# The western media is at it again



## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

ABC News Exclusive: Torture Tape Implicates UAE Royal Sheikh - ABC News


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

This is such old news, it's on UAE PRISON.COM Covers Trade Union UAE, Human Trafficking UAE, Workers Union UAE, Guest Workers UAE, Human Rights, Economy, Investors, Investments, Information, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Arab Gulf, Arab Emirates. and has been there for years.

What is it that you have against the UAE bdb?


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

Bdb doesn`t appear to have anything against the Uae. In the light of this video being highlighted by the American and world press it is an intirely reasonable posting. 
After all this is one of the UAE`s top elite, viewed as an example to many and he is going to get away with this without question. Sickening really, don`t you think?, and a good reminder that all that glisters in Dubai is definitely not gold!


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Felixtoo2 said:


> Bdb doesn`t appear to have anything against the Uae. In the light of this video being highlighted by the American and world press it is an intirely reasonable posting.
> After all this is one of the UAE`s top elite, viewed as an example to many and he is going to get away with this without question. Sickening really, don`t you think?, and a good reminder that all that glisters in Dubai is definitely not gold!


What's this got to do with Dubai too?


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

If you believe that this has nothing to do with life and the external perceptions of life in Dubai you really do live in a remarkably small bubble.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

It's abu dhabi mate, not dubai, I was being my usual pedantic self...


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

AndyC - I think few posters on here are aware of the history of the UAE.  

The current rulers are barely a generation on from those that led raiding parties...

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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

I don`t really think it takes much of a history lesson to understand how closely linked Abu Dhabi and Dubai are and I think even fewer posters here will accept condescending colonial attitudes.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Hang on a minute, closely linked? 40 years ago Al Nahyan (AD) and Mactoum (Dubai) were still invading each others space and were basically at war, then in 1971 the British got together and brought the country together under relative peace, but you can't take hundreds of years of hatred and one upmanship away through the signing of a document in Jumeriah. As anyone who knows anything of the history of these parts and the races involved, getting one over on the opposition is one of the things that drives the tribes.

So in answer to your implied question, Dubai is probably a) finding it hilarious that the video is out there and b) thinking there but for the grace of god go I.

I've been accused of many things in my time, but i have to hand it to you "condescending colonial attitudes" is a first.

Thank you!


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

Andy are you saying that if the person in the video was somebody from the Makhtoum family and not the Nahyan family then we would have seen some form of justice?


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Not at all, where did I suggest that?


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Felixtoo2 said:


> I don`t really think it takes much of a history lesson to understand how closely linked Abu Dhabi and Dubai are and I think even fewer posters here will accept condescending colonial attitudes.


But clearly you missed that lesson. 

The two families may live just a few kilometres apart and have intermarried, but that does not undo a century of infighting.

Neither Andy nor I have a 'condescending colonial attitude' just a better understanding of issues after having lived here for a few years...

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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

bdb said:


> Andy are you saying that if the person in the video was somebody from the Makhtoum family and not the Nahyan family then we would have seen some form of justice?



Don't make things up please. It is neither big nor clever to try and pick a fight...

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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

I love the irony of this report.

The american co-chairman of the House Human Rights Commission commenting on the treatment of prisoners.................Camp X Ray ring any bells? Water-boarding?

This is not a dig at all Americans, but if people want to scratch beneath the surface of any country, you'll find abuse


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

ogri do they torture people for allegedly stealing $5000 at gitmo? 

Torture tape delays U.S.-UAE nuclear deal, say U.S. officials - CNN.com


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Alledgedly this was over $5000 worth of grain. Who really knows? Only the people there. The business man who smuggled out this tape is in a dispute with the sheihk. How are we to know if what he is saying is right or whether he publicly wants to grind his axe? The "victim" could be a rapist, murderer, drug seller for all we know. Never accept things at face value. It is not always what it seems.

I don't know what they based their torture criteria on in Cuba, and to be frank, I don't care.

I am not naive enough not to believe that certain methods can produce results. the question is, how reliable are the results? Torture does not always lead to facts, it only leads to answers.

Incidently, interogation via torture is banned by the Geneva Convention of which America is a signed up member of. 

This ABC video shows the acts of a couple of men. what happens/happened at Camp X ray, Camp Delta, Abu Ghraib and numerous other locations around the world is sanctioned by complicit governments.

Which is worse?


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

ah yes, you are right. just because somebody else is doing something wrong makes it ok for us to do the same  

and you are right, after all the guy in the video is an Afghan national, so hes got to be a drug dealer. So all drug dealers, rapists, murderers have to undergo such forms of interrogation huh?


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Top post ogri...

As I said before, perhaps some of the posters appear to have an axe to grind here...


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

i bet you have a lot of friends mate


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## Easy Rider (Oct 23, 2008)

Ogri750 said:


> Alledgedly this was over $5000 worth of grain. Who really knows? Only the people there. The business man who smuggled out this tape is in a dispute with the sheihk. How are we to know if what he is saying is right or whether he publicly wants to grind his axe? The "victim" could be a rapist, murderer, drug seller for all we know. Never accept things at face value. It is not always what it seems.
> 
> I don't know what they based their torture criteria on in Cuba, and to be frank, I don't care.
> 
> ...


Ogri, do you even realise that your post is not only truly sickening but that your argumentation is skewed and downright false. It is sickening because you fail to see this piece of news -even if it isn't that new- as what every human being worth the name should see: the deeply disturbing acts of of a psychopath who should spend the rest of his life in jail or in a hospital. I won't tell you to go out there and check out some other forums/newspaper/blogs what, thank God, the reaction of the vast majority of the people is, because that wouldn't be a rational argument or a valid point, but quite frankly I think you need to get your head out of your ***.
I'll try to explain to you why your argumentation is skewed and fundamentally false as well as irrational and unjustifiable. My job is actually quite easy as everyone on this forum will see exactly what I'm talking about when I go through the structure of your thought and as your type of behaviour is described at length by Schopenhauer in The Art of Being Always Rigth, or more recently by Johan Hari in a response to all the feedback he received from his negative article about Dubai. Anyway, your technique, be it conscious or not, is to immediately draw a parrallel between the fact that is initially brought to the conversation and another, unrelated supposedly equivalent fact which is supposed to embarrass the party who started the argument. By not replying on the same factual, substantial level, and by systematically drawing a comparison with others facts in different contexts, you minimise, and relativise, the importance of the initial argument and avoid having to give a substanciated answer. 

For example, if someone was to write a story on modern-day slavery in the UAE, you would reply that the West -presumably where the writer hails from- has no clean past in this regard. If someone was to criticise the justice system here you'd have to say how bad it is in the West and how morally corrupted our societies are anyway and so on, and so forth. Or you might be presented with undeniable evidence of utterly sick, barbaric torture and just comment on how bad Guantanamo was. And whilst it certainly was jolly bad, as by the way were several millions of other things in human history, it is an unrelated, displaced argument which only purpose is to minimise, if not deny, the cruelty of this act. I mean, come on, what does America have to do with this? 

Do you see what I'm trying to say? I'm asking the question because I take it that you are an intelligent, somehow educated person and it hurts me to see that you fall in the same category as the people whose only stupid, automated answer to critics of Dubai, the UAE, etc. is to immidiately point to the West blame it for everything. 

I am not going to go on and explain why I think the specific case of Guantanamo is a particularly badly chosen parallel. My point is, just face the facts. Don't deny, don't refer to how bad the "other side" is because this is not the point. You'll see my friend, you'll look a lot smarter and a lot more human.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

So what you're saying is ER, when I got through all the mumbo-jumbo I swallowed a dictionary for breakfast fluff, is that you believe the following:-

1) All torture is wrong no matter where and how

and

2) You believe the contents of the tape or rather the "facts" that allegedly surround the case. 

Where is the independent truth of who the guy was? We know it was smuggled out by someone with an axe to grind against the Sheikh, but we don't know whether the two are connected in any way shape or form.

Open your eyes and ears because the truth is out there, things really are not always as they seem.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Easy Rider said:


> Ogri, do you even realise that your post is not only truly sickening but that your argumentation is skewed and downright false. It is sickening because you fail to see this piece of news -even if it isn't that new- as what every human being worth the name should see: the deeply disturbing acts of of a psychopath who should spend the rest of his life in jail or in a hospital. I won't tell you to go out there and check out some other forums/newspaper/blogs what, thank God, the reaction of the vast majority of the people is, because that wouldn't be a rational argument or a valid point, but quite frankly I think you need to get your head out of your ***.
> I'll try to explain to you why your argumentation is skewed and fundamentally false as well as irrational and unjustifiable. My job is actually quite easy as everyone on this forum will see exactly what I'm talking about when I go through the structure of your thought and as your type of behaviour is described at length by Schopenhauer in The Art of Being Always Rigth, or more recently by Johan Hari in a response to all the feedback he received from his negative article about Dubai. Anyway, your technique, be it conscious or not, is to immediately draw a parrallel between the fact that is initially brought to the conversation and another, unrelated supposedly equivalent fact which is supposed to embarrass the party who started the argument. By not replying on the same factual, substantial level, and by systematically drawing a comparison with others facts in different contexts, you minimise, and relativise, the importance of the initial argument and avoid having to give a substanciated answer.
> 
> For example, if someone was to write a story on modern-day slavery in the UAE, you would reply that the West -presumably where the writer hails from- has no clean past in this regard. If someone was to criticise the justice system here you'd have to say how bad it is in the West and how morally corrupted our societies are anyway and so on, and so forth. Or you might be presented with undeniable evidence of utterly sick, barbaric torture and just comment on how bad Guantanamo was. And whilst it certainly was jolly bad, as by the way were several millions of other things in human history, it is an unrelated, displaced argument which only purpose is to minimise, if not deny, the cruelty of this act. I mean, come on, what does America have to do with this?
> ...



I have neither condoned or condemned the actions in the video. What I have said, is no-one on this forum or outside the circle of people that were there know the true facts.

My comparison between this and events elsewhere was in reaction to sanctimonious american politicians telling us how disgraceful torture is, when his own government is responsible for numerous acts of torture. That is the basis for the involvement of other countries acts.

What's the phrase I am looking for........oh yes - pot, kettle, black.

Please don't try to carry out an analysis of my physce based on the premise of a post on a public forum. You have have woeful shortcomings in your conclusions and as for your condescending "you'll look a look smarter" comment, please, get over yourself.

As for torture and interogation techniques, I think I may know slightly more than you on the subject my friend. That's the problem with a public forum, you never know who you are talking to or what their background is.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

bdb said:


> ah yes, you are right. just because somebody else is doing something wrong makes it ok for us to do the same
> 
> and you are right, after all the guy in the video is an Afghan national, so hes got to be a drug dealer. So all drug dealers, rapists, murderers have to undergo such forms of interrogation huh?



Point out to me anywhere that I have defended any form of torture.

Also, where did I state the guy WAS a drug dealer. I offered that as a potential motive. I don't know what he did, and neither do you. We are given the version of events by one man. A man with issues involving him and the sheihk.

Of course I must have said that if he was a rapist, drug dealer, murderer etc it was ok did I? I can't find the part where I said that all Afghan national are drug dealers. Must have mistyped that part when I said that all Afghanis were members of the Taliban. Oh wait, I didn't say that either.

Don't try to put read what isn't there.


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## spartan (Apr 28, 2009)

Yes we don't know the reasons behind this afghan man being tortured, but the fact of the matter remains that he WAS in fact tortured. Regardless of what part of the world you're in or how much power you yield, torture is morally reprehensible and can not be defended. 

As far as ogri pointing fingers at Americans is concerned, step off your high horse and reconsider your statements. Yes, my point of view might be a little biased because I am American, but if one were to stick with your arguement, no one would really be able to say anything. I don't think there is a single country or empire without a history of human rights abuses, be it america and gitmo, britain and colonialism, or various empires like the roman, mughal, persian, greek, mongol, chinese etc. 

The point is to learn from the mistakes and make sure that other people don't suffer by those mistakes being repeated through time.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Spartan, 

I wasn't pointing fingers at America, the British government has carried out enough dubious activities themselves. Both the US and the British were based in Cuba.

I agree with your post


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## spartan (Apr 28, 2009)

Didn't mean to be too harsh on you there either, buddy. Glad we're on the same page.


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

OGRI, 
one of your original posts did appear to imply that this sort of treatment may be understandable if we knew the full circumstances surrounding the event. Regardless of whatever crime was comitted by the Afghan that torture was not justice. That the horror of it was proudly recorded copied and shown to others is something that even the most tame of Expats should find reprehensible so quite understandably some of us here appear to be bemused by the others tacit acceptance of the situation. Maybe it has to be someone with a fairer complexion on the end of a cattle prod to make it news worthy here.

As for Andy trying to say, " its Abu not Dub, mate" LOL. Even in your own first post you only mentioned the UAE, do you hire him out for parties?

As for missing history lessons let me put it in more simplistic terms for you. If someone north of Hadrians wall had done this would you have said it has nothing to do with the dwellers on the south side because they have had historical differences and are still not best of friends? Abu Dhabi is backing up Dubai and helping to finance the escape from the present credit crunch, regardless of what tribe you are from here the rest of us are just infidels and viewed as a commodity that has to be managed.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Felixtoo2 said:


> OGRI,
> one of your original posts did appear to imply that this sort of treatment may be understandable if we knew the full circumstances surrounding the event. Regardless of whatever crime was comitted by the Afghan that torture was not justice. That the horror of it was proudly recorded copied and shown to others is something that even the most tame of Expats should find reprehensible so quite understandably some of us here appear to be bemused by the others tacit acceptance of the situation. Maybe it has to be someone with a fairer complexion on the end of a cattle prod to make it news worthy here.
> 
> As for Andy trying to say, " its Abu not Dub, mate" LOL. Even in your own first post you only mentioned the UAE, do you hire him out for parties?
> ...


Your "Hadrian's Wall" analogy is deeply flawed, we're not taking hundreds of years here we're talking less than 2 generations. By mentioning the UAE in my first post i was being accurate, i did not mention a particular Emirate, It is your lack of knowledge by stating in posts 3 & 5 that it was in fact Dubai is factually wrong.

Abu Dhabi is not "backing up Dubai and helping to finance the escape from the present credit crunch" it is buying the major assets of Dubai in a business deal, ie it is taking over Dubai by stealth not by fighting. Mark my words in 10 years time Abu Dhabi will be a separate country within the GCC, probably with absolute rule over Dubai.

You really do have a huge chip on your shoulder don't you, firstly stating me and Elph's alleged "condescending colonial attitudes" and then that if the victim was "someone with a fairer complexion" then it would be newsworthy, why is this? Are you so deeply insecure against the British? Also judging from your replies, are you so insecure that you need to use your thesaurus so you can sound intelligent.

As for the "Hiring him out for parties" how pathetic you are. Grow up.

Let me give you a hint, try to get your facts correct before talking total rubbish in long words that make you feel good.

You probably have a very small penis too.


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

Felix,

I'm sorry if that's how my post came across, that wasn't the intent. What I was trying to say was, *IF* the victim had been guilty of something very serious, then maybe that would have been the aggressor's justification. I don't think i said that it was acceptable or justified. 

I know if one of my kids was harmed (intentionally) by someone, the guilty party would have received far worse than shown in that video. I wouldn't care how barbaric others thought I was. In my opinion I would be justified.

There are far worse things happening all around the globe, it is not a problem particular to the UAE, but that doesn't make it right.


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## alli (Mar 6, 2008)

Points to be made:

1. Nobody, except the people in that torture room, knows exactly what went on and how the circumstances came about. Maybe the victim had done something horrible to the sheikh first. However, this does not make torture right, or valid in any case. An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

2. Regardless of that, the torture captured on film was an abomination and the Sheikh and his family should not only be ashamed of themselves, but prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

3. That said, EVERYONE who engages in torture should be prosecuted also. Regardless of country, race or religion.

4. Quote from BDB- "and you are right, after all the guy in the video is an Afghan national, so hes got to be a drug dealer."

I know you were being sarcastic, but who cares if the guy in the video is an Afghan? He could be chinese, russian, australian or italian for all anyone cares. Torture is torture, regardless of nationality. It seems perhaps you are more hung up on him being Afghani than anyone else here, so stop trying to make out like it's the others in the thread being racist. It's you, buddy. 

In conclusion - everyone STFU


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## Felixtoo2 (Jan 16, 2009)

Andy, I certainly haven`t used any "big words", a Thesaurus or a spell checker so maybe it is just the benefit of a good education. If English isn`t your first language please accept my apology. You shouldn`t really assume that you are talking to halfwits as many of us are really quite bright. 
Chip on my shoulder? Not at all old boy, I simply thought that your first post on this topic was a fairly blunt attempt to stop any further discussion on the subject and that you spoke to bdb as though he were out of order and you were giving him the brush off, in my book that is condescending. My posts 3 and 5 do indeed refer to Dubai but if you actually read them you will notice that not once did I say or imply that this occured in Dubai. 
The points that i was making were firstly, something like this happening barely 100km down the road will be viewed by the outside world as reflecting on Dubai as the most prominent part of the UAE. Secondly for these actions to go unpunnished will send a message to other Emiratis that this is somehow acceptable behavior and that they are above the law which in many cases here is not far from the truth. 
As for your sense of humour please let me return your kindness and offer you a hint, if you can`t take it don`t give it. It`s my birthday soon and you are definitely invited as I am sure that we will get on like a house on fire. 
Regarding your penile fascination, i suggest if you wish to see a really big one just look in a mirror cock. (please note cock is coloquial English for mate as well as knob)

Ogri , thanks for your post. Like you i`m a 750 man though its starting to get a bit hot again.


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## Easy Rider (Oct 23, 2008)

Felixtoo2 said:


> Secondly for these actions to go unpunnished will send a message to other Emiratis that this is somehow acceptable behavior and that they are above the law which in many cases here is not far from the truth.QUOTE]
> 
> As if it wasn't already the case...


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

There's good and bad here, in the same way that there's good and bad in every country (new labour spin/burying bad news on 9/11 anyone?). However I do still firmly believe that this dusty city is better than most business-wise.

The defence rests,


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## mogy71 (Apr 11, 2009)

From the posts it seems like Ogri and Andy need to remove those equine blinkers they were given on entering the place.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

Right. I have read through the whole thread and am now quite cross. 

If people cannot respond politely, then do not respond at all. The insults thrown around are really quite childish and any more of this and I will be handing out infractions. It appears to me that certain posters have an axe to grind and that others ought to read up on the history of the UAE before making comment on its history.



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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

mogy71 said:


> From the posts it seems like Ogri and Andy need to remove those equine blinkers they were given on entering the place.


Mate, I am far from blinkered. On the contrary, my eyes are open to events all round the world.

Not once have defended the actions in the video, and if you would like to fully read my posts you will actually see that my main issue is with an american politician condemming things that his government is quite happy to sanction.

I could if you like document actions by other governments ie Iran, KSA, Sudan etc that the west would consider torture and barbaric, but is accepted in those countries.

Besides which, I don't actually describe that video as a torture video. I would actually class it as a very severe punishment beating. If you need clarification on what that is, do a search on Northern Irish paramiltaries.

Now, if you excuse me, I need to get my saddle put on for the 3.00pm race at Jebel Ali


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

Ogri750 said:


> I could if you like document actions by other governments ie Iran, KSA, Sudan etc that the west would consider torture and barbaric, but is accepted in those countries.


As an Iranian I have to wonder how the world would have reacted if Ahmadinejads brother were to do that to some Afghan national because he was allegedly cheated out of $5000. I am sure all the major networks would have jumped all over it. 

I guess thats the price that Iran has to pay for not being america's lapdog!


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## Lee1971 (Mar 14, 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Right. I have read through the whole thread and am now quite cross.
> 
> If people cannot respond politely, then do not respond at all. The insults thrown around are really quite childish and any more of this and I will be handing out infractions. It appears to me that certain posters have an axe to grind and that others ought to read up on the history of the UAE before making comment on its history.
> 
> ...


I have just read thru this thread in its entirety and am gutted I was away when these boys were fighting. I agree that at times comments were somewhat insulting, but then this is a very contentious subject.

I don't think anyone is so naive they they do not realise that this sort of behaviour, albeit to a lesser or greater extent, doesn't take place in just about every country in the world. Every Gov't/individual will publicly condemn it of course, but it happens in war, by criminals, behind closed doors - wife beaters, kid beaters. Occasionally, we get to hear about it and the perpetrators are usually prosecuted. 

Of course torture is unacceptable in every instance, someone posted about if his/her kids were deliberately harmed they would do the same, or at least seek some kind of revenge or retribution - I understand that thought, but would he really, who knows until your in that situation, lets hope none of us ever are.

At the end of the day we are animals still evolving, I don't think we will ever be able to say 'we have evolved' at least certainly not in my lifetime. You ever seen a cat catch a mouse, it doesn't always just kill it, he'll play with it for hours before killing it, thats torture, yet cats are lovely creatures that we keep as pets!!

Men are always comparing the size of their knobs in some format, here comparing intellect levels from short postings on a forum, surely that ain't clever by definition! Men play competetive sports, in good spirit but occasionally end up fighting and punching lumps out of one another, but at the end of the game you shake hands, have a shower (either feel good that your knob is bigger or have respect for the guy with a big wanger) then buy one another beers and have a good time.

Anyway, torture is bad, but it happens, just try not to get yourself into a situation where you could be on the receiving end of it! Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't kill, avoid conflict....blah blah

My final thought is that AndyC must have a big one, he seems to have no trouble getting girls, which cannot be on the basis of his good looks (respect)!!!!!


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## Ogri750 (Feb 14, 2008)

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones


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## bdb (Apr 24, 2009)

ahmm, he is now "under arrest" 

Sheikh reportedly detained pending torture investigation - CNN.com


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

As we do not want this board to be banned in the UAE, posters will kindly moderate their negative comments so it will be done for them.


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