# Renta



## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

For the past 6 years I've used a Gestor to submit my tax declaration, even after we moved I continued to use the same one. She has now informed me that she is no longer in business. 
I've seen here that at least one person has attended the tax office and had them complete the necessaries. 
Could you tell me what paperwork I need for this please?
I don't want to go there with a few figures written on a piece of paper only to be sent away to fetch a particular document and conversely I don't want to take everything I can lay my hands on, only to find that I don't need half of it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It might have been my post you read. Both my husband and myself have made appointments at our local Hacienda office to have them complete our declarations several times. The only documents we have ever taken are our passports, residencia tarjetas, a copy of the most recent IBI bill for our home (which they need for the catastral reference number and details of the percentages owned), and something official from the bank with our account details on it (IBAN number for the direct debit authority, they don't accept you just writing that down yourself). We have literally written down the figures for our annual pension income on a sheet of paper, converted into euros. They don't even want it broken down between separate pension sources, just a total. We show our Crown pensions separately, as renta exenta, and also the figure for interest received on savings accounts. And that is it. No other documents such as P60s, payslips or bank statements have ever been asked for. The first year we went we took the lot, but they were not needed.

If you have sources of income such as rents from property, or investment income, more may be required but I couldn't tell you about that.

We do the returns ourselves now, online, which is even easier, and when you think about it, it is a self declaration system and you don't need to submit any documentary evidence regarding your income when you do the return online, so why should it be any different if you attend the office in person?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Exactly, you only need to prove the figures you enter unless you are investigated, so as long as you can prove everything you tell them you are OK but you don't have to show the the paperwork there and then.

We used to do ours at the office in person, then started doing it online and have done so for years now. Never needed to show any paperwork, but it is worth keeping everything for at least 7 years.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Thanks both. 
You're probably right Lynn, it ws either you or Megsmum that I had in my mind but wasn't sure. 
Next step is to book an appointment then!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

You'll be able to request an appointment from 27 May onwards, and appointments will start from 2 June. Good luck, let us know how you get on.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Overandout said:


> Exactly, you only need to prove the figures you enter unless you are investigated, so as long as you can prove everything you tell them you are OK but you don't have to show the the paperwork there and then.
> 
> We used to do ours at the office in person, then started doing it online and have done so for years now. Never needed to show any paperwork, but it is worth keeping everything for at least 7 years.


Thats right. They will put anything you tell them. But make sure you can backup everything you say. 

For years I lived in a rented house. I did my own renta and nevet realised i could claim for the rent om the house until my. Spanish was good enough to read all the guidance notes. I started to declare the rent and they paid me back without hesitation. Later ibwas asked to prove it and obviously all was in order from my part but the landlord had kept rhr deposit and not deposited it in the correct scheme so that meant i couldn't claim back for rent. I didnt even think twice, when they sent the recorded lettet i got all my documents ready, asked him for that one and he didn't have it

Result was that i had to repay about 600 euros. The hacienda advised i privately claimed against the landlord. We came to an agreement. But the point is that anything you claim, even if it relies on others, make sure it's in order!

Personally, id recomend a gestor to do the renta if you're not strong in Spanish and if you have no knowledge of tax because the tax office won't advise, they will just fill in what you tell them. A gestor will advise on any areas you may be entitled to claim and then make sure everything is right before they claim it. Sometimes paying a few euros can reap benefits!!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Relyat said:


> Thanks both.
> You're probably right Lynn, it ws either you or Megsmum that I had in my mind but wasn't sure.
> Next step is to book an appointment then!


Not me LOL I am tax stupid here just get gestor to do it and keep all my information in office to prove what I've told him to do


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

That's been me up until now too.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I have just received the dreaded Black letter today!!


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Overandout said:


> it is worth keeping everything for at least 7 years.


Agreed however legally 4 years is the limit for the Hacienda to raise queries, that's why many get letters around the 4th anniversary of their first returns, I would guess they have people who randomly scrutinize returns before that time is up and maybe flag current returns for future scrutiny.

Once a query has been raised there is no set time limit on it.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

MataMata said:


> Agreed however legally 4 years is the limit for the Hacienda to raise queries, that's why many get letters around the 4th anniversary of their first returns, I would guess they have people who randomly scrutinize returns before that time is up and maybe flag current returns for future scrutiny.
> 
> Once a query has been raised there is no set time limit on it.


I have just this week received a black letter for 2016 so they can go back more than 4 years!!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Edited due to incorrect info, see below post 13.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry, I need to correct that info.

The prescription of "normal" claims by Hacienda is still 4 years as stated by Matamata.

However in the anti-fraud law of 2013, in which the Modelo 720 was introduced, the 4 year prescription was expressly excluded for purposes of fraud claims.

So, in theory Hacienda can only claim up to 4 years, but if they suspect fraud they can go back as far as they want.

In Kaipa's case, they are not using the fraud argument because for 2016 tax year, the reporting period ended 31st July 2017 which is less than 4 years ago.

In 2013, some lawyers suggested that another limitation of 7 years might be applicable to fraud cases, but recent examples (including the Rey Juan Carlos scandal) has shown that this argument is not working!


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

That could be true. Incidentally I may now have first hand experience of when your tax obligation begins in Spain as my letter in asking me about why I didn't declare in Spain despite my only being for 120 days ( arrived October) and became resident 2017 January!!. Also for anyone who thinks they dont really know of your UK affairs: they had a complete breakdown of all my income, rents, etc stated for 2016. I have 10 days to deal with this so will let you know the outcome as soon as possible


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Rethink in order for me and find another Gestor. Just to be on the safe side.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

We had 2 investigations in connsecutive years, 2015 and 2016. It cost us some fees for translation of documents and written affidavits from our tenant and letting agent to confirm that we let our house to a family and not a business and also that it was long term. The result was that we had nothing extra to pay to Ag Trib but around 300€ for translation services of affidavits and UK self assessments.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

kaipa said:


> Incidentally I may now have first hand experience of when your tax obligation begins in Spain as my letter in asking me about why I didn't declare in Spain despite my only being for 120 days ( arrived October) and became resident 2017 January!!


When you first go on a padron is a prime indicator of when you began living in Spain whether you formalised residency then or not.

I've always had my doubts about the claim that you're only considered resident if you arrive in the latter half of the year so it will be very interesting to see how this one pans out, hopefully not too painful financially  

Could be seriously 'inconvenient' for anybody who relied on that to avoid CGT on the sale of a UK property!

A lot of people who have been here for years on the padron but not doing a tax returns, and only forced to become resident, will very likely be finding 'black letters' landing on their mats at some time in the not too distant future.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Hope I am not straying g off topic but anyone know what the situation is if you return to UK to live but have spent more than 6 months in the Spanish tax year in Spain. Where are you tax resident UK or Spain? For example if I was getting my UK house deeds put solely in my name from my ex who is a Spanish resident, if this was done whilst I was still a Spanish resident there would be tax payable. What happens if deregister residency in Spain during tax year. Am I still treated as a Spanish tax resident or UK?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I think they would look at the whole situation to see what to do. As you know, it is not a simple "number of days" calculation. There are other factors like economic interests.

If for example, you "moved out" of Spain to become a non tax resident, performed an operation which would have been taxable in Spain, then moved back afterwards I think you'd be on thin ice.

When I moved back from Thailand in the month of August however, it was clear that I was moving my centre of economic interest to Spain from that moment (I bought an apartment, registered my kids in school etc.) but the tax company who dealt with the move said that I remained a non tax resident until 3st December that year due to the 183 day rule, and I did indeed continue with the quarterly non-resident declarations until the end of that year.

So far I have not been challenged on that (but maybe the nice letter is about to arrive, it was 2016 when I moved!)


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I guess the safest is to move at beginning of January? How do you deregister in Spain


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

kaipa said:


> How do you deregister in Spain


Notification of change of tax residency is Modelo 030, but you also need to deregister with Extranjería from the Register of EU Citizens, i.e. surrender your green certificate. I did not do that however due to some erroneous advice.
No idea how to do it if you have a TIE.


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