# What is good and bad about portugal



## sharky

Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with some things in Portugal. The way government offices are run, the fact that half the businesses close at lunchtime and many other gripes. The way some Portuguese see expat residents as cash cows etc.. 
Am I alone in feeling this way?


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## silvers

No you're not which is why I donate much of my time to helping current and future expats from making the same mistakes as me. I have now compiled an extensive list of contacts who I know can be trusted not to rip people off. I make no money from any recommendations.
Businesses closing at lunch, I can deal with, the Government is what it is, there's nothing you can do about it, let it go.


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## canoeman

sharky said:


> Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with some things in Portugal. The way government offices are run, the fact that half the businesses close at lunchtime and many other gripes. The way some Portuguese see expat residents as cash cows etc..
> Am I alone in feeling this way?


Yes in the main


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi Sharky

Most people who take part on the Forums who live in Portugal Know and understand what life is like here in Portugal. Personally i came here knowing from what i have read over the years what t expect. 

Enjoy Portugal for what it is as it won't change in the near future.

Peter


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## omostra06

Having run companies in portugal, i can say that the government and its many departments do like you to jump through hoops! most of which are of no benifit to anyone and in a lot of ways harm the business and the customers, making it harder to start and operate a business in portugal, compared to other european countries.

having said that, if your brave/daft enough to start a business and employ people in portugal, then you do need to learn to go with the flow.

its not going to change, its unlikely to start encouraging entrepreneurism buy making it easier to start a business, and take on staff.

equally, building and restoring property, could also drive a sane person crazy, I know!!


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## robc

sharky said:


> Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with some things in Portugal. The way government offices are run, the fact that half the businesses close at lunchtime and many other gripes. The way some Portuguese see expat residents as cash cows etc..
> Am I alone in feeling this way?


Come and try a few months in the UK..................that should sort you out.

You think it is bad in Portugal.....try the UK. Everything is going up in price, Govt offices are not closing at lunchtimes, mainly because they have all been shutdown and centralised. It is apparently acceptable for some Govt. dept.s to take up to 77 days to respond to a letter. 

The health service is a mess, I know as my Father in Law has just been discharged after major stomach surgery, he was given a bag of tablets, a quick explanation (to a deaf 86 year old !!!!!) and sent on his way. No one but no one bothered to ask how he was going to fend for himself.

We are relocating to Portugal...................it cannot come soon enough.

Rob


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## jojo

robc said:


> Come and try a few months in the UK..................that should sort you out.
> 
> You think it is bad in Portugal.....try the UK. Everything is going up in price, Govt offices are not closing at lunchtimes, mainly because they have all been shutdown and centralised. It is apparently acceptable for some Govt. dept.s to take up to 77 days to respond to a letter.
> 
> The health service is a mess, I know as my Father in Law has just been discharged after major stomach surgery, he was given a bag of tablets, a quick explanation (to a deaf 86 year old !!!!!) and sent on his way. No one but no one bothered to ask how he was going to fend for himself.
> 
> We are relocating to Portugal...................it cannot come soon enough.
> 
> Rob


I'm not sure its quite that bad!! But I understand what you're saying!

Jo xxx


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## robc

jojo said:


> I'm not sure its quite that bad!! But I understand what you're saying!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hmmm I have to disagree Jo..............we have had a lovely summer of Riots, phone hacking, slavery just this week, it really is quite unpleasant in parts.
I think the greatest issue is that whilst all this is going on the Politicians just sit there wringing their hands and doing nothing.

The LibDems were calling for (along with many others) for a harsh sentencing programme for Looters and Rioters..................so they got what they want and now they are moaning about it, meanwhile the Human Rights Lawyers are queuing up for the compensation Gravy Train. 

I think a few months here would be enough to cure anyone


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## AustinTX

Can you give examples of how Portuguese see expats as cash cows? I'm a soon-to-be expat and have no idea what you're talking about.


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## jojo

robc said:


> Hmmm I have to disagree Jo..............we have had a lovely summer of Riots, phone hacking, slavery just this week, it really is quite unpleasant in parts.
> I think the greatest issue is that whilst all this is going on the Politicians just sit there wringing their hands and doing nothing.
> 
> The LibDems were calling for (along with many others) for a harsh sentencing programme for Looters and Rioters..................so they got what they want and now they are moaning about it, meanwhile the Human Rights Lawyers are queuing up for the compensation Gravy Train.
> 
> I think a few months here would be enough to cure anyone


I'm in the UK at the moment, I have a house here. I dont know how things are in Portugal, but in Spain there are just as many corrupt politicians (probably more and at lower levels of government)a very healthy black market, there are riots, but the police have guns, the paperwork in spain is mindblowing and complicated and as part of the EU, there is just as much PC and strange rules and regs. I suspect Portugal isnt much different 

My point is, by all means leave the UK to go to another country, but dont do it cos you think life is easier! "The grass is always greener, but it still needs mowing!"

Jo xxx


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## jojo

AustinTX said:


> Can you give examples of how Portuguese see expats as cash cows? I'm a soon-to-be expat and have no idea what you're talking about.


I guess what is meant is that ther Portugese see expats as having lots of money and possibly a little gullible, so they can "help" them......... for a fee!!!! 

I'm not agreeing, I dont know, but thats what I think is meant!

Jo xxx


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## silvers

It's more like you try to employ someone to do a job, no matter how big or small, and as soon as they realise you are not Portuguese, the price rises.


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## canoeman

AustinTX said:


> Can you give examples of how Portuguese see expats as cash cows? I'm a soon-to-be expat and have no idea what you're talking about.


Like anywhere there will always be people who will try to take advantage of a newcomer, it's not just the Portuguese either, just think would I accept this in the US, don't accept the first price ask around for recommendations and build a network of people. I've found more honest than dishonest


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## Coaster19

Im British living with my Portuese wife in the UK, and she warns me of exactly the same when we are in portugal SHUT UP I'LL DO THE TALKING BECAUSE IF THEY KNOW YOUR ENGLISH YOU WILL BE CHARGED DOUBLE ! and its true!
The portugeuse see English Holiday makers as easy targets as they think we have the money we spend over there 365 days a year, they dont see that most of us save hard all year for a holiday.
Saying that I love Portugal and the People are so laid back with no worries shame the UK cant follow suit instead of all the hasssle , riots and fighting


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## notlongnow

Nowhere is a utopia, but on balance I would far rather be here than in the UK. 

The number one, make-me-want-to-scream-with-frustration thing here is the red tape and dealings with the camara. Until you have experienced it is impossible to explain how horrific it can be...


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## notlongnow

...I think it is perhaps unfair to say that all Portuguese are out to charge double to the English. I think it is more the case that if you are the kind of person to not ask the right questions and get mugged off, there is a high chance of it here, just as there is anywhere else. We have come across isolated examples of this but also had dealings with companies who have been honest with us to the point of generosity.


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## omostra06

I have heard some stories from expats about being asked to pay more, i always say, if they ask you more then dont use them! (and make a point of telling evryone else not to use them too)

heard a tale the other week from a new to portugal expat, that was waiting to be served in a builders merchant in cabacos, near Alvaiazere the local guy infront bought the same thing he was after, he watched him get it, and pay for it, then when it was his turn the price for the same thing was doubled!(have heard a couple of tales like that about that builders merchant)

some do try it on and ask more for things if they know your from overseas. but to balance that out, there are many good tradesmen that offer good quality work at the right price, and some that you need to chase to pay, as they never seem to want the money!!

When I was an Estate Agent (before i retired) we often had owners say straight to us, if were marketing to people from the uk, then they want to ask more for the house, I didnt like that practice, and often told the owners what i thought of their view of charging expats more, on many occasions we rejected the property and choose not to sell it at all.


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## robc

jojo said:


> I'm in the UK at the moment, I have a house here. I dont know how things are in Portugal, but in Spain there are just as many corrupt politicians (probably more and at lower levels of government)a very healthy black market, there are riots, but the police have guns, the paperwork in spain is mindblowing and complicated and as part of the EU, there is just as much PC and strange rules and regs. I suspect Portugal isnt much different
> 
> My point is, by all means leave the UK to go to another country, but dont do it cos you think life is easier! "The grass is always greener, but it still needs mowing!"
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree and we are not. 
There are countless things that are better, Weather, Climate, Golf, Food, etc. and the small matter as the icing on the cake is Decree Law 249 of September 2009. 



Rob


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## blackirishgirl

> "The grass is always greener, but it still needs mowing!"


 The grass is always greener due to the huge amounts of fertilizer put on it, if you get my meaning.

The USA has always had its issues as well - corruption at high levels and at the very local level that everyday people are often hit with. We've had issues with "sexting" by politicians, pay offs, and voter fraud just to name a few. Taxed to death at middle income and given no public benefits to show for it. Private health ins unless you're below poverty level... Soc Sec system in question for pensioners in a few years (my upcoming years, I might add!!)

I didn't leave the USA to get away from it as I understand everywhere will have issues. Some days I do get frustrated here, *but* I can walk my dogs (so far) after 11 pm and not be worried, take the Metro with no worries, eat out at relative low prices and I have health care that's not private but still taking care of me pretty well. Things here are "different" in some ways and my thought is that if I start to think ONLY about what's bad here, then it's time to re evaluate or buy a plane ticket out. I still have days when I grumble A LOT about certain things here, but..... My commitment made in 2008 still stands and I remain.

By the way - my husband is Portuguese and even he grumbles about the way some things are done here! He's been to the USA as well and reminds me about some negatives I lived with there. 

The grass is just grass.


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## jojo

blackirishgirl said:


> The grass is always greener due to the huge amounts of fertilizer put on it, if you get my meaning.


True!! 

Jo xxx


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## Sirtravelot

Coaster19 said:


> Im British living with my Portuese wife in the UK, and she warns me of exactly the same when we are in portugal SHUT UP I'LL DO THE TALKING BECAUSE IF THEY KNOW YOUR ENGLISH YOU WILL BE CHARGED DOUBLE ! and its true!
> The portugeuse see English Holiday makers as easy targets as they think we have the money we spend over there 365 days a year, they dont see that most of us save hard all year for a holiday.
> Saying that I love Portugal and the People are so laid back with no worries shame the UK cant follow suit instead of all the hasssle , riots and fighting


I AGREE.

My mother is German and when we lived in Portugal during my first 11 years of age she said "The Portuguese think, that just because I'm German, I have a goose in my house that lays golden eggs!" and it was true. People would always try to charge her more for things, but once she spoke Portuguese to them and complained the price would lower.

It's something that still bothers me now. Now that I am older I still feel worried whenever we go to Portugal when my mom wants to buy things. 

You have to be _weary!_ Even as a Portuguese/German, I have been "conned" by the Spanish on holiday. Grrr!


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## silvers

To put a little persepective into this argument, if some British tradesmen spot an easy target, they are not above overcharging either.


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## Sirtravelot

silvers said:


> To put a little persepective into this argument, if some British tradesmen spot an easy target, they are not above overcharging either.


Absolute truth.

I have come across some pretty cheeky Scots, that's for sure.


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## omostra06

silvers said:


> To put a little persepective into this argument, if some British tradesmen spot an easy target, they are not above overcharging either.


in some cases they are worse!


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## jellybean

The best saying I've heard is 'the best way to make a small fortune is to come to Portugal with a large one'!!

Ho hum!


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## omostra06

jellybean said:


> The best saying I've heard is 'the best way to make a small fortune is to come to Portugal with a large one'!!
> 
> Ho hum!


plenty of people seem to be very successful in doing that.


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## MrB

I love the way you can get lunch inland in the Algarve with pratos del dia around 6.50, and then they give you starters of fresh goats cheese, smoked ham or fresh shrimps (OK you pay extra for them, but go for it). Big glass of wine for 1.50, 2 coffees 2.50.

And then they put bottles of almond liquer and melodrono? 45 degree schnaps on your table at the end to drink as much as you want for free. (OK, we were with a Portuguese friend!)

Hicc! MrB


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## canoeman

Litre of wine or your drink + coffee + soup included in our areas Pratos de Dia, extras starters or desserts, just thinking of that Pernil (roasted Pigs Hock)


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## siobhanwf

Too much information  Now I want my lunch and it is only 11am 

One of my favourites is Arroz do Tamboril (Monkfish - and other seafoods ) in a rice stew...to die for!


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## canoeman

Go to the Rocha Bar Restaurante restaurant at Pedrogao, eat what they call _Hotch Potch_ even better than Arroz de Tamboril, and Tamboril being one of the options.
It's the restaurant by the big circular car park on the rocky headland.


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## PmcQ

In my experience, nowhere is ever 100% perfect, but life if Portugal is pretty close to it!

I loved the 'laid back' way of life in Portugal when I visited on holiday, yet it was the main thing that drove me mad living there - no-one was ever in a hurry to get things done for you! 

In general, we found the Portuguese people to be warm, friendly and anxious to help - I doubt that 'foreigners' moving to Scotland would have half the welcome we received when we moved to Portugal - our neighbours practically adopted us and couldnt do enough to help.


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## escapos

Nowhere is going to be just perfect for anybody, we all have to make compromises to live the life we want to live, its when the compromises outweigh the benefits that you know you are in the wrong place for you.


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## AustinTX

Well I got shortchanged at the supermarket today (Continente Saldanha.) The girl gave me a bunch of coins and kept 5 euros for herself. I didn't notice until I got home and I'm trying to decide if I should just consider it a cheap lesson, or go back another time and try and catch her in the act. Thoughts?


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## canoeman

You'll find that maths, measuring and change giving is not a natural skill of the Portuguese, forget about it and be more careful next time


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## Coaster19

laughing out loud lol


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## siobhanwf

Down to you TX NO different from the US ! Check you change and your receipt BEFORE leaving the store!


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## MrB

You even get receipts when you buy a newspaper, so the evidence is before their eyes!


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## paramonte

AustinTX said:


> Well I got shortchanged at the supermarket today (Continente Saldanha.) The girl gave me a bunch of coins and kept 5 euros for herself. I didn't notice until I got home and I'm trying to decide if I should just consider it a cheap lesson, or go back another time and try and catch her in the act. Thoughts?


Go there again and ask her if she had a 5 euros surplus in the checkout, at least she will know you noticed.


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## siobhanwf

AustinTX said:


> Well I got shortchanged at the supermarket today (Continente Saldanha.) The girl gave me a bunch of coins and kept 5 euros for herself. I didn't notice until I got home and I'm trying to decide if I should just consider it a cheap lesson, or go back another time and try and catch her in the act. Thoughts?


It's even worse in the US if you are caught unawares  All notes are the same size and the same colour!


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## Mr.Blueskies

I think it is human nature the world over for almost everyone to take unfair advantage of others as soon as they realize that the other person is a little out of their comfort zone and not totally clued in about every aspect of the transaction. They all basically see a lack of knowledge and awareness as a sign of weakness and the green light to exploit the hell out of the other person.

In June when I went into Caldas da Rainha to get my car taxed I next queued up to be told when my number was called that their system was down so they could not accept my payment. A couple of days later I went back (now June 29th) so queued up once again for a repeat performance. System still down.  Third time I went in it was now July 2nd and after waiting my turn I was next told. You should have come here and paid this in June ?  There is now a penalty of €15 added for making a late payment ?  But I was here twice already, I next told her and both times YOU couldn't take the money because YOUR system was down. Why should I be charged a penalty because of that ????

Oh she said, everything was fixed at 3pm on June 30th and we next stayed open until 8 p.m. to clear the back log. I really had to bite my tongue at this point to stop myself from saying. How the **** am I supposed to know something like that you gob ****e ? Do you think I have nothing better to do than to set up house outside until you are capable of accepting my payment ? Anyway, they still screwed me for a late payment.  You don't have to pay it now she next says, you can tax your car any month that you like now and the penalty will remain a set penalty of €15. :boxing: One to beam up Mr. Scott !


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## Itoldacooljoke

Hey Austin!

What are you doing in Portugal? About the supermarket episode, what makes you think she did it on purpose? But anyways, if you're still getting used to the value and shape of the euro coin, just pay with debit/credit card... Last time I was in the US, coins are a complete plague and what I find it the most funny about it, is that when you pay with coins, people think you're poor.


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## canoeman

That's Portugal final dates are final dates, equally I got a hefty fine because another Tax office hadn't forward paperwork correctly lodged and in time period, fine had to be paid whilst they sorted out error and reclaimed, I did ask tongue in cheek about interest for the 9 weeks it took.

Next year pay online.


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## Mr.Blueskies

It get's better. After the tax office fiasco, I next went to the EDP office. They had sent me a letter to say that I had been over charged and so I was now due an €80 refund. I showed this porter guy the letter and he told me to take a number and wait my turn. Next I sat opposite this guy at his desk. I showed him the letter and he could see that I do not understand portuguese. Why do you not speak portuguese ? Because I am not from portugal. You really must learn how to speak portuguese. How long have you lived here ? I was already in bad form. lol Just give me the euros 

Can I see your passport please ? I don't have it with me. I cannot give you this refund unless I see your passport. I have your letter and I have just come from the car tax office. Here are my car taxation documents as proof of my identity. He took them and looked. This is not sufficient. Come back with your passport. 

A couple of days later I went back again with my passport. So after queuing again I showed it to him. We don't give refunds here. You have to go to the lottery shop in the new street for payment. Why didn't you tell me this the first time ? I have been here twice and I have queued here twice already to speak to you. For what purpose ?

I think that they are all working under protest here and the only way they get through their day is by deliberately frustrating the hell out of everyone and by pissing everyone off ?
Beam me aboard Mr. Scott.


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## Mr.Blueskies

My daughter came here for a visit in July. Because of problems at Dublin airport she was unable to fly direct to Lisbon. She had to go to Heatrow and get a second flight. When she arrived in Lisbon it was found that the luggage from the irish flight had not been transferred in time so had not come. This was not any fault of the portuguese though. A guy informed us that it would arrive next day and they would next send it on the bus to our local bus station where it could be collected in the baggage office there. It will be there at 11 am tomorrow.

So next day (4pm) we went into Caldas da Rainha to collect her case. The guy in the baggage office had not received it ? I called the airport to tell them this ? Next day the airport guy phones me to say that the bag is now definately at the bus depot. So back we go again. But there is still no bag ? This next went on for four days. My daughter was getting quite upset at this point. She only had the clothes that she was wearing and was now convinced that her luggage was lost. Endless phone calls were made back and forth but they kept insisting that the bag was in Caldas da Rainha bus depot like we had requested. Yet every time I went there I was getting told the same thing. No bag here. The guy could speak no english but after four days of this rubbish he now decides to get a girl who could speak to us. So we told her what was happening. She went and made some phone calls. Your bag is in Alcobaca bus depot and it has been there for the past four days. We are having it sent here on the next bus.

:confused2:

Warp speed out of here Mr. Scott.


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## siobhanwf

Mr.Blueskies said:


> My daughter came here for a visit in July. Because of problems at Dublin airport she was unable to fly direct to Lisbon. She had to go to Heatrow and get a second flight. When she arrived in Lisbon it was found that the luggage from the irish flight had not been transferred in time so had not come. This was not any fault of the portuguese though. A guy informed us that it would arrive next day and they would next send it on the bus to our local bus station where it could be collected in the baggage office there. It will be there at 11 am tomorrow.
> 
> So next day (4pm) we went into Caldas da Rainha to collect her case. The guy in the baggage office had not received it ? I called the airport to tell them this ? Next day the airport guy phones me to say that the bag is now definately at the bus depot. So back we go again. But there is still no bag ? This next went on for four days. My daughter was getting quite upset at this point. She only had the clothes that she was wearing and was now convinced that her luggage was lost. Endless phone calls were made back and forth but they kept insisting that the bag was in Caldas da Rainha bus depot like we had requested. Yet every time I went there I was getting told the same thing. No bag here. The guy could speak no english but after four days of this rubbish he now decides to get a girl who could speak to us. So we told her what was happening. She went and made some phone calls. Your bag is in Alcobaca bus depot and it has been there for the past four days. We are having it sent here on the next bus.
> 
> :confused2:
> 
> Warp speed out of here Mr. Scott.


Thing is Mr Blueskies you postal code is 2460 which is Alcobaca which is where they sent it! The fact that Caldas da Rainha is 7 kms nearer to your home does not mean that is where it will be sent !


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## Mr.Blueskies

That would be true Siobhan had I not specified that I wanted to have it sent to Caldas. This information was typed into their computer. Because I have no idea where the bus depot is in Alcobaca ?


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## siobhanwf

Mr.Blueskies said:


> That would be true Siobhan had I not specified that I wanted to have it sent to Caldas. This information was typed into their computer. Because I have no idea where the bus depot is in Alcobaca ?


What a sahme. But at least it arrived in the end and didn't end up in OZ!!


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## Ingles

*Cleaning out Car's*

As too the Good things here in Portugal ,there are too many to point out.
But as to the Bad the main thing that "grinds my gears" is the amount of rubbish thrown out of car's or "lost" of the back of Lorries.
The Junta workmen have just cut the road side vegatation down in my area with there JCB hedge cutter , the s--t it has exposed is incrediable , every sort of plastic - glass -empty cement bag's etc etc
There have been several campaigns over the years TV - Press to advise that this not only Ilegal but down right dangerous & what has changed - nothing 
I remember coming back from a business trip up to Barcelos in 2004 a couple of week's before the start of Euro Football 2004
North of Oporto the A3 was fairly clean but on the A1 there where big gang's of workmen cleaning the road side , I kid you not there was a full bags of rubbish ever 10 meters all the way down to the Aveiro turn off.
I made the same trip in early in October 2004 & the rubbish was begining to build up yet again
Lack of education ,I doubt it , The Gov have tried but the locals take no notice - lack of common sense & civility yes !
Will it ever change ,sadly I don't think so


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## siobhanwf

Last time we were back in the UK I was embarrased by the amount of rubbish on the side of the motorways!


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## sharky

From this weeks Portugal News, So it isn't only me then
Portugal ‘least trust-worthy country’ in Europe 
1/10/2011

Of 16 European countries, Portugal is the one that inspires the least confidence among fellow Europeans in terms of business transactions, according to a study published this week.

In the study, entitled ‘Trade, Trust and Institutions’, carried out by Groningen University graduates Shu Yu, Jakob de Haan and Sjoerd Beugelsdijk, Portugal emerges as the fourth least trustworthy country for business deals, followed by Greece, Spain and Italy.

On the other hand, Sweden, Denmark and Finland were voted as the most confidence-inspiring countries.

For more than a decade, between 1996 and 2009, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Italy, Holland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, the UK and Germany were studied.

A sample of around 1,000 individuals from each country were asked to rate whether they had ‘lots of’, ‘some’, ‘little’ or ‘no’ confidence in citizens from the other participating countries.

It was found that, on average, “citizens from Southern Europe are the least confidence-inspiring in the eyes of their counterparts.”

“The Swedes achieved a higher level of trust while the Portuguese are the ones who citizens of other countries least trust”, the report concluded.

The aim of the study was to investigate the relation between trust and formal institutions, analysing bilateral trade patterns in a sample of 16 European countries.

The researchers explain: “Trust in trading partners has a significant positive effect on bilateral trade. However, our results suggest that trust and formal institutions are substitutes, as the positive effect of trust on trade is conditional on the quality of formal institutions.”

The suggestion is made that, countries such as Portugal should improve the quality of their formal institutions.


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## sharky

:From this weeks Portugal News, So it isn't only me then
Portugal ‘least trust-worthy country’ in Europe 
1/10/2011

Of 16 European countries, Portugal is the one that inspires the least confidence among fellow Europeans in terms of business transactions, according to a study published this week.

In the study, entitled ‘Trade, Trust and Institutions’, carried out by Groningen University graduates Shu Yu, Jakob de Haan and Sjoerd Beugelsdijk, Portugal emerges as the fourth least trustworthy country for business deals, followed by Greece, Spain and Italy.

On the other hand, Sweden, Denmark and Finland were voted as the most confidence-inspiring countries.

For more than a decade, between 1996 and 2009, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Italy, Holland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, the UK and Germany were studied.

A sample of around 1,000 individuals from each country were asked to rate whether they had ‘lots of’, ‘some’, ‘little’ or ‘no’ confidence in citizens from the other participating countries.

It was found that, on average, “citizens from Southern Europe are the least confidence-inspiring in the eyes of their counterparts.”

“The Swedes achieved a higher level of trust while the Portuguese are the ones who citizens of other countries least trust”, the report concluded.

The aim of the study was to investigate the relation between trust and formal institutions, analysing bilateral trade patterns in a sample of 16 European countries.

The researchers explain: “Trust in trading partners has a significant positive effect on bilateral trade. However, our results suggest that trust and formal institutions are substitutes, as the positive effect of trust on trade is conditional on the quality of formal institutions.”

The suggestion is made that, countries such as Portugal should improve the quality of their formal institutions.


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## Mr.Blueskies

If you ask me they all want locking up in institutions. In the three years that I have lived here I don't honestly believe that I have had a single transaction with any one of them that went like it was supposed to or had a satisfactory conclusion and outcome.

If you value your sanity keep all dealings with them to an absolute minimum.


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## canoeman

You might preface your post with a  but if you are serious, I think that's an extremely unfair statement to me made, it might be your experience but how much of it is your fault for maybe not or even trying understanding the difference between Portuguese culture and UK.

Yes we've all had our share of experiences, frustrations, etc when dealing with the Portuguese system, mine initially I think because I had no concept of the meaning of Amanha, but I can honestly say exactly the opposite to you and the vast majority of my dealings have had a satisfactory conclusion and outcome.


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## siobhanwf

I totally agree canoeman.
Very much depends to on our own attitude to the person we are dealing with.
Also remembering even thought we have explained something completely did the other person REALLY understand?


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## The Patriot

*Yep*



robc said:


> Come and try a few months in the UK..................that should sort you out.
> 
> You think it is bad in Portugal.....try the UK. Everything is going up in price, Govt offices are not closing at lunchtimes, mainly because they have all been shutdown and centralised. It is apparently acceptable for some Govt. dept.s to take up to 77 days to respond to a letter.
> 
> The health service is a mess, I know as my Father in Law has just been discharged after major stomach surgery, he was given a bag of tablets, a quick explanation (to a deaf 86 year old !!!!!) and sent on his way. No one but no one bothered to ask how he was going to fend for himself.
> 
> We are relocating to Portugal...................it cannot come soon enough.
> 
> Rob


Spose we have got to make the most of it where ever we are, just hope the weather is going to be a lot better than UK


----------



## siobhanwf

Frankspencer said:


> Spose we have got to make the most of it where ever we are, just hope the weather is going to be a lot better than UK




It is 
if I had to make the decision over again I would still be here in Portugal.

Making the most of it involves a lot of give and take.

At the end of the day if it bother you that much why stay here 

But then the will always be the people who's cup is ALWAY half empty 

Mine is on the full side of half full :clap2:


----------



## robc

I am with you on that one Siobhan.

Just a shame that people keep coming along and nicking some of the contents of my glass !!!!!


----------



## siobhanwf

robc said:


> I am with you on that one Siobhan.
> 
> Just a shame that people keep coming along and nicking some of the contents of my glass !!!!!




Yea but you keep topping yours up! :clap2:


----------



## robc

siobhanwf said:


> Yea but you keep topping yours up! :clap2:


Ooooo I have been rumbled 

Rob


----------



## MandyG

*What to do????!!!!!!!!!!*

The decision is driving me mad!!!

We so want to move to Portugal but have so much to consider, finances, 14 year old's education, animals etc. I am age 50 and my husband is 55 and he would still be able to earn a living in the UK.

We are not massively wealthy and the worlds finances are not in great shape but we are not happy here in the UK and worry about leaving it too late health wise to 'live the dream'.

Any advice would be appreciated!!


----------



## MrBife

MandyG said:


> Any advice would be appreciated!!


Go for it !

But in a careful way so you don't burn bridges. Rent the UK house and use the money to rent one in PT - in my view it takes a year to settle in and after that time you should have the experience and info you need to decide if it's a forever move or whether going back is better. If you can make a living from elsewhere then PT is a brilliant place to live


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## siobhanwf

But it nay not be as easy as you think for your 14 year old to settle into the Portuguese education system.


----------



## MandyG

Thanks for your advice. With regard to my 14 year old daughter, we would put her into an international school, probably the Vale Verde at Burgau, as she needs to get her GCSE's etc.


----------



## 4rivers

*What is good and bad about Portugal .*

What is good and bad about living in Portugal - that's the thread heading . 

I lived and worked in the Azores, Terceira - from 1981 - 1987 and then from 1993 - 2007 . 

I loved it , and still love it, it was green all the year round, and it was laid back . Plus it was cheap to live, which if you had a good wage ( which I did in those time periods ) made it even better, and good for saving. If you are a retiree , that can also work. 

Good things - well it was and is cheap to live there , compared to most other countries . 
Car insurance was and is 30% cheaper.
Car Tax - in 2007 I paid 15 euros for a Citroen Saxo. 
Food - somethings, like meat, up to 70 % cheaper. And fresh not frozen. Generally 15 - 20 % cheaper. Limited availability of some, familiar to you, items. 
Fish fresh from the sea , usually daily - except some winter months. 
Property used to be a lot cheaper - the first 2 bed. house I bought there, was in 1984, less than 10,000 gbp. The second in 1997 was under 25,000 gbp. 
Entertainment - pretty good , depends, what you are in to.
Eating out - cheap.
Water - cheap - I used to pay 5 euros a month. 
Electricity - ok , 65 euros a month , 3 Ph. 
Gas - was 55 euros for a large bottle. Good for 3 months to run a flash water heater and a gaz stove. 
Central heating - doesn't generally exist , wood burning stove is popular, in recent years . Central heating, not really required. 
Air quality - no industry - so excellent . 
The people - like everywhere else , there are good and bad - allow yourself to be screwed and you will be, whether in a shop or bar , or in a business transaction. 
They have a love hate relationship with the Americians , especially the coloured americians , which is related partly to Angola , and other colonies. Plus Lajesfield is major refuelling stop for the US airforce - so there are 2000 plus US personell on the island. With there big cars and their dollars and their ignorance.
So - if you speak only English, you are categorised as American, irrespective of where you are from. 
Public Holidays - at last count there were 19 per year - more than anywhere else I know of . 
Religeon - predominately Catholic - with a bit of witchcraft thrown in . 
( If your cow is sick , you go to church , light a candle , pray about it , slip the priest , a gift , so he gets everyone to pray about it - if that doesn't work , you go to the witchdoctor - he listens to the cows ailments - gives you a potion - you pay him . Usually done in reverse order, with the mindset of whatever works) 
The Bone Doctor - a man who fixes bones - man or beast . Bad back - he can fix it . And yes , it does work . 


The not so good things - the bureaucracy is almost second to none - in the old days , to work for a government instituation - it helped if you knew someone who worked there - or were related to someone who worked there- then it was easy to get a job , whether you were qualified or not . That meant for the general individial who wanted help with something , or to make documents or pay for something - you queued and waited and you got shuffled from one office to the next , irrespective of whether you were a foreigner or not . 
The good news is this is all changing - and government instituations are employing qualified people. But you still have to queue - and you can still have problems getting something simple done. 
And yes, corruption still exists - and a fifty euro note will get you better service, than the normal - or do a favour, to be collected.

The judicial system is a disaster ( I speak from experience , after 4 years, still waiting to go to court for a divorce, the court have delayed the hearing twice) 
But - if you can wait , and subject to your circumstances , it can be cheaper to get divorced in Portugal than in the UK. 

The police - well in the old days , you used to be able to do a favour or (get the right one ) make a donation for a good cause. And relieve yourself of minor traffic afflictions. Because most of the police were recruited from the islands. 
That's changed as well - now the police are coming from the mainland - and they don't give a damn about doing favours . And god help you, if you attempt to bribe the wrong one. 
Plus of course - they are only really interested in giving tickets for driving infractions , and sitting in the bar located in the police station ( Every police station - on Terceira had it's own bar and coffee shop ) If you report a crime in progress ( it takes them at least 3 hours to turn up ) if you report a theft - and you know who the thief was - you need 3 witnesses . The latter being more to do with the judicial system than the police themselves. 

The Guarda National - similiar to the police, they love to give tickets - especially for road (circulation ) tax and not having a current inspection ( mot ) certificate. (There were two guys - that used to genuinelly smile when ever they saw me - I never had time to spend hours, queueing up, to pay for something - some of it now - you can do online .) They receive a commission for who they catch. 

Medical - well it's not like the Nat. Health - but it's ok , and they do have some good doctors - but it is a queue for hours system . And don't ever seek emergency medical attention at the hospital after 5.00 pm. - you could die waiting . 
Presciptions are cheap , pain medication is very cheap and a good selection. 
Private medical is available . But expect to pay, as with any other country. 

Infastructure - roads - pretty good , doesn't freeze there , so , a few potholes, but not many . 
- water - almost all properties are hooked up . 
- electricity , almost all properties are hooked up . 
- sewerage - a lot of properties in the rural areas have a septic tank , but in the towns they are on the main sewer. 
- telecommunications - most properties have the phone , internet can be difficult, sometimes , subject to where you live . But generally ok. 

Transportation - TAP,Sata - regular daily flights , as a resident , you get a discounted ticket , as a resident foriegner they will try to screw you - but, only, if you let them. 

Illegal Drugs - the Azores is a major transportation route by air and sea . All your favourite drugs are readily available - if , you seek them out . As a foreigner expect to be ripped off. Plus , an ideal location for grow your own . It should be noted - that the PSP ( Police) take a dim view of illegal drug possession or use - and the Judicial system are more seveere than other enlightened countries. 

Property now - is a little over priced , in my opinion - but there is a lot of choice . 
Building land - it's all about location , location , and location - but about 35,000 euros for a plot of 1000 M2. Can be cheaper - be prepared to haggle. 
Building costs - between 750 - 1000 euros per M2. 

Education - it's better than it used to be . 

So if you want to live some where, where there are as many cows as there are people , try Terceira , Azores _ text removed - advertising not permitted - Siobhanwf Moderator_


----------



## siobhanwf

4rivers said:


> What is good and bad about living in Portugal - that's the thread heading .
> .
> Car insurance was and is 30% cheaper.
> Car Tax - in 2007 I paid 15 euros for a Citroen Saxo. has changed considerably for cars registered after July 2007. Prior that date is still reasonable. Our 1.9tdi is 160 euros
> 
> Property used to be a lot cheaper - the first 2 bed. house I bought there, was in 1984, less than 10,000 gbp. The second in 1997 was under 25,000 gbp. I think you will find that property has risen a great deal since 1997
> 
> Electricity - ok , 65 euros a month , 3 Ph.
> Gas - was 55 euros for a large bottle. Good for 3 months to run a flash water heater and a gaz stove. Now cost well over 120 euros
> 
> Central heating - doesn't generally exist , wood burning stove is popular, in recent years . Central heating, not really required. In mainland Portugal c/h is now built in to all new homes and if not fully installed the initial plumbing will have the piping installed (you will need to buy the boiler and radiators
> 
> Air quality - no industry - so excellent .
> 
> So - if you speak only English, you are categorised as American, irrespective of where you are from Not so on the mainland
> 
> 
> Medical - well it's not like the Nat. Health - but it's ok (It's better!! , and they do have some good doctors - but it is a queue for hours system . And don't ever seek emergency medical attention at the hospital after 5.00 pm. - you could die waiting (On two occassions I have had to seek emergency attention nad on both occassions I was seen by a triage nurse within 20 mins - one vist was in the daytime - 2pm- the second on was at 8pm . Once seen by t riage there can be a short wait but on each occassion I was seen by a doctor within 30 mins. On the second occassion I was even in a bed on the ward BEFORE midnight
> 
> Presciptions are cheap (depending on the drug!! one of mine cost 105 euros for 28 day supply with the health service reduction, pain medication is very cheap and a good selection.
> 
> Private medical is available . But expect to pay, as with any other country If I see a GP privately the cost is 40 euros A specialist is 70


I have highlighted my answer in red as it made it easier (for me) 
A lot of the information is pertinent only to the Azores


----------



## 4rivers

siobhanwf said:


> I have highlighted my answer in red as it made it easier (for me)
> A lot of the information is pertinent only to the Azores



Yes , indeed Siobhanwf - the information given was pertinent only to the Azores. 

And property prices have risen astronomically from '97. And they are still over priced in my opinion. But the tide is turning , as there are a lot of properties that people can't sell , because the banks will not lend potential local purchasers the money. 

Medical Services in the Azores, is different from the mainland , but private medical is about the same .
Pills and potions cost wise - depends on what you have, to have . And I don't dispute your costs .


----------



## siobhanwf

MandyG said:


> Thanks for your advice. With regard to my 14 year old daughter, we would put her into an international school, probably the Vale Verde at Burgau, as she needs to get her GCSE's etc.


that is really good news. The kids that go to International schools learn to integrate with all other nationailties and languages which is one of the best educations they can get 

Good luck and please let us all know how you get on :clap2:


----------



## siobhanwf

4rivers said:


> Yes , indeed Siobhanwf - the information given was pertinent only to the Azores.
> 
> And property prices have risen astronomically from '97. And they are still over priced in my opinion. But the tide is turning , as there are a lot of properties that people can't sell , because the banks will not lend potential local purchasers the money.
> 
> Medical Services in the Azores, is different from the mainland , but private medical is about the same .
> Pills and potions cost wise - depends on what you have, to have . And I don't dispute your costs .



As a kidney transplant recipient my drugs are onl the costly side  most normal drugs you only pay a contribution towards. Indeed amny on the cheaper ends of the scale are 1/3 the price of the same drug on an NHS prescription in the UK.


----------



## AustinTX

Tell me more about this bone doctor.


----------



## siobhanwf

AustinTX said:


> Tell me more about this bone doctor.



Guess you have to go to the Azores to see him/her. Are you ready for a lane:


----------



## 4rivers

Bone doctor - someone with no formal medical training , who's gift was the ability to manipulate bones - usual recipitents had four legs . But was able to work his magic people as well.


----------



## Mr.Blueskies

MandyG said:


> Thanks for your advice. With regard to my 14 year old daughter, we would put her into an international school, probably the Vale Verde at Burgau, as she needs to get her GCSE's etc.


Hi Mandy,
The international schools here are over rated in my experience. I had my 14 year old daughter attend one for a year. It might surprise you to know that a lot of teachers who teach in private international schools are less qualified than teachers in public schools here and a great many of them would not be employed in a public school because of this. I also found that because lessons are in english and portuguese is taught as a language lesson that there is little incentive for your child to speak portuguese so not a lot will be learned. 

Something else that was a big surprise to me was the number of portuguese who put their kids into these international schools to be taught in english and many drive very considerable distances to these schools especially in the central region where there is only one international school in Marinha Grande. I would say that 90% of the kids who attend the international school in Marinha Grande are portuguese . Why would they choose to send them there with so many good options close to home and free was the question that I would ask myself ?
The reason is more to do with social standing and an expression of wealth and to be seen to be able to AFFORD to send their kids there. Of the expats who sent their children to this school initially, the only ones who kept their children there for more than a year were those who were here on work contracts and who were going to be returning to the uk or home after a time. To these people it obviously made sense to do this because their children were going to return to the uk education system. For those who were planning to remain here it very soon made much more sense to put their children into local portuguese school with a view to having them integrate with the local kids in their local community. This is never going to happen if you child goes to an international school that is a long way from where you live.


----------



## canoeman

I wouldn't underrate the Portuguese education system either, their exams etc can be used just the same as GCSE's and in this age of dumbing down probably of greater value.
You'll also do your children a favor by making them bilingual and able to appreciate different culture and life.

One of our Grandchildren has just got his first "O" level Grade B at 14 for English literature, this is a child who up to last year wouldn't read a book!


----------



## AustinTX

Forcing your kid to start high school in a new country and putting them in a school where they don't speak the primary language seems like child abuse.


----------



## svanan

AustinTX said:


> Forcing your kid to start high school in a new country and putting them in a school where they don't speak the primary language seems like child abuse.


AustinTX -- I concur with you.


----------



## canoeman

Why move to a foreign country then?


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> Why move to a foreign country then?


Canoe ...............I concur with you.


----------



## siobhanwf

Tend to feel the same


----------



## svanan

robc said:


> Canoe ...............I concur with you.


Mate,

Perhaps you are not aware of the United Nations recommendations under their "Education for All" and "Universal Primary Education". In their report some of the findings are,

"There is much research which shows that students learn to read more quickly when taught in their mother tongue. Second, students who have learned to read in their mother tongue learn to read in a second language more quickly than do those who are first taught to read in the second language. Third, in terms of academic learning skills as well, students taught to read in their mother tongue acquire such skills more quickly". 

Many of my fellow expat friends who originated from Germany do send to German school, from UK to British school. It has nothing to do "Why move to a foreign country then?", more to how to enable effective learning. Its hard when you want to start from high school in academic point of view.

Its fine when you start from elementary level. My kid goes to Portuguese school starting from creche.


----------



## canoeman

Surely one of the reasons for moving unless it's a temporary foreign posting, is to partake in your country of choices culture, otherwise why move, if you have children then they become part of that equation, my upbringing and belief is that it would enrich that childs abilities etc, if someone wishes their children to be educated back "home" or in a "international school" that's their choice, personally I believe it to be a lost opportunity.

I don't really see the relevance of your UN quote as it seems to contradict itself.


----------



## svanan

canoeman said:


> Surely one of the reasons for moving unless it's a temporary foreign posting, is to partake in your country of choices culture, otherwise why move, if you have children then they become part of that equation, my upbringing and belief is that it would enrich that childs abilities etc, if someone wishes their children to be educated back "home" or in a "international school" that's their choice, personally I believe it to be a lost opportunity.
> 
> I don't really see the relevance of your UN quote as it seems to contradict itself.


Can't see the relevance? LOL I rest my case


----------



## jojo

canoeman said:


> Surely one of the reasons for moving unless it's a temporary foreign posting, is to partake in your country of choices culture, otherwise why move, if you have children then they become part of that equation, my upbringing and belief is that it would enrich that childs abilities etc, if someone wishes their children to be educated back "home" or in a "international school" that's their choice, personally I believe it to be a lost opportunity.
> 
> I don't really see the relevance of your UN quote as it seems to contradict itself.


It depends on the age of the child. Over 10 or 11 and there is little point IMO of sending them to a school with a different language and structure. Its not just about academic education, but with hormones just about to breakthu, its not a good time for that kind of change and rarely leads to anything but a deep resentment and dislike of the foreign country (I speak from experience). International schools these days, arent "British bastions amidst a sea of foreigners", they're *international* and they have many cultures, nationalities and styles of education, so they arent bad places to send kids - british kids especially cos thats usually the curriculum and language predominantly used.

But in the end it depends on the child and its age - just my twopennyworth

jo xxx


----------



## robc

svanan said:


> Mate,
> 
> Perhaps you are not aware of the United Nations recommendations under their "Education for All" and "Universal Primary Education".
> 
> 
> 
> Its fine when you start from elementary level. My kid goes to Portuguese school starting from creche.



I am not your mate. End of.

I trust that you will ensure that this is clearly evidenced in future correspondence.

Rob


----------



## svanan

robc said:


> I am not your mate. End of.
> 
> I trust that you will ensure that this is clearly evidenced in future correspondence.
> 
> Rob


Wow grumpy


----------



## siobhanwf

Svanan 

I have sent you a PM would be grateful if you read it before any other posts


----------



## Mr.Blueskies

svanan said:


> AustinTX -- I concur with you.



Child abuse might be too strong a term but it is certainly not easy for them to adjust. Young kids take it in their stride but with teenagers it is very very different. This is after putting them into portuguese school I mean. In quite a few pt schools they will also be the only foreign kid which doesn't help and they can next feel very alienated and alone.


----------



## siobhanwf

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Child abuse might be too strong a term but it is certainly not easy for them to adjust. Young kids take it in their stride but with teenagers it is very very different. This is after putting them into portuguese school I mean. In quite a few pt schools they will also be the only foreign kid which doesn't help and they can next feel very alienated and alone.



I know the hard time you all went through Mr Blueskies as I saw it first hand.

And your offspring was one who would fit in anywhere, always has a smile on face.

it is also very hard dragging them away from friends at a time when the hormones are flying around be it a son or a daughter


----------



## Emmis

svanan said:


> Mate,
> 
> Perhaps you are not aware of the United Nations recommendations under their "Education for All" and "Universal Primary Education". In their report some of the findings are,
> 
> "There is much research which shows that students learn to read more quickly when taught in their mother tongue. Second, students who have learned to read in their mother tongue learn to read in a second language more quickly than do those who are first taught to read in the second language. Third, in terms of academic learning skills as well, students taught to read in their mother tongue acquire such skills more quickly".
> 
> Many of my fellow expat friends who originated from Germany do send to German school, from UK to British school. It has nothing to do "Why move to a foreign country then?", more to how to enable effective learning. Its hard when you want to start from high school in academic point of view.
> 
> Its fine when you start from elementary level. My kid goes to Portuguese school starting from creche.



Quotes from the United Nations aside, would it be possible for you to understand how extreme and offensive it is to describe putting children from secondary school age upwards, into a non English speaking/local school, as child abuse? 

Before we start throwing such extreme accusations around anymore and potentially offending and upsetting many people, I think I would like to see more anthropological and psychological studies which back up your statement. 

Unfortunately all your United Nations quote expressed was that children learn _quicker_ when learning to read in their own mother tongue. At no point did it say that it is damaging psychologically or physically (which could be seen as abuse perhaps). Psychology needs to be taken into account. 

At many English speaking International schools there are children from many different countries who don't speak English, and these children often start these English International schools well beyond 11 years of age. Are we now accusing these parents of child abuse as well, or is it only if one is an English speaker that one abuses their child after the age of 11 if one sends their child to a non-English speaking school? 

In the UK and the US when foreigners migrate from non-English speaking countries do all the children continue to attend schools in their native tongue or are they encouraged to send their children to local schools so they can integrate? Is that abuse? 

I personally send my children to an English speaking international school here in Lisbon but that's my personal choice because we are only here for one year. If I were here longer I would much prefer them to be educated locally. There is a sense of exclusion, and the "them vs us syndrome" in International education. Yes, many Portuguese send their children to the school but their backgrounds differ greatly from ours, and sometimes I don't feel my children are really experiencing that down-to-earth quality and life education that they gain when attending local schools where the economic strata is far wider. But all of that is just a personal feeling and I know many people who prefer to have their children educated only in international schools, and others who would prefer to have their children fully experience the culture of their new country every time they move. That is a personal choice and there are positive outcomes from either decisions.

However, my main issue here is one of terminology. Can we please not refer to people's personal choices in such an offensive fashion?

We all have personal opinions but there are far more appropriate ways to express them.


----------



## svanan

Emmis said:


> Quotes from the United Nations aside, would it be possible for you to understand how extreme and offensive it is to describe putting children from secondary school age upwards, into a non English speaking/local school, as child abuse?
> 
> Before we start throwing such extreme accusations around anymore and potentially offending and upsetting many people, I think I would like to see more anthropological and psychological studies which back up your statement.
> 
> Unfortunately all your United Nations quote expressed was that children learn _quicker_ when learning to read in their own mother tongue. At no point did it say that it is damaging psychologically or physically (which could be seen as abuse perhaps). Psychology needs to be taken into account.
> 
> At many English speaking International schools there are children from many different countries who don't speak English, and these children often start these English International schools well beyond 11 years of age. Are we now accusing these parents of child abuse as well, or is it only if one is an English speaker that one abuses their child after the age of 11 if one sends their child to a non-English speaking school?
> 
> In the UK and the US when foreigners migrate from non-English speaking countries do all the children continue to attend schools in their native tongue or are they encouraged to send their children to local schools so they can integrate? Is that abuse?
> 
> I personally send my children to an English speaking international school here in Lisbon but that's my personal choice because we are only here for one year. If I were here longer I would much prefer them to be educated locally. There is a sense of exclusion, and the "them vs us syndrome" in International education. Yes, many Portuguese send their children to the school but their backgrounds differ greatly from ours, and sometimes I don't feel my children are really experiencing that down-to-earth quality and life education that they gain when attending local schools where the economic strata is far wider. But all of that is just a personal feeling and I know many people who prefer to have their children educated only in international schools, and others who would prefer to have their children fully experience the culture of their new country every time they move. That is a personal choice and there are positive outcomes from either decisions.
> 
> However, my main issue here is one of terminology. Can we please not refer to people's personal choices in such an offensive fashion?
> 
> We all have personal opinions but there are far more appropriate ways to express them.


LOL...

1. I was not the one who wrote "child abuse". Do some search to get the facts right.

2. When AustinTX mentioned "child abuse". When I read it, I take that as a "figure of speech" regardless whatever meaning he intend it to be. Come on, are you that naive to take that literally? Please do not panic when someone mentions he has "butterflies in his stomach" 

3. When I am comparing two apples, (ie. which language is better in encouraging effective learning), you are complaining of not mentioning anything about oranges? Of course! As I am just raising the point on which is better backed up with reports from UN, period, not which is worse . Need not infer and try to read in between lines. After all, all languages are beautiful and work of art. Its one's choice where they want their children to enroll, aint it?

I am fine with debates but give quality ones please. I shall put this to rest here.


----------



## Emmis

svanan said:


> LOL...
> 
> 1. I was not the one who wrote "child abuse". Do some search to get the facts right.
> 
> 2. When AustinTX mentioned "child abuse". When I read it, I take that as a "figure of speech" regardless whatever meaning he intend it to be. Come on, are you that naive to take that literally? Please do not panic when someone mentions he has "butterflies in his stomach"
> 
> 3. When I am comparing two apples, (ie. which language is better in encouraging effective learning), you are complaining of not mentioning anything about oranges? Of course! As I am just raising the point on which is better backed up with reports from UN, period, not which is worse . Need not infer and try to read in between lines. After all, all languages are beautiful and work of art. Its one's choice where they want their children to enroll, aint it?
> 
> I am fine with debates but give quality ones please. I shall put this to rest here.


I fail to see how "concurring" with someone who states that placing children in foreign language schools is child abuse could not cause a degree of insult to people on this forum who do make that choice. '

However, I do agree that I misquoted and should have chosen AustinTX's quote instead. I think you're both wrong in your choice of language but now it would seem that you are contradicting yourself by saying that it is one's own choice to enroll their children where they wish. I'm amused by that argumentative tactic. Insult on one hand and then say that anyone's free to choose. Very interesting. 

I also apologise for failing to provide a quality debate - it must be hard not having anyone to contradict yourself with.

I also don't think anyone has butterflies in their stomachs over anything you said. Butterflies in one's stomach means one is nervous or excited. No-one, as far as I'm aware, was nervous or excited reading your posts. Irritated a bit, perhaps (well in this sitting room anyway!), but not nervous.

I don't think I was inferring. I was just reading what I read on the screen. AustinTX used language I personally find uncomfortable and insulting and you concurred. Or does concur now mean the opposite of agree. 

Anyway, following your post, I went online to do some research and was interested to discover the UNESCO document you partially quoted from. Very interesting document. You should have quoted more. Without concurring with child abuse, that is. I think as foreigners we should be a bit more supportive about each other's choices. I'd offer the information as you started to do, but you and Austin TX should be careful with your vocabulary. Unless of course your intention is primarily one of one-upmanship, and offence.

If anyone is interested the document is here:
http://reach.uvic.ca/documents/UNESCOSummary2010.pdf


----------



## siobhanwf

Right guys. Enough is enough :boxing:. Play nice and read the rules of the forum


----------



## Emmis

siobhanwf said:


> Right guys. Enough is enough :boxing:. Play nice and read the rules of the forum


Sorry Siobhan


----------



## anapedrosa

Learning and understanding Portuguese appears to me to be something that will contribute to a positive experience of living in Portugal - as would learning English to live in the UK.

In terms of school, it does seem to me that that is a discussion between the parent, their child and the school. There are more ways to learn the language than at school and it depends on individual and family ambitions what path you would choose.

Portugal - what's good, my opinion.
- the ocean and beeches
- the rolling hills and the smell of eucalyptus, fig and other delicate fragrances
- the affordable cafés - a coffee or a beer and a light snack doesn't hurt the budget
- the pastries - well good until it hits my hips
- the people who say 'bom dia' and smile at you after you've only been to their shop once or twice
- the language - I enjoy learning languages and how wonderful to hear the different sounds
- the architecture, Batalha, Jeronimos
- the appreciation of poetry - I only hope that I can learn to read well enough to grasp more than the basic appreciation

- what's bad, the bureaucracy and lack of efficiency and governance, but that has improved and I hope will continue to improve

My thoughts anyway.


----------



## siobhanwf

anapedrosa said:


> Learning and understanding Portuguese appears to me to be something that will contribute to a positive experience of living in Portugal - as would learning English to live in the UK.
> 
> In terms of school, it does seem to me that that is a discussion between the parent, their child and the school. There are more ways to learn the language than at school and it depends on individual and family ambitions what path you would choose.
> 
> Portugal - what's good, my opinion.
> - the ocean and beeches
> - the rolling hills and the smell of eucalyptus, fig and other delicate fragrances
> - the affordable cafés - a coffee or a beer and a light snack doesn't hurt the budget
> - the pastries - well good until it hits my hips
> - the people who say 'bom dia' and smile at you after you've only been to their shop once or twice
> - the language - I enjoy learning languages and how wonderful to hear the different sounds
> - the architecture, Batalha, Jeronimos
> - the appreciation of poetry - I only hope that I can learn to read well enough to grasp more than the basic appreciation
> 
> - what's bad, the bureaucracy and lack of efficiency and governance, but that has improved and I hope will continue to improve
> 
> My thoughts anyway.


:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


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## slave1

*learn to swim!*

As what somebody already said: go with the stream....
Indeed, getting nervous, ancious doesn´t help at the contrary!
Learn to swim, learn to relax, take a book with you if you go the bank, administrative offices...Learn to shut up or you get lynched. (Only a portugese person can and may talk bad and show critisism about Portugal, if you are a foreigner and altough you have reason they all join against you > I have had and will have this experience for over 100 times)

24 years living in this country, 24 years of fustration.............
Please don´t answer me with the question why I don´t move back to my original country (there is no week we don´t have to hear that...) 
We are stuck!!! And throughly, Portugal IS a very NICE and BEAUTIFULL country.

After 24 years I think I learned to swim the stream, but sometimes the stream has some wirlhpools and then it´s hard and fustrating!

Greetings to all the brave swimmers!


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## siobhanwf

Flowing with the tide is the best bit of therapy there is here in Portugal.
Have taken it all with me when I know I am going to have to wait.

Book, knitting, crossstitch and now my new IPad 

I am definitely one of your swimmers


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## siobhanwf

slave1 said:


> As what somebody already said: go with the stream....
> Indeed, getting nervous, ancious doesn´t help at the contrary!
> Learn to swim, learn to relax, take a book with you if you go the bank, administrative offices...Learn to shut up or you get lynched. (Only a portugese person can and may talk bad and show critisism about Portugal, if you are a foreigner and altough you have reason they all join against you > I have had and will have this experience for over 100 times)
> 
> 24 years living in this country, 24 years of fustration.............
> Please don´t answer me with the question why I don´t move back to my original country (there is no week we don´t have to hear that...)
> We are stuck!!! And throughly, Portugal IS a very NICE and BEAUTIFULL country.
> 
> After 24 years I think I learned to swim the stream, but sometimes the stream has some wirlhpools and then it´s hard and fustrating!
> 
> Greetings to all the brave swimmers!



Well put :clap2:


And a very warm welcome to the Forum Slave1. Look forward to more of your words of wisdom :clap2:


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## Baltazaar

sharky said:


> Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with some things in Portugal. The way government offices are run, the fact that half the businesses close at lunchtime and many other gripes. The way some Portuguese see expat residents as cash cows etc..
> Am I alone in feeling this way?



I agree with the cash cow. In my 5 years experience in the Algarve the Portuguese are quite aggresive in their dealings especially with theft of land, which is common. My friend is Portuguese and an English solicitor living here after 25 years in London and she predominantly deals with ex pat situations such as the above, or property purchases that have spiralled out of control and ripped off by the Portuguese seller and again by the Portuguese Advogados. Its horrendous. The GNR is another issue that opens another forum with their abuse of the system.


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## weatherwatcher

we also live in Spain and yes it's corrupt and tiresome as we suspect Portugal is, but just remember why you left the UK in the .first place, all the reasons you left are still there. We are thinking of moving to Portugal, the people there seem so much friendlier than the Spanish.


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## siobhanwf

Hi Weatherwatcher and a very warm welcome to the forum. 
Portugal is very different to Spain and really when you come down to it is there a ogvernment that is not corrupt in some form or another.
Having just been back to the UK in the past few weeks I must admit it is not an experience I would want to repeat too often. So if there is a little agravation here I like you remember why I moved here in the first place!!


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## Niamh

anapedrosa said:


> Portugal - what's good, my opinion.
> - the ocean and beeches
> - the rolling hills and the smell of eucalyptus, fig and other delicate fragrances
> - the affordable cafés - a coffee or a beer and a light snack doesn't hurt the budget
> - the pastries - well good until it hits my hips
> - the people who say 'bom dia' and smile at you after you've only been to their shop once or twice
> - the language - I enjoy learning languages and how wonderful to hear the different sounds
> - the architecture, Batalha, Jeronimos
> - the appreciation of poetry - I only hope that I can learn to read well enough to grasp more than the basic appreciation
> 
> My thoughts anyway.


I could not agree more! Tenho tanta saudade!


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## Adam Matthias

Yes, I completely agree... I could add some more to the list..

1. The city squares and having a broken discussion with a group of old men about the best way to cook pork.
2. The blind optimism of Portuguese kids... they think they are immortal.
3. Finding amazing hidden restaurants.
4. Constantly seeing people parking in the strangest of places. (never seen a roundabout used in so many ways.)
5. Driving in Portuguese cities is always a reason to be thankful to be alive... especially at the end of your journey.
6. Being able to leave things unattended and not worry that they will be stolen.
7. Being able to walk home alone without worrying.
8. Laughing at the British when they visit for the football. (a group of Portuguese students upon seeing Birmingham city supporters here in Braga, asked me if all British people were so ugly.)


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## Waterdog

Laughing at the British? You are British!


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## siobhanwf

Adam Matthias said:


> Yes, I completely agree... I could add some more to the list..
> 
> 
> 2. The blind optimism of Portuguese kids... they think they are immortal.
> 
> 
> .)



Well at least they are not fed things on a plate and know that it they walk around the wall of the castle at Obidos if they walk too near the edge they will fall!!! Common sense exists. NOT Health and Safety 

Watching kindergarten kids walking in crocodile holding hands and the coast of the little one on front with only two teachers...one at the front another at the back. NOT one adult per 3 children as in the UK


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## Guest

Weve only been here 2 months but already the things I love
1. My 4 year olds school teacher kisses and hugs all the children hello and goodbye. Would never happen in the UK. So warm and friendly. 
2. How most people you pass in the street says "ola" and "bom dia" even if you have never seen them before.
3 The way here children really are everything, especially the men have a fondness of kids. My baby ( 5 1.2 months)gets so much positive attention. Yesterday in a suermarket, a kind lady bought a soft toy and just gave it to him. So nice, never seen her before. She muttered abiut how beautiful he was and went on her way.
4. The cafe culture, and that you can have a coffee and cake for 1.50 euros.
5. That even though we try to muddle through in broken portuguese, no one seems to mind, and they are happy if they can help you in english.
6. How the sun shines.
7. How uncommercial xmas seems here. Lovely.
8. The beautiful architecture in some areas. And how refreshing it is you dont get stung to pay for parking in many places.
9. The health and safety brigade hasnt quite got here yet. Very refreshing- 4 year old smashing walnuts with hammers. Priceless!

What I dont like
1. The driving. How driving in the middle of the road and stoping on roundabouts is ok. 
2. Dog poop.


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## Adam Matthias

siobhanwf said:


> Well at least they are not fed things on a plate and know that it they walk around the wall of the castle at Obidos if they walk too near the edge they will fall!!! Common sense exists. NOT Health and Safety
> 
> Watching kindergarten kids walking in crocodile holding hands and the coast of the little one on front with only two teachers...one at the front another at the back. NOT one adult per 3 children as in the UK


I completely agree. Kids here are allowed to be kids.


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## slave1

Well, after 25 years of living in Portugal (Beira Alta and Minho) and now 1 year of Spain (Andalucia), I can say one thing: there is a lote wrong in Portugal but it is NOT the worst place to live! And now I'm living in the South of Spain (Andalucia), well after all my complaining "Portugal é fixe !".
I dare to say it is better organized then here in Spain and for shore more human.
"Saudade"? No, I had enough BUT it is in my opinion a better country to live in then Spain.
Spain is a much harder country to live in, Portugal is softer, altough you have a lot of fustrating situations (against wich you should train yourself and try to control your anger and fustration because it will not take you anywhere at the contrary). With all the bad Portugal has, in my opinion, it has more good !!!!


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## travelling-man

It took me a while to settle in but now I have, the only downside to living in Portugal that I battle with is the language which I find dreadfully difficult to learn.... and that of course is my fault.

Other than that, I love everything about it here.


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## haywire

The language can be frustrating at times. My own fault, I really need to make more of an effort.
I speak faltering Portuguese and really do try at all times and I do eventually get my point across and am understood. I find it goes a long way because then when I go wrong the person will help me and then I remember for next time. I play the conversation back in my mind and say the words to myself. 

What I find amusing is when the little children, about 7 and 8 get dropped off at the school gate and their back-packs are bigger than what they are. 

The children play marbles in the playground. That takes me back when I was a kid. Never saw that in the UK.


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## Ash Jez

I'm delighted this thread has taken off again as I've enjoyed reading through it.


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## weatherwatcher

Ash Jez said:


> I'm delighted this thread has taken off again as I've enjoyed reading through it.


I have also been following this thread and look forward to the next instalment as we also are looking to moving to Portugal. My husband and I live and have lived here in Spain in the south east region for 8 years now. We have looked at moving to France but think that it is going to be too cold and too expensive, we've even considered Bulgaria ( it's extremely cheap there ) but can get very cold, plus the fact that it's not as easy or cheap to fly back to the UK to visit family there . We have driven over to Portugal and stayed several times now and even done an exercise of looking at property for sale in different regions. We seem to be of the opinion that we need to be around central Portugal to be able to afford something that we would like and that the climate would be more agreeable. We're used to hot summers, sometimes far too hot, but also very mild winters with plenty of blue skies and sunshine so think that north Portugal would be way too cold. It would be quite nice to be further down in the Algarve and nearer to the Spanish border but there just doesn't seem to be the property for sale there in our price range. We've had our house up for sale here for several years now and it seems that whatever we lower the price to the Spanish want to take it for even lower, so we've come to the conclusion that we may have to look for something over there in Portugal that we could afford to buy from our meagre savings and possibly have to renovate and keep our place here on the market until it sells.We aren't officially retired yet and don't work so have to be careful how we spend our savings as it's what we live on, that plus some very small pensions, so we are forever looking on the internet at property for sale. We would like something not too far from the sea, we have looked around Tomar and Lieria regions, the usual 3 bed 2 bath detached with a garden and within walking distance of a shop or two, I know we're expecting a lot but from what we've seen it can be done for around the 40 to 50,000 euros, or can someone else tell us differently, are we watching pink pigs flying by!!!!!


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## travelling-man

Weatherwatcher

What you want isn't impossible but nor is it easy unless you either want something you can renovate at additional cost OR if you buy an apartment instead of a detached or semi detached house. 

If you can stretch your budget to something in the region of E70K then it gets a lot easier.


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## weatherwatcher

Oh yes, we didn't think we could get something for that price without having to renovate although we have seen the odd property that doesn't look as though they need too much spending on them, I expect they are probably in the middle of nowhere. We do try to follow up where these properties are through google maps etc. We don't want an apartment, we want this to be our last move and for it to be right for us.


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## canoeman

Then don't put yourself in too isolated a place as easy access to amenities becomes more important


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## Ash Jez

weatherwatcher said:


> we have looked around Tomar and Lieria regions, the usual 3 bed 2 bath detached with a garden and within walking distance of a shop or two, I know we're expecting a lot but from what we've seen it can be done for around the 40 to 50,000 euros, or can someone else tell us differently, are we watching pink pigs flying by!!!!!


From me looking as similar I have come to the conclusion that properties at that price would end up costing more than something of perhaps 80,000. Another thing to consider that that the improvements, if adding value, would incur tax on selling with only material cost deductible in on a diy basis. Tax would not be paid though if the money were invested in another property same or greater value. That's my understanding.

Also, in the case of property needing extensive revocations, building licenses etc may or will be required and this I believe will add huge expense to works as they then have to be carried out by licensed tradesmen.

Just my thoughts here.


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## TaxFreeCayman

PRS: Portugal has great weather, great food, people from all over the world, relatively low cost of living outside Lisbon, is part of the EU, great and cheap connection to most European cities, northen Brasil, and eastern USA
CONS: Can not think of any


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## canoeman

Ash Jez said:


> From me looking as similar I have come to the conclusion that properties at that price would end up costing more than something of perhaps 80,000. Another thing to consider that that the improvements, if adding value, would incur tax on selling with only material cost deductible in on a diy basis. Tax would not be paid though if the money were invested in another property same or greater value. That's my understanding.
> 
> Also, in the case of property needing extensive revocations, building licenses etc may or will be required and this I believe will add huge expense to works as they then have to be carried out by licensed tradesmen.
> 
> Just my thoughts here.


Not quite, it's perfectly possible it's what you buy and whether it's a renovation or a property that requires a project, and this is what is difficult to deduce from looking on the internet, unless you've made a few visits and get an understanding of terms used, with the current crisis there are many bargain properties out there as an example I know of a 2+1 bedroomed bungalow that is in good condition, any work required would be personal choice not a necessity, new roof, d/glazed windows, new diesel c/h nice views, decent bit of land, detached garage and it'll probably sell for 65-70,000€.

Adding value possible but difficult to realize in these times, CGT would be liable re-investment of gain only applies to Residents not Non Residents


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## Ash Jez

Canoeman. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned looking on the internet as it is difficult to deduce the actual condition. I could go to about 125K myself but in all honesty, I would prefer something that needed work as I could put my own stamp on the property, it would give me something to do, cost less if possible as a diy job and one would hope, pay for itself in the LONG term. That all said, I wonder how far of the property prices are when sold compared to the advertised price. In the case of some of the cheaper properties, all the red tape would really worry me. Personally, the property you mentioned above would appeal to me if in the right area and especially so as my assets in the UK are dwindling.


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## canoeman

Why should red tape bother you, because a property is cheap doesn't mean there's automatically a problem or any issue with papers, equal problems could arise at any price bracket, it's getting knowledge of the various aspects of Portuguese property, paperwork, classification, land classifications, what can be done with or without a project and on what land.

Property prices off advertised difficult to say but a min of 15% and depends on how much the seller wants to sell, which puts the cash buyer in a good position


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## Ash Jez

Ignorance of my part is what bothers me on the red tape side. I can appreciated that on forums such as this, you read more about problems than the good of property purchases and possible renovations. Sitting here now, and with my current understanding, anything to do with Portuguese property is surrounded with a minefield of can and can't do. Also, the lack of understanding laws and not being able to speak the language adds to the problem for those that are not in the know.

I can appreciate that problems can arise at any price range but having said this, surely at the lower end on the market, the possibility increases. As a matter of interest, in the case of say Remax, when a property is advertised as 1 or more bedrooms, does this suggest that the structure has a current habitation license in place or, does it mean, possible in many cases. I ask this because I wonder how accurate one can consider the marketed property. Perhaps a stupid question from me.


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## travelling-man

One thing you need to bear in mind is that bedrooms in Portuguese houses are often VERY small and what you see advertised as a 4 bedroom house will very often turn into a 2 bedroom house by the time you're finished knocking it about. 

Regarding prices........ Some houses, especially those being sold by Brits etc are negotiable but the Portuguese are very often reluctant to negotiate at all. 

We looked at a place 14 months ago and made a close to asking price offer that was refused and the seller has just now increased his asking price by 25%


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## canoeman

Any registered estate agent like ReMax is bound by law to check the ownership and legality of property before marketing, afraid some do some don't, ReMax is a franchise operation and quality of individual branches depend on owners, I don't agree that price makes any difference, more enlightened agents are starting to state habitation licences etc, those that don't then you need to ask, unfortunately Portuguese Agents don't have a great reputation in replying to enquirers.
You have less chance of making a deal with seller adverting with agencies like ReMax because they have less chance of negotiating a lower commission and commissions are far higher here than UK. 

If you break things down into areas then it all becomes less daunting and therefore easier to understand, this is just a brief introduction but hopefully shows you basics and where you might need to do further research on a property

1. Ownership is proved by 2 papers both called Caderneta Predial one is issued by Financas (relates more to the Tax value of a property) the other by the Conservatoria (National registration of ownership of property, wills, cars, boats etc etc) both list similar information, it's Article number, location, neighbours, description, area, owner/s
2. Caderneta also state designation so it says Caderneta Predial Ubrana etc 
3. Property should have a waiver or a Habitation Licence if it doesn't have either don't buy without making it a condition of purchase i.e sellers responsibility
4. Land Designation there are 5 major classifications
Commercial: Land/are designated for industrial use
Reserve: Protected unlikely to get any sort of permission to renovate, build
Agro Florestal: Land within wooded areas, stricter fire control laws introduced 2007 means stricter conditions on build/renovation etc but decision now by central government not local
Urban: Land designated as building, each Camara has a published PDM areas designated for housing
Rustica: Farmland unlikely to get permissions to build unless a % is within PDM


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## Ash Jez

Travelling-Man. This was interesting and in particular about the offer you made. Out of interest, what percentage below did you offer. I suspect that the situation is that unless you need to release funds, with the interest rate on savings being so low now, monies might as well be tied up in property. Personally, I'd jump at a near offer here in the UK as I can put the released funds to far better use. I don't mean the bank either.


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## travelling-man

I'm going from memory but think we offered 8% less than asking price.


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## Ash Jez

canoeman said:


> Any registered estate agent like ReMax is bound by law to check the ownership and legality of property before marketing


 Seems you are good to be in communication with. Many thanks as goes to others too. Given what you say, can it be presumed that you can determine the probable legality of a property very early on? Also, in the case of Remax being a franchise operation, if one was to source to first agent in line, might that lower the commissions paid by the vendor. Maybe not if worked like multiple agent used by vendors in the UK as commission would be split.

Also, in this great day of internet and the availability for agents to have website, I do wonder why I fail to find more that a handful via the search engines. Perhaps using the Yellow Pages may help, I'm thinking now. 

What is/are published PDM areas?


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## canoeman

No seller in their right mind would give exclusivity to 1 Portuguese agent, ReMax is one of the agencies that insist on exclusivity.

Think your search criteria must be wrong, there's a lot closing but there are hundreds out there* imobiliárias*is the Portuguese for Estate Agents try introducing that into your search term

PDM, Plano Directo Municipal is a plan/ map produced by every Camara that shows land designations within it's boundaries, available online and a useful tool when researching property


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## worldlywanderer

Waterdog said:


> Laughing at the British? You are British!


The mark of the civilized man is his ability to laugh at himself, surely that also applies to nations?

That said I have read, heard and experienced the kind of moans seen here in every country with a significant expat population. It is not an exclusively British think, the Dutch do it, so do the Germans, even the Scandinavians. Is it because the people who moan while living outside their own country are there because they were dissatisfied before they emigrated and are simply people who will always be dissatisfied, wherever they are?

Where I feel the British excel is in the ability they display to dive into things with o planning and then blame everyone else when it goes wrong.


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## DREAMWEAVER1

worldlywanderer said:


> The mark of the civilized man is his ability to laugh at himself, surely that also applies to nations?
> 
> That said I have read, heard and experienced the kind of moans seen here in every country with a significant expat population. It is not an exclusively British think, the Dutch do it, so do the Germans, even the Scandinavians. Is it because the people who moan while living outside their own country are there because they were dissatisfied before they emigrated and are simply people who will always be dissatisfied, wherever they are?
> 
> Where I feel the British excel is in the ability they display to dive into things with o planning and then blame everyone else when it goes wrong.


That's a carefully honed skill,many years of practice!!!

David


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## DREAMWEAVER1

jojo said:


> I'm in the UK at the moment, I have a house here. I dont know how things are in Portugal, but in Spain there are just as many corrupt politicians (probably more and at lower levels of government)a very healthy black market, there are riots, but the police have guns, the paperwork in spain is mindblowing and complicated and as part of the EU, there is just as much PC and strange rules and regs. I suspect Portugal isnt much different
> 
> My point is, by all means leave the UK to go to another country, but dont do it cos you think life is easier! "*The grass is always greener, but it still needs mowing!"
> *
> Jo xxx




...............like it Jo!!!


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## TONY.C

I completely agree with you ROBC. Everything about Britain is becoming a real bore. We can't wait to move to Portugal, having spent some time there on a couple of occasions. We are going out and renting for a year and then look for a place during that time. I think that it is a wonderful place with fantastic people...Roll on January. TC.


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## robc

I am with you Tony........but like any other country or for that matter venture I would always, as most others would, to go in with one´s eyes open, It is easy to be seduced by the climate, wine and sunshine.

We looked hard at all possible avenues, thought hard and decided to build a house here in Portugal. The experience was fabulous and I would not have missed it for the world, but we did not get it all right, we did not, it is very difficult starting with a clean piece of paper, that said I learnt a lot, improved my Portuguese and quickly came to understand Portuguese bureaucracy.

We are now having an extension built, we must be gluttons for punishment


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## LeFranc

*Been seduced by the Azores*

I've been seduced by the climate, the scenery, the friendly people and the simplicity of life on the islands. And I like the house and the acreage that I was able to buy here for a comfortable price. No problems whatsoever so far. Everyone's been great and I reciprocate.


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## 4rivers

Which island seduced you ?


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## LeFranc

Ilha do Pico. I'm new to the Açores though. Tell me more, where do you live, what city are you from the U.K. (interested in the U.K. as well) and how do you like it here in the Açores?


----------



## In 2 bikes

What's bad?

Wasps......

I love tuna...

so do wasps....

I hate wasps......

Can't a chap enjoy his atum salad in the relaxing, outdoor, surroundings of his castle without being rugby tackled by the little blighters? I've actually seen them fly off with chunks of tuna..........


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## LeFranc

The wasps seem to like you.... they rarely sting even if you spray them. Understood: bad = wasps, good = tuna.


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## 4rivers

LeFranc said:


> Ilha do Pico. I'm new to the Açores though. Tell me more, where do you live, what city are you from the U.K. (interested in the U.K. as well) and how do you like it here in the Açores?


Well, actually I don't live there any more, but I did on and off for about 22 years, and I lived on Terceira . In several different places on the island (not all at the same time) I am from , Oxford in the UK.

Pico was a good choice on your part , most of the island people I know, would prefer to live on Pico , if they could . I could never see the attraction - but that's just me, I guess. My advice to you , learn to speak the language . And learn to keep your mouth shut - even when you understand . Sometimes, it is advisable not to appear to understand, too much. 
The Azorians, as a generalization - speak with a forked tongue, and they smile with their teeth , only. 
I loved the Azores - the people not so much , mainly because of their small village mentality . Plus - theft is a way of life, more so ,in these austere times. 
With your house - get security bars fitted , or shutters . If you leave for any length of time (holiday,business etc) also insurance is very important, not just because you are now living in a earthquake zone. Pico can be a bit difficult to get off of , in the winter months . The boat that takes 30 minutes in the summer months to go from Pico to Faial can take several hours in the winter time. Sata can sometimes get bogged down in the winter months due to bad weather, and in the summer , they have a tendency to go on strike . There is a Danish guy (retired electrical engineer) living on Faial - I can point you in his direction if you want. He may be able to advise you , better than I.
But apart from the above Pico , is really nice . Good wine . And they have been pumping EU money into the infrastructure , like it was going out of fashion.
The islands offer you the possibility of a simpler lifestyle.


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## LeFranc

4rivers said:


> Well, actually I don't live there any more, but I did on and off for about 22 years, and I lived on Terceira . In several different places on the island (not all at the same time) I am from , Oxford in the UK.
> 
> Pico was a good choice on your part , most of the island people I know, would prefer to live on Pico , if they could . I could never see the attraction - but that's just me, I guess. My advice to you , learn to speak the language . And learn to keep your mouth shut - even when you understand . Sometimes, it is advisable not to appear to understand, too much.
> The Azorians, as a generalization - speak with a forked tongue, and they smile with their teeth , only.
> I loved the Azores - the people not so much , mainly because of their small village mentality . Plus - theft is a way of life, more so ,in these austere times.
> With your house - get security bars fitted , or shutters . If you leave for any length of time (holiday,business etc) also insurance is very important, not just because you are now living in a earthquake zone. Pico can be a bit difficult to get off of , in the winter months . The boat that takes 30 minutes in the summer months to go from Pico to Faial can take several hours in the winter time. Sata can sometimes get bogged down in the winter months due to bad weather, and in the summer , they have a tendency to go on strike . There is a Danish guy (retired electrical engineer) living on Faial - I can point you in his direction if you want. He may be able to advise you , better than I.
> But apart from the above Pico , is really nice . Good wine . And they have been pumping EU money into the infrastructure , like it was going out of fashion.
> The islands offer you the possibility of a simpler lifestyle.


Thanks for your suggestions and advise. Small town mentality I'm familiar with such mentalities, I think. I've been in extreme situations in small towns in other countries where electricians left open wires for me in my house to get electrocuted in the dark or they cut wires, intentionally mal-installed heat pump to cool in winter or to flood the basement, etc. I hope and am sure on Pico people are much nicer than that. I can deal with any kind of situations without problems. It's their land and that is all they know and I respect that and I respect their privacy and their culture. Naturally I will do my best to learn the language.

From what I read and did research, there are no dangerous earthquakes on Pico itself or they are very rare and the land is so rocky (made up of black and brown volcanic rock and huge boulders and even caves) that I doubt there could be any landslides on the relatively shallow sloped ground. Thefts are not a problems as I have precautions in place and I usually donate things to local people when I don't need them anymore, although sometimes donating triggers... theft. I like to see simple things in life, such a colour of the grass, the soil, the views and the people as they are. Some people are rude or indifferent and that is fine with me, that is natural. Where I grew up people used to push each other in the stores "get off my way" mentality. Noticed that kind of mentality recently in Switzerland. Not a problem, it's even funny to watch or experience it myself.

Regarding getting off the island I expected that and I already kind of knew that I may be stuck on the island for 9 months at a time as they seem to shut down all ferry traffic, but airplanes do fly, afaik.

It's funny how SATA is. They are kind of fine, as long as they get us to the point B safely. Although I experienced a smelly airplane once and the vents did not blow any air from the passenger ceiling panels for the entire flight. It was quite hard to breathe and feeling slightly sick yet the stewardesses did not do anything about it and did not apologise. I've heard that next year 2015 there is more competition opening up for non-Portuguese airlines to fly to and from and between Azores and that will take the prices down significantly.

I would like if you could refer me to the Danish electrical engineer, and I hope he is a good electrician as well. I could use an electrician, a roofer, locksmith etc. that does quality work.


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## 4rivers

LeFranc said:


> Thanks for your suggestions and advise. Small town mentality I'm familiar with such mentalities, I think. I've been in extreme situations in small towns in other countries where electricians left open wires for me in my house to get electrocuted in the dark or they cut wires, intentionally mal-installed heat pump to cool in winter or to flood the basement, etc. I hope and am sure on Pico people are much nicer than that. I can deal with any kind of situations without problems. It's their land and that is all they know and I respect that and I respect their privacy and their culture. Naturally I will do my best to learn the language.
> 
> From what I read and did research, there are no dangerous earthquakes on Pico itself or they are very rare and the land is so rocky (made up of black and brown volcanic rock and huge boulders and even caves) that I doubt there could be any landslides on the relatively shallow sloped ground. Thefts are not a problems as I have precautions in place and I usually donate things to local people when I don't need them anymore, although sometimes donating triggers... theft. I like to see simple things in life, such a colour of the grass, the soil, the views and the people as they are. Some people are rude or indifferent and that is fine with me, that is natural. Where I grew up people used to push each other in the stores "get off my way" mentality. Noticed that kind of mentality recently in Switzerland. Not a problem, it's even funny to watch or experience it myself.
> 
> Regarding getting off the island I expected that and I already kind of knew that I may be stuck on the island for 9 months at a time as they seem to shut down all ferry traffic, but airplanes do fly, afaik.
> 
> It's funny how SATA is. They are kind of fine, as long as they get us to the point B safely. Although I experienced a smelly airplane once and the vents did not blow any air from the passenger ceiling panels for the entire flight. It was quite hard to breathe and feeling slightly sick yet the stewardesses did not do anything about it and did not apologise. I've heard that next year 2015 there is more competition opening up for non-Portuguese airlines to fly to and from and between Azores and that will take the prices down significantly.
> 
> I would like if you could refer me to the Danish electrical engineer, and I hope he is a good electrician as well. I could use an electrician, a roofer, locksmith etc. that does quality work.


 




As far as professional tradesmen are concerned, they are not malicious, the only problem you may have, is finding a professional electrician, plumber etc. Some people may say they have the skills - when in actual fact, their main occupation is fishing or herding cows. I do not say this to be mean . There has been a great influx of construction personnel in recent years - for EU funded projects. I would suggest you ask at your local council - or look in the yellow pages, for trades people - and then ask around, about them - this may appear to be a simplistic answer - but it is not intended to be. ( I once had a punctured tyre repaired, and noted that the mechanic , repaired the tyre and inflated it, but left the nail in , I presumed this was because he wanted repeat business) 

Giving things away - I would think twice about that - the Azorians as a generalization - if you give a finger , they will take your whole arm, and possibly your leg, as well. Not everyone is like that - but a lot are, especially if they think you have money. 

Sata are expensive - but they have a fairly good track record, concerning inter island flights - I wouldn't hold your breath, for a competitive airline to put in an appearance any time soon. While the EU has been pumping money into the islands for tourism - the regional and Portuguese governments have so far resisted , opening up the air, to foreign competition - even though, if they did, ticket prices would go down by a quoted 30%. The Portuguese government like to have their cake, and also eat it. They own a big chunk of TAP, who own a big chunk of Sata, if not all of it. 
When buying an air ticket, either do it online or if using a local travel agency - remind them, that you are a resident and want resident rates , not tourist rates. Do not let them screw you - they will, if they can. 

Pico - earthquakes , well I don't know - but Faial and the other islands, make up for it . I remember lying in bed one Sunday morning on Terceira , and watching the wall ripple - it was slightly unnerving. There are supposedly 60 earthquakes a day, among the islands, almost all of them, to small to notice. 

The colour of the grass is green all year round, although the shades of green do change. It was the change of the seasons, that most effected me - or the apparent lack of change. But the air is clean and fresh , and the sea is never far away - and there is a certain magic, when sitting in a darkened room , with the rain hammering the window panes, looking out over a boiling sea, with lightening and the crash of thunder , lighting up, a distant horizon. 

My friend on Faial - well he is past the stage, of doing any electrical work himself, but send me an email to [email protected] , with the subject line, Pico. And I will give you contact information . Telephone, email etc. He should be able to advise you on trades people . 

People - I recently attended the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate (Ieper - Belgium) and was disgusted, with other British people who also attended - who thought they had the right , to push and shove themselves to the front, on any lame excuse, irrespective , that they arrived late. The Dutch are not much better. My country has a long tradition of queuing up, and waiting for their turn - so do the Portuguese. But it would seem that Bob Dylan was right - the times are a changing . The ******s are everywhere.


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## LeFranc

Thanks a lot. I will write later. In the meantime please listen to this music:


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## DREAMWEAVER1

*Likes & dislikes*

We have retired in Central Portugal for almost 12 months,so have seen most seasons advantages/disadvantages 

Likes:

The Portuguese in general and our neighbours specifically.
The Spring,Summer and Autumn weather.
The general slower pace of life when compared to the UK.
The ability of the Portuguese Euro to enable our Sterling to stretch much further.
The expat community spirit...."we are all in the same boat,so let's make it work together"
The fabulous mountain scenery.

Dislikes:

The damp Winters.
The covering of red dust over most objects inside or outside.
The woeful inconsistency of our water supply.
The poor road surfaces.
The inordinate queuing / waiting where anything Camara related is concerned.
and finally.......PT!!!

David


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## travelling-man

David

I agree with most of what you say, especially the likes but where in the central zone are you?

We're close to Figueiro Dos Vinhos/Pedrogao Grande and I find the camaras in those areas pretty good..... especially if you pick your time to visit.

Also got no real complaints about the roads but that said, we did come from Africa and compared to the roads there, the roads here are marvellous!


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## DREAMWEAVER1

:nono:


travelling-man said:


> David
> 
> I agree with most of what you say, especially the likes but where in the central zone are you?
> 
> We're close to Figueiro Dos Vinhos/Pedrogao Grande and I find the camaras in those areas pretty good..... especially if you pick your time to visit.
> 
> Also got no real complaints about the roads but that said, we did come from Africa and compared to the roads there, the roads here are marvellous!


Hi TM,

We are living near to Pousaflores,between Ansiao and Alvaiziere,a lovely spot,wouldn't now change where we live with anywhere else!!


David


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## travelling-man

OK gotcha.

We must be luckier with our roads in this neck of the woods........ potholes are almost as rare as hen's teeth here and when they do occur, they get fixed PDQ.


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## DREAMWEAVER1

On the road to Ansiao,there is a major "dip" in the road due to subsidence,taken too fast and you take off,instead of excavating and remaking the road to a level standard,it's cheaper to erect a sign,informing you of a "major dip in the road ahead."



Oh well,I know it's there,but others maybe less fortunate and damage either themselves or the vehicles suspension,or both!!!!




David


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## Vilamoura

I have read this thread with Interest as I sold up and moved to Portugal only 2 months ago, I found the house purchasing process to be fairly simple and understandable and setting up bank accounts, insurance etc. To be trouble free. The only exception to this is EDP who seem to try their damndest to make life as difficult as possible, I have worked in Angola for 8 years and Brazil for 6 years so the language is not a problem, it just seems to me that as they are the only electricity provider they have no incentive to make things easier. I think that bringing in a competitor would encourage them to actually try to provide a service. 
Regarding the Portuguese people I have found them to be the nicest and friendliest people I have encountered anywhere in the world (until they get into their cars, when they drive 10cm from your rear bumper and try to drive you off the road) All in all strongly feel that we have made the right choice in moving to Portugal, it is a fantastic country and has so much to offer. If you are debating moving over here I would say go ahead, you will love it.


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## 2ctdiamond

Most things are good for me but the thing I find hard to deal with is the noise. Barking dogs, loud music, people shouting instead of talking - but I think I am very sensitive to noise


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## smudges

I've been wondering how all the 'calm' and 'peaceful' villages described in property listings can be like that with all the comments I've read about barking dogs!


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## Maggy Crawford

Totally agree abut barking dogs - they are a menace in rural areas. People have them instead of doorbells!
Also, you will have to get used to the ubiquitous Portuguese television which is absolute rubbish. It is on permanently in restaurants, bars, waiting rooms of any kind including hospitals and, if you are really unfortunate, in hospital wards themselves where people are trying to rest and recuperate. A friend of ours was telling us just yesterday of his experience in Coimbra (wonderful hospital by the way - see other posts) where he was trying to recuperate after a triple heart bypass in a ward where the TV was on football 15 hours a day, with the volume up high, just for the benefit of one patient and the nurse sided with him over the three other patients who did not want it one because he kept coming in to watch.


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## azoreseuropa

Maggy Crawford said:


> Totally agree abut barking dogs - they are a menace in rural areas. People have them instead of doorbells!
> Also, you will have to get used to the ubiquitous Portuguese television which is absolute rubbish. It is on permanently in restaurants, bars, waiting rooms of any kind including hospitals and, if you are really unfortunate, in hospital wards themselves where people are trying to rest and recuperate. A friend of ours was telling us just yesterday of his experience in Coimbra (wonderful hospital by the way - see other posts) where he was trying to recuperate after a triple heart bypass in a ward where the TV was on football 15 hours a day, with the volume up high, just for the benefit of one patient and the nurse sided with him over the three other patients who did not want it one because he kept coming in to watch.


Actually, people are a menace and not a dogs.


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## Maggy Crawford

I challenge you to try and negotiate with the owners here!


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## Umpers

They aren't cheap, though....


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