# A salutory warning



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

People we have known for about 4 years arrived near us about 5 years ago. Not really one of the best planned moves as they apparently borrowed money to do it and there was no thought for the future. During that 4 years they just about got the hang of ordering a cup of coffee (ok slight exaggeration but close). He couldn't get work and the odd jobs he did as builder tended to go wrong.....

They found they couldn't afford to live, pay the rent, run a car or even at times feed themselves. We tried to help in many ways but could see it was a bottomless pit getting deeper all the time.

10 weeks ago they announced to us that they were returning to the UK where he could sign on, his wife get medical treatment, get free housing and benefits. We warned them that it might not be that simple but, hey what did we know.

Now, 10 weeks later they are living with friends and family unable to pay rent. Can't afford a car, can't get work. Medical treatment suspended unless they pay for it, Benefits refused for at least six months (appeal pending), no money and are having to borrow they tell us yet again, to eat.

I suppose I should feel sorry for them but somehow the words about 'digging you own hole' spring to mind.

The only thing that has changed for them is the weather! 

If anybody is thinking of jumping ship in Spain to go back to 'good ol Blighty' where they will get everything on a plate it might, at least, be worth a long rethink or some very careful research!

I think the Government might actually be starting to get a bit tougher. Let's hope it applies to everybody equally but some account is made for expats, many of whom, like me, who are still paying tax over there.

Coming to live in Spain was, for us, one of the best things we have done and I would recommend it to anybody but plan it, don't just think it will all be ok!


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> People we have known for about 4 years arrived near us about 5 years ago. Not really one of the best planned moves as they apparently borrowed money to do it and there was no thought for the future. During that 4 years they just about got the hang of ordering a cup of coffee (ok slight exaggeration but close). He couldn't get work and the odd jobs he did as builder tended to go wrong.....
> 
> They found they couldn't afford to live, pay the rent, run a car or even at times feed themselves. We tried to help in many ways but could see it was a bottomless pit getting deeper all the time.
> 
> ...


I happen to know a couple who returned to the UK at about the same time, who had been here about the same amount of time & have ended up in exactly the same situation

they were sure they'd get a house, benefits & so on as soon as they landed - in fact phoned us a week or so after they got there to tell us that's what they were getting - their words were 'we've landed on our feet'

OH got an e-mail last week - they are still with the in-laws, no sign of benefits & no chance of a house


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> People we have known for about 4 years arrived near us about 5 years ago. Not really one of the best planned moves as they apparently borrowed money to do it and there was no thought for the future. During that 4 years they just about got the hang of ordering a cup of coffee (ok slight exaggeration but close). He couldn't get work and the odd jobs he did as builder tended to go wrong.....
> 
> They found they couldn't afford to live, pay the rent, run a car or even at times feed themselves. We tried to help in many ways but could see it was a bottomless pit getting deeper all the time.
> 
> ...



I would point out that most benefits are not related to the tax one pays but to residency in the UK. If you have not been resident for some years and have not paid your contributions you may not be able to claim the full amount of benefit.
Ah, but I have no doubt some will say, what about all those Poles etc. who qualify for benefits from the moment they set foot in the UK???
Answer is: they don't. Not until they have they have the required amount of 'stamps'.
People who claim otherwise spend too much time reading The Daily Mail.
There will be scant sympathy in the UK for those who emigrated, failed and came back hoping the UK taxpayer will bail them out.
They should have read the 'small print'.
fter all, we don't want a 'nanny state', do we?


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I would point out that most benefits are not related to the tax one pays but to residency in the UK. If you have not been resident for some years and have not paid your contributions you may not be able to claim the full amount of benefit.
> Ah, but I have no doubt some will say, what about all those Poles etc. who qualify for benefits from the moment they set foot in the UK???
> Answer is: they don't. Not until they have they have the required amount of 'stamps'.
> People who claim otherwise spend too much time reading The Daily Mail.
> ...




Oh very droll LOL
Although it may not have come across I really don't have any sympathy for what they have done but then again I hate to see people in a mess for whatever reason hence this post to warn others.
Got to ask, why the 'downer' on the daily mail. Personally I prefer the Telegraph but you seem to really deride the Mail.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*I wonder?*



xabiachica said:


> I happen to know a couple who returned to the UK at about the same time, who had been here about the same amount of time & have ended up in exactly the same situation
> 
> they were sure they'd get a house, benefits & so on as soon as they landed - in fact phoned us a week or so after they got there to tell us that's what they were getting - their words were 'we've landed on our feet'
> 
> OH got an e-mail last week - they are still with the in-laws, no sign of benefits & no chance of a house


Now Javea is not that far from us and coincidence is a wonderful thing.......


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> Now Javea is not that far from us and coincidence is a wonderful thing.......


I did wonder as I read it - this guy wasn't a builder though


nor did he pretend to be


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I did wonder as I read it - this guy wasn't a builder though
> 
> 
> nor did he pretend to be


In fairness neither did the guy I know, odd jobs, gardening etc were his scene


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I can't really see how they can be denied healthcare . The requirements are that you have returned to the Uk to find work & are staying permanently. You are entitled even if you aren't as long as you have lived in the UK in excess of 10 years at some time in the past.

Entitlement to Free NHS Hospital Treatment by Non-Resident
UK Citizens
This leaflet has been compiled to explain the entitlement requirements for free NHS hospital treatment
in the UK for Non-Resident UK Citizens.
• The NHS does not normally provide free hospital treatment for
people who do not reside in the UK even if they are UK nationals
• If you have lived outside the UK for more than 3 months
(6 months for some pensioners) in the last year you can be charged
• You will be exempt from charges if you can produce evidence that
you have been working abroad for less than 5 years and have lived
in the UK continuously for at least 10 years at some point

http://www.pah.nhs.uk/files/c) Non Resident UK Citizens.pdf


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> I can't really see how they can be denied healthcare . The requirements are that you have returned to the Uk to find work & are staying permanently. You are entitled even if you aren't as long as you have lived in the UK in excess of 10 years at some time in the past.
> 
> Entitlement to Free NHS Hospital Treatment by Non-Resident
> UK Citizens
> ...


I think the highlighted points are the key. They had lived outside the UK for more than 3 months. He can't produce evidence that he worked outside the UK because legally as far as I know, he didn't.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

As for entitlement to housing benefit and income support (among other things), some applicants have to pass the* habitual residence test*. There are no clear cut rules about who should be subject to this test and who aren't, but generally it's applied to anyone who has lived abroad within 2 years of applying for benefit. Nor are there clear criteria for passing the test. The crux of the test is about where your 'centre of interest' is - is it UK or elsewhere? Key factors comprise length, continuity and general nature of actual residence, but intentions are also considered. You may have more than one centre of interest, for example, if you work in UK during the week and stay with your family abroad each weekend. Each application is considered on its merit, and the test is usually administered by the local authority, often on behalf of DWP. The test applies equally to British citizens and other EEA citizens, though if the latter are exercising treaty rights in UK, they are deemed to have passed the test, though the government can impose a special rule for citizens of some accession states, such as accession worker card for Bulgarians and Romanians.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> I can't really see how they can be denied healthcare . The requirements are that you have returned to the Uk to find work & are staying permanently. You are entitled even if you aren't as long as you have lived in the UK in excess of 10 years at some time in the past.


My understanding is that anyone returning is entitled to free emergency treatment and certain other urgent things straight away, but not operations etc.

Presumably if you are on a state pension you can apply for pension credits and get housing benefit that way? A couple I know have done that.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Joppa said:


> As for entitlement to housing benefit and income support (among other things), some applicants have to pass the* habitual residence test*. There are no clear cut rules about who should be subject to this test and who aren't, but generally it's applied to anyone who has lived abroad within 2 years of applying for benefit. Nor are there clear criteria for passing the test. The crux of the test is about where your 'centre of interest' is - is it UK or elsewhere? Key factors comprise length, continuity and general nature of actual residence, but intentions are also considered. You may have more than one centre of interest, for example, if you work in UK during the week and stay with your family abroad each weekend. Each application is considered on its merit, and the test is usually administered by the local authority, often on behalf of DWP. The test applies equally to British citizens and other EEA citizens, though if the latter are exercising treaty rights in UK, they are deemed to have passed the test, though the government can impose a special rule for citizens of some accession states, such as accession worker card for Bulgarians and Romanians.


So let me see if I have got this right, we have a test which people may or may not have to take with no defined pass standard. It also contains variable factors for which an arbitrary decision can be made. Better still if a group who are not British citizens apply they can automatically pass.

It's wonderful, you couldn't make story up like this if you tried, it's better than a Harry Potter book. I'm glad I'm staying here! I hope anybody thinking of doing this is reading this thread and thinking twice!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> [/B]
> 
> Oh very droll LOL
> Although it may not have come across I really don't have any sympathy for what they have done but then again I hate to see people in a mess for whatever reason hence this post to warn others.
> Got to ask, why the 'downer' on the daily mail. Personally I prefer the Telegraph but you seem to really deride the Mail.



I have sympathy for people who are down on their luck -well,some of them...But then many are the architects of their own misfortune.
The Mail...it's a nasty little rag which prints half-truths and sensationalist stories which often have a racist tinge.
It prints stories relating to immigrants on welfare, benefit cheats, alleged instances of 'pc gone mad' and so on which on investigation turn out to have the faintest basis of truth.
It also prints op-ed pieces by the increasingly unhinged Melanie Philips, for whom in her Observer days I had much respect.
I wasted £5 on one of her books, 'Londonistan', which reads like a sub-Julius Streicher rant in reverse against Muslims and the Arab world in general. I e-mailed her about some of her more ludicrous claims and received a pathetically insulting reply which I wish I'd kept.
In the thirties of the last century the Mail via its Rothermere owners were staunch supporters of Hitler and Mussolini.
That may have been a long time ago but shame lingers and taints.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> So let me see if I have got this right, we have a test which people may or may not have to take with no defined pass standard. It also contains variable factors for which an arbitrary decision can be made. Better still if a group who are not British citizens apply they can automatically pass.
> 
> It's wonderful, you couldn't make story up like this if you tried, it's better than a Harry Potter book. I'm glad I'm staying here! I hope anybody thinking of doing this is reading this thread and thinking twice!


The decisions can be appealed against. Each case is determined according to its own circumstances and rightly so.
You know that EU citizens can apply for these benefits on an equal footing (thanks to Maggie T.) Just as you can apply for them in Spain or any other EU country if you fit the criteria.
So...where's the story


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> People we have known for about 4 years arrived near us about 5 years ago. Not really one of the best planned moves as they apparently borrowed money to do it and there was no thought for the future. During that 4 years they just about got the hang of ordering a cup of coffee (ok slight exaggeration but close). He couldn't get work and the odd jobs he did as builder tended to go wrong.....
> 
> 10 weeks ago they announced to us that they were returning to the UK where he could sign on, his wife get medical treatment, get free housing and benefits. We warned them that it might not be that simple but, hey what did we know.
> 
> ...


Definitely something people should be thinking about when planning what to do and when.
Problem is, a lot of the people, (not all but nevertheless a lot), who are in this situation are people who haven't planned...


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> The decisions can be appealed against. Each case is determined according to its own circumstances and rightly so.
> You know that EU citizens can apply for these benefits on an equal footing (thanks to Maggie T.) Just as you can apply for them in Spain or any other EU country if you fit the criteria.
> So...where's the story


Sorry, my warped sense of humour, make a set of rules, set up a test and then make everything arbitrary, yep, still seems like good plan


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> Sorry, my warped sense of humour, make a set of rules, set up a test and then make everything arbitrary, yep, still seems like good plan


It's called 'wiggle room'...(I believe)
But seriously, the degree of arbitrariness is usually set to a certain limit....
I'm digging a hole, aren't I???
Actually, I'm in a real-life scenario resembling this with a disciplinary situation regarding an employee....
Finding reasons not to do the 'nasty' thing we should do....
Guess I'm mellowing in my old age.


----------



## Manin_bcn (Jun 18, 2011)

Who on earth would want to move back to the UK. Britain is not so Great, anymore!

I'm here for keeps!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Manin_bcn said:


> Who on earth would want to move back to the UK. Britain is not so Great, anymore!
> 
> I'm here for keeps!


It does seem like that, but a lot of people never feel quite at home in a foreign country and are quite fearful of growing old or becoming ill here. Also they miss their families, especially if they have young grandchildren.

I'm guessing you haven't got anywhere near that stage!


----------



## Manin_bcn (Jun 18, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> It does seem like that, but a lot of people never feel quite at home in a foreign country and are quite fearful of growing old or becoming ill here. Also they miss their families, especially if they have young grandchildren.
> 
> I'm guessing you haven't got anywhere near that stage!


... well apart from missing family (whom I now see regularly) I kinda miss the familiarity if you know what I mean.

But, I'm happy here... intend staying ... will take Spanish citizenship (not sure how to go about that yet) .... viva Espana!! Ha


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Helen and I are here for keeps as well. We still see our son and grandson but they have their own lives now. With Skype and emails contact isn't really difficult is it.
However if the intention is to find a place where you can get hand outs from the state then I guess I can see the point in going to the UK, which was if course the start of this thread.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> Helen and I are here for keeps as well. We still see our son and grandson but they have their own lives now. With Skype and emails contact isn't really difficult is it.
> However if the intention is to find a place where you can get hand outs from the state then I guess I can see the point in going to the UK, which was if course the start of this thread.


Except that as you pointed out, that is no longer necessarily the case ...


----------



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Unfortunately sometimes we cannot plan, avoid what is round the corner. 
Many OAP's who came here with a their UK pension are now founding it difficult to manage. But it isn't just the OAP's is it, many families who came here with the intention of starting a new life have found themselves deep in the mire. Unemployment is at a record high, Here in Tortosa it stands at 42%. Selling your home is nigh on impossible for anything like the price you paid (or so it seems), food/fuel prices are going up with each month. The idylic life we all once had is slowly being eroded through no fault of our own, but rather some fat banker and his friends who started this crisis which unfortunately has now has taken over the whole world or so it seems.
Is it any wonder when faced with going hungry etc, going home to the UK seems like a great idea.
Unfortunately when you leave the UK behind they are not too keen on letting you back in, at least not if you want/need to claim benefits etc.
Whilst some folk have no sympathy I for one do, there but for the grace of god as they say nearly went I. Thankfully we now have a small pension which pays our mortgage and keeps body and soul together otherwise my family and I might have been standing in some queue in the UK asking for help, but which would have been refused.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*There's sympathy and sympathy*



JoCatalunya said:


> Unfortunately sometimes we cannot plan, avoid what is round the corner.
> Many OAP's who came here with a their UK pension are now founding it difficult to manage. But it isn't just the OAP's is it, many families who came here with the intention of starting a new life have found themselves deep in the mire. Unemployment is at a record high, Here in Tortosa it stands at 42%. Selling your home is nigh on impossible for anything like the price you paid (or so it seems), food/fuel prices are going up with each month. The idylic life we all once had is slowly being eroded through no fault of our own, but rather some fat banker and his friends who started this crisis which unfortunately has now has taken over the whole world or so it seems.
> Is it any wonder when faced with going hungry etc, going home to the UK seems like a great idea.
> Unfortunately when you leave the UK behind they are not too keen on letting you back in, at least not if you want/need to claim benefits etc.
> Whilst some folk have no sympathy I for one do, there but for the grace of god as they say nearly went I. Thankfully we now have a small pension which pays our mortgage and keeps body and soul together otherwise my family and I might have been standing in some queue in the UK asking for help, but which would have been refused.


Where people have really tried, planned what they were going to do and it has gone wrong for whatever reason I have the deepest sympathy for them. As you say we are all feeling the pinch and it could yet go wrong for many of us, BUT
Where there has clearly been no plan, no thought for future and a singular lack of any real attempt to deal with situation rather than running back to the UK screaming for help i'm afraid my sympathy runs out.


----------



## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

This is a nice, sobering thread.

I've just been wondering though, how many people on this thread are below their 30s? I mostly keep reading about OAPs and families moving over but I plan jetting over in my mid twenties. It makes me feel like the odd one out, but at least I still have time to fix any mistakes I might make (if, I make any).


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Sirtravelot said:


> This is a nice, sobering thread.
> 
> I've just been wondering though, how many people on this thread are below their 30s? I mostly keep reading about OAPs and families moving over but I plan jetting over in my mid twenties. It makes me feel like the odd one out, but at least I still have time to fix any mistakes I might make (if, I make any).


I wonder if sobering means depressing LOL
Anyway neither my OH or I are OAP's, we have a few years to go before that happens, unfortunately only 5 for me and 10 for her (actually I think it is probably 15 now or will be) You are right though, the vast majority of people over here are over retirement age. However that is slowly changing and we are seeing the age drop to early fifties where people have taken early retirement.

Good for you coming over in your twenties, you will have a great time and I wish you well. I wish I had! We came over when My OH was 40 and I was 50 and have never regretted it!


----------



## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> This is a nice, sobering thread.
> 
> I've just been wondering though, how many people on this thread are below their 30s? I mostly keep reading about OAPs and families moving over but I plan jetting over in my mid twenties. It makes me feel like the odd one out, but at least I still have time to fix any mistakes I might make (if, I make any).


Most seem to be older around here  With 31 I count myself to the younger group still  I came to Spain at 28. I think it often is a bit easier for younger and/or unbound people to make a big step like moving to another country. Families with kids have so much more to consider. And the (ns)OAPs often have family ties back home to consider too.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Sirtravelot said:


> This is a nice, sobering thread.
> 
> I've just been wondering though, how many people on this thread are below their 30s? I mostly keep reading about OAPs and families moving over but I plan jetting over in my mid twenties. It makes me feel like the odd one out, but at least I still have time to fix any mistakes I might make (if, I make any).


There are lots of young brits around!! They, like you probably, come on the forum to find out all they can. Once in Spain they go off and do what they've gotta do I guess. Maybe they cant afford internet access ????, altho I suspect its cos there is much more to do. But for you, nows the time to do it. No ties, responsibilities or commitments! Go for it!

Us "oldies" tend to stay with the forum more cos we cant get out and about as much as we used to  lol!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> There are lots of young brits around!! They, like you probably, come on the forum to find out all they can. Once in Spain they go off and do what they've gotta do I guess. _Maybe they cant afford internet access_ ????, altho I suspect its cos there is much more to do. But for you, nows the time to do it. No ties, responsibilities or commitments! Go for it!
> 
> Us "oldies" tend to stay with the forum more cos we cant get out and about as much as we used to  lol!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I expect they all have it on their phones but their preferred means of communication for chat are Facebook, Twitter and tuenti rather than fuddy-duddy old forums like this.

When you are younger you are more flexible about where you live and how you earn a living. You don't tend to make long term plans; you live for the moment. You have less stuff, you spend less time at home so it doesn't matter if your accommodation isn´t great as long as it's in the right place.

Our needs change as we get older. In my twenties I could move house in a taxi with my cat on my lap, or get a one-way ferry ticket to France with a rucksack and guitar not knowing where I would end up that night. Those were the days! Sigh ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JoCatalunya said:


> Unfortunately sometimes we cannot plan, avoid what is round the corner.
> Many OAP's who came here with a their UK pension are now founding it difficult to manage. But it isn't just the OAP's is it, many families who came here with the intention of starting a new life have found themselves deep in the mire. Unemployment is at a record high, Here in Tortosa it stands at 42%. Selling your home is nigh on impossible for anything like the price you paid (or so it seems), food/fuel prices are going up with each month. The idylic life we all once had is slowly being eroded through no fault of our own, but rather some fat banker and his friends who started this crisis which unfortunately has now has taken over the whole world or so it seems.
> Is it any wonder when faced with going hungry etc, going home to the UK seems like a great idea.
> Unfortunately when you leave the UK behind they are not too keen on letting you back in, at least not if you want/need to claim benefits etc.
> Whilst some folk have no sympathy I for one do, there but for the grace of god as they say nearly went I. Thankfully we now have a small pension which pays our mortgage and keeps body and soul together otherwise my family and I might have been standing in some queue in the UK asking for help, but which would have been refused.



This takes us right back to what some refer to as the 'nanny state', doesn't it??
Some folk deplore the welfare state ....until they need it themselves. You leave the UK for an 'idyllic' life, you enjoy it for a few years....then the s*** hits the fan. Dream becomes nightmare. But life is unpredictable and seems unfair to those hit by misfortune. Some see help as their entitlement.
It's like investors who object to paying tax on profits but expect state help when the market is down. A prime example being the banks, of course.....
Another example:shopkeepers who promote free enterprise but complain when someone sets up in competition.
When we take decisions about our future we shouldn't ignore the element of risk.
I say 'risk' not 'gamble'.
When our risk/gamble lands us in trouble, some of us expect help from....the state.
It's not surprising that there is scant sympathy in the UK for bailing out those who spent time on the sunny beaches of Spain only to find their dream turned into a nightmare.
When we planned to move here the £/euro rate was at £1==1.25 euros. 
e did our calculations at a £1/1 euro parity. We learnt our lessons after seeing our £ plummet by a third against the Czech koruna.
Almost the day we arrived the £ and euro were almost at parity....
Personally, if things went wrong here, no way would I look to the state for help.
We planned our 'exit strategy' in advance.
Before anyone leaps in, that's not being 'smug'. It's being sensible.
An interesting question, isn't it: who is truly deserving of state support in times of trouble?
Remembering of course that this support comes from taxpayers at home and abroad....


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*The crux*



mrypg9 said:


> This takes us right back to what some refer to as the 'nanny state', doesn't it??
> Some folk deplore the welfare state ....until they need it themselves. You leave the UK for an 'idyllic' life, you enjoy it for a few years....then the s*** hits the fan. Dream becomes nightmare. But life is unpredictable and seems unfair to those hit by misfortune. Some see help as their entitlement.
> It's like investors who object to paying tax on profits but expect state help when the market is down. A prime example being the banks, of course.....
> Another example:shopkeepers who promote free enterprise but complain when someone sets up in competition.
> ...


Now of course, irrespective of anything else, these two statements are the key to the whole thing. What goes with potential, hindsight, if only we had it.
This is not the thread to go on about the 'nanny state' again but too many people expect to be bailed out when it all goes wrong. In many cases lack of foresight is to blame and why should the state step in. Like you we came out here and actually, on the day of the transfer, got an outstanding 1.75 exchange rate. However, again like you, we worked on a 1:1 for survival.....and it ain't far off it.

I am all for doing it while you are young, go for it, you will have time to adjust, time to correct the mistake you will make, you will learn the language easier. It's all in your favour! I am actually really jealous!


----------



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

There are some folk I admit who came over here with no idea of what they were going to do if things went toes up. I am sure many folk on this forum had plans set in place, I know we did.
Fact is when we first came here my husband worked for a company who paid him quite handsomely for what he did, he then left that company to work for another who offered him even more money (for less work) and our plans altered accordingly to encompass paying off the mortgage in 2 years and have a tidy sum stashed in a bank the following year. At that point we would decide if my hubby would retire or keep on working. He already had a pension from the first company coming in, so in theory if he chose to stop work, once we no longer had a mortgage as long as the cost of living didnt hit the roof and go beyond we should be okay.
Then he had an accident. 
Ah you say he should have planned for that, insurance is a wise thing to have. 
My response is, he had it, through his company. A very tidy sum of insurance, which they refuse to pay out because of some loop hole no one knew about save them. Trust me, we went through the documents with a fine tooth comb, but they have pulled a set of perameters set out by some body or other from 2008 which says they don't have to pay out . 
How can one plan for that I ask? 
So you see, no matter how set out your plans are, how solid a foundation you think you are stood upon, sometimes your world comes crashing down and you are left up the creek without a paddle.


----------



## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't like the Daily Mail either. It's a rotten newspaper. I have caught it out more than once telling lies - things I know with utter certainty to be untrue. One of their fabrications involved 'quoting' the exact reverse of something said by a Falklands War casualty. 

There are worse newspapers but only worse by degree of badness.


----------



## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Come on people 

So a few Brits return home (in the scale of things its a few) because things have not panned out & a great many of them have paid into the system over the years by working, but not taken anything out as the facts are that most do not (well that used to be the case)

For donkeys years immigrants have been entering the UK and scamming the system (yes it may have changed a little now) 
Have you any ID Mr Economic Migrant (no I lost it)
How old are you Mr EM (??? now what did our people say, ah! 55 years sir, that means I will get a State Pension 10 years earlier as I am only 45 if I can get in)
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

Yes of course there are many Brits who also scam the system & the pikeys have taken this to an art form, so a few ex-pats are but a drop in the ocean (IMO)


----------



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

My hubby paid into the system for years and years, he fought in 3 wars for his country and yet when we were in need we were told to go away, we had no rights, no entitlement. 

As for the Daily Mail. Well if you don't like it, don't read it. Having worked for the Press Association in my past I can tell you that they are no worse, no better than many other papers. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*This is the way it is not something I agree with*



JoCatalunya said:


> My hubby paid into the system for years and years, he fought in 3 wars for his country and yet when we were in need we were told to go away, we had no rights, no entitlement.
> 
> As for the Daily Mail. Well if you don't like it, don't read it. Having worked for the Press Association in my past I can tell you that they are no worse, no better than many other papers. But that is just my opinion.


As has been pointed out to me the money paid in tax and NI today goes out to pay the bills today ( and the debts of yesterday). This means that those of us, inc me, who feel that we have contributed all our lives into the system actually have nothing 'invested' so are not entitled to anything. It is those who are working now and paying into the system who are paying the pensions. Mind you I am still paying tax on my pension in the UK but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

As for the Daily Mail, A cr#p paper in my opinion but that us about it, probably no better or worse than any of the other rags. They all have their own agendas.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Come on people
> 
> So a few Brits return home (in the scale of things its a few) because things have not panned out & a great many of them have paid into the system over the years by working, but not taken anything out as the facts are that most do not (well that used to be the case)
> 
> ...


Your post is spoilt by your derogatory language...'pikeys' is not acceptable in decent discourse.
That has nothing to do with so-called 'political correctness' and everything to do with common courtesy.
I would be interested to see what proof you have for your claims.
Yes, migrants cheat the system, though not to the extent that you and The Daily Mail claim.
Yes, travellers claim rights they have no entitlement to...Dale Farm being a current example. The sooner that lot are moved on the better.
I wonder just how conversant you are with the problems caused by travellers or the complexities of the British benefit system.....I have had first-hand experience of both, in getting travellers removed from unauthorised sites as a Councillor and in doing casework for constituents. They are a nuisance and cause much harassment and expense to residents and local authorities to whom they contribute nothing.
Citing these instances then admitting that Brits who cheat are 'a drop in the ocean' is not very helpful, though.
The amount of benefit fraud by sleazy Brits in Spain is more than a drop in the ocean, I'm afraid. Add to that the criminal element for whom Spain was a welcome refuge and for far too many still is. Plenty of evidence of that in the English-language press. But only a fool or someone with an 'agenda' would tar all British immigrants as undesireables.
It is pointless to compare sleaze and criminality. The substance of the OP's original contribution boils down to this: when should the British taxpayer subsidise the misfortune of British citizens?
As someone who has contributed hugely via taxation over the years both as an individual and business owner I am willingly to help anyone who is in difficulties because of unforeseen events beyond their control and not of their making, directly or indirectly.
That willingness does not however extend to the foolish, the improvident, the fraudster or the chancer.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> As has been pointed out to me the money paid in tax and NI today goes out to pay the bills today ( and the debts of yesterday). This means that those of us, inc me, who feel that we have contributed all our lives into the system actually have nothing 'invested' so are not entitled to anything. It is those who are working now and paying into the system who are paying the pensions. Mind you I am still paying tax on my pension in the UK but that doesn't seem to make any difference.
> 
> As for the Daily Mail, A cr#p paper in my opinion but that us about it, probably no better or worse than any of the other rags. They all have their own agendas.


You are referring of course to Government and local authority pensions?
Could you clarify what you mean when you say that those who have contributed all their lives aren't entitled to anything?
Of course you are entitled to Universal Benefits or means-tested benefits depending on your income.
The first you receive wherever you reside.
Some of the latter are determined by residence qualifications and rightly so imo.
And if your post-retirement income is invested in private provision you can reside in Outer Mongolia and receive it......an option worth considering bearing in mind the current economic problems in the western world.
As for the Mail....what distinguishes it from 'quality' papers is its sheer get-down-in -the-gutter appeal to the basest instincts. It is obsessed with immigrants, the sex lives of celebrities, the evils o0f Gordon Brown and , for some strange unfathomable reason, lesbians.
It exists to terrify the lower middle-classes and purveys a kind of gentle sado-masochistic pornography. Fear with the toast and cornflakes in Acacia Avenue, Cheam....
It seems there is only one half-way decent reliable paper, the Independent.
The Guardian is so far up its own backside these days and caters for the Islington Set of lefties, just as the Telegraph is the house-journal of the Notting Hill metrosexual right.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> You are referring of course to Government and local authority pensions?
> Could you clarify what you mean when you say that those who have contributed all their lives aren't entitled to anything?
> Of course you are entitled to Universal Benefits or means-tested benefits depending on your income.
> The first you receive wherever you reside.
> ...


Well I guess not entitled to anything is not entirely accurate. Not entitled to anything immediately is more accurate. I am aware of two people on 'services' pension but below retirement age so still paying tax in the UK who have been refused immediate benefit and will have to wait six months to qualify or get their appeal upheld.
As for the papers I would put the independent first and Telegraph second but the Telegraph has an excellent IPad app so that is the one I read.I don't think I am a Notting Hill metrosexual but as I am not quite sure what one of them is I suppose I might be, always nice to be in a group isn't it.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> .
> .I don't think I am a Notting Hill metrosexual but as I am not quite sure what one of them is I suppose I might be, always nice to be in a group isn't it.


Metrosexual usually applies to a smart, trendy, immaculately groomed, intelligent, sensitive,culturally aware heterosexual man.....most of which attributes are characteristic of many professional gay men in London, Manchester and other such cities but are allegedly much valued in straight men by women.
I don't require pgotographic evidence but I'm sure you fit that description..


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> .
> .I don't think I am a Notting Hill metrosexual but as I am not quite sure what one of them is I suppose I might be, always nice to be in a group isn't it.


Metrosexual usually applies to a smart, trendy, immaculately groomed, intelligent, sensitive,culturally aware man.....most of which attributes are said to be characteristic of many professional gay men in London, Manchester and other such cities but are allegedly much valued in straight men by women.
I don't require photographic evidence but I'm sure you fit that description..


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Metrosexual usually applies to a *smart, trendy, immaculately groomed, intelligent, sensitive,culturally aware heterosexual man*.....most of which attributes are characteristic of many professional gay men in London, Manchester and other such cities but are allegedly much valued in straight men by women.
> I don't require pgotographic evidence but I'm sure you fit that description..


Wow how perceptive you are, got it one but forgot modest..........but why did my OH laugh?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> Wow how perceptive you are, got it one but forgot modest..........but why did my OH laugh?



She laughed out of sheer happiness at having such a partner.....


----------



## Stellen (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm amazed at the comments about the Daily Mail by people who claim not to read it, indeed loathe it.

Are these people psychic to know what's in it within opening it??? Or do they read it and pretend they don't?


----------



## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Stellen said:


> I'm amazed at the comments about the Daily Mail by people who claim not to read it, indeed loathe it.
> 
> Are these people psychic to know what's in it within opening it??? Or do they read it and pretend they don't?


The Daily Mail is full of crap and a prime example for bad journalism. Saying all this I really enjoy reading it, it's good entertainment


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Stellen said:


> I'm amazed at the comments about the Daily Mail by people who claim not to read it, indeed loathe it.
> 
> Are these people psychic to know what's in it within opening it??? Or do they read it and pretend they don't?


I read it for research. 

The website format is also superb.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stellen said:


> I'm amazed at the comments about the Daily Mail by people who claim not to read it, indeed loathe it.
> 
> Are these people psychic to know what's in it within opening it??? Or do they read it and pretend they don't?


I read it every day - online.
I annoint myself with garlic and make the sign of the cross three times before clicking on the site, though.
Because you're right....you can't complain or criticise something you don't know about.
So I look carefully for 'stories' which are so beefed up they bear no resemblance to reality; I complain to the PCC when I read something I think might offend the Code of Conduct; I post ripostes to some of the more crass and bigoted 'readers' comments'. It passes the time.
I have referred to its Hitler-supporting past: the overall editorial tone is of course these days in no way fascist, just incredibly prejudiced and economical avec la verite.
I don't like The Guardian either but for obviously different reasons. I find it smug and bourgeois.
I do agree with the poster who praised The Telegraph. At least it's honest in its stance and its reportage is decent, unlike that of The Maul.
I like Conservative Home and subscribe to its daily mailing. You know where it stands and the discussion is good and rooted in the world as it is. Plenty to disagree with - and plenty to test your opinions against.


----------

