# EDP Upgrade



## southsussex

Hi, I'm sure someone here will know the answer to this!

Our house in Central Portugal is nearly finished after a total renovation, including total rewire and new fusebox. 

However, I have a 15A supply and the fusebox trips (unsurprisingly) every time we put our kettle on and have our 11A Air Source Heat Pump heating running and electric lights on at the same time. We obviously need to upgrade to the 30A supply.

To cut a long story short a friend of ours who lives nearby is now trying to arrange the upgrade at the EDP agent in Ansiao. It seems that they are asking for some sort of written confirmation that our new system will take the 30A supply before they will come out.

Our builder, who is English, has confirmed that the system put in by a Portuguese electrician is perfectly able to take 30A but does not know what sort of written confirmation they want. Our friend's Portuguese is not good enough to establish exactly what they are after.

Can anyone help with what we need to get EDP to come out and upgrade our electricity supply?


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## canoeman

They'll want an official test certificate for the installation at the very least, depending on how or what your renovation entailed then this should have been part and parcel of your "project"

Upgrading to 30 Kva won't necessarily solve your problems, I would get installation checked and how wiring, sockets installed and or linked before just upping fuse, a higher rated fuse also increases the daily charge although unit price stays the same


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## Guest

Initially you need to establish if the fusebox (which I'd call a consumer unit) is tripping because you take too much power or because the earth leakage RCB is tripping. This is a safety thing.

If the electrician has finished the installation he should have certified it as safe to use, to the latest regulations, installed as per plans which includes the circuit breaker and RCB spec. Go back to him as he is the only one who can certify his work without a complete reinspection by another qualified elecrician. 

QUOTE=southsussex;1073964]Hi, I'm sure someone here will know the answer to this!

Our house in Central Portugal is nearly finished after a total renovation, including total rewire and new fusebox. 

However, I have a 15A supply and the fusebox trips (unsurprisingly) every time we put our kettle on and have our 11A Air Source Heat Pump heating running and electric lights on at the same time. We obviously need to upgrade to the 30A supply.

To cut a long story short a friend of ours who lives nearby is now trying to arrange the upgrade at the EDP agent in Ansiao. It seems that they are asking for some sort of written confirmation that our new system will take the 30A supply before they will come out.

Our builder, who is English, has confirmed that the system put in by a Portuguese electrician is perfectly able to take 30A but does not know what sort of written confirmation they want. Our friend's Portuguese is not good enough to establish exactly what they are after.

Can anyone help with what we need to get EDP to come out and upgrade our electricity supply?[/QUOTE]


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## canoeman

Just checking our tariffs on another matter and you might be creating problem your self as tariffs offered by EDP are 3.34, 4.6, 5.75, 6.9, 10.35, 13,8, 17.25 and 20.7 so outside those kva it'll be commercial or 3 phase.


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## southsussex

Hi Canoeman

My friend has been 'offered' 6.9kva once we can sort out the meter issue, so hopefully that should be ok - not that I would know!!

And Castros_bro and Canoeman! Thanks for the advice. I'm waiting to hear back from my builder to see if he suggests going back to the electrician, which seems the obvious solution. At the moment he has only suggested getting a "certiel from an electrical engineer" but as this will be at a cost to me I am obviously reluctant.


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## canoeman

Should have been part of work, and your builder should know better! bit lost thought you said you already had 15 amp? , the EDP Potencia is the fuse they fit and is sealed to prevent tampering, and your daily and kw units are based on that rating 6.9 is 0,3440 per day and 0,1377 per kwh and rises quite dramatically from there, suggest you try to get everything working within that Potencia


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## southsussex

canoeman said:


> Should have been part of work, and your builder should know better! bit lost thought you said you already had 15 amp? , the EDP Potencia is the fuse they fit and is sealed to prevent tampering, and your daily and kw units are based on that rating 6.9 is 0,3440 per day and 0,1377 per kwh and rises quite dramatically from there, suggest you try to get everything working within that Potencia



I'm a bit lost as well! As you can guess I don't really understand what I need except to say that with the air source hear pump on (which is a bit like a house air con unit) at 11A, when the kettle is put on we have to switch off the lights. The house is in the final part of being finished and when we were there in February it was for the first time. I was told I have a 15A mains connection and needed 30A. Now we are back in the UK our friend is trying to sort it out for us and EDP have told her that we need this meter certification and we will then be able to upgrade to 6.9kva, though what this means I haven't a clue really http://img.expatforum.com/expats/images/smilies/confused.gif


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## canoeman

Did you require a "Project" for renovation? if so then various tests would be mandatory to complete, one of those would be an electrical certificate that you would need to get a permanent supply from EDP.

Reading between lines it seems you might not have a project, if the electrics have been replaced then they should be certified for your own sake, but it seems as if EDP are making this a condition of a higher potencia rating, if you have an EDP bill then it will state on there what you currently have, if the account is with EDP Servico Universal there is a box on front page left states your name, NIF, address etc the one your interested in is the Potencia Contrado it will state one of the ones I posted like 4,6 kVA so at least establish what you have now, I'd throw this back to your builder he should be aware of what is required and as he's sub contracted? work to a Portuguese electrician should therefore be responsible, anything in writing? 

In meantime take the easy course and have an old fashioned kettle on hopefully a gas hob


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## southsussex

canoeman said:


> Did you require a "Project" for renovation? if so then various tests would be mandatory to complete, one of those would be an electrical certificate that you would need to get a permanent supply from EDP.
> 
> Reading between lines it seems you might not have a project, if the electrics have been replaced then they should be certified for your own sake, but it seems as if EDP are making this a condition of a higher potencia rating, if you have an EDP bill then it will state on there what you currently have, if the account is with EDP Servico Universal there is a box on front page left states your name, NIF, address etc the one your interested in is the Potencia Contrado it will state one of the ones I posted like 4,6 kVA so at least establish what you have now, I'd throw this back to your builder he should be aware of what is required and as he's sub contracted? work to a Portuguese electrician should therefore be responsible, anything in writing?
> 
> In meantime take the easy course and have an old fashioned kettle on hopefully a gas hob


Thanks Canoeman, this seems good advice and will throw this back to the builder. Because we replaced 'like with like' we apparently didn't need a project, but there is no reason why we shouldn't have a certificate from the electrician.


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## Guest

*Confused?*

Hi,

Not trying to be funny but to clear up a confusion. 

Your Electricity. 

Your supply is _about_ 250 volts AC, if you use 4A at 250 Volts that is 4 X 250 = 1000VA or 1kVA.

If you use 15A at 250 Volt that is 3.750kVA
If you use 30A at 250 volt that is 7.5 kVA 

If the heat pump runs at 11A and the lights run 0.5A (8 x 60 bulbs?) you have 4.5A left for you kettle. If you use a 1kw kettle you should be ok till your electrics are changed. Oh, that's the same type of kettle as we've got!!

Your air source heat pump IS a modified aircon but with the hot bit inside and the cold bit outside. 






southsussex said:


> I'm a bit lost as well! As you can guess I don't really understand what I need except to say that with the air source hear pump on (which is a bit like a house air con unit) at 11A, when the kettle is put on we have to switch off the lights. The house is in the final part of being finished and when we were there in February it was for the first time. I was told I have a 15A mains connection and needed 30A. Now we are back in the UK our friend is trying to sort it out for us and EDP have told her that we need this meter certification and we will then be able to upgrade to 6.9kva, though what this means I haven't a clue really http://img.expatforum.com/expats/images/smilies/confused.gif


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## southsussex

castros_bro said:


> Hi,
> 
> Not trying to be funny but to clear up a confusion.
> 
> Your Electricity.
> 
> Your supply is _about_ 250 volts AC, if you use 4A at 250 Volts that is 4 X 250 = 1000VA or 1kVA.
> 
> If you use 15A at 250 Volt that is 3.750kVA
> If you use 30A at 250 volt that is 7.5 kVA
> 
> If the heat pump runs at 11A and the lights run 0.5A (8 x 60 bulbs?) you have 4.5A left for you kettle. If you use a 1kw kettle you should be ok till your electrics are changed. Oh, that's the same type of kettle as we've got!!
> 
> Your air source heat pump IS a modified aircon but with the hot bit inside and the cold bit outside.



Thank you Castros! I honestly had no idea on how the kVA worked or fitted in with the power of appliances. This helps and makes me understand why I really do need to upgrade for my winter power requirements. The advice is appreciated.

My builder tells me that I need a Certiel or ITED (he is not sure which) and an electrician can't issue them, only an electrical engineer can. Not understanding the language, the system, electrics and being over in the UK puts me somewhat at a disadvantage At the end of the day I expect that it will, as usual, cost me some more money to get sorted


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## canoeman

No doubt, have you checked exactly what Potencia you have now? better to increase Potencia by small steps (EDP don't charge) as price goes up steeply

ITED is to do with telephones/telecommunication
CERTIEL is the Electrical Certification Body


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## Guest

*Missed a bit*

Sorry, I missed the bit about kilowatts (kW) which may help understanding.

For a heater 1kw = 1kVA so for simplicity assume all your electrical stuff consumes power are like heaters (for motors etc this is not quite true but gives a "ball park" figure).

Your supply is about 250 volts AC, if you use 4A at 250 Volts that is 4 X 250 = 1000VA or 1kVA or 1kW

If you use 15A at 250 Volt that is 3.750kVA (kW)
If you use 30A at 250 volt that is 7.5 kVA (kW)

If the heat pump runs at 11A and the lights run 0.5A (8 x 60w bulbs?) you have 4.5A left for you kettle. If you use a 1kVA (1kW) kettle you should be ok till your electrics are changed. The UK kettle is often 3kW so takes 12A (has a 13amp fused plug) so it consumes as much power as your heat pump.

Your air source heat pump IS a modified aircon but with the hot bit inside and the cold bit outside.


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## bobmurdy

*EDP Contract and uplift*

Hi, I have also fallen foul of this regulation as unfortunately it does not appear to be the same for all areas of Portugal. I spent hours on the phone trying to sort this out when I was last in Portugal and even though I had made arrangements through the local EDP outlet it appears that they were not aware of this requirement for a certificate. So although I had an agreed time and date for the engineer to turn up and raise the electricity he did not materialise. Fortunately there were some other guys working on some street lights and after talking with them they contacted their colleuge who assured them he had no order to come to my house. Needless to say I spent many an hour chasing EDP who took my details and never came back to me. After a couple of days I made contact with my builder who explained the situation to me and that he would make arrangments in my absence. 

My memory is a bit vague but I think I currently have 6.9 and wanted to upgrade to 10.3 the house RCD where the electric enters the house is 30Amp and the fuse downstairs was 15 but has been replaced with 45Amp and now the 30Amp is tripping when I'm consuming too much power.

So my question is when I'm upgraded to 10.3 will this assist with my problem, providing I do not go over this.

A second point there appears to be 2 different types of contract with EDP can someone please explain what the difference is?

Regards,

Bob


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## canoeman

Simple contract is where you pay same daily & unit charges all year,
Bi & Tri hourly are off peak rates mainly suitable for workers or if you run major consumption during off peak hours by fitting say timers to pools, washing machines, dishwashers etc


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## steve01

Just a note on this.
We've had several 'tripping' problems in similar circumstances.
In every case it was a similar reason.
When some types of high Ampage electrical appliances start they briefly use a much higher Ampage than their rating.
We had this problem with a kettle - the element was faulty - new 15 euro kettle fixed it.
Same problem with the dishwasher on a heat cycle - again new element stopped the tripping.
Same problem the the swimming pool - faulty alternator tripped whenever the pool started when other appliances were running.
It may be a simple (but hard to find) fault causing the problem and is worth investigating first .
e.g heat pumps have a similar starting mechanism to swimming pools.
Best of luck


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## BodgieMcBodge

I think you may be confusing two things, you should have an residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB) to protect your power installation so there are two ways the power to trip out. 

A/ if the used current (amps) is higher then the rated breaker current
B/if there is a slight difference between the current in the live and the nutural the RCCB will trip.

Usually for heating elements, especially for water, the trip is caused by B not A. and fraction of current maybe 30mA will trip RCCB.

Some appliances do take more power on start up but this is within their manufacture plated rating, _startup power_ and _running power_, it cannot be otherewise unless he has a malfunction.

Is there a reason why you have an alternator with your swimming pool, I've never heard of this before and can't think what it could be doing in there?

Regards



steve01 said:


> Just a note on this.
> We've had several 'tripping' problems in similar circumstances.
> In every case it was a similar reason.
> When some types of high Ampage electrical appliances start they briefly use a much higher Ampage than their rating.
> We had this problem with a kettle - the element was faulty - new 15 euro kettle fixed it.
> Same problem with the dishwasher on a heat cycle - again new element stopped the tripping.
> Same problem the the swimming pool - faulty alternator tripped whenever the pool started when other appliances were running.
> It may be a simple (but hard to find) fault causing the problem and is worth investigating first .
> e.g heat pumps have a similar starting mechanism to swimming pools.
> Best of luck


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## steve01

OOPS, must be all the red wine

I meant a capacitor of course - but the end result of the problem still stands.
I'm not a techie, so just offer any help i can - just suggesting its worth checking the small end of the problem before digging the mains up

Fortunately BODGIEmcbodgup you seen to be an expert 

Sadly no-one loves a smartarse


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## BodgieMcBodge

*clamponmeter*

If you have a few cents spare then arm yourself with a clamp on meter -10euro- and ou can check what current is flowing up and down your power cables. Hours of endless fun and seeing what creates your elecricity bill and trace problems of blown fuses



steve01 said:


> OOPS, must be all the red wine
> 
> I meant a capacitor of course - but the end result of the problem still stands.
> I'm not a techie, so just offer any help i can - just suggesting its worth checking the small end of the problem before digging the mains up
> 
> Fortunately BODGIEmcbodgup you seen to be an expert
> 
> Sadly no-one loves a smartarse


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## jaykay2

southsussex said:


> Hi, I'm sure someone here will know the answer to this!
> 
> Our house in Central Portugal is nearly finished after a total renovation, including total rewire and new fusebox.
> 
> However, I have a 15A supply and the fusebox trips (unsurprisingly) every time we put our kettle on and have our 11A Air Source Heat Pump heating running and electric lights on at the same time. We obviously need to upgrade to the 30A supply.
> 
> To cut a long story short a friend of ours who lives nearby is now trying to arrange the upgrade at the EDP agent in Ansiao. It seems that they are asking for some sort of written confirmation that our new system will take the 30A supply before they will come out.
> 
> Our builder, who is English, has confirmed that the system put in by a Portuguese electrician is perfectly able to take 30A but does not know what sort of written confirmation they want. Our friend's Portuguese is not good enough to establish exactly what they are after.
> 
> Can anyone help with what we need to get EDP to come out and upgrade our electricity supply?


Been down this route, basically you need your electrician to get Certiel to come and certify the work, we had to do this after having an air source heat pump installed,

Cannot give you the link as this forum does not let me until I have made 4 posts!!
so google for "certiel" in portugal, that should find it for you

hope this helps


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## canoeman

Here you go A Certiel - Portal
this is Telecom ANACOM - ITED - ITUR but PT can do this themselves


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## noserhodes

hi all i find this rather amusing, i phoned edp for an upgrade from 15 amp to a 30 amp they arrived two days later, did the changeover no questions asked on recent electrical works carried out, but did recommend a new consumer unit as current one is 30years old, they then went on their way, no fuss no need to look at any certificates, i cant understand why you are having probs its a simple 2 minute install


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## southsussex

noserhodes said:


> hi all i find this rather amusing, i phoned edp for an upgrade from 15 amp to a 30 amp they arrived two days later, did the changeover no questions asked on recent electrical works carried out, but did recommend a new consumer unit as current one is 30years old, they then went on their way, no fuss no need to look at any certificates, i cant understand why you are having probs its a simple 2 minute install


I was told it was a simple quick job as well!!! It was only when we got to the EDP Agent that we were asked for certificates. Like most things, I suppose its who you ask :-(

Its a problem for me as my builder is just blanking my request for him to ask the electrician or let me ring him (via my Portuguese teacher!!!) and I can't get an upgrade without one. Very frustrating.


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## canoeman

Hope you retained some money from builder that might make him more cooperative


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## BodgieMcBodge

*Question*

Was the electric system rewired then you asked for power increase? Or was the wire system old so it has been certified in the past for 30A but used on 15A then EDP can just change breaker.




noserhodes said:


> hi all i find this rather amusing, i phoned edp for an upgrade from 15 amp to a 30 amp they arrived two days later, did the changeover no questions asked on recent electrical works carried out, but did recommend a new consumer unit as current one is 30years old, they then went on their way, no fuss no need to look at any certificates, i cant understand why you are having probs its a simple 2 minute install


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## southsussex

canoeman said:


> Hope you retained some money from builder that might make him more cooperative


He's doing some garden walls at the moment!!


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## southsussex

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Was the electric system rewired then you asked for power increase? Or was the wire system old so it has been certified in the past for 30A but used on 15A then EDP can just change breaker.


It was a complete rewire and then reconnected. He says as I never asked for a higher supply its my fault, I say I don't have a scoobie about electrics and thats what I employ him for!!

I'm good with computers and if I was doing a big upgrade on his PC I wouldn't ignore the fact it needed more RAM and let him discover later on it wasn't working how he expected - I would tell him the facts and tell him he should have that upgraded as well. Sadly my analogy was not appreciated!


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## canoeman

send you a PM


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## Etchy Boy

castros_bro said:


> Sorry, I missed the bit about kilowatts (kW) which may help understanding.
> 
> For a heater 1kw = 1kVA so for simplicity assume all your electrical stuff consumes power are like heaters (for motors etc this is not quite true but gives a "ball park" figure).
> 
> Your supply is about 250 volts AC, if you use 4A at 250 Volts that is 4 X 250 = 1000VA or 1kVA or 1kW
> 
> If you use 15A at 250 Volt that is 3.750kVA (kW)
> If you use 30A at 250 volt that is 7.5 kVA (kW)
> 
> If the heat pump runs at 11A and the lights run 0.5A (8 x 60w bulbs?) you have 4.5A left for you kettle. If you use a 1kVA (1kW) kettle you should be ok till your electrics are changed. The UK kettle is often 3kW so takes 12A (has a 13amp fused plug) so it consumes as much power as your heat pump.
> 
> Your air source heat pump IS a modified aircon but with the hot bit inside and the cold bit outside.


1kW is less than 1kVA in AC si no? Since power factor would be less than 1?

I increased mine from 4.6 to 6.9 with EDP ... the daily charge wasnt that much more for this ...but I had issues in winter when I bought a 2.5kW oil heater ... my kettle is prob 2kW, electric hob 1.5 each (4 of them), microwave prob 1, hoover up to 2kw, and extractor fan I think 300w .... so when I was cooking with heater on, as soon as keetle comes on ... kaboooommm


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## BodgieMcBodge

*Power factor heater =1*

Power factor heater = 1
other power factors for motor less (0.8 ?) 
also VAC may be 220 not 250 but then it's complicated and I run out of fingers to count with and non techs will give up trying to understand.



Etchy Boy said:


> 1kW is less than 1kVA in AC si no? Since power factor would be less than 1?
> 
> I increased mine from 4.6 to 6.9 with EDP ... the daily charge wasnt that much more for this ...but I had issues in winter when I bought a 2.5kW oil heater ... my kettle is prob 2kW, electric hob 1.5 each (4 of them), microwave prob 1, hoover up to 2kw, and extractor fan I think 300w .... so when I was cooking with heater on, as soon as keetle comes on ... kaboooommm


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