# New British Consul in Hurghada



## Helen Ellis

The British Embassy is pleased to announce that we have recently appointed Mr. John Kenny as the newHonorary Consul for Hurghada. Mr Kenny has been living permanently in Hurghada since 2008.
He will be on hand to help to offer general consular services to the British community in Hurghada. Should you have any enquiries or in an emergency situation (serious illness, accident, deaths) please contact Mr. Kenny on mobile: +20 1515343915 or by email:[email protected]

I understand there will be a chance to meet him at an informal coffee morning sometime soon.


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## hurghadapat

Helen Ellis said:


> The British Embassy is pleased to announce that we have recently appointed Mr. John Kenny as the newHonorary Consul for Hurghada. Mr Kenny has been living permanently in Hurghada since 2008.
> He will be on hand to help to offer general consular services to the British community in Hurghada. Should you have any enquiries or in an emergency situation (serious illness, accident, deaths) please contact Mr. Kenny on mobile: +20 1515343915 or by email:[email protected]
> 
> I understand there will be a chance to meet him at an informal coffee morning sometime soon.


IMHO....these people are a complete waste of time and do nothing more than enjoy the title and the status that it gives them.


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## Eco-Mariner

Not this time my friend.

Mr. John Kenny is walking into a nightmare scenario with property investors screaming for justice in Hurghada right now. I personally will be pushing for his attention.

He won't have time to sunbathe and drink Martini's.


Eco-Mariner.


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## hurghadapat

Eco-Mariner said:


> Not this time my friend.
> 
> Mr. John Kenny is walking into a nightmare scenario with property investors screaming for justice in Hurghada right now. I personally will be pushing for his attention.
> 
> He won't have time to sunbathe and drink Martini's.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


So what exactly are you expecting them to do.....i take it that you went into the property market of your own free will.....


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## bart

hurghadapat said:


> IMHO....these people are a complete waste of time and do nothing more than enjoy the title and the status that it gives them.


i agree that has happened in the past, but i have 2 good friends who were recently helped by mr kenny and neither of them can praise him high enough. he was the most helpful person they had met in their 5 years of living here. so you have to speak as you find.
the old adage 'don't knock it until you've tried it' applies here!


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## bart

hurghadapat said:


> So what exactly are you expecting them to do.....i take it that you went into the property market of your own free will.....


i am sorry to say that i dont think mr kenny should be wasting his time sorting out dodgy deals that expats have got themselves into!! he should be used for emergency situations only. a good friend of mine recently had to ask for his help in getting immediate flight out of egypt because of family problems and he arranged for it to happen on that very day.
i can sympathise with investors here as i, myself, am one but i do feel that we should have realised that egypt does not come under the protection of uk or europe and therefore the risk should be entirely ours and not expect our respective governments or consulars to sort it out for us


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## rifleman

And you are right bart, he is there to provide the very limited consular services set out clearly on the FCO website and not to intervene in civil/commercial disputes. See http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what-we-do/services-we-deliver/consular/

People sometimes expect far too much from government.


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## Eco-Mariner

With the greatest of respect, the massive reaction to real-estate fraud happening right now in Egypt's tourism sector has a direct relationship and knock-on effect on Brits and Europeans. Not least to Egypt's economy as a whole.

Mr. Kenny cannot ignore the plight of tens of thousands caught up in this multi-million dollar scandal. A debacle to which genuine UK companies and a myriad of legal prosecutors are trying to clean up. 

If he does ignore the plight of these investors, he is not fit for purpose.

Eco-Mariner.


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> With the greatest of respect, the massive reaction to real-estate fraud happening right now in Egypt's tourism sector has a direct relationship and knock-on effect on Brits and Europeans. Not least to Egypt's economy as a whole.
> 
> Mr. Kenny cannot ignore the plight of tens of thousands caught up in this multi-million dollar scandal. A debacle to which genuine UK companies and a myriad of legal prosecutors are trying to clean up.
> 
> If he does ignore the plight of these investors, he is not fit for purpose.
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


He is employed at tax payers expense to provide the consular services set out on the FCO website. I provided a link to what those services are. It does not include sorting out investors legal problems.

If there is anything to be done by the British government about your problem it is for the FCO to decide what and by whom.

If I heard that a consul was being paid out of my taxes to sort out Expats civil/commercial issues I would write to my MP to complain. I don't expect my taxes to be used for that.....anymore than I imagine you want to pay my legal expenses when I have a civil/commercial dispute.


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## MaidenScotland

Eco-Mariner said:


> With the greatest of respect, the massive reaction to real-estate fraud happening right now in Egypt's tourism sector has a direct relationship and knock-on effect on Brits and Europeans. Not least to Egypt's economy as a whole.
> 
> Mr. Kenny cannot ignore the plight of tens of thousands caught up in this multi-million dollar scandal. A debacle to which genuine UK companies and a myriad of legal prosecutors are trying to clean up.
> 
> If he does ignore the plight of these investors, he is not fit for purpose.
> 
> Eco-Mariner.




Where does it stop? Lots of people in Spain have lost their houses when they discovered that the house was not legal and that is a Spanish problem not a British one, same as for here, it's an Egyptian problem.


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## marenostrum

Eco-Mariner said:


> Not this time my friend.
> 
> Mr. John Kenny is walking into a nightmare scenario with property investors screaming for justice in Hurghada right now. I personally will be pushing for his attention.
> 
> He won't have time to sunbathe and drink Martini's.
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


I wish you luck mate but these people have the ability to dodge the important issues they should be looking to solve. They are civil servants after all....

I'd be interested to know what package this new diplomat is on.
How big is the villa?


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## bart

rifleman said:


> And you are right bart, he is there to provide the very limited consular services set out clearly on the FCO website and not to intervene in civil/commercial disputes. See Consular services
> 
> People sometimes expect far too much from government.


these people expect too much as that is the way they have been programmed - compensation culture - when will they ever learn to take the consequences for their own decisions?


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## Peter Mitry

Property investors in Egypt must understand that, like in any emerging market, there will be good and bad Developers and none of the safeguards such as bank guarantees which are available in Europe.

No one likes to hear of people losing their hard earned cash, or in many cases their life savings, but it's important to take great care before making any investment decisions. Most of the high profile problem Developers in Hurghada were promoted by UK companies who simply took clients money and disappeared.

There is no substitute from taking advice from a good local agent and using a reputable lawyer during the purchase process. Even this is not foolproof, as things can change during the construction period, putting unforeseen pressures on Developers; but with good advice, a decent lawyer and some common sense the risk of failure can be substantially reduced.

I wish the new British Consul in Hurghada the best of luck as there is always a need for local advice on consular issues; however, if he gets bogged down with complaints from property investors he will not be able to concentrate on the issues he has been employed to address.


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## Eco-Mariner

Hi Peter.

And why shouldn't he get bogged down with these Brit's residency problems? He gets paid well enough. These are Egyptian made issues and now that he is working in Egypt he will face exactly the troubles owners and British residents face daily with residency permits for what turns out to be double and triple-sold properties that they thought they had genuinely bought.

Mr. Kenny and the British Ambassador will need more than luck now that all the real issues are getting exposed in the High Courts and criminal courts around Egypt cities.

Please, we do not need to make excuses for others not doing their job correctly.

Regards.

Eco-Mariner


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## Lanason

Peter Mitry said:


> Property investors in Egypt must understand that, like in any emerging market, there will be good and bad Developers and none of the safeguards such as bank guarantees which are available in Europe.
> 
> No one likes to hear of people losing their hard earned cash, or in many cases their life savings, but it's important to take great care before making any investment decisions. Most of the high profile problem Developers in Hurghada were promoted by UK companies who simply took clients money and disappeared.
> 
> There is no substitute from taking advice from a good local agent and using a reputable lawyer during the purchase process. Even this is not foolproof, as things can change during the construction period, putting unforeseen pressures on Developers; but with good advice, a decent lawyer and some common sense the risk of failure can be substantially reduced.
> 
> I wish the new British Consul in Hurghada the best of luck as there is always a need for local advice on consular issues; however, if he gets bogged down with complaints from property investors he will not be able to concentrate on the issues he has been employed to address.


Your comments about "good" advice, "trusted" are all very well but how does the investor know who is "good" who is "trusted". 
The chain has to start with someone the investor trusts - all very well, but out here who's opinion is trust worthy ? Yours ? Mine?


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> Hi Peter.
> 
> And why shouldn't he get bogged down with these Brit's residency problems? He gets paid well enough. These are Egyptian made issues and now that he is working in Egypt he will face exactly the troubles owners and British residents face daily with residency permits for what turns out to be double and triple-sold properties that they thought they had genuinely bought.
> 
> Mr. Kenny and the British Ambassador will need more than luck now that all the real issues are getting exposed in the High Courts and criminal courts around Egypt cities.
> 
> Please, we do not need to make excuses for others not doing their job correctly.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Eco-Mariner


He gets paid to provide consular services by British taxpayers. None of those taxpayers are entitled to free legal advice or representation if they have the sort of problems you have, so why on earth do you think they should be paying for you to have it?


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## Peter Mitry

Lanason said:


> Your comments about "good" advice, "trusted" are all very well but how does the investor know who is "good" who is "trusted".
> The chain has to start with someone the investor trusts - all very well, but out here who's opinion is trust worthy ? Yours ? Mine?


There is plenty of information available on forums or by googling those you wish to consult. Or even just asking others who have had a good experience.


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## marenostrum

rifleman said:


> None of those taxpayers are entitled to free legal advice or representation if they have the sort of problems you have, so why on earth do you think they should be paying for you to have it?


its funny how the same civil servants provide plenty of "free legal aid and representation" in their home countries to people who are not british and who have never paid in the system ie. mansions in westminster for abdi and his 70 kids + plasma screen etc etc. Even the guardianista report on this.

I think people like mariner should get all the support they need from these diplomats, at the end of the day if you put in the system you should be able to draw out of it when needed and I would guess an expat has paid money into his home kitty at some point in his life.


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## rifleman

Nobody in Britain gets legal aid for this type of dispute. I have spent years doing expert witness work in property disputes in Britain and both I and the lawyers had to be paid by the parties involved. Explain to me why those people who have to pay to sort their own problems in Britain should then pay to solve the same problems for an expat?


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## Lanason

Peter Mitry said:


> There is plenty of information available on forums or by googling those you wish to consult. Or even just asking others who have had a good experience.


mmm not sure I agree
forums are fine but opinions vary and people disagree
how does someone find a person who has good experience?

all takes time and IMHO has to be done with hours of research and time spent on the ground.

if you live in UK and aim to buy over here the research will be way difficult - fiding that one person who you trust and is really a good 'en is not easy.


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## flossy207

Oh please Peter, you know better than most, that when future owners try and google a certain developer's name, any forum that shows negative feedback against this developer are either removed or closed down, threatening legal action etc that disgruntled owners have left! so please don't say to google them. How can future owners know the truth about disreputable developers?


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## Peter Mitry

Lanason said:


> mmm not sure I agree
> forums are fine but opinions vary and people disagree
> how does someone find a person who has good experience?
> 
> all takes time and IMHO has to be done with hours of research and time spent on the ground.
> 
> if you live in UK and aim to buy over here the research will be way difficult - fiding that one person who you trust and is really a good 'en is not easy.


I absolutely agree with you Lanason but if you are investing thousands of pounds it surely must be worth spending the time; the information is there if you look for it. There is no substitute for intensive research, unless you are fortunate enough to know personally someone who has invested wisely.

And to Flossy, you too are right but when this happens it usually means the Developer has something to hide and you can draw your own conclusions from this.

Does anyone else have any suggestions? This is a big issue for many people.


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## rifleman

Peter Mitry said:


> I absolutely agree with you Lanason but if you are investing thousands of pounds it surely must be worth spending the time; the information is there if you look for it. There is no substitute for intensive research, unless you are fortunate enough to know personally someone who has invested wisely.
> 
> And to Flossy, you too are right but when this happens it usually means the Developer has something to hide and you can draw your own conclusions from this.
> 
> Does anyone else have any suggestions? This is a big issue for many people.


I have the same suggestion as for any deal you do. If you cannot afford to lose the money and you cannot obtain adequate insurance (directly or indirectly) don't do the deal.
I do know that there are professional firms regulated by British regulators who operate in Egypt. Chartered Surveyors for example.
But I also know that many people are not prepared to pay for advice or who ignore it after they get it.


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## Peter Mitry

rifleman said:


> I have the same suggestion as for any deal you do. If you cannot afford to lose the money and you cannot obtain adequate insurance (directly or indirectly) don't do the deal.
> I do know that there are professional firms regulated by British regulators who operate in Egypt. Chartered Surveyors for example.
> But I also know that many people are not prepared to pay for advice or who ignore it after they get it.


There are also Egyptian lawyers who are approved by the British Embassy and also International lawyers with offices in Egypt.

Of course, they tend to be a bit more expensive but isn't it worth it for the peace of mind you get from the knowledge that you have done all you can to minimize risk?

Investing is always a risky business and the greater the potential return, then the the greater the risk.

In Egypt the land registry system is in it's infancy and very few properties are available with the ability to apply for full registration immediately. These properties are always existing or finished properties and potential buyers should ask if they can get a 'green contract' on completion.

However, this is for those people who are planning to live here or to hold their property for some time; a green contract comes with a restriction that you cannot sell for five years following registration, so is unlikely to be an attractive option for investors.

The more normal form of registration is known as 'signature validity' or 'court validity suite'; this is merely a notarised copy of your purchase contract which validates the signature on the contract is the authorised seller of the property. 

It confirms the number, plans and location of a property and is signed by the local Notary public; this prevents double selling by vendors.

Rogue Developers will not mention this facility which leaves them open to sell a property over and over again.


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## bart

marenostrum said:


> its funny how the same civil servants provide plenty of "free legal aid and representation" in their home countries to people who are not british and who have never paid in the system ie. mansions in westminster for abdi and his 70 kids + plasma screen etc etc. Even the guardianista report on this.
> 
> I think people like mariner should get all the support they need from these diplomats, at the end of the day if you put in the system you should be able to draw out of it when needed and I would guess an expat has paid money into his home kitty at some point in his life.


this is because the law relates to what happens on british soil and sometimes the european law will cover issues, but these people have chosen to move outside the protection of this country and we all must abide by the laws of this country. the british government has no authority to interfere in egypt. 
it is unfortunate that there appears to be no law in egypt that protects prospective buyers, i agree, but surely no-one is naive enough to part with their hard-earned cash before thoroughly investigating. perhaps i have been lucky in my purchase which i put entirely in the hands of an honest egyptian, but had he tricked me, i would have had to have put it down to my naivity and i certainly would not have expected the embassy or its representative to sort it out for me.
as i said before, europeans, and especially the british have been mammy pammied for too long and now expect all their mistakes to be rectified by someone else. it's time they took their own responsibilities.


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## marenostrum

bart said:


> this is because the law relates to what happens on british soil and sometimes the european law will cover issues, but these people have chosen to move outside the protection of this country and we all must abide by the laws of this country. the british government has no authority to interfere in egypt.
> it is unfortunate that there appears to be no law in egypt that protects prospective buyers, i agree, but surely no-one is naive enough to part with their hard-earned cash before thoroughly investigating. perhaps i have been lucky in my purchase which i put entirely in the hands of an honest egyptian, but had he tricked me, i would have had to have put it down to my naivity and i certainly would not have expected the embassy or its representative to sort it out for me.
> as i said before, europeans, and especially the british have been mammy pammied for too long and now expect all their mistakes to be rectified by someone else. it's time they took their own responsibilities.


I appreciate what you are saying but we don't know Ecomariner's circumstances and I don't think we can conclude that he has been naive.

My point is that these diplomats are paid from the taxpayer's money in their home country and hence imho they should provide a service to the taxpayer resident in the overseas country. Unfortunately these diplomats are mostly engaged in business meetings / high level transactions here trying to get deals between their own government and the hosts instead of helping citizens living abroad. I don't have to remind you about the evacuation fiasco here in Cairo last winter.....

My view is probably naive but I still think that people paid by the taxpayer (which civil servants serving overseas are) should protect said taxpayer.

Also I am not sure that there is no legal aid recourse in the UK for cases such as property ripoffs. On a no win no fee basis you can get a firm to fight your case but here in Egypt there is no such thing so I feel that consular staff should go the extra mile to help their own citizens. Also I would not link Ecomariner's case to that of someone who " has been mammy pammied for too long and now expect all mistakes to be rectified by someone else. "
I for one hate compensation culture but I think that in the case of egyptian property buyers more help should be given to the people scammed as there is no adequate legal system to independently sort these issue out which you have in the UK.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> I appreciate what you are saying but we don't know Ecomariner's circumstances and I don't think we can conclude that he has been naive.
> 
> My point is that these diplomats are paid from the taxpayer's money in their home country and hence imho they should provide a service to the taxpayer resident in the overseas country. Unfortunately these diplomats are mostly engaged in business meetings / high level transactions here trying to get deals between their own government and the hosts instead of helping citizens living abroad. I don't have to remind you about the evacuation fiasco here in Cairo last winter.....
> 
> My view is probably naive but I still think that people paid by the taxpayer (which civil servants serving overseas are) should protect said taxpayer.
> 
> Also I am not sure that there is no legal aid recourse in the UK for cases such as property ripoffs. On a no win no fee basis you can get a firm to fight your case but here in Egypt there is no such thing so I feel that consular staff should go the extra mile to help their own citizens. Also I would not link Ecomariner's case to that of someone who " has been mammy pammied for too long and now expect all mistakes to be rectified by someone else. "
> I for one hate compensation culture but I think that in the case of egyptian property buyers more help should be given to the people scammed as there is no adequate legal system to independently sort these issue out which you have in the UK.




And who is going to provide the compensation?
If the British taxpayer is to provide then I would be against this as you are opening a can of worms, what about the Spanish houses that were demolished are we to pay for those too?. 
If it is a holiday home does that merit the same bail out as a home property?

If you buy in Egypt/Spain/ Thailand or anywhere else then your properties are subject to the rules of that country after all you have not bought a property in the grounds of the embassy.


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> And who is going to provide the compensation?
> If the British taxpayer is to provide then I would be against this as you are opening a can of worms, what about the Spanish houses that were demolished are we to pay for those too?.
> If it is a holiday home does that merit the same bail out as a home property?
> 
> If you buy in Egypt/Spain/ Thailand or anywhere else then your properties are subject to the rules of that country after all you have not bought a property in the grounds of the embassy.



Many people have sold their home in Europe and bought property abroad to live in it so no holiday home.

By compensation I meant legal aid to fight your case in court. If we provide legal aid to terrorists and child murderers back home I don't see why someone like ecom should not be entitled to some help.


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> Many people have sold their home in Europe and bought property abroad to live in it so no holiday home.
> 
> By compensation I meant legal aid to fight your case in court. If we provide legal aid to terrorists and child murderers back home I don't see why someone like ecom should not be entitled to some help.




quite simple they are not back home, they cannot have British law fighting Egyptian law and that is what British legal aid would mean, and as I asked would that mean anyone who has a legal problem with property anywhere in the world be able to then ask for legal aid to fight it.


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## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> quite simple they are not back home, they cannot have British law fighting Egyptian law and that is what British legal aid would mean, and as I asked would that mean anyone who has a legal problem with property anywhere in the world be able to then ask for legal aid to fight it.


Heck, they'd be bankrupt in minutes with all the demolition and illegal builds that Brits have bought and lost in Spain - not just holiday homes either!

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> Heck, they'd be bankrupt in minutes with all the demolition and illegal builds that Brits have bought and lost in Spain - not just holiday homes either!
> 
> Jo xxx




Exactly and what about the people who go outside Europe for holidays with no insurance.. we don't pay for air ambulances etc back if they need them and medical bills can cost more than a house in some countries


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## marenostrum

jojo said:


> Heck, they'd be bankrupt in minutes with all the demolition and illegal builds that Brits have bought and lost in Spain - not just holiday homes either!
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo if they have been victims of a crime ie fraud they should be helped.

This is not the same as not taking medical insurance when going on hoilday, that is negligent behaviour and no one would advocate paying for repatration.


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## jojo

marenostrum said:


> Jo if they have been victims of a crime ie fraud they should be helped.
> 
> This is not the same as not taking medical insurance when going on hoilday, that is negligent behaviour and no one would advocate paying for repatration.


If people choose to leave their country and risk their own money without the safeguards/laws/regulations of their own country, then there comes a point where they are "on their own"

TBH, in this day and age, even if you do something in the UK and you require legal aid, its not easy to get (its means tested) and in the main it has to be paid back

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> Jo if they have been victims of a crime ie fraud they should be helped.
> 
> This is not the same as not taking medical insurance when going on hoilday, that is negligent behaviour and no one would advocate paying for repatration.




Firstly you have to prove a crime has been committed.


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## marenostrum

jojo said:


> If people choose to leave their country and risk their own money without the safeguards/laws/regulations of their own country, then there comes a point where they are "on their own"
> 
> TBH, in this day and age, even if you do something in the UK and you require legal aid, its not easy to get (its means tested) and in the main it has to be paid back
> 
> Jo xxx


not many things are means tested, ie. car crash cases etc etc

Also it is only means tested if you declare your income correctly...plenty of people on the fiddle with 60k savings in the bank....again my point, we help the dishonest people without looking after the good ones....


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## jojo

marenostrum said:


> not many things are means tested, ie. car crash cases etc etc
> 
> Also it is only means tested if you declare your income correctly...plenty of people on the fiddle with 60k savings in the bank....again my point, we help the dishonest people without looking after the good ones....


Its all means tested, it isnt easy to get and in most cases it has to be paid back.

Have a look at this calculator, it may give you an idea as to how complicated the assessment for eligibility is Eligibility Calculator

jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

marenostrum said:


> not many things are means tested, ie. car crash cases etc etc
> 
> Also it is only means tested if you declare your income correctly...plenty of people on the fiddle with 60k savings in the bank....again my point, we help the dishonest people without looking after the good ones....


And how do we know who the goods ones are?


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## jojo

The point is that legal aid in the UK has to be kept in the UK because the solicitors who join the legal aid scheme (a voluntary scheme I believe) only know UK law, so wouldnt be much use in another country. And you cant fiddle the outcome, cos they check and double check. If you're found to be lying, you're likely to be done for fraud!

Jo xxx


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## jojo

...... and lets not forget that a UK solicitor is going to need a very trustworthy and fluent translator for every single comment or letter. Is a UK solicitor going to be prepared and able to go to a court in another country and fight a battle with the aforementioned translator?? all costs met by legal aid...... I think not!

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> ...... and lets not forget that a UK solicitor is going to need a very trustworthy and fluent translator for every single comment or letter. Is a UK solicitor going to be prepared and able to go to a court in another country and fight a battle with the aforementioned translator?? all costs met by legal aid...... I think not!
> 
> Jo xxx


Plus accommodation and living expenses for said solicitors, heck lets forget the legal aid and just give out money to buy a new house and save money.
I do not think a solicitor from one country can practice law in another.


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## Eco-Mariner

MaidenScotland said:


> Firstly you have to prove a crime has been committed.


And that's precisely my earlier point.

There must be some representation in Egypt by a UK official if only to make sure cases do come to court. You hear of too many criminals buying their way to freedom and any assistance to see justice done is helpful.

Yes, it's always a risk to speculate in these developing countries especially when then are few checks and balances, let alone insurance companies covering such scams. But this is not about UK lawyers and costs being met by the UK tax man, it's about making sure that truth prevails. Ignoring these frauds allow others to perpetuate the crimes.

Eco-Mariner


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## rifleman

marenostrum said:


> not many things are means tested, ie. car crash cases etc etc
> 
> Also it is only means tested if you declare your income correctly...plenty of people on the fiddle with 60k savings in the bank....again my point, we help the dishonest people without looking after the good ones....


Let me be clear. I am not guessing. Let's also assume the worst case, that one is a victim of fraud. In the UK the victim would get no legal aid and no assistance from government in recovering any losses. The limit of the states intervention would to investigate and prosecute crime. Since you are on Egypt that is for the Egyptian authorities to do.

So let's not have this red herring about what people may get here. A British taxpayer in the UK would get no help. So there is absolutely no reason why an expat, many of whom don't pay UK tax remember, should.


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> And that's precisely my earlier point.
> 
> There must be some representation in Egypt by a UK official if only to make sure cases do come to court. You hear of too many criminals buying their way to freedom and any assistance to see justice done is helpful.
> 
> Yes, it's always a risk to speculate in these developing countries especially when then are few checks and balances, let alone insurance companies covering such scams. But this is not about UK lawyers and costs being met by the UK tax man, it's about making sure that truth prevails. Ignoring these frauds allow others to perpetuate the crimes.
> 
> Eco-Mariner


There is a UK official in Egypt whose job it is to highlight and discuss matters of concern to HM Government. He is called an ambassador. You have no right to have any issue raised by him, the Government make those decisions. But like any British Citizen you can ask the foriegn office to raise the issue. It is unlikely that they will be able to do much though as this is a local issue covered by local law.

But, the consul is not paid to take up your issue.


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## hurghadapat

rifleman said:


> There is a UK official in Egypt whose job it is to highlight and discuss matters of concern to HM Government. He is called an ambassador. You have no right to have any issue raised by him, the Government make those decisions. But like any British Citizen you can ask the foriegn office to raise the issue. It is unlikely that they will be able to do much though as this is a local issue covered by local law.
> 
> But, the consul is not paid to take up your issue.


Just had a look at their website and this one of the many things they cannot get involved with.
"get you out of prison, prevent the local authorities from deporting you after your prison sentence, or interfere in criminal or civil court proceedings;" so i would assume that as any cases would be heard in an egyptian court they would be not be able to take any part in it.


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## rifleman

hurghadapat said:


> Just had a look at their website and this one of the many things they cannot get involved with.
> "get you out of prison, prevent the local authorities from deporting you after your prison sentence, or interfere in criminal or civil court proceedings;" so i would assume that as any cases would be heard in an egyptian court they would be not be able to take any part in it.


If the British government has concerns about anything that impacts on its citizens it can take it up via diplomatic channels. But it is unlikely to help in the circumstances here, even if our Government decided to take the issue up. Hell, we could even declare war on Egypt if the OP doesn't get his money back. But how many taxpayers would support it?
What people need to realise is that whilst theoretically HM Gov can do all manner of things, in practice all it will do for an individual is offer limited consular services. Beyond that they will do whatever suits their policy objectives. The posters here are pretty certain to get a polite, diplomatic, response but they won't get help.


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## bart

i am so sorry to say that it is this sort of bloody mindedness, that the british law can work in any country, is what does NOT endear us to anyone in the world. we choose to come to another country so we must abide by their laws, whether we like them or not. however the british government treat asylum seekers or anyone else is not relevant as this occurs on british soil where british law prevails and the british people, as voters, gave them the power to do this. back to square one i think1


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## Eco-Mariner

I agree entirely with your words of wisdom rifleman. You seem to know from experience the inner workings of this Quango.

So what you're saying is don't bother asking for guidence as they just want the position so they can sunbathe and get well fed on the British tax-payer. Your comments suggest that sticking stamps and attending meetings is all they are good for. 

This crisis is being paid for by the plaintiffs and presented by Egyptian lawyers under Egyptian Law. They are not asking for any assistance other than awareness of the situation by the British Authorities. If the Consuls and British Ambassador cannot do that simple task, what good are they from a tax-payer point of view? 

And please don't say as Envoys for trade. This tourist industry is 10% of Egypt's economy.

Eco-Mariner.


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> I agree entirely with your words of wisdom rifleman. You seem to know from experience the inner workings of this Quango.
> 
> So what you're saying is don't bother asking for guidence as they just want the position so they can sunbathe and get well fed on the British tax-payer. Your comments suggest that sticking stamps and attending meetings is all they are good for.
> 
> This crisis is being paid for by the plaintiffs and presented by Egyptian lawyers under Egyptian Law. They are not asking for any assistance other than awareness of the situation by the British Authorities.
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


Then write to the secretary of state for foriegn and commonwealth affairs and you will have achieved your aim. If you need his name and address let me know.


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> I agree entirely with your words of wisdom rifleman. You seem to know from experience the inner workings of this Quango.
> 
> So what you're saying is don't bother asking for guidence as they just want the position so they can sunbathe and get well fed on the British tax-payer. Your comments suggest that sticking stamps and attending meetings is all they are good for.
> 
> If the Consuls and British Ambassador cannot do that simple task, what good are they from a tax-payer point of view?
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


I am a chartered surveyor and have acted as an expert in many UK courts dealing with property disputes, so I know exactly what help you would get if you were a UK taxpayer with this problem in the UK. You would get no help. You still haven't explained to me why British taxpayers should pay to provide you with help they couldn't get.

You can carry on twisting what you are told as much as you like, but in doing so you just make it appear that you can only make a case by twisting the facts.

Here are the facts once again. Consuls are paid to provide the limited consular advice set out on the FCO website (i gave the link earlier). Other diplomatic staff are paid to do what UK Gov tell them to do. None of them are paid, as you sarcastically suggest, to drink or sunbathe. So far your complaint is that these employees of HM Gov will be failing in their duty if they do not take up your case. In fact the opposite is true, they would be failing in their duty if they took up your case without being instructed to by the FCO.


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## rifleman

Oh, and finally in your last post you say you want "guidance". Well get it from your professional advisors, the consul can only give you consular advice and you need legal/professional advice. Advice that the consul isn't qualified to give.


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## Peter Mitry

I think the message here is that if you want a safe investment put your money in something which is guaranteed and will give you a correspondingly low return. If however you want bigger returns then DO YOUR HOMEWORK THOROUGHLY AND SEEK QUALIFIED ADVICE; bigger returns come with bigger risk and there is little point crying 'foul' if it all goes wrong, especially if you have not exhausted all possible checks to ensure the safety of your investment.


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## DeadGuy

rifleman said:


> He gets paid to provide consular services by British taxpayers. None of those taxpayers are entitled to free legal advice or representation if they have the sort of problems you have, so why on earth do you think they should be paying for you to have it?


I'm NOT a Brit, and most probably I should just keep my opinions for myself concerning this issue, but here's the thing........

Concerning the real estate's fraud issue.......Being an Egyptian myself, I can assure you that it wouldn't take THAT much of an effort by any of Her Majesty's diplomats in here to help "pushing" the local government in the right direction of solving the issues instead of sitting and watching the whole process going the funny way it is just cause the FCO rules says they can't/shouldn't do this or that..........If they wanted to do something about it, they could, and it wouldn't cost the taxpayers THAT much........

As for the whole FCO rules' thing, I believe that any expat of any nationality in any country in the whole world should at least feel that someone's "got their back"! Or at least, they shouldn't be feeling that their embassy's staff are "useless", which was most of the posters' initial feeling/reaction towards this thread telling them about the new Consul........

I do understand that it must be a very complicated process to decide/put guide lines for what HM's Ambassadors/Consuls around the world can do for expatriate citizens, or can't in this case; however I believe that people do/did have different reasons to feel that they should not expect/wait for their embassy's help, and obviously it went further than just getting help with the fraud incidents, but also with the evacuation "procedure" arranged by the embassy in January etc. .........And with all this, it doesn't need a rocket scientist to know that people are not happy with their country's representation..........So HM's folks need to realize that, and they should work on changing that lazy image that people had for them, and I believe that actions (Not necessarily actions towards the fraud incidents! But ANY action!) would be the best way to show people that change......

Anyway, hope none of you folks need anyone's help in here! And definitely not a diplomat's help


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## rifleman

Deadguy,
It is taxpayers who pay for the staff who provide services overseas. Since they are the ones who pay for it don't you think they should decide just what services are provided?
That is how democracy works, we elect a government after they tell us how much of our money they are going to spend and what they want to spend it on. In this case the op should have known that he would get no help with this so he has no valid reason to feel disappointed.

You must also realise that public expenditure on the UK is being drastically cut. My daughter is a lawyer dealing in family law, child protection issues and the like, and we have just had legal aid for some of the cases she deals with cut.

It is a matter of someone being disappointed. Do you really think that sorting out a problem in Egypt because a few Brits lost money is more important than helping children who are at risk in.the UK for example? Is it more important than helping people in Britain who have lost their jobs and homes?


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## rifleman

Deadguy,
You know it does not really matter what I think or you think. The fact is that there is nothing that our diplomats can do for this chap. What he needs are lawyers, not diplomats. These are matters that must be dealt with by the Egyptian authorities, the UK Government respects the laws and legal processes of other nations and does not normally comment on or intrfere with them. There is no reason why we should in this case.


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## DeadGuy

rifleman said:


> Deadguy,
> It is taxpayers who pay for the staff who provide services overseas. Since they are the ones who pay for it don't you think they should decide just what services are provided?
> That is how democracy works, we elect a government after they tell us how much of our money they are going to spend and what they want to spend it on. In this case the op should have known that he would get no help with this so he has no valid reason to feel disappointed.
> 
> You must also realise that public expenditure on the UK is being drastically cut. My daughter is a lawyer dealing in family law, child protection issues and the like, and we have just had legal aid for some of the cases she deals with cut.
> 
> It is a matter of someone being disappointed. Do you really think that sorting out a problem in Egypt because a few Brits lost money is more important than helping children who are at risk in.the UK for example? Is it more important than helping people in Britain who have lost their jobs and homes?


Like I said earlier, I do understand that it must be a very complicated process to decide/put guide lines for what HM's Ambassadors/Consuls around the world can or can not do for expatriate citizens, however I don't think anyone would wanna pay for their country's representation around the world if they were kinda sure that their country's Ambassador won't be helping (Which like I said, was the general feeling concerning different issues, not just the fraud's issue).......

It is impossible to make everyone happy, being an Egyptian I do know that more than anyone, but it doesn't sound right to ignore a problem and sit and watch either.........

It's a limited resources' problem, everyone knows that, and it's not just the UK that's facing that, but doing the best you can with the available resources/refunds is what really matters, and from what I've seen since I joined the forum, only very few Brits showed satisfaction of the British representation in Egypt.......The majority showed the opposite of that, and many others left turning into the British embassy for help to be their LAST resort, and that's what I was talking about..........No matter what the problem is, people believe that their embassy is not gonna help.......


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## DeadGuy

rifleman said:


> Deadguy,
> You know it does not really matter what I think or you think. The fact is that there is nothing that our diplomats can do for this chap. What he needs are lawyers, not diplomats. These are matters that must be dealt with by the Egyptian authorities, the UK Government respects the laws and legal processes of other nations and does not normally comment on or intrfere with them. There is no reason why we should in this case.


Well no offense but if the diplomats of any country "can't do anything" to help their citizens with the legal stuff in other countries then there would be no need to have embassies around the world........Or the diplomats would just need to make it clear for everyone that their jobs are strictly political...........

Don't think anyone would complain about not getting help if they understood that their embassies' jobs are strictly political and not for helping with legal problems....But I don't think the taxpayers would bother paying for their country's representatives around the world for that either.......


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## rifleman

There are lots of things they will do. Please read the entire thread and look at the FCO website. Had this chap bothered taking that easy and simple precaution he would have no reason to be disappointed.
It seems you think British taxpayers should pay for whatever it's citizens abroad ask for just so they won't be disappointed. Did you used to be Greek finance minister?


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## bart

very well put rifleman


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## marenostrum

DeadGuy said:


> Well no offense but if the diplomats of any country "can't do anything" to help their citizens with the legal stuff in other countries then there would be no need to have embassies around the world........Or the diplomats would just need to make it clear for everyone that their jobs are strictly political...........
> 
> Don't think anyone would complain about not getting help if they understood that their embassies' jobs are strictly political and not for helping with legal problems....But I don't think the taxpayers would bother paying for their country's representatives around the world for that either.......


Deadguy I would not bother.

At the end of the day these embassies have even stopped issuing replacement passports for their citizens who now have to send their old passport to Paris at great cost to have it replaced. No doubt justification will be given to this as well. 
I guess that as taxpayers we should not expect embassies and the like to issue us with new passport.
Also I guess said diplomats should not be responsible for evacuating their own citizens who are in danger 

Let's see what chapter of the law society book gets quoted now.


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## rifleman

marenostrum said:


> Deadguy I would not bother.


Promises, promises.


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## DeadGuy

rifleman said:


> There are lots of things they will do. Please read the entire thread and look at the FCO website. Had this chap bothered taking that easy and simple precaution he would have no reason to be disappointed.
> It seems you think British taxpayers should pay for whatever it's citizens abroad ask for just so they won't be disappointed. Did you used to be Greek finance minister?


No? And I don't think I'd fit to be a finance minister anywhere! The only money I manage to save is the money I need to spend later on something I need LOL! I spend every penny I got, life's too short! So no, not the Greek finance minister, not even the Egyptian one 

I never said/thought _the taxpayers should pay for whatever the citizens abroad ask for just so they won't be disappointed_, it wasn't me who raised the fraud issue and/or the reasons for the "chap" to be disappointed......What I did say was that the majority of the posts I've seen in here reflected dissatisfaction towards what their country's representation and the services they're offering in here.........But never mind.......I kinda knew I should just keep my opinions to myself concerning this issue, so never mind what I said


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> No? And I don't think I'd fit to be a finance minister anywhere! The only money I manage to save is the money I need to spend later on something I need LOL! I spend every penny I got, life's too short! So no, not the Greek finance minister, not even the Egyptian one
> 
> I never said/thought _the taxpayers should pay for whatever the citizens abroad ask for just so they won't be disappointed_, it wasn't me who raised the fraud issue and/or the reasons for the "chap" to be disappointed......What I did say was that the majority of the posts I've seen in here reflected dissatisfaction towards what their country's representation and the services they're offering in here.........But never mind.......I kinda knew I should just keep my opinions to myself concerning this issue, so never mind what I said





Yes I would say you are probably right in that we are dissatisfied with the service we have received from the embassy. In my case I was unhappy about the lack of information or help coming out during the revolution something that the embassy should have been on top off but this was a security matter and not a local legal matter which the embassy has no legal recourse over. Embassies tend to be contacted when we are in trouble and probably not getting the answer we want annoys us and so we complain.

In all honesty what could the UK do about the problem after all Egypt can't or wont fix it.


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## rifleman

DeadGuy said:


> No? And I don't think I'd fit to be a finance minister anywhere! The only money I manage to save is the money I need to spend later on something I need LOL! I spend every penny I got, life's too short! So no, not the Greek finance minister, not even the Egyptian one
> 
> I never said/thought the taxpayers should pay for whatever the citizens abroad ask for just so they won't be disappointed, it wasn't me who raised the fraud issue and/or the reasons for the "chap" to be disappointed......What I did say was that the majority of the posts I've seen in here reflected dissatisfaction towards what their country's representation and the services they're offering in here.........But never mind.......I kinda knew I should just keep my opinions to myself concerning this issue, so never mind what I said


Well my comments relate to those who are dissatisfied that the consul will not help sort out a civil/commercial dispute over property ownership. That is a matter for the Egyptian legal system.


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## Eco-Mariner

And that's what we are doing rifleman.

What we want from our officials is for them to be aware of the issues and not ignore them. When the High Courts judge in our favour, too late then for the Consul to start praising himself or taking credit if he doesn't get involved or at least voice an opinion on behalf of his citizens and Ex-Pats.

Eco-Mariner.


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## rifleman

Eco Mariner. You are as capable of reading what consular services are available on the FCO website as anyone else and it plainly states that it cannot help you with this type of issue.
If you don't expect any help but think HM Gov ought to know about the broader issues and perhaps relay any concerns it has to the Egyptian government then you need to communicate to a member of the government. The secretary of state for foriegn and commonwealth affairs ideally. Not some consul who has no power to decide to do that.


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## rifleman

Eco-Mariner said:


> Not this time my friend.
> 
> Mr. John Kenny is walking into a nightmare scenario with property investors screaming for justice in Hurghada right now. I personally will be pushing for his attention.
> 
> He won't have time to sunbathe and drink Martini's.
> 
> Eco-Mariner.


Is what you originally posted. Quite different from merely wanting to keep HM Gov informed.


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## Helen Ellis

marenostrum said:


> Deadguy I would not bother.
> 
> At the end of the day these embassies have even stopped issuing replacement passports for their citizens who now have to send their old passport to Paris at great cost to have it replaced. No doubt justification will be given to this as well.
> I guess that as taxpayers we should not expect embassies and the like to issue us with new passport.
> Also I guess said diplomats should not be responsible for evacuating their own citizens who are in danger
> 
> Let's see what chapter of the law society book gets quoted now.


I will be renewing my Passport in UK, I have no desire to be in a foreign country without a passport!


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## MaidenScotland

ORIGINAL PASSPORT: Egypt is an exception to the main guidance given on our primary website. It is preferable not to be without your original passport in Egypt and we recognise this. You may therefore submit, with your old passport, a clear photocopy of your passport (just the page with your personal details and photograph) which will need to be signed and stamped by the Embassy. Your old passport will then be handed back to you, to keep for ID purposes. Please note that once we begin renewing your passport application your old passport will be cancelled electronically on our passport system so you will not be able to use it for travel.

If you provide the photocopied page then this will be free of charge. However, if the Embassy needs to make a photocopy we are obliged to charge for this (LE55 Consular Fee 8).

When collecting your new passport from the Embassy in Cairo or Consulate General in Alexandria we will need to then physically cancel your old passport as well before we are able to hand over your new passport.”


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## Helen Ellis

MaidenScotland said:


> ORIGINAL PASSPORT: Egypt is an exception to the main guidance given on our primary website. It is preferable not to be without your original passport in Egypt and we recognise this. You may therefore submit, with your old passport, a clear photocopy of your passport (just the page with your personal details and photograph) which will need to be signed and stamped by the Embassy. Your old passport will then be handed back to you, to keep for ID purposes. Please note that once we begin renewing your passport application your old passport will be cancelled electronically on our passport system so you will not be able to use it for travel.
> 
> If you provide the photocopied page then this will be free of charge. However, if the Embassy needs to make a photocopy we are obliged to charge for this (LE55 Consular Fee 8).
> 
> When collecting your new passport from the Embassy in Cairo or Consulate General in Alexandria we will need to then physically cancel your old passport as well before we are able to hand over your new passport.”




Phew, thanks for this information. I will spread the word.


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## MaidenScotland

Helen Ellis said:


> Phew, thanks for this information. I will spread the word.


Being a Scot and as it's free I just might renew mine through the embassy, my passport is only 3 years old but I have very few pages left as the big entry visas take up so much space.


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> Being a Scot and as it's free I just might renew mine through the embassy, my passport is only 3 years old but I have very few pages left as the big entry visas take up so much space.


Errr.....don't think they mean passport will be free just they will not charge you the 55le for making a photocopy for you.


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## MaidenScotland

hurghadapat said:


> Errr.....don't think they mean passport will be free just they will not charge you the 55le for making a photocopy for you.




lol just re read it and I think you are right... might be worth trying though


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## marenostrum

MaidenScotland said:


> Being a Scot and as it's free I just might renew mine through the embassy, my passport is only 3 years old but I have very few pages left as the big entry visas take up so much space.



This will probably cost me a lifetime ban from the forum, (to rifleman's delight no doubt), but why should a scot be entitled to a passport in the first place?


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## marenostrum

hurghadapat said:


> Errr.....don't think they mean passport will be free just they will not charge you the 55le for making a photocopy for you.


and let me guess, what are the opening hours of the consular office where you can have the copy authenticated? are we looking at something like 1030 until 1045 three times a week providing of course that the consul's wife has finished her cocktail by the pool? :ranger:


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## Peter Mitry

*Free Passports for Scots?*



marenostrum said:


> This will probably cost me a lifetime ban from the forum, (to rifleman's delight no doubt), but why should a scot be entitled to a passport in the first place?


Entitled is not the issue, its the FREE that raised the eyebrows!!!!


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## rifleman

marenostrum said:


> This will probably cost me a lifetime ban from the forum, (to rifleman's delight no doubt), but why should a scot be entitled to a passport in the first place?


And why would I want you banned?


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