# A change comeing?



## rino010 (Nov 28, 2010)

First, let me start off my saying that I am not South Africa, however, I am married to a South African, have visited several times, keep up regularly with the news there, and my wife and I are seriously contemplating moving there. Now to go on, does anyone think that ZA is on the verge of changeing? With the problems that the ANC is having and them not being able to deliver promises that were made 16 years ago do you believe that people are finally getting wind of this? People who work for my wifes' uncle (who lives in the WC and are coloured and black) say that they no longer support the ANC but are going to be voting for COPE or the DA based on whats going on in Cape Town. Along with that, the crazy Julies Malema really wants to nationalise the mines like in Zim (disaster!!). This isn't a rant or tyrade because I really to love ZA, this is just to see if anyone feels as though something is happening? Cause we've decided the first sign of change and when crime starts improving for our kids sake then we're moving to her native Mossel Bay (which is an amazing place ). Please comment and help give an inside opinion.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Rin, I dont think, no matter what Malema says, they are not going to nationalise the mines,
I also dont think SA is going to implode overnight or to have a bloody civil war.

Thats the good news.

when we were doing Black Rule Scenario's in the 80's all scenario's foresaw a stable democratic Country within 3 to 5 Generations if it was after a civil war and 2 to 3 Generations after a Peaceful Negotiated Settlement (which is what we had)

What made the difference between the two was that the staus quo would be maintained iro of services particularly education,, that there would be a massive education and re-education program because after the ANC's Liberation before education campaign starting in 1976 literacy rates collapsed.
Unfortunately, the opposite happened.
Education is the key, to a drop in crime, to an upskilling and replacement of talent and skills, and even if they did a massive drive right now, they have missed the boat.

37percent of SA's population of 49 million are in School and /or under 25 right now, 66percent are only functionally literate at best
even at 26 percent HIV rate thats a lot of orphans.

SA needs 3 times more Engineers,Accountants,Doctors, Scientists than it has right now, even if they bring in the vast amount of Expat Contract workers they are trying to for skills transfer, they dont have enough people to transfer to now, and not enough teachers to teach the current and next generation to a point where they are able to be have skills transfer to take place.

what does it mean?
There are not enough people in the Justice system to convict criminals, not enough engineers and architects and project managers and electricians and plumbers and..and... to build enough prisons to house the additional convicted, not enough maths and science teachers
not enough people getting educated to create entrepreuneurs (sp) to create new businesses to create employment... see the cycle?

meanwhile, why should someone work in my factory for R3000 a month if he can make that in an evening with the outlay of R200 for a hired Pistol with ammunition?
especially if he knows that the Justice system is so overloaded he has a 1/100 chance of being caught and if caught for murder, a 1/10 chance of being convicted.

Thats excluding any contacts he may have within the justice system who could make the file "lost"

Unfortunately, hi-jackings started because car immobilisers and alarms became so effective the only way to get a car was with keys, then Trackers became so good it became necessary to take the person with or make sure they were incapicitated.
Home invasions started for the same reasons,the better our security got....
Now its slowly spreading out to thesmaller/further towns.
Cape Town used to be too far.
its no longer.
Its nowhere near what Johannesburg is, but its no longer immune.

and thats why I cant see crime going down.
They dont have the system to catch, prosecute and lock criminals away.
They dont have the teachers to teach people so that they can get a job
They dont have the parents to teach that crime is wrong.
No matter what the Govr does, the un-educated will vote for the ANC, because they won the struggle.

and the State President left School in Std 3.


----------



## rino010 (Nov 28, 2010)

So basically what your saying is that the country is pretty much a lost cause? Thats kind of depressing, i kind of always thought it would pic up eventually but I guess not. So does this mea that more skilled people will be leaving the country or do you see them staying there?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

rino010 said:


> So basically what your saying is that the country is pretty much a lost cause? Thats kind of depressing, i kind of always thought it would pic up eventually but I guess not. So does this mea that more skilled people will be leaving the country or do you see them staying there?


There's a glass ceiling, its called Affirmative Action.
I understand why it was necessary to try and redress the inequities of the past.
and I agree with it when we are talking about poor young black people and education.
I dont however think that a kid who has passed a 4 year University graduate course is still disadvantaged.
neither is a Black kid who has spent his past 16 years in a Private School.

end of day, what needs to count is academic achievement.
not colour.

If you realise that your career path is limited, you will leave.


----------



## rino010 (Nov 28, 2010)

Daxk said:


> There's a glass ceiling, its called Affirmative Action.
> I understand why it was necessary to try and redress the inequities of the past.
> and I agree with it when we are talking about poor young black people and education.
> I dont however think that a kid who has passed a 4 year University graduate course is still disadvantaged.
> ...





That really blows. Hypothetically though, if we were to move would it be easy for me to get a job? I have a masters in hydrology/water resources managment?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Being married to a South African means you CAN work, contact Rand Water Board, I know they have huge problems right now.
(Google Toxic Mine Spillage South Africa)


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Change for the worse - Yes.......


----------



## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

rino010 said:


> First, let me start off my saying that I am not South Africa, however, I am married to a South African, have visited several times, keep up regularly with the news there, and my wife and I are seriously contemplating moving there. Now to go on, does anyone think that ZA is on the verge of changeing? With the problems that the ANC is having and them not being able to deliver promises that were made 16 years ago do you believe that people are finally getting wind of this? People who work for my wifes' uncle (who lives in the WC and are coloured and black) say that they no longer support the ANC but are going to be voting for COPE or the DA based on whats going on in Cape Town. Along with that, the crazy Julies Malema really wants to nationalise the mines like in Zim (disaster!!). This isn't a rant or tyrade because I really to love ZA, this is just to see if anyone feels as though something is happening? Cause we've decided the first sign of change and when crime starts improving for our kids sake then we're moving to her native Mossel Bay (which is an amazing place ). Please comment and help give an inside opinion.


Just give it a try.

I believe the whole world is getting sick. South Africa has Zuma, the USA has Obama, and Europe has the EU. 

The good news :
- Criminals in South Africa are prosecuted and not protected
- Compared to Namibia, the opposition is strong. The next municipal elections will be interesting

Daxk, could you confirm that the situation in Europe is tough, with Debt out of control, criminals protected, and jobs difficult to find ?


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Job's --> People in glass house and all....
Crime --> Do you actually have any statistics... Obviously not.
Debt --> May I bring your attention to the WC2010.

You're a fun chap... Worth a few lines.


----------



## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

arnaud said:


> Just give it a try.
> 
> 
> The good news :
> ...


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

arnaud said:


> Just give it a try.
> 
> I believe the whole world is getting sick. South Africa has Zuma, the USA has Obama, and Europe has the EU.
> 
> ...


Arnaud, I live in Ireland, the worst case as far as I know?
Criminals certainly aren't protected here, quite the opposite.
we are about to hold an election where the party that has been in power for about 16 years is definitely history.(problem is I dont think the opposition can do the job)
as to the recession, we have 14% unemployment, of which in SA terms 6% are Discouraged workseekers, they get paid a livable unemployment benefit for as long as it takes ,

last year Irish Families saved 12% of their disposable income (in a recession) in case it gets worse.

No-one has actually been kicked out of their homes, and there is still Coca cola in every fridge when Milk is cheaper as a cold drink?
go figure.

SA??

dont let me even begin...


----------



## Kkris (Dec 2, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Being married to a South African means you CAN work, contact Rand Water Board, I know they have huge problems right now.
> (Google Toxic Mine Spillage South Africa)


Hi Daxk, 

This is not relivant to this thread I appologise but can you answer any of the questions I have below?
I have posted the text below on the relivant thread to a guy who was in the same situation but have received no reply.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge of South Africa and any information would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.




Hi mate,

I have a few questions if I may. I seem to be in the exact same position that you were in. I am English and my girfriend is South African and getting information on this, is as you know a joke.
Can you tell me your status before you were married, were you over here just on the 90 days that they give us? I have been here for around a week now, giving me roughly 80 days left to get this sorted.
Can you please list for me exactly what documents that you had to provide, I have read the issues you had with the No impediment certificate, but A: What else did you require? (both parties) B:What fees were involved C: What is your status with regards to you living/working here, length? any restrictions?
My girfriend and I plan to live here, neither of us have any intrest in returning to England, so it is literally information on what I have to do and what I will be then entitled to do.
We can only realisticly prove the relationship for 2 years, is this enough or even relavent?
I realise that you have answered some of these querys already but if you could take the time to give me it from the top, starting with arranging the marriage I would be very grateful, as continuity on this whole issue is what I am very much lacking.

Regards,

Chris


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Chris, I actually have no idea, you might want to google British Expats marry South African as you dont have enough posts on here for me to send you a pm.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

@rino010 - moving to another country is such a personal decision and I dont believe there is a right or wrong. My husband and I are both South African (still living here) both of us quite content to stay until we had our 2 boys. Since then (you can call it paranoia) I am so much more worried about high jackings and burglaries. How would I get to my children, keep them safe, get them out the car etc Especially since the crime is not made up - people highjacked last week round the corner from me, cousins held up in their home at gun point, i have been subjected to a smash and grab, my response to all these things and everyone else's is that you are happy to be alive. Shows how used to the crime we have got.
Ontop of that you have the mismanagement of the country, the inefficiency of all government departments and the biggest one is the decline in education.
The other issue for me is Affirmative Action - am I still giving my children the best oppportunity when now there is even a BEE policy for certain Universtity Degrees.
As I said earlier it is a very personal decision and we have plenty of people saying how can you run away etc But for us it is about what we believe will be the best for our childrens future.
Of course there are plenty of positives and so much that I love and will miss.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

You'll forget the place in a heartbeat if you embrace your new country..... The past is the past - Move on and enjoy.


----------



## OfftoFrance (Dec 30, 2010)

*No change*



rino010 said:


> First, let me start off my saying that I am not South Africa, however, I am married to a South African, have visited several times, keep up regularly with the news there, and my wife and I are seriously contemplating moving there. Now to go on, does anyone think that ZA is on the verge of changeing? With the problems that the ANC is having and them not being able to deliver promises that were made 16 years ago do you believe that people are finally getting wind of this? People who work for my wifes' uncle (who lives in the WC and are coloured and black) say that they no longer support the ANC but are going to be voting for COPE or the DA based on whats going on in Cape Town. Along with that, the crazy Julies Malema really wants to nationalise the mines like in Zim (disaster!!). This isn't a rant or tyrade because I really to love ZA, this is just to see if anyone feels as though something is happening? Cause we've decided the first sign of change and when crime starts improving for our kids sake then we're moving to her native Mossel Bay (which is an amazing place ). Please comment and help give an inside opinion.


I love SA, still live here, but will be moving to France when I can. Reason - government is not changing, the corruption at all levels is very scary. How long can we sustain with so much coruption. Please read Noseweek magazine, you can get it online, very interesting! There is not a strong opposition, COPE is virtually gone, sadly. Sorry, wish I could say come....... if you had lots of money, out of the country and could leave at any time, then maybe, but long term, nope!


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Sorry Joaschim, I certainly don't think a holiday gives you an accurate view of a place at all. Firstly you are in a holiday spirit, secondly living and working in a place and dealing with the politics etc of country is very different to going there on holiday.
I agree that you will get extremes on this forums. And the truth lies somewhere in between. So I think if someone is wanting to come here list the pros and cons, see what the "extreme" views are and see if you could live with those issues. You cant ignore some of the facts as in the crime stats.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Halo could not agree more and that is what we plan to do when we make the move.


----------



## Guest (Dec 30, 2010)

Hi

I agree with you. Which is why I refrained from the word "holiday" 

It would be more a fact-finding mission.

Of course actually living here will provide a better feeling for the place, however to make a decision on where to live based purely on a list of pros and cons I feel is not wise. "Test-drive a car before you buy it", "go on a date before deciding to marry someone". Similar principle applies here I think. Have a look for yourself, come visit more than once if necessary, and then of course also hear what others say.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Joaschim, I agree that there are many many people who live happily and without fear in SA.
and that moving there or living there is not a guarnteed invitation to experience violent crime.

As someone put it,48 million 950 odd thousand people did NOT get murdered yesterday.

Unfortunately,a lot of people who have lived there for a lot longer than you also look at the Country from a different perspective.
that of their children.
And from that perspective SA does not have a lot to offer.

and thats why people need to hear both sides.

I am glad that young people without children are moving to SA, the Country desperately needs skills.
And I am also aware that a large number of those with children who have returned are doubting their decision when it gets past the 1st year "Honeymoon" phase.

Obviously you do have a vested interest but too doubt SA has a future for my daughter.


----------



## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

Joaschim said:


> Hi all
> 
> It is depressing to read most of these posts. I work in the immigration business, and I can tell you that there are a great number of people still coming to South Africa to start new lives or to resume these with their South African partners.
> 
> ...


Could you tell us if there are more people coming to SA to start a new life than 2 or 3 years ago ?
Also, from which part of the world are they from ? I read that 20,000 people from UK settle in SA each year. Could you confirm it ?

Thanks


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

V.Possible - They are economic migrants who normally retire to secure complexes where their pound can see them through their twilight years - Its not rock science.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

rino010 said:


> First, let me start off my saying that I am not South Africa, however, I am married to a South African, have visited several times, keep up regularly with the news there, and my wife and I are seriously contemplating moving there. Now to go on, does anyone think that ZA is on the verge of changeing? With the problems that the ANC is having and them not being able to deliver promises that were made 16 years ago do you believe that people are finally getting wind of this? People who work for my wifes' uncle (who lives in the WC and are coloured and black) say that they no longer support the ANC but are going to be voting for COPE or the DA based on whats going on in Cape Town. Along with that, the crazy Julies Malema really wants to nationalise the mines like in Zim (disaster!!). This isn't a rant or tyrade because I really to love ZA, this is just to see if anyone feels as though something is happening? Cause we've decided the first sign of change and when crime starts improving for our kids sake then we're moving to her native Mossel Bay (which is an amazing place ). Please comment and help give an inside opinion.


For years and years the far right have been crying wolf to the point that you'd be an idiot to read anything they write/announce with anything but a pinch of salt the size of Siberia. There are some idiots on both sides of the spectrum who make noise, but untimately you really only read about them because they represent a lampoonish image both "groups" have of each other and it makes for sensational media. By far the most popular perspective anyone has of South Africa is that they just want to get along and see their prospects improve.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> Hi all
> 
> It is depressing to read most of these posts. I work in the immigration business, and I can tell you that there are a great number of people still coming to South Africa to start new lives or to resume these with their South African partners.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. I am sure you can confirm people that have gone and just moved here from the U.K consider that S.A is the third best place in the world to retire in.

The best countries to retire to - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Finance

If you ask me the internet is extremely biased towards the neurotic extreme when discussing South Africa. There are so many other issues that people are projecting onto forums like this such as racism and apartheid nostalgia that are thinly veiled as "critiques" of South Africa. Crime is just one extremely convenient one for them to use. Nothing clouds the judgements more that using fear and alarmism after all. The truth about South Africa and it's current state of affairs is really far more balanced. Especially for the middle classes who are highly unlikely to experience violent crime.

A personal example. My one "Coloured" employee has had two family members murdered in the last month. Both were murdered by their own family members with knives after a drunken quarel. Ask any policeman. This describes the vast majority of violent crime in South Africa that makes up the majority of our high murder rate. There are deep social issues in certain groups in South Africa , but you're really not likely to have anything to do with them unless you want to. That's just a fact. You won't live in the same areas, mix in the same circles or drink in the same taverns. That's just something called reality. And those lines aren't based on race they're based on class and education.


If you're thinking masked men attacking you with guns at home or in your car etc, that makes up 500 of our murders a year according to the cops. Of course even 1 murder is too high but just something worth thinking about.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Posting removed as it is offensive and racist


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Tristan may I ask why you are living in Thailand?
In South African for the 2007/2008 financial year these are the stats according to the SAPS website and as per their documention are only for the crimes that were actually reported. 
18,487 murders
36,190 (only april - december) rapes
18,975 attempted murders
210,104 assault with the intent to inflict grievous bodily harm
3,104 Neglect and ill-treatment of children 
Lets look at this slightly differently
Every hour
2 people are murdered
2 people have almost been murdered
23 people have been assaulted with the intent to inflict grievous bodily harm
5 people are raped
13.5 people are robbed with aggravating circumstances
22 people suffer a common assault
1 person is indecently assaulted
Every hour 68.5 people are the victims of violent crime in South Africa at least. You cannot tell me that is just due to violence by family members, especially as you seem to only be taking murders into account.
It is not just about murder but attempted murder, rape and child abuse. Which you do not seem to care about at all. To say it does not affect white middle class, not sure what you base that theory on.
I would consider myself white middle class and I know plenty of people (lets actually take the colour out of it and just say middle class) who have been subject to violent crime.
But in saying that South Africa is an amazing country with plenty of positives.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Siouxzee said:


> Tristan may I ask why you are living in Thailand?


South Africa is too sleepy and quaint for me. I actually live in South Africa for half of the year when I need a relax from all the chaos. 





> In South African for the 2007/2008 financial year these are the stats according to the SAPS website and as per their documention are only for the crimes that were actually reported.
> 18,487 murders
> 36,190 (only april - december) rapes
> 18,975 attempted murders
> ...



Firstly this is the year 2011. Secondly your maths is rubbish. Multiple hours * days * 65 and you get 596 000 violent crimes a year. Where did you pull that from ? Thirdly I'm not interested in your anecdotal stories which can easily be manufactured and often in my experience are. I once met a person online who claimed he knew 17 "friends" who were murdered. I did the maths. 1 in 3000 people are murdered a year (assuming we all share the same risk, which we don't.) 

Just to have a statistical chance of being possible the guy would need to have 50 000 friends. 7000 more than the words of the entire French language. 45 000 more than words than an intelligent person statistically know in English. 48 500 more than most people know. I wonder how he remembered their names ? Why not write down your list of just people you know. You will struggle to make 200 before you are naming people you met on a holiday for a drink once, I bet you. The moral of the story ? Just to know 2 people who are murdered and be of "average luck" you would need to know 6000 people. For them both to be in your family in seperate incidents ? Extremely unlilkely ! Some people just speak bollocks. 

Now, the latest stats show the murder rate is 16 800. Stop ignoring the best available data because it is inconvenient to you. That's called a "confirmation bias".

I won't even get into rape. There is a real culture of promiscuity which goes hand in handing with the drinking cullture of the lower classes of this country and the lines between rape in the way westerners see it and what actually happens are far too burry. Away from police stats, people like Rachel Jewkes who heads up the group responsible for these rape statistics defines"Having sex with someone after drinking alcohol" as rape as well as having sex under the age of 18. So really the numbers of actual "real rapes" is impossible to determine. I understand she wants to make rape numbers sound as alarming as possible to get funding and attention to her cause but it's come at the expense of credibility. 

Now don't confuse what I'm saying as apologistic at all. South Africa has a high crime rate. But it really isn't experience on an exceptionally high level by upper and middle classed South Africans, especially white South Africans. And this person, deserves that information. 


It's simply not true that crime affects all South Africans equally. Every study ever understaken confirms this fact. It's represented in the old adage. For example South Africa gets 10 million tourists every year. How many are murdered ? Little to none. In a bad year you might hear of 1 or 2. But if it was true that everyone had an equal chance of being murdered then surely 3400 tourists would get murdered a year? (34 per 100 000). This is just silly and you would do well to admit that of course violent crime is pretty much a problem that poor black and coloured men pretty much experience and cause upon each other.

As the old saying goes.

"Go to South Africa ? Sure. Just avoid certain areas and situations."

And what these situations are is not rocket science. Most places are perfectly safe to go to, day or night. 

You throwing these numbers around is an attempt to appeal to peoples fears and more so to do it by painting everyones situation with a very wide brush. You know that up until 1990 they never recorded black and coloured murder rates ? And that in 1994 when they started to record crimes there were over 24000 murders a year despite there being 10 million less people ? So your implcation that violent crime has esculated is also pure bull. Stop wasting peoples time and try provide things in an intelligent context rich manner.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Sorry Tristan I disagree. Not throwing figures (why do you try and get so aggressive) around the SAPs website does not offer stats for the current years that I could find and I feel that they would be the most qualified to give us accurate stats.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Siouxzee said:


> Sorry Tristan I disagree. Not throwing figures (why do you try and get so aggressive) around the SAPs website does not offer stats for the current years that I could find and I feel that they would be the most qualified to give us accurate stats.


Not aggresive. Cold and factual. But the tone was maybe lost over the internet so I apologise if you feel I am being agro.

The S.A.P.S does give stats. And despite common myth it would be extremely difficult and near impossible for anyone to fake murder stats even if they wanted to. There are death certificates and stats done by hospitals, insurance companies, various police bodies, courts etc. Beyond that every police station has it's own stats which are presented on the S.A.P.S website most report 1 -2 murders a year. If they were lying about numbers there would be millions of whisleblowers else they are all in the conspiracy. All 150 000 cops, 1000's of doctors who issue death certificates, statisticians etc.


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

A request please...

Let us not go the way TheRooster did with his/her postings.

Crime rate in SA is very high but as Tristan17 has pointed out, more in certain areas than in others ... I personally would not enter specific areas by day or night!


Thanks for staying civil to each other Siouxzee and Tristan17.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Completely agree, hence why I got the stats I showed from the SAPs website last year - apologies if that was not clear! Never did I say they made them up in. I went again today to check for any updated stats for more recent years but the link was not working - giving me a page not found error. Have just checked again and here are the updated stats. All I am saying is I am basing my info on valid information, not stories, opinion or heresay
April 2009 - Mar 2010
Murder - 16 834 (per 100 000 34.1)
Attempted Murder - 17,410
Total Sexual Offences - 68,332
Burglary in Residential Areas (now I would say that is reported more in Middle Class Suburbs) - 256,577
Robbery with aggravating circumstances - 113,755
Carjacking - 13,902 (are you saying this also only occurs in so called "poor" or "bad" areas)

This is just a snippet of all the categories, full list is on the SAPs website
On the plus crime has decreased compared to previous years.

We should just agree to disagree


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Siouxzee said:


> Completely agree, hence why I got the stats I showed from the SAPs website last year - apologies if that was not clear! Never did I say they made them up in. I went again today to check for any updated stats for more recent years but the link was not working - giving me a page not found error. Have just checked again and here are the updated stats. All I am saying is I am basing my info on valid information, not stories, opinion or heresay
> April 2009 - Mar 2010
> Murder - 16 834 (per 100 000 34.1)
> Attempted Murder - 17,410
> ...


Agreed. 

Just to be clear we are agreeing on the stats. I suppose we're disagreeing on my claim (with heaps of evidence to back it up) that crime affects middle classed people , especially whites and more so white females, far less than other groups ? Why in the face of so much evidence would you disagree ? 

With the murder rate of white females as low as 2.5ish per 100 000 and males at a maximum of 13 per 100 000 will you be willing to admit that soemone wishing to relocate to South Africa would be fairly advised that crime, for white people, is not really as big an issue as people make it out to be ? And let me clarify. I'm suggesting compared to oher methods of death (cancer, car crashes etc) that moving to South Africa probably increases your chances of dying a tiny, near insignificant percentile if you're a white person and hence should almost not be considered a major factor. The affects of which could be nutreulised just by drinking Rooibos tea ?

(I'll explain that last part if you don't get it. Basically the short version is move to South Africa and drink rooibos tea, and your chance of living longer is far higher than if you stayed in the U.K and didn't.)


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Before I come across like I'm trying to shrug off South Africa's crime problems I'm not. I'm just trying to give things a bit of perspective and context. South Africas crime problems do exist and it makes it no better that it's poor disfunctional people who bear the brunt. But it just might be important to you who wishes to travel here to get a richer perspective on what exactly these perspectives mean. And Mother Theresa aside I don't think the average person would care as much to learn it's not likely to be them who is part of the statistics. Well they hopefully might care about the terrible statistics some groups live with and maybe even help be part of the solution, but they wouldn't scare themselves away from coming out and enjoying what the country has to offer.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Tristan17 said:


> Before I come across like I'm trying to shrug off South Africa's crime problems I'm not. I'm just trying to give things a bit of perspective and context. South Africas crime problems do exist and it makes it no better that it's poor disfunctional people who bear the brunt. But it just might be important to you who wishes to travel here to get a richer perspective on what exactly these perspectives mean. And Mother Theresa aside I don't think the average person would care as much to learn it's not likely to be them who is part of the statistics. Well they hopefully might care about the terrible statistics some groups live with and maybe even help be part of the solution, but they wouldn't scare themselves away from coming out and enjoying what the country has to offer.


agree absolutely!I think they should go out and enjoy what the Country has to offer.
I also think they should do some skills transfer and leave the place and its people better off than before!

but,unfortunately,there are predators everywhere in the world.
who will take advantage of opportunities presented.

is it better to tell people to be careful, that sh!t happens everywhere, or to negate 

very real experiences by saying it will only happen if you go to poor areas at night?


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Daxk said:


> agree absolutely!I think they should go out and enjoy what the Country has to offer.
> I also think they should do some skills transfer and leave the place and its people better off than before!
> 
> but,unfortunately,there are predators everywhere in the world.
> ...


Nobody is saying that. No where in the world is any one guaranteed not having a bad experience. I think we can credit people with being aware that South Africa is no Utopia. It's also no war zone but sadly that the one sided impression often given.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Tristan17 said:


> Nobody is saying that. No where in the world is any one guaranteed not having a bad experience. I think we can credit people with being aware that South Africa is no Utopia. It's also no war zone but sadly that the one sided impression often given.


but it happens more frequently than in the hometowns of the readers of BB's such as this....and assuming that you can do in Africa or SA as you would do "at Home" can make you a headline.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Daxk said:


> but it happens more frequently than in the hometowns of the readers of BB's such as this....and assuming that you can do in Africa or SA as you would do "at Home" can make you a headline.


Not this old humbug about South Africans don't leave the house is it ?

I think compared to the U.K South Africans spend more time outside fishing , playing sport, cycling, hiking etc than people in the U.K. But that's mostly weather related. I also suggest we spend more time in pubs and restuarants compred to the U.K. But that's culture and price related. I can't think of a single place I feel I can't go. I can think of a lot of places I don't want to go, but then why would I need or want to go there ?


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Tristan17 said:


> Not this old humbug about South Africans don't leave the house is it ?
> 
> I think compared to the U.K South Africans spend more time outside fishing , playing sport, cycling, hiking etc than people in the U.K. But that's mostly weather related. I also suggest we spend more time in pubs and restuarants compred to the U.K. But that's culture and price related. I can't think of a single place I feel I can't go. I can think of a lot of places I don't want to go, but then why would I need or want to go there ?


Once again - Anecdotal.

Please tell me why then some of my family members circle the block when coming home at night..... Electric gates + Alarm with security patrols riding the roads...... This is Cape Town 2011 in good Area's. (nice way to live)
Try taking your missus to a quiet beach in Cape Town at night to have a BBQ....... It just does not happen anymore.

As the advert says "catch a wake-up"


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Halo said:


> Once again - Anecdotal.
> 
> Please tell me why then some of my family members circle the block when coming home at night..... Electric gates + Alarm with security patrols riding the roads...... This is Cape Town 2011 in good Area's. (nice way to live)
> Try taking your missus to a quiet beach in Cape Town at night to have a BBQ....... It just does not happen anymore.
> ...


Firstly, to quote you..your version of events is...

Once again - Enecdotal.

Secondly you're speaking absolute tripe. Sorry but I just can't describe that any other way. You're just making things up as you go. People do braai on the beaches all the freaking time. And circle the drive way to their house ? I would honestly consider anyone who did that to be neurotic to the point of being mentally ill. 

Lastly, notice your use of "anymore" ..remember I told you arguing about "crime" to South Africans is an argument about "then and now", or in other words "Apartheid and post Apartheid" or "white rule and black rule".

The real debate going on here is he's passively aggressively claimed that because South Africa has high crime is is the fault of now having a black government. This is actually the entire premise of why many of these types is "concerned" with crime. He seems to imply that once upon a time when whites rules South Africa was first world utopia with no crime, where the streets were paved with gold etc etc and that everyone was happy etc. Or to put it another way giving blacks the same rights as whites was a mistake.

Which is rubbish. Since blacks have taken over and people have had human rights there violent crime has reduced massively. 50% since 1994 decrease in murder. the economy has grown. 80% of people have electricity in their homes compared to 30% in 1994. Millions have houses built by the government, access to free medical care in hospitals and clinics etc. So my position is that the sky hasn't fallen and just like when whites ruled this country it's a perfectly good place to live (for the middle classes).

Believe it or not the position that "South Africa is now a hell hole" is seldom anything more than nostalgia for Apartheid. A purely emotional argument that feigns concerns over crime etc, howeverT the facts simple do not support it.


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Tristan17 said:


> Firstly, to quote you..your version of events is...
> 
> Once again - Enecdotal.
> 
> ...


Tristan17... you are treading on thin ice now. Many of *your* statements are anecdotal and certainly incorrect. Anecdotal ( or enecdotal... as you seem to think...)
Your postings reek of racism, assumption, etc.


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Johanna said:


> Tristan17... you are treading on thin ice now. Many of *your* statements are anecdotal and certainly incorrect. Anecdotal ( or enecdotal... as you seem to think...)
> Your postings reek of racism, assumption, etc.



I was quoting what he said.

Certainly incorrect ? Based on what ? You clearly don't know anything about the issue. I have been researching it for years. Look stop being a bully mod and harassaing the most important people on a forum, the members who participate. This is not your little playground to get your little power trip and I don't feel like arguing with someone cleraly biast and derailing the debate we are having. You reek of agenda yourself and I've shown no interest in talking to you, yet you keep taking jibes at me. 

I consider you calling me a racist a personal attack by the way. I'll be reporting you if you do it again. 

By the way I'm white.


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Tristan17 said:


> I was quoting what he said.
> 
> Certainly incorrect ? Based on what ? You clearly don't know anything about the issue. I have been researching it for years. Look stop being a bully mod and harassaing the most important people on a forum, the members who participate. This is not your little playground to get your little power trip and I don't feel like arguing with someone cleraly biast and derailing the debate we are having. You reek of agenda yourself and I've shown no interest in talking to you, yet you keep taking jibes at me.
> 
> ...


When did I call you a racist?

And btw, I am not on a power trip... 

I reek of agenda?


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Jo Jo and Johanna consider yourselves ignored. Until you have a legitimate gripe of a tangible example of where I have broken any forum rules, then please quite the blatant baseless abuse of your mod powers.

You realise the extent of the how out of touch with reality and incredibly one sided a forum must be that just saying "The country is not a hell hole" is treated like a taboo statment of assive controversy don't you ? So much so they powers that be want you banned with your "crazy new ideas."






???????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

Well since I started posting here the two of you have been going on about how I'm stirring the pot. Yet what is it I am saying that is so controversial that people are getting worked up ? Everything I have said I've backed up. And what's more none of it is controversial, it's just being treated as so. Enough. 

Ignored.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tristan17 said:


> Well since I started posting here the two of you have been going on about how I'm stirring the pot. Yet what is it I am saying that is so controversial that people are getting worked up ? Everything I have said I've backed up. And what's more none of it is controversial, it's just being treated as so. Enough.
> 
> Ignored.


Its not what you say, its the arrogant and offensive way you say it. You listen to no one and you appear to have no respect for anyone else's viewpoints or opinions, you either ignore or belittle anything you dont want to hear. Its not helping your cause, in fact I'd go as far as to say that there are people who probably agree with you, but will not be bullied into showing it - not very helpful is it. Thats all. We normally dont allow discussions on the open forum re the moderation on here, so I'll say no more

Jo


----------



## Tristan17 (Jan 19, 2011)

jojo said:


> Its not what you say, its the arrogant and offensive way you say it. You listen to no one and you appear to have no respect for anyone else's viewpoints or opinions, you either ignore or belittle anything you dont want to hear. Its not helping your cause, in fact I'd go as far as to say that there are people who probably agree with you, but will not be bullied into showing it - not very helpful is it. Thats all. We normally dont allow discussions on the open forum re the moderation on here, so I'll say no more
> 
> Jo


I had a very developed understanding of the issue based on 3+ years of research and write about and debating nto the real state of affairs as well as the psyche and motives behind the perceptions. I may therefore find it easy to steam roll over peoples opinions, because I've dealt with the same faulty opiions a thousand times before. That's not arrogant or offensive, that's ruthless and effecient. It just maybe seems that way.

If it seems I don't respect certain people that's perhaps just coming across that way because the biggest critiques of me tend to be right winged fundamentalists and are the types I normally get into debates with. I've been hardened through debating them into forming an abrasive style. Don't read much into it. Sick to the content and you will see there is nothing "ugly" or "mean spirited" behind what I'm writing.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

Tristan - I really dont feel that you need to be so rude. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think it is great that when you spend your 6mths in South Africa, you do so in your home (that is not in a complex or gated community) with no burglar guards, no alarm system, gates on your doors and no perimeter fencing. Braaing on the bench at night. Walking from the train station to your house at night. Never stop to look around you when stopped at robots or stop streets in decent areas at night. - Before you say crime happens everywhere, just like you many of us have lived in other countries and you do not have all these security measures in place.
These are facts and it is not paranoia. 
People have been burnt and so now they choose to protect themselves. The reason crime is maybe not has hard hitting is because people have taken all these measures. In fact if there was no truth in this why are insurance companies premiums based on having all the above security measures, because they base their assessments on risk. I will agree there is also probably some measure of milking it as well.

You say you met some guy online who knew X amount of people who had been murdered, I agree I highly doubt his story BUT there is not a person I know who has either themselves been affected by a violent crime or know a close family member who has. This is not just murder, but being held up at gunpoint etc as well.
You also turn up you nose and mock everyone's stories as rubbish and heresay. Well your stories about your coloured employee - that is also just your version of the events or maybe something that is just made up to suit your argument.

Why are you turning this into a race issue nowhere has anyone said it is due to a black, white or for that matter pink government. It is what it is, because people are allowed to get away with it. Whether it be driving in the yellow line when there is a traffic jam or murdering someone. Maybe if we started focussing on the disobeying of the law in the smaller instances it would help to send the message that crime wont be tolerated.


----------



## Siouxzee (Dec 8, 2010)

*Evidence*



Tristan17 said:


> Well since I started posting here the two of you have been going on about how I'm stirring the pot. Yet what is it I am saying that is so controversial that people are getting worked up ? Everything I have said I've backed up. And what's more none of it is controversial, it's just being treated as so. Enough.
> 
> Ignored.


Sorry Tristan - backed up how, I have seen no evidence merely your heresay.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Dont know about Cape Town, was back in SA last year July /August, Johannesburg, Pretoria and Durban if there'as a car behind you, you drive around the block, that was wether was driving or being driven.
thats th way its been since about 2000.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I think this must be a wind-up folks........ The reality is something quite different.


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Tristan17 , like TheRooster of the past, has been banned.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Oldbuck said:


> But why ?
> 
> I don't read anything he wrote that goes against any forum rules.



Who knows....???? Most likely for NOT sticking to the line of discussion and inciting argumentation........ When speaking about crime, I don't want to be confronted about apartheid or accusations of wanting SA to be back in the 70's (not that I was even around then).

Oppression does not equal crime.........Revenge perhaps, hence why I am not there - Its not my problem.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Oldbuck said:


> Well you did write as if there was a time you were happy to live in South Africa, but now that time is over. Please tell me what hs changed. As he seem to have pointed out quite clearly is that crime isn't worse it's actually better that it's ever been since being measured. The economy is also relatively thriving. More people have a better quality of life. So what has changed that made South Africa once a place you loved and now a hell hole no one would apparently want to live in ? Isn't it all just a matter of mass propoganda induced perception ? Because to the people I know who chose South Africa it hardly seems the way you have describe it here.


The ANC for starters..... You sounds like another Rooster creation. (PS Who said I loved it?)


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

There you go again........ Australia in 1980 (a better year for me to remember) was like it is now.... actually, worse. South Africa on the other is the complete opposite. I'm not sure why crime and violence has escalated in all area's - All I know is that I don't want to be part of it and I would advise people thinking about moving there to think carefully.........

I look at other ex-colonial countries in Africa and it troubles me.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Oldbuck said:


> But crime has not esculated. That's the entire point he is making and backed up with stats. Accomodate and assimulate this into your argument. In 1980 there was the homeland system and tremendous crime, it simply was not recorded or reported because that would be inconvenient to the propoganda forces of Apartheid. To hold that as some magical time in "South Africa" is again a massive affirmation of approval for Apartheid.


There were crimes in the homelands...... Fantastic. Perhaps they needed a better police force (I was 5) - Perhaps people should take some self responsibility.

If you look at the cape flats - its worse than ever. Crime is through the roof.

Q: Why do people in J-Burg need electric fences? There is no excuse for murder and torture..... No excuse.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Just to set the record straight.

When People use 1993/1994 as a datum point to prove that crime has "improved" since they are losing some important facts.

That period showed the highest number of Violent deaths before and after, the ANC and the IFP (the Zulu Political faction) were fighting for supremacy. 
mass murder happened for political reasons as opposed criminal reasons.

To also say that murder was the same or greater in the 80's because it was not reported is another fiction.The "Homeland" States did not have Crime Stats, true, but All Citizens who were buried legally, still needed a Death Certificate, signed by a Medical Practitioner citing cause of Death.
and copies of that were filed with the then SA Medical and Dental Council, who also controlled the Mortuaries and Post Mortems.

and THEY issued a Public Annual Mortality report which stated Exactly how many peopel died and how, defined right down to Gunshot/Sharp Instrument/Blunt Force Trauma/Poison

That report was classified since 2003 as it disputed SA Police Service Mortality Stats as under-reported.
You need Permission from the Minister of Health to view it.

Before I am labelled as someone justifying or promoting Apartheid, I think that 1948 to 1994 was the worst mistake SA ever made.

As to the "Propaganda" alluded to, I accept totally that most crime happens to poorer people in poorer areas.

The problem is that it also happens in the Suburbs, and any criminal with half a brain can work out that a house in the suburbs offers more "goodies" than a shack in the settlements.

And if it was only theft,people would not fear it as much.
Its the gratuitous violence that happens AFTER.

on a personal note, I did NOT experience any violence.

but then I did not leave after a burglary, or a car theft, or a mugging or two attempted failed hi-jackings,(three actually but they were not really trying the 3rd time)

I left because the 4 guys with guns in my Home COULD have done whatever they wanted to my wife or child, and I was powerless to stop it.

It only happened once in 54 years.

I was not prepared to take the chance of being that "lucky" again.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Just to set the record straight.
> 
> When People use 1993/1994 as a datum point to prove that crime has "improved" since they are losing some important facts.
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is that you're emotionally comprimised and should never be considered an objective rational perspective on South Africa ? I know it's unpopular is this female driven modern world to value truth over feelings but I'm just old fashioned I suppose.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

On this topic there will never be a real "objective" perspective. If you look at the majority of posts, they are quite polarised. Those who have experienced (violent) crime will naturally, and understandably warn of crime, as they will have been left with a very negative impression of South Africa. Those who have not experienced violent crime first-hand will tend to focus on the more positive aspects of this country (which does not mean that they are in denial).

Fact is that there are still thousands of foreign nationals coming to South Africa, preferring the quality of life here and taking the risks as part of the package. Most people will happily live out their lives, and some will return to their country of origin after a few years for a number of different reasons.

Similarly, a number of South Africans are looking to move abroad and happily live out their lives there.

Whatever their experiences were, good or bad, you will still find many on South African forums giving their personal and SUBJECTIVE views.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

spacedman said:


> So what you're saying is that you're emotionally comprimised and should never be considered an objective rational perspective on South Africa ? I know it's unpopular is this female driven modern world to value truth over feelings but I'm just old fashioned I suppose.


another slightly nicer way to say I am "damaged goods" so my viewpoint is invalid?
and in what way is truth changed?

If you want an objective viewpoint you are well able to read and digest Statistics and economic reports.
end of day no-one leaves SA,or goes to live there because of HDI or because there is an effective 43% unemployment rate.
those are merely supporting evidence.
any of these discussion are totally subjective, but that does not mean they are untrue.

from my experience of dealing with other victims of serious crime in SA,alls fine until it happens, then its a Damascus!.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> On this topic there will never be a real "objective" perspective. If you look at the majority of posts, they are quite polarised. Those who have experienced (violent) crime will naturally, and understandably warn of crime, as they will have been left with a very negative impression of South Africa. Those who have not experienced violent crime first-hand will tend to focus on the more positive aspects of this country (which does not mean that they are in denial).
> 
> Fact is that there are still thousands of foreign nationals coming to South Africa, preferring the quality of life here and taking the risks as part of the package. Most people will happily live out their lives, and some will return to their country of origin after a few years for a number of different reasons.
> 
> ...



When one looks at the masses who leave South Africa to live in the U.K or Australia only to come running home when reality of what quality of life they're missing kicks in, you have a pretty good illustration of how much exposure to the South African media poisons the mind. Yes, of course there are people who have been traumatised by crime. But only in South Africa are they encouraged to feel like their experience is in any way normal and likely to happen again. The whole country is psychotic. I blame the apartheid propogandathat assured us if blacks ever ot power we'd be slaughtered as well as the collective guilt of how we treated people. We know fear deep down that the awful way we treated black people that they want to kill us. Amazingly it's just never been the case. We're really got hair trigger neurosis about this issue.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Daxk said:


> another slightly nicer way to say I am "damaged goods" so my viewpoint is invalid?
> and in what way is truth changed?
> 
> If you want an objective viewpoint you are well able to read and digest Statistics and economic reports.
> ...


Yes, you're damaged goods. You have my sympathy. But get it together so that you don't cause more harm than good, not only to the country but to yourself. Fixating on this one aspect of life harms you more than anyone else.

I have been hijacked at gun point in Manila before. Am I in a rush to go back there ? No. I'm emotionally comprimsed. I certainly would right it off to bad luck and go back though. My friends who live there have never had such an experience and love it. Who am I to call them careless or stupid ?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

spacedman said:


> Yes, you're damaged goods. You have my sympathy. But get it together so that you don't cause more harm than good, not only to the country but to yourself. Fixating on this one aspect of life harms you more than anyone else.
> 
> I have been hijacked at gun point in Manila before. Am I in a rush to go back there ? No. I'm emotionally comprimsed. I certainly would right it off to bad luck and go back though. My friends who live there have never had such an experience and love it. Who am I to call them careless or stupid ?


You really are very funny!!


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Daxk said:


> You really are very funny!!


Ah. Blush. Thanks.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Mmmmmmmm, its always interesting how people attack the messenger and not the message. Speaks volumes.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

spacedman said:


> When one looks at the masses who leave South Africa to live in the U.K or Australia only to come running home when reality of what quality of life they're missing kicks in, you have a pretty good illustration of how much exposure to the South African media poisons the mind. Yes, of course there are people who have been traumatised by crime. But only in South Africa are they encouraged to feel like their experience is in any way normal and likely to happen again. The whole country is psychotic. I blame the apartheid propogandathat assured us if blacks ever ot power we'd be slaughtered as well as the collective guilt of how we treated people. We know fear deep down that the awful way we treated black people that they want to kill us. Amazingly it's just never been the case. We're really got hair trigger neurosis about this issue.


I agree with you. Not quite sure of I would blame everything on Apartheid (we hear enough about that from our politicians  ).

I think crime stems from poverty, which comes from unemployment, which is a result of inadequate education and a lack of opportunities for the under-educated. Apartheid may have started this, but it is time to hold government to account. You should only be able to "hide" behind past injustices for so long, before you stop playing the victim and start taking action.

Business too will need to get more involved, but as long as people are unemployable because they were never given the tools while they were at school, then we are left with a catch-22

:focus: And I think this brings us to the actual topic that started all this: "A change coming?" A change in crime stats needs to start at grass route level. Instead of focussing on crime (which is a problem) and trying to convince one another that the other's view is distorted, emotional and one-sided, let's start focussing our energies discussing how to bring about change.

Else these forums continue to be a group-counselling session, with no real value.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> :focus: And I think this brings us to the actual topic that started all this: "A change coming?" A change in crime stats needs to start at grass route level. Instead of focussing on crime (which is a problem) and trying to convince one another that the other's view is distorted, emotional and one-sided, let's start focussing our energies discussing how to bring about change.
> 
> Else these forums continue to be a group-counselling session, with no real value.


Well I agree with you fully. Crime is directly related to poverty (although some simpletons see a correlation between race and crime) . And this is proven since we've started to ease poverty we've seen far less violent crime in the country.

I don't know what solutions you expect from people who are on record as saying "South Africa is finished" or "South Africa has no future."

Nothing more useless in the world that criticism that is designed to harm not help.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Crime & Poverty - Sorry, the link is tenuous at best.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

spacedman said:


> Well I agree with you fully. Crime is directly relatd to poverty. And this is proven since we've started to ease poverty we've seen far less violent crime in the country.
> 
> I don't know what solutions you expect from people who are on record as saying "South Africa is finished" or "South Africa has no future."
> 
> Nothing more useless in the world that criticism that is designed to harm not help.


Why is this not the case elsewhere in the world and during recession?

SA has a future, its called Nigeria.

Want some help.... Get rid of the ANC...... Give SA some tough love and move on from the dark ages.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Crime & Poverty - Sorry, the link is tenuous at best.


Oh wow. Here we go. So what's the cause of crime ? What can I link it to ? Race ?

Poverty isn't the direct cause of crime, but poverty certainly is the thing that leads to the poor social circumstance that lead to crime. Maslow and all that.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Why is this not the case elsewhere in the world and during recession?
> 
> SA has a future, its called Nigeria.
> 
> Want some help.... Get rid of the ANC...... Give SA some tough love and move on from the dark ages.


I don't understand. Nowhere else in the world has crime ?

Nigeria is one of the fastest growing economies in the world by the way.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Why is this not the case elsewhere in the world and during recession?
> 
> SA has a future, its called Nigeria.
> 
> Want some help.... Get rid of the ANC...... Give SA some tough love and move on from the dark ages.


Quite easy: It is much easier to distinguish between colour than it is between social classes. That is nothing special to SA. Look at any country which has this. Don't quite know why you compare SA with Nigeria, but ok.

Getting rid of the ANC is not realistic. They are here to stay. So what else could you recommend that would lead to real change?


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

No, culture.............. upbringing and value. Its funny how people think that everything was rosy in SA before the Europeans came.......


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> Quite easy: It is much easier to distinguish between colour than it is between social classes. That is nothing special to SA. Look at any country which has this. Don't quite know why you compare SA with Nigeria, but ok.
> 
> Getting rid of the ANC is not realistic. They are here to stay. So what else could you recommend that would lead to real change?


This line of racial based thinking of intellectually bankrupt. Lucky for me I went to a private school during Apartheid and schooled with the sons and daughters of the black middle /upper class. There was/is absolutely no evidence of anything more "criminal" about these individuals compared to their equally affluent white counter parts.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

spacedman said:


> I don't understand. Nowhere else in the world has crime ?
> 
> Nigeria is one of the fastest growing economies in the world by the way.


Yes, but not like SA

Good for Nigeria, perhaps my kids will move there someday to make a buck when
1. It's Safe
2. It has 1st world infrastructure
3. A non-corrupt government
4. ETC 

But for now - Who in their right mind would live there???? How many British people immigrate to Nigeria / year?


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> No, culture.............. upbringing and value. Its funny how people think that everything was rosy in SA before the Europeans came.......


Not RELEVANT to this topic. If you wish to start a discussion on this, which isalso very interesting by the way, start a separate thread: "Was Africa better off before Europeans Arrived".


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joaschim said:


> Not RELEVANT to this topic. If you wish to start a discussion on this, which isalso very interesting by the way, start a separate thread: "Was Africa better off before Europeans Arrived".


Very little is relevant to this topic from what I can see lol

Jo xx


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> No, culture.............. upbringing and value. Its funny how people think that everything was rosy in SA before the Europeans came.......


Who thinks that ? And tell me how rosy were things in Europe just 300 years ago ? We're people not pooping out of windows and burning witches at the stake ? And what was England like before the romans came there ? 

Hey why go back that far ? how rosy were things in Eastern Europe just 5 years ago ? Even oday go to peasant parts of Bulgaria etc and you will still see people living in the dark ages. What are you getting at exactly ?


----------



## Trixta (Jan 24, 2011)

rino010 said:


> First, let me start off my saying that I am not South Africa, however, I am married to a South African, have visited several times, keep up regularly with the news there, and my wife and I are seriously contemplating moving there. Now to go on, does anyone think that ZA is on the verge of changeing? With the problems that the ANC is having and them not being able to deliver promises that were made 16 years ago do you believe that people are finally getting wind of this? People who work for my wifes' uncle (who lives in the WC and are coloured and black) say that they no longer support the ANC but are going to be voting for COPE or the DA based on whats going on in Cape Town. Along with that, the crazy Julies Malema really wants to nationalise the mines like in Zim (disaster!!). This isn't a rant or tyrade because I really to love ZA, this is just to see if anyone feels as though something is happening? Cause we've decided the first sign of change and when crime starts improving for our kids sake then we're moving to her native Mossel Bay (which is an amazing place ). Please comment and help give an inside opinion.



The rest of this thread is a joke. 

Getting back on Topic. :focus:

I am a 50 year old, white, male, South African. I have lived here all my life. I have travelled extensively but Africa is in my blood. I don't ever want to leave. Yes, I have experienced some crime. (My home was robed 3 times etc.) 

I chose to stay in South Africa. It is a beautiful country, with ample opportunities if you are willing to take them. Mossel Bay is a fantastic place to live with a negligible crime rate, if compared to most parts of the USA. 

As for the political agenda. One group of thugs took over from the previous group of thugs. And guess what? After them another group of thugs will be in power. It's the same the world over. 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" 

If you live in Africa, know that you are living in a third world country. Don't let the infrastructure fool you. It's still darkest Africa. 

But.....

I get to run an unregistered company. By my self, for my self and pay as little taxies as possible. As long as 'public servants' (read government officials) keep lining their own pockets, I'll do what I can to keep my heard earned cash to my self. 

Yes, South Africa is a little tough,.... but it's a lot freer then the prison states for the USA, the UK or Australia for that matter. 

So, my final answer to your question regarding the politics. Same old, same old. Stay away from politics, it's a corrupt system. Keep out of harms way. Be sensibly with your person and possessions. The have-not's out number the have's and they bread like flies. This is the same the world over. 


Mossel Bay and The Garden Route is just waiting for you. Don't let the dam politicians put you off.


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

STICK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC PLEASE!!!


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Yes, but not like SA
> 
> Good for Nigeria, perhaps my kids will move there someday to make a buck when
> 1. It's Safe
> ...


If your baromoter for a place being a nice place to live is British people emmigrating there, then South Africa is one of the top 3 places in the world to live. 10's of thousands of brits move here a year. 24% of retired people in South Africa are expats. Can we really be so bad ?

The best countries to retire to - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Finance


----------



## Trixta (Jan 24, 2011)

Johanna said:


> STICK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC PLEASE!!!


But.....  I am??


----------



## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Trixta said:


> But.....  I am??


Yes you are, I think I must have posted at the same time as you, my comment was aimed at the postings regarding Europe, Nigeria, etc.


----------



## Trixta (Jan 24, 2011)

It's a political discussion. It is based in one's belief system or point of view. There will never be an end to it. Like most political discussions. "Nothing to see here, moving right along"


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Yes a change is coming... The ANC promised the world and delivered nothing besides for a few black diamonds...... (this is on topic) - If people live there and love it, great but those from 1st world countries need to think hard about the move and what it will mean in their lives.

Its not worth the gamble when there are so many better places to live.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Trixta said:


> It's a political discussion. It is based in one's belief system or point of view. There will never be an end to it. Like most political discussions. "Nothing to see here, moving right along"


You do that - OR - Read the ORIGINAL POST - Look at the question.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Yes, but not like SA
> 
> Good for Nigeria, perhaps my kids will move there someday to make a buck when
> 1. It's Safe
> ...


I still can't quite figure out if you just posting this to get a reaction out of other people or if you really are that bitter.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

spacedman said:


> If your baromoter for a place being a nice place to live is British people emmigrating there, then South Africa is one of the top 3 places in the world to live. 10's of thousands of brits move here a year. 24% of retired people in South Africa are expats. Can we really be so bad ?
> 
> The best countries to retire to - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Finance


Retire and Die with $$$$ - Come come now... Up your argument good sir.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Joaschim said:


> I still can't quite figure out if you just posting this to get a reaction out of other people or if you really are that bitter.


Neither..... Its just a reality.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> Yes a change is coming... The ANC promised the world and delivered nothing besides for a few black diamonds...... (this is on topic) - If people live there and love it, great but those from 1st world countries need to think hard about the move and what it will mean in their lives.
> 
> Its not worth the gamble when there are so many better places to live.


Normally I would just say "Wrong" and post a link. But I'm trying to be nice now. Actually there is strong evidence that service delivery is far better than it's ever been. Perhaps you would be surprised but this is what this study found. 

Survey: Service delivery failure a myth: News24: South Africa: Politics
*
Adriaan Basson 
Johannesburg - A new survey, which will be *released this week, challenges the “widely held” belief that the ANC government has failed to deliver basic services since coming into power in 1994.

Data published by the South *African Institute of Race Relations indicate the following:

» The number of households *living in brick houses has *increased from 5.7 million to 10.4 million - an 80% hike - between 1996 and 2009;

» The number of households *using electricity increased by 120% over the same period;

» At least 130% more households were using electricity to cook in 2009 than in 1996; and

» In the same period, the number of households with access to piped water rose by 71%.

According to the institute’s *deputy CEO, Frans Cronje, the *research seriously challenges the “refrain that is repeated week in and week out in South Africa - that service delivery has failed”.

The data compares living *standard levels over 13 years - *between 1996 and 2009.

ANC 

“Without exception, the data demonstrate significant improvements across almost every living conditions indicator,” says *Cronje.

This is despite “widespread agreement” between the media, government, the ANC, opposition parties, business, trade unions, civil society and academia that service delivery has failed.

“Hence the government and the ANC’s promise that they will ‘fix failing service delivery’.”

Over the 13-year period under review, the number of households in South Africa increased from more than 9 million to 13.8 million – or by 52%.

“This was a significant new *burden on the state, in addition to inherited apartheid-era backlogs.

In part, the new burden resulted from a 22% decline in average household size, which few *observers anticipated or identified,” says Cronje.

In 1996, the average size of a household was 4.6 people and by 2009 that figure had fallen to 3.6 people.

According to Cronje, the country has seen “much improvement in the living standards of its *people, arguably now reaching their highest ever levels”.

Informal settlements

He has three explanations for a surge in service delivery protests, despite considerable progress having been made:

» Significant demands still need to be met, with just under 2 million households still living in informal settlements;

» Relative deprivation. Communities without services have *noticed the government’s ability to supply such services in neighbouring communities; and

» Service delivery will forever be “a moving target”. Government will never be able to meet the *demand for “continually improving standards of living”.*


I hope if you have reasons to disagree with the study it's based on a better study that shows different and not some political bias/prejudice.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Look.... Zimbabwe went up before it went down.... IF SA succeeds, great but as I keep saying - Its not worth people moving there in its current state if you have a choice.

This is always what I have said....

PS You did not mention unemployment.....


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

spacedman said:


> Normally I would just say "Wrong" and post a link. But I'm trying to be nice now. Actually there is strong evidence that service delivery is far better than it's ever been. Perhaps you would be surprised but this is what this study found.
> 
> Survey: Service delivery failure a myth: News24: South Africa: Politics
> *
> ...


You should get back to making a few posts in Thailand again I think

Jo


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jojo said:


> You should get back to making a few posts in Thailand again I think
> 
> Jo


And look at the source of the information...... Just because I tell you the sky is green does not make it so.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> And look at the source of the information...... Just because I tell you the sky is green does not make it so.


The institute of race relations ?

Fast Facts — SAIRR

They have nothing to do with the government.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Halo said:


> And look at the source of the information...... Just because I tell you the sky is green does not make it so.


The sky is a different colour depending on where you're looking from! So end of conversation then really. No point in arguing on a forum

Jo xxx


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

jojo said:


> You should get back to making a few posts in Thailand again I think
> 
> Jo


What could possibly be wrong with posting results of a study ? Please explain how I have broken some taboo. I really don't understand what's expected of me here. To not back up what I say ?


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2011)

spacedman said:


> What could possibly be wrong with posting results of a study ? Please explain how I have broken some taboo. I really don't understand what's expected of me here. To not back up what I say ?


Nothing wrong. There is no point in arguing with certain people. So, let's use our energy to provide feedback to someone who asks for it, instead of trying to win an argument.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

jojo said:


> The sky is a different colour depending on where you're looking from! So end of conversation then really. No point in arguing on a forum
> 
> Jo xxx


That's true. So how do you know which one is correct ? You don't. But the smart money is on the guy who can back up what he says with studies and research. For every argument I've made I've done that. Has he ? Right under the study I asked if he has any reason or information to show the A.N.C has failed at service delivery that rubbishes the study I have posted. He is free to post any he knows of. Else we must assume his opinion is uninformed and basically pulled from the air. No ?


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> Nothing wrong. There is no point in arguing with certain people. So, let's use our energy to provide feedback to someone who asks for it, instead of trying to win an argument.


I just find it strange that I have produced eviudence to show that almost all the beliefs about the country held by this individual go against all the actual evidence available. It's up to him to take the time to reconcile this if he's interested in being true to himself and the world.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

spacedman said:


> That's true. So how do you know which one is correct ? You don't. But the smart money is on the guy who can back up what he says with studies and research. For every argument I've made I've done that. Has he ? Right under the study I asked if he has any reason or information to show the A.N.C has failed at service delivery that rubbishes the study I have posted. He is free to post any he knows of. Else we must assume his opinion is uninformed and basically pulled from the air. No ?



Studies are biased and depend on what you wanna see! Everyone knows that! There is no point in arguing on the forum about it - its the arguing on here that has made me think that SA isnt a nice place, inspite of seeing some beautiful pictures. However, I know there are people who say probably the same as you and I'll listen to them because they arent so arrogant, argumentative and bullying. You really dont do your cause any favours at all! - you'd lose my vote and that of others, so please for the sake of your beliefs stay away from the political arena!

Jo


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

jojo said:


> Studies are biased and depend on what you wanna see! Everyone knows that! There is no point in arguing on the forum about it - its the arguing on here that has made me think that SA isnt a nice place, inspite of seeing some beautiful pictures. However, I know there are people who say probably the same as you and I'll listen to them because they arent so arrogant, argumentative and bullying. You really dont do your cause any favours at all! - you'd lose my vote and that of others, so please for the sake of your beliefs stay away from the political arena!
> 
> Jo


Jo let's be candid here. You live in Spain and have never been to South Africa. I'm hardly here to convince you of anything. I don't need or want your vote. You're the one making it personal, I prefer to let the facts and stats speak for themselves. 

If we have to make it personal, I'm a warm and kind person with no malicious agenda. All I want is the truth to be known and shown in it's proper context. Certainly I'm extremely undeserving of the scorn you've shown me. My crime is arguing so effectively that I seem arrogant to you. But ultimately what's this got to do with anything ? Can we not leave each others percieved personalities alone and keep our feelings out of it and trade in truth and facts ?

Ok, good. The SAIRR has been on record posting many studies unflattering to the government. They're hardly biased. Secondly where is the study or proof (even if biased) to show the A.N.C has failed at service delivery ? There's nothing out there to back up this up. So again the smart money is on the guy with some evidence against the guy with nothing but a hunch.


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Joaschim said:


> A not so neutral moderator... Nice! But I agree. Forums are for opinions only, and if they can be backed-up then great. But arguing will not convince anyone.
> 
> Spacedman's only crime is to be passionate about this country and backing it up, and you cannot fault anyone for that. I do not agree with statistics, as I think they can be interpreted either way, but at least some research was done.
> 
> ...


Sanity !!!

:clap2:


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

spacedman said:


> Sanity !!!
> 
> :clap2:



So why dont you try that approach instead of just a boringly banging on!

Jo


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joaschim said:


> A not so neutral moderator... Nice!


I'm very neutral, my job as far as I'm concerned isnt to take sides, its to stop people arguing and becoming unpleasant - which some posters who regularly come on here with various names tend to do!

Jo xx


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

:focus:

Jo xxx


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Did you see that ?


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Why are my posts invisible to everyone but me ?


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

Here is another study by the same group. This one says that the best performing province is the D.A run Western Cape. So they're clearly not pro A.N.C. 

http://news.iafrica.com/sa/700718.html


----------



## spacedman (Jan 24, 2011)

So only I can read my posts ? Wow Jo Jo , you're a piece of work .How do you sleep at night ?


----------

