# Violent robbery alert!



## The Skipper

A friend and two of his neighbours, who all live in an isolated rural area of inland North Alicante, were robbed last night by four men wearing black balaclavas and carrying knives. My friend was watching TV and they let themselves into his house through the unlocked front door and demanded money and anything gold. They hit him even though he co-operated and handed them everything he had of value. The nearest neighbour was jumped upon by the thieves when he went to an outside kitchen to get some beer and he and his wife were beaten when they at first resisted the demands of the thieves. The third neighbour had just opened his front door to take his dog for a walk when the men burst into the house. He offered resistance and was badly beaten, suffering cracked ribs. The men are believed to be in their 20s and had eastern European accents. The Guardia are, of course, on the case but I thought it was worth posting this warning so that everyone – especially those living in remote, rural locations – is aware of the need to take extra precautions and to report anything suspicious.


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## Pesky Wesky

The Skipper said:


> A friend and two of his neighbours, who all live in an isolated rural area of inland North Alicante, were robbed last night by four men wearing black balaclavas and carrying knives. My friend was watching TV and they let themselves into his house through the unlocked front door and demanded money and anything gold. They hit him even though he co-operated and handed them everything he had of value. The nearest neighbour was jumped upon by the thieves when he went to an outside kitchen to get some beer and he and his wife were beaten when they at first resisted the demands of the thieves. The third neighbour had just opened his front door to take his dog for a walk when the men burst into the house. He offered resistance and was badly beaten, suffering cracked ribs. The men are believed to be in their 20s and had eastern European accents. The Guardia are, of course, on the case but I thought it was worth posting this warning so that everyone – especially those living in remote, rural locations – is aware of the need to take extra precautions and to report anything suspicious.


How scary!
I think you were wise to post this. It's always a good idea to be alert and well warned against possible problems.


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## Pazcat

Is this in Alcoy?


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## Lynn R

How awful. I hope those responsible are caught very soon.


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## xabiaxica

that's dreadful - the robbers were clearly on a mission 

I see you're in Alcoy - was it anywhere near you?


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## The Skipper

xabiachica said:


> that's dreadful - the robbers were clearly on a mission
> 
> I see you're in Alcoy - was it anywhere near you?


Yes, I don´t want to give the exact location but within 15 minutes by car from Alcoy.


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## Madliz

Wherever I have lived, I have never left external doors unlocked. I remember in the 1970s, in the UK, my mother had her handbag snatched from just inside the unlocked kitchen door and that lesson stayed with me.

Thanks for posting the warning. How terrifying.


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## deefitz

Your friend may have been wise to lock the doors. He might have got away with it had he not needed to open his door for anything - unlike his very unlucky neighbours. 

As a matter of interest, were the neighbours ex-pats or locals? Is this a deliberate targeting of ex-pats?


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## rufus1

Find myself thinking is this why spanish properties have bars on the windows


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## Pesky Wesky

rufus1 said:


> Find myself thinking is this why spanish properties have bars on the windows


Of course it is!
However, this does depend a lot on where you live. Some people have them on because the area has been hit by burglaries and others because they don't live there full time and think they might be more vunerable to break ins.
I live on an ungated urbanización of about a 100 houses and I think there may 3 houses that have bars on the windows or doors. These were houses that used to be used for the weekends, owned by people living in Madrid. As communications improved people were able to live in them full time and a lot of people took the bars off when they became year round houses. The ones that have them on still are probably only used in the summer. Our house never had bars on and the majority of properties in Spain do not.
I think it's a bit of a domino effect situation. If most of the people around you have bars I suppose you'd be wise to put them on too as your house becomes the easier one to get into. On the other hand, if few people around you have bars and you put them on it looks like your s is the property that stands empty for much of the time so that's where the easy pickings are.
You can't win either way and you can be sure that if they want to get in, they will!


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## The Skipper

deefitz said:


> Your friend may have been wise to lock the doors. He might have got away with it had he not needed to open his door for anything - unlike his very unlucky neighbours.
> 
> As a matter of interest, were the neighbours ex-pats or locals? Is this a deliberate targeting of ex-pats?


The first house targeted was British and the second was Belgian. My friend is English. This is, however, not an ex-pat area and I think it is probably just a coincidence. We are waiting to hear if other houses were also targeted and it could be that there were some Spanish victims. The first neighbours were robbed at 7pm and left tied up with all phones smashed. My friend was robbed at 10pm and the Belgian neighbours shortly before, so it is likely there were other homes in between.


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## Gazeebo

So frightening for you all. Is there any chance of them getting caught? How do Spanish police view this sort of crime? Maybe they will pick on someone who will put a stop to them - with any luck, and they get all they deserve.
The property we rent has bars on the old part and none on the new part. We always lock gates and doors in Spain as we don't know the area, unlike in England where we used to leave them unlocked when we were in the house. Maybe if we go back to England, we will start to lock-up, as it will be a habit we have got into.
Anyway, I do hope your neighbours are recovering.


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## baldilocks

Very few houses around here don't have bars on the ground floor, but I hear of very little crime hereabouts so perhaps it has been traditional, however there are very few modern houses so maybe it is a case that if they had bars up, they have stayed there.


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## gus-lopez

baldilocks said:


> Very few houses around here don't have bars on the ground floor, but I hear of very little crime hereabouts so perhaps it has been traditional, however there are very few modern houses so maybe it is a case that if they had bars up, they have stayed there.


Same here . It is odd to see one without rejas.


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## Lynn R

gus-lopez said:


> Same here . It is odd to see one without rejas.


It is a condition of our home insurance policy that we have rejas on all windows within 3m of the ground, and I think this is pretty standard. Perhaps if houses have more modern windows with security shutters they are acceptable instead. 

Personally I prefer the look of rejas, especially if they are reasonably decorative (ours are the type with scrolls and curlicues) to the shutters pulled down.


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## Lolito

I think the bars in Spain (windows and doors bars!) are there for traditions more than security, I am only guessing, I grew up accustomed to them, and when I was little we used to sleep with doors and windows opened, as nothing would happen. My house now got bars, and I quite like them, they are decorative and we hung pots, etc. Although it is also a bit scary if there is a fire or something and you need to get out of the window, lol!


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> It is a condition of our home insurance policy that we have rejas on all windows within 3m of the ground, and I think this is pretty standard. Perhaps if houses have more modern windows with security shutters they are acceptable instead.
> 
> Personally I prefer the look of rejas, especially if they are reasonably decorative (ours are the type with scrolls and curlicues) to the shutters pulled down.


I'll have to look at our insurance policy then!
What are security shutters exactly? What do they look like?


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## The Skipper

Lynn R said:


> It is a condition of our home insurance policy that we have rejas on all windows within 3m of the ground, and I think this is pretty standard. Perhaps if houses have more modern windows with security shutters they are acceptable instead.
> 
> Personally I prefer the look of rejas, especially if they are reasonably decorative (ours are the type with scrolls and curlicues) to the shutters pulled down.


We do not have any rejas and our insurance company is aware of this. We were, however, declined cover by another company because of the absence of rejas. They are, in my opinion, rather ugly and I would feel as though I was in prison if I had them! I know of several houses with rejas near to us that have been burgled. One had a rope tied around the rejas and attached to a car, which pulled them out of the wall. In another house an angle grinder cut through the bars like a hot knife through butter! If the thieving barlambs want to get into your house rejas aren´t going to stop them!


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## The Skipper

rufus1 said:


> Find myself thinking is this why spanish properties have bars on the windows


Bars would not have helped my friend or his neighbours! The thieves walked into my friend´s house while he was watching TV (having crossed open land between his house and that of one of the neighbours who was also robbed). Both of the neighbours were attacked outside of their houses (one while going to an outside kitchen to get some beer and the other as he was leaving the house to take his dog for a walk).


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## Lynn R

The Skipper said:


> We do not have any rejas and our insurance company is aware of this. We were, however, declined cover by another company because of the absence of rejas. They are, in my opinion, rather ugly and I would feel as though I was in prison if I had them! I know of several houses with rejas near to us that have been burgled. One had a rope tied around the rejas and attached to a car, which pulled them out of the wall. In another house an angle grinder cut through the bars like a hot knife through butter! If the thieving barlambs want to get into your house rejas aren´t going to stop them!


Oh yes, I quite agree about the fact that they're not fully effective. I've heard of instances such as you describe myself. One English guy who owned a property not far away and rarely visited it arrived to find the house had been broken into, and on closer inspection he found the rejas had been cut through and black insulation tape wrapped round them so it wasn't noticeable on first glance. The thieves must have been coming and going for days helping themseves then putting the bars back in place.

Of course no security measures, be they locked doors, alarms, dogs, whatever are going to be a 100% deterrent if the thieves are determined enough.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'll have to look at our insurance policy then!
> What are security shutters exactly? What do they look like?


I was thinking of this kind of thing.

Persianas de seguridad autoblocantes | precios


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Oh yes, I quite agree about the fact that they're not fully effective. I've heard of instances such as you describe myself. One English guy who owned a property not far away and rarely visited it arrived to find the house had been broken into, and on closer inspection he found the rejas had been cut through and black insulation tape wrapped round them so it wasn't noticeable on first glance. The thieves must have been coming and going for days helping themseves then putting the bars back in place.
> 
> Of course no security measures, be they locked doors, alarms, dogs, whatever are going to be a 100% deterrent if the thieves are determined enough.


The last sentence is very true.
We have rejas, persianas and an alarm system but our best protection are the two large dogs.
We were burgled whilst taking the dog out - we had only one then - and the thieves had obviously been watching and noting our habits. We used to take the dog out at the same time each day. But then I left the shutters up and the alarm off....they forced a door.
But when we returned earlier than usual and surprised them they fled and vaulted a 2 m wall with the dog in pursuit.
Our neighbour who rarely walks his dog has never been burgled.
Dogs are a good deterrent imo.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> The last sentence is very true.
> We have rejas, persianas and an alarm system but our best protection are the two large dogs.
> We were burgled whilst taking the dog out - we had only one then - and the thieves had obviously been watching and noting our habits. We used to take the dog out at the same time each day. But then I left the shutters up and the alarm off....they forced a door.
> But when we returned earlier than usual and surprised them they fled and vaulted a 2 m wall with the dog in pursuit.
> Our neighbour who rarely walks his dog has never been burgled.
> Dogs are a good deterrent imo.


And you've never heard of thieves poisoning, shooting or clubbing dogs to death? Because I have. If they are ruthless enough and know from observation there is a dog on the premises they will come equipped. The noise a dog makes would probably be a deterrent in a populated area - if neighbours would take any notice of it. In an isolated area, just as with an alarm the thieves could see off a dog before anybody had the chance to get there and see what was going on. 

Se busca a los ladrones que mataron a un perro con un arpón para poder robar en una casa | Schnauzi.com

If I had an alarm (even in a town) it would take the Policia Nacional (who are the ones who deal with burglaries, not the Policia Local) at least 20 minutes to get here. Thieves could be in and out easily within that time, although alarms are easy to disarm anyway - appparently.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I was thinking of this kind of thing.
> 
> Persianas de seguridad autoblocantes | precios


Thanks!
I watched the video. Those are great blinds, aren't they?

I asked about the blinds because I know for a fact that our blinds (the usual ones) are not any good against a thief who comes a little bit prepared. Someone from the urba was burgled and they held her blind up with a garden chair. (They then proceeded to steal the most bizarre things like socks... Go figure) In our case I really don't think they'd bother because they'd have to go through other people's gardens to get to our back garden and in the front we've got a 2 metre hedge /gate, but I know that if they want to they'll get in.
I will check on the blind thing with the insurance though for future reference, not for this house.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks!
> I watched the video. Those are great blinds, aren't they?
> 
> I asked about the blinds because I know for a fact that our blinds (the usual ones) are not any good against a thief who comes a little bit prepared. Someone from the urba was burgled and they held her blind up with a garden chair. (They then proceeded to steal the most bizarre things like socks... Go figure) In our case I really don't think they'd bother because they'd have to go through other people's gardens to get to our back garden and in the front we've got a 2 metre hedge /gate, but I know that if they want to they'll get in.
> I will check on the blind thing with the insurance though for future reference, not for this house.


It amazes me why thieves sometimes steal what they do. When we were burgled about 6 years ago nothing of any great value was taken - but they did take part used bottles of aftershave, cheap bazaar shop sunglasses and a wine rack with 14 bottles of cheap plonk in it. Because of the latter, we knew the thieves had to be local as you can't drive a car up our street and it's impossible to carry something like that very far. And that was in broad daylight, we were only out between noon and 2pm. Nobody saw or heard a thing - allegedly.


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## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> Policia Nacional (who are the ones who deal with burglaries, not the Policia Local)


I think it might be the Guardia Civil. The Policia Nacional are the ones who deal with immigration matters.

Mrypg - a dog is only a good deterrent if it is at home - if the owners take it off the premises with the excuse they are take it for a walk...


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> I think it might be the Guardia Civil. The Policia Nacional are the ones who deal with immigration matters.
> 
> Mrypg - a dog is only a good deterrent if it is at home - if the owners take it off the premises with the excuse they are take it for a walk...


It might be the GC in the campo, but in urban areas I assure you it is the Policia Nacional who deal with burglaries. That's who dealt with mine and a number of others committed in a veritable spate around the same time (some Spanish owned houses and some foreign owned) and also a later one involving a house which we were holding the keys for for an absentee owner.
http://www.policia.es/denunweb/den_tel_es.html


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## tarot650

Dogs,alarms systems are deterents.As I said in a previous post some time back there was this right know it all person who lived in Calahonda and he used to love bragging about his two dogs and sadly one night when he went home somebody had shot them with a crossbow.I know when we first came here years ago some of the weapons openly sold in the shops,just unbelievable.Also a good few years back there was a spate of robberies on the coast and although the properties had rejas on the windows the theives were using car jacks to snap the bars but sadly it's not just here it can happen anywhere.


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## Lolito

The video of the blinds is really odd, the man could at least pretend he is actually trying to get inside, i know the windows are expensive but if the company wants to sell, they have to make sure they convince people, i never laughed so much.... it is just ridiculous, having the persiana box outside rather than inside it not good either. uhm... i deffo wouldnt buy persianans from seeing that video!


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## The Skipper

mrypg9 said:


> The last sentence is very true.
> We have rejas, persianas and an alarm system but our best protection are the two large dogs.
> We were burgled whilst taking the dog out - we had only one then - and the thieves had obviously been watching and noting our habits. We used to take the dog out at the same time each day. But then I left the shutters up and the alarm off....they forced a door.
> But when we returned earlier than usual and surprised them they fled and vaulted a 2 m wall with the dog in pursuit.
> Our neighbour who rarely walks his dog has never been burgled.
> Dogs are a good deterrent imo.


Lynn is quite right, unfortunately, about the dogs. And let me tell you about my experience with alarms. I paid a fortune to have a monitored alarm system installed in my remote cottage in Cornwall after being burgled twice in one year. The alarm went off one day while I was doing some gardening at my mother´s house about five miles away. The monitoring company called me and the police. I rushed home to find that it was a false alarm, often caused by an insect walking across a sensor. I was just locking up to return to my mother´s house when a police car pulled up. I walked up to the police car, dressed in my scruffy gardening clothes, and told the driver (a female who looked about 12 years old!) that it was a false alarm. “OK, fine,” she said, and drove away, not even bothering to ask who I was! Would the Spanish police be any better I wonder?


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> Mrypg - a dog is only a good deterrent if it is at home - if the owners take it off the premises with the excuse they are take it for a walk...


They don't always need to take it off the premises, either. My brother's wife shut their two border collies (who were champion barkers) in the utility room one morning whilst she went to the shops with their young son in his pram - and that's where they stayed whilst the house was burgled, although she was out less than an hour. No doubt the dogs made a lot of noise but as the neighbours were all out at work, what did the burglars care?


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I think it might be the Guardia Civil. The Policia Nacional are the ones who deal with immigration matters.
> 
> Mrypg - a dog is only a good deterrent if it is at home - if the owners take it off the premises with the excuse they are take it for a walk...


Excuse???!!! Sometimes, in summer, I try in vain to think up excuses for not taking the dogs out at 7.a.m. before it's too hot.

A burglar would have to shoot Our Little Azor...he eats only what we give him, will not eat any 'strange' food or food from strangers and it would be hard although not impossible to get near enough to club him.
But I doubt that armed robbers would bother robbing our neighbourhood.
You never know, though..


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> They don't always need to take it off the premises, either. My brother's wife shut their two border collies (who were champion barkers) in the utility room one morning whilst she went to the shops with their young son in his pram - and that's where they stayed whilst the house was burgled, although she was out less than an hour. No doubt the dogs made a lot of noise but as the neighbours were all out at work, what did the burglars care?


Both of ours roam the house when we're out. Azor would definitely inflict damage on unwelcome intruders. Xena barks but has tiny teeth, worn by having so many litters but people who don't know dog breeds think she's a pit bull and she certainly appears to be fierce.
Alarms aren't much use, really. By the time the police or security guys arrive the intruders would be long gone, as we found out when our business premises were broken into.


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> I think it might be the Guardia Civil. The Policia Nacional are the ones who deal with immigration matters.
> 
> Mrypg - a dog is only a good deterrent if it is at home - if the owners take it off the premises with the excuse they are take it for a walk...


it's the Policia Nacional who go out to check kids' addresses for the padrón, free school meals & free school bus here 

people have been known to put their kids on the padrón at auntie's house to access the free bus & meals


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Alarms aren't much use, really. By the time the police or security guys arrive the intruders would be long gone, as we found out when our business premises were broken into.


And that's not the only problem with them. I wouldn't waste the money.

Aseguran que es posible hackear y desactivar nuestra alarma de casa


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> And that's not the only problem with them. I wouldn't waste the money.
> 
> Aseguran que es posible hackear y desactivar nuestra alarma de casa


We had to have some kind of alarm system at our business premises as we had expensive equipment and MOT certificates in the safe. The insurance company required it.
But yes, I agree, alarms don't prevent break- ins. The landlord installed and pays for our system, otherwise we wouldn't bother although it saved calling a locksmith when I lost ourdoor keys.
And although as you say dogs don't guarantee immunity and for all sourboy's lurid tales of crossbows, I feel safer with our dogs than I would without them and besides they are pets not weapons.
They may not be a 100% deterrent against burglars but they are against bag snatchers and muggers.


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## Pazcat

I think the level of violence in the OP and some of the others mentioned are surely special cases and to be honest there is probably very little one can do to safeguard against it.
I can't imagine that Spanish criminals are prone to more violent attacks than elsewhere, in general most are cowards and unless you are being specifically targeted they will always go for the easiest option available.

Having dogs, bars and alarms as a deterrent may not be wholly perfect but it probably does make a big difference if your neighbours don't have them.
Given the choice they will always take the easiest target.

When we brought the house and was in a transition period I brought a garden hose around which vanished the next day, I also noted other signs of people being on the property and things broken.
This stressed me out considerably but once it became clear the house was lived in the activity stopped.
An empty house is an easy target.


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## el romeral

The thread seems to have drifted onto robberies generally, in particular when the owners are out. The original post about robbery with violence happened with the owners inside, which of course is an altogether scarier prospect.

We have *touch wood* never had any such problems in the 16 years of living in a somewhat isolated house in the campo. I am not especially worried about anything happening but do take plenty of sensible precautions. 

Reading the first few posts makes me feel not quite so paranoid about, for example, always locking the doors when I am inside and setting the exterior perifery alarm to "chivato mode" so it bleeps in the house if something crosses the beams, also indicating where the breach was. At least it may give you enough of a head start on any potential burglers should they happen to scale the 2,5 metre barbed wire fences or not impale themselves trying to climb the 3 metre high spiked gates lol.


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## baldilocks

el romeral said:


> The thread seems to have drifted onto robberies generally, in particular when the owners are out. The original post about robbery with violence happened with the owners inside, which of course is an altogether scarier prospect.
> 
> We have *touch wood* never had any such problems in the 16 years of living in a somewhat isolated house in the campo. I am not especially worried about anything happening but do take plenty of sensible precautions.
> 
> Reading the first few posts makes me feel not quite so paranoid about, for example, always locking the doors when I am inside and setting the exterior perifery alarm to "chivato mode" so it bleeps in the house if something crosses the beams, also indicating where the breach was. At least it may give you enough of a head start on any potential burglers should they happen to scale the 2,5 metre barbed wire fences or not impale themselves trying to climb the 3 metre high spiked gates lol.


and I suppose that, once they have negotiated those and the moat with alligators, there is a doormat that says "Welcome" and, once inside the house, there is a plaque that says "Mi casa es tu casa."


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> and I suppose that, once they have negotiated those and the moat with alligators, there is a doormat that says "Welcome" and, once inside the house, there is a plaque that says "Mi casa es tu casa."


What I thought was - and people say they'd feel as though they were living in a prison if they had rejas on their windows!


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## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> What I thought was - and people say they'd feel as though they were living in a prison if they had rejas on their windows!


I did at first but, now, I don't even notice them.


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> I did at first but, now, I don't even notice them.


I can't even see the rejas from inside, except if we have the windows in the top half of the front door open, because we have persianas up between the rejas and the window panes anyway.


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## Pazcat

I have just seen this come up on facebook, does this sound familiar?
Happened last night apparently.
Not liking the fact we are in the middle of the two areas. I hope they can catch them.



> Three violent robberies took place in the town of Sax, between midnight and early Tuesday morning, the robbers, obtained an important booty in jewels and money after threatening, hitting and handcuffing their owners before fleeing the scene.
> 
> The three villas robbed, were on the same side and are situated in la Peña Rubia, in a remote area of cottages and farms located between the rural districts of La Parada and Las Cavas.
> 
> Criminals -are at least four- acted by hiding their faces with ski masks to avoid being identified and wore gloves to leave no trace. Furthermore, in all cases they used the same modus operandi. Once inside the houses, they intimidate their owners by death threats and beat them to force them to hand over all the money, jewels and valuables kept at home. But they also took with them all their mobile phones , so the home owners could not alert the Civil Guard or Local Police Sax, the robbers are presumed to have taken flight through the nearby motorway Alicante-Madrid.
> 
> Two victims were retired couples from northern Europe and in at least one case the thieves undertook to blows to one of the women, to force the husband to not resist and access their valuables. Once the robbers had completed the assault, they handcuffed and gagged victims, leaving them locked in a room of the house to guarantee the necessary time with which to escape.
> 
> Fortunately, none of the three robberies was it necessary to hospitalize the owners of the villas assaulted because the injuries were bruises, and were not serious. In any case all the victims remain traumatized by the experience. Especially a family of Germans who were woken up at four in the morning with the shouting thieves inside their bedroom room and putting a gun to the husband’s neck. In this case, the attackers managed to enter discreetly after forcing a window, but in another theft it is unknown how gained entry and surprised the residents as they slept.
> 
> The chalets which were robbed were near each other but do not have a luxurious appearance, so that the reasons which led the robbers to choose them as targets is unknown.The


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## Pesky Wesky

Pazcat said:


> I have just seen this come up on facebook, does this sound familiar?
> Happened last night apparently.
> Not liking the fact we are in the middle of the two areas. I hope they can catch them.


What a strange article. Sounds like a stilted translation.


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## Pazcat

It's a post from someone on facebook, first seen on a Hondon facebay page. I have no idea if it comes from an article or not.

Not sure what to make of it as it sounds very similar to the OP but supposedly happened in Sax on the 13/14th.


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## The Skipper

Pazcat said:


> I have just seen this come up on facebook, does this sound familiar?
> Happened last night apparently.
> Not liking the fact we are in the middle of the two areas. I hope they can catch them.


It does, indeed, sound familiar. Almost an identical MO to the cases outlined in my original post. Very worrying!


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## rufus1

are illegal firearms a big problem in spain?
Are spanish laws on defence in the home similar to recently amended UK laws
reasonable proportional use of force to defend life and property.


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## Elyles

Hombre, gun control is a very big issue in the US. The gun manufacturer lobbies pouring money into congress is a larger issue. When I first arrived here and volunteered helping teach English, one of the questions I was asked was "Do you own a gun like everyone else in the US?" My only response was NO! I agree, there are a lot of nut-cases that have been allowed to collect many guns and later kill many people with those same guns in the US. Myself, I have never felt the need to own one and have lived in some of the largest cities in the country. I guess this is because I never put myself in positions to need self protection. I worked as a psychologist for many years in jails, prisons, public and private centers and managed those centers. I worked with some pretty insane people. Those who had killed others, those who threatened others, those who threatened my life, etc. Was I ever afraid for my safety? The answer to that is, (only briefly when I worked with street gang members). Those kids, during the crack cocaine epidemic, had no value for human life and most knew at least a half a dozen friends who had been killed within the past year. My discovery on not displaying my fear gained me the respect of those who threatened me.

In living in Wyoming, in the mountains of the US, many people own guns for personal safety (although the most scary thing to be safe from there is an angry spouse), for hunting, (and gun safety classes are required to hunt but kids 10 years old can become certified), just because they are isolated on ranches, or just because they can! I knew police officers who owned personal armories but kept them in a safe. I also knew normal citizens who owned guns because so many others did. There is even a hunting holiday from school there for a few days in the Fall when entire families hunt elk, deer, moose, antelope, etc. But, on the other hand, many people there are responsible gun owners and assure that they are unusable or locked up. 

Unfortunately, anybody CAN buy a gun in the US, legally it illegally but it is mostly in the larger cities where most of the threats and murders happen. It just depends on where you are and what you are doing in those cities. Murders and gun threats in the small communities are normally druggies. 

It's a complicated issue. Sure, we need more control there due to the mass killings but it doesn't happen overnight. As soon as a politician tries to initiate gun control of some sort, the gun manufacturer lobbies pour money into advertising saying "The government wants to take your guns". Then gun sales rise. Or every time there is a violent killing that makes the news, gun sales rise. Folks, in the US it's a multi billion dollar business. Do home invasions happen? Yes but mostly in the cities. Is it scary to live in the US? Not really but the politicians might make it seem so. I do however feel safer here in Spain. I could go on and on for hours on this topic but would rather play computer games..


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## rufus1

That was very interesting and thankyou for sharing it.


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## mrypg9

rufus1 said:


> are illegal firearms a big problem in spain?
> Are spanish laws on defence in the home similar to recently amended UK laws
> reasonable proportional use of force to defend life and property.


What about crossbows? As allegedly used to kill dogs in Calahonda? Are weapons like that illegal?


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## Pesky Wesky

rufus1 said:


> are illegal firearms a big problem in spain?
> Are spanish laws on defence in the home similar to recently amended UK laws
> reasonable proportional use of force to defend life and property.


No they are not a big problem.
Here's a link (from an American site) I don't know if it's up to date or not
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/spain.php


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> No they are not a big problem.
> Here's a link (from an American site) I don't know if it's up to date or not
> Firearms-Control Legislation and Policy: Spain | Law Library of Congress


We often see people with guns and dogs on our way to the perrera and often hear gunshots when home - terrifies Azor,big softy.
Lots of people seem to carry knives too, presumably for hunting, fishing or whatever.
Haven't seen many harpoons, crossbows but have once seen someone with a catapult, not a home-made one either.


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## Pazcat

It reminds me a bit like Australia 20 or 30 years ago before our gun control laws came in although I would say in Spain guns & weapons are a lot more visible here.
So many houses we saw when visiting had guns proudly on display in the house or you noticed them in a shed somewhere.
Hunting is huge in some places and most of these houses are also adorned in animal heads and skins.

Strangely though people seem fairly responsible although I haven't really been here long enough to judge but I can't recall any mass shootings in the last 3 years.


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> No they are not a big problem.
> Here's a link (from an American site) I don't know if it's up to date or not
> Firearms-Control Legislation and Policy: Spain | Law Library of Congress


I haven't read many reports of them being used in crimes, but there seem to be more of them around in dodgy hands than you would think.

A few years ago we were watching the town fireworks on New Year's Eve on our roof terrace with some friends, when one of them said "that was a gunshot!". A man who lived up the street and round the corner (who was a well known drug dealer and currently detained at His Majesty's pleasure) had come out into the street with a pistol and was firing it into the air, laughing his head off and no doubt off his head on something. My OH has been shown photos on mobile of people "guarding" marijuana plantations out in the campo, armed with shotguns.

The only actual shooting incident I'm aware of in the 9 years I've lived here, though, was when the son of a local business owner, who had mental health issues, shot himself in the head with a gun his father had a licence to own. It was worrying that he was able to get access to it as if things had gone differently he could have gone out and shot someone else instead of himself.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I haven't read many reports of them being used in crimes, but there seem to be more of them around in dodgy hands than you would think.


I'm very willing to believe they are around, but I _thought_ the poster who asked the question was thinking about how often are they used in crime. I don't have figures, but I get the impression that gun crime is much less in evidence here than in both the US and the UK.
Here I _think_ that most guns are still in the hands of hunters and the occasional drug baron and not crazy, frightened teens or evil adult killers


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm very willing to believe they are around, but I _thought_ the poster who asked the question was thinking about how often are they used in crime. I don't have figures, but I get the impression that gun crime is much less in evidence here than in both the US and the UK.
> Here I _think_ that most guns are still in the hands of hunters and the occasional drug baron and not crazy, frightened teens or evil adult killers


According to today's Sur in English there have been two fatal shootings in the Mijas area in recent weeks, I believe the victims were involved in organised crime.


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## Elyles

Generally it is criminals killing others but the heaviest time for murder in the US is during holidays when family with unresolved issues meet and get drunk.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> According to today's Sur in English there have been two fatal shootings in the Mijas area in recent weeks, I believe the victims were involved in organised crime.


Well I can't deny that surprises me. Maybe it's hotter in the south in all senses. 
Still, I was under the impression that armed crime was on the up in the UK and that knives are quite common in schools in some areas. I'm not sufficiently interested, but there's a report here if anyone wants to read it
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/457646/pprc-user-guide.pdf
Apparently there was an arms amnesty in the UK fairly recently...

And as you point out Spain is not in the clear. According to this table there are 9 firearms for every 100 inhabitants where as in the UK there are "only" 6. But how many are used in criminal activity is another thing.


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## Overandout

I guess that in Madrid there are quite often gun crimes, but I don't recall having heard about many whule I lived there.
The one which springs to mind was a plain clothes policeman driving into town on the Nacional 5 and got cut up by some young guys in another car. He lost it, forced them to stop then shot them....


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> And as you point out Spain is not in the clear. According to this table there are 9 firearms for every 100 inhabitants where as in the UK there are "only" 6. But how many are used in criminal activity is another thing.


But that sort of averaging statistic is meaningless. For 1,000 there are 60 firearms so 60 people have a gun but they may be the worst elements of that 1000 and may be prepared to use those weapons willy-nilly and with minimal provocation. So for the 65million living in UK there are almost 4 million guns, now if they are in the hands of 4 million nutters who all live in the same area can we please know where they ae so that we can avoid them.


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I guess that in Madrid there are quite often gun crimes, but I don't recall having heard about many whule I lived there.
> The one which springs to mind was a plain clothes policeman driving into town on the Nacional 5 and got cut up by some young guys in another car. He lost it, forced them to stop then shot them....


I quite agree. In all my time here there have been few gun crimes _reported _considering it's a capital city. i do remember being in Malasaña many years ago and hearing Alto Policia and being pushed off the pavement by what I presume were plain clothes, gun toting police.
Also ETA was responsible for a good number of arms and related crimes and they are almost extint now.



baldilocks said:


> But that sort of averaging statistic is meaningless. For 1,000 there are 60 firearms so 60 people have a gun but they may be the worst elements of that 1000 and may be prepared to use those weapons willy-nilly and with minimal provocation. So for the 65million living in UK there are almost 4 million guns, now if they are in the hands of 4 million nutters who all live in the same area can we please know where they ae so that we can avoid them.


I agree which is what I was saying before in post 55


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## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> According to today's Sur in English there have been two fatal shootings in the Mijas area in recent weeks, I believe the victims were involved in organised crime.


Yes, no shortage of guns on the Costa del Sol. Been quite a lot of what the Police called a "settling of accounts" over the years. Especially around Marbella and Calahonda.


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## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Yes, no shortage of guns on the Costa del Sol. Been quite a lot of what the Police called a "settling of accounts" over the years. Especially around Marbella and Calahonda.


Maybe that's why the dogs got whacked with the crossbow in Calahonda....

There have been quite a few shootings in and around Marbella over the past year. We had coffee in a bar in Benahavis one morning last August......apparently a Moroccan guy was shot there that evening.
It seems it's always drug related.


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## Elyles

Texas and the Wild West of the US have a strongly gun focused history. Both my father and grandfather are from there and I would visit there as a kid and finished high school there.

I recall my great uncle and grandfather once talking about taking the train to a small town in the 20's after work one Friday evening only to discover some drunk shooting up every building in sight. They got back on the train and immediately went home. My father once told me about being able to take his shotgun to school to hunt birds on the way home or to kill rattlesnakes. (Very small town Texas 1920's-1940's)

I remember finishing high school there in 69 and seeing other kids drive their trucks to school with their rifles displayed in the back windows. Nobody was shooting anybody else then! I recall taking an old 50's vintage auto out at night with some friends and hanging out of the back windows shooting rabbits in the headlights as we drove through the fields. I recall once when my mother had gone to Houston for the day to select a new residence and my brother borrowed a shotgun from a friend so we could hunt rabbits. He aimed he gun around in the living room saying (bang) then he pulled the trigger but the gun fired rhrough the wall. We repaired the hole and never told my mom till we were in our 50's. And I remember once when somebody shot out the neon sign of a hamburger joint I guess just for fun. (Slightly larger town) And, I remember the movie Easy Rider when the ******** killed the hippies and for then on we called the rifle racks Easy Rider Rifle Racks. 

Well into my career once I had to do crisis counseling at a high school in the early 90's because a girl shot her boyfriend in front of hundreds of others. Then the crack cocaine epidemic, etc. I also remember vividly doing supportive family therapy for parents of kids who shot and killed themselves because of peer relationship issues.

I guess these are my reasons for never owning a gun as an adult. It's interesting to see how when accepted and respected, gun ownership did not seem to be a big deal but when people got out of control with them, things really started to suck.

I never understood the KKK or anyone else who would just kill for anger or threaten others with guns. Of course, I never will undestand people killing themselves just because they are impulsive. Yeah, in the wrong hands guns are to be realistically feared. So, what do we do till we discover a way to keep guns out of the hands of those who don't respect them and their power?


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## mrypg9

Elyles said:


> ) So, what do we do till we discover a way to keep guns out of the hands of those who don't respect them and their power?


I guess we will see more shootings and massacres.

Why is it necessary for so many people to have guns?


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## Elyles

It isn't necessary. Unfortunately in the US there are laws to protect gun ownership. Guns are powerful and attract the powerless


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## amespana

Love that last sentence,is it one of yours?


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## Lynn R

I recalled this case from a few years ago when firearms were used in a series of robberies not far from here. One woman was badly injured, luckily not killed, when she arrived home from work at lunchtime to find a robbery in progress and was shot in the chest, in Colmenar which is quite a sleepy inland village between here and Málaga.

La Guardia Civil desarticula una red especializada en el robo de viviendas con armas de fuego


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## Lynn R

Cases like this one, just a few months ago,perhaps explain why criminals apparently don't find it difficult to get their hands on firearms.

Una banda especializada roba m?s de 80 armas de fuego de una galer?a de tiro - ABC.es


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## Elyles

Yeah, I still come up with crap like that


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## The Skipper

The Skipper said:


> A friend and two of his neighbours, who all live in an isolated rural area of inland North Alicante, were robbed last night by four men wearing black balaclavas and carrying knives. My friend was watching TV and they let themselves into his house through the unlocked front door and demanded money and anything gold. They hit him even though he co-operated and handed them everything he had of value. The nearest neighbour was jumped upon by the thieves when he went to an outside kitchen to get some beer and he and his wife were beaten when they at first resisted the demands of the thieves. The third neighbour had just opened his front door to take his dog for a walk when the men burst into the house. He offered resistance and was badly beaten, suffering cracked ribs. The men are believed to be in their 20s and had eastern European accents. The Guardia are, of course, on the case but I thought it was worth posting this warning so that everyone – especially those living in remote, rural locations – is aware of the need to take extra precautions and to report anything suspicious.


I've just been told that the Police arrested the bar-stewards last night in Albacete while they were trying to rob a house there. I can't find anything on the web yet. Has anyone else heard anything?


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## gus-lopez

Elyles said:


> It isn't necessary. Unfortunately in the US there are laws to protect gun ownership. Guns are powerful and attract the powerless


But that also ensures that the US government cannot walk all over the population. Especially when the population has greater firepower all told than those in power. Unlike the Uk where they have made illegal all & everything to ensure that those in power have the upper hand.


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> But that also ensures that the US government cannot walk all over the population. Unlike the Uk where they have made illegal all & everything to ensure that those in power have the upper hand.


Are you suggesting that if we were all able to buy guns we could overturn the Tory Government??? How do you know that we would all wish to point our guns at the same target? Is it OK for me to shoot the guy from Inland Revenue? And if we did use our guns, how would this mass armed insurrection be organised? Who would be in charge? The person with the most or the biggest guns? How could you ensure that the ensuing bunch of rulers wouldn't be as bad as the ones before?

From what I have read and experienced whilst in the U.S. it seems that the Federal Government has a great deal of power so your argument doesn't hold water, gus. Plus the fact that not all states allow unrestricted gun ownership.

The best way, indeed the only way, to ensure that the people have the 'upper hand', whatever that means, is to use the democratic means we already have, the ballot box, to vote in a political party that is responsive and accountable.

The use of violence in any civilised society must be a monopoly of government. Otherwise we would be lawless.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> *The use of violence in any civilised society must be a monopoly of government. * Otherwise we would be lawless.


I like your post except for the above. Are you suggesting armed suppression? Are you suggesting a return to the suppression of the strikers in MT's day, then we would end up with governmental lawlessness, it is bad enough now with the present incumbents, many of whom, I'm sure, would like it to be open-season on benefit claimants, Labour party voters, single mothers, pensioners, the unemployed, etc. without giving them the right to suppress dissenters by force of arms - this isn't Cold War Russia and despite the way Camoron and his crew of despotic morons act, I don't think he has got quite that far yet, although there may be some pressure from the hunting, shooting and fishing set to allow them to have access to using human and other animal targets, (but not pigs, of course) if they can't hunt foxes and other wild-life.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I like your post except for the above. Are you suggesting armed suppression? Are you suggesting a return to the suppression of the strikers in MT's day, then we would end up with governmental lawlessness, it is bad enough now with the present incumbents, many of whom, I'm sure, would like it to be open-season on benefit claimants, Labour party voters, single mothers, pensioners, the unemployed, etc. without giving them the right to suppress dissenters by force of arms - this isn't Cold War Russia and despite the way Camoron and his crew of despotic morons act, I don't think he has got quite that far yet, although there may be some pressure from the hunting, shooting and fishing set to allow them to have access to using human and other animal targets, (but not pigs, of course) if they can't hunt foxes and other wild-life.


But the powers-that-be already have a monopoly of force, Baldy...via the army, police forces, the law..
We may not agree with the way in which this monopoly is used, as in the case of the police v the miners, Thatcher's war in the Falklands or Blair's war in Iraq but it's a fact that these uses of force were sanctioned, in the case of the wars by vote in Parliament and in the case of the miners, the police would say with some reason that they were there to prevent violence and intimidation on the part of strikers against people wishing to exercise their right to work. Anyone who feels that the police may have exceeded their powers have the right to redress.
Of course we very often ignore the laws that forbid the use of violence and commit acts of robbery, murder, rape and other crimes of violence. But such acts are crimes.
Unless of course the state sanctions them. If in May 1938 you had shot a German you would have been charged with murder. Put him and you in uniform, fast-forward to 1940 and you may have been called a hero, told you'd done your duty and been given a medal!
As you point out, the state even tells you which animals you may kill and which you mustn't.
So yes, the state/powers-that-be does have a monopoly on force. In theory, if we don't like the way it uses that monopoly, we have ways and means to challenge it.
In theory.....


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## Simon22

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think it's a bit of a domino effect situation. If most of the people around you have bars I suppose you'd be wise to put them on too as your house becomes the easier one to get into. On the other hand, if few people around you have bars and you put them on it looks like your s is the property that stands empty for much of the time so that's where the easy pickings are.
> You can't win either way and you can be sure that if they want to get in, they will!


Yep, we have bars on the windows because everyone else does, no-one can remember the last break-in but why make yourself the target by removing them.


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## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> But that also ensures that the US government cannot walk all over the population. Especially when the population has greater firepower all told than those in power. Unlike the Uk where they have made illegal all & everything to ensure that those in power have the upper hand.



Anyone who believes that has no comprehension of the firepower of the US military.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> I like your post except for the above. Are you suggesting armed suppression? Are you suggesting a return to the suppression of the strikers in MT's day, then we would end up with governmental lawlessness, it is bad enough now with the present incumbents, many of whom, I'm sure, would like it to be open-season on benefit claimants, Labour party voters, single mothers, pensioners, the unemployed, etc. without giving them the right to suppress dissenters by force of arms - this isn't Cold War Russia and despite the way Camoron and his crew of despotic morons act, I don't think he has got quite that far yet, although there may be some pressure from the hunting, shooting and fishing set to allow them to have access to using human and other animal targets, (but not pigs, of course) if they can't hunt foxes and other wild-life.


Who else, apart from government agencies, would you suggest should be able to use violence against the populace?


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## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> Who else, apart from government agencies, would you suggest should be able to use violence against the populace?


Nobody, not even Government agencies! If we didn't have such unreasonable self-seeking governments, there would be less likelihood of the proletariat protesting and no need for the government agencies to use violence against the populace. Violence should be made illegal, even if the perpetrators are the government. Still November the 5th will soon be here and then, if all goes well...


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Nobody, not even Government agencies! If we didn't have such unreasonable self-seeking governments, there would be less likelihood of the proletariat protesting and no need for the government agencies to use violence against the populace. Violence should be made illegal, even if the perpetrators are the government. Still November the 5th will soon be here and then, if all goes well...


But 'the proletariat' don't protest......they vote Conservative, many of them.. The C1and C2s put Mrs T in Downing Street. Violent 'protest' is nearly always organised by a handful of groups like the SWP or Class War, many of whom are middle- class.
The 'populace' , on the whole, seem content with the status quo.
When there is civil violence and looting,damage to property and assaults on individuals as in London and other cities a couple of years ago, the 'populace' welcome police (government agency) intervention to restore calm and order.
When you are assaulted or threatened with violence where do you turn to for help and protection? The police, of course.
When the nation is threatened, we look to the armed forces.
Violence per se is already illegal. Even state sanctioned violence is subject to rules and limits and should be a last resort. The police have to observe strict rules when using firearms against terrorists or armed robbers.
As for Guy Fawkes....that was a failed attempt at a coup thwarted by....armed force of government. An attempt using the very violence you say you deplore.....


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## mrypg9

Mind you, I'm feeling up for a bit of violence myself, against Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, writer of naff musicals and multi-millionaire who, having attended the House of Lords not once in the past two years, flew in to London this week to vote for the Conservatives' mean little piece of legislation to cut the tax credits of low-waged working families, in some cases by as much as £3000 a year. 
Pass the sick bucket.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> As for Guy Fawkes....that was a failed attempt at a coup thwarted by....armed force of government. An attempt using the very violence you say you deplore.....


Maybe I deplore the attitudes and actions of this current government more!


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## Brangus

The Skipper said:


> I've just been told that the Police arrested the bar-stewards last night in Albacete while they were trying to rob a house there. I can't find anything on the web yet. Has anyone else heard anything?


There have been arrests of two groups of thieves in Albacete, but there is no mention in the news of a connection to the crimes that are supposedly the subject of this thread.

I subscribe to a local news feed here in Albacete and will let you know if additional info comes to light.


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## spicer187171

I live in Lincolnshire, and would like to move to Spain, after reading about the crime. Is it that bad? I'm not a dog lover, so I can't have one to chase the scum off. Is Portugal as bad?

Joe


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## snikpoh

spicer187171 said:


> I live in Lincolnshire, and would like to move to Spain, after reading about the crime. Is it that bad? I'm not a dog lover, so I can't have one to chase the scum off. Is Portugal as bad?
> 
> Joe


As with anywhere (UK or Spain), you only really hear about crimes when they occur, not when they don't!

[touch wood] - we have never been burgled, nor, I would suggest, have the majority of people living in Spain.


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## mrypg9

spicer187171 said:


> I live in Lincolnshire, and would like to move to Spain, after reading about the crime. Is it that bad? I'm not a dog lover, so I can't have one to chase the scum off. Is Portugal as bad?
> 
> Joe


No....until you get mugged or burgled. Then it's every bit as bad, worse in fact.
With respect, your question is unanswerable. A town or village can be crime-free for years...then a thief or gang target it and out of the blue it becomes a crime hot-spot
The fact is that nowhere is crime-free these days. Of course there are places which have 'reputations' but then as Lynn pointed out in an earlier post, knowing that, you move there at your own risk.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Maybe I deplore the attitudes and actions of this current government more!


As do I.....
So I'll get the barrels, you get the gunpowder and matches, I'll buy the EasyJet Gatwick tickets
Same day returns


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## baldilocks

spicer187171 said:


> I live in Lincolnshire, and would like to move to Spain, after reading about the crime. Is it that bad? I'm not a dog lover, so I can't have one to chase the scum off. Is Portugal as bad?
> 
> Joe


I used to live in that god-forsaken place as well and, if you lived out in the country, burglaries and break-ins were quite common there, probably more so than here.


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## The Skipper

spicer187171 said:


> I live in Lincolnshire, and would like to move to Spain, after reading about the crime. Is it that bad? I'm not a dog lover, so I can't have one to chase the scum off. Is Portugal as bad?
> 
> Joe


Our country cottage in the UK was burgled twice. We have lived in a remote location in Spain for nearly eight years and so far (touch wood!) we have not been the victims of any crime.


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## Overandout

The Skipper said:


> Our country cottage in the UK was burgled twice. We have lived in a remote location in Spain for nearly eight years and so far (touch wood!) we have not been the victims of any crime.


Just to provide the opposite view.... I lived in a large town in UK for 13 years and was not ever burgled. But since I have owned my flat in Madrid (2007) it has been burgled twice.

But, my motorcycle was stolen twice in the UK but I have never had a motorcycle stolen in Spain...
But, may car was never stolen in the UK and in Spain I have had one car stolen and another attempted theft....

In short, it makes no difference.


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Just to provide the opposite view.... I lived in a large town in UK for 13 years and was not ever burgled. But since I have owned my flat in Madrid (2007) it has been burgled twice.
> 
> But, my motorcycle was stolen twice in the UK but I have never had a motorcycle stolen in Spain...
> But, may car was never stolen in the UK and in Spain I have had one car stolen and another attempted theft....
> 
> In short, it makes no difference.


Out of curiosity, which part of Madrid?
I know people who have been burgled here, a large town 30km from Madrid, one with violence, but it's sporadic- and inevitable.


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## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Out of curiosity, which part of Madrid?
> I know people who have been burgled here, a large town 30km from Madrid, one with violence, but it's sporadic- and inevitable.


Aluche.


----------



## Brangus

The Skipper said:


> I've just been told that the Police arrested the bar-stewards last night in Albacete while they were trying to rob a house there. I can't find anything on the web yet. Has anyone else heard anything?


This article refers mainly to robberies committed two years ago in Caudete, Albacete, but it could be related to the recent crimes:

Detenido el cabecilla de un grupo que realizó seis robos con violencia

"El detenido cuenta con un amplio historial delictivo por robos en viviendas, cometidos principalmente en las provincias de la comunidad valenciana, [...]"


----------



## The Skipper

Brangus said:


> This article refers mainly to robberies committed two years ago in Caudete, Albacete, but it could be related to the recent crimes:
> 
> Detenido el cabecilla de un grupo que realizó seis robos con violencia
> 
> "El detenido cuenta con un amplio historial delictivo por robos en viviendas, cometidos principalmente en las provincias de la comunidad valenciana, [...]"


It sounds likely that this is the same gang but, if so, they are responsible for a lot more than six robberies. Well done the Guardia Civil for catching them!


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## Lynn R

The Skipper said:


> It sounds likely that this is the same gang but, if so, they are responsible for a lot more than six robberies. Well done the Guardia Civil for catching them!


The article refers to them being responsible for around 100 such robberies. It is good news they have been caught.


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## Madliz

When my father first came here to visit, he commented, "I see you have a lot of crime in this area, there are bars at all the windows."

"Quite the contrary." I told him. "Because of the bars, nobody gets burgled."

In two decades here, the only crime we have suffered was the loss of my daughter's bicycle, when we went away one Easter. It was our fault, in hindsight, for leaving it visible from the road. We guessed that someone had jumped over the gate in our quiet road and carried it away. With a burglar alarm system, rejas (bars) at the windows and secure locks, we have not been bothered in any other way. Others around here have been burgled using force to enter, but mainly those who advertised the fact that they were not living there - persianas at half mast, no vehicles and no lights after dark. If we are away, we have lights on timers to make the place appear occupied. This area is popular with Madrileños for holiday homes and every other house is empty. One family had three break-ins in ten years before they relented and installed a Securitas Direct alarm system, with no trouble since.

In summary, take sensible precautions to safeguard your house and belongings, as you would in any country, or you risk being a victim of crime.


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## Rockpea

That's reassuring to read Madliz - I'm particularly interested in the fact you say you have an alarm. We've just bought a place in Murcia region and we mentioned to the neighbours that we were planning to get an alarm and they said words to the effect of 'don't waste the money, it doesn't put the criminals off'. But as we own a townhouse with potentially several access points for breaking and entering, Im still considering an alarm for peace of mind. Surely if potential burglars were casing out different places, seeing a place had an alarm might just make them figure it's not worth the bother?

Good tip re timer switches for lights - I think I'll take one or two over with me next visit!

Rp


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## mrypg9

Rockpea said:


> That's reassuring to read Madliz - I'm particularly interested in the fact you say you have an alarm. We've just bought a place in Murcia region and we mentioned to the neighbours that we were planning to get an alarm and they said words to the effect of 'don't waste the money, it doesn't put the criminals off'. But as we own a townhouse with potentially several access points for breaking and entering, Im still considering an alarm for peace of mind. Surely if potential burglars were casing out different places, seeing a place had an alarm might just make them figure it's not worth the bother?
> 
> Good tip re timer switches for lights - I think I'll take one or two over with me next visit!
> 
> Rp


We have an alarm system but I don't have much confidence in it as a deterrent. It would take at least ten minutes for the company to respond and I wouldn't expect our neighbours to risk assault or worse coming to investigate.
But we live in a house with big gardens so we are separated from our neighbours. An alarm might be more of a deterrent in a more built- up area.


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## Guest

We have an alarm system installed but the selling point for me was that it sends a notification to your mobile phone in the event of an intrusion and thus one eliminates the risk of walking in when the burglars are actually inside the property. This happened to me once when I lived in London. The burglars were kids and scarpered (with me in hot pursuit). Here, they could be grown men who panic when faced with the property owners and things could get out of control. There is also the deterrent element. All in all, alarms constitute an expense but are probably worth it, in my opinion.


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## Rockpea

I like the idea of an alarm that texts you - which company is it through?

Still on the subject of security - if a house has properly installed grilles on all windows and doors, does that make it pretty impenetrable??


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## LDN2ESP

This may have been asked previously, but what 'action' is permissible as 'self defence' within the confines of your property whilst residing in Spain? 

I'm not thinking of buying a gun upon my arrival in Spain, but a reasonable amount of protection seems a sensible way forward?


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## The Skipper

Rockpea said:


> I like the idea of an alarm that texts you - which company is it through?
> 
> Still on the subject of security - if a house has properly installed grilles on all windows and doors, does that make it pretty impenetrable??


No! An angle grinder will cut through the bars like a hot knife through butter. Or if you tie rope around the bars and attach it to a car tow bar, then drive away, the bars just pull out of the wall! I have been looking at alarm systems and, I have to say, they are far more sophisticated now than the one we had in the UK: Cameras, movement sensors, panic buttons, battery back-up and private mobile phone network (with anti-jamming system) connecting you to the monitoring station all for around €50 a month.


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## The Skipper

LDN2ESP said:


> This may have been asked previously, but what 'action' is permissible as 'self defence' within the confines of your property whilst residing in Spain?
> 
> I'm not thinking of buying a gun upon my arrival in Spain, but a reasonable amount of protection seems a sensible way forward?


When we first arrived in Spain eight years ago we read reports about a local burglary where a man was forced to open his safe while his wife was tied to a chair and beaten until he complied. Unknown to the thieves, the man had a gun in the safe. He took it out, turned and shot the thieving bar-stewards. The Guardia described the man as a hero and the local press was full of admiration for him. Trouble is, it´s almost impossible to get a licence for a pistol in Spain! I´m having to make do with an iron bar beside the bed!


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## mrypg9

meetloaf said:


> We have an alarm system installed but the selling point for me was that it sends a notification to your mobile phone in the event of an intrusion and thus one eliminates the risk of walking in when the burglars are actually inside the property. This happened to me once when I lived in London. The burglars were kids and scarpered (with me in hot pursuit). Here, they could be grown men who panic when faced with the property owners and things could get out of control. There is also the deterrent element. All in all, alarms constitute an expense but are probably worth it, in my opinion.


We had state of the art alarm systems installed in our. UK business premises with link to the local police station. We were nevertheless burgled a couple of times.
Our neighbours had sophisticated systems installed with tv cameras after we were burgled. They were burgled too.
We disturbed our burglars. One vaulted a 2 m plus wall with our Rhodesian Ridgeback at his heels. It was quite an impressive display of gymnastics.
Mind you,even flabby, unfit friends have said they would have done the same in similar circumstances.


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## Rockpea

The Skipper said:


> No! An angle grinder will cut through the bars like a hot knife through butter. Or if you tie rope around the bars and attach it to a car tow bar, then drive away, the bars just pull out of the wall! I have been looking at alarm systems and, I have to say, they are far more sophisticated now than the one we had in the UK: Cameras, movement sensors, panic buttons, battery back-up and private mobile phone network (with anti-jamming system) connecting you to the monitoring station all for around €50 a month.


Eek! I guess I'm hopeful that because we're in a small block of townhouses, any noise would alert neighbours. Although as someone said above, I'm not sure how willing they'd be to tackle the crims! I guess prevention is better than a cure and all that, so I'll definitely be bringing a couple of timer switches over! Shame we won't have wifi (yet) - I've got a 'Wemo' socket here in the UK that has a lamp plugged into it... And I can switch it off and on via an app on my phone wherever I am in the world!


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## Lynn R

Rockpea said:


> I guess prevention is better than a cure and all that, so I'll definitely be bringing a couple of timer switches over!


Er, you can buy timer switches in Spain, you know - and they fit Spanish plugs!


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## Horlics

The Skipper said:


> No! An angle grinder will cut through the bars like a hot knife through butter. Or if you tie rope around the bars and attach it to a car tow bar, then drive away, the bars just pull out of the wall! I have been looking at alarm systems and, I have to say, they are far more sophisticated now than the one we had in the UK: Cameras, movement sensors, panic buttons, battery back-up and private mobile phone network (with anti-jamming system) connecting you to the monitoring station all for around €50 a month.


Have a look at making your own too. Sites like instructables.com have projects and instructions. I've seen one where you have 2 car horns wired up, and you can have multiples of these planted around the house and gardens. Press a button and they all fire up. Whether burglars would scarper or not I don't know.


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## jimenato

I reckon dogs are as good a deterrent as anything.


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## jimenato

LDN2ESP said:


> This may have been asked previously, but what 'action' is permissible as 'self defence' within the confines of your property whilst residing in Spain?
> 
> I'm not thinking of buying a gun upon my arrival in Spain, but a reasonable amount of protection seems a sensible way forward?


I don't think that's clear even in the UK. I think the term 'reasonable force' is used but what 'reasonable force' actually comprises is open to debate.


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## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> I reckon dogs are as good a deterrent as anything.


Not if you are away from home and the dogs are with you. In any case, ours make a lot of noise but have tails wagging hoping for a stroke.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> Not if you are away from home and the dogs are with you. In any case, ours make a lot of noise but have tails wagging hoping for a stroke.


Yes - point taken but the noise is a deterrent. 

Also, although we go out with the dogs, everyone around knows we have them so unless they see us go out they don't know they're not there (an intruder in Jimena would be a local - the local lads wouldn't let anyone else on their patch).

No deterrent is 100%.


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## Overandout

Rockpea said:


> any noise would alert neighbours. Although as someone said above, I'm not sure how willing they'd be to tackle the crims!


I think you can ask yourself the same question about security personell also. 

Think about a private security firm sending out a guy to an alarm going off in your house. He probably works permanent night shift, has had minimal training and gets paid peanuts. How willing would you be to tackle potentially dangerous criminals in that situation?


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## The Skipper

jimenato said:


> I reckon dogs are as good a deterrent as anything.


All three of the houses that were robbed (see my original post) had dogs, one a German Shepherd, and it didn´t worry the thieves one iota. They treated the dogs as brutally as they did the humans! In other robberies in the past in this area drugged meat has been thrown over fences to knock out the dogs before the thieves break in. In one case a dog was shot dead! We have a dog and she is good at warning us that there is someone at the gate, but not much else!


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## The Skipper

Overandout said:


> I think you can ask yourself the same question about security personell also.
> 
> Think about a private security firm sending out a guy to an alarm going off in your house. He probably works permanent night shift, has had minimal training and gets paid peanuts. How willing would you be to tackle potentially dangerous criminals in that situation?


The alarm company I am speaking to don´t send out their own security staff, they call the Guardia Civil (we live in the campo). The system includes panic buttons placed around the inside of the house which send an emergency alert to the monitoring station via a private mobile phone network (battery back-up and anti-jamming system included). It´s the best protection I have ever seen - far more sophisticated than the alarm we had in the UK.


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## mrypg9

Our neighbours' house was broken into at 9.15 on a Saturday evening last December. We didn't hear a thing although they had an alarm and the thieves forced an entry.
We did hear Manolo's wife's screams when she came home to find her jewellery had been stolen.


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## VFR

The Skipper said:


> The alarm company I am speaking to don´t send out their own security staff, they call the Guardia Civil (we live in the campo). The system includes panic buttons placed around the inside of the house which send an emergency alert to the monitoring station via a private mobile phone network (battery back-up and anti-jamming system included). It´s the best protection I have ever seen - far more sophisticated than the alarm we had in the UK.


Yes that is what some people we know have fitted & they are happy as the husband fell and they needed urgent medical.
Pressed the alarm/call button and they answered quickly and had the medico at their place in under 10 (and all in English) so as a result we also have now had the same system installed.
As you say quite a neat piece of kit & I am happy that we also have this now as you never know, I guess we are talking Securitas Direct Verisure ?


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Our neighbours' house was broken into at 9.15 on a Saturday evening last December. We didn't hear a thing although they had an alarm and the thieves forced an entry.
> We did hear Manolo's wife's screams when she came home to find her jewellery had been stolen.


The house opposite ours was broken into one night (nobody lives there but the owners come every day to feed their cats) and we didn't hear a sound, either.

Unlike one New Year's Eve back in the UK when we were watching TV and heard a crash from next door (we knew the neighbours had gone to stay with family). My OH went out the back way and I went round the front, to find that someone had taken an axe to their back door. We couldn't see anyone around but suddenly a man broke cover from beside a portakabin that was there for some houses being built nearby, and ran off across the field, we decided not to follow as it was very dark and the ground was uneven. So the thief didn't get into the house, at least. We called the police who came out, but said it wasn't their job to make the door secure, so that was left to my OH and another neighbour who boarded it up.


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## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> The house opposite ours was broken into one night (nobody lives there but the owners come every day to feed their cats) and we didn't hear a sound, either.
> 
> Unlike one New Year's Eve back in the UK when we were watching TV and heard a crash from next door (we knew the neighbours had gone to stay with family). My OH went out the back way and I went round the front, to find that someone had taken an axe to their back door. We couldn't see anyone around but suddenly a man broke cover from beside a portakabin that was there for some houses being built nearby, and ran off across the field, we decided not to follow as it was very dark and the ground was uneven. So the thief didn't get into the house, at least. We called the police who came out, but said it wasn't their job to make the door secure, so that was left to my OH and another neighbour who boarded it up.


Sometime wonder just what is the job of the UK police.


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## The Skipper

VFR said:


> Yes that is what some people we know have fitted & they are happy as the husband fell and they needed urgent medical.
> Pressed the alarm/call button and they answered quickly and had the medico at their place in under 10 (and all in English) so as a result we also have now had the same system installed.
> As you say quite a neat piece of kit & I am happy that we also have this now as you never know, I guess we are talking Securitas Direct Verisure ?


Yes, that´s the one! We´re looking at a couple of others before ordering but Securitas Verisure is definitely the front runner. Pleased to hear yet another recommendation for it.


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## Rockpea

Lynn R said:


> Er, you can buy timer switches in Spain, you know - and they fit Spanish plugs!



Ha good point!!! Getting a bit carried away ;-)


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## Hardial

Sorry to hear of the violent crimes. It can be traumatic just to be burgled but to be physically abused can cause psychological side effects. 

One question pops into mind. Is this sort of crime likely to go up because of the way economy is in Spain and the lack of employment.


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## mrypg9

Hardial said:


> Sorry to hear of the violent crimes. It can be traumatic just to be burgled but to be physically abused can cause psychological side effects.
> 
> One question pops into mind. Is this sort of crime likely to go up because of the way economy is in Spain and the lack of employment.


Crime levels and unemployment/poverty are inextricably linked. But according to official statistics, unemployment has gone down from its high of almost 26% and is now around 24%.
However...that national figure masks significant regional differences. In Malaga Province, for example, unemployment has increased with the end of the holiday season and now stands at around 34% again.
Youth unemployment is at a staggering 60% plus here.


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## Lynn R

Hardial said:


> Sorry to hear of the violent crimes. It can be traumatic just to be burgled but to be physically abused can cause psychological side effects.
> 
> One question pops into mind. Is this sort of crime likely to go up because of the way economy is in Spain and the lack of employment.


The economy has been the way it is in Spain since 2008, and as Mary says the official unemployment figures have gone down slightly since the very worst time.

If there was to be a spike in crime, especially violent crime, one might expect that it would have happened by now.

Given the unemployment levels, especially amongst the young, I am actually surprised that the crime rate is not much higher than it actually is.


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