# Wealth tax payment denied



## keybler (May 15, 2020)

I am trying to pay the wealth tax but my bank account was opened with a passport. Agencia Tributaria tries to validate my NIE against the account so it fails when I try to pay with my IBAN. Same for credit card payments. My bank refuses to add the NIE to the account as I only have an A4 paper NIE rather than a card as I am not a resident. I can't believe how much time I have spent trying to solve such a simple issue. They simply will not take my payments, it is incredible. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks!


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

As you are not resident I suspect you may mean imputed tax on a holiday property and not wealth tax. 

Please forgive me if that is not so


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

keybler said:


> I am trying to pay the wealth tax but my bank account was opened with a passport. Agencia Tributaria tries to validate my NIE against the account so it fails when I try to pay with my IBAN. Same for credit card payments. My bank refuses to add the NIE to the account as I only have an A4 paper NIE rather than a card as I am not a resident. I can't believe how much time I have spent trying to solve such a simple issue. They simply will not take my payments, it is incredible. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks!


This is probably not what you want to hear, but I may have a solution:

This "problem" is coming from some banks' interpretation of a new(ish) law which really says nothing more than the the fact that the certificate of registration of EU citizens is not a valid ID document and can't be used for proof of ID in banks in the measures against money laundering.

The result of this is that some banks no longer accept the NIE number as the ID number of the client because that number appears on the green cert. This is the case in Bankia for example where I have banked using my NIE as my ID number for over 15 years. I now have had to give them my passport as my new ID and my passport number is my new ID number. So, if I try to pay Hacienda with that account I will probably have the same problem.

But, other banks have not taken the illogical jump from Green Cert not being an ID to the NIE being invalid. I also have an account in Deutsche Bank who have not made this ridiculous change. SO I will use that account.

In summary, open another account in a bank which accepts the NIE.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

An NIE nor the green paper certificate have ever been valid ID. In fact the green certificate has that printed on it

For Brits the only legal ID is their. original passport or a copy certified by the passport office or the British consulate. Nothing else 

I know quite often other bits of paper are accepted as ID but that does not change the law if a person insists on seeing your legal ID.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Juan C said:


> An NIE nor the green paper certificate have ever been valid ID. In fact the green certificate has that printed on it
> 
> For Brits the only legal ID is their. original passport or a copy certified by the passport office or the British consulate. Nothing else
> 
> I know quite often other bits of paper are accepted as ID but that does not change the law if a person insists on seeing your legal ID.



It is the money laundering protection that is new and has made some banks stop accepting the NIE as an ID number for clients. This is new. It has nothing to do with the fact that the Certificate is not a valid form of ID, that link which you erroneously make is the same link that some banks make also.

If I can evidence my NIE by means of a document which satisfies the bank's legal obligation to identify me (e.g. a driving licence) then they have no grounds to use the new law to make me use my passport, but this is what they are doing.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

“I know quite often other bits of paper are accepted as ID but that does not change the law if a person insists on seeing your legal ID.“

https://www.google.es/amp/s/www.rondatoday.com/carrying-id-when-living-in-spain/amp/

Extract ;/ 


In fact under Spanish law we are wrong. Everyone in Spain must carry government issued ID at all times, regardless of whether we are Spanish, an EU national, or a foreigner living or holidaying in the country. The specific law is Article 4 of Organic Law 4/2000 which states in unambiguous terms that foreign nationals in Spain must carry identity documents issued by the country of citizenship. The operative word is ‘carry’ – not to be confused with keep at home.

Thus, if you are visiting or living in Spain, and you don’t have Spanish government issued photo ID, you must carry at all times your own nation’s photo ID, in the case of British citizens this means our passport.


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Overandout said:


> They have no grounds to use the new law to make me use my passport, but this is what they are doing.


Hola 

The only legal ID of a British passport holder is their passport. However there comes a problem when said passport expires because the new passport has a different number - it causes "fun & games" 

Davexf


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have posted several legal references to Spanish laws and jurisprudence when this argument came up before and I'm not going to do it again now. If you don't believe me that's fine but the facts are that there is no single law on what is "legally accepted" as ID, because it depends on the purpose of the enquiry and who is requesting the ID.

In this case, a bank complying with anti-money laundering legislation, there is no obstacle in law to them associating your account to your NIE, this is simply a step further that some banks have taken.

If the OP can find a bank that still accepts the NIE as the identification number and has a document which identifies him with that number on it, this is a possible solution to his problem. He can decide if he wants to try to follow it up. 

The law stated by Juan is totally irrelevant for this thread, it has nothing to do with the legislation controlling financial institutions' obligations.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Dave. We clearly agree on legal ID

overandout. We appear to be at odds. The OP has not clarified what he was trying to achieve. Wealth Tax or tax on a property. Thus some of the comments here may be irrelevant.

Sorry if I clouded the waters but banks need to know who their customers are. For that they need proof of ID. Which for Brits is a passport. 

The ‘irrelevant’ Law, to which I referred https://www.ref-world.org/pdfid/402237554.pdf, includes :-

“Article 4. The Right to Documentation.
1. Foreign nationals in Spanish territory have the right and the obligation to possess documentation which accredits their identity, issued by the competent authorities of their native countries or places of origin, as well as that which accredits their situation in Spain.”

I am sure we agree that means a passport,

Regards. John


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

If you check the OP other posts they have a part time home. Not a full time resident in Spain. The USA flag also likely means the OP is American.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

NickZ said:


> If you check the OP other posts they have a part time home. Not a full time resident in Spain. The USA flag also likely means the OP is American.


Thanks Nick. 

That is why I thought it was not Wealth Tax, but tax on a property the OP owns. 

Regard. John


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Juan C said:


> Dave. We clearly agree on legal ID
> 
> overandout. We appear to be at odds. The OP has not clarified what he was trying to achieve. Wealth Tax or tax on a property. Thus some of the comments here may be irrelevant.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are at odds. 

Once again.

The law you quote is NOT the reason for the banks to change the way they identify customers.

You are referring to a law on immigration. This is of no interest to the banks and is not something they are obliged to comply with. In fact the law you quote came into force in 2000. IF this was the relevant law, why would the banks have waited 20 years to implement the changes in account details?

The new regulation which the banks are trying to comply with and which is giving the OP problems is the AML5 Directive which deals with how financial entities identify users in remote transactions. 

As I said, I am not getting into an argument on what constitutes "ID" in Spain again. 

And don't worry, I comply with Law 04/2000. It's just that my bank couldn't care less.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

keybler said:


> I am trying to pay the wealth tax but my bank account was opened with a passport. Agencia Tributaria tries to validate my NIE against the account so it fails when I try to pay with my IBAN. Same for credit card payments. My bank refuses to add the NIE to the account as I only have an A4 paper NIE rather than a card as I am not a resident. I can't believe how much time I have spent trying to solve such a simple issue. They simply will not take my payments, it is incredible. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks!


As a non-resident (having only an NIE), you are not a tax-resident and so do NOT have to pay wealth tax.

Are you perhaps confusing the tax with something else?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

snikpoh said:


> As a non-resident (having only an NIE), you are not a tax-resident and so do NOT have to pay wealth tax.
> 
> Are you perhaps confusing the tax with something else?


Just to clarify 

https://www.blevinsfranks.com/quarterly/Spanish-wealth-tax-basics

Extract :- 

Spanish wealth tax is payable by residents and non-residents based on assets held at 31 December each year, including property, investments, bank accounts, jewellery, art, cars, boats, etc. Spanish residents are liable on their worldwide assets, while non-residents are liable to wealth tax only on Spanish assets.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

In case anyone is interested in the implications of AML5:

It is an EU Directive which supersedes AML4 (no surprises there!) which was the Directive which caused the banks to threaten to freeze people's accounts if they didn't present their DNIs / passports in the bank a while back. AT that point, there was no real need to change the ID numbers linked to the accounts, it was simply a requirement to physically check the ID of a person.

But AML5 goes further. It came into force on 10th January in Spain and requires banks ti take further steps to identify people using transaction services by phone or internet. Obviously, if you read the Directive, it doesn't expressly state that banks in Spain cannot identify their customers using the NIE as it is not that country specific.

But the implications for the banks is that they have to improve the way they identify people remotely. For example, in Deutsche Bank, before AML5, I entered the phone bank or internet bank by using my NIE and an access code given to me when I opened the account. Then I signed the transaction with a code which was derived from a table on a chart which again I was given when I opened the account.

This is not in line with AML5 because someone who knows my NIE and has the code and chart can enter my account pretending to be me for as long as I don't know that this is happening and advise the bank.

Deutsche Bank has decided therefore to scrap the use of the entry code, and instead send an OTP to my mobile phone. This is all they deem necessary for the compliance with AML5.

Bankia on the other hand have decided that the access to their systems using the NIE is not compliant with AML5 and therefore are making customers from the EU use their passports.

It is a case of interpretation of the Directive, but the banks who are making the NIE useless for this purpose are not taking the most logical steps to comply and have not thought about the consequences of changing the account identifiers to numbers not recognised by the state where the account is held.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Overandout said:


> In case anyone is interested in the implications of AML5:
> 
> It is an EU Directive which supersedes AML4 (no surprises there!) which was the Directive which caused the banks to threaten to freeze people's accounts if they didn't present their DNIs / passports in the bank a while back. AT that point, there was no real need to change the ID numbers linked to the accounts, it was simply a requirement to physically check the ID of a person.
> 
> ...


Husband went to bank today and had to present passport. He wanted to pay some money in, has to return on Monday as the system won’t be updated. We also receive a text etc and online banking has a few more requirements


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Overandout said:


> In case anyone is interested in the implications of AML5:
> 
> It is an EU Directive which supersedes AML4 (no surprises there!) which was the Directive which caused the banks to threaten to freeze people's accounts if they didn't present their DNIs / passports in the bank a while back. AT that point, there was no real need to change the ID numbers linked to the accounts, it was simply a requirement to physically check the ID of a person.
> 
> ...


Each bank is protecting it own back as it sees fit, which is not surprising. The US in particular (and the US has a major role in the origin of all these money laundering requirements) is known to pursue banks on this and related issues and to issue fines which can be in the millions or hundreds of millions of Euros.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

One thing to remember is that for a document to be considered valid proof of ID it must of course bear a photo.

Clearly NIE's, resident cards, padrons and the like do not fulfil that.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

MataMata said:


> One thing to remember is that for a document to be considered valid proof of ID it must of course bear a photo.
> 
> Clearly NIE's, resident cards, padrons and the like do not fulfil that.


The ONLY legal proof of ID for someone from the UK is their passport.

Even a driving licence is NOT legal proof although some people/places may accept it.

When ever I have to work in the courts, they will only accept a passport.


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## badImage (Jun 11, 2013)

Overandout said:


> This is not in line with AML5 because someone who knows my NIE and has the code and chart can enter my account pretending to be me for as long as I don't know that this is happening and advise the bank.
> 
> Deutsche Bank has decided therefore to scrap the use of the entry code, and instead send an OTP to my mobile phone. This is all they deem necessary for the compliance with AML5.


The changes to online banking and requiring secure access like OTPs comes not from AML5 but from PSD2 Directive (Payment Services Directive2) which requires SCA strong customer authentication.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

badImage said:


> The changes to online banking and requiring secure access like OTPs comes not from AML5 but from PSD2 Directive (Payment Services Directive2) which requires SCA strong customer authentication.


Unless I am mistaken, PSD2 came into effect in 2015. 

Both the need to associate the Bankia accounts with a passport number instead of the Fiscal ID number and the changes to Deutche Bank's online ID protocol are from Q1 this year.

The Bankia changes are AML5 related and I assumed that because they happened at the same time, the Deutsche Bank ones were for the same reasons.

Possibly a wrong assumption I admit, but I do find it odd that they would have waited 5 years to act on the PSD2 regulations.


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## badImage (Jun 11, 2013)

PSD came into effect 2015, yes, but it only had to been enacted into local law until January 13th 2018, and then again Germany incorporated the law on this date, whereas for example Austrian implementation is only from June 2018. Furthermore, no later than September 2019, banks where to provide Secure Customer Authentication and (authorized) access to the bank accounts via API to third party developers/providers. Nearly every bank in Germany made the switch in September, Deutsche Bank for example September 11th (https://www.deutsche-bank.de/pk/lp/psd2.html). My french bank switched already in March 2019.

I just checked again and I see they got an extension:

14 September 2019: The final deadline for all companies within the EU to comply with PSD2's Regulatory Technical Standard (RTS) pertaining to directive (EU) 2015/2366 (PSD2)
31 December 2020: Extended deadline for all companies within the EU to implement PSD2's Strong Customer Authentication (SCA).


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