# Family of four moving to Sydney



## Nashjohnsonr (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi Everyone, this is my first post and I was wondering if can get some help on where to live in Sydney. There are many suburbs, so its overwhelming to figure out which one to choose. 

We plan on moving to Sydney March of next year and I need your advice on where my family should live. 

Criteria: 

near water
family friendly
near transport
2 bedroom minimum 
safe area


Thanks!


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## jshara (Nov 21, 2011)

You will need to provide more info than that i.e. what your budget is, are you going to rent or buy? How will you commute etc.? Sydney is generally a safe, family friendly city but you do have some rough areas. Rule of thumb, closer you are to the harbour bridge, higher the price.


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## adamvagley (Apr 10, 2011)

Budget really is key as this is an expensive city and as the other response mentions, the closer you are to the beaches or harbor, the more you can expect to pay.

With that said, I think the north side of the harbor is a bit more family oriented. Mosman, for example, is quite popular (and quite expensive). The Eastern Suburbs (everything east of the city on the south side of the harbor) tends to be younger in most of the areas.

Check out domain [] com [] au or realestate [] com [] au to explore properties and see what your budget gets you in the various neighborhoods. Note that if you rent, prices are quoted per week, so you have to multiply by 52 and divide by 12 if you want to find out the monthly price.





Nashjohnsonr said:


> Hi Everyone, this is my first post and I was wondering if can get some help on where to live in Sydney. There are many suburbs, so its overwhelming to figure out which one to choose.
> 
> We plan on moving to Sydney March of next year and I need your advice on where my family should live.
> 
> ...


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

I’m not going to suggest a place to live as it’s subjective. Instead, as an American expat living in Sydney for the last 10 years, I am going to share some of my findings:
The downsides:

•	Two beds in Sydney are not the same as two beds in Nashville. Near water, near transport, in a safe area = $650 per week minimum. Take whatever space you are expecting, cut it in half and quadruple the price. No, really.
•	Rent will consume anywhere between 30%-50% of your gross income, depending on where you live and how much you earn.
•	Dollar for dollar, you will not be able to replicate your US financial position and purchasing power - unless you can triple your current US income. Accept the fact and move on.
•	Your repayments and running costs for a car will be 2x what you are used to paying. Accept that you will have one car and it will probably be inferior to the one you currently have.
•	Food is about 50% more expensive. Partly because the absolute costs are higher. Partly because the quantities are noticeably smaller. One particular irritant is toothpaste. Live here a while and this will become clear.
•	Retail is 2x-3x more expensive with maybe 1/5 the selection you are used to. You can buy from Amazon but they’ve figured out Aussies are willing to pay more and gouge you on shipping.
•	You are used to highways like the I-40 and I-24. Freeways like this don’t exist in Sydney. I’m not kidding. Do NOT move along the M2, M4 or M5 corridors unless you want to pay $50- $100 per week in tolls. Again, not kidding.
•	It takes an hour (typically more) to get anywhere in Sydney. Average road speeds during rush hour are around 30kph. Also, every day of the week has rush hour. There is no letup on Saturday & Sunday. If anything, it’s worse. As an example, I live 8km (5 miles) from work and it takes me 45 minutes. That’s considered a good commute.
•	Buying a house has two downsides and one upside. Downside #1: A normal, non-descript 3-bed brick home in a decent area might cost $120k in Nashville. The same quality and location will cost you $750k in Sydney – very likely more. Downside #2: Property taxes are payable in a lump sum up front when you buy a house. On said $750k house, expect to pay about $30k in property tax (called Stamp Duty). You can’t borrow this money. Upside: there are no annual property taxes levied. 
•	The Australian market is dominated by cozy and collusive duopolies in virtually every industry. This adds considerably to the price of everything.
•	Labor costs are about 3x higher in Sydney. Further adding to the price of everything.
•	Feeding a family of 4 at McDonalds will set you back about $40. Eating a decent meal out (similar to Olive Garden) will cost $100. Eating a great meal…well…sky’s the limit. The upside: you are not expected to tip. The downside: you usually get mediocre service.
•	Public schools are available but it’s not like in the US where public schools are funded through property taxes (resulting in better schools in wealthier areas). You can have public schools in wealthy areas that are substandard. Likewise, you can have great public schools in very poor areas. As a result, private schooling is more the norm. Expect to pay anywhere from $3k-$20k in tuition per year, per child. It’s not unlike sending your kids to college (referred to as “university” here). Oh, and the cost of actual college (i.e. university) is an outrage. Expect to pay around $50k for an undergraduate degree. Best to send them back to the US for higher education (it’s cheaper and better).
•	Taxes: the actual rates are somewhat lower overall because you don’t have to deal with state taxes. Plus, federal tax is much easier to deal with than in the US. HOWEVER, because the cost of living is so high, you will end up paying absolutely and relatively more in taxes. This is because you need a high income to live here. This puts you in a higher tax bracket. This means you pay more. In 10 years, my spouse and I have paid about $600k in taxes. No, really.
•	If you need childcare, it will run you $80-$100 per day, per child (depending on their age). There are government subsidies you may be able to claim. Even so, expect to pay $50 per day minimum.
•	The distance you need to travel to see extended family might seem great at first, but then it will get old. Especially when they can’t/won’t visit and you have to put in all the effort. At $5000 per trip for a family of four, the kids won’t see the grandparents much (if ever). Also, the time difference gives you a very small window to call on the phone. And forget Skype – the distance and the poor network quality provided by local ISP’s makes it virtually unusable.
•	While I’m railing on about ISP’s, you DO NOT get unlimited broadband here. Expect to pay about $60-$70 per month for mediocre speeds and paltry download quotas (50GB is NOT a lot).

I could rail on about the negatives, of which there are many. However, there are certainly some upsides to living in Sydney:

•	The weather is great. You get 300+ days of sunshine. This is one reason Sydney is so expensive. Call it a “sunshine tax”.
•	The beaches are 100x better than anything you can find in the US. The beaches here make beaches in Florida look like a freeway combined with an ashtray.
•	There are lots of good job prospects in Sydney. Many pay quite well (because you will need it). Though, don’t expect the same work culture or career opportunities. Aussies work to live. Americans live to work. This is a very important distinction.
•	Fresh food is readily available in many specialty shops. In many places it’s at the same level as what you might find at Whole Foods. But as previously mentioned, you will pay quite a bit more for it.
•	The people are generally friendly and more down-to-earth. Of course, you find a-holes everywhere but the ratio tends to be lower in Sydney.
•	The Blue Mountains are a treasure. Explore them.
•	Tornadoes don’t happen in Sydney. Only someone from the US Midwest can truly appreciate this. 
•	There is a great focus on a healthy outdoor lifestyle. Embrace it. If you don’t plan to, then don’t bother living here because you are wasting your time and money.

All in all, Sydney is a good place to live….for a while. I’ve been here 10 years and I’m now “over it”. We are in the process moving back to the States. It’s just gotten too expensive. However, it’s been a good 10 year run. I can’t say if you will love it or hate it. Most likely, it will be a bit of both until you get to the point where you, too, are “over it”. Best of luck with your move!


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

ExpatJimmy said:


> I&#146;m not going to suggest a place to live as it&#146;s subjective. Instead, as an American expat living in Sydney for the last 10 years, I am going to share some of my findings:
> The downsides:
> 
> &#149;	Two beds in Sydney are not the same as two beds in Nashville. Near water, near transport, in a safe area = $650 per week minimum. Take whatever space you are expecting, cut it in half and quadruple the price. No, really.
> ...


Wow thanks for the frank and detailed response. Definitely gave me some food for thought. Really appreciate so much effort.

Alan.


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

Alan H said:


> Wow thanks for the frank and detailed response. Definitely gave me some food for thought. Really appreciate so much effort.
> 
> Alan.


You're welcome. Vancouver is affordable compared to Sydney. And Vancouver isn't affordable. 

If you want sun, try Brisbane. If you want culture, try Melbourne. If you want both but be bled to death with costs, then Sydney is for you!


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

Yes Vancouver is tough for sure

I worked for 2 years in Syd and 2 years in Mel,

Really likes Syd and Mel a lot 

Will see if we end up living in Syd or not

We want to move to AU because of the weather and Syd ha the best chance of a job. I'm in the computer software consulting business.


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## adamvagley (Apr 10, 2011)

Hi Alan,

Do you have a job lined up already? If not, send me a PM. I work for a major IT Consulting firm and it's a hot market here.

Cheers,
Adam


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

adamvagley said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> Do you have a job lined up already? If not, send me a PM. I work for a major IT Consulting firm and it's a hot market here.
> 
> ...


Hi Adam
Triend sending you a PM but because you don't have enough posts it blocked it.
What is your email address and I will send you an email

Alan.


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## shussel (Feb 18, 2011)

adamvagley said:


> Budget really is key as this is an expensive city and as the other response mentions, the closer you are to the beaches or harbor, the more you can expect to pay.
> 
> With that said, I think the north side of the harbor is a bit more family oriented. Mosman, for example, is quite popular (and quite expensive). The Eastern Suburbs (everything east of the city on the south side of the harbor) tends to be younger in most of the areas.
> 
> Check out domain [] com [] au or realestate [] com [] au to explore properties and see what your budget gets you in the various neighborhoods. Note that if you rent, prices are quoted per week, so you have to multiply by 52 and divide by 12 if you want to find out the monthly price.


We're in Sydney's South Eastern suburbs and love it. When we first arrived we stayed in Coogee but it's expensive and busier than where we are now. Also, as mentioned above, a younger crowd.
We love Maroubra and Malabar for more family friendly areas (cheaper than Coogee and popular Northern Beaches suburbs) - but you'll add about ten mins to your bus journey into the CBD.
A few useful resources:
Real Estate: http://www.domain.com.au and Real Estate, Property, Land and Homes for Sale, lease and rent - realestate.com.au
Suburb profiles: Moving to Sydney Melbourne Brisbane Adelaide? Find where to live cityhobo.com - Home
Sydney Travel Info (timetables and costs): 131500 Transport Infoline - Home

Also agree with other comments - there are plenty of challenges about living in Sydney (cost of living, competition for services etc.) but the beach lifestyle is first class!

We've been here 2 years and no regrets...


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

These are decent options. But don't forget the three cardinal rules in real estate: 1) location, 2) location, 3) location. Maroubra is kind of like the "tracks". North of the tracks = good. South of the tracks = not so good. I personally wouldn't live in Malabar. Coogee, yes. Maroubra, maybe - if the price was right. I’m more of a North Shore kind of person. Manly would be my first choice. It’s beachside, has lots of restaurants and things to do, and you can choose the ferry into the city (which is very nice), the bus (which is a piece of sh*t), or driving (see you next week). Cycling is an option; if you don’t mind not having a cycle lane, breathing in the exhaust of 10,000 cars, and playing roulette with your life.

Speaking of buses, they are:
•	Unreliable (my bus was due at 7:45. It’s now 8:30. What about now?)
•	Pricey (there goes my lunch money…for the week)
•	Crowded (I expect to see goats strapped to the roof and people hanging out the windows one day)
•	Inconvenient (your nearest stop is up the hill, around the corner, on the other side of the road)

The ferry, on the other hand, is only expensive (and somewhat unreliable). But it certainly is a nice way to commute. Don’t take my word on the buses though. Do a Google search on “Sydney buses” and you will find millions of other people who hate it, too. “So why get the bus then?” you might ask. Because driving is an even worse proposition. Finding parking in Sydney city is the main challenge. What little there is costs an absolute fortune. Prepare to fork out $150+ per week (more like $200). Do I eat or do I pay parking? “But surely there are transit lanes to speed things along?” I hear you say. Yes, there certainly are transit and commuter lanes. If only they connected to each other. Bus & commuter lanes deliver diminishing returns when you have to merge in and out of the gridlock because they don’t connect. It’s a result of 50 years of virtually no urban planning.

While I am ranting about, it occurred to me that some people from the USA might be…shall we say…”non-white”. Australians pay lip service to racial equality – particularly with the indigenous people (the Aboriginal people). Don’t believe the message of equality. The treatment of the Aboriginal people by the government and greater society makes apartheid look congenial. It’s the Great Australian Shame. In general, the less white you are, the more roadblocks you will encounter. Being American mitigates this somewhat. I’ve worked all around town and the worst industry for minorities – ironically - is the legal sector. This is among the legal staff (non-legal staff is a better mix). Apparently lawyers don’t like color in the mix. Probably because the senior partners are all old farts from the days of “white Australia”.

Anyway, part of the reason for the “whiteness” is that a vast majority of the Australian population IS white, so it’s largely about the about raw numbers. Part of the reason is that Australia had a white-only immigration policy as recently as the early 80’s. It’s true. And part of the reason is that Australians – like people everywhere – shy away from people who are different from themselves. On the plus side, Sydney-siders (as people in Sydney are called) openly embrace the gay community. The Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras is proof of this. So, in summary, Australians are somewhat racist but not overtly homophobic. 

Before I close off this rant, I want to revisit buying a house. One aspect of home ownership in the US is that you can deduct your mortgage interest. In Sydney, this would be a blessing as I pay about $50,000 per year in mortgage interest. You are afforded no such luxury in Australia. Your mortgage interest is payable off your NET income. Effectively, it’s triple-taxation. Your gross income is taxed by the government, your net income is taxed by the bank (via interest), and the obscene profits generated from this are taxed again by the government. The upside is that there are no capital gains taxes on your primary residence. That means you can profit $1million and not pay a cent in tax. People have. This is a big reason housing is oppressively expensive in Sydney (all of Australia actually). But to be fair, you get a generous tax exemption from the IRS of $250,000 per person ($500k jointly). However, the life has been squeezed out of real estate profits in Australia so the days of million-dollar returns are over. This makes the non-capital gains tax a moot point when compared to US taxation. Oh, I should also mention that locking your loan in at 4% for 30 years doesn't exist in Australia. The longest lock-in period I have seen is 10 years. And forget ultra-low interest rates. You are looking at 7% (or more). The banking sector is dominate by 4 big banks. The "Big 4" as they are called. This is where the collusive duopolies really do their damage. As a matter of fact, the banks wield such market power they can price interest rates independently of the central bank (the RBA) with no fear of competition. That doesn't happen in the States.

The “challenges” of living in Sydney have fully killed off any of the perceived benefits. When you have to wade through sh*t 5 days a week to enjoy a Sunday afternoon at the beach, it becomes not worth it. Better to live somewhere reasonable and spend three weeks on holiday in Thailand/Mexico.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

ExpatJimmy said:


> These are decent options. But don't forget the three cardinal rules in real estate: 1) location, 2) location, 3) location. Maroubra is kind of like the "tracks". North of the tracks = good. South of the tracks = not so good. I personally wouldn't live in Malabar. Coogee, yes. Maroubra, maybe - if the price was right. I&#146;m more of a North Shore kind of person. Manly would be my first choice. It&#146;s beachside, has lots of restaurants and things to do, and you can choose the ferry into the city (which is very nice), the bus (which is a piece of sh*t), or driving (see you next week). Cycling is an option; if you don&#146;t mind not having a cycle lane, breathing in the exhaust of 10,000 cars, and playing roulette with your life.
> 
> Speaking of buses, they are:
> &#149;	Unreliable (my bus was due at 7:45. It&#146;s now 8:30. What about now?)
> ...


On a similar topic do you know if you can borrow money to invest in the market and then write the interest off as a tax deduction ? The reason I ask is in Canada your mortgage isn't tax deductible either and the way around it is something called the smith maneuver and I was just wondering if Australia can write off the interest on a loan.


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

You can do something similar. It’s called “negative gearing”. In the past, investors have taken out interest-only loans, rented out the property at a loss (mainly because the rental market can’t/won’t bear the full cost) and then offset the losses as tax deductions. AFAIK , there is no limit to the losses you can claim. It can be $1 million. This is unique in the world I believe. Further explaining grotesque property prices. Since the loan is interest-only, you are effectively offsetting a good portion of the loan. The idea to this is that any price appreciation will make up for the lack of principal going into the loan. This hasn’t really worked for about a decade since all the big gains happened in the late 90’s. But do note you CANNOT deduct the full interest amount – only on your losses (and expenses, of which interest is not considered an expense). So, it seems the situation is even more unfriendly here than in Canada. This is a main reason there is a rental shortage nation-wide. It’s no longer tax-effective to invest and prices are not appreciating fast enough. 

You should also be aware that since the global financial crisis, banks here have really tightened their lending criteria. You read about it in the news and it doesn’t faze you…until you apply for a loan. If you don’t have a loan-value-ratio (LVR) of 50% or less (i.e. you are putting in more of your own money), the banks will turn you away. The situation is friendlier if you are borrowing for your own home but you really still need an LVR at least 90% currently. In Sydney, a down payment for a 90% LVR can easily be $50k. You can always borrow under the guise of living in the home and then rent it out after a year or something. However, the banks fully reserve the right to adjust your LVR if they get a whiff of something not right and there is nothing you can do about it except pay or liquidate. The banks here are real f*ckwads – even more than usual. It’s because the collusive Big 4 own over 80% of the mortgage market. They can (and do) whatever, whenever, wherever and to whomever they please. Even easier to f*ck over a non-citizen with fewer rights. Don't forget to add stamp duty, mortgage insurance, and various other charges to your transaction. Plus, there are extra annual taxes for investment properties (in some states). In Sydney, buying a one-bed apartment for an investment can easily cost you $200k in transaction expenses. All to claim a loss of a few thousand per year and wait a decade for any significant appreciation. You're money is better off sitting in one of the Australian banks collecting interest. The only good thing about these bloodsuckers is that they are paying pretty decent interest rates right now.

Honestly, as a Canadian with a strong dollar, you want to consider buying an investment in the US. The Australian property market has reached its full potential and is likely to stagnate or slowly deflate over the next decade. You will be double-screwed if the AUD/CAD currencies move in different directions. Personally, I’m trying to get out of the Aussie market as fast as I can. I may be too late already.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

ExpatJimmy said:


> You can do something similar. It&#146;s called &#147;negative gearing&#148;. In the past, investors have taken out interest-only loans, rented out the property at a loss (mainly because the rental market can&#146;t/won&#146;t bear the full cost) and then offset the losses as tax deductions. AFAIK , there is no limit to the losses you can claim. It can be $1 million. This is unique in the world I believe. Further explaining grotesque property prices. Since the loan is interest-only, you are effectively offsetting a good portion of the loan. The idea to this is that any price appreciation will make up for the lack of principal going into the loan. This hasn&#146;t really worked for about a decade since all the big gains happened in the late 90&#146;s. But do note you CANNOT deduct the full interest amount &#150; only on your losses (and expenses, of which interest is not considered an expense). So, it seems the situation is even more unfriendly here than in Canada. This is a main reason there is a rental shortage nation-wide. It&#146;s no longer tax-effective to invest and prices are not appreciating fast enough.
> 
> You should also be aware that since the global financial crisis, banks here have really tightened their lending criteria. You read about it in the news and it doesn&#146;t faze you&#133;until you apply for a loan. If you don&#146;t have a loan-value-ratio (LVR) of 50% or less (i.e. you are putting in more of your own money), the banks will turn you away. The situation is friendlier if you are borrowing for your own home but you really still need an LVR at least 90% currently. In Sydney, a down payment for a 90% LVR can easily be $50k. You can always borrow under the guise of living in the home and then rent it out after a year or something. However, the banks fully reserve the right to adjust your LVR if they get a whiff of something not right and there is nothing you can do about it except pay or liquidate. The banks here are real f*ckwads &#150; even more than usual. It&#146;s because the collusive Big 4 own over 80% of the mortgage market. They can (and do) whatever, whenever, wherever and to whomever they please. Even easier to f*ck over a non-citizen with fewer rights. Don't forget to add stamp duty, mortgage insurance, and various other charges to your transaction. Plus, there are extra annual taxes for investment properties (in some states). In Sydney, buying a one-bed apartment for an investment can easily cost you $200k in transaction expenses. All to claim a loss of a few thousand per year and wait a decade for any significant appreciation. You're money is better off sitting in one of the Australian banks collecting interest. The only good thing about these bloodsuckers is that they are paying pretty decent interest rates right now.
> 
> Honestly, as a Canadian with a strong dollar, you want to consider buying an investment in the US. The Australian property market has reached its full potential and is likely to stagnate or slowly deflate over the next decade. You will be double-screwed if the AUD/CAD currencies move in different directions. Personally, I&#146;m trying to get out of the Aussie market as fast as I can. I may be too late already.


Great thanks for the info. When you moving back to the states ?


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

Alan H said:


> Great thanks for the info. When you moving back to the states ?


As soon as I can sell my house to some poor soul. Targeting March/April 2012.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

ExpatJimmy said:


> As soon as I can sell my house to some poor soul. Targeting March/April 2012.


Well good luck


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## onlyassignments (Aug 22, 2011)

You guys are scaring me.


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

onlyassignments said:


> You guys are scaring me.


In what way? I pull no punches about Sydney. The beaches are world class and the weather is very mild. The city itself it fairly mediocre and the cost of living isn't worth what you get out of it. But that's my opinion.

The interesting thing is that Sydney consistently ranks in the top 10 (lately the top 5) places to live in the world. I'm certain the people who do these rankings have never lived in the cities they score. They need to include a "daily bull****" score to balance it out.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

onlyassignments said:


> You guys are scaring me.


While Jimmy is very detailed in his answer he obviosly is very one sided for the most part.
I'm sure if someone that absolutely loves Sydney would be the other way on this.

Sydney is a great to live in I spent 2 years there many years back, I think the weather is warm there but of course that is subjective..

I like Jimmy's response because it is pretty much as negative as it gets and as long as you know that there are a lot of great things about Sydney then this is very good information as well.

Don't be scared by what he says just read it and take it with a grain of salt.

Alan


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## onlyassignments (Aug 22, 2011)

Thank you all for your response.It seems like Australia is more favored by Europeans than people from American sub continent. even in USA, cost of living will be very different in NYC than Nashville, but some of the prices do seem very high even by NYC standards. I am more concerned about racism and job opportunities.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

onlyassignments said:


> Thank you all for your response.It seems like Australia is more favored by Europeans than people from American sub continent. even in USA, cost of living will be very different in NYC than Nashville, but some of the prices do seem very high even by NYC standards. I am more concerned about racism and job opportunities.


Well I'm from America. More to the point Canada
Yes prices are more than most places but like what most people say, you will live to your means.

On the racism front I wouldn't say it was rampant but I would definitely say it's there to some degree. I never met anyone that was entirely racist however there are off handed comments that being from a smelting pot like Vancouver did raise my eye brow a bit. In general Aussies are very VERY nice people and remind me a lot like Canadians, I think they are probably overall a little more basic and more "village" but I think that is a good thing because you meet more honestly friendly people.

Alan.


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

It's true, I am very negative about Sydney. I used to love it here - especially during the first few years. This is when I didn't have many responsibilities or obligations. But then I wanted to start doing "normal" things like buy a house, save for a holiday, get a decent car. When the luster of a new locale wears off, you are left with the day-to-day activities of normal life. You will find Sydney is very hostile financially if you aren't earning very good money. I've been in Sydney 10 years and I AM an authority on the subject. The opinions of people who have only lived in Sydney for a couple of years really don't count for much, I'm afraid.

As for jobs, there are plenty. Most pay comparatively well to similar work you might do elsewhere. But you definitely need more because you will pay more. Lots more. Regarding racism, if you don't speak English fluently you will struggle more. If you aren't white, you will struggle more. Aussies aren't racially hostile, but you WILL be treated differently (not always "good" differently either).

If your plan is to come to Sydney, live in a dinky apartment, enjoy the weather, go to the beach and get some decent work experience, then it's certainly a great place to be. But if your plan is to come here to "live the Australian dream", you will have a hell of a hard time.


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## Alan H (Nov 9, 2011)

ExpatJimmy said:


> It's true, I am very negative about Sydney. I used to love it here - especially during the first few years. This is when I didn't have many responsibilities or obligations. But then I wanted to start doing "normal" things like buy a house, save for a holiday, get a decent car. When the luster of a new locale wears off, you are left with the day-to-day activities of normal life. You will find Sydney is very hostile financially if you aren't earning very good money. I've been in Sydney 10 years and I AM an authority on the subject. The opinions of people who have only lived in Sydney for a couple of years really don't count for much, I'm afraid.
> 
> As for jobs, there are plenty. Most pay comparatively well to similar work you might do elsewhere. But you definitely need more because you will pay more. Lots more. Regarding racism, if you don't speak English fluently you will struggle more. If you aren't white, you will struggle more. Aussies aren't racially hostile, but you WILL be treated differently (not always "good" differently either).
> 
> If your plan is to come to Sydney, live in a dinky apartment, enjoy the weather, go to the beach and get some decent work experience, then it's certainly a great place to be. But if your plan is to come here to "live the Australian dream", you will have a hell of a hard time.


While I may not have lived in Australia for 10 years like you I lived there for 4 years and that pretty much after a couple of years the "newness" wore off and I still think it's a great country to live in with good people and great environment and a bunch of amazing cities. 

Even though you have bene here 10 years I don't think you have the "Australian dream" correct. Australians and people that migrate here come here to "Work to live" not "Live to work" and I think your mixing the "Australian dream" perhaps with the "American Dream" which IS "live to work".

Your entitled to your opinion for sure and I think you have it right why most people immigrate to Australia "live in an apartment, enjoy the weather, go to the beach and get some decent work experience"

Alan.


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## Aussiejock (May 26, 2007)

ExpatJimmy said:


> It's true, I am very negative about Sydney. I used to love it here - especially during the first few years. This is when I didn't have many responsibilities or obligations. But then I wanted to start doing "normal" things like buy a house, save for a holiday, get a decent car. When the luster of a new locale wears off, you are left with the day-to-day activities of normal life. You will find Sydney is very hostile financially if you aren't earning very good money. I've been in Sydney 10 years and I AM an authority on the subject. The opinions of people who have only lived in Sydney for a couple of years really don't count for much, I'm afraid.
> 
> As for jobs, there are plenty. Most pay comparatively well to similar work you might do elsewhere. But you definitely need more because you will pay more. Lots more. Regarding racism, if you don't speak English fluently you will struggle more. If you aren't white, you will struggle more. Aussies aren't racially hostile, but you WILL be treated differently (not always "good" differently either).
> 
> If your plan is to come to Sydney, live in a dinky apartment, enjoy the weather, go to the beach and get some decent work experience, then it's certainly a great place to be. But if your plan is to come here to "live the Australian dream", you will have a hell of a hard time.


I guess I must be more of an authority than you as I have lived here for 45 years and find your posts to be a gross exaggeration of what life is like in the Sydney Metropolitan area.
Things can be very expensive if you don't know where to shop. In ten years you haven't, apparently, taken the trouble to find out where the best places are. Cost of housing has risen dramatically in the last 10 years but you will have no trouble getting finance if you have a salary to cover repayments. 
As far as racism is concerned: Australians, on the whole, treat everyone the same. It is the kind of person you are that counts not the colour of your skin or how well you can speak English. I will not comment on what you said about the treatment of Aborigines except to say that you are obviously quite ignorant about that subject.
I don't care how you feel about Australia, but I do object to you making statements, which appear as statements of fact rather than simply your opinion.


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## renski (Apr 7, 2009)

Things aren't expensive at all if you shop online in the US. 

But yeah, if you go down to the supermarket it's more expensive sure, but the quality (and standard) of food is MUCH higher here.

One of the things that urks me about Sydney is the limited number of "nice" areas. Anything on the north shore and northern beaches is nice, and probably the same could be said for the south east of Sydney. Greater Western sydney generally speaking is a hole. In the summer it's brutal! The nicer areas of Sydney are far too expensive to live in. This is the problem with Sydney. In the US, the nice, and even slightly less nicer areas, are 3-4x less expensive.

It doesn't help that property is massively overvalued here.


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## Johnfromoz (Oct 20, 2010)

I have lived in Australia for over 20 years and totally disagree with the person who has lived here for merely 10 and yet claims to be an authority on everything. 

Living costs are not as bad as some people think. I live in Sydney, 18kms from the cbd and houses cost here between $350 and $500 per week. Apartments or granny flats can be had for $250. Petrol costs $1.25-$1.35. Milk costs $1/litre, bread costs as much for a loaf. Chicken fillet costs $7/kg, drumsticks and thighs can be had for $2/kg. Steak and pork chops can be had for $7/kg. Prawns cost from $10/kg. Wages start from $20/hour which is pretty much minimal wage.


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## louisebcfc1 (Jun 11, 2011)

Hi 
I agree with jimmy. I am from the uk but I have lived in Sydney for 6 years. 6 years ago, petrol was cheap, food was cheap, everything was cheap! Now things have got out of control! Unless your bringing in a combined income of $300k you can forget finding a deposit on a home. A basic 3 or 4 bed with no garden, parking etc will set u back about $1.5 in the eastern suburbs. We have a baby daughter who is now 1 and we r looking to move home next year. It's sad when you can't buy a house for less than a million, child care is over $2k a month and with no family to spend weekends with it all becomes a bit mundane and question what us the point!! I absolutely agree that Sydney is a fantastic city - I work at circular quay and my office looks over the opera horse n harbour bridge and everyday I think how lucky I am to work in such a beautiful city! But when every penny goes to cost of living and there don't seem to be any relief in sight for increasing costs, we have been having second thoughts. Better quality of life - is this sun sea sand - no family and living in a cramped apt, or rain, cold not so beautiful uk surrounded by family and friends and where we can buy a beautiful home for our family.


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## louisebcfc1 (Jun 11, 2011)

One last thing about racism. I find Australia to be the most racist country I have ever lived in. I am white British and speak English but I have been thrown a few comments my way a few times which if someone ever said the same in th uk they won never get away with it. It os quite appalling and i think what makes it worse is that the Australians DON'T think they are being racist. It's incredible. 

I was in anz bank a few years ago trying to set up a new account and I was told that Australian customers were to be seen first and that I had to wait until the queue had cleared before I would be served. I was young and nieve at the time but if that were to happen now I would not have been to passive about the 'rules' ! Disgrace.


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## ExpatJimmy (Nov 29, 2011)

I think there must be some confusion here. I am not anti-Australian, I am anti-Sydney. Get it straight. That said, treatment of the Aborignal people is abhorrent. Anyone who says otherwise is happily ignoring thr fact. Try asking an Aborigine if they think they are getting a fair shake. Go on, I double dare you.

But anyway, to the people who have lived here 20 & 45 years...of course it's not a problem for you. You were living here when it was reasonably affordable. Probably bought that 3-bedder for $150k which has increased 5x in value. Your opinion counts for very little to all the new folk wanting to get into Sydney. Quite frankly, you are part of the problem for all of us newbies. BTW, 18km is not close. In cities with good infrastructure (roads & rail) it's no problem. In Sydney...well....it might as well be the moon. That 18k can take anywhere between 60-90 minutes during a fairly typical morning commute (depending on which underserviced part of town you live in). Aussies may not "live to work" but when you add in the combined 2-3 hours of commuting per day, it sure feels like it.

In closing - and this will be my last post - I am certain the people in Sydney who don't seem to have a problem with living here simply don't know any better. Every city has redeeming qualities. Sydney has its beaches and weather. But that's where it ends. The rest is just an expensive morass.

Anyone who does decide to try and make a life here, well, good luck to you. Perhaps you will be the lucky 1%.


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## Johnfromoz (Oct 20, 2010)

It seems that foreigners bagging Australia, its people and Sydney, are the ones who want to live in the most expensive suburbs of Sydney for next to nothing. Manly, Northern Beaches, Bondi, Coogee, Maroubra etc. are for tourists and beachbums. Family people don´t live in these areas. 10 kms from the cbd is an exclusion zone for families, unless you are filthy rich. Family areas start south from Rockdale, west of Strathfield, north of Chatswood etc. Average Aussies with families live mainly in The Hills district, North Shore or St. George area. 

I came to Australia with $50 in my pocket, with no friends or relatives to greet me. I went on to study at university, graduated and worked my way up to buy a couple of pieces of real estate. And the house did not cost me $150K as someone suggested but triple that. Yes, I worked my a*s off but I had set goals for myself and achieved them. I did not whinge and complain. 

On the topic of racism, I am yet to meet more tolerant people than Aussies. Current government has opened floodgates to hords of people who claim to be refugees and yet they have tens of thousands of dollars to buy their way across half the world to Australia. A lot of these people have turned many suburbs of Sydney into ghettoes where even police are afraid to patrol at night. Aussies have been forced out of these suburbs, which they have called home for many decades and move to other areas. Yet, they do it quietly and without complaining.

The ones accusing Aussies of intolerance against aborigines have probably never been west of the Blue Mountains and have no idea what goes on in towns where aborigines are the majority. Try stopping your car, say in Wilcannia, and you´ll have your windows smashed in a few minutes by local hoodlums of indigenous background. I doubt very much that victim of such an attack would have any praise for the attackers. It has nothing to do with hate against the indigenous people but criminals on rampage.


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## brepag1975 (Sep 11, 2012)

Alan H said:


> Hi Adam
> Triend sending you a PM but because you don't have enough posts it blocked it.
> What is your email address and I will send you an email
> 
> Alan.


hi,
i was just wondering if the IT industry is still going well in sydney, as i am thinking of moving myself, im hoping the company i work for will sponser a relocation but if not then im on my own, so any advice would be welcome.

B.


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