# living on rustic land



## sherry09

Hi, About ten years ago a couple who a friend of mine knows bought a piece of land in the Algarve, not sure if it was rustic or agricultural, they built a very nice log cabin but didnt raise it off the ground. A neighbour told the camera and they were given a very small fine to pay, nothing more was said after that and they are still living there now. I am thinking of doing the same and buying a plot that already has electric and water attached to it, has anyone else done the same and if so any fines??


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## BodgieMcBodge

This is similar to what we are thinking of doing in Portugal having met several people who have unofficially built shelters to create small holdings and have lived in them for years with no trouble. A lot seems to depend on the the people near by and if they are accept or cause trouble.


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## steve01

You can do it, several people do, mostly they pretend to still live in the UK.
You'll never have an official address, can't ask for a residence permit - so therefore can't officially be here for more than six months, can't vote, can't claim any benefits here, can't register a car in Portugal, i don't believe you can join the health service, and probably other things as well
And of course it is illegal - but as most of the politicians in europe in our era seem to believe they're entirely above the law it shouldn't come as any surprise if we behave the same.
Best of luck


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## canoeman

As steve01 says it's illegal so you take the chance of fines not necessarily small, you could also be compelled to remove illegal build, your maximum length of stay is 3 months without having to register Residence (6 month has ended) it is risky and getting more so I wouldn't advise it.

If you buy a plot with electricity and water it's unlikely to be Rustic (farmland) and therefore more likely that you would be caught


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## oronero

canoeman said:


> ...your maximum length of stay is 3 months without having to register Residence (6 month has ended) it is risky and getting more so I wouldn't advise it.


*Canoeman*, is this 3 months in a year or can you get away with two 3 month stints without registering for residency?

I believe that if you are there for over 183 days in a year that you are supposed to declare yourself to the tax authorities here and there, or has that also changed.


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## canoeman

Sorry but it's a yes and no, and depends on a number of factors, EU law on Residency which is common to all EU countries is you cannot be a Resident in two EU countries at one time and you must Register that Residency (UK the exemption as it has no national registration requirements) within 1 month of your 3rd month or sooner.

So yes you could do max 3 months -1 day, then out for 3 months, back, out but the catch is the UK end if you want to retain UK Residency and Portugal's Financas definition of a Tax Resident see below, providing you don't break the second definition and keep under the 183 day rule then yes it's possible


Financas definition of a Tax Resident is (relates to a Tax Year so January to December)

Stays in Portugal more than 183 days, with or without interruption; 

Having stayed there for less than 183 days, has at his own disposal on 31st
December of that year a dwelling place in such conditions that it may be inferred
that there is the intention to keep and occupy it as an habitual abode;

All that said it is perfectly possible to be a considered as a tax resident by both HMRC & Financas


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## travelling-man

This is probably a silly question but as there are no passport checks as you go in and out of the UK or Portugal how the hell do they know how long you've been here?


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## canoeman

Your passports are scanned entering UK whether a record is kept? but with these Residence and Tax issues should you be caught or investigated for any reason you have to prove you have or haven't been here the correct time/s not the authorities.


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## travelling-man

Thanks..... I've been in and out of the UK about 4 times in the last 2 years and as far as I know, they weren't scanned on at least 3 of those occasions because I just held it open as I walked past the immigration desk and they just waved me through...... maybe it something they don't always do. 

Then again, maybe they just don't care...... they do after all let pretty much anyone into the UK.


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## oronero

Thanks Canoeman for that. I need to be over there but do not want to register as a resident until my car has been restored, otherwise I shall have to pay the ISV on it!

When I checked the ISV for the car it worked out at around 15,000 Euros, due to the engine size and the emissions, that's after they had deducted the 50% for it being over 30 years old. 

I believe as a Portuguese national/resident you are also allowed to bring a car in free of ISV, once every 10 years, but again you must not sell it within 5 years or else you need to pay the ISV on a sliding scale.


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## canoeman

No as a *new* Resident you can bring 1 car "free" of ISV providing you meet the prior ownership and Residence criteria, yes it does say once every 10 years but as your then a Resident you cannot then meet the ownership and Residence criteria to bring another in "free" of ISV.
The ownership period is as far as I know is 12 months from matriculation, you must remain a Resident and you cannot sell, hire or lease the car during that 12 months


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## travelling-man

Would there be anything to stop you buying a car in a different country & registering it in your name & storing it for a year there & then importing it into Portugal as a tax free import?


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## oronero

I will reply on a car matriculation thread, otherwise nobody will find this information easily.


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## canoeman

The issue is that as a Resident in Portugal you can't then live in another EU country for a year to meet the ownership and *residence* criteria, you'd need to relinquish your Residence here, register in the other country for 12 months then return to Portugal, really don't see why they complicate life by mentioning this 10 year period.

Better to finish here, then restart a new thread we'll all get confused otherwise


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## sherry09

steve01 said:


> You can do it, several people do, mostly they pretend to still live in the UK.
> You'll never have an official address, can't ask for a residence permit - so therefore can't officially be here for more than six months, can't vote, can't claim any benefits here, can't register a car in Portugal, i don't believe you can join the health service, and probably other things as well
> And of course it is illegal - but as most of the politicians in europe in our era seem to believe they're entirely above the law it shouldn't come as any surprise if we behave the same.
> Best of luck


Thanks, at the moment i am renting a log cabin which is raised off the ground on a rustic plot of land, my landlady has had it here for years, with water and electricity. I already have my residency, I have a doctor and i'm registering my car here too. I'm not intending to do a stone built house but merely a mobile home and live off the land, I have seen something I like which is being classed as agricultural, it has neighbours both sides who i've spoken to and both recieved planning permission and i'm thinking in that case its possible I could get it too??? I have thought also to inquire and see if they will let me put a mobile home on in the meantime.


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## canoeman

What did they receive planning permission for? if the plot is truly agricultural then the neighbours would have the right to buy, so cover that issue in your negotiations.

Danger with asking if you could put a mobile on site is a, refusal and b, there then aware of you, ask a general hypothetical question of the Camaras Engineers department


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## Micksantacruz

We drove to portugal last year catching the dover ferry to calias. At dover our passports were glanced at but not scanned. We had the car full of stuff for our house including a washer. The car was not searched we drove straight onto the ferry and locked the car. On arrival to Calias it was about 3am we drove off the ferry straight onto the motorways no Custom check in fact no office ! On the return trip a very similar experience.


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## canoeman

Yes, we've had same and equally no controls what so ever on the French, Spanish or Spanish Portuguese borders but should the need arise you have 2 ferry crossing to substantiate the time you where abroad, if you needed to prove for any reason when you where here or not


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## sherry09

canoeman said:


> What did they receive planning permission for? if the plot is truly agricultural then the neighbours would have the right to buy, so cover that issue in your negotiations.
> 
> Danger with asking if you could put a mobile on site is a, refusal and b, there then aware of you, ask a general hypothetical question of the Camaras Engineers department


One neighbour built a large stone villa and the other side has a stone bungalow, going to find out more on monday.

Yes I will be careful what I say...maybe ask if I can put a work cabin on it!


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## sherry09

My passport wasnt scanned either I just held it up as I walked through


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## BodgieMcBodge

*scanning*

You find I/D scanner system at UK air boarders not at land (sea) boarders, Same at Portugal I/D scanner at Oporto Airport but not on roads from Spain. This is first check for excluded persons as there are many more passengers through Gatwick in one day than Dover. For uk tax people have always used Air/Boat tickets as name is on manifests so can be internet checked and not the I/D scanner. Portugal tax people should be the same.




sherry09 said:


> My passport wasnt scanned either I just held it up as I walked through


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## canoeman

Don't get bogged down on if your passport is scanned or not, it only becomes an issue should you need to prove for any reason the time you've spent in or out of Portugal


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## steve01

Having this kind of existence is something i have a lot of sympathy with it.

The idea that you can live an have as little an impact on the world as possibleand be self sufficient is great - 
The idea that you therefore shouldn't contribute taxes, health payments etc falls down when you have the benefits of public roads, get your kids educated, use airports, hospitals (cost of millions of some tax payers money) - even if you make a minimal payment , have the same legal rights- even if you don't contribute taxes to fund Police, Fire, Ambulance, libraries, museums, town councils, public water / drainage, sewerage treatment,courts, health centres goverment and endless other facilities is where it all goes horribly wrong.

Personally i couldn't spend my entire life looking over my shoulder, waiting for some kind person to inform on me and waiting for the knock on the door


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## sherry09

steve01 said:


> Having this kind of existence is something i have a lot of sympathy with it.
> 
> The idea that you can live an have as little an impact on the world as possibleand be self sufficient is great -
> The idea that you therefore shouldn't contribute taxes, health payments etc falls down when you have the benefits of public roads, get your kids educated, use airports, hospitals (cost of millions of some tax payers money) - even if you make a minimal payment , have the same legal rights- even if you don't contribute taxes to fund Police, Fire, Ambulance, libraries, museums, town councils, public water / drainage, sewerage treatment,courts, health centres goverment and endless other facilities is where it all goes horribly wrong.
> 
> Personally i couldn't spend my entire life looking over my shoulder, waiting for some kind person to inform on me and waiting for the knock on the door


I do agree with you and I'm not wanting to avoid paying the correct taxes, I'm hoping to buy the land and then apply for planning permission straight away, I've found it hard finding a plot that already had planning permission and even when you do find one the price goes up quite considerably! I dont have a great deal of money but enough to get this and put a wooden house or something like a park home on it, certainly apply to have it legal but hopefully live on it in the meantime


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## canoeman

If the land falls with the Camara PDM as urbana then you should get planning permissio even if it's classified rustica, but you might not get permission for a park type home but might for a log cabin of a certain quality, go to Camara web site or offices, PDM is available and will show exact areas that classify as buildable a rule of thumb if the road is TARMACED then PDM is generally a minimum of 50 mtrs from centre of road


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## sherry09

canoeman said:


> If the land falls with the Camara PDM as urbana then you should get planning permissio even if it's classified rustica, but you might not get permission for a park type home but might for a log cabin of a certain quality, go to Camara web site or offices, PDM is available and will show exact areas that classify as buildable a rule of thumb if the road is TARMACED then PDM is generally a minimum of 50 mtrs from centre of road


Thanks for the info  
Could I just ask though..what does PDM stand for?
The land is approx 100 mtrs from a tarmaced road


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## canoeman

Plan Directo Municipal a master plan for each individual Camara reviewed every 10 years I believe and shows land useage and designations within the Camara boundaries, so it'll show land designated for industrial use, urban, rustic, protected etc every Camara has one so it's a way of checking the status of any land your interested in, it would also possibly show plans or proposals for new roads etc.


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## sherry09

canoeman said:


> Plan Directo Municipal a master plan for each individual Camara reviewed every 10 years I believe and shows land useage and designations within the Camara boundaries, so it'll show land designated for industrial use, urban, rustic, protected etc every Camara has one so it's a way of checking the status of any land your interested in, it would also possibly show plans or proposals for new roads etc.


Thats brilliant Thankyou! I'll be going to the Camera sometime tomorrow, you've been a big help :clap2:


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## sherry09

canoeman said:


> Plan Directo Municipal a master plan for each individual Camara reviewed every 10 years I believe and shows land useage and designations within the Camara boundaries, so it'll show land designated for industrial use, urban, rustic, protected etc every Camara has one so it's a way of checking the status of any land your interested in, it would also possibly show plans or proposals for new roads etc.


I took your advice on viewing the PDM at the Camera and found that the plot had now been classed as ecological land! They said that the owner would have already got this information! Apparantly its now considered unsafe because of a crack in the barragem...if the crack goes then all the plots now considered unsafe will dissapear apparantly! They gave me a map of all the safe areas that I could buy which I would get permission to live on. Thanks for your info!


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## canoeman

Said it was useful saved you a costly mistake, armed with that info you should be a able to find a suitable plot knowing that you should get permission to build


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## steve01

Really like the way this thread has turned out - well done to all contributors


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## sherry09

canoeman said:


> Said it was useful saved you a costly mistake, armed with that info you should be a able to find a suitable plot knowing that you should get permission to build


Yes thats right and where would we be without this forum! Thanks Canoeman...keep up the good work :clap2: 
ps: Just in case anyone wants to know its the barragem in Silves


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## AndyCY

Hello Sherry!

I know it's an old topic, but could you please share with us how it all turned out for you?

For now, my wife and I live in Silves in a rented house, but we have pretty much the same idea of buying the rustic land which could be turned to urban (it is close to the road or whatever the nowadays conditions are) and we would really appreciate any information.


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