# why or why not spain?



## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

hi all, i am new to this spain forum, but i have some questions please. we are currently living in northern virgina, but will be moving to europe within the next year or two, whenever my husband decides he wants to stop working. 
our adult daughter will be moving with us and she will work if possible or not work if that is what is required. she would like to teach english and my understanding is that spain has a program where native english speakers are taught to be teachers in spain.
our daughter and i would like to live in spain or on mallorca. we are originally from california where spanish language classes were required in all schools, we have traveled to many hispanic speaking countries on vacation and are able to understand and converse in what i call tourist spanish. i feel the ability to speak the language fluently will come back to us quicker than trying to learn another language such as french, italian, or croation for example. 
we have done a lot of research into tax programs for retired americans in europe and it seems that italy has the best program, france is also good, but spain does not seem to offer a competitive low tax program for american retirees.
what we would have for income is a large social security check, a $450 monthly pension, and whatever money, if any, we take from our investments (stocks, mutual funds, bonds) on an as needed basis. we know we can live on our social security and pension and have some leftover each month. for large expenses and some travel, we would need to withdraw earnings from our investments. 
can someone explain the basic taxes on the income resources i have listed? is there a site or sites where this info is plainly laid out? is there a financial advisor or company that could give us this info at a low cost? of course, i would prefer to hear from others as there would be no cost, and then confirm with a specialist that the info is correct. 
oh, and is there an exchange program for american drivers licenses or will we need to attend a driving school , pass a written and driving test, all in spanish? 
of course there are many other reasons why we like spain including the people, the food, siestas and late late dining, the ocean and beaches, the countyside, the possibility that our daughter could teach there, and the quality of life we could have there.
we lived in very small villages in germany for 4 years when my husband was an advisor to the military. we are aware of how life is slower, it takes more time to get things accomplished, stores close in the middle of the day, there is not a big selection when you want things, some things can be more expensive, and no one is in a hurry. for us, that just means life is simpler.
if you have anything to add about why you love spain or why some things there bother you, i would also love to hear from you. thank you and please respond, deb


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

If neither of you have a passport from an EU/EEA country or Switzerland, you will need a suitable visa to live in Spain. If neither you nor your husband want to and need to work, there is non-lucrative visa, for which the financial requirement is having a passive, non-employment income (such as pensions, investments etc) which is equivalent to 4x the current IPREM - which is Spanish minimum income, set for 2022 at 4 x 6,948.24 = 27,792.96 euro per year, plus 1x IPREM for a partner. Your adult daughter, unless she is fully dependent on you because of disability etc, will have to qualify for a visa in her own right. I know nothing about such a scheme for native English speakers - there are great many such people living in Spain, mainly British nationals who have been living before Brexit and Irish nationals, who are EU citizens - they have complete freedom to work with no visa or permit. So her choice is to be sponsored for a work visa by a language school (very difficult as any job vacancy must first be offered to EU citizens and others with the right to work), or become self-employed - but again it will be very tough to be approved because of crowded job market. For her non-lucrative visa, she needs 4 x IPREM for a year - she cannot be included as a dependant. 
As for income tax, it's progressive and ranges from 19% to 45%. There is a small tax allowance of 5,550 euro. There is a handy tax calculator at TaxLeak - Spain Tax Calculator 
There is no exchange programme in Spain for US driver's licence (from any State), so after 90 days, you will have to pass Spanish driving test to continue driving.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

There definitely are programs for English native support in bilingual schools in Madrid, my son goes to a secondary school which is "bilingual" and the classes which are taught in English have at least one native support assistant. How that works I cannot say because I have never looked into it, but I do know that theya re not permanent positions, they rotate, being filled by different people every year.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Overandout said:


> There definitely are programs for English native support in bilingual schools in Madrid, my son goes to a secondary school which is "bilingual" and the classes which are taught in English have at least one native support assistant. How that works I cannot say because I have never looked into it, but I do know that they are not permanent positions, they rotate, being filled by different people every year.


Yes, foreign language assistant. It's a part-time position, and the length of stay is one academic year (roughly Oct to May, though sometimes renewable). Jeremy Hunt, current Chancellor of the Exchequer, was one in Japan after graduating from Oxford. *It's only available to holders of EU or British passport. *
Teach English as a Language Assistant in Spain | British Council


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I know I have met young Americans working in Spanish schools as language assistants, here for one year. Possibly through this programme:-

North American Language and Culture Assistants Program NALCAP - Estados Unidos | Ministerio de Educación y Formación Profesional (educacionyfp.gob.es)


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Joppa said:


> Yes, foreign language assistant. It's a part-time position, and the length of stay is one academic year (roughly Oct to May, though sometimes renewable). Jeremy Hunt, current Chancellor of the Exchequer, was one in Japan after graduating from Oxford. *It's only available to holders of EU or British passport. *
> Teach English as a Language Assistant in Spain | British Council


That link is to the British Council who run private exclusive schools around the world. They are not bilingual, the full curriculum is UK based and in English.
I was referring to the public state schools in Madrid's bilingual program. I can assure you that those positions are open to non-EU nationals.


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## 1kaipa (Jul 20, 2019)

I have seen this before. It is strange as you actually get paid more than a regular private teacher in a language school for only 16 hours.You don't even have to mark papers or prepare classes!!! You don't need to be qualified either. You do have to speak Spanish though. My son had one in his English class a few years ago. Great if you can get it


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Joppa said:


> As for income tax, it's progressive and ranges from 19% to 45%. There is a small tax allowance of 5,550 euro. There is a handy tax calculator at TaxLeak - Spain Tax Calculator


If the OP and/or spouse are 65 or over, the basic personal allowance is €6,700. Whether 65 or not, there is also the general expenses allowance of €2,000 against earned income (and pensions) which everyone is entitled to,

I remember reading in earlier threads that US social security income is not taxable in Spain (due to the double taxation treaty between the USA and Spain).


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I think the biggest obstacle you face is with your daughter. It's highly unlikely that she would be able to get a visa to work in Spain. She would have to first find a job here, and then her Spanish employer would have to sponsor her for a work visa. These visas are only granted if there are no workers from the EU who can fill the job. That usually means the jobs are highly specialized in areas such advanced scientific research. The job option that you mentioned for her - being a language assistant - is available for people from the US. But you have to apply many months ahead of time (there's rolling admission starting in January), it only pays a small stipend - less than 1000€/month, and only allows for the language assistant to get temporary residency for the duration of the program. Also, the program isn't designed to train ESL teachers. Its goal is to bring "cultural ambassadors" from English speaking countries into Spanish classrooms. Anyone who gets a spot on a program is sent to a random place in Spain - you don't get to chose where. You can request a specific area but there's no guarantee that it will be granted. So I'm not sure that this would work out in your case. 

As for your questions about taxes, the only valid advice is that you should consult a professional. But I can say that once you become tax resident in Spain you will have to file a tax return here and declare your worldwide income. There is a double tax treaty so that you don't pay the same tax twice. But Spain taxes at a higher rate than the US so you would have to pay Spain the difference.

There is no arrangement in place to exchange a US license for a Spanish one. You can drive here using your US license for the first 6 months of your residency, but after that you have to have gotten your Spanish license. You have to start from zero, just like a new driver, and do the written and road test. The written test is available in English but everyone says the translation is terrible and makes it very confusing. The on-the-road test has to be done in Spanish, and through a driving school. 

Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Joppa said:


> If neither of you have a passport from an EU/EEA country or Switzerland, you will need a suitable visa to live in Spain. If neither you nor your husband want to and need to work, there is non-lucrative visa, for which the financial requirement is having a passive, non-employment income (such as pensions, investments etc) which is equivalent to 4x the current IPREM - which is Spanish minimum income, set for 2022 at 4 x 6,948.24 = 27,792.96 euro per year, plus 1x IPREM for a partner. Your adult daughter, unless she is fully dependent on you because of disability etc, will have to qualify for a visa in her own right. I know nothing about such a scheme for native English speakers - there are great many such people living in Spain, mainly British nationals who have been living before Brexit and Irish nationals, who are EU citizens - they have complete freedom to work with no visa or permit. So her choice is to be sponsored for a work visa by a language school (very difficult as any job vacancy must first be offered to EU citizens and others with the right to work), or become self-employed - but again it will be very tough to be approved because of crowded job market. For her non-lucrative visa, she needs 4 x IPREM for a year - she cannot be included as a dependant.
> As for income tax, it's progressive and ranges from 19% to 45%. There is a small tax allowance of 5,550 euro. There is a handy tax calculator at TaxLeak - Spain Tax Calculator
> There is no exchange programme in Spain for US driver's licence (from any State), so after 90 days, you will have to pass Spanish driving test to continue driving.
> 
> ...


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Overandout said:


> There definitely are programs for English native support in bilingual schools in Madrid, my son goes to a secondary school which is "bilingual" and the classes which are taught in English have at least one native support assistant. How that works I cannot say because I have never looked into it, but I do know that theya re not permanent positions, they rotate, being filled by different people every year.


hello overandout. thank you for the info, we will have to check into the details if she decides she wants to work. iit might not be for her as she would want to live with us and not on her own in various locations. deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Joppa said:


> Yes, foreign language assistant. It's a part-time position, and the length of stay is one academic year (roughly Oct to May, though sometimes renewable). Jeremy Hunt, current Chancellor of the Exchequer, was one in Japan after graduating from Oxford. *It's only available to holders of EU or British passport. *
> Teach English as a Language Assistant in Spain | British Council


hi again. part time would be great for her, but she would live with us and only want to commute to nearby towns. the show i saw with the american is a couple of years old, perhaps it has been discontinued. deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Lynn R said:


> I know I have met young Americans working in Spanish schools as language assistants, here for one year. Possibly through this programme:-
> 
> North American Language and Culture Assistants Program NALCAP - Estados Unidos | Ministerio de Educación y Formación Profesional (educacionyfp.gob.es)


thank you lynn, we will look into that, but if it does not work out, she could become our dependent again. deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Overandout said:


> That link is to the British Council who run private exclusive schools around the world. They are not bilingual, the full curriculum is UK based and in English.
> I was referring to the public state schools in Madrid's bilingual program. I can assure you that those positions are open to non-EU nationals.


overandout, thank you, that is very helpful. she is tesl certified and has a college degree, but does not have a teaching credential. the cost of a teaching credential is cost prohibitive here so perhaps she could come to spain as a student and study for a teaching degree there. she wouldn't need to work if she chose not to. deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

1kaipa said:


> I have seen this before. It is strange as you actually get paid more than a regular private teacher in a language school for only 16 hours.You don't even have to mark papers or prepare classes!!! You don't need to be qualified either. You do have to speak Spanish though. My son had one in his English class a few years ago. Great if you can get it





1kaipa said:


> I have seen this before. It is strange as you actually get paid more than a regular private teacher in a language school for only 16 hours.You don't even have to mark papers or prepare classes!!! You don't need to be qualified either. You do have to speak Spanish though. My son had one in his English class a few years ago. Great if you can get it


1kaipa, thank you for the encouraging information, deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

Lynn R said:


> If the OP and/or spouse are 65 or over, the basic personal allowance is €6,700. Whether 65 or not, there is also the general expenses allowance of €2,000 against earned income (and pensions) which everyone is entitled to,
> 
> I remember reading in earlier threads that US social security income is not taxable in Spain (due to the double taxation treaty between the USA and Spain).


hi lynn, yes, we are both 65 this year. we have been focusing on italy and france (my husband's preferences for retirement) but my daughter and i feel that spain would be a better fit for us. i just have not taken the time or effort to thoroughly research the taxes in spain that would apply to us. if they have the taxation treaty and social security is not taxable, that would be wonderful and his small pension is not enough to worry about. i wonder if investment income brought in from the u.s. would be taxed at a special rate? i know it is in italy. obviously i need to do more research, but i was hoping to get some basic answers here, so thank you, deb


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

kalohi said:


> I think the biggest obstacle you face is with your daughter. It's highly unlikely that she would be able to get a visa to work in Spain. She would have to first find a job here, and then her Spanish employer would have to sponsor her for a work visa. These visas are only granted if there are no workers from the EU who can fill the job. That usually means the jobs are highly specialized in areas such advanced scientific research. The job option that you mentioned for her - being a language assistant - is available for people from the US. But you have to apply many months ahead of time (there's rolling admission starting in January), it only pays a small stipend - less than 1000€/month, and only allows for the language assistant to get temporary residency for the duration of the program. Also, the program isn't designed to train ESL teachers. Its goal is to bring "cultural ambassadors" from English speaking countries into Spanish classrooms. Anyone who gets a spot on a program is sent to a random place in Spain - you don't get to chose where. You can request a specific area but there's no guarantee that it will be granted. So I'm not sure that this would work out in your case.
> 
> As for your questions about taxes, the only valid advice is that you should consult a professional. But I can say that once you become tax resident in Spain you will have to file a tax return here and declare your worldwide income. There is a double tax treaty so that you don't pay the same tax twice. But Spain taxes at a higher rate than the US so you would have to pay Spain the difference.
> 
> ...


hello kalohi, she is tesl certified has done some teaching here in virginia. applying ahead of time and a small stipend would not be an issue for her. the fact that it is temporary and does not get her a long stay visa would be the problem. 
declaring our worldwide income with the tax treaty and then paying the extra spanish tax on top of our u.s. tax is the part i am worrying about. that could be the thing that makes spain too expensive for us compared to some other european countries. we do not want to avoid taxes in spain, we just do not want to pay so much more than we do now. my daughter also would not want to take a job from a local person. 
i think in 6 months we could hopefully pass the written and driving tests. if not, hopefully at least one of us would pass and the others could keep working on it. if we decide on spain we would start refreshing our spanish. maybe doing something like only being allowed to speak spanish at home on certain days and definitely studying.
i would like to get as much free tax information as i can before we consult a tax attorney. thank you for your advice. deb


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## srendipitymad (6 mo ago)

tout va bien said:


> hi lynn, yes, we are both 65 this year. we have been focusing on italy and france (my husband's preferences for retirement) but my daughter and i feel that spain would be a better fit for us. i just have not taken the time or effort to thoroughly research the taxes in spain that would apply to us. if they have the taxation treaty and social security is not taxable, that would be wonderful and his small pension is not enough to worry about. i wonder if investment income brought in from the u.s. would be taxed at a special rate? i know it is in italy. obviously i need to do more research, but i was hoping to get some basic answers here, so thank you, deb


 Your social security pension will be taxed as far as I am aware. Spain taxes worldwide income but you can get a Foreign Tax Credit for those taxes when you file your US income tax. The tax treaty in regard to SS benefits has to do with a totalization agreement between Spain and the US to give access to pensions. It has nothing to do with the taxation of the pension itself. BTW your social security pension is also taxable in the US depending on the amount, etc. Capital gains from US investments are also taxed in Spain.


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

srendipitymad said:


> Your social security pension will be taxed as far as I am aware. Spain taxes worldwide income but you can get a Foreign Tax Credit for those taxes when you file your US income tax. The tax treaty in regard to SS benefits has to do with a totalization agreement between Spain and the US to give access to pensions. It has nothing to do with the taxation of the pension itself. BTW your social security pension is also taxable in the US depending on the amount, etc. Capital gains from US investments are also taxed in Spain.


thank you for the information. yes, i know we might have to pay u.s. taxes on our monthly social security and pension checks. this is what i am trying to understand as an example---our combined ss and pension is 60,000 a year. we believe we will be paying in the 10% range to the u.s. government, but the spainish tax for 60,000 is 23%, so would we pay the additional 13% for spanish taxes? for capital gains i think we would need to add it to the u.s. tax we pay, but would we also pay the additional 26% capital gains tax once the money is in spain? 
maybe it is more clear than i realize and i am reading too much into the facts. deb


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

tout va bien said:


> ...our combined ss and pension is 60,000 a year. we believe we will be paying in the 10% range to the u.s. government, but the spainish tax for 60,000 is 23%, so would we pay the additional 13% for spanish taxes?...


Yes, that's basically how it works. However, I'm not sure where you got the figure of 23% tax in Spain. You should know that an income of 60,000€ pays much more than that. It's taxed in increasing increments: the first 0 to 12,450€ pays 19%; the next 12,451€ to 20,200€ pays 24%; then 20,201€ to 35,200€ pays 30%; 35,201€ to 60,000€ pays 37%; 60,001€ to 300,000€ pays 45%. 

Capital gains tax works in a similar way, although it has its own tax scale that ranges from 19%-23%. If you time when you get residency in Spain so that you aren't tax resident in Spain the year that you sell your house, then you can avoid having to pay capital gains tax in Spain.

To get totally accurate advice that applies to your specific situation you need to consult a tax specialist!!


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## tout va bien (Aug 13, 2021)

kalohi said:


> Yes, that's basically how it works. However, I'm not sure where you got the figure of 23% tax in Spain. You should know that an income of 60,000€ pays much more than that. It's taxed in increasing increments: the first 0 to 12,450€ pays 19%; the next 12,451€ to 20,200€ pays 24%; then 20,201€ to 35,200€ pays 30%; 35,201€ to 60,000€ pays 37%; 60,001€ to 300,000€ pays 45%.
> 
> Capital gains tax works in a similar way, although it has its own tax scale that ranges from 19%-23%. If you time when you get residency in Spain so that you aren't tax resident in Spain the year that you sell your house, then you can avoid having to pay capital gains tax in Spain.
> 
> To get totally accurate advice that applies to your specific situation you need to consult a tax specialist!!



oops, i was looking at this---spanish tax on interest, dividends, capital gains made on the sale or transfer of assets. i am recovering very slowly from a serious head wound and concussion and i looked at the wrong information. unfortunately you are correct about the taxes being higher  this is terrible news to me. so if we pay 10-12% tax to the u.s. and then we must make up the difference between the 37 or 45% spanish tax, that is a lot of tax to us on a limited income. also i believe our u.s. capital gains tax would be 0 or 15% depending on how much we make on our investments. that is also a huge difference to us. if we had to pay all that tax to spain, i am not sure we would have enough left over to live comfortably and support our daughter, whose tramatic brain injury limits her ability to work full days. 
i understand spanish people must pay these taxes and if we live there it seems fair that we should pay some taxes too. as i said above, with a limited income due to my husband retiring, i do not know how we could live comfortably on the money that would be left after spanish taxes. the spanish tax rates could take our spendable income down to about 2600 a month. we could not live on that, not for the 3 of us. 
how do other retirees from non eu countries do it? we live on a farm in northern virginia where we raise icelandic sheep and dwarf nigerian goats. my husband and daughter do have jobs off the farm. we live simply, but are comfortable. we would like to move to spain, but we do not want a drastic downgrade in our lifestyle due to finances.
yes, we must contact a tax specialist. 
of course, if our social security and pension income are not taxable by spain, then that would make all the difference. thank you for responding and pointing out my mistake. deb


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