# It took two years but I have to admit....



## islander

.....that all of you who said that Egypt was full of lying, cheating, money grabbing scumbags were absolutely right. And I am now totally sick of the constant daily battle to keep my (earned) money in my pocket.

I was sensible - I did my research. I read books. I searched and searched the internet including this forum. And I wondered to myself: Are these really intolerant people? It can't be that bad.

Well, I came fully forewarned and thus fore-armed. And I battled through. I learned some Arabic and had the odd joust with a rogue Egyptian here or there. But the drip, drip, drip has really worn me down.

Let me give you two examples from today. I used a metered taxi to get to my destination - 15LE. I looked to leave and got the usual call of TAX, TAX. So I said, 'Yes. Meter?' I am told, 'No meter,' so I decline. Five seconds later came another call. 'Bikam?' I asked after giving my destination. '50LE' came the reply.

Why do they do it? Spot the white guy and try it on? I don't know. So I launched into a tirade about living here and I am not a tourist.

Finally a taxi. We agree 15LE. I guide him to my destination. Nice guy. I get out and decide to hand him 20LE as a bit of a thank you. And his response? Was it a 'thank you' or 'may God bless you'? No, this termite says, 'Hey mister - 25LE'.

Why do they do it? Do they lack the words 'thank' and 'you' in Arabic? I don't need to hear it in English. I understand some parts of the lingo.

So, anyway, I walked to a local shop and bought 700LE worth of groceries including boxes of water and I paid for delivery. Half an hour later three lads from the shop (a branded shop I hasten to add, not a corner shop) turned up and dropped my stuff off. Hardly a massive endeavour. But it is a hot day so in order for them to get a can of fizzy pop each I give them a tenner. Hardly huge but better than nothing.

Did I get a 'thank you'? Not likely. The lad who took the money held it in his fingers like it was a dirty tissue, tutted and walked off.

I went effing nuclear. I mean properly nuclear. The first time in the two years here that someone's rank rudeness and ill-manners has got me like that. 

So I telephoned the manager of the shop and repeated the nuclear explosion to him. He very kindly told me that he will cut this man's throat by way of an apology and so I thanked him for his restraint.

So, all ye who are now laughing and shouting 'I told you so' at your screens - have I done well to last this long before exploding?

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!


----------



## mamasue

We all have a reality check at some time!
It's great... the sun shines... it never rains....like a permanent vacation!
Then it's......not quite a vacation.....but still nice-ish.... and I love my job (I was a scuba instructor)
Then it's.....Nice-ish.... but working for Egyptians isn't easy....and being ripped off is getting kind of boring....
Then it's....Right....I'm done with this place!

It took me almost 5 years to get to the last one..... I went to work in UAE for a time.....with really nice people.... much more respectful than Egyptians.... but the diving was awful.

I know many people think it's still paradise, but I don't think I'm in the minority !!!


----------



## Sonrisa

The fight is on going, it goes on every day, is mentally draining. Every single day you will encounter someone who will try to rip you off. Its a fact of life in Egypt.

yesterday I totally lost it at the dentist, who lost my file, rip me off badly and called me a liar. That dental clinic was recommended in this very forum. 

The ripping off is getting worse these days, a sign that everyone is suffering and people are getting desperate. After five years of being ripped off, whAt keeps me sane is to know that I am not in the desperate situation that they are.


----------



## MaidenScotland

ohh dont think we ever used the word scumbags


----------



## MaidenScotland

I was in Maadi when someone pushed a prescription into my hand and asked for money, I gave 5 LE and was told it wasn't enough.. I told her to go and ask someone else. 

This week I have been out to Shorouk and was accosted by Syrians..
In Mohandiseen a young girl told me she had come from Alex to find work and now had no money to get home. 
Syrian in Zamalek.
An Egyptian who was dressed in a western style teeshirt plus shorts asking for money, couldn't understand what she was saying other than for blood. 

BUT when watching them afterwards they never ask an Egyptian,


----------



## jemiljan

Sonrisa said:


> The fight is on going, it goes on every day, is mentally draining. Every single day you will encounter someone who will try to rip you off. Its a fact of life in Egypt.
> 
> yesterday I totally lost it at the dentist, who lost my file, rip me off badly and called me a liar. That dental clinic was recommended in this very forum.
> 
> The ripping off is getting worse these days, a sign that everyone is suffering and people are getting desperate. After five years of being ripped off, whAt keeps me sane is to know that I am not in the desperate situation that they are.


Yes, I have to agree that the uptick in swindling and ripoffs has a direct correlation to just how truly desperate people have generally become. With the rise in prices for everything: gas, petrol, food, electricity, etc, coupled with a lack of tourism income has made life a whole lot more tough. 

Some of the right Arabic phrases really helps when dealing with the cabs: I tell them where I need to go and and then always add _law samaḥt_ (if you please), which is very polite. I then get in the cab ad say _as-Salam 'Alaykum_. I make a point to pronounce the phrases as accurately as possible. For example, many foreigners don't pronounce the_ 'ayn_ on the word _'alaykum_ correctly. I fully believe that making an effort to do this as correctly as possible pays big dividends, as it tells the driver that I am not your ordinary khawaga... and they are actually happy to hear someone pronounce the language correctly. 

If they aren't using the meter, I insist, saying _law samaḥt, mumkin tistakhdim al-'adād?_, If they make a fuss, and tell me it doesn't work, etc. will say _Ana asif, lakin lazim birah fi taks bil-'adād illi shighāl_ (I'm sorry, but I must go in a taxi with a working meter). If they still fuss, I say _Tayyib, shukran gazeelan, ha-inzil hina Insha'allah_. "OK, thank you. I'll get out here then, God willing". etc etc. Always pronounce the phrases with an accurate accent, and always be polite, and peppering your language with pious phrases also helps a lot. In doing so, you are telling them that you know their game, and you are better then they are. Some will complain if you ask them, and then resign themselves. If they are being bad, I will resort to more stern pious phrases, like _'aouzu billah_ (I seek refuge in God) uttered with a contemptuous sneer. A few nasty types have elicited some more colourful language in Arabic, but try very hard to never let it get that far.

BTW- Sonrisa, do you mind telling us who the dentist is you mentioned, so that we know to stay away?


----------



## MaidenScotland

jemiljan said:


> Yes, I have to agree that the uptick in swindling and ripoffs has a direct correlation to just how truly desperate people have generally become. With the rise in prices for everything: gas, petrol, food, electricity, etc, coupled with a lack of tourism income has made life a whole lot more tough.
> 
> Some of the right Arabic phrases really helps when dealing with the cabs: I tell them where I need to go and and then always add _law samaḥt_ (if you please), which is very polite. I then get in the cab ad say _as-Salam 'Alaykum_. I make a point to pronounce the phrases as accurately as possible. For example, many foreigners don't pronounce the_ 'ayn_ on the word _'alaykum_ correctly. I fully believe that making an effort to do this as correctly as possible pays big dividends, as it tells the driver that I am not your ordinary khawaga... and they are actually happy to hear someone pronounce the language correctly.
> 
> If they aren't using the meter, I insist, saying _law samaḥt, mumkin tistakhdim al-'adād?_, If they make a fuss, and tell me it doesn't work, etc. will say _Ana asif, lakin lazim birah fi taks bil-'adād illi shighāl_ (I'm sorry, but I must go in a taxi with a working meter). If they still fuss, I say _Tayyib, shukran gazeelan, ha-inzil hina Insha'allah_. "OK, thank you. I'll get out here then, God willing". etc etc. Always pronounce the phrases with an accurate accent, and always be polite, and peppering your language with pious phrases also helps a lot. In doing so, you are telling them that you know their game, and you are better then they are. Some will complain if you ask them, and then resign themselves. If they are being bad, I will resort to more stern pious phrases, like _'aouzu billah_ (I seek refuge in God) uttered with a contemptuous sneer. A few nasty types have elicited some more colourful language in Arabic, but try very hard to never let it get that far.
> 
> BTW- Sonrisa, do you mind telling us who the dentist is you mentioned, so that we know to stay away?




I think you are missing the point.. most of us don't need lessons in Arabic or in manners, perhaps you should try teaching manners to the people who see our foreignness as a right of passage to be ripped off.


----------



## hurghadapat

jemiljan said:


> Yes, I have to agree that the uptick in swindling and ripoffs has a direct correlation to just how truly desperate people have generally become. With the rise in prices for everything: gas, petrol, food, electricity, etc, coupled with a lack of tourism income has made life a whole lot more tough.
> 
> Some of the right Arabic phrases really helps when dealing with the cabs: I tell them where I need to go and and then always add _law samaḥt_ (if you please), which is very polite. I then get in the cab ad say _as-Salam 'Alaykum_. I make a point to pronounce the phrases as accurately as possible. For example, many foreigners don't pronounce the_ 'ayn_ on the word _'alaykum_ correctly. I fully believe that making an effort to do this as correctly as possible pays big dividends, as it tells the driver that I am not your ordinary khawaga... and they are actually happy to hear someone pronounce the language correctly.
> 
> If they aren't using the meter, I insist, saying _law samaḥt, mumkin tistakhdim al-'adād?_, If they make a fuss, and tell me it doesn't work, etc. will say _Ana asif, lakin lazim birah fi taks bil-'adād illi shighāl_ (I'm sorry, but I must go in a taxi with a working meter). If they still fuss, I say _Tayyib, shukran gazeelan, ha-inzil hina Insha'allah_. "OK, thank you. I'll get out here then, God willing". etc etc. Always pronounce the phrases with an accurate accent, and always be polite, and peppering your language with pious phrases also helps a lot. In doing so, you are telling them that you know their game, and you are better then they are. Some will complain if you ask them, and then resign themselves. If they are being bad, I will resort to more stern pious phrases, like _'aouzu billah_ (I seek refuge in God) uttered with a contemptuous sneer. A few nasty types have elicited some more colourful language in Arabic, but try very hard to never let it get that far.
> 
> BTW- Sonrisa, do you mind telling us who the dentist is you mentioned, so that we know to stay away?


Easiest way especially if you know how much the correct fare is to tell driver where you want to go....have correct money or near enough....get out of taxi when you arrive then hand the money in through the window and walk away....ignore any shouting by the driver....always worked for me as knew all the prices in Hurghada having lived there for quite some time


----------



## jemiljan

MaidenScotland said:


> I think you are missing the point.. most of us don't need lessons in Arabic or in manners, perhaps you should try teaching manners to the people who see our foreignness as a right of passage to be ripped off.


No, I wasn't "missing the point" at all; I was quite obviously offering some language tips that in my own personal experience are useful and of considerable help. Also forgive me, but I thoroughly beg to differ that "most of us" expats "don't need lessons in Arabic". If you want to live here, it's an essential skill, and one that even for me, needs to be continually honed. The effort spent is well worth it and it can make life here quite a bit easier to manage.


----------



## jemiljan

hurghadapat said:


> Easiest way especially if you know how much the correct fare is to tell driver where you want to go....have correct money or near enough....get out of taxi when you arrive then hand the money in through the window and walk away....ignore any shouting by the driver....always worked for me as knew all the prices in Hurghada having lived there for quite some time


I absolutely agree with everything you said. It's also definitely a lot easier in a smaller town. The main problem here in Cairo is insisting that they need to use the meter, and how to handle the situation when they refuse. It's always uncomfortable, but the few phrases I suggested can really help.


----------



## hurghadapat

jemiljan said:


> I absolutely agree with everything you said. It's also definitely a lot easier in a smaller town. The main problem here in Cairo is insisting that they need to use the meter, and how to handle the situation when they refuse. It's always uncomfortable, but the few phrases I suggested can really help.



Well i do speak arabic as well....but who wants or should have to go through all of that every time you use a taxi.

In hurghada you are lucky if you can see the meter...they have or had a fondness for having furry dash boards so the meter was covered....also they don't always clear the meter after the last passenger,another way of ripping off the tourists or ex-pats if you should forget to check when you get in. Have tried doing it your way but soon got tired of that as most of them are more than happy to let you get out of the taxi and lose the business.

You can take their number and report them to the police but they just pay the backsheesh and they are back on the road again.

All these prices should be set by the government and should be displayed at airports,hotels taxi ranks etc.


----------



## MaidenScotland

jemiljan said:


> No, I wasn't "missing the point" at all; I was quite obviously offering some language tips that in my own personal experience are useful and of considerable help. Also forgive me, but I thoroughly beg to differ that "most of us" expats "don't need lessons in Arabic". If you want to live here, it's an essential skill, and one that even for me, needs to be continually honed. The effort spent is well worth it and it can make life here quite a bit easier to manage.




As the original poster said he speaks some arabic, and I am pretty certain the rest of us regular posters speak enough Arabic to get by .. this is what I meant with we don't need arabic lesson


----------



## Moe599

Hey I feel everyone and hear everything. I finally left Egypt because I got so sick and frustrated with the daily routine. Everyone I met or I spoke to, I felt or I should say I knew that their only motive was how they were going to rip me off. It got to the point were I didn't even want to leave my flat anymore because I didn't want to have to deal with the struggle of arguing with them, that I know what their intentions are. 

Good riddance and good luck.


----------



## MaidenScotland

I have some lovely Egyptian friends who acknowledge with anger and embarrassment that foreigners are indeed a target for rip off merchants and they are on every street corner waiting for us, if they think foreign money is "supporting" Egyptian then that is also to be ripped off. 

example... animal charity phones up and ask for a quote on a huge amount of rice not mentioning they are a charity and are given one price, two minutes later another person phones and ask the price stating they are a charity, price is almost 25% more for the charity and when challenged is told it's not your money it's foreigners.

When you have a government that freely advertises one price for Egyptians then another for foreigners.. then you have no hope. 


There may be people here who have not been ripped off and no they are not lucky they just don't know they have been fleeced. 

Quite simply, we would not accept people ripping us off in our home country, so why should it be acceptable to us here, the person who is doing the ripping off is the one at fault.. not the visitor in the street


----------



## CAIRODEMON

mamasue said:


> We all have a reality check at some time!
> It's great... the sun shines... it never rains....like a permanent vacation!
> Then it's......not quite a vacation.....but still nice-ish.... and I love my job (I was a scuba instructor)
> Then it's.....Nice-ish.... but working for Egyptians isn't easy....and being ripped off is getting kind of boring....
> Then it's....Right....I'm done with this place!
> 
> It took me almost 5 years to get to the last one..... I went to work in UAE for a time.....with really nice people.... much more respectful than Egyptians.... but the diving was awful.
> 
> I know many people think it's still paradise, but I don't think I'm in the minority !!!


No, you are certainly not in the minority. I think that it is a cumulative thing, rather like radiation exposure. Drip, drip and then you explode. Every ex-patriate should spend a little time out of Egypt (especially Cairo) at least every three months.

But are we being entirely fair here? Life is incredibly tough for many Egyptians, just paying the rent and putting food on the table for the family is a dreadful struggle. Economically it's bad and likely to get worse, the Government seems entirely clueless and what lies in the future? Does that excuse poor behaviour or attempts to effectively steal from people, of course not, but let's try and cut a little slack. To many of these people we would seem to posses more wealth then they could ever dream of accumulating. Let's assume that you have worked your way through the educational system (which is tough) and have graduated, but no way can you find a job. Yet, to your mind at least, the place is full of Khawagas, the majority of whom, in Cairo at least, will be working here, and on the face of it be doing well. If said graduate is at all clever he/she will appreciate that there must be a reason for companies to hire these expensive foreigners, but it still must hurt like hell!

Personally I try and deal with everyone that I come into contact with, with a degree of respect, and yes I also give out tips to a lot of people, not big amounts just enough to say"I appreciate you efforts". Most (admittedly not all) of the time the response is good, certainly much better than other countries in which I have worked, where virtually any amount given was deemed to be not enough.

As for taxis, either insist on the meter, to the extent of getting out if it's not turned on, or try and be aware of the correct amount, pay it and do not enter into any form of conversation with the driver.

Overall despite several incidents I still consider the majority of the Egyptian people to be decent and essentially courteous, unless of course they are driving some form of motorised vehicle, or work around the pyramids area!

Hey, it's tough for most of us, but it's a lot worse for most of them.


----------



## cairo tiger

My bawab is always trying to rip me off but I also know that he hasn't seen his wife and kids in 2 years and he has to sleep in a closet beneath a staircase.

So you know, it's all relative really. 

Yes on the one hand you're treated liking a walking wallet. On the other hand, you're privileged to have a wallet.


----------



## MaidenScotland

cairo tiger said:


> My bawab is always trying to rip me off but I also know that he hasn't seen his wife and kids in 2 years and he has to sleep in a closet beneath a staircase.
> 
> So you know, it's all relative really.
> 
> Yes on the one hand you're treated liking a walking wallet. On the other hand, you're privileged to have a wallet.





Sorry disagree.. I am on a contract that actually only gives me a month off per year and I am supposed to take that all in one hit.. so I was only seeing my family once a year.. 

A guy that works with me is 65 and has worked overseas since he was 32, he has spent in total 10 years of his 40 year marriage actually with his wife..

I really cannot understand why people make excuses when people rip you off, theft is theft.. regardless


----------



## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> Sorry disagree.. I am on a contract that actually only gives me a month off per year and I am supposed to take that all in one hit.. so I was only seeing my family once a year..
> 
> A guy that works with me is 65 and has worked overseas since he was 32, he has spent in total 10 years of his 40 year marriage actually with his wife..
> 
> I really cannot understand why people make excuses when people rip you off, theft is theft.. regardless


Amen


----------



## canuck2010

In a country like Egypt, where most people learn about how to be corrupt right after they learn how to walk, corruption is a relative term. 

In these tough economic times, I find people are nicer if you tip them well. It's not a bribe if you're rewarding good performance or service.


----------



## Biffy

We are not talking about tipping - we are talking about being fleeced / ripped off by all and sundry every day.

If I go somewhere and get good service - I will tip - I have no problem with that up to a point.
But why should i tip when i have just paid a bill and paid 12% service.
Or if i have to tip for pople to be polite to me - then no problem be grumpy - you will save me a fortune.

But when i go to buy a kilo of tomatoes and the guy charges me double what he charges the Egyptian next to me / or the guy for the gas bottles tries to charge me 50 instead of 25 LE - then I bloody well do mind.

I also mind when waiting outside the bakery whilst my daughter goes and buys a few LE of Aish that a well dressed lady - comes up to us asking for money, when she has shopping bags in her hand and looks like she isn't destitute. And again the only ones she approaches are the stupid European looking ones - the Egyptian guy standing next to me is left alone.
WHt am I supposed to make of that?


----------



## Guest

I feel bad for my Egyptian husband every time we went shopping while we lived in Egypt together. We've lived off and on in Cairo and Hurghada over the years. 

When ever people see me they'd want to charge more and we have to spend forty-five minutes to an hour negotiating with them to get the local price. It's exhausting explaining over and over again. "I'm his wife. We've been married for years. I live here with him. We need the local price as my husband makes the money and supports us so we can't afford the higher prices."

Our bawab's would only come and ask for extra money during the holidays to go home and see their family. They never ask me for anything. They deal with my husband regarding the money and they'd always have some lengthy story to go along with why they were requesting extra money. Since it's the holidays my husband almost always gives them the money they're requesting.


----------



## Biffy

I have exactly the same situation - but my husband won't argue / negotiate for so long - he offers what he knows to be a fair price - and if they don't accept then we go home without it!!

The funniest ones are those who think my Husband is actually our guide - this has happened in Khan El Khalili, the Pyramids, Luxor to name a few - they speak to him in an aside basically telling him that if he will help them get as much money as possible out of me for any items - then they will give him some of the profit.
Their faces are priceless when he tells them actually I am his wife!!

There have been times when we know what we have wanted / or we go in separately and I point at what I want - then he will come up behind me and buy. When it's a done deal then he calls me over - again priceless!!

In some instances I have even been left outsdie the shop so that we are not seen together and we get the right price.

And then what about the guy who came to repair a broken window - they came and measured - took the design as it is etched - gave my husband a price.
WHen they came to fit the glass my husband wasn't in - they fitted then when I asked how much 600LE. What - hmm I don't think so, you told my husband 250 LE - ok ok, 500 - not a chance mate here's your 250 or please remove it and take it away. Menawhile phoning my husband who went crazy at them down the phone!

Thnk this is a case of 'don't get me started'!!

It does get you down somewhat - I hate the constant feeling that everyone is trying to fleece me - and that no matter how hard I try at least one of them will succeed!!


----------



## emmab73

I agree Biffy it's somewhat tiring to say the least, and I've only had a few weeks of it so far


----------



## Guest

I wonder if my husband enjoys the bargaining or driving an ethical point home.

I've had those same experiences you've described. In Hurghada they'd ask if he was my guide and try to make a deal on the side. In Cairo we'll go shopping and the process will take a week to get something I want. Either he or his Sisters will go back and get it for me. Eventually I'd go to places where prices are set or to the routine places where they know me and my husband.

I don't answer the door when home alone. If a maintenance man comes my husband has to be there and I don't deal with the money part. I redirect everyone to him.

When we're close to tourist areas we're targets for beggars. After the fifth one in a matter of hours I just say no. They're pretty confrontational about it too. Some seem aggressive demanding money even if they look like they need money or not. That's the part that bothers me the most. Being cornered with my back against the wall while sitting at a cafe having a cup of tea. Being stopped right in my tracks while in a hurry walking somewhere by a young lady with a child on her hip and her hand out.

In some places if I'm alone the men will walk with me and keep pace even if I don't make eye contact. They'll ask me personal questions, try to hawk their wares, or ask for money. 

Even at the Cairo International airport when I'm beyond security someone is there to insert themselves by insisting on pushing my bags to the line I need to be in. It's a matter of a few feet and I'm capable of handling it myself but they don't even give you a chance to tell them no. Then they politely insist on being tipped. If you don't have a tip because all the Egyptian money is with your husband they'll do a slight of hand and steal you sparkly luggage tag right off your bags while you're distracted with the tactics. It literally was stealing and when it happened I didn't realize it until it's was too late and they were already gone with my luggage tag with name and address and telephone number in the States.

I worry about this next trip going back because I'm concerned the situation is possibly more desperate. I try not to let it bother me too much and read up on what I can so I'm more aware and cautious.


----------



## Biffy

LOL! Emmab - you thought you were prepared for Cairo after a short visit from the UAE (paradise by the way compared to here).

I have lived here for a while now - and I'm still not prepared!!


----------



## MaidenScotland

Biffy said:


> We are not talking about tipping - we are talking about being fleeced / ripped off by all and sundry every day.
> 
> If I go somewhere and get good service - I will tip - I have no problem with that up to a point.
> But why should i tip when i have just paid a bill and paid 12% service.
> Or if i have to tip for pople to be polite to me - then no problem be grumpy - you will save me a fortune.
> 
> But when i go to buy a kilo of tomatoes and the guy charges me double what he charges the Egyptian next to me / or the guy for the gas bottles tries to charge me 50 instead of 25 LE - then I bloody well do mind.
> 
> I also mind when waiting outside the bakery whilst my daughter goes and buys a few LE of Aish that a well dressed lady - comes up to us asking for money, when she has shopping bags in her hand and looks like she isn't destitute. And again the only ones she approaches are the stupid European looking ones - the Egyptian guy standing next to me is left alone.
> WHt am I supposed to make of that?



There is a guy who begs outside Diwan, he isn't there all the time but a great deal of the time, quite well dressed and often has a cane or walks with a limp, he lives in the same building as my friend, him and his brother beg for a living, my friend tells me they have a car and are fairly comfortable. 

I always always give if someone is selling tissues. I never take the tissues but I do appreciate that they are trying to do something rather than just put their hand out. 

I told the story on here about the young boy who tried to sell me flowers, I paid for the flowers but didn't take them only to find him later on in the day taking my hand to help me cross the road.. that boy still waves to me.


----------



## kevinthegulf

Having spent two and a half years in Egypt, one of the best feelings I have ever had was sitting in business having a cold beer as the Gulf air flight crossed the gulf of Suez heading for Bahrain.
I started in Egypt with a positive attitude but was gradually worn down by the constant battles profesionally at work especially when i ended up as the most senior expat manager. Life with a regional expat area manager insulated us from the local management, when he left thats when the real change began.
The revolution kicckstarted the downward spiral on social/non work life.

There is no doubt that some people do cope, but usually are somewhat insulated from life there or are paid well enough that it compensates for the hassle. or you are one of the happy clappy brigade that thinks its a privelege to be there. it difficult to remember any positives, other than social ones without much local involvement.

With one or two notable exceptions, a happy smiling face greeting you was just out for your cash. Rather sad really. I dont envy those still there, my replacement a non egyptian arab is having a nightmare and he speaks the language.


----------



## hurghadapat

kevinthegulf said:


> Having spent two and a half years in Egypt, one of the best feelings I have ever had was sitting in business having a cold beer as the Gulf air flight crossed the gulf of Suez heading for Bahrain.
> I started in Egypt with a positive attitude but was gradually worn down by the constant battles profesionally at work especially when i ended up as the most senior expat manager. Life with a regional expat area manager insulated us from the local management, when he left thats when the real change began.
> The revolution kicckstarted the downward spiral on social/non work life.
> 
> There is no doubt that some people do cope, but usually are somewhat insulated from life there or are paid well enough that it compensates for the hassle. or you are one of the happy clappy brigade that thinks its a privelege to be there. it difficult to remember any positives, other than social ones without much local involvement.
> 
> With one or two notable exceptions, a happy smiling face greeting you was just out for your cash. Rather sad really. I dont envy those still there, my replacement a non egyptian arab is having a nightmare and he speaks the language.


Nice to see you back on the forum again.....take it that life is good for you now you are out of Egypt


----------



## jemiljan

MaidenScotland said:


> As the original poster said he speaks some arabic, and I am pretty certain the rest of us regular posters speak enough Arabic to get by .. this is what I meant with we don't need arabic lesson


Only my point wasn't a reply to the original poster. It's simple, helpful tips. 
Take it or leave it. 
Or is that not the purpose of this forum?


----------



## charleen

I am neither in a happy bubble with lots of money or pissed off everyday. I have my family and friends and we do what we do....we dont really let the rest of it get to us...I do know that if i was back in seattle i would have a crap job or no job....not get the education for my daughter that she gets here and here aboit murders or shootings quite a bit. I think both places have their ups and downs and i just choose to be here with my family and in laws and together we are happy....


----------



## MaidenScotland

charleen said:


> I am neither in a happy bubble with lots of money or pissed off everyday. I have my family and friends and we do what we do....we dont really let the rest of it get to us...I do know that if i was back in seattle i would have a crap job or no job....not get the education for my daughter that she gets here and here aboit murders or shootings quite a bit. I think both places have their ups and downs and i just choose to be here with my family and in laws and together we are happy....




This is probably the difference.. when do you stop becoming an expat and become an immigrant, living here with family I suspect is so much more different than being an expat alone. 


As for crime.. we have discussed here many many times how crime figures are manipulated or indeed crimes never even reported, do you not remember when the Bangladeshi guy I work with was robbed at gunpoint, he never reported it, he said to me .. what is the point, when my maid stole my debit card.. I had to pay for a police report to be written and once I told them it was her they closed the case.. they never even looked for her.


----------



## canuck2010

I live in a bubble and wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## charleen

I live....plain and simple...I live life and we love what we have...


----------



## Biffy

Trust me living here with family really doesn't make a difference!

Even part of my husbands family think we are a soft touch to borrow money from / or if they come over we pay for everything!

My children know we are here for a reason - and they have day / times when they beg to go back to the UK.

I don't live in a bubble - and yes I do get pissed off on some days, and no family doesn't make it easier - sometimes it is harder.


----------



## charleen

We live here as happily as possible but if we got to the point of being pissed about life in egypt we would fix it. We are here cause we like OUR life here and our family is good here. It could be good somewhere else and it could suck big time somewhere else.....we make our life here good...that is all i am saying.


----------



## kevinthegulf

hurghadapat said:


> Nice to see you back on the forum again.....take it that life is good for you now you are out of Egypt


I had 13 nice months in Bahrain, lovely place, the troubles were barely noticable to my day, sadly that will rumble on for a long time, unfortunately we closed the office & I was moved to Qatar, totally different place. Bahrain was a night out with the lads, Qatar is afternoon tea at Harrods

Very glad to be out of Egypt, my wife never complained much when we were there, bbut after we left said how happy she was to be away from the harrassment, lying & cheating, as a muslim herself she could never get over the hypocracy of the bruised forehead and blatant ripping off and sexual harassment,

I like to follow the egypt forum as the one round here needs a defibrillator.


----------



## Guest

MaidenScotland said:


> This is probably the difference.. when do you stop becoming an expat and become an immigrant, living here with family I suspect is so much more different than being an expat alone.


I hadn't really thought about it like that but I guess there's some truth to it. During my first stay we had a place near the Egyptian Stock Exchange in downtown Cairo. In a building where other foreigners lived that attended AUC. I really liked that area a lot. Funny though during the first few weeks when walking together out in the street the police or military would stop my husband and question him why he was with me and if we were staying together in the area. He'd tell them we were married and then they'd request to see our papers. We were newly married and he'd tell them, "No, do you carry around your marriage papers?" Then they'd leave us alone.

He wouldn't take me to where his parents lived in El Zaytoun. He seemed embarrassed to take me there because he felt it was old, run down and not such a great place anymore. He says his parents should have moved years ago when the other families left to move on and up. His parents did build a house out in the new development at the time, 6th of October, but instead decided to rent it out. One of the flats is ours but I've never been inside it myself. 

On the second trip he finally took me to his parents house and I saw how the majority of the middle class in Egypt lived.  It was eye opening and really interesting to see how the family unit operates on a daily basis. If I was on my own and not part of a family I may not have had this insightful experience. There was something magical about the place at night when the full moon rose and neighbors are on their balcony's talking to each other and watching the street traffic. I'll never forget it.

In Qena where his roots are from I did feel part of the extended family unit when we'd stay with them a couple of times for visits. I was very impressed with the beauty of Upper Egypt being so lusciously green and gorgeous. I always enjoy the trip by train. Luxor feels so much more relaxing and at an easier pace than the bustle of Cairo and I hardly was ever harassed by anyone while seeing the sites. 

It's also difficult not to run into someone he's related to down there. Everyone seems to know him. One guys saw us in the street and shouted something like, "Foreigners are our guests, we should treat them well," and then hugged my husband. Though the family still treat me like a foreign guest. One side of the family would say I don't have to do things like they do such as wear a veil, because I'm beyond that, and they mean it. They want me to be comfortable but while there they'd dress me in house dresses and my husband would wear a galabeya. Even the little boys would wear them and look so cute. They're more liberal and laid back in the country. The other side of the family there is more conservative but also gracious and kind towards me.

In Hurghada we didn't know anybody there except for his friends from college that he worked with. So our family wasn't around and it was just us on our own. It felt very different from the other places. More tourist like. We were able to make friends with other married couples like us living in the area. That's where we lived the longest on our own in Egypt. I really liked Hurghada and the resort town of El Gouna. My oldest friends from other countries like El Gouna as well and would travel to Egypt just to stay there every couple of years. 

This time when we go back next year we'll rent a flat in Cairo. My Mom is coming for a couple of weeks this time, and we'll have a second bedroom for her. It will be her first trip to Egypt. So she'll get to see the sites, meet his family and go shopping. For as embarrassed as he is about the area he grew up falling into disrepair I like the shopping in that area the best. It doesn't seem over whelming and it's surprisingly close. I'd like to see Alexandria so maybe Mom will be interested in going there with us as I still haven't been yet.

We have a couple of options since his older Sister and her husband have several flats we've stayed in here and there. There's the one in Giza, which was their first flat. Now they live in a really nice one near the Presidential Palace. Sometimes when they go to their place in Damietta they go to for the summer and we stay in their place. We're not the only family members that get to stay at these places so I guess we'll see how it works out but I'd like to be in the area near the stock exchange again if it's not too crowded or near protests happening.

I hope I didn't write too much of a book. I sort of drifted thinking about the expat and immigrant topic.


----------



## hurghadapat

zaytoona said:


> I hadn't really thought about it like that but I guess there's some truth to it. During my first stay we had a place near the Egyptian Stock Exchange in downtown Cairo. In a building where other foreigners lived that attended AUC. I really liked that area a lot. Funny though during the first few weeks when walking together out in the street the police or military would stop my husband and question him why he was with me and if we were staying together in the area. He'd tell them we were married and then they'd request to see our papers. We were newly married and he'd tell them, "No, do you carry around your marriage papers?" Then they'd leave us alone.
> 
> He wouldn't take me to where his parents lived in El Zaytoun. He seemed embarrassed to take me there because he felt it was old, run down and not such a great place anymore. He says his parents should have moved years ago when the other families left to move on and up. His parents did build a house out in the new development at the time, 6th of October, but instead decided to rent it out. One of the flats is ours but I've never been inside it myself.
> 
> On the second trip he finally took me to his parents house and I saw how the majority of the middle class in Egypt lived. It was eye opening and really interesting to see how the family unit operates on a daily basis. If I was on my own and not part of a family I may not have had this insightful experience. There was something magical about the place at night when the full moon rose and neighbors are on their balcony's talking to each other and watching the street traffic. I'll never forget it.
> 
> In Qena where his roots are from I did feel part of the extended family unit when we'd stay with them a couple of times for visits. I was very impressed with the beauty of Upper Egypt being so lusciously green and gorgeous. I always enjoy the trip by train. Luxor feels so much more relaxing and at an easier pace than the bustle of Cairo and I hardly was ever harassed by anyone while seeing the sites.
> 
> It's also difficult not to run into someone he's related to down there. Everyone seems to know him. One guys saw us in the street and shouted something like, "Foreigners are our guests, we should treat them well," and then hugged my husband. Though the family still treat me like a foreign guest. One side of the family would say I don't have to do things like they do such as wear a veil, because I'm beyond that, and they mean it. They want me to be comfortable but while there they'd dress me in house dresses and my husband would wear a galabeya. Even the little boys would wear them and look so cute. They're more liberal and laid back in the country. The other side of the family there is more conservative but also gracious and kind towards me.
> 
> In Hurghada we didn't know anybody there except for his friends from college that he worked with. So our family wasn't around and it was just us on our own. It felt very different from the other places. More tourist like. We were able to make friends with other married couples like us living in the area. That's where we lived the longest on our own in Egypt. I really liked Hurghada and the resort town of El Gouna. My oldest friends from other countries like El Gouna as well and would travel to Egypt just to stay there every couple of years.
> 
> This time when we go back next year we'll rent a flat in Cairo. My Mom is coming for a couple of weeks this time, and we'll have a second bedroom for her. It will be her first trip to Egypt. So she'll get to see the sites, meet his family and go shopping. For as embarrassed as he is about the area he grew up falling into disrepair I like the shopping in that area the best. It doesn't seem over whelming and it's surprisingly close. I'd like to see Alexandria so maybe Mom will be interested in going there with us as I still haven't been yet.
> 
> We have a couple of options since his older Sister and her husband have several flats we've stayed in here and there. There's the one in Giza, which was their first flat. Now they live in a really nice one near the Presidential Palace. Sometimes when they go to their place in Damietta they go to for the summer and we stay in their place. We're not the only family members that get to stay at these places so I guess we'll see how it works out but I'd like to be in the area near the stock exchange again if it's not too crowded or near protests happening.
> 
> I hope I didn't write too much of a book. I sort of drifted thinking about the expat and immigrant topic.


No certainly not too much of a book....just a really nice read about your time in Egypt


----------



## Biffy

It's not visiting that I have a problem with - I can cope with most things if I know that it is for a limited tiem and then I can go home.
I can cope with the trip of 'going to the village' to see my Husbands pareant and family - again I know I am there for a limited time and can go home.

I am pretty resilient and don't get 'pissed off' very easily - optimist by nature.

But over the few years we have actually lived here I have been ground down. The daily battles that were 'interesting' at first have got to me.
Everytime we have some work down at home - I know that when it comes time to pay the guy is going to double his price (only double if I am lucky), not going to have any change if a give him a large note (much patting of all the pocjkets), etc.

I have travlled around Mexico - stayed for months at a time, but I really wouldn't like to live there. 
WHat seems fun and exciting for a few weeks as a tourist - and even if you are married to an EGyptian when you come visiting that is still what you are.

What you will put up with from your in-laws for a few weeks - starts to get stale. 
ANd even your views on life are very different so to have a conversation about the world / world politics, etc. is very wearing -everything is a conspiracy theory.

I find family adds a different aspect of pressure.
This is the same with in-laws everywhere I know - but also when you get a clash of cultures it does get difficult.

Even my husband who is EGyptian gets fed up with it.
He has his own business here and has found that no-one is straight, so it isn't just Expats who get shafted - it just when they shaft each other it gets done in different ways.


----------

