# Attitudes about public safety and weapons?



## flasher702

Any other American expats having cultural struggles with this? I grew up in rural eastern Washington with a closet full of guns so it's a bit strange to deal with people who think only criminals have guns. Plenty of americans are anti-gun but they are used to the idea that it's a risk we have in our society. Are europeans in denial about public safety risks?

This kind of bigoted attitude that USA is dangerous and Europe is all wine and butterflies certainly seems to be prevalent despite being rather unjustified. In which countries did mobs recently murder bankers when there was a financial collapse? In which countries was there recently rioting deaths over systemic racism and employment? Terrorism warnings were just issued for which region? I should probably think of a polite way to address this misconception when it comes up. Last time I was staying in Germany I mostly stuck to my all-purpose "USA is very diverse" response when asked about violence rates in USA but with recent events I'll probably need a more comprehensive response. 

I'm being told to be vigilant and not advertise that I'm a foreigner. How do I reconcile that with locals who might be highly opposed to even admitting there is a risk? I don't want them loudly telling people at a public setting that I'm an American, I want to ensure that my fiance and I are safe at public spaces but I certainly don't want people thinking I'm "paranoid" or otherwise not including me in activities or being singled out for additional scrutiny at security checkpoints.


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## Bevdeforges

flasher702 said:


> In which countries did mobs recently murder bankers when there was a financial collapse? In which countries was there recently rioting deaths over systemic racism and employment? Terrorism warnings were just issued for which region? .


Do tell - I've apparently missed some news recently. There have been terrorist warnings issued for Europe (and other parts of the world) by the US State department many times in the past. Fine, you keep an eye on the situation you find yourself in - just like you would in the US. 

Just try explaining to a European tourist in America how to scope out a part of town he or she should NOT be wandering around it. When I lived in Chicago, there were some European tourists who got themselves killed by wandering into some "bad" neighborhoods in the wrong part of town. Street smarts are specific to the part of the world you're in. If you are coming to live in Germany, you'll learn what parts of town or what kinds of events put you at risk and how to avoid potentially dangerous or difficult situations.

I've lived over here for the better part of 20 years now - amid bomb threats from the IRA in the UK and actual bombs on the métro in Paris. It's not just Americans the terrorists are after these days. But your chances of being caught up in a terrorist incident are pretty small. And, if you happen to be just the wrong place at the wrong time, chances are you can't do much about it anyhow. Those guys in Mumbai weren't checking passports - they were just shooting anything and anyone they saw.
Cheers,
Bev


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## flasher702

Bevdeforges said:


> Do tell - I've apparently missed some news recently.


Greece and France, respectively.


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## xabiaxica

I have to say I was completely gobsmacked to read this!!




Britain upgrades European travel advice due to rise in terror threat | World news | guardian.co.uk


you still won't see people wearing body armour though - & it just isn't part of the culture for ordinary citizens to carry guns

I'm not sure it's easy to get a licence to in any case


I really don't think we're in denial though - we just won't let it affect our daily lives


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## flasher702

"The foreign office [of Britain] is warning that "attacks could be indiscriminate, including in places frequented by expatriates and foreign travellers"."

See, it's not just us paranoid yankies! 

A little kevlar is part of my plan to NOT let it affect my daily life


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## xabiaxica

flasher702 said:


> "The foreign office [of Britain] is warning that "attacks could be indiscriminate, including in places frequented by expatriates and foreign travellers"."
> 
> See, it's not just us paranoid yankies!
> 
> A little kevlar is part of my plan to NOT let it affect my daily life


best check with the airline first as to whether or not you'll be able to carry one


they should also know whether or not you'll be able to get it through customs at this end



good luck, and come back & let us know


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## Bevdeforges

flasher702 said:


> Greece and France, respectively.


Rioting deaths over systemic racism and employment? Please... the cops are accused of killing a gypsy youth they were chasing for a crime. Like this doesn't happen regularly in the US with the ethnic groups there. Don't know where employment came into the picture. Yeah, we're having strikes over the age of retirement, but that's part of the "charm" of living in France.

I can probably match you headline for headline for news stories we see here - generally from the NY Times top stories, in fact - for stupid acts of violence or even "suspected terrorism" in the US and in Europe: didn't the NY police shoot up a bachelor party a couple years ago, killing the bridegroom? This past week in Boston there was a particularly brutal murder of a family for no apparent reason, and last week some guy in Texas killed his wife because his eggs were cold. 

I lived in the US for 41 years and read about this sort of stuff every day. But I don't hang out in bad neighborhoods and I only ever had one or two acquaintances who actually owned guns - one was a little psycho, I admit, but the other was a part-time sheriff's deputy and knew how to handle a weapon.

Wearing body armor isn't going to protect you from a determined terrorist. I don't believe there are any restrictions on importing or wearing a bullet proof vest in Europe - but you will draw attention to yourself because you'll be the only person so dressed (other than the cops IF there is an alert of some sort). 

When there is a heightened state of alert here in France, you'll see the CNS out in flak suits and carrying their machine guns - in the streets and in the métro. Other than the fact that most of these soldiers look like they are all of 14 or 15 years old (to me, anyhow), that definitely makes me feel safer than in the streets of the US, where the guys carrying the guns may or may not be part of the police force.

But, if you want to spend your time in Europe wearing a vest or other body armor, go for it. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## James3214

It appears that Europeans have a totally different view of 'public safety' and 'weapons' to what Americans have. How can Europeans 'be in denial about public safety' when most of them don't even know what it is like to live in an unsafe environment or possess a weapon? 
As regards the ‘heightened terror warnings’, I grew up in London at the height of the IRA bombing and although you were aware of it, you just got on with life, and suffered the disruption it invariably caused.
The threat of terrorism will always be there and you could be unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, it seems that there is obviously intelligence coming out about these latest threats which were not there back in for London in 2005 or leading up to my own American Airlines flight to NY on 12th Sept 2001!
If you grew up surrounded by guns in the closet, I think I can now understand why you feel so insecure and the need to wrap yourself up in kevlar clothing during your visit to Europe. But, believe me, Europe is a lot safer than you think despite the best efforts of the US authorities and media to make you think otherwise.


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## flasher702

Bevdeforges said:


> Rioting deaths over systemic racism and employment? Please... the cops are accused of killing a gypsy youth they were chasing for a crime.


I was referring to the arabic youth riots in the Paris suburbs. A little less recent than that.



> I can probably match you headline for headline for news stories we see here - generally from the NY Times top stories, in fact - for stupid acts of violence or even "suspected terrorism" in the US and in Europe


Indeed, that's my point. It's not that different. Except that we haven't had race riots or lynch mobs recently...





> but you will draw attention to yourself because you'll be the only person so dressed


It's a concealable vest, not a flack jacket, which is the norm for civilians and regular police officers (probably most of your police are wearing armor all the time and you just didn't notice). You should really look it up as some the concealable type II and II-A vests can be pretty convenient (at least when it isn't hot) and affordable. I suppose handguns aren't really a concern in europe since no one has them but they stop shrapnel which is the major cause of injury from terrorist bombings. BulletProofME.com Body Armor / Bullet proof Vests will customize a jacket for female fit and ship to europe 




> where the guys carrying the guns may or may not be part of the police force.


I am looking forward to that! Heck, even the police force here is not so trustworthy with their guns. They get all excited and shoot people for no reason sometimes. But for some reason Americans think it's just normal to hand a 20-24yo guy fresh out of police academy a gun and send him out into the city alone. I understand that many european countries they're more cautious about having their police carry guns.

Another difference is that for all their tolerance of the proliferation of handguns Americans FREAK OUT about big scary-looking guns. Police forces frequently don't even own any assault rifles and in places where they do keep them on hand they keep them out of sight of the public. Even in Washington DC with security and police everywhere I only saw 1 guard, on the steps of the white house, with a rifle. In europe it seems like the security forces frequently have no gun at all or they have an assault rifle.


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## flasher702

James3214 said:


> How can Europeans 'be in denial about public safety' when most of them don't even know what it is like to live in an unsafe environment or possess a weapon?


That is such an incredibly biased thing to say... You do know that the vast majority most Americans, even after 9/11 have never been within 500 miles of a terrorist bombing, right? Why do you keep spouting this nonsense about how USA is dangerous and Europe is so safe as the reason for these cultural differences?



> As regards the ‘heightened terror warnings’, I grew up in London at the height of the IRA bombing and although you were aware of it, you just got on with life, and suffered the disruption it invariably caused.


That's a pretty different attitude. You're afraid of a handgun, of which you would have quite a lot of personal control over whether or not that risk would ever affect you not to mention that they are in accurate and not horrible leather and you could just hide behind something or run away and be fine unless someone was after you specifically. On the other hand you are not afraid of the London subway being flooded with nerve gas which you have essentially zero control over except to not use the subway which would be rather impractical. So, have you ever thought about how to bridge that cultural divide and relate to americans? Or do you just stick to your ~"you're all paranoid because you have a shoddy, violent, society" attitude? Clearly this view is clearly not based on an objective assessment of personal risks. My risk of being shot in UK or USA is near-zero. My risk of being bombed on the west coast is near-zero. You profess a nonchalant attitude about how the risk of getting bombed in Europe, both currently and over the past few decades, is several orders of magnitude higher than it is in USA.

It really sounds like you're just not wanting to take responsibility for the risk with this "out of my control so why worry" attitude. In the case of the subway being bombed this makes a small amount of sense as it would significantly inconvenience you to avoid using it altogether but something as simple as checking for unattended packages or suspicious persons and wearing a vest when there are heightened alerts wouldn't inconvenience you at all so it really does come to belligerent denial, doesn't it? Brithish people are in denial about the high rate of terrorist bombings in the country and Americans are in denial about the high rate of nutjobs with handguns shooting people. It drove my g/f crazy that this same attitude was applied to STDs when she was trying to date people in europe. STD rates, another public safety risk where USA and Europe diverge culturally, in europe have been going up quickly in younger people. Perhaps they acquired this semi-irrational attitude about bombings from their parents and applied it to their sex lives?


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## Bevdeforges

flasher702 said:


> It drove my g/f crazy that this same attitude was applied to STDs when she was trying to date people in europe. STD rates, another public safety risk where USA and Europe diverge culturally, in europe have been going up quickly in younger people. Perhaps they acquired this semi-irrational attitude about bombings from their parents and applied it to their sex lives?


Wow, talk about stereotypes and over generalizations! It could also be that there is a reliable health care system in Europe, so even if you get an STD, you will be treated for it.

You say your risk of being shot in the USA is "near-zero" - how do you figure that? Even wearing your body armor a shot to the head would take you out. (OK, I used to date that part-time sheriff's deputy and learned a bit about law enforcement and firearms from him.) Over here there's less chance of getting shot simply because gun ownership is less prevalent - but perhaps a bit elevated if you're in "certain neighborhoods" or running from the cops. But that's the same back in the USA.

On the flip side, I could (and often do) easily say that Americans are kind of naive about violence because they have not had a war on their own territory in living memory. They're very gung ho about going "over there" to shoot up people, but haven't had to face the results of organized violence on their home turf. There are still plenty of folks here in Europe who had to carry on during the Blitz or in the middle of the shooting parts of WWII - plus deal with rationing, near-starvation, occupation and some of the other atrocities of war. A little thing like that could also account for some of the cultural differences in attitude.

Back when they were bombing the Paris subways, we took plenty of precautions, based on what information was available about the successful attempts. A friend of my husband's with family members working in the French security services told us how many bombs they defused in the month just after one of the successful bombings. None of that ever hit the media here. But everyone I know took precautions and to some extent still does. There was a big public campaign (that is still ongoing) urging people to report left parcels or suspicious activity to police. Leave your bag behind at the airport and they'll blow it up where everyone can hear the explosion. (Now, THAT leaves an impression!)

I think what I learned back then is that in France at least, there is considerably more "security" going on behind the scenes than most folks realize. The police have powers here that they don't have in the US. Like we've been saying, it's a big cultural difference, and if you're going to live here, you ultimately have to get used to how things work over here.
Cheers,
Bev


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## gerrit

I've lived in Belfast, the Troubles were over their height already but the traces and the stories people tell you all the time do tell how it was at their peak. In Spain there is the ETA who blow up some buildings (or people) from time to time (although they've been quite quiet recently) and then I believe Corsica also has a paramilitary separatist movement. Other than those, most security issues are actually political populist propaganda trying to push people to vote for them: fear is always going to get you electoral success.

The thing is not about being in denial ; on the contrary, Europeans tend to blow security risks out of proportions quite often. I so often heard how dangerous the cities in Western Europe have become (often there is a racist bias as people tend to blame it on immigrants from non-European countries or former East Bloc countries) and that it's almost impossible to walk alone at night in some areas of the cities.

While obviously there are areas where you better think twice before going (but that has always been and always will be and applies to cities in every corner of the world) much of the fear is fed by media who, purposely or indeliberately, feed people propaganda about how unsafe cities would be. The massive shift to right wing voting in Europe is partially a result of that, sadly enough.

I've lived in quite a few big cities (Istanbul, Dublin, Berlin, Belfast, ...) and have spent many nights in Brussels as well. Often I was on my own in the middle of the night. Never had a single issue. Never even felt afraid. Fear often exists in the heads of people who wish to be afraid. Terrorists often play the game as well, if people are afraid their goal is achieved even when the actual terrorist strike has not occured. I have walked on my own countless times in European big cities at night, including some of the neighbourhoods of Brussels, Barcelona and Dublin that have a bad reputation. Never had a single issue. My perception is that Europeans blow security concerns out of proportions rather than minimalising.

That said, the weapon ownership is a cultural difference. We Europeans mistrust people that are armed in general. We consider arms to be in good hands only when the people carrying them are licensed and trained to do so, usually army or police. When every person can arm himself and walk around in the streets with a weapon, I would feel very unsafe because this means every nutcase or aggressive person could just make a small riot escalate into a gun fight. Most Europeans don't consider being armed with being safe. Also, we are sceptic about the weapon lobby in the States.

That said, while weapons on the street are mistrusted by the average European, there are calls to allow ownership of weapons at home to self-defend in case of a robbery or so (I personally am against it, but some people advocate that). I'd say this leads to no good at all, a trained robber will much sooner shoot at you than the surprised inhabitant will grab his weapon for self-defense. Also, even if we talk about a criminal, injuring or killing someone to protect material stuff isn't exactly ethically justified IMO. 

Bottom line is: Europeans don't like to see people buying weapons without restrictions and don't want to see them in the streets unless we talk about policemen. A cultural difference with the US much more than bias or denying security concerns.


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## Coton90

Grüße zu allen, from the French side.

By way of introduction I lived and worked in Germany for 20 years in Giessen, Stuttgart, Zweibruecken and Kaiserslautern and I speak the language.

Are Europeans in denial about public safety risks? Not at all. They are very concerned with accidents involving firearms. They are concerned with children and young people finding Dad’s arsenal and intentionally or unintentionally causing an incident. They are concerned with events that happened in Erfurt in 2002, in Winnenden in 2009, in Finland last January and just recently in Lorach. They are concerned with firearms ending up in the hands of people who have no business having access to them. The fact of the matter is, every additional firearm on the street increases the statistical probability of an incident.

I can only amplify what others have said regarding the feeling of safety/well being many people have in Europe. In Zweibruecken, I could have left my doors unlocked had I chosen to do so without fear of a break-in. I was in 45 minutes North of Frankfurt in 1985 when the bomb exploded in the PX, but still, I felt safer in Germany than in the Washington DC area where I came from.

Just to clarify people’s perceptions of Americans as gun-toting fanatics, I do not own nor do I plan to obtain a firearm. We do have crime in the area of France where I live. They are mostly burglaries and most burglars here don’t carry guns. If an intruder does try to break in, my dog will alert me and I have pepper spray and a baseball bat handy. This provides more than adequate protection.

Tchuss


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## James3214

Jeez! why do you always jump to wrong conclusions from my posts? All I am saying is that Europe is relatively safe compared to other parts of the world and I don't live in fear of terrorist attacks or feel the need to dress up like 'Rambo' to go about my daily life. If my @rse ends up on the booking office window and my legs on platform 9 at the Hauptbahnhof then so be it!


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## gerrit

The whole world is relatively safe bar a few exceptions. Granted, if you go out walking in Baghdad without knowing which areas to avoid, if you go trekking in Afghanistan outside of Kabul, if you decide to cross Gaza while waving an israeli flag, or if you decide to walk into war zones like Somalia without being prepared where to go and how to act in case of hassle ... then you are taking huge risks and probably with very bad consequences.

However, if we put those very rare exceptions aside, most security alerts are blown out of proportion indeliberately or deliberately by the media and propaganda machines. And it seems to work as well because when talking to people, I often notice some are indeed scared. I have been in plenty of European big cities, including the more dodgy reputated areas, and in all that time I can think of exactly 3 incidents occuring (and none of them were more than a basic pickpocket attempt with some kicking and pushing)

The world is a lot safer than some people think it is, when using common sense wherever you are. However, it is things like weapons in the wrong hands that do cause accidents and bloodsoaked dramas. The number of victims of riots ending up with a shot will be much much higher than the number of victims of crimes where people think they can protect themselves against by bearing a weapon. Most Europeans luckily don't take it that far that they would wish a free weapon possesion like it exists in the States (it is bad enough that many Europeans advocate gun possesion to protect your territory against robbery)


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## fido

I can't imagine what it would be like to only feel safe when carrying a firearm. I think if I lived in such a society I would deliberately go out unarmed and looking for trouble, just to end it all! If I owned a gun I can't really envisage any circumstance in which I could bring myself to use it against another person. They would be far more likely to take it off me and use it to shoot me. My advice to Americans who like to carry guns is to stay in America! On the other hand, you may find Switzerland worth considering, although they have a very different sort of gun culture to the 'States.


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## twostep

flasher702 said:


> Any other American expats having cultural struggles with this? I grew up in rural eastern Washington with a closet full of guns so it's a bit strange to deal with people who think only criminals have guns. Plenty of americans are anti-gun but they are used to the idea that it's a risk we have in our society. Are europeans in denial about public safety risks?.


There is a bit of a difference between somewhere in the sticks of the US and downtown Munich:>) Plus - there is quite a pro-gun movement but you may not run its circles. Guns were the reason my Better Half learned to read and write fluent German. I refused to translate gun cataloges and negotiations.



flasher702 said:


> This kind of bigoted attitude that USA is dangerous and Europe is all wine and butterflies certainly seems to be prevalent despite being rather unjustified. In which countries did mobs recently murder bankers when there was a financial collapse? In which countries was there recently rioting deaths over systemic racism and employment? Terrorism warnings were just issued for which region? I should probably think of a polite way to address this misconception when it comes up. Last time I was staying in Germany I mostly stuck to my all-purpose "USA is very diverse" response when asked about violence rates in USA but with recent events I'll probably need a more comprehensive response. .


And the suicide rate in Chicago went up during the Bear issue. What is wrong with voicing your opinion instead of powder room conversation?




flasher702 said:


> I'm being told to be vigilant and not advertise that I'm a foreigner. How do I reconcile that with locals who might be highly opposed to even admitting there is a risk? I don't want them loudly telling people at a public setting that I'm an American, I want to ensure that my fiance and I are safe at public spaces but I certainly don't want people thinking I'm "paranoid" or otherwise not including me in activities or being singled out for additional scrutiny at security checkpoints.


You do sound a bit paranoid. My personal impression.

Pro and anti gun is an eternal topic. I am on the pro side. I consider some working tools others treasured works of art. Does carying make me feel safer? It does not replace common sense and a bit of precaution.
Clubs - Lists
Something on the lighter side and in Europe.


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## gerrit

fido said:


> I can't imagine what it would be like to only feel safe when carrying a firearm. I think if I lived in such a society I would deliberately go out unarmed and looking for trouble, just to end it all! If I owned a gun I can't really envisage any circumstance in which I could bring myself to use it against another person. They would be far more likely to take it off me and use it to shoot me. My advice to Americans who like to carry guns is to stay in America! On the other hand, you may find Switzerland worth considering, although they have a very different sort of gun culture to the 'States.


Amen to that. Guns belong in the hands of cops and the military. In any other case: hands off. Especially because those with a short temper will be the first ones to opt for the violent solution rather than for dialogue in case there's an issue...

You can own a weapon in Europe if you are licensed but you can only use it at your local gun club. To carry the gun from your home to the gun club, it has to be not loaded. However, the irony is that in some countries you can buy very scary knives and swords without a license or age requirement. Back in the Czech Republic I often saw people with a sword on the metro. Not sure what it was for, but I can tell you I felt relieved when they left the subway the next station


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## nigelstephnie

Being safe is what every civilian wants. Nobody wants to wear an armour if not in battlefield


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## jimoou

*old criminal behavior*

My girl friend and I are considering leaving the U.S. and exploring various locations. One concern of mine is that I have a criminal history(22 years clean). Would this be an issue if we wanted to move to Germany?


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## James3214

jimoou said:


> My girl friend and I are considering leaving the U.S. and exploring various locations. One concern of mine is that I have a criminal history(22 years clean). Would this be an issue if we wanted to move to Germany?


After 22 years I wouldn't of thought the criminal record would be the major problem either in Germany or the rest of Europe. I would worry more about the problems associated with trying to get a work visa or sponsor to get you into Europe in the first place. Not impossible but if you have the right skills in demand it makes it a lot easier and I don't think they would worry about what happened 22 years ago.


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## expatgurl2b

I'm currently living in Florida, and the number of gun crimes that I am hearing has been increasing horribly. Within the last 6 weeks, we've had 3 police officers killed, 1 by a 16 year old. I can't tell you how many times I will hear a helicopter circling the area I live in...and it is close to heavily tourist areas in the Tampa Bay area. So eventually going to an area where guns aren't as easily available, is definitely a goal of mine.


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## larochelle

I have found that most large cities in the world where ever you go have areas in them that have a reputation for crime and violence, which is often exaggerated. America is the same, small town USA is generally very safe just like similar areas in europe. You have certainly more chance of being hit by a bus or a car than getting robbed and shot. No need for the Kevlar unless your on the front line in Afghanistan.


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## gozer87

I've lived in Germany several times over the past 20 years and there are certainly places you don't go unless you're looking for trouble, so to speak. There's been an uptick in property crime around here, mostly targeting American GI's, probably because the criminals figure we won't report it. Sometimes you get the odd anti-Ami fight, but that has more to do with alcohol fueled buffonery than with a genuine danger in being openly American, if you will.


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## DavidO

Of course Europe experiences violent crime and can be dangerous. Probably every European city has "no-go" areas where you may not feel safe.

But it's all about degrees of safety and danger. You could say that the USA is safe relative to Colombia or South Africa. And you can sure say that Europe is safe relative to the U.S.

Regardless of who's statistics you use, violent crime - and especially gun crime - in the USA is many times the level of any European country. The U.S. murder rate, for example, is approx. six times that of Germany.

So saying the U.S. is dangerous and Europe is safe is not spouting nonsense at all. On a relative basis it's absolutely true.

I also know it's true on a personal level. During 20 years in my home town of Stockton, CA, I faced more personal danger than in my 30+ years in Europe. In fact, I can't remember feeling threatened at any time or place in Europe.


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