# EU National with Non Eu Spouse



## Nabiky

Hi to all!
well we have arrived to Spain at December 2010 and we want to apply for the 
Eu Treaty Rights. 
My Husband is British national, im Chilean national.
Married almost a year ago at Gibraltar.
What form we need for applying?
Must go to police station for it or any other place.
In the meanwhile we are looking renting a flat and my husband is moving his business to Spain as well.
Any help or info it would be very helpful 
I havent seen in the forum nothing about The Eu Treaty Rights so for that reason im asking for your kind help & info
Cheers 
Nabiky & Lee Pitcher


----------



## 90199

I do not understand the nature of your question, neither do I understand what you mean by EU treaty rights?

If your husband is British then he can work or reside in any part of Europe, he must however pay his taxes and social security to the country of residence. Being in Spain he and you will need a N.I.E. number and to register at the padron in the area where you reside. Check the forum these subjects have been covered before,

You being his legal spouse, I believe you can reside with him,

Hepa


----------



## sonitaw

*here you go*

I just went through this and am spreading the knowledge because it was a frustrating process and wish someone else would have done this for me. 

First you have to register your marriage with the UK (not sure if this is already the case because you married in Gibraltar) call the British Embassy to see if they can help with this, the DUtch embassy was useless int he process but maybe they know more in your case. You have to have the marriage certificated apostil stamped and do whatever needs to be done to register the Marriage iwth the UK, this could take awile...

You are lucky you speak spanish, that will help a lot!

Below is my write up:
Applying for Residency in Spain as a non-EU Spouse (specific for Americans, but maybe useful for others):
You did it, you and your spouse moved to Spain. Now what? Well you are in luck if you have a residency card someplace else in the EU, I have no clue what that process is, but I have heard it is easier. However, if you are like me, and were married in the states then brace yourself for a paperwork roller coaster. I had a lot of help from other people I know who are married to EU citizens. Here are some tips to help you along. Oh it is also worth mentioning that I read that they no longer issue visas for spouses in Spain you have to go through the residency process. This information is recent as of January 2011.
The absolute first thing you have to do is register your marriage with the EU country where your spouse is from. Where you do this (and how long it takes) varies per country and it cannot be done at an embassy it has to be sent to the actual county. This will require your spouse’s birth certificate, your birth certificate with and Apostil stamp, and copies of both your passports. You also have to fill out an official request of course. If you are American like I am, the Apostil stamp can only be issued by the state that created the document. So if you live in Ohio but were born in Florida, it has to come from Florida, wherever the Secretary of State is located in that state. In the case of the Netherlands, the copies of the birth certificates cannot be older than 6 months. Most EU countries issue marriage certificated that are already in multiple languages, if yours is not, you have to have it translated.

Also at the top of the list is registering you and your spouse with City Hall (Empadronamiento). Where you need to go depends on the district you live in. For this you have to have:
Your lease (in Spanish)
If you have children you need an Apostilled copy of their birth certificate (and pray that they don’t ask that it is translated, they just need something saying you are the child’s parents). 
Your passports
Spouse’s NIE

They should be able to print the document for you right then and there. Once you have the registrations, make several copies of this you need at least 3, 2 for the government and 1 for yourself.

Around the same time go onto mpr.es Ministerio de la Presidencia - MPR.es :: Portada[/url] and make an appointment with “Servicio de Cita Previa” you will need to select “RESIDENCE PERMIT FOR RELATIVES OF EU NATIONALS” (tarjeta de residencia de familiar de ciudadano de la Unión)
You will go to the Oficina de Extranjeros located at: MURCIA 42 BARCELONA 08027
The appointment is usually made 3-4 weeks out, you probably won’t have your marriage certificate but you can take all of your other documents with you and get the application process rolling. Be prepared to wait for an hour and for the place to be swamped. 

The documents you should have are:
Both passports (obviously)
Your spouse’s NIE document (no longer a card), plus copy
Work contract if you have it (just in case)
A completed EX16 form, Download form EX 16
2 copies of both you and your spouse’s passports
The marriage certificate from your EU spouse’s country (apparently this cannot be older than 3 months)
A copy of both of your registrations with city hall (Empadronamientos)
Three passport-sized photographs in color.

You will leave with a paper listing the missing documents needed for your application (hopefully none). If you are missing some of the documents you can return to the Oficina de Extranjeros any time once you have them in order. You don’t need an appointment but be prepared to wait at least a half hour. The office is open 9-5.

After this visit, they will issue you a letter saying your application is complete and you will have to go to the next step (no it isn’t picking up your residency card, that would make too much sense), which is going to the Police Station 2 weeks after all your documents are in. It is called the Comisaria de Barcelona-Balmes, located on the corner of Calle Guadalajara and Calle Bosch. You will know you are there because there will be a bunch of other immigrants wandering around looking confused. It is located on a really small insignificant side street, but don’t fear you are in the right place!

You will need:
The letter from the Oficina de Extranjeros
3 recent passport sized pictures
Your registration with City Hall

As always be prepared to wait, the police at the guard post will direct you where to go. Don’t let them send you around the corner, you have to be there. Once you get a live person, it goes quickly. They give you a slip to take to a different office where you will pick up your actual card. I was confused, and went there right away, but you can’t pick up the actual card until one month after the Comisaria grants it. They also give you a form to take to your bank where you need to transfer 10 Euro to the Police. This is called a Modelo 790, and I have seen it mentioned elsewhere saying you should complete it before going. Unfortunately there is no way for you to get this form in advance because it is a carbon copy. Oh and another joyous tidbit about this form, all of the banks within blocks of the Comisaria only process these forms between 9 and 10:30. Which is next to impossible to get done due to the long wait at the station. The good news is that you have a month to make the transfer before you have to go pick up your card. The office where your card is located is:
Calle Mallorca 213. The wait is short once you get there… 
Finally, hop on one foot, pat your tummy clockwise, while holding your nose, and counting backwards from 100…..


----------



## Honeypenny

*lol! I know what you mean!*



sonitaw said:


> Oh it is also worth mentioning that I read that they no longer issue visas for spouses in Spain you have to go through the residency process. This information is recent as of January 2011


I know what you mean! The process doesn't make sense and is sooo frustrating.

I just want to know what you mean by the statement above? Does that mean you have to be in the country of residence to apply for your residency visa in order to go through the residency process? 

Just wondering as I am in the process of _trying_ to get married. Trying because it seems like I never will with all this red tape and looooooong waits.

Do let me know!

Thanks!

H


----------



## sonitaw

All I mean is that in my my case a temporary residency visa would have been fine (they are usually easier to get because they don't last five years, don't allow you to work or use social benefits), but Spain does not issue them any more. Spain only offers residency cards for spouses, it is not a visa, it allows you all rights your EU spouse has (work/access to social care etc) and is valid for 5 years. I only need it to enter and leave the country, so I would have welcomed another option.

If you are from a country that is part of the Schengen agreement (Travelling in Europe - Documents you will need) you should be able to enter Spain on a 90 day tourist visa then start your paperwork after that. If you are travelling without your husband make sure you have a roundtrip ticket where you return before that 90 days is up or else they will force you to buy one before you can even board the plane (learned this the hard way).

As for being in Spain to apply for the residency card, I think you have to be here because part of the paperwork is registering yourself at city hall (empadronamiento) which you have to do with your lease from your Spain home. I am not sure about this, you would have to contact your local embassy. I have an American friend whose husband got his US greencard while they lived abroad but that is a totally different system...

Hope this helps!!



Honeypenny said:


> I know what you mean! The process doesn't make sense and is sooo frustrating.
> 
> I just want to know what you mean by the statement above? Does that mean you have to be in the country of residence to apply for your residency visa in order to go through the residency process?
> 
> Just wondering as I am in the process of _trying_ to get married. Trying because it seems like I never will with all this red tape and looooooong waits.
> 
> Do let me know!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> H


----------



## Honeypenny

It does! Thanks a lot


----------



## Guest

*I have VERY good experience of this!*

Around 2010 Spain (possibly other countries) introduced rules that attempt to circumvent EC rights for non-EC dependants by insisting all documents comply with Hague Convention rules. Basically if you got married in a country that has not signed the convention on marriages and ceremonies then your marriage certifcate is worthless after three months and you will need to get a new one, fully attested and apostilled, from the country in which you were married before even attempting to get residence in Spain. In my case I married an Indian in 1992 and we have had five children together but my wife was denied permanent residence even though we had provided proof of our relationship in 2006 and been living in Spain legally for five years. The British Embassy is of no use whatsoever. In fact, they are complicit in insisting you go through the ridiculous process of obtaining a new certificate. You might try SOLVIT but in my experience they are useless (prove me wrong if you want Christine or Ana!). If you have been married for some years and especially if your names are on your children's birth certificates the burden of proof to prove your marriage is illegitimate is with the Spanish Authorities. If you are asked to provide a duplicate certificate, insist that the clerk submits your application (even though it is "invalid") and then contact the Defensor del Pueblo (ombudsman) in your area to complain about your treatment. you can do this on the Internet. You are not alone!

One more thing. The ombudsman notified us that my wife had been granted residence on July 20th. The official invitation to the comisara was posted 20 days later (I checked online using the registration code) and arrived in our post box on the 17th of August. The letter said we had one month to apply, in other words we had until August 20th, which was a Saturday, so we really only had 3 days. Excuse my Spanish but these people are real *******s.

Good luck and let me know if you need help.


----------



## Guest

Hi there

I have a related question I cannot fathom out. I hope you guys can help:

I am a UK citizen recently returned to the UK form Asia and now living in the UK

I want to move to Spain which is easy enough for me and for my 3 year old son who also holds a UK passport...

But... My wife is Thai. She is here in the UK on a visitor visa as we never intended staying for more than six months.

Now her visa expires in 6 weeks so what is the easiest and quickest way to get us all to Barcelona as residents?

I understand the process is not that easy form reading the other posts here but my main question is whether to start things here in the UK with the Spanish embassy (in which case we have 6 weeks to get things done to get into Spain before her UK visitor visa expires) or to go directly to Spain now before her Schengen visa expires and then start the process there on the basis that she is with me and our son, both UK nationals with the right to live and work in Spain...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Cheers

Paul


----------



## Guest

*Dilemma re Non-Eu spouse and getting to Spain*

Hi there

I have a related question I cannot fathom out. I hope you guys can help:

I am a UK citizen recently returned to the UK form Asia and now living in the UK

I want to move to Spain which is easy enough for me and for my 3 year old son who also holds a UK passport...

But... My wife is Thai. She is here in the UK on a visitor visa as we never intended staying for more than six months.

Now her visa expires in 6 weeks so what is the easiest and quickest way to get us all to Barcelona as residents?

I understand the process is not that easy form reading the other posts here but my main question is whether to start things here in the UK with the Spanish embassy (in which case we have 6 weeks to get things done to get into Spain before her UK visitor visa expires) or to go directly to Spain now before her Schengen visa expires and then start the process there on the basis that she is with me and our son, both UK nationals with the right to live and work in Spain...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Cheers

Paul


----------



## xabiaxica

CharlieAustin said:


> Hi there
> 
> I have a related question I cannot fathom out. I hope you guys can help:
> 
> I am a UK citizen recently returned to the UK form Asia and now living in the UK
> 
> I want to move to Spain which is easy enough for me and for my 3 year old son who also holds a UK passport...
> 
> But... My wife is Thai. She is here in the UK on a visitor visa as we never intended staying for more than six months.
> 
> Now her visa expires in 6 weeks so what is the easiest and quickest way to get us all to Barcelona as residents?
> 
> I understand the process is not that easy form reading the other posts here but my main question is whether to start things here in the UK with the Spanish embassy (in which case we have 6 weeks to get things done to get into Spain before her UK visitor visa expires) or to go directly to Spain now before her Schengen visa expires and then start the process there on the basis that she is with me and our son, both UK nationals with the right to live and work in Spain...
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Paul


actually from what I understand it's easier here in Spain

you & your son automatically have the right to live here, so sign on as residents using form EX18

as your legal wife & dependent (you need to provide documentation obviously) so does your wife, effectively, but she needs to *apply *for residency, but that can be done when you get here, too

if you look on the link on page 1 of the _Spanish Forms_ sticky, you need to fill in EX19 for her


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the reply...

So if we go in the next few weeks to Spain, my wife will be entering on her Schengen Visa, albeit right at the end of her visa period, therefore all the applying I do for my residency and then hers will no doubt take longer than her visa allows...

Is there any problem then that techniclally she is overstaying her visa? How will they handle this as on the one hand she is not allowed there based on her visa but on the other she is my wife and my son's mother and both of us are of course...? 

Also, we were married in Thailand so we have our marriage certificate in Thai and an official certified English translation. Do we need that and any other documents in Spanish and if so where do we get them done to please the authorities?

Thanks so much...

Paul


----------



## Guest

Maybe I am sounding over cautious but having lived in Asia, I have seen other people deported etc so I would like to avoid any stressful situations for my family and apply for my wife in a relaxed way without any confrontation. I am not really sure if she has actual "rights" as my wife and my son's mother in Spanish authorities' eyes...

Thanks again....

Paul

Paul


----------



## Guest

CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks for the reply...
> 
> So if we go in the next few weeks to Spain, my wife will be entering on her Schengen Visa, albeit right at the end of her visa period, therefore all the applying I do for my residency and then hers will no doubt take longer than her visa allows...
> 
> Is there any problem then that techniclally she is overstaying her visa? How will they handle this as on the one hand she is not allowed there based on her visa but on the other she is my wife and my son's mother and both of us are of course...?
> 
> Also, we were married in Thailand so we have our marriage certificate in Thai and an official certified English translation. Do we need that and any other documents in Spanish and if so where do we get them done to please the authorities?
> 
> Thanks so much...
> 
> Paul


Paul, ignore that advice from user xabiachica - I would imagine from the name that he/she is from South America and they have special status in Europe. I'm married to an Indian and have been in exactly the same situation you are describing only we had been married for 16 years with five children. You cannot circumvent the system on a technicality. There are two parts to this process.

You need to obtain the correct visa for your Thai wife to enter Spain with a view to living there permanently. The visa you require is for "family regrouping" and can only be obtained in person from the Spanish Consulate in Thailand. You will require a number of supporting forms including a medical certificate and police clearance. Check out the list of requirements at the Spanish Consulate in London. The visa will allow you one entry into Spain where you can apply for residence at your local comisaria.

To get residence once you are in Spain, if you were married in a country that has not signed the Hague Convention on civil partnerships and ceremonies (basically any non-Christian country!) you will need a copy of your marriage certificate from wherever you were married, attested by the Ministry of Foreign affairs in that country, translated and attested by the Spanish consulate in that country, and attested by the Foreign Ministry in Spain. When you have got all those papers the British Consulate in Spain will give you a paper recognizing your marriage. That paper must be less than 3 months old when you go to apply for residence.

If you would like my advice the first thing you must do is go back to Thailand and obtain a visa that allows you to get married in the UK. Then and only then should you start the process for getting residence in Spain.


----------



## xabiaxica

really


rippenburn said:


> Paul, ignore that advice from user xabiachica - I would imagine from the name that he/she is from South America and they have special status in Europe. I'm married to an Indian and have been in exactly the same situation you are describing only we had been married for 16 years with five children. You cannot circumvent the system on a technicality. There are two parts to this process.
> 
> You need to obtain the correct visa for your Thai wife to enter Spain with a view to living there permanently. The visa you require is for "family regrouping" and can only be obtained in person from the Spanish Consulate in Thailand. You will require a number of supporting forms including a medical certificate and police clearance. Check out the list of requirements at the Spanish Consulate in London. The visa will allow you one entry into Spain where you can apply for residence at your local comisaria.
> 
> To get residence once you are in Spain, if you were married in a country that has not signed the Hague Convention on civil partnerships and ceremonies (basically any non-Christian country!) you will need a copy of your marriage certificate from wherever you were married, attested by the Ministry of Foreign affairs in that country, translated and attested by the Spanish consulate in that country, and attested by the Foreign Ministry in Spain. When you have got all those papers the British Consulate in Spain will give you a paper recognizing your marriage. That paper must be less than 3 months old when you go to apply for residence.
> 
> If you would like my advice the first thing you must do is go back to Thailand and obtain a visa that allows you to get married in the UK. Then and only then should you start the process for getting residence in Spain.


actually I'm from the UK.............

if I'm wrong I apologise - I understood from someone I know (not EU or south american) that what I said was what they did, though admittedly not involving a Thai national

they obviously had to have all the legal proof of the marriage, but got the visa after they came to spain


----------



## Guest

Hi there Rippenburn

Thanks for the kind and detailed advice...

Wow, that is a real blow. We simply cannot go back to Thailand, then return to the UK and then go to Spain. It is much too involved as we are now in the UK anyway.

Also, one point is we are married so I am not sure I understand why we would marry again or did you refer to returning to the UK witha marriage visa?

Is there really no way to do this from the UK at the Spanish embassy? If not in Spain? Otherwise we will have to forget Spain sadly...

Thanks

Paul


----------



## Guest

Would the Spanish Embassy in London be any help for me or a hindrance?...

Paul


----------



## xabiaxica

CharlieAustin said:


> Hi there Rippenburn
> 
> Thanks for the kind and detailed advice...
> 
> Wow, that is a real blow. We simply cannot go back to Thailand, then return to the UK and then go to Spain. It is much too involved as we are now in the UK anyway.
> 
> Also, one point is we are married so I am not sure I understand why we would marry again or did you refer to returning to the UK witha marriage visa?
> 
> Is there really no way to do this from the UK at the Spanish embassy? If not in Spain? Otherwise we will have to forget Spain sadly...
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Paul


the only way you can find out for sure is to check with the relevant embassies - the spanish embassy in the UK would be your best starting point


----------



## jojo

rippenburn said:


> Paul, ignore that advice from user xabiachica - I would imagine from the name that he/she is from South America and they have special status in Europe.


Can I point out that Xabiachica is British, but has lived in Spain for a good few years and she and her family are totally bilingual and very knowledgeable! Her user name is "xabia" which is the way Javea is spelt in that part of Spain and "chica" is spanish for young lady/girl. So as most people who live in spain will know, her user name means "young lady from Javea"! (girls pushing it lol)

She is also a moderator, which means that altho her advise on some visa issues may not always be "spot on", it does mean that she shouldnt be ignored

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Can I point out that Xabiachica is British, but has lived in Spain for a good few years and she and her family are totally bilingual and very knowledgeable! Her user name is "xabia" which is the way Javea is spelt in that part of Spain and "chica" is spanish for young lady/girl. So as most people who live in spain will know, her user name means "young lady from Javea"! (girls pushing it lol)
> 
> She is also a moderator, which means that altho her advise on some visa issues may not always be "spot on", it does mean that she shouldnt be ignored
> 
> Jo xxx




you know that you're a _chica_ until you're an abuela

& that is a looooong way off I hope


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> really
> 
> actually I'm from the UK.............
> 
> if I'm wrong I apologise - I understood from someone I know (not EU or south american) that what I said was what they did, though admittedly not involving a Thai national
> 
> they obviously had to have all the legal proof of the marriage, but got the visa after they came to spain


Hi

Whenever I speak to anyone about our experiences here in Spain they are first astonished that my Indian wife is still on an Indian passport after 19 years of marriage (most Brits still believe it is easy to get a UK passport) and secondly that she is not entitled to stay here because of my EU status. The fact is she does derive her rights to stay in the EU from me but that does not prevent Spain from asking us to provide proof of her marital, medical and criminal status. Once in Spain it is highly unlikely that the non-EU spouse of an EU national would be asked to leave even if they have overstayed their visit Visa but the authorities can argue that the person has entered illegally and request that they follow the correct procedure, which involves obtaining the correct Visa in their country of origin. 

I would be interested to know more about your friend and how they managed to bypass the system because we have a discrimination case against the Spanish government with the EC Directorate of Justice. Perhaps you could ask them to join this forum and share their experience with us first hand?


----------



## gus-lopez

Probably the easiest way for the OP to do it is to apply for indefinite leave to remain for his wife in the UK. Once she has that stamp in her passport then it covers her for all other EC member countries.


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> Probably the easiest way for the OP to do it is to apply for indefinite leave to remain for his wife in the UK. Once she has that stamp in her passport then it covers her for all other EC member countries.


Hi

As the UK and Ireland do not belong to the Schengen states I find it highly unlikely that the ILR alone allows anyone to travel within the Schengen states. Could you provide a link to the Spanish directive regarding this?

Also, I think CharlieAustin wants to get residence in Spain for which he will need the correct visa issued by the Spanish consulate in Thailand.


----------



## Guest

CharlieAustin said:


> Would the Spanish Embassy in London be any help for me or a hindrance?...
> 
> Paul


Hi again

My experience with the Spanish Consulate in London was very frustrating. Back in 2006 you had to get appointments by post - you couldn't even walk in and ask for one. Following my complaint to the EC they changed their attitude on the web site but I doubt they have changed their spots completely! Even if you do get through to them I'm sure you will be told that your wife has to apply for a regroup visa from Thailand. Have you tried getting a new Shengen state visa for your wife from the UK?

On the subject of the marriage, my wife was denied renewal of her residence here in Spain, even though she had been resident for five years and held property in Spain for 25 years, all because of the change in law regarding the Hague Convention. Again my complaint to the EC managed to overturn the decision because we had already proved that we were married in 2006. What I suggest you do, if nothing else by the way, is to get married in the UK because you will not need to provide further proof that you are a couple. You can get a civil marriage if necessary. You might even be able to do it without going back to Thailand first - ask at the local registrar.

If you do arrive in Spain on a visit visa and decide to stay your wife will have to stay in the Schengen states until the matter is resolved. If her visit visa expires before she leaves she will not be allowed back in until she gets another visa and the Spanish consulate might deny her another visit if they discover that she has overstayed (you have to state the dates of the last visit on the application).

Finally, (jojo et al) I would like to point out that you cannot quote the advice of a moderator or anyone else (including me) when it comes to arguing your case at the border or with your local foreigner's office here in Spain. You can't even argue EC law with them - believe me, I've tried! Earlier this year I spent 5 months working with the EC, Solvit and the Defensor Del Pueblo (Spanish ombudsman) before the Subdelegation in Malaga decided to uphold my wife's rights under directive 2004/38/EC. Prove me wrong by all means.


----------



## Guest

*It's all available on the web - you just need to know where to look!*



CharlieAustin said:


> Would the Spanish Embassy in London be any help for me or a hindrance?...
> 
> Paul


Hi again

Here's the advice from the FCO on foreign marriage certificates:

Foreign marriage certificates

Here's the list of countries whose citizens require a visa:

http://www.maec.es/en/MenuPpal/Cons...uments/Listado países sometidos visado EN.pdf

And here is the part where they say you must get a family regroup visa from the country in which you legally reside (Thailand?):

Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores y de Cooperación | Gobierno de España

Good luck!


----------



## gus-lopez

rippenburn said:


> Hi
> 
> As the UK and Ireland do not belong to the Schengen states I find it highly unlikely that the ILR alone allows anyone to travel within the Schengen states. Could you provide a link to the Spanish directive regarding this?
> 
> Also, I think CharlieAustin wants to get residence in Spain for which he will need the correct visa issued by the Spanish consulate in Thailand.


From here;
Status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residents

once you have ILR, you have it......cannot be taken away, as long as you use it.
and that means staying most of the time in the UK...
or at least having your normal home in the UK, you can go up to 2 years away eg look after family etc.

To get ILR, you husband needs to support the application and say you are still together,

ILR is a visa for the UK - 2 years living as married in the UK or 5 years otherwise legally
Citizenship is later, total of 3 years including 2 as married, or 1 year on ILR.
With citizenship, you can then apply for a UK passport.

Although the ILR is a visa for the UK,
there is in theory, a EU directive, that says ILR in one EU country must be allowed to have residence in another EU country automatically - though not permanent/indefinite until 5 years later. Trouble is, like the EU family permit, it looks like it does not get implemented easily or fully in all countries... but woth knowing about.


A long term EU resident is stated as 5 years in the EU country,
but ILR in the UK is the same even though it is gained by 3 years residence in the case of spouses.

see here:
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/j…

Right of residence in the other EU countries

"A long-term resident may exercise the right of residence, for a period exceeding three months, in an EU country other than the one which granted him/her the status, subject to compliance with certain conditions, including:

exercise of an economic activity in an employed or self-employed capacity;
pursuit of studies or vocational training;
other purposes."

and more interestingly.. you cannot lose the ILR under the 2 year rule.. untill you have got a new EU ILR elsewhere.

"Long-term residents living in the second EU country will retain their status in the first EU country until they have acquired the same status in the second EU country. If they so wish, they may apply to be considered as long-term residents in the second EU country after having legally resided there for a period of five years."


It is contained in
"Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0109:en:NOT


----------



## Guest

Hi,

I agree that if the lady from Thailand obtains residency in the UK under the terms of an ILR she should be able to settle in any other EU member state with her husband. That said the UK does not recognize the Schengen State visa and vice versa and the ILR does not give you automatic entry into any other EU member state. However, you stated, 

"Once she has that stamp [ILR] in her passport then it covers her for all other EC member countries"

which is wrong by your own admission:



gus-lopez said:


> Although the ILR is a visa for the UK,
> there is in theory, a EU directive, that says ILR in one EU country must be allowed to have residence in another EU country automatically - though not permanent/indefinite until 5 years later. Trouble is, like the EU family permit, it looks like it does not get implemented easily or fully in all countries... but woth knowing about.





> Right of residence in the other EU countries
> 
> "A long-term resident may exercise the right of residence, for a period exceeding three months, in an EU country other than the one which granted him/her the status, subject to compliance with certain conditions, including ..."


If her husband already had long term resident status in Spain she should be able to join him or argue the case to stay with him if she had entered the country on the wrong visa. However, having a UK passport is not the same as being a long term resident of Spain. You can stay in Spain on a UK passport for as long as you want without applying for residence but you only obtain permanent resident status when you have resided in the country legally for 5 years. 

In theory this lady should be allowed entry into any EU member state when accompanied by her husband if she is able to prove her relationship (MRAX case C-459/99, 25 July 2002). But the reality of border crossings is totally different, which you will be aware of if you have experienced it first hand. Unless you are in possession of a visa for the country you intend to visit you will be lucky to get past the check-in desk at an airport because the airlines are fined if they allow people to travel without one or a valid passport. If you arrive at your destination without the correct visa or a valid travel document you're in for a very long wait while they decide if you can enter or not. If they do decide to let you in it will be on a short stay visa with conditions attached, like having to report to the police station within a number of days.


----------



## gus-lopez

rippenburn said:


> Hi,
> 
> I agree that if the lady from Thailand obtains residency in the UK under the terms of an ILR she should be able to settle in any other EU member state with her husband. That said the UK does not recognize the Schengen State visa and vice versa and the ILR does not give you automatic entry into any other EU member state. However, you stated,
> 
> "Once she has that stamp [ILR] in her passport then it covers her for all other EC member countries"
> 
> which is wrong by your own admission:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If her husband already had long term resident status in Spain she should be able to join him or argue the case to stay with him if she had entered the country on the wrong visa. However, having a UK passport is not the same as being a long term resident of Spain. You can stay in Spain on a UK passport for as long as you want without applying for residence but you only obtain permanent resident status when you have resided in the country legally for 5 years.
> 
> In theory this lady should be allowed entry into any EU member state when accompanied by her husband if she is able to prove her relationship (MRAX case C-459/99, 25 July 2002). But the reality of border crossings is totally different, which you will be aware of if you have experienced it first hand. Unless you are in possession of a visa for the country you intend to visit you will be lucky to get past the check-in desk at an airport because the airlines are fined if they allow people to travel without one or a valid passport. If you arrive at your destination without the correct visa or a valid travel document you're in for a very long wait while they decide if you can enter or not. If they do decide to let you in it will be on a short stay visa with conditions attached, like having to report to the police station within a number of days.


I agree with your statement re : the airlines but if the Op & his family leave by road , once into europe there are no border controls & you can travel to which country you want with out seeing any border controls. 
Once in Spain the likelihood of being asked for paperwork is highly unlikely , especially around here . 
I personally know of many Russians & non-EU east europeans that have been here for years , having arrived on a visa & just overstayed , who have soc.sec . numbers & full healthcare. Most apply for permanent residency after 5 years using the 'Pareja de hecho' route. ( basically common law couple ) .


----------



## Guest

gus-lopez said:


> I agree with your statement re : the airlines but if the Op & his family leave by road , once into europe there are no border controls & you can travel to which country you want with out seeing any border controls.
> Once in Spain the likelihood of being asked for paperwork is highly unlikely , especially around here .
> I personally know of many Russians & non-EU east europeans that have been here for years , having arrived on a visa & just overstayed , who have soc.sec . numbers & full healthcare. Most apply for permanent residency after 5 years using the 'Pareja de hecho' route. ( basically common law couple ) .


Hi

Many (700,000?) illegal immigrants took advantage of the amnesty to become legal but you don't simply become legal if you manage to stay under the radar for five years. You have to have lived in the country legally for 5 years and that particular law is upheld by the EC.

Both partners need to be in Spain legally to obtain a civil partnership (you need the document when applying for residency of a non-EU spouse). If that was not the case the process would be abused.

As for your personal friends, anyone here illegally is not going to broadcast the fact and is more likely to tell you that they are here legally with social security. Unless there is a reason for you to examine their credentials (why would you?) you are really none the wiser. Either way, you have taken their word for it and not had to do it yourself.

We "personally" explored every avenue in trying to get residency for my wife in 2006 and 2011. You make it sound soooo simple!


----------



## jonmlb748

best to get down here and start the process in Spain,when her scengen visa runs out it will take an age to get her resident card and she will not be able to travel any where not least back to the uk


----------



## jonmlb748

I read your comments with great interest as I am having a nightmare regarding renewing my wife's resident card.she is a thai national ,we have two children and she has lived here six years.immigration have asked for a new marriage certificate from the registrars office in Bangkok,translated,certified and stamped by the Spanish embassy in BKK.this was then sent to Madrid,to be legalised by the min of immigration.then presented to my local immigration office,where we received her entrada.three months later we where notified we needed a letter from the brit consul stating we where still married.too late they said.docs over 3 months old,start again .so repeat process all again .until we get to Spanish embassy in BKK who wanted the signature of the thai immigration officer to be authenticated.not possible said thai min of FA.so sent back here. Brit consul cannot issue doc to say we are still married.
so one year down the line €1200 poorer and no progress.am absolutely fed up ,so my question to you ,finally is did you use a lawyer or proceed your self? my wife has been here six years since getting her first enpadronado,does that mean she has been here legally the 5 years plus?.finally do you think I should try using this defensor de pueblo?


----------



## Guest

*Right to reside*

Your rights are derived from European Law. I went straight to the European Ombudsman who forwarded my case the the Defensor Del Pueblo, so I think you should make a complaint with Defensor del Pueblo from the start. I did not use a lawyer because the EC law is quite straightforward with regards your wife's right to stay and I'm not about to pay someone to delay the process further. If your kids are not resident, do it. I presume they are on Brit passports so it will take 15 minutes but you will need an attested translated birth certificate.

When you are ready take a copy of your passports, children's birth certificates, existing residencies, deeds of any property you have owned in Spain since you arrived or any other documented proof that you have been here for a while and that your status has not changed. Include copies of your recent attempts to get residency. Send it by registered post to the Defensor and include your phone number. They should call you soon afterwards.

I know it is very, very frustrating but you will get there in the end. If you need anything from my side to indicate a precident please let me know.


----------



## jonmlb748

thanks rippenburn for your help, one daughter born here with Brit passport ,in libro de familia.also has certificado of naciamento. other is nine year old step daughter and is applying with mother for residencia .will keep updating on any news


----------



## Jonathan1989

Hello Rippenburn

Could I possibly speak to you about your case in Spain? I'm facing something that sounds similar in Germany and could do with any advice you could give.

Many thanks
Jonathan


----------



## xabiaxica

Jonathan1989 said:


> Hello Rippenburn
> 
> Could I possibly speak to you about your case in Spain? I'm facing something that sounds similar in Germany and could do with any advice you could give.
> 
> Many thanks
> Jonathan


:welcome:

the laws in germany are probably very different to those in Spain ( I know they are in the UK)) - it might be worth asking a question here Germany Expat Forum for Expats Living in Germany - Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> the laws in germany are probably very different to those in Spain ( I know they are in the UK)) - it might be worth asking a question here Germany Expat Forum for Expats Living in Germany - Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad


If one of the partners is an EU citizen it doesn't matter what the national laws are in a country when it comes to residence because you derive your rights from EU rules. Please let me know what the problem is on this forum.


----------



## xabiaxica

rippenburn said:


> If one of the partners is an EU citizen it doesn't matter what the national laws are in a country when it comes to residence because you derive your rights from EU rules. Please let me know what the problem is on this forum.


there's no problem - I just thought it would be better to ask in 'Germany' because there might well be someone there who has been through the process there - you know, know what the names of the offices, forms & so on are - rather than the Spanish version


I know it IS different in the UK

I personally know a UK citizen who could move to Spain with his EU wife very simply - but to actually get permission for her to live with him in the UK is much more difficult!!

go figure


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> there's no problem - I just thought it would be better to ask in 'Germany' because there might well be someone there who has been through the process there - you know, know what the names of the offices, forms & so on are - rather than the Spanish version
> 
> 
> I know it IS different in the UK
> 
> I personally know a UK citizen who could move to Spain with his EU wife very simply - but to actually get permission for her to live with him in the UK is much more difficult!!
> 
> go figure


Yes, you are one of these people who "knows" someone who had a problem. Well my dear, you are wrong. Just because someone had a problem does not mean the authorities are correct. It takes courage to go after these administrations. I could have told you that it was impossible for my wife to stay if I had not had the guts to contact Manuel Barroso himself or the EU ombudsman but I knew my rights and got justice. If all you can do is provide secondhand experience from unreliable sources I suggest you do and say nothing at all.


----------



## xabiaxica

rippenburn said:


> Yes, you are one of these people who "knows" someone who had a problem. Well my dear, you are wrong. Just because someone had a problem does not mean the authorities are correct. It takes courage to go after these administrations. I could have told you that it was impossible for my wife to stay if I had not had the guts to contact Manuel Barroso himself or the EU ombudsman but I knew my rights and got justice. If all you can do is provide secondhand experience from unreliable sources I suggest you do and say nothing at all.


there is no need to be condescending & personal 

hopefully you CAN help the poster

but he might also get help in the 'Germany' forum - I was simply pointing him in that direction


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> the laws in germany are probably very different to those in Spain ( I know they are in the UK)) - it might be worth asking a question here Germany Expat Forum for Expats Living in Germany - Expat Forum For Expats, For Moving Overseas And For Jobs Abroad


Hi Jonathan

I would like to help you but the moderator has removed the post with my personal email address and I have now asked the web master to close my account, so I won't be contactable on here. Tread very carefully with the advice from people on this forum who base theirs on secondhand knowledge because I can guarantee you the authorities in any country do not listen when you say, "A friend of mine told me ...". Good luck.


----------



## Guest

xabiachica said:


> there is no need to be condescending & personal
> 
> hopefully you CAN help the poster
> 
> but he might also get help in the 'Germany' forum - I was simply pointing him in that direction


You also said the laws are different when they are not. Possibly the circumstances are but not the laws that govern EU citizens. This is not the first time we have had this discussion. Anyway, I'm fed up with you giving unsound advice so I have asked the webmaster to remove my account.


----------



## xabiaxica

rippenburn said:


> You also said the laws are different when they are not. Possibly the circumstances are but not the laws that govern EU citizens. This is not the first time we have had this discussion. Anyway, I'm fed up with you giving unsound advice so I have asked the webmaster to remove my account.


we are in agreement really - the EU laws should override local laws, but as you know, local interpretation can be different, as I believe you found, or you wouldn't have had to go to such lengths yourself


I don't see any harm pointing the poster to our German forum as well as leaving his post here - someone in Germany might just be able to help, too - and the more help people can get, the better

I'm sure you can't disagree with that

as always - for legal cases, people should seek professional help - that's not what this forum is about - we try to point people in the direction where they might find help - and someone on our German forum might just know a local lawyer who can help in the poster's case


----------



## Roxx79

due to the stinking new UK immigration rules, my civil partner (Thai ) and I are considering a move to Spain. Can anyone tell me what we need to do? I would only move if I had a job offer in an international school. We will have two small children with us. 
I understand my partner can apply for residency, but what employment status would she have? She is not the sort who wants to be a stay at home mum! 
Any help most gratefully received!


----------



## xabiaxica

Roxx79 said:


> due to the stinking new UK immigration rules, my civil partner (Thai ) and I are considering a move to Spain. Can anyone tell me what we need to do? I would only move if I had a job offer in an international school. We will have two small children with us.
> I understand my partner can apply for residency, but what employment status would she have? She is not the sort who wants to be a stay at home mum!
> Any help most gratefully received!


as long as you (as the EU citizen) could prove income & healthcare provision you could register as resident

do you have a legal civil partnership status? I believe you'd need to prove that in order for your partner to be able to register as resident - she'd be registering as the 'spouse' of the EU citizen (you), she couldn't register in her own right

once (if) residency was granted she'd be able to work


----------



## Roxx79

xabiachica said:


> as long as you (as the EU citizen) could prove income & healthcare provision you could register as resident
> 
> do you have a legal civil partnership status? I believe you'd need to prove that in order for your partner to be able to register as resident - she'd be registering as the 'spouse' of the EU citizen (you), she couldn't register in her own right
> 
> once (if) residency was granted she'd be able to work


Hello and thanks for the speedy response. We have a UK civil partnership which was carried out in the UK embassy in Hanoi. 
So if we moved there without my having a job, she would need to enter as a tourist, but if I had a job (I think this is the only way we'd do it), we could arrive together as EU citizen and partner and show my employment status etc so that I could register as resident, and they she could do so as my partner? WHat kind of visa would she need in the first instance to gain entry into Spain? 
thanks again.


----------



## xabiaxica

Roxx79 said:


> Hello and thanks for the speedy response. We have a UK civil partnership which was carried out in the UK embassy in Hanoi.
> So if we moved there without my having a job, she would need to enter as a tourist, but if I had a job (I think this is the only way we'd do it), we could arrive together as EU citizen and partner and show my employment status etc so that I could register as resident, and they she could do so as my partner? WHat kind of visa would she need in the first instance to gain entry into Spain?
> thanks again.


you can arrive together as tourists - she'd need a tourist visa (from the Spanish consulate ) but you wouldn't - your partner would have to arrive on a tourist visa regardless

you would have 90 days to register as resident, at which stage you'd need to show the proof of income & healthcare provision - if you have work already arranged then you can obviously register as soon as you arrive & have the contract 

once you are registered _then _she could apply for residency

if your children have EU passports they can register at the same time as you, if not, then they have to apply along with your partner

if you have a look at our FAQ & useful info thread you'll be able to download the forms there - they also tell you what documentation you'd need


:confused2: - I've just been reading your posts on the Britain forum, too - in one you say _you _are pregnant with twins.........but here you refer to your partner as 'she' ............. Is it me who is confused or you? :confused2:


----------



## Roxx79

xabiachica said:


> you can arrive together as tourists - she'd need a tourist visa (from the Spanish consulate ) but you wouldn't - your partner would have to arrive on a tourist visa regardless
> 
> you would have 90 days to register as resident, at which stage you'd need to show the proof of income & healthcare provision - if you have work already arranged then you can obviously register as soon as you arrive & have the contract
> 
> once you are registered _then _she could apply for residency
> 
> if your children have EU passports they can register at the same time as you, if not, then they have to apply along with your partner
> 
> if you have a look at our FAQ & useful info thread you'll be able to download the forms there - they also tell you what documentation you'd need
> 
> 
> :confused2: - I've just been reading your posts on the Britain forum, too - in one you say _you _are pregnant with twins.........but here you refer to your partner as 'she' ............. Is it me who is confused or you? :confused2:


Hehe - I am afraid we are lesbians, so we had IVF and I'm pregnant. She is my civil partner and will be the other legal parent in UK law. It's all UK law but it seems we are unable to live there. None of these laws that protect our family are effective here in Thailand, which is one of the reasons (along with being close to my family) that we want to move home. I hope that clears things up.


----------



## xabiaxica

Roxx79 said:


> Hehe - I am afraid we are lesbians, so we had IVF and I'm pregnant. She is my civil partner and will be the other legal parent in UK law. It's all UK law but it seems we are unable to live there. None of these laws that protect our family are effective here in Thailand, which is one of the reasons (along with being close to my family) that we want to move home. I hope that clears things up.


oops 

forgive my foot in mouth - & congrats with the babies 

yes I totally see why you want to move - I think the first thing you need to do, is find out _for sure _if your civil partnership will be recognised in Spain - I know that 'gay marriage' for want of a better phrase, is recognised & happens here all the time - but because yours is under UK law & took place in a 3rd country, the Spanish authorities might just get confused - anything not quite straightforward & some _funcionarios _will just throw their hands in the air & say 'no es possible'


some friends of mine had to get 'remarried' here in Spain - or it might have been that they had to get the relationship recognised as _parejas de hecho _(sort of civil partnership) in order for their relationship to be recognised here

apparently marriage is the easier & faster of the two routes

they are both English ladies so it wasn't a case of residency issues, & there are no children involved - but there was some reason they needed to do it - I didn't ask


----------



## Roxx79

Ah that's a bit dismal - I have just been reading that it's not possible to get the parejas de hecho when already in a CP as you need a certificate of no impediment - obviously unavailable as we are already in a legal commitment to each other. 

As far as I am aware, a CP is a CP is a CP, and should be valid if sealed wherever it was carried out. If not I will feel just all round duped!! We were married in the UK embassy in Hanoi , Vietnam by the Vice consul there. 

But you are right, it may be that extra explanation and notorisation (apostilisation??) are required, perhaps at the UK embassy in Spain?


----------



## xabiaxica

Roxx79 said:


> Ah that's a bit dismal - I have just been reading that it's not possible to get the parejas de hecho when already in a CP as you need a certificate of no impediment - obviously unavailable as we are already in a legal commitment to each other.
> 
> As far as I am aware, a CP is a CP is a CP, and should be valid if sealed wherever it was carried out. If not I will feel just all round duped!! We were married in the UK embassy in Hanoi , Vietnam by the Vice consul there.
> 
> But you are right, it may be that extra explanation and notorisation (apostilisation??) are required, perhaps at the UK embassy in Spain?


I agree - but as I said - if the funcionario on the day gets confused then you don't stand a chance - so the belt & braces approach is best

I recently had to get my daughters' birth certificates apostilled for something - I had to send them to the UK - they couldn't be done anywhere else - here's a link

The Legalisation Office (FCO) - The only competent authority in the UK to issue apostilles and legalisation certificates.

this despite us being here over 8 years, being in the system all that time & having used the very same birth certs for various official things over the years - a new rule earlier in the year meant they had to be apostilled (not cheap either)


----------



## Roxx79

xabiachica said:


> I agree - but as I said - if the funcionario on the day gets confused then you don't stand a chance - so the belt & braces approach is best
> 
> I recently had to get my daughters' birth certificates apostilled for something - I had to send them to the UK - they couldn't be done anywhere else - here's a link
> 
> The Legalisation Office (FCO) - The only competent authority in the UK to issue apostilles and legalisation certificates.
> 
> this despite us being here over 8 years, being in the system all that time & having used the very same birth certs for various official things over the years - a new rule earlier in the year meant they had to be apostilled (not cheap either)


Thank you - I am not sure what 'apostilled' means, would you advise our doing it now /as soon as possible? Would we be able to do it in any UK embassy?


----------



## Roxx79

Sorry - have found the answer already


----------



## xabiaxica

Roxx79 said:


> Thank you - I am not sure what 'apostilled' means, would you advise our doing it now /as soon as possible? Would we be able to do it in any UK embassy?


it's an official stamp - & can only be done by the legalisation office in the UK - the link I gave - you post or courier the original & they stick this piece of paper on it 

knowing the Spanish obsession for things being 'current' I would wait until you need it - even the Spanish have to get new copies of their own birth certs if they need it for official purposes - the one produced at the time of birth is apparently 'out of date' after 3 months!


----------



## annatogether

*Moving from France w/spouse visa?*

Hello--

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but this seemed like the most relevant thread..

I am American, married to a French citizen. I have been living in France a year, and have a long-stay visa.

We would like to move to Spain in January.

Do I need something other than the 
Certificado de registro como residente comunitario and 
Número de Identificación de Extranjero?

Also, how much does it cost?

Thank you for your help!
Anna


----------



## xabiaxica

annatogether said:


> Hello--
> 
> Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but this seemed like the most relevant thread..
> 
> I am American, married to a French citizen. I have been living in France a year, and have a long-stay visa.
> 
> We would like to move to Spain in January.
> 
> Do I need something other than the
> Certificado de registro como residente comunitario and
> Número de Identificación de Extranjero?
> 
> Also, how much does it cost?
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> Anna


:welcome:

first your husband would have to register as resident here - for that he'd need to prove sufficient income & healthcare provision - the actual certificate costs about 10€

then you could apply for residency as his spouse - I'm afriad I have no idea how much that costs - maybe gracegaldo on here could give you some pointers when she next pops in - she is married to a US citizen & they are in the process of applying atm


----------



## annatogether

Thank you!
Yes, also we are considering Donostia, so if there are any expat groups there, I would love to get in touch!




xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> first your husband would have to register as resident here - for that he'd need to prove sufficient income & healthcare provision - the actual certificate costs about 10€
> 
> then you could apply for residency as his spouse - I'm afriad I have no idea how much that costs - maybe gracegaldo on here could give you some pointers when she next pops in - she is married to a US citizen & they are in the process of applying atm


----------



## aletadetiburon

This is incredibly helpful, thank you! My husband and I are in the same situation, he is German and I am a U.S. citizen, and both of us are establishing residency in Spain. 



sonitaw said:


> Around the same time go onto mpr.es Ministerio de la Presidencia - MPR.es :: Portada[/url] and make an appointment with “Servicio de Cita Previa” you will need to select “RESIDENCE PERMIT FOR RELATIVES OF EU NATIONALS” (tarjeta de residencia de familiar de ciudadano de la Unión)


Unfortunately the link didn't work, and I'm having a hard time finding the link where I can make an appointment. Can you provide the direct link?


----------



## xabiaxica

aletadetiburon said:


> This is incredibly helpful, thank you! My husband and I are in the same situation, he is German and I am a U.S. citizen, and both of us are establishing residency in Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately the link didn't work, and I'm having a hard time finding the link where I can make an appointment. Can you provide the direct link?


is your husband already registered as resident?

if not then he needs to go to the nearest extranjería (foreigners office) & register - then you can register as his spouse

if you look at our *FAQs & useful info* thread above you'll find the forms & other info, including where to find the nearest extranjería

they will tell you there exactly what info you need to provide


----------



## aletadetiburon

Thanks Xabia, we are in the process of getting him registered as a resident which I understand needs to come first, but since it sounds like it will take a while to get an appointment to get me registered, I thought I'd request an appointment now. Hopefully he'll be registered by the time my appointment date comes.


----------



## xabiaxica

aletadetiburon said:


> Thanks Xabia, we are in the process of getting him registered as a resident which I understand needs to come first, but since it sounds like it will take a while to get an appointment to get me registered, I thought I'd request an appointment now. Hopefully he'll be registered by the time my appointment date comes.


providing he has all the required paperwork his registration is just a formailty - the resident registration certificate/card is issued on the spot

I don't _think _you'll be given an appointment unless he is already registered - most who post here seem to apply at the same time - the EU spouse gets the registration cert & the non-EU spouse applies at the same time


----------



## aletadetiburon

xabiachica said:


> providing he has all the required paperwork his registration is just a formailty - the resident registration certificate/card is issued on the spot
> 
> I don't _think _you'll be given an appointment unless he is already registered - most who post here seem to apply at the same time - the EU spouse gets the registration cert & the non-EU spouse applies at the same time



Interesting. This article and some information we got from an immigration lawyer both give us the impression that they're separate steps, but you might be right.

We plan to go down to the Oficina de Extranjeros on Monday and see what happens. Wish us luck!


----------



## xabiaxica

aletadetiburon said:


> Interesting. This article and some information we got from an immigration lawyer both give us the impression that they're separate steps, but you might be right.
> 
> We plan to go down to the Oficina de Extranjeros on Monday and see what happens. Wish us luck!


yes they are essentially separate - but you can't apply until he is registered - so in that way they are linked


incidentally - all the forms are downloadable from the _*FAQS & useful info*_ thread, above - both for him to register & for you


----------



## arfan

*marriage certificate*

hi i am british citezen applying for my pakistani wife nie in spain i would like to know that a marriage certificate issued in last 3 months and legalized is accepted or can a marriage certificate older tha 3 months but legalized in last 3 months be accepted when applying for spanish residency card
thanks in advance


----------



## aletadetiburon

arfan said:


> hi i am british citezen applying for my pakistani wife nie in spain i would like to know that a marriage certificate issued in last 3 months and legalized is accepted or can a marriage certificate older tha 3 months but legalized in last 3 months be accepted when applying for spanish residency card
> thanks in advance


Hi Arfan,

I just consulted my notes from when I recently went through this process, and all of them say that the certificate can be no older than 3 months - this information came from several sources, including an immigration lawyer we consulted. 

If it is only slightly older than that, and it is a huge hassle for you to get a more recent copy of your marriage certificate and then legalize it, you might try submitting what you have. Make sure that all the rest of your ducks are in a row - bring extra copies of everything, just in case!! I get the sense that if you get someone who is sympathetic to your situation, they are more likely to let something like that through, even if it is outside of the time limit. 

The lawyer told us that if my husband is an EU citizen, and we are legally married before my visa expired (I entered Spain with a 90-day Shengen visa), I have a legal right to live in the Spain, even if the paperwork isn't completed by the time my visa expires. So I am pretty confident in saying that as long as the paperwork is in process by the time her visa expires, and you can demonstrate that, you should be fine.

The person who processed my NIE application (as the wife of a German citizen) asked for a copy of something that we only had the original of, however we had everything else required, with extra copies, so he generously made a copy of the original for us (with a printer RIGHT next to his desk!! I don't understand why they require us to bring copies of everything when they can make copies there) and processed the application anyway.

Good luck!


----------



## joshjadavies

xabiachica said:


> is your husband already registered as resident?
> 
> if not then he needs to go to the nearest extranjería (foreigners office) & register - then you can register as his spouse
> 
> if you look at our *FAQs & useful info* thread above you'll find the forms & other info, including where to find the nearest extranjería
> 
> they will tell you there exactly what info you need to provide


A question about residency. I'm in Spain with my UK gf. We are thinking about going to Gibraltar to get married. My UK gf has her NIE, social security number, and works here in Barcelona but she actually never got a residency card. She hasn't seemed to need it thus far. I'm assuming that before I can apply for my residency card she needs hers right? Does she just go to the Oficina de externjeros and apply?

A side note, for the last 6 months she has worked for a company here but recently left the company to start doing free lance work for herself. She has not applied yet to be autonoma. Will this be a problem when she applies for her residency?

Thanks a lot
Josh


----------



## joshjadavies

joshjadavies said:


> A question about residency. I'm in Spain with my UK gf. We are thinking about going to Gibraltar to get married. My UK gf has her NIE, social security number, and works here in Barcelona but she actually never got a residency card. She hasn't seemed to need it thus far. I'm assuming that before I can apply for my residency card she needs hers right? Does she just go to the Oficina de externjeros and apply?
> 
> A side note, for the last 6 months she has worked for a company here but recently left the company to start doing free lance work for herself. She has not applied yet to be autonoma. Will this be a problem when she applies for her residency?
> 
> Thanks a lot
> Josh


Also on the EX-18 form for her to apply for residency there are 2 options residencia temporal and residencia permanente. What is required to apply for the permanente 5 años?


----------



## snikpoh

joshjadavies said:


> Also on the EX-18 form for her to apply for residency there are 2 options residencia temporal and residencia permanente. What is required to apply for the permanente 5 años?


As far as I'm aware, there is no difference. I also always thought that permanent was just than and that it did NOR run out after 5 years - do you know differently?


----------



## xabiaxica

joshjadavies said:


> A question about residency. I'm in Spain with my UK gf. We are thinking about going to Gibraltar to get married. My UK gf has her NIE, social security number, and works here in Barcelona but she actually never got a residency card. She hasn't seemed to need it thus far. I'm assuming that before I can apply for my residency card she needs hers right? Does she just go to the Oficina de externjeros and apply?
> 
> A side note, for the last 6 months she has worked for a company here but recently left the company to start doing free lance work for herself. She has not applied yet to be autonoma. Will this be a problem when she applies for her residency?
> 
> Thanks a lot
> Josh


getting married on Gibraltar has nothing to with your, or your girlfriend's, residency position in Spain - it isn't part of Spain

however - to answer the rest of your questions......

yes, she needs to register as resident before you can apply for residency

yes, she needs to register as autónoma - in order to prove income & healthcare provision she'll need her vida laboral for that


----------



## joshjadavies

xabiachica said:


> getting married on Gibraltar has nothing to with your, or your girlfriend's, residency position in Spain - it isn't part of Spain
> she'll need her vida laboral for that


Sorry i wasn't clear, pareja de hecho has been cancelled in Barcelona where we live so I believe the only other way to apply as a family member to an EU citizen is get married. Which is why I mention Gibraltar.


----------



## aletadetiburon

joshjadavies said:


> Sorry i wasn't clear, pareja de hecho has been cancelled in Barcelona where we live so I believe the only other way to apply as a family member to an EU citizen is get married. Which is why I mention Gibraltar.


Josh, I believe that going to Gilbraltar might be easier since your gf is a UK citizen and you would be marrying in UK territory; but only easier in the sense that it allows you to avoid the extra step that I had to take of getting your marriage legally recognized in the UK (for me it was Germany) before Spain will recognize it and grant you residency. By marrying in the UK, there will be less paperwork involved in that respect.

However as Xabiachica mentions above, your partner will still need to file paperwork for legal residency in Spain before you can apply. And in order to do that, she'll need to prove that she has her ducks in a row as far as taxes and whatnot are concerned. I don't know the details because we went a different route to prove that my husband met criteria for residency, but others in the forum here might be able to help you and your gf out with those.


----------



## joshjadavies

xabiachica said:


> getting married on Gibraltar has nothing to with your, or your girlfriend's, residency position in Spain - it isn't part of Spain however - to answer the rest of your questions...... yes, she needs to register as resident before you can apply for residency yes, she needs to register as autónoma - in order to prove income & healthcare provision she'll need her vida laboral for that


My gf has her NIE, número de seguridad social, and a little blue card that says, Certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión. 
Residente comunitario en España desde 5/3/2012. 

Thats not a residency card is it?


----------



## aletadetiburon

joshjadavies said:


> My gf has her NIE, número de seguridad social, and a little blue card that says, Certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión.
> Residente comunitario en España desde 5/3/2012.
> 
> Thats not a residency card is it?


Yep! That's her residency card. My husband got his NIE and residency card at the same time, so it was a bit confusing in that respect. If she already has that, then the next step is to get married (!!) and start collecting all the paperwork you need for your residency application as family of an EU citizen. You can find the requirements here. Keep in mind that you will need to book your appointment to apply in advance, which you can do online at the link on this page. (unfortunately the SSL certificate is not trusted, you'll just have to take that risk to use the online appointment system) 

The card you describe also sounds like my husband's: 

[Spanish coat of arms] ESPAÑA
Certificado de Registro de Ciudado de la Unión
El encargado del Registro Central de Extranjeros certifica que:

D./Da: (name)
Nacido: (birthdate & location)
NIE: ****** Nacionalidad: (country of nationality)
Domicilio: (address)
Residente comunitario en España desde: (date)

It has a seal at the bottom along with the date the card was issued and the name of the issuer.

Good luck! Let me know if you have any further questions about the process.


----------



## xabiaxica

joshjadavies said:


> My gf has her NIE, número de seguridad social, and a little blue card that says, Certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión.
> Residente comunitario en España desde 5/3/2012.
> 
> Thats not a residency card is it?


a sort of bue/green card?


made of card & plasticised (as opposed to made of plastic or laminated)

yes - that's exactly what it is


----------



## joshjadavies

xabiachica said:


> a sort of bue/green card? made of card & plasticised (as opposed to made of plastic or laminated) yes - that's exactly what it is


Yep, plastic blue green card.


----------



## TCL1972

Hi everybody,

I'm wondering if anybody has any experience with applying for Spanish residency with a marriage from Gibraltar? Here is a little bit of facts about our case.

My wife (Spanish) and I (American) married in Gibraltar in February 2015. The Extranjería told us that to apply for the Tarjeta de Residencia de Familiar de Ciudadano de la UE, the Gibraltar marriage certificate is no good even though it is properly apostilled and the territory is a member of the EU. We would need to register our marriage at the La Línea Civil Registry and use the libro de familia from La Línea to apply for my residency card at the Extranjería. So after a few months of collecting my documents (it involved papers from the US and a couple other countries because of my family's nomadic habits), we duly lodged all the necessary paperwork at the La Línea Civil Registry on 1 July 2015. So far nothing has emerged from the civil registry at La Línea. Their answers went from the initial 3 month estimate, to 5 months, to now "we don't know how long it would take" to register our marriage. 

Since I had been on work travels the last few months and I'm currently an Australian resident, we didn't mind the slow pace of the Spanish bureaucracy. But I am back in Spain and the Schengen Zone (3 August 2015 entry), and I understand that I would need to apply for the Tarjeta de Residencia within 90 days of entering Europe. I have an appointment with the Extranjería on 8 October 2015, but if I cannot produce a libro de familia from La Línea on that date, a helpful Extranjería information officer told us that they may or may not accept my application and issue me a provisional residency document. 

Does anybody have any experience with applying for Spanish residency for EU spouse with a Gibraltar marriage certificate? If yes, what was your experience with La Línea and the Extranjería, and would you have any advice for us?

I would appreciate any suggestions on how to sort out the Spanish bureaucracy. Many thanks!

Ted


----------



## TCL1972

additionally, if La Línea's delay compels me to exceed the 90-days deadline to apply for residency, should I leave the Schengen Zone and return when La Línea issues the libro de familia? If I stay, would I experience immigration issues with Spain and other Schengen states? 

Thanks again!

Ted


----------



## liliana80

TCL1972 said:


> So far nothing has emerged from the civil registry at La Línea. Their answers went from the initial 3 month estimate, to 5 months, to now "we don't know how long it would take" to register our marriage.


Yep, their answer to us was basically that they'll get to it when they get to it. They barely work during the summer so don't expect anything soon.



TCL1972 said:


> I have an appointment with the Extranjería on 8 October 2015, but if I cannot produce a libro de familia from La Línea on that date, a helpful Extranjería information officer told us that they may or may not accept my application and issue me a provisional residency document.


I dunno, you'll have to see. 



TCL1972 said:


> additionally, if La Línea's delay compels me to exceed the 90-days deadline to apply for residency, should I leave the Schengen Zone and return when La Línea issues the libro de familia? If I stay, would I experience immigration issues with Spain and other Schengen states?


Nope. La Linea made me go over the expiry of my visa. If you're already married then you are protected under the Regimen Comunitario. You already have the right to be in Spain as the spouse of a Spanish citizen. The tarjeta de residencia is simply a document which shows that you have this right. I've discussed it on page 3 of this thread: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...in/761146-help-please-nie-student-visa-3.html


----------



## TCL1972

Liliana,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Cheers!

Ted


----------

