# Habitation License - fines/liabilities



## sboxster

I am negotiating with the owner to purchase two properties which I am currently renting from him.

In both cases, the properties do not have a habitation license.

Property 1, from what I am told, needs repainting from white to yellow, and a fence moved as it is less than 5 metres from part of the building. Once this is done, the license will be issued.

Property 2 was built without any permission at all.

The owner tells me that there may be fines payable in order to get a habitation license for property 2, and also seems to be under the impression that even if he does not obtain the license for property 1 this should not deter me from progressing with the purchase.

My own view, from what I have learned, is that buying a property without these licenses will make it almost impossible to sell them in the future or raise finance from them.

However, what I don't know is how much of a liability in terms of fines/back taxes or anything similar may exist, and whether or not these would increase over time.

If I can quantify the current liability, and have a good idea of whether or not further liabilities would accrue, it would then help me to decide whether to use the lack of licenses as a negotiating tool, or simply insist that the owner obtains them before the deal can progress.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.


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## PETERFC

*Reply*



sboxster said:


> I am negotiating with the owner to purchase two properties which I am currently renting from him.
> 
> In both cases, the properties do not have a habitation license.
> 
> Property 1, from what I am told, needs repainting from white to yellow, and a fence moved as it is less than 5 metres from part of the building. Once this is done, the license will be issued.
> 
> Property 2 was built without any permission at all.
> 
> The owner tells me that there may be fines payable in order to get a habitation license for property 2, and also seems to be under the impression that even if he does not obtain the license for property 1 this should not deter me from progressing with the purchase.
> 
> My own view, from what I have learned, is that buying a property without these licenses will make it almost impossible to sell them in the future or raise finance from them.
> 
> However, what I don't know is how much of a liability in terms of fines/back taxes or anything similar may exist, and whether or not these would increase over time.
> 
> If I can quantify the current liability, and have a good idea of whether or not further liabilities would accrue, it would then help me to decide whether to use the lack of licenses as a negotiating tool, or simply insist that the owner obtains them before the deal can progress.
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.


Hi Sboxster

There is one expert here who as part of his job he needs to know about licences for habitation etc. I am sure Derek will be along soon and that he is best for the advice you that you need. Good luck 

Peterfc 666?


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## omostra06

an illegaly built property has very little value, the owner will know this. thats why he is telling you that its a simple thing to make it legal, ITS NOT!

if it was simple the owner would have done it and doubled the value of the property at least.

the building that has been built without permission,(property 2) is an illegal house, a couple of things will happen with this one.
1. the council will ask for it to be knocked down and removed, with a big fine for the owner.(you if you buy it)
2. the council will fine the current owner for building illegally (you if you buy it)
they will then insist that you submit a retrospective planning application to try to legalise the building, these are very difficult to get right, the council will use every rule and regulation to make it hard for you to legalise it, their thinking is, if you could not be bothered to ask before you built, why should it be easy after you built, they will use all the regs to make you change the building, e.g. latest regs say that you need ground level, bedroom and disabled access toilet, what if there is no space to make these changes to the building? do you start to rebuild it to make it match what they want, expensive! things like insulation, window, structure, wiring, plumbing all would have to be upto the latest regs. in short, most of the time it would be easier and cheaper to build a new house than to try and change an existing house to match the latest building regs. Not to mention the cost. You will need to employ an architect and engineer to submit the planning application/project and a registered builder with an Alvara to carry out the work. This all takes time and lots of money and no guarantee that the council will ever pass it and legalise the building, of course they may not tell you this until a couple of years after you have been trying to get the application passed and legalised. And at that point after you have spent all the money, they may still insist it comes down. A risky venture.

Also on any illegal property or a house with an illegal part to it eg. an illegal extension, it is almost impossible raise finance on it (from a Portuguese bank) if the house is not legal and does not have all the relevant documentation in place, then all the bank will see is a piece of land.

Property 1: Again if it was as simple as painting the house and moving the fence, wouldnºt the current owner have already done this in order to facilitate a quicker and easier sale and avoid the type of questions/hurdles you have asked here. He would indeed just do the work and legalise the building and sell it quickly and easily at a higher value. You have to ask yourself why he hasnºt done it. 

Just a note on painting. The only time the colour of a house is an issue is if you are submitting plans for a new house they ask you to specify which colour you are going to paint it. But even this could be changed and this would not affect the legal status of the building. Generally legalising an old house which does not have the paperwork in order has nothing to do with the colour of a house or indeed things in the garden (eg driveways, walls etc). Legalising the documentation of an older house is about the house and registered areas. 

So it does seem that careful investigation would be required on your part to avoid you buying a potentially illegal property that could become a money pit and a large headache for a number of years to come.

There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems. As the old saying goes if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

My advice, walk away save yourself the stress.

Good luck with your plans.


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## sboxster

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply. It has been most helpful.


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## siobhanwf

I wholeheartedly agree with Derek. Walk away and save yourself the stress. 
Having had experience with a small issue as far as the camara are concerned I would hate to get involved in something as big as this!
Sorry if we have burst your dream.


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## acg

The above is good advice, homes built illegally are subject to, and more frequently are, being demolished, often at the owner's expense. You shouldnt buy anything in Portugal in terms of real estate without getting permission from the local authorities. Good luck to you none the less in your endeavours.


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## ulysses

omostra06 said:


> an illegaly built property has very little value, the owner will know this. thats why he is telling you that its a simple thing to make it legal, ITS NOT!
> 
> if it was simple the owner would have done it and doubled the value of the property at least.
> 
> the building that has been built without permission,(property 2) is an illegal house, a couple of things will happen with this one.
> 1. the council will ask for it to be knocked down and removed, with a big fine for the owner.(you if you buy it)
> 2. the council will fine the current owner for building illegally (you if you buy it)
> they will then insist that you submit a retrospective planning application to try to legalise the building, these are very difficult to get right, the council will use every rule and regulation to make it hard for you to legalise it, their thinking is, if you could not be bothered to ask before you built, why should it be easy after you built, they will use all the regs to make you change the building, e.g. latest regs say that you need ground level, bedroom and disabled access toilet, what if there is no space to make these changes to the building? do you start to rebuild it to make it match what they want, expensive! things like insulation, window, structure, wiring, plumbing all would have to be upto the latest regs. in short, most of the time it would be easier and cheaper to build a new house than to try and change an existing house to match the latest building regs. Not to mention the cost. You will need to employ an architect and engineer to submit the planning application/project and a registered builder with an Alvara to carry out the work. This all takes time and lots of money and no guarantee that the council will ever pass it and legalise the building, of course they may not tell you this until a couple of years after you have been trying to get the application passed and legalised. And at that point after you have spent all the money, they may still insist it comes down. A risky venture.
> 
> Also on any illegal property or a house with an illegal part to it eg. an illegal extension, it is almost impossible raise finance on it (from a Portuguese bank) if the house is not legal and does not have all the relevant documentation in place, then all the bank will see is a piece of land.
> 
> Property 1: Again if it was as simple as painting the house and moving the fence, wouldnºt the current owner have already done this in order to facilitate a quicker and easier sale and avoid the type of questions/hurdles you have asked here. He would indeed just do the work and legalise the building and sell it quickly and easily at a higher value. You have to ask yourself why he hasnºt done it.
> 
> Just a note on painting. The only time the colour of a house is an issue is if you are submitting plans for a new house they ask you to specify which colour you are going to paint it. But even this could be changed and this would not affect the legal status of the building. Generally legalising an old house which does not have the paperwork in order has nothing to do with the colour of a house or indeed things in the garden (eg driveways, walls etc). Legalising the documentation of an older house is about the house and registered areas.
> 
> So it does seem that careful investigation would be required on your part to avoid you buying a potentially illegal property that could become a money pit and a large headache for a number of years to come.
> 
> There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems. As the old saying goes if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
> 
> My advice, walk away save yourself the stress.
> 
> Good luck with your plans.


I know this is an old thread but I wonder if I can pick it up again?

What is the situation where there is land for sale (presumably rural) that has a building on it, with 4 solid walls, a new roof, a window and electricity connected that is classified as casa de arrumos - storage house. is it possible/easy to get that classification changed to a house for permanent habitation before buying the land?


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## Strontium

ulysses said:


> I know this is an old thread but I wonder if I can pick it up again?
> 
> What is the situation where there is land for sale (presumably rural) that has a building on it, with 4 solid walls, a new roof, a window and electricity connected that is classified as casa de arrumos - storage house. is it possible/easy to get that classification changed to a house for permanent habitation before buying the land?



Though it should make no difference it varies enormously from area to area. Basically you need to get planning permission for a place of habitation on some land classed as "rustic" you will need to change to the land classification, then get a "project" drawn up to latest building regs and submitted and accepted (assume the shed does not conform current habitation regulations) all at your own cost before you buy. You could ask why the seller(s) have not done this as it would make more money and be easier to sell. As with land in UK a bit of "rustic" land may or may not be given planning permission but the seller/estate agent probably knows what the chances are and the difference in value it would make. Also note that often the paperwork in not up to date because it costs money and the seller may wait till there is a sale in the offing to get it corrected, incorrect declaration of land/building area has an effect on the annual council tax bill. AS Derek said above _*"There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems."*_


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## ulysses

Strontium said:


> Though it should make no difference it varies enormously from area to area. Basically you need to get planning permission for a place of habitation on some land classed as "rustic" you will need to change to the land classification, then get a "project" drawn up to latest building regs and submitted and accepted (assume the shed does not conform current habitation regulations) all at your own cost before you buy. You could ask why the seller(s) have not done this as it would make more money and be easier to sell. As with land in UK a bit of "rustic" land may or may not be given planning permission but the seller/estate agent probably knows what the chances are and the difference in value it would make. Also note that often the paperwork in not up to date because it costs money and the seller may wait till there is a sale in the offing to get it corrected, incorrect declaration of land/building area has an effect on the annual council tax bill. AS Derek said above _*"There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems."*_


Thank you for your reply. I kind of thought as much 

Re : AS Derek said above "There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems."

Sadly my budget is very low and the only land in my budget is of this type  Anything with a proper house and habitation license is too expensive for me.


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## Strontium

ulysses said:


> Thank you for your reply. I kind of thought as much
> 
> Re : AS Derek said above "There are lots of property for sale in Portugal and now is great time to buy. Why choose to buy one with major problems."
> 
> Sadly my budget is very low and the only land in my budget is of this type  Anything with a proper house and habitation license is too expensive for me.


I don't know your budget and what you seek but there are quite a lot of places with habitation which are not advertised widely partly due to their price / estate agent costs / profit. When you have 5+ posts I'll send you a PM with some suggestions of where to look.


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## ulysses

Strontium said:


> I don't know your budget and what you seek but there are quite a lot of places with habitation which are not advertised widely partly due to their price / estate agent costs / profit. When you have 5+ posts I'll send you a PM with some suggestions of where to look.


Thanks again for your reply. Any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated 

Sorry for being dense - but I don't understand about the 5 posts ?


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## Strontium

Hi,

There's a "Private Message" (PM) facility on this forum and if I recommend an agent or two this may be classed as advertising which is not permitted on the main forum but is ok on a PM. To use the PM facility you will need to have 5+ posts


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## Tryon

*Pedrogao Grande*

Hi ulysses,

Check out the Brits in and around Graça. They gather in the Bar just below the church.


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## Maggy Crawford

That bar is now closed. They now meet in the bar closer to Altardo. If you really do want to meet them Fridays is drunken English night. We avoid it.


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## Tigtog

Hi I realise this is an old post but my parents have a property in logoa with a legal building on it, when they brought the property it also had another building which was used as a garage and had electric and kitchen, this was over 15 years ago so since hen my parents have made the second building into a guest house but it is not legal, how do they go about making it legal and will they get any fines.


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