# Coyoac�n



## Marishka

*Coyoacán*

I’ve been reading some books about Mexico City lately, and have discovered that what I don’t know about that great city is…a lot! But I’m learning as fast as I can.

One Barrio Mágico in Mexico City that caught my attention is Coyoacán. Its name is from Nahuatl, meaning “place of coyotes.” A place with a name referring to coyotes feels like home to me, because coyotes are a part of my life--I hear them yipping and howling almost every evening at my home in Texas. _ Yippee-i-o-ki-ay_

In a way, Coyoacán reminds me of Tlaquepaque because they were both once villages in rural settings that were swallowed up by big cities, yet have kept their village charm. And charm is the key word here. 

I think I’m in love.  I’ve become positively smitten with Coyoacán, or at least with the _idea_ of Coyoacán, if that makes any sense. 

Here are some highlights from Coyoacán’s page on Wikipedia: 


> *Villa Coyoacán or historic center*
> Consisting now of 29 blocks, it is one of the oldest neighborhoods in Mexico City, located 10 km south of the Zocalo (main square) of Mexico City. This area is filled with narrow cobblestone streets and small plazas, which were laid out during the colonial period, and today give the area a distinct and bohemian identity. The area is filled with mostly single family homes, which were former mansions and country homes built between the colonial period to the mid 20th century. The Project for Public Spaces ranked the neighborhood as one of the best urban spaces to live in North America in 2005 and is the only Mexican neighborhood on the list. This area was designated as a "Barrio Mágico" by the city in 2011.
> 
> People come to enjoy the still somewhat rural atmosphere of the area as well as the large number of restaurants, cafes, cantinas, museums, bookstores and other cultural attractions. Some of these businesses have been around for almost a century. In the two main plazas and even in smaller ones such as the one in the neighboring Santa Catarina neighborhood. Mimes, clowns, musicians, folk and indigenous dancers, storytellers and other street performers can be found entertaining crowds. Vendors sell street food such as ice cream, homemade fruit drinks, esquites (flavored corn kernels) and corn-on-the-cob served with mayonnaise, lime, chili pepper and grated cheese, amaranth bars, and various candies. In the evening, food vendors tend to sell more hot items such as quesadillas, sopes, tortas, tostadas, pozoles and more. One known food vendor goes by the name of Rogelio. He is known for making pancakes (called hotcakes) in the shape of animals and humans. These are usually eaten as a snack with jam, cream and other toppings.





> *The borough*
> Coyoacán was ranked third best place to live in the country in 2004 by the United Nations Development Programme, behind Benito Juarez and San Pedro Garza García in Nuevo León. The ranking is based on income levels, health and education. Coyoacán was ranked sixth in education, fourth in income and fifth in health. In quality of life, which takes into account factors such as crime statistics, Coyoacán ranked second behind Benito Juarez in Mexico City. This ranks the quality of life as equivalent to that in developed countries. In 2004, Coyoacán was ranked the fifth most livable neighborhood in North America, ahead of Rittenhouse, Philadelphia and behind Camden, Maine.


Btw, yesterday when I was pulling crime stats from the “La violencia en los municipios de México 2012,” I noticed Coyoacán on that list. With a population of 617,357, Coyoacán had 19 murders last year, a rate of 3.08 per 100,000. This place is practically Mayberry. 

Of course, we know that Coyoacán can’t be all bunnies and unicorns, so I’ll throw in this downer from Wikipedia, too:


> Despite its rural past with villages and farmlands, today the borough is urban, with all of its territory paved and developed with the exception of parks and other reserved green spaces as it is completely integrated with the urban sprawl of Mexico City. This has brought a number of problems to the area. Traffic in Coyoacán is some of the worst in the city. While there are 70.7 km of primary roads through the borough, with 8,200,947m2 of pavement, many sections have maintained the narrow winding streets and plazas from its colonial past. These sections bring in a large number of visitors, especially on weekends and holidays, with these roads unable to cope with the volume of traffic and need for parking. Other issues are graffiti and vandalism, and other crimes, the most serious of which is theft/robber, followed by assault. However, Coyoacán generates only 7.2% of all crime reports in Mexico City.


Hey, no place is perfect. 

I’d love to hear more about Coyoacán from those of you who have been there. Remember, I’m kind of in love with this place, so if it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, please break it to me gently.


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## Isla Verde

Coyoacán is a lovely neighborhood in the southern part of Mexico City but not terribly far from the Centro Histórico. I wouldn't say it has a "rural atmosphere" or "village charm", but it would be a nice place to live, albeit a somewhat pricey one. Once the home of Frida Kahló and Diego Rivera, it still attracts many of the city's intelligentsia and artists. On its outskirts you'll find the home of the Cineteca Nacional (a perfect place for film buffs to get their fill of the best in Mexican and foreign films), and Coyoacán does have several excellent museums.


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## TundraGreen

Marishka said:


> … In a way, Coyoacán reminds me of Tlaquepaque because they were both once villages in rural settings that were swallowed up by big cities, yet have kept their village charm. And charm is the key word here. …


I am not sure I would use "village charm" to describe the Tlaquepaque of today either. The center of it is mostly tourists looking at the expensive art and clothing stores. The remainder is urban residential.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> Coyoacán is a lovely neighborhood in the southern part of Mexico City but not terribly far from the Centro Histórico. I wouldn't say it has a "rural atmosphere" or "village charm", but it would be a nice place to live, albeit a somewhat pricey one.


According to _Mexico City: An Opinionated Guide for the Curious Traveler_, it "preserves an aura of small town colonial charm." In your opinion, is that accurate?



Isla Verde said:


> Once the home of Frida Kahló and Diego Rivera, it still attracts many of the city's intelligentsia and artists.


I read that it's near the University and is a favored place for professors to live.



Isla Verde said:


> On its outskirts you'll find the home of the Cineteca Nacional (a perfect place for film buffs to get their fill of the best in Mexican and foreign films), and Coyoacán does have several excellent museums.


I love museums and foreign films!

The second part of your statement, "a nice place to live, *albeit a somewhat pricey one*" may be the deal killer here. But a girl can dream. 

This is an article with suggested 3-hour, 5-hour, and 6-hour walks: A walking tour of historical Coyoacán



TundraGreen said:


> I am not sure I would use "village charm" to describe the Tlaquepaque of today either. The center of it is mostly tourists looking at the expensive art and clothing stores. The remainder is urban residential.


Could somebody please pass me an umbrella, because my parade seems to be getting rained on. :lalala:

Actually, I do want your unvarnished opinions, so thank you.


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## sparks

It's been over 15 years but some very attractive plazas ... almost European. Can't remember if it was a leg off the main plaza or separate but lined with coffee shops and art galleries. I'm sure there is a Starbucks there by now. Close to UNAM so lots of students or younger types. Lots better air in the south of the city


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## Isla Verde

Marishka said:


> [I read that it's near the University and is a favored place for professors to live.]
> 
> *It's four long stops on the subway from Coyoacán to the University, which isn't really near the UNAM. I imagine that full professors could afford to live there, but not your run-of-the-mill instructor.
> *
> 
> [I love museums and foreign films!]
> 
> *So do I, but most of the really important museums in the city are located elsewhere, and there are many other foreign-film venues in the DF.*
> 
> [The second part of your statement, "a nice place to live, *albeit a somewhat pricey one*" may be the deal killer here. But a girl can dream. ]
> 
> *I've never looked for a place to live in Coyoacán, but then I'm on a fairly limited budget. You could try cruising websites like segundamano to see what rents are like there.
> *
> [Could somebody please pass me an umbrella, because my parade seems to be getting rained on. :lalala:]
> 
> *Sorry about that, but, after all, it is the rainy season in this part of the country. It's good that you're asking all these questions. I hope our answers make it clear that you can't rely on sources like Wikipedia, et al. for accurate information about a place you'd like to make your new home. Come down for an extended visit and spend lots of time wandering around areas that interest you is the way to do it.
> *
> [Actually, I do want your unvarnished opinions, so thank you.]


Anyway, feel free to keep your questions coming.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Coyoacán is a lovely neighborhood in the southern part of Mexico City but not terribly far from the Centro Histórico. I wouldn't say it has a "rural atmosphere" or "village charm", but it would be a nice place to live, albeit a somewhat pricey one. Once the home of Frida Kahló and Diego Rivera, it still attracts many of the city's intelligentsia and artists. On its outskirts you'll find the home of the Cineteca Nacional (a perfect place for film buffs to get their fill of the best in Mexican and foreign films), and Coyoacán does have several excellent museums.


I agree on it is not a village or pueblo anymore, very nice place to live, lots of history, culture, traditions, intelectuals, artists. Very nice neighbors
I' m a coyoacanense myself


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## sparks

That was very hard to decipher Isla .... but yes the subway does not go sideways. They all go into centro.

We had a car and Coyoacán is not that far from UNAM (15-20mins with traffic) or easy on local bus. It had the closest Home Depot which is what I needed to help fix up their campus apartment.


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## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> That was very hard to decipher Isla .... but yes the subway does not go sideways. They all go into centro.
> 
> We had a car and Coyoacán is not that far from UNAM (15-20mins with traffic) or easy on local bus. It had the closest Home Depot which is what I needed to help fix up their campus apartment.


Was this a recent visit to Coyoacán?


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## maesonna

When talking about how far the UNAM is from Coyoacán, it could get confusing depending on terms. 

The main UNAM campus is actually _within_ the _delegación_ (borough) of Coyoacán, but if you are talking about the distance between the UNAM and the centro (historic downtown) of Coyoacán, it is indeed 4 stops on the subway or a 10–20 min. drive.


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## Marishka

sparks said:


> It's been over 15 years but some very attractive plazas ... almost European. Can't remember if it was a leg off the main plaza or separate but lined with coffee shops and art galleries. I'm sure there is a Starbucks there by now. Close to UNAM so lots of students or younger types. Lots better air in the south of the city


"Almost European" sounds quite appealing to me. And I like the comment about "better air" because I can almost count on someone telling me that any place I am attracted to has terrible air pollution.

I ended up checking the Coyoacán listings on airbnb to look at the photos (it took forever, since I'm on dial-up), and there are certainly some interesting people renting out rooms and houses there. For example:

Alexander: A musician and entrepreneur who speaks German, English, Spanish, French, Italian, and Portuguese

Jose: A biologist who specializes in hydroponics and productive greenhouses for growing lettuce and tomatos and ornamental greenhouses of orchids, and teaches courses and classes from kindergarten up to technical school

Trisha: A documentary film maker/photo curator

Paul: A French business consultant and "grand voyageur” who speaks Spanish, French, English and Italian

Alicia: A green building consultant

Yoab: An artist, curator and art consultant

Marcela & Carlos: A composer and a philosophy professor

Rosa María: A journalist and writer

From now on, if anyone asks me what I'm looking for in a place to live, I'll just point them to this description that Alexander posted:

"Coyoacán is simply the loveliest suburb of Mexico City; the neighborhood is great... very clean, safe, and calm, with lots of restaurants to choose from… everything just steps away from vibrant bustling squares and plazas -- reminiscent of a European city. Although quiet and leafy, there are still tons of things to do here without ever leaving the "barrio": museums, galleries, restaurants, markets, theatre, dance, movies, music… and the metro stops are pretty close, too."


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## Isla Verde

I wonder why Alexander says that Coyoacán is a "suburb" of Mexico City. It's not a suburb but an integral part of the D.F.


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## citlali

Funny I never thought of European when I went there more like a quieter district of Mexico. I would not refer to it as a suburb either. I guess in the past it was a separate town but so were Tlaquepaque and Tonala, still have their own personality but they are not suburbs either.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder why Alexander says that Coyoacán is a "suburb" of Mexico City. It's not a suburb but an integral part of the D.F.


English isn't Alexander's first language, so that might have something to do with his choice of words.


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## Anonimo

We visited Coyoacan for a comida date just 2 years ago. It's true that the Centro is charming. We walked as far as Frida's Casa Azul with a friend, but did not visit the casa, as we had been there years before..

NIce parks, coffeehouses, excellent bakery, good to excellent restaurants, but this is from the point of view of a tourist (me), not someone who lives there.

Also, please keep in mind that the descriptions that you read on Air B&B are advertisements designed to present rentable lodging in its best light. Not that the ads aren't true, they are just written to show only the most positive aspects.

Slightly off topic, I read what I consider the most ridiculous, overripe Air B&B puff the other day. (It's in California.) Optional Reading.

San Ángel could be charming as well, if you've the dinero (money.)


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## Marishka

Anonimo said:


> We visited Coyoacan for a comida date just 2 years ago. It's true that the Centro is charming. We walked as far as Frida's Casa Azul with a friend, but did not visit the casa, as we had been there years before..
> 
> NIce parks, coffeehouses, excellent bakery, good to excellent restaurants, but this is from the point of view of a tourist (me), not someone who lives there.


Awesome! We're planning to be tourists for our first two years in Mexico, so that will be my perspective for a while, too.



Anonimo said:


> Also, please keep in mind that the descriptions that you read on Air B&B are advertisements designed to present rentable lodging in its best light. Not that the ads aren't true, they are just written to show only the most positive aspects.


That's a good point. But any area that has even half of what Alexander posted would probably appeal to me, with the exception of the S word. I think of suburbs as places where people are car dependent, and where there's not much to see except houses and strip malls.

I'm looking for walkable areas with cafes, markets, music, interesting shops to explore, etc.



Anonimo said:


> San Ángel could be charming as well, if you've the dinero (money.)


I probably don't have the dinero, but I do have the curiosity, so I'll have to find out more about San Ángel now.


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## Longford

I find very little of Coyoacan ... interesting, or, I should say ... interesting to me. There are one or more colonias with the name of Coyoacan as part of it, and also the delegacion. So if looking for housing or businesses which describe their location as Coyoacan ... carefully verify just what that means. The portion of Coyoacan which seems most attractive to expats is the relatively small historic center which sees hordes of tourists almost daily (and especially on weekends). Housing in the historic center can be expensive, by Mexico City standards. It's a nice place to visit, some nice small restaurants/markets, the gardens and a couple of museums. There would be worse places for someone to live than Coyoacan ... if the person could locate housing on one of the edges of the tourist route there. Public transport is good.


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## GARYJ65

Marishka said:


> Awesome! We're planning to be tourists for our first two years in Mexico, so that will be my perspective for a while, too.
> 
> That's a good point. But any area that has even half of what Alexander posted would probably appeal to me, with the exception of the S word. I think of suburbs as places where people are car dependent, and where there's not much to see except houses and strip malls.
> 
> I'm looking for walkable areas with cafes, markets, music, interesting shops to explore, etc.
> 
> I probably don't have the dinero, but I do have the curiosity, so I'll have to find out more about San Ángel now.


You will like my Coyoacán, also San Angel, and now that you are on that path, you may want to find out about Tlalpan!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> You will like my Coyoacán, also San Angel, and now that you are on that path, you may want to find out about Tlalpan!


Tlalpan is really far away from the center of the city!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Tlalpan is really far away from the center of the city!


Of course it is!
But then again, in Mexico CIty, what is not far?
On the other hand...it it close to Coyoacán and San Angel!


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## Marishka

GARYJ65 said:


> You will like my Coyoacán, also San Angel, and now that you are on that path, you may want to find out about Tlalpan!


That's yet another place in Mexico I've never heard of! Thanks, I'll add it to my list of places to research. I've certainly got my work cut out for me. Good thing we still have 2 1/2 years to make our plans, although I have a feeling that I could just close my eyes, throw a dart at a map of Mexico, go to the place where the dart lands, and end up having a marvelous time.

We want to visit some other places in Latin America, such as Antigua and Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, Medellin and Cartagena in Colombia, and about 6 or 7 places in Ecuador. But Mexico is the only country that has literally dozens of places that we'd like to visit.

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions and advice. I really do appreciate it.


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## Guategringo

Marishka said:


> We want to visit some other places in Latin America, such as Antigua and Lake Atitlán in Guatemala, Thanks to everybody for your suggestions and advice. I really do appreciate it.


I just want you to know that my wife and I have moved back to Antigua, Guatemala. Mexico was nice for the 8 months we were there, but I have yet to encounter a law firm as corrupt as the one my wife worked for. They enjoy over-billing their clients, many od whom are either indigenous and cannot read Spanish or are foreignors and cannot read or speak the language. 

Just want you to know Marishka that anything you ever need to know about Guatemala you can ask me. I have lived here over 20 years and if I do not know the answer I will find someone who does. It is a beautiful country beseiged at this time by crime and violence, but its home. 

Good luck with finding what is best for you and yours, Mexico is certainly a gem in Latin America's crown of jewels.


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## Marishka

Longford said:


> I find very little of Coyoacan ... interesting, or, I should say ... interesting to me. There are one or more colonias with the name of Coyoacan as part of it, and also the delegacion. So if looking for housing or businesses which describe their location as Coyoacan ... carefully verify just what that means. The portion of Coyoacan which seems most attractive to expats is the relatively small historic center which sees hordes of tourists almost daily (and especially on weekends). Housing in the historic center can be expensive, by Mexico City standards. It's a nice place to visit, some nice small restaurants/markets, the gardens and a couple of museums. There would be worse places for someone to live than Coyoacan ... if the person could locate housing on one of the edges of the tourist route there. Public transport is good.


The people renting rooms and houses in Coyoacán are actually very specific in describing where their homes are in relation to the historic center and tourist attractions, and even include a map.

Could you point me to another area of Mexico City that you think would be a better fit for me than Coyoacán? Again, here is Alexander's description (minus the dreaded S word) that pretty much sums up what I'm looking for:


> the neighborhood is great... very clean, safe, and calm, with lots of restaurants to choose from… everything just steps away from vibrant bustling squares and plazas -- reminiscent of a European city. Although quiet and leafy, there are still tons of things to do here without ever leaving the "barrio": museums, galleries, restaurants, markets, theatre, dance, movies, music… and the metro stops are pretty close, too.


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## Anonimo

> Could you point me to another area of Mexico City that you think would be a better fit for me than Coyoacán?


Colonia Roma. CR Norte is more upmarket and has become quite trendy, but CR Sur should not be overlooked. We have friends who have lived in CRS for many years.

CRN has a European feel to much of it. It's certainly more accessible by public transportation than either Coyoacán and San Ángel. It's in a central location with easy access to Colonia Condesa, Centro and la Zona Rosa (not that the ZR holds much of interest to me.)


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## Longford

Anonimo said:


> CRN has a European feel to much of it. It's certainly more accessible by public transportation than either Coyoacán and San Ángel. It's in a central location with easy access to Colonia Condesa, Centro and la Zona Rosa (not that the ZR holds much of interest to me.)


I've been a big fan of Colonia Roma (both _Norte_ and _Sur_) for many years, and have often recommended it as a place for tourists to base themselves when visiting the D.F. (instead of the often touted, and tour-guide recommended _Centro Historico_). The "European feel" comes from the fact that much / most of Colonia Roma Norte was developed by the Brits and Americans _way back when_. Cassius Clay Lamm, for whom a well-known Colonia Roma cultural center is named for, was a principal real estate developer there and is buried in the American Cemetery in Colonia San Rafael, not too far away. In my mind, and without a doubt, Colonias Roma Norte and Condesa are far more interesting and enjoyable to wander than is the historic center of Coyoacan (which, however, makes for a wonderful day-trip experience).


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## Marishka

Guategringo said:


> I just want you to know that my wife and I have moved back to Antigua, Guatemala. Mexico was nice for the 8 months we were there, but I have yet to encounter a law firm as corrupt as the one my wife worked for. They enjoy over-billing their clients, many od whom are either indigenous and cannot read Spanish or are foreignors and cannot read or speak the language.
> 
> Just want you to know Marishka that anything you ever need to know about Guatemala you can ask me. I have lived here over 20 years and if I do not know the answer I will find someone who does. It is a beautiful country beseiged at this time by crime and violence, but its home.
> 
> Good luck with finding what is best for you and yours, Mexico is certainly a gem in Latin America's crown of jewels.


I'm so sorry Mexico didn't work out for your family, due to the business environment. Your post certainly points out an advantage to being a retiree in Mexico, and also shows another good reason why expats should endeavor to learn as much Spanish as possible.



Guategringo said:


> Just want you to know Marishka that anything you ever need to know about Guatemala you can ask me. I have lived here over 20 years and if I do not know the answer I will find someone who does. It is a beautiful country beseiged at this time by crime and violence, but its home.
> 
> Good luck with finding what is best for you and yours, Mexico is certainly a gem in Latin America's crown of jewels.


Thank you so much, Guategringo! I will definitely take you up on that offer. We're planning to explore Central Mexico during our first year of retirement, and Southern Mexico and Guatemala during our second year. The photos I've seen of Antigua and Lake Atitlán are breathtakingly beautiful. 



Anonimo said:


> Colonia Roma. CR Norte is more upmarket and has become quite trendy, but CR Sur should not be overlooked. We have friends who have lived in CRS for many years.
> 
> CRN has a European feel to much of it. It's certainly more accessible by public transportation than either Coyoacán and San Ángel. It's in a central location with easy access to Colonia Condesa, Centro and la Zona Rosa (not that the ZR holds much of interest to me.)


That sounds like a winner!



Longford said:


> I've been a big fan of Colonia Roma (both _Norte_ and _Sur_) for many years, and have often recommended it as a place for tourists to base themselves when visiting the D.F. (instead of the often touted, and tour-guide recommended _Centro Historico_). The "European feel" comes from the fact that much / most of Colonia Roma Norte was developed by the Brits and Americans _way back when_. Cassius Clay Lamm, for whom a well-known Colonia Roma cultural center is named for, was a principal real estate developer there and is buried in the American Cemetery in Colonia San Rafael, not too far away. In my mind, and without a doubt, Colonias Roma Norte and Condesa are far more interesting and enjoyable to wander than is the historic center of Coyoacan (which, however, makes for a wonderful day-trip experience).


I stayed in Centro Historico the last time I was in Mexico City, and we do want to base ourselves in a different location the next time. I'll definitely look into Colonias Roma and Condesa. Thanks, Anonimo and Longford, for your recommendations.


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## Anonimo

Many of the grand homes "_casonas_" and buildings of Colonia Roma were built during the Porfiriato, the reign of Presidente Porfirio Diaz. He was enamored with European culture, especially French. Here's a link to a photo album, "Little Corners of Colonia Roma Norte" (translation of the title in Spanish). Bye the way, all the photos were taken within a quadrant of about 6x4 blocks, representing a truly small segment of the Colonia.


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## Marishka

Anonimo said:


> Many of the grand homes "_casonas_" and buildings of Colonia Roma were built during the Porfiriato, the reign of Presidente Porfirio Diaz. He was enamored with European culture, especially French. Here's a link to a photo album, "Little Corners of Colonia Roma Norte" (translation of the title in Spanish). Bye the way, all the photos were taken within a quadrant of about 6x4 blocks, representing a truly small segment of the Colonia.


Thank you, Anonimo. What a beautiful colonia! 

Isla, is this close to where you live?


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## Isla Verde

Marishka said:


> Thank you, Anonimo. What a beautiful colonia!
> 
> Isla, is this close to where you live?


Yes, fairly close. Maybe a half-hour walk from my barrio, crossing Reforma and then the Zona Rosa. Roma Norte is right on the other side of the ZR.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Yes, fairly close. Maybe a half-hour walk from my barrio, crossing Reforma and then the Zona Rosa. Roma Norte in right on the other side of the ZR.


I don't like Zona Rosa anymore...
Colonia Roma is very nice, after Coyoacán of course


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't like Zona Rosa anymore...
> Colonia Roma is very nice, after Coyoacán of course


I haven't liked the Zona Rosa for a long time. I remember when McDonald's moved in sometime in the 1980s, and I thought, This is the beginning of the end. I sometimes go there to have brunch or lunch at El Péndulo. That way I combine two of my favorite pastimes, eating and reading books. And El Konditori still has good food, one of the few nice restaurants left in the area. Ironically, it's located just across from McDonald's!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I haven't liked the Zona Rosa for a long time. I remember when McDonald's moved in sometime in the 1980s, and I thought, This is the beginning of the end. I sometimes go there to have brunch or lunch at El Péndulo. That way I combine two of my favorite pastimes, eating and reading books. And El Konditori still has good food, one of the few nice restaurants left in the area. Ironically, it's located just across from McDonald's!


I agree
I find it crowded, dangerous and ugly


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree
> I find it crowded, dangerous and ugly


And noisy! All those awful clubs blasting music at decibel levels guaranteed to permanently harm your inner ears. But there is a nice mall and the Plaza del Angel, home to many antique shops. I´ve never found it to be dangerous, though I don't go there at night when most of the "action" takes place


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I haven't liked the Zona Rosa for a long time. I remember when McDonald's moved in sometime in the 1980s, and I thought, This is the beginning of the end. I sometimes go there to have brunch or lunch at El Péndulo. That way I combine two of my favorite pastimes, eating and reading books. And El Konditori still has good food, one of the few nice restaurants left in the area. Ironically, it's located just across from McDonald's!


1982 in Zona Rosa we bought tickets to see Imelda Miller and went to a 2 story nightclub for the supper show. It wasn´t cheap. They had a New York type venue with many acts and a fashion show, But, no Imelda Miller. The announcer keep saying she would be very soon.

We ate filet mignon and when near the end many started to complaint all of a sudden there were 1/2 big guys at the end of the rows of tables. The asked for a $20.00 US "service charge" or tip from each of us. I said no as we didn´t get the main act. They said then you will not be allowed to leave and were noticeable angry. I paid.


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## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> I agree
> I find it crowded, dangerous and ugly


The Zona Rosa began to change, from the upscale shopping and dining district it once was ... when Mexico hosted the 1968 Summer Olympic Games and the subway line was built, providing a station at the Zona Rosa ... "Insurgentes."

The neighborhood remains one of the most vibrant in the city with about a billion US$ invested in high-end hotels and condominium buildings in the past decade (both in the Zona Rosa and on it's edges). The city made it, Plaza Garibaldi and Xochimilco the focus of tourism development efforts during the last 6-year mayoral term. And it remains an important financial/commercial center with offices of many companies and professional service firms. 

The Zona Rosa probably has the largest number of small venues, bars/restaurants which offer live entertainment ... i.e., musical groups/bands. The sidewalk cafe's are busy and you can find just about any style and price of food you want. Swiss, Italian, Mexican, "American," you name it.

It's a bustling area with a lot of foot traffic and it's a magnet for a large number of international tourists. Many of the city's expat residents can be found in the various sidewalk cafe's and restaurants. The U.S. Embassy is across the street on one side of the border of the Zona Rosa.

In the 1990's the Zona Rosa was home to an overpowering number of 'table dance' clubs which operated in the evening. Some were very elegant and owned by senior officials in the government. For the most part, those clubs have closed. There are a few remaining, but nowhere the number there once were and the people peddling visits to those clubs who would accost you when you walked the sidewalks in the center of the Zona Rosa are substantially reduced from what I see.

Homosexuality is now more out in the open in the D.F. and the Zona Rosa is where the majority of the gay/lesbian nightlife and clubs is concentrated. Particularly on just one street in the Zona Rosa - Amberes. A huge number of young gay men and women clog Amberes between Hamburgo and Paseo de la Reforma - a long one-block stretch of the street - on weekends. Some people who want to see the Zona Rosa remain as it was in the early-1960s and earlier times resent these changes to the neighborhood and complain about the gays, the rock bands, the fast food outlets, etc. in the neighborhood ... but the city and its neighborhoods change as life anywhere else on the planet changes and evolves.

There's probably plenty of petty crimes in the Zona Rosa, even though the headquarters for the D.F. police is situated there. Lots of police walking about because of the headquarters. But as is found elsewhere in the city, the purse snatchers, the people who'll grab the mochila off your shoulder, etc., will be found when the crowds clog the streets. I doubt the incidents of crime are greater in the Zona Rosa than they are in, say, Centro Historico, but I don't have statistics to refer to.

Though I understand the Zona Rosa isn't a section of the city everyone will appreciate or enjoy, or want to visit or stay in one of the many hotels (including those adjacent) .... it and what's there illustrate the diversity in the city where all strata of business, commerce, entertainment and lifestyles co-mingle successfully.


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## GARYJ65

I stick to my story; I don´t like it at all
I find it dirty, ugly crowded, tacky, noisy and very dangerous; day and night time
I prefer the south of the city, or Polanco, or Roma, anything but Zona Rosa


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I stick to my story; I don´t like it at all
> I find it dirty, ugly crowded, tacky, noisy and very dangerous; day and night time
> I prefer the south of the city, or Polanco, or Roma, anything but Zona Rosa



Dangerous in the daytime, oh, please! When is the last time you were there in the daytime, or any time, Gary?


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## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> I stick to my story; I don´t like it at all
> I find it dirty, ugly crowded, tacky, noisy and very dangerous; day and night time
> I prefer the south of the city, or Polanco, or Roma, anything but Zona Rosa


We live in interesting times, made interesting also because few of us share the same lifestyles, travel and other preferences. 

I don't particularly like hanging-around Coyoacan, but we know, from comments of others, that many people do ... and they find it one of the more interesting places in the D.F. And I've never understood why people who've been to Mexico several times and who profess an interest in learning more about the country visit the same destination, over and over again. Mexico is so much more than Oaxaca, Tulum and Puerto Vallarta.

For years, in response to questions on Mexico travel forums, I would recommend Colonia Roma as a place to base oneself when visiting the D.F. - as opposed to staying in Centro Historico where the guidebooks seem(ed) to always recommend . My comments would oftentimes be met with sneers. But now we see more and more people staying in Roma and Condesa and posting positive reports, and they're gaining in preference even though the guidebooks still seem to be recommending the same neighborhoods they recommended 20 years ago. I recognize, though, that Centro Historico is the right place for many travelers. Just not all. 

One size shoe doesn't fit all. And it's good that we're all a bit different.

About Polanco: I'm supposing that if I had a good job in the D.F. and my employer was subsidizing my living costs ... I'd consider living there. It's a relatively expensive place to live, shop, eat, etc. Many of the beautiful homes have been converted from family residences to corporate offices and designer stores charging outrageous prices. But I've been in some nice apartments. Many expats live in Polanco.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Dangerous in the daytime, oh, please! When is the last time you were there in the daytime, or any time, Gary?


About...2-3 wks ago

There are drugs, giros ******, etc. It is worse at night by far, but at day time you can get robbed as well


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## AlanMexicali

GARYJ65 said:


> About...2-3 wks ago
> 
> There are drugs, giros ******, etc. It is worse at night by far, but at day time you can get robbed as well


There was a news article about 11 young people being kidnapped from a bar in Zona Rosa a few months ago during the daytime on a Sunday morning. Also isn´t that where Malcolm X´s grandson was beaten to death?


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> About...2-3 wks ago
> 
> There are drugs, giros ******, etc. It is worse at night by far, but at day time you can get robbed as well


I guess when I walk through the ZR from time to time, I manage to be oblivious to the drugs, giros ****** and so on. I've never been robbed or ever felt threatened there, and I do have "city smarts", having lived in large cities (including The Big Apple) for most of my life. Of course, if you're looking for the dark side of life, you can always find it, or think you've found it.


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## Longford

AlanMexicali said:


> Also isn´t that where Malcolm X´s grandson was beaten to death?


No. Malcolm X's grandson was killed in/at/near an _antro_ (table dance club) very close to Plaza Garibaldi, if my memory hasn't failed me.

As for the kidnappings, I believe there has been suggestions the taking of the teens or young people was connected to criminal activity of their families:



> Most of the victims, however, hail from Tepito, a neighborhood notorious for harboring illicit drug and piracy rings. The newspaper El Universal reported Friday that the fathers of two of the missing youths are serving sentences for running a Tepito extortion and drug-dealing gang. An official with the prosecutor's office would not confirm or deny the report when contacted Friday by The Times.


Source: A kidnapping mystery in Mexico City - Los Angeles Times


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## AlanMexicali

I spend a Saturday in Tepito at the miles long las tianguis once and thought most of the stuff was not worth anything but it was there being sold. It was quite a taxi ride from Monumento a la Revolucion, but interesting. I wondered if the city dump was located near there.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I guess when I walk through the ZR from time to time, I manage to be oblivious to the drugs, giros ****** and so on. I've never been robbed or ever felt threatened there, and I do have "city smarts", having lived in large cities (including The Big Apple) for most of my life. Of course, if you're looking for the dark side of life, you can always find it, or think you've found it.


I don´t do drugs, don´t even smoke
I don´t go to giros ******

When I have to pass by ZR , guys aproach offering tickets to visit those clubs, or ask if you want something.
Once I had to go with a friend of mine, we met some people, had lunch and afterwards we were followed by some guys obviously they wanted to rob us. Didn´t happen but those are the kind of things you don´t need in life.


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I don´t do drugs, don´t even smoke
> I don´t go to giros ******
> 
> When I have to pass by ZR , guys aproach offering tickets to visit those clubs, or ask if you want something.
> Once I had to go with a friend of mine, we met some people, had lunch and afterwards we were followed by some guys obviously they wanted to rob us. Didn´t happen but those are the kind of things you don´t need in life.


I guess being a silver-haired woman in her sixties keeps guys like that from approaching me with offers of clubs and drugs. There are advantages to getting older. I've never been followed by potential robbers either. Sorry that happened to you, but I assure you it's not something that happens all the time.


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## JoanneR2

GARYJ65 said:


> Of course it is!
> But then again, in Mexico CIty, what is not far?
> On the other hand...it it close to Coyoacán and San Angel!


And it is on the metro bus line so transport is easy and cheap, if crowded in the rush hour.


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## JoanneR2

Marishka said:


> The people renting rooms and houses in Coyoacán are actually very specific in describing where their homes are in relation to the historic center and tourist attractions, and even include a map.
> 
> Could you point me to another area of Mexico City that you think would be a better fit for me than Coyoacán? Again, here is Alexander's description (minus the dreaded S word) that pretty much sums up what I'm looking for:


Condesa is lovely too and more central. Depending on where you are the prices for accommodation vary. There are great bars and restaurants with a local market every Friday and plenty of local small specialist shops. You can walk the area safely and easily which cuts down on the need for a car too. It is my favorite area in the city. But then it would be I live there.


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## Marishka

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't like Zona Rosa anymore...
> Colonia Roma is very nice, after Coyoacán of course


Gary, I'm still a member of the Coyoacán fan club because I just plain like what I've learned about it so far. Yes, descriptions of places are often puffed, but consider these facts that I pulled from my original post:

• The Project for Public Spaces ranked the neighborhood as one of the best urban spaces to live in North America in 2005 and is the only Mexican neighborhood on the list.

• Coyoacán was ranked third best place to live in the country in 2004 by the United Nations Development Programme, behind Benito Juarez and San Pedro Garza García in Nuevo León. The ranking is based on income levels, health and education. Coyoacán was ranked sixth in education, fourth in income and fifth in health. In quality of life, which takes into account factors such as crime statistics, Coyoacán ranked second behind Benito Juarez in Mexico City. This ranks the quality of life as equivalent to that in developed countries. 

• In 2004, Coyoacán was ranked the fifth most livable neighborhood in North America, ahead of Rittenhouse, Philadelphia and behind Camden, Maine. 

• With a population of 617,357, Coyoacán had 19 murders last year, a rate of only 3.08 per 100,000.

• Coyoacán generates only 7.2% of all crime reports in Mexico City. 

They've got to be doing _something_ right in Coyoacán! Even if I don't choose to stay there on my next trip to Mexico City, I do think it seems like a great place to live. And just from reading about the people who have listed rooms, houses and apartments on airbnb, I gather that there are some very creative people living there. 

A few days ago, someone complained about his thread going off-topic. I think this thread is a great example of how interesting a conversation can get when it does go somewhat off-topic. I'm loving reading your discussion about the different colonias, so feel free to wander as far as you like from the original topic of all things Coyoacán.

Btw, what do you all think the best guidebook for Mexico City is? I need all the help I can get.


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## GARYJ65

Wow
You really did some homework here!

You will become an honorary Coyoacanense!


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## Marishka

GARYJ65 said:


> Wow
> You really did some homework here!
> 
> You will become an honorary Coyoacanense!


Wouldn't that be nice! Will they give me a _llave_ to the city?


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## Isla Verde

Yesterday a friend and I spent the afternoon in the historic center of Coyoacán and had a marvelous time. The sun was shining, children were playing in the gardens of the main plaza, and colorful pinwheels were spinning happily to the pleasant breezes. I had coffee and a croissant at one restaurant and lunch at a cantina. For dessert we had trouble choosing where to buy ice cream, since there are so local ice cream parlors to choose from: in the end we had nieve de sandía, which tasted just like watermelon, only better! The only sour note of the day was the long time it took me to get from the nearest Metro station (Viveros) to the Jardín Hidalgo. Walking briskly I got there in 35 minutes. I tried to take a taxi, but very few were out and about, and none would pick me up. So if you ever go to Coyoacán from the center of the D.F., it's best to drive or take a cab.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> Yesterday a friend and I spent the afternoon in the historic center of Coyoacán and had a marvelous time. The sun was shining, children were playing in the gardens of the main plaza, and colorful pinwheels were spinning happily to the pleasant breezes. I had coffee and a croissant at one restaurant and lunch at a cantina. For dessert we had trouble choosing where to buy ice cream, since there are so local ice cream parlors to choose from: in the end we had nieve de sandía, which tasted just like watermelon, only better! The only sour note of the day was the long time it took me to get from the nearest Metro station (Viveros) to the Jardín Hidalgo. Walking briskly I got there in 35 minutes. I tried to take a taxi, but very few were out and about, and none would pick me up. So if you ever go to Coyoacán from the center of the D.F., it's best to drive or take a cab.


Isla, thank you for that beautiful description of your day in Coyoacán. You are truly living my dream life! 

Even the brisk 35 minute walk to the Metro station sounds good to me, because walking is one of my favorite forms of exercise. Walking is not only a free form of transportation, but is also an incredibly healthy one. A study by the University of Utah showed that the average person in a walkable neighborhood weighs 6-10 pounds less than someone in an unwalkable neighborhood.

I downloaded a copy of _Lonely Planet Mexico_ to my Kindle. The following is that book's description of Coyoacán:

"Coyoacán retains its restful identity, with narrow colonial-era streets, cafes and a lively atmosphere. Once home to Leon Trotsky and Frida Kaho (whose houses are now fascinating museums), it has a decidedly countercultural vibe, most evident on weekends, when assorted musicians, mimes and crafts markets draw large but relaxed crowds to Coyoacán's central plazas."

I just finished reading the entire chapter on Mexico City, and I don't think anyone could read about all that city offers and not want to go there!


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## Isla Verde

Marishka;1406786
I downloaded a copy of [I said:


> Lonely Planet Mexico[/I] to my Kindle. The following is that book's description of Coyoacán:
> 
> "Coyoacán retains its restful identity, with narrow colonial-era streets, cafes and a lively atmosphere. Once home to Leon Trotsky and Frida Kaho (whose houses are now fascinating museums), it has a decidedly countercultural vibe, most evident on weekends, when assorted musicians, mimes and crafts markets draw large but relaxed crowds to Coyoacán's central plazas."


I avoid Coyoacán on the weekends because it gets unpleasantly crowded then. The crowds are indeed large and overwhelm the main plaza turning it into a circus, and not a relaxed one.


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## Isla Verde

Marishka said:


> Even the brisk 35 minute walk to the Metro station sounds good to me, because walking is one of my favorite forms of exercise. Walking is not only a free form of transportation, but is also an incredibly healthy one.


I mentioned the long walk from the subway because to me a 35-minute walk (not a stroll) is not most people's idea of a neighborhood's being close to the subway. And there are no local buses that directly connect the center of Coyoacán with the nearest subway station.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I mentioned the long walk from the subway because to me a 35-minute walk (not a stroll) is not most people's idea of a neighborhood's being close to the subway. And there are no local buses that directly connect the center of Coyoacán with the nearest subway station.


Is it really 35 minutes from the center of Coyoacán? Did you walk to the Viveros subway stop? What are you calling the "center"? From Jardines Centenario to Viveros is only about 1 km.

I was only in Coyoacán once. I stayed in a very nice hostel on Berlin Street. For awhile it looked like I might get a job at UNAM (Universidad Autonoma de Mexico) and Coyoacán would have been a short commute. It seemed like a very nice place, but if I were to live in Mexico city, I think I would rather be closer to the Zocalo and the center.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Is it really 35 minutes from the center of Coyoacán? Did you walk to the Viveros subway stop? What are you calling the "center"? From Jardines Centenario to Viveros is only about 1 km.
> 
> I was only in Coyoacán once. I stayed in a very nice hostel on Berlin Street. For awhile it looked like I might get a job at UNAM (Universidad Autonoma de Mexico) and Coyoacán would have been a short commute. It seemed like a very nice place, but if I were to live in Mexico city, I think I would rather be closer to the Zocalo and the center.


Well, it may be only a kilometer, but when you're walking on bumpy, broken "picturesque" sidewalks, it does take 35 minutes, _más o menos_, to walk from the Viveros Metro station to the historic center of Coyoacán, the Jardín Centenario/Jardín Hildalgo. I mentioned this to a friend of mine who is much younger than me and in much better shape. He said it takes him about that long too.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Well, it may be only a kilometer, but when you're walking on bumpy, broken "picturesque" sidewalks, it does take 35 minutes, _más o menos_, to walk from the Viveros Metro station to the historic center of Coyoacán, the Jardín Centenario/Jardín Hildalgo. I mentioned this to a friend of mine who is much younger than me and in much better shape. He said it takes him about that long too.


I wasn't impugning your walking ability or trying to turn it into a contest. I was just surprised. I remember it being a ways as well.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I wasn't impugning your walking ability or trying to turn it into a contest. I was just surprised. I remember it being a ways as well.


I know that, TG . I wonder if that kilometer you mentioned is as the crow flies, perhaps cutting across the large area Viveros covers, which you have to walk around to get to the central plazas.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I know that, TG . I wonder if that kilometer you mentioned is as the crow flies, perhaps cutting across the large area Viveros covers, which you have to walk around to get to the central plazas.


I didn't measure it, just looked at the scale on google maps. Viveros would be a nice park to live near. I noticed a lot of people walking and running around the perimeter track inside it when I was there. But the only gates seem to be on the Coyoacán side so there is no way to cut across it when going to the Viveros subway station on the other side.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I didn't measure it, just looked at the scale on google maps. Viveros would be a nice park to live near. I noticed a lot of people walking and running around the perimeter track inside it when I was there. But the only gates seem to be on the Coyoacán side so there is no way to cut across it when going to the Viveros subway station on the other side.


Viveros is a lovely place and is very popular with local walkers and runners and even those who just want to spend some time among trees and greenery.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> I mentioned the long walk from the subway because to me a 35-minute walk (not a stroll) is not most people's idea of a neighborhood's being close to the subway. And there are no local buses that directly connect the center of Coyoacán with the nearest subway station.


Most often, I walk from the Coyoacan Metro station, not from Viveros. But when I don't want to walk from Coyoacan station I take one of the microbuses near the Metro station which takes me to very close to Iglesia San Juan Bautista and Plaza Hidalgo.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> Most often, I walk from the Coyoacan Metro station, not from Viveros. But when I don't want to walk from Coyoacan station I take one of the microbuses near the Metro station which takes me to very close to Iglesia San Juan Bautista and Plaza Hidalgo.


The Coyoacán Metro station is even further away from the Jardín Hidalgo than the Viveros station. That's quite a hike!


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## AlanMexicali

AlanMexicali said:


> There was a news article about 11 young people being kidnapped from a bar in Zona Rosa a few months ago during the daytime on a Sunday morning. Also isn´t that where Malcolm X´s grandson was beaten to death?


The news today said they found the bodies of the 12 young people in a grave and also said it happened from a dispute about selling drugs in Zona Rosa.


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## GARYJ65

AlanMexicali said:


> The news today said they found the bodies of the 12 young people in a grave and also said it happened from a dispute about selling drugs in Zona Rosa.


I rest my case


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I rest my case


Gary, I forget what your "case" was  .


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## citlali

So drugs are being sold in the zona Rosa. Is anyone surprised or is there any barrio were drugs are not sold?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Gary, I forget what your "case" was  .


 My argument was that Zona Rosa is dangerous


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> My argument was that Zona Rosa is dangerous


I wonder why I've never had any problems there. Why just today I walked through it on my way to the subway and no one tried to sell me drugs or steal my purse or anything like that. What am I doing wrong?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder why I've never had any problems there. Why just today I walked through it on my way to the subway and no one tried to sell me drugs or steal my purse or anything like that. What am I doing wrong?


Whatever you are doing, keep doing it!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Whatever you are doing, keep doing it!


I'm not doing anything special. I just go about my business and don't bother anyone, and they don't bother me. Of course, maybe the drug dealers don't think that a woman in her sixties would be interested in buying some of their product, so maybe my age and general appearance helps to keep me out of harm's way.


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## citlali

I would think any place is dangerous if you are a drug dealer.There does not seem to be a whole lot of old drug dealers.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> I would think any place is dangerous if you are a drug dealer.There does not seem to be a whole lot of old drug dealers.


Interesting observation!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Interesting observation!


 as if we really knew about the drug dealers location, age profile and who they are!


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## citlali

How many old heads did they find out of the 12 they found? I think you can get a clue by the age of the guys who die. Most of them are younger and male , although females can be part of it too,
In our area the boss was arrested and he looked in his late 40ps but most of his guys are from teengers to mid 30's.
You are lucky if you do not know drug dealers, in villages everyone knows everyone and most people are related so you end up with them at weddings, funerals and other fun events.


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## Justina

But then you are not a teeny bopper out with your mates. The problem with drugs is that if you are looking for a little hashish then there could be follow ups to it, whereas if you could pop along to your local chemist then he could provide you with your hash of choice and cut out the middleman.


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## Justina

I reckon it was obvious after a couple of days that they were dead. Especially, whentwo of the kidnapped were related to people in el reclusorio norte.


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