# Realistically, what are the chances of finding a job?



## steph28

Hi everyone,

My boyfriend and I would love to move to Spain but having sat for the past couple of hours reading through posts on this forum I am beginning to wonder if this is an unrealistic option for us. I have recently graduated in Spanish and French so would class myself as fluent. I'm open to any sort of work but only have experience in retail and restaurant work. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I should look for work or what type of work I should look for? From what I have read I understand that it's extremely difficult to find work at the moment but any advice is much appreciated!!

Thanks in advance,

Steph


----------



## Guest

No proper skills = no work - the place is already overrun with people that will do anything for next to nothing

With French, Spanish and English you might get a Customer Service role in Gibraltar but without experience in that you´d probably struggle

This time of year you might get a low paid cash job in a bar or pr work handing out flyers but probably missed the boat now


----------



## jojo

Andy's right, but you could always come over for a fact finding holiday and have a look??? If you're lucky you could be in the right place at the right time??

Jo xx


----------



## Guest

Steph, 

If you're desperate to get to Spain, check out the areas with less expats. The northern coast might be an interesting place to look! 

Good luck!


----------



## Xose

steph28 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My boyfriend and I would love to move to Spain but having sat for the past couple of hours reading through posts on this forum I am beginning to wonder if this is an unrealistic option for us. I have recently graduated in Spanish and French so would class myself as fluent. I'm open to any sort of work but only have experience in retail and restaurant work. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I should look for work or what type of work I should look for? From what I have read I understand that it's extremely difficult to find work at the moment but any advice is much appreciated!!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Steph


Put your CV on the sites of the main retailers, Carrefour, Auchamp (Al Campo), Lidl etc., under the link "Trabaja con nosotros" or similar. State that you'll be here soon on the additional info and who knows, you might get a reply.

Good luck.

Xose
P.S.Most head offoce work will be Madrid or Barcelona. Don't forget to fluff up as much as you can on the bits you can cover. Retail on a counter could be "Customer Relations" etc.


----------



## 90199

Fluent in three languages, a degree in two, you must be in with a chance of work!!!

If it was me I would arrive on a fact finding mission. I would also seriously consider a course on interpreting. 

I think you will make it, best of luck, and make your qualifications work for you,

Hepa


----------



## gerrit

While it is true that Spain has the highest unemployment rate in the EU except for Latvia, I would not be as pessimistic as some others here. I too was desperate for a while when I was jobhunting in Spain, but meanwhile I'm here for quite a while already  The saying "If you really want to work, you will find a job" often is correct, it's just that some places require some more patience or determination to find it. But in the end ...

You speak Spanish fluently and two foreign languages. I think a lot of hotels and cafes would be happy to have you but indeed this ain't the best time of the year to apply for such jobs. In the big cities + Gibraltar there's a lot of customer service roles which require language skills such as yours. And no, most of them don't require a lot of experience, many of those (I worked in a lot of those places by now) will do a test call to see if you have good phone communication skills. Obviously experience helps, but it's not exactly always a requirement.

For sure, check websites of recruitment agencies that cater on expats in Spain, they usually have the multilingual vacancies. Also, if you have the budget for it, pay a visit to Barcelona, Madrid and/or Gibraltar and start asking around. But even online you will probably find at least a few vacancies.

Good luck!


----------



## mrypg9

There are more job vacancies currently advertised in Sur, true, but most of these jobs are in catering/bars/restaurants, property sales/rentals or call centres. Not very enticing as salaries are low or commission-based, hours long and I suspect many of these posts are temporary.
A degree should qualify one for something more demanding in terms of skills/knowledge acquired than cafe work, surely? I have an Honours degree in French and German from UCLU but, were I looking for work, I would hope to do something else with it other than serve beer in Munich or cafe au lait in Lille!
As I've said before on this forum, at a time when unemployment amongst Spanish nationals here is at 20%, any job vacancies should go to Spaniards first.


----------



## Guest

mrypg9 said:


> at a time when unemployment amongst Spanish nationals here is at 20%, any job vacancies should go to Spaniards first.


Sounds like terrible stereotyping but unfortunately my experiences and from talking to people around here is that the Spanish aren´t really that bothered. Jobs exist and they get offered but generally no one seems interested because the wage might be paying below what they think they´re worth or what they used to earn two years ago, or they are precious about the role being beneath them

The job should go to the person thats most qualified/suitable for the role, regardless of where they were born


----------



## jojo

ShinyAndy said:


> Sounds like terrible stereotyping but unfortunately my experiences and from talking to people around here is that the Spanish aren´t really that bothered. Jobs exist and they get offered but generally no one seems interested because the wage might be paying below what they think they´re worth or what they used to earn two years ago, or they are precious about the role being beneath them
> 
> The job should go to the person thats most qualified/suitable for the role, regardless of where they were born



If we're talking unskilled jobs tho...... and around here, it seems that the Spanish do want the jobs, especially school leavers/holiday jobs cos the dole money either isnt there or is limited

jo xxx


----------



## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> There are more job vacancies currently advertised in Sur, true, but most of these jobs are in catering/bars/restaurants, property sales/rentals or call centres. Not very enticing as salaries are low or commission-based, hours long and I suspect many of these posts are temporary.
> A degree should qualify one for something more demanding in terms of skills/knowledge acquired than cafe work, surely? I have an Honours degree in French and German from UCLU but, were I looking for work, I would hope to do something else with it other than serve beer in Munich or cafe au lait in Lille!
> As I've said before on this forum, at a time when unemployment amongst Spanish nationals here is at 20%, any job vacancies should go to Spaniards first.


I don't dare to comment on bartending or hotel work. But I worked in callcenters in 5 different countries, so speaking from experience I would not say this is poorly paid work per definition. Some pay poorly yes, and examples are around here. I heard of some where the monthly salary is below 1000 euro netto (and that's in Barcelona where rentals below 800 euro a month are considered cheap). But I also heard of places where people with a callcenter background work and are paid well over the average local wage (and in Spain there's a nice option of living in Spain on a British salary by working in Gibraltar, home of several such businesses)

Often callcenters, hotels, bars etc are a nice stepping stone: you're in the country and you make some money, meanwhile you can network and look for a better alternative. But to allow you to make the move, a temporary stepping stone is often very handy. And as said, not all callcenters pay poor salaries, and some allow for promotion which means a really nice salary (personally I am not that interested in that so never tried to get promoted ; but several former colleagues of mine made a step up and get a very attractive salary within the same callcenter where they started)

And as I said, I don't know how much hotels and such pay, but guess it depends on which hotel you work for. When I first visited Norway I was in an irish pub drinking a coca-cola. I still lived in Ireland myself then. The bartender was an Irish guy who was offered the bartending position while visiting Norway himself. While he did complain about the stressful job and long hours, his salary was surprisingly high. When I asked my Norwegian friends they said bartending is not considered a low profile job in Norway and bartenders often get paid similar wages to office workers.

It all depends on the employer, but to classify callcenter or hotel/cafe work as bad per definition is surely not entirely true. I would agree with you though when you say that one needs to be wary of commission-based jobs. I wouldn't like that idea of not having a clue how much (or how little) I'll earn the next month ...


----------



## mrypg9

ShinyAndy said:


> The job should go to the person thats most qualified/suitable for the role, regardless of where they were born



Sorry, can't agree, not for most jobs anyway. 
The British or Spanish taxpayer bears the cost of supporting the unemployed. It seems absurd that there should be millions of Brits or Spaniards without employment when non-UK or non-Spanish nationals are taking so many jobs. The figures for youth unemployment in Spain and the UK are higher than the average. What future for a young person?
IMO we made a big mistake when along with ROI we allowed unrestricted entry from the former Soviet-bloc EU member states in 2004. Other EU states imposed quotas as we have now done for some EU nationals and entrants from other non-EU countries.
The ultimate logic of what you say is unrestricted immigration and downward pressure on wages.
I do agree that we should allow workers with scarce skills to enter the UK or Spanish job market. Such people are usually job creators and not job thieves. Teachers of English are a good example of that.
I spent five years of my life at University and if I went to Germany and used my German working in a bar I would be stealing a job from a lesser-qualified German national as well as wasting all those years of study..
I feel the same about British immigrants who relocate here and don't register on the padron. They use public services but don't contribute to them.


----------



## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I don't dare to comment on bartending or hotel work. But I worked in callcenters in 5 different countries, so speaking from experience I would not say this is poorly paid work per definition. Some pay poorly yes, and examples are around here. I heard of some where the monthly salary is below 1000 euro netto (and that's in Barcelona where rentals below 800 euro a month are considered cheap). But I also heard of places where people with a callcenter background work and are paid well over the average local wage (and in Spain there's a nice option of living in Spain on a British salary by working in Gibraltar, home of several such businesses)
> 
> Often callcenters, hotels, bars etc are a nice stepping stone: you're in the country and you make some money, meanwhile you can network and look for a better alternative. But to allow you to make the move, a temporary stepping stone is often very handy. And as said, not all callcenters pay poor salaries, and some allow for promotion which means a really nice salary (personally I am not that interested in that so never tried to get promoted ; but several former colleagues of mine made a step up and get a very attractive salary within the same callcenter where they started)
> 
> And as I said, I don't know how much hotels and such pay, but guess it depends on which hotel you work for. When I first visited Norway I was in an irish pub drinking a coca-cola. I still lived in Ireland myself then. The bartender was an Irish guy who was offered the bartending position while visiting Norway himself. While he did complain about the stressful job and long hours, his salary was surprisingly high. When I asked my Norwegian friends they said bartending is not considered a low profile job in Norway and bartenders often get paid similar wages to office workers.
> 
> It all depends on the employer, but to classify callcenter or hotel/cafe work as bad per definition is surely not entirely true. I would agree with you though when you say that one needs to be wary of commission-based jobs. I wouldn't like that idea of not having a clue how much (or how little) I'll earn the next month ...


All that may well be true but what constitutes a 'good' salary depends on your expectations, qualifications and what you are used to. When I was a student I was happy to get work at a wage level I wouldn't contemplate once I was professionally qualified. I have worked as a shop assistant, chambermaid and silver service waitress and I honestly have to say that in many ways they were all jobs which were more exhausting, physically at least, than any 'professional' job I had.
My point is this, really: well-qualified professional people, especially if they have relevant experience, are in demand in most places in the world. Those jobs which are comparatively unskilled and which often pay less than the effort put in deserves are usually the most sought-after and which should go to local people i.e. nationals of the country first.
That is an employment practice carried out to a greater or lesser extent in most countries in the world. Some countries i.e. Canada will only accept immigrants with skills the local market cannot supply to the amount required. Most countries regulate their labour markets in one way or another.


----------



## mrypg9

And finally...I should have included people like yourself in the 'job creating' category, Andy.


----------



## baldilocks

What are you *qualified* in? and I mean qualified! not I speak English, therefore I am qualified to teach it or act as a translator/interpreter. Too many Brits have tried that one leaving many dissatisfied clients fuming and a lot poorer, even to the point of losing their home and all their money!

If you are qualified and can get into those fields and you are any good, you will find the work comes looking for you. 

Spanish teachers who are employed by the state are forbidden to take out-of-school work which is why we have a number of local teachers' children coming here for private lessons. They have all come on recommendations and we have two or three new ones ring at the door every week.

Similarly if you are qualified in other fields and are good at it, work will come looking for you once word gets round. That is the way most things happen around here. The alternative is to go through the long drawn-out process of getting qualifications recognised, then going through equally long selection processes. 

If you have no qualifications but have a demonstrable skill (e.g. plastering, house-painting, etc.) then some builder may take you on if he has more work than his existing workers can handle (last winter's weather took a terrible toll on many houses resulting in lots of work for small builders).

Get to know as many people locally as you can, even if it is only to say "Hola, buenos días". One of the local policemen came up to me and said "I like you, you are open, warm and friendly unlike many of the other Inglés" and through him and his contacts we have had loads of gifts of fruit and veg (including ALL the Seville oranges that grow in the streets for orange marmalade which it is illegal to pick and a number of pupils for language lessons - English, Spanish and French)

Good luck!


----------



## mrypg9

If you have no qualifications but have a demonstrable skill (e.g. plastering, house-painting, etc.) then some builder may take you on if he has more work than his existing workers can handle (last winter's weather took a terrible toll on many houses resulting in lots of work for small builders).



The only work you might get in many parts of Spain is demolishing unfinished projects.
Construction is dead and no recovery is in sight..


----------



## Linda In Spain

Hi Steph,give a brief resume.
Age,relationship status,important qualifications,work experience and ambitions.
Believe it or not,business people read these boards.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> If you have no qualifications but have a demonstrable skill (e.g. plastering, house-painting, etc.) then some builder may take you on if he has more work than his existing workers can handle (last winter's weather took a terrible toll on many houses resulting in lots of work for small builders).
> 
> 
> 
> The only work you might get in many parts of Spain is demolishing unfinished projects.
> Construction is dead and no recovery is in sight..


There's a lot of work around here. Our house for example has had to be completely re-rendered with capa fina after all the rain got through the walls and blasted off the previous finish. From here I can see at least six houses that are being or have recently been re-roofed. I'm still waiting for a builder to come back to finish the work he started (he's waiting for a new ally door and window to be made but the factory is overloaded with an order for an urbanisation.


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> There's a lot of work around here. Our house for example has had to be completely re-rendered with capa fina after all the rain got through the walls and blasted off the previous finish. From here I can see at least six houses that are being or have recently been re-roofed. I'm still waiting for a builder to come back to finish the work he started (he's waiting for a new ally door and window to be made but the factory is overloaded with an order for an urbanisation.


There are bits and pieces around, but its very much who you know and I dont think theres enough of it to secure a regular income. I have a friend who is a builder and he says exactly that. Each potential job is chased by several other local builders and the estimates have to be very competitive - and then apparently, as in the UK, most insurance claim work is only allowed to be done by certain builders????

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> There's a lot of work around here. Our house for example has had to be completely re-rendered with capa fina after all the rain got through the walls and blasted off the previous finish. From here I can see at least six houses that are being or have recently been re-roofed. I'm still waiting for a builder to come back to finish the work he started (he's waiting for a new ally door and window to be made but the factory is overloaded with an order for an urbanisation.


But then you would surely prefer that any such work went to locals rather than British immigrants?
As Jo says, there are always bits and pieces to be done. But major projects are few and far between.
Thankfully.


----------



## mrypg9

Linda In Spain said:


> .
> Believe it or not,business people read these boards.



What's not to believe??? There are a lot of us about...active, retired, semi-retired, experienced in running and owning companies of all sizes and in many and varied fields..


----------



## Maundler

Hey Steph, I hope your job search goes well and although I might come off as pessimistic, don't feel discouraged. Jojo is right in most things, Spain is right now living in a tough spot (economically-wise) and unemployment is really a problem in Spain with over 20%. Recent reports say that unemployment is growing and is expected to keep on growing, so that is a bad fact right from the start. 

So, keep in mind that Spain is one of the countries which pays the lowest salaries between UK, Germany, Italy, Holland, France, Belgium etc. That means that for a degree educated person without experience in his/her field will get job offers of 800-1200 euros a month and the living costs has risen a lot. If you do have experience (and extensive experience at that) you will get "good" offers for a job and probably can earn between 1,600-2,400 euros a month. You would have to be very lucky to get the job though, since you would have to be at the right time and the right place, meet the exact person who can give you the job.... It is not impossible, but it is really hard. 

Then you got the problem with unemployment, although most spaniards aren't concerned about their situation and the fact that they don't have any job, there are still spaniards who are actually concerned, not to mention the immigration from America who are willing to do the job for practically nothing. So, the companies are taking full advantage of this, the spaniards have to lower their own salary expectations because the South Americans are willing to do the job for a lot less, and they are prepared too. Although I am Mexican I lost a job a few years ago because I was asking for what I thought was a decent salary, but they gave it to a south american folk who was willing to work for alot less than I... So, you have to consider all these...

Second of all, where do you want to live?? Do you have something planned? Or are you still searching? I will try to break every Zone in Spain here...
*Barcelona -* Extremely expensive, one of the most expensive cities in Europe, just after London, Paris and just some others. Rent is really high. As I see you will be coming with your boyfriend, you will need a single or 2 bedroom flat, so the rent will vary from around 700-1200 euros a month. Salaries are the highest in Spain (for degree educated people) but sometimes is still not enough to live in the city of Barcelona.... I would recommend living in the outskirts of the city, is a lot cheaper..
Barcelona has a lot of pros and cons, and you have to consider that this city is full with people around europe, so you will be competing for jobs with fellow EUs and with english too and several other languages. 
And last but not least, Barcelona has his "language" "CATALAN". NOW, in most cases this isn't a problem, but in MANY cases, companies want people to be at least fluent in catalan, so that might be a problem.. A lot of companies (Headquarters mostly) are leaving Barcelona because they are tired of their "catalan" and "nationalism" and they are going to Madrid.
*Madrid - *Not as expensive as Barcelona, but still expensive. People might not realise this, but Spain is not the same CHEAP country it was 10 years ago, and unfortunately it is getting more expensive every year. In Madrid rent would cost around 600 - 1100 for a single or 2 bedroom flat. Salaries are not that high if you don't have experience, and although rent is a bit cheaper than Barcelona, I would suggest renting probably just outside the city and you can find some bargains... Public transport is good and you won't find any problems with prices there. You can get a bus/train monthly ticket and its not expensive at all...
*Andalucia* - I would only recommend living in Seville, Cordoba or Cadiz. Beautiful cities and people there are the warmest people in all Spain, truly friendly and if you speak fluent spanish you will have some laughs with them, as most of them are considered really funny (I think they are funny). This part of Spain is probably cheap to live in... Salaries are "low" although with those prices you can land a job offer of around 1,000 - 1,200 euros depending on qualifications and experience. Rent is lower than in Barcelona or Madrid and you can live in the city of Seville which is really beautiful... Weather here is very nice, although summer is extremely hot!! so carry your own water all day long!! 
*North Zone (Navarra, San Sebastian, Bilbao, etc) *- Really beautiful!! Those cities are REALLY expensive, although salaries here are a bit higher than in any part of Spain!! Rent and cost of living are a bit higher than most cities in Spain but food there is considered the best of Spain, and I can vouche for that!  Weather is probably the worst part of these parts, but it is still far better than any city in the UK, definitely a part of Spain you have to visit if you are here. One thing you have to be careful in these parts is ETA (terrorists).. Careful which restaurant you step into, it might be full with these people... DONT WORRY TOO MUCH THOUGH...
*Asturias and La Coruña* - Beautiful parts of Spain too!!! a lot of little towns right next to cliffs, and beautiful views!! cities are small, even La Coruña is small, job opportunities are not very high, not to many job opportunities in this side of Spain, but if you land a job offer, you might want to consider it!! Rent and cost of living is not that high!! and salaries are just about medium, but I would say you can pretty much live with a medium salary in these parts.
*Valencian Community (Alicante, Valencia, etc.)* - Valencia is the city I currently live in... It is a really nice city!! Really beautiful, with plenty of things to do. Cost of living and rent is not that high. You can rent a 3 bedroom flat for around 550 € a month in a good part of Valencia and the cost of living isn't that high. Job opportunities are "mid-level". Valencia is still growing and it aims to be a "big" city.. still a long way to go for that. If you land a job offer in Valencia is definitely a place to consider.. Great weather, salaries are not as high as Barcelona or Madrid, but living costs are a lot cheaper than in those cities. One thing about Valencia, if you are looking to buy a property, then go elsewhere, Valencia is really expensive when it comes to BUYING a property, just as Barcelona or Madrid. You can land easily a job offer for 1,000-1,200 without experience and just a bit more if you have experience.
Alicante is a nice city, if you do not speak fluent english, then Alicante and the cities around Alicante is a place for you. They got a great deal of UK citizens living there, and people from Norway, Germany and the Northern Part of Europe. All businesses in Alicante and the surroundings are advertised in English and Spanish because of the high english population on site. 
*Mallorca, Menorca* - Practically a german colony..  but it is a beautiful island, although I can't give you much input in this. I know the salaries are like Valencia but I do not know living costs or rent prices.
*Canary Islands* - The same as Mallorca.


I hope this helps!!  good luck with your job search!


----------



## jojo

Maundler said:


> Hey Steph, I hope your job search goes well and although I might come off as pessimistic, don't feel discouraged. Jojo is right in most things, Spain is right now living in a tough spot (economically-wise) and unemployment is really a problem in Spain with over 20%. Recent reports say that unemployment is growing and is expected to keep on growing, so that is a bad fact right from the start.
> 
> So, keep in mind that Spain is one of the countries which pays the lowest salaries between UK, Germany, Italy, Holland, France, Belgium etc. That means that for a degree educated person without experience in his/her field will get job offers of 800-1200 euros a month and the living costs has risen a lot. If you do have experience (and extensive experience at that) you will get "good" offers for a job and probably can earn between 1,600-2,400 euros a month. You would have to be very lucky to get the job though, since you would have to be at the right time and the right place, meet the exact person who can give you the job.... It is not impossible, but it is really hard.
> 
> Then you got the problem with unemployment, although most spaniards aren't concerned about their situation and the fact that they don't have any job, there are still spaniards who are actually concerned, not to mention the immigration from America who are willing to do the job for practically nothing. So, the companies are taking full advantage of this, the spaniards have to lower their own salary expectations because the South Americans are willing to do the job for a lot less, and they are prepared too. Although I am Mexican I lost a job a few years ago because I was asking for what I thought was a decent salary, but they gave it to a south american folk who was willing to work for alot less than I... So, you have to consider all these...
> 
> Second of all, where do you want to live?? Do you have something planned? Or are you still searching? I will try to break every Zone in Spain here...
> *Barcelona -* Extremely expensive, one of the most expensive cities in Europe, just after London, Paris and just some others. Rent is really high. As I see you will be coming with your boyfriend, you will need a single or 2 bedroom flat, so the rent will vary from around 700-1200 euros a month. Salaries are the highest in Spain (for degree educated people) but sometimes is still not enough to live in the city of Barcelona.... I would recommend living in the outskirts of the city, is a lot cheaper..
> Barcelona has a lot of pros and cons, and you have to consider that this city is full with people around europe, so you will be competing for jobs with fellow EUs and with english too and several other languages.
> And last but not least, Barcelona has his "language" "CATALAN". NOW, in most cases this isn't a problem, but in MANY cases, companies want people to be at least fluent in catalan, so that might be a problem.. A lot of companies (Headquarters mostly) are leaving Barcelona because they are tired of their "catalan" and "nationalism" and they are going to Madrid.
> *Madrid - *Not as expensive as Barcelona, but still expensive. People might not realise this, but Spain is not the same CHEAP country it was 10 years ago, and unfortunately it is getting more expensive every year. In Madrid rent would cost around 600 - 1100 for a single or 2 bedroom flat. Salaries are not that high if you don't have experience, and although rent is a bit cheaper than Barcelona, I would suggest renting probably just outside the city and you can find some bargains... Public transport is good and you won't find any problems with prices there. You can get a bus/train monthly ticket and its not expensive at all...
> *Andalucia* - I would only recommend living in Seville, Cordoba or Cadiz. Beautiful cities and people there are the warmest people in all Spain, truly friendly and if you speak fluent spanish you will have some laughs with them, as most of them are considered really funny (I think they are funny). This part of Spain is probably cheap to live in... Salaries are "low" although with those prices you can land a job offer of around 1,000 - 1,200 euros depending on qualifications and experience. Rent is lower than in Barcelona or Madrid and you can live in the city of Seville which is really beautiful... Weather here is very nice, although summer is extremely hot!! so carry your own water all day long!!
> *North Zone (Navarra, San Sebastian, Bilbao, etc) *- Really beautiful!! Those cities are REALLY expensive, although salaries here are a bit higher than in any part of Spain!! Rent and cost of living are a bit higher than most cities in Spain but food there is considered the best of Spain, and I can vouche for that!  Weather is probably the worst part of these parts, but it is still far better than any city in the UK, definitely a part of Spain you have to visit if you are here. One thing you have to be careful in these parts is ETA (terrorists).. Careful which restaurant you step into, it might be full with these people... DONT WORRY TOO MUCH THOUGH...
> *Asturias and La Coruña* - Beautiful parts of Spain too!!! a lot of little towns right next to cliffs, and beautiful views!! cities are small, even La Coruña is small, job opportunities are not very high, not to many job opportunities in this side of Spain, but if you land a job offer, you might want to consider it!! Rent and cost of living is not that high!! and salaries are just about medium, but I would say you can pretty much live with a medium salary in these parts.
> *Valencian Community (Alicante, Valencia, etc.)* - Valencia is the city I currently live in... It is a really nice city!! Really beautiful, with plenty of things to do. Cost of living and rent is not that high. You can rent a 3 bedroom flat for around 550 € a month in a good part of Valencia and the cost of living isn't that high. Job opportunities are "mid-level". Valencia is still growing and it aims to be a "big" city.. still a long way to go for that. If you land a job offer in Valencia is definitely a place to consider.. Great weather, salaries are not as high as Barcelona or Madrid, but living costs are a lot cheaper than in those cities. One thing about Valencia, if you are looking to buy a property, then go elsewhere, Valencia is really expensive when it comes to BUYING a property, just as Barcelona or Madrid. You can land easily a job offer for 1,000-1,200 without experience and just a bit more if you have experience.
> Alicante is a nice city, if you do not speak fluent english, then Alicante and the cities around Alicante is a place for you. They got a great deal of UK citizens living there, and people from Norway, Germany and the Northern Part of Europe. All businesses in Alicante and the surroundings are advertised in English and Spanish because of the high english population on site.
> *Mallorca, Menorca* - Practically a german colony..  but it is a beautiful island, although I can't give you much input in this. I know the salaries are like Valencia but I do not know living costs or rent prices.
> *Canary Islands* - The same as Mallorca.
> 
> 
> I hope this helps!!  good luck with your job search!



WOW!!! What a good and informative post, it must have taken you ages! Thank you

Jo xxx


----------



## gerrit

Erm, Barcelona is extremely expensive but if you live here a bit longer then you start to know where the bargains are. It is mainly extremely expensive to relocate to because in the beginning you will need somewhere to stay (likely a hotel) while househunting, meanwhile when you find a flat you usually pay a month's rent + 2 month's deposit and sometimes the estate agent fee is close to another month's rent. So relocating here will require at least a 2500 or 3000 euro to get started, and a job with an above average income if you wish to live on your own (when sharing a flat it gets somewhat more relaxed)

I don't see many businesses moving away because of the Catalan though. Most people here speak Spanish because of the huge influx of expats (of whom many South Americans who speak the regular Spanish language) and influx of people from other areas of Spain. Catalan is king in the smaller cities and rural areas of Catalunya, but in BCN itself a lot of people have Spanish as first language.


----------



## adelante

Hi Maundler - that was an extremely impressive post, great reading. 

Can I ask what industry you are involved in, and what job you are doing at the moment? I would like to move to the Alicante area. Just looking for a heads up on the job situation.


----------



## Maundler

gerrit said:


> Erm, Barcelona is extremely expensive but if you live here a bit longer then you start to know where the bargains are. It is mainly extremely expensive to relocate to because in the beginning you will need somewhere to stay (likely a hotel) while househunting, meanwhile when you find a flat you usually pay a month's rent + 2 month's deposit and sometimes the estate agent fee is close to another month's rent. So relocating here will require at least a 2500 or 3000 euro to get started, and a job with an above average income if you wish to live on your own (when sharing a flat it gets somewhat more relaxed)
> 
> I don't see many businesses moving away because of the Catalan though. Most people here speak Spanish because of the huge influx of expats (of whom many South Americans who speak the regular Spanish language) and influx of people from other areas of Spain. Catalan is king in the smaller cities and rural areas of Catalunya, but in BCN itself a lot of people have Spanish as first language.


While everything you state here is true, you are still missing some of the essence of my post, and I can see why you would do that because I didn't explain myself pretty much..  

Barcelona is a multi-cultural city, so yes, everybody has to speak Spanish, I don't know if your experiences might tell you otherwise, but I work with companies from Barcelona every day, and I meet with all these peoples almost every week, my wife works at a Hotel chain (HUSA) which is from Barcelona and she travels to Barcelona quite often too... And you, being from Belgium might hold off the people of Barcelona to start talking in Catalan in your faces, probably out of respect or probably because they know you won't understand it at 100%. BUT, being a native spanish speaker and living in Valencia (which has its own language to "Valencian" and its practically the same as the Catalan) it gives you an idea how rude people are when they are at a meeting. I haven't had JUST one experience, but multiple experiences and everytime I have a meeting with several "catalans", I find it so disrespectful to start talking ABOUT THE MEETING in catalan between them (while the whole meeting was being held in spanish)... If they were talking about some personal issue, I wouldn't mind them talking in catalan between them but to start discussing about something regarding the project and the campaign is very disrespectful... But to tell you the truth, I don't know if they do it on purpose, just to make everyone mad or something, because it is true that most Catalan speaking people live in the towns in Catalunya and not in Barcelona, but that doesn't mean that Spaniards in Catalunya doesn't speak it.

My wife goes there almost every 2 weeks, and we are talking about a pretty big Hotel Chain, people from over Spain are coming in to do meetings, projects and whatnot, and they do that too to every spaniard. As I said, probably you being from Belgium and all might hold them off. Anyway, they do speak Catalan in many cases you might not be familiar with, but they do speak spanish because of the multi-cultural city. BUT I HAVE TO SAY, not every person from Barcelona is this way, but alot are, and from the 50 or so clients I have, I have been in this situation more than you can imagine. AND THE THING IS THAT I LOVE BARCELONA, but this is the way it is.

On my personal experience, I have been rejected for 3 positions in Barcelona, because I didn't have Catalan as a language. Although I have to say that probably 80% of the companies in Barcelona don't need their employees to know Catalan there is a big 20% that does. 

As for the companies moving, there are quite a few companies which are moving not because they speak catalan, but because of the nationalism (although not as strong as Pais Vasco, or even the towns around Barcelona) it is still a problem, public schools have mostly 5 classes (1st. grade for example) out of those 5, you got 3 in Catalan-line-education and 2 in Spanish-line-education and a lot of people who are not even interested in that line of education have to settle for the Catalan one because, either they 1. don't want to pay for private eduaction or 2. they can't afford it... And most of these companies are national companies, not multi-national ones.. but it is still news... Seen it on 2 companies already and seen it on the news on "la sexta"... I will look it up if I find it and let you know


----------



## Maundler

adelante said:


> Hi Maundler - that was an extremely impressive post, great reading.
> 
> Can I ask what industry you are involved in, and what job you are doing at the moment? I would like to move to the Alicante area. Just looking for a heads up on the job situation.


I work at a Marketing Agency here in Valencia, I am the Marketing Manager for this agency, it is a small agency, but we are growing fast! 

I do have some contacts in Alicante, depending on the industry you might want to come work for... What is it that you do? 

If you want to know something else, please let me know...


----------



## adelante

Maundler said:


> I work at a Marketing Agency here in Valencia, I am the Marketing Manager for this agency, it is a small agency, but we are growing fast!
> 
> I do have some contacts in Alicante, depending on the industry you might want to come work for... What is it that you do?
> 
> If you want to know something else, please let me know...


I work in IT - I am in the UK right now, I am 35 and have about 15 years experience in the industry. I work in telecoms - in the field of document management/collaboration software (Microsoft SharePoint, Opentext Livelink, Oracle, SQL etc) .

The age old question, do I need to be in Spain to find a job - or can I fix something up here then make the move??

Thanks again - you are a ray of light in a forum beset by depression.


----------



## jojo

adelante said:


> Thanks again - you are a ray of light in a forum beset by depression.


Sadly, he's a ray of light in a _country_ beset by depression lol!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Guest

Do you speak Spanish?


----------



## adelante

ShinyAndy said:


> Do you speak Spanish?


Andy, I am 100% 'conversational'. I can conjugate verbs, speak in past, present, future tense and so on. I have hit a wall with the language here in the UK as I don't have the opportunity to speak every day, I can only get so far, you know? 3 months in Spain and I would be completely OK. I can speak Italian - the languages are quite similar - the 'rules' are the same.

You need to live in the country and be completely immersed to have any degree of fluency, I feel.

I also speak English (and Glasgow dialect)..


----------



## adelante

jojo said:


> Sadly, he's a ray of light in a _country_ beset by depression lol!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Hah - very true!!


----------



## mrypg9

adelante said:


> Thanks again - you are a ray of light in a forum beset by depression.


Who's depressed??? I live happily in a villa near Marbella with swimming pool, large gardens etc.etc. .....no worries.
But -and a big but - I'm not looking for work. We sold our businesses and other properties and retired early to enjoy life. Life is not enjoyable however if you are looking for work here, believe me, especially if you don't speak Spanish. If you find work, wage levels will be considerably lower than in the UK.
As Jo said, the country is beset by depression, only slightly and temporarily relieved by recent sporting triumphs. Unemployment is currently at 20% and could climb even higher as public sector cuts take effect. Market jitters could recur and force the yields on Spanish bonds to an unsustainable level. The construction sector has collapsed. So depression, about the economy at least, is a form of realism for the foreseeable future. There is also political uncertainty as the Zapatero Government lacks an overall majority and is dependent on regional parties for support and the Opposition Leader has not spoken in detail of any economic policies to kick-start the economy.
In the past, immigrants from the UK and elsewhere brought skills needed when Spain was slated to be the Florida of Europe. Brickies, plasterers, joiners and the superstructure that goes with property development - estate agents, lawyers, salespeople and so on. These skills are now largely superfluous.
Now the trend seems to be for IT specialists with varying types and levels of skills. Without checking, I can think of at least four posters working in this sector who say they intend coming to find work in Spain. Andy had something to say about this in an earlier post.
Of course not everyone who comes to Spain looking for work is unsuccessful and your chances depend hugely on where you decide to settle. But being 'depressed' is a sensible reaction to the current situation. I'suppose you could say I'm 'depressed' because interest rates at their current level are bringing a poor return on investments and also because sterling has fallen against the euro and could remain volatile. But if so, I'm 'depressed' in a very pleasant setting as are most posters on this forum who either have stable employment or are not looking for work for one reason or another.
Over the past year there have been very many posts on this board from would-be British immigrants hoping to find work in Spain. It would be interesting to learn how many of these plans came to fruition. I would estimate fewer than 20%. It would be interesting to have a more accurate view.
I've made my opinions clear about jobs for Spaniards, unless incomers are job creators and can add value to an economy in dire need of it.
If we told you that everything was wonderful here, jobs hanging from trees, fabulous salaries, a wonderful social security system we wouldn't be putting ourselves up to be accused of 'depression'. We would be waiting for the men in white jackets.


----------



## mrypg9

Incidentally, two nearby 'gentlemen's clubs' aka bordellos have closed recently. Times must be bad Until recently, 'Adult Relaxation' was a sound, profitable business.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, two nearby 'gentlemen's clubs' aka bordellos have closed recently. Times must be bad Until recently, 'Adult Relaxation' was a sound, profitable business.



One near us has recently closed down because they stopped giving "freebies" to the Guardia and the Guardia didnt like it.....!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## adelante

mrypg9 - the 'depressed' statement was perhaps, the wrong turn of phrase. Not meant to get anyone's backs up at all.

I am going to this with my eyes wide open, I know about issues facing the PIIGS (and the UK). I am not expecting to meet happy, happy Spanish people and expats enjoying life in the sun. I was in Spain last week, in Altea & Albir where I saw in estate agencies windows many properties for sale, some (but not many) reductions in price - but there was not the 'blood running in the streets' I'd imagined to gauge from that part of the Costa Blanca. There were many 'vendido' signs as well - however, who knows what they had to sell these places, and how long ago they sold etc etc??

The property market in Spain, obviously has an absolute glut of houses - many of which will never, ever sell. I don't know what Zapatero can do to kick start the economy? 

I am married with 2 kids - so have much to think about before making the move. I have decided on Alicante, as I have the same opinion as Maundler on this forum - that this area is good for a long term rent - we would not consider buying yet, as the market has much, much more to fall, IMO. Of course, this isn't at all a bad thing depending on what side of the fence you are on. 

The economy in the UK is going down the pan as well. With the new government we will see once again that Northern Unemployment is a fair price to pay for Southern prosperity- I don't want to be around to see that, as things will get 'tasty' here too.

I have some friends who live in Denia region, they say they would rather be poor and live on fruit in Spain than go back to Scotland. I can understand their point of view.


----------



## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> Who's depressed???


Resident depressive raises hand 


Well, I've been in Spain a year now, but reading these boards makes me realise I should praise myself lucky to have a stable income. Apparently many expats are in a less comfortable position. The irony is that while I am in the minority succesfully having made the move to Spain, I'd leave immediately if an offer from Turkey or Israel would come ; but then that's my economical lament: economical crisis and working permit laws make it very very hard. Well, guess Spain's not too bad while waiting for the moment I can go back eastward.

I still believe in the "he who wants to work, will find work" ; it's just a bit harder in some places than in some others. My first country as expat was Ireland, back then there were loads of Eastern Europeans and Asians coming to Ireland because places like Dublin had amongst the lowest unemployment rates in Europe and new business opportunities were countless. 6 years moved on, and now Ireland has serious unemployment issues, while some former East Bloc countries have vacancies enough, to the extent that I know of some folks I used to know in Ireland who now want to relocate to Poland, CZ or Hungary to find work ... And no doubt that in a few years new markets will boom, I already see many jobs being outsourced to India and other Asian countries, and I think this is just the beginning.

I do fear Europe faces bleak days economically, and the adventurous ones such as expats are maybe in that position that they can be lucky not to mind a new adventure regardless if it's in Asia or in some other newly booming economy. The good news is that economy often goes in waves, the tide turns and turns again. Economically good times and economically bad times have always come in turns...


----------



## Maundler

By the way, I just wanted to let you "all" know, those who are planning to relocate to Spain that you might want to search for jobs on international or british job search engines. I came accross a job offer in the international section of reed.co.uk for a job in Barcelona, the job salary for that specific role was 35,000 Euros a year, and I came across the same role in a job search engine from Spain (infojobs.net) and they offered 28,000 Euros a year. I was surprised to see that in Britain they offered 7,000 more than in the spanish website. I applied from Britain and I was shortlisted, while I did apply to on the spanish website and didn't even got an interview for that!! You can imagine my surprise... Anyway I didn't get the job because I didn't know catalan... but still.. to get shortlisted in Britain and don't get even a call in Spain kind of let me know that was my queue to search for something else...


----------



## mrypg9

adelante said:


> mrypg9 - the 'depressed' statement was perhaps, the wrong turn of phrase. Not meant to get anyone's backs up at all.
> 
> I am going to this with my eyes wide open, I know about issues facing the PIIGS (and the UK). I am not expecting to meet happy, happy Spanish people and expats enjoying life in the sun. I was in Spain last week, in Altea & Albir where I saw in estate agencies windows many properties for sale, some (but not many) reductions in price - but there was not the 'blood running in the streets' I'd imagined to gauge from that part of the Costa Blanca. There were many 'vendido' signs as well - however, who knows what they had to sell these places, and how long ago they sold etc etc??
> 
> The property market in Spain, obviously has an absolute glut of houses - many of which will never, ever sell. I don't know what Zapatero can do to kick start the economy?
> 
> I am married with 2 kids - so have much to think about before making the move. I have decided on Alicante, as I have the same opinion as Maundler on this forum - that this area is good for a long term rent - we would not consider buying yet, as the market has much, much more to fall, IMO. Of course, this isn't at all a bad thing depending on what side of the fence you are on.
> 
> The economy in the UK is going down the pan as well. With the new government we will see once again that Northern Unemployment is a fair price to pay for Southern prosperity- I don't want to be around to see that, as things will get 'tasty' here too.
> 
> I have some friends who live in Denia region, they say they would rather be poor and live on fruit in Spain than go back to Scotland. I can understand their point of view.


Adelante....worry ye not, you will never get my back up. I love good craich. My partner is from Glasgow.
I can understand your friend's point of view. Although Glasgow is the only city I can imagine living contentedly in the UK the weather does giove you serious pause for thought.....
And I agree with you about the UK economy. Double-dip recession, here we come. The last set of comparably healthy economic data should make serious people think again about Alistair Darling. It sure as hell wasn't the Coalition who gave the economy its boost in the last quarter of last year and first quarter of this.
You can certainly rent quite cheaply in some areas (not here though, sadly, and we're here because a) we like the area and b) my son has a house here.
Alicante is overwhelmingly British but some people like that.
If you can do well and help the Spanish economy get on its feet, good luck to you. 
I'm sure you'll understand my views about Spanish jobs for Spanish people, even if you don't agree with them.
As for Zapatero......I suppose he could take steps to reform the sclerotic labour market which is very inflexible. But at the end of the day he like me and no doubt you and many others on this board are at the mercy of the markets....now did I ever vote for the market to have such a stranglehold over our lives?????
Don't remember me or anyone else ever doing that


----------



## baldilocks

Quote " I am not expecting to meet happy, happy Spanish people"

It all depends where you go. In this village I would say that the majority of the Spaniards are quite happy. They are always warm, cheerful, friendly and a real pleasure to meet in the street, in the shops, in their (or other people's) homes.

This is, of course a village (a large one) and they have a much lower expectation from life. They don't expect to go out buying new things every day/week/month (a.k.a.retail therapy) they do as we always used to in UK - they make do and mend. Most of them have their huertas where they grow the majority of their fruit and veg needs. Later in the year there is the matanza when the pig(s) are slaughtered and morcilla, chorizo etc are made a put by for the rest of the winter and early spring. We don't have a huerta so many of our friends bring their surplus produce to us and we repay by making cakes and pastries, etc.

We (Mother-in-law, She who must be obeyed and myself plus one dog) live quite comfortably on my state pension. My couple of private and employment pensions which are quite small go towards buying various luxury items in UK plus paying for parts to recover a lot of work from the hard drive of a laptop that died at the weekend. How do we manage to live on less than 500€ - easily, we are not extravagant, we are not forever blowing money in the bars or on **** or other things we don't need - we no longer have the need to have the latest TV, car, stove, fridge freezer, dishwasher, tumble drier, etc. We have a TV that is about five year's old, our car is a 5year old Berlingo (capacious and economical), don't need a tumble drier (use the fresh air like Granny did). The women folk like to watch freesat, I prefer the PC. Our electricity is a 3.3kw rated supply so low standing charge, our rates (including water, sewage and basura) work out per year what we used to pay per month in UK. 

Are we happy? of course we are. No mortgage, we can save 250-300€ each month out of my pension. Our house (after some modifications) now has 5 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and two kitchens only cost us 85k or100k after taking in cost of mods. AND we still have room to put three more bedrooms and another bathroom in the attic.


----------



## adelante

@Maundler - thanks for the advice on reed.co.uk's international site, it's new to me - and now duly bookmarked ;-). 

@mrypg9 - It was well documented that during the heights of the economic crisis, Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling where the two who were the driving force for global policies to attempt to sort the mess out - the rest did not have a clue what to do. I do not agree with the hatchet job we are seeing in the UK press about Labour's tenure. History, I feel - will be kinder to them. History, I hope remembers the Liberal party's role in the current setup and how easily they have changed their views on many of their core policies to gain power. We're about to see massive social change in the UK. The overnight reversal of the Labour policy which as you said, has just delivered a good set of economic figures had nothing to do with the ConDem alliance. I fear we are now in freefall mode over here - just the start of a race to the bottom. 

I completely agree with you, I do not invest in the stock markets. I did not self-certify my mortgage etc etc. Now, we are being told we are in it together, we need to share the pain and so on. Why? If the global powers had reigned in the outlandish risks of the derivatives markets, Credit Default Swaps, Collaterised Debt Obligations and other baffling terms before we got to where we are today, I didn't directly get involved in any of this stuff??? The banks who were overstretched should have been allowed to fail - we would not be where we are today had this happened.

The weather in Glasgow is absolutely 'mince' to quote a local phrase. So much so, that after summer ending in May - we're started the 12th rainy season and the nights are drawing in. Don't get me wrong, the weather is not the number1 reason for moving, but the thought of sunnier skies and the almost endless visibility that you have Spain lifts my mood automatically. 

@Baldilocks - I am glad you have a great place to live for you. Spain is obviously as materialistic as anywhere in the west. But, you need to spend so much less on the 'pleasures' to get by there. You live to a degree of self suffiency, I see. I have an extended family in Tuscany, they live similarly. They grow their own veg, make their own wine and spirits (strong stuff LOL), and do without the latest 50 inch plasma TV or Oven, Microwave etc etc bought on credit as the simpler things give more pleasure. 

I tell you - I am a keen cyclist and hill walker. I'd spend close to zero in leisure time, as I would be outside when the weather permitted going as long and as fast as I can go on my road bike or walking in the mountains. The 'outside' life is what appeals to us greatly, as we are hemmed in by the elements here so much of the time. The evil weather gods which drive us to the indoor shopping centres and shops as the thought of going outside in the rain and dark is too much.

thanks for reading..


----------



## baldilocks

So Adelante
Are you just a part time expat? hoping to be a full-time expat? o ¿Qué?

A keen cyclist and hill walker - you would be a pig in sh*t here where there a lot of cycle (motor and pedal) routes and there is a 100km flog over mountains tracks and roads 2nd October. Will send you a PM link to the website


----------



## adelante

Espero ser un residente para siempre. Well - the idea is to find a job in Alicante region, move for a long rent with my wife and 2 kids - then see what happens. 

I am cyclist, an Alberto Contador wannabe LOL


----------



## baldilocks

adelante said:


> Espero ser un residente para siempre. Well - the idea is to find a job in Alicante region, move for a long rent with my wife and 2 kids - then see what happens.
> 
> I am cyclist, an Alberto Contador wannabe LOL


check your PMs


----------



## baldilocks

adelante said:


> Espero ser un residente para siempre. Well - the idea is to find a job in Alicante region, move for a long rent with my wife and 2 kids - then see what happens.
> 
> I am cyclist, an Alberto Contador wannabe LOL


go to 
Cicloturismo en la Sierra Sur de Jaén > Portada

some of the videos show parts of this village


----------



## mrypg9

@mrypg9 - It was well documented that during the heights of the economic crisis, Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling where the two who were the driving force for global policies to attempt to sort the mess out - the rest did not have a clue what to do. I do not agree with the hatchet job we are seeing in the UK press about Labour's tenure. History, I feel - will be kinder to them. History, I hope remembers the Liberal party's role in the current setup and how easily they have changed their views on many of their core policies to gain power. We're about to see massive social change in the UK. The overnight reversal of the Labour policy which as you said, has just delivered a good set of economic figures had nothing to do with the ConDem alliance. I fear we are now in freefall mode over here - just the start of a race to the bottom. 

I completely agree with you, I do not invest in the stock markets. I did not self-certify my mortgage etc etc. Now, we are being told we are in it together, we need to share the pain and so on. Why? If the global powers had reigned in the outlandish risks of the derivatives markets, Credit Default Swaps, Collaterised Debt Obligations and other baffling terms before we got to where we are today, I didn't directly get involved in any of this stuff??? The banks who were overstretched should have been allowed to fail - we would not be where we are today had this happened.

ADELANTE


Music to my ears. If you decide to settle anywhere near us, we could have some great discussions. Slightly disagree about allowing the banks to fail - the consequences would have been disastrous. I would have preferred to have seen the banks 100% temporarily nationalised as was the case in France and Norway some years back.
Our life now revolves around our much-loved Rhodesian Ridgeback, Our Little Azor.
We spend a lot of our time walking in the countryside near our house and we've found a 'holiday' place in the mountains to the north of Malaga as an alternative for all three of us when we need a change of scenery. Life is much less materialistic in our little area although I do not think that is true of Spaniards as a whole, or indeed of western people in general. Shopping centres are packed with Spanish people. We lived in Prague for three years and Czech society, both rural and urban, is increasingly materialistic.
And if 'materialism' means an easier life for people, especially women, what's not to like? IMO washing machines, fridges, freezers, vacuum cleaners etc. have contributed as much to women's liberation as political freedoms. It's easy to sneer at materialism when you enjoy, even vicariously, the advantages of a developed society. It's a question of balance, imo.
I notice you mention family in Tuscany...is your family originally from Italy, i.e. are you an Italian Glaswegian? If so, society owes you all a great debt...my favourite restaurant in the world is Sarti Fratelli in West Nile Street and Glasgow is one UK city where you can get a decent cup of coffee.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> @mrypg9 - It was well documented that during the heights of the economic crisis, Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling where the two who were the driving force for global policies to attempt to sort the mess out - the rest did not have a clue what to do. I do not agree with the hatchet job we are seeing in the UK press about Labour's tenure. History, I feel - will be kinder to them. History, I hope remembers the Liberal party's role in the current setup and how easily they have changed their views on many of their core policies to gain power. We're about to see massive social change in the UK. The overnight reversal of the Labour policy which as you said, has just delivered a good set of economic figures had nothing to do with the ConDem alliance. I fear we are now in freefall mode over here - just the start of a race to the bottom.
> 
> I completely agree with you, I do not invest in the stock markets. I did not self-certify my mortgage etc etc. Now, we are being told we are in it together, we need to share the pain and so on. Why? If the global powers had reigned in the outlandish risks of the derivatives markets, Credit Default Swaps, Collaterised Debt Obligations and other baffling terms before we got to where we are today, I didn't directly get involved in any of this stuff??? The banks who were overstretched should have been allowed to fail - we would not be where we are today had this happened.
> 
> ADELANTE
> 
> 
> Music to my ears. If you decide to settle anywhere near us, we could have some great discussions. Slightly disagree about allowing the banks to fail - the consequences would have been disastrous. I would have preferred to have seen the banks 100% temporarily nationalised as was the case in France and Norway some years back.
> Our life now revolves around our much-loved Rhodesian Ridgeback, Our Little Azor.
> We spend a lot of our time walking in the countryside near our house and we've found a 'holiday' place in the mountains to the north of Malaga as an alternative for all three of us when we need a change of scenery. Life is much less materialistic in our little area although I do not think that is true of Spaniards as a whole, or indeed of western people in general. Shopping centres are packed with Spanish people. We lived in Prague for three years and Czech society, both rural and urban, is increasingly materialistic.
> And if 'materialism' means an easier life for people, especially women, what's not to like? IMO washing machines, fridges, freezers, vacuum cleaners etc. have contributed as much to women's liberation as political freedoms. It's easy to sneer at materialism when you enjoy, even vicariously, the advantages of a developed society. It's a question of balance, imo.
> I notice you mention family in Tuscany...is your family originally from Italy, i.e. are you an Italian Glaswegian? If so, society owes you all a great debt...my favourite restaurant in the world is Sarti Fratelli in West Nile Street and Glasgow is one UK city where you can get a decent cup of coffee.


The Spaniards, *here*, are definitely not materialistic. They are content to live in much the same way that they always have, they make do and mend until something has absolutely no more use for them and then give it to a next door neighbour who will find some other use for it (I am using the central bar of an old TV aerial as the support for a young lemon tree). We wondered why there were no second-hand shops near here - the answer is the Spaniards never part with anything for the above reason. We have one of the newest cars here and it is 2005 and there are probably a lot fewer than a hundred vehicles around that are newer in a place with a population of just over 5000.


----------



## Maundler

I have to say that reading several posts and posts from this thread in particular has made me think about the situation in the UK.. This won't change a thing, since I am still applying for jobs in the UK and by the looks of it, it might not be that long since I land a job in the UK.. Still, I have to be honest, I didn't know about the economic situation in the UK was that BAD and that expectations around britons are even lower. Do you really think you are now on a freefall? I know many countries have made some changes to their economic crisis, I know how the crisis affected Germany, France and specially the UK (in Europe), but I thought the UK was on the rise and would be probably one of the first countries to come out of recession, and from what I read here (you are all more informed than me) is going from bad to worse.

I would be interested in knowing much more details of the situation in the UK. I can only speak about Spain, and I have to say I am really disappointed with the government here. So, can you please elaborate on the situation about the UK.

As for the situation in Spain, for those who think that Spain is in a better position than the UK, guess again. I said I was really disappointed with this government, because I try to be informed about some countries in the world, and I have to say it hit me by surprise that you think UK is on a free fall.

Here is MY OPINION on the crisis in Spain. When the economic crisis started, Spain was supposed to be (at the eyes of all spaniards) the only country with "strong" banks and "strong" economy. We had a construction-industry crisis, a lot of big construction companies (brick crisis) closed and obviously almost all small construction companies went broke too, so there were thousands of unfinished constructions (still are). The problem I think was that the spanish government had a "heads-up" on the economic crisis, still they did nothing, the only thing they did was to "brag" about how the spanish banks were the only ones who kept "strong" and didn't needed any kind of help from the government. The president (Zapatero) here was the first one to brag about this situation, and said that we were the only ones with a stable economy, MEANWHILE, the construction-crisis was hitting like it hadn't never before and people began to lose jobs like crazy. Zapatero and his cabinet were looking at the economic crisis from far away and selling the idea of Spain being "the best". 6 months later the economic crisis hit Spain, did Zapatero do anything on those 6 months? With a heads-up, he did nothing, well actually he did something, he started giving money away. Every tax contributor will get 400€ as a gift from the government (just future-popular-voting action), and installed the 2,500€ for every baby born in Spain. Still the economic crisis was hitting harder and the construction-crisis was even worse, and on top of that (obviously) unemployment was increasing considerably, and he still kept saying that we weren't on a crisis, we were just on a dis-acceleration of economy but nothing to worry about. Still he did nothing, well, he actually did something (again, some popular action to gain votes) he promised that all unemployed who had already consumed his/her unemployed government help will get 6 months more of unemployed help (500€), but economically-wise he did nothing. At the beginning of 2009 guess what happened, remember the 400€ he gave away as "GIFT" to all tax contributors? well he actually took them BACK!! 

At this point, the so-called STRONG spanish banks were collapsing and began to receive help from the government. The thing that disappointed me the most was that the media didn't cover all these news. While the government was giving huge economic helps to banks like "Santander, Caja Madrid, etc." the media would only focus on the unemployment and said nothing about their so-called strong banks. At this point Zapatero was telling all Spaniards that the crisis had arrived to Spain (on 2009!!!!!) when we were on a crisis from almost 2 years ago. Small banks and funds began to merge and other banks yet again, kept on receiving help from the government.

It wasn't until the Europpean Union demanded Zapatero to install some regulations that Zapatero did something. He was hand-tied and had to installed the recent regulations (the Europpean Union imposed) he just announced. Still the 2,500 € for baby help is OVER (it only lasted for 1 and half years), people here are not happy with the recent regulations, umemployment is on the roof and still climbing, we had about 2 months (May and June) where unemployment fell a bit, but that was because summer was around the corner and hotels, restaurants and different industries needed help, we have now the outcome of July and the unemployment is increasing... Chances are that if we are now at 21% of active population unemployed, we will get to 25% or even more, and I don't think Zapatero and his cabinet have a clue what they are doing. This is even more dangerous than taking the wrong decisions... 

What is your take on this??


----------



## Maundler

adelante said:


> I work in IT - I am in the UK right now, I am 35 and have about 15 years experience in the industry. I work in telecoms - in the field of document management/collaboration software (Microsoft SharePoint, Opentext Livelink, Oracle, SQL etc) .
> 
> The age old question, do I need to be in Spain to find a job - or can I fix something up here then make the move??
> 
> Thanks again - you are a ray of light in a forum beset by depression.


IT is always well regarded in Spain. And you can land a job here with a "good" salary most likely. The only problem might be landing a job specifically in Alicante. There is just a handful of companies in Alicante you could apply too. So, from where I see it you have 3 choices:

1. Try and search for companies in Alicante that might suit YOU and try to sell yourself to them. And being english might open a few doors (if your spanish is good enough)
2. You might want to consider Valencia (a bigger city) and just 100 km to Alicante.. There you can find a lot more companies who will be looking for an IT guy!  And still Valencia is still really nice and you can practice your spanish here! 
3. Apply to Barcelona or Madrid which are the most important cities, hence with headquarters of multinational companies always in need of people in IT and specially a good english.

As for landing a job from the UK, well its going to be a bit tougher, but if you are willing to fly to do a personal interview, I would guess it wouldn't be a problem.

Hope I was able to help..


----------



## nigele2

Maundler said:


> I have to say that reading several posts and posts from this thread in particular has made me think
> 
> What is your take on this??


Spot on Maundler. My UK business which serves the largest public and private orgs has seen a massive upturn in the last year. We work testing new multi million pound computer systems. If the UK future is so bleak why are they investing?

In Spain my Stepdaughter has been told to accept a reduction in pay and increased hours, or walk. After 18 months she still is only contract. She has no security. She is treated like a piece of s***. Yet a year ago she was the only one of 35 employees retained because she was the best. Much of my spanish family is unemployed or has no security of employment and to them 1400 per month sounds like a fortune they would bite your hand off for. Sadly supplementing income by growing vegetables on the balcony of a Torrejon flat is not much of an option. 

The thought that spaniards are living blissfully in poverty is a joke . As for the UK there is a new private sector confidence which yes could be derailed by global events but the UK has resources and connections worldwide. It has the potential to survive downturns. Spain does not. 

The construction industry cannot recover in Spain for years. The tourist industry needs new markets and a new image. Agriculture is close to bankrupt. Here in Asturias there is massive investment in port facilities (Gijon). It is foreign investment so that foreigners can export the raw materials cheap and process them in other parts of the world. As most modern ports it offers few jobs. Yet it is promoted as a spanish success.

And soon the spanish will vote PP because they have no choice. 

And how much longer is Germany going to bail them out? I give it 5 years. 

Just my humble opinion of course


----------



## baldilocks

The Spanish suffered because they copied the USA. 

Build, Build, build, - give out mortgages where the borrowers only pay off some of the interest and none of the capital so that the debt continues to increase - the rise in property prices will clear the enhanced debt when the property is sold.

BUT they couldn't sell all those properties, so banks foreclosed and took the unsold properties and took back the ones where people couldn't keep up the payments BUT the banks couldn't sell them either so you have banks short of cash assets but rich in worthless (well almost - they are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them and if nobody is willing to pay anything for them...) property.

Net result - a number of Spanish banks and building societies are struggling and merging to gain strength; plus a load of empty and deteriorating properties (many of them only partly completed). Some urbanisations with maybe several hundred properties have only about twenty or so occupied - they are like ghost towns!


----------



## mrypg9

I'm no expert on the Spanish economy but it seems the markets are concerned about Spain's long-term prospects for growth. The chief problem is the rigid labour market with its 'temporada' and permanent contract distinction. If you have an employee on a permanent contract it is almost impossible and in any case very expensive to terminate in a downturn. This inflexibility has serious knock-on effects: youth unemployment, insufficient skills training, a weak entrepreneurial ethos generally. The public sector is probably overblown as a percentage of overall economic activity.
As for banks: it is untrue that the sector as a whole is weak. There is an important distinction between the cajas some of which are in difficulties because of exposure to construction loans and the major banks which are amongst the strongest in the world. Santander has just completed a major acquisition of part of a UK bank. The Spanish Government has recently taken action to merge some of the weaker cajas but the problem is still a work in progress.
In spite of the negativity recent Spanish bond issues have sold well at reasonable yields.
IMO the big mistake was to rely too much on turning Spain into the Florida of Europe. Retirees and tourists fuelled the construction boom, true, but Spain does not on the whole attract high-net-worth individuals and like Ireland when the property bubble burst the knock-on effects were horrendous.
You criticise Zapatero for handouts but surely Plan E, to take one example, was a sound policy to deal with unemployment and to give value-added to communities.
As for the UK: many respected economists forecast a double-dip recession as a result of the Coalition Government's programme of drastic cuts in public spending. The Government estimates its policy will create an extra 100000 unemployed per annum for the next five years. It is hoped that the private sector and an increase in exports will take up this slack but the general view amongst employers' organisations seems to be that the private sector is not yet ready to meet these expectations. Bank lending to SMEs (small and medium enterprises) is low and the recent increase in the strength of sterling does not bode well for exports - our chief market is now the eurozone.
Recently issued figures show that the economy is beginning to pick up, thanks to the measures implemented by the last Government. Bank profits are increasing and it looks as if the taxpayer will get a good return from the investment in the bank bail out.
Time will tell how the UK economy will react to these cuts but the omens are not good.
I seem to remember you said you were Mexican: you will know much more than I about the crisis in the late 1990s which resulted in a major US -led bail-out of the Mexican economy. 
Most economists agree that the crisis was caused largely by the Government's implementation of US -inspired neo-con economic policies .
Zapatero may have made some poor decisions but it is unlikely that Spain will need the kind of international rescue effort needed by Mexico, Russia or Greece, all victims of right-wing Governments pursuing half-baked Hayekian neo-con economic policies. The current left-wing Government is cleaning upthe mess bequeathed it by the outgoing right-wing Government which lied and fiddled the books (aided by Goldmann Sachs) in order to qualify for entry to the euro zone.


----------



## Guest

baldilocks said:


> BUT the banks couldn't sell them either


This is because they didn´t try to sell them. They stuck their heads in the sand and pretended there wasn´t a problem. Even now when a couple of banks are starting to auction off some properties they are being greedy and unrealistic when it comes to valuations so still very little is selling


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Spot on Maundler. My UK business which serves the largest public and private orgs has seen a massive upturn in the last year. We work testing new multi million pound computer systems. If the UK future is so bleak why are they investing?
> 
> In Spain my Stepdaughter has been told to accept a reduction in pay and increased hours, or walk. After 18 months she still is only contract. She has no security. She is treated like a piece of s***. Yet a year ago she was the only one of 35 employees retained because she was the best. Much of my spanish family is unemployed or has no security of employment and to them 1400 per month sounds like a fortune they would bite your hand off for. Sadly supplementing income by growing vegetables on the balcony of a Torrejon flat is not much of an option.
> 
> The thought that spaniards are living blissfully in poverty is a joke . As for the UK there is a new private sector confidence which yes could be derailed by global events but the UK has resources and connections worldwide. It has the potential to survive downturns. Spain does not.
> 
> The construction industry cannot recover in Spain for years. The tourist industry needs new markets and a new image. Agriculture is close to bankrupt. Here in Asturias there is massive investment in port facilities (Gijon). It is foreign investment so that foreigners can export the raw materials cheap and process them in other parts of the world. As most modern ports it offers few jobs. Yet it is promoted as a spanish success.
> 
> And soon the spanish will vote PP because they have no choice.
> 
> And how much longer is Germany going to bail them out? I give it 5 years.
> 
> Just my humble opinion of course



Yes, the much-maligned Darling and Brown were not so clueless after all , it seems. Let's hope the Coalition cuts programme won't lead to the double-dip recession.
I'm not so sure you're right about the private sector - but then I only know what I read and you are hands-on, so to speak.
As for the PP - strong on criticism but vague on detailed policy.
The words 'frying pan, fire, out of ' etc...could be relevant here...


----------



## Maundler

nigele2 said:


> Spot on Maundler. My UK business which serves the largest public and private orgs has seen a massive upturn in the last year. We work testing new multi million pound computer systems. If the UK future is so bleak why are they investing?
> 
> In Spain my Stepdaughter has been told to accept a reduction in pay and increased hours, or walk. After 18 months she still is only contract. She has no security. She is treated like a piece of s***. Yet a year ago she was the only one of 35 employees retained because she was the best. Much of my spanish family is unemployed or has no security of employment and to them 1400 per month sounds like a fortune they would bite your hand off for. Sadly supplementing income by growing vegetables on the balcony of a Torrejon flat is not much of an option.
> 
> The thought that spaniards are living blissfully in poverty is a joke . As for the UK there is a new private sector confidence which yes could be derailed by global events but the UK has resources and connections worldwide. It has the potential to survive downturns. Spain does not.
> 
> The construction industry cannot recover in Spain for years. The tourist industry needs new markets and a new image. Agriculture is close to bankrupt. Here in Asturias there is massive investment in port facilities (Gijon). It is foreign investment so that foreigners can export the raw materials cheap and process them in other parts of the world. As most modern ports it offers few jobs. Yet it is promoted as a spanish success.
> 
> And soon the spanish will vote PP because they have no choice.
> 
> And how much longer is Germany going to bail them out? I give it 5 years.
> 
> Just my humble opinion of course


Right back at you!! Spot on! 

People right now are hanging on by a very thin thread. They "brag" about any tiny achievement and trying to get by.

How Much Longer is Germany going to bail them out? THIS IS A PERFECT QUESTION... I have always thought of that... to tell you the truth, if Spain wasn't a part of the Europpean Union and nobody would back them up, Spain would right now struggle like no other country and I would think Spain would be on a worst position than Greece is right now!! 

And yeah, next term PP is going to win elections and although I don't like Rajoy, PP has better economic policies, but to tell you the truth, I wouldn't want neither Zapatero nor Rajoy to rule this country... We will see how this pans out, but I am pessimistic about this! 



> The Spanish suffered because they copied the USA.
> 
> Build, Build, build, - give out mortgages where the borrowers only pay off some of the interest and none of the capital so that the debt continues to increase - the rise in property prices will clear the enhanced debt when the property is sold.
> 
> BUT they couldn't sell all those properties, so banks foreclosed and took the unsold properties and took back the ones where people couldn't keep up the payments BUT the banks couldn't sell them either so you have banks short of cash assets but rich in worthless (well almost - they are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them and if nobody is willing to pay anything for them...) property.
> 
> Net result - a number of Spanish banks and building societies are struggling and merging to gain strength; plus a load of empty and deteriorating properties (many of them only partly completed). Some urbanisations with maybe several hundred properties have only about twenty or so occupied - they are like ghost towns!


Yeah, Spain is struggling because they adapted their mortgages policies from the US. When I first arrived, I was amazed how you could get a mortgage with a minimum salary. I mean come on, my brother-in-law (spaniard) got into a mortgage of 170,000 € with a salary of 1,000 € a month!!! How can you give a guy a mortgage this high with such a low salary?? Only in Spain and the US!! and guess what? my brother-in-law is unemployed and unable to pay for his apartment.

The other problem was that construction companies started to build, build, build and prices starting to rise, but you have no idea how much!! We are talking about a 45sqm apartment in Barcelona for 170,000 €!!! an apartment in downtown valencia with 90sqm for over 350,000 €.. this is insane!!!! Right now prices are dropping, but still not at a normal price! I own my apartment in Valencia, I bought my apartment in 1999 for 45,000 €, in 2006 my apartment was worth 200,000 €... this is insane!! I was about to sell it, didn't cause my wife didn't want me too, but it was a really good opportunity which I lost now!

Banks are struggling with every guy in Spain who can't pay for their mortgages anymore and they can't sell those properties because they gave mortgages to people with very low income and for an apartment than realistically was worth a lot less!!! so they can't sell them cause they would be losing billions..

And we still have the unemployment issue, which I don't see a realistic-near-in-the-future solution... and it is only going to go worse....

Anyway!! expats wanting to come to Spain, don't be discouraged by our comments!!  There is still a lot of good things about Spain and if you land a good job it is always a good opportunity. But just beware!


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, the much-maligned Darling and Brown were not so clueless after all , it seems. Let's hope the Coalition cuts programme won't lead to the double-dip recession.
> I'm not so sure you're right about the private sector - but then I only know what I read and you are hands-on, so to speak.
> As for the PP - strong on criticism but vague on detailed policy.
> The words 'frying pan, fire, out of ' etc...could be relevant here...


and if the rest of the PP are as corrupt as they are locally (out of Plan E monies if you are a PP supporter, the road outside your house got done up, if you weren't you were left with potholes and, even worse the holes and cut off pieces of tubing where they took down the huge [at great expense] sign proclaiming how much Plan E money was being spent) Net result we have twenty metres done up road then a stretch of potholes, then a bit more done up... Sounds a bit like the tories back in UK, but then they ARE on the same side of the fence...


----------



## Guest

We see a different side to most people being involved in pr & marketing but we´ve seen a huge increase over the last 12 months of proper businesses (ie not a builder/plumber/dog walker/bar owner) looking to invest in Spain by opening shops, branches, franchises, etc. Now they may well be shortsighted and maybe it´s going to take a while for things to pickup and start rolling for them but from where we´re sat there is still a healthy external investment coming into the country so things aren´t as bleak as they can seem

All these new businesses are gradually going to start to employ people so we´re doing everything we can to encourage that. Only small fry I know but over the last couple of months I´ve managed to find proper contract work for three people so far (outside Gib) all with new companies that saw fit to open a branch in Spain. Spin offs from them is that we also "employ" a Spanish translator (our neighbour!), a Spanish graphic designer, a Spanish printer and a Spanish web designer when required - although note than none of them were hardly short of work anyway


----------



## baldilocks

deleted - duplicate


----------



## Maundler

mrypg9 said:


> I'm no expert on the Spanish economy but it seems the markets are concerned about Spain's long-term prospects for growth. The chief problem is the rigid labour market with its 'temporada' and permanent contract distinction. If you have an employee on a permanent contract it is almost impossible and in any case very expensive to terminate in a downturn. This inflexibility has serious knock-on effects: youth unemployment, insufficient skills training, a weak entrepreneurial ethos generally. The public sector is probably overblown as a percentage of overall economic activity.
> As for banks: it is untrue that the sector as a whole is weak. There is an important distinction between the cajas some of which are in difficulties because of exposure to construction loans and the major banks which are amongst the strongest in the world. Santander has just completed a major acquisition of part of a UK bank. The Spanish Government has recently taken action to merge some of the weaker cajas but the problem is still a work in progress.
> In spite of the negativity recent Spanish bond issues have sold well at reasonable yields.
> IMO the big mistake was to rely too much on turning Spain into the Florida of Europe. Retirees and tourists fuelled the construction boom, true, but Spain does not on the whole attract high-net-worth individuals and like Ireland when the property bubble burst the knock-on effects were horrendous.
> You criticise Zapatero for handouts but surely Plan E, to take one example, was a sound policy to deal with unemployment and to give value-added to communities.
> As for the UK: many respected economists forecast a double-dip recession as a result of the Coalition Government's programme of drastic cuts in public spending. The Government estimates its policy will create an extra 100000 unemployed per annum for the next five years. It is hoped that the private sector and an increase in exports will take up this slack but the general view amongst employers' organisations seems to be that the private sector is not yet ready to meet these expectations. Bank lending to SMEs (small and medium enterprises) is low and the recent increase in the strength of sterling does not bode well for exports - our chief market is now the eurozone.
> Recently issued figures show that the economy is beginning to pick up, thanks to the measures implemented by the last Government. Bank profits are increasing and it looks as if the taxpayer will get a good return from the investment in the bank bail out.
> Time will tell how the UK economy will react to these cuts but the omens are not good.
> I seem to remember you said you were Mexican: you will know much more than I about the crisis in the late 1990s which resulted in a major US -led bail-out of the Mexican economy.
> Most economists agree that the crisis was caused largely by the Government's implementation of US -inspired neo-con economic policies .
> Zapatero may have made some poor decisions but it is unlikely that Spain will need the kind of international rescue effort needed by Mexico, Russia or Greece, all victims of right-wing Governments pursuing half-baked Hayekian neo-con economic policies. The current left-wing Government is cleaning upthe mess bequeathed it by the outgoing right-wing Government which lied and fiddled the books (aided by Goldmann Sachs) in order to qualify for entry to the euro zone.


There are a lot of delicate subjects you are speaking off here... as I said, I won't comment on the UK situation as I am not FULLY aware, but aware of some.. I will speak of the Spanish situation and Mexican Situation...

Spanish government NOW are working on merging small "cajas" when they should have done something long ago, Caja Madrid was on a tough spot since 2007 when the crisis hit, Caja Sur and Andalucia were on REALLY tough spots for over a year and a half, these facts you are commenting too are well informed and they come one or two years later than they should have, hence no clue whatsoever from the economists and government in Spain. As for Santander, yeah, it is one of the best banks in the world, but you wouldn't know that it did received a huge amount of money from the Government in 2009 because they were having problems, yet Botin (CEO For Santander) has done some businesses that IF and only IF they turn out to be worthy and can report HUGE RETURN OF INVESTMENT, only then will Santander will be "saved" if not, we are talking about another bank with GREAT PROBLEMS.... He is investing just because the government gave him full authority instead of restraining his investments (which every government from US, Germany, UK did to their own banks who received help)... So, right now Santander might seem one of the best banks of the world, and if these businesses come to effect it might be one of the best of the world, but IF these decisions are the wrong ones (will know in about 2 year period) then Santander won't be the solid bank you think it is... 

Of course I remember the 90s crisis in Mexico and the consequences Mexico faced after that!! it was awful!! and our government was clueless how to go around it! 

But we are talking about a country (Spain) that has received money for decades from the European Union (mostly Germany) to get his act together, Spain has received far more money from countries like France and Germany to get his act together than Mexico received from US in that economic crisis. Spain became a part of the European Union being a country which received economic help to get this country running and eventually (Germany and France thought) to become a country which returned this investment in businesses, tourisms, exports, Agriculture and whatnot, and eventually to be a country which gave money to European countries which needed it (Call it Bulgaria, Rumania, Czeck, etc.) and it became that country, but just for a VERY LITTLE TIME, from 2006-2008 and then became a country AGAIN to receive aids from the Europpean Union. The ROI has been disastrous for Germany and France who were hoping Spain would help them 
recover part of this investment, to help them grow the European Union economically wise and this is yet to occur. And Germany knows it, why do you think Germany is soo worried about the situation of Spain? Because they have invested sooo much and hasn't received what they expected and are worried they are in need of more help yet again... The downturn in Spain is not only affecting Spain and Spaniards but Germans and Germany too, because of the expectations Germany had of Spain.

Anyway, coming back to Mexico. The comparison right now is that, when Spain started their democratic politics, when Franco died, he left a country in a very precarious situation. Spain was worse than Mexico on that time. Mexico had a stable economy and was "growing" but still had a lot of flaws in the government, call it corruption, drugs and whatnot. But it was on a very good position. Spain started receiving money from Germany and started the European Union, Germany or better call it, the European Union sent several consultants to Spain to make sure that the investments Germany and the European Union were doing went to infrastructures and making Spain grow. These consultants actually made sure of all this, they erradicated "little" corruption there was in Spain at the moment and help them grow every industry the European Union considered Spain would be good at, and they helped "UNCONDITIONALLY" (I write this word, because they were working on something that in the future would return the investment back to Germany, but still) from these countries and it did help. Spain began to grow at a rate nobody would have thought (well, some did) and this is the only reason why Spain is in the situation they are, because they got a lot of help and a European Union backing them up.

Mexico has never had this kind of help.. Do you think the US helped us? That wasn't help, that was taking advantage of the situation.. "they need money, we will give it to them but we will take advantage of their Gulf, their Oil Reffineries, etc." We got NAFTA, and let me tell you, this NAFTA only helps the US, it doesn't help Mexico, because every export, import and everything goes to the US. 
When NAFTA started, it was supposed to be a free-agreement between Canada, US and Mexico, the US came to Mexico with K-Mart, Wallmart and a lot of other companies wanting to open market in Mexico, and they did. But when the mexican chains wanted to open market in the US, they denied on grounds of "non-equity" policies. What I want you to realize is that, when Spain was receiving "unconditional" (probably not the word) help, Mexico has always been treated like a "dog" by the US. IF the US was "smart-enough" they would help us erradicate drugs and corruption (our most important problems), help us grow, help us with infrastructure, well, actually if the US would have INVESTED in Mexico, instead of taking advantage of us, we (I AM PRETTY SURE) would be a first world country and with a lot of power.. But instead of investing in Mexico and helping us, they have always taken advantage of us, unlike Germany did with Spain..

Just my opinion...


----------



## adelante

I have to say this is a cracking wee forum - their are a lot of good people on here. It's all a question of perspective I guess.

@mrypg9 - Indeed, this would make some conversation - the collapse (and hopeful rebirth) of the 'west'. There is a good little book called F.I.A.S.C.O by Dan Partnoy that I have a read a few times. It's about the first hand experiences of a derivatives trader, and how dangerous and unregulated they are. It's quite prescient with the collapse of the 'packaging' of subprime debt and where we are today. 

Regarding the banks - their simply should be no 'too big to fail'. I like Vince Cable, he has (or had) some revolutionary ideas about restructuring of the banking sector - I hope they radically change it. 

I agree with you 100% on the role of technological advancements to make life easier for people in general. I am not promoting a return to a more agarian society btw, I am against 'credit fuelled' materialism. People up to their eyes in it to have an expensive piece of tin on their driveway and so on. 

Yeah, the restaurant you are talking about is called 'Fratelli Sarti'. It's a nice place. Glasgow is a pretty cool city, there is no place like it in the UK. We just want a change, that is all. You sound like you have it pretty much 'sussed' out there in Spain - congratulations. 

@Maundler - Once again, you raise some interesting points. My point of view is only regarding Scotland. I would not live in the S.E of England, the price of housing and quality of life there is a barrier to entry for us there. I was in London on Tuesday, and read the London Evening Standard's property section - the prices are absolutely unreal for homes. - there is no way we could afford to move there.

Scotland, has a 'bloated' public sector. The new government has begun to openly wield the axe on the public sector up here. I have heard of many stories of people losing their jobs almost overnight. We are in a 'double whammy' situation in that we have no industry to speak of to fall back on. Construction is pretty much on it's knees up here. However the news reports talk of houses prices starting to rise again - which is good news? The UK cannot get over it's obsession with house prices. I worry for my kids being able to get a foot on the property ladder. Over here, we need a gradual decline in the value of property - whatever was wrong with the 3x salary model for affordable housing? This madness started with Thatcher and continues.

The idea in the UK is that when public sector workers lose their jobs, a strong public sector will re-employ them. I can see no evidence of this. The conservative model has always been a 'small' government, with the private sector doing most of the work. As we face rapid transition up here, I can imagine that we will see a return to mass unemployment, I hope this is not the case. I cannot see any huge hiring schemes going on up here, no massive projects kicking off - with the exception of the 2012 Olympics, which won't benefit us much.

One of the reasons we looked at Alicante was the year round availability of flights to and from Glasgow for easy visits. There is no connection to Valencia for us, is it easy to reach Valencia from Alicante? 

@Nigele - Sad to hear of the state of the play workwise - with your family over there. There are tough times all over right now. BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that Spaniards or Italians are happy in poverty. I was just drawing the conclusion that it's a more cultural thing in the Med, from my experience to enjoy growing their own food, making their own and so on. The Italians I know are not down at heel in anyway, they just enjoy a degree of self sufficiency.


----------



## jojo

adelante said:


> BTW, I don't think anyone is saying that Spaniards or Italians are happy in poverty. I was just drawing the conclusion that it's a more cultural thing in the Med, from my experience to enjoy growing their own food, making their own and so on. The Italians I know are not down at heel in anyway, they just enjoy a degree of self sufficiency.


I think that the Spanish and Italians in general are simply more resourceful and self reliant in times of poverty and hardship. They dont look to the state with hands open wide!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> I think that the Spanish and Italians in general are simply more resourceful and self reliant in times of poverty and hardship. They dont look to the state with hands open wide!
> 
> Jo xxx


because they can't - at least not to the same extent as in the UK


----------



## nigele2

xabiachica said:


> because they can't - at least not to the same extent as in the UK


Also many if not most Spaniards live in cities and need jobs like many people around the world. Growing beans is a great country pass time and a stitch in time might well save nine but neither pays a 300 Euro electricity bill


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I think that the Spanish and Italians in general are simply more resourceful and self reliant in times of poverty and hardship. They dont look to the state with hands open wide!
> JOJOXXX
> 
> No, they just put up with a lower standard of living! And have the occasional riot
> Even a neo-con Government needs a strong state. You need police and the riot squad to deal with the consequences of your policies!
> We need to look carefully at why so many people now rely on state aid in the UK. When did the welfare bill begin to take such a large proportion of our spending?
> The answer is clear to see in the independent figures from the Office of National Statistics and can be read in the House of Commons Library where they collate all this data for handy reference.
> The cost of welfare rose dramatically in the 80s and mid-nineties and continued down to the present day. Ironically, a Prime Minister who came to power pledging to get the state of people's backs and to cut public spending failed to achieve these objectives: more people on welfare and a higher proportion of public spending to GDP.
> North Sea oil revenues which should have been invested in new industries squandered on dole money......now we have a welfare-dependent underclass who should be in work...but are mainly concentrated in blighted rundown communities where jobs are scarce.
> The UK economy no longer has a solid manufacturing base. The financial sector which controls our lives contributes over 20% of the total tax take. The leisure industry (which imo should be in court charged with dumbing down the population) is the major growth area. A real candy floss economy....
> The whole welfare system needs reform and people should be in productive work. But if there are no jobs???
> Remember the wise words of Edmund Burke, the great philosopher of Conservatism:
> 'Government (aka the State) is a contrivance of human wisdom to satisfy human needs'.


----------



## xabiaxica

nigele2 said:


> Also many if not most Spaniards live in cities and need jobs like many people around the world. Growing beans is a great country pass time and a stitch in time might well save nine but neither pays a 300 Euro electricity bill


very true


----------



## mrypg9

A few thoughts, Maundler...

Germany contributed to the bailout for Greece because its banks had invested heaviliy in Greek bonds. UK banks are also exposed as are banks in other UK countries.
The PP.....I have been unable to discover exactly what their economic policies are.
Mexico: in 1994 the currency was devalued. US investors lost over $30 billion - Salomon Bros, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs main investors. Capital flight, massive job losses, inflation at 50% at one time, rising cost of bank loans and mortgages.....in short, disaster. 
So what was the cause? As I see it, more than a currency collapsed - it was an entire model of economic experiment which prior to the catastrophe had been held up as a model for other developing countries to emulate. The Washington-consensus based dogma of minimum government and free markets failed in Mexico as it did in New Zealand and the UK.
Fortunately this neo-con nonsense has been a very transient political project. It is faith-based just like that other failed messianic project, communism. Reality bit both of these ideologies. The US Government has had to come to terms with its failed project in Iraq. Reality is beginning to bite in Afghanistan too - after so much wasted human life.
I can't join in with the gloom and doom about Spain. Yes, things are bad....but boom and bust are a necessary and inbuilt feature of capitalism. There will be tough times ahead and there will be economic casualties but there will be a recovery. This past week there was another successful sale of Spanish treasury bonds.
The question is: what will be learnt from this crisis?
I fear...NADA.


----------



## nigele2

Help it's all gone wrong. Xabia help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> No, they just put up with a lower standard of living! And have the occasional riot
> Even a neo-con Government needs a strong state. You need police and the riot squad to deal with the consequences of your policies!
> We need to look carefully at why so many people now rely on state aid in the UK. When did the welfare bill begin to take such a large proportion of our spending?
> The answer is clear to see in the independent figures from the Office of National Statistics and can be read in the House of Commons Library where they collate all this data for handy reference.
> The cost of welfare rose dramatically in the 80s and mid-nineties and continued down to the present day. Ironically, a Prime Minister who came to power pledging to get the state of people's backs and to cut public spending failed to achieve these objectives: more people on welfare and a higher proportion of public spending to GDP.
> North Sea oil revenues which should have been invested in new industries squandered on dole money......now we have a welfare-dependent underclass who should be in work...but are mainly concentrated in blighted rundown communities where jobs are scarce.
> The UK economy no longer has a solid manufacturing base. The financial sector which controls our lives contributes over 20% of the total tax take. The leisure industry (which imo should be in court charged with dumbing down the population) is the major growth area. A real candy floss economy....
> The whole welfare system needs reform and people should be in productive work. But if there are no jobs???
> Remember the wise words of Edmund Burke, the great philosopher of Conservatism:
> 'Government (aka the State) is a contrivance of human wisdom to satisfy human needs'.


Mary I like a lot of that. You're a bit hard on the leisure industry - if the suckers buy it give it to them 

As for the loss of manufacturing I think that is down to the much bigger issue of a failing education system. We need more better qualified (and thus better paid teachers) and educational facilities offering education in not only basics but skills and the ability to think for yourself. And if that means education for all until 24 years of age and the ability to return to education at any age let it be so. 

The joy of learning is just lost to so many.

Is that a soap box appearing below my feet ??? Time for lunch and then the beach


----------



## Maundler

mrypg9 said:


> A few thoughts, Maundler...
> 
> Germany contributed to the bailout for Greece because its banks had invested heaviliy in Greek bonds. UK banks are also exposed as are banks in other UK countries.
> The PP.....I have been unable to discover exactly what their economic policies are.
> Mexico: in 1994 the currency was devalued. US investors lost over $30 billion - Salomon Bros, Fidelity, Goldman Sachs main investors. Capital flight, massive job losses, inflation at 50% at one time, rising cost of bank loans and mortgages.....in short, disaster.
> So what was the cause? As I see it, more than a currency collapsed - it was an entire model of economic experiment which prior to the catastrophe had been held up as a model for other developing countries to emulate. The Washington-consensus based dogma of minimum government and free markets failed in Mexico as it did in New Zealand and the UK.
> Fortunately this neo-con nonsense has been a very transient political project. It is faith-based just like that other failed messianic project, communism. Reality bit both of these ideologies. The US Government has had to come to terms with its failed project in Iraq. Reality is beginning to bite in Afghanistan too - after so much wasted human life.
> I can't join in with the gloom and doom about Spain. Yes, things are bad....but boom and bust are a necessary and inbuilt feature of capitalism. There will be tough times ahead and there will be economic casualties but there will be a recovery. This past week there was another successful sale of Spanish treasury bonds.
> The question is: what will be learnt from this crisis?
> I fear...NADA.


True, I think nothing will be learnt from this.. 

This was a nice assessment... are you just interested in economy? or did you have a degree in economy?

I have to say though, even though it is true that most markets lost millions in the 94 devaluation and crisis in Mexico. The fact still remains the same. By that time we had a president "Carlos Salinas de Gortari" who was supposed to be a "good" president and did some good things, but ultimately got carried away in copying a lot of regulations and the way the economy worked around at that time and Mexico wasn't prepared for that change, heck with all the internal problems Mexico had (and still has) it was just a matter of time the the whole thing wrecked, and so it happened. And still, we have had several bad experiences when dealing with the US. There was one president back in 1900s called Porfirio Diaz who said: "Too far away from god and to close to the United States".. There are a lot of good things that we get from the US, but we mostly get "scammed" by them. I don't know if you heard of the "Amero".. The amero was supposed to be a "euro-like-currency" between Canada, US and Mexico. and the same economic and political model as the European Union... It never came to develop, why? because even though it would have been a good opportunity, we had issues greater than the European Union, like mexican immigration in the US, corruption in Mexico, Canada felt the US would only benefit itself and wouldn't benefit them, Mexico thought that as well, and several other things. among several other things.

Anyway, coming back to Spain, I am sure that the country will recover, I don't doubt it for a second. But you have to admit that so far the decisions taken have been the "wrong ones" and although it will recover there is no sign of it yet! And to be honest, I don't see when these signs will present themselves, because if we have to trust the current cabinet, then we are screwed! 

Hopefully, we will see signs of these in the near future, but right now people are still losing jobs and some others are accepting cuts in salaries as we speak and the economy although there have been some changes there is no sign of actual recovery, funds can downturn again, and I expect they sadly will...  Let's just hope I am wrong..

All in all, I still live in Valencia and I am doing fine, have a good job with a "low" salary and I would like to actually invest some of my money, but with my salary is practically impossible to even SAVE money..


----------



## Maundler

By the way.. ADELANTE... There is a direct train and direct BUS from Valencia to Alicante, and you can do it in about an hour and a half... on train a one-way ticket is about 29 € and if you buy a round-ticket it might be cheaper.. and the bus is around 20€ one way and about 30-33€ round.. So it is not that expensive.. hope this helps..


----------



## Caz.I

Fascinating stuff, really enjoying this thread - this forum is an education sometimes! And you've all given the OP a lot of food for thought - if her mind is not totally boggled by now!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> Fascinating stuff, really enjoying this thread - this forum is an education sometimes! And you've all given the OP a lot of food for thought - if her mind is not totally boggled by now!


Agree!!
Unfortunately I haven't got time to contribute as I'm packing for the windswept beaches of my "beloved" Weston Super ... and have managed to squeeze in a pool/ bar stop. I can't stop and think about serious contributions ATM. 
Oh the joys of the UK, but that's another thread, isn't it?


----------



## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> of my "beloved" Weston Super ... and


you taking the proverbial by any chance Pesky 

Only thing I can remember about Weston was being sand blasted on the beach


----------



## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> Only thing I can remember about Weston was being sand blasted on the beach


Exactly, it's the only thing to remember.
Must finish packing, but the forum is far more interesting


----------



## mrypg9

Maundler said:


> True, I think nothing will be learnt from this..
> 
> This was a nice assessment... are you just interested in economy? or did you have a degree in economy?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> No, no degree in economics -got degrees in German and French and European Literature but have always 'meddled' in politics.
> I read a lot now and since I've stepped back from active involvement in politics I've taken a longer view and my views have changed quite a bit..
> The fact is that no-one can make cast-iron predictions about the economy of any country. Economics isn't a science - how can it be when it depends on human actions and motivations which are so often so irrational??? So there can be no 'laws' of economics, just repeated events and ingrained habits. That's how I see it anyway.
> When I lived in London we used to get to meet quite a few senior politicians and what terrified me was the dawning realisation that they are just.......human, like the rest of us. And being human, prone to errors of judgment and being swayed by emotion not reason.
> To think I once stood near a man who could press the nuclear button......an ordinary man, with all the faults and foibles we all have. No wonder our countries are so often run so incompetently. Geniuses are rare....


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I like a lot of that. You're a bit hard on the leisure industry - if the suckers buy it give it to them
> 
> As for the loss of manufacturing I think that is down to the much bigger issue of a failing education system. We need more better qualified (and thus better paid teachers) and educational facilities offering education in not only basics but skills and the ability to think for yourself. And if that means education for all until 24 years of age and the ability to return to education at any age let it be so.
> 
> The joy of learning is just lost to so many.
> 
> Is that a soap box appearing below my feet ??? Time for lunch and then the beach


Hopefully you'll return from your siesta refreshed and ready to post again, Nigel!!
I agree with you 100% about our failing education system. I used to monitor newly-qualified teachers and I was often appalled at the standards of some of these supposedly educated would-be educators. But that's why I've got it in for some sections of the leisure industry. There's a general dumbing-down in society, it seems to me. Crude, sensationalist tabloid newspapers, violent computer games and unbelievably mindless drivel on 99% of the hundreds of channels on my tv. TV 'celebrities' who mangle the English language.... no wonder so many people are functionally illiterate and innumerate. 
I agree there's a need to educate more people in science and technology. More apprenticeships needed too. My OH had four apprentices in the workshops but that was almost unique in our town. I'm not sure you can put the blame for the decline in manufacturing solely on education although it's played a major role. Governments have to invest and direct where needed...look at the role German, Japanese and Chinese Governments have played in restructuring their industries.
I'm sorry I didn't respond to your balloon debate posts Nigel but we've got involved in this dog refuge so I've got less time than I used to...


----------



## adelante

Maundler said:


> By the way.. ADELANTE... There is a direct train and direct BUS from Valencia to Alicante, and you can do it in about an hour and a half... on train a one-way ticket is about 29 € and if you buy a round-ticket it might be cheaper.. and the bus is around 20€ one way and about 30-33€ round.. So it is not that expensive.. hope this helps..


Maundler - thanks for this it is helpful. Not such a expensive trip then it seems. Perhaps another factfinding trip will be needed soon *fires up ryanair site*


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Hopefully you'll return from your siesta refreshed and ready to post again, Nigel!!
> I agree with you 100% about our failing education system. I used to monitor newly-qualified teachers and I was often appalled at the standards of some of these supposedly educated would-be educators. But that's why I've got it in for some sections of the leisure industry. There's a general dumbing-down in society, it seems to me. Crude, sensationalist tabloid newspapers, violent computer games and unbelievably mindless drivel on 99% of the hundreds of channels on my tv. TV 'celebrities' who mangle the English language.... no wonder so many people are functionally illiterate and innumerate.
> I agree there's a need to educate more people in science and technology. More apprenticeships needed too. My OH had four apprentices in the workshops but that was almost unique in our town. I'm not sure you can put the blame for the decline in manufacturing solely on education although it's played a major role. Governments have to invest and direct where needed...look at the role German, Japanese and Chinese Governments have played in restructuring their industries.
> I'm sorry I didn't respond to your balloon debate posts Nigel but we've got involved in this dog refuge so I've got less time than I used to...


Mary what you’re doing for our animal friends is far more important. Caring for a so called dumb animal demonstrates so many good aspects of life. 

On education yes apprentiships and so much more. I find the imagination of the education system so limiting. Everyone has something to offer. Find it, nurture it. Make people feel worthwhile and we will perhaps have less problems in society.

One good thing in the UK is that now the uni's treat the students as customers. They try to attract them. The course mixes are expanding. And many are accepting the challenge of delivering more on reduced funding. 

Just on UNI administrative IT systems the waste I have seen in the past makes you want to cry.

And as for TV if I see my niece watching that cartoon sponge one more time I'll throw the TV out the window. What absolute repetitive drivel 

I feel better now getting that off the chest. Tonight the local bagpipe band march the streets and tomorrow the bagpipe festival proper. Just one overseas band from Brittany. But Galicia and Asturias represented as always with 5 bands in all. Sadly no brits. Sign of the financial times.

Enjoy your weekend one and all, Nigel


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary what you’re doing for our animal friends is far more important. Caring for a so called dumb animal demonstrates so many good aspects of life.
> 
> 
> 
> Nigel ..I spent most of my life trying to help dumb human animals mainly unsuccessfully..
> At least the canine sort show you some affection in return.
> Enjoy your weeekend too, niceguy


----------



## Grahamnjones1

I am currently planning a permanent move to Benidorm. As of now I will arrive on 20-21/07/10 I have an appartment sorted and enough money to last me appoximatly 3 months, however, this is not for a holiday, but my chance to do something I have always wanted. I am looking for work as of my arrival date and would be thankfull for any help. I am nearly 40yrs old, reliable, trustworthy, hard working and a quick study. I realise that I will have to start from the bottom up, which is not a problem and I am willing to work as hard as necessary for the right person to accomplish this. Although I do not have a particular trade, I am computer literate, have o levels in maths and english, several lower educational qualifications, and a B,S.I.A. City and Guilds in security. I am not looking for miracles or an easy way to do it. All I ask is the chance to live my dream. All suggestions/comments welcome please


----------



## baldilocks

Grahamnjones1 said:


> I am currently planning a permanent move to Benidorm. As of now I will arrive on 20-21/07/10 I have an appartment sorted and enough money to last me appoximatly 3 months, however, this is not for a holiday, but my chance to do something I have always wanted. I am looking for work as of my arrival date and would be thankfull for any help. I am nearly 40yrs old, reliable, trustworthy, hard working and a quick study. I realise that I will have to start from the bottom up, which is not a problem and I am willing to work as hard as necessary for the right person to accomplish this. Although I do not have a particular trade, I am computer literate, have o levels in maths and english, several lower educational qualifications, and a B,S.I.A. City and Guilds in security. I am not looking for miracles or an easy way to do it. All I ask is the chance to live my dream. All suggestions/comments welcome please


Bora da Graham. For anyone on here to be able to help, you need to tell us as much as you can. for example, Can you speak Spanish? if so to what level?

Do you realise that the most likely work you will find may be rather menial, and may well be in a bar or restaurant and that the job may well disappear after the season quietens down and the majority of the British tourists go (i.e. schools go back)? I'm not trying to deter you from trying, I'm just trying to get you to realise that in terms of fulfilling a dream, it may well turn out to be a nightmare.


----------



## jojo

Grahamnjones1 said:


> I am currently planning a permanent move to Benidorm. As of now I will arrive on 20-21/07/10 I have an appartment sorted and enough money to last me appoximatly 3 months, however, this is not for a holiday, but my chance to do something I have always wanted. I am looking for work as of my arrival date and would be thankfull for any help. I am nearly 40yrs old, reliable, trustworthy, hard working and a quick study. I realise that I will have to start from the bottom up, which is not a problem and I am willing to work as hard as necessary for the right person to accomplish this. Although I do not have a particular trade, I am computer literate, have o levels in maths and english, several lower educational qualifications, and a B,S.I.A. City and Guilds in security. I am not looking for miracles or an easy way to do it. All I ask is the chance to live my dream. All suggestions/comments welcome please


You really need to speak and write Spanish fluently, even if its just to ask if there are any jobs, fill out an application form or go for an interview. There are few jobs in Spain at the moment. But hey, good luck with your venture. Any questions then maybe we can help

jo xxx


----------



## Grahamnjones1

jojo said:


> You really need to speak and write Spanish fluently, even if its just to ask if there are any jobs, fill out an application form or go for an interview. There are few jobs in Spain at the moment. But hey, good luck with your venture. Any questions then maybe we can help
> 
> jo xxx


Cheers Jo, but I don't give up that easily lol xxx


----------



## mrypg9

Grahamnjones1 said:


> Cheers Jo, but I don't give up that easily lol xxx


Neither do the millions of Spaniards and British and other immigrants looking for work.
But good luck.....

Have just reread your post...you put the words 'Benidorm' and 'dream' in close proximity. 
Do you know Benidorm well? It's like Blackpool on heat. Very popular, though.
Why do you think living in Spain will be a 'dream'? It always intrigues me when I read that.
If you just want to leave the UK you may be luckier on the job front in somewhere like the Czech Republic. 
Loads of people with no specific trades or skills manage to find work and if all else fails they can teach English.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Loads of people with no specific trades or skills manage to find work and if all else fails *they can teach English*.


Oh no they can't!!! One of the problems in Spain is people take the attitude "I can speak English so I can always teach it" Then my wife and mother-in-law spend ages banging their heads against a brick wall trying to remedy the disastrous results. It is the same with translation and interpretation - always use somebody who is qualified to do what you are expecting them to do no matter whether it is teaching, translating or interpreting - you wouldn't use somebody who is a complete amateur with no knowledge of the rules to wire your house and connect your electrics, or work on your car so why do so when it comes to languages?


----------



## lynn

baldilocks said:


> Oh no they can't!!! One of the problems in Spain is people take the attitude "I can speak English so I can always teach it" Then my wife and mother-in-law spend ages banging their heads against a brick wall trying to remedy the disastrous results. It is the same with translation and interpretation - always use somebody who is qualified to do what you are expecting them to do no matter whether it is teaching, translating or interpreting - you wouldn't use somebody who is a complete amateur with no knowledge of the rules to wire your house and connect your electrics, or work on your car so why do so when it comes to languages?


I believe Mary was referring to the experience she found in the Czech Republic where there were more opportunities to earn a living teaching English for those with no specific work skills, and that the poster might therefore find that country a better bet than Spain...


----------



## jojo

Have a look thru this Graham, there maybe some ideas Recruitment | Situations vacant | myservicesdirectory.com | surinenglish.com

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Oh no they can't!!! One of the problems in Spain is people take the attitude "I can speak English so I can always teach it" Then my wife and mother-in-law spend ages banging their heads against a brick wall trying to remedy the disastrous results. It is the same with translation and interpretation - always use somebody who is qualified to do what you are expecting them to do no matter whether it is teaching, translating or interpreting - you wouldn't use somebody who is a complete amateur with no knowledge of the rules to wire your house and connect your electrics, or work on your car so why do so when it comes to languages?


 But they do!!! We have to come to terms with reality. Teaching English is what many young British immigrants do all over the world. Prague is full of them. Some have TEFL or ESOL qualifications but many of those are of a poor standard. Search the net - there are many agencies offering English teaching jobs to poorly or even non qualified people in countries from Israel to Spain to China.
You should learn to recognise irony/sarcasm. I am well aware that few of these people are qualified to teach and that many are barely articulate let alone literate.
But the fact is ....they get work as English teachers, no matter what you or I may think.
I have a BA Honours and higher degree in German and French as well as a PGCE and for years ran my own interpreting/translating agency so I am well aware of the need for professionalism in this field. I've interpreted/ translated for top UK and European companies as well as for lawyers, research institutes etc. That's why I was constantly plagued to work teaching English in Prague, although I had retired early and didn't want to work!. I turned down nearly all the offers but was tempted by an opportunity to work with top Civil Servants in the Czech Office of National Statistics (CSU). Incidentally, they had all gained the highest qualifications in English, all had Doctorates in various fields but could barely speak the language as their teaching, although delivered by highly-qualified people, had been out-of-date and too grammar-focused.
The sad fact is that many young and older British immigrants who can find no other work turn to 'English teaching'. 
And although I most certainly wouldn't employ anyone unqualified to do any job ........many do.
Often with disastrous consequences which, unlike imperfect English useage, cannot be relatively simply rectified.


----------



## mrypg9

lynn said:


> I believe Mary was referring to the experience she found in the Czech Republic where there were more opportunities to earn a living teaching English for those with no specific work skills, and that the poster might therefore find that country a better bet than Spain...


Quite, Lynn.
You obviously recognise sarcasm when you encounter it...


----------



## valencia-hombre

steph28 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My boyfriend and I would love to move to Spain but having sat for the past couple of hours reading through posts on this forum I am beginning to wonder if this is an unrealistic option for us. I have recently graduated in Spanish and French so would class myself as fluent.


i have spoken to many people who have degrees in spanish and come to spain and are lost. the spanish speak very bad spanish and use an awful lot of slang and bad pronunciation.

for example you will often hear spanish and latins say what sounds like do when they mean dos

even with fluent spanish most spanish businesses will only employ spanish people, thats how it is in spain. take a look in a mercadona a spanish national supermarket chain and you will see _practically_ no non spanish employees.

sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you, but after years of living in spain i am just being realistic.

i would say save at least enough to survive 6 months plus sufficient to return home


----------



## Xose

valencia-hombre said:


> i have spoken to many people who have degrees in spanish and come to spain and are lost. the spanish speak very bad spanish and use an awful lot of slang and bad pronunciation.
> 
> for example you will often hear spanish and latins say what sounds like do when they mean dos


Is it though?! Yeah, that's well true innit?!

One develops an ear for these things after the first 30 years or so. So that "no pasa na" sounds the same as "no pasa nada" - "Tranqui nano" is the same as "Traquilo hombre" - etc., at the speed of thought.

As my mate Mariano used say to me after decades in London - "Whichi wanchi mait", "takes bloody time init?". - which means, "What do you want mate, takes time doesn't it?!"..... referring to learning a language at a certain age. As for getting to street speak.... forget about it!


----------



## baldilocks

In this village it is normal for the locals to drop the final consonant(s) and you either go with the flow and be understood by all the locals or try to maintain what you perceive is correct Spanish, only to find that many locals don't know what you are saying. For example if you refer to "Lidl" they don't know where you mean until the penny/centimo drops and you'll get "Ah, Li" so I just go around the village when I am taking the dog for a walk with "Bueno día" or "Adio"

If you want really good Spanish, you will have to go to one of the former colonies such as Colombia, just as if you want really good English you have to go to Inverness!


----------



## valencia-hombre

Xose said:


> Is it though?! Yeah, that's well true innit?!
> 
> One develops an ear for these things after the first 30 years or so. So that "no pasa na" sounds the same as "no pasa nada" - "Tranqui nano" is the same as "Traquilo hombre" - etc., at the speed of thought.
> 
> As my mate Mariano used say to me after decades in London - "Whichi wanchi mait", "takes bloody time init?". - which means, "What do you want mate, takes time doesn't it?!"..... referring to learning a language at a certain age. As for getting to street speak.... forget about it!


the first time someone asked me "como andamos ??" i thought what ?? whats this guy talking about hehehe and in valencia they mix catalan and caastellano in the same sentence


----------



## xabiaxica

valencia-hombre said:


> the first time someone asked me "como andamos ??" i thought what ?? whats this guy talking about hehehe and in valencia they mix catalan and caastellano in the same sentence


no they don't 

it's_ Valenciano_ & Castellano


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> no they don't
> 
> it's_ Valenciano_ & Castellano


and here, you get a mix of Castellano and Castillero. 

All these linguistic mixtures are the consequences of isolationism in the past caused by poor physical communication. You used to find it much more in UK where one county would speak a different language to the next.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> and here, you get a mix of Castellano and Castillero.
> 
> All these linguistic mixtures are the consequences of isolationism in the past caused by poor physical communication. You used to find it much more in UK where one county would speak a different language to the next.


or at least it would sound that way


I remember as a teen going to visit a friends Gran in a nearby small village

I couldn't understand a word she said!!

here, if you just go to nearby Gata they speak their own version of Valenciano - local Xabians can't understand them!!


----------



## valencia-hombre

xabiachica said:


> no they don't
> 
> it's_ Valenciano_ & Castellano


if you check valenciano doesnt exist as a language, the language is catalan and valenciano is a dialecto of it. and in valencia many many people start the sentence bon dia and continue in castellano, maybe not in jativa, its the same in galicia.. most galicians say cousas not cosas when they speak castellano


----------



## xabiaxica

valencia-hombre said:


> if you check valenciano doesnt exist as a language, the language is catalan and valenciano is a dialecto of it. and in valencia many many people start the sentence bon dia and continue in castellano, maybe not in jativa, its the same in galicia.. most galicians say cousas not cosas when they speak castellano


yes I know it's not officially a language - but when you live here long enough & your kids go to school here & speak it you eventually accept it


to me there are enough differences to catalan to make it separate


----------



## Pesky Wesky

valencia-hombre said:


> i have spoken to many people who have degrees in spanish and come to spain and are lost. the spanish speak very bad spanish and use an awful lot of slang and bad pronunciation.
> 
> for example you will often hear spanish and latins say what sounds like do when they mean dos
> 
> even with fluent spanish most spanish businesses will only employ spanish people, thats how it is in spain. take a look in a mercadona a spanish national supermarket chain and you will see _practically_ no non spanish employees.
> 
> sorry to be the bearer of bad news for you, but after years of living in spain i am just being realistic.
> 
> i would say save at least enough to survive 6 months plus sufficient to return home


I agree that the Spanish taught in schools or in courses in general, although correct, might not reflect what you hear in Spain itself. For example, not everybody says _*Hola*_ or _*Buenas tarde*_*s*. You might hear ¿Qué pasa? (What's up?) or ¿Qué tal hombre? (How are you mate?) as a greeting, much as in the UK you wouldn't expect every one to say _*Hi*_ or _*Good Afternoon*_. My family in the UK all say _*allright?*_ as a greeting. It's not bad Spanish or English, it's what's used. If it's used and other people understand it, it's communication whether it's standard or not. Likewise, pronunciation isn't bad, it's regional. 

I would question what you say about no non Spanish people being employed. Perhaps it depends on where you are in Spain, but here there are many South Americans, Romanians, Polish... working in supermarkets, bars and other places. The thing is they speak Spanish... And that's the secret IMO. 



valencia-hombre said:


> the first time someone asked me "como andamos ??" i thought what ?? whats this guy talking about hehehe and in valencia they mix catalan and caastellano in the same sentence


*Como andamos* is perfectly acceptable Spanish. Again you might not have been taught it on a beginners course to Spanish, but it's a widely used expression


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree that the Spanish taught in schools or in courses in general, although correct, might not reflect what you hear in Spain itself. For example, not everybody says _*Hola*_ or _*Buenas tarde*_*s*. You might hear ¿Qué pasa? (What's up?) or ¿Qué tal hombre? (How are you mate?) as a greeting, much as in the UK you wouldn't expect every one to say _*Hi*_ or _*Good Afternoon*_. My family in the UK all say _*allright?*_ as a greeting. It's not bad Spanish or English, it's what's used. If it's used and other people understand it, it's communication whether it's standard or not. Likewise, pronunciation isn't bad, it's regional.
> 
> I would question what you say about no non Spanish people being employed. Perhaps it depends on where you are in Spain, but here there are many South Americans, Romanians, Polish... working in supermarkets, bars and other places. The thing is they speak Spanish... And that's the secret IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> *Como andamos* is perfectly acceptable Spanish. Again you might not have been taught it on a beginners course to Spanish, but it's a widely used expression


yep - I hear it all the time

and it's pure street Spanish!!


the Castellano brand


----------



## valencia-hombre

i once in an english forum saw a message "spanish children are so intelligent compared to english, all the english children say all the time is "you know"... the author obviously doesnt know the verb saber


----------



## Tallulah

valencia-hombre said:


> if you check valenciano doesnt exist as a language, the language is catalan and valenciano is a dialecto of it. and in valencia many many people start the sentence bon dia and continue in castellano, maybe not in jativa, its the same in galicia.. most galicians say cousas not cosas when they speak castellano


They say "cousas" cando falan Galego .... and "cosas" cuando hablan Castellano. Lembra ben! It's a different language.


----------



## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> They say "cousas" cando falan Galego .... and "cosas" cuando hablan Castellano. Lembra ben! It's a different language.


Galego seems VERY different - are there many similarities with Castellano? I don't have too many problems with understanding or reading Valenciano although I doubt I'll ever speak it - more due to lack of motivation on my part than anything else

one new language at my age will do thanks!!

the scary thing is I understood the Galego & think I would have even without the Spanish there!!



They say "cousas" when they speak Galego .... and "cosas" when they speak Castellano. _ Remember well_???!


----------



## valencia-hombre

ShinyAndy said:


> The job should go to the person thats most qualified/suitable for the role, regardless of where they were born


thats enough to pee yourself with laughter after living a few years in spain. i would say to anyone, the places to look are non spanish companies, for example the supermarkets carrefour, lidl, aldi, media markt, all employ many more europeans than the spanish companies. 

if you seach in spanish free ads sites with job vacanices, flats or rooms to rent the words abstnerse extanjeros (to the spanish eruopeans are foreigners also) appear frequently . stay away foreigners. even on posters that people leave at locutorios and places they frequently say "chica only", "solo españoles", there was an article about it in one of the newspapers some times ago, saying it was ilegal, but its pointless complaining as the police and judges are just as racist.


----------



## valencia-hombre

Tallulah said:


> They say "cousas" cando falan Galego .... and "cosas" cuando hablan Castellano. Lembra ben! It's a different language.


perhaps it depends who you talk to. a friend of mine gallego always pronounces it like the gallego word, his mother, father, grandmother also.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

valencia-hombre said:


> thats enough to pee yourself with laughter after living a few years in spain. i would say to anyone, the places to look are non spanish companies, for example the supermarkets carrefour, lidl, aldi, media markt, all employ many more europeans than the spanish companies.
> 
> if you seach in spanish free ads sites with job vacanices, flats or rooms to rent the words abstnerse extanjeros (to the spanish eruopeans are foreigners also) appear frequently . stay away foreigners. even on posters that people leave at locutorios and places they frequently say "chica only", "solo españoles", there was an article about it in one of the newspapers some times ago, saying it was ilegal, but its pointless complaining as the police and judges are just as racist.


Hmmm,
most of your comments about Spain are negative, aren't they? But you've been here for a few years. Anything good to say about the place, or is it time for you to be moving on? Just curious


----------



## xabiaxica

valencia-hombre said:


> perhaps it depends who you talk to. a friend of mine gallego always pronounces it like the gallego word, his mother, father, grandmother also.


well Tallulah lives there & is married into a gallego family.............


I dare say she hears more of the language spoken than you do


not to say your friend & his family don't mix it up a bit though.............


----------



## Pesky Wesky

valencia-hombre said:


> in valencia they mix catalan and caastellano in the same sentence


When I was in Catalonia I often had conversations with people that started in Castellano and ended up in Catalan and then of course the conversation ended 'cos I don't speak Catalan. I have also, whilst on holiday in smaller Catalan towns, met people who could barely hold a conversation in Castellano. These were people in shops and restaurants, people who have contact with the public. I thought it was a little worrying...
Don't know about Galicia though
As for mixing languages, I think Brits who speak Spanish are the kings of Spanglish... 
I have to go and do the alta for autónomos.
Let's go and have a tinto in the plaza in the pueblo
Venga, I'm waiting!
He's un pesado


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> When I was in Catalonia I often had conversations with people that started in Castellano and ended up in Catalan and then of course the conversation ended 'cos I don't speak Catalan. I have also, whilst on holiday in smaller Catalan towns, met people who could barely hold a conversation in Castellano. These were people in shops and restaurants, people who have contact with the public. I thought it was a little worrying...
> Don't know about Galicia though
> As for mixing languages, I think Brits who speak Spanish are the kings of Spanglish...
> I have to go and do the alta for autónomos.
> Let's go and have a tinto in the plaza in the pueblo
> Venga, I'm waiting!
> He's un pesado


I do that all the time!!

so do my kids


sometimes we're so used to using the Spanish word for something that the English word has become 'buried' & we just can't grasp for it!!

my kids, who as you know have been here at least half their lives often won't know the English word in the first place - I don't mean simple things that you might use every day - odd words that don't come into conversation regularly


for example yesterday the 14 yr old asked what 'tarifa' was in English - I can't remember the last time I said 'tariff' (I even just spelt it wrong)


----------



## Tallulah

xabiachica said:


> Galego seems VERY different - are there many similarities with Castellano? I don't have too many problems with understanding or reading Valenciano although I doubt I'll ever speak it - more due to lack of motivation on my part than anything else
> 
> one new language at my age will do thanks!!
> 
> the scary thing is I understood the Galego & think I would have even without the Spanish there!!
> 
> 
> 
> They say "cousas" when they speak Galego .... and "cosas" when they speak Castellano. _ Remember well_???!


Correct!!! If you can read and understand then you will also get a handle on Portuguese....it's pretty similar.


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> Galego seems VERY different - are there many similarities with Castellano? I don't have too many problems with understanding or reading Valenciano although I doubt I'll ever speak it - more due to lack of motivation on my part than anything else
> 
> one new language at my age will do thanks!!
> 
> the scary thing is I understood the Galego & think I would have even without the Spanish there!!
> 
> 
> 
> They say "cousas" when they speak Galego .... and "cosas" when they speak Castellano. _ Remember well_???!


y cosa cuando estan hablando Castillero


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> y cosa cuando estan hablando Castillero






translation please!!!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> translation please!!!!


 I think Baldilocks means that in his region they leave the "s" off of the word "cosas"


----------



## Tallulah

(Sorry Xabia - tried to edit but it timed me out.....but to continue.....)

I think they're trying to move further and further away from Castellano influences as the BNG (Galician Nationalist party) are forever trying to push through new terms to remove the Castellano elements. You're a maths teacher Xabia - so "raiz cubica" in Castellano becomes "raiz caldeira" in Galego (caldeiro - bucket!). Thankfully we're reverting back to maths in Castellano as we have PP in power and not thankfully the BNG. But that's another thread I guess, arguing the pros and cons of autonomous communities!

I must add however that most [email protected] unlike Catalanes and Vascos consider BNG as extremist and unrealistic when it comes to calls of independence, etc.



Valencia-Hombre - I think it's difficult for a non-Spaniard to get a grips on regional accents rather than mixing up the two languages....obviously there will be accent differences when you speak Castellano with a Galego - but you have to be sure that it's not just a simple collision of the two languages.

E agora vou facer o xantar........and now I'm going to make lunch!


----------



## Tallulah

xabiachica said:


> sometimes we're so used to using the Spanish word for something that the English word has become 'buried' & we just can't grasp for it!!



....and also what PW said on this (sorry - dont know how to muliquote here!)


Absolutely true!!!  I couldn't think of the bloody word for lawnmower recently whilst on the phone to my parents...but cortacesped was the first thing that came to mind....my mum was...."what???" I don't think it's a case of losing English, but the time spent immersed in Spanish and at my age, it seems only a certain number of things can fit in my brain.:tongue1:


----------



## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> (Sorry Xabia - tried to edit but it timed me out.....but to continue.....)
> 
> I think they're trying to move further and further away from Castellano influences as the BNG (Galician Nationalist party) are forever trying to push through new terms to remove the Castellano elements. You're a maths teacher Xabia - so "raiz cubica" in Castellano becomes "raiz caldeira" in Galego (caldeiro - bucket!). Thankfully we're reverting back to maths in Castellano as we have PP in power and not thankfully the BNG. But that's another thread I guess, arguing the pros and cons of autonomous communities!
> 
> I must add however that most [email protected] unlike Catalanes and Vascos consider BNG as extremist and unrealistic when it comes to calls of independence, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Valencia-Hombre - I think it's difficult for a non-Spaniard to get a grips on regional accents rather than mixing up the two languages....obviously there will be accent differences when you speak Castellano with a Galego - but you have to be sure that it's not just a simple collision of the two languages.
> 
> E agora vou facer o xantar........and now I'm going to make lunch!


bit early for lunch??!!!


raiz caldeira - bucket root :rofl::clap2:


the kids in primary here all do maths in Castellano

in ESO, if they are in the Valenciano line it's in Valenciano


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> translation please!!!!


sorry omitted quotation marks round "cosa"

Translation is 'and "cosa" when they are speaking Castillero' (i.e. they drop the final 's' even when it is plural)


----------



## baldilocks

Tallulah said:


> ....and also what PW said on this (sorry - dont know how to muliquote here!)
> 
> 
> Absolutely true!!!  I couldn't think of the bloody word for lawnmower recently whilst on the phone to my parents...but cortacesped was the first thing that came to mind....my mum was...."what???" I don't think it's a case of losing English, but the time spent immersed in Spanish and at my age, it seems only a certain number of things can fit in my brain.:tongue1:


at the age of 69, learning (teaching myself) Spanish is hard work and Yes, English words tend to get lost and I just can't remember them, rather like tunes, you can remember them in your head but you just can't remember what they are called.

If you have ever read Gabriel Garcia Marquez's book "No one writes to the Colonel" you will know what I mean when I say I wonder how long it will be before I need to get in a supply of Yellow Post-its.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> As for mixing languages, I think Brits who speak Spanish are the kings of Spanglish...
> I have to go and do the alta for autónomos.
> Let's go and have a tinto in the plaza in the pueblo
> Venga, I'm waiting!
> He's un pesado


It's not just us! Spanglish is becoming a semi-official language in the USA amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics - there's even a dictionary!
Amazon.com: Official Spanglish Dictionary (9780684854120): Bill Cruz, Editors of Generation n, Bill Teck: Books


----------



## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> Correct!!! If you can read and understand then you will also get a handle on Portuguese....it's pretty similar.


just saw this!!

& funny you should mention Portuguese

we watched Love Actually last night & dd1 & I suddenly realised that we could understand what the Portuguese girl was saying without looking at the subtitles!!

I reckon that the more languages you learn the easier it becomes to learn more languages


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> It's not just us! Spanglish is becoming a semi-official language in the USA amongst 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanics - there's even a dictionary!
> Amazon.com: Official Spanglish Dictionary (9780684854120): Bill Cruz, Editors of Generation n, Bill Teck: Books


But the "Span" part is more Cuban and or Mexican depending whether you are more East or West coast and the "glish" is more US.

Now my d*mn*d keyboard has gone American and giving me all sorts of wrong characters.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> But the "Span" part is more Cuban and or Mexican depending whether you are more East or West coast and the "glish" is more US.
> 
> Now my d*mn*d keyboard has gone American and giving me all sorts of wrong characters.


The last thing you want is the wrong American characters!


----------

