# P.Vallarta vs Manzanillo



## zala

We are trying to discern the differences living in Manzanillo vs P. Vallarta. 

Any contribution will be welcomed.

Have visited both cities in winter but only PVR in August/September. Summer heat/humidity is a big issue (for one of us) but its something we seem to have to embrace because we have to run a little business to make the dream work and tourists afford one that opportunity. We would have to buy (but of course first rent) accommodations in the very cheap range and cannot afford to live the average expat lifestyle we see in those areas. 

We like PVR for its down town cultural flavour, the arts scene, and find locals welcoming. But that is too superficial an observation to go by. Would appreciate your input on this to help us direct our next exploratory trip in March.

Thank you all for making these fora possible, we learn a lot from your experiences.


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## RVGRINGO

There really is no comparison between Puerto Vallarta and Manzanillo. What type of business would you be starting, and have you done a marketing study and investigated 'investor status' on your visa with INM?
What do you mean by "PVR"?


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## zala

RVGRINGO said:


> There really is no comparison between Puerto Vallarta and Manzanillo. What type of business would you be starting, and have you done a marketing study and investigated 'investor status' on your visa with INM?
> What do you mean by "PVR"?


Thanks for your response. Apologies for the confusion. PVR is Puerto Vallarta airport code. We have done the immigration studies and will not be going the 'investor status' route. We have experience in setting up and running small businesses and have experience of immigration (from South Africa to Canada (took 5 years!) and have lived in 3rd world country for many years. Would want to start a small specialized eating place and if things work out (marketing research depending) a service complimentary to the destination wedding industry. Thanks again, I value your experience.


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## RVGRINGO

In that case, Puerto Vallarta would probably be the better choice of the two, because of the airport access and much greater cruise ship supply of pedestrian tourists. Of course, you'll probably find that many such businesses close for the six month 'off season' in either place, as there aren't many tourists and even many residents head for higher ground and cooler, less humid environs.


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## zala

Your opinion confirms my 'gut feel' about the difference. Its good to hear. Found Puerto Vallarta more expensive but less industrial. I would very much like to have seen a way clear to make a go of things in a setting such as the shores of Lake Chapala but our research shows it wont be viable for what we can do and what those communities need. Maybe, I dream, once we are there we might discover a way to make a summer living and residence inland (or start a tequila distillery and remain inebriated in the shade for the summer).

Thanks


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## kcowan

There are many destinations that make for ideal wedding destinations. PV gets lots of publcity because it is safe, accessible and tourist-friendly. But I would strongly recommend getting some-on-the-ground experience. Maz, PV and Manz are all acceptable destinations for gringos. But as RVG suggests, there may be other factors that dictate where to relocate.

I live in PV and I have found that several restaurants will go out of their way to make a wedding reception memorable. But that comes at a price. And if you make your money as facilitators, you might want a less friendly place where your value added is more obvious. And the overall price is lower including your fee.

You also have to decide whether you are relocating for your own benefit or for the benefit of your business.


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## stanburn

*Manzanillo vs Puerto Vallarta*

No comparison. Manzanillo is a working town and PV is a purely tourist town. If your move depends on having a business catering to the tourist trade then PV is your choice. 

If you plan on starting a business catering to foreign tourists in Manzanillo, they you will starve most of the year. Just my opinion as a 4 year full-time resident of Manzanillo where you can still exit the airport without talking to a single timeshare salesman.


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## zala

*Two important points*



kcowan said:


> ...I live in PV and I have found that several restaurants will go out of their way to make a wedding reception memorable. But that comes at a price. And if you make your money as facilitators, you might want a less friendly place where your value added is more obvious. And the overall price is lower including your fee.
> 
> You also have to decide whether you are relocating for your own benefit or for the benefit of your business.


Thank you for those insights. It so helps to talk things over with ppl in the know. So easy to not see the wood for the trees.

We want out of the lifestyle here in Ontario and are prepared for some sacrifices but I must say it will be a relief if we dont 'have' to end up in the craziness (which is also its charm) of PV.


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## zala

stanburn said:


> No comparison. Manzanillo is a working town and PV is a purely tourist town. If your move depends on having a business catering to the tourist trade then PV is your choice.
> 
> If you plan on starting a business catering to foreign tourists in Manzanillo, they you will starve most of the year. Just my opinion as a 4 year full-time resident of Manzanillo where you can still exit the airport without talking to a single timeshare salesman.


Stan, you're not suggesting there is a business to be had selling timeshare in Manz are you I really like Manzanillo. My kind of town. Real estate more affordable and cheap hotels are cleaner than we've seen elsewhere. My Spanish is really lacking in Manz and that makes PV more attractive in the short term.

I was under the impression that Manz has more cruise ship stopovers than PV. Don't know if this is correct. But, as you say, that is for a short span.

The drive from PV to Manz, is it slow because its treacherous or is it slow because of traffic, fowl, donkeys and people?

Thanks for sharing your experience. There's nothing as unproductive as making another person's mistakes if one had no real need to learn a lesson from it.


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## stanburn

There is no timeshare market in Manzanillo and if one were to try to develop a market in Manzanillo I think they would starve. My main point about timeshare salesman is that the few times I have flown in there I have been assaulted as I try to walk out of the airport by salesman. Here there are no salesman.

The road from PV to Manzanillo is just windy. I wouldn't call it treacherous. Just take your time and relax.

I again stress that if you are going to start a business in Manzanillo, it better be in something that appeals to everyone in the community and not just the foreign community as in the summer the foreign community isn't large enough to keep you going. 

I for one tend to avoid establishments run by foreigners that cater to foreigners as I live in Mexico and there are plenty of locals that need my business. But that is my reverse bias as I don't socialize much with the foreign community either.


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## sparks

>>>> The drive from PV to Manz, is it slow because its treacherous or is it slow because of traffic, fowl, donkeys and people?

It's just a 5 hour drive +/- .... not much traffic and the road is usually good. Northern section gets potholes in the rainy season. Not suggested for night driving like much of Mexico


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## RVGRINGO

Stan's 'reverse bias' is very common. We also avoid '****** establishments', as they tend to be what we moved to Mexico to escape from. As for language; no matter where you settle in Mexico and try to do business, you will need fluency and, probably a Mexican partner. The latter may succeed at your expense, or the local 'sindicatos' may simply decide that your competition is unwelcome. They can be very effective & have been known to cause middle of the night departures. We have one friend, who absented himself from the North American Continent for five years, after such an event. He's just returned, but is no longer in business.


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## conklinwh

Somewhere along the line the business model discussion has been lost. Sounds like some sort of specialty food based business that could morph into an ancillary wedding business.
Are you so specialized that your target customer is a foreign tourist either short term from a cruise ship or longer term visitors? Since foreign tourism down about 20%, would be really good if business model included Mexican tourism. Where we live, that now 80-90% of the tourists and growing versus declining. This also tends to somewhat fill in the summer months with school vacation although maybe less so at the beach.
Also, do you need to be at the beach for personal or business reasons? There are cities such as Oaxaca, San Cristobal, or San Miguel that have pretty year round tourist flow and in some cases increasing as more European than US.


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## kcowan

zala said:


> Thank you for those insights. It so helps to talk things over with ppl in the know. So easy to not see the wood for the trees.
> 
> We want out of the lifestyle here in Ontario and are prepared for some sacrifices but I must say it will be a relief if we dont 'have' to end up in the craziness (which is also its charm) of PV.


In the early 90s, I had a consulting assignment that involved a daily commute from 404/Major Mac to 401/Mississauga Rd. So I know about some of the stresses of w*rking in southern Ontario. 

Before we bought here in PV, our realtor describe one of our location requirements was to be "steps from the chaos" and we are 130 steps up from downtown PV in Alta Vista. Yet it is reasonably quiet at home. So we have "chaos on demand"! There are places that do not provide this separation though. Our friend lives half a block from the Malecon. The noise never ceases.


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## zala

_"It's just a 5 hour drive +/- .... not much traffic and the road is usually good"_

Thanks Stan and Sparks. The clarification helps a lot. Back in Africa we frequently navigated such roads - good but slow, and not for night driving. The bad ones that one should avoid for frequent driving are the badly built mountain passes and the ones where animals and children congregate - and of course the one's where if something untoward happened and you had to stop that would be the end of your future peace of mind. I hear Mexico has its share of the latter but seems Jalisco and Colima, at least are not bad for that.


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## zala

conklinwh said:


> Somewhere along the line the business model discussion has been lost. Sounds like some sort of specialty food based business that could morph into an ancillary wedding business.
> Are you so specialized that your target customer is a foreign tourist either short term from a cruise ship or longer term visitors? Since foreign tourism down about 20%, would be really good if business model included Mexican tourism. Where we live, that now 80-90% of the tourists and growing versus declining. This also tends to somewhat fill in the summer months with school vacation although maybe less so at the beach.
> Also, do you need to be at the beach for personal or business reasons? There are cities such as Oaxaca, San Cristobal, or San Miguel that have pretty year round tourist flow and in some cases increasing as more European than US.


We will be 100% compatible with local tourists' needs, and perhaps even more so than with foreign tourists (who have a penchant for deep-fried doughed shrimp with synthetic dipping sauces and are afraid to wander off the resort, and reluctant to eat where establishment does not resemble a typical franchise). This is an important aspect of our business model. I would not want to (and cannot afford to) setup and run a business for those folk. Will rely on foreigners and local tourists who typically seek out the hole-in-the-wall real food places and who appreciate a simple menu and establishment dedicated to doing gastronomical justice to quality seafood. The ancillary business providing services to the destination wedding thing is a backstop. Thank you for keeping focus. 

_Oaxaca, San Cristobal, or San Miguel_

Interesting point. We like the coast, probably one of the reasons why we like Manzanillo so much. Yet, since this will be our second immigration, and am now in my 50s, we must be extra careful regarding the fiscal viability of the move.


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## RVGRINGO

In our area, the turnover rate for eateries is amazing. Simply put, there are just too many places to eat. Even some very good ones can't make it. There is a changing pattern as older Mexicans seldom eat out, other than at the plaza's taco stands or the traditional cenadurias. Young, cosmopolitan Mexicans do eat out in places to be seen; clubs and Starbucks, etc. That leaves the small 'middle class families' who can go a vacation spot for the week or weekend. It isn't too often that you see expats and locals patronizing the same places too much. There are cultural reasons for that; though there are a few exceptions.
On top of all of that, there is the economic consideration, as you have recognized. Fewer retired expats are arriving, as many are trapped in house that won't sell. Those already here are often suffering from lost investment income, frozen pensions, frozen Social Security, unemployed children and grandchildren, advancing age and waning appetites. When we go to Puerto Vallarta, Manzanillo or other coastal towns, we usually rent a place with a kitchen & eat out in a nice restaurant only once or twice in the week, other than a taco lunch, etc. We prefer meals in the 90-120 peso range and might spring for 200 pesos for something really, really special once per year. Yes, there are those who will pay more, but they won't be forming lines outside your door. It is a tough business! Very good restaurants fail here every month. Poor ones, even faster. So, do your homework very, very carefully and do it 'on the ground', rather than by internet. I might even suggest that you live in Mexico for a few years and explore in detail before investing anything you can't afford to lose.


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## zala

RVGRINGO said:


> Stan's 'reverse bias' is very common. We also avoid '****** establishments', as they tend to be what we moved to Mexico to escape from. As for language; no matter where you settle in Mexico and try to do business, you will need fluency and, probably a Mexican partner. The latter may succeed at your expense, or the local 'sindicatos' may simply decide that your competition is unwelcome. They can be very effective & have been known to cause middle of the night departures. We have one friend, who absented himself from the North American Continent for five years, after such an event. He's just returned, but is no longer in business.


Two issues here that are of major concern to us. Even here in CAN we dont hang with expats from that place they call "back home". We came here to make this our home and to contribute to this society, and most importantly, to get rid of our baggage ingrained from stuff happened in that country. Now, 10 years later, CAN did such a good job helping us become normative of mind and daily conduct that we can stand back and realize we may just wither in soul. Theres much merit in being normative of mind in this community here but we miss real people, warm people, people who are not so hellbent on killing themselves with synthetic foods and people who don't live in fear of life itself. We need to step away from this religion of consumerism and have found a lot of peace in Mexico, among Mexicans mostly.

The other issue that RVG brings up is something I am really aware of. Even here in Ontario, in a small town of 100,000 people it happens that 'outsiders' come in with their "big city ideas", or "French manners", or acting all "European" and they are ostracized (in the nice Canadian way - quiet but effective) and their socialization fails and their business ventures unsuccessful. While this can obviously happen in any community, I understand that in Mexico, like most of South America and Africa, that that scenario has another side as well - it can be brought about by a need to eliminate competition. I am worried about this. Prepared to fly low, and be only moderately successful in business - but one never knows. *Perhaps a Mexican partner...*

And yes, RVG, we are working on our Spanish. Anytime soon I might stop injecting Zulu and Xhosa words into my Spanish to complete sentences (for the life of me I dont know why my spongiform brain does not pick an English word to interject but picks from a limited vocab of a far-away language!)


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## zala

RVGRINGO said:


> In our area, the turnover rate for eateries is amazing. Simply put, there are just too many places to eat. Even some very good ones can't make it. _---BULK EDITED OUT FOR BREVITY OF QUOUTE --_- I might even suggest that you live in Mexico for a few years and explore in detail before investing anything you can't afford to lose.


This is an important insight and I thank you for it. 
Because of discussions on this forum I have started formulating an understanding that we should be even more cautious and employ a different research tactic because of the many factors involved. Your suggestions make painful sense, appreciate it.


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## RVGRINGO

I hate to cause pain, but if it helps to keep someone out of trouble, it is worthwhile.
You've made me chuckle, as I once made a living in Africa, Asia and the Middle East. When first in Mexico, I had no Spanish and frequently found myself doing a similar thing; dropping in a word of French or Turkish but never one of English. Somewhere in our noggins, is a file that says, "Foreign" and that's where we go to find something to fill the empty linguistic hole. Never fails! Later, I learned enough Spanish to be able to 'describe' the missing word, getting the other person to supply it. As such, the "Foreign" file seems to be closed, for the time being. You'll get over it.


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## ioso

zala said:


> Your opinion confirms my 'gut feel' about the difference. Its good to hear. Found Puerto Vallarta more expensive but less industrial. I would very much like to have seen a way clear to make a go of things in a setting such as the shores of Lake Chapala but our research shows it wont be viable for what we can do and what those communities need. Maybe, I dream, once we are there we might discover a way to make a summer living and residence inland (or start a tequila distillery and remain inebriated in the shade for the summer).
> 
> Thanks


I'm thinking your idea of the tequila distillery sounds real fine


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## zala

ioso said:


> I'm thinking your idea of the tequila distillery sounds real fine


I must say, at this time in my journey that idea is the only one that satisfies all the requirements. It cannot be boring because someone has to watch the droplets drip into the vat. Raw material is inexpensive given the fact that should one run out of cacti the hotels will donate leftover organic material. Location, location, location is important but easily satisfied since only one shade tree is really necessary and two considered luxury. Mosquitoes cannot handle human blood higher than 0.2 so one should be just fine there. I know my wife will insist on eating solids as well, but with all the hotel / resort leftovers and such... 

Cheers


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## circle110

As fun as it sounds (I'm a tequila nut), starting a tequila distillery would seriously limit the places you could live. Mexican law states that tequila can be produced only in the state of Jalisco and limited regions in the states of Guanajuato, Michoacán, Nayarit, and Tamaulipas. If you don't produce the beverage in those specific areas you would have to call the drink a mezcal. Outside of perhaps scotch in Scotland, tequila is the most heavily regulated alcoholic beverage in the world. If you don't do things just right, you run afoul of the NOM, which is the government agency in charge of regulating all things agave and tequila.

If you do it right, it could be fun and profitable, though!


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## zala

circle110 said:


> As fun as it sounds (I'm a tequila nut), starting a tequila distillery would seriously limit the places you could live. Mexican law states that tequila can be produced only in the state of Jalisco and limited regions in the states of Guanajuato, Michoacán, Nayarit, and Tamaulipas. If you don't produce the beverage in those specific areas you would have to call the drink a mezcal. Outside of perhaps scotch in Scotland, tequila is the most heavily regulated alcoholic beverage in the world. If you don't do things just right, you run afoul of the NOM, which is the government agency in charge of regulating all things agave and tequila.
> 
> If you do it right, it could be fun and profitable, though!


Wow, you know all that stuff. This warrants a new thread. I was just joking but you wet an appetite to know more. I love brewing stuff and my spouse allows me to continue doing so even though I have had a homebuilt still blow up once, and a pineapple beer exploded the 1liter coke bottle it was stored in-in the kitchen. My guess is she still likes the wine we make and figgired its OK for me to play with stills as long as we have wine.


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## circle110

Well if you decide to do it, can I have a tour of the distillery with a couple of free samples at the end?


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## zala

circle110 said:


> Well if you decide to do it, can I have a tour of the distillery with a couple of free samples at the end?


As Protagonist you will have a lifelong pass and access to the top shelf stuff (the bought stuff). 
BTW :focus:
This means I settle in Jalisco and the business model has had a slight change, and operating premises downscaled to a shade tree. Problem solved.

But seriously - Thanks for everyone's contributions. This forum is invaluable.


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