on staff (also no garden there either). But just one doctor, of course.


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## hecate (Jul 12, 2010)

xenos said:


> - both Pasok and ND "LOST" 30 BILLION Euro of OUR money but of course as government ministers they are free from prosecution......


''

[The books were 'over cooked' mainly to get accepted [finally] into "Europe"] 

That the lawgivers are permanently exempt from prosecution [= zip accountability] has got to be the uber idiotic rule of all. And that they can't be accused of anything nefarious, not even "honest" mistakes, by the press is just icing on the cake. The consequences are obvious: the trickle-down effect inevitible.

It's dandy that there are good, upstanding citizens not breaking the laws. It's absurd the laws are so out of touch with reality that most decent citizens end up breaking some on occasion. It's too bloody hot to personalize this discussion.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sounds like a crazy place to choose to live LOL

Jo xxx


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## IrinaP (Jun 16, 2010)

hecate said:


> [shifted from retire to Greece p.4]
> 
> Even I who hate being told what to do on principle, appreciate the need for[and even obey] some rules: seatbelts, netiquette, etc. But Greece has so many, and so much confusion and contradiction...
> 
> ...


I agree with what BEV said, Greece does have and keeps adding new rules and regulations, follow them a couple of months and then tend to forget, change them according to what is convenient to them.


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