# Is an IELTS General Training English test acceptable for a UK Fiance Visa?



## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have a question about the IELTS General Training English test. WOuld this be accepted by the UK Embassy as part of a FIance visa does anyone know? 

I would be very grateful if anyone knew the answer to this question.

Thanks in Advance.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2011)

newlight1 said:


> I have a question about the IELTS General Training English test. WOuld this be accepted by the UK Embassy as part of a FIance visa does anyone know?
> 
> I would be very grateful if anyone knew the answer to this question.
> 
> Thanks in Advance.


If you had bothered to read the list of UKBA approved English tests I supplied you with in another thread yesterday, then you would know that it is indeed accepted.

teuchter


----------



## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for that. I am looking at the excellent link you gave me in the other thread do you know if it has to be a 4.0 in all four sections ie Reading, listening, writing and speaking? 

Or only for speaking and listening? As looking on their website it says the below 



> 1. Meeting the requirement by passing a test
> 
> What will spouses need to do to meet the test requirement?
> 
> ...


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...ners-other-family/guidance-for-applicants.pdf


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2011)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks for that. I am looking at the excellent link you gave me in the other thread do you know if it has to be a 4.0 in all four sections ie Reading, listening, writing and speaking?
> 
> Or only for speaking and listening? As looking on their website it says the below
> 
> ...


As per the list I linked to above, it must be 4.0 in all four sections at level B1. Different scores are accepted for different levels of the test (check the list), but all require passes in all four sections.

teuchter


----------



## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for that, you can see how I find it quite confusing?

I have contacted a few Solicitors and they all give me different answers and UKBA when I have called them say they don't know. 

Ref the English tests acceptable by UKBA:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf

For the IELTS test have these requirements

Listening – 4.0
Speaking – 4.0
Reading – 4.0
Writing – 4.0

However, looking at the other webpage

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...ners-other-family/guidance-for-applicants.pdf

state on page 4. 



> I have taken a test at level A1 which tested reading and writing as well as
> speaking and listening skills. I passed speaking and listening but failed
> to reach A1 in reading and writing. Can I still use this test?
> 
> ...


ALSO



> What will spouses need to do to meet the test requirement?
> 
> Spouses will need to demonstrate competence in English language speaking
> and listening at a basic level (Common European Framework of Reference,
> level A1).


This suggests that if an applicant for a Fiance/Spouse visa fails the Reading and writing part of the English test but passes the Listening and Speaking this is acceptable by UKBA for a Fiance/Spouse Visa? However, this should state that this is true of all the approved English tests such as IELTS which is does not. What should be on the webpage which provides information about the IELTS

Listening – 4.0
Speaking – 4.0
Reading – 4.0
Writing – 4.0

Should state something to the effect of "please note a 4.0 or above is only required for the Listening and Speaking module of this test".


----------



## impatient (Jun 17, 2012)

I seen exactly the same. My fiance has only passed speaking and listening and it states on UKBA website that is whats required. I printed and highlighted that to send in with the application just to cover ourselves.


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

Exactly my issue today


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

My view here is that only the speaking and listening sections are required if you sit the TOEIC certificate, which is specifically listed as the appropriate test for those who want a spouse visa (check it and see that they have actually stated under the TOEIC listing "(spouses and partners)". That's because its minimum A1 pass only requires you show evidence of proficiency in English in the speaking and listening sections.

The IELTS B1 (or other test/band as per the list) is only required if for some reason you can't take the TOEIC. The B1 level (4.0 band pass in all four sections) is required because the IELTS doesn't have a lower pass level. So if you take that particular test you must get a B1 in it, and that means in all four sections. In practise they may use some discretion if someone scores lower in the IELTS reading and speaking sections (since they only really want to know if you can speak and understand), but that's just my view, so don't rely on it . 

I may be wrong, but that's how I interpret it.


----------



## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

This thread is nearly 2 years old.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

My view here is that only the speaking and listening sections are required if you sit the TOEIC certificate, which is specifically listed as the appropriate test for those who want a spouse visa (check it and see that they have actually stated under the TOEIC listing "(spouses and partners)". That's because its minimum A1 pass level is an assessment of speaking and listening proficiency only.

The IELTS B1 (or other test/band as per the list) is only required if for some reason you can't take the TOEIC. The B1 level (4.0 band pass in all four sections) is required because the IELTS doesn't have a lower pass level. So if you take that particular test you must get a B1 in it, and that means in all four sections. In practise they may use some discretion if someone scores lower in the IELTS reading and speaking sections (since they only really want to know if you can speak and understand), but that's just my view, so don't rely on it . 

I may be wrong, but that's how I interpret it.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

I realise, but someone posted in January stating they had the same problem, so I thought I'd address it. Sorry for reposting it but I went over the 15 minute deadline.


----------



## mrmati85 (May 3, 2014)

*need help regarding IELTS*

early this morning, i went to one of the exam centers here in the Philippines to register for IELTS exam. when I got there, I was asked if i wanted to take the academic or general module. what module should I take for my fiance visa? please help. thank you so much!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

mrmati85 said:


> early this morning, i went to one of the exam centers here in the Philippines to register for IELTS exam. when I got there, I was asked if i wanted to take the academic or general module. what module should I take for my fiance visa? please help. thank you so much!


Either IELTS Academic or General Training is accepted for partner or spouse visas. 

They only differ in regards to the reading and writing parts of the test - listening and speaking are the same for both. For the Academic reading test, the required pass score is 12 out of 40. and for the General Training reading test (considered a little easier), the pass score is 15 out of 40. 

But either is acceptable for settlement visas. If someone wished to go to university after entering the UK, the Academic test is more suitable when applying for a student place. If they are just interested in working, then the General Training test may be more useful to an employer. But the British Government itself is not concerned with these differences.


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

Also, you only need to pass listening and speaking


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Also, you only need to pass listening and speaking



I think the listening and speaking parts will be of greater interest to the Home Office, but the minimum IELTS pass band is 4.0 for each of the 4 sections of the test. 

But that's only because IELTS itself doesn't have a pass band that excludes the reading and writing parts of the test, not that the Home Office wouldn't accept such a lesser score if it were specified by the IELTS authorities themselves.

The Home Office will accept other tests that only test listening and speaking ability, so from that you can draw your own conclusions. 

In my view, the mindset of the Home Office on this seems to be that they will accept IELTS results from someone who happens to have sat this test already or will be taking it anyway (perhaps for entrance to University or to get a job in the UK), or cannot find any other test to sit, but they accept lower bass scores from easier tests which also don't require you to pass reading and writing, simply because the authorities for those tests set the bar lower. 

Reading between the lines, it seems clear to me that the Home Office could well turn a blind eye to IELTS sitters who don't do so well on the reading and writing parts. They just don't say so.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

My advice: only do IELTS if you want to apply to university (Academic), get a job (General Training), or there is no test centre near you for one of the two easier test systems the Home Office accepts for settlement visas. 

These two other test systems are the GESE (Graded Examinations in Spoken English), which is British based, and TOEIC (Test of English for International Communication), which is a US based system. Not only do both of these two other systems only require someone to pass in speaking and listening, but they're easier tests to sit for in general, AND the pass scores required are also lower.

However even the IELTS minimum requirement is low and with just a little practise, most people should get the required pass score. So if you feel ok with IELTS, by all means do it. It is overkill for settlement visa purposes, but it will certainly look good on your visa application form.


----------



## mrmati85 (May 3, 2014)

Thank you so much! You've helped a lot. We were so ready to submit all requirements, and we just found out recently that the test's a must. Will take it on the 21st of june and the result will be available two weeks later, so we're really behind schedule  Thanks again!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

mrmati85 said:


> Thank you so much! You've helped a lot. We were so ready to submit all requirements, and we just found out recently that the test's a must. Will take it on the 21st of june and the result will be available two weeks later, so we're really behind schedule  Thanks again!



You're welcome. Good luck!


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> I think the listening and speaking parts will be of greater interest to the Home Office, but the minimum IELTS pass band is 4.0 for each of the 4 sections of the test.
> 
> .


Not in each >.< i think for as long as 4.0 in listening and 4.0 speaking it should be OK >.<


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Are all the pass rates on these tests not at a similar level?

My daughter in law did IELTS does this mean there is an easier one available?


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Not in each >.< i think for as long as 4.0 in listening and 4.0 speaking it should be OK >.<



I'm not disputing that, and actually it would be better for my wife (who will be doing the IELTS later this year) if that were the case, but do you have a source for this?


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

James50 said:


> I'm not disputing that, and actually it would be better for my wife (who will be doing the IELTS later this year) if that were the case, but do you have a source for this?



James why is your wife doing the English test if she is from Australia?


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> I'm not disputing that, and actually it would be better for my wife (who will be doing the IELTS later this year) if that were the case, but do you have a source for this?


Yes... Because my Fiance who applied from Philippines got refused because of the IELTS score but he retook the exam with higher score and got the visa.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Hertsfem said:


> James why is your wife doing the English test if she is from Australia?


I thought someone might ask that. It's because we're currently living elsewhere, where there is only an IELTS test centre, and my wife isn't Australian.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Yes... Because my Fiance who applied from Philippines got refused because of the IELTS score but he retook the exam with higher score and got the visa.


I see. What were his scores in each section?


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> I see. What were his scores in each section?


James, 
My fiance's previous score was:
Speaking - 4.0
Listening - 3.5
Reading - 3.0
Writing - 5.5
total band score 4.0 
*This was the what's on the refusal letter:* To meet the current English language requirements for entry to the UK. you are required to submit evidence that you passed an acceptable test at a minimum level with an approved provider. You have submitted an IELTS certificate demonstrating an overall score of 4.0, However as of the 18/07/2011 it became a mandatory requirement for spouse application to achieve a minimum of 4.0 in the Listening and Speaking components of IELTS or submit evidence that they have an academic qualification equivalent to Bachelor's degree in the UK which was tauight in English. Whilst your overall score was 4., you scored only 3.5 in the LIstening component of the examination. 
I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of appendix FM of the immigration rules. (E-ECP.4.1)

he re-took the exam and scored:
Speaking - 5.0
Listening - 5.0
Reading - 2.0
Writing - 5.0
Total band score 4.5

when i did my research, the breakdown of the score is that once you have 4.0 in overall band score means you reach B1 level.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> James,
> My fiance's previous score was:
> Speaking - 4.0
> Listening - 3.5
> ...




This is really really excellent information, Thank you so much for having the kindness and generosity to share this! Did I say thank you?


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> This is really really excellent information, Thank you so much for having the kindness and generosity to share this! Did I say thank you?


You are most welcome  I've been through that situation before and i know how hard it is to be in that situation so i want to help as much as i can  

Here's more to put your mind at ease  this is from the FAQ in UKVI or UKBA website 

*SET 17.5.1 Does the applicant need to pass the test overall?*

No the applicant only needs to pass the speaking and listening elements at the A1 level they do not need to pass the reading and writing parts.

Another FAQ from UKBA website:

*I have taken a test at level A1 which tested reading and writing as well as 
speaking and listening skills. I passed speaking and listening but failed 
to reach A1 in reading and writing. Can I still use this test? *

Providing you can demonstrate you have passed in speaking and listening at 
Level A1 with one of the approved test providers you can use this evidence. 
We are only using tests which can show separate scores for speaking and 
listening skills.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Pultet have you been reunited yet?


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

Hertsfem said:


> Pultet have you been reunited yet?


Herstfem Hi, ^_^ not yet flights are all full, the only available flights are for 20 - 25 may and i can't afford business or first class hahaha... but very very soon within this month for sure thanks


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> You are most welcome  I've been through that situation before and i know how hard it is to be in that situation so i want to help as much as i can
> 
> Here's more to put your mind at ease  this is from the FAQ in UKVI or UKBA website
> 
> ...



Excellent! But I have one questions. IELTS itself doesn't have an A1 level as such. The lowest IELTS level is B1, which is 4.0 overall. So if they require the 4.0 scores in just the listening and speaking parts of the IELTS test, how can we be absolutely sure since while I hear what you're citing there about the authorities only using tests that itemise the scores of each section separately, they still don't specify that in the case of the IELTS test, A1 is only implied, not overtly stated. But I do agree that it seems as though this is the case.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Herstfem Hi, ^_^ not yet flights are all full, the only available flights are for 20 - 25 may and i can't afford business or first class hahaha... but very very soon within this month for sure thanks



Yay!


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> Excellent! But I have one questions. IELTS itself doesn't have an A1 level as such. The lowest IELTS level is B1, which is 4.0 overall. So if they require the 4.0 scores in just the listening and speaking parts of the IELTS test, how can we be absolutely sure since while I hear what you're citing there about the authorities only using tests that itemise the scores of each section separately, they still don't specify that in the case of the IELTS test, A1 is only implied, not overtly stated. But I do agree that it seems as though this is the case.


I know what you mean i think what happen is that when you wife reach 4.0 in listening and 4.0 in speaking that will automatically become 4.0 for overall score and 4.0 in IETLS means B1 level. I'm not 100% sure about this but what i'm sure of is that your wife won't score 0 in reading and writing. 

i'M TRYING TO find that link on Google where it actually explains everything but i can't find it


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> I know what you mean i think what happen is that when you wife reach 4.0 in listening and 4.0 in speaking that will automatically become 4.0 for overall score and 4.0 in IETLS means B1 level. I'm not 100% sure about this but what i'm sure of is that your wife won't score 0 in reading and writing.
> 
> i'M TRYING TO find that link on Google where it actually explains everything but i can't find it



Thank you, Pultet. I'll be watching this space to see if you do manage to find it.


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

Try this though this is not what i wanted to show you  http://www.ielts.org/institutions/test_format_and_results/how_is_ielts_marked.aspx


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

and this IELTS - Exams - British Council - Czech Republic <<< this one i printed and highlighted and included in our applications lol


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> and this IELTS - Exams - British Council - Czech Republic <<< this one i printed and highlighted and included in our applications lol


Ah, I see. That shows that there is in fact an A1 in IELTS, but there's no score associated with it. So no doubt the Home Office would say that as there's no score indicator at the A1 level, B1 will have to be made the lowest requirement as that's the lowest level with an associated score. Does that makes sense? 

Which would mean that while I do agree that they'll probably indeed make the listening and speak parts their only criteria, we can't absolutely depend on it.

Incidentally in practise tests, my wife scored a 7 in listening and a 6 in reading. So I'm not too worried. Just want to be very sure she'll pass.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

James50 said:


> Ah, I see. That shows that there is in fact an A1 in IELTS, but there's no score associated with it. So no doubt the Home Office would say that as there's no score indicator at the A1 level, B1 will have to be made the lowest requirement as that's the lowest level with an associated score. Does that makes sense?
> 
> Which would mean that while I do agree that they'll probably indeed make the listening and speak parts their only criteria, we can't absolutely depend on it.
> 
> Incidentally in practise tests, my wife scored a 7 in listening and a 6 in reading. So I'm not too worried. Just want to be very sure she'll pass.


James what country does your wife come from? some countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe mostly score well in the english test. Although the Home Office claim it's not their first language. In Zimbabwe you would not even get a job if you could not speak English! newpapers are in English, schooling is in English, road signs are too. It's a bit of a money making racquet I recon


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

> Ah, I see. That shows that there is in fact an A1 in IELTS, but there's no score associated with it. So no doubt the Home Office would say that as there's no score indicator at the A1 level, B1 will have to be made the lowest requirement as that's the lowest level with an associated score. Does that makes sense?


Right! 



> Which would mean that while I do agree that they'll probably indeed make the listening and speak parts their only criteria, we can't absolutely depend on it.
> 
> Incidentally in practise tests, my wife scored a 7 in listening and a 6 in reading. So I'm not too worried. Just want to be very sure she'll pass


My boyfriend said that the exam wasn't really that hard, is just that it's hard for him to understand the accent and because he doesn't speak English frequently he found the exam really hard for him. 

Tip, the first one i think speaking or something they'll interview her and ask question... she can answer anything it doesn't really matter if she answers it wrong for as long as she keeps speaking and not repeating a word over and over and avoid saying "AHM, hmm"


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Hertsfem said:


> James what country does your wife come from? some countries like South Africa and Zimbabwe mostly score well in the english test. Although the Home Office claim it's not their first language. In Zimbabwe you would not even get a job if you could not speak English! newpapers are in English, schooling is in English, road signs are too. It's a bit of a money making racquet I recon


Solomon Islands. English is not quite as widely spoken as it is in South Africa, but it it is officially the national language here and the newspapers, parliament sessions and legal proceedings etc. are all in English. The problem is that the local vernacular is Pidgin English because while it's like English in some ways, it's not enough like English to make people easily conversant in it who were not raised speaking it.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Right!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great tip, thank you!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Where's your boyfriend from?


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

James50 said:


> Where's your boyfriend from?


Philippines  i know the second language in the Philippines is English but it's not the same when you don't speak it often


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

James50 said:


> Ah, I see. That shows that there is in fact an A1 in IELTS...


Nice thought but not really. The score doesn't acceptably compute.
UKVI will expect 4.0 (B1 level) for UK entry.
The positive aspect of this though is that with a B1 graded pass there'll be no need to take any further English Language tests for ILR or Naturalisation.



James50 said:


> Incidentally in practise tests, my wife scored a 7 in listening and a 6 in reading. So I'm not too worried. Just want to be very sure she'll pass.


That's a good score.....she'll be fine.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

I thought IELTS expired after 2 years?


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Hertsfem said:


> I thought IELTS expired after 2 years?


Yes, true, the guidance notes state that it's only good for 2 years, but this is from a recent letter from the Home Office. 

"Please note that the 2 year validity attached to these qualifications only applies to entry clearance applications and are therefore still accepted for settlement and citizenship applications after this validity date."


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Terpe said:


> That's a good score.....she'll be fine.


I just told her that and she says thank you. I have the hardest time convincing her myself so you just rendered a great service, believe me!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Terpe said:


> Nice thought but not really. The score doesn't acceptably compute.
> UKVI will expect 4.0 (B1 level) for UK entry.
> The positive aspect of this though is that with a B1 graded pass there'll be no need to take any further English Language tests for ILR or Naturalisation.
> .


Are you saying that the Life in the UK test won't be required for ILR and naturalisation?


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

James50 said:


> Yes, true, the guidance notes state that it's only good for 2 years, but this is from a recent letter from the Home Office.
> 
> "Please note that the 2 year validity attached to these qualifications only applies to entry clearance applications and are therefore still accepted for settlement and citizenship applications after this validity date."


Wait, wait, wait, wait.... does this mean that if I passed the IELTS test for my original spouse visa in 2012, under the old rules, I DO NOT need to pass it again? I was under impression that I definitely need to take and pass this test again and was going to book and take it in June? Do I not need to do this and can I use my original report from January 2012 even though it expired in January this year? Can someone please confirm this?


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Wait, wait, wait, wait.... does this mean that if I passed the IELTS test for my original spouse visa in 2012, under the old rules, I DO NOT need to pass it again? I was under impression that I definitely need to take and pass this test again and was going to book and take it in June? Do I not need to do this and can I use my original report from January 2012 even though it expired in January this year? Can someone please confirm this?


Well that's what the letter says, but let me post the query letter and the Home Office response in full so that you can make a better assessment and write to the Home Office if you're still unsure.

------>thomas82 wrote:Hi guys just got a reply from the HOME OFFICE regarding my query about expired IELTS for my wife


My Query :

Dear Sir/Madam

My wife was granted her spouse visa using the FLR(M) form on February 23 2012 at Liverpool.While she applied for the Visa she had to submit evidence of an English language qualification and hence produced an IELTS certificate with a score of 7.5 equivalent to C1 Level. She passed the IELTS test in August 2011. And since an IELTS certificate has only got validity of 2 years , her certificate has expired now.

She is going to apply for settlement using the SET(M) form in January 2014 and as per English language element of the new KOLL requirement, she will have to submit evidence of her knowledge in English. Will her existing IELTS certificate be sufficient? If it is sufficient what option do we tick for "And one of the following language qualifications:" on page 14 of SET(M)?

I would really appreciate if you could advice me with some information.

Thank You



Reply from HOME OFFICE:

Dear Mr Thomas

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the revised knowledge of Language and Life in the UK requirement that came in to force on 28th October 2013.

We will accept a range of English language qualifications as evidence that an applicant has met the requirement to hold a B1 level speaking and listening qualification. This will help ensure that all those needing to take a test will be able to find one suitable for their needs and, so far as possible, that no one who already has an English language qualification at B1 level or above will be required to take another one.

An IELTS (International English Language Testing System) qualification awarded by Cambridge English (previously known as Cambridge ESOL), which is at a level equivalent to level B1 CEFR or above, is an acceptable qualification for the purposes of demonstrating language ability for settlement and citizenship purposes.

*Please note that the 2 year validity attached to these qualifications only applies to entry clearance applications and are therefore still accepted for settlement and citizenship applications after this validity date.
*
Evidence that the applicant has achieved this qualification should be submitted with their application for settlement. When completing the Form SET(M) applicants should tick the box at section 5.2 which states that you have an English language speaking and listening qualification.

Applicants will also need to show that they have passed the life in the UK test to demonstrate their knowledge of life in the UK.

Regards

Mrs C Richards

Nationality Policy Advisor | Operational Policy & Rules Unit

Immigration & Border Policy | Home Office

Home Office, The Capital, Old Hall Street, Liverpool, L3 9PP.<------


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Wait, wait, wait, wait.... does this mean that if I passed the IELTS test for my original spouse visa in 2012, under the old rules, I DO NOT need to pass it again? I was under impression that I definitely need to take and pass this test again and was going to book and take it in June? Do I not need to do this and can I use my original report from January 2012 even though it expired in January this year? Can someone please confirm this?


Note that a settlement visa is an ILR (Indefinite Leave to Remain) under another name. If that's what you're after, then you don't have to retake the IELTS test according to that letter.

From gov.uk: "Settlement is also called 'indefinite leave to remain'."


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Yes, I should be applying for ILR. But, being able to use my expired IELTS sounds too good to be true. Is there anything official about this on any government website? The PDF file with the list of test centres clearly states that IELTS tests are only valid for two years? Whom do I send an email to in order to check this? I was not aware that it was at all possible to contact the Home Office?


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Yes, I should be applying for ILR. But, being able to use my expired IELTS sounds too good to be true. Is there anything official about this on any government website? The PDF file with the list of test centres clearly states that IELTS tests are only valid for two years?



Well that's a letter from the Home Office, so you can't get more official than that.  And I note that other people had received the same letter when asking the same question. If you still have your doubts, then I guess you would have to write to them at their address in Liverpool. Alternatively ask a settlement lawyer to research this for you. He may be able to do it faster.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Immigration lawyers are, I think, almost completely useless. I contacted a couple for a free consultation over the phone in order to see if it was worth hiring one and saving myself a lot of work when i originally applied two years ago and it became very clear they didn't know what they were talking about... Do I need to send a snail mail letter to Home Office in Liverpool or do they have an email address and where do I find it?


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Immigration lawyers are, I think, almost completely useless. I contacted a couple for a free consultation over the phone in order to see if it was worth hiring one and saving myself a lot of work when i originally applied two years ago and it became very clear they didn't know what they were talking about... Do I need to send a snail mail letter to Home Office in Liverpool or do they have an email address and where do I find it?


Snail mail, yes.


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

Please don't contact any immigration lawyer, Honestly we have our application denied twice because of the wrong and misleading information, they don't know anything... they in fact want applicants to get refused so you can hire them again to for the appeal!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Pultet said:


> Please don't contact any immigration lawyer, Honestly we have our application denied twice because of the wrong and misleading information, they don't know anything... they in fact want applicants to get refused so you can hire them again to for the appeal!



Good point.


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

ashkevron said:


> Yes, I should be applying for ILR. But, being able to use my expired IELTS sounds too good to be true. Is there anything official about this on any government website? The PDF file with the list of test centres clearly states that IELTS tests are only valid for two years? Whom do I send an email to in order to check this? I was not aware that it was at all possible to contact the Home Office?


Here's an extract from the original *Home Office statement of Intent*



> We will accept a range of English language qualifications as evidence that an applicant has met the requirement to hold a B1 level speaking and listening qualification. This will help ensure that all
> those needing to take a test will be able to find one suitable for their needs and, *so far as possible, that no one who already has an English language qualification at B1 level or above will be required to take another one.*


I've highlighted in bold the key part which indicates that if a B1 level has been achieved already then no further tests are required.

However, seemingly this wasn't specific enough (Maybe as it mentioned Tier 2 but no mention to Spouse) and resulted in a number of Freedom of Information requests for
specific clarification.

*Here's one that was asked* and received a successful response quoted below in part:- 



> The fact that an applicant’s qualifying English language certificate had expired would not prevent them from using their pass notification as evidence that they had reached level B1 (CEFR) English for a settlement or British citizenship application. They would not be expected to take another English
> Language test, but will need to pass the Life in the UK test.


*Here's another FOI reply* which states:-



> If your qualification is on the list of acceptable qualifications published on our website (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-...), you will not need to retake an English test. The expiry dates for those tests do not apply to settlement and citizenship applications. You should send your certificate with the application.


*And here's yet another*

Interestingly the reply came from a team called 'Knowledge Of Life Policy Queries Home Office' who included this very helpful document called *Knowledge Of Language and Life in The UK Requirement Qualifications Fact Sheet*

Maybe this will be helpful


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Thank you, Terpe! It's odd that the Home Office doesn't express this as clearly in their principle guidance notes on their website, since it's easy enough to do. 

Anyhow, in one fell swoop, that factsheet answers all our questions! Nice one! Thanks again!


These are the relevant clarifications:

2. *Do I need to pass all parts of the qualification?
*
Some of the qualifications which we accept include speaking and listening as part of a wider qualification which also covers reading and writing skills but other qualifications are available which concentrate on speaking and listening skills only.Those who are unable to demonstrate all 4 communicative skills are advised to study for a qualification that concentrates on speaking and listening skills only. We will not look at scores for each part of the test but the overall score, which must be at B1 CEFR level or above
.
3.* What if your website says my qualification expires after 2 years?*

The expiry dates on that list do not apply to settlement
or citizenship applications. If your test is on the attached list it will be acceptable.

Note, hower, the following: 

4. *I sent my documents for a previous application. Do I need to send them again?*

Yes. Evidence that an English language requirement was met for entry clearance 
purposes is only held by the post abroad for a limited period. In addition, this information is not easily accessible to caseworkers in the UK. You should therefore send 
evidence of your qualification with your application.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Okay, but wait: this seems contradict question 2 of the factsheet:

"IELTS (Academic and General Training) is on both the SELT list, and in
Appendix O of the rules, therefore would be acceptable as evidence that an
applicant who had scored:


Listening – 4.0

Speaking – 4.0

has met the English language element of the KOLL requirement. The fact
that an applicant’s qualifying English language certificate had expired
would not prevent them from using their pass notification as evidence that
they had reached level B1 (CEFR) English for a settlement or British
citizenship application. They would not be expected to take another
English language test, but will need to pass the Life in the UK test."

On the one hand, they say they only look at the overall score (4.0 overall for all 3 sections), on the other they say that provided you score at least a 4.0 in each of speaking and listening, you've passed. So which is it?


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

James50 said:


> ......On the one hand, they say they only look at the overall score (4.0 overall for all 3 sections), on the other they say that provided you score at least a 4.0 in each of speaking and listening, you've passed. So which is it?


That's a question that has been raised and answered quite a number of times under FOI

*Here's something from UKVI* that clearly states that when all 4 modules are taken under test as part of a package (often the case) that even lower than required grades/scores at reading and writing will not be used:-




> ..In regards specifically to IELTS, from the table of approved providers you
> will see that the lowest level of IELTS accepted by the UKBA as an
> approved test is level 4. An applicant wishing to rely on an IELTS
> qualification would therefore have to provide evidence that they have
> ...


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

So if B1 is a pass for IELTS then what would the actual score be?


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

Hertsfem said:


> So if B1 is a pass for IELTS then what would the actual score be?


The minimum....... which is 4
IELTS doesn't get scored below 4 (B1)

*Look here at the UKVI Approved List*


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

I have now spent over a month dealing with English language tests and what I need to do about them and am close to crying :Cry:... There is NO ONE to contact about whether the expired IELTS can be used, or at least I cannot find any address or email on which they'll answer. It says in Paragraphs 2.1 and 2.2(b) of https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._Immigration_Rules_-_Appendix_KOLL_MASTER.pdf that:

Part 2 - knowledge of language and life 

2.1 An applicant for leave to enter or remain has sufficient knowledge of the English language and about life in the United Kingdom for the purpose of an application for indefinite leave to enter or remain made under these Rules if the requirements set out in paragraphs 2.2 and 2.3 are met unless the exceptions set out in Part 3 apply. 

2.2 For the purposes of paragraph 2.1, an applicant has sufficient knowledge of the English language if: 

(b) the applicant- 


(i) has limited leave to enter or remain in the UK, and 

(ii) that leave (or a grant of leave which preceded it provided any periods of leave 
since have been unbroken) was given on the basis that the applicant had an 
English language qualification at a minimum level of B1 on the Common European 
Framework of Reference for Languages. 

So, as far as I understand, in a round-about way it does state that IELTS test maybe usable BUT this may be only under the assumption that the test has not expired. Could some moderator please, please, please shed some light on this.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Terpe said:


> The minimum....... which is 4
> IELTS doesn't get scored below 4 (B1)
> 
> *Look here at the UKVI Approved List*


Thanks, my daughter in law averaged 8, so does that make it a B1 or A1? sorry it's rather confusing...


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Hertsfem said:


> Thanks, my daughter in law averaged 8, so does that make it a B1 or A1? sorry it's rather confusing...


I think 7.5 is C1 and 8.5 is C2 so she is somewhere in between the two, both of which are well above the required B1 level.


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

ashkevron said:


> I think 7.5 is C1 and 8.5 is C2 so she is somewhere in between the two, both of which are well above the required B1 level.


Ok thanks


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

Terpe said:


> That's a question that has been raised and answered quite a number of times under FOI
> 
> *Here's something from UKVI* that clearly states that when all 4 modules are taken under test as part of a package (often the case) that even lower than required grades/scores at reading and writing will not be used:-



Okay, I think I get it. (by the way, I said all 3 sections -- I meant all 4, sorry!). 

Okay, this is how I understand it now. The factsheet you posted a link to is talking about tests *in general*, some of which don't give scores separately and so have to be assessed *overall.* However, where they the Home Office specifically mention IELTS, since IELTS scores *areE* itemised separately, and the Home Office requirement is only for partner visa applicants to pass in speaking and listening, the other scores can be ignored. Phew! Finally we're there!


I do fully understand now, and it seems Pultet was absolutely right after all. However, why couldn't the Home Office have been clearer from the outset? Perhaps the staff there should be required to sit the IELTS test themselves.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Yes, the Home Office should be clearer or they should have an official questions/answer part where they post questions people have emailed them and the answers to those questions. Even though I am now around 99% sure I do not need to take the IELTS test again (and two days ago I was 100% certain I need to take it again), I am not 100% sure because it is not stated anywhere clearly and officially. I can't take the printout of someone's letter and a response to that letter as proof that I do not need to take the test again if I get questioned about it when I'm applying for the ILR. 

Hubby dear has read all the links this morning and having studied law, he says that he is certain I do not need to take it again, but he is not an immigration specialist and really knew nothing about immigration law before he met me 

If Joppa or _shel or some other moderator confirmed my expired IELTS test was OK to be used for ILR application, I wouldn't take another one, but this way I just don't know. I'll probably risk it and use the expired IELTS test and take the printouts of the previous official links posted but I am still worried about it, I can't just say that part of my application is finished and I need to move onto the other requirements, like I did with the marriage certificate and other things which were clearer.


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

Hertsfem said:


> Thanks, my daughter in law averaged 8, so does that make it a B1 or A1? sorry it's rather confusing...


Sadly UKVI don't accept average or overall average. Only a definitive 'score' for specified elements.

Here's what UKVI state on their approved list:-

C1 =
Listening – 7.0
Speaking – 7.0
Reading – 7.0
Writing – 7.0

C2 =
Listening – 8.5
Speaking – 8.5
Reading – 8.5
Writing – 8.5

So with a score of 8 she has IELTS C1

Hope that helps


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

ashkevron said:


> Yes, the Home Office should be clearer or they should have an official questions/answer part where they post questions people have emailed them and the answers to those questions. Even though I am now around 99% sure I do not need to take the IELTS test again (and two days ago I was 100% certain I need to take it again), I am not 100% sure because it is not stated anywhere clearly and officially. I can't take the printout of someone's letter and a response to that letter as proof that I do not need to take the test again if I get questioned about it when I'm applying for the ILR.
> 
> Hubby dear has read all the links this morning and having studied law, he says that he is certain I do not need to take it again, but he is not an immigration specialist and really knew nothing about immigration law before he met me
> 
> If Joppa or _shel or some other moderator confirmed my expired IELTS test was OK to be used for ILR application, I wouldn't take another one, but this way I just don't know. I'll probably risk it and use the expired IELTS test and take the printouts of the previous official links posted but I am still worried about it, I can't just say that part of my application is finished and I need to move onto the other requirements, like I did with the marriage certificate and other things which were clearer.


Personally I consider Visa Applications to be too important to take chances.
You need to minimise all risks and strive for full compliance.

If you're not convinced by the official UKVI information and UKVI links here in this thread then I'd strongly advise you to contact UKVI direct (yes I understand it's easier said than done :fingerscrossed

I'm not sure if these e-mails remain current ...but worth a try anyway:-

- [email protected]
- [email protected] (send with "FAQ" in the subject line)


----------



## Pultet (Sep 17, 2013)

And my bf got 4.0, embarrassing ahhahahhahhaha


----------



## Hertsfem (Jun 19, 2013)

Terpe said:


> Sadly UKVI don't accept average or overall average. Only a definitive 'score' for specified elements.
> 
> Here's what UKVI state on their approved list:-
> 
> ...


Thankyou very much, well it's clearly good enough so shall leave it at that


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Terpe said:


> Personally I consider Visa Applications to be too important to take chances.
> You need to minimise all risks and strive for full compliance.
> 
> If you're not convinced by the official UKVI information and UKVI links here in this thread then I'd strongly advise you to contact UKVI direct (yes I understand it's easier said than done :fingerscrossed
> ...


Thank you. Yes, I agree I need to minimise the risks but I'm trying to be reasonable and not overly obsessed. If I did things my way I'd do everything from scratch - new IELTS test, marriage certificate not older than 3 months, freshly translated, new housing inspection report (even though only the two of us live in the house and I have the housing inspection report from 2 years ago), new house deeds bought and received via snail mail etc. 

Thank you SO much for the email addresses, I'll try them and let people know if that produces any results!


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

ashkevron said:


> .....Thank you SO much for the email addresses, I'll try them and let people know if that produces any results!


Do please shoot off an e-mail and Good luck.
Feedback is a great gift.

I spent 3 weeks and 13 e-mails attempting to get an 'official' answer regarding expired TB certification and entry to UK

The answer was no problem if the certificate is expired provided it was valid at the time of visa application.
Sometimes you just need to keep plugging away.....the positive is that you usually get a contact detail which can be used to help others.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Yes, the Home Office should be clearer or they should have an official questions/answer part where they post questions people have emailed them and the answers to those questions. Even though I am now around 99% sure I do not need to take the IELTS test again (and two days ago I was 100% certain I need to take it again), I am not 100% sure because it is not stated anywhere clearly and officially. I can't take the printout of someone's letter and a response to that letter as proof that I do not need to take the test again if I get questioned about it when I'm applying for the ILR.
> 
> Hubby dear has read all the links this morning and having studied law, he says that he is certain I do not need to take it again, but he is not an immigration specialist and really knew nothing about immigration law before he met me
> 
> If Joppa or _shel or some other moderator confirmed my expired IELTS test was OK to be used for ILR application, I wouldn't take another one, but this way I just don't know. I'll probably risk it and use the expired IELTS test and take the printouts of the previous official links posted but I am still worried about it, I can't just say that part of my application is finished and I need to move onto the other requirements, like I did with the marriage certificate and other things which were clearer.


\


I think your husband's right. Some of what Terpe has posted is not just from someone's letter but comes from official Home Office statements. And besides, ANY letter from the Home Office is an official one, as they can be sued if they give out false info, and you would have a case against them. 

Having read all the links myself, I would with no hesitation and with full confidence submit my old test results if I were you. 

But here's a way of looking at this that may help your assurance level some more. Why would the authorities have a 2 year requirement for first time visa applicants and not for those who have already submitted their results once before who are seeking ILRs or naturalisation?

Logically it's because new entrants could have taken their test and then gone to live in the South Pole (or somewhere) and never spoken another word of English for years, and so be out of practise, especially if they just scraped a pass. But that isn't the case for those going for an ILR or naturalisation. The requirement that they must reside a minimum number of years in the UK (i.e. an English speaking environment) in itself exempts them. 

Also, it looks to me like these expiry dates are set bv the testing authorities themselves, not the Home Office. Because the 2 year requirement doesn't apply to all English tests. For example ESOL EST (which is also accepted for KOLL purposes) has no expiry date at all. It looks like the Home Office has no choice but to defer to the testing authorities, UNTIL the Home Office has at least one set of your IELTS results in its own files, and can make those validity assessments for itself. 

Or put another way, once your IELTS test results for a single test are registered with the Home Office, setting the validity period now comes under their own jurisdiction, so to speak, and they now have sufficient direct evidence of their own on which to make their own judgement about how long the test results can be deemed valid. 

By that time, you will have been in Britain (and hence in an English speaking environment) for several years, because your visa conditions specify that you must be to qualify for ILR or naturalisation. So you're effectively a Brit or almost a Brit, and Brits are exempt from English language tests (remember the exception list?). 

Seeing it that way, even if the Home Office DIDN'T send out letters and factsheets etc, stating (clearly, to my mind) that cases like yous are indeed exempt from having to sit an English Language test a second time, you would have a strong basis on which to protest quite vehemently.

And, honey, your English is FANTASTIC. Don't worry, the Home Office already knows it.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Yes, the Home Office should be clearer or they should have an official questions/answer part where they post questions people have emailed them and the answers to those questions. Even though I am now around 99% sure I do not need to take the IELTS test again (and two days ago I was 100% certain I need to take it again), I am not 100% sure because it is not stated anywhere clearly and officially. I can't take the printout of someone's letter and a response to that letter as proof that I do not need to take the test again if I get questioned about it when I'm applying for the ILR.
> 
> Hubby dear has read all the links this morning and having studied law, he says that he is certain I do not need to take it again, but he is not an immigration specialist and really knew nothing about immigration law before he met me
> 
> If Joppa or _shel or some other moderator confirmed my expired IELTS test was OK to be used for ILR application, I wouldn't take another one, but this way I just don't know. I'll probably risk it and use the expired IELTS test and take the printouts of the previous official links posted but I am still worried about it, I can't just say that part of my application is finished and I need to move onto the other requirements, like I did with the marriage certificate and other things which were clearer.



You might want to write to the authorities explaining your quandary and stating that you have taken the decision not to sit another IELTS test based on all the links posted here (and cite all the links), so please take this into account. Then if you fail to get the ILR, this can be a central plank of your defense. But heck, this is going to extremes! And one thing to know about Brits is that they are not extreme or indifferent to special cases when it comes to adherence to rules. 

Alternatively, if you have money to burn, sit it a second time and look at this as just a refresher course.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

I really, really don't want to sit it again if I don't have to  I'd have to travel to London and even though I'm 100% certain I'd pass it with no problems, I don't want to go through the stress of having to travel, change ten buses and sit there for hours writing essays like I was back at the uni... At least Life in the UK test had some purpose and was reasonably fun to do (though I think it had too many dates, that's my only complaint). The IELTS test is just soooooo boring and soooo long and not mentally challenging or fun and is expensive and one just feels their life draining away while doing it.

I think I'll do exactly as you suggested and print out the relevant pages to take with me. I may also email NARIC (I haven't decided yet if it's worth the hassle) to try and certify my degree which was taught in English (if I can get someone to send it to me from my home country cause I forgot to bring it with me) just to cover my back. But having read everything a number of times, I am almost certain now that I do not need to sit another IELTS test since, as you said, there is no way my level of English would have gone down while I was living in the UK and the 2 year limitation seems to be irrelevant for the Home Office purposes since it does not apply to all the tests. 

As for the feedback promised to Terpe, I also received some automated response from [email protected] with attached pdf Qualifications fact sheet 3.0.pdf stating that:

3. What if your website says my qualification expires after 2 years? 
The expiry dates on the SELT list in Appendix O, do not apply to citizenship applications. 
For Settlement applications, we will accept Level B1 qualification on the SELT list or an 
ESOL qualification on the OFQUAL register at Entry level 3 that has passed the expiry 
date, if: The qualification has previously been accepted by us in connection with another immigration application, e.g. for entry clearance, or (if it is being presented for the first time) that is was taken in the UK, and is on the OFQUAL register. 

so I'll print out that as well


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> I really, really don't want to sit it again if I don't have to  I'd have to travel to London and even though I'm 100% certain I'd pass it with no problems, I don't want to go through the stress of having to travel, change ten buses and sit there for hours writing essays like I was back at the uni... At least Life in the UK test had some purpose and was reasonably fun to do (though I think it had too many dates, that's my only complaint). The IELTS test is just soooooo boring and soooo long and not mentally challenging or fun and is expensive and one just feels their life draining away while doing it.
> 
> I think I'll do exactly as you suggested and print out the relevant pages to take with me. I may also email NARIC (I haven't decided yet if it's worth the hassle) to try and certify my degree which was taught in English (if I can get someone to send it to me from my home country cause I forgot to bring it with me) just to cover my back. But having read everything a number of times, I am almost certain now that I do not need to sit another IELTS test since, as you said, there is no way my level of English would have gone down while I was living in the UK and the 2 year limitation seems to be irrelevant for the Home Office purposes since it does not apply to all the tests.
> 
> ...



Good decision. It's always best to be safe that sorry, but in this case I'm very sure you're more than safe.  

Your English is faultless by the way, and of a very high level. In fact if you hadn't said you were on a spouse visa, I would have assumed you were British.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Thank you, I'll have to print this out and stuff it under the hubby's nose  He's an editor and I get corrected all the time - articles, prepositions, choice of words and lately, the shocking and unnacceptable increase of American words I use while living in Britain!


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Thank you, I'll have to print this out and stuff it under the hubby's nose  He's an editor and I get corrected all the time - articles, prepositions, choice of words and lately, the shocking and unnacceptable increase of American words I use while living in Britain!



He sounds just like me! I correct my wife all the time and while I'm very particular, I tell her it's for her own good! As you can see in your case, it's an effective strategy.


----------



## ashkevron (May 1, 2012)

Very reluctantly, I'll have to agree. My English was not bad by any means but even I can clearly tell the difference between now and five years ago. The downside is that, these days, when I talk to my friends who live abroad, as soon as I open my mouth, they NEVER fail to take the piss when it comes to my newly acquired British accent...


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

ashkevron said:


> Very reluctantly, I'll have to agree. My English was not bad by any means but even I can clearly tell the difference between now and five years ago. The downside is that, these days, when I talk to my friends who live abroad, as soon as I open my mouth, they NEVER fail to take the piss when it comes to my newly acquired British accent...



Well, that's what husbands are for.


----------



## James50 (Mar 3, 2014)

And someone said this thread was dead? Well, just goes to show. You never can tell.


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

ashkevron said:


> As for the feedback promised to Terpe, I also received some automated response from [email protected] with attached pdf Qualifications fact sheet 3.0.pdf stating that:
> 
> 3. What if your website says my qualification expires after 2 years?
> The expiry dates on the SELT list in Appendix O, do not apply to citizenship applications.
> ...


Crikey, that was quick.
Glad to learn the e-mail still valid.

Thanks for the feedback......much appreciated.


----------



## Terpe (Apr 20, 2013)

James50 said:


> And someone said this thread was dead? Well, just goes to show. You never can tell.


An indication of changes in UK immigration rules


----------



## Marimadil (Aug 1, 2014)

Hi anyone granted ILR using expired IELTS used as evidence to apply for spouse visa previously . Thanks


----------

