# Moving to Mexico City



## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

For the past four years, I have been teaching internationally - one year at a language school in Changwon, Korea, three years at a prepa in Culiacan, Mexico. Having tired of Culiacan - a famously dangerous and also somewhat dreary city - I decided to look for a job teaching at an international high school elsewhere in Mexico. Three schools are looking at my candidacy seriously, and any or all might make offers to me this week for an August start. All three schools are located on the west side of Mexico City, in the Cuajimalpa and Alvaro Obregon boroughs.

Mexico City will be entirely new to me, and I am very interested in getting to know it. My reading Spanish is passable, my speaking-and-listening Spanish not what I'd wish it to be (which is surprising after three years here, but I hope to improve it).

I'll be looking for a similar living situation to the one I've had here in Culiacan - a nice two-bedroom furnished apartment in a pleasant neighborhood. I live alone with three delightful cats, all adopted locally, who will be coming with me.

I will not have a car, so I'll be using public transportation, and taxicabs to some extent. I'm curious, is the subway system reasonably safe? I've heard that one has to be careful about street taxis (which I've had no trouble with in Culiacan).

Any insights are appreciated, especially with respect to those two particular boroughs. What boroughs or parts of the city are to be avoided?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> For the past four years, I have been teaching internationally - one year at a language school in Changwon, Korea, three years at a prepa in Culiacan, Mexico. Having tired of Culiacan - a famously dangerous and also somewhat dreary city - I decided to look for a job teaching at an international high school elsewhere in Mexico. Three schools are looking at my candidacy seriously, and any or all might make offers to me this week for an August start. All three schools are located on the west side of Mexico City, in the Cuajimalpa and Alvaro Obregon boroughs.
> 
> Mexico City will be entirely new to me, and I am very interested in getting to know it. My reading Spanish is passable, my speaking-and-listening Spanish not what I'd wish it to be (which is surprising after three years here, but I hope to improve it).
> 
> ...


I have lived in Mexico City since 2007 and spent lots of time here before then, so I know quite a bit about the D.F.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about Cuajimalpa or the west end of the city in general since I'm lucky enough to have a place in the center of town.

From what I know about apartments for rent in my part of town, furnished apartments are hard to find, unless you're willing to pay a fortune in rent. Actually, you'll be lucky to find a place that comes with a refrigerator, though usually a kitchen stove is provided. Once you know where you'll be working, look for a place as near to your school as possible since rush-hour traffic can be pretty awful in most areas. You could contact current expat teachers at your new school for advice about where to look for a place to live. You will need a _fiador_ to rent most places: that's a property owner in Mexico City who will sign an agreement to pay your rent if you don't. Perhaps your employer would do that for you.

I've never had any problems on the subway, though it does get super-crowded during rush hours. When I need a taxi, I just hail one from the street and have never had any problems. In fact, I've found most _taxistas_ pleasant and ready for a chat. I do speak Spanish fluently, so that may be one reason why I've never been "taken for a ride" so to speak, but most taxis use meters , so there's little chance to try and fleece their customers. 

Feel free to ask more questions either here or via PM.

And welcome to the Gran Manzana Mexicana!


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Taxi meters are good. They don't have them here in Culiacan. The biggest concern I've heard about cabs in the DF, though, is riders getting robbed by the drivers!

Renting was pretty easy here in Culiacan, lots of furnished apartments with refrigerators. Not dirt-cheap, mind, but plentiful. I do believe the school will sign that fiador agreement for me (they had better!).


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Taxi meters are good. They don't have them here in Culiacan. The biggest concern I've heard about cabs in the DF, though, is riders getting robbed by the drivers!
> 
> Renting was pretty easy here in Culiacan, lots of furnished apartments with refrigerators. Not dirt-cheap, mind, but plentiful. I do believe the school will sign that fiador agreement for me (they had better!).


No taxi meters, no good! There was a time back in the 1990s when you did have to be careful about getting into cabs you hailed from the street, but that isn't true anymore.

Well, renting will be a bit more complicated here. In some areas, like mine, apartments are not plentiful, unless you've got lots of money to spend. Once you know where you'll be teaching, there might be a fellow teacher or someone else who works at the school who would know of an available apartment. As is true everywhere else in Mexico, connections are the key to having a good life.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

I live close to Cuajimalpa. Its a decent area, although there are some bad parts. My kids go to school close to there in a nice little private school.

As far as a furnished apartment, you may not find anything. There are some good areas close the Walmart off of the Car. Mexico-Toluca. Are you looking for a small house or apartment?

Regarding not having a car in that area, it may not be an issue. However if you want to come down to the city after 4pm in the afternoon, you may take about 2 hours. Traffic is horrible.

If you really want Cuajimalpa, then I would say go for it. Its far enough out of the city that its a little more quite, Santa Fe mall is close by with a HUGE +Kota pet store...also the new Patio Santa Fe mall has a large +Kota pet store as well. I like living out here and if you know the back roads, you can get around quickly....but not having a car you are regulated to taxis and the combis.

PM me if you want to chat.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

conorkilleen said:


> I live close to Cuajimalpa. Its a decent area, although there are some bad parts. My kids go to school close to there in a nice little private school.
> 
> As far as a furnished apartment, you may not find anything. There are some good areas close the Walmart off of the Car. Mexico-Toluca. Are you looking for a small house or apartment?
> 
> ...


This is helpful, thanks! Good to know about the +Kota stores - ours here in Culiacan at the Forum mall closed for "renovations" months ago, but shows no signs of re-opening. My cats are numero uno with me. 

I'm just looking for an apartment - and if a two-bedroom can't be had for a reasonable price, I'll take a spacious one-bedroom. The furnishings (especially bed and refrigerator) are kind of important.

What is my idea of "reasonable"? Well, I can go up to 6500 pesos per month without straining my budget, based on what I'll be making. In Culiacan I've been (over-)paying at 5700 pesos; I could have had a perfectly decent two-bedroom here for under 4000, but I got used to my apartment and my neighborhood, and you know, well....inertia.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

you can find a 1-2 bedroom apartment in that area with parking for 5500-7000 per month for a nice place.. No problem there....but not furnished.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

conorkilleen said:


> you can find a 1-2 bedroom apartment in that area with parking for 5500-7000 per month for a nice place.. No problem there....but not furnished.


As examples of what might be generally acceptable:

A pretty spiffy furnished two-bedroom for 8000 pesos - I'd take 3/4 the quality for 3/4 the price:

http://mexicocity.en.craigslist.com.mx/apa/4511721390.html

Pet-friendly furnished two-bedroom for 6500:

piso totalmente amueblado en calle Filadelfia - Benito Juárez - Casas - Departamentos en Renta - Napoles


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

Neither one of those are close to Cuajimalpa, but if you look hard enough you may be able to find something similar. Unless the furniture is new, I would not be looking for an apartment that is furnished with anything more than appliances.....thats just me. I for one would not like to be sleeping on a bed that who knows what happened on or around it or sitting on a questionable sofa full of untold amounts of Tecate farts.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

conorkilleen said:


> Neither one of those are close to Cuajimalpa, but if you look hard enough you may be able to find something similar. Unless the furniture is new, I would not be looking for an apartment that is furnished with anything more than appliances.....thats just me. I for one would not like to be sleeping on a bed that who knows what happened on or around it or sitting on a questionable sofa full of untold amounts of Tecate farts.


I take your point, but on the other hand, people stay in hotels all the time, and there the question is, what happened on this bed or sofa last night? I have friends who have worked that sort of room clean-up detail, and they told me some pretty gross stories, but I still stay in hotels, because what's the alternative? Lift the screen to show the inner workings of things, and none of us would be able to do anything, we'd be so freaked out.

The furniture in my current apartment had been thoroughly cleaned before I moved in, and seemed quite delightful, really.


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## Cochinito (Dec 4, 2010)

I've been in el DF for over four years, and I'd just warn you that it can be kind of an addictive city. My original plan was just 6-9 months to get a taste for it.

As for the metro, it's not a big concern, just take basic precautions. I've personally never had any incident and I use it fairly frequently. I keep my wallet in my front pocket. More secure that way. Now, a friend of mine recently had his iPhone lifted while on a crowded train. He knew immediately because the music he was listening to stopped, and he had no way of knowing who took it. So that sort of thing does happen. Just be careful, but you don't have to be fearful.

ETA: A friend from Paris once told me she felt much safer on the Mexico City metro than Paris's.

I used to worry about taxis but I don't any more. The most recent story of an express kidnapping I've heard is in David Lida's First Step in the New World, and his story is utterly not credible. What he describes couldn't possibly have happened. At any rate just make sure the taxi driver puts on the meter. If he doesn't, get out. If your experience is like mine, you'll find that these kinds of incidents become less frequent as your Spanish improves.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Cochinito said:


> I've been in el DF for over four years, and I'd just warn you that it can be kind of an addictive city. My original plan was just 6-9 months to get a taste for it.
> 
> As for the metro, it's not a big concern, just take basic precautions. I've personally never had any incident and I use it fairly frequently. I keep my wallet in my front pocket. More secure that way. Now, a friend of mine recently had his iPhone lifted while on a crowded train. He knew immediately because the music he was listening to stopped, and he had no way of knowing who took it. So that sort of thing does happen. Just be careful, but you don't have to be fearful.
> 
> ...


Great advice, thank you! And I'm sure Mexico City is addictive. One of those cities, like London or Buenos Aires or Tokyo, that it is absolutely impossible to get to the bottom of; there is always something new to discover.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Cochinito said:


> I've been in el DF for over four years, and I'd just warn you that it can be kind of an addictive city. My original plan was just 6-9 months to get a taste for it.
> 
> As for the metro, it's not a big concern, just take basic precautions. I've personally never had any incident and I use it fairly frequently. I keep my wallet in my front pocket. More secure that way. Now, a friend of mine recently had his iPhone lifted while on a crowded train. He knew immediately because the music he was listening to stopped, and he had no way of knowing who took it. So that sort of thing does happen. Just be careful, but you don't have to be fearful.
> 
> I used to worry about taxis but I don't any more. The most recent story of an express kidnapping I've heard is in David Lida's First Step in the New World, and his story is utterly not credible. The story he describes couldn't possibly have happened. At any rate just make sure the taxi driver puts on the meter. If he doesn't, get out. If your experience is like mine, you'll find that these kinds of incidents become less frequent as your Spanish improves.


It's good to hear from another honorary chilango. 

I read David Lida's book a few years ago, soon after it was published in 2008, which makes its information a bit dated. I don't remember the story about the express kidnapping you mention, so I can't comment on whether or not I believe the author made it up. I do recall that he seemed to focus on the seamy side of life in the D.F., or at least the parts of the city where I don't venture, like the interesting tale of a swinger's club that he visited with a female friend.

I recently took a taxi and didn't notice that the driver hadn't turned on the meter. When we arrived at my destination, he asked me how much I wanted to pay. Since I had a general idea of how much the trip should have cost, that's what I gave him and he seemed pleased with the amount. It probably helped that I speak fluent Spanish and we had a nice chat during the drive. 

The longer you live here and the better your Spanish becomes, the more at ease you'll feel living in Mexico City and the less you'll seem like a foreign tourist. In turn, that will help you avoid problems with those_ taxistas_ and other scam artists who like to take advantage of visitors to the city.


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## Cochinito (Dec 4, 2010)

Well, we're veering off topic here, but if I'm going to criticize the guy I guess I have an obligation to put up.

I enjoyed the book, but came away from it with a sense that he was sensastionalizing and exaggerrating. So for example he describes the incursion into Condesa of U.S. chains, citing Starbucks, Krispy Kreme, and Subway. At the time of the book's publication I think there were three Starbucks, so I'm not going to quibble with that. And yeah, there's a Krispy Kreme. But citing Subway is BS. It's on Insurgentes, which has its own character quite apart from adjacent neighborhoods. To this day you can't credibly say that Condesa has been overrun by multinational chains.

As for the express kidnapping story, he claims he started out with his wife in a VW Beetle taxi and ended up on the floor after two kidnappers got in, one he describes as the size of a gorilla. I've taken vocho taxis and I can barely move once I'm seated. I mean, maybe that's actually physically possible but it would be farcical watching these two kidnappers -- one "with the body of a gorilla" -- negotiating the precious little space in the front of the taxi. In short I don't buy his story. If it happened, it couldn't have happened as he describes it.


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## travelinhobo (Sep 17, 2010)

A few comments and I've lived here for 2.5 years. First, the rest of MX doesn't like MC, so for the most part you'll hear quite negative comments about everything about this city even tho the people speaking have never been here. I know this first hand. Second, a lot of what is said and repeated (and repeated and repeated) is old news meaning that at one time (for example) the metro system was dangerous, but not now. The Mexicans like to hang on to old negative gossip.

I used to take the metro extensively (several timse a day) and during my 2 year period here from '08-10, I never had anything bad happen to me - in the metro and on the street. If you have common sense, aren't looking for trouble, blah blah, you probably won't find any. This is a crazy and zany city where, if you allow it, your senses will make you feel like you've never been alive until you arrived here. This city takes months to explore and learn and I'm always amazed by the foreigners who come here to live and don't know squat about it.

If you haven't learned Spanish by now, you're not going, so may as well give up the fantasy. There aren't many Spanish teachers, but you can find the few that there are on craigslist. I would also suggest for a review of what's available in the housing dept: craigslist, vivanuncios.com.mx, compartodepa.com.mx and olx.com.mx. Don't think you'll find a 2-bedroom for the amount you're mentioning, but I don't know about the Cuj. area. The western half of MC is the more affluent/wealthier/white classier area of the city. That's not to give the impression that you don't have poverty on that side. Just that the poorer people tend to live more on the eastern side. That said, the neighborhood with the worst reputation (and again, reputations hold still here for decades even when the facts have changed) is Tepito which is smack dab in the middle of the city. AFter that, reputations say to avoid Lagunilla (except for the Sunday outdoor market they have), Balbuena and a few other areas I suppose. But you won't be in any of those areas with where the 3 schools are.

AFter all this info, I hope you get one of the jobs!


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

travelinhobo said:


> A few comments and I've lived here for 2.5 years. First, the rest of MX doesn't like MC, so for the most part you'll hear quite negative comments about everything about this city even tho the people speaking have never been here. I know this first hand. Second, a lot of what is said and repeated (and repeated and repeated) is old news meaning that at one time (for example) the metro system was dangerous, but not now. The Mexicans like to hang on to old negative gossip.
> 
> I used to take the metro extensively (several timse a day) and during my 2 year period here from '08-10, I never had anything bad happen to me - in the metro and on the street. If you have common sense, aren't looking for trouble, blah blah, you probably won't find any. This is a crazy and zany city where, if you allow it, your senses will make you feel like you've never been alive until you arrived here. This city takes months to explore and learn and I'm always amazed by the foreigners who come here to live and don't know squat about it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the good advice on all fronts. I got offers from all three schools, and accepted the one I felt offers the best opportunity. Not the highest money, one of the other schools was higher, but quite good money. The school has indicated that it will help me find an apartment.

I fear you are largely right about my Spanish. My reading improves as I learn more vocabulary; I have always learned to read languages fairly easily. But my listening / speaking skills have never been at that level in any language I have studied, from middle school to now. I have never had formal classes in Spanish and would like to give that a try in Mexico City if possible, not with any dream of fluency - I don't think it will come - but in the hope of improving my very basic "get around" Spanish. A big comprehension gap that I have is simply making out the sounds people are speaking at the speed at which they speak. Having had six years of French study, I do make out the sounds of French a LOT better than I do Spanish. Mexican Spanish as my ear picks it up is largely a blurry wash of sound, unfortunately.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

travelinhobo said:


> …If you haven't learned Spanish by now, you're not going, so may as well give up the fantasy. There aren't many Spanish teachers, but you can find the few that there are on craigslist.
> …


I find it hard to believe that there "aren't many Spanish teachers" in Mexico City. Guadalajara, with 1/5 the population of Mexico City, has tons of Spanish classes and teachers. Also, why so negative on learning Spanish?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I find it hard to believe that there "aren't many Spanish teachers" in Mexico City. Guadalajara, with 1/5 the population of Mexico City, has tons of Spanish classes and teachers. Also, why so negative on learning Spanish?


Maybe bad personal experiences?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> Maybe bad personal experiences?


Maybe. On a scale of 1 to 10 for language learning ability, I probably rate about a 3. There are people slower than I am but not many. And I am still managing to learn Spanish, albeit slowly. If I can do it, anyone can.


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## travelinhobo (Sep 17, 2010)

A few years ago when I was here, I attempted to find a native Mexican teacher on line. There were only 2 or 3. Why so few? I wondered that as well. Maybe they only work in the language schools (tho I don't know how many of the schools offer Spanish to foreigners). I'm also willing to bet that Guad. has more foreign students than DF.

I'm not being negative about him taking up classes, I'm being factual. It's human nature that when you move to a new country with a new language, the longer you put off learning the language, the less likely you're going to. (If you can't cook and haven't tried and you move into a new house with a magnificent kitchen, are you really going to learn to cook?) He's at year 3 now in Culiacan without having put much effort into formal studying. New Year's Day is approaching (the move to DF) and he thinks that with the new holiday he'll accomplish his New Year's Resolution. But it most likely won't happen. Human nature, not negativity. I will say that it's surprising since he knows another language (French) that he hasn't tried to pick up Spanish quicker. Usually it's the first language which is hardest to learn, esp. if you're an adult.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

travelinhobo said:


> A few years ago when I was here, I attempted to find a native Mexican teacher on line. There were only 2 or 3. Why so few? I wondered that as well. Maybe they only work in the language schools (tho I don't know how many of the schools offer Spanish to foreigners). I'm also willing to bet that Guad. has more foreign students than DF.
> 
> I'm not being negative about him taking up classes, I'm being factual. It's human nature that when you move to a new country with a new language, the longer you put off learning the language, the less likely you're going to. (If you can't cook and haven't tried and you move into a new house with a magnificent kitchen, are you really going to learn to cook?) He's at year 3 now in Culiacan without having put much effort into formal studying. New Year's Day is approaching (the move to DF) and he thinks that with the new holiday he'll accomplish his New Year's Resolution. But it most likely won't happen. Human nature, not negativity. I will say that it's surprising since he knows another language (French) that he hasn't tried to pick up Spanish quicker. Usually it's the first language which is hardest to learn, esp. if you're an adult.


I think I can answer that without being too defensive. I was really busy with my teaching in Culiacan; my workday is 7:00 AM - 6:00 P.M. (sometimes later), Monday - Friday. And there are no English classes available here (believe me, I checked). So that all worked against me somewhat. Could I have put more effort into it? Undoubtedly. Will I now? Maybe a little more. But I'm not arguing against your main point, not at all. If learning Spanish had been a top 5 priority, it probably would have happened.

Truth is, my spoken French was never that great either (and is now quite rusty), although I could comprehend spoken French OK. Learning to read foreign languages was always my better skill (I'm a bookish guy). My reading Spanish isn't too shabby and continues to improve. 

My goal now would be modest, simply to make myself understood a little better in useful, mundane daily exchanges. I don't anticipate ever being able to have a fluent conversation in Spanish at the level that would satisfy me. I probably have a pretty high standard in that area, since I so much enjoy the richness of English and its vast vocabulary, which allows for such precision of communication when used well. I'm never going to have close to that many words in any other language.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> My goal now would be modest, simply to make myself understood a little better in useful, mundane daily exchanges. I don't anticipate ever being able to have a fluent conversation in Spanish at the level that would satisfy me. I probably have a pretty high standard in that area, since I so much enjoy the richness of English and its vast vocabulary, which allows for such precision of communication when used well. I'm never going to have close to that many words in any other language.


Apart from finding a decent Spanish class or private teacher to give you a good starting point, you will need to seek out Spanish-speakers to spend time with who will be patient and gently correct your most egregious errors. Don't focus on what you won't be able to attain in terms of fluency in speaking Spanish, but on how much fun it will be to communicate in a new language.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

The best advice is to take a taxi from a registered site and obviously with the meter rolling. Wallet in the front pocket, common sense,in whatever country.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Justina said:


> The best advice is to take a taxi from a registered site and obviously with the meter rolling. Wallet in the front pocket, common sense,in whatever country.


Not really. Taxis from _sitios_ generally charge a great deal more than taxis that roam the streets looking for customers. After hailing a taxi, when you get in, just make sure the _taxista_ turns the meter on.


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## travelinhobo (Sep 17, 2010)

I don't doubt that Culiacan doesn't have enough expats to warrant a language school. It's not exactly where everyone flocks to to live.  There are actually a few websites where you can probably find teachers, now that I think of it. But if you can't find one advertising, I'd walk into some of the language schools which give Spanish classes and find out if you can speak to the teacher and ask them if they're interested in taking you on privately.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Good news! The school that hired me found me a nice one-bedroom, cat-friendly, furnished apartment within walking distance of the school (be still my beating heart) for 7000 pesos per month. The only slight drawback is that there is less space than I am used to (naturally, since I have a two-bedroom in Culiacan), and I don't know yet what sort of storage space there is within the unit or the building. If I should need a small storage locker for my overflow belongings, are those readily available in Mexico City?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Good news! The school that hired me found me a nice one-bedroom, cat-friendly, furnished apartment within walking distance of the school (be still my beating heart) for 7000 pesos per month. The only slight drawback is that there is less space than I am used to.


Not trying to put a damper on your find. 
Isla, to me , having lived well at Lakeside many years for much less, that sounds really expensive for a "small" place, or about right in the DF?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Not trying to put a damper on your find.
> Isla, to me , having lived well at Lakeside many years for much less, that sounds really expensive for a "small" place, or about right in the DF?


It it's a really nice place, with kitchen appliances and decent furniture, and hopefully adequate closets, and in a nice neighborhood, $7000 is about what I'd expect to pay for a furnished apartment in a good area of Mexico City. In my pleasant centrally-located middle-class neighborhood, I pay $4300 for a very small unfurnished one-bedroom apartment, with no cats allowed.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> It it's a really nice place, with kitchen appliances and decent furniture, and hopefully adequate closets, and in a nice neighborhood, $7000 is about what I'd expect to pay for a furnished apartment in a good area of Mexico City. In my pleasant centrally-located middle-class neighborhood, I pay $4300 for a very small unfurnished one-bedroom apartment, with no cats allowed.


Given my needs, I think I did pretty well, especially considering the apartment's proximity to the school. If I were retired, I might opt for something less pricey even if it involved a trade-off on location, but for now, this seems suitable.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Given my needs, I think I did pretty well, especially considering the apartment's proximity to the school. If I were retired, I might opt for something less pricey even if it involved a trade-off on location, but for now, this seems suitable.


After you've been here for a year, you may be able to find something cheaper on your own.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> After you've been here for a year, you may be able to find something cheaper on your own.


That is definitely in my mind. We'll see how it goes. For now, I am just so excited to be walking distance from my employment!


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Good news! The school that hired me found me a nice one-bedroom, cat-friendly, furnished apartment within walking distance of the school (be still my beating heart) for 7000 pesos per month. The only slight drawback is that there is less space than I am used to (naturally, since I have a two-bedroom in Culiacan), and I don't know yet what sort of storage space there is within the unit or the building. If I should need a small storage locker for my overflow belongings, are those readily available in Mexico City?


Update: I am all moved in. The apartment is spectacular! It is HUGE, so much for my thinking it would be smaller than I am used to. Two bedrooms, two baths, two showers! The furnishings are all superior quality. 

The apartment is a 5th floor walk-up, 70 stairs from bottom to top, so I will be getting my exercise for sure. Wonderful views in every direction. My three cats are very happy. 

Colonia de Navidad in Cuajimalpa, my home base, seems very nice. Ii does seem, as I was warned here, that the public transportation options to and from the more central parts of Mexico City are a bit sketchy - that I will have to take the bus to get to the subway, for example. But I am sure I will figure all that out. There are several other teachers from my school, both established and new like myself, who will be living in the same building, so we will all undoubtedly help each other.

The school is less than a ten-minute walk. I can see it from my balcony. 

The only downsides to the moving process so far: 

(1) My mover was maddening, very much operating on "Mexican time" to an extent that nearly proved disastrous. He was supposed to pick up my belongings in Culiacan two full days before my Thursday morning flight, but in fact arrived in the middle of the night just a few hours before the flight, then was completely incommunicado for two days. Oh, my nerves. 

(2) I have had more of an altitude adjustment than I expected as a healthy, 55-year-old, lifetime non-smoker with presumably strong lungs. But today, on my fifth day here, I may be feeling a smidge of improvement in that area.

On the other hand, the flight on Volaris with the three cats went smoothly.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Update: I am all moved in. The apartment is spectacular! It is HUGE, so much for my thinking it would be smaller than I am used to. Two bedrooms, two baths, two showers! The furnishings are all superior quality.
> 
> The apartment is a 5th floor walk-up, 70 stairs from bottom to top, so I will be getting my exercise for sure. Wonderful views in every direction. My three cats are very happy.
> 
> ...


I am glad to hear everything worked out. I wish you much enjoyment in your new environment.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> Update: I am all moved in. The apartment is spectacular! It is HUGE, so much for my thinking it would be smaller than I am used to. Two bedrooms, two baths, two showers! The furnishings are all superior quality.
> 
> The apartment is a 5th floor walk-up, 70 stairs from bottom to top, so I will be getting my exercise for sure. Wonderful views in every direction. My three cats are very happy.
> 
> ...


Your apartment sounds ideal! Since the building has no elevator, I'm guessing it's in an older building. I live in an old building without an elevator and walk up and down (actually that should be "down and up"!) 3 flights of stairs several times a day, which is great built-into-my-daily-routine exercise. Might I ask how much rent you're paying? 

Though you're far away from all of the activity in the center of the city, the important thing is to be close to work. Being able to walk to your school in ten minutes is a huge advantage.

Your body will take a bit of time getting used to the altitude, but as long as you're in good health, you should be fine in no time.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Your apartment sounds ideal! Since the building has no elevator, I'm guessing it's in an older building. I live in an old building without an elevator and walk up and down (actually that should be "down and up"!) 3 flights of stairs several times a day, which is great built-into-my-daily-routine exercise. Might I ask how much rent you're paying?
> 
> Though you're far away from all of the activity in the center of the city, the important thing is to be close to work. Being able to walk to your school in ten minutes is a huge advantage.
> 
> Your body will take a bit of time getting used to the altitude, but as long as you're in good health, you should be fine in no time.


The school holds the lease on the apartment. They initially quoted me 7,000 pesos, but the final amount was given as 7,300 pesos. I believe that includes gas (and water), but I need to clarify that. It does not include electricity. 

The building doesn't seem very old at all. Sometimes it seems to me that elevators are considered a frill in Mexico. Several of the buildings on the Tec de Monterrey campus where I worked for three years were four stories high but had no elevators. This created difficult situations when we had students on crutches, or worse, permanently in wheelchairs. I've seen Tec maintenance staff CARRYING people and their devices upstairs. I guess there must be no "Mexicans with Disabilities Act," eh? No American educational building of equivalent height would lack an elevator. 

I'm surprised by how long the altitude adjustment is taking. Today is Day 6 for me and I've had but slight improvement. Of course, the 70 stairs to get to my apartment (I counted) aren't helping.

I can tell already that the rest of the city will be for occasional excursions only, which is a bit of a revision in my original ideas. Monday through Friday, I'm very busy with work. Saturdays and Sundays, I catch up on errands. If there is no Metro stop nearby, and I don't believe there is, I'll have to carefully plan any trip into other parts of the city. That's a bit of a drag, and knowing myself, I simply won't do it. Vacation weeks and holidays are a different story; I never leave the country for those, so I'll have more of a chance to explore the D.F. then. 

I can already tell that for what the average American considers the minimum requirements for a middle-class lifestyle, Mexico City is expensive. I was at the Centro mall in Santa Fe today (huge), which is VERY upscale, and seeing lots of businessmen walking around, I wondered: What kind of salaries do they make? For reference, I'll be getting 27,500 pesos per month at school, a smidge above what I was getting in Culiacan. I can't imagine how a business guy / family guy / breadwinner with a couple of kids could live even a modestly aspirational professional lifestyle in Mexico City for less than 60,000 pesos per month (which at a dollar / peso exchange rate of 1:13, comes to about $55,000 USD annually). Am I off?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PatrickMurtha said:


> …
> The building doesn't seem very old at all. Sometimes it seems to me that elevators are considered a frill in Mexico. Several of the buildings on the Tec de Monterrey campus where I worked for three years were four stories high but had no elevators. This created difficult situations when we had students on crutches, or worse, permanently in wheelchairs. I've seen Tec maintenance staff CARRYING people and their devices upstairs. I guess there must be no "Mexicans with Disabilities Act," eh? No American educational building of equivalent height would lack an elevator.
> …


Apparently, many countries have a different attitude about stairs than the US. In Berlin, the typical urban apartment is in a large house with 5 floors, floors with tall ceilings incidentally, and no elevator. I don't know what people do when they get too old to climb stairs. It is probably the reason Germans like to hike in national parks. They all keep in great shape walking up and down the stairs to their apartments. Berlin is at sea level however.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Apparently, many countries have a different attitude about stairs than the US. In Berlin, the typical urban apartment is in a large house with 5 floors, floors with tall ceilings incidentally, and no elevator. I don't know what people do when they get too old to climb stairs. It is probably the reason Germans like to hike in national parks. They all keep in great shape walking up and down the stairs to their apartments. Berlin is at sea level however.


I believe that the ADA mandates elevators in any public facility building of three or more stories, and I should think that would include apartment buildings, although I'm no expert. Many existing buildings have been retrofitted. The public library in my home town of Passaic, New Jersey, is only two stories, but an elevator was installed (partly using grant money, I believe).

Americans do hate stairs. But the U.S. is also more aggressive about equal access issues for citizens than almost any other country - a fact that divides people politically for sure, but which I believe is consistent with the nation's ideals. As fond as I am of Mexico in many ways, I believe I can state after three years' experience here that equal access issues (of ALL kinds, including justice issues, etc.) are barely on the radar. The inequalities that are routinely accepted here would drive Americans of all political persuasions nuts if they were subject to them. Favorite American phrase: "I have my rights!" I somehow doubt there's a Mexican equivalent.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PatrickMurtha said:


> I believe that the ADA mandates elevators in any public facility building of three or more stories, and I should think that would include apartment buildings, although I'm no expert. Many existing buildings have been retrofitted. The public library in my home town of Passaic, New Jersey, is only two stories, but an elevator was installed (partly using grant money, I believe).
> 
> Americans do hate stairs. But the U.S. is also more aggressive about equal access issues for citizens than almost any other country - a fact that divides people politically for sure, but which I believe is consistent with the nation's ideals. As fond as I am of Mexico in many ways, I believe I can state after three years' experience here that equal access issues (of ALL kinds, including justice issues, etc.) are barely on the radar. The inequalities that are routinely accepted here would drive Americans of all political persuasions nuts if they were subject to them. Favorite American phrase: "I have my rights!" I somehow doubt there's a Mexican equivalent.


I agree. I have seen the same thing in other countries, much less attention paid to things like safety, access for the disabled, protection of wilderness. My take on it is that until the population reaches a level where most people have enough to eat and a decent place to live, those kind of concerns take a back seat. In Mexico, with around 40% of the population in poverty, it seems they have other, higher priority problems than safety, etc, although they do pay at least lip service to such things.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Santa fe*



PatrickMurtha said:


> The school holds the lease on the apartment. They initially quoted me 7,000 pesos, but the final amount was given as 7,300 pesos. I believe that includes gas (and water), but I need to clarify that. It does not include electricity.
> 
> The building doesn't seem very old at all. Sometimes it seems to me that elevators are considered a frill in Mexico. Several of the buildings on the Tec de Monterrey campus where I worked for three years were four stories high but had no elevators. This created difficult situations when we had students on crutches, or worse, permanently in wheelchairs. I've seen Tec maintenance staff CARRYING people and their devices upstairs. I guess there must be no "Mexicans with Disabilities Act," eh? No American educational building of equivalent height would lack an elevator.
> 
> ...


Santa Fe is where many of the banks have their Head Offices and the workers are expected to turn up in suits to work, although some have a more casual approach to Fridays. It is an expensive area and I know someone who is paying 20000 pesos per month for a flat there. It does have an elevator, gym pool, just the usual gated community. But I always considered Mexico City as a very expensive place to live and teaching has never paid well.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Justina said:


> Santa Fe is where many of the banks have their Head Offices and the workers are expected to turn up in suits to work, although some have a more casual approach to Fridays. It is an expensive area and I know someone who is paying 20000 pesos per month for a flat there. It does have an elevator, gym pool, just the usual gated community. But I always considered Mexico City as a very expensive place to live and teaching has never paid well.


That is interesting about the banks.

I'm not complaining about my pay - it's definitely in the upper tier for international teaching and for Mexico in particular. But if I were trying to support a family, it wouldn't go very far at all. And I would suppose that the normal set-up among upper middle class families in big U.S. cities - TWO highly educated professional wage-earners - is NOT yet the norm in Mexico, where there are far fewer women professionals, and where cultural norms still dictate that the man be the "breadwinner." So some of these professional D.F. men must be pulling down mucho dinero, two, three, or more times what I am making, and my salary would certainly be considered "good."


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Santa fe*



PatrickMurtha said:


> That is interesting about the banks.
> 
> I'm not complaining about my pay - it's definitely in the upper tier for international teaching and for Mexico in particular. But if I were trying to support a family, it wouldn't go very far at all. And I would suppose that the normal set-up among upper middle class families in big U.S. cities - TWO highly educated professional wage-earners - is NOT yet the norm in Mexico, where there are far fewer women professionals, and where cultural norms still dictate that the man be the "breadwinner." So some of these professional D.F. men must be pulling down mucho dinero, two, three, or more times what I am making, and my salary would certainly be considered "good."


It is good that you are happy with your salary and you can equate it with what you would be earning in the US. You will certainly be stress free with being able to walk to work cos in Mexico City it isn't uncommon for people to spend up to two hours per day each way driving to work.


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## Pure (Jul 15, 2014)

PatrickMurtha said:


> I can already tell that for what the average American considers the minimum requirements for a middle-class lifestyle, Mexico City is expensive. I was at the Centro mall in Santa Fe today (huge), which is VERY upscale, and seeing lots of businessmen walking around, I wondered: What kind of salaries do they make? For reference, I'll be getting 27,500 pesos per month at school, a smidge above what I was getting in Culiacan. I can't imagine how a business guy / family guy / breadwinner with a couple of kids could live even a modestly aspirational professional lifestyle in Mexico City for less than 60,000 pesos per month (which at a dollar / peso exchange rate of 1:13, comes to about $55,000 USD annually). Am I off?


I'm also starting a new job at a school, I was happy to get a monthly food allowance in my benefit package. Every little helps!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> That is interesting about the banks.
> 
> I'm not complaining about my pay - it's definitely in the upper tier for international teaching and for Mexico in particular. But if I were trying to support a family, it wouldn't go very far at all. And I would suppose that the normal set-up among upper middle class families in big U.S. cities - TWO highly educated professional wage-earners - is NOT yet the norm in Mexico, where there are far fewer women professionals, and where cultural norms still dictate that the man be the "breadwinner." So some of these professional D.F. men must be pulling down mucho dinero, two, three, or more times what I am making, and my salary would certainly be considered "good."



I doubt that you'd find that teaching, even at the kind of upper-echelon school you'll be working at, is the profession of choice for upper-middle-class Mexicans, especially not for Mexican men. Your salary is really, really good, but only for teaching.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Pure said:


> I'm also starting a new job at a school, I was happy to get a monthly food allowance in my benefit package. Every little helps!


I'll have a food card, to; I had one in Culiacan. It truly does help.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> I doubt that you'd find that teaching, even at the kind of upper-echelon school you'll be working at, is the profession of choice for upper-middle-class Mexicans, especially not for Mexican men. Your salary is really, really good, but only for teaching.


That makes sense. In the Unites States, elementary schools are female-dominated, but middle schools and high schools split about 50/50 between male and female employees. However, my prepa in Culiacan was 75% female employees, easily. There were more men over in the university division.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> That makes sense. In the Unites States, elementary schools are female-dominated, but middle schools and high schools split about 50/50 between male and female employees. However, my prepa in Culiacan was 75% female employees, easily. There were more men over in the university division.


Mexico is still a very sexist society, and this is reflected in pay scales for professions where women predominate, hence the high proportion of female teachers to male teachers in most schools. What is a university division of a prepa?


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> Mexico is still a very sexist society, and this is reflected in pay scales for professions where women predominate, hence the high proportion of female teachers to male teachers in most schools. What is a university division of a prepa?


It is more like the prepa division of a university. Tecnologico de Monterrey is a university with 31 campuses, many of which also house prepas.

EDIT: Regarding the "sexist society," I really work hard in my classes, World History in particular, to teach with an awareness of women's experiences and contributions, and I self-identify to all my students as "a male feminist teacher." I've had any number of female students express gratitude for this approach.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Maybe they "moonlight" on the side.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

PatrickMurtha said:


> That is interesting about the banks. I'm not complaining about my pay - it's definitely in the upper tier for international teaching and for Mexico in particular. But if I were trying to support a family, it wouldn't go very far at all. And I would suppose that the normal set-up among upper middle class families in big U.S. cities - TWO highly educated professional wage-earners - is NOT yet the norm in Mexico, where there are far fewer women professionals, and where cultural norms still dictate that the man be the "breadwinner." So some of these professional D.F. men must be pulling down mucho dinero, two, three, or more times what I am making, and my salary would certainly be considered "good."


In the larger international financial institutions the pay at senior levels is reasonable comparable with Europe (I can't compare to the US as I have never lived or worked there). In my company there is a reasonably healthy representation of women at sub-director and director level and many of these are in couples where both work at similar levels and earn good salaries. However, the pay divide between Director and more junior staff is very large.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

JoanneR2 said:


> In the larger international financial institutions the pay at senior levels is reasonable comparable with Europe (I can't compare to the US as I have never lived or worked there). In my company there is a reasonably healthy representation of women at sub-director and director level and many of these are in couples where both work at similar levels and earn good salaries. However, the pay divide between Director and more junior staff is very large.


There is also the freebie of a car after a certain level which is carefully measured by your position in the company or bank as to what type of car conforms to your position. Then, after a certain level one gets a chauffeur thrown in for good measure which is very often used by the wife at home to take the kids to school and then for the shopping. There are also in certain places what could be called legal tax dodges where the cost of plane tickets can be returned.


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Justina said:


> There is also the freebie of a car after a certain level which is carefully measured by your position in the company or bank as to what type of car conforms to your position. Then, after a certain level one gets a chauffeur thrown in for good measure which is very often used by the wife at home to take the kids to school and then for the shopping. There are also in certain places what could be called legal tax dodges where the cost of plane tickets can be returned.


That is all fascinating, exactly the kind of information that is really interesting to know!


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## Anonimo (Apr 8, 2012)

Patrick, what is a food card, and how does it work?


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## PatrickMurtha (Feb 26, 2011)

Anonimo said:


> Patrick, what is a food card, and how does it work?


It is like a credit card. Mine from Tec de Monterrey was issued by BBVA Bancomer and sports the VISA logo. It has "Mi Despensa" on the front. The school put about 1,500 pesos on the card per month as part of my compensation package. It is good at major grocery stores including Wal-Mart, possibly at OXXO too, I don't remember. You cannot use it to make a pure alcohol purchase, but I have bought beer as part of a larger order with it (ditto DVDs, magazines, etc.). It is a very nice benefit.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

PatrickMurtha said:


> It is like a credit card. Mine from Tec de Monterrey was issued by BBVA Bancomer and sports the VISA logo. It has "Mi Despensa" on the front. The school put about 1,500 pesos on the card per month as part of my compensation package. It is good at major grocery stores including Wal-Mart, possibly at OXXO too, I don't remember. You cannot use it to make a pure alcohol purchase, but I have bought beer as part of a larger order with it (ditto DVDs, magazines, etc.). It is a very nice benefit.


What Patrick has described is a common benefit given to employees in Mexico. They are called "vales de despensa" in Spanish.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> What Patrick has described is a common benefit given to employees in Mexico. They are called "vales de despensa" in Spanish.


Is that what PRI was giving out during the last election?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Is that what PRI was giving out during the last election?


I think so. But they were a one-shot deal, while most _vales_ are a continuing job benefit.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> I think so. But they were a one-shot deal, while most _vales_ are a continuing job benefit.


I used to see those vouchers quite often in Walmart and a couple of other supermarkets in Mexicali and TJ years ago. I found out only the Japanese companies handed them out as a bonus for good work, no late days every month, etc.

After most of the Japanese companies moved out I would see them rarely. Some Japanese companies did remain. Those companies also hired busses to transport employees to work from different pick up locations. That almost stopped also.

Now there are mostly American companies but I heard Nissan is planning on building an assembly plant in TJ soon.


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## JoanneR2 (Apr 18, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> I think so. But they were a one-shot deal, while most vales are a continuing job benefit.


I believe that they are used because up to a certain amount (1600 pesos a month?) they are tax free, so it is an easy way for companies to increase basic salaries without the employee being liable for tax.


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## DLGMEX (Jan 30, 2014)

Here in Benito Juárez, I'd suggest a week or so to explore your intended area... most properties in the Gran Manzana display for rent signs and come and go quickly... try some of the Auto-hotels which typically are cheap, clean, safe for a preliminary stay...

My esposa hermosa worked at DelaSalle for many years and commuted each day from here near the Villa de Cortés metro... with parking provided by the school, about 20-30 minutes depending on the hour...

Me, I think the Metro is GREAT... Zocalo in 20 minutes or less...

Suerte


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Those vales de despensa are not issued by PRI or any other political party, they are bought from companies for their employees to some companies that sells them and have arranged with some stores to be able to trade them for items, mainly food


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