# European Property Owners Day



## lenox

The home of Helen and Len Prior was demolished on January 9th 2007 in Vera, Almería and they have been living in the adjoining garage ever since. 'Builders electric' (a generator) and a hosepipe for the amenities.
Their house was knocked down (cynically and - illegally according to the Constitutional Court) by the provincial delegate of the Junta de Andalucía in an area now tagged for 35,000 homes (!!) to be called the Llano Central and to be masterminded by the J of A. 
They probably think they'll sell 'em to the Brits...
Regardless... the Priors are a retired couple who came here to live quietly. The fact of their house demolition has passed pretty much unnoticed in Spain, but has been featured heavily on British television and will have caused a large number of potential homebuyers NOT to come to Spain (or Almería) to live. The Almería unemployment rate is currently at 30% and not liable to improve until a change in the province's reputation. The Priors (and the 10,000 other 'illegal homes' in Almería) need protection and compensation.
Down here, we've called for a 'European Property Owners Day' (rather obviously to be held on January 9th) with the appropriate celebrations. 
A band, home-made marmelade stalls, Morris dancers... and a bonfire with corrupt promoters, politicians and other worthies to be burned in effigy.


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## Veronica

lenox said:


> The home of Helen and Len Prior was demolished on January 9th 2007 in Vera, Almería and they have been living in the adjoining garage ever since. 'Builders electric' (a generator) and a hosepipe for the amenities.
> Their house was knocked down (cynically and - illegally according to the Constitutional Court) by the provincial delegate of the Junta de Andalucía in an area now tagged for 35,000 homes (!!) to be called the Llano Central and to be masterminded by the J of A.
> They probably think they'll sell 'em to the Brits...
> Regardless... the Priors are a retired couple who came here to live quietly. The fact of their house demolition has passed pretty much unnoticed in Spain, but has been featured heavily on British television and will have caused a large number of potential homebuyers NOT to come to Spain (or Almería) to live. The Almería unemployment rate is currently at 30% and not liable to improve until a change in the province's reputation. The Priors (and the 10,000 other 'illegal homes' in Almería) need protection and compensation.
> Down here, we've called for a 'European Property Owners Day' (rather obviously to be held on January 9th) with the appropriate celebrations.
> A band, home-made marmelade stalls, Morris dancers... and a bonfire with corrupt promoters, politicians and other worthies to be burned in effigy.


I've edited the title for you.


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## lenox

I saw Helen and Len Prior on Thursday, and they are holding up bravely to a rotten situation. Apparently the foreign media continue to interview them (particularly now, on the upcoming second anniversary of their home being demolished)... and the Spanish media, of course, continues not to touch the subject with a bargepole.
Helen told me that, over the past couple of years, several people from the UK had made it known to her that they had decided against buying a house or moving to Spain, after seeing what had happened. I can't help but imagine that many many thousands of Brits have made that very same decision.


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## Stravinsky

lenox said:


> I can't help but imagine that many many thousands of Brits have made that very same decision.


And moved here without incident! 

No one denies there are some terrible examples of peoples lives being destroyed of course, and it is well worth marking with such a day


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## mrypg9

I am still waiting for an answer to my question about ultimate responsibility for planning decisions.
I would have thought that someone who is so committed to rectifying the plight of the unfortunate homeowners would have a thorough grasp of this subject, even though it is undoubtedly complex.
Until I can get an answer from 'lenox' or someone else who is knowledgeable in this field I am sympathetic to the plight of individuals but as yet unconvinced as to where ultimate responsibility for the situation lies.
Burning effigies of politicians is of course bound to enlist their sympathy for the cause.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> . The fact of their house demolition has passed pretty much unnoticed in Spain, but has been featured heavily on British television and will have caused a large number of potential homebuyers NOT to come to Spain (or Almería) to live. The Almería unemployment rate is currently at 30% and not liable to improve until a change in the province's reputation. The Priors (and the 10,000 other 'illegal homes' in Almería) need protection and compensation.
> .


Are you really surprised that the Spanish media is on the whole uninterested in the plight of a few thousand unfortunate British immigrants?
The current dire state of the Spanish economy isn't due to the supposed reluctance of a few thousand more Btitish immigrants to buy 'cheap' property in Spain. The very fact that so many immigrants from Western Europe were eager to buy, coupled with the greed and short-sightedness of Spanish, British, Dutch etc etc developers and local politicians lead to a speculative boom which has now turned into a burst bubble. Corruption, graft, shoddy construction and other ills are all a consequence of the rush to buy.
Those days are surely over but the consequences are here to stay. The whole coastline from Rosas to Algeciras as well as inland regions have been blighted by ugly developments. Personally, I'm not surprised that the Regional Governments want the status quo ante.
I also wonder if being a 'prime retirement destination' is the way forward for an advanced modern economy. Spain may well be currently experiencing difficulties but it is still ranked twelfth in the world's economies. Being a sort of Eastbourne on heat doesn't seem to be a concept with much appeal to forward-thinking Spaniards. God did not put Spain on earth for us to retire to.
Buying a house is for most people the most important decision they will make, especially if their circumstances are such that they have no 'fall-back' capital in the form of other property or assets. Buying a house abroad is an even more important undertaking.
I wonder if you read the follow-up posts on the thread you posted on last week?
There is an excellent post by riablanca and I supplied the official definition of the term 'immigrant'.


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## lenox

As pointed out elsewhere, your understanding of 'immigrant' is hopelessly wrong. How many of the 1,000,000 Brits living in Spain have obtained a Spanish passport? How many of them moved here to work, learn Spanish, and join the community? Yes, there are some - living in Madrid, Granada, Burgos and Barcelona - but not on the Rosas to - let's say - Chipiona cusp, where, I would add, there is little industry or agriculture and the tourist or residential income is 'most welcome'.
How many Brits - do you suppose - live in Almeria City?
Are there more Brits in Mijas, Fuenge, Torremolinos, Benalmadena, Coín and Marbella or in Málaga City, Seville or Jaén? No, we're not 'immigrants', we are - at best - 'displaced Europeans' - and treated as 'second-class' ones at that. 
As far as the responsibility in the Prior's case - it is for a team of lawyers and judges (and politicians) to decide, well past the years that Helen and Len can expect to remain on this earth.


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## jojo

I feel deeply sorry for Helen and Jen. It wasnt their fault and to demolish their home was nothing short of cruel and pointless. 

Whatever title you give "Brits" over here, we are by defintion "immigrants" I'm certainly not a "Displaced European", I'm most definately an immigrant!!!! "Displaced" suggests an involuntary act on our part, which it isnt and I havent ever felt that I or anyone I know has been treated as a second class citizen. Interestingly enough, theres a chap near me who lives in a converted water deposit (horrible little man actually, but thats by the by), he's about to be evicted and his "house" turned back into a water deposit, why?? I dont know, cos the old house it used to service has long gone, but the local junta are insisting that he gets out, so he's bought a caravan to move into AND he's gotta pay to have the work done - he's not a happy bunny!!. So it happens to Spanish as well. The issue needs to be reclified and brought in line with european standards and the Spanish government need to take more responsibility


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> As pointed out elsewhere, your understanding of 'immigrant' is hopelessly wrong. How many of the 1,000,000 Brits living in Spain have obtained a Spanish passport? How many of them moved here to work, learn Spanish, and join the community? Yes, there are some - living in Madrid, Granada, Burgos and Barcelona - but not on the Rosas to - let's say - Chipiona cusp, where, I would add, there is little industry or agriculture and the tourist or residential income is 'most welcome'.
> How many Brits - do you suppose - live in Almeria City?
> Are there more Brits in Mijas, Fuenge, Torremolinos, Benalmadena, Coín and Marbella or in Málaga City, Seville or Jaén? No, we're not 'immigrants', we are - at best - 'displaced Europeans' - and treated as 'second-class' ones at that.
> As far as the responsibility in the Prior's case - it is for a team of lawyers and judges (and politicians) to decide, well past the years that Helen and Len can expect to remain on this earth.


Pointed out only by you.
I am sorry but it is you who seem unable to grasp the meaning of the word'immigrant'. I have provided you with the UN definition and if you consult a dictionary you will see it is the same.
If it makes you feel that you have a higher status by calling yourself an expat, go ahead, but the fact remains that you are an IMMIGRANT. Possession of a Spanish passport has nothing to do with it. If you acquire one, you become a naturalised Spaniard, not an immigrant.
As for being treated as 'second-class' Europeans -what nonsense. And as describing yourself as 'displaced' - well, you came here under your own steam, many people to get a standard of living they could never afford in the UK. 
You still haven't answered my question about planning structures. I presume that you don't know. Now get this straight - if any of these people have fulfilled all the neccessary procedures and not just thought they had, undertaken searches into zoning,in other words done as suggested in Tallulah's excellent post, used good lawyers and so on, then they have somehow been deceived and I would fight their corner, as I have done for people in similar situations regarding CPOs and demolition orders in the UK.
But if, as it seems many of them did, they jumped at the chance of a lovely home at a bargain price (without looking deeply into whether it were legal or not,(see riablanca's post) then I'm sorry, but they are the architects of their own misfortune.
That may sound harsh but consider this: if you were offered a beautiful home at a knock-down price in a lovely unspoilt corner of rural England on the say-so of the Mayor or any local official, people would say you deserved all you got were you to buy without further intensive investigation as your home would be demolished, just as in Spain.
As for expecting the Spanish Government aka the Spanish taxpayer to bail out people who may or may not have been victims of fraud -That, along with your burning of effigies, is really bound to get the masses on your side....


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I feel deeply sorry for Helen and Jen. It wasnt their fault and to demolish their home was nothing short of cruel and pointless.
> 
> Whatever title you give "Brits" over here, we are by defintion "immigrants" I'm certainly not a "Displaced European", I'm most definately an immigrant!!!! "Displaced" suggests an involuntary act on our part, which it isnt and I havent ever felt that I or anyone I know has been treated as a second class citizen. Interestingly enough, theres a chap near me who lives in a converted water deposit (horrible little man actually, but thats by the by), he's about to be evicted and his "house" turned back into a water deposit, why?? I dont know, cos the old house it used to service has long gone, but the local junta are insisting that he gets out, so he's bought a caravan to move into AND he's gotta pay to have the work done - he's not a happy bunny!!. So it happens to Spanish as well. The issue needs to be reclified and brought in line with european standards and the Spanish government need to take more responsibility
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Way to go, Jo!!!: 
Agree apart from the last bit about the Government as I'm still in the dark about the central question of who is the ultimate planning authority. I'm still not sure that the unfortunate buyers aren't to blame in at least some part of the purchase process by not ensuring that everything was hunky-dory.
This 'lenox' doesn't seem to know and if his posts are anything to go by, he isn't being much of a help to people who actually may have been victims of fraud.
What comes over strongly is a sense of entitlement which gets up my nose so Gawd knows how it must make local Spaniards feel....


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Way to go, Jo!!!:
> Agree apart from the last bit about the Government as I'm still in the dark about the central question of who is the ultimate planning authority. I'm still not sure that the unfortunate buyers aren't to blame in at least some part of the purchase process by not ensuring that everything was hunky-dory.
> This 'lenox' doesn't seem to know and if his posts are anything to go by, he isn't being much of a help to people who actually may have been victims of fraud.
> What comes over strongly is a sense of entitlement which gets up my nose so Gawd knows how it must make local Spaniards feel....


I honestly dont know or understand all the facts behind this or any other demolisions. In alot of cases its greedy builders, developers and then followed by crooked lawyers - how can Brits know what is and isnt right? But at the same time when you're buying in a forign country with totally different planning laws you should use more care, more research and more vigilance. I personally wouldnt buy in Spain because of all these things I've heard UNTIL I'd lived here for a while and got my head around it all!!! I remember an estate agent before we came here, telling us when we were looking to buy that a few of the properties he showed us were GOING to be made legal, so not to worry about the paperwork??? - ALARM BELLS RANG - even then to me!!?? So in that situation I'd have blamed the agent - any of them who have been working in Spain know damn well what is and isnt legal. 

I know we have the Mayor of Marbella in our local prison due to corruption over property development. So at that level you should be able to have a certain ammount of trust - BUT, even then, everyone knew what he was doing was wrong, but they assumed he was above the law - that he was the law. Technically he was, but it was still wrong and he was caught out!?? - Summat like that!!

As for the Priors, I do feel for them and that wont change, but I dont agree with all the marches, stamping of feet that goes with it. I think there are more amicable ways of making their feelings known. It seems that only inflames the situation and irritates the "natives" which surely isnt the object of the exercise is it?? It creates a "them and us" situation - hense the need to refer to "us" as displaced europeans. Theres certainly no marches or anything else for the little man being kicked out of his water deposit here - its just tough!

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Way to go, Jo!!!:
> Agree apart from the last bit about the Government as I'm still in the dark about the central question of who is the ultimate planning authority. I'm still not sure that the unfortunate buyers aren't to blame in at least some part of the purchase process by not ensuring that everything was hunky-dory.
> This 'lenox' doesn't seem to know and if his posts are anything to go by, he isn't being much of a help to people who actually may have been victims of fraud.
> What comes over strongly is a sense of entitlement which gets up my nose so Gawd knows how it must make local Spaniards feel....



Do you know anything of the Priors case?
You _are _aware that their house was legal with all documentation aren't you?

I'm guessing that there is a certain air of "I'm allright Jack". I wonder if the men with dozers come along and knocked down your legally built house that you would feel the same


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## lenox

You are all, as always, completely right.
'Lenox'


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## jojo

lenox said:


> You are all, as always, completely right.
> 'Lenox'


There will always be a mixture of answers on a forum. Thats why forums are what they are isnt it - lots of opinions. "Hindsight is a wonderful thing" thats the only right answer! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Do you know anything of the Priors case?
> You _are _aware that their house was legal with all documentation aren't you?
> 
> I'm guessing that there is a certain air of "I'm allright Jack". I wonder if the men with dozers come along and knocked down your legally built house that you would feel the same


Please read my posts carefully. You will see that I am not unsympathetic to the Priors.
First of all, I have made it clear by repeatedly asking for information about planning that I am not aware of the facts of this or any of the other cases. As for all the 'documentation' - until I am made aware of 1) what documentation the Priors have and 2) what documentation is actually needed to be able to build on agricultural land then I am in no position to make a judgment and neither is anyone else..
I have also made clear that I suspect that fraud may have played a role in at least some of the cases.
Now....I know very little about the planning structure in Spain. I don't know how extensive your knowledge of these matters is. My knowledge of planning structures is confined to experience as a member and Chair of a District Planning Committee in a rural area in the UK,where questions of this nature often arose, although on nothing like the same scale.
As for having an 'I'm alright Jack attitude', sorry but you couldn't be further frrom the truth.
For the very reason that such purchases in Spain are to say the least 'difficult' and can be rather complex, I do not and never will own property in Spain or any other country whose language I do not speak fluently and whose legal procedures are so different from those I am used to in the UK. So I have no house to be bulldozed.
I did buy abroad though, but in Canada, an Anglophone country with clear and transparent legal structures and planning laws and whose lawyers do not have a reputation for sharp practices. I bought, rented out, sold,made a profit and paid the taxes.
I do however have friends who have purchased property in Spain and my son and daughter-in-law own properties here, a few minutes from where I live. None of them has experienced any problems whatsoever, including one friend who bought a large rural estate in Almeria. 
So I can state categorically that I would never be in a position of having my home bulldozed. Why? Because like Jo, I would NEVER buy without having spent a few years here and having become thoroughly immersed in all things Spanish.
I am far too cautious, I'm afraid.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> You are all, as always, completely right.
> 'Lenox'


By which I take it to mean you have no answers to my questions or cannot refute my points.
If you cannot stand your ground with someone like me who is prepared to be convinced that individuals may have been badly treated but quite reasonably would like to see evidence before committing myself, you're not going to be able to put up much of a fight for these people, are you?.


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## lenox

I've posted on various forums over the last few years, but this one is the weirdest.
I get attacked by some person called *dtrfh^lkglhj. for using my name 'lenox' which is - as it happens - my name. Lenox Napier. Editor for 14 years of The Entertainer newspaper (now 'The euro Weekly News'), editor of some other regional papers both in English and in Spanish. I've lived here for 42 years, am not an immigrant, and also not a lawyer. 
The Priors house... oh, what's the point?


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## jojo

lenox said:


> I've posted on various forums over the last few years, but this one is the weirdest.
> I get attacked by some person called *dtrfh^lkglhj. for using my name 'lenox' which is - as it happens - my name. Lenox Napier. Editor for 14 years of The Entertainer newspaper (now 'The euro Weekly News'), editor of some other regional papers both in English and in Spanish. I've lived here for 42 years, am not an immigrant, and also not a lawyer.
> The Priors house... oh, what's the point?



I dont know why this one seems weird to you, but for some reason you do occasionally evoke a bit of stick - is it that name of yours ???LOL. 

As for whether you're an immigrant - well you can be whatever you want to be! I see myself as one, I dont see that as derogatory, its just what I am IMO, maybe when I've been here for 42 years I wont see myself as one either!

As for the Priors and all the nonsense that goes with it, I hold what I've said. We all have our views on the subject of house grabs, as a newspaperman you should know that views vary - maybe you could help the chap down the road from me who's about to be made homeless by the same rules as the Priors, he hasnt had any media assistance, either British or Spanish????

Jo xxx

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> I've posted on various forums over the last few years, but this one is the weirdest.
> I get attacked by some person called *dtrfh^lkglhj. for using my name 'lenox' which is - as it happens - my name. Lenox Napier. Editor for 14 years of The Entertainer newspaper (now 'The euro Weekly News'), editor of some other regional papers both in English and in Spanish. I've lived here for 42 years, am not an immigrant, and also not a lawyer.
> The Priors house... oh, what's the point?


Look, Lenox...I'm asking you to try to convince me and you're not doing a very good job. Believe me, if I was sure that the Priors or anyone else for that matter had been treated unfairly, I'd be fighting alongside you. I have spent most of my professional life fighting for the underdog and have extensive experience of taking up cases of unfair treatment of all kinds.
But experience has taught me to be very wary until I am personally convinced of all the facts of a case. I've been caught out and learnt the lesson. Too many instances of that and your credibility nosedives.
If I lived nearer I could get to find out more and as I said if I thought there was any fraud or dodgy dealings of any kind, I'd be standing side by side with you.
But I don't know 100% so until I do.....
Just out of interest, why do you object to being called what the Single European Act, the United Nations and the Oxford English Dictionary says you are? 
I'd really like to know, as a matter of interest.
And do you consider Poles in the UK with Polish passports or Bangladeshis with their own passports as 'Polish expats' or 'Bangladeshi expats'? After alol, most of them are there to stay. I have NEVER heard or read of them being described as anything other than 'immigrants'.
But if it pleases you, I'll think of you as an expat!
Immigrant Mary


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## Pesky Wesky

I have just seen part of the programme "Paradise Lost" which a lot of you saw when it was first broadcast. I really felt for those who were featured in the programme whose home was knocked down and others who were living with the threat of this happening. 
I totally agree that people who come over to Spain, see a bargain and sign on the dotted line (often thinking they're pulling a fast one over the locals - bit like trading beads with the natives that don't know their real value) without doing the research could end up having big problems. 
However surely it must be "wrong"  for local councils to see people building on land that is not licenced for building. Why isn't the whole process stopped beforehand? Like that hotel built on the beach in Almeria I think it is, that has finally been declared illegal and will be pulled down.
Jo's right, it's not only Brits who are affected, some Spaniards also have perfectly legal homes (see Stravinsky's post I think) except - oh  all of a sudden they're not. It's just that most building has gone on in the south and most of that has been built by foreigners.
I also agree with I think it was Jo, that sometimes you don't know what your supposed to do because it's not something that happens or something that you do in your country of origen. ie sign in at the ayuntamiento. OK, you should find out about it, but some people are just not very "worldly wise" for want of a better way of saying it.
I still think that the building shouldn't go up in the first place. The local council and usually the local people and police all know which is "rustic" ground and which isn't. It could all be easily stopped. You should certainly never give someone an hour to get out of their house and bulldoze down their life.
I wonder if one of the big problems is, like where I live, that for several years the mayor was also the main constructor in the area.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I also agree with I think it was Jo, that sometimes you don't know what your supposed to do because it's not something that happens or something that you do in your country of origen. ie sign in at the ayuntamiento. OK, you should find out about it, but some people are just not very "worldly wise" for want of a better way of saying it.
> I still think that the building shouldn't go up in the first place. The local council and usually the local people and police all know which is "rustic" ground and which isn't. It could all be easily stopped. You should certainly never give someone an hour to get out of their house and bulldoze down their life.
> I wonder if one of the big problems is, like where I live, that for several years the mayor was also the main constructor in the area.


The buildings shouldn't have gone up, that's clear. So they have to come down, as is the case in the UK.
It's also sadly true that some people are not worldly wise but as I keep on saying, all the more reason not to spend your money. Ignorance of the law is no defence.
There are things about the Priors' case I don't understand because I have heard only of their awful plight, not what lead up to it. For example: did they buy through a developer? Did they actually receive a 100% valid planning permission from the CORRECT authority?
Surely their lawyer must bear some responsibility for any omissions? Can they not take action for compensation against him/her?
I have read only about the demolition of their property but althoughy we are told they had 'all' the required documentation,no-one has said whether they had the correct documentation. 
One thing I feel is sure....burning effigies, asking Spanish taxpayers for compensation and -especially -morris dancing displays - will do little to persuade Spaniards that the issue of demolition is a top priority for them.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> The buildings shouldn't have gone up, that's clear. So they have to come down, as is the case in the UK.
> It's also sadly true that some people are not worldly wise but as I keep on saying, all the more reason not to spend your money. Ignorance of the law is no defence.
> 
> One thing I feel is sure....burning effigies, asking Spanish taxpayers for compensation and -especially -morris dancing displays - will do little to persuade Spaniards that the issue of demolition is a top priority for them.


Ignorance of the law is no defence I know. But having your house/ life pulled down is another and I'd :nod: grasp every straw I had.

Burning effigies should be a national pastime. :eyebrows:It's a good way of letting off steam with out harming anyone. ( I believe two mayors have been killed this year)And there's enough corruption and victims to keep the fires burning until San Juan.:flame:

And Morris dancing - let them have some fun I say


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> The buildings shouldn't have gone up, that's clear. So they have to come down, as is the case in the UK.
> It's also sadly true that some people are not worldly wise but as I keep on saying, all the more reason not to spend your money. Ignorance of the law is no defence.
> There are things about the Priors' case I don't understand because I have heard only of their awful plight, not what lead up to it. For example: did they buy through a developer? Did they actually receive a 100% valid planning permission from the CORRECT authority?
> Surely their lawyer must bear some responsibility for any omissions? Can they not take action for compensation against him/her?
> I have read only about the demolition of their property but althoughy we are told they had 'all' the required documentation,no-one has said whether they had the correct documentation.
> One thing I feel is sure....burning effigies, asking Spanish taxpayers for compensation and -especially -morris dancing displays - will do little to persuade Spaniards that the issue of demolition is a top priority for them.


I have a feeling that eh Priors and their lawyers did everything right and that it was the Mayor who was dishonest and he was found out. The Priors simply got caught in the crossfire and were almost used as a warning/deterent???? But they did have all the correct paperwork!? I could be wrong and maybe Lenox or Strav will correct me!?

But your last paragraph, I totally agree with. If anything it could even enrage them further - Its a silly and fruitless gesture, that doesnt carry any useful message or purpose. In fact I would go as far as to say, because its "typically British" activities, it alienates them and does nothing to help the Spanish who are suffering a similar fate IMO. But I do wish the Priors well

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I have a feeling that eh Priors and their lawyers did everything right and that it was the Mayor who was dishonest and he was found out. The Priors simply got caught in the crossfire and were almost used as a warning/deterent???? But they did have all the correct paperwork!? I could be wrong and maybe Lenox or Strav will correct me!?
> 
> But your last paragraph, I totally agree with. If anything it could even enrage them further - Its a silly and fruitless gesture, that doesnt carry any useful message or purpose IMO. But I do wish the Priors well
> 
> Jo xxx


If it is 100% the case that they have been defrauded then it is truly a scandal that they have had no redress. I really wish I knew all the facts. There must be something practical that could be done. The Human Rights Act -I forget which Article -guarantees the right to family life -hard to enjoy if your home has been demolished. Spain has signed up to the Act. It's not some banana republic so it must show some signs of conforming to accepted codes.
If injustice has been done, then there MUST be a means of rectifying it. 
And Pesky, yes, all those things such as burning effigies etc. are great fun -apart from morris dancing on which we'll have to agree to disagree- but they will not make one iota of difference to the Priors' case.
British lawyers can take up cases in European courts but presumably the Priors haven't thye money for this and haven't tried to see if any lawyer would take the case pro bono?


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> If it is 100% the case that they have been defrauded then it is truly a scandal that they have had no redress. I really wish I knew all the facts. There must be something practical that could be done. The Human Rights Act -I forget which Article -guarantees the right to family life -hard to enjoy if your home has been demolished. Spain has signed up to the Act. It's not some banana republic so it must show some signs of conforming to accepted codes.
> If injustice has been done, then there MUST be a means of rectifying it.
> And Pesky, yes, all those things such as burning effigies etc. are great fun -apart from morris dancing on which we'll have to agree to disagree- but they will not make one iota of difference to the Priors' case.
> British lawyers can take up cases in European courts but presumably the Priors haven't thye money for this and haven't tried to see if any lawyer would take the case pro bono?



I dont know all the facts by any means, altho I think they even got a bill from the demolishers requesting payment for knocking down their house. They have been left with the garage and the swimming pool, which were deemed legal???? Maybe "lenox" or Strav could fill us in or maybe show us some links ????

It does happen to Spanish as well and its this that I find irritating - its always made out the be the "poor old Brits" and thats its a British fight which is isolating the British community IMO

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> If it is 100% the case that they have been defrauded then it is truly a scandal that they have had no redress. I really wish I knew all the facts. There must be something practical that could be done. The Human Rights Act -I forget which Article -guarantees the right to family life -hard to enjoy if your home has been demolished. Spain has signed up to the Act. It's not some banana republic so it must show some signs of conforming to accepted codes.
> If injustice has been done, then there MUST be a means of rectifying it.
> And Pesky, yes, all those things such as burning effigies etc. are great fun -apart from morris dancing on which we'll have to agree to disagree- but they will not make one iota of difference to the Priors' case.
> British lawyers can take up cases in European courts but presumably the Priors haven't thye money for this and haven't tried to see if any lawyer would take the case pro bono?


 
Look and ye shall find...
Detalle de sentencia

And of course nor dancing nor bonfires nor marmalade which was mentioned earlier will make any difference to their case. I suspect they know that, but as I said, let them have some fun :juggle:. You should have seen what went on in the *No a la guerra* marches in Madrid - they were fun!


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Look and ye shall find...
> Detalle de sentencia
> 
> And of course nor dancing nor bonfires nor marmalade which was mentioned earlier will make any difference to their case. I suspect they know that, but as I said, let them have some fun :juggle:. You should have seen what went on in the *No a la guerra* marches in Madrid - they were fun!


Oh I agree, marches should be fun. My marching days are probably over, although I've been on a few in my time. I remember being gently lifted by a very patient policeman and removed as I attempted to block the passage of Pierre Trudeau's car at some NATO meeting or other. A group of 'wimmyn' nearby were weaving a 'magic web' around the police. Silly but fun.
As a former member of various equality organisations I used to march with NASUWT on London Pride Day. Now that is an absolutely hilarious fun march with a political point. All humanity is there -gay, straight, old, young. Hundreds of thiusands of people and no trouble whatsoever.
Did you go on the no a la guerra march? I didn't go to the huge February anti-war march in Lindon as although I didn't want war I felt that the Government i.e. Tony Blair must know something they couldn't reveal to the public which made war essential.
Oh silly me.....


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Look and ye shall find...
> Detalle de sentencia
> 
> !


Thankyou so much for that. At last some facts! I shall print it off and read it with the aid of my large Eng.Spanish Dictionary.


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## Stravinsky

Hey, I dont profess to be an expert in Spanish planning 
I know the documents I need to have a legal house and I have them. I'm registered with the Valencia land registery, and I have my deeds and Certificate of Habitation.

Everything I have seen in reports, on TV etc etc shows that they had the same, and yes, I also saw reports that they received a bill for the demolition, and that their solicior had been telling them right to the end that the demolition would never happen.

I would agree that there are people who bought illegal houses because it was a cheap deal. They knew what they were getting in to. They have to live with it.

However there are a number that were duped, or the ruling Junta have overturned local decisions (such as the Priors). I have some degree of sympathy for them, as behind the figures there are lives and dreams being destroyed .... and not to have some sympathy or feel the need to do something to help would feel alien to me.

@mrypg9: Yes there should be some way of righting it .... but it seems no one is interested, and thats why they resorted to demonstrations.


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## jojo

Actually, a similar thing happened to some neighbours up the road from me. They were granted permission to build on a plot of land, they started and after a couple of weeks, their builders accidently damaged a stream with their lorries and earth moving. The local junta heard about this and decided to revoke their planning permission. That was three years ago. These nieghbours are living in a shack on the land next to a half built house and still fighting to get their planing permission back. Then we've got the spanish chap who's got to turn his house back to a water deposit !!?? There has to be some changes to the way they do things over here and soon! But it has to come from the top and it has to be regulated and adminstered correctly. I dont believe a few angry Brits can do it!?

Jo xxx


----------



## rioblanca

lenox said:


> How many of the 1,000,000 Brits living in Spain have obtained a Spanish passport? QUOTE]
> 
> As far as I am aware Immigrants cannot apply for a Spanish Passport. I know friends whose daughter in law had a baby a few months ago and enquired about the child getting a Spanish Passport at they were all registered and had residencias but got told NO! Not unless the father or mother is Spanish can a child be given a Spanish passport.
> 
> I will happily accept being told that I am wrong.
> 
> Can immigrants apply for citizenship in Spain?


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> Hey, I dont profess to be an expert in Spanish planning
> I know the documents I need to have a legal house and I have them. I'm registered with the Valencia land registery, and I have my deeds and Certificate of Habitation.
> 
> Everything I have seen in reports, on TV etc etc shows that they had the same, and yes, I also saw reports that they received a bill for the demolition, and that their solicior had been telling them right to the end that the demolition would never happen.
> 
> I would agree that there are people who bought illegal houses because it was a cheap deal. They knew what they were getting in to. They have to live with it.
> 
> However there are a number that were duped, or the ruling Junta have overturned local decisions (such as the Priors). I have some degree of sympathy for them, as behind the figures there are lives and dreams being destroyed .... and not to have some sympathy or feel the need to do something to help would feel alien to me.
> 
> @mrypg9: Yes there should be some way of righting it .... but it seems no one is interested, and thats why they resorted to demonstrations.


Please tell me if I'm right on this; I have read the document Pesky kindly sent and it seems to me as if an earlier judgment against the Priors has been overturned by a subsequent judgment in their favour. My Spanish isn't really up to reading legal stuff so I'm not sure.
If my reading is correct, I agree with you 100% - what has happened is simply scandalous. 
I cannot believe that nothing can be done. Surely there must be some up and coming young UK lawyer who would take the case on at European level, under the HRA? 
My earlier hesitation was simply because I didn't have actual facts before me, only people's reactions to what had happened to the Priors and long experience of casework has made me very cautious and deeply suspicious.


----------



## mrypg9

rioblanca said:


> lenox said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many of the 1,000,000 Brits living in Spain have obtained a Spanish passport? QUOTE]
> 
> As far as I am aware Immigrants cannot apply for a Spanish Passport. I know friends whose daughter in law had a baby a few months ago and enquired about the child getting a Spanish Passport at they were all registered and had residencias but got told NO! Not unless the father or mother is Spanish can a child be given a Spanish passport.
> 
> I will happily accept being told that I am wrong.
> 
> Can immigrants apply for citizenship in Spain?
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know everyone has the right to apply but for EU citizens there seems little point as the Single European Act provides for all the benefits -and obligations -of citizenship.
> The process is extremely long, tedious and complex -I suspect it's meant to be.
> I know of a case currently pending where the previous partner of an Austrian man is applying for Spanish citizenship for their child.
Click to expand...


----------



## lenox

It takes a long time to get a Spanish nationality - ten years of living here... unless you are a sportsman, in which case the authorities throw the rule-book out. You may remember the olympic skier who spoke Austrian-German called Klaus something who was our great hope until, alas, he was caught cheating. 
He probably lost his passport as quickly as he'd got it.
International footballers don't even have to pay tax on their earnings here (vide Beckam).
Anyway - for us mere mortals - for being born in Spain, my son was and he can get a passport if he wishes. There is perhaps not much point as he has a British nationality. My daughter, here since she was one year old, was recently tossed out of Spain (new imigration! rules) as she has an American passport. She's now thirty and trying to start again in the USA.
As far as the 'Single European Act' (sorry, will have to look it up), I can say that those of us who live in another European country than our own can't vote in that country's national or regional elections, or referenda. I've lived in Europe all my life and got to vote (in local and European elections only) in 1995... for the first time in my life!! I was 45. I certainly couldn't vote with the rest of Spain on the European referendum.
Second-class European?? Moi?
..
The Priors home was adjudicated legally by the ayuntamiento.
Deemed 'ilegal' by the Junta de Andalucía
Knocked down after a substitute judge signed the demolition.
The Priors - who had the Junta ruling in front of the Constitutional Court in Madrid - later won their claim.
The Junta is appealing against the Constitutional Court.
The Priors continue to live in a garage.
The subject has not been publicised particularly in the Spanish press.
It's wrong!


----------



## jojo

lenox said:


> ..
> The Priors home was adjudicated legally by the ayuntamiento.
> Deemed 'ilegal' by the Junta de Andalucía
> Knocked down after a substitute judge signed the demolition.
> The Priors - who had the Junta ruling in front of the Constitutional Court in Madrid - later won their claim.
> The Junta is appealing against the Constitutional Court.
> The Priors continue to live in a garage.
> The subject has not been publicised particularly in the Spanish press.
> It's wrong!


This is also happening to Spanish nationals/natives whatever you wanna call them. It often comes across as tho you take this whole house demolition thing personally, as tho its only aimed at "the second class Brits" Is it because you feel that you're treated as a second class citizen here???? I'm sure you're not and if you were then I doubt that you'd have stayed here for so long??

I totally agree that its wrong, the spanish media dont publish it for reasons other than "because its Brits" tho and I dont know why?? Can the situation not be brought up in Brussels?? and if it has, why cant Brussels step in and do what its paid to do? help the EU to become one??!! 

jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> This is also happening to Spanish nationals/natives whatever you wanna call them. It often comes across as tho you take this whole house demolition thing personally, as tho its only aimed at "the second class Brits" Is it because you feel that you're treated as a second class citizen here???? I'm sure you're not and if you were then I doubt that you'd have stayed here for so long??
> 
> I totally agree that its wrong, the spanish media dont publish it for reasons other than "because its Brits" tho and I dont know why?? Can the situation not be brought up in Brussels?? and if it has, why cant Brussels step in and do what its paid to do? help the EU to become one??!!
> 
> jo xxx



If the British in Spain are 'second-class Europeans' then so are citizens of every EU member state who are resident in the EU outside of their country of nationality.
So it's not going to cut much ice as a valid argument that we British immigrants here are discriminated against.
The Spanish media aren't interested because as I posted earlier it's not of great interest, in the global scale of things. Imagine if it were a Spaniard in the UK. 
As for 'Brussels' by which I assume you mean either the European Parliament or the European Commission, then no, they have no authority over the planning regulations of member states. Neither should they, when you think about it.
But.....the much derided by the Daily Mail and other gutter rags Human Rights Act does have clauses which I would have thought would apply to the Priors' case.
I think it's Article 19 which enshrines the 'right to a family life'. The UK and Spanish Governments have signed up to this Act.
But I'm still bopthered by just one point: if the Andalucian Junta had the ultimate right to stop any building on agriculturally zoned land - why did the Priors' lawyer not look into this?
As has been said: why was the building allowed to continue if there was even a 1% chance it was illegal?


----------



## mrypg9

?
..
The Priors home was adjudicated legally by the ayuntamiento.
Deemed 'ilegal' by the Junta de Andalucía
Knocked down after a substitute judge signed the demolition.
The Priors - who had the Junta ruling in front of the Constitutional Court in Madrid - later won their claim.
The Junta is appealing against the Constitutional Court.
The Priors continue to live in a garage.
The subject has not been publicised particularly in the Spanish press.
It's wrong![/QUOTE said:


> I want to establish a few facts;
> firstly: am I correct in thinking that the Priors won their appeal not because the demolition was illegal per se but because they had not been given the opportunity to present their case according to the legal requirements?
> Secondly: if as seems the case the area in question had been zoned by the Junta in accordance with its Regional Plan for agricultural use with no residential construction allowed,then surely the Priors' lawyer should have been aware of this and informed them accordingly?
> It is becoming clear to me that the Priors have a genuine grievance but I'm not sure against whom -their lawyer for professional negligence in not finding out that the land was for agreicultural use only, it would seem to me.
> I read some background in the so-called 'newspaper 'Daily Mail' which was guaranteed to fuel any Spanish obduracy. This spiteful little rag wrote of 'resentment against foreigners' 'vengeful local authorities' and ' socialist local councils using this issue to get reelected'.
> As Jo and others have pointed out, this is NOT the way to go and could do more harm than good.
> Spaniards too have been the victims of this apparent arbitrariness.


----------



## mrypg9

Found this in The Independent.

The Priors, both aged 63, retired to Spain in 2002 after selling their home in Berkshire and putting £350,000 into building a beautiful villa in the small town of Vera, near Almeria on the south coast. Their property had received planning consent from the town hall. *However, due **to a legal oversight*, *the necessary authorisation stamp from the Andalucian **government was never obtained*.* There are specific authorisations you need to make a property legal. These include the First Habitation licence, which guarantees provision of utilities; the licence granting the local authority's permission to build; and a licence from the regional government. *It was this final authorisation that the Priors apparently didn't have.*


That is what I thought - the Junta de Andalucia is the final arbitrar of planning applications in these cases.
So....why wasn't the authorisation stamp obtained? Surely the lawyer acting for the Priors is at fault.
In the UK, the planning process works like this: Parish or Town Council Planning Committees consider applications and give a yea or nay. The District Council then considers the application, gives a decision which in most cases is final. Some applications have to be referred to the County Council for their refusal or consent.
If someone goes ahead with building after the Town or Parish Council has agreed the application, then they are foolish indeed. Anything built would be most certainly demolished if the District Committee refused it. The same applies to applications which may be agreed by Town and District but refused by County.
It seems the same system, more or less, is in place here, as I thought.
So....whoever is responsible for the 'legal oversight' is to blame, it seems.


----------



## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Found this in The Independent.
> 
> The Priors, both aged 63, retired to Spain in 2002 after selling their home in Berkshire and putting £350,000 into building a beautiful villa in the small town of Vera, near Almeria on the south coast. Their property had received planning consent from the town hall. *However, due **to a legal oversight*, *the necessary authorisation stamp from the Andalucian **government was never obtained*.* There are specific authorisations you need to make a property legal. These include the First Habitation licence, which guarantees provision of utilities; the licence granting the local authority's permission to build; and a licence from the regional government. *It was this final authorisation that the Priors apparently didn't have.*
> 
> 
> That is what I thought - the Junta de Andalucia is the final arbitrar of planning applications in these cases.
> So....why wasn't the authorisation stamp obtained? Surely the lawyer acting for the Priors is at fault.
> In the UK, the planning process works like this: Parish or Town Council Planning Committees consider applications and give a yea or nay. The District Council then considers the application, gives a decision which in most cases is final. Some applications have to be referred to the County Council for their refusal or consent.
> If someone goes ahead with building after the Town or Parish Council has agreed the application, then they are foolish indeed. Anything built would be most certainly demolished if the District Committee refused it. The same applies to applications which may be agreed by Town and District but refused by County.
> It seems the same system, more or less, is in place here, as I thought.
> So....whoever is responsible for the 'legal oversight' is to blame, it seems.


If indeed the Independent is correct? I dont know, just differs with everything else I have read on the subject.


----------



## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> If indeed the Independent is correct? I dont know, just differs with everything else I have read on the subject.


That's the problem. Who knows what actually went wrong? I've read up as much as I can find on the whole topic, including Spanish planning law and it seems that The Independent's statement about the stamp from the Junta is correct. But what do I know, I've only been here a year and had no dealings with property purchase.
So the Priors' lawyer seems to have let them down. 
Is there a Spanish equivalent of the Bar Association, do you know?


----------



## Hombre

mrypg9 said:


> That's the problem. Who knows what actually went wrong? I've read up as much as I can find on the whole topic, including Spanish planning law and it seems that The Independent's statement about the stamp from the Junta is correct. But what do I know, I've only been here a year and had no dealings with property purchase.
> So the Priors' lawyer seems to have let them down.
> Is there a Spanish equivalent of the Bar Association, do you know?


Lots of wringing of hands on this subject. Bottom line is, none of us know the TRUE facts, and therefore can do nothing about it.


----------



## jojo

Hombre said:


> Lots of wringing of hands on this subject. Bottom line is, none of us know the TRUE facts, and therefore can do nothing about it.



Uncharacteristic wiseness Hombre,  very well said! :clap2:

Jo xxx


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## lenox

What went wrong - was that the Priors bought a house in good faith and came here to retire after, one can only imagine, a busy life in England doing this and that.
Then their house was knocked down.
No doubt _something_ went wrong, after all, there are many _'casas ilegales' _that _haven't_ been knocked down although the Priors insist that their house was '_legal_'. 
Houses on the beach, enormous apartment blocks, empty houses in illegal urbanisations, 22 storey hotels in natural parks... none of these have been knocked down so far...
Everyone here in Almería points to a political problem rather than a juridical one. Vera is a major Partido Andalucista town (as is Zurgena, where similar problems are keeping the press busy). The mayor, Felix Lopez, was asked to lead the PSOE to another glorious victory in the 2007 elections, but decided to remain where he was with the PA.


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## Hombre

Uncharacteristic wiseness Hombre,?????
Hmmmm...grrrrr...but I can spell..


----------



## jojo

lenox said:


> What went wrong - was that the Priors bought a house in good faith and came here to retire after, one can only imagine, a busy life in England doing this and that.
> Then their house was knocked down.
> No doubt _something_ went wrong, after all, there are many _'casas ilegales' _that _haven't_ been knocked down although the Priors insist that their house was '_legal_'.
> Houses on the beach, enormous apartment blocks, empty houses in illegal urbanisations, 22 storey hotels in natural parks... none of these have been knocked down so far...
> Everyone here in Almería points to a political problem rather than a juridical one. Vera is a major Partido Andalucista town (as is Zurgena, where similar problems are keeping the press busy). The mayor, Felix Lopez, was asked to lead the PSOE to another glorious victory in the 2007 elections, but decided to remain where he was with the PA.


whats PSOE??

Jo xx


----------



## mrypg9

Hombre said:


> Lots of wringing of hands on this subject. Bottom line is, none of us know the TRUE facts, and therefore can do nothing about it.


I'm sure you're right.....but I can't believe that NOTHING can be done. 
This is Spain - if I had learnt of something like this in the CR, I would agree.
But this is a civilised country......isn't it?


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> whats PSOE??
> 
> Jo xx


Spanish Socialist Workers Party, i.e. the Governing Party.


Lenox, clarity is essential in these cases. If you want to make a serious attempt to put things right, you have to pinpoint exactly what went wrong. I can't see why that should be a problem - the explanation from The Independent report seems to be nearest the truth,as far as I can see from reading up on planning law.
Do you have any contacts with UK lawyers? I have professional contacts with two leading chambers, Mitre Chambers and Matrix Chambers- Cherie Blair's lot-, but don't know if they would do pro bono work in such cases.


----------



## Hombre

mrypg9 said:


> I'm sure you're right.....but I can't believe that NOTHING can be done.
> This is Spain - if I had learnt of something like this in the CR, I would agree.
> But this is a civilised country......isn't it?


Well ..I don't envisage me tossing and turning tonight.....


----------



## jojo

so what is being said is that there are lots of illegal properties that havent been knocked down, its debatable whether the Priors house was illegal, but it was knocked down anyway because of some guy trying to score points with a political party??? 

The Priors are having to try to prove that their property was legal and that it was wrong to knock it down and therefore should receive compensation??

To try to hightlight their plight, gain sympathy and help from the locals and the government the local British and the local British newspaper are organising marches, and typically British events??

Is anything actually being done now via legal channels?

Jo xxx


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## jojo

Hombre said:


> Well ..I don't envisage me tossing and turning tonight.....



Thats a relief for mrs H I'm sure!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Hombre

Has anyone noticed the price of carrots ??


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## Hombre

jojo said:


> Thats a relief for mrs H I'm sure!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


touche...


----------



## mrypg9

Hombre said:


> Has anyone noticed the price of carrots ??


By which I'm assuming the subject is getting a little laboured and pointless.
Ah well, I'm sure you're right.
It's just that when I start digging into something, I want to know in all the ins and outs of a duck's a***, as our crude workmen used to say....


----------



## lenox

Yes, things are being done by legal channels. However, in Spain, justice is alarmingly slow. The Priors will spend a lot of nights in their shed before this is resolved.
I was interested in getting their story into the Spanish media, which has proved difficult so far (although I've been on Onda Cero and the COPE talking about this, and others have also been on the radio. The only newspaper of any size to cover this story was, on one occasion, La Razon). The larger 'illegal homes' story had some coverage recently in El País which started with _'Muchos de nosotros habremos muerto antes de que la situación de nuestras casas se solucione", sostiene Mike Phillips, dueño de uno de los 5.000 inmuebles fuera de ordenación que se contabilizan en el valle del Almanzora, al que pertenece el municipio de Arboleas_. 'Many of us will have died before the situation regarding our homes is resolved', says Mike Phillips, owner of one of the 5,000 'irregular' homes in Arboleas.


----------



## jojo

lenox said:


> Yes, things are being done by legal channels. However, in Spain, justice is alarmingly slow. The Priors will spend a lot of nights in their shed before this is resolved.
> I was interested in getting their story into the Spanish media, which has proved difficult so far (although I've been on Onda Cero and the COPE talking about this, and others have also been on the radio. The only newspaper of any size to cover this story was, on one occasion, La Razon). The larger 'illegal homes' story had some coverage recently in El País which started with _'Muchos de nosotros habremos muerto antes de que la situación de nuestras casas se solucione", sostiene Mike Phillips, dueño de uno de los 5.000 inmuebles fuera de ordenación que se contabilizan en el valle del Almanzora, al que pertenece el municipio de Arboleas_. 'Many of us will have died before the situation regarding our homes is resolved', says Mike Phillips, owner of one of the 5,000 'irregular' homes in Arboleas.



Call me thick but what good would it do to be in the Spanish papers? I suspect that the spanish government wont read it, and I'm not sure that the readers would be that interested would they???

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> Call me thick but what good would it do to be in the Spanish papers? I suspect that the spanish government wont read it, and I'm not sure that the readers would be that interested would they???
> 
> Jo xxx


Usually the more people who know, the better.
I'm surprised the Cope didn't want to know - they usually like any dirt they can get on the government and if they haven't got any they make it up!

PS Jojo Partido Socialista Obrero de España = PSOE = the socialist party


----------



## mrypg9

They may be interested in the Priors' plight as 'infotainment', just as the Daily Mail reported the situation in the UK. Not very helpful.
They are not so interested in what actions -or lack of led- up to it.
They used it as a stick to beat a socialist Government, as they do with bad weather, paedophilia, the price of carrots etc..
Once you bring party politics into a situation like this, the Priors are toast.
From all the background I've read, it seems the Independent got it right. An oversight caused by negligence on the part of the lawyers.

Carrots are very cheap here, 0.75 for a huge bunch, Hombre.
And it's raining at last but very gently.


----------



## lenox

From another forum and now being passed around:

_Hi Guys,
not sure whether we can do anything with this, I have the victims permission (a member of the AUAN) to reproduce it:_


I just wanted to get this off my chest before Christmas so that it isn't spoiled.
The answer is pretty obvious as to why I am fed up with Spain: 
Fed up with paying a mortgage (which we shouldn't have been given) on our illegal property.
Fed up with our developer living off our money, having knowingly defrauded us and with no hope of getting it back.
Fed up with not being able to get back on the property ladder here due to above.
Fed up with being stuck in a legal loophole...escritura yes, LFO...no!
Fed up with being blamed by Spanish politicians for their endemic social, political and economic corruption which they seem unable and unwilling to solve.
Fed up with the possibility that Spain is going to be a bottomless pit for my money for many years to come...unless by some minor miracle I win the lottery and stick my fingers up to Spain and all things Spanish.
Fed up with being told by people that we shouldn't expect Spain to do things in the same way as the UK and when taking this into account by doing things the "Spanish way" (that you are told to by people who supposedly know the right/usual way to do things) you find that you have unwittingly done things wrong, because you have been advised by fraudsters who have given this advice for their own gain and not in your best interests.
Fed up with having a house I can't sell, rent or live in.
Fed up that I have this situation hanging over me and my family like the sword of Damocles.
Fed up with feeling powerless against the reality that the local Spanish politicians will try to appease the local Spanish people (businessmen) first and not consider justice, morality or common sense in the whole property problem.

...
Dan T

The forum is an active one from the Almanzora area (Eastern Almería).


----------



## jojo

lenox said:


> From another forum and now being passed around:
> 
> _Hi Guys,
> not sure whether we can do anything with this, I have the victims permission (a member of the AUAN) to reproduce it:_
> 
> 
> I just wanted to get this off my chest before Christmas so that it isn't spoiled.
> The answer is pretty obvious as to why I am fed up with Spain:
> Fed up with paying a mortgage (which we shouldn't have been given) on our illegal property.
> Fed up with our developer living off our money, having knowingly defrauded us and with no hope of getting it back.
> Fed up with not being able to get back on the property ladder here due to above.
> Fed up with being stuck in a legal loophole...escritura yes, LFO...no!
> Fed up with being blamed by Spanish politicians for their endemic social, political and economic corruption which they seem unable and unwilling to solve.
> Fed up with the possibility that Spain is going to be a bottomless pit for my money for many years to come...unless by some minor miracle I win the lottery and stick my fingers up to Spain and all things Spanish.
> Fed up with being told by people that we shouldn't expect Spain to do things in the same way as the UK and when taking this into account by doing things the "Spanish way" (that you are told to by people who supposedly know the right/usual way to do things) you find that you have unwittingly done things wrong, because you have been advised by fraudsters who have given this advice for their own gain and not in your best interests.
> Fed up with having a house I can't sell, rent or live in.
> Fed up that I have this situation hanging over me and my family like the sword of Damocles.
> Fed up with feeling powerless against the reality that the local Spanish politicians will try to appease the local Spanish people (businessmen) first and not consider justice, morality or common sense in the whole property problem.
> 
> ...
> Dan T
> 
> The forum is an active one from the Almanzora area (Eastern Almería).


 I sympathise deeply, no it probably wouldnt happen in the UK and it is cruel and something needs to be done. This is happening to Spanish and other nationalities too - what is there take on it? What are they doing to resolve their terrible dilemmas??

If you feel "making a noise" is a way forward and you want the Spanish and even the international press to know whats going on, then bring some of the other nationalities to the fore - A few Brits who are complaining isnt gonna tug at the heart strings of many ordinary spanish people (hense the lack of interest from their media maybe?) - but maybe if they knew it was happening to their kinsmen, they may well take up the fight!? 

I'm not saying this is the case at all cos I dont know, but I would imagine that if I were spanish and this was going on, my first (albeit innaccurate) thoughts would be "tough, the Brits came over here, built flash houses wherever they liked, treated us like second rate citizens, lorded it around flashing their money, made house prices so high that our children now cannot afford to buy. Serves em right"

If this is the case, then bring in some of their own who are also suffering??

However, all that said, the Spanish, historically have been up to their necks in corruption and wrong doings since the days of Franco - maybe corruption etc, doesnt have the same need for justice to them, they maybe just accept the injustice and get on with their own lives!?

I'm just rambling Lenox, so please dont take offense at anything I've said above, I'm trying to get into the mindset of why this happens. But I'm adamant that nothing can be done on ground level to rectify any of this, it needs to come from the top and beyond - without the corruption!


Jo xxx


----------



## Hombre

jojo said:


> I sympathise deeply, no it probably wouldnt happen in the UK and it is cruel and something needs to be done. This is happening to Spanish and other nationalities too - what is there take on it? What are they doing to resolve their terrible dilemmas??
> 
> If you feel "making a noise" is a way forward and you want the Spanish and even the international press to know whats going on, then bring some of the other nationalities to the fore - A few Brits who are complaining isnt gonna tug at the heart strings of many ordinary spanish people (hense the lack of interest from their media maybe?) - but maybe if they knew it was happening to their kinsmen, they may well take up the fight!?
> 
> I'm not saying this is the case at all cos I dont know, but I would imagine that if I were spanish and this was going on, my first (albeit innaccurate) thoughts would be "tough, the Brits came over here, built flash houses wherever they liked, treated us like second rate citizens, lorded it around flashing their money, made house prices so high that our children now cannot afford to buy. Serves em right"
> 
> If this is the case, then bring in some of their own who are also suffering??
> 
> However, all that said, the Spanish, historically have been up to their necks in corruption and wrong doings since the days of Franco - maybe corruption etc, doesnt have the same need for justice to them, they maybe just accept the injustice and get on with their own lives!?
> 
> I'm just rambling Lenox, so please dont take offense at anything I've said above, I'm trying to get into the mindset of why this happens. But I'm adamant that nothing can be done on ground level to rectify any of this, it needs to come from the top and beyond - without the corruption!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Hear hear..!!


----------



## jojo

Hombre said:


> Hear hear..!!



...... Hombre, you're frightening me now LOL!! you dont normally agree with me ???

Jo xxx


----------



## Hombre

jojo said:


> ...... Hombre, you're frightening me now LOL!! you dont normally agree with me ???
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm feeling particularly mellow today Jo, Mrs H tells me she thinks she is pregnant.....


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## jojo

Hombre said:


> I'm feeling particularly mellow today Jo, Mrs H tells me she thinks she is pregnant.....


OMG!!!! I'm tempted to ask how, but I'm not that insensitive and I'm not sure I want the answer LOL. Well, let us know if she is!! WOW!!!

Jo xxx


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## Hombre

jojo said:


> OMG!!!! I'm tempted to ask how, but I'm not that insensitive and I'm not sure I want the answer LOL. Well, let us know if she is!! WOW!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry...she meant stagnant...


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## Tallulah

lenox said:


> What went wrong - was that the Priors bought a house in good faith and came here to retire after, one can only imagine, a busy life in England doing this and that.
> Then their house was knocked down.
> No doubt _something_ went wrong, after all, there are many _'casas ilegales' _that _haven't_ been knocked down although the Priors insist that their house was '_legal_'.
> Houses on the beach, enormous apartment blocks, empty houses in illegal urbanisations, 22 storey hotels in natural parks... none of these have been knocked down so far...
> Everyone here in Almería points to a political problem rather than a juridical one. Vera is a major Partido Andalucista town (as is Zurgena, where similar problems are keeping the press busy). The mayor, Felix Lopez, was asked to lead the PSOE to another glorious victory in the 2007 elections, but decided to remain where he was with the PA.


As I understand from what I've read, they didn't buy the house, they built the house. They were the "promotores" of the property, as is everyone else who builds their own house.

The inmobiliaria (Moya) was contracted to build the property. The inmobiliaria, and this makes a huge difference, did not build a house which they then sold on to the Priors. I would be amazed if the Priors realised their responsibilities under said conditions. Receiving the licence duly stamped by regional government was their responsibility. Ensuring that a health and safety rep was on site appointed to be on site during the build and duly registered in Trabajo, was their responsibility... as were many other things under the legal responsibilties of the "promotor".

Having a fox to watch the chickens is of paramount importance in such projects. Was their architect/aparejador (QS) completely independent and on the job? Note I did not say solicitor as they are rarely on site and on the job. If my memory serves me correctly from the excellent link to the sentencia from Pesky Wesky (thanks PW) the problem here is that the Junta revoked the licence and the ayuntamiento did not get the information back to the Priors. The case clearly shows lack of any evidence from the ayuntamiento that the notice of revoking of the licence was served and the sentence from the court clearly was that the Priors can reclaim their status prior to this mess from the ayuntamiento, or as it says, recovery of patrimonio (losses). 

On the one hand, it is a very sad state of affairs that they are left to sue the ayuntamiento with an already pre-judged win situation from the court - this is of course very cold comfort as that could take forever, if ever, they obtain a successful conclusion. On the other hand, taking on the job of "promotores" for a build, even if they didn't realise it and leaving all responsibility to the inmobiliaria who was going to build their house (the fox whose interest is to build and get paid) is not very wise to say the least. A solicitor is all well and good, but at the end of the day they are very black and white. They didn't get told anything either - the Priors did not have a residence registered in Spain at which to be advised on such matters and therefore following the lack of communication trail, all that is left is for them to sue the ayuntamiento and little else. 

This is of course keeping in mind that all else followed the revoking of the licence not being communicated to them - had it been, they would simply have been frustrated with a piece of land they couldn't build on and probably worth a fraction of what they paid for it as "edificable" but a hell of a lot less than where they are now. They, their project architect, the solicitor (if appointed to do so) should have verified the status of the land with the current "plan de urbanismo". As I understand it, although I read from your posts to the contrary, this land was rustica and not buildable - any preliminary investigations utilising the current "plan de urbanismo" would have shown this.

Please do not misunderstand - I feel a good deal of sympathy with their situation - and I wish there was a one-stop conveyancing service in Spain, as there is in the UK. However, all the information is there for those who ask for it. This is not like somebody who has bought a house ready made and turns out to be illegal (under very similar circumstances I might add). This is a brand new build from scratch which, to be honest given the checks we had to go through previous to even getting the sticks and string set in the ground for the ayuntamiento surveyor to measure limits, I'm amazed nobody noticed what the status of the land was along the way - simply saying that the ayuntamiento giving them permission to build and therefore deeming it "legal" is absolutely no defence - no matter where you're from. The local town hall as excellently put by Mary with the UK example she gave regarding planning permissions, etc at various stages, will always have a higher stamp to seek prior to final go ahead : example in Galicia - if a church is nearby, go ahead from Santiago required. If you're on a main road, diputacion delimits required. If you're anywhere near a motorway, fomento clearance required. If near a railway line, fomento and RENFE clearance required. ETC ETC ETC....Bottom line : if you don't know where you're at, chances are you're going to hit some major headaches along the way. These must, as "promotor" be cleared prior to the digger arriving on site. BTW - the BUCK STOPS with the promotor - it is a clear and legal obligation. And as PW and Mary rightly put, ignorance of the law is no defence. You cannot blame a country for that.


----------



## mrypg9

Tallulah...you are a star
Clearly and concisely explained.
I have sympathy for anyone in these circumstances but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to turn every stone when committing such large sums of money.
I feel that the sense of entitlement underlying some of this from some quarters is going to cut very little ice with Spanish people who, as Jo pointed out, are also subject to these regulations.
Some comments I've read -not on this excellent and sensible forum, I hasten to add -seem to regard Spain almost as a British colony.
Spain is not God's waiting room on heat. We have a 'right' to come here under EU rules but rights, such as they are, entail responsibilities. In this case the responsibility was to follow Spanish planning structures which are not so very different from those in the UK.
People are always happy to accept large financial gain, for example appreciation in value of shares, value of house, but are quick to whinge when values fall.
Like very many others here and elsewhere, I have lost heavily on investment income due to low interest rates.
I was very happy when yields of 10% or more were common. Now I have to accept the downside.
I know the situations aren't quite the same but I feel there is an underlying common thread.
I stand to be corrected, however.


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## mrypg9

A solicitor is all well and good, but at the end of the day they are very black and white. They didn't get told anything either - the Priors did not have a residence registered in Spain at which to be advised on such matters and therefore following the lack of communication trail, all that is left is for them to sue the ayuntamiento and little else.



Thanks -that neatly derails the misguided train of thought I was following.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Tallulah...you are a star
> Clearly and concisely explained.
> I have sympathy for anyone in these circumstances but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to turn every stone when committing such large sums of money.
> I feel that the sense of entitlement underlying some of this from some quarters is going to cut very little ice with Spanish people who, as Jo pointed out, are also subject to these regulations.
> Some comments I've read -not on this excellent and sensible forum, I hasten to add -seem to regard Spain almost as a British colony.
> Spain is not God's waiting room on heat. We have a 'right' to come here under EU rules but rights, such as they are, entail responsibilities. In this case the responsibility was to follow Spanish planning structures which are not so very different from those in the UK.
> People are always happy to accept large financial gain, for example appreciation in value of shares, value of house, but are quick to whinge when values fall.
> Like very many others here and elsewhere, I have lost heavily on investment income due to low interest rates.
> I was very happy when yields of 10% or more were common. Now I have to accept the downside.
> I know the situations aren't quite the same but I feel there is an underlying common thread.
> I stand to be corrected, however.



I agree with you Mary, its not the fact that their house has been demolished, its this "its only happened cos we're Brits, so we must fight the natives" attitude I'm not comfy with. We're in Spain and we must live by Spanish rules and as Tallulah pointed out, ignorance is no excuse!! So rather than demonstrations, Marches and getting on "our high horses" about it, we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact. Cos I dont want to see these people suffering and I truly do feel sorry for them and all those in a similar situation. 

Jo xxxx


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, I think that's probably the end of this thread although I would like to read some final opinion from Lennox -  I know he's read Tallulah's post... Or the Priors themselves, but I guess they're too busy trying to figure out what to do next. As we have all said, I do feel terribly for them.

Thanks to Tallulah for making a real effort and reading through everything. That woman knows her property laws inside out. There's a second career there for you. :clap2:

And I feel I must come clean. The "wonderful" link that I found was sooo easy to find,  I just googled Helen and John Prior + the name of the town but I didn't read it! I haven't got a hope in hell of understanding that kind of *legalese *in English, let alone Spanish.   I just left it there for everyone else to get into!!


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## lenox

The last word from Lenox?
No... the last word from Jo:
'_...we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'_. 
That'll teach 'em!


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## Pesky Wesky

lenox said:


> The last word from Lenox?
> No... the last word from Jo:
> '_...we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'_.
> That'll teach 'em!


 
The only way I can understand this comment is if it's meant sarcastically. Is that what you mean? Sorry to be so :doh: slow, but I like things to be spelled out for me, especially when they are written.


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## Tallulah

Yep same here....let's see if he proves us wrong, PW! Terrible shame when it degenerates into insults or cheap shots when one doesn't get the answers one wants - but that's forums for you. I just hope he appreciates that a lot of us like to look at the facts before forming opinions and jumping on the bandwagon.


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## lenox

I really do find much of the thrust on this forum hard to understand. A kind of 'pack' mentality from, in some cases, people who really don't have the information to hand (_'Who is the PSOE?_' for goodness sake - sorry Jo), but like to contribute anyway.
And why not?
In short - we, the expats, foreigners, immigrants (if you insist), guiris (spare me), Brits, 'Europeans' or what-have-you can either integrate or stand off at a length.
Integration by the way means 'joining in'. 
...

_'If democracy were to be given any meaning, if it were to go beyond the limits of capitalism and nationalism, this would not come, if history were any guide, from the top. It would come through citizens' movements, educating, organizing, agitating, striking, boycotting, demonstrating, and threatening those in power with disruption of the stability they needed'_. Howard Zinn

See: Corruption in Spain (a new and interesting site).


----------



## Tallulah

lenox said:


> I really do find much of the thrust on this forum hard to understand. A kind of 'pack' mentality from, in some cases, people who really don't have the information to hand (_'Who is the PSOE?_' for goodness sake - sorry Jo), but like to contribute anyway.
> And why not?
> In short - we, the expats, foreigners, immigrants (if you insist), guiris (spare me), Brits, 'Europeans' or what-have-you can either integrate or stand off at a length.
> Integration by the way means 'joining in'.
> ...
> 
> _'If democracy were to be given any meaning, if it were to go beyond the limits of capitalism and nationalism, this would not come, if history were any guide, from the top. It would come through citizens' movements, educating, organizing, agitating, striking, boycotting, demonstrating, and threatening those in power with disruption of the stability they needed'_. Howard Zinn
> 
> See: Corruption in Spain (a new and interesting site).


And again... What a shame to put it like that, when there were contributors on this forum who were prepared to discuss the case with you, instead of taking a one-sided approach, which frankly, is what you're appearing to do. I don't think you're going to threaten anyone in power with morris dancing and marmalade stalls, Lenox.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

lenox said:


> I really do find much of the thrust on this forum hard to understand. A kind of 'pack' mentality from, in some cases, people who really don't have the information to hand (_'Who is the PSOE?_' for goodness sake - sorry Jo), but like to contribute anyway.
> And why not?
> In short - we, the expats, foreigners, immigrants (if you insist), guiris (spare me), Brits, 'Europeans' or what-have-you can either integrate or stand off at a length.
> Integration by the way means 'joining in'.
> ...
> 
> _'If democracy were to be given any meaning, if it were to go beyond the limits of capitalism and nationalism, this would not come, if history were any guide, from the top. It would come through citizens' movements, educating, organizing, agitating, striking, boycotting, demonstrating, and threatening those in power with disruption of the stability they needed'_. Howard Zinn
> 
> See: Corruption in Spain (a new and interesting site).


 
I'll have a look at the site. It's not a secret that unfortunately Spain is buckling under the weight of its corruption. However, I'm not saying the UK is any better!!

*In short - we, the expats, foreigners, immigrants (if you insist), *I do because we are!!
*guiris (spare me), Brits, 'Europeans' or what-have-you can either integrate or stand off at a length.*
*Integration by the way means 'joining in'.* 
What ever are you talking about??? Tallulah and I are both married to Spaniards and my daughter is Spanish. I don't think I can intergrate much more than that... Please think before you write, before you post. Thank you


----------



## mrypg9

lenox said:


> The last word from Lenox?
> No... the last word from Jo:
> '_...we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'_.
> That'll teach 'em!


If that is the attitude you habitually adopt when the facts don't fit your view of things then you will do the Priors' cause more harm than good.
For whatever reason they failed to observe Spanish planning laws. They will be treated as Spaniards are in such cases. 
Uncomfortable as it may be to anyone who thinks the British Empire still exists and Britannia rules the Med, that is no longer the case. Jo is 100% correct: sympathy is the only short-range weapon the Priors have in their armoury.
As for 'teaching' them or anyone else for that matter, in my short time here I have found that we Brits can learn much from the Spanish.
We can't just come here and build a 'dream home' in a lovely rural area without ensuring we are allowed to.
Just as in the UK.


----------



## mrypg9

lenox said:


> I really do find much of the thrust on this forum hard to understand. A kind of 'pack' mentality from, in some cases, people who really don't have the information to hand (_'Who is the PSOE?_' for goodness sake - sorry Jo), but like to contribute anyway.
> And why not?
> In short - we, the expats, foreigners, immigrants (if you insist), guiris (spare me), Brits, 'Europeans' or what-have-you can either integrate or stand off at a length.
> Integration by the way means 'joining in'.
> ...
> 
> _'If democracy were to be given any meaning, if it were to go beyond the limits of capitalism and nationalism, this would not come, if history were any guide, from the top. It would come through citizens' movements, educating, organizing, agitating, striking, boycotting, demonstrating, and threatening those in power with disruption of the stability they needed'_. Howard Zinn
> 
> See: Corruption in Spain (a new and interesting site).



But it is YOU who has not provided facts. Read Tallulah's post again CAREFULLY and tell us what is not correct in what she has written.
I came to this topic totally ignorant of the facts and prepared to be convinced. I read as much as I could find and applied reason and common-sense. I then thought the Priors' lawyer must be at fault. I see now this was not the case. You have failed to refute what has been written and have resorted to insult and silly comment. 
As for quoting that well-known( ) political scientist Howard Zinn: I find that mildly amusing. I doubt if his political perspective has much resonance with the majority of Daily Mail-reading British immigrants here. 
May I suggest you read John Gray -the political philosopher who wrote 'Straw Dogs' etc. not he of the same name who wrote 'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus'.
His Weltanschaung is much more applicable in these circumstances, I feel.


----------



## Hombre

lenox said:


> The last word from Lenox?
> No... the last word from Jo:
> '_...we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'_.
> That'll teach 'em!


Well..that's one way of expressing one's thanks....


----------



## jojo

lenox said:


> The last word from Lenox?
> No... the last word from Jo:
> '_...we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'_.
> That'll teach 'em!


Being humble and a little humility goes much further than angry words and attitudes. I have to assume and hope your comment "that'll teach 'em" was a silly joke

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

Anyway Lenox. I think we need to call it a truce and agree to disagree. I dont want fighting on the forum, as you can see it acheives nothing and I'm sure that you are a genuinly nice guy who's only trying to help the Priors. 

Maybe you could post other things too so we can see what you're really like and maybe even offer some useful tips about living in Spain, you've been here a long time and must have alot of experiences and some advise too??

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> Anyway Lenox. I think we need to call it a truce and agree to disagree. I dont want fighting on the forum, as you can see it acheives nothing and I'm sure that you are a genuinly nice guy who's only trying to help the Priors.
> 
> Maybe you could post other things too so we can see what you're really like and maybe even offer some useful tips about living in Spain, you've been here a long time and must have alot of experiences and some advise too??
> 
> Jo xxx


 
That is so generous of you Jo.  Good for you!


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Maybe you could post other things too so we can see what you're really like
> Jo xxx


Yes, read his posts. Some of them on other boards are eye-openers, like the one I found and pasted above. Although it had to be deleted, it contained a comment about including South Africans (but only white ones) and non-Spaniard Europeans!


----------



## jojo

A poster on here was looking thru this online "magazine" The Entertainer Online: News And came across this quote:

"As the second anniversary of the demolition of Len and Helen Prior's house approaches (January 9th), I was discouraged to read the following from Expat Forum (one of the weirdest and dumbest of the forums around, I have to say):
'...So rather than demonstrations, Marches and getting on "our high horses" about it, we should be taking a more subservient, grovelling and apologetic tact'.
Yep, that'll show 'em!"

IMO, it suggests to me that this person is simply using the Priors to start and to win a war, rather than showing any concern or desire to get them compensation and some peace that they desperately need. I'm not sure what he means when he says "that'll show 'em"!!! A little humility can go alot further


Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

Naming no names of course...

This "poster" (for want of a better word) I believe has no grasp of the facts of the case as set out by the judicial sentencing...or maybe this "poster" does - but in order to further their own cause is choosing instead to create an "us and them" separatist situation. However, with all the notoriety this "poster" has, I suppose any publicity is publicity at the end of the day...even bad publicity. You'll have to get copywrite on here, Jo, to stop this "poster" using contributions on what was, at the end of the day, a simple discussion and using it for their own, twisted means.


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Naming no names of course...
> 
> This "poster" (for want of a better word) I believe has no grasp of the facts of the case as set out by the judicial sentencing...or maybe this "poster" does - but in order to further their own cause is choosing instead to create an "us and them" separatist situation. However, with all the notoriety this "poster" has, I suppose any publicity is publicity at the end of the day...even bad publicity. You'll have to get copywrite on here, Jo, to stop this "poster" using contributions on what was, at the end of the day, a simple discussion and using it for their own, twisted means.



I'm totally incensed by this! I wont even pretend to know the rights and wrongs of the Priors case, but from what I can see this "poster" is just using their misery to encourage a battle with the authorities - Authorities, who have, as we all know enough issues with corruption and political agendas, to really not need a British expat with a chip on his shoulder, trying to start more! Its no wonder they are not interested! That is not going to help the Priors!



Jo xx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> I'm totally incensed by this! I wont even pretend to know the rights and wrongs of the Priors case, but from what I can see this "poster" is just using their misery to encourage a battle with the authorities - Authorities, who have, as we all know enough issues with corruption and political agendas, to really not need a British expat with a chip on his shoulder, trying to start more! Its no wonder they are not interested! That is not going to help the Priors!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xx


I don't blame you Jo! He is not/was never prepared to discuss the points of the sentence - at the end of the day they were listed clearly and it was pointed out at the end that the Priors have leave to sue the Ayuntamiento. Fault was found on what was an administrative cock-up from start to finish, really. He chose to ignore that for his own agenda, I can only assume - in order to play on people's ignorance of the language/legal system and to inflame a situation whereby it's a case of Brits vs. Spanish, when in fact there are many, many Spanish property owners with exactly the same situation as the provincial governments tighten up on building practices. You may remember his previous agenda on here with the European parliamentary candidate. Clearly this man has one and only one agenda - and it is only of interest to himself.

Tallulah.x


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## mrypg9

Agree with both of you. The person in question seems to be a not very clever egotist with racist tendencies who is usng the sad case of the Priors as an opportunity for self-promotion.
I would love to invite him to debate the issue publicly. We would make mincemeat of him.


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with both of you. The person in question seems to be a not very clever egotist with racist tendencies who is usng the sad case of the Priors as an opportunity for self-promotion.
> I would love to invite him to debate the issue publicly. We would make mincemeat of him.


he won't though

he posts these comments all over the internet, and if questioned, disappears


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with both of you. The person in question seems to be a not very clever egotist with racist tendencies who is usng the sad case of the Priors as an opportunity for self-promotion.
> I would love to invite him to debate the issue publicly. We would make mincemeat of him.



I would like the Priors to stop being used by someone with a hidden agenda and somehow for someone to help them and others in their situation (of all natioanalities) - I know alot of them were ill advised, foolish or simply greedy, but some cases are so sad that it would be nice to see them receive GENUINE help. I would also like to see the rules, regulations and laws on properties in Spain modernised, clarified and simplified, so that they cannot be misunderstood and corrupted! This would need intervention at a higher, possibly EU level 

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I would like the Priors to stop being used by someone with a hidden agenda and somehow for someone to help them and others in their situation (of all natioanalities) - I know alot of them were ill advised, foolish or simply greedy, but some cases are so sad that it would be nice to see them receive GENUINE help. I would also like to see the rules, regulations and laws on properties in Spain modernised, clarified and simplified, so that they cannot be misunderstood and corrupted! This would need intervention at a higher, possibly EU level
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, it's time someone took 'this poster' on. It's clear that he either has no understanding of the true facts of the Priors' case or is deliberately obscuring them for his own interest.
A dangerous fool who is causing unnecessary fears on the part of potential buyers.
I have contacts in the UK media and am wondering if it is worthwhile putting the 'real' case and highlighting the fact that there may be an underlying 'agenda' here. 
The quotes about South Africans (white) and Non-Spaniard Europeans deserve a wider airing.
As for the Spanish themselves taking action, Jo: I believe they are making a start and the Priors and others are unfortunate victims of this.


----------



## mrypg9

Interesting report in The Olive Press (Dec 21st -Season of Bad Will'. Spanish families' homes being demolished) and the usual cries of outrage from the usual quarters.
But read the posts following the article and a different story emerges. A completely different story.
According to the article the residents were owners but it seems they were actually tenants and the developer, who is the owner and landlord was told to halt the building process but ignored a court order and completed the project.
As with the case of the unfortunate Priors, who it seems were the innocent perpetrators of their own fate -it seems they weren't resident in Spain while building was ongoing and even had no address in Spain so the refusal of permission to build by the Junta could not be communicated to them- these tenants, all of whom were Spanish, by the way, have understandably had a lot of sympathy. The manner in which their eviction was carried out was horrendous.
But facts are facts and if planning laws have been flouted then the consequences will be the same in most countries in the civilised world.
Many of the people who expect exemption from Spanish law are the same people who expect immigrants to the UK to abide by UK law.
The best way Spain's reputation can be restored as a safe place to do business is to show that the law cannot be broken with impunity. This will mean that many illegal constructions will be demolished and corrupt developers and officials fined and jailed. This will send a message to anyone thinking of ignoring the law in future and will eventually restore confidence in the housing market.
There will be hapless victims, of all nationalities. And before anyone says that it's easy for me to write this in my safe, rented house, I can only say that whilst I'm sorry for those people, my decision to rent rather than buy was based amongst other reasons on the current uncertainty surrounding the property market as a whole. That may sound smug but it's not meant to be.
The rush to buy a comparatively cheap retirement home in the sun is at the end the root cause of this mess. I agree 100% with Jo that help for those those entangled in it will not be achieved by aggressive actions of any kind.


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting report in The Olive Press (Dec 21st -Season of Bad Will'. Spanish families' homes being demolished) and the usual cries of outrage from the usual quarters.
> But read the posts following the article and a different story emerges. A completely different story.
> According to the article the residents were owners but it seems they were actually tenants and the developer, who is the owner and landlord was told to halt the building process but ignored a court order and completed the project.
> As with the case of the unfortunate Priors, who it seems were the innocent perpetrators of their own fate -it seems they weren't resident in Spain while building was ongoing and even had no address in Spain so the refusal of permission to build by the Junta could not be communicated to them- these tenants, all of whom were Spanish, by the way, have understandably had a lot of sympathy. The manner in which their eviction was carried out was horrendous.
> But facts are facts and if planning laws have been flouted then the consequences will be the same in most countries in the civilised world.
> Many of the people who expect exemption from Spanish law are the same people who expect immigrants to the UK to abide by UK law.
> The best way Spain's reputation can be restored as a safe place to do business is to show that the law cannot be broken with impunity. This will mean that many illegal constructions will be demolished and corrupt developers and officials fined and jailed. This will send a message to anyone thinking of ignoring the law in future and will eventually restore confidence in the housing market.
> There will be hapless victims, of all nationalities. And before anyone says that it's easy for me to write this in my safe, rented house, I can only say that whilst I'm sorry for those people, my decision to rent rather than buy was based amongst other reasons on the current uncertainty surrounding the property market as a whole. That may sound smug but it's not meant to be.
> The rush to buy a comparatively cheap retirement home in the sun is at the end the root cause of this mess. I agree 100% with Jo that help for those those entangled in it will not be achieved by aggressive actions of any kind.


By doing as you say and demolishing all the illegal homes, the message that will actually be sent is "dont buy a property in Spain". The building industry will decline further and an important source of income to the Spanish economy will be lost for many many years to come. It would take an inhuman effort after this to restore any confidence.

Forgive me for saying, but my impression of reading your comments all along is that you have been, as you put it, smug about it. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing of course. Its easy to be knowledgeable after the event. Not all of the people who will have their lives destroyed by the action you suggest will have been aware of the status of their property. Most will have been mislead in one way or another by someone. Most will never recover from the misery it will bring.

Especially at a time of year like this we should have some sympathy at least .... I dont really care if the problem was caused by the developer, the architect, the abogado or whatever. The bottom line is human misery and although there are many people much worse off in the world, its still a very great shame that due to the greed of professionals this had to happen.


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> By doing as you say and demolishing all the illegal homes, the message that will actually be sent is "dont buy a property in Spain". The building industry will decline further and an important source of income to the Spanish economy will be lost for many many years to come. It would take an inhuman effort after this to restore any confidence.
> 
> Forgive me for saying, but my impression of reading your comments all along is that you have been, as you put it, smug about it. The benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing of course. Its easy to be knowledgeable after the event. Not all of the people who will have their lives destroyed by the action you suggest will have been aware of the status of their property. Most will have been mislead in one way or another by someone. Most will never recover from the misery it will bring.
> 
> Especially at a time of year like this we should have some sympathy at least .... I dont really care if the problem was caused by the developer, the architect, the abogado or whatever. The bottom line is human misery and although there are many people much worse off in the world, its still a very great shame that due to the greed of professionals this had to happen.



Well, feel free to think I'm smug. I'm not offended in the least. Facts are facts, though.. In these cases at least the law has been broken. The property boom in Spain is over. A few more Brits buying won't put Spain's economy right. The state of the economy at present is partly due to all those eager buyers. Another construction boom will not make Spain more prosperous. And Spain, as I said before, was not put on earth as a retirement home. The damage, if any, to Spain's reputation as a safe place to buy property has been caused by lurid and inaccurate reports in the UK media. As you pointed out, tens of thousands of Brits and others have bought without problems. Follow the rules, use common sense and all is well.
Many people-but not all, admittedly- have only themselves to blame for their plight. Anyone who bought property in Spain without being 'aware of the status of their purchase' is, to say the least, extremely incautious. Caveat emptor is a good maxim. The greed of professionals, as you put it, has probably as much to do with all this as the rash actions on the part of many buyers. Hindsight IMO is for politicians and historians, not people investing their life savings.
I have said many times that I have sympathy for these people and not just because it's Christmas. . I have served voluntarily as a Director of a Housing Association - do you really think I relish the sight of people out on the streets? 
But mere sympathy won't help, neither will Morris dancing and marmelade.. 
As for the moans, groans and whinges I've read about Spain and the Spanish people, some with nasty racist overtones, well, no-one dragged these people here. It's not a British colony.
Finally, consider this: a Spaniard goes on holiday to a village the Yorkshire Dales. He loves it and buys a plot of land to build a house. He applies for Planning Permission to the local Town Hal and the Town or Parish Council Planning Committee, wanting to bring life into their area, grants it. The Spaniard hires a builder to build his house and goes home,leaving no contact address locally. 
The application then gets passed on to the District Council Planning Committee, which has the final say. They refuse as it's in a protected rural area. The Spaniard cannot be notified of this as he has left no address. The local builder wants his money and carries on building - after all, why shouldn't he? He needs the money.
The District Council finds out about the ILLEGAL build -for that's what it is -and eventually gets a Demolition Order. House is demolished. This is what happens in the UK.
Now you and I would have the utmost sympathy for this man. But if the house were allowed to stand, then why not another? Or another?
I watch 'UK Border Force' on tv and I have sympathy for the many would-be immigrants to the UK. After all, all they want is a chance of a better life. But let this one in? Then why not ten -twenty -a thousand?
I do not consider myself either smug or heartless - hard, perhaps, but ultimately realistic.
If I lived nearer any of these homeless people, British, Spanish, whatever, I would offer practical help, just as we helped a homeless young German we found living rough on the campo in January this year. We did his washing, brought him food, gave him money, found him temporary shelter, even lent him our car to help find work even though we privately thought his decision to leave his family and come to Spain in search of work rather foolish.
People who have been cheated or defrauded deserve legal recompense. Those who are victims of their own ignorance or gullibility sadly, IMO, do not fall into the same category.
My views will not be those of many but that does not make me a villain. Merely a realist.


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## Stravinsky

I wasnt calling you a villain, the smug comment was your word 

The point I was making about sympathy was that this is an expats forum. If i were one of the expats in question and read your comments I would be feeling pretty sad.

In any case I think you are missing my point.

You or I have no idea what he real facts are behind these cases. We dont know who was to blame. I dont believe fully what I read in the Olive Press, as I wouldnt necessarily of the UK press. The only people, as you pointed out earlier, are the people involved. And so for you to actively seek and pick out the snippets from the press and then judge everyone based on those is a little hard I feel. 

However, you are of course entitled to your opinion, I just hope I am online when one of the "victims" reads this so I can deflect the certain tirade directed at you


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## lenox

Agree with Stravinsky.
But events move on:
(This from my webpage, kindly highlighted somewhere above)

According to Manuel Bellido, the director of the IPE (Instituto de Práctica Empresarial), since 2006, the descent in the number of homes sold to 'Europeans' in Almería and Malaga has been 90% - that is - in 2006 6,329 homes were sold to extranjeros in Andalucía, in 2009, only 367 homes have been sold. 
And get this!
Today's 'El Mundo' continues this revelation with the following:
_'The severe problems which have surfaced in places like Almería - particularly in the Levante and Almanzora areas - to do with the foreigners, mainly British, buying illegal homes in the last few years have caused an understandable climate of distrust in their 'home countries' and the collapse of house prices for Andalucian homes'_.
It seems that a new organisation, called 'Spanish Homes Network', supported by the Junta de Andalucía and with full legal protection for buyers, will solve all of this...

I just hope that all these new buyers, these happy and confident home-owners, will spare a thought for the many thousands of fellow-Brits who live in the same area who must still use 'builders electric' and hosepipes and who will continue for many years to live under the threat of demolition by the self-same government that now finally notices the money available out there in the Frozen North.

It is clear that we need an _agency_ to protect, advise, inform and defend the foreign buyers here - but an _estate agency_? 

See also El Almería with its headline: _'La Junta venderá el stock de viviendas por Europa a través de una plataforma. Innovación y Vivienda impulsan la 'Spanish Homes Network' para ofertar 60.000 inmuebles del litoral mediterráneo (9.000 de Almería) en Reino Unido, Francia y Alemania'_. The Junta de Andalucía will market the overflow of homes with a new platform. The department of Innovation and Housing will promote 'Spanish Homes Network' to offer 60,000 homes on the Mediterranean coast (including 9,000 in Almería) in the UK, Germany and France.

Unbelievable, hey?


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## mrypg9

Stravinsky said:


> I wasnt calling you a villain, the smug comment was your word
> 
> The point I was making about sympathy was that this is an expats forum. If i were one of the expats in question and read your comments I would be feeling pretty sad.
> 
> In any case I think you are missing my point.
> 
> You or I have no idea what he real facts are behind these cases. We dont know who was to blame. I dont believe fully what I read in the Olive Press, as I wouldnt necessarily of the UK press. The only people, as you pointed out earlier, are the people involved. And so for you to actively seek and pick out the snippets from the press and then judge everyone based on those is a little hard I feel.
> 
> However, you are of course entitled to your opinion, I just hope I am online when one of the "victims" reads this so I can deflect the certain tirade directed at you


My facts came from a reading of the court judgment. As for this being an expats forum, I don't have one set of views for one group and another for others. They are my views to be accepted or disagreed with.
I actively sought out 'snippets' from the press as I knew nothing of these cases and wanted to ascertain the facts as far as possible before forming an opinion.
As for 'deflecting' criticism -kind of you but don't bother.  I've spent years in politics and had to deal with some very nasty people so I think I won't be losing sleep over harsh words from nice people who understandably won't share my point of view.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> Agree with Stravinsky.
> But events move on:
> (This from my webpage, kindly highlighted somewhere above)
> 
> According to Manuel Bellido, the director of the IPE (Instituto de Práctica Empresarial), since 2006, the descent in the number of homes sold to 'Europeans' in Almería and Malaga has been 90% - that is - in 2006 6,329 homes were sold to extranjeros in Andalucía, in 2009, only 367 homes have been sold.
> And get this!
> Today's 'El Mundo' continues this revelation with the following:
> _'The severe problems which have surfaced in places like Almería - particularly in the Levante and Almanzora areas - to do with the foreigners, mainly British, buying illegal homes in the last few years have caused an understandable climate of distrust in their 'home countries' and the collapse of house prices for Andalucian homes'_.
> It seems that a new organisation, called 'Spanish Homes Network', supported by the Junta de Andalucía and with full legal protection for buyers, will solve all of this...
> 
> I just hope that all these new buyers, these happy and confident home-owners, will spare a thought for the many thousands of fellow-Brits who live in the same area who must still use 'builders electric' and hosepipes and who will continue for many years to live under the threat of demolition by the self-same government that now finally notices the money available out there in the Frozen North.
> 
> It is clear that we need an _agency_ to protect, advise, inform and defend the foreign buyers here - but an _estate agency_?
> 
> See also El Almería with its headline: _'La Junta venderá el stock de viviendas por Europa a través de una plataforma. Innovación y Vivienda impulsan la 'Spanish Homes Network' para ofertar 60.000 inmuebles del litoral mediterráneo (9.000 de Almería) en Reino Unido, Francia y Alemania'_. The Junta de Andalucía will market the overflow of homes with a new platform. The department of Innovation and Housing will promote 'Spanish Homes Network' to offer 60,000 homes on the Mediterranean coast (including 9,000 in Almería) in the UK, Germany and France.
> 
> Unbelievable, hey?


I don't disagree with much of what you write, especially about the one-stop-shop agency to help prosepective purchasers...a very good idea. But I notice that you haven't answered the questions I asked you earlier when I was genuinely seeking information with an open mind.
And I'm curious about your comments referring to 'South Africans (white) ' and 'non-Spanish Europeans'. Could you explain the reasoning behind this apparent segregation?
A poster on this site sent me a report from The Daily Telegraph in which you used words to the effect'if it wasn't for the Brits, the locals would still be growing tomatos and riding donkeys'. Do you think, looking back, that that kind of language was likely to get the 'locals' on your side? After all, that kind of support is essential if anything practical is to be achieved. Do you really think that the headline :'Brits persecuted in Spain' was a fair representation of the facts?
And do you really think that Spain has or wants to rely for its future prosperity on the purchasing power of immigrants, many of them not really that well-off and many of whom tend to spend their money in British-owned businesses? After all, Spain is one of the world's leading economies in spite of its current problems, ranking twelfth, I believe.
Any new homes offered for sale will be safely legal - built with all the requisite 'stamps'. Local authorities in the UK refuse building in some areas but promote it in others. Not 'unbelievable' at all, really.
Incidentally, I notice you are a Norfolk boy. Whereabouts in Norfolk, may I ask?


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## Stravinsky

mrypg9 said:


> As for 'deflecting' criticism -kind of you but don't bother.  I've spent years in politics and had to deal with some very nasty people so I think I won't be losing sleep over harsh words from nice people who understandably won't share my point of view.



Hey, thats my job


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## lenox

Well the white South African is clearly taken out of context - as you would no doubt know (I was talking about different people's - yours too - interpretation of 'Europeans', 'foreigners', 'ingleses' and so on and so forth). Anyway - apologies to all offended.
As for the Daily Telegraph... I certainly never said that, but, they have their own agenda as well. Apologies again to all offended.
Try quoting something against me from my own extensive writings - as editor of The Entertainer for 14 years, El Indálico, Entertainer en Español, The New Entertainer (can't have enough of that name), theentertaineronline.com or Spanish Shilling.
As far as 'non-Spanish Europeans' (I mean 'foreigners', no hold on, uh, Brits and Welsh, no... Germans and well, how about Canadians..?) - they will now be able to buy with confidence - from an estate agency which has a certain edge over the other ones - run of course by either those pesky 'European immigrants' or even ordinary Spaniards. Now, that's not really very fair.
I've passed the link to this thread to the Priors, who will no doubt be fascinated.
I'm from Dereham but haven't been back to the UK much since I was a child.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> Well the white South African is clearly taken out of context - as you would no doubt know (I was talking about different people's - yours too - interpretation of 'Europeans', 'foreigners', 'ingleses' and so on and so forth). Anyway - apologies to all offended.
> As for the Daily Telegraph... I certainly never said that, but, they have their own agenda as well. Apologies again to all offended.
> Try quoting something against me from my own extensive writings - as editor of The Entertainer for 14 years, El Indálico, Entertainer en Español, The New Entertainer (can't have enough of that name), theentertaineronline.com or Spanish Shilling.
> As far as 'non-Spanish Europeans' (I mean 'foreigners', no hold on, uh, Brits and Welsh, no... Germans and well, how about Canadians..?) - they will now be able to buy with confidence - from an estate agency which has a certain edge over the other ones - run of course by either those pesky 'European immigrants' or even ordinary Spaniards. Now, that's not really very fair.
> I've passed the link to this thread to the Priors, who will no doubt be fascinated.
> I'm from Dereham but haven't been back to the UK much since I was a child.



Well, your apologies show that you understand the damage that can be done unintentionally by unguarded comments and how important it is not to comment in such a way that you can be 'taken out of context'. That is one of the most important lessons for a politician to learn.
It seems that the JDA has taken sensible steps in response to the rather biased picture of property purchase in Spain that has been peddled to some sections of the UK media. 
I have a further suggestion: the JDA should call a moratorium on all scheduled demolitions of illegal constructions pending the establishment of an independent panel set up to review the circumstances relating to every single illegal property.
The hearings should be in public and interpreters made available.
If it is found that fraud, deceit, corruption or any unlawful actions leading to the construction and sale of the property took place then the demolition should go ahead but full compensation should be paid to the victim from the sequestered assets of the guilty parties.
If it is proved that there was lack of due diligence on the part of the purchaser then as in the UK they can expect no redress.
Some kind of publicly administered insurance scheme could be set up possibly by imposing a levy on all land sales and developers' profits which could be used to assist people like the Priors who were innocent victims of their unfamiliarity with Spanish planning procedures.
I have to say that intemperate comments which hide or distort the facts will do nothing to help and may only entrench a 'them and us' mentality which encourages the feeling that British immigrants deserve special treatment.
The Priors have a legal route available and I wish them well. I suggested that Articles of the HRA might be helpful here. Since like it or not their house- and many others- is in fact illegal, aggressive tactics will not move the powers-that-be one centimetre.
On a personal note -what a coincidence, I know Dereham very well and have friends who have lived there for years! Small world.
Did you go to school there?


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## mrypg9

I also meant to say in my last post that surely you should be rejoicing that the JDA has at last taken steps to bring some order and security into the foreign property market, not having a 'sour grapes' attitude.
Better late than never.
If your campaigning has had anything to do with their action, you should be pleased.
And if you think my proposal as set out in my previous post has any mileage, feel free to run with it.
As I said before, my political activities are long over.


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## Stravinsky

I dont think we should underestimate the importance of foreign owners as a source of revenue to the Spanish economy. It may be the 12th largest economy in the world where did you get figures?), but when you consider the amount of foreign (expat) investment in the past that could be lost because of this ongoing subject, its very serious for them.

As someone posted on another forum, if you take a million brit expats spending an average of €15k a year to live, and then the investment in property .... its not insignificant.

A huge amount of Spains economy has historically been based on tourism and the building sector


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> I dont think we should underestimate the importance of foreign owners as a source of revenue to the Spanish economy. It may be the 12th largest economy in the world where did you get figures?), but when you consider the amount of foreign (expat) investment in the past that could be lost because of this ongoing subject, its very serious for them.


Here are some figures - not sure if they are relevant or not...

Según World Economic Forum España sigue perdiendo competitvidad | Economy Weblog

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.cia.gov/library/publica...Spain&countryCode=sp&regionCode=eu&rank=13#sp


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## mrypg9

I think it depends on your source. Can't remember exactly where I got my ranking but it seems it was too low.
But whatever the figures, it is clear that Spain is amongst the world's richest countries and certainly not inhabited by 'donkey-riding tomato growers' or 'lazy, moronic, backward' people.
This latter wwas among the comments I found on another forum.
If I were lenox and had been misquoted, I would have immediately demanded a retraction and apology, as I had to do on a couple of occasions when misquoted in the press.
This is after all a sensitive matter.
Any extra source of revenue is of course welcome and no-one would close their hands to foreigners' money but I would be interested to know what percentage of it goes directly to Spanish business as opposed to British and German etc? Plus many people will not be paying taxes here because of Double Taxation Agreements. There's also the cost of health care for the immigrants who are mainly elderly. I know the NHS transfers individual contributions via the E121 but nevertheless the relatively sudden impact of the arrival of large numbers of older people will cause adjustment problems for local health providers, especially in rural areas.
Of course people should be encouraged to retire in Spain -I'm here, after all -but as I've said before, it can never be high on the list of priorities for the restoration to health of Spain's currently sick economy.
Incidentally, Strav, you misquoted me: I said 'many' not 'all' illegal properties should be demolished!


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## mrypg9

CIA source shows purchasing power, not GDP, I see. And the UK only ranking 8th to Spain's 13th in 2008!!


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## lenox

Quoted from the 67 comments (well worth reading) 
Spanish 'persecuting' expatriates over homes
'I had sent this to you before - but it appears to have been 'spiked'. I was shown a copy of the Telegraph today. Apparently I told the reporter ' "It is out-and-out persecution of the expat community," said Lenox Napier, a 40-year resident of Mojacar and the secretary of the Ciudadanos Europeos Party, which will lead the demonstrations next week'. Doesn't sound like me, and as I recall, we were drinking coffees at the time. Anyhow, never let a fact get in the way of a good story'. Lenox Napier 
The impact of foreigners - the wealthy ones that spend money in Spain - is enormous. Tourists - 55 million foreigners in a good year. Northern European residents - a million at least (house, car, washing machine, furniture, clothing, food and a packet of cigarettes). All generate a huge number of jobs and all take, in exchange, a bit of sunburn and a hangover. That's invisible exports - the best there is.
Actually, I think you are taking the piss - far as I'm concerned, it's either pistols or beers at dawn.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> Quoted from the 67 comments (well worth reading)
> [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/4205137/
> Actually, I think you are taking the piss - far as I'm concerned, it's either pistols or beers at dawn.


Lenox, I could take you on any day with one hand tied behind my back.. : child cruelty 
And it would be G&T not beer.
Why oh why don't you answer straight questions? Someone else commented on your tendency to post and vanish.
As for 'taking the piss'....a rather juvenile comment on a serious discussion, no?
I've asked you a straight question about my proposal for an independent panel and that's all you can say????
The only illuminating comments on this specific topic have come from Pesky Wesky who posted the text of the Court Judgment which set out the relevant history and Tallulah.
You will have to develop a thicker skin if you have serious political aspirations. 
And an ability to answer questions and not cut and run.
I still have from my work many UK contacts in the media, politics and law -including Government Ministers and the BBC -which could just possibly be useful but I have read nothing from you which points to a practical solution to the mess. 
Shouldn't you be stirring your marmalade and polishing your Morris bells?


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## mrypg9

Anyway Lenox, on a more friendly note -I know Dereham well. My Housing ASssociation, which was active all over South-Eastern England, held its Board Meetings there from time to time.
Some names you might know: Johnny Duigan (solicitor, probably dead now); the Floehrings (owned a machine company on the Rashes Green Estate) the Potter Brothers (demolition contractors); the Carringtons of Neatherd (teachers) and many others. You may have known them in the time you lived there, maybe not.
Dereham has changed a lot, like everywhere else. It's now the HQ of the District Council. Incidentally, the former CEO of the Council lives a few minutes away from here. I didn't know that and was gobsmacked to meet him as we were both dogwalking on the beach - I hadn't been in touch for about five years and didn't even know he had left the UK. Small world indeed.
This silly bickering between people who essentially share the same aim is pointless. We seem to disagree on strategy and tactics and here I have suggested two possible ways forward. Neither may be useful but until they are further investigated we can't know.
Another useful thing I learnt in politics is that people who disagree with you are not your enemies, just people with different views. Argue, occasionally roughly, but drink together afterwards.
I never had to go 'pistols at dawn' with anyone although I gave as good as I got....and I got a lot of stick on some issues.
I'm posting a lot today as it's raining very hard for the second day running....can't go out.


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## lenox

The Junta de Andalucía won't raise an independent panel on the Prior's house since the whole reason behind the demolition was political. 
They lost any reason they had in the international fora. The result has been a precipitous drop in the sale of property in Almería, the arrival of foreign monies and the creation of jobs.
Now, _economically_, this is madness. But, Spain operates on politics/power over money.
Since I'm just a foreign devil posting on foreign fora and writing on foreign blogs and being interviewed on foreign media and - as is well-known - any and all experts on _extranjeros_, _turísmo_,_ los europeos_, etc are and must be Spanish - there is not much I can do inside the system. 
Also, there is famously no rule of law in Spain and we put up with that or we leave (I'm staying, I think).
However, a falta de hombres buenos, a mi padre hicieron alcalde.

PS I left Dereham as a boy - don't know anyone there. 
I'm glad we've agreed to gin and tonics.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> The Junta de Andalucía won't raise an independent panel on the Prior's house since the whole reason behind the demolition was political.
> They lost any reason they had in the international fora. The result has been a precipitous drop in the sale of property in Almería, the arrival of foreign monies and the creation of jobs.
> Now, _economically_, this is madness. But, Spain operates on politics/power over money.
> Since I'm just a foreign devil posting on foreign fora and writing on foreign blogs and being interviewed on foreign media and - as is well-known - any and all experts on _extranjeros_, _turísmo_,_ los europeos_, etc are and must be Spanish - there is not much I can do inside the system.
> Also, there is famously no rule of law in Spain and we put up with that or we leave (I'm staying, I think).
> However, a falta de hombres buenos, a mi padre hicieron alcalde.
> 
> PS I left Dereham as a boy - don't know anyone there.
> I'm glad we've agreed to gin and tonics.



Lenox, with respect, this is just your opinion. You are not the only person who can help, and although you are clearly putting a lot of work into this campaign,I'm sure there are other people, Spaniards too, who would play an active role in a campaign with a definite focus. (Not me, I hasten to add, I can only make suggestions) Having read the Court ruling I cannot see how you can say that the motives behind the Priors' case were political. I agree that could well be so in some cases but the facts as considered by the Court, which was sympathetic to the Priors, in no way bear that out.
Surely anything new is worth a try as nothing seems to have achieved anything so far?
Anyway, if you're not interested, I'm going to float this idea on this and other fora as someone may think it a good idea.
BTW, you have missed nothing by not going back to Dereham.
And mine is a very large G&T....


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## lenox

you say that 'surely something new is worth a try...'
How about 'European Property Owners Day'


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## jojo

Having skimmed the last batch of posts - I still cant deal with this "them and us" attitude!!! Its like we're trying to start a "war" with the spanish junta over this! I think its disrespectful and its that attitude I dont like. I have every sympathy with those involved in losing their homes and stand by them in everyway, but I hate this "we must fight to win" Stop it - it makes us Brits look rude, offensive and arrogant! I said once before on this threa, if I were spanish, my attitude to all this "uprising would be" serves em right for coming into our country and riding roughshod over it and building their houses where they think they will and increasing prices so that our own can no longer afford em"!!!! A bit of humillity and humblemess I'm sure would help to mend broken bridges and create a friendly and more rewarding partnership between the junta and those who have had their homes declared illegal. The comments made previou8sly when I said this were "that'll teach 'em, that'll show 'em" - prove my point and whoever made them is showing that it isnt a happy ending that he's wanting but a battle that he personally wants to win IMO

So any of these people who've been involved in illegal properties and all the grief that goes with them are welcome to not only join us and contribute but know that they would get sympathy and any help that we could offer, without a hidden agenda


Jo xxx

I


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> you say that 'surely something new is worth a try...'
> How about 'European Property Owners Day'



Lenox....do you not READ????
*I suggested it be the focal point of the day you and others are planning. .....*
You are giving the impression, however unintentional, that this is your cause and yours alone.
And I do wish you wouldn't be so evasive when you are asked questions. You couldn't get away with that if you were publicly challenged.
Talk of political influence, corruption and other skulduggery has to be backed by solid evidence.


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## mrypg9

lenox said:


> The Junta de Andalucía won't raise an independent panel on the Prior's house since the whole reason behind the demolition was political.
> .


Again: please read carefully. I made the proposal not just for the Priors but for the alleged tens of thousands of others.
Please provide PROOF that the decision in their case was political. 
I wonder if you have read the judgment? Did you read Tallulah's post? Or are you saying or implying the judges are corrupt too? 
If that's the case you must provide proof as you are making very serious allegations and if you made them in the UK you could find yourself before a court unless you could back them up with proof.
This could be the case here - I'm sure Spain has libel and slander laws -and you never know who might be reading these posts, after all
I really would like to get in touch with the Priors and others whose homes are threatened.


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