# ex-ex-pats



## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

Not everyone who moves to a foreign country ends up dying there. I planned my retirement abroad for many years and read a lot about it, and thought it would be worthwhile to summarize what I read for others considering living overseas to read and for everyone else on the forum to argue about, er, discuss.

One statistic I found striking isn't directly applicable - it was that of the non-US people from outside the US who move to the US, half ultimately return home. I believe that the statistic excluded those who enter the US illegally or for seasonal work. The measured population all intended to live in the US indefinitely, and half ultimately changed their minds.
It would be interesting to see if that also applies to US natives that decide to live outside the US. 

Of course there are some people who move overseas and realize in rather short order that it was a horrible mistake. So there is a good chunk of people that last one year or less.

But the other thing I read was that there is a spike in the percentage of people who return home at about the six year mark. Someone who has been living in a country for seven years is significantly more likely to live there forever than someone who has lived there only five years. 

I have a theory on why this is so. When moving to a new country, there are differences. Some things seem better. You think, "Why don't they do it like that in the US, it would be so much better?". Those cost you nothing to adapt to. Some things are worse. Of those, some you can accept with an "Oh, well" attitude, but some register as annoyances. Little niggling PITA things that bug you. Over time, annoyances like that seem to bother a person more and more. My theory is that six years is about the amount of time it takes for things like that to hit the boiling point for a lot of people.

I've only been here one year, but kind of figure myself as being a six-year type guy. We'll see. 

The last reason a lot of people move back to the US is health care. Hitting a particular age like 65 when they want to see doctors under Medicare, or 70 when they can't get coverage in the foreign country, or just when health deteriorates below a certain point and they feel they can't handle it any more. I don't think people who move back for health reasons contribute to the six-year spike, I think every year a certain percent move back for health reasons, just due to the effects of time on health.

I think it's important for people considering a move overseas to understand that, statistically, there's a high probability they will end up being ex-ex-pats sooner or later and to plan accordingly.


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## travelingrae (Dec 9, 2016)

That's an interesting theory and I bet you're onto something.

With Mexico, I never had the culture shock and adjustment I was expecting to have. I know a lot of that has to do with being able to speak Spanish, which means that things that seem convoluted to some folks don't do me because I understand the process and can usually reduce the number of steps, but I had a huge culture shock in Spain so it's definitely not just a linguistic thing.

I've been in Mexico the equivalent of just over a year now (two six-month stretches, plus I've been here a month now on my RT). The rare time something genuinely annoys me, I remember how much worse that thing would be in the part of Canada where I grew up (Quebec) and I calm right down, whether it's dealing with red tape (which Mexico has nothing on Quebec) or terrible drivers.

I think I got to the point where so much was intolerable to me in Canada that Mexico just has to work because there is no going back for me at this point. I keep reminding myself that I have an infinitely better quality of life on a fraction of the money it takes me to scrape by back there. At this point, I'm committed to staying until I get citizenship. But having such nomadic blood, I could see myself then only living in Mexico part-time and going somewhere else the rest of the time, just to discover yet another different culture.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

<eastwind>
You sound like you are writing a magazine article.

Kind of reminds me of an old Mathew McConaughey movie...


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

travelingrae said:


> That's an interesting theory and I bet you're onto something.
> 
> With Mexico, I never had the culture shock and adjustment I was expecting to have. I know a lot of that has to do with being able to speak Spanish, which means that things that seem convoluted to some folks don't do me because I understand the process and can usually reduce the number of steps, but I had a huge culture shock in Spain so it's definitely not just a linguistic thing.
> 
> ...


You are not going to like this - but - what exactly are your accomplishments in life ? I'm not passing judgement (I can't) - just trying to understand better your sentiments.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

Maybe I'm unknowingly plagiarizing something I read that sat in the back of my head until it popped out just now. I've never made any money from writing and don't expect to start, too much paperwork involved.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think it depends on the people who move and why they move. Many return pecause of family and health problems..many die here as well .
Here in the Chapala area I know many people who have been here for a long time and have no intention of going back.... For me going back would be going back to France where I have not lived for 50 years and that would put me over the hedge.. or staying here and see how thing go.. I cannot imagine moving back to the States where I do not have any roots or family although I lived there for 30 years.. so really after a while you really do not have any place to go back to if you do not have kids..
You cannot tell after 1 year what you will do.. going back after many years is difficult and you go through culture shock as you remember the place like it used to be but it has changed bid time and you were not part of that change.
My biggest culture shock was England followed by the US.. Mexico was home, I had zero culture shock here.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

citlali said:


> I think it depends on the people who move and why they move. Many return pecause of family and health problems..many die here as well .
> Here in the Chapala area I know many people who have been here for a long time and have no intention of going back.... For me going back would be going back to France where I have not lived for 50 years and that would put me over the hedge.. or staying here and see how thing go.. I cannot imagine moving back to the States where I do not have any roots or family although I lived there for 30 years.. so really after a while you really do not have any place to go back to if you do not have kids..
> You cannot tell after 1 year what you will do.. going back after many years is difficult and you go through culture shock as you remember the place like it used to be but it has changed bid time and you were not part of that change.
> My biggest culture shock was England followed by the US.. Mexico was home, I had zero culture shock here.


When the only reason you return 'home' is for food you like and shopping - does that tell you something ?


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

going back for family - a good point. I left that one out.


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## travelingrae (Dec 9, 2016)

horseshoe846 said:


> You are not going to like this - but - what exactly are your accomplishments in life ? I'm not passing judgement (I can't) - just trying to understand better your sentiments.


What do my accomplishments in life have to do with my feelings about how long I think I'll be in Mexico? 

And how do you define "accomplishments"? Because if building the life of my dreams fits the definition, then that's one of them.


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## Me Linda (Jan 26, 2017)

It reminds me of a movie too . The seven year itch. It's the little things that just keep getting more and more annoying. Actually divorce statistics back this up .


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I see many expats with one foot in the US and one foot in Mexico, they never really adjust and keep going back for stuff , favorite food, medical family and so on, I bet the large part of the people who go back are from that group. Many of them live in a expat-bubble and if things starts annoying them ..it grows and grows.. the grass is always greener on the other side and after a while people go back , they just never really adjusted or never planned to stay forever...That is the way it goes people come and people go..


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## travelingrae (Dec 9, 2016)

citlali said:


> I see many expats with one foot in the US and one foot in Mexico,


For me, the break with Canada is definite, but on advice from a tax accountant, I'm keeping my property and bank accounts in Canada, at least for the time being. I've always felt like I was living between two worlds because of the vast gulf between Quebec, where I lived for 25 years years, and the rest of Canada, where I lived in several provinces and the Yukon territory before settling in Saskatchewan, so to me being in Mexico is the same thing. I accept that I'll always have one foot back north, hence why I think of myself as an expat and not an immigrant.

But I'm committed to being here, making do with what I find here, and hoping family and friends will take my invitation to come visit so I don't have to go back north too often. I've travelled and/or lived all over all ten provinces and two of the three territories (plus 45 of the US states, including Alaska). So I'd really rather focus my travel and vacation funds to exploring my adopted home of Mexico.


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## dwwhiteside (Apr 17, 2013)

I have been living in Mexico since 2012 and, even though I have not yet hit the six year mark, I definitely do not see myself moving back to the U.S. To replicate in the U.S. the lifestyle I have here in Mexico, I would need four or five times the income I can expect when I retire. There is just no rational reason I can fathom that would compel me to move back to the U.S. 

Of course, if you had asked me six years ago if I would ever move to Mexico permanently I most likely would have scoffed at the idea. So, you never really know what you're going to do (or not do) until you do it (or don't).


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Currently we are living up in the mountains at 5800 ft. At some point, depending, we think we would like sell our house and relocate perhaps to Cancun - to a condo. If something were to happen to my wife - I might consider relocating to St Croix USVI (which is where we married and IS a US territory).

But I don't see us ever moving back to mainland US.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

In August, my husband and I will have been here for 13 years, settled into activities we enjoy and made good friends. Due to hearing loss, my Spanish conversational skills are very limited, but am getting by with "Spanglish" and am doing okay with reading.

When we first moved, we decided to adapt to those things which were different, so we haven't felt the need to go on shopping expeditions to the States. Our adult children know they need to come visit here if they expect to see us, so they do fly down and they have a fine time. They're always surprised at how different Mexico is from their expections; in a good way.
We lined up the health care, the lawyer, the "facilitator", the transportation when needed, and what began as a bumpy road is smooth enough.
We've only traveled back to the U.S. once: for a family funeral. Stayed four days and were eager to be "home" again, in Mexico.


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## MaryQuilter (Jun 15, 2017)

This thread was a good read. In considering our move we wanted to find out why people who have moved to Mexico then move back.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

You just do not know until you go through being an expat if you will be good at it or not..other people´s experiences mean nothing, they are not you and everyone is different, things will bug you that do not bug other people and then it is all about how you react to your missing your friends, family, home.. etc..
Good luck and have fun finding out.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

I think more and more expats are getting out because of crime - from our area anyway. Although expats themselves are not the direct target, there are a very high number of kidnappings and murders. My wife and I are not going anywhere - but I read an article this week that the expat community in our area is down substantially from what it once was. 

Used to be I thought you would be immune to crime if you stayed out of bad areas and didn't go out late at night. Now, every week I read a police report with a story like - 3 armed gunmen entered restaurant X at 2:30PM and robbed the clients of their wallets and phones. They left in the two cars they stole. There are definitely a 'rash' of people being robbed after withdrawing money at a bank.


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## MaryQuilter (Jun 15, 2017)

Horseshoe - what area are you in?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

horseshoe846 said:


> I think more and more expats are getting out because of crime - from our area anyway. Although expats themselves are not the direct target, there are a very high number of kidnappings and murders. My wife and I are not going anywhere - but I read an article this week that the expat community in our area is down substantially from what it once was.
> 
> Used to be I thought you would be immune to crime if you stayed out of bad areas and didn't go out late at night. Now, every week I read a police report with a story like - 3 armed gunmen entered restaurant X at 2:30PM and robbed the clients of their wallets and phones. They left in the two cars they stole. There are definitely a 'rash' of people being robbed after withdrawing money at a bank.


I have read these news stories too, but don't know anyone who's been affected by this criminal activity. I wonder if there has really been an increase in crime or if it's just being reported more.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

Cancun just surpassed 2016's full-year total for homicides less than half way through the year. I assume they can track that pretty consistently, what with having bodies with bullet holes to dispose of and all.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

eastwind said:


> Cancun just surpassed 2016's full-year total for homicides less than half way through the year. I assume they can track that pretty consistently, what with having bodies with bullet holes to dispose of and all.


Awful! To what do the authorities attribute this horrific rise in homicides? Who is doing the killing? Who is getting killed?


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Here - the governor has 'vowed' to reduce crime. So - they have made it a requirement that there be 'clear evidence' (such as a witness) before a killing can be labeled a homicide. As was pointed out - most organized-crime killings seem to lack witnesses...


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

I moved into a nice large house my Ex-wife and I owned for 32 years in Mexicali 11 years ago. I bought her 1/2 when we sold our house in San Diego after the divorce. I was there on weekends, Fri. evening to Mon. mornings and vacations for almost 3 years. At that time I thought I would be there for a long time and had bought very nice furnishing, added a 15 x 16 ft covered patio out back, etc.

After being retired early I lived there but meet my current Mexican National wife then and traveled to San Luis Potosi up to 7 times a year and she came to Mexicali/San Diego up to 5 times a year. It became clear when we were engaged I would be living with her in San Luis Potosi, a nice place with a better climate that Mexicali.

Since 7 years of marriage I have been here most of the first 2 years of marriage and 5 years full time.

I never think about returnng to either Canada where I lived my first 28 years or San Diego where I lived full time for about 33 years and haven´t for about 10 or so years.

Also I know my wife wouldn´t allow me to go anywhere. This alone keeps me from ever thinking about moving back NOB.

Also my lifestyle here is much above what it would be if I was still in San Diego as a retiree in so many ways it would be a letdown to return.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

citlali said:


> You just do not know until you go through being an expat if you will be good at it or not..other people´s experiences mean nothing, they are not you and everyone is different, things will bug you that do not bug other people and then it is all about how you react to your missing your friends, family, home.. etc..
> Good luck and have fun finding out.


I think other people's experiences mean _something_. Not everything, but something. I agree with the adage - 'Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.'

An another thread, same subject as here, someone used the word, _adaptability_. Good word. It's a big change.

At the very least, those not yet in Mexico can increase their awareness of what they are walking into.


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## eastwind (Jun 18, 2016)

They've only arrested 2 people in connection with the 62 homicides so far, so I guess if they were honest they'd have to say they don't know. They usually just blame "criminals", which is by definition. 

Why does it matter who is getting killed?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

eastwind said:


> Why does it matter who is getting killed?



I guess it does not matter until you are the one who gets killed...


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

eastwind said:


> Why does it matter who is getting killed?


I'm going to take a guess that almost all - or maybe even all - of those 62 were involved in some way in the drug trade. If that is indeed the case, those of us who don't meddle in such things can rest just a little easier. That's why it matters to me.
I understand that sometimes innocent bystanders can become collateral damage but I still would like to know just who is getting killed. 

I still say that my concern for Mexico is not the cartels; they are pretty focused in their nefarious activities. I'm more worried about the unemployed ex-cartel goons. They aren't nearly as smart or organized so they tend to be more indiscriminate in their dirty work.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

circle110 said:


> I'm going to take a guess that almost all - or maybe even all - of those 62 were involved in some way in the drug trade. If that is indeed the case, those of us who don't meddle in such things can rest just a little easier. That's why it matters to me.
> I understand that sometimes innocent bystanders can become collateral damage but I still would like to know just who is getting killed.
> 
> I still say that my concern for Mexico is not the cartels; they are pretty focused in their nefarious activities. I'm more worried about the unemployed ex-cartel goons. They aren't nearly as smart or organized so they tend to be more indiscriminate in their dirty work.


I disagree. There are a lot of robberies on the buses that workers take in the early morning hours. When people resist - they are sometimes shot. Within the last month we had a septic system worked on. When the jefe could't drive his crew to our house they refused to take the bus. Those robberies / shootings have nothing to do with drugs cartels.

I do agree with you that there is a lower class of individual running the cartels. 

I worry some about the class of people who are being thrown out of the US at the moment - some of them anyway. I hope that the gang members are transferred in such a way that they don't simply reenter the general Mexican population. Funny how you don't hear much about that anymore.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

horseshoe846 said:


> I disagree. There are a lot of robberies on the buses that workers take in the early morning hours. When people resist - they are sometimes shot. Within the last month we had a septic system worked on. When the jefe could't drive his crew to our house they refused to take the bus. Those robberies / shootings have nothing to do with drugs cartels.


Ah, but this just makes my point that it is indeed important to know who is being killed. In this specific case, knowing these facts would indicate that early morning bus trips are dangerous in your area.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

bus trips are becoming dangerous at all hours, early in the morning , 10 pclock on the morning , 10 oclock at night, it does not seem to make a whole lot of difference. Just heard a man in a restaurant telling his companions how he was attacked at gun point going through Sinaloa.. He was handcuffed, the thieves discussed shooting him and then decided agains. He had a hood over his head and one of the thieves took pity and sneaked one credit car back in his pocket but he lost his car and all his belonging, he was moving down to Chapala..
I really have never heard so many stories of car and buses being attacked as I have this year.. it goes on and on.. I know Sinaloa is a dangerous state but there are lots of those...

We tend to assume we are safe because we are not involved with trucks but I would not be so sure anymore..

I think there is little law enforcement and that there is a whole lot of thieves and criminals who have nothing to do with the cartels and are even more dangerous..
In Chiapas when thieves are caught stealing they bettr hope the police come to the rescue because there is a whole lot of lynching.. What is amazing to me is that knowing that people still do it.
Last week in San Cristobal de las Casas 2 women and a man were caught steling at the municipal market, the women escaped but the man was beaten to a pulp and was saved by the police.. He was from Tuxtla and had to know what happened to thieves at the market and he still did it.. it is amazing.. He was lucky thre was no gazoline handy that day..


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

This thread is beginning to depress me. It seems that things have gotten substantially worse in the last 6 months. It sounds like my prediction is coming true quicker than I expected.

The critical agenda becomes: what can be done about this new wave of violence? Getting rid of the cartels is not going to help; in fact it would make things worse. More police? Unfortunately, the corruption there may be too deeply ingrained already. Calderón's use of the army was not a good thing in any way either. I wish I knew.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

citlali said:


> Just heard a man in a restaurant telling his companions how he was attacked at gun point going through Sinaloa.. He was handcuffed, the thieves discussed shooting him and then decided agains.


Hmmm. My intended driving route for this Fall includes driving through Sinaloa.

Is there a safer route to drive to Guadalajara? I am intending to enter Mexico at Nogales (directly south of Tucson), and get to the coast via Hermosilla. I was under the impression the coastal area was safer for highway driving than the Mexican states directly below New Mexico and Texas.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

UrbanMan said:


> Hmmm. My intended driving route for this Fall includes driving through Sinaloa.
> 
> Is there a safer route to drive to Guadalajara? I am intending to enter Mexico at Nogales (directly south of Tucson), and get to the coast via Hermosilla. I was under the impression the coastal area was safer for highway driving than the Mexican states directly below New Mexico and Texas.


I drove through there last year. I left Los Angeles, crossed at Mexicali, and came down the coast to Guadalajara. I had no problems. Maybe I was just lucky, but I suspect a better explanation is that the man Citlali mentioned was just unlucky.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

TundraGreen said:


> I drove through there last year. I left Los Angeles, crossed at Mexicali, and came down the coast to Guadalajara. I had no problems. Maybe I was just lucky, but I suspect a better explanation is that the man Citlali mentioned was just unlucky.


Re: the man in Citali, we have something overheard in a restaurant. People say lots of things in restaurants. Especially if alcohol is involved, it can creep into I-walked-uphill-both-ways-ten-miles-each-way-to-school-every-day territory.

Now, assuming the robbery happened somewhat as described ... was he driving after dark? Did he pull into an isolated gas station where there were no other customers? Did he park on the wrong street? Did he advertise that he was carrying cash? Now, I don't know the guy, or the circumstances, just saying there could be some culpability on his part.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

No The man was not drunk and he was attacked, his wife said the same exact thing to a friend of mine, They were pretty taumatized and will not drive that road any longer and I know a few more people who were robbed of their cars and the truckers and bus drivers are also saying the same thing.. This year has seen an increase of attacks on roads.. It does not mean everyone driving once in a great while is going to be attacked but if you are on te roads a lot your chances increase.

The thieves fake accidents and block the road and hold you at gun point...that is as several of the roberies I have heard about happened.
Also in Puebla state , a trucker told me not to stop for the municiapal police as thieves have their cars and uniforms.. who knows iit could be rogue cops..

I drive a lot and I drive in deserted areas and you guys can thing it is an overblown subject ut I am very aware of the problem. A friend of mine who goes back and forth to Chiapas from Guadalajara with a van was robbed last october by cops. This time they accused him of transporting drugs. frisked him search the van, did not find drugs but found the dollars he was taking to do his purchases in Guatemala and took that. He arrived at my house still shaking from that episode. I volonteered to report it to the governor´s office and he begged me not too as he goes down several times a year and do not want those cops to single him out.
I did tell people in the office that the cops were robbing tourists and I also told the director of tourism who is a friend.. 
Judging by the shooting of the buse last week, nothing much is changing iTabasco, Vera Cruz. Chiapas area where my frind was robbed.

Urban man ,I have lived here for 17 years and I live in Jalisco and Chiapas and travel a lot between those points , when I say there are more problems now, I have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about.
Tundragreen always tell us , he does not have a car so obviously he does not drive a whole lot , so he went through a place and came out ok, that does not mean anything as far as the whole picture is concernec. 
Chicois drives a lot and he/she says that Mexico is not as saf as it was and that is the first time I have seen that in writing from this poster who has been posting for several years.
I help artisans go to ferias so in doing so I deal with a lot of truck drivers and bus drivers to arrange trips and when those guys are warning me, I do not put my head in the sand I listen and do not try to figure out if this guy was drunk..which he was not , or if it happen at night or whatever. blaming the victims is easy....but frankly a tourist being held at gun point and robbed in the state of Sinaloa is not such an unusual event.

I have a group that went to CUidad Juares and then crosses at a small plce to go to Silver City this week-end and should be home today..these people go all over Mexico and into the US they are on the road a lot, actually one of the woman was on the bus that was attacked last week.. they tell me it is not safe as well.


Believe whatever you want, I know that before leaving for another trip south , I take precautions, hide money, think of what can happen and try to figure out what I would do in that kind of situation.. I have to go via the same route as that bus or via the Isthmus in Oaxaca whre there are plenty of problems as well..


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## Me Linda (Jan 26, 2017)

My daughter had a car slam on its breaks in front of her, she could not stop. She hit the car in front of her. The driver did it on purpose for the insurance. My daughter limped the car to a convenience store to sit and call for help. Two men came out of the store one reached thru the window and tried to drag her out. The man behind him had a knife. The car was running and she is 6 feet tall , she hit the gas and dragged the man down the street until he let go. This was in the middle of the day. She swore she would never drive down south again. Down south being the Miami Pompanos beach area. Get over it , its bad everywhere.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Maybe your daughter should not tailgate.. That would be the first lesson I would get from that one. If you cannot stop if the car in front of yo does you are at fault no matter what.. at least in Mexico.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

Me Linda said:


> My daughter had a car slam on its breaks in front of her, she could not stop. She hit the car in front of her. The driver did it on purpose for the insurance. My daughter limped the car to a convenience store to sit and call for help. Two men came out of the store one reached thru the window and tried to drag her out. The man behind him had a knife. The car was running and she is 6 feet tall , she hit the gas and dragged the man down the street until he let go. This was in the middle of the day. She swore she would never drive down south again. Down south being the Miami Pompanos beach area. Get over it , its bad everywhere.


We are very familiar with the Pompano Beach area, having lived in that area for something like 30 years. We were never the victims of ANY crime - nor do we know anyone who was.

There are areas of Pompano Beach where certainly a woman should not venture alone . In fact I suspect most those who do are a) looking to sell themselves or b) looking for drugs. Now I'm not saying that is the case with your daughter. Perhaps she wasn't aware of the risks she was putting herself in.

I'm reminded of one night, years ago, when my wife and I drove down I95 for an event in Miami. We got off at the wrong exit and found ourselves in the middle of Overtown. This was at a time where there was a lot of racial tension. Fortunately for us a squad car noticed us, pulled us over, scolded us and then insisted that we follow him back onto I95.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> No The man was not drunk and he was attacked, his wife said the same exact thing to a friend of mine, They were pretty taumatized and will not drive that road any longer and I know a few more people who were robbed of their cars and the truckers and bus drivers are also saying the same thing.. This year has seen an increase of attacks on roads.. It does not mean everyone driving once in a great while is going to be attacked but if you are on te roads a lot your chances increase.
> 
> The thieves fake accidents and block the road and hold you at gun point...that is as several of the roberies I have heard about happened.
> Also in Puebla state , a trucker told me not to stop for the municiapal police as thieves have their cars and uniforms.. who knows iit could be rogue cops..
> ...


Cuídate mucho, citlali!


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