# Cuernavaca Pros and Cons



## Guest

Hello All

My family (wife, young son and I) are contemplating a move to a new part of Mexico.

We have been in Puerto Vallarta for the last 9 months and whilst we see the nice aspects and have enjoyed the beaches, the overwhelming heat in the summer months and the inflexible snowbird retirees here have made us re-think our location. 

We love Mexico, it's people and culture but want more of that and not the snowbird gringos and all the hanging-on that goes on around that. We speak Spanish and like to integrate but Puerto Vallarta is a place for those who want Mexico US-style...

So some friends recommended Cuernavaca, La Paz (Baja) and Merida.

We have been to Merida and loved the Yucatan feel but it is too remote for us and we want to be near things. La Paz seems equally remote so Cuernavaca is the top choice.

I'd like to ask everyone here how they feel about Cuernavaca.

Weather - I hear it is fantastic!
Housing - (what can you get for up to $1,000 per month)
Parks - (we miss them as PV has none)
Schools - our son is 4 so time to start school but where?
Culture - art, museums, food and drink - is it good or feels like a weekend DF haunt as others have called Cuernavaca?

If not Cuernavaca, where for what we want?

Amy comments, negative or positive, are all appreciated ....

Charlie


----------



## Longford

The answer to "Where" depends on factors and things we don't know about you. Where I usually start when someone asks this sort of question is to ask what level of fluency they've attained with Spanish. Having the ability to speak and otherwise communicate in Spanish opens all of Mexico as possible relocation spots.

Considering what you have told us already, I would eliminate both Merida and Los Cabos from the list of possibilities. And I think Cuernavaca is boring and soul-less and, if this were my decision, I would eliminate it as well.

I'm thinking you might want to focus your attention on the Western or Central Highlands of Mexico. Someplace in the states of Zacatecas. Aguascalientes, Michoacan (principally Morelia), Guanajuato and Queretaro. A little further SW I'd toss-in Chilapa, Guerrero.

The only way to learn which is right for you, no matter the destination(s) under consideration, is to make some "familiarization trips," and spend some time in them, do additional research on the www, etc. Because what's right for me or the next person responding could easily be the wrong choice for you.

Best of luck with your considerations.


----------



## circle110

I agree with Longford's opinion of Cuernavaca. It doesn't call to us at all as a place to live when we have visited.

I also agree with his suggestions of places to check out. Since it sounds like you are looking for an urban experience, I would say the cities of Morelia, Queretaro and Guanajuato fit the bill. I have yet to visit Zacatecas or Aguascalientes so I can't comment from experience but from what I have heard, they would be worth investigating too.

Since we live in Guanajuato, I can offer some input there:

Weather - Almost as good as Cuernavaca, maybe slightly cooler.
Housing - You can rent a glorious house for $1000 per month. We have a nice 3 bedroom in a pleasant neighborhood for $420.
Parks - This is something we miss as well. Guanajuato has no parks.
Schools - There is a highly regarded private primaria/secundaria that is not overly expensive.
Culture - High marks here for everything but food. You have to search a bit to find the gem restaurants since all the obvious ones in the touristic center of town are mediocre at best.

Guanajuato is by far the smallest of the cities mentioned. It definitely has a feel of "las provincias". We call it "el rancho" sometimes. It isn't a pure urban experience at all. Sometimes this is frustrating and sometimes it is a good thing depending on what we want to do or our mood of the day.


----------



## sparks

For questions on rent and school you could start with this Yahoo Group
CuernAds : Cuernavaca Ads Email Exchange
There is also a newcomers club 

I like Cuernavaca for weather, night life and closeness to DF but it does feel like a bedroom community and is a bit cramped. For cool weather and not too many gringos I'd try the Morelia/Patzcuaro area.

Colima is a favorite of mine except for the summer heat. Almost no gringos, nice layout, good parks, college town and good hospitals. Countryside is beautiful and an hour to the beach


----------



## TundraGreen

I agree with both responders that any of the cities of central Mexico might good options to explore. The elevation gets you away from the summer heat near the coasts. The higher cities can be cold in the winter. 

An obvious candidate that hasn't been mentioned is Guadalajara. It is a little lower than places like Zacatecas, Queretaro, or Morelia and hence a little warmer in January. It also has the best parks of any place I have visited. There are several within the city, Parque Metropolitano, Parque Colomos, and a few others. Then there is Bosque la Primavera, an undeveloped area of about 30,000 hectares (75,000 acres), about 15 km (10 miles) in diameter. It is located right next to the city, but is very lightly used.


----------



## Hermana

*Cuernavaca*

Weather - Beautiful ten months out of the year. April and May are the hottest months, the end of the dry season, high around 100 F. are typical.

Housing - quite expensive. But you should be able to get something nice for the amount you mentioned.

Parks - I miss them too. There are hardly any here. However the zoo (Parque Ecologico Chapultepec) is a nice natural setting with a jogging path, lots of trees, a stream, and a small lake. The nearby town of Tepoztlan is beautiful also.

Schools - the private school system is excellent, including schools which teach in English or bilingual English/Spanish.

Culture - there are many, many cultural activities and places to go. The children's museum, for example, (Papalote Cuernavaca) is incredible.

I have lived here seven years and I love it. It is not the paradise it was when I moved here (at that time you could walk outside alone at midnight without fear), because of an increase in crime. But I still feel as safe here as I do in most any American city.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## stilltraveling

The weather in Cuernavaca is great . . . . as long as you're near downtown. Below downtown it gets very VERY hot and north of Tlaltenango it gets very cold. They built the city on the side of a mountain so the temperature varies with altitude. The "Eterna Primavery" Humboldt wrote about only applies to the altitude at the level of downtown. 

There's a wonderful Waldorf School in Santa Maria (it's also the training center for all Waldorf teachers in Latin America). All my kids went to Waldorf Schools so I'm a bit biased on that issue. It's a great program. My oldest got into UCLA when she was 16, so I guess it was worth it. There are a lot of other schools in the area (Juan Bosco is another one with a good reputation), but I don't know much about them. 

I'm not sure what $1000 per month will get you. I live in an apartment because I live alone and don't need the space, so I pay less than half that. Apartments are hard to find in real estate listings, but you'd probably have a better time looking for a house. The thing is, the houses here tend to be HUGE (and many with beautiful courtyard gardens). I don't know what the rent would be on those types of places. 

Incidentally, the food here sucks. There's no other way to say it. This is the black hole of Mexican cuisine.


----------



## cuylers5746

*A completely different approach*



CharlieAustin said:


> Hello All
> 
> My family (wife, young son and I) are contemplating a move to a new part of Mexico.
> 
> We have been in Puerto Vallarta for the last 9 months and whilst we see the nice aspects and have enjoyed the beaches, the overwhelming heat in the summer months and the inflexible snowbird retirees here have made us re-think our location.
> 
> We love Mexico, it's people and culture but want more of that and not the snowbird gringos and all the hanging-on that goes on around that. We speak Spanish and like to integrate but Puerto Vallarta is a place for those who want Mexico US-style...
> 
> So some friends recommended Cuernavaca, La Paz (Baja) and Merida.
> 
> We have been to Merida and loved the Yucatan feel but it is too remote for us and we want to be near things. La Paz seems equally remote so Cuernavaca is the top choice.
> 
> I'd like to ask everyone here how they feel about Cuernavaca.
> 
> Weather - I hear it is fantastic!
> Housing - (what can you get for up to $1,000 per month)
> Parks - (we miss them as PV has none)
> Schools - our son is 4 so time to start school but where?
> Culture - art, museums, food and drink - is it good or feels like a weekend DF haunt as others have called Cuernavaca?
> 
> If not Cuernavaca, where for what we want?
> 
> Amy comments, negative or positive, are all appreciated .
> 
> Hi Charlie;
> 
> If you like a small town atmosphere, but close to large city conveniences - and you haven't made known your preference? Well you could check out;
> 
> 1.) Axtlica, Puebla is a nice small town, which is S.E of Volcano Popo...., about an hour east of Cuernavaca and about an hour SW of Puebla, Puebla. They vie with Cuernavaca as having the absolute best Spring Time all the time climate in Mexico. Old, old town with an old convent on a big hill over looking the town and pretty country side around there. Majestic views of Volcano El Popo from it's back side.
> 
> 2.) Tlaxcala, Tlaxcala (sp?) about an hour north of Puebla, Puebla (my absolute favorite large city in Mexico), but a small, clean, pretty Capital City. Large Haciendas in out skirts, much history. It does get quite cold in the winter time - seems to suffer in my opinion from the Midwest USA Syndrome (nothing much to stop the cold north winds). But you're only about an hour too from D.F. So, it has all the ammenities of a Capital City, but small town feel, much history and very pretty. It's the Capital of one of the smallest states in Mexico.
> 
> 3.) Cuidad Guzman; about 100K inhabitants, SE of Guadalajara and within an hours drive. Very nice weather there as it's up high like Guad. , and another Ex-Pat couple visiting from WPB, FL. stopped in there after visiting several cities mentioned in preivous posts - rented a condo for a month and haven't been heard from since. I take that as a good sign, they like the place?
> 
> I hope this helps. By the way I share your feelings about PV and more. Great place to visit, vacation and have fun, but too many people crammed up against those majestic mountains and the sea. It's doesn't have the non resort Mexican feel to it. Oh, an they're building 5,000 more Infonovit homes up the river separating Jalisco and Nayarit. If you have acquired a lot of friends, and still like to spend part of your year in PV, come up and visit Tepic, which is just a normal Mexican City with a better climate than the coast at 2750 ft. elevation, is a Socialistic run City. Personally I like being within an hour of;
> 1.) Great uncrowded beaches. During the week, I usually get my own point break for surfing all to myself.
> 2.) Best Bass Fishing in all of Mexico at Agua Milpa.
> 3.) Nice Hot Springs in the Amatlan de Cana Valley east of here.
> 4.) All the conveniences of a Capital City and friendly people. A lot like the Hawains, but with
> a way better attitude to foreigners.
> 5.) CHEAP Living
> 6.) Now about 6 Universities here.
> 7.) Not a pristine city here though if you're used to that.
> 
> Cuyler


----------



## AlanMexicali

cuylers5746 said:


> CharlieAustin said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... come up and visit Tepic, which is just a normal Mexican City with a better climate than the coast at 2750 ft. elevation, is a Socialistic run City. Personally I like being within an hour of;
> 1.) Great uncrowded beaches. During the week, I usually get my own point break for surfing all to myself.
> 2.) Best Bass Fishing in all of Mexico at Agua Milpa.
> 3.) Nice Hot Springs in the Amatlan de Cana Valley east of here.
> 4.) All the conveniences of a Capital City and friendly people. A lot like the Hawains, but with
> a way better attitude to foreigners.
> 5.) CHEAP Living
> 6.) Now about 6 Universities here.
> 7.) Not a pristine city here though if you're used to that.
> 
> Cuyler
> 
> 
> 
> Cuyler. My wife and I spent a couple of days in Tepic when driving back from spending New Years in PV 2 years ago and have to agree with your description. That is what my take of the place was. You forgot to mention how pretty the girls are there. What about every restaurant giving us a fruit platter with every meal, and the juiciest fruit at that? Not even on the menus. Very nice touch.
> 
> My retired friend from San Diego is looking at economical cities to live in Mexico and I recommended Tepic as one of the best bets for all the reasons you do. This can´t be a coincidence.
> 
> I agree about PV being too small for my likes and etc. to live there year round for me. Zihuatanejo had a better feel to it all around, I thought.
Click to expand...


----------



## Longford

Tlaxcala, Tlaxcala is a destination I unfortunately overlooked, and which is mentioned at #8 above. I like it a lot and it's within very easy reach of both Puebla and Mexico City ... for the "big city" things one might need.


----------



## Guest

THank you all so much for the feedback....

I understand that a short trip to feel out the places is important but in the meantime, to get a top 3 for ideas, here are some points to clarify and help the discussion:

1. My Spanish is fluent so no problems there. My wife's is far from but we like to be amongst Spanish speakers rather than hear American.

2. Food - ummm, interesting about the food in Cuernavaca according to "still traveling"... yes, we are foodies and unfortunately we find most food in Mexico a black hole. As we are not American, I guess we did not grow up with the Mexican influence and we prefer almost any European or Asian food (My wife is Thai) to Mexican food. There are some notable exceptions but generally we find Mexican food stodgy and repetitive... The thing we love here is the availability of fresh ingredients and the low price so we mainly cook at home! IS the food is Cuernavaca really worst than most places on Mexico?

3. In terms of priorities, I would say parks and outdoor space are right up there. The problem with PV is there is no-where to go at all. The Malecon is nice to stroll but it is not that long and then what? I like to cycle too and find even my hoe city of London fantastic for that and miss it. The parks are crucial for us to get out and walk/ramble around...

4. Some cities already mentioned, we know:

Queretaro - we spent some time there and liked it. Beautiful centre and nice suburbs BUT the temperature crashed to near zero in December for three months and nowhere even has heating. We could not take that!

Guadalajara - we really don't like GDL. It ticks all the boxes on paper but in reality is an awful city imho. The worst roads possible, dirty and polluted ad everyone we met who went there or lived there felt the same. It is a shame as size and weather are good.....

PLease keep the ideas and pros and cons coming.... I would like to take some time around the short list soon so your ideas are really appreciated to save some wasted journeys.

Warm regards

Charlie


----------



## cuylers5746

*Tlaxcala*



Longford said:


> Tlaxcala, Tlaxcala is a destination I unfortunately overlooked, and which is mentioned at #8 above. I like it a lot and it's within very easy reach of both Puebla and Mexico City ... for the "big city" things one might need.


Hi Longford;

Yea, you're exactly right. I was surprised how well I liked the downtown area. Made me feel I was in a very nice well kept Pueblito - but of course it's not a Pueblito at all but a Capital City. Just like Florida has the Newy Yorkers & New Englander's retiring in SE from Miami up to WPB, and Mid Westerners from Newport Richy, Tampa, Orlando area, and Hill Billies (affectionally said) around the Daytona area north.

Well, Tlaxcala seems to attract upper Mid Westerners and a few Canadians (maybe because it's cooler there in the Winter)? Often time's those that it attracts are well healed.

Puebla too. I wouldn't live there - we have relatives there to go and visit and see it from an insider's view - just delightful. I wouldn't live there because of the crime and very skilled scammer's that take residence there. It seem's to be an escape point for wealthy Chilango's. I mean how many Mexican Cities have a Ferrari Dealership in them? I was so surprised at how many Europeans like to go there on their summer vacations. That should tell you some thing?

I just love the food so much there. I mean with the French Influence still left over, and the Arab influence in the food along with some tropical delights that escaped up from Jalapa and Vera Cruz too. It's quite different. It's been a favorite since Madam Calderon's time? The Talavera tiles on the down town buildings, hip life style up on the latest, but not so congestive, poluted and out of control like D.F. Great economy with that huge VW Plant there and others.

I left out Vera Cruz for visiting from this area too. They say with the new Toll Road you can get to Vera Cruz in 50 mins? Oh, and how about Oaxaca, Oaxaca City. My cunado got back from a trip earlier this year and said they have a bee line Toll Road from Puebla - Oaxaca Cities that can get you there in less than 3 hours.

Definitely go check out Tlaxcala for many reasons.

But truthfully anyone's search for their little corner of Paradise here in Mexico must first sit down with the whole family and do the "System Engineering" on it. That way you'll at least get the first part at least 90% correct. What did every member of the family enjoy doing in the USA? What have they been longing to do that wasn't there where they lived in the USA? What climate did you like? What elevation did you like? Large cosmopolitan City, Mid sized, small town? Near the coast?In the mountains? Near fishing? On a lake? Near many Golf Courses? The list can get lengthy. Good schools and environment for the kids?

I say that as people seem to gravitate to certain places - even if they don't realize why? For instance, I discovered after living in Tepic 4-5 years that it's the exact elevation that I grew up as a child during school years, and later lived in my late 30's. Some coincidence? Heck, I don't know? Any Shrinks on the forum want to explain that one?

Then pare it down making the realization that once you get over 50, life get's a whole lot simpler!
What used to hit your hot buttons years ago becomes pase and there's a lot smaller bunch of buttons you've discovered, that you really like punched. Concentrate on those.

One other note; Mexico will really interfere with the natural Biological urge of those over 50? That urge being; you spent the first 50 years acquiring things, property, money, material goods. The natural course of events is to then after 50 start getting rid of those things making your life simpler until you make that final journey where you can't take anything with you at all! Well everything is so different down here and the Arts, Crafts are so rich. We purposely brought only a minimum of furniture with us and things to put on the wall. We've been collecting things for over the last 10 years as we travel for our house. How many of you reading this forum can truthfully state that they haven't fallen victem to this malady?

Go ahead and make the mistake of finding Shangrala (but rent first), then discovering the wife really can't live without being within 30 minutes of a nice fancy modern mall. Heck life's just two things if you con't plan on joining the Monestary; painting your picture of life and enjoying yourself as you've earned it while helping your loved ones.

Cuyler


----------



## cuylers5746

*Jalapa, Vera Cruz*



CharlieAustin said:


> THank you all so much for the feedback....
> 
> I understand that a short trip to feel out the places is important but in the meantime, to get a top 3 for ideas, here are some points to clarify and help the discussion:
> 
> 1. My Spanish is fluent so no problems there. My wife's is far from but we like to be amongst Spanish speakers rather than hear American.
> 
> 2. Food - ummm, interesting about the food in Cuernavaca according to "still traveling"... yes, we are foodies and unfortunately we find most food in Mexico a black hole. As we are not American, I guess we did not grow up with the Mexican influence and we prefer almost any European or Asian food (My wife is Thai) to Mexican food. There are some notable exceptions but generally we find Mexican food stodgy and repetitive... The thing we love here is the availability of fresh ingredients and the low price so we mainly cook at home! IS the food is Cuernavaca really worst than most places on Mexico?
> 
> 3. In terms of priorities, I would say parks and outdoor space are right up there. The problem with PV is there is no-where to go at all. The Malecon is nice to stroll but it is not that long and then what? I like to cycle too and find even my hoe city of London fantastic for that and miss it. The parks are crucial for us to get out and walk/ramble around...
> 
> 4. Some cities already mentioned, we know:
> 
> Queretaro - we spent some time there and liked it. Beautiful centre and nice suburbs BUT the temperature crashed to near zero in December for three months and nowhere even has heating. We could not take that!
> 
> Guadalajara - we really don't like GDL. It ticks all the boxes on paper but in reality is an awful city imho. The worst roads possible, dirty and polluted ad everyone we met who went there or lived there felt the same. It is a shame as size and weather are good.....
> 
> PLease keep the ideas and pros and cons coming.... I would like to take some time around the short list soon so your ideas are really appreciated to save some wasted journeys.
> 
> Warm regards
> 
> Charlie


Hey Charlie;

I didn't realize you're from London. One of my best buddies in life Stephen Leek is from Ringwood, U.K. and is probably one of the top 25 Commercial Photographers in the USA. Moved to E.E.U.U. when 11 and hasn't missed a lick with the ole accent.

Well put Jalapa on your list too. It's one of the top 7-8 destinations to retire. It's up in the mountains from Vera Cruz, and the small Capital of that State. We have some 2nd cousins that live there, we want to visit. They tell us about it. It's kind of like set in ravines, and gets a lot of tropical fog? Some great restaurants, museums, parks. Oh, and only 1 hour west of Puebla for all the night life, and everything I listed in a previous post. 

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

*Update*

Hello again

I thank you all again for the contributions. It's really fascinating at an anthropological level to listen to all the stories and recommendations and most of all, inspiring to see the positive feel you all have for Mexico.

A little background - 

I am getting of the age where I need to stop moving. I have the travel bug and am a travel photo journalist so would be happily on the road all the time. I speak quite a few languages too so I can go almost anywhere. My wife is the opposite - homely, and of course with our son now just 4 we want to think about settling down because of his schooling amongst other reasons.

I am from London but have lived all over the world and most recently spent 9 heads in Asia based in Thailand. I lived in Pattaya (a little too much sleaze in the end but great for starting a business), Hua Hin (so sleepy and too dangerous) and then Bangkok (too polluted and lacking in any outdoor space whatsoever). We decided for many reasons mainly schooling and sleaze, we would go elsewhere. After 6 months in London seek my ailing mother (probably one last time) and my son in Munich, we moved to Mexico. Why? Who knows? But for a Brit with a Thai wife, visa issues are a constraint, I always loved Latin American culture and I guess I wanted to live in the only continent zi haven't yet. Speaking the language helps and looking at cultures and availability of things, whilst the US relations are in some ways an evil they do bring Costco and cheap cars, I guess.

We were convinced to try Merida. Tried it but after seeing so little real culture, terrible food and only one real street in town, we could not handle it. Funny story - one night we were searching for dinner near the Catedral and in the end I gave up and asked a local in Spanish. His reply was tht there is nowhere nice to eat. That did it for us.... We skipped Cancun, tried Palaya Del Carmen (too much just a beach and a few roads and nightmare town planning), Puerto Aventuras (too small), then drive all across Mexico stopping in VillaHermosa (neither Villa nor Hermosa as my friend laughed!).

We stopped in Puebla but had a bad experience. Pouring rain, nightmare hotel and it all seemed very built up and too industrial but in fairness I do remember the pretty central areas. In reality, we were quite set on Queretaro. We were told how nice it is so we drove straight there and by now my son and wife were stressed with the roads!

Queretaro ticked all the boxes until it got so, so cold one night and we froze and the thought of no heating in a home for 3 months of the year reminded us why we were in Mexico and not the UK - climate, climate, climate...

So then Guadalajara was may too dirty and polluted and arriving in PV we thought we had found paradise. Of course it was December and fantastic weather. Now after 9 months I think the climate here is terrible overall. We are in almost the 6th straight month of sweltering humid heat which only lowers slightly with the daily thunderstorms. Whoever could live here all year round needs a medal! When it rains the humidity soars. Also, PV is quite dull with little or no culture of the sort we would like and most of all, has no outdoor space.

It is nice being near the sea but we have also realised that anywhere in the world, that brings scammers, tourist rip offs and a huge floating population of those looking to make a quick buck. We know this from Thailand most of all.

So to summarise -

Location - near culture, airports, in medium sized city or outskirts of big city and not near sea. Seaside for us is for holidays.
Climate - cannot fall below 10c ish or get over 35c. Sorry, I don't know old money for that but I guess it means we want a year-round reasonably moderate climate. Seasons are ok but no big chills and no big swelters. Mid range humidity is good. Queretaro would be right at the top of the dry scale for us and of course, PV way, way too humid most of the time...
Parks - this is essential. My wife wants to walk with our son and I want to cycle. As said before, can be natural or urban and preferably both Byatt to walk outdoors is crucial.
Schooling - as long as the schools and general standards are good, we will find a way through so choice is key or at least one or two good ones.
Ethnicity - a nice mix along with the local Mexicans. Not too many of any one natonality, ideally.
Nice to haves - lots of culture, good food, closeby airport, affordable housing, nice food and nice people!

I think this should be enough to narrow down the list!

So far, I have (In no order):

Tepic ?
Guadalajara - no. Too dirty/polluted.
Guanajuato ?
Queretaro - no. Too cold in winter.
Puebla ?
Tlaxcala ?
Cuernavaca ?
Aguascalientes ?
Morelia ?
Zacatecas ?
Colima ?

Please let me know which of these or others fits the bill!

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey Charlie;
> 
> I didn't realize you're from London. One of my best buddies in life Stephen Leek is from Ringwood, U.K. and is probably one of the top 25 Commercial Photographers in the USA. Moved to E.E.U.U. when 11 and hasn't missed a lick with the ole accent.
> 
> Well put Jalapa on your list too. It's one of the top 7-8 destinations to retire. It's up in the mountains from Vera Cruz, and the small Capital of that State. We have some 2nd cousins that live there, we want to visit. They tell us about it. It's kind of like set in ravines, and gets a lot of tropical fog? Some great restaurants, museums, parks. Oh, and only 1 hour west of Puebla for all the night life, and everything I listed in a previous post.
> 
> Cuyler


Hi Cuyler

Good to hear you have a friend from the UK. We are all great chaps! haha

don't know him but do know Ringwood a bit not that it is a particularly big place. 

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## fjack1415

CharlieAustin said:


> Hello All
> 
> My family (wife, young son and I) are contemplating a move to a new part of Mexico.
> 
> We have been in Puerto Vallarta for the last 9 months and whilst we see the nice aspects and have enjoyed the beaches, the overwhelming heat in the summer months and the inflexible snowbird retirees here have made us re-think our location.
> 
> We love Mexico, it's people and culture but want more of that and not the snowbird gringos and all the hanging-on that goes on around that. We speak Spanish and like to integrate but Puerto Vallarta is a place for those who want Mexico US-style...
> 
> So some friends recommended Cuernavaca, La Paz (Baja) and Merida.
> 
> We have been to Merida and loved the Yucatan feel but it is too remote for us and we want to be near things. La Paz seems equally remote so Cuernavaca is the top choice.
> 
> I'd like to ask everyone here how they feel about Cuernavaca.
> 
> Weather - I hear it is fantastic!
> Housing - (what can you get for up to $1,000 per month)
> Parks - (we miss them as PV has none)
> Schools - our son is 4 so time to start school but where?
> Culture - art, museums, food and drink - is it good or feels like a weekend DF haunt as others have called Cuernavaca?
> 
> If not Cuernavaca, where for what we want?
> 
> Amy comments, negative or positive, are all appreciated ....
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie,

I have been living in PV for five years and I agree the summers here are rough. So we too (that is myself and my Mexican wife) have thought about moving to a location with an easier climate. Some years ago a friend of mine from Mexico City strongly recommended *Tepoztlán*, a town between DF and Cuernavaca that has a wonderful mild year round climate (Cortez would summer there) and is very pleasing with its precolombian and colonial aspects. Merida I should think would be worse than PV in the summer (hottter and with no beaches). In Baja, hot but drier, I should think. Cabo San Lucas very ******. Can't speak for La Paz, but you will be a long way from any major city. 

Now, I am rather attached to PV and am not sure about moving us entirely. Perhaps we will look for a little place in the mountains where we can have some farm animals and to which we can retire at times during the summer and at other times as well. We'll see. On your comment about snowbirds. I have been in Old Town (on the south side) and have enjoyed the fact that it primarily Mexican. There only is a large ****** component visible on the street in in restaurants during the peak winter months (but less so since the econonomic crisis). But it is nice also to get the mix here that includes well off and poor gringos and a large gay community. But aside from all this, I am in recovery, and I have grown enjoy the English speaking fellowship available to me in PV here on the south side. 

PS I never got to Tepoztlán. In 2007 I saw there was just a $166 airfare to PV, and that kind of did it. Ah, and with beaches too!!!


----------



## fjack1415

*Tepoztlán*] I read more of your posts above and have bacome more convinced that Tepoztlán might be just right for you. Climate, culture, and location. Yours, Frederick


----------



## Guest

Hello again

Can I ask for some clarification on the list below please...

So far, I have (in no order):

Tepic ?
Guadalajara - no. Too dirty/polluted.
Guanajuato ?
Queretaro - no. Too cold in winter.
Puebla ?
Tlaxcala ?
Cuernavaca ?
Aguascalientes ?
Morelia ?
Zacatecas ?
Colima ?
Tepoztlan ?

I hope we can narrow this down if anyone here can please either confirm or rule out the above to shorten the list...

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## circle110

Well, all of these cities are at the same or higher elevations than Queretaro so you will find them having just the same climate in December/January. If you can't stand the cold of Qto. you will find these as bad or worse:

Guanajuato 
Puebla 
Tlaxcala 
Aguascalientes 
Morelia 
Zacatecas
Tepoztlan


----------



## Guest

circle110 said:


> Well, all of these cities are at the same or higher elevations than Queretaro so you will find them having just the same climate in December/January. If you can't stand the cold of Qto. you will find these as bad or worse:
> 
> Guanajuato
> Puebla
> Tlaxcala
> Aguascalientes
> Morelia
> Zacatecas
> Tepoztlan


A good point.... Except Tepoztlan which would appear to be more moderate and closer to Cuernavaca weather than Queretaro. 

Tepoztlan, Morelos Travel Weather Averages (Weatherbase)

I guess we need to compromise on something but would prefer te warmer options!

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## circle110

The altitude of Tepotzlán is 2300 meters, the altitude of Queretaro is 1820. Cuernavaca is 1560.
I would imagine that it is even colder in Tepotzlán than in Queretaro and definitely much colder than Cuernavaca.

I suspect Tepotzlán is more like Mexico City since it is at the same elevation. It can get pretty frosty in DF during Dec/Jan.

Guanajuato, where I live, is at just over 2000 m. and although it gets a little nippy at times during those months, it passes quickly and by Feb. 15 it is glorious springtime. You may have been in Queretaro during an unusual cold snap since Qto. is warmer than Gto. in general.


----------



## AlanMexicali

circle110 said:


> The altitude of Tepotzlán is 2300 meters, the altitude of Queretaro is 1820. Cuernavaca is 1560.
> I would imagine that it is even colder in Tepotzlán than in Queretaro and definitely much colder than Cuernavaca.
> 
> I suspect Tepotzlán is more like Mexico City since it is at the same elevation. It can get pretty frosty in DF during Dec/Jan.
> 
> Guanajuato, where I live, is at just over 2000 m. and although it gets a little nippy at times during those months, it passes quickly and by Feb. 15 it is glorious springtime. You may have been in Queretaro during an unusual cold snap since Qto. is warmer than Gto. in general.


San Luis Potosi gets cold snaps and at night during them it can get down to 2 degrees C. but go out at noontime and the sun feels warm and the shade feels cool. It was extremely cool the winter of 2010/2011 some weeks but last winter only a few cold snaps. We just get used to it and enjoy everything in stride and dress cozy when it is cool inside, no big deal that there is no heat. A wool scarf does work and very stylish here.


----------



## circle110

AlanMexicali said:


> San Luis Potosi gets cold snaps and at night during them it can get down to 2 degrees C. but go out at noontime and the sun feels warm and the shade feels cool. It was extremely cool the winter of 2010/2011 some weeks but last winter only a few cold snaps. We just get used to it and enjoy everything in stride and dress cozy when it is cool inside, no big deal that there is no heat. A wool scarf does work and very stylish here.


I agree. Dress a little warmer and all is well. We haven't bought one yet but some folks get an electric space heater to combat those times when it gets a little too chilly.


----------



## AlanMexicali

circle110 said:


> I agree. Dress a little warmer and all is well. We haven't bought one yet but some folks get an electric space heater to combat those times when it gets a little too chilly.


If you get one of those oil filled radiator types you save on luz. They are even better on luz than the ceramic ones but do take a long time to heat up a room on low - 600 watts. On high they are not as efficient though. I keep the thermostat on low also. It just takes the chill out of the room which is what makes it more comfortable but dress warm still. In my bedroom I use a ceramic one on high for 1/2 an hour and turn it off before I go to bed.

I never went over the DAC rate to extreme usage since realizing if I heat 3 rooms to where I don´t need a jacket during cold snaps my luz costs $3,000.00 pesos/month. In Mexicali the bill is due every 30 days, not every 60 days like here in SLP. Now it is an obsession to keep it under extreme usage. I do the same with air conditioning when in Mexicali, but they have a 6 month window during the summer where our DAC is locked on the bottom tier there, very humanitarian of CFE, I feel.


----------



## fjack1415

circle110 said:


> The altitude of Tepotzlán is 2300 meters, the altitude of Queretaro is 1820. Cuernavaca is 1560.
> I would imagine that it is even colder in Tepotzlán than in Queretaro and definitely much colder than Cuernavaca.
> 
> I suspect Tepotzlán is more like Mexico City since it is at the same elevation. It can get pretty frosty in DF during Dec/Jan.
> 
> Guanajuato, where I live, is at just over 2000 m. and although it gets a little nippy at times during those months, it passes quickly and by Feb. 15 it is glorious springtime. You may have been in Queretaro during an unusual cold snap since Qto. is warmer than Gto. in general.


HMM, as Charlie wants to bicycle, I think Tepoztlán might be a bit too hilly for him (not that I have been there!) :confused2::confused2:


----------



## Guest

Thanks again for the feedback....

I am going to take a trip to check a few places out next week...

Please can I get some help narrowing down the short list?

Tepic ?
Guadalajara - no. Too dirty/polluted.
Guanajuato ?
Queretaro - no. Too cold in winter.
Puebla ?
Tlaxcala ?
Cuernavaca ?
Aguascalientes ?
Morelia ?
Zacatecas ?
Colima ?
Tepoztlan - Too hilly?

I note the comment it might be too hilly in Tepoztlan and the cooler weather up there. I want to fly up to Toluca, rent a car and drive around a few places. Any advice on a short list tour over a few days/week would be great....

Lastly, one thing I haven't touched on is safety. Any thoughts on which areas might be safer than others?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## fjack1415

Thanks Charlie for starting this thread on making a move to another city in Mexico! This has gotten me to thinking again about a move. I think in the next month or so will visit Colima. Not too far from the greatest beaches. And not all that far from Guadalajara and PV. HMM. But under a volcano? And someone said the summers are hot? 

It is sadlly true that in just the five years I have been here in PV there has been just too much building. Already there were the ugly high rises on the southern mountain, but now the destruction of the heart of the old city with the monstrous condo complex in the molina de agua. Several more high rises have been going up right here in the Romantic Zone. And what does the city government say about all this? "WE HAVE BEEN SPENDING MILLIONS TO PRESERVE THE OLD TOWN CHARM." (I paraphrase.) I rather think that government officials have been _receiving_ millions in graft just to do the opposite, to destroy that very charm!!!!


----------



## AlanMexicali

CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks again for the feedback....
> 
> I am going to take a trip to check a few places out next week...
> 
> Please can I get some help narrowing down the short list?
> 
> Tepic ?
> Guadalajara - no. Too dirty/polluted.
> Guanajuato ?
> Queretaro - no. Too cold in winter.
> Puebla ?
> Tlaxcala ?
> Cuernavaca ?
> Aguascalientes ?
> Morelia ?
> Zacatecas ?
> Colima ?
> Tepoztlan - Too hilly?
> 
> I note the comment it might be too hilly in Tepoztlan and the cooler weather up there. I want to fly up to Toluca, rent a car and drive around a few places. Any advice on a short list tour over a few days/week would be great....
> 
> Lastly, one thing I haven't touched on is safety. Any thoughts on which areas might be safer than others?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charlie


What about San Luis Potosi? Not more than hundreds of foriegners here according to INM officials and the US consulate which thinks most of these are from Europe. San Luis Potosi is safe, at the moment. 

There are many parks and 2 enormous ones and it is flat. Also bicyclist galor. You could have races through the busy streets with the Albañiles on their bicycles, they do. It is lots of fun to watch, especially in El Centro at rush hour dodging busses and cars. They stop for no man or beast, just plow right into them.


----------



## Anonimo

Morelia: (we don't live there, but go there very frequently.)

Centro: beautiful Spanish architecture, hellish traffic, some pollution. Some good restaurants. Parks and plazas abound. Nice areas but also some well worn and unattractive neighborhoods. Morelia is sprawling.

Other areas of Morelia, such as Santa María de Guido, up on a high ridge, overlooking the city. Small town feel, quieter, large, expensive old homes, some modern, new construction condos. I have no idea of the rent prices. If I was to want to move to Morelia, and had the funds, I would start looking in Santa María. Gets cold in winter, but not as cold as Pátzcuaro and environs.


----------



## sparks

Tepoztlan is tiny and cramped. It's a zoo on weekends and everybody and their mothers are selling parking places for the influx from Mexico City and Cuernavaca. Interesting to visit but would never live there


----------



## fjack1415

CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks again for the feedback....
> 
> I am going to take a trip to check a few places out next week...
> 
> Please can I get some help narrowing down the short list?
> 
> Tepic ?
> Guadalajara - no. Too dirty/polluted.
> Guanajuato ?
> Queretaro - no. Too cold in winter.
> Puebla ?
> Tlaxcala ?
> Cuernavaca ?
> Aguascalientes ?
> Morelia ?
> Zacatecas ?
> Colima ?
> Tepoztlan - Too hilly?
> 
> I note the comment it might be too hilly in Tepoztlan and the cooler weather up there. I want to fly up to Toluca, rent a car and drive around a few places. Any advice on a short list tour over a few days/week would be great....
> 
> Lastly, one thing I haven't touched on is safety. Any thoughts on which areas might be safer than others?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charlie


I just checked with Wikipedia and took a virtual tour of Colima with Google Earth, and the only thing I see to recommend it is a very attractive central square, lots of parks, and being flat for bicycling. Otherwise a very plain place. Atlitude is 550 m, so it is going to get hot. And it is going to be quite far from an airport. Can't imagine much in the way of culture. I am already forgetting this as a candidate town for myself. And I should think for you too, Charlie.


----------



## fjack1415

fjack1415 said:


> I just checked with Wikipedia and took a virtual tour of Colima with Google Earth, and the only thing I see to recommend it is a very attractive central square, lots of parks, and being flat for bicycling. Otherwise a very plain place. Atlitude is 550 m, so it is going to get hot. And it is going to be quite far from an airport. Can't imagine much in the way of culture. I am already forgetting this as a candidate town for myself. And I should think for you too, Charlie.


Likewise took a virtual tour of Tepoztlan, and it seems that while surrounded by mountains, the town itself is in the middle of a flat valley. The tour gave me a good feeling, and so I think you should keep this town high up on your list. :focus:


----------



## Anonimo

I don't think that you can fairly assess the cultural level of a town or city from the perspective of a Google Map or a virtual tour. You have to be there a while to get a fair estimate of its cultural offerings. But you can usually count on a rich offering of culture in a city that has one or more universities. I know that Colima does, and Morelia has several. Our more active than us expat friends in Pátzcuaro often go to two cultural events a week in Morelia, and several more at home in Pátzcuaro.


----------



## sparks

fjack1415 said:


> I just checked with Wikipedia and took a virtual tour of Colima with Google Earth, and the only thing I see to recommend it is a very attractive central square, lots of parks, and being flat for bicycling. Otherwise a very plain place. Atlitude is 550 m, so it is going to get hot. And it is going to be quite far from an airport. Can't imagine much in the way of culture. I am already forgetting this as a candidate town for myself. And I should think for you too, Charlie.


A Virtual Tour and you write a review .... sorry but that is total BS. Colima has notable museums and a very rich history. The state is also very well off due to it's agriculture, shipping port and natural gas port. Beautiful mountains/volcanoes and back roads.

Ignore this persons post is my suggestion


----------



## sparks

fjack1415 said:


> Likewise took a virtual tour of Tepoztlan, and it seems that while surrounded by mountains, the town itself is in the middle of a flat valley. The tour gave me a good feeling, and so I think you should keep this town high up on your list. :focus:


Tepoztlan is not in a flat valley .... it's in a hole. People who make virtual tour reviews should be banned from posting here. This is not a helpful poster


----------



## fjack1415

Anonimo said:


> I don't think that you can fairly assess the cultural level of a town or city from the perspective of a Google Map or a virtual tour. You have to be there a while to get a fair estimate of its cultural offerings. But you can usually count on a rich offering of culture in a city that has one or more universities. I know that Colima does, and Morelia has several. Our more active than us expat friends in Pátzcuaro often go to two cultural events a week in Morelia, and several more at home in Pátzcuaro.


Yes, good point(s). Yes, it is pretty primitive basing a judgement on a several minute virtual google earth tour. And yes, I forgot, I did read there were several universities there. Maybe I forgot, because my impression was (from the virtual tour) that the city was pretty small.


----------



## fjack1415

sparks said:


> Tepoztlan is not in a flat valley .... it's in a hole. People who make virtual tour reviews should be banned from posting here. This is not a helpful poster


Yes, not the best way for sure, but no one else was offering any information on this town, which I had considered moving to a number of years ago based on the recommendation of a Mexican friend. In a hole? You mean in a BOWL perhaps, with a flat enough bottom for a town.


----------



## Guest

fjack1415 said:


> Thanks Charlie for starting this thread on making a move to another city in Mexico! This has gotten me to thinking again about a move. I think in the next month or so will visit Colima. Not too far from the greatest beaches. And not all that far from Guadalajara and PV. HMM. But under a volcano? And someone said the summers are hot?
> 
> It is sadlly true that in just the five years I have been here in PV there has been just too much building. Already there were the ugly high rises on the southern mountain, but now the destruction of the heart of the old city with the monstrous condo complex in the molina de agua. Several more high rises have been going up right here in the Romantic Zone. And what does the city government say about all this? "WE HAVE BEEN SPENDING MILLIONS TO PRESERVE THE OLD TOWN CHARM." (I paraphrase.) I rather think that government officials have been _receiving_ millions in graft just to do the opposite, to destroy that very charm!!!!


On the contrary.

Thank you for all your kind help here...!

Charlie


----------



## Guest

AlanMexicali said:


> What about San Luis Potosi? Not more than hundreds of foriegners here according to INM officials and the US consulate which thinks most of these are from Europe. San Luis Potosi is safe, at the moment.
> 
> There are many parks and 2 enormous ones and it is flat. Also bicyclist galor. You could have races through the busy streets with the Albañiles on their bicycles, they do. It is lots of fun to watch, especially in El Centro at rush hour dodging busses and cars. They stop for no man or beast, just plow right into them.


You were just selling me on San Luis Potosi and then mention the dangers of the buses and trucks! haha Seriously?

Also, the security aspect concerns me. On today's BBC front page: 

BBC News - Mexico captures Zetas drug lord Ivan Velazquez Caballero

Do you feel it is safe otherwise? 

Please give more info on the parks etc as I have to get a short list together soon!

Charlie


----------



## Guest

fjack1415 said:


> I just checked with Wikipedia and took a virtual tour of Colima with Google Earth, and the only thing I see to recommend it is a very attractive central square, lots of parks, and being flat for bicycling. Otherwise a very plain place. Atlitude is 550 m, so it is going to get hot. And it is going to be quite far from an airport. Can't imagine much in the way of culture. I am already forgetting this as a candidate town for myself. And I should think for you too, Charlie.


Thanks for the teamwork...

I hope we can meet up soon here and chat face to face.

In the meantime, what is your shortlist so far?

Charlie


----------



## Guest

sparks said:


> A Virtual Tour and you write a review .... sorry but that is total BS. Colima has notable museums and a very rich history. The state is also very well off due to it's agriculture, shipping port and natural gas port. Beautiful mountains/volcanoes and back roads.
> 
> Ignore this persons post is my suggestion


Sparks, I think that is very unfair. The point here is we have to try somehow to put a shortlist together otherwise how do you validate any candidate or eliminate one without actually being there.

For me, I would look at the weather, use Google but most of all ask advice from people who have been there. The key thing is to make comparisons. If you ask someone what a pace is like how do you rate it apart form saying better worse than another place in certain aspects.

Either way, any comment here is helpful and should not be criticized. fjack is being very helpful in my opinion.

Charlie


----------



## AlanMexicali

CharlieAustin said:


> You were just selling me on San Luis Potosi and then mention the dangers of the buses and trucks! haha Seriously?
> 
> Also, the security aspect concerns me. On today's BBC front page:
> 
> BBC News - Mexico captures Zetas drug lord Ivan Velazquez Caballero
> 
> Do you feel it is safe otherwise?
> 
> Please give more info on the parks etc as I have to get a short list together soon!
> 
> Charlie


The traffic here has some odities I have not noticed elsewhere, so far and the very many motos and bicycles that are here is one of them. I also have never seen the habit of many motorists challenging cars that have the right of way to get out of their way to let them get into oncoming traffic by causing them to stop or slow down very fast in heavy or not heavy traffic in which case if they wait a second they could get in easily. They come right out of a side street into lanes of traffic and keep moving inches from the cars as if trying to butt in and I have seen many times cars and trucks having to swerve to miss them. 

They sometimes don´t paint dotted lines on multi-lane divided blvds. so it is a free for all which section of the road you drive on. They can´t paint on the many streets of cobblestone in the first place but choose not to paint on cement also someplaces.

The news suggests there was an ongoing vilgilance by the military and all police forces since a few weeks ago and when out I saw many patrols everywhere. They might have been looking for something and I guess they found at least one of them, so far. We had a Crowne Victoria parked at our residencia´s gate for 24 hours 2 weeks ago with undercover police in it.

The 2 huge parks {one was their old airport} are cool and a Google map search will show them. Very many parks and many fountains and 4 huge plazas 1 block apart. 

Weather similar to Queretaro. Some 1769 meters here, I think, can´t remember. El Centro possibly 3 times larger in area than Queretaro.

High hills all around the city on 3 sides. 

Large houses everywhere on the west side of town and the west side of El Centro.


----------



## AlanMexicali

4 plazas one block apart in El Centro, actually one is a large park with fountains. It used to be the Padres garden for the their monastary on the closest plaza where their church is about 300 years old or more.


----------



## Guest

San Luis Potosí sounds lovely but is if anything slightly colder all year around than Queretaro and since we found that too cold in winter, I'd have to rule to out which is a shame as the parks were looking really attractive....

Des anyone have a recommendation with parks/forests/outdoor space that is mild all year? Ie not cold in winter and not hot and humid in summer?

This seems to be the best starting point....

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## cuylers5746

*Colima*



CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks for the teamwork...
> 
> I hope we can meet up soon here and chat face to face.
> 
> In the meantime, what is your shortlist so far?
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

Colima is a really nice place to relocate IF you have some place in the north and cool like a Snow Bird from the USA after April. I believe it's hotter than PV, and ******'s/Canadians start heading north as early as April. Besides that, it's been voted no.1 by a National Mexico Poll of the place they'd most like to live. I wouldn't want to be there anywhere near the summer though.

We really enjoyed our stay there, but because of the heat would not move there.

Cuyler


----------



## sparks

CharlieAustin said:


> Sparks, I think that is very unfair. The point here is we have to try somehow to put a shortlist together otherwise how do you validate any candidate or eliminate one without actually being there.


Not at all .... what the heck is a report of a virtual trip thru Mexico without even a link or maybe never being there. On the ground reports can differ with how it actually feels ... but please don't base anything on Google Street Maps. If you have not been .... keep your mouth shut


----------



## Guest

sparks said:


> Not at all .... what the heck is a report of a virtual trip thru Mexico without even a link or maybe never being there. On the ground reports can differ with how it actually feels ... but please don't base anything on Google Street Maps. If you have not been .... keep your mouth shut


Well, you sound like exactly the sort of grumpy old expat I am trying to get away from. You are abrasive and seemingly quite opinionated. It wasn't even my post but I felt you were far too aggressive to the poster, so I made my comment, yet you tell me to keep my mouth shut or are you telling everyone but you they cannot have an opinion? Quite sad but thanks for your opinion, for what its worth...

Anyway, back to the constructive element in this forum, any more ideas? Cuyler, I will take a look at Colima too on google if sparks allows me! haha


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> Colima is a really nice place to relocate IF you have some place in the north and cool like a Snow Bird from the USA after April. I believe it's hotter than PV, and ******'s/Canadians start heading north as early as April. Besides that, it's been voted no.1 by a National Mexico Poll of the place they'd most like to live. I wouldn't want to be there anywhere near the summer though.
> 
> We really enjoyed our stay there, but because of the heat would not move there.
> 
> Cuyler


Hi Cuylers

I was checking the temperatures in Colima and it is hot but is it humid? It is actually the humidity that kills you in PV. Dry heat is fine..

Do you know what it is like?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## Guest

Colima - 

Colima, Colima, Mexico - City, Town and Village of the world

Tropical Savanna Climate - 

Tropical savanna climate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But I am struggling with the humidity factor....

I guess I can revise my search criteria now and change "not hot" to "not humid" as actually within reason, dry heat is fine.

Charlie


----------



## circle110

I'm afraid you won't find your dream climate in Mexico.

Mexican cities were generally built in two places: The central highlands and the coast.

The central highlands have 10 months a year of beautiful springtime and two chilly months.
The coastal cities have 10 months a year of summer weather and two months of intense heat.

Even the so called "perfect" Cuernavaca weather is only perfect in the town center. So unless you want to live in a tent on the zocalo, you will have to decide between the high side and the low side of town - each one being either hotter or colder than the ideal.

No matter where in Mexico you live, you will have to deal with a short uncomfortable period each year. I think that you need to ask yourself which will bother you less - the heat or the cold.

Also, make sure to factor in all the other aspects of a city that make living there great (or not) - culture, social activities, sporting activities, access to markets/shopping, the nature of the local people etc.

I lived in Chicago for almost 50 icy winters. I could have moved to Florida or San Diego or somewhere to escape the cold winters but I chose to stay in Chicago because it had more to offer me and I just learned to deal with the four brutal winter months because of all the other things the city had going for it. In comparison to Chicago, the chill of Dec/Jan in Guanajuato is nothing!!


----------



## cuylers5746

*Colima*



CharlieAustin said:


> Hi Cuylers
> 
> I was checking the temperatures in Colima and it is hot but is it humid? It is actually the humidity that kills you in PV. Dry heat is fine..
> 
> Do you know what it is like?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charlie


Hey Charlie;

I think besides the heat/humidity in the summer you'll like Colima a lot based upon what you wrote about your back ground on your and your family. I think PV is cooler in the summer because most days you get the air moving up the mountains then creates clouds and gets very cloudy at the hottest part of the day , partially blocking the sun - dropping the temperatures. Then you get your 4-5 PM Gully Washer rain, which cools things off. Most of the time Colima which is further south doesn't get that same effect as PV. Why do I think you'll enjoy Colima so much?

It's smaller, less congested for a Capital City. My impression was around 125 K inhabitants.
It's got a very educated populace and a good sized middle class, meaning there's a lot of
people you can meet and interesting conversations. Really beautiful parks just south of town. I mean really classly with great sculptures like parks you'd see in Europe with nice walking trails. Good museums too.

It exceedingly clean almost like San Miguel de Allende, with little grafti. It's got a cafe class
of society for entertaining and parties. 

It's got a big Charo Community. Send me your email address and I'll send you my pictures of there during a Charada. I know you're from London, but hey this is Mexico your prospective neighbors will take you in and make you an honorary Charo, taking you to their picnics etc.
[email protected]. I'll send you a Google invite to a great album I have from there. I was interested to learn that the National Sport of Mexico is not Soccer, but Charadas.

I just got such a hoot out of waking up each morning early so I could see the most unobscured views of Volcano Colima spouting off in the mornings. It seem's so much more close - and it is as it's only 18 miles NE of the city. Yet, you need something Colima doesn't have your less than 2 hours to Guadalajara by Toll Road to get it.

Now, here's something you can do. If it's too hot for you - go look for a little house or maybe buy some land high up on the slopes of the volcano and get up into cooler air. There are several small lakes up higher on the slopes, and I noticed a few Canadian's had built homes up there.
Follow the Canadian's as they know where it's cheaper and cooler usually. This is a compliment if any Canadian reads this. 

Or, go visit Cuidad Guzman which is about halfway between Colima, Colima and Guadalajara and up higher and cooler.

An added plus, one previous poster wrote about - great uncrowded beaches near by. You want excitement go down to Pascuales beach which is just on the the coast from the Capital Colima, sit under an beach umbrella when there's a 15 ft. swell, have a brew and watch the dare devils surf this famous beach break. I know a guy, a very hot surfer who comes to San Blas each year then get's down to Pascuales and surfs it too.....with a helmet on! That's how powerful it is. 

Then just south of Colima is about 200 miles of some of the most unspoiled, lonely beaches in all of Mexico - the Michoacan Coast. We drove it all about two years ago. Be sure and check Security conditions before braving that lonely two lane highway. Oh, almost no gas between the border of Colima State and Lazlo Cardenas, so a full tank of gas is a must. Parts of it are heady coastal bluffs with fantastic little bays to have all to yourself. Reminds me some of Laguna Beach, and also some of Big Sur Coast line below Monterrey, California. Some of Turtle santuaries, other's are wide open. Fantastic surfing, and even a town 100% dedicated to surfing called Rio Nexpa. Your wife, son and you can stay at a Indonesian hostel there built by a great fun Texan Surfer and his Italian wife, patterned exactly as he saw those big tall houses in Indonesia and it's mostly maid out of bamboo, huge bamboo. 

A great place to stay in Colima, Colima is the 4-5 star hotel right on the Plaza with the Morocan or Arabic style arches. It's a Best Western of all things. Get it on Despegar.com and maybe pick up for around $75.00 per night like we did. You'd be in the center of all things. They have several comon area balconies to view one of the prettiest Central Plazas in Mexico. Oh, and they have a real nice Jacuzzi on the roof of this 4 floor hotel, which is perfect for viewing the Volcano from.

Cuyler


----------



## TundraGreen

circle110 said:


> I'm afraid you won't find your dream climate in Mexico.
> 
> Mexican cities were generally built in two places: The central highlands and the coast.
> 
> The central highlands have 10 months a year of beautiful springtime and two chilly months.
> The coastal cities have 10 months a year of summer weather and two months of intense heat.
> 
> Even the so called "perfect" Cuernavaca weather is only perfect in the town center. So unless you want to live in a tent on the zocalo, you will have to decide between the high side and the low side of town - each one being either hotter or colder than the ideal.
> 
> No matter where in Mexico you live, you will have to deal with a short uncomfortable period each year. I think that you need to ask yourself which will bother you less - the heat or the cold.
> 
> Also, make sure to factor in all the other aspects of a city that make living there great (or not) - culture, social activities, sporting activities, access to markets/shopping, the nature of the local people etc.
> 
> I lived in Chicago for almost 50 icy winters. I could have moved to Florida or San Diego or somewhere to escape the cold winters but I chose to stay in Chicago because it had more to offer me and I just learned to deal with the four brutal winter months because of all the other things the city had going for it. In comparison to Chicago, the chill of Dec/Jan in Guanajuato is nothing!!


I knew I appreciated the climate of Guadalajara but this thread has made me appreciate it even more. It is just enough lower than many of the central Mexican cities (DF, Querétaro, San Luis Potosi, Guanajuato, Morelia, etc) that the winters are really pretty mild. I assume the same applies to Lake Chapala as well.

Another thing to think about in considering temperature is the sun exposure of your living space. Many urban Mexican houses are very cold on the first floor if there is little sun into the rooms. Having good southern exposure can make a huge difference during the colder months of the year. Either a south facing patio or a second floor with more exposure to the sun can be a big deal in terms of comfort.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Chapala enjoys the added advantage of climatic moderation by the lake, making it less 'changeable' than even Guadalajara. It also has a different rain pattern and is rather free of pollution, because of the mountain range between the lake and Guadalajara.


----------



## cuylers5746

*House Construction & Exposure*



CharlieAustin said:


> Hello All
> 
> My family (wife, young son and I) are contemplating a move to a new part of Mexico.
> 
> We have been in Puerto Vallarta for the last 9 months and whilst we see the nice aspects and have enjoyed the beaches, the overwhelming heat in the summer months and the inflexible snowbird retirees here have made us re-think our location.
> 
> We love Mexico, it's people and culture but want more of that and not the snowbird gringos and all the hanging-on that goes on around that. We speak Spanish and like to integrate but Puerto Vallarta is a place for those who want Mexico US-style...
> 
> So some friends recommended Cuernavaca, La Paz (Baja) and Merida.
> 
> We have been to Merida and loved the Yucatan feel but it is too remote for us and we want to be near things. La Paz seems equally remote so Cuernavaca is the top choice.
> 
> I'd like to ask everyone here how they feel about Cuernavaca.
> 
> Weather - I hear it is fantastic!
> Housing - (what can you get for up to $1,000 per month)
> Parks - (we miss them as PV has none)
> Schools - our son is 4 so time to start school but where?
> Culture - art, museums, food and drink - is it good or feels like a weekend DF haunt as others have called Cuernavaca?
> 
> If not Cuernavaca, where for what we want?
> 
> Amy comments, negative or positive, are all appreciated ....
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

I guess Tundra Green was reading my mind? His last post on how a house is laid out to take advantage of light and heat of the sun is so very important. Great post.

*Micro Climates, and House Construction and Layout* - all important in cities with colder winters. Most cities have several different Micro Climates. So ask around before you look for houses to rent. Here in the Tepic area there's at least 3-4 micro climates. You're from London. MIss the Fog? Friends of our are building a nice new 1300 sq. ft. home on a hill 4 blocks above the Periferico for lot and home under $100K USD with fantastic views of Mt. Sanjuanguay. They get the fog every afternoon like in San Francisco even in the summer, which really cools things off. They're in the Aquacate area of the Municipality of Tepic. In the afternoons with the fog it's like 5-10 F cooler than where we live in El Centro. Then there's the Fracc. Alaska. Yea, with the fog blasting up there "el sereno", it's apt for it's name. So, go back to Queretaro and ask about the Micro Climes and which one's are the warmest in the winter and look to rent a house there?

You like'd Queretaro. Well there are some hills in the city and outside of the city. If you're on the blind side of a hill to block the cold north wind, and have south facing patio windows and back of house it will be a whole lot warmer in the winter. Also how the walls are constructed make a difference.

My wife would like to move to a fancier new neighborhood, but I have absolutely no intention of that. I've lived on a house boat on Lake Union, in Seattle with the Space Needle and the tall buildings as my front yard view, I've lived in an A Frame Cabin at a Ski Area in California Sierras, I've lived on the 28th Floor of a condo on the beach in West Palm Beach, Florida. Well, I've lived in every conceivable way except on a ranch or farm in the USA. I've lived or worked in 41 states.

At my age, every thing comes down to convenience and is it comfortable? Some times I feel like Doc in one of John Steinbecks novels like Sweet Thursday in my neighborhood. It's just a hoot. I wouldn't trade it for anything even though it's a mix of residential and commerical. Oh, and I guess I'm on to something because one Politco rebuilt a house on my block, two Doctors did and one Chilango moved back here to retire. It's getting to be like Homesteading, but in the inner city.

Now, getting back to the house. Look for a house with adobe walls facing north at least with good, secure windows. We have 2 ft. adobe walls, with brick liner inside and out in this 80+ year old house. We have a center courtyard and a big back yard with nice garden with Mango, Tangerine, Grapefruit, Lemon, and Guayaba Trees and roses and herb garden. The neighbor's Haas Hybrid Avocado tree's dump between 1-5 avocados each day into my back yard during that season too. And, we live 3.5 blocks from the main town square. During the day the Adobe walls in the front heat up and radiate their heat all night. The back brick walls heat up and heat up our bedrooms in the night. I can walk down the hall in the wee hours of the morning and feel the heat radiating out to me. It can be 15-20 F warmer in the house from in the center patio as witnessed from the thermometer in the wee hours of the morning. The ceilings are 10 ft. 4", some houses 12-15 ft. Higher the better for the hot summers. We have no A/C and only a portable space heater, that we've used twice in our bedroom in the last 10 years! We do have some ceiling fans, that we'll use "some times" in Aug. Sept. Oh, and can you beat the CFE bills? Unlike the high electric bills in the USA, they're 80"% subsidized by the Federal Government.

Yes, the downside to a old house is maintenance. Our electrician/plumber was just here today. I budget like $500.00 pesos per month just for maintenance - but hey when you only pay like $55.00 USD equivalent in Property Taxes per year - oh and that's after they were doubled - who's crying? Not, me.

I hope this helps you to get an idea what to look for in house construction and micro climates within the same city.

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> I guess Tundra Green was reading my mind? His last post on how a house is laid out to take advantage of light and heat of the sun is so very important. Great post.
> 
> *Micro Climates, and House Construction and Layout* - all important in cities with colder winters. Most cities have several different Micro Climates. So ask around before you look for houses to rent. Here in the Tepic area there's at least 3-4 micro climates. You're from London. MIss the Fog? Friends of our are building a nice new 1300 sq. ft. home on a hill 4 blocks above the Periferico for lot and home under $100K USD with fantastic views of Mt. Sanjuanguay. They get the fog every afternoon like in San Francisco even in the summer, which really cools things off. They're in the Aquacate area of the Municipality of Tepic. In the afternoons with the fog it's like 5-10 F cooler than where we live in El Centro. Then there's the Fracc. Alaska. Yea, with the fog blasting up there "el sereno", it's apt for it's name. So, go back to Queretaro and ask about the Micro Climes and which one's are the warmest in the winter and look to rent a house there?
> 
> You like'd Queretaro. Well there are some hills in the city and outside of the city. If you're on the blind side of a hill to block the cold north wind, and have south facing patio windows and back of house it will be a whole lot warmer in the winter. Also how the walls are constructed make a difference.
> 
> My wife would like to move to a fancier new neighborhood, but I have absolutely no intention of that. I've lived on a house boat on Lake Union, in Seattle with the Space Needle and the tall buildings as my front yard view, I've lived in an A Frame Cabin at a Ski Area in California Sierras, I've lived on the 28th Floor of a condo on the beach in West Palm Beach, Florida. Well, I've lived in every conceivable way except on a ranch or farm in the USA. I've lived or worked in 41 states.
> 
> At my age, every thing comes down to convenience and is it comfortable? Some times I feel like Doc in one of John Steinbecks novels like Sweet Thursday in my neighborhood. It's just a hoot. I wouldn't trade it for anything even though it's a mix of residential and commerical. Oh, and I guess I'm on to something because one Politco rebuilt a house on my block, two Doctors did and one Chilango moved back here to retire. It's getting to be like Homesteading, but in the inner city.
> 
> Now, getting back to the house. Look for a house with adobe walls facing north at least with good, secure windows. We have 2 ft. adobe walls, with brick liner inside and out in this 80+ year old house. We have a center courtyard and a big back yard with nice garden with Mango, Tangerine, Grapefruit, Lemon, and Guayaba Trees and roses and herb garden. The neighbor's Haas Hybrid Avocado tree's dump between 1-5 avocados each day into my back yard during that season too. And, we live 3.5 blocks from the main town square. During the day the Adobe walls in the front heat up and radiate their heat all night. The back brick walls heat up and heat up our bedrooms in the night. I can walk down the hall in the wee hours of the morning and feel the heat radiating out to me. It can be 15-20 F warmer in the house from in the center patio as witnessed from the thermometer in the wee hours of the morning. The ceilings are 10 ft. 4", some houses 12-15 ft. Higher the better for the hot summers. We have no A/C and only a portable space heater, that we've used twice in our bedroom in the last 10 years! We do have some ceiling fans, that we'll use "some times" in Aug. Sept. Oh, and can you beat the CFE bills? Unlike the high electric bills in the USA, they're 80"% subsidized by the Federal Government.
> 
> Yes, the downside to a old house is maintenance. Our electrician/plumber was just here today. I budget like $500.00 pesos per month just for maintenance - but hey when you only pay like $55.00 USD equivalent in Property Taxes per year - oh and that's after they were doubled - who's crying? Not, me.
> 
> I hope this helps you to get an idea what to look for in house construction and micro climates within the same city.
> 
> Cuyler


Thanks for the description...

The CFE bills here in PV are certainly not subsidised.... The electricity here is higher than anywhere else in the world I know of.... 

Charlie


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> I guess Tundra Green was reading my mind? His last post on how a house is laid out to take advantage of light and heat of the sun is so very important. Great post.
> 
> *Micro Climates, and House Construction and Layout* - all important in cities with colder winters. Most cities have several different Micro Climates. So ask around before you look for houses to rent. Here in the Tepic area there's at least 3-4 micro climates. You're from London. MIss the Fog? Friends of our are building a nice new 1300 sq. ft. home on a hill 4 blocks above the Periferico for lot and home under $100K USD with fantastic views of Mt. Sanjuanguay. They get the fog every afternoon like in San Francisco even in the summer, which really cools things off. They're in the Aquacate area of the Municipality of Tepic. In the afternoons with the fog it's like 5-10 F cooler than where we live in El Centro. Then there's the Fracc. Alaska. Yea, with the fog blasting up there "el sereno", it's apt for it's name. So, go back to Queretaro and ask about the Micro Climes and which one's are the warmest in the winter and look to rent a house there?
> 
> You like'd Queretaro. Well there are some hills in the city and outside of the city. If you're on the blind side of a hill to block the cold north wind, and have south facing patio windows and back of house it will be a whole lot warmer in the winter. Also how the walls are constructed make a difference.
> 
> My wife would like to move to a fancier new neighborhood, but I have absolutely no intention of that. I've lived on a house boat on Lake Union, in Seattle with the Space Needle and the tall buildings as my front yard view, I've lived in an A Frame Cabin at a Ski Area in California Sierras, I've lived on the 28th Floor of a condo on the beach in West Palm Beach, Florida. Well, I've lived in every conceivable way except on a ranch or farm in the USA. I've lived or worked in 41 states.
> 
> At my age, every thing comes down to convenience and is it comfortable? Some times I feel like Doc in one of John Steinbecks novels like Sweet Thursday in my neighborhood. It's just a hoot. I wouldn't trade it for anything even though it's a mix of residential and commerical. Oh, and I guess I'm on to something because one Politco rebuilt a house on my block, two Doctors did and one Chilango moved back here to retire. It's getting to be like Homesteading, but in the inner city.
> 
> Now, getting back to the house. Look for a house with adobe walls facing north at least with good, secure windows. We have 2 ft. adobe walls, with brick liner inside and out in this 80+ year old house. We have a center courtyard and a big back yard with nice garden with Mango, Tangerine, Grapefruit, Lemon, and Guayaba Trees and roses and herb garden. The neighbor's Haas Hybrid Avocado tree's dump between 1-5 avocados each day into my back yard during that season too. And, we live 3.5 blocks from the main town square. During the day the Adobe walls in the front heat up and radiate their heat all night. The back brick walls heat up and heat up our bedrooms in the night. I can walk down the hall in the wee hours of the morning and feel the heat radiating out to me. It can be 15-20 F warmer in the house from in the center patio as witnessed from the thermometer in the wee hours of the morning. The ceilings are 10 ft. 4", some houses 12-15 ft. Higher the better for the hot summers. We have no A/C and only a portable space heater, that we've used twice in our bedroom in the last 10 years! We do have some ceiling fans, that we'll use "some times" in Aug. Sept. Oh, and can you beat the CFE bills? Unlike the high electric bills in the USA, they're 80"% subsidized by the Federal Government.
> 
> Yes, the downside to a old house is maintenance. Our electrician/plumber was just here today. I budget like $500.00 pesos per month just for maintenance - but hey when you only pay like $55.00 USD equivalent in Property Taxes per year - oh and that's after they were doubled - who's crying? Not, me.
> 
> I hope this helps you to get an idea what to look for in house construction and micro climates within the same city.
> 
> Cuyler


Read the comment below these costs about the electricity here being more than in NYC!

Cost of Living in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. Prices in Puerto Vallarta.

Charlie


----------



## Guest

RVGRINGO said:


> Chapala enjoys the added advantage of climatic moderation by the lake, making it less 'changeable' than even Guadalajara. It also has a different rain pattern and is rather free of pollution, because of the mountain range between the lake and Guadalajara.


I did consider Ajicic and the Lake Chapala area but was warned by so many people not to consider it because of all the crime - break ins in particular.

Charlie


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> I knew I appreciated the climate of Guadalajara but this thread has made me appreciate it even more. It is just enough lower than many of the central Mexican cities (DF, Querétaro, San Luis Potosi, Guanajuato, Morelia, etc) that the winters are really pretty mild. I assume the same applies to Lake Chapala as well.
> 
> Another thing to think about in considering temperature is the sun exposure of your living space. Many urban Mexican houses are very cold on the first floor if there is little sun into the rooms. Having good southern exposure can make a huge difference during the colder months of the year. Either a south facing patio or a second floor with more exposure to the sun can be a big deal in terms of comfort.


Hi TundraGreen

I have to agree with ou about the climate of Guadalajara. You have the best of all worlds. I was there in December passing through to PV from Queretaro and it was perfect then have been back 3 times this summer only to be so pleased with the drier heat and lower humidity.

The issue for me was that I really didn't like the city on first glance and since. Maybe I didn't see the right places.

My detailed reaction was:

Dirty - everywhere seemed to have litter...
Congested - a lot of traffic jams to deal with...
Agressive - people seemed far less friendly than elsewhere...
Parks - never found them but to be fair never actively searched as it wasn't on the agenda each time...
Nightlife - where is it hidden? I went out alone for 2 nights, then with a Mexican friend for 1, and with family for 2 and never ever found any good places to hang out. The restaurants wereok but after that there were no bars at all to mention. I even tried the gentelmens clubs and at 1am on a Saturday night they were empty. Must have been a slow night....!

On the plus side, we visited the zoo and it is really, really good - world class in fact - and I have seen zoos all over the world. I would put it alongside London Zoo and second only to San Dieo and above DF zoo...

Also the food and drink was good wherever I have been...

So I am assuming there is good nightlife (bars with a pool table, atmosphere and people to meet) somewhere, good parks, good schools, and good affordable housing.

Also, maybe Zapopan is an option. I feel on it one night but again it was very dead.

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## cuylers5746

*Guadalajara*



CharlieAustin said:


> Hi TundraGreen
> 
> I have to agree with ou about the climate of Guadalajara. You have the best of all worlds. I was there in December passing through to PV from Queretaro and it was perfect then have been back 3 times this summer only to be so pleased with the drier heat and lower humidity.
> 
> The issue for me was that I really didn't like the city on first glance and since. Maybe I didn't see the right places.
> 
> My detailed reaction was:
> 
> Dirty - everywhere seemed to have litter...
> Congested - a lot of traffic jams to deal with...
> Agressive - people seemed far less friendly than elsewhere...
> Parks - never found them but to be fair never actively searched as it wasn't on the agenda each time...
> Nightlife - where is it hidden? I went out alone for 2 nights, then with a Mexican friend for 1, and with family for 2 and never ever found any good places to hang out. The restaurants wereok but after that there were no bars at all to mention. I even tried the gentelmens clubs and at 1am on a Saturday night they were empty. Must have been a slow night....!
> 
> On the plus side, we visited the zoo and it is really, really good - world class in fact - and I have seen zoos all over the world. I would put it alongside London Zoo and second only to San Dieo and above DF zoo...
> 
> Also the food and drink was good wherever I have been...
> 
> So I am assuming there is good nightlife (bars with a pool table, atmosphere and people to meet) somewhere, good parks, good schools, and good affordable housing.
> 
> Also, maybe Zapopan is an option. I feel on it one night but again it was very dead.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


Actually Charlie;

It's been a while, so I can't remember names but Guadalajara is so full of night life and great restaurants, one could not get bored. Maybe some of those living there can chime in?

Cuyler


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> …
> 
> Dirty - everywhere seemed to have litter...
> Congested - a lot of traffic jams to deal with...
> Agressive - people seemed far less friendly than elsewhere...
> Parks - never found them but to be fair never actively searched as it wasn't on the agenda each time...
> Nightlife - where is it hidden? I went out alone for 2 nights, then with a Mexican friend for 1, and with family for 2 and never ever found any good places to hang out. The restaurants wereok but after that there were no bars at all to mention. I even tried the gentelmens clubs and at 1am on a Saturday night they were empty. Must have been a slow night....!


About those 5 points…
Litter, yes. For the Pan Am games last year they put up trash cans on most every corner in Centro, but it takes more than that to change people's habits. 

Congested - It can be during morning and evening rush hour on some streets. My solution is to take the bus and let the driver deal with them, but you have to be patient and it can be a pain if you need to be some place at a particular time. It can be hard to predict how long it will take to get there. On the other hand, I can walk to almost everything I need. The mercado, hair cutting, hardware, bakery etc are all within a 3 minute walk. Consulate, Migracion, bars, restaurants, half a dozen independent movie houses are all within a 20 minute walk.

Agressive - Where in the city were you. I find people very friendly. Strangers greet you in passing on the sidewalk. The neighborhood I live in is like a small town. Every one in the mercado knows me. If they don't have the right change they just let me pay them next time.

Parks, I mentioned earlier, but to repeat, there is Metropolitano and Colomos plus others. Bosque La Primavera is close and a huge open space, 15 or 20 km square.

Nightlife - you must have been in the wrong place. Chapultepec goes full blast until long after midnight. There is an active gay club scene south of Hidalgo and lots of straight clubs as well. The center around the Cathedral goes to sleep about 9 pm so that is not the place to be. I just got home from a party at someone's house. I left the party to come home at 11 pm. At the same time, half of the people at the party left for a club to go dancing. For them the evening was just getting started. The party was a lot of people from north of the border. If it had been a Mexican party, it would have just been getting started at 11 pm.


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> About those 5 points…
> Litter, yes. For the Pan Am games last year they put up trash cans on most every corner in Centro, but it takes more than that to change people's habits.
> 
> Congested - It can be during morning and evening rush hour on some streets. My solution is to take the bus and let the driver deal with them, but you have to be patient and it can be a pain if you need to be some place at a particular time. It can be hard to predict how long it will take to get there. On the other hand, I can walk to almost everything I need. The mercado, hair cutting, hardware, bakery etc are all within a 3 minute walk. Consulate, Migracion, bars, restaurants, half a dozen independent movie houses are all within a 20 minute walk.
> 
> Agressive - Where in the city were you. I find people very friendly. Strangers greet you in passing on the sidewalk. The neighborhood I live in is like a small town. Every one in the mercado knows me. If they don't have the right change they just let me pay them next time.
> 
> Parks, I mentioned earlier, but to repeat, there is Metropolitano and Colomos plus others. Bosque La Primavera is close and a huge open space, 15 or 20 km square.
> 
> Nightlife - you must have been in the wrong place. Chapultepec goes full blast until long after midnight. There is an active gay club scene south of Hidalgo and lots of straight clubs as well. The center around the Cathedral goes to sleep about 9 pm so that is not the place to be. I just got home from a party at someone's house. I left the party to come home at 11 pm. At the same time, half of the people at the party left for a club to go dancing. For them the evening was just getting started. The party was a lot of people from north of the border. If it had been a Mexican party, it would have just been getting started at 11 pm.


Thanks for that, TundraGreen...

I think the key issue here for me is the right area. Clearly I was not checking out the fit ones.

I which area do you live to have everything so on hand by foot? That is my dream. Love walking... Last year I used to walk around 5-6 miles each day in Lomdon. It was fabulous and of course, 5-6 yards in Bangkok is near impossible hence ai left there.

Please let me know the area you live and any others that wood suit me...

Much appreciated.... I hope GDL can be a real option as it fits the bill in so many other ways.

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## Guest

CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks for that, TundraGreen...
> 
> I think the key issue here for me is the right area. Clearly I was not checking out the fit ones.
> 
> I which area do you live to have everything so on hand by foot? That is my dream. Love walking... Last year I used to walk around 5-6 miles each day in Lomdon. It was fabulous and of course, 5-6 yards in Bangkok is near impossible hence ai left there.
> 
> Please let me know the area you live and any others that wood suit me...
> 
> Much appreciated.... I hope GDL can be a real option as it fits the bill in so many other ways.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


TundraGreen

Sorry I forgot to answer up questions...

The aggressive people were in the old town area near the cathedral mostly but unfortunately that was the only area we found our first night and this put us off. 

Te dull nightlife was a bit everywhere but yes, in the old town near the Cathedral it was dull (but we enjoyed our late night horse and cart ride)... Then I was out on the town for a few nights at Chapultepec and other places including Hidalgo and yes, it was not short of people (on the weekend but mid week quiet) but the issue was that there was noting for my taste. I am pretty flexible but the full bars were very, very young (students only) then some others were full of smoke (can't remember the names but sort of adult bars with no nudity) then the strip bars I was taken to by my friend who is from GDL were a disaster. So al told, I guess I was just unlucky but all I was looking for was any of the following and never found them: sports bar, lounge bar, hotel bar, late night music bar....

I have found since that Mexico just doesn't seem to do good bars as far as I see. Any other country of the world I know I could go out with my wife or friends to a bar and have a good night, here in PV I don't know one and can't actually think of one anywhere else in Mexico whereas name any other country and I can..... That is a riddle!

Charlie


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Thanks for that, TundraGreen...
> 
> I think the key issue here for me is the right area. Clearly I was not checking out the fit ones.
> 
> I which area do you live to have everything so on hand by foot? That is my dream. Love walking... Last year I used to walk around 5-6 miles each day in Lomdon. It was fabulous and of course, 5-6 yards in Bangkok is near impossible hence ai left there.
> 
> Please let me know the area you live and any others that wood suit me...
> 
> Much appreciated.... I hope GDL can be a real option as it fits the bill in so many other ways.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


You are up late. I am halfway between Chapultepec and the Cathedral, right next to one of the numerous mercados in that area. The street I am on is very quiet, not a bus route. But there are buses running at the corner half a block away and it is a close to everything. You could probably get a somewhat similar situation living near the basilica in the center of Zapopan or the iglesia in Tlaquepaque with fewer options for everything since they are a little smaller. If you want to walk to things though, you have to stay away from the suburban style neighborhoods. They are just as car dependent as any place north of the border. Next time you are in Guadalajara, drop me a line and we can walk around the neighborhood, or at least look at a map and talk about it.


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> You are up late. I am halfway between Chapultepec and the Cathedral, right next to one of the numerous mercados in that area. The street I am on is very quiet, not a bus route. But there are buses running at the corner half a block away and it is a close to everything. You could probably get a somewhat similar situation living near the basilica in the center of Zapopan or the iglesia in Tlaquepaque with fewer options for everything since they are a little smaller. If you want to walk to things though, you have to stay away from the suburban style neighborhoods. They are just as car dependent as any place north of the border. Next time you are in Guadalajara, drop me a line and we can walk around the neighborhood, or at least look at a map and talk about it.


I am always up late.... It's called boredom! Thanks for the info. I'll check of the map but I get the idea and am warming to it. I just sold my vehicle here as I hated driving so much here and that is a first for me as I have had literally hundreds of cars and am a real petrol head (or used to be!) so the thought of a neighbourhood with everything within a short walk - groceries, primary school, other shopping and of course open space would be fabulous.... 

Any thoughts?

I didn't get to spend any time in Tlaquepaque or Zapopan so far so I wonder if that would be as good...

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> I am always up late.... It's called boredom! Thanks for the info. I'll check of the map but I get the idea and am warming to it. I just sold my vehicle here as I hated driving so much here and that is a first for me as I have had literally hundreds of cars and am a real petrol head (or used to be!) so the thought of a neighbourhood with everything within a short walk - groceries, primary school, other shopping and of course open space would be fabulous....
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> I didn't get to spend any time in Tlaquepaque or Zapopan so far so I wonder if that would be as good...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


The area where I live may be unique in its convenience for walking. The Gdl Metropolitan Area is made up of seven municipalities. Each has its own centro and they each have different flavors.

Guadalajara itself where I live was discussed earlier.

Tlaquepaque is very upscale tourist oriented with lots of high end artsy craftsy shops and restaurants. This is in its centro. The rest of the municipality is more typical urban housing.

Zapopan is the wealthiest of them. The centro is a popular night spot. There are numerous upscale US style malls scattered around and some very expensive neighborhoods, some gated, some with individual houses that are huge. The two parks I mentioned, Metropolitano and Colomos, are both in Zapopan. Zapopan is very much car oriented, because most people with money don't walk anywhere.

Tonalá is known for ceramics and furniture. There is a huge street fare on Tuesday and Sundays. A lot of Tonalá is pretty poor. If I were to consider any place besides Gdl Centro, Tonalá might be high on my list since it is more typical Mexican and thus more pedestrian-friendly.

Ixtlahuacán de los Membrillos is somewhat isolated and has more the feel of a small village.

Then there are a few others, Tlajomulco de Zuniga, El Salto, Juanacatlán.

One of the advantages of Guadalajara Centro is that the bus routes in the metropolitan area tend to be of two types. Most are radial from Centro. Then there are a few that go around ring roads. So if you live in Gdl Centro, lots of routes are available and it is very direct to get to most places. In the rest of the Metropolitan area, you might have just one bus line and a less direct route will be required. 

I haven't been to mercados in Zapopan, Tlaquepaque or Tonalá, so I don't know how convenient their centros would be for every day shopping needs. I assume they are there but haven't explored. 

I should also mention that many of the municipalities participate in a Sunday Recre-activa. On Sunday from 8 am to 2 pm, some major streets are closed to traffic and used by bicyclists, walkers, runners, skate boarders, roller skaters. The streets are mostly connected and the total length must be close to 50 kilometers. Just the main east-west route by itself is 20 km.


----------



## conklinwh

Charlie, it sounds like you have shifted your focus to GDL but I'm still amazed about your comment on weather in QRO, especially from a Brit that has the "coldest" weather for a given temperature about anywhere because of the biting chill. Also, houses not especially noted for their heating.
We live in the mountains about 2500m and 45 min from QRO. Last winter, we never hit 0C. Lowest was about 3 nights where dipped to 1 or 2C, but enough for a frost. In each case,it went up to 70F(sorry for switch). Our normal lows in the winter are the 40's or low 50's at night but very rare that doesn't get into the 70's and sunny during the day. In fact, we probably have more days with high in the 60's during the "rainy" season than the winter.
We did build our place with outer walls of adobe to even temperatures and have three gas fireplaces, 2BRs and living room but I never remember feeling cold.
Would think that QRO has about everything else that you list. I know a very active bicycle group as they have at least one criterian a year in our little town.
My temperature complaint about QRO is really the highs in May/early June before the rainy season where often in the 90's although pretty low humidity. When I go to QRO at that time, I really appreciate the return to the mountains as normally 5-10 degrees cooler.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Making Sense of Guadalajara*



TundraGreen said:


> The area where I live may be unique in its convenience for walking. The Gdl Metropolitan Area is made up of seven municipalities. Each has its own centro and they each have different flavors.
> 
> Guadalajara itself where I live was discussed earlier.
> 
> Tlaquepaque is very upscale tourist oriented with lots of high end artsy craftsy shops and restaurants. This is in its centro. The rest of the municipality is more typical urban housing.
> 
> Zapopan is the wealthiest of them. The centro is a popular night spot. There are numerous upscale US style malls scattered around and some very expensive neighborhoods, some gated, some with individual houses that are huge. The two parks I mentioned, Metropolitano and Colomos, are both in Zapopan. Zapopan is very much car oriented, because most people with money don't walk anywhere.
> 
> Tonalá is known for ceramics and furniture. There is a huge street fare on Tuesday and Sundays. A lot of Tonalá is pretty poor. If I were to consider any place besides Gdl Centro, Tonalá might be high on my list since it is more typical Mexican and thus more pedestrian-friendly.
> 
> Ixtlahuacán de los Membrillos is somewhat isolated and has more the feel of a small village.
> 
> Then there are a few others, Tlajomulco de Zuniga, El Salto, Juanacatlán.
> 
> One of the advantages of Guadalajara Centro is that the bus routes in the metropolitan area tend to be of two types. Most are radial from Centro. Then there are a few that go around ring roads. So if you live in Gdl Centro, lots of routes are available and it is very direct to get to most places. In the rest of the Metropolitan area, you might have just one bus line and a less direct route will be required.
> 
> I haven't been to mercados in Zapopan, Tlaquepaque or Tonalá, so I don't know how convenient their centros would be for every day shopping needs. I assume they are there but haven't explored.
> 
> I should also mention that many of the municipalities participate in a Sunday Recre-activa. On Sunday from 8 am to 2 pm, some major streets are closed to traffic and used by bicyclists, walkers, runners, skate boarders, roller skaters. The streets are mostly connected and the total length must be close to 50 kilometers. Just the main east-west route by itself is 20 km.


Wow Tundra Green;

Making sense out of Guadalajara was really great. I lost too much touch with Guadalajara after the 60's when I enjoyed it very much when it was only about 500K inhabitants. Now? 9 Million when you include all the little suburbs. When you think about it - it's got as many people as all the Boroughs of NYC? That's how I lost touch over the years. You're making it sound a a doable city once again?

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> The area where I live may be unique in its convenience for walking. The Gdl Metropolitan Area is made up of seven municipalities. Each has its own centro and they each have different flavors.
> 
> Guadalajara itself where I live was discussed earlier.
> 
> Tlaquepaque is very upscale tourist oriented with lots of high end artsy craftsy shops and restaurants. This is in its centro. The rest of the municipality is more typical urban housing.
> 
> Zapopan is the wealthiest of them. The centro is a popular night spot. There are numerous upscale US style malls scattered around and some very expensive neighborhoods, some gated, some with individual houses that are huge. The two parks I mentioned, Metropolitano and Colomos, are both in Zapopan. Zapopan is very much car oriented, because most people with money don't walk anywhere.
> 
> Tonalá is known for ceramics and furniture. There is a huge street fare on Tuesday and Sundays. A lot of Tonalá is pretty poor. If I were to consider any place besides Gdl Centro, Tonalá might be high on my list since it is more typical Mexican and thus more pedestrian-friendly.
> 
> Ixtlahuacán de los Membrillos is somewhat isolated and has more the feel of a small village.
> 
> Then there are a few others, Tlajomulco de Zuniga, El Salto, Juanacatlán.
> 
> One of the advantages of Guadalajara Centro is that the bus routes in the metropolitan area tend to be of two types. Most are radial from Centro. Then there are a few that go around ring roads. So if you live in Gdl Centro, lots of routes are available and it is very direct to get to most places. In the rest of the Metropolitan area, you might have just one bus line and a less direct route will be required.
> 
> I haven't been to mercados in Zapopan, Tlaquepaque or Tonalá, so I don't know how convenient their centros would be for every day shopping needs. I assume they are there but haven't explored.
> 
> I should also mention that many of the municipalities participate in a Sunday Recre-activa. On Sunday from 8 am to 2 pm, some major streets are closed to traffic and used by bicyclists, walkers, runners, skate boarders, roller skaters. The streets are mostly connected and the total length must be close to 50 kilometers. Just the main east-west route by itself is 20 km.


Thank you, TundraGreen. That is very helpful and gives me something to work with. It sounds then that there are a few options in GDL but that the only ones with easy park access would be your neighbourhood by bus to the two larger parks in Zapopan or in Zapopan itself if there were reasonably priced housing nearby. Wild that be a fair summary starting with parks as the primary criterion or are there other parks in the other neighbourhoods.

Charlie


----------



## Guest

conklinwh said:


> Charlie, it sounds like you have shifted your focus to GDL but I'm still amazed about your comment on weather in QRO, especially from a Brit that has the "coldest" weather for a given temperature about anywhere because of the biting chill. Also, houses not especially noted for their heating.
> We live in the mountains about 2500m and 45 min from QRO. Last winter, we never hit 0C. Lowest was about 3 nights where dipped to 1 or 2C, but enough for a frost. In each case,it went up to 70F(sorry for switch). Our normal lows in the winter are the 40's or low 50's at night but very rare that doesn't get into the 70's and sunny during the day. In fact, we probably have more days with high in the 60's during the "rainy" season than the winter.
> We did build our place with outer walls of adobe to even temperatures and have three gas fireplaces, 2BRs and living room but I never remember feeling cold.
> Would think that QRO has about everything else that you list. I know a very active bicycle group as they have at least one criterian a year in our little town.
> My temperature complaint about QRO is really the highs in May/early June before the rainy season where often in the 90's although pretty low humidity. When I go to QRO at that time, I really appreciate the return to the mountains as normally 5-10 degrees cooler.


Hi Conklinwh

GDL is certainly a good option for the weather if I can work my way around the rest of it...

Regarding Queretaro, the weather was way too cold for us those few nights as we had no heating or even hot water when the boiler broke down. We wee told it would be like that for 3 months until it warmed up.

I agree the UK can get cold and that is the entirely the reason for not wanting the cold. If I wanted cold, I would stay in Lomdon which of course is a fabulous city and easily out does anywhere here. The difference is also that actually all UK and Europe has very well heated homes. I don't know of anyone without a central heating or similarly efficient heating system. In London last summer we were in a 1,200 sq ft apartment in London and even in the cooler spring months when we had the heating on 24/7 and were using lots of hot water, the bills were less than $60 per month. Of course in other respects, London is very expensive. In Queretaro, by comparison, no house I saw even had heating and the designer I spoke to about a new home in Juriquilla looked at me puzzled when I asked!

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> The area where I live may be unique in its convenience for walking. The Gdl Metropolitan Area is made up of seven municipalities. Each has its own centro and they each have different flavors.
> 
> Guadalajara itself where I live was discussed earlier.
> 
> Tlaquepaque is very upscale tourist oriented with lots of high end artsy craftsy shops and restaurants. This is in its centro. The rest of the municipality is more typical urban housing.
> 
> Zapopan is the wealthiest of them. The centro is a popular night spot. There are numerous upscale US style malls scattered around and some very expensive neighborhoods, some gated, some with individual houses that are huge. The two parks I mentioned, Metropolitano and Colomos, are both in Zapopan. Zapopan is very much car oriented, because most people with money don't walk anywhere.
> 
> Tonalá is known for ceramics and furniture. There is a huge street fare on Tuesday and Sundays. A lot of Tonalá is pretty poor. If I were to consider any place besides Gdl Centro, Tonalá might be high on my list since it is more typical Mexican and thus more pedestrian-friendly.
> 
> Ixtlahuacán de los Membrillos is somewhat isolated and has more the feel of a small village.
> 
> Then there are a few others, Tlajomulco de Zuniga, El Salto, Juanacatlán.
> 
> One of the advantages of Guadalajara Centro is that the bus routes in the metropolitan area tend to be of two types. Most are radial from Centro. Then there are a few that go around ring roads. So if you live in Gdl Centro, lots of routes are available and it is very direct to get to most places. In the rest of the Metropolitan area, you might have just one bus line and a less direct route will be required.
> 
> I haven't been to mercados in Zapopan, Tlaquepaque or Tonalá, so I don't know how convenient their centros would be for every day shopping needs. I assume they are there but haven't explored.
> 
> I should also mention that many of the municipalities participate in a Sunday Recre-activa. On Sunday from 8 am to 2 pm, some major streets are closed to traffic and used by bicyclists, walkers, runners, skate boarders, roller skaters. The streets are mostly connected and the total length must be close to 50 kilometers. Just the main east-west route by itself is 20 km.


Hi TundraGreen

I have been doing a lot of looking around online at Guadalajara, asking friends here and remembering my visits to GDL since you raised the benefits of the city.

I found this useful page on the parks - 

Parques, bosques y jardines en Guadalajara, Mxico

I think I will come up and visit very soon to get my bearings again and would be very grateful if we can meet up and take a tour around.

I think I need to "feel" the city again and see how areas near the parks are for other things like mercados, schools etc.

Any other advice or information you have in the meantime is gratefully appreciated.

Thanks!

Charlie


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Hi TundraGreen
> 
> I have been doing a lot of looking around online at Guadalajara, asking friends here and remembering my visits to GDL since you raised the benefits of the city.
> 
> I found this useful page on the parks -
> 
> Parques, bosques y jardines en Guadalajara, Mxico
> 
> I think I will come up and visit very soon to get my bearings again and would be very grateful if we can meet up and take a tour around.
> 
> I think I need to "feel" the city again and see how areas near the parks are for other things like mercados, schools etc.
> 
> Any other advice or information you have in the meantime is gratefully appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Charlie


Thanks for the list. There were a couple on that list that I forgot about when I was listing them, and a couple that I didn't know about. Let me know when you are going to be here.


----------



## Guest

Dear All

It seems that Guadalajara has turned up as a good option for us, despite my initial reticence, for the following reasons - 

Great weather - no need for heating or AC with any luck
Many nice parks - there seems to be a good selection ranging from ornamental to natural
Great zoo - my son adores animals
Good shopping - I know GDL is renowned for the best malls in Mexico
International airport - it seems there is more connectivity than PV
Culture - many museums, galleries, concerts and theaters
University city - all that comes with that
Cycling and pedestrian friendly areas - both within and outside parks and on Sundays


I throw this back out to everyone...

Is there anywhere else in Mexico that can offer the above or other attributes to make it a contender for a visit?

I am still interested in those areas near DF that may not have everything themselves but of course have access to DF and other cities like Colima to put alongside GDL on a shortlist...

Thank you all again so much for your contributions. Please don't give up the help now! We are nearly there with a shortlist...

Charlie


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> Thanks for the list. There were a couple on that list that I forgot about when I was listing them, and a couple that I didn't know about. Let me know when you are going to be here.


I certainly will. Did you manage to give some thought to my earlier question about which might be the best neighborhoods near to parks or with easy access? I want to have a shortlist for GDL before I come and do some more online research...

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## Guest

Does anyone have any feel for the issue of pollution and dirtiness of Guadalajara?

I ask because my initial impression of GDL was not good for these reasons. I am putting this aside to focus on the positives but after an event reading online about parks, streets and neighbourhoods the most common words I see are - unkept, dirty, polluted, allergies, disrepair and denagerous.

Please can you give me your honest opinions and maybe suggestions of other clean cities in Mexico.

Charlie


----------



## Guest

Dear all

Des anyone love in or know or have an opinion on any of these places I have picked up from my online reading?

Tequisquiapan, near Queretaro, Zacatecas, Aquascalientes, San Luis Potosi, Patzcuaro, and San Cristobal de las Casas, Tapalpa in Jalisco and Pozos de Mineral in Guanajuato, Colima, Comala, Tepic, Jalapa....

Once again criteria are weather, parks, culture, accessibility and real Mexican culture.

Charlie


----------



## mickisue1

Charlie, FWIW, it may be a good idea for you to spend at least a month in the various areas where you are thinking of settling.

Other people's impressions of anywhere are just that--other people's impressions. You can't base your decisions for your unique needs on their likes and dislikes.

There are so many amazing places that one COULD live in MX that deciding on factors such as climate and city size can narrow it down a bit, but then spending time there, enough time to get the rhythm of the place, is the best bet for decision making.


----------



## conklinwh

CharlieAustin said:


> Dear all
> 
> Des anyone love in or know or have an opinion on any of these places I have picked up from my online reading?
> 
> Tequisquiapan, near Queretaro, Zacatecas, Aquascalientes, San Luis Potosi, Patzcuaro, and San Cristobal de las Casas, Tapalpa in Jalisco and Pozos de Mineral in Guanajuato, Colima, Comala, Tepic, Jalapa....
> 
> Once again criteria are weather, parks, culture, accessibility and real Mexican culture.
> 
> Charlie


There is poster from Tequisquiapan. My view is pretty small resort like city that could work well for a family but may need home school. Doubt temperature much different than QRO but a lot of hot springs. Zacatecas a great place but much colder. Don't think Aquascalientes, San Luis Potosi or Patzcuaro warmer than QRO and Patzcuaro although a great place is a lot more moist. Winters in San Cristobal also colder but a great place as well. We live in Pozos and 5+ degrees cooler than QRO although as I said rarely if ever gets to 0 degrees C at night and when does goes to 70F and sunny during the day. We love Pozos but very small, less than 3K people and expats with kids either home school or move to San Miguel. Pozos is really for someone into hiking, mountain biking, exploring or an artist. BTW, San Miguel is a great family place with much of what you list but I never see you asking.


----------



## conklinwh

CharlieAustin said:


> Hi Conklinwh
> 
> GDL is certainly a good option for the weather if I can work my way around the rest of it...
> 
> Regarding Queretaro, the weather was way too cold for us those few nights as we had no heating or even hot water when the boiler broke down. We wee told it would be like that for 3 months until it warmed up.
> 
> I agree the UK can get cold and that is the entirely the reason for not wanting the cold. If I wanted cold, I would stay in Lomdon which of course is a fabulous city and easily out does anywhere here. The difference is also that actually all UK and Europe has very well heated homes. I don't know of anyone without a central heating or similarly efficient heating system. In London last summer we were in a 1,200 sq ft apartment in London and even in the cooler spring months when we had the heating on 24/7 and were using lots of hot water, the bills were less than $60 per month. Of course in other respects, London is very expensive. In Queretaro, by comparison, no house I saw even had heating and the designer I spoke to about a new home in Juriquilla looked at me puzzled when I asked!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


Think you got distorted info. Person may have been saying that there is possibility of getting close to 0C for about 3 months but reality is typical only a few days over 3 months.
Also, they really don't have concept of central heating although expect that you could get in places like Juruquilla. Almost everyone I know has multiple fireplaces to cut any chill and many have gas logs that are plentiful to acquire in QRO. Other option that people employ are space heaters and I saw a number recently at Home Depot in QRO.
As said in earlier note, cold not a problem for us. Biggest temperature issue is 90F temperatures in May/early June before the rainy season. Those days it feels good to get back in the "mountains".
We have 3 sets of gas logs, a gas stove, gas water heater & gas dryer. LP is delivered and around $60USD/month with range from $40-80USD.


----------



## TundraGreen

conklinwh said:


> Think you got distorted info. Person may have been saying that there is possibility of getting close to 0C for about 3 months but reality is typical only a few days over 3 months.
> Also, they really don't have concept of central heating although expect that you could get in places like Juruquilla. Almost everyone I know has multiple fireplaces to cut any chill and many have gas logs that are plentiful to acquire in QRO. Other option that people employ are space heaters and I saw a number recently at Home Depot in QRO.
> As said in earlier note, cold not a problem for us. Biggest temperature issue is 90F temperatures in May/early June before the rainy season. Those days it feels good to get back in the "mountains".
> We have 3 sets of gas logs, a gas stove, gas water heater & gas dryer. LP is delivered and around $60USD/month with range from $40-80USD.


I think it partly depends on your tolerance of cold. I had some friends who were miserable during the winter of 2008-9 in Qro. It was down around 5 C for months. They were only comfortable in bed they told me. And they are from Idaho so they know what cold is. But living in uninsulated, unheated space is different. Also think about electricity rates before investing in electric space heaters. The rates are progressive and it can be expensive if you use a lot.


----------



## Guest

That is the issue entirely. I have bad bones and cannot tolerate the cold at all. If I could, I would be in London, believe me....

I ma guessing now the shortlist of places (that don't get too cold) are:

Guadalajara
Tapalpa in Jalisco
Colima,
Comala,
Tepic, 
Jalapa

Did I miss any out?

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## conklinwh

Hate to keep beating a dead horse but we were in Pozos winter 2008-2009 and only remember 3-4 nights where got into the 30's. Mostly 40's & low 50's and we are usually 5 degrees or so cooler.
Gas logs do solve the chill.


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> That is the issue entirely. I have bad bones and cannot tolerate the cold at all. If I could, I would be in London, believe me....
> 
> I ma guessing now the shortlist of places (that don't get too cold) are:
> 
> Guadalajara
> Tapalpa in Jalisco
> Colima,
> Comala,
> Tepic,
> Jalapa
> 
> Did I miss any out?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


Tapalpa is at 2100 m elevation, higher that Querétaro, and I suspect it is pretty cool there in winter. It is a small town, pretty touristy. It is on the list of Pueblos Mágicos. A nice place to visit. Whether it is a good place to live is a personal decision.


----------



## RVGRINGO

CharlieAustin said:


> .....................I ma guessing now the shortlist of places..


Your list is getting even shorter, in that case. Anything at an elevation higher than Guadalajara will be pretty chilly in the winter. Anything much lower in elevation may be too hot and humid in the summer. That's why the Guadalajara, Chapala, Ajijic, Jocotopec choices are so popular as places to live.
We've enjoyed visiting the other places you mentioned, but only in the proper seasons.


----------



## AlanMexicali

CharlieAustin said:


> That is the issue entirely. I have bad bones and cannot tolerate the cold at all. If I could, I would be in London, believe me....
> 
> I ma guessing now the shortlist of places (that don't get too cold) are:
> 
> Guadalajara
> Tapalpa in Jalisco
> Colima,
> Comala,
> Tepic,
> Jalapa
> 
> Did I miss any out?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


Oaxaca City has a Tropical savanna climate (Koppen climate classification Aw) with a wet season and a dry season. During the dry season, temperatures during the day remain warm with an average high of 27 °C (81 °F) in the coolest month and an average high of 34 °C (93 °F) in April, just before the beginning of the wet season. Although daytime temperatures are warm, nighttime temperatures are cool with an average low of 9 °C (48 °F) in January . Due to its altitude of1,555 metres (5,102 ft), the climate of Oaxaca is more mild than lowland areas with the same climate, resulting in cooler temperatures than lowland areas with the same climate. Precipitation is concentrated in the summer months with June being the wettest with an average precipitation of 172 mm (6.8 in).""


----------



## conklinwh

AlanMexicali said:


> Oaxaca City has a Tropical savanna climate (Koppen climate classification Aw) with a wet season and a dry season. During the dry season, temperatures during the day remain warm with an average high of 27 °C (81 °F) in the coolest month and an average high of 34 °C (93 °F) in April, just before the beginning of the wet season. Although daytime temperatures are warm, nighttime temperatures are cool with an average low of 9 °C (48 °F) in January . Due to its altitude of1,555 metres (5,102 ft), the climate of Oaxaca is more mild than lowland areas with the same climate, resulting in cooler temperatures than lowland areas with the same climate. Precipitation is concentrated in the summer months with June being the wettest with an average precipitation of 172 mm (6.8 in).""


You are right that Oaxaca City may be a great alternative. I never think of it as we wanted to be 8-9 hrs from the border so rally restricted to the bajio for mild temperatures.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> You are right that Oaxaca City may be a great alternative. I never think of it as we wanted to be 8-9 hrs from the border so rally restricted to the bajio for mild temperatures.


I have no need to be near the border (have never been there, in fact), so Oaxaca City has always been in the back of my mind as a place to move to some day.


----------



## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> I have no need to be near the border (have never been there, in fact), so Oaxaca City has always been in the back of my mind as a place to move to some day.


Near may be a misnomer as 500+mi. We have 4 kids, 6 grandkids & ailing 93 year old mother scattered across 5 states and really need option of driving to the border.
Typically do two times a year with normally one planned and the other "on call".


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Near may be a misnomer as 500+mi. We have 4 kids, 6 grandkids & ailing 93 year old mother scattered across 5 states and really need option of driving to the border.
> Typically do two times a year with normally one planned and the other "on call".


It's nice that you have such a big family to keep in touch with. I visit my 91-year-old mother once a year. Otherwise, we keep in touch with weekly phone calls.


----------



## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> It's nice that you have such a big family to keep in touch with. I visit my 91-year-old mother once a year. Otherwise, we keep in touch with weekly phone calls.


Would love phone call option but doesn't work, she is in combo assisted living/nursery home and sort of comes & goes mentally although physically gets around OK. Luckily her younger sister is in the same town, Port Clinton, OH, and my brother, FL, and I sort of take turns as need be physically there to get any recognition.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Would love phone call option but doesn't work, she is in combo assisted living/nursery home and sort of comes & goes mentally although physically gets around OK. Luckily her younger sister is in the same town, Port Clinton, OH, and my brother, FL, and I sort of take turns as need be physically there to get any recognition.


My mother recently moved to a Masonic Home in New Jersey. Though she has some aches and pains, her mind is as sharp and witty as ever, so our phone calls are usually good ones. Sorry to learn that your mother has not been so lucky, though she is lucky to have three devoted children.


----------



## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> My mother recently moved to a Masonic Home in New Jersey. Though she has some aches and pains, her mind is as sharp and witty as ever, so our phone calls are usually good ones. Sorry to learn that your mother has not been so lucky, though she is lucky to have three devoted children.


Where in NJ? Is that where you are from? Actually only my brother was inflicted with me growing up. Other person is my mom's sister, but thanks!


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Where in NJ? Is that where you are from? Actually only my brother was inflicted with me growing up. Other person is my mom's sister, but thanks!


I grew up in Levittown, PA. We were able to keep my mother in the family house till this past summer. My sister did a fabulous job of finding a place for our mom in the home in Burlington, NJ, which is a twenty-minute car ride from where she had lived since 1954.

Rereading your previous message, I see that I misread a pronoun. How great that you still have both your mother and aunt around!


----------



## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> I grew up in Levittown, PA. We were able to keep my mother in the family house till this past summer. My sister did a fabulous job of finding a place for our mom in the home in Burlington, NJ, which is a twenty-minute car ride from where she had lived since 1954.
> 
> Rereading your previous message, I see that I misread a pronoun. How great that you still have both your mother and aunt around!


Until this summer, aunt & uncle. I was raised in northern Jersey, went to school in Bethlehem, PA , daughter went to school in Philly and stepdaughter and family live in Barto, near Boyertown, PA so know area reasonably well.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Until this summer, aunt & uncle. I was raised in northern Jersey, went to school in Bethlehem, PA , daughter went to school in Philly and stepdaughter and family live in Barto, near Boyertown, PA so know area reasonably well.


I was born in Philly and went back there to live in the 1980s. Then I moved to NYC, a place I much prefer to the city of my birth. Did my undergraduate degree in the Lancaster area but chose not to stay there and then took off for other parts.


----------



## conklinwh

Also spent time working in NYC 1969-75 although commuted from NJ. My daughter lived in Lincoln Towers near Lincoln Center for 15 years.


----------



## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Also spent time working in NYC 1969-75 although commuted from NJ. My daughter lived in Lincoln Towers near Lincoln Center for 15 years.


I lived in NYC from 1990 to 2003. By then it was a very safe place to live and most of the graffiti had been removed from the subway cars. I lived in Brooklyn, in Park Slope and then in Windsor Terrace. I do miss the years I spent there, but Mexico City is a pretty good substitute .


----------



## Guest

conklinwh said:


> You are right that Oaxaca City may be a great alternative. I never think of it as we wanted to be 8-9 hrs from the border so rally restricted to the bajio for mild temperatures.


Oaxaca looks very interesting. Thank you for the suggestion.

The weather is perfect for sure.

Does anyone else have any experiences, impressions or further information on the city?

Charlie


----------



## Isla Verde

CharlieAustin said:


> Oaxaca looks very interesting. Thank you for the suggestion.
> 
> The weather is perfect for sure.
> 
> Does anyone else have any experiences, impressions or further information on the city?
> 
> Charlie


I've never lived in Oaxaca City but have spent many happy vacations there. Because of its many attractions (colonial-era architecture, nearby pre-Hispanic archaeological sites, great food, some of Mexico's loveliest handicrafts, and a generally friendly vibe) it receives tons of visitors from all over Mexico and abroad, including many Europeans and even Australians in addition to Americans and Canadians. But it doesn't feel like a tourist town. When you sit in the main plaza enjoying the sights, and the band music on certain days of the week, there are always as many locals seated at the cafes as there are tourists, probably more. 

The weather is good, but don't expect that the weather any place in Mexico, or anywhere else, will be "perfect".


----------



## conklinwh

There is a fellow, Alvin Starkman, that has posted but I don't believe recently that is the most knowledgeable person that I know on Oaxaca. He can answer about anything you want.


----------



## Guest

conklinwh said:


> There is a fellow, Alvin Starkman, that has posted but I don't believe recently that is the most knowledgeable person that I know on Oaxaca. He can answer about anything you want.


Thank you....

I hope to hear from Alvin or anyone else...

Specifically, I would be interested to know about the following:

accommodation (central) - prices for a 2 or 3 bed apartment / small house?
tpurist season - year round?
schools - primary and later?
parks (of course)?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## conklinwh

Alvin is very good but you may need contact him. If you google him you will get any number of articles on Oaxaca.


----------



## Guest

Hi all

I spent a few days doing some more research and asking around as well as working out my priorities...

It comes down to the following - 

Most important factor - climate

Therefore, the three options I have seen so far are:

Guadalajara
Cuernavaca
Oaxaca

I heard some good things and bad things about each one which is normal. I also heard forthe forst time some warnings of danger in the second two in particular. As I am not wealthy or involved with drugs, I always feel the risks of kidnapping or murder are far away but it is important to consider that the sound of gun shots ringing out at night or bodies on the street by day are also not acceptable for me so maybe this is an important point.

Guadalajara - I am constantly told that Jaliaco is removed from the narco issues as the gang that controls the state keeps its own turf clean so to speak. This seems a reasonable assumption but in recent months there seem to be incursions into Guadalajara and the incidence of narco related crime is increasing.... Any thoughts?

Cuernavaca - again, narco crime here seems to be increasing as this is the gateway to the Acapulco area form DF and turf wars are underway. It might be small and not a significant size but it seems to have narco crime. Ah thoughts?

Oaxaca - I see a high level of unrest here mainly due to ongoing social battles between unions and the government and also minority groups which of course were very prominent in 2006. However, I am told by several people (anecdotally only of course) that narco crime is high there too. What is the true situation, I wonder?

Aside from this, I have consolidated my plans and am looking to one of the above places to live with my family - schools, parks, hospitals, culture etc - but also to open a business.

It will be a deli / restaurant concept looking for trade during the day (lunches, take aways) and evenings (dinners, takeaways) with a few tables but particulary focusing on healthy eating and snacks. For this the demographic is mid to upper end Mexicans, expats and tourists. Prices will not be high but this is not fast food...

The ideal is a local with accommodation above in a central area. I see Oaxaca has a few options available for around $20,000 MXN per month but do not see so much in the other cities.

I am told that there are some good areas of Guadalajara in the centro with office workers and others that will be a good clientele for this business and I assume in Cuernavaca the major trade is weekend Mexicans from DF but that there are enough locals and expats to make a brisk trade possible in the week.

Your advice on the above is most welcome.....

Cheers

Charlie


----------



## conklinwh

CharlieAustin said:


> Hi all
> 
> I spent a few days doing some more research and asking around as well as working out my priorities...
> 
> It comes down to the following -
> 
> Most important factor - climate
> 
> Therefore, the three options I have seen so far are:
> 
> Guadalajara
> Cuernavaca
> Oaxaca
> 
> I heard some good things and bad things about each one which is normal. I also heard forthe forst time some warnings of danger in the second two in particular. As I am not wealthy or involved with drugs, I always feel the risks of kidnapping or murder are far away but it is important to consider that the sound of gun shots ringing out at night or bodies on the street by day are also not acceptable for me so maybe this is an important point.
> 
> Guadalajara - I am constantly told that Jaliaco is removed from the narco issues as the gang that controls the state keeps its own turf clean so to speak. This seems a reasonable assumption but in recent months there seem to be incursions into Guadalajara and the incidence of narco related crime is increasing.... Any thoughts?
> 
> Cuernavaca - again, narco crime here seems to be increasing as this is the gateway to the Acapulco area form DF and turf wars are underway. It might be small and not a significant size but it seems to have narco crime. Ah thoughts?
> 
> Oaxaca - I see a high level of unrest here mainly due to ongoing social battles between unions and the government and also minority groups which of course were very prominent in 2006. However, I am told by several people (anecdotally only of course) that narco crime is high there too. What is the true situation, I wonder?
> 
> Aside from this, I have consolidated my plans and am looking to one of the above places to live with my family - schools, parks, hospitals, culture etc - but also to open a business.
> 
> It will be a deli / restaurant concept looking for trade during the day (lunches, take aways) and evenings (dinners, takeaways) with a few tables but particulary focusing on healthy eating and snacks. For this the demographic is mid to upper end Mexicans, expats and tourists. Prices will not be high but this is not fast food...
> 
> The ideal is a local with accommodation above in a central area. I see Oaxaca has a few options available for around $20,000 MXN per month but do not see so much in the other cities.
> 
> I am told that there are some good areas of Guadalajara in the centro with office workers and others that will be a good clientele for this business and I assume in Cuernavaca the major trade is weekend Mexicans from DF but that there are enough locals and expats to make a brisk trade possible in the week.
> 
> Your advice on the above is most welcome.....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


I'm pretty biased as GDL is too big for me and Cuernavaca is too close to DF. In fact as I had said, if Oaxaca not so far from the Texas border, there is a good chance that we would have moved there.
It does have great parks and plazas and of course Monte Alban is a great place to wander just outside town.
We think has a good mix of restaurants and of course mescal bars. In fact there is great Italian pizza place.
We always feel safe. At most we saw pickets in the Zocolo and some marches but always local issues and very calm.
For more on this as well as schools and business opportunities, I would really contact Alvin Starkman. BTW, our experience with other expats is that a lot easier to open business in Mexico than to work in one as you go from job competition to a potential employer.

My only thought on crime recently in any of theses is an article now about a month old in Borderland Beat about the Zeta "cross" strategy and how might effect GDL. As I said, this about a month or so old.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Down to 3*



CharlieAustin said:


> Hi all
> 
> I spent a few days doing some more research and asking around as well as working out my priorities...
> 
> It comes down to the following -
> 
> Most important factor - climate
> 
> Therefore, the three options I have seen so far are:
> 
> Guadalajara
> Cuernavaca
> Oaxaca
> 
> I heard some good things and bad things about each one which is normal. I also heard forthe forst time some warnings of danger in the second two in particular. As I am not wealthy or involved with drugs, I always feel the risks of kidnapping or murder are far away but it is important to consider that the sound of gun shots ringing out at night or bodies on the street by day are also not acceptable for me so maybe this is an important point.
> 
> Guadalajara - I am constantly told that Jaliaco is removed from the narco issues as the gang that controls the state keeps its own turf clean so to speak. This seems a reasonable assumption but in recent months there seem to be incursions into Guadalajara and the incidence of narco related crime is increasing.... Any thoughts?
> 
> Cuernavaca - again, narco crime here seems to be increasing as this is the gateway to the Acapulco area form DF and turf wars are underway. It might be small and not a significant size but it seems to have narco crime. Ah thoughts?
> 
> Oaxaca - I see a high level of unrest here mainly due to ongoing social battles between unions and the government and also minority groups which of course were very prominent in 2006. However, I am told by several people (anecdotally only of course) that narco crime is high there too. What is the true situation, I wonder?
> 
> Aside from this, I have consolidated my plans and am looking to one of the above places to live with my family - schools, parks, hospitals, culture etc - but also to open a business.
> 
> It will be a deli / restaurant concept looking for trade during the day (lunches, take aways) and evenings (dinners, takeaways) with a few tables but particulary focusing on healthy eating and snacks. For this the demographic is mid to upper end Mexicans, expats and tourists. Prices will not be high but this is not fast food...
> 
> The ideal is a local with accommodation above in a central area. I see Oaxaca has a few options available for around $20,000 MXN per month but do not see so much in the other cities.
> 
> I am told that there are some good areas of Guadalajara in the centro with office workers and others that will be a good clientele for this business and I assume in Cuernavaca the major trade is weekend Mexicans from DF but that there are enough locals and expats to make a brisk trade possible in the week.
> 
> Your advice on the above is most welcome.....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

Sorry, you could not get the pictures up, only on Google and my hard drive where they resided is in my Toshiba Lap Top that crashed.

Well just a few thoughts.

1.) No. 1 one on my mind - is your wife a good cook? I mean either in Oaxaca that has tons of European sophisticated tourists, or in a nice neighborhood in Guadalajara *I think you would do real well with a Thai Restaurant if you had enough start up capital to advertise from the git go?* Why compete with others, when you have somethings other's don't that will set you apart - especially if it's done up real well? A lot of people with sophisticated eating habits in Guadalajara as for the local Mexicano's I'd have to say that either Guadalajara is a suburb of Los Angeles, CA. or vice versa? So, many people that live, lived in L.A. came from there and have relatives there and are used to all manor of food including Thai. For that matter, I bet a good Thai Restaurant would do well in Cuernavaca too?

2.) Following neighboring states and our past drug problems here's my take.
Guadalajara is going to be a very hard place to gain top hand in Security against the Cartels. Why? It's just too darn large = 9 Million in habitants about the size of NYC. That and it's right next door to one of the largest drug growing regions = Michoacan which is largely "lawless", and too many outlandisly ruthless Cartels centered out of there like "La Familia", who love to leave headless corpes around so no one wonder's who did the killing. And, for all the merchandise to get up the West Coast to Arizona, California it must come through Guadalajara.

We had a major drug war here in Nayarit about 2 years ago, making me think....so this is what living in Juarez was like? I mean 5-6 Drug Cartels "invited it" by the most corupt Governor possible, that gave a damn about our Capital City. Change of Governor, that loves Tepic and we've dropped from over 700 deaths in 2010-2011 to now just averaging 4 per month. How's it being done? Well basically taking most of the suggestions Rudy Guilliani gave to D.F. about 10 years ago when brought down as a consultant after cleaning up NYC. We have so many daily patrols of Federal Troops, Federales, beefed up and NOW well trained and armed to the teeth local police - and they're all coordinated and under the control of the 13th District General. He has cops/ military stop young male strangers on the street (often times could be scouts for Cartels) and demand their I.D. and their cell phone nos. and where they work etc. They have roving bands of 4-6 motocycle cops on pocket rockets with guys riding shot gun with automatic rifles all in bullet proof vests. I mean we went from a 19th Century mentality police force = were here, so we hope you don't do anything illegal - to probably what will become a model for other Mexican Cities and if this Depression get's much worse in the USA it will be used in US Cities I believe. They've instituted a big branch of the police force of Detectives snooping out possible problems and following up leads. Finally the citizens believe in them and can call in anonymously any suspicious newcomers to their neighborhood and they're checked out.

The General got the Governor to ask Pres. Calderon for the money for Mobile Comand, and Mobile Barracks along with Apache Helicopers to quickly reply with a concentrated beefy police pressence to any city in the State that appears to being over run by any Cartel. I mean they're getting serious around this State.

Oh, not to mention it's believed the "Plaza Rights" were sold by the new Governor of Nayarit to the Sinaloa Cartel ....El Chapo. That's great as he's dead set against any kidnappings or extortion of the locals. 

So, Oaxaca is small enough if the Governor get's the gumption up to really clean up the Cartel sheanigans if he so desires - but will he? That's a big question you need to be asking of locals that live there.

I hope this adds some prospective to your final count down to the big 3?

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> Sorry, you could not get the pictures up, only on Google and my hard drive where they resided is in my Toshiba Lap Top that crashed.
> 
> Well just a few thoughts.
> 
> 1.) No. 1 one on my mind - is your wife a good cook? I mean either in Oaxaca that has tons of European sophisticated tourists, or in a nice neighborhood in Guadalajara *I think you would do real well with a Thai Restaurant if you had enough start up capital to advertise from the git go?* Why compete with others, when you have somethings other's don't that will set you apart - especially if it's done up real well? A lot of people with sophisticated eating habits in Guadalajara as for the local Mexicano's I'd have to say that either Guadalajara is a suburb of Los Angeles, CA. or vice versa? So, many people that live, lived in L.A. came from there and have relatives there and are used to all manor of food including Thai. For that matter, I bet a good Thai Restaurant would do well in Cuernavaca too?
> 
> 2.) Following neighboring states and our past drug problems here's my take.
> Guadalajara is going to be a very hard place to gain top hand in Security against the Cartels. Why? It's just too darn large = 9 Million in habitants about the size of NYC. That and it's right next door to one of the largest drug growing regions = Michoacan which is largely "lawless", and too many outlandisly ruthless Cartels centered out of there like "La Familia", who love to leave headless corpes around so no one wonder's who did the killing. And, for all the merchandise to get up the West Coast to Arizona, California it must come through Guadalajara.
> 
> We had a major drug war here in Nayarit about 2 years ago, making me think....so this is what living in Juarez was like? I mean 5-6 Drug Cartels "invited it" by the most corupt Governor possible, that gave a damn about our Capital City. Change of Governor, that loves Tepic and we've dropped from over 700 deaths in 2010-2011 to now just averaging 4 per month. How's it being done? Well basically taking most of the suggestions Rudy Guilliani gave to D.F. about 10 years ago when brought down as a consultant after cleaning up NYC. We have so many daily patrols of Federal Troops, Federales, beefed up and NOW well trained and armed to the teeth local police - and they're all coordinated and under the control of the 13th District General. He has cops/ military stop young male strangers on the street (often times could be scouts for Cartels) and demand their I.D. and their cell phone nos. and where they work etc. They have roving bands of 4-6 motocycle cops on pocket rockets with guys riding shot gun with automatic rifles all in bullet proof vests. I mean we went from a 19th Century mentality police force = were here, so we hope you don't do anything illegal - to probably what will become a model for other Mexican Cities and if this Depression get's much worse in the USA it will be used in US Cities I believe. They've instituted a big branch of the police force of Detectives snooping out possible problems and following up leads. Finally the citizens believe in them and can call in anonymously any suspicious newcomers to their neighborhood and they're checked out.
> 
> The General got the Governor to ask Pres. Calderon for the money for Mobile Comand, and Mobile Barracks along with Apache Helicopers to quickly reply with a concentrated beefy police pressence to any city in the State that appears to being over run by any Cartel. I mean they're getting serious around this State.
> 
> Oh, not to mention it's believed the "Plaza Rights" were sold by the new Governor of Nayarit to the Sinaloa Cartel ....El Chapo. That's great as he's dead set against any kidnappings or extortion of the locals.
> 
> So, Oaxaca is small enough if the Governor get's the gumption up to really clean up the Cartel sheanigans if he so desires - but will he? That's a big question you need to be asking of locals that live there.
> 
> I hope this adds some prospective to your final count down to the big 3?
> 
> Cuyler


Hi Cuyler

Thanks so much for that.

Yes, my wife is a very good cook and I am not bad myself. My father was a chef and I have even studied Thai cooking and other Asian blends so between us we can make some great dishes....

The security issue is a ough one - I guess you have to see it at two levels 1. Personal safety 2. Affect on business... I don't know, I really don't. I take on board your points to read the lie of the land and future indicators but finding knowledgeable people is tough as everyone has a pet theory and who knows how much is based on facts.

I have got on touch with Alvin Starkman and he is being very helpful on Oaxaca, TundraGreen has been really good on Guadalajara so I know least about Cuernavaca. I wish someone here had more details...

Overall, I have got down to the final 3 cities and now need to know a little more before I choose the favourite to spend some time in. My criteria are as follows:

Assuming the climate is agreeable asnit is in my final 3, I am looking for a city that can give me the following:

Family life - central location walkable or short bus ride to parks, schools, bars, restaurants, culture etc. not to noisy, not too dirty, safe at night, friendly people
Business opportunity - we want a local in the centro (or somewhere else with good footfall) to open an Asian restaurant / deli concept - high quality authentic food, takeaway, few tables, lunch and dinner) and live above or close by. Other key factors - available supply of spices, other supplies and staff. Clientele in situ - office staff, middle class up locals and expats. Realistic regulations and available licenses etc...

I guess it comes down to personal taste and feel in the end but I would really like to be able to compare some basic metrics too before flying off to visit - 

Average rent for 50 - 100 sqm in good location with 2 - 3 beds above
Average staff salary for cook/server/cleaner/washer upper 

I have checked each city for current Thai/Asian restaurants and there seems nothing to write home about so competition will not be a big issue. It's a funny thing but Thais and Asians in general don't seem to do good restaurants at all unless they really have to! I'll explain.... In London we have arguably the best Indian and Chinese food in the world (nothing like the real thing in each case but fantastic) precisely because there are so many of these restaurants. CTM (chicken tikka masala) is the UK national dish now based on being the most consumed dish in the UK! Same with Thai in London...

In the US, Asian food is fantastic in San Francisco or parts of LA but pick a small town and it is terrible BECAUSE there is no competition! They don't try nless they have to and always cut corners. I don't work like that, I do things properly so I think it is easy to be the best here in Mexico considering the average is so low. Also, Asian food is a natural for Mexicans with the spice and rice...

So there you have my thoughts. I hope someone can tell me "move to xxxxxx, live in the xxxxxx area, ou will pay xxxxxx per month and there AE plenty of customers because of xxxxxx". ..... That would be a great start. After a year here in PV, I can do that for virtually any business in PV, though it would probably be "don't move to PV because xxxxxxx".... Haha

Charlie


----------



## Isla Verde

"In the US, Asian food is fantastic in San Francisco or parts of LA but pick a small town and it is terrible BECAUSE there is no competition! They don't try nless they have to and always cut corners. I don't work like that, I do things properly so I think it is easy to be the best here in Mexico considering the average is so low. Also, Asian food is a natural for Mexicans with the spice and rice..."

This is a great explanation of why the average Chinese restaurant in Mexico City serves pretty awful food. Regarding Asian food being "a natural" for Mexico, even in Mexico City, I have found that most Mexicans are very conservative when it comes to trying foreign cuisines. Though they love their chile, other kinds of "picante" does not go over well, even relatively mild spices like Chinese mustard and Japanese wasabi.


----------



## Guest

Dear all

I was surfing around and came across Xalapa....

Xalapa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems to have a very good climate, is known as the city of flowers owing to its numerous parks and gardens and seems all told a very cultured and pleasant place to live.

My first reaction when I saw it was in Veracruz was it might be dangerous but I can't find anything concrete to affirm or contradict this.

Does anyone have any views or expeiences of Xalapa to share?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## Guest

Extortion

As I read about Xalapa, I see crime coming to town. I then read about extortion and see it growing in quantum leaps as the gangs seek an alternative to drug incomes.

It seems many areas of Mexico are rife with extortion activity now.

Xalapa, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca, Guadalajara ?

Oaxaca - Borderland Beat: "El Cabrito" Zeta crime boss arrested in Oaxaca
GDL - Borderland Beat: 26 Bodies Dumped in Mass Slaying in Guadalajara
Even Cancun! Mexico and Gulf Region Reporter: Cancún Zetas extort even street vendors, and run sex trade, too - with INM help

This makes me concerned to start a business in any if these places if it really is prevalent.

Charlie


----------



## mickisue1

CharlieAustin said:


> Extortion
> 
> As I read about Xalapa, I see crime coming to town. I then read about extortion and see it growing in quantum leaps as the gangs seek an alternative to drug incomes.
> 
> It seems many areas of Mexico are rife with extortion activity now.
> 
> Xalapa, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca, Guadalajara ?
> 
> Oaxaca - Borderland Beat: "El Cabrito" Zeta crime boss arrested in Oaxaca
> GDL - Borderland Beat: 26 Bodies Dumped in Mass Slaying in Guadalajara
> Even Cancun! Mexico and Gulf Region Reporter: Cancún Zetas extort even street vendors, and run sex trade, too - with INM help
> 
> This makes me concerned to start a business in any if these places if it really is prevalent.
> 
> Charlie


Look at the news for any city of good size in the US. Any country with lots of guns around will have lots of murder, and lots of threats of murder.

Last week, in my city, the owner of a small business fired an employee. No one knows why, but his family had been attending groups to support the families of mentally ill adults.

That afternoon, he came back to the company and killed the boss and the other employees. When his house was searched, he had an arsenal in his basement, including 10,000 rounds of ammunition for the gun he'd used to kill all of them, and himself.

Mind you, guns are not so easy to obtain legally in MX, but it's a badly kept secret that it's quite easy to smuggle them across the border from the US, and here, sadly, they are BIG business. The bottom line is that if you are planning to live anywhere in MX or the US for that matter, you will have the likelihood that your city will have gun violence. 

Whether it affects you personally is another issue, other than the horror of knowing how many people consider other people's lives expendable.

GDL is in a metropolitan area of 9 million. That's a lot of people to spread that violence among.


----------



## conklinwh

CharlieAustin said:


> Extortion
> 
> As I read about Xalapa, I see crime coming to town. I then read about extortion and see it growing in quantum leaps as the gangs seek an alternative to drug incomes.
> 
> It seems many areas of Mexico are rife with extortion activity now.
> 
> Xalapa, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca, Guadalajara ?
> 
> Oaxaca - Borderland Beat: "El Cabrito" Zeta crime boss arrested in Oaxaca
> GDL - Borderland Beat: 26 Bodies Dumped in Mass Slaying in Guadalajara
> Even Cancun! Mexico and Gulf Region Reporter: Cancún Zetas extort even street vendors, and run sex trade, too - with INM help
> 
> This makes me concerned to start a business in any if these places if it really is prevalent.
> 
> Charlie


Charlie, I think that you are at the point where you just need to pick. You have made what sounds like good contacts in two of your choices.
Assuming the funds to say spend 6mo in city you pick without having to go the business route, then I would do it, get on the ground and start talking to locals.
Since Alvin has I believe multiple businesses in Oaxaca, I expect that he can get you a lot of business contacts that would assist your evaluation for their.


----------



## sunnyvmx

It is prevalent, scary and serious even in small towns. My friend in San Andres, a very small city 12 kms from Catemaco was setting up clothing on a sidewalk space between other vendors. She was approached for "protection money" and closed up shop. She then began to sell her stock from her home and again there was a knock on the door and another demand for money. She again chose to close her business rather than give her money to thieves. Now she sells cakes to private clients and waits again for the knock on her door.


----------



## cuylers5746

*Security in Mexico*



CharlieAustin said:


> Extortion
> 
> As I read about Xalapa, I see crime coming to town. I then read about extortion and see it growing in quantum leaps as the gangs seek an alternative to drug incomes.
> 
> It seems many areas of Mexico are rife with extortion activity now.
> 
> Xalapa, Cuernavaca, Oaxaca, Guadalajara ?
> 
> Oaxaca - Borderland Beat: "El Cabrito" Zeta crime boss arrested in Oaxaca
> GDL - Borderland Beat: 26 Bodies Dumped in Mass Slaying in Guadalajara
> Even Cancun! Mexico and Gulf Region Reporter: Cancún Zetas extort even street vendors, and run sex trade, too - with INM help
> 
> This makes me concerned to start a business in any if these places if it really is prevalent.
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

Not to make it tougher to make your choice? But, you mentioned 1.) Personal Security for you and your famility, 2.) Your business Security?

Well, this whole extorsion/kidnapping thing can totally distroy any plans and any money you put into this endeavor - not to mention it's frightening as hell. We lived through it and I can tell you it's just not worth it. So, for peace of mind, I'd completely change your final decision making process to narrow down your choice to;

Only where it is El Chapo's Territory and firmly in control of the area.

Yes, you might see in the news and papers, a few people killed each week or month - but they'll be pretty obvious in the business, and not ordinary folks and not from kidnappings and extorsion.

At least that's my take. I've put every last cent out on the line gambled on some busineses in the past and I know how insecure it can feel. Luckily I was successful each time, but knowing it can be stolen, all of it is a horrible feeling.

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> Not to make it tougher to make your choice? But, you mentioned 1.) Personal Security for you and your famility, 2.) Your business Security?
> 
> Well, this whole extorsion/kidnapping thing can totally distroy any plans and any money you put into this endeavor - not to mention it's frightening as hell. We lived through it and I can tell you it's just not worth it. So, for peace of mind, I'd completely change your final decision making process to narrow down your choice to;
> 
> Only where it is El Chapo's Territory and firmly in control of the area.
> 
> Yes, you might see in the news and papers, a few people killed each week or month - but they'll be pretty obvious in the business, and not ordinary folks and not from kidnappings and extorsion.
> 
> At least that's my take. I've put every last cent out on the line gambled on some busineses in the past and I know how insecure it can feel. Luckily I was successful each time, but knowing it can be stolen, all of it is a horrible feeling.
> 
> Cuyler


Where would be "safe" in that case"....?

Charlie


----------



## Guest

I am really at a loss. As with everything, there is no clear certainty, but as someone who abhors violence, I really do not want to embark on a business with any reasonable risk of extortion occurring. With so many stories floating around, it seems so, so common in Mexico as to be more than a slight chance - in fact, it sounds like a real probability. 

How on earth can I know the safer places as this is crucial before I make travel plans and start doing research for other aspects of the business?

If it really is such a risk, then that is really holding the country back as I am not going to be the only person who simply says they can't be bothered with this and finds another country!

Charlie


----------



## kito1

Maybe I am misunderstanding things... but even if some particular place is safe today or next month or next year, the only "sure thing" is that things can and do change. If you really want a sure thing I don't think Mexico will offer you that. Not sure where will, but Mexico is not it.


----------



## Isla Verde

kito1 said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding things... but even if some particular place is safe today or next month or next year, the only "sure thing" is that things can and do change. If you really want a sure thing I don't think Mexico will offer you that. Not sure where will, but Mexico is not it.


I was just about to post a similar comment. No place in the world is entirely safe, and, unfortunately, in the last few years, parts of Mexico have become quite insecure. I actually feel safer here than I did living in certain parts of the US, but then I don't have a family to be concerned about or a business to protect. Maybe this is not a great time for you to settle here after all, in spite of the lovely weather, lower cost of living, and friendly people, and people like me who would love to have a really good Thai restaurant in the neighborhood.


----------



## Longford

CharlieAustin said:


> I am really at a loss. As with everything, there is no clear certainty, but as someone who abhors violence, I really do not want to embark on a business with any reasonable risk of extortion occurring. With so many stories floating around, it seems so, so common in Mexico as to be more than a slight chance - in fact, it sounds like a real probability.
> 
> How on earth can I know the safer places as this is crucial before I make travel plans and start doing research for other aspects of the business?
> 
> If it really is such a risk, then that is really holding the country back as I am not going to be the only person who simply says they can't be bothered with this and finds another country!
> 
> Charlie


Mexico, and Mexicans ... are corrupt - generally IMO. The national DNA was compromised a very long time ago. Millions of people exist, earn livings the result of corruption the likes of which you may not personally have experienced or been exposed to in your lifetime. Such corruption ranges from the minor stuff such as police, service providers (CFE electricians, as one example) to the serious stuff such as kidnapping and extortion. There are probably more people kidnapped in Mexico than in any other country. If it's not the leader in the field it's close to the top. And it's not the rich folks who are the most set-upon targets. It's the middle-class ... even lower middle class. Small business owners. The papeleria, the changaro, the office manager and even some of the perceived to be more successful of the street vendors. Foreigners may not be a specific target, but I've known some to be victimized. And because the law enforcement and judicial sections of the government are also corrupt ... there's little good that will come of reporting these crimes. The police are oftentimes the perpetrators. These things vary by region, by city and by time of day, day of week and what exists October may change by January and then back again by June. Mexico's not all of the things we see in Hollywood movies. Not all of the pretty and colorful things. But it's not the dumps, chaos either. There's both and because it's a culture foreign to most of us and we don't tend to understand all of the nuances ... we perceive the situations differently and handle them differently and stress-out differently than we do in our home countries where some of the same things also occur. Though, the extent of the corruption at the mid to lower levels of society in Mexico seems to have been mostly eradicated in the USA and Canada. Mexico's not for the faint of heart. It takes an unusually strong and independent, resourceful expat to unlock the "real Mexico."


----------



## fjack1415

Yes, I was thinking the same with the Mexican palate. pretty provincial. Must be very careful there is a very large cosmopolitan pop. I shoud think for a Thai rest. And ditto on the lack of competition with Asian cuisine etc. It can get really bad!


----------



## cuylers5746

*Taking it from the top*



CharlieAustin said:


> Where would be "safe" in that case"....?
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

Excepting at the Frontera where there's a mix of gangs all trying to get their products across to USA.
Heading south from Nogales safer cities, that are in the firm control of El Chapo and his Sinaloa Cartel would be;

1. Bahia San Carlos/ Guaymas, Sonora - VERY beautiful but very hot in summer. Where the
Sonoran Desert meets the sea. Has the advantage of only being 4.5 hours drive to border
at Nogales, and 5.5 hours to Tucson, AZ for shopping. A number of restaurants just close up
shop here in the heat of the summer and go elsewhere, and you could too.

2. Hermosillo, Sonora Capital large city very few expats, but now has to cater to execs from the 
new huge Ford Plant outside of town. Hot too, in middle of really the Sonora Desert. This is 
more of a La Banda Music, Cowboy town and might not be to your liking, cattle barons call
it home so there some money around here too.

3. Los Mochis, pretty well laid out town originally by a ****** century ago, huge park that was 
his Ecological Gardens - looks to be over 1000+ hectares in city with some nice 
neighborhoods butting up to it. Agricultural area, with some big money around here. I is also 
the start of the tourist railroad that goes to the famous "Baranca del Cobre", 5 times larger than 
the USA Grand Canyon National Park, and ends up in Chiquahua, City. Smaller city like 
Tepic. Sea of Cortez is close by for days off at the beach. Buy recent Mexico Desconosido
Magazine on Sonora, and it features Los Mochis, Iike even we havent' seen it.

4. Mazatlan, beautiful but I think hotter than P.V. because it doesn't have the mountains right 
behind it like P.V. to trap the clouds and provide sun cover and then rain like P.V. But my
wife and I way believe it's a much nicer life style than P.V. I mean if you want partying to wee 
hours of the moring it's all along the 2+ mile Malecon. I think longest in Mexico where all the 
hentes come out about 6:00 PM to walk, jog, roller blade, skate board, bike or walk their dog 
and of course being seen. You want just a normal city, walk inland two blocks and it's just a 
normal Mexican City. Pretty large ex-pat community there too. Three Seasons for tourists, 
Winter Snow Bird Season, Semana Santa, and Summer for the Mexican Family Vacationers.

Its more of a sportman type town. Take an early moring kiyak paddle .5 mile off shore to deer
or stone Island before work. More open ocean here with great surf a lot of the time.

It, unlike P.V. has a Symphonic Orchesta, Opera, and IS on the International Concert Circuit.
Circus Soleil even comes here some times. Get the drift - beats P.V. hands down in our 
estimatation for living even though PV is prettier. But just too darn hot July/Aug, and pretty 
darn hot in June and Sept. too. But hey close up the restaurant and travel Mexico those 
months. We do know two couples that had enough of the heat and moved to Tepic.

5. Tepic. You know all about that. If you wanted to take a second look, because we do have
at least 4 nice parks, including La Loma, La Alameda, The Archiological Park behind Inst.
Tech. Monterrey and a new one. I could show you around the neighborhoods that would be
best for your speciality restaurant = nicer, trendier neighborhoods. About 4 neighborhoods
come to mind. And, I think now has probably the best Security of any Capital City in Mexico
right now. Anything, could change in 6 more years if we get a pocho Governor come in?
My wife just cautioned that with your bones situation, the humity and coolness of the almost
daily "El Sereno" situation might be bad for your limbs? She's an Occupational Therapist.

6. "Maybe Durango, Durango". It WAS under el Chapo's control, but I heard on the TV while
vacationing in Mazatlan last year, they uncovered (2) Zeta "Boot Camps" in the mountains. 
Not good! But, if things have changed and firm control of el Chapo. It might be a great fit. Up 
high in the mountains, old mining town, Capital City but now with the new highway only 2 
hours to Mazatlan for the weekends. Some beautiful pine forests up there. Then for walking, 
they have the Old West Movie Sets, that John Wayne and countless others used, and is still 
being used for making movies. Some lakes up there, one with good Bass Fishing that I know 
of and some weird rock formations, like no where else to explore. *BUT it all comes down to
Security, you need to find out if El Chapo is in firm control here or not?*

I'm sorry, but it looks like the Ying/Yang thing here as far as you finding the perfect place to move to. I've just added some further food for thought. My wife thinks a Thai/Chinese Restaurant in Cuernavaca would go real good and better climate for your limbs. It's a smaller city, downtown great climate, but it gets tons of tourists from that largest city on the planet D.F. that come in on the weekend. Which If I was a Restaurantaur, I think would be a perfect fit $ wise to place my restaurant? There are some great old Hacienda's not too far from there, and even some Caverns
southwest of town. Even ***** Calderon in the early 1800's like it.

Cuyler


----------



## cuylers5746

*I agree to disagree!*



CharlieAustin said:


> I am really at a loss. As with everything, there is no clear certainty, but as someone who abhors violence, I really do not want to embark on a business with any reasonable risk of extortion occurring. With so many stories floating around, it seems so, so common in Mexico as to be more than a slight chance - in fact, it sounds like a real probability.
> 
> How on earth can I know the safer places as this is crucial before I make travel plans and start doing research for other aspects of the business?
> 
> If it really is such a risk, then that is really holding the country back as I am not going to be the only person who simply says they can't be bothered with this and finds another country!
> 
> Charlie


Hi Charlie;

Security in this insecure World! 

Actually, I think what we've been witnessing in some of our cities in Mexico has already been exported to some cities in USA and about to become a whole lot more prevalent. The whole World is in the midst of a 240 year event of a Depression of huge proportions. As things get worse, and the ECB and Federal Reserve Banik are quickly running out of bullets, things will deteriorate more. 

So, you I think you need to look at where ever in the World a City that has manageable entrances/exits to police effectively, and that the local Politicians have the WILL to provide that protection.

I mean the South Side of Chicago is a lot like some cities that Cartels have over run. There's parts of Cleveland, the hotel Conceige will warn you not to jog in. South L.A. and some Mexican Bario's have become worse than in Mexico. 

You have to do your System Engineering on it to eliminate all but a few places, and find the place that "feels right" for you and your family then go for it. Life is always a gamble, every waking day!

Cuyler


----------



## Guest

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi Charlie;
> 
> Excepting at the Frontera where there's a mix of gangs all trying to get their products across to USA.
> Heading south from Nogales safer cities, that are in the firm control of El Chapo and his Sinaloa Cartel would be;
> 
> 1. Bahia San Carlos/ Guaymas, Sonora - VERY beautiful but very hot in summer. Where the
> Sonoran Desert meets the sea. Has the advantage of only being 4.5 hours drive to border
> at Nogales, and 5.5 hours to Tucson, AZ for shopping. A number of restaurants just close up
> shop here in the heat of the summer and go elsewhere, and you could too.
> 
> 2. Hermosillo, Sonora Capital large city very few expats, but now has to cater to execs from the
> new huge Ford Plant outside of town. Hot too, in middle of really the Sonora Desert. This is
> more of a La Banda Music, Cowboy town and might not be to your liking, cattle barons call
> it home so there some money around here too.
> 
> 3. Los Mochis, pretty well laid out town originally by a ****** century ago, huge park that was
> his Ecological Gardens - looks to be over 1000+ hectares in city with some nice
> neighborhoods butting up to it. Agricultural area, with some big money around here. I is also
> the start of the tourist railroad that goes to the famous "Baranca del Cobre", 5 times larger than
> the USA Grand Canyon National Park, and ends up in Chiquahua, City. Smaller city like
> Tepic. Sea of Cortez is close by for days off at the beach. Buy recent Mexico Desconosido
> Magazine on Sonora, and it features Los Mochis, Iike even we havent' seen it.
> 
> 4. Mazatlan, beautiful but I think hotter than P.V. because it doesn't have the mountains right
> behind it like P.V. to trap the clouds and provide sun cover and then rain like P.V. But my
> wife and I way believe it's a much nicer life style than P.V. I mean if you want partying to wee
> hours of the moring it's all along the 2+ mile Malecon. I think longest in Mexico where all the
> hentes come out about 6:00 PM to walk, jog, roller blade, skate board, bike or walk their dog
> and of course being seen. You want just a normal city, walk inland two blocks and it's just a
> normal Mexican City. Pretty large ex-pat community there too. Three Seasons for tourists,
> Winter Snow Bird Season, Semana Santa, and Summer for the Mexican Family Vacationers.
> 
> Its more of a sportman type town. Take an early moring kiyak paddle .5 mile off shore to deer
> or stone Island before work. More open ocean here with great surf a lot of the time.
> 
> It, unlike P.V. has a Symphonic Orchesta, Opera, and IS on the International Concert Circuit.
> Circus Soleil even comes here some times. Get the drift - beats P.V. hands down in our
> estimatation for living even though PV is prettier. But just too darn hot July/Aug, and pretty
> darn hot in June and Sept. too. But hey close up the restaurant and travel Mexico those
> months. We do know two couples that had enough of the heat and moved to Tepic.
> 
> 5. Tepic. You know all about that. If you wanted to take a second look, because we do have
> at least 4 nice parks, including La Loma, La Alameda, The Archiological Park behind Inst.
> Tech. Monterrey and a new one. I could show you around the neighborhoods that would be
> best for your speciality restaurant = nicer, trendier neighborhoods. About 4 neighborhoods
> come to mind. And, I think now has probably the best Security of any Capital City in Mexico
> right now. Anything, could change in 6 more years if we get a pocho Governor come in?
> My wife just cautioned that with your bones situation, the humity and coolness of the almost
> daily "El Sereno" situation might be bad for your limbs? She's an Occupational Therapist.
> 
> 6. "Maybe Durango, Durango". It WAS under el Chapo's control, but I heard on the TV while
> vacationing in Mazatlan last year, they uncovered (2) Zeta "Boot Camps" in the mountains.
> Not good! But, if things have changed and firm control of el Chapo. It might be a great fit. Up
> high in the mountains, old mining town, Capital City but now with the new highway only 2
> hours to Mazatlan for the weekends. Some beautiful pine forests up there. Then for walking,
> they have the Old West Movie Sets, that John Wayne and countless others used, and is still
> being used for making movies. Some lakes up there, one with good Bass Fishing that I know
> of and some weird rock formations, like no where else to explore. *BUT it all comes down to
> Security, you need to find out if El Chapo is in firm control here or not?*
> 
> I'm sorry, but it looks like the Ying/Yang thing here as far as you finding the perfect place to move to. I've just added some further food for thought. My wife thinks a Thai/Chinese Restaurant in Cuernavaca would go real good and better climate for your limbs. It's a smaller city, downtown great climate, but it gets tons of tourists from that largest city on the planet D.F. that come in on the weekend. Which If I was a Restaurantaur, I think would be a perfect fit $ wise to place my restaurant? There are some great old Hacienda's not too far from there, and even some Caverns
> southwest of town. Even ***** Calderon in the early 1800's like it.
> 
> Cuyler


Hi Cuylers

That is a fantastic insight and I will check through thank you. I am trying to prioritize and the climate is numero uno so hence nice as some places might be for a holiday or in some other respects, I keep thinking that I could always be in London if I want to endure cold or Thailand if I want to stay in air con all year!

As for the security, I am actually pretty hardened. I lived and worked in Thailand for 9 years and it is statistically for more dangerous than Mexico. The things I have seen - go here for a little insight - www.andrewdrummond.com - I know Andrew and sadly knew many of the dead and wounded on the site such as Donald Whiting (my next door neighbor). It is lawless beyond belief but I am streetwise so never flinched an eyelid even with henchmen i my property office with machine guns...

Why am I worried now? I am older - 49 now - and have a young family and can't be doing that stuff again. I want a safer thing more akin to my alma mater, England where the majority of Police still don't carry guns and people are nice (isn!) even is the weather is not!

I think you understand me by now and once again many thanks.....

Cheer

Charlie


----------



## Guest

Is Xalapa dry or humid?


----------



## Guest

fjack1415 said:


> Yes, I was thinking the same with the Mexican palate. pretty provincial. Must be very careful there is a very large cosmopolitan pop. I shoud think for a Thai rest. And ditto on the lack of competition with Asian cuisine etc. It can get really bad!


Every Mexican I ask says they love to try foreign food especially if it is spicy. I know that might just be talk but the 10 or so we have offered food here to love it and one or two even ask for the exact ingredients or to see how to cook it....

I tend to see Mexicans as conservative in many ways and thought the same for food but..... admittedly they are being given free food but they seem to be open to new flavors!

This is an important point of me as it governs whether I go to a predominantly tourist area or not...

Any other thoughts?

Charlie


----------



## circle110

CharlieAustin said:


> Is Xalapa dry or humid?


Xalapa is humid and rather rainy. It made our short list of places to move but lost because of the lack of sunshine. Outside of the grey weather it has a lot to offer and we really liked it.


----------



## Isla Verde

CharlieAustin said:


> Every Mexican I ask says they love to try foreign food especially if it is spicy. I know that might just be talk but the 10 or so we have offered food here to love it and one or two even ask for the exact ingredients or to see how to cook it....
> 
> I tend to see Mexicans as conservative in many ways and thought the same for food but..... admittedly they are being given free food but they seem to be open to new flavors!
> 
> This is an important point of me as it governs whether I go to a predominantly tourist area or not...
> 
> Any other thoughts?
> 
> Charlie


When Mexican say they like spicy food, they are usually thinking of the word "picante", which to them means flavored with chiles, the hotter the better. It may not include non-chile spices like Chinese mustard or Japanese wasabi or even copious amounts of my favorite spice, garlic.


----------



## Guest

Thank you all for your contributions these last few weeks. I am planning to visit Oaxaca, Cuernavaca and surrounding towns and Guadalajara/Tlaquepaque. 

I am still interested in any further advice or indeed anyone's vote on the best place in terms of:

Quality of life (parks, schools, air quality, safety, culture etc)
Accomodation (availability of locales with adjoining/above accommodation at a good price)
Business prospects for a new Asian style restaurant (good mix of nationals, expats and tourists)

Alvin has been very helpful re Oaxaca, TundraGreen here re Guadalajara, no-one yet for Cuernavaca bit anyone who knows all three locations, I would welcome a comparison!

Any offers?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## ptrichmondmike

Charlie, if I were you I would reconsider Mexico. It sounds like you are really looking for a Barcelona, and you won't find it in Mexico.


----------



## TundraGreen

ptrichmondmike said:


> Charlie, if I were you I would reconsider Mexico. It sounds like you are really looking for a Barcelona, and you won't find it in Mexico.


I don't know if Charlie should start looking elsewhere, but I feel like he is looking for a perfect solution. He has been given lots of information about a few places. To really find out what they are like, he is going to have to visit them, and maybe, accept that no place will be perfect.


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> I don't know if Charlie should start looking elsewhere, but I feel like he is looking for a perfect solution. He has been given lots of information about a few places. To really find out what they are like, he is going to have to visit them, and maybe, accept that no place will be perfect.


I ma merely looking for some more specific information on these three cities and if possible some other people's views before I commit to traveling and investing considerable time and energy in the process. Planning is generally a good idea, I find.


----------



## Guest

*Barcelona ???*



ptrichmondmike said:


> Charlie, if I were you I would reconsider Mexico. It sounds like you are really looking for a Barcelona, and you won't find it in Mexico.


I don't know where you get Barcelona from..... funny! Actually it is my favourite city in Europe and being a Brit I have traveled there many times. It is a great city but not without its issues. I would not live there for several reasons, not least that the people are not at all friendly. They are catalan and staunchly so and don't even like anyone speaking Spanish there let alone English. I speak a little Catalan but not enough to be taken as a local for a long time. Other than that it has a lot of crime. 

On the plus side the wether is great, Ibiza is very close by high speed ferry and it has great food and culture but at a price! Also, not with half of under 25s in Spain without work, it is a little depressed like all Spain. It is in many ways a mini Rio with a great beach, shopping, culture and good business opportunities (in normal times).

ANyway, I am not sure why Barcelona came up but there is a the sort of potted summary I am looking for for my Mexican choices...

Anyone care to help? :focus:

Charlie


----------



## circle110

CharlieAustin said:


> Planning is generally a good idea, I find.


True, but Mexico has an amazing ability to waylay "the best laid plans of mice and men".

My personal two cents (which aren't even worth that much): 
Places have a sense of being and they either call to you or they don't. For example, we liked Xalapa very much but when we arrived in Guanajuato, it just called to us and that's where we decided to make our home. There are many things that Xalapa offers that Guanajuato can't but there was an "x" factor for us that made us decide that this was our place.

I would say invest the money in trips to those three cities. One of them may be the place for you but you won't know it until you're there.


----------



## Longford

CharlieAustin said:


> Thank you all for your contributions these last few weeks. I am planning to visit Oaxaca, Cuernavaca and surrounding towns and Guadalajara/Tlaquepaque.
> 
> I am still interested in any further advice or indeed anyone's vote on the best place in terms of:
> 
> Quality of life (parks, schools, air quality, safety, culture etc)
> Accomodation (availability of locales with adjoining/above accommodation at a good price)
> Business prospects for a new Asian style restaurant (good mix of nationals, expats and tourists)
> 
> Alvin has been very helpful re Oaxaca, TundraGreen here re Guadalajara, no-one yet for Cuernavaca bit anyone who knows all three locations, I would welcome a comparison!
> 
> Any offers?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Charlie


Mexico City
San Cristobal de las Casas
Puerto Vallarta
San Miguel de Allende
Tijuana

The above are cities I suggest you concentrate on.

I like Circle110s comments about crawling before you walk. Picking a spot will take time ... and instinct. You have to know more about Mexico as a whole before you get to that point.


----------



## Guest

circle110 said:


> True, but Mexico has an amazing ability to waylay "the best laid plans of mice and men".
> 
> My personal two cents (which aren't even worth that much):
> Places have a sense of being and they either call to you or they don't. For example, we liked Xalapa very much but when we arrived in Guanajuato, it just called to us and that's where we decided to make our home. There are many things that Xalapa offers that Guanajuato can't but there was an "x" factor for us that made us decide that this was our place.
> 
> I would say invest the money in trips to those three cities. One of them may be the place for you but you won't know it until you're there.


So if I may ask, what are good and bad for you about Xalapa and Guanajuato if you could describe them....?

Thanks

Charlie


----------



## kito1

Longford said:


> Mexico City
> San Cristobal de las Casas
> Puerto Vallarta
> San Miguel de Allende
> Tijuana
> 
> The above are cities I suggest you concentrate on.
> 
> I like Circle110s comments about crawling before you walk. Picking a spot will take time ... and instinct. You have to know more about Mexico as a whole before you get to that point.



I think he is already living in Puerto Vallarta...


----------



## Guest

Longford said:


> Mexico City
> San Cristobal de las Casas
> Puerto Vallarta
> San Miguel de Allende
> Tijuana
> 
> The above are cities I suggest you concentrate on.
> 
> I like Circle110s comments about crawling before you walk. Picking a spot will take time ... and instinct. You have to know more about Mexico as a whole before you get to that point.


Well considering I am trying to get out of Puerto Vallarta and specifically don't want a ****** gulch, thanks for your suggestions. I'll be right off to Tijuana - that's the answer I have been missing all this time or is it Cuidad Juarez? (large dollop of irony)...


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Well considering I am trying to get out of Puerto Vallarta and specifically don't want a ****** gulch, thanks for your suggestions. I'll be right off to Tijuana - that's the answer I have been missing all this time or is it Cuidad Juarez? (large dollop of irony)...


Charlie, this is just a suggestion. Take it as thou wilt.

You have come to the forum for help. You have asked essentially the same questions over and over. People have been very patient continuing to try to answer them. Now someone comes along who maybe has not read through all of the conversation and tries to be helpful and is met with sarcasm. 

Incidentally, I like both Tijuana and Ciudad Jaurez. Tijuana has the same climate as San Diego, perhaps the best climate in the US. Ciudad is an interesting town. If I wanted to visit my son in Denver frequently while continuing to live in Mexico, I might very well choose Ciudad Juarez. I once spent a very enjoyable afternoon in the museum just across the border in El Paso while waiting for a bus to Denver.


----------



## Guest

*Hypocrisy?*



TundraGreen said:


> Charlie, this is just a suggestion. Take it as thou wilt.
> 
> You have come to the forum for help. You have asked essentially the same questions over and over. People have been very patient continuing to try to answer them. Now someone comes along who maybe has not read through all of the conversation and tries to be helpful and is met with sarcasm.
> 
> Incidentally, I like both Tijuana and Ciudad Jaurez. Tijuana has the same climate as San Diego, perhaps the best climate in the US. Ciudad is an interesting town. If I wanted to visit my son in Denver frequently while continuing to live in Mexico, I might very well choose Ciudad Juarez. I once spent a very enjoyable afternoon in the museum just across the border in El Paso while waiting for a bus to Denver.


Dear TundraGreen

Thank you for the advice. I will take it on face value and appreciate the intent. A few observations:

1. I have not been asking the same questions over and over. I started with advice on Cuernavaca, opened the forum up to suggestions for other cities, I have reiterated my criteria to get to a short list and I am now quite resonantly asking for more details and cross comparisons on the three cities on the short list. You have kindly offered to help out with GDL, Alvin is available for Oaxaca but a am still looking for a contact in Cuernavaca. Where is the repitition there?

2. The post I replied to was ill-informed and I found it nothing more than funny. I was not being sarcastic at all. I was being ironic and there is a whole world of difference between these two forms of speech. I could say tht the issue here is that Americans really do not get irony even when it is spelt out to them (bog dollop of irony as it says clearly). How else does one take a post that tells me to move to where ai am and then suggests the most dangerous part of Mexico, in my opinion. Sorry but it was jut too weird, ai assumed it was a joke.

3. On the one hand you are actually taking issue with my ironic reply when you have out and out rudeness on here - see posts 34 and 35 - and then rudeness to me when I stand up and point this out - see the later post to me. Are you serious? That was not a rhetorical question by the way but a genuine question to ask how on Earth the standards on this forum are set!

I have been polite and patient here at all times and appreciate the help but quite honestly if you see me as being reetirive because you can't see the subtle difference in the questions or being rude because irony passes so far over our head, ai think I would have so little on common to render any advice as pointless. Do let me know if you are just having an inconsistent day, TundraGreen or whether ou really believe what you wrote. If so, I will bow out right now and look elsewhere for advice. If so, kindly re-think your position and then maybe someone can provide more info on Cuernavaca and a comparison. I did even give an example of what I want to know by addressing the post on Barcelona, random as that was! I guess random is ok here too, huh?

Sincerely 

Charlie.


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Dear TundraGreen
> 
> Thank you for the advice. I will take it on face value and appreciate the intent. A few observations:
> 
> 1. I have not been asking the same questions over and over. I started with advice on Cuernavaca, opened the forum up to suggestions for other cities, I have reiterated my criteria to get to a short list and I am now quite resonantly asking for more details and cross comparisons on the three cities on the short list. You have kindly offered to help out with GDL, Alvin is available for Oaxaca but a am still looking for a contact in Cuernavaca. Where is the repitition there?
> 
> 2. The post I replied to was ill-informed and I found it nothing more than funny. I was not being sarcastic at all. I was being ironic and there is a whole world of difference between these two forms of speech. I could say tht the issue here is that Americans really do not get irony even when it is spelt out to them (bog dollop of irony as it says clearly). How else does one take a post that tells me to move to where ai am and then suggests the most dangerous part of Mexico, in my opinion. Sorry but it was jut too weird, ai assumed it was a joke.
> 
> 3. On the one hand you are actually taking issue with my ironic reply when you have out and out rudeness on here - see posts 34 and 35 - and then rudeness to me when I stand up and point this out - see the later post to me. Are you serious? That was not a rhetorical question by the way but a genuine question to ask how on Earth the standards on this forum are set!
> 
> I have been polite and patient here at all times and appreciate the help but quite honestly if you see me as being reetirive because you can't see the subtle difference in the questions or being rude because irony passes so far over our head, ai think I would have so little on common to render any advice as pointless. Do let me know if you are just having an inconsistent day, TundraGreen or whether ou really believe what you wrote. If so, I will bow out right now and look elsewhere for advice. If so, kindly re-think your position and then maybe someone can provide more info on Cuernavaca and a comparison. I did even give an example of what I want to know by addressing the post on Barcelona, random as that was! I guess random is ok here too, huh?
> 
> Sincerely
> 
> Charlie.


As I said it was just a suggestion. Clearly, it looks different to you than it did to me. That is okay. The world is a more interesting place because we do not all agree.

I had a neighbor who told me Cuernavaca was the best place to live in Mexico but other than the weather, he didn't really expand on why he thought so. He was from Toluca.


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> As I said it was just a suggestion. Clearly, it looks different to you than it did to me. That is okay. The world is a more interesting place because we do not all agree.
> 
> I had a neighbor who told me Cuernavaca was the best place to live in Mexico but other than the weather, he didn't really expand on why he thought so. He was from Toluca.


I agree and I an very open to all suggestions. I have just been looking at Tijuana or the areas closeby as I love he weather in San Diego too and my wife and son love the zoo. If it really does have safer neighbourhoods and crossing the border is not too lengthy a process, it might well be an option.

Are there safe areas in and around Tijuana and how long does it take to cross the busiest borderin the world?.....

Charlie


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> I agree and I an very open to all suggestions. I have just been looking at Tijuana or the areas closeby as I love he weather in San Diego too and my wife and son love the zoo. If it really does have safer neighbourhoods and crossing the border is not too lengthy a process, it might well be an option.
> 
> Are there safe areas in and around Tijuana and how long does it take to cross the busiest borderin the world?.....
> 
> Charlie


Crossing the border is a real pain. If you are going to do it often you would want to apply, and pay for, a SENTRI pass. I have only walked across and going north it always takes over an hour standing in line. The car lines are even longer I have heard. Coming back into Mexico is a snap. On foot, no one even stops you. There is a red/green button and an migracion officer standing next to it, but they don't ask you to press it. The officer just watches the people walk into Mexico. I think driving is equally easy. There is a San Diego Trolley stop right next to the border so it is very convenient.

I haven't lived in Tijuana so others will have to comment on the neighborhoods. I have roamed around between the airport, bus station, centro and the border and never felt threatened even in at night.

I once considered living in Ensenada about 65 kilometers to the south. It is a pretty quiet town. I was there during the flu scare several years ago. The cruise ships were not stopping there and it was really quiet. There was a herd of giant elephant seals that hung out on the piers in the marina. They were impressive and would let you get within a few feet before they dove off. The marina staff didn't like them because they were so heavy that they broke down the piers getting up on them. Rosarita Beach is another nearby place that is often mentioned, but I have never been there.

Border crossing times and other info


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> Crossing the border is a real pain. If you are going to do it often you would want to apply, and pay for, a SENTRI pass. I have only walked across and going north it always takes over an hour standing in line. The car lines are even longer I have heard. Coming back into Mexico is a snap. On foot, no one even stops you. There is a red/green button and an migracion officer standing next to it, but they don't ask you to press it. The officer just watches the people walk into Mexico. I think driving is equally easy. There is a San Diego Trolley stop right next to the border so it is very convenient.
> 
> I haven't lived in Tijuana so others will have to comment on the neighborhoods. I have roamed around between the airport, bus station, centro and the border and never felt threatened even in at night.
> 
> I once considered living in Ensenada about 65 kilometers to the south. It is a pretty quiet town. I was there during the flu scare several years ago. The cruise ships were not stopping there and it was really quiet. There was a herd of giant elephant seals that hung out on the piers in the marina. They were impressive and would let you get within a few feet before they dove off. The marina staff didn't like them because they were so heavy that they broke down the piers getting up on them. Rosarita Beach is another nearby place that is often mentioned, but I have never been there.
> 
> Border crossing times and other info


Thank you TundraGreem...

Re Sentri, how US-centric can you get? Not a single website gives clear information as to who is eligible nto even the Official site and even this one assumes everyone is a US or Mexican citizen which of course none of us are.

SENTRI Program Requirements | US Immigration Visa & Travel

I assume the rest of the world might be eligible but who knows.

Tijuana seems t have some nice parks though.

Charlie


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Thank you TundraGreem...
> 
> Re Sentri, how US-centric can you get? Not a single website gives clear information as to who is eligible nto even the Official site and even this one assumes everyone is a US or Mexican citizen which of course none of us are.
> 
> SENTRI Program Requirements | US Immigration Visa & Travel
> 
> I assume the rest of the world might be eligible but who knows.
> 
> Tijuana seems t have some nice parks though.
> 
> Charlie


Sorry, I didn't remember that SENTRI was for US and Mexico citizens only, nor did I remember that you are British when I suggested it. However, I don't understand your comment about lack of clear information. It looks to me like the link you included states the requirements pretty clearly.


----------



## AlanMexicali

CharlieAustin said:


> Thank you TundraGreem...
> 
> Re Sentri, how US-centric can you get? Not a single website gives clear information as to who is eligible nto even the Official site and even this one assumes everyone is a US or Mexican citizen which of course none of us are.
> 
> SENTRI Program Requirements | US Immigration Visa & Travel
> 
> I assume the rest of the world might be eligible but who knows.
> 
> Tijuana seems t have some nice parks though.
> 
> Charlie


Tijuana is not warm for the couple of winter months, in fact is the same climate as San Luis Potosi and Querataro. The spring is much cooler than here and it really depends in the spring, summer and fall where you live. Closer to the Pacific is generally cool and cool at night. Inland is warmer or even hot those months and cool at night. The parks are all small and cluttered and some are dangerous after dark. 

The average niegborhood is mostly splattered with unkept houses and businesses and some empty lots full of trash. The traffic is much worse than here and there is only one freeway which is only east - west and not complete. The many hills make it hard to navagate however you will get to know the routes. 

They have no numbers on houses or businesses and many street signs are missing everywhere except the larger streets. Potholes in winter are sometimes 4 ft. round and 2 ft. deep and they take their time filling them. 

Taxi meters don´t work or so they say and charge you what they can get; tourists usually pay double or there abouts. 

Querataro and San Luis Potosi are undeniably better than TJ in many regards, especially parks and cleanliness, except it is across the border from San Diego and 2 hours from LA. My opinion only.

A popular song 5 or 6 years ago was: "¿Que Fea Tijuana Es.?" [ Tijuana is that ugly? ]


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> …
> Re Sentri, how US-centric can you get? Not a single website gives clear information as to who is eligible nto even the Official site and even this one assumes everyone is a US or Mexican citizen which of course none of us are.
> …


It is not surprising to me that a US government web page talking about the US border might be US-centric. I didn't see it assuming "everyone is a US or Mexican citizen", it just says that only those are eligible. That doesn't seem unreasonable for a US-Mexico border crossing station. I can understand that the rule might be frustrating to citizens of other countries who end up needing to cross that border frequently.

And I don't understand the comment that "of course none of us are". Many are, including by far most of the Tijuana border crossers.


----------



## Guest

TundraGreen said:


> It is not surprising to me that a US government web page talking about the US border might be US-centric. I didn't see it assuming "everyone is a US or Mexican citizen", it just says that only those are eligible. That doesn't seem unreasonable for a US-Mexico border crossing station. I can understand that the rule might be frustrating to citizens of other countries who end up needing to cross that border frequently.
> 
> And I don't understand the comment that "of course none of us are". Many are, including by far most of the Tijuana border crossers.


Agreed.... "none of us" = not my wife, child, son or anyone else in my immediate family...


----------



## Guest

AlanMexicali said:


> Tijuana is not warm for the couple of winter months, in fact is the same climate as San Luis Potosi and Querataro. The spring is much cooler than here and it really depends in the spring, summer and fall where you live. Closer to the Pacific is generally cool and cool at night. Inland is warmer or even hot those months and cool at night. The parks are all small and cluttered and some are dangerous after dark.
> 
> The average niegborhood is mostly splattered with unkept houses and businesses and some empty lots full of trash. The traffic is much worse than here and there is only one freeway which is only east - west and not complete. The many hills make it hard to navagate however you will get to know the routes.
> 
> They have no numbers on houses or businesses and many street signs are missing everywhere except the larger streets. Potholes in winter are sometimes 4 ft. round and 2 ft. deep and they take their time filling them.
> 
> Taxi meters don´t work or so they say and charge you what they can get; tourists usually pay double or there abouts.
> 
> Querataro and San Luis Potosi are undeniably better than TJ in many regards, especially parks and cleanliness, except it is across the border from San Diego and 2 hours from LA. My opinion only.
> 
> A popular song 5 or 6 years ago was: "¿Que Fea Tijuana Es.?" [ Tijuana is that ugly? ]


That is a perfect description of Puerto Vallarta - no signs, potholes, stealing taxistas, terrible traffic (buses are the worst I have seen anywhere in Mexico or the world (they say in Spanish here - "tienen licencia to matar"... and of course absolutely NO parks.


----------



## TundraGreen

CharlieAustin said:


> Agreed.... "none of us" = not my wife, child, son or anyone else in my immediate family...


 Ahh. Now I get it.


----------



## Guest

Read this website for something far more interesting - 

World Insider Travel Guides - The truth about nations, their people and the journey there - The Guru...

I particularly love the piece on Selfish America!

Bye


----------



## cuylers5746

*Hang in there*

Hi Charlie & Tundra Green;

Hey guys we all have good hair days and bad hair days and some times we wish we hadn't said some things in such a way. Hey this is Mexico, and we need to follow by their examples - let the water fall off your back. If the Mexicano's hadn't been practicing this policy for over a century we wouldn't even be discussing these things on this forum - we wouldn't be here.

Considering what's going on in the World at large and Middle East in particular - these irritants are nothing. 

Cuyler


----------



## Mad Hatter

*Very Interestng*

I read the entire 15 page thread because I'm looking for a location for my wife and I to live for about 8-10 years until we are eligible for Medicare. 

I started out most interested in Queretaro due to I like the size, great climate, low crime rate, etc. I became interested in Cuernavaca due to a little warmer and proximity to MC. I've spent a lot of time tryng to research climate, crime, cost of living, food, and things to do in several areas. 

Because my wife and I want to practice Bikram yoga or at least some form of hot yoga, I started looking at a few places that have bikram studios including Toluca/Metepec, Guadalajara, and San Luis Potosi. 

So I guess my order of preference is currently:

Toluca/Metepec - nice size, low cost, has bikram, 70 KM from Mex city is pretty ideal. Disadvantage is due to the elevation, it's a bit cooler but compared to where I live, much warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.

Guadalajara - I think Charlie's comments about GDL jive with what I've heard about seeming ticking the boxes but still something seems to be missing.

San Luis Potosi - A little more isolated than I would prefer and maybe a little more crime but everything else seems excellent

Qeretaro - I still like Q but no Bikram is a major disadvantage for us.

Other countries I'm considering are Peru, Thailand, Philippines & Malaysia.

Anyone who has knolwedge of any of these areas is welcomed to comment.


----------



## conklinwh

Mad Hatter said:


> I read the entire 15 page thread because I'm looking for a location for my wife and I to live for about 8-10 years until we are eligible for Medicare.
> 
> I started out most interested in Queretaro due to I like the size, great climate, low crime rate, etc. I became interested in Cuernavaca due to a little warmer and proximity to MC. I've spent a lot of time tryng to research climate, crime, cost of living, food, and things to do in several areas.
> 
> Because my wife and I want to practice Bikram yoga or at least some form of hot yoga, I started looking at a few places that have bikram studios including Toluca/Metepec, Guadalajara, and San Luis Potosi.
> 
> So I guess my order of preference is currently:
> 
> Toluca/Metepec - nice size, low cost, has bikram, 70 KM from Mex city is pretty ideal. Disadvantage is due to the elevation, it's a bit cooler but compared to where I live, much warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.
> 
> Guadalajara - I think Charlie's comments about GDL jive with what I've heard about seeming ticking the boxes but still something seems to be missing.
> 
> San Luis Potosi - A little more isolated than I would prefer and maybe a little more crime but everything else seems excellent
> 
> Qeretaro - I still like Q but no Bikram is a major disadvantage for us.
> 
> Other countries I'm considering are Peru, Thailand, Philippines & Malaysia.
> 
> Anyone who has knolwedge of any of these areas is welcomed to comment.


There is a lot of yoga practitioners in and around San Miguel, some 45min from QRO.

As to the ASEAN countries. I spent 3 years in the late '90's covering 11 countries from India to the Philippines out of Singapore. I seriously thought of retiring there and looked into a number of places. My favorite is probably Bali around the area of Ubud which certainly had a lot of yoga. However if I had retired in Asia, it would have probably been Phuket. I guess good that I didn't as place where I was renting disappeared in the Tsunami. There are certainly a lot of options where each has pros & cons but probably not for a Mexico forum.


----------



## stilltraveling

Mad Hatter said:


> Because my wife and I want to practice Bikram yoga or at least some form of hot yoga, I started looking at a few places that have bikram studios including Toluca/Metepec, Guadalajara, and San Luis Potosi.


Did you look into Tepoztlán? Close to Mexico, practically a sleeper community for Cuernavaca (about 20 minutes away), yet none of the drawbacks of a big urban center. There is a very active yoga community there (though I'm not sure about the different techniques) and a very "interesting" mix of expats. It's probably the closest thing to Santa Cruz California south of the Rio Bravo.


----------



## vantexan

I've been reading forever about Mexico but my actual experience is limited to the border and a few short trips into the far North. Had pretty much decided on Oaxaca for overall convenience, costs and quality of life. Oaxaca is well known for it's regional cuisine, cultural events, colonial atmosphere. It has an English speaking community anchored by an English library and an excellent English bookstore. There also appears to be serious poverty in the area, and political protests are common, devolving in 2006 into riots and some deaths. I've kept looking, reading here and elsewhere, find many of the places mentioned in this thread very interesting, but this is what I want overall: great food including especially great street food, great walking in an unique atmosphere, reasonably fast transport by bus to Mexico City or Toluca airports, reasonably priced rent, great mountain scenery, mild to cool weather(absolutely no heat with humidity), excellent movie theaters, reasonably safe and well policed, excellent Internet. Not much, huh? I think I've found this in Puebla. Hadn't really considered it before as it's a large city, but it has Mexico's largest colonial center, a UNESCO World Heritage site at that. EVERY post or blog I've found on it's centro has been extremely positive. And Puebla may have the overall best food in the country, which is saying something. If it's size is a problem it has some very popular suburbs, especially Cholula. Also Atlixco is about 20 miles out, 85,000 population, has spectacular views of the volcano, and possibly Mexico's best climate. Cholula has a very large student population as well as it's own nice centro and markets and very quick access by bus into Puebla. I could rent a cheap student apartment, take long walks, and have a huge amount of choice for eating and entertainment. Puebla's major bus terminal has direct busses to Mexico City's airport. Puebla was a popular immigrant destination in the early 1900's for Germans, French, Italians and Lebanese so it's a diverse place too, with that reflected in much of it's cuisine. All in all Puebla seems to fit the bill for me. I've lived in Seattle, Memphis and at the edge of the New York metro area. I don't mind a big enough place with plenty to do but the huge Mexico City/New York City type places are a bit overwhelming.


----------



## vantexan

Should correct the distance of Atlixco from Puebla. It's 24 kilometers from Puebla, about 15 miles. According to Wikipedia it's population is a little over 86,000, with a municipality population of a bit over 122,000. It's a decent size town in it's own right.


----------



## DNP

You've done your homework. Oaxaca is truly a great city, as is Puebla. But make no mistake about either: They're both big cities.



vantexan said:


> I've been reading forever about Mexico but my actual experience is limited to the border and a few short trips into the far North. Had pretty much decided on Oaxaca for overall convenience, costs and quality of life. Oaxaca is well known for it's regional cuisine, cultural events, colonial atmosphere. It has an English speaking community anchored by an English library and an excellent English bookstore. There also appears to be serious poverty in the area, and political protests are common, devolving in 2006 into riots and some deaths. I've kept looking, reading here and elsewhere, find many of the places mentioned in this thread very interesting, but this is what I want overall: great food including especially great street food, great walking in an unique atmosphere, reasonably fast transport by bus to Mexico City or Toluca airports, reasonably priced rent, great mountain scenery, mild to cool weather(absolutely no heat with humidity), excellent movie theaters, reasonably safe and well policed, excellent Internet. Not much, huh? I think I've found this in Puebla. Hadn't really considered it before as it's a large city, but it has Mexico's largest colonial center, a UNESCO World Heritage site at that. EVERY post or blog I've found on it's centro has been extremely positive. And Puebla may have the overall best food in the country, which is saying something. If it's size is a problem it has some very popular suburbs, especially Cholula. Also Atlixco is about 20 miles out, 85,000 population, has spectacular views of the volcano, and possibly Mexico's best climate. Cholula has a very large student population as well as it's own nice centro and markets and very quick access by bus into Puebla. I could rent a cheap student apartment, take long walks, and have a huge amount of choice for eating and entertainment. Puebla's major bus terminal has direct busses to Mexico City's airport. Puebla was a popular immigrant destination in the early 1900's for Germans, French, Italians and Lebanese so it's a diverse place too, with that reflected in much of it's cuisine. All in all Puebla seems to fit the bill for me. I've lived in Seattle, Memphis and at the edge of the New York metro area. I don't mind a big enough place with plenty to do but the huge Mexico City/New York City type places are a bit overwhelming.


Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


----------



## vantexan

DNP said:


> You've done your homework. Oaxaca is truly a great city, as is Puebla. But make no mistake about either: They're both big cities.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using ExpatForum


From what I'm reading though greater Puebla is at least 4 times the size of Oaxaca with suburbs that are pretty decent for living in their own right. Combine that with closer access to all Central Mexico offers, plus those huge volcanoes, makes it a better option for me. But hey, Oaxaca is a more manageable size, close enough to great beaches, appears to have a much larger expat community. Once I get there and check things out may decide it's a better fit.


----------



## Mad Hatter

conklinwh said:


> There is a lot of yoga practitioners in and around San Miguel, some 45min from QRO.


I will put San Miguel on the list to look at along with QRO. They both have great climates and from what I've heard, both are very safe. 

If anyone have an opinion about Toluca/Metepec, I would sure like to hear it. I haven't seen much about this city but it seems to tick all the boxes we have.


----------



## Mad Hatter

vantexan said:


> From what I'm reading though greater Puebla is at least 4 times the size of Oaxaca with suburbs that are pretty decent for living in their own right. Combine that with closer access to all Central Mexico offers, plus those huge volcanoes, makes it a better option for me. But hey, Oaxaca is a more manageable size, close enough to great beaches, appears to have a much larger expat community. Once I get there and check things out may decide it's a better fit.


Puebla is a beautiful city. When I played college basketball, we played a game against Universidad de las Americas just outside of Puebla. That was over 30 years ago but I just looked them up and they have 7500 students there. At the time, it made a very positive impression on me and the American students we talked to loved being there.


----------



## vantexan

Mad Hatter said:


> Puebla is a beautiful city. When I played college basketball, we played a game against Universidad de las Americas just outside of Puebla. That was over 30 years ago but I just looked them up and they have 7500 students there. At the time, it made a very positive impression on me and the American students we talked to loved being there.


Thanks, more positive feedback on Cholula/Puebla! Two more years until I can move down. I believe Metepec made the Pueblos Magicos list this year.


----------



## Isla Verde

Mad Hatter said:


> If anyone have an opinion about Toluca/Metepec, I would sure like to hear it. I haven't seen much about this city but it seems to tick all the boxes we have.


The couple of friends I have who lived in Toluca escaped as soon as they could for Mexico City. Their main complaint was how boring the place was. And it gets very cold there in the winter.


----------



## Lauren_B

It also depends on your taste, I was in Puebla for six months and it wasn't for me because of the provincial conservatism, on that front I was much happier in Cuernavaca since there's a bigger variety of people here and more possibilities to go to DF for cultural life (or Tepotzlan for a quirky escape). I don't think Toluca would be that great but there is quite a boom around Estado de Mexico (Metepec included) and seems affordable. Why don't you visit first, there are so many possibilities in central Mexico that you could sort of get a better feel if you go there first.


----------



## Isla Verde

Lauren_B said:


> It also depends on your taste, I was in Puebla for six months and it wasn't for me because of the provincial conservatism, on that front I was much happier in Cuernavaca since there's a bigger variety of people here and more possibilities to go to DF for cultural life (or Tepotzlan for a quirky escape). I don't think Toluca would be that great but there is quite a boom around Estado de Mexico (Metepec included) and seems affordable. Why don't you visit first, there are so many possibilities in central Mexico that you could sort of get a better feel if you go there first.


Don't forget about the weather - Cuernavaca is warmer than Puebla and Toluca is much, much colder, especially in the winter!


----------



## AlanMexicali

Lauren_B said:


> It also depends on your taste, I was in Puebla for six months and it wasn't for me because of the provincial conservatism, on that front I was much happier in Cuernavaca since there's a bigger variety of people here and more possibilities to go to DF for cultural life (or Tepotzlan for a quirky escape). I don't think Toluca would be that great but there is quite a boom around Estado de Mexico (Metepec included) and seems affordable. Why don't you visit first, there are so many possibilities in central Mexico that you could sort of get a better feel if you go there first.


I have to go back to Puebla soon. Here in San Luis Potosi it is provincial conservative, but I adapted nicely. Of course I am now a senior citizen. :confused2: Alan


----------



## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> Don't forget about the weather - Cuernavaca is warmer than Puebla and Toluca is much, much colder, especially in the winter!


Wouldn't know it today. It's freezing! 

At least we finally got some rain. It's been dry for 4 months. I was starting to think I was in Sonora.


----------



## Isla Verde

stilltraveling said:


> Wouldn't know it today. It's freezing!
> 
> At least we finally got some rain. It's been dry for 4 months. I was starting to think I was in Sonora.


Of course, it's been dry for 4 months - the rainy season doesn't start till June, except for the occasional out-of-season rain, like the shower we're having right now in Mexico City.


----------



## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> Of course, it's been dry for 4 months - the rainy season doesn't start till June, except for the occasional out-of-season rain, like the shower we're having right now in Mexico City.


The dry season starts after those miserable cold drizzles we get all November in Cuernavaca. By the time it gets here, it is usually quite welcome. However, after a few months it really starts to wear on me. It felt great to wake up this morning to the smell of wet soil.


----------



## Isla Verde

stilltraveling said:


> The dry season starts after those miserable cold drizzles we get all November in Cuernavaca. By the time it gets here, it is usually quite welcome. However, after a few months it really starts to wear on me. It felt great to wake up this morning to the smell of wet soil.


I've never been in Cuernavaca in November, so now I know that's not a good time for a visit. If I want to enjoy the smell of wet soil today, I´ll have to take the bus to Chapultepec or stick my nose in one of the potted geraniums sitting on my plant balcony.


----------



## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> I've never been in Cuernavaca in November, so now I know that's not a good time for a visit. If I want to enjoy the smell of wet soil today, I´ll have to take the bus to Chapultepec or stick my nose in one of the potted geraniums sitting on my plant balcony.


LOL! 

Keep in mind that the weather in Cuernavaca isn't the weather in all of Cuernavaca. There are essentially 3 climates here. 

On the high side around Santa Maria, Buenavista, Lienzo Charro, etc., it is much cooler and tends to get enveloped in clouds so sometimes it's raining there and nowhere else. Even when it's not raining everything is still wet from all the clouds. 

The low side around Jiutepec and Temixco is much warmer and drier all the time. The middle part, around downtown and the classic touristy areas, is the Eternal Spring they always talk about. Even today the rain has already stopped here but I can see from my balcony that it's still falling in Santa Maria. 

Somebody had the bright idea to build this city right on the side of a mountain slope. It makes it hard to get around but I have to admit that 3 years of all these hills have done wonders for my legs. Now if I could only do something about the belly. :confused2:


----------



## mexikatz

stilltraveling said:


> LOL!
> It makes it hard to get around but I have to admit that 3 years of all these hills have done wonders for my legs. Now if I could only do something about the belly. :confused2:


We have only been here a couple months and we do a lot of walking every day. I have to say, my feet and ankles have never been as sore as they have been here. I just got done soaking my feet in epsom salt. All this concrete and uneven stone streets is going to take some getting used to. I need a nice dirt trail or grassy field - better yet a nice sandy beach.


----------



## stilltraveling

mexikatz said:


> We have only been here a couple months and we do a lot of walking every day. I have to say, my feet and ankles have never been as sore as they have been here. I just got done soaking my feet in epsom salt. All this concrete and uneven stone streets is going to take some getting used to. I need a nice dirt trail or grassy field - better yet a nice sandy beach.


There aren't 10 meters of level ground anywhere in this city. Still, when I'm taking a shower, and I manage to look around the belly, I realize I have the calves of a professional soccer player.


----------



## Marishka

cuylers5746 said:


> Hey Charlie;
> 
> I didn't realize you're from London. One of my best buddies in life Stephen Leek is from Ringwood, U.K. and is probably one of the top 25 Commercial Photographers in the USA. Moved to E.E.U.U. when 11 and hasn't missed a lick with the ole accent.


Has anyone heard from Cuyler lately? I thought of him when I saw the current threads about Tepic. 

Cuyler, you and I have a "six degrees of separation" link. I don't know Stephen Leek, but I did meet his mother, Sybil Leek, in Dallas back in 1972. Stephen took the gorgeous photographs for their book _A Ring of Magic Islands_.

I hope you return to the forum soon to share more of your knowledge of interesting places in Mexico. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts about cities like Tepic and Ensenada.


----------



## soulpatch

So Charlie, 

Where'd you end up?


----------

