# Advice for marketer choosing - US, UK or netherlands



## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi all, 

This is a fantastic site - great work by the regular contributors - both useful and realistic advice!

I am an Australian marketer with a background in consumer good marketing (up to Senior Brand Manager for a multinational) + I have had my own marketing and branding strategic consulting business. 

I have an MBA and an unrelated undergrad degree. 
I also have an EU passport. 

I am currently in the process of choosing US, UK or Netherlands. My desire is not only to have a new experience, but also to work amongst high quality peers to extend my own thinking. My preference is the States for this reason, but it is a little scary contemplating moving with a marketing profession as this is reasonably common. However, a monster search for marketing near NY registered 5000+ results!

My questions:
1. Can someone advise what the environment is like for FMCG marketing currently? 
2. Are there specialist marketing recruiters that I should know about? 
3. Is there someone who has had experience working in marketing in both / all of these countries that could advise pros and cons? 

Open to any opinions and advice for an expat newbie..

Thanks!!!

natasja


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

No idea about marketing, I'm afraid.

But on the immigration front, if you're an Australian citizen you have access to the E3 visa. Research the details -- the employer has to do very little to get you through the door and there is minimal waiting time. This is a great plus over, say, the H1b visa.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

What EU passport do you have? If it's not Dutch well the Netherlands is no go. You will never progress with your career in that country. Spain and Switzerland are similar and are basically no go for professionals now from overseas.

America is the place to be but it will coem down if you can get a VISA.


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

Weebie said:


> What EU passport do you have? If it's not Dutch well the Netherlands is no go. You will never progress with your career in that country. Spain and Switzerland are similar and are basically no go for professionals now from overseas.
> 
> America is the place to be but it will coem down if you can get a VISA.



Hi and thanks for the response! Actually, I do have a Dutch passport. What do you mean I will never progress with a career in the Netherlands - is that because of the nature of the industry there or as I am a 'foreigner' (even with a Dutch passport - I do not speak much Dutch). 

Thanks again, 

natasja


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Natasja

Good on you for planning this move. I've worked in marketing in UK, US and pan-Emea roles and you really broaden your experience working in the different environments. 

Location: I started in the UK, then did pan-Emea and the reason I eventually moved to the US was that it was inevitably the place where the business decisions were made. In the regions, what we were doing was pretty much a variation on the theme of 'implemention or localization'and I wanted to get closer to where the real decisions were made. I worked in US corporate HQ for 7 years and it was invaluable & fun. (I also wanted to do more climbing and California has great mountains )

I was b2b not fmcg, but I think the principle probably still holds - you will get a different level of experience, but it depends what you are aiming for I guess. A US-based company has the potential to give you global experience, but many UK companies will give you UK or pan-Emea experience - which are you looking for?

Recruiters: Didn't use them, I went through personal contacts/clients and got offers that way. Before I started, I did however use US based resume writers who converted my UK CV into language that I would never have used, and a couple of interview coaches and they were invaluable. 

If you seriously want to get a job in another country I would absolutely advise this step as you need to be able to fluently communicate in their language, even if it's just the local variation of English.

If you want UK based marketing recruiters I can certainly let you have some of those. 

Just a thought, are you active on social networking? Many recruiters will be looking for that, and a google search for both positive and potential negative mentions is a standard part of most recruitment procedures these days.

Let me know if I can give any more help.


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

Fatbrit said:


> No idea about marketing, I'm afraid.
> 
> But on the immigration front, if you're an Australian citizen you have access to the E3 visa. Research the details -- the employer has to do very little to get you through the door and there is minimal waiting time. This is a great plus over, say, the H1b visa.


Hi - thanks for the tip re. the E3 passport. I will speak to the embassy here to get a more nuanced read on the reality of applying for this and the potential issues for companies. 

Thanks! 
n


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

GillianF said:


> Hi Natasja
> 
> Good on you for planning this move. I've worked in marketing in UK, US and pan-Emea roles and you really broaden your experience working in the different environments.
> 
> ...


Gillian, it is really good to speak with someone else who has done this - it means it is possible despite all the naysayers!  Thanks for taking the time to give some advice!

Re. what I am looking for - I want to be closer to innovation in marketing and brand / business thinking. The people / orgs that inspire me (i.e. Seth, PSFK, IDEO, Malcolm Gladwell, church of the customer, TechCrunch) are mostly U.S. based. I may be missing a whole lot of EMEA thinking (i.e. Added Value are amazing), what do you think?

Thanks for the tip re. re-writing my resume and using coaches for the target country- I definitely will do this. 

I am afraid I have a very limited network in the U.S. in the industry. I have friends of friends but not anyone in the industry. Yes, I am a bit active on social networking (@tasjimi), however over the last 6 months this has dropped off with work demands. 

So - at this stage options are:
1. apply for U.S. roles and go to the U.S. on a tourist visa to try and meet with some potential companies to get work.
2. work in the UK (which will be easier to get work with no Visa issues) and use the next 12 months to build my social media presence more, and THEN apply to US. companies. Through this process I could also make more contacts in the U.S.

They are not necessarily mutually exclusive - I may visit the states on my way to the UK to start to make connections. 

Your thoughts?

Yes, the names of a few specialist marketing recruiters in the UK would be really useful. Also, if you can recommend any active online marketing communities that are U.S. based that I can begin to tap into that would be great also!

Thanks again!


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Natasja - let me have a think about the marketing side of things, tho' I totally agree with what you say about getting closer to the innovation, esp. with the shifts that are currently happening.

If there is any way you can get the E3 visa that would be great - I went in on an H1B and by the time I left they were practically impossible to get hold of.

Another route to think of if the E3 thing doesn't work out.....start working for a US firm overseas and then go in on an L1 (internal managerial transfer), if that route still works. I worked with a lot of people who did that, though with US unemployment at an all time high might be a tad tricky now.

G


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

GillianF said:


> Hi Natasja - let me have a think about the marketing side of things, tho' I totally agree with what you say about getting closer to the innovation, esp. with the shifts that are currently happening.
> 
> If there is any way you can get the E3 visa that would be great - I went in on an H1B and by the time I left they were practically impossible to get hold of.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian, yep, I think that sounds like a good plan! Just Americanised the resume and about to see how I go response-wise applying to roles in NY and Boston.
Thanks again for your advice!

natasja


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Natasja

Sorry for the delay in replying. 

Marketing:
The marketing recruiting agency I have used the most is Marketing Jobs, Vacancies & Recruitment - Michael Page International . They look like they have got very big since I last used them, which has both its upsides (lots of jobs) and downsides (less personal care) –they were very small when I first used them, but it’s good to see them doing well.

Looking at the rest of the market it seems as though it has got very segmented, which makes sense, but I’m afraid I don’t know who’s top in each segment. A quick chat with them might sort out how much they know & what sort of clients they have on their books.

The top UK marketing mag used to be Marketing Week Marketing Jobs & Marketing News - Media, Advertising, Brands - Marketing Week , though with the move of media online I don’t know if that’s changed. It always had an fmcg bias in terms of editorial, so you might want to give it a look, and it was a great place for jobs. The Sunday Times was also a good place and the Guardian on a Monday.

Location: One thing to think about before deciding on US/UK is which you prefer as a country as you’ll be living as well as working there. The US and UK have very different: cultures; attitudes to holiday/vacations (UK 25 days min, US 10-15); weather (sounds trivial, but can be huge for some people); cost of living; countryside, etc, etc.


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Natasja

I found the details of the US interview coach I worked with. You can find her at: Job Interview Coaching, Preparation, Interviewing Skill Training, Tips, Questions and Answers. I used her both when I was first looking to move over and again several years later when going for another job.

Looks like she’s got quite big since I used her, but even if you don’t work with her, she’ll give you an idea of what’s out there. Getting taped so you can hear yourself is painful, but a great learning tool.

I used one of her books extensively (Boost Your Interview IQ ) as it has some great questions in it, both ones you should really prep for, and some brilliant ones to ask the interviewers themselves. There were a few ones in there that I used that really caused the interviewers to stop and think and got me some great information about the companies and job. 

Cheers
Gillian


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

GillianF said:


> Hi Natasja
> 
> Sorry for the delay in replying.
> 
> ...


Gillian - again, WOW. Thank you for the thoughtful and thorough advice. Also the link to the interview coach too. You comments on making connections in the U.S. too have helped me form my strategy of approach. 
I am now booked! Two weeks in NY before heading on to the UK. 
And LOTS of work to do in between to make it as successful as possible. 

Thanks again, you have been so helpful!!! 

natasja


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Great to hear you are taking action, so many people just sit and think about it......congrats!!

I don't know what type/size of company you are aiming for, but assuming you'll be working on some sort of visa, it can be a good idea to go for a company that offers a degree of stability - if that's possible these days. 

I know that 'stability' sounds pretty boring in marketing terms, but as an immigrant worker one can be so much more vulnerable if anything untoward were to happen (merger, layoffs etc) as it is harder to get another job, or depending on your visa restrictions, impossible. 

I interviewed for a cool/hip/trendy Silicon Valley start-up and they seemed just sooo much fun, and I really wanted to work there. But.....start-ups and smaller companies can be more unstable and if they are going through a very fast growth phase there can be a lot of tensions. Now that can be a good thing sometimes as you get more creative energy, but not so good if your presence in the country depends on it. So I went for a big blue chip, who ironically undertook a massive M&A compaign & laid off many thousands, but it was still the safer bet. A potential tradeoff you may want to consider. 

A great way to weed out any instability, conflict, office politics etc at the interview stage is this killer question (it's one of Carole Martin's): "if someone were to stumble in this role, what might have caused that?" People never expect you to ask them anything like that and as it catches them off guard you usually get the truth, not the 'polished version of what's happening that we want to tell outsiders'.

It's a great one to ask several different people as they often have a different answer & when you compare those answers it's good way to find out how well various teams/departments work together, whether you will have a realistic budget to suceed etc . 

Very good luck and if you have any q's give me a shout.


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

GillianF said:


> Great to hear you are taking action, so many people just sit and think about it......congrats!!
> 
> I don't know what type/size of company you are aiming for, but assuming you'll be working on some sort of visa, it can be a good idea to go for a company that offers a degree of stability - if that's possible these days.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian, 

Thanks for the good luck vibes!!

Good point re. being aware of stability. And rightly both now more than ever and also in this space. I have been involved in different ways with several start-ups so I am a bit more aware of some of the risks and also the right questions to ask. 

My goal is medium sized - not to big to quash innovation and big enough for room to grow 

One remaining Q....and not sure if this is appropriate, so please tell me if not...but it would be great to buy you a beer as a thank you once I land in London, if that works for you. If not - big thanks again and all the best to you too!


natasja

Great questions


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## Dark Pop (Mar 29, 2010)

nmarcelis said:


> My desire is not only to have a *new experience*, but also to work amongst *high quality peers *to extend my own thinking.


If that's your criteria

1. Netherlands
2. U.S.
3 Anywhere but the U.K.


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## GillianF (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Natasja – sounds like you’re getting ready to go. Many thanks for the offer of a beer, I would absolutely love one but I live at the other end of the country (I live in the Lake District on the border of Scotland, that goodness for the internet) and tend to go up to Edinburgh instead of down to London. I’ll probably next be in London in July, don’t know if that coincides with your visit?

Btw, I’m putting together a guide for people to help them position their experience for potential foreign employers. Sounds like you’re pretty sorted on that front, but if you’d like a draft copy to look overI’d be happy to send it to you if you’d think it would be helpful.

Happy Easter
Gillian


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

Dark Pop said:


> If that's your criteria
> 
> 1. Netherlands
> 2. U.S.
> 3 Anywhere but the U.K.


Hi!

Thanks for the opinion! Hmmm...I know what you mean about the U.K. Any recommendations for companies to speak with in the Netherlands?

Thanks!

natasja


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## nmarcelis (Mar 1, 2010)

GillianF said:


> Hi Natasja – sounds like you’re getting ready to go. Many thanks for the offer of a beer, I would absolutely love one but I live at the other end of the country (I live in the Lake District on the border of Scotland, that goodness for the internet) and tend to go up to Edinburgh instead of down to London. I’ll probably next be in London in July, don’t know if that coincides with your visit?
> 
> Btw, I’m putting together a guide for people to help them position their experience for potential foreign employers. Sounds like you’re pretty sorted on that front, but if you’d like a draft copy to look overI’d be happy to send it to you if you’d think it would be helpful.
> 
> ...


Hi Gillian!
 Sounds like a lovely part of the world! If you do have a spare moment in London, I should be there in July, so please do look me up!

I think your guide would be wonderful! Your advice was already so helpful to me  Would love a copy and happy to read through / make suggestions if you would like also. 

My details are [email protected]. 

Thanks again and hopefully we manage to make that beer!

n


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