# Spain unemployment up to 25 percent, 5.8 million people out of work



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I saw this on the news early this morning - I've just been waiting for the English language press to pick it up




> One Spaniard in four is now officially out of work as the economic crisis tightens its grip on the country. The National Statistics Institute said Friday that 85,000 more people joined the ranks of the unemployed between July and September, raising the total to 5.78 million. The figures brought the country's unemployment rate up by around 0.4 percentage points in the third quarter to 25.02 percent.
> For those under 25 years of age, the unemployment rate edged down marginally to 52 percent from 53 percent in the previous quarter.
> 
> Read more: Spain unemployment edges up to 25 percent in 3rd quarter, 5.8 million people out of work | Fox News
> ​


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Spain needs to do something about this! Cos, altho I love Spain dearly, I cant believe that this sort of situation is good for even expats who move over without needing employment. Living in a country thats falling so spectacularly like this is going to make everyone feel a tad insecure????

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Over 30% in the Canary islands


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> Spain needs to do something about this! Cos, altho I love Spain dearly, I cant believe that this sort of situation is good for even expats who move over without needing employment. Living in a country thats falling so spectacularly like this is going to make everyone feel a tad insecure????
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes - I agree. It's not a comfortable place to be when so many Spaniards are suffering and so many self-sufficient immigrants are not. The fact that the immigrants are nearly always of benefit to the local economy will make no difference if law and order breaks down and incomers with money become a target or even just get caught up in the mess. It's nowhere near the time to have a grab bag ready to scarper quick but it's possible that time might come...


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## javierch (Aug 2, 2012)

I think The government needs to let people to create their own jobs by reducing the massive self-employment insurance rates .People should do their bit by supporting local businesses instead of China or India economies .Some Ideas would be radical but perhaps local people,businesses getting together and with some sort of guaranty that they are doing their bit ,maybe people will buy from them as well or they should, increasing the amount of products on sale from the country to a specific per cent high enough,priority in any jobs to people in the padron of the area they are living , encourage people to become self-employed and create products for sale in the local shops to sell,cards,artesanal products,fruit and other food products,etc clothes and t-shirts,small furniture and so on and teach children in school to give priority to products from their local area ,then from their country,then from europe ... the issue is that when you dont have money you buy the cheaper products and sometimes the local ones are not cheaper but older people,working people,etc can do their bit too although probably some people will say it is discriminatory,etc ....


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

It's 25% of the active work force. There will be a number of people that have given up looking for work and aren't included in that 25%.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It was on BBC news this morning.

If the way the figures are calculated resemble those in the UK, it will reflect the number signing on for unemployment benefit and will not include those who do not qualify for that benefit or who may be seeking 'casual' work i.e. not the main family breadwinner.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It was on BBC news this morning.
> 
> If the way the figures are calculated resemble those in the UK, it will reflect the number signing on for unemployment benefit and will not include those who do not qualify for that benefit or who may be seeking 'casual' work i.e. not the main family breadwinner.


on the Spanish news it is reported as those 'en paro' - so yes, those 'signing on'

El paro sube en 85.000 personas y la tasa llega al 25,02%, según la EPA | Noticia | Cadena SER


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Yes - I agree. It's not a comfortable place to be when so many Spaniards are suffering and so many self-sufficient immigrants are not. The fact that the immigrants are nearly always of benefit to the local economy will make no difference if law and order breaks down and incomers with money become a target or even just get caught up in the mess. It's nowhere near the time to have a grab bag ready to scarper quick but it's possible that time might come...


As I said at our most enjoyable dinner the other night, I cannot foresee the necessity of bag-packing for imminent flight.

Any breakdown of law and order will be met with a determined show of force and if necessary martial law. Property will be protected. Rioters and looters will be locked up.

I've said many times on this Forum that I fear a hard right coup....and stability and the restoration of law and order will be supported by most people living in Spain, regardless of nationality. History teaches us that.

If the anarchists, revolutionary socialists and their hangers-on prove to be too much of a nuisance they will provoke a severe counter-reaction. They do not and never will have majority support for their brand of politics. The hard and moderate right have always been able to count on the support of the politically non-committed in times of civil disorder.

I fear that martial law is inevitable in Greece- either that or a far-right coup. The odious leader of New Dawn or whatever the neo-Nazi Party is called was boasting on BBC Newsnight last week that his Party had 60% membership of the police and army.

Greece may have been the cradle of democracy but it hasn't proved very capable of actually using it in practice over the centuries of its troubled history.

all over Europe the far right is on the march...another result of neo-liberalism.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> As I said at our most enjoyable dinner the other night, I cannot foresee the necessity of bag-packing for imminent flight.
> 
> Any breakdown of law and order will be met with a determined show of force and if necessary martial law. Property will be protected. Rioters and looters will be locked up.
> 
> ...


Yes I agreed with you the other night and largely do now. I merely feel that Spain might become unpleasant to live in - not really dangerous or impossible although you never know...

You say the far right is mobilising across Europe but I don't sense that that is happening at all in the UK do you? Nick Griffin's BNP has all but disintegrated and I don't see any other contenders. Maybe the UK isn't actually part of Europe in that sense, if any.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> on the Spanish news it is reported as those 'en paro' - so yes, those 'signing on'
> 
> El paro sube en 85.000 personas y la tasa llega al 25,02%, según la EPA | Noticia | Cadena SER


Neither does it include millions of people doing training courses for jobs that don't exist.

There are people in Cadiz, many over 60, doing courses on bricklaying and fishing, despite the fact that most of their neighbours are unemployed bricklayers and fishermen.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

javierch said:


> I think The government needs to let people to create their own jobs by reducing the massive self-employment insurance rates .People should do their bit by supporting local businesses instead of China or India economies .Some Ideas would be radical but perhaps local people,businesses getting together and with some sort of guaranty that they are doing their bit ,maybe people will buy from them as well or they should, increasing the amount of products on sale from the country to a specific per cent high enough,priority in any jobs to people in the padron of the area they are living , encourage people to become self-employed and create products for sale in the local shops to sell,cards,artesanal products,fruit and other food products,etc clothes and t-shirts,small furniture and so on and teach children in school to give priority to products from their local area ,then from their country,then from europe ... the issue is that when you dont have money you buy the cheaper products and sometimes the local ones are not cheaper but older people,working people,etc can do their bit too although probably some people will say it is discriminatory,etc ....


How right you are! When I became self employed in the North of England, my national insurance contributions were £12 a month, what is it here €250, no wonder there is a black economy.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Neither does it include millions of people doing training courses for jobs that don't exist.
> 
> There are people in Cadiz, many over 60, doing courses on bricklaying and fishing, despite the fact that most of their neighbours are unemployed bricklayers and fishermen.


I hadn't thought of that - of course it doesn't.......


a googlead appeared on my screen yesterday for a 'curso INEM'......... it was to train for _tanatomaquillaje*............... 
_
I dare say there'll always be a call for that_...........








*(putting make-up on cadavers before burial)
_


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Yes I agreed with you the other night and largely do now. I merely feel that Spain might become unpleasant to live in - not really dangerous or impossible although you never know...
> 
> You say the far right is mobilising across Europe but I don't sense that that is happening at all in the UK do you? Nick Griffin's BNP has all but disintegrated and I don't see any other contenders. Maybe the UK isn't actually part of Europe in that sense, if any.


Well, apart from a few nutters of far left and right we Brits don't do ideology....We are pragmatists, small c conservatives.

Ideologies are based on abstract concepts that don't fit neatly over the unpredictability and chaos of every-day life. We Brits are too sceptical to be fooled by dinky theories of politics or society that fit neatly together like a jigsaw puzzle. We realise that rationality can take us only so far, that culture, religion and nationality are powerful forces and that humankind is incapable of perfectibility.

That's why imo our domestic history has been largely peaceful. Political fanatics are soon recognised -spot the swivel-eyes- and marginalised or ridiculed. Thatcher's downfall came when she adopted her neo-liberal ideology. People swiftly detected that hint of political insanity.

Continental Europe has been ravaged by violence largely caused by clashes of ideology. In Spain you have your fascists, falangists, anarchists, revolutionary socialists whatever. The non-political or a-political majority are forced to take sides for survival as someone pointed out on another thread.

In the UK there is a disturbing growth of far-right groups...the National Front, the English Defence League, English Democrats...UKIP is not far-right as I would categorise it but undoubtedly attracts the 'respectable' hard righters who find the fore-mentioned groups too 'proletarian'.

The neo-Nazis are on the ascendant in Greece, there are far-right groups in government in the Netherlands, Finland and some Scandinavian countries, many of the former socialist states have well-supported hard right groups...

But imo the real danger lies in France. Marine Le Pen is one shrewd politician. If she succeeds in supplanting the UDP or whatever it's called as the main Party of the Right, trouble looms for the EU. Big trouble, especially as Hollande has proved so disappointing and so inept.

French Corporation Tax is now the highest in Europe, I believe....


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

My daughter has just been laid off after working through the summer on the coast. She's been told that she isn't entitled to anything, despite paying Social Security, because she hadn't had a one-year contract. She has zero income. She will not be included in the official statistics. Heaven only knows how many jobless people there are here. 

I was unexpectedly widowed a couple of years ago, aged 52. I have no employment record here, have neither job, nor benefits, nor pension, from either country (apart from 2000GBP spread over one year from the UK based on hubby's contributions). I have a house that has been on the market for two years and has dropped 40% in price, yet still have received only one viewer (who also has a house to sell). What am I to do? One can only hope that all the 'wanting to move to Spain' brigade read these things and take them on board, rather than moaning about people here being ' so negative'! People here who know the system and speak the language cannot make a living.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Madliz said:


> My daughter has just been laid off after working through the summer on the coast. She's been told that she isn't entitled to anything, despite paying Social Security, because she hadn't had a one-year contract. She has zero income. She will not be included in the official statistics. Heaven only knows how many jobless people there are here.
> 
> I was unexpectedly widowed a couple of years ago, aged 52. I have no employment record here, have neither job, nor benefits, nor pension, from either country (apart from 2000GBP spread over one year from the UK based on hubby's contributions). I have a house that has been on the market for two years and has dropped 40% in price, yet still have received only one viewer (who also has a house to sell). What am I to do? One can only hope that all the 'wanting to move to Spain' brigade read these things and take them on board, rather than moaning about people here being ' so negative'! People here who know the system and speak the language cannot make a living.


dreadful, dreadful situation 

I too was widowed, also very unexpectedly, 9 months ago, at the same age as you - I have 2 teenage daughters in school to support - I too get a small 'widows benefit' from the UK

thankfully we rent - so 'escape' if it came to it, would be easy enough - but I have no plans to do so

thankfully I had been building a business for several years, so we're heads above water - just about - but I dread to think what would have happened to us if I didn't have that business - although since I'm self-employed, if it all fell apart we'd have nothing

we're not negative - it's just the way it is ................................


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2012)

Hello to all, I'm new on the forum. I was in Madrid last year studying for my Diploma de Español como Lengua Extranjera, which I subsequently passed C2. I became addicted to Televisión Española which I still view daily along with Milenio from Mexico. I watched the reporting of the paro (desempleo in Mexico). The incredible thing is the youth sector - I can't recall the actual number but I think the official number of unemployed is over 50% and this includes 20 somethings. I have several spanish friends and they tell me of the really well trained young people that have no opportunity.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

--- said:


> Hello to all, I'm new on the forum. I was in Madrid last year studying for my Diploma de Español como Lengua Extranjera, which I subsequently passed C2. I became addicted to Televisión Española which I still view daily along with Milenio from Mexico. I watched the reporting of the paro (desempleo in Mexico). The incredible thing is the youth sector - I can't recall the actual number but I think the official number of unemployed is over 50% and this includes 20 somethings. I have several spanish friends and they tell me of the really well trained young people that have no opportunity.


yes, it's in the report - for 16 - 24 year olds the national unemployment rate is currently 52% - which is actually down a bit - it was nearer 53% in the previous quarter iirc

and of course many of those have _never _worked


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## LaraMascara (Oct 19, 2012)

This thread is really heartbreaking.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, it's in the report - for 16 - 24 year olds the national unemployment rate is currently 52% - which is actually down a bit - it was nearer 53% in the previous quarter iirc
> 
> and of course many of those have _never _worked


I doubt many who haven't worked are included in the 50% number. A while back I posted a study showing the number of Spanish youth working was around 20% (less?) of the total number.

Some are in school. Some I guess are rich kids playing polo. Some are in prison. So not all the 80% want or are able to work but the number of youth with a job is far less then the unemployment number makes it seem.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> I doubt many who haven't worked are included in the 50% number. A while back I posted a study showing the number of Spanish youth working was around 20% (less?) of the total number.
> 
> Some are in school. Some I guess are rich kids playing polo. Some are in prison. So not all the 80% want or are able to work but the number of youth with a job is far less then the unemployment number makes it seem.


none of them will be in school or doing any study of any kind - these are the NINIs _NI estudian NI_ _trabajan _(they don't work nor study)

yes, I dare say some are rich kids - but don't forget these are official figures of 16-24 year olds who are 'signed on' to paro/unemployment - those in prison won't be included, either

I dare say some _are _working on the black though


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Many from here have emigrated, my friends son is in Perth, Western Australia, he has started a landscape gardening business, and met a very pretty Australian girl!! Another from Asturias is working on a construction project in Melbourne, he has a chemistry degree. Another friends son recently left for Mexico, he is working.

Next year here, is the four yearly island festival of La Bajada, those who have emigrated in the past try to return, we will here many foreign accents even some from the U.S.A.

Traditionally the locals breed and their children leave for other lands.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Where I live, I have seen a large increase in Dads taking their sons to work in the olive groves with them. 

Better than them watching TV all day etc. In one case the family had had high hopes for the son who told us he never wanted to be an olive farmer like his dad! 

I cannot see the situation improving for many years. Migration may help as it did in Ireland etc.


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

*Crisis and Us*



jimenato said:


> Yes - I agree. It's not a comfortable place to be when so many Spaniards are suffering and so many self-sufficient immigrants are not. The fact that the immigrants are nearly always of benefit to the local economy will make no difference if law and order breaks down and incomers with money become a target or even just get caught up in the mess. It's nowhere near the time to have a grab bag ready to scarper quick but it's possible that time might come...


I believe the Spanish will not resort to any type of reprisals. My Spanish friends lay the blame of their crisis at the feet of the bankers and corrupt government officials both nationally and local; they have no bad feelings against foreigners living here and appreciate their fiscal contribution to their economy. I have just moved back here for good after leaving in 2006 when I saw the crisis looming to ensure my youngest son finished his education in the UK where he, (I felt) would have more opportunities. Although like many English kids, was educated in a Spanish school, speaks Spanish/Valenciano we both knew that full intergration in reality is impossible and this area of Costa Blanca proved me right on the work front for young people. Now his friends are asking for advice and help with a view to moving to Uk for work! My Spanish lawyer clearly said that the 25+% of unemployed is not the reality at all, this figure does not take into account the 18-20% of unemployed who do not qualify for registration for benefits because they had no work contracts and live at home... believe me the situation is worse than is reported... no family allowance... no benefits for school meals... no help to purchase school books which costs every spanish family at least 200euro per term per child!!! Be very aware that the intelligenia of Spain are emigrating to Northern Europe/USA/South America and our concerns are not any reprisals but where will the nurses/doctors etc be in 20 years time when I will be in my 70's? I fear for Spain, their young people and old..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Karen58 said:


> I believe the Spanish will not resort to any type of reprisals. My Spanish friends lay the blame of their crisis at the feet of the bankers and corrupt government officials both nationally and local; they have no bad feelings against foreigners living here and appreciate their fiscal contribution to their economy. I have just moved back here for good after leaving in 2006 when I saw the crisis looming to ensure my youngest son finished his education in the UK where he, (I felt) would have more opportunities. Although like many English kids, was educated in a Spanish school, speaks Spanish/Valenciano we both knew that full intergration in reality is impossible and this area of Costa Blanca proved me right on the work front for young people. Now his friends are asking for advice and help with a view to moving to Uk for work! My Spanish lawyer clearly said that the 25+% of unemployed is not the reality at all, this figure does not take into account the 18-20% of unemployed who do not qualify for registration for benefits because they had no work contracts and live at home... believe me the situation is worse than is reported... no family allowance... no benefits for school meals... no help to purchase school books which costs every spanish family at least 200euro per term per child!!! Be very aware that the intelligenia of Spain are emigrating to Northern Europe/USA/South America and our concerns are not any reprisals but where will the nurses/doctors etc be in 20 years time when I will be in my 70's? I fear for Spain, their young people and old..


I think you sum up thesituation very well. All I would add is that many people fail to appreciate their own part in their misfortunes through reckless borrowing of the cheap capital that flooded in after Spain entered the eurozone. But then we rarely like to admit that we are to blame for our misfortunes, whatever they are!

Unemployment in Andalucia is now at 39% apparently. The IMF and EU must recognise that as well as provisding bailouts to national governments and banks -essential to maintain liquidity under current conditions - there must be provision for growth to provide jobs and kickstart the economy.

The markets won't do that...they will penalise any government that borrows to increase public expenditure via higher bond yields.

Only these supranational bodies have the powers and resources to do9 that...and they are funded by our money, a fact often ignored or neglected.


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you sum up thesituation very well. All I would add is that many people fail to appreciate their own part in their misfortunes through reckless borrowing of the cheap capital that flooded in after Spain entered the eurozone. But then we rarely like to admit that we are to blame for our misfortunes, whatever they are!
> 
> Unemployment in Andalucia is now at 39% apparently. The IMF and EU must recognise that as well as provisding bailouts to national governments and banks -essential to maintain liquidity under current conditions - there must be provision for growth to provide jobs and kickstart the economy.
> 
> ...


Ditto to your response: We are all responsible from Europe to USA and the markets generally... I worked in the City for 6 years and witnessed the engine driving us all to this point. I put my hand up too and those of us in our glass houses cannot throw stones eh? My husband is German (engineer) working in England for a French Company (says it all). He despairs for the UK and Southern European countries who cannot see that there are no provisions for the next generation and even though Germany gets it in the neck; its policies and investment in the younger generation is the only option for us all to adopt. Better education focused on the 3 r's/Sciences etc and subsidies for small-medium businesses to take on apprentices and most of all Languages... the world is small... it is imperative that Spanish/German/English is taught to a high standard from 5-6 years. As for Spain: the people are very protective of their culture and for them to achieve the standard of living they witness in Northern Europe they will have to compromise so much... a big awakening is about to happen next year, the fall is due then.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

Karen58 said:


> My Spanish lawyer clearly said that the 25+% of unemployed is not the reality at all, this figure does not take into account the 18-20% of unemployed who do not qualify for registration for benefits because they had no work contracts and live at home... believe me the situation is worse than is reported...


Nor do the figures include people who have jobs but currently aren't receiving a salary. One of my neighbors is a paramedic who has gone without pay for more than 3 months now but is hoping for some reimbursement in December. If he quits he wouldn't be entitled to unemployment benefits, and as there are no other job prospects people like him keep showing up for (volunteer) work.

Here in Castilla-La Mancha, the city where I live has 32% unemployment, but there are plenty of workers like my neighbor who have been "volunteering" for up to a year.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

...... and those working on the black???!

Jo xxx


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

I'm assuming Spain uses the standard EU definition of unemployed. 

Definitions



> aged 15-74 (in ES, IT, SE (1995-2000), UK, IS and NO: 16-74),
> who were without work during the reference week, but currently available for work,
> who were either actively seeking work in the past four weeks or who had already found a job to start within the next three months.


If you're working nero but are looking for work then you're unemployed. The problem is the large numbers that have given up looking for work.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Karen58 said:


> Ditto to your response: We are all responsible from Europe to USA and the markets generally... I worked in the City for 6 years and witnessed the engine driving us all to this point. I put my hand up too and those of us in our glass houses cannot throw stones eh? My husband is German (engineer) working in England for a French Company (says it all). He despairs for the UK and Southern European countries who cannot see that there are no provisions for the next generation and even though Germany gets it in the neck; its policies and investment in the younger generation is the only option for us all to adopt. Better education focused on the 3 r's/Sciences etc and subsidies for small-medium businesses to take on apprentices and most of all Languages... the world is small... it is imperative that Spanish/German/English is taught to a high standard from 5-6 years. As for Spain: the people are very protective of their culture and for them to achieve the standard of living they witness in Northern Europe they will have to compromise so much... a big awakening is about to happen next year, the fall is due then.




Agree with you entirely yet again. I am a great admirer of the German system although of course no system is perfect.

But Germany has managed to combine high wages, high productivity with a high level of social wage and quality public provision.

May I ask..do you post on other Forums? I am finishing my account on this one but would welcome the opportunity for informed debate on social and political issues.

Do you know of any such internet chat sitres devoted exclusively to topical issues where robust but sensible debate takes place?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Karen58 said:


> I believe the Spanish will not resort to any type of reprisals. My Spanish friends lay the blame of their crisis at the feet of the bankers and corrupt government officials both nationally and local; they have no bad feelings against foreigners living here and appreciate their fiscal contribution to their economy. I have just moved back here for good after leaving in 2006 when I saw the crisis looming to ensure my youngest son finished his education in the UK where he, (I felt) would have more opportunities. Although like many English kids, was educated in a Spanish school, speaks Spanish/Valenciano we both knew that full intergration in reality is impossible and this area of Costa Blanca proved me right on the work front for young people. Now his friends are asking for advice and help with a view to moving to Uk for work! My Spanish lawyer clearly said that the 25+% of unemployed is not the reality at all, this figure does not take into account the 18-20% of unemployed who do not qualify for registration for benefits because they had no work contracts and live at home... believe me the situation is worse than is reported... no family allowance... no benefits for school meals... no help to purchase school books which costs every spanish family at least 200euro per term per child!!! Be very aware that the intelligenia of Spain are emigrating to Northern Europe/USA/South America and our concerns are not any reprisals but where will the nurses/doctors etc be in 20 years time when I will be in my 70's? I fear for Spain, their young people and old..



Yes, that is a good summing up and I agree - I have not come across any negativity towards immigrants at all. I am more concerned really that Spain could become an unpleasant or uncomfortable place to be or that innocent people get caught up in trouble - the Americans would call it 'collateral damage'.


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with you entirely yet again. I am a great admirer of the German system although of course no system is perfect.
> 
> But Germany has managed to combine high wages, high productivity with a high level of social wage and quality public provision.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I do not know of any other Forums but am sure they are out there.. stumbled on this Forum when in UK preparing my return.

My husband attended an ICHT awards dinner at the Bank of England, Princess Royal is the patron and was in attendance, Lord Digby Jones the speaker. My husband was nominated for his mentoring of engineering graduates and was so incensed by some of the content of LordDJ's speech, relating to British Industry & contribution & future. After at the drinks reception he could not resist challenging him with Princess A in the group. He reminded LordDJ that he was speaking to an industry awards dinner where the attendees were all European and only one British company left in the field.. that his praise of the Airbus project was not correct as is German led not British etc etc.. and that LordDJ's hopes for a 'Phoenix Rise' of British industry can only be realised with a total redirection of government and investment and that a miracle was needed now. With that Princess Anne applauded him and nodded in agreement..


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you sum up thesituation very well. All I would add is that many people fail to appreciate their own part in their misfortunes through reckless borrowing of the cheap capital that flooded in after Spain entered the eurozone. But then we rarely like to admit that we are to blame for our misfortunes, whatever they are!
> 
> Unemployment in Andalucia is now at 39% apparently. The IMF and EU must recognise that as well as provisding bailouts to national governments and banks -essential to maintain liquidity under current conditions - there must be provision for growth to provide jobs and kickstart the economy.
> 
> ...


Not me. I haven't borrowed any money for ten or more years. haven't got any either. I find it a bit distasteful that Joe Public should take any blame. The banks lent recklessly at (probably) too low rates. They should go to the wall in my opinion. Governments spent too much and borrowed even more. How many voters ten years ago realised the state of affairs? I suspect not many. When McRuin sold the UKs gold at an all time low, how many realised the significance of that then?


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

Well Said!!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

olivefarmer said:


> Not me. I haven't borrowed any money for ten or more years. haven't got any either. I find it a bit distasteful that Joe Public should take any blame. The banks lent recklessly at (probably) too low rates. They should go to the wall in my opinion. Governments spent too much and borrowed even more. How many voters ten years ago realised the state of affairs? I suspect not many. When McRuin sold the UKs gold at an all time low, how many realised the significance of that then?


Neither did I borrow money. I never have and never will.
But millions did. Now savers are being penalised while many -not all - debtors benefit from low interest rates.

People have to be held responsible for their own poor decisions which were undertaken voluntarily, after all. I think part of our current malaise is down to the fact that we are becoming passive, reactors rather than agents. We blame society, the government, the banks...but never our own feckless desire for a bigger house, a holiday home in Spain, a new car, a holiday...

Of course not all are guilty. But when you hear that UK household debt is at 140% of GDP surely you have to seriously consider our current views on borrowing to fund a lifestyle.

Without borrowing I managed to live well enough and enjoy some of the good things in life. I was never in the top income bracket or anywhere near it. But I was brought up to believe that debt of any kind was shameful, something decent working people didn't do and that view has stayed with me.
That and my aversion to paying interest.

And if the banks 'went to the wall', as you suggest, the country would go to the wall with them.
Your pension or salary would not be paid,your savings would disappear, business would grind to a halt, shop tills wouldn't work, ATMs wouldn't work...Disaster. We've allowed banks to grow too big to fail, thanks to MT who deregulated the financial sector. Now bank risk is guaranteed by taxpayers.

We also need to understand that the proposed reclassifying of investment and retail arms of banking is an important reform. No longer can banks use your deposits to fund risky speculative products.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

If you have had a mortgage you borrowed money.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

And if you put money in the bank you lent money


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MaidenScotland said:


> If you have had a mortgage you borrowed money.


Ahh...but I didn't have a mortgage. 

I bought my cottage cash...paid for from my earnings as a freelance translator/interpreter..it needed a lot of work which we did over several years.
I bought it in 1978, a three bedroomed detached cottage, no central heating, no garden....We installed central heating, built an extension, bought a piece of land next door from the owner and brought it up to modern standards.

We sold it in 2006 for a massive profit, even taking into account the cost of modernisation...

I'll try and dig out a photo.

I bought a couple of other houses cheaply for cash, improved them, rented them for a while then sold up. No mortgage.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> And if you put money in the bank you lent money


I would respectfully suggest that is stretching the definition of 'lending'. Customers may have deposited money which the banks may have loaned to other clients but the depositors received interest on the money deposited.

Remember that before 1985 the retail and investment arms of banks were strictly separate. Building Societies didn't function as banks.

I rarely had that much money in the bank anyway.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

That's it. Bought for £5000 1977 or 1978, can't remember which. Three bedrooms, dining room, living room, large bathroom and kitchen. Sold 2006. We cdemolished the garage shortly before we moved to Prague.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2012)

Interesting thread. However, the spanish people have spoken and the PP is dominating politics right now at the national level. That could change over the next years, but right now, the conservative party of budget cuts and balanced budgets is in power.


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Neither did I borrow money. I never have and never will.
> But millions did. Now savers are being penalised while many -not all - debtors benefit from low interest rates.
> 
> People have to be held responsible for their own poor decisions which were undertaken voluntarily, after all. I think part of our current malaise is down to the fact that we are becoming passive, reactors rather than agents. We blame society, the government, the banks...but never our own feckless desire for a bigger house, a holiday home in Spain, a new car, a holiday...
> ...


With all due respect, people of your generation just don't get how the stuff you did when you were young hasn't been possible for years. Of course people took out mortgages - for most people in the UK right now (and for the last couple of decades), it's the ONLY way you could ever afford a house and even then, it's a stretch. The price of property has gone up and up and up (which is why you were able to sell your cottage at such a profit) and wages have hardly risen at all. 

I'm in my late twenties, my partner is 30, we've both been working for years and we still wouldn't qualify for a mortgage, let alone be in a position to pay cash for a property! We left the UK because it was getting to be a struggle to pay the rent. My parents bought a 3-bed semi within a year of finishing university - you'd never be able to do that these days. You were fortunate enough to grow up at a time when normal people could afford to have a decent quality of life and not have to borrow money. It's almost impossible to do that these days unless you were born into money or have a very successful career. 

Society is set up in such a way that getting into debt is almost unavoidable. Going to university costs £9000 a year now and that's just tuition fees. Property prices are way beyond the reach of an average person on an average salary. I don't think it's that most people are greedy and are buying second cars and holiday homes, I think a lot of people need to borrow money for necessities. I was also brought up to save before I spent money and to be responsible with money. That's why I'm very frugal - shop in charity shops, eat cheaply, hardly ever go on holiday. I could still never buy a house with cash, no matter how hard I saved. I only have a small amount of money left over after all the essentials, so saving more than £150-200 a month is impossible. And I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a job. Back home in Ireland, most of my friends are unemployed. 

I just wish people who grew up years ago would understand that the things they took for granted just aren't possible anymore. The UK seems to have this obsession with young people being spoiled and over privileged while the older people toiled and grafted and it just isn't true. Sure, a lot of people might have iPhones (I don't), but what's an iPhone compared to the price of a house or a university education? Most of the young people I know are feeling increasingly desperate and let down. They just want to work and make a living, but it's getting harder and harder to do so.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Clemmie00 said:


> With all due respect, people of your generation just don't get how the stuff you did when you were young hasn't been possible for years. Of course people took out mortgages - for most people in the UK right now (and for the last couple of decades), it's the ONLY way you could ever afford a house and even then, it's a stretch. The price of property has gone up and up and up (which is why you were able to sell your cottage at such a profit) and wages have hardly risen at all.
> 
> I'm in my late twenties, my partner is 30, we've both been working for years and we still wouldn't qualify for a mortgage, let alone be in a position to pay cash for a property! We left the UK because it was getting to be a struggle to pay the rent. My parents bought a 3-bed semi within a year of finishing university - you'd never be able to do that these days. You were fortunate enough to grow up at a time when normal people could afford to have a decent quality of life and not have to borrow money. It's almost impossible to do that these days unless you were born into money or have a very successful career.
> 
> ...


 Actually may I just point out that "ours" and your generation are possibly the only generations who could take out a mortgage relatively easily. My parents, as did most of my friends parents had to move in with their parents when they first got married - it was the done thing way back pre the 70s! Then we had "my" generation who had to save for a minimum 10% deposit on a house, go, suited and booted to see and to grovel to the building society manager. This generation have had it so easy - money, mortgages, cheap loans thrown at them. that is when the rot set in - too much borrowing on too little. I have three daughters in their late twenties and they have everything they could want, clothes, jobs, cars..... One is married and has a mortgage (100% that she got relatively easily) and owns a house in Portugal and the other two rent - but have plenty of disposable income. That said, neither of them has bothered, as previous generations to save for a deposit for a mortgage. Cos THEY ARE from the spoilt generation and admit it!!!

However, this doesnt really have a lot to do with the Spanish situation apart from the over borrowing of money

Jo xxxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Clemmie makes a good point. A 2 up 2 down starter home in our village in Somerset is about 150,000 (I know - I own one). Average salary is 25,000 a year. How is a young couple expected to buy a starter home without a mortgage?


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

jojo said:


> Actually may I just point out that "ours" and your generation are possibly the only generations who could take out a mortgage relatively easily. My parents, as did most of my friends parents had to move in with their parents when they first got married - it was the done thing way back pre the 70s! Then we had "my" generation who had to save for a minimum 10% deposit on a house, go, suited and booted to see and to grovel to the building society manager. This generation have had it so easy - money, mortgages, cheap loans thrown at them. that is when the rot set in - too much borrowing on too little. I have three daughters in their late twenties and they have everything they could want, clothes, jobs, cars..... One is married and has a mortgage (100% that she got relatively easily) and owns a house in Portugal and the other two rent - but have plenty of disposable income. That said, neither of them has bothered, as previous generations to save for a deposit for a mortgage. Cos THEY ARE from the spoilt generation and admit it!!!
> 
> However, this doesnt really have a lot to do with the Spanish situation apart from the over borrowing of money
> 
> Jo xxxx


You've totally missed the point. That is, you COULD save for a 10% deposit on a house. I only know of person in a position to buy and she's 30. As it is, her parents have paid the deposit because there's no way she could afford it. For a very average semi in the UK, I was told I needed a deposit of £35,000. How on earth am I supposed to save that? When I have no more than £200 a month for savings? I don't see how I'd ever be able to do that in my life. 

Your daughters might be borrowing money for silly things but I never have and neither have most people I know. I really don't think there's much choice but to get into debt nowadays. I don't mean credit card debt, I mean mortgages, education...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Clemmie00 said:


> You've totally missed the point. That is, you COULD save for a 10% deposit on a house. I only know of person in a position to buy and she's 30. As it is, her parents have paid the deposit because there's no way she could afford it. For a very average semi in the UK, I was told I needed a deposit of £35,000. How on earth am I supposed to save that? When I have no more than £200 a month for savings? I don't see how I'd ever be able to do that in my life.
> 
> Your daughters might be borrowing money for silly things but I never have and neither have most people I know. I really don't think there's much choice but to get into debt nowadays. I don't mean credit card debt, I mean mortgages, education...


No, my daughters dont borrow money for silly things, they waste their own money! Had they not have done, by their own admission, they could have bought properties by now with their partners So TOUGH is my answer to them lol. The idea of a single person buying a place was more or less unheard of "in my day" but youngsters seem to expect it now and are annoyed when they cant - two incomes are better than one. There are still places offering 90% even 100% mortgages as my eldest has recently done with her new husband

In the end things change, property ownership isnt "all that" anymore anyway - it isnt the investment it used to be, in fact it can turn into a negative equity situation if property prices drop - and dont forget 50 years ago, as I pointed out in my last post, folk usually stayed with their parents, got married and didnt stand a hope of property ownership and would live with their parents! 

Jo xxx


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

jojo said:


> No, my daughters dont borrow money for silly things, they waste their own money! Had they not have done, by their own admission, they could have bought properties by now with their partners So TOUGH is my answer to them lol. The idea of a single person buying a place was more or less unheard of "in my day" but youngsters seem to expect it now and are annoyed when they cant - two incomes are better than one. There are still places offering 90% even 100% mortgages as my eldest has recently done with her new husband
> 
> In the end things change, property ownership isnt "all that" anymore anyway - it isnt the investment it used to be, in fact it can turn into a negative equity situation if property prices drop - and dont forget 50 years ago, as I pointed out in my last post, folk usually stayed with their parents, got married and didnt stand a hope of property ownership and would live with their parents!
> 
> Jo xxx


There is a lot of validity in both arguments: The whole buy your own home was a trend started by Maggie Thatcher which was initiated by the USA Ronald Reagan administration. Her famous quote 'There is no such thing as soceity', allowing those who really could not afford to committ to mortgages to buy their own local authority homes etc gave everyone the green light to borrow and buy more debt with the governments approval. Coming back to Spain, the same happened here in the late 70's and 80's with the tourist boom (post Franco). Blame cannot be apportioned... there is no doubt us 'baby boomers' (I was born 58) had it much easier than our children and no argument against them stands up. My son is 29 and our home town of Brighton is London by the sea and the wages have not gone up since 1995 and that is a fact!! I got a job for Eurostat then as a supervisor in their finance dept at 14k pa... and now when you look at agencies the same salaries are offered! My kids stand no chance... when I was younger I could find a job on a Monday after leaving a job at least 2 weeks before. We have to stand up for our young people in all of Europe... back-biting is a waste of oxygen. We are fortunate and that is that.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Karen58 said:


> There is a lot of validity in both arguments: The whole buy your own home was a trend started by Maggie Thatcher which was initiated by the USA Ronald Reagan administration. Her famous quote 'There is no such thing as soceity', allowing those who really could not afford to committ to mortgages to buy their own local authority homes etc gave everyone the green light to borrow and buy more debt with the governments approval. Coming back to Spain, the same happened here in the late 70's and 80's with the tourist boom (post Franco). Blame cannot be apportioned... there is no doubt us 'baby boomers' (I was born 58) had it much easier than our children and no argument against them stands up. My son is 29 and our home town of Brighton is London by the sea and the wages have not gone up since 1995 and that is a fact!! I got a job for Eurostat then as a supervisor in their finance dept at 14k pa... and now when you look at agencies the same salaries are offered! My kids stand no chance... when I was younger I could find a job on a Monday after leaving a job at least 2 weeks before. We have to stand up for our young people in all of Europe... back-biting is a waste of oxygen. We are fortunate and that is that.


I-m a baby boomer born in 64 and I didnt have it easier than my kids ( ican remember the struggle to get together our deposit) Interestingly, we live just up the road from Brighton in Worthing. My daughters work as cabin crew from Gatwick and therefore their wages arent bad, one daughters fiance works in a factory in Worthing and he earns a very good wage, they choose not to buy right now cos they, by their own admission dont want to save for a mortgage, dont want the commitment and as house prices arent doing anything spectacular they cant see the point


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

Some years ago I said to friends that the situation re. house prices in GB couldn´t possibly continue. If the first time buyers cannot afford to buy then the house market would stall. But people were still willing to out-bid each other for properties they couldn´t really afford but could borrow money for and prices kept rising. And look at the situation now!

A little time later I also said to friends that the property market in Spain would also come to a halt. We were in La Cala, near Benidorm, at the time and they were throwing up many high rise buildings. I said that they would never be able to sell them, not only because of the price they were asking for them but also because they were not an attractive proposition for many people. The relatively small number of foreign buyers had a choice of properties all over the costas and could ignore these high rise buildings. I would imagine that many of them are still standing empty eight years later. And this was happening all over the costas. BUT still a FEW people were willing to pay a high price for a property and so the building continued, and now Spain also is in the same situation as everywhere else that relied on the property market.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Clemmie00 said:


> With all due respect, people of your generation just don't get how the stuff you did when you were young hasn't been possible for years. Of course people took out mortgages - for most people in the UK right now (and for the last couple of decades), it's the ONLY way you could ever afford a house and even then, it's a stretch. The price of property has gone up and up and up (which is why you were able to sell your cottage at such a profit) and wages have hardly risen at all.
> 
> I'm in my late twenties, my partner is 30, we've both been working for years and we still wouldn't qualify for a mortgage, let alone be in a position to pay cash for a property! We left the UK because it was getting to be a struggle to pay the rent. My parents bought a 3-bed semi within a year of finishing university - you'd never be able to do that these days. You were fortunate enough to grow up at a time when normal people could afford to have a decent quality of life and not have to borrow money. It's almost impossible to do that these days unless you were born into money or have a very successful career.
> 
> ...


I don't know how old you think I am but yes, I know all about the struggles people of all ages have these days to put a decent roof over their heads. I was Director of a Social Housing Association so I know all about the pressures of finding a decent, affordable home. I was also until recently an education trades union activist so I am aware of the situation regarding young people in education and training..

When I said I hadn't borrowed money I did not specifically refer to mortgages -someone else did and I replied that I bought my house cash. Not everyone would want to buy what was a totally unmodernised cottage with a standpipe for water supply, small coal fire, no bathroom and so on and I don't blame them. At one time during the modernisation process we considered moving upstairs and pulling up the ladder after us for security...we had no staircase and no outside door at that time! I was referring to the kind of credit card debt, remortgaging and so on that very many people did in the 1980s onwards when it became possible.

Household debt excluding mortgages has risen to unsustainable levels in the UK.That is undeniable. Of course not all of it was used for frivolities. But debt became acceptable and bankruptcy no longer a cause of some shame but just a way of getting out of paying one's debts.

My generation actually had very few 'things they took for granted'. The kind of gadgetry that you can find in most UK homes wasn't around when I was your age. The explosion in the living standards of most working people occurred in the 1980s onwards.
Cheap foreign holidays, second homes in Spain, new cars, fancy hi-fis and tvs, 'lifestyle' and designer fashions, home computers and mobile phones...all these were simply not the norm before the mid 1980s or even later.

Yes, life is tough for young people nowadays. But expectations are higher than when I was twenty and it's disappointing, to say the least, that they can no longer be easily fulfilled. But the Welfare State ensures that nobody starves, there is free education and medical care for all...my mother's generation had none of these things. My grandmother's generation lived through two world wars and years of mass unemployment with no welfare safety net. Part of the reason young people find it so hard is that we've moved on a lot in the past thirty years, in many ways for the better, in others much for the worse.

Many people with huge debts are now benefitting from low interest rates. Most people who worked and saved so that they would not need to be supported in their old age by your generation are seeing inflation aka Quantitive Easing -printing money- and low interest rates pushing many into the kind of dependency they tried hard to avoid.

Being debt -and risk - adverse is my personal choice. I was constantly urged by UK friends to move to a bigger house, buy a smarter car and so on. My choice was not to. They found themselves with debt and negative equity. I sat tight and made a profit. My choice, their choice.

Playing off one generation against another is pointless. I feel equally for the young and for those retirees less well-off than I -and I'm no plutocrat. 
What we should be doing is working together to ensure our governments are responsive to the needs of ALL people.



So much for my decision to have my account deleted...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So much for my decision to have my account deleted...


:clap2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So much for my decision to have my account deleted...




you didn't ask did you ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> So much for my decision to have my account deleted...


 DONT YOU EFFING DARE!! This forum wouldnt be the same without you!!!!!!!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, I did ask....but I've had really nice messages. I'm sorry if the way I express my views offends but that's my style, evolved after decades of political involvement. If people take what I write personally, that's their problem imo. I am happy to be replied to in robust terms. If people can accept that I''m happy to stay as I enjoy this Forum. It's a good substitute for the kind of active political life I've led.

Back to topic.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about debt is this, as I see it.
Over the past couple of decades the gap between most of us and those at the top has widened to an unacceptable level. The uber-rich have actually increased their share of wealth while the rest of us, of all age groups, have seen ours decline.

One of the ways in which this gap has been made to appear more acceptable is by enabling the 'good things' of life to be purchased by us plebs by means of cheap credit. It's so bad to see some plutocrat cruise past you in a Rolls-Royce when you're standing shivering at the bus stop in pouring rain. But if you can cruise past some other poor sod in your credit-bought BMW it's not so bad, you don't feel so hard done by.

Some might say that this was a deliberate ploy by the wealthy to keep us quiet about the huge inequalities in our society. A kind of twenty-first century bread and circuses. I don't know.

All I know is that I deeply mourn the disapperaing moral codes of my childhood in a 'poor but honest' family as the daughter of a widowed mother who scrubbed floors for a living - in her view more dignified that staying home and living on what she saw as 'handouts'.
When I was a teenager I rebelled against the family and community norms where 'respectability' was a household god. Getting a good education, being 'clean and decent' -that had sexual connotations too- being sober and industrious....these were and had for a long time been the codes of poorer families.

I blame the free market, the 'no such thing as society' credo for obliterating that ethos.
Mrs T. was right there....her policies killed community, social cohesion and 'respectability' and replaced them with fragmentation, loss of identity and worship of money.

Sorry if that upset anyone...


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I did ask....but I've had really nice messages. I'm sorry if the way I express my views offends but that's my style, evolved after decades of political involvement. If people take what I write personally, that's their problem imo. I am happy to be replied to in robust terms. If people can accept that I''m happy to stay as I enjoy this Forum. It's a good substitute for the kind of active political life I've led.
> 
> Back to topic.
> 
> ...


Do stop apologizing Mary, you really have nothing to apologize for IMO (glad you're still here BTW 

And, we have another thing in common (apart for our Lion Hounds) my ole mum was a floor scrubber too (office cleaner, if you don't mind!) she used clean a large office over in Smithfield Meat Market, she'd take me with her occasionally and I would 'borrow' a few pens now n' again 

My father died when I was just 9 years young and my ole mum had 6 saucepan lids, 4 of whom were still at home, she deserved a medal really but of course I only realize that now .. it's too late!

Raining again here in sunny Cornwall, rain yesterday, rain tomorrow etc, etc. etc 
Ya gotta strong to live somewhere like this (on the moor) I think ... or mad!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

virgil said:


> Do stop apologizing Mary, you really have nothing to apologize for IMO (glad you're still here BTW
> 
> And, we have another thing in common (apart for our Lion Hounds) my ole mum was a floor scrubber too (office cleaner, if you don't mind!) she used clean a large office over in Smithfield Meat Market, she'd take me with her occasionally and I would 'borrow' a few pens now n' again
> 
> ...


What a coincidence...I'm guessing your old mum lived in the London EC1 area?
My ex-ma-in-law Nellie lived in St.Johns Street, which as you'll know stretched from the Angel to Smithfield...My ex pa-in-law was a copper, of the old-school, based in Stepney. He was present at the Battle of Cable Street where the East End stopped Mosley marching.

I love that part of London...you'll remember that gem of a church tucked away....St Batholomews, I think it was called...
When I was a Rabid Red I used to frequent Clerkenwell Green, home of the Marx Memorial Library..

It's changed so much...We used to shop at Exmouth Street Market and Chapel Market. Exmouth Street has changed completely. All gentrified.

Ahh..sic transit Gloria Swanson, as Terry Wogan once memorably said..

My mum scrubbed the local Post Office...


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> What a coincidence...I'm guessing your old mum lived in the London EC1 area?
> My ex-ma-in-law Nellie lived in St.Johns Street, which as you'll know stretched from the Angel to Smithfield...My ex pa-in-law was a copper, of the old-school, based in Stepney. He was present at the Battle of Cable Street where the East End stopped Mosley marching.
> 
> I love that part of London...you'll remember that gem of a church tucked away....St Batholomews, I think it was called...
> ...


Nay lass ... I'm from sowf lunden Southwark/Bermondsey, a cockney! (born in 52) moved to Camberwell in the early 60's, then back to Great Dover St., got married & moved to Walworth, then New Kent Rd. then Bankside next to The Tate Mod, then St. Leonard's 'on Sea', Tenerife next, then Cornwall for the last 15 years, then ... ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Heck, how much further off topic can we go here lol!!!! I've learnt how to move things about, so I may stick the "nostalgia posts onto the other one in La Tasca - in a while. Busy, busy busy today 

Jo xxxx


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## Karen58 (Aug 1, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I did ask....but I've had really nice messages. I'm sorry if the way I express my views offends but that's my style, evolved after decades of political involvement. If people take what I write personally, that's their problem imo. I am happy to be replied to in robust terms. If people can accept that I''m happy to stay as I enjoy this Forum. It's a good substitute for the kind of active political life I've led.
> 
> Back to topic.
> 
> ...


You have just confirmed my last thread and I applaud your fothrrightness... harsh but true... I come from a poor background of a mother who turned her back on a failed marriage and went it alone in the early 60's working every hour as no benefits available. All the credo you mentioned sustained here till ill-health hit her... then I went out to work after school at 13 years of age to assist... but I wanted better.. climbed the property ladder and find myself here... debt paid... but at 54 years discovered have paid in 41 years of NI... job done! As for MrsT she failed all females in the UK let alone soceity.... she had the golden opportunity to leave a legacy for us girls at least... lets see what her DCameron does eh?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Karen58 said:


> You have just confirmed my last thread and I applaud your fothrrightness... harsh but true... I come from a poor background of a mother who turned her back on a failed marriage and went it alone in the early 60's working every hour as no benefits available. All the credo you mentioned sustained here till ill-health hit her... then I went out to work after school at 13 years of age to assist... but I wanted better.. climbed the property ladder and find myself here... debt paid... but at 54 years discovered have paid in 41 years of NI... job done! As for MrsT she failed all females in the UK let alone soceity.... she had the golden opportunity to leave a legacy for us girls at least... lets see what her DCameron does eh?


I'm not holding my breath...

As someone once said, Mrs. T may have been a woman but she wasn't a sister....

Your background sounds a bit like mine. I went to work as soon as I was thirteen as a Woolworths Saturday girl. Then I got ambitious and when I was fifteen went to work in school and uni holidays as a silver service waitress in a large Jewish hotel. Tbh I think I enjoyed that job more than being a translator/interpreter.
But I was young....


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