# So, why is the asset declaration putting people off?



## Sirtravelot

I've read on here that quite a few people are put off from moving to Spain or considering leaving Spain due to this law about declaring world wide assets.

Why is this?

I understand that, to an extent, it is quite ridiculous and not Spain's business what you have, but on the other hand, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?


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## Lynn R

Sirtravelot said:


> I've read on here that quite a few people are put off from moving to Spain or considering leaving Spain due to this law about declaring world wide assets.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> I understand that, to an extent, it is quite ridiculous and not Spain's business what you have, but on the other hand, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?


Well, that's my take on it. I also wish that people would stop talking as though Spain has adopted this measure in isolation, when in fact many other countries also require their residents to make the same type of declaration. In Italy, for example, the amount of assets which must be declared is much lower than the €50,000 limit applicable in Spain.

It IS Spain's business what you have (and any other country which taxes residents on their worldwide income) and sadly no Government can rely on innate honesty when it comes to declaring their income and paying what's due.


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## extranjero

Sirtravelot said:


> I've read on here that quite a few people are put off from moving to Spain or considering leaving Spain due to this law about declaring world wide assets.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> I understand that, to an extent, it is quite ridiculous and not Spain's business what you have, but on the other hand, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?


The threat of draconian penalties even for innocent mistakes( yes, we know no- one has been fined 100 k for misspelling their name)
Having to bare your your financial soul in minute detail
Those who have done so supply the tax office with a handy list for IHT, while those evading, about 95 % apparently, hide their assets, and will no doubt just reveal the assets in Spain, paying far less.
Confusion as to what goes in each category, with " experts" disagreeing


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## Horlics

But why do some stay in countries with similar rules. It's because people make balanced choices about how and where to spend their lives. I'm back from over 5 years in the Middle East. I was taxed nothing and could have bought apartments which I'd be practically 100% sure I could rent out, and if I did, I'd not be taxed on any of that income too. Finally, when selling assets of any kind, I'd pay.... yes, you guessed it, zero tax.

But then I'd have to have continued to make the ME my home, and that is just something I was not prepared to do, at any level of financial benefit.

You'll always find those who want the benefits of a place with none of what they see as the downsides.



Sirtravelot said:


> I've read on here that quite a few people are put off from moving to Spain or considering leaving Spain due to this law about declaring world wide assets.
> 
> Why is this?
> 
> I understand that, to an extent, it is quite ridiculous and not Spain's business what you have, but on the other hand, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear, right?


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## mrypg9

I know of no-one who is leaving because of it. It's scaremongering and every word Lynn says is true.
Why shouldn't you declare all your assets to the tax authorities of where you live? It's what honest people do and tbh I'm sick to the back teeth of the totally unnecessary speculation and rumour surrounding this requirement.
To be clear: you are being asked to reveal NOTHING more than what you should have revealed already. Nothing, nada, rien, nichts, nic.
There are Brits here who obviously have stuff they are hiding...rent from a property in the UK? Offshore assets beyond the reach of HMRC or hacienda?
These aren't really wealthy people. HNWIs have clever tax lawyers to legally minimise their tax bills. A few ten-bob millionaires maybe.
OH and I rang our gestor today to do what we have to by the end of this month as will all the other Brits etc. living here who want to do the right thing.
Time to put the lid on this silly scaremongering!!!


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## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> But why do some stay in countries with similar rules. It's because people make balanced choices about how and where to spend their lives. I'm back from over 5 years in the Middle East. I was taxed nothing and could have bought apartments which I'd be practically 100% sure I could rent out, and if I did, I'd not be taxed on any of that income too. Finally, when selling assets of any kind, I'd pay.... yes, you guessed it, zero tax.
> 
> But then I'd have to have continued to make the ME my home, and that is just something I was not prepared to do, at any level of financial benefit.
> 
> You'll always find those who want the benefits of a place with none of what they see as the downsides.


I want to 'like' this post but the button has disappeared

Eureka!! Found it, button clicked...


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## extranjero

So why are only 5% submitting a declaration?


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I know of no-one who is leaving because of it. It's scaremongering and every word Lynn says is true.
> Why shouldn't you declare all your assets to the tax authorities of where you live? It's what honest people do and tbh I'm sick to the back teeth of the totally unnecessary speculation and rumour surrounding this requirement.
> To be clear: you are being asked to reveal NOTHING more than what you should have revealed already. Nothing, nada, rien, nichts, nic.
> There are Brits here who obviously have stuff they are hiding...rent from a property in the UK? Offshore assets beyond the reach of HMRC or hacienda?
> These aren't really wealthy people. HNWIs have clever tax lawyers to legally minimise their tax bills. A few ten-bob millionaires maybe.
> *OH and I rang our gestor today to do what we have to by the end of this month as will all the other Brits *etc. living here who want to do the right thing.
> Time to put the lid on this silly scaremongering!!!


not just Brits/foreigners of course, anyone resident here including the Spanish nationals

which you & I pretty much everyone else knows is the case, whatever might be touted around in some of the press


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> The threat of draconian penalties even for innocent mistakes( yes, we know no- one has been fined 100 k for misspelling their name)
> Having to bare your your financial soul in minute detail
> Those who have done so supply the tax office with a handy list for IHT, while those evading, about 95 % apparently, hide their assets, and will no doubt just reveal the assets in Spain, paying far less.
> Confusion as to what goes in each category, with " experts" disagreeing


 You 'bare your soul' to HMRC when you are tax resident in the UK, don't you?
Well, maybe not your soul, but your assets - fortunately for HMRC and hacienda,I don't have to bare my assets Just my income.

As for IHT...if Spain introduces a tax and you don't want to pay it...move away. Did you think the tax regime would stay the same for ever when you moved here? 

It is perfectly possible to arrange your affairs totally legally so you are not subject to IHT. We've done so, so are others on this Forum.


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## 90199

extranjero said:


> So why are only 5% submitting a declaration?


The other 95% are skint and don't need to.


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## extranjero

Hepa said:


> The other 95% are skint and don't need to.


I don't believe that, for one minute!


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## xabiaxica

extranjero said:


> I don't believe that, for one minute!


well I don't have to declare - because I have no assets outside Spain

nor in Spain come to think of it

a lot of people DO move here & cut financial ties with their previous country - they sell up, might not have shares/bonds etc 

I know a lot of people in that position


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## extranjero

xabiachica said:


> well I don't have to declare - because I have no assets outside Spain
> 
> nor in Spain come to think of it
> 
> a lot of people DO move here & cut financial ties with their previous country - they sell up, might not have shares/bonds etc
> ,
> I know a lot of people in that position


A lot of people would not want to transfer their savings etc to Spain when they move here, and who could blame them if they fear the possibility of a Cyprus style haircut!
As for skint expats, no way, if you take into account the number of ex military, teachers, civil servants out here,. A lot seem to have more money than they know what to do with.


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## Lynn R

We do seem to get a lot of contradictory statements on these forums, don't we? One minute people have left in multitudes, never mind droves, because they can't afford to live here any more as things have got so expensive (as expensive if not more so than the UK, some would say), and the next, there are loads of people here who have more money than they know what to do with!

I know people who did sell up in the UK and transferred all their funds over here when they moved (and as the exchange rate was at least €1.50, they've been better off these last few years than me, and a lot of others, who saw the exchange rate fall to near parity before recovering some lost ground (but still a long way off €1.50). As Xabiachica says, no need for them to submit a 720 declaration.

If you think about all the statistics that come out showing that an increasing amount of wealth is becoming concentrated in a decreasing number of hands all the time, it's not so surprising that a relatively small number of people would have a need to make this kind of declaration.


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## xabiaxica

extranjero said:


> A lot of people would not want to transfer their savings etc to Spain when they move here, and who could blame them if they fear the possibility of a Cyprus style haircut!
> As for skint expats, no way, if you take into account the number of ex military, teachers, civil servants out here,. A lot seem to have more money than they know what to do with.


what about the many who I know that came here 10/20+ years ago to make a new life for their families

those of us still here with our children mostly have businesses which we run & support our families on the proceeds - we aren't rich by any means and some of us have a 2nd & even 3rd generation of grandchildren etc here

some came & married Spanish nationals - they like as not wouldn't have any assets outside Spain

not everyone comes here to retire, you know!


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## 90199

I won't have to fill another asset declaration form, I have transferred my investments to a Bond, and the property I had overseas, I have disposed of it without financial gain. Plus I have won 75 quid on the premium bonds


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## 90199

extranjero said:


> I don't believe that, for one minute!


Well that is a surprise


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## extranjero

Hepa said:


> Well that is a surprise


My remark applies to your comment about some ex pats being skint!


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## extranjero

Hepa said:


> I won't have to fill another asset declaration form, I have transferred my investments to a Bond, and the property I had overseas, I have disposed of it without financial gain. Plus I have won 75 quid on the premium bonds


Doesn't doing that involve its own expense, commission etc. ? Ok if you have another source of available cash. Tying money up for years when you're old doesn't make sense to me. Better for money to be freely accessible for spending. You know the sayings, " No pockets in shrouds" or "who wants to be the richest corpse in the graveyard?"


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## 90199

extranjero said:


> My remark applies to your comment about some ex pats being skint!


Yes, I am aware of that.


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## Pazcat

I struggle to see what the issue is, Spain has very lenient asset declaration rules compared to most western nations. They are finally catching up with modern society and I guess don't want to be seen as the place that welcomes wealthy(and not so much wealthy) tax dodgers anymore as was the case not so long ago.


I really doubt the concern is fear of the Spanish government dipping their fingers in the kitty although it's a populist tag line, if it really is a concern then I wonder how people sleep at night.
Jeez, Belgium required me to declare all overdrawn accounts and as far as trust issues go I have less than zero trust in that lot yet it wasn't a problem.


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## jimenato

I was talking to two different people only the other day both of whom are worried enough about this to contemplate leaving. 

They declared last year and have both just inherited a fair bit from family in the UK (it seems to be happening a lot to friends at our age). 

If they declare the inheritances as an asset this year Spain will want to know where the increase came from and would then be into them for some very serious IHT (even though IHT will have been paid on the estate in the UK).

Strictly speaking it is the IHT liability which has got them worried but it is the asset declaration which will highlight it to the Spanish authorities.

The vast majority of people would not have declared the inheritance in the past but now they have to.

So they will probably go. I'm not saying what's right or wrong, just saying why some people are worried about the asset declaration and leaving which is what was asked in the OP.


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## Chopera

extranjero said:


> The threat of draconian penalties even for innocent mistakes( yes, we know no- one has been fined 100 k for misspelling their name)
> Having to bare your your financial soul in minute detail
> Those who have done so supply the tax office with a handy list for IHT, while those evading, about 95 % apparently, hide their assets, and will no doubt just reveal the assets in Spain, paying far less.
> Confusion as to what goes in each category, with " experts" disagreeing


I think this is a big part of it. Retired people with assets in UK pension funds, property, etc have the option of staying in Spain, making the declaration, maintaining the declaration, and still risk getting ruined for an innocent mistake, or they can spend less than 6 months in Spain and forget all about it. 

This and tax evasion of course.


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## maxd

The words that everyone dreads " I am from the government and I am here to help".

No one trusts them, that is why people are not happy.


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## gus-lopez

The main reason would be in the event of a 'mistake' the likelihood is that it would be shown the same amount of interest in being dealt with/rectifying/correcting as has been shown with so called "illegal" builds.
& ,just like the laws regarding building/segregating/etc; all the so called professionals have 30 different ideas of what the laws actually are. 
When there is a problem the usual people will be hung out to dry. The innocents who foolishly thought that the law & common-sense would prevail.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> The words that everyone dreads " I am from the government and I am here to help".


Yes, I'm sure the shareholders of the major banks felt like that when the UK Government came along to bail them out with a sack of taxpayers' cash.

That tired old Ronald Reagan cliche is long past its sell- by date...


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## davexf

Hi

Unless I´ve missed a change, the UK don´t tax your worldwide wealth; but the fear is that Spain will tax in the future, things they don´t tax now. If you have a bolt hole elsewhere in the world, the UK ignores it; Spain now wants to know about it. Wise money says once they know, in the future they will want to tax it. 

If, like me, you are a pauper on paper, then you have nothing to fear. However, if you are asset rich, then there is a fear, possibly sufficient to make you change your country of residence

Davexf


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## Lynn R

davexf said:


> Hi
> 
> Unless I´ve missed a change, the UK don´t tax your worldwide wealth; but the fear is that Spain will tax in the future, things they don´t tax now. If you have a bolt hole elsewhere in the world, the UK ignores it; Spain now wants to know about it. Wise money says once they know, in the future they will want to tax it.
> 
> If, like me, you are a pauper on paper, then you have nothing to fear. However, if you are asset rich, then there is a fear, possibly sufficient to make you change your country of residence
> 
> Davexf


Makes you wonder why anybody stays in the USA, doesn't it? Their FATCA requirements make Spain's 720 pale into insignificance.

How can Spain tax things in the future which they don't tax now, when tax is already due (and has been all along) on all the stuff you're required to include in a 720 declaration)?

I get the point Jimenato was making about people who receive inheritances from the UK - but the operative words are "The vast majority of people would not have declared the inheritance in the past but now they have to".


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## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I'm sure the shareholders of the major banks felt like that when the UK Government came along to bail them out with a sack of taxpayers' cash.
> 
> That tired old Ronald Reagan cliche is long past its sell- by date...


I don't agree with Reagan, but in the case of the banks I better analogy would be the lack of government regulation that caused the problem in the first place. When the banks were nationalised the share price got wiped out anyway.


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## Turtles

I'm annoyed about it because of the *vast *amount of detail that is required on the form. Contrary to what some people said above, this is in addition to existing requirements. Collecting and maintaining and checking it all has taken me considerable amounts of time this year and last. None of this affected my tax liability or earned the Spanish government a single euro.


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## colrose777

davexf said:


> Hi
> 
> Unless I´ve missed a change, the UK don´t tax your worldwide wealth; but the fear is that Spain will tax in the future, things they don´t tax now. If you have a bolt hole elsewhere in the world, the UK ignores it; Spain now wants to know about it. Wise money says once they know, in the future they will want to tax it.
> 
> If, like me, you are a pauper on paper, then you have nothing to fear. However, if you are asset rich, then there is a fear, possibly sufficient to make you change your country of residence
> 
> Davexf


This has certainly been sufficiently off-putting to make me alter my long-term plan.
The potential unfairness in this, as I see it, is that there are plenty of ex-government employees, teachers, policemen, firemen, civil servants etc., some of whom will be reading this, who never even think about the capital value of their pensions, which would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to provide in the private sector.
However as a self-employed person, if I have chosen to put my "pension savings" into property which I now rent out to provide my pension income the Spanish government may decide to target this at some future date when they have messed up the economy yet again.
If your well protected, index-linked pensions were as vulnerable as my assets which are there to do the same job there would be people leaving in droves.


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## maxd

Turtles said:


> or earned the Spanish government a single euro.


Not yet but now you they know what you have and what you own it will be open season.


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## Alcalaina

colrose777 said:


> This has certainly been sufficiently off-putting to make me alter my long-term plan.
> The potential unfairness in this, as I see it, is that there are plenty of ex-government employees, teachers, policemen, firemen, civil servants etc., some of whom will be reading this, who never even think about the capital value of their pensions, which would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to provide in the private sector.
> However as a self-employed person, if I have chosen to put my "pension savings" into property which I now rent out to provide my pension income the Spanish government may decide to target this at some future date when they have messed up the economy yet again.
> If your well protected, index-linked pensions were as vulnerable as my assets which are there to do the same job there would be people leaving in droves.


But it's only the_ income_ from your property that is taxable - just as people on government pensions pay tax on theirs.

There's no way on earth Spain or any other EU country is going to slap a tax on overseas property, beyond than the existing capital gains and inheritance taxes. It's almost certainly against the rules of the double taxation agreement and anyway would impossible to administer.


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## Chopera

In fact Spain does also have an imputed tax on unrented overseas property as well. It's just that most people have never heard of it, and even fewer pay it. Spain also has a wealth tax, and property is included in the calculation as to whether you should pay it (state pensions aren't). I think any assets above €700k have the wealth tax applied to them.


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## Lynn R

Turtles said:


> I'm annoyed about it because of the *vast *amount of detail that is required on the form. Contrary to what some people said above, this is in addition to existing requirements. Collecting and maintaining and checking it all has taken me considerable amounts of time this year and last. None of this affected my tax liability or earned the Spanish government a single euro.


I think you've misinterpreted what's been said - yes, the reporting requirements are in addition to anything that previously existed. But they have not given rise to any additional tax liabilities which did not exist before the Modelo 720 came into being.

It's just a way for Hacienda to be able to cross check that income from whatever overseas assets residents may have is being declared on their annual tax returns. The automatic exchange of information between Governments which is supposed to start in 2015 will be another one - and the UK was a front runner in supporting and signing up to that.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Not yet but now you they know what you have and what you own it will be open season.


Just as in the UK and other modern, efficiently run countries with good infrastructure and public services.


Consider the situation in the Czech Republic where you live. Poor economic management and gross inefficiency in management of tax collection, not to mention corruption which is just as endemic there as in Spain. Result: a run-down, almost third-world country which in spite of having almost forty years of supposedly democratic government cannot provide decent public services and where even in the capital city you wade through mud to get to the opera house!!

A bit more 'open season' might be a good thing. Spain is trying to shake off its reputation as a haven for those with the desire to live off others by avoiding paying their dues. About time the Czech Republic and similar countries made that effort.

And one more point, often overlooked: the 'free market' governments you support were the most interventionist in modern economic history. Government intervention slashed regulation. Government intervention sold off public assets. Government intervention brought in new regulations to interfere with the workings of civil associations.
And government intervention curbed civil liberties, put pressure on the press, pressurised journalists trying to do their job of exposing government inefficiency and amongst other things greased palms to secure that lucrative Al-Yamani arms contract with the Saudis.
The whole free market fiasco was a child of government intervention.
Read some economic history. It's interesting and very revealing.


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## mrypg9

colrose777 said:


> This has certainly been sufficiently off-putting to make me alter my long-term plan.
> The potential unfairness in this, as I see it, is that there are plenty of ex-government employees, teachers, policemen, firemen, civil servants etc., some of whom will be reading this, who never even think about the capital value of their pensions, which would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to provide in the private sector.
> However as a self-employed person, if I have chosen to put my "pension savings" into property which I now rent out to provide my pension income the Spanish government may decide to target this at some future date when they have messed up the economy yet again.
> If your well protected, index-linked pensions were as vulnerable as my assets which are there to do the same job there would be people leaving in droves.


We've done this government pension thing to death. Those pensions aren't free, they are contributory and taxable. Yes, they are Ponzi schemes but so is the SRP. Private pension schemes invested in the markets are exposed to risk and fluctuation and unless your pension pot is significant holders of these pension funds may find they have an income so low that they rely on state support in the form of Pension Credit.
We have investments from the sale of business premises and plant in the UK. We are taxed on these stock market investments just as tax is liable on rent income from property whether in Spain or the UK.
We also owned property in Canada from which we gained rental income. Tax due was paid on that and why not?
Is it only we Brits who whinge constantly about paying our dues, I wonder??


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Spain is trying to shake off its reputation as a haven for those with the desire to live off others by avoiding paying their dues.


Wasting there time then when the vast majority of those in government jobs, political office ,etc; are doing that for a living.

No, they are just trying to come up with ways to pay off the money borrowed to pay the unemployment & redundancies. I doubt that they even consider their reputation just wishing to get back to the old days of not doing a lot & having to worry about anything. 
The vast majority of those in government wouldn't even consider that an extranjero even counted & after they've fleeced/taxed/robbed them they wouldn't even give a toss.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Wasting there time then when the vast majority of those in government jobs, political office ,etc; are doing that for a living.
> 
> No, they are just trying to come up with ways to pay off the money borrowed to pay the unemployment & redundancies. I doubt that they even consider their reputation just wishing to get back to the old days of not doing a lot & having to worry about anything.
> The vast majority of those in government wouldn't even consider that an extranjero even counted & after they've fleeced/taxed/robbed them they wouldn't even give a toss.


'Fleeced' 'robbed' ?? How, gus??
Taxed, yes, just as are Spaniards.


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## Maureen47

Surely if you are planning a move to another country , you do the sums , work out what taxes you will have to pay , how much it will cost to you to live there , decide if its affordable against the benefits of living there and make your decision.

My view is , its your choice where you want to live and you have to abide by the rules of that country whether you like them or not.

I get the feeling some folks think it is ok not to pay their way wherever they live.


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## mrypg9

maureen47 said:


> Surely if you are planning a move to another country , you do the sums , work out what taxes you will have to pay , how much it will cost to you to live there , decide if its affordable against the benefits of living there and make your decision.
> 
> My view is , its your choice where you want to live and you have to abide by the rules of that country whether you like them or not.
> 
> I get the feeling some folks think it is ok not to pay their way wherever they live.


Very well said.

A lot of people obviously didn't do their sums, thought Spain was affordable for them then found it wasn't...

They could always relocate to places like the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania etc. where they can live like lords on very little.

There are drawbacks to this course of action, though.....


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## Lynn R

maureen47 said:


> Surely if you are planning a move to another country , you do the sums , work out what taxes you will have to pay , how much it will cost to you to live there , decide if its affordable against the benefits of living there and make your decision.
> 
> My view is , its your choice where you want to live and you have to abide by the rules of that country whether you like them or not.
> 
> I get the feeling some folks think it is ok not to pay their way wherever they live.


Very well summed up, Maureen.

I often hear people (and it does tend to be those who are self-employed) saying things like "I've paid enough tax already therefore it's OK for me to not declare some part or other of my income". I wonder how they'd feel if they, or their company, invoiced a customer for goods or services supplied and the customer's response was "oh no, that's too much, I'll pay 70% but no more", or "I've paid my bills from January to October that that's quite sufficient so you can supply me for the remaining quarter free of charge". 

Those of us who were employed had to cough up all our PAYE, of course, without the ability to be imaginative about setting all kinds of things against our income to reduce our tax liability - and I had a job for some years in an accountancy firm, so I am well acquainted with their ability to be creative with such things.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Very well summed up, Maureen.
> 
> I often hear people (and it does tend to be those who are self-employed) saying things like "I've paid enough tax already therefore it's OK for me to not declare some part or other of my income". I wonder how they'd feel if they, or their company, invoiced a customer for goods or services supplied and the customer's response was "oh no, that's too much, I'll pay 70% but no more", or "I've paid my bills from January to October that that's quite sufficient so you can supply me for the remaining quarter free of charge".
> 
> Those of us who were employed had to cough up all our PAYE, of course, without the ability to be imaginative about setting all kinds of things against our income to reduce our tax liability - and I had a job for some years in an accountancy firm, so I am well acquainted with their ability to be creative with such things.


Well said you too.

In all the years she owned and ran her company, Sandra was assiduous in paying every last penny of tax due, whether personal, CGT, VAT or any tax she was required by law to pay. The company turnover was high and business sometimes good so tax due was often high too.
Any customer who, when presented with a bill asked if there were a discount for cash was politely told there was not.
Being in business we came across many people who seemed to think they had some special status as employers not employees that absolved them from paying tax like everyone else and who as you say often arranged things to minimise the tax they should have paid, unlike the poor sods who worked for them.


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## xabiaxica

someone I know asked me why I don't keep the teenagers I tutor going during the summer - this person tutors English to Spanish kids & they mostly do an hour a week except when this person is away for a holiday

I do the teens as an 'extra' - they make up maybe 10% of my work - & most of the adults to whom I teach Spanish, are either away for a huge chunk of the summer, or have guests & don't want classes every week. So I generally 'baja' for at least a couple of months every summer, & often in December, too - hopefully it will only be for August this year :fingerscrossed:

I had to explain that to just keep the teens going wouldn't pay my autónomo - this person apparently 'doesn't have to worry about that' 

& it's not because they charge more than me, nor that they don't need to work........ & some of these students have been with them for 10 years.... 

I really do wonder why I bother being legal, sometimes


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## 90199

extranjero said:


> Doesn't doing that involve its own expense, commission etc. ? Ok if you have another source of available cash. Tying money up for years when you're old doesn't make sense to me. Better for money to be freely accessible for spending. You know the sayings, " No pockets in shrouds" or "who wants to be the richest corpse in the graveyard?"



Fees: none paid, availability: readily available, and when I die no CGT payable by Bosslady or vice versa.

I have for many years taken financial advice, it has in the vast majority the investments been very lucrative and well worth the commission paid on the profits.


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## colrose777

mrypg9 said:


> Well said you too.
> 
> In all the years she owned and ran her company, Sandra was assiduous in paying every last penny of tax due, whether personal, CGT, VAT or any tax she was required by law to pay. The company turnover was high and business sometimes good so tax due was often high too.
> Any customer who, when presented with a bill asked if there were a discount for cash was politely told there was not.
> Being in business we came across many people who seemed to think they had some special status as employers not employees that absolved them from paying tax like everyone else and who as you say often arranged things to minimise the tax they should have paid, unlike the poor sods who worked for them.


That's fine for fat cat employers with high turnovers, but some of the poor sods out there are one man bands working twelve hours a day to create a better life for ourselves and our loved ones, and yes we also pay all our taxes, be it on our earnings or investments such as income from a property, however this does not mean that we want to expose ourselves to any greater risk than necessary.
Increasingly, so the government tells us, people are having to become self-employed just to earn a living, but that does not mean that we are all cooking the books or that we want to avoid our liabilities, which, clearly you think is the case.


----------



## mrypg9

colrose777 said:


> That's fine for fat cat employers with high turnovers, but some of the poor sods out there are one man bands working twelve hours a day to create a better life for ourselves and our loved ones, and yes we also pay all our taxes, be it on our earnings or investments such as income from a property, however this does not mean that we want to expose ourselves to any greater risk than necessary.
> Increasingly, so the government tells us, people are having to become self-employed just to earn a living, but that does not mean that we are all cooking the books or that we want to avoid our liabilities, which, clearly you think is the case.


No, I don't think every businessperson does. But there are many who do as you must know.

Why should everybody with tuppence more than others get labelled a 'fat cat'? Many such business are scarcely getting by these days. My OH worked seven days a week every week of the year for a very long time and not from nine to five either, twelve hour days were the norm.
The point remains though that if a government asks for a tax you pay. Wage earners have no choice. It's taken from them.


----------



## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> 'Fleeced' 'robbed' ?? How, gus??
> Taxed, yes, just as are Spaniards.


Taxed , no problems, fleeced & robbed ,You only have to look at the 'illegal' homes fiasco & the complete lack of interest from on high to actually do anything about it. 
All just hoping that it will disappear. 
Then it is compounded by the Andalucian minister for public works, Josefina Cruz , scurrilous ,racist & totally ignorant ( " who have settled here illegally in our territory " ) remarks even though the court found they weren't racist . No they weren't ; she's just a pig-ignorant politician that is as thick as **** & it would appear has no idea that they are even in the EU.

‘NOT OF THIS COUNTRY’ | the courier newspaper

Yes , fleeced & robbed & with no support or the werewithall to do anything about it as they are " only foreigners" & completely disregarding the fact that many of her own countrymen are affected . 
So as night follows day it would seem obvious that in the echelons of the Hacienda there are people with the same attitude & you aren't going to get any assistance from them when it goes wrong & it isn't your fault.


----------



## Lynn R

colrose777 said:


> some of the poor sods out there are one man bands working twelve hours a day to create a better life for ourselves and our loved ones,


Which is exactly why everybody goes to work, whether they're self-employed, employed in the private or the public sector. 

I know it doesn't chime with the populist view, but I worked 12 hours a day, and at weekends, many a time in the public sector. When you're employed over a certain grade, your "contracted hours" of 37 hours a week, or whatever the piece of paper says, go out of the window and it's a question of "you are required to work whatever hours are necessary for the delivery of the service".


----------



## colrose777

Lynn R said:


> Which is exactly why everybody goes to work, whether they're self-employed, employed in the private or the public sector.
> 
> I know it doesn't chime with the populist view, but I worked 12 hours a day, and at weekends, many a time in the public sector. When you're employed over a certain grade, your "contracted hours" of 37 hours a week, or whatever the piece of paper says, go out of the window and it's a question of "you are required to work whatever hours are necessary for the delivery of the service".


Sorry Lynn but I do some work with local authorities and I can assure you that, however dedicated you may have been, the people I have contact with lead the life of Riley compared to the self-employed and private sector workers that I know, with their "sickies", bank holidays, flexi-time, and days in lieu if they have to do a little bit extra. 
Every time I try to make contact with those I am dealing with there always seems to be another reason why they are not working today!.
I did work in the civil service before becoming self-employed so have experienced both sides of the situation, I love working for me, but it is most definitely the harder option.


----------



## Maureen47

The public sector always get hammered for having an easy time as folks seem to think the word public gives them that right. And of course it tax payers money that pays the wages. I have worked in the public sector most of my life with a short time in the private sector. There are individuals good and bad in all sectors fortunately these are usually the minority but like bad news you always hear about them.

Working for the public sector is a choice I made I stuck with it and will have a good pension from it which I have paid for over the last 30 yrs , extra money and time in lieu werent something I experienced but then its hard to walk away in a resuss room in A/E , the last thing you think about then is whether you will get time in lieu or overtime , most public sectors organisations I know are run on a lot of goodwill from the staff often resulting in them then struggling to the their job and ending up sick.

I will be glad to get to Spain and enjoy my early retirement having known I have provided as good a public service as I possibly could for almost 30 years ,at times with little thanks from the public I served but with wonderful memories of all the great people,patients and families I worked with sometimes at the worst times of their lives.


----------



## Alcalaina

maureen47 said:


> Surely if you are planning a move to another country , you do the sums , work out what taxes you will have to pay , how much it will cost to you to live there , decide if its affordable against the benefits of living there and make your decision.
> 
> My view is , its your choice where you want to live and you have to abide by the rules of that country whether you like them or not.
> 
> I get the feeling some folks think it is ok not to pay their way wherever they live.


Absolutely Maureen! And to all those people who are put off buying a place to live in Spain because they might have to pay IHT or CGT on it one day, could I just remind them that the actual cost of the house will probably be less than a third of what they would pay in England. How can they not be better off?


----------



## Madliz

Lynn R said:


> Which is exactly why everybody goes to work, whether they're self-employed, employed in the private or the public sector.
> 
> I know it doesn't chime with the populist view, but I worked 12 hours a day, and at weekends, many a time in the public sector. When you're employed over a certain grade, your "contracted hours" of 37 hours a week, or whatever the piece of paper says, go out of the window and it's a question of "you are required to work whatever hours are necessary for the delivery of the service".


My first management contract in a hotel in central London, many moons ago, stated, "Hours as required to ensure the smooth running of your department." Hotels never close and are frequently busy. There was no end to the hours sometimes, but that's what I signed up for! It does bug me when people moan and groan about their conditions when they are presumably in a job of their choosing, especially these days when many people are unemployed.


----------



## xabiaxica

Madliz said:


> My first management contract in a hotel in central London, many moons ago, stated, "Hours as required to ensure the smooth running of your department." Hotels never close and are frequently busy. There was no end to the hours sometimes, but that's what I signed up for! It does bug me when people moan and groan about their conditions when they are presumably in a job of their choosing, especially these days when many people are unemployed.


sounds exactly like the contracts I had when I was a restaurant & hotel manager

the KP usually took home a lot more an hour than I did


----------



## extranjero

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely Maureen! And to all those people who are put off buying a place to live in Spain because they might have to pay IHT or CGT on it one day, could I just remind them that the actual cost of the house will probably be less than a third of what they would pay in England. How can they not be better off?


If they have sold a modest house to live in Spain, then the cost of the Spanish house plus transfer tax , complementary tax etc, will probably not leave them better off.if they sold a house in mLondon or the Home Counties however, they probably will be.
The IHT is a huge factor, probably the most important thing that puts people of buying here, especially when regional allowances have been abolished.
It's not always possible to have your finances restructured to avoid this.


----------



## maxd

A guy I buy some stuff from says it is the third rule. 1/3rd for the Services, 1/3 for the Politicians and 1/3rd for the Politicians families  He also calls his homeland a banana republic  As I am not resident I do not need to deal with this current forum topic but in general I know the score. 

Tons of people pay cash, 30% of the economy is not through the books.


----------



## promethian

maxd said:


> A guy I buy some stuff from says it is the third rule. 1/3rd for the Services, 1/3 for the Politicians and 1/3rd for the Politicians families  He also calls his homeland a banana republic  As I am not resident I do not need to deal with this current forum topic but in general I know the score.
> 
> Tons of people pay cash, 30% of the economy is not through the books.


Glad someone else on here see's Spain for how it really is.

Some people are so cut off in their ideal little Spanish village somewhere, that they are totally unaware of what goes on around them... but they will find out when Spain has to pay its due's, and it will be too late for them to complain.

I'm not buying anymore and its not due to the disclosure mainly, more than the draconian penalties it could impose for getting it wrong.

The game changed after 2008, there's no way I would buy a nice place for 250K, then have no way to sell it again if my circumstances changed.

All you need to do is step back and look at the Spanish fiscal figures. The Euro millstone around its neck, the poor state of the economic outlook and the Disaster of a housing market ..... Its a just a no no.

I saw a post on this thread earlier about not staying 6 months is basically Tax Evasion.... What????

The rules are laid down, if that's your lifestyle choice, its a choice not tax evasion get real!

I suppose living in Belize and using their system which encourages pensioners to retire Tax free is tax evasion too?.. No its a lifestyle choice.

Should You Buy a Property in Spain?

Until Spain cleans its act up and addresses its Financial mess I will visit a lot but definitely not become a resident and buy.


----------



## Maureen47

promethian said:


> Glad someone else on here see's Spain for how it really is.
> 
> Some people are so cut off in their ideal little Spanish village somewhere, that they are totally unaware of what goes on around them... but they will find out when Spain has to pay its due's, and it will be too late for them to complain.
> 
> I'm not buying anymore and its not due to the disclosure mainly, more than the draconian penalties it could impose for getting it wrong.
> 
> The game changed after 2008, there's no way I would buy a nice place for 250K, then have no way to sell it again if my circumstances changed.
> 
> All you need to do is step back and look at the Spanish fiscal figures. The Euro millstone around its neck, the poor state of the economic outlook and the Disaster of a housing market ..... Its a just a no no.
> 
> I saw a post on this thread earlier about not staying 6 months is basically Tax Evasion.... What????
> 
> The rules are laid down, if that's your lifestyle choice, its a choice not tax evasion get real!
> 
> I suppose living in Belize and using their system which encourages pensioners to retire Tax free is tax evasion too?.. No its a lifestyle choice.
> 
> Should You Buy a Property in Spain?
> 
> Until Spain cleans its act up and addresses its Financial mess I will visit a lot but definitely not become a resident and buy.


I guess its just down to personal circumstances whether its the right time for buying in Spain , the article you included the link to summed it up

''So, instead of remortgaging your British home, saddling yourself with mortgage payments and buying something you may never be able to sell should the need arise, rent out your British home, enjoy profit rent, and use the profit to fund your lifestyle in Spain!

Just don’t expect to be able to earn an income from the Spanish economy. You will need to be retired or have some form of alternative income to afford the dream ''


I agree I would not remortgage to go to Spain currently unless I was willing to take the risk, if you dont need to sell in the near future then thats ok , and as long as you are not relying on Spain for income then it can still be the dream you want it to be, a move abroad requires planning , planning and more planning , it can still go wrong but at least you can mitigate the risk and know what you are taking on


----------



## promethian

I would just like to add that I in no way condone people who live in Spain illegally... Just follow the rules.

I will long term rent in Spain and Portugal as I see fit but still remain a UK resident following EU rules and regs.


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## mrypg9

promethian said:


> Glad someone else on here see's Spain for how it really is.
> 
> Some people are so cut off in their ideal little Spanish village somewhere, that they are totally unaware of what goes on around them... but they will find out when Spain has to pay its due's, and it will be too late for them to complain.
> 
> .


maxd lives in Prague, not Spain. The Czech Republic is possibly a worse case for corruption than Spain.
He also has given a 'friend of a friend told me' anecdote.
Neither of you lives in Spain to give such opinions as gospel. Some posters on this Forum live in little villages, others in towns and cities, some work for others, some self-employed, some retired...but all very aware of 'what goes on around them' as most of us are Spanish-speaking,well-integrated into our communities whether large or small and are well acquainted with Spain's financial situation.
We have no fears for our futures and are as happy and contented with our lives here as no doubt are you in Kings Lynn.
Incidentally, when interest rates increase again in the UK as they will, a lot of people will find it very hard to cope with the huge amount of personal debt. I wouldn't be too complacent about the UK economy.


----------



## mrypg9

maureen47 said:


> I guess its just down to personal circumstances whether its the right time for buying in Spain , the article you included the link to summed it up
> 
> *''So, instead of remortgaging your British home, saddling yourself with mortgage payments and buying something you may never be able to sell should the need arise, rent out your British home, enjoy profit rent, and use the profit to fund your lifestyle in Spain!*
> 
> Just don’t expect to be able to earn an income from the Spanish economy. You will need to be retired or have some form of alternative income to afford the dream ''
> 
> 
> I agree I would not remortgage to go to Spain currently unless I was willing to take the risk, if you dont need to sell in the near future then thats ok , and as long as you are not relying on Spain for income then it can still be the dream you want it to be, a move abroad requires planning , planning and more planning , it can still go wrong but at least you can mitigate the risk and know what you are taking on[/QUOTE
> 
> Re highlighted part: perhaps the writer should have added 'and don't whinge when either HMRC or hacienda catches up with you and demands tax on that rental profit'.
> 
> Unless you own a very valuable property in the UK, rental income from it will not be sufficient to fund a comfortable lifestyle in Spain, not when you have taken into account taxes, management fees, repairs and of course those pesky mortgage payments, probably about to skyrocket when the inevitable occurs and interest rates rise.
> We rented out a property for six months when we left the UK but sold it as the effort wasn't really worth the income.
> Of course it is possible to earn income from the Spanish economy...how odd to say one couldn't as millions of Spaniards do as well as very many posters on this Forum.


----------



## promethian

mrypg9 said:


> maxd lives in Prague, not Spain. The Czech Republic is possibly a worse case for corruption than Spain.
> He also has given a 'friend of a friend told me' anecdote.
> Neither of you lives in Spain to give such opinions as gospel. Some posters on this Forum live in little villages, others in towns and cities, some work for others, some self-employed, some retired...but all very aware of 'what goes on around them' as most of us are Spanish-speaking,well-integrated into our communities whether large or small and are well acquainted with Spain's financial situation.
> We have no fears for our futures and are as happy and contented with our lives here as no doubt are you in Kings Lynn.
> Incidentally, when interest rates increase again in the UK as they will, a lot of people will find it very hard to cope with the huge amount of personal debt. I wouldn't be too complacent about the UK economy.


I am posting my opinion..... 

This thread is about Why asset declaration putting people off?
I am someone who is put off.... you are not so aren't really able to comment from my perspective and arnt in a position to be able to be put off.

/SNIP/


----------



## mrypg9

Madliz said:


> My first management contract in a hotel in central London, many moons ago, stated, "Hours as required to ensure the smooth running of your department." Hotels never close and are frequently busy. There was no end to the hours sometimes, but that's what I signed up for! It does bug me when people moan and groan about their conditions when they are presumably in a job of their choosing, especially these days when many people are unemployed.


Yes, but aren't we pleased that some people choose to do the job Maureen did?
I daresay she could have found better paid employment with less hours and stress but many people will be thankful she didn't.
Some may indeed be alive, living in Spain even, because of her and people like her


----------



## xabiaxica

let's keep the personal comments off this thread shall we?

I really don't want to have to close two threads in two days


----------



## Alcalaina

extranjero said:


> If they have sold a modest house to live in Spain, then the cost of the Spanish house plus transfer tax , complementary tax etc, will probably not leave them better off.if they sold a house in mLondon or the Home Counties however, they probably will be.
> The IHT is a huge factor, probably the most important thing that puts people of buying here, especially when regional allowances have been abolished.
> It's not always possible to have your finances restructured to avoid this.


OK, let's get this into perspective; excuse me while I get the calculator out.

A couple retire at 65, sell their modest terrace house oop north for £160k (€200k) and buy a detached villa with a pool in Andalucia for €200k inc taxes - perfectly feasible. No CGT due, because it's their primary residence.

Average council tax + water rates UK: £2400 pa. Average in Spain: €500 (£400). Saving over 15 years: approx £30k.

They are modest drinkers and buy a 12-pack of beer and 4 bottles of Rioja each week - total €12 in Mercadona. Equivalent price in the UK: £25? £30? A saving of at least £780 p.a. or £11,700 over 15 years.

_*So they are already £40k better off, thanks to the lower taxes in Spain.*_

After 15 years one dies, the other carries on living in the property. IHT due: 0.01%, about €200.

Eventually the other one dies, leaving property to their two non-resident children. IHT due: who knows, maybe 5% if they don't sell for 10 years. So they have acquired a nice holiday home for 5 grand each. 

If they decide to sell it and have to pay tax at a higher rate, it certainly wouldn't be anything like as much as our hypothetical couple have already benefited by.


----------



## Lynn R

colrose777 said:


> Sorry Lynn but I do some work with local authorities and I can assure you that, however dedicated you may have been, the people I have contact with lead the life of Riley compared to the self-employed and private sector workers that I know, with their "sickies", bank holidays, flexi-time, and days in lieu if they have to do a little bit extra.
> Every time I try to make contact with those I am dealing with there always seems to be another reason why they are not working today!.
> I did work in the civil service before becoming self-employed so have experienced both sides of the situation, I love working for me, but it is most definitely the harder option.


We shall have to either politely agree to differ, or I should really say, accept that there are those who work hard and pay all their dues in both sectors (and those who don't), rather than dealing in stereotypes.

I've had two jobs in the private sector and never worked as hard in any of them as I did in the jobs I had for the trade union and in the civil service - in fact I left one of the private sector jobs after less than a year as I was bored witless with having nothing to do.


----------



## 90199

Just a thought, I wonder how many didn't know about the asset declaration farce, we only found out at the last minute, and quite a few Gestors, when we questioned them, looked at us like frightened rabbits.

In the end we found a fellow that seemed to know what he was doing, especially when it came to charging.

Glad to say we won't have to do another.

I have also been told that the office that collates the information and acts upon it, has been completely overwhelmed with the returns and that they are so understaffed that they will not in the foreseeable future be able to instigate any proactive initiatives or investigations.


----------



## Aron

Hepa said:


> Just a thought, I wonder how many didn't know about the asset declaration farce, we only found out at the last minute, and quite a few Gestors, when we questioned them, looked at us like frightened rabbits.
> 
> In the end we found a fellow that seemed to know what he was doing, especially when it came to charging.
> 
> Glad to say we won't have to do another.
> 
> I have also been told that the office that collates the information and acts upon it, has been completely overwhelmed with the returns and that they are so understaffed that they will not in the foreseeable future be able to instigate any proactive initiatives or investigations.


Hmmm, my accountant has informed me differently. The Hacienda are now working on the results of the 720 forms. The tax office set up a data base, but all the input was done by our gestors or accountants. Whether they are understaffed is another matter, but I see no reason to worry if you pay your taxes. You just had to read certain British newspapers that reported expats were in a panic, but there was no panic and even now there us little worry about if you pay your due taxes, as most expats do.


----------



## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> maxd lives in Prague, not Spain. The Czech Republic is possibly a worse case for corruption than Spain.
> He also has given a 'friend of a friend told me' anecdote.
> Neither of you lives in Spain to give such opinions as gospel. Some posters on this Forum live in little villages, others in towns and cities, some work for others, some self-employed, some retired...but all very aware of 'what goes on around them' as most of us are Spanish-speaking,well-integrated into our communities whether large or small and are well acquainted with Spain's financial situation.
> We have no fears for our futures and are as happy and contented with our lives here as no doubt are you in Kings Lynn.
> Incidentally, when interest rates increase again in the UK as they will, a lot of people will find it very hard to cope with the huge amount of personal debt. I wouldn't be too complacent about the UK economy.



Some corrections there. I am a Czech resident but I own a house in Spain and have spend 3 months in Spain this year so far. I also have had business interests in Barcelona and Madrid since 2003. /SNIP/


----------



## Lynn R

It does puzzle me that some people still appear to think that Spain is teetering on the brink of financial collapse which could put their assets at risk - it seems to me they are the ones who don't really have an understanding of what is going on.

If that were so, would Spain (as was announced last night) have just made the first repayment of €1,300M of the ECB loan to rescue the Spanish banks? 

Espa?a inicia por sorpresa la devoluci?n del rescate de la banca | Econom?a | EL MUNDO


----------



## extranjero

Alcalaina said:


> OK, let's get this into perspective; excuse me while I get the calculator out.
> 
> A couple retire at 65, sell their modest terrace house oop north for £160k (€200k) and buy a detached villa with a pool in Andalucia for €200k inc taxes - perfectly feasible. No CGT due, because it's their primary residence.
> 
> Average council tax + water rates UK: £2400 pa. Average in Spain: €500 (£400). Saving over 15 years: approx £30k.
> 
> They are modest drinkers and buy a 12-pack of beer and 4 bottles of Rioja each week - total €12 in Mercadona. Equivalent price in the UK: £25? £30? A saving of at least £780 p.a. or £11,700 over 15 years.
> 
> _*So they are already £40k better off, thanks to the lower taxes in Spain.*_
> 
> After 15 years one dies, the other carries on living in the property. IHT due: 0.01%, about €200.
> 
> Eventually the other one dies, leaving property to their two non-resident children. IHT due: who knows, maybe 5% if they don't sell for 10 years. So they have acquired a nice holiday home for 5
> If they decide to sell it and have to pay tax at a higher rate, it certainly wouldn't be anything like as much as our hypothetical couple have already benefited by.


How do you make the IHT only 200? There will probably be other assets to be taxed on, and bank accounts in the UK, and they may live in a region where there are no regional allowances.
The survivor is unlikely to spend 10 years in the property after the death of the spouse, more likely to move back to the UK or downsize.Also, why assume everyone drinks alcohol, and will therefore save money in Spain ?


----------



## 90199

No point in coming to Spain if you don't drink alcohol………………..


----------



## gus-lopez

Aron said:


> Hmmm, my accountant has informed me differently. The Hacienda are now working on the results of the 720 forms. The tax office set up a data base, but all the input was done by our gestors or accountants. Whether they are understaffed is another matter, but I see no reason to worry if you pay your taxes. You just had to read certain British newspapers that reported expats were in a panic, but there was no panic and even now there us little worry about if you pay your due taxes, as most expats do.


of all the British people I know & have known here in Spain & the vast majority are pensioners ; none have ever mentioned that they pay tax . :sad:

One old boy asked me " What should we do about the 720 ?" 
I asked whether he was in the tax system, knowing full well he wasn't.
" Good lord no, I pay in the UK" 
"Not a lot of point doing a 720 then is it, as they'll want to know where you've been for the last 11 years ?"
I 've got ones that have never made a return in 30 years, I kid you not, have moved twice & sold a couple of years back with no retention as over 65, even though they had no tax notices. 
Notarys view is they're over 65 so there can be no cgt therefore as long as they've complied with any time period if one partner has died then there is no legal reason for a retention regardless of whether they've declared for tax. 
At least 4 have now sold up with no retention.
I know ones who have made numerous attempts TO pay & have been rebuffed time & again by the local Hacienda office.


----------



## Lynn R

extranjero said:


> The survivor is unlikely to spend 10 years in the property after the death of the spouse, more likely to move back to the UK or downsize.Also, why assume everyone drinks alcohol, and will therefore save money in Spain ?


Assuming that everyone drinks alcohol is no more unreasonable than assuming that all surviving spouses are unlikely to spend 10 years in the property after the death of the spouse. I've met lots of people who've been widowed and chosen to stay on in Spain, in the same property - provided they chose their location wisely in the first place and are not isolated, it makes better sense for them financially than selling up and buying somewhere else, paying a shedload more taxes in the process. Some people do decide they'd rather move back to the UK, but by no means everyone.


----------



## extranjero

Hepa said:


> No point in coming to Spain if you don't drink alcohol………………..


They say the same about smoking too......


----------



## Alcalaina

extranjero said:


> How do you make the IHT only 200? There will probably be other assets to be taxed on, and bank accounts in the UK, and they may live in a region where there are no regional allowances.
> The survivor is unlikely to spend 10 years in the property after the death of the spouse, more likely to move back to the UK or downsize.Also, why assume everyone drinks alcohol, and will therefore save money in Spain ?


It's just an example, based on a hypothetical situation (not dissimilar to my own). Obviously individual cases will vary.

Where did you get the idea that the surviving spouse had to spend 10 more years in the property? That's a new one on me!

EDIT: Is this what you were referring to?



> The inheritor must *retain ownership of the property for a minimum of 10 years*, although if he dies within the ten-year period no further tax is payable. If the property or business is sold during this period, tax may be levied at the discretion of the relevant authorities, e.g. the regional government.


----------



## extranjero

Alcalaina said:


> It's just an example, based on a hypothetical situation (not dissimilar to my own). Obviously individual cases will vary.
> 
> Where did you get the idea that the surviving spouse had to spend 10 more years in the property? That's a new one on me!


Actually they have to retain the property for 10 years, don't have to live in it. If sold before the 10 years, the corresponding IHT has to be paid.
As I said, many will want to move back or downsize, and need the money from the house sale to do it,
Anyway retaining the house but not living in it, is a poisoned chalice, a millstone, IBI , repairs etc


----------



## Alcalaina

extranjero said:


> Actually they have to retain the property for 10 years, don't have to live in it. If sold before the 10 years, the corresponding IHT has to be paid.
> As I said, many will want to move back or downsize, and need the money from the house sale to do it,
> Anyway retaining the house but not living in it, is a poisoned chalice, a millstone, IBI , repairs etc


Your post crossed with my edit, sorry.

As for moving back and not selling it, glass-half-full pèople might look on it as a nice place for their family to go on holiday, rather than a millstone.


----------



## extranjero

gus-lopez said:


> of all the British people I know & have known here in Spain & the vast majority are pensioners ; none have ever mentioned that they pay tax . :sad:
> 
> One old boy asked me " What should we do about the 720 ?"
> I asked whether he was in the tax system, knowing full well he wasn't.
> " Good lord no, I pay in the UK"
> "Not a lot of point doing a 720 then is it, as they'll want to know where you've been for the last 11 years ?"
> I 've got ones that have never made a return in 30 years, I kid you not, have moved twice & sold a couple of years back with no retention as over 65, even though they had no tax notices.
> Notarys view is they're over 65 so there can be no cgt therefore as long as they've complied with any time period if one partner has died then there is no legal reason for a retention regardless of whether they've declared for tax.
> At least 4 have now sold up with no retention.
> I know ones who have made numerous attempts TO pay & have been rebuffed time & again by the local Hacienda office.


Sounds good where you are Gus! Sickening for the rest of us who try to comply though.
Perhaps they ought to make an example of one of these old duffers, demand back payments, plus fine them, plus draconian fines for not submitting a 720.


----------



## extranjero

Alcalaina said:


> Your post crossed with my edit, sorry.
> 
> As for moving back and not selling it, glass-half-full pèople might look on it as a nice place for their family to go on holiday, rather than a millstone.


Nothing to do with glass full, it's practicalities.
Only worth keeping if someone can manage the cost of maintenance, repairs, pool care, gardening, I bet most would want it off their back plus they would probably need the money to get on with the rest of their life.


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> It's just an example, based on a hypothetical situation (not dissimilar to my own). Obviously individual cases will vary.


Unfortunately here in Murcia a surviving spouse will be paying on 50% of the value less 16k. This can be into 10's of 000's.
You are fortunate in Andalucia that the allowance is 150k Per person.

Doesn't the 10 year period reduce to 3 years if survivor is over 65 ? Or did I dream that ?


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> of all the British people I know & have known here in Spain & the vast majority are pensioners ; none have ever mentioned that they pay tax . :sad:
> 
> One old boy asked me " What should we do about the 720 ?"
> I asked whether he was in the tax system, knowing full well he wasn't.
> " Good lord no, I pay in the UK"
> "Not a lot of point doing a 720 then is it, as they'll want to know where you've been for the last 11 years ?"
> I 've got ones that have never made a return in 30 years, I kid you not, have moved twice & sold a couple of years back with no retention as over 65, even though they had no tax notices.
> Notarys view is they're over 65 so there can be no cgt therefore as long as they've complied with any time period if one partner has died then there is no legal reason for a retention regardless of whether they've declared for tax.
> At least 4 have now sold up with no retention.
> I know ones who have made numerous attempts TO pay & have been rebuffed time & again by the local Hacienda office.


I agree entirely. I know any number of pensioners and others who don't pay tax - mostly because they don't think they have to but, if they know they should, don't because nobody else does.

This might be of interest to them...



> THE Spanish tax agency has launched investigations into more than 27,000 retired expats and returned Spanish nationals for failing to declare their pensions from abroad.


Of course they'll be dead easy to find because they're all in the health system so a quick cross check between that database and the tax system and Roberto's tu tio.


----------



## Lynn R

Lynn R said:


> It does puzzle me that some people still appear to think that Spain is teetering on the brink of financial collapse which could put their assets at risk - it seems to me they are the ones who don't really have an understanding of what is going on.
> 
> If that were so, would Spain (as was announced last night) have just made the first repayment of €1,300M of the ECB loan to rescue the Spanish banks?
> 
> Espa?a inicia por sorpresa la devoluci?n del rescate de la banca | Econom?a | EL MUNDO


The interest Spain is now having to pay on its 10 year bonds has fallen to it's lowest ever level - lower than the UK, which is interesting:-

El â€˜plan Draghiâ€™ entusiasma al mercado | EconomÃ­a | EL PAÃ�S


----------



## promethian

Lynn R said:


> The interest Spain is now having to pay on its 10 year bonds has fallen to it's lowest ever level - lower than the UK, which is interesting:-
> 
> El â€˜plan Draghiâ€™ entusiasma al mercado | EconomÃ*a | EL PAÃ�S


Thats because ECB has now since thursday has -ve interest rates and are panicking Big time about the spectre of deflation, which if it happens will be a nightmare.


----------



## Lynn R

promethian said:


> Thats because ECB has now since thursday has -ve interest rates and are panicking Big time about the spectre of deflation, which if it happens will be a nightmare.


No, it isn't - the interest payable on Spanish Government bonds has been falling steadily over the last couple of years, well before the ECB's move this week.


----------



## promethian

Lynn R said:


> No, it isn't - the interest payable on Spanish Government bonds has been falling steadily over the last couple of years, well before the ECB's move this week.


In line with ECB rates... which have just reached lowest ever level on Thursday.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> No, it isn't - the interest payable on Spanish Government bonds has been falling steadily over the last couple of years, well before the ECB's move this week.


Because Spain's public debt is less of a concern than Spain's private debt. 
Interesting to note that the IMF has issued awarning about the likely consequences to the UK economy of the sharp increase in house prices and the growing amount of private debt.

The more you look at facts and actual evidence around you it does seem that things are slowly taking a turn for the better. I was talking to a Spanish friend who sells residential property last night and in his opinion the tide is turning.
Interestingly, it's not just guiris who are buying. Spaniards are getting into the market too. After all, with so many repossessions and the sharp drop in prices over the past ten years this is the time to buy if you can afford to.
As long as the debt spiral doesn't get a grip again...


----------



## mrypg9

And just a thought...if extranjero and jimenato are correct in saying that many pensioners haven't filed tax returns and 95% of those with declarable assets have failed to declare them, then if the doomsayers are right and all these people will be weeded out and punished...then surely the huge sum accrued from these 'draconian' fines will be enough to wipe out Spain's national debt and we law- abiding residents can sip our sunset sangria in tranquility.
Although I don't know anyone who lives here who drinks the stuff....


----------



## Lynn R

promethian said:


> In line with ECB rates... which have just reached lowest ever level on Thursday.


So why, as the article I linked to pointed out, has the gap between Spain's borrowing costs and Germany's (considered the most secure in the Eurozone) also been narrowing steadily, if they were both falling solely in line with ECB interest rates that would not be the case, would it now?


----------



## promethian

Lynn R said:


> So why, as the article I linked to pointed out, has the gap between Spain's borrowing costs and Germany's (considered the most secure in the Eurozone) also been narrowing steadily, if they were both falling solely in line with ECB interest rates that would not be the case, would it now?


Yes.. of course, but the main reasons are the ECB rates and projections.
Germany has had -ve bond rates!!!

From Market Watch

Treasurys were also supported earlier in the session by a rally in European government bonds on Friday, which extended moves from the previous session in the wake of a decision by the European Central Bank to enact a new package of easing measures. The corresponding rise in prices was the latest example of the surge in demand for riskier European debt amid low-rate policies by global central banks.

The Irish 10-year government bond yield dropped 13.5 basis points to 2.448%, which is below corresponding U.S. yields. The Italian 10-year IT:IT10YT -0.11% yield dropped 19 basis points to 2.756% while the Spanish 10-year yield was down 19.5 basis points at 2.638%, closing in on U.S.

So its not just Spain its all Eurozone

PWC also has an interesting chart

Global Economy Watch: Projections: PwC


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> And just a thought...if extranjero and jimenato are correct in saying that many pensioners haven't filed tax returns and 95% of those with declarable assets have failed to declare them, then if the doomsayers are right and all these people will be weeded out and punished...then surely the huge sum accrued from these 'draconian' fines will be enough to wipe out Spain's national debt and we law- abiding residents can sip our sunset sangria in tranquility.
> Although I don't know anyone who lives here who drinks the stuff....


No, can't say I do either. As much as it would be nice to see Spain's national debt wiped out at a stroke by catching up with tax evaders, I'd rather see them start with the multi-national companies, though! Followed by the corrupt politicians with Swiss bank accounts, and pensioners with foreign assets, be they foreign or Spaniards with pensions earned abroad which they haven't been declaring, a long way down the list.

I just continue to get nice little surprises about some aspect or other of living here. I mislaid my house keys yesterday so went to our nearest "hole in the wall" key cutting/knife sharpening shop to get some more cut this morning. Total cost for 3 keys, €3.60. I thought I'd misheard him at first and he must have said thirteen, not three, but no.

Anybody who doesn't want to risk it is welcome to stay away, I don't know why they make such a big deal about it. Nobody suggested moving to Spain be made compulsory, as far as I know.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> No, can't say I do either. As much as it would be nice to see Spain's national debt wiped out at a stroke by catching up with tax evaders, I'd rather see them start with the multi-national companies, though! Followed by the corrupt politicians with Swiss bank accounts, and pensioners with foreign assets, be they foreign or Spaniards with pensions earned abroad which they haven't been declaring, a long way down the list.
> 
> I just continue to get nice little surprises about some aspect or other of living here. I mislaid my house keys yesterday so went to our nearest "hole in the wall" key cutting/knife sharpening shop to get some more cut this morning. Total cost for 3 keys, €3.60. I thought I'd misheard him at first and he must have said thirteen, not three, but no.
> 
> Anybody who doesn't want to risk it is welcome to stay away, I don't know why they make such a big deal about it. Nobody suggested moving to Spain be made compulsory, as far as I know.


I had a similar experience with keys...I had two small ones cut and heard 'doce' but the price was 'dos euros'.
All true about the true leeches on national economies.
Ditto last paragraph: if you don't want the risk or can't afford to live here, stay away. Go elsewhere, somewhere hot and really cheap like Romania or Bulgaria.


----------



## promethian

Lynn R said:


> No, can't say I do either. As much as it would be nice to see Spain's national debt wiped out at a stroke by catching up with tax evaders, I'd rather see them start with the multi-national companies, though! Followed by the corrupt politicians with Swiss bank accounts, and pensioners with foreign assets, be they foreign or Spaniards with pensions earned abroad which they haven't been declaring, a long way down the list.
> 
> I just continue to get nice little surprises about some aspect or other of living here. I mislaid my house keys yesterday so went to our nearest "hole in the wall" key cutting/knife sharpening shop to get some more cut this morning. Total cost for 3 keys, €3.60. I thought I'd misheard him at first and he must have said thirteen, not three, but no.
> 
> Anybody who doesn't want to risk it is welcome to stay away, I don't know why they make such a big deal about it. Nobody suggested moving to Spain be made compulsory, as far as I know.


 Agree with last paragraph... and its still possible to come to Spain without all the risk, just don't buy and become a resident at the moment.

I'm sure things will improve in a few years time, but at the moment its great to sit with all my UK properties rising in prices, watching the £ creep towards 1.30 , and watch all the potential Spanish properties continue to drop in price.

I'll just rent


----------



## jimenato

promethian said:


> Agree with last paragraph... and its still possible to come to Spain without all the risk, just don't buy and become a resident at the moment.
> 
> I'm sure things will improve in a few years time, but at the moment its great to sit with all my UK properties rising in prices, watching the £ creep towards 1.30 , and watch all the potential Spanish properties continue to drop in price.
> 
> I'll just rent


I agree entirely but remember that 90 days from entry you have to apply to become resident and if you are here 183 days in any one year you have to declare all your UK properties and income even if you rent and haven't bought in Spain.


----------



## promethian

jimenato said:


> I agree entirely but remember that 90 days from entry you have to apply to become resident and if you are here 183 days in any one year you have to declare all your UK properties and income even if you rent haven't bought in Spain.


Yep in the know now.. all sorted from some very friendly people on here.


----------



## Lynn R

promethian said:


> Agree with last paragraph... and its still possible to come to Spain without all the risk, just don't buy and become a resident at the moment.
> 
> I'm sure things will improve in a few years time, but at the moment its great to sit with all my UK properties rising in prices, watching the £ creep towards 1.30 , and watch all the potential Spanish properties continue to drop in price.
> 
> I'll just rent


It IS great to see sterling gaining against the Euro, I should imagine that benefits a large proportion of we Brits who live here. On a purely personal level I'm not bothered if Spanish houses prices continue to fall, I don't want to sell and the house costs very little to run. I bought it in 2003 and in 2006 somebody paid 65% more for a smaller house a few doors away (it was the buyer who told me the price, not the seller, we all know sellers don't always like to say how much they accepted!) so a drop in the "paper" value of around 50% doesn't upset me unduly. I'm not sure that prices will continue to fall,though, or at least in all areas. I hardly seem to be able to go out these days without falling over somebody who's looking for a house to buy. 

Last week we stopped to give directions to a couple in the street, turned out they were from Northern Ireland, he'd just been offered a job in Malaga (don't know what kind) and they were looking for somewhere to buy. Sunday last, a couple arrived to stay at the house opposite ours in order to complete on a place they'd agreed to buy a few weeks ago. The day they left, another couple arrived who are also looking for a place. They've been looking at houses in small inland villages but have now decided they'd rather buy here instead and are in the process of arranging another trip over to view some properties. After they leave, there are two more lots of house hunters booked in for June (we know the owners of the house who emailed us from the States to let us know who'd be coming and going as they know we look out for anything amiss).

For every person who decides not to buy but to rent, there'll be another who wants to do the opposite. It's their choice, fair play to them.


----------



## mrypg9

Yes, renting is the best option for many...like us who sold all UK and overseas assets in 2008 and invested the capital from which we now pay the rent on a house we would not want to buy. 
Our landlord is excellent, any repairs we get done and deduct from rent, no problems whatsoever.
So no worries about forking out for expensive repairs, we have a secure contract for up to five years after which time we intend to move into a house owned by a friend...
We've had enough of property.
But our way wouldn't suit everyone. No one size fits all here. Viva Espana.
And as Lynn says, watching the £ rise against the euro is OK by us....


----------



## promethian

Lynn R said:


> It IS great to see sterling gaining against the Euro, I should imagine that benefits a large proportion of we Brits who live here. On a purely personal level I'm not bothered if Spanish houses prices continue to fall, I don't want to sell and the house costs very little to run. I bought it in 2003 and in 2006 somebody paid 65% more for a smaller house a few doors away (it was the buyer who told me the price, not the seller, we all know sellers don't always like to say how much they accepted!) so a drop in the "paper" value of around 50% doesn't upset me unduly. I'm not sure that prices will continue to fall,though, or at least in all areas. I hardly seem to be able to go out these days without falling over somebody who's looking for a house to buy.
> 
> Last week we stopped to give directions to a couple in the street, turned out they were from Northern Ireland, he'd just been offered a job in Malaga (don't know what kind) and they were looking for somewhere to buy. Sunday last, a couple arrived to stay at the house opposite ours in order to complete on a place they'd agreed to buy a few weeks ago. The day they left, another couple arrived who are also looking for a place. They've been looking at houses in small inland villages but have now decided they'd rather buy here instead and are in the process of arranging another trip over to view some properties. After they leave, there are two more lots of house hunters booked in for June (we know the owners of the house who emailed us from the States to let us know who'd be coming and going as they know we look out for anything amiss).
> 
> For every person who decides not to buy but to rent, there'll be another who wants to do the opposite. It's their choice, fair play to them.


I must admit I was one of those too, but quite a few people people advised me to rent as well. 

It took about 6 weeks or more to investigate myself the full reasons why they were saying it, and I'm a convert now.

I don't think you can go far wrong buying either, depends on circumstances of course.

But the the OP who started this thread was inquiring as to why people were being put off, I am one such person who was going to buy and has been put off to a certain extent which is why I am highlighting the reasons in my case.


----------



## Williams2

extranjero said:


> A lot of people would not want to transfer their savings etc to Spain when they move here, and who could blame them if they fear the possibility of a Cyprus style haircut!
> As for skint expats, no way, if you take into account the number of ex military, teachers, civil servants out here,. A lot seem to have more money than they know what to do with.


Eh correction - Ex military & certain civil servants would endure some sacrifice to their
financial well being upon becoming resident in Spain and living here.
Namely it would endanger their ability to return to SC Security Clearance jobs
back in the UK ( should they return ) if they remain resident abroad for longer than a year.


----------



## maxd

promethian said:


> Agree with last paragraph... and its still possible to come to Spain without all the risk, just don't buy and become a resident at the moment.
> 
> I'm sure things will improve in a few years time, but at the moment its great to sit with all my UK properties rising in prices, watching the £ creep towards 1.30 , and watch all the potential Spanish properties continue to drop in price.
> 
> I'll just rent


IMO we are near the bottom that is why we bought. One thing I know is you cannot time the market, if you have cash and find something you like bargain another 10-20% off and you will save yourself waiting.

For me it is a long term investment in my family, so not too bothered about a return but I also do not like to pay too much. Got a cracking deal from a girl who was unfortunately bankrupt and needed a quick sale, basically a 400m2 5 bedroom villa for 210K gbp. That is a London 1 bedroom/studio!

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44389924.html not a hard choice


----------



## promethian

maxd said:


> IMO we are near the bottom that is why we bought. One thing I know is you cannot time the market, if you have cash and find something you like bargain another 10-20% off and you will save yourself waiting.
> 
> For me it is a long term investment in my family, so not too bothered about a return but I also do not like to pay too much. Got a cracking deal from a girl who was unfortunately bankrupt and needed a quick sale, basically a 400m2 5 bedroom villa for 210K gbp. That is a London 1 bedroom/studio!
> 
> 1 bedroom maisonette for sale in Beulah Hill, Upper Norwood, SE19, SE19 not a hard choice


Its impossible to tell Max.

The one thing that is clear is to not believe any Spanish Mainstream propaganda.

I have just read this 

Beyond Their Ken? | A Fistful Of Euros

And have seen quite a few articles like it.

The main view in all independent views is the word Deflation.

The Guardian seems to have it spot on with this 

ECB's justified action will help but is no panacea for eurozone deflationary ills | Business | The Guardian.

Note the proviso in respect of Real Estate companies... the one thing the Spanish market did not want to hear.

I'm really amazed the £ has basically held its value in relation to the Euro over the past 5 years after all the QE and measures the UK has taken.

I will eat my proverbial hat if the QE'd Euro (if the Germans allow it to happen) holds its value likewise.

IMO which ever scenario does play out, the holders of Eurozone assets will lose.

Edit addition, You did get a cracking deal there.... so who knows


----------



## maxd

promethian said:


> Its impossible to tell Max.
> 
> The one thing that is clear is to not believe any Spanish Mainstream propaganda.
> 
> I have just read this
> 
> Beyond Their Ken? | A Fistful Of Euros
> 
> And have seen quite a few articles like it.
> 
> The main view in all independent views is the word Deflation.
> 
> The Guardian seems to have it spot on with this
> 
> ECB's justified action will help but is no panacea for eurozone deflationary ills | Business | The Guardian.
> 
> Note the proviso in respect of Real Estate companies... the one thing the Spanish market did not want to hear.
> 
> I'm really amazed the £ has basically held its value in relation to the Euro over the past 5 years after all the QE and measures the UK has taken.
> 
> I will eat my proverbial hat if the QE'd Euro (if the Germans allow it to happen) holds its value likewise.
> 
> IMO which ever scenario does play out, the holders of Eurozone assets will lose.
> 
> Edit addition, You did get a cracking deal there.... so who knows


When I buy anything, shares, on amazon, in the supermarket, a car, I ask myself does it look cheap?

I look at what is on the market what the price was and what it is now. The thing is in Spain, not all markets are equal. You have developments where 100% of stuff is for sale and in other areas as soon as something is on the market for the right price it sells. I do not let the media decide for me because the truth is no one really knows, if they did they would be billionaires.

What I do know is all the places in my street have sold, other people are renovating. If you do find a place you like for the right price, you have the cash and you like it go and buy it or you might end up like the lady who put a letter in my letterbox asking if the house was still for sale.

The old owner of my house asked me to take the for sale sign down on the roof because he was getting calls every week whilst I was away for 2 months. Anyway off topic but just thought I would tell you the reality of what I see, not what you read in the media, things are really picking up.


----------



## promethian

maxd said:


> When I buy anything, shares, on amazon, in the supermarket, a car, I ask myself does it look cheap?
> 
> I look at what is on the market what the price was and what it is now. The thing is in Spain, not all markets are equal. You have developments where 100% of stuff is for sale and in other areas as soon as something is on the market for the right price it sells. I do not let the media decide for me because the truth is no one really knows, if they did they would be billionaires.
> 
> What I do know is all the places in my street have sold, other people are renovating. If you do find a place you like for the right price, you have the cash and you like it go and buy it or you might end up like the lady who put a letter in my letterbox asking if the house was still for sale.
> 
> The old owner of my house asked me to take the for sale sign down on the roof because he was getting calls every week whilst I was away for 2 months. Anyway off topic but just thought I would tell you the reality of what I see, not what you read in the media, things are really picking up.


You are of course right........ hence my final contradictory comment


----------



## maxd

promethian said:


> You are of course right........ hence my final contradictory comment


3.4 million empty homes....where are they? Might find this interesting. Our place is in the Canaries where there is a 4% vacant rate.


----------



## mrypg9

maxd said:


> 3.4 million empty homes....where are they? Might find this interesting. Our place is in the Canaries where there is a 4% vacant rate.


Why is property in the Canaries so cheap compared to many other parts of Spain?
From what I have read the tourist trade is doing well and unemployment isn't a major problem. The climate is good and as we're talking of islands there isn't an endless supply of building land.
I know a lot of mainland property especially round here is ridiculously overpriced but that is irrelevant as there are people prepared to buy and the top end of the market nearly always holds its price.


----------



## Aron

Someone told me something interesting today, and they have a good point. If you are buying property and everything on the face of it looks good, before you buy it, park your car nearby and sleep in your car overnight. There are people in Spain who leave their dogs out at night and they do nothing but bark. Local Spaniards don't seem to notice noise like the Brits do. My neighbour has a huge dog out all night. He doesn't bark too much unless the other neighbours cats are walking through the garden, then all hell breaks loose!


----------



## mrypg9

Aron said:


> Someone told me something interesting today, and they have a good point. If you are buying property and everything on the face of it looks good, before you buy it, park your car nearby and sleep in your car overnight. There are people in Spain who leave their dogs out at night and they do nothing but bark. Local Spaniards don't seem to notice noise like the Brits do. My neighbour has a huge dog out all night. He doesn't bark too much unless the other neighbours cats are walking through the garden, then all hell breaks loose!


Everyone in our street has at least one dog. Nearly everyone leaves their dogs out all night. We don't but then we are the only Brits and yes, we do get woken up some nights by a cacophony of barking hounds. But then we used to get woken up by the basura truck which gets here between 12.30 a.m. and 2.00 a.m and now we don't notice it.
There is a field of goats at the end of the road and occasionally people put horses on waste ground a few doors down so on hot days when the wind blows our way there are rustic scents to add to the canine cacophony.


----------



## Alcalaina

maxd said:


> 3.4 million empty homes....where are they? Might find this interesting. Our place is in the Canaries where there is a 4% vacant rate.


Many are in rural towns which have suffered depopulation over the past few decades. About one house in ten in our town is empty. Some of them are old and falling down, others are new, they were spec-built in the boom and never got sold.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Many are in rural towns which have suffered depopulation over the past few decades. About one house in ten in our town is empty. Some of them are old and falling down, others are new, they were spec-built in the boom and never got sold.


We've got lots in our area which are owned by local Spanish families, not lived in, but people come regularly to clean them and they do get painted and maintained as well. The house across the street to the side of us has never had anybody living there since we bought ours 11 years ago, but some cats live there and the owners come every day to clean and feed the cats. The lady's mother's house which is immediately behind ours has been empty for 5 years since the old lady died, and she cleans and checks on that one too.


----------



## Chopera

maxd said:


> 3.4 million empty homes....where are they? Might find this interesting. Our place is in the Canaries where there is a 4% vacant rate.


Adela Úcar: "Las urbanizaciones fantasmas han destrozado el paisaje y hundido el país" - Noticias T06xP03: '21 días en urbanizaciones fantasmas' - 21 DÍAS

was shown on the telly the other week


----------



## 90199

mrypg9 said:


> Why is property in the Canaries so cheap compared to many other parts of Spain?
> From what I have read the tourist trade is doing well and unemployment isn't a major problem. The climate is good and as we're talking of islands there isn't an endless supply of building land.
> I know a lot of mainland property especially round here is ridiculously overpriced but that is irrelevant as there are people prepared to buy and the top end of the market nearly always holds its price.


I have browsed estate agents in Spain and the Canary Isles, from what I have seen property here is far more expensive.

Unemployment is the highest in Spain 37.5%, or so we are told. In addition to pineapples we now export people, they have to leave to find employment, things were different three or four years ago.

Tourism is increasing on the larger islands, but nothing like it was, for a good indicator ask a Taxi driver how busy he is.

I have often wondered if the Canary Isles would be better off independent, after all we are the first and last Spanish colony, I have asked the locals the same question the answers vary very much.


----------



## mrypg9

Hepa said:


> I have browsed estate agents in Spain and the Canary Isles, from what I have seen property here is far more expensive.
> 
> Unemployment is the highest in Spain 37.5%, or so we are told. In addition to pineapples we now export people, they have to leave to find employment, things were different three or four years ago.
> 
> Tourism is increasing on the larger islands, but nothing like it was, for a good indicator ask a Taxi driver how busy he is.
> 
> I have often wondered if the Canary Isles would be better off independent, after all we are the first and last Spanish colony, I have asked the locals the same question the answers vary very much.


Well, for what max paid for a five bed villa you might get a two bed piso in Marbella!! If you don't believe me, ask Brocher, she lives there! Grossly over-priced, I admit.
A friend here put a five bed villa on the market at a greatly reduced -almost 40% drop - price, just back from the village beach. She asked for 550k euros. Small garden and pool too.
The cheapest property I've seen round here is a one bed studio for just over £100 and the other side of Estepona, around Manilva, someone said two bed pisos are going for around that, bank repos..but there's an awful lot of unsold and unfinished properties in that area.

I've never been to the Canaries, in fact until recently when someone -you? - told me, I didn't realise that they were so far from mainland Spain.


----------



## maxd

Yep, canaries is in general more expensive than the mainland. The government are smart too having a ban on any new buildings, hence the low vacancy rate compared to the rest of spain and of course being hilly islands there is limited land to build on. 

I would be for indepedence too hepa! I see the slogans on bus stops and walls but most people like being part of spain.


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> Well, for what max paid for a five bed villa you might get a two bed piso in Marbella!! If you don't believe me, ask Brocher, she lives there! Grossly over-priced, I admit.
> A friend here put a five bed villa on the market at a greatly reduced -almost 40% drop - price, just back from the village beach. She asked for 550k euros. Small garden and pool too.
> The cheapest property I've seen round here is a one bed studio for just over £100 and the other side of Estepona, around Manilva, someone said two bed pisos are going for around that, bank repos..but there's an awful lot of unsold and unfinished properties in that area.
> 
> I've never been to the Canaries, in fact until recently when someone -you? - told me, I didn't realise that they were so far from mainland Spain.


Go and have a look, you might never go return to the mainland. We love it, back for a other 2 months in 3 weeks time.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Yep, canaries is in general more expensive than the mainland. The government are smart too having a ban on any new buildings, hence the low vacancy rate compared to the rest of spain and of course being hilly islands there is limited land to build on.
> 
> I would be for indepedence too hepa! I see the slogans on bus stops and walls but most people like being part of spain.


It very much depends as to which part of the mainland, though.

The fact that there isn't an inexhaustible supply of land would surely push up house prices, I agree. But not all of mainland Spain is cheaper, far from it.
I don't know about the Atlantic coast or further north but properties here are more expensive to buy and rent.
When we first arrived here we were taken to view a three bedroomed ground floor apartment on a large urbanisation. It was dark and gloomy, the garden was the size of a postage stamp and the kitchen was unbelievably filthy with broken cupboard doors and peeling tiles. 
Asking price was just under 400k euros. 
That was just under five years ago and I guess it is still on the market as I cannot imagine anyone buying it, even if the price was halved.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Go and have a look, you might never go return to the mainland. We love it, back for a other 2 months in 3 weeks time.


I must admit it sounds as if you get a lot for your money. We're here for the duration now, love the house and neighbourhood.
We are here purely and simply because my son has had property in the village for fifteen years or so and it seemed sensible to use his house until we found somewhere to live. We looked around inland and up the coast but it didn't take long before we had begun to get used to the area and made friends. So we didn't want to move. It wasn't a conscious choice to be here in this area, far from it.
It seems from what we are told that everything is more expensive here, from house prices to rents to groceries. I must say it seems to be true from what we have seen from trips inland. 
Benahavis, not far away, is allegedly the 'wealthiest village in Spain'. The Goldsmith family, the Svarovskis and Prince have properties there and there was an enormous tract of land belonging to Ghaddafi - apparently there were plans for luxury housing, hotels and yet another golf course. 
There is a posh hotel where Michele Obama stayed when she visited and our animal charity was invited to participate in a gala benefit. All proceeds were to be shared with us and a Marbella animal charity. It was organised by Princess Somebody or Other.
We were given two free tickets and two of our friends bought tickets at 150 euros. Jermaine Jackson was flown over to entertain.
We got nothing from the event and no bills were paid, apparently. A picture sold at auction for 500 euros was returned the next day by the 'Countess' who bought it......she changed her mind.
We were all pretty pissed off and disappointed but it goes to show the reality behind a lot of the so-called glittering elite of Marbella.

My son used to like Fuerteventura...he took all his girlfriends there...and to the same hotel!


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## maxd

mrypg9 said:


> It very much depends as to which part of the mainland, though.
> 
> The fact that there isn't an inexhaustible supply of land would surely push up house prices, I agree. But not all of mainland Spain is cheaper, far from it.
> I don't know about the Atlantic coast or further north but properties here are more expensive to buy and rent.
> When we first arrived here we were taken to view a three bedroomed ground floor apartment on a large urbanisation. It was dark and gloomy, the garden was the size of a postage stamp and the kitchen was unbelievably filthy with broken cupboard doors and peeling tiles.
> Asking price was just under 400k euros.
> That was just under five years ago and I guess it is still on the market as I cannot imagine anyone buying it, even if the price was halved.


They like their places dark and dingy don't they. This is what I keep on trying to get through to people, not all parts of Spain are the same. Inland, villages where there is no future, cynical developments by motorways and airports, new cities outside major cities etc will not sell in 10 years.

On the other side you have nice villas near the coast at 50% off peak prices where lots of northern Europeans are looking to retire, for a second home or whatever. Good properties always sell IF PRICED RIGHT. You have the dreamers who snarl and gnash that they cannot sell, it because they cannot bare to face the reality that they will have to take a loss if they need to sell. Side step them and view the ones prices right and you will be laughing and if you need to sell in the future you probably will, worse case not lose much, best case make double.


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## Lynn R

Lots of people seem to read the doom and gloom stuff in the media about the "ghost towns" and milliions of unsold properties, get on a plane and come looking for a property in a popular area, then they're surprised why they can't buy a villa with pool for €100,000.

Friends of ours were thinking of buying a holiday home in the Nerja area, came over and said, after looking around at prices "but we thought property was supposed to be cheap in Spain now"!


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Well, for what max paid for a five bed villa you might get a two bed piso in Marbella!! If you don't believe me, ask Brocher, she lives there! Grossly over-priced, I admit.
> A friend here put a five bed villa on the market at a greatly reduced -almost 40% drop - price, just back from the village beach. She asked for 550k euros. Small garden and pool too.
> The cheapest property I've seen round here is a one bed studio for just over £100 and the other side of Estepona, around Manilva, someone said two bed pisos are going for around that, bank repos..but there's an awful lot of unsold and unfinished properties in that area.
> 
> I've never been to the Canaries, in fact until recently when someone -you? - told me, I didn't realise that they were so far from mainland Spain.



You cannot compare where you are with the rest of Spain. It would be like comparing Monaco to France.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> They like their places dark and dingy don't they. This is what I keep on trying to get through to people, not all parts of Spain are the same. Inland, villages where there is no future, cynical developments by motorways and airports, new cities outside major cities etc will not sell in 10 years.
> 
> On the other side you have nice villas near the coast at 50% off peak prices where lots of northern Europeans are looking to retire, for a second home or whatever. Good properties always sell IF PRICED RIGHT. You have the dreamers who snarl and gnash that they cannot sell, it because they cannot bare to face the reality that they will have to take a loss if they need to sell. Side step them and view the ones prices right and you will be laughing and if you need to sell in the future you probably will, worse case not lose much, best case make double.


Good advice, max...but we gave up property ownership almost ten years ago When I was younger and had more energy I bought up old properties - like really old - for a song, had them renovated and resold. Then we had a couple of newer properties we rented out but I just couldn't be doing with the hassle and expense of repairs and awkward tenants. 
But I totally agree with you about being realistic. When we left the UK we rented the house we had lived in for thirty years but after six months of a thieving Polish tenant we decided to sell...and we took the first reasonable offer to get it off our hands. Ditto business premises. Sandra's mother died, left her the house in a nice part of Scotland, she put it on the market at nine o'clock, eleven o'clock we were on our way to Gibraltar and she got a call with an offer.. she accepted. In my view you either want to sell or you don't. Some people here are very unrealistic about what they see as the 'value' of their property. They ask for silly prices and blame everyone but themselves when the house is on the market five years later.
You are younger and keener and with a young family so it's good that you have enthusiasm and sharp business skills. I'm past it now, just want to relax and watch the world go by.


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## maxd

Property for sale in Marbella and Property in Marbella

was just looking in Marbella, looks like you really need 500k for a decent villa there. If I put 400K started to see semi detached.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> You cannot compare where you are with the rest of Spain. It would be like comparing Monaco to France.


Hmm...I am to Grace Kelly as Gracie Fields is to Maria Callas...

We're just doing our best to lower the tone...

Houses in our street are indeed selling at high prices but most of the people who live here aren't wealthy and are quite surprised to find their properties have shot up - and down - in value. 
Our next-door friends and neighbours are both retired, he a former truck driver, she a primary school teacher. They built the house themselves, lived in the garage until the inside was ready for habitation, apparently. 
The guy on the other side also designed and built his house. I think he worked in an architect's office. Land was cheap here then.
This was over twenty years or more ago and this area was more or less campo. The main bedroom of our house has french doors that at one time would have had a view straight over the campo to the mountains. As there was no street as such outside you could sleep with persianas up as there was no-one to look in.
Now anyone passing would have a view of you lying in bed. 
We use the room as a library/study.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Property for sale in Marbella and Property in Marbella
> 
> was just looking in Marbella, looks like you really need 500k for a decent villa there. If I put 400K started to see semi detached.


More than that, max....houses in our street have sold for more and we aren't Marbella.

A five bed villa in Marbella would set you back a million euros plus..
Then there's that La Zigara something or other in the hills above Marbella, where properties go for multi-millions. I read that Putin is buying there.

I don't like Marbella and never go there except to drop Sandra off at her beauty clinic.
No point in me going to such an establishment.

Have just found a six bed villa in Nagueles, outside Marbella, 1, 1579 euros..don't know how to send links..also 3 bed townhouse in Marbella, just under 500k euros.


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## 90199

maxd said:


> Go and have a look, you might never go return to the mainland. We love it, back for a other 2 months in 3 weeks time.


Hang on, Europe/Iberia/Spain are not our Mainland, geographically we are nearer West Africa

However the correct regional term is that we are part of Macaronesia , see link.

Proyecto INDICE INTERREG IIIB


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## maxd

Hepa said:


> Hang on, Europe/Iberia/Spain are not our Mainland, geographically we are nearer West Africa
> 
> However the correct regional term is that we are part of Macaronesia , see link.
> 
> Proyecto INDICE INTERREG IIIB


Amen brother Canarian. Culturally Spanish, Geographically Africa I thought. Macaronesia sounds far cooler though, like we are some South Pacific Island group.


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## gus-lopez

Hepa said:


> However the correct regional term is that we are part of Macaronesia , [/url]


I've seen that in the supermarket. Sort of cross between macaroni & mayonnaise.


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## zenkarma

maxd said:


> Good properties always sell IF PRICED RIGHT.


Spot on.

Quality properties will always sell as long as they're priced according to the market and market competition.

The properties not selling are the 'rubbish' ones in poor/bad locations and/or of poor/bad build quality and the ones over-priced according to the market. 

As others have rightly pointed out, just become someone paid 400k at the peak of the market 5 or 6 years ago doesn't make it worth 400k now. It's worth whatever the current market price is according to what similar type properties in the same area are selling for. For most southern coastal areas that's probably going to be anything up to 60% off what the peak market value was.


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> Spot on.
> 
> Quality properties will always sell as long as they're priced according to the market and market competition.
> 
> The properties not selling are the 'rubbish' ones in poor/bad locations and/or of poor/bad build quality and the ones over-priced according to the market.
> 
> As others have rightly pointed out, just become someone paid 400k at the peak of the market 5 or 6 years ago doesn't make it worth 400k now. It's worth whatever the current market price is according to what similar type properties in the same area are selling for. For most southern coastal areas that's probably going to be anything up to 60% off what the peak market value was.


Which is exactly what is happening here. Properties which ten years ago would have been sold for over a million euros and which are now priced at almost half that are selling, albeit slowly. Three have changed hands in our street in the last year. They are quality properties on double or even larger plots with large pool and lovely mature gardens.
But there are some that are still on the market at 2005 prices and they are still unsold and have been for five years or more.
The owner of one such property three houses down from us had his house taken over by squatters. After they were evicted by the police with sniffer dogs he installed a guy who works at a local garden maintenance company as a live-in watchman.....
People post on here that they want to sell but are unwilling to 'give their property away'.
They bought at market price and they must sell at market price which seems bleedin' obvious..


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## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> People post on here that they want to sell but are unwilling to 'give their property away'.
> They bought at market price and they must sell at market price which seems bleedin' obvious..


Hi Mary 

I'm currently enjoying the Spanish sunshine and culture, so if you're up this way give me a shout!

And yes, people sadly are still in denial that the property they paid muy dinero for at the peak of the market is now worth about half of what they paid. I have some empathy for those people as I'm in a similar position and thinking about selling but am lucky enough that my property was purchased a few years prior to the peak so still has some fat left in it. It's still irksome that it has lost so much value though!

Wandering around and looking in the imobililaria windows still makes me chuckle that as you rightly say—so many people still have such unrealistic expectations of what their properties are currently worth.


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> Hi Mary
> 
> I'm currently enjoying the Spanish sunshine and culture, so if you're up this way give me a shout!
> 
> And yes, people sadly are still in denial that the property they paid muy dinero for at the peak of the market is now worth about half of what they paid. I have some empathy for those people as I'm in a similar position and thinking about selling but am lucky enough that my property was purchased a few years prior to the peak so still has some fat left in it. It's still irksome that it has lost so much value though!
> 
> Wandering around and looking in the imobililaria windows still makes me chuckle that as you rightly say—so many people still have such unrealistic expectations of what their properties are currently worth.


Hi Zen,

Missed your posts.. Pleased you're here at last.. and settled in.
How far away from me are you? I would really enjoy a civilised informed discussion with you over a copa or two ..or more.
Meanwhile...what's your take on ECB 's negative interest rates? I know deflation is very bad for debtors but is it a good idea to pump more cheap credit into the market...after all, that's what got us in trouble in the first place..


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## Sirtravelot

Will that actually push banks to lend mortgages? I thought they were mostly to lend out to businesses.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Hi Zen,
> 
> 
> How far away from me are you? I would really enjoy a civilised informed discussion with you over a copa or two ..or more.
> ..



It's 300kms Garrucha to Malaga. So another 100 Malaga to you ? 4,5 hrs ?


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> It's 300kms Garrucha to Malaga. So another 100 Malaga to you ? 4,5 hrs ?


I'm about 60 km from Malaga City...
My problem is that I'm no good for long drives at the moment, am waiting for an eye op.


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## zenkarma

mrypg9 said:


> Pleased you're here at last.. and settled in.


I'm not sure I've settled in as such—I'm just here on an extended holiday trying to decide what to do and where to go next! I do like Spain. I like the people, the culture, the more relaxed way of life and the food. Just tasting real tomatoes again was a treat in itself. It's the simple things that matter!



mrypg9 said:


> How far away from me are you? I would really enjoy a civilised informed discussion with you over a copa or two ..or more.


I'm about 45 minutes drive from Almeria going in the opposite direction to you, so I'd estimate a good 3-4 hour drive from where you are. I wouldn't be able to get down there on this trip but Im hoping to perhaps come back later in the year for for 2-3 months so maybe then. I would like to have a look around the Marbella area, just to see what all the fuss is about!



mrypg9 said:


> Meanwhile...what's your take on ECB 's negative interest rates? I know deflation is very bad for debtors but is it a good idea to pump more cheap credit into the market...after all, that's what got us in trouble in the first place..


It's a desperate attempt by the ECB to stimulate the Eurozone economy. As you rightly say they're worried about deflation—falling prices and that could further hamper the recovery if consumers pull in spending in the belief prices could fall further in the future. 

By charging banks to hold surplus funds on deposit they're encouraging them to lend to private sector businesses in a hope this will further stimulate the economy. One of the possible side benefits of this is a potential devaluation of the euro against other currencies which should help the exports of countries like Spain at the same time as causing imports to rise.

I just see this as further evidence that the eurozone economy is in an utter mess and isn't going to get any better anytime soon as long as a bunch of disparate economies are linked together by a single currency. 

Industrial powerhouses like Germany need a strong currency and the weaker southern med countries need a weak one. Until they solve that problem, fiddling with central bank interest rates isn't going to make a lot of difference in my opinion.

The eurozone single currency business model has failed—the EU politicians and bureaucrats just aren't willing to accept that.


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## mrypg9

zenkarma said:


> I'm not sure I've settled in as such—I'm just here on an extended holiday trying to decide what to do and where to go next! I do like Spain. I like the people, the culture, the more relaxed way of life and the food. Just tasting real tomatoes again was a treat in itself. It's the simple things that matter!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm about 45 minutes drive from Almeria going in the opposite direction to you, so I'd estimate a good 3-4 hour drive from where you are. I wouldn't be able to get down there on this trip but Im hoping to perhaps come back later in the year for for 2-3 months so maybe then. I would like to have a look around the Marbella area, just to see what all the fuss is about!
> 
> 
> 
> It's a desperate attempt by the ECB to stimulate the Eurozone economy. As you rightly say they're worried about deflation—falling prices and that could further hamper the recovery if consumers pull in spending in the belief prices could fall further in the future.
> 
> By charging banks to hold surplus funds on deposit they're encouraging them to lend to private sector businesses in a hope this will further stimulate the economy. One of the possible side benefits of this is a potential devaluation of the euro against other currencies which should help the exports of countries like Spain at the same time as causing imports to rise.
> 
> I just see this as further evidence that the eurozone economy is in an utter mess and isn't going to get any better anytime soon as long as a bunch of disparate economies are linked together by a single currency.
> 
> Industrial powerhouses like Germany need a strong currency and the weaker southern med countries need a weak one. Until they solve that problem, fiddling with central bank interest rates isn't going to make a lot of difference in my opinion.
> 
> The eurozone single currency business model has failed—the EU politicians and bureaucrats just aren't willing to accept that.


Couldn't agree more. That was what I made of it. The more you consider the differing stages of economic development of the member states the dafter the idea of a single currency. Now Albania is considered for eventual membership...Ukraine next? But it's all in the interests of the free market.

Yes, visit Marbella....don't forget open-neck shirt, gold chain and chest hair...a leggy blonde half your age is a suitable accessory

I'm reading THAT Piketty book...very interesting and an easy read in spite of its literal and economic weight. Weighs a ton, not for stashing in a handbag. Any views on that?
Have a nice day, overcast here, no hot water, waiting for the plumber, swimming pool problems, technician just left...but we're in Spain so what's not to like?


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## maxd

I would come and see you all but I will be a couple 1000 km's away in macro Macaronesia :rockon::rockon:


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> I would come and see you all but I will be a couple 1000 km's away in macro Macaronesia :rockon::rockon:


Cuidado max...we may all come to see you!!lane:

P.S. Isn't Zeman a pillock......


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## el pescador

jimenato said:


> I agree entirely but remember that 90 days from entry you have to apply to become resident and if you are here 183 days in any one year you have to declare all your UK properties and income even if you rent and haven't bought in Spain.



When do you have to declare?
Is it correct that if i became a fiscal resident this calendar year I have to declare by the end of March 2015?


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## snikpoh

el pescador said:


> When do you have to declare?
> Is it correct that if i became a fiscal resident this calendar year I have to declare by the end of March 2015?


For Spanish residents, the tax year runs from January 1st to December 31st.

Tax declarations must be in by June of the following year.

For non-residents, their tax declaration must be in by December 31st.


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## Rabbitcat

If you are a non resident and not there in Spain around December is there a fine for not sending it in until next time you are over there?


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## snikpoh

Rabbitcat said:


> If you are a non resident and not there in Spain around December is there a fine for not sending it in until next time you are over there?


Yes.


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## Rabbitcat

Is it a set amount or % of bill?


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## Lynn R

snikpoh said:


> For Spanish residents, the tax year runs from January 1st to December 31st.
> 
> Tax declarations must be in by June of the following year.
> 
> For non-residents, their tax declaration must be in by December 31st.


But wasn't El Pescador asking about the deadline for submitting a Modelo 720 return, not an income tax return? The 720 does have to be submitted by 31st March if you became tax resident in the precediing year ending 31 December, I believe - unless there is any complication involved in submitting a 720 before you've made your first tax return?


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## extranjero

I think one of the main reasons is, that there is now a handy list of all your assets to refer to when IHT is payable, much easier for the tax office, as opposed to the situation a few years ago when assets outside Spain were not taken into account as they should have been.


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## snikpoh

Lynn R said:


> But wasn't El Pescador asking about the deadline for submitting a Modelo 720 return, not an income tax return? The 720 does have to be submitted by 31st March if you became tax resident in the precediing year ending 31 December, I believe - unless there is any complication involved in submitting a 720 before you've made your first tax return?


You may be right - it wasn't clear (to me).


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## el pescador

Lynn R said:


> But wasn't El Pescador asking about the deadline for submitting a Modelo 720 return, not an income tax return? The 720 does have to be submitted by 31st March if you became tax resident in the precediing year ending 31 December, I believe - unless there is any complication involved in submitting a 720 before you've made your first tax return?




thanks Lynn.

I tried looking last night and with google translate i did find it about an hour later lol.
Thanks though.


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