# QWERTY worth it?



## ARPC

I’m shopping for a used laptop in France, I’m probably going to buy one from backmarket. It costs about 100 Euros more and limits my selection of processors etc if I insist on the QWERTY keyboard with my preferred American English key configuration , vs accepting the French version. I (mostly) touch type for my work and will change the settings to be the QWERTY American English anyway, but the keys will still of course be indicated in their French configuration . I’m trying to decide if it’s worth it to pay extra to force the American keyboard, or just take the French one and put little stickers over the keys that are different letters (mostly so my husband doesn’t have an aneurism when he tries to use it and they keys don’t type what they say they will). 

Have any of you guys handled this? Is it a huge pain to remark the keys? I’m not relearning typing on a French keyboard. I’m definitely slightly overthinking it. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Bevdeforges

Because I touch type, too, I've always just bought the "local" AZERTY keyboard laptops and changed the actual keyboard input function to QWERTY. But DH doesn't use my laptop (and I don't use his). But it should be possible (depending on the operating system you'll be using) to install multiple keyboards and change them using the settings function. I currently run my desktop with two installed keyboards - "standard" English and "international English with dead keys" (which is my preference for access to accents and diacriticals in multiple languages). Somewhere in the settings you should be able to add other keyboards.


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## tardigrade

You could just purchase a usb or bluetooth american keyboard.


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## Peasant

You could also get a flexible keyboard overlay/cover that changes AZERTY to QWERTY. About €15 from Amazon.


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## tardigrade

From experience tearing apart keyboards to properly recycle its components - the "keys" are very hard to remove. I would not want someone removing them then use the computer again. Maybe laptop ones are easier to remove?

Does not Dell sell american keyboard computers in France?


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## ARPC

I’m not buying a dell, I’m only buying used from a refurb Mac site, and the problem I described related specifically to the options presented there. I might go for the external Bluetooth option if my settings and stickers plan proves a bordel .


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## Bevdeforges

I was wondering which operating system you were looking at. I know absolutely nothing about Mac offerings, other than that Macs and other Apple products are very popular here in France. But it still should be possible to install multiple keyboards and there should be a "switch" available on the main screen to simply switch from one to the other.


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## RayRay

When I worked in the UK on a project, I could not get used to a UK English keyboard. The differences between it and a US QWERTY keyboard are modest...but my hands were quite clear about where keys should be and the size. I ended up ordering a US QWERTY keyboard. 

I looked up Apple keyboards and the AZERTY keyboard is not a match for key size, shape, nor placement of the keys with a QWERTY keyboard. On the keyboard layout below, note the size of the Tab and Caps Lock keys (bigger), the shape of the Return key, the size of the Delete / Backspace key, and the additional key on the right end of the in the row that contains the "M" key. That is quite a few differences to manage. 

One can swap out a laptop keyboard. QWERTY keyboards are available on eBay and the "Best in Mac" websites. There are YouTube videos on doing that and revising the settings of the laptop to QWERTY. If tackling that is beyond one's comfort level, I recommend buying a MacBook with a QWERTY keyboard from BackMarket. They do sell them, one just has to wait sometimes for them to be available with the amount of memory and hard drive space one wants. 









Best of luck. 

Ray


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## Befuddled

I have been repairing a laptop this week and I it was a very simple matter to remove the keyboard section. Release 5 little tabs with something pointy and it pops out. Insert the bottom and with 5 clicks it goes back in. My only complaint with keyboards (desktop) is that eventually the letters wear off. I tried stick on letters but they also wore off eventually. Then I discovered a much better type that are designed for boards with illuminated keys. The letters are transparent and coloured all the way through the film. They don't wear out. I had to repair this laptop because I couldn't find a new one that will run Windows 7 and secondhand ones I see advertised all look like they've come out of a skip and still expensive.
Oh, and to get a querty UK version I would also be stuck with the import fees on top.


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## RayRay

Befuddled said:


> I have been repairing a laptop this week and I it was a very simple matter to remove the keyboard section. Release 5 little tabs with something pointy and it pops out. Insert the bottom and with 5 clicks it goes back in. My only complaint with keyboards (desktop) is that eventually the letters wear off. I tried stick on letters but they also wore off eventually. Then I discovered a much better type that are designed for boards with illuminated keys. The letters are transparent and coloured all the way through the film. They don't wear out. I had to repair this laptop because I couldn't find a new one that will run Windows 7 and secondhand ones I see advertised all look like they've come out of a skip and still expensive.
> Oh, and to get a querty UK version I would also be stuck with the import fees on top.


I agree...the process of changing the keyboard, plugging it into the system, etc. isn't difficult. And YouTube videos are a great things to discover where the bits are to press on and how to remove and reconnect plugs. My concern came in looking at the specifications of the keyboards for sale and trying to determine with certainty which one would be the right keyboard for a laptop I'd not yet purchased because it had an AZERTY keyboard. 

Congratulations on the project and on finding a solution to the letters wearing off. 

Ray


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## jweihl

Bevdeforges said:


> I was wondering which operating system you were looking at. I know absolutely nothing about Mac offerings, other than that Macs and other Apple products are very popular here in France. But it still should be possible to install multiple keyboards and there should be a "switch" available on the main screen to simply switch from one to the other.


If you're talking about virtual keyboards, yes Macs easily switch between multiple standard keyboards. Generally, I use the "US International - PC" keyboard which is in most respects a typical QWERTY keyboard, but with modifications that allow you to easily type (most) diacriticals with just an extra tap. For example, to type è type the ` then the e keys. Very handy and you learn to make most of those key combos in no time.


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## RayRay

I use a hardware QWERTY keyboard with my iPad and I've always brought up the iPad's virtual keyboard to get accents on French words, which seems clunky. This is terrific.

So far, I've discovered the following accents:

" followed by a vowel adds an umlaut, e.g. ä 
' followed by a vowel adds an accent aigu, e.g., á
` followed by a vowel adds an accent grave, e.g., à 
^ followed by a vowel adds a carot, e.g., â 
~ followed by an n adds a virgulila, e.g., ñ 
Is there a list of the other key combinations that yield accents? I'm looking for a cedilla, in particular. 

Thanks.

Ray


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## Bevdeforges

Search Google (or Duck duck go, if you prefer) for "US international keyboard layout Mac" and then go to the Images page to get pictures and/or schematics for all the possibilities. There are many possibilities using the left-alt, right-alt, Ctrl and other of those "mysterious" keys on the regular keyboard. Have fun!


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## RayRay

Bevdeforges said:


> Search Google (or Duck duck go, if you prefer) for "US international keyboard layout Mac" and then go to the Images page to get pictures and/or schematics for all the possibilities. There are many possibilities using the left-alt, right-alt, Ctrl and other of those "mysterious" keys on the regular keyboard. Have fun!


Bev

Thanks. I do know that there are alt key combinations for accented and special letters (PCs as well as Macs)...it's just that I never remember them for more than 5 seconds as there's nothing intuitive about typing Alt225 to get "ß", for example. However, combinations like the following are quite intuitive for an old brain like mine <s>: 'a = á; `a = à.

Ray


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## Bevdeforges

RayRay said:


> Bev
> 
> Thanks. I do know that there are alt key combinations for accented and special letters (PCs as well as Macs)...it's just that I never remember them for more than 5 seconds as there's nothing intuitive about typing Alt225 to get "ß", for example. However, combinations like the following are quite intuitive for an old brain like mine <s>: 'a = á; `a = à.
> 
> Ray


I'm not referring to those Alt225 kinds of things. To get an esstzet (ß) you only have to press right-alt and s at the same time to get the ß. There are keyboard pictures like this:








the lower character on the right side of the key is what you get with right-alt (i.e. that AltChar key on the picture) pressed at the same time as the key. The character on the upper right side of the key is Shift-AltChar-Key. I have to use the AltChar+, all the time because of the guys I know named François. Just tack a picture like this one (there are clearer ones if you hunt around a bit online) on your laptop or near your desk.somewhere handy - but the characters you use most often become pretty automatic after a bit.


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## RayRay

Bevdeforges said:


> I'm not referring to those Alt225 kinds of things. To get an esstzet (ß) you only have to press right-alt and s at the same time to get the ß. There are keyboard pictures like this:
> View attachment 101169
> 
> the lower character on the right side of the key is what you get with right-alt (i.e. that AltChar key on the picture) pressed at the same time as the key. The character on the upper right side of the key is Shift-AltChar-Key. I have to use the AltChar+, all the time because of the guys I know named François. Just tack a picture like this one (there are clearer ones if you hunt around a bit online) on your laptop or near your desk.somewhere handy - but the characters you use most often become pretty automatic after a bit.


Bev

You are a far better person than me. When I look at that keyboard I get hives <s>. I know about the characters on the lower right of keys...and that double german S (never knew the name for that before either - thanks) is what I got too with the alt-key combination I mentioned. 

Most of the time now, either I pull up the virtual Apple keyboard and long press a letter to get the additional accents available or I run the English through Google translate and allow Google to accent it for me. 

Thanks for mentioning tacking up the keyboard you included as a reference. As soon as I get my office back together (it was turned into a walk in closet when I retired and we're making room for it now in the attic), I expect I will do just that.

Ray


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## jweihl

RayRay said:


> I use a hardware QWERTY keyboard with my iPad and I've always brought up the iPad's virtual keyboard to get accents on French words, which seems clunky. This is terrific.
> 
> So far, I've discovered the following accents:
> 
> " followed by a vowel adds an umlaut, e.g. ä
> ' followed by a vowel adds an accent aigu, e.g., á
> ` followed by a vowel adds an accent grave, e.g., à
> ^ followed by a vowel adds a carot, e.g., â
> ~ followed by an n adds a virgulila, e.g., ñ
> Is there a list of the other key combinations that yield accents? I'm looking for a cedilla, in particular.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Ray


Apostrophe followed by c gives ç. 
Not really supported by this keyboard layout are a couple you can do with combination keys: option+q = œ and option+shift+2 = €


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## Bevdeforges

Must be a Mac difference, cause when I do right-alt+5 I get the € and apostrophe followed by c gives me ć (which I never use). I notice they give right-alt combinations for accent aigue e and a, whereas I only ever use the apostrophe followed by the letter. There is an accent grave to the left of the 1 on the upper row, which can be used the same way with all vowels on the international US keyboard, but I think you have to be sure to select the "US Int'l with dead keys" - I once didn't use the dead-key version and had to go back and re-set up the keyboard. 

Long story short, I was told a long time ago that selecting a "Brazilian" keyboard was very nearly the same thing as the US International one. Checked it out one time and it was close, but there are a few differences. 

If you ever need something to read sometime, check out the entry for "Keyboard layout" in Wikipedia. There are SO many different alternatives - many of which you can set up on your computer just for fun!


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## RayRay

Bevdeforges said:


> ...Long story short, I was told a long time ago that selecting a "Brazilian" keyboard was very nearly the same thing as the US International one. Checked it out one time and it was close, but there are a few differences...


There is an extensive set of Apple keyboard layouts including examples of each keyboard layout available at How to Identify MacBook Keyboard Layout?. Worth a look when considering how far from US standard a keyboard is. 

I hoped to get a US standard keyboard on a MacBook Air or Pro from BackOffice...and they do have them. However, as the holidays approached last year, the ones with the US keyboards seemed to disappear first. So I waited for the "Thanksgiving" sale (even in France!), and bought one from Apple with a US QWERTY keyboard. If one can wait...BackOffice has some great refurbished products with guarantees at excellent prices. 

Ray


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## RayRay

jweihl said:


> Apostrophe followed by c gives ç.
> Not really supported by this keyboard layout are a couple you can do with combination keys: option+q = œ and option+shift+2 = €


Thank you for the cedilla! Much appreciated. I wonder if there is an ae combination as well as the oe combination. To trade a couple back that I do remember (because I use them so often)

€ = shift+option+2​£ = fn+option+3​¢ = fn+option+4​
Thanks, again.

Ray


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## Chrissippus

ARPC said:


> I’m shopping for a used laptop in France, I’m probably going to buy one from backmarket. It costs about 100 Euros more and limits my selection of processors etc if I insist on the QWERTY keyboard with my preferred American English key configuration , vs accepting the French version. I (mostly) touch type for my work and will change the settings to be the QWERTY American English anyway, but the keys will still of course be indicated in their French configuration . I’m trying to decide if it’s worth it to pay extra to force the American keyboard, or just take the French one and put little stickers over the keys that are different letters (mostly so my husband doesn’t have an aneurism when he tries to use it and they keys don’t type what they say they will).
> 
> Have any of you guys handled this? Is it a huge pain to remark the keys? I’m not relearning typing on a French keyboard. I’m definitely slightly overthinking it. Thanks for your thoughts!


If you can touch type English, then you can easily learn to touch type French. I am about halfway through that process now just by practicing my French vocabulary flashcards in Anki by typing the responses. In addition to learning touchtyping you get your spelling errors flagged. That's how I learned to touchtype Thai.


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## jweihl

Damn. I just discovered a super easy way for mac users to type accented characters. It's like on the iPad and iPhone, simply hold the letter down for about a second and a popup window will appear above it with all the accented versions of that letter. Pick the number of your choice and it inserts that character. Works with ACEILNOSUYZ keys. AE and OE ligatures are included!

łįkę thīš


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## noblesse

The keyboard on my MacBook Air has 'sticky' keys. You just hold down the letter as you type and a menu pops up with the various accents. 

With a trackpad, you just select the accented letter you want from the menu. You can also just hold down the key and type the number of the accented letter you want. The cedilla is c1.

I also have the virtual keyboards 'French' and 'French numerical', but I never used them because I don't know where the keys ARE on a AZERTY keyboard!

As for buying an Apple product, I bought my laptop in Ireland last year and brought it back with me on the ferry. I had to buy AppleCare in France, though, as you can't buy it in a country you don't live in. As a French resident returning from an EU country, I was not controlled at all in Roscoff.


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## noblesse

jweihl said:


> Damn. I just discovered a super easy way for mac users to type accented characters. It's like on the iPad and iPhone, simply hold the letter down for about a second and a popup window will appear above it with all the accented versions of that letter. Pick the number of your choice and it inserts that character. Works with ACEILNOSUYZ keys. AE and OE ligatures are included!
> 
> łįkę thīš


SNAP!


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