# Camps not guilty (Valencian Corruption)



## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

Camps and Costa found not guilty of corruption by Gürtel jury · ELPAÍS.com in English

I'm not sure I buy it. 

What do you all think, especially those of you living in Valencia?


----------



## gill556 (Dec 23, 2010)

halydia said:


> Camps and Costa found not guilty of corruption by Gürtel jury · ELPAÍS.com in English
> 
> I'm not sure I buy it.
> 
> What do you all think, especially those of you living in Valencia?


I do know for a fact that the opposition take out denuncias like confetti in the hope that some of it will stick. I really can't believe in this area you are frightened to cough in case you get denounced for making a noise.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> Camps and Costa found not guilty of corruption by Gürtel jury · ELPAÍS.com in English
> 
> I'm not sure I buy it.
> 
> What do you all think, especially those of you living in Valencia?


I haven't followed it that closely, but more than them being proved innocent, I think it's more a case of them not being proved guilty.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I haven't followed it that closely, but more than them being proved innocent, I think it's more a case of them not being proved guilty.


I haven't followed it as closely as I maybe should have, but I think there's a lot in what you say


not so much innocent, as not enough proof for a guilty verdict


----------



## gill556 (Dec 23, 2010)

unfortunately this is exactly what the opposition intended that even though he has been proved innocent there are always some who will never believe it as they think "no smoke without fire". Good job done by the opposition.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gill556 said:


> unfortunately this is exactly what the opposition intended that even though he has been proved innocent there are always some who will never believe it as they think "no smoke without fire". Good job done by the opposition.


I know what you mean, but even so I follow the "no smoke without fire" lead. One bit I heard was two of them denying there was a relationship between them - that they'd only seen each other a couple of times. Cue recording of conversation of the 2 of them speaking on the phone, full of more than chummy terms, "amigo mio, amigo de mi alma..."
There were obvious lies, and lies that were caught out in court like the one above. There just wasn't enough evidence to convict. Like the El País article says, "There was no evidence that the suits were not paid for" But likewise there wasn't any evidence they were paid for.


----------



## gill556 (Dec 23, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I know what you mean, but even so I follow the "no smoke without fire" lead. One bit I heard was two of them denying there was a relationship between them - that they'd only seen each other a couple of times. Cue recording of conversation of the 2 of them speaking on the phone, full of more than chummy terms, "amigo mio, amigo de mi alma..."
> There were obvious lies, and lies that were caught out in court like the one above. There just wasn't enough evidence to convict. Like the El País article says, "There was no evidence that the suits were not paid for" But likewise there wasn't any evidence they were paid for.


and of course because it was in the newspaper then it must be the truth.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Everyone knows they are guilty but they have the judges in their pockets. 

Just as the Manos Limpias have their dirty hands round Garzón´s throat. 

The Far Right look after their own.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Everyone knows they are guilty but they have the judges in their pockets.
> 
> Just as the Manos Limpias have their dirty hands round Garzón´s throat.
> 
> The Far Right look after their own.


And the Left doesn't Isn't 'solidarity' a Leftist virtue?
As I see it, corruption isn't confined to one Party here or anywhere in the world. 
The former Socialist Mayor of Estepona, Barrientos, is awaiting trial on money-laundering, fraud and general corruption charges. His PSOE successor was merely grossly incompetent.
The IU Alcaldesa in Manilva gave her family members well-paid jobs....
Corruption in Spain closely resembles corruption in the Czech Republic, both formerly repressive regimes, one authoritarian-ultra-Conservative Catholic (not fascist as is often mistakenly believed), the other Socialist.
In both countries there was a total absence of civil society and trust. There was a total absence of democratic accountability. In such an ambiance, corruption, nepotism, under-the-table deals, all kinds of undesirable activities will flourish and be extremely hard to eradicate, human nature being what it is.
Corruption and 'political' crime of all kinds is not the exclusive domain of the 'Far Right'.
It is found everywhere where there is a lack of transparency and accountability.
Not only crimes connected with personal enrichment are shared by both Left and Right. Mass murder is also common to both. When you focus on one side of the political divide you risk opening a can of worms.
I dare say Stalin's henchmen 'took care of their own', just as Franco's did.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gill556 said:


> and of course because it was in the newspaper then it must be the truth.



It was on the radio, newspaper, and tv. 
The trial was filmed for goodness sakes.

You may believe what you want, but _*I*_ don't doubt that they are corrupt as is Jaume Matas, the King's son in law etc


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

PS I also think there's a lot of corruption in UK politics, US politics and everywhere politics. In the UK though it's a different type of corruption though - more serious and more underground, to do with hard drugs, arms ...


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS I also think there's a lot of corruption in UK politics, US politics and everywhere politics. In the UK though it's a different type of corruption though - more serious and more underground, to do with hard drugs, arms ...


In the UK its covered up by propaganda, conspiracy and manipulation of the facts.

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> In the UK its covered up by propaganda, conspiracy and manipulation of the facts.
> 
> Jo xxx


I think here, where corruption is rife, it's a child's game compared to what goes on in other countries. Much of the corruption here is not covered up at all. Everyone knows about it. Nothing or little is done about it, so there's no need for it to go underground. But in the UK and other countries it's a different story, isn't it?


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think here, where corruption is rife, it's a child's game compared to what goes on in other countries. Much of the corruption here is not covered up at all. Everyone knows about it. Nothing or little is done about it, so there's no need for it to go underground. But in the UK and other countries it's a different story, isn't it?


Yes, it's far easier to know what's going on here than in most other countries where it is hidden away & barely gets a mention on some news programmes as many involved own them ! 
So who paid for the suits ? It wasn't me , or the bloke wearing them !


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think here, where corruption is rife, it's a child's game compared to what goes on in other countries. Much of the corruption here is not covered up at all. Everyone knows about it. Nothing or little is done about it, so there's no need for it to go underground. But in the UK and other countries it's a different story, isn't it?



The UK is squeaky clean!!!! Corruption???? Never!!! 

Every now and again they let a little tiny bit out, mainly to hide bigger things and distract us! I like the Spanish way, it treats everyone like adults. In the UK it feels like the government is the "grown up" and the people "wouldnt understand", "mustnt know" so they spoon feed us what they want us to hear and think!


However, corruption isnt good, but how on earth you can stop it............??!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Let's put this into perspective. 
Corruption i.e. getting some kind of gain, usually financial, in return for supplying a service of some kind, is as human as all the other sins and crimes. It's found everywhere where people give in to temptation. It occurs in boardrooms and brothels, council chambers and churches.
It does not belong exclusively to any one group, party, sect, religion or race.
Lying about where you live in the UK to get your child into a 'good'school catchment area is corruption. In Spain, working on the black and knowingly paying someone working for you on the black is corruption. Avoiding tax due is corruption. 
It is however true that whilst corruption in one form or another is ubiquitous and can be said to some degree to oil the wheels of business and political life, there are some states where it is more tolerated and even expected than others. These are states where there is no firm tradition of democracy, transparency or civil society. Spain, the former socialist states and many African and Middle Eastern despotisms fit that description.
In some countries what we Westerners see as corruption is merely good manners - returning a favour done. Turkey is a good example of such a society. 
I dispute the fact that the UK is more corrupt than Spain or for that matter most other countries in the world. In all my years in local government and my involvement, albeit in a small way,in national politics, I heard many rumours of corruption but found no proof.
In a civilised society, absence of proof means 'innocent' or in Scotland 'not proven'.
So no-one on this forum can state WITHOUT DOUBT that Camps or anyone else acquiitted on any charge is guilty.
Imnvho slinging around accusations of corruption with no proof other than intuition is dangerous and damaging to the political system. If it is done on a party-political point-scoring basis that in itself raises questions as to motive. 
The profession of politics should be a noble one. Without politics there would be no governance, no security, no provision of basic services....in short, anarchy. There are enough people ready to pull down politicians on the grounds of simple dislike without throwing other charges around.
Yes,some politicians are greedy, yes they do things they shouldn't, often of a criminal nature. 
But unless we wish to discredit politicians to the point where we prefer a dictatorship.....we should be a little more careful about what we say.
Corruption thrives under dictatorships or in any state whether of the Left or Right where there is no transparency. 
I believe Spain is truly making a start in cleaning up the moral rot left by years of authoritarian government. Credit where credit is due.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> In the UK its covered up by propaganda, conspiracy and manipulation of the facts.
> 
> Jo xxx


Give an example or two...or three...or more.
That's a serious accusation to level.....


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Give an example or two...or three...or more.
> That's a serious accusation to level.....



I cant think of anything thats easy to explain or that springs to mind (in the process of cremating a chicken and veg here LOL) - I can bang on about the way things are presented and what gets priority and the most airtime. Its not always the most important things. The BBC are the worst. Then theres the value of the pound. Its obvious that they're trying to keep it down so everytime it starts to rise, you can guarantee that Mervyns ugly mug will appear, or some damning news on the economy it actually happened a couple of days ago. I knew without a doubt that when the pound hit 1.21 against the euro there woud be some bad news wheeled in and yes it was, all doom and gloom about the GDP, the possibility of the double dip recession, Mervyn with his usual "shock" at how he's never seen things so bad blah, blah..... The pound/euro is now 1.19

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

......Oh I know, the various flu scares we get!! Putting fear in the nation stops them worrying about whats going on! Theres usually a flu scare when there is something the government wants to keep "low key" It is actually a psychological fact that scared people are easier to manipulate

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Let's put this into perspective.
> Corruption i.e. getting some kind of gain, usually financial, in return for supplying a service of some kind, is as human as all the other sins and crimes. It's found everywhere where people give in to temptation. It occurs in boardrooms and brothels, council chambers and churches.
> It does not belong exclusively to any one group, party, sect, religion or race.
> Lying about where you live in the UK to get your child into a 'good'school catchment area is corruption. In Spain, working on the black and knowingly paying someone working for you on the black is corruption. Avoiding tax due is corruption.
> ...


Uhmmm..., can't dispute anything in the first few paragraphs, I don't think any one was going off track in their definition of corruption were they?
Along the same lines, did anyone say corruption was worse in the UK? I do think the crimes commited in the UK are more serious, but not so prevalent. I don't think one is more damaging than the other necessarily. However you have more experience in that world than others on here so I'll have to bow out of the argument.

In juidicial terms if you can't prove someone guilty they are innocent. Unfortunately there are many criminals that have been lucky enough to not be innocent, but that have not been proven guilty. With the Camps/ Gürtell case, of course


> no-one on this forum can state WITHOUT DOUBT that Camps or anyone else acquiitted on any charge is guilty.


 If a judge and jury couldn't how am I, and half the Spanish population , going to? But how ever you look at it some very strange dealings went on, things that up front politicians and business men don't do. Same with the case of José Blanco (PSOE) and the illegal collection of public subsidies (bags of money handed over in a petrol station or something). It's not the way money is handled legally, but will it be proved to be *illegal*? Pobably not.
The trial started today I believe.

I don't think I have to guard my words. If I moved in a circle that involved politicians (1 friend in a party that's not in power, another in the 15M barrios movement doesn't really count I think) perhaps, but as a general moan and groan about society today I think it's valid.

Is Spain really making a stand and facing its out of control corruption? I hope so, but I think a lot of the trials are for show, and the judges, are perhaps not the best...


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And the Left doesn't Isn't 'solidarity' a Leftist virtue?
> As I see it, corruption isn't confined to one Party here or anywhere in the world.
> The former Socialist Mayor of Estepona, Barrientos, is awaiting trial on money-laundering, fraud and general corruption charges. His PSOE successor was merely grossly incompetent.
> The IU Alcaldesa in Manilva gave her family members well-paid jobs....
> ...


All very interesting, if a bit knee-jerk, but it would be more interesting to know just why you think Camos got let off.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I state from the outset that I never followed the trial word by word but it seems to me that if Camps is wearing suits that he never paid for & someone else did , then he has knowingly accepted inducements .
Innocent until proven guilty has, over the years , come to be a hollow phrase . Whilst it was true years ago various changes in laws, now mean that the onus is on you to prove that you weren't doing something rather than the authorities proving you were !


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> All very interesting, if a bit knee-jerk, but it would be more interesting to know just why you think Camos got let off.


I don't know...and neither do you. Very often what seems on the surface doesn't reflect what's underneath. 
Have you read the trial transcript? Can you argue a convincing case for the prosecution? Are you familiar with all the evidence, with witness statements? Can you PROVE that witnesses were lying?
Are you sure you're not focusing on this as a miscarriage of justice because of your political bias?.
I repeat my point: corruption doesn't know political boundaries.
By attacking it as a purely political left/right issue - as your OP did -you lose focus.
It may well be that there was bias in this case. But to leap to conclusions from second-hand knowledge and media reports is imo a very knee-jerk reaction.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> . Whilst it was true years ago various changes in laws, now mean that the onus is on you to prove that you weren't doing something rather than the authorities proving you were !



'Innocent until proven guilty' is the cornerstone of a free society.
The onus should be fairly and squarely on the authorities to PROVE guilt.
Very often they can't because evidence is lacking or clever lawyers are hired.
That poses difficult problems, not only in trials such as the Valencia one but for many criminal cases.
But in order to protect the rights of the truly innocent, that's how it must be. An awful lot of criminals get away sometimes quite literally with murder.
But if one innocent person is wrongly convicted...especially a human rights campaigner or a thorn in the flesh of a right-wing dictatorial government, the outcry is loud and vast.
Any system of justice is as reflects the integrity and efficiency of the system it serves.


----------



## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Are you sure you're not focusing on this as a miscarriage of justice because of your political bias?.
> I repeat my point: corruption doesn't know political boundaries.
> By attacking it as a purely political left/right issue - as your OP did -you lose focus.


Are you using "OP" to refer to the "original poster"? If so, as the "OP," I assure you this was not a politically biased post.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I cant think of anything thats easy to explain or that springs to mind (in the process of cremating a chicken and veg here LOL) - I can bang on about the way things are presented and what gets priority and the most airtime. Its not always the most important things. The BBC are the worst. Then theres the value of the pound. Its obvious that they're trying to keep it down so everytime it starts to rise, you can guarantee that Mervyns ugly mug will appear, or some damning news on the economy it actually happened a couple of days ago. I knew without a doubt that when the pound hit 1.21 against the euro there woud be some bad news wheeled in and yes it was, all doom and gloom about the GDP, the possibility of the double dip recession, Mervyn with his usual "shock" at how he's never seen things so bad blah, blah..... The pound/euro is now 1.19
> 
> Jo xxx


The rise and fall in the £ exchange rate is nothing to do with Mervyn King. It happens because the markets react to the dire economic performance of the UK economy under Osborne's mismanagement.
The prime example of corruption involving the UK is the Saudi-British Aerospace Al-Yamani arms deal in the setting up of which Mark Thatcher played a leading role.
The various bungs and back-handers handed out there involved unbelievable amounts of money.
But when Tony Blair was forced into doing something about this by sheer public outrage the Saudis threatened to transfer the deal to France. That would have meant staggering losses to the British economy in terms of revenue and jobs.
So Blair backed down in the national interest.
You and I would have done the same.
Integrity comes at a price.
British firms dealing with overseas clients particularly in Africa and the Middle East routinely factor 'sweeteners' into their deals. If they didn't the business would go elsewhere, to a less scrupulous country.
The case of Harry 'Give the dog a bung' Redknapp shows that we do make efforts to tackle corruption.
But to repeat: treating it as a political issue is wrong, wrong, wrong.
It's an ethical issue, a problem of human greed and part of some national cultures.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> Are you using "OP" to refer to the "original poster"? If so, as the "OP," I assure you this was not a politically biased post.



No ..it's meant to refer to 'Original Post' not 'Poster'.
I shouldn't have resorted to shorthand.
Sorry.
Although in reply to Alca I did say 'your' OP.


----------



## Guest (Jan 27, 2012)

What Is 'OP'? What Does OP Stand For?
What does OP mean? - OP Definition - Meaning of OP - InternetSlang.com

Either way, I was the author of the original post. I can assure you it was not politically motivated.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> What Is 'OP'? What Does OP Stand For?
> What does OP mean? - OP Definition - Meaning of OP - InternetSlang.com
> 
> Either way, I was the author of the original post. I can assure you it was not politically motivated.


Being politically motivated is not a crime. Imo it should be compulsory...
I'm politically motivated, of course I am. My interest in affairs is 100% politically motivated. Being political doesn't mean 'party political'. It means being interested in the affairs of the polis. Alca is politically motivated from the left as I once was and might be again. 
It's just that at this point in time I see no established Party with a snowball's chance in hell of winning power that I feel I can support.
As anyone reading my posts can see, I am a passionate opponent of neo-conservatism, neo-liberalism whatever you wish to call it and am equally opposed to all political religions whether of left or right.
I like to see myself as a principled pragmatist in the English empirical tradition ......but others probably see me as right-wing because I have no faith in solely statist solutions.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't know...and neither do you. Very often what seems on the surface doesn't reflect what's underneath.
> Have you read the trial transcript? Can you argue a convincing case for the prosecution? Are you familiar with all the evidence, with witness statements? Can you PROVE that witnesses were lying?
> Are you sure you're not focusing on this as a miscarriage of justice because of your political bias?.
> I repeat my point: corruption doesn't know political boundaries.
> ...


I've been following it closely since 2009 when Baltazar Garzón first exposed the Gurtel business network and the extent of its corruption, which involves not just bribes for contracts as in the Camps/Valencia case, but also money laundering and tax evasion (Francisco Correa, head of the Gurtel network, has not made a tax declaration since 1999). This business with the suits is just the tiny tip of the iceberg. 

I'm aware that there are corrupt politicians on all sides and many bent PSOE mayors as well as PP ones have been brought to justice in the last few years. But the sheer scale of the Gurtel case is mindboggling, and they only ever did deals with the PP. The crimes so far brought to light have all involved PP politicians, not just in Valencia but in Madrid and Galicia. 

The PP leadership appears to be in denial, even allowing candidates awaiting trial to stand for election. It's a bit like J Edgar Hoover ignoring the Mafia.

As for Garzón, the far-right groups (Manos Limpias and Falange Española) and the judiciary, there is a good background article in English here: Spain – A Judicial Showdown Begins


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I've been following it closely since 2009 when Baltazar Garzón first exposed the Gurtel business network and the extent of its corruption, which involves not just bribes for contracts as in the Camps/Valencia case, but also money laundering and tax evasion (Francisco Correa, head of the Gurtel network, has not made a tax declaration since 1999). This business with the suits is just the tiny tip of the iceberg.
> 
> I'm aware that there are corrupt politicians on all sides and many bent PSOE mayors as well as PP ones have been brought to justice in the last few years. But the sheer scale of the Gurtel case is mindboggling, and they only ever did deals with the PP. The crimes so far brought to light have all involved PP politicians, not just in Valencia but in Madrid and Galicia.
> 
> ...


No way should anyone accused of or awaiting trial for corruption be allowed to stand for office. That is categorically wrong.
I must admit I haven't looked into the past history of this case so yes, you have more grounds than I for detecting gross irregularities and miscarriage of justice.
Maybe you are right....it is all a fix.
But whilst agreeing with you on that specific issue, I still stand by my main contention which is that corruption is an ethical issue which is deeply rooted in social custom and practice and not limited to one set of political beliefs.
Just as the corrupt practice of working on the black is endemic here so is tax evasion and all kinds of malpractice in the Czech Republic.
I was taken aback one day when our landlord asked me to tell anyone who enquired that I was his wife. He was so gross and ugly that that request in itself was cause for incarceration.
I had wondered why we received post addressed to him in our box.
The reality, we found, was that he and his son owned two large houses between them whilst living in a renovated spacious and elegant eighteenth-century municipal apartment in a prestigious area of central Prague. The fiction was of course that they lived in the houses they rented - he claimed he was separated from his wife.
He was claiming Incapacity Benefit yet did all the heavy gardening and maintenance work.
Between them these two crooks were raking in rents each month equivalent to the yearly salary of an average worker.
This kind of thing was viewed as normal...even seen as showing initiative and entrepreneurship....


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No way should anyone accused of or awaiting trial for corruption be allowed to stand for office. That is categorically wrong.
> I must admit I haven't looked into the past history of this case so yes, you have more grounds than I for detecting gross irregularities and miscarriage of justice.
> Maybe you are right....it is all a fix.


You know Mary, that's probably the most sensible thing you've said so far in this thread.
There are loads of these cases coming up in the courts. There's a wikipedia page dedicated to Spanish corruption cases FGS.
And the vast majority have got off/ will get off scott free because of technicalities, because the crime is "proscrito" (is that a word in English?), or because they are friends with the right people.
No, there is little tangible evidence available to likes of you and I to support this, but just the sheer number of cases over the years and the small number of jail sentences is enough to raise eyebrows.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You know Mary, that's probably the most sensible thing you've said so far in this thread.
> There are loads of these cases coming up in the courts. There's a wikipedia page dedicated to Spanish corruption cases FGS.
> And the vast majority have got off/ will get off scott free because of technicalities, because the crime is "proscrito" (is that a word in English?), or because they are friends with the right people.
> No, there is little tangible evidence available to likes of you and I to support this, but just the sheer number of cases over the years and the small number of jail sentences is enough to raise eyebrows.


If all that is true and I don't doubt it...why has this not been given wider publicity?
Why has it not been brought to the attention of European institutions of justice?
But I maintain that the roots of corruption lie in society.
Do the majority of Spanish people care about this?
Most Czechs didn't. They wanted a share of it.

Now I come to think about it....I was told that some of the candidates on the PSOE list in May's elections were awaiting trial in the Astapa case...I said there must be a mistake as it seemed unlikely that a person accused of corruption would have the brass neck to stand for office, let alone be allowed to.
How naive...


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> If all that is true and I don't doubt it...why has this not been given wider publicity?
> Why has it not been brought to the attention of European institutions of justice?
> But I maintain that the roots of corruption lie in society.
> Do the majority of Spanish people care about this?
> Most Czechs didn't. They wanted a share of it.


Within Spain it has been given publicity in all the media; serious and otherwise and whilst I agree that you can't believe all that you read in the papers, you can't ignore something that you see in El País, El Mundo, Yahoo news and Club de la Comedia. 
It's occasionally reported in the likes of the Guardian, the Telegraph has quite a lot of news about Spain and on occasions there's stuff in Newsweek and Time
I think Spaniards do care about this now. They are fed up of not being able to live their lives due to some F**k up by the town hall or central government. However, as we all know there's always a certain acceptance in society as well.
As for taking all this to Brussels, I don't know. Too risky perhaps because if they start investigating too deeply who knows what they might find?? I don't know.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Within Spain it has been given publicity in all the media; serious and otherwise and whilst I agree that you can't believe all that you read in the papers, you can't ignore something that you see in El País, El Mundo, Yahoo news and Club de la Comedia.
> It's occasionally reported in the likes of the Guardian, the Telegraph has quite a lot of news about Spain and on occasions there's stuff in Newsweek and Time
> I think Spaniards do care about this now. They are fed up of not being able to live their lives due to some F**k up by the town hall or central government. However, as we all know there's always a certain acceptance in society as well.
> As for taking all this to Brussels, I don't know. Too risky perhaps because if they start investigating too deeply who knows what they might find?? I don't know.



There should be an immediate call for a law to prevent persons awaiting trial from standing for public office.
I'd suggest it to my PSOE branch but as I said it's a practice they obviously condone.
Now that is truly frustrating....seeing something so obviously necessary yet seemingly others don't....Perhaps because they have guilty secrets they fear may be revealed?
I'm beginning to wish I hadn't got involved with politics as I have. There is real hatred between PSOE and PP in our Ayto.
For ADANA's sake I have to be on the right side of the ruling PP so I hide my political allegiance.
This means I don't go to the pleno or any function where all the Concejales will be present for fear of receiving warm embraces and besitos from my compadres, this revealing my true colours...


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You know Mary, that's probably the most sensible thing you've said so far in this thread.
> There are loads of these cases coming up in the courts. There's a wikipedia page dedicated to Spanish corruption cases FGS.
> And the vast majority have got off/ will get off scott free because of technicalities, because the crime is "proscrito" (is that a word in English?), or because they are friends with the right people.
> No, there is little tangible evidence available to likes of you and I to support this, but just the sheer number of cases over the years and the small number of jail sentences is enough to raise eyebrows.


I think you mean _prescrito_ which means the offence has prescribed, _proscrito_ means outlaw


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I think you mean _prescrito_ which means the offence has prescribed, _proscrito_ means outlaw


Exactly, bit of a vowel problem there.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

How are judges appointed in Spain? Is it as in the US where political affiliation rather than expert knowledge of jurisprudence seems to be behind the selection?


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

It looks like they must pass the dreaded government employment tests (_oposiciónes_). After passing opos, they train and depending on their performance they are appointed. 

_Spain
*1) Ordinary Judges (administrative, civil and criminal)*
a) Student entry : After their basic law degree (which formally qualifies a person to practice as an
abogado), students prepare for 2½ years (usually with a private tutor) for the competitive
examination (oral: oposición). This examination selects both judges (jueces) and prosecutors
(fiscales), who form two distinct professions. Successful judicial candidates then train for six
months in the judicial college (Escuela Judicial) in Barcelona. Depending on ranking on exit
from the Escuela, judges will be appointed to vacancies by the independent agency running
the judicial service, the Consejo General del Poder Judicial (CGPJ). In order to obtain a post
in some courts, e.g. the administrative courts, it will usually be necessary for a judge to pass a
specialist examination in addition to the standard training.

b) Lateral entry : A quarter of posts as juez are reserved for lawyers with at least six years of
practical experience (about 50 a year). They enter the Escuela Judicial by means of a special
examination. In addition, a quarter of the posts as magistrado are reserved for lawyers of 10
years’ experience. They enter based on file and an interview. Many of the lateral entrants will
be fiscales. Entry by abogados to the full-time judiciary is less common, but they are often
appointed to part-time judicial posts

c) Career pattern : Judges will not usually be seconded to a ministry or act as a fiscales.
Administrative work would be focused on working for the CGPJ. They may well work as
judicial clerks in either the Tribunal Supremo or the Tribunal Costitutional.

d) Promotion : There are three tiers of judges: the Juez, the Magistrado, and the Magistrado del
Tribunal Supremo. The Consejo del Poder Judicial is responsible for judicial appointments,
but there is far less discretion than this might imply. Most appointments are based on
applications and seniority. There are only about 165 posts (under 5%) where there is genuine
discretion. Most of these are for the presiding judges of courts – the Audiencia Nacional, the
50 Audiencias Provinciales, the 17 Tribunales Superiores de Justicia, and the members of the
Tribunal Supremo and the presidents of its Salas. Even here, the Tribunales Superiores may
suggest three names from which the Consejo chooses one (because such judges must know the
local law (ley foral), as well as national law. The CGPJ also approves outside work, such as
teaching, and this will depend on the efficiency of the judges as measured in its workload
model (modulos).

e) Composition of Judicial Appointment Body : CGPJ is appointed by Parliament: 12 members
from judiciary among 36 candidates (18 suggested by judicial associations and 18 elected by
individual judges), and 8 from lawyers of 15 years’ professional experience. Effectively
nomination works on a party quota basis.

*2) Constitutional Judges*
a) Composition : Appointments by CGPJ (nearly always judges) and by Parliament (typically
professors and some abogados).
b) Career and promotion : None. A fixed tenure of 9 years._

Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4YVE4Pg4PPQ9d2B4A&sig2=loRMrCULeVoAgbiBwb4mrg

Another interesting read is: Features - A Guide to the Spanish Legal System | LLRX.com


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Camps case was tried by jury and the not-guilty decision was five to four. There is a lot of speculation in the press that had the trial been decided by the bench, he wouldn't have been let off, but he is very popular in Valencia (they elected him their president after all) and some of his supporters the jury were clearly not going to be influenced by evidence.

Did jury view Camps case as political? · ELPAÍS.com in English


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Is there talk of an appeal?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> Is there talk of an appeal?


Haven't seen anything about an appeal. 

As far as the judges go, there was smth in the news recently )last week, the week before) about how they are appointed, but can't see any reference to it. OH is unavailable (alubiada in Bilbao). Perhaps your man knows smth about it?


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Haven't seen anything about an appeal.
> 
> As far as the judges go, there was smth in the news recently )last week, the week before) about how they are appointed, but can't see any reference to it. OH is unavailable (alubiada in Bilbao). Perhaps your man knows smth about it?


I don't want to set him off. He was on a real tear about politics yesterday with SIL's mother in law (who has a bad case of the PPs) at SIL's birthday lunch. It was "fun" sitting between the two. 

On a side note, it always cracks me up how Spanish people can pretty much yell at each other about politics in a very heated debate and just two seconds later they're laughing and pouring the other person another glass of wine. This ability to not take things so seriously is a skill I have not yet mastered. 

Alubiada? Oh boy!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia;702055
On a side note said:


> It's not that people with that attitude don't take things seriously. As I see it it's about realising that people with different opinions to you are just that....people with different opinions, not your mortal foes.
> We can afford to be like that in Western countries, I guess.
> When I was Group Leader on my local Council I would show my opposite number, the Conservative Group Leader, no quarter in debate. It was my job to shred the *******.
> But after the meeting was over we would go off for a drink together and discuss issues quietly and sensibly...and often get more done than in the public theatre of the Council Chamber.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

From today's El Pais in English:



> *Police sustain charges that Valencia PP was illegally funded*
> _Anti-corruption prosecutors' summary backs allegations that regional party received payoffs from Gürtel network_
> 
> A High Court judge investigating crimes within the Popular Party (PP) in Valencia has been given a final summary by anti-corruption prosecutors that sustains allegations that the members of the Gürtel businessmen's network made illegal payoffs to the PP's regional organization, sources say.


It's not over yet by any means.


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2012)

Hacienda destapa un grave delito fiscal en la visita del Papa a Valencia | Política | EL PAÍS

...and it continues.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What are the laws relating to funding of political parties in Spain?

Am I right in viewing as corruption the 'arrangements' made between arms of HM Government in the UK and highly paid public servants to enable 'tax efficiency' aka avoiding tax due?
It seems at least one Government Minister knew and approved of the deal which may be the first of many to surface.

Sickening.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*Valencia, corruption, Camps*

Interesting report on "La Sexta" last night about Valencia. It seems that all the opulance of Valencia is a charade and they are up to their necks in debt. Basically up that creek that we've all heard about without a paddle.

Resacón en Levante - laSextaOn | laSexta - laSextaOn | laSexta

It is obviously a very biased report, but there is some hard to deny information here. Maybe not everything that is classified as debt in the programme is debt for the comunidad, maybe some figures are not what they seem, but 200.000 million euros of debt can't be explained away that easily. 
Apparently the formula 1 racing, Terra Mítica theme park, the Americas cup sailing competition, the Science Museum complex, the Pope's visit etc, etc all gave huge losses to the area.
Valecian Santiago Calatrava, the world famous architect who has designed many landmark buildings in Valencia, has cost them dearly. His budget doubled from the planning stage to execution
I still strongly follow the premise of "No smoke without fire". Oh, and Camps, as head of the Generalitat played his part in this sordid tale.

It's in Spanish, but you can make out the names Gürtel, Camps, Emarsa and many others clearly


----------



## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Hi Pecksy Wecksy, I can't see anything on my iPhone, just a blk screen, however yes Valencia regions are up the creek! and are sinking fast with no paddle


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Hi Pecksy Wecksy, I can't see anything on my iPhone, just a blk screen, however yes Valencia regions are up the creek! and are sinking fast with no paddle


Just google *la sexta resacon valencia* and you should get to it.


----------



## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Why didn't I think of that.. thanks


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

More "information" on Valencia and Camps!


----------



## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Hiya  once again won't open on iPhone,


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nor on a PC ...


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Nor on a PC ...


OK. I don't know why I'm the only one that can see them. I wonder if I'm wearing any clothes today...???!!!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I think the links might be cached on your PC. Press Ctrl F5 and see if you can still see them.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

How about this?


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> How about this?



Yes, thats there!!

jo xxx


----------

