# Moving to SA - Jo'burg or Capetown



## GoldenFleece (Jul 11, 2009)

Hi
My husband is an SA expat living over here in the UK. His company have offered him a great opportunity to go back to Jo'burg or at a push they will let us live in Capetown. he was born and brought up in Jo'burg so thinks that there is little issue with either place. (All his family have left Jo'burg due to the crime and lack of opportunity.) We will have a 2 year old and a baby. Is CapeTown a much better option? IS the crime as bad in Jo'burg as they say? Part of me (a very conservative Brit!) thinks Capetown could be the chance of a lifetime and a great lifestyle for us all but the other part thinks Jo'burg could be a disaster, especially as I will be spending alot of time on my own as husband will be travelling in Africa. 
Thanks


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

GoldenFleece said:


> Hi
> My husband is an SA expat living over here in the UK. His company have offered him a great opportunity to go back to Jo'burg or at a push they will let us live in Capetown. he was born and brought up in Jo'burg so thinks that there is little issue with either place. (All his family have left Jo'burg due to the crime and lack of opportunity.) We will have a 2 year old and a baby. Is CapeTown a much better option? IS the crime as bad in Jo'burg as they say? Part of me (a very conservative Brit!) thinks Capetown could be the chance of a lifetime and a great lifestyle for us all but the other part thinks Jo'burg could be a disaster, especially as I will be spending alot of time on my own as husband will be travelling in Africa.
> Thanks


Cape town is a better option by a factor of 100. Why can't you just stay in old Blighty while he works in Africa. Think carefully and do your homework.
Good Luck!


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

GoldenFleece said:


> Hi
> My husband is an SA expat living over here in the UK. His company have offered him a great opportunity to go back to Jo'burg or at a push they will let us live in Capetown. he was born and brought up in Jo'burg so thinks that there is little issue with either place. (All his family have left Jo'burg due to the crime and lack of opportunity.) We will have a 2 year old and a baby. Is CapeTown a much better option? IS the crime as bad in Jo'burg as they say? Part of me (a very conservative Brit!) thinks Capetown could be the chance of a lifetime and a great lifestyle for us all but the other part thinks Jo'burg could be a disaster, especially as I will be spending alot of time on my own as husband will be travelling in Africa.
> Thanks


I would look at facts ond not at what "they" say. BTW, CT would be a better option - even though I have lived in Jhb (without death) for the better part of 4 decades.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko said:


> I would look at facts ond not at what "they" say. BTW, CT would be a better option - even though I have lived in Jhb (without death) for the better part of 4 decades.


Sofar. To date. Until Now.
But nobody can guarantee tomorrow. Especially not in SA.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Hi GoldenFleece
Since becoming an expat I have realised that perceptions about factors such as crime, discrimination and weather are relevant, as experienced by the individual on a personal level, largely based on their background and lifestyle. I believe Johannesburg's crime level, can be compared to high risk areas in London, caused by the same social conditions, influx of illegal immigrants and unemployment. 
Thousands of British citizens lived in splendour in South Africa during the Apartheid era and returned to the UK just before Mandela was released which contradicts with their fashionable image of being racially tolerant. 
Your safety, living in either Johannesburg or Cape Town, would largely depend on what security measures you can afford and which part of those huge cities you choose to live in.

Johannesburg is mostly the target of illegal Zimbabwean (running into millions I believe) and Nigerian immigrants but parts of Cape Town is renowned for it's poverty.

However, those who can afford and are willing to pay for 24 hour security, still manage to live, raise families and enjoy South Africa's many benefits, both financial and environmental. Compared to other immigration "havens", it offers great quality housing and wonderful weather conditions at very economical prices.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> I believe Johannesburg's crime level, can be compared to high risk areas in London, caused by the same social conditions, influx of illegal immigrants and unemployment.


Could you please substantiate this with some type of evidence.



JoziJoe said:


> However, those who can afford and are willing to pay for 24 hour security, still manage to live, raise families and enjoy South Africa's many benefits, both financial and environmental. Compared to other immigration "havens", it offers great quality housing and wonderful weather conditions at very economical prices.


Don't you find what you said odd? Perhaps things will get better (fingers crossed) - but what of those that can't afford to live in a prison?


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Could you please substantiate this with some type of evidence.


That's according to your compatriots that immigrated from the bad parts of London to the same country I did for safety. Rapes, murders, drugs on a daily basis, cannot park your car in the street, getting burgled twice a month? *I think I did say "I believe"? * Can you provide evidence to the contrary?



> Don't you find what you said odd? Perhaps things will get better (fingers crossed) - but what of those that can't afford to live in a prison?


It's not odd, that is the *reality *of South African living! They have had to adapt their lifestyles for survival. Even with 24 hour security you are not guaranteed a crime free life, so without it you can be sure you will be a victim of crime or getting killed. What will finger crossing help, it's not going to get better. South Africa and Zimbabwe are ex British colonies, discrimination policies were implemented during British rule. Yet Britain has chosen to turn a blind eye and ignore the crime and corruption, which have reached genocide levels in Zimbabwe and parts of SA?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Actually Jozijoe has a very valid point.
King Leopold would today be guilty of Human rights abuses and be tried at the Hague
for the Belgian Congo, the French's handling of Algeria and the "Barbouzes" actions I suppose could excuse Marseilles these days?
Gordon in Khartoum and Kitchener's actions  in the Indian Mutiny before he got to SA certainly are hanging offences.

Whats even funnier is that the revered Mahatma Ghandi was actually the biggest racist of all.
Its why he was thrown from a train in Natal.

History has a short memory.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

*where to live?*



GoldenFleece said:


> Hi
> My husband is an SA expat living over here in the UK. His company have offered him a great opportunity to go back to Jo'burg or at a push they will let us live in Capetown. he was born and brought up in Jo'burg so thinks that there is little issue with either place. (All his family have left Jo'burg due to the crime and lack of opportunity.) We will have a 2 year old and a baby. Is CapeTown a much better option? IS the crime as bad in Jo'burg as they say? Part of me (a very conservative Brit!) thinks Capetown could be the chance of a lifetime and a great lifestyle for us all but the other part thinks Jo'burg could be a disaster, especially as I will be spending alot of time on my own as husband will be travelling in Africa.
> Thanks


Capetown is not better or worse then Joburg. You donot have to live IN Joburg it self. Outside there great places to stay. We live outside Joburg in Kyalami and we like it very much. We live in a green belt.
There is crime in Joburg but also in Cape Town. I think even more then in Joburg now these days.
Find yourself a good, save place for your self en enjoye this country with its friendly people and great nature.

Good luck.

greeting from a cold and windy Kyalami

Annemieke


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Just think good what you want. To live around Jo burg is not that bad. We live there.
good luck


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Actually Jozijoe has a very valid point.
> King Leopold would today be guilty of Human rights abuses and be tried at the Hague
> for the Belgian Congo, the French's handling of Algeria and the "Barbouzes" actions I suppose could excuse Marseilles these days?
> Gordon in Khartoum and Kitchener's actions in the Indian Mutiny before he got to SA certainly are hanging offences.


The atrocities in Africa committed by countries with highly evolved royal hierarchies, have shaped much of it's history and future. Africa's rich mineral wealth of gold, diamonds, copper and now huge oil reserves on the West African coast, is a death warrant, as is the prospect of dirt cheap local labour to mine these reserves.



> Whats even funnier is that the revered Mahatma Ghandi was actually the biggest racist of all.


Not sure about Ghandi being racist, he is mostly admired for being a political campaigner that


> exposed to the world the discrimination practiced against the Indian subjects of Queen Victoria in one her Own Majesty's colonies


I would like to recommend this book for young British Expats planning to go to South Africa. It is written by British Author, John Allen, who immigrated to SA. It provides a realistic insight of the effect British Rule had on Southern Africa, an excellent time line of the evolving of Apartheid, ie the 1923 Urban Areas Act that introduced residential segregation, providing cheap labour for white industry. 



> Contrary to popular belief, racism did not begin with the Afrikaner government of 1948 or cease with the ANC government of 1994, and it is certainly not unique to South Africa


Google Books Apartheid South Africa by John Allen

You will gain understanding and be more prepared for your South African venture, a country that is very easy to fall in love with.

----


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

The difference was that SA made it Law and then limited Education and Training.
As for Ghandi, if you read his Biography and the book he wrote after his success in India he describes the Train incident in Natal SA perfectly.

Trains were segregated, Ghandhi, an Attorney, bought a first class ticket and sat in the Whites only section, when he was ordered to move by an Officious Train Conducter he refused as he did not want to sit in the Black section of the train because of the blacks and that he considered himself and all Indians to be superior to them..

He was given a choice, get off or move to the black section.

He chose to get off 
His comments written by himself in the Biography as well as in the Indian Community Newspaper he published , were Racist in the extreme.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> Capetown is not better or worse then Joburg. You donot have to live IN Joburg it self. Outside there great places to stay. We live outside Joburg in Kyalami and we like it very much. We live in a green belt.
> There is crime in Joburg but also in Cape Town. I think even more then in Joburg now these days.
> Find yourself a good, save place for your self en enjoye this country with its friendly people and great nature.
> 
> ...


Annamieke, how do know which is a good safe place?


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Annamieke, how do know which is a good safe place?


Maybe by avoiding that ? :
The execution that turned Limerick into Ireland's murder capital | World news | The Observer


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Arnaud, absolutely 
"In this run-down part of Limerick, Ireland's longest river acts as a natural frontier between the warring criminal clans of the republic's third city, whose murderous feuds have now claimed the life of an innocent bystander, a respected rugby player - the 11th killing in the past three years. "

Limerick (population 98,363)is known as Stab City for its gang warfare especially in an area called Moyross.(population 3659)

Ireland had 50 murders last year Midrand where Arnaud lives, has 28,000 houses it had 19 murders last year (19 and 9 the two years prior) 163 hi-jackings and 204 armed Home invasions.
Annamieke lives in Kyalami, opposite Bealieu, very close to a pub that used to be called Sheila's place, down the road from a small shopping complex that has Fibber Mcgees, a very nice Spur with a playground when the sewerage dos'nt back up, and Indian Restuarant called the Raj.
Midrand Community Policing Forum sector 2 used to patrol the area on horseback and all the Plots there have electric fences and there have been hi-jackings and home invasions in the area, 

Arnaud, I asked Annemieke a question based on something she said.

I would like her to answer.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> The difference was that SA made it Law and then limited Education and Training.


Are you saying that Institutionalised (declared) Racism is more evil than undeclared Racism?



> As for Ghandi, if you read his Biography and the book he wrote after his success in India he describes the Train incident in Natal SA perfectly.


There is no doubt that Ghandi's background and education lent itself to accepting racist values. He was born to a Prime Minister of British India and educated in law at London! India, another ex British Colony, is well known for it's class distinction between priviledged and non priviledged.

However, Ghandi's experiences on the train and a Court in Natal, then part of the British Empire, served as a wake up call.



> These events were a turning point in his life, awakening him to social injustice and influencing his subsequent social activism. It was through witnessing firsthand the racism, prejudice and injustice against Indians in South Africa that Gandhi started to question his people's status within the British Empire, and his own place in society.


Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

History is written by the Victor.

So how many untouchables did Ghandiji have in his entourage?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

*Are you saying that Institutionalised (declared) Racism is more evil than undeclared Racism?*
No, just more visible and therefore easier to attack than say Tribalism, which is still a form of prejudice but based on the same principle, ie x is an Eloi so therefore less than me as they
are lazy and spend their days playing,breeding and eating wiothout working.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Take a read
Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NOTE: Wikipedia is *not *gospel but a good starting point for most matters


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## JulianQ101 (Jul 17, 2009)

Ok back to the original thread and question... the poster asked about JHB versus CT.

I would say go for Cape Town. CT has fewer targeted home invasions and fewer driveway jackings and car jackings compared JHB.

CT actually has a higher per capita crime rate than JHB, but you need to be concerned about the crimes listed above. Plus CT really is a beautiful city. That said, yes it's dangerous compared to most western countries.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> History is written by the Victor.


Correct but that does not mean history is reported accurately. In fact, as far as reporting goes...


> The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. ... We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. ... We are intellectual prostitutes. – John Swinton, 1880





Daxk said:


> So how many untouchables did Ghandiji have in his entourage?


I have no idea, I am no expert on Ghandi but I am curious, so please elaborate.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> *Are you saying that Institutionalised (declared) Racism is more evil than undeclared Racism?*
> No, just more visible and therefore easier to attack than say Tribalism, which is still a form of prejudice but based on the same principle, ie x is an Eloi so therefore less than me as they
> are lazy and spend their days playing,breeding and eating wiothout working.


Tribalism, Racism, Apartheid Xenophobia, and the Caste System mentioned by Halo are all forms of discrimination. What is curious is that, the world in general, and in particular the British, strongly associate Racism with the South African Afrikaner, when in fact it is a legacy of British Imperialism in Southern Africa. 

The destruction of Africa, in particular Southern Africa has nothing to do with Racism. It is used as a scapegoat by political superpowers to exploit Africa economically. Why is Angola still in economic depression and poverty when it owns one of the world's richest oil reserves? Guess which countries are drilling for oil on the West African coast?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> The destruction of Africa, in particular Southern Africa has nothing to do with Racism. It is used as a scapegoat by political superpowers to exploit Africa economically. Why is Angola still in economic depression and poverty when it owns one of the world's richest oil reserves? Guess which countries are drilling for oil on the West African coast?


And the Easter bunny is real


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Annamieke, how do know which is a good safe place?


Just ask around. The people at work etc. We did it like that!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> NOTE: Wikipedia is *not *gospel but a good starting point for most matters


I could not agree more! Wikipedia, in many instances, also incorrectly furthers the belief that Racism is associated with South Africa. It is time that the British take responsibility and correct Wikipedia on this aspect.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> And the Easter bunny is real


Yes, and South Africa is safe and the British are non racist!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Yes, and South Africa is safe and the British are non racist!


You got it half right.....:eyebrows:


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> You got it half right.....:eyebrows:


Oh yes, (cough), I forgot...
London is a crime free haven....


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Oh yes, (cough), I forgot...
> London is a crime free haven....


1. Compared to J-Burg (it is)
2. London is not the UK (i.e. don't compare a city to a country)
3. Whats that go to do with anything? :confused2:


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> 1. Compared to J-Burg (it is)
> 2. London is not the UK (i.e. don't compare a city to a country)
> 3. Whats that go to do with anything? :confused2:


I have no idea what you are on about now, are you digressing for the sake of not having a valid counter argument or lack of evidence or can't handle the truth? 

Take responsibility for your actions.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> I have no idea what you are on about now, are you digressing for the sake of not having a valid counter argument or lack of evidence or can't handle the truth?
> 
> Take responsibility for your actions.


No surprises there.... I never new there was an argument. I just had a little giggle at your "its everyone else's fault except Africa's"

What actions? (do you mean like the first country in the world to ban Slavery which started and still today goes on in Africa? Or perhaps the gift of electricity to the world...

Don't you think its time South Africans pick themselves up like the Japanese and build instead of blaming......


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

More Easter Bunnies.... Mind the chocolate is melting...



> The destruction of the Zimbabwean economy, for instance, is not just a result of President Robert Mugabe’s corruption and mismanagement, but even more his government implementing neoliberal policies dictated by Western financial institutions.
> 
> Obama acknowledged the criminal history of the slave trade. The slave trade came to an end in the 19th century, largely as a result of slave uprisings in the Caribbean, most notably the Haitian revolution of 1791-1805.
> 
> ...


Green Left - How the West exploits Africa

Blood Diamonds with furry ears....






Exclusion of Wikipedia evidence is deliberate for the sake of sensitive British toes... no responsibility please, we are British!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

The Green Left - Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahaha ROTFL


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> The Green Left - Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hahahaha ROTFL


Laughter at the suffering of millions of innocent people, is this typical of your nation? 


Truly bizarre, I rest my case.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Laughter at the suffering of millions of innocent people, is this typical of your nation?
> 
> 
> Truly bizarre, I rest my case.


Finally...........:clap2:


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Finally...........:clap2:



So tell us Halo, why does Britain not accept responsibility for the crime and corruption and genocide resulting from the exploitation of it's ex colonies, Zimbabwe and South Africa? Please enlighten us from a British point of view.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> So tell us Halo, why does Britain not accept responsibility for the crime and corruption and genocide resulting from the exploitation of it's ex colonies, Zimbabwe and South Africa? Please enlighten us from a British point of view.



You want another hand-out?


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> You want another hand-out?


Of what, British exploitation? Don't you think you are adopting are rather racist attitude by referring to handouts?

A mass murderer like Robert Mugabe attends events in Britain on invitation of your Queen? No economic sanctions or disciplinary measures of any sort when there is Black on Black Racism?

It is just not consistent with the "Winds of Change" aftermath. The sanctions on economic level, even sport were quickly introduced when there was White on Black racism in South Africa? Why is there is no consistency in British colonial policy when much worse atrocities are now being committed? Tailored for economic needs?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Of what, British exploitation? Don't you think you are adopting are rather racist attitude by referring to handouts?
> 
> A mass murderer like Robert Mugabe attends events in Britain on invitation of your Queen? No economic sanctions or disciplinary measures of any sort when there is Black on Black Racism?
> 
> It is just not consistent with the "Winds of Change" aftermath. The sanctions on economic level, even sport were quickly introduced when there was White on Black racism in South Africa? Why is there is no consistency in British colonial policy when much worse atrocities are now being committed? Tailored for economic needs?


*player flips the race card - POW +10* 
I think you should start another thread as this is off-topic. (also my fault by humouring the blinkered)


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> *player flips the race card - POW +10*
> I think you should start another thread as this is off-topic. (also my fault by humouring the blinkered)



why don't you start another thread, but I think you'd rather have me shut up? Uncomfortable subject is it not?
Your Obnoxious behaviour sure is a sign of sore toes but it has given me the opportunity to set the record straight and cement it into Google.

Thanks Halo!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

The tread has gone off topic because it is very difficult to describe to European civilization just how dangerous Africa, and now South Africa has become without understanding why. 

Rapes, murders, robberies, ethnic cleansing, genocide, Black on White racism, Black on Black racism all forms part of the violence, an engine now driven by underground, economic exploitation. It makes the Apartheid days look like kindergarten.

If you wish to live there, you have to adapt your lifestyle for safety, and many of the locals achieve that with success by paying for security, gated communities, guarded parking and work places, surveilance equipment. During my final medical checkup in Rosebank, a well known and wealthy suburb of Johannesburg, I was body searched before I could see the doctor, his runs a surveilance camera and team in his consulting room. The British Airways Office in Rosebank is protected by Guards, Armed with Laser Technology rifles and bullet proof vests, they screen you before allowing you to enter the building.

South Africans have adapted to these conditions and have come to accept this as a way of life, in many ways they have become immune to danger and even defiant of it and therefore a lot of them feel that it is still possible to live in South Africa.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> why don't you start another thread, but I think you'd rather have me shut up? Uncomfortable subject is it not?
> Your Obnoxious behaviour sure is a sign of sore toes but it has given me the opportunity to set the record straight and cement it into Google.
> 
> Thanks Halo!


Because its not I who is asking the questions.....


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

JoziJoe said:


> The tread has gone off topic because it is very difficult to describe to European civilization just how dangerous Africa, and now South Africa has become without understanding why.
> 
> Rapes, murders, robberies, ethnic cleansing, genocide, Black on White racism, Black on Black racism all forms part of the violence, an engine now driven by underground, economic exploitation. It makes the Apartheid days look like kindergarten.
> 
> ...



It is not every where that bad in South Africa!!! Come on!
I never had to get a body searche before gooing to a docter!

And yes only in the wealthy suburbs, because yes there is somthing to ge for criminals!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Annemieke, the people who are reading this forum, who are thinking of going to SA for work, are highly unlikely to go and live in poor suburbs.
Dont mean to attack you, but you have an electric fence around your property? is it switched on?


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> It is not every where that bad in South Africa!!! Come on!
> I never had to get a body searche before gooing to a docter!
> 
> And yes only in the wealthy suburbs, because yes there is somthing to ge for criminals!


Correct, Annemieke I did mention an extreme case and will explain why. We lived in a townhouse complex in Randburg, +- 50km from the centre of Johannesburg. A middle class area with 24 hr security to match, electric fence, controlled gate, alarms, guarded patrol. One evening we had a shootout *inside *our complex, a car, out of control, racing through the complex and shooting bullets at everything. Somehow had managed to "slip" past the security barriers. We called the police, who turned up the next day. 

The small police force in Johannesburg (& South Africa) is not empowered to deal with the high levels of crime and violence in this densely populated area that attracts millions of illegal refugees. A lot of the police are corrupt because they don't get paid enough and accept bribes.

Even I was surprised at the extreme security measures in Rosebank at that time. The doctor explained that they were heldup at gunpoint and could not rely on the police for immediate help, therefore, as he plans to continue working in Rosebank and has to provide security for his patients, he introduced a very strict security system, his own police protection of sorts.

Daxk has made a very good point, people relocating to SA for work would consider wealthier areas to live in, thinking it would be safer. Correct, the wealthier areas are a prime target for crime and violence, requiring additional security measures.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Annemieke, the people who are reading this forum, who are thinking of going to SA for work, are highly unlikely to go and live in poor suburbs.
> Dont mean to attack you, but you have an electric fence around your property? is it switched on?


Not living in poor suburbs, but in normal ones.Not in Santon, Hougton etc. There is something to get.
And No we donot have an electric fence, no boomed area etc. Where we live is quite safe. We can walk, ride horses etc.

So not all is bad here!
Why live in an "secure estate". It is fake security, there are also breakins, shooting etc.
We have our one security under control! And that is much better then depending on others!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> We have our one security under control! And that is much better then depending on others!


If I may ask, what is your one security that is under control?

Family of mine are raising kids in Benoni, on the East Rand of Johannesburg. They live in a house, not a security complex. He has a lot of security installed though and they are armed. The children are never left unescorted when they go to school etc. They have adapted and cope well, considering the circumstances and enjoy life adhering to certain restrictions of security, like not going out after dark.

He lives in a much better quality house than I do in New Zealand and of course, enjoys the excellent South African weather, the best, *stable *weather in the world!!


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

If I may ask, what is your one security that is under control?



We have our one security and not depend on third parties. 

We just look around us and live very good here.
Great weather in the world, except the winter, it is too cold then (without central heating in the house, like in Europe and better build houses).

We go out, for diner in the dark, why not! But you have to know were you can go.

But now....:focus:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> Not living in poor suburbs, but in normal ones.Not in Santon, Hougton etc. There is something to get.
> And No we donot have an electric fence, no boomed area etc. Where we live is quite safe. We can walk, ride horses etc.
> 
> So not all is bad here!
> ...


Google Earth says different.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Explain, what do you see there?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

a very large wallpalisade with what looks like electric fence on top of it


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

oh, and you have swopped your South minutes on your Grid reference around or your directions are wrong, its 59 minutes not 95.
Have they managed to resucitate the Midrand Community Policing Forum Sector 2 Horse Patrols?
last email I had from them was two years ago.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> a very large wallpalisade with what looks like electric fence on top of it


Wrong place you find! Is not ours!


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> oh, and you have swopped your South minutes on your Grid reference around or your directions are wrong, its 59 minutes not 95.
> Have they managed to resucitate the Midrand Community Policing Forum Sector 2 Horse Patrols?
> last email I had from them was two years ago.



Yes there is a horse patrol, but on the other side of Main road.

And the directions are fine


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Left into Cedar,left into Begonia 1st right into Hawthorne, ist house on the right ? that appears to have a Security,either Palisade or wall , I'll get my friends to drive past on the weekend,they often have have Drinks/lunch at the Sheila's aka roos aka Country Pub.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Well, seeing that I have been reprimanded several times about getting back on topic, whilst discussing the reasons for security issues in Johannesburg, let's look at Cape Town, which has been irresponsibly "recommended" above Jhbg.

There is a false sense of security about Cape Town, Tourism is very different to living daily life there. Cape Town is marketed to Tourism as being much more "relaxed" than Johannesburg, that does not mean it is less dangerous. It is said that people that have travelled from Cairo to Cape experienced their first theft in Cape Town. As a tourist, common sense, not paranoia is required but being a resident would require security measures.

Horrendous poverty on the Cape Peninsula and an appalling crime rate in the Cape Flats Townships, Kayalitsha being a good example, just cannot be ignored. "Redistribution of Wealth", Robin Hood style is common.
Wikipedia estimates the population of Kayalitsha around 2 million but there has been no official count. 

Kayalitsha township - Cape Town - April 2005 pictures from world travel photos on webshots


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

*Kayalitsha*










From the looks of that photo, it seems that the gift of electricity has finally reached Kayalitsha! One wonders why this gift was not shared with people forced into Townships during British rule pre perpetuation of Apartheid by Afrikaner Nationalists as from 1948? 

*1918	Natives in Urban Areas Bill*
Blacks forced into urban reserves known as "locations" (Much like Red Indian Reserves)

*1923	Urban Areas Act* 
Enforces residential segregation providing cheap labour for white industry


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Left into Cedar,left into Begonia 1st right into Hawthorne, ist house on the right ? that appears to have a Security,either Palisade or wall , I'll get my friends to drive past on the weekend,they often have have Drinks/lunch at the Sheila's aka roos aka Country Pub.


The noisy Country Club, with the bad food! Good luck to you:focus::focus::focus:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> Not living in poor suburbs, but in normal ones.Not in Santon, Hougton etc. There is something to get.
> And No we donot have an electric fence, no boomed area etc. Where we live is quite safe. We can walk, ride horses etc.
> 
> So not all is bad here!
> ...


, Yes, Annamieke, it is on topic.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Thatch22 said:


> We have our one security under control! And that is much better then depending on others!



Annemieke, I think I finally understand “where you are coming from” (pardon the pun). A popular philosophy adopted by many South Africans who refuse to be intimidated or cannot afford proper security. Why a country as wealthy as South Africa cannot sustain it’s population with social security remains an enigma. 

Much of it’s history and future is dictated by it’s abundant mineral wealth, especially diamonds.

The Start


> young* Ernest Oppenheimer *had been sent to SA by London diamond trader Dunkelsbuhler as a diamond buyer.
> He wanted control of *De Beers* and its control of the world’s diamond mining and trading, so in 1917 he founded Anglo with American money from JP Morgan bank and from English financiers, sidestepping the Rothschilds and their links to De Beers.
> 
> By 1929 the Oppenheimer diamond syndicate had *outsmarted the De Beers directors and Ernest was appointed chairman — a position to which his son Harry and grandson Nicholas succeeded.*


The ambigious next generation funding the Apartheid engine



> 1963 when Anglo and De Beers chairman *Harry Oppenheimer *was determined to curtail Afrikaner mining’s entry into the closely controlled diamond industry.
> 
> Harry was liberal, but to a degree. *He publicly opposed economic segregation while endorsing residential segregation. *
> 
> Being seen to be on the side of the government was and remains a central business tenet at Anglo.


Time to Move back to London?


> By 1998 it was time to set in motion a shift of Anglo’s residency to London to diversify away from an uncertain future in SA.
> By 1999 the move was complete.
> 
> South African politicians were *persuaded *of the move’s potential benefits. Deputy president Thabo Mbeki supported it wholeheartedly. According to his office: “The deputy president remains convinced the listing of the new company on the London Stock Exchange will not reduce Anglo’s contribution to the economy, but will... increase the possibility of the expansion of its operations in South Africa.”



http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1035815


What does the future hold? Who knows? It won't depend on whether you are living in Johannesburg or Cape Town, rather on how many diamonds are required by the world's syndicates.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"We have our one security under control! And that is much better then depending on others!"
Annamieke, , what is that one security ?


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## GoldenFleece (Jul 11, 2009)

Thatch22 said:


> Capetown is not better or worse then Joburg. You donot have to live IN Joburg it self. Outside there great places to stay. We live outside Joburg in Kyalami and we like it very much. We live in a green belt.
> There is crime in Joburg but also in Cape Town. I think even more then in Joburg now these days.
> Find yourself a good, save place for your self en enjoye this country with its friendly people and great nature.
> 
> ...


Thank you - that is exactly my husbands view. My concern though is that when I want to shop or go out for outings will I need to go into Jo'burg, or will I be able to get everything I need from elsewhere (I maybe safer places). I guess we need to go out there and assess for ourselves!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Goldenfleece, no one shops in Jhbg anymore.
All suburbs actually have very good high quality shopping malls where everything is available.
Yes, there are mall robberies but in all honesty, your chances of getting hurt in one is small.
(Google it and za)
However , you need to fit in with what everyone else does.
all parking areas will have car guards.
when you approach your car, have your keys handy.
Load your car quickly and if you have a child get it strapped in quickly.
as soon as you are in the car, lock all doors.
On another thread here I gave the SA Police Services advice on how to act.
Shopping is also part of that advice.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Daxk said:


> "We have our one security under control! And that is much better then depending on others!"
> Annamieke, , what is that one security ?


Hey Annemieke, my friends could'nt get round there this weekend, what is your magic security?


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## chinasing (Mar 19, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Hey Annemieke, my friends could'nt get round there this weekend, what is your magic security?


In america we have we have guns...so people rethink attacks. 
DAXX u seem to know everything. do you know how to respect other peoples opinion. Are you the socialite police or something. I plan to go to Zimbabwe soon... So I wont be needing any of your bias tips. After that I hope to have time to go to Ghana or Nigeria so I can run into my favorite actor Jim Ike....he's the ****. :clap2:


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## chinasing (Mar 19, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Hey Annemieke, my friends could'nt get round there this weekend, what is your magic security?


In america we have guns...so people rethink attacks. 
DAXX u seem to know everything. do you know how to respect other peoples opinion. Are you the socialite police or something. I plan to go to Zimbabwe soon... So I wont be needing any of your bias tips. After that I hope to have time to go to Ghana or Nigeria so I can run into my favorite actor Jim Ike....he's the ****. :clap2:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Chinasing, in SA we have guns too.
but the criminals have something else, they have suprise on their side as well guns.
Annamieke said she relied on her one Security, I asked her a direct question,
Enjoy your trip.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

GoldenFleece said:


> Thank you - that is exactly my husbands view. My concern though is that when I want to shop or go out for outings will I need to go into Jo'burg, or will I be able to get everything I need from elsewhere (I maybe safer places). I guess we need to go out there and assess for ourselves!


No, every suburbs has his one shops or mall, so you donot have to go IN Jo burg.


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## Thatch22 (Aug 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Hey Chinasing, in SA we have guns too.
> but the criminals have something else, they have suprise on their side as well guns.
> Annamieke said she relied on her one Security, I asked her a direct question,
> Enjoy your trip.


own security


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