# what visa to attend an internship?



## divya1113 (Nov 9, 2015)

Hello,

A startup company in Singapore is calling me for an unpaid internship of 1 month, with a possibility of a full time job after the internship.

I just need to know what visa to apply for? 

The company said to apply for a visit pass and declare "job search" as the purpose of visit while applying for the visa.

So, can I attend the internship on a visit pass? Also, will I have trouble getting a visa if I declare "job search" as a purpose of visit while applying for the visa? I don't think I can get an E-pass or S-pass right now as I'm not officially hired by the company yet.

Secondly, will I have trouble getting an employment pass in future, as the company is very new (only a year old, but the company is registered with ACRA)? As I heard, that company needs to meet some minimum requirements before it can hire someone from a foreign country. Can someone tell me exactly what those requirements are? I don't want to go to Singapore only to find out that I cannot be hired by the company because it's very new and doesn't meet requirements to hire a foreigner.

Kind Regards


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

divya1113 said:


> So, can I attend the internship on a visit pass?


No. An internship is almost always considered work even if it's unpaid. You cannot legally perform that activity with a STVP.

You can only attend (as a visitor/participant) company meetings, corporate retreats, meetings with business partners, study tours or visits, training courses, workshops, seminars, conferences, and trade exhibitions on a STVP. Internships (even unpaid ones) almost always require you to perform actual work beyond these exempt activities.



> I don't want to go to Singapore only to find out that I cannot be hired by the company because it's very new and doesn't meet requirements to hire a foreigner.


I share your concern.

The Ministry of Manpower does not provide many options for foreigners to accept unpaid internships. That's in part to protect you from an abusive (or potentially abusive) employer simply trying to get free labor. And if this startup is so wonderful that it can attract unpaid interns for month long stints, it should have no problem finding those unpaid interns among those who are already in Singapore and who already have legal permission to work for zero pay.

That said, if your employer is seriously interested in you then one option they have is a _short-term_ S Pass. They must pay you at least S$2,200 per month (or more if you have greater experience). If they pay you at least S$3,300 per month (more if you have greater experience) then a short-term Employment Pass is another option. There are potential advantages to the employer with an EP versus an S Pass. In both cases you have the option to pay for your own air fare to/from Singapore if you wish, though my understanding is that in the case of the S Pass your employer is required to pay for your return transportation unless you voluntarily pay for your return transportation on your own. Said another way, if the plan was for your employer to pay your air ticket but pay you nothing for your month of work, you and your employer can probably strike a different deal that's legal and that broadly achieves a similar financial outcome.


----------



## divya1113 (Nov 9, 2015)

Hello, thanks for your info.

My employer will be offering me a place to stay, pay for my flight and provide me a stipend of S$400/month. But, he won't be paying me S$2,200 like you mentioned above.

This internship is just like a practical interview for him to access my merits as a potential employee, as it's quite difficult to hire a foreigner just from an interview, specially if it's a startup company.

Another question that I have is: Can I do a job search or attend interviews while I'm on a visit pass? Assume, I don't have any pre-planned interviews or any official interview call letters. I want to search for job and go to the interviews, while I'm in Singapore. Can I do this on a short term visit pass?

Also, I'm a freelance graphic and web designer and I mostly work online. If I happen to take a contract while I'm in Singapore and I designed a S$500 website for a client from Singapore, will it be considered "working on a visit pass" and is this illegal?

Kind Regards


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

divya1113 said:


> My employer will be offering me a place to stay, pay for my flight and provide me a stipend of S$400/month. But, he won't be paying me S$2,200 like you mentioned above.


Unfortunately that's not legal. One legal option your employer probably has is to pay you at least $2,200 or $3,200 per month (and sponsor you for an S Pass or EP), zero for your housing, zero for your travel (or for your return ticket if an S Pass), and zero for your stipend. It's a different, legal way to get to substantially the same financial outcome for both parties.

In other words, if your employer wants to evaluate whether you are a good employee and start you on a one month trial, no problem. The employer simply hires you then, if not satisfied, does not renew your contract. But you and your employer have to do this the legal way, and that means an S Pass or Employment Pass.

Employers in Singapore, including start ups, have absolutely no problem terminating employees, particularly foreign employees, any time they wish.

You can/should even have everything agreed up front, specifically that starting from month two your salary, housing, and/or stipend would be adjusted to new numbers automatically. If the employer doesn't like that for whatever reason, no problem, the employer just ends the contract, and you part ways after one (low cost to them) month. Though 30 days notice is typical as far as I'm aware there's nothing barring you from agreeing to a waiver of 30 days notice during the first month of your contract.

There's absolutely no problem here that the employer needs to solve that hasn't been well solved already in Singapore with a conventional employment agreement (with first month modification, subject to minimum remuneration) and a conventional S Pass or Employment Pass. _Unless_ the employer is trying to get unpaid foreign labor from you, and that's illegal.



> This internship is just like a practical interview for him to access my merits as a potential employee, as it's quite difficult to hire a foreigner just from an interview, specially if it's a startup company.


Perhaps that's true. But it _should be_ more difficult to hire foreigners than to hire individuals already in Singapore who already have legal work permission.

To repeat, no, you cannot legally work in Singapore in most internships/trials, even unpaid, unless you have the proper work permission (or Singaporean citizenship). The MOM pursues both employers and employees for violations of these laws and regulations.



> Another question that I have is: Can I do a job search or attend interviews while I'm on a visit pass?


Yes.



> Also, I'm a freelance graphic and web designer and I mostly work online. If I happen to take a contract while I'm in Singapore and I designed a S$500 website for a client from Singapore, will it be considered "working on a visit pass" and is this illegal?


That's probably OK if there's no connection to Singapore, if the work time represents a small fraction of your visit, and if the work is incidental to your visit.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> In both cases you have the option to pay for your own air fare to/from Singapore if you wish, though my understanding is that in the case of the *S Pass your employer is required to pay for your return transportation* unless you voluntarily pay for your return transportation on your own.


Never heard of this requirement. 



divya1113 said:


> Hello, thanks for your info.
> 
> My employer will be offering me a place to stay, pay for my flight and provide me a stipend of S$400/month. But, he won't be paying me S$2,200 like you mentioned above.
> 
> ...


My 2 cents ? 

If a boss can't pay you a fair pay, but likes to 'evaluate you', based on my own and my friends/acquaintances experience in Singapore, the boss is selling you a dream, and most likely, he wants cheap labour.

Let me tell you how it went in all the case where people were asked to 'show their ability' : half the time, the boss said "no, you aren't good" and the guy was left in limbo.

The other half times, the boss says the guy is good, but not good enough, so end up negotiating for a much much lower fee.

If an Employer is good, they won't pull this kind of 'trial run' thing.

I have worked for good Start ups too, they pay fair wages, and if you don't perform, they do what every company does in Singapore - during the probation period, they will either terminate your employment, and pay you whatever that is due to you.

I see a very cheapskate boss here, again, if he wants you, he should know what you are capable of, from your resume and interview.

I may be wrong there, by the way. But experience says I am very correct.

As for job search while on tourist visa, there is nothing stopping you from doing so, unlike Canada or Australia.



divya1113 said:


> Also, I'm a freelance graphic and web designer and I mostly work online. If I happen to take a contract while I'm in Singapore and I designed a S$500 website for a client from Singapore, will it be considered "working on a visit pass" and is this illegal?


let me tell you, it is illegal, unless the guy paying you was your employer.

And 7 or 8 out of 10 times, MOM and ICA turns a blind eye, and the times they decide to do something about it, you will make it top news, and at the minimum, deported back home. And that's from having seen fellow colleagues being called in for an interview and then seen them sent home.

And every check is traced.

And working on Tourist visa ? Good- go for it  It is a very grey area, and from me, I will say, don't do it. The government knows the antics those on social visa do, and on and off, they do deport those violating the terms of the social visit visa.

And, in fact, there used to be a pass called "TRAINING PASS" for situations like yours, i.e. interns etc. and that was removed since the government found out that it was exploited beyond belief. Every other Small and medium business was applying for T Pass, paid the workers low salary, and those in consulting, charged their client full prices, and a few tips offs to MOM did the trick.



divya1113 said:


> This internship is just like a practical interview for him to access my merits as a potential employee, as it's quite difficult to hire a foreigner just from an interview, specially if it's a startup company.


PS, I was talking to my company HR, and one of our sister company is a start up, and they do need Digital media graphic designers. But with your intention to engage in freelance work, I am quite reluctant to even broach the subject.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

*Also, I'm a freelance graphic and web designer and I mostly work online. If I happen to take a contract while I'm in Singapore and I designed a S$500 website for a client from Singapore, will it be considered "working on a visit pass" and is this illegal?
*



BBCWatcher said:


> That's probably OK if there's no connection to Singapore, if the work time represents a small fraction of your visit, and if the work is incidental to your visit.


As said, I beg to disagree.

Engaging in any form of employment, grey area or otherwise, puts the visitor on the line.

And ICA/MOM knows a lot of Asians are here on social visa but engaging in part time / freelance works, and periodically a few get picked and sent home, or on their next return, refused entry with no reason given. And that includes a freelance make up artist I know and a freelance photographer. You may agree that their work was done in Singapore, but, why would ICA listen to your line of thinking ?


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

simonsays said:


> Never heard of this requirement.


I'm mixing up Work Permit and S Passes here -- sorry about that. Employers of Work Permit holders and FDWs have a repatriation obligation. S Passes and EPs, no.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> I'm mixing up Work Permit and S Passes here -- sorry about that. Employers of Work Permit holders and FDWs have a repatriation obligation. S Passes and EPs, no.


To be fair, I looked up the terms for EP and SP.

It says if the employee agrees, then the employer doesn't have to provide air fair, but I am pretty sure that 99.9% of employers sneak this waiver in the employment contract, except for those who come on Expat terms


----------



## divya1113 (Nov 9, 2015)

Thanks for your comments. I'll ask the employer head on and argue on the facts that you provided.



simonsays said:


> PS, I was talking to my company HR, and one of our sister company is a start up, and they do need Digital media graphic designers. But with your intention to engage in freelance work, I am quite reluctant to even broach the subject.


I don't get you over here. Is it bad to be a freelancer?


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

simonsays said:


> And that includes a freelance make up artist I know and a freelance photographer.


Those are different professions. If you're making up someone in Singapore on a STVP, that's clearly over the line.

So let's pick another example. Let's suppose you answer your telephone in Singapore while you're on vacation. It's a client in Buenos Aires, and the client has no connection whatsoever to Singapore. You talk for 30 minutes, give your client legal advice, and add those 30 minutes to your client's bill when you get back home. Let's suppose you bill US$1000 per hour (not terribly unusual for a top attorney), so it's US$500 in billing. You turn off your phone and enjoy the rest of your two week vacation in Singapore.

Is that activity a violation of your STVP? I would argue no. For what it's worth, the Immigration Act says this (about a visit pass holder): "....the holder shall not engage in any form of paid employment or in any business, profession or occupation in Singapore...." I assume there's some case law defining these boundaries.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> Is that activity a violation of your STVP? I would argue no. For what it's worth, the Immigration Act says this (about a visit pass holder): "....the holder shall not engage in any form of paid employment or in any business, profession or occupation in Singapore...." I assume there's some case law defining these boundaries.


It's a very, very grey area as I said. And it's not in favour of those freelancing while on SVP.

Well, why not email to ICA and ask ?   than beat around the bush ? 

A lawyer on holiday answering phone ? He won't be bothered, because, firstly, he is on holiday. Unlike those who are tagged as here to look for job. The former gets overlooked, the latter - well, monitored closely.

Well, let me put it this way, there are enough regional representatives who come to Singapore to do sales calls. Yes, that's a grey area too. But ICA will close an eye, as I said, as long as they know the guy is not here to do freelance work.

And comparing that to a tourist, who came here, and to be precise, and ASIAN tourist here, gets paid for freelance ? The ICA folks are gonna do the maximum to send a message that it's not welcome. 

A UK or US trade representative coming to Singapore, to pitch a sale for his Singapore Representative is not stealing job.

A tourist coming here, and earning 'pocket money' - In my opinion, it is not the same as above example. 

And again, why not email to ICA and ask ? So there'll be peace 



divya1113 said:


> ..


As per BBCWatcher's advice, go ahead and do it, as I said, the chance of you getting caught is very low


----------



## divya1113 (Nov 9, 2015)

I just talked to the employer. He admitted that it's illegal but chances of getting caught is too low.

I just told him that, even if the chances of getting caught is 0.5%, I'm not gonna come and work illegally and risk getting in legal troubles overseas.

I'm not going through with this guys. Who know, I just might be a cheap labor for him and later just say that I'm not good enough. Moreover, he was just paying S$3000/month if I passed the probation period.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

divya1113 said:


> I just talked to the employer. He admitted that it's illegal but chances of getting caught is too low.


That's rich, when an employer says he is knowingly breaking the law  If caught, he gets a fine. You get deported with next to zero chance of ever coming back here for any work. 



> I just told him that, even if the chances of getting caught is 0.5%, I'm not gonna come and work illegally and risk getting in legal troubles overseas.


Good decision ! Though I also believe in the saying, no pain no gain  Who knows, he may be the next Bill Gates or Creative Technology or Redmart, of Singapore !



> I'm not going through with this guys. Who know, I just might be a cheap labor for him and later just say that I'm not good enough. Moreover, he was just paying S$3000/month if I passed the probation period.


3,000 $ is not a bad salary, if you don't have much work experience. And as long as your flight ticket is paid, it's a decent salary, for somebody starting on junior level. 

On the other hand, having dealt with the good, bad and ugly, "IF PASSED THE PROBATION" means, 90% you won't get the 3,000 $, you may get less. And if the guy was a straight and no nonsense guy, he will pay the 3,000 from day 1, not after probation period.


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

I agree with SMS. I think you avoided a bad employer. Well done.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> I agree with SMS. I think you avoided a bad employer. Well done.


Who is SMS ???


----------



## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

simonsays said:


> Who is SMS ???


You. SiMonSays (SMS). I was just abbreviating, and "SS" somehow seemed wrong.  Maybe SmS would be better.


----------



## simonsays (Feb 11, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> You. SiMonSays (SMS). I was just abbreviating, and "SS" somehow seemed wrong.  Maybe SmS would be better.


I wouldn't want me self to be abbreviated. 

But not all my wishes come true I guess.

PS, how about Smnss ?


----------

