# Gardener 'Liquidacion' question



## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Seeking opinions.

We purchased our house in December 2013. We told the previous owners we had no interest in their maid but would appreciate the contact info for the gardener. (He had been the gardener here for 15+ years over several owners). He asked for 2500 pesos per month which was a one day a week visit. The previous owners had him mowing the lawn, cleaning the pool, weeding the beds, and handyman chores. 

On his first visit he explained the pool to me and thereafter I have taken care of the pool myself. I took over the mowing of the lawn task because he never seemed to get the garden in decent shape in an eight hour visit. Last November his tasks had come down to just trimming plants and weeding. My wife and I started to do a large part of the weeding ourselves. (Up to that point we had been cooking his lunch and inviting him to eat with us). We cut back his visits to every other week (600 pesos per 7 hour work day + 1 hour lunch) - no more free lunches . Still in December we paid him a 2500 peso Christmas bonus. 

Last month he started working particularly slowly. I found him sitting under a tree when he should have been working. At the end of the day we told him - see you in 3 weeks. He was here today and at the end of the day said - see you in three weeks. He said - no - I don't want to do this anymore - I want a 'liquidacion'. We said no way. We never agreed to such a thing - he was a contractor not an employee. He wouldn't leave and I ended up giving him 600 pesos for today and 1200 pesos 'liquidacion'. 

We have signed receipts for every peso we have ever paid him - including a signed statement where he accepts the 1200 pesos as liquidation.

I can appreciate Mexico not wanting it's workers exploited. But gosh - we paid this guy VERY well, gave him a months Christmas bonus, fed him, drove him to the bus. We truly feel that we were exploited / robbed.

Sorry for the lengthy post.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Taken from another site written by an Expat facilitor.

"This is where you calculate termination pay. If the person quits amount owing is very little and select under CALCULAR: " SOLO FINIQUITO".

LIQUIDACION + 20 DIAS is an outright termination without documented cause.

LIQUIDACION is a mutually agreed termination.

Salario Diario: take the amount paid in a week and divide by 7 for daily rate. For example, a person who works 2 days a week and makes 350 p / day. That is 700 pesos divided by 7 for a daily rate of 100 pesos. 

Salario Diario Integrado: should be the same as daily rates (in this example it is 100 pesos) unless you are paying extra for healthcare etc."



Calculadora Finiquito/Liquidación


OK he took the $1200 pesos and signed for it. It looks like you still need to give him 20 days pay + and maybe more because he worked a year and a half for you. It might be more than that as I didn´t fill out your data in the calculator in the link above. If he was paid $600 pesos per day in the end maybe he needs another $12,000 pesos.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

First error you do not get familiar with the help and sit down with them for lunch, they are employees not buddies.
You have to tell people the rules of the games and if you cut back you cut back not give them the same amount of money or terminate them .
The little things raise expectations and end up badly.
Being over generous may make you look like a sucker who has too much money and doing manual labor which garner or maid are hired to do put you on their level..not a good idea.

Do you speak Spanish? Did the man go away happy or does he want more? If he went away happy hopefully you do not have a problem if not see a labor attorney.


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> Taken from another site written by an Expat facilitor.
> 
> "This is where you calculate termination pay. If the person quits amount owing is very little and select under CALCULAR: " SOLO FINIQUITO".
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Sorry I don't understand that calculator.
As I interpret the words - since he was making 600 pesos every 14 days his daily pay was about 43 pesos per day. 20 days = 857 pesos. No ?

We have a VERY intelligent Mexican friend who points out he was not an employee but a contractor offering services. He did not work every day, not even every week. We have several people who offer services - the fumigator comes once a month for a few hours, the electrician comes on an as needed basis etc.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

FINIQUITO is the term used when terminating an employee and a lawyer might be expensive to draw up the termination papers. I know it should have 2 copies and be signed and witnessed. I wonder if a well stocked papelaria might have a standard FINIQUITO form.

Here is a sample letter from the internet, maybe he could copy it with his data. 

http://www.ejemplode.com/11-escritos/1241-ejemplo_de_carta_finiquito.html


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> FINIQUITO is the term used when terminating an employee and a lawyer might be expensive to draw up the termination papers. I know it should have 2 copies and be signed and witnessed. I wonder if a well stocked papelaria might have a standard FINIQUITO form.
> 
> Here is a sample letter from the internet, maybe he could copy it with his data.
> 
> Ejemplo de Carta Finiquito


He was NOT an employee. In fact he often boasted how many CLIENTS he had.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

cuerna1 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Sorry I don't understand that calculator.
> As I interpret the words - since he was making 600 pesos every 14 days his daily pay was about 43 pesos per day. 20 days = 857 pesos. No ?
> 
> We have a VERY intelligent Mexican friend who points out he was not an employee but a contractor offering services. He did not work every day, not even every week. We have several people who offer services - the fumigator comes once a month for a few hours, the electrician comes on an as needed basis etc.


Correct he was making $300 per week for 8 hours divided by 7 is $43 per day times 20 equals $857 plus the time worked for 1 1/2 years will bring it up. Also because he was paid more earlier on will effect the total I suspect, why the calcultor is there to help.

No. There are some discussions on part time employees or contractors not having a contract/paying taxes etc. does not excuse you from the new labor law unfortunately.

If he choses to got to the labor board you will find out as some people have.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

cuerna1 said:


> He was NOT an employee. In fact he often boasted how many CLIENTS he had.


It doesn´t matter unless he had a contract with your and paid taxes and gave you receipts etc. It is a messy situation to get into unless you realize he was your part time gardner and not a lanscaping contrator even if he claims to be one. If it were me I would write up a letter in Spanish, copy it and sign it with his signatures and have it witnessed and give him what you think is fair. If he signs it you are of the hook later on.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

cuerna1 said:


> He was NOT an employee. In fact he often boasted how many CLIENTS he had.


With the kind of attitude he seems to have, I'm surprised he has any clients!


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> First error you do not get familiar with the help and sit down with them for lunch, they are employees not buddies. You have to tell people the rules of the games and if you cut back you cut back not give them the same amount of money or terminate them . The little things raise expectations and end up badly. Being over generous may make you look like a sucker who has too much money and doing manual labor which garner or maid are hired to do put you on their level..not a good idea. Do you speak Spanish? Did the man go away happy or does he want more? If he went away happy hopefully you do not have a problem if not see a labor attorney.


I agree on every comment


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

cuerna1 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Sorry I don't understand that calculator. As I interpret the words - since he was making 600 pesos every 14 days his daily pay was about 43 pesos per day. 20 days = 857 pesos. No ? We have a VERY intelligent Mexican friend who points out he was not an employee but a contractor offering services. He did not work every day, not even every week. We have several people who offer services - the fumigator comes once a month for a few hours, the electrician comes on an as needed basis etc.


You will have to be extra careful on that subject, hiring help.
That gardener may sue you and say he was in fact your employee, you dont have a contract to prove that he was a contractor, he may present fake witnesses, or even the neighbors, saying that he actually was working with you.
Mexican law is just like that, and they could end up making you pay for his holidays, christmas bonus, ask why he did not have social security service....
It's hell with employees in Mexico, and Morelos is worse than other places. Usually the employee wins this discussions


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

cuerna1 said:


> He was NOT an employee. In fact he often boasted how many CLIENTS he had.


The laws in Mexico are different. You owe termination to anyone who works for you. The distinction between contractors and employees is something of a north-of-the-border distinction that doesn't work the same way in here. The separation payment is based on how many years the employee/contractor has worked for you. Since you inherited him from the previous owners, it is possible that you also inherited their employment history with him.

A final comment: paying someone $2500 pesos for four days of work sounds pretty generous to me. It is almost double what I pay a highly skilled plumber/painter/albanile.


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## grotton (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm curious where you live. In San Cristobal de las Casas where we live salaries are lower than other parts of Mexico. We pay our gardener much less than you do (about 1/3 as much for 6 hour day), and that is considered fairly generous here. We give our guy two days vacation that he can use as he chooses, and since he's a contract employee, no holidays, but he can switch days as he chooses with prior notice. There should be no obligation to pay his liquidation since he isn't a regular employee. Don't be afraid to stand up for yourself in court. We've been sued over land issues, always stood up for ourselves, and won in court. It helps that my partner is Mexican and his family is from here. But don't let yourself be pushed around.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

I really would not advice anyone to push their luck on employment matters, not a Mexican and mostly not to a foreigner
Most employees in Mexico do not have a contract, and they work on such and such agreements, they still have ALL rights, and when they find that out, you released an angry kraken

If you choose to try your luck, please let us know how it went


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I really would not advice anyone to push their luck on employment matters, not a Mexican and mostly not to a foreigner
> Most employees in Mexico do not have a contract, and they work on such and such agreements, they still have ALL rights, and when they find that out, you released an angry kraken
> 
> If you choose to try your luck, please let us know how it went


Good advice, Gary.

What is a kraken?


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## Anonimo (Apr 8, 2012)

Kraken.


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thank you all for your opinions / comments.

I thought about this a lot over the night. First and foremost - when my wife paid him for the day (and had him sign a receipt) she said 'ok here is a calendar. can you come again this week (which was three weeks away)'. It was THEN that he said - I don't want to do this anymore - I want a liquidation. I don't like this work anymore. 

He was a gardener who didn't like to pull weeds. Well the weeds needed to get pulled - it was either him or I. I chose to mow the lawn etc myself to free up his time to do the maintenance needed on the beds. It came out in yesterday's conversation that the previous owner allowed him (the gardener) to bring on extra help to get the job done. He was a gardener who never did anything we did not ask him to do. He felt his work was done when he finished what we asked him to do.

As I said earlier - I can appreciate Mexico protecting the little guy - but where does it end ? I've been going to the same (excellent) mechanic for the past two years - in fact he had the car this week. Is he my employee ? We have no contract. The same is true of the fumigator who comes once a month. We go to the same dentist a few times a year...

Anyway - when the gardener left yesterday he shook both our hands and we wished him well. But I think I'm going to seek out whatever document is required to clearly lay out the non-employee relationship of a contractor.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

cuerna1 said:


> …As I said earlier - I can appreciate Mexico protecting the little guy - but where does it end ? I've been going to the same (excellent) mechanic for the past two years - in fact he had the car this week. Is he my employee ? We have no contract. The same is true of the fumigator who comes once a month. We go to the same dentist a few times a year…


In my opinion, and it is nothing more than that, the distinction is in the regularity. 

The woman who cleans my house once a week, gets an aguinaldo (annual bonus) and would be entitled to compensation if I stopped using her since she as been coming once a week for many years. 

The woman who cuts my hair every other month or so should get an aguinaldo (I am trying to get better at remembering to do that) but would not get anything if I decided to go to someone else. Of course she is a personal friend and I would have some explaining to do if I switched so it is not likely. (Also, I am baby sitting her bird at the moment, for which she will try to give me a few free haircuts).


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Anonimo said:


> Kraken.


Thanks for the link, Anonimo. I'd never heard of this sea monster before. I have a Mexican friend who's been living in Norway for several years working on a PhD in marine biology. I'll bet she knows what a kraken is!


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Background : when we closed on the house in December 2013 there was a newly introduced 'tax' we needed to pay (and it was steep, perhaps 250,000 pesos). The notary's lawyer said - here's the contact info for a lawyer who can get a large part of that back for you. Turns out the tax was imposed without ever having the proper number of signatures to make it official. Cut to the chase - in the end we filed a 'lawsuit' and got back perhaps 100,000 pesos of which we paid her 30,000. Smart girl.

My wife spoke with her and told her the story. She suggested that we let her contact the gardener and offer him an additional 600 pesos in exchange for signing a 'release'. She would then take the release to a judge and make it official. That part would be an additional 1,000 pesos. Worse case she felt that he might be entitled to another 2,400 over and above the 1,200 pesos we already paid him.

Going forward we are going to have a form prepared to prevent this situation from happening in the future.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

So the lawyer decided to treat the gardner as an employee.... Better safe than sorry.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> In my opinion, and it is nothing more than that, the distinction is in the regularity.
> 
> . . .
> The woman who cuts my hair every other month or so should get an aguinaldo (I am trying to get better at remembering to do that) but would not get anything if I decided to go to someone else. . . .


I'm guessing that the woman who cuts your hair comes to your house, and that's why you are supposed to give her an aguinaldo. Since I get my hair cut at a salon, the aguinaldo regulation doesn't apply, though I do give my _estilista_ a nice tip everytime he gives me one of his wonderful haircuts.


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I guess you are right - and if there are no surprises the monetary amounts are not that bad - BUT - we will have been snuckered - and I will seriously try to keep that from EVER happening again. I guess there are bad people everywhere.

btw : it kind of seems to me that he quit when he declared he didn't want to return in three weeks because he no longer liked the work he agreed to perform (employee or contractor).


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm guessing that the woman who cuts your hair comes to your house, and that's why you are supposed to give her an aguinaldo. Since I get my hair cut at a salon, the aguinaldo regulation doesn't apply, though I do give my _estilista_ a nice tip everytime he gives me one of his wonderful haircuts.


I thought about that as well. I walk into a shop off the street. If I'm lucky the woman I like is working but I have no control. A haircut cost 140 pesos and I tip 20. I get no receipt (and have no contract), I don't record the transaction and at Christmas time I will extend holiday greetings to whomever happens to be cutting my hair.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

cuerna1 said:


> I thought about that as well. I walk into a shop off the street. If I'm lucky the woman I like is working but I have no control. A haircut cost 140 pesos and I tip 20. I get no receipt (and have no contract), I don't record the transaction and at Christmas time I will extend holiday greetings to whomever happens to be cutting my hair.


If you want to make sure of getting the woman you like to cut your hair, why not make an appointment? That's what I do.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm guessing that the woman who cuts your hair comes to your house, and that's why you are supposed to give her an aguinaldo. Since I get my hair cut at a salon, the aguinaldo regulation doesn't apply, though I do give my _estilista_ a nice tip everytime he gives me one of his wonderful haircuts.


Comes to my house??? She only comes to my house when she wants me to take care of her bird. Her shop is about a block from my house and all haircutting takes place there.

I feel like I should give her an aguinaldo because it is a nice thing to do, like giving the garbage collectors a year end bonus. It is not required.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Comes to my house??? She only comes to my house when she wants me to take care of her bird. Her shop is about a block from my house and all haircutting takes place there.
> 
> I feel like I should give her an aguinaldo because it is a nice thing to do, like giving the garbage collectors a year end bonus. It is not required.


I pay my stylist quite enough for the haircuts (it's a pretty pricey place, my one indulgence), without giving him an aguinaldo too!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I pay my stylist quite enough for the haircuts (it's a pretty pricey place, my one indulgence), without giving him an aguinaldo too!


The lady who cuts my hair doesn't make a whole lot of money. She charges men $60 pesos for a haircut, I don't know what the price is for women, probably more. Some days she has only one or two clients all day. Her daughter is a flight attendant for Aeromexico and she helps her mother with expenses. I don't mind giving her, the mother, a bonus once a year, but I don't always remember. Maybe after this discussion I will be better at remembering.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> The lady who cuts my hair doesn't make a whole lot of money. She charges men $60 pesos for a haircut, I don't know what the price is for women, probably more. Some days she has only one or two clients all day. Her daughter is a flight attendant for Aeromexico and she helps her mother with expenses. I don't mind giving her, the mother, a bonus once a year, but I don't always remember. Maybe after this discussion I will be better at remembering.


The person who cuts my hair owns the salon and makes a good living. I doubt if he expects Christmas bonuses from his clients. I have on occasion given him a little Christmas gift, like a nice box of chocolates, which I know he appreciated.


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Isla Verde said:


> The person who cuts my hair owns the salon and makes a good living. I doubt if he expects Christmas bonuses from his clients. I have on occasion given him a little Christmas gift, like a nice box of chocolates, which I know he appreciated.


My wife and I are simple people. My wife loves to bake sweet stuff at the end of the year, Fortunately I have no interest in sweets. We give 'gifts' to the guards, the people at the bank, the people at the post office, the people at the mechanic shop - and on and on.


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## jlms (May 15, 2008)

Liquidacion?

He wasn't your employee. He was working as a freelancer, legally you aren't obliged to anything since you didn't establish an employment relationship of any kind.

Traditionally people that have been providing a regular service expect some kind of bonus payment, but this is entirely a goodwill thing, so it is good that you signed documents to show this.

The situation would be trickier if you had a living in maid or a maid working daily since it would be permanent employment in everything but name, in that case, at least in theory, one is obliged to act as an employee, which includes paying IMSS, ISSSTE, pension and paid holidays, in practice most people keep all informal, but you would be exposing yourself if you don't formalize the situation (which is why some people are starting to go for agencies who take care of the legal side of things).


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## cuerna1 (Mar 7, 2015)

jlms said:


> Liquidacion?
> 
> He wasn't your employee. He was working as a freelancer, legally you aren't obliged to anything since you didn't establish an employment relationship of any kind.
> 
> ...


Yes - after a couple days to think it over - we are not going to have the lawyer contact the guy. We did not fire him (although we were not happy with him). From day 1 we told him he was here on an as needed basis. As time went on he was needed less and less. The previous owners were seldom here - and I doubt the owner ever cleaned the pool or mowed the lawn. Well those are things I like to do. Everyone we have told that we were paying him 600 pesos per visit says we were more than generous. 

My wife paid him at the end of the day - had him sign a receipt - took out the calendar to schedule the next visit and he said - I want to terminate this relationship - I no longer like the work. And by the way - you owe me liquidation. I want to start a new relationship where, rather than getting paid by the day, you pay me for the tasks. If I mow the lawn you pay me X. If I trim the trees you pay me XX. He very clearly had given the situation a lot of prior thought. 

We are going to stand our ground.


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## Split the USA (Jun 29, 2015)

TundraGreen said:


> In my opinion, and it is nothing more than that, the distinction is in the regularity.
> 
> The woman who cleans my house once a week, gets an aguinaldo (annual bonus) and would be entitled to compensation if I stopped using her since she as been coming once a week for many years.
> 
> The woman who cuts my hair every other month or so should get an aguinaldo (I am trying to get better at remembering to do that) but would not get anything if I decided to go to someone else. Of course she is a personal friend and I would have some explaining to do if I switched so it is not likely. (Also, I am baby sitting her bird at the moment, for which she will try to give me a few free haircuts).


 So what is the dividing line on this? Who is considered eligible for this separation payment and who isn't?


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## Split the USA (Jun 29, 2015)

cuerna1 said:


> I guess you are right - and if there are no surprises the monetary amounts are not that bad - BUT - we will have been snuckered - and I will seriously try to keep that from EVER happening again. I guess there are bad people everywhere.
> 
> btw : it kind of seems to me that he quit when he declared he didn't want to return in three weeks because he no longer liked the work he agreed to perform (employee or contractor).


A good point - is this payment due only if YOU terminate the work relationship (as in letting them go) or are they entitled to it when they quit as well?


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## Split the USA (Jun 29, 2015)

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for the link, Anonimo. I'd never heard of this sea monster before. I have a Mexican friend who's been living in Norway for several years working on a PhD in marine biology. I'll bet she knows what a kraken is!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

A neighbor had a maid and cook for 30 years, his wife died , he remarried and the new wife and maid did not get along. The new wife is Mexican and her son is a lawyer so she started cutting back the hours and back and finally let go the maid with severance based on the new salary... the maid went to the labor board and it was ruled that the woman should have terminated the employment at the higher salary, paid the severance for 30 years and start anew with the new hours...The cutting back the hours to pay less severance did not work in this case with the labor board.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> A neighbor had a maid and cook for 30 years, his wife died , he remarried and the new wife and maid did not get along. The new wife is Mexican and her son is a lawyer so she started cutting back the hours and back and finally let go the maid with severance based on the new salary... the maid went to the labor board and it was ruled that the woman should have terminated the employment at the higher salary, paid the severance for 30 years and start anew with the new hours...The cutting back the hours to pay less severance did not work in this case with the labor board.


Shame on the new wife for trying to cheat the maid!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

pretty sad that the husband who had a maid that helped care of his wife while she was dying let the new wife treat this woman like that.. That is my take..She served him for 30 years..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Shame on the new wife for trying to cheat the maid!


There may be more to the story than we know. The maid may have felt loyalty to the old wife and made life difficult for the new wife.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> There may be more to the story than we know. The maid may have felt loyalty to the old wife and made life difficult for the new wife.


Even if that's true, that's still no reason to try and stiff her financially.


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