# Suggestion for January 9th??



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Since reading about these proposed demolitions, a subject I knew nothing about until I read the posts here, I've thought a lot about what if anything practical could be done to resolve the situation and keep a roof over at least some peoples' heads.
I would like to suggest that as well as the marmalade and Morris dancing, the focal point of the day be the launch of a petition calling on the JDA to:

*1)impose an immediate moratorium on all proposed demolitions of illegal dwellings
2) set up an independent panel whose brief would be to examine with evidence all the circumstances leading up to the building of the illegal constructions
3) if any official, politician,developer or seller is found to have been guilty of fraud of any kind, whether through misrepresentation, receiving any kind of inducement or political advantage in the construction of a building, then his/her assets should be sequestrated and compensation paid to the victim
4) a levy of 0.5% be put on profits arising from any sale or development, the proceeds to go to a fund to compensate innocent victims of muddle or lack of information, such as the Priors.

I think it would be a good idea to get a Spaniard who has the threat of demolition hanging over his/her head to be the first signatory and public face of the campaign. The completed petition should be handed in to the local representative of the JDA.*

Now, that may be a daft idea but it can't do any harm. It's also a positive initiative which would get positive publicity in the Spanish and foreign media and would put the JDA on the spot. It wouldn't be exclusively British and it wouldn't offend locals by suggesting that without immigrant money they would all be riding donkeys etc. etc. Incidentally, no-one actually _*knows*_ how valuable the contribution of foreign money is. Surely nothing could annoy Spaniards who are proud people more than a suggestion however unintentional that we Brits arrived like missionaries in darkest Africa to rescue them from a semi-barbarous state.
It may well be that a few people such as those mentioned by riablanca will lose their homes but that would have been the case in the UK, not just Spain. If as is alleged most of those threatened are victims of fraud, corruption or political favours then this would be publicly shown to be so and the victims would be compensated.
In cases like this, it's not enough IMO to make statements without facts to back them up. A simple error -for example stating that the Priors 'bought a house' when in fact they bought land and acted as promotores to build the house- discredits the cause and gives needless ammunition to those who were against in the first place.
I'm sure there must be even more practical ideas than the one I'm putting forward and I'm sure Lenox doesn't want to be a one-man-band so is this a 'good' idea?
Or not??


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

What a great post and a great idea!!! I'm all for trying to help folk and miantain and promote a happy union between Spain and its expats!! 

I cnt think of anything at the mo cos I'm slowly, but surely filling myself up with festive "spirit" hic, hic,!!!LOL

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> What a great post and a great idea!!! I'm all for trying to help folk and miantain and promote a happy union between Spain and its expats!!
> 
> I cnt think of anything at the mo cos I'm slowly, but surely filling myself up with festive "spirit" hic, hic,!!!LOL
> 
> Jo xxxx


So glad you arrived safely and thanks for your kind words
Now....enjoy!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm sure there must be even more practical ideas than the one I'm putting forward and I'm sure Lenox doesn't want to be a one-man-band so is this a 'good' idea?
> Or not??


How about some morris dancers and marmalade?????????? 
Sorry, sorry, sorry - couldn't resist! Will try to be more sensible later on


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> What a great post and a great idea!!! I'm all for trying to help folk and miantain and promote a happy union between Spain and its expats!!
> 
> I cnt think of anything at the mo cos I'm slowly, but surely filling myself up with festive "spirit" hic, hic,!!!LOL
> 
> Jo xxxx


Oh God !!! I thought we'd got rid of her..


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Since reading about these proposed demolitions, a subject I knew nothing about until I read the posts here, I've thought a lot about what if anything practical could be done to resolve the situation and keep a roof over at least some peoples' heads.
> I would like to suggest that as well as the marmalade and Morris dancing, the focal point of the day be the launch of a petition calling on the JDA to:
> 
> *1)impose an immediate moratorium on all proposed demolitions of illegal dwellings
> ...


A very sensible agenda that can do no one any harm.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> Oh God !!! I thought we'd got rid of her..


You cant get rid of me that easily LOL

Jo xxxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

playamonte said:


> A very sensible agenda that can do no one any harm.



As a forum, we seem to be getting involved in this "illegal build" issue at the moment, altho we're not too interested in the use of force or battle to "win" any votes, just to rectify and help - I think???, do you have any involvement or opinion? 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> As a forum, we seem to be getting involved in this "illegal build" issue at the moment, altho we're not too interested in the use of force or battle to "win" any votes, just to rectify and help - I think???, do you have any involvement or opinion?
> 
> Jo xxx


I will not be travelling down to the south of Spain to march or do anything in person, but I can give my opinion, based on what I've seen on this forum largely. I think the ideas given by *mrypg9* seem sensible enough, not undo-able, and not insensitive. 
If the group around the Priors and others in this situation are to make any progress they *have to *

Get as many Spaniards as poss involved
Get as many facts as possible
And the information has to be available in as many languages as *necessary*
They need to stop banging on about Brits being hard done by. It's Brits and any other nationality that are in this situation


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I will not be travelling down to the south of Spain to march or do anything in person, but I can give my opinion, based on what I've seen on this forum largely. I think the ideas given by *mrypg9* seem sensible enough, not undo-able, and not insensitive.
> If the group around the Priors and others in this situation are to make any progress they *have to *
> 
> Get as many Spaniards as poss involved
> ...


Thanks I really welcome your support as you and others are long-time residents in Spain, fully integrated and know the ropes. As a new-comer I was intrigued by what I have read and of course sorry for anyone losing their home forwhatever the reason, as any half-way decent person would. I have no intention of getting physically involved but I do feel that more than mere sympathy is needed.
So....if this idea is 'do-able'.....any ideas as to where to go next with it? Lenox isn't interested and is in fact dismissive which is sad as I thought he or whoever is running the Jan 9th event would at least consider it.
Does anyone have any links with any person or persons with influence who might at least be willing to consider the idea?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> Oh God !!! I thought we'd got rid of her..


Stop being frivolous and tell me what you think of what I've suggested
Your opinions are sensible and constructive and I respect them and would be interested in your POV.
Unless you are more interested in the weather, price of carrots etc etcthat is

BTW, will it ever stop raing?? Fourth consecutive day of torrential rain, gale-force winds, thunder, lightning... Better than snow and ice, though, I guess.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Incidentally, someone pointed me to the thread on the European Elections...very interesting.
Now I have a terrible confession to make: I was a candidate in a previous European election.
For a while I was horrified to think that I might have won as I stood in what was considered a safe seat for my opponent.
But that year there was a huge Green vote which upset things.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with the price of carrots.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Well hello everyone. I'm sorry not to have seen/replied to this particular thread before, but the fact is I hadn't seen it.
I generally only read this forum when I'm drunk.
(Joke, Mypeg, Joke)
So, at the moment, breath is bated here in Eastern Almeria as rumour filters down of another eight families being served with demolition papers in the surprisingly lovely town of Albox (Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence!). 
I'll wait and see if there is confirmation.
As far as the Prior's anniversary goes, I'll pass on what is decided up here by the various property owners associations as I get it.
As far as Mypeg's suggestion of bringing the Junta de Andalucia to task, the local AULAN assoc has presented a 'decalogue' of recommendations, along the lines of both my own and Mypegs ideas - i.e. responsibility, accountability, transparency, protection and so on. 
They couldn't give a Monkey's.
The AULAN are now talking with the Izquierda Unida (a left-wing minor party with some representation in the J of A).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> Well hello everyone. I'm sorry not to have seen/replied to this particular thread before, but the fact is I hadn't seen it.
> I generally only read this forum when I'm drunk.
> (
> ).


Are you sure you hadn't seen it before - you referred to it in another post.
But maybe you are muddled because you are drunk
And that often explains why you seem a little confused.??
Very important to know how to hold your liquor, you know.....


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> As a forum, we seem to be getting involved in this "illegal build" issue at the moment, altho we're not too interested in the use of force or battle to "win" any votes, just to rectify and help - I think???, do you have any involvement or opinion?
> 
> Jo xxx


Involvement no, but of course like most an opinion.
It is hard to believe that Spanish establishment can continue to allow this issue to fester away without trying to Publicly study it at length & Publicly right any injustice that has been done to the Common Man.
The law may of course need to be changed to pursue those self serving individuals who have knowingly scammed the system & a number of buyers, but it is clearly in their own interests to do so.
We are told that Spain relies heavily on tourism & construction, and of course these go hand in hand in many respects & as as result of this success they have attracted countless thousands of other Europeans to move here Who Spend, their family's & friends visit and They Spend (to state the bleeding obvious)
They are intent on implementing a blanket ban on smoking that can only damage the tourist trade at this delicate time.
Valencia made a commitment to give access to the health system if you settled here & signed on the padron, yet we are now told that they are to revoke this commitment which is frankly morally wrong. Yes by all means say that it has now finished & anyone else moving here can no longer have this.

Talk about giving yourself a good kick in the nuts !


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Lenox has been involved with the authorities for a long time maybe, I dont know. Maybe he knows how difficult it is to deal with the authorities over here, I dont know. 

What I do know is that EU have been pretty inefective in dealing with the land grab issues over a long period of time, with all the power and legal strength they have ... what chance have "the locals" I wonder


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Lenox has been involved with the authorities for a long time maybe, I dont know. Maybe he knows how difficult it is to deal with the authorities over here, I dont know.
> 
> What I do know is that EU have been pretty inefective in dealing with the land grab issues over a long period of time, with all the power and legal strength they have ... what chance have "the locals" I wonder


As with most politics and politicians , there are different opinions and views on the best way of dealing with everything! I personally feel that, certainly with Spain, the softly softly approach is far more rewarding and successful. It may sound patronising, but I believe the Spanish are a proud and strong race, who wont take kindly to a bunch of foreigners telling them what to do however long they've lived there or however "intergrated" they may be!. Lenox seems to be going at it from the other angle and also gives the impression that its his battle and is leading a campaign of "Brits v Spanish authorities" and wants to win rather than getting what the Priors need. 

Jo xxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Lenox for President

Happy Christmas everyone.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> Lenox for President
> 
> Happy Christmas everyone.



And back atcha!!! 

Jo xxxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks I really welcome your support as you and others are long-time residents in Spain, fully integrated and know the ropes. As a new-comer I was intrigued by what I have read and of course sorry for anyone losing their home forwhatever the reason, as any half-way decent person would. I have no intention of getting physically involved but I do feel that more than mere sympathy is needed.
> So....if this idea is 'do-able'.....any ideas as to where to go next with it? Lenox isn't interested and is in fact dismissive which is sad as I thought he or whoever is running the Jan 9th event would at least consider it.
> Does anyone have any links with any person or persons with influence who might at least be willing to consider the idea?


Thanks for the vote of confidence mrypg9, but it's actually not true. I don't know the ropes as I've never been involved in the area of building, buying land, planning regulations etc. The only thing I've done is buy the house where I now live and I did that with my very competent partner who is Spanish.
On this forum Tallulah knows what's she's talking about as she's been there, done that, and a couple of others, but can't think who now. And it seems that Lenox has had a lot of contact with local politics too, but as he's well known and his politics too, I don't know if that's a plus or a minus!
David Searl is an expert on law in Spain (although he has his critics of course!) Here’s one book that may help people understand the law in Spain. He has another one that’s just about property in Spain. I’ve not used the books, but I’ve read articles of his and they are well documented and easy to understand. I believe he lives near Mijas so perhaps somebody could try to contact him, or perhaps Lenox already has ??
You & the Law in Spain (2009-2010 / 20th Edition) | buy books online with Santana Books, Spanish titles in English.
Getting chucked off the computer now...


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> I personally feel that, certainly with Spain, the softly softly approach is far more rewarding and successful. It may sound patronising, but I believe the Spanish are a proud and strong race, who wont take kindly to a bunch of foreigners telling them what to do


Really .... thats interesting. because in the time I have spent here over the last 5 years or so I have found that you get best results by asserting yourself. I've found that this approach doesnt annoy the Spaniards, on the contrary it seems to gain some respect and does get things done. I've also had that advice from Spaniards themselves who say those who shout loudest get noticed, if you sit back and say nothing then other voices are heard rather than yours


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> Really .... thats interesting. because in the time I have spent here over the last 5 years or so I have found that you get best results by asserting yourself. I've found that this approach doesnt annoy the Spaniards, on the contrary it seems to gain some respect and does get things done. I've also had that advice from Spaniards themselves who say those who shout loudest get noticed, if you sit back and say nothing then other voices are heard rather than yours


Perhaps the thing is to be neither one extreme or the other; have the facts, be polite and don't go away. And perhaps it's the same in the UK and in Spain. I'm just trying to think when I've had to complain. Restaurants, once about my papers when they had the number wrong(!!), taking stuff back to shops (the worst experience was in Marks and Sparks here in Madrid years ago), the post office... If you have the facts and you can prove it there's very little to be done. If you don't have the back up that's another story.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Oh, never be impolite ... thats a major error. But be firm and insistant, and that does the job. Be quiet and timid and you get pushed to the back of the queue. I'm not talking about complaining btw, I am just talking about things in general.



Pesky Wesky said:


> Perhaps the thing is to be neither one extreme or the other; have the facts, be polite and don't go away. And perhaps it's the same in the UK and in Spain. I'm just trying to think when I've had to complain. Restaurants, once about my papers when they had the number wrong(!!), taking stuff back to shops (the worst experience was in Marks and Sparks here in Madrid years ago), the post office... If you have the facts and you can prove it there's very little to be done. If you don't have the back up that's another story.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> Lenox has been involved with the authorities for a long time maybe, I dont know. Maybe he knows how difficult it is to deal with the authorities over here, I dont know.
> 
> What I do know is that EU have been pretty inefective in dealing with the land grab issues over a long period of time, with all the power and legal strength they have ... what chance have "the locals" I wonder


Yes, it's true that nothing seems to have got going with this. Too many politicians and politics involved on all sides I imagine. Another suggestion, probably to be shot down by all, is on a local level the OMIC (Oficina Municipal de Informacion al Consumidor). It's a bit like the CAB in the UK. The Priors local one is 

OMIC
Plaza Mayor 1</SPAN>
04620 Vera, Spain

950 39 31 44
They are attached to the town hall though I think...</SPAN>


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Hi PW - I'd gone to that office about a month ago as it happens, to complain about our local water company (which cut my water when I was away - for a bill they had found, but never told me about - from 2004). The lady there seems nice.
I've not heard anything back about the water company, of course.
We are waiting on events down in Eastern Almeria as the 'word' is that eight more families were served demo orders over Christmas. These in Albox.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

lenox said:


> Hi PW - I'd gone to that office about a month ago as it happens, to complain about our local water company (which cut my water when I was away - for a bill they had found, but never told me about - from 2004). The lady there seems nice.
> I've not heard anything back about the water company, of course.
> We are waiting on events down in Eastern Almeria as the 'word' is that eight more families were served demo orders over Christmas. These in Albox.


Hmm, yes. I think the OMIC knows the ins and outs of all these things and they can certainly tell people the basic guidelines of who, what, where, but I know for example the biggest area of complaints that they deal with are about Telefónica and we know that Telefónica just carry on doing what they want whenever they want. So once again perhaps swift action shouldn't be expected if you go to an OMIC. There again, the more papers you have signed and stamped that you did this action on that date, the better!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Perhaps the thing is to be neither one extreme or the other; have the facts, be polite and don't go away. And perhaps it's the same in the UK and in Spain. I'm just trying to think when I've had to complain. Restaurants, once about my papers when they had the number wrong(!!), taking stuff back to shops (the worst experience was in Marks and Sparks here in Madrid years ago), the post office... If you have the facts and you can prove it there's very little to be done. If you don't have the back up that's another story.


Yes, the facts are important. As I've said before,make wild assertions about corruption, illegality and so on without backup and you won't be listened to.
Firm ,reasonable and insistent and most importantly get everyone on your side.
When the Christmas/New Year break is over I'm going to contact Michael Cashman MEP with whom I've had dealings on other issues. He was involved in the discussions in Strasburg and Brussels and it will be interesting to get an insider view from the European Parliament.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> What I do know is that EU have been pretty inefective in dealing with the land grab issues over a long period of time, with all the power and legal strength they have ... what chance have "the locals" I wonder


The European Parliament has very little power, at least up to now. The controversial Lisbon Treaty was designed to remedy this but Parliament will still not have micro-management authority over Regional and local authorities and if you think about it, perhaps it shouldn't. The Commission can issue Directives but they in turn often contain opt-out clauses to suit national sensibilities.
A very good example of this is the Directive which in Spain and the Netherlands led to marriage for same-sex couples with full legal parity with heterosexual couples. The UK chose to go the Civil Partnership route which does not have quite the same status.
So Spain, the UK and all EU member states will retain control over their planning procedures unless an Environmental Impact assessment is required for sensitive areas.
The EU is an odd, frankly rather undemocratic creature. We mustn't complain too much, though, as the Single European Act gives us the freedom to live, work and invest our money in any EU member state.
I read somewhere on this forum a post which said that if we left the EU (which aint gonna happen) we could all get visas and carry on as normal. I don't think so. Fortunately the trend is the other way, with the Schengen Agreement of which I think Spain is a member. 
A lot of our American friends in Prague had to go back to the US after years of living and working in the CR - some were deported. Not all had visa applications approved.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Involvement no, but of course like most an opinion.
> It is hard to believe that Spanish establishment can continue to allow this issue to fester away without trying to Publicly study it at length & Publicly right any injustice that has been done to the Common Man.
> The law may of course need to be changed to pursue those self serving individuals who have knowingly scammed the system & a number of buyers, but it is clearly in their own interests to do so.
> We are told that Spain relies heavily on tourism & construction, and of course these go hand in hand in many respects & as as result of this success they have attracted countless thousands of other Europeans to move here Who Spend, their family's & friends visit and They Spend (to state the bleeding obvious)
> ...


Tourism and the money it brings will always play an important role in Spain but construction bubble has burst for a very long time, I'm afraid. There are 1.6 million unsold homes in Spain at the present time so it's unlikely it will play a major role for decades.
The strong euro may well cause tourists to look outside the Eurozone - Turkey and long-haul destinations are taking a growing share of the holiday market.
Smoking bans are a fact of life in many places, I'm afraid. I can understand a ban on smoking anywhere food is served -good restaurants have always had a post-prandial smoking room -but people should be able to choose betweeen smoking and non-smoking bars and cafes.
As for the Valencia commitment - I don't know about this but they are obliged by EU rules to give health care to those entitled to the E121 and emergency care under the EHIC. The funding for this is transferred from national governments.
I can only think that Valencia were out of their tiny minds to offer free health care to all who signed on the padron.
Where on earth did they think they would get the money to fund it from


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I can only think that Valencia were out of their tiny minds to offer free health care to all who signed on the padron.
> Where on earth did they think they would get the money to fund it from


Maybe the idea was to encourage expats to come to the region. It worked! Thats why people are now so irate that its been taken away from them


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Maybe the idea was to encourage expats to come to the region. It worked! Thats why people are now so irate that its been taken away from them


How utterly irresponsible. Now _*there's *_a cut-and-dried case for serious protest, no ifs and buts, it seems.


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## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

Don't know if any of you are aware. But on another forum, SNIP there is extensive debate about 8 houses near Albox, and now another one near the Prior's in Vera. That have just been issued with demolition orders. 

It is time that all the regions affected by these atrocities got together to fight the bullies in the various Junta's. It is time that the National TV networks of Spain started highlighting the problems of demolition. This type of display of inconsideration is not only ruining the lives of the people concerned but also the housing economy of the southern Spain.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

C'mon jojo, this is important. People are losing their homes. We have, according to the popinjay from the Junta de Andalucía, '11,000 viviendas ilegales' in Almería. What was he doing when they were building them and selling them to the Brits I wonder. That's 11,000 families - many of whom don't even know their homes are at risk!
At least let readers PM me for details.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> C'mon jojo, this is important. People are losing their homes. We have, according to the popinjay from the Junta de Andalucía, '11,000 viviendas ilegales' in Almería. What was he doing when they were building them and selling them to the Brits I wonder. That's 11,000 families - many of whom don't even know their homes are at risk!
> At least let readers PM me for details.


Do you know FOR A FACT that all these homes are owned by Brits?
There is most definitely a need for action for those threatened with demolition whose homes are 100% legal.
But if any inflammatory or inaccurate statements are made then it's easy for officialdom to ignore any protests.
Nothing positive seems to have been achieved as yet in spite of the undoubted efforts that have been devoted to the cause.
I am a bit concerned by your tendency to avoid answering questions or in particular your non- producing of evidence to refute what Tallulah posted in another thread on this topic.
Who is this 'popinjay' - such language does not denote seriousness BTW - ? Did ''they' actually sell houses to Brits or plots of land? Who are 'they'?
And I ask again: do you know that they are all Brits?
I do not doubt your sincerity but no one in authority will listen if any of your 'facts' can be proved wrong.
It is not true that all publicity is good publicity.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> C'mon jojo, this is important. People are losing their homes. We have, according to the popinjay from the Junta de Andalucía, '11,000 viviendas ilegales' in Almería. What was he doing when they were building them and selling them to the Brits I wonder. That's 11,000 families - many of whom don't even know their homes are at risk!
> At least let readers PM me for details.


What??? What have I done???? Forum rules on here dont allow the mention of other forums!!????? 

This is not about brits v spanish and I believe that someone with authority and knowledge should be fighting the housing issue. If "readers" wish to PM you they can. whenever they like or on any subject, but I cant see what that has to do with the housing problems. There are lots of folk on here who seem to understand the housing issues and have been happy to discuss them on the forum without the need to PM ??


Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Here you go
Happy Christmas

Bulldozer threat to Britons' villas: Expats in Spain fight to save their homes | Mail Online


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Here you go
> Happy Christmas
> 
> Bulldozer threat to Britons' villas: Expats in Spain fight to save their homes | Mail Online


Not pleasant is it for anyone concerned! It needs some serious intervention from up high!

Jo xx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> Not pleasant is it for anyone concerned! It needs some serious intervention from up high!
> 
> Jo xx


From what I can make out, "up high" isnt interested

Happy Christmas to the Spanish also!!
Straits News


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## jkchawner (Dec 21, 2008)

Brits told their Spanish villas will be bulldozed in weeks | The Sun |News


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jkchawner said:


> Brits told their Spanish villas will be bulldozed in weeks | The Sun |News


it doesn't just affect Brits, though 

in Chiclana, there are still around 2000 illegal properties which will almost certainly be destroyed, according to el pais in september

you can't tell me they are all owned by Brits


I find this case 10 homes destroyed, 28 arrested  particulary sad

the promotor had built a street of 10 houses on rustic land, then rented them out

so those most affected almost certainly were not at fault

I rent, and it has never occurred to me to ask if the property is legal

maybe I should, according to typically spanish the demolition order was issued in 2007!


you can say that all these illegal proprties should never have been allowed to be built in the first place, & I might well agree with you, but it's bugging me that some people are not telling the whole story. It really doesn't only happen to foreigners.


some people also take chances

I know various people here who have built extensions to their homes - they know they should have applied for planning permission, but decided that it would cost too much & take too long, so went ahead without bothering

maybe they'll be 'lucky' & nothing will happen & they'll get away with it

or maybe one day the bulldozers will come


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> it doesn't just affect Brits, though
> 
> in Chiclana, there are still around 2000 illegal properties which will almost certainly be destroyed, according to el pais in september
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you!

Like you, I know several people who have had a fair amount of work done on their properties that havent applied for permissions - on the understanding that if no one complains or its found out within 3 years then its alright. I also know of a Spanish chap who is under the threat of losing his converted water deposit home. 

I'm convinced that the authorities are doing this demolition thing cos of the general arrogance of a lot of expats who, historically have come over and decided that this "poor country" needs their money and have ridden roughshod over spanish laws and rules cos they want their villa in Spain. This isnt the case with a vast majority now, but it was and I think the authorities are showing that they wont be walked on!

The whole issue needs to be sorted at government level and hopefully with such a vast amount of properties under threat, the governments of all those involved will get together and not only sort this out, but make sure that there are some simple and fair rules put into place for future property builds

Jo xxxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I totally agree with you!
> 
> Like you, I know several people who have had a fair amount of work done on their properties that havent applied for permissions - on the understanding that if no one complains or its found out within 3 years then its alright. I also know of a Spanish chap who is under the threat of losing his converted water deposit home.
> 
> ...


I think you may have a point

it used to be 'take your chance & pay your fine if you're caught'

then some went too far with where thay built


& then some went to the EU to complain

so the Spanish govt has to show that it is doing 'something'


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> it doesn't just affect Brits, though
> 
> in Chiclana, there are still around 2000 illegal properties which will almost certainly be destroyed, according to el pais in september
> 
> ...



My last link above applied to Spanish houses, thats the point I was making


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> I'm convinced that the authorities are doing this demolition thing cos of the general arrogance of a lot of expats who, historically have come over and decided that this "poor country" needs their money and have ridden roughshod over spanish laws and rules cos they want their villa in Spain. This isnt the case with a vast majority now, but it was and I think the authorities are showing that they wont be walked on!


Well if thats the case they have made a massive miscalculation. You, Jo, are one of the people who have come to this country along with all of us. I didnt come here because they need my money, but I am aware that I am contributing towards the countries wealth. Had I been thinking of moving here NOW, frankly I wouldnt bother because of the risk. Therefore the revenue I have put into the country (approximately €300k so far) would have been lost to them. If just 1000 people at this moment, Germans, Dutch, whatever, are thinking the same thing and dont come here because of the destruction then thats a lot of money ...... and I'm guessing the figure is much more than that. Add to that the people who are leaving Spain and those that will leave because they have been made homeless.

You can say that for some it was their fault, you can say that we shouldnt moan, that we shouldnt "upset" the Spanish (who are also effected of course), but you cant argue with the economics and at sometime, someone has to sit back and make a thoughtful decision as to how far they really want to go with this.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Well if thats the case they have made a massive miscalculation. You, Jo, are one of the people who have come to this country along with all of us. I didnt come here because they need my money, but I am aware that I am contributing towards the countries wealth. Had I been thinking of moving here NOW, frankly I wouldnt bother because of the risk. Therefore the revenue I have put into the country (approximately €300k so far) would have been lost to them. If just 1000 people at this moment, Germans, Dutch, whatever, are thinking the same thing and dont come here because of the destruction then thats a lot of money ...... and I'm guessing the figure is much more than that. Add to that the people who are leaving Spain and those that will leave because they have been made homeless.
> 
> You can say that for some it was their fault, you can say that we shouldnt moan, that we shouldnt "upset" the Spanish (who are also effected of course), but you cant argue with the economics and at sometime, someone has to sit back and make a thoughtful decision as to how far they really want to go with this.


I'm not saying its right, nor do I agree with it, its just how it appears to come across when you hear how some of the older Spanish folk feel about guiris/expats. I've heard it said many times that the "guiris" are responsible for the spanish children being unable to afford to buy houses in their own land. Of course its a stupid argument (most arguments are), but put that thought with all the corruption, misinformation and even the history of Franco and the way the older generation of rural spanish live and you can possibly see why this is happening! One thing is for sure tho, its a big mess that needs clearing up from the top down. Another issue is the arrogance of alot of Brits! I've come across several who are unbelievably unpleasant with the way they see their standing within the "Spanish community" - it doesnt help the cause!

Whatever our thoughts, the other thing to bear in mind is that if the Spanish didnt like all this demolition they wouldnt do it!

Jo xxxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Well, there are alternatives (when the Junta de Andalucia agrees to float them). In Chiclana, and yes, some of the houses belong to Spaniards - although what's the difference here, all the houses belong to somebody - the offer is to legalise an illegal situation by paying for urbanisation costs. To be paid, naturally, by the homeowners. Or else.
According to today's El País, the *15,007 *illegal homes in Chiclana (where was the Junta de Andalucia when they were being built?) can be legalised for a modest 75 million euros. The home-owners have, apparently, decided to accept the, um, arrangement.
As for the foreigners taking the Spaniards' homes... the Brits buy either purpose-built homes on urbanisations (built by Spaniards in places where few Spaniards would want to buy or live) or they buy old ruins in the hills (for rather inflated prices) and fix them up (where no Spaniard would bother, but the wages were handy) or they buy 'used' homes from other Brits (which are also available to any Spaniard who would like to buy such a place) or they go to Marbella, perhaps, and compete with a Spaniard on an apartment.
Apparently, there's enough empty apartments in Marbella for all!
In fact, many of the young rural Spaniards are keen to move away and into the City. We aren't much of a threat there.
So, this is not about whether foreigners are better or worse than local people, which is plain ridiculous, but about people losing their homes because 'someone neglected to notice that they were illegal while they were being built, marketed and sold'.
About 60,000 homes across Andalucía.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> From what I can make out, "up high" isnt interested
> 
> Happy Christmas to the Spanish also!!
> Straits News


Hear hear!!
I read the piece in the Daily Mail and believe that partial, inaccurate reporting of that kind makes matters worse for the people affected. To say that the JDA was 'working behind the scenes to block' permissions from the Town Hall is economical avec la verite, to say the least. As in the UK, 'local' permission is not sufficient if you are planning to build on land designated in the Regional Plan as rural. Tallulah's excellent post -which I note no-one has disagreed with -set the facts out clearly. Ciudanos Europeos also points out that Town Hall permission may not be enough in one of its factsheets.
It may be the case that many of the illegal builds may have been sold to Brits by Brits...but we can't say that, can we?? After all, we're all in this together, spirit of the blitz etc cue Vera Lynn
The Mail also slants its reportage to a Spanish versus the Brits angle -never mind that many Spaniards have had their homes demolished. But then, in the immortal words of Mandy Rice-Davies, 'they would, wouldn't they..'
All this is really bound to win friends and influence Spanish people.
I may be naive but I have a firm belief in the power of reason in the conduct of human affairs. *What is most needed are facts so that people who have been defrauded or cheated in any way can get help either to keep their homes or obtain compensation*.
Token gestures and publicity-seeking for its own sake will not help and may well entrench attitudes.
A week or so ago I suggested that Article 8 or 13 of the Human Rights Act - NOT SURE WHICH -might be applicable in these cases, especially that of the Priors.
I was amused to read this suggestion in the Daily Mail..a paper which has consistently rubbished the HRA..


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> .
> So, this is not about whether foreigners are better or worse than local people, which is plain ridiculous, but about people losing their homes because *'someone neglected to notice that they were illegal while they were being built, marketed and sold'.*.



That is the most accurate sentence you have written.And the key issue here is who or what is the 'someone'.
And we don't know, do we....although that doesn't deter people from throwing out blanket accusations....


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

It's in the Telegraph, the Mail and the Sun today - as far as I know.
Remember, though, the British press has a different agenda from us lot. The British press might rubbish Spain, but they do it because they want people to stay in Britain... and enjoy the British press (and their advertisers).
Ufortunately, our local free press will be more concerned with their advertisers as well, so don't expect much support there!
And the spanish media... well, we'll see if they cover any of the Almería story... they haven't so far.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> you cant argue with the economics .


Totally agree and there can be no doubt that immigrants of all nationalities bring wealth here as they do incidentally to many countries in the world.
But the very influx that donated the wealth was paradoxically responsible -vicariously of course - for the construction boom on the Costas and elsewhere and the end result of oversupply leading inevitably in a free market economy to slump and price reductions.
Spain is not an economic basket case in spite of its current difficulties. It needs to get a grip with many factors which are hindering economic growth, not just this one.
France, Italy and many other EU countries have large numbers of UK residents too and although they are not as numerous as Brits in Spain I would venture the suggestion that they are 'wealthier' than many Brits in Spain, especially those whose income relies on UK pensions alone, of which there are many. Would the French and Italian economies collapse without the well-heeled Chiantishire and Dordogne sets? 
We are all venturing opinions here though as none of us has hard facts at his/her fingertips. Only a fool would suggest that small rural communities and some larger conurbations do not benefit hugely from immigrant money.
But then the locals may well feel that they would prefer not to have these foreigners in their midst.
Just like many rural people in the UK object to wealthier incomers from big cities...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> It's in the Telegraph, the Mail and the Sun today - as far as I know.
> Remember, though, the British press has a different agenda from us lot. The British press might rubbish Spain, but they do it because they want people to stay in Britain... and enjoy the British press (and their advertisers).
> Ufortunately, our local free press will be more concerned with their advertisers as well, so don't expect much support there!
> And the spanish media... well, we'll see if they cover any of the Almería story... they haven't so far.



Ah Lenox....who are we to believe????
As for staying in Britain to 'enjoy'the British press....judging from personal observation I would say that the Daily Maul and Sun sell more copies in Marbella than Mayfair. Very difficult if not impossible to get a broadsheet apart from the Telegraph round here.
But you are right about the agenda....they are all right of centre papers.
And the fact that they have a different agenda means that anyone wishing to really help in this situation should be very careful not to make inaccurate or inflammatory statements.


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah Lenox....who are we to believe????
> As for staying in Britain to 'enjoy'the British press....judging from personal observation I would say that the Daily Maul and Sun sell more copies in Marbella than Mayfair. Very difficult if not impossible to get a broadsheet apart from the Telegraph round here.
> But you are right about the agenda....they are all right of centre papers.
> And the fact that they have a different agenda means that anyone wishing to really help in this situation should be very careful not to make inaccurate or inflammatory statements.




Hello everyone....I'm back from the UK...great time with my loved ones.
Now then..........I can't believe we (you) are still discussing this bloody boring topic. It's as if you actually believe you can do anything about it ! All of this wringing of hands and "we Brits" against those "Spaniards" is becoming quite embarassing. Stop it !! Move on. I sympathise with ALL concerned, but, for Christ's sake find something else to talk about. We (you) are powerless to intervene. If you don't agree with me then start a discussion elsewhere. Frankly, this one is becoming quite tedious.
Oh...by the way..Happy New year !!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hombre said:


> Hello everyone....I'm back from the UK...great time with my loved ones.
> Now then..........I can't believe we (you) are still discussing this bloody boring topic. It's as if you actually believe you can do anything about it ! All of this wringing of hands and "we Brits" against those "Spaniards" is becoming quite embarassing. Stop it !! Move on. I sympathise with ALL concerned, but, for Christ's sake find something else to talk about. We (you) are powerless to intervene. If you don't agree with me then start a discussion elsewhere. Frankly, this one is becoming quite tedious.
> Oh...by the way..Happy New year !!



Oh well said!!!!!! Glad you're back! I will be on Friday hopefully, I'm sick to death of the UK now and its crowded roads, streets, shops... its rude and miserable people. I'd moan about the rain here too, but I believe its been non stop in Spain since I left there!!!

Did you have a nice christmas Hombre???

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Oh well said!!!!!! Glad you're back! I will be on Friday hopefully, I'm sick to death of the UK now and its crowded roads, streets, shops... its rude and miserable people. I'd moan about the rain here too, but I believe its been non stop in Spain since I left there!!!
> 
> Did you have a nice christmas Hombre???
> 
> Jo xxx


non-stop rain??:confused2:

I burned my right shoulder sitting in the sun reading this afternoon


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hombre said:


> Hello everyone....I'm back from the UK...great time with my loved ones.
> Now then..........I can't believe we (you) are still discussing this bloody boring topic. It's as if you actually believe you can do anything about it ! All of this wringing of hands and "we Brits" against those "Spaniards" is becoming quite embarassing. Stop it !! Move on. I sympathise with ALL concerned, but, for Christ's sake find something else to talk about. We (you) are powerless to intervene. If you don't agree with me then start a discussion elsewhere. Frankly, this one is becoming quite tedious.
> Oh...by the way..Happy New year !!


Glad you had a good time in the UK..
We've just had a huge pile of firewood delivered.
About to have pesce y patatas fritas for dinner.
It rained for a while this afternoon.


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Oh well said!!!!!! Glad you're back! I will be on Friday hopefully, I'm sick to death of the UK now and its crowded roads, streets, shops... its rude and miserable people. I'd moan about the rain here too, but I believe its been non stop in Spain since I left there!!!
> 
> Did you have a nice christmas Hombre???
> 
> Jo xxx


Thank you Jo...nice to hear you are back soon, I've missed you..
Me too re the UK...bloody awful place to be...loved being with my son and grandchildren and gorgeous daughter-in-law, but Jesus! We turned up for a Christmas Eve meal at a pub..(reserved) to be told " you have 90 minutes and we need the table."
My son replied " we were'nt told that when we booked "...The landlady replied "tough, it's your choice"
My son turned to me and said "welcome to England Dad ". 2 bottles of water and 2 glasses of wine = £9.20...give me a break !
I queried the price and the response was "which cave do you live in?"
Didn't go back there again.
I ordered 2 coffees in one place and told them where we were sitting...." no mate"...he replied..."the idea is, you pay me and I give you the coffees ".
No bins emptied for the past 2 weeks...I had to go to the local council tip with my DIL on Boxing day and the place was crawling with people doing the same. She said "dad...it's much better where you live ".
God ...what a f.....g tip !! the country I mean.
Nice to be home though.........I love it even more now ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hombre said:


> Thank you Jo...nice to hear you are back soon, I've missed you..
> Me too re the UK...bloody awful place to be...loved being with my son and grandchildren and gorgeous daughter-in-law, but Jesus! We turned up for a Christmas Eve meal at a pub..(reserved) to be told " you have 90 minutes and we need the table."
> My son replied " we were'nt told that when we booked "...The landlady replied "tough, it's your choice"
> My son turned to me and said "welcome to England Dad ". 2 bottles of water and 2 glasses of wine = £9.20...give me a break !
> ...


2 bottles of water and 2 glasses of wine = £9.20..


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## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

For those of you that want to read more facts about the 8 houses under threat. Type Arboleas into your search engine. 

I am disappointed that the owners of this forum cannot wave aside their rules on this one occasion re other forums not being mentioned. What possible impact can it have on this one? It is abundantly clear that no one posting here is aware of the full facts if they had been allowed to visit the other forum perhaps some views may be different. 

These 8 house may just be the start of things to come. Not just for Albox, but for many other parts of Spain. Who knows Coin may be next.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> For those of you that want to read more facts about the 8 houses under threat. Type Arboleas into your search engine.
> 
> I am disappointed that the owners of this forum cannot wave aside their rules on this one occasion re other forums not being mentioned. What possible impact can it have on this one? It is abundantly clear that no one posting here is aware of the full facts if they had been allowed to visit the other forum perhaps some views may be different.
> 
> These 8 house may just be the start of things to come. Not just for Albox, but for many other parts of Spain. Who knows Coin may be next.



The rules are across the whole international forum! The forum isnt about joining forces with others to get involved in a fight that does in fact have two sides! In my opinion it wont help and is unecessary!

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

Here's the latest :

AUAN Press release – 30th December 2009
Contact [email protected] 


Please be advised that the AUAN committee has now identified and spoken to all of the homeowners who are subject to the 8 demolition orders. The policia local have served papers on 4 households so far.

Thanks to everyone in the community who helped us to search.

Locations
La Horticheula (2), La Aljambra (2), Las Labores(1), Las Pocicas(1), Rambla de la Higuera (1), Saliente (1) 

Two households belong to AUAN members.

History
• All of the houses are in possession of building licences granted by Albox Town Hall in 2002.
• The building licences were impugned by the Junta de Andalucia in late 2002 due to the perceived risk of an urban nucleus arising in accordance with provincial planning rules.
• The Court in Almeria nullified the licences in 2003.
• In 2006 the Junta de Andalucia requires that the Town Hall takes steps to demolish the homes.
• In 2007 the Almeria Court orders the town hall to comply within 10 days.
o The Town Hall appeals against this order.
o The Junta Argues against this appeal.
• In 2009 the high court in Granada dismisses the Town Halls appeal.

Facts
• None of the homeowners were asked to participate in the proceedings.
• Two of the homes were re-sold during the time period described above.
• The majority do not have the funds to fight this.
• Our advisors tell us that the proceedings are well advanced. This is a very serious situation.
• The notices were served on the 22nd and 23rd of December.


What has been done?
For the past few days we have concentrated on finding the victims and ensuring that they were properly informed and had access to legal advice.

The AUAN lawyer has now commenced a time critical procedure to seek injunctions against these proceedings on the basis of lack of communication to the owners and other factors. He will be assisted in this task by an expert in Spanish human rights law. We are funding this activity.

What’s next?
Members of the AUAN, AULAN and their friends are gathering in an act of solidarity at the former home of Len and Helen Prior on the 9th of January, the second anniversary of their demolition. We will be joined by members of the AUN in Valencia and the newly formed National Federation of Organisations against urban abuse (FAUN).

The AUAN committee tonight voted to organise a protest march in Almeria on Monday the 11th of January. In the words of one committee member “After what we have seen on the faces of those people we have met over the last couple of days how can we not do this”.

Who’s next?
We have today learned that the Junta de Andalucia have served notice of their intention to demolish a house in Vera on the 12th of January.

What can YOU do?
Do not stand silently by as more unfortunate families are broken apart and financially ruined through no fault of their own. The authorities must be made to realise that to continue with these actions is not acceptable, is contrary to the rights of its citizens, attracts hostile publicity and is tantamount to economic suicide in this region.
• Support the March.
• Join us or make a donation. Contact [email protected].
• Make your voice heard!



The propensity for the Junta to economically shoot itself in the foot is quite amazing.
It's all a bit of a worry and I don't think anyone is 100% safe because there's just no logic in it as far as I can see so who knows. 

Apparently the same thing(ish) has even happened to Antonio Banderas and he's in the middle of a battle to save a big extension on his rather nice gaff.
Now there's a point, anyone know his number?......... I bet the Spanish press would sit up a bit if we had him on our side eh


Doggy


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

owdoggy said:


> Apparently the same thing(ish) has even happened to Antonio Banderas and he's in the middle of a battle to save a big extension on his rather nice gaff.
> Now there's a point, anyone know his number?......... I bet the Spanish press would sit up a bit if we had him on our side eh
> 
> 
> Doggy


Now maybe he can carry some weight altho I dont think his situation is the same, not only cos he can afford not to care, but I believe the house in question belonged to his father and due to inheritance rules, it has little to do with him - summat like that!!??????

Jo xxx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I got this today from the mod of another forum. Sad when they are being advised to hide from police. 

You may or may not be aware of the current debate going on about demolition orders on the xxxxxx forum. We are now working with the local action groups to try and gather support for these unfortunate people. Below is an email sent from the AUAN and requested that we mail it to all our members to highlight the issue.


From the AUAN committee - 8 Albox houses facing demolition 

There have been 8 demolition orders for Albox signed by a Judge, they are now official.

The President and Vice President have just come from a meeting with the Albox Mayor. The mayor has said he will ask the officials delivering these orders to give him 24 hours to get a list together for the AUAN to work with.

In the meantime the lawyer for the AUAN has advised that the best course of action is to avoid being served with these notices for as long as possible.
If the police come to your house -


* avoid answering the door if at all possible

* do not sign for anything you do not understand

* tell them you will go to the town hall with your solicitor



This is only a delaying tactic and will not work indefinitely, but it will give the AUAN some time to work with the mayor and their legal representatives to look for a solution.

The AUANs´ legal representatives are looking at two avenues. One is on humanitarian grounds, and the other is on legal grounds.

The time limit to appeal on humanitarian grounds is 10 days from the serving of the notice, the legal appeal time limit is 15 days.

It is vital that the homeowners affected get urgent legal advice or contact the AUAN.

The AUAN is working very hard on this, you do not need to be a member to ask for their help. Please contact them on [email protected], or phone one
of the numbers on the website www.almanzora-au.org.

----------------------------


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I got this today from the mod of another forum. Sad when they are being advised to hide from police. 

You may or may not be aware of the current debate going on about demolition orders on the xxxxxx forum. We are now working with the local action groups to try and gather support for these unfortunate people. Below is an email sent from the AUAN and requested that we mail it to all our members to highlight the issue.


From the AUAN committee - 8 Albox houses facing demolition 

There have been 8 demolition orders for Albox signed by a Judge, they are now official.

The President and Vice President have just come from a meeting with the Albox Mayor. The mayor has said he will ask the officials delivering these orders to give him 24 hours to get a list together for the AUAN to work with.

In the meantime the lawyer for the AUAN has advised that the best course of action is to avoid being served with these notices for as long as possible.
If the police come to your house -


* avoid answering the door if at all possible

* do not sign for anything you do not understand

* tell them you will go to the town hall with your solicitor



This is only a delaying tactic and will not work indefinitely, but it will give the AUAN some time to work with the mayor and their legal representatives to look for a solution.

The AUANs´ legal representatives are looking at two avenues. One is on humanitarian grounds, and the other is on legal grounds.

The time limit to appeal on humanitarian grounds is 10 days from the serving of the notice, the legal appeal time limit is 15 days.

It is vital that the homeowners affected get urgent legal advice or contact the AUAN.

The AUAN is working very hard on this, you do not need to be a member to ask for their help. Please contact them on [email protected], or phone one
of the numbers on the website www.almanzora-au.org.

----------------------------


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> Now maybe he can carry some weight altho I dont think his situation is the same, not only cos he can afford not to care, but I believe the house in question belonged to his father and due to inheritance rules, it has little to do with him - summat like that!!??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Aye, I wouldn't mind being a fiver behind him eh

Still, there's a letter going to the king so Antonio will be in good company




Doggy


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> I got this today from the mod of another forum. Sad when they are being advised to hide from police.


Aye, it's all getting a bit crazy round here.

The worrying thing to me is the "them & us" mentality of some of the Brits. 
They're trying to organise a boycott of local businesses in an attempt to get publicity which IMO is just plain crazy. They're going to alienate the very people they need to get onside.
If I were a local businessman and a load of Brits suddenly descended on my shop with placards and told me it was a boycott to draw attention to the demolitions then asked me for my support .........I'd tell 'em to **** off. 

There's a leaflet idea explaining what's happening and asking for support, which I think is a good one 'cos it makes no distinction between Spanish & expat and it's not just expats this is happening to, but if the boycott thing goes ahead I think we could hazard a fairly good guess at which group of people won't be very sympathetic.

Worrying times



Doggy


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've just found out that a friend of mine is involved in all this!!! EEEEEEKKK!!! She's got three children and altho her whole house isnt illegal, her pool area and casita are in dispute! She's in the UK at the mo and is totally devastated!!

Has this changed my view on this???? well no, altho my views have always been sympathetic, I've just never liked the "mob" battle" type plan, nor do I understand all the "ins and outs", so I'm not qualified to give an opinion! 

Anyway, my friend knew full well when they built their extra bits that it wasnt strictly legal but she was hanging on to something about it being ok if it stayed there for three years ??????? She said that they just thought they'd get away with it cos her husband was Spanish and apparently knew the loopholes and ways around things. She says that was how alot of folk felt who built illegally, they knew, but assumed and in fact were told in a lot of cases that their builds were illegal but the junta would legalise them eventually. In her words "we're all being taught a lesson and used as examples" 

I feel for her and others, especially as her house is in the middle of nowhere and her added bits affect absolutely no one, they cant even be seen - well only from the air, which apparently is how they found out!!???


Jo xxxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

owdoggy said:


> Aye, it's all getting a bit crazy round here.
> 
> The worrying thing to me is the "them & us" mentality of some of the Brits.
> They're trying to organise a boycott of local businesses in an attempt to get publicity which IMO is just plain crazy. They're going to alienate the very people they need to get onside.
> ...


That is exactly how I feel about the actions and why I keep banging on about NOT getting involved in this sort of action!! 

WELL SAID DOGGY!

Jo xxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

The old 'head in sand' manoeuvre.
That'll show 'em!


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## jkchawner (Dec 21, 2008)

and her added bits affect absolutely no one, they cant even be seen - well only from the air, which apparently is how they found out!!???

what i would give to meet a bird with bits like that


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> The old 'head in sand' manoeuvre.
> That'll show 'em!


Could you please tell me what the marches and past actions including publicity in the UK press about donkey-riding tomato growers has achieved?
The only way forward it seems is through the HRA which as I said the Daily Maul has consistently rubbished when it suits them.
I seem to have read in our local paper sometime in the summer that Banderas merely lost part of his garden and that his case is now settled. Well, money talks.
Reading all the info it seems one point is clear: as you said, someone didn't go through the proper procedure which was to wait until the JDA exercised their rightful powers of granting the final decision. 
This elusive 'someone' could have been impatient greedy immigrants, innocent inexperienced immigrants acting in good faith and with no-one disinterested to advise them of the correct procedure (see Tallulah's post), corrupt local offficials, corrupt developers of all nationalities -the list is potentially longer. I repeat: each case needs to be examined on its own merits or lack of.
In a sense Hombre is right - we can do nothing, except through ill-advised actions make the situation worse.
Any decent person can only be horrified at the thought of someone losing the roof over their heads, and these are not wealthy people such as the likes of Banderas.
But sympathy is insufficient if anything is to be achieved for these people of all nationalities and the 'that'll show'em' approach is futile and doomed to failure.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> Aye, it's all getting a bit crazy round here.
> 
> The worrying thing to me is the "them & us" mentality of some of the Brits.
> They're trying to organise a boycott of local businesses in an attempt to get publicity which IMO is just plain crazy. They're going to alienate the very people they need to get onside.
> ...


You are IMO 100% correct in your assessment of this very complicated situation.
What good will affecting the livelihoods of innocent Spanish shopkeepers do?
Have these people left their brains on the plane?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> The old 'head in sand' manoeuvre.
> That'll show 'em!



Please Lenox, please explain to us why we need to "show em" I thought you were joking when you first wrote that! Please explain to me how that works?? Seriously, I dont understand

Jo xxxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

'Suggestions for January 9th'.
The Priors home was demolished on Jan 9th 2008, two years ago. Since then, they have lived in a garage and pissed into a bucket. They are elderly and retired. They had their papers in order from the ayuntamiento, and having not taken a five-year course at the law school in Granada University, were unaware that a retroactive law from the Junta de andalucía could put their house at risk. 
Since then, the case has been reported heavily around the world (still appearing, apparently, on British TV) and the facts of the case are known in Brussels (see Auken Report), London (see Daily Mail, etc), Seville (Junta de Andalucia), but, thanks to the media blackout, not in Madrid.
Now, a mere two years later, the intrepid Junta de Andalucia has struck again: eight homes (belonging to Brits) to be knocked down in Albox and one home (Spanish owned) to be knocked down in Vera (next to the Priors). 
No word on the Hotel Algarrobico, a 22 storey hotel built on the seaside in Carboneras (Prop. PSOE).
Also, no word on the One Million homes and apartments which are currently empty and on offer, held by this country's banks.
So - an economy suffers. The Eastern Almerian people have 30% unemployment and there seems little hope of foreign investment returning to the area.

But - hey - my house is alright. why should I care?

I notice 72 answers to this thread (read, apparently, by about 20 different people), so I am fully aware that I'm not going to conquer China here...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> 'Suggestions for January 9th'.
> The Priors home was demolished on Jan 9th 2008, two years ago. Since then, they have lived in a garage and pissed into a bucket. They are elderly and retired. They had their papers in order from the ayuntamiento, and having not taken a five-year course at the law school in Granada University, were unaware that a retroactive law from the Junta de andalucía could put their house at risk.
> Since then, the case has been reported heavily around the world (still appearing, apparently, on British TV) and the facts of the case are known in Brussels (see Auken Report), London (see Daily Mail, etc), Seville (Junta de Andalucia), but, thanks to the media blackout, not in Madrid.
> Now, a mere two years later, the intrepid Junta de Andalucia has struck again: eight homes (belonging to Brits) to be knocked down in Albox and one home (Spanish owned) to be knocked down in Vera (next to the Priors).
> ...


"YOU" Conquer China?? Is this thread about you then???? Please would you answer my previous post about "showing em"????

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

To give credit where it's due, the same people who were in favour of the boycott have come up with another idea that I think is a damn good one.

We have a cultural exchange day, a mixed fiesta if you like where the expats and local Spanish all do their particular thing with regards to food, drink & music (morris dancing was even mentioned but......... er ......... dunno 'bout that) but everybody knows that the whole thing is about us all getting together so we have a voice loud enough that the media & the powers that be can't ignore us.

Food, drink & music ........ now yer talking!:clap2:




Doggy


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

owdoggy said:


> To give credit where it's due, the same people who were in favour of the boycott have come up with another idea that I think is a damn good one.
> 
> We have a cultural exchange day, a mixed fiesta if you like where the expats and local Spanish all do their particular thing with regards to food, drink & music (morris dancing was even mentioned but......... er ......... dunno 'bout that) but everybody knows that the whole thing is about us all getting together so we have a voice loud enough that the media & the powers that be can't ignore us.
> 
> ...


A bit of mixed culture and history incorporating every nationality living in the area sounds good and could be a bit of a laugh, but I think Antonio Banderos with his "clout"?? and working towards getting these rules changed and clarified is the way forward to actually protect and help those who are in trouble right now and those who could be in the future. 

My friend is resigned to losing her pool and casita, she's arranging to have them demolished herself as she wants control over how its done!? Such a shame tho



Jo xxx


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## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

There is one major point that you are all missing. These people have been in their houses since 2002. They have not received one letter from the Junta telling them that they are living in an illegal build. That is not until the 22nd December. 
As to the boycott, it has been made abundantly clear, from what I have read, that there is absolutly no intention of winding up the local shop owners. The idea was to boycott for one day. As most people would buy the goods the day before the shops would not lose money. It would simply show the businesses that the expat community brings a great deal of money to the region. 

By the way, those of you that are in rented accomodation are not necessarily safe either. Look what has happened to renters in Chiclana where 10 properties were rented out and are now demolished.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rioblanca said:


> There is one major point that you are all missing. These people have been in their houses since 2002. They have not received one letter from the Junta telling them that they are living in an illegal build. That is not until the 22nd December.
> As to the boycott, it has been made abundantly clear, from what I have read, that there is absolutly no intention of winding up the local shop owners. The idea was to boycott for one day. As most people would buy the goods the day before the shops would not lose money. It would simply show the businesses that the expat community brings a great deal of money to the region.
> 
> By the way, those of you that are in rented accomodation are not necessarily safe either. Look what has happened to renters in Chiclana where 10 properties were rented out and are now demolished.


And the tenants were Spanish who also presumably lost all their worldly goods.
As for the boycott - if people stocked up the day before how exactly would shopowners be made aware of any impact from loss of British custom?
There is also the point that some LOCAL people may prefer to do without both newcomers and their money as has been the case in places in the UK.
Not a very friendly view but I suspect that more share it than we would care to admit.
We are not universally loved.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> "YOU" Conquer China?? Is this thread about you then???? Please would you answer my previous post about "showing em"????
> 
> Jo xxx


Your suspicions may be well-founded. A lot of ego, methinks.
Amd don't expect answers to questions from Lenox. I have asked so many to no avail. He merely evades answeing and presents us with more 'facts' and tells us that The Daily Mail etc.is reporting the situation. I'm sure the UK will grind to a halt in protest. I read through the posts subsequent to the Mail piece and it was interesting to read the varied responses. There were an awful lot of people from Essex and Yorkshire who knew all about how things were done in Spain. There were also some rather nasty unsympathetic posts from Brits in the UK but also some informative ones including a post from a British estate agent in Alicante. If you're interested, you can still read them.
If I were about to have my home demolished I would be looking for help to sources of support other than Lenox and the Daily Mail. Are there really no people of professional standing or substance, whether Spanish, British or Mongolian, who can speak for these people?
Hopefully some way will be found of stopping the demolitions so that the circumstances of each case can be examined.
Even Lenox supported elements of what I proposed when I started this thread although he had of course thought of them first.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> There is one major point that you are all missing. These people have been in their houses since 2002. They have not received one letter from the Junta telling them that they are living in an illegal build. That is not until the 22nd December.
> As to the boycott, it has been made abundantly clear, from what I have read, that there is absolutly no intention of winding up the local shop owners. The idea was to boycott for one day. As most people would buy the goods the day before the shops would not lose money. It would simply show the businesses that the expat community brings a great deal of money to the region.
> 
> By the way, those of you that are in rented accomodation are not necessarily safe either. Look what has happened to renters in Chiclana where 10 properties were rented out and are now demolished.



Renting an illegal property is really common around here, I viewed several and the agents told me that these places were probably illegal. Yes, if they're down for demolition and you live in one then you'll have to move on, but at least you havent ploughed you life savings into them with no escape, nor would you be responsible for the demolition costs

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

One thing that seems to be coming to light is that an awful lot of these people were aware that they were building illegally, but were told that hopefully legality to would be acquired in the fullness of time. I dont think anyone thought that this demolition business would be carried out. 

That said, the Spanish are indeed "cutting off their noses to spite their faces" and its a cruel and heartless thing to do, maybe they should simply not allow these properties to be sold on, so that when they eventually become empty, they can then be knocked down if thats what they feel should happen?? In hindsight they really should have made more of a noise about these buildings when they were being constructed and done their objecting and stopping then rather than waiting 8 years!

Jo xxx


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## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

jojo said:


> One thing that seems to be coming to light is that an awful lot of these people were aware that they were building illegally, but were told that hopefully legality to would be acquired in the fullness of time. I dont think anyone thought that this demolition business would be carried out.
> Jo xxx



Where did you get this information from? I have been following this story all over the place and have not yet seen anything that states the owners were aware of the demolition order or the fact that the Junta revoked the building license a year after they were finished.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rioblanca said:


> Where did you get this information from? I have been following this story all over the place and have not yet seen anything that states the owners were aware of the demolition order or the fact that the Junta revoked the building license a year after they were finished.


An estate agent friend, certainly with people who were reforming or extending properties. I'm not saying its the case with all of them, but apparently licences werent issued at all, there was simply the assumption/hope that they wouldnt be caught or bothered about and further down the line they would be given!! we've been talking a lot about it all today cos of my other friend who's about to lose her pool and casita - altho she hasnt been issued with an official order, she's pre-empting it and arranging her own demolition!!???? She and her kids are gutted, in fact she's even talking about returning to the UK to live, luckily they're wealthy enough to have a house in the UK to go to.... so how all those other poor people who are about to lose everything must be feeling...!!??!!

There is certainly more involved than just the junta coming along and ordering demolitions out of the blue ....... apparently! I'll find out more when I get home tomorrow. 

Jo xx


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## rioblanca (Dec 7, 2009)

My contact down there has actually seen the building licenses issued to 4 of the people involved. And she assured me that the others also had theirs. All stamped up. The demolition order is for the whole villa not just a swimming pool. 

So perhaps your friend is yet another one suffering. But she IS like many others all over Southern Spain that flouted regulations and had a pool built without license. It is common knowledge that you MUST have a license for a pool or risk it being filled in. Heck, a license is only a few euros and usually granted. Added to the cost of the pool what price saving a hundred euros or so now?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rioblanca said:


> My contact down there has actually seen the building licenses issued to 4 of the people involved. And she assured me that the others also had theirs. All stamped up. The demolition order is for the whole villa not just a swimming pool.
> 
> So perhaps your friend is yet another one suffering. But she IS like many others all over Southern Spain that flouted regulations and had a pool built without license. It is common knowledge that you MUST have a license for a pool or risk it being filled in. Heck, a license is only a few euros and usually granted. Added to the cost of the pool what price saving a hundred euros or so now?


Were the licences all stamped by the Junta, do you know? As more information from more or less reliable sources trickles out it seems that there were many cases where all relevant papers had actually been obtained - including permission from the JDA -and yet for some reason demolition orders have been served, in many cases after a considerable and inexplicable time lapse.
In other cases for various reasons this may not have been so. That's why I feel it's so important to look at individual cases and not carry on with this futile and possibly counterproductive 'that'll show'em' attitude.
Show 'who' 'what'?
As for your last point: I have a Spanish friend who owns an estate agency specialising in selling and renting to immigrants of all nationalities but mainly British. He also owns and develops properties. He told me that it is common practice to apply for permission to do less than you actually intend, i.e. say you are going to build on x square metres when you really intend to build on y square metres.
Well, if you did that in the UK you would never get away with it. We had a cottage in a conservation area and down a secluded lane stood another cottage whose owner replaced rotten wooden windows with UPV frames. How the Building Inspector found out was a mystery as hardly anyone but the occupants passed the cottage but she was ordered to replace the UPV frames with wooden ones at considerable expense.
Spain is a larger less densely populated country than the UK but at last it seems the authorities are attempting to bring some order and regularity into permissions to build or extend existing dwellings.
I think we'd all agree that is a laudable aim - atrocities have been perpetuated along the coasts and no doubt inland too. But not all the casualties of this attempt will stand on the same footing and should not get the same treatment.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

'They had their papers in order from the ayuntamiento, and having not taken a five-year course at the law school in Granada University, were unaware that a retroactive law from the Junta de andalucía could put their house at risk.' QUOTE FROM LENOX'...

Wrong. They did not have all their papers in order. Read the judgment. There was no 'retroactive law' from the JDA. The JDA has ultimate power over building on rural land and draws up regional plans with land zoned for various purposes just as in the UK where vit is the County Council's responsibility..
As for the comment about the five year law degree... you don't need a law degree to purchase property, just common sense and good professional advice. Have all the people who have successfully built and bought property in Spain got law degrees, then? You pay lawyers and others involved in the building process to obtain the necessary permissions because ignorance of the law is no defence *anywhere*. Using this argument is effectively shooting yourself in the foot..
Once again you are obfuscating the situation. Have you read the judgment which PW gave the link to? Have you read Tallulah's informative post?
Something went wrong in the Priors case and the Court, in granting them leave to appeal, has recognised this.
Until you recognise that facts cannot be ignored or lightly skated over you are potentially doing more harm than good.
I noticed that all the normally warring Spanish political parties were united in their dismissal of the Auker report which they condemned as partial and inaccurate.
This is a normal reaction -just as it's normal to sympathise with people who are about to lose their homes.
But in neither case is it an adequate response.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

There will be a demonstration in Almeria City on Monday 11th January, organised by the AUAN and the good people of Albox. it will no doubt be peaceful, well behaved and respectful - and the spectacle of elderly retired Brits and their Spanish neighbours marching down the High Street in their carpet slippers and walking canes will no doubt cause an impression. 

Pity about the Morris dancers.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> There will be a demonstration in Almeria City on Monday 11th January, organised by the AUAN and the good people of Albox. it will no doubt be peaceful, well behaved and respectful - and the spectacle of elderly retired Brits and their Spanish neighbours marching down the High Street in their carpet slippers and walking canes will no doubt cause an impression.
> 
> Pity about the Morris dancers.


I'm still waiting for you to answer my previous posts hun!!???

Jo xx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Hi jojo - quite out of line. Sorry.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> There will be a demonstration in Almeria City on Monday 11th January, organised by the AUAN and the good people of Albox. it will no doubt be peaceful, well behaved and respectful - and the spectacle of elderly retired Brits and their Spanish neighbours marching down the High Street in their carpet slippers and walking canes will no doubt cause an impression.
> 
> Pity about the Morris dancers.


I'm sure the JDA will have a helicopter waiting ready to flee into exile.

Seriously, though, good luck to them, hope the weather is good.
I've a good mind to turn up with a megaphone to yell:'Lenox: answer my questions!!!!!!'


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> Hi jojo - quite out of line. Sorry.





And unlike Lenox, when I post I'm sober!!!
Some people just aren't programmed to answer questions, Jo.
We can only draw our own conclusions......


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> Hi jojo - quite out of line. Sorry.


Out of what line Lenox??? You're not making a whole lot of sense to me LOL. I just would like to know the answer to my post 72 



jojo said:


> Please Lenox, please explain to us why we need to "show em" I thought you were joking when you first wrote that! Please explain to me how that works?? Seriously, I dont understand


Explain on the forum how you and your friends hope to rectify the plight of these folk who have and who may lose their homes - please. Be like a politian would be and win us over and get us to believe you can help them



Jo xxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

By publicising the blatant injustice of demolishing homes bought and inhabited by Northern Europeans in good faith who, in their (your) hundreds of thousands bring in untold wealth to Spain - merely in exchange for a bit of sun and a glass of vino - and create a lot of employment.
Rather obviously.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> By publicising the blatant injustice of demolishing homes bought and inhabited by Northern Europeans in good faith who, in their (your) hundreds of thousands bring in untold wealth to Spain - merely in exchange for a bit of sun and a glass of vino - and create a lot of employment.
> Rather obviously.



I guess its that attitude of "we made Spain wealthy" so in effect they owe us. Thats the issue here and the part that I personally dont like, nothing to do with retirees or expats building homes here. An awful lot of Brit expats came to Spain because it was cheaper and warmer than the UK and not thru a desire to help the Spanish economy - more to help their own. There have been a lot who have arrogantly and with that attitude built their homes here, alot of them knew their properties may not be legal but felt "we're bringing them our wealth" so they wouldnt dare to do anything to upset "their saviours" The fact that a lot of expats are leaving or have left Spain recently is nothing to do with the land grab issue, its because its no longer cheap - what with rising costs and of course the exchange rate. 

The situation isnt that simple in truth tho is it. If I may say its an arrogant viewpoint. Spain has joined the EU and made alot of money that way. Northern europeans are not the only reason that Spain has become more wealthy than it once was. Tourism was the start, Spain has built up various industries and done it without the help of the Expat brits. I know its not in good shape financially at the mo - niether is the UK, but its Spain and I think its misguided and silly to believe that British Expats are the only reason why it no longer uses donkeys for transport and sells tomatoes.

But we're digressing. How can the people who are about to lose their homes be helped? and how can this kind of thing be prevented in the future - thats what is important! I'm convinced that if the Spanish government did some kindo of deal with these houseowners, whereby they could stay in their homes, but couldnt sell them on it would help - once the owners had gone, then the Spanish government could do what they like with them! A new governmental body should be implimented to oversee new builds and old illegal builds and of course introduce some rules and regulations that cannot be misenterpreted or corrupted

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> By publicising the blatant injustice of demolishing homes bought and inhabited by Northern Europeans in good faith who, in their (your) hundreds of thousands bring in untold wealth to Spain - merely in exchange for a bit of sun and a glass of vino - and create a lot of employment.
> Rather obviously.


Oh...I see. Only 'Northern Europeans' deserve to keep their homes. The 'donkey-riding tomato growers' can go hang.
Yes, immigrants bring wealth to Spain. But don't imagine that the collective purchasing power of people who often buy from foreign developers, patronise British-owned businesses and eke out an existence on UK pension income which depends on the falling value of sterling will prop up the twelfth largest economy in Europe.
As for publicity.....there's good and bad publicity, even self-publicity. It can rebound on you and your cause.
Maybe that's why not one single house has so far been saved from demolition.
Lawyers should be serving papers demanding an immediate stop to the proposed demolitions under the relevant Articles of the HRA.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> .
> 
> But we're digressing. How can the people who are about to lose their homes be helped? and how can this kind of thing be prevented in the future - thats what is important! I'm convinced that if the Spanish government did some kindo of deal with these houseowners, whereby they could stay in their homes, but couldnt sell them on it would help - once the owners had gone, then the Spanish government could do what they like with them! A new governmental body should be implimented to oversee new builds and old illegal builds and of course introduce some rules and regulations that cannot be misenterpreted or corrupted
> 
> Jo xxx


The problem doesn't seem to be with current planning laws but the way in which decisions which rightfully are ultimately made by the Regional Planning Authority have not been communicated swiftly to owners/developers.
That's one reason why the Priors have been given leave to appeal.
As someone pointed out, an application which was granted by the local Town Hall in 2002 was swiftly turned down by the JDA on the grounds that it constituted an 'urban nucleus' in a protected rural area.
Why on earth did it take over seven years for that decision to come into effect?
And also....some of these homes were allegedly resold during that period. Were the purchasers aware that permission to build these houses had been refused seven years earlier?
It's not the laws that are at fault but their implementation.
So...another idea (to be ignored, no doubt0
If this sort of thing had happened on such a scale in the UK a Commission of Enquiry would have been set up by the Government with a brief to look into the circumstances surrounding each case.
Perhaps these organisations involved in the protest should consider that suggestion?


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Mypeg - I've passed on your ideas to the associations' lawyer.
He has in fact prepared a 'decalogue' which the Izquierda Unida (of all people) has agreed to support. The ten points include a government supported agency to advise, inform, support and defend foreign settlers in Spain. 
The demonstration, meanwhile (Monday 11th January, Almería City), now has support ready from outside the province, including buses coming from the Axarchía and Valencia. Local Spanish supporters, including your mates the tomato growers, will no doubt be setting out this morning for Almería on their donkeys.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> Mypeg - I've passed on your ideas to the associations' lawyer.
> He has in fact prepared a 'decalogue' which the Izquierda Unida (of all people) has agreed to support. The ten points include a government supported agency to advise, inform, support and defend foreign settlers in Spain.
> The demonstration, meanwhile (Monday 11th January, Almería City), now has support ready from outside the province, including buses coming from the Axarchía and Valencia. Local Spanish supporters, including your mates the tomato growers, will no doubt be setting out this morning for Almería on their donkeys.


I think the tomato growing donkey riders were actually your mates, Lenox. I could post your Telegraph comments here if you like so people are aware of what is behind our little 'in joke'. 
But thankyou for passing my suggestions on to the lawyer. Let's hope that something positive will come from all this activity.
Marches and other forms of direct activity can be a great morale booster and show solidarity but sadly -and I mean sadly -in all my years of political activity I cannot honestly recall anything of that kind which had a positive influence on decision -making. Would that it had....
I still think that some kind of investigation is needed in order to identify and punish culprits and idemnify those who have been cheated and every march needs a focus....
?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Interestingly, I was talking to my husband about all this yesterday, he listened and when I mentioned "Albox" he suddenly said, and I quote:

"Albox??? Well thats known for being full of illegal builds, I glanced at it before we moved to Spain cos the properties we so cheap, it didnt take much to see why - all illegal and all the residence seemed to be trying to get out quick before their properties were knocked down. The British agents I spoke to all told me that these places were legal, yeah right !"

My OH then proceeded to explain why he could tell they were illegal and later I met my Estate agent friends, again, they knew these places were illegal, apparently permmissions were granted, but quickly revoked but that didnt stop the developers or owners going ahead anyway. The¡y didnt think anyone would do anything. It seems the only problem is that its taken the junta so long to actually knock them down - it should have been done before the properties were finished. Also there's something about permission being granted for storehouses only to be built and people "embleshing" their storehouses to turn them into grand, luxury villas.



Jo xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

It's a common occurance here in Spain (and no doubt elsewhere) the old mentality of "if no-one reports/says anything, then we'll get away with it" and this has been going on for years. When we looked at the plan for our area, there were lots of properties no doubt built many, many years ago (a couple of hundred or so in some cases!) that were no legally registered within Catastro...not to say that they don't have the original escritura/deeds, but they were certainly not registered at a later date within the authority...and the same can be said for old caminos (access roads) which although figure on the plans, have been "adopted" within properties/lands. Just talking to my mum-in-law, she can certainly remember within the rural areas where these old roads existed to access land which was used agriculturally in the past. That brings up many headaches in the future regarding inheritance - and that's if one can track down the various members of the family entitled to these properties. Now, with a lot of these old places, they are right on the line of the road - for example, when we were building ours, the top of our land fronting the road had to be built four metres back - that is the entrance wall - ready for if the diputacion in La Coruna wished to expand the road at a future date....not only did we have to hand it over to them for any future expansion, but pay for the priviledge of handing it over and registering it for them. Chatting with OH's cousin (an architect here) unfortunately (or fortunately!) there are regional planning laws that need to be adhered to of course, within any autonomous community - however, local ayuntamientos have their own, shall we say, "interpretation" of these laws - but ignorance of the law at the end of the day as Mary so rightly said, is no defence. And please don't think just cos the current mayor says it's OK and legalities will be dealt with at a future date that you won't have a problem. There are steps to make sure that if you are going to build or buy, one can check these things. I don't think it should put off any would-be immigrants/expats  in the future. One thing I would say which is incredibly obvious of course - if you wouldn't have bought/built/done that in the UK, why on earth would you do it here without crossing the t's and dotting the i's.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tally, your post on this topic on a previous thread was THE authoritative one, IMO.I'm sure Jo, PW and others won't mind me saying that. The post above has the same ring of one who knows whereof she speaks.
The more I learn about this topic the more I see a seeminglycomplicated issue reduced to something much simpler.
Some of the people involved in the threatened demolitions will be totally 'innocent ' victims but others may not.
A good reason for not being 100% behind the current campaign.
Incidentally, there has been much talk of the impact of immigrant money in Spain. I've said that this may be a factor in some areas but I doubt it is in the overall Spanish economy.
It would seem that many immigrants here are struggling to get by as their incomes have been severely reduced by the weak £. Others have created a separate British economy. I wonder how typical our own case is: two people spending roughly 40 000 euros a year in Spain. Over half of this goes in our currently exorbitantly high rent.....straight to an Austrian bank account. Every other month we go to do a monster shop in £s in Gibraltar, chiefly because we can get a variety of vegetarian foods there which are unobtainable in our local shops. Whilst there we fill up the LR -who wouldn't with diesel at 0.68p a litre?? -and buy cheap alcohol and tobacco at the airport shop. Of course we pay Endesa, Telefonica and Aguagest and spend a fair amount in local shops and restaurants but I would estimate that only about a third of the total spend goes into the local economy. We don't pay tax here as we own nothing here and our incomes are all subject to Double Taxation Agreements and therefore subject to UK tax. I have a Spanish bank account which has just enough to cover monthly expenses as my money is with a UK offshore bank. OH has a Spanish account but keeps main investments in the UK. We diodn't set out to create this situation, it's how it is.
If Spain had to rely on people like us it would be bankrupt.
There is a lot of assertion on the demolition topic which is unsupported by fact. Posts like yours Tally are extremely important in helping interested people see the truth about the situation.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> By publicising the blatant injustice of demolishing homes bought and inhabited by Northern Europeans in good faith who, in their (your) hundreds of thousands bring in *untold wealth to Spain *- merely in exchange for a bit of sun and a glass of vino - and *create a lot of employment.*
> Rather obviously.


Prove it. IMO that is a nonsensical statement. As a former 'newsman' I'm sure you keep abreast of the UK quality press as well as The Maul and will have read Peter Osborne's piece in The Observer about the euro and Spain's problems. You will have read that some economists are of the opinion that in creating a European Florida, Spain encouraged a construction bubble which quickly burst when pricked by the recession and the slide in the £ thus exacerbating an already parlous situation and creating massive unemployment. . I don't always agree with Peter O. but I have suggested the same thing several posts ago.
There are 1.6 million unsold homes in Spain so do you really see construction playing an important role in the near future?
You seem to forget that Spain is far from being a banana republic and is in fact ranked only four places behind the UK in most authoritative listings.
The combined wealth of the many pensioners and many others resident in Spain might just about cover the total annual salary and bonuses bill of a UK financial institution or bank. You may be a billionaire, I'm certainly not.
But neither you or I know the facts. The difference between us is that I at least try to ascertain them.
Yet again you focus on 'Northern Europeans'.
Pity the poor Canadians, Poles etc. involved in this.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

Perhaps they should demolish a few of 'the 1.6 million unsold homes' in Spain before starting on the ones which _were_ sold.
There will still be people, elderly people, out on the street when these homes are demolished. that's where the focus has to be. Perhaps we could offer them ten or twenty of those above-mentioned 1.6 million empty homes


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> Perhaps they should demolish a few of 'the 1.6 million unsold homes' in Spain before starting on the ones which _were_ sold.
> There will still be people, elderly people, out on the street when these homes are demolished. that's where the focus has to be. Perhaps we could offer them ten or twenty of those above-mentioned 1.6 million empty homes


Thats a good idea!!

My friend, who is an estate agent says that the best thing would be for the Spanish government to buy back these "about to be" demolished homes from their owners at the price they paid for them! Which seems the sensible and fair thing to do, then the government can do what the like with them and the owners get their money back - a win win situation dont you think and no one can complain!!! ????????

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> Perhaps they should demolish a few of 'the 1.6 million unsold homes' in Spain before starting on the ones which _were_ sold.
> There will still be people, elderly people, out on the street when these homes are demolished. that's where the focus has to be. Perhaps we could offer them ten or twenty of those above-mentioned 1.6 million empty homes


But you are speaking of homes which may be owned by North Europeans!! Those who for example want to sell as their 'untold wealth' has run out.
And these are all legally built homes. So your suggestion is not practical.
Yes, it's sad about these elderly people. As I posted earlier, I have been involved with Housing Associations in the UK and have worked to help people who had been evicted for one reason or another. It's terrible to see the misery at first hand. Whether or not these people in Almeria built or bought their homes without ascertaining that they had the right permissions, it's awful to think of them being homeless and it seems many of them do not have 'untold wealth'. 
If it is true that they bought eight or more years ago when the £ was strong against the euro and people with modest means could acquire the home of their dreams comparatively cheaply because they didn't go through the correct procedures....then it's still sad.
But read Tallulah's post....her last sentence is particularly apposite.
Incidentally, I've just remembered that all but one of the houses we inspected before we decided on this Austrian-owned one were owned by foreigners -Brits, Germans, Dutch. Rent to be paid to their home accounts. We decided we had had enough of being property owners and landlords so didn't want to buy but if we had we would most probably used a British agent and our own British lawyer who has branches in Spain.
The properties near us owned by my son and daughter-in-law were bought from an Anglo-Spanish Estate Agent and constructed, one by a Canadian firm and one by a British company.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Thats a good idea!!
> 
> My friend, who is an estate agent says that the best thing would be for the Spanish government to buy back these "about to be" demolished homes from their owners at the price they paid for them! Which seems the sensible and fair thing to do, then the government can do what the like with them and the owners get their money back - a win win situation dont you think and no one can complain!!! ????????
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry to disagree with you Jo but that's a no-go suggestion because it has nothing to do with the Government. The whole situation revolves around whether or not people knowingly went ahead with their build or purchase without having the permission from the JDA to build in these protected areas.
It seems that many did and have been aware of the illegality for years. They hoped nothing would happen.
Tallulah has explained that very well.
Imagine that people had built incongruous 'urban' conglomerations in the National Parks in the UK....we'd want them demolished to preserve these areas of natural beauty.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

I hate to play the devil's advocate here, but as topics such as government buy-backs, etc, have raised their head, I will mention that which has yet not been covered - and that is the effect of the "let's just do it" approach, which as I have mentioned, it is widely known occurs where people go ahead and build/expand regardless of the possible future issues. 

1000m2 of non-buildable (is that a word??!) rural land has a certain value. This, as we all know, has nothing to do with the value of urban land on which a property can be legally built under normal circumstances (by normal I mean, that for example, fomento doesn't know something you don't and won't let you build your house even though the land is decreed as "urban"). 

With the above in mind, the rural plot, with a value of (for the sake of argument) 20,000 euros vs. an urban plot with a value of say, 80-100,000 euros, plus the house built upon it which shouldn't have been built in the first instance - what is it the government is supposed to buy back? The rural plot? Clearly that would not be acceptable. We are now asking for proof beyond reasonable doubt that the owners were "legally" mislead. That is to say, all the legal papers from all the relevant legal authorities were lying to them. Then I accept the government should recompense. As in most cases, half the steps are missing, let alone all the steps for all the papers. This would be practically impossible to achieve. What is left legally and logically, is for the owners to sue those that wronged them to the value of the recuperation of their patrimonio (assets). As this was the ruling in the Prior's case in the Supreme Court, I would have thought justice would have been served. That is not, of course, to belittle their heartrending plight - but lets not open the door to yet more obvious scams by suggesting that if you find a rural plot at a bargain price, all you need do is build a villa on it and when it's knocked down, the government would compensate you for it. Clearly this would be an open invitation to all frustrated rural plot owners in Spain.

We have a neighbour who would love that - with about 6000m2 - which he can't do anything with apart from plant crops and it's right by a road. He can't figure it out - but it's been designated as rural. He would love for the above to apply, I'm sure.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tallulah said:


> I hate to play the devil's advocate here, but as topics such as government buy-backs, etc, have raised their head, I will mention that which has yet not been covered - and that is the effect of the "let's just do it" approach, which as I have mentioned, it is widely known occurs where people go ahead and build/expand regardless of the possible future issues.
> 
> 1000m2 of non-buildable (is that a word??!) rural land has a certain value. This, as we all know, has nothing to do with the value of urban land on which a property can be legally built under normal circumstances (by normal I mean, that for example, fomento doesn't know something you don't and won't let you build your house even though the land is decreed as "urban").
> 
> ...


Hhhmm, and lets not forget those big carrier bags of "money" that were _NOT_ given as payment for alot of these properties to "whoever" I'm not sure what records would be kept of those!!????

Jo xxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

In the end - as 'Suggestion for January 9th', many neighbours will gather at the remains of the Prior's home in Vera for a candle-lit vigil. Mr Prior may not be there as he was hospitalised yesterday.
Two days later, Monday, we have the demonstration in Almeria City regarding the eight homes warned of impending demolition in Albox (it was the first notice the homeowners had, although it appears the ayuntamiento has known at least since September), and the following day, Tuesday, another house is due to be demolished - once again in Vera. 
There is now some coverage in the Spanish media, so things are moving forward in that direction.
The mayor of Albox has agreed to answer any and all questions on another forum (the Arboleas Forum). Despite being PSOE, he insists he won't allow the demolitions to go through!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> .
> The mayor of Albox has agreed to answer any and all questions on another forum (the Arboleas Forum). Despite being PSOE, he insists he won't allow the demolitions to go through!


Could you tell us how he can defy the JDA and court orders?
Could you please respond to Tallulah's posts, especially this:


*We are now asking for proof beyond reasonable doubt that the owners were "legally" mislead. That is to say, all the legal papers from all the relevant legal authorities were lying to them. Then I accept the government should recompense. As in most cases, half the steps are missing, let alone all the steps for all the papers. This would be practically impossible to achieve. What is left legally and logically, is for the owners to sue those that wronged them to the value of the recuperation of their patrimonio (assets). As this was the ruling in the Prior's case in the Supreme Court, I would have thought justice would have been served. That is not, of course, to belittle their heartrending plight - but lets not open the door to yet more obvious scams by suggesting that if you find a rural plot at a bargain price, all you need do is build a villa on it and when it's knocked down, the government would compensate you for it. Clearly this would be an open invitation to all frustrated rural plot owners in Spain.
pecially this salient fact*? TALLULAH


If she is right, your course of blanket support for all these people who are threatened could be counterproductive.
One final question: do you know* beyond any doubt *that the Priors were given permission to build a *house?*
If so, what is your proof?


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

You should probably ask the Mayor of Albox (on the other forum). I'll give you the link if you pm me.

If I might generalise for a moment. Spain is not the same as the UK. I lie all day on the beach in Spain and get a sunburn. In England, someone lies all day on the beach and doesn't. Does this mean that I shouldn't have got my sunburn in Spain?
There is a philosophy here (being, essentially a moorish/catholic tradition) to cut corners which, generally, doesn't matter much. Live and let live etc. However, when somebody in power is looking for a handle on you, he can generally find something. This is why Spaniards are so unconcerned about embargos, denuncias, court appearances, appearing on the RAI (government debtors list) and other dramas.

I thought of a 'lema' for our demo on Monday which I thought you might like.
'Mi Casa es Su Casa'


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont believe you know what you're talking about Lenox, because you always avoid answering very important questions. 

This is about people losing their homes because they've been deemed illegal and we're trying to work out who is to blame, so that those folk can sue for compensation if indeed they were unaware that they were illegal.

It seems that you are not particularly interested in the rights and wrongs, just the glory of the battle.

Jo xxx


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

The system is to blame, Jojo. The system.
First, these people bought in good faith. The licences were extended by the town hall to the building companies or promoters (who all have 3,000 euro SL companies and who no longer exist). The houses were approved locally as they helped bring in jobs, wealth and town hall income (building taxes). These small towns are moribund. They have little or no industry, agriculture or tourism. They are small forgotten dorps with the youth moving away to find life in the cities. The mayor's job (and no doubt keen interest) is to reverse this situation.
The Junta de Andalucía has final authority. They chose to make some 11,000 homes (their figure) in the Eastern part of Almería illegal. Almost all those homes are in urbanisations on land which - in truth - is green-belt (following the ley de ordenación territorial - the Junta's attempt to organise the province's various charms).
So fine. The buyers were not told about the situation, rather obviously, by the sellers, many of whom have fled or, because of the downturn, have merely gone quiet.
However - the Junta, anxious to remedy this terrible terrible problem of people living in the desert boondocks of Almería without their say-so, have at all times neglected to talk of compenstion, justice or common sense. 
You may think that the Junta is the very pinnacle of Law, Honour and Solidarity, but in Almería, they wouldn't agree.

So, no one knows who to sue for compensation, because there isn't any. Ask the Priors!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lenox said:


> The system is to blame, Jojo. The system.
> First, these people bought in good faith. The licences were extended by the town hall to the building companies or promoters (who all have 3,000 euro SL companies and who no longer exist). The houses were approved locally as they helped bring in jobs, wealth and town hall income (building taxes). These small towns are moribund. They have little or no industry, agriculture or tourism. They are small forgotten dorps with the youth moving away to find life in the cities. The mayor's job (and no doubt keen interest) is to reverse this situation.
> The Junta de Andalucía has final authority. They chose to make some 11,000 homes (their figure) in the Eastern part of Almería illegal. Almost all those homes are in urbanisations on land which - in truth - is green-belt (following the ley de ordenación territorial - the Junta's attempt to organise the province's various charms).
> So fine. The buyers were not told about the situation, rather obviously, by the sellers, many of whom have fled or, because of the downturn, have merely gone quiet.
> ...


Interestingly, as I posted before, below is what my husband discovered three years ago when we were looking at possibly buying in Spain - he looked at Albox on the internet and saw how cheap the properties were. One of the agents told him this was the reason why these houses were going so cheaply and that was the only way around the "stupid" laws on building there. Theres been a bit of confusion going on about it for years, but dont worry about it,????????????????. 

He discovered this much just by looking on the net 3 years ago and my friend an estate agent in my area said that this is more or less how it is?




What my husband discovered 3 years ago:

A lot of expats were being granted permission to build storehouses on rustic land, whereby there must be no electricity, water or windows allowed and then once its built, gradually adding on to it, until its a big, luxurious villa??? Apparently that was the "scam" a few years ago in that area. whether the British buyers were aware it was a scam or not, who knows? In actual fact, apparently that land wasnt rustic anyway, but "preserved" so no building at all should ever have taken place. 






So my point is that this issue is not as you imply a sudden announcement that these properties will be demolished without any notice at all!! Heck, if someone surfing the net can find that much out in half an hour from the comfort of his sitting room in the UK, then it surely is no surprise to the residents is it!

As for who should be paying out compensation and how much?? How much did these peaople pay and to whom? - and how much can they prove they paid in the first place? Afterall, what about the "infamous" carrier bag of black money that inevitably would have changed hands with no record? If the government were to offer compensation, they would hardly compensate for any illegal transactions? 

I dont want to distract from the loss that a lot of these people are going to suffer, afterall its their homes they are losing. Maybe your comment earlier about the government offering them some of the unsold properties that are in Spain would help?

As for all the underlying hostility and publicity that you seem to want to generate, I dont believe for one second that would help - I personally think its a good job that the Spanish media dont report it, it could cause more harm than good IMO


Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> As for all the underlying hostility and publicity that you seem to want to generate, I dont believe for one second that would help - I personally think its a good job that the Spanish media dont report it, it could cause more harm than good IMO
> 
> 
> Jo xxx



Sorry Jo, on this we disagree 

In all countries, publicity is always sought to further a cause or issue. This particular issue applies to Spanish nationals and expats alike, and in the free world we are allowed to demonstrate legally to highlight a cause.

So I really cant see how anyone can object to a legal peaceful protest or movement that highlights such an issue. Otherwise, if everyone just sits back and says "oh it will sort itself out" then the matter will never be resolved, nothing will be done, and things will stay as they are.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

And with the sensible words of Stravinsky... let's call it a day.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Yes ......... yes I _am_ Captain Sensible in disguise


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

lenox said:


> You should probably ask the Mayor of Albox (on the other forum). I'll give you the link if you pm me.
> 
> If I might generalise for a moment. Spain is not the same as the UK. I lie all day on the beach in Spain and get a sunburn. In England, someone lies all day on the beach and doesn't. Does this mean that I shouldn't have got my sunburn in Spain?
> There is a philosophy here (being, essentially a moorish/catholic tradition) to cut corners which, generally, doesn't matter much. Live and let live etc. However, when somebody in power is looking for a handle on you, he can generally find something. This is why Spaniards are so unconcerned about embargos, denuncias, court appearances, appearing on the RAI (government debtors list) and other dramas.
> ...


 I had to rub my eyes and blink several times to see if I've read this correctly. Nah - can't be. Can it? Seriously?????


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> And with the sensible words of Stravinsky... let's call it a day.


Stravinsky is right and peaceful protests are an essential part of democracy. Jo isn't denying that. She is questioning the form and substance of this particular protest. She has also made substantial points and put questions to you as have I which have not been answered. That's why it would suit you to close this discussion - you have evaded answering any of the points put to you.
Your analogy with the suntan is silly. The logic of what you are saying is that 'Yes, things have been done in an illegal or underhand way -another way of saying 'corrupt' -but hey, threse Northern Europeans bought in 'good faith' so let them keep the houses that shouldn't have been built. After all, this is Spain, they do things differently there.'
You have a seemingly low opinion of Spaniards for someone who claims to have been in Spain for so long. And you don't know that they bought in 'good faith'. See Tallulah and Jo's posts and refute what is incorrect there..
Surely the point is that at last the authorities are recognising that many wrong things have been done and are trying to put things right so that people can come to Spain and buy with confidence.
As for the Mayor....as I suspect he may have played a not insignificant role in encouraging these illegal builds. The least he can do is to try to gain a breathing space for the owners.
So.....I hope the peaceful protest goes off well, also Saturday's events. Why shouldn't these people shopw their feelings?
But judging from your performance in putting their case on this board, I'm encouraged by the fact that others have leading roles.
I must have a look at Euro Weekly and other papers to see their take on this.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Sorry Jo, on this we disagree
> 
> In all countries, publicity is always sought to further a cause or issue. This particular issue applies to Spanish nationals and expats alike, and in the free world we are allowed to demonstrate legally to highlight a cause.
> 
> So I really cant see how anyone can object to a legal peaceful protest or movement that highlights such an issue. Otherwise, if everyone just sits back and says "oh it will sort itself out" then the matter will never be resolved, nothing will be done, and things will stay as they are.



That is not an answer to what Jo said, though. She is merely questioning whether publicising this march in the form Lenox has presented it will achieve anything.
As for your last sentence: do you think a demonstration alone will resolve this? Especially one which seems to ignore the facts, at least those that apply to some cases? Do you think that people who knowingly 'cut corners' to save a few euros should be rewarded?
A legal, peaceful,protest is being planned in the UK. Muslim extremists intend to carry empty coffins through the streets of Wootton Bassett to draw attention to what they describe as the invasion of a Muslim country.
I am not a supporter of our Middle East involvements but I object strongly to this march which will not end peacefully.
Now I'm not suggesting that the marchers next week are in the same category as Muslim extremists or that they will end upbashing the Guardia with their walking sticks.
It is the_* principle *_I am setting out and on that principle Jo is entitled to her reasoned viewpoint.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I have done you an injustice , Lenox. Let me paste from your earlier post:

*The Junta de Andalucía has final authority. They chose to make some 11,000 homes (their figure) in the Eastern part of Almería illegal. Almost all those homes are in urbanisations on land which - in truth - is green-belt (following the ley de ordenación territorial - the Junta's attempt to organise the province's various charms).
So fine. The buyers were not told about the situation, rather obviously, by the sellers, many of whom have fled or, because of the downturn, have merely gone quiet*.

You have said at last what some of us have been saying all along. So let's take it from here:
It may well be true that some people bought in ignorance of the fact that their property was illegal so they may well be owed compensation -but from those that cheated them, not the JDA. These cheats may well be your Northern Europeans.
Your last sentence recognises this.
But what about the promotores, including 'Northern European' self-promotores, whose responsibility was to make sure that all was legal? What about those who knew they were acting illegally but ignored the fact because they wanted a cheap property? I must say that only very greedy and stupid people would take such a chance in a foreign countryand I rather think that they are getting what they deserved.
Fact is as you have stated above: the JDA has the constitutional authority to establish a regional plan and to refuse all applications for building which do not comply with its stipulations.
So why do you think people should be free to ignore that and when faced with the consequences assume they can get away with it?
That attitude shows an arrogance and a profound contempt for Spain and the Spanish people, a contempt you seem to share.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I wasnt intending to answer what Jo said, dont see why you should assume I was attempting to ..... I addressed what was contained in my quote.

Neither did I say that demonstrations alone would resolve it, or that people who cut corners should be rewarded. If anything is achieved through bringing this to the forefront then the innocent and guilty would be sorted out in the process, I would have thought that was fairly obvious!


Finally, comparing this to a peace protest being planned through a town in England that has become the whole focus point for our fallen hero's coming home from war is to say the least a little unreal!! Jo is of course entitled to her viewpoint. I never said she wasn't  So am I. And as Jo & I know each other quite well in forumland, I know she realises that to! 




mrypg9 said:


> That is not an answer to what Jo said, though. She is merely questioning whether publicising this march in the form Lenox has presented it will achieve anything.
> As for your last sentence: do you think a demonstration alone will resolve this? Especially one which seems to ignore the facts, at least those that apply to some cases? Do you think that people who knowingly 'cut corners' to save a few euros should be rewarded?
> A legal, peaceful,protest is being planned in the UK. Muslim extremists intend to carry empty coffins through the streets of Wootton Bassett to draw attention to what they describe as the invasion of a Muslim country.
> I am not a supporter of our Middle East involvements but I object strongly to this march which will not end peacefully.
> ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> You have said at last what some of us have been saying all along. So let's take it from here:
> It may well be true that some people bought in ignorance of the fact that their property was illegal so they may well be owed compensation -but from those that cheated them, not the JDA. These cheats may well be your Northern Europeans.
> Your last sentence recognises this.
> But what about the promotores, including 'Northern European' self-promotores, whose responsibility was to make sure that all was legal? What about those who knew they were acting illegally but ignored the fact because they wanted a cheap property? I must say that only very greedy and stupid people would take such a chance in a foreign countryand I rather think that they are getting what they deserved.
> ...






My husband said words to that effect Mary, altho he wasnt anywhere near as polite about his fellow countrymen!!?? 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I wasnt intending to answer what Jo said, dont see why you should assume I was attempting to ..... I addressed what was contained in my quote.
> 
> Neither did I say that demonstrations alone would resolve it, or that people who cut corners should be rewarded. If anything is achieved through bringing this to the forefront then the innocent and guilty would be sorted out in the process, I would have thought that was fairly obvious!
> 
> ...


No, I didn't compare the Almeria march to the one in Wootton Bassett - I thought I'd made that clear! It was the principle I was evoking...
It's sad but true that nothing much is achieved through peaceful protest. I spent a lot of my youth marching for nuclear disarmament but I now think that Reagan ended the Cold War by upping the ante. I was a misguided idealist.
I've both organised and been the recipient of petitions but in all cases these were ignored. As a local politician I learnt that you almost never have the luxury of being able to do the right thing - you have to choose the least harmful of the options presented to you.
But I also learnt that marching in a wrong cause -or even a just cause which is poorly presented -is nearly always counterproductive. 
I don't think it's obvious that demonstrations will start a process whereby the innocent and guilty would be sorted out. After all, those that have already taken place have done nothing to stop those threatened now.
To be honest, I don't know what the best course of action would be but I do know that distortion of the facts, making assertions without evidence to back them up and seeming to support the interests of only one group of the affected will not cut much ice. 
I can't see why the organisers of the march shouldn't take up my suggestions of a moratorium and a call for a Commission of Enquiry.
Every good march should have a focal point.


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## lenox (May 26, 2009)

I think reading that mypeg gets his/her news from the Euro Weakly pretty much let the penny drop.
You're all winding me up.
Bye.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> My husband said words to that effect Mary, altho he wasnt anywhere near as polite about his fellow countrymen!!??
> 
> Jo xxx


A man after my own heart


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lenox said:


> I think reading that mypeg gets his/her news from the Euro Weakly pretty much let the penny drop.
> You're all winding me up.
> Bye.


Actually, I've only seen the Euro Weekly once, months ago. It seemed OK as these papers go.I occasionally read 'Sur' online.
So sorry, wrong again.
If I read a newspaper it would be The Independent. Plus I get The Economist delivered.
But it does seem you are getting wound up....
My advice to you as a would-be politician is :Keep your cool and don't descend into childishness even if you are 'wound up'. It's a sign that people are getting to you'
What have you got against the Euro Weekly that you demean it so?
I think I'll see if I can find it online.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I didn't compare the Almeria march to the one in Wootton Bassett - I thought I'd made that clear! It was the principle I was evoking...
> It's sad but true that nothing much is achieved through peaceful protest. I spent a lot of my youth marching for nuclear disarmament but I now think that Reagan ended the Cold War by upping the ante. I was a misguided idealist.
> I've both organised and been the recipient of petitions but in all cases these were ignored. As a local politician I learnt that you almost never have the luxury of being able to do the right thing - you have to choose the least harmful of the options presented to you.
> But I also learnt that marching in a wrong cause -or even a just cause which is poorly presented -is nearly always counterproductive.
> ...


Well maybe you could have made a better comparison then to evoke your principal 

We have no idea yet what effect on government the demonstrations have had. Maybe nothing, maybe something ... Governments (including ours in the UK) put off doing anything until they really have to!!

I'm not sure it will work either, but YOU believed you would make a difference when you were marching didnt you?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Well maybe you could have made a better comparison then to evoke your principal
> 
> We have no idea yet what effect on government the demonstrations have had. Maybe nothing, maybe something ... Governments (including ours in the UK) put off doing anything until they really have to!!
> 
> I'm not sure it will work either, but YOU believed you would make a difference when you were marching didnt you?



As long as it is peaceful and doesnt annoy the locals then fine. I know how it enfuriates the Brtish when they see a bunch of "foreigners" marching in the UK about something, half the time no one even knows or cares what its about! I suspect thats human nature. I just cant believe they'll gain any sympathy or votes! But its a day out I guess. Just remember those who go that you are representing all of us Brits, so dont incite any trouble

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Well maybe you could have made a better comparison then to evoke your principal
> 
> We have no idea yet what effect on government the demonstrations have had. Maybe nothing, maybe something ... Governments (including ours in the UK) put off doing anything until they really have to!!
> 
> I'm not sure it will work either, but YOU believed you would make a difference when you were marching didnt you?



Yes, you're right, I should have found a better example but couldn't think of one.
But you know what I mean
Oh yes, I really believed. I spent decades believing -and working to see my beliefs put into practice-and I am now a total cynic. I think it was seeing how things actually work in politics and having to take responsibility -however small in the grand scheme of things -that made the scales fall from my eyes.
But I still believe that it's so important to get as near as you can to the truth, however hard it is or how long it takes. God knows it's hard enough to make peope listen when you do have truth on your side - you are just brushed aside when your arguments are not based on verifiable fact.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

_Illegal House "Lobbies"
Outlying area residents without licenses join together to get their homes legalised
Libertad Paloma, Cadiz Andalucía Section, El País, 7 December 2008

*They built without permits, paid much less for their houses than normal prices, and broke the law. But now they want more. Amongst the many illegal outlying residential areas that have sprung up in Andalucía, pressure groups have formed: neighbours have joined forces to convince authorities to overlook the offences that have been committed and to drop the cost of getting their houses regularised*. Angel Núnez, tax coordinator of the environmental department, has dealt with them and warns about the power of these "lobbies" whose demands the municipal governments cannot - or do not want to - ignore.

"We aren't illegal", say homeowners protected by neighbourhood groups in Chiclana (Cádiz) who began building in this town without any planning control two decades ago. Today there are 15,000 such houses and their owners stand fiercely by the letter of planning law. "We built our homes without building permits, but the majority of the houses are over four years old. They are untouchable," argues Rafael Ortiz, one of the group's spokespersons._

Another interesting report. It will be interesting to see whether they are indeed 'untouchable'.

And this from a property forum:

_ - the councillor of Mojacar who made these points conveniently omitted the fact that town councils routinely ignore regional building regulations in order to profit from the taxes they charge on new construction._


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> _Illegal House "Lobbies"
> Outlying area residents without licenses join together to get their homes legalised
> Libertad Paloma, Cadiz Andalucía Section, El País, 7 December 2008
> 
> ...



A woman on a mission!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> A woman on a mission!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


And for the time being, sod-all else to do!


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