# Pensioners to pay ten percent of the cost of their medicaments



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

News out today about how the social security in Spain will change. It's still being debated, but big changes are underway - things that could really change the way some people see their lives in Spain. If the areas of health and education are important to you and you understand Spanish, I urge you to keep up with the local and national news. The government is announcing/ debating huge cuts in these areas...
Pensioners to pay ten percent of the cost of their medicaments


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2012)

Pesky, this is a major concern. Here in the UK I found some reports about the gov needing and intending to take over the regional govs where necessary and impose changes but I can't find any follow up. It would be very helpful indeed if you or someone else could update on this situation as and when there are developments as changes to health and education are of vital importance to those of us about to embark on the path to Spain. Many if not most in our situation will have some Spanish but not enough to understand a major story like this, nor to appreciate the nuances.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A good way to to follow the news in Spain is to read El Pais in English - you get abridged translations of the main articles from Spain's leading newspaper (though they often don't appear till the following day).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> A good way to to follow the news in Spain is to read El Pais in English - you get abridged translations of the main articles from Spain's leading newspaper (though they often don't appear till the following day).


Yes, I'd agree with that.
So keep a look out all this week for articles about the health cuts, education cuts and YPF oil company in Argentina.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2012)

Thank you! Absolutely what's needed. It's not going to stop us coming to Spain but we need to make a realistic assessment of what to expect and where to change our plans, if necessary.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

meetloaf said:


> Pesky, this is a major concern. Here in the UK I found some reports about the gov needing and intending to take over the regional govs where necessary and impose changes but I can't find any follow up. It would be very helpful indeed if you or someone else could update on this situation as and when there are developments as changes to health and education are of vital importance to those of us about to embark on the path to Spain. Many if not most in our situation will have some Spanish but not enough to understand a major story like this, nor to appreciate the nuances.


I don't quite understand what you mean by 'regional governments' in the UK as there are only Town/Parish, District or County Councils with any legislative/derived powers.
Do you mean the recent proposals to change nationally-agreed levels of public sector pay to levels represntative of local conditions? If so, that is indeed in the pipeline and will be hard-fought by public sector unions.
Changes to Housing Benefit will also reflect local conditions but I have not read of any fixed proposals for implementation of regional levels of HB.

National Government -and the EU - has been encroaching on the powers and functions of local government since the Thatcher era. The taking away of the Non-Domestic Rate from local authorities and collecting and redistributing it nationally was a major step to rendering local government impotent. 

As for charging pensioners....we must remember that not all pensioners are poor, certainlynot in the U.K. OH and I, now having reached pensionable age, are jointly in receipt of incomes from various sources...occupational and other pensions, investments etc. - well above the UK or Spanish national average for a retired or indeed working couple and are totally debt/mortgage free and we have no moral or practical objection to paying an affordable amount towards health care either here or in the U.K. if it would help those less fortunate than we.
I have yet to hear a valid argument supporting universal benefits. We live in 2012 not 1912.

'From each according to his means to each according to his needs'...?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean by 'regional governments' in the UK as there are only Town/Parish, District or County Councils with any legislative/derived powers.


I think the OP is in the UK, trying to find information in English about the proposals for regional governments (autonomous communities) in Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I think the OP is in the UK, trying to find information in English about the proposals for regional governments (autonomous communities) in Spain.


Ah...all is now clear....


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## NotinUse (Oct 3, 2009)

Why am I not surprised, we are being screwed bit by bit every day, that 10% will soon become 15% 
Seems Spain is learning from the UK who stealthily chip away at our freedom and incomes like possessed woodpeckers.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

NotinUse said:


> Why am I not surprised, we are being screwed bit by bit every day, that 10% will soon become 15%
> Seems Spain is learning from the UK who stealthily chip away at our freedom and incomes like possessed woodpeckers.


The last time I was in Australia there was a joke doing the rounds, it went like this:

Q. _How do you know when a British Airways jet has landed at Sydney Airport?_

I don't know, how do you tell when a BA Jet has landed?

A. _Because it goes on whining even when they have switched the engines off!_



says it all really, just glad I live on a rock, high in the mountains away from most of humanity...bliss!


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## NotinUse (Oct 3, 2009)

country boy said:


> The last time I was in Australia there was a joke doing the rounds, it went like this:
> 
> Q. _How do you know when a British Airways jet has landed at Sydney Airport?_
> 
> ...


The last time I was in Australia there was a joke doing the rounds, it went like this:

_There was a big moron and a little moron sitting on a rock_

Q. The big moron fell off. Why?

A. _The little moron was a little more on. _



says it all really, just glad there are plenty of rocks...bliss!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

country boy said:


> The last time I was in Australia there was a joke doing the rounds, it went like this:
> 
> Q. _How do you know when a British Airways jet has landed at Sydney Airport?_
> 
> ...


So - why are you reading this forum which is full of whingeing poms?


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

The Spanish Government passed a law last Thursday which would allow it take over the control of the finances in the regions which fail to stick to the austerity plan. Likely candidates are the PP controlled Valencia and Castilla-La Mancha, and Cataluña as well as Andalucía as being out front with deficit and perhaps Rajoy may even enjoy intervening in Socialist controlled Andalucia.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

It is ridiculous that regardless of wealth you get free prescriptions same with winter fuel allowance and child benefit even though thats changing.

they would be whining aussies (poms) aswell if they had to live in the uk ;-)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NotinUse said:


> Why am I not surprised, we are being screwed bit by bit every day, that 10% will soon become 15%
> Seems Spain is learning from the UK who stealthily chip away at our freedom and incomes like possessed woodpeckers.


'Freedom' is a meaningless concept unless it is described more precisely.
My 'freedom' may lead to your loss of 'freedom'.

There are many freedoms, both 'freedom *to*' and 'freedom *from'*.

If you can afford to pay 10% , 15% or 50% then, if that helps people less well-off, you should.

It's ridiculous that my son and dil, both top earners, were receiving Child Benefit for their two children -helped pay the nanny and au pair, I guess - and under the current regime will receive State Pension at the basic rate, free bus pass etc...
I don't think my dil has used a bus in her life....

As long as there are people in genuine need I am quite happy to pay what I can afford towards health care.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> So - why are you reading this forum which is full of whingeing poms?


Basically, for information, entertainment and being able to offer advice where I can. (Whingeing Poms aside! ).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

country boy said:


> The last time I was in Australia there was a joke doing the rounds, it went like this:
> 
> Q. _How do you know when a British Airways jet has landed at Sydney Airport?_
> 
> ...


More of the same, just in case you missed it the first time round...
I think it would be more worrying if there was no whinging. Whinging is only complaining after all. If we weren't whinging we'd be accepting, and it's a very sorry state of affairs when you accept cuts in the basics of life just because.

I totally agree that cuts have to be made and cuts probably can be made in both the health service and education, but most people agree that cutting personnel is not the way to go about it. It would be nice not to cut anything in these areas, but the times of "fat cows" as the Spanish say are over and the "thin cows" are in the fields now so let's cut the inflated salaries, the subcontracts of the subcontracts, the use of expensive named drugs etc, but enough medical staff to go around, please.


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## NotinUse (Oct 3, 2009)

With 32 Australian soldiers killed and hundreds wounded, the Australian government under mounting pressure has withdrawn it's troops from Afghanistan a year ahead of schedule.

Definition of mounting pressure = Whinging Ozzies


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I read today that the pensioners are to pay for prescriptions, those who earn more pay more those who earn less pay less.

The trouble is to means test pensioners will cost more than what will be eventually recovered in the increased prescription charges................


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I read today that the pensioners are to pay for prescriptions, those who earn more pay more those who earn less pay less.
> 
> The trouble is to means test pensioners will cost more than what will be eventually recovered in the increased prescription charges................


Well the way that they are going to do it apparently is to cross transfer info from the tax offices to check everyone's income and financial situation, so they'll need to set up a whole new system to do that. Maybe they'll be able to employ the teachers and medical staff that they've made redundant in health and education cuts. Also they need to change some confidentiality laws because more people will have access to more info about patients. Then we will all be issued with new health cards that will have a chip on containing all this info or at least telling people in the medical profession which payment band we fall into. The cards we have now are valid for 5/ 10 years? The new cards will only be valid as long as our financial situation continues. If someone loses their job, or if someone gets a job, or someone is off sick for a month or 6 months I presume the card will be changed?
Doesn't sound like a great money saving scheme to me...


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## GallineraGirl (Aug 13, 2011)

If you have a UK State Pension doesn't the UK pay for your healthcare costs? Medicines are free for Pensioners in the U.K, will they still be free here?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> I read today that the pensioners are to pay for prescriptions, those who earn more pay more those who earn less pay less.
> 
> The trouble is to means test pensioners will cost more than what will be eventually recovered in the increased prescription charges................


No, many benefits in the UK are already means-tested. 
We live in an electronic age where such things are not complicated or expensive to set up.


I cannot understand why people who advocate redistribution via the tax system condemn the idea that wealthier retired people should pay more for some basic services than the less well-off. I suspect that self-interest from the well-off retired plays a role here. After all, self-interest is the motor of much opinion, however altruistic we pretend we are. My belief in a redistributive state stems in part from my desire to evade a society riven by envy and violence on the part of the less well-off towards the more fortunate.


I am registered with the Andalucian state health service as is my OH. We use it for minor ailments but pay privately for other treatments. In this way we reduce the burden and expense of the regional health system. Currently we can afford to do so. We think this is fair and just.

Why should a retired British immigrant who can afford to buy a £million+ villa in Spain be entitled to use the local health service free of charge, irrespective of whether the UK Government contributes? Does the principle of fair redistribution apply only to those of working age? Is there no obligation upon the retired rich to share their wealth??

I have yet to see a justification of this.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Why should a retired British immigrant who can afford to buy a £million+ villa in Spain be entitled to use the local health service free of charge, irrespective of whether the UK Government contributes? Does the principle of fair redistribution apply only to those of working age? Is there no obligation upon the retired rich to share their wealth??
> 
> I have yet to see a justification of this.


I'm an advocate of universal benefits, as you know. Anyone who doesn't think it is cost-effective and efficient overall should look at how healthcare works in the USA.

These retired immigrants will have paid taxes all their lives, and will continue to pay taxes on their property, on their pensions and other investment income, plus IVA on everything they buy. Besides, if they are wealthy they will almost certainly have private healthcare insurance rather than queue up at the local consultorio.

Or they might have spent all their money on their property and have a very low income as a result (like me).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

GallineraGirl said:


> If you have a UK State Pension doesn't the UK pay for your healthcare costs? Medicines are free for Pensioners in the U.K, will they still be free here?


No they won't

the UK pays for British pesioners to be treated on an equal footing with Spanish pensioners - so unless they change the 'deal', British pensioners will have to pay, too


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm an advocate of universal benefits, as you know. Anyone who doesn't think it is cost-effective and efficient overall should look at how healthcare works in the USA.
> 
> These retired immigrants will have paid taxes all their lives, and will continue to pay taxes on their property, on their pensions and other investment income, plus IVA on everything they buy. Besides, if they are wealthy they will almost certainly have private healthcare insurance rather than queue up at the local consultorio.
> 
> Or they might have spent all their money on their property and have a very low income as a result (like me).


The way healthcare works in the U.S. is a different model altogether than that of the NHS, though, so no meaningful comparison can be made.
The NHS itself is in need of reform although not in the way this cack-handed Government is intending. I would like to see an insurance-based model on the lines of that in France, Canada and Germany. No system will be perfect -humans aren't capable of perfection! - but efficiency can and should be assessed, reviewed and perhaps changes made in the light of current circumstances and changing needs.

Invoking the cost-efficiency principle is a dangerous one: on that basis, the UK Government is justified in reducing or even abolishing altogether the top tax rate since it is claimed it costs more to collect than it produces in revenue. I suspect that abolishing universal benefits in their entirety may well result in huge cost savings but afaik there are no figures available to prove or disprove this so it's just my opinion, nothing more

There are other principles involved than mere cost-efficiency. Giving these benefits -Child Benefit, Winter Fuel Allowance and so on - to all irrespective of income entirely abnegates basic principles of social justice. It is irrelevant to the argument about universal benefits whether wealthier people are taxed in other ways....it is just and fair that they should. It doesn't rule out additional redistributive measures.
The fact is that we do not know how many well-off people prefer to increase their wealth even more by using state-provided services which they can afford to pay towards on a use basis. We do not know how many wealthier retirees refuse to collect their State Pension or accept free prescription items. 
It seems as if I shall be obliged to undergo perhaps extensive -and expensive - surgery. At this point in time I can afford to pay for it although I am entitled to use the regional free health service. It is my choice, just as you legitimately chose to use your wealth to invest in property. I don't have any property in the form of real estate, thankfully!!

Truly wealthy people -of which there are fewer than is commonly supposed - will, as you say, not use the free services...but they nevertheless have an *entitlement* and in my view it is this *entitlement* which is unfair and is seen as so by many less well-off people, especially in times of crisis.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Discrimination against those that started work at 14 or 15 worked hard for 50 years +, saved for a pension, paid taxes, never been unemployed, apart from 10 years free education, never a burden on the state.

Makes one wonder if it was all worthwhile............


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> Discrimination against those that started work at 14 or 15 worked hard for 50 years +, saved for a pension, paid taxes, never been unemployed, apart from 10 years free education, never a burden on the state.
> 
> Makes one wonder if it was all worthwhile............



Who said anything about that??

If you are less well-off you won't and shouldn't have to pay.

Your argument could be used by billionaires to justify tax avoidance (not evasion). It's a common whinge of the 'squeezed middle' in the UK...and that 'middle' includes people with six-figure salaries.

The fact is that not all pensioners are 'poor', especially those who live in the UK. 
The very fact that one can afford to up sticks and move to Spain upon retirement illustrates a certain level of wealth, surely?

I'm no way 'rich' but all wealth is comparative and as a couple we are certainly very comfortably off compared to many retired people. 
There are retired people literally on the breadline here and those who can afford to pay for health care should do so if only to protect the less well-off from having to do so.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

:focus:

Passing on a debt to society: seniors to be charged for their medicines | In English | EL PAÍS



> Spanish pensioners, who currently do not have to pay for prescription medicines, will be obliged to contribute 10 percent toward them under new Health Ministry guidelines designed to slash seven billion euros from the state’s expenditure on public healthcare. The subsidy will be capped at eight euros per month for retired citizens with income of less than 18,000 euros per year and 18 euros for those that exceed that figure.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> :focus:
> 
> Passing on a debt to society: seniors to be charged for their medicines | In English | EL PAÍS


Scarcely draconian. I've just returned from a MRI scan for which I paid 280 euros. Not exactly megabucks and at this point in time entirely affordable.
Seems fair to me. What would I have spent this non-essential money on otherwise?
Eating out, drinking, clothes, books, travel...
Health is more important.
I've saved the hard-pressed Andalucian health service some money.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Scarcely draconian. I've just returned from a MRI scan for which I paid 280 euros. Not exactly megabucks and at this point in time entirely affordable.
> Seems fair to me. What would I have spent this non-essential money on otherwise?
> Eating out, drinking, clothes, books, travel...
> Health is more important.
> I've saved the hard-pressed Andalucian health service some money.


Very commendable, but your situation is hardly comparable to that of a Spanish pensioner on €630 a month and often supporting unemployed family members whose paro has run out. There are millions of people in that situation and even 8 euros a month makes a difference.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Very commendable, but your situation is hardly comparable to that of a Spanish pensioner on €630 a month and often supporting unemployed family members whose paro has run out. There are millions of people in that situation and even 8 euros a month makes a difference.


Yes, I've pointed that out already. Many times.

And that is why I think those that can should pay more and those that can't should pay nothing.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The article in El País only seems to mention Spanish pensioners. What about British pensioners whose healthcare costs are supposed to be met by the UK DWP?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Scarcely draconian. I've just returned from a MRI scan for which I paid 280 euros. Not exactly megabucks and at this point in time entirely affordable.
> Seems fair to me. What would I have spent this non-essential money on otherwise?
> Eating out, drinking, clothes, books, travel...
> Health is more important.
> I've saved the hard-pressed Andalucian health service some money.


It's great that you're not bleeding the system for all they've got, but of course it might be a different story if this had to be repeated a number of times over a year, or be added on to another treatment that was already going on. Then we might be talking mega bucks. I sincerely hope that that's not the case, Mary.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The article in El País only seems to mention Spanish pensioners. What about British pensioners whose healthcare costs are supposed to be met by the UK DWP?


or pensioners from anywhere with a reciprocal agreement.....

the UK pays for British pensioners to receive healthcare on the same basis as a Spanish pensioner - so they'll either have to change the agreement, or you'll have to pay too, I guess


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> The article in El País only seems to mention Spanish pensioners. What about British pensioners whose healthcare costs are supposed to be met by the UK DWP?


They'd be in the same situation as the spanish pensioner , I would think. The rules are 'same conditions as the spanish citizen '.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's great that you're not bleeding the system for all they've got, but of course it might be a different story if this had to be repeated a number of times over a year, or be added on to another treatment that was already going on. Then we might be talking mega bucks. I sincerely hope that that's not the case, Mary.



If I need any treatment arising from the scan and I can afford to pay, I will.
I think the regional health service is excellent and I've used it for minor things. 

If I need hospitalisation it could be a problem as I'm not that well-off. I'll cross that bridge if I come to it...

I just don't see why anyone could object to anyone with a post-tax income of say 2k euros a month and above and no liabilities paying a percentage of healthcare costs so as to remove the necessity of paying from the less well-off.

The fact is that as the population ages and becomes more demanding, as lifestyle choices such as smoking, drinking and eating excessively and the rising cost of technological advance in health care involve huge costs way beyond that raised from general taxation we must expect to pay towards our healthcare.

What's more important: good health and first-class medical treatment or a new car?

People of my generation grew up with a sense that it was the duty of the state to provide welfare 'from cradle to grave', as the saying went. That was understandable, after a dreadful war and memories of the economic hard times preceding it. But we are living in 2012 not 1945. Even Bevan, the architect of the NHS, was forced to introduce prescription charges shortly after its inception.

I do believe the state has a major role to play in setting guidelines and high minimum standards for education, healthcare etc. But certainly with healthcare, I believe the time has come to take on more personal responsibility for our well-being.
As I am a firm believer in redistribution, I believe those who can afford to pay, should, to ease the burden on those who can't.

That sounds suspiciously like socialism...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The article in El País only seems to mention Spanish pensioners. What about British pensioners whose healthcare costs are supposed to be met by the UK DWP?



Since EU rules forbid discrimination regarding benefits to EU state nationals, British and other pensioners will have to pay too.

But I foresee vast organisational problems here. 

How can the income of a British pensioner be reliably ascertained by the regional health authorities here? Yes, I know we fill in the required tax forms....But what if like us you have assets in UK and off-shore banks? What if you have substantial capital but because of current low interest rates receive a low income from it? What if you decide to 'hide' these assets?

Honest Brits and others will declare all their income and assets if required.
I've seen enough of a significant minority immigrant culture here to know that many won't.


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## dream on (Sep 26, 2010)

As a uk pensioner who moved to Spain because I could no longer afford to live in the uk, I'm certainly not wealthy! My income is little more than a Spanish oap by all accounts but I can survive here on less than I can in the uk. Regarding healthcare, I thought being in receipt of the uk o.a. pension although under 65 (I am female and retired at 60), I would get free prescriptions but on presenting my tarjeta sanateria at the farmacia, I was charged 3.20. Not a fortune admittedly, but is this correct?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

dream on said:


> As a uk pensioner who moved to Spain because I could no longer afford to live in the uk, I'm certainly not wealthy! My income is little more than a Spanish oap by all accounts but I can survive here on less than I can in the uk. Regarding healthcare, I thought being in receipt of the uk o.a. pension although under 65 (I am female and retired at 60), I would get free prescriptions but on presenting my tarjeta sanateria at the farmacia, I was charged 3.20. Not a fortune admittedly, but is this correct?


Did you have a prescription from the doctor ?


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

dream on said:


> As a uk pensioner who moved to Spain because I could no longer afford to live in the uk, I'm certainly not wealthy! My income is little more than a Spanish oap by all accounts but I can survive here on less than I can in the uk. Regarding healthcare, I thought being in receipt of the uk o.a. pension although under 65 (I am female and retired at 60), I would get free prescriptions but on presenting my tarjeta sanateria at the farmacia, I was charged 3.20. Not a fortune admittedly, but is this correct?


As Gus asked, did you have a prescription written by your doctor in Spain?
Also, was it a print-out or hand written?
If so, it could be a genuine mistake made by the farmacia.

I'm not sure about this, as I am not of pension age, but I'm wondering whether, as the retirement age for both men and women in Spain is 65, whether you were actually classed as a' pensionista' when picking up the prescription. 
(and yes, I know that, with a UK state pension (and an S1 to back it up) you are considered a pensionista as regards receiving state health care, but, as I said, I am not at all sure how the age rule might be applied to prescriptions - so if someone wants to step in about this... ).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

In Andalucia it's free at age 60.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dream on said:


> As a uk pensioner who moved to Spain because I could no longer afford to live in the uk, I'm certainly not wealthy! My income is little more than a Spanish oap by all accounts but I can survive here on less than I can in the uk. Regarding healthcare, I thought being in receipt of the uk o.a. pension although under 65 (I am female and retired at 60), I would get free prescriptions but on presenting my tarjeta sanateria at the farmacia, I was charged 3.20. Not a fortune admittedly, but is this correct?


maybe it's the 10% charge?


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> maybe it's the 10% charge?


I think it sounds more like they hadn't got a prescription from a doctor. Before electronic prescriptions, you could tell by the colour of the prescription if it was pensionista (red) or not (green), now, however, you don't actually get a paper prescription, at least here in Galicia. You still have to go to the doctor to obtain the prescrition, and if you require repeat prescriptions, they can issue them for several months. You then take your card to the chemist's and they will tell you when you can obtain the repeats.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> In Andalucia it's free at age 60.


Even for people who have not retired? Or only for pensioners?


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## morlandg (Jun 8, 2008)

anles said:


> I think it sounds more like they hadn't got a prescription from a doctor. Before electronic prescriptions, you could tell by the colour of the prescription if it was pensionista (red) or not (green), now, however, you don't actually get a paper prescription, at least here in Galicia. You still have to go to the doctor to obtain the prescrition, and if you require repeat prescriptions, they can issue them for several months. You then take your card to the chemist's and they will tell you when you can obtain the repeats.


Our english speaking pharmacist told us that he could tell us what medicines were included on the electronic prescription but NOT when they would be available.
This makes life rather awkward for us. We live in the campo and have to travel 30 mins to get to the pharmacist. Unless we made a note of the day that our doctor started the prescription then we don't have a baseline from which to work.
The other question is - are the repeat prescriptions available every 4 weeks or every calendar month? We will have to make another appt with the doctor simply to ask him this question - and adjust my wife's prescription ( he instructed her to take one of her tablets twice a day but only prescribed one box of 28 tablets).
Again you can see that the 4 weeks prescriptions would 'fit' the boxed supply better but how can we balance this prescription - three half tablets per day?


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## dream on (Sep 26, 2010)

Hallo again!
Come to think of it the doc. just entered the details of the medicine on the tarjeta but didn't give me a prescription.
It's strange because my husband who is disabled but younger than me, had a bag full of medicines a few weeks ago and wasn't charged, and I was under the impression that he was classed as my dependant. And no, we are not euro-spongers! We both worked all our lives and paid our taxes. I just don't want any problems should I have any serious health problems in the future.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The press release that started this thread said that _everyone_ legally resident in Spain will have to pay between 10% and 60% of the cost of prescriptions, depending on their income. 

Pensioners will pay 10% of the costs, up to a maximum of €8 a month if their income is below €18,000 a year, or €18 a month otherwise.

I don't know when this comes into effect though.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The press release that started this thread said that _everyone_ legally resident in Spain will have to pay between 10% and 60% of the cost of prescriptions, depending on their income.
> 
> Pensioners will pay 10% of the costs, up to a maximum of €8 a month if their income is below €18,000 a year, or €18 a month otherwise.
> 
> I don't know when this comes into effect though.


exactly........ that's why I wondered if it was maybe the 10% - maybe it has started already?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> exactly........ that's why I wondered if it was maybe the 10% - maybe it has started already?


It hasn't in Andalucia ...


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

dream on said:


> Hallo again!
> Come to think of it the doc. just entered the details of the medicine on the tarjeta but didn't give me a prescription.


Yes, I asked because my husband is always asked if he wants a print out (and as he likes to research his prescriptions, he always wants one  ).
But I remember when my husband became a pensioner he was no longer my dependent (I'm autonomo) and he had to go through the process of applying for a new health card. At that point, he was given hand written prescriptions while waiting for the new card, and even though he was entitled to free prescriptions at that time, he always had to pay.
But we never queried this as the amount wasn't much anyway (would have if it had been expensive though ).


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It hasn't in Andalucia ...


I'm not old enough to know..............


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I'm not old enough to know..............


I passed that particular milestone last week ... so I'll find out next time I need a prescription! :couch2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I passed that particular milestone last week ... so I'll find out next time I need a prescription! :couch2:












feliz cumpleaños amigamía


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

anles said:


> I think it sounds more like they hadn't got a prescription from a doctor. Before electronic prescriptions, you could tell by the colour of the prescription if it was pensionista (red) or not (green), now, however, you don't actually get a paper prescription, at least here in Galicia. You still have to go to the doctor to obtain the prescrition, and if you require repeat prescriptions, they can issue them for several months. You then take your card to the chemist's and they will tell you when you can obtain the repeats.


We've only recently got computers in our consultorios. until last year they were still hand written ; at least now printed , they are readable. We have no connection between the consultorios , the centro de salud or hospital. Tests , scans etc; result in a hand written paper to be taken to the C de Salud for making an appointment. There's no connection to the farmácias , neither is there a 'chip' in the cards !
We do have water & electricity though !


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> We've only recently got computers in our consultorios. until last year they were still hand written ; at least now printed , they are readable. We have no connection between the consultorios , the centro de salud or hospital. Tests , scans etc; result in a hand written paper to be taken to the C de Salud for making an appointment. There's no connection to the farmácias , neither is there a 'chip' in the cards !
> We do have water & electricity though !


Well, you are luckier than us then.
The water here is turned off at the drop of a hat and we have daily electricity outages. 

But what you say about making appointments reminded me of something.
Our village surgery has all mod cons (surprisingly as it's a smallish village) and the doctor can connect directly via computer to any health department .
But she does not make appointments.

When I had a few broken bones healing this time last year, the doctor recommended my follow up appointments at the hospital, but then printed out a form for me to take there, so I could queue up and make the appointment which I would then have to return for.
It was a bit inconvenient as I was on crutches and the queues were long, but it seemed that everyone else was in the same boat, so I guess that's the way it is done in our area.:confused2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> Even for people who have not retired? Or only for pensioners?


Sorry, I should have qualified that....for pensionistas.

Our village has a consultorio...I've had an early appointment there -8.15 a.m. - been sent straight away to Estepona for an XRay, then been back at the consultorio by 10.30 a.m. with the XRay in my hot little hand to show it to the doctor then out of the next-door farmacia with my prescription and home for coffee by 11.00 a.m.

Superb, warm, friendly efficient service for which I have no objection to paying 10% or more as long as I can afford to do so.

People below a certain income shouldn't pay anything imo.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> Well, you are luckier than us then.
> The water here is turned off at the drop of a hat and we have daily electricity outages.
> 
> But what you say about making appointments reminded me of something.
> ...


You're in Andalucia though - don't you use the online booking service? I can usually get an appointment the same day.

https://ws003.juntadeandalucia.es/pls/intersas/servicios.tramite_enlinea_citamedico


EDIT - ignore me, I thought you were talking about doctor's appointments, not referrals. Doh!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> You're in Andalucia though - don't you use the online booking service? I can usually get an appointment the same day.
> 
> https://ws003.juntadeandalucia.es/pls/intersas/servicios.tramite_enlinea_citamedico
> 
> ...


No problema 
I should have said referrals rather than appointments.

But as for appointments, if we want to see our village doctor, we just go into reception, tell everyone else waiting there that we are there to see the doctor and they tell us who is in front of us!
Same day service, lol!
Even with follow up appointments we are told simply to come along on a certain day. That's all.

Never tried the online booking service, but I can see it would be useful if we wanted to see a doctor at the larger health centre in the next village (as we would need to go there if we wanted to see a doctor on a day or time when ours isn't available). So thanks.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

SWMBO is often using the telephone booking service to make appointments for her many Brit clients since by making the appointment herself she can get it for when she is available to translate. She can also make appts at a number of different surgeries in the same call.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> SWMBO is often using the telephone booking service to make appointments for her many Brit clients since by making the appointment herself she can get it for when she is available to translate. She can also make appts at a number of different surgeries in the same call.


This is fine if you can call the medical centre directly on a conventional landline number, but here in my town it's very difficult to get an answer at certain times, either the line is constantly engaged or it just rings out as the receptionists are attending to the people in the queue. However, if the number you use is the 902 number, costs are much higher. I get free calls to all national landline numbers with my internet package but I have to pay for calls to 901 and 902 numbers. If you make the appointments over the internet, you can choose a suitable time according to the kind of appointment, whether they are for prescriptions or for consultation.


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## mags&woody (Jul 31, 2008)

*pensioners to pay*



Pesky Wesky said:


> News out today about how the social security in Spain will change. It's still being debated, but big changes are underway - things that could really change the way some people see their lives in Spain. If the areas of health and education are important to you and you understand Spanish, I urge you to keep up with the local and national news. The government is announcing/ debating huge cuts in these areas...
> Pensioners to pay ten percent of the cost of their medicaments


Hi I am a pensioner and have been receiving free perscriptions. I went on Saturday to collect one of my medicines and was told that I now have to pay 1 euro tax which I did, as I needed extra (becuse I was going away) I had to pay full price for second and it cost me 3.euros 15 not 10%. does this help?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mags&woody said:


> Hi I am a pensioner and have been receiving free perscriptions. I went on Saturday to collect one of my medicines and was told that I now have to pay 1 euro tax which I did, as I needed extra (becuse I was going away) I had to pay full price for second and it cost me 3.euros 15 not 10%. does this help?


The 1€ was probably the "10%" but since you wanted an additional one, this would not have been "on the prescription", i.e. you were buying it over the counter, (medications here are much cheaper than in UK, in part because you are getting the generics so you aren't feeding loadsa money to the pharmaceutical companies) since it wasn't due.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I am curious how and when they will check pensioners' incomes to decide whether they are eligible for the €8 a month cap.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The 8 euro cap is daft.
Many pensioners can afford more and many can't afford even that.
Few immigrants over the age of sixty are reliant on the basic UK pension or what's left of SERPS. Most have their income supplemented with private pensions or occupational pensions.
From what I have seen in our village, few Spanish pensionistas are that well off and I am perfectly happy as long as I am able to pay more so they may pay less...or nothing at all.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The 8 euro cap is daft.
> Many pensioners can afford more and many can't afford even that.
> Few immigrants over the age of sixty are reliant on the basic UK pension or what's left of SERPS. Most have their income supplemented with private pensions or occupational pensions.
> From what I have seen in our village, few Spanish pensionistas are that well off and I am perfectly happy as long as I am able to pay more so they may pay less...or nothing at all.


it's means tested though - the more well off will pay more, I can't remember the exact figures


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> it's means tested though - the more well off will pay more, I can't remember the exact figures


As they should. But surely those below a certain income should pay nothing at all...that seems to me to be extremely unfair.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2012)

In Colombia, they have estractos...0-6. Those in 6....pay the highest for everything...IMHO .this works really well for places that have a lot of informal business...I live in 5...so 6 helps me...and I help 4 and below.


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## mags&woody (Jul 31, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The 1€ was probably the "10%" but since you wanted an additional one, this would not have been "on the prescription", i.e. you were buying it over the counter, (medications here are much cheaper than in UK, in part because you are getting the generics so you aren't feeding loadsa money to the pharmaceutical companies) since it wasn't due.


I agree but the point I was making (not very clear) was that I paid 1euro tax on medication that costs euros 3 .15 my maths may be wrong but that is more than 10%:confused2:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's a link to the new public health law, comes into effect on 1 July.
La Moncloa. Referencia del Consejo de Ministros [Consejo de Ministros/Referencias]

The long-term unemployed will get free prescriptions (this is new).

Pensioners whose income is below the level for tax declaration (83% of them) will get a cap of €8. Those on higher incomes get a cap of €18.

If your income is over €100,000, pensioner or not, you pay 60% of the cost.

Common drugs like paracetamol will no longer be available on prescription (this was announced today).


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mags&woody said:


> I agree but the point I was making (not very clear) was that I paid 1euro tax on medication that costs euros 3 .15 my maths may be wrong but that is more than 10%:confused2:


Do you live in Cataluña? It was on the news the other day that they have implemented a cost of 1€ charge on each prescription. It's a flat charge per prescription rather than a percentage of the cost.


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## mags&woody (Jul 31, 2008)

anles said:


> Do you live in Cataluña? It was on the news the other day that they have implemented a cost of 1€ charge on each prescription. It's a flat charge per prescription rather than a percentage of the cost.


Yes I do live in Cataluna, but I didnt know there was a difference sorry


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mags&woody said:


> Yes I do live in Cataluna, but I didnt know there was a difference sorry


In most regions they are going to introduce the 10% charge but as health is covered by the regional government it's not the same case in each area. Cataluña is the first to implement a charge and they have opted for a flat charge. It's not only as a means to get extra revenue but also to discourage people abusing the system. A huge proportion of the money spent on health cover goes on medicines and there is still a lot that can be done to reduce this cost, although the last few years they have been taking many positive steps in this direction.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> In most regions they are going to introduce the 10% charge but as health is covered by the regional government it's not the same case in each area. Cataluña is the first to implement a charge and they have opted for a flat charge. It's not only as a means to get extra revenue but also to discourage people abusing the system. A huge proportion of the money spent on health cover goes on medicines and there is still a lot that can be done to reduce this cost, although the last few years they have been taking many positive steps in this direction.


I heard on the news yesterday that this new charge will be implemented on July 2nd 2012, so no different charging on prescriptions should have taken place before then.
It also said that Catalonia has decided to wait three more months before putting this into operation as they are not ready yet.
The information below is from the soc. sec. page of Salud Madrid
Ciudadanos - madrid.org - PortalSalud
_Con motivo de la reciente publicación del RDL 16/2012, la aportación de los usuarios en el pago de los medicamentos prescritos con receta médica se ha modificado. _
_ En esta página podrá consultar el porcentaje que le corresponde abonar en función de su condición (activo o pensionista) y de su nivel de renta.

Dispone también de una sección de _ _*preguntas frecuentes* en la que podrá dar respuesta a aquellas dudas que le surjan relacionadas con esta nueva regulación de la prestación farmacéutica.

El nuevo modelo de aportación de los usuarios se hará efectivo el _ _1 de julio de 2012. 

_And how this will be applied according to your economic level. _ Con motivo de la reciente publicación del RDL 16/2012, *la aportación que le corresponde abonar por los medicamentos con receta, ha variado según su nivel de renta*. 

Por ello, próximamente también se incluirá en la receta del Sistema Nacional de Salud su aportación particular, siguiendo el siguiente esquema: _ 


_Cuando su nivel de renta sea superior a 100.000 €, aportará un *60% sobre el PVP*.

_
_Cuando su nivel de renta esté entre 18.000 € y 100.000 €, aportará un *50% sobre el PVP*.

_
_Cuando su nivel de renta sea inferior a 18.000 €, aportará un *40% sobre el PVP*.

_
_Los pensionistas, en el momento de la dispensación, tendrán que abonar un 10% del PVP del medicamento o producto sanitario (salvo que su renta anual sea superior a 100.000 €). Se establece además un límite máximo mensual en función de la renta (cuantía máxima que abonará mensualmente el paciente).

_
_Cuando la renta sea inferior a 18.000 €, el límite máximo mensual será de 8 €._
_Cuando la renta sea mayor o igual a 18.000 € e inferior a 100.000 €, el límite máximo mensual será de 18 €._
_Los pensionistas cuya renta sea mayor o igual a 100.000 €, abonarán un 60% del PVP con límite máximo mensual de 60 €._
 _*Todo lo que haya abonado extra, es decir, por encima del tope, será reembolsado oportunamente.*_

_ En el caso de los medicamentos de *aportación reducida* (muchos de ellos se utilizan en tratamientos crónicos) la aportación será de un 10% del PVP con un tope máximo de 4,13 € que variará o se actualizará anualmente.

Si usted pertenece a algún colectivo especial, como afectado por el síndrome tóxico y otros supuestos especificados en la ley, estará exento de aportación._


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

yes, I've been meaning to mention that there are posters in the medical centre & the farmacias about this, & the pharmacist mentioned yesterday that my dd's medicine will cost me more than 30c next time!!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

I've read somewhere else that in order to determine how much a person will pay for prescriptions, there will be liaison with the Hacienda.
So all of this will be irrelevant unless, as well as being a resident with a green form or card, you are also a fiscal resident of Spain.

(I know that everyone who has lived here for more than 6 months should be, but I would also guess that there are many who are not).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> I've read somewhere else that in order to determine how much a person will pay for prescriptions, there will be liaison with the Hacienda.
> So all of this will be irrelevant unless, as well as being a resident with a green form or card, you are also a fiscal resident of Spain.
> 
> (I know that everyone who has lived here for more than 6 months should be, but I would also guess that there are many who are not).


The government itself knows just what a high number of people in Spain are not paying their full whack of tax, or even who are not paying *any* tax, so it seems that this system is unworkable right fom the start.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> I've read somewhere else that in order to determine how much a person will pay for prescriptions, there will be liaison with the Hacienda.
> So all of this will be irrelevant unless, as well as being a resident with a green form or card, you are also a fiscal resident of Spain.
> 
> (I know that everyone who has lived here for more than 6 months should be, but I would also guess that there are many who are not).


Then they won't be eligible for Spanish health care, surely? 
Some medicines are much cheaper here than in the UK. I ran out of the 600 mg Ibruprofen I have used whilst the pain from my smashed ribs has been severe. The cost: 1.79 euros.
I haven't bothered to make appointments at my local Consultorio but if I had presumably I would have been given a free prescription for the Ibruprofen.

For less than 2 euros .........


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Then they won't be eligible for Spanish health care, surely?
> Some medicines are much cheaper here than in the UK. I ran out of the 600 mg Ibruprofen I have used whilst the pain from my smashed ribs has been severe. The cost: 1.79 euros.
> I haven't bothered to make appointments at my local Consultorio but if I had presumably I would have been given a free prescription for the Ibruprofen.
> 
> For less than 2 euros .........


But in Uk you'd pay £7.65 for a packet of paracetamol on prescription, that you'd pay only £1.25 for over the counter.

BTW it's not *some* medicines in Spain are cheaper, most are!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The government itself knows just what a high number of people in Spain are not paying their full whack of tax, or even who are not paying *any* tax, so it seems that this system is unworkable right fom the start.


I think that, along with trying to get a few more euros from those who use the state health service, this is the Government's way of getting a few more people to declare themselves and pay their taxes.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> I think that, along with trying to get a few more euros from those who use the state health service, this is the Government's way of getting a few more people to declare themselves and pay their taxes.


I think you might be right

there has been an incredible rush of people on a local fb group wanting to know about registering as resident & how & where to get a SIP - so maybe it's working.....


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Then they won't be eligible for Spanish health care, surely?


The system for applying for a medical card (at least in our area anyway) is to go along to the local health centre, with your residencia cert, your padron cert, and, if you are covered for payments by the UK, your S1.
Nothing about being registered at the hacienda.



mrypg9 said:


> Some medicines are much cheaper here than in the UK. I ran out of the 600 mg Ibruprofen I have used whilst the pain from my smashed ribs has been severe. The cost: 1.79 euros.
> I haven't bothered to make appointments at my local Consultorio but if I had presumably I would have been given a free prescription for the Ibruprofen.
> 
> For less than 2 euros .........


I agree that there are many medicines which are cheaper in Spain than in the UK (although, with Ibuprofen and Paracetamol there is little difference).

But... if a pensioner needs regular medication and it is of the expensive kind, then this will affect them.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I think you might be right
> 
> there has been an incredible rush of people on a local fb group wanting to know about registering as resident & how & where to get a SIP - so maybe it's working.....


Well, I hope it does, but I was thinking more of the Spanish tax dodgers who have been doing it for a life time. There needs to be another kind of amnesty like there was under the socialist govenment, but wasn't too successful I think


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I hope it does, but I was thinking more of the Spanish tax dodgers who have been doing it for a life time. There needs to be another kind of amnesty like there was under the socialist govenment, but wasn't too successful I think


Sounds like a good plan.
Hope someone who could put this into action is reading this.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> The system for applying for a medical card (at least in our area anyway) is to go along to the local health centre, with your residencia cert, your padron cert, and, if you are covered for payments by the UK, your S1.
> Nothing about being registered at the hacienda.
> 
> 
> ...


The poorest will pay 8 euros. But as I have said, imo those on the lowest incomes, say those with an income under 1000 euros per month, should pay nothing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Sounds like a good plan.
> Hope someone who could put this into action is reading this.


Expats Forum is the required breakfast reading of every member of Rajoy's cabinet...


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> The poorest will pay 8 euros. But as I have said, imo those on the lowest incomes, say those with an income under 1000 euros per month, should pay nothing.


Agreed.
But my argument was that many of the poorest members of the population (Spanish nationals and immigrants) are not actually registered to pay tax, so they will not be able to prove this.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Agreed.
> But my argument was that many of the poorest members of the population (Spanish nationals and immigrants) are not actually registered to pay tax, so they will not be able to prove this.


Presumably because their incomes are below the tax threshold....They must have some documentation that proves their exemption, surely?

Unless they are here illegally or working illegally, of course. If you have never been 'legal' and paid into the system, it's not surprising that you can't 'take'.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Presumably because their incomes are below the tax threshold....They must have some documentation that proves their exemption, surely?
> 
> Unless they are here illegally or working illegally, of course. If you have never been 'legal' and paid into the system, it's not surprising that you can't 'take'.


Agree in principle.
But we all know that it isn't that simple.

On this forum alone, we can find many instances of people working for an employer who refuses to register them as legal employees. Most have little choice but to carry on working this way.
As has been said before, when you need the wages to keep your family fed and sheltered, principles about being legal are not your first concern.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Agree in principle.
> But we all know that it isn't that simple.
> 
> On this forum alone, we can find many instances of people working for an employer who refuses to register them as legal employees. Most have little choice but to carry on working this way.
> As has been said before, when you need the wages to keep your family fed and sheltered, principles about being legal are not your first concern.


Well, I agree with some of that. I have been forced to change my views on some issues in face of the weight of the evidence.

But what is the answer to this dilemma? No way can any social welfare system in any country, however rich, simply hand out benefits in any form simply on demand.

Are you suggesting it should?


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But what is the answer to this dilemma? No way can any social welfare system in any country, however rich, simply hand out benefits in any form simply on demand.
> 
> Are you suggesting it should?


No I'm not 
Although in an ideal World it would be great if anyone, anywhere could receive excellent, free health care on demand, as a realist I know this isn't possible.

My comments all along on this thread (I think... it's getting a bit long...) have been that I think this Government is trying to do more things with these changes than immediately meet the eye, in that they are bringing into the mix ways to get more people registered for tax.

As this is going to open and upend a whole can of worms, i see problems ahead.
But that seems nothing new in the way this Government is handling (or trying to handle) La Crisis.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I heard on the news yesterday that this new charge will be implemented on July 2nd 2012, so no different charging on prescriptions should have taken place before then.
> It also said that Catalonia has decided to wait three more months before putting this into operation as they are not ready yet.
> The information below is from the soc. sec. page of Salud Madrid
> Ciudadanos - madrid.org - PortalSalud
> ...


I was talking about the extra euro people pay in Cataluña per prescription which was put into practise last week, not the 10% copago for pensioners. I don't know if Cataluña is the only region to implant this system, it's the only one I have heard about on the news.
En Cataluña ya se paga un euro por cada receta médica
26 junio 2012
En Cataluña ya se paga un euro por cada receta médica

Cataluña aplica desde el pasado sábado, 23 de junio, una tasa de un euro por cada receta médica presentada en el CatSalut, el Servicio Catalán de Salud.

Cataluña cobra desde el pasado sábado, 23 de junio, una tasa de un euro por cada receta médica o producto sanitario presentado al CatSalut, el Servicio Catalán de Salud, aunque, pese a ello, no se descartan nuevos copagos de productos farmacéuticos.

Se trata de una tasa administrativa dispuesta en la Ley 5/2012, de 20 de marzo (Ley 5/2012, de 20 de marzo, de medidas fiscales, financieras y administrativas y de creación del Impuesto sobre las Estancias en Establecimientos Turísticos) que deben pagar los ciudadanos en las farmacias por cada receta.

La medida ha suscitado polémica en Cataluña. Aunque afecta a toda la población en mayor o menor medida, algunos colectivos están exentos del pago. A continuación aclaramos algunas cuestiones relativas a esta iniciativa:


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