# I intend to live forever, or die trying. -- Groucho Marx Not For Seniors Only!



## PieGrande

I will be 70 in two weeks. Thanks to Atkins, I have lost around 45 pounds since moving to Mexico and I am much stronger than when I came here after retirement in 1997. I joke in ten more years I will be Superman.

I can still carry in 110 pound bags of cement, which really freaked a young cousin (nephew here) because when he lived in the US, he never saw any American of any age move that much weight. i told him he needed to go to farm country.

When I came here, I could swing a pick axe like 20 minutes, then had to take a three hour nap to rest. Now, I can swing a pick axe until I get bored (it is boring to swing a pick axe) which is around three hours, then walk downtown for groceries.

My b.p. runs well under 110/69.

So, for me, my health has improved dramatically. Two contacts with a doctor in the last ten years, one over ant bites; one over eating too much goat fat.

Life is good here.


Oops! Actually, I visit my doctor friend several nights a week, I meant professional contact with a doctor twice in ten years.


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## La Osita

Based on a previous thread, the subject came up as to how we expat's in Mexico deal with the emotional, physical and intellectual effects on our "aging" process. So here we are... I'll take the jump. I think it's a good conversation to have.

Maybe a moderator can move Pie Grande's last post from the previous thread (Damn, Can I live on this...) here where it is more applicable.

Physically, moving from Florida (elev. 0) to an area whose elevation is between 6500 - 8000 ', has slowed me down a bit. Breathing difficulties caused by old bad habits (wish I had known then what I know now) are exacerbated by less oxygen. Just more incentive to take care of myself and take long walks every day. No visits to doctors here yet. It makes me a bit nervous still as my Spanish is not very good.

I've always been a bit of a hippy/organic girl, so the access to fresh foods and good eating hasn't changed much. I've found a new enthusiasm for searching out herbs/veges that are not common to Americans and trying new ways of cooking. Sure do eat a lot of beans and tortillas now! Only downside are those wonderful jalapenos and serranos which kick my hot flashes into high gear. So I suffer and sweat. Thank god the air is so dry here... that wet puddle feeling doesn't last long! And, no I'm not going to stop eating hot peppers!

Which brings me to menopause yet again... I have trouble remembering words in English, let alone Spanish. I used to suck up languages so easily. It doesn't come as easy any more. Intellectually/emotionally, I feel a bit starved. I've lived here in El Sauz for almost a year with a return to the US in between. I know this feeling will pass as my Spanish becomes more proficient. Until then, the communications I have in my daily human contact are pretty much limited to hello, goodbye and how much for the tomatoes today... Social gatherings can feel a bit lonely as I don't understand 95% of what they are saying. My husband may be hanging with his guy friends and so I end up sitting quietly for hours and hours with the women and little children furtively staring at me. Only very few women make an attempt at conversations as I'm still a bit of a curiosity in the village. Everyone is very nice but I'm still the outsider and at times it gets lonely. I study my books but there are no Spanish classes here so it's a bit more difficult. My husband tries to help but he's gone 11 hours a day working, so my days are very quiet and in spite of my pleadings he prefers to speak English with me. He somehow believes I'm going to become fluent via osmosis. Hah!

But, in spite of the downsides, overall, I have to say that I am happier here than I was in the US which has contributed to my well being on all levels. All things in good time.


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## PieGrande

I told the moderator to move my posting, since she thought it was a good idea. As a moderator on several boards myself, I tend to trust the moderators to use better judgement than a newbie on a board, unless and until I learn differently.

Let me make a point here. Not all people learn a new language at the same rate. I knew a Cuban refugee who had lived in the US for years, and he could barely communicate in English. He was an educated man, as such. It is not, IMO, intelligence, but a separate skill to learn languages.

My wife went to the US sans English at around age 20. She speaks English with no Spanish accent at all, which is very unusual for those who start as adults. When she retired from the factory, friends asked what she was going to do in retirement. She said, probably move to Mexico, and they asked why. When she told them she was Mexican, they were shocked. They had no clue at all that she was Mexican.

In my case, my first visit was in 1983 to my daughter's quinceañera in Mexico City. I was in your same situation, but apparently, ahem, God wanted me to live in Mexico. I had a little niece, 11 years old, who somehow was able to explain anything to me, without a common language. She taught me to love Mexico and the Mexican people, but especially her, heh, heh.

If you could find even a small child, extremely intelligent as my niece was (is) that child could perhaps help you as my niece helped me.

One of the big things for me here in my village is there is something to do, as much or as little as I want to do. When we go back to McAllen, there is really nothing to do all day, except surf the web, and that kills me after a few days of it with no change.

Here, I can take a sledge hammer and break up rocks that are a nuisance on our property, if I am bored.

Or, I can go for a long walk on the mountains. In McAllen. long walks are not always practical for safety reasons, or extreme heat.

Or, I can go visit family and friends, who are always glad to see me. I had a friend in McAllen, but he died.

If I go walking downtown, my little friends, little girls, come running out for their forehead kiss. For a very paternal man, this is like paradise to have babies to kiss, and no campaign expenses.

And, there is often someone who is in the mood to chat me up, and ask me about my life in the US.

I don't want to sound unpatriotic or anything. But, I have many Internet friends who have expatted in various places. After living in another society, to return to the States is really unpleasant. The US is a very cold, isolated society, and one does not notice it until they live in a friendly, open society.

Universally, after a year in another society, and then a short, painful visit back to the States, they vow to never live in the US again.


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## PieGrande

Since I have been living in Mexico, trying and usually failing to improve my Spanish, I have noted that I sometimes cannot remember the words in my native language. Several years ago, we were visiting Cordoba, and one day I pointed at something on the table, and told my wife I forgot what it was called. She said, "Servilleta."

I said, "I know that, I forget how to say it in English." 

She looked at me as if I had lost my mind and said, "Napkin."


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## PieGrande

Okay, I am posting too much. But, this topic really interests me.

I will be 70 in less than two weeks. My health is better, and I am stronger than 15 years ago when I retired.

My family normally lives to about 84. That would mean I have only 14 more years to live. I gotta' tell you, barring gunfire or flaming wreck, I DO NOT FEEL LIKE I AM GOING TO DIE IN 14 MORE YEARS!

I feel as if I have at least 30 more years. And, yes, I am well aware the elderly can deteriorate very fast.

Even if I do wear out and die at 84, feeling this good means MY LIFE IS GOOD! And, that is much more important than how long I live.


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## La Osita

PieGrande said:


> . Universally, after a year in another society, and then a short, painful visit back to the States, they vow to never live in the US again.


Thanks. I do know what you mean. When I was 18 I took all the money I had saved and moved to Greece for a year. I was so happy there. After a year, I returned to the US and cried for six months because I was so miserable. That experienced irrevocably changed me and so I'm not surprised at all that I am happy to be spending the rest of my life in Mexico. I have no desire to return to the US.

As for the Spanish, there is a two year old boy who lives next door who is just starting to speak. He loves to come visit me. We play color games, numbers... my goal is to try to keep up with his language skills. Maybe we'll learn to speak together!


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## RVGRINGO

About those napkins:
You are not alone! I was never fluent, but was once able to converse fairly well in French. I used it a lot in the Middle East, Polynesia and the Maritime Provinces of Canada, etc. Then, I moved to Mexico and learned some Spanish. Now, if I try to speak French, I fail completely; it simply turns into Spanish after about three words.
Frustrating!

On Greece: I lived in Turkey as a young man and we were able to leave the toddlers with our maid and enjoy an occasional trip to Greece. The only difficulty was that we knew the names of all the foods in Turkish; not politically correct, was it?


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## PieGrande

*Fantastic*



itnavell said:


> Thanks. I do know what you mean. When I was 18 I took all the money I had saved and moved to Greece for a year. I was so happy there. After a year, I returned to the US and cried for six months because I was so miserable. That experienced irrevocably changed me and so I'm not surprised at all that I am happy to be spending the rest of my life in Mexico. I have no desire to return to the US.
> 
> As for the Spanish, there is a two year old boy who lives next door who is just starting to speak. He loves to come visit me. We play color games, numbers... my goal is to try to keep up with his language skills. Maybe we'll learn to speak together!


Exactly! He has a new Tia! And, you have a new sobrino. There you go, problem solved!

You might want to consider speaking English to him. Not teach him English, just speak it. I realize there is a conflict between your need to learn Spanish, and help him learn English, but you can find the dividing line. That little boy may be your friend for life!

I have a niece in Cordoba. When she was that age, I started talking English to her, and she is now bilingual. I thought it had to do with her bilingual school, but once I did not visit her for 6 months, and she forgot almost all her English.

A cousin has two adorable granddaughters, 3 and 5. It is amazing how fast they learned words like, "I like you because you are a good girl!"


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## mickisue1

itnavell said:


> Based on a previous thread, the subject came up as to how we expat's in Mexico deal with the emotional, physical and intellectual effects on our "aging" process. So here we are... I'll take the jump. I think it's a good conversation to have.
> 
> Maybe a moderator can move Pie Grande's last post from the previous thread (Damn, Can I live on this...) here where it is more applicable.
> 
> Physically, moving from Florida (elev. 0) to an area whose elevation is between 6500 - 8000 ', has slowed me down a bit. Breathing difficulties caused by old bad habits (wish I had known then what I know now) are exacerbated by less oxygen. Just more incentive to take care of myself and take long walks every day. No visits to doctors here yet. It makes me a bit nervous still as my Spanish is not very good.
> 
> I've always been a bit of a hippy/organic girl, so the access to fresh foods and good eating hasn't changed much. I've found a new enthusiasm for searching out herbs/veges that are not common to Americans and trying new ways of cooking. Sure do eat a lot of beans and tortillas now! Only downside are those wonderful jalapenos and serranos which kick my hot flashes into high gear. So I suffer and sweat. Thank god the air is so dry here... that wet puddle feeling doesn't last long! And, no I'm not going to stop eating hot peppers!
> 
> Which brings me to menopause yet again... I have trouble remembering words in English, let alone Spanish. I used to suck up languages so easily. It doesn't come as easy any more. Intellectually/emotionally, I feel a bit starved. I've lived here in El Sauz for almost a year with a return to the US in between. I know this feeling will pass as my Spanish becomes more proficient. Until then, the communications I have in my daily human contact are pretty much limited to hello, goodbye and how much for the tomatoes today... Social gatherings can feel a bit lonely as I don't understand 95% of what they are saying. My husband may be hanging with his guy friends and so I end up sitting quietly for hours and hours with the women and little children furtively staring at me. Only very few women make an attempt at conversations as I'm still a bit of a curiosity in the village. Everyone is very nice but I'm still the outsider and at times it gets lonely. I study my books but there are no Spanish classes here so it's a bit more difficult. My husband tries to help but he's gone 11 hours a day working, so my days are very quiet and in spite of my pleadings he prefers to speak English with me. He somehow believes I'm going to become fluent via osmosis. Hah!
> 
> But, in spite of the downsides, overall, I have to say that I am happier here than I was in the US which has contributed to my well being on all levels. All things in good time.


In your search for things to eat, look for foods that contain phytoestrogens. (You can google them.) Basically, they are plant estrogens that fill "holes" in cells. Those cells are used to being filled by your body's estrogen, but it's not making as much, anymore, and the loss of it is leading to both your hot flashes and your memory issues. Not to mention, if you are dealing with mood swings, you can blame that on lack of estrogen, too.

The good news is that phytoestrogens fill the holes, but they don't trigger the issues that HRT drugs do, because they're dissimilar enough from human estrogen that they won't lead to cancers and other nasties.

At 50, I regained my sanity, when I found the phytos. I hadn't even realized how labile I was, till I wasn't, so much.


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## La Osita

RVGRINGO said:


> About those napkins:
> You are not alone! I was never fluent, but was once able to converse fairly well in French. I used it a lot in the Middle East, Polynesia and the Maritime Provinces of Canada, etc. Then, I moved to Mexico and learned some Spanish. Now, if I try to speak French, I fail completely; it simply turns into Spanish after about three words.
> Frustrating!
> 
> On Greece: I lived in Turkey as a young man and we were able to leave the toddlers with our maid and enjoy an occasional trip to Greece. The only difficulty was that we knew the names of all the foods in Turkish; not politically correct, was it?


RVGringo! I'm so glad you decided to join us here. Not too scary . 

No, not politically correct, although I'm not sure the term was coined when I was there in the late 70's. They're a passionate and patriotic folk. Ooh, I had such good times!

Re: the menopause... I used to drink quite a bit of soy milk when I lived in the US but will need to find a new phyto- alternative. My body is feeling a bit hijacked right now and I'm not loving it. 

I'll be delighted when my mind begins to think in Spanish and not in English!!


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## RVGRINGO

You are so young! I lived in Turkey in the early 60s. I had hoped to stay more than the three years, but political events changed things. Turkey continues to thrive; Cuba doesn't. Now you have a hint as to what took me there.


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## Detailman

PieGrande said:


> Exactly! He has a new Tia! And, you have a new sobrino. There you go, problem solved!
> 
> You might want to consider speaking English to him. Not teach him English, just speak it. I realize there is a conflict between your need to learn Spanish, and help him learn English, but you can find the dividing line. That little boy may be your friend for life!
> 
> I have a niece in Cordoba. When she was that age, I started talking English to her, and she is now bilingual. I thought it had to do with her bilingual school, but once I did not visit her for 6 months, and she forgot almost all her English.
> 
> A cousin has two adorable granddaughters, 3 and 5. It is amazing how fast they learned words like, "I like you because you are a good girl!"


A very good idea as young children can pick up languages easily. Where young children have been exposed to numerous languages there are cases where they are speaking 5 or more languages by the time they are five or six years of age. So do not be afraid to speak English to this 2 year old. And if he picks up English he may be of assistance to his parents some time in the future.


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## joelpb

I am suprized by how many have had a bad life if the US. I do not know where all you come from but I lived a good life there. I never had any problems. No crime as you all say you have and afriad to go out. I had many friends and family all good people.
Some of you bad mouth your country and heap good words on Mexico. Do not get me wrong I like Mexico and my wife is a Mexican. She has 11 brothers and sisters and I know them all and they are good people. Her parents are very sweet and the whole family likes me and now I am part of the family. But everyone here is looked as if they are crooks. If you do know them then do not trust them. All homes have bars on the windows and tall fences around the houses. IN the larger cities the polution is very
bad. You hope that the people that are at the road blocks are for real and not banditos. Most of the people that can cross the border do so to shop or see family.
Most would leave Mexico and live in the US if they could so what does it say for Mexico. I live in Mexico and in a big city only because my wife still works. When
she retires we will spend out between the US and San Felipe baja and the rest of Mexico as tourist.


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## sparks

joelpb said:


> I am surprised by how many have had a bad life if the US. .


I don't think such a bad life ... but more expensive, rather shallow politically, maybe boring ... and absolutely provides less of an adventure for people that still have some life left in them.

Maybe golf and house repairs is enough for some retired people .... but moving to another country is an adventure that I couldn't afford when young or really had an urge to do.

We all move here for different reasons


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## Isla Verde

joelpb said:


> I am suprized by how many have had a bad life if the US. I do not know where all you come from but I lived a good life there. I never had any problems. No crime as you all say you have and afriad to go out. I had many friends and family all good people.
> Some of you bad mouth your country and heap good words on Mexico. Do not get me wrong I like Mexico and my wife is a Mexican. She has 11 brothers and sisters and I know them all and they are good people. Her parents are very sweet and the whole family likes me and now I am part of the family. But everyone here is looked as if they are crooks. If you do know them then do not trust them. All homes have bars on the windows and tall fences around the houses. IN the larger cities the polution is very
> bad. You hope that the people that are at the road blocks are for real and not banditos. Most of the people that can cross the border do so to shop or see family.
> Most would leave Mexico and live in the US if they could so what does it say for Mexico. I live in Mexico and in a big city only because my wife still works. When
> she retires we will spend out between the US and San Felipe baja and the rest of Mexico as tourist.


It's fine that you had a good life in the States. Keep in mind that it's a big country, and not everyone's experience has been the same as yours. As for me, I had a good life in the States, but I have a better one here.

I don't know where you live in Mexico, but my experience in Mexico City has not been that "everyone here is looked as if they are crooks. If you do know them then do not trust them". Just as your experience in the US was very positive, so have the experiences of many expats in Mexico been positive, not quite the grim picture your post paints  .

Don't you think that saying that "Most [Mexicans] would leave Mexico and live in the US if they could" is rather a broad statement. Frankly, none of my Mexican friends here would agree. They might enjoy visiting there for a bit, but Mexico is their home and the place they want to live. 

Just my two cents' worth, of course. Feel free to disagree.


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## AlanMexicali

joelpb said:


> I am suprized by how many have had a bad life if the US. I do not know where all you come from but I lived a good life there. I never had any problems. No crime as you all say you have and afriad to go out. I had many friends and family all good people.
> Some of you bad mouth your country and heap good words on Mexico. Do not get me wrong I like Mexico and my wife is a Mexican. She has 11 brothers and sisters and I know them all and they are good people. Her parents are very sweet and the whole family likes me and now I am part of the family. But everyone here is looked as if they are crooks. If you do know them then do not trust them. All homes have bars on the windows and tall fences around the houses. IN the larger cities the polution is very
> bad. You hope that the people that are at the road blocks are for real and not banditos. Most of the people that can cross the border do so to shop or see family.
> Most would leave Mexico and live in the US if they could so what does it say for Mexico. I live in Mexico and in a big city only because my wife still works. When
> she retires we will spend out between the US and San Felipe baja and the rest of Mexico as tourist.


Most would leave Mexico and live in the US is a very narrow naive view specific to Mexicali and border regions, I feel. As for people being wary of their property, that is just common sense. As for everyone sees strangers not trustworthy, this is another naive notion. Most Mexicans I know would never want to live anywhere except where they live and prosper. The ones who did immigrate to the US usually married an American. The ones who come back to visit friends and family in Mexico usually glorify living in the US to compensate for not being with their family and are usually acting as big shots after awhile and Americanized to be wasteful consumers, not that Mexico is not doing this also.

It is good you are assimilating well into a Mexican large family and their culture, but need more time and unbiased experiences to see what is really going on behind the scenes and speak passable Spanish. This takes years, not just one year.


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## Detailman

We were discussing really hot topics!!  :focus:


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## RVGRINGO

We knew a five year old boy, in Turkey, who was the son of an American/Turkish/Italian/Greek & French mixed family. He spoke all five languages and often acted as 'interpreter', standing in the middle of a group of adults, sort of entranced, and repeating whatever he heard in the appropriate language, or languages, to those around him. I'll never forget that! Makes me Jealous!


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## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> We knew a five year old boy, in Turkey, who was the son of an American/Turkish/Italian/Greek & French mixed family. He spoke all five languages and often acted as 'interpreter', standing in the middle of a group of adults, sort of entranced, and repeating whatever he heard in the appropriate language, or languages, to those around him. I'll never forget that! Makes me Jealous!


RVGringo backs up what I said above. Both on the same page -- almost!


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## FHBOY

The detour on this thread has been most interesting. I will not deny that *joelpd* had no bad experiences in the States and may be a bit more critical of Mexicans, but that is his experience and I am glad that any challenges made to his posts have been respectful and civil. 

Just to add my two cents, I love the USA, I'd love to be able to live here in retirement...but it just isn't going to happen for reasons including economics. And that saddens me. But, my wife and I need an adventure for the next chapter in our lives, and staying here is, unfortunately, no adventure. Also, looking over the choices for retirement locations in the USA, there isn't one we could decide on - whereas arriving in Mexico, first PV then Ajijic - that we "knew" was right. Diff'rent strokes for different folks.

:focus: 

But back to topic - has the move to Mexico made a physical, intellectual and/or emotional difference to you as your entered your retirement years, as you've aged (because some of us will never grow up). Do you feel that "adventure" has played a part in your life style? And, do you find the adventure wearing off - or do you still look forward to each day and the challenges of living in a new culture? Ooops - and does that challenge keep you sharper than you imagine you'd have been had you not moved?

Lots of questions - I can't wait for the answers.


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## joelpb

All responders have good points. If people felt secure why all the bars on the windows
and tall fences. Most people have two or three dogs. I know I am commenting on a 
small area of the country which is a mistake. I do not know all of Mexico. I do not think
I am critical of Mexicans. I did not move to Mexico because I had to, but because I got
married. The only thing I have to say bad about the city I live in is the polution oh
and the bad streets. HaHa. I love san felipe. I do not speak spanish real good now
because my wife speaks good english. We go to the movies and they are sub.

We live good. My wife is upper middle class and I have a good pension. She owns
her three homes so no payments. Life is good.

My wife is like the person who never knew a stranger. She talks to people like
she has known them for ever.

Yes life is good here in Mexico. When my wife retires in two more years we will
then do a lot of traveling and seeing all of Mexico.

Yes the people we meet have all been very nice. We have a group that meets
every friday night and has dinner and just talks and has a good time.

I fell very lucky to have a very good women who is good looking and very smart
plus a very hard worker and good mother and daughter.


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## makaloco

Maybe it's because I've been an expat for so long, but my expectations were far more realistic about moving to Mexico than they were about retirement. I don't do the aging thing well at all. Somehow, in my vision of retirement, I was 30 again: tall, thin, tan, blonde, in great shape, ready to spend all day windsurfing and then head out for an evening of drinking, dancing, and picking up guys. Instead, retirement allowed me time to notice that I was 60-something, graying, overweight, unattractive, noise-averse, and not particularly energetic. I can still move concrete blocks and 20 kg sacks of tile grout, but I'm pretty sure I don't look at all graceful or cute, and I'm as likely as not to throw my back out. Bummer.

My vision of retirement also had me enjoying things like cooking and entertaining. What was I thinking? Despite repeated attempts at denial, I hate shopping, food preparation, and cleanup as much as I always have, and my idea of entertaining is to have a friend over for Scrabble and wine. Unfortunately, I still thoroughly enjoy eating and drinking and have no patience for deprivation. Having spent my whole life with the appetite of a linebacker and the metabolism of a hummingbird, I honestly have no idea how to diet. At one point I saw that "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" spray contained zero calories, so I started drinking it when I felt hungry between meals instead of eating Doritos. Apparently that's not how the dieting thing works.

Past and present habits are catching up with me, to be sure, but instead of being motivated to change, I figure the damage was done long ago, and I might as well continue to enjoy myself. After 45 or so years of working, I feel I've earned the right to do as I damned well please, and I'm thankful to be in a country where nobody gets in my face about it. I may not grow old gracefully (in fact, I may not grow old at all), but I'll do it quietly and without intervention, thank you.

Retiring and moving to Mexico doesn't really change who or what you are. I'd have the same attitude if I were living in Nebraska or Uzbekistan. Aging sucks, and while I'm making the best of it, I'm not liking it one bit. But it would be far worse in a dreary climate with cold, judgmental people and crappy food. My dog loves me, and everybody else in Mexico seems to tolerate me, so most days I can grit my teeth and smile through it. Some days, I even laugh about it.


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## La Osita

Isn't there at least a bit of that in all of us!


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## FHBOY

On our refrigerator "Door of Philosophical Thoughts" along with the Zits Comics, Peanuts, Pearls Befroe Swine, dwells this saying:

LIFE IS NOT MEASURED IN POUND AND OUNCES - BUT IN LAUGHS AND SMILES!

Yes, I have a goal to drop the 30-40 lbs in the next two years, but I darn sure am not going to give up laughing and smiling and living to do it.


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## sag42

PieGrande said:


> I will be 70 in two weeks. Thanks to Atkins, I have lost around 45 pounds since moving to Mexico and I am much stronger than when I came here after retirement in 1997. I joke in ten more years I will be Superman.
> 
> I can still carry in 110 pound bags of cement, which really freaked a young cousin (nephew here) because when he lived in the US, he never saw any American of any age move that much weight. i told him he needed to go to farm country.
> 
> When I came here, I could swing a pick axe like 20 minutes, then had to take a three hour nap to rest. Now, I can swing a pick axe until I get bored (it is boring to swing a pick axe) which is around three hours, then walk downtown for groceries.
> 
> My b.p. runs well under 110/69.
> 
> So, for me, my health has improved dramatically. Two contacts with a doctor in the last ten years, one over ant bites; one over eating too much goat fat.
> 
> Life is good here.
> 
> 
> Oops! Actually, I visit my doctor friend several nights a week, I meant professional contact with a doctor twice in ten years.


You're my new hero. Great life style. Rural Puebla must agree with you.


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## FHBOY

makaloco said:


> Maybe it's because I've been an expat for so long, but my expectations were far more realistic about moving to Mexico than they were about retirement. I don't do the aging thing well at all. Somehow, in my vision of retirement, I was 30 again: tall, thin, tan, blonde, in great shape, ready to spend all day windsurfing and then head out for an evening of drinking, dancing, and picking up guys... Some days, I even laugh about it.


I am told I do not look my age - and idle boast - and I certainly don't act it. I have been misteken for someone ten years younger so when I told people I was retiring because I was old enough - they we amazed. That being said - I had the AHA moment several times in the past few years.

I walked past a shop window and looked in the reflection and there was an older man staring back at me - I didn't know who that reflection was - it sure as heck wasn't me! I was at a trade show and we were talking about marketing and sales to corporations, and a younger man, in response to a question about where I sell to told me that I was using sales techniques aimed at the wrong people: I was selling to my contmeporaries rather than aiming my marketing to ther "underlings" - as he explained: people of "my age" were not longer the ones searching for products, they were the ones who ask the younger people to do it. I felt old.

Yes, I have aches and pains, I can't lift 40 lbs as easily as I could, I can't run up and down steps lle I did, etc etc etc - but I have not yet lost that 26 year old man that I still think I am. I'd love to be able to live the life I did, pick up the women I did (no, I am happily married), think I am still the "chick magnet" I thought I was, but I am not. Now when young women see me, they call me "sir". So be it, I'll have to live with "sir".

Actually, this "sir" status allows me to get away with more than I could when I was younger - it ain't half bad - $1.00 coffee at McDonald, AARP away!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Actually, this "sir" status allows me to get away with more than I could when I was younger - it ain't half bad - $1.00 coffee at McDonald, AARP away!


And when you move to Mexico and get your resident visa (whatever it will be called), you'll be able to get an INAPAM card that will get you all sorts of nifty discounts!


----------



## RVGRINGO

You've all made me feel so much ......................... older!


----------



## Tech Girl

PieGrande said:


> I can still carry in 110 pound bags of cement, which really freaked a young cousin (nephew here) because when he lived in the US, he never saw any American of any age move that much weight.


I have a friend who can carry around a couple of boxes of welding rods with no problem but then she has some beef on her not to mention a few well placed tattoos. Each box weighs 50lbs. What is your height and weight?


----------



## PieGrande

*Thank You*



sag42 said:


> You're my new hero. Great life style. Rural Puebla must agree with you.


Why, thank you. What nice words.

Yes, it does. But, the biggest change in my health is the diet. I was pre-diabetic, though I didn't fully understand it. My daughter loaned me her older books on Atkins. The first day on low carb and the constant hunger/eating was gone.

The lighter I get, the stronger I get.

There are around 10 people here who have observed my loss of weight, and increase in strength, and now are on more or less the same diet.

The most important convert was a doctor, 35 years in practice, and he parroted the usual drivel about low fat; high carb. In November, he was very freaked out. When he told me his symptoms, I told him he was going to die, and he knew I was right. He lost 15 pounds in two months, and is feeling great. The reason he is important is he is now preaching low carb to his patients.

Life in Puebla is much happier when I am healthy and strong.

There are two books, not trying to sell anything. First is GOOD CALORIES BAD CALORIES by Taubes. He explains the sequence of events which induced doctors to give out exactly wrong information in dieting.

The second, though it is only one choice, is THE NEW ATKINS FOR THE NEW YOU. It is put out by the Atkins Institute, Atkins died a few years ago, and is an improved diet over the old Atkins.


----------



## PieGrande

*And...*



Tech Girl said:


> I have a friend who can carry around a couple of boxes of welding rods with no problem but then she has some beef on her not to mention a few well placed tattoos. Each box weighs 50lbs. What is your height and weight?


How old is she?


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> Why, thank you. What nice words.
> 
> Yes, it does. But, the biggest change in my health is the diet. I was pre-diabetic, though I didn't fully understand it. My daughter loaned me her older books on Atkins. The first day on low carb and the constant hunger/eating was gone.
> 
> The lighter I get, the stronger I get.
> 
> There are around 10 people here who have observed my loss of weight, and increase in strength, and now are on more or less the same diet.
> 
> The most important convert was a doctor, 35 years in practice, and he parroted the usual drivel about low fat; high carb. In November, he was very freaked out. When he told me his symptoms, I told him he was going to die, and he knew I was right. He lost 15 pounds in two months, and is feeling great. The reason he is important is he is now preaching low carb to his patients.
> 
> Life in Puebla is much happier when I am healthy and strong.
> 
> There are two books, not trying to sell anything. First is GOOD CALORIES BAD CALORIES by Taubes. He explains the sequence of events which induced doctors to give out exactly wrong information in dieting.
> 
> The second, though it is only one choice, is THE NEW ATKINS FOR THE NEW YOU. It is put out by the Atkins Institute, Atkins died a few years ago, and is an improved diet over the old Atkins.


I am glad it is working for you. Diabetes is a scary disease. 

I think every body is different and you just have to find something that works for you. When I was a kid I was very over weight. I grew out of it in my early 20s but by the time I was 30 I was starting to put on weight again. I progressively changed my diet and have managed to control my weight for a little over 35 years now. But it is a continual effort, I could put on a lot in no time at all if I didn't pay attention to what I eat. But I have done it with exactly the opposite of the diet you are discussing. 

My point is that there is no magic solution that works for everyone. Everyone has to figure out what works for themselves. But with the US and Mexico leading the world in the overweight contest, and now probably in the incidence of diabetes, it is pretty clear that most people are either not looking or not finding anything that works.


----------



## mickisue1

The piece of the Atkins diet that is exceptionally helpful for people with diabetes is the fact that it's extremely low in carbohydrates.

That, and the way your body deals with low carbs causes weight loss.

For those with type one diabetes, weight control isn't the issue; the damage to their pancreases is: they cannot manufacture adequate insulin to move unused carbs to the fat cells, and excess carbohydrates in the blood stream are extremely toxic to our bodies. Years ago, low carbs were an accepted part of the diet of the type one diabetic. It's heartening to see that they are, slowly, making a comeback. Insulin is not benign, either.

For those with type two diabetes, low carbs can lead to the disease improving to the point of disappearing. When someone develops type two diabetes, they are usually, but not always, overweight. 

But what all type two diabetics have in common is that they have forced their pancreases into making insulin so much and so frequently that they have become insulin resistant; the same amount of their own insulin can't clear as much carbohydrate as it used to.

I won't go into my rant against the idea that tons of grains are good for you, and healthy fats are bad. 

Maybe some other day. But I will say this: dietary changes and increasing activity can help your body work in the way that it's supposed to.


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> ... But I will say this: dietary changes and increasing activity can help your body work in the way that it's supposed to.


+1 (i.e I agree)


----------



## PieGrande

Being overweight is not the real problem. Sure, being thin can make you feel better. The problem is the carb diet puts fat and crud in your veins and arteries, which will eventually lead to what we call a heart attack once the heart muscles no longer get enough blood.. Lowell Burkhead, inventor of the Burkhead Safety Rack used world wide, was thin, but he still died of diabetes and heart disease.

Also, high carb produces enough insulin your body eventually cannot use it, which means you have diabetes and still have plenty of insulin.

The real problem is the medicos have been giving out wrong information for so long that people give any diet recommendation a big yawn. Someone posted GOOD CALORIES BAD CALORIES by Taubes. He explains exactly how it happened.

The Atkins Institute had 95% success with the low carb diet. Yet, as you know, most people pay no attention to low carb. Taubes also explains why the M.D.'s ignored Atkins in spite of his 95% success rate.

Any low carb diet, IMO, will work. Since we are all different, different people will relate to a different diet.


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> ... The problem is the carb diet puts fat and crud in your veins and arteries, which will eventually lead to what we call a heart attack once the heart muscles no longer get enough blood.. ...


Not saying you are wrong, but.. 

I am no nutrition scientist, but that just doesn't make much sense to me.

“There is no use trying, said Alice; one can't believe impossible things. I dare say you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> Not saying you are wrong, but..
> 
> I am no nutrition scientist, but that just doesn't make much sense to me.
> 
> “There is no use trying, said Alice; one can't believe impossible things. I dare say you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland


It doesn't make sense, because we've been taught for decades that eating fat causes heart attacks.

But have you ever wondered why the really "bad" cholesterol is called "triglyceride"?

It's because triglycerides are fats with three sugar molecules in their structures. 

It seems, at a cursory glance, that eating fat WOULD lead to high cholesterol and circulation problems. But it's not that simple.

In the first place, our bodies can't use fat until it's been broken down, a tedious process, and then it's mostly used for things like lining the neural pathways to make it easier to transmit the electrical impulses. 

It's CARBS that are used to make fat, and they are extremely easy to break down. Once broken down, if they aren't used right away for energy to enable movement, they get hauled to the fat cells for storage by the insulin. BTW: insulin also carries salt to the fat cells. That's why it doesn't seem that eating salty meat makes you bloated, but eating salty chips, does. The insulin won't come to haul off the salt, alone. Its release is triggered by the presence of sugars in the bloodstream, not salt.

If you eat a bunch of salt without carbs, you just get thirsty and pee it out.

Back to heart attacks. Another thing that excess carbs does is create an inflammatory response in the circulatory system. The walls of the veins and arteries become inflamed, and inflamed tissues are stickier. Sticky tissue tends to grab stuff, like cholesterol, and the stuck cholesterol slows the rate of flow through the vessel, because it narrows it. Slow down the blood flow enough, and you start to have blood coagulating (clotting) in the vessels themselves, leading to heart attacks, strokes, peripheral issues (like blood clots in the calves) etc.

The book that PieGrande recommended by Gary Taubes is very enlightening. He's a science writer for the NYT, and has written a number of books on the fables we've been told in reference to nutrition.

I've studied nutrition my entire life, as an RN, a mom and a wellness coach. It wasn't till I read that book that I had my AHA!! moment about why things don't seem to work as I was taught they do.

DISCLAIMER: this is a rough sketch of very complex processes. But it's as accurate as I can get it, given the need to state it in a short and understandable fashion.


----------



## makaloco

Being hopeless at dieting, I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion, especially TG's Alice quote, which is so "me". I was whining to a doctor about being overweight, and she told me to read Zona Perfecta (Zone diet). I said I'd read a gazillion weight loss resources and they all contradicted each other. Her response? "Don't read everything, just read this one thing."


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> It doesn't make sense, because we've been taught for decades that eating fat causes heart attacks.
> 
> But have you ever wondered why the really "bad" cholesterol is called "triglyceride"?
> 
> It's because triglycerides are fats with three sugar molecules in their structures.
> 
> It seems, at a cursory glance, that eating fat WOULD lead to high cholesterol and circulation problems. But it's not that simple.
> 
> In the first place, our bodies can't use fat until it's been broken down, a tedious process, and then it's mostly used for things like lining the neural pathways to make it easier to transmit the electrical impulses.
> 
> It's CARBS that are used to make fat, and they are extremely easy to break down. Once broken down, if they aren't used right away for energy to enable movement, they get hauled to the fat cells for storage by the insulin. BTW: insulin also carries salt to the fat cells. That's why it doesn't seem that eating salty meat makes you bloated, but eating salty chips, does. The insulin won't come to haul off the salt, alone. Its release is triggered by the presence of sugars in the bloodstream, not salt.
> 
> If you eat a bunch of salt without carbs, you just get thirsty and pee it out.
> 
> Back to heart attacks. Another thing that excess carbs does is create an inflammatory response in the circulatory system. The walls of the veins and arteries become inflamed, and inflamed tissues are stickier. Sticky tissue tends to grab stuff, like cholesterol, and the stuck cholesterol slows the rate of flow through the vessel, because it narrows it. Slow down the blood flow enough, and you start to have blood coagulating (clotting) in the vessels themselves, leading to heart attacks, strokes, peripheral issues (like blood clots in the calves) etc.
> 
> The book that PieGrande recommended by Gary Taubes is very enlightening. He's a science writer for the NYT, and has written a number of books on the fables we've been told in reference to nutrition.
> 
> I've studied nutrition my entire life, as an RN, a mom and a wellness coach. It wasn't till I read that book that I had my AHA!! moment about why things don't seem to work as I was taught they do.
> 
> DISCLAIMER: this is a rough sketch of very complex processes. But it's as accurate as I can get it, given the need to state it in a short and understandable fashion.


Interesting post. I guess one question I have, is Where does the cholesterol come from that the carbohydrates are causing to stick to the blood vessels. There is no cholesterol in most of the high carb foods.

But basically, I am out of my depth in this conversation. I have been a vegetarian for about 40 years and a vegan for about 10 years. So what I know about fats and meat heavy diets, is essentially nothing beyond that I have no interest in eating them for a whole host of reasons that I will spare you reading about.


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## RVGRINGO

Your body makes cholesterol out of any food that you eat. Some people are more likely to have high cholesterol and Triglycerides than others. There isn't too much that you can do about it, other than exercise and a reasonable diet. It has less to do with 'what' you eat and more to do with 'how much' you eat. That said, 'fast food joints', salt and prepared/packaged/canned foods are best avoided. That is a lot easier to do in Mexico, isn't it?


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> Interesting post. I guess one question I have, is Where does the cholesterol come from that the carbohydrates are causing to stick to the blood vessels. There is no cholesterol in most of the high carb foods.
> 
> But basically, I am out of my depth in this conversation. I have been a vegetarian for about 40 years and a vegan for about 10 years. So what I know about fats and meat heavy diets, is essentially nothing beyond that I have no interest in eating them for a whole host of reasons that I will spare you reading about.


That one's easy: your body MAKES it. We can't even use sugars, the simplest molecules of food, without breaking them down. What we think of as sugar is two glucose molecules, they have to be broken to use.

The chemical formula for table sugar is C12H22O11. (I don't know how to do subscripts in posting.) Cholesterol is C27H45OH. Notice that all the components in sugar are found in cholesterol, just in different amounts.

I could, but won't go into the convoluted thinking that led Ancel Keys, a professor at the U of MN to decide that EATING cholesterol raised cholesterol. 

Or the force of his personality, that he used to convince a generation of other researchers to ignore the multitude of conclusions that could have been drawn from various studies, in favor of that one, not all that likely, outcome.

One example: the Inuit, eating their native diet, exist almost exclusively on meat and fat. Only in the short Arctic summers do they eat any plant materials, at all. 

Yet, until they started eating a more American/European diet, with high amounts of grains and sugars, heart attack and stroke were nearly unknown in their population.

It's not an easy shift to make, in point of view, I know.

It took me a LONG time to be converted. But if you look hard enough, there are more and more researchers who are saying what should have been said long ago: it's not meat.

It's not fat.

It's processed carbs, including grains, that lead to circulatory disease.

Back off my soapbox.

Do those of you already in MX find that you are losing weight, not because of dieting, but because the foods available are fresher, and because you are getting more exercise?

That can, of course, lead to longer, more fulfilling lives, right there.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Do those of you already in MX find that you are losing weight, not because of dieting, but because the foods available are fresher, and because you are getting more exercise?


I feel healthy but haven't lost any weight. I get as much exercise as I did when living in the States because there I also lived in a big city and walked everywhere. Though I know that the fruits and vegetables and even eggs I eat are fresher here, there are also those tasty tortillas and cheese (Mexicans love cheese and put it on everything!) and _pan dulce to keep the pounds on._


----------



## makaloco

mickisue1 said:


> Do those of you already in MX find that you are losing weight, not because of dieting, but because the foods available are fresher, and because you are getting more exercise?


If only it were that easy! I don't know that I eat more fresh food, but anyhow, I've never heard that fresher food is lower in calories. Overall, I don't naturally get more exercise here than I did where I lived before, and even if I force myself to exercise regularly, I don't lose much weight.


----------



## PieGrande

*Of course*

Yes, I am well aware after a whole lifetime of hearing totally false information from all the "expert" doctors, it is very hard to shift gears and accept the fact that is is exactly backwards from what you have believed and they have told you. (So, how many of your doctors are slim and trim? Most doctors I know are pretty hefty. Not that that tells you for sure, but it could raise credibility issues.)

The Atkins Institute had more than 50,000 patients and 95% of them the diet worked, period. 50,000, not 15.

I know of no way to convince people beyond that. And, reading the books.

Any of the books listed will explain it.

I had an advantage most people including doctors did not have. I was raised on a dairy farm. I noted the most interesting thing when I was very young, probably before I started school, so interesting I have never forgotten it.

*I noticed that cows ate green grass, but gave white milk.*

These doctors in these false studies actually imagined that only by eating fat can you get fat, and only by eating cholesterol can you have cholesterol in your blood. They designed experiments to "prove" it. If they had been raised on a dairy farm, they might not have been led astray like that.

It is a long slow process, but very slowly the evidence comes in that for most people of European ancestry, low carb is the healthy diet. In Germany, they are doing experiments in CURING CANCER with low carb. Dr. Warburg, many decades ago, got the Nobel for showing cancer gets its food from glucose. Reduce the glucose enough and the cancer fizzles out. A low carb diet is also very low glucose. The liver produces the glucose the brain needs.

A man named something like Stefansson proved around 1920 that you do not have any need whatsoever for carbs. There is no MDR for carbohydrates! He ate an all meat and egg diet for ten years on the Arctic ocean. He was called a liar, and his mate went on a closely supervised meat diet in the US for a whole year.

Anyway, enough. You can read the books, and completely change your health profile, or not, as you wish. But, you have heard about it.

I really feel sick every time someone I know dies of a heart attack or type II diabetes. It just makes me sick! So needless and tragic.


----------



## PieGrande

*True*



makaloco said:


> If only it were that easy! I don't know that I eat more fresh food, but anyhow, I've never heard that fresher food is lower in calories. Overall, I don't naturally get more exercise here than I did where I lived before, and even if I force myself to exercise regularly, I don't lose much weight.


Exactly. The book by Taubes, as well as others, show that studies consistently prove almost no one loses weight and keeps it off by either exercise or starvation (reduced calories) diets.

Yet, that is what most doctors recommend. IMO, they have destroyed the health of an entire nation.


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> ... There is no MDR for carbohydrates! He ate an all meat and egg diet for ten years on the Arctic ocean. He was called a liar, and his mate went on a closely supervised meat diet in the US for a whole year. ...


Not disagreeing, just adding. 

There is also no MDR for meat or eggs. Human beings are omnivores and can get all the calories and nutrients they need from a lot of different sources.


----------



## mickisue1

What humans get from meats, though, is complex vitamins and antioxidants that are not available from any other sources.

For example, you can get omega 3 fatty acids from a variety of sources. But you can ONLY get all the omega 3s from cold water fish, or supplements that use them at their source.

I have no argument with vegetarians or vegans; live and let live. It's healthier to eat no meat than the garbage that is raised in the US, fed with corn, antibiotics and growth hormone.

But wild caught fish, grass raised beef and free range chicken have nutrients that you can't get elsewhere. Not to mention tasting heavenly.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Here, we eat goats! Down south, they eat insects! In both places, people work very hard. Longevity and infant mortality are equal to that in the USA. Maybe the culprit is Coca Cola!


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Coca Cola*



RVGRINGO said:


> Here, we eat goats! Down south, they eat insects! In both places, people work very hard. Longevity and infant mortality are equal to that in the USA. Maybe the culprit is Coca Cola!


I am to only person in Mexico who drinks Coke Light, that I know, all others drink sugared sodas, auga fresca, lots of sugar, or sugar added fruit juices; Sunny Delight being very common as are yoghourt drinks. My wife drinks Belight flavored water. I like to drink and drive and have stopped in small villages for a break and the tiendas and vendors usually do not carry Coke Light. At parties usually they do not have diet sodas or Belight, but lots of Coca Cola, Fresca, Squirt and Manzanita Sol apple flavored sodas.


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> What humans get from meats, though, is complex vitamins and antioxidants that are not available from any other sources.
> 
> For example, you can get omega 3 fatty acids from a variety of sources. But you can ONLY get all the omega 3s from cold water fish, or supplements that use them at their source.
> 
> I have no argument with vegetarians or vegans; live and let live. It's healthier to eat no meat than the garbage that is raised in the US, fed with corn, antibiotics and growth hormone.
> 
> But wild caught fish, grass raised beef and free range chicken have nutrients that you can't get elsewhere. Not to mention tasting heavenly.


I spent some time thinking about how to respond to this post in a way that would not be: 1) Defensive, 2) Offensive, and 3) boring to all the other followers of this thread. I concluded that any response at all would probably violate all three, particularly the last, so I will keep it very short. 

While I greatly respect mickisue1's knowledge on these issues and have learned several things from her/him, there are several misstatements of fact in the quoted post. To wit:
"not available from other sources" in the first paragraph.
"can ONLY get" in the second paragraph.

And in the last paragraph, "tasting heavenly" is a statement of preference, and clearly not true for everyone.


----------



## PieGrande

In my interpretation, there are many ways to be healthy on a low carb diet. The New Atkins, just out a year or so, is very strong on vegetables, and my friend The Doctor is eating mostly vegetables with some meat.

My most basic view of life, which includes my political views, is human being are on a Bell Curve on almost every parameter, not only physically, but also emotionally. What one likes, the next person does not.

While it is true that around 70% of people in the US need a low carb diet for maximum health, how to get there will just naturally vary widely. The only reason I mention the New Atkins is because I know it, and it makes no sense to talk about something I know little or nothing about.

If you like meat, that is probably a valid way to go. If you like vegetables, as long as you get all the stuff you need, that is also probably a valid way to go.

In fact, my definition of liberty is being allowed to make your own choices as much as possible.

So, while I am very clearly an evangelist for low carb for most people, each person should find a way to achieve it that suits that person.

Diets are like dancing. I am told a really good dancer can improvise as he/she goes, and be very artistic about it. Most of us learn a given dance: waltz; two-step; twist; rock and roll; we learn it then we practice it.

I see diets the same way. We have a choice of diets, Atkins; New Atkins; Taubes; Omega; etc. And, we imitate it. In the end, we can end up the same place.


----------



## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> I see diets the same way. We have a choice of diets, Atkins; New Atkins; Taubes; Omega; etc. And, we imitate it. In the end, we can end up the same place.


For me the best diet is a sensible one with a balance of carbohydrates, meat, fish, chicken, veggies and fruit.


----------



## PieGrande

I agree. If you weight what you weighed when you were 20, and your b.p. is what it was then, you have the perfect diet, no matter what it is.


----------



## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> I agree. If you weight what you weighed when you were 20, and your b.p. is what it was then, you have the perfect diet, no matter what it is.


Wouldn't that be nice . . . .


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> I spent some time thinking about how to respond to this post in a way that would not be: 1) Defensive, 2) Offensive, and 3) boring to all the other followers of this thread. I concluded that any response at all would probably violate all three, particularly the last, so I will keep it very short.
> 
> While I greatly respect mickisue1's knowledge on these issues and have learned several things from her/him, there are several misstatements of fact in the quoted post. To wit:
> "not available from other sources" in the first paragraph.
> "can ONLY get" in the second paragraph.
> 
> And in the last paragraph, "tasting heavenly" is a statement of preference, and clearly not true for everyone.


I agree with your comment on the "tasting heavenly."

But please tell me where I erred in my statement about meats and fish being the sole sources of some, not all, nutrients?

It's possible that you can make some of the them in a lab, but I was discussing natural sources.

It's not the totality of the meat, etc.

Proteins, and complete ones at that, are available in vegetable sources.

It's the micronutrients that I'm talking about.


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> I agree with your comment on the "tasting heavenly."
> 
> But please tell me where I erred in my statement about meats and fish being the sole sources of some, not all, nutrients?
> 
> It's possible that you can make some of the them in a lab, but I was discussing natural sources.
> 
> It's not the totality of the meat, etc.
> 
> Proteins, and complete ones at that, are available in vegetable sources.
> 
> It's the micronutrients that I'm talking about.


To keep it short, let's just consider two of the nutrients most likely to be deficient in a vegan diet: Vitamin B12 and DHA (Docosahexenoic acid and one of the Omega-3s that you mentioned). Vitamin B12 can be obtained from nutritional yeast. I am not sure if you consider that "being made in a lab". DHA can be made by the body from ALA (alpha-linoleic acid, another omega-3) and can be obtained from some species of marine algae. ALA is found in non-animal sources like flaxseed, walnuts and canola oil.

By no means am I arguing for a diet of yeast in flaxseed oil, but I did object to the absoluteness of your statements that they are only available from animal sources.


----------



## mickisue1

TundraGreen said:


> To keep it short, let's just consider two of the nutrients most likely to be deficient in a vegan diet: Vitamin B12 and DHA (Docosahexenoic acid and one of the Omega-3s that you mentioned). Vitamin B12 can be obtained from nutritional yeast. I am not sure if you consider that "being made in a lab". DHA can be made by the body from ALA (alpha-linoleic acid, another omega-3) and can be obtained from some species of marine algae. ALA is found in non-animal sources like flaxseed, walnuts and canola oil.
> 
> By no means am I arguing for a diet of yeast in flaxseed oil, but I did object to the absoluteness of your statements that they are only available from animal sources.


Here's a link to an abstract published in JADA. Omega-3 fatty acids: comparison of plant and seafood sources in human nutrition. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central

EPA was the specific FA I was referring to.

I do hope you are enjoying this as much as I am; nothing is as energizing as being forced to document my opinions!


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> Here's a link to an abstract published in JADA. Omega-3 fatty acids: comparison of plant and seafood sources in human nutrition. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central
> 
> EPA was the specific FA I was referring to.
> 
> I do hope you are enjoying this as much as I am; nothing is as energizing as being forced to document my opinions!


I am a geophysicist not a nutritionist, so you have an unfair advantage over me, but it is fun anyway. The body does convert ALA to both EPA and DHA (Omega-3: ALA intakes enough for EPA/DPA levels for non-fish eaters?*) and ALA is available from plant sources so I feel that I have a counter example to your claim that the only sources are animal derived. How efficiently this happens seems to be a matter of some debate.

*American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
November 2010, Volume 92, Number 5, pp 1040-1051
A.A. Welch et al.

PS They seem to have a typo in the title of the article I referenced. In the title they call it DPA but the article clearly is discussing DHA.


----------



## TundraGreen

So far we, at least two of us, have been discussing whether or not humans have to eat animals. Maybe we should have a discussion about how much better off the world would be if we didn't, eat animals that is.


----------



## mickisue1

Heh.

I would love to discuss that topic. My beliefs are not as black and white as you might think.

But it's far off the thread topic, and really, the forum, as well.

Perhaps over a cerveza next winter?


----------



## PieGrande

*I agree...*



Isla Verde said:


> Wouldn't that be nice . . . .


I do not want to bug you on this. Once a person makes it clear they have made up their mind, it is uncool to keep on them. Whether religion or diet. But, what we are trying to tell everyone is the low carb diet can indeed put most people back to the weight they had in their 20's, assuming that was a good thing at the time. 

My son and I were both at 220 when he was in med school and had knee problems. I was not especially fat for a 60 something American man, but I was in the usual weak condition of the 'normal' obese. He tried several diets, and they didn't work. He went on Atkins, and got down to 160. In UAE, he runs 7 miles at 125 degrees heat. He is 36. There is no reason to gain weight when you get older. Part or our misinformation is getting heavy is just part of getting old. For example the expression Middle Age Spread.

I am hypoglycemic, I first passed out back in 1958 in gym class after eating a candy bar at lunch. So, I lose weight slowly. I am only back to 175 and I have been at it for several years. I plan on trying to get back to the same 160. And, with no hunger at all.

We have been inundated with wrong information for most of our lives. There are all sorts of diets of every type, almost all do not work, at least not on a long term basis. And, they are not usually based on human physiology.

Low carb is based on how the human body processes carbs; protein; and fat. Carbs go to glucose, which induces insulin which does all sorts of bad things. The most diabolical thing insulin does is make you hungry again. When insulin is in the blood, glucose is deposited in various body parts including your cardiovascular system. When there is no insulin in the blood, fat is removed from where it was.

Fat is processed by a different method and involves different chemicals. it can be converted in modest quantities to glucose by the liver to provide what the brain needs.

Of course, success depends on discipline and motivation. I have very strong self-discipline, and I am highly motivated. The stronger I feel, the more motivated I am. The diet is not faith based, but people who totally doubt it will not stick with it.


----------



## PieGrande

One of the many myths is that a calorie is a calorie. This is also not based on science. Calories are measured in a closed container. The food items are put in, and electric heat burns the food. Total heat output is compared to the easily measured amount of electricity used, and the difference is the calories of the food.

But, the human body does not literally burn the food. As I have said, it processes different elements by totally different means, and that difference means there is a big difference between eating a fat diet vs. a carb diet.


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## FHBOY

:focus:

Folks, can we get back to the affects noticed by a move to Mexico, rather than a discussion on meat v. veggies, HDL v LDL, Atkins....

All of it has been interesting (well not for me - yes I'll admit y'all lost me after the second post on diet, not relevant to Mexico) but what does all of it have to do with this Forum?

I don't comment on thread content - it is not my place to limit discussion however well intentioned this diversion was meant, it is a bit off topic, yes?

You all have great insight into nutrition - but I'll take my life counting laughs and giggles, not calories and cholesterol. Life it too &%$(@ short - find something and enjoy it!

Sorry for the rant - must be the cervesa! Darn I love it here in Ajijic!


----------



## TundraGreen

FHBOY said:


> :focus:
> 
> Folks, can we get back to the affects noticed by a move to Mexico, rather than a discussion on meat v. veggies, HDL v LDL, Atkins....
> 
> All of it has been interesting (well not for me - yes I'll admit y'all lost me after the second post on diet, not relevant to Mexico) but what does all of it have to do with this Forum?
> 
> I don't comment on thread content - it is not my place to limit discussion however well intentioned this diversion was meant, it is a bit off topic, yes?
> 
> You all have great insight into nutrition - but I'll take my life counting laughs and giggles, not calories and cholesterol. Life it too &%$(@ short - find something and enjoy it!
> 
> Sorry for the rant - must be the cervesa! Darn I love it here in Ajijic!


I figured MickiSue1 and I probably went off on a tangent that would lose some people, however this thread started with a post about Atkins and health and Mexico, so I think, in general, we have stayed on topic better than most threads do actually.


----------



## PieGrande

*Living forever requires health*



FHBOY said:


> :focus:
> 
> Folks, can we get back to the affects noticed by a move to Mexico, rather than a discussion on meat v. veggies, HDL v LDL, Atkins....
> 
> All of it has been interesting (well not for me - yes I'll admit y'all lost me after the second post on diet, not relevant to Mexico) but what does all of it have to do with this Forum?
> 
> I don't comment on thread content - it is not my place to limit discussion however well intentioned this diversion was meant, it is a bit off topic, yes?
> 
> You all have great insight into nutrition - but I'll take my life counting laughs and giggles, not calories and cholesterol. Life it too &%$(@ short - find something and enjoy it!
> 
> Sorry for the rant - must be the cervesa! Darn I love it here in Ajijic!


I suggest reading the title again. To live forever requires good health, which is why the talk about diet. So, I for one do not feel it is off topic. And, on these low carb diets, one does not spend much time counting calories nor cholesterol. You made that up, right?

This is a case of different folks with different views. Those of us who have seen our lives dramatically improved with a low carb diet do think it is relevant to a good life.

I think, though, that I have made my view clear, those who want to suffer major illnesses and infirmities caused by wrong diets in their retirement years certainly have that right. Please carry on.


----------



## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> I think, though, that I have made my view clear, those who want to suffer major illnesses and infirmities caused by wrong diets in their retirement years certainly have that right. Please carry on.


Come on, PG, get off your high horse. Congratulations on having found a way of eating that works for you, but to say that those who have not jumped on the low carb bandwagon want to "suffer major illnesses and infirmities" is condescending, self-righteous and not worthy of you.


----------



## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> Come on, PG, get off your high horse. Congratulations on having found a way of eating that works for you, but to say that those who have not jumped on the low carb bandwagon want to "suffer major illnesses and infirmities" is condescending, self-righteous and not worthy of you.


The saying goes, "There is nothing worse than a reformed _______" [fill in your vice]. The points on healthy diet are well intentioned, but to get on a soapbox as a advocate and suggest that we who aren't following some advice or other are doomed is a bit melodramatic. PG, baby, you've found something great, and have shared it, and even I will come back to this thread in the future, but c'mon man, lighten up!


----------



## mickisue1

"A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still"

I don't know who said that; It's been ascribed to Shakespeare, Sir Walter Raleigh and Ben Franklin. 

Probably others. But it's true enough, isn't it?


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> The saying goes, "There is nothing worse than a reformed _______" [fill in your vice]. The points on healthy diet are well intentioned, but to get on a soapbox as a advocate and suggest that we who aren't following some advice or other are doomed is a bit melodramatic. PG, baby, you've found something great, and have shared it, and even I will come back to this thread in the future, but c'mon man, lighten up!


I've never smoked and have a low tolerance for second-hand cigarette smoke, but I don't go crazy while in the presence of someone who is puffing away. On the other hand, friends of mine who are ex-smokers . . . !


----------



## La Osita

So, let's put that in our pipes and smoke it!!

On another note... I just read an interesting NPR article stating that recent research being done shows that bilingual adults _"maintain better executive functioning later in life than monolingual people. That extra "cognitive reserve" may allow the brain to better cope with the damage caused by dementia, thereby delaying symptoms_."

This is nice to know, and so I hope that the brain damage it feels like I am incurring attempting to learn that second language will rectify itself once I am truly bilingual!!!


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## mickisue1

Along those lines...

There is a longitudinal study being done by the University of MN, measuring the effects of everything from diet to doing crossword puzzles on the longevity and ability to retain cognitive ability in the elderly.

They have been studying a community of elderly nuns for several decades.

As itnavell noted, making your brain work on a regular basis gives you higher levels of reserves, when dementia comes.

As it appears that dementia, for most of us, is a combination of the nervous system damage of Alzheimer's and the circulatory damage of atherosclerosis, shoving information in there as much as we can, for as long as we can, not only makes life more fun, but the fun lasts longer.


----------



## TundraGreen

mickisue1 said:


> Along those lines...
> 
> There is a longitudinal study being done by the University of MN, measuring the effects of everything from diet to doing crossword puzzles on the longevity and ability to retain cognitive ability in the elderly.
> 
> They have been studying a community of elderly nuns for several decades.
> 
> As itnavell noted, making your brain work on a regular basis gives you higher levels of reserves, when dementia comes.
> 
> As it appears that dementia, for most of us, is a combination of the nervous system damage of Alzheimer's and the circulatory damage of atherosclerosis, shoving information in there as much as we can, for as long as we can, not only makes life more fun, but the fun lasts longer.


As if doing crossword puzzles and studying spanish isn't enough, now I have to become a nun as well? Oy vey.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> As if doing crossword puzzles and studying spanish isn't enough, now I have to become a nun as well? Oy vey.


Not if you're Jewish. Instead you can begin an intensive study of the Torah and Talmud which would certainly give your brain cells a workout!


----------



## RVGRINGO

I once feared 'dementia' but now I can't remember what the word means.


----------



## mickisue1

I'm pretty sure you can skip the nun part.

At least, having been raised in that church, I certainly wouldn't recommend going that far.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Not if you're Jewish. Instead you can begin an intensive study of the Torah and Talmud which would certainly give your brain cells a workout!


I think the Jews would not be any more receptive than the nuns to adopting me.


----------



## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I think the Jews would not be any more receptive than the nuns to adopting me.


If there's some reason you might feel squeamish about converting, you could still immerse yourself in the study of our ancient wisdom to keep your brain cells in good working order.


----------



## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> If there's some reason you might feel squeamish about converting, you could still immerse yourself in the study of our ancient wisdom to keep your brain cells in good working order.


...or you could go the Madonna route and study Kabbalah - Jewish mysticism - that no one really understands but very learned and scholarly.


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## La Osita

I actually worked at understanding Kabbalah at one time. I got lost. Any suggestions Isla Verde?


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> I actually worked at understanding Kabbalah at one time. I got lost. Any suggestions Isla Verde?


Kabbalah is too esoteric for me. The Kabbalah that people like Madonna have gotten into with the help of a Hollywood-based guru is probably "Kabbalah light" for people who want instant enlightenment instead of the kind that comes after years of study and meditation.


----------



## La Osita

Well, no surprise I guess in a world focused on superficial 'instant gratification'. Doesn't get the brain cells fired up either.

In anything I've ever truly studied with focus and intent, I've discovered that the more I learn, the less I know. And that gets the brain cells cranking. Wonderful isn't it!


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Well, no surprise I guess in a world focused on superficial 'instant gratification'. Doesn't get the brain cells fired up either.
> 
> In anything I've ever truly studied with focus and intent, I've discovered that the more I learn, the less I know. And that gets the brain cells cranking. Wonderful isn't it!


For some reason this version of Kabbalah has become trendy among the Hollywood jet-set. From what I've read about Kabbalah, without having ever studied it for myself, it's a serious form of mysticism based on meditating on the meaning and form of certain Hebrew letters. Like all real mysticism, it's a way to communicate directly with God, quite a spooky concept if you think about it. Traditionally, its study was reserved for serious scholars (no doubt all men) over the age of 40 It was thought to be too dangerous for amateurs and those under 40 to experiment with.


----------



## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> For some reason this version of Kabbalah has become trendy among the Hollywood jet-set. From what I've read about Kabbalah, without having ever studied it for myself, it's a serious form of mysticism based on meditating on the meaning and form of certain Hebrew letters. Like all real mysticism, it's a way to communicate directly with God, quite a spooky concept if you think about it. Traditionally, its study was reserved for serious scholars (no doubt all men) over the age of 40 It was thought to be too dangerous for amateurs and those under 40 to experiment with.


During my younger days worked hard for a year to try and get into Kabbalah, it was the crowd I was hanging out with did-like a study group. It stymied me at every turn. I found some things I understood, some things that actually did enlighten me, but the rest was just too esoteric, so I walked away from it. That is why when it is advocated by such scholars as Madonna, I wonder if she studied the same texts as I tried to.

I word on "senior study". When you are a senior, one of the joys is that you can fulfill a lot of life's "want to's" instead of "have to's" and thereby choose what you want to use the non decaying parts  of you brain for. Erma Bombeck has a new book and I heard her interviewed on, where else, NPR. She says there are things she just will not bother to learn, twitter, Facebook, how to program a DVR, etc etc. One of my things is not going back to study Kabbalah, it just doesn't matter. Continuing to study and use your mind is very, very important it needs exercise, but it is a joy to be able to choose what you want to study.


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## ronb172

Brother TG, it's just her/his opinion. Lighten up...


----------



## edgeee

disclaimer: This is all only my opinions and i own no property, so sue me at your own risk.

i love forums. i naturally like to study people and life in general.
forums allow the free exchange of ideas without the risk of bloodshed, tho it can get ugly.
here's something that is almost a fact.
expressing ones opinions in a forum is the fastest and best way to find someone willing to disagree with you.
and i think i know why. my friend Professor Crapfree says it goes like this.

the thoughts and actions of any human are primarily determined by two things:
1. what one believes in and believes to be true.
2. what one cares about and HOW MUCH they care.

this leads us to make choices that others disagree with. they have different beliefs and concerns.
this leads to our own concern, on some level, that we may be wrong, and that won't do.
in order to affirm our own opinions, based on our beliefs and concerns, we have a need to convince them they are actually the ones who are wrong.
nobody wants to be the one who is wrong. (one of the biggest deterents to learning new things.)

the best example i know is organized religion.
as far as i know, they all claim to be the only 'right' religion, so how many of them are correct?
to the best of my knowledge, they all teach that it is a duty to convert other lost souls.
i am spiritual, and that's all i will say about religion.

it's hard to prove such a thing, but the theory seems to hold water pretty well.
feel free to disagree, i could be wrong. but i'm that rare individual who wants to know if i am.
and i really don't care who corrects me, i just want the benefit of shedding one more illusion.

so conflict can be a good thing if you truly want it to be.
provided of course you have the proper understanding of what constitutes good v. evil, right v. wrong and true v. false.
:focus:
i belive getting all this out makes me feel better, so i may live longer 
and i do care about that.

the last song released by Hank Williams before he died in the backseat of a cadillac on the way to a performance was,
_I'll never Get Out of This World Alive._ he was 29 years old.


----------



## pappabee

edgeee said:


> disclaimer: This is all only my opinions and i own no property, so sue me at your own risk.
> 
> i love forums. i naturally like to study people and life in general.
> forums allow the free exchange of ideas without the risk of bloodshed, tho it can get ugly.
> here's something that is almost a fact.
> expressing ones opinions in a forum is the fastest and best way to find someone willing to disagree with you.
> and i think i know why. my friend Professor Crapfree says it goes like this.
> 
> the thoughts and actions of any human are primarily determined by two things:
> 1. what one believes in and believes to be true.
> 2. what one cares about and HOW MUCH they care.
> 
> this leads us to make choices that others disagree with. they have different beliefs and concerns.
> this leads to our own concern, on some level, that we may be wrong, and that won't do.
> in order to affirm our own opinions, based on our beliefs and concerns, we have a need to convince them they are actually the ones who are wrong.
> nobody wants to be the one who is wrong. (one of the biggest deterents to learning new things.)
> 
> the best example i know is organized religion.
> as far as i know, they all claim to be the only 'right' religion, so how many of them are correct?
> to the best of my knowledge, they all teach that it is a duty to convert other lost souls.
> i am spiritual, and that's all i will say about religion.
> 
> it's hard to prove such a thing, but the theory seems to hold water pretty well.
> feel free to disagree, i could be wrong. but i'm that rare individual who wants to know if i am.
> and i really don't care who corrects me, i just want the benefit of shedding one more illusion.
> 
> so conflict can be a good thing if you truly want it to be.
> provided of course you have the proper understanding of what constitutes good v. evil, right v. wrong and true v. false.
> :focus:
> i belive getting all this out makes me feel better, so i may live longer
> and i do care about that.
> 
> the last song released by Hank Williams before he died in the backseat of a cadillac on the way to a performance was,
> _I'll never Get Out of This World Alive._ he was 29 years old.


I would suggest that you study Jewish teaching before you make some wide and far afield statements such as "they all teach that it is a duty to convert other lost souls."

Judaism does not consider ANY soul to be lost, that is a Christian belief. Also Jewish people do not 'go out and try to find people to convert'. As a matter of fact as part of the conversion process the Rabbi must ask the 'convert' three times if they are sure of what they are doing. 

After having said that I'd like to give you a thought on religion. To paraphrase Karl Marx, Religion is a group of laws set up by society in which they hope to govern themselves. The Old Testament of the Bible is an allegory. (a story written to try to understand what happened). CNN was not present at the first born nor was Walter Cronkite at the parting of the red sea. 

That should give you something to think about. Happy dreams!!!


----------



## edgeee

*But my my point would be...*

thank you papabee, let me explain. i was raised in the river bottoms of the Little Wabash river,
and the first exposure i had to any sort of religion was talk of tent revivals. never went, but they were there.
around age ten when i learned i could get out of some work on the farm by going to summer bible school i did.
i couldn't even tell you what religion it was, but i still know the words to 'this little light of mine'.
(my home town was and still has a population of 500, tho that may be inflated, - they can't afford a new sign - and i lived 5 miles from town.)
at age 16 i graduated high school and still did not even know what 'jewish' meant. actually i still wonder at times.

this is why i used 'as far as i know', because i know how little i know.
it's a good way to solicit the opinions of others for consideration.
would it be wrong also that they do not consider their faith the only correct one? i think that one flies.

and 'duty' was probably a poor choice of words, but the word mission sure pops up a lot.

however, i have no desire to debate religion. my point is that Professor Crapfree is on to something.
not to be nasty, but aren't you avoiding the thrust of what i wrote about.

a thread devoted to living a long and 'good' life became more involved with opinions on how people should live.
i merely attempted to show why it is always thus. religion is not germane, other than a good example of why this occurs.

i have enough conflict in my life already without seeking more, but i stated my OPINION simply to express what i believe.
conflict is a major cause of stress, and stress is not condusive to good health, ergo bad if you want to live long and happy.
my understanding of this has greatly reduced the stress in my life, so i thought it might be helpful to others.

i would very much like to know YOUR opinion of my explanation for why people act the way they do, as stated above.


----------



## terrybahena

Religion is for people who don't want to go to hell.
Spirituality is for people who've already been there.
I like this. I define myself as spiritual; there is much to be learned from organized anything, then customize to one's liking & comfort.


----------



## edgeee

like i said before, this is about how to live forever or die trying.
religion is only relevant in certain narrow ways, such as a possible 'afterlife' and that's a stretch,
tho religious faith can be a great comfort if it is. for some it is not.

i have avoided numerous arguments and fights over the years by adopting a simple rule.
i will not discuss certain things with people i don't know well.
there are three things on that list:
Politics, Religion and Sex.

politicians have an answer for everything, but it's always the same answer.
religious people don't have any answers, they exist for the eternal question.
and i don't like to brag.

isn't anyone going to tell me my professor friend is wrong?


----------



## Quetza

I'm finding this thread very interesting to read and (with all due respect to the senior netizens ) quite amusing too. I still have a long way to go before receiving my INAPAM card but I'll be taking notes from everyone's posts here for future reference 

@FHBOY That's one of the things that I don't really understand. Sure, I'd love to have more time to study things that interest me, but I've never been in a position of having to learn something that I dislike strongly enough to not want to be learning it... maybe with more time and experience I'll find my share of "do-not-want" subjects... This thread is making me feel like a baby. xD


@terrybahena: I agree with you.  Most organized religions have taken rituals or knowledge from other religions and spiritual practices (which are not the same thing) over the centuries and adapted them for their own means, so I think we have the right to learn from them and then use whatever spiritual tools we need. 

That said, I dislike these light versions of complex and often antique spiritual practices that have been popping up lately. If someone wants to teach any of them or use the techniques in their own classes or practices, imo they should have respect for the sources of their knowledge and not sell them as cheap imitations of the real thing (as a Reiki and Meditation teacher and someone who has been around people practicing Kabbalah and all sorts of spiritual paths for some time now, I feel quite strongly about this  ) I feel like these teachers are ripping their students off.


Aaand, :focus:, since there's been a lot of comments on health issues, would any of the DF expats be interested in going for a walk or gather in some park or forest? (Like, ummm... Bosque de Tlalpan, Bosque de Aragón, etc.) In Bosque de Tlalpan, i.e. we could have a "field trip" to the top and then undo all the effort eating in the quesadillas place! 

p.s. Sorry if my post is messy, I have no dictionaries at hand right now to spell check my orthography :confused2:


----------



## Isla Verde

> Aaand, , since there's been a lot of comments on health issues, would any of the DF expats be interested in going for a walk or gather in some park or forest? (Like, ummm... Bosque de Tlalpan, Bosque de Aragón, etc.) In Bosque de Tlalpan, i.e. we could have a "field trip" to the top and then undo all the effort eating in the quesadillas place!


I'd be interested in taking a walk in some leafy place as long as it didn't involve clambering up rocky slopes, even if there's a great quesadilla place at the top!


----------



## edgeee

i have found that when i don't know how to spell a word i just google it and the right way pops up.
but is there anyway to convince everyone that all this religious discussion is hurting the thrust of this thread?

huummm, i wonder, would the famous quote from Groucho,
"I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members."
apply to churches?
forget i said that.


----------



## Quetza

Isla Verde said:


> I'd be interested in taking a walk in some leafy place as long as it didn't involve clambering up rocky slopes, even if there's a great quesadilla place at the top!


But where is the adventure without that? 

The great thing about that forest (I think it shows that I'm in love with the place) is that there are paved roads and dirt tracks of all sizes, and also shacks to rest so you can choose the kind of path that suits your mood. 

In Aragón, the terrain is pretty flat but I haven't been there in a long time so I don't know what kind of fun they have apart from the biig park, lake and the zoo. There are other parks with a zoo or greenhouses in the city.


@edgeee, I would do that if I hadn't decided to stop using google services. I usually have English to French, Italian, German & Spanish Dictionary - WordReference.com open to check my spelling and grammar but that takes time that I don't have right now, so I hope you all forgive me for any mistakes. :tongue1:


----------



## pappabee

edgeee said:


> thank you papabee, let me explain. i was raised in the river bottoms of the Little Wabash river,
> and the first exposure i had to any sort of religion was talk of tent revivals. never went, but they were there.
> around age ten when i learned i could get out of some work on the farm by going to summer bible school i did.
> i couldn't even tell you what religion it was, but i still know the words to 'this little light of mine'.
> (my home town was and still has a population of 500, tho that may be inflated, - they can't afford a new sign - and i lived 5 miles from town.)
> at age 16 i graduated high school and still did not even know what 'jewish' meant. actually i still wonder at times.
> 
> this is why i used 'as far as i know', because i know how little i know.
> it's a good way to solicit the opinions of others for consideration.
> would it be wrong also that they do not consider their faith the only correct one? i think that one flies.
> 
> and 'duty' was probably a poor choice of words, but the word mission sure pops up a lot.
> 
> however, i have no desire to debate religion. my point is that Professor Crapfree is on to something.
> not to be nasty, but aren't you avoiding the thrust of what i wrote about.
> 
> a thread devoted to living a long and 'good' life became more involved with opinions on how people should live.
> i merely attempted to show why it is always thus. religion is not germane, other than a good example of why this occurs.
> 
> i have enough conflict in my life already without seeking more, but i stated my OPINION simply to express what i believe.
> conflict is a major cause of stress, and stress is not condusive to good health, ergo bad if you want to live long and happy.
> my understanding of this has greatly reduced the stress in my life, so i thought it might be helpful to others.
> 
> i would very much like to know YOUR opinion of my explanation for why people act the way they do, as stated above.


I'm sorry but your response to my post has left me very confused. My post had only two points. The first one being that not all religions are out to find new members and the second one was just a sample of some thoughts on religion. Nothing more.:confused2:

I refuse to debate, discuss or explain religion on any blog due to it's limit of expression. We can not read the body language. We can not see the expressions as we speak. We can not hear the intonation of the voice. Just too many missing parts to communication. Not for an area that can be so very delicate to many people. :clap2:


----------



## Quetza

Yup, discussing religion is very tricky even in person and it's highly dangerous material for forums, it very often ends in lots of deleted posts.


----------



## pappabee

Quetza said:


> But where is the adventure without that?
> 
> The great thing about that forest (I think it shows that I'm in love with the place) is that there are paved roads and dirt tracks of all sizes, and also shacks to rest so you can choose the kind of path that suits your mood.
> 
> In Aragón, the terrain is pretty flat but I haven't been there in a long time so I don't know what kind of fun they have apart from the biig park, lake and the zoo. There are other parks with a zoo or greenhouses in the city.
> 
> 
> @edgeee, I would do that if I hadn't decided to stop using google services. I usually have English to French, Italian, German & Spanish Dictionary - WordReference.com open to check my spelling and grammar but that takes time that I don't have right now, so I hope you all forgive me for any mistakes. :tongue1:


There is a great little program called "iespell" that works right with IE9.


----------



## edgeee

*I don't know how to spell kwit*

this is getting silly. my mistake for choosing poorly. i'll try again.
after this time there will be no more mention of the R word.

my friend Professor Crapfree says it goes like this.

the thoughts and actions of any human is primarily determined by two things:
1. what one believes in and believes to be true.
2. what one cares about and HOW MUCH they care.

this leads us to make choices that others disagree with. they have different beliefs and concerns.
this leads to our own concern, on some level, that we may be wrong, and that won't do.
in order to affirm our own opinions, based on our beliefs and concerns, we have a need to convince them they are actually the ones who are wrong.
nobody wants to be the one who is wrong. (one of the biggest deterents to learning new things.)

regarding items 1 and 2, a good example would be sports fans. they become 'fans' by caring so much.
artist of all kinds, successful business executives, even mothers and teachers are a result
of 1&2. this is the difference between a 'good' mother or a bad one.
(i have a bad feeling - is using mothers for an example another poor choice?)

the speeder and the cop writing the ticket both do so because of 1 & 2.

i'll stipulate it if you will.

it's what follows that's tricky.

in my opinion, the urge or need to be 'right' makes us adviserial to naysayers.
we do it, to some degree, out of fear of being wrong.
if we shed the acrimony of being wrong, and accept the lesson that comes with it, we feel better.
people hate failure but they shouldn't. it's part of living, and when you see it that way,
your blood pressure goes down.
*that's all i'm saying, and it's only an opinion, but it works for me.*


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## Isla Verde

Quetza said:


> But where is the adventure without that?
> 
> The great thing about that forest (I think it shows that I'm in love with the place) is that there are paved roads and dirt tracks of all sizes, and also shacks to rest so you can choose the kind of path that suits your mood.
> 
> In Aragón, the terrain is pretty flat but I haven't been there in a long time so I don't know what kind of fun they have apart from the biig park, lake and the zoo. There are other parks with a zoo or greenhouses in the city.


What could be an adventure for you might turn out to be overly strenuous exercise for me. I prefer to enjoy my outings in nature on surfaces which are more or less level, though gentle slopes are fine too.


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## Belizegirl

In my opinion, it was a bad using mothers as an example. I listen to my children and have conversations with them and appreciate them forming their own opinions and beliefs without putting mine on them, just having an open dialog. There are many wonderful teachers who do the same.

In addition, you forgot fathers.


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## Isla Verde

Belizegirl said:


> In my opinion, it was a bad using mothers as an example. I listen to my children and have conversations with them and appreciate them forming their own opinions and beliefs without putting mine on them, just having an open dialog. There are many wonderful teachers who do the same.
> 
> In addition, you forgot fathers.


Which post are you referring to?


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## edgeee

thank you belizegirl.

mothers, fathers, teachers, firemen, it's all the same.
my point is that those who believe in what they do, and care a lot about it are better at it than those who don't .

i would find it hard to refute that.
but i'm really talking about what that leads to.
how disagreement is a knee-jerk reaction for some people, and why.
and what that does to our emotional and physical state.
and how the fear of being wrong or failing is counterproductive.

since this thread is 'live forever or die trying', the health aspects of reducing inner turmoil - by looking at things this way - helps both the mental and physical well-being, ergo better odds for a longer and happier life. and more learning to.


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