# Treatment of Helpers



## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

I live in a large compound that has been subdivided into six walled sub-compounds. My wife and I occupy one of the sub-compounds, while three other sub-compounds are occupied by my in-laws. My wife and I don't have a maid or helper, but each of my in-laws have at least a female maid, and one or two helper boys. 

One of my in-laws is getting on in her years, and I suspect that she is starting to get a little senile. She is constantly complaining about financial problems, and I noticed that recently she cut back on the amount and type of food she is feeding her male helpers. In addition, she makes them sleep on cots next to her car, in case anyone tries to steal her gasoline at night. I talked to the old lady's husband, he agreed that the treatment was inhumane, but he simply said, "What can I do, that is her sickness."

My wife says that the type of rice she is feeding them is something that it normally not used for human consumption (has a lot of dirt and rock) and she also gives them salted fish once a day. Both of these boys have lost a lot of weight, and right now one of them is very sick. If I had to guess, I'd say that their both getting around 1,000 - 1,500 calories a day, and what they are eating probably doesn't contain much in the way of vitamins and minerals. On top of that, she works these two boys ragged like a pair of Chinese *******. 

(Apparently part of the problem may stem from the fact that the parents of these two boys borrowed money from my in-laws, and failed to pay it back. Thus the boys were sent to work of the debt.)

I know that this may sound like a naive question, but is there any government agency here that looks out for the welfare of domestic servants? My wife and I have been giving them extra food, but we can't really afford to feed other people's workers, especially when we decided that hiring our own maid is money not well spent. I


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Maxx62 said:


> I live in a large compound that has been subdivided into six walled sub-compounds. My wife and I occupy one of the sub-compounds, while three other sub-compounds are occupied by my in-laws. My wife and I don't have a maid or helper, but each of my in-laws have at least a female maid, and one or two helper boys.
> 
> One of my in-laws is getting on in her years, and I suspect that she is starting to get a little senile. She is constantly complaining about financial problems, and I noticed that recently she cut back on the amount and type of food she is feeding her male helpers. In addition, she makes them sleep on cots next to her car, in case anyone tries to steal her gasoline at night. I talked to the old lady's husband, he agreed that the treatment was inhumane, but he simply said, "What can I do, that is her sickness."
> 
> ...


Doubtful


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Yes there are very strict and extensive laws regarding the pay and conditions for helpers, minimum wage, health care, sss, working hours etc. All religiously enforced in the normal Philippine way. Unless you are a kano of course then a lot more scrutiny is applied.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

Nice that you care but unless you can afford to pay for all they need I'd forget about it. Harsh, but reality in that country.


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## Phil_expat (Jan 3, 2011)

Your reply does seem harsh and uncaring but it is realistic. When I moved to the Philippines I was sadden by so many living in horrible condition and tried to help. I just could not walk away and turn my back on those in need. I got a text from a man I help that had am infected leg. It would have gotten serious if he did not get medical care. I paid a 15,000 hospital bill. He text me that his brother’s wife sister was in the hospital and could I help. I have changed now. Yes I still help but not as much and in other ways. There is a woman that sleeps in the street with her young child. Whenever I see that lady sleeping I stick some money in her bag. Helping those boys may cause family strain, I would not do it.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Phil_expat said:


> Your reply does seem harsh and uncaring but it is realistic. When I moved to the Philippines I was sadden by so many living in horrible condition and tried to help. I just could not walk away and turn my back on those in need. I got a text from a man I help that had am infected leg. It would have gotten serious if he did not get medical care. I paid a 15,000 hospital bill. He text me that his brother’s wife sister was in the hospital and could I help. I have changed now. Yes I still help but not as much and in other ways. There is a woman that sleeps in the street with her young child. Whenever I see that lady sleeping I stick some money in her bag. Helping those boys may cause family strain, I would not do it.


Phil_Expat...a very valiant effort to help those around you and I am the same way! I just can't seem to walk away when I know I have the means to help someone, HOWEVER; with that being said, you might want to change the way you are helping the lady sleeping on the street.

Simply sticking some money into her bag may not be helping her at all. Many times, I have seen street urchins going through other peoples personal belongings while they are asleep and stealing anything of value.

They have nothing to lose and no deterrents if they get caught stealing form another street person.

I would hate to think that you are trying to help this lady with a little money and then someone else is stealing it from her bag after you have left the area. She may not actually be getting your assistance in the end.

I hope this is not the case for you and thank you for caring about others and doing what you can! Kudo's to you my friend...


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

Phil_expat said:


> Your reply does seem harsh and uncaring but it is realistic. When I moved to the Philippines I was sadden by so many living in horrible condition and tried to help. I just could not walk away and turn my back on those in need. I got a text from a man I help that had am infected leg. It would have gotten serious if he did not get medical care. I paid a 15,000 hospital bill. He text me that his brother’s wife sister was in the hospital and could I help. I have changed now. Yes I still help but not as much and in other ways. There is a woman that sleeps in the street with her young child. Whenever I see that lady sleeping I stick some money in her bag. Helping those boys may cause family strain, I would not do it.


Oh believe me, I'm softie and wish I could help everyone here...but as it appears in your case it only perpetuates and grows from there when you try to help one....who knows if your second request for assistance was legit or not.

I think it's cruel to get someone used to a higher standard if you're not going maintain that for them permanently...giving them a taste of something better for a period of time makes it more bitter when its gone imo. Heck, they could be waiting for you with a bolo some night because they want it back.

I just came to the conclusion that there's nowhere to start and it would never end if that makes sense. I concentrate my assistance on family members that have proven over years they're worthy of receiving it.

Unlike some on this site it appears, like mcalleyboy said, I'm on a budget.


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## JimnNila143 (Jul 23, 2013)

In the provinces, the typical going rate for an adult helper is 2,500 pesos a month, 3,000 if they are good workers. For underage children it is less, it is important that they do get free meals, especially the underage boys. We had a helper, a teenage girl, who worked for my wife and she did a good job cleaning and maintaining our laundry, however, my wife felt that she did some five finger shopping in our house. The problem that I had was because the fact that my wife has a sari sari store, the helper's mother would get grocery items and wanted to pay later for it, this was my beef. I don't like giving credit, especially when the person has not paid the amount owed to my wife. My policy is no money, no honey, no pay, no play. I still try to convince my wife that the people who do business with us are not friends. Friends are friends, family is family, but in business you have no friends or family.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

*Worker*



Maxx62 said:


> I live in a large compound that has been subdivided into six walled sub-compounds. My wife and I occupy one of the sub-compounds, while three other sub-compounds are occupied by my in-laws. My wife and I don't have a maid or helper, but each of my in-laws have at least a female maid, and one or two helper boys.
> 
> One of my in-laws is getting on in her years, and I suspect that she is starting to get a little senile. She is constantly complaining about financial problems, and I noticed that recently she cut back on the amount and type of food she is feeding her male helpers. In addition, she makes them sleep on cots next to her car, in case anyone tries to steal her gasoline at night. I talked to the old lady's husband, he agreed that the treatment was inhumane, but he simply said, "What can I do, that is her sickness."
> 
> ...


The meals (standard meal actually)and work load sound about right for most that work in my area... You also don't want these guys living inside the house, things will disappear and get re-sold.

One armed neighbor got similar treatment, he looks innocent and is a very hard worker he also can steal with the best of them, he has a cigarette and drinking habit, we fed him very well. We helped the one armed guy in the aftermath of the Typhoon, we needed help with the destruction and clean up, he did a great job but now were missing some high dollar steel cooking pots...they didn't blow away.

These two men can leave anytime they want but it sounds like their okay with the arrangement for now, it's better than the alternative and that's back home and less food, harder work for sure. These guys could be hired from someone else though, that happens too! If they're truly hard workers with skills, they can find jobs, house work wouldn't be considered a skill worth hiring though, not sure what they're doing for the elderly lady.

The elderly lady's troubling behavior would be considered normal and not questioned in the area I live in. In-laws treat workers and family members the same way as well as neighbors, they're really tight with cash, curipots, they complain they don't have money, they'll go through extremes to prove that to you but they do, when they go out to eat at restaurant its a secret, I was shocked to learn wifes sister has a couple restaurants on her weekly schedule, she has two daughters out of college and a business but would finish eating the knuckles on the chicken bones, take home leftovers that had been sitting for hours.


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## esv1226 (Mar 13, 2014)

I agree with all the comments. Poverty is real and we are up close and in the midst of it Why do we want to help? Because by nature we are good samaritans - we do not like to turn a blind eye and, we do feel good about helping. But oftentimes we are disappointed. Let's toughen up. Helping personally and directly isn't for everyone.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Slightly off topic but we have a tract of sugar cane on ****** and at harvest time hire workers. From the start we were told by family to pay the local rate of about 100-120 pesos a day as if you over pay you will upset all the other local growers. Domestic helpers are in a simi;ar position, they love to work for foriegners as they pay too much but it upsets the apple cart with the locals.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

"...Only keep workers if you can take proper care of them- simple truth..."

Amen! That is the truth!


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

I've gotten somewhat accustomed to seeing destitute people in the street, without shedding too many tears (although I have been none to throw handfuls of coins in certain areas as I drive by - been doing it for years), the case involving the two helper boys is different, because they live right here in our compound with us.

I'm not sure, but I heard that they are getting 1,700 Php a month, but it appears that their pay is being withheld to repay a family debt. (Jeez, this wouldn't even be legal in most countries) I agree, the old lady and her husband aren't thinking straight, and I've told them they should be nicer to these two boys, or they could get hungry enough to rob them some night. They seem like decent enough boys, and they don't seem to have any vices, but if you push someone far enough....If you treated someone like that in the west, you'd be thrown in prison. She doesn't even let them wash their clothes at her house, and they are very dirty most of the time.

I think what I'll do is invite them over to my area once in a while, give them some odd jobs, fill them up with food, and give them a few hundred pesos now and then . I can't save everyone in this town, but these boys are being exploited, that's not right, and who knows, maybe in the future they will remember that I was the one fed them, and that may come in handy some day.


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

Sounds like a Great plan Maxx. If you help them through work and pay, they'll be grateful for a lifetime, And might save them from acting on the tyrant they work for now. Human exploitation like that is unforgivable and it amazes me how badly Filipinos can treat each other....should be Better than rest of third world in that regard, but unfortunately is not.


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## JimnNila143 (Jul 23, 2013)

*Helping people*



esv1226 said:


> I agree with all the comments. Poverty is real and we are up close and in the midst of it Why do we want to help? Because by nature we are good samaritans - we do not like to turn a blind eye and, we do feel good about helping. But oftentimes we are disappointed. Let's toughen up. Helping personally and directly isn't for everyone.


One of the things that gave me a start when I first came to the Philippines 7 years ago was the number of kids running around begging for pesos. If one comes up to you and begs for pesos, and you give, you will have 20 of them begging for pesos. The kicker with this is that if an observant police officer sees what you are doing, he will come and arrest you and put you in jail. This because, where you have or not have knowledge of Philippine law, it is illegal to panhandle [beg for money]. The best thing to do is just not make eye contact.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

*Helper*



Maxx62 said:


> "...Only keep workers if you can take proper care of them- simple truth..."
> 
> Amen! That is the truth!


We have a distant in-law that helps us frequently but he doesn't live with us, he fixed our roof and several other things, most won't hire him because he needs to leave frequently to feed his kids, for some odd reason his wife won't do the cooking or dishes, it makes other employers angry when he comes and goes....but the work he completes is double or triple the average of other skilled workers, he can do everything, electricity, masonry, carpenter, misc...

When he can't find jobs and we have nothing for him to do we'll give him rice and sardines or what ever cooked meal we have for the day, he's invited to all parties, if we have extra food during lunch time we give that to him so he can feed his family and get back to work faster.

We can't afford to keep any live in or full time helpers, we used to do all that stuff years ago, maids, ya-ya, oh boy what a mistake-a-thon, many lessons learned :frusty:.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

JimnNila143 said:


> One of the things that gave me a start when I first came to the Philippines 7 years ago was the number of kids running around begging for pesos. If one comes up to you and begs for pesos, and you give, you will have 20 of them begging for pesos. The kicker with this is that if an observant police officer sees what you are doing, he will come and arrest you and put you in jail. This because, where you have or not have knowledge of Philippine law, it is illegal to panhandle [beg for money]. The best thing to do is just not make eye contact.


Sometimes I sit outside our main gate at sunset, and on certain days a bunch of kids come over. They usually line up as I'm sitting in my chair, and I ask them easy questions such as, "What is the name of the house where the President of The Philippines lives?" If they get the answer right, I usually give them five pesos, if they don't know the answer, maybe just give them one. I've been doing this for years and years, and the kids who first started doing this are now in their 30s. Last week a bunch of kids lined up, and a rough looking guy got in line with them. When it was his turn he said "Hi kuya Max, do you remember me?" It took me a minute to remember him, but it turned out he was one of the kids that I used to give money to back in the 1980s, and now some of the kids standing in line are his own children. I asked him how many stars are on the Flag of The Philippines, and he said three. I said don't you mean four, and he said no the big one is the sun. Hmm... not sure if that's correct, but I gave him five Pesos, and everyone had a big laugh.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

*Commendable efforts!*



Maxx62 said:


> Sometimes I sit outside our main gate at sunset, and on certain days a bunch of kids come over. They usually line up as I'm sitting in my chair, and I ask them easy questions such as, "What is the name of the house where the President of The Philippines lives?" If they get the answer right, I usually give them five pesos, if they don't know the answer, maybe just give them one. I've been doing this for years and years, and the kids who first started doing this are now in their 30s. Last week a bunch of kids lined up, and a rough looking guy got in line with them. When it was his turn he said "Hi kuya Max, do you remember me?" It took me a minute to remember him, but it turned out he was one of the kids that I used to give money to back in the 1980s, and now some of the kids standing in line are his own children. I asked him how many stars are on the Flag of The Philippines, and he said three. I said don't you mean four, and he said no the big one is the sun. Hmm... not sure if that's correct, but I gave him five Pesos, and everyone had a big laugh.


Maxx...I must commend you on your gallant efforts to touch the lives of the people around you. Your actions are quite noble in that you are NOT just handing out money but in fact you are making them work for it by having the children answer a few questions about current events or something they should really know about their country...making them "learn" in exchange for a small amount of money will give them pride in what they have received from you! It WAS NOT a handout...it WAS EARNED!

These children will certainly be the better for it, by the way you have interacted in their lives.

Great story...thank you for sharing this with us...I am inspired in how I might approach the locals in my area after I have settled there.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Cebu Citizen said:


> Maxx...I must commend you on your gallant efforts to touch the lives of the people around you. Your actions are quite noble in that you are NOT just handing out money but in fact you are making them work for it by having the children answer a few questions about current events or something they should really know about their country...making them "learn" in exchange for a small amount of money will give them pride in what they have received from you! It WAS NOT a handout...it WAS EARNED!
> 
> These children will certainly be the better for it, by the way you have interacted in their lives.
> 
> Great story...thank you for sharing this with us...I am inspired in how I might approach the locals in my area after I have settled there.


I should also add that when I first started doing this, usually my wife, or one of my in-laws would be sitting there with me, so the locals in the area kinda knew who I was, and that I wasn't a bad guy. Also, it was kind of interesting to see how little these kids knew about their own country. When I was growing up in the US I knew that George Washington was the first president, by the time I was in the first grade. I don't know what the schools are teaching kids over here, but I suspect that the school system has kind of fallen apart during the past thirty years.


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## Druidia (Apr 21, 2014)

Maxx62 said:


> ..."Hi kuya Max, do you remember me?" It took me a minute to remember him, but it turned out he was one of the kids that I used to give money to back in the 1980s, and now some of the kids standing in line are his own children. *I asked him how many stars are on the Flag of The Philippines, and he said three. I said don't you mean four, and he said no the big one is the sun. Hmm... not sure if that's correct*, but I gave him five Pesos, and everyone had a big laugh.


The now-big kid is correct. There are 3 stars on the Phil flag representing the 3 major island groupings - Luzon, Visayas and Mindanao. The large yellow object in the middle is the sun with eight rays to represent the first 8 provinces that fought against Spain.


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## George6020 (Apr 18, 2014)

Most of us foreigners have NEVER seen such wide spread poverty like here in the Philippines. It really is a culture shock, but after a while, we start to understand and accept this culture, though hopefully not to grow callous to the hunger and pain.
When I announced to my family and friends that I was moving to the Philippines, most were supporting, but a few said, "you can't save the world". 
After some successes and some failures at establishing some feeding programs, I agree that we cannot save the world, but we can "make better" the small world around us. Local puroks, barangays are the perfect place to start, for those with the means and heart.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Maxx62 said:


> "...Only keep workers if you can take proper care of them- simple truth..."
> 
> Amen! That is the truth!


One of my favourite truisms is you have to pay people enough so that they can afford to be honest.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

Manitoba said:


> One of my favourite truisms is you have to pay people enough so that they can afford to be honest.


But conditions go against this everywhere.....never understood how bank tellers and armored car guards can be paid only 9-10 bucks an hour. Not taking into account the consequences if they stole of course.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

cvgtpc1 said:


> But conditions go against this everywhere.....never understood how bank tellers and armored car guards can be paid only 9-10 bucks an hour. Not taking into account the consequences if they stole of course.


I agree, I don't understand how an employer (in a western country) can pay someone near minimum wage, when that particular employee is responsible for handling hundreds of thousands in cash? I guess part of the problem stems from the fact that employers know what the market will support, and they are not willing to pay anyone above that level. They will not raise their starting wage, until people stop coming into their office asking asking to fill out an application. (There are simply too many people competing for the same job.)

The case involving the helpers in my compound is a little bit different, as these guys are not even being fed properly, and homeless people here in Cebu probably have a better life than they do. They probably had a better life out in the provinces, but apparently they were sent here to work off a debt.


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## Kavite Kenny (Jul 31, 2014)

It has taken me awhile to really (sort of) understand and accept how little some earn here. 

I offered to pay our maid more.... but then it was explained that it would upset other's in area. The subsequent hiring would require more and more. 

My Sister-in-law explained....everyone has the opportunity to work hard and study to better their position. It is those who are too lazy or stupid to care that are being hired that way. 

Coming from USA, I'm still of the mindset to help those in need... but I guess I see her point.

still...."sort of" ..it's a learning process.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Yesterday my sister-in-law ordered the two helper boys to clean up the unoccupied are of the main compound. We keep some goats over there to keep the brush from getting too high, and since the two helpers don't have any shoes, my wife loaned them each a pair of rubber rain boots to keep their feet clean. After they put on the boots, the boys took turns filling them up with water from our house. I asked my wife why they were putting water into the boots that while they were wearing them. My wife said that the boys put water into their boots because they wanted to stay cool, and because they thought that the boots were like a swimming pool. Wow, just when you thought you've heard everything. Well, I've been watching them work, and I think that the water in their boots is slowing them down by about 50% but they seem to be happy, so I won't say anything.


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## George6020 (Apr 18, 2014)

Maxx62 said:


> Yesterday my sister-in-law ordered the two helper boys to clean up the unoccupied are of the main compound. We keep some goats over there to keep the brush from getting too high, and since the two helpers don't have any shoes, my wife loaned them each a pair of rubber rain boots to keep their feet clean. After they put on the boots, the boys took turns filling them up with water from our house. I asked my wife why they were putting water into the boots that while they were wearing them. My wife said that the boys put water into their boots because they wanted to stay cool, and because they thought that the boots were like a swimming pool. Wow, just when you thought you've heard everything. Well, I've been watching them work, and I think that the water in their boots is slowing them down by about 50% but they seem to be happy, so I won't say anything.


Hmmm....so funny. I probably wouldn't say anything either. Its just another way of thinking that we are exposed to......many times doesn't make much sense.
I'm not sure how their reasoning functions...and probably never will....hehehee.
It amazes me how many workers it takes to transfer dirt/soil from 1 place to another. NO 1 person will take the dirt ALL the way. 1 will dig, 1 wants to put in bags, 1 will put in wheelbarrow, or 2 will share carrying 1 bag. And it still takes forever. 
Another thing they do when transferring dirt/soil. They will shovel and pile it up maybe 1 meter away, then they will shovel it another meter, then another. So it takes moving the dirt 3 times before its 10 feet away. Such a waste of time and energy. 
Digging a hole.............1 guy loosens dirt with a barra, other guy watches. Then the other guy will scoop loose dirt with shovel, while 1st guy watches. I tried to shown them how a shovel works to dig and scoop in 1 motion, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
Relating to the topic, I wanted to pay these laborers extra for their harder than necessary work, but my wife said no........so the wife wins.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

I've been on this forum sinse 2010 I think and these stories and true happenings just get better and better. Keep going guys -- this is good stuff...


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

This is going to be my biggest challenge after I am residing in the Philippines. I love good quality work and work ethics, quality materials, etc. and I am willing to pay extra for it and if someone typically does an outstanding job for me, above and beyond what is typically expected of them, I don't mind giving them a generous tip or bonus after the work has been completed.

HOWEVER...I do understand fully about the delicate local economic balance of things in the Philippines and I DO NOT want to upset the apple cart so to speak...

So I will try very hard to keep this in check and try not to aggravate my neighbors and the area locals by overpaying any hired workers, should I have any from time to time.

Any suggestions from others who have struggled with this same issue will be greatly appreciated. Let me know how you got quality help and/or quality materials or services without openly overpaying according to the local economic standards.


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Cebu Citizen said:


> This is going to be my biggest challenge after I am residing in the Philippines. I love good quality work and work ethics, quality materials, etc. and I am willing to pay extra for it and if someone typically does an outstanding job for me, above and beyond what is typically expected of them, I don't mind giving them a generous tip or bonus after the work has been completed.
> 
> HOWEVER...I do understand fully about the delicate local economic balance of things in the Philippines and I DO NOT want to upset the apple cart so to speak...
> 
> ...


Better to keep it in check,no need to raise the bar. Foreigners raise the bar without thinking.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

I think the reward is more that you retain that person whenever you need something done.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Cebu Citizen said:


> This is going to be my biggest challenge after I am residing in the Philippines. I love good quality work and work ethics, quality materials, etc. and I am willing to pay extra for it and if someone typically does an outstanding job for me, above and beyond what is typically expected of them, I don't mind giving them a generous tip or bonus after the work has been completed.
> 
> HOWEVER...I do understand fully about the delicate local economic balance of things in the Philippines and I DO NOT want to upset the apple cart so to speak...
> 
> ...


I agree, I appreciate people who have a good work ethic, and I don't mind showing my appreciation. Unfortunately, about 80% of the people I've hired since I've been here, seem like they would rather crawl over broken glass, than do an honest day's work. We were able to gradually whittle down our construction crew, and got rid of many of the really bad apples. We didn't really feel like giving the remaining people a raise, but once or twice a week we'd buy them some rotisserie chicken from a road side stand near our house. I think that they appreciated the free food more than extra money, and some of these guys probably would have wasted the money on booze and prostitutes anyway.


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## Miss August (Sep 6, 2014)

Just something to think about...

Since 'you' look at everything from a western view and your logic and deductive reasoning and problem solving skills (should) be light years ahead of the average Filipino. It is easy to end up frustrated in your efforts to 'help and improve' things. This is where most Westerners get angry and go home due to their views of the 'stupid' way things are done in the Philippines.

You might hire a Filipino worker to build a cement wall that you could build in 3 hours and it took him 3 days to do it. What the Westerner sees is a long drawn out process to build a simple wall that should take 3 hours. What a Pinoy thinks is that I am paid 300 pesos a day and I need to feed my family and I can work this wall for 3 days to get 900 pesos to feed my family.


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## Kavite Kenny (Jul 31, 2014)

Hello Miss August,

Thanks for your insight and comments. You are very correct in your assumptions. 

I grew up around the world as a military brat... and later joined US Air Force myself.

I understand the mentality of "milking the job" all over...all over the USA too. Pinoy's don;t have the monopoly on that..haha! 

I also lived and owned a business in Mexico for several years, in my late 20's I didn't have the patience and wisdom which I have now...at least a little more. I fell prey to the mentality of "That's not how it would be done back home!"...I got angry and went "home" 
That said... i have mellowed and have gone to the other end of spectrum..."gone-local" as some would say. Just because I was accidentally born American...doesn't make me any better than Non-Americans... my thought process is not the BEST way...or the only way... Just because I have a USA education doesn't make me superior to anyone else. It simply means...thats the way I KNOW how to do something. Perhaps someone else's way is better. 

I tend to watch now... offer advice if asked or ask my bro-in-law or asawa if the way they do something is normal around here. I will ask questions and perhaps comment that I would do it differently, quite often the contractor will make a note of it, perhaps ask me to show him, not always, but sometimes. 

I think the secret is, maturing enough to let go... mature to the point where patience is more important than being right, when accepting others point of view and style that may contrary to your own...is better than fighting for YOUR way. There are many paths and different vehicles to the top of a mountain. 

My Asawa and I have gone through several contractors...given trial work to some on small jobs. We give specific expectations, if they dont meet them, no foul...here is your day rate...salamat.

We now have a small team of contractors at our beck-and-call. We negotiate a total job price for the labor, rather than a day rate. of course this could ead to hurried and poor workmanship... but again, if they don't satisfy our expectations, they are replaced.

My wife does the majority of the negotiations with me as back up as I can usually estimate job needs...she negotiates the rate for those needs. She scares the vendors in Divisoria! haha... she's tough.

Anyone who tries to expect all work to be done to the standards of "back home" needs to either pay through the wahzoo for it, do the job themselves or pack their bags and leave RP frustrated.


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## vagabond54 (Sep 11, 2014)

Very typical of most 3rd world country philosophy. I might add another insight to it.... You are " all rich Americans," and can afford to pay a much higher fee than the local person. So if I can milk you for extra money, I will.


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## vagabond54 (Sep 11, 2014)

Great insight, Kavite Kenny!
I agree with your life experiences and evolution in thinking/surviving in foreign countries.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

vagabond54 said:


> Very typical of most 3rd world country philosophy. I might add another insight to it.... You are " all rich Americans," and can afford to pay a much higher fee than the local person. So if I can milk you for extra money, I will.


This is precisely why we usually have our wives or girlfriends negotiate pricing on everything from contracts, salaries, to costs of buying items at a local flea market.
A peso or two really makes no difference but in the end things can end up costing much more than they should. Just part of living here in paradise.

*Now, I need to direct this thread back to the original title of the treatment of workers/helpers* :focus:


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## George6020 (Apr 18, 2014)

I prefer having "smart" workers.

I will try my best to teach better methods.....with examples to my workers...........if they learn and attempt the new methods, they are keepers. If they refuse or cannot learn new methods, depending on their attitudes, they are let go.

I don't buy the above concept that all Filipinos are stupid, stubborn, and lazy....always looking to scam. 
I have encountered some like that....and they don't work for me anymore. But I have found lots of smart, energetic, willing to learn new methods with new tools............and those guys I keep, treat them well, with much respect.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Miss August said:


> Just something to think about...
> 
> Since 'you' look at everything from a western view and your logic and deductive reasoning and problem solving skills (should) be light years ahead of the average Filipino. It is easy to end up frustrated in your efforts to 'help and improve' things. This is where most Westerners get angry and go home due to their views of the 'stupid' way things are done in the Philippines.
> 
> You might hire a Filipino worker to build a cement wall that you could build in 3 hours and it took him 3 days to do it. What the Westerner sees is a long drawn out process to build a simple wall that should take 3 hours. What a Pinoy thinks is that I am paid 300 pesos a day and I need to feed my family and I can work this wall for 3 days to get 900 pesos to feed my family.


Miss August makes good valid points that we as westerners are typically looking at things from the western standards that we grew up with. However; I have to believe in my heart that there must be good honest Filipino's with good work ethics and quality standards, (and I am not passing judgment here)...I am only raising the point and asking for feedback on this thread topic because I will be there soon, living and breathing in the Philippines and I am sure I will be faced with this issue. (And I most certainly want to handle it properly with respect and dignity to both myself and the workers I might hire).

The point I wanted to bring to the surface...if the worker is dragging the job out for three days just to make a few more peso's to feed their family, is that not possessing poor work ethics? (Which in itself is a form of dishonesty). Is there no such thing in the Philippines as good work ethics? I have trouble believing that. No matter how poor someone might be, no matter how much someone needs the money even for a good reason such as feeding a family...there still must be some hard working and honest people in the Philippines.

Something like 80% of the Philippine population claims to be God fearing Catholics and Catholics hold honesty and integrity very highly in the Church. How can anyone be God fearing and a devout Christian and follow the teachings of the Bible if they are in fact conducting their lives in this dishonest way?

I have a hard time believing that most poor people would drag out a project completion just for the sake of making a little more money. Perhaps this is true...I don't know...I am just here to learn more about this situation as I plan on building/having my home built there.

What people need to realize, (rich or poor), is that good strong work ethics brings about more future work. If I knew someone were stretching a job like this, I would not want to hire them ever again.

Perhaps the solution here for westerners is to not pay the workers by the day...but rather by the job...no matter how long it takes to do it...one day or three days or three weeks...this is what the pay is for this project from start to completion.

Has anyone tried this approach before?


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## lefties43332 (Oct 21, 2012)

Cebu Citizen said:


> Miss August makes good valid points that we as westerners are typically looking at things from the western standards that we grew up with. However; I have to believe in my heart that there must be good honest Filipino's with good work ethics and quality standards, (and I am not passing judgment here)...I am only raising the point and asking for feedback on this thread topic because I will be there soon, living and breathing in the Philippines and I am sure I will be faced with this issue. (And I most certainly want to handle it properly with respect and dignity to both myself and the workers I might hire).
> 
> The point I wanted to bring to the surface...if the worker is dragging the job out for three days just to make a few more peso's to feed their family, is that not possessing poor work ethics? (Which in itself is a form of dishonesty). Is there no such thing in the Philippines as good work ethics? I have trouble believing that. No matter how poor someone might be, no matter how much someone needs the money even for a good reason such as feeding a family...there still must be some hard working and honest people in the Philippines.
> 
> ...


Too deep,,,time will show you the way.


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## vagabond54 (Sep 11, 2014)

Cebu Citizen,
So many "religious" or "professed Christians" do not really follow the way of God/Jesus. In church, they are very devout, once outside, they will be just as deceitful and the unbeliever many times. I think it is probably referred to as "free will or human nature." So don't bother using THAT as a reason to trust someone. 
I have been living in 3rd world countries for over 4 years now, and find that many people will do whatever they can to make some extra money. There is a reputable contractor working in the building I am living in, but he managed to get over 1 million pesos from about 4 people here, then disappeared with only completing 1/4 or less of the work. The people employing him, made a HUGE mistake. They kept paying him when he asked for money, but had clearly not completed the work much of the contracted work. Lesson to learn: Have a contract that specifically states WHEN and HOW MUCH money will be paid at the various COMPLETION STAGES. This is fair to all. It is the employer's responsibility to keep on top of the progress of the job. If this cannot be done, then it is best to buy a completed house/apt so no risk is involved. I know of 2 Brazilians fighting with broken beer bottles over 50 cents for "watching over" a car parked along the street! Life, and honesty are not the highest priority in 3rd world countries. SURVIVAL IS! Keep in mind, if you give people a chance to take advantage of you, often they will. You doing YOUR job will help them stay/be a better person. Taking someone to court can take up to 1 year. So best be preemptive, and have everything written carefully. I have been dealing with a fellow Ex-Vet and USA citizen who has broken our rental contract. He is quick to sue, and threaten anyone who crosses him. He is a "classic example of 'the Ugly American.' " So local people are NOT the only ones you need to be wary of in foreign countries. People often think laws do not apply to themselves when living in a foreign country. I have only been in the Philippines for 10 months, but have dealt with pickpockets, shady lawyers, questionable doctors, dentists who "find 12 cavities", when other dentists see none, even with x-rays. Real Estate agents who claim to be able to get financing, but when I checked at local banks, found out it was not possible in my situation. People will do and say many things to part a careless (fool?) from their money. BUT...I also have met several really good people in the Philippines. Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Thailand, Malaysia or the Philippines, it is all a crap shoot. You take your best shot, and hope you find the life you are looking for. Good luck!


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Miss August said:


> Just something to think about...
> 
> Since 'you' look at everything from a western view and your logic and deductive reasoning and problem solving skills (should) be light years ahead of the average Filipino. It is easy to end up frustrated in your efforts to 'help and improve' things. This is where most Westerners get angry and go home due to their views of the 'stupid' way things are done in the Philippines.
> 
> You might hire a Filipino worker to build a cement wall that you could build in 3 hours and it took him 3 days to do it. What the Westerner sees is a long drawn out process to build a simple wall that should take 3 hours. What a Pinoy thinks is that I am paid 300 pesos a day and I need to feed my family and I can work this wall for 3 days to get 900 pesos to feed my family.


August, I wouldn't say that my logic or reasoning skills are necessarily light years ahead of the average Filipino, but I do agree that hiring people can be a very frustrating experience for a foreigner to deal with. These days if I have to hire someone, I usually pay them by the job rather than paying them by the day. Instead of paying them 900 Php for three days of work, I will pay them 900 Php (50% at start - 50% upon completion). I think this arraignment is better for both parties, as they get the same amount of money, they are able to finish my job sooner, and then they can go out looking for other work.

Yes, I understand the terrible bind that many of these guys face in feeding their family, but I have a hard time understanding the logic behind working slowly to make a job last longer. If I gain a reputation as someone who works slowly to get more money, then who will be willing to hire me in the future? When I was growing in the states, I was taught that you should try to take pride in your work. Even if you don't take pride in your work, eventually, someday, you might get a job that you wish to do well at. However, if you've had bad work habits at all of your previous jobs, it is going to be very difficult to suddenly learn good work habits overnight, in order to keep the job that you do like. Better to develop good work habits early, and to keep them with you throughout your working life. If someone suddenly gave these guys a job at a factory in the US, I'm sure a lot of them couldn't make it.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

vagabond54 said:


> Cebu Citizen,
> So many "religious" or "professed Christians" do not really follow the way of God/Jesus. In church, they are very devout, once outside, they will be just as deceitful and the unbeliever many times. I think it is probably referred to as "free will or human nature." So don't bother using THAT as a reason to trust someone.
> I have been living in 3rd world countries for over 4 years now, and find that many people will do whatever they can to make some extra money. There is a reputable contractor working in the building I am living in, but he managed to get over 1 million pesos from about 4 people here, then disappeared with only completing 1/4 or less of the work. The people employing him, made a HUGE mistake. They kept paying him when he asked for money, but had clearly not completed the work much of the contracted work. Lesson to learn: Have a contract that specifically states WHEN and HOW MUCH money will be paid at the various COMPLETION STAGES. This is fair to all. It is the employer's responsibility to keep on top of the progress of the job. If this cannot be done, then it is best to buy a completed house/apt so no risk is involved. I know of 2 Brazilians fighting with broken beer bottles over 50 cents for "watching over" a car parked along the street! Life, and honesty are not the highest priority in 3rd world countries. SURVIVAL IS! Keep in mind, if you give people a chance to take advantage of you, often they will. You doing YOUR job will help them stay/be a better person. Taking someone to court can take up to 1 year. So best be preemptive, and have everything written carefully. I have been dealing with a fellow Ex-Vet and USA citizen who has broken our rental contract. He is quick to sue, and threaten anyone who crosses him. He is a "classic example of 'the Ugly American.' " So local people are NOT the only ones you need to be wary of in foreign countries. People often think laws do not apply to themselves when living in a foreign country. I have only been in the Philippines for 10 months, but have dealt with pickpockets, shady lawyers, questionable doctors, dentists who "find 12 cavities", when other dentists see none, even with x-rays. Real Estate agents who claim to be able to get financing, but when I checked at local banks, found out it was not possible in my situation. People will do and say many things to part a careless (fool?) from their money. BUT...I also have met several really good people in the Philippines. Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Thailand, Malaysia or the Philippines, it is all a crap shoot. You take your best shot, and hope you find the life you are looking for. Good luck!


Having a written contract isn't a bad idea, and I think that many con artists will run away when you ask them to sign such an agreement. However, as you said, it can take over a year to go to court, and the legal system may not be of much use when it comes to enforcing an agreement between you, and a local. I know that it may sound like a bit of an oversimplification, but I think that one of the best ways to prevent these types of problems is to lean how to recognize a shark before it bites you. Not always easy. (Con artists never want you to know where they live. They never want to talk about how long they've been working in a particular industry, and they want to talk about giving you a bank reference.)


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Just When You Thought It Was Safe To Go In The Water*



Maxx62 said:


> I know that it may sound like a bit of an oversimplification, but I think that one of the best ways to prevent these types of problems is to lean how to recognize a shark before it bites you. Not always easy. (Con artists never want you to know where they live.


This truly is the best way to hire help or even have a motorcycle repaired. Get references from locals on the individual. I have found that the best way to get the right people for the {any} job is to ask my wife to locate the workers/mechanic, or anyone else that is needed.
The end results are always better and makes for a much nicer day as well as saves me ovrdosing on blood pressure meds. Hahaha  op2:


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## John1850 (Oct 31, 2014)

Great insight.


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## Bouraq (Sep 8, 2012)

> Yes there are very strict and extensive laws regarding the pay and conditions for helpers, minimum wage, health care, sss, working hours etc. All religiously enforced in the normal Philippine way. Unless you are a kano of course then a lot more scrutiny is applied.


The further you get from major city centers the less attention is paid to such regulations. The underlying thought of employees in the provinces is that all that matters is a job of sorts, and employers tend the think they can please themselves how they treat their staff (which is usually the case). Workers do not like SSS as they are supposed to contribute also, working hours are usually flexible but best agreed from day one. The limited health care provided by Philhealth is generally quite affordable but insufficient as a stand alone contingency, most reasonable employers will "help out" with medical costs within reason. If you are inclined to help in this way keep a firm grip on the process and you be the one who chooses the doctor/clinic/hospital etc. and deals with the administration (you may need to intervene with the medical staff also). If you look on everybody as a potential rip-off merchant then you will simply be protecting your own interests. Interesting 'tradition' here is somebody being admitted to hospital and then not being able to pay any or a part of their bill is frequently 'held' in the hospital i.e. not discharged until suitable arrangements are established (with the clock still running of course). There are some very questionable practices in this neck of the woods.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Cebu Citizen said:


> Phil_Expat...a very valiant effort to help those around you and I am the same way! I just can't seem to walk away when I know I have the means to help someone, HOWEVER; with that being said, you might want to change the way you are helping the lady sleeping on the street.
> 
> Simply sticking some money into her bag may not be helping her at all. Many times, I have seen street urchins going through other peoples personal belongings while they are asleep and stealing anything of value.
> 
> ...


The practice of holding someone in lieu of payment for a hospital is illegal and is one law that is enforced now. Problem is that many locals don't know this and being as passive as they are, find themselves taken advantage of..


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## colemanlee (Nov 17, 2014)

Maxx62;5214762[B said:


> _]Having a written contract isn't a bad idea, and I think that many con artists will run away when you ask them to sign such an agreement. _[/B] However, as you said, it can take over a year to go to court, and the legal system may not be of much use when it comes to enforcing an agreement between you, and a local. I know that it may sound like a bit of an oversimplification, but I think that one of the best ways to prevent these types of problems is to lean how to recognize a shark before it bites you. Not always easy. (Con artists never want you to know where they live. They never want to talk about how long they've been working in a particular industry, and they want to talk about giving you a bank reference.)


I have found, that in hiring a maid, a yaya or even a contractor, I make out a contract ( or my wife does) and take them and the contract to the brngy Capt.
all partys sign, in the end it may not be worth the paper its written on, but it does tell the person your hiring your serious. And because most Filipinos are very afraid of "Officials" it usually works. The reason my wife makes it out is so its written in the local language and later they cant say they did not understand.


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## esv1226 (Mar 13, 2014)

We do not have a maid nor helper. We like our space and we do not like anyone else in the house. Coming home from a vacation and having a little work done in the backroom, made the house dirty, dusty, etc. I felt I needed help, so I got it cleaned - from ceiling to floor - two men and 2 ladies, got the job done in less than 3 hours for PhP 600. I do the same thing when I need help with the yard. I'm happy with the results, I've got no problems associated with a live -in helper and less expensive than a maid.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

*Live in helpers*



esv1226 said:


> We do not have a maid nor helper. We like our space and we do not like anyone else in the house. Coming home from a vacation and having a little work done in the backroom, made the house dirty, dusty, etc. I felt I needed help, so I got it cleaned - from ceiling to floor - two men and 2 ladies, got the job done in less than 3 hours for PhP 600. I do the same thing when I need help with the yard. I'm happy with the results, I've got no problems associated with a live -in helper and less expensive than a maid.


I'm glad you brought that up, we did have an elderly man and his son live with us and they didn't get a wage but performed all the maintenance, built up our rock garden, moat around the house (floods here badly), it was awesome, no complaints on this duo.


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