# Padron for British tourist



## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

I dont know much about this but thought this the best place to clarify.

Due to the uncertainty of Brexit and possibility of 90 day stay limit (in EU countries) being enforced, a neighbour who takes his caravan to Spain each winter has told me he intends to get round this by applying for a Spanish Padron. But when i looked at the detail, it appears to suggest it's for people who "habitually live" in Spain and resident. By that i assume to mean a property with an address? Their intention is to use the campsite they pitch their caravan on as an address.

By getting a padron they claim they will be able to stay in Spain for six months. Is this correct? More to the point, is what they are doing even legal in Spain? Amazingly this is a couple who voted for Brexit!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> I dont know much about this but thought this the best place to clarify.
> 
> Due to the uncertainty of Brexit and possibility of 90 day stay limit (in EU countries) being enforced, a neighbour who takes his caravan to Spain each winter has told me he intends to get round this by applying for a Spanish Padron. But when i looked at the detail, it appears to suggest it's for people who "habitually live" in Spain and resident. By that i assume to mean a property with an address? Their intention is to use the campsite they pitch their caravan on as an address.
> 
> By getting a padron they claim they will be able to stay in Spain for six months. Is this correct? More to the point, is what they are doing even legal in Spain? Amazingly this is a couple who voted for Brexit!


No, by registering on the padrón, it doesn't change their residency rights in any way.

Non-EU citizens are only allowed to stay 90 days in every 180 unless they have a resident visa.

If you are habitually resident then you are required to register on the padrón. But doing so doesn't make you legally resident.

The only way to 'get around it' is to register as resident at the extranjería before Brexit - which effectively makes you non-resident in the UK, & also requires proof of income & healthcare provision.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

xabiachica said:


> No, by registering on the padrón, it doesn't change their residency rights in any way.
> 
> Non-EU citizens are only allowed to stay 90 days in every 180 unless they have a resident visa.
> 
> ...


So anyone can apply for a padron even without a residential address? See, as you probably know, here in UK apart from caravan parks licenced for 365 day residential use, a non-residential camp site would not be able to be used by anyone as an address (apart from the owner obviously).

Habitually resident to me is someone living there, not camping on a site.

Your last paragraph is interesting and pretty much backs up what i suspected. The way this couple are going about things they may well find themselves kicked out of UK never mind Spain!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> So anyone can apply for a padron even without a residential address? See, as you probably know, here in UK apart from caravan parks licenced for 365 day residential use, a non-residential camp site would not be able to be used by anyone as an address (apart from the owner obviously).
> 
> Habitually resident to me is someone living there, not camping on a site.
> 
> Your last paragraph is interesting and pretty much backs up what i suspected. The way this couple are going about things they may well find themselves kicked out of UK never mind Spain!


No, unless they have a residential address they cannot register on the padrón. 

Even if they were renting a property with a 'winter let' contract, that wouldn't be accepted by most ayuntamientos - only a proper residential contract will do.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

xabiachica said:


> *No, unless they have a residential address they cannot register on the padrón. *
> 
> Even if they were renting a property with a 'winter let' contract, that wouldn't be accepted by most ayuntamientos - only a proper residential contract will do.


So how are they managing to do it as they just park their caravan on a camp site? It's not permanently sited. They tow it there and back each year. Don't Spanish authorities check the authenticity of addresses? As far as i'm aware they've already applied.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Caroline99 said:


> So how are they managing to do it as they just park their caravan on a camp site? It's not permanently sited. They tow it there and back each year. Don't Spanish authorities check the authenticity of addresses? As far as i'm aware they've already applied.


When you say “applied”. What do you mean, Afaik you have to go to the ayuntamiento to get on padrón complete with passports and proof of address? You then collect your padrón certificate the next day BUT that’s only technically valid for three months although you remain on the padrón until you leave. However in our case, in the last year the Ayuntamiento have sent police local to anyone listed on the padrón who has now renewed it for three years to confirm presence at address?!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have only ever seen two ways to get "empadronado", one is with a rental contract or deeds to the property, the other in some authorities is a utility bill at the address and in the name of the resident.

I find it unlikely that this person / people have either of those, but it is Spain, so you never know. Maybe if they know the owner of the campsite well or have some Spanish friends, and they have let them put their name on a utility contract at the address of the campsite or even another address?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I think it's probably not helping that the British Consulate is touring areas where there's a concentration of Brits, telling them that they need to get _empadronado_ as if this is a magic wand.

To be fair, they are also saying that you need to register as resident - but the impression from most reports I've seen is that people are coming away thinking that one or the other will guarantee their 'safety' as a registered resident.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> So how are they managing to do it as they just park their caravan on a camp site? It's not permanently sited. They tow it there and back each year. Don't Spanish authorities check the authenticity of addresses? As far as i'm aware they've already applied.




I guess if their caravan is pitched on a site where there are permanent residents the local ayto might accept that address. 


Even if they have managed to register on the padrón, as I said, it makes no difference at all to their right to residency.

Also by doing so, they are declaring that they spend the majority of the year here, so are quite possibly going to come to the attention of the tax office, who will want to know where their tax returns are.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

Overandout said:


> I have only ever seen two ways to get "empadronado", one is with a rental contract or deeds to the property, the other in some authorities is a utility bill at the address and in the name of the resident.
> 
> I find it unlikely that this person / people have either of those, but it is Spain, so you never know. *Maybe if they know the owner of the campsite well or have some Spanish friends, and they have let them put their name on a utility contract at the address of the campsite or even another address?*


I did wonder that as they go to the same one each year but also move to other sites in Spain after a few weeks.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

xabiachica said:


> I guess if their caravan is pitched on a site where there are permanent residents the local ayto might accept that address.
> 
> 
> Even if they have managed to register on the padrón, as I said, it makes no difference at all to their right to residency.
> ...


Im sure you are right on that and personally believe what they are doing, or trying to, will prove their eventual downfall. I think many long term UK tourists will now be looking around for any loophole they think they can use.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

Megsmum said:


> When you say “applied”. What do you mean, Afaik you have to go to the ayuntamiento to get on padrón complete with passports and proof of address? You then collect your padrón certificate the next day BUT that’s only technically valid for three months although you remain on the padrón until you leave. However in our case, in the last year the Ayuntamiento have sent police local to anyone listed on the padrón who has now renewed it for three years to confirm presence at address?!


Wherever people go to register is what i meant by applied.

They are expecting to stay for six months as they do every year so if as you say it's only valid for three month, what they're doing seems a bit stupid.


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## Mud (Oct 9, 2013)

Out of curiosity, will you be telling them all this and insisting that they make sure it's all in order? Or is it the kind of friend/acquantance that you know will just do that they want regardless of the rules?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

iris muddy said:


> Out of curiosity, will you be telling them all this and insisting that they make sure it's all in order? Or is it the kind of friend/acquantance that you know will just do that they want regardless of the rules?


In my experience it doesn't matter what you tell people, even if you show them official information about what they ought to do, they will still do exactly as they please.


I've spent years advising new-comers of their rights & obligations, & the best I can hope is that they will do the right thing.

However I know for a fact that there are people in my town who have lived here for years, who have or have had children in the Spanish education system, who work here unregistered & also have an income from abroad which they don't declare here.

Others who are pensioners but don't 'live' here, despite spending almost the entire year here, year after year, just returning 'home' to the UK for visits or medical treatment.

I don't report them. I don't judge them - they all have what are _to them_ valid reasons for not getting 'legal'.


But they are the ones now coming unstuck & either returning to the UK or frantically trying to get their paperwork in order.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Caroline99 said:


> Wherever people go to register is what i meant by applied.
> 
> They are expecting to stay for six months as they do every year so if as you say it's only valid for three month, what they're doing seems a bit stupid.


The three months issue raised by Megsmum needs to be clarified.

Once you sign on the Padron, you remain "empadronado" until you either move and register at another address, de-register because you leave the country, or if there is a census in which it is determined that you no longer live at the address. You do not lose your status of "empadronado" after 3 months.

However, the documents which the authority issue to prove your "empadronamiento" for official purposes ("certificado" or "volante" depending on which one you need), such as change of address on a driving license or to register a vehicle, are only valid for three months, this is true for many official documents in Spain, even the birth certificate.


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## Mud (Oct 9, 2013)

living in France for a bit made me familiar with the 3 month validity thing which gets really ridiculous and inconvenient for busy people.... not looking forward to that...

but yeah as for people who dont do the proper registration stuff and just live in the country as they please... that is really spooky and id be having sleepless nights until i put things in order if it was me...

though i also wouldnt report anyone not abiding by residency stuff, because it doesnt seem like a 'bad' or 'evil' thing to do


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

iris muddy said:


> though i also wouldnt report anyone not abiding by residency stuff, because it doesnt seem like a 'bad' or 'evil' thing to do



I suppose it depends on whether you think that breaking the law is a bad thing or not, or are we free to pick and choose which laws should,or should not, apply to us?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

iris muddy said:


> living in France for a bit made me familiar with the 3 month validity thing which gets really ridiculous and inconvenient for busy people.... not looking forward to that...
> 
> but yeah as for people who dont do the proper registration stuff and just live in the country as they please... that is really spooky and id be having sleepless nights until i put things in order if it was me...
> 
> though i also wouldnt report anyone not abiding by residency stuff, because it doesnt seem like a 'bad' or 'evil' thing to do


I think you still may have misunderstood.

Once you are on the padron, that's it - nothing else to do!

If you are asked to show a padron certificate, then it must be less than 3 months old. Just pop to the town hall and request a new one. There are no checks, just as simple as that.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

iris muddy said:


> Out of curiosity, will you be telling them all this and insisting that they make sure it's all in order? Or is it the kind of friend/acquantance that you know *will just do that they want regardless of the rules?*


They aren't friends and the latter (in bold) will no doubt be the case in their instance as pointed out by xabiachica


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

xabiachica said:


> In my experience it doesn't matter what you tell people, even if you show them official information about what they ought to do, they will still do exactly as they please.
> 
> 
> I've spent years advising new-comers of their rights & obligations, & the best I can hope is that they will do the right thing.
> ...


Must admit that annoys me when _some_ British here in UK believe the NHS is abused by immigrants where in reality the most widespread abuse is by 'our own' coming back for exactly that reason. 

It's ironic that Brexiters rant about undocumented illegals here in the UK whilst doing exactly that themselves in Spain, France or wherever.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

Relyat said:


> I suppose it depends on whether you think that breaking the law is a bad thing or not, or are we free to pick and choose which laws should,or should not, apply to us?


Exactly. This may not be the best example but similar to the Padron, here in UK we have an electoral register recording names of each person at an address. It's a compulsory requirement to fill in the annual voting registration and a criminal offence if you don't which could result in a fine up to £1000.


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## Mud (Oct 9, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> I think you still may have misunderstood.
> 
> Once you are on the padron, that's it - nothing else to do!
> 
> If you are asked to show a padron certificate, then it must be less than 3 months old. Just pop to the town hall and request a new one. There are no checks, just as simple as that.


i understand that  its just whenever you do any procedure requiring new paperwork. those things are annoying; in canada papers just stay valid to use for procedures, as far as i remember


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## Mud (Oct 9, 2013)

Relyat said:


> I suppose it depends on whether you think that breaking the law is a bad thing or not, or are we free to pick and choose which laws should,or should not, apply to us?



i abide by the law and think that breaking it is bad, for myself. so i act on that in my life. but i probably wont go out of my way to get someone in trouble for their decision to not sign up in the country where they live as they are supposed to... but something more serious, then id have to think about what to do


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

An update on this;

This neighbour has now returned back home so just shy of almost 7 months in Spain and according to my next door neighbour, all they've done is fill in a padron form which they claim entitles them to "residency". Like me, my neighbour also thinks they are acting illegally but neither of us fully understand Spanish laws. What is clear is the main reason they have come back is his wife needs an operation and they are using NHS for it which i don't think is right, certainly morally but also questionable if it's legitimate.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> An update on this;
> 
> This neighbour has now returned back home so just shy of almost 7 months in Spain and according to my next door neighbour, all they've done is fill in a padron form which they claim entitles them to "residency". Like me, my neighbour also thinks they are acting illegally but neither of us fully understand Spanish laws. What is clear is the main reason they have come back is his wife needs an operation and they are using NHS for it which i don't think is right, certainly morally but also questionable if it's legitimate.


 It isn't legal. 

There will always be people who break the rules, of course so that they can reap benefits and s*d the rest of us who pay for it. What gets me most is how people who do this tend to think that the system is there to play. They genuinely can't see how this actually harms the systems that they are breaking.
It's hard, but I would like to think that I would say my piece then back away. 

Don't let it get to you. Different people play their lives by different rules. It's not ok, but it's what happens.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *It isn't legal.*
> 
> There will always be people who break the rules, of course so that they can reap benefits and s*d the rest of us who pay for it. What gets me most is how people who do this tend to think that the system is there to play. They genuinely can't see how this actually harms the systems that they are breaking.
> It's hard, but I would like to think that I would say my piece then back away.
> ...


I thought not. Amazingly the guy is brazen as hell about it and been openly boasting how easy it was and they never had any problem either there or coming back through Uk border control. Oh and guess what - both are fanatical Brexit because they want to stop freedom of movement and dont like foreigners in Uk! It does seem whatever is going on in Spain, they aren't enforcing their residency laws or rules but i'm also surprised at our border control too.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> I thought not. Amazingly the guy is brazen as hell about it and been openly boasting how easy it was and they never had any problem either there or coming back through Uk border control. Oh and guess what - both are fanatical Brexit because they want to stop freedom of movement and dont like foreigners in Uk! It does seem whatever is going on in Spain, they aren't enforcing their residency laws or rules but i'm also surprised at our border control too.


Being empadronado isn't going to give them freedom of movement anyway. They'd have to be registered residents for that - & even then they'd only have the freedom to be in Spain, not anywhere else in the EU.


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## Caroline99 (Dec 1, 2018)

xabiaxica said:


> Being empadronado isn't going to give them freedom of movement anyway. They'd have to be registered residents for that - & even then they'd only have the freedom to be in Spain, not anywhere else in the EU.


They seem to think having a padron does though. I could perhaps understand it better if their caravan was permanently sited in Spain but it's not. It's a touring caravan they tow there each year and even use the campsite address to claim as "normally resident" which surely cannot be legit? Assuming Uk exits the Eu then i'd expect returning British to face serious questions at border control but so far it's not happening.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Caroline99 said:


> They seem to think having a padron does though. I could perhaps understand it better if their caravan was permanently sited in Spain but it's not. It's a touring caravan they tow there each year and even use the campsite address to claim as "normally resident" which surely cannot be legit? Assuming Uk exits the Eu then i'd expect returning British to face serious questions at border control but so far it's not happening.


Yes, IF it happens, holidaying Brits will be treated as all other 3rd country citizens, & their passports will be stamped. 

The ONLY accepted proof of residency is the resident registration card/cert. 

A padrón cert won't get them anywhere. They might even find themselves in hot water for claiming to be full-time residents & not submitting tax returns.


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