# Retiring to Italy



## sobemike

I'm a UK/US dual national of 100% Italian ancestry. However, my mother was born after my grandfather became a US citizen. All of my other grandparents were born in the US to Italian immigrants. Since I might no longer be able to count on being able to live in Italy because I hold a British passport due to BREXIT, I'm wondering if I can qualify for an ancestry Italian passport. Has anybody, American or British, tried this?

Regards,

Mike


----------



## Italia-Mx

What about your father's side that immigrated to the USA? You would have to obtain your great-grand-father's birth certificate from Italy and then find out when he naturalized in the USA. If it was before your grand-father's birth, then you would have the same situation as with your mother's father and it would make you ineligible. If your grand-father was born before his father naturalized, you would be good to go.


----------



## sobemike

Italia-Mx said:


> What about your father's side that immigrated to the USA? You would have to obtain your great-grand-father's birth certificate from Italy and then find out when he naturalized in the USA. If it was before your grand-father's birth, then you would have the same situation as with your mother's father and it would make you ineligible. If your grand-father was born before his father naturalized, you would be good to go.


In 2013 I visited the village my great grandfather was born, Pozzilli Molise, but unfortunately could find no record of his birth. So, that is a dead end. My father maternal grandfather was born in Forio, Iscia. Perhaps I could try there. I shall be retiring in a few years and will probably return to Blighty.


----------



## Italia-Mx

If you go through your father's maternal line, you could run into an ineligibility because an Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her offspring who were born before 1948. Its best to go through your paternal line and to look again for that great-grandfather's birth information.


----------



## sobemike

Italia-Mx said:


> If you go through your father's maternal line, you could run into an ineligibility because an Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her offspring who were born before 1948. Its best to go through your paternal line and to look again for that great-grandfather's birth information.


I think my best hope is a BREXIT agreement that allows UK citizens to reside in Italy. I'm also investigating retiring to Armenia. Even though I have zero Armenian ancestry, the Armenian immigration laws are much less strict than the Italian. I've visited Yerevan twice and think I could happily live there. I'd have to learn Russian and Armenian, but since I don't know any Italian, that's not much of a disadvantage. I haven't retired yet, but am on my fourth country due to my job. So, I'm used to changing countries and have learned to always have a backup plan.


----------



## panama rick

Hi Mike. It's always better to go through the paternal side. If parents, grandparents etc. were born after naturalization, then that's a deal breaker. But it's not your only option. My wife and I just completed her citizenship process through her grandmother because we could not locate a marriage certificate. The Italian courts now look more favorably on the maternal side, but it's a much longer and expensive process. It took us 2 1/2 years and an attorney. In the end she was given an Italian birth certificate and all the requisite papers from the courts. If you're interested I can give you the name of our attorney as he has an extensive track record in this area. Best, Rick


----------



## NickZ

It's possible maybe likely that post brexit the rules grandfather current residents. Not future ones. That means even if they allow (likely/almost certain) current residents to stay that doesn't mean new ones will.

Second problem is it sounds like you aren't in the UK now and likely don't have an UK pension. Even under the current rules you'd have to get health insurance.


----------



## janilee

We are going through this right now. My husband's grandfather renounced his Italian citizenship, to keep his job, after my husband's mother was born. There is no record that she ever renounced her Italian citizenship. She probably never knew she had it in the first place. Still, there is much reluctance to allow citizenship through jure sanguinis because of the renunciation. We will continue to pursue it but, as our handy advisor reminded us, if you really want to be an Italian citizen, you can still get your residency (primary) and wait out the ten years until citizenship is automatic. You must keep your U.S. passport current and use it to travel, but you can travel freely on it without interrupting your waiting period to become a citizen.


----------



## NickZ

janilee said:


> , if you really want to be an Italian citizen, you can still get your residency (primary) and wait out the ten years until citizenship is automatic. You must keep your U.S. passport current and use it to travel, but you can travel freely on it without interrupting your waiting period to become a citizen.


It's not automatic. You can apply to naturalize at that point.

BUT LEGGE 5 febbraio 1992, n. 91 - Nuove norme sulla cittadinanza.

Art. 4. "1. Lo straniero o l'apolide, del quale il padre o la madre o uno degli ascendenti in linea retta di secondo grado sono stati cittadini per nascita, diviene cittadino:"

Paragraph b "c) se, al raggiungimento della maggiore età, risiede legalmente da almeno due anni nel territorio della Repubblica e dichiara, entro un anno dal raggiungimento, di voler acquistare la cittadinanza italiana."

So if either your parent or grandparent was Italian and you've lived legally in Italy for two years that year you can apply.

If I'm understanding your situation you have an Italian grandfather. At the two year point you should be able to apply under that section


----------



## SonofanItalian

NickZ said:


> It's not automatic. You can apply to naturalize at that point.
> 
> BUT LEGGE 5 febbraio 1992, n. 91 - Nuove norme sulla cittadinanza.
> 
> Art. 4. "1. Lo straniero o l'apolide, del quale il padre o la madre o uno degli ascendenti in linea retta di secondo grado sono stati cittadini per nascita, diviene cittadino:"
> 
> Paragraph b "c) se, al raggiungimento della maggiore età, risiede legalmente da almeno due anni nel territorio della Repubblica e dichiara, entro un anno dal raggiungimento, di voler acquistare la cittadinanza italiana."
> 
> So if either your parent or grandparent was Italian and you've lived legally in Italy for two years that year you can apply.
> 
> If I'm understanding your situation you have an Italian grandfather. At the two year point you should be able to apply under that section


The OP almost sounds like situation. Both Italian grandparents and mother were born in Italy, came to the US and grandparents renounced their citizenship(1935) and because my mother was a minor (born 1920) she was made a citizen of the US. I was born after 1948. 

I contacted an Italian attorney courtesy of Rick, he said I could not apply for an Italian passport due to my situation. So my way into the country would be through an Elective Residency visa. Much harder due to the financial requirements. However if I understand you correctly, I can apply for citizenship after 2 years? That could work. 

Another question if my great grandparents never left italy, could I use them for an Italian passport?

Thank you 
Ray


----------



## NickZ

It's only two degrees of separation. You need either a parent or grandparent born Italian citizens. If you have one then you have an easier to path to naturalization.


----------



## Italia-Mx

janilee said:


> We are going through this right now. My husband's grandfather renounced his Italian citizenship, to keep his job, after my husband's mother was born. There is no record that she ever renounced her Italian citizenship. She probably never knew she had it in the first place. Still, there is much reluctance to allow citizenship through jure sanguinis because of the renunciation. We will continue to pursue it but, as our handy advisor reminded us, if you really want to be an Italian citizen, you can still get your residency (primary) and wait out the ten years until citizenship is automatic. You must keep your U.S. passport current and use it to travel, but you can travel freely on it without interrupting your waiting period to become a citizen.


Wait out the ten years where? In the USA? No deal. If you are not qualified for citizenship via jure sanguinis, you still have a pathway to naturalization because you have a parent who was born in Italy but in order to do so you must apply for and be granted an elective residency visa to live permanently in Italy. After three years (not ten), you will be allowed to apply for naturalization. However, foreigners on elective residency visas are not allowed to work during that three year period.


----------



## Italia-Mx

SonofanItalian said:


> I contacted an Italian attorney courtesy of Rick, he said I could not apply for an Italian passport due to my situation. So my way into the country would be through an Elective Residency visa. Much harder due to the financial requirements. However if I understand you correctly, I can apply for citizenship after 2 years? That could work.
> 
> Another question if my great grandparents never left italy, could I use them for an Italian passport?
> 
> Thank you
> Ray


On an elective residency visa, you can apply to be naturalized after THREE years, not two. Also great-grandparents never leaving Italy won't help. Bloodline was broken when grand-parents naturalized.


----------



## SonofanItalian

Italia-Mx said:


> On an elective residency visa, you can apply to be naturalized after THREE years, not two. Also great-grandparents never leaving Italy won't help. Bloodline was broken when grand-parents naturalized.


This forum is a wealth of knowledge! 
Thank you


----------



## NickZ

You apply after two years. You qualify after three. There are people that have been denied becaused they wait to apply until after three years. Go read the law.



> a almeno due anni nel territorio della Repubblica e dichiara, entro un anno dal raggiungimento


----------



## maunaloan

panama rick said:


> Hi Mike. It's always better to go through the paternal side. If parents, grandparents etc. were born after naturalization, then that's a deal breaker. But it's not your only option. My wife and I just completed her citizenship process through her grandmother because we could not locate a marriage certificate. The Italian courts now look more favorably on the maternal side, but it's a much longer and expensive process. It took us 2 1/2 years and an attorney. In the end she was given an Italian birth certificate and all the requisite papers from the courts. If you're interested I can give you the name of our attorney as he has an extensive track record in this area. Best, Rick



Mike; check out the church records in the birth city...all births were recorded in the church. If it's still standing....and/or the Commune. Do it for both sides of your family. I don't know if it would be worth your while to move to Italy.....I live here, But that being said .....you might decide to move from Rome northwards.......worth you while to spend some time here before you move or search.... Armenia? really ? Buona fortuna!


----------



## Dunkel25

NickZ said:


> It's only two degrees of separation. You need either a parent or grandparent born Italian citizens. If you have one then you have an easier to path to naturalization.


My ex-wife's grandmother was Italian born. We have two children together...is there some way to get our kids citizenship?


----------



## Italia-Mx

If your children are minors, their mother will have to be recognized first. To start you will need all vital records (birth, marriage, naturalization info) for your ex-wife's grandmother.


----------



## Dunkel25

Italia-Mx said:


> If your children are minors, their mother will have to be recognized first. To start you will need all vital records (birth, marriage, naturalization info) for your ex-wife's grandmother.


They are minors. I will contact their mother and try to get all the relevant information. 

Thanks!


----------



## craig76

Hi, I just joined. My wife found out that her mother was born before her grandfather became a naturalized US citizen. Since my wife was born after 1948, she is planning to apply for Italian citizenship through her mother. We have not yet started the process of gathering the paperwork. Our children are young adults, they wish to apply, too. I would need to be brought in as the spouse of a citizen. Unfortunately, my wife's mother passed away last year, so there is no attestation she could make about not renouncing citizenship. We are pretty certain that she never knew that she was eligible. It's a little discouraging to hear that the maternal line is more time-consuming. We would all apply together, along with my wife's nieces & her brother (the girls are in their 20's, like our kids). I realize that the Italian state wouldn't necessarily be keen about taking on 60 year olds, but do you think that adding our children to the application would make a difference?


----------



## NickZ

Nobody cares about your ages. All that matters is are you citizens or not. I wouldn't personally submit everybody at once. Submit the oldest one. The children etc will only have to submit paperwork related to that person. If you submit everybody at once I wouldn't be surprised if you'd need to submit full packages for each of them going back all the way to the last recognized Italian citizen.


----------



## panama rick

Ditto on what Nick said about age. I do disagree regarding submitting everyone at the same time. My wife and I just completed this same process (through her grandmother). Our attorney asked us if any other family members wanted to apply at the same time as it would cut down on the overall cost. They would have to supply their individual paperwork to show the ancestry link, but the basic paperwork about her grandmother would apply to everyone. Also the issue of her grandmother renouncing her Italian citizenship was never a factor. Get an attorney. Good luck.


----------



## NickZ

panama rick said:


> Dit but the basic paperwork about her grandmother would apply to everyone..



The moment the mother has her citizenship recognized she becomes the last citizen. The kids no longer need to go back to the grandmother.


----------



## panama rick

I agree Nick about the mother's children. I was referring to brother and nieces.


----------



## craig76

Thanks, gentlemen. Any advice on how to start preparing for a transition? Wife and I haven't been to Italy in many years. We will need to ramp up our Italian language skills of course, but I was wondering if there was anything else that you would suggest. Is there any way to check if some of the prescriptions we take for some chronic conditions (asthma, allergies, etc) are also commonly prescribed in Italy? 

(btw, it looks like my wife, her brother and a cousin will split the cost of an attorney; seven of their kids will be part of the package, as well as 3 infants & 4 spouses. The oldest generation have the same grandfather). Looking through the documents on grandmother & grandfather, there are at least 5 different variations of name spelling or Anglicization. I'm assuming that this was fairly common, but will this be a problem? Has anyone dealt with this issue?


----------



## NickZ

Ask your doctor for the generic name of the drugs. Some times the brand name changes. 

Other then that start thinking about where you want to live. What you're interested in doing once you arrive. Basically define things well. Then spend a winter there before you move


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Italia-Mx said:


> What about your father's side that immigrated to the USA? You would have to obtain your great-grand-father's birth certificate from Italy and then find out when he naturalized in the USA. If it was before your grand-father's birth, then you would have the same situation as with your mother's father and it would make you ineligible. If your grand-father was born before his father naturalized, you would be good to go.


By "naturalized," do you mean becoming a U.S. citizen?

I have no idea but can find out if my mother was born before either her Italian born mother and father became citizens, but if that is the case, I can claim Italian citizenship? I'm living in Thailand but want to move on.

If I'm eligible for Italian citizenship, would I have access to the Italian health care system as an old guy who never paid into it? Can I join by paying something? Thanks.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

sobemike said:


> In 2013 I visited the village my great grandfather was born, Pozzilli Molise, but unfortunately could find no record of his birth. So, that is a dead end. My father maternal grandfather was born in Forio, Iscia. Perhaps I could try there. I shall be retiring in a few years and will probably return to Blighty.


Did you check church records? That's who kept track of marriages, births and deaths before late 19th century. My brother traced our maternal grandparents' ancestors back to 16th century, all through church records. That was in the north, in a village near Torino.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Italia-Mx said:


> If you go through your father's maternal line, you could run into an ineligibility because an Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her offspring who were born before 1948. Its best to go through your paternal line and to look again for that great-grandfather's birth information.


Thanks for that qualification. As well as tracing our maternal grandparents back to 16th century via church records, my family found the name of ships and date of each arrival on Ellis Island and date they were allowed into U.S. 

So the crucial date I need is date my grandfather became a U.S. citizen? Date of grandmother immaterial? Did whatever US immigration service was called ever put online when immigrants sworn in as citizens? Or do we have to put in written requests?

Then you say only male line is used, it doesn't matter that I would be seeking from grandfather (Italian born) to mother (US born, deceased) to me? Thanks.


----------



## Italia-Mx

You cannot skip generations. If your wife's grand-father was the Italian ancestor, depending on when he naturalized, he would have passed Italian citizenship to his children. If he passed it to a daughter, that daughter could only pass it to her own offspring who were born after 1948. What you have described has skipped a generation. If you present a timeline here, I can help you more.


----------



## Italia-Mx

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Thanks for that qualification. As well as tracing our maternal grandparents back to 16th century via church records, my family found the name of ships and date of each arrival on Ellis Island and date they were allowed into U.S.
> 
> So the crucial date I need is date my grandfather became a U.S. citizen? Date of grandmother immaterial? Did whatever US immigration service was called ever put online when immigrants sworn in as citizens? Or do we have to put in written requests?
> 
> Then you say only male line is used, it doesn't matter that I would be seeking from grandfather (Italian born) to mother (US born, deceased) to me? Thanks.


You have to apply to get the naturalization records. They are not online for anyone to look at. Also grand-father to mother to you will only work if your mother was born after 1948, however citizenship with this kind of case can be obtained through an Italian court and an attorney. It's also considerably more costly.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Italia-Mx said:


> You have to apply to get the naturalization records. They are not online for anyone to look at. Also grand-father to mother to you will only work if your mother was born after 1948, however citizenship with this kind of case can be obtained through an Italian court and an attorney. It's also considerably more costly.


Thanks.


----------



## panama rick

You can get naturalization records through the US citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS). We just completed the process through my wife's grandmother. If you go through the maternal side it will take about 1 to 2 years, closer to two.


----------



## craig76

NickZ said:


> Ask your doctor for the generic name of the drugs. Some times the brand name changes.
> 
> Other then that start thinking about where you want to live. What you're interested in doing once you arrive. Basically define things well. Then spend a winter there before you move


I'm curious about the winter stay recommendation. We're from the Chicago area, and used to cold weather - I know that winters in Italy can have a damp cold that can be bone chilling. Or, were you pointing out the contrast between tourist season and 'real life'? 

Speaking of winter activities - my wife enjoys her book club, does that sort of thing exist? Do you think that she could get any traction with trying to start one? How easy is it to get to know people well enough where they would be receptive to this? Do you think this could be appealing to Italians who would like to read and discuss English-language literature?

In short, how open are Italians (city vs small town) to making connections and friendships with foreigners (and by definition) non-family members?


----------



## NickZ

craig76 said:


> Or, were you pointing out the contrast between tourist season and 'real life'?
> 
> Speaking of winter activities - my wife enjoys her book club, does that sort of thing exist? Do you think that she could get any traction with trying to start one? How easy is it to get to know people well enough where they would be receptive to this? Do you think this could be appealing to Italians who would like to read and discuss English-language literature?
> 
> In short, how open are Italians (city vs small town) to making connections and friendships with foreigners (and by definition) non-family members?


Yes. Smaller towns especially can be different off season. But don't assume the weather won't be an issue. In Chicago 30 cm of snow will cause few problems. Here 10 cm will block everything. Normal winters may not be that bad but once a decade storms will cause problems you wouldn't expect. 

The other question will also depend on the town. Smaller towns will have less English speakers and will be harder. 

One issue you'll face is people have there own lives. Work families etc. So even if people are more then willing to be friendly you'll need to squeeze into lives that are already full.


----------



## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Yes. Smaller towns especially can be different off season. But don't assume the weather won't be an issue. In Chicago 30 cm of snow will cause few problems. Here 10 cm will block everything. Normal winters may not be that bad but once a decade storms will cause problems you wouldn't expect.
> 
> The other question will also depend on the town. Smaller towns will have less English speakers and will be harder.
> 
> One issue you'll face is people have there own lives. Work families etc. So even if people are more then willing to be friendly you'll need to squeeze into lives that are already full.


Yes PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take note of what Nick is saying. Winter in Italy (and especially smaller towns) is very very different and you need to be prepared for it. Coming from the UK and all of our wonderful drainage systems driving in rain is not an issue but here the water can build up! That is before we even get to the snow!

One thing that always makes me chuckle on forums is the amount of people who say "We are thinking of moving to Italy, Spain, France, Outer Mongolia.. We are going to have a week over there in June to see how we like it and then make our decision"..... YOU LEARN NOTHING IN SUMMER!!! 

Speaking purely from a Sicilian output the idea of book clubs isn't really here even though I could imagine it fitting into the culture very nicely. My recomendation would be before coming over and inviting people into what you want to do, try and be a part of what is already happening. You will gain a lot more friends this was as (again sicilians) are very proud of what they do and want to invite you into it.

I hope there is some good advice in there somewhere.

Kenzo


----------



## craig76

Kenzo & Nick, thanks for the clarifications and additional info. I had not considered drainage! 

I grew up in Germany and France ('58-'72) as an Army brat, but lived off-base. So I have some understanding of how I will need to restrain my 'Americanisms'. I will be ignorant of some cultural norms, and I was wondering if any of you had encountered any which do not show up in the usual guide books. I remember my Mom asking one of her French acquaintances several times for a recipe of something she had made - and finally realizing that maybe that asking that kind of favor was a little too intimate for the relationship. 

We aren't planning to move for at least 3 years, and I was wondering what sort of ways you might use that time to prepare for the relocation? Any threads in this forum you would recommend? 

Kenzo, my wife's ancestors left Sicily (Roccamena) in the early 1900's, so it would be interesting to explore the island & potential family connections. However, one of the reasons they left was because of the Mafia (no specific reason was passed down). Looking at the town using Google, it looks pretty poor - is the Mafia still a problem in that area? Otherwise, what are your favorite things about living in Sicily? I imagine it might be less expensive than northern Italy, is that the case? 

Again, many thanks for all of the insights!


----------



## NickZ

Start making a list of things you use every day and can't live without. Then check how easy it will be to replace them. If it's something like food possibly think about replacements. 

Outside of taking some language courses there isn't a lot you can do from home. At least I can't think of anything. There are things you might miss. If you're a photographer you will miss B&H in NYC and KEH. If you have a different hobby check if there will be an issue. You might want to stock up on something. Or maybe you'll find it easier here.

Problem is most of that stuff you can only figure out afterwards.


----------



## KenzoXIV

craig76 said:


> Kenzo & Nick, thanks for the clarifications and additional info. I had not considered drainage!
> 
> I grew up in Germany and France ('58-'72) as an Army brat, but lived off-base. So I have some understanding of how I will need to restrain my 'Americanisms'. I will be ignorant of some cultural norms, and I was wondering if any of you had encountered any which do not show up in the usual guide books. I remember my Mom asking one of her French acquaintances several times for a recipe of something she had made - and finally realizing that maybe that asking that kind of favor was a little too intimate for the relationship.
> 
> We aren't planning to move for at least 3 years, and I was wondering what sort of ways you might use that time to prepare for the relocation? Any threads in this forum you would recommend?
> 
> Kenzo, my wife's ancestors left Sicily (Roccamena) in the early 1900's, so it would be interesting to explore the island & potential family connections. However, one of the reasons they left was because of the Mafia (no specific reason was passed down). Looking at the town using Google, it looks pretty poor - is the Mafia still a problem in that area? Otherwise, what are your favorite things about living in Sicily? I imagine it might be less expensive than northern Italy, is that the case?
> 
> Again, many thanks for all of the insights!


First reply using my mobile... Let's see how it goes!

First of all the mafia of the early 1900's isn't the Mafia of today. Is there still a problem.. Yes of course there is all over Italy, but it's no different to any other group of this nature in any other country. You won't see it on a day to day basis but the affects of it are all around. I personally wouldn't choose to live around Corleone however, any more than I would choose to live at the foot of Etna.. 

Sicily as an island and as a population are quite poor, not in anyway meant offensively but it is the reality, work is hard to come by and those lucky enough to find it are on low incomes.

Costs wise Sicily is fortunate for an island in a sense that it is relatively self sufficient due to its size and even the things it can't produce are only a 30min boat ride away.

Petrol I would imagine is more expensive here than the north but on my travels around the north I did notice things were more expensive slightly.

Rents and property prices will always be cheaper down here.

What do I love about Sicily:

The diversity in scenery, the food is amazing as it is a mix of Italian, Greek, Arabic and African palettes, the laid back attitude, even if people are stressed about money, and just that down here you are left to live your life a bit more than up north. When I was up north I got two speeding fines within a week, down south I've never had one.

There are certain things I miss but not really anything overly important.

Hope that helps

Kenzo


----------



## thifs

For sure, hiring an italian loyer will increase your chance to have your italian passport. Even in this case you can have it. "Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her offspring who were born before 1948"


----------



## panama rick

not exactly sure what "thifs" is implying about Italian women not being able to pass citizenship. That is the law as written, but is successfully being challenged in the courts. My wife just did it and is now a citizen.


----------



## thifs

panama rick said:


> not exactly sure what "thifs" is implying about Italian women not being able to pass citizenship. That is the law as written, but is successfully being challenged in the courts. My wife just did it and is now a citizen.



exactly what i tried to say. Hire a loyer and get your passport. 

this was Just a part of a comment from another person here in the forum 
""Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her..."



Italia-Mx said:


> If you go through your father's maternal line, you could run into an ineligibility because an Italian woman is not allowed to pass citizenship to any of her offspring who were born before 1948. Its best to go through your paternal line and to look again for that great-grandfather's birth information.


----------



## panama rick

thifs, sorry I misunderstood. Since this process is long and expensive I wanted people to be sure before proceeding.


----------

