# Is Spain full of thieves? Pitfalls for those buying property



## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Ok, at the risk of offending Spain-lovers I wanted to ask an honest question about people's experiences of Spain. I was warned a few years ago by someone I didn't particularly like or trust that "Spain is full of thieves". As a result I ignored the advice I was given and bought a bit of land there with the intention of moving there quite soon after. One thing after another got in the way - health problems, a death in the family, life stuff - and then Brexit happened and it's been a case of 'what to do now?' ever since.

In the meantime, my various experiences of Spain (apart from the many that preceded my buying a bit of land there) were mostly positive as a tourist and traveller. Ok, there were the odd scumbags here and there who tried to over-charge me because I was a tourist, but 'you get those everywhere' I thought to myself. 

Over the years I've spent weeks and months living there, visiting frequently every year to get to know the country and enjoy the weather. 

Since buying a little bit of rustic land I've had nothing but problems - almost all of them to do with Spanish companies and 'professionals' relieving me of as much money as possible.

Firstly, the fees for buying a cheap bit of land in Spain were pretty shocking to me compared to the UK. Then the very odd practice of under-declaring the value of property your selling in order to avoid paying government taxes on it: this seemingly an accepted part of Spanish conveyancing, even to the extent that the notary leaves the room as a brown envelope of cash is passed from buyer to seller!

Then the lawyer omitted to tell me that I'd have water bills for the land to pay each year, even though I don't use any water and have no pipes connected to the meter. Three years down the line and I discover by chance that I've had 149% interest added to unpaid water bills! No amount of appeals or reasoning got me anywhere with the guy who runs the water company (a one man operation and he works out of his livingroom in the local town). And he now ignores every email I send him as I try to find out what the most recent bill is. I have to communicate with him through a lawyer.

The lawyer also forgot to mention that I'd have property taxes to pay each year, even though the land has some trees growing on it and a few more weeds, and that's it. No buildings. Five years on I'm now trying to find out how much I owe. 

I've recently been amused to find out the pain and suffering involved in trying to import a car or motorcycle into Spain. More money out the door and about twenty different hoops to jump through in what I now realise is typical Spanish bureaucracy (picture a dusty little office in a spaghetti western with an unshaven, sweat-drenched Mexican official spitting on the floor when you ask him which way the sheriff's office is). Then there's the banking fiasco and the charges you are expected to pay just for having an account. I had 600 euros in my account and the following year it had gone down to 300, and the only withdrawals were being made by the bank! 

Sell your own private car and you have to give the government money. I'm sure the list goes on of ways various elements in Spain take money out of the pockets of ordinary people.

[At this point I'm reminded of Columbus, Cortez and Pizarro et al landing upon the shores of the Caribbean and north and south America and who proceeded to enslave, loot, torture, rape and pillage an entire continent for all of the gold and precious resources they could get their hands on.]

A recent idea to sell my bit of land [45 mins inland from Alicante] to a friend who was interested revealed that those huge legal fees just got even huger. 900 euros + VAT for the notary. 1800 euros + VAT for the solicitor. 10% tax to pay on the value of the land. Another 3% because I'm a non-resident. 

So, I ask anyone out there who has had experience of Spain and Spanish authorities and companies: is Spain full of thieves?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I wouldn't say Spain is full of thieves - although there are undoubtedly some about, as you rightly say the same could be said of everywhere on earth. Whllst I appreciate that if you weren't aware of them they would come as a nasty shock, all the taxes and fees you describe are not some kind of illegal scam, they are part of Spain's taxation system. You may not like them or feel they are justified, but had you researched a property purchase (even if it's a piece of land and not an actual building) thoroughly, you would have known about them. There can be a tendency amonsst professionals involved (eg some lawyers), especially those who may not work with many foreign clients, not to bother to explain these things as thoroughly as they ought to, because they assume you already know about them as a Spanish client would. I don't think that could be described as thievery because they stand to gain nothing personally from you paying those taxes, the money goes either to the national Treasury or regional or local authority funds.

The culture of under declaring is still, apparently, widely tolerated and people like notaries complicit in it, which is very strange to us, but it has come about because like you, many Spanish people regard all these taxes as iniquitous and look for every oppootunity to avoid paying them. The Government, for its part, knows that a large part of the population routinely under declare their income for tax, for example, therefore they impose taxes, wherever possible, on things like property transactions where the taxes (even if they are not always paid in full) are much more difficult to evade paying altogether. Efforts have been made in recent years to stamp out these practices and make it more difficult to pay over large amounts in cash, but there is still a long way to go.

The thing I find most odd about the scenario you have described is having to pay water bills on land which does not have any kind of water supply. That does seem very strange and I have no idea why that should be. Maybe someone else who iwns rural land can shed some light on it or advise you what you can do to challenge it.

In the end, though, you must realise that Spain is not the UK, the taxation system is very different and it is up to you to inform yourself as much as you possibly can about what your liabilities are. There is a lot of information out there on the internet, although it often helps to be able to read Spanish to access it. I had to pay income tax on lump sums I received from final salary pension schemes - rather a lot of it. Under the UK system, that money would have been tax free, so had I been tax resident in the UK when I received it, there would have been nothing to pay. But I wasn't, I had been resident in Spain for years by then, so the bill had to be paid. No use me railing about it and calling the Spanish authorities a bunch of thieves ´but I did know when I took the decision to move here that I'd have to face paying that bill eventually, because I'd read up on tax matters as widely as possible before coming to the decision to make the move. Similarly I made sure I was aware of the costs involved in buying and selliing property, and the costs associated with being a non resident owner (which I was for nearly 4 years before moving over) like the annual non resident tax and bank charges. They apply to all of us, and are not aimed at you personally!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

To say everybody is a bit of a stretch but I'd be tempted to still answer yes. It doesn't get any better the longer you are here.
Problem is much of it is law to begin with so you are starting off with state sponsored theft and intrusion coupled with an inability to either think for themselves or do their job.
This in turn leads to a general resentment from the public who instead of acting like grown adults and dealing with life decide it is better to just ignore the "rules" or engage in a tit for tat squabbles that only lead to more costly infringements. But this is fine as you can always sell your debts to an unassuming foreigner and walk away with a clean slate.

All this results in more and more convoluted and invasive laws being made to try and catch one out which instead seems to only affect those who are trying to do things correctly in the first place.
But yes, as it is said and you will hear more and more, this is Spain, we do things differently here. Which is neither an suitable excuse or an explanation but it's all they got. People seem to care more about suppressing those nasty catalans than trying to make life better for themselves. Wouldn't know a civil right if it bit them in the butt.

Of course this is not necessarily the case with everybody(generalisation disclaimer) but too often one is left scratching their heads wondering just how things have managed to get like this in the first place.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Is there a meter on the property? That's probably what you are paying for.

Alternatively if there's an irrigation system you might be part of a community that organises this.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Thanks for your replies guys. The 'full of thieves' reference is, of course, tongue in cheek to some degree. And yes, of course, I put my hands up to not doing enough research into things before buying a bit of land. It was my responsibility and at the moment I regret it. If I had known what I know now I wouldn't have bought it. And I didn't think for a minute that all this 'was aimed at me personally'! If I come across this way in my initial post then it is not intended. I started the thread as a way of inviting discussion on whether Spain is more inclined to high fees and taxation that other places in Europe. And also as a way of helping the unsuspecting avoid the pitfalls that have come from my naiveté, not to attract lectures on my own stupidity, in which I'm now quite accomplished! 

Pazcat, this is a good explanation of what I've seen for myself. Not just in Spain, but in the UK. Unfairness tends to breed a kind of tug-of-war relationship as the authorities try to feed off the people, and the people in return do their best to hide what they have. In the case of Spain it seems doubly unfair on ordinary Spaniards, given the level of unemployment, wages and the state of the economy. Taxing people who sell their cars seems way over the top. But then again 'this is Spain'. Still...

As for the water company...well, I'm also bewildered by this. But I've been given no explanation other than the word 'derramas', which seems to be a standing charge just for having a water meter. The lawyer in question deals with English speaking foreign clients all the time as she in based in a large ex-pat community. Naïve/ ignorant as I was I don't think I could ever defend a lawyer who charges so much money for not mentioning some crucial aspect of property ownership to one of her foreign clients.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

xgarb said:


> Is there a meter on the property? That's probably what you are paying for.
> 
> Alternatively if there's an irrigation system you might be part of a community that organises this.


Hi xgarb, there is a meter in a box on the neighbouring property but no pipework linking it to my property. But yes, it is my meter, and I've now just accepted that the bills I have to pay are for simply having that meter there.

I should add that there's a neighbour of mine who has also been shocked at the high bills he has been getting from the same water 'company' (SAT Ubeda). He has water connected and thinks that the water price is excessive for irrigation water. He's also wondering whether he can just get another company to bill him. Not sure it works that way in Spain though, especially out in the sticks.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

xgarb said:


> Is there a meter on the property? That's probably what you are paying for.
> 
> Alternatively if there's an irrigation system you might be part of a community that organises this.


Correct & that meter (should it exist) maybe nowhere near the plot itself.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Costs related to buying and owning property vary greatly from one country to another and IMHO it's essential that you inform yourself fully prior to committing yourself (or even genuinely considering). In a great many countries vacant land does attract property taxes and other charges, costs associated with conveyancing and who pays what also vary widely (or perhaps I should say wildly) for example. Sadly many people, like the OP, seem to think that things will be the same, or similar, as in their home country. In Spain, as in some federations (e.g. Australia and the US) costs can also vary by region (or state).

The same goes for bank charges.

Forums like this one are an excellent resource and a good place to ask questions before buying.

Just saying.

Sorry OP that you have encountered so many unanticipated costs.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

I think there are two points I'd like to clarify, in order to make this as useful a thread as possible to people wanting to protect themselves from unforeseen pitfalls in Spain:

1. Make yourself fully awareness of the system. Find out all of the ins and outs of buying, selling and owning property in Spain before you commit. That includes the money, taxes, fees and charges involved in moving there and living there. I didn't do that thoroughly and I made the mistake of relying on the lawyer I paid to make me aware of things a Spanish citizen would have take for granted.

2. The system itself and what you may not know yet. Does Spain seem to have more money traps, hidden or higher charges and taxation points - fair or foul - than other places? What are the other charges etc that foreigners thinking of moving to and settling in Spain should be aware of as part of their education on the matter?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank B said:


> 2. The system itself and what you may not know yet. Does Spain seem to have more money traps, hidden or higher charges and taxation points - fair or foul - than other places? What are the other charges etc that foreigners thinking of moving to and settling in Spain should be aware of as part of their education on the matter?


Besides acquainting themselves with the costs of buying and selling property (and I don't think you mentioned the municipal plus valia tax which has to be paid when selling land or a property (calculated on the official increase in value since the date it was bought), although apologies if I overlooked it, it's also very important to be aware of Spanish inheritance tax liability and understand what the possible implications could be. The allowances vary between the autonomous regions so they need to be looked up according to which region you are in. For anybody tax resident in Spain who might inherit property or assets from someone they are not related to (which includes unmarried couples who do not have pareja de hecho status) it can be horrendous, which is what led to my OH and I getting married after having lived together for over 25 years - otherwise we would probably not have bothered. Oh, and the tax has to be paid before the property/assets can be transferred into the name of the inheritor, so the inheritor can't sell them in orderto raise the money to pay the tax but has to pay it up front, and if it isn't paid within six months of the date of death extra penalties for late payment apply.

Another thing to be aware of is that if a couple has a joint bank account and one of them dies, it is often the case unless they have a very understanding bank manager, that the account will be frozen upon them being informed of the death leading to problems for the survivor who cannot access the account. I would always have an individual account, personally.

It's also important (and again it helps if you can read Spanish) to keep your eye on the Spanish press to keep abreast of the changes in taxation rules which happen from time to time - for example, Andalucia has just substantially increased the regional allowances against inheritance tax for those who inherit from a spouse or a parent, which is an improvement, and also reduced the number of years a property must be retained before it can be sold after these allowances are claimed.

Spain does have higher taxation in some ways than the UK does (I can't comment on other countries) but other taxes can be lower - ie most people will be paying substantially less in IBI on their land or property than they would on a property in the UK. Another difference is that Spain, for the past few years, has imposed a tax on lottery winnings of 20% of all wins over a certain amount (I seem to remember its either €2k or €2.5k but I've never been lucky enough to find out) and this tax is witheld before the prize is handed over so there can be no evading it. This was introduced soon after La Crisis began, and personally I think it was a good way of gettiing in extra revenue by taxing unearned income. So if you hit the Euromilliions jackpot, a fifth of your winnings will be going to the Spanish Treasury.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If you think Spain has horrendously complex tax laws or is 'full of thieves' (which I don't) never buy property in the Czech Republic, Poland or any ex-Communist state.

Hundreds of thousands of foreigners, maybe millions, have bought property and run businesses in Spain 100% problem free. The small percentage of those who have been or feel they hqve been ripped off inevitably gets more attention.

We were ripped off multiple times when we left the UK and went to live in the Czech Republic, chiefly down to our naiveity in assuming people would treat us as we would them, a practice that stood us well back in the UK. We vowed that we would never let that happen to us again when we moved on to Spain, but in the first few months, it did. 
But...not by Spaniards. Brits, South Americans and Moroccans but not a single Spaniard.
So-called Spanish 'bureaucracy' pales into insignificance compared to that of the Czech Republic, where it's commonplace to bribe minor officials to get things like Residency Certificates.

Maybe it was due not only to basic greed but also to an assumption that foreigners must be extremely wealthy compared to the indigenous population. That was at one time certainly true for most western foreigners, when the exchange rate was good. It's not so true on the Costas, the wealthiest municipality in Malaga Province, Benahavis, has a per capita income of less than 25k euros p.a.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

What's your experience of Poland in that regard mrypg9? My partner is Polish and we have considered Poland as an option (but not so much the winters!). Both of us, including my Polish partner, aren't well versed on how it works in Poland with regard to buying and selling property.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> So if you hit the Euromilliions jackpot, a fifth of your winnings will be going to the Spanish Treasury.


With my luck I don't even bother buying tickets :fingerscrossed:


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> We were ripped off multiple times when we left the UK and went to live in the Czech Republic, chiefly down to our naiveity in assuming people would treat us as we would them, a practice that stood us well back in the UK. We vowed that we would never let that happen to us again when we moved on to Spain, but in the first few months, it did.
> But...not by Spaniards. Brits, South Americans and Moroccans but not a single Spaniard.
> So-called Spanish 'bureaucracy' pales into insignificance compared to that of the Czech Republic, where it's commonplace to bribe minor officials to get things like Residency Certificates.


We had to get up at an ungodly hour this morning to go down to the Extranjeria in Torre del Mar to change the address on our "residencia" cards following our recent move. In the waiting room we were chatting with a German couple, and the lady told us ruefully that when she arrived she had been clueless about how to go about gettiing an NIE number and registering as a resident. She'd been told of a German lady who could "help" her sort all this out, so she'd duly paid this person €150 to help get her NIE and another €200 to help her register as a resident. Now that's what I call daylight robbery for basically filling in two single sheet A4 forms which are not hard to understand even if you don't speak Spanish (use a dictionary or Google translate) and telling somebody what documents they need to have with them.


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## angkag (Oct 29, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> The culture of under declaring is still, apparently, widely tolerated and people like notaries complicit in it,


This is common practice in Costa Rica too. I knew of one case where there was a transaction between a lil' 'ol local lady and a foreigner where the transaction was grossly under-stated, something like a 250,000 dollar purchase was written down as a 50,000 one, with the other 200,000 being handed over in cash to avoid taxes.

Then said lil' 'ol lady took the foreigner to court saying she got diddled in selling her property by a nasty foreigner for only 50,000 when it was clearly worth much more. The court agreed and insisted the transaction be reversed, so the foreigner got his 50,000 back and the lil' 'ol lady and her lawyer took off into the sunset with their property back plus the 200,000......


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

angkag said:


> This is common practice in Costa Rica too. I knew of one case where there was a transaction between a lil' 'ol local lady and a foreigner where the transaction was grossly under-stated, something like a 250,000 dollar purchase was written down as a 50,000 one, with the other 200,000 being handed over in cash to avoid taxes.
> 
> Then said lil' 'ol lady took the foreigner to court saying she got diddled in selling her property by a nasty foreigner for only 50,000 when it was clearly worth much more. The court agreed and insisted the transaction be reversed, so the foreigner got his 50,000 back and the lil' 'ol lady and her lawyer took off into the sunset with their property back plus the 200,000......


Horrendous. I've seen things on TV about people who had bought property in France and because some law obliging the vendor to offer a property to a neighbouring landowner to give them the chance to buy it or have first refusal hadn't been followed, the actual purchaser who had bought in good faith was deemed not to have legal title to the property.

We had friends who bought a house here, for cash, many years ago when they literally could be bought for next to nothing. At the notary's office, the estate agent handed over one third of the price they had agreed to pay to the vendors (an old Spanish couple) and pocketed the other two-thirds as his commission. It was, apparently, the custom for agents to ask the vendors how much they wanted for their property and add on however much they thought they could get away with as their commission, especially if the buyer was a naive foreigner.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Yes, horrendous examples of what some people will do to get money from other people with zero conscience.

Could anyone just clarify for me how much and what a (non-resident) property seller can expect to pay out in Spain (as I may soon be in that position). Estate agent fees, legal fees (?) and taxes etc. My little bit of land isn't worth much so I'm also looking for any ways I could minimise my losses.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank B said:


> Yes, horrendous examples of what some people will do to get money from other people with zero conscience.
> 
> Could anyone just clarify for me how much and what a (non-resident) property seller can expect to pay out in Spain (as I may soon be in that position). Estate agent fees, legal fees (?) and taxes etc. My little bit of land isn't worth much so I'm also looking for any ways I could minimise my losses.


estate agent fees - you need to ask what their commission rate is before agreeing to them listing your property or signing a contract with them. Around here 5% is most common. That may be subject to negotiation.

legal fees - I didn't use a lawyer at all when I sold my house recently (it's much more important for a buyer to employ an independent lawyer).

The buyer pays the ITP (transfer tax), not the vendor. The buyer also pays the notary fees.

As a non-resident vendor, you would have 3% of the sale price witheld by the notary against any potential Capital Gains Tax liability (even if you sell at a loss). If the amount of the gain is under 3% or if no gain at all has been made, the 3% needs to be reclaimed from Hacienda (you may need a gestor or lawyer -but a gestor would be cheaper - to help you do this).

A vendor who is tax resident will not be subject to this 3% retention provided they have obtained a certificate of fiscal residency which they need to provide to the notary at the time of completion.

There may be a plus valia liability to the municipality. As I said before, this is based on the official increase in value of the land since the date of purchase. Nobody can tell you how much this is likely to be except your particular local authority. My own municipality has an online calculator which can be used to find out the liability in advance, I used it before selling my own house earlier this year and it was accurate, but I don't know if yours will have something similar, you would have to ask them. There was a legal ruling earlier this year that plus valia could not be charged if a property had been sold at a loss, irrespective of the "official" value, but as there is still some doubt as to the legal status of this ruling most local authorities are still saying the plus valia must be paid initially and may be claimed back at a later stage once this has been clarified.

Legally, whoever owns the property as at 1st January in the year of sale is liable to pay the IBI bill for the whole of that year, but it is now fairly common for the two parties to agree to split this bill proportionately. I did this both with the buyers of my house and the vendor of the new property I bought.

The vendor must settle any outstanding debts agaiinst the property (mortgages etc) and also any outstanding utility bills. The buyer's lawyer should ensure that these have been paid (or withold money to cover them) before completion.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Thanks Lynn, that's very helpful.

I take it the plus valia tax is the one that people evade when they declare a lower price on the paperwork? That seems to be the 10% I've been quoted, plus the 3% you mentioned. Would that then be 10% of the price increase (sale price minus purchase price) or 10% on the total property value at the point of sale?

Even 5% for the estate agent is huge commission compared to the UK. I think we'd have a go at marketing it ourselves first.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank B said:


> Thanks Lynn, that's very helpful.
> 
> I take it the plus valia tax is the one that people evade when they declare a lower price on the paperwork? That seems to be the 10% I've been quoted, plus the 3% you mentioned. Would that then be 10% of the price increase (sale price minus purchase price) or 10% on the total property value at the point of sale?
> 
> Even 5% for the estate agent is huge commission compared to the UK. I think we'd have a go at marketing it ourselves first.


It's a combination of the seller wanting to pay less Capital Gains Tax and the buyer wanting to pay less Transfer Tax which is the motivation for under declaring. But it can and does backfire because if Hacienda decide that the property changed hands for a price well below their "valor tasación" then they can and do issue demands for additional tax after completion has taken place.

The price declared on the paperwork doesn't affect the amount of plus valia at all. It is calculated purely on the official value - at least until the recent ruling I mentioned was made, to say that it shouldn't be charged if the property was sold for less than it was bought for. As I said, nobody can give you a figure for how much it is likely to be, because just like IBI, it varies enormously depending on which municipality it is in. It would be higher the longer someone has owned the property, whereas if a property is bought and sold within the same year there would be no plus valia liability. You need to consult your Ayuntamiento about that and ask them to give you a figure. They will need the catastral reference number to be able to do that.

Yes, estate agents' commission here is generally much higher than in the UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Frank B said:


> What's your experience of Poland in that regard mrypg9? My partner is Polish and we have considered Poland as an option (but not so much the winters!). Both of us, including my Polish partner, aren't well versed on how it works in Poland with regard to buying and selling property.


Warning: this is my subjective opinion based on my experiences! 

I have never bought property anywhere outside of the UK apart from Canada, a high- trust country, and we sold all our properties when we left the UK, partly to avoid the knd of hassle you experienced.
Yes, Polish winters can be brutal, like Czech winters but more so. My time in Poland was spent in Krakow, as you will know one of the most if not the most beautiful cities in Poland.
I found post- Communist Poland to be more open and entrepreneurial than the Czech Republic, in fact generally more in tune with 'western' commercial practice. Perhaps this is in part due to the fact that the Czech Republic has no coast, is landlocked. ( I first said that as a joke but came to think it true)
I found Czechs rigid and prone to take the view that 'we've always done it like this, why change?' whereas Poles are more open to innovation
Over my three years living in Prague I came to dislike many characteristics such as greed, envy, minor dishonesty and racism especially towards Roma and even began to think of them as national characteristics, so widespread were they.
But that's just my take on things.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

You might find this information on Capital Gains Tax useful.

Capital gains tax in Spain | Ábaco Advisers

And for plus valia:-

http://www.sisade.es/news/taxes-in-spain-what-is-the-plusvalia-tax


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Warning: this is my subjective opinion based on my experiences!
> 
> I have never bought property anywhere outside of the UK apart from Canada, a high- trust country, and we sold all our properties when we left the UK, partly to avoid the knd of hassle you experienced.
> Yes, Polish winters can be brutal, like Czech winters but more so. My time in Poland was spent in Krakow, as you will know one of the most if not the most beautiful cities in Poland.
> ...


I appreciate your candour. I've never been to the Czech Republic and only visited Poland last year with my partner (to meet her parents! But it went well :wacko. In two weeks I experienced Polish people (very generalised opinion here) as still retaining some of the community spirit and goodwill I remember from the 70s in the UK. But I also felt that it wouldn't last long with the influx of more and more western materialism, the disintegration of community etc - basically everything that's happened in the UK since the 70s.

I hate to say this, but I've now had more negative experiences of Spain than I've had positive ones since I bought my land. Yes that's partly down to my Pollyanna approach to the idea of living there, but also to do with some of the underhandedness and unreliability I came across in local estate agents and builders. So many were putting profit before people, and I hate that (another reason I tend to loathe banks and lawyers, particularly given the fees they expect). My whole view of Spain* has been soured of late and at the moment at least I'm doubtful I'll want to move there because of these experiences. It's difficult enough to take the leap into another country and culture with all the uncertainties, anxieties and risks involved, but when you start to have experiences that turn the excitement into dread then it's time to re-evaluate. And those negative experiences weren't all to do with the behaviour of Spaniards and the Spanish system; there were enough British ex-pats in the mix too and I've heard that some of them can be worse for ripping you off. Had I prepared myself for the jungle instead of some off-grid dream in the sun, I may have faired better.

Then again, I've also lived enough to know that no one country or culture is full or rogues. They're everywhere. The question is one of being skilful enough to recognise them and then deal with them whilst staying open to genuine decent folk.

* including many years of putting up with the deliberate aggro from the Spanish border agents at the Gibraltar border


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> You might find this information on Capital Gains Tax useful.
> 
> Capital gains tax in Spain | Ábaco Advisers
> 
> ...


Appreciated again Lynn, thank you.


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## John Seigal (Oct 21, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> she duly paid this person €150 to help get her NIE and another €200 to help her register as a resident.


My OH charges that and the people are very, very happy that they can get on with their life and not worry about "officialdom". 

I guess it just depends on your priorities in life.


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't find that there are more thieves in Spain than in the US. Making & taking money is a munch bigger obsession in the US. I wish more Spanish businesses actually did things to try to make more money (post their business hours somewhere, post the name of the business outside to be seen whether they are open or not, open and close at predictable hours). HOWEVER, everyone needs to realize when they are coming to a new country, the residents have their own norms and expectations of what reasonable business practices are. I have been shocked by some prices in Spain, but I imagine any foreigner would be shocked to see how much healthcare is in the US.

Any expat needs to do due diligence, and ask LOTS of questions of MANY different lawyers, fellow expats, etc. Whether I am installing cable, hiring a plumber, opening a bank account, buying an apartment, I think of all the things that can go wrong, all of the extra expenses that might come up, and ask all the questions I need to to make sure I know my case scenario. It has kept me from unpleasant surprises. The only downside is that I have talked to literally dozens of lawyers, accountants and banks, trying to weed through all the info. It can be time consuming.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

John Seigal said:


> My OH charges that and the people are very, very happy that they can get on with their life and not worry about "officialdom".
> 
> I guess it just depends on your priorities in life.


Anyone who charges €350 for a simple service that actually involves a charge of €10 is either shameless or so desperate for cash that they are prepared to take advantage of inexperienced people, probably most of them elderly retired folk.

I personally give such advice free and expect no more than a cup of coffee or a copa for my services.

But then my priority in life is to try to be helpful to fellow citizens before grabbing a few euros.

Different strokes for different folks, obviously.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Anyone who charges €350 for a simple service that actually involves a charge of €10 is either shameless or so desperate for cash that they are prepared to take advantage of inexperienced people, probably most of them elderly retired folk.
> 
> I personally give such advice free and expect no more than a cup of coffee or a copa for my services.
> 
> ...


I'm going wrong somewhere, Mary, I don't usually get so much as the cup of coffee or copa! With a couple of notable and much appreciated exceptions, I should say. 

Certainly does depend on what your priorities are.


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## 746786 (Dec 26, 2014)

*money and energy traps in Spain*

What people are talking about now is really my point about what I've found hard about Spain. The profit-before-people motive. I've found it in lots of places, but - in my own direct personal experience - probably with greater prevalence in Spain than other countries I've stayed in on my travels around the world. (Yes, of course you find it in every country, but I'm only talking about Spain because it's the one that's been most in my face.). I despise that motive wherever I find it, and it is so widespread in the world now. The point everyone's been making has been to make oneself as aware as possible of all of the money and energy traps there are when moving to Spain. The country may not be 'full of thieves' as suggested to me, but it isn't without it's pitfalls.

So with that in mind, if I were to cobble together a list of money and energy traps for the unsuspecting foreigner moving to Spain - again, based solely on my own personal experience and research - it would look like this so far:

- You can expect to pay tax on the sale of private property between private citizens e.g. land and cars
- You pay 10% tax on the value of the property you want to buy to the government
- You pay 3% additional tax if you are a non-resident
- You pay tax on any profit you make when selling a property
- If you win the lottery you'll be giving 20% of your winnings to the Federales
- If you get someone to help you fill out paperwork or a 'gestor' check carefully how much you're paying. It isn't unusual to be charged hundreds of euros for submitting paperwork that only costs 10 euros
- Lawyers and Notaries in Spain charge a fortune for conveyancing compared to the UK. At the time of writing I've been quoted 900 euros for the notary and over 1800 euros for the conveyancing lawyer and it doesn't seem to matter how little the property is worth e.g. on a bit of land valued at 10 000 euros expect to pay 4 000 in fees and taxes!!!!!
- Banks will charge you just for the privilege of your having an account with them, more if you are a non-resident. Sabadell will charge an average of 150 euros a year (including the tax certificate every two years) just for having an account.
- Estate agents will want to charge you around 5% of the value of the property for their service. This compared to 1.5% or less in the UK at the time of writing.
- If you want to import your vehicle to Spain expect it to be a convoluted process involving multiple trips to various agencies. It also appears to be potentially expensive and difficult and will likely require an engineer's report. 
- Caravans - unlike the UK - are also subject to yearly 'MoT' inspections which attract a fee for the inspection.
- You can expect yearly bills for water on your land even if you aren't connected to a water supply. The 'derramas' seems to be a standing charge just for having a water meter (located somewhere, not necessarily on your land)
- A 'water company' can be nothing more than a guy working out of his livingroom (SAT Ubeda as an example). They can also be quite brutal and uncooperative with the application of interest to unpaid bills e.g. in my case 149% interest added followed by every communication with him being ignored, including attempts by three separate translators!
- If you just want to live in peace on your land and the police show up because you haven't paid your water bills, NEVER ask to see their badges






- If you know someone who knows someone you're more likely to smooth out unhelpful bureaucracy in Spain (told to me by a Spanish friend and born out by my own experience). By contrast if someone who knows someone doesn't like you then you might expect life to be a bit more difficult than it has to be.
- Don't try to live independently or represent the will of the people, or the Federales will take your autonomy and power of self-determination away, deprive you of your freedom and put you in prison
- Oranges and lemons won't grow everywhere in Spain, so if you like your naranjas homegrown, check out the climate first! There's probably also a Naranja Tax for squeezing your own juice. :fish:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

For anyone who might be contemplating forking out a couple of hundred euros to some shark: herewith the tale of how I, newly arrived, knowing no Spanish, got my NIE at a total cost of 10 euros and about two hours of my time.

First of all, I asked on this Forum where, what and how and got the relevant information. Cost: nada.
Secondly, as instructed I downloaded the Solicitud from the 'stickies,' filled it in, gathered all the docs and photos, photocopies as advised by kind Forum members and trotted off to the Foreign Police in Estepona at the time I was told I should turn up.
Cost: nada.
Then I was given a numbered ticket and after about twenty minutes waiting was dealt with by a very pleasant woman who spoke fluent English although as I was in possession of everything required there wasn't much need for speech.
Cost: nada.
She sent me with a document to the nearest bank, five minutes away, where I paid 10 euros and got the paper stamped.
Cost: 10 euros.
I went back to the Police Office and handed over my stamped paper, was given my NIE and Residencia.
Cost: nada.

A posh English couple turned up with a lawyer ad went to the head of the queue. They were told to go away and queue up the next day like everyone else. The assorted foreigners waiting their turn clapped and whistled.

I appreciate that some Foreign Offices do things differently but the basic requirements are the same and you can do t all for free with the help of this Forum and its lovely generous members.
No need to put money into the pockets of desperate and greedy sharks whose ony 'skill' is seemingly that of conning the inexperienced and unnecessarily worried.


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

There are 'greedy sharks' in Spain who will get away with charging as much as they can, and whilst I sympathise with the posts predicatment, hiring a solicitor in the UK is no different. In the UK you would 'shop around' and find the best price suited to your needs. No difference in Spain IF you speak Spanish. In fact most Spaniards do not use a solicitor and just use the Notary.

To put things into perspective, here are some of the things that my husband encountered when he moved to the UK, that dont seem dissimilar to moving to Spain

You pay capital gains tax if you wish to buy a property at varying levels dependant on the size of the property 
You pay Council Tax, which for a Spaniard seems a significant amount compared to IBI (oh and the rubbish bins are not emptied every day)
You pay tax on any profit you make when selling a 2nd home (no different UK or Spain).
Banking is free, but a cup of coffee or packet of cigarettes costs a fortune!!!
If you need someone to help you with the language or translate documents you pay far more than if you are able to do this work yourself
If you want to import a Spanish vehicle to the UK, this is not a simple process and you will pay for the privilege.
You can expect annual water bills and electric bills even if you dont live in the property.
You should change your Spanish licence for a UK driving licence, but no one tells you this until you get stopped and fined by the UK police.
If you go to the Doctors/Hospital you are expected to speak English
Cars are subject to an annual costly MOT compared to 2 year inspections in Spain
If you need to renew your passport you need to do a 3 hour round trip to present yourself, in person to the Spanish Embassy (but they only open 10.00 to 5.00pm Monday to Friday), then when your new passport is ready you must make a second 3 hour round trip to the Spanish Embassy to collect it (but only 10.00 to 5pm Monday to Friday)






-


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> For anyone who might be contemplating forking out a couple of hundred euros to some shark: herewith the tale of how I, newly arrived, knowing no Spanish, got my NIE at a total cost of 10 euros and about two hours of my time.
> 
> First of all, I asked on this Forum where, what and how and got the relevant information. Cost: nada.
> Secondly, as instructed I downloaded the Solicitud from the 'stickies,' filled it in, gathered all the docs and photos, photocopies as advised by kind Forum members and trotted off to the Foreign Police in Estepona at the time I was told I should turn up.
> ...


I couldn't agree more. To my mind, the biggest "hassle" about obtaining either an NIE or signing on the register of foreign residents is having to get up early and queue up at the Extranjeria (unless you are lucky and your local one operates on a cita previa basis). Even if you pay some shyster a fortune for their help, you still have to go to the Extranjeria in person and wait (albeit accompanied by them), so why pay out hundreds of euros when all you are really saving yourself is about half an hour's time at most in downloading extremely simple forms and filling them in. As you say, there is plenty of free advice available for people who need it.

When I went to the Extranjeria yesterday, two out of the three people on duty at the "Extranjeros" desk spoke fluent English - that's a first for me, I had never seen English speaking staff working there before. 

By the way, the fee has now gone up to €10.71 (it was €10.60 the last time I was there, in 2016).


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank B said:


> - You pay 10% tax on the value of the property you want to buy to the government
> - You pay 3% additional tax if you are a non-resident
> - You pay tax on any profit you make when selling a property
> 
> - Banks will charge you just for the privilege of your having an account with them, more if you are a non-resident. Sabadell will charge an average of 150 euros a year (including the tax certificate every two years) just for having an account.


A few points, just to avoid misleading people.

The amount of transfer tax payable on purchasing a property varies between the autonomous regions so it isn't correct to give a blanket figure of 10%. In Andalucia, for example, it is 8% for properties up to a value of €400k.

You don't pay 3% additional Capital Gains Tax if you are a non resident. What I told you was that as a non resident you have 3% witheld from the sale proceeds against any CGT liability. If the gain is less than that you can reclaim the difference, or if you did not make a gain at all you can reclaim all of the 3%. A resident who sells a propeprty still has to pay CGT but that is dealt with via their annual tax return and they would end up payiing the same as a non resident in the end.

If you are a resident, almost every bank these days will have an account which is free of charges providing you have a certain amount paid into it each month. I have a Sabadell Expansion account which requires a minimum of €700 to be paid in monthly, and there are no account maintenance fees, charges for debit/credit cards or commissions, and I get 1% back on direct debit payments for utility bills.

If you want to offer helpful advice to potential buyers/emigrants to Spain, it really has to be accurate.

Oh, and if you own a property in the UK and don't live in it, you still have to pay electricity and water bills for the standing charges.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chica22 said:


> There are 'greedy sharks' in Spain who will get away with charging as much as they can, and whilst I sympathise with the posts predicatment, hiring a solicitor in the UK is no different. In the UK you would 'shop around' and find the best price suited to your needs. No difference in Spain IF you speak Spanish. In fact most Spaniards do not use a solicitor and just use the Notary.
> 
> To put things into perspective, here are some of the things that my husband encountered when he moved to the UK, that dont seem dissimilar to moving to Spain
> 
> ...


I expect Spanish citizens who move to the UK also find it a shock that if they rent a property they as the tenant will be responsible for paying the Council Tax bill in addition to the rent, rather than the IBI being paid by the landlord.

If they wish to obtain a registration certificate to prove they are resident in the UK, they may find it strange and very expensive that rather than attending an office in person, paying €10.71 and receiving the certificate there and then, they must apply online, pay a fee of 65 pounds and send their supporting documents (including their passport) off in the post and be without them potentially for several weeks until they are returned.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Frank B said:


> -
> - Lawyers and Notaries in Spain charge a fortune for conveyancing compared to the UK. At the time of writing I've been quoted 900 euros for the notary and over 1800 euros for the conveyancing lawyer and it doesn't seem to matter how little the property is worth e.g. on a bit of land valued at 10 000 euros expect to pay 4 000 in fees and taxes!!!!!


I'm not sure why this is still an issue. As I said yesterday, the buyer of a property pays the notary fees, not the vendor. As the vendor you do not need to use a lawyer to sell at all, if you don't want to (although if you are not going to be in the country you may want to give them power of attorney to deal with it on your behalf, which will certainly incur a higher fee). I sold my house in May and did not use a lawyer nor a gestor, just the estate agent, and it was not a problem at all.


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