# Residence Permit and Internships question Berlin



## Lea_OR (Mar 9, 2016)

Hey there, just moved to Berlin from the US and I'm having trouble finding info on exactly my situation and was hoping someone could help me out.

I entered the country without a visa, as we are allowed to do, for 3 months, and am trying to obtain employment so I can apply for the residency permit. The way I understand it, it's kind of a chicken before the egg situation where most jobs won't consider you unless you have a work permit, but I can't receive a permit without a job offer.

I have an MA and work experience and luckily have lined up a few interviews already. Here's my issue:

The other day, an otherwise promising interview abruptly ended when the HR recruiter asked how it was that I was in Germany - I mentioned my situation, and she told me flat out it was not possible to get a residence permit with an internship. I politely mentioned that my understanding was that if I had an offer in hand, I could parlay that into a residence permit, but she said no and we ended the interview. I think she is mistaken about this... The auslanderbehörde website specifically mentions internships, stating if you have your Anmeldung and health insurance and everything plus an offer, you can apply. 

Confusingly, I am getting conflicting information from another American acquaintance in Berlin who has decided to leave because she's "over the bureacracy"... Haha. She said she had an internship offer, but the auslanderbehörde denied her residency because her pay was too little -- apparently the company offered her something like 400 euros a month? Which I thought was not legal, given Germany's minimum wage laws...apparently the auslanderbehörde wanted her to be making a min. Of 800 Euros after taxes, which if you make minimum wage you would meet. 

Anyway, I have another interview for a job for which I am well qualified and get along great with their HR director. I'm wondering if this same situation will happen again, and besides what I've found on the auslanderbehörde website I cannot find anything about whether an internship offer qualifies me for residency, and I certainly haven't seen any reference to this 800 euro figure. Any advice or guidance? Much appreciated, thank you!


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Lea_OR said:


> Hey there, just moved to Berlin from the US and I'm having trouble finding info on exactly my situation and was hoping someone could help me out.
> 
> I entered the country without a visa, as we are allowed to do, for 3 months, and am trying to obtain employment so I can apply for the residency permit. The way I understand it, it's kind of a chicken before the egg situation where most jobs won't consider you unless you have a work permit, but I can't receive a permit without a job offer.
> 
> ...


Well, an internship can actually even be unpaid, at least if you don't need a residence permit. Your friend's employer might have felt very generous offering anything at all.

In any case residence permits for internships seem to exist:

https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305303/en/

Reading through the list of required documents, I think the main problems here might be a) the amount of work that a prospective employer will have to invest sponsoring you and b) that the federal department of labour has to give permission for issuance of a work/residence permit, which can take quite a bit of time. Also, since there is a PDF on student health insurance among the list of forms, this permit might actually be geared towards university students who have not yet graduated and need to complete an (international) internship as part of their degree.

So, from an employer's perspective, the recruitment process is a work intensive, lengthy one with no guarantee of success. Also, if they have to pay at least minimum wage in order to get you the work permit, they might just prefer a German or EU candidate who doesn't need any sponsoring, can start tomorrow and might even work for free.

The 800 € seem to be what the Ausländerbehörde consider the minimum amount to cover cost of living, alternatively you might be able to show savings (800€ x months = duration of internship).


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I don't have any specific advice here, but beware the potential linguistic difference in the understanding of "internship". In the US, as we know, it's a way to get people to work for free or very little, without bothering with employment standards or minimum wage. (In other words, a really crappy job for upper-class kids whose parents can pay their rent, but which they need for the resume so that later they can land their own upper-class job, thus perpetuating class divisions and restricted social and economic mobility.) In Germany an internship may be a more formal, structured thing as part of a training program or course of study. But that's just a guess on my part. 

I think you have two paths here, neither of which are easy:

1. Find a proper job, get a job offer, then go through all the paperwork needed to gain the appropriate residence permit - labour-market tests and all the rest. If you're up front about your immigration status, you likely won't get very many interviews, but at least you won't annoy the HR people by wasting their time. Ramming the paperwork through might take a very long time given the reports of delays now, due to the migration crunch, and it's possible that employers won't want to deal with any of that unless you are a very desirable commodity.

2. Find a poorly paid internship and apply for a residence permit. You will likely need to show savings sufficient to meet a basic minimum living standard if it pays less that what the authorities deem necessary - 800/month sounds about right, it's not much more than 8500/year minimum required for a student visa.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

I did a bit of reading, since I had never heard of anybody who was a third country national and not enrolled in an EEA university doing an internship.

You might want to have a read through this:

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/web/w...tei/mdaw/mji3/~edisp/l6019022dstbai651347.pdf

I don't think your situation is covered as such and any decision would be on an individual basis outside the rules.

Since you have an MA (MA in what?), how about applying for a jobseeker visa? That would give potential employers quite a bit of security regarding whether a work permit would be granted.

That would require returning to your home country and showing adequate funding, as I understand it.


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## Lea_OR (Mar 9, 2016)

this is the thing though, as an American I wouldn't have to return to my home country. I don't even have a visa for being in Germany at the moment... I have 90 days I am allowed, out of every 180, and if I receive an offer, I can change my status to a worker and attempt to get a residence permit in country. 

The problem is in my dealing with the first HR recruiter, I got the sense that she did not know this. Not claiming American exceptionalism or anything but I believe my national status matters here... I have another interview in 20 minutes with a different company so I'll see what I can find out 

Re: job seekers visa, I had thought that an easier route would be to acquire a residence permit through a job offer, but if this doesn't work out perhaps that's the route I will take.. 

Thanks guys!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

As has already been said, an "internship" (meaning an unpaid or underpaid job) over here really does mean a work-study experience and you have little or no chance at this if you aren't enrolled in some sort of university program that requires a work experience. (Most of them do.)

What you're up against is the usual work permit "challenge." A work permit can only be applied for by an employer and to get one, the employer has to show that they have tried and failed to find a local candidate (or one from within the EU) who could fill the available position. Obtaining a work permit costs an employer quite a bit in time and money so most employers won't even talk to anyone who doesn't already have "working papers" - like a foreigner married to a German, or the non-EU spouse of an EU national.

It's the work permit you're lacking here. And there is no such thing as "American exceptionalism" in this case. (There are a number of other countries that have ready access to Germany on the old 90 day stamp in the passport "visa" like you do.)

Best thing you can do is to demonstrate some exceptional talent or experience you can offer an employer to make it worth their while to get a work permit for you. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Lea_OR (Mar 9, 2016)

I just got a notice for a second interview.. This company is well aware of my status and that I've already completed my studies, so feeling good about that. Not all internships are built to satisfy university requirements as I understand it. 

And according to the auslanderbehörde, as long as I can prove I have a contract and savings and everything, I thought that would get me a residence permit... 

And also, native level English for a company that is expanding to the US is kind of the angle I'm trying to play here... Correct me if I'm wrong but from people I know in the US working for companies that expanded to European markets, i think this should be enough grounds to offer a position to me, but I suppose that depends entirely on the company ..


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

You've made a very fundamental mistake:



> and if I receive an offer, I can change my status to a worker and attempt to get a residence permit in country





> And according to the auslanderbehörde, as long as I can prove I have a contract and savings and everything, I thought that would get me a residence permit


You are not _entitled_ to a residence permit. If you find a job, you _can_ request a residence permit with permission to work, and you _may_ be granted a residence permit with permission to work. But there is no guarantee.

Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and others who enjoy the privilege of entering visa-free and making their applications directly to the Ausländerbehörde within 90 days (a huge bonus, don't get me wrong, back in the day we had to travel in person to the consulate, often at great expense) sometimes believe that this also means they have the right to stay and work if they find a job within 90 days. They do not. They do not share the rights and privileges of EU/EEA nationals. They still need to go through the Arbeitsamt for labour-market tests and all that.

In practice, if you're a software developer or engineer working in a high-demand field, and your employer is someone big who knows how to do the the paperwork, it's generally possible, and in some cases you can have it all sorted out before you arrive. Hitting the streets on your own may not be so easy. 

To more specific solutions:

Framing it as an internship for a limited amount of time, related to your studies, and proving that you have sufficient means to support yourself through salary and/or savings, is probably your best course of action at this point. I've found the Ausländerbehörde to be much more cooperative when they think you're going home after a year. 

The job search visa isn't really worth it for you, it would give you 6 months instead of 3, and it's really intended for those who can't enter visa-free for 90 days (i.e. Indians, not Americans). 

Because you have an MA, you should look at the Blue Card route. I don't know much about it, but I think it's a fast-track if you are offered a "professional" job with a relatively good salary. Not much use for an internship, however.

If you happened to have a Canadian passport and were not too old, you could apply for the Youth Mobility Visa, an unrestricted one-year work permit. Depending on what your MA is, you might find some sort of academic/professional exchange program that could facilitate working for a year or two, though you'd likely need to return to the US to start the application process.

I don't think it's nearly as effective as it used to be, but for years Berlin was ground-zero for the famous "freelancer visa". Come up with a plan, show some savings, gather up expressions of interest from more than one potential client, and apply to stay as someone self-employed in your field. Having an MA could be very useful here.

Overall I get the sense that things are tighter than they used to be, and the delays are certainly much longer due to the migrant crisis.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Lea_OR said:


> this is the thing though, as an American I wouldn't have to return to my home country. I don't even have a visa for being in Germany at the moment... I have 90 days I am allowed, out of every 180, and if I receive an offer, I can change my status to a worker and attempt to get a residence permit in country.
> 
> The problem is in my dealing with the first HR recruiter, I got the sense that she did not know this. Not claiming American exceptionalism or anything but I believe my national status matters here... I have another interview in 20 minutes with a different company so I'll see what I can find out
> 
> ...


You have a 90 day Schengen visa which you applied for at the border instead of at an Embassy.

Nationals who benefit from the visa waiver programme (USA, Canada, Japan, etc.) are encouraged to enter the country under it if they already have a job offer - contract in hand, resident labour market test done if needed and approval of the Federal Employment Agency obtained.

I only brought up the jobseeker visa in case your 90 days pass and you didn't get your residence permit. You wouldn't have to wait 90 days to apply for it, as it is a different visa category from a simple Schengen visa and it would give you six months time as well as a pre-approval by the authorities. It's not really appropriate for internships, though.

On the other hand, case workers do have quite a bit of leeway. So definitely go and try. Keep us updated how it goes!


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

One can get an extension to the basic 90 days if things are in the works but won't be wrapped up in time, which would probably get you out to six months.

I think the wait times and appointment situation is pretty bad now, probably quite difficult to get that first appointment before the 90 days is up anyway, unless you want to go queue up at 3 AM and hope for a number. And of course one cannot begin working before the papers are in order.

That being said, there is quite a bit of flexibility at the Ausländerbehörde. If you're educated, dress decently, speak good German, know roughly how things work, and have all your supporting documents nicely assembled, it can go very smoothly. (Last time we were over for five months on my wife's sabbatical. I wanted to do some freelance work for a local client, showed the Beamter an offer letter, and within 15 minutes he'd given me an open work permit - because he'd seen our return flights and knew we were leaving at the end of the year.)


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