# Good news on the FBAR front



## Bevdeforges

No, they haven't eliminated the FBAR, nor have they changed the awful name of the website where you have to e-file your FBARs. But - there is now a new, non-registration based FBAR that individuals can file online. You basically just fill out a pdf form and send that to the Financial Crimes Unit (or whoever it is who is handling FBARs these days).

Certainly should save considerable hassle (of registration) for those of us who do the FBAR filings for friends without Internet access.

The information sheet is attached as a pdf file.
Cheers,
Bev


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## byline

Thanks, Bev! I just did all my calculations and went looking for the FBAR form online, but couldn't find it (they've reorganized their site, and so my old bookmarked links don't work). Thank you for the heads-up! Question: Are we required to to file electronically via the site you linked, or can we still use the old form? http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-FBAR


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## Bevdeforges

According to the link you provided:



> *Effective July 1, 2013 – Electronic filing of FBARs is mandatory*


But the pdf filing for individuals appears to be basically the old forms just submitted as pdf forms. There is supposedly a $500 fine for sending in paper forms - unless you apply ahead of time for an exemption. I was about to advise my friend to send in a request for an exemption when I found the new information on the site.
Cheers,
Bev


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## byline

Thanks, Bev! I thought that was the case; I went ahead and filled out the electronic form. It's a slightly different format from the previous form, but otherwise I didn't encounter any obstacles. The nice thing is that you get an e-mail confirmation once your form is submitted. When I mailed the paper copies in, I tried sending them registered mail ... but apparently no one ever signed for them (which pretty much nullifies the point of sending something registered mail). So I still had to call to verify that my FBAR had been received. That was annoying!


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## BBCWatcher

If a mail article is deemed by the U.S. Postal Service to have been delivered to the (government) recipient, and you have proof of delivery from the USPS, then your legal responsibility is done. That is precisely the purpose of registered mail, or at least one purpose.

This is mostly moot now that FBARs have switched to e-filing, but I thought I'd mention it.


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> According to the link you provided:
> 
> 
> 
> But the pdf filing for individuals appears to be basically the old forms just submitted as pdf forms. There is supposedly a $500 fine for sending in paper forms - unless you apply ahead of time for an exemption. I was about to advise my friend to send in a request for an exemption when I found the new information on the site.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I just filed mine for 2013 - and it seemed to have been designed by Mickey Mouse. It required very careful reading of the instructions, nothing is intuitive (like not putting spaces in UK post codes) and the fields that have to be completed are not obvious either. Having spent 40 years in IT with stuff like this I am amazed at how bad some of this is.

Then I found form FinCEN 114a - the one that you need to complete if you have joint accounts. You have to fill it in and sign it (every year) but they don't want you to send it, just keep it for your own records 

BTW - TurboTax Federal Free has issues with foreign addresses & phone numbers - I had to print it out and file by mail.

Cheers


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## alfacinha

I filed mine online. At first the pdf was a bit confusing, but on some fields if you hover your cursor, some helpful info appears. I'd also recommend finding the instruction form on the IRS site. It further explains the fields and especially where to find conversion rates for your dollar amount.


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## Bevdeforges

rynd2it said:


> I just filed mine for 2013 - and it seemed to have been designed by Mickey Mouse. It required very careful reading of the instructions, nothing is intuitive (like not putting spaces in UK post codes) and the fields that have to be completed are not obvious either. Having spent 40 years in IT with stuff like this I am amazed at how bad some of this is.
> 
> Then I found form FinCEN 114a - the one that you need to complete if you have joint accounts. You have to fill it in and sign it (every year) but they don't want you to send it, just keep it for your own records
> 
> BTW - TurboTax Federal Free has issues with foreign addresses & phone numbers - I had to print it out and file by mail.
> 
> Cheers


What form did you file for 2013 - and how? The FinCEN 114a IS the FBAR form, as far as I know. And the pdf version is to be filled out online and submitted electronically. Haven't messed with it yet, but you download the pdf, fill it out, and then enter that information into the FinCEN 114a screens to submit it. Allegedly there is a $500 fine for sending them paper!

TurboTax Free file works with foreign addresses (at least it did last year) - but it takes some considerable fiddling, and on the free version they aren't inclined to help you much. OTOH, the IRS isn't accepting any e-filed returns until Jan. 31st. If you file now through one of the free-file sites, they are supposed to hold your e-filing and submit them all in bulk on the 31st. (Can't wait to see how that little project goes - since all the free-file sites will be submitting bulk forms all at once!)
Cheers,
Bev


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## rynd2it

Bevdeforges said:


> What form did you file for 2013 - and how? The FinCEN 114a IS the FBAR form, as far as I know. And the pdf version is to be filled out online and submitted electronically. Haven't messed with it yet, but you download the pdf, fill it out, and then enter that information into the FinCEN 114a screens to submit it. Allegedly there is a $500 fine for sending them paper!
> 
> TurboTax Free file works with foreign addresses (at least it did last year) - but it takes some considerable fiddling, and on the free version they aren't inclined to help you much. OTOH, the IRS isn't accepting any e-filed returns until Jan. 31st. If you file now through one of the free-file sites, they are supposed to hold your e-filing and submit them all in bulk on the 31st. (Can't wait to see how that little project goes - since all the free-file sites will be submitting bulk forms all at once!)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Not quite - the FBAR form is FinCEN114; FinCEN 114*a* is the authorisation form for professional preparers or joint account holders to only file one report.

I spent some time again with TurboTax support - the Federal Free version does *not *support foreign addresses and phone numbers on certain areas. Last year it was worse, it accepted the foreign address then populated the 1040 with invalid data.


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## Bevdeforges

Obviously, I have only taken a very cursory look at that FinCEN site. Was contemplating having to fill out that authorisation form for my Italian friend (whose taxes I do - but definitely NOT on a paid basis), but figured with the "simplified" individual thing, we'd just go that route.

Try the TaxAct - it seems to work a bit better for foreign addresses, and it lets you print your forms off in the proper format to mail in as is (well, signed) if the e-filing doesn't work. (Like mine didn't last year.)

Am curious to see what (if anything) the Paris IRS office has to say about the e-filing stuff this year.
Cheers,
Bev


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## byline

BBCWatcher said:


> If a mail article is deemed by the U.S. Postal Service to have been delivered to the (government) recipient, and you have proof of delivery from the USPS, then your legal responsibility is done. That is precisely the purpose of registered mail, or at least one purpose.
> 
> This is mostly moot now that FBARs have switched to e-filing, but I thought I'd mention it.


The problem is, I never got proof of delivery because apparently no one ever signed for my particular piece of mail. I mailed it on Feb. 20, and then I waited ... and waited. Kept checking online (both Canada Post and USPS), and all I could see was that "International shipment has left Canada" (on the Canada Post site) and (on the USPS site) that on Feb. 24 it had been "Processed through USPS sort facility." But there was no mention of it having been signed for or delivered. And it stayed that way until finally in March I asked Canada Post to search for it; they notified me in May that they couldn't locate it.

It's weird; anything I sent via registered mail to Ogden, Utah, was signed for, and so I had that confirmation that it was successfully delivered. I expected the same thing for Detroit, but anything I sent via registered mail there seemed to fall into a black hole, at least as far as postal record-keeping went ... and that was true for _both_ sides of the border.

Of course, the whole point of going to the trouble and expense of sending something registered mail is that somebody at the other end is supposed to sign for it so that I know it was received. But that never happened with any of my mailings to Detroit. When I called the IRS in June to see if my FBAR had been received, I explained that. The attendant said, "Do you know how many pieces of mail we receive? It's impossible to keep track of every one." Well, yes ... but that wasn't my point. My point was that my own efforts to keep track of my own FBAR mailing were stymied because there was no record of anyone signing for it. Anyway, she did check, and they did receive and process my FBAR. But I could've done without the expense of the phone call, and the drama at the other end.

The next year, I gave up and sent my FBAR via regular mail. I saved a few dollars, and the end result was the same.


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## BBCWatcher

Again, _signing_ for delivery is not a requirement to transfer your responsibility to the receiving agency. Send it registered mail, get proof of mailing, and you're off the hook. Signature or not at the other end. Even the government (U.S. Postal Service or IRS) lose your mail, that's their problem, and they cannot charge you extra for their screwup. (They can ask you to refile and resend the same payment you owe.)

This is a moot issue now with Treasury for FBARs because of electronic filing.


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## byline

Which is why I guess I never should have bothered with registered mail. I have proof that I've sent everything ... but I wanted to know that it was actually received. Oh, well. As you say, now with the e-filing, that renders the point moot. Which is fine by me!


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## BBCWatcher

I have a little bit of advice regarding filing your FBARs online at U.S. FinCEN's BSA E-Filing Web Site. Your mileage may vary, but this advice seems to have worked.

1. Don't wait until the last minute (June 30) if this is the first time you've e-filed a FBAR. It's not a user-friendly Web site to say the least.

2. You must have only the proprietary Adobe Acrobat Reader (Version 9.5 or higher) installed. Not somebody else's PDF reader (I tried a couple), not even Adobe Acrobat (full version). Consequently you must have a Microsoft Windows, Apple Macintosh, or Linux PC available since those are the only three types of systems that can run the Adobe Acrobat Reader software that is required to file.

3. You should create a BSA E-Filer user ID ("Become a BSA E-Filer"). The FBAR electronic form available without registering (through the shorter path) seems to have a bug in requiring a state even when you enter a foreign country address. I tried filing with an APO/FPO "state" and an otherwise correct non-U.S. address, but that didn't work. So apply for an ID, sign onto the BSA Web site, then click on the FBAR filing link on the left side menu.

4. The form itself is pretty straightforward. You'll need to sign it with a PIN, and your PIN is also available from a menu choice after you sign onto your BSA e-filing Web account.

5. I was unsuccessful filing that particular form (the one accessed after logging onto the BSA e-filing site with my ID) directly. Instead, what I had to do was click on the Save button in the form to save a PDF copy (a good idea anyway). Then I accessed the streamlined FBAR filing site here, the one that is supposed to allow filing a FBAR without registering, and uploaded the PDF through that path. That seems to have worked, though I haven't received final confirmation yet.

6. You can track the status of your FBAR filing by logging onto your BSA e-filing account. There's a status tracking menu choice on the left side after you log on. But note that "Accepted" doesn't actually mean your FBAR is, well, accepted. It means the front-end system accepted your FBAR form, not that FinCEN (U.S. Treasury) has done anything with it. In 24 hours or so that status should change to "Transmitted," and then it should (slowly) progress through the system and (eventually) return an acknowledgment that everything is good. If it you make it to "Transmitted" you're probably OK.

7. Save a copy of the final e-mail acknowledging that everything is good and done, along with a copy of the filing itself. That'll be your proof of completed FBAR filing.

Yes, this is absolutely awful user interface work -- let's just stipulate that. The Treasury Department needs to develop and deliver a consumer-friendly, Web-standard (functional on iPads, iPhones, Androids, etc.) FBAR filing system. I would urge anybody who's listening in a position of authority to allow continued paper filing until this system is fixed, because it just isn't working and isn't even fixable in its present state for this particular target audience of individuals. There is a batch interface, so maybe an enterprising person or organization can develop a usable interface that way.


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## Bevdeforges

Not sure why you seem to have run into the problems you did, but I filed my FBAR last week without registering on the site and all went pretty smoothly.

I used the Report Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts link - not the Become a BSAE Filer link. Admittedly the instructions aren't the clearest, but you actually have to download the PDF form onto your own computer first, fill it in there, and then upload it in complete form to the filing site in order to submit.

That's actually preferable anyhow, since I need to take a copy of the pdf form over to my friend's house next week so we can fill it out together and then I'll upload it for her from my computer. (She has no computer, no Internet access and no smartphone.)

Can't remember what I did when signing in, but I suspect I just used the APO Europe option if it insisted on something in the "state" box. That does not appear anywhere on the form I ultimately filed.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Well, I got a "Rejected" status fairly quickly after following that shorter path. Your mileage may vary.

The FBAR form available if you're a "BSA E-Filer" is slightly different and doesn't have that APO/FPO bug, but it also requires you to electronically sign the form with an 8 digit PIN. That 8 digit PIN is retrievable when you're signed onto your account -- there's a menu option. Then you can file that form via the non-BSA E-Filer path, and that worked for me. It went all the way through processing, and I got the e-mail back indicating it went all the way through to Treasury.

Either way, we can agree these user interfaces are awful, right?


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## Charlot

Bevdeforges said:


> Can't remember what I did when signing in, but I suspect I just used the APO Europe option if it insisted on something in the "state" box. That does not appear anywhere on the form I ultimately filed.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Hi Bev,

Could you spell out what the APO Europe option is? I googled and only got as far as APO AE 09xxx?

Thanks, Charlot

P.S. Also, thanks for alerting us to the new FBAR e-filing.


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## Bevdeforges

Any time they ask you for a "state" you should scroll down to the end of the list of states presented. If there is a "foreign" option, take it. But if there is no "foreign" option, then select the APO option - APO Europe, if that exists, otherwise the vanilla APO option. (That's what worked for me.) 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Charlot

Bevdeforges said:


> Any time they ask you for a "state" you should scroll down to the end of the list of states presented. If there is a "foreign" option, take it. But if there is no "foreign" option, then select the APO option - APO Europe, if that exists, otherwise the vanilla APO option. (That's what worked for me.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


I've taken the foreign or N/A option before, but never seen APO pop up anywhere. Thanks Bev, after taking the time to complete forms, I like to avoid surprises at the end.

Charlot


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## TOrner

Charlot said:


> Could you spell out what the APO Europe option is? I googled and only got as far as APO AE 09xxx?


Charlot - we had an APO address while stationed in Japan with the US military. There was an APO Europe and an APO Pacific (APO AE or APO AP). I understood them to mean Armed Forces Post Office. It was not for civilian use by folks not associated with the US govt stationed overseas. Our mail in Japan was sent to APO AP, plus our post office box number.

Terry


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## SuzieF

In plan on doing my fbars this weekend. I have to go back six years as I'm doing the streamlined IRS option. 

Is there a way that I can do the fbars and save each year to my comp individually and then send them all in the next day? Seems I read somewhere about a save option?


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## SuzieF

SuzieF said:


> In plan on doing my fbars this weekend. I have to go back six years as I'm doing the streamlined IRS option.
> 
> Is there a way that I can do the fbars and save each year to my comp individually and then send them all in the next day? Seems I read somewhere about a save option?


What I am trying to ask is, can I start a form.. Save it on my comp and bring it up another day to finish and submit?


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## SuzieF

Charlot said:


> Hi Bev,
> 
> Could you spell out what the APO Europe option is? I googled and only got as far as APO AE 09xxx?
> 
> Thanks, Charlot
> 
> P.S. Also, thanks for alerting us to the new FBAR e-filing.



Once I pulled the correct country from the drop down menu(canada) the state option automatically gave me the correct province choices. So set the correct country first before you try doing the state.


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## Bevdeforges

SuzieF said:


> What I am trying to ask is, can I start a form.. Save it on my comp and bring it up another day to finish and submit?


If you're just doing a single FBAR I'm pretty sure you can do that. Not so sure about the ability to do that if you want to file multiple forms at the same time.
Cheers,
Bev


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## DebbyL

How does the signature work on that form? I just filled it out & clicked sign... it didn't get my signature but it says its signed... is my name enough?


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## SuzieF

That's what mine did too! I havnt tried submitting yet tho.. I'm too chicken! Lol


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## Bevdeforges

If they say you've "signed" it by clicking, then I'm assuming you have. In a day or two you should get back a "FBAR accepted" mail message, and then a little later, a "Fincen Acknowledgment". Hang onto those in case there are any questions.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

I have a couple more reports on ways to file FBARs electronically.

1. It does appear to be possible to file FBARs using 100% free software, specifically Linux and the Adobe Acrobat Reader Version 9.5.5 for Linux. The Lubuntu distribution of Linux is a good choice if you're looking for a simple, easy to install version of Linux that works on a very wide range of PCs and Macs, including PCs with limited memory. With Lubuntu you would download the ".deb" installable version of the Adobe Acrobat Reader for Linux from Adobe's Web site and install that. Please note that Version 9.5.5 may not contain the latest security fixes, so you should not use Adobe's Acrobat Reader beyond FBAR filing.

Lubuntu comes with the Firefox Web browser, and that works fine for accessing the FinCEN Web site. You'll have to download the FBAR PDF file, open it in Adobe Acrobat Reader, fill it out and electronically sign the form, save it, then upload it to the FinCEN/BSA Web site using your Web browser again. But it works, and this path does not require paying for any software such as Microsoft Windows.

2. I tried using Safari on an iPad and the Adobe Reader for iOS to work with the FBAR form. That doesn't work -- the Adobe Reader for iOS does not have the functionality required to work with the FBAR form.

To repeat my editorial comment, the U.S. Treasury should not be requiring a specific vendor's (Adobe's) proprietary software to file public reports, even if that software does not come with an end user fee. The BSA Web site should have a simple Web-based form, accessible directly from a wide variety of Web browsers, to file FBARs. The Acrobat Reader prerequisite makes it very difficult for users, particularly now mobile Internet users, to file FBARs. That's unacceptable for a broad, public audience.

Until this problem is fixed, my recommendation would be that the U.S. Treasury continue to allow paper filing. Valid reasons for paper filing would include difficulty installing or using Adobe Acrobat Reader, unavailability of a PC or Mac (the only devices apparently supported for current filing), or other technical difficulties in filing.


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## Bevdeforges

There is still an "exception process" to the electronic filing - though you have to send a letter to the Fincen people asking for an exception and explaining your reason.

Not sure, but I kind of assumed that the Adobe Reader software was required because the form is essentially one of their "fillable" forms. Not sure if those work with the other pdf reading software or not - but that may be the stumbling block.

Hey, I'm of the opinion that they should allow on-line free filing the same way - a form you fill in online rather than requiring you to go through a commercial tax prep site like they do, with limits on who can file for free. They don't seem to be in any hurry to change any of that. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## maz57

I agree you shouldn't have to install a new O.S. or proprietary software to file a simple FBAR. What they really should do is scrap FBAR altogether; Form 8938 is quite enough. But that would require a burst of common sense, something that seems to be in short supply these days. I almost feel sorry for the career bureaucrats who are tasked with implementing the hairbrained crap that Congress comes up with. 

As a long time Linux user, I recently gave up and returned to Windows (7). Linux used to have distinct advantages (simple, free, secure), but the latest versions seem to have squandered all of that. I finally got tired of dealing with all the incompatibilities for no real advantage. At least stuff works now.


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## Bevdeforges

*Interesting...*

Just to let folks know, I just received a request to fill out a customer survey regarding the FinCen e-filing site.

And, I did pass along a couple of the "suggestions" and comments that have been made on the board here:

- change the name of the agency - we're not criminals
- make a browser form rather than requiring Adobe pdf reader
- e-filing only requirement itself (I still have to do my friend's FBAR for her)

If you've done your FBAR online, let us know if you got one of these surveys to fill out. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## ForeignBody

Bevdeforges said:


> Just to let folks know, I just received a request to fill out a customer survey regarding the FinCen e-filing site.
> 
> And, I did pass along a couple of the "suggestions" and comments that have been made on the board here:
> 
> - change the name of the agency - we're not criminals
> - make a browser form rather than requiring Adobe pdf reader
> - e-filing only requirement itself (I still have to do my friend's FBAR for her)
> 
> If you've done your FBAR online, let us know if you got one of these surveys to fill out.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I also received a survey. It seemed to have little relating to individual filing, more about batch filing. My main comment was about the instructions which are so long and poorly organized.

I'm not sure I agree with your comment about browser form, rather than pdf. I definitely want a file that can be saved.


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## Bevdeforges

We've had a couple folks here on the forum raise the issue of a simple browser form rather than the pdf - so I passed it along with my questionnaire.

Here in France, we file our income taxes online using a direct browser form that follows pretty closely the printed forms they distribute and includes the pre-filled information that comes with your printed forms - as well as carrying over some of the information you reported the previous year (like foreign bank accounts and information about foreign assurance vie). 

After you have filed the form, you get a certificate verifying that you did file it, and re-capping the key figures included on the form. It's actually a very nice system and pretty easy to use.
Cheers,
Bev


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## DebbyL

Hi,
OK... so electronically signing has nothing to do with my actual signature? I am just saying "I sign this" when I electronically sign it by clicking the button?? If so, that's easy, but if not, I'm totally at a loss as to how to actually 'sign' this thing.


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## Bevdeforges

DebbyL said:


> Hi,
> OK... so electronically signing has nothing to do with my actual signature? I am just saying "I sign this" when I electronically sign it by clicking the button?? If so, that's easy, but if not, I'm totally at a loss as to how to actually 'sign' this thing.


Basically, yes, that's how the FBAR site works.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Omater

*Signing Authority*

I just about finished my FBAR report per BSA E-Filing. Everything went well until I got to the section to report my signing authority on the Canadian corporation I work for. On past reports I was not required to give account numbers or account balances on this account, just a name and address. Has something changed? It is coming back with errors and they say I have to provide this information!

Is there a way around this or is the US Government trying to guarantee that I lose my job and never get hired for another one in a foreign country?

Please advise if there is a way around this!


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## Bevdeforges

Omater said:


> I just about finished my FBAR report per BSA E-Filing. Everything went well until I got to the section to report my signing authority on the Canadian corporation I work for. On past reports I was not required to give account numbers or account balances on this account, just a name and address. Has something changed? It is coming back with errors and they say I have to provide this information!
> 
> Is there a way around this or is the US Government trying to guarantee that I lose my job and never get hired for another one in a foreign country?
> 
> Please advise if there is a way around this!


I only filled in the parts required - i.e. the name and address of the employer. No account numbers, no maximum balance. They may want some form of taxpayer ID for your employer. I gave them the registration number of the company (something that appears on all invoices from the company). 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Omater

Thanks, Bev. You are STILL the best!

Did you give them the corporate owner names?


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## Bevdeforges

Omater said:


> Thanks, Bev. You are STILL the best!
> 
> Did you give them the corporate owner names?


The name of the company, yes. Past that, they don't ask for anything.
Cheers,
Bev


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## city

when is the FBAR due? 

If you have the aggregate balance in your account as of 10 March 2014 are you required to file it by June 30 2014 or June 30 2015?

Sorry if a silly question but I am having a hard time finding this out.


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## BBCWatcher

Your FBAR (FinCEN Form 114) is due on the June 30th after the calendar year you are reporting. Thus your report for calendar year 2013 is due June 30, 2014. Your report for calendar year 2014 is due June 30, 2015. And so on.

Nothing relating to events in 2014 should be in the report you submit by June 30, 2014. Each FBAR is for events/circumstances within one calendar year.


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## Bevdeforges

city said:


> when is the FBAR due?
> 
> If you have the aggregate balance in your account as of 10 March 2014 are you required to file it by June 30 2014 or June 30 2015?
> 
> Sorry if a silly question but I am having a hard time finding this out.


The FBAR for 2013 is due by June 30 2014. The FBAR for 2014 is due June 30 2015.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Thanhvegas

Bevdeforges said:


> No, they haven't eliminated the FBAR, nor have they changed the awful name of the website where you have to e-file your FBARs. But - there is now a new, non-registration based FBAR that individuals can file online. You basically just fill out a pdf form and send that to the Financial Crimes Unit (or whoever it is who is handling FBARs these days).
> 
> Certainly should save considerable hassle (of registration) for those of us who do the FBAR filings for friends without Internet access.
> 
> The information sheet is attached as a pdf file.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Hi bev and all other,

I am new here and need badly help in filing my income tax return as a green card holder from Germany. I have just yesterday learned about FinCEN and foreign bank accounts...
My first tax year is 2013 as My green card was issued in June 2013.
What is the deadline for filling the form FinCEN114?
Great appreciation for any help from all of you.
Best regards,
Thanhvegas,


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## Bevdeforges

The deadline for the FBAR (via FINCEN 114) is June 30th. The form itself is pretty easy to fill out. Just download the pdf form to your computer, fill it out on your computer (i.e. NOT online) and save it. Then you go back to the FinCen site and upload it in order to file it.
Cheers,
Bev


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## DonMurphyCanada

In reference to the original post, can we as individuals still create an account and file the forms using that process?


I see having an account could have its benefits to know where you are in the process. Apparently you were able to track the FBAR when using this older system.

Has anyone used the new form from the streamlined process and used the old process where an account was used to submit FBAR?


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## ForeignBody

DonMurphyCanada said:


> In reference to the original post, can we as individuals still create an account and file the forms using that process?
> 
> 
> I see having an account could have its benefits to know where you are in the process. Apparently you were able to track the FBAR when using this older system.
> 
> Has anyone used the new form from the streamlined process and used the old process where an account was used to submit FBAR?


You don't need to register and you don't need to track anything. Just fill out the form, submit it and you get an immediate receipt.


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## DonMurphyCanada

I understand I don't need to but if registering and submitting in this way gives me more visibility into what is happening even if it just a simple form has been processed message or something like that I would still be interested in using this method.


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## ForeignBody

DonMurphyCanada said:


> I understand I don't need to but if registering and submitting in this way gives me more visibility into what is happening even if it just a simple form has been processed message or something like that I would still be interested in using this method.


I don't think that the (old) system is now available to individual filers. What else is there to track, other than that they have received it? There wasn't anything more than that under the old system.


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## Bevdeforges

DonMurphyCanada said:


> I understand I don't need to but if registering and submitting in this way gives me more visibility into what is happening even if it just a simple form has been processed message or something like that I would still be interested in using this method.


When you file as an individual (i.e. filling out, saving and then uploading the pdf form), they do send you two e-mails - one to say that your FBAR has been received, and then a second to acknowledge that it has been "accepted."
Cheers,
Bev


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## santoki

Hi Everyone,

New to the forum and could use a quick hand with the FBAR. I am doing this on behalf of my wife who is an American citizen. Her first tax year is 2013, so I'm just getting a hang of how to file everything. I think I have most of it figured out, but I was curious about one aspect of the FBAR:

Do I, as a Canadian citizen, have to disclose all the details of our JOINTLY owned bank account? The section that asks for the Principal Owner of the Joint Account has space to fill out my information. Is it necessary for me, a citizen of another country, to give all of my banking details because we are joint owners on the account?

If so, do I also have to put my information on the FinCen114A (even though we keep it for our own records)?


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## Bevdeforges

Only your wife has to fill out the FBAR form, and yes, she should report all accounts she holds in joint name in the appropriate section. She should indicate you as the principal joint owner (i.e. joint owner with her) - but you can just indicate that you are her "spouse" and where it asks for SSN or ITIN, you just put "NRA" to indicate that you have no ITIN.
Cheers,
Bev


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## santoki

Bevdeforges said:


> Only your wife has to fill out the FBAR form, and yes, she should report all accounts she holds in joint name in the appropriate section. She should indicate you as the principal joint owner (i.e. joint owner with her) - but you can just indicate that you are her "spouse" and where it asks for SSN or ITIN, you just put "NRA" to indicate that you have no ITIN.
> Cheers,
> Bev


The new form allows a spot for you to fill in a Foreign SSN. Should I simply leave that space blank? What exactly does NRA stand for?

Also, there doesn't seem to be a space to indicate our relationship.


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## BBCWatcher

santoki said:


> Also, there doesn't seem to be a space to indicate our relationship.


There isn't. Bev is recommending you put "spouse" in the name block, or that you could. I do not recommend that since there is no instructional or regulatory support that I can find for not answering that question truthfully if you know it, and surely you know your spouse's name.


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## Bevdeforges

Don't have time to find it just at the moment, but I have seen advice to the effect that one should indicate "(spouse)" alongside the name on the joint holder section of the form - if you choose to indicate the name, that it. Not sure how that flies on the new electronic form, but that was recommended on the old paper ones. In some jurisdictions, there are slightly different terms that apply to an account held jointly by spouses than by a joint account held by two people not married to each other. I suppose that is what they're getting at.
Cheers,
Bev


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## americaninparis

HELP! I can't get PDF file to register anything. Adobe Acrobat opens the filing and I can type in my name....but whatever other box I click produces nothing. No way to save....or send....or file! Is anyone else having this problem?


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## BBCWatcher

Are you using a recent version of Adobe Acrobat Reader? It has to be Adobe Acrobat Reader -- specifically Adobe, specifically Reader, and recent. The mobile version (iOS, Android) does not work.


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## Bevdeforges

americaninparis said:


> HELP! I can't get PDF file to register anything. Adobe Acrobat opens the filing and I can type in my name....but whatever other box I click produces nothing. No way to save....or send....or file! Is anyone else having this problem?


If you read the instructions literally, you'll see that you have to download the form onto your own computer, save it, then open it on your computer to fill it in. (This is where the proper version of Adobe Acrobat comes in.)

You save the completed form to your computer and then you upload that (like an attachment) to the submit screen/function.

Apparently you can't just fill out the form directly from the website.
Cheers,
Bev


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## diharv

Just filed my 2013 FBAR online. I don't feel very good about it however , like I have been massively violated.I just hope the system is secure. Alot of confidential financial info put out there online , hopefully not vulnerable to enterprising hackers. Am putting alot of faith in the US govt to keep all of this info private and secure. Does anyone else feel like I do after filing this report ?


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## Nononymous

I'm feeling very secure. On account of not filing.


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## BBCWatcher

diharv said:


> Alot of confidential financial info put out there online , hopefully not vulnerable to enterprising hackers.


Confidential? Not actually. Banks, credit bureaus, credit card companies, brokerages, the government, and even merchants already (usually) have much more information than you just reported. _At most_ the information is "sensitive."


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## diharv

BBCWatcher said:


> Confidential? Not actually. Banks, credit bureaus, credit card companies, brokerages, the government, and even merchants already (usually) have much more information than you just reported. _At most_ the information is "sensitive."


I really can't think of any one entity that is in possesion of ALL of my bank ,security education and retirement accts along with names ,acct numbers and balances other than the one govt I just gave it all to. I would think that people have had their identities stolen with less info and I don't think my concern should be dismissed as frivolous.


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## BBCWatcher

Credit bureaus and governments typically, routinely, already have all the information you reported -- for credit rating determinations, anti-money laundering efforts, and tax compliance purposes, as examples.

I am not dismissing your concern, and I am not characterizing it. I'm just passing along the facts about who already has (more) such information. Identity theft is a concern, but it already exists.


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## Bevdeforges

diharv said:


> I really can't think of any one entity that is in possesion of ALL of my bank ,security education and retirement accts along with names ,acct numbers and balances other than the one govt I just gave it all to. I would think that people have had their identities stolen with less info and I don't think my concern should be dismissed as frivolous.


The US is not the only country to ask for this information these days. Here in France, we must report foreign bank and assurance vie accounts to the government (i.e. the fisc, equivalent to the IRS in the US). True, we don't need to give them the balance information, but we are required to give the name and address of the institution and the account numbers or other identifiers.

It's all part of a drive on the part of the OECD to try to combat tax evasion and money laundering on the international scene. And we'll be seeing more of it rather than less in the coming years, I'm afraid.
Cheers,
Bev


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## SuzieF

Bevdeforges said:


> The US is not the only country to ask for this information these days. Here in France, we must report foreign bank and assurance vie accounts to the government (i.e. the fisc, equivalent to the IRS in the US). True, we don't need to give them the balance information, but we are required to give the name and address of the institution and the account numbers or other identifiers.
> 
> It's all part of a drive on the part of the OECD to try to combat tax evasion and money laundering on the international scene. And we'll be seeing more of it rather than less in the coming years, I'm afraid.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I can understand your country of residency asking for FFI info, but why should a country I have not lived in for a dozen years nor had any income from need to know this. the FFI they speak of is my neighborhood bank I can walk to... Feel violated? Totally did


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## Bevdeforges

SuzieF said:


> I can understand your country of residency asking for FFI info, but why should a country I have not lived in for a dozen years nor had any income from need to know this. the FFI they speak of is my neighborhood bank I can walk to... Feel violated? Totally did


No one here will argue that the tax laws in the US aren't a bit, um, how shall I put this... "overbearing" especially as related to "accidental Americans" or those living overseas with few, if any, ties back to The Old Country. But you have to evaluate your ability to fly under the radar and then you take your chances however you can.
Cheers,
Bev


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## HillbillyCanuck

Bevdeforges said:


> Can't remember what I did when signing in, but I suspect I just used the APO Europe option if it insisted on something in the "state" box. That does not appear anywhere on the form I ultimately filed.
> Cheers,
> Bev


What I discovered is that if I first chose a country from the country list, the state list changed to use the appropriate "states" for the country I chose. I used "Canada" for the country and after making that choice, the state box contained a list of Canada's provinces.


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## HillbillyCanuck

BBCWatcher said:


> I have a couple more reports on ways to file FBARs electronically.
> 
> 1. It does appear to be possible to file FBARs using 100% free software, specifically Linux and the Adobe Acrobat Reader Version 9.5.5 for Linux. The Lubuntu distribution of Linux is a good choice if you're looking for a simple, easy to install version of Linux that works on a very wide range of PCs and Macs, including PCs with limited memory. With Lubuntu you would download the ".deb" installable version of the Adobe Acrobat Reader for Linux from Adobe's Web site and install that. Please note that Version 9.5.5 may not contain the latest security fixes, so you should not use Adobe's Acrobat Reader beyond FBAR filing.
> 
> .


I wish I'd seen this post earlier. I installed the Linux version of Adobe reader (version 9) from Adobe's web site onto an OpenSuse 13.1 machine and after filling out and signing a 15 page FBAR, I tried to submit it only to be told that the form wasn't signed.

I saved the FBAR where it could be accessed from a Windows 7 system (dual boot) and booted into Windows 7. I opened the form with Adobe Reader XI and signed it again. This time the submission was successful.

Moral: the Linux version of Adobe Reader from Adobe's web site won't work for FBARs.


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## BBCWatcher

It did for me. Evidently your mileage may vary.


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## jbr439

Worked for me as well. Only wrinkle was some kind of warning when it opened the doc.
Acrobat Reader version: 9.5.5
OS: Debian 7.1


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## MCV

*fbar*

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and this is my first time posting. I was astonished to have recently discovered the FBAR filing requirements. I have been an expat for 14.5 years, no income, as a stay-at-home mom, NRA spouse. I have a joint checking account with my husband. If I understand the aggregate value threshold correctly of 10k or above, I need to research our joint checking account for the past 6 yrs to see if/when we may have had that amount or more as a balance in our joint checking , which I am guessing it may have had at least once or twice over the past 6 yrs, and then back file online for those years. Am I correct? How do I send an explanation that my "noncompliance" was not "willful"? And can I proceed without the very sick feeling I have in my stomach after realizing I have not been in compliance--ever. Shocking and very scary. Thanks in advance.


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## maz57

Congratulations, you have just experienced what is commonly referred to as your OMG (Oh My God!) moment. Take a deep breath, sit down, and relax. Thousands have been exactly where you find yourself now. 

Before you do anything rash, take some time to properly research your situation (it sounds as if you have been). 

Firstly, I wouldn't worry too much about past years. If its difficult for you to track down all those old bank records, it will be even harder for the US government to do so. And they would have to have a good reason to do so, which they don't. Obviously they don't have tax returns to compare those missing FBARs with. As for a reason for non-compliance, not knowing about FBAR is about as good as it gets. It is not something one could ever imagine would be required. (There is a reference to FBAR on one of the Schedules of the Form 1040, but if you are not required to file a US return in the first place there is no way you could know that.)

Secondly, the question really is what to do about 2014 and beyond. (The FBAR deadline for 2013 was June 30, 2014 and you have missed that one as well.) There are a couple of things you could do but making sure that joint account never touches $10,000.00 is the easiest solution. (BTW that is $10,000 US so somewhat more in Canadian dollars.) You really need to decide if you even want to "out" yourself to the US government by filing an FBAR. Personally, I'd be inclined to fly under the radar for a while until all this FATCA business shakes itself out. It sounds as if you would be able to do this completely legally with minor adjustments to your personal finances.

Meanwhile I'd be working on getting Canadian citizenship if you have not already done so. Only you can decide how much the right to return to the US (i.e. keeping US citizenship) is worth to you, But being a Canadian in Canada, dual or not, is an extra level of protection for future US tax issues.

Finally, don't beat yourself up over this. The vast majority of US citizens don't know about the Citizenship Based taxation the US practices. The US government has done a spectacularly bad job of educating its people about the whole business. I lived 65 years (40 in Canada) before I stumbled upon it quite by accident. It is totally counter-intuitive and defies explanation; you are not a bad person because you didn't know. You have until next June 30 (the deadline for the 2014 FBAR) to figure out how you want to proceed.

Meanwhile you can rest easy, an IRS agent will not be knocking on your door anytime soon!


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## Nononymous

Unless your checking account balances go very, very, very high, your account will not be flagged by FATCA anytime soon. So relax and decide if or when you want to fill out FBAR forms for the joint accounts. Also be sure to ask your Canadian husband how he feels about his bank data being shared with the US government - he should have a say in the matter. Don't worry about penalties, no evidence that they are being imposed in these simple cases, and in any case Canada has thoughtfully refused to collect them.


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## MCV

Thank you so much for your comments and suggestions. I've shed a lot of tears imagining horrible repercussions for essentially not disclosing my foreign spouses financials (he is a French citizen and we relocated from France some years ago), which is what it boils down to. If I understand it all, by virtue of my US citizenship, if I ever have access to 10k or more, I have to hand that info over to the government to prove that I am not a criminal and to help the government find criminals and if I don't, I am considered one myself. Sorry to sound dramatic but it has been an insane few days for me as I've tried to figure out all this stuff. Thank you again so much. I'll think about your suggestions. Best regards.


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## Nononymous

What is your status in Canada? US national and French national, or does someone have Canadian citizenship? Likely not a factor at all in your case but there are some additional protections available to Canadian citizens.

Anyway, relax, it's no huge deal. If you can keep your total joint account balances under $10k, you can (legally!) ignore this and stay off the radar. Or get all compliant, which doesn't sound like it will be a big deal (you can guess at the amounts and estimate high to be safe - there's no tax implications) at the cost of the US government knowing where and who you are.


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## Bevdeforges

Agree with all that has been said here so far. Frankly, I'd only worry about 2014 and going forward. There are several ways to determine the "high balance" that is supposed to be reported, and if your account has only been flirting with the $10,000 threshold, it's next to impossible that they'll bother going back in time to find this out unless you've been hiding far bigger and more convoluted financial investments.
Cheers,
Bev


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## MCV

Dear Maz57, Nonoym, & Bev,

Both my husband and I and our children are Canadian Permanent Residents. We are applying for citizenship (takes 2 yrs). My husband is a French citizen and has no US tax obligations. I do not and have not met the minimum threshold for tax filing since moving abroad in 2000 because I have not worked, nor have I claimed any Child Tax benefits by electing to add my husband as a Resident Alien, which would have fully exposed his finances and obligated him. These are all terms that I have come to understand very recently. Before that, I was a wife and mother raising her children being provided for by her husband. We own a home that we live in, it is mortgaged, we have a joint checking account and my husband has a retirement plan through his employer. That's it. There are a couple of moments where we potentially crossed the threshold of 10k--being when we purchased our home, but I believe the down payment came from his personal savings account to which I am not a signatory; and the second possibility might be a year or two where his yearly bonus would have been momentarily deposited before going into his RRSP or paid out on our Canadian taxes. I appreciate this forum very much. Feeling less alone.


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## Nononymous

Some folks suggest that you can pretend that the month-end balance was the high one for the month, so if the limit was exceeded for a few days only mid-month (i.e. a quick transfer of funds) it can be safely ignored. 

Honestly, if you're talking about maybe once or twice your joint account(s) breached $10k for a few days, I'd go back to ignoring this.

Others may tell you to never break the law, even in your heart. But really I'm sure you'll be fine.


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## BBCWatcher

I continue to be amazed by this "advice."

Yes, it's true, it's extremely unlikely noncompliance in these circumstances would result in problems, at least for back years. But that's exactly backwards in my view. Compliance is an absolute defense, and if you can't sleep at night then just file! As mentioned in other threads, there's currently no penalty for voluntary, unprompted, uncomplicated late FBAR filings. If you're upset, why not take the deal on offer? It's a good deal! This isn't a contest to see what you can get away with (a lot is the correct answer, agreed).


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## maz57

BBCWatcher said:


> I continue to be amazed by this "advice."
> 
> Yes, it's true, it's extremely unlikely noncompliance in these circumstances would result in problems, at least for back years. But that's exactly backwards in my view. Compliance is an absolute defense, and if you can't sleep at night then just file! As mentioned in other threads, there's currently no penalty for voluntary, unprompted, uncomplicated late FBAR filings. If you're upset, why not take the deal on offer? It's a good deal! This isn't a contest to see what you can get away with (a lot is the correct answer, agreed).


Ah, but there is a penalty for late FBAR filings in this situation. The penalty is that the person is placing themselves squarely back on the US radar for absolutely no reason. Its not even clear there was a FBAR requirement in the first place and it would be considerable trouble (and quite likely expense) to access old bank statements which depending on the format still might not even settle the question anyway. If they were that close to the threshold it could even depend on the exchange rate at the exact time.

This person doesn't need a defense; she has done nothing wrong. She is merely scared to death by all the US threats and intimidation. She has no tax filing requirement and simple adjustments to her finances will relieve her of FBAR going forward as well. The long arm of the IRS is not going to reach into Canada and grab her.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.


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## BBCWatcher

That's just factually incorrect, Maz57. It is a technical violation of U.S. law when U.S. persons do not file FBARs they are obliged to file. The poster apparently wants to come into compliance with the law, and there are no penalties to come into compliance. So why not?

If you think she ought to make a political statement through ignoring U.S. law, say so. Don't be so obtuse. Maybe she thinks that's a good idea, and maybe she doesn't. But I don't think you should be misrepresenting the facts here.


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## Nononymous

I'm all in favour of political statements. I'm making one. Anonymously of course.

The other factor you need to consider is the wishes of the non-US spouse. Sounds like he's not keen, on principle, to send any data south of the border. Rather like my wife.


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## Bevdeforges

"Might" "maybe" "may have" "could have" - I seriously believe that there is no intent to evade reporting requirements here. Now that you are aware of the requirements, keep an eye on the balances in that joint account and in a year when the balance exceeds $10,000 on one of the month end statements, make a note to yourself that you should file an FBAR at the end of the year.

They will NOT bother you about an account that may have exceeded the threshold balance for a few days, or by a thousand (or more) at some point. There will be years you file an FBAR and years where you don't. They really don't seem to monitor things that closely and don't have the staffing to bother with minor "technical" violations like that.

Perfect compliance is perhaps admirable, but hardly expected. Now, if you win the lottery and plunk several hundred thousand into that account, then yes, you probably had better report it (and the lottery win). There is enough scare mongering going on surrounding FBAR and FATCA (truly, the scarier of these two programs). Let's be reasonable here.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Well, OK, but there's (also) no penalty for over-reporting, and the poster wants to sleep well at night. So let her sleep! It really is OK to file. (Did I even have to write that? Apparently so. Geez.)


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## maz57

BBCWatcher said:


> That's just factually incorrect, Maz57. It is a technical violation of U.S. law when U.S. persons do not file FBARs they are obliged to file. The poster apparently wants to come into compliance with the law, and there are no penalties to come into compliance. So why not?
> 
> If you think she ought to make a political statement through ignoring U.S. law, say so. Don't be so obtuse. Maybe she thinks that's a good idea, and maybe she doesn't. But I don't think you should be misrepresenting the facts here.


She doesn't even know if she is obliged to file and if so which years. She doesn't "want" to come into compliance; she's scared to death the US government is going to destroy her family. There is an injustice here and she is naturally shocked that her birth country attacks its expats in this manner. Myself (and others) are reassuring her that not filing is an option. In the eyes of the US government she has already made a political statement by (1) moving out of the US, (2) marrying an NRA, and (3) applying for Canadian citizenship. 

The "facts are simple enough. She can follow your "advice" and comply. She can follow the "advice" of others including myself and not comply. Both involve very little risk but not zero risk. I put "advice " in quotes because I don't think anyone is telling her what she should do; all are merely explaining the situation and possible outcomes based on our experiences and observations. Our personal biases inevitably come to light and in time she will find her own way forward with whatever she is comfortable with.

Just for the record, I'll state I don't give a damn about US law; I don't live there. The US thinks (and acts) as if it rules the world but it doesn't.


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## Nononymous

(Sorry to be talking about you in the third person, you who recently asked a question.)

I'd say that "nor have I claimed any Child Tax benefits by electing to add my husband as a Resident Alien, which would have fully exposed his finances and obligated him" suggests pretty strongly that protecting the spouse's privacy is a high priority for this couple. In which case the advice to not file if they only exceeded the $10k limit once or twice over the years is pretty sound. I'm not sure that filing FBARs would allow them to sleep better at night - quite possibly the reverse.

Non-Americans aren't always entirely rational in their distrust of the US government. (Nor are they entirely irrational, as it turns out.) I would never assume that becoming compliant would lead to greater peace of mind, unless it were followed quickly by renunciation; remaining anonymous is pretty comforting, and thus far I don't see much evidence that it's going to get more difficult, despite the fear and the hype.

PS I've said this before. My wife would demand separate bank accounts if I filed FBARs. Neither she nor I think there's really a valid concern that the US will do something nefarious with that information. She just objects on principle, and I completely support her position.


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## MCV

*Fbars*

I admit as I find myself back here, at this late hour, that there is definitely an element of mistrust. In my ignorance, I have gone about sharing a life and growing a family with a my foreign spouse, not understanding that even though I receive nothing, I still owe. Full disclosure of my foreign spouses financials because We have joint checking account. Unlike wanting our children to check-in with us so that we know they are safe, I need to check-in with fbar a year or two (maybe? Not sure?) to prove I am not a criminal--or married to one! Living abroad has had its challenges--learning new languages, raising children without family support, adjusting to the laws of new lands. I haven't owed, nor have I received any benefits from the US since leaving many years ago. I admit that on principal freely giving access to my husbands financials is a problem. He has a middle class portfolio, taxed as Canada does it, and we go about our lives. I am part of a human community. It seems that the the terms of compliance/noncompliance and penalties can change at a whim, meaning, people, innocent, up willful peoples lives have been ruined by past policies. Now they've made adjustments...these are dark times and the language of the law--the education I am quickly acquiring, gives me shivers. Even so, the idea of breaking the law unbeknownst is just as upsetting. My gut tells me it's a no win. My husband says, "do what you need to do, honey. But this is crazy. Why do they need my banking information?". I am almost embarrassed, as though I am forcing some default, defacto patriotism on him that one should come by naturally. I will probably file with inflated numbers, out of fear that it's too difficulty to establish and absolute "aggregate truth". And horribly, I know it's wrong to be forced to do it. I'm not so brave.


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## ForeignBody

Please do not screw yourself up in knots over this. It is not a big deal, neither are you being asked for "full disclosure of your spouse's financials".

Filing the FBAR is very simple. They even provide you with the option of choosing the reason for being late as, "Did not know that I had to file".

Find the years where you have a reasonable basis for believing that you had over $10k. Do not agonize over the exact figure. File and you are very unlikely to hear anything more.


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## Nononymous

Agreed, don't overthink this. Do what lets you sleep the best.

(A) The case for filing: You've complied with the law, to the best of your ability. You're not disclosing much about your spouse - estimated high balance on one (?) joint checking account for a couple of years where it exceeded $10k US. That's all. Nothing more. Near-zero risk of penalty, and your conscience is clear; your spouse sounds reasonably untroubled by this silliness. If you don't want to deal with filing going forward, ensure that your joint account never exceeds $10k; you could even switch to another account with a new account number if that makes you feel better. 

(B) The case for not filing: Your past "violations" were mild in the extreme. With near absolute certainty it will never be detected, let alone punished. (We are all constantly breaking some law somewhere, wittingly or unwittingly. Relax.) So forget about, and arrange your affairs so that you never exceed the limit on your joint account, and going forward you will always be in perfect compliance with the law. You have no obligation to "check in" with the US government like a child with a parent, or to somehow prove that you are not a criminal. There is nothing to feel guilty about.

So, pick A or B and stop worrying. Either one will be fine, just pick the option most suited to your psychology.


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## Nononymous

A thought (for MCV):

If you are setting up RESP accounts for your kids, keep your name off them - do it in your husband's name only. They aren't covered FATCA so likely not a big deal, but it may save potential headaches if you can avoid reporting them on FBARs. (I don't believe they need to be reported on behalf of US citizen children, because the kids don't have access or control before age 18. But it's a bit of a grey area.) 

(Another point. I annoy people by saying this, but if your kids were not born in the US, they won't have the stigma of a US birthplace on their non-US passports, and may have an easier time staying off the radar in the future. That's what I'm hoping for my daughter. Only concern is family travel to the US with different national passports - if one parent is a US citizen, they may assume that the kids are too. We've not had any problems, but maybe we've been lucky.)


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## diharv

Nononymous said:


> A thought (for MCV):
> 
> 
> 
> (Another point. I annoy people by saying this, but if your kids were not born in the US, they won't have the stigma of a US birthplace on their non-US passports, and may have an easier time staying off the radar in the future. That's what I'm hoping for my daughter. Only concern is family travel to the US with different national passports - if one parent is a US citizen, they may assume that the kids are too. We've not had any problems, but maybe we've been lucky.)


Depends on the CBP agent you get. My family and I had the misfortune of dealing with the apparent "employee of the year" at a major US airport while flying in from my wife's country in South America. Only the second time I have ever used my new CAD passport and caught hell for using it . Had to bring out the US passport. He said the only way I could use the CAD passport to enter US was to renounce , to which I just bit my tongue and nodded in agreement thinking yeah buddy don't worry that's next. Then the guy had the audacity to say that my two young natural born children(his words not mine) were US citizens also and required US passports and this was something I had to get done once I returned home. I bit my tongue some more and nodded in agreement. Of course I had done my research a long time ago and he could not have been more wrong as yeah I was born down there but we immigrated to Canada when I was four so I have not spent the required amount of time down there and certainly no time after my 14th birthday or whatever the age is . Hell ,even if I immigrated one day before my first child was born I would ignore this idiotic advice. They were born in Canada and that is what they are . If they were not registered with a US consulate and there is no intention to ever do it I think that unilaterally trying to confer a particular citizenship on a person is a stretch at best.So as far as border agents go just smile and agree and go about your business . As far as FATCA goes I don't think financial institutions are going to be doing geneological histories on their "US person" account holders.
To finish off , I was seething mad for hours after that encounter with Mr nice guy and to add to that ,the onward flight to Vancouver was delayed about four hours too!


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## Nononymous

With hindsight I greatly regret having registered my daughter's birth at a US consulate in Europe. She is "automatically" a citizen anyway, given that I met the time criteria, but I'd be happier if there was no record at all. Family trips to the US are few and far between so I doubt we'll be running much risk of having passport issues, beyond possibly a sanctimonious lecture. (And yes, biting your tongue is the best policy.)


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## Yasmean

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place, but I was under the assumption that FBAR only applies if the account holds $10,000 on any day of the year?

I have a foreign bank account whose balance hardly ever exceeds $400. I think the most it had in it was $4000, and that was just for a couple of weeks before buying an old clunker of a car.

If I'm wrong please let me know because I've never reported it.


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## Bevdeforges

The actual "threshold" is if the sum total of all your foreign accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the year. So if the foreign account you speak of is your only foreign account, then no, you have no need to report it. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

I tried filing a 2014 FBAR (FinCEN Form 114) using the latest available Adobe Acrobat Reader for Linux. Unlike 2013, it didn't work. Thus unfortunately it appears you must have Microsoft Windows or Mac OS X to e-file FinCEN Form 114 since those are the only two operating systems that run a newer version of Adobe Acrobat Reader. (There's also a newer version of Adobe Acrobat Reader for Android, but I haven't tried that. Last year I tried Acrobat Reader for iOS, but that didn't work last year.) Apple Preview, the built-in PDF reader on Mac OS X, still does not work.

Adobe Acrobat Reader does not allow export of a "clean," read-only copy of the completed FinCEN Form 114 PDF file, viewable by other PDF readers. Ironically you can print to paper.

To net it out, there doesn't appear to be a way to e-file FinCEN Form 114 with free software. I do not think any government agency should be forcing citizens (as a broad public group at least) to use a particular proprietary piece of software with specific private license terms and conditions, but unfortunately that's what the U.S. Treasury Department is doing. In my view that's not consistent with open government, and as it happens this particular user interface is as fragile and clunky as ever.

Unless and until the U.S. Treasury Department addresses these problems, I recommend allowing plenty of time before the June 30th deadline in case you run into technical problems filing.


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## Bevdeforges

Haven't had a chance to stress test it yet, but I was able to download the form and begin to fill it in and save it, then reclaim the partially filled out form even though I get a "warning" that this version of Adobe (for Linux) may not work correctly. However they claim you need Adobe Reader version 9.5 or higher. The version of Acrobat Reader I'm using is 9.5.5

Will fool around a bit more with it later and see what happens. What version of Reader are you using?
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

That's the latest. It doesn't work for the non-registration FBAR path into FinCEN, at least not for me this year. It might work if you have a registered account with FinCEN.


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## Bevdeforges

BBCWatcher said:


> That's the latest. It doesn't work for the non-registration FBAR path into FinCEN, at least not for me this year. It might work if you have a registered account with FinCEN.


Help me understand just what doesn't work about it? I've had no real problem so far in getting the form, saving the form (both blank and with partial information filled in). Haven't gotten far enough yet to try submitting the completed form, though. Is that where it's running into problems? Because other than the "warning" message, I haven't run into anything that doesn't work (yet). And I seem to recall seeing a similar "warning" message last year - though I'm not entirely sure about that.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Correct. The FinCEN non-registered user Web form -- the one where you fill in your e-mail address (twice) -- does not accept the PDF file that Adobe Acrobat 9.5.5 under Linux produces for 2014. At least that was my experience earlier today.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, it's not until you go to send it that it doesn't work. Hm, will play around with that when I get the chance. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Bevdeforges

BBCWatcher said:


> Correct. The FinCEN non-registered user Web form -- the one where you fill in your e-mail address (twice) -- does not accept the PDF file that Adobe Acrobat 9.5.5 under Linux produces for 2014. At least that was my experience earlier today.


Had a search around on the issue and turned up the fact that last year apparently, you could only use the FinCEN system with Windows - and that many folks apparently had problems using Firefox with the system, even on Windows. A few folks reported that they could file by installing both Adobe Acrobat Reader and Internet Explorer on Wine, but the Mac crowd was basically SOL (and a few got one-time-only exemptions allowing them to file on paper).

The problem seems to be not so much with the Adobe Reader, but with the interaction of the Adobe Reader with whichever browser you're using. There are elaborate instructions for connecting Reader in the various browsers as an add-on and that seems to be what is blocking submission of the forms. (Went back to the forms I filed last year and noted that once submitted, you cannot get back into the pdf file anymore to make changes.)

There is an e-mail address to report "technical problems" with the FinCEN site and procedure. I'm tempted to drop them a note before their "busy time" (said to be the Mar/Apr timeframe). It just seems kind of stupid to require online filing of these reports when the process is so tied to specific OS and software requirements. (Never mind those overseas residents who simply don't have - or want to have - an Internet connection at all.) Then again, the local consulate is "requiring" that passport renewal applications be prepared online and printed out only on a laser printer for submission. 

Is it any wonder so many overseas taxpayers resent the picky rules and regulations?
Cheers,
Bev


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## maz57

Bevdeforges said:


> Is it any wonder so many overseas taxpayers resent the picky rules and regulations?
> Cheers,
> Bev


It's not a wonder; it's a travesty. The fact that US expats are required to annually report their legal local accounts to the US government at all is the problem. Government computer hacks screwing up the process just compounds this problem.

What's not a wonder is expats lining up in droves to renounce because they are sick and tired of it all. Until CBT and the excessive life control it represents is tossed in the dustbin this mess will continue to cause a lot more than mere resentment.


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## city

So essentially what the two of you have just discussed is that many of us won't or don't have the required program to fill out and or submit the fincen form? I use a macbook and use preview on that... So what should we do??


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## Bevdeforges

This year they claim that all is workable on the Mac OS - provided you have the correct version. (Check the site for details.) They admit they have nothing for the mobile OS (Android and iOS) but they say nothing about Linux. 

Not sure if Linux users can set everything up on Wine, though that really seems a bit OTT to me. But my main concern is for those overseas taxpayers who have no Internet access. I already do a FBAR filing for a friend who has no Internet access at all. But maybe if folks hit the "technical problems" e-mail address with their issues we can at least get resolution next year.
Cheers,
Bev


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## city

I see, thabks Bev. This whole thing has been nightmarish - thinking I've finally sorted myself out only to be prevented by technical limitations was giving me heart palpalpitations. 

The FBAR is due by June 30, correct? When do you recommend submitting it? 

Also when is the American tax year? 

I've just started my job 2 weeks ago and am already planning how to do my USA taxes...


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## jbr439

BBCWatcher said:


> I tried filing a 2014 FBAR (FinCEN Form 114) using the latest available Adobe Acrobat Reader for Linux. Unlike 2013, it didn't work.


F***! I was just about to start filling in the form. Like you, I was able to submit using Linux last year.

I wonder what would happen if you filled in the form on Linux, but then signed it using Windows? Would the resulting pdf be acceptable?

What's really maddening is that it shouldn't be rocket science for the IRS to create a proper cross-platform system.


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## BBCWatcher

A Web page would do, like 99.9999% of the rest of the world.


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## Bevdeforges

city said:


> I see, thabks Bev. This whole thing has been nightmarish - thinking I've finally sorted myself out only to be prevented by technical limitations was giving me heart palpalpitations.
> 
> The FBAR is due by June 30, correct? When do you recommend submitting it?
> 
> Also when is the American tax year?
> 
> I've just started my job 2 weeks ago and am already planning how to do my USA taxes...


I know last year things changed part way through the filing season. The website itself claims that April is the height of their busy season - and as I recall, it was after March or April of last year that some of the more "necessary" changes were made.

The two main approaches to the problem, at least for those who want to get the filing over with, would seem to be attempting a kludge or contacting the FinCEN directly for a "one-time" exemption so you could file a paper form.

Kludges include installing both Adobe and one of the "acceptable" browsers in Windows version on Wine and attempting to file that way, or resurrecting a Windows machine or partition to allow filing online. I know that, although I use Ubuntu quite happily for nearly everything these days, I still have a Windows partition to run a couple programs that simply won't work on Wine (and I have confirmed this through the various Wine advisory sites). Have not yet looked to see what, if anything, they have to say on going the Wine route for FinCEN, however it strikes me as far too much monkeying around with my system for a questionable (and one-use) solution.

BTW, the US tax year is the calendar year - with tax returns due April 15th (for those resident in the US) and June 15th (for those outside the US).
Cheers,
Bev


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## byline

I'm glad to see this thread. Earlier this year we switched from Linux to Windows, for reasons completely unrelated to this. But I did find that on Linux, trying to fill out PDFs on government sites was becoming increasingly difficult and frustrating. Sounds like this is more of the same.


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## Bevdeforges

Well, the US Government system in general are rumored to be patched together with scotch tape and bubble gum as it is. The IRS is said to have particularly dilapidated computer equipment, thanks to a series of recent budget cuts. (Which really begs the question of how efficiently they'll be able to grind through all the FBAR information and match it up to whatever it is they'll be getting from all the international banks.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## maz57

After being a die-hard Linux user for many years, I also switched back to Windows about a year ago. I was mostly pleasantly surprised by just how good Win7 is. Absolutely no major issues; Microsoft got this one right. Its nice to no longer have to fight compatibility problems, but its not nice to get used to buying software again!

I don't use Internet Explorer and whatever the garbage email program in Win 7 is called, however.


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## maz57

Bevdeforges said:


> Well, the US Government system in general are rumored to be patched together with scotch tape and bubble gum as it is. The IRS is said to have particularly dilapidated computer equipment, thanks to a series of recent budget cuts. (Which really begs the question of how efficiently they'll be able to grind through all the FBAR information and match it up to whatever it is they'll be getting from all the international banks.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Can you spell "cardiac arrest"?


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## byline

Another year, another FBAR ... 2014 is filed! I'm on Windows 7 and used Firefox without any problem. But note that there is "prepare to file" section in which they take you to Firefox *Options*, and then for *Portable Document Reader (PDF)* you select *Adobe Reader (default)*. I don't know if not doing that is causing others problems, or if it's some other issue. But it worked like a charm for me.


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## jbr439

Can anyone say whether it's kosher to take a filled in, but not yet signed, copy of the PDF from 2013 and use that as a starting point for 2014?

This would come in useful for people with a non-trivial amount of accounts.

I did a quick scan of the 2013 vs 2014 blank forms and noticed some very minor wording differences, but that's it.


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## BBCWatcher

You can try it, but I don't think it works. The e-filing system seems to be keyed to accept only the current form version.


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## Bevdeforges

If you're talking about the FBAR (FinCEN or whatever), there shouldn't be a real problem. That form asks you to fill in the year at the top of the form anyhow. The only trick is that they've jimmied up the "fillable" pdf form so as to be unchangeable once you've "signed it" online for submission.

If you have more than 25 accounts, you can just check the box on the first page. (Probably not your case, but I admit I've been tempted....)
Cheers,
Bev


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## jbr439

BBCWatcher said:


> You can try it, but I don't think it works. The e-filing system seems to be keyed to accept only the current form version.


I am indeed tempted to try it. Just concerned that it may appear to be accepted, but end up being gibberish.


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## jbr439

Bevdeforges said:


> If you're talking about the FBAR (FinCEN or whatever), there shouldn't be a real problem. That form asks you to fill in the year at the top of the form anyhow. The only trick is that they've jimmied up the "fillable" pdf form so as to be unchangeable once you've "signed it" online for submission.
> 
> If you have more than 25 accounts, you can just check the box on the first page. (Probably not your case, but I admit I've been tempted....)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Yes, FBARs. The signing issue isn't a problem for me as I saved a copy of the pre-signed PDF.

As for 25+ accounts, wouldn't that result in some kind of red flag?


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## BBCWatcher

Has anybody tried using the new "Adobe Acrobat DC" for Apple iOS or for Android to try to file FinCEN Form 114 from a tablet or smartphone? Any luck?


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## Lisaaaaaad

BBCWatcher said:


> I have a couple more reports on ways to file FBARs electronically.
> 
> 1. It does appear to be possible to file FBARs using 100% free software, specifically Linux and the Adobe Acrobat Reader Version 9.5.5 for Linux. The Lubuntu distribution of Linux is a good choice if you're looking for a simple, easy to install version of Linux that works on a very wide range of PCs and Macs, including PCs with limited memory. With Lubuntu you would download the ".deb" installable version of the Adobe Acrobat Reader for Linux from Adobe's Web site and install that. Please note that Version 9.5.5 may not contain the latest security fixes, so you should not use Adobe's Acrobat Reader beyond FBAR filing.
> 
> Lubuntu comes with the Firefox Web browser, and that works fine for accessing the FinCEN Web site. You'll have to download the FBAR PDF file, open it in Adobe Acrobat Reader, fill it out and electronically sign the form, save it, then upload it to the FinCEN/BSA Web site using your Web browser again. But it works, and this path does not require paying for any software such as Microsoft Windows.
> 
> 2. I tried using Safari on an iPad and the Adobe Reader for iOS to work with the FBAR form. That doesn't work -- the Adobe Reader for iOS does not have the functionality required to work with the FBAR form.
> 
> To repeat my editorial comment, the U.S. Treasury should not be requiring a specific vendor's (Adobe's) proprietary software to file public reports, even if that software does not come with an end user fee. The BSA Web site should have a simple Web-based form, accessible directly from a wide variety of Web browsers, to file FBARs. The Acrobat Reader prerequisite makes it very difficult for users, particularly now mobile Internet users, to file FBARs. That's unacceptable for a broad, public audience.
> 
> Until this problem is fixed, my recommendation would be that the U.S. Treasury continue to allow paper filing. Valid reasons for paper filing would include difficulty installing or using Adobe Acrobat Reader, unavailability of a PC or Mac (the only devices apparently supported for current filing), or other technical difficulties in filing.


Could you please file complaints with the FTC? If enough people do, maybe someone will notice that there is a problem. I tried to contact the Federal Reserve last year, because I didn't want to file on-line, but they never responded. Not only is the Adobe a problem, but you also have to save it to an Adobe "cloud" on-line account before it can be submitted (you can see it when you go to save, that it will be saved "on-line"). Living in a foreign country, how do I know if my computer, my service, or Adobe are secure? I would never put my bank account information or social security numbers into my computer, but they say that we must. I also agree that they should not compel people to use equipment and compatible equipment and services unless they provide it to us for free. -Lisa


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## BBCWatcher

Lisaaaaaad said:


> Could you please file complaints with the FTC?


Why would this issue be one relevant to the U.S. Federal Trade Commission?



> I tried to contact the Federal Reserve last year, because I didn't want to file on-line, but they never responded.


The U.S. Federal Reserve has nothing to do with FinCEN Form 114. FinCEN is part of the U.S. Treasury Department.



> Not only is the Adobe a problem, but you also have to save it to an Adobe "cloud" on-line account before it can be submitted (you can see it when you go to save, that it will be saved "on-line").


No, there's nothing saved in Adobe's cloud or in anybody else's cloud except FinCEN's. Not unless you choose to do that.



> Living in a foreign country, how do I know if my computer, my service, or Adobe are secure?


You have to take reasonable precautions and trust FinCEN _as you have always had to do_. If anything electronic filing _improves_ security versus postal mailing. However, FinCEN should be relying on open Web standards, not on proprietary software that does not function on tablets, smartphones, and Linux-based systems (as examples).



> I would never put my bank account information or social security numbers into my computer, but they say that we must.


I hate to break it to you, but that information is only stored electronically. The days of paper passbooks and branch card files are long gone, replaced with electronic databases in the United States mostly in the 1960s. Passbooks survived a bit longer but only as a "comfort factor" for depositors. The systems of record moved to electronic storage before passbooks were discontinued. (Though there are still a few banks still issuing and managing passbooks in Japan, a highly developed country, but Japan also has a lot of old people with habits.  So some Japanese banks still pretend the passbooks matter. They don't.)

Not that paper was particularly secure. For example, the 1890 U.S. Census is almost entirely gone, lost to a fire at the Commerce Department. A major fraction of U.S. military records were also lost to fire. All my electronic records (the ones that I keep, anyway) are very well protected against place-specific destruction such as fire.



> I also agree that they should not compel people to use equipment and compatible equipment and services unless they provide it to us for free.


Really? Did the U.S. government pay the foreign postal service for postage to file your reports? I missed that free service. 

Did the U.S. government pay for your telephone so you could file via tone dialing or fax? I missed that free service, too. 

It's not at all _unreasonable_ to require electronic filing in 2015 and beyond. It is unreasonable to require electronic filing only on PCs running Microsoft Windows and Apple Mac OS X and Adobe Reader for either of those two operating systems -- that's the unreasonable part.


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## BBCWatcher

....And I'm happy to report that FinCEN has introduced Web filing for FinCEN Form 114 that does not require the proprietary Adobe Reader plug-in. It appears to work on all types of tablets, smartphones, and PCs using open Web standards. The new online form is available here. (I have not yet tested this form.)

Thank you, FinCEN.


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## Lisaaaaaad

How is this better? This is what I am having a problem with. You don't have a choice; you must do it on-line. I would never, otherwise put my SS# and banking data on my computer ever. This requires saving it to the Adobe on-line as well. If it's any different, I can't tell.


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## Bevdeforges

Lisaaaaaad said:


> How is this better? This is what I am having a problem with. You don't have a choice; you must do it on-line. I would never, otherwise put my SS# and banking data on my computer ever. This requires saving it to the Adobe on-line as well. If it's any different, I can't tell.


The "improvement" to the system is that you can simply upload a pdf file without having to register with the FinCEN office. This also improves things for those folks who do not have online access (like a friend of mine) so that they can ask a friend to submit the form online for them.

Granted, the online-only submission is a major PITA for those who aren't online (like my friend). But at least they don't have any restrictions on how many FBAR reports can come from a single e-mail address or any such nonsense. 

And, although they recommend that you keep a file copy of what you have submitted, you don't have to keep it on your computer (and certainly NOT in some cloud storage location!). You can always print off a copy for your files and then delete the file from your hard disk. (Yeah, I know deleted material can often be recovered from a hard disk - there are electronic "shredders" if you really want to make sure it's gone and not recoverable.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Bevdeforges said:


> The "improvement" to the system is that you can simply upload a pdf file without having to register with the FinCEN office.


No, that's not the only improvement. There's now an option to fill out a standard Web form transmitted directly to FinCEN via an encrypted HTTPS connection. You can do that on your locked down "walled garden" Apple iPad, as one example. No plug-ins are required. I haven't fully tested the new option yet, but it does seem to be working well in my limited testing.

The PDF upload option is still available.

Both are much more secure than foreign postal mail paper filing or fax transmission ever was (or could be).


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## jbr439

The web form doesn't seem to have a way to save a partially completed filing and then return to it later (possibly with the browser closing or the computer/tablet/etc shutting-down/rebooting/crashing in the interim).

For people with many financial accounts and who like to take their time in entering and checking and rechecking their work, this is less than ideal. That's the one thing using Acrobat Reader has going for it.


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## BBCWatcher

Yes, that's correct. If you have some large number of accounts to report then FinCEN's current, first version of the Web form isn't ideal.

If you do use the pure Web form, I see that you have the option of downloading a PDF copy of your submission if you wish. (You can also just hit "Print" in your browser before submission. Or both.) And I see that FinCEN now supports both Adobe Reader and Foxit Reader to view the PDF copy of your Web submission. Progress! Keep improving, FinCEN.


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## maz57

BBCWatcher said:


> Progress! Keep improving, FinCEN.


The best "improvement" of all would be to simply go away. The FBAR is a futile exercise. Honest people hate it and criminals laugh at it (and don't file it). 

What a brilliant strategy; round up all the honest people while you don't inconvenience the criminals in the slightest way.


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## BBCWatcher

maz57 said:


> ....while you don't inconvenience the criminals in the slightest way.


No, FinCEN Form 114 accomplishes that. It provides a simple, unambiguous, easily triggered prosecutorial weapon against individuals who commit all kinds of underlying crimes that are more difficult to pursue in court. That's the whole point. It's a very effective tool based on criminal justice principles dating at least as far back as Al Capone's 1931 prosecution for tax evasion. (Capone served 7 1/2 years in prison and paid large fines.)

Moreover, if that weren't true, then other governments wouldn't have the same or even much more onerous foreign reporting requirements.

That's not your objection, really. Or at least it's an unrealistic one, inconsistent with what sovereigns do around the world. Including Canada, notably via Form 1135.(*) Your objection, distilled to its essence, is that you think U.S. citizens ought to be able to maintain the rights and privileges of that citizenship without particular U.S. citizenship-tied obligations (taxes and financial reporting). Fine, fair enough, but unless you're also campaigning heavily online against CRA Form 1135 then I've more accurately described your position.

(*) CRA Form 1135 also demands that Canadian residents disclose all "specified foreign properties." That includes foreign real estate, foreign patents, foreign copyrights, and much more. The United States government doesn't require _anywhere near_ that level of reporting detail. Canadian tyranny!


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## Bevdeforges

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


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