# To buy or not to buy



## Cdn-Wana-B-Expat (Jan 17, 2009)

I’m fifty years old and we are five to nine years from retirement. Married for the second time five years ago. Me and the wife are on a mission to spend six months a year in Puerto Vallarta or surrounding area. Our preference would be a small Mexican house in a Mexican neighborhood rather than a Condo or gated community. We say that because we’d really just prefer to mingle with the locals. Don’t get me wrong, there’s always a local cantina filled with Expat’s somewhere to be found if you’re feeling culturally homesick. We like our own people, but we like Mexicans too.

We are middle income folks from central Canada, who for the past five years have been vacationing in Puerto Vallarta. The last two of those years we have been looking at property in the area. We’ve seen quite a few little places in and around the P.V. area. We have gone as far away as La Panita, which thus far has been my favorite location. The value of the properties we’ve been looking at is around $60,000.00 to $75,000.00 USD. These are not exquisite Swiss villas or quaint Cape Coders etc.... just your average almost ready to move into, in need of some sweat equity domiciles. These are fine for us, it will give me something to do with all the time off.

The problem we’ve had to face is the security of our home away from home. Most if not all have said when you get back to your casa, don’t expect to find what belongings you left behind to be there. I have countered with we will have a property manager look after the place. Most come-backs are, the locals will learn the monitoring periods and then take all chattels when the time is right. As we won’t live there for the six month periods until we retire this is presenting a major dilemma. We are at the point where we will expand our vacation time from the two weeks to three. Within a year or so up to four weeks. The thought of renting a place for six months at a time comes and goes. I’m a handyman and I love doing that, so buying a place that needs a handyman’s touch is a good thing for me. My wife could sit around and soak up the sun till the cows come home. Me doing this would drive me nuts, so a rental would not work for me. 

Is it as bleak as all have said? I have always thought I could find a local who could use a break. Someone that could keep an eye one the place when you’re not there for a wage of course. A person willing to do the house keeping when we are not there. When we do get there take some time off for themselves etc...

Are we looking at this the wrong way? In the end, what we’d like to is this Leave Canada around the end of November for six months. Head down to our little casa, enjoy the culture of our local neighbors’. Find it just as we left it, the wife soaks up the sun, I lay down some ceramic tile. Spin a few margaritas head back home for six month and repeat again and again...

I await your input

Des


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It sounds like an excellent plan if you find the right neighborhood. Yes, you will have to make the home very secure, if you are to leave it vacant, but you will also need a maid and/or gardener to maintain it when you are away. Knowing and respecting your neighbors will go a very long way toward your happiness and security of the home, but don't expect to ever be 'absorbed' into the local community entirely; we are culturally different and some distance is maintained by most locals. Those who do invite you to private functions will be rare and are to be treasured.


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## CDN Dreamer (Jan 18, 2009)

Hello Dez,
We are one step ahead of you and have bought a place in Mexico. We used to go to PV all the time but then tried out Acapulco and fell in love with the city. The real estate is less expensive, it is much better located for travel within Mexico, the nights are a little warmer so swimming pools are more comfortable and it is closer to a Mexican experience. As far as theft goes, if you are within the city I can't imagine too much difficulty if you have a property manager. We have not had any problems. We are also a few years from being able to spend 6 months in Mexico as we are also 50 years old. The real estate market has been affected by the market downturn so this is the time to buy.



Cdn-Wana-B-Expat said:


> I’m fifty years old and we are five to nine years from retirement. Married for the second time five years ago. Me and the wife are on a mission to spend six months a year in Puerto Vallarta or surrounding area. Our preference would be a small Mexican house in a Mexican neighborhood rather than a Condo or gated community. We say that because we’d really just prefer to mingle with the locals. Don’t get me wrong, there’s always a local cantina filled with Expat’s somewhere to be found if you’re feeling culturally homesick. We like our own people, but we like Mexicans too.
> 
> We are middle income folks from central Canada, who for the past five years have been vacationing in Puerto Vallarta. The last two of those years we have been looking at property in the area. We’ve seen quite a few little places in and around the P.V. area. We have gone as far away as La Panita, which thus far has been my favorite location. The value of the properties we’ve been looking at is around $60,000.00 to $75,000.00 USD. These are not exquisite Swiss villas or quaint Cape Coders etc.... just your average almost ready to move into, in need of some sweat equity domiciles. These are fine for us, it will give me something to do with all the time off.
> 
> ...


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## wendyl (Jan 24, 2009)

*theft of belongings*



Cdn-Wana-B-Expat said:


> I’m fifty years old and we are five to nine years from retirement. Married for the second time five years ago. Me and the wife are on a mission to spend six months a year in Puerto Vallarta or surrounding area. Our preference would be a small Mexican house in a Mexican neighborhood rather than a Condo or gated community. We say that because we’d really just prefer to mingle with the locals. Don’t get me wrong, there’s always a local cantina filled with Expat’s somewhere to be found if you’re feeling culturally homesick. We like our own people, but we like Mexicans too.
> 
> We are middle income folks from central Canada, who for the past five years have been vacationing in Puerto Vallarta. The last two of those years we have been looking at property in the area. We’ve seen quite a few little places in and around the P.V. area. We have gone as far away as La Panita, which thus far has been my favorite location. The value of the properties we’ve been looking at is around $60,000.00 to $75,000.00 USD. These are not exquisite Swiss villas or quaint Cape Coders etc.... just your average almost ready to move into, in need of some sweat equity domiciles. These are fine for us, it will give me something to do with all the time off.
> 
> ...


interesting story...we are in Leon and away from the tourist areas. If we want the beach we drive the 5 hours to a beach for the weekend. Leon is economically very sound. land is reasonable and homes are gorgious.
EVERYONE has a maid here..60 dollars a week, and people come and go all the time. gated communities are common and even without a gated community you can feel quite safe and secure. This is a modern city with all amenities and medical needs.

I know of a housing complex, executive homes, 10 minutes out of leon for 160,000. it is a new complex being built. they are now building a swimming pool for the complex.

the land since last year has increased 25% in the area. there is a golf course right next door

Is the water you like or is it Mexico and the weather?
BUYING titled land is complex 100 k from the water. foriegners not allowed to own title.
not so inland.

tourist areas are hit hard...crime and such

if you can buy for 75, 000 that is great...fixing up is a pain though.

good luck


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

I've always felt that condos or apartments are more secure, just because it is harder to tell when they are empty.


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## wendyl (Jan 24, 2009)

*condos vs house*



synthia said:


> I've always felt that condos or apartments are more secure, just because it is harder to tell when they are empty.


Hello
The houses are beautiful here. and secure.
My kids and grandkids live here and I have been coming for years, we do not lock our doors even


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Cdn-Wana-B-Expat said:


> I’m fifty years old and we are five to nine years from retirement. Married for the second time five years ago. Me and the wife are on a mission to spend six months a year in Puerto Vallarta or surrounding area. Our preference would be a small Mexican house in a Mexican neighborhood rather than a Condo or gated community. We say that because we’d really just prefer to mingle with the locals. Don’t get me wrong, there’s always a local cantina filled with Expat’s somewhere to be found if you’re feeling culturally homesick. We like our own people, but we like Mexicans too.
> 
> We are middle income folks from central Canada, who for the past five years have been vacationing in Puerto Vallarta. The last two of those years we have been looking at property in the area. We’ve seen quite a few little places in and around the P.V. area. We have gone as far away as La Panita, which thus far has been my favorite location. The value of the properties we’ve been looking at is around $60,000.00 to $75,000.00 USD. These are not exquisite Swiss villas or quaint Cape Coders etc.... just your average almost ready to move into, in need of some sweat equity domiciles. These are fine for us, it will give me something to do with all the time off.
> 
> ...




Why don´t you rent for the next couple (at least) of seasons and explore the various coastal areas first. 
Owning a place can be a pain when you are not living there full time. You will need to lock it up and have someone check it and open it. On the coast you have the added problem of the humidity if the house is not lived in.
Unless you speak good Spanish your interaction with the locals will be very superficial.
Rent, learn Spanish, check out areas and then decide. Do not rush into anything and remember it is easy to sell but it may not be as easy to sell when you want out.


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

*Rent/Purchase/Tourist card or FM3?*

My wife and I have spent the last 3 winters in Mexico, from late October to late April. We like the Pacific coast as a place to live, but accept the wisdom of suggestions that we spend a full rainy season there before making any long-term rental or purchase decisions.
In the past, long-term expats could get by with tourist cards: every 6 months take a run to the border for a day or two of shopping, then back "home" to Mexico for another 6 months.
We've been told that, with the arrival of computer technology, Mexican Immigration....who have apparently always frowned on this practice but were not in a position to stop it...have now put a stop to this practice.
Is this so? If so, that means we would have to go through the hassle (and expense) of obtaining FM3 visas just to spend a full 12 month period in Mexico....during which time we could very well discover that permanent residence in Mexico really isn't for us. And, with my relatively small pension, I'm concerned that I might not pass the income requirements. I realize that the income requirements are halved if one owns a residence in Mexico, but I don't want to purchase until I'm sure that's what I want to do. What if I purchased on the assumption that we could later obtain FM3's, only to find that we get turned down for some obscure reason?
(I've always wondered about these income requirements. The theory, apparently, is that Mexico wants to ensure that expats do not become a burden on the Mexican social safety net. What social safety net?)

Can anyone comment on this? Is it still possible to stay down in Mexico on a 180 day tourist card, then return to the States for a weekend, then go back into Mexico right away for another 180 days?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

It is still possible, although there are rare occasions where people have been denied a second entry on an FMT after spending 180 days in Mexico on the first one. So, I would suggest you use a different entry point if returning quickly enough that you might be recognized. As for the FM3 requirements; if you can't meet them, you might want to reconsider your plans because they will rise from time to time and inflation is rising as well. Of course, it doesn't all have to be income and being able to show substantial assets to carry you through at least a year or two would probably do the trick. It isn't as complicated as it first seems.


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

This is the first time I've ever read that assets..... other than regular, verifiable monthly income..... would be considered by Mexican Immigration as part of the income requirements to obtain an FM3 visa. There's no mention of that possibility on the Mexican Immigration website, nor in any of the popular books that deal with the subject...."Choose Mexico" by John Howells, or Mexico Mike's books, etc.
Can you provide any links or references that mention the possibility of including assets, (i.e. bank account balances, investments, etc) in the income-requirement equation?
I hope you're right, because our net income from all pension sources is too close for comfort to the current requirement of $1500 US for myself and an extra $500 US for my wife. And Mexican Immigration uses that US dollar figure. Every time the Canadian dollar drops against the US dollar, I figure it lessens our chances of meeting the income requirements. 
(For anyone who suggests that our finances are too close to the bone to risk living in Mexico, let's just say that we are living well within our means in Canada. I assume, therefore, that we could live within our means in Mexico as well.)


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

RV ******, i'm curious about the income requirement as well. i moved to the lake chapala area in April of 2008. when i applied for my FM3, i provided three bank statements which showed deposits for the months of february, march, and april of 2008 in excess of $1500US a month since i was working in the US for those months. i have had no income since and will not start US social security until November of 2009. 

when i renew my FM3 this year, my bank statements (as they stand) will show no deposits for the months of february, march, and april. however, i have more than enough in my US bank to certainly cover the annual cost of living here. someone told me that my best bet was, for those months, just to transfer money from my savings account into my checking account and that would appear to the FM3 people as "income." of course, it's not, it's just moving money around. but do you think that this will work when i apply for my renewal? 

thanks! barb

p.s. folks, if you don't live in the lake chapala area then you probably don't know this, but RV ****** is a GREAT source of information on this and other forums. the man knows whereof he speaks and is always willing to help, even in answering for the 9,875th time "what's the best route to take to lake chapala?"!!


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Mexican immigration doesn't use dollars, it uses a multiple of the minimum daily wage as a guideline. You may have been using consular information, which is notoriously variable from one consulate to another. Here, at Lake Chapala, INM seems flexible enough and, once established by foreign income, they do appear to take investment accounts into consideration, especially if they are with local investment houses. Sometimes, folks do some creative transfers of funds in the three months preceding renewals in order to show a flow of 'income' into the account they use to establish their qualifications. It appears that ElChante will be able to confirm that in the months to come. Thanks for your kind comments, ElChante.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

elchante said:


> RV ******, i'm curious about the income requirement as well. i moved to the lake chapala area in April of 2008. when i applied for my FM3, i provided three bank statements which showed deposits for the months of february, march, and april of 2008 in excess of $1500US a month since i was working in the US for those months. i have had no income since and will not start US social security until November of 2009.
> 
> when i renew my FM3 this year, my bank statements (as they stand) will show no deposits for the months of february, march, and april. however, i have more than enough in my US bank to certainly cover the annual cost of living here. someone told me that my best bet was, for those months, just to transfer money from my savings account into my checking account and that would appear to the FM3 people as "income." of course, it's not, it's just moving money around. but do you think that this will work when i apply for my renewal?
> 
> ...




You can show the income from your investment account but if the account is abroad you must have the 3 consecutive months translated by an official translator.
We usually bring the minimum amount necessary to live in Mexico for a year into our account in Mexico over the 3 months they want to see and show them the statements from the Mexican bank so no need to translate.. 
We have also wired during these 3 months the amount we need to receive every month.
Both methods have worked for us for the last 8 years.
We do not think it is their business to know what we have in our investment accounts so we wire what we want them to see.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

That's an excellent approach and solves the problem quite handily. Thanks for posting.


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

thanks, RV ****** and Hound Dog. sounds like my best bet is to open a bank account here in Mexico and then wire money in for the three months in question since currently my only account is in a credit union in California. although i'm now curious as to whether wiring money to Mexico is any cheaper than having my credit union monthly statements translated! i'll check into that. 

thanks again for the input.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

You may find that dealing with one of the local investment houses, like Actinver-Lloyd or Multiva, is a lot easier than with a Mexican bank.


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

RV, i note that those two are always referred to as investment houses rather than banks. but it is possible to just open a checking account at either; correct?


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

Hey RVGRINGO. 
With reference to your post #12 on this thread: 
This confirms another of those very confusing things about dealing with the Mexican bureaucracy. Many websites and books state unequivocally that prospective expats MUST apply for their initial FM3 visas at an embassy or consulate in one's home country. 
I've since learned that information is incorrect: I've met many expats who applied for, and obtained, their initial FM3 visas at the Mexican Immigration office in their Mexican home area.
Ref. Hound Dog's post: Do you mean that you open a Mexican bank account with only enough funds to show 3 months' worth of "income requirement"? I know that many expats are reluctant to deposit much money into a Mexican bank account for fear of a devaluation a la 1992 (or whenever it was ).


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

Many websites and books are written by people who want to make money and actually know nothing about the situation. Others are accurate at the time they are written, and things change. There are still websites out there touting Pamama City as a place where you can live well on $600 per month, when actually you'll be lucky to rent a room in someone's apartment for that.

That's why we have forums, so you can talk to someone 'on the ground'.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

elchante said:


> RV, i note that those two are always referred to as investment houses rather than banks. but it is possible to just open a checking account at either; correct?


Checks are seldom written and seldom accepted in Mexico for normal transactions. It is definitely a 'cash society'. As such, we all live on cash obtained from ATMs using debit cards from our US or Canadian banks, etc. That allows you to take advantage of exchange rate variances and there are ATMs in every large store, corner banks, shopping centers, airports, etc. It also allows you to avoid the heavy fees imposed by Mexican banks. For larger amounts, most keep an account at an investment house where they can cash checks, wire funds to or from other countries and earn interest on mutual funds, etc. So, keep your checking account from home, have retirement funds deposited directly into your home bank and have them issue you a couple of debit cards. By the way, you will want a credit card but will seldom use it either.


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

RV, that's what i'm doing presently (i.e. using my ATM card for cash and paying for everything in cash). what i was wondering about is in reference to Hound Dog's suggestion that i open an account here with an investment house and for three months wire money in to show that i meet the income requirements for the FM3. if i were to do that, how do i access that money? that's where my poorly-worded checking account question came from. or do the investment houses issue debit cards as well so that i could take out cash? or, having met the income requirements with three months of wire transfers, do i then transfer that money back to my US bank so i can access it with an ATM card?


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## pedro (May 15, 2007)

we show our scotia bank statements in english. have no $'s in a mex bank or investment house. we also use people that do this sort of thing[imss,fm renewals,etc.] so we don't have the hassle. it only costs $400-800mp.
there are several people in the chapala area that do this for you. we use jorge avelar.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

At the investment houses, you will have invested in one of their mutual fund accounts. You may buy or sell shares whenever you wish (some accounts have daily access; others require a wait) by simply stepping up to the counter, presenting your account card and ordering the transaction you want. There is no need to wire money back to the USA because it is always wise to have some funds quickly available in the event of an emergency.


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

Pedro, i use Jorge too. in 2008, i think it cost me $600MX to have three month's worth of statements translated. and that's fine. 

what got me going on this topic was the fact that i have no income this year. someone suggested that i merely transfer money in my US credit union account from my savings account into my checking account for three months and that would "look like" income....even though it's really just moving money at the same bank around. 

then it was suggested that instead i wire transfer money to an investment account here for three months and use the statements from the investment account for my FM3 paperwork. 

still trying to find out if the first method (just transferring money around in my US account) will work, or if i need to use the second (wire transfer) method. 

by the way, i asked Jorge the other day if it is still necessary to have ORIGINALS of my bank statements for FM3 purposes or if i can use printouts from my online banking. Jorge said i can use printouts.


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## elchante (Dec 22, 2008)

thank you, RV! now i understand (took long enough; eh?).


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## mexliving (Mar 30, 2009)

i read your concerns about your place being empty..... you can always bring high end door lock systems and also consider placing the property as a vacation rental.....vrbo. m . plenty of property managers and everyone knows eachother so you will have some peace of mind.


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## DUTCH (Mar 19, 2009)

*House in Chixchulub Beach*

Dear Des

A Canadian friend, just bougth a property in a cute fisherman village in Yucatan coast (Chixchulub) a year a go, she payed about 60,000 Usd, for a 2 storie house, 3 bedrooms, brand new. she uses the property during winter and rent it most of the year. I know this is a very inexpensive location. wish you luck in your findings.

Greetings from merida.


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