# updating the 720 assets form



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

The 720 has to be resubmitted if the value of accounts, investments has grown by 20,000euros.
I've also read that if any accounts are closed it has to be resubmitted irrespective of the amount, and any account number changes too.
I seem to remember someone on this forum writing that he changed all his account numbers the day after submitting the form-that worked well, didn't it?
Are people really going to go through this nightmare again, and the expense of a gestor/accountant for the only reason that they have closed a tiny savings account? 
Some accounts close and start up again within the same bank -surely that doesn't warrant a new submission?
The only ones laughing are the financial advisors!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Get a digital certificate and do it yourself online?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Get a digital certificate and do it yourself online?


I 'm stressed enough already!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have got rid of some of my assets, the advisor advised, no need to re submit unless assets increase by €20,000, this was also confirmed by another of the same ilk. 

Hopefully soon all my bits and bats will be stashed in a none CGT wrapper, that does not require a further 720 submission.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hepa said:


> I have got rid of some of my assets, the advisor advised, no need to re submit unless assets increase by €20,000, this was also confirmed by another of the same ilk.
> 
> Hopefully soon all my bits and bats will be stashed in a none CGT wrapper, that does not require a further 720 submission.


This is incorrect. If any of the account details have altered (like you've got rid of an asset), then you need to make a new submission. However, I can well believe that not many will actually do that.

_[by-the-way, it's 'NON CGT' and not 'NONE CGT' - but then I'm a pedant and that just grates with me]_


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> This is incorrect. If any of the account details have altered (like you've got rid of an asset), then you need to make a new submission. However, I can well believe that not many will actually do that.
> 
> _[by-the-way, it's 'NON CGT' and not 'NONE CGT' - but then I'm a pedant and that just grates with me]_


You say this is not correct, two completely different money men, both different nationalities will differ with you, perhaps you should check again, this advice was given to me only this week, three weeks ago both opinions differed, but now they are both adamant that I do not need to resubmit.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The 720 has to be resubmitted if the value of accounts, investments has grown by 20,000euros.
> I've also read that if any accounts are closed it has to be resubmitted irrespective of the amount, and any account number changes too.
> I seem to remember someone on this forum writing that he changed all his account numbers the day after submitting the form-that worked well, didn't it?
> Are people really going to go through this nightmare again, and the expense of a gestor/accountant for the only reason that they have closed a tiny savings account?
> ...


No..I'm laughing at the unnecessary stress you are causing yourself! Wel, I'm notblaughing, really. I'm sorry and perplexed that your obsession over this form is spoiling your enjoyment of life here.
Give it a break for the sake of your health and sanilty!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> No..I'm laughing at the unnecessary stress you are causing yourself! Wel, I'm notblaughing, really. I'm sorry and perplexed that your obsession over this form is spoiling your enjoyment of life here.
> Give it a break for the sake of your health and sanilty!


But I can laugh - it is one of the luxuries afforded me by being poor - I don't know nor need to even know what a Form 720 is!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But I can laugh - it is one of the luxuries afforded me by being poor - I don't know nor need to even know what a Form 720 is!


It's a form, comme les autres,irritating, time- consuming and bureaucratic, no doubt ..
But to my knowledge no- one has been clapped in irons, imprisoned or shot for making mistakes in filling it in or it seems for not filling it in, according to a report in the local press which alleged that very few immigrants had completed it.
If you want to go on living in Spain it's something you have to deal with, either d.i.y or via a competent advisor.
But no way should it hang over yourblife like the sword of .Damocles..


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

To be honest , I fail to see why this flipping thing keeps cropping up. You live in Spain you pay the taxes. you live in Africa you pay the taxes you live in the UK you pay the taxes. Yes I know we are not there yet, but I am ******ed if I am going to spend whatever time I have stressing about stuff I cannot change, it is what it is, and as Balid says, rather than being too posh to push I am too poor to care, Sounds harsh 
but:amen:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

cambio said:


> To be honest , I fail to see why this flipping thing keeps cropping up. You live in Spain you pay the taxes. you live in Africa you pay the taxes you live in the UK you pay the taxes. Yes I know we are not there yet, but I am ******ed if I am going to spend whatever time I have stressing about stuff I cannot change, it is what it is, and as Balid says, rather than being too posh to push I am too poor to care, Sounds harsh
> but:amen:


With that outlook I can see you will have a very enjoyable new life in Spain.
Today I had three different medical appointments. The first was at our village surgery at the ungodly hour of 8.21..the precise timing always amuses me. At that time of the day the village was just beginning to stir. The regulars were sitting outside the cafes with their cafe and tostada, the sun was shining, the sky was blue..in the consultorio I had a chat with the woman who runs the local tabac/post office..well, she sells stamps...and the one other client, who later waved cheerfully at me when he saw me later in the street. I had never seen him before.
It was a truly great start to the day. The sun was hot before nine o'clock. 
Meanwhile, Britain was bracing itself for yet another storm of the century.
How on earth anyone fortunate enough to be able to live a day like today in this lovely country can be so unaware of how lucky they are and to worry about such an unimportant thing as modelo,720 or modelo 6663/4 for that matter is truly beyond me.
Life is just too short..carpe diem!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

The 720 is not just any old form- due to the way it has been brought it in, with its draconian penalties for inadvertent mistakes, errors etc it has blighted the life of many to the extent that they want to get out of Spain, and some thinking of moving to Spain are having second thoughts and either won't move here or will become non resident. These people are not crooks-they want transparency, but they do object to every financial private detail being entered online. They feel the vulnerable and insecure. Financial advisors disagree about what to include or exclude, which doesn't help.The fact that on several different forums there are more than 24 pages devoted to this thread indicates there are many anguished people out there!
What people really object to is the fact that the Hacienda does not seem to be trying very hard to round up all the tax avoiders , who haveno intention of paying taxes here, yet the taxman finds it easier to concentrate on those trying to do the right thing. 

As to being poor, well, if you have 12 years funding put by, that's not being poor. There are many retired military, teachers,civil servants out here on very comfortable pensions; As they are always stating how much cheaper it is to live here, they must be salting large amounts away, so they are not poor!perhaps it's all in SPanish compliant bonds, so they don't have to worry about the 720?
Of course it's nice to enjoy the weather and relax, talking to nice people, eat menus del dia etc, but if things like the 720 and changes to IHT laws are causing concerns, then it is impossible to live that so called stress free life.


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I 'm stressed enough already!


It is not so difficult so long as you are not too far away from an office where you need to attend in person just once to authenticate your identity. I found that the system worked very efficiently and now we have the digital certificates, all our transactions with the Hacienda can be conducted on-line - la Renta, Modelo 720 and access to our transaction and communication history.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

ivorra said:


> It is not so difficult so long as you are not too far away from an office where you need to attend in person just once to authenticate your identity. I found that the system worked very efficiently and now we have the digital certificates, all our transactions with the Hacienda can be conducted on-line - la Renta, Modelo 720 and access to our transaction and communication history.


Don't think the average ex pat wants to tackle these forms themselves, and certainly not online!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have heard that the 720 is something of a flop, insomuch that the office collating and dealing with the information number only 17 souls, and because of the immense volume of material submitted last year, plus the fact that due to lack of funds, no further staff can be expected in the foreseeable future. It is most unlikely that any further action will be taken for a long time.

If you really want to clog up the system, submit more returns, preferably in Arabic, Manderin or Cantonese

Don't worry, it is bad for ones health………...


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

extranjero said:


> The 720 is not just any old form- due to the way it has been brought it in, with its draconian penalties for inadvertent mistakes, errors etc it has blighted the life of many to the extent that they want to get out of Spain, and some thinking of moving to Spain are having second thoughts and either won't move here or will become non resident. These people are not crooks-they want transparency, but they do object to every financial private detail being entered online. They feel the vulnerable and insecure. Financial advisors disagree about what to include or exclude, which doesn't help.The fact that on several different forums there are more than 24 pages devoted to this thread indicates there are many anguished people out there!
> What people really object to is the fact that the Hacienda does not seem to be trying very hard to round up all the tax avoiders , who haveno intention of paying taxes here, yet the taxman finds it easier to concentrate on those trying to do the right thing.
> 
> As to being poor, well, if you have 12 years funding put by, that's not being poor. There are many retired military, teachers,civil servants out here on very comfortable pensions; As they are always stating how much cheaper it is to live here, they must be salting large amounts away, so they are not poor!perhaps it's all in SPanish compliant bonds, so they don't have to worry about the 720?
> Of course it's nice to enjoy the weather and relax, talking to nice people, eat menus del dia etc, but if things like the 720 and changes to IHT laws are causing concerns, then it is impossible to live that so called stress free life.


Yes it does, because you do not know what that funding is or how much. Its all relative, You have taken that line out of context from a previous post, where i said we could have bought a bigger more expensive house to rent out/holiday lets etc , but have chosen to put the difference aside to create a top up of my very small NHS pension, rather than rely on rental income. Knowing that our income will be small but reliable, having even added in for inflation. What is poor anyway, you only have to start a cost of living thread on here to realise everyones needs are different.

What we have in the bank is our affair and do not presume it is a lot I could assume that you have so much in overseas assets that is why you seem to labor this point on a regular basis thereby have lots to loose by declaring .( although I thought you declared in not pay on it) The 720 is, as I understand a form that you fill in if you have assets overseas worth more than 50K. It does not say you have to pay tax on it. Inheritance tax, yes that came as a shock however, nothing I can do, if one of us dies we will just have to try and work it through, If I may so bold to put my very ignorant take on this subject. Having spent 18 months reading on forums, researching what does and what does not affect us ,I have come to the conclusion that, it is mainly those who have not been quite up front with their tax returns etc in the past, who happily lived the Spanish black market way, who did not think that the income they got from the house in surrey was taxable are now getting themselves in a two and 8. I am not saying this is the OP but it is how I feel. When times are tough governments suddenly want what was always due, and will find new ways of getting more, that is, as Frank says Life. 

As for me being poor, I have a set income from my pension, our savings will eventually run out, we will eventually have a UK pension/NHS pension, poor compared to those you mention yes, and compared to those who are supposed to declare overseas assets, have a house in the UK. But Compared to my Spanish counterpart, trying to eek a living no.
My point with my post was simply if you do not like it then the options open are simple pay or go where you do not have to pay tax. 


Life is far to short to worry I am off to finish packingarty:


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hepa said:


> You say this is not correct, two completely different money men, both different nationalities will differ with you, perhaps you should check again, this advice was given to me only this week, three weeks ago both opinions differed, but now they are both adamant that I do not need to resubmit.


Regardless of what advice people are being given, it's much simpler to read the Modelo 720 guidelines (if one can read Spanish that is). In there, unless my Spanish is failing me, it clearly states that if an asset is removed or account numbers change, then a new declaration must be made. (paraphrased of course).

Thinking about it logically, of course any big changes like account numbers changing or accounts being closed, have to be notified.


At the end of the day, one must do what one believes to be correct (for them that is).


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> Regardless of what advice people are being given, it's much simpler to read the Modelo 720 guidelines (if one can read Spanish that is). In there, unless my Spanish is failing me, it clearly states that if an asset is removed or account numbers change, then a new declaration must be made. (paraphrased of course).
> 
> Thinking about it logically, of course any big changes like account numbers changing or accounts being closed, have to be notified.
> 
> ...


Spot on.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Regardless of what advice people are being given, it's much simpler to read the Modelo 720 guidelines (if one can read Spanish that is). In there, unless my Spanish is failing me, it clearly states that if an asset is removed or account numbers change, then a new declaration must be made. (paraphrased of course).
> 
> Thinking about it logically, of course any big changes like account numbers changing or accounts being closed, have to be notified.
> 
> ...


Apparently fresh guide line were received


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## ivorra (Sep 24, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Don't think the average ex pat wants to tackle these forms themselves, and certainly not online!


Apologies, I didn't intend to sound superior, I am sure we are no different to the average ex-pat! We ended up being our own 'gestoras' by a long road of over 15 years of dealing with the Hacienda as non - and for the most part - resident Spanish tax payers. In that time we have suffered bad advice, incompetence and indifference from various professionals for which we have paid substantial fees. But the worst we got was from the Hacienda's own free service (Programa de Ayuda) who submitted the tax returns on our behalf with great misgivings by us but on their insistence that the figures were correct. I was later fined for the trouble. After that experience, having learnt a lot from it and most importantly having a model (the corrected tax returns written by Hacienda's own auditing contractor) from which to work we decided we could not do worse by tackling the whole thing ourselves. Time will tell if it was the right decision...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

ivorra said:


> Apologies, I didn't intend to sound superior, I am sure we are no different to the average ex-pat! We ended up being our own 'gestoras' by a long road of over 15 years of dealing with the Hacienda as non - and for the most part - resident Spanish tax payers. In that time we have suffered bad advice, incompetence and indifference from various professionals for which we have paid substantial fees. But the worst we got was from the Hacienda's own free service (Programa de Ayuda) who submitted the tax returns on our behalf with great misgivings by us but on their insistence that the figures were correct. I was later fined for the trouble. After that experience, having learnt a lot from it and most importantly having a model (the corrected tax returns written by Hacienda's own auditing contractor) from which to work we decided we could not do worse by tackling the whole thing ourselves. Time will tell if it was the right decision...


Impressive !!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The 720 is not just any old form- due to the way it has been brought it in, with its draconian penalties for inadvertent mistakes, errors etc it has blighted the life of many to the extent that they want to get out of Spain, and some thinking of moving to Spain are having second thoughts and either won't move here or will become non resident. These people are not crooks-they want transparency, but they do object to every financial private detail being entered online. They feel the vulnerable and insecure. Financial advisors disagree about what to include or exclude, which doesn't help.The fact that on several different forums there are more than 24 pages devoted to this thread indicates there are many anguished people out there!
> What people really object to is the fact that the Hacienda does not seem to be trying very hard to round up all the tax avoiders , who haveno intention of paying taxes here, yet the taxman finds it easier to concentrate on those trying to do the right thing.
> 
> As to being poor, well, if you have 12 years funding put by, that's not being poor. There are many retired military, teachers,civil servants out here on very comfortable pensions; As they are always stating how much cheaper it is to live here, they must be salting large amounts away, so they are not poor!perhaps it's all in SPanish compliant bonds, so they don't have to worry about the 720?
> Of course it's nice to enjoy the weather and relax, talking to nice people, eat menus del dia etc, but if things like the 720 and changes to IHT laws are causing concerns, then it is impossible to live that so called stress free life.


Oh yes it is. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of us are doing just that. We do not get 'stressed' about what is nothing more than filing in a form, something you did when you became a Spanish tax resident. If you have no non- productive assets then you will already have disclosed all this 'private' information anyway.
I am not surprised that you have found so many pages of 'anguished' people. Many of these people probably shouldn't have come to Spain in the first place. Some British immigrants seem to think that everything in Spain should be tailored to their convenience. No doubt many of them will now be ' anguished' because they can't watch Eastenders or Coronation Street. 
On the one hand you seem to be pleading poverty, complaining about the cost of living, on the other you seem to think that all those retired people on very comfortable pensions are wealthy. Yet you obviously have enough stashed away if modelo 720 applies to you.  but if some of these 'wealthy' people have had the sense to put their £ multi-'millions in Spanish- compliant bonds, the question begs to be asked: why didn'tyou do just that, instead of making a huge fuss about what most people have managed to accomplish with ease.

You have complained about crime. Modelo 720, the cost of living....if you dislike Spain so much, why are you still here? We disliked Prague. We moved. We wouldn't stay in a place where we were so unhappy.
But we didn't assume that our feelings were typical of the majority. 
Most British immigrants in Prague were no doubt perfectly happy to be there.
Just as most of us are happy to have made our homes in Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Oh and as for people salting large amounts away, as you put it....why would anyone who has retired after working for three or four decades want to do that?
Money is for spending when you get to a Certain Age. When we left the UK I had a lot of money in the bank. And you know what? I'm steadily getting through it before the last purchase made for if not by me is a wooden box.
Since retirement OH and I have travelled widely, stayed in the best hotels, bought top- of- the range cars and whatever we liked that we could afford. Why the hell not? After thirty or forty years of work it's time to spend, not save. Old bones need comfort!
No way would I have wanted my Mum to go without in her old age to leave dosh for me and my son doesn't expect to find more than the cost of a very basic interment and a party when my clogs are popped.If púI have money in the bank when I die I shall howl from my grave in fury. Thankfully OH is of the same opinion.
So 'salting away' sounds to me like the last word in foolishness for the retired.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh and as for people salting large amounts away, as you put it....why would anyone who has retired after working for three or four decades want to do that?
> Money is for spending when you get to a Certain Age. When we left the UK I had a lot of money in the bank. And you know what? I'm steadily getting through it before the last purchase made for if not by me is a wooden box.
> Since retirement OH and I have travelled widely, stayed in the best hotels, bought top- of- the range cars and whatever we liked that we could afford. Why the hell not? After thirty or forty years of work it's time to spend, not save. Old bones need comfort!
> No way would I have wanted my Mum to go without in her old age to leave dosh for me and my son doesn't expect to find more than the cost of a very basic interment and a party when my clogs are popped.If púI have money in the bank when I die I shall howl from my grave in fury. Thankfully OH is of the same opinion.
> So 'salting away' sounds to me like the last word in foolishness for the retired.


We do exercise a little caution. We have some in a Spanish bank account, I have my OAP and three very small pensions that give me about £240 per month but we do have the m-i-l (no pensions at all) living with us and since I am 18 years older than SWMBO, it is highly likely that she may have a few more years ahead of her when I shuffle off this mortal coil, so a bit in reserve may well come in handy in the future. We are also getting work done on the house bit by bit plus keeping our car reasonably up to date - last year we changed the car (we'd had the previous one 4½ years similar type and model), had a new roof on the house and a solar water heater installed plus replaced a couple of the wooden windows with uPVC (same colour similar style so not out of place). This year, so far, we plan on having the attic lined and the floor painted and a water softener installed.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> We do exercise a little caution. We have some in a Spanish bank account, I have my OAP and three very small pensions that give me about £240 per month but we do have the m-i-l (no pensions at all) living with us and since I am 18 years older than SWMBO, it is highly likely that she may have a few more years ahead of her when I shuffle off this mortal coil, so a bit in reserve may well come in handy in the future. We are also getting work done on the house bit by bit plus keeping our car reasonably up to date - last year we changed the car (we'd had the previous one 4½ years similar type and model), had a new roof on the house and a solar water heater installed plus replaced a couple of the wooden windows with uPVC (same colour similar style so not out of place). This year, so far, we plan on having the attic lined and the floor painted and a water softener installed.


We no longer own property, blessed relief, so no maintenance and our monthly income is enough to see us through our old(er) age, so having huge savings isn't really a necessity.
The things we enjoy most are free or almost so....walking, reading, listening to the radio, good company.
We do spend a lot on the dogs, though, as much each as for a person in top quality fresh and dried food plus glucosamine for Mean- and- Toothless Xena who experienced severe malnutrition before we adopted her. But they are our companions, they keep us healthy, we love them and so we give them the best we can afford.


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