# Small Investors in Spain



## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

I would like to contact any investors who live in Spain simply to 'chew the fat' about companies on their way up and on the way down. 
I am not selling anything and I do not want anything sold to me. 
I just feel investing is quite a lonely business and it would be quite pleasant to exchange views and research, once in a while, with like minded folk.
I used to have a close friend some years ago who had worked in the city in the good old days and we used to really enjoy chatting about times past, present and, the most difficult, the future. 
I am not sure it did our investments much good but it was good fun. Unfortunately he passed away and I really miss our chats. I don't know what he would have made of recent events.

Happy Hunting

Brian


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bmilner said:


> I would like to contact any investors who live in Spain simply to 'chew the fat' about companies on their way up and on the way down.
> I am not selling anything and I do not want anything sold to me.
> I just feel investing is quite a lonely business and it would be quite pleasant to exchange views and research, once in a while, with like minded folk.
> I used to have a close friend some years ago who had worked in the city in the good old days and we used to really enjoy chatting about times past, present and, the most difficult, the future.
> ...


Well, I have seen adverts for clairvoyants I'm not sure they are noted for their foresight on matters economic but in this climate...
This cannot be a good time to invest in Spain.
Not that it is in the UK, alas....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I have seen adverts for clairvoyants I'm not sure they are noted for their foresight on matters economic but in this climate...
> This cannot be a good time to invest in Spain.
> Not that it is in the UK, alas....



I think now is a good time to invest in Spain! It would boost the economy and bring some optimism back!!! The clever thing is where to invest and what!???
Jo xxx


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I have seen adverts for clairvoyants I'm not sure they are noted for their foresight on matters economic but in this climate...
> This cannot be a good time to invest in Spain.
> Not that it is in the UK, alas....


Thank you for your reply and interest. 
My main area of investment is in the UK with a smaller amount in the US due to the good liquidity of stocks and reasonable dealing costs. 
It has been quite a good time in the UK since March with doublers and treblers not that difficult to find. You just needed a little courage to go where others feared to tread. 
My main fault has been selling prematurely thinking that we were in for a 1987 at any time. 
It is where we go from here that is the big question. It's the one I keep asking myself these days. The people who you would think should know seem to disagree. 
I don't who pays all these guys but almost every time I have dealt on an advisory basis I have lost. I do much better on my own. 
I've tried derivatives and spreadbetting over the years without much success. Probably too emotional at times.

Here's to all share shovellers

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

jojo said:


> I think now is a good time to invest in Spain! It would boost the economy and bring some optimism back!!! The clever thing is where to invest and what!???
> Jo xxx


Thanks Jo for your reply.
I wouldn't know where to start with an investment in Spain to suit a jubilado. Perhaps there are some bonds or similar instruments with a fixed yield. From what I have read, the banks in Spain have there own accounting methods which are not exactly transparent.
I have some investments in the UK with reasonable income until you bring the cash over here. It's difficult to get your mind out of the sterling and/or dollar theme when it is what you have worked with all your life.

Best wishes

Brian


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I think now is a good time to invest in Spain! It would boost the economy and bring some optimism back!!! The clever thing is where to invest and what!???
> Jo xxx



Yes, undoubtedly good for the Spanish economy. But the return we are getting on reasonably substantial UK investments -not £millions though!-is so low that unless you are prepared to spend big time and absorb and discount risk it's better to do other things with any spare cash, especially if you are retired.
The Spanish economy could be heading for full-blown depression, never mind recession.
Spain's problems are currently beyond saving by investment on anything other than a major Keynsian demand boosting package and the Government has made a start with Plan E schemes. As I've said before, the impact of the collapse of the construction industry has left banks with depreciated assets held against huge loans.
Pay has hugely outstripped productivity in many sectors and the employment structure is rigid and not suited to the demands of a flexible rapidly-changing market.
And to cap it all, there is a very small venture capital market. Spaniards seem very risk adverse.
Now that could be a good sector in which to invest if you can play the long game....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bmilner said:


> It is where we go from here that is the big question. It's the one I keep asking myself these days. The people who you would think should know seem to disagree.
> 
> Brian



That has been true since the dawn of capitalism... Economics should be regarded as an art, not a science.


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

bmilner said:


> I would like to contact any investors who live in Spain simply to 'chew the fat' about companies on their way up and on the way down.
> I am not selling anything and I do not want anything sold to me.
> I just feel investing is quite a lonely business and it would be quite pleasant to exchange views and research, once in a while, with like minded folk.
> I used to have a close friend some years ago who had worked in the city in the good old days and we used to really enjoy chatting about times past, present and, the most difficult, the future.
> ...


Hi Brian,

Glad to hear of a fellow small time investor on the Costa. I must admit though, that it is harder to concentrate on it here as I'm not so keen to sit and do the research on the computer when the weather is so gorgeous! Good luck with your investments- its been a good year as you say since March.


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

lynn said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Glad to hear of a fellow small time investor on the Costa. I must admit though, that it is harder to concentrate on it here as I'm not so keen to sit and do the research on the computer when the weather is so gorgeous! Good luck with your investments- its been a good year as you say since March.


Hi Lynn

Nice to hear from you, fellow share shifter. I take your point about the distractions here e.g. sun, friends, food and Rioja. 
I think sometimes it is better to forget your portfolio for a while or I find that you can be tempted to overtrade. 
I have just read a book published in 1987 (don't know if it was before or after the crash) called 'How The Best Laid Investment Plans Usually Go Wrong'. It says that you should define yourself as an investor and/or speculator. It says you split your money between a base portfolio that you basically buy and forget and speculative investments. It does seem a good idea and I'm just getting my head round it. The investor part sounds a bit boring to me but probably is a necessary part of the game. 
I would really like to hear what you view is of the immediate future as the markets seem a bit frothy and uncertain at the moment. I bought XUKS the other day to hedge my bets, just in case !!:juggle:

Keep counting (the profits, I hope)

Brian


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

Hi Brian,

Well, I as we were relocating here to Spain at the beginning of the summer, I thought it prudent to move into defensive stocks to tide through September (traditionally a poor month) only to be pleasantly surprised at what was a good month. I have put a proportion too into bonds over the past few months which have paid a decent return and can be 'forgotton about' (ish!). I like you concentrate on British stocks primarily, but have some funds in emerging markets. My China fund has been fantastic this year. The market is indeed frothy at the moment, but if I think back, I felt just as uncertain right through the last 6 months or so and it turned out to be a good period of investment. My OH is looking into the 'dogs of the DOW' as its October and now is the time to pick them. Have you ever invested in them? Not my thing as I tend to be a bit more conservative, but he is the speculative half of the team!


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

bmilner said:


> Hi Lynn
> 
> I think sometimes it is better to forget your portfolio for a while or I find that you can be tempted to overtrade.
> Brian


Hi Brian,
From Jan 2007 to March 2009, what is your definition of "a while" ?

Xose
P.S. Ever gone down to the beach for the day and on your return found all your stops had triggered?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> Hi Brian,
> From Jan 2007 to March 2009, what is your definition of "a while" ?
> 
> Xose


I'm not sure its a good time to just leave investments, cos of the poor returns with banks etc, there is a surge of small investors flooding the market and doing great things!!

Jo xxx


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

lynn said:


> Hi Brian,
> 
> Well, I as we were relocating here to Spain at the beginning of the summer, I thought it prudent to move into defensive stocks to tide through September (traditionally a poor month) only to be pleasantly surprised at what was a good month. I have put a proportion too into bonds over the past few months which have paid a decent return and can be 'forgotton about' (ish!). I like you concentrate on British stocks primarily, but have some funds in emerging markets. My China fund has been fantastic this year. The market is indeed frothy at the moment, but if I think back, I felt just as uncertain right through the last 6 months or so and it turned out to be a good period of investment. My OH is looking into the 'dogs of the DOW' as its October and now is the time to pick them. Have you ever invested in them? Not my thing as I tend to be a bit more conservative, but he is the speculative half of the team!


Dollarwise I bought and sold PFE (at a $400 loss). I still have CNI, FSLR, MKL (my personal dog) and PST (waiting for the tbill drop) which have been a fair performers. Re the official dogs, the yields look good. I was in and out of VZ Jul08 to Aug08 (small loss) I've thought about BAC as I made a fair profit on C. in 2008 (good job I didn't keep em). All this talk of double dip is a bit worrying though. I have been in the very high yielding paid monthly EOS, FAX and IGR for quite some time and they give consistant high income but EOS value has dropped somewhat over the year. I am still in negative territory overall on the USD stocks. Not as bad as some of the funds though. I wish your OH the best of luck. Just bought DPLM (UK stock) as a long term. :ranger:


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

Xose said:


> Hi Brian,
> From Jan 2007 to March 2009, what is your definition of "a while" ?
> 
> Xose
> P.S. Ever gone down to the beach for the day and on your return found all your stops had triggered?


Hi Xose

Sure have. In fact spikes have been the bane of my life at times. It's really frustrating to see the graph go into good profit after leaving you behind with one of those b****y spikes. I have wondered whether rather than instruments of the devil they may be instruments of the trading platform. I was thinking of the normal less voltatile company stocks when I referred to forgetting them for a while. I have sometimes been watching in real time and seen some stocks declining before my eyes to the point of not being able to stand it anymore and have closed the position only to see them then climb back again. Very annoying (putting it mildly). One time I was switching brokers to be told that they would charge me £15 a stock. The market was falling so, being the smarty pants, I sold with the intention of rebuying only to find that most of the stocks immediately climbed and I lost out big time (not so smart).
Another entertaining moment (not) was watching RBS, when I had gone long on a CFD, fall to unbelievable levels. Why didn't I buy a boot full at 10p (don't answer that). Sometimes you tend to think that you are the only one suffering from these cockups. I went to a seminar about a year ago and it did me the world of good to find that I definitely was not the only one. 
Why do we do it ?? I guess it's the ones like CIU I bought at 75p and off it went, very satisfying.

Good Fishing

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

jojo said:


> I'm not sure its a good time to just leave investments, cos of the poor returns with banks etc, there is a surge of small investors flooding the market and doing great things!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo

Well I built a portfolio in March - April 2008 after the first drop just in time for the second drop. Quite a few hit my stop loss and I didn't have the courage to go back and get them at the lower levels and so missed out on what would have been some very good profits from my original purchase levels at todays level. This is where the lonely thing sets in. It would have been nice to chat to some other parties at the same dance. 

Brian


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And what is the definition of a 'small' investor?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> And what is the definition of a 'small' investor?


I take it to mean someone who is playing with their savings? I do a bit, but TBH, I dont have the time or the drive (or the "spare" money) to really "steam in there" and take risks or speculate to seriously!


Maybe I'm not even a "small" investor - I'm a "teeny, tiny" one!!!


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I take it to mean someone who is playing with their savings? I do a bit, but TBH, I dont have the time or the drive (or the "spare" money) to really "steam in there" and take risks or speculate to seriously!
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm not even a "small" investor - I'm a "teeny, tiny" one!!!
> ...


It takes a lot of knowledge, time and energy to play with stocks, shares etc. and I don't have the inclination. Not my kind of hobby, especially in the summer heat, as somebody said earlier.
We pay -hugely- for the privilege of having someone else do the donkey work.
The maxim is 'Don't gamble what you can't afford to lose'. True for all kinds of investors.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> It takes a lot of knowledge, time and energy to play with stocks, shares etc. and I don't have the inclination. Not my kind of hobby, especially in the summer heat, as somebody said earlier.
> We pay -hugely- for the privilege of having someone else do the donkey work.
> The maxim is 'Don't gamble what you can't afford to lose'. True for all kinds of investors.


Yes, your last sentence is what I meant when I said I had no spare money. Most of my money is tied up in property in the UK and there it will sit, good or bad, altho rumour has it the market over there is picking up???? But as I say, I do have a little play with stocks and shares, but I dont do it to make serious money - just as well LOL.


Jo xxx


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> It takes a lot of knowledge, time and energy to play with stocks, shares etc. and I don't have the inclination. Not my kind of hobby, especially in the summer heat, as somebody said earlier.
> We pay -hugely- for the privilege of having someone else do the donkey work.
> The maxim is 'Don't gamble what you can't afford to lose'. True for all kinds of investors.


What many people hadn't realised was that investing in property was a gamble, but they presumed there was no risk. Of course, when the market turns in property, people don't generally have a 'stop loss' in their minds, and may find it impossible to close out if they do!  It has caught out so many people, especially here in Spain.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

lynn said:


> What many people hadn't realised was that investing in property was a gamble, but they presumed there was no risk. Of course, when the market turns in property, people don't generally have a 'stop loss' in their minds, and may find it impossible to close out if they do!  It has caught out so many people, especially here in Spain.


I dident buy my property as an investment. I have my hom in the UK that was my home and my daughters live in it and another place that I inherited. But property has always been the "bread and butter" long term investment opportunity for most people, cos they do them up, live in them and then trade them for something bigger, better??!. I know in days gone by there was the fast turn over when the market was bouyant, but as you say in this day and age its a gamble

Jo xxx


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> And what is the definition of a 'small' investor?


Hi mrypg9

I guess it _could_ be somone around 1.50 mtrs tall who invests or, as I meant it, someone who enjoys investing and speculating on the market and does not belong to the high net worth group of folk. I find it very interesting taking a view on the type of business you are looking at i.e. what the future may or may not hold and then checking the past performance, cash or debt, dividend history (if they are paying one) etc etc. 
I think that whatever happens it's nice to back your own judgement and have fun. 
During my career in the UK starting at 17, I had very many businesses, most of which failed, but by cutting my losses and having three or four that worked very well, I made it through. 
I just remember the fun times and many laughs that I have had with my working partners. I really miss that.

Have a great day

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

jojo said:


> I take it to mean someone who is playing with their savings? I do a bit, but TBH, I dont have the time or the drive (or the "spare" money) to really "steam in there" and take risks or speculate to seriously!
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm not even a "small" investor - I'm a "teeny, tiny" one!!!
> ...


Hi Jo

I think you have to do what you are comfortable doing. It has to be fun. 
I was caught out in 1992 when we had the ERM crisis. I was writing FTSE options and thought that the good times which I had enjoyed over the previous 18 months would never end. They did and consequently I have the date September 2nd 1992 engraved on my psyche (wherever that is, it certainly hurts). That definitely was not fun. 
It was my 'annus horribilis' for many reasons this being just one. 
My dear friend was even worse off as it actually changed his lifestyle. This I will never do again. 
I reckon you can have as much fun being a "teeny, tiny" one as anyone else.

Have a nice "teeny, tiny" day

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

lynn said:


> What many people hadn't realised was that investing in property was a gamble, but they presumed there was no risk. Of course, when the market turns in property, people don't generally have a 'stop loss' in their minds, and may find it impossible to close out if they do!  It has caught out so many people, especially here in Spain.


Hi Lynn

We have been here 22 years and have seen about three ups and downs and, as you say, many people profit or lose out each time. Our son has a lovely house in Jimena which he bought about 4 years ago and spent a lot of money on. His father-in-law became seriously ill and our daughter-in-law felt she had to go back to the UK to support her mum. They then had a baby over there and are now desperately trying to sell in Spain to buy in the UK. 
Some people through the ages have been very foolish though and I saw it way back in 1970 when I bought an apartment in Torremolinos with a friend. I saw with my own eyes people handing cash deposits over to complete strangers with not so much as a receipt. They were thinking that they would be able to avoid the dollar pool which used to cost 50% on top of the property purchase. That is what I call reckless.

Have a nice day

Brian


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bmilner said:


> Hi mrypg9
> 
> I guess it _could_ be somone around 1.50 mtrs tall who invests or, as I meant it, someone who enjoys investing and speculating on the market and does not belong to the high net worth group of folk. I find it very interesting taking a view on the type of business you are looking at i.e. what the future may or may not hold and then checking the past performance, cash or debt, dividend history (if they are paying one) etc etc.
> I think that whatever happens it's nice to back your own judgement and have fun.
> ...


We had one business which didn't fail but didn't seem like a bundle of laughs, looking back.
I gave my views as to the delights of being a business owner on another thread so won't bore everyone by going over them again....
I am exceedingly risk-averse so would never be happy or successful as an 'active' investor. 
But being prudent has enabled a lifestyle which suits me and is most enjoyable.
I think I'm about 1 metre 60 something tall so I suppose I'm a medium-sized investor...
Have a great day too - where's the sun, though? Got all set for a day lounging by the pool (reading 'The Economist') and it's gone all cloudy on me..


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

bmilner said:


> Hi Lynn
> 
> We have been here 22 years and have seen about three ups and downs and, as you say, many people profit or lose out each time. Our son has a lovely house in Jimena which he bought about 4 years ago and spent a lot of money on. His father-in-law became seriously ill and our daughter-in-law felt she had to go back to the UK to support her mum. They then had a baby over there and are now desperately trying to sell in Spain to buy in the UK.
> 
> ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ah, now the exchange rate!! The money market! Thats an interesting game

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

lynn said:


> What many people hadn't realised was that investing in property was a gamble, but they presumed there was no risk. Of course, when the market turns in property, people don't generally have a 'stop loss' in their minds, and may find it impossible to close out if they do!  It has caught out so many people, especially here in Spain.


Anyone who didn't associate 'gamble' with 'risk' deserved to get burnt, IMHO. Sometimes greed stops brain function. I know people who bought several on-plan properties in Spain who now find they are committed to paying for hugely over-valued 'assets' they will probably not be able to sell for a decade, if ever. Also friends who indulged in a buying spree of buy-to-rent properties with fixed higher-rate mortgages who now find themselves with devalued assets and a sharp fall in renters as they relied on EU immigrant workers for clients. 
These are professional people, not stupid but whose common-sense was smothered by the lure of a fast buck.
We bought a small number of properties to rent, in the UK and Canada and sold at a modest profit. Had we held on a few more years we would be drinking Roederer Cristal instead of Cava! 
But it works both ways. We sold a business jand properties just before the crunch. Luck not judgment.
All you can be sure of in our capitalist system is that boom and bust, bear and bull markets, are an integral feature. 
And if something seems to good to be true, it generally is...


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

jojo said:


> I dident buy my property as an investment. I have my hom in the UK that was my home and my daughters live in it and another place that I inherited. But property has always been the "bread and butter" long term investment opportunity for most people, cos they do them up, live in them and then trade them for something bigger, better??!. I know in days gone by there was the fast turn over when the market was bouyant, but as you say in this day and age its a gamble
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo

The attraction of flipping houses in the UK is no tax if the residence is your designated main residence. Ask the MP's they know all the wangles.
You do obviously need a rising market to avoid losses so timing is essential as in most investments.

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> We had one business which didn't fail but didn't seem like a bundle of laughs, looking back.
> I gave my views as to the delights of being a business owner on another thread so won't bore everyone by going over them again....
> I am exceedingly risk-averse so would never be happy or successful as an 'active' investor.
> But being prudent has enabled a lifestyle which suits me and is most enjoyable.
> ...


Hi

If I wasn't having fun in a business I would very quickly get bored and not give it my proper attention. I have actually given businesses away that I felt I could no longer enjoy being part of. 
My attitude to all that sort of thing changed dramatically following a life threatening illness when I was just 30 years old. nothing seemed to be that important after that experience. Fill ya days is what I believe.

Best wishes

Brian


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## bmilner (Apr 11, 2008)

jojo said:


> ah, now the exchange rate!! The money market! Thats an interesting game
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo

I guess George Soros can tell you all about currency plays. (he famously made a billion by shorting the GBP out of the 1992 ERM crisis)
I tried it and found that it is not as easy as it may seem. 
I looked at the pound when it was 1.18 Euros and thought it must be on the way up. If it reaches 1.2 I'll do a swap. Surprisingly most of the dealers thought it was too high and sold it off. Damn them !! 

Brian


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

bmilner said:


> Hi Jo
> 
> I guess George Soros can tell you all about currency plays. (he famously made a billion by shorting the GBP out of the 1992 ERM crisis)
> I tried it and found that it is not as easy as it may seem.
> ...


Well its certainly a fun market, so many permutations and of course so many currencies. The pound is bobbing about at the mo, altho maybe it could crawl up on its hands and knees a tiny bit???? But who knows. As I always say, guessing the lottery numbers is easier!!!! 

But in these trouble times, remember this:

"The worse a situation becomes the less it takes to turn it around and the bigger the upside" 

And then it all comes tumbling down again LOL


Jo xx


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