# Newby with a land question



## phredo

I like to vegetable garden, and one reason why I would like to move down south is be to be able to garden more than I do now, that is, live on a larger piece of land than my present (almost) half acre lot.

But my experience in visiting Mexico over the years is that most residences are on quite small, by US standards, lots, perhaps about 200 sq. meters, and that larger places are not shown by most realtors and are owned by wealthy large-scale farmers in areas where nobody is living residentially. So my question is, does anyone have experience living where there are smallish farms, like one or two hectares that are close enough to some sort of town or community, the more cultured the better. (And of course, reasonably priced.)


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## RVGRINGO

Farmers don't usually live on their farms in Mexico, unless they are huge and have many employees for security. Crops and/or cattle are often guarded by a low paid person while the farmer lives in town. We have a dairyman living in the alleyway beside our home and we hear him loading his milk cans every morning at 6:30. Another reason that will give you pause is the price of land. Much of Mexico is 'ejido' and not available. In our area, an acre of land runs from $45,000 to $100,000 USD or even more, in some prime locations. Our less than 1/3 acre is considered huge in Chapala.


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## phredo

Yeah, I know that, more or less. But that's why I'm asking if maybe there are places where people still live on small holdings. After all, before agribusiness became the norm, many Mexicans lived on small landholdings where they raised their own food. (And sorry for the "expat in mexico' label. One really doesn't get the choice to say anything else.)


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## mexliving

*mex farming...*

farming is huge in mexico..... the prices rvgringo has posted are based in chapala...... i would say they are above average and over priced.

i have a friend that is farming some hectars.... your idea is truly a great one... since there is a benefit to living down here and not eating the typical foods that contain lots of conservatives. i have read some posts of people with bad health moving down here and after some months feeling healthier due to their new diet.
farming land would be out of the major cities thus costing far less then expecting.... you could even find an area to rent and farm.... it will take some searching....
many fertile farming land is simply not used because people just dont want to farm... (too much work).
sinaloa or sonora i believe its just full of farming......from one end to the other....
i will ask some people down here how feaceable it would be to find a ranch or farm to rent.....


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## sparks

phredo said:


> Yeah, I know that, more or less. But that's why I'm asking if maybe there are places where people still live on small holdings. After all, before agribusiness became the norm, many Mexicans lived on small landholdings where they raised their own food.


I don't know how far you are going back but 'agrabusiness' was alive and well in the haciendas and Spanish land owners. Most Mexican farmers were only able to work on the haciendas until the Ejido system was established in the 1930's. Removing land from the Ejido (normalizing it) is usually only done when realestate values rise like on the coast or a town is expanding.

I know people that have purchased 20-30 acres on the coast and in the Patzcuaro area but it was not cheap and they may have had to use a 'presta nombre' or form a corporation. Renting may be your best bet but finding something with a livable house?? I would find an area you like and start looking in person


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## phredo

I lived for a while on the Big Island of Hawaii, on the Kona coast. Many of the old time residents lived on 3-7 acre "homestead" types of places in modest homes, nicknamed "coffee shacks", growing much of their own vegetables and fruit, keeping a few chickens, and raising a cash crop, e.g., coffee, to pay at least some of their expenses. My feeling is that many people all over the world still live like this, although as people leave the land and move into cities, fewer and fewer do.

I'm not wanting to "farm", exactly, and since I use hand tools mostly for gardening, I wouldn't have use for more than an acre or two, although an extra acre or two would give room for more fruit trees and open space. I think many Mexicans used to, at least, live like this, although I know that many, perhaps a majority, worked on large farms. As I understand it, the ejido system was set up to help many of those who formerly worked for large haciendas to get their own small piece of land.

I realize that the usual Mexican land use around cities is to live more concentrated than US style, without large suburban style plots. Probably most places are not like the US in this regard. When there are places like that in Mexican cities they are probably very expensive. My idea to to try to find a place where there are still some people living on their small plots, where they might not be too far from a bus stop into a town, or better yet, within walking distance, and where there might be a place to buy, wiith enough tolerance for strangers that one could live there, hang out there, go into town from time to time, etc. It's not much different in concept from what is sometimes called a "hobby farm", except that my wife and I would like to produce a fair amount of our food from it.

Thanks for the responses so far, and I hope to hear more.

Fred


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## sparks

Small towns all over Mexico that you could live just outside of. The further out you are the cheaper for renting or buying. Very little you can't find in most towns unless you need to visit the occational 'big box' store for tools or electronics. That may be a day trip or overnighter by bus

I would start with the kind of climate you want and what you need to grow. Bananas don't grow well at 7000 feet but grow like weeds on the coast. Cold or chilly and dry inland in the winter. Hot and humid on the coasts in the summer. Summers are wet everywhere

Again ... I would come down to an area that sounds interesting, stay for a few months, and explore the area. There is no guarantee of acceptance even in gringoized areas .... let alone out in the country. You are a stranger, a foreigner, have more money than most and may not speak Spanish well enough to even get around. Most gringos never really 'fit in' but are just tolerated


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## mexliving

i would also suggest that any ejidal community would welcome you and allow you to rent some hectars for farming.... normally ejidatios meet once a month on the last sunday of the month


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## RVGRINGO

BANANAS!!!! We're at 5200 feet and are overflowing with bananas. Just gave away two more buckets full to neighbors today. Now the Hass avocados are starting to ripen and we'll be giving them away soon. One can only eat so much guacamole or 'aguacate con atun'!


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## El Toro Furioso

RV, definitely was a joke based on food with conservatives instead of preservatives. No politics intended.


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## RVGRINGO

I thought so, but didn't want some other moderator to jump on both of us.
Of course, the British or French ones might have thought we were talking about jam.
This forum is hosted in London, UK, and I have to try to be bilingual.


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## phredo

Thanks especially to sparks and mexliving. I had never considered the idea of negotiating with an ejido to rent land from them. Although our Spanish is not too bad, living on an ejido would be sure to raise it up a few notches! And I think you are right about just going somewhere to live for a while where we like the general situation. I've visited Mexico for years and many times, but always as a tourist for just a few weeks, and traveling most of that time. This year, now that we are both retired, we are going to go to, I think, Mazatlan for two months. Hopefully that will give me enough time to start exploring some of the smaller places, like Copala, for example, and see what its like there.


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## El Toro Furioso

Comprendo. Malapropisms can be a source of great amusement, though, no?


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## RVGRINGO

Phredo is doomed if they head for Copala. One should go there at the great risk to their wellbeing and waistline. After all, where else in Mexico can one eat banana cream pie three times a day?.......Even more, if you wish. Of course, the gardening isn't so good there, is it?


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## phredo

I thought Copala was just a place where they make furniture. Sounds like a place with a history.


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## RVGRINGO

Concordia, just downhill and east of Copala, makes more furniture than Copala, a small dead mining town with diminishing population. It is a 'tourist trap' stop in the winter, but otherwise is very, very poor and unbearably hot in the late summer through September. I think you would feel terribly isolated and find little to do. Sadly, the children there have been taught to beg and are really pests. Concordia, on the other hand, is cleaner and more prosperous and you might consider it as an alternative; although the weather won't be much different. It has some shopping and is closer to the coast and Mazatlan, etc. Admittedly, when we visit Mazatlan, we do go to Copala just to have lunch at 'Davids' (he's now retired to Mazatlan and the restaurant is a co-op) and to have some of that famous banana cream pie. What an anachronism in Mexico! Other than scenery, the town has little else to offer anyone other than a loner or a near hermit.


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## phredo

You know, I do believe I mixed up the names. I always get the names mixed up, and I looked at a large scale internet map and picked out Copala by mistake. I meant Concordia. I remember Copala, pretty little place but very quiet, and probably not a place I would want to live.


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## RVGRINGO

Yes, Concordia would make more sense to me. It is a rather neat and clean little town. Of course, I sure hope your Spanish is really good and that you can afford another place to escape the late summer heat somewhere in the interior highlands.


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## mexijo

What's your budget and how rural can it get? You can buy land 15 minutes outside of Oaxaca City at about 5 USD/m2 - no ejido but private property. In other parts of the country it will be cheaper, in others a lot more expensive. What is your favourite climate zone to farm?


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## caseyh

I know this is a dead post but maybe it will come back to life.

I was recently in a tourist free part of Quintana Roo near Chetumal and was offered a 5 hectare titled property for $5000 and/or a 20 hectare ejido property for $10,000. I did NO research to determine if these properties were legitimate but I have friends in the area that said similar offers are common. 

The reason I mention it is that most of the Yucatan Peninsula has terrible soil (pure limestone) and lots of raw land. This may be driving the price down. Terrible soil sounds bad but farming and gardening are very different...you can put a lot more effort into a garden. If you were willing to work the soil a lot (move around lots of organic matter) you could probably have a beautiful garden. 

Compared to other tropical regions the area is pretty bleak agriculturally speaking but coconuts, peppers and star fruit do great.Lots of other crops are grown at small scale. Plus the Maya have a million or more tricks up their sleeves.


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## phredo

Revive the thread, si.

Implied in your post, but to state it specifically, Yucatan seems to still have a lot of people engaged in subsistence farming, while other parts of Mexico seem given over to agribusiness. And that's nice for learning from and mixing with neighbors who garden/farm.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=caseyh;2258609]I know this is a dead post but maybe it will come back to life.

I was recently in a tourist free part of Quintana Roo near Chetumal and was offered a 5 hectare titled property for $5000 and/or a 20 hectare ejido property for $10,000. I did NO research to determine if these properties were legitimate but I have friends in the area that said similar offers are common. 

The reason I mention it is that most of the Yucatan Peninsula has terrible soil (pure limestone) and lots of raw land. This may be driving the price down. Terrible soil sounds bad but farming and gardening are very different...you can put a lot more effort into a garden. If you were willing to work the soil a lot (move around lots of organic matter) you could probably have a beautiful garden. 

Compared to other tropical regions the area is pretty bleak agriculturally speaking but coconuts, peppers and star fruit do great.Lots of other crops are grown at small scale. Plus the Maya have a million or more tricks up their sleeves.[/QUOTE]_

A couple of questions, Casey.

* When you say a "tourist free" part of Qunitana Roo are you implying that the land you were offered was outside of the restricted zones determined by distance from the sea or the Belize border and , therefore, you could holld the land in fee simple? Do you have any idea how unbelievably hot and miserable the back country can be in Quintana Roo away from the coast and in the back scrub forest?
* Are you aware that purchasing ejido land is a dicey proposition and subject to all sorts of complications which could result in your forfeiting the rights to the "purchased" property at any time in the future due to changes in ejido councils or judicial powers yet to come about at any time down the line? 
* Your concern about the fecundity of the peminsula´s limestone soil makes me wonder if you plan to farm ror garden ( a better idea as you state) this tract you may purchase. What is your goal?
* The inland "farmland" in Quintana Roo is as hot as hades, covered with pathetic scrub forests and, as you noted, generally consists of porous limestone devoid of rivers with reservoirs of water lagely consisting of occasional sinkholes known as cenotes. That is among the reaons this extremely poverty stricken land was so isolated that Mexico tried to sell the peninsula to the Confederate States of America back in the 19th Century. 

I´ll bet you can get a hell of a deal down there which is one of the reasons Quintana Roo was simply a largely unnhabited territory without developed roadways until the 1950s and the only towns of any consequence at all were Chetumal. and Felipe Carrillo Puerto.


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## Hound Dog

A corrction to my just posted comments. The only towns of any consequence in this desolate Quinta aRoo territorial region in the 1950s were Chetumal, Felipe Carrillo Puerto and, perhaps, Bacalar. Maybe the old port of Puerto Morelos as well. Tulum is an old town but then as now, not of consequence but a great place to visit. Cancun was an isolated and virtually uninhabited swampland. 

All along the Riviera Maya they have pushed the indigenous back into the hot scrublands after buying up their Caribbean beachfront holdings, an unpleasant situation in my view.


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## Hound Dog

_[


phredo said:



Revive the thread, si.

Implied in your post, but to state it specifically, Yucatan seems to still have a lot of people engaged in subsistence farming, while other parts of Mexico seem given over to agribusiness. And that's nice for learning from and mixing with neighbors who garden/farm.

Click to expand...

_Where, pray tell, do you come up with that notion, phredo? There are indeed large parts of Mexico that have been "given over" to agribusiness such as much of Puebla and Guanajauato States among otherv regions but most of the farming in Chiapas and Oaxaca is what you are calling "subsistence" farming and those "milpas" turn out some of the most wonderful vegetables on the planet produced by what we in the United State would have called mom-and-pop farms. In fact, Chaipas and Oaxaca are certainly much richer farmlands than the Yucatan - no comparison. Nothing personal but that was an absurd stetement on your part.


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## caseyh

By tourist free I mean tourists dont really go there. Hence the value is not inflated like norther Quintana Roo (yet..although the little bit of swamp waterfront in the area just recently skyrocketed 50-100 fold). Its not that far from the coast but its off the main roads. Its kinda hidden from the ****** trail for reasons I only partially understand...north of Calderitas and Chetumal.

Yes I know all about the risks of buying ejido land. Not from experience but I am well read on the horror stories. I think I may go for it anyway. I won't know until I find a specific property and talk to the ejido and a notario but I think the process is different everywhere and "normalizing". From what I can tell once land begins its exodus from the ejido it passes through many different levels of private. Each level away from the ejido has less and less risks associated with it (parcels, procede etc) but like I said I think it is still different everywhere. Most of the horror stories seem to have some terrible flaw...the guy died, they had no notario, it was never a real sale (power of attorney) etc. If I get a good feeling I may bite. Lots of things to consider. 

My goals? Tiny AND Too big for my own good, all at the same time. First and foremost I am looking to escape from the USA. I have not felt at home here since I first went to Latin America. I want a small permaculture property where I can grow fruit trees and experiment with "alternative agriculture" and "appropriate technologies" like aquaponics, biochar, container gardens, creative composts, methane digesters, etc.. Finally, I want to teach locals how to benefit from these technologies. In the end I want to have a npo that helps"off the beaten path" travelers build and distribute these technologies to remote impoverished communities. When you think about it, the fact that the area has terrible soil is a benefit in disguise for this type of project. Agriculture aside, I settled on the region because I am starting a sea kayaking company that will someday morph into a "lets go somewhere cool and help people company". Its a "if you build it they will come" kinda dream. 

About me. I am a biologist that fell in love with sustainable agriculture and the Latin Tropics. I am also a river guide and divemaster with 15 years guide/hospitality experience. I recently established an online income that has given me the freedom to pursue my dreams. I have very little savings but money keeps coming in (and going out too fast in this expensive country) so the faster/cheaper I can get the title the sooner I can get started.


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## caseyh

I don't think he meant all other parts of Mexico. Just that some have. Also that the Riviera Maya was taken over more by tourism than agribusiness. 

I have been surprised at the tone of this tread all along. It makes it sound like nobody has a small holding in Mexico anymore. I know very little about places north of the Yucatan but that tradition is alive and well all places I have ever been farther south.


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## caseyh

Hound Dog said:


> A corrction to my just posted comments. The only towns of any consequence in this desolate Quinta aRoo territorial region in the 1950s were Chetumal, Felipe Carrillo Puerto and, perhaps, Bacalar. Maybe the old port of Puerto Morelos .


Thats great history. 

I know you were refereeing to Quintana Roo but how about other parts of the Peninsula like Merida or Valladolid? It seems like they must have been big, but were they connected (Chetumal and Merida)...it seems like they are very different.


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## phredo

Hound Dog said:


> _[_
> 
> Where, pray tell, do you come up with that notion, phredo? There are indeed large parts of Mexico that have been "given over" to agribusiness such as much of Puebla and Guanajauato States among otherv regions but most of the farming in Chiapas and Oaxaca is what you are calling "subsistence" farming and those "milpas" turn out some of the most wonderful vegetables on the planet produced by what we in the United State would have called mom-and-pop farms. In fact, Chaipas and Oaxaca are certainly much richer farmlands than the Yucatan - no comparison. Nothing personal but that was an absurd stetement on your part.


Gee, H.D., I guess finding two other states with small scale farming really blows me out of the water! Sorry to be so "absurd". But you are right, of course. I had in mind many of the places I have traveled through over the years, where I've seen the movement from "the land" to increasingly crowded cities, in the northwest and Bajio. I would probably myself prefer the more temperate climate and rich land in Oaxaca and Chiapas, but I haven't been there in a while. I did visit Yucatan a few years ago and was struck by how much subsistence farming there still seemed to be, mostly by seeing from the bus people's small houses with corn piled up outside and what looked to be small plots of farmland nearby. That's all.


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## phredo

caseyh said:


> Thats great history.
> 
> I know you were refereeing to Quintana Roo but how about other parts of the Peninsula like Merida or Valladolid? It seems like they must have been big, but were they connected (Chetumal and Merida)...it seems like they are very different.


A place I visited that seemed like it might be nice to live in was the area around Ticul, south of Merida, near Uxmal and the range of hills (I forget their name) in that part of Yucatan. Another thing I like about Yucatan, and this is purely from the point of view of someone living in California who doesn't get to be in Mexico as often as he would like, is that there are several online real estate websites with pictures and descriptions, although I haven't seen much on those sites in the region I'm talking about.


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## sparks

To buy Ejido property, coastal or not, you need a presta nombre and a carta de poder (borrowed Mexican name and a power of attorney). Dealing with an Ejido is easier/safer where lots of foreigners are using that method. Ejido politics will be settled and agreed upon if it's a common practice. When an Ejido wants to normalize they announce it to the community and wait for a large number of applicants that can be submitted at once. Problem is normalization costs money and all back taxes have to be paid along with all water/sewer bills. Poor Mexicans just leave it in the Ejido.

Very expensive to bring electricity into isolated land ... and very expensive solar if you need to pump water from a well.


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## RVGRINGO

A well? Not without permits and fees forever.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=caseyh;2259017]Thats great history. 

I know you were refereeing to Quintana Roo but how about other parts of the Peninsula like Merida or Valladolid? It seems like they must have been big, but were they connected (Chetumal and Merida)...it seems like they are very different.[/QUOTE]_

I have a Humble Oil roadmap of Mexico from 1953 which breaks down highways in the country as "paved or oiled", "all weather dirt roads" and "dry weather dirt roads". The only paved (or oiled) roads on the peninsula go from the west to Mérida and then up to Progreso qnd Telchac Puerto and then east to just outside of Chichen-Itza. From Chichen-Itza to Vallodolid is mostly an all weather dirt road which becomes a dry weather only dirt road from the Quintana Roo line to Puerto Morelos and that is the only highway they show in all of Northern Quintana Roo. Actually, except for Cozumel which was only accessible by air back then, Puerto Morelos is the only town noted in Northern Quntana Roo.

The map shows two other minor road systems in all of Quintana Roo. A dry weather dirt road from Ticul, Yucatan to "Xlatil" which today is enroute to the the large Maya settlement in what is now called Filipe Carrillo Puerto but was not noted on the 1953 map. The only other road shown was an an all weather dirt road between Bacalar and Chetumal. 

I like the idea of developing that area around Chetumal in orchards and other agricultural pursuits but be cautious of with whom you deal and maintain a low profile if you are successful. A number of years ago, foreigners from north of the border moved into the Ocosingo area of Chiapas and developed a huge macadamia orchard which I am given to understand takes years to nurture to bear fruit. They were said to have employed many locals in this endeavor. Then, as soon as the orchard was becoming commercially viable, the Zapatistas confiscated the land, kicked the foreigners out and took over the orchard. Unfortunately, the people who confiscated the orchard let it go to seed and today, the macadamia orchard and the employment it generated locally are history. Now, I know that the area around Chetumal is not Zapatista territory but, still, at least in Chiapas, it is not an unknown event to generate a "bogus" sale either inadvertently or on purpose, let the buyer make the improvements planned and then re-claim title to the improved property kicking the person who thought he/she had purchased the property out into the street. This sort of thing has been known to happen in both cities and rural areas and in Chetumal with its proximity to both the sea and the border with Belize you will doubtlless have to purchase land under a trust arrangement so make sure you have good, honest legal advice.

I don´t mean to discourage you and wish you the best of luck but just be aware that these things happen and not only to people who have been careless.


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## caseyh

If I follow that correctly the 2 coast were not really connected... Seasonal connections between Puerto Morelos and Merida but not south to Bacalar.


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## caseyh

As far as the risks of buying ejido land...

The internet is full of these stories. I have heard that one specifically before. BUT, the internet is unfortunately used disproportionately for bitching. Nobody ever gets online to say "wow that went smooth...I like that guy" AND I have not yet heard one horror story that does not make sense.

The Zapatistas were some of the most aggressive anti west land grabbing revolutionaries in history. After all, Zapatista basically means those who follow the man who wants the land back. 

Most/Many of the horror stories come from Baja which has so many investors and so little titled land disaster was inevitable. Many of those people KNEW they were not buying title but still bitched up a storm when things went south.

This forum has another one about a guy who bought land from a guy that died before they finalized the sale. This is almost comical. If you are buying land that is publicly/communally owned from an individual but you never ask the public community what do you expect. 

Finally, and I hate to say it, but I think a generation of gringos have no faith in Mexico. They will live their but the idea that its "normal" is out of the question. They were raised to believe Mexico is corrupt and thats that. Well...we all know this is true to some extent BUT we have also seen Mexico normalize rapidly in the last 10-15 years. 

I left a $300 camera in a bar last October in Tulum...2 hours later the bus boy crossed the street and chased me down to give it back. If I had gone back in and asked for it my friends would have laughed me out of town. Why, despite their love of Mexico they lack faith in Mexicans. 

Finally I see comments like "you need a presta nombre and a carta de poder...to buy ejido land" all over the place. I don't know where this comes from. Since the laws that allowed ejido land to become private a system has been established. 

Purchase of Communal (Ejido) Land in Mexico

Buying Ejido Land in Mexico - The Profit and Problems

Can I Buy Ejido Land? | Connell & Associates

None of these mention either the presta nombre or carta de poder. I bring it up because everyday people are giving legal advice that sucks (with a straight face). No wonder so many people get into deals that are flawed. 

I think this is the result of what I call "flawed memory loss". This is a common phenomena whereby people continue to live in the past despite the future charging ahead without them because they can't forget what they "used to know". The system of presta nombre and carta de poder has never been legal despite being so common for so long. Now that a legal method has been created, using the old illegal system is even more insane.


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## sparks

caseyh said:


> None of these mention either the presta nombre or carta de poder. I bring it up because everyday people are giving legal advice that sucks (with a straight face). No wonder so many people get into deals that are flawed.
> 
> I think this is the result of what I call "flawed memory loss". This is a common phenomena whereby people continue to live in the past despite the future charging ahead without them because they can't forget what they "used to know". The system of presta nombre and carta de poder has never been legal despite being so common for so long. Now that a legal method has been created, using the old illegal system is even more insane.


Listen smart guy .... I told you what I did and what many gringos have to do around here to "own" Ejido land. Just because you don't like the answer you go on a rant. Yes Ejido's can normalize but all haven't. When they normalize they usually only do the residential areas and keep the farm land as Ejido.

Enough talking to you


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## GARYJ65

And why all that agresiveness?


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## caseyh

sparks said:


> Listen smart guy .... I told you what I did and what many gringos have to do around here to "own" Ejido land. Just because you don't like the answer you go on a rant. Yes Ejido's can normalize but all haven't. When they normalize they usually only do the residential areas and keep the farm land as Ejido.
> 
> Enough talking to you


Dude whatever. I am stoked it worked for you! It did not work for a lot of people. 

You used the word NEED to. Thats wrong. You can get pissed if you want but it is clear that system is not what "needs" to be done. If it is what works where you are, great. 

BUT considering new laws regulate how this is supposed to be done, I would suspect following them is a good idea. Is that so crazy?

Your comment about ejidos normalizing residential land before agricultural land was very informative and helpful. Thank you. This may play a crucial role in my decision since neither property is cleared or used for anything yet. 

My comments were not directed as an attack on you. In fact I support anyone that even approached ejido land. If you did it with a presta nombre (which many people think is somewhere between crazy and illegal) then more power to you. It takes a special kind of person to take those kind of risks when the crowd says not to. I came here looking for those people.

It was a reference to the endless posts that say things like, "don't buy ejido land ever" or "you will get ripped off no matter what". I can only assume that many people have worked with honest ejidos to get legal land. This is never acknowledged! Instead lots of people (NOT YOU) insist the Mexicans are gonna screw you...I find it offensive.


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## Hound Dog

I see you´ve done a bit of homework on this and, once again good luck to you. 

While we´ve spent much time in the Yucatan and Oaxaca, we have lived in Chiapas for about six years where we bought a tear down in the historic center of San Cristóbal de Las Casas which we reconstructed from the foundation up so Chiapas is where our real esperience has been over the past few years. The comment above in a previous post about people giving out lame legal advice reminded me of an incident in San Cristóbal back when we were looking for a home there in2005. 

In order to continue our search for a second home down there, we quickly realized that, unlike the Lake Chapala area within the confines of the area known locally as "Lakeside" with its many expat residents, one did not typically use the services of a real estate agent (unless one wanted to get screwed to the wall by a useless parasite) but, in order to find the appropriate property, one needed to go there and pound the pavement in neighborhoods one found attractive looking for "Se Vende" signs or even inquiring of homeowners with no signs if they were interested in selling their homes - not considered an offensive inquiry down in Chiapas unless you are in an indigenous community where foreigners are often unwelcome as residents. 

We had rented a casita on a large semi-rural property in San Cristóbal and, down in Chiapas it is a common practice to pay a rental deposit or even full payment well in advance in order to secure a reservation so we sent the landowner $6,000 Pesos as payment for the casita for a week. It was a place in which my wife had rented before, a nice property and the landlords, while a bit eccentric as are many expats living in the Chiapas Highlands, seemed trustworthy enough.

Well, they turned out to be crooked sleazoids and, we think, must have managed to rent the casita for a longer period of time or for more money so just before we went down there they not only canceled our rental but refused to return our prepayment. 

The thing that those of you moving down to Mexico and giving, often of necessity, cash up front
to hold a rental, keep in mind that, unless you are moving to that particular town, you are totally at the mercy of the person to whom you submit the funds. These slimeballs had no idea we were moving to San Cristóbal and would, thus be present there to pursue legal action against them so they thought stealing our prepaid rent was an impossible action for us to move against. They knew that under the law as practiced in Chiapas, anyway, would make it impossible for us to bring a court action against them since, certainly, 99% of their rental customers don´t live locally or they woudn´t be renting so this seemed like a sure thing for them.

At first we thought of complaining to PROFECO, the Mexican consumer protection agency only to find out they don´t get involved in real estate matters so we were left with the alternative of going to court and, thus, sought out a San Cristóbal attorney to represent us and that is where I learned something about legal advice in places such as Chiapas. San Cristóbal is home to a locally famed law school in the historic center just up the Andador from the principal plaza but I found I got the Chiapas law school curriculum from this local attorney in true short order and I recount:

*CHIAPAS LAW SCHOOL 101*

DAWG: Will you represent us in taking on these slimy landlords who stole our prepaid rent?
ATTY: I will do my best. It is best to go into an arbitration hearing and make your denunciations and demands and the arbitrator will decide.
DAWG: But these creeps will lie and lie without skipping a beat.
ATTY: *They lie, you lie*. 

Just to let those of you planning to move to Mexico know some of the ropes before you even get here, keep some things in mind:
* In Chiapas (and Mexico in many places), accomplished lying is a virtue indicating sharp mental prowess so do not expect sympathy from others if you are not up to the human game. The same is true in the South of France where truly skilled lyers are often venerated.
* Just about everybody in Mexico is a tax cheat which is why they have this exhorbitant IVA or sales taxes on just about everything but (1) tortillas, (2) Medicines (so far) and (3) the holy corn (as in France where the staple is the holy wheat).

After stewing abount this delimma for a while and realizing that just because you have been offended in Mexico does not mean that you will prevail in a court proceeding, we figured this out. We knew the landowners in San Cristóbal also were landowners in our old stomping grounds in Northern California and that, in all likelihood, they had been failing to report rental income both in Mexico and the United States to either Hacienda or the IRS by pretending they were house swapping rather than renting for pay but here we were people who had paid them to rent their casita but were willing to report their tax dodging to both Hacienda and the IRS with proof we had rented from them for cash . We got our $6,000 back so fast it would make your head spin.

Don´t learn these lessons about duplicity in the streets down here or you will pay a premium in tuition. Come down here willing to learn not arrogantly thinking yourself smarter than the hick you encounter in the milpa and you will learn to live here with more money left in your pocket.


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## caseyh

Great post and great story. 

I think the part about getting in town and looking hard is the most important step. 

I also like the part about real estate agents pinning you to the wall. I think this divides expats into 2 categories. Those that buy big dollar properties from big companies (that pay bigger taxes) and those that just buy a tiny slice of the pie from their future neighbors.


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## sparks

caseyh said:


> BUT considering new laws regulate how this is supposed to be done, I would suspect following them is a good idea. Is that so crazy?
> 
> .


The simple fact is there is no "new law" and if it happens, will only effect normalized land ... not Ejido.


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## caseyh

Now I will admit that just because you read it on the internet does not make it true but according to:

Can I Buy Ejido Property? What is Ejido Property

In 1992 the Mexican government established a policy for regularizing ejido land called PROCEDE. PROgrama para CEsion de Derechos Ejidales (Program for cession of ejidal rights). Through this program, ejidatarios can convert their property to private property, which can then be sold.

and
Can I Buy Ejido Land?

since the constitutional reforms of 1992 ejido land now can be converted into private property and sold to third parties, including foreigners.

and
Land Privatization in Mexico: Urbanization, Formation of Regions and ... - Maria Teresa Vázquez Castillo - Google Books

I cant copy the third one but it discusses the constitutional reform in detail. 

All three refer to Domino Pleno and Procede as "new" ways to convert ejido land to titled land. "New" as in the only way...."new" as in their was NO way until this system. Hence the initial comment about "power of attorney". Again, let me emphasize... I know it was common and worked, it may still be common and work. But it scares me knowing their is "another way" being promoted as "the only way".

I am admittedly no expert, for all I know these laws never happened or don't exist but they seem to be real enough.


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## caseyh

Months ago I read a legal blog about ejido land where the author (a lawyer) recommended what I thought was a pretty good strategy. 

He advised agreeing verbally to the sale and placing a small enough deposit you could walk away. The deposit could be in the form of a lease on the land with stipulations it can not be sold to anyone else during the lease period (this gets you on the land and prevents future squatters for what might be years of work and gets some money to the owner). Then have a lawyer AND notario draft a contract with a clause that full payment will be made when title processes are over...including securing title insurance. Agree to pay all backed taxes/utilities/fees/lawyers etc (with an agreed range to be deducted from the sale price). Pay the lawyers to conduct the title process. If the title company refuses insurance you get stuck with a lease or buy a questionable title. 

Part of why I think this might work well is if the title insurance is denied (and you don't buy) the owner would still have his title. It might be a "less than perfect title" but to them it is more than nothing. It also creates a situation where they know you are spending money on something that is still "theirs" thereby building trust. This would help them understand that you really are going to buy it when its done. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen when they decide they want a fortune for the property now that its title but you have a contract and a lease. The contract is probably not worth the paper its printed on but it kept you from paying upfront. The lease is the ace in the hole. When confronted with taking the agreed upon money or waiting potentially 30 years to get the land back they will want the money. 

Its pretty complicated and convincing the typical ejido resident (whats the word for that) might be impossible. 

I think all this conversation is good because once the system is understood (if their is one) then millions of Mexicans will be able to benefit from income that has so far been funneled into parts of Mexico where titles are more common. They might also be able to get full value for it instead of suffering from the stigma attached to this land. If the restricted zone is also abolished the Maya on the Yucatan Peninsula stand to make a fortune. I wish them the best of luck.


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## caseyh

I found similar instructions here Ejido Land FAQs

The main difference is they say the ejido property owner has to do all the title work before the sale...nobody can buy ejido land but ejido land can become non ejido land and then you can buy it. Semantics. Your lawyer could do it for them. 

I guess this is why the lease is so important and why it so hard. If they do all the title work, why sell at ejido prices. 

I should not that the ejido land I am considering is in an area beyond town at the end of a dead end road. It is considered beyond worthless. It is surrounded by unused land for a long long way in all directions. But it has a special quality I need to run my business. No titled property in the area is an option, so its not so much the cost as much as location. I think this is the can of worms that got a lot of people into similar situations.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=caseyh;2270417]I found similar instructions here Ejido Land FAQs

The main difference is they say the ejido property owner has to do all the title work before the sale...nobody can buy ejido land but ejido land can become non ejido land and then you can buy it. Semantics. Your lawyer could do it for them. _

But, then, the ejido council along with sympathetic judges can later declare the seller or previous council acted inappropriately and confiscate your property in the name of the ejido. Watch your ass or, better still, move on. There is much great property to buy in Mexiico without buying "ejido" or "indian" lands and "indian" lands is another legal definition altogether. As for "ejido" lands, ejido politics can be treacherous. If they take back that land they sold you, nobody will be on your side.


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## RVGRINGO

The intention to buy ejido land is an oxymoron. As Hound Dog recommended, Move on and look for something you can buy in fee simple.


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## caseyh

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=caseyh;2270417]I found similar instructions here Ejido Land FAQs
> 
> The main difference is they say the ejido property owner has to do all the title work before the sale...nobody can buy ejido land but ejido land can become non ejido land and then you can buy it. Semantics. Your lawyer could do it for them. _
> 
> But, then, the ejido council along with sympathetic judges can later declare the seller or previous council acted inappropriately and confiscate your property in the name of the ejido. Watch your ass or, better still, move on. There is much great property to buy in Mexiico without buying "ejido" or "indian" lands and "indian" lands is another legal definition altogether. As for "ejido" lands, ejido politics can be treacherous. If they take back that land they sold you, nobody will be on your side.


Fair enough.


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## caseyh

I dont know what it means but I read www.uky.edu/~tmute2/mexico/.../jones-ward_private-commons.pdf‎ last night and it is full of great stats. 

A few good ones:
- 3.5 million ejido land holders
- 4+ million Mexicans living on ejido land illegally
- 10-15 million Mexicans have land that was "acquired through illegal alienation from the ejido"
- Mexico estimates 100,000 hectares of ejido land need to be titled in order for urban development to continue as planned. (urban areas ran out of titled land)
- 67,000 Illegal plots are known to be occupied by peasants in Puebla (1993)

This paper also has tons about illegal ejido land transactions. It talks about lawyers buying 100's of parcels (before they are titled) so that both the ejido and the lawyer can "double sell" the property. Remember that all sales completed before Domino Pleno are null and void (thus...the lawyer NOT the ejido is selling the fake titles)

Whoops. That was the other one I read. I was looking for this

The_Rise_Fall_and_Reconfiguration_of_the_Mexican_Ejido

- Between 1992-2006 8 million Titles were issued for ejido land (mostly parcels but some common use)
- Chiapas, Oaxaca and Morelos have the least amout...Baja Cauhuila and Colima the most
- - Indian land....can not be titled until after it is converted to ejido land (I think its impossible since NAFTA)
- Less than 1% of ejido parcels have been titled
- The vast majority of ejido land that has been converted (titled) was not sold, is not for sale and the owners have no intention of selling. It was converted because they had an opportunity to do it...(i.e. get it out of the governments hands) and to make leasing it easier


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## caseyh

I think I should add the reason I am dwelling on this is because getting a bad ejido title is not the only way to lose your ass in Mexico (or Latin America for that matter). 

Many people have lost titled property to squatters in Mexico. 

I have a friend in Costa Rica that came home for 3 months (USA) and when he went back, the nephew of the chief of police was living in his house (titled). You can imagine this did not go well. 

Someone on this forum recently inquired about a house for sale in Baja. The owners want 1/2 price because a ****** is squatting in their home and don't want to face it. 

In Nicaragua and Brazil properties can have 2, 3 even 10 titles. Sometimes they are ALL fake. This has not prevented thousands of people from getting properties there. 

Finally, things change. If Mexico needs nearly 350 square miles of land to be properly titled in order to continue its development then Mexico has to make normalization a priority (like that matters...lol). And if the restricted zone is abolished coastal ejido land will see the largest land grab since the 49 gold rush! 

It really all academic anyway. I just realized I can lease the land I need and buy a different property for my home. 

The property I am looking at has access to a very unique part of the coast. I need it to run the kayak company. If I don't have exclusive access I can guarantee a local competitor within days of being profitable. That led me to think buy, but 10-30 year lease would be just as good. 

Thanks again for all the thoughts and sorry for turning the farm land thread into an ejido land debate (it was dead since 2009 so I suspect its ok) and if you want small acreage ejido land is where its at...so knowing if its safe is kinda relevant.


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## Hound Dog

This is an interesting topic. According to my French wife, the same laws applying to squatters in Mexico exist more-or-less in France and that is the reason we decided not to buy a home there for future retirement some 20 plus years later. In the 1980s the homes we found attractive were in diffuse, mainly rural areas in several parts of France but also in some urban zones and some properties we really liked were dirt cheap in those days. She told me that, unless you had a trusted relative or employee to inspect the property with regularity, you could easily lose title to squatters in relatively short order and that would be it. In fact, if, in France, you own acreage and let it lie fallow, if someone else comes onto that land in your absence and farms it, the farmer who farmed the land may very well own the property by the time you notice - especially if you are living in far off California as we were in those times. 

Actually, at the present time, we are pleased these uncertainties prevented us from buying a retirement home in France in the 1980s because we had not even considered Mexico or Latin America in general for retirement in those days when we were in our 30s and more accepting of vigorous climates and the rules regarding retiring foreign immigrants. 

Attitudes change over the years as one gets older and I can see us now in that French retirement house in some rural backwater during the first part of November contemplating the arrival of the dismal winter, having been cursed with cold and clammy overcast for days with far more to come for months and depressed about returning to the same local butcher or baker for the same old things as the day before and the day after tomorrow. 

There are very few places more depressing than rural France in the winter - or any other time of the year for that matter - when one is a retired stranger in town whether one speaks the language or not. 

Just who is that villager peeping and scowlling out at us from behind ostensibly closed shutters? We´re not Brits trying to take over your town. Leave us be. Come to think of it, let´s move to Mexico.


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## Isla Verde

caseyh said:


> Thanks again for all the thoughts and sorry for turning the farm land thread into an ejido land debate (it was dead since 2009 so I suspect its ok) and if you want small acreage ejido land is where its at...so knowing if its safe is kinda relevant.


If a thread is more than, let's say, a year old, it's a good idea to start a new one. So, with your permission, I will move the most recent part of this thread to a new one with a more appropriate title.


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## GARYJ65

caseyh said:


> I dont know what it means but I read www.uky.edu/~tmute2/mexico/.../jones-ward_private-commons.pdf‎ last night and it is full of great stats.
> 
> A few good ones:
> - 3.5 million ejido land holders
> - 4+ million Mexicans living on ejido land illegally
> - 10-15 million Mexicans have land that was "acquired through illegal alienation from the ejido"
> - Mexico estimates 100,000 hectares of ejido land need to be titled in order for urban development to continue as planned. (urban areas ran out of titled land)
> - 67,000 Illegal plots are known to be occupied by peasants in Puebla (1993)
> 
> This paper also has tons about illegal ejido land transactions. It talks about lawyers buying 100's of parcels (before they are titled) so that both the ejido and the lawyer can "double sell" the property. Remember that all sales completed before Domino Pleno are null and void (thus...the lawyer NOT the ejido is selling the fake titles)
> 
> Whoops. That was the other one I read. I was looking for this
> 
> The_Rise_Fall_and_Reconfiguration_of_the_Mexican_Ejido
> 
> - Between 1992-2006 8 million Titles were issued for ejido land (mostly parcels but some common use)
> - Chiapas, Oaxaca and Morelos have the least amout...Baja Cauhuila and Colima the most
> - - Indian land....can not be titled until after it is converted to ejido land (I think its impossible since NAFTA)
> - Less than 1% of ejido parcels have been titled
> - The vast majority of ejido land that has been converted (titled) was not sold, is not for sale and the owners have no intention of selling. It was converted because they had an opportunity to do it...(i.e. get it out of the governments hands) and to make leasing it easier


Just one clarification; there is not indian land in Mexico
There are Indìgenas, not indians, Indians come from India or the US


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## caseyh

GARYJ65 said:


> Just one clarification; there is not indian land in Mexico
> There are Indìgenas, not indians, Indians come from India or the US


Well, not to be a stickler but...

Indian was correct since the post was in English, its a direct translation from Indìgena. However, I should have used indigenous since it also translates to Indìgena. It is more accurate (we don't call people from India indigenous) and is void of any potentially negative interpretation.


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## caseyh

RVGRINGO said:


> The intention to buy ejido land is an oxymoron. As Hound Dog recommended, Move on and look for something you can buy in fee simple.


The problem with that attitude is that every day more titles (8 million and rising fast) have ejidal histories. Most of the urban periphery is already on former ejido land. Every day "not buying ejido land" becomes more and more like "don't buy land in Mexico" (or buy it from a USA realtor...well maybe not Remax is pushing ejido land). Its a slippery slope...even titles issued by the Spanish were annulled at some point. I know this is an extreme analogy but I think you get the point. 

My opinion is partially driven by the fact that a lot of the the people who moved to Mexico 20-30-40 years were taking huge risks as well. Tons of them got burned. All I am asking is how do the rates compare (rhetorical).

I am also a high risk kinda guy. I'm trying to get another property on Nicaragua's Caribbean Coast. If you think Mexico is nuts well I got news for you. Titles on titles on titles, all laid over 3 levels of Indigenous autonomy. Add a revolution and 4 million refugees returning from Costa Rica and it gets crazy fast. Depending on who you ask the entire coast is protected or none of it. Considering less than 1 sq ft of coast has been zoned I can kinda understand why. On the bright side, the coast has a tradition of acceptance of anyone that adopts "coastal culture". An equally well deserved reputation for running off those that make waves!


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## Hound Dog

_


caseyh said:



The problem with that attitude is that every day more titles (8 million and rising fast) have ejidal histories. Most of the urban periphery is already on former ejido land. Every day "not buying ejido land" becomes more and more like "don't buy land in Mexico" (or buy it from a USA realtor...well maybe not Remax is pushing ejido land). Its a slippery slope...even titles issued by the Spanish were annulled at some point. I know this is an extreme analogy but I think you get the point....

You must be careful not to oversimplify the situation in Mexico to your potential future detriment but, hey, if you are willing to risk the loss of your capital and, to say nothing of "face", when, in my view, that is unnecessary in order to acquire splendid lands in Mexico with little or no risk, that is your prerogative but if the risk/reward ratio existent in these transactions with ejido or designated "Indian Lands" is unfavorabe to you as a buyer, in the long run, keep this in mind as you proceed; everyone locally involved in the process of expiditing the land sale process will have an interest in seeing the process of selling land to some foreign chump through to completion and they will lie out of their teeth to see that process come to fruition so, as I said earlier, watch your ass because, if things go bad for you as a foreigner, nobody will give a damn about your having been screwed in a land exchange transaction and. in fact, many locals who cannot afford to engage in such transactions, may actually enjoy you plight.

Wherever you are in the world, beware of local societal impulses of which you may be unaware because you may be destined to be the sucker in the crap game.

By the way, there are countless properties for sale in the hills surrounding the Chiapas state capital of Tuxtla Gutierrez, a very large city, by people who do not own the land they propose to sell. Do not be a fall guy.

Click to expand...

_


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## GARYJ65

caseyh said:


> Well, not to be a stickler but...
> 
> Indian was correct since the post was in English, its a direct translation from Indìgena. However, I should have used indigenous since it also translates to Indìgena. It is more accurate (we don't call people from India indigenous) and is void of any potentially negative interpretation.


I don't get aggravated by the term, and I understand that in English may be correct, just wanted to clarify it because in Mexico it is wrong to call them indians, it is even a pejorative term.


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## GARYJ65

The moral to this: Unless you are an ejidatario, stay away from ejidos

Keep it simple, and legal


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## citlali

No kidding it is a god idea to know the term "indio" is an insult and it is not a good idea to use the term if you want to buy their land.


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## Hound Dog

_


GARYJ65 said:



I don't get aggravated by the term, and I understand that in English may be correct, just wanted to clarify it because in Mexico it is wrong to call them indians, it is even a pejorative term.

Click to expand...

_Thank you for that lesson in political correctness Gary no matter how unecessary . Perhaps we should start calling the indigenous folks in Mexico "Native Americans" which, by the way, they seem not to be as their ancestors, like those NOB of Mexico in the U.S. and Canada, are presumed to be from Asia and they were migrants to the Americas. Perhaps "First Comers" is the correct phrase or,as we used to say in my home town, "I was here before you was here so this here is my place unless, of course, you have more guns and horses than do I ".

When I was a kid in Alabama in the 1950s, to call people of African heritage the insulting word "N.....s" was commonplace but pejorative and to call them "black" was also an insult so one was supposed to call them "*******" to be civilized then that became unfashionable and "black" became the proper designation and over time that became unfashionalble and "African American; became the correct designation.

In France, the proper designation of people of Arabic heritage used to be "Arab" but that is no longer acceptable so Arabs must now be the "people of the Maghreb" and there are no longer "gypsies" but "People of the voyage". 

Folks of European heritage in places like Alabame such as I were traditionally known as "Sodbusters" and then "Yahoos" and then "********". I demand a new designation and that would be "Scots Escaping the Rain".


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> No kidding it is a god idea to know the term "indio" is an insult and it is not a good idea to use the term if you want to buy their land.


I'm glad you said something. I doubt I would have ever said that but I did not know. I have more experience in Central America than Mexico and that is not insulting other places I have been (Nicaragua and I think Honduras) 

I have a close friend who lives on Omotepe in Nicaragua (a ******) and after years of friendship they now call him El Indio as a term of endearment (he lives more like them than gringos).

Once again this probably goes back to English translations. The Caribbean Coast was an English protectorate and English is still common there. The majority of indigenous in Nicaragua (not all by a long shot) are from the Caribbean. Thus they may have become accustomed to "indio"'. This is pure speculation but rivers and parks and communities use the term (Barra Indio on the Rio Indio in Parque Nacional Indio Maiz). 

Although if you ask "'who lives in Barra Indio" their is no way anyone would respond "Indio's"...they would say, "Rama and Garifuna and Ladinos" or just laugh and say,"this is a really culturally diverse part of the world...people live there".

Garifuna are extended indigenous rights but are culturally not indigenous...the relate to Afro Caribe, Garifuna or Creole. I suspect calling them Indio would be really bad. I usually ask when I'm somewhere new. The culture fascinates me and I find they appreciate the effort to be correct. 

I would think asking in Mexico would be a good idea too. After all Mexico has at least 40 or 50 indigenous groups...I suspect the would prefer being called Maya, Nahuatl, Zapotec etc... (when face to face). I suspect indigenous works for generalizations.


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## Hound Dog

_


GARYJ65 said:



I don't get aggravated by the term, and I understand that in English may be correct, just wanted to clarify it because in Mexico it is wrong to call them indians, it is even a pejorative term.

Click to expand...

_All of this ridiculous discourse on what to call the indigenous folks of this part of North America reminds me a of a good story regarding what we experienced a few years ago in Yalapa, Jalisco, a small "Indian" beachfront village (versus "ejido") south of Puerto Vallarta reachable then, and probably still now , only by launch from Puerto Vallarta or Mismaloya or a very arduous drive over a primitive dirt road from the indigenous town of El Tuito, Jalisco which then, at least, was not a recommended altetrnative. 

One day, while vacationing in Mismaloya, we took the launch to Yalapa, which is an attractive if rustic beachfront town designated here in Mexico as an "Indian" community - not an "Ejido" but an "Indian" community. 

The guy who owned and ran the launch from Mismaloya Beach to Yalapa also owned many other things in Yalapa including the local grocery store and many properties. He must have seen us as marks because, on the way to Yalapa he started hitting us up for the following deal:

He would sell us a property in Yalapa which we could not own in fee simple because the property was located on what he referred to as "Indian Land" and thus, we as non-Indians could not buy the land but what we could do is purchase a guaranteed life estate in the property through a contractual arrangement with him and upon our deaths, the land and improvements would revert to his daughter. He also offered to rent us a small cottage on a piece of land he had sold under this arrangement to some Oregonians which he managed as their property manager and it was not necessary to contact those folks in Oregon as he was taking care of the details and they never came back down to Yalapa anyway ( for some undiscernable reason) and, in fact.had stopped coming down there some time ago and we were also not to worry about supplies of food and alcoholic drinks such as beer and wine and stuff like toilet paper because he could supply us with everything we needed for all eternity by ferrying basics over the Pacific from Mismaloya and all we had to do was lie around on the beach lake a couple of Al Capp´s Schmoos and do nothing and we may be stupid but we are not that stupid and we got the hell out of Yalapa and have never been back. 

By the way, it is not the word "indian" that is offensive to the indigenous people of Mexico with whom we are acquainted but the word "indio". As an aside, Indio Brand Cerveza used to be called "Cuatéhmoc" when the brand was founded in the 19th Century and that knowledge plus four pesos will get you a ride on a bus in Ajijic from the west side to centro.


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## caseyh

For those of you who keep insisting that Ejido land is bad. I found a map of the ejidos in the Chetumal Region (dont ask how). It appears that the land I want is not even in the ejido I am shopping in! Can you say RED FLAG!

It looks ike the Calderitas ejido expanded beyond the other...engulfing it. The ejido I am shopping in is an "island" within other ejidos. The land beyond town that I want is not in the island. The "titled" property is right in the middle of the Calderitas ejido. I suspect that means that even thou it has a title, it was ejido at some point. 

This creates the problem I hinted at a few posts again. Now that ejido land is title-able it makes looking that much harder. I wont know the history of the land (weather it really titled or ejido titled) until the lawyers and notarios get involved. If the average person wont buy those titles and nobody knows till "late negotiations" this seems like a disaster for Mexico. 

I am curious about one thing. Everything I have read about ejido titles being revoked always comes back to an ejido member claiming they we mislead or defrauded. If they do they entire process without the help of a foreigner it seems like claiming they were mislead becomes pretty hard. What I mean is buying titled property with ejido history might be safer than helping the ejido get title so that you can buy it. This really goes back to my unanswered question. Those of you who say avoid ejido land...are you also saying don't ever buy a title that was once ejido land?

Like I said before its academic. I am almost positive I will try and get a long lease instead of purchase. A really weird situation has happened with the Calderitas ejido that I think works to my advantage. When it expanded, nobody settled the new area. Then the state created the Chetumal Bay Manatee Sanctuary over top of the expansion (and several thousand residents in 5 ejidos). This declared 99% of the new Calderitas ejido protected and 1% restricted use (not agriculture). The land is an hour drive from the rest of the ejido and restricted use. Since ejidatarios are not well known for launching tourism ventures I now understand why the area was basically abandoned (not one inch of cleared land exists in the expansion area accept for a dirt road into the region). I said earlier that I only partially understood why the area was forgotten...well this is the missing piece of the picture. I am virtually positive the ejido CURRENTLY has no interest in this land. I am virtually positive that when I am done with it they WILL have interest in it. If I buy it they will try and take it back asap after I turn a profit. With a lease they will have to wait till I'm done. 

Wait...is an ejido lease worth the paper its printed on? It seems like if titles can be voided so can leases.


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## Hound Dog

Just a brief and amateurish history lesson here with which the reader may agree or disagree. There are two American continents. Central America is part of North America and South America starts at the Panamanian /Colombian border even though what is now known as Panama was once part of Colombia until the U.S. stole the isthmus from them so they could build the canal. Now, it seems, China is sponsoring another canal in another part of Central America. Ironic and highly amusing.


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## caseyh

Hound Dog said:


> All of this ridiculous discourse on what to call the indigenous


Good stuff, I like it. 

But not offending your host is far fro ridiculous especially if they are your neighbors (or the brother of the guy who can revoke your title). 

I would have run from that deal too! I am not stupid...a crazy, risk taking dreamer yes.

This subject is really important to the future of Mexican land sales and thus Mexico. So important that the system "has to normalize". A trillion dollars is knocking on Mexico's door, the only thing that motivates the Mexican Government more than a trillion dollars is 2 trillion dollars. 

It has been 20 years since the reforms but it has not been long enough. If you find a property you have to have....perhaps leasing it for 10 years will allow the time needed to finish normalization.


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## RVGRINGO

Colon, sometimes known as Columbus, and Cristobal to his friends, was looking for India or China. He was not certain. So, it is said that he called the Carib folks Indians. I doubt that story. He was an Italian, sailing for Spain. Either way, he would have called them indegenes, and nothing else. Before landfall, he had been called up from the comforts of his cabin and asked what was seen forward. A sleepy sailor looked forward and saw Sr. Vespucci, so told the captain that he saw Americus, Amerigo, or .... well you get the idea. Colon had land in mind, not a person, but the name stuck; north and south.
When the English-speaking folks arrived, they mispronounced the word and it became indians, not Indians. 
So, it appears that *i*ndians is a mispronunciation of indegenes, while *I*ndians is a mispronunciation of Hindis. Monolingual ingleses always do that.


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## Isla Verde

Here's an interesting account of how the New World came to be called "America": Amerigo Vespucci - Biography of Amerigo Vespucci.


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## caseyh

Hound Dog said:


> Just a brief and amateurish history lesson here with which the reader may agree or disagree. There are two American continents. Central America is part of North America and South America starts at the Panamanian /Colombian border even though what is now known as Panama was once part of Colombia until the U.S. stole the isthmus from them so they could build the canal. Now, it seems, China is sponsoring another canal in another part of Central America. Ironic and highly amusing.


I have no idea where this came from but it has several conversation points.

I would disagree in part. I think that Central America is "more official" and that 3 American continents/subcontinents exist. Thats just in practice, I have never understood it. Toss in Meso America, Latin America, the fact that Mexico is in North America and that culture is obviously more unified south of the USA...it becomes dizzying. 

I think Meso America was meant to refer to society of Olmec origin. As our understanding of this culture grows so does Meso America. I suspect it will soon include the Moskito/Mosquito coast as well because of the discovery of the "White City" somewhere near the Rio Plantano. Traditional, the Mosquito coast was thought to be nearly uninhabited (or inhabited by a less complex cultural group). This is partially based on Copan being the largest southern complex...well its not. I often use Latin America but that seems wrong considering the number of indigenous.

A second canal. This is of major interest to me. I initially wanted to get my Nicaraguan land on the Rio Punta Gorda (border of the Indio Maiz national park). This river flows to Monkey Point where they new deep water harbor is proposed. Monkey Point is an autonomous village in an autonomous preserve in an autonomous state. The chief goes by Rupert Allen Clair Duncan, president of Communal Government of Monkey Point (280 people). This community is extremely weary of this project (and all foreigners looking for land). They have been screwed MANY times and the capital DOES NOT have their best interest in mind (my opinion). 

My other opinion is that the canal will never happen, at least not to Monkey Point. It is far more likely they use the San Juan River to a port at Isla Caleros. Basically I think its more likely that Nicaragua steals a Costa Rican National Park than Monkey Point. How could I be so crazy: the rail road to the coast would be impossible. The road to the coast was destroyed twice (maybe three times). The Japaneses came to fix it and laughed...they started from scratch 50 miles to the north (to the village of Pearl Lagoon not to Bluefields where it is needed). Not to mention that it requires 4 super ports and Nicaragua is just not ready to manage a $40 billion project (that will run $100 billon when done...half of the Japanese road fund vanished). The Chinese will fail just like the French. 

Either way I wish Ortega the best of luck. Not because I support the project but I want to see Nicaragua's living conditions improve. In the West, that is done with industry, commerce and development. Besides, the river has a rich history of transcontinental shipping that can not be denied the Nicaraguan people (although it should go to Greytown not Caleros or Monkey Point...but I'm not allowed to participate in politics ).


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## RVGRINGO

Why are we not all speaking Italian, or at least Spanish?


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## caseyh

RVGRINGO said:


> Why are we not all speaking Italian, or at least Spanish?


Because the Spanish were so focused on Western Passage, spices, sugar, slaves and gold that they failed to see the value of the temperate zone and accidentally gave it to England. The exception was Florida. Spain gave Florida to the USA later... in exchange for Texas._ OH, the irony _. 

2 great book titled How rum led to the American Revolution(something like that) talks about this all in detail but out of context. The other (forgot the title) is about the influence of the spice trade on history.


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## Hound Dog

Thank you for your response, CaseyH. Yes, it was through Nicaragua that the proposed new trans-oceanic canal was proposed to be built with, I have read, Chinese sponsorship and who knows if that will truly come about. Let´s remember that, before U.S. interests built the Panama Canal, they literally stole the Panama Isthmus from Colombia and turned that area into a U.S. prtotectorate or colony and China does not have that option in today´s political environment so they would need to turn Nicaragua into a modern-day fealty which is possible at least temporarily but a complex task and a bit risky considering the enormous capital investment needed to construct the shipping waterway through Nicaragua adequate to transport cargo on giant ships. Add to that that China´s motives, whether in Central America or Africa or you name it, are always China First. Altruism is not in the lexicon.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=caseyh;2290865]Because the Spanish were so focused on Western Passage, spices, sugar, slaves and gold that they failed to see the value of the temperate zone and accidentally gave it to England. The exception was Florida. Spain gave Florida to the USA later... in exchange for Texas. OH, the irony . 

Hold on, Casey:

Spain gave Florida to the U.S. in exchange for Texas? Perhaps I am misreading your comment or my history lessons are askew. I thought the U.S. stole Texas and all the Mexican lands west from there to California from Mexico in an act of war and the only thing I am still unable to comprehend is why they didn´t also steal Baja California in its entirety and give Texas back to the Mexicans except for the fact that Mexico might have turned down the deal._


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## Isla Verde

Here's a detailed explanation of how Mexico lost one-third of its national territory to the United States in the mid-nineteenth century: The Mexican-American War.


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## caseyh

Hound Dog said:


> [_QUOTE=caseyh;2290865]Because the Spanish were so focused on Western Passage, spices, sugar, slaves and gold that they failed to see the value of the temperate zone and accidentally gave it to England. The exception was Florida. Spain gave Florida to the USA later... in exchange for Texas. OH, the irony .
> 
> Hold on, Casey:
> 
> Spain gave Florida to the U.S. in exchange for Texas? Perhaps I am misreading your comment or my history lessons are askew. I thought the U.S. stole Texas and all the Mexican lands west from there to California from Mexico in an act of war and the only thing I am still unable to comprehend is why they didn´t also steal Baja California in its entirety and give Texas back to the Mexicans except for the fact that Mexico might have turned down the deal._


_

That is also true. The USA claimed it after the Louisiana Purchase in 1803. Spain disagreed but gave it to the USA for Florida (and $5 million) in 1819, then Mexico gained independence from Spain in 1821 claiming it as their own. Then it succeeded in 1836. Then it joined the USA in 1844. The Mexican American War started in 1846. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (and $18 million dollars) "ended" the incident in 1848. 

Considering we have been talking about bad titles all this time, I think it is hilarious that the USA bought it 3 times. CLEARLY selling a property more than once is a "Tradition" older than Mexico itself. It also shows our biases. The USA bought it 3 times and people say we stole it. That does not sound much different from the ****** that buys ejido land and then the ejido says "He stole it". What I mean is, I would not expect to keep my land if the ejido says I stole it anymore than I expect the USA to give back Texas. 

I am no historian! Thats from Wikipedia. I was confused too. 

As for your comment about Baja. I think this goes back to gold, sugar, spice, slaves...none of any in Baja. The Gold was the only thing of interest but it was farther north. By 1849 (the end of Mexican American war) the rush was on and California's history was in motion. Also consider that even Mexico did nothing to gain Baja for a long time (kept it as a territory)._


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## caseyh

OH YEAH! The 49 gold rush also triggered the development of the Nicaraguan transcontinental route up the San Juan River. It is amazing how all this history is still tied together today. When I said I think Nicaragua has a right to that canal this is what I meant. 

The USA would be totally different if it were not for that route. Most importantly, in 1849 towns along the San Juan were some of the most metropolitan in the world. Now the are among the poorest.


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## caseyh

RVGRINGO said:


> Colon, sometimes known as Columbus, and Cristobal to his friends, was looking for India or China. He was not certain. So, it is said that he called the Carib folks Indians. I doubt that story. He was an Italian, sailing for Spain. Either way, he would have called them indegenes, and nothing else. Before landfall, he had been called up from the comforts of his cabin and asked what was seen forward. A sleepy sailor looked forward and saw Sr. Vespucci, so told the captain that he saw Americus, Amerigo, or .... well you get the idea. Colon had land in mind, not a person, but the name stuck; north and south.
> When the English-speaking folks arrived, they mispronounced the word and it became indians, not Indians.
> So, it appears that *i*ndians is a mispronunciation of indegenes, while *I*ndians is a mispronunciation of Hindis. Monolingual ingleses always do that.


This reminds me of one of my favorite linguistic stories. 

When Cristobal Colon first arrived along the coast of the Yucatan he was greeted by indigenous in giant canoes. He asked, "who are you"? They replied, "Maya" (at least thats what he heard). 

It is now thought by anthropologists that, whatever they said, in whatever dialect really meant, "*we do not understand you*". ound:

Maybe we should revisit what to call the indigenous...


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## caseyh

A couple thoughts that may effect the ejido land question.

1) Land can be acquired through adverse possession after 10 years. Most lawyers say this only applies to Mexicans... or its never been tests by gringos.

2) Mexicans don't have the fears of ejido land that Gringos do.

BUT, when a Mexican acquires an ejido title through adverse possession or buys it the deal is final (or at least close to final). This is because in Mexico possession is 9.9/10ths of the law (if your Mexican). Any dispute would be Mexican on Mexican and the law means a lot more than in a dispute between ****** and Mexican. 

Do you think this matters at all. Does this mean that ejido titles slowly become legitimate after they have been in the hands of a non ejido Mexican for a while. It seems like an adverse possession title has already been established as *not *the ejidos anymore *period*. It seems counter intuitive but maybe those are better than ejido titles derived from the PROCEDE process. Maybe, the idea of using power of attorney is the way to go after all (an Idea I did not like 2 days ago)...maybe its hopeless (no). 

3) Considering: a) ejido lands are being titled by the millions and b) they can not be fully legally owned by foreigners until after being titled it seems wrong to keep saying, "buy ejido land". The real topic is proper title history search and at what point is "ejido" in the past not important anymore. Everyone so far seems to agree if ejido history was last week run home, not to the PROCEDE office. How about the 2 situations I presented above?


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## kbjorgenson

I can relate to Phredo. My husband and I have a large garden where we grow different vegetables, much of which we can to see us through the winter. We also have chickens and cows. We know we won't be having the cows when we move to Mexico but hope to have chickens and a small garden. I am new to this forum and hope my comments are appropriate.


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## Isla Verde

kbjorgenson said:


> I can relate to Phredo. My husband and I have a large garden where we grow different vegetables, much of which we can to see us through the winter. We also have chickens and cows. We know we won't be having the cows when we move to Mexico but hope to have chickens and a small garden. I am new to this forum and hope my comments are appropriate.


You and your comments are most welcome to the Expat Forum.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> Just a brief and amateurish history lesson here with which the reader may agree or disagree. There are two American continents. Central America is part of North America and South America starts at the Panamanian /Colombian border even though what is now known as Panama was once part of Colombia until the U.S. stole the isthmus from them so they could build the canal. Now, it seems, China is sponsoring another canal in another part of Central America. Ironic and highly amusing.


Hmmm. I will agree with you on the "reader may ... disagree" part. All the Central Americans I've known - from Guatemala down to Costa Rica - would not consider themselves part of North America. They reference _Norteamérica, Suramérica_, and _"Centroamérica y Panamá_" - the explanation I was given for Panama being separate is that historically it was part of Colombia, hence South American, but now as a separate nation it is part of the Central American isthmus. 

When mailing letters to a Central American country (if anyone mails letters anymore...  - remember those wonderful blue airmail envelopes - so exciting to see one in the mailbox!) I was taught to write the country name, followed by C.A. (for Centroamérica). Does an isthmus have to belong to one continent or the other, or can it be a geographical entity unto itself, such as the Caribbean is?

Interestingly, I just found a divergence in the English Wikipedia entry on North America (which does list the Caribbean Islands and Central American countries as part of North America) and the Spanish language entry on Norteamérica, which includes only Canada, USA, Mexico, along with dependencies: Greenland, Clipperton, Bermuda and Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon. Central America is not included as part of North America or South America in the Spanish language entry. Now, recognizing that Wikipedia is far from an authoritative voice on just about anything, it does raise an interesting question. Who gets to decide if Central America is part of North America or is its own entity? The English speaking North Americans or Central Americans themselves? 

Being from the US I was often referred to in Central America as a "Norteamericana" (to avoid perjoratively calling me a _gringa_) - definitely they did not consider themselves "norteamericanos". I would point out that Mexicans and Canadians are also "norteamericanos" (this was before I became Canadian, which made it much easier - "canadiense" :canada: is easier to say then "estadounidense" - and besides it's also the Estados Unidos Mexicanos, so even _estadounidense_ is not unique to the US) - I would just say I was "nebrasqueña" and let them try to figure it out.


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## caseyh

The discrepancy between the English and Spanish wiki is funny. 

The Wiki Enty for Central America has a similar discrepancy

From Spanish Wiki
América Central, también llamada Centroamérica o América del Centro, es un subcontinente que conecta América del Norte con América del Sur.

From English
It is the southernmost, isthmian portion of the North American continent, which connects with South America on the southeast.

What is clear, is that it is a subcontinent. Which continent it is part of is apparently up for debate. The Wiki "Continent" shows it as part of the North. But the Norte Americano comments are obviously common.... so who knows. I think culture is more important than geography. Sure its north of the Equator but they (Central Americans) are culturally more closely unified with the south. 

As for the Caribbean. I once took a class titles Political Economy of Central America and the Caribbean. The professor was Mexican and we talked about Mexico constantly. He occasionally acknowledged it was not Central America but inseparable from the topic.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=ojosazules11;2293377]Hmmm. I will agree with you on the "reader may ... disagree" part. All the Central Americans I've known - from Guatemala down to Costa Rica - would not consider themselves part of North America. They reference Norteamérica, Suramérica, and "Centroamérica y Panamá" - the explanation I was given for Panama being separate is that historically it was part of Colombia, hence South American, but now as a separate nation it is part of the Central American isthmus..... _

Thank you for that, ojo:

The point was that geographically speaking, Central America is considered part of the North American land mass by geographers which reminds me, in 71 years on this planet, I have never actually met a professional "Geographer".

Now, a true revelation; while many mistakenly think the Yucatan Peninsula is in Southern Mexico, the city of Merida, Yucatan is actually north of Guadalajara. Also, where we live in Chiapas used to be in Guatemala before Mexican independence but a few landed gentry voted for Chiapas and Soconusco to join the new Mexican Federation so Chiapas moved from Central America to North America which was OK since Central America was and is just a subdivision of North America. 

These political machinations are nothing new. As an Alabama boy, I recall that In the 19th Century, our southern secessionist ancestors allowed Texas, that vast western wasteland just west of Louisiana pretend to be a southern state so they could join the Confederacy and the only reason they allowed that absurdity was that, in case the Yankees prevailed and, for instance, decided to burn down Atlanta, they would have some place, out in the desolate prairie where nobody with even a third grade education lived, to run and hide until things cooled down a bit.

By the way, the powers-that-were in The Yucatan in the 19th Century did not consider themselves to be Mexican and, at one point after the secession in the U.S. of certain states, considered joining the Confederate States of America as another state. That fell through.


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## ojosazules11

Yes, even geography is political, isn't it? I do wonder, though, if Latin American geographers would agree that Central America is part of North America, or if it would be considered a separate sub-continent. 

Latin American geographers refer to a certain set of islands as "Las Malvinas" whereas English-speaking geographers call them the Falklands. 

Unfortunately, like you, I know no geographers, English or Spanish-speaking.
I do have a Costa Rican friend (in San Ramon de Alajuela) who is an academic at the Universidad de Costa Rica and very knowledgeable about the social, political and cultural history of Central America from pre-Colombian times to the present (do we say this in English? - _tiempos precolombinos_). I'll see if he might want to weigh in on the subject. I am intrigued to find out if there is truly a universally accepted geographical classification of this beloved isthmus, or if it depends on the politicocultural context of the geographer.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> ... Now, a true revelation; while many mistakenly think the Yucatan Peninsula is in Southern Mexico, the city of Merida, Yucatan is actually north of Guadalajara. Also, where we live in Chiapas used to be in Guatemala before Mexican independence but a few landed gentry voted for Chiapas and Soconusco to join the new Mexican Federation so Chiapas moved from Central America to North America ...


Many people also are surprised to learn Bogota is in the same time zone as Toronto (EST), and Buenos Aires is 2 hrs ahead. Looking on a globe, rather than a flat map, it's easier to see how much farther east South America extends, compared to North America.

Until at least the late 80's or early 90's Guatemalan school children were still being taught _"Belice es nuestra."_ - "Belize is ours." I don't know if this is still taught. Guatemala claimed Belize as their territory and did not recognize Belize as a nation. On Sept 11, 1991 Guatemala finally established diplomatic relations and recognized the independence and sovereignty of the State of Belize, but this did not end ongoing territorial disputes. It is still ongoing - here's a link to a timeline about this dispute on the OAS website dating back to 1763 and "The Treaty of Paris" to the present (most recent entry is Oct 6/13):

SAP Secretariat for Political Affairs

It still is not completely resolved. 

They gave up on Chiapas long ago, but I have heard Guatemalans say _"Chiapas antes era nuestro."_ (Chiapas used to be ours.) Long historical memories...


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## citlali

Caseh, your story is off.
The people , the Spaniards called Mayas lived in an area they called Mayeb probably pronounced Mayem. It means "important "hence the Maya name from the Spaniards. 
The Maya from the highland call themselves various versions of the "original men" in their language so it would be interesting what the Yucatecan Mayas called themselves or call themselves now.


Yucatan is the word that is supposed to mean "I do not know, I do not understand".


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## RVGRINGO

True; virtually all isolated indigenous people had an name for themselves; People, in whatever language they developed. I am reminded that, in Turkish, adam means man. It is not complicated.


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## citlali

does Eva or Eve mean woman or wifman in Turkish?


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## RVGRINGO

No, I do not think so. Ev means home or house and Kadın means woman or female.


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## citlali

Just joking... Eve also mean source of life according to google...


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Just joking... Eve also mean source of life according to google...


Here's another, more detailed explanation:

Eve 
fem. proper name, from Biblical first woman, Late Latin, from Hebrew Hawwah, literally "a living being," from base hawa "he lived" (cf. Arabic hayya, Aramaic hayyin).

Like most of the explanations of names in Genesis, this is probably based on folk etymology or an imaginative playing with sound. ... In the Hebrew here, the phonetic similarity is between hawah, "Eve," and the verbal root hayah, "to live." It has been proposed that Eve's name conceals very different origins, for it sounds suspiciously like the Aramaic word for "serpent." [Robert Alter, "The Five Books of Moses," 2004, commentary on Gen. iii:20] 

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eve


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## RVGRINGO

Not without our help, ladies!  Must plant the seed first, but tending the crop as it grows is not near so much fun, as I recall.


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## citlali

No kidding, RV.but I think the snake did it unless the word snake in Aramaic sounds strangly closr to penis.

This getting worst that a class I took once , puns between Hebrew and Aramaic get lost on me. I have a tough time enough in French...


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## caseyh

Thats great history. 

One of the reasons I like the Caribbean Coast of Mexico and Central America so much is the result of all this history. The Spanish dominated politics and social dynamics inland, but most of the coast was isolated. This allowed for incredible cultural diversity to evolve on the coast. Latin influences abound but the indigenous and black culture also abound (Maya in Yucatan, English and Creole Belize, Garifuna, Miskito, Blacks in Costa etc). 

I bring it up because during the Mexico/Texas debate, those in the Yucatan were (as you mentioned) not participating. They were focused on their own independence. Within 2 years of Mexican Independence from Spain the Maya created the Yucatan Republic. It lasted as long as the Tex/Mex conflict...the Maya gave up their independent Republic the same year Mexico gave up on Texas.

I never heard about the Yucatan trying to be a US State. That's interesting.


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## caseyh

citlali said:


> Caseh, your story is off.
> The people , the Spaniards called Mayas lived in an area they called Mayeb probably pronounced Mayem. It means "important "hence the Maya name from the Spaniards.
> The Maya from the highland call themselves various versions of the "original men" in their language so it would be interesting what the Yucatecan Mayas called themselves or call themselves now.
> 
> 
> Yucatan is the word that is supposed to mean "I do not know, I do not understand".


Correct. I heard that years ago and mis-remembered it. Thanks.

Its almost as funny.


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