# Does filing make sense?



## P123

Hi all,

I just filed my FBAR for 2015 (2 accounts) and was wondering what some of you would suggest I do regarding the following:

I don't meet income filing requirements for 2015. I did however, sell my apt for a $20,000 profit. The apt was my primary residence for the last 5 years and it was never rented it out and the profit was well within the $250,000 capital gains threshold and according to the IRS website I don't need to file the profit.

The crux of my question is this: because I sold my apt I now have + $200,000 on my FBAR that was not there the previous reporting year--would it be beneficial to file a 1040 and inform the IRS that the + $200,000 is purely from the sale?

Or should I just wait to see if they reach out to me?

Thanks


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## Bevdeforges

I'd just wait and see if they "reach out" to you - but I'm betting they won't. They really don't do much with the FBAR data and they certainly don't seem to compare one year to the next. With the possible exception of if they happen to spot something seriously inconsistent on your income tax filing. But if you don't have to file, they honestly prefer that you don't do so.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

You are obliged to file a U.S. income tax return. The filing threshold is based on Gross Income which the IRS defines this way: "Gross income means all income you receive in the form of money, goods, property, and services that isn't exempt from tax, including any income from sources outside the United States *or from the sale of your main home (even if you can exclude part or all of it).*" (Emphasis mine.)


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## P123

BBCWatcher said:


> You are obliged to file a U.S. income tax return. The filing threshold is based on Gross Income which the IRS defines this way: "Gross income means all income you receive in the form of money, goods, property, and services that isn't exempt from tax, including any income from sources outside the United States *or from the sale of your main home (even if you can exclude part or all of it).*" (Emphasis mine.)


_*Reporting Gain or Loss on Your Home Sale


"Determine whether you need to report the gain from your home. You need to report the gain if ANY of the following is true.

You have taxable gain on your home sale (or on the residential portion of your property if you made separate calculations for home and business) and do not qualify to exclude.

You received Form 1099-S. If so, you must report the sale even if you have no taxable gain to report.

You wish to report your gain as taxable gain even though some or all of it is eligible for exclusion. You may wish to do this if, for example, you plan to sell another property that qualifies as a home within the next two years, and that property is likely to have a larger gain. If you choose to report, rather than exclude, your taxable gain, you can go back later and undo that choice by filing an amended return, but only within 3 calendar years after the year of sale.

If NONE of the three bullets above is true, you do not need to report your home sale on your tax return. If you did not make separate home and business calculations on your property, skip to Reporting Deductions Related to Your Home Sale , later."
*_
I did all the tests and read all the fine print on this publication. According to the info published here I do not need to file.


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## P123

Bevdeforges said:


> I'd just wait and see if they "reach out" to you - but I'm betting they won't. They really don't do much with the FBAR data and they certainly don't seem to compare one year to the next. With the possible exception of if they happen to spot something seriously inconsistent on your income tax filing. But if you don't have to file, they honestly prefer that you don't do so.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thanks Bev, I appreciate your reply. I agree with you--I want to do the right thing by the IRS but I also often wonder if I am being "too" thoughtful. They probably don't want people to file if they don't "have" to. 

Also, I appreciate your reply BBC Watcher--as with all things in life, conflicting opinions spur thought so your perspective is helpful.


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## iota2014

> I did all the tests and read all the fine print on this publication. According to the info published here I do not need to file.


And reassuringly, the tax code says the same. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/121, which begins:



> 26 U.S. Code § 121 - Exclusion of gain from sale of principal residence
> 
> Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
> 
> US Code
> Notes
> IRS Rulings
> Authorities (CFR)
> prev | next
> (a) Exclusion
> Gross income shall not include gain from the sale or exchange of property if, during the 5-year period ending on the date of the sale or exchange, such property has been owned and used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer’s principal residence for periods aggregating 2 years or more.


So your analysis is clearly correct - you don't need to report the sale. And there's no advantage in filing unnecessarily in order to justify having $200,000 in your account. Why shouldn't you? There's nothing suspicious about such a sum.


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## BBCWatcher

Wrong, guys/gals.

The filing threshold requirement is its own, separate requirement. You don't get to look at the tax rate of this income or its excludability when considering the filing threshold. There are many, many occasions when individuals are obliged to file U.S. tax returns but do not owe any U.S. income tax -- or even when they are eligible to receive refundable tax credits or tax refunds, in which case they'd be particularly financially foolish not to file.

Here's the correct section of the tax code, the section that establishes the filing thresholds. Please note the following (quoting directly):

_(c) Certain income earned abroad or from sale of residence
For purposes of this section, *gross income shall be computed without regard to the exclusion* provided for in section 121 (relating to gain from sale of principal residence) *and without regard to the exclusion* provided for in section 911 (relating to citizens or residents of the United States living abroad)._ (Emphasis mine.)

You can also refer to IRS Publication 501, page 2 (in the 2015 edition at least).


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## iota2014

I would interpret that as meaning that if you're required to report the gain, for instance if it's over $200,000, you should report the full amount and then deduct the $200,000.

The OP's gain meets the criteria for non-reporting:


> Gross income shall not include gain from the sale or exchange of property if, during the 5-year period ending on the date of the sale or exchange, such property has been owned and used by the taxpayer as the taxpayer’s principal residence for periods aggregating 2 years or more.


so he has no need to claim the exclusion.

The tax code and Publication 523 both clearly tell the OP not to report the gain on his return. To file a return in order *not* to report income would be slightly nuts.


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## BBCWatcher

If you'd like to characterize the tax code as "nuts" that's your private privilege, but the U.S. tax code couldn't be any clearer on this point. Publication 523 says that, if you meet the requirements, you don't have to report the gain on your tax return. It notably doesn't say you don't have to file a tax return.

I don't make the rules, don't shoot the messenger, etc. This is the way Congress wants it. We get the tax code they want, not the one we might want. And, as it happens, one among many reasons Congress might want it this way is to trigger a Form 8938 filing if that filing threshold is met, plus a Schedule B checkbox, plus your sworn representation that year about the amount and nature of your (mostly zero) income, to give dumb people the rope to hang themselves, as it were. Regardless, it's not at all unusual for a tax return to include lots of zeros and blanks. Most of them do, and that too is a sworn statement.


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## P123

BBCWatcher said:


> If you'd like to characterize the tax code as "nuts" that's your private privilege, but the U.S. tax code couldn't be any clearer on this point. Publication 523 says that, if you meet the requirements, you don't have to report the gain on your tax return. It notably doesn't say you don't have to file a tax return.
> 
> I don't make the rules, don't shoot the messenger, etc. This is the way Congress wants it. We get the tax code they want, not the one we might want. And, as it happens, one among many reasons Congress might want it this way is to trigger a Form 8938 filing if that filing threshold is met, plus a Schedule B checkbox, plus your sworn representation that year about the amount and nature of your (mostly zero) income, to give dumb people the rope to hang themselves, as it were. Regardless, it's not at all unusual for a tax return to include lots of zeros and blanks. Most of them do, and that too is a sworn statement.


It's all pretty confusing I must say--confusing because IRS publications contradict themselves. I have spoken to two separate CPAs from reputable expat tax firms who both say I don't have to file/report anything. 

I don't know if they are right or wrong...I just know that there is a lot of conflicting info out there EVEN at the source.


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## P123

BBCWatcher said:


> If you'd like to characterize the tax code as "nuts" that's your private privilege, but the U.S. tax code couldn't be any clearer on this point. Publication 523 says that, if you meet the requirements, you don't have to report the gain on your tax return. It notably doesn't say you don't have to file a tax return.
> 
> I don't make the rules, don't shoot the messenger, etc. This is the way Congress wants it. We get the tax code they want, not the one we might want. And, as it happens, one among many reasons Congress might want it this way is to trigger a Form 8938 filing if that filing threshold is met, plus a Schedule B checkbox, plus your sworn representation that year about the amount and nature of your (mostly zero) income, to give dumb people the rope to hang themselves, as it were. Regardless, it's not at all unusual for a tax return to include lots of zeros and blanks. Most of them do, and that too is a sworn statement.


Ok...

Single Filing threshold: $10,300

Profit from sale of Apt ($20,000) is viewed as Gross Income...BUT exempt from taxation as it falls under primary residence exemption.

How the heck do I go about filing this? Can I do this on a normal 1040? Is this something I should be capable of doing myself with some good tax software?

Thanks to anyone who has some good advice...I need it :noidea:


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## Bevdeforges

Just a small point - Congress makes the tax laws and empowers the IRS to generate the regulations required to administer the laws. I really doubt that Congress is involved in the definitions of "gross income" or what is or isn't included in the filing threshold. It's fairly well acknowledged that there are sections of the tax regs that are contradictory. https://www.irs.gov/Tax-Professionals/Tax-Code,-Regulations-and-Official-Guidance
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014

Philipp123 said:


> Ok...
> 
> Single Filing threshold: $10,300
> 
> Profit from sale of Apt ($20,000) is viewed as Gross Income...BUT exempt from taxation as it falls under primary residence exemption.
> 
> How the heck do I go about filing this? Can I do this on a normal 1040? Is this something I should be capable of doing myself with some good tax software?
> 
> Thanks to anyone who has some good advice...I need it :noidea:


Publication 17 says (p.115):



> Reporting the Sale
> Do not report the 2015 sale of your main home on your tax return unless:
> - You have a gain and do not qualify to exclude all of it,
> - You have a gain and choose not to exclude it, or
> - You received Form 1099-S.
> If any of these conditions apply, report the entire gain or loss. For details on how to report the gain or loss, see the Instructions for Schedule D (Form 1040) and the Instructions for Form 8949.


https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p17.pdf#page111

So if you decide to file, if none of those conditions apply you just don't mention the sale on your 1040. But don't forget Schedule B.

I wouldn't worry. You're not likely to hear from them, whatever you decide to do. And if you did hear from them, all you would have to do is explain why you were confused about what you were supposed to do. You won't be the first.


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## P123

iota2014 said:


> Publication 17 says (p.115):
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p17.pdf#page111
> 
> So if you decide to file, if none of those conditions apply you just don't mention the sale on your 1040. But don't forget Schedule B.
> 
> I wouldn't worry. You're not likely to hear from them, whatever you decide to do. And if you did hear from them, all you would have to do is explain why you were confused about what you were supposed to do. You won't be the first.


Thanks Iota, but one thing still eludes me--when filling out Gross Income I would put in $20,000 (from the, e-hem, excludable profit of my apartment) as that's what prompting the necessity I file to begin with...so how do I then explain that I have gross income of $20,000 but don't owe them anything?

Thanks!


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## iota2014

Philipp123 said:


> Thanks Iota, but one thing still eludes me--when filling out Gross Income I would put in $20,000 (from the, e-hem, excludable profit of my apartment) as that's what prompting the necessity I file to begin with...so how do I then explain that I have gross income of $20,000 but don't owe them anything?
> 
> Thanks!


Well, that's one of the reasons that if it was me, I wouldn't file. It doesn't make any sense to define "Gross Income" differently depending if you're computing filing threshold or filling in the "Gross Income" part of the 1040.

If I were filing in this situation, I wouldn't include the gain anywhere on the 1040. That's what they say, and nowhere tells you otherwise, and it makes no difference to tax due, so I'd just leave it out.

You could attach a written explanation if you want to.


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## maz57

I don't know the answer to your question but here are a few guiding principals for expat filing which have worked well for me:

1. Keep it simple. No point in getting the IRS more confused than it already is. CBT in and of itself makes no sense so expecting the minute details of it to make any sense is hopeless.

2. Never tell the IRS anything they don't already know.

3. In grey areas where the interpretation is unclear or conflicting, go with what works for you, not with what works for the IRS. If they have a problem they will "get in touch" (they won't, see number 2 above) at which point you can cite chapter and verse about why you did what you did.


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## P123

maz57 said:


> I don't know the answer to your question but here are a few guiding principals for expat filing which have worked well for me:
> 
> 1. Keep it simple. No point in getting the IRS more confused than it already is. CBT in and of itself makes no sense so expecting the minute details of it to make any sense is hopeless.
> 
> 2. Never tell the IRS anything they don't already know.
> 
> 3. In grey areas where the interpretation is unclear or conflicting, go with what works for you, not with what works for the IRS. If they have a problem they will "get in touch" (they won't, see number 2 above) at which point you can cite chapter and verse about why you did what you did.


Thanks Maz for your input. Curios though, what do you mean by "they won't, see number 2 above"? And CBT? Thanks and sorry I am not very hip :eyebrows:


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## Nononymous

Philipp123 said:


> Thanks Maz for your input. Curios though, what do you mean by "they won't, see number 2 above"? And CBT? Thanks and sorry I am not very hip :eyebrows:


I can't see any possible benefit to filing a return in this case. No real downside either. But great inspiration for a long theological debate. 

#NeverFile


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## P123

Nononymous said:


> I can't see any possible benefit to filing a return in this case. No real downside either. But great inspiration for a long theological debate.
> 
> #NeverFile


It is very confusing and time consuming and it really angers me. We are all so bullied and scared into filing...I just want to know what Is legally required of me and how to file? Accountants lobby the IRS and the IRS continues to confuse us and throw contradicting publications at us that are always changing. I am afraid to make a mistake filing so I am bullied into hiring a "Pro" who also doesn't even really know the answer and then I am forced to pay a tax on something that I don't need to pay taxes on.

For anyone joining this thread:

I am not required to file the profit from the sale of my apt as I meet the primary residence exclusion.

However, PUB 501 states that my gross income shall now include the sale of my home even if that sale is excludable. So I am being forced to file even though I otherwise do not meet the "normal" income threshold as I earned well below $10,300 in 2015. 

How the heck am I supposed to file a 1040 on which I am technically told as of PUB 523 I should not report the sale of my home because I fall below the $250,000 filing threshold but that sale and profit is what is now my reason to file a 1040!!??

It's insane.


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## iota2014

> How the heck am I supposed to file a 1040 on which I am technically told as of PUB 523 I should not report the sale of my home because I fall below the $250,000 filing threshold but that sale and profit is what is now my reason to file a 1040!!?


It's not impossible, it's just pointless. If you decide to file, put zero on the Capital Gains line. And don't forget Schedule B.


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## P123

iota2014 said:


> How the heck am I supposed to file a 1040 on which I am technically told as of PUB 523 I should not report the sale of my home because I fall below the $250,000 filing threshold but that sale and profit is what is now my reason to file a 1040!!?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not impossible, it's just pointless. If you decide to file, put zero on the Capital Gains line.
Click to expand...

Thanknyou Iota, but what do I put down for gross income? The $20,000 profit from the sale? And do I have to pay taxes on that as I am over the $10,300 threshold?


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## iota2014

Philipp123 said:


> Thanknyou Iota, but what do I put down for gross income?


Which line?



> The $20,000 profit from the sale? And do I have to pay taxes on that as I am over the $10,300 threshold?


You don't report the $20,000.


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## P123

Thanks for your patience Iota. I thought that if I need to include the profit as gross income according to Pub 501 then I would have to report the $20,000 as my income for the tax year? (I don't have a 1040 in front me and don't recall the exact set up)


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## iota2014

Philipp123 said:


> Thanks for your patience Iota. I thought that if I need to include the profit as gross income according to Pub 501 then I would have to report the $20,000 as my income for the tax year? (I don't have a 1040 in front me and don't recall the exact set up)


Have a look at the form, when you have the opportunity. It will probably be clearer then. But it will still be pointless. The US tax code is a mess.

In the end it's probably not going to matter whether you file or don't file, because you don't owe any tax. If you do file, the most that might happen is a letter asking a question. If you don't file, nothing at all is likely to happen. You won't have committed an offence, and you won't be liable for any penalties. Don't worry, as Bob Marley used to say.


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## P123

Thanks for your reply. When I have time later in the week and have a 1040 in front of me do you mind if I message you through the forum if I have questions?


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## iota2014

Philipp123 said:


> Thanks for your reply. When I have time later in the week and have a 1040 in front of me do you mind if I message you through the forum if I have questions?


Just ask in this same thread. That way, people who know more than I do might comment. I'm strictly an amateur - it's just that I also had to come to a decision as to whether or not I needed to file. I came to the conclusion that if they couldn't manage to make it clear what they expected me to do, they shouldn't be surprised if I didn't do it.

Then I renounced.


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## P123

Ok. Thanks.Yes, I would renounce if the $2,350 were do-able right now.


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## Bevdeforges

If you want to report the sale of your house, there's a form for that. However, pub 523 says you don't have to report anything if the gain is excludable in full and you didn't get a 1099-S on the sale. It's highly unlikely that you would get any sort of 1099 form if the house you sold is located outside the US.

There is next to no guidance available for those of us living outside the US on exactly how to handle any number of items for US tax purposes. We have to interpret the various instructions as best we can, make a good faith stab at it and then, hope for the best. OTOH, until and unless you're talking 5 or 6 figure tax bills at a minimum, the chances of the IRS taking any sort of interest in your case are probably slim to none.
Cheers,
Bev


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## maz57

Philipp123 said:


> Thanks Maz for your input. Curios though, what do you mean by "they won't, see number 2 above"? And CBT? Thanks and sorry I am not very hip :eyebrows:


What I meant is the IRS won't know about the sale unless you tell them so they won't be asking questions about something they don't know about. It wouldn't be all that hard for them to find out some details if they had a reason to do the research, but unless something triggers their interest it isn't even remotely on their radar. Remember, this is the very same agency that routinely sends hundreds of tax refunds to the same US crack-house address. If they can't figure that one out, it is extremely unlikely they will be tracking your activity in a foreign (to the IRS, anyway) country.

CBT=Citizenship Based Taxation. The US has it and it makes no sense because it is unenforceable and conflicts with every other tax system. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they had Residence based Taxation (RBT) like the rest of the civilized world. No need to be sorry; hang around this forum for awhile and you will soon pick up the lingo!


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## maz57

Nononymous said:


> #NeverFile


You made my day!


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## BBCWatcher

There's no conflict here. You're obliged to file a tax return, and that tax return will contain mostly zeros and blanks _like practically every tax return_. You don't have to put the $20,000 gain from this home sale anywhere on your tax return if you qualify to exclude it. You still fill out lots of other things like your name, address, SSN, filing status, signature, date, Schedule B (foreign account checkbox at least, probably), IRS Form 8938 (if you meet that form's filing threshold), Form 8965 (probably), etc.

Congress -- it is Congress, Bev; they write the tax code -- requires you to make a sworn statement (a tax filing) in your particular situation with, presumably, zero tax owed/due. Welcome to the club. About 94% of Americans living overseas don't owe any tax, and the majority of them are obliged to file U.S. tax returns. Those tax returns are chock full of zeroes and blanks. That, too, is information.


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## Nononymous

Philipp123 said:


> Ok. Thanks.Yes, I would renounce if the $2,350 were do-able right now.


The way I see it is, if you meet the personal criteria for renouncing - you have non-US citizenship and residence, no particular desire to live in the US, no significant financial ties to the US - then you meet the criteria for completely ignoring your filing requirements and the IRS in general.

#NeverFIle

Two caveats: might be worth checking into (a) how likely your bank is to rat you out under FATCA, and (b) how resistant is the government of the country where you live and work and are a citizen to US pressure to assist in collecting money the US thinks you might owe it. (Luckily for us Canadians, the answer to (a) is not very and to (b) is not at all.)


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## iota2014

BBCWatcher said:


> There's no conflict here. You're obliged to file a tax return, and that tax return will contain mostly zeros and blanks _like practically every tax return_. You don't have to put the $20,000 gain from this home sale anywhere on your tax return if you qualify to exclude it.


There is indeed a conflict, arising from the contradictory provisions regarding what is to be included in gross income. One section of the tax code tells you not to include the house sale gain in gross income if certain criteria are met; another section tells you the house sale gain must be included in gross income. The taxpayer can only accommodate both requirements by lying (zero-ing Line 13) and then swearing under penalty of perjury that they've told no lies.

Typical. Absolutely typical.


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## BBCWatcher

iota2014 said:


> There is indeed a conflict, arising from the contradictory provisions regarding what is to be included in gross income.


There is no conflict. The section dealing with filing thresholds defines "gross income" in only one way for its purposes.

Placing zero on Line 13 is not lying if the primary residence's capital gain is fully excludable. It's telling the truth.

The instructions (and underlying tax code) are quite clear in telling you exactly how to do things in this situation, a situation very similar to what happens with the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion that the vast majority of overseas filers use to get to zero (or less) tax owed on non-U.S. source income. They too are still obliged to file tax returns. General Electric is still obliged to file a corporate tax return even though the company routinely pays zero (or less) in U.S. income taxes. It's perfectly common, ordinary, and non-surprising -- and certainly not unique to the United States and its tax code. _Most_ of the time you don't get to say privately "I owe zero tax" without making a filing, under penalty of perjury, swearing to that reality. This approach isn't even unique to tax systems. There are all kinds of sworn declaration requirements for nullities, e.g. the majority of customs declaration forms that people have to fill out.


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## iota2014

BBCWatcher said:


> There is no conflict. The section dealing with filing thresholds defines "gross income" in only one way for its purposes.
> 
> Placing zero on Line 13 is not lying if the primary residence's capital gain is fully excludable. It's telling the truth.


No, it's not telling the truth. The OP didn't have zero CGT, but $20,000 CGT.

The proper way to deal with the situation would be to revise the 1040 and its instructions, offering appropriate fields for the taxpayer to fill in the correct gain, and then tick a box to say if all the criteria are met. If box ticked, tell the taxpayer to carry zero over to the rightmost column for adding up income. If box not ticked, file Schedule D.



> The instructions (and underlying tax code) are quite clear in telling you exactly how to do things in this situation


. No, they are completely unclear.



> ...very similar to what happens with the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion that the vast majority of overseas filers use to get to zero (or less) tax owed on non-U.S. source income. They too are still obliged to file tax returns.


Not the same situation at all. Foreign earners are not told to put zero on line 7.



> _Most_ of the time you don't get to say privately "I owe zero tax" without making a filing, under penalty of perjury, swearing to that reality. This approach isn't even unique to tax systems. There are all kinds of sworn declaration requirements for nullities, e.g. the majority of customs declaration forms that people have to fill out.


You're missing the point, which is that the contradictory provisions regarding whether or not non-taxable CGT is to be included in gross income result in the taxpayer being required to swear to a lie.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, we're back to angels and pinheads again here.

There are plenty of contradictions in the US Tax Code. It's legislated in piecemeal fashion, when they can get Congress to get up off their backsides and do anything at all.

The Regulations are the IRS' (actually the Treasury Department's) attempt to define the processes for carrying out the intent of the tax code. There are also plenty of contradictions within the Regs - though these sometimes get discovered and corrected when someone takes a tax issue to court and a judge finally rules on the issue. 

Net-net, there are sections in the various instructions that say to report a gain on the sale of a primary residence if it meets certain conditions. And there are instructions that specifically say NOT to report anything unless it meets certain conditions. Unless you've got serious problems with the rest of your tax return, not reporting the gain at all is a perfectly reasonable approach.

There is no one, "correct" way to fill out tax returns given all the options and interpretations required. In fact, it could be argued that every tax return reflects somebody's interpretation of the relevant tax law and regulations and precedents. There is always a "risk" in filing, in that you could theoretically be selected for a "compliance audit" - where they rip apart your tax return and ask you to justify everything line on the thing. But that risk is infinitesimally small particularly for those of us living overseas, more so now that the overseas IRS offices have been shut down. And even a regular audit (limited to specific items on your return) doesn't necessarily mean having to pay - if you have a reasonable explanation for how and why you reported the items.
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014

Yes, I agree, there's minimal risk involved. Risk is not the problem. The problem is being expected to lie, and then swear one hasn't lied - purely for the convenience of the IRS. It's repellent. Intolerable. And completely typical.


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## Bevdeforges

iota2014 said:


> Yes, I agree, there's minimal risk involved. Risk is not the problem. The problem is being expected to lie, and then swear one hasn't lied - purely for the convenience of the IRS. It's repellent. Intolerable. And completely typical.


There's no expectation that you'll lie. You take a stance and you file based on your "good faith" interpretation of the instructions you used. If the instructions you relied on just happen to be contradicted by other instructions, that's too bad - but will never even come up unless the IRS selects your return for audit or special treatment. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014

Sorry Bev, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## P123

Dear Bev, Iota, and BBC watcher (and everyone else who chimed in and offered advice). I am going to call the IRS and ask them directly and present both PUB 501 & 523 and see what they say. Living and filing abroad is messy and I'd rather go by the book as I want to sleep at night without the boogie-taxman.

This will be my first year filing myself and I've already done the FBAR.

Because of the sale of my apartment I now meet the threshold for the 8938. 

Can anyone tell me what other forms I need to be aware of other than the 1040 & 8938?

Also, a tip for good software for filing myself would be greatly appreciated!

This is a wonderful community of people and because I have learned so much recently I hope to help other expats in the near future as you've all helped me.

p.s. Our expat deadline is June 15th (does this mean I have until then to e-file?)


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## Bevdeforges

Don't mean to be a killjoy here, but calling the IRS doesn't necessarily give you The Word. The IRS disclaims any advice given out over the phone. The only binding advice they give is a "ruling" (for which you have to pay). It's called a Private Letter Ruling and it is only valid for the taxpayer who has requested it (and paid for it).
https://www.irs.gov/uac/Understanding-IRS-Guidance-A-Brief-Primer
Cheers,
Bev


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## maz57

The couple of times I called the IRS and actually made it through to a human, in the first few seconds of the conversation it was obvious I knew way more about the subject than the person at the other end of the line. There is practically no one taking calls at the IRS who knows anything about overseas filing. Unless its toll-free and you have time to burn, don't bother.

And as Bev says, if you actually do get an answer and it turns out to be wrong, it is your fault, not theirs.


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## BBCWatcher

Guys/gals, there is _nothing_ in conflict here. The tax code and instructions are clear. Philipp meets the filing threshold, ergo he is obliged to file a U.S. tax return. In preparing his tax return he is clearly and carefully instructed to exclude qualified gains from the sale of a primary residence, therefore (if qualified) he is instructed to place zero on Line 13.

There is _nothing_ ambiguous, confusing, or conflicting in these instructions nor in the underlying tax code. This is what the instructions and tax code say. This is the only path they provide in these circumstances. At high school level English.

The U.S. tax code is rarely your personal, desired tax code. "So what?"


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## P123

Hi Guys, all I am looking to do at this point is make the best of a bad situation. I filed the Streamlined Offshore procedure in 2015 because I had no idea about Fbars and 8938s and now with the sale of my apt I just want to be by the book as I don't need any more headaches with the IRS. 

If anyone can recommend good filing software and give me a heads up about other potential expat form requirements (excluding Fbar and 8938) I would really appreciate it. I think everyone who has posted has made a good point but I feel filing (in light of my Streamlined experience) is best for me. I hope you guys will continue to help when I return with more questions ;-)


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## Bevdeforges

Frankly, any of the major tax prep software brands should do the trick for you, as long as they include the forms needed for filing from overseas (2555, 1116, 8938, etc.). TaxAct and H & R Block seem to be the most commonly cited ones lately on the forum.
Cheers,
Bev


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