# Should I stay or should I go



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi, We were looking to move to Spain in two or three years..... BUT.. We are worried about the Brexit vote and the potential loss of residency and Healthcare because of this. Is there any way we can increase our chances of being accepted ? IE by coming to Spain and getting a NIE or Residency beforehand. Sorry but I really don't know the rules. If we get a NIE or residency then can we continue to live in the UK for the majority of the time ? and then move to Spain permanently after two or three years. We could move to Spain earlier at a push but we really need to wait a while, because of family issues. Ps My wife has reached retirement age , but I wont until 2021.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, We were looking to move to Spain in two or three years..... BUT.. We are worried about the Brexit vote and the potential loss of residency and Healthcare because of this. Is there any way we can increase our chances of being accepted ? IE by coming to Spain and getting a NIE or Residency beforehand. Sorry but I really don't know the rules. If we get a NIE or residency then can we continue to live in the UK for the majority of the time ? and then move to Spain permanently after two or three years. We could move to Spain earlier at a push but we really need to wait a while, because of family issues. Ps My wife has reached retirement age , but I wont until 2021.


You can get a NIE any time, if you need one - but residency is only for those who live here.

The rules as they stand, are that if you are here (or plan to be) 90+ consecutive days, then you are required to register as resident.

If your wife has a state pension now, you can both be covered for state healthcare here with S1 forms. Although you would still be able to use the NHS in the UK - you would no longer be registered there, because using the S1s you would be registered here.

You would also have to show income (in the form of the pension in your case) & usually it's required to be in a Spanish bank. Strictly speaking it doesn't have to be - but it's the easiest way to deal with it - saves having to get expensive translations.

Then there's the issue of tax residency. While it's possible to be registered as resident but not actually tax resident - the onus would be upon you to prove that you are 'resident' but not here enough to be 'tax resident'. 

None of that would guarantee that after Brexit you would continue to have access to healthcare though. With the S1, Britain pays an annual fee to Spain. After Brexit that might stop, & unless Spain decided to allow everyone free healthcare, you'd have to pay for it.

If you don't come until after Brexit - worst case scenario is that you would have to apply for a retirement visa as a non-EU citizen. Currently the financial requirement is a bit over 30,000€ annual income for a couple, plus you would have to have private healthcare.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> You can get a NIE any time, if you need one - but residency is only for those who live here.
> 
> The rules as they stand, are that if you are here (or plan to be) 90+ consecutive days, then you are required to register as resident.
> 
> ...


Hi, Thanks for the prompt reply.... Could we come to Spain for a "Holiday" for say 91 days and then apply to be a resident, then return to the UK for the next nine months and then do the same is subsequent years ? I really don't think we could afford to come to Spain if we both had to get private healthcare.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, Thanks for the prompt reply.... Could we come to Spain for a "Holiday" for say 91 days and then apply to be a resident, then return to the UK for the next nine months and then do the same is subsequent years ? I really don't think we could afford to come to Spain if we both had to get private healthcare.


Thing is once registered as resident in Spain - you aren't really resident in the UK. It would be awfully complicated - you'd be registered in the healthcare system here, not the UK (though you can still use it on holiday there), there's the tax issue & so on.

And as I said - it still wouldn't guarantee that you wouldn't have to pay for private healthcare after Brexit.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> Thing is once registered as resident in Spain - you aren't really resident in the UK. It would be awfully complicated - you'd be registered in the healthcare system here, not the UK (though you can still use it on holiday there), there's the tax issue & so on.
> 
> And as I said - it still wouldn't guarantee that you wouldn't have to pay for private healthcare after Brexit.


Hi, Sorry but I still don't understand fully. How can I not be a Resident in the UK if I spend nine months a year here ? (yes I know I will be a Resident of Spain, but for only 3 months a year ?) How do other people who spend six months in each country get on ? As for the healthcare I suppose we will have a better chance of Getting/Retaining it if we are Resident in Spain before the UK formally leaves the EU ? Thanks.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, Sorry but I still don't understand fully. How can I not be a Resident in the UK if I spend nine months a year here ? (yes I know I will be a Resident of Spain, but for only 3 months a year ?) How do other people who spend six months in each country get on ? As for the healthcare I suppose we will have a better chance of Getting/Retaining it if we are Resident in Spain before the UK formally leaves the EU ? Thanks.


You have be resident in one country or the other. In order to register as resident you will have to get S1s & register for healthcare in Spain. Then you won't be registered for healthcare in the UK, because once the S1 is issued & activated in Spain, you are officially living / accessing healthcare abroad. 

If you then want to be resident in the UK, you have to sign off as being resident in Spain, & re-register in the UK. It would be a pointless & complicated exercise, registering, de-registering & so on every year.

Those who spend 6 months in one country & 6 in the other, will spend at least a few days more in one of them & will generally be resident in that country. 

The healthcare relies upon the UK paying for it. If they decide to stop doing so, then you have to pay for it yourself.

No-one knows - but most of us feel that if the UK stops paying, then they will stop paying for everyone - not just people moving after Brexit.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

There is no cast iron guarantee that the UK Government will continue to pay for the state healthcare of British pensioners living in EU countries, irrespective of Brexit. Remember, they stopped issuing S1 forms for early retirees in 2014, and after that stopped paying the Winter Fuel Allowance to claimants in most EU countries, and those things happened before the referendum was even announced.

It's dependent on the political will of the Government of the day, and how strapped for cash they get. Given the problems in the NHS which seem to be growing by the day, the prospect that charges will have to be introduced at some stage is also growing. If people living in the UK no longer receive healthcare which is totally free at the point of use, then there is no way politically that the Government would continue to fund free healthcare for those living elsewhere.

You might find that private healthcare in Spain is cheaper than you imagine, though (provided neither of you have pre-exisiting conditions, which complicates things). My husband and I have had private cover for over 8 years and this year the premiums have gone up (by €2 per month) to €62 per month each. However, that doesn't cover the cost of medication as with a private prescription we have to pay the full cost of that. At the moment I can get my prescription from the state system and pay only 10% of the cost, but if state healthcare was withdrawn I'd have to go back to paying 100%. Luckily that wouldn't be a fortune, but some people are on medication which costs hundreds of euros a month.


----------



## Missmemum (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi Chris,
We're going to Spain in the spring to find a property and will get our NIE and residency sorted out while there. Not sure if it will help in the long term but figure it can't hurt. Can't wait to be living in Spain after many years here in Canada, where the winters are way too long.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> There is no cast iron guarantee that the UK Government will continue to pay for the state healthcare of British pensioners living in EU countries, irrespective of Brexit. Remember, they stopped issuing S1 forms for early retirees in 2014, and after that stopped paying the Winter Fuel Allowance to claimants in most EU countries, and those things happened before the referendum was even announced.
> 
> It's dependent on the political will of the Government of the day, and how strapped for cash they get. Given the problems in the NHS which seem to be growing by the day, the prospect that charges will have to be introduced at some stage is also growing. If people living in the UK no longer receive healthcare which is totally free at the point of use, then there is no way politically that the Government would continue to fund free healthcare for those living elsewhere.
> 
> You might find that private healthcare in Spain is cheaper than you imagine, though (provided neither of you have pre-exisiting conditions, which complicates things). My husband and I have had private cover for over 8 years and this year the premiums have gone up (by €2 per month) to €62 per month each. However, that doesn't cover the cost of medication as with a private prescription we have to pay the full cost of that. At the moment I can get my prescription from the state system and pay only 10% of the cost, but if state healthcare was withdrawn I'd have to go back to paying 100%. Luckily that wouldn't be a fortune, but some people are on medication which costs hundreds of euros a month.


Hi, we are just trying to "hedge our bets" regarding Healthcare etc, and we realise that there are no guarantees. I have several pre-existing conditions, which require 10 or 12 prescriptions a month, so Private healthcare as I said will not be affordable for us.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Missmemum said:


> Hi Chris,
> We're going to Spain in the spring to find a property and will get our NIE and residency sorted out while there. Not sure if it will help in the long term but figure it can't hurt. Can't wait to be living in Spain after many years here in Canada, where the winters are way too long.


Hi, when you go to Spain in the Spring are you going for a holiday ? If so you will be returning to the UK after a short while ? I have been informed earlier on this thread that this isn't possible.


----------



## Missmemum (Jan 25, 2013)

Yes a holiday and then returning to Canada for now. We are visiting some UK friends who live in Spain and will use their address when we open our bank account and apply for the NIE etc. They have had other friends visit recently and return back to the UK once the paperwork was sorted out, only staying as long as it took to get everything completed.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Missmemum said:


> Yes a holiday and then returning to Canada for now. We are visiting some UK friends who live in Spain and will use their address when we open our bank account and apply for the NIE etc. They have had other friends visit recently and return back to the UK once the paperwork was sorted out, only staying as long as it took to get everything completed.


Hi, These friends that visited Spain and then returned to the UK when the paperwork was done . Will they be spending more time in the UK than in Spain , because as I previously stated I was told on this thread earlier that this wasn't possible ?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Missmemum said:


> Yes a holiday and then returning to Canada for now. We are visiting some UK friends who live in Spain and will use their address when we open our bank account and apply for the NIE etc. They have had other friends visit recently and return back to the UK once the paperwork was sorted out, only staying as long as it took to get everything completed.


Getting a NIE & bank account isn't the same as registering as resident

Are you saying that these people who have registered as resident have shown income & have taken out health insurance in order to register? If so, it seems like an expensive exercise! 


Or - if they have used S1s for healthcare, they must have told the pension service that they will be living in Spain. In which case are likely to come up against all kinds of problems back in the UK 

If you are planning to register as resident & return to Canada, will you be taking out private healthcare in Spain?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, These friends that visited Spain and then returned to the UK when the paperwork was done . Will they be spending more time in the UK than in Spain , because as I previously stated I was told on this thread earlier that this wasn't possible ?


In order to get S1s from the UK you have to tell the pension service that you are moving to Spain (or wherever) & give them your address there. 

Then, as far as the UK is concerned, you live in Spain. 

To do this for a few months a year is pointless - your proposal was to register, unregister & so on every year. I suspect that alarm bells would sound somewhere if you kept doing that. Pointless because you would only be registered for a short time as well, so probably not resident if it came to a 'cut off date' at some point. 

Many of us believe that if there is one, it's likely to be the date A50 is triggered, or some random date down the line, rather than when Britain eventually leaves. 

I guess it's possible to stay registered & not physically be here - you would be resident in Spain though with tax implications as well as Spain being your primary healthcare provider, since you will be registered here using S1s 

Possible - but not quite above board (some would likely put it much more strongly than that), complicated & possibly expensive.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

As xabiachica says, NIE is one thing, registering your residency in Spain is another.
There is wealth of information in the sticky FAQ's and here
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

There are plenty of people who don't do what they're supposed to do in Spain, but xabiachica is telling you what to do according to the rules


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As xabiachica says, NIE is one thing, registering your residency in Spain is another.
> There is wealth of information in the sticky FAQ's and here
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain
> 
> There are plenty of people who don't do what they're supposed to do in Spain, but xabiachica is telling you what to do according to the rules


What can we do that's not according to the rules ? lol


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

CHRISJK said:


> What can we do that's not according to the rules ? lol


Well, you could live 'under the radar' and go around boasting about it in Brit bars, as it seems many do.
That involves not registering as Resident, not getting an NIE, not signing on the Padron, not declaring yourself tax resident if appropriate, not paying tax on the house rented in the UK to subsidise your 'Spanish dream', driving a UK plated car, working 'on the black'....those kinds of things.....

Personally, I hope they all get deported if and when we leave the EU.
Nothing to do with the fact that I had my bank account embargoed for the amount owed on one of our cars I forgot to pay Road Tax equivalent on......


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, you could live 'under the radar' and go around boasting about it in Brit bars, as it seems many do.
> That involves not registering as Resident, not getting an NIE, not signing on the Padron, not declaring yourself tax resident if appropriate, not paying tax on the house rented in the UK to subsidise your 'Spanish dream', driving a UK plated car, working 'on the black'....those kinds of things.....
> 
> Personally, I hope they all get deported if and when we leave the EU.
> Nothing to do with the fact that I had my bank account embargoed for the amount owed on one of our cars I forgot to pay Road Tax equivalent on......


We don't want to go "under the radar" as such . We just want to increase our chances of being able to live "affordably" in Spain after Brexit. As I said previously we cant move to Spain for around a couple of years, but we would be willing to "bend the rules" If it would help our cause. I think that being a resident before we leave the EU will help us, but we cant spend any more than three months a year in Spain for the next couple of years.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> We don't want to go "under the radar" as such . We just want to increase our chances of being able to live "affordably" in Spain after Brexit. As I said previously we cant move to Spain for around a couple of years, but we would be willing to "bend the rules" If it would help our cause. I think that being a resident before we leave the EU will help us, but we cant spend any more than three months a year in Spain for the next couple of years.


The only possible 'bending the rules' you could do, is register as resident in Spain but still live in the UK. *And stay registered in Spain.
*
But how will you manage to register? 

You will need either private healthcare insurance which you say you can't afford - or S1s. As I said in a previous post, to get the S1s you will have to tell the pension service that you live in Spain. Then you will be taken off the NHS as a resident.

Govt departments do speak to each other. If you continue to work in the UK, at some point it's very likely that a flag will go up that you are working there - but 'living in Spain'. You could be investigated - maybe for fraud. 

Governments in different countries also speak to each other.

If you 'live in Spain' you would have to submit tax returns here too. Even if the only income was the pension. Tax thresholds are lower here, so you'll pay more income tax.

As I said - all very complicated, potentially expensive - not to mention that you would have to fraudulently tell the DWP that you live in Spain & maintain an address here, because all communication would go there. 

All that with no guarantee that it will make the slightest difference after Brexit.

Do you think it's worth it? If caught it would do the very opposite of 'helping your case'.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

CHRISJK said:


> We don't want to go "under the radar" as such . We just want to increase our chances of being able to live "affordably" in Spain after Brexit. As I said previously we cant move to Spain for around a couple of years, but we would be willing to "bend the rules" If it would help our cause. I think that being a resident before we leave the EU will help us, but we cant spend any more than three months a year in Spain for the next couple of years.


Really it's simple. You either abide by the rules or you don't. Legally there are no choices. I'd love to increase my chances of living here more affordably, pretend I live in the U.K. For free NHS and not pay 300€ a month for social security payments 

If you can't live here full time then you can't live here full time. There are also no guarantees post Brexit you would fulfil residency requirements, get healthcare etc


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Megsmum said:


> Really it's simple. You either abide by the rules or you don't. Legally there are no choices. I'd love to increase my chances of living here more affordably, pretend I live in the U.K. For free NHS and not pay 300€ a month for social security payments
> 
> If you can't live here full time then you can't live here full time. There are also no guarantees post Brexit you would fulfil residency requirements, get healthcare etc


Agree 100%

Spain is my home, I love living here and I respect the country too much to break or even 'bend' rules.
I don't understand why people think they can live here a la carte, as it were. We had coffee with a friend today who spends more than the permitted time here but isn't Resident or on the Padron, in spite of owning several properties here and drives a UK plated car. She can't see how that's wrong. 
Spain isn't part of the British Empire, we don't come here as latter-day colonisers who think the customs of the natives can be disregarded for our convenience.
Think of the furore in the UK from the likes of the Daily Mail when immigrants cut corners.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

CHRISJK said:


> We don't want to go "under the radar" as such . We just want to increase our chances of being able to live "affordably" in Spain after Brexit. As I said previously we cant move to Spain for around a couple of years, but we would be willing to "bend the rules" If it would help our cause. I think that being a resident before we leave the EU will help us, but we cant spend any more than three months a year in Spain for the next couple of years.


What's the difference between "bending the rules" and acting fraudulently/illegally?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> What's the difference between "bending the rules" and acting fraudulently/illegally?


Nothing really.....


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Nothing really.....


And that is my point.


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> The only possible 'bending the rules' you could do, is register as resident in Spain but still live in the UK. *And stay registered in Spain.
> *
> But how will you manage to register?
> 
> ...


We would go with the private healthcare option because at the moment we CAN afford it (its complicated) and I don't work, because I have taken early retirement. Do I understand correctly , that I only need to have health insurance for three months of the year if I only spend three months of the year in Spain ?


----------



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> What's the difference between "bending the rules" and acting fraudulently/illegally?


Oh come on...... from what I have seen on these forums it seems that quite a lot of expats are "bending the rules" a lot more than I am proposing........


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

CHRISJK said:


> Oh come on...... from what I have seen on these forums it seems that quite a lot of expats are "bending the rules" a lot more than I am proposing........


Well, I am usually on the France forum here and I can tell you that "bending the rules" as you call it is really frowned on there. At the very least, it gives Brits a very bad reputation. Plus, of course, it's always been my understanding that Expat Forum is not supposed to be about getting around the laws and rules (which is IMO illegal activity).


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> We would go with the private healthcare option because at the moment we CAN afford it (its complicated) and I don't work, because I have taken early retirement. Do I understand correctly , that I only need to have health insurance for three months of the year if I only spend three months of the year in Spain ?


No - you would need an annual ongoing policy for the entire time you were registered.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> Well, I am usually on the France forum here and I can tell you that "bending the rules" as you call it is really frowned on there. At the very least, it gives Brits a very bad reputation. Plus, of course, it's always been my understanding that Expat Forum is not supposed to be about getting around the laws and rules (which is IMO illegal activity).


I agree - & it's the same in Spain - people do it, but it's frowned upon

& you're correct that ExpatForum isn't about helping people get around the laws - in fact doing so is actually against the spirit of forum rules about posting illegal comments

I left this thread to run for a while so that the pitfalls of breaking the law could be pointed out. Now that that has been done......

:closed_2:


----------

