# Alternatives for heating.



## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Heya, question about heating here.

The house we'll be in won't have central heating but has double-glazed windows. We've got aircon that heats as well, but we're looking for cheaper alternatives.

What would you recommend?

We've been playing with the idea of getting a hot and cold Dyson heater but we aren't sure how efficient and good it is yet. Does anyone by any chance have experience with them?

Another idea would be infra-red heaters but we know little about them. They seem expensive but presumably expensive to buy.

Also, does anyone know what/how thermal heaters are? We also saw this thermal heater on Worten, but we got no idea where it's any good or not since we can't seem to find anything similar to that on English websites. Here's the link: https://www.worten.es/inicio/grande...-fagor-rei-1003ip.html?origen=sys#_additional

Thanks guys, open to ideas.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Sirtravelot said:


> Heya, question about heating here.
> 
> The house we'll be in won't have central heating but has double-glazed windows. We've got aircon that heats as well, but we're looking for cheaper alternatives.
> 
> ...


The thermal heater is only 1000w so I wouldn't have thought it would be terribly effective especially in a larger room. We tried an oil filled radiator but even on the 2kw setting it was useless in our sitting room.

We have an infra red bathroom heater and that is fine in a small space. It doesn't seem expensive to run but then it's only used for quite short periods.

We still use a butano gas heater and find that the most effective, although with double glazing you might get condensation problems.

A couple of people we know have those flat panel wall heaters in every room (maybe more than one needed in a larger room) and they seem OK as background heating, and fairly inexpensive to run.

Could you fit a pellet stove? Someone we know has one and the house is warm as toast, the pellets are easier to store than wood, although the stoves are fairly expensive to buy.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We are looking into a stove or two for our new place, not convinced which one just yet but the layout will be good for it.
At least they are fairly good.

Also it's likely we will put those flat panel ones in the kids rooms and see how they work out.

Other than that I can't give you an idea on what works good because last winter nothing we had worked great apart from a small electric fan which cost loads to run.
The oil one wasn't much chop at all.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> The thermal heater is only 1000w so I wouldn't have thought it would be terribly effective especially in a larger room. We tried an oil filled radiator but even on the 2kw setting it was useless in our sitting room.
> 
> We have an infra red bathroom heater and that is fine in a small space. It doesn't seem expensive to run but then it's only used for quite short periods.
> 
> ...


Flat panel wall heaters? Could you link me to what they are please? Not sure what that is. Are those the infra-red heaters?

Also, is the butano gas from Calor Gas?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Infra-red heaters heat only the objects/people the infra-red rays hit - they do not heat the air they pass through so they take a long while to warm an average room since the objects/people in the room have to be warmed first before they re-radiate warmth by conduction and convection to warm the air in the room.

The wheel about gas heaters use butano (butane) similar but not the same as "Calor" gas which is propane. One of the problems of butane is that its ability to convert to a gas is greatly reduced below 5°C. The other main problem is they give off a lot of condensation. The 'no visible flame' (catalytic) type are very prone to gathering dust in the "wooly" substance and can easily pack up after a year. The open flame type with the old fashioned clay burners don't seem to suffer from this problem. If there is incomplete combustion, toxic products such as carbon monoxide and nitrogen dioxide form. If ventilation is poor, the carbon dioxide level in a room will begin to increase, and prevent the release of carbon dioxide from the blood to the room air far before the decrease of available oxygen (or carbon monoxide forming) becomes a problem. These effects are reduced but not entirely eliminated if the fire is fixed and flued.

Wood pellet stoves are often efficient and cost effective but the initial cost of installation needs to be taken into account when comparing with the running costs of other means of heating.

Log-burners can prove to be the most economical if you have a plentiful and cheap supply of logs. Again a good sound, and clean flue is necessary to avoid problems with the byproducts of combustion.

Our situation:
We considered having a pellet-burner having four inhabited floors in the house and not easy to heat but the cost of the initial installation including the pipework and radiators would have been in the region of €15k with a running cost of approximately €2,500 p.a. We already have a log-burner that heats the lounge with ducted hot air the the two bedrooms above plus a bleed from the flue cavity feeding the top floor. Logs, cut to size, delivered and stacked in our wood store cost about €110 per tonne and our average consumption is about 1½tonnes per season. We currently have about 4 t in the wood store, enough for 2-2½ years.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Wow, 15K?

We just want to convert a fireplace for a stove burner for the main living area so none of the pipes and so forth.

These are the type of wall panel things we want for the other rooms.
Econo-Heat | Low consumption wall panel heaters

In AKI they are around 70 euro.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Pazcat said:


> Wow, 15K?
> 
> We just want to convert a fireplace for a stove burner for the main living area so none of the pipes and so forth.
> 
> ...



Fantastic, thank you. I will look into it further.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Just looking at reviews for those econo-plates. They seemed to be mixed, but mostly positive. They don't heat, but keep the heat, so ideal for bedrooms it seems. Some say it's fantastic, others say it's disappointing. Some say they're efficient, others say they aren't. 

I think we'll try one out first.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Pazcat said:


> Wow, 15K?
> 
> We just want to convert a fireplace for a stove burner for the main living area so none of the pipes and so forth.
> 
> ...



Just looking at pellet stoves just now from Aki. Our house is 100 square meters (lounge below, 3 bedrooms above). We would have to get pipework installed as well, but probably just along a wall to the outside. Question: Since Spain loves planning permission, would we need planning permission for this?

Aki seems to do the installation, according to the website, and pellet stoves start at 695 euros.

Just wondering if they do pellet deliveries?

And if that's not enough, we can install small pannel heaters in the bedrooms.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Air con is the cheapest & almost instant.
Check heat pump costs/efficiency online to get a better idea.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Some good advice already. 

We always used a butano room heater and never experienced condensation problems but ours were old townhouses with very adequate  ventiation. It could well be a problem in a well draught-proofed modern building. 

Don't be fooled by advertising or testimonial claims for the 'efficiency' of different kinds of electric heating. To produce a kilowatt of heat will cost more or less the same whatever type of heater you are using. 

If you have a very tall room (we did once) it is worth considering radiant heaters (which heat you) rather than convector heaters (which heat the roof space).

I've no experience of them but aircon units used as heaters are supposed to be pretty economical.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

jimenato said:


> If you have a very tall room (we did once) it is worth considering radiant heaters (which heat you) rather than convector heaters (which heat the roof space).
> l.


Or install a ceiling fan (sucking the air upwards) to circulate the warm air 'trapped' at ceiling level down the walls.


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## dmret (Mar 12, 2013)

*House insurance*



Sirtravelot said:


> Just looking at pellet stoves just now from Aki. Our house is 100 square meters (lounge below, 3 bedrooms above). We would have to get pipework installed as well, but probably just along a wall to the outside. Question: Since Spain loves planning permission, would we need planning permission for this?
> 
> Aki seems to do the installation, according to the website, and pellet stoves start at 695 euros.
> 
> ...


Just a thought. Would you need some form of certificate of worthiness to be supplied by an installer/sweep for a log fire stove? I am aware that the UK isn't Spain, but it came as a bit of a shock to be told that the absence of such a certificate could nullify house insurance if there was a chimney fire. I wonder if this could be similarly required in Spain? As I have said, just a thought.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

That is a good point, in Belgium our neighbours chimney exploded one night and and while it was pretty impressive it left him with a a huge bill as you are supposed to get a certificate on a yearly basis when you have it routinely cleaned. 
No certificate, no insurance.
It's a sensible precaution but I wonder like dmret if that is common here too?
Probably is my guess at least where insurance is involved.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pazcat said:


> That is a good point, in Belgium our neighbours chimney exploded one night and and while it was pretty impressive it left him with a a huge bill as you are supposed to get a certificate on a yearly basis when you have it routinely cleaned.
> No certificate, no insurance.
> It's a sensible precaution but I wonder like dmret if that is common here too?
> Probably is my guess at least where insurance is involved.


Just checked my insurance and there's no mention of it - hmmmmm. But then there's no mention of a gas certificate either.

I suppose I should ask but then how many other things should I be asking about as well?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well I just checked a chimney sweep service and they will provide you with a certificate of service as well as one that the installed stove meets with European standards so I would guess without a recent one you may have a tough time explaining it to the insurance company.

Not sure about gas.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Well I just checked a chimney sweep service and they will provide you with a certificate of service as well as one that the installed stove meets with European standards so I would guess without a recent one you may have a tough time explaining it to the insurance company.
> 
> Not sure about gas.


With regard to gas, I went into that in some depth once when somebody raised it on a forum. My insurance policy definitely doesn't say anything about having to have a gas safety certificate.

The safety certificate which we get every five years does, however, say that it provides its own insurance which includes cover for any damage or injury caused to a third party (eg damage to neighbouring properties) in the event of an explosion or fire.

A safety check has to be carried out before you can get a gas supply contract (they made us instal a ventilation grille in our front door).

I know some people just go and buy gas bottles from a small local shop without having a contract, hence probably no safety check or 5-yearly certificates, but I think that's very foolish. An old lady who lived close to us was very badly burned, and died a few days later, after a gas explosion in her house.


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## Melissa58275 (Apr 14, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Wow, 15K?
> 
> We just want to convert a fireplace for a stove burner for the main living area so none of the pipes and so forth.


Pazcat: My info may not be very helpful, since I'm still across the pond in the US. But I have a Harman pellet fireplace insert in an old disused fireplace and I love it. Cost me a bit over $5,000 for the stove, including installation of the needed flue liner in the old chimney (the key is that the existing chimney can accommodate the proper flue-liner). I buy one ton of pellets each fall in 40 lb. bags. Delivered, they cost about $250. I don't use the pellet stove for main heating...my house has steam radiators. But I keep the thermostat at about 15 degrees and use the pellet stove to warm the first floor to a more comfortable temperature where I usually spend my days. The model I have has a blower, so it acts as more than radiant heat. The only downside is that it is a bit loud. 

Don't know, of course, if this type of arrangement is available and at what cost in Spain. But it has been quite cost effective for me, even including the installation cost.

Out of curiousity. What about natural gas stoves in Spain? I also happen to have one of these in another part of my house and have been quite happy with it as well. In the past I had one which was "ventless", which isn't always allowed and means that you can't use it for more than a few hours a day, even where it is, lest you have a carbon monoxide problem. Now I have one which is direct vented to the outside (no chimney...just a pipe and vent through the wall). Both cost in the neighborhood of $4000, and the only installation expense was running the natural gas line. 

Are these sorts of things available in Spain? Seem like they'd be perfect.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Melissa58275 said:


> Out of curiousity. What about natural gas stoves in Spain? I also happen to have one of these in another part of my house and have been quite happy with it as well. In the past I had one which was "ventless", which isn't always allowed and means that you can't use it for more than a few hours a day, even where it is, lest you have a carbon monoxide problem. Now I have one which is direct vented to the outside (no chimney...just a pipe and vent through the wall). Both cost in the neighborhood of $4000, and the only installation expense was running the natural gas line.
> 
> Are these sorts of things available in Spain? Seem like they'd be perfect.


Natural gas is not very widely available in Spain, outside of the major cities. It is available along some of the coastal towns along the Costa del Sol now, but only to the most recently built properties.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Melissa58275 said:


> Pazcat: My info may not be very helpful, since I'm still across the pond in the US. But I have a Harman pellet fireplace insert in an old disused fireplace and I love it. Cost me a bit over $5,000 for the stove, including installation of the needed flue liner in the old chimney (the key is that the existing chimney can accommodate the proper flue-liner). I buy one ton of pellets each fall in 40 lb. bags. Delivered, they cost about $250. I don't use the pellet stove for main heating...my house has steam radiators. But I keep the thermostat at about 15 degrees and use the pellet stove to warm the first floor to a more comfortable temperature where I usually spend my days. The model I have has a blower, so it acts as more than radiant heat. The only downside is that it is a bit loud.
> 
> Don't know, of course, if this type of arrangement is available and at what cost in Spain. But it has been quite cost effective for me, even including the installation cost.
> 
> ...


We have to use bombonas which cost about €18 delivered. We use for cooking and hot water in the winter. The sun takes care of the hot water during the summer.


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## Melissa58275 (Apr 14, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> We have to use bombonas which cost about €18 delivered. We use for cooking and hot water in the winter. The sun takes care of the hot water during the summer.


Baldilocks...bombonas?
Please excuse the newbie questions....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Melissa58275 said:


> Baldilocks...bombonas?
> Please excuse the newbie questions....


It is a cylinder full of butane - can't remember the weight of gas but the cylinder, itself, usually weighs about 13-14 kg


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

When I was smal we had a gas fire on the wall of the lounge and I used to sit in front of it watching children's' tv. Despite the advent of piped gas here, I have never seen this type of gas fire for sale. We have a portable gas fire which serves the same purpose of providing fairly instant warmth at a reasonable price, but with so much condensation that last winter several interior doors would stick and mould starting growing around the windows. With nights below zero one doesn't want to air house much!

I looked into getting an insert in our fireplace for this winter and found loads of styles and prices, with pellet inserts available too, but none for gas. I wonder why?


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## Maureen47 (Mar 27, 2014)

Does anyone use their log burner to cook , the house we have bought has a log burner with an oven above with a thermostat , thought it may be useful for winter casseroles as well as heat ?


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## Melissa58275 (Apr 14, 2014)

Maureen...that sounds fabulous! Imagine a wood-burning oven for pizza, bread, etc. ! Yum!


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## villamarre (Oct 19, 2012)

Econo heat panels work really well and depending on the size of room will heat,we have in most rooms and leave on 24hrs a day as they are only 425W and with 14hrs cheap electric a day from Endesa they are V economical and unobtrusive as they have all been painted the same colour as the rooms they are in,there are often offers on the manufacturers website as well.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

villamarre said:


> Econo heat panels work really well and depending on the size of room will heat,we have in most rooms and leave on 24hrs a day as they are only 425W and with 14hrs cheap electric a day from Endesa they are V economical and unobtrusive as they have all been painted the same colour as the rooms they are in,there are often offers on the manufacturers website as well.


Using electricity means that which ever heating appliance you have 1 Kw of heating costs I unit. So 10 watt bulb runs for 10 hours for I Unit . a 425 watt heater runs for 2hours and 35 mins for 1 unit, a 3 bar (3KW) fire for 20 mins etc. A 425 W panel running 24 hours a day (assuming a thermostat does not cut in) costs 10.2 units per 24 hours, i.e. 306 units per month, and that is per heater.

If you are going to use electricity, air-conditioning with a heat pump is cheaper as you can get more energy out than you put in.


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## villamarre (Oct 19, 2012)

larryzx is correct except 10W bulb for 100 hours =1KWhour,AC is economical but depending on potencia contracted you may not be able to run too many whereas wafer panes are low energy.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

villamarre said:


> larryzx is correct except 10W bulb for 100 hours =1KWhour,AC is economical but depending on potencia contracted you may not be able to run too many whereas wafer panes are low energy.


Opps well spotted I meant to type a 100W bulb = 10 hours for 1 Unit.

The 425W example would cost me (Endesa) 43 euros per panel per month. (306 x 0.115 euros)


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## villamarre (Oct 19, 2012)

larryzx said:


> Opps well spotted I meant to type a 100W bulb = 10 hours for 1 Unit.
> 
> The 425W example would cost me (Endesa) 43 euros per panel per month. (306 x 0.115 euros)


why dont you change to their night rate as 14 hrs a day at unit cost od 0.0548 so good for heat in winter and AC iin summer tarriff is con horas discriminacion.


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