# Petitions CAN make a difference



## Jasmina (Sep 5, 2012)

Hurray! A second petition has forced a change for the good: this time the govt has changed it's mind over mortgage default and bank repossession of homes. This happened because sufficient people signed a petition and the govt is forced by the constitution to assent. A small step towards social justice but a large step in citizen empowerment


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Jasmina said:


> Hurray! A second petition has forced a change for the good: this time the govt has changed it's mind over mortgage default and bank repossession of homes. This happened because sufficient people signed a petition and the govt is forced by the constitution to assent. A small step towards social justice but a large step in citizen empowerment


Hi,
Before mrypg9 gets in here I think I should say that I think it was the number of suicides that really made the difference, the latest one by a couple in Majorca yesterday. The PP really couldn't vote against in light of this recent news without negative feedback, so they voted yes.
PP does U-turn on eviction initiative in Congress | In English | EL PAÍS
I do believe petitions serve their purpose by keeping the issue, whatever it is, in the public eye, and also by letting those in power know that people haven't forgotten about some things that they would rather brush under the carpet. However, I don't think it's the petition itself that makes politicians change their minds.


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## Jasmina (Sep 5, 2012)

I would like to think the suicides influenced the govt but the recent ones were only the latest in a succession which have had little impact so far. My point was that the Spanish constitution says that if a sufficient number of citizens express their opinions on a matter the govt has to take action.....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Jasmina said:


> I would like to think the suicides influenced the govt but the recent ones were only the latest in a succession which have had little impact so far. My point was that the Spanish constitution says that if a sufficient number of citizens express their opinions on a matter the govt has to take action.....


Really?
I didn't know that!

Didn't make any difference in the war against Iraq when smth like 96% were against...


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## Jasmina (Sep 5, 2012)

Spanish property - Spain jobs - Spanish news - think-SPAIN.com has detailed story and passing reference to role of public opinion


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Jasmina said:


> Spanish property - Spain jobs - Spanish news - think-SPAIN.com has detailed story and passing reference to role of public opinion


Thanks!
I'll try find out more because as far as I understand the PP were going to vote against this, and they must have known about the number of signatures on the petition, so I'm not really sure how it all fits together.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It would be interesting to find if the Spanish Constitution does contain such a law.

Frankly, I doubt it. It is difficult to ascertain the validity of peitions, especially internet ones as the voting can be manipulated. It is also difficult, if not wrong and undemocratic, for a government to rule by petition. Elections, not petitions, are or should be the real means for bringing about change. Petitions are usually started by interest groups and focus on single issues. What if the petition were for something silly? It could happen.

That website doesn't look 'serious' to me... I'd like to see the Article/Paragraph whatever from the Constitution itself.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It would be interesting to find if the Spanish Constitution does contain such a law.
> 
> Frankly, I doubt it. It is difficult to ascertain the validity of peitions, especially internet ones as the voting can be manipulated. It is also difficult, if not wrong and undemocratic, for a government to rule by petition. Elections, not petitions, are or should be the real means for bringing about change. Petitions are usually started by interest groups and focus on single issues. What if the petition were for something silly? It could happen.
> 
> That website doesn't look 'serious' to me... I'd like to see the Article/Paragraph whatever from the Constitution itself.


so much of the info on that site is out of date/wrong/misleading 

just going by the 'clubs' section, a lot of the info for my town is totally wrong...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> so much of the info on that site is out of date/wrong/misleading
> 
> just going by the 'clubs' section, a lot of the info for my town is totally wrong...


I do remember smth about # of signatures so I'm speculating that there are 2 possibilities
a - You have to collect a said number of signatures before the petition can be handed into a government body
b- There have to be a certain number of signatures for the cause to be brought to debate by the government.
I've looked at several Spanish petition sites and see nothing about # of signatures


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

When you think about it, you could have all sorts of daft petitions, like ' Antonio Banderas for Prime Minister' or similar. There are enough loonies and airheads around to sign that kind of thing.

My other objection is that it's all too easy to think you've committed a 'political act' by simply putting your name to a petition. Like many people, I am bombarded on a daily basis with requests to join this 'Cause' or sign this petition about topics from animal cruelty to fgm to free bus passes for disabled veterans. I know sod-all about most of these topics and have no interest in many of them so I hit the 'delete' button.

Real political action imo involves a little more effort. I'm not doubting the the OP has put that in...it's just that far too many sign without due thought.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> When you think about it, you could have all sorts of daft petitions, like ' Antonio Banderas for Prime Minister' or similar. There are enough loonies and airheads around to sign that kind of thing.
> 
> My other objection is that it's all too easy to think you've committed a 'political act' by simply putting your name to a petition. Like many people, I am bombarded on a daily basis with requests to join this 'Cause' or sign this petition about topics from animal cruelty to fgm to free bus passes for disabled veterans. I know sod-all about most of these topics and have no interest in many of them so I hit the 'delete' button.
> 
> Real political action imo involves a little more effort. I'm not doubting the the OP has put that in...it's just that far too many sign without due thought.


I don't think you are talking about the same thing here. The kind of petition that they presented was an ILP (Iniciativa Legislative Popular) which means the proposal can be debated if they acheive 500.000 signatures (real signatures accompanied by the DNI details to make sure they are not duplicated) and which is in art. 87.3 of the Constitution. Obviously there are restrictions, you can't make a petition to change taxes! This isn't one of facebook's petitions which to my mind are pointless, you have no way of knowing who has proposed it or who is signing it and are mostly accompanied by disgusting images. The petition they presented had nealy one and a half million signatures. I think that the mass coverage and support of Ada Colao's intervention and news of the latest suicides, were equal factors in the change of intention of the voters. However, the article in think-spain is totally inaccurate from the moment it says the law has been changed! They have agreed to debate a proposal which proposes certain changes in the law, changing the law is still some way off.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> I don't think you are talking about the same thing here. The kind of petition that they presented was an ILP (Iniciativa Legislative Popular) which means the proposal can be debated if they acheive 500.000 signatures (real signatures accompanied by the DNI details to make sure they are not duplicated) and which is in art. 87.3 of the Constitution. Obviously there are restrictions, you can't make a petition to change taxes! This isn't one of facebook's petitions which to my mind are pointless, you have no way of knowing who has proposed it or who is signing it and are mostly accompanied by disgusting images. The petition they presented had nealy one and a half million signatures. I think that the mass coverage and support of Ada Colao's intervention and news of the latest suicides, were equal factors in the change of intention of the voters. However, the article in think-spain is totally inaccurate from the moment it says the law has been changed! They have agreed to debate a proposal which proposes certain changes in the law, changing the law is still some way off.


Thanks, that is the information I lacked.

So...am I right then that in thinking such a petition merely invokes the right to debate a change in the legislation, not an automatic right to a change?

If so then yes, it's a potentially valuable instrument...but even taking that into account, I am still dubious about the real value of petitions. They can be signed up to too easily and lead people into thinking that they have committed an act of political significance when they haven't.

UK tv current affairs 'shows' now regularly feature instant polls on various questions with the changing numbers constantly shown onscreen. I find this a loathsome practice, encouraging a knee-jerk, superficial response to what are often deep and complex topics.

When the 15 M 'movement' startd I was deeply sceptical of its effect in changing government policy and in that respect I was surely vindicated - it didn't stop the PP wins in national and regional elections. But I'm old enough to have participated in the sit-ins and 'teach-ins' which swept university campuses in the late 60s and although they were a great tool for political education, they fizzled out and certainly didn't stop the Vietnam War...

The 15M participants created a valuable platform for political education and discussion which hopefully lead people to engage in 'real' politics. As I see it, there is a woeful lack of public debate on the deep questions of our time, such as what is the meaning and form of democracy in the technological age, what real meaning, if any, lies behind the words equality and freedom and how can the rights of minorities be safeguarded against what J.S. Mill described as the 'tyranny of the majority'.

I also think that we should consider deeply what we see as 'human nature' and how it is formed since I believe that to be of paramount importance before accepting any political creed.

That was my fundamental mistake in my political life. I put the cart before the horse, so to speak and was too preoccupied with 'action' rather than thinking about basic issues of the nature of humanity.

P.S. Have just realised on rereading that my post could be star exhibit in Pseud's Corner....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

And watch out if you are approached in the street by somebody with a clipboard and a petition for you to sign which they hold up to your midriff for you to read and sign. While you attention is diverted, they are dipping your pockets or handbag.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> I don't think you are talking about the same thing here. The kind of petition that they presented was an ILP (Iniciativa Legislative Popular) which means the proposal can be debated if they acheive 500.000 signatures (real signatures accompanied by the DNI details to make sure they are not duplicated) and which is in art. 87.3 of the Constitution. Obviously there are restrictions, you can't make a petition to change taxes! This isn't one of facebook's petitions which to my mind are pointless, you have no way of knowing who has proposed it or who is signing it and are mostly accompanied by disgusting images. The petition they presented had nealy one and a half million signatures. I think that the mass coverage and support of Ada Colao's intervention and news of the latest suicides, were equal factors in the change of intention of the voters. However, the article in think-spain is totally inaccurate from the moment it says the law has been changed! They have agreed to debate a proposal which proposes certain changes in the law, changing the law is still some way off.


Yes, that's it, thanks for the info. I thought there was something about the number of signatures on a petition. 
The media are giving great importance to the support that the campaign has received at grass roots level, and the PP would have harvested more criticism than support if it had voted against this motion in light of *all *recent events including numerous demonstrations, petitions, email campaigns, social network groups and tragically, some suicides.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Lets just hope it helps the poor sods thats handed their keys back and had to leave spain as they have lost their incomes
I hope it is made law
Banks need to be made aware repossesions not the answe negotiation is


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