# Is the tide turning ?



## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

I see ever increasing amounts of threads/questions about moving to Spain and (I can only speak for my area) a good number of shops re-opening / being built.

Yes to my eye things are on the up.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

The tide ain't turnin' friend - it's a tsunami comin'-ta-git-cha. 'Tis May, some places are reopening and hoping to make a few bob. This summer will be quite a Leveller.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lots of optimism here about the 1.8 billion euros supposedly on its way from the EU to create jobs for youngsters (the under-25 unemployment rate is currently 57%). I just hope it actually filters down to the people who need it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Lots of optimism here about the 1.8 billion euros supposedly on its way from the EU to create jobs for youngsters (the under-25 unemployment rate is currently 57%). I just hope it actually filters down to the people who need it.


Hallelujah!!!! Yes, hopefully it will be used to speculate to accumulate SENSIBLY, rather than sunk into oblivion!!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think the answer is at the moment, No, not really.
As Leper says, it's summer, people are hoping to make a few bob off the tourists.
As for the EU youth unemployment money: I'm not sure what Jo means when she says 'Speculate to accumulate'. 
Speculation is the villain behind Spain's current economic woes and whilst a few of the more established property developers may have both speculated and accumulated the majority of the working population most certainly did not accumulate from speculation.
Equally, I hope that the EU money is handled sensibly by local authorities and devolved to those start-ups and established PYMES who have sound local knowledge of the area, its spending power and sectors where some success is likely to come about with a bit of luck, always needed as a complement to the 'hard work' which some think is the sole motor of success.
It would also be nice if diversity could be encouraged and jobs that can generate more jobs and regenerate communities could be singled out for any grants going.
The key to lifting people out of poverty and economic insecurity is training for skills relevant to the economy of the twenty-first century. This has been proven to be so on a global scale. 
Let's hope the granting of this comparatively modest but very welcome EU support money is handled wisely and not doled out to no-hopers or 'friends of the family' who want to start a nice little bar/café.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I should have added that for any business to succeed, especially in the service/entertainment/non-essential sector, you need customers with spending power. As recent reports indicate that four million of those without work are now receiving no paro and many of those are likely to be found in areas most hard hit by the crisis i.e. much of Andalucia, prospects for any new business are not brilliant.
How much more evidence is needed that austerity doesn't work, I wonder...Talk of 'green shoots' is talk-up for Sunday's elections.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I should have added that for any business to succeed, especially in the service/entertainment/non-essential sector, you need customers with spending power. As recent reports indicate that four million of those without work are now receiving no paro and many of those are likely to be found in areas most hard hit by the crisis i.e. much of Andalucia, prospects for any new business are not brilliant.
> How much more evidence is needed that austerity doesn't work, I wonder...Talk of 'green shoots' is talk-up for Sunday's elections.


Really ?, you need shoppers if you open a shop, well I never knew that. 


I notice that Leper and yourself have ignored the first part of my post where I mention about the incresed post of late from new members asking about moving to Spain.
No the tourist trade enquire on TripAdvisor.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

playamonte said:


> Really ?, you need shoppers if you open a shop, well I never knew that.
> 
> 
> I notice that Leper and yourself have ignored the first part of my post where I mention about the incresed post of late from new members asking about moving to Spain.
> No the tourist trade enquire on TripAdvisor.


Why does the amount of people making enquiries on the forum mean that Spain is doing better?
There are always times of the year when there are more new posters than others, but it has more to do with what's happening in their countries than what's happening here, imo.

I'd love Spain to be improving its economic situation, but I seriously doubt that it is to an extent which means anything. For example, for the unemployment situation to get back to where it was before the crisis means that more than 3 million people will need to find jobs! And that's taking into account that in 2008 unemployment was at around 1,000,000, a little under 8% which wasn't a very good position to start from. So any talk of rates unemployment improving needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Also I think Spain is investing in the same old same old. Tourism and even construction, badly paid sectors and not entirely stable. It seems that the same mistakes are going to be made. Where's the new investment, new markets the new plans?

Before anybody who doesn't "know" me makes some comment about if you're not happy then leave...
I am happy, I'm here for the long haul, but imo there's no denying that Spain is still in a very difficult situation and will be for years to come.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Really ?, you need shoppers if you open a shop, well I never knew that.
> 
> 
> I notice that Leper and yourself have ignored the first part of my post where I mention about the incresed post of late from new members asking about moving to Spain.
> No the tourist trade enquire on TripAdvisor.


Well, as you didn't mention that important fact, I thought I would
I'm thinking more widely than 'shops' too as I expect is also implicit in your post.

Increased posts from new members THINKING about moving to Spain...well, yes. Retired folk, people with UK businesses, some folk with less chance of finding employment in their stated field than I have of being Miss Spain 2015....
I didn't notice a sudden influx of the well-heeled....and certainly not more than a puddle in the ocean where lifting Spain's economy is concerned...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

On the larger of the Canary Isles, tourism has increased in some case by over 30%, even here, on the brim of the planet, I have noticed an increase in pale faced strangers, all looking befuddled and lost.

So perhaps things are looking up, more tourists means more jobs, our tourist industry is year round.

Our local Nationalist politician, Narvay Quintero, is beating the drum in Madrid, for funding to extend our local airport runway, in order to enable direct flights to & from Europe. He means well but hasn't a hope in hell, the Godo Politico's on the Peninsular are not sure where the Canary Islands are situated, let alone the Meridian Isle of El Hierro


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> For example, for the unemployment situation to get back to where it was before the crisis means that more than 3 million people will need to find jobs! And that's taking into account that in 2008 unemployment was at around 1,000,000, a little under 8% which wasn't a very good position to start from. So any talk of rates unemployment improving needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.


That 8% unemployment rate back in 2008, whilst it may not have been a very good position to start from, was however a record LOW unemployment level in the history of Spain. And that was at the height of what people considered the boom years.

So I don't think anyone will seriously be expecting to get back to anything like that level for many years to come, unfortunately. Spain was always a poor country (apart from the aristocracy and the landowners) up to the beginning of the mass tourism era, and a great many people had to look overseas to find work and make a life for themselves, just as they've done in this most recent recession.

Tourism and construction, whilst they undoubtedly provide poorly paid and unstable work, were what Spain had going for it, by and large, during the better times. With residential tourism, in particular, comes more indirect employment in manufacturers and suppliers of fixtures and fittings, furniture, etc. When people buy properties, they want new kitchens, bathrooms, windows, and all the rest. So if more foreigners are looking at returning to the Spanish property market, whether it be as permanent residents or holiday home owners, it can only help the recovery. Recent figures published regarding the number of property sales in Malaga province indicate that they are increasing steadily, particularly to foreign buyers.


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## anonserg (May 13, 2014)

I don't know if this is the right thread to ask but I have been meaning to know opinions of community of this forum on the current unemployment status in Spain.


1. I know Spaniards love their siesta and will do everything they can to ensure this tradition survive the modern world. Due to this, most shops close midday and re-open early evening for another 2-3 hours till actual closing (even in big touristy cities like Barcelona and Madrid). Do they think it will not help their business at all if they eliminate siesta time and open say from 10am-8pm every day? And what you guys think of this? 

2. I also notice this in other part of Europe (especially in France) where shops are closed on Sundays. In big cities with throngs of tourists like Paris and Barcelona (for example) it will surely help boost local economy if these shops are allowed to operate on Sundays. I am aware of the fact that it is written in the law and not just public opinion that shops should remain closed on Sundays so that people would rather spent time with families doing activities etc etc but isn't it such a waste to miss on sales especially from tourists. By extending their operating hours these businesses could also hire more people and helps reduce unemployment. 

It seems wrong to me that they would rather have more time for leisure and to spent with families but business is stagnant (if not worse) and could have been saved if they cut siesta time and open on Sundays.

You see I came from Asia and most shops in our cities are open all day all week and if you operate in a shopping mall your business close probably less than 10 days a year. So when I first came to live in Europe about 10 years ago it was pretty bizarre for me not to have been able to shop on Sundays (and if you get out of office at 7pm basically all shops are already closed on weekdays). I eventually adapted to the idea and enjoyed the calm of Sundays but with massive economic downturn in this part of the world especially with the youth unemployment rate, I couldnt help but to think perhaps changes like this is needed to help 'heal the wound'?

I am not saying the Asian way is the best way but what I would really honestly like to know what you all think of this? Maybe there are some studies has been done to prove it will not help at all and I overlooked? Maybe the wound is too deep that effort like this is considered trivial and meaningless?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

anonserg said:


> I don't know if this is the right thread to ask but I have been meaning to know opinions of community of this forum on the current unemployment status in Spain.
> 
> 
> 1. I know Spaniards love their siesta and will do everything they can to ensure this tradition survive the modern world. Due to this, most shops close midday and re-open early evening for another 2-3 hours till actual closing (even in big touristy cities like Barcelona and Madrid). Do they think it will not help their business at all if they eliminate siesta time and open say from 10am-8pm every day? And what you guys think of this?
> ...


I think the picture you describe is somewhat out of date. Spain's shopping malls (_centros comercios_), big stores like El Corte Inglés and the ubiquitous Chinese bazaars don't close at midday; they are open from 9 or 10 in the morning till 10 pm. 

The laws have been relaxed recently in tourist areas allowing shops to stay open in the afternoon if they want to, and on Sundays. But unless you have the customers, it isn't economic to pay staff to work through the afternoon break.

Businesses work the same number of hours per day as the rest of Europe, they just take a longer lunch break. In fact nowadays fewer people go home to lunch, and often work right through the afternoon.

As for Sunday opening, IMO it would be sad if Sunday became just another day of the week. It's still a special day here.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

They'd probably open in the 'siesta' period if they were likely to have any customers. About the only people who you will find about in a siesta period are Foreigners around here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You can open shops, workshops etc. from dawn to dusk 365 days a year but if the punters aren't there you are merely a 'busy fool'.

I guess buying a bank repossession property for 90k euros which some poor sod paid 250k euros for in the boom years and got evicted from helps the economy...as the saying goes, every little helps. But that kind of activity isn't going to create the 3000000 jobs that are needed to cut the dole queue. It's merely feasting off the corpse. As someone -Lynn? - pointed out, it doesn't make for good community relations either when a guiri snaps up that 90k euro 'bargain' and the evicted family is Spanish.

Spain's problems are structural and it's hard to see a way forward for regions such as Andalucia and Estremadura. Most immigrants from the UK, Germany, Scandinavia and other northern countries are not HNWIs although wealthy Chinese and Russian investors are making their mark in ritzy places like Sotogrande and Marbella.
I think PW's outlook is a realistic one, sadly.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

anonserg said:


> I don't know if this is the right thread to ask but I have been meaning to know opinions of community of this forum on the current unemployment status in Spain.
> 
> 
> 1. I know Spaniards love their siesta and will do everything they can to ensure this tradition survive the modern world. Due to this, most shops close midday and re-open early evening for another 2-3 hours till actual closing (even in big touristy cities like Barcelona and Madrid). Do they think it will not help their business at all if they eliminate siesta time and open say from 10am-8pm every day? And what you guys think of this?
> ...


Your questions are understandable ones, but I agree with what others have said about the fact that business opening hours are changing anyway, particularly in the major cities and tourist areas. In areas which are neither, there is only so much money around to be spent, and shops opening longer just means the same amount of customers spread over a longer period of time, with higher operating costs for the business owners.

I don't think the Spanish culture of wanting time to spend with their families should be dismissed lightly, either. It's those strong family ties and reliance on the family first and foremost for support (because there's precious little available elsewhere) that have helped and are helping very many Spanish people who have lost their jobs and their homes during this recession to survive, with whole families moving in with relatives and pensioners supporting their adult children and grandchildren from their pensions.


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## anonserg (May 13, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> I think the picture you describe is somewhat out of date. Spain's shopping malls (_centros comercios_), big stores like El Corte Inglés and the ubiquitous Chinese bazaars don't close at midday; they are open from 9 or 10 in the morning till 10 pm.


Thanks for your feedback anyway (although you mentioned all things I already know). I did not say all shops are closed during siesta hours. I cannot imagine big store like El Corte Ingles to close on siesta hours that would just seem weird (in fact when was the last time it did?)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

There wasn't much I liked about living in the Czech Republic but I grew to really love the deep peace that descended from Saturday lunchtime until Monday morning. Thankfully it's the same here.
Commerce is a vital part of our lives but it's sad that it has come to determine our lives.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I guess buying a bank repossession property for 90k euros which some poor sod paid 250k euros for in the boom years and got evicted from helps the economy...as the saying goes, every little helps. But that kind of activity isn't going to create the 3000000 jobs that are needed to cut the dole queue. It's merely feasting off the corpse. As someone -Lynn? - pointed out, it doesn't make for good community relations either when a guiri snaps up that 90k euro 'bargain' and the evicted family is Spanish.
> 
> .


I'm not sure if I could take the credit for having said that before on this forum (can't remember) but whenever I do say it, those who regard themselves as "economic realists" as opposed to "idealistic dreamers" as they deem me, always say "oh well, that's the way of the world, there are always winners and losers". I can't be quite so cold blooded about it, and I don't think I could ever buy a bank repossession and feel comfortable about living in it thereafter. However, how do I know the person it was repossessed from wasn't just some slimeball property speculator who'd got his fingers burned? If it were so, I suppose I'd be quite pleased to snap up the bargain on the back of his losses. The only case I've heard of personally was my hairdresser telling me that a friend of hers (a local Spanish person) had just bought an apartment for €90,000 and the next door neighbours had paid €240,000 for an identical one, and were still paying the mortgage they'd taken out to buy it. It won't always be guiris buying the repossessions.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anonserg said:


> 1. I know Spaniards love their siesta and will do everything they can to ensure this tradition survive the modern world. Due to this, most shops close midday and re-open early evening for another 2-3 hours till actual closing (even in big touristy cities like Barcelona and Madrid).





anonserg said:


> Thanks for your feedback anyway (although you mentioned all things I already know). I did not say all shops are closed during siesta hours. I cannot imagine big store like El Corte Ingles to close on siesta hours that would just seem weird (in fact when was the last time it did?)


 No, but you did say most shops and then went on to cite Madrid and Barcelona, but this is a real It Depends question. In summer many smaller shops will close for a break OR they will open for a reduced timetable. However, there are many shops that are open from 10:00 - 20:00. That's a pretty long timetable and wages have to be paid. My first year here I was always going to the shops at the wrong time. I was in Catalonia and one of the few words I learnt was Tancat (closed) just because I saw it so many times! But as others have said, there's no point opening if the clients aren't there. A big new health food store has opened on Calle Fuencarral in Madrid (very good by the way). It opened at 9:00 for about 6 weeks, but now opens at 10:00 'cos there's no business at that time.

Sunday shopping
In Madrid it totally depends on where you are, but shopping centres and most shops around Princesa, Sol, Callao, Arenal etc, most shops in and around La Vaguada and some areas of Las Rozas, Pozuelo even El Escorial etc open on Sundays.
Bilbao however is Tancat on Sundays.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I think the answer is at the moment, No, not really.
> As Leper says, it's summer, people are hoping to make a few bob off the tourists.
> As for the EU youth unemployment money: I'm not sure what Jo means when she says 'Speculate to accumulate'.
> Speculation is the villain behind Spain's current economic woes and whilst a few of the more established property developers may have both speculated and accumulated the majority of the working population most certainly did not accumulate from speculation.
> ...


Yep, we need jobs that generate jobs, and also that give work to the numerous qualified people that Spain has trained and that are now either unemployed or not here.
Spain, compared to other countries, produces very little - except massive amounts of housing perhaps - and that is very dangerous in the consumer society that we live in, and it looks like we will continue to live in.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> That 8% unemployment rate back in 2008, whilst it may not have been a very good position to start from, was however a record LOW unemployment level in the history of Spain. And that was at the height of what people considered the boom years.
> Yes, absolutely, it was low - for Spain, which is exactly my point. Even in the good years Spain's unemployment was high compared to the UK, so even if things go back to how they were before, does that make Spain's economy strong?
> So I don't think anyone will seriously be expecting to get back to anything like that level for many years to come, unfortunately.
> Really? I think there are a lot of people, especially people who don't live here who think Spain is, and will be, in a comparable situation to the UK shortly, especially when they hear that the economy actually started to grow, without thinking about *how much *it has to grow
> ...


***


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I seem to remember reading a couple of years ago that Spain had a stock of over a million unsold houses/flats.
It would make sense to get shot of them before any new builds.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

My two penn'orth

Firstly, I hope that Sunday stays as Sunday. I recall fondly pubs only opening 12.00 - 14.00 and then again at 19.00, rather than 18.00 the rest of the week. It was a special day in that it was different. I have no religious or faith beliefs and never had, but the idea of one "day of rest" a week is not a bad one (even though I have spent 24 years disregarding it.

Secondly, on my last but one trip I was shown two houses which were clearly repossessions. The sight of discarded belongings left lying around, particularly children's toys, made me feel that to buy that house would be to profit from someone else's misery. I normally think that the process of buying or selling a house is simply business, not with those I didn't.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Relyat said:


> My two penn'orth
> 
> Firstly, I hope that Sunday stays as Sunday. I recall fondly pubs only opening 12.00 - 14.00 and then again at 19.00, rather than 18.00 the rest of the week. It was a special day in that it was different. I have no religious or faith beliefs and never had, but the idea of one "day of rest" a week is not a bad one (even though I have spent 24 years disregarding it.
> 
> Secondly, on my last but one trip I was shown two houses which were clearly repossessions. The sight of discarded belongings left lying around, particularly children's toys, made me feel that to buy that house would be to profit from someone else's misery. I normally think that the process of buying or selling a house is simply business, not with those I didn't.


Well said on both topics


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yep, we need jobs that generate jobs, and also that give work to the numerous qualified people that Spain has trained and that are now either unemployed or not here.
> 
> Spain, compared to other countries, produces very little - except massive amounts of housing perhaps - and that is very dangerous in the consumer society that we live in, and it looks like we will continue to live in.


We used to produce much more but can't any more because of the EU. For example, we used to produce lots of very good wine but thanks to the wine lake (full of rubbishy, overproduced, French plonk) the EU required Spain to grub out lots of very good vines; we could make much more from our own olives and olive-oil but following from years of Spain not being able to export its oil to other than those thieving Italians (at a low price) who adulterate it by just adding 4% of their own oil and then export it as "Italian Oil is Best" thus further blocking markets to the real stuff. Incidentally Spain is the world's *largest* producer of olive oil and most of it comes from this province.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> We used to produce much more but can't any more because of the EU. For example, we used to produce lots of very good wine but thanks to the wine lake (full of rubbishy, overproduced, French plonk) the EU required Spain to grub out lots of very good vines; we could make much more from our own olives and olive-oil but following from years of Spain not being able to export its oil to other than those thieving Italians (at a low price) who adulterate it by just adding 4% of their own oil and then export it as "Italian Oil is Best" thus further blocking markets to the real stuff. Incidentally Spain is the world's *largest* producer of olive oil and most of it comes from this province.


??? 

Spanish exports hit record highs last year

Spain now third largest wine exporter to China - after France and Australia.

Spanish production of pressed olive oil will be a record 1.595 million tons in 2013-14 - of which only 190,000 tons goes to Italy.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> We used to produce much more but can't any more because of the EU. For example, we used to produce lots of very good wine but thanks to the wine lake (full of rubbishy, overproduced, French plonk) the EU required Spain to grub out lots of very good vines; we could make much more from our own olives and olive-oil but following from years of Spain not being able to export its oil to other than those thieving Italians (at a low price) who adulterate it by just adding 4% of their own oil and then export it as "Italian Oil is Best" thus further blocking markets to the real stuff. Incidentally Spain is the world's *largest* producer of olive oil and most of it comes from this province.


We use Italian olive oil which we buy when we go to Italy. We buy Canino olive oil which is the best you can buy. It is pure to the region and recognised as one of the finest in the world. I have an old school friend who lives in Canino and works in the industry there. I highly recommend olive oil from Canino. It has a distinctive flavour and is just amazing. All our neighbours in our street ask us to bring some back with us. We can only do it when we drive there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'd love Spain to be improving its economic situation, but I seriously doubt that it is to an extent which means anything. For example, for the unemployment situation to get back to where it was before the crisis means that more than 3 million people will need to find jobs! And that's taking into account that in 2008 unemployment was at around 1,000,000, a little under 8% which wasn't a very good position to start from. So any talk of rates unemployment improving needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.


The FT of May 23 seems to be thinking along the same lines
. Generation Spain - FT.com

​


> No one, not even the government in Madrid, expects the scourge of mass unemployment to lift any time soon. The Spanish economy may no longer be in recession, and jobless numbers are down from their peak last year. But those who had the bad fortune to leave a Spanish school or university in the past few years – or who are starting their working life – face a bleak future. With jobs still in desperately short supply, many are likely to be afflicted by what economists call the “scarring effect”, a well-known pattern associated with young workers who fail to find work early on: even if they do eventually join the labour market, their earnings and career prospects will never be what they could have been.
> Their loss, however, is not just about money and economic advancement. Shut out of the housing market and forced to live with their parents or other relatives, countless young Spaniards are in effect barred from starting their own families. For some, locked in perpetual financial dependence and economic insecurity, that moment may never come.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

anonserg said:


> 1. I know Spaniards love their siesta and will do everything they can to ensure this tradition survive the modern world. Due to this, most shops close midday and re-open early evening for another 2-3 hours till actual closing (even in big touristy cities like Barcelona and Madrid). Do they think it will not help their business at all if they eliminate siesta time and open say from 10am-8pm every day? And what you guys think of this?


Well as it's been mentioned a bit in the bigger cities and areas more and more you can find business's open all day if you look hard enough. It's obviously viable enough for them to stay open so they do. Good for them I say but it doesn't help much if you are in a small village where everything shuts down in the afternoon and quite rightly it does beg the question where will the customers come from?
The smaller villages/towns that I have seen are ghost towns at 2 or 3 in the afternoon, so much so you would honestly not believe people actually live there. It's surreal.

Either you have to put up with it or you go to the next town over and find something that is open and support them as much as you can. It may not help struggling a local business much but maybe there is a lesson in that?



anonserg said:


> 2. I also notice this in other part of Europe (especially in France) where shops are closed on Sundays. In big cities with throngs of tourists like Paris and Barcelona (for example) it will surely help boost local economy if these shops are allowed to operate on Sundays. I am aware of the fact that it is written in the law and not just public opinion that shops should remain closed on Sundays so that people would rather spent time with families doing activities etc etc but isn't it such a waste to miss on sales especially from tourists. By extending their operating hours these businesses could also hire more people and helps reduce unemployment.
> 
> It seems wrong to me that they would rather have more time for leisure and to spent with families but business is stagnant (if not worse) and could have been saved if they cut siesta time and open on Sundays.


The Sunday thing is something that bugs me, not so much in Spain though for some reason. Maybe people are more laid back here. But yeah much of Europe has it written in law that shops don't open and in some cases even things like mowing your lawn is illegal on a Sunday, most of the time this dates back to some archaic religious reasoning and it's dressed up these days for a modern interpretation. 

Now don't get me wrong, I think the sentiment is nice and everything but this is the 21st century and if nothing else it is impractical. For busy families their weekends can be crippled by the fact they need to fit everything in on a Saturday, people have lives(yeah so do shopkeepers too) to live and there are far better ways to spend a Saturday than shopping, especially since everything else is closed on a Sunday so you can't put it off for a day.
Having young kids too there have been many times when you need an emergency trip to the shop for nappies or wipes and other times we have wished a pharmacy would be open on a Sunday, sickness doesn't discriminate what day of the week it is.

All that said some places do open, laws change but I guess what I think would be reasonable is that business's have the choice to open on a Sunday and it's purely up to them if they do or they don't.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Having young kids too there have been many times when you need an emergency trip to the shop for nappies or wipes and other times we have wished a pharmacy would be open on a Sunday, sickness doesn't discriminate what day of the week it is.


Don't you have a rota system for farmacias to be on duty at night and on Sundays (not actually open, but people can ring a bell and get their medication)? We've always had that in our town, exactly the same system as there is in the UK, with all the farmacias displaying a list of which one is on the rota when.

Lots of small neighbourhood general grocery stores (which sell nappies) are open on Sunday mornings too, along with bakeries and greengrocers.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't know to be honest there very well may be a system, the times when we needed it was more when we were in Belgium, they had a system like that but generally the day you need it it's the turn of the one farthest away. Luckily there hasn't been any call for it yet here.
A rota system is doable but it's still not the most convenient.

If you said Sunday afternoon then I'm sold. 
Lots of shops aren't open though, petrol stations are always open too but quite often they are out of nappies. The two closest to us rarely are stocked up.

There is always a compromise though, the big carrefour here opens some Sundays in summer. It's always packed to the rafters when it is.
I just think it should be an option as opposed to something that is forbidden.

edit: to add, I'm not at all suggesting that a 7 day week is any type of solution for the economic troubles in Spain or anything. I just think it's an outdated system and on nothing else than a personal level it's an inconvenience. 
That said I haven't wasted away to nothing and have managed quite fine with it the last 5 years, it's by no means the end of the world.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

playamonte said:


> I see ever increasing amounts of threads/questions about moving to Spain and (I can only speak for my area) a good number of shops re-opening / being built.
> 
> Yes to my eye things are on the up.


I'm not so sure about that, just been over for 6 days and it looked completely dead in the Fuengirola area.

The 2 of us stayed in a Villa that must be worth £1M in La Sierrezuela and I managed to snag it for 50 euro a night


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deanhankin said:


> I'm not so sure about that, just been over for 6 days and it looked completely dead in the Fuengirola area.
> 
> The 2 of us stayed in a Villa that must be worth £1M in La Sierrezuela and I managed to snag it for 50 euro a night


May have been worth a million eight years ago. Properties in our street that would have sold for a million € plus are now selling for almost half that. 
A friend with a five bedroomed front- line beach villa in a 'good' area put it on the market, stating she would accept no less than 500 k € ' in her hand' afterall fees and charges had been paid. She thought she was being realistic...
She had one offer in two years, 400k € gross for a house that was valued at over a million € in the halcyon days of over- priced properties.
As she wasn't too bothered about selling, she took the property off the market. 
The house we live in, on two large plots, would have been valued at around the million € mark ten years ago. I doubt you'd get half that for it now.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> May have been worth a million eight years ago. Properties in our street that would have sold for a million € plus are now selling for almost half that.
> A friend with a five bedroomed front- line beach villa in a 'good' area put it on the market, stating she would accept no less than 500 k € ' in her hand' afterall fees and charges had been paid. She thought she was being realistic...
> She had one offer in two years, 400k € gross for a house that was valued at over a million € in the halcyon days of over- priced properties.
> As she wasn't too bothered about selling, she took the property off the market.
> The house we live in, on two large plots, would have been valued at around the million € mark ten years ago. I doubt you'd get half that for it now.



How would you know what it was worth when you have never seen it? Peoples presumptions on here some times are staggering. Maybe it was worth 2 million 8 years ago? Ever think of that?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

deanhankin said:


> How would you know what it was worth when you have never seen it? Peoples presumptions on here some times are staggering. Maybe it was worth 2 million 8 years ago? Ever think of that?


No, no, no, no...... it was worth 3,000,000€. 25c 9 years and 4 months ago!!!!!!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

jojo said:


> No, no, no, no...... it was worth 3,000,000€. 25c 9 years and 4 months ago!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Whatever it was worth on the open market I didn't ask but it was 50 euro a night to rent a huge place with 7 beds all with en-suite bathrooms.

The fact that the bars, restaurants and shops in town were virtually dead was to me a great shock, add that to the price of the accommodation and the fact that there were actually spare seats on the Ryanair flight back (which I've never seen before in nearly 10 years of visiting Malaga) and you get a picture of where the place is going.

I had a very interesting conversation with a wealthy friend from Estepona who has lived on the CDS for 30 odd years where he stated that everyone he knew who had significant assets in the UK had moved out of Spain due to the changes in the tax laws, these people have taken their money with them and were no longer employing gardeners, builders etc.

Did I also mention how down at heel the place looked? What a mess, such a shame to see such a great place suffering in so many ways. I appreciate that this was just a short visit and Spain's a big place but it hardly looked like it was on the up to me.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

deanhankin said:


> Whatever it was worth on the open market I didn't ask but it was 50 euro a night to rent a huge place with 7 beds all with en-suite bathrooms.
> 
> The fact that the bars, restaurants and shops in town were virtually dead was to me a great shock, add that to the price of the accommodation and the fact that there were actually spare seats on the Ryanair flight back (which I've never seen before in nearly 10 years of visiting Malaga) and you get a picture of where the place is going.
> 
> ...


The occupation of Ryanair flights is no indication of anything other than people are fed up with being ripped off and, to some extent, the same goes for Easyjet. My sister this year will be flying BA from London City to Granada with more luggage and more cheaply and at more sociable times (especially for us).


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

deanhankin said:


> I had a very interesting conversation with a wealthy friend from Estepona who has lived on the CDS for 30 odd years where he stated that everyone he knew who had significant assets in the UK had moved out of Spain due to the changes in the tax laws, these people have taken their money with them and were no longer employing gardeners, builders etc.


But there haven't been any changes in tax laws, other than the requirement to make an annual declaration listing any assets held overseas amounting to over €50,000 in any asset class - although everyone should have been declaring any income generated from such assets on their Spanish tax return anyway, always was the case. Are we to assume therefore that all these people had been cheating the system for years and were just nervous the Spanish authorities were going to catch up with them? Surely not, it's only those shifty foreigners who go in for cheating, no?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deanhankin said:


> How would you know what it was worth when you have never seen it? Peoples presumptions on here some times are staggering. Maybe it was worth 2 million 8 years ago? Ever think of that?


Well, I live here, have seen boom turn to bust, I know the area and I very much doubt any property worth that much would be found in that area...possibly but not likely. There are exceptions to every rule. 
There are areas where you can rent seven bedroomed villas for under 500 euros a month....

And your wealthy friend in Estepona sees a picture I don't see and again, Estepona is a place a few km down the road from my village.
I can tell you that there are very many truly wealthy British immigrants happily living in Estepona with no intention of moving away from Spain and whose assets are most definitely not being repatriated with or without them!
It's those with less 'wealth' who are usually most concerned, needlessly so, about having their assets grabbed, a painful process no doubt.

We had part of the house painted today and our gsrdener will be reporting for duty as usual. Not sure we'd consider ourselves 'wealthy', though...
Certainly not ten-bob millionaires, of which there are many on the CdS, it seems.
As for Ryanair - never used them. I prefer BA. Of the budget airlines, Jet2 seem to offer the best service.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

deanhankin said:


> Whatever it was worth on the open market I didn't ask but it was 50 euro a night to rent a huge place with 7 beds all with en-suite bathrooms.
> 
> The fact that the bars, restaurants and shops in town were virtually dead was to me a great shock, add that to the price of the accommodation and the fact that there were actually spare seats on the Ryanair flight back (which I've never seen before in nearly 10 years of visiting Malaga) and you get a picture of where the place is going.
> 
> ...



I have a friend who lives in Marbella and he said the same, altho he also said that there are some very wealthy Russians moving in and are spending big time - so that may help in the long term - altho he questioned their legalities 

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> The occupation of Ryanair flights is no indication of anything other than people are fed up with being ripped off and, to some extent, the same goes for Easyjet.


 Not sure what the occupation of Ryanair or Easyjet flights has to do with whether the tide is turning tho ????

Jo xxx


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> But there haven't been any changes in tax laws, other than the requirement to make an annual declaration listing any assets held overseas amounting to over €50,000 in any asset class - although everyone should have been declaring any income generated from such assets on their Spanish tax return anyway, always was the case. Are we to assume therefore that all these people had been cheating the system for years and were just nervous the Spanish authorities were going to catch up with them? Surely not, it's only those shifty foreigners who go in for cheating, no?


Other than the great big change you just pointed out?


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The occupation of Ryanair flights is no indication of anything other than people are fed up with being ripped off and, to some extent, the same goes for Easyjet. My sister this year will be flying BA from London City to Granada with more luggage and more cheaply and at more sociable times (especially for us).


Not sure what your sister got to do with it either but if you want to let us all know then fire away old chap


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

They may not be flying Ryanair or all travelling to Fuengirola or surrounding areas, but the number of passengers flying into Malaga airport is increasing:-

Pasajeros Aeropuerto Málaga aumentan 14,4 % en abril de 2014 respecto 2013

The amount of domestic passengers has now begun to increase too, which I would say IS one indication that the tide is turning.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

deanhankin said:


> Other than the great big change you just pointed out?


If you've (not you personally) been declaring and paying everything you should have been paying, how come being asked to send in a list of your assets is a great big change?

America requires this of all its residents, so does France, Germany, Italy .....
Nothing special about the Spanish declaration at all.

Should Spain not be making any effort to crack down on people hiding assets overseas to evade paying tax, then? Tax evasion is a major part of why Spain is in the mess it's in.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> They may not be flying Ryanair or all travelling to Fuengirola or surrounding areas, but the number of passengers flying into Malaga airport is increasing:-
> 
> Pasajeros Aeropuerto Málaga aumentan 14,4 % en abril de 2014 respecto 2013
> 
> The amount of domestic passengers has now begun to increase too, which I would say IS one indication that the tide is turning.



Marvellous :fingerscrossed:


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> If you've (not you personally) been declaring and paying everything you should have been paying, how come being asked to send in a list of your assets is a great big change?
> 
> America requires this of all its residents, so does France, Germany, Italy .....
> Nothing special about the Spanish declaration at all.



Whether or not, it's frightened em off. Fortunately you have nothing to worry about


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

The asset declaration is not a change to tax law. Asking people to declare assets is not a new tax. As Lynn points out, the implications are that those who haven't been paying all their taxes might suddenly have to (or else) but that's a different matter.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Chopera said:


> The asset declaration is not a change to tax law. Asking people to declare assets is not a new tax. As Lynn points out, the implications are that those who haven't been paying all their taxes might suddenly have to (or else) but that's a different matter.


I refer you to the earlier answer, I don't live there or have property there so it doesn't effect me


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> The asset declaration is not a change to tax law. Asking people to declare assets is not a new tax. As Lynn points out, the implications are that those who haven't been paying all their taxes might suddenly have to (or else) but that's a different matter.


I know little about taxes, but it does seem a shame that the rich up and leave for fear of them, when they were living and spending vast amounts of money - as I pointed out earlier tho, they seem to be slowly but surely being replaced by rather wealthy Russians?? 

I think the tide has stopped moving right now and in the next few months, it will move again - one way or the other??!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I know little about taxes, but it does seem a shame that the rich up and leave for fear of them, when they were living and spending vast amounts of money - as I pointed out earlier tho, they seem to be slowly but surely being replaced by rather wealthy Russians??
> 
> I think the tide has stopped moving right now and in the next few months, it will move again - one way or the other??!
> 
> Jo xxx


Who says the rich are upping and leaving? I've seen no evidence of that. If that were the case then wouldn't the super-rich Russians be upping and offing too?

The truly rich have no fear of taxes. They pay expensive accountants to find loopholes for them to wriggle through.
As Leonora Helmsley said 'Only little people pay taxes'.

Though she did go to prison for tax evasion....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Who says the rich are upping and leaving? I've seen no evidence of that. If that were the case then wouldn't the super-rich Russians be upping and offing too?
> 
> The truly rich have no fear of taxes. They pay expensive accountants to find loopholes for them to wriggle through.
> As Leonora Helmsley said 'Only little people pay taxes'.
> ...


It was mentioned here



deanhankin said:


> I had a very interesting conversation with a wealthy friend from Estepona who has lived on the CDS for 30 odd years where he stated that everyone he knew who had significant assets in the UK had moved out of Spain due to the changes in the tax laws, these people have taken their money with them and were no longer employing gardeners, builders etc.




Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deanhankin said:


> Other than the great big change you just pointed out?


It's not a change. It's a statement of assets which should have been declared anyway. So a reaffirmation. A kind of 'you're drinking in the last chance saloon' warning to the tax dodgers,'submarines' and all those somewhat unsavoury types who like to live off Spain and give law-abiding guiris a bad name. Great if they are going...no loss.

But you are right about Fuengi and that area being run down. It's never been that smart an area though although parts are pleasant enough. Marbella it ain't.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> It was mentioned here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not what I'd consider a reliable source. Sounds like the usual bar talk.
Has anyone actually read or heard from a credible source that HNWIs are leaving Spain because they fear being caught for non-declaring assets?
It could be true of the types I referred to in my last post but we're well rid of them.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

deanhankin said:


> Not sure what your sister got to do with it either but if you want to let us all know then fire away old chap


YOU were the one raised the matter about a Ryanair flight having empty seats!!! and less of the OLD!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jojo said:


> I know little about taxes, but it does seem a shame that the rich up and leave for fear of them, when they were living and spending vast amounts of money - as I pointed out earlier tho, they seem to be slowly but surely being replaced by rather wealthy Russians??


This rather reminds me of those wealthy individuals who go to the press before an election and say they'll leave the country if Labour get in.

Should a country effectively be held to ransom and threatened by such people? Weren't those very same people complaining bitterly about the trades unions "holding the country to ransom" by going on strike to further THEIR members' financial interests?


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

One thing changed in my part of Madrid in May. I offer free language classes (well not quite free, I ask for donations of old unwanted books - that way people feel they're not getting charity and I sometimes manage to sell a book via the web) in the shop - and people have stopped coming (or even starting lessons). The one person who popped in and told me why, a hostal manager, said it was because she was just too busy, which ties in with the increased tourist numbers we've been told about. Now it may be that the others were away on holidays, but in either case it does seem to suggest that people are better off. Of course this is just an anecdote from central Madrid, and other places no doubt can be in a different boat. Another positive bit of news in this part of Madrid is that permission has been given to re-develop the Edificio España in Madrid, and that will create building jobs in this part, followed by the hiring of hotel staff.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

webmarcos said:


> Another positive bit of news in this part of Madrid is that permission has been given to re-develop the Edificio España in Madrid, and that will create building jobs in this part, followed by the hiring of hotel staff.


Whilst nobody can deny that this is good news - I think it scandalous that that building on the emblematic Plaza de España was literally left to rack and ruin - it is just the same old litany of Spain; a big building/ refurbishing job with just how many high skilled long term jobs at the end of it?? And more hotel industry employment. It's good, but it's not _that_ good.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

I would say the tide is starting to turn, albeit slowly. This is based on the following:

In our nearest town, two new supermarkets have just sprung up in the last half year. Previously none have opened up for many years.

Local council completed new dual carriageway approach on one side of town complete with cylce way, pavements, street lights and a plethora of large palm trees.

Very occasional new houses popping up. Never saw this in recent years.

National unemployment coming down every month now.

My daughter's Spanish boyfriend even managed to find a job for first time in years.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

el romeral said:


> I would say the tide is starting to turn, albeit slowly. This is based on the following:
> 
> In our nearest town, two new supermarkets have just sprung up in the last half year. Previously none have opened up for many years.
> 
> ...


Supermarkets sound good, job sounds good, unempoyment also sounds good although 24% unemployment instead of 25% really isn't (see a previous post of mine about taking a pinch of salt with those figures). New dual carriageway etc and occasional house popping up smacks of the type of spending that got us into the mess that we're in now! (that also comes up in a previous post) I hope that expenditure can be justified because road building comes out of central government spending.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

el romeral said:


> My daughter's Spanish boyfriend even managed to find a job for first time in years.


That bit is particularly good news. A couple of Spanish people living near to me are now also working again for the first time in years, and not on temporary job creation schemes. One girl has been taken on again in the shop where she used to work and an older man in his '50s also told my OH last week that he's working now, although I don't know where. There are so many more still needing jobs, though. Anybody who gets one must feel as though they've won the lottery, the odds aren't that much worse.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

More green shoots - Spain's GDP up 0,4% in the first quarter, driven by increased consumption:

http://www.idealista.com/news/finanzas-personales/fiscalidad/2014/05/29/728639-espana-crecio-un-0-4-de-enero-a-marzo-impulsada-por-el-consumo?xts=352991&xtor=EPR-75-[esta_pasando_20140529]-20140529-[notecon_3_titular]-[]-[]


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Well, he's President of Telefonica so he must know little bit about business and economics, but blimey, I think this guy is more optimistic than even the most positive of we forum members!


Alierta pronostica que el paro bajará al 14% en cuatro años | EconomÃ­a | EL PAÃ�S

Unemployment to fall to 14% within 4 years? That would be below the historical average for Spain (which is 15/16%). It would be wonderful if he was proved right, but ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've been looking around me with a bit more attention when I walk Our Little Azor down to the village and back each morning. 
I've noticed two lots of building work, obviously commercial properties of some type, both substantial reconstructions of buildings that had stood unused since we've lived here. I think one of them is an extension to the adjacent BS building.
We don't have that many shops, around twenty, excluding banks, bars and restaurants. A Chinese shop has opened, a mini- market has opened..this should do well as apart from the butcher, baker, greengrocer and fishmonger, there is no grocery shop as such.
A shop hiring posh clothes for Communions and weddings opened two years ago and amazingly is still open for business.
One half- finished residential property near our house has been finished and has been up for sale for quite a while. 
It's hard to say what this means in terms of 'green shoots'. A couple of shops and a bar/ restaurant closed over the past year and a bar which opened two years ago closed from October to April.
I don't think the local unemployment rate has decreased.
A lot will depend on domestic tourism. Not a lot of Northerners come here, it's usually Spanish families.
One interesting point: five years ago there were a fair number of Madrileños who rented big houses for the summer. They arrived with children, nannies and dogs and were most unpopular with locals, who claimed they were rude and arrogant. One villager told me that one family made the nanny sleep in the garage!
These families haven't been much in evidence over the past four years.
An Arab family bought a house on several plots at the end of our street a year ago and have had workmen from a local firm in there doing it up since the family bought it! They've built fancy walls and gates, laid new paths and water features out side and God knows what inside. One useful feature is the placing of thirty or so Moorish lights on pointy bits of the garden walls which makes up for thelack of street lighting.
So all in all, more money must be circulating..yet I'd say it's a trickle, not a flood.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Whilst I'm sure the lights are pretty I'd be rather peeved if they were lighting up my nice dark corner of a street.
Street lights are a turn off for me so I'd be happy to have a lack of them or at the least see them switched off after midnight.

Horses for courses I guess.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I saw in my local paper yesterday that 1400 young people in our town are to be taken on when the Junta de Andalucia's latest job creation and training scheme, the Plan de Empleo, gets off the ground.

Better for them to be doing something and getting some experience, and getting paid for it, than hanging around doing nothing I suppose.

But every silver lining has a cloud - I'm bracing myself for the return of dozens of noisy motos to our quiet streets. Their absence, save for a handful, has been possibly the only good thing about La Crisis. I shall just have to keep gritting my teeth and repeating the mantra "this is a positive sign, I musn't grumble, this is a positive sign ...".


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pazcat said:


> Whilst I'm sure the lights are pretty I'd be rather peeved if they were lighting up my nice dark corner of a street.
> Street lights are a turn off for me so I'd be happy to have a lack of them or at the least see them switched off after midnight.
> 
> Horses for courses I guess.


Sometimes I get the bus into Estepona in the evening and get the bus back after dark. Sandra usually drops me off at the bus stop on my way out as it's a good fifteen minutes from our house to the nearest bus stop. I walk back as if she's watching football or in the bath or in bed I don't want her having to get the car out to pick me up
Our street is pitch dark, there are few houses and usually not a soul about. .No way am I a timid person but some level of street lighting is reassuring, even if for a short stretch and some distance from our house and in the shapeof pretty little Moorish style lights.
Street lighting is actually quite important for women pedestrians. Lone women obliged to use public transport at night can feel vulnerable walking in dark streets.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

More changes announced by Rajoy today (and he says May's unemployment figures, to be announced next Tuesday, will be "more positive than has been seen for a long time"). 


Rajoy bajará del 30% al 25% el tipo de sociedades de las grandes empresas | Política | EL PAÍS


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> More changes announced by Rajoy today (and he says May's unemployment figures, to be announced next Tuesday, will be "more positive than has been seen for a long time").
> 
> 
> Rajoy bajará del 30% al 25% el tipo de sociedades de las grandes empresas | Política | EL PAÍS


Yes, I saw that..
But then, the Populares having taken a pasting last Sunday, I guess they're gearing up for next year's municipal elections.
But as we know, capitalism is a series of cycles, boom and bust, bulls and bears...so maybe this is, to paraphrase Churchill , not the beginning of the end but the start of the beginning.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I saw that..
> But then, the Populares having taken a pasting last Sunday, I guess they're gearing up for next year's municipal elections.
> But as we know, capitalism is a series of cycles, boom and bust, bulls and bears...so maybe this is, to paraphrase Churchill , not the beginning of the end but the start of the beginning.


The majority of commentators below the article certainly don't seem too impressed!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I saw in my local paper yesterday that 1400 young people in our town are to be taken on when the Junta de Andalucia's latest job creation and training scheme, the Plan de Empleo, gets off the ground.
> 
> Better for them to be doing something and getting some experience, and getting paid for it, than hanging around doing nothing I suppose.
> 
> But every silver lining has a cloud - I'm bracing myself for the return of dozens of noisy motos to our quiet streets. Their absence, save for a handful, has been possibly the only good thing about La Crisis. I shall just have to keep gritting my teeth and repeating the mantra "this is a positive sign, I musn't grumble, this is a positive sign ...".


Any idea what sort of jobs they will be creating?

My little town has been allocated 150,000€ under the scheme, and young people have been invited to submit proposals. I'm anticipating a spate of new hairdressing salons and bars which will go out of business in three months. But you never know ... 

One enterprising young chap has started making iPad covers, wallets and other bits and bobs out of locally-produced cork. They are really nice, soft and flexible, I have a pair of honey-coloured cork espadrilles. I know lots of people would buy them if they could, but despite my nagging he's never got round to setting up a website! He just sells them at craft fairs.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Any idea what sort of jobs they will be creating?
> 
> My little town has been allocated 150,000€ under the scheme, and young people have been invited to submit proposals. I'm anticipating a spate of new hairdressing salons and bars which will go out of business in three months. But you never know ...
> 
> One enterprising young chap has started making iPad covers, wallets and other bits and bobs out of locally-produced cork. They are really nice, soft and flexible, I have a pair of honey-coloured cork espadrilles. I know lots of people would buy them if they could, but despite my nagging he's never got round to setting up a website! He just sells them at craft fairs.


We're getting €1,680,000 but how they plan to spend it, I don't know. Sadly, there's already the usual fighting and accusations of bias going on.

MarÃ­n teme que el Plan de Empleo Joven de la Junta sea â€œsolo para los allegados del PPâ€� - Diario AxarquÃ­a


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

How exactly will this grant money be awarded, do we know? I'm presuming there will be some kind of adjudicating panel, hopefully with some members with sound knowledge of the local economy and business sense.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Activity in the housing market was mentioned earlier in the thread - we've just had an email from the owner of a house just opposite who rents it out when they're not here. They have 4 bookings in June, the first from someone coming to complete on a house nearby which they viewed a few weeks ago, and the other 3 all on house hunting trips. What's going on????


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Activity in the housing market was mentioned earlier in the thread - we've just had an email from the owner of a house just opposite who rents it out when they're not here. They have 4 bookings in June, the first from someone coming to complete on a house nearby which they viewed a few weeks ago, and the other 3 all on house hunting trips. What's going on????


Yet someone I know with a house she rents has very few bookings this summer, when for the past few years she's not had a free week...

There's no doubt that the drop in prices for residential properties in most areas is attracting many Northern Europeans with more limited budgets.

A year ago I posted about an apartment complex on the edge of the campo where prices for pisos were slashed in downward percentages until a billboard appeared with 'Diganos el precio!' Quite a few of these apartments now appear to be occupied.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Around our house in Tenerife:

One neighbour just bought and is renovating, next door neighbour is plastering and painting, across the street house being painted, 4 doors down house bought by some Brits and is being renovated, house opposite that one has been bought by some Germans.

So for sure in my micro area there is a lot of activity. Also tourism numbers were up for Tenerife as a whole last year


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Its all very well attracting "foreigners" with cheap house prices, but then what?? Unless they're pensioners, its highly likely they'll be looking for work and if they are pensioners, they may well use up more Spanish resources than they put in??????? 

So alongside cheap property, there needs to be more incentives to start up businesses maybe???? I dont think tourism is going to generate enough guaranteed income

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jojo said:


> Its all very well attracting "foreigners" with cheap house prices, but then what?? Unless they're pensioners, its highly likely they'll be looking for work and if they are pensioners, they may well use up more Spanish resources than they put in???????
> 
> So alongside cheap property, there needs to be more incentives to start up businesses maybe???? I dont think tourism is going to generate enough guaranteed income
> 
> Jo xxx


Without exception, the ones near me are being bought as holiday homes. The good points are that the owners are neither going to be competing for jobs nor being a drain on resources, they'll put money into the local economy by spending on house renovations, new furniture and appliances, pay people to look after them in their absence, etc. The bad is that as with places in the UK which become taken over by second home owners, a lot of the day to day "life" and vitality goes out of the area and small local shops don't survive.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> How exactly will this grant money be awarded, do we know? I'm presuming there will be some kind of adjudicating panel, hopefully with some members with sound knowledge of the local economy and business sense.


The ayuntamientos will decide - in our case, the mayor and the one councillor who's still talking to him. They have about as much business sense as I do (probably less!)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

well, my thoughts (dumb blonde thoughts lol) would be to use any money to either start up or woo existing manufacturing on a large scale. Spain has great infrastructure (altho that could be bettered to give employment) , plenty of space and potential employees. Tourism, altho it has its place, isnt what it once was, with many folk now jetting all over the world. Spain was once "the" place, but the world has moved on, so I cant see that being their saviour - unless they resurrect the plans to build a "mega theme park" ??

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jojo said:


> well, my thoughts (dumb blonde thoughts lol) would be to use any money to either start up or woo existing manufacturing on a large scale. Spain has great infrastructure (altho that could be bettered to give employment) , plenty of space and potential employees. Tourism, altho it has its place, isnt what it once was, with many folk now jetting all over the world. Spain was once "the" place, but the world has moved on, so I cant see that being their saviour - unless they resurrect the plans to build a "mega theme park" ??
> 
> Jo xxx


I think Rajoy's Government is hoping to move in that direction with the cut in taxation for large companies which was announced yesterday.

On a smaller local scale, we've had one of the infamous "white elephants" in the shape of a Parque Tecnoalimentario which was completed just after the start of La Crisis and has stood empty and unused ever since. However, since the beginning of this year 3 firms have now signed up for new factories on the site - but have got grants from various pots of public money to do so (and there are said to be at least 6 other agreements with various companies in the food production sector in the pipeline to set up shop there). So public money is going to the private sector in a bid to stimulate economic activity and employment.

As for tourism, personally I think Spain is benefiting from the fact that currently there is so much unrest in those more "exotic" destinations which people have been visiting in more recent years - Thailand, Kenya, Egypt, India, Turkey, et al. Long haul flying has got more expensive too, with large rises in APD. There's more emphasis now on selling Spain as a "cultural tourism" destination rather than the cheap sun and booze beach holidays, which I think is a good thing.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

best thing they could do is

A) cut taxes for new businesses
B) sack half the government employees
C) reform long term contracts so people are not encourage to employ black
D) Stick 2 fingers up to the EU and get their own currency back so they can devalue and make goods cheaper and make Spain a cheap place to go on holiday.
E) Lets some banks go bankrupt
F) Give residency to anyone who buys a flat over 100k but not let them take benefits for X years of work ( eu probably stops that one too)
G) Have an Amnesty for all illegally built properties so people can trust Spain again.
H) Encourage foreign investment by being business friendly by cutting regulations, maybe a flat tax.
I) Let low income earners pay no tax at all

They could do loads of things but they will not because they only care about their own jobs at election time and perfer the status quo. About time elected officials must have some real life experience to even be qualified to run a country.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> There's more emphasis now on selling Spain as a "cultural tourism" destination rather than the cheap sun and booze beach holidays, which I think is a good thing.


That is very much to be hoped for, since there is a very wide range of history in this peninsula, history that many, if not most, Spaniards (let alone, the incomers) know very little about, ranging right from man's first habitation through to the present day.

How about we incomers take the initiative and each (we are spread over a large part of the country) research our own area, then put together a pamphlet for submission to the Ayuntamientos to boost cultural tourism? It may not only boost the number of paying visitors to our respective areas, it may also show others (Spanish people, the local authorities, etc.) that we *are* part of where they live and are prepared to do something to help.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

maxd said:


> best thing they could do is
> 
> a) cut taxes for new businesses
> b) sack half the government employees and add more millions to the unemployed list!
> ...


q.e.d.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> That is very much to be hoped for, since there is a very wide range of history in this peninsula, history that many, if not most, Spaniards (let alone, the incomers) know very little about, ranging right from man's first habitation through to the present day.
> 
> How about we incomers take the initiative and each (we are spread over a large part of the country) research our own area, then put together a pamphlet for submission to the Ayuntamientos to boost cultural tourism? It may not only boost the number of paying visitors to our respective areas, it may also show others (Spanish people, the local authorities, etc.) that we *are* part of where they live and are prepared to do something to help.


We did something like that here two years ago. We got together with the newly elected councillor for tourism and suggested loads of things they could do to attract more foreign tourists to the area - updating their turismo website for a start (it only showed festival dates in the past!) Unfortunately because of budget cuts + inertia nothing much happened. My own blog has far more tourist information about Alcalá than the official one, and receives thousands of hits.

A handful of us guiris organise a classical music festival and a gallery trail every year which bring in lots of visitors. We do almost all the work, but the ayuntamiento have to have their logo on everything, and take the lion's share of the credit at press conferences.

So, to sum up it is worth the effort but don't expect miracles!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> well, my thoughts (dumb blonde thoughts lol) would be to use any money to either start up or woo existing manufacturing on a large scale. Spain has great infrastructure (altho that could be bettered to give employment) , plenty of space and potential employees. Tourism, altho it has its place, isnt what it once was, with many folk now jetting all over the world. Spain was once "the" place, but the world has moved on, so I cant see that being their saviour - unless they resurrect the plans to build a "mega theme park" ??
> 
> Jo xxx


Actually Spain's tourism is on the increase - 7% up on last year for the first quarter of 2014. In March alone, nearly 4 million tourists came here from overseas. The biggest markets are UK, Germany and Scandinavia. It's a cheap and easy destination for northern Europeans to get some winter sun. 

España recibió más de 10 millones de turistas internacionales hasta marzo, un incremento del 7,2% ? España ? Noticias, última hora, vídeos y fotos de España en lainformacion.com


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

jojo said:


> Its all very well attracting "foreigners" with cheap house prices, but then what?? Unless they're pensioners, its highly likely they'll be looking for work and if they are pensioners, they may well use up more Spanish resources than they put in???????
> 
> So alongside cheap property, there needs to be more incentives to start up businesses maybe???? I dont think tourism is going to generate enough guaranteed income
> 
> Jo xxx


If they're pensioners, most of their pensions will be spent in Spain, isn't that a good thing? Everything they buy here will provide (mostly) 21% tax to the state and the rest to the local economy. Spain receives contributions for each pensioner's healthcare. If they buy property, quite a lot  of various taxes will be payable to local and national bodies. I'd say pensioners buying property here is a great thing for all concerned!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

maxd said:


> best thing they could do is
> 
> A) cut taxes for new businesses
> B) sack half the government employees
> ...


A) already happening with cuts to autonomo contributions for newly self-employed people
B) I think we can all see the effects of having already got rid of too many doctors, nurses, other hospital staff, teachers etc.
C) Having still more people with insecure work contracts so that they can't get mortgages is going to do wonders for the property market, isn't it?
D) Spain is already a cheap place to go on holiday (comparatively speaking). Should the financial security of millions of Spanish citizens be further threatened (decimating the value of property they own, for example) in order to make it even cheaper for downmarket tourism - I think otherwise. Spanish exports are already doing well whilst the country is in the Euro.
E) As long as they're not the ones you bank with or your pension funds have any money invested in, I suppose. 
F) Spain already has a benefits system which doesn't pay out to people who haven't contributed.
G) IMO what you propose would be a sure and certain method of ensuring that exactly the same thing happens again and rural land eventually becomes covered in little boxes made out of ticky tacky. I'd prefer to see the illegal ones demolished and those buyers who really did buy in good faith (not the ones who only had licences for agricultural buildings but built villas with swimming pools instead) compensated.
H) Foreign investment seems to be coming back to Spain anyway. Nothing good ever seems to come out of a lack of regulation, the banking crisis being a prime example. We all have to pay for that.
I) There's likely to be a very small move in that direction soon, according to what's been said by Rajoy and his Ministers about the reform of the fiscal system.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> A) already happening with cuts to autonomo contributions for newly self-employed people
> B) I think we can all see the effects of having already got rid of too many doctors, nurses, other hospital staff, teachers etc.
> C) Having still more people with insecure work contracts so that they can't get mortgages is going to do wonders for the property market, isn't it?
> D) Spain is already a cheap place to go on holiday (comparatively speaking). Should the financial security of millions of Spanish citizens be further threatened (decimating the value of property they own, for example) in order to make it even cheaper for downmarket tourism - I think otherwise. Spanish exports are already doing well whilst the country is in the Euro.
> ...


Well said. The last thing Spain needs is to have thousands more on paro. It's often forgotten that PSOE Governments ran a surplus until they had to borrow to cover the massive outlay on paro caused by the failure of the construction sector, itself caused by excessive private not public borrowing.
Max lives in Prague and should know all about downmarket tourism. That is the last thing Spain needs. As you rightly say, Spain is already a comparatively cheap holiday destination and property prices are surely at rock bottom.
As for illegal builds - the situation is more complicated than it seems on the surface. Many people thought they could save money by cutting corners. Others bought in good faith. 
I lived in a small dozy hamlet on the outskirts of Prague, surrounded by very attractive countryside. Within the three years I lived there a virtual new town of several hundreds, maybe thousands of horrible tacky houses were constructed around a similar hamlet a few km up the road. No shops, no school, no medical facilities...just row upon row of little boxes.
Europe should never be the playground for speculators whether Spain, the Czech Republic or Greece. 
It's great for guiris who are picking up villas for less than the price of a semi in Huddersfield, not so good for those who have had these houses repossessed through no fault of their own.
As for Spain leaving the EU....the only advantage would be the ability to print more money and lower the value of the currency. That would lead to inflation, scarcely a stimulus to a revived economy.
There's also the little matter of the billions of euros owed to the ECB, a debt incurred precisely because of the lack of regulation which allowed the flow of cheap money into Spain in the first place.. that and the lack of due diligence on the part of many lenders.


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## webmarcos (Dec 25, 2012)

May figures - unemployed down 111000, employed up 198000










Of course many will say you'd expect a fall in May, but these are being heralded as the biggest fall in unemployment figures ever for this month. Long way to go yet, but the trend is looking good.

El paro desciende en 111.916 personas en el mayor descenso en un mes de mayo - ABC.es


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

webmarcos said:


> May figures - unemployed down 111000, employed up 198000
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The figures will always be distorted because of those who can't claim unemployment, either because their entitlement has run out or because they aren't eligible.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

According to Knight Frank, prices of luxury properties in Madrid are up 5%. Because of higher demand there is a shortage of suitable properties, driving the prices higher. Their opinion is that, in this sector, prices touched bottom in 2013.

http://www.idealista.com/news/inmobiliario/vivienda/2014/06/02/728729-el-precio-de-la-vivienda-en-las-zonas-mas-exclusivas-de-madrid-ha-subido-un-5-segun?xtor=EPR-75-[esta_pasando_20140603]-20140603-[notinmo_2_titular]-[]-[]

I must say that around me, there seems to be work going on in at least one house in every street. The guy who nearly bought my house some months ago has bought one a couple of roads away. It was a 'new' property, built around four years ago and empty ever since, priced at 50% more than mine. I'm sure the developer was only too pleased to do the unusual deal he was requesting from me, involving lots of pieces of paper :tsk:. The buyer has now spent three months 'upgrading' said house, including covering and heating the pool, landscaping the garden, spotlights, security system, solar panels, well, tall fencing, garden casita, new external paint, etc.... Some people still have money!


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> The figures will always be distorted because of those who can't claim unemployment, either because their entitlement has run out or because they aren't eligible.


This was not the case last year then & the year before that etc.


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