# UK or France



## Dipti99 (Mar 15, 2012)

Could you tell me whether UK or France is a better place for foreign workers?

My husband has been working in Paris for 1 year now and he has got chance and visa(Tier2) to relocate to Bedfordshire in UK with the same or higher salary.

Please tell the pros and cons of each considering the standard of living , safety concerns and eduction of children.

We are originally from India and not very fluent in French.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Not being very fluent in French is a big disadvantage if you're an expat in France. I'd consider the Bedfordshire offer very seriously, given that your English is apparently much better than your French.

The other consideration is whether or not you'll be able to work. I think the chances are higher if you're in the UK than in France. (Normally, in France, a dependent visa won't allow you to work, but things have changed recently, so you may want to check into that.)

The school system in the UK seems (to me, someone without children) to be a bit trickier to work through. In France, your children attend school based on where they live - period. In the UK you have to look for openings in "good" schools - but what I know of Bedfordshire, there should certainly be some good schools in the areas. I'm not impressed with the French schools (or what I hear about them) but then again, I don't have kids and haven't had to deal with them directly.

You can find some write-ups of the school systems in France and the UK here: EU - School systems in other EU countries - Your Europe

Cheers,
Bev


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I lived for many years in Bedfordshire, where are you re locating to?


----------



## Dipti99 (Mar 15, 2012)

Luton, I heard its not a great place. Is it a safe place and how is the quality of life there?


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I lived in Denbigh Road, Biscot Mill, Luton. This area now appears to be populated may mainly asian families. I also lived in Stopsley Luton.

I later lived in a village called Toddington. If I had to work in Luton again. I would not want to live in the town but would prefer one of the villages in the outlying countryside to the north or the west. The area beyond Dunstable towards the Beds Buckinghamshire border are very nice. Leighton Buzzard, Eaton Bray, Hockliffe, Houghton Regis all well within a short commute to Luton. Other places are Harlington, Eversholt, Ampthill, Flitwick.

Housing is expensive, this is because many commute to London from Bedfordshire and beyond.

Crime statistics, like any other large English town centre, they are not good, but try the outlying areas and you will find the statistics are reduced. If you Google, U.K. crime statistics, there are many sites here is one of them.

Police.uk - Local crime and policing information for England and Wales

Hepa


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I lived in Denbigh Road, Biscot Mill, Luton. This area now appears to be populated may mainly asian families.


Just to add that the Asian population in Luton is predominantly Pakistani and Bangladeshis. There are some Indians, but they are outnumbered by 3 to 1. They form around 20% of the population of Luton, but they are largely concentrated in a few inner wards (districts).


----------



## jlms (May 15, 2008)

Paris vs Luton? Really ? 

If language is the only issue then just learn it, the more difficult part, getting a job, is done and dusted, all the family would benefit in the long term by speaking French.

All things being equal I would never move to Luton from Paris, big towns like Paris are places for oportunity where things happen, Luton, as somebody already said, is a place where people go to sleep. No contest IMHO.

I would die to live in Paris btw


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

jlms said:


> Paris vs Luton? Really ?
> 
> If language is the only issue then just learn it, the more difficult part, getting a job, is done and dusted, all the family would benefit in the long term by speaking French.
> 
> ...


Of course Paris will provide a lot more than Luton!
But for an individual, working in Luton (UK) may be a good career move which should be another consideration.


----------



## Dipti99 (Mar 15, 2012)

jlms said:


> Paris vs Luton? Really ?
> 
> If language is the only issue then just learn it, the more difficult part, getting a job, is done and dusted, all the family would benefit in the long term by speaking French.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the feedback.
I agree that Paris is a beautiful city where I have lived for 1 year.

Basically for me its France vs England .
Since we are originally from India , I feel it would be better to go for England .
My concern was mainly the rising crime and whether its becoming worse.


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2012)

I am an Indian - who lived in UK and now in France. I quit UK because of 1) very high levels of crime, 2) way too much racism especially against Indians and 3) it's the most ugly country in the world and not worth it in my opinion.

In your situation - I don't know to be honest, I find France more welcoming and not racist towards Indians - in UK Indians have a very bad image despite the wealthiest man in UK also being an Indian - British hate Indians in reality - a lot of Indians living there however won't admit this openly....but seriously just google and research the amount of hate crimes and racist murders of Indians in UK as well as other nationalities. UK is also an institutionally racist country, far worse than France.....

Sorry to be so blunt - if you are not White skinned then life in UK is very bad and as an Indian if you really want to live there then you need at least £10-£20 million or more in assets to bypass all the racist bull**** that goes on in that country...and then the british keep denying it as usual.

Lastly - the biggest consideration for you and your husband - jobs in France are very secure, the labour laws in France dont allow an employer to fire someone so easily - but in UK they hire and fire at will all the time, so don't be tempted by a higher salary only...a lot of people are made redundant in UK. Most people who work in UK are also bullied at work - its a very aggressive work environment and I know this for a fact because even my European partner has to go through it. 

One more thing - UK schools are very bad mostly unless you are living in a very super wealthy area...or can afford private schooling. I would never put my kids in a British school now - they blame all these problems on immigrants - basically Asians or what they call "Pakis"....I never knew this was so bad in UK until I spent a few years there and quit...I'd rather live in India now than in UK. The word PAKI was invented by the British only and they use it for everyone from the Indian-subcontinent - not just Pakistanis. 

Learn French - it's a much better language than English.....there is really no crime in France very little...open up any British newspaper and see the crime situation for yourself.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Moving2France said:


> I am an Indian - who lived in UK and now in France. I quit UK because of 1) very high levels of crime, 2) way too much racism especially against Indians and 3) it's the most ugly country in the world and not worth it in my opinion.
> 
> In your situation - I don't know to be honest, I find France more welcoming and not racist towards Indians - in UK Indians have a very bad image despite the wealthiest man in UK also being an Indian - British hate Indians in reality - a lot of Indians living there however won't admit this openly....but seriously just google and research the amount of hate crimes and racist murders of Indians in UK as well as other nationalities. UK is also an institutionally racist country, far worse than France.....
> 
> ...


This is someone's personal experience and opinion, and you must take it as it is. Maybe you can find another person of Indian origin with contrary experience and view about living in UK. I personally know of several Indian families happily settled here and well integrated into society. So there is no substitute for making your own discovery. Just don't move into an Asian 'ghetto' but try to integrate with mainstream British society. While racism exists everywhere (including France - not so much directed against Asians because there aren't that many but against North Africans and Arabs), you can rise above it by having a high principle and live a decent life and bring your children accordingly.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

No crime in France??

I seem to recall just recently an incident in Toulouse, that was spread over the international press.

Crime occurs s everywhere, no matter if you are in Paris, Huddersfield or beyond.


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2012)

Sorry - do you think I am one of those Indians who lived in "asian ghettos"?? 

FYI - I used to live in the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea in London and basically never left the area after my experiences and what I have seen in UK. Indians deny racism in the UK - a lot of them deliberately "avoid" racism by living in these so called Indian ghettos - they prefer to live in their community, do business with other Indians and basically want no contact with British people not because they want this but in many cases they are FORCED to live like this due to fears of racism and being attacked. Try walking into a country pub in some English village as an Indian and see how they treat you. British reject Indians - that's why Indians live in ghettos in UK unless they are rich enough to live in the wealthy areas but even then they have to live very "restrictive" lives - I want to be free...to walk...drive...go where I want and in France I do this ...I go everywhere and don't feel scared. In UK - even driving a luxury car I was harassed by Police - everyone goes through it, I spoke to many people and they said not to take it so seriously but how can I not take it seriously???

In France the French don't attack and kill Maghrebis - there is a different kind of racism that exists in France - its not a "dangerous" kind of racism though. North Africans and Muslims as well as other foreigners in France may not get to climb the top of their career ladders but they are not discriminated socially as much as in UK where basically "dark" skinned people are excluded. France doens't have a history of hanging signs outside their hotels and restaurants in the past which read "Dogs and Indians not allowed in" or "Dogs and Irish not allowed"...UK's history has been very racist and very degrading - obviously they are trying to change it now and they have good laws on paper however in reality it's still the same old nonsense.


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2012)

Hepa said:


> No crime in France??
> 
> I seem to recall just recently an incident in Toulouse, that was spread over the international press.
> 
> Crime occurs s everywhere, no matter if you are in Paris, Huddersfield or beyond.



ONE isolated incident in Toulouse, France compared to the thousands that happen in UK each year? Please research your facts - it's a lot worse in Britain.

I can't post url's here otherwise I would show lots of proof.

UK has only 1 edge over france - easier to find a job for a foreigner but seriously the quality of life in Britain is very low even if you don't bother about the crime or racism. See this forum how many people here including the OP of this post are concerned about "crime" in UK - so there must be some reality to it.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Moving2France said:


> Sorry - do you think I am one of those Indians who lived in "asian ghettos"??
> 
> FYI - I used to live in the Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea in London and basically never left the area after my experiences and what I have seen in UK. Indians deny racism in the UK - a lot of them deliberately "avoid" racism by living in these so called Indian ghettos - they prefer to live in their community, do business with other Indians and basically want no contact with British people not because they want this but in many cases they are FORCED to live like this due to fears of racism and being attacked. Try walking into a country pub in some English village as an Indian and see how they treat you. British reject Indians - that's why Indians live in ghettos in UK unless they are rich enough to live in the wealthy areas but even then they have to live very "restrictive" lives - I want to be free...to walk...drive...go where I want and in France I do this ...I go everywhere and don't feel scared. In UK - even driving a luxury car I was harassed by Police - everyone goes through it, I spoke to many people and they said not to take it so seriously but how can I not take it seriously???
> 
> In France the French don't attack and kill Maghrebis - there is a different kind of racism that exists in France - its not a "dangerous" kind of racism though. North Africans and Muslims as well as other foreigners in France may not get to climb the top of their career ladders but they are not discriminated socially as much as in UK where basically "dark" skinned people are excluded. France doens't have a history of hanging signs outside their hotels and restaurants in the past which read "Dogs and Indians not allowed in" or "Dogs and Irish not allowed"...UK's history has been very racist and very degrading - obviously they are trying to change it now and they have good laws on paper however in reality it's still the same old nonsense.


But it's still your own experience and opinion. I can introduce you to several Indians or British-born with Indian heritage who are totally integrated, occupy high positions in society and widely respected. Of course there is racism just about everywhre, and there are people with twisted mind and those who fall for propaganda of BNP and EDL, but there are many more that repudiate their ridiculous and dangeous lies and stand up for human rights. And the best way to counter racism, both of overt and covert kind, isn't to shout racism every time you experience something unpleasant but live your own life with high moral principles and treating others as you'd like them to treat you - the golden rule. Though I'm not Indian, it has always worked for me.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Moving2France said:


> ONE isolated incident in Toulouse, France compared to the thousands that happen in UK each year? Please research your facts - it's a lot worse in Britain.
> 
> I can't post url's here otherwise I would show lots of proof.
> 
> UK has only 1 edge over france - easier to find a job for a foreigner but seriously the quality of life in Britain is very low even if you don't bother about the crime or racism. See this forum how many people here including the OP of this post are concerned about "crime" in UK - so there must be some reality to it.


I must bow to your somewhat superior knowledge, for my 30 years experience of criminal law enforcement, the recording of crime, and the prosecution of the perpetrators of crime, obviously does not count. I shall humbly take your advice and research my facts.............


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Moving2France said:


> ONE isolated incident in Toulouse, France compared to the thousands that happen in UK each year? Please research your facts - it's a lot worse in Britain.
> 
> I can't post url's here otherwise I would show lots of proof.
> 
> UK has only 1 edge over france - easier to find a job for a foreigner but seriously the quality of life in Britain is very low even if you don't bother about the crime or racism. See this forum how many people here including the OP of this post are concerned about "crime" in UK - so there must be some reality to it.



My best friend lives in France and she says that its really no different crime wise to the UK! They live in a small village and so dont see much in the way of criminal activities - but then in the UK she lived in a small village and didnt see much criminal activity. Larger towns and areas are about the same according to her and she wouldnt walk around late at night on her own in either of them. As for quality of life, well again according to my friend its better in France, but its much more expensive there than the UK. What my friend does is she and her husband travel to Spain for the winter, that way they get their full english, british TV and newspapers - which are all they miss from the UK and its cheaper


Jo xxxx


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2012)

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Moving2France said:


> The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online
> 
> UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph


I'm not sure why newspaper articles are of any significance really (especially the Mail LOL). They dont tell you anything apart from making interesting reading... or not. Crime only shows on the radar when its caught and documented, it also matters what sort of crime, against whom, where and why. There are many places in the UK where there isnt any crime that would affect "mr and mrs Average", just as anywhere else in the world. For example I know that a mile or so from where I live in the UK, there is a drug and prostitution problem - the police are powerless to do anything about it, so it doesnt really show up on any figures. But it doesnt affect me, cos I dont do either, so its not a problem!

Jo xxx


----------



## istcan (Mar 3, 2012)

Living in France with no French is practically not possible. Living in Paris with no French is like finding a psychopath dentist, insulting and slapping him on the face and afterwards asking him for a free root canal operation 

Without French you may have great problems with police, hospitals and courts even if you can somehow cope with daily issues with basic French. If you are very young you can easily learn French but with children and work responsibilities, this can be very difficult. 

So the answer depends also on your circumstances. Personally I would rather spend time and effort at a different language or skill than learning French so my suggestion would be England.

Please note that an awful amount of burglaries take place in France, I have no idea about violent crime.


----------



## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

IMO, if you live in France you'll need (at a min.) conversational French. I have been visiting my Fr-in-laws (parents, brothers, sisters) for months at a time over a few decades. You'll also need to be able to read enough legalese in French to not get your self in trouble (or enough to get yourself out of trouble). If you thinks it bad in English wait to you see it in French! Reliance on a native spouse only works as long as their alive. If the expert Fr. speaker in the relationship dies you could be i trouble in a country where you are not fluent.


----------



## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

BTW, there is enormous racism in France and property & vehicle crime is outrageous


----------



## teletubby (Apr 3, 2012)

Moving2France said:


> I am an Indian - who lived in UK and now in France. I quit UK because of 1) very high levels of crime, 2) way too much racism especially against Indians and 3) it's the most ugly country in the world and not worth it in my opinion.
> 
> In your situation - I don't know to be honest, I find France more welcoming and not racist towards Indians - in UK Indians have a very bad image despite the wealthiest man in UK also being an Indian - British hate Indians in reality - a lot of Indians living there however won't admit this openly....but seriously just google and research the amount of hate crimes and racist murders of Indians in UK as well as other nationalities. UK is also an institutionally racist country, far worse than France.....
> 
> ...



I see a lot of 'racism' here towards the UK - The UK is 'racist'? Are you freaking kidding me?


----------



## teletubby (Apr 3, 2012)

Moving2France - when you were in the UK, did you think that you were in historical south africa or something? seriously? The UK is one of the most secure places in the world, in terms of jobs and I am a British asian oh ma God, I cannot believe I am reading lies against my country what a .....


----------



## mistbound4england (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow this def looks like somebdy has alot of hatred towards the UK. Obviously at one point or another it was a good enough country for you to live in was it not? This is unbelieveable! There is racism all over the world, its not just the UK. I for one am happy the UK has CCTV because crime rates have dropped significantly. The UK has many diff cultures living there, same as anywhere else. Very crumby opinion if I do say so myself. <3 the UK


----------



## coll123 (Oct 11, 2011)

I agree with Joppa, it is one's own experience and opinion. Racism exist everywhere.I have lived in Dubai for twenty years and there was never a time when I was not racially discriminated, in spite of the population there being 50% Indians . Crime and racism exists even in India and the rest of the world and that is why people are moving to other parts in search of freedom and Peace.


----------



## snoezig (Nov 21, 2011)

I just want to say that when I lived in the UK I did fear becoming of victim of street violence. The problem is that there are a lot of drunk aggressive people out in the streets at night. Once a drunk hit me with an empty vodka bottle.

Now that I live in France I live in fear of somebody breaking into my flat or stealing our car or bicycles. This usually doesn't involve violence, but I know that I would feel so violated if somebody did that to me. I am afraid of burglars (posing as utility workmen) knocking on my door. This is why I always open my door when somebody knocks because if they know somebody is there they go away.

I used to think the problems I had in the UK were worse (drunks and drinking among other things), but I have become paranoid about people stealing from me in France.


----------



## Guest (Apr 8, 2012)

There is a lot of violent crime in UK - in France there are more petty criminals who will steal or break in, but they won't kill you at least. UK and even London has a lot of passive-aggressive behaviour, go out on a weekend anywhere in London and try taking the tube back after 10 pm... it stinks of alcohol and full of loud drunk teenagers as well as young adults...stay clear of them or else they are capable of physically assaulting you. Look at the street crime in UK, its outrageous, there is no comparison with France. Oh and as for racism - please google what just happened last week - Scotland Yard and the Met Police are in the biggest racist scandal of the past 30 years now...they have suspended more than 10 officers for being institutionally racist....it's pretty bad in the UK. The British villages are most dangerous, full of yobs and messed up kids, it's scary to see where British society is headed.



snoezig said:


> I just want to say that when I lived in the UK I did fear becoming of victim of street violence. The problem is that there are a lot of drunk aggressive people out in the streets at night. Once a drunk hit me with an empty vodka bottle.
> 
> Now that I live in France I live in fear of somebody breaking into my flat or stealing our car or bicycles. This usually doesn't involve violence, but I know that I would feel so violated if somebody did that to me. I am afraid of burglars (posing as utility workmen) knocking on my door. This is why I always open my door when somebody knocks because if they know somebody is there they go away.
> 
> I used to think the problems I had in the UK were worse (drunks and drinking among other things), but I have become paranoid about people stealing from me in France.


----------



## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Moving2France said:


> There is a lot of violent crime in UK - in France there are more petty criminals who will steal or break in, but they won't kill you at least. UK and even London has a lot of passive-aggressive behaviour, go out on a weekend anywhere in London and try taking the tube back after 10 pm... it stinks of alcohol and full of loud drunk teenagers as well as young adults...stay clear of them or else they are capable of physically assaulting you. Look at the street crime in UK, its outrageous, there is no comparison with France. Oh and as for racism - please google what just happened last week - Scotland Yard and the Met Police are in the biggest racist scandal of the past 30 years now...they have suspended more than 10 officers for being institutionally racist....it's pretty bad in the UK. The British villages are most dangerous, full of yobs and messed up kids, it's scary to see where British society is headed.


The UK has its issues, but so does France. I'm very glad that you are so loyal to France as you have chosen it for your home. But does that loyalty insist you denigrate the UK unfairly? You don't seem willing at all to address the very real issues in France. 

Yes, there do seem to be some rather serious social and crime issues in the UK. I will suggest, however, that *so far the UK has managed to avoid having TWO spree-serial killers arise in the very short space of the last three months*; rioting by disaffected youth is not an every weekend occurrence here in the UK. I could go on.

Ya know? Here's something to think about. The yobs, the institutionalised racism is being addressed here; as evidenced by the Summer 2011 Riots convictions, the recent Stephen Lawrence murder convictions, the recent Met suspensions, the football sectarianism convictions...

Can't really understand your vitriol, how's about we all agree to disagree, and you follow the old "If you haven't anything nice to say, say nothing. Silence is often louder than shouts..."


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

In both countries, it depends where you live. I'm in Southern England and its pretty safe. My best friend lives in Southern France and its pretty safe. There are areas and people in both countries that are less safe and less comfortable. Both countries have had their share of riots and public disorders and both countries have had some highly publicized murders/madmen!

The only difference IMO is that the British media tend to sensationalise, exaggerate and bang on and on about the negatives too much, France tends not to

Jo xxx


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2012)

Trust me - I am not "biased" against UK at all - nor do I favour one country over the other for any personal hidden reasons....there is NOTHING like that. 

Stephen Lawrence Murder case took like what 18 years to get convictions? And right after that the Met has gotten itself into another bigger scandal with institutional racism - such things are NEVER heard of in France where police is killing blacks and abusing so openly - I have spent more than 2 years in France on and off as a resident and tourist and never heard of anything like this. 

The recent killings in France in my opinion are some political stunt right before the election...which a lot of french people think as well... otherwise even if they are not - compared to the amount of serial killings in UK and racist attacks - for example the London Nail Bomber (David Copeland) - there is no comparison with the few little incidents happening in France. 

I have plenty of British friends - but yes its hard to discuss the crime and violence situation with British people - however even the cleaning lady in my apartment in London used to talk about how scared she and her family were to go freely in most parts of England due to high levels of racism and crime. French racism is not at all violent in nature - it is more petty silly stuff...the same as it is in Italy and most other Latin countries....they make a stupid comment about you or make a silly face but thats about it. Anyway like I said - I don't feel scared or uncomfortable travelling around in France or even Italy and Spain...and many other EU countries...but in the UK - I was restricted to a small area of central London outside of which I did not feel comfortable due to the behaviour I saw and witnessed all the time. Many people do not like to move to UK for the same reason, high levels of Crime and racism...and for foreigners it's even worse because British authorities are proven to be highly institutionally racist. I am surprised you haven't read this yet - 

Scotland Yard plunged into racism crisis - Crime - UK - The Independent

Sorry none of this happens in any other EU country - not to my knowledge, I travel frequently and keep up with the news, there may be intolerance towards certain religions and far-right movements in many european countries but the English Defence League and BNP are the leaders of such movements across Europe. 

Lastly, once again I am not biased or prejudiced at all - facts are facts - I challenge you to prove that France is as bad or worse than UK in violent crime and racist attacks as well as institutional racism - research the facts and look at the statistics you can find them all quite easily and the decide where it is better or worse.

Merci Beaucoup!!




AnAmericanInScotland said:


> The UK has its issues, but so does France. I'm very glad that you are so loyal to France as you have chosen it for your home. But does that loyalty insist you denigrate the UK unfairly? You don't seem willing at all to address the very real issues in France.
> 
> Yes, there do seem to be some rather serious social and crime issues in the UK. I will suggest, however, that *so far the UK has managed to avoid having TWO spree-serial killers arise in the very short space of the last three months*; rioting by disaffected youth is not an every weekend occurrence here in the UK. I could go on.
> 
> ...


----------



## Guest (Apr 9, 2012)

I only lived 2.5 years in UK and LEFT for the reasons I spoke about here - when I first moved there I had no clue how disgusting it was really. It may be a good country for desperate people trying to escape something but it was certainly not for me, I am not trying to escape anything nor do I live in France for economic reasons. I've actually spent more time in France than UK overall through my life and the more time I spend in France the more I love it....as for UK... I have no desire to even go back for a visit....too dangerous....LOL.



mistbound4england said:


> Wow this def looks like somebdy has alot of hatred towards the UK. Obviously at one point or another it was a good enough country for you to live in was it not? This is unbelieveable! There is racism all over the world, its not just the UK. I for one am happy the UK has CCTV because crime rates have dropped significantly. The UK has many diff cultures living there, same as anywhere else. Very crumby opinion if I do say so myself. <3 the UK


----------



## Guest (Apr 10, 2012)

Knife victim: I'm glad to leave dangerous UK - News - Evening Standard

For all those who claim UK is a safe country - sorry I am not the only one who feels it's the most dangerous "western" country to live in....no thanks...even in some developing countries there is not such violent street crimes....those have more opportunistic petty crimes but this is a different level.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I think this thread has run its course. So I'm closing it.


----------

