# starting a business here - small



## marenostrum

I am planning on starting a small business here, nothing too fancy, just to keep me occupied during the day and make a little bit of money. I have been reading a lot over the past four months on how things work here, I have been asking my eg friends too how things work in employment here. I have also been reading books on taxations, work rights etc etc to get an idea. However I have two questions to which I don’t seem too sure of the answer:

1)	any decent financial adviser here? I am not after someone to look after my previous earnings, I’ve got these sorted on my own and tbh my experience of Fas in Europe is poor. I am after someone that can advise on taxation, business setup from the point of view of laws, regs etc etc

2)	What motivates Egyptian employees? Money? Status? Do they like to be busy or just happy with a 9 till 5? Carrot and stick or just stick?

My business would involve a couple of admin people and some manual workers to give you an idea.

I am not worried about working in business here, I am from naples so no cultural shock for me….but I need some tips on FA and how to deal with eg employees on a daily basis.


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## MensEtManus

Just to help on the taxation concept here: Taxation here is tricky. Let me explain, pre 2002, the tax folks would arbitrarily decide how much you should pay by year end. For example, you said your net income was 100, they multiply it by 2000%. Then you go into a negotiation process and end up paying around 50% more. Post 2002, they decided to actually believe your net income numbers + 5%-10%. Technically, the taxes are considered audited for all income tax returns submitted up until 2005 (the law automatically approves anything that passed 5 years). 

In terms of answering your questions

1) I've found myself teaching accountants the ABCs of math. Of course maybe I haven't had the opportunity to find one decent accountant here in Alexandria. 

2) I have no idea. However, I've split their salary in various categories due to the fact that no one wants to work. So I've done things like "attendance bonus +200LE, production bonus +(based on production), wearing the uniform everyday +10LE, clean station everyday 5LE and so on." I also split paying the salary on two days (1st of the month and 15th of the month). The reason behind splitting the salary is because the turnover of workers is incredible, so if they decide to leave after getting the 1st of month, I don't pay the 15th of the month. Everyone I hire is on a short-term contract. I've hired thousands of folks and to be honest, I have no idea what motivates them. I've tried so many things, but at the end, I've found that everyone simply wants to sit on their butts, do nothing and get a monthly "allowance"....


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## MaidenScotland

They love a title...


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## MaidenScotland

Don't forget when you employ someone here they really do have a "closed shop" mentality.. no one does their job and no way will they do the job of someone else regardless that they might be sitting on their butts doing nothing and a job needs doing. My drivers do not clean the car.. that is the boabs job, my waiter doesn't clean windows.. despite the fact he has had no one to wait on for 5 years!!! . They are always astonished when they see me role up my sleeves and they then watch me clean the car.


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## marenostrum

thanks for the tips.

Rather than a carrot and a stick it looks like i'll need a steel bar to keep them in check!!

How about the graduates, do you find them any good? I know a few and some of them speak 350 languages and they seem clued up on general culture including the females, but are they any good in a working environment.

Thanks to the guy who is in alex, i take it you are in a factory development or manufactoring role of some sort, I'm leaning towards a small firm sort of business but if thats the culture then i will have the same issues whether it is a factory or a building site....


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> thanks for the tips.
> 
> Rather than a carrot and a stick it looks like i'll need a steel bar to keep them in check!!
> 
> How about the graduates, do you find them any good? I know a few and some of them speak 350 languages and they seem clued up on general culture including the females, but are they any good in a working environment.
> 
> Thanks to the guy who is in alex, i take it you are in a factory development or manufactoring role of some sort, I'm leaning towards a small firm sort of business but if thats the culture then i will have the same issues whether it is a factory or a building site....




Of ciourse they are clued up on general culture.. they are Egyptians,.
If you employ a graduate straight from uni you will have to move out of your office and give it to him... he has been to uni


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## bat

MaidenScotland said:


> Don't forget when you employ someone here they really do have a "closed shop" mentality.. no one does their job and no way will they do the job of someone else regardless that they might be sitting on their butts doing nothing and a job needs doing. My drivers do not clean the car.. that is the boabs job, my waiter doesn't clean windows.. despite the fact he has had no one to wait on for 5 years!!! . They are always astonished when they see me role up my sleeves and they then watch me clean the car.


Yes think it's the same everywhere,
Every know and again I role up my sleeves and clean the guest bathroom at work, and when I do that, they are on there toes as any one who says no that's not my job gets a blasting.


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## MaidenScotland

bat said:


> Yes think it's the same everywhere,
> Every know and again I role up my sleeves and clean the guest bathroom at work, and when I do that, they are on there toes as any one who says no that's not my job gets a blasting.




I give a blasting too but it water of a ducks back.

I told a driver to go to the airport to pick someone up he told me it wasn't his job.. he was the "shopper" but as all the other drivers were busy I had told him he was to do it.. cut a long story short I asked him if it was my job? He did go but he was not happy about it..


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> Of ciourse they are clued up on general culture.. they are Egyptians,.
> If you employ a graduate straight from uni you will have to move out of your office and give it to him... he has been to uni


ah ah. Wait till i tell them i left school at 14, they'll try and rob me of my business just on the basis of their degree 

Mind you a lot of the graduates i have met in me life think they have a god given right to a top job straight away, i don't think it is just an eg problem.

Maiden one last question, do they have these stupid employment tribunals here like they have in UK?


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## bat

MaidenScotland said:


> Of ciourse they are clued up on general culture.. they are Egyptians,.
> If you employ a graduate straight from uni you will have to move out of your office and give it to him... he has been to uni


What! You think you can 
a, afford a graduate
B, that they will turn up
LOL
Would it not be good experience of the " work place culture" to work in the field your looking at for 2 weeks or so just to get a general feel .
Bat


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> ah ah. Wait till i tell them i left school at 14, they'll try and rob me of my business just on the basis of their degree
> 
> Mind you a lot of the graduates i have met in me life think they have a god given right to a top job straight away, i don't think it is just an eg problem.
> 
> Maiden one last question, do they have these stupid employment tribunals here like they have in UK?




Not that I am aware of...


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## bat

marenostrum said:


> ah ah. Wait till i tell them i left school at 14, they'll try and rob me of my business just on the basis of their degree
> 
> Mind you a lot of the graduates i have met in me life think they have a god given right to a top job straight away, i don't think it is just an eg problem.
> 
> Maiden one last question, do they have these stupid employment tribunals here like they have in UK?


Yes they do and, there's always someone who knows all the rules, of course there are ways around this but in this new climate!!


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## bat

marenostrum said:


> ah ah. Wait till i tell them i left school at 14, they'll try and rob me of my business just on the basis of their degree
> 
> Mind you a lot of the graduates i have met in me life think they have a god given right to a top job straight away, i don't think it is just an eg problem.
> 
> Maiden one last question, do they have these stupid employment tribunals here like they have in UK?


If you tell them you left school at 14, graduates won't work for you!
Bat


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## marenostrum

bat said:


> What! You think you can
> a, afford a graduate
> B, that they will turn up
> LOL
> Would it not be good experience of the " work place culture" to work in the field your looking at for 2 weeks or so just to get a general feel .
> Bat


no not for me, i don't need / want to work for others now even though i understand why you suggested it. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on viewpoints ) i come from a place which is very similar to Cairo for many things so i am aware that they'll try and scam me as much as they can.

I'm not going to put too much money in it anyway at least at the start so if it goes all wrong (which is a high chance i am aware of that) no harm done.

At the end of the day if people complain about there not being any job and they are lazy what the hell are they on about?? As I said before the average egyptian (i mean the ones that have been to sec school and uni seem clued up to me but of course that does not mean they are ready for work).


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## bat

marenostrum said:


> no not for me, i don't need / want to work for others now even though i understand why you suggested it. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on viewpoints ) i come from a place which is very similar to Cairo for many things so i am aware that they'll try and scam me as much as they can.
> 
> I'm not going to put too much money in it anyway at least at the start so if it goes all wrong (which is a high chance i am aware of that) no harm done.
> 
> At the end of the day if people complain about there not being any job and they are lazy what the hell are they on about?? As I said before the average egyptian (i mean the ones that have been to sec school and uni seem clued up to me but of course that does not mean they are ready for work).


No didn't mean scam etc 
But just to understand the work culture, it self , there attitude etc, factory workers different social group from office workers, who are different from shop workers etc.
As for uni,
Uni, BUE,AUC, etc, so expensive, that parents are back in the money when they finish, so it's cheap at that point to let them stay in bed all day and party all night.
The poor things need there rest, and there far to clever to work in a company , oh my goodness, never.


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## MensEtManus

ahh - welcome to what I find hilarious about the whole unemployment issue. They do not like the jobs being offered. They all want to be presidents at the age of 21. 

Uni graduates are a pain. First of all, they like titles. 
1) You are expected to call a 21 year old boy "Eng. XXX"
2) The uni grad expects: a desk, an air condition, a computer, etc
3) The uni grad knows more than you and on his first day on the job will tell you that everything you are doing is wrong and you should listen to his opinions
4) You try to explain to the uni grad, it is your first day, you should listen for a month and then contribute ideas.
5) He asks to get the manual for the machine or the autocad drawings, etc. You explain to him that you created the machine and guidelines are posted on the machine. However, he should simply just listen and learn from his trainer
6) He says, I cannot learn from an unedcuated trainer who is not an engineer. 
7) The uni grad continues to pester you with annoying comments. Again, you say, it is your first day, just listen and follow. Do not talk. 
8) He quits
9) He files a complain against you for misconduct 
10) His uncle from his mother side has a cousin who knows a girl whose uncle is a XXXX and that person tries to harm you in some way..


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## bat

MensEtManus said:


> ahh - welcome to what I find hilarious about the whole unemployment issue. They do not like the jobs being offered. They all want to be presidents at the age of 21.
> 
> Uni graduates are a pain. First of all, they like titles.
> 1) You are expected to call a 21 year old boy "Eng. XXX"
> 2) The uni grad expects: a desk, an air condition, a computer, etc
> 3) The uni grad knows more than you and on his first day on the job will tell you that everything you are doing is wrong and you should listen to his opinions
> 4) You try to explain to the uni grad, it is your first day, you should listen for a month and then contribute ideas.
> 5) He asks to get the manual for the machine or the autocad drawings, etc. You explain to him that you created the machine and guidelines are posted on the machine. However, he should simply just listen and learn from his trainer
> 6) He says, I cannot learn from an unedcuated trainer who is not an engineer.
> 7) The uni grad continues to pester you with annoying comments. Again, you say, it is your first day, just listen and follow. Do not talk.
> 
> 8) He quits
> 9) He files a complain against you for misconduct
> 10) His uncle from his mother side has a cousin who knows a girl whose uncle is a XXXX and that person tries to harm you in some way..


Well you were lucky , they worked a full day, I've had people just leave after a couple of hours just left or don't come back after lunch, we had 1 guy couple of weeks ago came in for a days pay, he started and left on same day, no body knew who he was, but stayed and pestered till he got 1 days wages.
Girls, don't Evan bother letting them in the door.


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## expatagogo

Managing Egyptians is next to impossible if you are a woman managing men.

The only way to get them to listen is to shame them. I had to learn the hard way, and I didn't like it, but a public chewing out was necessary to get them to do the job I wanted them to do, the way I wanted them to do it, and get it done when I wanted it done. Yes, "Management by Screaming" was the low I had to resort to.

And women? Well, as much as I'm all about girl power, don't count on them staying for any length of time. The minute the wedding party happens, she's probably out of there. If she holds on for any length of time, it will only be until the day she finds out she's pregnant, when it becomes "too dangerous" to work.


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## bat

expatagogo said:


> Managing Egyptians is next to impossible if you are a woman managing men.
> 
> The only way to get them to listen is to shame them. I had to learn the hard way, and I didn't like it, but a public chewing out was necessary to get them to do the job I wanted them to do, the way I wanted them to do it, and get it done when I wanted it done. Yes, "Management by Screaming" was the low I had to resort to.
> 
> And women? Well, as much as I'm all about girl power, don't count on them staying for any length of time. The minute the wedding party happens, she's probably out of there. If she holds on for any length of time, it will only be until the day she finds out she's pregnant, when it becomes "too dangerous" to work.


Yes , did the shouting only the once, thought he was going to get his gun and shoot me( ex army mad as a hatter and pathological liar to boot ) but he walked out.
I'm still not sure he that he won't come back and shoot me!


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## expatagogo

I'll leave being Christian and managing Muslims alone, but that's also an issue to be aware of.


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> I'll leave being Christian and managing Muslims alone, but that's also an issue to be aware of.




How could I forget that can of worms.

Not sure if these figures are still correct..or even if the rule still stands but I expect ti does 

11 or more employees ... you have to provide a room/area for prayers.


for every expat you employ you must employ 9 Egyptians.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> 11 or more employees ... you have to provide a room/area for prayers.


And allow them time to wash before prayers, which aren't limited to current prayer time, but for making up early morning prayers that they slept through.

Of course a hot cup of tea immediately after, then another glass of tea because chugging tea at work is an art form.

Productivity is not an Egyptian strongsuit.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> How could I forget that can of worms.
> 
> Not sure if these figures are still correct..or even if the rule still stands but I expect ti does
> 
> 11 or more employees ... you have to provide a room/area for prayers.
> 
> 
> for every expat you employ you must employ 9 Egyptians.



I was thinking more along the lines of having rocks for brains just because of religion....


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## bat

expatagogo said:


> I'll leave being Christian and managing Muslims alone, but that's also an issue to be aware of.


Yes bit of a minefield, and you can never get it right, best way religion not allowed to rear it's head, from any side.


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## marenostrum

bat said:


> No didn't mean scam etc
> But just to understand the work culture, it self , there attitude etc, factory workers different social group from office workers, who are different from shop workers etc.
> As for uni,
> Uni, BUE,AUC, etc, so expensive, that parents are back in the money when they finish, so it's cheap at that point to let them stay in bed all day and party all night.
> The poor things need there rest, and there far to clever to work in a company , oh my goodness, never.


I know what you mean. Since i've been here i have been out at night and stuff and everywhere i go i see these eg youth partying all the time, you wonder where they get their money from considering it is a poor country. The amount of alchol i have seen consumed by these in short periods of time easily beats hands down what you see in a salford pub in the nw of england...
ah sorry they are muslims, not supposed to drink are they......


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## marenostrum

bat said:


> Girls, don't Evan bother letting them in the door.


Can you elaborate?


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> How could I forget that can of worms.
> 
> Not sure if these figures are still correct..or even if the rule still stands but I expect ti does
> 
> 11 or more employees ... you have to provide a room/area for prayers.
> 
> 
> for every expat you employ you must employ 9 Egyptians.


I've seen this in the uk too. Did some work for a local council, prayer room and all allowed for the workers plus time off PAID.


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## expatagogo

marenostrum said:


> Can you elaborate?


I reached the point I would only hire engaged men because the upcoming marriage, and trying to gather the money together to get married, motivated them. Married men didn't have to save or impress her family anymore. Women worked either until the wedding party or until they got pregnant. I did have one who stayed but offering to pay for a nanny onsite wasn't enough to get her to return.


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## expatagogo

We also bought a fingerprint scanner because they would falsify the salary book ("A" for "Absent" became "Amr").


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> We also bought a fingerprint scanner because they would falsify the salary book ("A" for "Absent" became "Amr").




I know a company that hasone of those finger print machines... it was amazing the complaints in the early days about it not working properly and didn't register someone as clocked in.. simple solution told to the people concerned... if you are not clocked in you will not get paid...in reality they were late and tried the old it's broken routine and of course the machine has worked fine since.


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## MaidenScotland

Egyptians can fix anything and fix it from nothing.
Egyptians can see an opportunity and take it when others can't.
Egyptians are very resourceful.

So why is this country in the mess it is?


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## MensEtManus

I agree with the girl issue. I prefer females over males; however, they only think of one thing "marriage." Once the opportunity of getting married appears, the girl quits. Rarely do they ever return. 

The males come to the workplace to:
1) not work
2) steal
3) hook up with girls
4) do drugs
5) if 1,2,3,4 fail, he quits


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## marenostrum

bloody hell, the picture is pretty dire.
Looks like i'll need to get old Piotr from Varsaw here to get any work done.
I though they might be lazy and that but stuff like drugs on work premises no way i'm having this crap even if it costs money to get someone from abroad, which is probably why these firms need expats to run them.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> bloody hell, the picture is pretty dire.
> Looks like i'll need to get old Piotr from Varsaw here to get any work done.
> I though they might be lazy and that but stuff like drugs on work premises no way i'm having this crap even if it costs money to get someone from abroad, which is probably why these firms need expats to run them.




exactly as I told you the other day.. we expats are paid for expertise plus the fact we go to work to work and also go when we are ill.. I had an operation on the Thursday and was back at work on the Sunday my doctor told me, an Egyptian would not be up out of her bed yet.


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## expatagogo

At risk of appearing to "bash Egypt," you asked and the honest answer is you'll have to plan for higher overhead, particularly salaries and, yes, theft than you would with a western company. This includes overscheduling because it's simply not smart to depend on staff to show up. As MS said, they will not cover for absent co-workers and if asked (or told to) the answer will be "I can't" and if pressed "I refuse". Docking salaries for absenteeism isn't much help because they do the math and decide losing a few LE isn't such a big deal. 

Married women bring their own set of challenges. Most often the husband will bring her to interview, which is understandable because he's concerned about the work environment. However, she isn't going to take - or keep - the position without his permission and he will be right up in salary negotiations. If there comes a day that he makes her sad, she will spend her time at work crying and everyone she works with will drop what they're doing to console her through it. If there's a marital squabble, expect her to be fielding calls on her mobile from the husband and the family and the nieghbors and the grocer and anyone else who might be interested in butting in, particularly if either spouse has said the "divorce" word. The duration of her employment will be consumed with the husband in the background, threatening to revoke his permission for her to work. Regardless, he will constantly call her at work. Constantly. Creepy constantly. 

Broken engagements require several days of permitted mourning, with a steady stream of calls on their mobile. 

These things are the reason why, no matter what business you walk into, there are far more people on site than there is work to do. It's tough.


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## marenostrum

expatagogo said:


> Broken engagements require several days of permitted mourning, with a steady stream of calls on their mobile.
> 
> These things are the reason why, no matter what business you walk into, there are far more people on site than there is work to do. It's tough.


No worries, every opinion is appreciated.
I know how egyptian women mind works (or not works depending on viewpoint ) so this would be nothing new.

But I found the point about the co workers not covering very interesting. I take it then than teamwork isn't their strong point?
Basically i would have to kick their a....s from the word go thats it in a nutshell isn't it.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> No worries, every opinion is appreciated.
> I know how egyptian women mind works (or not works depending on viewpoint ) so this would be nothing new.
> 
> But I found the point about the co workers not covering very interesting. I take it then than teamwork isn't their strong point?
> Basically i would have to kick their a....s from the word go thats it in a nutshell isn't it.




Lol read the posts again... it doesn't matter what you say or do they will basically do their own thing.. do you think we have not tried to kick ass? You are new to Egypt and will be new to employing people here.. they have a system in place that millions contribute to and they are not going to change it any day soon and more so to make a foreigner money.. you will roll over before they do.
Did we tell you that people come to work and expect to sit and eat their breakfast before they start work? Ramadan... another nightmare.. basically the whole country shuts down for a month but they have to be paid... then Eide and they will be looking for gifts


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> Did we tell you that people come to work and expect to sit and eat their breakfast before they start work? Ramadan... another nightmare.. basically the whole country shuts down for a month but they have to be paid... then Eide and they will be looking for gifts


And for you to reach into your wallet for every engagement party, wedding party, new baby, and funeral that comes along.

I learned, quite quickly, why Egyptians go to the west and become taxi drivers. Part of it is lacking the skill set required to do other work, but there's a large part of me that believes it's because it's a job they can do and still feel like they're getting paid to _sit_.

Shall I go on about the Egyptian who believes they can do your job better than you, thus they want it, and will undermine you at every opportunity?


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## aykalam

expatagogo said:


> At risk of appearing to "bash Egypt,"...


:drum:

you reckon? why would anybody think so?


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## expatagogo

aykalam said:


> :drum:
> 
> you reckon? why would anybody think so?


If Egyptian law allowed me to employ a full staff of foreigners, that's what I would have done.

I think I've laid out some - not all, but some - of my reasons quite well.


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## aykalam

expatagogo said:


> If Egyptian law allowed me to employ a full staff of foreigners, that's what I would have done.
> 
> I think I've laid out some - not all, but some - of my reasons quite well.


you definitely have


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## expatagogo

marenostrum said:


> But I found the point about the co workers not covering very interesting. I take it then than teamwork isn't their strong point?
> Basically i would have to kick their a....s from the word go thats it in a nutshell isn't it.


Hiking a suit of furniture up the side of a building on a rope requires teamwork, so the concept is not something they aren't familiar with and they certainly can accomplish things as a group.

What they will not do is anything outside of their specific job title and its associated description. If there is someone absent on the same job title level, it's possible to coax them into doing the absent person's job, but that costs extra. :eyebrows:


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> Lol read the posts again... it doesn't matter what you say or do they will basically do their own thing.. do you think we have not tried to kick ass? You are new to Egypt and will be new to employing people here.. they have a system in place that millions contribute to and they are not going to change it any day soon and more so to make a foreigner money.. you will roll over before they do.
> Did we tell you that people come to work and expect to sit and eat their breakfast before they start work? Ramadan... another nightmare.. basically the whole country shuts down for a month but they have to be paid... then Eide and they will be looking for gifts


For me a lot of this stuff i have seen it already where i come from, obviously not to this extent.
In the south of italy too you find a lot of these traits, certainly the italian mother in law = egyptian mother in law going back to Expatgoo's previous post.
Again the ramadam thing, italy shuts down in august so nothing gets done there either.

i know it is hard work from what you are telling me but my background is different from yours, i am not of anglosaxon origin like you guys here, you have a different mentality. I am probably half way between you and the egyptians, more byzanthine to use a word to describe it.

But yes in my short time here i have realized a lot of these people are a pain in the .... to do any business with.
I was in sharm a few weeks back and ina the hotel where i was staying they were about fifteen gardeners clearing the weeds on some grass, you are talking about 20 sqm at the most, one was pulling the weeds whilst looking at the german women whilst the other 14 were looking in space.....


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## expatagogo

belalismail said:


> i can help you with point 2 only
> 2) Egyptians care about money the most " they are not happy with 9 to 5 " but they just work for making money for life and they know most salaries aren't high " depending on experiences years and certifications but still relative low ) so most of them say what can i do that is my country XD


Surely they care about money, and rightly so. Unless we were born wealthy, we all have to.

Perhaps it's just my western mentality, but if someone needs/wants a job, and you give them a job, getting them to do that job shouldn't be like herding cats.

I have an Egyptian business partner, a really good fellow. We're launching a new little side business that pays on a per-piece basis (no _correct_ production, no pay). It's something they can do from home, which alleviates a host of management issues. I have my fingers crossed.


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