# Residency requirements spain 2013



## Pesky Wesky

Some info which is needed by all EU citizens

RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS - SPAIN

(PLEASE NOTE RESIDENCY MEANS SIGNING ON A REGISTER. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP YOUR PASSPORT OR SIMILAR)
*Residency requirements*

From 28 March 2007, Royal Decree 240/07 requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months should register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros in their province of residence or at designated Police stations. You will be issued an A4 printed Residence Certificate stating your name, address, nationality, NIE number (Número de Identificación Extranjeros) and date of registration.

On 10 July 2012 the Spanish government introduced details of the new residency requirements for all EU citizens
Under the new rules, EU citizens applying for residency in Spain may be required to produce evidence of sufficient financial means to support themselves (and dependants). Applicants may also be asked for proof of private or public healthcare insurance.


Nationals of:


a member state of the European Union
other States party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area
Switzerland
 have a right to reside in Spain for a period of longer than three months if they meet the conditions laid down in Article 7 of Royal Decree 240/2007, of 16 February 2007, on entrance, free movement and residence in Spain of Nationals of European Union member states and of other states party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area.

FROM THE FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some info which is needed by all EU citizens
> 
> RESIDENCY REQUIREMENTS - SPAIN
> 
> (PLEASE NOTE RESIDENCY MEANS SIGNING ON A REGISTER. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP YOUR BRITISH PASSPORT OR SIMILAR)
> *Residency requirements*
> 
> From 28 March 2007, Royal Decree 240/07 requires that all EU citizens planning to reside in Spain for more than 3 months should register in person at the Oficina de Extranjeros in their province of residence or at designated Police stations. You will be issued an A4 printed Residence Certificate stating your name, address, nationality, NIE number (Número de Identificación Extranjeros) and date of registration.
> 
> On 10 July 2012 the Spanish government introduced details of the new residency requirements for all EU citizens, including British nationals.
> Under the new rules, EU citizens applying for residency in Spain may be required to produce evidence of sufficient financial means to support themselves (and dependants). Applicants may also be asked for proof of private or public healthcare insurance.
> 
> 
> Nationals of:
> 
> 
> a member state of the European Union
> other States party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area
> Switzerland
> have a right to reside in Spain for a period of longer than three months if they meet the conditions laid down in Article 7 of Royal Decree 240/2007, of 16 February 2007, on entrance, free movement and residence in Spain of Nationals of European Union member states and of other states party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area.
> 
> FROM THE FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE
> https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain


thanks PW - I'm going to copy/paste that into the first post of the FAQs thread........


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## xabiaxica

also... from EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe        


> *Registration *
> 
> During the *first 3 months* of your stay in your new country, *you cannot be required to register* (to obtain a document confirming your right to stay) but can do so if you wish.
> *After 3 months* in your new country, *you may be required* to register with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station).
> To obtain *your *
> *registration*
> * certificate*, you will need:
> 
> *Employees / Postings abroad *
> Valid identity card or passport
> Certificate of employment or confirmation of recruitment from your employer
> 
> *Self-employed *
> Valid identity card or passport
> Proof of your status as self-employed
> 
> *Pensioners *
> Valid identity card or passport
> Proof of comprehensive health insurance
> Proof you can support yourself without needing income support.


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## snikpoh

... and what if you are not; a pensioner, an employee or self-employed?


I don't think it should simply say pensioner - it should be 'anyone else'.


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## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> ... and what if you are not; a pensioner, an employee or self-employed?
> 
> 
> I don't think it should simply say pensioner - it should be 'anyone else'.



me too.... but bottom line is, you have to prove one way or another that you can support yourself & have some sort of healthcare provision

& Spain REQUIRES that you register.....


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## Hombre62

xabiachica said:


> also... from EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********


In the interests of balance, the following extracts should also be quoted, I feel.



> If you have to register, you may be fined for not doing so but may continue to live in the country and cannot be expelled just for this.
> 
> In many countries, you will need to carry your registration certificate and national identity card or passport at all times. If you leave them at home, you may be fined but cannot be expelled just for this.





> You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave.
> 
> In exceptional cases, your new country can decide to expel you on grounds of public policy or public security but only if it can prove you represent a very serious threat.
> 
> The expulsion decision or the request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the grounds, and specify how you can appeal and by when.


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## Pesky Wesky

If anyone wants it straight from the horses mouth...
Estancia y residencia - Ministerio del Interior


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## xabiaxica

Hombre62 said:


> In the interests of balance, the following extracts should also be quoted, I feel.


absolutely....

but as has been pointed out many times before - it is getting increasingly difficult to get anything done without the resident registration cert......

yes, those who have lived 'below the radar' for a long time might well be unaffected & be able to continue to do so - but for new people coming over, it's much more difficult


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## Hombre62

xabiachica said:


> but as has been pointed out many times before - it is getting increasingly difficult to get anything done without the resident registration cert......


Let me just say at this point that I don't have a dog in this fight, but this whole issue seems to centre on a circular argument.

The Spanish government is playing to the gallery by "being seen to be doing something" about uncontrolled immigration. The reality is that Spain, in common with all other EU countries has very little to offer in the way of effective sanctions against EU citizens who fail (or refuse) to engage in their registration protocols.

The requirements for "legal" residency in Spain are minimal and IMO perfectly reasonable - a very modest income and very basic healthcare insurance.

The "difficulty in getting things done" would seem to centre on such matters as the buying and selling of properties, transacting business, and registering vehicles (or so it would appear from reading this forum and others). Since these activities are more or less predicated on the ready availability of cash, I don't see any meaningful impediment to achieving residency for any EU citizen in this position.

If a person feels the need to stay "under the radar" due to lack of funds, the practical limitations brought about by the lack of "residencia" are fairly meaningless, are they not?


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## Pesky Wesky

Hombre62 said:


> The "difficulty in getting things done" would seem to centre on such matters as the buying and selling of properties, transacting business, and registering vehicles (or so it would appear from reading this forum and others). Since these activities are more or less predicated on the ready availability of cash, I don't see any meaningful impediment to achieving residency for any EU citizen in this position.


It all depends on what you want to do in Spain. If you have children that need schooling, if you want to do any activity at the town hall, if you want to pay any bills from the town hall, if you want a car, if you want to work... all require an NIE number somewhere along the line. In many cases, but not all, you'll need an NIE number to just rent your accommodation.
If you just want to *be*, and not *do* anything, you might just get away with using your passport.

But, people do need to be clear that officially it's illegal and you'd be doing just that - getting away with it.


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## xabiaxica

Hombre62 said:


> Let me just say at this point that I don't have a dog in this fight, but this whole issue seems to centre on a circular argument.
> 
> The Spanish government is playing to the gallery by "being seen to be doing something" about uncontrolled immigration. The reality is that Spain, in common with all other EU countries has very little to offer in the way of effective sanctions against EU citizens who fail (or refuse) to engage in their registration protocols.
> *
> The requirements for "legal" residency in Spain are minimal and IMO perfectly reasonable - a very modest income and very basic healthcare insurance.*
> 
> The "difficulty in getting things done" would seem to centre on such matters as the buying and selling of properties, transacting business, and registering vehicles (or so it would appear from reading this forum and others). Since these activities are more or less predicated on the ready availability of cash, I don't see any meaningful impediment to achieving residency for any EU citizen in this position.
> 
> If a person feels the need to stay "under the radar" due to lack of funds, the practical limitations brought about by the lack of "residencia" are fairly meaningless, are they not?


exactly - so modest in fact that not many could actually live comfortably on the required amount....

I know those who live 'under the radar' so that the taxman doesn't know that they are here - one poor lady I know is very worried that this could cost her a lot of money in inheritance tax if her husband dies before her - he flatly refuses to register as resident, despite having lived here full time for more than 10 years 

there are also those who prefer to go back to the UK for medical treatment on the NHS there - totally fraudulently since they by no stretch of the imagination are resident in the UK (they ONLY go back for operations & appointments for said ops) ... but since they have never actually _registered _in Spain, they reckon they aren't actually resident here.... 

of course while in Spain they use their EHIC cards for day to day ailments.... again fraudulently - just wait til the day the computer spits the card out & they are handed a bill....

as for living without a NIE - I shop online a fair bit - it's rare that you can order without a NIE number - & before the correos would deliver this morning they wanted to see the NIE/residents cert......

some banks won't open a non-res account now without a NIE - & of course resident accounts actually cost less........

I could go on..............


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## Hombre62

Pesky Wesky said:


> It all depends on what you want to do in Spain. If you have children that need schooling, if you want to do any activity at the town hall, if you want to pay any bills from the town hall, if you want a car, if you want to work... all require an NIE number somewhere along the line. In many cases, but not all, you'll need an NIE number to just rent your accommodation


This ^^^^ is the circular argument. To do these things, you need money. If you have money for an apartment, a car, to pay bills, etc., you are demonstrably not a burden on the Spanish state. Therefore, there is no impediment to your obtaining legal residency.

*By definition, getting a job qualifies you for residency.


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## xabiaxica

Hombre62 said:


> This ^^^^ is the circular argument. To do these things, you need money. If you have money for an apartment, a car, to pay bills, etc., you are demonstrably not a burden on the Spanish state. Therefore, there is no impediment to your obtaining legal residency.
> 
> *By definition, getting a job qualifies you for residency.


so why not register as resident................ as so many seem to want to avoid.......


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> so why not register as resident................ as so many seem to want to avoid.......


Because so many seem to be "running away" from something or someone and would prefer to be non-traceable.


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## Megsmum

Here I go again with my twopenny worth.

We will be "early retirees" With income - NHS pensions and substantial savings etc etc.

Why on earth would we want to move to a foreign country and not register with the authorities, how can you honesty integrate with the local population, knowing that you are illegally there, forget under the radar, you are supposed to register, you are supposed to have declared tax returns etc, etc, It does not matter that some things have changes it is what it is. 

The issue is, as an outsider, and if I may be so bold as to say. Some people want their cake and to eat it!. Spain, France etc are not outposts of the UK, they are not counties, if you want the UK benefits then stay in the UK.

If you want and adventure, like us, then you accept the risks as they come. We cannot wait, yes we have fears, but these endless threads about what Spain can and cannot do are really repeating the same mantra.

We have no issue with registering and having to show our income... and, the thought of having to prove income, made us think more about the costs of living etc


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## Pesky Wesky

Hombre62 said:


> This ^^^^ is the circular argument. To do these things, you need money. If you have money for an apartment, a car, to pay bills, etc., you are demonstrably not a burden on the Spanish state. Therefore, there is no impediment to your obtaining legal residency.
> 
> *By definition, getting a job qualifies you for residency.


When talking about the vast majority of the people you're right, but there are always a number of people who don't pay their way and this law tries to prevent that happening.
Anyway, it matters little whether you/ I or whoever disagrees with it, 'cos that's the law that's in place and I for one am not going to Brussels to fight against it. I don't dislike it actually...


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## youngagepensioner

We were resident in Spain until December 2011.

We have the type of residencia card which does not have an expiry date on and says we are permanent residents. We never signed off the Padron (forgot).

Does this mean we could come back to live in Spain and just took up where we left off?

(Purely theoretical question).


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## Pesky Wesky

cambio said:


> Here I go again with my twopenny worth.
> 
> We will be "early retirees" With income - NHS pensions and substantial savings etc etc.
> 
> Why on earth would we want to move to a foreign country and not register with the authorities, how can you honesty integrate with the local population, knowing that you are illegally there, forget under the radar, you are supposed to register, you are supposed to have declared tax returns etc, etc, It does not matter that some things have changes it is what it is.
> 
> The issue is, as an outsider, and if I may be so bold as to say. Some people want their cake and to eat it!. Spain, France etc are not outposts of the UK, they are not counties, if you want the UK benefits then stay in the UK.
> 
> If you want and adventure, like us, then you accept the risks as they come. We cannot wait, yes we have fears, but these endless threads about what Spain can and cannot do are really repeating the same mantra.


As Cambio says, why on earth would you want to move to a foreign country and not register with the authorities?

Here's some more information - this time about the *Padrón* or *empadronamiento* process from here https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain#benefits-of-padrn-registration

*Who should register?*

It is obligatory by Spanish law to register on the padrón at the Town Hall where you habitually reside, yet many British ex-pats still have not done so. Perhaps some view the padrón as a means of vigilance by the state, in ‘big-brother’ fashion. However, in reality, it is simply a way for the town hall to know how many people live in their area, without entering into investigations as to a person’s official residence status or financial affairs.

*Benefits of padrón registration*

Once you’ve completed the simple process, you can begin to enjoy all the advantages being on the padrón offers, such as:
*Better public services*

*Access to benefits and social care*

*A reduction in taxes*

*Discounted travel*

*Voting rights*

*An easier life*

see here for more details

https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain#benefits-of-padrn-registration


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## baldilocks

Why would somebody not want to register? 
Why wouldn't they want to be on the Padron? 
Why would they want to be 'under the radar'?
To start with, - 

there are those who are trying to avoid CSA (or whatever it is called these days)
there are those running/hiding from a vengeful spouse,
there are those of the criminal fraternity who, while not on any police wanted lists, are wanted by their previous companions who believe they are owed something (money, loot, etc)
there are those who might have absconded from prison
there are those who might have run away with an under age person for whom they had a duty of care
there are those who suspect they might be wanted for some crime
there are those who while not making it onto Crimewatch's Most Wanted list are on a wanted list somewhere
there are embezzlers, confidence tricksters, petty thieves, petty criminals in general
etc. etc.
Anyone who wants to set that to Gilbert and Sullivan's "I've got a little List" wins a prize.

Since we have been here, at least two people have "disappeared" to be guests of HM Govt. one of the was a pædophile, the other we aren't sure why, but he was still driving around in his UK reg car which somebody spotted.

Does that answer the question?


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## gus-lopez

I was talking to a chap last friday who has been trying to register for years in Almeria. For some reason they refuse to do it even though he's had solicitors on the case. He has a child in the school system for the last 5 years. At one point he was told he could register here in Lorca & came armed with all documents , got all the way to the point of the certs. being printed when the lady said " Oh, you live in Huercal Overa, we can't register you as that's in Almeria." 
He said he then gave up. He'd made 5 separate attempts.


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> I was talking to a chap last friday who has been trying to register for years in Almeria. For some reason they refuse to do it even though he's had solicitors on the case. He has a child in the school system for the last 5 years. At one point he was told he could register here in Lorca & came armed with all documents , got all the way to the point of the certs. being printed when the lady said " Oh, you live in Huercal Overa, we can't register you as that's in Almeria."
> He said he then gave up. He'd made 5 separate attempts.


There's got to be something behind that if it's true. 5 years, 5 attempts and with a solicitor. Either the solitors cr*p, or there's a problem...


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## Nugget_Hound

Is it true you have to pay the govt 260 euros a month just to be self employed in Spain?


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> There's got to be something behind that if it's true. 5 years, 5 attempts and with a solicitor. Either the solitors cr*p, or there's a problem...


especially since, 5 years ago, there were no income & healthcare requirements

it was just a case of turn up & sign, pretty much


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## jojo

Nugget_Hound said:


> Is it true you have to pay the govt 260 euros a month just to be self employed in Spain?



Yes, but for that you get healthcover and will be paying towards a pension

Jo xxx


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## Nugget_Hound

That seems fairly expensive and also I honestly don't believe their will be a pension system in 25 years , the world will most likely be very different by then!


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## jojo

Nugget_Hound said:


> That seems fairly expensive and also I honestly don't believe their will be a pension system in 25 years , the world will most likely be very different by then!



Who knows, but to be autonomo/self employed you have to pay it - its not negotiable

Jo xx


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## Nugget_Hound

Just seems such a lot of money , I would imagine a lot of unemployed people would be put off by this?


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## jojo

Nugget_Hound said:


> Just seems such a lot of money , I would imagine a lot of unemployed people would be put off by this?



Probably, but the government are tightening up so theres no way around it - especially for foreigners. The silly thing is, its not even on a sliding scale - you could earn 10c or 10,00000€ and you pay the same!

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

Nugget_Hound said:


> Is it true you have to pay the govt 260 euros a month just to be self employed in Spain?


& it depends how old you are...

if you're a bit long in the tooth when you start paying, as many of us moving over will be, it's higher.... mines nearer 280€..... but for that I'll get a Spanish pension & right now it pays for healthcare for me & my daughters

tax is on top - but I get most of that back


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> & it depends how old you are...
> 
> if you're a bit long in the tooth when you start paying, as many of us moving over will be, it's higher.... mines nearer 280€..... but for that I'll get a Spanish pension & right now it pays for healthcare for me & my daughters
> 
> tax is on top - but I get most of that back


No, you'll get an EU pension if you previously worked in another EU country for at least 1 year. 
Eu pension rates mean the countries have to pay approx. 25% more than the basic rate .:clap2:


EU - Pension claims and calculation of EU pensions-Your Europe


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## baldilocks

Nugget_Hound said:


> Is it true you have to pay the govt 260 euros a month just to be self employed in Spain?


Yes, even if you only make €10 or even nothing.


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## Aron

What happens if you don't register after being in the country regularly for 6 months a year. Some people have no Idea the law of residency changed in 2007.


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## Hombre62

Aron said:


> What happens if you don't register after being in the country regularly for 6 months a year. Some people have no Idea the law of residency changed in 2007.


You can (in theory, at least) be fined. I've seen mention of a €300 penalty. That seems to be about it.


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## Overandout

Aron said:


> What happens if you don't register after being in the country regularly for 6 months a year. Some people have no Idea the law of residency changed in 2007.


It depends on your circumstances also.

I have mentioned before my colleague who has a permanent job, pays his IRPF, is empadronado, has his kids in school, has a Seguridad Social card and receives health care, has various vehicles, all transfered to his name leaglly, insured and taxed.

But he has never registered on the Registro de Extranjeros... he can't see why he should and I'm not capable of finding a good reason either (except the fact that the law says so!)


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## Hombre62

Overandout said:


> It depends on your circumstances also.
> 
> I have mentioned before my colleague who has a permanent job, pays his IRPF, is empadronado, has his kids in school, has a Seguridad Social card and receives health care, has various vehicles, all transfered to his name leaglly, insured and taxed.
> 
> But he has never registered on the Registro de Extranjeros... he can't see why he should and I'm not capable of finding a good reason either (except the fact that the law says so!)


As he's employed in Spain, the point is moot:



> RESIDENCIA SUPERIOR A TRES MESES
> 
> Los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea o de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo y de Suiza tienen derecho de residencia en territorio español por un período superior a tres meses si se encuentran en alguno de los siguientes supuestos:
> 
> Son trabajadores por cuenta ajena o por cuenta propia en España.
> 
> .....


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## Pesky Wesky

Hombre62 said:


> As he's employed in Spain, the point is moot:


I don't think it is a moot point.
You are required to register on the foreigners list working on not. One has nothing to do with the other.
This is Spanish law, not EU a recommendation, policy or whatever.
Whether it's logical, necessary or legal is another thing!


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## Pazcat

baldilocks said:


> Yes, even if you only make €10 or even nothing.





Nugget_Hound said:


> Is it true you have to pay the govt 260 euros a month just to be self employed in Spain?


I have a question regarding this, at what point are you legally considered self employed?

Is there a minimum amount you can do or sell before you are considered a trader?

What I mean is I can't imagine everybody who just wants to have a clear out and sell a heap of things on ebay or segunda mano have to register.
And likewise what about hobbyists who may build a few things a year and sell a couple of pieces or photgraphers who may sell pictures on a website but don't really sell many.
It's hardly an income.


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## zenkarma

This is a useful thread full of good information.

I have a couple of questions I'd appreciate some answers to if anyone knows the answers.

I've been considering spending some extended periods of time in the Spanish flat and according to the information here if I spend longer than 3 months there I should register.

Let's say for examples sake I'd like to spend 5 months at the flat next year. I should go and register and prove I have sufficient income, not a problem and healthcare provision. Is it possible to just buy 5 months of healthcare cover to cover the period I am out there?

Having registered and spent my 5 months there and intend to return to the UK and not wanting in any way shape or form to be caught up in their fiscal tax residency, do I then de-register and cancel my health policy?

Then go through the whole process again the following year if I want to spend another 5 months there?


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## thrax

As far as I know, once you have gone through the registration process, that's it, you don't have to do it again. Avoiding the 183 day rule gets you out of tax nightmares etc. There are some private health schemes where you can temporarily stop them whilst you are not in the country.


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## zenkarma

thrax said:


> As far as I know, once you have gone through the registration process, that's it, you don't have to do it again. Avoiding the 183 day rule gets you out of tax nightmares etc.


Thanks for your reply.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you expand on this a little?

So if I don't de-register, is the onus now on me to continually prove to the Hacienda year after year that I am not in Spain for more than 183 days a year?

This is why I'm loathe to register into their system. It may simply mean that I either don't spend more than 3 months at a time there or I risk a fine by not registering when I'm staying there for more than 3 months but less than 6.



thrax said:


> There are some private health schemes where you can temporarily stop them whilst you are not in the country.


That's useful to know thank you.

Presumably you then simply reactivate the insurance when you re-enter the country?


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## xabiaxica

zenkarma said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you expand on this a little?
> 
> So if I don't de-register, is the onus now on me to continually prove to the Hacienda year after year that I am not in Spain for more than 183 days a year?
> 
> This is why I'm loathe to register into their system. It may simply mean that I either don't spend more than 3 months at a time there or I risk a fine by not registering when I'm staying there for more than 3 months but less than 6.
> 
> 
> 
> That's useful to know thank you.
> 
> Presumably you then simply reactivate the insurance when you re-enter the country?


most people in your position wouldn't register

it does say 'if you intend to live here permanently' (or words to that effect) in the requirements - & you don't

you would need private healthcare though, because after 3 months you are no longer 'considered' to be on holiday so shouldn't be using the EHIC

registration is a formality, which has no legal affect on your status - so if you are going to be in & out a bit it's best to keep proof of your movements, just in case the tax man decides to look into what you are up to

for anyone actually intending to live here permanently, they really DO need to register as required - for one thing, it's becoming more & more difficult to live here without that green paper/card


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## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> for one thing, it's becoming more & more difficult to live here without that green paper/card


Is it ? I won't come up your way then .


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## CapnBilly

xabiachica said:


> most people in your position wouldn't register
> 
> it does say 'if you intend to live here permanently' (or words to that effect) in the requirements - & you don'td



Actually, I think it says " where you intend to stay or take up residence", which I think is slightly different from " if you intend to live here permanently"



xabiachica said:


> for anyone actually intending to live here permanently, they really DO need to register as required - for one thing, it's becoming more & more difficult to live here without that green paper/card


Although i know it won't make any difference, under Article 25 of the EU Directive, they're not allowed to ask you for the certificate.

"1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof"


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## baldilocks

CapnBilly said:


> Actually, I think it says " where you intend to stay or take up residence", which I think is slightly different from " if you intend to live here permanently"
> 
> 
> 
> Although i know it won't make any difference, under Article 25 of the EU Directive, they're not allowed to ask you for the certificate.
> 
> "1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof"


*WILL EVERYONE PLEASE PAY ATTENTION:*
It doesn't matter one whit what it says in any EU Directive.

The purpose of a Directive is to state what the EU *would like* member states to do (it does not compel) and in order to do that, each member state has to enact its own legislation and it is that state's legislation which says what will happen in that state. Each state takes note of which, if any, provisions in the Directive it will include in its own legislation. If any state decides to opt out of all or any of the provisions, it can do so while still responding to/complying with the Directive.

Two prime examples are the Health and Safety at Work and the Working Time Directives - what is enacted by and for use in the UK is not the same as that in France or Germany or in Spain yet they all comply with the Directive.


----------



## CapnBilly

baldilocks said:


> WILL EVERYONE PLEASE PAY ATTENTION:
> It doesn't matter one whit what it says in any EU Directive.
> 
> The purpose of a Directive is to state what the EU would like member states to do (it does not compel) and in order to do that, each member state has to enact its own legislation and it is that state's legislation which says what will happen in that state. Each state takes note of which, if any, provisions in the Directive it will include in its own legislation. If any state decides to opt out of all or any of the provisions, it can do so while still responding to/complying with the Directive.
> 
> Two prime examples are the Health and Safety at Work and the Working Time Directives - what is enacted by and for use in the UK is not the same as that in France or Germany or in Spain yet they all comply with the Directive.


That not my understanding of EU Directives.

What is a directive?

EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these goals, but are free to decide how to do so. Directives may concern one or more EU countries, or all of them.

Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines necessary to take account of differing national situations.

Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, and are particularly common in matters that affect the operation of the single market (e.g. product safety standards).

I accept that not all countries implement Directives properly, and in fact, the report concerning 2004/38 says

The responsibility for ensuring that the Directive is transposed and implemented correctly and that EU citizens are informed of their rights lies with the Member States. The failure to transpose certain provisions at all or in part is producing situations of legal uncertainty which may result in the adoption of legislative or administrative solutions that could impair the rights of EU citizens and their family members.
The Commission will step up its efforts to ensure that the Directive is correctly transposed and implemented across the EU. In order to achieve this result, the Commission will use fully its powers under the Treaty and launch infringement proceedings when necessary. Priority will be given to the most serious problems identified in Chapter 4 of this Report.


I did say, i knew it didn't make any difference, but the point I was making, is that it wasn't the intention.

PS i don't think it's necessary to write in block capitals.


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## Pesky Wesky

EU directives
*What are EU directives?*
EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these goals,* but are free to decide how to do so*. Directives may concern* one or more Member States, or all of them.*

Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - *giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines *necessary to take account of differing national situations.

Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, and are particularly common in matters affecting the operation of the single market (e.g. product safety standards). 

Bold is my addition
Application of EU law - European Commission

See also EU Law, EU regulations etc


----------



## baldilocks

CapnBilly said:


> That not my understanding of EU Directives.
> 
> What is a directive?
> 
> EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these goals, but are free to decide how to do so. Directives may concern one or more EU countries, or all of them.
> 
> Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines necessary to take account of differing national situations.
> 
> Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, and are particularly common in matters that affect the operation of the single market (e.g. product safety standards).
> 
> I accept that not all countries implement Directives properly, and in fact, the report concerning 2004/38 says
> 
> The responsibility for ensuring that the Directive is transposed and implemented correctly and that EU citizens are informed of their rights lies with the Member States. The failure to transpose certain provisions at all or in part is producing situations of legal uncertainty which may result in the adoption of legislative or administrative solutions that could impair the rights of EU citizens and their family members.
> The Commission will step up its efforts to ensure that the Directive is correctly transposed and implemented across the EU. In order to achieve this result, the Commission will use fully its powers under the Treaty and launch infringement proceedings when necessary. Priority will be given to the most serious problems identified in Chapter 4 of this Report.
> 
> 
> I did say, i knew it didn't make any difference, but the point I was making, is that it wasn't the intention.
> 
> PS i don't think it's necessary to write in block capitals.


The caps were there because we have to keep repeating this to people who are under the impression that a EU Directive is a law when it isn't.

As for the compulsion to enact the law as it appears in the Directive. with all things EU there are opt-outs available to the member states.


----------



## CapnBilly

baldilocks said:


> The caps were there because we have to keep repeating this to people who are under the impression that a EU Directive is a law when it isn't.
> 
> As for the compulsion to enact the law as it appears in the Directive. with all things EU there are opt-outs available to the member states.


I am aware they are not a law, but an intention. Unfortunately, as with lots of things in the EU, the intention is good, but the implementation is poor. So, my point was, the intention is that it should not be necessary to produce the certificate, but, as with lots of things, Spain has ignored this. We'll all be pushing up daisies by the time its implemented properly.


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## gus-lopez

Whilst you are correct, with the "directives" the idea is that they are enacted as transposed. 
If a country fails to do so , any complaint to the EU via the solvit or assistance method will result in a "decision". Any "decision" is legally binding making any variation from a " directive" illegal. 
A "decision" has already been enforced against Spain regarding the requests for the certificate.


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## CapnBilly

gus-lopez said:


> Whilst you are correct, with the "directives" the idea is that they are enacted as transposed.
> If a country fails to do so , any complaint to the EU via the solvit or assistance method will result in a "decision". Any "decision" is legally binding making any variation from a " directive" illegal.
> A "decision" has already been enforced against Spain regarding the requests for the certificate.


Interesting. Where are details located Gus, i checked on the Solvit site, but i couldn't se anything


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## gus-lopez

CapnBilly said:


> Interesting. Where are details located Gus, i checked on the Solvit site, but i couldn't se anything


No, you'd have to delve through the 'EU adjudications ' to find it.
It was reported as having been adjudicated on towards the end of last year in the 'Murcia Today' website/forum.


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## Kerry UK

*So should I or shouldn't I?*

My head is spinning!

I really do appreciate everyone who contributes advice to this website, as it had been my main source of information about my planned move to Spain.

I am terribly confused about the residence requirements. I am intending to come to Spain in November, stay a few weeks and look for long term rented accommodation on Costa Blanca. I was intending to get my NIE number during that stay. I then thought, when I moved into a rental, that I would apply for my residence certificate, or whatever it is called. I have a pension of around £600 per month, plus a good amount of savings, and I intend to take out private medical insurance.

I have just been talking to my neighbour in the UK, who also has a house in Torrevieja, which he and his wife visit for holidays. His neighbours in Spain live there for most of the year. When I was telling him of my plans to get my NIE number, and then residence, he said that would be a bad idea - that hardly anyone bothers with that! I am astonished - I just really want to do things the right way - is there any reason why I shouldn't apply for my NIE number or residence?

I have tried to read through this thread to find out, but it got a bit complicated for me so I thought it might be better if I just asked the question directly. Thank you again for your advice.

Kerry


----------



## baldilocks

Kerry UK said:


> My head is spinning!
> 
> I really do appreciate everyone who contributes advice to this website, as it had been my main source of information about my planned move to Spain.
> 
> I am terribly confused about the residence requirements. I am intending to come to Spain in November, stay a few weeks and look for long term rented accommodation on Costa Blanca. I was intending to get my NIE number during that stay. I then thought, when I moved into a rental, that I would apply for my residence certificate, or whatever it is called. I have a pension of around £600 per month, plus a good amount of savings, and I intend to take out private medical insurance.
> 
> I have just been talking to my neighbour in the UK, who also has a house in Torrevieja, which he and his wife visit for holidays. His neighbours in Spain live there for most of the year. When I was telling him of my plans to get my NIE number, and then residence, he said that would be a bad idea - that hardly anyone bothers with that! I am astonished - I just really want to do things the right way - is there any reason why I shouldn't apply for my NIE number or residence?
> 
> I have tried to read through this thread to find out, but it got a bit complicated for me so I thought it might be better if I just asked the question directly. Thank you again for your advice.
> 
> Kerry


Hi Kerry
So you want to play by the rules - others want to cheat. They would probably be among the first to complain if immigrants to the UK wanted to do the same. Our advice is to stay within the rule's requirements - it helps you to sleep more soundly.


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## Kerry UK

Thank you, I have seen your advice to others on here and I trust what you say. Also, that was my own gut feeling, I can't see any reason why I shouldn't play by the rules. Unless it was about getting medical treatment on the EHIC card - and I don't think that would really work anyway, as it's just for emergency treatment.

Thanks again for your advice, I do feel better doing things by the book.


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## zenkarma

Kerry UK said:


> ...is there any reason why I shouldn't apply for my NIE number or residence?


Here might be a good reason.

Would you like to pay Spanish tax on your £600 a month income? £600 x 12 = £7,200 or €8,496 a year. The current single persons allowance is €5,050 before you pay any tax. 8,496 - 5,050 = €3,446 taxable income at 24.75% = €852.88.

Kerching, that's €852.88 a year income tax to the Spanish Hacienda please.

Not so good is it?

You may or may not have to pay income tax on that pension income depending on where it comes from. If you are a resident in Spain for more than 183 days a year you will become a Spanish fiscal tax resident and you will be liable for Spanish taxes.

My advice to you is to try it out for a few months and see if you like it. Spend up to 6 months there without registering, but if you intend to stay longer than 6 months you need to make a decision on whether to register as a resident and become liable for Spanish taxes.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Kerry UK said:


> My head is spinning!
> 
> I really do appreciate everyone who contributes advice to this website, as it had been my main source of information about my planned move to Spain.
> 
> I am terribly confused about the residence requirements. I am intending to come to Spain in November, stay a few weeks and look for long term rented accommodation on Costa Blanca. I was intending to get my NIE number during that stay. I then thought, when I moved into a rental, that I would apply for my residence certificate, or whatever it is called. I have a pension of around £600 per month, plus a good amount of savings, and I intend to take out private medical insurance.
> 
> I have just been talking to my neighbour in the UK, who also has a house in Torrevieja, which he and his wife visit for holidays. His neighbours in Spain live there for most of the year. When I was telling him of my plans to get my NIE number, and then residence, he said that would be a bad idea - that hardly anyone bothers with that! I am astonished - I just really want to do things the right way - is there any reason why I shouldn't apply for my NIE number or residence?
> 
> I have tried to read through this thread to find out, but it got a bit complicated for me so I thought it might be better if I just asked the question directly. Thank you again for your advice.
> 
> Kerry


There are loads of reasons as to why you should sign on the Padrón and none for not doing so. People who don't are probably misinformed or unaware of what's behind the padrón. Here are some of the reasons


> Basically, the more people in the ‘padrón’, the more money the town hall receives. It is in fact estimated that €150 are given for every resident. With a recorded overall population of 63,700, there are more than 17,300 foreigners living in the Andalucian town of Benalmadena.
> Out of those, around 35 per cent are British nationals. The town hall was reported that some 7,000 foreigners required renewing their ‘padrón’ (municipal register). If we do the maths, it is €1,050,000 what it is at stake for Benalmadena.


Why do I need to join the



> So why should you sign up to the muncipal register even if you are not a not a home owner? Here are some of the benefits you will have;
> · Register with doctor
> · Have the right to vote in the local and European elections
> · Have access to free or discounted activities
> · Free or reduced cost Spanish classes
> · Register kids at school
> · Help and support for the elderly
> · Reduction in bus fares
> · Tax reductions on certain services such as rubbish collection


Why Sign Up To The Padron? | HomeRentalontheWeb

Couldn't find anything on more official sites. I believe there's something on FCO but couldn't see it. Anyway, the above sums it up, so as you can see, your neighbour's attitude is not very helpful, neither for him nor the area. I wonder if he pays the local council taxes on his house could you'd need to be registered for that, wouldn't you???


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> There are loads of reasons as to why you should sign on the Padrón and none for not doing so. People who don't are probably misinformed or unaware of what's behind the padrón. Here are some of the reasons
> 
> Why do I need to join the
> 
> 
> Why Sign Up To The Padron? | HomeRentalontheWeb
> 
> Couldn't find anything on more official sites. I believe there's something on FCO but couldn't see it. Anyway, the above sums it up, so as you can see, your neighbour's attitude is not very helpful, neither for him nor the area. I wonder if he pays the local council taxes on his house could you'd need to be registered for that, wouldn't you???


Another one is "To buy a Car" The vehicle will be registered to your address as on the Padron and that will determine the rate of vehicle tax you pay each year.


----------



## baldilocks

zenkarma said:


> Here might be a good reason.
> 
> Would you like to pay Spanish tax on your £600 a month income? £600 x 12 = £7,200 or €8,496 a year. The current single persons allowance is €5,050 before you pay any tax. 8,496 - 5,050 = €3,446 taxable income at 24.75% = €852.88.
> 
> Kerching, that's €852.88 a year income tax to the Spanish Hacienda please.
> 
> Not so good is it?
> 
> You may or may not have to pay income tax on that pension income depending on where it comes from. If you are a resident in Spain for more than 183 days a year you will become a Spanish fiscal tax resident and you will be liable for Spanish taxes.
> 
> My advice to you is to try it out for a few months and see if you like it. Spend up to 6 months there without registering, but if you intend to stay longer than 6 months you need to make a decision on whether to register as a resident and become liable for Spanish taxes.



That is *RUBBISH*

An NIE and registering for Residencia which you must do within 90 days of your arrival has absolutely nothing to to with Tax Residency which you do not have to sign up for and is automatic as soon as you have been here for more than 183 days in a tax year (Jan-Dec). It is also cumulative so if you think that you can get away with it by only being here from Jan- June and then come for another month or more, then you are tax resident for that year. You would be liable for tax on your Worldwide income but you can offset any tax you have paid in another country that has tax agreements with Spain. You would not be liable to submit a tax return unless your income was much much higher (about €20k) that you will be receiving.


----------



## xabiaxica

zenkarma said:


> Here might be a good reason.
> 
> Would you like to pay Spanish tax on your £600 a month income? £600 x 12 = £7,200 or €8,496 a year. The current single persons allowance is €5,050 before you pay any tax. 8,496 - 5,050 = €3,446 taxable income at 24.75% = €852.88.
> 
> Kerching, that's €852.88 a year income tax to the Spanish Hacienda please.
> 
> Not so good is it?
> 
> You may or may not have to pay income tax on that pension income depending on where it comes from. If you are a resident in Spain for more than 183 days a year you will become a Spanish fiscal tax resident and you will be liable for Spanish taxes.
> 
> My advice to you is to try it out for a few months and see if you like it. Spend up to 6 months there without registering, but if you intend to stay longer than 6 months you need to make a decision on whether to register as a resident and become liable for Spanish taxes.


getting a NIE number &/or registering as resident have *nothing *to do with being tax resident

you can do both & never be tax resident - the triggers are totally different & separate

in fact, you can have a NIE number & never even set foot in Spain




edit - note to self - read all replies before posting............... I see baldi already said the pretty much the same...............


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## rewdan

out of interest, if income is less than 20k and you don't need to make a tax return, how do they collect the tax, eg a Uk rental income of 18k, some tax paid in the Uk but with the difference in personal allowances, a balance may be due in Spain?


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## CapnBilly

zenkarma said:


> Here might be a good reason.
> 
> Would you like to pay Spanish tax on your £600 a month income? £600 x 12 = £7,200 or 8,496 a year. The current single persons allowance is 5,050 before you pay any tax. 8,496 - 5,050 = 3,446 taxable income at 24.75% = 852.88.
> 
> Kerching, that's 852.88 a year income tax to the Spanish Hacienda please.


Err, think you need a new calculator. If your income is €8496, then you get a personal allowance of €5151 AND earned income allowance of €4080, so thats tax of err €0 to the Hacienda.


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## zenkarma

CapnBilly said:


> Err, think you need a new calculator. If your income is €8496, then you get a personal allowance of €5151 AND earned income allowance of €4080, so thats tax of err €0 to the Hacienda.


Ahh! Thank you for correcting me. I didn't realise the earned income allowance applied to pension income, but having checked it, you are quite correct, it does.

Nevertheless, the advice given remains valid—check on the tax situation before taking those types of decisions.


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## xabiaxica

zenkarma said:


> Ahh! Thank you for correcting me. I didn't realise the earned income allowance applied to pension income, but having checked it, you are quite correct, it does.
> 
> Nevertheless, the advice given remains valid—check on the tax situation before taking those types of decisions.


yes, check before taking the decision to stay long enough to become_* tax resident*_


which, as stated, has *nothing to do with registering as resident, nor getting a NIE number.........*


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## Alcalaina

rewdan said:


> out of interest, if income is less than 20k and you _don't need to make a tax return_, ...


You should do a tax return in Spain, even if you are below the threshold and don't owe any tax. 

Apart from anything else, if you are on prescription meds the price is determined by your declared income - it can make a big difference. 

You can also get refunds on tax withheld by banks on savings interest. 

It cost me €20 for the gestor to do it and I got nearly €300 paid back into my account within a month.


----------



## zenkarma

xabiachica said:


> yes, check before taking the decision to stay long enough to become_* tax resident*_
> which, as stated, has *nothing to do with registering as resident, nor getting a NIE number.........*


Okay, let's get a few things clear.

Firstly, this is all about how long you plan on staying for and secondly whether you want to enter the Spanish system or not. Those are essentially the questions being asked. There are no easy answers and it all depends on an individuals circumstances.

Knowing just how incompetent, corrupt, bureaucratic and greedy the Spanish system is no-one with half a brain-cell would give them any information they don't need to know let alone willingly enter their system if they can avoid doing so. The less information the Spanish authorities know about you the safer you will be.

That's the first point.

NIE number. An NIE number is to all intents and purposes a tax number. You need one and they give you one for the sole purpose of paying taxes in Spain. That's why you need one if you intend on purchasing a property, boat, car etc because you may become liable for capital gains tax or some other tax the Hacienda can come up with to do you for. 

If you are not paying taxes in Spain you do not need an NIE number.

That's the second point.

Registering as a resident. There are no advantages to the individual whatsoever from registering as a resident beyond complying to the requirements for EU nationals from the Spanish government that they must do so if they intend on residing in the country beyond three months. Unless you are in receipt of a UK government state pension in which case the Spanish authorities, much against their will, will have to give you free state healthcare on registering.

For everyone else who registers you enter the nightmare world of Spanish bureaucracy and form filling and must fulfill two requirements: you must take out your own private health insurance and you must prove you have sufficient income to support yourself whilst resident there.

For doing this, you get no benefits whatsoever beyond being able to vote for a bunch of equally corrupt Spanish political parties come election time.

If you're resident in Spain beyond 183 days (effectively 6 months) you de facto become a Spanish fiscal tax resident whether you've registered as a resident or not. You will then need an NIE number and you will need to file tax returns.

That's the third point.

So ultimately the decision to register or not, to get an NIE number or not all comes down to how long the individual plans to stay in Spain.

For anyone going to stay in Spain for the first time and isn't sure whether they will like it there or not would be far better off delaying these registration processes until the time points mentioned are reached and a decision has been made on ultimately how long they intend on staying for.

I think that's it in a nutshell!


----------



## xabiaxica

zenkarma said:


> Okay, let's get a few things clear.
> 
> Firstly, this is all about how long you plan on staying for and secondly whether you want to enter the Spanish system or not. Those are essentially the questions being asked. There are no easy answers and it all depends on an individuals circumstances.
> 
> Knowing just how incompetent, corrupt, bureaucratic and greedy the Spanish system is no-one with half a brain-cell would give them any information they don't need to know let alone willingly enter their system if they can avoid doing so. The less information the Spanish authorities know about you the safer you will be.
> 
> That's the first point.
> 
> NIE number. An NIE number is to all intents and purposes a tax number. You need one and they give you one for the sole purpose of paying taxes in Spain. That's why you need one if you intend on purchasing a property, boat, car etc because you may become liable for capital gains tax or some other tax the Hacienda can come up with to do you for.
> 
> If you are not paying taxes in Spain you do not need an NIE number.
> 
> That's the second point.
> 
> Registering as a resident. There are no advantages to the individual whatsoever from registering as a resident beyond complying to the requirements for EU nationals from the Spanish government that they must do so if they intend on residing in the country beyond three months. Unless you are in receipt of a UK government state pension in which case the Spanish authorities, much against their will, will have to give you free state healthcare on registering.
> 
> For everyone else who registers you enter the nightmare world of Spanish bureaucracy and form filling and must fulfill two requirements: you must take out your own private health insurance and you must prove you have sufficient income to support yourself whilst resident there.
> 
> For doing this, you get no benefits whatsoever beyond being able to vote for a bunch of equally corrupt Spanish political parties come election time.
> 
> If you're resident in Spain beyond 183 days (effectively 6 months) you de facto become a Spanish fiscal tax resident whether you've registered as a resident or not. You will then need an NIE number and you will need to file tax returns.
> 
> That's the third point.
> 
> So ultimately the decision to register or not, to get an NIE number or not all comes down to how long the individual plans to stay in Spain.
> 
> For anyone going to stay in Spain for the first time and isn't sure whether they will like it there or not would be far better off delaying these registration processes until the time points mentioned are reached and a decision has been made on ultimately how long they intend on staying for.
> 
> I think that's it in a nutshell!


I'll say it again - having a NIE number has nothing to do with residency - one thing you have missed out is the need for a NIE in order to inherit property - simply applying for a NIE number doesn't make you tax resident or liable to declare worldwide assets & income as a tax resident


registering as resident - or deciding not to - doesn't make any difference either - if you're here for 90 consecutive days you simply *are *resident - & again, *that *doesn't make you tax resident or liable to declare worldwide assets & income as a tax resident, either

as for healthcare - once you've been here 3 months consecutively you lose the right to use the EHIC, so you need private healthcare or access to the Spanish state system anyway - so whether you want to register as resident or not is moot & neither here nor there

& you don't have to have a pension - you have to prove that you are financially self-sufficient - & if you're not able to prove that, I for one would question the wisdom of coming here in the first place..........


----------



## extranjero

baldilocks said:


> That is *RUBBISH*
> 
> An NIE and registering for Residencia which you must do within 90 days of your arrival has absolutely nothing to to with Tax Residency which you do not have to sign up for and is automatic as soon as you have been here for more than 183 days in a tax year (Jan-Dec). It is also cumulative so if you think that you can get away with it by only being here from Jan- June and then come for another month or more, then you are tax resident for that year. You would be liable for tax on your Worldwide income but you can offset any tax you have paid in another country that has tax agreements with Spain. You would not be liable to submit a tax return unless your income was much much higher (about €20k) that you will be receiving.


Sorry you are misinformed;the bit about not being liable to submit a tax return if you earn less than 20000e (actually it's 22,000 e) is wrong . This only applies to:
People whose income is all from one source and is already taxed at source.
People who are not eligible for the double taxation treaty 
Therefore not applicable to ex pats and early retirees!
I am surprised Capn Billy did not pick this up.
The correct tax thresholds and allowances have already been mentioned on this forum-much much less than the 22,000. wouldn't it be lovely to have this threshold?
Anybody who has been misinformed about this by a gestor or accountant, and has not been making tax returns needs to see someone who knows what they are talking about, as they are not complying with the tax laws. 

I've known many expats who have been wrongly advised, including myself. They are walking about in a fools paradise, thinking their tax affairs are fine.Usually the advisers are people not familiar with UK taxes and DTT.


----------



## Kerry UK

Thank you all for your replies. I'm intending to move permanently, and even if it doesn't work out as well as I hope it will, I want to give it at least a year. My works pension is from the UK Civil Service and is taxed at source, and I understand won't be taxable in Spain because of an agreement between UK and Spain governments. I'm going to take out private health insurance in Spain, until I receive my UK state pension.


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## xabiaxica

Kerry UK said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I'm intending to move permanently, and even if it doesn't work out as well as I hope it will, I want to give it at least a year. My works pension is from the UK Civil Service and is taxed at source, and I understand won't be taxable in Spain because of an agreement between UK and Spain governments. I'm going to take out private health insurance in Spain, until I receive my UK state pension.


if you've only recently stopped work then you might qualify for an S1 which would give you access to state healthcare here for a limited period - contact the DWP & ask them


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## Kerry UK

xabiachica said:


> if you've only recently stopped work then you might qualify for an S1 which would give you access to state healthcare here for a limited period - contact the DWP & ask them


Thanks, I will check that out, definitely.


----------



## zenkarma

baldilocks said:


> That is *RUBBISH*
> 
> You would not be liable to submit a tax return unless your income was much much higher (about €20k) that you will be receiving.


You should check your own facts Baldilocks before you start spouting that other people are writing rubbish. Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

I accept and have stated so that my personal allowance figure and earned income allowance figure was wrong.

Your own facts are also incorrect.

The €20,000 limit you state for not having to submit a tax return only applies to income earnt and taxed at source by an employer -

Allowable levels of income before a declaration must be made:

*Earned income already subject to employer deductions €22.000*
(and other income less than 1.500€)
Reduced limit if earned from more than one employer* €10.200
Bank interest and other investment income €1.600
Rent €1.000​Otherwise everyone has to make a tax return-

Most foreigners will be considered Spanish tax resident if they were in the country for 183 or more days. They must complete a tax declaration including all their worldwide income unless their income is lower than the thresholds described. *Anyone becoming tax resident for the first time (because they moved to Spain during the current year) must file a tax declaration regardless of income levels.*​
I also did not state that obtaining an NIE or becoming resident would make you a fiscal tax resident I think you'll find.

My point was and remains in answer to the OP's question that tax issues need to be considered if they're planning on staying there for a prolonged period of time (ie longer than 183 days) _regardless_ of whether they apply for an NIE or become resident.


----------



## zenkarma

Kerry UK said:


> My works pension is from the UK Civil Service and is taxed at source, and I understand won't be taxable in Spain because of an agreement between UK and Spain governments.


As far as I understand it this only applies to the UK _state_ pension. I'm not sure it applies to occupational pension schemes such as the civil service one. You'll need to check on this.

In any case it seems your income from this pension would not put you above the necessary threshold for paying Spanish tax. 

Just because it's taxed at source in the UK does not mean it won't be subject to tax in Spain either.


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## extranjero

zenkarma said:


> You should check your own facts Baldilocks before you start spouting that other people are writing rubbish. Talk about pot calling the kettle black!
> 
> I accept and have stated so that my personal allowance figure and earned income allowance figure was wrong.
> 
> Your own facts are also incorrect.
> 
> The €20,000 limit you state for not having to submit a tax return only applies to income earnt and taxed at source by an employer -
> 
> Allowable levels of income before a declaration must be made:
> 
> *Earned income already subject to employer deductions €22.000*
> (and other income less than 1.500€)
> Reduced limit if earned from more than one employer* €10.200
> Bank interest and other investment income €1.600
> Rent €1.000​Otherwise everyone has to make a tax return-
> 
> Most foreigners will be considered Spanish tax resident if they were in the country for 183 or more days. They must complete a tax declaration including all their worldwide income unless their income is lower than the thresholds described. *Anyone becoming tax resident for the first time (because they moved to Spain during the current year) must file a tax declaration regardless of income levels.*​
> I also did not state that obtaining an NIE or becoming resident would make you a fiscal tax resident I think you'll find.
> 
> My point was and remains in answer to the OP's question that tax issues need to be considered if they're planning on staying there for a prolonged period of time (ie longer than 183 days) _regardless_ of whether they apply for an NIE or become resident.


I'm surprised Baldilocks gave the wrong info on allowances as he has been in Spain a long time-hope he han't applied these thresholds to his own income!


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## CapnBilly

zenkarma said:


> As far as I understand it this only applies to the UK state pension. I'm not sure it applies to occupational pension schemes such as the civil service one. You'll need to check on this.
> 
> In any case it seems your income from this pension would not put you above the necessary threshold for paying Spanish tax.
> 
> Just because it's taxed at source in the UK does not mean it won't be subject to tax in Spain either.


 No, it's the other way round. The state pension is taxable in Spain, a civil service pension can only be taxed in the UK. Having said that , under the new DTA that is not yet in force, they can take it into account when working out your marginal rate. Whether you will pay any more, will depend on your total income, and income taxable in Spain


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## CapnBilly

extranjero said:


> Sorry you are misinformed;the bit about not being liable to submit a tax return if you earn less than 20000e (actually it's 22,000 e) is wrong .
> 
> I am surprised Capn Billy did not pick this up.
> The correct tax thresholds and allowances have already been mentioned on this forum-much much less than the 22,000. wouldn't it be lovely to have this threshold?.


I didn't have time to reply as I was painting my terrace bars, and only stopped for a quick coffee. My boss is a slave driver. Only just finished.


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## extranjero

Baldilocks-you are strangely quiet!


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## baldilocks

extranjero said:


> Baldilocks-you are strangely quiet!


Have been very busy involved with the translation of some poetical works for a Spanish lady of some note. Three of us have been working on it and translating poetry while still retaining the original meaning is a b*gger.

I admit that there was an error in the figures:
"You would not be liable to submit a tax return unless your income was much much higher (about €20k) that you will be receiving."

However, my comments about the NIE, residency and tax residency were quite correct unless you plan, as some suggest, to live below the radar like common criminals!


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## Megsmum

at what level does tax kick in? Couple x


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## extranjero

cambio said:


> at what level does tax kick in? Couple x


Cambio-see page 7, also post on Pension-explains thresholds etc.
Baldilocks-as I said before, hope you didn't apply those incorrect thresholds to your own pension, as you believed they were right all these years!


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## Clarita

Hi,

I've been having a look through this thread and while I've read lots of great info I still have a question which I'm not quite sure of the answer to... 

I studied in Spain in 2010 during which I registered for Residencia. I still have my green residencia certificate. However, I only stayed in Spain for 6 months and then moved back home. So, do I need to renew my residencia now that I'm back here for work or just sign up for the Padron? From what I've read, I know that my NIE is still valid so I don't need to worry about that but the residencia I currently have says my address is in Valladolid when in actual fact I'm based in Marbella right now. 

I'm also hoping to open a bank account and was going to use my residencia as proof of my NIE. Do you think I would need to provide additional proof of my current address? 

Will likely pop into the police station tomorrow to ask about it but I thought I'd try here first and see if anyone has had a similar experience to me...

Cheers,
Claire


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## snikpoh

Clarita said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been having a look through this thread and while I've read lots of great info I still have a question which I'm not quite sure of the answer to...
> 
> I studied in Spain in 2010 during which I registered for Residencia. I still have my green residencia certificate. However, I only stayed in Spain for 6 months and then moved back home. So, do I need to renew my residencia now that I'm back here for work or just sign up for the Padron? From what I've read, I know that my NIE is still valid so I don't need to worry about that but the residencia I currently have says my address is in Valladolid when in actual fact I'm based in Marbella right now.
> 
> I'm also hoping to open a bank account and was going to use my residencia as proof of my NIE. Do you think I would need to provide additional proof of my current address?
> 
> Will likely pop into the police station tomorrow to ask about it but I thought I'd try here first and see if anyone has had a similar experience to me...
> 
> Cheers,
> Claire


Hi Claire,

Your profile would suggest that you are Australian - if that's the case then I suspect you can't renew your 'residencia' unless you have an updated visa first.

If you are originally from the EU then my advice would be to use your existing residencia, get on the padron and use that to set up a bank account.

At some later date, you can then think about updating the address on your 'residencia'.


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## Clarita

snikpoh said:


> Hi Claire,
> 
> Your profile would suggest that you are Australian - if that's the case then I suspect you can't renew your 'residencia' unless you have an updated visa first.
> 
> If you are originally from the EU then my advice would be to use your existing residencia, get on the padron and use that to set up a bank account.
> 
> At some later date, you can then think about updating the address on your 'residencia'.


Hi Snikpoh

Thanks for the swift response. Though I'm Australian my Mum is Irish so I hold an Irish passport. As such obviously I don't need a visa. Forgot to mention this. 

Will pop to the town hall tomorrow to ask about the padron. 

Thanks again,

Claire


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## snikpoh

Clarita said:


> Hi Snikpoh
> 
> Thanks for the swift response. Though I'm Australian my Mum is Irish so I hold an Irish passport. As such obviously I don't need a visa. Forgot to mention this.
> 
> Will pop to the town hall tomorrow to ask about the padron.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Claire


For the padron you will require a rental contract (or the property deeds if you own a property) plus lots more I'm sure.


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## Clarita

snikpoh said:


> For the padron you will require a rental contract (or the property deeds if you own a property) plus lots more I'm sure.


That should make things fun. Haven't actually met my landlord yet. Organised to rent my room through one of the housemates so I'll have to make enquiries about a rental contract. Gotta love going through the formalities. Sorry for the easy question but is signing up for the padron the same deal as with residencia - that is needs to be done within 3 months of arrival?


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## Clarita

Also, obviously signing up for the padron is the thing to do but what would happen if I didn't sign up?


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## xabiaxica

Clarita said:


> That should make things fun. Haven't actually met my landlord yet. Organised to rent my room through one of the housemates so I'll have to make enquiries about a rental contract. Gotta love going through the formalities. Sorry for the easy question but is signing up for the padron the same deal as with residencia - that is needs to be done within 3 months of arrival?


you should really register on the padrón whenever you move & as soon as possible after you meove - it's totally separate to registering as resident - all you need is your passport (best use the Irish one) & rental contract (in your case) - & photocopies of course!!


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## xabiaxica

Clarita said:


> Also, obviously signing up for the padron is the thing to do but what would happen if I didn't sign up?


if you don't register on the padrón there are no consequences for you, except that you will need that padrón cert for a resident bank account, to register with a doctor etc etc

if you don't register the TOWN you live in loses out though - central govt provides funds to the town for every person registered on the padrón


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## Clarita

Ok cool. Thanks xabiachica. Will get onto it asap.


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> if you don't register on the padrón there are no consequences for you, except that you will need that padrón cert for a resident bank account, to register with a doctor etc etc
> 
> if you don't register the TOWN you live in loses out though - central govt provides funds to the town for every person registered on the padrón


and if you want to buy a car! The car is registered to where you live and the Road tax is levied by the local authority and as such varies from town to town.


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> and if you want to buy a car! The car is registered to where you live and the Road tax is levied by the local authority and as such varies from town to town.


nope - you don't need a padrón to buy a car- just proof of address

yes, some dealers will ask for a padrón cert - but they shouldn't need one

non-residents can buy cars - but shouldn't be on the padrón


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## rewdan

I was under the impression that I should be on the Padron as I own a second home in Spain, even as non resident. Is that not the case?


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## xabiaxica

rewdan said:


> I was under the impression that I should be on the Padron as I own a second home in Spain, even as non resident. Is that not the case?


absolutely not!

only RESIDENTS should register on the padrón

Any resident of Spain can only be on the padrón where they LIVE - it's a register of those who are _habitually resident_ (as the law states) in the town & live there for the majority of the year

they can't register on the padrón where they have holiday homes - & neither should you


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## rewdan

Oooops! I had better de-register when I go back in a few weeks.


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## xabiaxica

rewdan said:


> Oooops! I had better de-register when I go back in a few weeks.


there are LOTS of people in your position who have been misled into registering - but it can cause problems for you later should you actually move here full time, so it's best that you do 'de-register'


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## rewdan

can I ask what kind of problems, just in case


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## xabiaxica

rewdan said:


> can I ask what kind of problems, just in case



what you need to remember is that when you register on the padrón, you are declaring that you are a resident of that town, & therefore of Spain.... so for a start that's a false declaration

If you do eventually move to Spain, anything you need a padrón cert for, according to the padrón records, you might well have been resident for YEARS - when in fact you never have been

so, importing a car from the UK - you can only do that as part of your 'goods' if you do so when you first move here - if according to the records you had been resident for a long time, you could be stung for tax

also, the national police have access to padrón records to (among other things) keep track of foreigners living in Spain - you can be fined for not registering as resident - I know several people who _are _resident who hadn't registered as resident but were on the padrón - the police turned up at their homes wanting to know why they weren't registered & giving them something like 72 hours to get 'legal'

there are others who were on the padrón who shouldn't have been who had go & de-register

in all fairness, none of it is impossible to put right, but it IS hassle no-one needs


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## el pescador

How do I find out what Office to go to?
The link on the opening page doesn't work anymore.


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## xabiaxica

el pescador said:


> How do I find out what Office to go to?
> The link on the opening page doesn't work anymore.


do you mean the links here? http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html on the first post

I just tried them & they work for me


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## DesWalker

Another great thread.

I was about to ask about whether a Non-Resident such as myself should register with the Padron as others have told me that it is not a problem and that the local council benefits financially as a result. But now I find that it is technically against the rules for me to do so and could conceivably cause issues down the line. That's fine by me as it is one less thing to worry about. Does anyone disagree with any of this ?

Cheers,

Des


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## Aron

DesWalker said:


> Another great thread.
> 
> I was about to ask about whether a Non-Resident such as myself should register with the Padron as others have told me that it is not a problem and that the local council benefits financially as a result. But now I find that it is technically against the rules for me to do so and could conceivably cause issues down the line. That's fine by me as it is one less thing to worry about. Does anyone disagree with any of this ?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Des


To be on the empadronamiento you have to be a resident. There is no technicality about that.


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## el pescador

xabiachica said:


> do you mean the links here? http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html on the first post
> 
> I just tried them & they work for me


Thanks.
I tried one which didn't work but another one did.


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## Christina_G

xabiachica said:


> also... from EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********


Hi
Why would pensioners need proof of private health insurance, I thought they got free treatment

Christina


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## baldilocks

Christina_G said:


> Hi
> Why would pensioners need proof of private health insurance, I thought they got free treatment
> 
> Christina


It doesn't say anything about *private* health insurance, it says "comprehensive health insurance" which in the case of UK OAPs, is covered by the form S1 from Newcastle. But many people who have retired from employment consider themselves pensioners and may be living on occupational/private pensions but would need private health insurance to cover them until they qualify for their OAP and a S1.


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## Christina_G

*health insurance*



baldilocks said:


> It doesn't say anything about *private* health insurance, it says "comprehensive health insurance" which in the case of UK OAPs, is covered by the form S1 from Newcastle. But many people who have retired from employment consider themselves pensioners and may be living on occupational/private pensions but would need private health insurance to cover them until they qualify for their OAP and a S1.


Thank you 
Christina


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## el pescador

All sorted.
Was expecting to have to wait several hours but from the moment i first walked through their door to the time i left with the small bank card sized cert (with NIE number on too) it was about 1 hour and 10 minutes.
Would have been half an hour less had downloaded a form to pay the fee before hand.

Who says they are a nightmare here?

I was seriously impressed with their setup.
They were quite busy in there too.


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## snikpoh

el pescador said:


> All sorted.
> Was expecting to have to wait several hours but from the moment i first walked through their door to the time i left with the small bank card sized cert (with NIE number on too) it was about 1 hour and 10 minutes.
> Would have been half an hour less had downloaded a form to pay the fee before hand.
> 
> Who says they are a nightmare here?
> 
> I was seriously impressed with their setup.
> They were quite busy in there too.


Which office/town was that? Your location says that you are still in UK


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## Aron

el pescador said:


> All sorted.
> Was expecting to have to wait several hours but from the moment i first walked through their door to the time i left with the small bank card sized cert (with NIE number on too) it was about 1 hour and 10 minutes.
> Would have been half an hour less had downloaded a form to pay the fee before hand.
> 
> Who says they are a nightmare here?
> 
> I was seriously impressed with their setup.
> They were quite busy in there too.


Not everything runs smoothly at times. Some people do have a problem. We didn't, took no time at all. Saying that, changing our driving licence to a Spanish one. Some people had it done in two weeks. My wife took 11 weeks, but mine took 7 months. Not everything runs smoothly. If you had lived here as long as me you would at sometime come up against real problems when trying to do something simple. I have learned to chill out now, it comes from living here!


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## ddrysdale99

CapnBilly said:


> Err, think you need a new calculator. If your income is €8496, then you get a personal allowance of €5151 AND earned income allowance of €4080, so thats tax of err €0 to the Hacienda.


Am I right in thinking that the 4080 earned income allowance is a sliding scale? The more you earn the less it is?


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## Nignoy

as frequently happens among elderly expats here in Australia, obtained a residents permit when Kaiser bill was a lad, all perfectly legal but not kept up to date with residents statutes, flew home to Europe to visit the great grandkids, arrive at immigration in Sydney and are refused entry, doesn't matter you have lived and worked in aus for 50 years ,receive an Australian state pension, little immigration toads absolutely love refusing people entry to this wide and wonderful land!!


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## MaxJ

I am not sure if I am doing the right thing by asking my question at the end of this thread. I was hoping to avoid opening up another one on Spanish residency.

I own a property in the Comunidad de Madrid and naturally have an NIE. I have not until now lived in Spain, have never been here for more than 89 consecutive days or more than 182 days in any year. I now do wish to settle here, in the home I own, permanently and I have a couple of questions and would be most grateful for the advice of contributors to the forum.

1. What sort of documents are acceptable as proof of income/resources? (I am 53, in receipt of a UK Armed Forces pension and I have savings.) 
(a) Will a P60 be enough? I recently asked the Paymaster in the UK to send me a letter confirming that I am in receipt of a pension and its value. The letter, very unhelpfully, states that nothing declared in the letter should be construed as an obligation by the Paymaster to pay any of the sums mentioned in the letter. 
(b) Is it ok to produce UK bank statements? I have had an account in Spain since buying my property nearly 12 years ago, but I only transfer money to it, from the UK, as and when I need it. As a result, the Spanish bank (BBVA) would not be in a position to say that I had a monthly income. 

2. Will the above-mentioned documents need to translated? (Does a P60 or a bank statement require translation?) Can anyone recommend a translator for this sort of task? I have seen the list of accredited translators at http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Portal/es/ServiciosAlCiudadano/Documents/ListadoTIJ.pdf

Do I just choose one off there?

3. I applied to be included on the _padrón_ in the local _Ayuntamiento_ two years ago. I was not asked to produce a residence document. Might I be able to take advantage of the _convenio especial_ and pay the EUR60 monthly fee given that I have been registered in my town for the last couple of years?

Many thanks for your thoughts!


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## xabiaxica

MaxJ said:


> I am not sure if I am doing the right thing by asking my question at the end of this thread. I was hoping to avoid opening up another one on Spanish residency.
> 
> I own a property in the Comunidad de Madrid and naturally have an NIE. I have not until now lived in Spain, have never been here for more than 89 consecutive days or more than 182 days in any year. I now do wish to settle here, in the home I own, permanently and I have a couple of questions and would be most grateful for the advice of contributors to the forum.
> 
> 1. What sort of documents are acceptable as proof of income/resources? (I am 53, in receipt of a UK Armed Forces pension and I have savings.)
> (a) Will a P60 be enough? I recently asked the Paymaster in the UK to send me a letter confirming that I am in receipt of a pension and its value. The letter, very unhelpfully, states that nothing declared in the letter should be construed as an obligation by the Paymaster to pay any of the sums mentioned in the letter.
> (b) Is it ok to produce UK bank statements? I have had an account in Spain since buying my property nearly 12 years ago, but I only transfer money to it, from the UK, as and when I need it. As a result, the Spanish bank (BBVA) would not be in a position to say that I had a monthly income.
> 
> 2. Will the above-mentioned documents need to translated? (Does a P60 or a bank statement require translation?) Can anyone recommend a translator for this sort of task? I have seen the list of accredited translators at http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Portal/es/ServiciosAlCiudadano/Documents/ListadoTIJ.pdf
> 
> Do I just choose one off there?
> 
> 3. I applied to be included on the _padrón_ in the local _Ayuntamiento_ two years ago. I was not asked to produce a residence document. Might I be able to take advantage of the _convenio especial_ and pay the EUR60 monthly fee given that I have been registered in my town for the last couple of years?
> 
> Many thanks for your thoughts!


To show income, most extranjerías will ask for a stamped bank statement from a bank in Spain - they are supposed to accept an official translation of a foreign bank statement - but tbh that it expensive - just start making regular transfers into your Spanish account - maybe get your pension paid in directly

You need to have been a _legally registered resident _for 12 months before you can access the convenio especial - being on the padrón isn't quite the same, since even 'illegal immigrants' can be on the padrón - since you've never been here for more than half the year, you shouldn't have been on the padrón, anyway (& it's entirely correct that they didn't ask for a residence document)


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## MaxJ

Thank you for your reply immediately above, xabiachica. I decided to get onto the padrón when I did because the Ayuntamiento announced that there would be a 50% surcharge on IBI in respect of any property which did not have an occupant listed on the padrón. I don't know if it would have been legal for them to make such a surcharge or whether they did eventually proceed to make the threat a reality. I decided not to take the risk. Btw, it cannot have taken me as much as 5 mins to complete the formality of "empadronamiento" and, of course, it costs nothing - and might have saved me EUR130 p.a.


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## xabiaxica

MaxJ said:


> Thank you for your reply immediately above, xabiachica. I decided to get onto the padrón when I did because* the Ayuntamiento announced that there would be a 50% surcharge on IBI in respect of any property which did not have an occupant listed on the padrón. I don't know if it would have been lega*l for them to make such a surcharge or whether they did eventually proceed to make the threat a reality. I decided not to take the risk. Btw, it cannot have taken me as much as 5 mins to complete the formality of "empadronamiento" and, of course, it costs nothing - and might have saved me EUR130 p.a.


that is ridiculous & probably not legal at all - holiday home owners must not be on the padrón - it can cause them all kinds of problems down the line, tax wise

it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes - so they were doing that right, at least


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