# How do you heat your water here?



## leedsutdgem (Jun 3, 2010)

Hi guys,
Im debating whether or not to change to an electric termo to heat my water. We have gas natural and im am sick and tired of the termo breaking down and the water is either too hot or just goes cold in the middle of a shower. We pay around 55€ every 2 months for gas (we only have gas for the hot water) and we are a family of 4. What does everyone else have? Is it expensive to run an electric water heater?


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

We have lectricity and its not cheap. TBH, I've only just moved here so havent had a bill yet, but previously we had an electric water heater and our bills were high and my OH wasnt keen to have one this time altho the tank is smaller! Personally I'd stick with gas

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

My daughter had electric and the bills were high and they changed to gaz which is much cheaper


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Used to be on gas - now on electric. Would go back to gas tomorrow if it was possible.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

We also changed from electricity because of the high price. We now have natural gas. I'm not sure what we pay. It's not cheap either, but electricity is very expensive. I'm not sure why you're having problems with the thermo (the thermostat??). It shouldn't break down continuously - nothing should. If by thermo you mean thermostat (sorry, probably being a bit thick here), then the problem would be electric, wouldn't it?


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

leedsutdgem said:


> Hi guys,
> Im debating whether or not to change to an electric termo to heat my water. We have gas natural and im am sick and tired of the termo breaking down and the water is either too hot or just goes cold in the middle of a shower. We pay around 55€ every 2 months for gas (we only have gas for the hot water) and we are a family of 4. What does everyone else have? Is it expensive to run an electric water heater?


We have a boiler which runs on a propane gas cylinder, which provides all our hot water and cooking on top of the stove. A cylinder costs about 11 euros and lasts about six weeks in summer, four in winter. There are only two of us though.


----------



## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

I built a Solar Panel, 2 metres x 1 metre, cost 200 euros for materials. I salvaged a circulating pump off an old boiler ( no-one you would know) and we already had an insulated hot water cylinder. We have a gas combi for back up. 100% satisfied.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Well I am bucking the trend again.

We had a gas heater and used gas bottles for that and the cooker, but we were only allowed one gas bottle and it had to be kept ventilated and outside. The kitchen had to be ventilated at the top and at the base. This meant chiselling through the metre thick outside walls.

Anyway a friend bought us a new Ariston 25 litre, electric water heater, easily fitted and works well. It is very economical our total electricity bill is less than €1.50 daily and we always have plenty of hot water.

That was eight years ago, when fitted new, no problems since. I would not go back to humping those gas bottles. Having said that I do miss the gas hob, far more practical than the electric one,

Hepa


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Well I am bucking the trend again.
> 
> I would not go back to humping those gas bottles.
> 
> Hepa


  
Glad to hear it!!!


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Glad to hear it!!!


Mind like a sewer rat


----------



## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

The 'thermo' is the insulated hot water cylinder with electric immersion heater. Problems with these are usually due to 'cal' - the mineral deposits from the tap water which build up on the heater element.
One thing to consider if changing from electric water heating where the hot water is stored in the 'thermo' and therefore immediately available when the hot tap is turned on to a gas water heater is the extra wastage of water that is involved. The most common types of gas boiler (caldera) here in Spain only start to heat the water once the tap is opened so cold water has to run down the drain while the boiler is heating its own heat exchanger before it can transfer heat to the water. The result is that many litres of water are wasted before it runs hot enough to be usable at the tap. Water charges are high now especially here in the city. I think that if you take this extra cost plus the capital cost of the gas installation it will never be worthwhile to change from gas to electric solely for water heating.


----------



## Diez66 (Jul 11, 2011)

*I am interested in building a solar panel and researching,*



country boy said:


> I built a Solar Panel, 2 metres x 1 metre, cost 200 euros for materials. I salvaged a circulating pump off an old boiler ( no-one you would know) and we already had an insulated hot water cylinder. We have a gas combi for back up. 100% satisfied.


Hi, I am interested if you have any information on what you did. I want to do as much research as possible before I spend money. Additionally, do you know if you can do your own plumbing on un-vented hot water in Spain?
Pete


----------



## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

country boy said:


> I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
> The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
> The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.


I'm very impressed!:clap2:


----------



## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

country boy said:


> I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
> The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
> The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.


Thanks for that! :clap2:
My husband is looking to build a similar system and you have just answered all his queries.


----------



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

country boy said:


> I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
> The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
> The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.







Very clever.. I am going to pass this link onto my son in law.
I wonder if you could do it to heat the pool?
Thanks

Maiden


----------



## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> Very clever.. I am going to pass this link onto my son in law.
> I wonder if you could do it to heat the pool?
> Thanks
> 
> Maiden


Yes you can, in fact , that is my next project. When I built our pool I put 100 metres of black alkathene pipe, zig-zagged, in the concrete base, 'a la under floor heating' and I intend to make another panel and pump to service that. Job no:367 on the Retirement list, couldn't possibly go back to work...there just isn't time :juggle:


----------



## Guest (Jan 16, 2012)

Very impressive little project and very well executed !

A friend is building a cortijo and is considering going for a ground source heating. Basically, you bury a wadge of plastic pipes/tubing underground and the warmth of the earth heats up water/antifreeze circulating in the pipes. These can be fed into radiators or for underfloor heating. An incredibly efficient way of heating which can be done quite cheaply. Some info can be found here - Ground Source Pumps


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

country boy said:


> I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
> The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
> The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.


Interesting project. I am curious how the output compares to a commercial solar hot water system. What is the temperature of the output? How often do you have to use the use a backup water heater? Have you had any maintenance issues?

Last year I installed a tube type commercial solar water heater with a 150 liter tank and 20 double wall tubes. It relies on convection to circulate water to the tank, so no pump is required. I put in a series of valves so that I can use the solar system as a stand alone hot water supply, or it can preheat water going to a gas water heater, or the gas water heater can be used alone. I have had it for nearly a year now. The only time I had to use the backup gas water heater was when I had some house guests and a hurricane passed by creating about a week of cloudy weather. Otherwise the output from the solar system has been more than adequate. I have not measured the temperature of the water, but it is too hot to shower or wash dishes. It has to be diluted with cold to avoid scalding. The cost of the commercial system was $7500 pesos (Mexico). The water system in Mexico is low pressure (provided by gravity from a tank on the roof), so the solar system was cheaper than it would be for a system in a country with pressurized water system. I spent about that much again on plumbing for the installation. So the total cost was around $15,000 pesos (roughly €750 Euros). 

I also have experience with solar hot water in California. That system was similar to the one you designed except that the tank was above the tubing so no pump was required. Convection was sufficient to circulate the heated water to the tank. There I had to use a backup hot water system for a couple of months each year in the winter. I think the difference is partly due to the warmer, sunnier climate in Guadalajara, Mex than in San Francisco, CA, USA and partly due to the higher efficiency of the tube type solar water heater.


----------



## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> Interesting project. I am curious how the output compares to a commercial solar hot water system. What is the temperature of the output? How often do you have to use the use a backup water heater? Have you had any maintenance issues?
> .


I have no figures for the heat output but suffice it to say that the pipes from the panel by the end of a summers day are far to hot to touch. Last summer we used only one bottle of gas from early May until the second week of September and very, very few  for a couple of months each side of that.

I have the system rigged in an un-orthodox way: In Winter, Hot water from the indirect cylinder passes through the Combi before entering the house and if it isn't up to the boilers limit stat the boiler flashes up and heats it up to spec. In summer I have a manually operated by-pass to cut the boiler out of the system altogether and thus I normally turn it off during June 'till September. Future plans will automate this valve with a thermostat. The only downside I observe using this configuration is that the boiler cycles ( flashes up and shuts down rapidly) when the incoming water is only tepid. It only cycles once when the incoming water is hot. 
The system has been operating for two summers and one winter so far without any hitches or maintenance requirements. 

I would point out that my costing in the original posting was some time ago, before the price of Copper tube and fittings went through the roof. Probably need to add another €75 to bring it up to date.


----------



## Diez66 (Jul 11, 2011)

*Thanks*



country boy said:


> I made a wooden frame with a Marine Ply back to accommodate a galvanised steel sheet which was 1x2 metres from our local steel stockholders. Wired to the sheet I made a zig zag of 15mm copper tube using back to back elbows at each return, keeping the join distance to a minimum. Cold water enters at the bottom and exits at the top. There is a bleed screw at the top to vent air on set up. Water is circulated via an ordinary central heating circulating pump through an Indirect HW cylinder. The cylinder is a mains pressure type so the domestic hot water that emanates from it is mains pressure also.
> The plate with the tube attached was painted matt black and mounted in the box atop a one inch layer of tightly packed free-press newspapers. (Readily available at your local Garage  ). I routed a groove in the wooden frame into which I slid a sheet of Polycarbonate sheet, the double layer variety.
> The whole rig is mounted on a couple of legs at the appropriate angle and in my case anchored down to a tyre filled with concrete so it can't blow over.


Just want to say thanks for the reply. Looks great. I will have to get my act together soon now and give it a go. I will need to get a new indirect cylinder and once that is fitted I will be ready to build a panel. 
When I have done this, I will post but don't hold your breath.
Thanks again, Pete


----------

