# Xalapa



## ElPaso2012

I've just fallen in love with a new potential destination, Xalapa. The  climate looks perfect (Xalapa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The surrounding mountains are enchanting. It's close to the sea, so fresh seafood will be available in the markets. 

It's also a city of about half a million according to Wikipedia, which is about perfect for me. 

One thing I could not find was a good source for classified ads about rentals. 

I am also curious about internet providers. 

Does anyone on the forum actually live there?


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## citlali

Perfect is all relative , if you like chipi chipi you will love it here. It makes for a nice green place.


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## Hound Dog

I don´t live in Xalapa (or Jalapa as one prefers - both are correct) but have traveled there a few times and at one time had the city on my short list of potential places to move to to escape the Lake Chapala expat retirement colony. The ciiy sits at about 4,800 feet (versus 5,000 feet more or less) for the town of Ajijic where we reside part of each year. Because of Jalapa´s altitude, it is much cooler than nearby Veracruz City on the Gulf but, in the case of Jalapa, that coolness was a factor in my rejecting the place as a permanent, full-time residence since, because of its location and steep mountain backdrop, the city is famous in Mexico for experiencing an abundance of what the locals call "chipi-chipi" or often prolonged periods of overcast and light drizzle coming in from the Gulf and hanging there in the city against the mountain slopes which does not appeal to me as a sunshine freak but to each his own. 

This affliction of moist overcast and drizzle occurs in other parts of Veracruz State as well. For instance, we strongly also considered, back in 2006 when we were looking around for a new home, the town of Fortin de Las Flores in the Orizaba-Córdoba, Veracruz urban corridor but also found the "chipi-chipi" there at the eastern foot of Pico Orizaba and the sheer mountain wall of the Puebla high plateau to be a bit much for us. A nice town full of gardens and much loved by flowers but not for us. 

The difference between the Lake Chapala area and the Jalapa area, despite the fact that both communities are at about the same cooling altitude is those moist Gulf coastal breezes that bring the overcast and drizzle to Jalapa do not afflict the Lake Chapala area so that the lake communities bask in almost continuous sunshine protected from Guadalajara´s smog by high mountains to the north. 

Except for that "chipi-chipi" which is a matter of taste, I find Jalapa to be an attractive city with lots of greenery, a sophisticated cultural center as the state capital and a noted university town as well Also lots of good restaurants and, since the city is close to the Gulf, lots of great seafood as you imagined. 

Of course, for a long time I lived in San Francisco and on the Sonoma Coast in Northern California and grew, over the years, to begin to detest the low clouds and fog rolling in now and then from the icy cold Pacific in the summer so, when I retired, I headed south to Mexico in search of incessant and dependable crystal sunshine. Since you live in El Paso, you may have had your fill of the sun and, if the prospect of occasional but persistent drear does not bother you, Japala could be a great town in which to settle.


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## joaquinx

Here is a list of a few sites, however, it is best to tour the neighborhoods and look for signs that read "Se Renta/Se Vende"

Inmuebles Renta Xalapa Enríquez - Locanto

Casas y Departamentos en renta Xalapa | Vivanuncios

Inmuebles en Xalapa

Departamentos en Renta en Martínez De La Torre, Veracruz - inmuebles24.com

Renta departamento xalapa - Trovit Casas

Lerú, Bienes Raices

Houses - Apartments for Rent Xalapa

I live in Xalapa and chipi-chipi only occurs for a few winter months. There is higher humidity than other mountain cities because of the westerly winds that blow the humid weather from the coast. However, it is good for the coffee fincas. It does rain a bit more here because this humid breeze hits the sierra and waters the coffee plants. Winter in the low 40's, summer in the 70's, and the hottest month is May. A little more than an hour to some clean beaches on the gulf and a little longer to the port city of Veracruz. 

This is not a tourist city nor does it have a expat community, so some knowledge of Spanish is recommended. There are a few gringos in the nearby pueblos of Coatepec and Xico. We do have a excellent symphony orchestra now seated in a new theater on the university campus. For those with NOB tastes, Xalapa has Chili's, Home Depot, Costco, Sam's, Walmart, and four shopping centers. 

If you have further questions, PM me.


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## chicois8

citlali said:


> Perfect is all relative , if you like chipi chipi you will love it here. It makes for a nice green place.


I was going to ask you what "chipi chipi" was but your husband defined it.......suerte


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## citlali

Well on the plus side it makes for a beautiful countryside as the plants love that weather.


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## ElPaso2012

Hound Dog said:


> I don´t live in Xalapa (or Jalapa as one prefers - both are correct) but have traveled there a few times and at one time had the city on my short list of potential places to move to to escape the Lake Chapala expat retirement colony. The ciiy sits at about 4,800 feet (versus 5,000 feet more or less) for the town of Ajijic where we reside part of each year. Because of Jalapa´s altitude, it is much cooler than nearby Veracruz City on the Gulf but, in the case of Jalapa, that coolness was a factor in my rejecting the place as a permanent, full-time residence since, because of its location and steep mountain backdrop, the city is famous in Mexico for experiencing an abundance of what the locals call "chipi-chipi" or often prolonged periods of overcast and light drizzle coming in from the Gulf and hanging there in the city against the mountain slopes which does not appeal to me as a sunshine freak but to each his own.
> 
> This affliction of moist overcast and drizzle occurs in other parts of Veracruz State as well. For instance, we strongly also considered, back in 2006 when we were looking around for a new home, the town of Fortin de Las Flores in the Orizaba-Córdoba, Veracruz urban corridor but also found the "chipi-chipi" there at the eastern foot of Pico Orizaba and the sheer mountain wall of the Puebla high plateau to be a bit much for us. A nice town full of gardens and much loved by flowers but not for us.
> 
> The difference between the Lake Chapala area and the Jalapa area, despite the fact that both communities are at about the same cooling altitude is those moist Gulf coastal breezes that bring the overcast and drizzle to Jalapa do not afflict the Lake Chapala area so that the lake communities bask in almost continuous sunshine protected from Guadalajara´s smog by high mountains to the north.
> 
> Except for that "chipi-chipi" which is a matter of taste, I find Jalapa to be an attractive city with lots of greenery, a sophisticated cultural center as the state capital and a noted university town as well Also lots of good restaurants and, since the city is close to the Gulf, lots of great seafood as you imagined.
> 
> Of course, for a long time I lived in San Francisco and on the Sonoma Coast in Northern California and grew, over the years, to begin to detest the low clouds and fog rolling in now and then from the icy cold Pacific in the summer so, when I retired, I headed south to Mexico in search of incessant and dependable crystal sunshine. Since you live in El Paso, you may have had your fill of the sun and, if the prospect of occasional but persistent drear does not bother you, Japala could be a great town in which to settle.


Yes, after living near the desert for 12 years now and having lived in a hot place in summer all of my life, I'd like a break from the heat, the sun, and the dryness. Although I had not thought about it as the primary factor, I see now that my research into Mexican cities has been very climate driven. A look at the month-by-month Wiki climate chart is my first stop when I research a new place. When I ran across Xalapa this morning it led to a whole day checking out the city on YouTube, Google maps, Google Earth, and 2-3 websites about Xalapa that seemed to be either in development or had become a project that fizzled out. That was good news for me, since I will no doubt make a web site about the city I finally move to. 

Ah, well, I'm still a few months away from being able to go, but I have a feeling this destination is still going to be on my list when the time comes. So thanks for the input.


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## ElPaso2012

joaquinx said:


> Here is a list of a few sites, however, it is best to tour the neighborhoods and look for signs that read "Se Renta/Se Vende"
> 
> Inmuebles Renta Xalapa Enríquez - Locanto
> 
> Casas y Departamentos en renta Xalapa | Vivanuncios
> 
> Inmuebles en Xalapa
> 
> Departamentos en Renta en Martínez De La Torre, Veracruz - inmuebles24.com
> 
> Renta departamento xalapa - Trovit Casas
> 
> Lerú, Bienes Raices
> 
> Houses - Apartments for Rent Xalapa
> 
> I live in Xalapa and chipi-chipi only occurs for a few winter months. There is higher humidity than other mountain cities because of the westerly winds that blow the humid weather from the coast. However, it is good for the coffee fincas. It does rain a bit more here because this humid breeze hits the sierra and waters the coffee plants. Winter in the low 40's, summer in the 70's, and the hottest month is May. A little more than an hour to some clean beaches on the gulf and a little longer to the port city of Veracruz.
> 
> This is not a tourist city nor does it have a expat community, so some knowledge of Spanish is recommended. There are a few gringos in the nearby pueblos of Coatepec and Xico. We do have a excellent symphony orchestra now seated in a new theater on the university campus. For those with NOB tastes, Xalapa has Chili's, Home Depot, Costco, Sam's, Walmart, and four shopping centers.
> 
> If you have further questions, PM me.


Thanks you so very much! I'll check those links out when I return from Juarez on Monday and probably take you up on your offer to answer some more questions.


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## Hound Dog

Well, despite my warnings about chipi-chipi, I must admit that Xalapa is an attractive, green and scenic, hilly city with many cultural advantages. Keep in mind that, in addition to the chipi-chipi, which is characterized by drizzle and persistent overcast when it occurs, during the rainy season which is a summertime phenomenon from about May to August each year in that area, the city is subject to torrential downpours, usually, if I am not mistaken, occuring in mid-afternoon and, when I say downpours in this hilly city, I mean, on occasion, virtual inundations with streets becoming torrents for a while in the afternoon. This is a good time to duck into the first cafe upon which one comes for some of the strong local espresso perhaps with a touch of brandy or rum. Since good cafes dot the city center, one may usually be fairly close by one when the heavens open.

Now, joaquinx lives in Xalapa so he is a better authority on the city than am I but, while I think that Xalapa is a great town in which to settle, I am simply trying to make sure that, after all that time in (perhaps overly) sunny El Paso you are truly prepared for some of the climatological phenomena you will experience in parts of Veracruz State. You make it clear that you may have had an overabundance of sun and heat in West Texas and are ready for a change. Having been to El Paso and Juarez, I think I understand. 

Interestingly, at least for me; when we finally settled on a mountain setting for our home away from Lake Chapala, we chose San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet, a place that, as I mentioned earlier, is subject to some of the same Gulf weather influences as the Veracruz Coast and Veracruz State inland to the mountains. San Cristóbal is also a town with many cultural advantages, good restaurants and cafes and bars and a fascinating demographic profile with a population that is about 40% indigenous Maya. Some of that chipi-chipi from the Gulf reaches that high and becomes occasionally burdensome in the winter as it interrupts the often crystal mountain sky at that altitude and brings in chilly, damp, overcast weather but the really difficult weather in the Chiapas Highlands comes in the summer when the torrential rains come and are so disruptive and commonplace that workmen on construction projects tend, in the summer, to start work at 7:00AM just so they can accomplish something before the afternoon deluge starts around 2:00PM or so. Because of this, summer is when we head back north to Lake Chapala where the summers are also the rainy season but the rain, which normally occurs at night there, is far more manageable. Initially we had planned to leave Lake Chapala but no more. The Chiapas Highlands and Lake Chapala provide interesting geographic and atmospheric contrasts for us retired goobers and we all know that variety is the spice of life.

You could do a lot worse than Xalapa or, for that matter, Coatepec or other towns around there in what is a beautiful and verdant, mountainous landscape. Good luck to you.
I guess what I am driving at is that one must live in an area for a while before one really understands it well enough to know whether the place is a keeper.


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## ElPaso2012

Hound Dog said:


> Well, despite my warnings about chipi-chipi, I must admit that Xalapa is an attractive, green and scenic, hilly city with many cultural advantages. Keep in mind that, in addition to the chipi-chipi, which is characterized by drizzle and persistent overcast when it occurs, during the rainy season which is a summertime phenomenon from about May to August each year in that area, the city is subject to torrential downpours, usually, if I am not mistaken, occuring in mid-afternoon and, when I say downpours in this hilly city, I mean, on occasion, virtual inundations with streets becoming torrents for a while in the afternoon. This is a good time to duck into the first cafe upon which one comes for some of the strong local espresso perhaps with a touch of brandy or rum. Since good cafes dot the city center, one may usually be fairly close by one when the heavens open.
> 
> Now, joaquinx lives in Xalapa so he is a better authority on the city than am I but, while I think that Xalapa is a great town in which to settle, I am simply trying to make sure that, after all that time in (perhaps overly) sunny El Paso you are truly prepared for some of the climatological phenomena you will experience in parts of Veracruz State. You make it clear that you may have had an overabundance of sun and heat in West Texas and are ready for a change. Having been to El Paso and Juarez, I think I understand.
> 
> Interestingly, at least for me; when we finally settled on a mountain setting for our home away from Lake Chapala, we chose San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet, a place that, as I mentioned earlier, is subject to some of the same Gulf weather influences as the Veracruz Coast and Veracruz State inland to the mountains. San Cristóbal is also a town with many cultural advantages, good restaurants and cafes and bars and a fascinating demographic profile with a population that is about 40% indigenous Maya. Some of that chipi-chipi from the Gulf reaches that high and becomes occasionally burdensome in the winter as it interrupts the often crystal mountain sky at that altitude and brings in chilly, damp, overcast weather but the really difficult weather in the Chiapas Highlands comes in the summer when the torrential rains come and are so disruptive and commonplace that workmen on construction projects tend, in the summer, to start work at 7:00AM just so they can accomplish something before the afternoon deluge starts around 2:00PM or so. Because of this, summer is when we head back north to Lake Chapala where the summers are also the rainy season but the rain, which normally occurs at night there, is far more manageable. Initially we had planned to leave Lake Chapala but no more. The Chiapas Highlands and Lake Chapala provide interesting geographic and atmospheric contrasts for us retired goobers and we all know that variety is the spice of life.
> 
> You could do a lot worse than Xalapa or, for that matter, Coatepec or other towns around there in what is a beautiful and verdant, mountainous landscape. Good luck to you.
> I guess what I am driving at is that one must live in an area for a while before one really understands it well enough to know whether the place is a keeper.


Thanks for the insight, and I could not agree more with your last statement about having to be there to know if you wish to stay. I was in Juarez the past two days, and my Mexican friends made light of the fact that every I come see them I have a new destination in mind. "One day, Durango, another day Mazatlan, and now Xalapa. Where are you going to go? Why not just stay here in Juarez?" From there, they proceeded to cite all of the reasons I should consider Juarez. "You have friends here, and you already have the guide on the internet. And we want you here." 

Oh, my. 

Well, my only promises to anyone is a few weeks or longer exploring the above-mentioned destinations as well as some of the ones recommended here. Thank heaven Mexico has such comfortable and affordable bus lines. 

While the research process has it's limitations, it also opens the mind to more possibilities. So I'm just happy to have some people to talk to who have already made the leap.


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## Isla Verde

ElPaso2012 said:


> Thanks for the insight, and I could not agree more with your last statement about having to be there to know if you wish to stay. I was in Juarez the past two days, and my Mexican friends made light of the fact that every I come see them I have a new destination in mind. "One day, Durango, another day Mazatlan, and now Xalapa. Where are you going to go? Why not just stay here in Juarez?" From there, they proceeded to cite all of the reasons I should consider Juarez. "You have friends here, and you already have the guide on the internet. And we want you here."


Have your Mexican friends ever lived anywhere else but Juárez? In any event, it wouldn't be wise to count on them to be objective about the best place for you to live in Mexico.


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> Have your Mexican friends ever lived anywhere else but Juárez? In any event, it wouldn't be wise to count on them to be objective about the best place for you to live in Mexico.


The wife, no, only Juarez, but Sergio has lived in the US and different places in Mexico, and he readily admits all of the locations I've mentioned could be good choices. I've known them for 11 years, done web projects with Sergio, spent many a Christmas with them, and watched their kids grow up. He's a reporter, a restaurant owner, a musician, and is active in local politics. I saw them 1-2 times every week when I had an apartment in Juarez between 2002-2008. For a while I even lived in a building he owns. He translated my 200 page website into Spanish for me and did an exceptional job. They just want me to hang around now that I'm finally making the move. But they will accept whatever decision I make.


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## Isla Verde

ElPaso2012 said:


> The wife, no, only Juarez, but Sergio has lived in the US and different places in Mexico, and he readily admits all of the locations I've mentioned could be good choices. I've known them for 11 years, done web projects with Sergio, spent many a Christmas with them, and watched their kids grow up. He's a reporter, a restaurant owner, a musician, and is active in local politics. I saw them 1-2 times every week when I had an apartment in Juarez between 2002-2008. For a while I even lived in a building he owns. He translated my 200 page website into Spanish for me and did an exceptional job. They just want me to hang around now that I'm finally making the move. But they will accept whatever decision I make.


I made that comment because in my experience Mexicans always think that their hometown in Mexico is the best place to live, most likely because it's all they know and it's where their family and friends live. Sergio, of course, is an exception to this rule.


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## tepetapan

Isla Verde said:


> I made that comment because in my experience (Mexicans) always think that their hometown (in Mexico) is the best place to live, most likely because it's all they know and it's where their family and friends live. ....


That about covers everyone in the whole world. Thanks.


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## Isla Verde

tepetapan said:


> That about covers everyone in the whole world. Thanks.


I haven't found that so true in the States where people move all over the country in search of an education and work and adventure. I think it's much more the case in Mexico that people are extremely reluctant to relocate, even a couple of barrios away from where they grew up.


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## tepetapan

Isla Verde said:


> I haven't found that so true in the States where people move all over the country in search of an education and work and adventure. I think it's much more the case in Mexico that people are extremely reluctant to relocate, even a couple of barrios away from where they grew up.


 The people of the USA are known to be the least traveled in the world and hold the fewest visas per capita in the world. I have never seen that point of reluctance in Mexico. Must have something to do with where you live in Mexico.


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## joaquinx

tepetapan said:


> The people of the USA are known to be the least traveled in the world . . . .


I believe that Isla was talking about in-country movement and not foreign travel. US citizens might not be travelers of the world, but do relocate in the US. As an added note, they might rank low on the visa accumulation list, but travel a lot to Mexico where they don't need a visa.


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## Isla Verde

tepetapan said:


> The people of the USA are known to be the least traveled in the world and hold the fewest visas per capita in the world. I have never seen that point of reluctance in Mexico. Must have something to do with where you live in Mexico.


I was referring to Americans relocating within their own country, especially young adults intent on becoming independent and making lives for themselves, often away from their families. That was certainly true in my case! As as rule, I don't find this to be true in Mexico even among younger, well-educated professional people, several of whom have been or are my English students.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> I was referring to Americans relocating within their own country, especially young adults intent on becoming independent and making lives for themselves, often away from their families. That was certainly true in my case! As as rule, I don't find this to be true in Mexico even among younger, well-educated professional people, several of whom have been or are my English students.


Isla the answers are money, employment opportunities and family.
1. The vast majority of Mexicans live in homes that their parents and possibly parents' parents were raised in.
2. The vast majoirty of employment opportunties remain in the large cities and moving around is not as common.
3. Many families remain in the same home their entire lives since they have to help out the family with living expenses. Parents might have a son or daughter with his or her spouse and grandchildren all living under one roof. It is a combination of necessity and tradition.


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## citlali

When I went to school I learned that the Americans would relocate every four years or so when the French tended to buy or rent a house for many years, this may have changed and is changing but Americans seem to be able to pick up and relocate a whole lot more than other people, as Panamajack points out it all depends on money oportunities and family as well.
As far as tourists and Americans not travelling and not having visa, I would like to see the statistics. First of all Americans can go to a whole lot more countries without visas that other nationalities and I would like to know where all these people speaking American English come from in Europe, Asia and Africa .
The amount of visas in people passports does not mean a whole lot.

Travelling is a luxury and people with more disposible income tend to travel more.


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## PanamaJack

citlali said:


> When I went to school I learned that the Americans would relocate every four years or so when the French tended to buy or rent a house for many years, this may have changed and is changing but Americans seem to be able to pick up and relocate a whole lot more than other people, as Panamajack points out it all depends on money oportunities and family as well.
> As far as tourists and Americans not travelling and not having visa, I would like to see the statistics. First of all Americans can go to a whole lot more countries without visas that other nationalities and I would like to know where all these people speaking American English come from in Europe, Asia and Africa .
> The amount of visas in people passports does not mean a whole lot.
> 
> Travelling is a luxury and people with more disposible income tend to travel more.


In 2012, 36% of Americans held passports - about 113 million. that number is more important for overall American travelers as most places in the world require a passport today, unlike 20 years ago. Citali, you might think there are even more Americans in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas because they are so loud!!!!


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## ElPaso2012

tepetapan said:


> The people of the USA are known to be the least traveled in the world and hold the fewest visas per capita in the world. I have never seen that point of reluctance in Mexico. Must have something to do with where you live in Mexico.


Where you live must be a big factor. Mexican people certainly migrate to Juarez in great numbers, so much so that many of the locals who have lived there all their lives feel somewhat displaced. Also, about every third male under 40 that I talked to at length told me about having lived in the US, possibly having been deported, and having been born in some other state. On the other hand, I did know people that lived in the same house their parents did, often with their parents, and the household does just grow over time. It's a pretty good survival strategy if you don't mind a collective existence, but others reject that and go on adventures just like some Americans do. I would be hard pressed to make many generalizations about Mexican people. 

But back to Xalapa for just a moment. 

Thanks to all, because the post has been very productive. There is a set of links here to classifieds in Veracruz and Xalapa specifically. They all work and can give you a very good idea about rental opportunities, especially when used in conjunction with Google Maps Street View. Many of the ads offer enough clues that they can be found that way by searching for the nearby locations mentioned in the ad. It's about all you can do from a distance...but it's a lot more than was available just ten years ago. The in depth descriptions of the climate were very informative.


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## citlali

I like Xalapa and it is an interesting town that has a lot to offer but if I moved there I would move to Coatepec, I know less going on but a quieter and easier to get around little town that I find really charming.


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## ElPaso2012

PanamaJack said:


> In 2012, 36% of Americans held passports - about 113 million. that number is more important for overall American travelers as most places in the world require a passport today, unlike 20 years ago. Citali, you might think there are even more Americans in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas because they are so loud!!!!


I'm smiling because as a general rule, when exploring any location in Latin America my first rule is _avoid other Americans_. A few come to see the sights, soak up the culture, and make an attempt to be a good representative of the US, but far too many are as you describe. They tick people off, and I don't need those problems.


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## RVGRINGO

You have reminded me of some rather plump American ladies at the Parthenon in Athens; complaining loudly to their guide that there should be an escalator! That was in the early 1960s and things have not changed at all. American tourists are, generally, very strange people!


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## Isla Verde

ElPaso2012 said:


> Where you live must be a big factor. Mexican people certainly migrate to Juarez in great numbers, so much so that many of the locals who have lived there all their lives feel somewhat displaced. Also, about every third male under 40 that I talked to at length told me about having lived in the US, possibly having been deported, and having been born in some other state. On the other hand, I did know people that lived in the same house their parents did, often with their parents, and the household does just grow over time. It's a pretty good survival strategy if you don't mind a collective existence, but others reject that and go on adventures just like some Americans do. I would be hard pressed to make many generalizations about Mexican people.


I imagine that Juárez's situation on the border with the US attracts many Mexicans who move there to work and perhaps hope to cross over into the US. Many of those who have done this illegally and have later been deported back to Mexico are often left at the border in places like Juárez. That could account in part for the one male in three you've spoken to who is from another part of Mexico. When I wrote about most Mexicans not being likely to move far away from the places where they were born and where their families still live, I was thinking about Mexican friends and students, who have all been from the middle-class and thus are not part of the population who go to the US to seek work. Of course, it's a generalization, but one which carries some truth. When I've discussed this topic with my students, who are all educated middle-class Mexicans, they agree with me. I feel that the desire to stay close to one's family, geographically as well as emotionally, is much stronger in Mexico than in the US, where young adults are generally expected to leave home when they finish their education and make lives from themselves away from the nuclear family. This is not so common here, at least from what I've seen in Mexico, which I have seen change in many ways since my first visit here in the summer of 1966 but not in this one respect.


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## GARYJ65

RVGRINGO said:


> You have reminded me of some rather plump American ladies at the Parthenon in Athens; complaining loudly to their guide that there should be an escalator! That was in the early 1960s and things have not changed at all. American tourists are, generally, very strange people!


Now you say strange to that?


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> I imagine that Juárez's situation on the border with the US attracts many Mexicans who move there to work and perhaps hope to cross over into the US. Many of those who have done this illegally and have later been deported back to Mexico are often left at the border in places like Juárez. That could account in part for the one male in three you've spoken to who is from another part of Mexico. When I wrote about most Mexicans not being likely to move far away from the places where they were born and where their families still live, I was thinking about Mexican friends and students, who have all been from the middle-class and thus are not part of the population who go to the US to seek work. Of course, it's a generalization, but one which carries some truth. When I've discussed this topic with my students, who are all educated middle-class Mexicans, they agree with me. I feel that the desire to stay close to one's family, geographically as well as emotionally, is much stronger in Mexico than in the US, where young adults are generally expected to leave home when they finish their education and make lives from themselves away from the nuclear family. This is not so common here, at least from what I've seen in Mexico, which I have seen change in many ways since my first visit here in the summer of 1966 but not in this one respect.


Did some research on El Paso years ago. According to the U.S. Census El Paso had a population of 150,000 in 1950 and was 80% non-Hispanic white. And the remaining 20% weren't all Hispanic. Now it's around 800,000 in the metro area and is more than 70% Hispanic. And Juarez grew substantially in the same period. I bet most would certainly prefer to stay with family in the interior, but economic hardship uproots alot of people.


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## Marishka

ElPaso2012 said:


> I've just fallen in love with a new potential destination, Xalapa. The  climate looks perfect (Xalapa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).


Someone mentioned in the "Mexico as a Good Option" thread that Xalapa gets chipi-chipi two months a year. I asked in which two months the chipi-chipi occurs, but no one replied. I don't see that information provided in the Wikipedia info, so I thought I'd try asking in this thread. Anyone? Bueller?


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## citlali

Yes Americans are really loud so obnoxious that way but they are pussy cats when it comes to really obnoxious wait until you get hords of Eastern European tourists to Mexico or to the States and then you will know what obnoxious is. I think any large group is obnoxious anywhere... The americans were travelling Europe in groups in the 60´s and 70´then the Japanese in the 80´s, nothing like sitting quietly on top of a mountain in Hawaii waiting for the sun to go up and have a bus full of Japanese tourists and their cameras, parking next to you leaving the engine running and everyone camera in hand standing in front of you posing to get their picture taken as the sun is rising... now you meet Japanese by themselves and they are extremely polite. 
Last year took a kid to the Louvre to show him the Mona Lisa he had been wanting to se for ever: we were really lucky , we found ourselves in the middle of a Russian group ..that was an experience and not a good one. so Americans have been way behind on rude and obnoxious, they are really falling way behind.
You still can hear some great ones like we heard in Versailles as we were watching music and XVIII the century fountains with water following the music..this Texan woman said "oh my it is just like last Vegas..."
She was right in a way but talking about not appreciating what she was seeing...


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## citlali

Ok Marisha I do not know what two months but Ill take a guess December January February. These are the months we go down south and never fail to hit heavy fog, cold , humid and with chipi chipi in that time period starting in Orizaba going down the hill, Cordoba and all the way to Tuxtla Gutierrez where the weather is usually sunny.. I would be curious to hear if it happens in the summer at higher altitude. It sure does in San Cristobal.
Sometimes it is not cold but we drive in a pea soup at that time of the year for sure..


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## joaquinx

Marishka said:


> Someone mentioned in the "Mexico as a Good Option" thread that Xalapa gets chipi-chipi two months a year. I asked in which two months the chipi-chipi occurs, but no one replied. I don't see that information provided in the Wikipedia info, so I thought I'd try asking in this thread. Anyone? Bueller?


I mentioned two months in this thread, but I have over estimated the chipi-chipi occurrence. Generally it occurs in January and February, but not everyday. Now in Xalapa it would happen perhaps 10 days a year in those months. In other towns such as Naolinco, it might occur everyday in those months. Chipi-chipi might occur in other months but that would be rare.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Marishka;1431929]Someone mentioned in the "Mexico as a Good Option" thread that Xalapa gets chipi-chipi two months a year. I asked in which two months the chipi-chipi occurs, but no one replied. I don't see that information provided in the Wikipedia info, so I thought I'd try asking in this thread. Anyone? Bueller?[/QUOTE]_

I say, as a non-expert on the matter, that from our travels between Lake Chapala and Chiapas several times a year in all seasons, usually through Veracruz State descending from the Puebla High Plateau into Orizaba or ascending from Orizaba to the plateau, that that wintertime chipi-chipi we speak of relating to Xalapa and the "Nortes" hitting the Gulf Coast of Veracruz is very much alive as one descends into the Veracruz Coastal Plain from the plateau and suddenly, the weather goes from brilliant sunshine on the plateau to overcast, dreary drizzle at Orizaba and, as my wife posted earlier, we can experience that coastal overcast and drizzle all the way to the edges of Chiapas´state capital at Tuxtla Gutierrez but keep in mind that that is, as stated before, during the dead of winter - _*the dry season*_. The rainy season comes in May through August and then it is really overcast with possible dangerous inundations so, despite the chipi-chipi, winter seems the best time to drive through there. On second thought, once they open the new cuota from Oaxaca City to Tehuantepec, I think we´ll veer off of the Puebla-Veracruz cuota and head for Oaxaca City, Tehuantepec, Arriaga, Chiapas and on up to Tuxtal Gutierrez and San Cristóbal. Sunshine is a good thing to be sought when possible.


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## Isla Verde

vantexan said:


> Did some research on El Paso years ago. According to the U.S. Census El Paso had a population of 150,000 in 1950 and was 80% non-Hispanic white. And the remaining 20% weren't all Hispanic. Now it's around 800,000 in the metro area and is more than 70% Hispanic. And Juarez grew substantially in the same period. I bet most would certainly prefer to stay with family in the interior, but economic hardship uproots a lot of people.


That's no doubt true. I guess my point is that while most Mexicans would prefer to spend most of their lives living very near or with their families, whether or not their economic situation lets them do that, many Americans do not feel this need and happily live away from their families, in other cities or other states.


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> That's no doubt true. I guess my point is that while most Mexicans would prefer to spend most of their lives living very near or with their families, whether or not their economic situation lets them do that, many Americans do not feel this need and happily live away from their families, in other cities or other states.


Isla, I didn't see this or your previous post before now. You're so right to point out that in the US now the family unit, as seen in Mexico, is gone, probably forever. It's been utterly decimated, actually. As you know, in Mexico the idea of not getting together for holidays would never occur to them if they live in the same city. Contact with someone in the family or a friend of the family is almost daily. Some American families only see each other at Christmas, if then, or call each other twice a year. Whether they live under the same roof or not, the Mexican family network is the key to survival for them. Similarly, older people are treated with respect in public everywhere I've ever gone. It's just that most of the young people I've encountered want to be independent in terms of living arrangements, just like American kids do (at least they used to), and that's a lot of young people because of my involvement in a website about Juarez, and neighbors, of course. It may be different elsewhere, I just don't know. I wish I had time to do some research on how many Mexican youths live with their parents into full maturity and stay there, because we are all just trading opinions based on personal observations, but I just don't right now.


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## AlanMexicali

ElPaso2012 said:


> Isla, I didn't see this or your previous post before now. You're so right to point out that in the US now the family unit, as seen in Mexico, is gone, probably forever. It's been utterly decimated, actually. As you know, in Mexico the idea of not getting together for holidays would never occur to them if they live in the same city. Contact with someone in the family or a friend of the family is almost daily. Some American families only see each other at Christmas, if then, or call each other twice a year. Whether they live under the same roof or not, the Mexican family network is the key to survival for them. Similarly, older people are treated with respect in public everywhere I've ever gone. It's just that most of the young people I've encountered want to be independent in terms of living arrangements, just like American kids do (at least they used to), and that's a lot of young people because of my involvement in a website about Juarez, and neighbors, of course. It may be different elsewhere, I just don't know. I wish I had time to do some research on how many Mexican youths live with their parents into full maturity and stay there, because we are all just trading opinions based on personal observations, but I just don't right now.


I have seen that regional differences have some younger offspring still wanting to live at home in their middle to late 20s until married, especially the women here in conservative San Luis Potosi and many divorced women moving back home in Mexicali and TJ also. It appears to be up to the family. Some families here are fanatic about marriage where in the frontera it is more slack in some families there. Also divorced women seem to get more respect on the frontera than here by most males. All women understand divorce quite well, I presume.

I have been told here it is not "proper" for an unmarried female to move out of the house at any age if their career [not simply getting a "job" somewhere else] doesn´t take them to another area of Mexico here.


I also see some males staying at home and doing nothing around the house until married in their middle to late 20s here. On the frontera that is harder to get away with.

The general reply I get here when mentioning I also live/lived in Mexicali is that the frontera is so liberal. [as this is a bad thing] Also a few have mentioned DF is so liberal, also as if it is a bad thing.


I live in an upscale privada here and see women living at home here some as old looking as 30 and driving new expensive vehicles to work every morning. Possibly mom and dad can´t approve of their daughters getting married to just anybody. I don´t know what this is all about.

The gossip factor seems to be in this direction.


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## ElPaso2012

AlanMexicali said:


> I have seen that regional differences have some younger offspring still wanting to live at home in their middle to late 20s until married, especially the women here in conservative San Luis Potosi and many divorced women moving back home in Mexicali and TJ also. It appears to be up to the family. Some families here are fanatic about marriage where in the frontera it is more slack in some families there.
> 
> I have been told here it is not "proper" for an unmarried female to move out of the house at any age if their career [not simply getting a "job" somewhere else] doesn´t take them to another area of Mexico here.
> 
> 
> I also see some males staying at home and doing nothing around the house until married in their middle to late 20s here. On the frontera that is harder to get away with.
> 
> I live in an upscale privada here and see women living at home here some as old looking as 30 and driving new expensive vehicles to work every morning. Possibly mom and dad can´t approve of their daughters getting married to just anybody. I don´t know what this is all about.
> 
> The gossip factor seems to be in this direction.


There is another factor at work here, too. My friends in Juarez were journalists, radio people, with a few other professions thrown into the mix at gatherings. Now that I sit here and think about it, it's their kids I'm thinking about. They were all people with something on the ball and out there building credibility with people. Hence, their kids are the same way. My best friend is building a house, and he's already told his kids they are not going to live in it. They don't want to, anyway. He just feels that if he doesn't make them learn to fly on their own he's not being a good parent. The girl is a nurse now and already all but moved out. The boy is looking at technical schools, and I assure you he will be put in one and gently nudged out of the nest. 

Among my working class neighbors, though, who were mostly smart people but just not with much education, and people working manual or service jobs, I did see a lot of what you are talking about, an adult son lounging around the house instead of having a job, or, in some of the really poor neighborhoods, people from several generations living together out of necessity. But I know for a fact among the professional class in Juarez most of the kids want their own place, their own professions. It's certainly true they are likely to stay in Juarez forever, if they can, because of family, but not necessarily under the same roof. I suspect it's got to be pretty much the same in any large Mexican City, but that I do not know for certain yet. 

I'm looking forward to finding out.


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## AlanMexicali

ElPaso2012 said:


> There is another factor at work here, too. My friends in Juarez were journalists, radio people, with a few other professions thrown into the mix at gatherings. Now that I sit here and think about it, it's their kids I'm thinking about. They were all people with something on the ball and out there building credibility with people. Hence, their kids are the same way. My best friend is building a house, and he's already told his kids they are not going to live in it. They don't want to, anyway. He just feels that if he doesn't make them learn to fly on their own he's not being a good parent. The girl is a nurse now and already all but moved out. The boy is looking at technical schools, and I assure you he will be put in one and gently nudged out of the nest.
> 
> Among my working class neighbors, though, who were mostly smart people but just not with much education, and people working manual or service jobs, I did see a lot of what you are talking about, an adult son lounging around the house instead of having a job, or, in some of the really poor neighborhoods, people from several generations living together out of necessity.
> 
> 
> The professional class in Juarez most of the kids want their own place, their own professions. It's certainly true they are likely to stay in Juarez forever, if they can, because of family, but not necessarily under the same roof. I suspect it's got to be pretty much the same in any large Mexican City, but that I do not know for certain yet.
> 
> I'm looking forward to finding out.


 I know for a fact among the many middle class and upper middle class here we associate with that they are more conservative in their thinking in this aspect of family obligations than on the frontera and would consider an unmarried child a liability they need to keep a close eye on during their education process and early job training and more or less demand they stay at home and do nothing but study and work hard. That seems to be the opposite of what you experienced, so far.


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## Isla Verde

I agree with your best friend that it's best to nudge your children towards independence by not letting them live at home once they've finished their education and can support themselves. The fact that he told his kids that they're not welcome to live in the house he's building is quite telling. I doubt that an American father who was doing the same would even suggest to his grown children that they were not welcome to live in the new house with mommy and daddy. It would be taken for granted that they would have no desire to do so. However, my experience of living in Mexico City for quite a few years has taught me that it's still quite common for grown children who have not yet married to live with their parents, even if they have graduated from university and have good jobs. There are exceptions, of course, but they are in the minority. Again, this is based on what I have seen here and not on any sort of official survey or poll.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I agree with your best friend that it's best to nudge your children towards independence by not letting them live at home once they've finished their education and can support themselves. The fact that he told his kids that they're not welcome to live in the house he's building is quite telling. I doubt that an American father who was doing the same would even suggest to his grown children that they were not welcome to live in the new house with mommy and daddy. It would be taken for granted that they would have no desire to do so. However, my experience of living in Mexico City for quite a few years has taught me that it's still quite common for grown children who have not yet married to live with their parents, even if they have graduated from university and have good jobs. There are exceptions, of course, but they are in the minority. Again, this is based on what I have seen here and not on any sort of official survey or poll.


I my way of thinking if they nudge their grown working career kids out the door before marriage they will be probably not be following the history of keeping them obligated to you for as long as humanly possible and reciprocation in retirement is always on the mind of mothers here as a way to keep the matriarchal cycle complete and in good order. I have outright asked a few mothers why they have had 7 to 11 children and in a round about way they have admitted to this way of thinking. Not as popular as before but still ingrained into the phycology of many here still.


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> I agree with your best friend that it's best to nudge your children towards independence by not letting them live at home once they've finished their education and can support themselves. The fact that he told his kids that they're not welcome to live in the house he's building is quite telling. I doubt that an American father who was doing the same would even suggest to his grown children that they were not welcome to live in the new house with mommy and daddy. It would be taken for granted that they would have no desire to do so. However, my experience of living in Mexico City for quite a few years has taught me that it's still quite common for grown children who have not yet married to live with their parents, even if they have graduated from university and have good jobs. There are exceptions, of course, but they are in the minority. Again, this is based on what I have seen here and not on any sort of official survey or poll.


Here's a short article that may explain why we are seeing a slightly different picture. Here's a brief quote from the article:

_Home Life

Traditionally, there were clearly-defined roles for mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters in Mexican families. The mother was the heart of the family, the one who cooked, cleaned and cared for the children on a full-time basis. Fathers generally took charge of family decisions, and their authority was rarely challenged by either the mother or children. Machismo, the Spanish word for male chauvinism, was readily accepted in Mexican families and the wife often endured physical and psychological mistreatment, as well as adultery. These roles are similar to what were the traditional version of American family values before the 1960s and 1970s.

Brothers were expected to defend the honor of their sisters, both verbally and physically. Sisters were relied upon to emerge in the image of their mothers, learning how to cook, nurture children and cater to the needs of the men in the family. Both brothers and sisters usually lived in the family home until marriage.

This traditional home life is evolving in many parts of Mexico, especially in northern cities. While some Mexican families still have a traditional home life, many others have home lives that look very similar to modern American daily life. 
_​
However deficient I may have been in explaining it, the last paragraph pretty much states exactly what I'm trying to say.


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## Isla Verde

It sounds like the border area of Mexico is becoming more ******-ized by the minute, for better or for worse!


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I my way of thinking if they nudge their grown working career kids out the door before marriage they will be probably not be following the history of keeping them obligated to you for as long as humanly possible and reciprocation in retirement is always on the mind of mothers here as a way to keep the matriarchal cycle complete and in good order. I have outright asked a few mothers why they have had 7 to 11 children and in a round about way they have admitted to this way of thinking. Not as popular as before but still ingrained into the phycology of many here still.


I don't have any Mexican friends (all middle-class) in their child-bearing years who have (or intend to have) more than two or three children, though their mothers may have had many more than that. Even working-class families I'm friendly with tend to have only two or three children. On the other hand, the owner of several apartments in my building, who also owns and runs the little barbershop on the premises, is in his seventies and has something like 10 children!


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like the border area of Mexico is becoming more ******-ized by the minute, for better or for worse!


It has been for some time and will always be more of a mix. I think it depends on how much interaction different families have with their children and families moving to the US. and coming back often to tell their stories plus they get US TV there on cable and on antennas there much more than here. 

Also there are much more transient movement from all over the place in the mix and these cities have grown much larger since NAFTA. 

Here most are here for life.


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like the border area of Mexico is becoming more ******-ized by the minute, for better or for worse!


Mostly for the worse, I think...


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## Isla Verde

ElPaso2012 said:


> Mostly for the worse, I think...



Well, then, it's time to make a move away from the border and towards other parts of Mexico. You may find that you'll feel like you're living in a new country!


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> Well, then, it's time to make a move away from the border and towards other parts of Mexico. You may find that you'll feel like you're living in a new country!


No question about it. Despite having friends and business possibilities in the city, the scars of the cartel wars weigh heavily on my mind. Seeing an entire city turn into a failed, police-state municipality almost overnight in July, 2008 was rather shocking. My landlord was murdered on the sidewalk where we used to chat. No one even knows why. He was a well respected man in the city. A taxista friend took a bullet in the head that was not even intended for him, and I learned this month another person I knew had been killed while I was gone. 

That can all come back at any time. The current mayor (and former mayor in the early 2000s) told a friend of mine that worked for him that he could not stop the drug traffic if he had every soldier in the Mexican army in the city. When he leaves office in a few weeks, he will have to leave the country because life will be impossible without the secret-service style protection he now enjoys. I have been a staunch defender of the people of Juarez, because they deserved to have their story told, but the city just has too many problems with crime, too many people from who knows where, and no real hope of permanent stability because of the drug trade. 

That can't be where I grow older...


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## PanamaJack

First of all we are North American's from the U.S. and Canada trying to figure out customs and traditions that are far different from ours. Pushing our traditions and customs on them is not proper. Maybe because I have lived here since I was 10 years of age I look at it differently but I believe the best thing Mexico has going for it is "familÿ." 

We are foolish to think that Mexicans would be better off nudging their kids out the door. That to me is the worst advice anyone could give Mexican parents. That is one of the biggest reasons the family unit has disappeared in the U.S. 

All and I mean all of my friends growing up here, and that includes some that did not have a bathroom in there house to some who had a maid, cook and butler, had one thing in common. There was always a grandparent living in the home and there was always at least one child married with his or her kids living in the home. 

My poor friends did that out of necessity as everyone chipped in to pay the rent, food, electricity, schooling, etc etc. The wealthy did that because it was just the ways things were done. You want to see how the family units are in Mexico, the real family units, watch a novela. The rich have families with three and sometimes four generations living together as do the poor families. 

I believe the traditions are evolving but it will take at least a generaton or two before it is commonplace to see a single female living in her own apartment. The idea used to be that young single women living alone were either women of the night or the lover of a wealthy businessman who had put them up in their own place for his conveniences. Sad but true. that however is changing today. Nevertheless, the basic family unit is much stronger here in Mexico and the U.S. could learn a thing or two from it.

When I married, my wife asked me if I wanted to live at her father's home in D.F. I tried it for six months to apease her but could not do that any longer.


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## ElPaso2012

Well, I think I have learned about all I can learn about Xalapa here. Thanks to all.


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## Marishka

ElPaso2012 said:


> No question about it. Despite having friends and business possibilities in the city, the scars of the cartel wars weigh heavily on my mind. Seeing an entire city turn into a failed, police-state municipality almost overnight in July, 2008 was rather shocking. My landlord was murdered on the sidewalk where we used to chat. No one even knows why. He was a well respected man in the city. A taxista friend took a bullet in the head that was not even intended for him, and I learned this month another person I knew had been killed while I was gone.
> 
> That can all come back at any time. The current mayor (and former mayor in the early 2000s) told a friend of mine that worked for him that he could not stop the drug traffic if he had every soldier in the Mexican army in the city. When he leaves office in a few weeks, he will have to leave the country because life will be impossible without the secret-service style protection he now enjoys. I have been a staunch defender of the people of Juarez, because they deserved to have their story told, but the city just has too many problems with crime, too many people from who knows where, and no real hope of permanent stability because of the drug trade.
> 
> That can't be where I grow older...


ElPaso, that is so sad. I hope that things will turn around in Juárez, so that the good people there may live in peace.

You are definitely doing the right thing in relocating to another area of Mexico, even though it must be hard for you to move away from your good friends. 

I hope you’ll give us a full report after you move. I love to read what expats have to say about the places they have moved to in Mexico, although it usually means that I have to add yet another city to my list of Mexican cities that I want to visit!


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## ElPaso2012

Marishka said:


> ElPaso, that is so sad. I hope that things will turn around in Juárez, so that the good people there may live in peace.
> 
> You are definitely doing the right thing in relocating to another area of Mexico, even though it must be hard for you to move away from your good friends.
> 
> I hope you’ll give us a full report after you move. I love to read what expats have to say about the places they have moved to in Mexico, although it usually means that I have to add yet another city to my list of Mexican cities that I want to visit!


Thanks, Marishka. Your right, what happened in Juarez was beyond sad, but at least it's quickly returning to normal now. The soldiers are gone, as are most of the Federales and Chihuahua police. Most of the local cops carry assault rifles now, though, but people are getting back out. We went to a park a couple of weekends ago and did some power walking around a track surrounding a soccer field where a game was in session. The bleachers were about half full, and kids running around everywhere. It was real nice. I felt perfectly safe walking the streets and hopping on the buses again as I dealt with getting my residency visa. The only bittersweet moment was when a young couple got out of their seats so I could sit down, because I realized they saw an old person (me!) and wanted to be courteous. Nobody did that ten years ago...

Better than a report, I promise a website about my final destination!

Thanks again for your comments.


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## ftm68_99

ElPaso2012 said:


> ... They just want me to hang around now that I'm finally making the move. But they will accept whatever decision I make.


I imagine it must be flattering to have people say that they want you to stay living where they are. In fact, I imagine that...for me, anyway...it would be one of the more powerful incentives to do so. 

Tay


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## ElPaso2012

ftm68_99 said:


> I imagine it must be flattering to have people say that they want you to stay living where they are. In fact, I imagine that...for me, anyway...it would be one of the more powerful incentives to do so.
> 
> Tay


Yes, and I would never dismiss the offer without a lot of thought. They are really good people. We have a lot of fun working together on all kinds of things. But, wow, Juarez forever? I just don't think so...


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