# stray dogs in Italy



## marzia

Hi every one out there, both full or part timers !!

I take that most of you are animal lovers , and I am wondering how many of you know the situation for stray dogs ,especially in the South of Italy. Are you aware of the many kennels housing in appaling conditions hundreds of dogs with little food ,non-existing hygenic situation and lack of health assistance ?
If you care about animals ,please replay


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## Ann&Geoff

I have an old school friend who is living in Lecce, she does a lot for the local stray dogs & cats.
The website is Puglia Pooches : Val's Diary

She will most likely be able to give you more information, she is passionate about her voluntary work.


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## marzia

Dear Ann & Geoff
thank you very much for answering my posting . I will try to contact Val so we can exchange opinions and informations about the dreaful stae in which so many dogs are ill treated in the South of Italy. I wish very much that other peopole in the forum would have taken an interest, perhaps a lot of the expat are still wearing pink colour glasses in viewing life in Italy.
Thanks again
Marzia


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## Nardini

marzia said:


> I wish very much that other peopole in the forum would have taken an interest, perhaps a lot of the expat are still wearing pink colour glasses in viewing life in Italy.


I think you are being rather more than unfair here, Marzia. Firstly, may I ask if you are complaining about the way in which Italians actually treat their dogs? Or are you complaining about the stray dogs that you will find in some areas of Italy?

Speaking from my own experience, both as a dog lover and keeper of several dogs, a long time breeder and also as someone that has lived in Italy for 15 years - married to an Italian wife that has lived here for 55 years, I can present a view that is not at all "rose coloured", as you considered above.

In Piemonte, Lombardia, Veneto and Friuli - all areas that I have much experience of - there is no more of a problem with stray dogs than there is in, for example, Surrey in England. Certainly the problem of stray dogs increases as one travels further south, with quite a distinct problem in and around Puglia (where I have a family house also), Campania and Calabria. The Pugliese problem also includes the severe problem of leismaniasis, which will give the impression to some people that the animals are being mistreated - whilst in reality they are just very ill.

Perhaps the most sensible thing for you to do would be to engage in your local community to try to help the animals you see as suffering. This would actually achieve something for both the animals themselves and for the community in which you live. As far as simply complaining and, seemingly, wanting to encourage others to join in your complaint is concerned, may I ask what it is that you wish to achieve. Or, perhaps, your view is that Italians are cruel and need educating as to the proper care of dogs? In that case, perhaps you would be best served - as would the local community - if you were to live somewhere that coincides with your particular viewpoint.


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## marzia

I think it's quite far fetched to say that the Northern Italy has a problems that is similar to Surrey but as you noticed I was referring especially to the South of Italy. I am glad to hear that you have several dogs and I hope that many other expatriats are following your example in rehoming dogs from the many kennels that are looking for adoption.
You are pobably not aware of the extent of the problem in Italy. I give you some official data from Ministero della Salute that states that there are 600.000 stray dogs in the Country and of this 140.000 are housed in various facilities but sadly the rest are fending by themselves.
You probably are not aware that every year and especially in the summer months 100.000 dogs are abandoned, on motorways! tied to a tree in the woods or to the gate of animal shelter. Lesmania is present in all the National territory and the suffering of the animals in the lager kennels are due, yes to the lack of health povision but also to the fact that at times the animals are fed once every three days for lack of funds to purchase the food.
I let you come to the conclusion and decide if Italians are cruel to pets. The fact is that with the number of animals involved is making the problem similar to the Eastern countries of Europe where International Animal Organizations are active to alleviate the problem.
In posting to the forum I tried to achieve what has been asked by many Italians Animal Protection Organizations, which is to take informations about the matter outside the Italian borders and so helping to pressurize the local Authorities/Regional and National in trying to find a solution to this huge problem. I have seen from your posting that you suggeste people to do a google search on the problem of purchasing houses etc., well I suggest you do the same and search for cani randagi - abbandono cani - cani randagi in Molise - canile di Mirabello Sannitico - canile di Cicerale - situazione cani nella penisola Sorrentina.
I think that the result might make change slightly your opinion.


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## Nardini

marzia said:


> You are pobably not aware of the extent of the problem in Italy.


Marzia, I already have told you that I live in Italy - and have done so for many years. As my wife is Italian herself, we know several areas of Italy intimately, as we have either family living there, or in the case of Piemonte, Lombardia, Friuli and Puglia, we have houses there ourselves (mostly family homes). To say that I am "probably not aware" of a problem such as the one you are trying to describe in Italy is showing that you did not absorb my previous post adequately.

There is a problem in parts of Italy, yes. The problem is one that is caused by the private canili (kennels) that take in "stray" dogs being paid for housing each animal that it has "in care" by head count only. This has led to a great many difficult issues that are slowly being recognised across Italy as the owners of these kennels have been making huge amounts of money without having any duty of care - nor any interest - in the dogs they "house". The problem can be compounded when they search out dogs to "make up the numbers" without worrying if the dog has a home already, or not. They are not always very bothered for any of the animals in their "care" being adopted or not either, as they would just have to grab another one, etc. This is a real problem, Marcia, not a problem to attempt to conflate with the xenophobic cry of "all Italians are cruel and heartless", because they most certainly are not.

If you wish to actually do something to help the situation, you could engage in activities that actually help to by-pass the dreaded canili - as many people here do already. Piemonte has recently elected to stop the funding of these canili, thereby removing the cause of some of these issues in Piemonte - other regions are looking to follow that lead, I understand. That is actually doing something rather than spending time on the internet trying to prove an emotional misconception - such as yours.

Please, Marzia, if your interest is real - do something. Don't just troll internet fora to try to make people hate Italy and Italians. If you live here, it is easy - if you live elsewhere, why not help the plight of animals in your own "back yard".


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## Lal

My husband and myself live in Puglia,where the problem with abandoned dogs is immense.We now have in our home 22 dogs and 4 cats. We get no funding from the local council,what we do for them and most of the strays in our area is off our own backs.Just so not to get confused with the private kennels that are paid to take dogs in.

I cannot generalise that all Italians are cruel and heartless,but believe a good many are. Most of our animals were abandoned due to illness.We have had four with broken legs ,four with leishmaniasis,heartworm,rogna rossa,and so on. We know the history of a few of them,so know for a fact the reason behind their abandonment.

I also am aware there is a vast difference between North and South. The mentality here in the deep south is very very different.Where a lot still think its the norm to chain a dog up for its life,or the "hunters", I use the term loosely,that discard their working dog,when they are no longer useful,be it old age or illness. Spaying and nuetering frowned on. I could go on,the list is endless,and yes an awful lot of people do need educating in the care of animals.

We do what we can to help all the sick, stray and abandoned dogs and cats around us.


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## marzia

Nardini you keep talking all of the years experience and knowledge you have.! Rest assured that you are not the only one.Myself and my husband '' beat'' you quiete easily.
I can see you spent some time on the internet the gets all the facts you quote in your posting,certanly more time that I do. If one criticise the behevior of a part of the native population does one become automaticly a xenophe? Does it mean that is OK with you that this is going in Italy? You say that I should do as I preach... well , on the 10 th of March I will start another 6 months assigniement in an animal shelter exatly as I did last year. In suggesting that I should live in another community, well what do you know.. Maybe I should go to live were the 2800 italians that signed a petition about cani randagi live! or maybe the 650 belgian that did the same in their own petition.. all xenophobic?
I did not ask anyone to hate Italy and Italians, I hasked people to espress their view on the srtay dogs.
In all you posting I still have to read ANY word of compassion for the dogs. I wander way..?


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## mosa10

I just want to say to all people, that the way you treat your animals, that is the way you treat people, and I have lost my desire to move to most of countries just becouse of this...


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## mosa10

After I saw document about the Italian way to get out of fix, mainly of dogs, I lost whatever interest in Italy.. Sorry... you have to chance your ways... young people are more aware than you now...


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## marzia

mosa10 said:


> After I saw document about the Italian way to get out of fix, mainly of dogs, I lost whatever interest in Italy.. Sorry... you have to chance your ways... young people are more aware than you now...


Hi, Mosa, I don't know which document you have seen but there are many, with Striscia la Notizia on Canale 5 often shows kennels were dogs are kept in DISGRACEFUL conditions.

The website of Lega Pro Animale of Castel Volturno tells of some activities in trying to reduce ,at least a little , the birth rate of cats and dogs and to ''educate'' ,especially in schools ,young people as the way to look after animals and their welfare. 

The problem of stray dogs is not unique to Italy, but it is unique the way that Italy has managed to make it a racket out of it ( one of many...?) were a group of individuals, no doubt with the '' cooperations'' of local autorities are making lots of money on the skin of the poor dogs. These individuals ,and their bouncers, often attack cameras crews and reporters

You are right , one of the way to jugde the level of civility of a population is to see how they treat theyr animals....


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## mosa10

marzia said:


> Hi, Mosa, I don't know which document you have seen but there are many, with Striscia la Notizia on Canale 5 often shows kennels were dogs are kept in DISGRACEFUL conditions.
> 
> The website of Lega Pro Animale of Castel Volturno tells of some activities in trying to reduce ,at least a little , the birth rate of cats and dogs and to ''educate'' ,especially in schools ,young people as the way to look after animals and their welfare.
> 
> The problem of stray dogs is not unique to Italy, but it is unique the way that Italy has managed to make it a racket out of it ( one of many...?) were a group of individuals, no doubt with the '' cooperations'' of local autorities are making lots of money on the skin of the poor dogs. These individuals ,and their bouncers, often attack cameras crews and reporters
> 
> You are right , one of the way to jugde the level of civility of a population is to see how they treat theyr animals....


And I have thought all my life that Italy is a modern and civilised country, but this have changed my way of thinking. I have travelled in Thailand, for example, there are also many stray dogs, but, as tourists are more and more interested in the wellfare of these animals, the locals are too. I now that Thailand is more than depened on tourism, BUT I think that Italy has more to loose as this goes public...


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## mosa10

And I also know that there are always people who care...


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## mosa10

Are my opions shared with all or...
Is goverment trying to denye thigns... oh you can not...


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## minime01

The south of Italy has many problems, not just with stray dogs. I have my hands full trying to educate the people about how to treat horses, if I start to worry about the dogs too my Italian hubby will freak. It is a disgrace the way the animals live in this country both north and south but most of it is due to lack of education. I have worked with a lot of Farmers who had issues with their horses who were genuinely nice people they just didn't have a clue. We come from a different country with different mentality, we chose to live in this country so we should be very careful about how we approach these matters. Please do not be offensive as 99% of Italians are wonderful people.


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## pugwashington

marzia said:


> Hi every one out there, both full or part timers !!
> 
> I take that most of you are animal lovers , and I am wondering how many of you know the situation for stray dogs ,especially in the South of Italy. Are you aware of the many kennels housing in appaling conditions hundreds of dogs with little food ,non-existing hygenic situation and lack of health assistance ?
> If you care about animals ,please replay


I lived in Greece for 12 years - they have a similar problem and attitudes. It is heartbreaking but then again there were just as many people trying to help the stray dogs and cats as those causing the problem. Its not a nationality that causes this problem but lack of education and poverty.

In Greece they recognise they can not house them and put them back on the streets once recovered from any problem. In the UK they put unwanted healthy dogs down. My Greek street dog was able to roam free, chill out with his mates - pop into the butchers for a bone and be a dog. in the UK he was kept on a lead - taken for walks and was a pet. Some Greek islands have been so denuded of cats by interfering forigners neutering them that they now have a big rat and mouse problem. This results in poison being put down and dogs dying.

Dont assume you are the only person facing this problem or that it caused by the Italians. I know that in my village in Italy there are a bunch of people who regulary feed the village strays out of their own pockets. When I go to live there no doubt I will get a stray Italian dog. There are good and bad people all over the world. 

In the UK they get swept up, taken out of sight and put down. Which society is the better? In the Uk we are getting to the point where we only have pedigree dogs with all their inherited diseases - the heinze 57 variety becoming a thing of the past which is not good news for the dog population. But good news for vets.


Pam


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## nickyl

pugwashington said:


> I lived in Greece for 12 years - they have a similar problem and attitudes. It is heartbreaking but then again there were just as many people trying to help the stray dogs and cats as those causing the problem. Its not a nationality that causes this problem but lack of education and poverty.
> 
> In Greece they recognise they can not house them and put them back on the streets once recovered from any problem. In the UK they put unwanted healthy dogs down. My Greek street dog was able to roam free, chill out with his mates - pop into the butchers for a bone and be a dog. in the UK he was kept on a lead - taken for walks and was a pet. Some Greek islands have been so denuded of cats by interfering forigners neutering them that they now have a big rat and mouse problem. This results in poison being put down and dogs dying.
> 
> Dont assume you are the only person facing this problem or that it caused by the Italians. I know that in my village in Italy there are a bunch of people who regulary feed the village strays out of their own pockets. When I go to live there no doubt I will get a stray Italian dog. There are good and bad people all over the world.
> 
> In the UK they get swept up, taken out of sight and put down. Which society is the better? In the Uk we are getting to the point where we only have pedigree dogs with all their inherited diseases - the heinze 57 variety becoming a thing of the past which is not good news for the dog population. But good news for vets.
> 
> 
> Pam


Hi

We have bought a house near to Vasto the ex owner still farms our land and owns most of the surrounding land he has a little dog she is chained up very near to our house on his land. She is a lovely little thing. Last year she gave birth which added another 2 to his clan one was rehomed the other is chained next to his mother we have had all there inoculations done they have both been chipped and her little boy has now got a pet passport to come to the UK and be rehomed preferably on a local farm I already have 3 dogs all female heinz. Now I thought we had sorted everything no such luck in October on my return the llittle dog never appeared so after a few days of torrential rain I went to look for her I found her chained up further down the land, she had dug herself a basket but was wrapped around a tree I undid her to unravel the chain and found four pups in about an inch of water. I spent the rest of the day building a kennel off the ground to house them they were probably around 3 weeks old to my dismay I then found a fifth pup as she had got herself wound further around the tree she hadnt been able to reach the little wanderer, I buried him. The father questionable she was chained nest to her son. When I go back at Christmas do I take the mother and have her speyed do I talk to the owner what are we going to do with a further 4 pups how many dogs x dogs will we end up with. We live in different cultures I love my Italian lifestyle and have made many new friends I genuinley like the farmer who is the owner of this dog I am just not keen on his petcare I really need some advice.


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## pugwashington

nickyl said:


> Hi
> 
> We have bought a house near to Vasto the ex owner still farms our land and owns most of the surrounding land he has a little dog she is chained up very near to our house on his land. She is a lovely little thing. Last year she gave birth which added another 2 to his clan one was rehomed the other is chained next to his mother we have had all there inoculations done they have both been chipped and her little boy has now got a pet passport to come to the UK and be rehomed preferably on a local farm I already have 3 dogs all female heinz. Now I thought we had sorted everything no such luck in October on my return the llittle dog never appeared so after a few days of torrential rain I went to look for her I found her chained up further down the land, she had dug herself a basket but was wrapped around a tree I undid her to unravel the chain and found four pups in about an inch of water. I spent the rest of the day building a kennel off the ground to house them they were probably around 3 weeks old to my dismay I then found a fifth pup as she had got herself wound further around the tree she hadnt been able to reach the little wanderer, I buried him. The father questionable she was chained nest to her son. When I go back at Christmas do I take the mother and have her speyed do I talk to the owner what are we going to do with a further 4 pups how many dogs x dogs will we end up with. We live in different cultures I love my Italian lifestyle and have made many new friends I genuinley like the farmer who is the owner of this dog I am just not keen on his petcare I really need some advice.


Just show him how to look after his dogs. They will think you are mad foreigner - get him to come out for walks with you and your dogs and his. My friend went through this with a greek family. Most people are just ignorant and thoughtless. It takes time. I would encourage him to have some of the puppies put down. They will probably die anyway. I encourage a friend who has a dog by example - he thinks I am mad but it does work. This year he got his dog a tick collar.


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## bunty16

Anyone contemplating moving to Italy need to develop a strong stomach if fond of animals. Firstly it needs to be said that the Italian people are very kind and friendly and welcome outsiders very well, from my experience it seems that we have different values. In the UK, there is deliberate animal cruelty, and for those who have been away for a while there has been a woman prosecuted recently for putting a cat in a wheelie bin out of pure malice, I cannot see any italian doing such a thing, I agree that their attitudes to animals is so different, and perhaps being brought up in such a culture, can see no wrong in chaining up dogs etc., seeing it as the norm. I am not saying that is right, but trying myself to make sense of things. I have an issue with the street cats, they cannot die out or be greatly reduced as said before you will have a rodent problem, many italians know little of rat/mice infestations, but something needs to be done especially as many kittens either do not stand a chance/die soon after birth/have terrible deformities. There are too many, and a careful approach to this is required, and done in such a way that the locals are not offended and shown a different way of managing their cat colonies, for example, worming and vaccination, and some spaying of queens that have had a litter, would go a long way. The toms have their problems too, I have patched up many a wounded tom, having had fights over the queens, these cats do not live long as life is very harsh. I want to do something, but cannot go in with all guns blazing as I am sure I could get alienated, and you need people to respect you in order to listen to your views. One idea that comes to me is having a 'champion' in each village with the support of the commune, to keep an eye on the cat population, but this is going to take time and I am not sure as yet how to introduce this, so if anyone has been able to make some changes please let me know what you did. Does anyone have any experience of how to get in touch with the public vets that are meant to exsist and help with care of strays.


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## pugwashington

bunty16 said:


> Anyone contemplating moving to Italy need to develop a strong stomach if fond of animals. Firstly it needs to be said that the Italian people are very kind and friendly and welcome outsiders very well, from my experience it seems that we have different values. In the UK, there is deliberate animal cruelty, and for those who have been away for a while there has been a woman prosecuted recently for putting a cat in a wheelie bin out of pure malice, I cannot see any italian doing such a thing, I agree that their attitudes to animals is so different, and perhaps being brought up in such a culture, can see no wrong in chaining up dogs etc., seeing it as the norm. I am not saying that is right, but trying myself to make sense of things. I have an issue with the street cats, they cannot die out or be greatly reduced as said before you will have a rodent problem, many italians know little of rat/mice infestations, but something needs to be done especially as many kittens either do not stand a chance/die soon after birth/have terrible deformities. There are too many, and a careful approach to this is required, and done in such a way that the locals are not offended and shown a different way of managing their cat colonies, for example, worming and vaccination, and some spaying of queens that have had a litter, would go a long way. The toms have their problems too, I have patched up many a wounded tom, having had fights over the queens, these cats do not live long as life is very harsh. I want to do something, but cannot go in with all guns blazing as I am sure I could get alienated, and you need people to respect you in order to listen to your views. One idea that comes to me is having a 'champion' in each village with the support of the commune, to keep an eye on the cat population, but this is going to take time and I am not sure as yet how to introduce this, so if anyone has been able to make some changes please let me know what you did. Does anyone have any experience of how to get in touch with the public vets that are meant to exsist and help with care of strays.


I think you will find that there will be people in every village who help stray cats and dogs and feed them and look out for them. I dont think it needs to be organised. The best thing you can do is find a sympathetic vet who will turn up on certain days and times and offer his/her services for free. The other place to start is with the children educating them about how to look after cats and dogs. In Greece it has to a great extent been children leading the way. In many cases it is lack of money that stops people getting help. If you are poor there is little time to be sentimental. There is a childrens detective program that stars an alsation detective - I think it is swedish - but many childrens attitude to dogs changed after seeing this tv hit series in Greece. There is no simple solution.


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## bunty16

pugwashington said:


> I think you will find that there will be people in every village who help stray cats and dogs and feed them and look out for them. I dont think it needs to be organised. The best thing you can do is find a sympathetic vet who will turn up on certain days and times and offer his/her services for free. The other place to start is with the children educating them about how to look after cats and dogs. In Greece it has to a great extent been children leading the way. In many cases it is lack of money that stops people getting help. If you are poor there is little time to be sentimental. There is a childrens detective program that stars an alsation detective - I think it is swedish - but many childrens attitude to dogs changed after seeing this tv hit series in Greece. There is no simple solution.


I wish there was, but no-one in my village takes any interest, some kind people feed the cats, but not always cat food, but left overs (better than nothing) some leave dry cat food, but not water, and most people leave bottles of water outside their door to deter cats believing they do not like water, they need water. Some people look after their own quite well, but the street cats where I live are neglected, and the vet I called to my own cat worried me with his lack of experience with cats, despite many years at uni', he was more used to dogs and farm animals, so I know he had little or nothing to do with the street cats. The public vet is supposed to be funded to provided free spaying etc., and I asked if anyone had knowledge of this. I do not feel that a childs programme about a 'talking dog' will have much impact, perhaps more informative real life programmes are healthier, I do not have a tv, do people in italy have access to animal channels/national geographic etc., my own grandaughter has learnt a lot about animals from watching these programmes, she would not take talking dogs seriously, and just see it as amusing, so childrens tv needs raising to a higher level perhaps. finally I do not believe there is much poverty where I have my house, everyone has a car, all have tv/internet (well the younger folk do) I do not know the situation re school funding, do they just focus on the basics till they get to college/uni? just thoughts rambling through my mind!


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## mickisue

I have to vehemently disagree with the statement that the way that you treat animals = the way that you treat people. It's untrue from either angle. There are people who treat animals as beloved family members, and are routinely unkind and dismissive of humans. And there are people who are wonderful in their interactions with their fellow humans who are rather indifferent to animals.

I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, as does my husband. We love our two cats, and take good care of them. But we would not ever consider them to be at the level of humans in our hierarchy of those who are important to us. 

Much of what you claim to be cruelty on the part of some Italians is simply a difference, societally, in the view of non-human species. Quite frankly, I'd rather live in a place where human suffering is promptly dealt with by national healthcare, such as Italy, than in a place where animals are granted equal status in the minds of the populace with humans, as in the US. Small wonder that we are planning to become expats!


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## bunty16

mickisue said:


> I have to vehemently disagree with the statement that the way that you treat animals = the way that you treat people. It's untrue from either angle. There are people who treat animals as beloved family members, and are routinely unkind and dismissive of humans. And there are people who are wonderful in their interactions with their fellow humans who are rather indifferent to animals.
> 
> I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, as does my husband. We love our two cats, and take good care of them. But we would not ever consider them to be at the level of humans in our hierarchy of those who are important to us.
> 
> Much of what you claim to be cruelty on the part of some Italians is simply a difference, societally, in the view of non-human species. Quite frankly, I'd rather live in a place where human suffering is promptly dealt with by national healthcare, such as Italy, than in a place where animals are granted equal status in the minds of the populace with humans, as in the US. Small wonder that we are planning to become expats!


 I think you are missing the point and do not understand points made. Who is to say that animals do not need similar needs as humans, warmth, shelter, food, and affection/caring, I have read all the threads and I cannot see evidence of 'humanising' animals, the only thing was the quote re cartoons, which I do not agree with, but at least the writer was thinking of ways of educating children which is better than just complaining and doing nothing. Incidently my own pets are members of my family, and given consideration re their needs. It has nothing to do with hierarchy, but compassion and responsible pet ownership.


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## minime01

mickisue said:


> I have to vehemently disagree with the statement that the way that you treat animals = the way that you treat people. It's untrue from either angle. There are people who treat animals as beloved family members, and are routinely unkind and dismissive of humans. And there are people who are wonderful in their interactions with their fellow humans who are rather indifferent to animals.
> 
> I tend to fall somewhere in the middle, as does my husband. We love our two cats, and take good care of them. But we would not ever consider them to be at the level of humans in our hierarchy of those who are important to us.
> *That is very sad to read, I feel sorry for your cats*
> 
> Much of what you claim to be cruelty on the part of some Italians is simply a difference, societally, in the view of non-human species. Quite frankly, I'd rather live in a place where human suffering is promptly dealt with by national healthcare, such as Italy, than in a place where animals are granted equal status in the minds of the populace with humans, as in the US. Small wonder that we are planning to become expats!


*This is a joke right? So you think that humans come first and then animals. Also the neglected animals in Italy is due to Society difference? *


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## bunty16

I don't know why but you seem intent on an argument, your bold print is quite aggressive, therefore I believe it best to leave you to it.


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## minime01

bunty16 said:


> I don't know why but you seem intent on an argument, your bold print is quite aggressive, therefore I believe it best to leave you to it.


absolutely not! I just put it in bold to make it easier for you to see seeing as it was quiet a long post. I have no need to fight and living in this country for so many years I have learnt that not all people love and treat animals like I do. I wish you a good day


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## kostermar

Lal said:


> My husband and myself live in Puglia,where the problem with abandoned dogs is immense.We now have in our home 22 dogs and 4 cats. We get no funding from the local council,what we do for them and most of the strays in our area is off our own backs.Just so not to get confused with the private kennels that are paid to take dogs in.
> 
> I cannot generalise that all Italians are cruel and heartless,but believe a good many are. Most of our animals were abandoned due to illness.We have had four with broken legs ,four with leishmaniasis,heartworm,rogna rossa,and so on. We know the history of a few of them,so know for a fact the reason behind their abandonment.
> 
> I also am aware there is a vast difference between North and South. The mentality here in the deep south is very very different.Where a lot still think its the norm to chain a dog up for its life,or the "hunters", I use the term loosely,that discard their working dog,when they are no longer useful,be it old age or illness. Spaying and nuetering frowned on. I could go on,the list is endless,and yes an awful lot of people do need educating in the care of animals.
> 
> We do what we can to help all the sick, stray and abandoned dogs and cats around us.


Wonderful to hear of people like yourselves, I have family in southern Italy and noticed that they do not treat their dogs as we do (I am half Scots half Italian) look the hunting fraternity I suppose treat them as hunting dogs, all together in an outhouse, but the pets are tied up or relegated to a tiny confined space. I was shocked. 
We are thinking of moving over to Italy from South Africa, perhaps and shall take our four year old, nearly five, black labbie with us. Hopefully the trip is not too traumatic and he will be treated well? I do not understand, while not allowing my animals to sleep on sofas and beds, my dog is a part of our family and is with us most of the time in our home. How do we educate people, I dont believe in 'handbag dogs' either, they seem to be a fashion accessory for movie stars and teenagers. My main worry is to transport my dog, not to Italy, I seem to have that sorted but from Rome to wherever we decide to settle. I would ideally like to be with him every step of the way but I know this is not permitted.


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## bunty16

I do not understand fully, do you want to travel by road across Italy with your dog? or by trains and buses?if your dog passes the rules for entry into Italy you should have free movement with your dog, I think public transport can insist on a muzzle.


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## kostermar

bunty16 said:


> I do not understand fully, do you want to travel by road across Italy with your dog? or by trains and buses?if your dog passes the rules for entry into Italy you should have free movement with your dog, I think public transport can insist on a muzzle.


Oh thankyou, its quite a thing to get your dog out of South Africa, all the health regulations, but the company who has quoted me has given me the name of a chap in Rome who deals with things over there, probably transporting him to wherever I am, as I shall leave him here until I have found something to rent or buy.
ANyway this is in the future, not sure when, as our house has been on the market for 6 months already and as the rest of the world, no takers yet.


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## noanswer

marzia said:


> Hi every one out there, both full or part timers !!
> 
> I take that most of you are animal lovers , and I am wondering how many of you know the situation for stray dogs ,especially in the South of Italy. Are you aware of the many kennels housing in appaling conditions hundreds of dogs with little food ,non-existing hygenic situation and lack of health assistance ?
> If you care about animals ,please replay


Yeah, my girlfriend is from Palermo in Sicily and every time I've been over there's always been a massive amount of stray dogs and cats roaming about the streets. More so in the suburbs, although I don't really know how it's got so bad. The g/f's sister has a golden lab called Mickey, and he lives almost as well as they do out there! When her and her mum came over to Ireland they spent around 200euros on a good kennel for him for the week, so there are people who care, I guess it just comes down to money and moral judgement.


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## kostermar

noanswer said:


> Yeah, my girlfriend is from Palermo in Sicily and every time I've been over there's always been a massive amount of stray dogs and cats roaming about the streets. More so in the suburbs, although I don't really know how it's got so bad. The g/f's sister has a golden lab called Mickey, and he lives almost as well as they do out there! When her and her mum came over to Ireland they spent around 200euros on a good kennel for him for the week, so there are people who care, I guess it just comes down to money and moral judgement.


Arent there any vets in Italy who do community work? Wo
uldnt it be a good idea to start a spaying campaign? Surely something could be done? Look I can understand in third world countries it happens but hello? Italy?
I suppose though countries have other problems but a country where St Francis of Assisi was born? Surely animals must be one of their top priorities?


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## noanswer

kostermar said:


> Arent there any vets in Italy who do community work? Wo
> uldnt it be a good idea to start a spaying campaign? Surely something could be done? Look I can understand in third world countries it happens but hello? Italy?
> I suppose though countries have other problems but a country where St Francis of Assisi was born? Surely animals must be one of their top priorities?


If I was to guess (because I'm not honestly sure) it would be down to the massive gap between the well off and the quite poor. I never really saw anything being done for nothing, and the people without money I don't think are in a position to overcome such a widespread problem. I'm definitely not making excuses, because there are a hell of a lot of strays knocking about, but it looks like a proper catch 22. 

(people with little money can't afford to battle the problem; people with money won't battle it for free; people with little money can't afford to pay....... etc etc)


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## kostermar

bunty16 said:


> I wish there was, but no-one in my village takes any interest, some kind people feed the cats, but not always cat food, but left overs (better than nothing) some leave dry cat food, but not water, and most people leave bottles of water outside their door to deter cats believing they do not like water, they need water. Some people look after their own quite well, but the street cats where I live are neglected, and the vet I called to my own cat worried me with his lack of experience with cats, despite many years at uni', he was more used to dogs and farm animals, so I know he had little or nothing to do with the street cats. The public vet is supposed to be funded to provided free spaying etc., and I asked if anyone had knowledge of this. I do not feel that a childs programme about a 'talking dog' will have much impact, perhaps more informative real life programmes are healthier, I do not have a tv, do people in italy have access to animal channels/national geographic etc., my own grandaughter has learnt a lot about animals from watching these programmes, she would not take talking dogs seriously, and just see it as amusing, so childrens tv needs raising to a higher level perhaps. finally I do not believe there is much poverty where I have my house, everyone has a car, all have tv/internet (well the younger folk do) I do not know the situation re school funding, do they just focus on the basics till they get to college/uni? just thoughts rambling through my mind!


Yes actually you are correct, everywhere we went, for example Lake Trasimeno, there were little containers outside for the cats, with say pasta or whatever. I know they love their animals, every nation has a different way of treating animals, as long as they are not cruel and I know they're not. Look I know even here in South Africa people will have their animals euthanaised rather than paying huge bills, they dont understand that vets are not only the same as doctors but have a clinic with all the machinery and testing equipment that has to be paid for. I pay for a medical aid for my dog, its not much but gives me peace of mind that if anything expensive ever happens I have made provision. I also have decided that I will only ever have one animal at a time, I also have been instrumental in closing the pet shop who sold dogs and cats at our local shopping centre (complaining to the SPCA) as people even buy their puppies and kittens with their credit cards on budget (paying off) as little Johnny wants a doggy or kitty and when it has grown, it is relegated to the back yard. I know there are more important things in the world like starving people and abused children but lets try and help wherever and whenever we can. (Also rambling).


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## eurozoner

The treatment of stray dogs in the south..is something more akin to Africa...not modern Europe...i also lived around Naples and experienced the awful sight of dogs full of ticks and traffic injuries...i have a few dogs in Verona which i hope to liberate when i can.


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## christinedelrosso

I do not want to get in to a debate one way or the other but I just thought I should mention this. I live in Abruzzo...southern Italy and love it. I feel bad for the stray dogs living in my town of 3,000 people and I am aware of this is other towns. Dogs living on the street with no home or owner. However I have never seen mistreated in anyway, but fed well by everyone. I am not a dog owner nor lover and personally would prefer they were not here. But we are socialists and these are seen as town dogs and the responsibility of everyone to take care of them. I certainly would not let that been a factor in deciding to retire here from the states as soon as I could over a year ago.


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## bunty16

Much education is required re animal welfare, especially southern area's of Italy. There exceptions to the rule, but the attitude to letting the dogs and cats live naturally is flawed, in an ideal world I suppose, but what I see is female cats continually being pregnant, kittens deformed, male cats with terrible wounds frokm fighting over females/food. I have seen a young puppy being bothered by all the male dogs on the street, and she is now pregnant, her owner is ignorant and irresponsible, this poor dog was fun loving till she came onto heat, now she is much older in her manner. There is a cat charity that will do a free spay day for cats, but their is much resistance from the comune's. despite The Paton Saint of animals, little regard is given to animals. Much work is requied to educate the younger generation.


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