# Procura Speciale



## rsetzer99

I have run into a problem getting an Apostille from the Secretary of State of Wisconsin on a Procura Speciale. 

The Procura has "Notaio Pubblico Statunitense", but a generic rejection checklist received insists that only the English words "notary public" will be accepted for Apostille. They appear to be making an unasked for legal decision that the original words are saying that the person doing the notarizing is claiming to be the more legal position of Notario in countries such as Italy. 

My concern is that Wisconsin may be insisting on a change that could cause the document to be rejected for its intended purpose in Italy. I have spoken to two translation firms that prepare procura's and both indicate they have never run into this before. Has anyone else had any experience with this?


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## accbgb

What exactly are you trying to have apostilled?

The State Department of each individual US state has the authority to attach an apostile to a document *generated* in that state and signed by a state, town, or city official or notarized by a state-registered notary public. The apostile process is the state's way of saying, "we accept that the official signatures contained within the attached document are "known to us" and, by extension, the document itself is legitimate. The United States Department of State performs a similar service for documents which originate at the federal level.

No state can apostile a document which originated in another state nor a notary public who is not registered in that state.

If, in fact, you are trying to have a translated document notarized, don't do that as there is no need. The original English language document (birth certificate, for example) requires an apostile; the translation does not.


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## accbgb

PS: If the document in question originated in France, then certainly it cannot be apostilled by Wisconsin. At worst, you would need to have it apostilled by the relevant French authority; at best, it is not required at all because both France and Italy are EU members.

My guess is that you would simply have it "legalized" by the Italian consulate in France.


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## rsetzer99

I believe I need to be more specific.

The Procura Speciale has been specifically crafted to grant power of atty to a trusted individual to complete the purchase process of a property in Italy. Saving me the time and expense of having to fly over and do it.

I used a American firm, certified in translation and experienced in preparing Procura documents to prepare the document based on the property information provided by the Notario in Italy. 

The document will be signed by me in Wisconsin, and my signature notarized in Wisconsin and an apostille affixed by the Secretary of State of Wisconsin. 

The clerks in Wisconsin have been provided with a checklist. On their checklist, they appear to be making the legal decision to override certified translators by making a blanket assertion that the words "Notary Public" cannot be translated to any other language. 

The firm that I used to prepare my Procura has been doing this for a number of years, and has said that they have never run into this before. Now, either Wisconsin is far more clever than all the other States, or, just bureaucratically provincial. (Which I suspect as the generic rejection explanation they provided was in English and Spanish, suggesting they assume all foreign languages are Spanish.)

At any rate, I was wondering if anyone else had run into this in another State. It would not even have been that big a deal if they had stated this requirement up front on the Sec of State website, which includes specific examples of exactly what "Notarial Statement" [Notarial Statements are the "Signed and Sworn ect.....] they will accept. But kept their translation prohibition a secret. I have received a revised document from the firm I contracted with which replaced. "Notaio Pubblico Statunitense" with "Notary Public"

As an aside, I've seen anecdotal statements, as well as specific examples from people who claim that the Italian bureaucracy can be impossible to deal with. As an Accountant for over 30 years, I have dealt with a vast sea of clerks in America. In most instances, they are only empowered to say No. Clerks do not get reprimanded for rejecting a document for obscure and secret rules. But heaven help the one who says yes under less than pristine conditions.


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## accbgb

rsetzer99 said:


> ...
> At any rate, I was wondering if anyone else had run into this in another State. It would not even have been that big a deal if they had stated this requirement up front on the Sec of State website, which includes specific examples of exactly what "Notarial Statement" [Notarial Statements are the "Signed and Sworn ect.....] they will accept. But kept their translation prohibition a secret. I have received a revised document from the firm I contracted with which replaced. "Notaio Pubblico Statunitense" with "Notary Public"
> ...


Well, this might have been your first clue:



> *Documents Signed by a Notary Public* - These documents must include a proper notarial statement. Statements are listed below.
> 
> _We will not issue Authentications and Apostilles for documents where the notary has used the Spanish term Notario or Notario Publico..._
> 
> Authentications and Apostilles - Office of The Secretary of State, Wisconsin


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## NickZ

In the old days the consulates had an office that provided a procura. I think these days they have a list of approved persons.

Are you far from a consulate? Have you asked them?


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## rsetzer99

accbgb said:


> Well, this might have been your first clue:



Considering the document was in Italian, there was no Spanish term used. Which leaves one wondering what they would do with a document in German?


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## accbgb

rsetzer99 said:


> Considering the document was in Italian, there was no Spanish term used. Which leaves one wondering what they would do with a document in German?


Aw, come on!

Clearly, their intent was to say "no foreign languages" - they used Spanish as the example probably because that one has actually been submitted in the past.

Certainly you didn't believe that they were ruling out *only* Spanish.


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## rsetzer99

NickZ said:


> In the old days the consulates had an office that provided a procura. I think these days they have a list of approved persons.
> 
> Are you far from a consulate? Have you asked them?


The Consulates will no longer provide services of this kind for Non-Italian citizens. 

Again, the point is moot as I have simply redone the document and used English words. (Hopefully small enough words for the bureaucrats to understand if I may be permitted a moment of scarcasm) I was only seeking input as to whether other States were doing this. A selection of Sec of State sites came up empty.


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## accbgb

rsetzer99 said:


> The Consulates will no longer provide services of this kind for Non-Italian citizens.
> 
> Again, the point is moot as I have simply redone the document and used English words. (Hopefully small enough words for the bureaucrats to understand if I may be permitted a moment of scarcasm) I was only seeking input as to whether other States were doing this. A selection of Sec of State sites came up empty.


Likely has something to do with Governor Scott Walker's hatred of immigrants: Scott Walker on Immigration


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## rsetzer99

accbgb said:


> Aw, come on!
> 
> Clearly, their intent was to say "no foreign languages" - they used Spanish as the example probably because that one has actually been submitted in the past.
> 
> Certainly you didn't believe that they were ruling out *only* Spanish.


Then I would have expected them to use a much simpler statement. "The words Notary Public must in in English regardless of the language he rest of the document is in". 

It was clear they were making specific reference to Spanish when their enclosure insisted that "Notary Public cannot be directly translated to Spanish" I have no opinion on the validity of this statement, but it was clear they were making specific reference to Spanish.


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## Arturo.c

rsetzer99 said:


> The Consulates will no longer provide services of this kind for Non-Italian citizens.
> 
> Again, the point is moot as I have simply redone the document and used English words. (Hopefully small enough words for the bureaucrats to understand if I may be permitted a moment of scarcasm) I was only seeking input as to whether other States were doing this. A selection of Sec of State sites came up empty.


The Italian Consulate in Edinburgh advises British citizens who need to have a Power of Attorney statement valid in Italy to go to a British Notary Public and have the document done in English, then have the notary's signature legalized with "Apostille", get it translated into Italian and have the translation certified as true and faithful to its original English text by the Italian Consulate.

That could be a solution to your problem, if it wasn't for the fact that Wisconsin is in the jurisdiction of the Italian Consulate-General in Chicago, and - according to the directions on their website - they expect you to bring the papers in person, rather than sending them by post as they do in the UK...


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## rsetzer99

Offf. Don't eveeeeeeen get me started on Walker.


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