# Offshore Tax



## Guest

Good evening,

I am looking to move out to spain within the next year some questions i would like to know are about spanish tax laws and regulations. I work offshore on dive support vessels as an officer and I currently working in the middle east. If i become a spanish resident and declare myself out of britain will i need to pay tax on my salay. I will be out the country for more than the recommended 183 days. This was the same law in UK but now the rules have changed which is the main reason i am moving out of the UK. Any answers to this will be much appriciated. Also would i need to pay an national insurance or anything else like this. 
Are there specific spanish forms I would need to complete to proce this. 

Thankx Marc


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## chris(madrid)

MARC - Find a GOOD financial advisor.

FREELANCE NI dues are about 238€/month. Almost certainly you'll be tax liable. RESIDENTS PAY TAX even if away for a while. As a certain lady tennis player found out.


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## spaceman

lyndamarcx said:


> Good evening,
> 
> I am looking to move out to spain within the next year some questions i would like to know are about spanish tax laws and regulations. I work offshore on dive support vessels as an officer and I currently working in the middle east. If i become a spanish resident and declare myself out of britain will i need to pay tax on my salay. I will be out the country for more than the recommended 183 days. This was the same law in UK but now the rules have changed which is the main reason i am moving out of the UK. Any answers to this will be much appriciated. Also would i need to pay an national insurance or anything else like this.
> Are there specific spanish forms I would need to complete to proce this.
> 
> Thankx Marc


Hi Marc,
I work offshore, on oil survey vessels. I am not aware the rules in the for qualification of tax refund have changed. I was offshore for a total over just over 183 days.I submitted my tax return(online) in may this year, and received a full tax refund.
Now i am resident in Spain, currently according to my accountant, here in spain, the same rules apply. 183 days out of the country. As i get paid from a UK company, my tax office have issued me with a Zero tax code. So my pay is currently gross pay. I am looking at paying the minmum amount to UK national insurance for pension purposes. I will not have to pay the same in Spain. The only taxes i pay in spain ae the local ones and medical.

Hope some of this helps.

Spaceman


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## Guest

spaceman said:


> Hi Marc,
> I work offshore, on oil survey vessels. I am not aware the rules in the for qualification of tax refund have changed. I was offshore for a total over just over 183 days.I submitted my tax return(online) in may this year, and received a full tax refund.
> Now i am resident in Spain, currently according to my accountant, here in spain, the same rules apply. 183 days out of the country. As i get paid from a UK company, my tax office have issued me with a Zero tax code. So my pay is currently gross pay. I am looking at paying the minmum amount to UK national insurance for pension purposes. I will not have to pay the same in Spain. The only taxes i pay in spain ae the local ones and medical.
> 
> Hope some of this helps.
> 
> Spaceman


Brilliant info there it has took me ages to finally get an answer i have been getting told that many differnet stories. I was more than certain that you wouldnt need to pay tax if out the country for more than 183 days. Iunderstand that with you being employed with a uk company that you require to get a zero tax code as you are not a resident in the uk anymore. as i work for a forigne company this should not matter anyway as i dont a have a tax code in UK. As you wont be paying tax in Spain what sort of taxes do you pay if you dont mind me asking is it so you qulaify for stae health care and there pension scheme, and they defo dont tax your gross income correct. 
Thanks very mich for you time and help I am now certain i will be in spain this time next year

Cheers marc


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## Guest

Bad Spelling Marc, lol... can you give us the details of your accountant so I can keep on record so when we move over I can get in contact with him? we are looking into moving to the malaga Area... rgs Lynda


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## Guest

After many hours speaking to different tax people. Finally came up with the answers. just a note for everyone else in the same position as myself. Basically if you are out the country Spain for the ecommended 183 days a year and you dont break the half day rule your salary will be tax free. (as we are seafarers) You will need to complete a spanish tax form t declare tha you are working out the country and have proof eg discharge book etc. If you are working and geting paid through a UK company you may be liable to get taxed then you would need to claim this back at end of tax year on the same basis. although mot UK companies pay you through channel islands so thats mainly covered aswell. The majority of EU contries have the same SED rule as the UK.
:clap2:


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## happy in the sun

Hi Marc,, do you have any infor on a good financial advisor ??


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## mrypg9

lyndamarcx said:


> although mot UK companies pay you through channel islands so thats mainly covered aswell.
> :clap2:



But offshore banks report to the UK tax authorities. Even credit card records are scrutinised by HMRC to determine residency for tax purposes.....


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## happy in the sun

I currently live in Sweden with my wife and kids but am making the move to Spain, maybe Estepona in Sept/Oct starting off by renting until we have found an area which we feel like it could be a good place to settle

I work as a Chief Steward onboard a privat yacht so i will be out of the country for about 8 months of the year, i need a little advice if anybody can regarding seamans tax, maybe a good financial adviser, and also someone who deals with longterm rentals,, 
Thanks


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## jamesjacobs79

*seamans tax spain*



happy in the sun said:


> I currently live in Sweden with my wife and kids but am making the move to Spain, maybe Estepona in Sept/Oct starting off by renting until we have found an area which we feel like it could be a good place to settle
> 
> I work as a Chief Steward onboard a privat yacht so i will be out of the country for about 8 months of the year, i need a little advice if anybody can regarding seamans tax, maybe a good financial adviser, and also someone who deals with longterm rentals,,
> Thanks


Hi I am also moving to Spain, and work as a chef on a private yacht. I will also likely be out of Spain for 183 days. Did you manage to find out any solid information regarding tax liability in Spain, or anyone who can deal with tax issues for mariners?

Thanks


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## jamesjacobs79

*seamans tax spain*



lyndamarcx said:


> After many hours speaking to different tax people. Finally came up with the answers. just a note for everyone else in the same position as myself. Basically if you are out the country Spain for the ecommended 183 days a year and you dont break the half day rule your salary will be tax free. (as we are seafarers) You will need to complete a spanish tax form t declare tha you are working out the country and have proof eg discharge book etc. If you are working and geting paid through a UK company you may be liable to get taxed then you would need to claim this back at end of tax year on the same basis. although mot UK companies pay you through channel islands so thats mainly covered aswell. The majority of EU contries have the same SED rule as the UK.
> :clap2:


Hi there.

Is it possible to tell me where you got your info from regarding the seamans dispensation in Spain. I will be moving there this February, and will need to become resident to enable my non EU wife's residency.

I will be out of Spain for more than 183 days through the year, and from May once joining my new vessel I will not break the 1/2 day rule. Between now and May I am on a retainer, so perhaps I will have to pay tax on this, and start my tax free status from May? If you have found anyone who can advise and organise legitimate tax returns it would be great to know. I work on a private yacht registered in the Caymans. I still plan on filling out UK tax returns, as after 2 years my wife will be able to apply for Spanish citizenship as a resident from a former colony (she is Cuban). At that point I will give up my Spanish residency status and periods in Spain will be as a tourist, thereby enabling me to only do the UK tax return. 

Also in regards to medical, local taxes do you have any info regarding these. We will be living in Palma Mallorca. Any info would be much appreciated!


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## Stravinsky

jamesjacobs79 said:


> Hi there.
> 
> Is it possible to tell me where you got your info from regarding the seamans dispensation in Spain. I will be moving there this February, and will need to become resident to enable my non EU wife's residency.
> 
> I will be out of Spain for more than 183 days through the year, and from May once joining my new vessel I will not break the 1/2 day rule. Between now and May I am on a retainer, so perhaps I will have to pay tax on this, and start my tax free status from May? If you have found anyone who can advise and organise legitimate tax returns it would be great to know. I work on a private yacht registered in the Caymans. I still plan on filling out UK tax returns, as after 2 years my wife will be able to apply for Spanish citizenship as a resident from a former colony (she is Cuban). At that point I will give up my Spanish residency status and periods in Spain will be as a tourist, thereby enabling me to only do the UK tax return.
> 
> Also in regards to medical, local taxes do you have any info regarding these. We will be living in Palma Mallorca. Any info would be much appreciated!



Don't get fiscal residency and "residency" (which is simply signing on the list of foreigners) mixed up .... they are two different things


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## jamesjacobs79

Stravinsky said:


> Don't get fiscal residency and "residency" (which is simply signing on the list of foreigners) mixed up .... they are two different things


So I can be a Spanish resident , in order to make use of my EU treaty rights (freedom of movement which will subsequently allow my non EU wife Spanish residence, with an EU family residence card, whilst at the same time not being a fiscal resident.

Is there any literature on this?

Thanks


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## MacRov

Any of you work offshore on rigs or are you all boat crew, trying to find out what the deal will be for someone working offshore for a dubai company and working in either north sea or africa while living in Spain with my wife n kids.
Is it the same 183 day rule or the fact the my family live will be living there I would have to pay spanish taxes ? not really sure which accountants to ask as I don't know any in the UK that would deal with Spanish tax and don't know any at all in Spain. Any help/info much appreciated.


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## jamesjacobs79

*further info*



Stravinsky said:


> Don't get fiscal residency and "residency" (which is simply signing on the list of foreigners) mixed up .... they are two different things


Hi Stravinsky

Ok now I understand the difference between residency and fiscal residency.

The problem I believe I may have is this. Although I will be out of the country for over the 183 days per year, my wife will not, and from having read in many places that the Spanish authorities will assume fiscal residency for me based on my wife's residency, unless I can prove fiscal residency in another country. If this is the case how do I prove fiscal residency in the UK - I will be out of both countries for more than 183 days per year. My wife however will be living in Spain permanently.

Having spoken to various tax advisors in Spain many said that a lot of people with offshore income just don't bother to declare it. I assume this could be a bit risky if caught!

I have now established that Spain doesn't actually have a seaman's tax dispensation like in the UK. Therefore it would be far more preferable to be considered a UK fiscal resident an d pay zero income tax, as opposed to Spanish fiscal resident and pay tax on worldwide income.

Cheers


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## Stravinsky

Just because your wife becomes a fiscal tax resident doesnt mean that you will, or at least if thats the case I have never heard it before. In fact theres someone on here that resides in Spain whilst her husband is resident in the UK.

I'm sure its right, there are many people who dont declare. I guess if you do it you take the risk and if necessary accept the consequences.

So from what you say, then it would seem sensible to pay the tax in the UK. You wont be a tax resident here anyway, so it's not an issue. The worst that could possibly happen would that you would end up paying the difference between UK and Spanish tax .... but from what you have described that seems very unlikely indeed.

EDIT

I'm not 100% sure, but because you would be paying tax and NI in the UK, that would in effect mean that you could claim child benefit on your wifes behalf if indeed that applies.


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## jamesjacobs79

Stravinsky said:


> Just because your wife becomes a fiscal tax resident doesnt mean that you will, or at least if thats the case I have never heard it before. In fact theres someone on here that resides in Spain whilst her husband is resident in the UK.
> 
> I'm sure its right, there are many people who dont declare. I guess if you do it you take the risk and if necessary accept the consequences.
> 
> So from what you say, then it would seem sensible to pay the tax in the UK. You wont be a tax resident here anyway, so it's not an issue. The worst that could possibly happen would that you would end up paying the difference between UK and Spanish tax .... but from what you have described that seems very unlikely indeed.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> I'm not 100% sure, but because you would be paying tax and NI in the UK, that would in effect mean that you could claim child benefit on your wifes behalf if indeed that applies.


OK if that is the case then there would be no problem - the issue is in most places I have seen the criteria for being fiscal resident as highlighted below - assumption of of spouse being resident' note the text in red.

I could get a certificate of fiscal residence from the UK Inland revenue to use as proof.

The difference between the UK and Spanish tax would be huge (around 40,000 euros) as in the UK I receive 100% income tax relief through mariner's dispensation, whereas in Spain this does not exist.

Am I obliged to actually submit a Spanish tax return (no property or income in Spain), or should I only provide evidence if they contact me?


'A. Residence of the individual

Individuals are deemed to be residents in Spain when they meet any of the following criteria:

They remain in Spain for more than 183 days during a calendar year. In order to determine the period of stay, sporadic absences are included in the count, except those where the tax residence in another country is proved. In the case of countries or territories labelled as tax havens, the Tax Administration can demand proof of stay in that tax haven over a period of 183 days in a calendar year. In order to determine the period of stay, temporary stays in Spain that are the consequence of contractual obligations in agreements of cultural or humanitarian collaborations performed free of charge with the Spanish Public Administrations are not included.
Their main base or centre of activities or economic interests is, directly or indirectly, in Spain. Also, it is presumed, except if proved otherwise, that a taxpayer has his usual place of residence in Spain when, using the above criteria, his spouse -not legally separated- and underage dependent children are permanent residents in Spain.'


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## Stravinsky

jamesjacobs79 said:


> OK if that is the case then there would be no problem - the issue is in most places I have seen the criteria for being fiscal resident as highlighted below - assumption of of spouse being resident' note the text in red.
> 
> I could get a certificate of fiscal residence from the UK Inland revenue to use as proof.
> 
> The difference between the UK and Spanish tax would be huge (around 40,000 euros) as in the UK I receive 100% income tax relief through mariner's dispensation, whereas in Spain this does not exist.
> 
> Am I obliged to actually submit a Spanish tax return (no property or income in Spain), or should I only provide evidence if they contact me?
> 
> 
> 'A. Residence of the individual
> 
> Individuals are deemed to be residents in Spain when they meet any of the following criteria:
> 
> They remain in Spain for more than 183 days during a calendar year. In order to determine the period of stay, sporadic absences are included in the count, except those where the tax residence in another country is proved. In the case of countries or territories labelled as tax havens, the Tax Administration can demand proof of stay in that tax haven over a period of 183 days in a calendar year. In order to determine the period of stay, temporary stays in Spain that are the consequence of contractual obligations in agreements of cultural or humanitarian collaborations performed free of charge with the Spanish Public Administrations are not included.
> Their main base or centre of activities or economic interests is, directly or indirectly, in Spain. Also, it is presumed, except if proved otherwise, that a taxpayer has his usual place of residence in Spain when, using the above criteria, his spouse -not legally separated- and underage dependent children are permanent residents in Spain.'


Well ... all I can say is when you think logically, how can you be a fiscal tax resident in Spain when you dont live here. You are paying your tax in the UK, which is where you are deemed a tax resident.

Its only my opinion, but I wouldnt submit a tax return in Spain, because by doing that you are declaring your tax residency in Spain.  Your wife will be a different matter. She will need to make a return after the required period, and separately to you. My wife and I make separate returns. The allowances are better


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## jamesjacobs79

Stravinsky said:


> Well ... all I can say is when you think logically, how can you be a fiscal tax resident in Spain when you dont live here. You are paying your tax in the UK, which is where you are deemed a tax resident.
> 
> Its only my opinion, but I wouldnt submit a tax return in Spain, because by doing that you are declaring your tax residency in Spain. Your wife will be a different matter. She will need to make a return after the required period, and separately to you. My wife and I make separate returns. The allowances are better


Thanks for the advice - I think you are right file UK tax return and hope for the best!!


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## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> But offshore banks report to the UK tax authorities.


Not in the case of the Channel Isles or Gibraltar as I understand it, providing you opt for automatic tax retention on interest.

However this will not be the case in the Isle of Man from July onwards, where full disclosure will apply.


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## Stravinsky

littleredrooster said:


> Not in the case of the Channel Isles or Gibraltar as I understand it, providing you opt for automatic tax retention on interest.
> 
> However this will not be the case in the Isle of Man from July onwards, where full disclosure will apply.


It was probably a few years ago now when one of the main banks was forced to divulge all its offshore investors to HMRC


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## littleredrooster

Stravinsky said:


> It was probably a few years ago now when one of the main banks was forced to divulge all its offshore investors to HMRC


Well thats not the way I understand it from recent contact with various banks.
The automatic retention tax is increased from 20% to 35% from July of this year for those opting for non disclosure and confidentiality with accounts based in Jersey and Gibraltar.

However that will not be the case in the I of Man, from July onwards, where full disclosure to the relevant tax authorities will be the case, and the retention tax and confidentiality will no longer be an option, leaving the client with responsibility to ensure that the due tax is paid.

In cases where large sums are involved and possible illegal activities are suspected, then it will continue to be the banks duty to inform the relevant authorities.


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## mrypg9

littleredrooster said:


> Well thats not the way I understand it from recent contact with various banks.
> The automatic retention tax is increased from 20% to 35% from July of this year for those opting for non disclosure and confidentiality with accounts based in Jersey and Gibraltar.
> 
> However that will not be the case in the I of Man, from July onwards, where full disclosure to the relevant tax authorities will be the case, and the retention tax and confidentiality will no longer be an option, leaving the client with responsibility to ensure that the due tax is paid.
> 
> In cases where large sums are involved and possible illegal activities are suspected, then it will continue to be the banks duty to inform the relevant authorities.


We have deposits in both Gibraltar and the Isle of Man and as I understand it tax is automatically deducted from both...which is what we would prefer.


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## littleredrooster

mrypg9 said:


> We have deposits in both Gibraltar and the Isle of Man and as I understand it tax is automatically deducted from both...which is what we would prefer.


I think you will find that from July this year full disclosure to the relevant tax authority will apply in the I.of Man and Gross interest will be paid. You will then be responsible for ensuring that your own tax is paid seperately.

Gibralter and Jersey will continue as previously regarding the witholding tax and confidentiality, the only difference being that the tax will jump up to a whopping 35%.

They opted for different systems from July 2011 onwards,, the I.of Man following UK recommendations and the others applying the Swiss system.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> We have deposits in both Gibraltar and the Isle of Man and as I understand it tax is automatically deducted from both...which is what we would prefer.


But not when it goes up to 30% surely?

As I think I've said before, we opt for disclosure rather than retention and then declare it here the following year. We haven't paid any tax at all yet, as the total amount of interest earned is within our personal tax allowance.


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## wavydavygravy

Folks, I know this has been discussed at length but my case, I think is slightly different. My wife and children are based in the UK and we are all looking to move to Spain for a couple of years. I, on the otherhand am non-resident following a long spell of working in Asia but have recently started a non fixed rotation having tax paid in Nigeria. My rotation keeps me out of the UK for more than 183 days but all my banking is still done in the UK, as family is still there. Question is, if we moved to Spain would I be liable for tax? I spend less than 6 month in Spain and England and tax is paid in Nigeria...... any help/advice much appreciated.


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## MacRov

From what I've read (and I'm no expert) that if you're family life is based in Spain then you are liable to pay tax on your international earnings. I also work offshore, primarily in the UK but can be Africa/middle east etc and although I will be out of the country for more than 180 days it looks like I would have to pay tax due to my wife n kids being based in Spain all year round.
I'm not entirely sure of it and will be getting an expert to deal with it once we move to Spain.


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## Stravinsky

MacRov said:


> From what I've read (and I'm no expert) that if you're family life is based in Spain then you are liable to pay tax on your international earnings. I also work offshore, primarily in the UK but can be Africa/middle east etc and although I will be out of the country for more than 180 days it looks like I would have to pay tax due to my wife n kids being based in Spain all year round.
> I'm not entirely sure of it and will be getting an expert to deal with it once we move to Spain.


Part of the basis for becoming a tax resident is that you are in Spain for more than 180 days a year, and indeed are signed on the foreigners list. I don't think by the sounds of it that you actually fulfil that criteria.

It may be that your wife will be a fiscal resident, but she is able to complete a separate tax return, even if it is a nil return. She will of course have the Spanish allowances


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## wavydavygravy

Stravinsky said:


> Part of the basis for becoming a tax resident is that you are in Spain for more than 180 days a year, and indeed are signed on the foreigners list. I don't think by the sounds of it that you actually fulfil that criteria.
> 
> It may be that your wife will be a fiscal resident, but she is able to complete a separate tax return, even if it is a nil return. She will of course have the Spanish allowances


MacRov/Stavinsky thanks for the advice. My wife would be the one doing all the signing of forms and what have you. And I guess she would sign this 'foreigners list'. I on the other hand wasnt planning on signing anything as I am not there for more than 4 months of the year and will be doing all banking in the UK still. When they say 'International Earnings', I am probably being naive but can the Spanish authorites demand to see my account details even though I am not there for the 180 days?

Am not asking anyone to advise me to break the law but what I am considering seems viable do you think?

Thanks again


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## almendros

Stravinsky said:


> Part of the basis for becoming a tax resident is that you are in Spain for more than 180 days a year, and indeed are signed on the foreigners list. I don't think by the sounds of it that you actually fulfil that criteria.
> 
> It may be that your wife will be a fiscal resident, but she is able to complete a separate tax return, even if it is a nil return. She will of course have the Spanish allowances


That is all perfectly true but as Macrov said, if the centre of your family life is in Spain you can be considered to be tax resident even if you fail to meet the 183 day criteria.


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## ozvic

Hey guys,

Did anyone manage to get any clarity on this question...?

We are in a similar position and thinking of moving to Spain- we are resident in Australia, but my husband works offshore in China (oil), myself and our daughter would be resident full time (I have an EU passport) but he would be flying in and out- we thought if he was out of Spain for 183 days then he wouldnt be liable for tax in Spain....is this the case? Sounds like from these convos that maybe he would because me and our daughter would be there full time, but only if he did a tax return....?

Help would be very appreciated- thanks!


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## almendros

ozvic said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Did anyone manage to get any clarity on this question...?
> 
> We are in a similar position and thinking of moving to Spain- we are resident in Australia, but my husband works offshore in China (oil), myself and our daughter would be resident full time (I have an EU passport) but he would be flying in and out- we thought if he was out of Spain for 183 days then he wouldnt be liable for tax in Spain....is this the case? Sounds like from these convos that maybe he would because me and our daughter would be there full time, but only if he did a tax return....?
> 
> Help would be very appreciated- thanks!


Quoting from the advoco.es website Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?

_You may also be considered resident in Spain if you stay within the 183 day limit but other factors indicate it is your main base. For example of your spouse and family live in Spain the onus will be on you to prove residency elsewhere however short a time you spend in Spain._


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## ozvic

Thanks for the reply, interesting link to look at, I think we are in an unclear position as he does have a residency visa and pay tax in his country of work....something we have to get further advice on for sure.....

so you know if there is a limit to the amount of shengen visas a person can get?

Thanks again!


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## fishfearme

OK Clear as Mud?
Here is my situation, I am moving with my wife and 2 kids to Spain in 2 weeks. I work off-shore and will be in and out of Spain every month, I will be out of the country more than 183 days. As far as i know I am allowed to be in the UK less than 90 days in a tax year.
I still have a house in the UK which I wil be renting out, my wages at this time are paid into a UK bank but other than that I have severed all other ties with the UK.
DO I NEED TO PAY SPAINISH TAX?
any tax specialist out there get in touch.
Thanks


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## almendros

I thought my previous post made it pretty clear.



_You may also be considered resident in Spain if you stay within the 183 day limit but other factors indicate it is your main base. For example of your spouse and family live in Spain the onus will be on you to prove residency elsewhere however short a time you spend in Spain.
_


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