# So much for democracy!!!



## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

BBC News - Egyptians celebrate but military starts talking tough


And whilst I understand the logic behind it......


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## MensEtManus (Jul 30, 2009)

The weekly schedule is:
Saturday to Thursday: Strikes
Friday: Celebrations / New Protesters 


On a serious note, As a food & beverage manufacturer since Jan 27th, I have yet to distribute anything. The main problem is security. If I do decide to distribute (using company trucks), there is absolutely no guarantee that the goods, the truck, or even the payment will be returned to the factory. In the past, the guarantee was the police as drivers, and road thieves were petrified from the police force. Nowadays, it seems that the police force is afraid from the regular citizens.

Today, I am the proud owner not of manufacturing facilities, but of workers and administration. I am fed up with all the strikes and protesting. The environment to conduct business has no protection by the government. Democracy can only exist with the pillar of security, how can one achieve liberty, justice, and pursuit of happiness when at any given time you are at risk from being attacked. 

I am posting online in the afternoon, I guess I am bored..... I need a hobby


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

MensEtManus said:


> The weekly schedule is:
> Saturday to Thursday: Strikes
> Friday: Celebrations / New Protesters
> 
> ...




I fully understand your point of view as I do that of the military and the people.


You want a hobby? Come to me and join in with my wii Fit that has me out of breath


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

Quote from an audio recording which appeared to have been recorded before the resignation of President Mubarak, _"reality of Egypt" was one of "ideological, political, economic, financial, moral and social corruption".
Mr Mubarak's rule was based on violence and fraudulent elections, in contrast with an Islamic state which would focus on morals, justice and equality._

Here we are again, al-Qaeda's number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri trying to justify himself from the achievements of Egypt's Youth. Please, please April 6th Movement do not allow these factions with ulterior motives, to undo all your efforts for freedom.


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## marenostrum (Feb 19, 2011)

Eco-Mariner said:


> Quote from an audio recording which appeared to have been recorded before the resignation of President Mubarak, _"reality of Egypt" was one of "ideological, political, economic, financial, moral and social corruption".
> Mr Mubarak's rule was based on violence and fraudulent elections, in contrast with an Islamic state which would focus on morals, justice and equality._
> 
> Here we are again, al-Qaeda's number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri trying to justify himself from the achievements of Egypt's Youth. Please, please April 6th Movement do not allow these factions with ulterior motives, to undo all your efforts for freedom.


Hello Mariner,

Are you surprised?

The old regime had to go but imho they ain't gonna get a better one. The first signs are bad, same old people in the public service here, army (tantawy was Mou's n1 puppet) etc etc

I hope i am wrong.


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

Step by Step my friend.

The overall population will not give up this freedom now. The elections must be free and fair then we will see how the country starts to try democracy for the first time. 
350 people died for this, maybe more if the masses do not see a better life from their efforts. 

Alan.


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## bat (Dec 1, 2010)

Eco-Mariner said:


> Step by Step my friend.
> 
> The overall population will not give up this freedom now. The elections must be free and fair then we will see how the country starts to try democracy for the first time.
> 350 people died for this, maybe more if the masses do not see a better life from their efforts.
> ...


ok think i might be out on a limb with this one, but here goes.(i hope im way off the mark)
the army who kept him in power, knew that his time was limited(83, how much longer can he last)his son set to succeed,his son not army.along came the revolution, great gets rid of him and son in one fell swoop.do a bit of reshuffling of the deck, but the army still in power and come out smelling of roses.
so who in the army is waiting in the wings for the elections,6 months time,whose going to be ready to fight these elections.if the army keeps its nose clean,who ever stands will be swept into power.throw a few crumbs, to keep every one thinking democracy.
then carry on as before,but this time dont get to greedy.
ok shoot me
bat


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

bat said:


> ok think i might be out on a limb with this one, but here goes.(i hope im way off the mark)
> the army who kept him in power, knew that his time was limited(83, how much longer can he last)his son set to succeed,his son not army.along came the revolution, great gets rid of him and son in one fell swoop.do a bit of reshuffling of the deck, but the army still in power and come out smelling of roses.
> so who in the army is waiting in the wings for the elections,6 months time,whose going to be ready to fight these elections.if the army keeps its nose clean,who ever stands will be swept into power.throw a few crumbs, to keep every one thinking democracy.
> then carry on as before,but this time dont get to greedy.
> ...




Yes have to agree with you to a certain extent as the army was the power behind the throne and as soon as the people said they would not tolerate Mubarak any longer despite his concessions the army got rid of him. The army big wigs are rich and this did not come from an army salary so yes there was/is bribery in arms deals and just remember where the army big where the day the protests started. I do not believe that anyone from the armed forces will stand for elections as why would they? They have the power and the money whilst still being the good guys. America has a lot to answer for as they helped keep Mubarak in power and the army sweet by supplying arms. Israel/oil/Suez canal are the only reasons that America and the west is interested in this country. 

On another note... the only policeman I have seen since my return was an off duty one carrying his beret, where are they? I live on a very busy street with junctions on to the bridge and there are usually lots of police about.


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## MensEtManus (Jul 30, 2009)

Thanks MS


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## bat (Dec 1, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes have to agree with you to a certain extent as the army was the power behind the throne and as soon as the people said they would not tolerate Mubarak any longer despite his concessions the army got rid of him. The army big wigs are rich and this did not come from an army salary so yes there was/is bribery in arms deals and just remember where the army big where the day the protests started. I do not believe that anyone from the armed forces will stand for elections as why would they? They have the power and the money whilst still being the good guys. America has a lot to answer for as they helped keep Mubarak in power and the army sweet by supplying arms. Israel/oil/Suez canal are the only reasons that America and the west is interested in this country.
> 
> On another note... the only policeman I have seen since my return was an off duty one carrying his beret, where are they? I live on a very busy street with junctions on to the bridge and there are usually lots of police about.


wondering about that my self,
they say that the brits are the tail of the american dog well were the police the tail of the army and the army stopped wagging .
its interesting to note that all the rest of the middle east,both working more or less together,
when i say army all these ex army are they really ever ex is ex police ever really ex


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## marenostrum (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree with bat's view. Too much corruption at the middle high level here.
The few building sites that I know of have reopened and they are the ones where the general's villas are being built.....

Don't trust this tantwai guy either, he is rotten to the core.


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

I watched a discussion with a panel of well educated protestors on Al Jazeera, who clearly stated that any new dictatorship will be met with more organised mass protests in the future. They believe the 21st century man is well armed with technology. The pen being mightier than the sword.

So any armed forces top-brass official willing to risk his pension could go ahead and try, the youth movement stated "our actions and strikes got rid of Mubarak and his son, so we can do it again to anyone trying the same who will not give our people what we really want."

Regarding the US and oil. What the region requires is stability. If the Army's role is to protect the borders, the country's trading position (Suez Canal etc.) and it's people, surely wealth generated from a stable government aligned to the people will keep the Army in the manner it has made for itself.

Regarding freedom.... That can only come from feeling secure. Secure from a proper, uncorrupt Police Force, devoid of a special security force, that protects the citizens, their families and their properties. Trained and trusted to carry out their duties for a fair and proper wage and respected for their role in society.

The problem is, stamping out the bad habits and corrupt practices of many previous generations. The term "Ali Ba Ba and 40 thieves" springs to mind.

Alan.


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## bat (Dec 1, 2010)

Eco-Mariner said:


> I watched a discussion with a panel of well educated protestors on Al Jazeera, who clearly stated that any new dictatorship will be met with more organised mass protests in the future. They believe the 21st century man is well armed with technology. The pen being mightier than the sword.
> 
> So any armed forces top-brass official willing to risk his pension could go ahead and try, the youth movement stated "our actions and strikes got rid of Mubarak and his son, so we can do it again to anyone trying the same who will not give our people what we really want."
> 
> ...


there in lies the problem,there not protecting their pension,thats peanuts they ahve all the stuff they made and still are making on the side. the people now want this shared,
will they do this.
as for stamping out bad habits, what bad habits.
the problem is you can go round and round this problem but in the end its all a waiting game.


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## marenostrum (Feb 19, 2011)

bat said:


> there in lies the problem,there not protecting their pension,thats peanuts they ahve all the stuff they made and still are making on the side. the people now want this shared,
> will they do this.
> as for stamping out bad habits, what bad habits.
> the problem is you can go round and round this problem but in the end its all a waiting game.


tbh i think that many more need to go, not just moubarak. A lot of these individuals are still in the ministries and are ceos in top companies. 
They might show a better side but they are still rotten.
Even Nile tv, up to last week they were blasting the protesters and branding them thugs, now they play this song with the pics of the martyrs every two minutes....


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## bat (Dec 1, 2010)

marenostrum said:


> tbh i think that many more need to go, not just moubarak. A lot of these individuals are still in the ministries and are ceos in top companies.
> They might show a better side but they are still rotten.
> Even Nile tv, up to last week they were blasting the protesters and branding them thugs, now they play this song with the pics of the martyrs every two minutes....[/QUOTE
> so the army have not asked about mubaracks ill gotten gains, wonder why that is.


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

Bat is correct... It's a waiting game.

As seasons change, so will Egypt. I have faith in the youth of today. After all, I was one once.

Alan.


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## MensEtManus (Jul 30, 2009)

The only problem with today's youth is respect - they have no respect or maybe my definition of respect is no longer applicable in 2011... 

Yesterday I saw 3 young protestors with one older gentlemen (from the old party of Mubarak). The older guy had a Phd and was a professor at one of the universities. They talked to him as if they were talking to a loser. regardless of "view/beliefs" there is still something called decency, respect, etc.

I mean we got Republicans and Democrats (millions of them) daily arguing but you don't find them being so barbaric in their communication...


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## DeadGuy (Jan 22, 2010)

Eco-Mariner said:


> I watched a discussion with a panel of well educated protestors on Al Jazeera, who clearly stated that any new dictatorship will be met with more organised mass protests in the future. They believe the 21st century man is well armed with technology. The pen being mightier than the sword.
> .........................



Well it’s the 21st century that’s for sure, but there are people in here who simply still can’t spell their own names!! So it wouldn't be as easy as they tried to put it!

As for the army part that was mentioned by many, Mubarak was only part of the problem, it’s like what they say? “He’s the brains and they’re the muscles”? He ALWAYS chose his cabinet members carefully so they’d be his "muscles", of course they had a share so they wouldn’t give up on that easily (ALL his cabinets were just thugs, except for El Ganzoury’s cabinet, and the guy didn’t last few months!), so for the army to keep the cabinet that was formed by Mubarak’s direct order when they had the chance to pull it out?! That’s something worth looking at if you want my opinion!


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

One member posted that Mubarak kept the youth poorly educated and brainwashed.
That's partly true as they would do his "dirty work" and bullying for a pittance.

The new force to reckon with are the educated youth who can hold a conversation. These too are held in poverty with no jobs. The only way forward is to put their education into making their new found freedom actually work, with the Army protecting them. That means coming to a mutual aggreement, or more strikes and revolts are going to happen. That will further damage the economy the bussinesmen and army rely on.

Who do you think will last out longest?

Alan.


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## egyptiansun (Feb 18, 2011)

Armed drivers. And have your safest stops of delivery distribute as they are locals.

Logistics....


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## lostsheep (Jan 24, 2011)

MensEtManus said:


> I mean we got Republicans and Democrats (millions of them) daily arguing but you don't find them being so barbaric in their communication...


Been back in the U.S. anytime lately? Perhaps not quite barbaric but not far from it.

Who knows what will happen in Egypt really? Only seems natural they will have there ups and downs over the coming years. Hopefully two steps forward and one back(not vice-versa).

Eco-Mariner is right in that it will be the youth that shape the coming future. Hopefully they will have the foresight to see through most of the b.s. that will be thrown at them. Really it's about creating a strong constitution that will respect all individual rights regardless of religion, political affiliation, and so on. It's going to be a long arduous process. 

I am probably one of the most cynical people around but don't underestimate how technology is changing today's world. In particular the political world.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

egyptiansun said:


> Armed drivers. And have your safest stops of delivery distribute as they are locals.
> 
> Logistics....




I would think that Men would know the best way to have his deliveries done.. has has lived here for 30 years...


Maiden


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## Eco-Mariner (Jan 26, 2011)

lostsheep said:


> Who knows what will happen in Egypt really? Only seems natural they will have there ups and downs over the coming years. Hopefully two steps forward and one back(not vice-versa).
> 
> Eco-Mariner is right in that it will be the youth that shape the coming future. Hopefully they will have the foresight to see through most of the b.s. that will be thrown at them. Really it's about creating a strong constitution that will respect all individual rights regardless of religion, political affiliation, and so on. It's going to be a long arduous process.
> 
> I am probably one of the most cynical people around but don't underestimate how technology is changing today's world. In particular the political world.


You're not the only cynic my friend. The regime has made me that way but I do have faith in a majority coalition party that the youth and not the "old guard" Egypt will hopefully elect.

My concern is not about their ability but about having a fair election process. We know only too well how the ballot box can be fixed. Egypt needs more than a UN watchdog to monitor all the polling stations. All the African and Arab Union peace keeping nations should have a mandate to be on the ground in 6 months time to stop fraud and vote rigging.

It can be done.... It must be done so that a true and responsible government is genuinely voted in, or the country will never be stable.

The youth of Egypt and Arabia saw how they could shape their own destinies in one revolutionary movement. Egypt, as the role model for African democracy is now firmly in their grasp. I'm passionate about Egypt and the Red Sea. I hope it's two steps forward and none back and that they don't lose their passion in the long haul. 

Alan.


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