# Canada tightens language rules for new citizens



## Editor (Aug 20, 2009)

Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism Minister Jason Kenney is proposing changes to the way the government in Canada assesses the language abilities of prospective new citizens. Under the proposal adult citizenship applicants would be required to provide objective evidence of language ability with their citizenship applications. ‘The ability to communicate effectively in either French or English [...]

Click to read the full news article: Canada tightens language rules for new citizens...
Please come back to discuss the story here in this thread.


----------



## LGK616 (Sep 22, 2009)

I don't know why the languages wasn't more strongly enforced before now. It's Canada - the 2 languages are English and French. The working languages are English and French. The road signs are in English and French. So why shouldn't it be enforced that you not only speak English and/or French, but you can read and follow conversations in English and/or French??

I am an expat in Greece - I was expected to learn Greek to live there and I didn't expect anything less. If I want to be a citizen of Greece I have to be fluent (high school level) in Greek. And why not?

About time Canada toughens up some of their stipulations. Language should be a priority.


----------



## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

LGK616 said:


> I don't know why the languages wasn't more strongly enforced before now. It's Canada - the 2 languages are English and French. The working languages are English and French. The road signs are in English and French. So why shouldn't it be enforced that you not only speak English and/or French, but you can read and follow conversations in English and/or French??
> 
> I am an expat in Greece - I was expected to learn Greek to live there and I didn't expect anything less. If I want to be a citizen of Greece I have to be fluent (high school level) in Greek. And why not?
> 
> About time Canada toughens up some of their stipulations. Language should be a priority.


This is not right. First, not all signs are in French or English. You go to Ontario and most are in English. You go to Quebec, they are only in French. Luckily the signs are universal. Only in few places you have both.

And yes it was about time to enforce this but I would go a step further. I would ask both languages.

I am seeing a lot of people from Europe trying to run away of the problems of their own home countries and Canada should only take the best out there meeting its requirements. I would first raise the marking points and ask new immigrants for some knowledge of the second language.


----------



## LGK616 (Sep 22, 2009)

Grammatical error on my part but my intention was to say signs are in English and/or French.

I don't agree with both languages. Not even Canadians there all their lives know both languages. I know I don't. But I do think according to the location you are living in, you should know the language.

Therefore, if you are trying to immigrate in a predominantly English speaking part of Canada, then you should speak, read and understand English. The same if you move to a predominantly French speaking part.

If you try to gain your immigrant status through the Quebec skilled workers, then you need French. That I agree on.

But I don't agree that if you are moving to, for example, Toronto, that you should have both languages. English first.

Yes, alot of Europeans are leaving their countries hoping to make a better life for their families. That is why I am returning with my Greek husband and daughter. There is no future here for my daughter. And if I can offer her a better one in Canada, why shouldn't she be entitled to it?

You can say the same for a lot of 3rd world country citizens - they are going to Canada by the thousands. And it's to give their family a better life BUT, what I don't agree is that they don't speak the language and they refuse to speak the language. That is wrong.


----------



## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

You did not get my point.

People born in Canada have the freedom to choose. Some provinces established the rule for both languages. Check out new Brunswick. They are now indeed a fully bilingual province. 

I just wish that other provinces had followed New Brunswick example. They made it a reality. If the other provinces follow, in 30 years we will have a generation that can speak and write both languages.

BUT if we are going to accept immigrants and apparently there are tons coming and applying, I would rather prefer that our government be more strict and give preference or assign way more points for those who can master or speak somewhat the second language. I know they do already, but I would be more strict. 

If there is going to be massive immigration, the government has to grab the good ones.

Mind you, I was not born in Canada and I learned both languages.

If we were to apply the skilled worker criteria to people living in Canada only 20% (if my memory serves me well) of Canadians would be allowed to love in the country! LOL


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> BUT if we are going to accept immigrants and apparently there are tons coming and applying, I would rather prefer that our government be more strict and give preference or assign way more points for those who can master or speak somewhat the second language. I know they do already, but I would be more strict.


I would agree entirely with this and am actually surprised that Canada did not have more stringent requirements set up in the first place. I think that having everyone learn both languages will produce not only a highly flexible and multicultural society, but that it will also serve to solidify a Canadian identity, one that draws from both its British and French roots and diversifies itself in a unique way from the US. 

I say the above from the perspective of someone who lives in Belgium, which is so divided along linguistic lines now between French and Dutch speakers (each language group has their own political parties, tv stations, newspapers, controls all of their education and infrastructure spending and essentially have zero contact with each other etc) that were it not for the capital city of Brussels I doubt that this country would exist anymore. 

This is all one way too since most of the Dutch speakers can speak French but none of the immigrants in Belgium and almost none of the French speakers can speak any Dutch. It's a ticking time-bomb and I believe that the only way to save it in the longterm is to make everyone learn both French and Dutch and maybe even force high school students to spend their penultimate year at a school in the other language community. 

I would not propose something as extreme for Canada since the problems are nowhere near as bad, but only good things can come from encouraging a multilingual population and forging a unique cultural identity in the process. Bravo to New Brunswick for such forward thinking!


----------



## Ladyhawk (Sep 11, 2011)

I have always thought that immigrants should show proficiency in the language of their new country as a requirement of citizenship. If you immigrate and choose to apply for citizenship, you should accept the responsibilities that come with citizenship. In order for you to cast an informed vote, you need to understand the issues, and that means you need to be able to read documents and information produced by the government. Citizenship should take some effort. Democracy is not a spectator sport.

However, and this I know will be a wildly unpopular idea here, I also think that while there are certain benefits to an individual to learn to speak more than one language, in general I am not a fan of bilingualism as a policy for a government. Based on what I have seen here in Canada as well as in other multilingual countries, official bilingualism is divisive, not unifying. The minority always feels threatened and it shows up in political action that detracts from the consensus needed to get things done. Furthermore, official bilingualism is expensive because everything on commercial products has to be in both languages, and so everything that is imported into the country has to be re-packaged before it can go on sale. That is one reason we cannot get certain US products or services in Canada. It also keeps good people out of government positions that require bilingual capability.

The US is officially unilingual, but because of the huge latino population, there is a voluntary bilingualism that is spreading across the country, and it is being driven by the private sector, which wants to serve its latino customers better, and so they provide Spanish translations and resources as part of customer service. I like that. People learn another language because they want to, and they see its benefit, so it's a positive incentive, not a negative one because the heavy hand of government makes them do it.


----------



## Cafreeb12 (Oct 12, 2011)

I actually agree with you Ladyhawk. In some areas of Canada there are indeed two unofficial languages...English and Mandarin! So much so that the city of Richmond B.C. has become bilingual. My son learned Mandarin by immersion and has found it a lot more useful in certain areas of Toronto when visiting there than any French he had in school here for the many years he had it. Canada is so multicultural nowadays that making two languages "official" has become somewhat of a burden in areas of the country where literall no one speaks French and where indeed another language may be more in evidence. It's going to get sticky going forward. I DO think French culture needs to be preserved in this country as it's a vital part of Canada's heritage but, making it a country wide necessity has come with a lot of unintended expense and issues. It will be interesting to see how Canada deals with this going forward. Especially with regard to the Chinese as Toronto has the second largest Chinese population in North America and B.C. is literally for all intents and purposes bilingual alright...it's English and Mandarin there! Then we haven't even talked about native language rights. Interesting topic. 

I did notice having taken the citizenship test a few months ago that the language skills on the test with regard to English were raised a bit. Some of the questions were constructed such that if you did not understand English VERY well you would be confused as to the correct response. I thought so even as a native English speaker. So if they are raising the bar yet again that should certainly be sufficient.


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Ladyhawk said:


> However, and this I know will be a wildly unpopular idea here, I also think that while there are certain benefits to an individual to learn to speak more than one language, in general I am not a fan of bilingualism as a policy for a government. Based on what I have seen here in Canada as well as in other multilingual countries, official bilingualism is divisive, not unifying. The minority always feels threatened and it shows up in political action that detracts from the consensus needed to get things done. Furthermore, official bilingualism is expensive because everything on commercial products has to be in both languages, and so everything that is imported into the country has to be re-packaged before it can go on sale. That is one reason we cannot get certain US products or services in Canada. It also keeps good people out of government positions that require bilingual capability.


I would agree with your assessment for a country like Canada or the US where there is a clear, dominant language. Official bilingualism is the only solution for a country like Belgium since we are talking about two native langauges and you cannot favour one group over the other - This would just make the situation worse and even more divisive. Dutch speakers are actually the majority in Belgium - Something like 67%, so here its the majority that feels threatened. 

I never thought about this from a costs perspective since this is normal for me as everything in Belgium is normally at least in French or Dutch, including all of the street signs in Brussels. Goods in the supermarket for example are usually in 3-6 languages. My passport is all 23 languages of the EU...Sure, you could save money by just telling everyone that they have to speak English and lose their own cultural heritage, but I and many others would rightly resist such a move. You can't force monolingualism any more than bilingualism and I would argue that to do so is in fact more divisive. The only way to make monolingualism work in some countries would be to break them up...

Anyway, I normally don't agree with top down approaches either, but in this instance I think that English speaking countries are quickly falling behind others in foreign language ability, and that this will affect future competiveness in the long term. Consider, for example, that in the UK learning a language is no longer mandatory to complete secondary school and nobody takes it as an optional module since there is no incentive to do so: It is easier to get good marks in a non-language subject and consequently then to get into a good university. I have heard of a similar effect occuring in Calgary now since it is optional there as well. 

Monolingualism limits the flexibility of the native workforce to compete with skilled immigrants who speak languages in demand, and this can already be seen in the UK: There are tons of jobs in London that require French, German or Russian to be able to interact with a firm's European clientele, and UK citizens by and large simply don't have the skills required, leading to these jobs going almost by default to those educated in mainland Europe or elsewhere. 

On another point though, bilingualism has also been shown to offset Alzheimer's in later life. Check out the following article:

Bilingualism may buffer against Alzheimer's - Health - CBC News

Interesting topic - Let's keep it going!


----------



## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

I am very blunt on this.

A Country that claims both French and English are the official languages and nevertheless does absolutely nothing to promote (push it in a good way) bilingualism that Country should not claim, Nor advertise the status of bilingualism.

But unfortunately the Federal Government cannot impose this as being mandatory. The best thing it can do is to support, provide incentives and hope people will learn. Reality is that they do not.

Some provinces, on the other hand, like New Brunswick put in place an interesting strategy to promote bilingualism. It took years and the new generation does speak both languages. It starts by changing the education system.

It is unacceptable within Canada that francophone people (who actually share Canadian history) cannot access some services because some companies refuse to sell products due to the "French"cost of doing business. Let's not forget that we have francophone people everywhere throughout Canada.

If the other provinces follow New Brunswick strategy within 30 years you will see a country speaking both languages.

This also applies to French speakers. Quebec should do more effort to teach English, but they are afraid that if they do it alone without having other provinces teaching more French; French will die in Quebec slowly. They do have a point.

In India, each state speaks a different language. There was a time that English was the official language (unified the country); English was replaced by Hindi. There was a massive effort to teach the language in schools. If you ask any Indian around their 30's today about Hindi, you will see that they speak Hindi along with the mother tongue. I am not saying everyone does, but if you start changing the education system, it is in my view a good start.


----------



## Cafreeb12 (Oct 12, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> I am very blunt on this.
> 
> A Country that claims both French and English are the official languages and nevertheless does absolutely nothing to promote (push it in a good way) bilingualism that Country should not claim, Nor advertise the status of bilingualism.
> 
> ...


I have questions about this. The education system teaches languages through vocabulary lists, grammar exercises and the like. French immersion WORKS but, the regular classes in language instruction do not. No child I know who went through the Canadian school system taking French every day for over a decade speaks French. Not a one. The only ones who do did the immersion. If Canada is serious about having the two languages then better ways have to be implemented such as extra credit for doing a summer immersion exchange with a French family or the like. The way we are doing it now for most of the country where French is not spoken at all, like where I live, just doesn't work. It's not a good way to learn any language. I'm all for more immersion in schools in place of busy work in "French class" The only quibble I have with this though is I wish there were MORE languages offered not just "French" and few schools do offer other languages here. Any second language is important but, there are scant offerings. My high school in the U.S. even back then offered over twenty languages! Even Cherokee!


----------



## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi Cafreeb,

French is way more difficult to learn than English. The immersion in French helps somewhat. In Ottawa, where I used to live, Anglophones (and others whose first language is not English) try to enrol their kids in schools where immersion is offered. It is during childhood that our ability to learn is at its peak. This is indeed true for learning languages. 

They do that because in Ottawa (capital and border to Quebec) is a big Government "Hub" with buildings in Ontario and Quebec sides. Jobs in GVT are mostly bilingual. Several posts in Ottawa require the second language as well. The pay might be also better if you master the second language. A good chunk of your co workers will be coming from Quebec too, be franco-ontariennes or else.

Anglophone Adults learning French struggle. It is difficult. For those who the mother tongue has roots in Latin, it is far easier to learn because French itself has its roots in Latin; therefore Spanish, Portuguese or Italian speakers can easily learn French compared to an Anglophone. 

I had the opportunity to work with some people (anglophones) who were schooled in French (till junior school). They understand the language, can read, nope they don't speak much. They are able to attend meetings and understand. But it is up for the family to involve their kids in activities that will enhance their French experience. Why don't take your kids to play hockey in Gatineau QC? He will make friends there and his French will improve..this is just one idea.

What I think worked in NB was that the education system was changed in a way that students would do all their studies in French until high school and then switch to English. I might be wrong. I do not have the entire details. But if your children attend school in French system until he/she is 12 or 14 there is no way your kids will ever forget the language. Might get rusted due to the lack of usage that's about it.

I do not agree with the policy of public schools teaching other languages. It is already hard to make people learn the other official language (lol). First learn the second language then learn the others. 

There are great benefits for those who learn French: For example if you learn French you can easily learn Spanish and Italian. They are close languages to French.

If you are an immigrant in Canada, you might not want to learn French because you feel you do not need it. You maybe right, but don't take that opportunity of your kids. They will need it. If you live in Alberta and have the mindset that "ok I don't need French nobody speaks French here"; well your kids might move and settle in Montreal you never know.


----------



## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> French is way more difficult to learn than English.


Your post seems to point the other way...

According to our high school French teacher: Mandarin is the hardest language to learn; English is the second hardest.


We live in a community that offers English, French Immersion and French schooling (the latter is only if parents speak French). In our experience, students that take French Immersion and switch to English in high school, their conversational skills are much stronger than their written skills.


----------



## Cafreeb12 (Oct 12, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> Hi Cafreeb,
> 
> French is way more difficult to learn than English. The immersion in French helps somewhat. In Ottawa, where I used to live, Anglophones (and others whose first language is not English) try to enrol their kids in schools where immersion is offered. It is during childhood that our ability to learn is at its peak. This is indeed true for learning languages.
> 
> ...


We used to live in Ottawa so my son attended schools there and had French from kindergarten on from there and even later on when we moved. It wasn't immersion. When he was older he did a volunteer group program and went to China, he's a fluent in Mandarin and English. After all the years in school he's not fluent in French. The Mandarin was immersion though. I like your concept of immersion for French as it's the easiest way. Hockey would be a great idea for some but, my sons disability kept him from being a hockey team player. That would not have worked well though we did try it once, the coach was a monster to him and due to his disability did not want him on his "winning" team. It lasted two practices before I put a stop to the man and his tactics. The other parents and myself were appalled. Other activities were better and ANY immersion activity for kids would be fantastic! This could be more incorporated into drama and the arts too! There have been cut backs in schools even in frequency of French instruction in Ontario due to the "new curriculum" and it's damages. I did a lot of work in schools for a long time, any new approach would need funding...though new approaches are really needed. In our area we ended up with ONE French teacher serving five schools and French was cut back to twice a week instruction. That's a problem when it's not funded properly these days. Immersion activities outside of schools are scant in some areas but, what a great idea!

I'd still like to see more languages offered in high schools. Kids could take more than one. That would be especially good for kids who show a keen interest and talent for languages. Though I really do not think for any language the route learning works that well. Immersion is so much more practical.


----------



## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Peg said:


> According to our high school French teacher: Mandarin is the hardest language to learn; English is the second hardest.


Don't know where your French teacher gets that impression...



> The Easiest Language to Learn
> 
> According to the U.S. State Department who groups languages for the diplomatic service, the "easiest" languages for English speakers, are the ones usually requiring 600 hours of classwork for minimal proficiency. In this case they’re the Latin and Germanic languages group. However, German itself requires more time, 750 hours to be exact, because of its complex grammar.
> 
> English is also considered easy because it has no cases, no gender, no word agreement, and arguably has a simple grammar. The language is everywhere and can be heard, absorbed and used anywhere. It has short words, and verbs change only in the third person. Native speakers are very forgiving of mistakes as so many people speak it as a second language. This makes English one of the easiest foreign language to learn.


The Easiest Language to Learn

Also, English is a relative easy language to learn for people with Dysorthographia.

To find out what are the most difficult languages to learn: Most Difficult Language To Learn


----------



## Cafreeb12 (Oct 12, 2011)

EVHB said:


> Don't know where your French teacher gets that impression...
> 
> 
> The Easiest Language to Learn
> ...


Really interesting site! Thanks for the link. Actually "Chinese" is listed on that site as being number one in difficulty, though usually it's called "Mandarin" by the Chinese themselves as that is the standard language but, there are literally thousands of variations and dialects throughout China. Cantonese is largely only spoken in Hong Kong. I love languages and wish I could learn more myself.


----------



## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

EVHB said:


> Don't know where your French teacher gets that impression...


No idea  That's why I prefaced it by "according to..."


----------



## CDN2012 (Jun 15, 2011)

Just because there are 2 official languages, it doesn't mean you need to speak them both. What is the point of learning french if you live in Alberta. You can learn it but then you will forget at as you will NEVER need to use it. If you don't use it you lose it. 
Now if you live in regions close to Quebec, it will be much more beneficial to use it as you will come across a lot of people that may speak one or the other. 
Its important for government employee's to be bilingual as services by the government have to be offered to everybody equally.


----------



## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Peg said:


> No idea  That's why I prefaced it by "according to..."


Surprised she didn't say that French was difficult. ;-)
But maybe English is not her mother tongue, and she found it difficult to learn?


----------



## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

CDN2012 said:


> Just because there are 2 official languages, it doesn't mean you need to speak them both.


Somewhat. TWO official languages mean that a Canadian Legal Alien should be able to live his life using either language and this is not TRUE for Canada. You cannot live in Alberta just knowing French. You cannot survive in northen Quebec just knowing English



CDN2012 said:


> What is the point of learning french if you live in Alberta. You can learn it but then you will forget at as you will NEVER need to use it. If you don't use it you lose it.


What's the point ? This is the type of behaviour that the Government fails to address. Why learn if nobody speaks ? My previous comments are about showing how good it will be for the country if people learn both.

Wanna keep your French up and running ? READ (www.radiocanada.ca); LISTEN to radio and watch French news. Also participate in French community activities. Reality check: nobody cares.



CDN2012 said:


> Now if you live in regions close to Quebec, it will be much more beneficial to use it as you will come across a lot of people that may speak one or the other.
> Its important for government employee's to be bilingual as services by the government have to be offered to everybody equally.


I know you want to be practical. Learn the language that is mostly spoken in the region and you will do just fine. if they speak the other one you gotta learn that one and voilà.

This is not the point. What I am trying to explain is that we would have a much better country if all could speak both.

In Portugal for example, a student learns English and has the option to learn another language so they have the option to choose between either French or German. They usually go for French. And Guess ... The country speaks 100% Portuguese. So why bother learning English, French or German ?

Hope it helps clarifying my points.


----------



## rob_w (Nov 6, 2011)

I'll be in Canada in 2013 and agree that you should speak the language you move to. I'm native English but my French is not bad and I'm skilled. The UK is filling daily with foreign nationals with little or no skills whose only English is 'Political asylum' and 'Where is the benefit office'.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

rob_w said:


> I'll be in Canada in 2013 and agree that you should speak the language you move to. I'm native English but my French is not bad and I'm skilled. The UK is filling daily with foreign nationals with little or no skills whose only English is 'Political asylum' and 'Where is the benefit office'.


Agreed. Check these articles out in the UK Forum for more horror stories:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/br...oreign-banks-part-student-visa-crackdown.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/britain-expat-forum-expats-living-uk/93873-passport-control.html


----------



## CDN2012 (Jun 15, 2011)

i still think your arguments are not practical at all. i learned french everyday in school as i was born and raised in Canada and i forgot most of it because there was not need to speak it. And i shutter at the idea of the goverment was to force me to take extra language classes to keep up my french. My life ia way to busy to even think about upkeeping my french. one thing i guess you didnt relize isnthat portugals education system is set my the federal govt, while in canada its set by each province. So to change every provinces system would be a nightmare.

we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. excuse the spelling mistakes typing on an ipad is not fun, and keyboard that comes withit is way too small.


----------



## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

I grew up in a country with 3 official languages. My mother tongue is Flemish (similar to Dutch), starting in grade 5 we got French. And in grade 10 we got German, the 3th official language. But... never ever did I had to speak French or German in my own country, because in the 3 provinces where I have lived, everybody spoke Flemish... So what is the use of forcing people to study 3 languages if they can only use them when they travel abroad?
So I don't believe in 'forcing' people. If you speak one of the official languages, it's ok for me. And of course people always will benefit from speaking more languages if you want to get a higher education or travel, but that is their own choice.


----------



## Guest (Nov 9, 2011)

If you guys think that Belgium sounds complicated (which it is, I won't deny that), check out the situation in Luxembourg (Source: Official Tourism Office in the UK):

Languages in Luxembourg

The native language is a German dialect called Lëtzebuergesch. Students study German first and then eventually switch over to French. At the same time they learn English and their native language, with the end result being very confusing. Here is a quote from the above link that summarises how each language is important in daily life:

"...In this way French is the official language of the authorities. Parliamentary documents, proposed bills, procedures in court, administrative and judicial acts, are held and written in French, but the synoptic accounts of parliamentary debates (themselves carried out in Lëtzebuergesch or in French) are printed in German (Analytischer Kammerbericht) because they are distributed to all households in the country. Speeches at political rallies and other public occasions are in Lëtzebuergesch. Certain texts are multilingual, depending on the need to make sure that information is brought to all levels of the population. Thus for example, when a new law relating to rents (the equivalent of the British "Landlord & Tenant Act") was brought into force, the texts of the new law were printed in the newspapers in 5 different languages, a page each. (Lëtzebuergesch, French, German, Portuguese and Spanish). The latter two were included, since many immigrants from these countries live and work in Luxembourg (some 36% of the country's population, and a staggering 48% of the country's workforce hold a foreign passport). 
"


----------

