# Culture shock



## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Most people considering moving to Mexico understandably want to be in an expat area, there is a comfort of the familiar in a strange country. But by doing so, they never really see how a lot of the population actually lives. 

We had the families that live near us come over recently for burgers. After a while, four of the boys told my wife they needed to use the bathroom. My wife showed them where it was and a few minutes later one of them came out and asked her for help. None of them knew how to flush the toilet. There is no plumbing in this community as far as bathrooms go, they utilize and "outhouse" for the lack of a better term. Even the one at their small school is a just a seat over a deep hole in a small room.

I needed to use the bathroom as well and little Omar was washing his hands so I stepped out and waited an adequate time for him to finish. I went back in and he was again pumping the liquid soap onto his hands, fascinated by it's feel and smell.

But it really hit home this week when we had Marianna over to clean. As a part of our toy drive we are also going to buy turkeys for the families for Christmas. My wife told her this and she confided that none of them have ovens. This is a simple fact but it stunned and disturbed me, it still does. We have been to a party there where they had bricks stacked up and a wood fire burning in the center. A pan was placed over the fire to warm the tortillas, the beans were cooked over the coals on the side.

On special occasions such as a wedding they do spring for a turkey, but they cut it up and boil it. This may sound gross to us but quantity beats quality and I guess it's what you are used to. My wife said her mother made turkey soup and it was delicious. If they can afford it and find it, mole is scooped over the boiled turkey but more often than not that does not happen as it isn't available locally and most never make it to the supermarket, as it is too far away and buy necessities from the small "stores" in peoples homes.

It still is unsettling that they can't afford an oven. When you live out among them you really get to see how they live.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Zorro2017 said:


> …
> It still is unsettling that they can't afford an oven. When you live out among them you really get to see how they live.


They may not be able to afford an oven, but even Mexicans with ovens rarely or never use them. It is just not the custom to bake things here.


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## denmex22 (Aug 17, 2015)

Thanks, Zorro2017, for this post. This should help us to understand the lifestyles of a large part of the Mexican population. If we have an understanding of the lifestyles, we can also have a better understanding of their culture. 
I, too, remember the little "outhouse" from seventy years ago in rural north Alabama.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> They may not be able to afford an oven, but even Mexicans with ovens rarely or never use them. It is just not the custom to bake things here.


I moved into a house in San Miguel de Allende some years ago which had a brand new stove. The oven control dial had no numbers, but had a picture of a chicken to represent the low and one of a pie for the high. No broiler, either.

The local Lions' club ran Sunday bus tours to places of interest in the area. One of them went to an old hacienda which was no longer occupied, but still owned by the family.
Family members were due to meet for a meal later in the day. The cooking facilities for this group consisted of several grills set up on the floor. 
There was also a ramp going to the upper floor suitable for a donkey to carry up supplies in former times.

It hasn't been so very long since life in the rural areas of the U.S. included outhouses, chamber pots and wood fired stoves. Baking was a real challenge to the cooks of that era. My grandma was renowned for her pies but was obviously tired of the wood fired number since she had the first electric stove in the area.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> They may not be able to afford an oven, but even Mexicans with ovens rarely or never use them. It is just not the custom to bake things here.


In our area they can't even afford the propane to fuel an oven, let alone an oven, let that sink in for just a moment. 

No hot showers at home, ever, but they are always clean as are their clothes. 

I think Marianna's family has a couple of burners only because her father receives a small pension, perhaps propane but more likely electric because of the cost and transporting of propane, most of the families around us cook with wood as it is free for the gathering, although wooded areas are slim because most of the land here is farmed. They have trouble believing that we are letting our land revert to natural forest.

The simple things that we take for granted just don't exist in their world.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> They may not be able to afford an oven, but even Mexicans with ovens rarely or never use them. It is just not the custom to bake things here.


I use my oven to store my pots and pans, as do most Mexicans. I guess I'm becoming acculturated!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks for starting this thread, Z. I have the feeling that many Mexicans would also experience culture shock if they found themselves living in your very rural part of Mexico.


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## Rammstein (Jun 18, 2016)

Zorro2017 said:


> Most people considering moving to Mexico understandably want to be in an expat area, there is a comfort of the familiar in a strange country. But by doing so, they never really see how a lot of the population actually lives.
> 
> We had the families that live near us come over recently for burgers. After a while, four of the boys told my wife they needed to use the bathroom. My wife showed them where it was and a few minutes later one of them came out and asked her for help. None of them knew how to flush the toilet. There is no plumbing in this community as far as bathrooms go, they utilize and "outhouse" for the lack of a better term. Even the one at their small school is a just a seat over a deep hole in a small room.
> 
> ...


And you live in a walled in compound. I have been living in a small apartment in a very old public housing community for more than 20 years. I know my neighbors. Some of the kids come to use my computer to do their homework. I have given away thousands of pesos to help with health problems, funerals, school supplies, clothes, etc. I took care of a kid for 2 years because his mother, who was once my friend, became an alcoholic and did not want him anymore. His father lived in another state and did not want him and other family member did not have the money to take care of him. His mother died earlier this year and his father finally agreed to take him. In other words, you don't get to know the problems and challenges these folks face unless you really live among them. Enough for now.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Good topic. Perhaps _most_ expats are comfortable with living in an expat community with all the stuff from back home readily available... but some of us aren't. I spent a career in L.A. working in a largely immigrant community, fascinated how some wished to live just like in their home country as much as possible while others felt they had to act, speak, and live "American". It's sort of the same here once you figure out the difference, if any, between_ ex-pat and immigrant_, and that can be a culturally loaded discussion in itself. Like Zorro claims, many of us like to live just just like NOB, just cheaper. I've also met the breed of expat who plays the _more-Mexican-than-thou_ game, equally as strange. I find the golden mean to be best. As expats/immigrants we have the wonderful opportunity to take the best from each culture and meld it. 
BTW, often what the locals are living without, they do because there's little utility in it due to local conditions. On the tropical coast, hot water is something only fancier hotels and NorAm expats have. When our house was built, wife had hotwater pipes put in along with a boiler on the roof-- which was rendered useless by oxidation within two years and was never replaced. In a region where the temperature rarely goes below 18C, and tap water is lukewarm, it's easy to live without hot water.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

I'm happy living in a normal middle-class Mexican neighborhood with all the comforts I need - food on the table, access to inexpensive local eateries when I don't feel like cooking, a space heater for chilly winter nights, a very small refrigerator, a stove with an oven I rarely use, and a roomy closet in my bedroom. I have a good computer connection but no TV. I don't try to live like a Mexican (many of whom have lots more disposable income than I do!) nor do I exist in an expat bubble (where I doubt I'd find many soulmates). You could say I live in a comfortable world of my own creation!


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm happy living in a normal middle-class Mexican neighborhood with all the comforts I need - food on the table, access to inexpensive local eateries when I don't feel like cooking, a space heater for chilly winter nights, a very small refrigerator, a stove with an oven I rarely use, and a roomy closet in my bedroom. I have ]a good computer connection but no TV. I don't try to live like a Mexican (many of whom have lots more disposable income than I do!) nor do I exist in an expat bubble (where I doubt I'd find many soulmates). You could say I live in a comfortable world of my own creation!


 You must be quite happy in your comfortable middle ground. CDMX is just too big, busy, and in-your-face for me, but I enjoy being a tourist there once in a while. I wouldn't cook much either with the vast array of good and inexpensive places to eat. Getting back to Mexican antipathy to having or using an oven--- I don't get it. It's understandable where I live because nobody in their right mind wants to be in a kitchen baking a leg of mutton when it's 35C and muggy. In the highlands making some banana bread on a chilly evening, cranking up the oven instead of a space heater, would be pleasant. I guess Mexicans prefer to leave the baking to bakers, but in the lowlands a panadería often has large brick ovens _outside_. Local conditions, local traditions. 
Reminds me of when some new ex-pats moved here a few years back, imported materials at great expense, and built their idea of the perfect vacation home: a split log cabin with a chimney, small windows and poor ventilation. It was right out of a Christmas postcard and would've looked perfect on a frozen lake in Vermont.... but not well-adapted to the hot, humid environment of a tropical beach. _Termites_, however, love the local climate and made short work of the cabin.  They sold out and moved away.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Zorro2017 said:


> In our area they can't even afford the propane to fuel an oven, let alone an oven, let that sink in for just a moment.
> 
> No hot showers at home, ever, but they are always clean as are their clothes.
> 
> ...


The wood is free but it is not a long term solution. Mexico's forest are disappearing because people use them for cooking, for heat, for fence posts. In 2002, Mexico created CONAFOR (Comisión Nacional Forestal) to address the problem with forests. CONAFOR plants a lot of trees. One year, maybe 2009, Calderon tried to get Mexico in the Guinness Book of World Records for the most trees planted in a single day.


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## dwwhiteside (Apr 17, 2013)

My wife and are are both from middle class backgrounds; hers in Mexico City and mine in rural Texas. Last night we were watching a show on a U.S. cable channel, one where all of the commercials were also from the U.S. After one such commercial, I think for Lexus automobiles, my wife looked at me and said, "Sometimes I miss the U.S.A."

Now, the funniest thing about this is, the same commercials that made her miss the U.S. were making me feel grateful to be living in Mexico. She missed some of the social aspects of life in the U.S.; getting a new car because your neighbors and co-workers were doing the same, buying new clothes and shoes (lots of shoes) to wear to the office or on nights out, etc. But for me, seeing these commercials made me happy to be here in Mexico where I do not feel the pressure to go into debt in order to impress my friends, neighbors and co-workers.

Here in Mexico, my wife and I have a middle class, perhaps even upper middle class life. But we are able to do that without any debt and still have money to help others less fortunate than ourselves. I feel blessed to be living here and grateful to have what we have.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes they give lots of plants away and the people I know plant hundrerds of trees and then let the cattle eat them.. I do not think the concept is well understood and as long as the plants are free they are not appreciated.

Wood is getting harder to get. In the indigenous community I work with, women have always turned down gas kilns because they had no use for it and wood was free or cheap but now the wood is disappearing and they have to pay 2000 pesos a truck so they are begining to be interested by gaz .. Things change. They are all still firing kinls or firing in the open air with wood and cooking with wood.. pine for the kilns and oak for the cooking but now they are looking for ways to save wood..free wood in that comunity and many others is a thing from the past.
In some comunities I know of in Guerrero they are using cow dung for fuel as wood is hard to get and expensive.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> Yes they give lots of plants away and the people I know plant hundrerds of trees and then let the cattle eat them.. I do not think the concept is well understood and as long as the plants are free they are not appreciated.
> 
> Wood is getting harder to get. In the indigenous community I work with, women have always turned down gas kilns because they had no use for it and wood was free or cheap but now the wood is disappearing and they have to pay 2000 pesos a truck so they are begining to be interested by gaz .. Things change. They are all still firing kinls or firing in the open air with wood and cooking with wood.. pine for the kilns and oak for the cooking but now they are looking for ways to save wood..free wood in that comunity and many others is a thing from the past.
> In some comunities I know of in Guerrero they are using cow dung for fuel as wood is hard to get and expensive.


I have heard that there is a 95% loss of the trees that CONAFOR plants. There was no followup care watering them. I don't know if that estimate is accurate or current.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I do not try to live like a poor Mexican either what is the point? I am not a poor Mexican and thank Goodness will never be but when I am in the villages I adapt very quickly: I often stay in places with out- houses and bed made of blankets and planks or on petate no sheets no pillows.
We cook on wood fire often in a kitchen where there is no exhaust and cook the tortillas on metal or clay comales.. . but when my friends come to my house they use the dishwaher , the gas stove, the garbage disposal and drink capuchino and everyone is fine with it once they know how to use them.
People adapt one way or the other , it is fun to change once in a while and go back to what you are comfortable with..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> I have heard that there is a 95% loss of the trees that CONAFOR plants. There was no followup care watering them. I don't know if that estimate is accurate or current.


I would think 5% survival is very high. There is no watering that is for sure but there is also no safe zone in many communities.. Some ejidos will designate an area for replanting and will not let animals go there but in some other areas it is a total waste of many to give them any plants..
I had a friend who went into communities to check out the survival rate of the plants in the Marquese de Comilla area until one day she was attacked by illagers for counting the trees so that was the end of her checking and giving carbon credits..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Zorro the oven thing is cultural, I rarely use an oven and I am French..Once in a great while I will use one but I mostly cook on top of the stove , I do not have a microwave either in Chiapas because I never saw any need for it,.. You can cook delicious meals without an oven. If I want bread I buy it at the bakery same with cakes which I rarely eat anyways. You can make delicious desserts on top of the stove as well.. What I miss the most in the villages is a refri.. and of course warm water..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

perropedorro said:


> You must be quite happy in your comfortable middle ground. CDMX is just too big, busy, and in-your-face for me, but I enjoy being a tourist there once in a while. I wouldn't cook much either with the vast array of good and inexpensive places to eat.


When I hang around my fairly tranquil neighborhood, it feels like I'm living in a small town where almost everyone knows my name, or at least my face! My excuse for not cooking every day is that my kitchen is so tiny  .


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Rammstein said:


> And you live in a walled in compound.


We have a wall around our home, that does not make it a compound, it makes it normal in this part of Mexico. Not so much in the Yucatan or the inner cities but walls around homes in the mountains of Veracruz are as common as tortilla delivery motorbikes. Even the most modest homes here (make that very poor) have walls around them. Also homes that look like they have absolutely nothing to steal have burglar bars. This does not designate a "compound", it just says "private property" better than a sign. 

The most common walls are the brick columns with inverted arches inter-spaced with wrought iron bars with sharp tips. Those who can't afford this use cyclone fence between the columns, then barbed wire, then finally those long stemmed plants that form an impenetrable wall for those who cannot afford a wall.

I can post a photo of three solid blocks of very modest homes in a small city named La Luz that are all enclosed with colorful walls but this in itself is just another cultural difference of Mexico. In my part of Texas only very exclusive homes are enclosed by ivy covered walls with automatic gates. Most homes in America want the front accessible, Mexicans here in this part of the country value their security and privacy. 

It makes good sense too as we have left this home for months at a time and even though our neighbors are honest, the road is used a lot by people avoiding the transito cop checkpoints looking for expired tags and no insurance. A home with no wall and no activity out in the boonies would soon have no patio furniture, lawn mower and after a while, no interior furnishings.



Rammstein said:


> In other words, you don't get to know the problems and challenges these folks face unless you really live among them. Enough for now.


I assure you, we know our neighbors problems and challenges.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> I use my oven to store my pots and pans, as do most Mexicans. I guess I'm becoming acculturated!


So do we but my wife uses the oven regularly as it is cool here, more often we use a small electric convection oven to make biscuits or cookies which we make frequently.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for starting this thread, Z. I have the feeling that many Mexicans would also experience culture shock if they found themselves living in your very rural part of Mexico.


I'm sure they would Isla, the country life isn't for everybody.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

perropedorro said:


> You must be quite happy in your comfortable middle ground. CDMX is just too big, busy, and in-your-face for me, but I enjoy being a tourist there once in a while. I wouldn't cook much either with the vast array of good and inexpensive places to eat. Getting back to Mexican antipathy to having or using an oven--- I don't get it. It's understandable where I live because nobody in their right mind wants to be in a kitchen baking a leg of mutton when it's 35C and muggy. In the highlands making some banana bread on a chilly evening, cranking up the oven instead of a space heater, would be pleasant.


We have only fireplaces for heat and we use them both regularly, particularly this time of year. My wife is Mexican and she calls 60 degrees "terrible cold." I love the smell of a wood fire but I was always an outdoors type of person, we camped out a lot when the kids were young.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

citlali said:


> Yes they give lots of plants away and the people I know plant hundrerds of trees and then let the cattle eat them.. I do not think the concept is well understood and as long as the plants are free they are not appreciated.
> 
> Wood is getting harder to get. In the indigenous community I work with, women have always turned down gas kilns because they had no use for it and wood was free or cheap but now the wood is disappearing and they have to pay 2000 pesos a truck so they are begining to be interested by gaz .. Things change. They are all still firing kinls or firing in the open air with wood and cooking with wood.. pine for the kilns and oak for the cooking but now they are looking for ways to save wood..free wood in that comunity and many others is a thing from the past.
> In some comunities I know of in Guerrero they are using cow dung for fuel as wood is hard to get and expensive.


Wood here is 250 pesos for about a little over a half of a cord. A very good deal. We won't run out of wood in this part of Mexico in my lifetime as the nearby mountains are just too steep to farm.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Another cultural difference is towns that specialize in one particular product. In America if there were already say 15 plant nurseries in a small town no one would open another due to the competition. But we went to Fortin de las Flores yesterday to buy pots and plants and almost the entire town is devoted to or specializes in viveros. Entire streets are lined with them and you have to wonder with so many, who buys them? But they were doing a thriving business yesterday.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Fortin sends flowers all over Mexico just like Xochomilco does or Zinacantan..It is a crop in Fortin and the people from there can be seen all over the place selling orchids and bulbs.. We see them in San Cristobal peddling the flowers.. 
While in Fortin I hope you visited the incredible bonsai collection of the Bonsai Museum there, it is something not to miss.

It is common in California to have towns specializing in onne crop as well Castroville is known for its artichokes and that is what they sel there, Salinas sells garlic.. Sonoma used to specialize in prunes now it is grapes.. Sacremento valley is the almond Capital.. and so on


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

citlali said:


> Fortin sends flowers all over Mexico just like Xochomilco does or Zinacantan..It is a crop in Fortin and the people from there can be seen all over the place selling orchids and bulbs.. We see them in San Cristobal peddling the flowers..
> While in Fortin I hope you visited the incredible bonsai collection of the Bonsai Museum there, it is something not to miss.
> 
> It is common in California to have towns specializing in onne crop as well Castroville is known for its artichokes and that is what they sel there, Salinas sells garlic.. Sonoma used to specialize in prunes now it is grapes.. Sacremento valley is the almond Capital.. and so on


Fortin is close enough for us to visit regularly and with the prices we will surely return. But as usual we had the dog with us so the museum was out.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The museum is full of recue dogs of all colors, ages and race, I doubt they would care if you had dogs plus it is an outside museum..
When we first saw it years ago it was a private property and the bonsais were all out on a lot with a fence around..You could not visit it but now you can and it is a treat.. The best thing in Fortin..
An interesting thing about the nurseries there, I could not find vanilla orchids so I went to Papantla to get some..they were 20 pesos a 5 gallon pot.. a deal.. I grow them in the garden and they do produce beans in our climate in Guadalajara. I have them growing in trees and on a wall..


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Zorro2017 said:


> We have only fireplaces for heat and we use them both regularly, particularly this time of year. My wife is Mexican and she calls 60 degrees "terrible cold." I love the smell of a wood fire but I was always an outdoors type of person, we camped out a lot when the kids were young.


Is your wife from the tropical lowlands? On the Colima coast 60F _might_ happen on the coldest morning of January and not even every year, with 55F being the lowest ever recorded. When it gets down to 65 the natives bundle up and complain of the bitter, deadly cold.


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## PanamaJan1! (Dec 1, 2017)

perropedorro said:


> Good topic. Perhaps _most_ expats are comfortable with living in an expat community with all the stuff from back home readily available... but some of us aren't. I spent a career in L.A. working in a largely immigrant community, fascinated how some wished to live just like in their home country as much as possible while others felt they had to act, speak, and live "American". It's sort of the same here once you figure out the difference, if any, between_ ex-pat and immigrant_, and that can be a culturally loaded discussion in itself. Like Zorro claims, many of us like to live just just like NOB, just cheaper. I've also met the breed of expat who plays the _more-Mexican-than-thou_ game, equally as strange. I find the golden mean to be best. As expats/immigrants we have the wonderful opportunity to take the best from each culture and meld it.
> BTW, often what the locals are living without, they do because there's little utility in it due to local conditions. On the tropical coast, hot water is something only fancier hotels and NorAm expats have. When our house was built, wife had hotwater pipes put in along with a boiler on the roof-- which was rendered useless by oxidation within two years and was never replaced. In a region where the temperature rarely goes below 18C, and tap water is lukewarm, it's easy to live without hot water.


We live in Panama at this time and the same conditions are prevalent here also. We do what we can to help out and I am amazed by what brings them joy. Makes one take stock of oneself, Eh?
Anyway, we are going to move to the Lake Chapala area and wonder if anyone has some insight to this area. Not real fond of Ajiijic, though. The outlaying areas are more our speed.

Thanks,
Jan


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

citlali said:


> I do not try to live like a poor Mexican either what is the point? I am not a poor Mexican and thank Goodness will never be but when I am in the villages I adapt very quickly:


Good point, so delightful as opposed to "owning" the topic of Mexico. This thread reminds me of many threads on this forum. There is a large body of academic research about who "owns" a culture, who has the "right" to the culture. Of course, that applies to language also, even including who has the "right" to teach a language. I teach Spanish at a tier-1 university (I finished my stressful MA last June and now am starting the next cycle-of-panic leading up to quals for the PhD) and I sometimes see those attitudes expressed by students, even though I doubt they would verbalize them as such. It's all about the individual and culture, including attitudes about race and even gender and age. When you bend the rules, you hear things that are a little "weird". I don't study literature.


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## robbiethinking (Nov 23, 2017)

Mmmm . . . reading the responses here I have the sneaking feeling that not all the replies are coming within the context of a 'culture' shock. Many of them might appear to be the result of (to speak plainly and with no pretext at political correctness) a 'class' shock also - not easy to separate the two things sometimes.

Contentious, I know. But how many of the replies here could be seamlessly applied to comments about finding yourself suddenly being in a really poor part of America, for example?

OK - not perhaps the hole-in-a-board-over-a-pit latrine. But remember that the world is huge and, living where I am in Thailand, the vast majority of the 67 million Thais live comfortably in conditions which most affluent nations would be horrified by - as was I when I first came here - even though these same people own a car, a TV and a smartphone, at the very least.

It's not about 3rd world poverty - I could take you to parts of England or Spain or Italy (etc etc) where toilets are indeed a hole in the floor in an outhouse, water comes from a handpump, and is heated by putting it over a fire, and an 'oven' is a clay pit outside.

And don't forget that culture shock works both ways - I've been with educated adults in Egypt who marveled at the idea of GPS tracking, had teenagers in The Gambia following me to look more closely at shoes that were NOT made out of car tyres, and even had one family in the mountains of Corsica offer me half a BBQd goat in exchange for a small thermos flask (which they had never before been able to imagine!).

(Although I have to say that this kind of reversal-shock has already been touched upon - without due reverence perhaps? - in an earlier reply relating to flushing toilets and liquid soap dispensers (neither of which (by the way) are common in the lives of the vast majority of the world's peoples).

Happily it seems that most of the comments here stem from a sense of wonder rather than the knee-jerk of condescension which, to me, is how it should be in a world that's cram full of surprises!


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

A wise wag once said that we shouldn't confuse the presence of plumbing with the presence of civilization. Some do.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes of course it is a class shock as well The poor from the US or any other country would not be shocked to hear these people had no oven or holes in the roof or had out houses.
I moved to Alabama in 1970 from France when it was still not very safe to for white and blacks to sociallized- At school I made friends with a black woman who was teaching French in Brewton Alabama. She invited me several times to stay with her and one day she took me to er grand-mother farm.. It was the cotton harvest and I helped out as the grand-mother plot was small.. I stayed in her shack.. one of those shotgun house that looked so quaint in the distance..there was no running water.. The water was put in buckets in the sun to warm up and of course the bathroom was a out.house.. not very different from what I see in the hills in Chiapas.

These poor black farmers back in the 70´s in the US did not live any differently from the poor Mexicans from Vera Cruz or anywhere else.. poverty is poverty, it is neither pretty nor quaint.

The migrants in the US in the 70´s working for a well known winery I will not name, slept in fields and cars without any facility because Sonoma country would not allow them to sleep in a barn the winery had because there was no bathroom there..

Each class has its own culture so culture shock and class shock is basically the same thing..


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

citlali said:


> Each class has its own culture so culture shock and class shock is basically the same thing..


So true. Like you, I'm happy at having the good fortune of not being a poor Mexican, but can adapt to not having _stuff_, and I've been acquainted with Mexican fresas that would have a far more difficult time being a poor Mexican than I would. It helps immensely to be aware of the difference between wants and needs regardless the bombardment of advertising, expertly designed by psychologists, that blur the distinction.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

I still say it is economic rather than cultural that I was speaking of. Given the choice of having an oven to bake a turkey rather than boiling it, they would own an oven if they could afford it, it is not hot here. Pardon the cutting back to the topic.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

robbiethinking said:


> Many of them might appear to be the result of (to speak plainly and with no pretext at political correctness) a 'class' shock also - not easy to separate the two things sometimes.
> 
> in an earlier reply relating to flushing toilets and liquid soap dispensers (neither of which (by the way) are common in the lives of the vast majority of the world's peoples).
> 
> Happily it seems that most of the comments here stem from a sense of wonder rather than the knee-jerk of condescension which, to me, is how it should be in a world that's cram full of surprises!


Class shock vs culture shock ... if you dig deep, the two are not completely separate. There's a big importance placed here on family, time with friends, leisure. A lot of people here could work hard for the next promotion, or take a second job, but they don't simply because they don't want to give up family time, friends time, the things they enjoy in their leisure time. They could work in a more lucrative field that maybe isn't their first choice in terms of feeling passionate about it, and is demanding, but pays much more - but they don't because that simply does not make sense to them. You could say their culture keeps them in the class they are in, or at least in terms of having material things, holds them back.

Re: toilets, not to argue, but point of fact most experts estimate 2/3rds of the world population have regular access to flush toilets and running water. Still strikes me as quite low, especially when even the most poor people here for example seem to have at least one robust celular phone in the household.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Zorro I disagree with you .. most people do not cook with an oven and do not know how to cook with an oven They do not miss not having an oven because it is not part of their background..

I have had the experience of having many women coming to my house and staying with me many times.. They want a washing machine before they want an oven, they want water at the tap, flushing toilet before they want an oven, the ones who have managed to make more money built a kitchen with a sink, with hot water and cold water altough most of them never have gaz as the gaz truck is not reliable in their village. When they buy a stove, it comes with an oven but I do not know one who uses the oven... an oven is not something that appears on the radar..
The caldo de pollo de rancho and caldo de rez is prized in their culture and same with the turkey.. They boil all meats until they are tender and have them with the broth. They do not roast meat in an oven.
They cook the meat in a hole underground covered with agave or nopal..--that is the way food is cooked traditionally and most women have ero idea of what to do with an oven.

I am talking about poor indigenous women -- now my friend from Puebla whi is a middle class woman and a fabulous cook, uses her oven but none of the poor women I know have any desire to have one or cook with one and they enjoy their turkey in its caldo..


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

citlali said:


> Zorro I disagree with you .. most people do not cook with an oven and do not know how to cook with an oven They do not miss not having an oven because it is not part of their background.


I was thinking along the same lines, but you put it so well. There are differences that just don't matter, like whether meals are cooked on a stovetop or in an oven. Some things we're used to in the 1st world that we'd like to make universal are beneficial and would inarguably raise quality of life-- like clean tap water separated from the sewer system. Other western inventions, not so much, like disposable diapers, Coca-Cola, and nylon. It looks too much like arrogant colonialists who justified imposing themselves on the natives with the pretext of "_civilizing the heathen_".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Unfortunately everyone has taken to Coca cola and dsposable diapers when the women can afford them and plastic bags not the best thing that has happened.. 

yes clean water is the most important thing people can get..Parasites are everywhere and there are areas where people go blind because of some parasite in the water. 

Access to decent doctors and medecine is another one. Many people still die of infections that could be cured but do not go and see a doctor and will not take western medecine.

As far as cooking a turkey , the indigenous have been boiling their turkeys as far as anyone can remember and they do not kneed the white man to teach them how to cook them.. An oven is a luxury not a necessity amongst the poor in Mexico.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

UrbanMan said:


> Class shock vs culture shock ... if you dig deep, the two are not completely separate. There's a big importance placed here on family, time with friends, leisure. A lot of people here could work hard for the next promotion, or take a second job, but they don't simply because they don't want to give up family time, friends time, the things they enjoy in their leisure time. They could work in a more lucrative field that maybe isn't their first choice in terms of feeling passionate about it, and is demanding, but pays much more - but they don't because that simply does not make sense to them. You could say their culture keeps them in the class they are in, or at least in terms of having material things, holds them back.
> 
> Re: toilets, not to argue, but point of fact most experts estimate 2/3rds of the world population have regular access to flush toilets and running water. Still strikes me as quite low, especially when even the most poor people here for example seem to have at least one robust celular phone in the household.


Perhaps in your area working in a more lucrative field is a possibility, a large city offers more opportunity than the cane fields of rural Mexico. The cycle of poverty has been going on so long here that the means are just not available. They don't have the transportation to even go look for work or the proper clothes to work in many fields. That is why we are encouraging the boys to pursue the military or police department. Neither pay well but when you consider that cane is only harvested once or twice a year and what money they make has to be stretched out until the next harvest. At least the military and police departments have steady pay, the opportunity to advance and eventually a pension. 

This is only true because of their remote location, work simply is not here and the money to go to where the work is is just not available. Half of the people here don't own a car.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Many people just leave the areas where there is no work, go to Mexico or other big city to work for a few years to acumulate some money and buy something to start a business: some buy a car to become a taxi others buy chairs they can rent for events and so on.. It makes no sense to stay in a place to starve when you can get out and they can get out even if it is via walking or hitching a ride.
I know whole villages where no one has a car and people do get out.. If 50% of the population has a car the ones who do not have one can hitch a ride for a few pesos.

In many villages in Chiapas there is no job and people are at war part of the time with the next village, people grow their own food and sell the surplus, women work some type of artesania and many of the men leave and work in construction in Mexico or wherever they can find work, they eventually do if they are good workers, some come back to start a little business others stay away and send money home to the ones who stay behind. I know indigenous kids from dirt poor and I mean dirt poor families who are artists, teachers, psychologists and politicians.. if the kids are smart there are scholarships in some areas . it is not easy but there is help for some of them.


People here are incredibly resourceful, they have to , to survive.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Yes, I'm not saying it's impossible to break out of this poverty cycle but leaving to go somewhere where there is work with absolutely no pesos or job skills is just too daunting for most of them. Otherwise they wouldn't be here for so many generations.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Zorro2017 said:


> Yes, I'm not saying it's impossible to break out of this poverty cycle but leaving to go somewhere where there is work with absolutely no pesos or job skills is just too daunting for most of them. Otherwise they wouldn't be here for so many generations.


If they didn´t finish public school [Secondaria] which many do not attend as there are none but maybe a "Primera" in their village then even if they can afford to travel to a large town or city they will not likely get a job. Here a "Secundaria" education is needed for most Jobs. If they lived rural and didn´t attend any school even worst change any employer will hire them in the city.

Think Jethro, Elly May, Granny or Jed when trying to speculate what hill people are capable of doing in a lage town or city for employment. Many are just as happly to continue with life as their ancestors did and many Expats don´t understand these things and never will. It is obviously by many posters´ comments just all to strange and foreign to them.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> Many are just as happy to continue with life as their ancestors did and many Expats don´t understand these things and never will. It is just all to strange and foreign to them.


Agree. That is what I was saying.




AlanMexicali said:


> If they didn´t finish public school [Secondaria] which many do not attend as there are none but maybe a "Primera" in their village then even if they can afford to travel to a large town or city they will not likely get a job.


Here in GDL, stores are begging for help. Low wages I know, but wages nevertheless, and all you have to do is be able to clean yourself up a little. The jobs require little talent beyond smiling and being generally helpful.

Also in GDL there is light manufacturing and warehouse work, again, signs all over broadcasting jobs are available. With the Mexican cultural value of wanting to help others, especially family, I believe there have to be ways to get here if the desire truly exits. It would require being able to leave the known and familiar.

This is exactly what happened in the US and Canada 70 or so years ago ... rural life was getting harder and harder. The cities were where it was at. Those who recognized this, they moved, and in general lived better.

People in MX are moving. The population numbers over time for FM, GDL and Monterrey show this.

.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

There are tele secondaria and up but many chose not to attend and the level of the school is pretty bad to start with and those are the handicaps for the people living in remote areas...

My parents during the war walked 400 km to escape the gestapo that was after them and they walked it at night.. when there is a will there is a way but as an other poster say many people want to live or are happy to live the way their ancestor did so why feel sorry for them and try to help them?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

UrbanMan said:


> Here in GDL, stores are begging for help. Low wages I know, but wages nevertheless, and all you have to do is be able to clean yourself up a little. The jobs require little talent beyond smiling and being generally helpful.
> 
> Also in GDL there is light manufacturing and warehouse work, again, signs all over broadcasting jobs are available. With the Mexican cultural value of wanting to help others, especially family, I believe there have to be ways to get here if the desire truly exits. *It would require being able to leave the known and familiar.*
> 
> .


I have highlighted the last sentence in UrbanMan's post because it seems to me to be the key to whether a poor person anywhere in the world is able to improve his or her economic situation. Change like this is difficult for many people, and they are the ones who end up being left behind and left in poverty.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

citlali said:


> There are tele secondaria and up but many chose not to attend and the level of the school is pretty bad to start with and those are the handicaps for the people living in remote areas...
> 
> My parents during the war walked 400 km to escape the gestapo that was after them and they walked it at night.. when there is a will there is a way but as an other poster say many people want to live or are happy to live the way their ancestor did so why feel sorry for them and try to help them?


Another thing Expats don´t know about rural schools. I attended a presentation at the very large SLP "Normalista College" for teachers a few years ago. 

They do not teach the same things urban schools teach. Of course reading, writing and math but more of the classes are on how to do weaving, embroidery, grow corn and other crops, fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides etc., raise livestock, dig wells, bee keeping, wáter control and irrigation, building houses and animal structures, etc.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

That is at the normalista level but it is common to meet kids in secondaria who cannot read properly or make an addition or even les a multiplication.. the level of the rural schools is pitiful..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

heck the normalistas have a lousy education.. This week end I asked a teacher to send an invoice to a store for the items his mother had sold to a store.. His mother barely speak Spanish and she cannot read or write. The man was not able to do it..
There were 5 items.. could not do the list and the multiplication and the addition was incorrect.. How can they teach the kids when the teachers themselves are incompetent.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

citlali said:


> That is at the normalista level but it is common to meet kids in secondaria who cannot read properly or make an addition or even les a multiplication.. the level of the rural schools is pitiful..


UrbanMan seems to insinuate these deficiencies you describe are not important in the job market in Guadalajara, but is wrong. Just because they advertize for employees everywhere does not mean those getting jobs do not read or write or even speak Spanish correctly never mind know basic math. There are thousands who do know these things and they are the ones employers are looking for.

Even a full time maid and Nanny that can´t read or write isn´t desireable here never mind a $600.00 pesos for a 40 hr. per week store clerk or manual laborers. I have friends with many employees and they don´t hire hastly or without referencies. There are definately many qualified people willing to work in Mexico as statistics will verify. 

The chain of poverty isn´t as easy to get out of as finding a job that pays a living wage. This is what some liberal and right leaning advoactes seem to think but it is far more complex than that.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

As I have said, these kids have hopes and dreams, they want to do something besides chopping cane. They are not satisfied with this life of nothing. One wants to be a scientist, one an architect, another the Navy, etc. This is a small village of nothing but scattered houses. In a city, even a small one at least there is a chance to meet a friend of the family or a friend of a friend who works at a muffler shop, electrical skills or a body shop that they can hang around and learn. Cities offer opportunities even if they are in trades like this it is something besides chopping cane which is all there is here.

They want more out of life and express this. They are staying in school so far and we will encourage this. But in this area there simply aren't any skills to be learned so leaving home with empty pockets and no skills is not only daunting but not a good choice for them.

The military or the police department is the only way out of this area and this cycle of poverty. We ran into a man and woman recruiter in a park and they had pamphlets which we bought to them.

They do want a better life than what they have.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Also currently there is a move underway to utilize the military in assisting the police which is being met with resistance because some see it as the "militarization" of Mexico, but it opens more opportunities to join the military. I still see it as their best option.

With parental consent they can join at 16, we saw very young ones at a check point wearing braces on their teeth, another advantage would be health and dental care.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

As long as the kids can stay in school and learn something , it is great.. the lack of education either formal or informal is a huge handicap later on..
The ideal is when the kids have relatives in a city where they can go while they study.. that would be the best for them,,, but if not I gues the military is an option , hopefully they can learn some trade and get out after that to start their own business . I have zero idea what the military has to offer here except getting killed in the many conflicts around the country and with the cartels.. 
Do they offer continuing education? Yes education is super important..


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Zorro2017 said:


> The military or the police department is the only way out of this area and this cycle of poverty. We ran into a man and woman recruiter in a park and they had pamphlets which we bought to them.
> They do want a better life than what they have.


I'd prefer that the free enterprise system afford opportunities for all youth, but it sometimes fails, and government must intervene. It's also unfortunate that those opportunities, police and the army, are military in nature because not everyone is cut out to carry a gun or rifle--- not to mention that in Latin America cops and soldiers suffer from negative PR for having a history of frequently engaging in battle against popular movements of the domestic citizenry more frequently than to repel a foreign invader. Better they be broad-based, serving the needs of the needy population in general, like the numerous public works programs that the New Deal introduced to pull the U.S. out of (or at least take the hard edges off of) the Great Depression. And Mexico certainly has plenty to be done that could improve the lot those that the economic miracle of Free Trade has left behind.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> UrbanMan seems to insinuate these deficiencies you describe are not important in the job market in Guadalajara, but is wrong. Just because they advertize for employees everywhere does not mean those getting jobs do not read or write or even speak Spanish correctly never mind know basic math.


Lets not overestimate what it takes to get a retail job. The other week I bought a couple of items in a decent sized store. The people working there were obviously employees not family members. I bought two items that cost 10 pesos each. A calculator was used to determine that the total amount was 20. I received a hand written receipt. I could read the 20, but the descriptive word was a scribble indicative of nothing.

The women were all decent looking or better, and the men semi-clean and able-bodied. 

In the more swanky stores around here, the women are young and look good in tight clothes.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

citlali said:


> As long as the kids can stay in school and learn something , it is great.. the lack of education either formal or informal is a huge handicap later on..
> The ideal is when the kids have relatives in a city where they can go while they study.. that would be the best for them,,, but if not I gues the military is an option , hopefully they can learn some trade and get out after that to start their own business . I have zero idea what the military has to offer here except getting killed in the many conflicts around the country and with the cartels..
> Do they offer continuing education? Yes education is super important..


They have no relatives in a city, few have been more than 5 miles from home. My wife's dentist told her that he received his training in the military. I'm sure they don't contract out the repair of vehicles but do that themselves through training as does the American military. Even if they wind up just as infantry they have a better opportunity of securing work in a private security firm of which there are many. Sure, there is a chance that they will wind up pulling raids against the cartel but knowing the risks they still see this as a way out of the cane fields. Other advantages are the free clothing, housing, food, dental and medical care while serving so they get to keep the little money that they earn instead of spending it on basic survival.

A search shows...

Most recruits are of a poor or indigent background; for them, induction into the military is often seen as a source of employment and as a means of upward social mobility. Soldiers' pay is slightly higher than established minimum wages. Vocational and literacy training for armed forces personnel improves their chances of employment when their term of enlistment is completed.

Recruits enlisting for their first three-year term of service receive basic training at the local unit to which they are assigned, which usually is not far from the individual's home. During the first term of enlistment, the emphasis is on developing basic military skills using an on-the-job training approach. There is a high retention rate for first-term recruits, who often elect to enlist for another three years. Recruits usually complete subsequent terms of service away from their districts. Persons completing this second term of service can hope to attain the rank of sergeant. An increasing number of enlisted personnel serve until they are eligible for retirement, which comes after twenty years.


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

UrbanMan said:


> Lets not overestimate what it takes to get a retail job. The other week I bought a couple of items in a decent sized store. The people working there were obviously employees not family members. I bought two items that cost 10 pesos each. A calculator was used to determine that the total amount was 20. I received a hand written receipt. I could read the 20, but the descriptive word was a scribble indicative of nothing.
> 
> The women were all decent looking or better, and the men semi-clean and able-bodied.
> 
> In the more swanky stores around here, the women are young and look good in tight clothes.


Go to a Fabrica de Francia or a Liverpool and look at the way the sales persons, men and women are dressed, suits and very nice dresses, they must hire only the more educated and pay better for the employees to even afford such clothes, unless they provide them which is unlikely.

Don't underestimate the selection process even in small retail establishments as there are are a lot more people looking for work than there are jobs. Tourist towns have a lot more opportunity than regular cities. Even shining shoes in the square is work that is not looked down on here as it would be stateside and even most cooks seem to be men.

But I agree the women here are beautiful and that helps to land a job facing the public.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

UrbanMan said:


> Lets not overestimate what it takes to get a retail job. The other week I bought a couple of items in a decent sized store. The people working there were obviously employees not family members. I bought two items that cost 10 pesos each. A calculator was used to determine that the total amount was 20. I received a hand written receipt. I could read the 20, but the descriptive word was a scribble indicative of nothing.
> 
> .


After you are more familiar with living in Mexico you will notice the difference between urban poor, 2nd or 5th generation and their manors and rural indigenous people where norms and manors are not urban and therefore they have to learn how to adapt to cities or large towns. 

You simply mistook an urban worker for a rural worker that is all. Believe me employers don´t need an uneducated person working for them unless it is heavy lifting etc. when there is more than abundant urban raised workers around.


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> You simply mistook an urban worker for a rural worker that is all. Believe me employers don´t need an uneducated person working for them unless it is heavy lifting etc. when there is more than abundant urban raised workers around.


I did not mistake anything. The idea that basic retail workers working for very modest wages in Mx are passing some big set of tests is just silly. There's a conversation with the supervisor, he/she goes with his/her gut, and there's careful observation during the first few days. In other words, exactly the same way it worked NOB until computer data bases tracked everything.

If someone shows up and they can barely talk, or are obviously a misfit, sure, they aren't gonna get the job. All based on the aforementioned gut of the supervisor. 

I've been here in the city long enough to get a sense that the local education system is not much. Better than out in sticks from the sounds of things, but still not much. Anybody with any kind of cash flow has their kids in private schools - for a reason.


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## TurtleToo (Aug 23, 2013)

> I did not mistake anything. . . . There's a conversation with the supervisor, he/she goes with his/her gut, and there's careful observation during the first few days. In other words, exactly the same way it worked NOB until computer data bases tracked everything.
> 
> If someone shows up and they can barely talk, or are obviously a misfit, sure, they aren't gonna get the job. All based on the aforementioned gut of the supervisor.


I don't know that "he/she goes by his/her gut," as much as he/she goes by who the applicant happens to know. It's more likely to be a network of connections that lands the job rather than the supervisor's gut. The secretary's brother-in-law's neighbor's third cousin is going to get hired!

.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

UrbanMan said:


> I did not mistake anything. The idea that basic retail workers working for very modest wages in Mx are passing some big set of tests is just silly.



Silly the way your read my many comments but not silly because I never stated there is a big test of skills, only manors and urban behaviours instead of rural non educated manors and rural behaviours. You mistook my comments as meaning a $600.00 peso per 40 hrs. per week employee needs to be educated as in an upper working class or lower middle class education. I did not state that.

They have school dropouts here as well as where you came from and they can get a job. Rural people who didn´t go to school don´t get store clerk jobs in Mexico as a general rule.

After awhile living in Mexico you will get to notice things you can´t notice now. Too soon. IMO


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## Zorro2017 (Jan 9, 2017)

Don't forget some jobs like the Pemex employees who pump your gas and the sackers at Chedraui work only for tips and don't receive a salary. They probably do better than the minimum wage workers.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes the baggers make more than the minimum wage, way more actually..but many stores restrict these jobs to good students or handicapped people or old people and they also split the shift so people do not get what they could get if they worked all day..


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## UrbanMan (Jun 18, 2015)

AlanMexicali said:


> You mistook my comments as meaning a $600.00 peso per 40 hrs. per week employee needs to be educated as in an upper working class or lower middle class education.


I mistook nothing. I posted nothing even remotely close to what you have absolutely wrongly attributed to me in your post. Bush league.



> After awhile living in Mexico you will get to notice things you can´t notice now. Too soon.


After a long time of living in Mexico, you seem to have convinced yourself your observations are more valid and insightful than those of others. A person is correct when they have facts on their side, not because they have been somewhere a long time.

.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

UrbanMan said:


> Lets not overestimate what it takes to get a retail job. The other week I bought a couple of items in a decent sized store. The people working there were obviously employees not family members. I bought two items that cost 10 pesos each. A calculator was used to determine that the total amount was 20. I received a hand written receipt. I could read the 20, but the descriptive word was a scribble indicative of nothing.
> 
> The women were all decent looking or better, and the men semi-clean and able-bodied.
> 
> In the more swanky stores around here, the women are young and look good in tight clothes.






UrbanMan said:


> I mistook nothing. I posted nothing even remotely close to what you have absolutely wrongly attributed to me in your post.
> 
> 
> 
> After a long time of living in Mexico, you seem to have convinced yourself your observations are more valid and insightful than those of others.


So far you only observed a store clerk use a caculator. Maybe their boss tells them to use a calculator on every hand written sales slip with 2 or more ítems. The scribble you noticed, not being able to read Spanish, might seem like scribble to you but not to others.

If you have to speculate on things at least think about how things actually work here and don´t think of what you saw all the time in Canada.

I didn´t overestimate what it takes to get a low paying retail job but you seem to think I did so I casually estimated what your word overestimated implyed here:

"Originally Posted by AlanMexicali View Post

"You mistook my comments as meaning a $600.00 peso per 40 hrs. per week employee needs to be educated as in an upper working class or lower middle class education. "


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