# Safety issue



## foodie

Um... i am from hong kong. People sometimes say that mexico is very dangerous. There are many crimes there. Some tourists are robbed. What can i do to protect myself if i really go there?


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## DNP

foodie said:


> Um... i am from hong kong. People sometimes say that mexico is very dangerous. There are many crimes there. Some tourists are robbed. What can i do to protect myself if i really go there?


One thing different between Hong Kong and Mexico is that Mexico is a very large country. Much of Mexico is very safe. Stay away from places that aren't safe. Where do you plan to go in Mexico? For how long and for what purpose are you considering coming? If you feel safe in Hong Kong, why would you leave? Maybe you would be happier somewhere other than Mexico.


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## TundraGreen

I had the same reaction as DNP. I think those of us that live in Mexico get very tired of answering the question posed. Most of Mexico is very safe, but if you are concerned, don't come here.


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## kazslo

Although the question can be repetitive and tiring, its a concern that many people have due to the media's portrayal. My thought that if someone asks this question, it is because they are only looking to reinforce their decision to move/visit or not do so; more of a "yea, go ahead and do it".

At the end of the day realize the bias that your sources of information have...that the news is in the business of getting high ratings so their commercial slots are worth more, and therefore only cover the most dramatic stories and even further exaggerate the stories which are already shocking. I'd guess that millions of people visit Mexico every year without incident - and subsequently many come to love the country just after one trip. There is no "safety preparation" you can make when traveling more effective than researching your destination/route extensively and weighing what you learn against your own 'risk-tolerance'. Mexico for me has been safe, friendly, and has me living very content.


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## pappabee

In the '60's when the young were all upset about the war and how the US government was being run there was a question put to them by the "establishment". The question was "in what country would you rather be?"

Those of us who have moved here have answered that question with Mexico!
Some as full time others as vacation or part time residents. Mexico is NOT for everyone. People need to look at their reasons for wanting to move here, they need to visit here (not just for a few days but at least a few weeks), they need to find out what part of Mexico they'd like to live. (Mexico is a different as the US in what each section is like. If you don't like snow-please don't move to Maine and if you don't like heat-please stay away from Texas). 

Once you think you've found an area in Mexico then rent for a year or more before buying or building. 

Living here is a full time job. IMHO it's one of the best and most joyous that I have ever had.


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## TundraGreen

foodie said:


> Um... i am from hong kong. People sometimes say that mexico is very dangerous. There are many crimes there. Some tourists are robbed. What can i do to protect myself if i really go there?


Are you asking about a visit, as a tourist, or as someone thinking of longer stays in Mexico.


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## m55vette

Looking forward to my July visit. I always get the questions on crime. I feel safer lake side than I do in my US city. Lots more violence here than lake side. Every country has dangerous areas. Know in advance where they are and stay away from them. I was raised in Hawaii, my daughter is going there to visit, I was telling her where not to go to avoid crime. It is like that everywhere.


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## RVGRINGO

Over 20 million visit Mexico every year. Online, you can even watch the steady stream of cars crossing at the border point of your choice or watch little airplanes on simulated maps heading to Mexican airports from points north. Of those millions, a few might die in Mexico from heart attacks, drunken falls from a balcony on spring break, or even in a drug deal gone bad, etc. The morning's headline will be, "US CITIZEN DIES IN MEXICO!" Oh, I forgot; many Mexicans hold dual citizenship and in Mexico they are officially Mexican. However, for the purposes of US propagandistic headlines, they will be referred to as 'Americans'. Well, that is correct; Canadians, US citizens, Mexicans, Cubans, Bahamians and folks from some 20 or more other countries are also North Americans. Then, there are the South Americans. We all are.......
Next, we could play games with statistics, but won't.


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## conklinwh

Going back to the base question. I spent most of 1993-2000 living in Beijing and Singapore and doing business in some 13 countries from India to the Taiwan. In basically every country there were safe areas and not so safe areas. Even in Hong Kong there are places off Nathan Road where I would get nervous. It's the same in Mexico. Do your homework before coming. If I were going to the US, I probably wouldn't start with Detroit. Same here. Since you didn't say whether visit or move & what areas that you were looking at, it's hard to answer specifically.


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## DNP

conklinwh said:


> Going back to the base question. I spent most of 1993-2000 living in Beijing and Singapore and doing business in some 13 countries from India to the Taiwan. In basically every country there were safe areas and not so safe areas. Even in Hong Kong there are places off Nathan Road where I would get nervous. It's the same in Mexico. Do your homework before coming. If I were going to the US, I probably wouldn't start with Detroit. Same here. Since you didn't say whether visit or move & what areas that you were looking at, it's hard to answer specifically.


A vote for common sense and for not denying real problems that do exist--everywhere-- without overblowing them or dismissing them either.


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## guadamama

I wholeheartedly agree.....Having traveled the world, China, Turkey, Italy, Hong Kong etc., outside of the typical touristy areas, one must just be aware of their surroundings as they would at home. 
It disturbs me that the US government is sending this to anyone who is planning a trip to Mexico ( I received it after booking my flight my flight. after reading the blogs, researching and speaking with ex-pats and Mexican citizens, I am certain, although there are concerns at certain border areas, that the majority of this is propaganda...for whatever political agenda..I'm not sure. It appears to be a major overreaction and overreaching article.
Any comments?
Travel Advisory: Security Situation

From the U. S. State Department:
Millions of U.S. citizens safely visit Mexico each year, including more than 150,000 who cross the border every day for study, tourism or business and at least one million U.S. citizens who live in Mexico. The Mexican government makes a considerable effort to protect U.S. citizens and other visitors to major tourist destinations. Resort areas and tourist destinations in Mexico generally do not see the levels of drug-related violence and crime reported in the border region and in areas along major trafficking routes. Nevertheless, crime and violence are serious problems and can occur anywhere. While most victims of violence are Mexican citizens associated with criminal activity, the security situation poses serious risks for U.S. citizens as well.
Due to ongoing violence and persistent security concerns, you are urged to defer non-essential travel to the states of Tamaulipas and Michoacán, and to parts of the states of Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Sinaloa, Durango, Zacatecas, San Luis Potosi and Jalisco. Details on these locations, and other areas in which travelers should exercise caution, are below.
You should be especially aware of safety and security concerns when visiting the northern border states of Northern Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas. Much of the country's narcotics-related violence has occurred in the border region.


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## guadamama

*Safety Issue - Same everywhere*



DNP said:


> A vote for common sense and for not denying real problems that do exist--everywhere-- without overblowing them or dismissing them either.





guadamama said:


> I wholeheartedly agree.....Having traveled the world, China, Turkey, Italy, Hong Kong etc., outside of the typical touristy areas, one must just be aware of their surroundings as they would at home. I have also lived in Turks and Caicos for 3 years and although had my home robbed, it didn't scare me away, it just taught me to be more cautious.
> 
> It disturbs me that the US government is sending this to anyone who is planning a trip to Mexico ( I received it after booking my flight my flight. after reading the blogs, researching and speaking with ex-pats and Mexican citizens, I am certain, although there are concerns at certain border areas, that the majority of this is propaganda...for whatever political agenda..I'm not sure. It appears to be a major overreaction and overreaching article.
> Any comments?
> Travel Advisory: Security Situation
> 
> From the U. S. State Department:
> Millions of U.S. citizens safely visit Mexico each year, including more than 150,000 who cross the border every day for study, tourism or business and at least one million U.S. citizens who live in Mexico. The Mexican government makes a considerable effort to protect U.S. citizens and other visitors to major tourist destinations. Resort areas and tourist destinations in Mexico generally do not see the levels of drug-related violence and crime reported in the border region and in areas along major trafficking routes. Nevertheless, crime and violence are serious problems and can occur anywhere. While most victims of violence are Mexican citizens associated with criminal activity, the security situation poses serious risks for U.S. citizens as well.
> Due to ongoing violence and persistent security concerns, you are urged to defer non-essential travel to the states of Tamaulipas and Michoacán, and to parts of the states of Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Sinaloa, Durango, Zacatecas, San Luis Potosi and Jalisco. Details on these locations, and other areas in which travelers should exercise caution, are below.
> You should be especially aware of safety and security concerns when visiting the northern border states of Northern Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua, Nuevo Leon, and Tamaulipas. Much of the country's narcotics-related violence has occurred in the border region.


____________________________
Why the blanket scare tactic I WONDER


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## RVGRINGO

The government did similar dirty tricks to keep money and vacationers in the USA in years past. Actually, I had gone to Turkey as a nuclear missile officer in 1960; household goods, clothing and car enroute for my wife and children to follow when I found a house. Their passports awaited them at Newark, as they visited my inlaws to await orders. Well, the US decided to 'stem the gold flow' and cancelled their transportation & held their passports; an illegal and unconstitutional act! By telegraph, I was able to get congressional help and a colonel was dispatched to return their passports and apologies. However, the Air Force refused to fly them to Turkey and I had to buy them tickets myself. When we returned to the USA, they were quietly given passage home. There are other nasty stories, but I probably still shouldn't tell them. If you want to read US history, do it in heavy tomes written by non-US authors and published abroad; like in the UK, etc. There are always 'two sides' and much of our history taught in high schools is very 'revisionist'. As always, the truth can be ugly. In this case, the US wants to take no responsibility for failing to control the import, sale and use of drugs by as much as 20% of the US population. It is out of control! It is easier to blame it on the suppliers, most of which are still the same, just shipping through new and easier routes; like Mexico, while much is grown in the USA's national forests and parks, etc.


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## conklinwh

Unsubstantiated of course but has been posted here many times is that it is economic fear.
Some 2 million American live part or full time in Mexico and spend the majority of their funds there. What if say 6-10 million more decided to move with all their funds. It effects me as retired on pension and social security when discussions are had about the US taxing foreign assets as well as income or maybe changing social security for expats as living costs lower. How about banning foreign bank accounts. None of this is yet serious but the US is in such financial doo-doo, nothing would surprise me.


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## RVGRINGO

The situation is scary, as the dollar continues to decline and our pension and social security don't keep up; no raises again! On top of that, banks and credit card companies keep increasing ATM and foreign exchange fees to convert our dollars to pesos. We're suddenly feeling great economic pressure to change from no-inmigrante to inmigrante, and that is in process now. The next step, as soon as possible, will be 'resedente permanente' or naturalization, whichever we can do first. Then, as the US declines further into economic disaster, at least we won't have to prove income from there, in order to remain in Mexico. Of course, we'll be eating tortillas and beans with whatever grows in the yard. As old retirees, we're fast outliving our resources; a situation the young don't often envision, no matter where they live. Troubled times are ahead. Note that the USA has dominated the world for just some 50 years, while China has dominated it for 1800 of the last 2000 years. China is back in the saddle and India is also a major player now. It is time to face reality; but painful.


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## conklinwh

A little off the subject and I won't get into politics on why the dollar is being managed but I do need make two comments from your last two posts.
-China-There is growing concern that much of China's growth over last couple years has been funded by capital spent on structures through direction of their central bank. I read article that there is enough capital construction underway to build a new cubicle for every man woman and child in China which is over 1.3 billion. This in contrast with the previous period where growth driven by exports but I guess when world economy slows and you need 9% GDP growth to stave off riots then you have no choice but to invest internally whether you need it or not. What China is doing which is clever is going on a worldwide buying spree of physical assets and commodities using all the US dollars that they have been holding as a good hedge against the decreasing dollar. BTW, India is a whole nother subject as I spent 3 years doing business there. If anything, the Indians have done a wonderful job adapting and expanding the British appointee structure.
-US drug use. Good article on Borderland Beat about what they allude to as two myths. 1st is that legalization of drugs in US will decrease cartel violence. View is that would greatly help in the US but would cause significant turmoil in Mexico and throughout Latin America as the drug cartels scrambled to replace the revenue. Just like the mafia didn't go out of business after prohibition, the cartels will focus on expanding existing revenue sources such as extortion and kidnapping as well as finding new sources. Net is probably more violence internally, at least in the short term. BTW, other "myth" was that accommodating the cartels was the answer.


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## RVGRINGO

I don't disagree. It is the effect that is scary and the lack of willingness of most folks to 'give a damn'. Not that we individuals can do much about the present state of affairs. We lived on credit too long, individually and as a nation, and the fact is; things will change. Right now, it is just 'uncomfortable'.


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## conklinwh

More than uncomfortable-down right scary and we have a bunch of weasels in the chicken coop!


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## FHBOY

*Is Anywhere Totally Safe?*

Answer: No
As an American who is often asked the same question the answer is what you have read by those before me: it depends on where you go and how you act. I am, as one of my fellow poster mentioned, one of that 60's generation with an "establishment" problem and a veteran of Woodstock. I found, in Mexico, the part I am moving to: Ajijic, my place where I can once again be who I was all those years ago. What the Woodstock Nation meant to me.:hippie:

:behindsofa:If you are afraid of adventure, then you need to stay where you will have none and an adventure is something that frightened the hell out of you when it was happening and has only turned into an adventure when you tell the story, then you embrace it and it is yours.

lane:I will leave a business I built from nothing, my wife will leave teaching, we will leave our upscale cars behind, our kids, all the years of being like our parents (somewhat, although we did inhale!) and become what we thought we were going to be all along. Others have expressed envy with our decision. Are we afraid? Somewhat.

So, it all depends on you - there are safe geographic areas every where, there are unsafe geographic areas - learn to avoid them. But the most dangerous area is in your mind-it can hold you back, it can make you fearful of even going to the bodega down the block. That, my friend, is why people can live their lives comfortably but without the adventure!

:focus:Is Mexico safe? The places we looked and visited are, and we don't intend to try and find the unsafe areas, that is just dumb.


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## conorkilleen

I live in Monterrey NL and it has been getting worse month by month. Its all over the US and MX news and also hanging from some of the bridges. I have not personally seen anything first hand in my 4 months of living here other than some bad driving. The "bad guys" are usually the ones getting hurt or worse. There are rules you need to live by here that a regular American may see as nuts..like not wearing a nice watch, driving a super new fancy car or SUV, talking on your iPhone while on the street corner, going out after 9pm, withdrawing money from an ATM while there are young "halcones" standing around the corner, ect. Its the life and area i chose to live and I am content with it...for now. 

Is the area that I live in safe? By US standards, very. There are allot of unsafe places in Monterrey that I would need 2 sets of hands and toes to count them, but do I go to those places? NO. Do I go out after 9:00 pm? Rarely but we do sometimes. Do I wear a nice watch? Yes, but only to business meetings (I'm not a watch guy). Do I talk on my cell on a street corner? Um, no. You would be foolish to do that anyway...better to pay attention to the busses that are coming at you 50km per hour. Do I drive a nice new SUV?...not really, but its the same Ford here that you can see 20 of them in the same hour driving around...nothing special.

This is the part that may get me into some trouble with the majority here........If you live in the Lake Side area then your perception of Mexico from a safety perspective, I believe, may be a little skewed. Comparing life there and here is Apple to Oranges. If you see a Federal Police truck with a bed full of armed men here, you tend to let them pass you and stay pretty clear of them (they have been getting attacked regularly). In Lake Side it may not be so common, don't know. I have traveled the majority of Mexico and take into account the same precautions here in Monterrey that I would in Guadalajara, Puebla, Torreon, Saltillo, Oaxaca, cancun, Cabos, ect. I truly believe that the last 4 months of living here in Monterrey has somewhat hardened me up and opened my eyes to the real and perceived dangers of living abroad, not just in Mexico.

Like the other poster said- Its like an adventure and if you don't like adventure, then don't come. Of course some peoples sense of adventure may be sitting on a gated private resort beach in Cancun sipping a margarita and the only real danger is getting too tipsy. For others it may be settling into a retirement community where you get the culture, you get the atmosphere, you get the great food, but none of the hardcore rules that somewhat rule life in a border town or city like Monterrey. I DO look at living in Monterrey as an adventure...one that I need to take the proper precautions to protect my family and myself from being a victim from anywhere between petty theft to stray gunfire. These are real occurring things here in Monterrey and other parts of Mexico. The key is to be smart about where you go, be hyper aware of your surroundings and people, and last but not least enjoy yourself. Seems like danger finds people that are not prepared.


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## johnmex

Most of the comments about un-safe areas in Mexican cities could be equally applied to LA, Houston, St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, NYC, Miami...

Rio, Sao Paolo, Paris, Hong Kong....

You get the idea.

I have not personally witnessed any violence in the 19 years I have lived in Mexico. I've had my house broken into though, twice.


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## conorkilleen

johnmex said:


> Most of the comments about un-safe areas in Mexican cities could be equally applied to LA, Houston, St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, NYC, Miami...
> 
> Rio, Sao Paolo, Paris, Hong Kong....
> 
> You get the idea.
> 
> I have not personally witnessed any violence in the 19 years I have lived in Mexico. I've had my house broken into though, twice.


Agree with that 100%. I just came back from Sao Paulo on Saturday. I was there for a week on business and was glad to be back in Monterrey...felt safer here


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## pappabee

*Mexico is statistically much safer than the United States*

Sent to me by a friend with the Chicago Police Department who happens to have family living in Mexico.

"So why is the U.S. State Dept. sending out Travel Alerts, calling Mexico "A Failed State", and saying that ALL parts of the country (including popular tourist resorts like Puerto Vallarta and Cancun) are now unsafe for travel?

There’s been a lot of news coverage about violence in Mexico. But very little of it notes that Mexico is a HUGE country with thirty-one states (+ the Distrito Federal). They also fail to mention that most of that violence is drug traffic-related, or that you could count the number of tourists who are affected by it on one hand.

Did you know that, according to the FBI, an estimated
15,241 persons were murdered in the U.S. in 2009?

111 U.S. citizens were killed in Mexico last year, and almost all of them were involved in illicit drug trafficking, gun-running, or smuggling people across the border to/from the U.S.

Imagine....111 people out of the nearly 8 million visitors (about 1 million of whom make Mexico their full-time home).

You know who else had 111 murders in one year? Well, Boston for starters. Then there was Las Vegas, Orlando and Indianapolis. Is the State Dept. advising tourists to stay away from those places?

Meanwhile, nearly 1,000 U.S. citizens died in Puerto Rico, but did anybody raise a red flag about that?

Then there’s the U.S. proper, which the State Department can't issue a Travel Warning on, because it’s, well, not a foreign country. But just look at the numbers....

How’s your own city doing when compared to Mexico? Here are the annual numbers of MURDERS, given by MSA (or Metropolitan Statistical Area)...

Atlanta - 325 MSA
Baltimore 298 MSA
Boston 111 MSA
Dallas/Ft. Worth 310 MSA
Detroit 447 MSA
Houston 462 MSA
Indianapolis 111 MSA
Jacksonville, FL 120 MSA
Kansas City 163 MSA
Las Vegas 133 MSA
Los Angeles 768 MSA
Miami-Boca Raton 377 MSA
New Orleans 252 MSA
New York City 778 MSA
Orlando 111 MSA
Philadelphia 436 MSA
Phoenix 302 MSA
San Francisco 292 MSA
St. Louis 210 MSA
Washington, DC 325 MSA

To put things in perspective, consider that the murder rate in Mexico's Yucatan State is 2 per 100,000. That’s about the same as Fond du Lac, Wisconsin or Evansville, Indiana.

Mexico City’s murder rate is 8 per 100,000, despite being the second-largest city on the planet. That’s on par with Albuquerque
.
And how often do we feel scared in Albuquerque....?!?!?!"


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## conklinwh

Statistics are wonderful things. I like the earlier post on another thread tat you are 25% more likely to be shot in Washington DC than Mexico.


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## conorkilleen

pappabee said:


> Sent to me by a friend with the Chicago Police Department who happens to have family living in Mexico.
> 
> "So why is the U.S. State Dept. sending out Travel Alerts, calling Mexico "A Failed State", and saying that ALL parts of the country (including popular tourist resorts like Puerto Vallarta and Cancun) are now unsafe for travel?
> 
> There’s been a lot of news coverage about violence in Mexico. But very little of it notes that Mexico is a HUGE country with thirty-one states (+ the Distrito Federal). They also fail to mention that most of that violence is drug traffic-related, or that you could count the number of tourists who are affected by it on one hand.
> 
> Did you know that, according to the FBI, an estimated
> 15,241 persons were murdered in the U.S. in 2009?
> 
> 111 U.S. citizens were killed in Mexico last year, and almost all of them were involved in illicit drug trafficking, gun-running, or smuggling people across the border to/from the U.S.
> 
> Imagine....111 people out of the nearly 8 million visitors (about 1 million of whom make Mexico their full-time home).
> 
> You know who else had 111 murders in one year? Well, Boston for starters. Then there was Las Vegas, Orlando and Indianapolis. Is the State Dept. advising tourists to stay away from those places?
> 
> Meanwhile, nearly 1,000 U.S. citizens died in Puerto Rico, but did anybody raise a red flag about that?
> 
> Then there’s the U.S. proper, which the State Department can't issue a Travel Warning on, because it’s, well, not a foreign country. But just look at the numbers....
> 
> How’s your own city doing when compared to Mexico? Here are the annual numbers of MURDERS, given by MSA (or Metropolitan Statistical Area)...
> 
> Atlanta - 325 MSA
> Baltimore 298 MSA
> Boston 111 MSA
> Dallas/Ft. Worth 310 MSA
> Detroit 447 MSA
> Houston 462 MSA
> Indianapolis 111 MSA
> Jacksonville, FL 120 MSA
> Kansas City 163 MSA
> Las Vegas 133 MSA
> Los Angeles 768 MSA
> Miami-Boca Raton 377 MSA
> New Orleans 252 MSA
> New York City 778 MSA
> Orlando 111 MSA
> Philadelphia 436 MSA
> Phoenix 302 MSA
> San Francisco 292 MSA
> St. Louis 210 MSA
> Washington, DC 325 MSA
> 
> To put things in perspective, consider that the murder rate in Mexico's Yucatan State is 2 per 100,000. That’s about the same as Fond du Lac, Wisconsin or Evansville, Indiana.
> 
> Mexico City’s murder rate is 8 per 100,000, despite being the second-largest city on the planet. That’s on par with Albuquerque
> .
> And how often do we feel scared in Albuquerque....?!?!?!"


Pappa- any reports on Kidnapping for ransom or express kidnapping for a quick buck in the US? There is no way to get confirmed numbers from Mexico, but I know personally 2 people in the last 2 months that have spend some quality time in a truck of a car for a few hours.


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## conklinwh

You've hit on what I see is the greatest future concern. As the drug cartels divide the control of parts of the integrated drug channel is lost and drug running isn't as profitable or easy so alternate sources of funds will be tried or enhanced. Kidnapping and extortion are obvious options and they imply "civilian" violence. As I said earlier this would be greatly accelerated if the US legalized parts of the drug trade.


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## conorkilleen

conklinwh said:


> You've hit on what I see is the greatest future concern. As the drug cartels divide the control of parts of the integrated drug channel is lost and drug running isn't as profitable or easy so alternate sources of funds will be tried or enhanced. Kidnapping and extortion are obvious options and they imply "civilian" violence. As I said earlier this would be greatly accelerated if the US legalized parts of the drug trade.


 My biggest fear= The US legalizes drugs and/or Mexicos pride breaks down and they allow US military occupation to help sort out the drug mess here in country. If the latter happens then I am fearful that it will become an all out war here in Mexico between the US military and the cartels and US citizens will be targeted...not because we are fighting the war but because we are...just here and unarmed.


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## tepetapan

Mexico would give the country to the cartels before they ever allowed th U.S. military into Mexico. And I would support that decision 100%.


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## conorkilleen

tepetapan said:


> Mexico would give the country to the cartels before they ever allowed th U.S. military into Mexico. And I would support that decision 100%.


Curious on to what your thoughts are on what that scenario would look like (if the cartels ran Mexico)


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## pappabee

conorkilleen said:


> Curious on to what your thoughts are on what that scenario would look like (if the cartels ran Mexico)


It didn't take me long to decide what I'd do. 

1--I'd wash my butt
2--Kiss it good by
3--Find the first flight to Walden Pond (Henry David said it's a great place to be)

This might be deleted but who cares since the cartels would be running Mexico.


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## zookerz6

Three pages worth of earnest replies, yet no response from the OP....


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## tepetapan

conorkilleen said:


> Curious on to what your thoughts are on what that scenario would look like (if the cartels ran Mexico)


 I figure, after a time , it would look like it did 15 years ago. Isn´t that what was happening then? 
Don´t get me wrong, I do not support the cartels in any way. I do support Calderon, he is doing what he feels is needed for Mexico. But if you think things are ugly now, just imagine U.S. military in the mix. My vote was for the best of two bad choices.


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## scubakevin

Safety is without a doubt one of the biggest issues in Mexico right now for people either thinking about traveling for vacations or for relocating on a permanent or semi permanent basis.

The "Crime" as you called it or "drug war" as the news is calling it is simply like any other crime war in the US or other countries, I liken it to Chicago in the bootleg days or New York during the Mafia Crime families struggling for territory or if you want to look at current day how about the gang violence in LA or Miami. Christ when I was young I worked the streets of Newark NJ as an EMT before heading to NY and we wore a bullet proof vest and carried handcuffs, black jacks and 6 cell mag lights. In the city of orange twice we went back to the barn with bullet holes in the ambulance.

I moved to Mexico 17 years ago from NJ with my then wife who was from Mexico City originally, I was 35 she 25 and we decided to move here for a better life or higher standard of living and a slower paced life. (I had a small 4 person consulting firm in Manhattan 3 blocks from the towers and she was a buyer for JC Penney).

When i arrived in Mexico City our biggest concern was indeed "street crime", someone mugging you on the street for your pesos or watch or whatever you had. There was less negativity towards americans at the time across the country and our final destination in Mexico after taking a "time out" in Mexico City was Cancun. I was going to teach scuba diving full time and wife was gonna see what she wanted to do. We had savings as well as liquid cash from the sale of our home and cars (we decided not to drive to Mexico). 

We lived for 13 months in Mexico City which I as a New York fanatic loved, museums, restaurants, parks, and so much to see and do. In 1995 we started the move to Cancun from the City driving a XR7 that I bought in the City. We stopped in Villahermosa Tabasco first and spent 2 days, I felt less safe in Villahermosa than in Mexico City.

From there we bounced to Chetumal Quintana Roo which is the capitol of the state where Cancun is located. We did way too much sightseeing between Villahermosa and Cancun and so we had to stay over in Chetumal which indeed was a scary town. The room next to ours at the hotel we stayed was pure guys dressed in black and carrying M4's, M16 and 45's so I don't think I slept a wink. We got out of there early and headed to Cancun. The city of Chetumal I can say was the worst and dirtiest that I had ever seen in Mexico to that point as well as the scariest.

*Cancun*
We arrived to Cancun without issues and had a reservation at the inn sort of in downtown of friends of the family who also had a restaurant. I was perfect for us with a small kitchen, sitting area and bedroom right in the center of town. We found an nice 2 bedroom condo within 3 days in a desired area and I went off to the dive shop where we had dived in the past on vacations to talk about work. Both of us with our backgrounds got hired immediately but no thanks to the american working there in charge. We had to talk to the Mexican owners both US university grads who hired my wife as buying manager for the marina (a position they created for her) and myself as a diving instructor although they wanted me to review the marketing plans for the marina.

The diving was great and the owners pushed me more towards management than diving which isn't what I wanted but this in Mexico was the timing of internet technology rising and I was without a doubt a computer freak with a lot of experience from the NY market. I began studying programming and before you knew it I built a website for the marina. I took a management job after all since the $$ offer was good and began to meet many of the business people in Cancun which caused me a sudden influx of interest in an internet presence. Within a year I was out of the marina and consulting on web presence, corporate image and marketing special projects for different clients. 

I decided to hang out my shield and set up a consulting business for the tourism industry and in particular Internet Presence and later in the 2000's Internet Marketing. 

I have lived in Puerto Aventuras which like Chapala is quite americanized and almost everyone speaks english and the town hired me to handle all of their marketing and web presence which I did for nearly 9 years. In 2005 I was in Mexico City visiting a client when hurricane Emily rolled over Puerto Aventuras and I lost almost everything. I decided to stay in Mexico City and run my business from there for a while which turned into 2 years, one of those years in Mexico City and another in Pachuca in the state of Hidalgo about 90 minutes from the city. 

Hidalgo is a small city which in perspective is between the size of Cancun and Guadalajara in the mountains also called "the windy city" for its constant breeze and cool temps.

Pachuca was the only place in Mexico where I was "robbed" and robbed right in my office. We were doing good and I moved the office to Pachuca and had a staff of 12 including graphic design, programmers and public relations and support staff. One day we were in the office working and 2 guys wearing ski masks entered with guns and rounded all the people into my office tied them with tape and ordered me to turn over the cash. Unfortunately for me we were not a cash business and apart from a few hundred pesos in my wallet there was nothing. So not to leave empty handed they stole our computers, printers and even some supplies from the storage room. 

My assistant was on the phone with police for 6 minutes while I was outside with my hands still taped trying to get the plate of the car that was getting away. 20 minutes later the police arrived but of course they were long gone by then and we recovered nothing.

After the new year passed we were still doing well with clients from around Mexico and some in the US, Canada and even in Switzerland who were looking to market tourism in Mexico. but alas my client from Puerto Aventuras called and requested that I move operations back to Puerto Aventuras or the area ASAP to assist in getting them back on their feet after the passing of 2005's 3 major hurricanes and later the beginning of the economic crisis around the world.

We did make the move and took 50% of my staff with me back there. i bought a condo 500 meters from the beach in Playa del Carmen north of the city next to Mayakoba where the PGA golf classic is held each year and commuted daily the 40 minute ride to Puerto Aventuras. 

The area had changed alot since the hurricanes and alot of new businesses opened while alot of the old businesses had closed. Playa del Carmen which in 2003 was a sewer with crappy hotels, bad food and lots of crime (playa del crimen) now had 6 traffic lights on the highway making the commute a nightmare. Building homes everywhere you can imagine and trying to change the local image.

We lived in a gated community with 24 / 7 security and diverse middle class mostly business owners and some politicians living in the community controlled entry and exit. 

In 2009 we found that even living in a secure community so to speak wasn't enough, we were at the opening of an art exhibition when my neighbor called to tell me that they broke into his and my condo (7PM) and could I come right away. My neighbor found out because he heard a lot of noise while taking a siesta with his girlfriend but before he could check it out the burglar was standing in his bedroom shocked and speechless to find people at home. Seems the guy opted to enter my neighbors condo after repeated failed attempts to break through the security bars and doors on my condo. 

Since that night we found out that more than 30 of the homes and condos in our neighborhood had been broken into and robbed. Small time crimes but still concerns of safety amongst the neighbors. The back of my condo faces the jungle and beach so there are no homes behind us just a couple of small hotels on the beach and lots and lots of jungle.

While I / we have never faced a kidnapping situation or threats of such related to gangs and all of that unfortunately we personally know 5 people who have. One who is a fellow photographer who was kidnapped years ago in Mexico City and had 2 of his fingers cut off as proof and to hurry payment of monies, another who had just helped my best friend from Mexico City move to Cancun was kidnapped as he drove back into Mexico City (Kidnapping Express) and most recent we have 2 close friends who are being stalked and threatened by the ZETAS here in Playa del Carmen to pay a weekly ransom to avoid being kidnapped and another who is just a business acquaintance.

I love Mexico but it continues to be a 3rd world country rotten to the top with corruption and injustice. I would never move back to the US as I do not agree with their politics and apart from the financial crisis taking hold there. But I was in europe for 3 months last year on a project and took my wife and my mother in law along so they could know Germany. They fell in love with europe and I again fell in love with it. For me in particular Germany (Bavaria) was an emotional experience and before we came back to Mexico we were looking at real estate and immigration for my wife. We also loved Italy and Hungary as well as England, Scotland and Ireland although I don't think I would opt for Ireland. 

So in the end Power lines aside from everything else knowing what I know now would I still make the move to Mexico??? Probably NOT. Would I leave Mexico because of everything going on??? Probably NOT. But I would leave Mexico for a better and safer life but well planned and executed not just by the seat of my pants.

Kevin


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## FHBOY

Zookerz6: When I first got into this forum, I also did not check it too often, it is daunting to some of us, and a very new form of communication. I have no doubt the the OP will come back eventually to read what we have said. Meanwhile, I wonder how many other have read the three pages and gotten something from them.

OP's some times post interesting questions that I or you may not have thought about and then, like wow!, we get something real good from it.

I look forward to the OP's response, meanwhile I hope others add their stories for those of us who do check in on a semi regular basis as a member of the MexEF community. BTW did you add your story to the opening "Introduction" thread?


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## scubakevin

FHBOY said:


> Zookerz6:I look forward to the OP's response, meanwhile I hope others add their stories for those of us who do check in on a semi regular basis as a member of the MexEF community. BTW did you add your story to the opening "Introduction" thread?


Hi no I haven't I just fell upon the forum and thought I would post my comments but I am currently scanning the forum now.

Regards
Kevin


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## ReefHound

johnmex said:


> Most of the comments about un-safe areas in Mexican cities could be equally applied to LA, Houston, St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, NYC, Miami...


Apples and oranges. You're comparing very small pockets to widespread areas.

Every night in Houston, there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people out after 9pm, driving fancy cars, talking on their iphones, wearing jewelry and watches, and seldom does anything happen. Most Americans would consider the "precautions" outlined by Connor as "ghetto rules". Something you don't do in certain known pockets of cities like Houston whereas those rules apply to nearly all parts of Mexican cities. 

I have never known or even heard of anyone in Houston who owned a business and were extorted to hand over 25% of their revenues in order not to have it burned to the ground or be killed. I've never known or heard of anyone express kidnapped for ransom, well except once in a while some illegals being brought here will be kept hostage by their coyotes until additional fees are paid. You may get car jacked in a bad part of town at 2am but I've never seen or heard of any "checkpoints" set up anywhere.


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## FHBOY

I respect your comment, ReefHound, but extortion "protection" has been going on in the US for a century or more, again, depending on region as has kidnapping for profit/revenge. 

Also, I live in the Murder Capital of America and while pocket book theft and hold ups do not make the news, I am sure they are a regular occurrence here also. 

There was a checkpoint on the way into PV from the north the last time we were there. You know, perversely, I was happy to see it. I wonder, if there were more checkpoints in the US, would we be safer? Not that I am advocating it, it is not the American way, but then we are not a country under siege by drug cartels. But ask yourself, if you've been to DC lately, aren't we also being "checked" like going into national monuments, museums, public spaces...and why? See? Is our 9/11 analogous to their drug cartels? No simple answers.

I suppose that I am of the opinion that it is where you live, in the US or in Mexico, or anywhere for that matter as to the amount of crime. I also suppose that it is your profile that may a factor also.

As someone who is planning to just retire, not open a business, is not extravagant in action or possession, I feel safer where we are going than I do here.

In short, there is no easy simple answer, I suppose.


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## scubakevin

Yes I agree with FHBOY, I don't know where you live REEFHOUND but in NY, MIAMI, BOSTON, LA, CHICAGO since the bootleg days and even before that and to date extortion of businesses exists and is alive. How about the famous ITALIAN BAKERS ASSOCIATION in Brooklyn in 1993 and 1994 who burned the competitions bread trucks or beat the drivers and even threatened to kill business owners in the same business who wanted to enter their areas of distribution.

Lets face it crime is everywhere and I can tell you from in the 70's and early 80's in NJ and NY we had more shootings, stabbings and assaults than ever were seen on TV or in the newspapers. 

Actually you see everything in small town newspapers rather than city papers because the reporter simply walks into the local police station and reads the blotter which is a public log of every call that comes in and a car, ambulance or fire truck is sent to. The city is more complicated and now I have no idea how the small towns are after 911 centralization which we didn't have back in my day except in Newark NJ and NYC and on Friday or Saturday night or around the 15th or 30th of each month you dialed 911 you got a recorded message to hold on while an operator became available.

I have walked with Camera and Computer in some of the worst areas of mexico city for work, ride the subway, and drive my SUV and have never had a problem. I don't need to wear a lot of gold and expensive jewels to feel good about going out and if I am not walking I don't worry about it. 

Right now in fact Mexico has in effect CONAGO which are roadblock revisions of vehicles for Drugs, arms and bombs. For my part a complete violation of human rights but since the Mexican Constitution doesn't provide for due process its kind of a dead issue to beat. 

As a business owner I have never been approached HERE for extortion money nor has my wife and I as I mentioned in earlier post would NEVER move back to the US.


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## conorkilleen

ReefHound said:


> A
> Every night in Houston, there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people out after 9pm, driving fancy cars, talking on their iphones, wearing jewelry and watches, and seldom does anything happen. Most Americans would consider the "precautions" outlined by Connor as "ghetto rules". Something you don't do in certain known pockets of cities like Houston whereas those rules apply to nearly all parts of Mexican cities.


ha, yes. Reefhound. We do call them Ghetto Rules.

Seems like only a hand full of posters here on this thread are here for business and don't have the luxury of living in what I like to refer to as the "expat bubble". As I know that the US is dangerous in some ares, I see allot of statistics saying that this or that US city is dangerous and has 400+murders per year...I think Monterrey surpassed that in a few months of 2011. I see allot of people telling themselves that Mexico is safer than the US and they feel safer here, well, I guess thats true if you live in the "bubble". Play with statistics and tell yourself that enough times then you will start believing it.

The big difference in Mexico and the US is that you don't see 75% of the murdered people hanging from bridges with their entrails hanging out, people being skinned, burned, then hacked up and thrown in front of a church or elementary school for the "shock" affect. Police in the US are there to help, as for the Police in Mexico the majority are to not be trusted or you stay far away from them as a "precaution" because you don't want to be caught in a crossfire. The Police, Federal or local, have been known to shoot first and ask/answer questions later.

The moment you let your guard down here is the moment that you become easy prey. I live by my Ghetto Rules because I have to.


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## TundraGreen

ReefHound said:


> Something you don't do in certain known pockets of cities like Houston whereas those rules apply to nearly all parts of Mexican cities.


I disagree with the nearly "all parts of Mexican cities" statement. I live in Guadalajara and routinely go to late movies and walk home alone at 1 or 2 in the morning. Similarly in Queretaro, I have walked around late at night with no concern. I also see women, young and old, alone on the street late at night in both of those cities, which suggests to me that the locals also consider it safe. I have felt more danger in San Francisco than I have in Guadalajara. I have also walked around late at night near the Zocalo in Mexico City. I am sure the comment above does apply to some parts of some cities. As has been stated before, it behooves everyone to pay attention to their surroundings and be aware of the situation.


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## scubakevin

Well yeah man you live in the heart of the **** there in Monterrey and no Monterrey didn't exceed 400 in the first 6 months of the year but getting close. The 400 number was reached using all of the drug war or gang related crime lumped together.

Regards
Kevin


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## conorkilleen

scubakevin said:


> I have walked with Camera and Computer in some of the worst areas of mexico city for work, ride the subway, and drive my SUV and have never had a problem. I don't need to wear a lot of gold and expensive jewels to feel good about going out and if I am not walking I don't worry about it. .


Did you know that Mexico City is actually considered by many Mexicans to be one of the safest cities in Mexico now? If things get too bad here in Monterrey we are looking to transfer to DF. That was not the case 5-6 years ago in DF or MTY. It was actually the opposite.


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## conorkilleen

scubakevin said:


> Well yeah man you live in the heart of the **** there in Monterrey and no Monterrey didn't exceed 400 in the first 6 months of the year but getting close. The 400 number was reached using all of the drug war or gang related crime lumped together.
> 
> Regards
> Kevin


I was a little off...440 killed in the first quarter of 2011 (in NL, including Monterrey)

A quarter is 3 months. 440 in one state in 3 months. Not all lumped together with the rest of the country. 

Then, if you count the 200 plus in the San Fernando grave, Durango Grave, Juarez daily 20+, and the other states, well then its way over 400 in the first 6 months. I follow this stuff better than many bubble-pats here. I don't talk about it on the forums because its not what this forum is for. If I wanted to talk about it I would go to one of the 5 sites that are available for that sort of stuff. I admit I got sucked into this thread, so I digress.


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## ReefHound

FHBOY said:


> I respect your comment, ReefHound, but extortion "protection" has been going on in the US for a century or more, again, depending on region as has kidnapping for profit/revenge.


And somewhere in the U.S. there is polygamy and incest but not on a widespread basis. I challenge you to dig up any claims by restaurant owners or small business owners that gangs are forcing them to hand over a percentage of revenues under threat of violence and they must comply because local police either will not or cannot do anything about it.

I'm not talking about the "official" checkpoints but the narco checkpoints. 

I was in DC last summer and it's a pain going through security but you do that voluntarily and that is like what, a dozen buildings out of ten thousand in the area?


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## ReefHound

TundraGreen said:


> I disagree with the nearly "all parts of Mexican cities" statement. I live in Guadalajara and routinely go to late movies and walk home alone at 1 or 2 in the morning. Similarly in Queretaro, I have walked around late at night with no concern. I also see women, young and old, alone on the street late at night in both of those cities, which suggests to me that the locals also consider it safe. I have felt more danger in San Francisco than I have in Guadalajara. I have also walked around late at night near the Zocalo in Mexico City. I am sure the comment above does apply to some parts of some cities. As has been stated before, it behooves everyone to pay attention to their surroundings and be aware of the situation.


Change it to half of Mexico then and congratulations on your good luck, so far.


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## DennyDaddy

Safety Issues.....

Talking about safety issues, we use to sometimes stay in a RV camp in the county area of Yuma, near the marine base!

My wife always walked the county roads in the orchard areas!

So about three years ago, walking alone, a van pulled next to her, she walked across the street, it took off and and turned around and the big slide van door openned, they were going to drag her in the van, yup a kidnap and she ran, it followed and again the same happened.... She is skinny and a fast runner, then a car passed by, the van left, then came around again! She decided it's time to hop the fence and get to a house! The van then fled!

True story right here in the US! So I guess we all can say, it's not only that maybe bad things happen in Mexico, but right here at home in the States! The police came as I got there, said it was as far as they could tell, an attempted kidnap!

Now, in Mexico my wife takes walks by herself....against my will, but I sometimes go with her! Not my cup of tea, walking!

The only safety issue we feel in Mexico where we are staying, in walking, is the Dogs! Never been bit, but these dogs here, sure don't like people or cars!

But here she does walk in res areas with lots of people, and just about anything tho can happen, more or less like living anywhere in the world, here in Mexico!

Just try to avoid the war zones!


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## conorkilleen

They key here is to never let your guard down. The moment you do that you are lost. If you live in Mexico, wherever in Mexico, without a heightened sense of awareness, you are too comfortable and in some respects, naive.


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## FHBOY

C'mon ReefHound, of course I can't cite chapter and verse. Nor can I document police being complicit in the "protection" rackets, but it is all part of history and in some cities the present. 

I live in Baltimore, the traditional Mob doesn't function here, but I come from NYC and there the mob does function. "Protection" comes from which guys pick up your trash (use the wrong one, they will set fire to your dumpster-Yes I was threatened with that-in North Jersey), get your linens from the wrong distributor, see how long they can supply you, hire the wrong contractor or don't give out enough jobs, see where it gets you. Gotta get a building permits, how many palms do you need to grease? So you see, extortion and protection are real.

Police corruption - Google the Knapp Commission to find out about that...and it is not over.

But let's get back to this: If you are an average American in Mexico, working, owning a business, "in the bubble" then I have a question: 

How much interaction do you actually have with the Federales, the local cops or any law enforcement? If you are like I said before, how much interaction are you going to have with the drug cartels, knowing that that is illegal? So what I am asking is: on a day-to-day basis, how much of all this affects ex-pats in Mexico?


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## conorkilleen

FHBOY said:


> But let's get back to this: If you are an average American in Mexico, working, owning a business, "in the bubble" then I have a question:
> 
> How much interaction do you actually have with the Federales, the local cops or any law enforcement? If you are like I said before, how much interaction are you going to have with the drug cartels, knowing that that is illegal? So what I am asking is: on a day-to-day basis, how much of all this affects ex-pats in Mexico?


I don't think any of us on this forum are "average" Americans. If you read or watch the news in the US, I think that the average American would not step foot in Mexico now adays.

To answer your questions (from an un-average American point of View living in Mexico):
-How much interaction do you actually have with the Federales, the local cops or any law enforcement? NONE. I try to stay far away from them especially out in the open on the street.

-How much interaction are you going to have with the drug cartels, knowing that that is illegal? NONE. I value my life and my families life too much

-On a day-to-day basis, how much of all this affects ex-pats in Mexico? All of it affects you. How could it not. Just because you don't interact with a Cartel does not mean one of their stray bullets will come through your window, or one of their thugs needs to make a quick buck and throws you in a trunk of a car for a few hours to milk your ATM.

If you think that the drug violence in Mexico does not affect you then I feel very bad for you and your motive for living here. It affects the whole country, directly or indirectly. Economy, food prices, gas prices, safety, TRAVEL. Ask the Mexicans around you if they think it affects them...most will say NO, not directly, but I would guess it affects their pride as a Mexican citizen, knowing the world is looking at them like their country is lost. 

I do agree that there are some areas in Mexico that are safe by US standards, but there are much more that you are not covered in the blanket of US security and freedom as you would feel in the US.


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## cscscs007

The first time I traveled to Mexico Nuevo Laredo was the first thing I saw. My first impression was not good in the least, however by the end of the 3 weeks I had a change of mind. Now years later, Mexico is a beautiful country with things to do, places to see, and the people I met were far better than the people in the US. Sure, every country has crime. I just follow the same rules as in the US. Mexico's crime may differ than the US a bit, but as long as you use a little common sense the time spent there will be enjoyable. I love the lifestyle Mexico offers, and I fully intend to enjoy it as long as I am able.


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## HolyMole

FHBOY said:


> .....
> But let's get back to this: If you are an average American in Mexico, working, owning a business, "in the bubble" then I have a question:
> 
> How much interaction do you actually have with the Federales, the local cops or any law enforcement? If you are like I said before, how much interaction are you going to have with the drug cartels, knowing that that is illegal? So what I am asking is: on a day-to-day basis, how much of all this affects ex-pats in Mexico?


We've driven many thousands of kilometers in Mexico with almost no contact with police. However, we met a credible fellow from Vancouver who says he has been "shaken down" for bribes by police every year, without exception, that he has driven to Mexico. We met another couple, full-time ****** residents in Zihuatanejo, who said it is a regular occurrence to be stopped by police (usually transitos) for morditas at one particular round-about. We've driven that same round-about a hundred times, without incident.

I agree with those who say that the crime and violence affects everyone in Mexico to some degree -locals, foreign residents or tourists -whether it's physically, financially or psychologically. And no, I don't think the Mexican situation is anything like crime and violence in the US or Canada. Even if one has not been directly involved in any incidents in Mexico, it's still sobering to see truckloads of masked, heavily armed police or army troops driving around, or armoured cars with roof-mounted machine guns at the airports.


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## RVGRINGO

Once you have committed the felony of paying a bribe, you're going to be stopped repeatedly, as described above, as a good source of pesos. Those who know better than to ever pay 'mordida', will usually be left alone.


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## ReefHound

FHBOY said:


> C'mon ReefHound, of course I can't cite chapter and verse. Nor can I document police being complicit in the "protection" rackets, but it is all part of history and in some cities the present.


I'm not saying that corruption and extortion and kidnapping do not happen in the USA, they happen everywhere in the world. What I'm saying is they do not occur on the same scale. If you think they do, no point in discussing it further.


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## pappabee

ReefHound said:


> I'm not saying that corruption and extortion and kidnapping do not happen in the USA, they happen everywhere in the world. What I'm saying is they do not occur on the same scale. If you think they do, no point in discussing it further.


Would you please quote some facts (not opinions) to prove your case.


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## conorkilleen

pappabee said:


> Would you please quote some facts (not opinions) to prove your case.


Seems like a fair enough question, but I would say that the stats would not be accurate. I would say that its not as talked about openly in the US as it is in Mexico. Whomever makes the most noise gets the most attention.

The "talk" may not be as prevalent in sheltered expat communities in Mexico as it is in Monterrey, or Acapulco, or even Juarez.

I know the one thing that does not happen in the US is whole towns being overrun by criminals and mass exodus of frightened citizens to neighboring states and towns. I know this for a fact. I spoke to a woman and her family that was from Miguel Aleman Tamaulipas and she had some frightening stories about Cuidad Mier and how droves of people exited the area due to cartels going up and down the street telling everyone to leave...and they did...and no Military came to the rescue. She actually relocated by force to Monterrey because it was safer...go figure. This would never happen in the US.


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## pappabee

conorkilleen said:


> Seems like a fair enough question, but I would say that the stats would not be accurate. I would say that its not as talked about openly in the US as it is in Mexico. Whomever makes the most noise gets the most attention.
> 
> The "talk" may not be as prevalent in sheltered expat communities in Mexico as it is in Monterrey, or Acapulco, or even Juarez.
> 
> I know the one thing that does not happen in the US is whole towns being overrun by criminals and mass exodus of frightened citizens to neighboring states and towns. I know this for a fact. I spoke to a woman and her family that was from Miguel Aleman Tamaulipas and she had some frightening stories about Cuidad Mier and how droves of people exited the area due to cartels going up and down the street telling everyone to leave...and they did...and no Military came to the rescue. She actually relocated by force to Monterrey because it was safer...go figure. This would never happen in the US.


Not within the last 100 years or so but take a good look at US Western history and you'll see it happening many times. The gangs would move into a town and the good citizens would leave. Chicago and New Orleans didn't force people to leave the city, they just forced them to live in certain areas of the city. It was said that anytime an area of Chicago started to give Pappa Daily problems he'd order a slum clearance.  

It would do us good to remember that some of what Mexico is going through now the US went through years ago. IMHO, Mexico is an emerging nation and the US emerge years ago and is now falling back wards.


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## tepetapan

I agree completely, Mexico is going through growing pains and people are doing their best to make it as painful as possiable, not meaning just the cartels. 
There are cities and villages, I would guess, that have been targeted by the cartel fighting but just maybe they were always havens of the drug smugglers and someone new came to town. And in the end they reaped what they sowed. 
As far as cuidad Mier, I see the military is in force there now, as they have been for months. But saying this does not happen in the U.S. is not exactally true. Many areas in the big cities have had problems with gangs (cartels?) moving into areas, causing people to flee, selling their homes at huge discounts if they were lucky and smart. Others ended up in gang neighborhoods with little or value left to their homes.


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## conorkilleen

tepetapan said:


> I agree completely, Mexico is going through growing pains and people are doing their best to make it as painful as possiable, not meaning just the cartels.
> There are cities and villages, I would guess, that have been targeted by the cartel fighting but just maybe they were always havens of the drug smugglers and someone new came to town. And in the end they reaped what they sowed.
> As far as cuidad Mier, I see the military is in force there now, as they have been for months. But saying this does not happen in the U.S. is not exactally true. Many areas in the big cities have had problems with gangs (cartels?) moving into areas, causing people to flee, selling their homes at huge discounts if they were lucky and smart. Others ended up in gang neighborhoods with little or value left to their homes.


again- Apples to Oranges. I don't think low level, low profile drug dealers moving into already low income neighborhoods in the US can be compared to armed convoys of military style gunmen with automatic high caliber rifles running around without impunity in the city actually forcing people out. Sorry but I'm not sold on your view. We can agree to disagree there.

I also guess that in the US there have been busses highjacked (with help of the local police) and months later mass graves with 200+ people buried in them? Maybe back in the 1800's something like that may have happened to the indians in the west and midwest, but we are talking about modern times. People getting skinned. Heads cut off and savage acts that are not even human. Not sure I have ever heard any of that happening in my lifetime in the US let alone as a daily happening.

In a nutshell, there are folks here on the forum that will live how they want to live and nobody will change their/my opinion. I live where I live and you live where you live. Just as long as we all can agree that this is not the US and there ARE things happening, far away and right next door. If you don't let it affect you, thats great. Just remember there is a beautiful country with wonderful people in it that it does affect whether you want to admit it or not. 

I'm going to live my life like normal, whatever I deem normal for me is in Mexico right now. I urge the rest of you to do the same. carry on.


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## Tr0phy_Scars

On our way back from Nayarit to San Luis Rio Colorado, our car was ran off the road in the state of Sinaloa. The car was tailgating us very close and once he made his move to pass us, he turned off his lights and tried to side swipe us and make us roll off the highway. I guess once he didn't see us role or any damage, he just left. It was like 2-3 in the morning.

That's the problem having updated California or any U.S. plates on your car in deep Mexico. They expect you have money and will try to hijack or rob you. 

But overall never had any other problems in other cities in Mexico, beautiful place.


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## HolyMole

Tr0phy_Scars said:


> On our way back from Nayarit to San Luis Rio Colorado, our car was ran off the road in the state of Sinaloa. The car was tailgating us very close and once he made his move to pass us, he turned off his lights and tried to side swipe us and make us roll off the highway. I guess once he didn't see us role or any damage, he just left. It was like 2-3 in the morning.
> 
> That's the problem having updated California or any U.S. plates on your car in deep Mexico. They expect you have money and will try to hijack or rob you.
> 
> But overall never had any other problems in other cities in Mexico, beautiful place.


That's the kind of frightening story that makes me hesitate driving south again.
On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't be on the road in Mexico at 2 or 3 in the morning.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Night highway driving*



HolyMole said:


> That's the kind of frightening story that makes me hesitate driving south again.
> On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't be on the road in Mexico at 2 or 3 in the morning.



Is there really a good reason to be on a highway, especially in Sinaloa, after dark in an American licensed car? Not really, in my opinion. I have had a friend of a friend have his car stolen from in front of the motel room in Sinaloa. If it was me, I feel, it is better to stay at a secured motel or large hotel with a security guard at the parking lot. Lately that goes for Nayarit and Michoacan, hopefully that will change soon.


----------



## Hound Dog

conorkilleen said:


> Curious on to what your thoughts are on what that scenario would look like (if the cartels ran Mexico)


If the scenario were properly handled and the government used its negotiating skills with aplomb, choosing to ally itself with one or a few powerful cartel(s) at the expense of the others, things would return to the way things were for 70 years under the corrupted PRI and Fox´s PAN. That is, a restoration of civil order and the establishment of the expedited pipeline needed to supply the spoiled Americans with their drugs needed by them to support their disgusting and insatiable appetites for drugs made even more tempting by the drugs´ illicit nature. What´s different between this poor country supplying drugs to the NOBBERS and the deep southern United States and the Canadian outback provinces such as Manitoba supplying illicit booze to the upscale U.S. markets during prohibition? When Elliot Ness rode in on his white steed and brought down established gang leadership whether in Chicago or Monterrey, all that resulted was chaos. Get serious. 

Make a deal with chosen cartels, wipe out the competition, legalize and tax drugs and let´s move on.


----------



## pappabee

Hound Dog said:


> If the scenario were properly handled and the government used its negotiating skills with aplomb, choosing to ally itself with one or a few powerful cartel(s) at the expense of the others, things would return to the way things were for 70 years under the corrupted PRI and Fox´s PAN. That is, a restoration of civil order and the establishment of the expedited pipeline needed to supply the spoiled Americans with their drugs needed by them to support their disgusting and insatiable appetites for drugs made even more tempting by the drugs´ illicit nature. What´s different between this poor country supplying drugs to the NOBBERS and the deep southern United States and the Canadian outback provinces such as Manitoba supplying illicit booze to the upscale U.S. markets during prohibition? When Elliot Ness rode in on his white steed and brought down established gang leadership whether in Chicago or Monterrey, all that resulted was chaos. Get serious.
> 
> Make a deal with chosen cartels, wipe out the competition, legalize and tax drugs and let´s move on.


Again you post opinions and make them sound like facts. I asked before that you please post some facts to prove what you are saying. You have not done that. I'm not saying that you are wrong, all I'm asking is that you back up your opinions with some facts that the rest of us can understand. 

FYI according to Elliot Ness's book most of the booze did come from Canada because there was such a very long unprotected border. The shine from the 'deep southern' states didn't travel very far and was less than 1% of the booze distributed in the US. Also a lot of booze was brought in through the east coast in mis-labeled containers. That's one reason org-crime needed control of the dock workers union. They needed them to move the booze.


----------



## conorkilleen

pappabee said:


> Again you post opinions and make them sound like facts. I asked before that you please post some facts to prove what you are saying. You have not done that. I'm not saying that you are wrong, all I'm asking is that you back up your opinions with some facts that the rest of us can understand.
> 
> FYI according to Elliot Ness's book most of the booze did come from Canada because there was such a very long unprotected border. The shine from the 'deep southern' states didn't travel very far and was less than 1% of the booze distributed in the US. Also a lot of booze was brought in through the east coast in mis-labeled containers. That's one reason org-crime needed control of the dock workers union. They needed them to move the booze.


You have Hound Dog confused with Reefhound. You asked Reef to post facts and not opinions in a previous page. Now you are asking Hound Dog.


----------



## pappabee

conorkilleen said:


> You have Hound Dog confused with Reefhound. You asked Reef to post facts and not opinions in a previous page. Now you are asking Hound Dog.


I knew it was a hound. Your right, I'm sorry---we get too old and too late smart.


----------



## DNP

Hound Dog said:


> If the scenario were properly handled and the government used its negotiating skills with aplomb, choosing to ally itself with one or a few powerful cartel(s) at the expense of the others, things would return to the way things were for 70 years under the corrupted PRI and Fox´s PAN. That is, a restoration of civil order and the establishment of the expedited pipeline needed to supply the spoiled Americans with their drugs needed by them to support their disgusting and insatiable appetites for drugs made even more tempting by the drugs´ illicit nature. What´s different between this poor country supplying drugs to the NOBBERS and the deep southern United States and the Canadian outback provinces such as Manitoba supplying illicit booze to the upscale U.S. markets during prohibition? When Elliot Ness rode in on his white steed and brought down established gang leadership whether in Chicago or Monterrey, all that resulted was chaos. Get serious.
> 
> Make a deal with chosen cartels, wipe out the competition, legalize and tax drugs and let´s move on.


I sometimes find your posts off-putting, sometimes not. What I really like about them though is that they show you read some history which, in my opinion, many posters don't -- before they spout off about something. So, despite your grumpiness sometimes, keep it up.


----------



## conorkilleen

DNP said:


> I sometimes find your posts off-putting, sometimes not. What I really like about them though is that they show you read some history which, in my opinion, many posters don't -- before they spout off about something. So, despite your grumpiness sometimes, keep it up.


I agree with that. He knows how Mexico was 10 years ago. The answer he gave was what I expected and wanted him to give. It's not like cartels are new here in Mexico, but the brutal violence from them is. After Calderon called out the dogs, I don't believe Mexico will ever be the same, good or bad.


----------



## Hound Dog

ReefHound said:


> I'm not saying that corruption and extortion and kidnapping do not happen in the USA, they happen everywhere in the world. What I'm saying is they do not occur on the same scale. If you think they do, no point in discussing it further.


That makes sense. If your point of contention is so weak that you state to your opponent that if he/she does not agree with your position, there is"...no point in discussing it further." Well, Dawg certainly does not agree with you and I am more than willing to discuss it much further. In Mexico, an acutely corrupted society from the top down to the lowest levels of society, all knowledgeble people know this and live with it more or less to survive and, perhaps, prosper. The United States is inhabited, on the other hand, by numerous people who have no idea how corrupted by money their society has become. Politicians en masse are completely corrupted by monied interests from city halls to county commisions to state houses to the U.S. congress to the executive branch and, what the hell, that is human nature. Time for thoughts of revolution which is a needed renewal in the cesspool of human organizational efforts. 

Go ahead and look down on Mexico. We are all in the same boat so look in the mirror instead of seeking the weakness in your neighbor. If it were not for the slimy Americans sucking up the drugs which should never have been outlawed in the first place and U.S. gunrunners (including the U.S. goverment) supplying the armaments to the cartels, we could drive down the street here in Mexico without fear of running over human heads tossed about so cavalierly by outlaws protected by corrupt governmental thugs both here and in the U.S. 

What gross hypocrisy.


----------



## Hound Dog

conorkilleen said:


> I agree with that. He knows how Mexico was 10 years ago. The answer he gave was what I expected and wanted him to give. It's not like cartels are new here in Mexico, but the brutal violence from them is. After Calderon called out the dogs, I don't believe Mexico will ever be the same, good or bad.


A well made point conorkileen:

As with Calderon in Mexico taking on the cartels and the U.S. in Afghanistan and the nation artificially created by the British today called Iraq and the French and Americans being slaughtered by those indistinguished (by western standards) tenacious Vietnamese shrimp in Indochina, we never seem to learn that imperialism knows only temporary victories. Imagine if Germany had prevailed in WW 11 and had had to govern France and Greece and Portugal and Spain into the 21st Century. They would have long ago retreated to their pre-WW11 boundaries and declared these nations autonomous, self- govererning zones after having stolen all the great vintage wines they had discovered in hidden caves. Humans are too busy being aggressive to learn from their mistakes.


----------



## conorkilleen

Hound Dog said:


> A well made point conorkileen:
> 
> As with Calderon in Mexico taking on the cartels and the U.S. in Afghanistan and the nation artificially created by the British today called Iraq and the French and Americans being slaughtered by those indistinguished (by western standards) tenacious Vietnamese shrimp in Indochina, we never seem to learn that imperialism knows only temporary victories. Imagine if Germany had prevailed in WW 11 and had had to govern France and Greece and Portugal and Spain into the 21st Century. They would have long ago retreated to their pre-WW11 boundaries and declared these nations autonomous, self- govererning zones after having stolen all the great vintage wines they had discovered in hidden caves. Humans are too busy being aggressive to learn from their mistakes.


I like the cut of your jib, sir.


----------



## conklinwh

I think that the genie is out of the bottle and don't think it will go back.
Dancing with the devil is possible for some period, look at the deal Roosevelt made with Lucky Luciano and the invasion of Sicily, but this is still an unholy alliance that won't hold. Just like everybody considered Columbia lost before Uribe, I think Calderone has certainly made inroads. According to Borderland Beat, they have captured or killed 21 of the top 37 cartel leaders in the last two years. The net unfortunately is that the cartels are actively looking for safer havens outside Mexico and evidently some success in Central America. They are also expanding distribution into Europe and Asia with alliances there as they are losing significant product on the border.
My net is that the cartels will look for and expand additional money making options in Mexico such as extortion, kidnapping, human trafficing and prostitution much like the mafia as prohibition wound down. They will probably move there HQ's to safer havens and leave flunks's to run operations in Mexico as they set up drug distribution channels worldwide that mostly bypass Mexico. You can't pick winner/loser gangs as there is always someone that wants a bigger share. Gangs will shift if pressed. This caused the shift from Columbia to Mexico and will cause a shift elsewhere. As in the godfather, internecene warfare isn't good for business.
I personally think that drugs for personal use should be legalized and the distribution taxed. Abusers should be treated much like alcolholics.


----------



## kazslo

I just caught an article online from the Chicago Tribune, talking about how home values here have dropped in the major vacation spots due to cartel violence.



http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/realestate/sc-cons-0623-umberger-housing-confere20110623 said:


> Put simply, significant numbers of Americans fear the prospect of living there.
> 
> That's according to Christopher Hill, CEO of the Mexico operation of Stewart Title Latin America. Hill is heading the Mexico Real Estate Coalition, a housing industry campaign to persuade Americans and Canadians, particularly retirees, to take a second look at Mexican real estate.
> 
> Hill recently told a meeting of the National Association of Real Estate Editors in San Antonio that, behind the awful headlines, most of the nation is safe for Americans and that some homes in Mexico's most popular areas are on sale, to say the least.
> 
> Q: Since 2006, when an army-led crackdown on Mexico's drug cartels began, at least 34,000 people have died in the violence, according to Mexico's own official figures. A U.S. State Department travel advisory reported that 111 U.S. citizens died in Mexico last year, though it doesn't specify how many of those deaths may be tied to the drug war. Certainly, we see the news reports of Americans innocently caught up in the violence. Yet you maintain that most parts of the country are safe?
> 
> A: We're not going to hide the fact that we have a severe problem right now. But the issues are not everywhere. The statistics bear that out.
> *
> Among the 2,500 counties and municipalities in Mexico, just 80 have been affected by drug violence, mostly, but not exclusively, in areas bordering the U.S. But those places (where the violence has occurred) have cast a shadow across the whole country.*


----------



## ReefHound

> Among the 2,500 counties and municipalities in Mexico, just 80 have been affected by drug violence, mostly, but not exclusively, in areas bordering the U.S. But those places (where the violence has occurred) have cast a shadow across the whole country.


But what percentage of the population do those 80 make up? To give you an idea how such numbers can be misleading, look at this red/blue map by county for the US 2008 election, which we know Obama won decisively.


----------



## FHBOY

*Rate Of Crime*



ReefHound said:


> I'm not saying that corruption and extortion and kidnapping do not happen in the USA, they happen everywhere in the world. What I'm saying is they do not occur on the same scale. If you think they do, no point in discussing it further.


ReefHound: We should not close this discussion. I do believe that there is crimes going on, I am not a naif about it. The only point I was making is that there is nothing new about it, it's been going on and will go on wherever there is greed and such.

I just would hope that it won't touch people, like us - one who want to live "in the bubble" as ex-pats, as we go about iour day-to-day routine. No doubt the cartel crime and the petty crime affects everyone...what I know...just like here in the states..is it doesn't affect me on a daily basis...except for the fiscal strain it puts on our governing agencies (again, a given)

Keep the discussion going ReefHound - there is good stuff on this thread.
_________________________________________
I would also like to add something off topic here: I am only a recent participant in this type of communication, keeping up with cnn.com or whatever on my lunch hour. I agree that the level of discourse on many of the places I peruse is confined to two sentence "facts" by people who have no ideas other than those provided by media outlets, in other words, un-researched opinions with no supporting corroboration and said in the minimal amount of words so it can "get up there fast". I appreciate this forum because I have noticed that we all seem to ignore that, take time to think, express views with some coherence, and, in many cases, agree to disagree with out name calling and personalization.

I find I am now coming here daily to try and find good intellectual people, and I just wanted to thank y'all for your participation. Let the discussions continue!


----------



## RVGRINGO

I find it so very 'interesting' to see how many posters from the USA and Canada tell us, with great certainty, how it is in Mexico. Some of them have visited, some have not and a few have obvious agendas.
As a decade-long expat resident of Mexico, I can assure you that our life has not changed much at all.
There is a drug war and something is being done about it. Outsiders seem outraged because Mexican law is Napoleonic, "Guilty until proven innocent" and they also don't understand the various divisions and restrictions on police: Traffic police can't deal with anything but traffic. Protection police can only act when they see a crime in progress. After the fact, a crime must be reported to the Ministerio Publico; not the police, for it is too late for them. It helps if you know the name of the culprit. On top of all that, and perhaps because of it, an act in progress will frequently result in gunfire. "Stop or I'll shoot" used to be the rule in the USA; it still is the rule in Mexico and they will shoot. It solves the problem of an inefficient justice system, overcrowded prisons, etc. Where the police fail, or are part of the problem, neighborhoods often 'solve the problem' and then call the police to dispose of the trouble-maker. It is an old and effective system, which we may neither like, nor understand.


----------



## pappabee

*Crime in Mexico--you gotta be kidding*

There is crime in almost every country in the world. OK so maybe Andorra doesn't have any but the rest of the world does. There is corruption in almost any government organization, how much and how high depends on the amount of profit or prestige that is available. Lord Acton once said that ‘power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely’. This was said in 1887 so the idea has been around for a few years. 

Now to the question of partnering with the Devil in order to reach a goal. This also has been around for a very long time. Going back to the French and Indian Wars there were tribes on both sides that were made promises in order to get them to fight for either the French or the British. Hitler made a pact with Stalin in order to allow Germany to move into Poland. The US made a pact with China to try to halt Japanese aggression. The city of LA made a pact with one street gang in order to get their assistance in getting rid of two others. AND, prosecutors often make deals with one crook in order to catch another. INHO there is no such thing as pure justice. Justice seems to be, not what is right but what is right right now. 

Do I think that Mexico should make deals and support one or more cartels in order to get rid of others? NO! Mexico has no way to control any of the cartels. Without some control you have no safety. Mexico with its built in corruption is not strong enough and there is no way that the US should enter Mexico even at the request of a government. Remember that the US has been involved in three civil wars. Korea, Vietnam and the current middle east. So far it has lost two of them and it looks like they’ll probably lose the third also. At least they will not win any of the conflict in the Middle East. 

If you wish to turn the country over to one or more of the cartels then (as history has shown in all three of the civil wars) you must be prepared for some of the worse carnage that we have ever seen. 

This is my opinion and I understand that some will disagree with me but if they look back at history they will find that such appeasement has never worked. And since I’m 68 years old I’d very much like to have a reality safe live for the rest of my years.


----------



## pcrial

*Is Mexico safe?*



conorkilleen said:


> I live in Monterrey NL and it has been getting worse month by month. Its all over the US and MX news and also hanging from some of the bridges. I have not personally seen anything first hand in my 4 months of living here other than some bad driving. The "bad guys" are usually the ones getting hurt or worse. There are rules you need to live by here that a regular American may see as nuts..like not wearing a nice watch, driving a super new fancy car or SUV, talking on your iPhone while on the street corner, going out after 9pm, withdrawing money from an ATM while there are young "halcones" standing around the corner, ect. Its the life and area i chose to live and I am content with it...for now.
> 
> Is the area that I live in safe? By US standards, very. There are allot of unsafe places in Monterrey that I would need 2 sets of hands and toes to count them, but do I go to those places? NO. Do I go out after 9:00 pm? Rarely but we do sometimes. Do I wear a nice watch? Yes, but only to business meetings (I'm not a watch guy). Do I talk on my cell on a street corner? Um, no. You would be foolish to do that anyway...better to pay attention to the busses that are coming at you 50km per hour. Do I drive a nice new SUV?...not really, but its the same Ford here that you can see 20 of them in the same hour driving around...nothing special.
> 
> This is the part that may get me into some trouble with the majority here........If you live in the Lake Side area then your perception of Mexico from a safety perspective, I believe, may be a little skewed. Comparing life there and here is Apple to Oranges. If you see a Federal Police truck with a bed full of armed men here, you tend to let them pass you and stay pretty clear of them (they have been getting attacked regularly). In Lake Side it may not be so common, don't know. I have traveled the majority of Mexico and take into account the same precautions here in Monterrey that I would in Guadalajara, Puebla, Torreon, Saltillo, Oaxaca, cancun, Cabos, ect. I truly believe that the last 4 months of living here in Monterrey has somewhat hardened me up and opened my eyes to the real and perceived dangers of living abroad, not just in Mexico.
> 
> Like the other poster said- Its like an adventure and if you don't like adventure, then don't come. Of course some peoples sense of adventure may be sitting on a gated private resort beach in Cancun sipping a margarita and the only real danger is getting too tipsy. For others it may be settling into a retirement community where you get the culture, you get the atmosphere, you get the great food, but none of the hardcore rules that somewhat rule life in a border town or city like Monterrey. I DO look at living in Monterrey as an adventure...one that I need to take the proper precautions to protect my family and myself from being a victim from anywhere between petty theft to stray gunfire. These are real occurring things here in Monterrey and other parts of Mexico. The key is to be smart about where you go, be hyper aware of your surroundings and people, and last but not least enjoy yourself. Seems like danger finds people that are not prepared.


I've made 32 extended stay trips to Mexico over the past 12 years, in all probably a year, but in various cities all around Mexico. I've driven (as recently as March 2011) right through some of the areas listed as dangerous. Of course, that is relative. For example, I lived 12 years near Detroit Michigan, and south of 8 mile road in Detroit is perhaps more dangerous. Right now, Phoenix, AZ is the murder and kidnapping capital of the USA.

Statistically, there are about 150,000 people who cross the US/Mexico border at Eagle Pass Texas. Out of that number, how many are crossing for an illegal reason involving drugs? So out of these 150,000 the vast majority reach their Mexico destination just fine, and return to Texas just fine. Of course, I don't drive a fancy automobile. I don't flash large sums of money (actually don't have large sums). I don't hang out in the areas where drugs are bought, sold, or consumed. 

I think your safety in Mexico depends a lot on you, and your habits. I know someone, who has had lots of dangerous problems in Mexico, yet this person engages in what I would term risky behavior. Culturally not much different than going to a Green Peace rally, and talking about your profession as a whaler, and harvesting whales for blubber and oil.

Cheers,


----------



## conorkilleen

pcrial said:


> I've made 32 extended stay trips to Mexico over the past 12 years, in all probably a year, but in various cities all around Mexico. I've driven (as recently as March 2011) right through some of the areas listed as dangerous. Of course, that is relative. For example, I lived 12 years near Detroit Michigan, and south of 8 mile road in Detroit is perhaps more dangerous. Right now, Phoenix, AZ is the murder and kidnapping capital of the USA.
> 
> Statistically, there are about 150,000 people who cross the US/Mexico border at Eagle Pass Texas. Out of that number, how many are crossing for an illegal reason involving drugs? So out of these 150,000 the vast majority reach their Mexico destination just fine, and return to Texas just fine. Of course, I don't drive a fancy automobile. I don't flash large sums of money (actually don't have large sums). I don't hang out in the areas where drugs are bought, sold, or consumed.
> 
> I think your safety in Mexico depends a lot on you, and your habits. I know someone, who has had lots of dangerous problems in Mexico, yet this person engages in what I would term risky behavior. Culturally not much different than going to a Green Peace rally, and talking about your profession as a whaler, and harvesting whales for blubber and oil.
> 
> Cheers,


I guess. Tell that to the 200+ innocent bus passengers that lost their lives in San Fernando, Tamaulipas.


----------



## pcrial

conorkilleen said:


> I guess. Tell that to the 200+ innocent bus passengers that lost their lives in San Fernando, Tamaulipas.


I'm not saying there is no danger. In March, I stayed in Saltillo, San Luis Potosi, Leon, Guanajuato, San Miguel de Allende, and Monclova. On this trip, I saw more Mexican Army people than cartel people. I was stopped four times by the Mexican Army, asked where I was going, why, for how long, and had my car checked for drugs, and yet not one time did I hear or see shoot outs. That isn't true of areas south of 8 mile in Detroit. I know a guy here in Australia who bought one of the cheap houses in Detroit. He couldn't get the Detroit realtor to respond about efforts to rent it out. So he flies to Detroit, and at the realtor's office he was told, we don't have any agents willing to go to that part of Detroit, because it is too dangerous.

Safety is relative. Every once in a while, you hear of a plane crash where hundreds of people die, yet air travel is the safest way to go anywhere statistically. I have a son-in-law who is afraid to fly. There are dangers all around us. One comedian said he heard most accidents occur within 10 miles from home, so he moved. We have people who overreact, to almost every news report.

I don't wish to live my life with unrealistic fears. The innocent people on the bus that lost their lives, was just a random act of violence, much like the terrorists flying planes into the World Trade Center. Some years back I stayed in The Vista International Hotel, in The World Trade Center, NYC. Was I being risky? I don't think so, since the terrorists choose their victims at random. There is little protection for random events. If you had been a resident of New Zealand, living in the area worst hit by the earthquake, you would likely have died. Same if you lived in the area of Japan hit by the tsunami, or if you lived in the states of Texas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Alabama or Georgia when the killer tornadoes hit. People die everyday all over the earth from random events. Does this cause us to stop going to the beach, or to tornado alley, or to earth fault zones? Probably not, since an airplane crash doesn't stop most from flying.


----------



## pappabee

*Boy do we have our priorities messed up*

It’s interesting that we have seen a bunch of posts regarding how safe or unsafe it is here in Mexico. But the largest cause of death in the US is health. As per the CDC here are the top 7 causes.
•	Heart disease: 616,067
•	Cancer: 562,875
•	Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 135,952
•	Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 127,924
•	Accidents (unintentional injuries): 123,706
•	Alzheimer's disease: 74,632
•	Diabetes: 71,382

Heart disease killed over 616000 men, women and children in the US and yet we still spend more money on fast foods than on salads. We still walk less and drive more. We still think that it’s OK for our kids to exercise no more than 30 minutes a day. 
I guess we’re just afraid of the unknown but will forgive the known.


----------



## pcrial

pappabee said:


> It’s interesting that we have seen a bunch of posts regarding how safe or unsafe it is here in Mexico. But the largest cause of death in the US is health. As per the CDC here are the top 7 causes.
> •	Heart disease: 616,067
> •	Cancer: 562,875
> •	Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 135,952
> •	Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 127,924
> •	Accidents (unintentional injuries): 123,706
> •	Alzheimer's disease: 74,632
> •	Diabetes: 71,382
> 
> Heart disease killed over 616000 men, women and children in the US and yet we still spend more money on fast foods than on salads. We still walk less and drive more. We still think that it’s OK for our kids to exercise no more than 30 minutes a day.
> I guess we’re just afraid of the unknown but will forgive the known.


Agree wholeheartedly! No one seems to even think about getting in their car to go somewhere, but in 2008 there were 39 million people who died in auto accidents in the USA. Should we go back to the horse and buggy, or return to just walking like the American Colonists did back in the 1600's?

The numbers papabee quoted are small in comparison, since you are more likely to die in a car accident than any other single cause in the USA, yet, everyone, except the Amish use cars. (Opps, forgot they can ride in them, and die in them, just can't drive them)


----------



## rckrckr

pcrial said:


> Agree wholeheartedly! No one seems to even think about getting in their car to go somewhere, but in 2008 there were 39 million people who died in auto accidents in the USA. Should we go back to the horse and buggy, or return to just walking like the American Colonists did back in the 1600's?
> 
> The numbers papabee quoted are small in comparison, since you are more likely to die in a car accident than any other single cause in the USA, yet, everyone, except the Amish use cars. (Opps, forgot they can ride in them, and die in them, just can't drive them)


39 _million _dead? Wow.


----------



## m55vette

Just got back from 2 weeks in our home in Ajijic. Can't wait to get back. Yeah, there were issues in Joco, but it was between gangs. I had no bad experiences, just great ones. Walked and rode the bus everywhere, felt completely safe and met great people. Fun to watch families out in the evening and kids playing a version of stick ball in the street while mom and dad sell amazing tacos...


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## pcrial

rckrckr said:


> 39 _million _dead? Wow.


Oh well, got the decimal point in the wrong place. The statistics chart showed the units as being millions, but the one column showing deaths, had an asterisk, and for that column the units is 1,000s. So correction 2008 39,000 died in automobile accidents.


----------



## pappabee

pcrial said:


> Agree wholeheartedly! No one seems to even think about getting in their car to go somewhere, but in 2008 there were 39 million people who died in auto accidents in the USA. Should we go back to the horse and buggy, or return to just walking like the American Colonists did back in the 1600's?
> 
> The numbers papabee quoted are small in comparison, since you are more likely to die in a car accident than any other single cause in the USA, yet, everyone, except the Amish use cars. (Opps, forgot they can ride in them, and die in them, just can't drive them)


I'm not sure where you got your numbers but this is according to the US Department of Transportation.
_

"A statistical projection of traffic fatalities in 2009 shows that an 
estimated 33,963 people died in motor vehicle traffic crashes. 
This represents a decline of about 8.9 percent as compared to 
the 37,261 fatalities that occurred in 2008"


----------



## pcrial

pappabee said:


> I'm not sure where you got your numbers but this is according to the US Department of Transportation.
> _
> 
> "A statistical projection of traffic fatalities in 2009 shows that an
> estimated 33,963 people died in motor vehicle traffic crashes.
> This represents a decline of about 8.9 percent as compared to
> the 37,261 fatalities that occurred in 2008"


See my posted correction to 39,000. The stats chart had an asterisk beside the death column. The other numbers were in millions, but the deaths were in 1000s.

BTW: The numbers have been getting better over the past several years. It was really bad 30 years ago, as a percentage of cars being driven. These days the percentages are dropping when compared to total number of cars being driven. The 39,000 includes the victims who were not in cars, like pedestrians hit by cars, etc...

Deaths by diseases listed previously is higher.


----------



## borisyjessi

DNP said:


> A vote for common sense and for not denying real problems that do exist--everywhere-- without overblowing them or dismissing them either.


I could not agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## theladygeorge

Meanwhile, nearly 1,000 U.S. citizens died in Puerto Rico, but did anybody raise a red flag about that?

Umm... PR is a common wealth of the US and the people there are American citizens maybe I misunderstood you. Just sayin'. However I was unaware of that high # of deaths! The island is only 35X 100 miles...


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## RVGRINGO

Ah, but people from NoB want to live in Mexico, while few would want to move to PR.


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## conorkilleen

RVGRINGO said:


> Ah, but people from NoB want to live in Mexico, while few would want to move to PR.


PR is really nice, just WAY too humid for my liking. You really can't escape it there. At least in Mexico you have the choice of about half a dozen climates that would suite the needs of the masses. The only thing I don't like about PR aside from the humidity, is the over abundance of fast food restaurants. Its like there is a KFC, BurgerKing, and Pizza Hut on every corner. No wonder there is such a high amount of childhood obesity and diabetes on the island.


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## conklinwh

Statistics are interesting things and can be used to prove almost every point one wants to make. We feel very secure in our little sheltered part of Mexico but I'm sure even here there is a level of crime that sort of flows on.
I can also somewhat understand why some people are spooked about Mexico. To me it isn't the level of crime but the senseless violence. I lived through some tough times in New York where actually walked the center line of streets to stay away from doorways but I never thought that if I were mugged that pieces of me would be scattered about.
In the US, we even expect our criminals to be "civilized" and abhor pure random violence.
That all being said, we haven't changed much. We do read about various areas and drive more cuotas to the border than in the past.


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## theladygeorge

conorkilleen said:


> PR is really nice, just WAY too humid for my liking. You really can't escape it there. At least in Mexico you have the choice of about half a dozen climates that would suite the needs of the masses. The only thing I don't like about PR aside from the humidity, is the over abundance of fast food restaurants. Its like there is a KFC, BurgerKing, and Pizza Hut on every corner. No wonder there is such a high amount of childhood obesity and diabetes on the island.


Yes PR is beautiful but heck NO I would not live there too small and talk about gossip and people in your business whoa!. I agree the weather options are better in MX and the NOB influence is limited. Child obesity, drug use both 'scripted' and illegal, thief and a huge blur of cultures (NOB vs PR) not for the better. The other side is that wonderful Salsa music & dance the food and island flavor.


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