# How about Germany today, after New Year Eve attack?



## yoyotv

I am quite shock and surprise when I heard about the attack, especially it is more than 03 days after the event - the media is quite slow, , likes in 1916, not 2016.

Now, it seems to me that the media start to exploit: waves of articles about the New year attack, but as usual, they are controversy.

How is Germany today, how do people think and react? Do they still support the open door policy, or they want to stop the immigration stream to Germany?


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## yoyotv

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/09/o...logne-hysteria.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur


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## jojo

I'm just surprised that Europe didnt see this coming. Inviting over a million refugees, most young males who come from a culture and religion who have no respect for women, who have been brought up to believe that women are second rate - especially those not wearing niqabs or burkas. What did they expect to happen?? and IMO this isnt the end of it! I dont know the answer either

Jo xxx


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## Bevdeforges

Not sure if things have changed, but in the initial reports, they also arrested an American and quite a few others of various nationalities, not all refugees nor asylum seekers.

Yes, it's a problem. And yes it's something European countries, particularly Germany, are going to have to find a way to deal with. Simply putting up walls isn't going to keep the refugees out of Europe. They'll slip in or sneak in somehow. Priority needs to be given to families with children. And there needs to be an effort to educate the refugees in some of main cultural differences of their new homes. (How many times have we said here that new countries should come with a users' manual?)
Cheers,
Bev


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## jojo

To be honest, there is so much propaganda, political correctness, political manipulation, silence...., so many agendas from all sides at the moment, its hard to know what is true, what is right and what isnt. So to know how this is all going to eventually pan out is impossible to predict. 

Jo xxx


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## yoyotv

Bevdeforges said:


> Not sure if things have changed, but in the initial reports, they also arrested an American and quite a few others of various nationalities, not all refugees nor asylum seekers.
> 
> Yes, it's a problem. And yes it's something European countries, particularly Germany, are going to have to find a way to deal with. Simply putting up walls isn't going to keep the refugees out of Europe. They'll slip in or sneak in somehow. Priority needs to be given to families with children. And there needs to be an effort to educate the refugees in some of main cultural differences of their new homes. (How many times have we said here that new countries should come with a users' manual?)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Well, do you think "a user's manual" helps? I have stay in Europe for years, but I have to say I am not a 'real" European, since I spent more than 20 years of my life in my home town, and it is not easy to change.

(Maybe I am an exception case, since I am too stupid to change  but I am afraid that a quick guide for immigrants won't work)


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## Bevdeforges

We've joked about the "users manual" for ages. It's just a joke - but the current influx of refugees, many of whom actually NEED to find a refuge, raises the issue in a rather critical manner. Europeans forever go on about "assimilating" or "integrating" new arrivals, but they don't really define what they mean by that.

Obviously, cultural norms and values has to be a big part of the integration process - but there are few governments who address that issue head on. Is going to mass on Sundays part of the "culture" in Europe? Is the treatment of women part of that? (And in some countries, the "cultural" norms for treatment of women aren't all that great, even here in Europe.) Or should new arrivals simply be given a sort of crash course on the law - especially those laws that may be different from those where they come from? (Though European countries don't generally deport native born folks who break the law, either.)

It's a very difficult decision and it's going to be difficult finding an effective solution.
Cheers,
Bev


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## jojo

It seems to me that Europes acceptance and tolerance of other cultures and religions is a possible cause of the lack of integration. It allows immigrants to remain "different". Which doesn't work. Immigrants should be prepared mentally to accept the culture of their new home and integrate properly. At the moment Europe, in its naivety seems to treat these people as "guests", with all the privileges and politeness which keeps them apart and causes mass resentment. the phrase and attitude "we must help these poor people" is a wonderful sentiment, but rather patronising and "superior" if all we do is give handouts and charity and politely accept and encourage the differences.

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## ALKB

Bevdeforges said:


> We've joked about the "users manual" for ages. It's just a joke - but the current influx of refugees, many of whom actually NEED to find a refuge, raises the issue in a rather critical manner. Europeans forever go on about "assimilating" or "integrating" new arrivals, but they don't really define what they mean by that.
> 
> Obviously, cultural norms and values has to be a big part of the integration process - but there are few governments who address that issue head on. Is going to mass on Sundays part of the "culture" in Europe? Is the treatment of women part of that? (And in some countries, the "cultural" norms for treatment of women aren't all that great, even here in Europe.) Or should new arrivals simply be given a sort of crash course on the law - especially those laws that may be different from those where they come from? (Though European countries don't generally deport native born folks who break the law, either.)
> 
> It's a very difficult decision and it's going to be difficult finding an effective solution.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Germany has actually started handing out a sort of manual (I think in October/November, so well before New Year's Eve):

englisch / english – Refugee Guide.de | A Guide for Communication and Orientation in Germany

The problem with any manual is that the recipient needs to actually be interested, want to read and follow it. How many of us actually sit down with the manual to a new TV and read it and how many of us think: "I can wing it, I know enough about TV's in general to be alright without any tedious studying"?

I was not surprised about what happened on New Year's Eve.

Although I haven't seen such attacks myself, I well remember how young men took over all public spaces as soon as night fell when I was living in Pakistan. "Outside" (apart from shopping centres) was not a safe place to be for women in the dark. Not that I felt particularly safe during daytime, either...


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## Bevdeforges

I had heard that there was some move toward a "manual" or training of some variety. In the early days (back during the Bosnian crisis), I think a couple of the states developed a "test" to determine a refugee's state of integration. But the questions were fairly obviously pointed toward certain ethnic groups.

The tough question is, however, how much of your own culture or self do you have to give up in order to be appropriately "integrated?" When I first arrived in France, I fell in with a group of US expats, a few of whom were "offended" by immigrants continuing to wear their national style of dress. Having just arrived myself, this struck me as weird, because the last thing I wanted to do on arrival in a "foreign" country was to give up all my comfortable clothes to try and dress like a "French woman". Some of the expats were adamant that you "shouldn't" or "musn't" wear sneakers or trainers when walking in Paris - if only because "it labels you as a tourist." However, for those of us who wanted to walk about the city, it seemed just plain stupid to wear high heels for sightseeing. At what point does "dressing like an American tourist" become failure to integrate? And is choosing to wear what you have in your closet and feel comfortable wearing a "refusal" to integrate?

By and large, we're talking about little stuff - like clothes or food or whatever. Yes, there are those who need to be trained in European notions of human rights or equality of the sexes, too. And sometimes just the basics of the law.
Cheers,
Bev


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## ALKB

Bevdeforges said:


> I had heard that there was some move toward a "manual" or training of some variety. In the early days (back during the Bosnian crisis), I think a couple of the states developed a "test" to determine a refugee's state of integration. But the questions were fairly obviously pointed toward certain ethnic groups.
> 
> The tough question is, however, how much of your own culture or self do you have to give up in order to be appropriately "integrated?" When I first arrived in France, I fell in with a group of US expats, a few of whom were "offended" by immigrants continuing to wear their national style of dress. Having just arrived myself, this struck me as weird, because the last thing I wanted to do on arrival in a "foreign" country was to give up all my comfortable clothes to try and dress like a "French woman". Some of the expats were adamant that you "shouldn't" or "musn't" wear sneakers or trainers when walking in Paris - if only because "it labels you as a tourist." However, for those of us who wanted to walk about the city, it seemed just plain stupid to wear high heels for sightseeing. At what point does "dressing like an American tourist" become failure to integrate? And is choosing to wear what you have in your closet and feel comfortable wearing a "refusal" to integrate?
> 
> By and large, we're talking about little stuff - like clothes or food or whatever. Yes, there are those who need to be trained in European notions of human rights or equality of the sexes, too. And sometimes just the basics of the law.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Germany doesn't really have a stellar track record of integrating foreigners.

Then, integration itself is incredibly difficult to define and most probably the answer would be a very locally different one. 

You mentioned going to mass on Sunday. Now, if you were living in the East of Germany, where 95% of the population of your town are likely to identify as atheist, any form of strong religious belief would be regarded as pretty alien (good luck finding a catholic church for attending that mass, too) BUT if you were living in rural Bavaria or Baden Württemberg, then going to mass would possibly help tremendously with your integration into the local community.

Joining the local carnival society in the Rhineland would be a great way to make friends, while trying to do the same thing in Berlin would just make you part of a very specific niche culture.

And so on and so forth.

I noticed that in the 1970s and 80s, Turkish, Italian and Greek guest workers pretty much got the same kind of suspicious looks and prejudice directed towards them. By the 1990s, the Italians and Greeks had seemingly been accepted/integrated/vanished into society (or maybe many had returned home? I don't know.) 

There also was a lot of inter-marriage between Germans and Italians and Greeks but this did not seem to be so much the case with the Turkish and Arabic population who tended to "import" their wives freshly for each generation. So, yes, that culture of arranged marriages with new waves of non-German speaking, possibly headscarf-wearing (visibility) mothers of children who then again didn't speak German when they started school didn't really help with integration, as each generation had to start the process anew.

So... maybe you are really integrated at the point where you don't care whether your children marry somebody indigenous from your new home country or somebody "from back home"? 

Clearly anybody who was skeptical about the government's policy regarding refugees in the first place, now feels validated and/or scared.

About ten years ago, there was a lot of talk about parallel societies in Germany but in the end not much was done about it apart from a lot of talk about "Fördern und Fordern".

I have no idea what will happen long term but it will most probably depend on how exactly Germany decides to deal with the New Year's Eve assaults and other incidents in the next few days and weeks - on all levels of government, federal and local. Elections are coming up...


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## ALKB

Bevdeforges said:


> We've joked about the "users manual" for ages.


Now also in app form!! 

https://www.ankommenapp.de/


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## HKG3

ALKB said:


> Germany doesn't really have a stellar track record of integrating foreigners.


Integration is a two way thing. Not only the host government is willing to do so, but immigrants themselves also need to play their part as well.


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## ALKB

HKG3 said:


> Integration is a two way thing. Not only the host government is willing to do so, but immigrants themselves also need to play their part as well.


I agree.

But until the 1980's - for at least 20 years - the German government refused to acknowledge that the "guest workers" were really immigrants. And I think a lot of first generation guest workers were also thinking that they would return at some point; many don't speak German even after spending their entire adult life in Germany - why learn the language if you intend to return home? 

At first they were only granted one or two-year work permits and it was difficult to get permission to get permits for their families. For a long time, Turkish children were going to school in special Turkish classes, being taught by Turkish teachers.

Then, more and more were granted indefinite leave. But still the government kept saying that guest workers will return home and there was no need to integrate them.

In the 1990s and early 2000s we suddenly woke up to entire areas of big cities being practically entirely Turkish or Arabic and as if that development came out of nowhere we had panicked discussions about parallel societies and dysfunctional schools, lost generations of young migrants who neither spoke German or Turkish well and had little chance to be successful in school and later get a qualified job.

Things are getting a bit better in that regard. We have language classes for children who don't know German. Spouses have to attend integration courses. 

I am very interested and a bit anxious to see how we will deal with a million or more recent migrants.


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