# Life in the ghetto



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A Spanish view of San Fulgencio, a community in Alicante where two-thirds of the residents are British.


Welcome to Spain’s foreign capital


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

It's almost surreal reading that article. 

In hour house hunt we did look at La Marina as it was on the edge of our radius but not a single house came up that I could see ourselves living in.
Horses for course and all that.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I expect they mostly enjoy life and probably don't cause too many problems.

What I found shocking was that there is a Scotsman there called Jeffrey Wiszniewski.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

My OH's family owns a house in San Fulgencio, in the "upper" part. I'm not sure why Pazcat says it's surreal reading the article. I think it's pretty spot on.

I was not impressed with the town. OH hates it. I was shocked at the debauchery from middle aged (or older) vacationers/locals (I'm not sure) that I saw while I was there. I've got a number of stories about drunk driving in the town and OH will forever have a scar on his forehead from a drunk and coked-up Dane who darn near killed him. 

Of course, not all the 9,862 residents worship Bacchus. However, at night I felt as if I were in a university town. Except, the "students" were fifty or older.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I'm not saying it's not a reasonable description of life in the area but the second half of that article reads like a comedy/tragedy. And again the real sad part is it is a reasonable description of life in these parts. It would be surreal if I didn't know it to be true.

Coppers with one bung eye, vote rigging, a mayor who can't speak Spanish, bribery, arresting the entire local government and of course the obligatory swathes of illegal builds amongst other things.

It's not really the integration or lack of it part that I find odd(although it will always cause problems), just the subtilties of living in the Alicante province.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> A Spanish view of San Fulgencio, a community in Alicante where two-thirds of the residents are British.
> 
> 
> Welcome to Spain’s foreign capital


Interesting, thanks for posting it.
I have no idea if it's true or not, but from my limited experience of Orihuela Costa and Torrevieja I have no reason to disbelieve it.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> I'm not saying it's not a reasonable description of life in the area but the second half of that article reads like a comedy/tragedy. And again the real sad part is it is a reasonable description of life in these parts. It would be surreal if I didn't know it to be true.
> 
> Coppers with one bung eye, vote rigging, a mayor who can't speak Spanish, bribery, arresting the entire local government and of course the obligatory swathes of illegal builds amongst other things.
> 
> It's not really the integration or lack of it part that I find odd(although it will always cause problems), just the subtilties of living in the Alicante province.


Understood. I totally agree.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Bit of a non- event, that article. It told us that the town has a lot of Brits who don't speak English. Not sure how we are expected to react and the Spanish author of the piece refrained from passing judgment, confining himself to description.
Frankly, I couldn't give a toss how other Brits choose to live in Spain as long as they behave. The thought of ancient debauchery is a tad off- putting I must admit but I dare say lifein Triana or parts of Madridor Barcelona have their fair share of Spanish debauchery.
It just goes to show that ethnicgroups tend to congregate whether Brits in Spain, Poles in Kensington, Aussies in Earls Court, Sikhs in Southall or Pakistanis in Romford.
When I drove across the Spanish border six years ago I don't recall being given a booklet directing me as to how to live my life in Spain.
I chose to learn Spanish, livein a mainly Spanish area, join Spanish clubs etc. etc. Others choose a different kind of life, UK with sun.
Good luck to them.
But I shan't be visiting.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Bit of a non- event, that article. It told us that the town has a lot of Brits who don't speak English. Not sure how we are expected to react and the Spanish author of the piece refrained from passing judgment, confining himself to description.


But it wasn't really written for our benefit. It might be newsworthy or interesting to other readers who aren't themselves British expats. _EP in English_ has a worldwide reach.

I thought the last paragraph was interesting. They are clearly doing something right.



> Demographics suggest that San Fulgencio has survived the crisis. Those who predicted a massive return of foreigners back to their native countries were wrong. Unlike other foreigner-oriented residential estates on the Alicante coast that have turned into ghost towns, this place has resisted the onslaught of the real estate bubble and even the devaluation of the pound. San Fulgencio lives on.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Incidentally, is itcorrect to use the term 'ghetto' to describe the part of town inhabited mainly by Brits?
'Ghetto' is an emotive word with a real meaning. People do not go willingly into ghettos. They were traditionally places of forced confinement and death for the Jews of Europe.
The residents of the townin the article chose to live there. They were not compelled to do so.

This thread title is misleading. A newcomer to the Forum might expect to find a post on the sad lifeof Jews in the Lodz or Warsaw ghetto, not a link leadingusto a piece on bowls- playing monoglot Brits in Spain.

Just saying...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

This made me giggle:-


"A notary who wished to remain anonymous said that several British citizens who wanted to apply for Spanish citizenship gave up when they found out that speaking Spanish was a requirement."

Sure, the residents of places like this can live their lives however they like, provided they obey Spanish laws and pay their taxes. I can't help wondering, though, how many of them are given to ranting about immigrants in their home country "taking over" certain areas, not wanting to integrate and not wanting to learn the language. They never seem to see any irony in that.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But it wasn't really written for our benefit. It might be newsworthy or interesting to other readers who aren't themselves British expats. _EP in English_ has a worldwide reach.
> 
> I thought the last paragraph was interesting. They are clearly doing something right.


True but it said nothing that hasn't been said many times in Spanish or English.

What they are doing right is living the kind of life that suits them, it seems. Contented people enjoying the kind of life that wouldn't suit me in any country in the world.
They are doing so totally unself consciously, or so it would seem, and have no,desire to integrate. No angst, no stress, no pressure....ingredients for a long and healthy life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R;509441
Sure said:


> b
> 
> 
> I dare say some of them might think that but there is as yet no proven correlation between living in an exclusively Brit community and expressing those kinds of views. We mustn't stereotype.
> ...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't think I would like living in a place like that, better off here with my Venezuelan neighbours.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> I don't think I would like living in a place like that, better off here with my Venezuelan neighbours.


I would hate it. But lots of older people prefer being with their own kind. Nothing racist about it, just a human preference. I'm guessing many older retirees haven't done a lot of independent travelling and feel safer in these kinds of towns where they can play cards, bowls etc with fellow Brits.
They are enjoying their retirement after decades of work in their chosen way.

I went to Torrevieja and Alicante in the 1960s. Lovely quiet little places.
Haven't been back since.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, is itcorrect to use the term 'ghetto' to describe the part of town inhabited mainly by Brits?
> 'Ghetto' is an emotive word with a real meaning. People do not go willingly into ghettos. They were traditionally places of forced confinement and death for the Jews of Europe.
> The residents of the townin the article chose to live there. They were not compelled to do so.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find that these days it's in common usage as an area which is inhabited by an ethnic or other minority group, segregated from the majority, voluntarily or otherwise.

For example:

Urban Dictionary: Gay Ghetto


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I think you'll find that these days it's in common usage as an area which is inhabited by an ethnic or other minority group, segregated from the majority, voluntarily or otherwise.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Urban Dictionary: Gay Ghetto



I've always thought and indeed used the word "Ghetto" to depict a slum, deprived area of some sort - in fact when I read the title of this thread I was expecting to see/hear of such

Jo xxx


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

There was once a time when I thought I lived in a ghetto; but then I woke up and Elvis was on the radio...


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

elenetxu said:


> My OH's family owns a house in San Fulgencio, in the "upper" part. I'm not sure why Pazcat says it's surreal reading the article. I think it's pretty spot on.
> 
> I was not impressed with the town. OH hates it. I was shocked at the debauchery from middle aged (or older) vacationers/locals (I'm not sure) that I saw while I was there. I've got a number of stories about drunk driving in the town and OH will forever have a scar on his forehead from a drunk and coked-up Dane who darn near killed him.
> 
> Of course, not all the 9,862 residents worship Bacchus. However, at night I felt as if I were in a university town. Except, the "students" were fifty or older.


Hi - the references to political corruption were dispiriting..!

I was heartened to note that the foreign residents are attending to the needs of 50 abandoned dogs! I wonder what the fate of these animals might have been, had those 'guiris' not have settled in that town..? It seems that the majority of the animal protection groups and refuges in Southern Spain are the results of initiatives by foreigners - thank goodness for their efforts to stem the misery of the animals concerned!

Saludos,
GC


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - the references to political corruption were dispiriting..!
> 
> I was heartened to note that the foreign residents are attending to the needs of 50 abandoned dogs! I wonder what the fate of these animals might have been, had those 'guiris' not have settled in that town..? It seems that the majority of the animal protection groups and refuges in Southern Spain are the results of initiatives by foreigners - thank goodness for their efforts to stem the misery of the animals concerned!
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, political corruption seems omnipresent right now. 

Regarding animal rescue, I'm sure it seems as if the guiris down south are the ones taking care of animal rescue. However, I'd like to assure you that here in the "land of locals", there are a number of animal rescue organizations. I have ASPACAN bookmarked for when OH finally agrees that we need a pup for our little family!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A couple of points: our animal rescue organisation has many Spanish volunteers and supporters and Estepona now has a Spanish group dedicated to disseminating information about care and training of dogs. The Marbella and Estepona Aytos are both very supportive both morally and financially.

The term 'ghetto' is nearly always used in a negative sense, to express disapproval on the part of the user. A ghetto is never a 'nice' place. I have yet to hear a gay person use the term to define agay area of a city. No- one speaks of 'Manchester or Soho's ' gay ghetto'. The term used by gays and in commercial advertising would be 'gay quarter'. The Urban Dictionary is American and not an authoritative work of reference.

Traduitionally, a ghetto is a place of confinement, of fear. It is not a place one chooses to enter. As far as I'm aware, those Brits have chosen to live as they do just like the rest of us in our own chosen ways.

Incidentally, you can find in the major towns and cities of the UK British citizens who can't speak aword of English. I knew several elderly Poles who lived exclusively within London's large Polish community, with its shops, churches andcommunity centres and ofcourse there's the large Asian communities in the Northern cities where many older folk, especially women, speak no English.

In the UK we call this 'multi- culturalism'.......


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> *Lynn* R;5094417
> Sure, the residents of places like this can live their lives however they like, provided they obey Spanish laws and pay their taxes.


I would have thought they could, yes, as long as there's no harm being done to others and the environment and I'm not so sure about that.



mrypg9 said:


> I would hate it. But lots of older people prefer being with their own kind. Nothing racist about it, just a human preference.


Why did you mention racism? It wasn't mentioned in the article nor in the posts in this thread. 


mrypg9 said:


> The term 'ghetto' is nearly always used in a negative sense, to express disapproval on the part of the user. A ghetto is never a 'nice' place. I have yet to hear a gay person use the term to define agay area of a city. No- one speaks of 'Manchester or Soho's ' gay ghetto'. The term used by gays and in commercial advertising would be 'gay quarter'. The Urban Dictionary is American and not an authoritative work of reference.
> 
> Traduitionally, a ghetto is a place of confinement, of fear. It is not a place one chooses to enter. As far as I'm aware, those Brits have chosen to live as they do just like the rest of us in our own chosen ways.


My own take is that the journalist chose this word very carefully.Here we have a large number of Brits living in a foreign country, all grouped together and with no interest what so ever of intergrating, and interested in maintaining their own culture and language.
Probably a large number of these very people would describe this as a ghetto in the uk. As people have said, traditionally ghetto is a negative word, but it's often misused to mean an area where immigrants live.
The urban dictionary may be American (I don't know), and British English is greatly influenced by American English. It is indeed a recognised, although not official, work of reference.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I would have thought they could, yes, as long as there's no harm being done to others and the environment and I'm not so sure about that.
> 
> 
> Why did you mention racism? It wasn't mentioned in the article nor in the posts in this thread.
> ...


The piece did not use the word 'ghetto' once. I can't find it...did I miss it?

I used the word 'racist' because some people in the UK express negative racist views about non-indigenous ethnicgroups living in certain areas.

I'm reliably informed by gay friends that theterm used would be 'gay village'. I'm not sure that I would use theword 'ghetto' in in any other than its original, negative sense, to describe asad place of forced confinement.
So I would refer to Asian communities rather than Asian ghettos when referring to areas of Asian settlement in the UK. 
Sounds politer, don't you think?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Funny how nobody currently posting here has expressed a wish to live in a place like this although there are literally thousands of us living there. I recognise that the people living in San Fulgencio must be very happy with their lot and the population is growing according to the article. I think if it wasn't for places like this which allow British people to carry on living a British life in a foreign land many people just wouldn't make the move; they wouldn't be able to.
In times gone by it was the rich British family that lived this life style; now you don't have to be rich to live abroad, in fact for some it's better economics to live here than there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The piece did not use the word 'ghetto' once. I can't find it...did I miss it?
> 
> Other than in the title, I don't think so, which was what you were referring to in your earlier post I imagine
> 
> ...


Personally I don't think I would ever use the word ghetto because it's very easy to use wrongly, but it will be used and I think that's what's being talked about here - how *other* people outside the group use it , not necessarily gays, immigrants, ethnic groups etc.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Funny how nobody currently posting here has expressed a wish to live in a place like this although there are literally thousands of us living there. I recognise that the people living in San Fulgencio must be very happy with their lot and the population is growing according to the article. I think if it wasn't for places like this which allow British people to carry on living a British life in a foreign land many people just wouldn't make the move; they wouldn't be able to.
> In times gone by it was the rich British family that lived this life style; now you don't have to be rich to live abroad, in fact for some it's better economics to live here than there.


I think it's because most of us who post here are more 'cosmopolitan' in outlook, have travelled more widely and look for different things when we move abroad to live.
If my mum had come here, she would have loved the 'Spanishness' of Spain but would have found it difficult to learn Spanish as she left school at fourteen and was deaf. So she would have felt more comfortable in a more familiar, English environment. 

I'm not implying that you have to be educted, sophisticated etc. to prefer more Spanish environments. My son and dil have owned property in Spain for over fifteen years and are educated professionals and extremely well travelled. They visit their house frequently but neither speaks a word of Spanish. They prefer international places like Marbella and go to international bars and restaurants. For them, Spain is a place to unwind, to relax in the sun, for my son to play golf. I think they should make theeffort to learn at least rudimentary Spanish but they see no need to do so.
Spain is big enough both geographically and emotionally to accommodate all of us,


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Personally I don't think I would ever use the word ghetto because it's very easy to use wrongly, but it will be used and I think that's what's being talked about here - how *other* people outside the group use it , not necessarily gays, immigrants, ethnic groups etc.


I used the word racism becáuse it conveyed what I wanted to say. It hadno direct reference to any other post.

I think you have said exactly why the word ghetto is inappropriate in this and most other contexts.

But I looked again and can't find the word used once in the article which seems on the wholeto be upbeat about the place.
Themain concern seems to be about lack of integration although that doesn't seem to cause any real problems. 
People choose whether to integrate or not. If I lived in that town I doubt I'd integrate with anybody. Never mind the inhabitants, like many townsthe world over that have been developed in the last sixty years, it sounds horrible.
But that's my taste.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Personally I don't think I would ever use the word ghetto because it's very easy to use wrongly, but it will be used and I think that's what's being talked about here - how *other* people outside the group use it , not necessarily gays, immigrants, ethnic groups etc.


I used the word racism becáuse it conveyed what I wanted to say. It had no direct reference to any other post.

I think you have said exactly why the word ghetto is inappropriate in this and most other contexts.

But I looked again and can't find the word used once in the article which seems on the wholeto be upbeat about the place.
Themain concern seems to be about lack of integration although that doesn't seem to cause any real problems. 
People choose whether to integrate or not. If I lived in that town I doubt I'd integrate with anybody. Never mind the inhabitants, like many towns the world over that have been developed in the last sixty years, it sounds horrible.
But that's my taste.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A report in El País about a group of Spanish right- wing ultras setting up a foreigner- free zone in Madrid...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> A report in El País about a group of Spanish right- wing ultras setting up a foreigner- free zone in Madrid...


Do you have a link?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

A PS to elenetxu,
There are some lovely places in the south of Spain too. It is not all built up urban sprawls with a population of foreigners who have little interest in the country they reside in.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Do you have a link?


I've just been watching a discussion about this on Espejo Público on A3


here's a link to el mundo La casa 'okupa' neonazi de Tetu?n amanece incendiada y con pintadas | Madrid | EL MUNDO


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I've just been watching a discussion about this on Espejo Público on A3
> 
> 
> here's a link to el mundo La casa 'okupa' neonazi de Tetu?n amanece incendiada y con pintadas | Madrid | EL MUNDO


Interestingly, the squatters are called neo nazis (I think by people in the area and the media). They have named the building


> Hogar Social Ramiro Ledesma, un líder fascista que fue fusilado al comienzo de la Guerra Civil,


Yet, we have this quote from them



> Desde la casa _okupa _se desvinculan de estas acciones delictivas y aseguran que no son neonazis,* «somos sólo patriotas»*,


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A PS to elenetxu,
> There are some lovely places in the south of Spain too. It is not all built up urban sprawls with a population of foreigners who have little interest in the country they reside in.


I guess my lack of love for the south is pretty obvious, isn't it?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interestingly, the squatters are called neo nazis (I think by people in the area and the media). They have named the building
> Yet, we have this quote from them


I "love" how on the Espada 2000 propaganda posters the wife and kids are blonde. What are they, Galician? Haven't see too many pale blonde Spaniards, yet the poster focuses on "Spanish first."

*grumble* some people.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Funny how nobody currently posting here has expressed a wish to live in a place like this although there are literally thousands of us living there. I recognise that the people living in San Fulgencio must be very happy with their lot and the population is growing according to the article. I think if it wasn't for places like this which allow British people to carry on living a British life in a foreign land many people just wouldn't make the move; they wouldn't be able to.
> In times gone by it was the rich British family that lived this life style; now you don't have to be rich to live abroad, in fact for some it's better economics to live here than there.


Well not being British or of retirement age may have something to do with it for me but you have got me thinking so I did a bit of digging. The town in which we live now claims to have a 12%ish(sure I have seen a claim of 30% elsewhere) foreign population and most certainly the majority of those live in the surrounding Urbs where we are but the only interaction with my neighbours have all been Spanish. It's rather a dull area if I'm honest but it is nice, mainly families it would seem.

Now there is a town a few km's away that we have just made an offer on a house and pending lawyer checks we may move too(not holding our breathe on that one though). The town hall's website claims a foreign population of 94% although that I think is padron based, other data claims it to be at 50%.

We certainly didn't choose the area because of that though, it is simply a lovely area with real detached houses on good plots of land. And this is the crux of why I wouldn't want to live in that area mentioned in the article, it is simply the style of housing available not who the neighbours are because I'm a miserable sod and would rather keep to myself anyway.
Sure, I can see the attraction to it if that is your thing but it's not our thing which is a shame as it rules out the whole southern side of Alicante's coast.

The economics of it, for now certainly makes sense to us as well.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Do you have a link?


I know that I have been shown how to do this at least once but I tried without success.
I'm useless at IT, I come from the era of chalk and fountain pens.
Could you please tell me how again....thanks

Ah, you've found it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I know that I have been shown how to do this at least once but I tried without success.
> I'm useless at IT, I come from the era of chalk and fountain pens.
> Could you please tell me how again....thanks


step one - highlight the url of the site you wish to link to (1st pic)

step 2 - click the







at the top of the reply box 

step 3 - paste the url into the little box which appears & click 'OK' (2nd pic)

step 4 - copy & these instructions down


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> step one - highlight the url of the site you wish to link to (1st pic)
> 
> step 2 - click the
> 
> ...


Have just done so.
Thankyou for your patience...'twas you who showed me before.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Have just done so.
> Thankyou for your patience...'twas you who showed me before.


If you forget, just copy and paste the url on to your post. Then others who are interested just copy and paste the url themselves


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interestingly, the squatters are called neo nazis (I think by people in the area and the media). They have named the building
> Yet, we have this quote from them


There is a small but active group of young Falangists in Estepona. Their main activity is graffiti directed at Moroccans and Eastern Europeans. Guiris are seemingly exempt.
A couple of months back they stuck posters and sprayed slogans on the walls and windows of a local union sede. They threw potatoes (why potatoes?) and shouted abuse. The police came and sorted them out and they have to face charges of using insulting words and aggression, or some similar charge.
They are homophobic so we ArcoIris gang are taking care.
I'm easily provoked and if I had been there I just know I would have retaliated.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

For the record, the thread title is mine. The journalist didn't use the word ghetto.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> For the record, the thread title is mine. The journalist didn't use the word ghetto.


Thanks for making that clear. I read through the piece three times trying to find the word!

I'm currently awaiting an eye op and find it almost impossible to read other than via my IPad Mini with the text very much enlarged. That makes it easy to miss words. It is very frustrating.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for making that clear. I read through the piece three times trying to find the word!
> 
> I'm currently awaiting an eye op and find it almost impossible to read other than via my IPad Mini with the text very much enlarged. That makes it easy to miss words. It is very frustrating.


Don't you have an equivalent to Ctrl+F on an iPad? Just type a word and it will search the text for it?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Don't you have an equivalent to Ctrl+F on an iPad? Just type a word and it will search the text for it?


Not that I'm aware of. But I'm sure there is a way of doing that but I have no idea how.
Can you find a specific word by using Ctrl and F on Windows?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Not that I'm aware of. But I'm sure there is a way of doing that but I have no idea how.
> Can you find a specific word by using Ctrl and F on Windows?


Yes, it works on everything - documents, web pages, emails etc.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, it works on everything - documents, web pages, emails etc.


I have learnt two new things today


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

When you are internet, just go to editar (edit in English??) and click on Buscar (search/ find or similar in English) A window opens (at the bottom of the page on my screen) and you type in the word you want to look for.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> When you are internet, just go to editar (edit in English??) and click on Buscar (search/ find or similar in English) A window opens (at the bottom of the page on my screen) and you type in the word you want to look for.


Can't do it on IPad but am now going to experiment on laptop. Once you have brought up a page on IPad your keypad disappears.
But the more IT savvy may know how to do these things. Sandra seems to have mastered the device but doesn't like showing me how to do things as it often leads to arguments.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Can't do it on IPad but am now going to experiment on laptop. Once you have brought up a page on IPad your keypad disappears.
> But the more IT savvy may know how to do these things. Sandra seems to have mastered the device but doesn't like showing me how to do things as it often leads to arguments.


You can increase the size of text by going into settings


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> My OH's family owns a house in San Fulgencio, in the "upper" part. I'm not sure why Pazcat says it's surreal reading the article. I think it's pretty spot on.
> 
> I was not impressed with the town. OH hates it. I was shocked at the debauchery from middle aged (or older) vacationers/locals (I'm not sure) that I saw while I was there. I've got a number of stories about drunk driving in the town and OH will forever have a scar on his forehead from a drunk and coked-up Dane who darn near killed him.
> 
> Of course, not all the 9,862 residents worship Bacchus. However, at night I felt as if I were in a university town. Except, the "students" were fifty or older.


I'm curious as to what the home owners (your in-laws?) think of the town. Do they feel the same way you do? Would they sell if they could? When and why did they buy there?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> You can increase the size of text by going into settings


Both IPad and laptop have touchscreens -which I don't really like as I tend to use my IPad or laptop whilst munching on something and leave sticky fingers on the screens. But you can enlarge the text by simple moving your fingers across the screen in both IoS and Windows platforms which is at the moment a godsend for me.

I do not recommend the ageing process...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I do not recommend the ageing process...


Tell me about it!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Brangus said:


> I'm curious as to what the home owners (your in-laws?) think of the town. Do they feel the same way you do? Would they sell if they could? When and why did they buy there?


I had a long chat with OH about this over lunch today. His parents bought right when the urb. was being built. OH said this was back in the 80s. Their neighborhood was primarily Spanish, but things changed as time went on. They bought there because it was dirt cheap and it was on the coast. They looked on the Basque coast, but preferred the Mediterranean. 

My ILs _do_ complain that there are a lot of places they simply won't go to because the proprietors/staff don't speak Spanish. However, apart from bit of whinging they seem to be pretty happy with life down there. They spend a lot of time in Alicante or Elche. 

OH made an interesting comment. He said that it seems like they come to the region and not just refuse to integrate, but they become more patriotic.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> OH made an interesting comment. He said that it seems like they come to the region and not just refuse to integrate, but they become more patriotic.


That's quite common though, with ethnic minority immigrant communities. The customs and rituals of the old country help them keep their identity and maintain a close social group. Look at St Patrick's Day, which is a much bigger event in New York or Boston than it is in Dublin or Cork.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

His comment was more about "the British still thinking they're the bosses" (seeing themselves as superior) than shared customs and rituals. I should have clarified that in the other post, I'm sorry. 

Before anyone gets offended, this is related to _his_ experience with _some_ Brits in Alicante province.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> That's quite common though, with ethnic minority immigrant communities. The customs and rituals of the old country help them keep their identity and maintain a close social group. *Look at St Patrick's Day, which is a much bigger event in New York or Boston than it is in Dublin or Cork.*


Given my experience, the popularity of St. Patty's Day is due to the fact that, on that day, it's socially acceptable to really let your hair down and party.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Given my experience, the popularity of St. Patty's Day is due to the fact that, on that day, it's socially acceptable to really let your hair down and party.


As it is in Ireland, but it's still a much bigger event in the US than in Ireland


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> OH made an interesting comment. He said that it seems like they come to the region and not just refuse to integrate, but they become more patriotic.


I'm not so sure it's a refusal to intergrate.
I think a lot can't intergrate because they don't have the skills necessary; adaptability, language, ability to change mindset...
Others have no interest in doing so, but it's not a refusal as such


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not so sure it's a refusal to intergrate.
> I think a lot can't intergrate because they don't have the skills necessary; adaptability, language, ability to change mindset...
> Others have no interest in doing so, but it's not a refusal as such



You make a very good point. However, are people truly not capable of adapting? I find that fascinating.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> You make a very good point. However, are people truly not capable of adapting? I find that fascinating.


Maybe they just don't want to?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> You make a very good point. However, are people truly not capable of adapting?


Definitely


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe they just don't want to?



I asked whether people are truly not *capable* of adapting. I am fully aware that some don't want to adapt.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Definitely


This just doesn't compute for me. :twitch:


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I do not recommend the ageing process...


What do you suggest as an alternative?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've just read that piece again for the fourth time and it seems that in spite of the lack of 'integration' the town seems to be a contented place with a good community spirit, in spite of its alleged lack of physical appeal. The two communities mingle happily at fiestas, we are told, and there is no tension between them.
There are only two things worthy of note: the sheer number of 'outsiders' and their failure to 'integrate'. Lack of linguistic competence seems the main reason.
I'm never really sure what it means to be 'integrated'. As I see it, it means obeying local laws, being nice to your neighbours, fitting in with local customs, stuff like that. That can be done a lot easier if you take the trouble to learn the language, true.
From that report I'd say the Brits are in one sense perfectly integrated in that they co- exist with their Spanish neighbours, are involved in local politics and seem very happy with their life in their chosen country.
Some people come to live in Spain because the sun shines here more than in the UK and after working for forty years that prospect is very appealing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

elenetxu said:


> I asked whether people are truly not *capable* of adapting. I am fully aware that some don't want to adapt.


If I understood more clearly what is actually involved. In 'adapting' it might be easier to ponder that.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I've just read that piece again for the fourth time and it seems that in spite of the lack of 'integration' the town seems to be a contented place with a good community spirit, in spite of its alleged lack of physical appeal. The two communities mingle happily at fiestas, we are told, and there is no tension between them.
> There are only two things worthy of note: the sheer number of 'outsiders' and their failure to 'integrate'. Lack of linguistic competence seems the main reason.
> I'm never really sure what it means to be 'integrated'. As I see it, it means obeying local laws, being nice to your neighbours, fitting in with local customs, stuff like that. That can be done a lot easier if you take the trouble to learn the language, true.
> From that report I'd say the Brits are in one sense perfectly integrated in that they co- exist with their Spanish neighbours, are involved in local politics and seem very happy with their life in their chosen country.
> Some people come to live in Spain because the sun shines here more than in the UK and after working for forty years that prospect is very appealing.


I've never understood the integration thing. Humans like to be able to communicate and to be with others from a similar background - I think it would be great. No one has to worry about the language, no one has to worry about being a foreigner and they all get on with each other and the Spanish - sounds great to me! They're not bothering anyone are they

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I've just read that piece again for the fourth time and it seems that in spite of the lack of 'integration' the town seems to be a contented place with a good community spirit, in spite of its alleged lack of physical appeal. The two communities mingle happily at fiestas, we are told, and there is no tension between them.
> There are only two things worthy of note: the sheer number of 'outsiders' and their failure to 'integrate'. Lack of linguistic competence seems the main reason.
> I'm never really sure what it means to be 'integrated'. As I see it, it means obeying local laws, being nice to your neighbours, *fitting in with local customs*, stuff like that. That can be done a lot easier if you take the trouble to learn the language, true.
> From that report I'd say the Brits are in one sense perfectly integrated in that they co- exist with their Spanish neighbours, are involved in local politics and seem very happy with their life in their chosen country.
> Some people come to live in Spain because the sun shines here more than in the UK and after working for forty years that prospect is very appealing.


Intergration to me means acquiring a certain (how much??) understanding of your surroundings, the local population and their customs and changing (= adapting) some (how many??) of your habits in order to fit in with all of this and/ or not complaining because things are not like they were in the UK. 
I'm speaking in general terms of course. Of course people are going to compare with what they have always known, but there's no use getting miserable about the Corté Inglés not opening until 10:00/ about the post coming twice a week/ the tea being awful/ the roundabouts 'cos that's life in Spain.
One of the most important ideas for people to grasp I think, thinking about other conversations we've had on the forum, is that the language is vital and if you don't speak it, and speak it to a high standard, your knowledge of Spain and the Spanish is going to be limited. I do understand that for many a good level of Spanish is just not obtainable, but it should then be understood by those people that their interpretation of events, customs, attitudes, systems, procedures... may be off centre.
Oh and PS, there was something about in politics there had been some disagreements, wasn't there?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> This just doesn't compute for me. :twitch:


Is this is strange concept?
I thought it was quite straightforward!
I thought adapting was changing.
Some people don't want to change what they do - the time they eat, the way they pay their bills, the food they eat, the time they go shopping, the taste of the water, how much they pay for electricity, the furnishings they have, the shoes that they buy, what to watch on tv,
and a long etc


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> You make a very good point. However, are people truly not capable of adapting? I find that fascinating.


I think there is a certain mindset amongst some older British people that anything foreign is a bit suspect. Even when mass tourism kicked off in Spain, in the 60s and 70s, we were bombarded with horror stories about the water not being fit to drink, food being off, garlic giving you bad breath, dodgy characters waiting for an opportunity to rip you off, etc etc. Even today, some of the tabloid press is openly xenophobic.

These ideas still prevail amongst some of the Brits who have retired to Spain. They like what they know and are familiar with; they don't want to take risks. So they stick together in their ghettos, and are happier that way.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Intergration to me means acquiring a certain (how much??) understanding of your surroundings, the local population and their customs and changing (= adapting) some (how many??) of your habits in order to fit in with all of this and/ or not complaining because things are not like they were in the UK.
> I'm speaking in general terms of course. Of course people are going to compare with what they have always known, but there's no use getting miserable about the Corté Inglés not opening until 10:00/ about the post coming twice a week/ the tea being awful/ the roundabouts 'cos that's life in Spain.
> One of the most important ideas for people to grasp I think, thinking about other conversations we've had on the forum, is that the language is vital and if you don't speak it, and speak it to a high standard, your knowledge of Spain and the Spanish is going to be limited. I do understand that for many a good level of Spanish is just not obtainable, but it should then be understood by those people that their interpretation of events, customs, attitudes, systems, procedures... may be off centre.
> Oh and PS, there was something about in politics there had been some disagreements, wasn't there?


Politics and disagreements are inseparable but I don't recall reading that the differences were based on nationalities.
I was thinking about how my life has changed in the past six years in Spain and it hasn't all that much.
The big difference is that I speak the language, fluently but ungrammatically. We eat at different times,eat more or less the same things as we weren't into roast beef and Yorkshire type food in the UK. We have a relaxed laid- back lifestyle but that's to do with not having to work. I was involved in politics and activist groups in the UK and do the same here with Spanish groups. I'm going to my first meeting of our local WI type group next month. I wear shorts and a straw hat summer which I wouldn't do in the UK.
As you say, learning the language is key to most things. I suppose I could have found local English volunteer groups to join but I prefer the Spanish ones as they're more connected to local life, obviously.
I know an elderly couple, he British, she Dutch, in their eighties. They've been here for thirty years, speak very little if any Spanish, live in an almost totally Spanish apartment block. Last year he got a award from the Mayor for his work for the Foreign Residents Association.
They are well- known and very much respected by all nationalities, and I would describe them as well integrated although both are very British in outlook and habits.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Politics and disagreements are inseparable but I don't recall reading that the differences were based on nationalities.
> I was thinking about how my life has changed in the past six years in Spain and it hasn't all that much.
> The big difference is that I speak the language, fluently but ungrammatically. We eat at different times,eat more or less the same things as we weren't into roast beef and Yorkshire type food in the UK. We have a relaxed laid- back lifestyle but that's to do with not having to work. I was involved in politics and activist groups in the UK and do the same here with Spanish groups. I'm going to my first meeting of our local WI type group next month. I wear shorts and a straw hat summer which I wouldn't do in the UK.
> As you say, learning the language is key to most things. I suppose I could have found local English volunteer groups to join but I prefer the Spanish ones as they're more connected to local life, obviously.
> ...


Well there you go.
Different ideas about the same thing.
From what you've said here that's not what I would call intergration.
Happy with their lives? It seems so.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is this is strange concept?
> I thought it was quite straightforward!
> I thought adapting was changing.
> Some people don't want to change what they do - the time they eat, the way they pay their bills, the food they eat, the time they go shopping, the taste of the water, how much they pay for electricity, the furnishings they have, the shoes that they buy, what to watch on tv,
> and a long etc


Again, my question was whether some people are truly not *capable* of adapting. If I'm not mistaken, all animals can adapt.

"Want" is a whole different story. I know the answer to that question.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Again, my question was whether some people are truly not *capable* of adapting. If I'm not mistaken, all animals can adapt.
> 
> "Want" is a whole different story. I know the answer to that question.


You can substitute all the wants in my posts for can'ts. For some people it's the same difference and that's what I was trying to say, although I didn't quite get there.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well there you go.
> Different ideas about the same thing.
> From what you've said here that's not what I would call intergration.
> Happy with their lives? It seems so.


Oh yes, they are very happy and lead a full life with friends from many different nationalities. Their Spanish friends speak English with them.
It's being happy that matters, though, isn't it...I'm a very happy Brit in Spain but I think we've been very lucky in finding a place to live which suits us perfectly. 
We have lovely neighbours, Spanish on both sides with a very friendly German family who've been here for years one house away, live in a quiet village but a short drive from town and we have friends of many different nationalities. I do not know if I am integrated and I don't really care either way.
I wouldn't like to live in a town with a lot of other Brits because I enjoy the 'difference' of Spain. We left the UK for a change of scenery and more.
But I don't like the tendency to criticise or look down on Brits, Germans or anyone who wants to live in a Little England/ Germany in Spain. These are communities, not 'ghettos' and although In my opinion they miss out on many rewarding experiences by being culturally exclusive it's their choice, they enjoy life and what you don't know you don't miss.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I, too, am in a village and very happy. We have friends/acquaintances (mostly Spanish). The Expats/Immigrants that I deplore are those who carry on as though they were still in UK - they can't hold their liquor, get drunk, pick fights, throw up and generally behave badly. While I accept that it is not easy for many to learn a foreign language, it is just common courtesy to reply either "Hola" or "Adiós" when somebody says "Hola", not just walk away.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes, they are very happy and lead a full life with friends from many different nationalities. Their Spanish friends speak English with them.
> It's being happy that matters, though, isn't it...I'm a very happy Brit in Spain but I think we've been very lucky in finding a place to live which suits us perfectly.
> We have lovely neighbours, Spanish on both sides with a very friendly German family who've been here for years one house away, live in a quiet village but a short drive from town and we have friends of many different nationalities. I do not know if I am integrated and I don't really care either way.
> I wouldn't like to live in a town with a lot of other Brits because I enjoy the 'difference' of Spain. We left the UK for a change of scenery and more.
> But I don't like the tendency to criticise or look down on Brits, Germans or anyone who wants to live in a Little England/ Germany in Spain. These are communities, not 'ghettos' and although In my opinion they miss out on many rewarding experiences by being culturally exclusive it's their choice, they enjoy life and what you don't know you don't miss.


Being happy, whatever that is, is certainly top priority for most of us 
I don't actually bregrudge anyone their bit of happiness and the few people I have met living in similar circumstances to those described in the article have been really happy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Being happy, whatever that is, is certainly top priority for most of us
> I don't actually bregrudge anyone their bit of happiness and the few people I have met living in similar circumstances to those described in the article have been really happy.


I remember one of myfirst posts, way back in 2009, was about the absence of vulgar or coarse language used here, unlike the UK where every other word you hear is 
****. 
You gently suggested that I had perhaps as yet not achieved much fluency in spoken, heard Spanish.
How right you were! Breakfasting on the terrace I hear the mellifluous tones of my neighbour, retired trucker Juan. Words such as ****, joder, ****, float over the Dama de Noche.
I actually now think Spaniards are as foul- mouthed as Brits.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I remember one of myfirst posts, way back in 2009, was about the absence of vulgar or coarse language used here, unlike the UK where every other word you hear is
> ****.
> You gently suggested that I had perhaps as yet not achieved much fluency in spoken, heard Spanish.
> How right you were! Breakfasting on the terrace I hear the mellifluous tones of my neighbour, retired trucker Juan. Words such as ****, joder, ****, float over the Dama de Noche.
> I actually now think Spaniards are as foul- mouthed as Brits.


perhaps worse - although perhaps not in that the words themselves don't seem to have the same connotations

you hear little kids & their grandmas using the 'c' word in front of each other & you hear just about everything on daytime TV as well - not to mention full frontal nakedness with no blurry bits ........

I do sometimes wonder if the connotations aren't there because everyone uses the words, or vice versa

I've never been one for swearing in English - but I do in Spanish

I HATE hearing my kids swear in English too


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

coincidentally - next door's grandchildren have just arrived to play in the garden - they're under 10

so far I've heard c***, j****, p***

from the kids - & grandma is saying absolutely nothing to stop them...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> coincidentally - next door's grandchildren have just arrived to play in the garden - they're under 10
> 
> so far I've heard c***, j****, p***
> 
> from the kids - & grandma is saying absolutely nothing to stop them...


English or Spanish?:confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> English or Spanish?:confused2:


Spanish 

even in Jávea I have managed to not have any English neighbours!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> Spanish
> 
> even in Jávea I have managed to not have any English neighbours!!


That must earn you at least a hundred brownie points!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> perhaps worse - although perhaps not in that the words themselves don't seem to have the same connotations
> 
> you hear little kids & their grandmas using the 'c' word in front of each other & you hear just about everything on daytime TV as well - not to mention full frontal nakedness with no blurry bits ........
> 
> ...


I popped in to next door once and was having a coffee in the kitchen, tv on in the background...I looked across at the screen and there before nine o'clock were three - note three!! - people going at it like knives. Pure porn.I didn't know where to look but everyone else ignored this frantic sexual activity going on next to the microwave, including my friend's ninety-something mother...

I vaguely remembered reading something about Spain's relaxed attitude post-Franco to all things sexual but being a bit of an Anglo-Saxon prude I was a bit taken aback...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> That must earn you at least a hundred brownie points!!


it's not _that _difficult really 


it's funny actually - both here & in our last place, our new neighbours when we first move in have been a little 'wary' of these Brits moving in 

then they realise we speak Spanish & that's better........ & then they hear my elder daughter with her mates speaking Valenciano..... & they realise that they had better argue more quietly


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> perhaps worse - although perhaps not in that the words themselves don't seem to have the same connotations
> 
> you hear little kids & their grandmas using the 'c' word in front of each other & you hear just about everything on daytime TV as well - not to mention full frontal nakedness with no blurry bits ........
> 
> ...


The nudity doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think the puritanical censorship in my homeland is ridiculous.

Regarding swearing, I swear exponentially more in Spanish than in English.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Another_ El País in English_ article about the Brits in San Fulgencio. This one is about the animal rescue and re-homing charity, Pets In Spain. They are concerned that Cereco SL, the private company paid by the council to round up and dispose of strays, is not doing its job properly, and the council is not following up to check. 

Cereco are supposed to liaise with welfare charities to try and rehome the animals where possible. But the secretary of Pets in Spain, Mark Lewis, believes they are simply taking them to be incinerated at their "collection centre" in Crevillente, without bothering to contact the charities. The more strays they round up, the more money they get from the counciil.

The Pets in Spain Charity >> Trans-Iberian >> Blogs EL PAÍS

If you want to support this charity, by donating or becoming a volunteer, go to their website Pets In Spain | caring for all animals.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> The nudity doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think the puritanical censorship in my homeland is ridiculous.
> 
> Regarding swearing, I swear exponentially more in Spanish than in English.


me too


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> coincidentally - next door's grandchildren have just arrived to play in the garden - they're under 10
> 
> so far I've heard c***, j****, p***
> 
> from the kids - & grandma is saying absolutely nothing to stop them...


Kids round here would get told if they used all three of those words if they were under 10, in practically all families, and by all members of the family!
Later on j***** is just a word and it's certainly true that these swear words, although they can be translated, just do not have the same social taboos and weight that their translations do in the UK.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> The nudity doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I think the puritanical censorship in my homeland is ridiculous.
> 
> Regarding swearing, I swear exponentially more in Spanish than in English.


I don't think it's the nudity that bothers most people. It's what the nude bodies are doing that people may object to, and I do object to a lot of it.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *Kids round here would get told if they used all three of those words if they were under 10, in practically all families, and by all members of the family!*
> Later on j***** is just a word and it's certainly true that these swear words, although they can be translated, just do not have the same social taboos and weight that their translations do in the UK.



On the other hand, I wouldn't blink an eye if someone told me those were one of the first words of some of the children in the fishing villages in this neck of the woods.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think it's the nudity that bothers most people. It's what the nude bodies are doing that people may object to, and I do object to a lot of it.



we watched an episode of (I think ) Cajelleros Viajeros where they were in some snowy northern country - they were having saunas & jumping in the snow afterwards


the Spanish guys didn't have any 'blurry bits' - but the Swedish (or whatever) locals did!!

it was really odd


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