# Crime in Cape Town



## Anne-Marie

Hi,

I'm moving to Cape Town this weekend. I'm really excited about the whole thing but one of my colleagues here in London is a Capetonian and has really managed to worry me.

I'm moving to an apartment into the city centre for the next three months, and he's mentioned to me the city centre is very unsafe and I need to be extremely careful and virtually barricade myself in at night. As a woman on my own I'm beginning to wonder if I've made a serious mistake. Is the city centre that bad? And am I losing my freedom moving to a big crime ridden city? 

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Stravinsky

Anne-Marie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm moving to Cape Town this weekend. I'm really excited about the whole thing but one of my colleagues here in London is a Capetonian and has really managed to worry me.
> 
> I'm moving to an apartment into the city centre for the next three months, and he's mentioned to me the city centre is very unsafe and I need to be extremely careful and virtually barricade myself in at night. As a woman on my own I'm beginning to wonder if I've made a serious mistake. Is the city centre that bad? And am I losing my freedom moving to a big crime ridden city?
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.


I asked the same sort of question on another thread but no one answered. the reason I asked is because on other forums I have seen people warning of high crime rates, and I wondered if it was just a group of embittered ex pats moaning.

I hope you get some guidance ... although if you google crime in South Africa you can find a lot
BBC News | TALKING POINT | Have you experienced crime in South Africa?


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## synthia

There are several threads here about crime in South African and in Capetown. What I've noticed is that people say it's not bad, but they follow up with caveats about going out at night. Every time I read that I wonder if the people posting really think that a place where going out at night is dangerous is the norm in the rest of the world.


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## RIKKA

We are moving to CT in January. I have been to CT 4 times in the last year, and i never felt the CBD dangerious. I am taking my wife and daugher next week to go house shopping and look at schools. I have found expat south africans very down on their country. Not sure why. If I may be so bold where did/are you moving in CT.


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## RSA_expat_usa

As a woman living in SA you would have to be extra careful for your safety. Remember-the police will not help or respond quick if you need help, so you will have to take precautions on where you live. 

I would suggest areas like Sea Point, Camps Bay, Green Bay in Cape Town. It's on the city fringes, and a little more secure. Not to scare you, but the reality is when you select the apartment, make sure it is fully secured, and with 24 hours security, and be careful when going out at night.


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## BBJ

*Just think a lot*

You will love Cape Town is stunning. But YES be careful; here are the crime stats:

548,847 assault 2nd in the world
393,959 burglaries 4th in the world
31,918 Murder with firearm 1st in the world
21,553 Murder with other instrument 1st in world
3,017 Kidnap 2nd in World
52,425 Rape 2nd in World (latest figures suggest only 5%-10% rape reported, therefore could be 500,000 to a 1,000,000 a year, there's about 24 million women in SA, so thats the entire female population in 24 years. Absolute animals, don't care what colour, creed or race they are. I was there recently when they started burning foreigners alive in the local township because they owned a shop and they were from another part of Africa. 

But to be honest, that the story of most of Africa, machetes, violence, guns, theft, murder and rape. The 5% ruin it for the 95% that are hard working normal people like you and I, It's such a shame. I have lived there over 16 years in four different African countries, but know Cape Town inside out.


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## zambezi.king

I don't come from Cape Town, have only been there twice, was there for a conference last October, don't know the place well at all. 

Cape Town is one of the safer cities I hear in South Africa but it is still has its dangers. Think of all the things that could happen to you in you local large cites where-ever you are now... then multiply those chances a few times. Cape Town CBD (actual CBD)is, like any city deserted at night so walking through there is probably not a good idea. 3-4 blocks away there are apartments, houses etc and these areas I here are a lot safer but you still have to be safety orientated.

I stayed in an area called "De Waterkant"... guest houses, trendy restuarants, bars etc. Very nice area with security guards on most corners keeping an eye on the streets. I cannot talk about the rest of the city as I was only there for 3 days.

As to the post earlier from some-one who could not understand why South Afrrican expats are so down on South Africa........ the reason is the place has gone from the best place to live in the world to one of the worst!! For holidays it can be the best especially for those who never saw how great it was and who don't have to deal with the stress of the crime, general degredation, corruption, inefficiency, etc... Take your current country of residence, now make it 5-10 worse then see if you would also not complain. The "New South Africa" after 1994 had such potential, a country that could have really kept up the standards but alas it went the african way like all the rest of the countries before it. Those in power are sooooo corrupt they have squandered ANY chance of stemming the slide into just another banana republic.

Have a super day!


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## mman

BBJ said:


> You will love Cape Town is stunning. But YES be careful; here are the crime stats:
> 
> 548,847 assault 2nd in the world
> 393,959 burglaries 4th in the world
> 31,918 Murder with firearm 1st in the world
> 21,553 Murder with other instrument 1st in world
> 3,017 Kidnap 2nd in World
> 52,425 Rape 2nd in World (latest figures suggest only 5%-10% rape reported, therefore could be 500,000 to a 1,000,000 a year, there's about 24 million women in SA, so thats the entire female population in 24 years. Absolute animals, don't care what colour, creed or race they are. I was there recently when they started burning foreigners alive in the local township because they owned a shop and they were from another part of Africa.
> 
> But to be honest, that the story of most of Africa, machetes, violence, guns, theft, murder and rape. The 5% ruin it for the 95% that are hard working normal people like you and I, It's such a shame. I have lived there over 16 years in four different African countries, but know Cape Town inside out.


Where are these facts from?


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## BBJ

*Here it is, remember this is AFTER the SA authorities have corrupted the true figures*

NationMaster - South African Crime statistics


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## mman

Murders - 21,553
Murders with firearms - 31,918

I dont trust that site. Many figures are from 2002 and they still have a figure for the death penalty which was abolished ages ago!


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## BBJ

*Stats.*

I dont trust that site. Many figures are from 2002 and they still have a figure for the death penalty which was abolished ages ago![/QUOTE]

No if you read the quote it tells you of the abolition date and when the last person was executed, it then quotes the 2007 Tier watch list, so the figures are for 2007 - 2008 after ANC have massaged them of course. But in a way you are right I don't trust them too, I would estimate about 500,000 Rape at least. If the figures for robbery were ever truly reported it would exceed the country's Gross Domestic Product.


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## Daxk

How about the official SA Police Services Crime stats by category.

Crime Statistics | Per Category

if you do a search you can get the categories broken down according to area which shoots thsoe who say it only happens in bad areas in the foot.


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## BBJ

*This is whats going on*

I have just read this on another site, I know its true because of what i've seen with my own eyes. You know I think there is ONLY one way to turn SA around, and that to shame them into doing something. Isn't it strange that whole world got behind the ANC to stop apartheid, only to watch the ANC promote "one settler - one bullet" and a president that is applauded for signing "bring me my machine gun". Imagine applauding Obama for singing "lets push the button". Take a read of this, I could tell you personal stories of whats happened to people I know, but its just too sick to write.

One seldom hears about South Africa today in the mass media. The reason is that South Africa is rapidly descending into crime, disease, filth, and savagery. 

Since the ANC takeover in 1994, 1,368 White farmers have been murdered in farm invasions and attacks that number in the multiple thousands. More than half of the White farmers have given up and left their farms permanently, contributing to the region's looming famine. South African farmers now suffer the highest murder rate in the world -- 274 per 100,000. In a study commissioned by a leading South African bank, Nedbank, it was revealed that the 98.6% Black attackers are "'deliberately targeting specific homesteads to kill the [White] Afrikaner victims': robbery was not the prime motivation, in fact in 85% of last year's farm attacks, nothing had been 'robbed.'" 

In other words, killing the White man, raping and killing the White woman, raping and killing the White child are the real motivations. And yet this is not an issue in the international arena. 

Let me give you a few examples: 

On June 15th of this year, sugar farmer Robert Dent and his wife Allison, both 59, were killed in front of their twelve-year-old son Nicholas Dent. A Black invader entered the Dent home between two and three AM that Saturday morning, armed with a military-style rifle. He bludgeoned the unarmed couple, who were surprised in their sleep, and then, in the presence of their son, shot them to death at point-blank range in the farmhouse bathroom. The terrified Nicholas was then forced to drive the killer in his parents' car about three miles away, where both killer and child escaped. 

In August, a farmer's wife was attacked in a firebombing, and Johan Viljoen, a Zevenfontein cheese farmer, was torched to death along with one of his workers. Christo Olivier and Jan Kempdorp of Vryburg were tortured to death and then buried in a shallow grave. The two Blacks who were arrested for this crime were granted bail. On the 7th, the headless torso of what police reports call an "ethnic-European male" was found on Mpumalanga farm. And Johannes Maree, 62, of Randfontein, was found bludgeoned to death on August 1st. 

In June and July, Johan Steyn, 65, was shot dead in the Cullinan area; smallholder Roy Murley was tortured to death; Johannes Lake and Johnny Scheepers were shot to death; dairy farmer George Siemens, 62, was killed; and Cheryl van Houten, 51, was hacked to death. 

In April and May, Ben Vorster, 67, was murdered by an armed Black gang; Andre Pienaar, 56, was shot dead; Mona Sawyer, 78, served food to a Black caller at her home in Magaliesberg and was then stabbed to death; Rita Mans, a 31-year-old farmer's wife was shot to death in Ottosdal; 70-year-old Iris du Preez was murdered on her small farm; Dickson Pillay, 36, and his brother Sandy Pillay of Glendale Farm homestead were burned to death when Blacks torched their farm. 

In the first three months of this year, more than 30 farm murders occurred, including the killing of classical musician Felicity Gale, 58, of Port Jackson -- her husband, Rodney, 67, survived the attack; Marius and Lillian Delport, 50 and 54, of a smallholding near De Deur were shot and nothing was stolen; Rudi Schmidt, 51, of a farm near Pontdrift was stabbed to death; 21-year-old Catherine Watkins of Potchefstroom was found with her windpipe torn out; Estelle Burger, 27, a farmers wife, was kidnapped and then shot; John de Lange, 66, a smallholder in Mount Pleasant was shot to death, his wife, Evelin de Lange, 60, was raped and garroted; and Arthur Smith, 63, and his wife Isobel, were found with their throats slit and their bodies severely beaten on their farm in Sundra. 

Unlike Zimbabwe, the government in South Africa does not have an officially-announced policy of supporting these farm invasions and massacres. But they do have a policy of looking the other way and doing next to nothing about it, a policy which encourages Black violence against Whites. Their attitude is perhaps best expressed by Peter Mokaba, until recently South Africa's Deputy Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, who whined recently that "The high crime rate is seriously affecting tourism and an alternative image of South Africa needed to be promoted. We want to encourage people to come here and see that crime does not dominate." Really? What Mr. Mokaba did not tell you was that he himself is famous for the slogans he invented and uttered again and again when he was a leader in the ANC/Communist war against the White government of South Africa: "Kill the Boer! Kill the farmer!" and "One settler, one bullet." 

Kill the Boer, kill the farmer. And it is to such a government that White farmers must appeal for protection. 

The murders I've been describing here are just the farm murders. The murder rate in the cities is even higher, for Johannesburg alone it is 500 per month. Many of the victims are White, and the attackers Black and racially motivated, a fact that is never mentioned in the media. 

And South Africa is also the rape capital of the world. A woman is reported raped every 23 seconds in South Africa. A small child is reported raped every thirty minutes. And remember, these are the reported and admitted rapes. 

On May 24, 2000, the beaten, battered and nearly frozen body of a young Polish woman was found, clad only in a soaked t-shirt, along the road to South Africa's Sterkfontein Dam. Her body was so cold it was actually blue. Her hair was wet and she was covered with bruises, open wounds, deep scratches, and mud. She was curled in a fetal position. She was still alive. To students of rape in South Africa she was another digit in the statistics. To Americans and Europeans who get their news from the major media, she didn't even exist. She was a 27-year-old newlywed on her honeymoon, a honeymoon that ended when three Blacks murdered her husband in front of her eyes and then brutally raped her, beat her, attempted to kill her and left her for dead. The bruise marks around her neck indicated that her rapists had tried to strangle her. At the treatment center she was immediately given AZT by Polish Consulate authorities (treatment refused her by the South African government) in the hope that it would prevent the transfer of HIV, since two of her three attackers tested positive for the virus. She testified that after her attackers murdered her husband, they forced her in the trunk of their car, and went to a secluded spot where each of the Blacks raped her in turn. They then attempted to drown her by stamping their feet on her head in an attempt to keep her head underwater. The woman has returned to her native Poland and refuses to set foot in South Africa again, even to testify. 

As reported by investigator Jack Galt, on November 17th of the same year, a 14-year-old White girl was cruelly raped by a gang of five blacks in her home in Pretoria. According to her counselors, she has been traumatized for the rest of her life. Spokesmen for the White Afrikaner community, who you will not hear on CBS, NBC, or Fox News, state that this attack was a deliberate attempt to terrorize Whites. 

Five heavily-armed Blacks invaded the home, and proceeded to tie up the girl's mother, father, six-year-old sister and ten-year-old brother with barbed wire in the living room. They then grabbed the 14-year-old girl and took her to the bathroom, where they brutally gang-raped her, each of the five Blacks in turn, with the family listening nearby, helpless. Then the Blacks returned to the living room where they beat and kicked the White father in the face while he was still tied up, ransacked the home, and fled in the family's car. 

South African mother Ame Brown of Elliot in the Eastern Cape recently stated: "On the 8th of October, 1998 my two children and I were overpowered by four Black men. We were robbed of everything, and before leaving the men took turns raping me in front of my two boys aged 8 and 12. They forced my boys to watch. I have since then been tested for HIV of which my tests at five months showed positive. It has not been easy coping with being raped and having HIV. But I have a fantastic husband who has stood by me through all my depression and down days and all my sleepless nights. He has been my backbone and tower of strength." 

The rape situation is so bad in South Africa -- the worst in the world -- that British and American doctors are now advising female travelers to carry anti-AIDS drugs in their bags because of the high risk of infection from HIV-carrying rapists there. 

The mayor of Cape Town, William Bantom, was recently discovered to be enjoying his huge personal collection of child pornography in his office while on the job. And he wasn't ousted as mayor. Perhaps the Church will help them? Bantom is also a noted clergyman, known for his liberal views on "human rights," "democracy," and "equality.


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## frank sommes

As cities in SA go, Cape Town is one of the safer ones at night. There are some people who stay in the actual city and not in the suburbs, which is rare. It is, however, not particularly safe if you compare it to some Western cities. You may get burglaries if you don't have a proper house alarm, and you may get mugged/ pickpocketed if you walk in the streets by yourself. It isn't terribly unsafe or the wild west, but you do need to be aware of certain places, and don't walk by yourself at night.


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## BBJ

Yes, I suppose your'e right, if you feel that in a city of less than 3.5m people 7 murders and about 30 - 50 rape per DAY, are acceptable. 

I'm SAD SAD SAD that I had to leave Cape Town, but after losing three friends (two shot) and watching the animals set light to Somalian and Zim shopkeepers in the Cape townships(and laugh why they burned), you're left with no option.

Don't go out at night, Lock all your car doors on every single trip, alarm your house, electric fences are a requirement, private security company and armed alarm response is a MUST in Cape Town as the police do F*** all, lock everything, keep attack dogs if you can, a gun is good if you know how to use one. Never park in a dark street. If you are female never drive alone through 50% of the city, and never at night. Sorry man, its just a joke in Cape Town. You simply cannot live in Cape Town with a young family and truly and honestly say "I feel safe for me, my wife and daughter"


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## arnaud

BBJ said:


> Yes, I suppose your'e right, if you feel that in a city of less than 3.5m people 7 murders and about 30 - 50 rape per DAY, are acceptable.
> 
> I'm SAD SAD SAD that I had to leave Cape Town, but after losing three friends (two shot) and watching the animals set light to Somalian and Zim shopkeepers in the Cape townships(and laugh why they burned), you're left with no option.
> 
> Don't go out at night, Lock all your car doors on every single trip, alarm your house, electric fences are a requirement, private security company and armed alarm response is a MUST in Cape Town as the police do F*** all, lock everything, keep attack dogs if you can, a gun is good if you know how to use one. Never park in a dark street. If you are female never drive alone through 50% of the city, and never at night. Sorry man, its just a joke in Cape Town. You simply cannot live in Cape Town with a young family and truly and honestly say "I feel safe for me, my wife and daughter"


Do you live in Khayelitsha to see those poor somali shopkeeper ? I also experienced lot of crimes in London (East Part) but I won't compare NewHam to Kingston upon Thames, for instance


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## BBJ

*Newham*

Really strange you should mention Newham, I was bought up in East Ham so I know the area very well. Yes, most of East London has become a bit of a cesspit unfortunately, although some parts are pulling themselves out. But you really cannot compare the statistics 7 murders and 40 Rape A DAY for 3,500,000 people, that is way over the top, and doesn't even match Durban and Joez, most of the time SA has the highest crime rate for a country that isn't actually at war, and for quite a few times in the last few years WORSE than Iraq! Take a look at the Stats. Please don't misunderstand me... I think it is the most beautiful place in the world, but something has to be done about the crime, whats the point of having all that beauty if your going to get shot or raped?


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## Halo

arnaud said:


> Do you live in Khayelitsha to see those poor somali shopkeeper ? I also experienced lot of crimes in London (East Part) but I won't compare NewHam to Kingston upon Thames, for instance


There is crime and there is CRIME..... I live in the east end for a few years and its nothing like SA. PS: Please remember that the east end of late is tainted by all sorts which changes the dynamic makeup of a place. Perhaps South Africans should stop moving north and fix the mess down south..... Arnaud (you probably had a 2 year working visa and had to come back), please fix the mess and keep us posted.


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## Weebie

Been to Cape many times. Put it this way I would be more Careful in some Australian cities in the Centre like Melbourne or Perth.


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## Halo

Weebie said:


> Been to Cape many times. Put it this way I would be more Careful in some Australian cities in the Centre like Melbourne or Perth.


You have got to be kidding..... I feel you just don't understand the dynamics.


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## mano1438

Hi Anne Marie,

Although I am Spanish and have now been living in Spain for the past almost 7 years, I have lived most of my life in South Africa, mainly Cape Town, personally the loveliest city in the world!!

I have been back there about 4 years ago and will soon be returning permanently, I do know Cape Town very well and can say that there is crime in Cape Town, the same as there is in any other big city in the world.

I would recommend that you rather live in a suburb such as Table View which I like, but there are many others too....I would not advise the city centre and least of all for a single lady, the are many other options and places for you to live and still be close to your work, which I imagine may be in the city, therefore the reason for you to want to live there, Muille Point is also close, basically next to the city.

I have been around to many countries and can assure you that crime is everywhere, I have lived for 40 years in South Africa and have had my car twice broken into due to my own negligence and on 2 occasions I had my mobile phone stolen, agian due to my own negligence, so as you can see it also depends where you go out and about.

If you would like more info, you can contact me and I can give you a couple of contacts there that will guide you around when you are there.

I will soon be there myself and this time will stay there for good, I just love the country and the people!!

Mano

PS: You or anyone seeking more info on Cape Town can contact me on : I will be more than happy to assist.




Anne-Marie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm moving to Cape Town this weekend. I'm really excited about the whole thing but one of my colleagues here in London is a Capetonian and has really managed to worry me.
> 
> I'm moving to an apartment into the city centre for the next three months, and he's mentioned to me the city centre is very unsafe and I need to be extremely careful and virtually barricade myself in at night. As a woman on my own I'm beginning to wonder if I've made a serious mistake. Is the city centre that bad? And am I losing my freedom moving to a big crime ridden city?
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## arbie

I have lived in CT for 10 years and have 2 kids of 23,21 who go to CT central (Long Street, Kloof Street etc) at night to the clubs and so far my son was 'asked to hand over' his cell only whilst walking alone. However when in a group or using a car, it is not too bad as long as you stay in the crowd. Ther are things like 'safe cabs' too. I also have to do with volunteers, usually girls, who have lived in Green Point for 3 to 6 months and used the mini bus taxis during the day without repercussions, travelling between Athlone and City daily. Consider this - a friend's son was mugged in London, in broad daylight within the first week of his arrival there. Just be careful who you are with and don't look lost, it's all in the body language. Hope you have a wonderful time here.


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## Halo

arbie said:


> I have lived in CT for 10 years and have 2 kids of 23,21 who go to CT central (Long Street, Kloof Street etc) at night to the clubs and so far my son was 'asked to hand over' his cell only whilst walking alone. However when in a group or using a car, it is not too bad as long as you stay in the crowd. Ther are things like 'safe cabs' too. I also have to do with volunteers, usually girls, who have lived in Green Point for 3 to 6 months and used the mini bus taxis during the day without repercussions, travelling between Athlone and City daily. Consider this - a friend's son was mugged in London, in broad daylight within the first week of his arrival there. Just be careful who you are with and don't look lost, it's all in the body language. Hope you have a wonderful time here.


This is anecdotal..... The evidence does not support the "crime happened everywhere argument"


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## clauter

If you stick to the rules that apply everywhere in the world, it is not more dangerous than anywhere else. Keep your eyes open, listen to warnings from locals, do not go to areas you do not know at night etc. This help help and you can enjoy an awesome Cape Town. I am living here since 4 years had never problems, but I am aware that it can happen anytime.


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## Halo

Once again.... Anecdotal.


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## Tristan17

Anne-Marie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm moving to Cape Town this weekend. I'm really excited about the whole thing but one of my colleagues here in London is a Capetonian and has really managed to worry me.
> 
> I'm moving to an apartment into the city centre for the next three months, and he's mentioned to me the city centre is very unsafe and I need to be extremely careful and virtually barricade myself in at night. As a woman on my own I'm beginning to wonder if I've made a serious mistake. Is the city centre that bad? And am I losing my freedom moving to a big crime ridden city?
> 
> Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.


Hi Anne-Marie. Now that you're in beutiful Cape Town I'd love to hear how much your experience matches that of some of the rather ridicuous quakers on here. 

If you allow many South Africans of a certain generation (who are nostalgic for the days of Apartheid) the time they would paint a picture of South Africa much like this. 
*
Diary of a white South African if he thought a foriegner was reading it.

6:00 am : Awoken again by the sounds of gun shots and screams of rape. Take a quick walk around the house. Kids are still alive. Temporary.

6 30 am : Dig out some old cans of baked beans from the rations pantry. Hardly an appropriate meal for a man on death row. And as a white South African who plans to go out today to go to work , one might as well be walking the green mile.

7 : am : Begin the pointless task of taking a shower. I'll soon be covered in blood and bits of stranger’s brains anyway. As always when showering I chiefly think about Jacob Zuma. Did you know Africans think showering and beetroot can cure aids ?

I get out and put on my clothes, starting with my diapers. I'll doubtless ***** myself sometime during the day on one of the many life threatening encounters I'll have. I put on my camouflaged pants and bullet proof vest and tuck in my pistol.

7 30am : Start the long arduous task of unlocking the steel door. Lift the beams, unpadlock the chains, pull out the bolts, punch in a code, turn the dials ....and take a deep breath. slowly push the door open with the rifle of the shot gun. Nobody in plain site. They must be preparing an ambush.

7 31 am : I give the orders to my neighbor and car pool friend on the walkie talkie. In unison with a "go ! go ! go !" we raid our lawns like a blitzkrieg diving first behind our strategically placed sandbags. We let out a few rounds at any bushes before getting into the car.

"Where's your wife ?" I ask him.

"She took a particular bad raping last night, she's calling in sick. I hope she doesn't have aids. Do you know Thabo Mbeki thinks aids can be cured with garlic?" He tells me.

"I sure do, did she take a shower?"

We laugh. Ah, the strange but rare and fleeting sensation of laughter. I'd almost forgotten I was capable of it.

"How're the kids? " I ask him.

"Little Timmy took a bullet , but the few we have left are all still alive. Freakish luck. "

"Yes, I say, mine are alive too. It's been a good week. A few cousins hacked to death with machetes, but nothing that would make the papers."

Our chit chat is interrupted by the familiar whistle of mortars coming in. We speed off.

7 47 : Arrive at work attracting hardly any gun fire or driving over anyone whose fallen in the streets because of aids. Did you know, 2 out of every 1 South Africans has contracted aids at least 5 times? We make it into the office.

8 am : Role call. The boss comes in to see who has made it to work alive. We've lost a secretary but not one with big tits, so there's all round relief.

8 30 : The electricity comes on for a brief few minutes. The boss runs out excitedly ringing his bell.."Quickly he says !!! To the computers while we have the chance !!!" ...After a few moments we recover from the shock of having electricity we rush down to the fireman poles and slide down to the computer room. We quickly finish our work (there's not much to do since the south African economy has entirely collapsed ) so we use this precious time to go on youtube and spread the negative truth about South Africa on any videos we can find. I find one of a tourist who thinks they had a nice time in South Africa but quickly correct them and warn anyone from coming lest they want to commit suicide.

10 : 30 : Lose my job to a black person again. Shrug my shoulders. I'm to blame for complaining when my black boss tied me to the wagon wheel and whipped me. I also didn't fellate him nearly as enthusiastically as he demands. I should know better.**11 : 00 am : As I'm arming myself to go home my boss says he can't wait for Mandela to die so that he can kill white people legally. He promises to first kill my children and make me watch while he performs satanistic rituals with their hearts and drinks their blood. I thank him for his relatively kind words. He's not as bad as other black people.

11 : 30 am : I'm murdered and become a silent statistic. *


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## Tristan17

One must hold a special astonishment reserved for the type of person who is so lacking in perspective and self absorbed that they could say anything as wildly narcicistic and self centric as "South Africa used to be a first world country when whites ruled it."

What absolute gob smacking rubbish of the highest order.


A few facts about when whites ruled. 30 % of people had electricity. 20% were born in a hospital. The average income was over 150% (inflated related) lower. 10% of people had basic human rights.There was 50% more violent crime (yes, murder is 50% down since 1994) And we were a first world country ?

I could really go on and on and on. But what a silly, absurd and stupid thing to have to spend time debunking.


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## Daxk

Tristan17 said:


> One must hold a special astonishment reserved for the type of person who is so lacking in perspective and self absorbed that they could say anything as wildly narcicistic and self centric as "South Africa used to be a first world country when whites ruled it."
> 
> What absolute gob smacking rubbish of the highest order.
> 
> 
> A few facts about when whites ruled. 30 % of people had electricity. 20% were born in a hospital. The average income was over 150% (inflated related) lower. 10% of people had basic human rights.There was 50% more violent crime (yes, murder is 50% down since 1994) And we were a first world country ?
> 
> I could really go on and on and on. But what a silly, absurd and stupid thing to have to spend time debunking.


Then why bother??


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## Daxk

Tristan17 said:


> Hi Anne-Marie. Now that you're in beutiful Cape Town I'd love to hear how much your experience matches that of some of the rather ridicuous quakers on here.
> 
> If you allow many South Africans of a certain generation (who are nostalgic for the days of Apartheid) the time they would paint a picture of South Africa much like this.
> *
> Diary of a white South African if he thought a foriegner was reading it.
> 
> 6:00 am : Awoken again by the sounds of gun shots and screams of rape. Take a quick walk around the house. Kids are still alive. Temporary.
> 
> 6 30 am : Dig out some old cans of baked beans from the rations pantry. Hardly an appropriate meal for a man on death row. And as a white South African who plans to go out today to go to work , one might as well be walking the green mile.
> 
> 7 : am : Begin the pointless task of taking a shower. I'll soon be covered in blood and bits of stranger’s brains anyway. As always when showering I chiefly think about Jacob Zuma. Did you know Africans think showering and beetroot can cure aids ?
> 
> I get out and put on my clothes, starting with my diapers. I'll doubtless ***** myself sometime during the day on one of the many life threatening encounters I'll have. I put on my camouflaged pants and bullet proof vest and tuck in my pistol.
> 
> 7 30am : Start the long arduous task of unlocking the steel door. Lift the beams, unpadlock the chains, pull out the bolts, punch in a code, turn the dials ....and take a deep breath. slowly push the door open with the rifle of the shot gun. Nobody in plain site. They must be preparing an ambush.
> 
> 7 31 am : I give the orders to my neighbor and car pool friend on the walkie talkie. In unison with a "go ! go ! go !" we raid our lawns like a blitzkrieg diving first behind our strategically placed sandbags. We let out a few rounds at any bushes before getting into the car.
> 
> "Where's your wife ?" I ask him.
> 
> "She took a particular bad raping last night, she's calling in sick. I hope she doesn't have aids. Do you know Thabo Mbeki thinks aids can be cured with garlic?" He tells me.
> 
> "I sure do, did she take a shower?"
> 
> We laugh. Ah, the strange but rare and fleeting sensation of laughter. I'd almost forgotten I was capable of it.
> 
> "How're the kids? " I ask him.
> 
> "Little Timmy took a bullet , but the few we have left are all still alive. Freakish luck. "
> 
> "Yes, I say, mine are alive too. It's been a good week. A few cousins hacked to death with machetes, but nothing that would make the papers."
> 
> Our chit chat is interrupted by the familiar whistle of mortars coming in. We speed off.
> 
> 7 47 : Arrive at work attracting hardly any gun fire or driving over anyone whose fallen in the streets because of aids. Did you know, 2 out of every 1 South Africans has contracted aids at least 5 times? We make it into the office.
> 
> 8 am : Role call. The boss comes in to see who has made it to work alive. We've lost a secretary but not one with big tits, so there's all round relief.
> 
> 8 30 : The electricity comes on for a brief few minutes. The boss runs out excitedly ringing his bell.."Quickly he says !!! To the computers while we have the chance !!!" ...After a few moments we recover from the shock of having electricity we rush down to the fireman poles and slide down to the computer room. We quickly finish our work (there's not much to do since the south African economy has entirely collapsed ) so we use this precious time to go on youtube and spread the negative truth about South Africa on any videos we can find. I find one of a tourist who thinks they had a nice time in South Africa but quickly correct them and warn anyone from coming lest they want to commit suicide.
> 
> 10 : 30 : Lose my job to a black person again. Shrug my shoulders. I'm to blame for complaining when my black boss tied me to the wagon wheel and whipped me. I also didn't fellate him nearly as enthusiastically as he demands. I should know better.**11 : 00 am : As I'm arming myself to go home my boss says he can't wait for Mandela to die so that he can kill white people legally. He promises to first kill my children and make me watch while he performs satanistic rituals with their hearts and drinks their blood. I thank him for his relatively kind words. He's not as bad as other black people.
> 
> 11 : 30 am : I'm murdered and become a silent statistic. *


Nice bit of Satire.
and like most satire,it has elements of truth in it.


----------



## Tristan17

Daxk said:


> Nice bit of Satire.
> and like most satire,it has elements of truth in it.


Indeed. The truth being the absurd, insane neurosis and hyperbole used by certain South Africans when describing their country. Or is there something in there you consider to be factual ? I'd love to know what it is.


----------



## Daxk

Tristan17 said:


> Indeed. The truth being the absurd, insane neurosis and hyperbole used by certain South Africans when describing their country. Or is there something in there you consider to be factual ? I'd love to know what it is.


Locking everything up, gunshots at night, rapes, Beetroot and Garlic, showers to cure aids,.Power Failures, AA,... etc.. etc... to paraphrase The King and I....

aaah forget, you live in Cape Town..., nothing happens beyond the mountain!


----------



## Tristan17

Daxk said:


> Locking everything up, gunshots at night, rapes, Beetroot and Garlic, showers to cure aids,.Power Failures, AA,... etc.. etc... to paraphrase The King and I....
> 
> aaah forget, you live in Cape Town..., nothing happens beyond the mountain!


If there's a tiny element of truth to any of those things it is indeed tiny. Not saying rape etc doesn't happen (which fool would) but it's quite another lie to pretend any of these things are commonly or likely experienced if ever. Beetroot , Garlic and showers were never presented as something that could cure Aids. Not one single time. A diverse diet was presented as a way of living healthier with the disease but of course our wonderful media just heard , or pretended to hear what they wanted to hear. And incredibly intelligent and rational person like Thabo Mbeki is not some pseudo- witchdoctor believing monkey. Power failures ? That's so september to november 2007.


----------



## Halo

*More ANC Genius*

Robbie: You have said that the policy of the ministry is well known. Do you accept that HIV causes Aids?

Tshabalala-Msimang: Why do you ask me that question today? I have answered that question umpteen times.

R: Yes, and the answer is?

T-M: Umpteen times I have answered that question. My whole track record of having worked at the area of HIV and Aids for the last 20 years is testimony. Why should you ask me that question today?

R: You haven't answered the question, Manto.

T-M: Why should you ask me that question?

R: To avoid confusion.

T-M: I have never said anything contrary to what you want me to say today.

R: So, therefore, you accept that HIV causes Aids.

T-M: You are not going to put words into my mouth.

R: I am not putting words into your mouth. I am asking you a question.

T-M: Yes you are.

R: I am asking you a straight - now hold on a second - I am asking you a straight question, the minister of health of South Africa, I am asking you a question: does HIV cause Aids?

T-M: I have been party to developing a strategic framework and that strategy testifies what my policy understandings of the HIV epidemic are. If you haven't read that, please go and read it. And then you will understand where I depart from.

R: Manto, Manto. A simple yes or no is the answer I am looking for.

T-M: You will not force me into a corner into saying yes or no.

R: I am not forcing you into a corner, I am asking you a straight question - I find your reaction bizarre.

T-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but on the tenets of the framework.

R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it.

T-M: I am not Manto to you. Let me tell you I am not Manto to you.

R: What are you?

T-M: I am the minister of health and I don't even know you.

R: So, what must I address you as, Miss Minister or Ms Minister or Mrs Minister?

T-M: I don't know whatever you address me, but I am not a friend.

R: How must I address you?

T-M: I don't know - but you have to read the strategic framework.

R: Bizarre.

T-M: And I

... R: Oh go away!

T-M: And I am ...

R: I cannot take that rubbish any longer. Can you believe it? I have never in my life heard such rubbish. Here we have a situation where the minister of health sends out a document, amongst others, that is Looney tunes, that suggests that the Illuminati have conspired with the aliens to bring about Aids to reduce the African population. Now you get the minister on [radio] to explain this and see what happens. "Given that the president has led, not just in South Africa, but a complete world controversy, where many people think this country has been held up to ridicule at an international conference over this issue and given the proximity of the two, I thought it would be a good idea to get the minister in on this issue ... "... the fact that she would not answer that question leads me to be very, very worried indeed. I find that bizarre. Anyway, I won't call her Manto again".


----------



## Halo

The ANC is just a club for x-cons and people with low IQ's. As Tutu said "The ANC just stopped the Gravy train long enough to get on....." And boy can they pack that train.


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> *More ANC Genius*
> 
> Robbie: You have said that the policy of the ministry is well known. Do you accept that HIV causes Aids?
> 
> Tshabalala-Msimang: Why do you ask me that question today? I have answered that question umpteen times.
> 
> R: Yes, and the answer is?
> 
> T-M: Umpteen times I have answered that question. My whole track record of having worked at the area of HIV and Aids for the last 20 years is testimony. Why should you ask me that question today?
> 
> R: You haven't answered the question, Manto.
> 
> T-M: Why should you ask me that question?
> 
> R: To avoid confusion.
> 
> T-M: I have never said anything contrary to what you want me to say today.
> 
> R: So, therefore, you accept that HIV causes Aids.
> 
> T-M: You are not going to put words into my mouth.
> 
> R: I am not putting words into your mouth. I am asking you a question.
> 
> T-M: Yes you are.
> 
> R: I am asking you a straight - now hold on a second - I am asking you a straight question, the minister of health of South Africa, I am asking you a question: does HIV cause Aids?
> 
> T-M: I have been party to developing a strategic framework and that strategy testifies what my policy understandings of the HIV epidemic are. If you haven't read that, please go and read it. And then you will understand where I depart from.
> 
> R: Manto, Manto. A simple yes or no is the answer I am looking for.
> 
> T-M: You will not force me into a corner into saying yes or no.
> 
> R: I am not forcing you into a corner, I am asking you a straight question - I find your reaction bizarre.
> 
> T-M: I would advise you to read the strategic framework. You have to analyse it. It is important for the media to inform the public about the positions of government ... It is time that when you interview people, not on yes or no, but on the tenets of the framework.
> 
> R: Manto, we have gone as far as we can go. I find your reaction to that question absolutely bizarre and that is my final word on it.
> 
> T-M: I am not Manto to you. Let me tell you I am not Manto to you.
> 
> R: What are you?
> 
> T-M: I am the minister of health and I don't even know you.
> 
> R: So, what must I address you as, Miss Minister or Ms Minister or Mrs Minister?
> 
> T-M: I don't know whatever you address me, but I am not a friend.
> 
> R: How must I address you?
> 
> T-M: I don't know - but you have to read the strategic framework.
> 
> R: Bizarre.
> 
> T-M: And I
> 
> ... R: Oh go away!
> 
> T-M: And I am ...
> 
> R: I cannot take that rubbish any longer. Can you believe it? I have never in my life heard such rubbish. Here we have a situation where the minister of health sends out a document, amongst others, that is Looney tunes, that suggests that the Illuminati have conspired with the aliens to bring about Aids to reduce the African population. Now you get the minister on [radio] to explain this and see what happens. "Given that the president has led, not just in South Africa, but a complete world controversy, where many people think this country has been held up to ridicule at an international conference over this issue and given the proximity of the two, I thought it would be a good idea to get the minister in on this issue ... "... the fact that she would not answer that question leads me to be very, very worried indeed. I find that bizarre. Anyway, I won't call her Manto again".



Where is the part about anyone saying beetroot and garlic can cure Aids ?

Even the top virologists in the world don't pretend to understand exactly how hiv works as a retro viras. Fancy you and John Robbie knowing better to so firmly declare that HIV = Aids and that's the end of it. The world would be a scary place if scientists declared consensus on everything from HIV to Global warmimg and people were no longer allowed to ask questions/propose alternatives. There would be no new ideas and we'd stagnate in our own arrogant belief that we know everything.

You do know that South Africa is one of the only countries in the world to give free ARV's to people don't you ?


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> The ANC is just a club for x-cons and people with low IQ's. As Tutu said "The ANC just stopped the Gravy train long enough to get on....." And boy can they pack that train.


Welcome to the real world. And you're right to be angry about corruption. But you would sleep far better if you took te time to just get a balanced perspective on how relatitively smll scale and unsophisticated corruption is in South Africa compared to just about anywhere else. I mean we have a hernia because some politicians spend their travel expenses on other things, while the western world is feigning democratic opposition while working together to create inflation, start wars for weapons and oil profits, manipulating trade deals etc. Africa might have more obvious corruption but it's tiny in scale to the sophisicated and far more sinister Western corruption. Actually the most batant corruption is probably found in Asia and South America and then probably Africa.


----------



## Tristan17

So...crime in cape town.....


----------



## Halo

"AZT was never meant to treat HIV. It was meant to treat cancer and, when it was discovered to be toxic, the drug companies stopped clinic trials of the drug because it was so toxic. Is this drug really one we want to use?"Manto Tshabalala-Msimang 
November 1999

"Today I want to dispel this myth, because it is absolutely not true .[ that ARV's work ] The pharmaceutical industry and those who have a vested interest in the drug industry fuels this propaganda."Manto Tshabalala-Msimang 
7 November 2000

" I think garlic is absolutely critical. Lemon is absolutely critical to boost the immune system. Olive oil is absolutely critical ... just one teaspoon, it will last the whole month."Manto Tshabalala-Msimang 
9 February 2004

This woman like Mbeki found wisdom at the bottom of a bottle.....


----------



## Halo

Tristan17 said:


> Welcome to the real world. And you're right to be angry about corruption. But you would sleep far better if you took te time to just get a balanced perspective on how relatitively smll scale and unsophisticated corruption is in South Africa compared to just about anywhere else. I mean we have a hernia because some politicians spend their travel expenses on other things, while the western world is feigning democratic opposition while working together to create inflation, start wars for weapons and oil profits, manipulating trade deals etc. Africa might have more obvious corruption but it's tiny in scale to the sophisicated and far more sinister Western corruption. Actually the most batant corruption is probably found in Asia and South America and then probably Africa.


Anecdotal - Please check your facts

Corruption by country. Definition, graph and map.

Its probably lower now.....


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> Anecdotal - Please check your facts
> 
> Corruption by country. Definition, graph and map.
> 
> Its probably lower now.....


Talk about anecdotal and you show me a study done by a survey and hence purely based on perception ? From that page.



> DEFINITION: A CPI Score relates to perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by business people and country analysts and ranges between 10 (highly clean) and 0 (highly corrupt). Includes police corruption, business corruption, political corruption, etc. Data for 2005.


Now most South African business people are what race group ? A race group that historically has a prejudice against another race group in power now ? Even this historical prejudice we still rated ourselves 44th least corrupt country in the world out of 200+. Imagine how corrupt other people must find their government ? And I notice the United States might percieve themselves to be less corrupt etc , again that's just speaks of the sophistication of the corruption.


----------



## jojo

Can I just point out that the only time we seem to have unrest and arguments on the forum is when we have our regular visits from posters who declare that SA is peaceful - it does make one wonder what their definition of "peace" actually is. Shouting the loudest does not make you right, so pack it in - its turning our forum into a warzone which isnt pleasant for anyone!

jo


----------



## Halo

Perception is reality..... Ask that to the next MP who flies around the country to buy furniture. The stats are what they are..... South Africa is a beautiful country but its turning into another banana republic.

Its just not an option for people with Children.... Like the rest of Africa, it has no future - Unless you like that type of thing.


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> Perception is reality..... Ask that to the next MP who flies around the country to buy furniture. The stats are what they are..... South Africa is a beautiful country but its turning into another banana republic.
> 
> Its just not an option for people with Children.... Like the rest of Africa, it has no future - Unless you like that type of thing.


Wrong. Flat out wrong. The perception , especilly some white South Africans have of their country does not equal reality. Most say crime is going up when every single study done on the matter say it's going down. Most say whites are the most affected by crime when every single study done shows they are by far the least. People say whites can't get jobs but in reality 4% of working aged whites are unemployed and whites are still by far the wealthiest groups. The perception is that South Africa is a dangerous country to travel in is flat out wrong. Compared to just about anywhere we have an extremely safe record for tourists. This is exactly the problem. South Africa's PERCEPTION is down the toilet, while in REALITY many things are far better than they are presented by many people like yourself. 

I don't know if you actallly believe these things because you just read sensationalistic media and choose not to question it (confirmation bias) or are in fact just part of the problem just talking down anything related to South Africa because you have issue with a black run country. Either way the perception you are giving off of some "Banana republic" does not match the reality. 

The reality is not that South Africa is a Utopia, but it's also not as bad as many many many people here make out. Nothing more and nothing less.


----------



## jojo

There obviously s a problem in SA otherwise you guys wouldnt argue about it on here and turn it into a "snapshot" of a country with serious civil unrest. It doesnt happen on any of the other country forums

Jo


----------



## Tristan17

jojo said:


> Can I just point out that the only time we seem to have unrest and arguments on the forum is when we have our regular visits from posters who declare that SA is peaceful - it does make one wonder what their definition of "peace" actually is. Shouting the loudest does not make you right, so pack it in - its turning our forum into a warzone which isnt pleasant for anyone!
> 
> jo


South Africa isn't peaceful ? For me it certanly is. And who are you to be the authority on what "peacful" means to anyone ? It's also peaceful for the 10's of thousands of people who choose to retire here every year. You want to stop people from presenting a rational calm perspective about their country, but are happy to let other present an extremely biast and pessimistic perspective just to "keep the peace"?

I suppose you get two kinds of people in the world. The overtly pessmistic type of negative person would never even chose to move to Africa in the first place. No need to discourage them really. But for the type of person who understand there is no country of cotton wool walls in the world ruled by the care bears, there is no reason to tell them that South Africa is a place something terrible is likely to happen to them, when the facts show it's simply not true.


----------



## Tristan17

jojo said:


> There obviously s a problem in SA otherwise you guys wouldnt argue about it on here and turn it into a "snapshot" of a country with serious civil unrest. It doesnt happen on any of the other country forums
> 
> Jo


I doubt you understand the first thing about what postions we come from. Sometimes th world can be complicated and the ones who seem to you to just be "trying to help" are really just trying to help themselves. If you think this forum is made up of concerned ex citizens that just want to save people from coming to harm, then trust me , you haven't begun to understands what motivates either side. Not all is at it seems. There's years of propoganda, prejudice etc at play. We are a country that was at war ith itself for hundreds of years made up of very diverse people. When we're talking about things like "crime" we're often actually talking about "before or now" or "black or white " or "fascism versus democracy". I suggest you can't unerstand it so don't take sides.


----------



## Johanna

Tristan17 said:


> The reality is not that South Africa is a Utopia, but it's also not as bad as many many many people here make out. Nothing more and nothing less.


I agree with this.

I personally am happy to be back in SA and love the country and most of its people.


----------



## jojo

Tristan17 said:


> South Africa isn't peaceful ? For me it certanly is. And who are you to be the authority on what "peacful" means to anyone ? It's also peaceful for the 10's of thousands of people who choose to retire here every year. You want to stop people from presenting a rational calm perspective about their country, but are happy to let other present an extremely biast and pessimistic perspective just to "keep the peace"?
> 
> I suppose you get two kinds of people in the world. The overtly pessmistic type of negative person would never even chose to move to Africa in the first place. No need to discourage them really. But for the type of person who understand there is no country of cotton wool walls in the world ruled by the care bears, there is no reason to tell them that South Africa is a place something terrible is likely to happen to them, when the facts show it's simply not true.


..... and your point is what exactly? It seems to me that all you want to do is come on the forum and cause arguments - which then makes you come across as an aggressor and goes against what you seem to be trying to promote???? 

Jo


----------



## jojo

Johanna said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I personally am happy to be back in SA and love the country and most of its people.



I was talking to someone from SA last night and he was saying what a beautiful country it is - second to none, he painted such a lovely picture that I almost felt like coming over and taking a look !! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Halo

Tristan17 seems to have some Black/White issues..............


----------



## Tristan17

jojo said:


> ..... and your point is what exactly? It seems to me that all you want to do is come on the forum and cause arguments - which then makes you come across as an aggressor and goes against what you seem to be trying to promote????
> 
> Jo


My point, as I said before is that South Arica is neither a Utopia nor anything like the hell hold often described on here. Nothing more, nothing less. When I have said this people have thrown stats at me which I have debunked effectively with stats of my own. Because I have done this well and with speed and sound logic it may seem as if I have been aggresive. That's an illusion you're projecting onto my actions because they have seemed brutally swift and effective .


----------



## Halo

Tristan17 said:


> My point, as I said before is that South Arica is neither a Utopia nor anything like the hell hold often described on here. Nothing more, nothing less. When I have said this people have thrown stats at me which I have debunked effectively with stats of my own. Because I have done this well and with speed and sound logic it may seem as if I have been aggresive. That's an illusion you're projecting onto my actions because they have seemed brutally swift and effective .


What stats?


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> What stats?


The various studies I have posted on here to back up my view that the gross majority of volent crime affects certain people in certain areas an thus is quite easily avoided.


----------



## Halo

Tristan17 said:


> The various studies I have posted on here to back up my view that the gross majority of volent crime affects certain people in certain areas an thus is quite easily avoided.


Would you please post them again, along with links. Thank you.


----------



## jojo

Tristan17 said:


> My point, as I said before is that South Arica is neither a Utopia nor anything like the hell hold often described on here. Nothing more, nothing less. When I have said this people have thrown stats at me which I have debunked effectively with stats of my own. Because I have done this well and with speed and sound logic it may seem as if I have been aggresive. That's an illusion you're projecting onto my actions because they have seemed brutally swift and effective .



You have not done this well at all! If you wish to post about the good things in SA and to refute the claims of violence, unrest etc then you need to learn diplomacy and how to conduct yourself in a pleasant manner on forums! That way people might actually believe what you write and it may not turn into a "warzone" 

A discussion or a debate is fine when people can put their points across like adults without resorting to name calling, aggressive posts and getting angry!

Jo xxx


----------



## Tristan17

jojo said:


> You have not done this well at all! If you wish to post about the good things in SA and to refute the claims of violence, unrest etc then you need to learn diplomacy and how to conduct yourself in a pleasant manner on forums! That way people might actually believe what you write and it may not turn into a "warzone"
> 
> A discussion or a debate is fine when people can put their points across like adults without resorting to name calling, aggressive posts and getting angry!
> 
> Jo xxx


You're the one who seems to be getting angry. I suggest if two adults want to debate each other (and I have not resorted to name calling) as we are doing, we have the right to do it without the P.C police silencing us. He keeps calling me out on my assertions, it's clear he wants the debate. What's it to you if I respond strongly with facts, counter ideas and obersvations in whatever style I choose ? 

After all what you seem to be missing is a support for the "South Africa under black rule is terrible place to live" argment, given that it is not backed up by anything factual, is a passive vote for fascism and an emotional high five to the horrific system of Apartheid. This is an emotional issue and people will get heated when someone supports such a statement. You might not share our history and scars and we might not share your bunnies and rainbows "keep the peace rather than confront" world view. Live and let live. A no time did I start engaging you on a forum and telling you what and how to talk about it. Until I break a forum rule you'll kindy show a sense of fair play and leave me alone to debate with who I wish t.


----------



## Tristan17

Halo said:


> Would you please post them again, along with links. Thank you.


Make a statement related to the subject matter. If I disagree I will do so. I can't double guess what it is you're thinking. 

Here are some previous links I have given here.

Race, class & violent crime in South Africa: Dispelling the ‘Huntley Thesis’ Writing Rights

Where I demonstarted the white female murder rate was shown to be 2.5 per 100 000(most often at the hands of a spouse, which is less than half the murder rate of the Untes States) and the male one is 13 per 100 000. Both significantly lower than the average murder rate. 

Again here more on the topic.

A Murderous Legacy, Coloured homicide trends in South Africa

Here's on the murder rate decreasing 30% in number and 50% per capita since 1994.

Murder down 30% since 1994, research shows - News - Mail & Guardian Online

What exactly do you want me to show you ?


----------



## Tristan17

I should also mention there was a further 8.6% decrease in murder since that report was done.


----------



## vegasboy

*I am so despondent with my rental properties*

I received the following email from a good tenant living in an upmarket gated community in Somerset West, Cape Town, today. This state of affairs is now becoming the norm and a hopeless situation: I'm placing her email verbatim which is self explanatory:

"I have been living at ............... for almost 2years. There has been problems regarding safety and security since I moved in. The problems have recently been getting worse, and has reached a point where it is now totally unacceptable.

The complex is well kept, the grounds are neat, in spite of the riff-raff that comes and goes.

Washing is being stolen off the clothes-lines and off our private patios. We intially had a laundry fitted with washing-machines and dryers, but no more.

Intruders stick their heads through the windows at night while you are sleeping, cars get broken into, and burglaries occur while you are sleeping! The electric fence is not working, and never has been. The security company is no good, and you actually have to wake them up sometimes to let you in. 

They allow anybody entry to the complex, and are incompetent. Taxis full of non-residents use the swimming pool......."


----------



## Halo

Thats why I bought in the UK....... South Africa = Nigeria in 20 years ---> My kids can live in Europe or Australia..... and not have to worry about getting money in and out.

Simple reality --- South Africa is going nowhere --> Fast


----------



## Daxk

Naah Vegas, I had a bad one last year where I was questioning wether to sell up and take it out.
then I looked at what I could buy here (I have commercial properties and one residential)

If I sold up, after Capital gains, even if the strength of the Rand (or rather the weakness of the Euro) changes, I still cant replace unless the rand tanks to 20:1
.
what I am doing is gearing up so the banks are carrying the risk up to what I could rent out at 20% below market value and moving that out.


----------



## Halo

Makes sense.... Can't believe the nut-jobs that actually want to move to SA..... Some with kids.


----------



## vegasboy

Daxk said:


> Naah Vegas, I had a bad one last year where I was questioning wether to sell up and take it out.
> then I looked at what I could buy here (I have commercial properties and one residential)
> 
> If I sold up, after Capital gains, even if the strength of the Rand (or rather the weakness of the Euro) changes, I still cant replace unless the rand tanks to 20:1
> .
> what I am doing is gearing up so the banks are carrying the risk up to what I could rent out at 20% below market value and moving that out.


 EXACTLY what I am doing. I know the US market is not hot, but whatever I move out through leverage, I invest into real estate in Florida, also now looking at Las Vegas, but only very specific areas. Awesome deals, but I guess we will have to wait a few years to see a noticeable upswing.


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## Halo

Good for South Africa. It all depends on how you measure "growth" - I measure it by my personal freedom and safety.


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## spacedman

Halo said:


> Good for South Africa. It all depends on how you measure "growth" - I measure it by my personal freedom and safety.


Question. 

Regarding personal freedom do you agree that conpared to the U.K South Africa offers way more personal freedom to the middle classes ? I mean the freedom to go out to dinner, pubs, trips is just so econoically more viable here. Apart from that the weather also makes you far more free to pursue activities such as golf or fishing. There are no go areas but how often are you forced to go there ? Never in my case. Also as far as nanny state is concerned I'm way more free here to live out my life without fear of some government employed jerk spoiling my fun. I suppose this is reflected by how much higher the U.K suicide rate is that S.A.

Safety wise do you honestly think a slightly esculated chance of murder (and it is actually very slight in the grand scheme) is a valid reason to avoid some place ? A place with a better quality of life and climate and more relaxed lifestyle ? I'd bet your chances of living longer are vastly esculated by living in country like South Africa than the U.K when all health benefits and considerations are taken into account. I would love to see the average life expectancy (OF THE MIDDLE CLASSES) compared. Even if South Africa came out slighly below (I doubt it) you'd surely admit the years alive were a heck of a lot more enjoyed in S.A. Whaever happens you realise we do die right ? All of us ? I for one don't plan on staying alive in some sanitised boring place for the sake of it. I'd rather live it up where it's most fun.... the chaos. Your number is up eventually anyway no matter how obedient and quaint and safe you think you're making youself and think you are, life will B-slap you eventually. A pig in a cage on antibiotics is what you end up.

Now this is just a thought experiment , nobody get carried away. But I really feel our culture is just more set up for hapiness than these tight overtly cautious nanny states. I'm babbling but let me sum up. If you're going to try and make your life neurotically trying to minimise any form of risk, you're going to end up with the most boring , dull, meaningless life ever. The fight or flight reflex is the most basic form of instinct that even the lowest form of life share. It's based in ancient repltile part of our brain. The frontol lobes are where we house our humanity. Any form of sophisticated thought is based here. To give into fear and irrationality is to basically reduce your humanity to nothing. This is why I encourage rational sophisticated responses to stimuli, especially negative traumatic ones. If you don't learn to do this you will live a very small , sad life. Fear cripples. So take all the data and facts you can find and formulate your world view to that standard or you'll end up stagnant. 

Thoughts ?


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## EthenGroom

Hi 

People tend to over exaggerrate the situation in South Africa. As long as you take the necessary precautions that you would take in any other country, you should be fine.

Cape Town is a stunning place and you are guaranteed to have a lot of fun there and to meet some really interesting people


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## Daxk

Hi Ethangroom, what precautions would you suggest people in other Countries take against home invasions?


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## mano1438

Daxk said:


> Hi Ethangroom, what precautions would you suggest people in other Countries take against home invasions?


Hi Daxk, well in South Africa you do have the advantage that you can be armed and be able to protect yourself and your family, so one does stand a better chance, but did you know that in Spain you may not attack an intruder in your home, if you do you will be locked up quicker than the actual intruder, even if he is murdering your family in front of you!!!!

So there are laws and there are laws.


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## Daxk

Hi Mano, yes, here in Ireland they have only just changed the law so that you can protect yourself if you are threatened.
and exactly the same as any Country you have to prove that you used justifiable force.
but thats not what we are talking about.

the precautions I have seen people take in other countries, particularly first world Countries that potential expats on this site come from,(UK,Ireland, Belgium,France, Netherlands etc..) do not take the equivalent precautions that someone living in Sandton or Midrand or Pretoria does.

or would you disagree?


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## Daxk

mano1438 said:


> Hi Daxk, well in South Africa you do have the advantage that you can be armed and be able to protect yourself and your family, so one does stand a better chance, but did you know that in Spain you may not attack an intruder in your home, if you do you will be locked up quicker than the actual intruder, even if he is murdering your family in front of you!!!!
> 
> So there are laws and there are laws.


Th law in SA is very clear.
if you have used a weapon to protect yourself, even in your own home, the weapon is confiscated and you are automatically charged with the relevant Classification(murder/attempted murder/assualt) until such time as there has been a decision by the NPA on wether to proceed and either charge you a lesser charge such as manslaughter or to drop the case.

If there has been a death, although innocent until proven guilty, the onus is on you to prove that you used sufficient justifiable force, ie if the burglar/attacker is armed with a knife and you shoot him, the Court will deem that the threat of the firearm was sufficient and by shooting him you used unjustifiable force.

a Client of mine spent close to a quarter of a million rand and two years of his life defending the fact that he shot two intruders with a shotgun when they were armed with a knife and a sharpened screwdriver.


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## mano1438

As they would say in South Africa...Eish!!!!
But I consider that one does stand a better chance where one can still,at least try to defend yourself and/or loved ones, naturally if one points a firearm at an intruder and he still will attack you with what ever weapon, then one must defend oneself and naturally it will be terrible to have to shoot anyone, but in such a case where one has to defend his family I think it to be fair, but here in Spain one may not even punch the intruder!!!!....the funny thing is that the law is blank about the passage into the home, in other words, between the door entrance and the actual home, apparently in that small passage the law is different there, but only there.


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## kiwifruity

mano1438 said:


> As they would say in South Africa...Eish!!!!
> But I consider that one does stand a better chance where one can still,at least try to defend yourself and/or loved ones, naturally if one points a firearm at an intruder and he still will attack you with what ever weapon, then one must defend oneself and naturally it will be terrible to have to shoot anyone, but in such a case where one has to defend his family I think it to be fair, but here in Spain one may not even punch the intruder!!!!....the funny thing is that the law is blank about the passage into the home, in other words, between the door entrance and the actual home, apparently in that small passage the law is different there, but only there.



Hmm, very interesting - I grew up in Natal and YES, I do realize the extent of crime there in SA. Sadly my parent left SA when I was 16, my brothers stayed behind, as they were old enough to look after themselves. I remember one break-in at our property in Natal, not so violent back then with the home invasions as violent as they are these days.....but, my Dad and my oldest brother had a gun, but thankfully never had to use it...........But wait.....

Now when we were in Sydney - we would have never thought of owning a firearm - and in the last past 2 years we have had our car stolen, joyridden and smashed up. My son's mate was beaten up badly in front of our house by youths.......for $100 which he had drawn out of the ATM around the corner. Our second eldest son was mugged after a footy match for his mobile, will he walked home, and a shocking house invasion by a gang of 4, entering our home through our bathroom window - they turned EVERYTHING upside down, trashed everything and peed on our beds and knifed open our mattresses......oh, and also left 3 used syringes on our lounge floor - the cops caught them at 3am, 2 streets away, all drugged up. The shock......my husband and boys were out fishing, I was alone with our 10 year old daughter that night. My brother called and invited my daughter and I to dinner......I had some wine at my brothers house and thought better to spend the night......if we had not gone out that night/or come home at 10.30pm - yes, we would have been in the house ......think you all get the picture. This drugged up gang had already bashed an unsuspecting couple coming home, so badly was the husband beaten, he was hospitalized...............would I have (if I had) a gun used it in that situation - HELL YES!! Regarding of laws.....we will do anything to protect our family, especially our children - hence we left......

I am sad for the folk in SA who have had to deal with crime.....we too have had our fair share - and we were not even in SA.....:confused2: But, will never 'dis' OZ - or it's folk - as we have many wonderful mates there still.:clap2:


Roxy


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## Halo

Roxy, with all due respect, you have no idea about South Africa, its problems, level of crime and hatred. Be thankful you are in OZ and have the opportunity the millions would love.


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## kiwifruity

Halo said:


> Roxy, with all due respect, you have no idea about South Africa, its problems, level of crime and hatred. Be thankful you are in OZ and have the opportunity the millions would love.



All those horrific things happened to us......IN OZ.....we relocated to NZ. 



Roxy


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## Daxk

kiwifruity said:


> Hmm, very interesting - I grew up in Natal and YES, I do realize the extent of crime there in SA. Sadly my parent left SA when I was 16, my brothers stayed behind, as they were old enough to look after themselves. I remember one break-in at our property in Natal, not so violent back then with the home invasions as violent as they are these days.....but, my Dad and my oldest brother had a gun, but thankfully never had to use it...........But wait.....
> 
> Now when we were in Sydney - we would have never thought of owning a firearm - and in the last past 2 years we have had our car stolen, joyridden and smashed up. My son's mate was beaten up badly in front of our house by youths.......for $100 which he had drawn out of the ATM around the corner. Our second eldest son was mugged after a footy match for his mobile, will he walked home, and a shocking house invasion by a gang of 4, entering our home through our bathroom window - they turned EVERYTHING upside down, trashed everything and peed on our beds and knifed open our mattresses......oh, and also left 3 used syringes on our lounge floor - the cops caught them at 3am, 2 streets away, all drugged up. The shock......my husband and boys were out fishing, I was alone with our 10 year old daughter that night. My brother called and invited my daughter and I to dinner......I had some wine at my brothers house and thought better to spend the night......if we had not gone out that night/or come home at 10.30pm - yes, we would have been in the house ......think you all get the picture. This drugged up gang had already bashed an unsuspecting couple coming home, so badly was the husband beaten, he was hospitalized...............would I have (if I had) a gun used it in that situation - HELL YES!! Regarding of laws.....we will do anything to protect our family, especially our children - hence we left......
> 
> I am sad for the folk in SA who have had to deal with crime.....we too have had our fair share - and we were not even in SA.....:confused2: But, will never 'dis' OZ - or it's folk - as we have many wonderful mates there still.:clap2:
> 
> 
> Roxy


Kiwi? which suburb was that?


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## ksmith

Nobody is saying home burglaries don't happen in other countries. But in SA, chances are much higher that you will be in your home when they invade and then, much higher again, that you could be a victim of violence. After looking at the frequency of home invasions in SA and in other countries, there is no way I believe that you are at the same risk in other countries. I have met and heard of people in the UK and my home, Canada, who've had their homes robbed, but it is rare for violence to be used. In SA, though, different story. The number of people I've met, or read about, that have had home invasions or been hijacked with guns pointed at them, or been hurt, is shocking.

Another story in iol paper today of a father killed in his house, on his sofa, while his children were sleeping in another room. They tied his hands and stabbed him in the chest. WHY???????As the comments said, why did they have to kill him? Apparently, his murder isn't the first in this area.

From reading various Uk, SA, and Canadian papers, crimes like the above, home invasions with violence, are MUCH, MUCH HIGHER in SA.


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## cosmosclown

Australia and the U.K have a much higher burgalry rate than South Africa.


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## Halo

cosmosclown said:


> Australia and the U.K have a much higher burgalry rate than South Africa.


Source please....


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## cosmosclown

Halo said:


> Source please....


Burglaries (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.


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## Halo

Sheet - I had better lock my doors


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## Daxk

Aaah!! suddenly we like nationmaster.
If Iadd up all the Burglary categories here as thy have all been divided into various groups tomake them look better, and i include aggravated and non aggravated Robberry residential and non residential I get to...15.6/1000

If I then also factor in that unless you are insured and there no-one has been hurt, there is a massive under reporting of crime by the Public.

so Cosmos Clown aka wants us to believe that Oz has a worse burglary factor than SA??

Puleeeze!!


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## cosmosclown

Daxk said:


> Aaah!! suddenly we like nationmaster.
> If Iadd up all the Burglary categories here as thy have all been divided into various groups tomake them look better, and i include aggravated and non aggravated Robberry residential and non residential I get to...15.6/1000
> 
> If I then also factor in that unless you are insured and there no-one has been hurt, there is a massive under reporting of crime by the Public.
> 
> so Cosmos Clown aka wants us to believe that Oz has a worse burglary factor than SA??
> 
> Puleeeze!!


You don't live in either country , yet you're so sure ? So you admit to a bias ?


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## Johanna

cosmosclown said:


> You don't live in either country , yet you're so sure ? So you admit to a bias ?


Please keep your personal disagreements to PM's.

Enough has been written about stats and even though I dearly love this country, the reality of the crime problem cannot be ignored.


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## casey1

cosmosclown said:


> Burglaries (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.


If you scroll down to the bottom, those stats are from 1998 - thats 13 years ago!!!!!!


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## cosmosclown

casey1 said:


> If you scroll down to the bottom, those stats are from 1998 - thats 13 years ago!!!!!!


Oh good. Burglary like most crime in South Africa is probably well down then. Let me try and find the stats.


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## cosmosclown

Johanna said:


> Please keep your personal disagreements to PM's.
> 
> Enough has been written about stats and even though I dearly love this country, the reality of the crime problem cannot be ignored.


Yes, let's not ignore the crime problem. But let's also not ignore how some people massively over state it. Stats are the only fair way for two people with a different perspective to present their case without making it personal or anecdotal. If I wanted to go to a country and some people were aying I would surely get murdered, and others were saying it's really not that bad, I wouldn't know who to believe. So I would want someone to show me the facts so I could make up my own mind.


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## cosmosclown

Yes, way down.

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2010/categories/burglary_residential.pdf


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## Halo

1. In SA if a few things are stolen from a house its rarely reported as nothing will happen.
2. Theft in most settlements are never reported.
3. In a first world country burglary is not normally accompanied by violent crime.
4. Agrivated assault in the UK = Someone pushing you aggressively.

You can't count CD players missing but you can count bodies that are buried.


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## Johanna

cosmosclown said:


> Yes, let's not ignore the crime problem. But let's also not ignore how some people massively over state it. Stats are the only fair way for two people with a different perspective to present their case without making it personal or anecdotal. If I wanted to go to a country and some people were aying I would surely get murdered, and others were saying it's really not that bad, I wouldn't know who to believe. So I would want someone to show me the facts so I could make up my own mind.


...and how some people under state it.


I live here.

I love it here.

But I see the news, read the newspapers, etc.

Yes, crime happens everywhere, but in a civilized society ( which we are supposed to be ) crime is not as violent and frequent as here. Much as I hate to admit it, most thefts are not even reported anymore as people feel relief if no murder or rape has taken place.

Please use PM facility for arguments.

I will remove all posts ( when I have time to ) that are rhetoric and irrelevant.


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## cosmosclown

Halo said:


> 1. In SA if a few things are stolen from a house its rarely reported as nothing will happen.
> 2. Theft in most settlements are never reported.
> 3. In a first world country burglary is not normally accompanied by violent crime.
> 4. Activated assault in the UK = Someone pushing you aggressively.
> 
> You can't count CD players missing but you can count bodies that are buried.


1) True. If I loose something that isn't insured I won't bother to go to the cops. But anything significant you would surely report it stolen for insurance pruposes at least. When my business with broken into they caught them the next day. Same with my lap top from my car. But both were pretty flukish.

2) I don't know about that. If your house was broken into and you didn't have insurance that might be the case.

3) Nor is it in third world countries. The gross majority of house breakings happen when people are not at home. And even when they are the gross majority are not harmed, but I imagine it is very traumatic if they are armed.

4) That depends on what company you keep. Like anywhere a stranger is unlikely to push you or assault you in S.A without good reason.


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## cosmosclown

Johanna said:


> ...and how some people under state it.
> 
> 
> I live here.
> 
> I love it here.
> 
> But I see the news, read the newspapers, etc.
> 
> Yes, crime happens everywhere, but in a civilized society ( which we are supposed to be ) crime is not as violent and frequent as here. Much as I hate to admit it, most thefts are not even reported anymore as people feel relief if no murder or rape has taken place.
> 
> Please use PM facility for arguments.
> 
> I will remove all posts ( when I have time to ) that are rhetoric and irrelevant.


I am not understating it. I am stating it as it is. No better and no worse.

Be honest enough to leave the posts with stats. They are obviousy relevant. People looking to make up their mind deserve to see the stats and make up their own mind.


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