# Divide & Conquer (Exodus)



## MensEtManus

I am curious to hear opinions of what you guys think the Egyptian Christians (copts) will do in the upcoming days, weeks, months... 

Will they flee like what the Egyptians are doing right now from Libya?

Last night I heard a talk show were one of the guest speakers was concerned that Copts' voice was unheard and that they will march to the streets protesting. In my opinion, I haven't seen any copts do anything of the kind, but I think the guest speaker was just trying to promote such behavior. 

I also just read the news right now about : http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/coptic-christians-angered-priests-murder-upper-egypt


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## aykalam

MensEtManus said:


> I am curious to hear opinions of what you guys think the Egyptian Christians (copts) will do in the upcoming days, weeks, months...
> 
> Will they flee like what the Egyptians are doing right now from Libya?
> 
> Last night I heard a talk show were one of the guest speakers was concerned that Copts' voice was unheard and that they will march to the streets protesting. In my opinion, I haven't seen any copts do anything of the kind, but I think the guest speaker was just trying to promote such behavior.
> 
> I also just read the news right now about : http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/news/coptic-christians-angered-priests-murder-upper-egypt


I don't understand, why would they flee now? This has always been their country, before Islam existed. Attacks on Copts have happened through the 30 years Mubarak was in power, so it makes no sense to me that they would want to run now. 

As for protests, Egyptians (not Copts, not Muslims) were protesting every day in Tahrir Sq. If there is one thing those 18 days proved is that the people don't have major issues with each others' faiths, that the system itself has always promoted division. But hopefully this system is on its dying legs now, good riddance to bad rubbish 

This video shows a huge Egyptian flag been flown between a church and the mosque opposite, I believe it was filmed in Alex;


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## Eco-Mariner

Faith is acceptable in all societies.
However it is religion that cause the problems and divisions.

While the country remains in the hands of autocrats there will be those sections of Egypt's society who will use violence in desperation to be heared.

In civilised societies, an autonomous government, given the capacity to make moral decisions and act on them, comes from being elected by all of the public. Those bigots and others not willing to accept different views will become marginalised after an election and dealt with by a proper police and judicial system that a new government puts in place..

Until then a real democratic system is something new to them and a real parliamentary voice and votes would be far better than the gun or by using violence. Peace and Patience is more important now than ever and we all hope that a *Purified *government is the result.


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## DeadGuy

Ok, I am one of the “Copts” that you people are talking about, but I just need to emphasis that I do NOT speak for ANYONE, what I’ll say is my PERSONAL opinion, and whatever you think about my opinion, I respect everyone’s freedom to have their personal opinions 

*@ MensEtManus:*

What anyone will do in the future will depend on many things, and considering the current situation? No one really knows what’s gonna happen concerning any issue, Copts’ issue included.

With all respect to your opinion, but if you “haven’t seen" something does not necessarily mean it’s not happening, the voices of the Copts aren’t heard whether it’s obvious or not, there’s been a demand to include the part of the constitution that states that Egypt is an Islamic country in the current constitution’s changes, no one bothered to answer those demands, and the ones who did answer gave unpleasant answers, also there has been attacks on Christian's properties in the last few days, the current ”authorities” did nothing about it, was a part of some of those attacks actually, so there is a problem in here.

*@ aykalam:*

Why would they flee now? What would you do when your “money” is considered “ok” to be taken, your family considered “ok” to be raped, and your life’s being someone’s target for one reason or another while there’s NOTHING you can do to protect yourself?! The attacks only went public in Mubarak’s time, but they always existed, long time before that.

Why would they run now? Jews lived in Egypt once, why did they leave when they did?!

The kinda people who were in Tahrir Sq. are NOT the majority of people, those people are educated, civil, and they had specific demands, the country’s “identity” or “religion” was not one of the things they had in mind, you can not compare the kinda people who were in there to the rest of the Egyptian people.

Yes the system promoted division, but what they didn’t have in mind that it will turn to be a deep belief in people’s minds, it simply went out of their control (Or anyone's control if you want my personal opinion about it).

*@ Eco-Mariner:*

_“Faith is acceptable in all societies. However it is religion that cause the problems and divisions.”_ Totally agree, but tell me how you’d make people understand that :s

_“Those bigots and others not willing to accept different views will become marginalised after an election and dealt with by a proper police and judicial system that a new government puts in place”_ That’s assuming that the next elections will be democratic, fair, AND, that it will produce a president that actually wants this to happen, however and considering the current situation? Does it look like it’s gonna happen this way? With the current direction to make any citizen who’s got an Egyptian ID a legal voters, trust me it doesn’t look good, +80% of the population would make the wrong choice simply cause they don’t know better, they were just programmed on something specific! Said it before and saying it again, you talk to someone about education and economy and how important is it to enhance those, and all you get is how important it is to have an “Islamic state”! So trust me, it does not look good, at all!

Also what was said by the American FM today does make it look worse, looks like America “accepts” MB to be ruling Egypt somehow now, I wonder if they said that cause they don’t wanna become enemies to the “next” government 

Now my personal opinion about this, yes there are lots of problems facing Copts in Egypt, and NO, it doesn’t look like what’s coming is gonna be better concerning the Copts’ issues, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for “fleeing” now, I would send my own family somewhere else if I could, but I am hoping that I’m wrong about all this, and hoping that none of this is gonna happen and that it will turn to be better really soon, not just concerning Copts, but concerning the whole country!


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> *@ aykalam:*
> 
> Why would they flee now? What would you do when your “money” is considered “ok” to be taken, your family considered “ok” to be raped, and your life’s being someone’s target for one reason or another while there’s NOTHING you can do to protect yourself?! The attacks only went public in Mubarak’s time, but they always existed, long time before that.
> 
> Why would they run now? Jews lived in Egypt once, why did they leave when they did?!


I understand what you are saying, the point I was trying to make is: this has been going on for many years so, unless there is an increase in the level/number of attacks, what would prompt the community to flee now and not earlier. 

Whether people would like to leave Egypt depends of course on many factors and at the moment there is just too much uncertainty for anyone to predict what will happen and what reactions there will be on the ground. Whether the MB come to power or not is one of those unknowns.

Yes, there are many issues to deal with, but changes don't happen as quickly as we would perhaps like to see. That's the nature of the game, and even if free and fair elections do take place, there will be many dangers on the way to democracy. Take a look at the Spanish transition, failed military coup in 1981 was close to destroying what had so far been achieved, and that was 6 years after Franco's death


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> I understand what you are saying, the point I was trying to make is: this has been going on for many years so, unless there is an increase in the level/number of attacks, what would prompt the community to flee now and not earlier.
> 
> Whether people would like to leave Egypt depends of course on many factors and at the moment there is just too much uncertainty for anyone to predict what will happen and what reactions there will be on the ground. Whether the MB come to power or not is one of those unknowns.
> 
> Yes, there are many issues to deal with, but changes don't happen as quickly as we would perhaps like to see. That's the nature of the game, and even if free and fair elections do take place, there will be many dangers on the way to democracy. Take a look at the Spanish transition, failed military coup in 1981 was close to destroying what had so far been achieved, and that was 6 years after Franco's death



Well there is an increasing level of hostility in the streets I can assure you that, but it’s kept to the hostility level only for now (I know! Like being hostile is good enough! But what can I say?!), besides, Copts are being "processed" in a way now, who owns what, who's got more money, who's got a bigger house and so on! So my guess? They don’t wanna give anyone a good reason to question how Copts would be treated under the MB ruling for now, that's why it's just kept "low profile"......

Things don’t change over a night I do know that, but there are “signs” that can’t be ignored, and the current signs?! Doesn’t look like any changes are gonna be on the right direction in here, Copts’ loyalty to the country is questioned when they make any demands, Copts’ “mistakes” for protecting themselves after police withdrawal faced with fatal attacks by the military? The focus on “politics” and ignoring education, economy and so on? The way I see it?! Unless there's a dramatic change on the course?! A disaster is coming soon


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## Eco-Mariner

*On this sincere note*



DeadGuy said:


> Ok, I am one of the “Copts” that you people are talking about, but I just need to emphasis that I do NOT speak for ANYONE, what I’ll say is my PERSONAL opinion, and whatever you think about my opinion, I respect everyone’s freedom to have their personal opinions.
> 
> Now my personal opinion about this, yes there are lots of problems facing Copts in Egypt, and NO, it doesn’t look like what’s coming is gonna be better concerning the Copts’ issues, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for “fleeing” now, I would send my own family somewhere else if I could, but I am hoping that I’m wrong about all this, and hoping that none of this is gonna happen and that it will turn to be better really soon, not just concerning Copts, but concerning the whole country!


I must say, from reading your honest and personal opinions, I believe if the voters of each possible party have the calibre you seem to possess and the literacy you are portraying, there is a bright future for democracy in Egypt.

I sense you are scared of your options. I think you may be mesmerised by the veil of fear that has been taken from your eyes and don't know what to do about your new found freedom.

You need to go out there and convey your elation to those around you. Help create the platform for your needs and requirements of the new parliament by talking and debating with others of similar views. Stand as a member of your constituency for election even.... Have faith. Time is on your side. 

What you shouldn't do is allow others you may regret, take your place in the society you actually wish to shape for your families. 

What I fail to understand is why a country needs a President and a Prime Minister. The former being someone who would again take some getting rid of. Even the US get rid of theirs when they don't like him.

Alan.


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> I must say, from reading your honest and personal opinions, I believe if the voters of each possible party have the calibre you seem to possess and the literacy you are portraying, there is a bright future for democracy in Egypt.
> 
> I sense you are scared of your options. I think you may be mesmerised by the veil of fear that has been taken from your eyes and don't know what to do about your new found freedom.
> 
> You need to go out there and convey your elation to those around you. Help create the platform for your needs and requirements of the new parliament by talking and debating with others of similar views. Stand as a member of your constituency for election even.... Have faith. Time is on your side.
> 
> What you shouldn't do is allow others you may regret, take your place in the society you actually wish to shape for your families.
> 
> What I fail to understand is why a country needs a President and a Prime Minister. The former being someone who would again take some getting rid of. Even the US get rid of theirs when they don't like him.
> 
> Alan.



Okay, I did say before that I do try my best to be objective and neutral, so I don’t talk about “me”, and you just made it harder to avoid talking about "my" life or what I see everyday in here, but I'll do my best not to 

Well, with all respect, but you’re a businessman I reckon? The kinda people you deal with on a daily basis are either educated, or people who are there to make money, I shall suggest you to get down to local areas and see how it’s like in there but I’d worry about your personal safety if you started asking about the “future” of Egypt, specially that you're a "foreigner"!!

What you think “mesmerized” me is still present, you think cause Mubarak left people started thinking differently in here?! “Regular” people in the streets still got the same worries they had, added a few more things to worry about maybe, the only obvious thing that has changed and came clear to be noticed?! People do not fear police anymore, people think there’s no law and they can do whatever they want, and people believing that the next “government” will have no problem whatsoever when it comes to hurting Copts! That’s what has changed so far!

I’m not the best example of a Christian that’s for sure, but I am proud of my identity and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, but trust me things are rough in real life in here, I got a Muslim friend who was ran over by a speedy car just cause he’s a friend of some Christians after being warned to “cut it out” with his “Christian” friends, I can show you people who wouldn’t wanna sell you something just cause you’re a Copt, or people who would spit on a Muslim girl that’s not wearing a Hijab in public's face, mind you what they’d do to a Christian one, I can show you people who actually pay good monthly payments for “men” to cover their wives and make them veiled, I can show you people who get paid to grow their beards, I can show you many things, and trust me you won’t like what you’d see! And you don’t see those things in Zamalik, Maadi, Sharm, or places like this, but it is happening! Egypt is not Zamalik and Sharm! Egypt is a country with an +80 MILLION population with an +80% of them POOR, not educated and have complete loyalty to their religion, not their country! And all that was happening when the “government” and “police” were there and people did fear it, so now with a new “government” who would be on their side?! You think they’ll stop?!!

So if you think those "people" would wanna sit and "Talk"?! Well, all I'm gonna say is that you'd be wrong, as for those who are just being brain washed?! For them? Money talks! 

Being a part of the society and make things go the way I want it to go for my family?! Well no offense but how do you know that I’m not doing everything I can?! 

Why this country needs a president?! Cause the majority of the people in here don’t know what freedom is, for them freedom means they get to lay in bed all day and the government would pay them for that, or that they can break into a bank and have all the money in it and it would be their RIGHT to do it, cause they think it would be their RIGHT to tell others what to wear/eat/say and so on, simply cause people in here don’t really know what FREEDOM is!


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## MensEtManus

I agree with DG, freedom here seems to mean everything is free and they get money for not working. No one wants to work. I still never understood the whole unemployment problem that many claim to exist in Egypt. Pre-Jan 25th, I had a huge problem trying to find folks to work. They would visit us, fill in an application, and never show up for work the next day. We also suffer from a huge turnover, when asked why you are leaving, the #1 reason is "the workload is heavy on me." We ask them, is it the salary, and most of them say no. We ask them, did you find another job, most would say not yet. So it never makes any sense why they decide to leave their job before securing another job.


The other point that made me post my question was exactly what you said DG regarding the departure of the Jews. I guess the Jews flourished in Egypt and eventually they left. The same might happen with the Copts (as Jules Verne said.. "nothing is impossible, but maybe improbable")

About the hijab issue, we all know the lolipop ads and we all have heard the stories about if not veiled then she is "arbaa reesha" (derogatory word for female copt). To be honest, I am counting on the Copts and the larger multinationals to save this country.


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## NZCowboy

MensEtManus said:


> The other point that made me post my question was exactly what you said DG regarding the departure of the Jews. I guess the Jews flourished in Egypt and eventually they left. The same might happen with the Copts (as Jules Verne said.. "nothing is impossible, but maybe improbable")
> /
> 
> 
> 
> "... eventually they left" you make it sound like the Jews had a choice, they were forced to leave, most only with the shirt on their back. Businesses were taken by the state, they were unable to sell their homes, or assets or transfer money.
> 
> Most Copts I know this has been a wake up call of how quickly things can change, while they love Egypt and hope it will be a change for good but most who can are covering there bases, transferring assets out of Egypt, preparing escape routes. While in London I have met four different Copt families who are leaving, 2-to UK, 1 to US and 1 to Canada plus I know of 2 other families that have brought houses in UK as back up.
> 
> Best to be proactive rather than reactive.
Click to expand...


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## Eco-Mariner

Quote: _To be honest, I am counting on the Copts and the larger International goups to save the country_ 

And that is why I feel there is a good chance to change society as a whole: but they need to get organised and not stay in bed. Egypt needs to wake up and change the habits of a lifetime. You needn't be subdued. You have a second chance, take it with both hands. I'm helping reform my industry in Egypt, please don't think it's a job for outsiders.

I say that from personal experience. I've seen the "street" mentality. Hired and fired these brainwashed folk. Trained those who shone, but yes you are correct, it's an uphill struggle to motivate anyone.

So !!!! What would you prefer? Another Taliban type administration? Another police state that's as corrupt as the last one? I don't think so. Motivate yourselves then you can motivate the masses. You don't need a President to lead them, an elected assembly with a nominated leader is sufficient and changed if they don't live up to expectations. UK has a "figure head" only. The Queen has no power, she's a symbol of British identity. The elected Prime Minister has the task of ruling the country.

Why shouldn't Egypt be the same? Like the Iraq and Afgan forces, they can be made to serve the public and not the tyrants. You have the Army in your trust at present, why not keep it that way? 

As for shell-shocked DeadGuy, your honesty becomes you and I follow everything you say. If money talks then let me have the chance to give them a good honest wage for honest work. However, workers don't get money for nothing in my side of the street.

I have a saying *"if things don't change in while, they stay as they are."*
Do Egyptians really want to miss this golden opportunity? 


Alan.


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## DeadGuy

MensEtManus said:


> I agree with DG, freedom here seems to mean everything is free and they get money for not working. No one wants to work. I still never understood the whole unemployment problem that many claim to exist in Egypt. Pre-Jan 25th, I had a huge problem trying to find folks to work. They would visit us, fill in an application, and never show up for work the next day. We also suffer from a huge turnover, when asked why you are leaving, the #1 reason is "the workload is heavy on me." We ask them, is it the salary, and most of them say no. We ask them, did you find another job, most would say not yet. So it never makes any sense why they decide to leave their job before securing another job.
> 
> 
> The other point that made me post my question was exactly what you said DG regarding the departure of the Jews. I guess the Jews flourished in Egypt and eventually they left. The same might happen with the Copts (as Jules Verne said.. "nothing is impossible, but maybe improbable")
> 
> About the hijab issue, we all know the lolipop ads and we all have heard the stories about if not veiled then she is "arbaa reesha" (derogatory word for female copt). To be honest, I am counting on the Copts and the larger multinationals to save this country.



Ok, I won't talk about the unemployment thing cause I think I talked enough about it, but I gotta admit that you sound very unlucky with the recruiting part! I'll be looking for a job soon, so if you still got a job and looking for someone I might be applying!  (Joking!! I never ask for favors!), but good luck finding the right ones! Sounds like you're gonna need it!

The Jews part............Well, I dunno what to say! Just hoping I'm wrong about what I'm seeing in here! That's all I can say! 

The "Arabaa reesha" thing goes for both males and females, but trust me it's nothing now, the new "thing" which is getting popular now is "kuffar" (Means infidels!), which is a bit worrying now cause an infidel is "Halal" to be killed! (By cutting throats actually!) So it is worrying!!


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## Eco-Mariner

In the UK last week we watched a documentary on how some UK Mosques are teaching Muslim students (after hours) the Quran but with the wrong messages.

The words "Kuffar" and "hate the white infidels" was beaten into these kids, here in our cities, so what chance has Egypt got to stop these fundementalists Imams preaching such hate to fellow men in Alexandria and Cairo?


Alan.


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## DeadGuy

NZCowboy said:


> "... eventually they left" you make it sound like the Jews had a choice, they were forced to leave, most only with the shirt on their back. Businesses were taken by the state, they were unable to sell their homes, or assets or transfer money.
> 
> Most Copts I know this has been a wake up call of how quickly things can change, while they love Egypt and hope it will be a change for good but most who can are covering there bases, transferring assets out of Egypt, preparing escape routes. While in London I have met four different Copt families who are leaving, 2-to UK, 1 to US and 1 to Canada plus I know of 2 other families that have brought houses in UK as back up.
> 
> Best to be proactive rather than reactive.



Even if Copts wanted to leave I don't think it will be easy, being a Christian/Copt never helped anyone I know obtaining any kind of visa, and politically speaking? To allow Copts a visa basing on their faith is not gonna happen unless there's an obvious problem (Obvious problem for politicians means +50% of Copts murdered, and they'd still need to "prove" that the murders were for religious reasons! Ha ha bloody ha!) So it's not gonna be that easy if you ask me! I'll be honest in here and have to say that the countries where Copts would wanna go got "higher" priorities to worry about, they simply don't give a sh!t about Copts :spit:


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> Quote: _To be honest, I am counting on the Copts and the larger International goups to save the country_
> 
> And that is why I feel there is a good chance to change society as a whole: but they need to get organised and not stay in bed. Egypt needs to wake up and change the habits of a lifetime. You needn't be subdued. You have a second chance, take it with both hands. I'm helping reform my industry in Egypt, please don't think it's a job for outsiders.
> 
> I say that from personal experience. I've seen the "street" mentality. Hired and fired these brainwashed folk. Trained those who shone, but yes you are correct, it's an uphill struggle to motivate anyone.
> 
> So !!!! What would you prefer? Another Taliban type administration? Another police state that's as corrupt as the last one? I don't think so. Motivate yourselves then you can motivate the masses. You don't need a President to lead them, an elected assembly with a nominated leader is sufficient and changed if they don't live up to expectations. UK has a "figure head" only. The Queen has no power, she's a symbol of British identity. The elected Prime Minister has the task of ruling the country.
> 
> Why shouldn't Egypt be the same? Like the Iraq and Afgan forces, they can be made to serve the public and not the tyrants. You have the Army in your trust at present, why not keep it that way?
> 
> As for shell-shocked DeadGuy, your honesty becomes you and I follow everything you say. If money talks then let me have the chance to give them a good honest wage for honest work. However, workers don't get money for nothing in my side of the street.
> 
> I have a saying *"if things don't change in while, they stay as they are."*
> Do Egyptians really want to miss this golden opportunity?
> 
> 
> Alan.


I’m sorry but I’m not really following you in here, I’m telling you that people don’t fear police anymore and think they can do whatever they want, and you’re telling me that Egypt needs to wake up and change the habits?! Sorry but that’s what I been trying to say!! THEY DID change their habits!!! But in the wrong direction!

You hire people and then you fire those who are brain washed, so you’re firing them, but in the meanwhile, telling me that I should change them?!! Do you have to be their neighbor? Do you have to deal with any of them +12 hours a day?! An employer/employee relationship is not the same as a LIVING one!

_“So !!!! What would you prefer?”_?! I don’t really know where did that come from?! No offense but who do you think I am?! It’s not up to me LOL! Trust me if it was up to me no one would like what I’d do to clean this mess!! But I said it in the first post in this thread, I’m only speaking for myself, no one else, so there’s no need for the drama, stop making it sound like it’s me who’s got all the keys to everything! I don’t! Best thing I can do right now is to keep both my family and myself SAFE, which is getting harder every day now!

_“You have the Army in your trust at present, why not keep it that way?”_?! What army?! And who’s side?! The army had the chance to pull out the current cabinet that was assigned by Mubarak, but they didn’t, doesn’t that make you wonder?! They shot monks with live ammo, RPG, and for what?! Cause they built a wall to protect their property after the police left, so tell me again, who’s side?!

You wanna give them jobs?! Well, that’s a good move, but why you think someone getting paid to cover his wife and kids, or paid to grow his beard, or someone who’s in a money laundry job would wanna trade getting paid for doing nothing to an actual real job?! (Won’t remind you of what you said about firing them though! I’ll assume that you’d be able to survive with them!).

Do Egyptians want to miss the opportunity?! Depends on their goals, for them?! They’re not gonna miss the chance, they are working really hard on getting their lil “Islamic State”!


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## MensEtManus

I did hear about the kuffar thing. When el-ahram beverages realized that they sell more beer than fayrouz drinks, they shifted many of their drivers to deliver beer. So a few months ago, I had a ton of drivers from el-ahram coming for work, and every single one kept mentioning that they left work because of the whole haram thing. 

After a few days, I caught one of them already stealing so I fired him. Sadly, they all came in as a group and once one of them left, they all left together. It is hilarious working to distribute beer is not allowed, but stealing from a foreigner is ok. 

EM:
I like your passion, a sort of hunger in the belly for change, I got a quote for you Albert Einstein said "The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it"

In all seriousness thou, I have yet to see anyone do anything positive. Tahrir today is packed and I feel many go there just to spend the weekend as a form of entertainment. On the other hand, many have forgotten that we need protection to ensure stability. If all those folks have so much free time, why don't they start protecting the streets....


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> In the UK last week we watched a documentary on how some UK Mosques are teaching Muslim students (after hours) the Quran but with the wrong messages.
> 
> The words "Kuffar" and "hate the white infidels" was beaten into these kids, here in our cities, so what chance has Egypt got to stop these fundementalists Imams preaching such hate to fellow men in Alexandria and Cairo?
> 
> 
> Alan.


Sorry but I have to say that 99% of the "Western" people are too busy trying to be "politically correct" and "good liberals" trying their best to overlook what's been happening around them!! The "infidel" part always been there, it just started getting public lately!!

"_What the chance has Egypt got to stop these fundamentalists Imams preaching such hate to fellow men in Alexandria and Cairo??!!_"??? So if you do know that already, then for bloody Christ's sake why have you been trying to put it all on me?!


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## Eco-Mariner

*Don't put the blame on me.*

_QUOTE: MeM: 
EM.
I like your passion, a sort of hunger in the belly for change, I got a quote for you Albert Einstein said "The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it"_

Does that answer your question DG?

I respond to your posts because I see you have the same passion as myself. But like all Egyptians over the 26 years I've worked with, they prefer to either let others do it, or hide their heads in the sand.
No wonder there's no rule of law.

I belive you have more guts than that.


Alan.


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> Does that answer your question DG?
> 
> I respond to your posts because I see you have the same passion as myself. But like all Egyptians over the 26 years I've worked with, they prefer to either let others do it, or hide their heads in the sand.
> No wonder there's no rule of law.
> 
> I belive you have more guts than that.
> 
> 
> Alan.


My God you just keep ignoring whatever I say!! You're not actually enjoying doing that are you?! 

You’re the second person in this forum that tends to take it to a personal level, so congrats for that!

But again, you’re the second person that thinks you know me in person or know what I’m doing or not doing, no offense but I got no regrets, and no matter how hard you try, no way I'd act like an idiot talking about “my great deeds” and blah blah blah, but like I said, I do not have any regrets, there’s NOTHING executable I ever wanted to do to make this sh!thole a better place to live that I did not do already, still doing as well, and time is only making it harder to do anything about it!!! People’s “antennas” are direct else where, and no, I’m not the kinda people who would hold a knife or a machine gun to make my point! And obviously that’s the only way to make people listen to you in Egypt!

So unless you’re gonna tell me that you know me enough to be able to tell me what I have/haven't done?! There’s no need for all the drama!


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## Sam

DeadGuy said:


> Okay, I did say before that I do try my best to be objective and neutral, so I don’t talk about “me”, and you just made it harder to avoid talking about "my" life or what I see everyday in here, but I'll do my best not to
> 
> Well, with all respect, but you’re a businessman I reckon? The kinda people you deal with on a daily basis are either educated, or people who are there to make money, I shall suggest you to get down to local areas and see how it’s like in there but I’d worry about your personal safety if you started asking about the “future” of Egypt, specially that you're a "foreigner"!!
> 
> What you think “mesmerized” me is still present, you think cause Mubarak left people started thinking differently in here?! “Regular” people in the streets still got the same worries they had, added a few more things to worry about maybe, the only obvious thing that has changed and came clear to be noticed?! People do not fear police anymore, people think there’s no law and they can do whatever they want, and people believing that the next “government” will have no problem whatsoever when it comes to hurting Copts! That’s what has changed so far!
> 
> I’m not the best example of a Christian that’s for sure, but I am proud of my identity and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, but trust me things are rough in real life in here, I got a Muslim friend who was ran over by a speedy car just cause he’s a friend of some Christians after being warned to “cut it out” with his “Christian” friends, I can show you people who wouldn’t wanna sell you something just cause you’re a Copt, or people who would spit on a Muslim girl that’s not wearing a Hijab in public's face, mind you what they’d do to a Christian one, I can show you people who actually pay good monthly payments for “men” to cover their wives and make them veiled, I can show you people who get paid to grow their beards, I can show you many things, and trust me you won’t like what you’d see! And you don’t see those things in Zamalik, Maadi, Sharm, or places like this, but it is happening! Egypt is not Zamalik and Sharm! Egypt is a country with an +80 MILLION population with an +80% of them POOR, not educated and have complete loyalty to their religion, not their country! And all that was happening when the “government” and “police” were there and people did fear it, so now with a new “government” who would be on their side?! You think they’ll stop?!!
> 
> So if you think those "people" would wanna sit and "Talk"?! Well, all I'm gonna say is that you'd be wrong, as for those who are just being brain washed?! For them? Money talks!
> 
> Being a part of the society and make things go the way I want it to go for my family?! Well no offense but how do you know that I’m not doing everything I can?!
> 
> Why this country needs a president?! Cause the majority of the people in here don’t know what freedom is, for them freedom means they get to lay in bed all day and the government would pay them for that, or that they can break into a bank and have all the money in it and it would be their RIGHT to do it, cause they think it would be their RIGHT to tell others what to wear/eat/say and so on, simply cause people in here don’t really know what FREEDOM is!



:clap2::clap2::clap2:

nuff said.

BTW - I've noticed you have changed your location to FREE Egypt and no longer unfortunately. Good for you.

My partner and I were discussing whilst all this was going on whether not just Egypt but Egyptians would actually gain freedom, and I mean freedom to travel anywhere at anytime just like a British passport holder. I understand there was a time when it was possible and holding an Egyptian passport was something to be proud of. May those days be resurrected now the oppressive regime has been lifted.


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> Quote:
> Do Egyptians really want to miss this golden opportunity?
> 
> 
> Alan.


THREE announced political parties coming out of different Islamic *FANATIC *groups *SO FAR*, so how about that for taking advantage of what's happening?!


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## MensEtManus

hey DG, what are they called? If I am not mistaken we have:
1) "el wasat" - promoting an Islamic Arab culture
2) "el adala" - I think this is the main one from the MB (is that correct?)


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## DeadGuy

MensEtManus said:


> hey DG, what are they called? If I am not mistaken we have:
> 1) "el wasat" - promoting an Islamic Arab culture
> 2) "el adala" - I think this is the main one from the MB (is that correct?)


* “El Wasat” already got the required paper work.

* “El Hurreya w el adala” is on the way now (Yes this is the MB’s one).

* “El Nahda” (So far anyway, idiots are still fighting eachother about the name!! Was gonna be “el Shariaa” first! But they knew this name would freak people out!) And this one is for the Islamic gama’a!!

But dude there are like 15 “political” parties being established now, those three ones are kinda the “significant” ones that’s all, but now every small group that no one even heard of them before and got their own sick “beliefs” wanna start a bloody party and wanna run for every kind of “elections”!!! Maybe I should start my own damn party now!!!

About 10/20 (No, I'm not sure, they're MANY!!!) Islamic “Sufi” groups said they wanna have their own parties, and that weird ancient guy (The one who still wears a bloody fez! Can’t remember his name! But I’m sure you’ve seen his pictures! He can’t even bloody pronounce right!) So all of them want their own parties!!!

My opinion?! They’re gonna make it look like a mess so they wouldn’t draw much attention, I mean who would worry about small stupid groups of idiots?! But they’ll get themselves united eventually creating one big cluster fu*k! Even if they never went public about being united, but they all got the same goal, a lil “Islamic State”!! And the reactions to all this on ground?!!! Trust me, I been through much sh!t before but this time it's totally different!! And no! Not the "nice" way of "different"!!


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## MensEtManus

thank you


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## marenostrum

DeadGuy said:


> * “Islamic State”!!


I think egyptiansd are too intelligent to fall for an islamic state.


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## DeadGuy

marenostrum said:


> I think egyptiansd are too intelligent to fall for an islamic state.


Ya, and I'm George W. Bush.........

But still, you have no idea how bad I want you to be right on this one!


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## bat

DeadGuy said:


> Ya, and I'm George W. Bush.........
> 
> But still, you have no idea how bad I want you to be right on this one!


Again we are in a country of Islam with 90% Muslim.
And yes I want him to be right, but chances are very slim on that one, majority rule etc.
Bat


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> I think egyptiansd are too intelligent to fall for an islamic state.




Lots of intelligent people live in an Islamic state...


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## Eco-Mariner

Approximately 91% of the 74 million Ethnic Egyptian population is Muslim (Sunni - 99%, Shia -1%) and 9% is Christian (8% Coptic Orthodox, 1% other Christian).

The estimated population is around 84 million that leaves 10 million who either are of no religious background (atheists) or those who want to be outside of these issues (ex-pats, businessmen and women etc.)

The estimated literacy rate of the 74 million Egyptians is, male: 83% female: 59.4% with a population growth rate of 2.033 % and an average age of 24. I

'm personally convinced there are sufficient numbers of intelligent members of society more than capable of running the State. 

The question is, of these intellects, who are the ones able to run a country in such a social, economical, environmental and political way, that it will please everybody and yet not bring religion into Parliamentary agendas? 

Alan.


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## MaidenScotland

In developing/third world countries religion always seems to play a large part of a persons life, my belief is that when you are struggling to eat each day then religion is your only hope.


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## NZCowboy

Eco-Mariner said:


> Approximately 91% of the 74 million Ethnic Egyptian population is Muslim (Sunni - 99%, Shia -1%) and 9% is Christian (8% Coptic Orthodox, 1% other Christian).
> 
> The estimated population is around 84 million that leaves 10 million who either are of no religious background (atheists) or those who want to be outside of these issues (ex-pats, businessmen and women etc.)
> 
> The estimated literacy rate of the 74 million Egyptians is, male: 83% female: 59.4% with a population growth rate of 2.033 % and an average age of 24. I
> 
> 'm personally convinced there are sufficient numbers of intelligent members of society more than capable of running the State.
> 
> The question is, of these intellects, who are the ones able to run a country in such a social, economical, environmental and political way, that it will please everybody and yet not bring religion into Parliamentary agendas?
> 
> Alan.


Source???


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> Approximately 91% of the 74 million Ethnic Egyptian population is Muslim (Sunni - 99%, Shia -1%) and 9% is Christian (8% Coptic Orthodox, 1% other Christian).
> 
> ......................................
> 
> Alan.


You got it all wrong.......It's 99.999999% Sunni Muslims in here, there are no Shea Muslims, Baha'ay Muslims, atheists, nor Jews in here..........

And the "9% Christian" thing is completely wrong as well.......There are only 9 small families that are living happily in here cause Islam says Christians can't be hurt as long as they're paying


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## Eco-Mariner

*Demographics of Egypt*



NZCowboy said:


> Source???


From *Wikipedia,* the free encyclopedia
CIA World Factbook of Demographic Statistics.
article 3.13 Religions.


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## MaidenScotland

Eco-Mariner said:


> From *Wikipedia,* the free encyclopedia
> CIA World Factbook of Demographic Statistics.
> article 3.13 Religions.




well that will be right then


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## Eco-Mariner

I refer back to my question in that post,

"who are the ones of Egyptian origin, able to run a country in such a social, economical, environmental and political way, that it will please everybody and yet not bring religion into Parliamentary agendas

Alan.


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## expatagogo

There are Bahai in Egypt. Their life is horrible, but they're there.

Can't imagine there's Shi'ite because Egyptian Sunnis say, "They're not Muslim," with a look on their face like they just sucked a lemon, but I don't know.

Atheists? Oh, Egypt has a bunch of atheists. They're just really, really quiet about it.


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## txlstewart

Wikipedia is compiled from those who submit it. It is not considered to be a credible source (for research papers at least) as they don't verify the material submitted.


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## Eco-Mariner

I am complying with everone's argument.

Would someone kindly answer my question? Who is fit to run the country?

Today we see the another move of Mubarak's cronies with the P.M. resigning.
Others reshuffle in the background, but which members of Egypt's citizens do forum members think will be liked and given a chance to hold office in the period before elections?

I was hoping for a response suggesting they would not be of religious tendancies.

Alan.


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## DeadGuy

Eco-Mariner said:


> I refer back to my question in that post,
> 
> "who are the ones of Egyptian origin, able to run a country in such a social, economical, environmental and political way, that it will please everybody and yet not bring religion into Parliamentary agendas
> 
> Alan.


That's assuming that keeping "religion" out of it will make everyone happy in here? 

Sorry but you're asking the *wrong *question in here..........

The availability of someone being able to_ run the country in such a social, economical, environmental and political way_ but keeping "religion" out of the equation is not the issue in here, there are people who are qualified (At least for me!!) that can do that..........

*BUT*, the majority of the population in here won't be "happy" at all if "religion" was kept out of the political game, this is a fact, whether anyone likes it or not, it's still a fact!


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## MaidenScotland

I for one have no idea who would be fit to run this country.. I suspect I am not alone in the expat community when I say I had no interest in the politics of this country before the revolution and for me to say who is fit and who isn't would be very insulting to the Egyptian population.


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> I for one have no idea who would be fit to run this country.. I suspect I am not alone in the expat community when I say I had no interest in the politics of this country before the revolution and for me to say who is fit and who isn't would be very insulting to the Egyptian population.


:clap2::clap2::clap2: and at the end of the day all expats are just guests in the country.....so have to go with the flow,whatever the outcome.......or get out


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## bat

hurghadapat said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2: and at the end of the day all expats are just guests in the country.....so have to go with the flow,whatever the outcome.......or get out


Yes couldn't agree more, but when you speak to ordinary Egyptians they have no one in mind either, and not to bothered as long as everything gets back to normal.


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## hurghadapat

bat said:


> Yes couldn't agree more, but when you speak to ordinary Egyptians they have no one in mind either, and not to bothered as long as everything gets back to normal.


yes well this is where it could all go wrong......if they let apathy sink in....because we all know what getting back to normal means..ie..right back to square one


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## NZCowboy

One of the fundamentals of a demoracy is one person one vote. 
Which implies everyone is equal. The constitution needs to reflect this.
But this is in conflict with the traditional teachings of Islam, where the muslim male is superior to the female, and to the non-muslim. 
Currently in the constitution, there are different laws and rules for musilms and non-muslims, males and females.
Until this changes demoracy will always struggle.


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## MaidenScotland

NZCowboy said:


> One of the fundamentals of a demoracy is one person one vote.
> Which implies everyone is equal. The constitution needs to reflect this.
> But this is in conflict with the traditional teachings of Islam, where the muslim male is superior to the female, and to the non-muslim.
> Currently in the constitution, there are different laws and rules for musilms and non-muslims, males and females.
> Until this changes demoracy will always struggle.


:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## DeadGuy

NZCowboy said:


> One of the fundamentals of a demoracy is one person one vote.
> Which implies everyone is equal. The constitution needs to reflect this.
> But this is in conflict with the traditional teachings of Islam, where the muslim male is superior to the female, and to the non-muslim.
> Currently in the constitution, there are different laws and rules for musilms and non-muslims, males and females.
> Until this changes demoracy will always struggle.


Can't find a better response to your GREAT post except for this one.........And please pardon me for using this BS to respond to your brilliant post 



> What the Muslim Brothers Want
> By ESSAM EL-ERRIAN
> 
> In Egypt, religion continues to be an important part of our culture and heritage. Moving forward, we envision the establishment of a democratic, civil state that draws on universal measures of freedom and justice, which are central Islamic values. We embrace democracy not as a foreign concept that must be reconciled with tradition, but as a set of principles and objectives that are inherently compatible with and reinforce Islamic tenets.


Was gonna try and choose parts of the "paragraph" to put on bold font, but it's all "worth" reading......

That's the "Democracy" they want in here, the democracy that makes a "woman" or a "Copt" unsuitable for presidency, and makes their OWN people "bizarre" for considering disagreeing with them......

For those who need to laugh, a link to the whole "article" http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/opinion/10erian.html?_r=4

It's a shame that this BS is published by the New York Times 

God bless the democracy


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## Eco-Mariner

Thanks for these comments, NZ especially.

So the consensus of opinion is that a Political Muslim party could possibly be elected and another Iran will emmerge?

Alan.


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## Sam

NZCowboy said:


> One of the fundamentals of a demoracy is one person one vote.
> Which implies everyone is equal. The constitution needs to reflect this.
> But this is in conflict with the traditional teachings of Islam, where the muslim male is superior to the female, and to the non-muslim.
> Currently in the constitution, there are different laws and rules for musilms and non-muslims, males and females.
> Until this changes demoracy will always struggle.


Let's just hope someone somewhere who has the power also has the sense.


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