# Starting a Glamping business in Northern Spain



## hannahattenburrow (Sep 30, 2018)

HI

My boyfriend and I are looking to relocate to Spain, we have two or three areas in mind either around Girona or Picos de Europa / Basque region.

We plan to offer Pilates and outdoor retreats as well as mountain bike guiding and coaching.

Has anyone got any experience of trying to set up a glamping / camping business in northern spain?

Any tips or information would be wonderful!

thanks Hannah


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Starting ANY business in Spain is tricky, especially for foreigners. There are all sorts of unfamiliar planning and licensing regulations, and most frustratingly, they vary from place to place, even from one town to another. Bureaucratic procedures can take forever! So the important thing is to get on good terms with the mayor and get approval before you do anything else. 

Then there is the social security payment system, which is very different from the UK. Self-employed people (known as autónomos) pay a flat rate each month of over €250 per person for themselves and any employees, regardless of income. The rate is lower for the first few months (about €60 I think) but it's the main reason that most start-up businesses fail. 

Northern Spain has long cold winters with lots of rain and snow, as you know, so your season will be relatively short. 

I have a friend here in Andalucia who tried to run a similar business - eco-cottages, canoeing, horseriding etc. Beautiful lakeside location, good weather all year round. But his outgoings were consistently less than his income, and it folded after two years.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit negative, but you did ask!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Hi, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Starting ANY business in Spain is tricky, especially for foreigners. There are all sorts of unfamiliar planning and licensing regulations, and most frustratingly, they vary from place to place, even from one town to another. Bureaucratic procedures can take forever! So the important thing is to get on good terms with the mayor and get approval before you do anything else.
> 
> ...



I'm sure you mean that his outgoings were *more * than his income?


There's a glampsite somewhere near me. Istr that it started maybe 4 years ago. I don't know how it did / does, but I did see that it wasfor sale not long ago.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Take a look at this thread https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...3-applying-set-up-campsite-site-glamping.html


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

hannahattenburrow said:


> HI
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Very difficult task. Also, to move here to start you have to have sufficient funds to survive without working as well as health insurance. To just pop in thinkng you can start a business and that it will even succeed as a foreigner is almost impossible unless you already have the financial backing to survive without it. You will soon discover that most Expats are retired. We know of at least three people where we live that do Pilates but they have other employment as well. They are all Spanish. 

Being a former distance cyclist I fully support any type of cycling enterprise but for something like this to work, you should be established prior to arrival. I just returned from Austria and Hungary where cycling companies are like rats in a junkyard (prolific) plentiful. They are all European based.

I hate to burst your bubble but you are looking at a massive accomplishment. I would hate to see you set something like this up without a five year business plan. 

We live in the Pyrenees and mostly we see Cyclists on the Camino but no tour companies


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## growurown (Sep 3, 2018)

Whilst you are in the process of setting it up - unless you purchase an already established location you can use https://www.workaway.info/ a volunteer program.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I'm sure you mean that his outgoings were *more * than his income?


Yes, sorry (trying to do two things at once).


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

It might be easier to establish a Wheel Clamping business in Northern Spain rather than Glamping.
Don't know whether wheel clampers reached the same level of notoriety in Spain as they did in
the UK but I would assume there must be loads of private car parks in cities, that resort to using the
services of the Wheel Clampers to deter illegal parking.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> It might be easier to establish a Wheel Clamping business in Northern Spain rather than Glamping.
> Don't know whether wheel clampers reached the same level of notoriety in Spain as they did in
> the UK but I would assume there must be loads of private car parks in cities, that resort to using the
> services of the Wheel Clampers to deter illegal parking.


What are you on? :noidea:

Not very helpful when people are asking for genuine advice. Why not keep the jokes for La Tasca.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> What are you on? :noidea:
> 
> 
> 
> Not very helpful when people are asking for genuine advice. Why not keep the jokes for La Tasca.




I must have misread it. I thought Williams misspelled it. My post disappeared anyway. Our city has a lot for caravans that is well set up. 


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## hannahattenburrow (Sep 30, 2018)

Thank you that is helpful


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> What are you on? :noidea:
> 
> Not very helpful when people are asking for genuine advice. Why not keep the jokes for La Tasca.


Oh lighten up will you - it was said in jest and on a play of words, matey !!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

double post, oops


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We were talking about this last weekend as friends of ours wanted to set a yurt business up. They had it all there ready to go but the hoops and costs made it not worth the money or time it would take.

This may just be for the Valencia region but because it was on rural land you have to file a DIC with the town hall which is called a 'declaracion de interes comunitario'. This process is certainly mostly unnecessary and is likely to take well over a year for approval if at all.
Also because of that mess and the inability of people to actually be allowed to do anything for themselves you need to submit a full on technical project, when the quotes started to hit 20 thousand before even knowing if you would even get your DIC they decided against it and moved on with there lives.

To be fair the way things are going here it wont be long before the hotel industry lobbies for all types of camping to be shut down unless they already have their fingers in the pot.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> We were talking about this last weekend as friends of ours wanted to set a yurt business up. They had it all there ready to go but the hoops and costs made it not worth the money or time it would take.
> 
> This may just be for the Valencia region but because it was on rural land you have to file a DIC with the town hall which is called a 'declaracion de interes comunitario'. This process is certainly mostly unnecessary and is likely to take well over a year for approval if at all.
> Also because of that mess and the inability of people to actually be allowed to do anything for themselves you need to submit a full on technical project, when the quotes started to hit 20 thousand before even knowing if you would even get your DIC they decided against it and moved on with there lives.
> ...


I certainly don't doubt the veracity of any of this, but I wonder to what extent the "Northern European" mentality penalises us (as in the British) in doing business in Spain.

I have a friend who owns and runs a gourmet food shop in Madrid. Last year he was celebrating getting his licence to operate from the local authority. His shop has been open for at least 8 years. I asked if there had been a particular problem and he just explained that at first he applied, was told he needed to do some more paperwork, sorted it out and reapplied, then he had to adjust the shop to a new norm, then reapplied... etc. etc. for 8 years.
But in all that time he has been trading, making money and has paid of all the loans and investments he needed to get started. He has also paid a few fines for operating without a licence. 

I would never recommend such a course of action, but I do wonder if sometimes we shouldn't just "do as the Romans".


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

To be honest and I hate saying this because it is not right at all but there are times when there is simply no other option. I have seen it time and time again, especially when we were developing a business plan and the reality was to just start it up and deal with any problems later like everyone else seemingly had or was still doing.

But I wouldn't suggest it either, it just encourages all involved to keep on going with a broken system and frankly it is a large part of why everything is a shambles here.

I wouldn't call it a mentality thing but at the same time if it is then I'm happy to not share the same mentality.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I certainly don't doubt the veracity of any of this, but I wonder to what extent the "Northern European" mentality penalises us (as in the British) in doing business in Spain.
> 
> I have a friend who owns and runs a gourmet food shop in Madrid. Last year he was celebrating getting his licence to operate from the local authority. His shop has been open for at least 8 years. I asked if there had been a particular problem and he just explained that at first he applied, was told he needed to do some more paperwork, sorted it out and reapplied, then he had to adjust the shop to a new norm, then reapplied... etc. etc. for 8 years.
> But in all that time he has been trading, making money and has paid of all the loans and investments he needed to get started. He has also paid a few fines for operating without a licence.
> ...


Yes this sounds a bit dodgy to me and if the downside of incurring such a fine is facing a crimminal
record; then no doubt many would avoid such a situation. At the end of the day it depends on
the level of seriousness of such fines, that the infraction doesn't incur an entry in the crimminal
records and one can just shrug it off as being, no more than a fine.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have worked in companies which perform works in commercial premises on behalf of retail and consumer entities, including the management of "licencias de apertura" and I can guarantee that it is quite a normal practice to open to the public before licencias de apertura are granted by the local authorities, simply because it is an administrative formality which can take a long, long time.

Many shops and commercial premises which you, I, and all of us, use are operating as such.

I would, however point out that a campsite probably falls into quite a different category to retail and it may not be normal practice in this case. My comment was simply aimed at highlighting how things work in reality in Spain as opposed to the theory.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I certainly don't doubt the veracity of any of this, but I wonder to what extent the "Northern European" mentality penalises us (as in the British) in doing business in Spain.
> 
> I have a friend who owns and runs a gourmet food shop in Madrid. Last year he was celebrating getting his licence to operate from the local authority. His shop has been open for at least 8 years. I asked if there had been a particular problem and he just explained that at first he applied, was told he needed to do some more paperwork, sorted it out and reapplied, then he had to adjust the shop to a new norm, then reapplied... etc. etc. for 8 years.
> But in all that time he has been trading, making money and has paid of all the loans and investments he needed to get started. He has also paid a few fines for operating without a licence.
> ...


I think you're right, there is something about northern Europeans that make us want to dot the I's and cross the T's, which doesn't seem to be as prevalent in the Southern psyche.

I have English friends who applied for their holiday rental permit the instant it became a legal requirement (two or three years ago), and it still hasn't come through. All the neighbours tell them not to worry, just keep doing the rentals (financially they have no option). But the experience has been really stressful.

Another couple got all the paperwork and permissions to open a B&B, and after the building work was done and they were about to open the Ayuntamiento said the staircase was too narrow and it would have to be rebuilt, otherwise the licence would be withdrawn. 

As I said earlier, Spain isn't the easiest place to run a business.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> :
> 
> As I said earlier, Spain isn't the easiest place to run a business.


It's the arbitrary nature of official decision-making that is frustrating, in my experience.
Our dog shelter has been operating for over thirty years but we still don't have all the required licences. We get by because of our longevity, because we do everything correctly, observe all laws and standards to the letter and most importantly because we do a valuable job that otherwise the Ayuntamiento would have to do and because of this we live under the protection of the Town Hall.
This is all very well but in truth it's a position I find worrying. It's the old 'nada pasa hasta que pasa' mentality. If anything serious happened, e.g. one of our dogs savaged a child on our premises, I'm sure we'd have the book thrown at us. As President, I could end up in jail

I'd hate to be running a business on the success of which my or my family's well-being depended under such uncertain conditions. After such a long time of more or less trouble-free existence, I'm beginning to sleep easier at night. But this really isn't the right way to do things and I'm not sure that it's to do with anything 'cultural'. At the end of the day commercial life continues but it's like a house built on sand for far too many.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hofstede's model of cultural dimensions offers some insight (he did a worldwide study of IBM employees' behaviours and values in the 60s). He identified six "clusters", or groups, of which five are found in Europe.



> The “contest” group is similar to the “network” cluster but more masculine, emphasizing quantity of life over quality. Great Britain and Ireland are counted into the contest group as there is an air of continuous competition with few rules, however fair play is expected. These countries are quick to accept change and are somewhat uncomfortable and restless if the pace is too slow. A common trait in Anglophone countries is decisive management after thorough discussions.





> Then we come to the “machine” – the cluster that exemplifies Germany, Austria, Czech Republic and Hungary where there are lots of rules and the trust lies in “experts”. ... The countries can be characterized as ordered, structured and inflexible, where planning and procedures are key – “Ordnung muss sein”.





> The “pyramid” culture explains a hierarchical, top down society with rules and structures. Cultures with these characteristics can be found in southern Italy, Portugal, Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania and the Balkans.
> 
> Similar to these countries is the cluster called the “solar system” – consisting of Northern Italy, Spain, France and Poland. Nevertheless the latter are more individualistic with less emphasis on the family. The tensions occurring between hierarchy and individualism are resolved by a legalistic approach. Corruption is occurring and inspection is needed to make sure all parts are fulfilling their duties.


Sorry this is a bit academic and nothing to do with glamping but it might help explain why we find Spanish bureaucracy so baffling!

https://futurelabeurope.eu/2013/06/06/a-model-explaining-european-cultural-differences/


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> I think you're right, there is something about northern Europeans that make us want to dot the I's and cross the T's, which doesn't seem to be as prevalent in the Southern psyche.
> 
> I have English friends who applied for their holiday rental permit the instant it became a legal requirement (two or three years ago), and it still hasn't come through. All the neighbours tell them not to worry, just keep doing the rentals (financially they have no option). But the experience has been really stressful.
> 
> ...



I know of people here who in the recent year have had to stop advertising as they didn’t have the requisite paperwork and potentially going to be fined, mainly set off by air BnB


I also stayed in a very small B&B when we first arrived where there was a pool, I loosely call it a pool, a bit bigger than a juccuzi. The powers that be made her put in two ladders in case someone got into distress and buy a tracheotomy set. It seems some local jobs worth are totally stupid !


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## hannahattenburrow (Sep 30, 2018)

Pazcat said:


> We were talking about this last weekend as friends of ours wanted to set a yurt business up. They had it all there ready to go but the hoops and costs made it not worth the money or time it would take.
> 
> This may just be for the Valencia region but because it was on rural land you have to file a DIC with the town hall which is called a 'declaracion de interes comunitario'. This process is certainly mostly unnecessary and is likely to take well over a year for approval if at all.
> Also because of that mess and the inability of people to actually be allowed to do anything for themselves you need to submit a full on technical project, when the quotes started to hit 20 thousand before even knowing if you would even get your DIC they decided against it and moved on with there lives.
> ...



So is the issue that its a 'camping' busness if we were to open a BnB instead or holiday let that would be 'okay'?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

hannahattenburrow said:


> So is the issue that its a 'camping' busness if we were to open a BnB instead or holiday let that would be 'okay'?


Not necessarily - see previous comments. You are most likely to be OK if you took over an existing business and got an independent lawyer to check all the paperwork.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

hannahattenburrow said:


> So is the issue that its a 'camping' busness if we were to open a BnB instead or holiday let that would be 'okay'?


The issue at least in this case is the specific land classification, what we were looking into had nothing to do with camping or accommodation so I would suspect(although couldn't say for certain) that any type of business on this type rustic land would have to do the same.

That said there are different types of rustic land too, some you simply can't do anything on while others you can only farm on and there are minimum size requirements. And it goes on. 
Plus what might be the regulations from my town hall may very well differ from the next town over and again I know this applies in my region but it may be totally different in Catalonia or Andalucia.

Then again you find the right location and land classification and things may go much smoother, still overly complicated but not such a mess.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> I have worked in companies which perform works in commercial premises on behalf of retail and consumer entities, including the management of "licencias de apertura" and *I can guarantee that it is quite a normal practice to open to the public before licencias de apertura are granted* by the local authorities, simply because it is an administrative formality which can take a long, long time.
> 
> Many shops and commercial premises which you, I, and all of us, use are operating as such.


Yes, I totally agree and would go further. I think the authorities _*expect*_ people to open up before the licence is granted. In most cases it doesn't really matter, but a camp/glamp site is full of possible dangers so as others have said, I wouldn't advise it


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

hannahattenburrow said:


> So is the issue that its a 'camping' busness if we were to open a BnB instead or holiday let that would be 'okay'?


The first thing to think about when starting ANY business here is

Social security payments.... paid whatever you ear
Tax
Regulations on BnB
Etc etc

Most importantly, will this be your sole income and do you have back up funds etc. Many a BnB in Spain and I would be as bold to say only a handful earn enough to create a living. Sounds harsh but those are the facts. Due diligence is required 
Good luck


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## growurown (Sep 3, 2018)

I would worry about insurance for the guests more than anything. It would probably be really hard to get covered without the proper registration documents completed. Your personal liability could forever ruin your life if something goes wrong.

There was an incident in France this summer with a camping site being washed away from floods and possible one tourist killed ( never heard anything else if they found the person ) These were Germans running the unlicensed site and they could be brought up on manslaughter charges if anybody did die.


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## AlexNYC (Aug 2, 2017)

Having the experience of a business owner that Luckily sold his business and doesn't owe any money, i would give you this advice.

If that business doesn't exist where you want to pen it, there is a reason. Always look for a business where you will have competition. If you are the only one, it will be very hard to survive.

Winter season is long in Northern Spain I agree; therefore you need to find something to carry the business in the off season.

Don't think we are gloomy. We want to avoid you the drustration.

I would first work in a business like the one you want to open, test it, and then open your own.

Good luck
Alex


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

growurown said:


> I would worry about insurance for the guests more than anything. It would probably be really hard to get covered without the proper registration documents completed. Your personal liability could forever ruin your life if something goes wrong.
> 
> There was an incident in France this summer with a camping site being washed away from floods and possible one tourist killed ( never heard anything else if they found the person ) These were Germans running the unlicensed site and they could be brought up on manslaughter charges if anybody did die.








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## uk03878 (Jul 4, 2018)

Out of interest have you seen the C4 Programme a New Life in the Sun, which shows a couple, albeit in the Dordogne, setting up a glamping site and their pitfalls... and successes


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