# Autonomo question: Can you work before registering?



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Does anyone know if I'm allowed to work as autonomo before registering as autonomo with Social Security and getting the Social Security #? Then I would claim the $ retroactively. Is that possible? 

Or do I have to be registered as autonomo and have my Social Security # before even starting work?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Does anyone know if I'm allowed to work as autonomo before registering as autonomo with Social Security and getting the Social Security #? Then I would claim the $ retroactively. Is that possible?
> 
> Or do I have to be registered as autonomo and have my Social Security # before even starting work?


no - strictly speaking you can't work before registering

a day or two maybe - but registering is pretty much immediate


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> no - strictly speaking you can't work before registering
> 
> a day or two maybe - but registering is pretty much immediate


Hi Xabiachica. OK. Thanks for letting me know. I'm relieved to know that registering is pretty much immediate. I didn't know there was such a thing in Spain.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Hi Xabiachica. OK. Thanks for letting me know. I'm relieved to know that registering is pretty much immediate. I didn't know there was such a thing in Spain.


you'll be pleasantly surprised....


as long as you have the correct paperwork - everything usually goes like clockwork


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Oh, I hope so. Before registering with SS, I'll have to get my padron and DNI. The only thing left to get my DNI is the birth certificate letter from the Embassy of Spain in Sweden. They did it immediately, and it's already in the mail, which I'm thrilled about. Thanks to you guys on the forum for telling me about the need for this letter, so this delay has been avoided.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Does anyone know if I'm allowed to work as autonomo before registering as autonomo with Social Security and getting the Social Security #? *Then I would claim the $ retroactively.* Is that possible?
> ?


What are you expecting to claim?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> What are you expecting to claim?


Hi Alcalaina. I'm not sure what you mean by this question. Could you rephrase it, please?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Hi Alcalaina. I'm not sure what you mean by this question. Could you rephrase it, please?


you said 'claim the $ retroactively'

what did you mean?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

My income from work.


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## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Do you mean declare?

I got set up as autonomo very quickly


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

goingtobcn said:


> Do you mean declare?
> 
> I got set up as autonomo very quickly


Hi goingtobcn. Yes, 'declare' is what I meant. I'm having a really rough morning. LOL! Sorry for the confusion. 

Did you use a gestor to set up as autonomo?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Hi goingtobcn. Yes, 'declare' is what I meant. I'm having a really rough morning. LOL! Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> Did you use a gestor to set up as autonomo?


no, you can't declare retrospectively


assuming that's what you really mean


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> no, you can't declare retrospectively
> 
> 
> assuming that's what you really mean


Often I'm guilty of putting things too succinctly. So I'll elaborate, but I think you already answered my question...

I'm arriving in Malaga on September 2. I have to get my DNI and padron before registering with SS. This may take a long time before I get to this point, so I'm wondering if I can work prior to registering with SS, and then I will declare the income I received prior to registering with SS. My understanding from your response is the answer is no. Is that correct?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

AllHeart said:


> Often I'm guilty of putting things too succinctly. So I'll elaborate, but I think you already answered my question...
> 
> I'm arriving in Malaga on September 2. I have to get my DNI and padron before registering with SS. This may take a long time before I get to this point, so I'm wondering if I can work prior to registering with SS, and then I will declare the income I received prior to registering with SS. My understanding from your response is the answer is no. Is that correct?


Both the DNI and the padrón shouldn't take more than a day. I bet you can do all of this in a week, max.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Both the DNI and the padrón shouldn't take more than a day. I bet you can do all of this in a week, max.


Hi Elenetxu. For real?! OMG that's awesome news. What an incredible relief. 

Thank you all so much for being there yet again to catch me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> My income from work.


OK I see now. It's just that on this side of the pond, "claim" is what you do to get benefits, for example unemployment benefit. You declare your income, you don't claim it.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> OK I see now. It's just that on this side of the pond, "claim" is what you do to get benefits, for example unemployment benefit. You declare your income, you don't claim it.


Yes, it's the same on this side of the pond. I made a mistake - something I'm also often guilty of.


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## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> Hi goingtobcn. Yes, 'declare' is what I meant. I'm having a really rough morning. LOL! Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> Did you use a gestor to set up as autonomo?


:lol: I thought that's what you meant!

Yes, I did and wouldn't change that. They sorted everything out for me at the beginning and do all my paperwork every quarter.

What kind of work will you be doing?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

goingtobcn said:


> :lol: I thought that's what you meant!
> 
> Yes, I did and wouldn't change that. They sorted everything out for me at the beginning and do all my paperwork every quarter.
> 
> What kind of work will you be doing?


I'm a medical transcriptionist for hospitals. In this line of work in this day and age, typically a transcriptionist subcontracts from a company who has a contract with the hospitals. So that's what I'm doing. I only can do English medical transcription, so I'm not looking to work for Spain, especially because there is already such a work shortage there. Right now I have a conditional offer from the UK which hopefully is just a technicality to work through. By this I mean they looked at my work history and credentials, and said that once I've set up in Spain they will test me. If I pass the test, they will train me. If I pass the training, they will hire me. They can't do the testing or training while I live in Canada because for this company I have to be in the EU to do this work legally. So that's the long and the short of it. 

We don't have gestors here in Canada - at least that I know of. I've never actually even heard the term until joining this forum. Others on the forum have also recommended a gestor. I don't have a gestor yet for Spain. Do they actually list themselves in the phone book as 'gestors?' Or how else would you find one? That would be most helpful if you could give some tips on finding one.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Gestors were originally set up by Franco to help the illiterate Spanish peasants pay him their tax. There are a number of ways in which they have been described. The best I have heard is a clerk that knows their way around the Spanish bureaucratic system. There appears to be no formal qualification so some are better than others. HTH


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Calas felices said:


> Gestors were originally set up by Franco to help the illiterate Spanish peasants pay him their tax. There are a number of ways in which they have been described. The best I have heard is a clerk that knows their way around the Spanish bureaucratic system. There appears to be no formal qualification so some are better than others. HTH


there is a formal qualification, but yes, some are better than others, as with everything I suppose


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> We don't have gestors here in Canada - at least that I know of. I've never actually even heard the term until joining this forum. Others on the forum have also recommended a gestor. I don't have a gestor yet for Spain. Do they actually list themselves in the phone book as 'gestors?' Or how else would you find one? That would be most helpful if you could give some tips on finding one.


You will usually see them listed as Asesoría Fiscal. Gestor is a more informal term. Personal recommendation is best of course, but you will find them in every town.

There is some useful information in English on the different categories of self-employment in this article.

Guide to Spain's autonomo system


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Calas felices said:


> Gestors were originally set up by Franco to help the illiterate Spanish peasants pay him their tax. There are a number of ways in which they have been described. The best I have heard is a clerk that knows their way around the Spanish bureaucratic system. There appears to be no formal qualification so some are better than others. HTH


Hi Calas. That's interesting. Thank you. I'm not sure if you're kidding me or not on the history part of this because it could sound pretty funny or pretty serious. 



xabiachica said:


> there is a formal qualification, but yes, some are better than others, as with everything I suppose


Yes, like medical transcriptionists and English teachers. 



Alcalaina said:


> You will usually see them listed as Asesoría Fiscal. Gestor is a more informal term. Personal recommendation is best of course, but you will find them in every town.


Great tip. Thank you. 



Alcalaina said:


> There is some useful information in English on the different categories of self-employment in this article.
> 
> Guide to Spain's autonomo system


I love those Advoco guys! Unfortunately, there's still not taking new clients.  I've poured through most of their stuff online and it's incredibly helpful. But the other hand this has been one of the sites that has made me realise that I need a gestor to weed through all of this information. Even what they're saying here about the autonomo categories isn't clear, other than I believe it would fall under one of the hospital categories in #86. Is this the type of thing a gestor would advise me on?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I hope someone can guide me here...

I have a related question to my initial question - kind of the opposite question. My initial question was if I can work before registering for autonomo Social Security # etc., and your answer is no. 

But now I'm wondering how long after I register as autonomo do I have to be working? Otherwise I see a scenario where people register as autonomo and get all their ID, healthcare, etc, but never actually work.  :help:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I hope someone can guide me here...
> 
> I have a related question to my initial question - kind of the opposite question. My initial question was if I can work before registering for autonomo Social Security # etc., and your answer is no.
> 
> But now I'm wondering how long after I register as autonomo do I have to be working? Otherwise I see a scenario where people register as autonomo and get all their ID, healthcare, etc, but never actually work.  :help:


I've certainly heard of people claiming to pay the autónomo every month to get healthcare & a pension - but I don't know how they get away with it

I have to produce invoices for every client & student for hacienda every quarter - even though the vast majority of my students don't want one.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I've certainly heard of people claiming to pay the autónomo every month to get healthcare & a pension - but I don't know how they get away with it
> 
> I have to produce invoices for every client & student for hacienda every quarter - even though the vast majority of my students don't want one.


Hi Xabiachica. Thanks for your reply. To be on the safe side, what do you think if I go by the quarterly reporting period? So I'll aim to have a contract and income within the first three months after registering with Social Security.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

AllHeart said:


> Hi Xabiachica. Thanks for your reply. To be on the safe side, what do you think if I go by the quarterly reporting period? So I'll aim to have a contract and income within the first three months after registering with Social Security.


I didn't think there was a choice - I thought you had to report quarterly.


It does make it tough to start a new business though. Even whilst the new business is ramping up you still have to pay the full amount of SS.


[That's really why this new system was introduced I guess.]


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I didn't think there was a choice - I thought you had to report quarterly.
> 
> 
> It does make it tough to start a new business though. Even whilst the new business is ramping up you still have to pay the full amount of SS.
> ...


you're right - there's no choice at all, you do have to report quarterly


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Yes, I understand what you're saying, that I have to report quarterly. I'm thinking about how people get away with being registered as autonomo without working. My guess is they can just say that they haven't been able to find a client yet. Perhaps that is the case. But the fact is that I can't get a client without being registered with SS. It could be that some clients may even insist on having all my ID including health card and DNI before allowing me to work with them. But I understand from the posts here that getting all the ID in order after registering with SS will be fast. Last week I received the letter from the Embassy of Spain in Sweden for my birth certificate to get my DNI. So all is ready to roll here. Once I get to Spain, I just need to rent my own apartment to get my padron and a gestor to set up the SS. Then the rest of the ID is clear sailing. 

You guys have been such an incredible help in sorting out what to do. Thank you!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, I understand what you're saying, that I have to report quarterly. I'm thinking about how people get away with being registered as autonomo without working. My guess is they can just say that they haven't been able to find a client yet. Perhaps that is the case. But the fact is that I can't get a client without being registered with SS. It could be that some clients may even insist on having all my ID including health card and DNI before allowing me to work with them. But I understand from the posts here that getting all the ID in order after registering with SS will be fast. Last week I received the letter from the Embassy of Spain in Sweden for my birth certificate to get my DNI. So all is ready to roll here. Once I get to Spain, I just need to rent my own apartment to get my padron and a gestor to set up the SS. Then the rest of the ID is clear sailing.
> 
> You guys have been such an incredible help in sorting out what to do. Thank you!


they won't get away with no clients for years on end though - which some people claim to do - all I can think is that they falsify paperwork!!!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> they won't get away with no clients for years on end though - which some people claim to do - all I can think is that they falsify paperwork!!!


That makes sense. But you don't know of a law/rule that says that an autonomo absolutely has to have a client by such-and-such date?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> That makes sense. But you don't know of a law/rule that says that an autonomo absolutely has to have a client by such-and-such date?


no - but the question will eventually arise as to how you are paying the autónomo payments if you have no income....


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> no - but the question will eventually arise as to how you are paying the autónomo payments if you have no income....


Perhaps a person can answer that they're using their savings or retirement pension?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Perhaps a person can answer that they're using their savings or retirement pension?


in which case they wouldn't be running a business, would they?

& that's what it's about - being a self employed business person - not a back door into the healthcare & pension system


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> in which case they wouldn't be running a business, would they?


But having a retirement pension and/or savings doesn't prevent a person from being self-employed, right? 



xabiachica said:


> & that's what it's about - being a self employed business person - not a back door into the healthcare & pension system


And that's what you've just opened my eyes to - that people can abuse this system in such a way. Perhaps at some point in the future there will be a deadline imposed as to proving an income.

Just to be clear - I have absolutely no intention of abusing this system or any other system. I never have abused a system and I never will. I always look at the big picture as to the ramifications of my actions.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> But having a retirement pension and/or savings doesn't prevent a person from being self-employed, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


savings are OK - but you can't work & have a Spanish state pension at the same time - I know that doesn't apply to you (yet), but it's something a lot of people don't realise


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> savings are OK - but you can't work & have a Spanish state pension at the same time - I know that doesn't apply to you (yet), but it's something a lot of people don't realise


I do have savings and that's where I'm coming from, knowing that I can have savings and still be autonomo. 

No, I didn't realise that you can't collect Spanish Pension and still work. Thanks for letting me know. 

It's different here in Canada, in that you can collect Canadian Pension and still work. So if I were to be collecting Canada Pension in Spain and not collecting Spanish Pension, then I probably could still work in Spain as autonomo, right? Of course this is a long way away, but I'm just thinking on it. The rules will probably change by my retirement age anyway.

However, if I go on Canada Pension Disability, which can be done any time before retirement age, I am not allowed to work at all or even do volunteer work - in Spain, Canada or anywhere else.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> you're right - there's no choice at all, you do have to report quarterly


 If you're only teaching, you don't have to to do quarterly reports.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you're only teaching, you don't have to to do quarterly reports.


really? I shall have to speak to my gestor about that

it's rare that a quarter goes by without some translation work though


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> really? I shall have to speak to my gestor about that
> 
> it's rare that a quarter goes by without some translation work though


Teaching doesn't carry VAT and so there's no need for quarterlies. I do very little translation and only if the client agrees to pass it off as classes on the bill
Here's a list of activities that are VAT free and you can see that docencia (teaching) comes first, and with in that specifically the teaching of languages
http://www.serautonomo.net/actividades-exentas-de-iva.html


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## MikeItMo (Mar 3, 2018)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *Teaching doesn't carry VAT* and so there's no need for quarterlies. I do very little translation and only if the client agrees to pass it off as classes on the bill
> Here's a list of activities that are VAT free and you can see that docencia (teaching) comes first, and with in that specifically the teaching of languages
> http://www.serautonomo.net/actividades-exentas-de-iva.html


This is good news. Is it still valid?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Teaching doesn't carry VAT and so there's no need for quarterlies. I do very little translation and only if the client agrees to pass it off as classes on the bill
> Here's a list of activities that are VAT free and you can see that docencia (teaching) comes first, and with in that specifically the teaching of languages
> http://www.serautonomo.net/actividades-exentas-de-iva.html


My previous and my current Gestor have always insisted on returns quarterly regardless of VAT! My boss, who owns the school, also has to do quarterly returns


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## MikeItMo (Mar 3, 2018)

Megsmum said:


> My previous and my current Gestor have always insisted on returns quarterly regardless of VAT! My boss, who owns the school, also has to do quarterly returns


thanks. I was expressing surprise and curiosity re the VAT-free situ for teaching


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

MikeItMo said:


> thanks. I was expressing surprise and curiosity re the VAT-free situ for teaching


Yes teaching is classed as VAT exempt


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

MikeItMo said:


> This is good news. Is it still valid?


 Of course!
This is what it says at the end of my bill every month
(Exención de iva por el
artículo 20.1.9 de la Ley
37/1992)
Also I am self employed and I got 800+€ back in the tax rebate this year


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Yes teaching is classed as VAT exempt


Sooo, can you claim the VAT back? Or is your gestor going to reimburse you? Also you don't need to do quarterly returns


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sooo, can you claim the VAT back? Or is your gestor going to reimburse you? Also you don't need to do quarterly returns


Nope can’t claim vat back as not vat registered and don’t charge vat.

I checked with Gestor yesterday and he says I do have to do quarterly returns! I too got a rebate last year! I’m not too concerned at quarterly returns my Gestor charges me less than €100 a year so up to him really

This I found this to back him up but can’t link as I don’t think I’m allowed to, but this is my understanding, I work for a local private school they make deductions from me I then claim that back at the end of the year. My private students pay in full both are declared quarterly and in my annual tax return

Dated 2016



> Private language classes in Spain – taxes you need to pay
> 
> Private classes or in-company teaching?
> This is an important distinction in Spanish tax law.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Nope can’t claim vat back as not vat registered and don’t charge vat.
> 
> 
> This I found this to back him up but can’t link as I don’t think I’m allowed to, but this is my understanding, I work for a local private school they make deductions from me I then claim that back at the end of the year. My private students pay in full both are declared quarterly and in my annual tax return
> ...



Sorry, I misread this post of yours




Megsmum said:


> My previous and my current Gestor have always insisted on returns quarterly regardless of VAT! My boss, who owns the school, also has to do quarterly returns



I don't understand the quarterly thing. I've been self employed since '96 I think it is and I've never done quarterlies and I've also been investigated twice by the tax office! It doesn't really matter as you're happy and so am I, but I am curious...


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry, I misread this post of yours
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I asked again and I have been told the same things it’s also on my paperwork which I’ll dig out tomorrow.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> I asked again and I have been told the same things it’s also on my paperwork which I’ll dig out tomorrow.


 Another thing... I use the code (epígrafe) 826 as do other teachers I know (actually someone asked today on a whats app group which one to use) although I think others use 933.9. I looked them up and both seem to be ok for "enseñanza de idiomas", so what's the difference? Does it matter?
I'll put it on the TEFL thread and see if we get any replies


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## MikeItMo (Mar 3, 2018)

just a follow up--
at #41 Pesky said he tries to have translation work put down as teaching in order to get it as VAT free. In the linked list of VAT free professions doesn't it say translators pay no VAT? (fair chance I've misunderstood ...) Or, can't one have two areas of work under one autonomo?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

MikeItMo said:


> just a follow up--
> at #41 Pesky said he tries to have translation work put down as teaching in order to get it as VAT free. In the linked list of VAT free professions doesn't it say translators pay no VAT? (fair chance I've misunderstood ...) Or, can't one have two areas of work under one autonomo?


OK this is MY understanding as I’m about to embark on another venture as well as my existing job.

I have been told , I can have several areas of work under one autonomo payment. However as my second one, will attract VAT then I’ll have to continue with my non VAT returns for teaching and then a separate one for ten VATable work, which means additional expenses etc in returns. As for whether or not translations are VAT free over to somebody else

Just looked at a bill I paid for translation services when we first arrived and VAT was added


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Looks like translation is more complicated than I thought. Here's some info. It seems it depends on who you translate for. I haven't read these through, but at first glance it all seems a bit silly...



https://www.leonhunter.com/faq-de-fiscalidad-para-traductores/


*5.- **¿Cuándo se omite el IVA en las facturas?*
Las facturas están exentas de este impuesto cuando se realizan traducciones para empresas, autónomos o fundaciones extranjeras (que están dadas de alta en el ROI – registro de operadores intracomunitarios). Las facturas para Canarias tampoco llevan IVA porque en Canarias pagan otro impuesto y no pagan IVA sobre las compras realizadas en la Península. El tercer caso de exención de IVA es para la traducción de obras literarias, científicas o artísticas sujetas a derechos de autor. En los tres casos la factura debe indicar de forma explícita que está exenta de IVA.


*8.- **¿Cómo pagan el IVA los traductores autónomos?*
El traductor aplica a sus clientes un 21% de IVA en cada factura (IVA repercutido) y “se descuenta” el IVA de los gastos relacionados con su actividad profesional (IVA soportado). El balance se realiza cuatro veces al año mediante la declaración trimestral del IVA, para lo cual se calcula la diferencia entre IVA repercutido e IVA soportado. Si el primero es mayor que el segundo, el traductor pagará la diferencia a Hacienda, en caso contrario se le devolverá dicha cantidad al traductor. Para realizar este trámite hay que presentar el modelo 303 en la Agencia Tributaria en enero, abril, julio y octubre, en relación al trimestre anterior en cada caso.


https://www.agenciatributaria.es/AE..._del_IVA/5_1_Actividades_exentas_del_IVA.html




PS Pesky Wesky, woman, mother and wife!


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