# Post-university prospects



## tomcm

Hi everyone,

I am close to finishing university now, just about to complete a business degree in finance and banking. I have always wanted to live in Italy because its such a beautiful country and i love it there, however i am unsure of the economic climate in Milan, where i would be interested in going to if possible. I have heard the North in general is fine right now economically, but like i said i really cant be 100% sure my sources are correct. I can also speak Italian fluently so i guess that would be a big plus as well. Can you share any knowledge of opportunities in Milan in banking and finance, and/or elaborate on my question...? I might add that a reason for moving to Italy for x amount of time is that i have family in Milan and the reasons stated above, i love it there. 

Thanks.


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## BBCWatcher

Milan's unemployment rate is currently around 8% compared to the national rate of a bit over 11%. Milan's economy has been relatively flat for about half a decade after suffering a decline. By Italian standards Milan is doing pretty well. By Australian standards it's pretty awful.

Theory and statistics aside, do you already have work permission of some sort?


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## tomcm

No i have no working permission as of yet, as i have not applied for any internships or jobs.


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## tomcm

Australia's unemployment rate is around 6%, so not far off from Milan's unemployment rate.


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## BBCWatcher

Not exactly a fair comparison, though. You'd look at Sydney's unemployment rate for a more reasonable comparison, and Sydney's rate is well below the Australian national average.

Are you age 30 or lower, by any chance? If so, there's a working holiday visa available. The Italian embassy in Canberra provides these details. It's not a _terrific_ visa for work since you're only allowed a total of 6 months of work and no more than 3 months with any single employer. But it's better than none.


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## tomcm

I am under 30 yes, unemployment in Sydney is very close to 5%. Sydney is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live, not far from Zürich actually.


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## NickZ

No point looking at over all unemployment rates.

Youth unemployment is almost 40%. If you include those that have dropped out of the work force the total number is likely over 70%. If you use a standard like the US U6 it's even higher. 

If that doesn't sound bad enough.

What do you mean by bank work? My understanding is the entry level salary for most bank workers is less then €1500 a month. Assuming you'd be lucky to find a job. Italy is over branched and over banked. Many larger banks are closing branches. Smaller banks are merging. 

But the chances of getting hired ? You can try


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## BBCWatcher

If NickZ hadn't jumped in, I would have.  Let's just stipulate that the employment environment in Sydney is currently far better than in Milan. (The cost of living is lower in Sri Lanka, too. But so are incomes, too.)

Better income generation and wealth accumulation aren't realistic goals for you in Milan, in my (our?) view, but do you have other goals in mind?


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## tomcm

Well my other plan if Milan wasn't possible, would be to try and go to Dubai. Dubai has some amazing benefits, no income-tax, international hub, great weather, beaches, desert. I Also heard they have a big expat community there and that it is an exiting city.


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## tomcm

If i could go to Germany or Switzerland that would be more ideal than Dubai for me, long term. So tell me more about these two countries.

Thanks


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## BBCWatcher

tomcm said:


> I Also heard they have a big expat community there and that it is an exiting city.


I must admit I laughed. Yes, many people do think of Dubai as an _*exiting*_ city, i.e. a place to exit. 

Seriously, Dubai is fine. Many places are fine and lovely, including many places in Australia. Home is where you make it, and I think I'd be happy living in scores of countries.

So you're just restless with no specific goals in mind? Not that there's anything wrong with that. What's appealing to you about Switzerland and Germany? Have you visited those countries yet?


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## Bevdeforges

tomcm said:


> If i could go to Germany or Switzerland that would be more ideal than Dubai for me, long term. So tell me more about these two countries.
> 
> Thanks


How well do you speak German? OK, in Switzerland you can get away with French or Italian instead. But in any event, a big consideration is going to be what languages you speak. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## tomcm

im young, i want to go to different countries with my career! I have been to both Germany and Suisse. I love Germany because of the landscape in Bavaria, the people, the cities... Suisse is more boring but the money is supposed to be good there because of the low taxes. I know people who work in both countries for multi-national banking companies and they only speak English.


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## accbgb

tomcm said:


> Well my other plan if Milan wasn't possible, would be to try and go to Dubai. Dubai has some amazing benefits, no income-tax, international hub, great weather, beaches, desert. I Also heard they have a big expat community there and that it is an exiting city.


Dubai? Don't get caught holding your girlfriend's (or, boyfriend's as the case may be) hand in public.

No kissing, no sex, no photos - how to avoid arrest in Dubai

Honestly, why would any non-Muslim person want to live in a place like Dubai?

[edit]

Actually, let me re-phrase that: Why would anyone who grew up in a relatively free and democratic society want to live in a place like Dubai?


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## BBCWatcher

"There is no perfect country," certainly not for everyone. Isn't it nice there are about 200 of them? Many of them (including Australia) have a wide variety of experiences available within their borders.


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## tomcm

Depends on the individual, not the society they grew up in.


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## tomcm

I dont want to live in Australia my entire life!!! I want a bit of an adventure in life. I dont think any country is a "utopia". Ive been to Italy/Suisse/Germany and i know i would like it better in those countries, nothing wrong with having a personal preference on where you want to live.


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## BBCWatcher

I don't think I argued otherwise.

OK, so start with the immigration issues. What's the plan?


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## tomcm

The rough plan is to find a finance position at a good German SME (small/medium enterprise or firm that has 500 or less employees and makes less than 50m euro's per annum) which make up at least over 60% of the German economy i think. These companies have a good work ethic and their employees are loyal because the employers look after them, and its more possible to rise to a higher position in these firms. My long-term goal is to pursue this career and then after gaining enough skills, knowledge and experience, possibly start my own SME in a particular sector that i have knowledge on, either by myself or with others in Germany. This is a rough ambition i have. SME in Germany are very successful, and make up most of the German economy like i said.


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## BBCWatcher

OK, so how do you get a German visa (or EU/EEA status) to pull that off? It's not necessarily impossible, but that's a threshold question.


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## tomcm

Find an employer who is willing to employ me, so they can give me a work visa?


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## Bevdeforges

tomcm said:


> Find an employer who is willing to employ me, so they can give me a work visa?


This may be the "catch" in your plans. While it's possible to find an "English speaking job" in certain fields, these are mostly (if not exclusively) with large "international" companies. Getting the appropriate work authorizations for a foreigner may very well be outside the competence of an SME - particularly in Germany, where many of the better SMEs are still family held and run. They still have to convince the authorities that they have tried and failed to find an equally qualified candidate for the job in Germany or elsewhere within the EU before they can get work authorization to be able to sponsor a visa.

But, in any event, the smaller the company, the more likely they will expect you to have the language. Sure, they may need people with good to excellent English, but for day to day use, they'll expect you to speak their language. 

Just as an aside, the best job I had was for a small plant in Germany that was owned by a large American parent company. I was almost the only person in the plant to speak English (certainly the only native speaker). But I never would have gotten the job if I hadn't had the German (and passed an interview in German with the plant manager, who spoke only nominal English).
Cheers,
Bev


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## tomcm

Thanks Bev,

To solve this issue i am going travelling in Germany for a year to take a break after i graduate, so i will be in Germany (as i have friends there), also taking German language classes for 12-18 months, I am only 22 so i guess its ok. Hopefully by then i will be fluent enough in German to use on a day-to-day basis in a workplace environment. Do you think 12-18 months of full immersion in the country and language classes should be enough time?

Thanks


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## Bevdeforges

That's actually a pretty good plan. No one can tell you how much you can or can't learn of a language in 12 to 18 months, but if you're there in situ for that time, you'll see just how "comfortable" you feel with the language and you can scope out the job postings as you go. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Germany also has a working holiday visa you could investigate. Moreover, there's a fairly rare but possible continuation of work and stay permission beyond the working holiday visa if the German government is persuaded you have unique skills to offer.


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## tomcm

I always thought if i could speak German and had the right qualifications and skills to offer i could immigrate to Germany without much of a hassle. Its not like i would go there with no language skills or anything and expect to be handed a career.


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## BBCWatcher

Your plan is a lot more likely to work if your prospective employer has nothing or little extra to do to hire you. A working holiday visa gets that job done fairly well. Otherwise you lose against every other similarly situated 22 year old recent graduate who happens to have an EU or EEA country's citizenship. And there are a lot more of them than you.

Would you want to drive 20 miles to buy a hamburger when the same hamburger is available next door?


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## tomcm

So if i have a working holiday visa while i am applying for jobs this will give me an equal opportunity when applying?


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## BBCWatcher

tomcm said:


> So if i have a working holiday visa while i am applying for jobs this will give me an equal opportunity when applying?


"Less unequal" is a better way to put it. Your prospective employer will still find you somewhat less attractive because you'll have an expiration date (the expiration date of your 12 month working holiday visa), whereas an otherwise equally talented applicant holding any EU/EEA passport can be kept on past 12 months without the employer needing to do anything bureaucratic, and with no risk of government rejection. But you do the best you can do, and a working holiday visa might be the best you can do.


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