# Morelia vs San Miguel



## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

For those of you who have been and maybe lived in both Morelia and in San Miguel del Allenda I would like some feed back. What are some of the differences between the two and what are some of the simularitaries?

I would really appreciate your thoughs. Surfrider


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Very few gringos vs. lots of them


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## ValRomx (Nov 12, 2012)

*Some differences*


Morelia is the capital of the state of Michoacan, population over 700,000
San Miguel in Guanajuato has a population of about 160,000 counting non-contiguous portions that are serviced by its police, etc.
Both are about the same altitude, but not attitude
I think Jennifer Rose has lived in both places, she blogged for a while from Morelia, don't know if she still does
Morelia is about 60 km closer to Mexico City
Morelia has its own airport, closest international airports to San Miguel are Leon, about 170 km and Queretaro 70 km


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*Indulge in Both*

Night and day differences between both those cities and their lifestyles.
They are not that far apart time wise in travel - so go visit spend a week
in both and you'll quickly see.

Another point you can get advice on this board, but probably might not
have the exact same experiences as others. Take two people set them
out on a visit to the same city but not together and you'll get two completely
different experiences recorded.

Like I said they're real close together time wise in travel - just go experience
them yourself. Funny thing, you just might really fall in love with both of them
for completely different reasons?

So much to love in Mexico!


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

Isn't it fantastic how different each town or city is from one another. I have spent time in Morelia and it does have a lot to offer, now it is time to spend in San Miguel. While I like the non-****** way, my son who will never learn Spanish because of his disability needs to be around more English speaking folks...and in a small place - although I do not think of San Miguel as that small. 
I also noticed that the housing is quite different between the two and I think that the type of housing that San Miguel offers is better for him. But you are right - visits and stays before moving.
I have been living in different area's to "locate" the right place for him. My house is on the market in the states and I want to make a decission within six months about where to build.
I think I know enough about Morelia - now onto San Miguel. Thanks everyone for your thoughts on the two places. And Merry Christmas to all.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

I like both places, Morelia is a larger City, lots OF things to do and places to go. Beautyful

San Miguel, I like it better for living; cozier, close to Querétaro (hospitals and services) and much better communicated; closer to the highway 57
Saludos!


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

You are doing the right thing by spending time in both.
They are really so dissimilar that I wouldn't even know where to start.


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*Where to Build?*

Hi Surfrider;

I picked up on that one sentenance, "...where to build..". 

San Miguel de Allende is a prime candidate to get 30-50% or more for your money by buying an existing house. Many Europeans have homes in SMD and I know most retirees don't keep up with Economic news - but the E.E.U.U. Economy including now even Germany is in the dumpster.

First things to be jetisioned are second, third homes even by people that passed themselves off as being rich. 

Have you ever built in Mexico? Are you a drinking gal? You will be after dealing with construction in Mexico. The whole main emphasis on everybody involved in the process is NOT finishing the job. Oh, and what goes for an education for Architects down here is at least in the bidding process of what the job will cost is woefully lacking! Everyone just goes by the assumption they keep working until your money runs out - period. Construction in Mexico is not for the faint at heart and the older you get the more tramatic it will be on you. How about the thought you move and invest all the money from the sale of your house in the USA and then some of your retirement money - and you end up with a house only 75% completed and only partially habitable?

If you want to customize an existing house for you and your son, consider this. An old home with adobe walls, can have the plaster stripped and a couple of inches of concrete and plaster put on like they rehab "Casas Historico", that are under INAH's supervision all over Mexico. That way you might not need heating, (as it can get quite cold in SMD) nor A/C in the summertime. Look for a house with high ceilings, like the Spanish knew how to build them. Stear away from any house classified by INAH unless you have a lot of bucks to put into it. Once construction starts, you don't get much say in it - the INAH Architect does. Think of it, as you're only a care taker for a Historic, Architectural Treasure of Mexico.


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Surfrider;
> 
> I picked up on that one sentenance, "...where to build..".
> 
> ...


Really great input, thank you. I have personally built one house by myself (I was younger) but I have also made over 39 different houses usually only keeping three or four existing exterior walls. I have sold real estate for over 20 years and worked internationally in that area as well. 
Mexico to me has been like a big giant surprise package with a bunch of little boxes inside that are more surprises. There are the beaches - the mountains and on and on. I think I could live here 50 years and still not know where I want to live. 
I would love to get my hands on an old hacienda and re-do it but have control of the project. Can you bring in outside workers for a project like that?


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh and by the way cuylser5746 I have been known to have a drink now and then.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

surfrider said:


> …I would love to get my hands on an old hacienda and re-do it but have control of the project. Can you bring in outside workers for a project like that?


By bringing in outside workers, do you mean bring down construction people from Canada or the US? Be aware that construction procedures are different in Mexico. It can be hard to find materials that you are used to in the US. For example, when I put in my solar hot water system, I wanted to put dielectric unions between the old galvanized and the new copper. I couldn't find them in Mexico and ended up bringing them back from a trip to the US. Outside workers may find it a challenge.

I would think it would be better to hire local people to work for you. Besides the local economy probably needs the money you pay the workers more than the US or Canada does.


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

*House Construction*

Hi Surfrider;

Interesting background you have. It should come in handy when doing any kind of renovation here in Mexico from something that you would buy.

First, nope no Hacienda's in SMD - at least from what we saw. Most of the historic old houses have already been renovated over the last 30 years by ******'s and others, but I'm sure there are still some fairly new (80-100 year old houses) to buy up and renovate. I'd suggest you first rent, live there awhile and visit some of the incredibly beautiful resortations, some of them offer tours before you even consider renovating a home in SMD. They wrote the book on that for all of Mexico. I mean you have no idea what "quaint" means in SMD, many artists involved in these restorations. Go see even some of the B&B's that have been fixed up by artists before attempting it yourself. Not that you couldn't do it, but "broadening your horizons", on what can be done seems to be understated in once you've spent a little time in SMD. I think it's a World Heritage City like Guanajuato, Guanajuato? There's definitely good reason smart, wealthy people from over 70 countries bought there.

Bringing in workers from the outside? NOPE! First bringing in Foreign workers to work on your place can get them first jailed, then deported. Pretty strict about that down here, as they want to keep Mexican's working. If it's on an INAH property, probably shut down the job for quite a while and give you a good sized fine. You can't even paint the outside of your restored house without a special permit from them and they only have a few colors they'll accept for you to use.

Now if you built out of town or reconstruction - "maybe" you could get away with some friends coming down and working on it. I'd just hire some local laborers to help and let them go into town if not you (not your Foreign friends) to get any materials. That way they'd think you were doing the work yourself?

An old, INAH controlled house. Well think of it this way, normally a lot of Mexican's ignore laws that aren't "convient" for them. Think of working with INAH as working in the USA with the some very strict Building Inspectors looking over everything you do on a weekly basis. Oh, and you can't just hire any Architect to run the project. No. No. No! It has to be from a small select group
of "INAH" approved Architects, that know exactly how INAH expects things to be done.

We have personal rewarding experience from renovating my Mother-in-Law's old family home of about 6000 sq. ft. into a Strip Mall and Parking Lot. It was built about 1750. But then again I among other careers was a Project Manager for a large Aerospace Company on many multi-million dollars jobs. Many rewarding stories getting this all done.

I insisted we put all the drawings on AutoCAD, and supervised the Architect. First one a family friend, I had to demand be fired, as he couldn't Supervisor even getting out of the parking lot by himself. I fired so many, "non working" Aboneils it wasn't funny. I had to shut down construction send every one home for a few days demanding after months to finally see the detailed Construction Cost details. Finally after not being paid - the Architect showed back up and it took a 4 hour meeting completing what he had after 3 months time, and like hand feeding him like a baby - "what would this big metal door cost to the Parking Lot"? Item by item on the AutoCad drawings. I finally put the whole project on that afterwards on MS Project. 

Incredibly we finished within 3 weeks of my projections and withing 90% of the estimate, I tortured out of the Architect. It was only after asking my niece to see her books and class schedule during this whole affair - as she was attending Inst. Tech. de Monterrey for Architecture, that I saw all even the latest graduates got on costing was one week of class and exercises. Pitiful. No wonder the vast majority of new construction doesn't get completely completed. I have one such house currently shut down - run out of money on my same block.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Cuyler is right that a building project can run over budget easily in Mexico.

One way to avoid project cost bloat on a home build is to bid it in phases. Some Puerto Rican friends of ours here in Guanajuato built a lovely 2000 sq foot home and it came in precisely on budget. They managed that by having the project bid step by step -- architectural plan, cimentaciones (foundation), rough build (obra negra), electrical/plumbing and finishings (acabados). 

The architect wanted to secure the work of each next phase, so he made sure that the current stage came in at budget. When they got to the final stage of acabados the owners felt that the architect bid too high so they decided to sub-contract each part of the acabados (flooring, bathrooms, kitchen, windows etc.) themselves. The architect was furious that they took away the last and most expensive stage from him. Interestingly, their eventual cost via the sub-contactors came out to be exactly what the architect had originally bid!

They were lucky to have an honest architect managing most of their project. We have heard several tales of less than scrupulous architects milking their clients. There is one story of a couple that actually paid their architect in full up front for the entire project. The architect used the money to build a house for himself and never even started the house for the clients. Seven years later they are still fighting in court and don't have a house nor has any of their money been refunded.


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

My that sounds like a good old time. Gad! You know, I have really got to think about the word retirement.


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## Anonimo (Apr 8, 2012)

*Home Is Where The Heart Is*

Getting back to the original topic: I have been in Morelia many times (as recently as yesterday) and in SMA only 3 times. Last time was November, 2009.

That doesn't necessarily mean I prefer Morelia. It's just a lot closer to where we live. But I have a love-hate relationship with Morelia. The Centro Histórico is beautiful, or perhaps "handsome" is a better description. There are excellent restaurants sprinkled around the city, both of Mexican and international styles. There's very good shopping, both in free standing stores as well as magnificent mals. There's culture in abundance. There's also Home Depot, Sam's Costco, Superama, etc.

Some neighborhoods are lovely but others are scuzzy and run down. Sometimes the two are separated by a single street.

The traffic is often very bad, but almost always worse in Centro. We dislike driving and especially parking in Centro. Too often, there are demonstrations which disrupt traffic and screw up the entire city through a domino effect. There is noise, there is moderate air pollution as well. It's exciting to go to Morelia, but it's even better when we head homeward, up the hill into the cool uplands.


San Miguel is a much smaller city. We think it's beautiful. The restaurants tend to have good reputations, but in our experience are almost uniformly disappointing. Of course, we haven't tried them all. Walking on cobblestone streets is tedious and hazardous.

We are little interested in craft and art shopping, so I have no opinion on that. The famed ****** expat population? We were in SMA so briefly, that we had very little contact with this ethnic sub group, mostly pleasant. Living there might not be to my taste, not because it's unpleasant, but because we are so relatively integrated into the rural ranching community where we live in Michoacán. We are content here, and it's good to have Morelia 45 minutes away, and SMA about 3 hours, when we want a change of scene, but this is home.


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## sag42 (Mar 22, 2012)

Anonimo: Beautiful location in a beautiful state. How's the security issue where you live.Michoacan is one of the most attractive states in Mexico. But I believe there have been some problems with organized crime in parts of the state. Apparently you have found your own little paradise in Michoacan, Mexico. Your are very fortunate.


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## cuylers5746 (Mar 19, 2012)

Hey Surfrider;

Then you're perfectly prepared to renovate or build a house in Mexico!


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## Anonimo (Apr 8, 2012)

We haven't had any problems recently with organized crime. A few years ago, the narcos seized buses and trucks and roadblocked entry points to Morelia, burning some in the process. It was very alarming and disconcerting. especially since we were planning on busing from Morelia to Guadalajara. But the situation was resolved and we were able to make the trip.

There is conflict between carteles and the government, but it has not, so far, (to the best of my knowledge) impacted expat residents or tourists.

Petty crime; yes, there is that and one needs to take measures to safeguard property and valuables, as in most places.


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## surfrider (Oct 4, 2011)

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey Surfrider;
> 
> Then you're perfectly prepared to renovate or build a house in Mexico!


Well it is nothing new to me but we shall see. Mexico to me is like a constant surprise, every place is so different. I have not even seen the beaches yet. But I will say that this forum has sure helped me with some facts about places. I want to thank all of you for your past and present input. It really has been a blessing to have all of the suggestion.


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