# Can I drive Irish reg car and open business as a sole trader



## mcgyverinportugal

Hi just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this. I am coming to Portugal for 5 months and opening a business as a sole trader and I wondered if I can do this without applying for residency? I think this would allow me to drive my Irish reg car for the 5 months and at this stage I could make a decision to stay and become resident and matriculate my car or return home.


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## canoeman

A couple of issues
1. 5 months means registering as a Resident as has already been posted a Resident *cannot drive* a foreign plated vehicle or trailer in Portugal 

2. A visitor i.e. sometime staying here *less* than 3 months *cannot* use their vehicle or trailer *for any commercial use or gain at all*

As you want to trade in some capacity then you can't afford to be legal in one way and illegal in another, nothing to stop you earning money in Portugal and declaring and paying tax, yes you could register as a sole trader but not if your here +3 months as I think it would complicate your life tremendously


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## BodgieMcBodge

Hi,

Is your vehicle classed "private" or "commercial" ? Will you be based in one area ?



mcgyverinportugal said:


> Hi just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this. I am coming to Portugal for 5 months and opening a business as a sole trader and I wondered if I can do this without applying for residency? I think this would allow me to drive my Irish reg car for the 5 months and at this stage I could make a decision to stay and become resident and matriculate my car or return home.


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## canoeman

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Hi,
> 
> Is your vehicle classed "private" or "commercial" ? Will you be based in one area ?


It makes very little difference, OP status doesn't really fall into the cat as below and there isn't another, I sympathise with what he's trying to do, unfortunately varies laws make it virtually impossible unless he limits his stays to under 3 months, a weekend trip across border for him & vehicles isn't sufficient too reset clock as his business is catering the last thing he would need is falling foul of the ASAEA especially in the Algarve where they are extremely active and heavy handed or he goes the whole hog and registers as a Resident & matriculates both vehicles from outset, he doesn't have to wait 3 months he can do it from Day 1 but a big decision
"Self-employed cross-border workers

If you are self-employed, living in country A and working in country B, you may use your company car in country A without having to register it there only if:

the car was bought in your company's name;
you use it in country A mainly for your work and only occasionally for private purposes;
your company is legally based in another country.
Please note that a company car must be bought in your company's name. If you drive a car bought in your own name, you must register it in the country where you live."


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## mcgyverinportugal

Hi guys thanks for the response. . The vehicle is private and I wanted to matriculate a catering trailer and buy a Portuguese towing vehicle and use those for commercial purposes.. The car in question is a private owned car for social/domestic purposes but if I need to be a resident to matriculate the trailer then I won't be able to drive my Irish car anyway  .. canoeman I am opening Portuguese version of an Irish company so if I was to buy the trailer and towing vehicle under the company name would I still need to matriculate or just adhere to Portuguese health and safety licences permits etc..?


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## canoeman

You could matriculate your current Irish car if you've owned long enough, you can matriculate the Irish trailer *once you are a Registered Resident* not until.
As you need to tow it here anyway this would seem the cheapest option

If you set up a company here and the vehicles are for use here then they must be Portuguese plated, if they were Irish or another country then the vehicle 183 days apply + Residence rules + visitor 3 month rule


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## mcgyverinportugal

It sure does look like the cheapest option canoeman thank you so much. If i register as resident then matriculate both my car and trailer does anyone know if there is a customs office near albufeira as I am shipping the trailer direct to albufeira. I know there is an imtt centre in faro that i can get tests, certs etc done but if i need to pass it through customs do i have to travel to Lisbon or is there a local office?


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## canoeman

Your local Customs for matriculation on the Algarve is Faro, it's very important that you have all paperwork correct with every i&t crossed as a couple of forum members would confirm, Faro don't have the best reputation for helpfulness, there might be a IPO are MOT test centres but is it the one that can do Cat b testing, IMTT are driving Licences for the registration plates not tests


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## mcgyverinportugal

Thanks once again canoeman, I know the difference between centres but with the language barrier I could imagine it would be a lot more difficult for me to understand so I will have help once I'm there.. The reason I understand the difference is because i habe no paperwork for my trailer in Ireland so I've asked an agent to find out what papers I need... There is an Irish equivalent to the certificate of conformity which won't be recognised in Portugal therefore I would need a new test. I'm hoping they would accept the ECWVTA as shown below in a caption from the N.S.A.I. in ireland. I know these standards are possibly irrelevant in Portugal but worth a try to see if they accept the ECWVTA.
-----------------------
"There are 3 options available for manufacturers to have their trailers type approved:
Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA)
National Small Series type Approval (NSSTA)
European Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA)

Depending on the type of business you are in and the range of trailers (and the intended market) any of the 3 options above might suit your needs. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages as regards cost and validity. If you are manufacturing small quantities of trailers intended for the Irish market than an IVA or NSSTA might best suit your needs. If your intended market is for outside of Ireland than ECWVTA would be advisable as there is no guarantee that another member state would accept an Irish National Approval i.e. IVA or NSSTA in their territory"
--------------------------
I will contact the relevant authority in Portugal to see if this document would suffice or even speed the process up a little. I will post up how I get on with this as soon as I receive any info on this.


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## canoeman

A *CoC is a recognized EU document*, it was introduced by EU as a common standard that cars. trailers should have so I can't see a reason why it would not be accepted by Portuguese Customs etc, the regulations say you must have a CoC or the equivalent which appears to be the ECWVTA.


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## Janina k

Hello

If the trailer was never made to be exported that may be the reason for no COC. If this is the case if you go to the IMTT as my brother did they called the Chief engineer down from his office to expalin that you can have a new document made by using a quailified engineer to draw it up for you. I have no contact with my brother for a little while to get any further information for you but i will try over the next few days. His trailer was a Lynton Loadlugger but the Engineer did after seeing the trailer confirm that a new document could be created for it to be matriculated.

I am so sorry that i can't give you any more information but all the best of luck.

Krystyna


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## mcgyverinportugal

Thank you krystyna I think that is the case with my trailer. It just has the production date stamped on, nothing else so I am getting a c.o.c. In Ireland from the relevant authorities to save me the hassle of getting an engineer in Portugal to approve my trailer. Maybe im wrong but I'm just trying to do as much as I can here to save me hassle (less hassle  ) when I get to Portugal... as my trailer is a catering trailer and was modified as in catering equipment was installed then because it's not a standard issue trailer then I might have some more issues with certification. If you are speaking with your brother at any stage and have any more info I would be greatful. I am not going over until mid march but I'm doing my homework before I go so I can hit the ground running. Many thanks again


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## mcgyverinportugal

Thanks again canoeman for clarifying that for me..


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## canoeman

Get it sorted before you arrive here especially in dealing with Faro as the trailer is a personal import you must start the process within 20 days of trailer arriving in Portugal yet cannot start process until you 1st register residence a sort time span your car though you have 6 months from your Irish exit date to start process but can start as soon as you register residence but once both process started you could tow and also obtain Portuguese insurance.


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## IanW

canoeman said:


> A couple of issues
> 1. 5 months means registering as a Resident as has already been posted a Resident *cannot drive* a foreign plated vehicle or trailer in Portugal


eh???

You have 6 months on a foreign plate car???


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## canoeman

IanW said:


> eh???
> 
> You have 6 months on a foreign plate car???


Not exactley
If you are a Registered Resident you cannot drive a foreign plated car without special permission

If you are a NON Resident you can drive a foreign plated car for up to 183 days in ANY 12 month period, you cannot at any time use that vehicle for "gain"

As a NON Resident you can only stay in ANY EU country for 3 months without registering that Residence


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## IanW

That would imply that you can't drive a foreign vehicle in another country for more than 3 consecutive months.

How can it be both 3 and 6?


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## canoeman

Not implying you *can't* at 3 months the requirement to register your Residence starts, once you are a Resident without special permission or meeting certain conditions then you *cannot legally *drive a foreign plated vehicle

This is EU Law and where it comes from it is not just a Portuguese Law and is common to all EU countries

It can be 6 months as an example if you drove your Portuguese car to lets say France for holidays in February for 2 weeks in March 6 weeks glutton for punishment in August 11 weeks then again October 4 weeks and Christmas 2 weeks

In Total you have spent 25 weeks in France but not broken the 3 month resident rule or the 183 day car rule or the 6 month living in Portugal Residence rule


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## BodgieMcBodge

You are caught up in a bit of a mess as various bits of the EU had different road trailer requirements and are all slowly implementing Directive 2007/46/EC to make their systems compatible. As coc was not required in some countries the trailers there did not have them but by the dates in the directive they will all need them. In the transition period IVA inspections are needed where no coc was originally issued. You may also find, if your trailer has been modified - one company made the road going bit and another made the superstructure - that it all gets covered by IVA where as coc may not cover the superstructure so being a PITA if there's an inspection in the destination country.



mcgyverinportugal said:


> Thanks once again canoeman, I know the difference between centres but with the language barrier I could imagine it would be a lot more difficult for me to understand so I will have help once I'm there.. The reason I understand the difference is because i habe no paperwork for my trailer in Ireland so I've asked an agent to find out what papers I need... There is an Irish equivalent to the certificate of conformity which won't be recognised in Portugal therefore I would need a new test. I'm hoping they would accept the ECWVTA as shown below in a caption from the N.S.A.I. in ireland. I know these standards are possibly irrelevant in Portugal but worth a try to see if they accept the ECWVTA.
> -----------------------
> "There are 3 options available for manufacturers to have their trailers type approved:
> Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA)
> National Small Series type Approval (NSSTA)
> European Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA)
> 
> Depending on the type of business you are in and the range of trailers (and the intended market) any of the 3 options above might suit your needs. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages as regards cost and validity. If you are manufacturing small quantities of trailers intended for the Irish market than an IVA or NSSTA might best suit your needs. If your intended market is for outside of Ireland than ECWVTA would be advisable as there is no guarantee that another member state would accept an Irish National Approval i.e. IVA or NSSTA in their territory"
> --------------------------
> I will contact the relevant authority in Portugal to see if this document would suffice or even speed the process up a little. I will post up how I get on with this as soon as I receive any info on this.


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## canoeman

BodgieMcBodge said:


> You are caught up in a bit of a mess as various bits of the EU had different road trailer requirements and are all slowly implementing Directive 2007/46/EC to make their systems compatible. As coc was not required in some countries the trailers there did not have them but by the dates in the directive they will all need them.]
> 
> It still comes down to the requirement of the country your *importing into* if Portugal states requirement of a CoC or equivalent *which they do*, then that must be what is supplied


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## BodgieMcBodge

coc


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## IanW

canoeman said:


> Not implying you *can't* at 3 months the requirement to register your Residence starts, once you are a Resident without special permission or meeting certain conditions then you *cannot legally *drive a foreign plated vehicle
> 
> This is EU Law and where it comes from it is not just a Portuguese Law and is common to all EU countries
> 
> It can be 6 months as an example if you drove your Portuguese car to lets say France for holidays in February for 2 weeks in March 6 weeks glutton for punishment in August 11 weeks then again October 4 weeks and Christmas 2 weeks
> 
> In Total you have spent 25 weeks in France but not broken the 3 month resident rule or the 183 day car rule or the 6 month living in Portugal Residence rule


That would imply that if you hired a vehicle abroad, you could not drive it to your own country. If it is true, then that is daft.

Funny how people on this forum have always stated that you can legally drive a car for up to 6 months and now you are saying it is is only really 3 months at any one time.

If you are correct, and everyone else is wrong, then that law is broken daily.


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## canoeman

Why would you hire a vehicle abroad and want to drive it in your own country, I can visit any EU country and legally drive a car in those countries, what I shouldn't do is to say hire a car in France and drive it in Portugal my country of residence thats supposing the hire company allows cross border travel a lot don't.

The law is plain a *visitor* to Portugal can legally bring a car in for a maximum of 183 days cumlative in any 12 month period, but they must limit their stay to a maximum of 3 months less 1 day, a Resident *can't*

I'm struggling to see what you don't understand, it's very simple a Visitor is someone who doesn't break the 3 month rule and should abide by the 183 day rule, overstayers are a different kettle of fish and break the 3 month & 183 day rules every day.


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## BodgieMcBodge

Quote "I'm struggling to see what you don't understand, it's very simple a Visitor is someone who doesn't break the 3 month rule and should abide by the 183 day rule,* overstayers are a different kettle of fish and break the 3 month & 183 day rules every day*. " 

Surely that is not true, they only can only break the 3 month rule AFTER being in country 3 months..thats why it is a 3 mounth rule.


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## canoeman

Overstayers I take to mean someone who has ignored the 3 month rule, the clock started ticking for them from the first date they entered the country with regards the 183 day rule.


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## IanW

You have up to 4 months anyway to register.


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## BodgieMcBodge

canoeman said:


> It still comes down to the requirement of the country your *importing into* if Portugal states requirement of a CoC or equivalent *which they do*, then that must be what is supplied



coc is issued in place of manufacture/original retail sale re: Directive 2007/46/EC showing the item complies. With no coc the manufacture/original retail would only produce off-road items. Example such as bringing European LHD vehicles into the UK the coc covers the headlights for LHD but not for the UK requirement of driving on the right which is needed to UK register the vehicle.


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## IanW

canoeman said:


> Why would you hire a vehicle abroad and want to drive it in your own country, I can visit any EU country and legally drive a car in those countries, what I shouldn't do is to say hire a car in France and drive it in Portugal my country of residence thats supposing the hire company allows cross border travel a lot don't.
> 
> The law is plain a *visitor* to Portugal can legally bring a car in for a maximum of 183 days cumlative in any 12 month period, but they must limit their stay to a maximum of 3 months less 1 day, a Resident *can't*
> 
> I'm struggling to see what you don't understand, it's very simple a Visitor is someone who doesn't break the 3 month rule and should abide by the 183 day rule, overstayers are a different kettle of fish and break the 3 month & 183 day rules every day.


A good example is hiring a vehicle to move items. You are saying that as a Portuguese resident I could not fly to the UK, hire a vehicle and drive it to Portugal and back to the UK, nor could I hire one in Portugal before becoming a resident and driving back to the UK to pick up items. So before saying why would anyone do it, well there are many reasons to do it. Crazy if it is true.


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## canoeman

In my experience to date which is helping 11 owners through importation process, Portugal states that a CoC *or the equivalent acceptable document* is reguired as part of supporting paperwork to matriculate a vehicle of any description without either Customs refuse the application, the last thing op needs is to arrive in Portugal and find that his paperwork would be rejected which would put all his plans at risk


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## canoeman

IanW said:


> A good example is hiring a vehicle to move items. You are saying that as a Portuguese resident I could not fly to the UK, hire a vehicle and drive it to Portugal and back to the UK, nor could I hire one in Portugal before becoming a resident and driving back to the UK to pick up items. So before saying why would anyone do it, well there are many reasons to do it. Crazy if it is true.


That is current state of play crazy or not, there are proposals and talks to simplify the whole issue of use of car and registration supposedly in the lifetime of the current EU parliament will it happen?


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## RichardHenshall

IanW said:


> A good example is hiring a vehicle to move items. You are saying that as a Portuguese resident I could not fly to the UK, hire a vehicle and drive it to Portugal and back to the UK, nor could I hire one in Portugal before becoming a resident and driving back to the UK to pick up items. So before saying why would anyone do it, well there are many reasons to do it. Crazy if it is true.


It can be done! As a PT resident you hire a PT registered van in the UK, or as a UK resident hire a UK registered van in PT. Simples! If you can find one.


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## 229926

*More EC BS*



canoeman said:


> Please note that a company car must be bought in your company's name. If you drive a car bought in your own name, you must register it in the country where you live."


This is total nonsense from the EC legal "help" desk (ECAS). It is a contradiction in terms (please note, the above ECAS statement pertains to / is under the section for self-employed cross border workers).

If you are self employed, there is no company name besides your own (maybe trading as whatever). But you can not register a car in the trading name as, unlike a formalized limited company name, it is merely a trading style. So the ONLY name you can register a car in is the legal entity name; your own name if you are self employed.

I am trying to get the EC / ECAS to change their "advice" now. The problem is that it is a grey area. BUT if you have a self-employed business registered in another member state with a *physicial presence* in that member state, and if your business operates primarily in that other member state, then there should be no lawful reason why a person could not have a car in their name registered in that other memeber state (think Spain), and use it for limited purposes in Portugal (in this case). There are EC Regulations that protect your right to work in another member state and also to ensure you are not fiscally disadvantaged. It is a minefield however.

BTW I am (perhaps) resident in Spain and Portugal, though the game is "Which is my primary residence?", for which there is no short answer, and the actual answer is riddled with holes like a certain cheese and which I would not publish here for the benefit of those that enjoy and benefit from those cheesy holes.

:rain:


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## canoeman

The whole quote makes more sense than just a snippet
""Self-employed cross-border workers

If you are self-employed, living in country A and working in country B, you may use your company car in country A without having to register it there only if:

the car was bought in your company's name;
you use it in country A mainly for your work and only occasionally for private purposes;
your company is legally based in another country.
Please note that a company car must be bought in your company's name. If you drive a car bought in your own name, you must register it in the country where you live."

Re Residence then your Primary Residence must be one or the other which then says what you can or cannot do or how you organize yourself, yes there's lots of grey areas but your Primary residence sorts most out


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> Re Residence then your Primary Residence must be one or the other which then says what you can or cannot do or how you organize yourself, yes there's lots of grey areas but your Primary residence sorts most out


No, it does not.

First, it fails to sort out the fact you can NOT register a car in the name of a Trading Style used by a self-employed worker.

Also, the ECAS statement is 100% for (if we keep with the Portugese / Spanish context) someone primarily resident in Portugal. But, in order to operate a self-employed business in Spain, you also need residence there. And, as I have alluded, the rules relating to determination of primary residence are not easy for anyone to determine in reality and can only be adjudicated by the two parties (Spain and Portugal) together - I recommend you read the double tax treaty between them.

So your saying my / someone's Primary residence sorts it out is flawed, as you can not determine my primary residence that easily, if at all. And, if I wanted to, I could claim primary residence here, there or anywhere (UK) with some substance. Again, not wishing to get into detail for the benefit of those people who have also worked such matters out, especially with regard to the Portuguese Tax Regulations of 2009 regarding Non-habitual tax residents. If you do not know about these, I can really recommend your reading them.

So, with respect, before you use a generic dismissal like that, you should read up on the regs first.

And at the end of the day, the fact remains, you can not register a car anywhere in a trading name, only in a legal entity name.


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## canoeman

Well you continue to try to make your circumstances fit your theory, rules on Primary residence are perfectly easy to determine there laid down by EU and each country follows the same format the only difference is where or how each country says you must Register, so it seems to me maybe you should read up on the regs you could start here URLs being blocked try typing in Your Europe


Tax residency is a totally different area with slightly more complex rules as you can be considered a Tax Resident of more than 1 country.

To qualify for the Non Habitual Resident requires you to be classified as a Portuguese Tax Resident and covers income earned outside Portugal which may or may not be tax exempt depending on source, treaties etc the scheme doesn't absolve you of tax but sets a beneficial rate for 10 years if you and earnings qualified, if would only be advantageous for those that would pay more than 42%, the scheme has no bearing on the ownership or registration of cars.

How you register a vehicle depends on your country of Residence as you have to abide by that countries laws.


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> To qualify for the Non Habitual Resident requires you to be classified as a Portuguese Tax Resident


I know well enough what it entails, thank you. But your declaring being tax residency does not mean you are. And, if you declare tax residency in enough places, they (if they want to) have one hell of a job trying to ascertain where if any country your permanent tax residency is. You, with respect, are beginning to sound like an accountant. Well you can not account for numbers that change and where points of fact move; "I guess I speant more time in Spain than Portugal. My wife, we are spearated, lived most of the time though in Portugal. Wait, I think I speant more time in the UK, or is it sleeping hours, where I have a business, as I do in Spain, though in the UK I only receive dividends. Hmmm, which of my homes is my "permanent" home, you see the one where you think I am most primary resident is for sale, so it is not permanent. And so on."

:fencing:

Anyway, you seem to want to argue to deflect.

The reply was concerning the fact that you repeated the uttler BS of ECAS, that a self-employed person has to regieter their "company" car in their "company" name, which is impossible, a contradiction in terms. 

PS I got a sticky mail saying "Welcome to the canoeman forum" ound:


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## canoeman

Oh great another ?????? trying to make his own rules up, what odd posts for someone so new to a Spanish & Portuguese Forum


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## IanW

One thing that I have learnt here is that canoeman is always right


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## canoeman

Not always but certainly well informed


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> Oh great another ?????? trying to make his own rules up, what odd posts for someone so new to a Spanish & Portuguese Forum


You distract, because you know that you are wrong, and your need to be right is greater than your need for the truth.

1) A self-employed person can not register their business vehicle / car in their company name (as you stated), as there is no company, as the business name is a trading name / style not a legal entity name. You keep avoiding replying to this point, why?

2) By your direction, by saying that a person must register the car they use in the country they live in, you are saying that self-employed people who are cross-border workers do not have the right to a vehicle under the same conditions as someone that works for a company (in the other member state). That is BS; such a situation would breach two EC Regulations with regard to cross-border workers alone, the right to conduct business in another member state and the right for that business / person to be disadvantaged. Not to mention freedom of movement.

If I were primarily resident in Portugal but was self-employed with my own business registered in Spain, where I needed a company vehicle for that business, I would be entitled to the same and not have to register that vehicle in Portugal. Not least because I would get problems with the local Spanish council (non-payment of their vehicle tax) and police in Spain; I also would not have a properly insured car in Spain, as Portuguese insurance does not cover the driver for business conducted for his Spanish business while in Spain.

So, you are arguing for the sake of it. You are not providing people with helpful advice. You are speaking for the sake of defending your own untenable position. You like to be the expert, when you are not.

:boxing:


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## 229926

IanW said:


> One thing that I have learnt here is that canoeman is always right


You must be married to him.


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## Janina k

Hello

The original poster asked questions and assumed that EU rules and regulations mean something here in Portugal. From what i have read over the years is that with regards to cars it's what Portugal says with respect to cars. After all it's there country and for those of us who choose to live here we must do as the Portuguese say nothing we say will make them change things.

The original poster can always take on the Portuguese but would he win with his argument he would use saying this is what the EU say. I would think he would not win.

Fred


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## 229926

*Portuguese Non-Habitual Residency / Spanish Company Car*

If you want the no-nonsense facts about non-habitual residency in Portugal (there is so much waffle and misinformation on the subject), you should visit the information pages by International tax advisers / accountants like KPMG.

I hope this might help some people with the loopholes that exist, in this case regarding the prospect of having a much cheaper Spanish registered car for use in Portugal (a mid range BMW or Mercedes will cost you 14000 Euros less in Spain than in Portugal, due to massive back door tax Portuguese registration fees).

KPMG
Tax residency
A person qualifies as a resident for tax purposes in Portugal provided that the person is physically present in Portugal for more than 183 days during the calendar year, either continuously or not, or that the person owns a home in Portugal at December 31 of the relevant year with the intention to use and occupy it as a habitual residence.

The special regime for nonhabitual tax residents will apply provided that the individual:
•
Has not been taxed as resident in Portugal in the last five years
•
Qualifies as tax resident in Portugal under the domestic rules in each year of that 10-year period
•
Is registered as a “nonhabitual” tax resident with the Portuguese tax authorities

Thus, a non-habitual resident may well be primarily resident in Portugal but not primarily tax resident, which thereby opens the door for them to have residency also in Spain which, if that is where they legally base their business (and there are several tax benefit reasons for doing that), they thereby can buy or rent or lease a car in Spain IN THEIR OWN NAME as long as it is fully or partly for business use Which you would want to be, to benefit from a 50% Spanish IVA refund for example).


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## 229926

Janina k said:


> Hello
> 
> The original poster asked questions and assumed that EU rules and regulations mean something here in Portugal. From what i have read over the years is that with regards to cars it's what Portugal says with respect to cars. After all it's there country and for those of us who choose to live here we must do as the Portuguese say nothing we say will make them change things.
> 
> The original poster can always take on the Portuguese but would he win with his argument he would use saying this is what the EU say. I would think he would not win.
> 
> Fred


Hello Fred
EC Regulations do mean something in Portugal; Portugal is a member state of the EU and is legally bound by EC Regulations.

Sure, the Portuguese can ignore EC Regulations as they are sometimes perhaps prone, but that is where having a lawyer with a brain and knowledge of European Court of Justice rulings comes in handy (problem is, I admit, not many Portuguese lawyers / judges look at European Court of Justice rulings, as they are very inward looking). And, if you want, you can make money from Portugal for acting unlawfully against you.

I have heard of people having their foreign registered cars seized in Portugal (for avoiding payment of taxes / registration fees), but this is unlawful; "The temporary immobilisation of a motor vehicle in order to secure the settling of a tax liability is disproportionate (C-156/04, Commission v Greece - European Court's of Justice )." The police should issue you with a ticket to challenge if you wish, which you should, and then sue them for issuing that ticket.


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## canoeman

I did not state but posted information about EU regulations, I really don't understand your question a self employed person can register a vehicle in their name or it can be bought and registered in the name of a company for the use of that companies employees of which you or they could be employed or self employed, how you can use that vehicle then depends on where you live or work and whatever laws are in place that govern that.

I'm saying that you must register a vehicle according to the laws of the country your Resident in.
So if you're a Resident in Portugal then thats where the vehicle must be registered, unless as below you can have use of the vehicle as a cross border worker .
If Spain allows you as a Non Resident to have a Spanish business and car then you abide by Spanish law for that business and car

Cross border workers have slightly different problems as they are governed by the laws of the country their resident in and work in. 

Again I'm quoting EU regulations if you think their ******** then take it up with the EU 

"Cross-border workers

You are a cross-border worker (employed or self-employed) if you work on one side of a national border but live on the other, and return home at least once a week.

If you use your own car to commute regularly from the country where you live to the country where you work, you have to register it and pay the relevant taxes in the country where you live - but not in the country where you work.

If you drive a company car (registered in the country where you work), you may use it for private purposes in the country where you live without having to register it there. You would then be driving with foreign plates in the country where you live. This may cause concern for the local police, who have to check that people under their jurisdiction have paid national vehicle registration taxes."


Really
_"So, you are arguing for the sake of it. You are not providing people with helpful advice. You are speaking for the sake of defending your own untenable position. You like to be the expert, when you are not."_
to me it appears your complicating a relatively simple matter and creating further confusion


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> Again I'm quoting EU regulations if you think their ******** then take it up with the EU


No, you are requoting bad advice from ECAS, as I have already explained. And, as I have already stated, they have been told the advice they give is flawed, so expect it to change soon.

Also, you do not take up issues relating to cross-border rights with the EU, you take them up with the European Commission.


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> to me it appears your complicating a relatively simple matter and creating further confusion


1) Cross border worker rights are not simple.
2) It is you that creates the confusion, by arguing that a self-employed worker with their business in Spain must register their business vehicle in Portugal; this is false, as I have substantiated.


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## 229926

Travlur said:


> 2) It is you that creates the confusion, by arguing that a self-employed worker with their business in Spain must register their business vehicle in Portugal; this is false, as I have substantiated.


PS / Caveat: Depending on your actual primary tax residence, whether you own or lease / rent the car (and the purposes for which you wish to use the car in Portugal), you may need / be advised to apply for a Portuguese "guía de circulación"


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## canoeman

Quotes are *not* from ECAS but from Your EU which covers basic rights of EU Citizens

2 I said no such thing

Your postings are really so far off the mark, to be ridiculous, loopholes very few as anyone who has applied for Non Habitual Scheme can tell you and scheme has no bearing on car ownership that is decided on where your Primary Residence is not where you might be considered a Non Habitual Resident


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> Your postings are really so far off the mark, to be ridiculous, loopholes very few as anyone who has applied for Non Habitual Scheme can tell you and scheme has no bearing on car ownership that is decided on where your Primary Residence is not where you might be considered a Non Habitual Resident


 :lalala:

Have you applied for Non-Habitual Residency? Have you had legal (tax law) advice on the subject? I doubt it, and I doubt anyone you know has, despite the fact I am sure you will claim you have / do.

Again, the subject is cross border worker use of a "company" vehicle.

Again, you are either trying to (badly) deflect or show that you need to read up on Freud. That is, you are the off the mark and ridiculous. If non-habitual residence and the benefiots this brings is off the mark, then this forum is for people who lie down and accept what is dished out to them by every pion civil servant in Portugal. Else, you are arguing for the sake of being right, not for the sake of truth / providing good advice.

Again, if you are primarily resident in Portugal but have a registered self-employed business in Spain, you are able to buy a car and maintain the registration thereof in Spain; those are your EC Regulation (legal) rights, period, despite what canoeman argues.


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## canoeman

Travlur said:


> :lalala:
> 
> Have you applied for Non-Habitual Residency? Have you had legal (tax law) advice on the subject? I doubt it, and I doubt anyone you know has, despite the fact I am sure you will claim you have / do.
> 
> Again, if you are primarily resident in Portugal but have a registered self-employed business in Spain, you are able to buy a car and maintain the registration thereof in Spain; those are your EC Regulation (legal) rights, period, despite what canoeman argues.


No because I didn't qualify by 1 year, have you? re Spain, is exactly what I said if Spanish law allows but that doesn't mean you can legally keep it or drive it in Portugal a big difference


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> No because I didn't qualify by 1 year, have you?


More fool you. The conditions are not as strict as some (portuguese tax lawyer) sites make out (though in fairness, some are spot on). Also, you can apply and hope that they do not respond in time. It is called "tacit approval", legal speak "quem cala , consente"

And yes I did, thank you.


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> re Spain, is exactly what I said if Spanish law allows but that doesn't mean you can legally keep it or drive it in Portugal a big difference


:boink:

OMG. So, canoeman, self-employed cross border workers should buy and register one car in Spain (to comply with Spanish law) and another in Portugal (to comply with Portuguese law) and walk across the border?

Duh! Yes it does. You have the EC Regulation legal right to freedom of movement and not to be disadvantaged. To quote your own text back right at you; Your postings are really so far off the mark, to be ridiculous.


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## RichardHenshall

Travelur, a couple of questions:

Are you able to register as self-employed in Spain if you aren't resident there (I don't mean tax-resident)?

Are you able to operate the same self-employment in Portugal, without registering the activity with the Portuguese tax authorities?


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## 229926

RichardHenshall said:


> Travelur, a couple of questions:
> 
> Are you able to register as self-employed in Spain if you aren't resident there (I don't mean tax-resident)?
> 
> Are you able to operate the same self-employment in Portugal, without registering the activity with the Portuguese tax authorities?


1) You are, but the cost of being a resident (renting a one bedroom apartment and registering this as your business address) is low, and you get much more in benefits.

2) Yes, apart from the fact I would disaude anyone from operating a business in Portugal due to the problems with civil servants there). But you have the right to choose where you base your business.

3) BTW Article 23 Directive 2004/38 allows you to work as a "home worker" in Portugal for your Spanish business.


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## RichardHenshall

Travlur said:


> 1) You are, but the cost of being a resident (renting a one bedroom apartment and registering this as your business address) is low, and you get much more in benefits.
> 
> 2) Yes, apart from the fact I would disaude anyone from operating a business in Portugal due to the problems with civil servants there). But you have the right to choose where you base your business.
> 
> 3) BTW Article 23 Directive 2004/38 allows you to work as a "home worker" in Portugal for your Spanish business.


So, if I understand you correctly you _could_, say, be resident in Portugal and operate as a registered self-employed person in Spain but you are choosing (to pretend) to be a Spanish resident, as far as the Spanish authorities are concerned because of the advantages to you? For your business (in Spain only) you are then using a Spanish registered vehicle? If that vehicle is used in Portugal it is used privately in your capacity as a visitor from Spain?


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## 229926

RichardHenshall said:


> So, if I understand you correctly you _could_, say, be resident in Portugal and operate as a registered self-employed person in Spain but you are choosing (to pretend) to be a Spanish resident, as far as the Spanish authorities are concerned because of the advantages to you? For your business (in Spain only) you are then using a Spanish registered vehicle? If that vehicle is used in Portugal it is used privately in your capacity as a visitor from Spain?


For the most part.
The issue comes if you have a residence in Portugal, or anything else potentially making you tax resident / primarily resident in Portugal.

Accountants generally will only advise you the bean counting stuff. The official line. Nothing too risqué. But you can play the game.

You have to be careful, as there is a difference between
1) Doing something accidentally / just by the way of life which consequences make your fiscal status less certain to the authorities
2) Doing such things deliberately, in order to achieve this end 
Tax avoidance V tax evasion

But there are plenty of games. For example. Spain is one hour ahead of Portugal. The ultimate method of determining which day you speant where is called the "Midnight Rule" (you were resident in the country where you were local time midnight).

So, if I drive over the border between Portugal and Spain at 23:55 Portuguese time, (arriving 00:55 Spanish time) in Spain, have a coffee and then come back 10 minutes later, I wasn't resident in either at midnight, was I?

So, perhaps, you surrender your Portuguese residency (keeping your Spanish residency) yet, accidentally stay more days in Portugal than Spain. That is a headache for anyone to prove, and the Portuguese residency rules regarding use of cars are not as definitive as those for tax residency, so there is felxibility there in relation to what rules exist for your immediate family. As a Spanish resident you can drive your Spanish car for up to 183 per year in Portugal without having to register. If you want to declare use in Portugal for longer, OK, so apply for a guía de circulación.

Personally, I might choose to write an ambiguous letter to the Portuguese authorities (in case you do not know whether you will spend more than 183 days on Portuguese roads) but conclude that you do not need a guía de circulación and ask them to advise; give them 20 working days to reply or they tacitly agree with your conclusions.


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## BaguetteMan

Just read through this thread. That there Spain/Portugal border sure does sound like a dangerous place. I'd probably wear a bullet-proof jacket in case I was caught in the cross-fire ...


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## coati

Is that the line where the weeds get taller?


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## IanW

Nope - Canoeman stands on guard there with his oar


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> No because I didn't qualify by 1 year,


I missed this. Do you mean you arrived in Portugal in 2008? It does not matter. The rules are for you not have been tax resident in Portugal for the last 5 years. Have you paid taxes in Portugal in the last 5 years? If not, you may well be able to swing it, especially if you have some form of residency already, as then the application for non-habitual resident status becomes a fiscal, not an immigration matter, and fiscal matters are strictly govered, for example, there is a 60 day time limit by which the tax authority can be deemed to have tacitly accepted (whatever) if they do not respond within 60 (caveat: Portuguese working) days.

You need to read the tax legislation of 2009 carefully, especially as to what category of worker / businessman / investor you could fit under. Choose which web sites you get the info from carefully, as, IMHO, Portuguese tax lawyers are full of waffle and do not always give the best advice.

Be warned, they will ask you for proof of tax residency overseas, which you should ignore if they are past the 60 day limit, replying solely that you have been tacitly accepted for the visa under the 60 day rule. Even if the response is within 60 working days, you can still qualify by arguing that the Portuguese tax authority do not have jurisdiction over other country's tax affairs (if, for example, you can demonstrate you need not have tax returns for other countries because you moved from country to copuntry and never stayed long enough in any to be legally required to either register for residency or for tax). They can then get you if you you own your own home in Portugal, but even then you can argue this (I am separated from my wife who lives there, we are selling that home, it was not habital on the 31st December of xx tax year, and so on). To understand all this, you need to read the tax law of 2009 in full, plus tax residency rules.

They can ultimately make a determination, but if you are a difficult case, they probably will just stamp you "Non-habitual resident" to save themselves the effort. If they make the effort, you are either stinking rich or have made an enemy; do not be cocky with the officials.

I give advice personally and not as a professional; you need to appoint a legal representitve to give you definitive advice.


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## canoeman

No I'd filed tax returns within the previous 5 years, quite familiar with it, yes it would have been beneficial but what I've found is and from others that unless you apply via Lisbon and use a major accountancy firm then you have zero success with any local application and the balance is the cost of that advice and application versus any possible tax savings.


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> No I'd filed tax returns within the previous 5 years, quite familiar with it, yes it would have been beneficial but what I've found is and from others that unless you apply via Lisbon and use a major accountancy firm then you have zero success with any local application and the balance is the cost of that advice and application versus any possible tax savings.


It does not matter if the success rate is zero percent. If the tax authority refuse your personally made application, if they originally did not respond within 60 working days, you have the law on your side. Now, it may not help you, but if you are not paying taxes in Portugal anyway for whatever reason, you thereby have lawful justification, if they come to you on the basis of not declaring taxes, for saying "I was tacitly approved as a non-habitual residence and then they tried to revoke this by ignoring the 60 day rule. I can not afford a lawyer (they will not know if you can or can not if you have not filed taxes) and so could not challenge it. I have not filed taxes because it would have inappropriate / unfair and I could not afford a tax lawyer. If you think that I am wrong (if you want to investigate or even prosecute me), I can not afford a lawyer, so please appoint one for me."

The Portuguese do NOT like foreigners claiming Legal Aid, and in truth, there are very few Portuguese lawyers that accept Legal Aid. So, if they are faced with a fight, which they have to appoint a lawyer for on your behalf, if you verbally made a convincing case that you are not worth the effort and have a legitimate defence, they are very, very unlikely to pursue you.

Again / anyway, if I were you, I would send an application in personally. If you never ask, you never get.


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## 229926

Advice: Apply to the local tax office by email first. If they do not tell you what evidence / proof you need to submit with the application (if they solely tell you to apply to XXXX in Lisbon), send a copy of that with a nice generic "I apply" letter to Lisbon, as you have therefore been advised by the tax office and if they did not specify what you needed to include, they can not invalidate your application subsequently because you did not use the right form and / or submit the right evidence.


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## canoeman

Sorry but my experiences with local offices is not that bad, but then I don't expect them to be totally up to date with all aspects that would rarely be "normal" business for them, when I have queried or pointed out aspects that have changed it might have taken a bit of "standing my ground" but find that providing I'm polite with them they will check and will follow through.

So if I'm referred to a Lisbon department that handles a specific area fine as it's easy dealing with the correct department


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## 229926

canoeman said:


> Sorry but my experiences with local offices is not that bad, but then I don't expect them to be totally up to date with all aspects that would rarely be "normal" business for them, when I have queried or pointed out aspects that have changed it might have taken a bit of "standing my ground" but find that providing I'm polite with them they will check and will follow through.
> 
> So if I'm referred to a Lisbon department that handles a specific area fine as it's easy dealing with the correct department


I think you missed the point.

I simply suggested applying first to your local tax office by email (more likely to get a less formal though still legally usable reply) to see if they fail to advise how EXACTLY to apply. If they simply say "Apply to XXX Lisbon", you are part of the way to claiming tacit approval. Then generically apply in a letter to XXX Lisbon "I apply for non-Habitual residency", enclosing a copy of the reply email from the local tax office. If the main tax authority in Lisbon then do not respond within 60 working days, claim tacit approval.


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## 229926

PS Remember where you are, in bean counter land. Procedural law is everything to them. The tribunals are paved / littered with failed processes because they did not tick all the boxes.

If you do this, and they fail to respond within 60 working days, in your case where you presumably have a business in Portugal and therefore have to submit tax returns, I would then appoint a nice inexpensive administrative law advogado (bean counter) to sue the tax authority if they refuse to issue you a non-habitual residency on the 60 day tacit approval basis (which they will refuse to do). You no longer requiring an expensive blah-blah expense account tax lawyer.


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## siobhanwf

Travlur said:


> You must be married to him.



Canoeman is not infallible but he is ALWAYS right


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## 229926

siobhanwf said:


> Canoeman is not infallible but he is ALWAYS right


Sorry, then he must be God. I thought my research, legal advice received from the EC and actually driving a non-Portuguese registered in car in Portugal made me right.

:car:


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## Janina k

Hello

You said that got your legal advice from the EC ut did you not think to research the advice you needed in Portugal. 

Portugal do what they want not what the EU say and the situation won't change any time soon.

Yes Canoeman is always right and thank God there is a Canoeman.

Krystyna


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## 229926

Janina k said:


> Hello
> 
> You said that got your legal advice from the EC ut did you not think to research the advice you needed in Portugal.
> 
> Portugal do what they want not what the EU say and the situation won't change any time soon.
> 
> Yes Canoeman is always right and thank God there is a Canoeman.
> 
> Krystyna


Well, I did also research the info in Portugal and your presumptive attitude shines right through with "you did not think". Though, what I find most odd about your response is that you say Portugal does not honour EU law (EC Regulations) as if that was the right thing for them to do! If you are a UKIP supporter, shouldn't you be back in the jolly old UK?

And Portugal does what the European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights say, they have no choice, period.

You are, in your defence, a typical British expat though; good reason to avoid expat areas, and very good reason not to take advice from you.


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## travelling-man

Travlur said:


> Well, I did also research the info in Portugal and your presumptive attitude shines right through with "you did not think". Though, what I find most odd about your response is that you say Portugal does not honour EU law (EC Regulations) as if that was the right thing for them to do! If you are a UKIP supporter, shouldn't you be back in the jolly old UK?
> 
> *And Portugal does what the European Court of Justice and European Court of Human Rights say, they have no choice, period.*
> 
> You are, in your defence, a typical British expat though; good reason to avoid expat areas, and very good reason not to take advice from you.


They don't you know....... and a very good example of that is car imports and especially classic car imports. 

The PT Govt have for some years preferred to charge the extra/illegal taxes and then pay the fines the EU levy because the fines are considerably less than the taxes etc.

But all that said, rather than try to start a barney, why not just do it your own way and face the consequences if you're ever caught out? :fencing:


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## siobhanwf

Travlur said:


> I thought my research, legal advice received from the EC and actually driving a non-Portuguese registered in car in Portugal made me right.
> 
> :car:



Sorry you are so misguided. Your advice is generally wrong and inticing people to flaunt the rules is bordering on the illegal. Further such posts will be infracted and removed. 
Paying more attention to the ACTUAL laws in Portugal might be more beneficial.


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## 229926

*Wrong*



siobhanwf said:


> Sorry you are so misguided. Your advice is generally wrong and inticing people to flaunt the rules is bordering on the illegal. Further such posts will be infracted and removed.
> Paying more attention to the ACTUAL laws in Portugal might be more beneficial.


\
There you go you see.
You, the moderator, are saying I must pay attention to the ACTUAL laws in Portugal. I am! Like it or not, EC Regulations are transcribed onto the Portuguese Statute as "ACTUAL" laws in Portugal.

My advice is not wrong; it is just that you do not like it. You do not ask me how and why, but attack, I presume because you are stuck with your location and situation in Portugal.

Instead of getting advice from me, someone that drives a Spanish registered car legally in Portugal (OK, there are some limitations), you tell me I am wrong, when you do not know.

Here are some facts; http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/taxes/index_en.htm

But they do not cover everything BECAUSE they are not allowed to incite people into lawfully flouting certain loop holes.

For example. You only need to be resident in Spain for 4 months to claim residency and thereby the right to personally drive your own Spanish registered vehicle anywhere in the EU. But, being resident in Spain for 4 months does not change the facts as to whether you are tax resident (this does not affect your car rights) and have your main property in Portugal.

I am not saying being resident in Spain is the only / ideal solution, but it is there.

Whereas I do get stopped from time to time by the Portuguese police, I do not ever get any issues with them.

So, how am I wrong? How am I inciting people to act illegally or even unlawfully?


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## 229926

PS You made find the EC advice contradictory, as in the advice for self-employed cross-border workers having to register the vehicle in their company name which, of course, is not possible as a sole-trader is a person doing business as whatever.


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## travelling-man

Travlur

You might consider taking a deep breath & relaxing a little because at the moment, you're peppering your posts with snide little digs & insults at people whilst trying to make your point & all you'll achieve is putting people's backs up & possibly get yourself banned in the process. - & that means no-one wins. 

Why not remain polite & try to explain your point logically instead?


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## 229926

travelling-man said:


> Travlur
> 
> You might consider taking a deep breath & relaxing a little because at the moment, you're peppering your posts with snide little digs & insults at people whilst trying to make your point & all you'll achieve is putting people's backs up & possibly get yourself banned in the process. - & that means no-one wins.
> 
> Why not remain polite & try to explain your point logically instead?


Sorry, I thought I had, and in full, including with a link to the EC EU citizen advice page on the subject.

PS Thanks, but I do not need to take a deep breath and relax. And as for the snide remarks, what about "you are so misguided" (remark not made by myself)

PPS I would like to start a post / thread entitled "Why to live on the Spanish border", but apparently I am not allowed to do this.


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## travelling-man

Travlur said:


> Sorry, I thought I had, and in full, including with a link to the EC EU citizen advice page on the subject.
> 
> PS Thanks, but I do not need to take a deep breath and relax. And as for the snide remarks, what about "you are so misguided" (remark not made by myself)
> 
> PPS I would like to start a post / thread entitled "Why to live on the Spanish border", *but apparently I am not allowed to do this.*


I'm not in the least surprised......... LOL!


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## 229926

travelling-man said:


> I'm not in the least surprised......... LOL!


The irony being I am doing this, benefitting hugely from the fact and yet, somehow, not allowed to pass on the reasons and benefits why. Does that speak more about me or less about the forum?


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## canoeman

You don't seem to realize that most Forum members are retired in one way or another, your solution only works for a Portuguese Resident self employed working in Spain or for a Spanish company and drives a Spanish vehicle as a *company car*, but when they cross the Spanish border into Portugal that car can only be used for *Private purposes* with the added complication of explaining to the GNR you're not breaking the Law.

Your "solution" in this instance is no good whatsoever to the original poster or anyone doing likewise because they legally cannot use that vehicle for any sort of monetary gain, unless they were Spanish Residents but then of course they'd need to declare earnings in Portugal and be taxed and also declare in Spain.

As you seem to be using the NHRS scheme to mitigate your tax then good luck to you, but it certainly shouldn't recommended a a "solution" whether it's beneficial or the right scheme is very much a matter of individual circumstances and really don't see it's relevance in this context what car you can legally drive in Portugal


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