# Nervous American future expat



## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Hi, I wrote a few starter questions almost two years ago, but "the Spain topic" has reared its festive head once again. I could use some perspective....and hand holding. 

Basic facts: almost 47 year old couple, I'm American, wife is Spanish (and also a naturalized American). We've lived in the U.S. for almost 18 years, and my wife's parents are getting rather up in years and she's more than ready to return to Spain, at least for some years. (My parents are both gone). 

She was previously--15+ years back--a teacher there, and she is determined to "sit for" the competitive exam (_oposiciones_) this coming summer. Her plan (not our plan, *her* plan) is, if she gets offered a job due to that, to take the job and move back. Mostly likely the community of Madrid.

I previously asked about possibly doing a part-year life (like 4-6 months in Spain, then the remainder in the U.S.), but she seems uninterested in that...and it is also complicated and challenging. 

I'm nervous whenever I think about this possibility.  I've been to Spain maybe 10 times and more or less like it, but to live there year-round is something I'm not sure I'm up for. Yet I love my wife and I only think it is fair that I reciprocate and try to live with her in her country, help her emotionally support her aging folks, finally learn her language well, etc.

I have four basic worries:

*1. Cultural Boredom/Irritation.* I'm a person who would like to be involved with ideas, creativity, progressive rock music-making, vegan food (yes, I know there's a good scene in Madrid now, which is awesome) philosophy, technology, literature in English, etc., and although I know Madrid area has some of that, I'm fairly concerned that I'd find culture there boring for my interests. Places like Seattle, Boston, Portland, SF, and even smaller cities in the U.S. like Cleveland, Austin, etc. are much more my speed. I know Madrid quite well, and have been to Barcelona, Alicante, Seville, Granada, and 20+ other smaller places and although they are charming and lovely, they are not "kooky" enough (in the way I am used to in the U.S.) for my tastes to live there full time.

Re: "Irritation": I also REALLY want to live in a fully detached house, since I'm tired of living with neighbors in the building. I also love quiet. I'm concerned that the loudness there might get on my nerves (as it has in some pockets of the U.S., for different reasons), and I'm hoping a "chalet" off the beaten path might be a way to avoid most of that racket.

*2. Money.* I also am nervous about finances. I know if my wife gets a teaching job, the pay is quite low relative to U.S. standards (she's telling me like the equivalent of $25--$30k/year...does that seem right?). I have no guaranteed way to make money from anywhere, and although I might be able to teach English in Spain, the pay for that is also low. We live humbly, but we've also done a poor job for saving enough for retirement given the uncertainties of the next, say, 30 years. Then, when we probably eventually return to the U.S. for a while, it may be much harder to get work here again. (Although right now it's awful for me anyway).

*3. Bureaucracy. * I'm not that worried about this, but I just want to make sure we don't screw ourselves over in regards to Spanish law. My Spanish is just not up to snuff enough to read legalese, and my wife's mind is not built for it, so I'm just worried about getting it right. I guess the idea would be for us to move there and for me to register right away for _residencia _based on marriage to her, and she'd be able to prove income with her new teaching job there, if she got one. Aside from that, I'm not looking forward to filing all the U.S. tax forms and learning that mess, but I'll do what I have to.

*4. Timing*. If she's taking the _opisiciones _at the end of June, what kind of timeline would we have to get ready to move to Spain? We have an apartment full of stuff, 3,000+ books, a car, and our lease is set to end at the end of July. As of right now, this is all just a dream, with zero concrete plans other than her insisting on taking the _oposiciones _if and when they are offered. 

Thanks for reading my thoughts, and any perspective you can lend!


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## slpmaria (Nov 11, 2017)

Tortuga Torta said:


> I have four basic worries:
> 
> *1. Cultural Boredom/Irritation.* I'm a person who would like to be involved with ideas, creativity, progressive rock music-making, vegan food (yes, I know there's a good scene in Madrid now, which is awesome) philosophy, technology, literature in English, etc., and although I know Madrid area has some of that, I'm fairly concerned that I'd find culture there boring for my interests. Places like Seattle, Boston, Portland, SF, and even smaller cities in the U.S. like Cleveland, Austin, etc. are much more my speed. I know Madrid quite well, and have been to Barcelona, Alicante, Seville, Granada, and 20+ other smaller places and although they are charming and lovely, they are not "kooky" enough (in the way I am used to in the U.S.) for my tastes to live there full time.
> 
> ...


Wow. That's an awful lot of concerns and none of them have short answers. I'll do my best, but I do have one caveat: I'm not living there yet. We have booked our flight though and plan to be there within the next month and a half.

1. Cultural Boredom: Seriously? You'll be in Madrid! How close are you to NYC? Do you go there much? Enjoy museums, theater, etc.? Like NYC, Madrid is a major international capitol. Maybe you didn't explore it enough to know where to find the things you're interested in. We're from Asheville NC (which is probably just your cup of tea) and we're moving to Malaga. We spent a month there and were very pleased to find a nice art scene, museums, theaters, etc. Keep an open mind and a positive attitude. If you go to Spain and constantly compare things to the US, you are missing out on being present and enjoying what's really awesome about being there.

Detached house doesn't sound like a good idea for you. You're going to end up living outside the city, away from the very things that you need to keep you happy. Try to get an apartment above the 10th floor. The noise doesn't make it up there. I learned this from a friend living in Chicago.

2. Money: Madrid is expensive, but wouldn't you make more money there than in a small town? There must be some kind of adjustment for the cost of living. I wouldn't go to Spain thinking you'll try to find a job once you're there. Is there any way you can transfer your current skills into either something freelance or for a company that would let you work remotely?

3. Bureaucracy: Is the bureaucracy we have here really any better? Do you own a house? Have investments, stocks, dependents? If not, your taxes shouldn't be that much more complicated than they are now, although I would get a CPA to handle these. Their fees are based on complexity and time spent, so it shouldn't cost too much. Spanish taxes I know nothing about, but I'm sure there are others on the forum who do. Not sure what you mean by getting screwed over by Spanish law.

4. My husband and I started our getting our paperwork together in August. We submitted to the Embassy in October and got approved 2 weeks later. We own a home, 2 cars, have 2 cats we are bringing with us and have decided to ship ONE pallet with artwork and personal items. We sold the house, sold one car already (plan to hold on to the other one until closer to leaving then rent for a short period), have gotten the cats ready to fly and enter the country, have either sold or given away our books (downloaded what we loved on Kindle, sold to used bookstore, donated to Goodwill, gave some to people who would appreciate), copied CDs we were hanging onto into the laptops (again, to the used CD store, given away, etc.). We are now in the process of offloading our furniture and boxing up items to ship. We've been donating giving away or selling household items, clothes we haven't worn, etc. all along. It takes a lot of time to do this.

My advice is to think things through carefully and try and work through all the angles and what-ifs. You have to really want to do this. Talking about it with others helps. Research like crazy so that you're not caught unaware of what you need. At least you will have done what you need to make an informed decision. 

You may find that perhaps Spain is not for you when you weigh pros/cons. Or maybe now is not the right time. I would say check out Asheville, but it's getting expensive to live here and jobs are not easy to get.

If you decide to do this, give yourself a timeline with due dates for everything. Moving anywhere is doable, but it takes work no matter where you go.

Best of luck to you.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Alarm bells go off for me when I hear about the basis for your (tentative) move - the assumption that your wife will pass the oposiciones and get a job. There will be hundreds if not thousands of people taking the exams, all fighting for only a couple of dozen of teaching posts. 

And as for the timing, at least here in Andalucia new teachers are told at the very last minute (I mean literally the day before) where they will be teaching. Sometimes classes have even started and the government is still sorting out where to send teachers. So thinking that you'll have a month or two to make your move is really unrealistic. 

And then there are those teachers who have passed the exam but end up not getting any post at all. They're left with the option of being called to do substitutions - if they're lucky. 

Another thing - the thought that you "might be able to teach English"...hmmm. What qualifications do you have to do that? Nearly all the half way decent language academies will require you to have a CELTA or TEFL certificate, which means not just any English speaking person can walk in and get a job. Of course you could get your certificate and then your chances of getting a job are good - but as you say the pay is very low and the hours are terrible.

I say all of this as an English teacher myself (at an academy) and with three close friends who are teachers in the public school system in Andalucia. 

Not to be all negative, I don't think you need to worry about some of your other concerns. Your US taxes shouldn't be complicated if they're not complicated now. I've always been able to do mine myself with little problem. Getting your residency card is also pretty straightforward. The hardest part might be getting an appointment to turn all the paperwork in! And as for cultural boredom, I can't believe that in a modern European city of over 3 million inhabitants you wouldn't be able to find your niche. Of course if you choose to live in a quiet detached house far out in the suburbs that might be a different story. 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have to agree with the "surprised" reaction from slpmaria on the culture issue. I have not lived in so many places but Madrid has more culture than any-one can digest, of so many types and varieties.

But I disagree that Madrid is expensive. Compared to more rural areas of course, but by western standards it is still quite easy to have a comfortable life on a pair of professional salaries.

The compromise you are proposing to live in a fully detached house however, may mean that you are too far from the center of town to make sporadic visits viable.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I am a bit puzzled at this bit


> She was previously--15+ years back--a teacher there, and she is determined to "sit for" the competitive exam (_oposiciones_) this coming summer. Her plan (not our plan, *her* plan) is, if she gets offered a job due to that, to take the job and move back. Mostly likely the community of Madrid.


As your wife is Spanish and has been a teacher before (although I presume in the private system) you must both be aware of the strange way opos work here. Depending on what she would be teaching/ taking the exam in, there is no guarantee that opos will even be offered - they don't offer the exam every year. My husband teaches FP Business admin and he did the exam every 2 years approx. Then you should know you don't pass or fail the exam - you are given points and they decide how many places will be covered that year. If you are lucky enough to be offered something you have to take it or lose your points and your place in the list so it might be at the other end of the Comunidad. My husband's first commute was just under 100km - each way! He was teaching for 17 years I think it was before he was awarded a permanent job being an "interino" before that. He was top of the list for years and years, but no permanent jobs were given out. So now he has the permanent job, but not a permanent place - he probably won't get that before he retires as he's 57 now!
Just meaning to point out it's not so easy as doing an exam, "passing" and being "ofered a job", although if you are going to teach English which is what I presume she will do there is more of a chance. The opos do have to be throughly prepared for though - speaking excellent English isn't enough


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

slpmaria said:


> Wow. That's an awful lot of concerns and none of them have short answers. I'll do my best,


Thanks so much!



> 1. Cultural Boredom: Seriously? You'll be in Madrid! How close are you to NYC? Do you go there much? Enjoy museums, theater, etc.? Like NYC, Madrid is a major international capitol. Maybe you didn't explore it enough to know where to find the things you're interested in.


Yes, seriously. I totally understand why this might be confusing, though. Sure, there are some excellent things to do in Madrid. Last time I saw Shakespeare in English (with supertitles in Spanish) from a company from Ireland. We will go to the Prado sometimes for special exhibits, and there are great restaurants even with my limitations. I guess I was emphasizing the "kooky" aspect, which I _haven't_ found in Madrid so far, and I've been there many many times. There's just a certain weird energy you can find in Washington Square Park in NYC or Coventry Street in Cleveland or Olympia WA or Lark Street, Albany that seems to me mostly something I don't find in Spain. Sure, there are exceptions. I found a really weird art exhibit in Mostoles, a burb of Madrid. Maybe I just need to be more patient.




> We're from Asheville NC (which is probably just your cup of tea)


Oh, now I am so mad at myself for not writing what I was going to write in my originalj post. I was _that_ close to including Asheville as one of the examples of funkier U.S. small cities! (I have never been there, but I've read/heard). So you couldn't be more appropriate to answer me! What luck!



> and we're moving to Malaga.


Wow, why? Why Malaga and why Spain at all? 



> We spent a month there and were very pleased to find a nice art scene, museums, theaters, etc. Keep an open mind and a positive attitude. If you go to Spain and constantly compare things to the US, you are missing out on being present and enjoying what's really awesome about being there.


Yes, I hear you. I really do know Spain very well, been visiting since 1999, and I know I will have to find/build a way to stay entertained there. Fortunately, some of that for me is stuff I can do anywhere, like running, looking at nature, dining out, coffee. Certainly there's a lot of American culture I don't relate to either (NASCAR, pro sports, the most popular music, politics, etc.). 



> Detached house doesn't sound like a good idea for you. You're going to end up living outside the city, away from the very things that you need to keep you happy. Try to get an apartment above the 10th floor. The noise doesn't make it up there. I learned this from a friend living in Chicago.


Yeah, just not sure I can stand to live with other people in the building anymore. At my in-laws place outside Madrid, they live on the 8th floor but I can clearly hear the guy upstairs talking (can make out what he's saying) and it's just lame. I'd probably rather drive a bit into a more urban area in order to have some cultural experience rather than live with a guy saying "Me oyes? Digame" etc in my living space.




> 2. Money: Madrid is expensive, but wouldn't you make more money there than in a small town? There must be some kind of adjustment for the cost of living.


Most probably. 

Another reason I would not want to live in Madrid the city itself is the pollution. It's in a "bowl" and the smog just settles into it. I'd really rather live outside of that. My in-laws live about 35+ min south of downtown Madrid.



> I wouldn't go to Spain thinking you'll try to find a job once you're there. Is there any way you can transfer your current skills into either something freelance or for a company that would let you work remotely?


Maybe. I currently make some side money writing remotely for one company but it's definitely not enough to live on, and I don't know if they require that I live in the U.S. 




> 3. Bureaucracy: Is the bureaucracy we have here really any better?


I think it really is. E.g., my wife's total time from filing to becoming a U.S. citizen: 3.5 months, _and_ we moved during the process. Then she had to get a new social security card. We applied for it in person on Monday...and it was in our mailbox on that Saturday. Compare to when she updated her info with the Spanish consulate, basically signed one piece of paper...and it took over a year to just acknowledge that she was all set, despite my wife asking about it a bunch of times. Spain is infamous for how slow and _Brazil_-like their bureaucracy is, and my wife is the first to admit this, almost proudly.




> Do you own a house? Have investments, stocks, dependents? If not, your taxes shouldn't be that much more complicated than they are now,


They will definitely be more complicated because we will have to file taxes in the U.S. _and _in Spain every year, and fill out the tax treaty/etc paperwork for the U.S., and get it sent in (not sure if this can be done electronically now or not). Hopefully that won't be too bad, but it adds an extra level of complexity for sure.



> 4. My husband and I started our getting our paperwork together in August. We submitted to the Embassy in October and got approved 2 weeks later.


What paperwork did you have to submit and get approved for? You're both Americans? 



> We own a home, 2 cars, have 2 cats we are bringing with us and have decided to ship ONE pallet with artwork and personal items. We sold the house, sold one car already (plan to hold on to the other one until closer to leaving then rent for a short period), have gotten the cats ready to fly and enter the country, have either sold or given away our books (downloaded what we loved on Kindle, sold to used bookstore, donated to Goodwill, gave some to people who would appreciate), copied CDs we were hanging onto into the laptops (again, to the used CD store, given away, etc.). We are now in the process of offloading our furniture and boxing up items to ship. We've been donating giving away or selling household items, clothes we haven't worn, etc. all along. It takes a lot of time to do this.


This is super helpful, thank you so much for taking the time to write it. It's scary to think about the books issue for us, since we a) have so many, and b) my wife is loath to part with them (as am I; I'd like to at least keep the "best of", maybe 100 books??). 

In some important ways, we have less to worry about than you. We don't own a home, have no pets, very little of value in terms of furniture/art...I have some guitars (one of which is from Spain, so it could "come home"). But it still feels overwhelming, as we have horded a ton of mostly junk and my wife has tendencies in that regard. There are times I feel I just want a few pairs of clothes, a laptop, and that's about it. 




> My advice is to think things through carefully and try and work through all the angles and what-ifs. You have to really want to do this. Talking about it with others helps. Research like crazy so that you're not caught unaware of what you need. At least you will have done what you need to make an informed decision.


Excellent advice, and yes, this is why I'm here. (And you have given me some!).



> You may find that perhaps Spain is not for you when you weigh pros/cons. Or maybe now is not the right time. I would say check out Asheville, but it's getting expensive to live here and jobs are not easy to get.


What's "expensive" for you? Like, a 2BR decent (but not fancy) apartment goes for what there?



> If you decide to do this, give yourself a timeline with due dates for everything. Moving anywhere is doable, but it takes work no matter where you go.


Thanks, due dates is key. We tend to follow the "do nothing then scramble like maniacs, losing out on $1,000 in mistakes" philosophy most times, so that's why I am writing now, in December, for a possible move in summer 2018. 



> Best of luck to you.


Thank you! You, too! Enjoy your new home/country/life! I hope the cats enjoy Spanish cat food, it's probably tastier than American!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

kalohi said:


> Alarm bells go off for me when I hear about the basis for your (tentative) move - the assumption that your wife will pass the oposiciones and get a job. There will be hundreds if not thousands of people taking the exams, all fighting for only a couple of dozen of teaching posts.


She's realistic, as am I, that is by no means a sure thing. She tried many times prior to her moving to the U.S. and has friends in their late 40s who have never managed to get a job, despite being in the system as "substitutes" (in the way they mean it, they are real teachers, just not funcionarios), being really smart, and really wanting to achieve it. 

If she doesn't get an offer, she is saying we just won't move to Spain at this time. Which seems wise (though she will be sad).



> And as for the timing, at least here in Andalucia new teachers are told at the very last minute (I mean literally the day before) where they will be teaching. Sometimes classes have even started and the government is still sorting out where to send teachers. So thinking that you'll have a month or two to make your move is really unrealistic.


Well, if she sits for the competitive exam for a particular community, wouldn't she at least know that she'd be working in that community if she was informed that she passed the exam? I know that doesn't narrow it down much for the community of Madrid, though. 

That's really insane. Because even if we get the green light that she will have a job somewhere in the community of Madrid, it could be on the opposite side of the city, and that means it could be a very long and tiring commute. There is no way we could rent something the day before, etc.

How could we even manage this remotely successfully? How do people in Andalusia? (which is even bigger in geographic area than Madrid, I believe, correct?)



> And then there are those teachers who have passed the exam but end up not getting any post at all. They're left with the option of being called to do substitutions - if they're lucky.


Ayiee. The plot thickens. These are the reasons I implored my wife to just forget the whole funcionario system in the first place. I was disgusted with it back in 2000. 



> Another thing - the thought that you "might be able to teach English"...hmmm. What qualifications do you have to do that? Nearly all the half way decent language academies will require you to have a CELTA or TEFL certificate, which means not just any English speaking person can walk in and get a job. Of course you could get your certificate and then your chances of getting a job are good - but as you say the pay is very low and the hours are terrible.


I have not looked into this; my wife just had a confidence that surely I could teach English there. Thanks for these pointers.



> I say all of this as an English teacher myself (at an academy) and with three close friends who are teachers in the public school system in Andalucia.


Well, then, excellent "intel". Thank you so much.



> Not to be all negative, I don't think you need to worry about some of your other concerns. Your US taxes shouldn't be complicated if they're not complicated now. I've always been able to do mine myself with little problem.


That's good to read. I have never paid for tax prep in my life, and proudly (er, stubbornly...cheaply) do them myself with online tax prep software. Can Americans file their taxes electronically from Spain now, or would I have to print out forms and mail them to the U.S.? Do you have to do the full set of taxes here, like the full 1040A or whatever, or can you get away with a reduced set of forms given that you are paying your taxes (I'll assume all of them, unless you're lucky enough to make over the threshold) to Spain and claiming the treaty exception?




> Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


Thank you! So helpful. I surely don't want to think that my wife will live out the rest of her life spending only 5-8 weeks in Spain, so it really seems like something has to change, whether we both move there or we do like 3-4 month (me 3 since I'd have to go by then) visits (though she feels that's not enough for her, which I understand), or...who knows. It's an overwhelming topic for me, so it's easy to put off into the future indefinitely, but as her parents are about 75 and having some health scares now, and my mom died, it's really motivated her to look into it further.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Overandout said:


> I have to agree with the "surprised" reaction from slpmaria on the culture issue. I have not lived in so many places but Madrid has more culture than any-one can digest, of so many types and varieties.


Maybe I'm just not plugged into that side of Madrid. I've been there so many times, and just aren't detecting it. I really think it is more of an American thing that I am referring to (and that's OK--I'm not _blaming_ Spain/Madrid for lacking it, that's just part of cultural differences).



> But I disagree that Madrid is expensive. Compared to more rural areas of course, but by western standards it is still quite easy to have a comfortable life on a pair of professional salaries.


Off the top of your head, how much would you say a 2BR apartment with a nice sized common areas would go for in a hip-but-not-posh part of Madrid itself?



> The compromise you are proposing to live in a fully detached house however, may mean that you are too far from the center of town to make sporadic visits viable.


. 

I know we will want to be not too far (less than an hour drive, I hope) from Fuenlabrada, where my in-laws live, since the main reason my wife wants to move back is to spend much more time with her parents each year and it would probably be dumb to live in, say, Valencia and plan all free blocks around visits to that area. 

Thanks again for your response!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am a bit puzzled at this bit
> As your wife is Spanish and has been a teacher before (although I presume in the private system) you must both be aware of the strange way opos work here.


She was a teacher in the public system, and took the opos a number of times. She is aware of how the opos work, as am I (basically), despite my clumsy way of referring to it above. But your input is still super useful, because details really matter and the more data points I have, the better decision/planning I can make. So, thank you!



> Depending on what she would be teaching/ taking the exam in, there is no guarantee that opos will even be offered - they don't offer the exam every year.


She tells me that she thought they might be offered this year. No idea why she thinks that. Perhaps she just meant _if _they are offered.



> My husband teaches FP Business admin


What does the FP stand for?



> Then you should know you don't pass or fail the exam - you are given points and they decide how many places will be covered that year. If you are lucky enough to be offered something you have to take it or lose your points and your place in the list so it might be at the other end of the Comunidad.


Yes, I knew that, but for me "pass" = "get a job offer", but sure, I should have been clearer. It's all rather Byzantine to me. 



> My husband's first commute was just under 100km - each way!


Wow, that's all kinds of wrong. Then again, I worked with people who commuted those distances for college teaching in the U.S. (I never understood it, though).

He was teaching for 17 years I think it was before he was awarded a permanent job being an "interino" before that. 

It's possibly "interino" was what my wife was previously, and which several of her friends continue to be, year after year after year. So that makes sense. An "interino" is not a "funcionario", correct? It's sort of a fill-in teacher position for a year, right?



> He was top of the list for years and years, but no permanent jobs were given out. So now he has the permanent job, but not a permanent place - he probably won't get that before he retires as he's 57 now!


Also incredible. 



> Just meaning to point out it's not so easy as doing an exam, "passing" and being "ofered a job", although if you are going to teach English which is what I presume she will do there is more of a chance. The opos do have to be throughly prepared for though - speaking excellent English isn't enough


Yes, she has been studying incredibly dry aspects of English grammar, etc. It strikes me so misguided, but I see that in American education as well. The amount of b.s. in these systems is unreal.

Thanks again for your input!


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Off the top of your head, how much would you say a 2BR apartment with a nice sized common areas would go for in a hip-but-not-posh part of Madrid itself?


I guess about 900 euro per month plus bills but a lot depends on how old the apartment is.


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## brentinco (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi there,
Your comment about taxes got my attention. My husband and I are retiring in Spain in 2019 (Rota area). We are fully retired and our only income will be Military retirement, Social Security and Disability from the US (no income in Spain). I have gotten so much conflicting information on the way we have to file our taxes and I am hoping you can shed some light. While living in Spain (residing in Spain), do we file our taxes in the US under the us tax brackets or in Spain under the Spanish tax brackets. The tax bracket in Spain for our income is 35% vs 19% in the US, so it is a huge difference. Any information will be greatly appreciated!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tortuga Torta said:


> She was a teacher in the public system, and took the opos a number of times. She is aware of how the opos work, as am I (basically), despite my clumsy way of referring to it above. But your input is still super useful, because details really matter and the more data points I have, the better decision/planning I can make. So, thank you!
> 
> Oh, good - just checking
> 
> ...


lll


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> I have to agree with the "surprised" reaction from slpmaria on the culture issue. I have not lived in so many places but Madrid has more culture than any-one can digest, of so many types and varieties.
> 
> But I disagree that Madrid is expensive. Compared to more rural areas of course, but by western standards it is still quite easy to have a comfortable life on a pair of professional salaries.
> 
> The compromise you are proposing to live in a fully detached house however, may mean that you are too far from the center of town to make sporadic visits viable.


I don't think that Madrid is particularly expensive either, although living in a small town in the south of Spain is probably a lot cheaper, (but that doesn't make Madrid expensive if you see what I mean)
However, as I understand it housing has risen considerably recently. Is that right?

Another thing. What would be the OPs visa situation?


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## slpmaria (Nov 11, 2017)

brentinco said:


> Hi there,
> Your comment about taxes got my attention. My husband and I are retiring in Spain in 2019 (Rota area). We are fully retired and our only income will be Military retirement, Social Security and Disability from the US (no income in Spain). I have gotten so much conflicting information on the way we have to file our taxes and I am hoping you can shed some light. While living in Spain (residing in Spain), do we file our taxes in the US under the us tax brackets or in Spain under the Spanish tax brackets. The tax bracket in Spain for our income is 35% vs 19% in the US, so it is a huge difference. Any information will be greatly appreciated!


Hi there! My husband is ex-military, gets SS and has an annuity. We were told that if you are on a non-lucrative or retirement visa, you only have to pay US taxes.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Going back to the culture...

If OP, you are expecting American hip, the you are indeed right to be worried, culture is, as I said, vast and varied but it is individual (as in most parts of the world).

For me that is an attraction. I would be surprised if you didn't find (with patience ass you say) an alternative or comparable scene, but I would be fairly sure in saying that you won't find the "same" scene you are leaving, but that would be dull wouldn't it?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Can Americans file their taxes electronically from Spain now, or would I have to print out forms and mail them to the U.S.? Do you have to do the full set of taxes here, like the full 1040A or whatever, or can you get away with a reduced set of forms given that you are paying your taxes (I'll assume all of them, unless you're lucky enough to make over the threshold) to Spain and claiming the treaty exception?


Every year it's different. Last year I couldn't file electronically but the year before that (or maybe it was 3 years ago?) I could. I'm married to a Spaniard, and the problem is that the online software some years won't accept an NRA spouse (non-resident alien, ie, non-American citizen). But it's no big deal to print it out and mail it in. 

I file a 1040 (is that what you mean by a "full set of taxes"? It's only two pages) and I claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. I end up paying zero tax in the US. There's also the Health Coverage Exemption form and the foreign bank account form, and that's it for me.

Spanish taxes, by the way, are super easy to do. You can ask for an appointment with the tax office and they will fill out your tax return for free!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Well, if she sits for the competitive exam for a particular community, wouldn't she at least know that she'd be working in that community if she was informed that she passed the exam? I know that doesn't narrow it down much for the community of Madrid, though.
> 
> That's really insane. Because even if we get the green light that she will have a job somewhere in the community of Madrid, it could be on the opposite side of the city, and that means it could be a very long and tiring commute. There is no way we could rent something the day before, etc.


Yes, she would be doing the exam to get a job somewhere in the particular province that's offering the exam - eg, she'd do the exam in Madrid to get a job in Madrid province. And as has been mentioned, she'd get _very _short notice of where her teaching post is.



Tortuga Torta said:


> How could we even manage this remotely successfully? How do people in Andalusia? (which is even bigger in geographic area than Madrid, I believe, correct?)


The Andalucia province is MUCH bigger than Madrid province. So it's not at all unusual for teachers to be sent to a post which is many hours away from their home. What they do is rent a cheap apartment near their assigned school (often sharing with other teachers from that school) and ask for a work schedule that allows them to start late on Monday and end early on Friday. Then they commute home to spend the longish weekend with their family. Two of my friends who are high school teachers had to do this for _years _until they got enough points to be assigned to a nearby school. They had small children at the time too - what a crazy family life!! My other teacher friend decided not to risk being sent far away from Seville and volunteered to take a post at a school in a "problematic" area (interpret: very low income/high crime area). Those "problematic" schools are not in the general pot of schools that are assigned out because they are considered dangerous, and they only take teachers who volunteer to be there. There was no way I'd consider doing either of these two options to work, so that's why I never tried to sit the opos and work in the public school system. It's an absolutely ludicrous system!!! I can't imagine how you'd manage it remotely.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

brentinco said:


> Hi there,
> Your comment about taxes got my attention. My husband and I are retiring in Spain in 2019 (Rota area). We are fully retired and our only income will be Military retirement, Social Security and Disability from the US (no income in Spain). I have gotten so much conflicting information on the way we have to file our taxes and I am hoping you can shed some light. While living in Spain (residing in Spain), do we file our taxes in the US under the us tax brackets or in Spain under the Spanish tax brackets. The tax bracket in Spain for our income is 35% vs 19% in the US, so it is a huge difference. Any information will be greatly appreciated!


I'm sorry, I myself am not even in Spain yet and am just here to learn, but it looks like someone else has given you an answer in this thread (and a favorable one for you and your husband!) and I'm sure if you post your own question, multiple people (Americans who live in Spain) will try to help you and probably will get it cleared up for you.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> lll


Thank you, Pesky Wesky, for all that. Wow, the Spanish teaching system is simply nuts! I knew it was bad, but I had no idea how bad and Kafkaesque! 

It's funny: about 18 years ago, after seeing my wife fail to get a permanent job and her brilliant friends (one of which speaks 10 languages!) languishing year after year chasing the "funcionario" dream, I strongly advocated that she cut ties with that whole system. Now I see that might have been about right. Sure, once you get it and a permanent location it can be great, but yikes, what a crazy wasteful ride to get there. I'm glad your husband had the wherewithal to get through it and you'll enjoy his pension and whatnot down the road, though. Thanks again!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Thank you, Pesky Wesky, for all that. Wow, the Spanish teaching system is simply nuts! I knew it was bad, but I had no idea how bad and Kafkaesque!
> 
> It's funny: about 18 years ago, after seeing my wife fail to get a permanent job and her brilliant friends (one of which speaks 10 languages!) languishing year after year chasing the "funcionario" dream, I strongly advocated that she cut ties with that whole system. Now I see that might have been about right. Sure, once you get it and a permanent location it can be great, but yikes, what a crazy wasteful ride to get there. I'm glad your husband had the wherewithal to get through it and you'll enjoy his pension and whatnot down the road, though. Thanks again!


Haha, re pension... Well we're not too sure that the government pension funds will last long enough to give us a pension, but yes OH wanted to be a teacher and he got there. Not all people have his tenacity. Others would say he was a fool for leaving the multinational American company where he was before. As you can see from the edited highlights I've written here, teaching in Spain is no easy option, but if that's what you want to do then Spain certainly needs you so Come On Down!!!

And thanks for taking the information I gave in a positive manner. My intention is not to paint the bleakest picture and tell you not to come - it's just an area that I do have info that I can share and I think it's important that you have this side of the story as well as the more positive side. I have been in Spain for over 30 years and am very happy here, so that's important to know too!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Overandout said:


> Going back to the culture...
> 
> If OP, you are expecting American hip, the you are indeed right to be worried, culture is, as I said, vast and varied but it is individual (as in most parts of the world).
> 
> For me that is an attraction. I would be surprised if you didn't find (with patience ass you say) an alternative or comparable scene, but I would be fairly sure in saying that you won't find the "same" scene you are leaving, but that would be dull wouldn't it?


Thanks for your thoughts. This sounds right on. I don't know yet if it would be dull or not to find the same weird energy I find in the U.S., but I suspect it wouldn't for me. I certainly have met some Spaniards about my age (my wife's friends) who I can have some decent conversations with, and the counts for a lot, but still they don't _quite_ get me. Let's just say that _Repo Man_ probably wouldn't have been made in Spain. 

All this said, I know if I chose my path carefully enough, I could avoid some/much of the super-Spanish mainstream cultural stuff that I don't care for, just as I avoid that in the U.S.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think that Madrid is particularly expensive either, although living in a small town in the south of Spain is probably a lot cheaper, (but that doesn't make Madrid expensive if you see what I mean)
> However, as I understand it housing has risen considerably recently. Is that right?
> 
> Another thing. What would be the OPs visa situation?


I am not quite sure what my visa situation would be. I am American and have no other citizenship. My wife has two citizenships: Spanish by birth (grew up there) and naturalized American. 

From the little I understand it, I thought we could move there with me towed behind as her spouse, and I could right away apply for "residencia" based on that. I am less clear on whether she/I would have to prove our income/savings at some point in this process. I wouldn't think she would have to as a citizen returning to her country. As for me and whether I could join the country, I would think there might be some means test on that (I know in the U.S. when she got her green card I had to pledge to support her for 10 years).


Then, I think, after one year in that state, I could apply for citizenship based on marriage to a Spaniard. (When I would actually get it, though, based on the slowness of the Spanish government, is another issue. In fact, someone on this forum about 2 years ago gave me that disturbing heads up).


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

kalohi said:


> Every year it's different. Last year I couldn't file electronically but the year before that (or maybe it was 3 years ago?) I could. I'm married to a Spaniard, and the problem is that the online software some years won't accept an NRA spouse (non-resident alien, ie, non-American citizen). But it's no big deal to print it out and mail it in.


Ahh, OK. My wife is an American citizen now (naturalized), so I'm hoping that might mean we'll get lucky and be able to file electronically. I've found I much prefer it to paper forms, but if we have to use paper/post, then OK.



> I file a 1040 (is that what you mean by a "full set of taxes"? It's only two pages)


My 1040 itself is only 2 pages, but the various schedules that go with it can bump it to 5-10 pages and many hours of research and headaches for me...But I've had "Obamacare"/AHA and that alone was complex enough to just about _cause_ me to require (mental) health care! 



> and I claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. I end up paying zero tax in the US. There's also the Health Coverage Exemption form and the foreign bank account form, and that's it for me.


Good to know.



> Spanish taxes, by the way, are super easy to do. You can ask for an appointment with the tax office and they will fill out your tax return for free!


SUPER good to know!! I'm ready for super easy taxes after many years of filing my own U.S. taxes!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

kalohi said:


> The Andalucia province is MUCH bigger than Madrid province. So it's not at all unusual for teachers to be sent to a post which is many hours away from their home. What they do is rent a cheap apartment near their assigned school (often sharing with other teachers from that school) and ask for a work schedule that allows them to start late on Monday and end early on Friday. Then they commute home to spend the longish weekend with their family. Two of my friends who are high school teachers had to do this for _years _until they got enough points to be assigned to a nearby school. They had small children at the time too - what a crazy family life!!


Wow, that's awful! We have a friend in another province who got suddenly sent (after years of working in one location close to her owned home) 90 min away, and there is apparently nothing she can do about it. But what you describe is way crazier. I can't believe that the Powers That Be think this is a reasonable situation for any citizens, let alone _teachers._



> My other teacher friend decided not to risk being sent far away from Seville and volunteered to take a post at a school in a "problematic" area (interpret: very low income/high crime area). Those "problematic" schools are not in the general pot of schools that are assigned out because they are considered dangerous, and they only take teachers who volunteer to be there. There was no way I'd consider doing either of these two options to work, so that's why I never tried to sit the opos and work in the public school system. It's an absolutely ludicrous system!!! I can't imagine how you'd manage it remotely.


Wow. I didn't realize there was another level to this madness. Do the experienced teachers in these difficult areas at least get paid really well?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> I am not quite sure what my visa situation would be. I am American and have no other citizenship. My wife has two citizenships: Spanish by birth (grew up there) and naturalized American.
> 
> From the little I understand it, I thought we could move there with me towed behind as her spouse, and I could right away apply for "residencia" based on that. I am less clear on whether she/I would have to prove our income/savings at some point in this process. I wouldn't think she would have to as a citizen returning to her country. As for me and whether I could join the country, I would think there might be some means test on that (I know in the U.S. when she got her green card I had to pledge to support her for 10 years).
> 
> ...


You are right, you wouldn't need a visa. You would enter Spain as a tourist (no need for a visa for that) and then within 30 days you have to apply for residency as a family member of an EU citizen. Your wife would have to demonstrate sufficient funds to support the two of you.

I can't remember the exact time frame for applying for citizenship in your case, but it seems to me a year or maybe two is right. How's your Spanish? You have to pass a Spanish language test plus a Spanish culture test before applying. I have heard that the wait time to actually get the citizenship is running at about 2 years. That's what happens in a country that has been sunk in a deep recession for a decade and has gone through massive government cutbacks to try and appease the EU central government.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

kalohi said:


> You are right, you wouldn't need a visa. You would enter Spain as a tourist (no need for a visa for that) and then within 30 days you have to apply for residency as a family member of an EU citizen. Your wife would have to demonstrate sufficient funds to support the two of you.



Do you happen to know if that is current income or savings? Or either or both? 



> I can't remember the exact time frame for applying for citizenship in your case, but it seems to me a year or maybe two is right.


Web sites I'm checking are saying it's 1 year if married to a Spaniard.



> How's your Spanish? You have to pass a Spanish language test plus a Spanish culture test before applying.


So-so. Not really conversational "on the street" but better than just the typical person who took 2 years in high school. I have no idea how rigorous the test of Spanish is. (My only experience with a language citizenship test was the U.S. one, which was a joke). I know a fair bit of culture for a non-Spaniard, since I've been there about 10x and my wife and I talk about it often.



> I have heard that the wait time to actually get the citizenship is running at about 2 years.


.

That's once you file, after having stayed the one year in the country? So the total time from getting off the plane in Madrid to being sworn in as a new citizen is about three years and change? Not ideal, but probably compatible with the idea of settling in there for some years (the idea of moving transcontinentally for just a year or even 2 tires me just thinking about it, unless we can finally de-pack rat ourselves!).



> That's what happens in a country that has been sunk in a deep recession for a decade and has gone through massive government cutbacks to try and appease the EU central government.


Huh. I thought Spain just had a culture of very slow paperwork. But sure, I can imagine how EU issues has a challenging aspect for a country like Spain. For what it's worth, once my wife applied for U.S. citizenship, she was sworn in 3.5 months later, and that counts us moving during the process, fingerprinting, etc. I couldn't have been happier with it. I think using on-screen fillable PDFs that create a scannable bar code on the bottom of the forms was a big part of the speed. 

Thanks again!


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## John98103 (Nov 12, 2015)

Here's an app to compare the cost of living in two cities (like Madrid and where you are now) - apparently pretty accurate as is constantly updated:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/

And meetup (meetup.com) lists many expat groups all over, to get you started/settled


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

John98103 said:


> Here's an app to compare the cost of living in two cities (like Madrid and where you are now) - apparently pretty accurate as is constantly updated:
> 
> https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
> 
> And meetup (meetup.com) lists many expat groups all over, to get you started/settled


That's quite handy, that Numbeo. Thank you. Now I know bananas are more expensive in Spain than the U.S., but tomatoes are cheaper (may explain why they throw them!).

Glad to see Meetup is there, too. A great idea.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Social Security is not considered income here. By paying taxes on US income you are exempt from paying taxes on the same income here. You must file for IRS form 8802. Or call them in Philly at 1-267-941-1000. This is not a personal phone number nor is it advertising of any kind. This all has to do with information on the Spain/US Tax Treaty.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

slpmaria said:


> 4. My husband and I started our getting our paperwork together in August. We submitted to the Embassy in October and got approved 2 weeks later. We own a home, 2 cars, have 2 cats we are bringing with us and have decided to ship ONE pallet with artwork and personal items. We sold the house, sold one car already (plan to hold on to the other one until closer to leaving then rent for a short period), have gotten the cats ready to fly and enter the country, have either sold or given away our books (downloaded what we loved on Kindle, sold to used bookstore, donated to Goodwill, gave some to people who would appreciate), copied CDs we were hanging onto into the laptops (again, to the used CD store, given away, etc.). We are now in the process of offloading our furniture and boxing up items to ship. We've been donating giving away or selling household items, clothes we haven't worn, etc. all along. It takes a lot of time to do this.


wow! not to detract from the topic on this thread but hubby and I are also planning to retire to Malaga and what you're in the midst of is what I hope will happen for us in 2020. This has been our plan for a few years and now that it's getting closer I came back here to see what I can learn. you have given me some ideas so thank you!!


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Tobyo, we too sold everything to get here. We have been here five years now, have bought into the Spanish healthcare system and are considered permanent EU citizens. The learning process was fun. Now we are just a facet of our community. If you have transitional questions or tax questions, just ask


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. This sounds right on. I don't know yet if it would be dull or not to find the same weird energy I find in the U.S., but I suspect it wouldn't for me. I certainly have met some Spaniards about my age (my wife's friends) who I can have some decent conversations with, and the counts for a lot, but still they don't _quite_ get me. Let's just say that _Repo Man_ probably wouldn't have been made in Spain.
> 
> All this said, I know if I chose my path carefully enough, I could avoid some/much of the super-Spanish mainstream cultural stuff that I don't care for, just as I avoid that in the U.S.


I’m a Ex New Yorker who just moved to Madrid. There’s a young, hip art scene here. More then I can take in. Last night I went to free showing of a Studio Ghibli film. The art space, Matadero, is showing nine Studio Ghibli film for free. Never saw that in New York!
But I worry. There’s a lot of warning bells in your messages. You don’t really sound committed, just doing it for the wife. Errrr, I’m a widow, so is that normal? 
You sound like you don’t have much savings and that could be an issue, because, as pointed out, it won’t be easy at all for you to find work. I came on a non lucrative visa, so I’m not up on those issues. 
About your wife working, everything that’s been said, I second. If, IF she got a job, if there is not a moratorium on jobs, then she could be posted any where in the city. 
A free standing home.? In Madrid? That’s like a free standing home in New York. No existe. You’ll be sooo far away. 
And paperwork. I totally disagree that it’s the same as the US. It’s a nightmarish labyrinth of bureaucracy. Haha, my rental agreement was 24 pages long. 
I’m not sure if you are throwing up roadblocks because you’re afraid of the change or you’re just not that into Spain. 
Give it a chance if you can. I’m here in Madrid, if you do come.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Elyles said:


> Tobyo, we too sold everything to get here. We have been here five years now, have bought into the Spanish healthcare system and are considered permanent EU citizens. The learning process was fun. Now we are just a facet of our community. If you have transitional questions or tax questions, just ask
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh, I have all kinds of questions! Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it!

My biggest question has to do with getting a lease on a place before we even know if our Visas will be approved. We will go through the Chicago consulate and one of their requirements is to have a lease in place before we get there? I just don't understand that logic! What happens if they deny our Visa applications? Or, I could look at this optimistically and think that they approve every Retirement Visa application? uh.....

Here's the link with our requirements: http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/CHICAGO/es/ServiciosConsulares/Serviciosconsularesenchicago/Documents/documentosvisados/retirado.pdf

Did you have this requirement? I know not all consulate's requirements are the same. So, I am perplexed as to how to accomplish this one. Thanks for any help. Also, I have tried to email the consulate and they did not answer. That was a few years ago so maybe I shall try again.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

tobyo said:


> Oh, I have all kinds of questions! Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it!
> 
> My biggest question has to do with getting a lease on a place before we even know if our Visas will be approved. We will go through the Chicago consulate and one of their requirements is to have a lease in place before we get there? I just don't understand that logic! What happens if they deny our Visa applications? Or, I could look at this optimistically and think that they approve every Retirement Visa application? uh.....
> 
> ...




Try again and Skype 


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

tobyo said:


> Oh, I have all kinds of questions! Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it!
> 
> My biggest question has to do with getting a lease on a place before we even know if our Visas will be approved. We will go through the Chicago consulate and one of their requirements is to have a lease in place before we get there? I just don't understand that logic! What happens if they deny our Visa applications? Or, I could look at this optimistically and think that they approve every Retirement Visa application? uh.....
> 
> ...


Yikes, no. In NY, the Spanish consulate has no requirement but you have to supply an address on one or more of the forms. The consulate did answer my email about this and affirmed the need to have an address. A good example of the confusing bureaucracy! But from this forum I learned that I could just give the Airbnb address. I took the time to read the Chicago consulates visa page. They explicitly state that they answer no question, email, phone or letter. I hope there is someone here who can help you.
Maybe post a question about this specific issue....


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Ifn said:


> They explicitly state that they answer no question, email, phone or letter. I hope there is someone here who can help you.
> Maybe post a question about this specific issue....


it's been a while since I studied the Chicago consulate site but that would explain why they never answered me. I have seen that others use an Airbnb address. We may have to do that. Thanks. Yea, I will likely post something here eventually.

Thank you for your help.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

The Madrid Embassy also has an employee whose job it is to help Expats


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Elyles said:


> The Madrid Embassy also has an employee whose job it is to help Expats


guessing that's probably just for expats already living there.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

tobyo said:


> guessing that's probably just for expats already living there.




That is where we got our info on where to go for the customs form prior to moving here. An embassy is part of the US. Anyway, we ended up making an appointment to fill out the customs form in Spanish at the Consulate in Barcelona, who were more than helpful as well. Once we faxed the form to the shipper, it was easy. All with the help of the embassy here. I hope you are renting and not purchasing property at first? When we come over to visit as tourists we tend to get skewed ideas of the area we want to live in. We rented, got to know reliable business people and quieter areas prior to purchase. Once selling our cars in the US we set as a priority, to never purchase another one. There are fabulous bus and train discounts for those over 60. Also, once you learn to travel with public transportation only, life slows down more. Now, we even travel internationally with Spaniards. 

I was going to also ask you about your health insurance plans. I think, but am not sure that the retired military coverage is world wide. If not, Sanitas is great for a year and cheap compared to the US. Then you can buy into the Spanish system. 

If I recall, you plan on residing in Malaga? There should be large expat communities there to help. It’s all an adventure. If you look at as anything but, you might be disappointed.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Ifn said:


> I’m a Ex New Yorker who just moved to Madrid. There’s a young, hip art scene here. More then I can take in. Last night I went to free showing of a Studio Ghibli film. The art space, Matadero, is showing nine Studio Ghibli film for free. Never saw that in New York!


Neat. I had to look up what Studio Ghibli is, but that's interesting. 



> But I worry. There’s a lot of warning bells in your messages. You don’t really sound committed, just doing it for the wife. Errrr, I’m a widow, so is that normal?


No idea how "normal" it is, but I would imagine many international couples face this issue (though all the ones I've met mostly seem to be content to live in the U.S. permanently, but that's a biased sample since some of the ones that weren't content aren't here!). 

In any case, yes, I am considering moving to Spain only for my wife. Sure, there are things about Spain I like--even prefer more than the U.S.--but, on balance, if I hadn't met her I would never have even considered Spain...and probably wouldn't have considered leaving the U.S. at all (though there are things here that I greatly dislike relative to many other countries!). 




> You sound like you don’t have much savings and that could be an issue, because, as pointed out, it won’t be easy at all for you to find work. I came on a non lucrative visa, so I’m not up on those issues.


Some, but not enough to just coast for the rest of our lives. We're not lucky enough to be rather early retirees. 



> A free standing home.? In Madrid? That’s like a free standing home in New York. No existe. You’ll be sooo far away.


If you mean "in Madrid" to mean in the city of Madrid, I wasn't expecting that, sure. If you mean the whole community, I'd think there are plenty of places on the outskirts. I don't mind being a 40 min drive into the city with no traffic (well, I do mind, but not if it buys me more quiet and less pollution). 



> And paperwork. I totally disagree that it’s the same as the US. It’s a nightmarish labyrinth of bureaucracy. Haha, my rental agreement was 24 pages long.


Ha, yes, I've been with my wife for now like 18 years and it's quite clear the Spanish concept of "timely" re: paperwork is very different than in the U.S., and that's true even in the private sphere, let alone the public. That's insane about the rental agreement. My lease is 3-4 pages in a major U.S. metro. 



> I’m not sure if you are throwing up roadblocks because you’re afraid of the change or you’re just not that into Spain.


I don't feel I'm throwing up roadblocks as much as trying to head off problems. I've had a lot of problems in life so far that were due to improper planning and not thinking stuff through, and I'm trying to reduce that if I can. These are simply real concerns.



> Give it a chance if you can. I’m here in Madrid, if you do come.


Thanks, I appreciate it!


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks for all your answers. I hope I didn’t sound harsh. I too am an anxious planner. I wonder if you could afford a trip to Spain for two purposes: 
1. To open a bank account. Banco Sabadell will allow you to open account with just your passport number.
2. To rent a place. If you do a lot of research ahead of time, you might find something quickly. On Idealista you can draw a circle around the area of Madrid, all the way to Segovia in the north and Toledo in the south. Choose house, not flat, and what you want to pay in euros.


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