# new to here.



## jonseer

Hi All. Just registered on your site in view of the blackmail you guys are getting over your local bank accounts. 
I live in ,and am a resident of Portugal, have been for over 20 years. I am wondering if what is happening to you, if it is ratified tomorrow, is perhaps a dress rehearsal for a possible euro opt out for the weaker economies such as Portugal whose social fabric is not able to stand the strains of this austerity.
Personal tax allowances here have been reduced considerably this year.
We live in interesting times.


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## oronero

For those of us who are unaware of what is happening please elaborate.

I hope they are not doing what the Cypriot Government have just done to their savers...levied up to 9.9% against an individuals savings in exchange for shares in the troubled banks!


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## travelling-man

As I see it, and at the risk of stating the obvious, Cyprus have now set a precedent that just might be followed by other Euro countries & I for one won't consider keeping any more money in my Portuguese account than I possibly have to & any large payments I might have to make will be direct from my UK offshore account.

This is nothing short of Zimbabwe style piracy & will undermine the entire worldwide banking system.

I'm only surprised the victims haven't rioted yet.


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## jonseer

Sorry Oronero, I should make myself clearer.

I was saying that I wondered if the theft of 6.7 and 10% from bank accounts in Cypriot banks is not a dummy run for a Euro exit in the future for those Med countries unable to tolerate the cost of austerity. For example. If Portugal were to re-introduce the Escudo which they left in favour of the Euro around 1998/2000, much against the wishes of a large number of it's citizens. How would they carry out this operation ? 
Well possibly in the same way as is being done to avoid bankruptcy by the Cypriot banks. 
During a long weekend the banks would shut up shop & by Tuesday start of business all accounts holding Euros would find them converted into Escudos. But the Escudos would be possibly 75% of the value of the Euro. That is an effective 25% devaluation. The Escudo would then be allowed to float and find its own value on the markets. This lower currency value would make exports cheaper & hopefully lead to higher employment. I am of course referring to Portugal here.
We will wait and see.


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## jonseer

travelling-man said:


> As I see it, and at the risk of stating the obvious, Cyprus have now set a precedent that just might be followed by other Euro countries & I for one won't consider keeping any more money in my Portuguese account than I possibly have to & any large payments I might have to make will be direct from my UK offshore account.
> 
> This is nothing short of Zimbabwe style piracy & will undermine the entire worldwide banking system.


Likewise travelling man. UK premium bonds are a better bet and they yield little, but if you buy 10 you have ten left next year, the euro is now casino banking.


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## titania

Question. So cash deposits in Cyprus are going to get stolen to the tune of 6.75% under 100'000 and 9.9% over this sum. This is for cash. What about such amounts, but in shares and bonds instead of cash?


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## travelling-man

We had a Cyprus account for several years & I'm helluva glad to say we closed just 6 weeks ago because we decided it was unnecessary........... phew!


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## titania

jonseer said:


> Sorry Oronero, I should make myself clearer.
> 
> I was saying that I wondered if the theft of 6.7 and 10% from bank accounts in Cypriot banks is not a dummy run for a Euro exit in the future for those Med countries unable to tolerate the cost of austerity. For example. If Portugal were to re-introduce the Escudo which they left in favour of the Euro around 1998/2000, much against the wishes of a large number of it's citizens. How would they carry out this operation ?
> Well possibly in the same way as is being done to avoid bankruptcy by the Cypriot banks.
> During a long weekend the banks would shut up shop & by Tuesday start of business all accounts holding Euros would find them converted into Escudos. But the Escudos would be possibly 75% of the value of the Euro. That is an effective 25% devaluation. The Escudo would then be allowed to float and find its own value on the markets. This lower currency value would make exports cheaper & hopefully lead to higher employment. I am of course referring to Portugal here.
> We will wait and see.


I have to admit I asked myself a similar question, but did not push the reasoning as far as you. I thought this may have been a dummy run to see if the people would swallow it quietly or, if not, just how much police would be needed to quell riots. Also, to see what would happen if their Parliament refused to ratify the EU decision and the country went totally bankrupt as a result. Also to measure the size of bank runs on ATMs in Cyprus (since electronic transfers have been blocked) and consequent bank runs in other countries, size of the appreciation of the Swiss Franc and Nordic currencies, and the price of gold and silver.

A sort of test tube experiment, from which to draw lessons and conclusions on what measures may be applied to Italy, Portugal and Spain...


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## travelling-man

Makes you wonder why banksters & politicians don't have a bounty on their heads! LOL


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## BodgieMcBodge

*an aside*

Note. UK Premium bonds can cause problem (probate) as being in one name cannot be transferred for another name not like cash, bank account etc.




jonseer said:


> Likewise travelling man. UK premium bonds are a better bet and they yield little, but if you buy 10 you have ten left next year, the euro is now casino banking.


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## oronero

Well the Cypriots have done it, though it should be noted that their hands were forced by those that are giving them bail-out money.

I have no doubt that there will be people withdrawing funds from their banks wherever they are domiciled. The banking sector will see another crisis, how stupid are those that imposed these conditions upon the Cypriot Governmnt...so short sighted!

This is a lesson to all those that have got money in banks that their funds are not necessarily safe there!


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## oronero

jonseer said:


> Likewise travelling man. UK premium bonds are a better bet and they yield little, but if you buy 10 you have ten left next year, the euro is now casino banking.


I would remove funds from the UK also, things are not so 'rosey' here either!

Prepare for some very difficult times ahead...if you have a garden I suggest that you start planting things that you can eat later and possibly get some chickens!


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## travelling-man

I'm astounded the Cypriot Govt didn't just refuse to do it & instead threaten to pull out of the Euro.


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## titania

travelling-man said:


> Makes you wonder why banksters & politicians don't have a bounty on their heads! LOL


Ahem, I wonder what kind of skills the Russian money launderers with money in Cyprus possess? Extended capabilities in shooting and poisoning far away from motherland, perhaps? I guess some of these banksters & politicians better up their protection teams and life insurances.


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## titania

oronero said:


> I would remove funds from the UK also, things are not so 'rosey' here either!
> 
> Prepare for some very difficult times ahead...if you have a garden I suggest that you start planting things that you can eat later and possibly get some chickens!


Does one need a permit to dig a well/borehole in Portugal/Algarve? I looked at real estate properties, but apart from ruins, could not see many liveable houses with water wells. Going somewhat self-sufficient implies having water. One can do without electricity but not without water.


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## jonseer

Thanks for that info. 
Joint names ?


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## jonseer

I wonder what conversations are going on tonight between Russian deposit holders and Cypriot politicians ?


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## jonseer

Yes you need a local permit to extract water or create a cess -pit ( fossa).


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## oronero

The Governments want all transactions done with money, no bartering because it makes tax collection difficult and they want to make society operate cashless, by making all transaction electronic and thus easier to keep a track on us.

Well Banks began as a business that would keep our funds secure, that's why they had huge safes...everybody has seen them in the 'Western's'.

So if society does become cashless, why do we need banks? There will be nothing to keep safe apart from an electronic indication of something that no longer exists. 

In a way I kind of hope that the whole system goes 'tits-up'! I never thought that humans could be so stupid...it seems that the longer we are on this earth the quicker we are trying to reach the demise of our society as we know it.

Have these people never played 'Monopoly'...don't they realize that when one person has gained all the money from the other players that the game is over?


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## jonseer

Cannot quarrel with that. This year the Portuguese government has decreed that ALL outlets must give receipts and that the individual " numero fiscal", this is the taxation ID you are supplied with when you come to Portugal , must be on them. Furthermore the individual must keep the receipt and if asked for it present it to the Police. However as the Police cannot search you without just cause, you can put it in your pocket and refuse to give it up. Just another piece of knee jerk legislation to close the door after the horse has bolted. But as you say the whole system will be down to 3 amp signals one day.
Euro already down one centimo against the GBP at 0730hrs.


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## canoeman

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Note. UK Premium bonds can cause problem (probate) as being in one name cannot be transferred for another name not like cash, bank account etc.


But they can stay in the draw for 1 year after death and any winning is still tax free they are then transferred to whoever is the inheritor of estate, I doubt very much that Portugal will follow Cyprus's route, which was brought about by a very different set of circumstances, dubious money being one and Greece's economic woes being other, but with current crisis we've limited the funds we keep in our Portuguese banks and only transfer in as and when we need.

Portugal has done a similar thing in a couple of one off taxes on salaries which probably amounted to same


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## canoeman

titania said:


> Does one need a permit to dig a well/borehole in Portugal/Algarve? I looked at real estate properties, but apart from ruins, could not see many liveable houses with water wells. Going somewhat self-sufficient implies having water. One can do without electricity but not without water.


Yes


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