# bar



## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

Ok,hello,im new to this forum,,would like to ask if anybody could give me the name of a website or advice about opening a bar,,cost of unexpected overheads etc,licenses etc,,,many thanks,,,ian.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

My advice would be - Don't do it

In the current economic climate so many bars are closing down because they cannot make any money that to consider moving here and opening a bar would not be a good idea.

It would be quicker and less painful to just set fire to your cash


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> Ok,hello,im new to this forum,,would like to ask if anybody could give me the name of a website or advice about opening a bar,,cost of unexpected overheads etc,licenses etc,,,many thanks,,,ian.


Before you go any further, pick an area you like the look of and make some fact finding visits. Go and visit some bars, maybe get chatting to the owners, watch and look at the work load and the clientèle and get a feel for the whole picture. Also look at prices, cost of living, general mood of the people in the area 

Running a bar isn't easy. In many cases people have lost a lot of money and struggle to make enough to live on and find they have to work constantly . But you need to see if it's something you can do. Sadly, websites and those selling bars maybe biased and won't give you a true picture. 

Once you're sure you can actually commit and do the work, then find a reputable agent... and see whats about and why. TOP TIP: Be wary of their claims, facts and figures! 

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ianthebuilder said:


> Ok,hello,im new to this forum,,would like to ask if anybody could give me the name of a website or advice about opening a bar,,cost of unexpected overheads etc,licenses etc,,,many thanks,,,ian.


I've never done anything like set up a bar, but I would stress extreme caution too because I've seen plenty, including well established businesses, close down.
However, here are some links to get you started
http://www.sepe.es/contenidos/perso...uropa/paises/espana/pdf_espana/trabEsp_en.pdf

Starting a Business in Spain - Doing Business - World Bank Group

Starting a business in Spain


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> Ok,hello,im new to this forum,,would like to ask if anybody could give me the name of a website or advice about opening a bar,,cost of unexpected overheads etc,licenses etc,,,many thanks,,,ian.


Ian,no disrespect to you my friend but as an ex bar owner I would say don't do it.When we came here over 20years ago we bought a bar in Benalmadena and back then you could make reasonable money but the hours you had to put in to make reasonable money was just not worth it and I certainly would not be using web sites or agents as the amount of people I have seen come and lose everything you cannot imagine.Like Jo said come over ,have a look around,try and get a job in a bar and then when you have got one person in watching the TV and he has had one tubo of beer in an hour you will realize it's not worth it.I have no regrets about buying a bar it certainly was an eye opener and an experience but back then you could sell bars if it wasn't for you.Nowadays it's a no no.Although if you did go for it if you could do something completely different to other bar owners you might stand a little bit of a chance and as I said before when you are looking look out for rent a crowd,scum of the earth where a bar owner gets all his mates in to make it look like the bar is busy.If you did go for it sincerely wish you the best of luck but it's not something I would want to take on in today's climate but with all of Spains problems and which european country hasn't it's still an enjoyable country to live in otherwise me and the wife wouldn't still be here over 20years later.Utmost respect.sB.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

soulboy said:


> when you are looking look out for rent a crowd,scum of the earth where a bar owner gets all his mates in to make it look like the bar is busy.


Yep, I was one of those "scum of the earth" folk lol. I didnt really think about it too much at the time, but a friend of mine (an agent)used to get a few friends to visit a bar at a particular time for drinks and a chat to make various bars look busy for a viewing. So it does happen

Jo xxx


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

jojo said:


> Yep, I was one of those "scum of the earth" folk lol. I didnt really think about it too much at the time, but a friend of mine (an agent)used to get a few friends to visit a bar at a particular time for drinks and a chat to make various bars look busy for a viewing. So it does happen
> 
> Jo xxx


I wasn't referring to you Jo and no disrespect but the heartache and misery it causes you would not believe.Even where I know of a guy committing suicide because he lost everything.You can say that people should not be naive and guilible and that's why people today are lucky to have these forums and other places where they can go to get the hard facts whether good,bad or indifferent,and like I said my comment was not aimed at you Jo but it ¡'s certainly not something I would be proud of.Respect.SB.


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

jojo said:


> Before you go any further, pick an area you like the look of and make some fact finding visits. Go and visit some bars, maybe get chatting to the owners, watch and look at the work load and the clientèle and get a feel for the whole picture. Also look at prices, cost of living, general mood of the people in the area
> 
> Running a bar isn't easy. In many cases people have lost a lot of money and struggle to make enough to live on and find they have to work constantly . But you need to see if it's something you can do. Sadly, websites and those selling bars maybe biased and won't give you a true picture.
> 
> ...


Hi jo,,thanks for the help and everyone else,i of course would be coming to spain to have a look and will be doing lots of homework,,can you tell me is it possible to approach bar owners of empty property direct or does it all have to go through an agent? and what areas are any better than others or does it not make a blind bit of difference?,,,again thanks,,,ian xx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> Hi jo,,thanks for the help and everyone else,i of course would be coming to spain to have a look and will be doing lots of homework,,can you tell me is it possible to approach bar owners of empty property direct or does it all have to go through an agent? and what areas are any better than others or does it not make a blind bit of difference?,,,again thanks,,,ian xx



I'm sure if you approached bar owners direct they'd rip your arm off lol!!! The most important thing is to find out the "real" reason why they are selling up. As for better areas???? Well I'm assuming you're looking at tourist areas and..... I dont know if there is a reason why some bars are good and others arent..... Just remember that what you make in the summer, generally will have to carry you thru the winter months, when you may not see anyone for days, and to assess the type of tourists in your chosen area.

I had friends who owned a cafe bar in an expat town. I waitressed for them and all I remember (on a very simplistic level), is that they needed to take at least 300€ a day to break even (without paying themselves). That happened once, when someone held a wedding reception there, most of the time, their takings were in the region of 100 - 200€ a day. One of his many problems was that he didnt speak very much Spanish, so couldnt discuss or understand the rules, the various permits required, even the ordering and delivery drivers. 

Jo xxx


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> Hi jo,,thanks for the help and everyone else,i of course would be coming to spain to have a look and will be doing lots of homework,,can you tell me is it possible to approach bar owners of empty property direct or does it all have to go through an agent? and what areas are any better than others or does it not make a blind bit of difference?,,,again thanks,,,ian xx


I would say, in the current climate, it really doesn't matter where you open a bar.


They are all very hard work, produce little income and really could loose you a fortune.


Spain is not the place to come (at the moment) to start a new venture. Ask yourself why the bar is closed and for sale.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We've had a few new bars opening in the village recently (possibly because of the reduction in social security costs for new businesses). There is little or no passing trade so they have to lure customers from other bars. This means drinks at giveaway prices (e.g. €5 for a bucket containing seven small bottles), so there is hardly any profit margin, or staying open when the opposition is closed, which means you have to pay staff or go without sleep. 

On two occasions I know of, the bars whose customers they poached have made denuncias against them, for trifling things like the wrong size awning. They have to stay closed till it's been settled, and it all costs money. 

Finally, I wouldn't even think about opening a bar without being fluent in Spanish. Even in an expat area, you need to attract Spanish customers too, and you have to deal with all the bureaucracy, suppliers, cleaners etc.


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

thank you alcalaina,,im beginning to get the picture,,i realise its hard,but then perhaps people are not inventive enough to make it work,,,but i take your point especially about appealing to the spanish,,i would not start or run any business in spain and ignore the spanish,that would be suicide !!!,after all i would be a guest in their country,,perhaps if people would understand that it may make a difference ! i dont know,perhaps im wrong??


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> thank you alcalaina,,im beginning to get the picture,,i realise its hard,but then perhaps people are not inventive enough to make it work,,,but i take your point especially about appealing to the spanish,,i would not start or run any business in spain and ignore the spanish,that would be suicide !!!,after all i would be a guest in their country,,perhaps if people would understand that it may make a difference ! i dont know,perhaps im wrong??



From what I can see, its the recession thats causing the problem and that there are now too many bars servicing too few people with enough money to spend in them.

Spanish bars are struggling too, its just they have family, friends, a good knowledge of the language and bureaucracy to help them. 

IMO, you just need to do a few visits and get a better understanding of the whole picture

Jo xxx


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> thank you alcalaina,,im beginning to get the picture,,i realise its hard,but then perhaps people are not inventive enough to make it work,,,but i take your point especially about appealing to the spanish,,i would not start or run any business in spain and ignore the spanish,that would be suicide !!!,after all i would be a guest in their country,,perhaps if people would understand that it may make a difference ! i dont know,perhaps im wrong??


Ian,it depends on what your definition of inventive is.Believe me I have seen the lot.Happy hour,open mike nights,quiz nights,karaoke nights,live music nights,darts and pool nights and when you get bars that have been established for years closing down you know there is a problem.Whether you think my advice is good,bad or indifferent I am just telling it as it is.But like I said previously if you go for it I wish you the best of luck and also you have not said which part of Spain but hey at the end of the day there is only you who can make the decision.You may look at me as a failed bar owner which I can assure you I wasn't.It was just the bitchyness and back stabbing and people coming into your bar whingeing about the prices and saying that you were over charging for your drinks and they could get it cheaper elsewhere and you felt like telling them to eff off but sadly you had to bite your lip.In some respects I can say yeah failed bar owner but hey I am still here 20years later enjoying a very nice lifestyle.Respect.SB.


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

hey soulboy,please dont get the impression i was having a pop,,far from it mate,im really gratefull for the advice ! i actually think if your brave enough to have a go at it your never a failure,,i am a bricklayer by trade and have done general building now for 30 odd years,i have had the chance to own and run a bar before,in the u,s,a not england and certainly not in spain,,,i would like to think i could continue my building profession in spain but it would be nice to branch out and do both,have a base for living and socialising(bar) and working if i got the chance building,,, i have not even a minute piece of the experience you and others have on here so please dont for a min think im not listening or taking it all in,,,i may be new to the idea but i know when to shut up and listen ! lol cheers,,,ian


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

hi jo,,yes thats what i need to do so at the end of feb im coming for 3 weeks or so,,hopefully it will be enough time for me to get an overall picture,,thanks again,,x


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

jo are you talking about small bars,run by couples who want to live the dream or larger bars or even clubs? cheap entry bars i mean,,because i dont want to you to think that that is the market im looking at ,, i have no intention of buying a bar for £6000 and trying to turn it into a million pound enterprise !! lololol cheers,,,x


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## tonymar (Jan 29, 2015)

Yes , even in Benidorm I have seen many closed down bars !

Personally think Spain is a great place if you are just living here and have your finances sorted , but not so easy if you are trying to earn a living 

But in saying that if it is your dream , to have a bar in Spain - go for it , you only live once !!

good luck - hope it works out for you !

Tony


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ianthebuilder said:


> jo are you talking about small bars,run by couples who want to live the dream or larger bars or even clubs? cheap entry bars i mean,,because i dont want to you to think that that is the market im looking at ,, i have no intention of buying a bar for £6000 and trying to turn it into a million pound enterprise !! lololol cheers,,,x


so which are you looking for ?

a massive club type bar or a small local?


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

At the moment i am looking in benalmadina at a club that has been closed for a while,,holds about 200 inside,terrace for 80 (so it says) info is ok,but location adjacent to the square i have read about which maybe not the position i am looking for,,but furnishings etc look good,,sound system etc but you lot have made me think maybe more than i would have done,,so still a few to look at,,,i am thinking that meeting and believing an agent wont be straightforeward though,lol sneaky i think !! lol


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

I am thinking not only a bar there though,i do have the option of being self employed as i am here in england,in construction,i fully understand the recession has hit spain badly but im struggling to believe that there arent any bars that are successfully making a living,perhaps even a good one,some tourist areas must still be thriving? it would be in one of these tourist areas i would be considering....and from a builders point of view some people must be having or thinking of having work done on their property! Its been hard here but luckily enough i have got through to this point,even managing to keep a couple of people and their families,,simply by not overcharging and doing a good job,,that i think will make me a living in most places,,,im not in a rush to throw my money away however its just that i dont want to live somewhere and stop working,i am not a big drinker( which is something that im warned about lots out there) and i do not need the support of a social security system(luckily enough) i just have had enough of this place and i do believe things may get better there, (or is that just a dream) lol many thanks to all and please keep advice coming,,any at all im gratefull for and i do have a list of negatives and posotives ,,,im afraid the negatives are a way in front at the moment !! lol cheers...ian..


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I know of at least 20 British builders in this area alone, all of whom are out of work, most of them are really good and most of them have to return to UK for months at a time to earn money there. A friend has just been to Norway for 3 weeks for a building job as there is nothing here and 6 years ago he was so busy he was turning down more work than he was doing. Another guy I know, a first class carpenter, came here 15 years ago and opened a bar which was large enough so that all his 3 children would have work. He suffered 3 breakdowns in 5 years through the stress and hours of work. They made most of their money on Friday and Saturday and were lucky to take (not make) €30 a day the rest of the week and they had made the decision to target the Spanish rather than rely on seasonal tourists. Their normal hours of work, 7 days a week, would be 5.30 am until 2 am and remember this was long before the recession hit. Now he too has to return to UK for carpentry work to make ends meet. 

Yes there are some bars doing very well; they are not for sale. In our areas the new businesses opening in this area that do well tend to be restaurants but for every successful new venture there are around 20 that fail. You really must do your homework and absolutely do not rely at all on agents selling bars or an owner that will tell you his bar is doing very well but his sick mother means he cannot keep it open and must reluctantly sell (or some such story). They will sound very genuine as they've had a lot of practice as they desperately try to get rid of it. So that's the negative bit done with. It doesn't mean you can't be successful but it will be very very difficult.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Not pointed at Ian but in general I never hear any talk of business plans. That surprises me.

I remember when my brother opened a book shop he studied the generic client base, reading habits, average spend on books, employment rates, population in miles of radius. I remember him needing 56000 punters within 14 miles per book shop prior to the online boom (if memory serves me well ).

In tourism obviously you'd be looking at things like number of flights, hotel bed places, local with money population, business turnovers, no. of all inclusive, passing trade, profit base on stock cost - sell price, etc. I remember a member here, a bar owner, once offered the number of canas he needed to sell per day. I'd have thought that was the vital and fundamental type of info required.

There are business associations in Spain that can help in this regard but I guess because of the language barrier they are rarely tapped, it seems to me, by expats.

Surprised how many expats seem to think in Spain it isn't necessary to stick to business fundamentals. Just an observation and nothing more. Cheers

ps Sorry Ian jumping in. :focus:


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> At the moment i am looking in benalmadina at a club that has been closed for a while,,holds about 200 inside,terrace for 80 (so it says) info is ok,but location adjacent to the square i have read about which maybe not the position i am looking for,,but furnishings etc look good,,sound system etc but you lot have made me think maybe more than i would have done,,so still a few to look at,,,i am thinking that meeting and believing an agent wont be straightforeward though,lol sneaky i think !! lol


Don't know which square you are on about Ian,whether it's Ibensa or Bonanza but I can certainly tell you about the area as we still have friends down there and occasionally when we do go down to the coast we meet up with them,have a coffee and have a natter.But honestly I wish I had a euro for the times bars in that area have changed hand.Bonanza bar,El Elefante,Rockin Robin's,Hiccups,The Wheel,The Old Crown,Eagle Bar,North and South the list goes on my friend.I don't want to rain on your parade as at the end of the day it's no skin off my back if you buy a bar as it certainly won't affect mine and the wife's wonderful lifestyle here.In one respect be thankful you have got forums like this where you can get the true facts.Regards and respect.SB.
Hate being negative but just being realistic.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Benalmadena at the coast is as dead as a doornail has been for months! I know one set of bars, owned by the same people, that seem to do pretty well during 'the season'. These bars have been closed since end of Oct and won't open again til mid March. They just couldn't justify the overheads. 
I have 5 bars across the road from me; one has had 3 owners since I moved here & is now closed, another has had 2 owners & is now closed, the next one has had 3 owners and is back open and dead every night! One seems to do ok, hardly jumping but a few folk sat outside? & the other will be closed until March!
I have only been here since May 2013. 
Can't comment on the doings up the hill in the likes of Bonanza. There does seem to be a steady flow of older folk sitting outside bars and restaurants during the day as I skuttle through on my way to Arroyo! Not sure what kind of club you are thinking about opening? There are definitely a few gaps in the market in Benalmadena but I think getting licenses for music etc is so difficult that it becomes prohibitive. This is what I have been lead to understand by people who have been here a lot longer than me.


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

pesky,,soulsboy,angil,, your observations and comments have been a real eye opener and to be honest i feel like i should run for the hills,lol I still have a lot of thinking and talking to do with myself but due to not only your experience but others with lots more than me i am definately not going to commit to absoloutely anything at all,In fact im going off the idea rapidly, ( you could all of you have saved me much money and heartache!),i think after recieving your help all of you i need a holiday !!! Thank you so much for your interest,,im glad i found the site !! when i come over for a break i will buy you all a beer ! ( if we can find an open bar) lolololol cheers all x ian.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

I drink in Feungirola in bars that are jumping week in & week out, mostly Spanish / some Scandis very few Brits. That might change as the season does, time will tell. If you are coming to Benalmadena now pack a cardigan (I am freezing!) and be prepared to sit in empty bars! But you will defo get a feel for the place at its grimmest! Have a chat with some of the bar owners. I have met some nice, very forth coming people who I am sure will tell you how it is.


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

ianthebuilder said:


> pesky,,soulsboy,angil,, your observations and comments have been a real eye opener and to be honest i feel like i should run for the hills,lol I still have a lot of thinking and talking to do with myself but due to not only your experience but others with lots more than me i am definately not going to commit to absoloutely anything at all,In fact im going off the idea rapidly, ( you could all of you have saved me much money and heartache!),i think after recieving your help all of you i need a holiday !!! Thank you so much for your interest,,im glad i found the site !! when i come over for a break i will buy you all a beer ! ( if we can find an open bar) lolololol cheers all x ian.


Ian,please don't think that I have been trying to show you any disrespect,far from it.I honestly wish when we came here there were forums and other places like this that we could have gone on but sadly there wasn't or else it might have saved me and the wife some heart ache.Really do love your enthusiasm the only thing I would say if you could find a bar which you can get rent only at least you haven't got much to lose but would not be laying our mega bucks for a lease or back when we bought ours the old traspaso.Sincerely wish you the best of luck and at the end of the day there just might be something for you.SB.


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

cheers sb,,yes renting may be the way to go,i did think about that,,i havnt seen any with just that though,,like you say its the lease thing that hurts,,,i took everything you said as well meant and genuine advice and i thank you for it,, in the end i may or may not have a go but i am at least hopefully a lot wiser and carefull in the thought process,,,i know that many people think great,lets go to spain and run a bar it will be lovelly,great weather all day on the beach and make a fortune,,well im not quite that silly but in my life certain things have happened and now all i really want to do is have a go at something else,besides i would only be prepared to gamble maybe £15,to £20,000 that may be a good amount of money but if i could maybe get a year away working with that then it would have served its purpose ! I really am gratefull that i found the site and i can understand how people can have their heads turned and then loose everything on a longshot,I however run a small building company here in the uk and i just feel i need a change,like i said in an earlier post i cant go somewhere and just sit about,,maybe i should approach it with a different view,,,anyway enough waffling,,,thanks again mate,much appreciated...ian


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

ianthebuilder said:


> ................................... and now all i really want to do is have a go at something else,besides i would only be prepared to gamble maybe £15,to £20,000 ........................


Ian have you thought of buying into a bar already running owned by a spaniard?

Obviously somewhere with potential for english speaking tourism where you could add value.

Somewhere where your UK skills and mentality would offer synergy with the spanish mentality and local/supplier know how.

That way you could grow your investment over time and greatly reduce risk. And if you could get a bit of other revenue you wouldn't be an immediate 100% burden on the business.

Just a thought.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ianthebuilder said:


> pesky,,soulsboy,angil,, your observations and comments have been a real eye opener and to be honest i feel like i should run for the hills,lol I still have a lot of thinking and talking to do with myself but due to not only your experience but others with lots more than me i am definately not going to commit to absoloutely anything at all,In fact im going off the idea rapidly, ( you could all of you have saved me much money and heartache!),i think after recieving your help all of you i need a holiday !!! Thank you so much for your interest,,im glad i found the site !! when i come over for a break i will buy you all a beer ! ( if we can find an open bar) lolololol cheers all x ian.


Thank you for taking the information in the way that it's meant - as friendly advice. 

Unfortunately Spain + work = not good news at the moment so any information that you get, realistic information that is, is likely to not be what you want to hear (_especially_ about bar work and building!) Of course, in the end, you're the only one who can balance things up and decide if it's worth it or not. Too many people up sticks without any forethought assuming that we're all part of the EU so it's not going to be that difficult or different and life can only get better, but that just not true. Life may improve, but there's just as much probability that it won't! At least you've made a start by asking on this forum where you can see there are plenty of people willing to give an opinion.

You haven't said anything about family/ children so I'm assuming there aren't any in the picture. Not being nosey, but obviously the more people there are the more complicated it gets. If it's just you it's much simpler, and much cheaper.

Leave your decision about the bar world until you come over and see for yourself. You probably know a good few things about business so that should help you out somewhat. Don't forget the trick of going to the same bar at different times of the day and different days and if you see a bar that's doing well in Feb, you're probably on to a winner. Then look at the clientele. Are they Spanish? Would you be able to pull in and keep a Spanish customer base?

Also apart from all this business/ job stuff have you got any idea of healthcare requisites, paperwork that you have to do, tax issues???
There's quite a lot of info in the stickies on the main Spain page so it would be an idea to look through that as well.

Hope you have a good, info packed 3 weeks in Spain, and tell us what you decide!


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

pesky,thanks for the reply,and your right,no family !! so would be cheaper i think !! and thats what i came on here for originally,,tax,health advice etc and i as yet havnt looked or recieved any advice about it,even a lawyer ,is it neccessary to see one? still other things took over and i do think a visit is the proper way to continue,,but i will say being single now is what i would call a bonus when im looking for and considering an adventure like this !!


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

lolol whats a stickie ? lol


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

Ok got it !! lol cheers


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ianthebuilder said:


> Ok got it !! lol cheers


Sure? I'll give you the link if you want?


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## ian-young (Feb 1, 2015)

yes please,,


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Just wanted to make sure you saw this post from another thread, Ianthebuilder.



Turco1 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Thought I should come here and update the status of my friend because I recently saw another thread about buying/investing in a bar. To those who are still considering it, do not do it! My friend bought an existing cafe from someone in December and it honestly has not been doing well. I manage his books and have just seen a loss for the past few months. Granted it's only been a few months but still it was an existing cafe with an existing client base, so there shouldn't be this much of a loss already.
> 
> ...


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