# Spanish govt makes plans for Brits after Brexit



## xabiaxica

> El Gobierno activa ya medidas por el Brexit y ultima un real decreto sobre los derechos de los británicos en España
> 
> El lunes se abrirá una página web para ciudadanos y empresas con toda la información sobre la salida del Reino Unido...
> 
> El Gobierno ha decidido activar varias medidas para amortiguar la salida de la UE del Reino Unido y ha anunciado que prepara un real decreto, que prevé aprobar en febrero, sobre los derechos de los ciudadanos británicos que residen en España relativos a asistencia sanitaria, seguridad social o reconocimiento de titulaciones, entre otros aspectos.


quick translation 



> The Government prepares measures regarding Brexit and finalises a royal decree on the rights of the British in Spain
> 
> On Monday a web page will be opened for citizens & companies with all the information about the exit of th eUnited Kingdom...
> 
> The Government has decided to activate several measures to cushion the exit of the EU from the United Kingdom and announced that it is preparing a royal decree, which it plans to approve in February, on the rights of British citizens residing in Spain related to health care, social security or recognition of degrees, among other aspects.


https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-gobierno-activa-ya-medidas-brexit-ultima-real-decreto-derechos-britanicos-espana-20190111140119.html


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## Williams2

*UK's Office for National Statistics challenges the notion that the vast majority of
Brit's living in the EU are retired British citizens*

Apparently the stats show that of the estimated three quarters of a million British citizens living
in the EU, most of them are working Brits and not retiree's and that 7 out of 10 British
Expats ( or Immigrants ) are living in Spain, France and Germany.


BBC News - Office for National Statistics publish stats on Brits abroad


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## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> *UK's Office for National Statistics challenges the notion that the vast majority of
> Brit's living in the EU are retired British citizens*
> 
> Apparently the stats show that of the estimated three quarters of a million British citizens living
> in the EU, most of them are working Brits and not retiree's and that 7 out of 10 British
> Expats ( or Immigrants ) are living in Spain, France and Germany.
> 
> 
> BBC News - Office for National Statistics publish stats on Brits abroad


Yes I've seen that.

And even in Spain, it's a fallacy that the majority living here are retirees.

The really good thing about this from our perspective, is that it doesn't rely on reciprocity. Spain will support us, deal or no deal. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the website when it's launched on Monday.


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## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> quick translation
> 
> 
> https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-gobierno-activa-ya-medidas-brexit-ultima-real-decreto-derechos-britanicos-espana-20190111140119.html


Do we know whether it only applies to those already registered as resident on B-Day, or future arrivals as well?


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Do we know whether it only applies to those already registered as resident on B-Day, or future arrivals as well?


That we don't yet know.

Hopefully there will be some clarity on Monday.

From the way Spain usually does things though, I'll be surprised if 'future' will come into it.


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## Overandout

Of course I welcome anything that Spain will do to help me remain here and in work, but I can't help wondering if this reported plan is a step too far.
The EU called on the 27 countries to regulate UK citizens' rights to reside after Brexit, but I don't think the EU has authorised bilateral agreements on agriculture, air travel, finance etc...


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## Turtles

I believe the support that Spain (+Austria, Netherlands etc.) will offer us in the even of a no deal exit is merely a guarantee that we can reapply for residency. In other words, some of us will be told to leave. The deal avoids this but still takes away our freedom of movement. 
Guess how I feel about this.


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## baldilocks

This is from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46841041

What concerns me is whether the EU Pensions Regulations will still be observed by the UK. SWMBO will, I think, not qualify for a Spanish OAP since, although she will have sufficient years she is only part-time so her UK pension contributions will be important. She currently maintains her UK pension contributions on a voluntary basis so she should be entitled to an OAP from UKbut, under the EU pension Regs, the UK and Spanish pensions should be combined (in some way) to give her a better pension.


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## Overandout

Turtles said:


> I believe the support that Spain (+Austria, Netherlands etc.) will offer us in the even of a no deal exit is merely a guarantee that we can reapply for residency. In other words, some of us will be told to leave. The deal avoids this but still takes away our freedom of movement.
> Guess how I feel about this.


The EU has asked member states to guarantee continued residence rights to UK citizens who have complied with the EU's existing requirements in the respective member states. If anyone is told to leave, it will be those who did not comply. I don't think we have anything to worry about.

In fact, I wonder if some of the "direct" agreements between individual member states such as Spain and the UK may, in the future, make some rights easier to put into effect than under the current EU wide schemes in place. I am thinking about things like recognition of qualifications.


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## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Do we know whether it only applies to those already registered as resident on B-Day, or future arrivals as well?


I have seen somewhere (can't remember where at the mo.,) today, that the status quo will only apply to those already registered as resident on B-day (it's a good job I am typing this and not dictating, otherwise I suspect that would have been "bidet"


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## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> This is from the BBC:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46841041
> 
> What concerns me is whether the EU Pensions Regulations will still be observed by the UK. SWMBO will, I think, not qualify for a Spanish OAP since, although she will have sufficient years she is only part-time so her UK pension contributions will be important. She currently maintains her UK pension contributions on a voluntary basis so she should be entitled to an OAP from UKbut, under the EU pension Regs, the UK and Spanish pensions should be combined (in some way) to give her a better pension.


Hmm, not sure how much credibility to give a report which states that "For other Britons, acquiring Spanish citizenship means surrendering a UK passport."
That's rubbish; my wife became Spanish during last year and was not required to surrender her UK passport. Spain may not recognise her dual nationality officially, but then neither does the UK.


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## Turtles

Overandout said:


> If anyone is told to leave, it will be those who did not comply. I don't think we have anything to worry about.



I have a Spanish friend in the UK (20 years residence, British husband and son) who was told to leave. She was certainly in compliance, but the only way to override an incorrect bureaucratic ruling was to spend several thousand pounds on lawyers fees and get a British passport.
Any sufficiently large sample (for example: us) will throw up a lot of false negatives.


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## Overandout

Turtles said:


> I have a Spanish friend in the UK (20 years residence, British husband and son) who was told to leave. She was certainly in compliance, but the only way to override an incorrect bureaucratic ruling was to spend several thousand pounds on lawyers fees and get a British passport.
> Any sufficiently large sample (for example: us) will throw up a lot of false negatives.


Well, yes, mistakes will be made I'm sure. People go to jail for crimes they didn't commit, doctors misdiagnose illnesses, but we cannot live our lives thinking that this is the norm, at least, I don't.


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## Megsmum

Any news on this site yet.... I’ve seen nothing yet.?


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## Turtles

La Moncloa. How to get ready [Brexit/How to get ready]


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## Megsmum

Turtles said:


> La Moncloa. How to get ready [Brexit/How to get ready]


Read some key points. 


Still not very sure there’s no sell by date, 




> This procedure will allow you to obtain a registration certificate that will be of great use following the date of the UK's withdrawal in either of the two scenarios.
> 
> In the case of an exit with an agreement, the certificate will allow you to prove your condition of beneficiary under the Withdrawal Agreement. In the case of an exit without agreement, this document will allow you to continue to reside in Spain and obtain the documents required by the immigration regime.


What certificate?
What documents will be requiered by everyone or......




> British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country.
> All British residents in Spain will be considered legal residents in Spain. To obtain permanent residence prior periods of residence in Spain will be taken into account in accordance with the regime governing EU citizens.
> To facilitate documentation of all the British citizens in Spain, the registration certificates and cards of family members of EU citizens will continue to be valid until the issue of new documents under the general immigration regime (TIE cards).


So does this mean re registering with the consequences that involves ie minimum income etc.


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## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Read some key points.
> 
> 
> Still not very sure there’s no sell by date,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What certificate?
> What documents will be requiered by everyone or......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So does this mean re registering with the consequences that involves ie minimum income etc.


The way that is worded, it could be disastrous for many of us, me included. We would not be able to meet the minimum income required of third country citizens if that were to be a pre-requisite of registering again.


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> The way that is worded, it could be disastrous for many of us, me included. We would not be able to meet the minimum income required of third country citizens if that were to be a pre-requisite of registering again.


Yes, that’s how I read it, which is NOT what the uk government is saying for Spanish nationals in the UK

We could not meet that requirement either. Worrying times.


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## xabiaxica

I'm reading this bit


> To obtain permanent residence prior periods of residence in Spain will be taken into account in accordance with the regime governing EU citizens.


 as meaning that if you already have permanent status under EU rules - so 5 years registered - your permanent status will hold.

I'm not 100% sure about non EU - at what point do they no longer have to prove funds etc.?


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## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> I'm reading this bit as meaning that if you already have permanent status under EU rules - so 5 years registered - your permanent status will hold.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure about non EU - at what point do they no longer have to prove funds etc.?


I have sent an email to Simon Manley, British Ambassador to Spain, to ask for clarification about this, because the new website does say that even those of us with permanent status will have to apply for a TIE to replace our current registration certificates, and does this mean that we would have to prove the non-EU level of income to get one? If I get a reply I will post details.


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## Megsmum

I’m a little pissed off tbh. Uk clearly stated that EU citizens would not have to prove income if they’d lived in UK for 5 years until end of transition. Like everything it’s as clear as mud

I’ve contacted my lawyer.


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## stevesainty

Quote

British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country.
All British residents in Spain will be considered legal residents in Spain. To obtain permanent residence prior periods of residence in Spain will be taken into account in accordance with the regime governing EU citizens.
To facilitate documentation of all the British citizens in Spain, the registration certificates and cards of family members of EU citizens will continue to be valid until the issue of new documents under the general immigration regime (TIE cards).

Surely the key word here is ISSUE, does that not read that those of us that are legally documented will be issued, not need to apply for, a TIE card?


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## Overandout

stevesainty said:


> Quote
> 
> British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country.
> All British residents in Spain will be considered legal residents in Spain. To obtain permanent residence prior periods of residence in Spain will be taken into account in accordance with the regime governing EU citizens.
> To facilitate documentation of all the British citizens in Spain, the registration certificates and cards of family members of EU citizens will continue to be valid until the issue of new documents under the general immigration regime (TIE cards).
> 
> Surely the key word here is ISSUE, does that not read that those of us that are legally documented will be issued, not need to apply for, a TIE card?


This is certainly how I read it.

Basically:

Regardless of agreement on Brexit or not, UK Citizens in SPain MUST have their residence certs up to date as EU residents before end March, if not you're up the proverbial creek.

Then, if there is agreement, the transition period guarantees our rights until end 2020. If not we will get TIEs.

From a purely selfish perspective I'm kind of hoping that there is no agreement, and that way the definitive solution arrives earlier....


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## Megsmum

stevesainty said:


> Quote
> 
> British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country.
> All British residents in Spain will be considered legal residents in Spain. To obtain permanent residence prior periods of residence in Spain will be taken into account in accordance with the regime governing EU citizens.
> To facilitate documentation of all the British citizens in Spain, the registration certificates and cards of family members of EU citizens will continue to be valid until the issue of new documents under the general immigration regime (TIE cards).
> 
> Surely the key word here is ISSUE, does that not read that those of us that are legally documented will be issued, not need to apply for, a TIE card?



Agreed, having read it again, but it’s contradictory to the first part



> British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country


.

Are they saying

You can stay, you’ll be issued TIE and then become third country citizens?

Also what’s the timescale for bring here? 5 years this April for us? Plus three months before we could register


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## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> Agreed, having read it again, but it’s contradictory to the first part
> 
> .
> 
> Are they saying
> 
> You can stay, you’ll be issued TIE and then become third country citizens?


I think they are just saying that the green certs will have to be replaced with the TIE. The later explanation of how that happens seems fair to me.

In fact, at last we will have an official form of ID instead of this crappy useless paper! 

Something good will come of Brexit!


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## DawnColin

So our move to Javea looks like its is going to be mid to late March depending on our house sale (not great timing but out of our control) so where does that leave us? 

I assume we can apply for residency as soon as the time allows us to, but as non EU citizens with the increased amount of relevant funds and private heath care? (we are not at retirement age).


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## Megsmum

DawnColin said:


> So our move to Javea looks like its is going to be mid to late March depending on our house sale (not great timing but out of our control) so where does that leave us?
> 
> I assume we can apply for residency as soon as the time allows us to, but as non EU citizens with the increased amount of relevant funds and private heath care? (we are not at retirement age).


Not sure really as the deadline to upgrade as such, seems to be 29th March however nothing’s really that clear to me especially time frames. In principle, yes I presume after March third country regulations will apply. Healthcare irrelevant as that’s for non retirees EU citizens as well the financial side is what I suspect is focusing minds at the moment.


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## Williams2

Overandout said:


> I think they are just saying that the green certs will have to be replaced with the TIE. The later explanation of how that happens seems fair to me.
> 
> In fact, at last we will have an official form of ID instead of this crappy useless paper!
> 
> Something good will come of Brexit!


H'm I wonder whether present British Expats and Immigrants will feel more TIEd down in Spain if this comes
to pass after Brexit ?


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## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> H'm I wonder whether present British Expats and Immigrants will feel more TIEd down in Spain if this comes
> to pass after Brexit ?


It may focus a few minds especially those who might have residency here but still use UK healthcare and to and fro.


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## Love Karma

Lynn R said:


> The way that is worded, it could be disastrous for many of us, me included. We would not be able to meet the minimum income required of third country citizens if that were to be a pre-requisite of registering again.


If this does actually materialise and the minimum income of the 3rd country is implemented it could force a great number of people to have to return to the U.K or even worse be put in the position of joining the many who are already here living "under the radar". Worrying times for many I imagine and through no fault of their own.


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## kaipa

I don't think you would be expected to meet non EU requirements if you were already resident. The UK is not imposing that requirement on EU persons who are already resident in UK and Spain have said it will be reciprocated. That would be a new requirement for UK persons coming after Brexit


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> I don't think you would be expected to meet non EU requirements if you were already resident. The UK is not imposing that requirement on EU persons who are already resident in UK and Spain have said it will be reciprocated. That would be a new requirement for UK persons coming after Brexit


So can you explain why the new section on the La Moncloa website says:-

"British citizens who are resident in Spain before the UK's withdrawal date (29 March 2019) will be subject to the general immigration regime. In other words, British citizens who are now residents as EU citizens will be subject to the regime governing citizens of a third country."

It was reported in The Guardian this morning that Poland and the Czech Republic have both said that existing UK residents will NOT be subject to their general immigration regime. I am beginning to wonder if somebody just left the word NOT out of the Spanish webpage!

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...allow-britons-to-stay-if-uk-crashes-out-of-eu


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## kaipa

I haven't read the site yet but if that is the case then there will be no difference between those with residence before Brexit and those after Brexit!. So there would be no need to talk about existing residents. We would nearly all have to leave as even those with jobs would be treated as non EU employees etc. And as has been said Spain have agreed that all UK nationals with residence can remain in Spain as the same will apply to Spanish nationals in the UK so don't worry


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## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I haven't read the site yet but if that is the case then there will be no difference between those with residence before Brexit and those after Brexit!. So there would be no need to talk about existing residents. We would nearly all have to leave as even those with jobs would be treated as non EU employees etc. And as has been said Spain have agreed that all UK nationals with residence can remain in Spain as the same will apply to Spanish nationals in the UK so don't worry


Then maybe you should read the website


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## Megsmum

More worryingly, TM is once again in Parliament saying that the failure of the vote means that citizens rights are now in the air!

WTF


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## baldilocks

Tusk urges UK to consider cancelling Brexit
Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, has posted this on Twitter. He seems to be urging the UK to consider cancelling Brexit.


Donald Tusk
✔
@eucopresident
If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?

8,234
8:40 PM - Jan 15, 2019
Twitter Ads info and privacy


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## Megsmum

baldilocks said:


> Tusk urges UK to consider cancelling Brexit
> Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, has posted this on Twitter. He seems to be urging the UK to consider cancelling Brexit.
> 
> 
> Donald Tusk
> ✔
> @eucopresident
> If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?
> 
> 8,234
> 8:40 PM - Jan 15, 2019
> Twitter Ads info and privacy


ThAts not going to happen. I think he’s saying and what most people are saying is everyone says what they don’t want no one actually says what they want 

I think, imho, there will not be a 

No deal
no second referendum 
No general election 


Proabably Norway or Canada. Times running out. The cherry pick deals gone now it’s an off the shelf model UNLESS they get agreement on the Northern Ireland Backstop


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## kaipa

Re: Megsmum. Just read website but mine was in Spanish. Where did you get the English version?


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## Megsmum

La Moncloa. How to get ready [Brexit/How to get ready]


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## kaipa

Thanks . Read the Spanish one. Not sure that it means everyone will need to reregister as a non -EU citizen. Does it not mean that we will no longer be identified as EU nationals? If it's the former then it means most of us will need to return to the UK. For example, we won't be able to hold our jobs without work visas and if we are retired we will need incomes of 32000 Euros. Not sure how that is reciprocal with the fact that Spanish nationals need only show that they arrived in UK before March 29th. Still what happens happens.


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## vikingred

I think after tonight in Westminster Brexit isn't going to happen? Fingers and toes crossed...


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Thanks . Read the Spanish one. Not sure that it means everyone will need to reregister as a non -EU citizen. Does it not mean that we will no longer be identified as EU nationals? If it's the former then it means most of us will need to return to the UK. For example, we won't be able to hold our jobs without work visas and if we are retired we will need incomes of 32000 Euros. Not sure how that is reciprocal with the fact that Spanish nationals need only show that they arrived in UK before March 29th. Still what happens happens.


Don't panic, the site is clear that we will be OK!!

"In the case of an exit with an agreement, the certificate will allow you to prove your condition of beneficiary under the Withdrawal Agreement. In the case of an exit without agreement, this document will allow you to continue to reside in Spain and obtain the documents required by the immigration regime."

As long as you are legal now (or by 29th March) you will NOT have to go back to the UK.


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## kaipa

That's how I interpreted the Spanish one. I think people are mistakenly thinking that in order to obtain TIE we will need to meet the requirements of third country nationals which is not actually stated in the la moncloa. If that was the case there would be no point in stressing the need to be properly registered as the text states


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> That's how I interpreted the Spanish one. I think people are mistakenly thinking that in order to obtain TIE we will need to meet the requirements of third country nationals which is not actually stated in the la moncloa. If that was the case there would be no point in stressing the need to be properly registered as the text states


Yep. Too much reading of selected parts of the text without putting it into context I fear.

The EU and in turn, the Spanish Government appear to be trying to protect our situation to a far greater extent than the shambles that is the UK Govt. at the moment....


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## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> That's how I interpreted the Spanish one. I think people are mistakenly thinking that in order to obtain TIE we will need to meet the requirements of third country nationals which is not actually stated in the la moncloa. If that was the case there would be no point in stressing the need to be properly registered as the text states





Overandout said:


> Yep. Too much reading of selected parts of the text without putting it into context I fear.
> 
> The EU and in turn, the Spanish Government appear to be trying to protect our situation to a far greater extent than the shambles that is the UK Govt. at the moment....


That’ll be me the. 

I do feel better about it today. Thanks peeps:kiss:


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## Williams2

Well we will soon see whether the Men from the Interior Ministry in Spain, do a better Brexit deal for British Expats 
than their counterparts in the UK.

:lol:


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## mrypg9

I cannot see a future scenario whereby any Spanish Government would deploy the resources of the police, army, secret service etc. to remove this ageing but solvent British national.
So selfish as this viewpoint may be, I long ago disengaged myself from the whole circus that goes by the name of Brexit and the incompetent clowns and inadequate ringmaster that make up its cast.
Dog-walking, reading and watching the excellent Andrew Davies adaptation of ‘Les Miserables’ on BBC are much more rewarding and infinitely less stressful than following the Brexit saga.

I don’t think the rest of you have got much to worry about either, tbh.


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## Overandout

mrypg9 said:


> I cannot see a future scenario whereby any Spanish Government would deploy the resources of the police, army, secret service etc. to remove this ageing but solvent British national.
> So selfish as this viewpoint may be, I long ago disengaged myself from the whole circus that goes by the name of Brexit and the incompetent clowns and inadequate ringmaster that make up its cast.
> Dog-walking, reading and watching the excellent Andrew Davies adaptation of ‘Les Miserables’ on BBC are much more rewarding and infinitely less stressful than following the Brexit saga.
> 
> I don’t think the rest of you have got much to worry about either, tbh.


I agree with you Mary, but I still think that if there are any measures that UK residents can take to make sure the transition from the EU resident cert to the TIE goes smoothly, it would be wise to take these. Hence my comments in the other thread about getting the addresses updated on my family's certificates.
We all know what Spanish bureaucracy is like if you don't have all your ducks lined up (and stapled together).


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## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> I cannot see a future scenario whereby any Spanish Government would deploy the resources of the police, army, secret service etc. to remove this ageing but solvent British national.
> So selfish as this viewpoint may be, I long ago disengaged myself from the whole circus that goes by the name of Brexit and the incompetent clowns and inadequate ringmaster that make up its cast.
> Dog-walking, reading and *watching the excellent Andrew Davies adaptation of ‘Les Miserables’ on BBC* are much more rewarding and infinitely less stressful than following the Brexit saga.
> 
> I don’t think the rest of you have got much to worry about either, tbh.


Yes so much better than any David Davis adaptation of a Brexit deal !!


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## mrypg9

Overandout said:


> I agree with you Mary, but I still think that if there are any measures that UK residents can take to make sure the transition from the EU resident cert to the TIE goes smoothly, it would be wise to take these. Hence my comments in the other thread about getting the addresses updated on my family's certificates.
> We all know what Spanish bureaucracy is like if you don't have all your ducks lined up (and stapled together).


Yes, you're right. I think all my ducks are lined up correctly but I'll sort out the TIE.


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## stevesainty

My wife has just returned from a Brexit update meeting at the hotel la Finca Golf near Algorfa, that was chaired by Sarah Jane Morris the British Consul in Alicante.

The substance of the very short meeting gave us much the same information as we have already and there was no provision for public questions from the floor. One new thing that did come out though, was that the question of "swallows", the British that over winter in Spain, and the possibility of obtaining an up to 6 month visa free stay in Spain was being discussed with the Spanish government.

However, Sarah Jane Morris was open to private questions afterwards.

My wife asked about the TIE card and whether we would need to apply for one and comply with all the usual conditions including the higher income requirements, rather than the "residencia". She replied "categorically no!" 

She then went on to say that the information given in the recent bulletin on the Spanish website, La Moncloa, was very poorly worded and the Spanish Government has not yet made a final decision as to whether we would be having a TIE. If we do get a TIE there may be an indication on the card to signify that we are ex EU British, or they may produce a totally different "card" to identify us as ex EU British.

So we are even more reassured that we will get a residence card of substance after all, without having to jump through hoops.


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## Lynn R

stevesainty said:


> My wife has just returned from a Brexit update meeting at the hotel la Finca Golf near Algorfa, that was chaired by Sarah Jane Morris the British Consul in Alicante.
> 
> The substance of the very short meeting gave us much the same information as we have already and there was no provision for public questions from the floor. One new thing that did come out though, was that the question of "swallows", the British that over winter in Spain, and the possibility of obtaining an up to 6 month visa free stay in Spain was being discussed with the Spanish government.
> 
> However, Sarah Jane Morris was open to private questions afterwards.
> 
> My wife asked about the TIE card and whether we would need to apply for one and comply with all the usual conditions including the higher income requirements, rather than the "residencia". She replied "categorically no!"
> 
> She then went on to say that the information given in the recent bulletin on the Spanish website, La Moncloa, was very poorly worded and the Spanish Government has not yet made a final decision as to whether we would be having a TIE. If we do get a TIE there may be an indication on the card to signify that we are ex EU British, or they may produce a totally different "card" to identify us as ex EU British.
> 
> So we are even more reassured that we will get a residence card of substance after all, without having to jump through hoops.


I am glad it was not just me who thought the information on the La Moncloa website was very poorly worded! Thank you very much for this information though, it is reassuring.


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## stevesainty

I posted this information on the Brexpats in Spain FB page and, amongst other comments, Richard T Hill,an official who has been present at many meeting with the Spanish Consul and Spanish Ambassador Simon Manley, had this to say

Quote

I am concerned that there has been a slight misunderstanding. It seems that nothing is in concrete yet but the TIE is for those who have Residencia now, a simple “swap” process. For those who get it in the future after Brexit they will have to comply with whatever new rules are in place. There is speculation, not confirmed, that the cards may identify those with existing Residencia as “ex EU” in some way.
However for swallows and tourists my understanding is that a TIE won’t be issued as they are only for those with Residencia. Swallows will be able to visit the Schengen zone, note Schengen zone not just Spain for 90 days apparently without a visa. If they wish to stay up to 183 days they will need to apply for an extension of temporary Residencia. I stressed Schengen zone because some people drive down through France taking a couple of weeks there and back. That would be 28 days off the initial allocation of 90 days. Also it is important to remember that it is 183 days in any 12 month period.
So while it is correct to say swallows probably won’t have to jump through hoops to stay up to 183 days just a “simple” registration process for over 90 days they won’t get a TIE as such.
Now having said all this things are very fluid and discussions at government level are still taking place. I am aware that there was a meeting in London between the Spanish and British government officials a few days ago where “swallows” were one of the topics for discussion. 
No doubt some sort of confirmation and clarity will come out soon but my feeling is that everybody is holding back until the position with the withdrawal agreement becomes clearer.


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## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> I am glad it was not just me who thought the information on the La Moncloa website was very poorly worded! Thank you very much for this information though, it is reassuring.


It is much better worded (and translated) than many contracts I have the dubious pleasure of reading! But the clarifications and confirmations are indeed very welcome.

Honestly I had not considered the swallows... they were always the ones who would lose out, or at least be second in line for political support. I'm not saying they deserve it, but the UK leaving the EU was bound to have some freedom of movement impacts...


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## Megsmum

Residencia = green crappy bit of paper or the I’ve been here five years bit of crappy paper


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## mrypg9

It’s early in the morning and I had a late night so please cut me some slack if this is a daft question.

Ihave now been a resident for ten years and four days so am classed as having ‘permanent’ residence status. What rights do I have that someone who registers as resident today or three years ago doesn’t have?


----------



## Overandout

mrypg9 said:


> It’s early in the morning and I had a late night so please cut me some slack if this is a daft question.
> 
> Ihave now been a resident for ten years and four days so am classed as having ‘permanent’ residence status. What rights do I have that someone who registers as resident today or three years ago doesn’t have?


Not much to be honest...

Some will tell you that upon being "permanent" you are entitled to free health care under the Spanish SS system (in your case as a pensioner it matters not of course), but I have never found any evidence that this is the case.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> It’s early in the morning and I had a late night so please cut me some slack if this is a daft question.
> 
> Ihave now been a resident for ten years and four days so am classed as having ‘permanent’ residence status. What rights do I have that someone who registers as resident today or three years ago doesn’t have?


You can leave the country for up to two years without having to re-register when you return.

But lots who didn't bother un-registering come back in without re-registering after even longer than that, when they hadn't lived here long enough to be 'permanent'. 

I'm sure that non-EU citizens can't come & go so easily though, since their passports are checked & stamped.

So I suppose that's worth something after Brexit.


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## mrypg9

xabiaxica said:


> You can leave the country for up to two years without having to re-register when you return.
> 
> But lots who didn't bother un-registering come back in without re-registering after even longer than that, when they hadn't lived here long enough to be 'permanent'.
> 
> I'm sure that non-EU citizens can't come & go so easily though, since their passports are checked & stamped.
> 
> So I suppose that's worth something after Brexit.


An American I know has been visiting Estepona since 2015, each time overstaying the ninety days by over two months. So far, he has got away with it.


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## Overandout

I've just looked at the Real Decreto which regulates this (RD 240/2007) and the only "right" bestowed upon people with "permanent residence" is in fact the "right to live permanently in Spain".
As opposed to a temporary right bestowed on those who have only the normal registration certificate.
It does also confirm what Xabiachica stated above, that this right is lost if the resident is "absent from the Spanish territory" for more than 2 years".

This is an important point (especially for me as I was living away from Spain for 3 years!). Note that it does not say that you lose the right to permanent residency if you take up residency in another country for more than two years, you have to be absent from the Spanish territory for more than 2 years to lose the right.
So, technically, you can move away from Spain but retain your right to permanent residency by simply returning from time to time, so that the period of absence does not reach two years.
A technicality maybe, but the law is the law.....


----------



## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> I've just looked at the Real Decreto which regulates this (RD 240/2007) and the only "right" bestowed upon people with "permanent residence" is in fact the "right to live permanently in Spain".
> As opposed to a temporary right bestowed on those who have only the normal registration certificate.
> It does also confirm what Xabiachica stated above, that this right is lost if the resident is "absent from the Spanish territory" for more than 2 years".
> 
> This is an important point (especially for me as I was living away from Spain for 3 years!). Note that it does not say that you lose the right to permanent residency if you take up residency in another country for more than two years, you have to be absent from the Spanish territory for more than 2 years to lose the right.
> So, technically, you can move away from Spain but retain your right to permanent residency by simply returning from time to time, so that the period of absence does not reach two years.
> A technicality maybe, but the law is the law.....


But is i two years, in total, or two years in one continuous lump?


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## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> But is i two years, in total, or two years in one continuous lump?





Real Decreto 24/2007 Artcle 10 said:


> 7. Se perderá el derecho de residencia permanente por ausencia del territorio español
> durante más de dos años consecutivos.


"The right to permanent residence is lost due to absence from Spanish territory for more than 2 consecutive years".


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## xabiaxica

jokey posts now here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1467274-brexitisms.html - can we keep Brexit jokes to there please?


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I've just looked at the Real Decreto which regulates this (RD 240/2007) and the only "right" bestowed upon people with "permanent residence" is in fact the "right to live permanently in Spain".
> As opposed to a temporary right bestowed on those who have only the normal registration certificate.
> It does also confirm what Xabiachica stated above, that this right is lost if the resident is "absent from the Spanish territory" for more than 2 years".
> 
> This is an important point (especially for me as I was living away from Spain for 3 years!). Note that it does not say that you lose the right to permanent residency if you take up residency in another country for more than two years, you have to be absent from the Spanish territory for more than 2 years to lose the right.
> *So, technically, you can move away from Spain but retain your right to permanent residency by simply returning from time to time, so that the period of absence does not reach two years.
> A technicality maybe, but the law is the law*.....


That's what my daughter does.

In the past couple of years she has lived in both Italy & Switzerland & will probably be returning to Switzerland later this year.

She comes home for a minimum of a month - 9 months this time in fact - takes a job here, visits the doctor etc., to make sure she still has a 'footprint here'.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> That's what my daughter does.
> 
> In the past couple of years she has lived in both Italy & Switzerland & will probably be returning to Switzerland later this year.
> 
> She comes home for a minimum of a month - 9 months this time in fact - takes a job here, visits the doctor etc., to make sure she still has a 'footprint here'.


Sounds wise considering the wording of the law.

If I am ever challenged about my three year absence, I can use my company's travel records, including flight tickets, boarding passes along with my passport stamps (which at least demonstrate that I left Thailand at the time of the flight to Spain).There are probably other evidences at hand of my yearly returns to Spain during that time, although not so well organised as your daughter's, so I do now feel even more relaxed about it than before!!


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## Nomoss

Odd how things change.

I used to carefully ensure I did NOT spend too much time in various countries, to avoid being taxed in more than one


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## mrypg9

Overandout said:


> I've just looked at the Real Decreto which regulates this (RD 240/2007) and the only "right" bestowed upon people with "permanent residence" is in fact the "right to live permanently in Spain".
> As opposed to a temporary right bestowed on those who have only the normal registration certificate.
> It does also confirm what Xabiachica stated above, that this right is lost if the resident is "absent from the Spanish territory" for more than 2 years".
> 
> This is an important point (especially for me as I was living away from Spain for 3 years!). Note that it does not say that you lose the right to permanent residency if you take up residency in another country for more than two years, you have to be absent from the Spanish territory for more than 2 years to lose the right.
> So, technically, you can move away from Spain but retain your right to permanent residency by simply returning from time to time, so that the period of absence does not reach two years.
> A technicality maybe, but the law is the law.....



How temporary is temporary, I wonder....


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## kaipa

It is important that people don't start scaremongering concerning this. The Spanish government have repeatedly said that all UK nationals legally registered as residents in Spain will continue to exercise that right after Brexit. The same assurance has been made by the UK government to EU nationals. This means no one is going to be deported or put in prison etc if they are legally registered. Sure there are changes as far as movement to other EU states and time periods you can be absent from your country of residence. Other than that there is little difference between those with 5 and those with less


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## Juan C

Some while ago a no. EU national, with residencia, asked how long could she leave spain without loosing her residence rights

I emailed the EU helpline. They said two years permanently out of spain, however, that could be extended in the case of pregnancy, or illness of the person or immediate relative, etc.


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## xabiaxica

:focus:

The last dozen or so posts are now here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1467274-brexitisms.html where they belong (Yes I know I joined in...)


Please can we keep this thread to factual information from the Spanish Govt & the discussion of said facts.


----------



## baldilocks

xabiaxica said:


> :focus:
> 
> The last dozen or so posts are now here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1467274-brexitisms.html where they belong (Yes I know I joined in...)
> 
> 
> Please can we keep this thread to factual information from the Spanish Govt & the discussion of said facts.


Ah Miss, it is Friday afternoon...


----------



## Overandout

Well, I updated my green certificates today for me and my kids. Took a certificate of empadronamiento for the proof of the new address.

Had to pay the fee, had to provide all the documents as if it was a first registration (I got told off for not bringing the original birth certificates for my children... but as always, the Libro de Familia saved the day!), but I was not asked anything about work, income or health cover.

As a bonus, the kids now have "permanent" status of residency too.

Bring on the Brexit, hard or soft, we are prepared!!


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## Turtles

You and your kids are losing your freedom of movement. 
Never forgive.


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## Overandout

Turtles said:


> You and your kids are losing your freedom of movement.
> Never forgive.


True, but it is not the fault of the Spanish, who are treating me with more respect and dignity than my own government.

Anyhow, this is just a temporary step until I regain my freedom by becoming Spanish. My kids can get a Spanish passport whenever they want.


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## Williams2

Overandout said:


> True, but it is not the fault of the Spanish, who are treating me with more respect and dignity than my own government.
> 
> Anyhow, this is just a temporary step until I regain my freedom by becoming Spanish. My kids can get a Spanish passport whenever they want.


*Those who refuse to swear allegiance to a Monarch !!*

I often wonder how true Republicans get round having to swear an oath of loyalty to the
Spanish king and his successors in order to gain Spanish citizenship ?

As one of my British Expat friends is a diehard Republican and mocks the Royal Family
repeatedly, including the British aristocracy and thinks the House of Lords is an 
abomination. particularly with all the '_jumped up politicians'_ putting on airs and
graces from being ennobled !!
Fortunately he's never had to swear allegiance to the Queen in his travels, and of
course being born British, he's never had to swear allegiance to be a British citizen and obtain
a British Passport.

Like you he would jump at the opportunity to gain Spanish citizenship but not if it means
swearing allegiance to the Spanish king.

I have suggested he moves to Portugal before Brexit day, in order to build up the number
years needed to be resident in Portugal and finally be able to take up Portuguese citizenship
in a Republican country, as he could still enjoy Spain while living next door.


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## uk03878

Remember national service only ceased 18 years ago. Now that would put that cat amongst the pigeons if it was brought back


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## 95995

Williams2 said:


> *Those who refuse to swear allegiance to a Monarch !!*
> 
> I often wonder how true Republicans get round having to swear an oath of loyalty to the
> Spanish king and his successors in order to gain Spanish citizenship ?
> 
> As one of my British Expat friends is a diehard Republican and mocks the Royal Family
> repeatedly, including the British aristocracy and thinks the House of Lords is an
> abomination. particularly with all the '_jumped up politicians'_ putting on airs and
> graces from being ennobled !!
> Fortunately he's never had to swear allegiance to the Queen in his travels, and of
> course being born British, he's never had to swear allegiance to be a British citizen and obtain
> a British Passport.
> 
> Like you he would jump at the opportunity to gain Spanish citizenship but not if it means
> swearing allegiance to the Spanish king.
> 
> I have suggested he moves to Portugal before Brexit day, in order to build up the number
> years needed to be resident in Portugal and finally be able to take up Portuguese citizenship
> in a Republican country, as he could still enjoy Spain while living next door.


I suspect if you apply for British nationality you have to swear loyalty to the Queen, you certainly do when you take Australian nationality.


----------



## 95995

uk03878 said:


> Remember national service only ceased 18 years ago. Now that would put that cat amongst the pigeons if it was brought back


Any country, including the UK, could (re)introduce national service at any time.


----------



## baldilocks

uk03878 said:


> Remember national service only ceased 18 years ago. Now that would put that cat amongst the pigeons if it was brought back


I thought National Service recruitment ceased back in 1958 which is why I wasn't called up.


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## Love Karma

baldilocks said:


> I thought National Service recruitment ceased back in 1958 which is why I wasn't called up.


I assumed by the posters wording and the context they were referring to Spain which did end conscription 18 yrs ago in May 2001


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> *Those who refuse to swear allegiance to a Monarch !!*
> 
> I often wonder how true Republicans get round having to swear an oath of loyalty to the
> Spanish king and his successors in order to gain Spanish citizenship ?
> 
> As one of my British Expat friends is a diehard Republican and mocks the Royal Family
> repeatedly, including the British aristocracy and thinks the House of Lords is an
> abomination. particularly with all the '_jumped up politicians'_ putting on airs and
> graces from being ennobled !!
> Fortunately he's never had to swear allegiance to the Queen in his travels, and of
> course being born British, he's never had to swear allegiance to be a British citizen and obtain
> a British Passport.
> 
> Like you he would jump at the opportunity to gain Spanish citizenship but not if it means
> swearing allegiance to the Spanish king.
> 
> I have suggested he moves to Portugal before Brexit day, in order to build up the number
> years needed to be resident in Portugal and finally be able to take up Portuguese citizenship
> in a Republican country, as he could still enjoy Spain while living next door.


I am a die-hard Republican and also an atheist. If I had to swear allegiance to anyone, human or divine, I would just remind myself they are only words and a means to an end.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> I am a die-hard Republican and also an atheist. If I had to swear allegiance to anyone, human or divine, I would just remind myself they are only words and a means to an end.


That's what I've been saying to him all along but he's one of these guys who would feel himself
a hypocrite to stoop so low, in order to do this and ( in his words, not mine ) no better than those so 
called British socialists, who he vilifies for accepting honourary peerages to advance themselves
in Parliament.


----------



## JulyB

So what does it mean for the government’s plans that we may not have the same government after April? I would guess that there may be a difference depending on whether Article 50 is extended or not - might it be better for us if the U.K. is to crash out, that it does it in March under the current plan, rather than July? 

If there is a relatively hard right influence over a conservative government, will they really want to continue with a plan that gives us a reasonably high level of rights?

On the other hand, even if the current situation does not change at all... with an election coming up, we are not exactly a priority, so will this plan even come to fruition? 

I am going to a meeting tonight to try to get some clarity on this.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

JulyB said:


> So what does it mean for the government’s plans that we may not have the same government after April? I would guess that there may be a difference depending on whether Article 50 is extended or not - might it be better for us if the U.K. is to crash out, that it does it in March under the current plan, rather than July?
> 
> If there is a relatively hard right influence over a conservative government, will they really want to continue with a plan that gives us a reasonably high level of rights?
> 
> On the other hand, even if the current situation does not change at all... with an election coming up, we are not exactly a priority, so will this plan even come to fruition?
> 
> I am going to a meeting tonight to try to get some clarity on this.


 Let us know what comes up in the meeting, please!
I have no idea about your questions, but personally I think a hard right government will favour British residency rights. That's if they even give it a second thought because as you say there are plenty of other things going on right now in the Spanish political arena. I just think they might want to curry favour with the UK conservative government rather than upset the boat,
Where is the meeting?


----------



## JulyB

Ok, just attended the meeting in central Madrid with the ambassador and consulate staff - first of all, they made it clear that they have no information from the Spanish government on whether we will even have the right to work after March 29th. They hope we will, but they have no information. It basically got worse from there. 

The draft law that would cover us has not been published, they have not seen it and cannot say at what stage it is at. They hope that it will be out before 5 March, because after Congress rises for the election campaign, as a caretaker government their rights to agree such a law would be ‘limited’. They currently have no idea, although they said that they would try to find out!

If (they were ‘hopeful’ it would not) this happens, they were clear that there would be basically no legislation that would cover us, everything would be in limbo and that they expected that a future government would not see us as a priority, so this state would be likely to continue. Again, they said they hoped that this didn’t happen and said they would try to put pressure on to get the law through, but everything has to be done in two weeks. In Spain. While everyone is gearing up for the election campaign.

I walked out and basically burst into tears in front of a very kind member of consulate staff. She didn’t seem at all surprised.


----------



## JulyB

Just to be clear, they were ‘hopeful’ about the right to work, hopeful about healthcare and pensions.

There is a lot of hope, not much else.


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## JulyB

And obviously, this is only what I got from the meeting, others may have had different impressions. You never know.


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## Love Karma

Thank you so much for the update, all sounds very dire indeed. If all they have is hope at this late stage is alarming but not unexpected. Must be very worrying for a great many especially the ones that need to work and are established and now everything is just turning into one big pot of chaos.


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## JulyB

The answer to almost everything is that they simply don’t know, but are working as hard as possible to help us. But.


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## JulyB

And as I say, this is just my impression, as I was not one of the many people recording the meeting, so I absolutely can’t say what words they said vertibam. 

And of course they also wanted to stress that they are still hopeful that Theresa May’s deal will be agreed, with all that this entails. But otherwise...


----------



## JulyB

Anyway, they seemed like they really did care - and I would recommend going to such meetings or contacting the consulate with worries and questions as they really did give very direct and straightforward answers to what must have been some incredibly uncomfortable questions to answer. And they were totally honest and clear about what they know and what they don’t.

They also had an after show session where you could go and ask staff private questions directly about your personal circumstances, so if they come to your area, I totally recommend going. 

I just can’t suggest that you will feel better afterwards. Still, to use a medical metaphor, it’s always better to know the diagnosis than just hope it goes away on its own, right?


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## kaipa

The right to work? Don't think they can prevent people with contracts from working. Besides why would They? After Brexit then any new arrivals will need work visas. Be sensible. There are many non EU citizens working in Spain. Sure it is harder but not illegal


----------



## Pesky Wesky

JulyB said:


> Ok, just attended the meeting in central Madrid with the ambassador and consulate staff - first of all, they made it clear that they have no information from the Spanish government on whether we will even have the right to work after March 29th. They hope we will, but they have no information. It basically got worse from there.
> 
> The draft law that would cover us has not been published, they have not seen it and cannot say at what stage it is at. They hope that it will be out before 5 March, because after Congress rises for the election campaign, as a caretaker government their rights to agree such a law would be ‘limited’. They currently have no idea, although they said that they would try to find out!
> 
> If (they were ‘hopeful’ it would not) this happens, they were clear that there would be basically no legislation that would cover us, everything would be in limbo and that they expected that a future government would not see us as a priority, so this state would be likely to continue. Again, they said they hoped that this didn’t happen and said they would try to put pressure on to get the law through, but everything has to be done in two weeks. In Spain. While everyone is gearing up for the election campaign.
> 
> I walked out and basically burst into tears in front of a very kind member of consulate staff. She didn’t seem at all surprised.


 Thanks for the information. 

I wonder if you could be more exact about the location of such meetings as I live in the area and could possibly attend. Could you also tell us how you find out about these meetings as I have never been notified, probably because I'm not registered in the embassy, but I don't know... I have looked in the past, but have only ever seen meetings advertised in the south of Spain
There are several people on the forum from the Madrid area, so it would be great if you could post some more info.
Thanks.


----------



## JulyB

Pesky, I got the info from Eurocitizens, the Madrid UK citizens rights lobby group. If you go on their mailing list, you get info about their group meetings and sometimes other stuff like this.

Here is their blog https://eurocitizens2020.blogspot.com/?m=1
and they are on Facebook too, I think.


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## Alcalaina

I think it's very likely that if Spain elects a right-wing government they will slam Gibraltar back on the table. Casado et al will have no qualms about attempting to trade off British citizens' rights for joint control of the airport or whatever. And will the British govt prioritise its rocky little colony - sorry, Overseas Territory (pop. 30k) - over a quarter of a million citizens resident in Spain? What do you think?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

JulyB said:


> Pesky, I got the info from Eurocitizens, the Madrid UK citizens rights lobby group. If you go on their mailing list, you get info about their group meetings and sometimes other stuff like this.
> 
> Here is their blog https://eurocitizens2020.blogspot.com/?m=1
> and they are on Facebook too, I think.


Thanks


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's very likely that if Spain elects a right-wing government they will slam Gibraltar back on the table. Casado et al will have no qualms about attempting to trade off British citizens' rights for joint control of the airport or whatever. And will the British govt prioritise its rocky little colony - sorry, Overseas Territory (pop. 30k) - over a quarter of a million citizens resident in Spain? What do you think?


I agree - I can't bring myself to 'like' the post though

What I really want is to  :mad2: it.


----------



## JulyB

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's very likely that if Spain elects a right-wing government they will slam Gibraltar back on the table. Casado et al will have no qualms about attempting to trade off British citizens' rights for joint control of the airport or whatever. And will the British govt prioritise its rocky little colony - sorry, Overseas Territory (pop. 30k) - over a quarter of a million citizens resident in Spain? What do you think?


Yes, I think so too. Yesterday at the meeting that did say that there aren’t currently any parties they have spoken to who actually want to deport us and that generally most parties are quite supportive, so that was good news. 

But yes. The UK government has used us as bargaining chips all this time, so Spain certainly could if they wanted to.


----------



## Love Karma

I just get a very uneasy feeling that the current bunch of clowns in charge in the U.K have no interest in actually looking after it's citizens who live in any E.U territory. Just bargaining chips as you say and seeing the U.K Gov has not one person with any gravitas or negotiating skills I don't hold out much hope or believe anything that they say.


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's very likely that if Spain elects a right-wing government they will slam Gibraltar back on the table. Casado et al will have no qualms about attempting to trade off British citizens' rights for joint control of the airport or whatever. And will the British govt prioritise its rocky little colony - sorry, Overseas Territory (pop. 30k) - over a quarter of a million citizens resident in Spain? What do you think?


Yes I agree. It has usually been the Socialist Government that has looked more favourable on the Gib situation.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's very likely that if Spain elects a right-wing government they will slam Gibraltar back on the table. Casado et al will have no qualms about attempting to trade off British citizens' rights for joint control of the airport or whatever. And will the British govt prioritise its rocky little colony - sorry, Overseas Territory (pop. 30k) - over a quarter of a million citizens resident in Spain? What do you think?


I reckon the Spanish Govt will try new tricks to regain the Rock of Gibraltar by stealth 
and that's to setup a honey trap in La Linea de la Conception and Algeciras of
female Barbary Apes, cavorting near the Rock which should prove irresistable to
Gibraltars male Barbary Apes and over a short period of time, the Gib Apes would have
gone or died out & with it British rule in Gibraltar or so the legend goes.

Of course Britain can no longer cry foul play to the EU about it, as Britain will no longer
be a member of the EU.


----------



## Isobella

Love Karma said:


> I just get a very uneasy feeling that the current bunch of clowns in charge in the U.K have no interest in actually looking after it's citizens who live in any E.U territory. Just bargaining chips as you say and seeing the U.K Gov has not one person with any gravitas or negotiating skills I don't hold out much hope or believe anything that they say.


I don't think expats have been used as "bargaining chips" because very early on in her term TM stated that any EU citizens in the UK would be allowed to stay. If she were bargaining she would have held out to see what the other EU countries were doing. 
Not sure how many spanish are in the UK. only seen out of date figures and estimates but EL Pais said a few months ago that over 12,000 Spaniards moved to the UK last year. (Not sure if they meant 2017 or 2018). With the unemployment rate in Spain and a few hundred thousand returning on the health system it should be food for thought for the policy makers in Spain.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Yes I agree. It has usually been the Socialist Government that has looked more favourable on the Gib situation.


Well, the Socialists have generally been more in favour of dialogue and less prone to jingoistic pomp. Unfortunately, taking this "softer" approach over Catalonia is one of the main reasons they are likely to lose the election, despite all the good socially progressive stuff they've tried to put through.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> I reckon the Spanish Govt will try new tricks to regain the Rock of Gibraltar by stealth
> and that's to setup a honey trap in La Linea de la Conception and Algeciras of
> female Barbary Apes, cavorting near the Rock which should prove irresistable to
> Gibraltars male Barbary Apes and over a short period of time, the Gib Apes would have
> gone or died out & with it British rule in Gibraltar or so the legend goes.
> 
> Of course Britain can no longer cry foul play to the EU about it, as Britain will no longer
> be a member of the EU.


One thing we definitely do not want down here in the Province of Cádiz is those blasted animals. Almost worth building a wall to keep them out, thieving little tykes.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> One thing we definitely do not want down here in the Province of Cádiz is those blasted animals. Almost worth building a wall to keep them out, thieving little tykes.


I think you may be guilty of speciesism.
Shame on you....


----------



## Juan C

When gib was closed by Franco the area of La Linea was like a third world country

If Gib becomes part of Spain then the area will revert to a third world area. I believe around 10,000 Spaniards work on the rock all those jobs would disappear 

I have lived in Spain 30 years. They have no idea of common sense so they may recover the rock if they can and the area will go down the pan !!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Juan C said:


> When gib was closed by Franco the area of La Linea was like a third world country
> 
> If Gib becomes part of Spain then the area will revert to a third world area. I believe around 10,000 Spaniards work on the rock all those jobs would disappear
> 
> I have lived in Spain 30 years. They have no idea of common sense so they may recover the rock if they can and the area will go down the pan !!!


 "They"? The Spanish?
I tell you, they're looking a lot more sensible than the out of control British public and parliament at the moment!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Juan C said:


> When gib was closed by Franco the area of La Linea was like a third world country
> 
> If Gib becomes part of Spain then the area will revert to a third world area. I believe around 10,000 Spaniards work on the rock all those jobs would disappear
> 
> I have lived in Spain 30 years. They have no idea of common sense so they may recover the rock if they can and the area will go down the pan !!!


Sorry, double post


----------



## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> When gib was closed by Franco the area of La Linea was like a third world country
> 
> If Gib becomes part of Spain then the area will revert to a third world area. I believe around 10,000 Spaniards work on the rock all those jobs would disappear
> 
> I have lived in Spain 30 years. They have no idea of common sense so they may recover the rock if they can and the area will go down the pan !!!


If Gibraltar became part of Spain (which it won't) then the companies who employ Spanish workers would remain inside the EU. Jobs are more likely to be lost if/when Gibraltar is outside the EU, and these companies lose the right to sell their services within Europe. Some are already upping sticks and relocating to places like Malta.

Gibraltarians know this, which is why 98% of them voted Remain.

Joint sovereignty is the best solution all round but it's too much of a political football for either country to agree to compromise. Sad, really.


----------



## xabiaxica

I went online to try to make an appt this afternoon for a new student to register as resident.

I don't remember that special category being there a couple of weeks ago.








Unfortunately we eventually reached this.


----------



## xabiaxica

Here's the Decreto Real from today, outlining what Spain is offering us resident Brits - at the moment regardless of a deal or not.

La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Referencia del Consejo de Ministros [Consejo de Ministros/Referencias]

I haven't read it all yet, but I know a lot of you read Spanish, so by all means chip in with anything you find particulary inetersting.


----------



## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> Here's the Decreto Real from today, outlining what Spain is offering us resident Brits - at the moment regardless of a deal or not.
> 
> La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Referencia del Consejo de Ministros [Consejo de Ministros/Referencias]
> 
> I haven't read it all yet, but I know a lot of you read Spanish, so by all means chip in with anything you find particulary inetersting.


I believe it will now have to be approved by Congress in two weeks' time, let us hope there will be no hitches. I've only read as far as the sections on residency rights, pensions and healthcare but it seems quite comprehensive.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Here's the Decreto Real from today, outlining what Spain is offering us resident Brits - at the moment regardless of a deal or not.
> 
> La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Referencia del Consejo de Ministros [Consejo de Ministros/Referencias]
> 
> I haven't read it all yet, but I know a lot of you read Spanish, so by all means chip in with anything you find particulary inetersting.


 Here's some info in English!https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551427780_768403.html


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here's some info in English!https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551427780_768403.html


But, and right at the top:



> The contingency plan underscores that concessions will depend on securing similar treatment for Spaniards living and working in the UK


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> But, and right at the top:


Yes, of course!


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, of course!


I wasn't, of course, suggesting that you were unaware  But to me it seems that even if this is adopted, it achieves nothing unless the UK comes to the party - it is just a little clearer about the detail of what is intended; or rather on offer. Given that the ball remains in the UK's court, everything remains as clear as mud. can't believe it is 1 March and Brit expats and EU expats in the UK, still don't know where they stand and no one knows what the Brexit date will actually be!


----------



## stevesainty

I thought that the UK had already unilaterally guaranteed the rights of EU citizizens residing in UK, deal or no deal.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...__rights_in_the_event_of_a_no_deal_Brexit.pdf

EU citizens in the UK in a ‘no deal’ scenario
7. We have always been clear that we highly value the contributions EU citizens
make to the social, economic and cultural fabric of the UK and that we want
them to stay in the UK. To remove any ambiguity, the UK Government
guarantees that EU citizens resident in the UK by 29 March 2019 will be able
to stay and we will take the necessary steps to protect their rights even in a
unlikely ‘no deal’ scenario.
8. To achieve this, the UK will continue to run the EU Settlement Scheme for
those resident in the UK by 29 March 2019 in a ‘no deal’ scenario. The basis
for qualifying for status under the scheme will remain the same as proposed in
a ‘deal’ scenario and will be focused on residence in the UK. This means that
any EU citizen living in the UK by 29 March 2019 will be eligible to apply to
this scheme, securing their status in UK law.
9. The application system will continue to be streamlined and user-friendly, and
will continue to draw on existing government data, to minimise the burden on
applicants to provide evidence of their residence. Throughout, the Home
Office will be looking to grant status, not for reasons to refuse. Those here by
29 March 2019 will have until 31 December 2020 to apply for status under the
scheme. Until this time, EU citizens will continue to be able to rely on their
passport (as a British citizen may) or national identity card if they are asked to
evidence their right to reside in the UK when, for example, applying for a job,
as they do currently.
10. The UK will continue to honour the right of those who obtain settled status
under the scheme to be able to leave the country for up to five consecutive
years without losing their right to return. We are making the commitment that,
once granted, status under the scheme is secure. More information on the EU
Settlement Scheme can be found by following the links under the ‘further
information’ section of this paper.


----------



## kaipa

I don't think that the UK government have firmly agreed to EU nationals rights hence the reason the minister was sacked this week as he wished to make an amendment to formally secure these rights. It is all very complicated but at least it looks as if there is desire on both sides to give protection and certainty to all settled citizens both in UK and Europe.


----------



## kaipa

I haven't read all the decree but I notice that the healthcare provision makes no mention of the " hot topic" of universal healthcare. It basically says everything remains the same ( although again there needs to reciprocity)


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Here's the Decreto Real from today, outlining what Spain is offering us resident Brits - at the moment regardless of a deal or not.
> 
> La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Referencia del Consejo de Ministros [Consejo de Ministros/Referencias]
> 
> I haven't read it all yet, but I know a lot of you read Spanish, so by all means chip in with anything you find particulary ineresting.


Both sides here are making tentative moves towards an agreement. The problems as I see it are
A - The Spanish government will be dissolved as from 5th March
B - Each side is waiting for the other to make the final move.
C - It's not the most important thing on the table now. Both sides have enormous issues going on which are more important to each political party and which are also more interesting to the media


----------



## Williams2

EverHopeful said:


> I wasn't, of course, suggesting that you were unaware  But to me it seems that even if this is adopted, it achieves nothing unless the UK comes to the party - it is just a little clearer about the detail of what is intended; or rather on offer. Given that the ball remains in the UK's court, everything remains as clear as mud. can't believe it is 1 March and Brit expats and EU expats in the UK, still don't know where they stand and no one knows what the Brexit date will actually be!


While congratulating Spain on moving forward with looking into protecting British citizens rights for those
that are settled in Spain, in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The bottom line with all this is that Spain can make all the pronouncements and as many intentions as they like BUT
until it's written into law and in the statute books; then all we have is what we have ( or rather what we had - 
when looking at our situation from the 30th March onwards ) because after 29th March, we default onto 3rd country
citizen status.

As usual legislation has missed the train as far as meeting the Brexit timetables concerned !!


----------



## 95995

Williams2 said:


> While congratulating Spain on moving forward with looking into protecting British citizens rights for those
> that are settled in Spain, in the event of a no deal Brexit.
> 
> The bottom line with all this is that Spain can make all the pronouncements and as many intentions as they like BUT
> until it's written into law and in the statute books; then all we have is what we have ( or rather what we had -
> when looking at our situation from the 30th March onwards ) *because after 29th March, we default onto 3rd country
> citizen status.
> *
> As usual legislation has missed the train as far as meeting the Brexit timetables concerned !!


Last minute negotiations could potentially extend the date of Brexit, but according to Juncker and Macron only if there is a real plan put forward by the UK, which seems dubious.

Oh, and there's not much set in concrete on the UK side either, because not approved by the Parliament.

And it is, after all; the UK that wants Brexit.


----------



## Williams2

EverHopeful said:


> It is the majority result of a referendum, many who voted leave would have been those who felt left behind by the system. They may be no better off out of the EU, but they may also be no better off within it. It's a global phenomenon, reflected in some countries by voting far left, far right, or 'populist'. We live in unstable times, largely IMHO the result of capitalism gone mad. It will be a long time before political stability is regained in developed countries.



Yes and if I can take your argument one step further - the Referendum had little to do with people's judgement
of the EU as it affects Britain but everything to do with how the British electorate feel ill served by the parlous 
state of British politics and how it's 'lost touch' with the people.

As you say a protest vote !!

If Brexit has proved one thing over the past 2 years, it's how incompetent Westminster has been in making
any coherent sense of it.


----------



## Williams2

EverHopeful said:


> Last minute negotiations could potentially extend the date of Brexit, but according to Juncker and Macron only if there is a real plan put forward by the UK, which seems dubious.
> 
> Oh, and there's not much set in concrete on the UK side either, because not approved by the Parliament.
> 
> And it is, after all; the UK that wants Brexit.


As I said legislation has missed the train with Theresa May still stuck in traffic !!

Of course those back seat drivers from the ERG don't help.

:lol:


----------



## chrisnation

kaipa said:


> I don't think that the UK government have firmly agreed to EU nationals rights hence the reason the minister was sacked this week as he wished to make an Amendment to formally secure these rights. It is all very complicated but at least it looks as if there is desire on both sides to give protection and certainty to all settled citizens both in UK and Europe.


Costa was not sacked. He had to stand down from his ministerial post because ministers are not permitted to submit 'Amendments' to the HoC. 

As No10 had announced measures that in effect_ were_ the Costa Amendment, his Amendment was unapposed in the vote. So, in effect, No10's belt + the Costa braces.


----------



## chrisnation

_"My wife asked about the TIE card and whether we would need to apply for one and comply with all the usual conditions including the higher income requirements, rather than the "residencia". She replied "categorically no!"

She then went on to say that the information given in the recent bulletin on the Spanish website, La Moncloa, was very poorly worded and the Spanish Government has not yet made a final decision as to whether we would be having a TIE. If we do get a TIE there may be an indication on the card to signify that we are ex EU British, or they may produce a totally different "card" to identify us as ex EU British.

So we are even more reassured that we will get a residence card of substance after all, without having to jump through hoops."_


How does this square with the piece in El País in English today ?
_
"This is one of the most salient measures contained in a contingency plan slated for approval by the Spanish Cabinet later today. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) made the announcement on Wednesday during the last plenary session of Congress before the political term ends and a general election is held on April 28."_

... and goes on to say

"_As for British residents in Spain, *they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status*. For those who already have permanent residency, “the process will be nearly automatic.” For the others, there will be additional steps to take. The government estimates that *around 400,000 people will receive new documents, **on top of the 300,000 or so who are already registered.*"
_

There are 310,000 Brits in Spain, according to data I have seen. The article seems to be saying that there are 400,000 more Brits in Spain not registered for Residencia. That sounds highly unlikely.

Boiling it down, there is still a contradiction between what this article says and the statement by the consular official quoted above. 

Anyone already having a line to this consular office would be well advised to check, in light of this latest utterance by the Spanish Gov. We'd all be very grateful.


----------



## Alcalaina

chrisnation said:


> ...There are 310,000 Brits in Spain, according to data I have seen. The article seems to be saying that there are 400,000 more Brits in Spain not registered for Residencia. That sounds highly unlikely.


Looks like a translation error. The Spanish original says 400,000 in total - which would include people working or studying in Spain but not permanent residents.



> Se calcula que hay unos 300.000 ciudadanos de ese país afincados en España (la comunidad británica más numerosa en el exterior). Contando con ese colectivo y con otros que residen solo temporalmente o que no han oficializado aún su situación, el Gobierno prevé expedir alrededor de 400.000 permisos de residencia permanente, según adelantó este viernes EL PAÍS.


https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/01/actualidad/1551473157_919829.html


----------



## chrisnation

Alcalaina said:


> Looks like a translation error. The Spanish original says 400,000 in total - which would include people working or studying in Spain but not permanent residents.
> 
> https://elpais.com/politica/2019/03/01/actualidad/1551473157_919829.html


Right you are. But what about the 

"As for British residents in Spain, they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status." ...

which contradicts the categorical denial of that by the consular official, citing poor wording/translation?


----------



## xabiaxica

chrisnation said:


> Right you are. But what about the
> 
> "As for British residents in Spain, they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status." ...
> 
> which contradicts the categorical denial of that by the consular official, citing poor wording/translation?


That means the TIE, & is a good translation of the original. 

It's only what we've been expecting, since non-EU citizens have to carry them, & that's what we'lll be - & I think that's plenty of time for anyone to apply.

The original does state that for those who already have permanent residency, the changeover would be 'almost automatic'


----------



## Pesky Wesky

chrisnation said:


> _"My wife asked about the TIE card and whether we would need to apply for one and comply with all the usual conditions including the higher income requirements, rather than the "residencia". She replied "categorically no!"
> 
> She then went on to say that the information given in the recent bulletin on the Spanish website, La Moncloa, was very poorly worded and the Spanish Government has not yet made a final decision as to whether we would be having a TIE. If we do get a TIE there may be an indication on the card to signify that we are ex EU British, or they may produce a totally different "card" to identify us as ex EU British.
> 
> So we are even more reassured that we will get a residence card of substance after all, without having to jump through hoops."_
> 
> 
> How does this square with the piece in El País in English today ?
> _
> "This is one of the most salient measures contained in a contingency plan slated for approval by the Spanish Cabinet later today. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) made the announcement on Wednesday during the last plenary session of Congress before the political term ends and a general election is held on April 28."_
> 
> ... and goes on to say
> 
> "_As for British residents in Spain, *they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status*. For those who already have permanent residency, “the process will be nearly automatic.” For the others, there will be additional steps to take. The government estimates that *around 400,000 people will receive new documents, **on top of the 300,000 or so who are already registered.*"
> _
> 
> There are 310,000 Brits in Spain, according to data I have seen. The article seems to be saying that there are 400,000 more Brits in Spain not registered for Residencia. That sounds highly unlikely.
> 
> Boiling it down, there is still a contradiction between what this article says and the statement by the consular official quoted above.
> 
> Anyone already having a line to this consular office would be well advised to check, in light of this latest utterance by the Spanish Gov. We'd all be very grateful.


I don't know who you are quoting in the first part, but the point is that nothing has been fully approved yet. There is still at least one stage that the legislation has to go through before being entirely approved. The civil servants who work in this area will not be informed (officially) of changes in legislation until they are actually legally in force, so the reply to the question of "Do British people living in Spain need a TIE?" will be N"o", until the answer is "Yes!"


----------



## xabiaxica

chrisnation said:


> _"My wife asked about the TIE card and whether we would need to apply for one and comply with all the usual conditions including the higher income requirements, rather than the "residencia". She replied "categorically no!"
> 
> She then went on to say that the information given in the recent bulletin on the Spanish website, La Moncloa, was very poorly worded and the Spanish Government has not yet made a final decision as to whether we would be having a TIE. If we do get a TIE there may be an indication on the card to signify that we are ex EU British, or they may produce a totally different "card" to identify us as ex EU British.
> 
> So we are even more reassured that we will get a residence card of substance after all, without having to jump through hoops."_
> 
> 
> How does this square with the piece in El País in English today ?
> _
> "This is one of the most salient measures contained in a contingency plan slated for approval by the Spanish Cabinet later today. Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez of the Socialist Party (PSOE) made the announcement on Wednesday during the last plenary session of Congress before the political term ends and a general election is held on April 28."_
> 
> ... and goes on to say
> 
> "_As for British residents in Spain, *they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status*. For those who already have permanent residency, “the process will be nearly automatic.” For the others, there will be additional steps to take. The government estimates that *around 400,000 people will receive new documents, **on top of the 300,000 or so who are already registered.*"
> _
> 
> There are 310,000 Brits in Spain, according to data I have seen. The article seems to be saying that there are 400,000 more Brits in Spain not registered for Residencia. That sounds highly unlikely.
> 
> Boiling it down, there is still a contradiction between what this article says and the statement by the consular official quoted above.
> 
> Anyone already having a line to this consular office would be well advised to check, in light of this latest utterance by the Spanish Gov. We'd all be very grateful.


Can you post links as to where the quotes are from please, or I'll have to remove the post.


----------



## xabiaxica

Statement from the British Ambassador to Spain in response to the Decreto Real

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-ambassador-to-spain-welcomes-spains-royal-decree-on-brexit-contingency-measures-providing-assurances-to-citizens-and-business-alike?fbclid=IwAR0I2O1sbvI21-xYwtWTKRpauVksvbjjwm_h2mZRmyMXkrAZuTn6TIyTER8


Stephen Hammond quoted 



> On healthcare, UK has offered to fund healthcare in Spain for UK nationals who would benefit from the S1 / EHIC schemes until 31 December 2020 on a reciprocal basis. The UK is also protecting healthcare for Spanish nationals in the UK. Through the Royal Decree, the Spanish Government has said that it will introduce measures that will protect healthcare for UK nationals in Spain, whether they be resident or visiting, utilising the pre-existing reimbursement mechanisms. Under the reimbursement mechanisms, the UK Government paid Spain £250m last year for the healthcare costs of British nationals in Spain, and the Spanish government paid the £4 million for the healthcare costs of Spanish nationals in the UK.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Can you post links as to where the quotes are from please, or I'll have to remove the post.


 It's from here Xabia
https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/0...?id_externo_nwl=newsletter_inenglish20190301m


----------



## Love Karma

xabiaxica said:


> Can you post links as to where the quotes are from please, or I'll have to remove the post.


I read the quote that has parts highlighted in red previously on this thread, post number #113 by pesky wesky who posted the link below

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551427780_768403.html


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's from here Xabia
> https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/0...?id_externo_nwl=newsletter_inenglish20190301m





Love Karma said:


> I read the quote that has parts highlighted in red previously on this thread, post number #113 by pesky wesky who posted the link below
> 
> https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/01/inenglish/1551427780_768403.html


Thanks, but not that bit!


----------



## jpsnwuk

*too good to be true?*



xabiaxica said:


> Statement from the British Ambassador to Spain in response to the Decreto Real
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-ambassador-to-spain-welcomes-spains-royal-decree-on-brexit-contingency-measures-providing-assurances-to-citizens-and-business-alike?fbclid=IwAR0I2O1sbvI21-xYwtWTKRpauVksvbjjwm_h2mZRmyMXkrAZuTn6TIyTER8
> 
> 
> Stephen Hammond quoted


I hope this is true, of course, a change in Spanish Gov (which is likely) could change all this, time will tell, When I see it it in law passed and operating Ill beleive it


----------



## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> Statement from the British Ambassador to Spain in response to the Decreto Real
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/british-ambassador-to-spain-welcomes-spains-royal-decree-on-brexit-contingency-measures-providing-assurances-to-citizens-and-business-alike?fbclid=IwAR0I2O1sbvI21-xYwtWTKRpauVksvbjjwm_h2mZRmyMXkrAZuTn6TIyTER8
> 
> 
> Stephen Hammond quoted


Although it will provide a welcome temporary respite, the fact that healthcare arrangements (and annual pension increases) for British pensioners resident in Spain will only be guaranteed until December 2020 as a result of these decisions, there will still be more uncertainty until the position beyond that date is resolved, hopefully by a new reciprocal agreement. All in all, more than four years of anxiety is not a good position to be in.


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> Although it will provide a welcome temporary respite, the fact that healthcare arrangements (and annual pension increases) for British pensioners resident in Spain will only be guaranteed until December 2020 as a result of these decisions, there will still be more uncertainty until the position beyond that date is resolved, hopefully by a new reciprocal agreement. All in all, more than four years of anxiety is not a good position to be in.


Surely the guaranteed until December 2020 is the date set for the end of the Transition period
( some call Implementation period ) which will only be set in motion if the UK - EU Withdrawal
Agreement is approved by the British Parliament.

Unless this guarantee is not conditional on the Transition period coming into force ?,
then big doubts remain in the event of a No deal Brexit on the 29th March.


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Surely the guaranteed until December 2020 is the date set for the end of the Transition period
> ( some call Implementation period ) which will only be set in motion if the UK - EU Withdrawal
> Agreement is approved by the British Parliament.
> 
> Unless this guarantee is not conditional on the Transition period coming into force ?,
> then big doubts remain in the event of a No deal Brexit on the 29th March.


It is the date for the end of the transition period, but the latest Real Decreto and the UK Government position say they will apply whether there is a deal or not (as long as there is reciprocity) don't they?

But the point is, even if there is a deal, that still only gives a degree of certainty for another one year and nine months, a lot less than the time which has already elapsed since the result of the referendum.


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> It is the date for the end of the transition period, but the latest Real Decreto and the UK Government position say they will apply whether there is a deal or not (as long as there is reciprocity) don't they?
> 
> But the point is, even if there is a deal, that still only gives a degree of certainty for another one year and nine months, a lot less than the time which has already elapsed since the result of the referendum.


Ok that's good that they're starting to 'ring fence' these arrangements outside the UK - EU Withdrawal Agreement, 
so that even in the event of a No Deal Brexit and the Transition Period that comes with it disappearing into thin air.
Some things will be protected for a while or until something firmer is agreed, hopefully before the end of
December 2020.


----------



## chrisnation

xabiaxica said:


> Can you post links as to where the quotes are from please, or I'll have to remove the post.


The quote starting "My wife ... " about the consular official's comment is post #51, by stevesainty.

All the rest are from el País English edition.


----------



## baldilocks

All this "We'll scratch your back *IF* you scratch ours" (a.k.a. reciprocity) has a huge degree of uncertainty built in to it and does nothing to really allay the fears of most, especially those dependent upon the S1 system or those looking to have their future pensions based on the EU Pensions Regulations.


----------



## chrisnation

baldilocks said:


> All this "We'll scratch your back *IF* you scratch ours" (a.k.a. reciprocity) has a huge degree of uncertainty built in to it and does nothing to really allay the fears of most, especially those dependent upon the S1 system or those looking to have their future pensions based on the EU Pensions Regulations.


Well, Baldi, the fat lady has not yet even started warming up her vocals, let alone done any singing, so amuse yourself until such time as....

For starters, there are going to be two GEs before Hogmanay 2020. One SP the other GB.


----------



## xabiaxica

chrisnation said:


> The quote starting "My wife ... " about the consular official's comment is post #51, by stevesainty.
> 
> All the rest are from el País English edition.


Wow that's a LONG way back on the thread!

Can you please use the quote button in future, to save confusion


----------



## ElaineG

Re the OAP annual increases 

The U.K. gov can decide unilaterally to provide the increases. Only if they decide to do so will it stop. 

Thus if we do loose the increases I will 100% blame the U.K. government 

As for the S1 ‘free health cover’. The U.K. pay around 4,700€ per year to spain for each person so entitled, as they do also for dependants over 65. For delendants under over 18 but under 65, it is a bit less and for those under 19 less still. 

We can only hope that will continue or if not that we will be entitied to the free cover apparently provided by spain to all who reside in spain, whether they do so legally or not.


----------



## xabiaxica

ElaineG said:


> Re the OAP annual increases
> 
> The U.K. gov can decide unilaterally to provide the increases. Only if they decide to do so will it stop.
> 
> Thus if we do loose the increases I will 100% blame the U.K. government
> 
> As for the S1 ‘free health cover’. The U.K. pay around 4,700€ per year to spain for each person so entitled, as they do also for dependants over 65. For delendants under over 18 but under 65, it is a bit less and for those under 19 less still.
> 
> We can only hope that will continue or if not that we will be entitied to the free cover apparently provided by spain to all who reside in spain, whether they do so legally or not.


Spain reckons that it costs more than 4700€ per S1 holder so I think we can expect them to want a different deal which more closely reflects actual costs - perhaps a bilateral agreement involving direct billing? 

As you say, it will be entirely up to the UK as to whether they accept a deal & if they don't, then it will be the UK letting those who need the most support.


----------



## ElaineG

“We can only hope that will continue or if not that we will be entitied to the free cover apparently provided by spain to all who reside in spain, whether they do so legally or not.”

I have a friend from USA. He has had that free cover provided by spain for the past couple of years. Other than having residencia (USA national) he has never paid into the Spanish health care system

Be interested to know your view on free cover. That is, if brits would automatically be covered if the S1 system ceases


----------



## xabiaxica

ElaineG said:


> “We can only hope that will continue or if not that we will be entitied to the free cover apparently provided by spain to all who reside in spain, whether they do so legally or not.”
> 
> I have a friend from USA. He has had that free cover provided by spain for the past couple of years. Other than having residencia (USA national) he has never paid into the Spanish health care system
> 
> Be interested to know your view on free cover. That is, if brits would automatically be covered if the S1 system ceases


There is free healthcare for those 'sin recursos', with an income below a certian limit, so it's likely that many pensioners will be covered by that.

There's also this - but so far only Andalucía seems to be offering it https://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/1452352-free-healthcare.html

Whereabouts does your friend live?


----------



## ElaineG

My friend lives in Andalucia


----------



## Megsmum

I have just has this through 

It’s in Spanish. I’m working my way through it

https://www.iberley.es/noticias/rea...-minimizar-futuro-brexit-acuerdo-29466?o[a]=1

F


----------



## kaipa

Interesting stuff in this article. Much mote detail. Thanks


----------



## kaipa

I see that it says the procedure for obtaining permanent residence requires showing passport etc but it doesn't mention any procedure for those with less than five years. I notice it also seems to say that those persons who may have missed dates for acquiring residency can have their cases treated on an individual basis


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I see that it says the procedure for obtaining permanent residence requires showing passport etc but it doesn't mention any procedure for those with less than five years. I notice it also seems to say that those persons who may have missed dates for acquiring residency can have their cases treated on an individual basis


The article posted is vague, but that is because the RD5/2019 from 1st March is equally as vague...

For me it goes some way to clearing up our rights to reside, but really doesn't satisfactorily cover our rights to work for example (unless your job falls into one of the very specific categories mentioned in the Law).

My company has decided that I will need a Work Permit after Brexit and has asked me to sign an undertaking to obtain the Work Permit in order to regulate my position. Needless to say I have refused to sign it.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I see that it says the procedure for obtaining permanent residence requires showing passport etc but it doesn't mention any procedure for those with less than five years. I notice it also seems to say that those persons who may have missed dates for acquiring residency can have their cases treated on an individual basis


Yes that is a worry for those who registered fewer than 5 years ago. 

I wonder if treating those who haven't managed to register in time on an individual basis will mean that they'll be weeding out those who have clearly lived here for years under the radar? It would certainly seem to be a good opportunity to do so.

Anyone who can prove that they had only just arrived could be more likely to b granted residence under EU requirements.

Of course those already under the radar might choose to remain so, although for sure it will be much harder once we're 3rd country citizens - & as soon as they left Spain for any reason that would likely be the end of it.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Yes that is a worry for those who registered fewer than 5 years ago.
> 
> I wonder if treating those who haven't managed to register in time on an individual basis will mean that they'll be weeding out those who have clearly lived here for years under the radar? It would certainly seem to be a good opportunity to do so.
> 
> Anyone who can prove that they had only just arrived could be more likely to b granted residence under EU requirements.
> 
> Of course those already under the radar might choose to remain so, although for sure it will be much harder once we're 3rd country citizens - & as soon as they left Spain for any reason that would likely be the end of it.


Well, I’m hoping for a delay, five years in May for us... with actual card, five years last week as in arrival


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Well, I’m hoping for a delay, five years in May for us... with actual card, five years last week as in arrival


Hopefully they'll look kindly upon those who have done the right thing in a timely manner!


----------



## tebo53

Mine is also 5 years in September. Hope to see it through ok

Steve


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Hopefully they'll look kindly upon those who have done the right thing in a timely manner!


However, it does contradict everything that’s been said up until now. Previously there has been no mention of how long you have lived here and I believe the U.K. is saying as long as you have you papers in order BEFORE 29th March you can stay. I’m a little pissed off, TBH, with the ever changing goalposts from all sides


----------



## kaipa

Well actually it does say that those people who are resident before Brexit will have their rights protected . So that means they can stay but then it mentions the procedure for those who want to get the permanent TIE. So yes it is vague but it is not saying that those with less than 5 years will no longer have rights of residence. In fact it is actually saying that family members will be able to reside provided it is done before Brexit. What it doesn't say is what procedure will be required for those with less than 5 years I.e will there need to show incomes health insurance etc. Which I imagine they will. The section on work also suggests continued protection but " communting" workers will face changes. Also this is what will happen if no deal and given that it looks as though next week will either e a vote for a deal or ( more likely) an extension of article 50 and a no deal taken off the table. So fingers crossed nothing terrible will happen


----------



## 95995

As I understand it the 5 years legal residence relates to *permanent *residence with working rights etc (and that complies with EU rules), which does not necessarily mean that those with less than 5 years would be required to leave, whether they would be able to continue working is, of course, an entirely different matter.

Edit:

Just saw Kaipa's post re working rights, so perhaps it is at least in part addressed.


----------



## kaipa

Yes the way I read it is : first this is only a contingency arrangement if there is No Deal ( so don't panic, that is looking less and less likely and in fact if the deal is not accepted next week then on Wednesday no deal could be explicitly ruled out) 
Second: the permanent residency is in line with EU rules and mirrors UK settled Status. So nothing new. But it is Cleary not suggesting only those with 5 years get to stay hence the paragraphs before. 

Anyway if there is a deal ( at some stage) then these rights etc will be unified across all European countries and will much clearer.

The main difference is going to be with anyone arriving after Brexit expecting living and working conditions to be as there were previously


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> Yes the way I read it is : first this is only a contingency arrangement if there is No Deal ( so don't panic, that is looking less and less likely and in fact if the deal is not accepted next week then on Wednesday no deal could be explicitly ruled out)
> Second: the permanent residency is in line with EU rules and mirrors UK settled Status. So nothing new. But it is Cleary not suggesting only those with 5 years get to stay hence the paragraphs before.
> 
> Anyway if there is a deal ( at some stage) then these rights etc will be unified across all European countries and will much clearer.
> 
> *The main difference is going to be with anyone arriving after Brexit expecting living and working conditions to be as there were previously*


*

*


Agree, because they will definitely not be the same. They will be the same as for those from non-EU/EEA countries.


----------



## kaipa

One question I have is:if an extension is granted and then at a later date an agreement is reached will there still be a the 21 month adjustment period from that moment of agreement? If the extension is a long one (9 months) plus another 21 month adjustment then many people will have or be close to the 5 year mark


----------



## Megsmum

I’m not panicking im just a bit fed up with all this if buts and wherefore. If, as is stated I miss five years by four weeks and am treated as someone whose been her five weeks is a bit rich. As for working, I’m autonomo, so unaware I’d thats an issue as I obviously don’t need a work permit to be autonomo. 

Less than what, 30 days, and we are still, in theory no closer to closure, we still have a spanish GE to go through and a new government might have different ideas, we still don’t know if the U.K. will or will not leave. That’s why I’m pissed off. 

If push comes to shove, I’ll simply re register as an Irish citizen.


----------



## kaipa

Understand your mood. I feel the same but do remember that all this is in event of a no deal and I really can't see the government voting for that next week as only the DUP and ERG want that and their numbers a very small


----------



## Williams2

Fiona Godfrey of British in Europe - EU select committee debate in Brussels on Monday morning, called 
_*Who will protect citizens rights*_.
It's a long video but goes into all the issues facing British citizens on the final days before Brexit.

This can be found on the British in Europe FB site for the 5th March.


----------



## stevesainty

https://expatsmagazine.org/brexit-s...r&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blog_07032019

This is a link attached to the FB page Brexpats in Spain who have been campaigning on our behalf.

This is a quote by Richard Hill, one of the officers of Brexpats In Spain.

"One of our supporters Ignacio our legal advisor Pellicer Heredia who attends and advises at all our meetings in Valencia, Murcia and Almeria has allowed us to use this information video. It’s a nice summary of the Royal Decree and the current situation.

Please remember he is one of our key supporters not just another advertiser. He has helped many of our members."


----------



## baldilocks

stevesainty said:


> https://expatsmagazine.org/brexit-s...r&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blog_07032019
> 
> This is a link attached to the FB page Brexpats in Spain who have been campaigning on our behalf.
> 
> This is a quote by Richard Hill, one of the officers of Brexpats In Spain.
> 
> "One of our supporters Ignacio our legal advisor Pellicer Heredia who attends and advises at all our meetings in Valencia, Murcia and Almeria has allowed us to use this information video. It’s a nice summary of the Royal Decree and the current situation.
> 
> Please remember he is one of our key supporters not just another advertiser. He has helped many of our members."


Does that mean that those who have permanent residence have also to apply for a TIE? - it isn't entirely clear.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Does that mean that those who have permanent residence have also to apply for a TIE? - it isn't entirely clear.


Yes we do have to - that's clear from the Decreto Real. 

We'll be issued one 'almost automatically' when we apply. 

What isn't clear is what happens to those who don't yet have permanent residence.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> Does that mean that those who have permanent residence have also to apply for a TIE? - it isn't entirely clear.


Yes, sooner or later


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, sooner or later


Before or after Brexit?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> Before or after Brexit?


After


----------



## Megsmum

/SNIP/


To get a document certifying your right of permanent residence, you must submit proof that you have been living legally in the country for 5 years.

You need to send different supporting documents with your application, depending on your situation (employed, self-employed, jobseeker, pensioner, student). This could include:

A valid registration certificate issued when you arrived in the host country

Evidence that you’ve been living in the country, such as utility bills and rental contracts

Evidence such as payslips, bank statements, tax returns that you’ve been working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work

You are NOT obliged by law to do so but you are entitled to do so.


So, I’m a little confused as to where the permanent residency bit came from? Even in the event of no deal, which I think is looking likely, I’m unsure as to why five years is important. Can someone point me to an official link or anything that states we have to have lived here for five years to get an automatic TIE card ?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Which is the big problem I suspect for many folks. I’ve not seen anything yet where any times scales have been mentioned or the word permanent
> 
> Yes everywhere says
> 
> 
> 
> Most people are told that residencia is when you register
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain
> 
> Residency certificate
> Your residency certificate (residencia) is the piece of paper that registers you as living in Spain. It is issued at the appropriate Foreigner’s Office or National Police station depending on where you live. In many areas you need to obtain your residencia certificate before applying for your padrón but this does vary.
> 
> https://www.abacoadvisers.com/spain-explained/spanish-law/news/how-become-resident-in-spain
> 
> In fact permanent residency is not even an obligation in fact it’s not actually, according to this, five years from your residencia card it’s
> 
> /SNIP/
> 
> 
> To get a document certifying your right of permanent residence, you must submit proof that you have been living legally in the country for 5 years.
> 
> You need to send different supporting documents with your application, depending on your situation (employed, self-employed, jobseeker, pensioner, student). This could include:
> 
> A valid registration certificate issued when you arrived in the host country
> 
> Evidence that you’ve been living in the country, such as utility bills and rental contracts
> 
> Evidence such as payslips, bank statements, tax returns that you’ve been working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work
> 
> You are NOT obliged by law to do so but you are entitled to do so.
> 
> 
> So, I’m a little confused as to where the permanent residency bit came from? Even in the event of no deal, which I think is looking likely, I’m unsure as to why five years is important. Can someone point me to an official link or anything that states we have to have lived here for five years to get an automatic TIE card ?


Megsmum, in this case I would advise you to get information from official sources, which the Citizen's Advice Bureau is not. I got in touch with the real CAB a few years ago and was told that there is no relationship between the well known British organization and this Spanish one... When talking about Brexit it's difficult to find info from official sources I know, but mainly because there is little. However, in recent weeks we are getting something coming through, some of which has been posted by you!
The sentence


> You are NOT obliged by law to do so but you are entitled to do so.


 is out of context in your post

/SNIP/
It also says that this info has been...



> taken for the EU commission website


So that's where you can look for it.


----------



## kaipa

I dont think there Will be a problem por these with less than 5 years. It wouldn't make sense to tell people to make sure they are legally resident before Brexit and then tell them they will be treated the same as those wishing to register after. Besides the UK has made it clear that there will be two types in the uk: settled and pre- settled Status. The difference is really pertaining to rights. Settled means they can't have it revoked for criminal records etc whereas pre- settled would be more vulnerable. Spain will mean the same. Also look at it this way. If there is an extension ( 9 months) then nearly 2 year transition period then a period of grace ( 1 year) even folk arriving now could have nearly 4 years under their belt before needing to change anything. So look on the bright side


----------



## kaipa

Yes I agree with Pesky. CAB in Spain is NOT an official site and is not related to the UK version. It's it simply a website employing volunteer individuals. It thumps the drum in the manner of a legally know it all individual and can be wrong. If things don't go their way they insinuate it is down to some kind of incompetence which I feel is a rather arrogant approach. So please use official Spanish and UK sites if trying to find out iormation on this. The above link for example is a kind of 're worded version of the Spanish one Megsmum posted earlier in the week and actually seems to imply slightly different points


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Here is the decreto ley (Again. It was posted by xabiachica earlier on) No mention of 5 years or any years here.
La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Real Decreto-ley para hacer frente a las consecuencias de la retirada de Reino Unido de la UniÃ³n Europea sin acuerdo [Brexit/Noticias]
You have to scroll down to *Ciudadanía*



> Los nacionales británicos y sus familiares deberán pedir, antes del 31 de diciembre de 2020, la Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero, documento que acreditará de forma definitiva, su residencia legal en España.
> El Gobierno aprobará unas instrucciones que articulan el procedimiento para transitar a su situación definitiva, dentro del régimen general de residencia de nacionales de un tercer estado.
> En caso de que ya dispusieran de residencia permanente como ciudadanos europeos el proceso será casi automático. En otro caso se les reconocerá la residencia temporal, en función del tiempo de residencia acreditado, conforme a la legislación general.


So, we will have to get a TIE before 31st Dec 2020, but don't panic! We don't have to do it yet, in fact we CAN'T do it yet as they haven't come up with the instructions of how to do it AND because the UK is still part of the EU. 

So we have to wait for the UK to definitely leave, and that is not yet done, and we have to know how to do it because in this legal document from the Spanish government it is said that legal residents will be given special instructions on how to do this. Add in to the mix that the government who published this "decreto ley" is now fighting to stay in and there will be a general election on 28th April and after that local elections in May... Anything could happen!!


PS I'm still not sure if 5 years or 10 years has actually been posted anywhere so please post if it's mentioned in some official capacity


----------



## kaipa

Yes. Where did all this 5 year stuff come from? It is not there in the Spanish moncloa site but then turns up on non official sites and English documents not published by Spanish government.


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> Yes. Where did all this 5 year stuff come from? It is not there in the Spanish moncloa site but then turns up on non official sites and English documents not published by Spanish government.


This does seem to be an "official" Spanish Government website and does state the five years regulation you question

_"Foreigners who have been temporary residents in Spain *for five uninterrupted years* and meet the conditions established by regulation shall be entitled to long-term residence"_

Residing in Spain


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Love Karma said:


> This does seem to be an "official" Spanish Government website and does state the five years regulation you question
> 
> _"Foreigners who have been temporary residents in Spain *for five uninterrupted years* and meet the conditions established by regulation shall be entitled to long-term residence"_
> 
> Residing in Spain


 Although it's not very clear, I think that is referring to non EU residents, isn't it? Look at this at the end of the page


> EU Citizens
> Citizens of the European Union and their family members, provided that the latter travel with or meet said citizens, are subject to a specific legal system based on the rights recognized in the Treaties.


----------



## Love Karma

Pesky Wesky said:


> Although it's not very clear, I think that is referring to non EU residents, isn't it? Look at this at the end of the page


Agree fully that it can be read that way and in that case would tie in from the Spanish Government website to the E.U rules which states the "five year" rule for E.U state citizens.


https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm

But after Brexit we will not be E.U citizens so will the relevant functionarios simply enforce the foreigner rule, in my experience they can be pretty pedantic. EG You've been here 4 years and 364 days, you don't qualify for the 5 yrs.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Yes. Where did all this 5 year stuff come from? It is not there in the Spanish moncloa site but then turns up on non official sites and English documents not published by Spanish government.


It's here Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior



> *Residencia de carácter permanente*
> Son titulares del derecho a residir con * carácter permanente los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea *o de un Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo, y los miembros de la familia que no sean nacionales de uno de dichos Estados, *que hayan residido legalmente en España durante un período continuado de cinco años*.


it then goes on to give other options


----------



## kaipa

Yes but that is with reference to current situation and all EU members I was referring to last month's decree pertaining only to to Brexit and there there is no mention of any number of years required for UK residents ( with existing legal residency) to be granted legal status to reside.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Yes I agree with Pesky. CAB in Spain is NOT an official site and is not related to the UK version. It's it simply a website employing volunteer individuals. It thumps the drum in the manner of a legally know it all individual and can be wrong. If things don't go their way they insinuate it is down to some kind of incompetence which I feel is a rather arrogant approach. So please use official Spanish and UK sites if trying to find out iormation on this. The above link for example is a kind of 're worded version of the Spanish one Megsmum posted earlier in the week and actually seems to imply slightly different points





kaipa said:


> Yes. Where did all this 5 year stuff come from? It is not there in the Spanish moncloa site but then turns up on non official sites and English documents not published by Spanish government.





Pesky Wesky said:


> Here is the decreto ley (Again. It was posted by xabiachica earlier on) No mention of 5 years or any years here.
> La Moncloa. 01/03/2019. Real Decreto-ley para hacer frente a las consecuencias de la retirada de Reino Unido de la UniÃ³n Europea sin acuerdo [Brexit/Noticias]
> You have to scroll down to *Ciudadanía*
> 
> 
> So, we will have to get a TIE before 31st Dec 2020, but don't panic! We don't have to do it yet, in fact we CAN'T do it yet as they haven't come up with the instructions of how to do it AND because the UK is still part of the EU.
> 
> So we have to wait for the UK to definitely leave, and that is not yet done, and we have to know how to do it because in this legal document from the Spanish government it is said that legal residents will be given special instructions on how to do this. Add in to the mix that the government who published this "decreto ley" is now fighting to stay in and there will be a general election on 28th April and after that local elections in May... Anything could happen!!
> 
> 
> PS I'm still not sure if 5 years or 10 years has actually been posted anywhere so please post if it's mentioned in some official capacity


/SNIP/ My point was that I have not sen anything on an official Brexit site from either Spain or the EU or the U.K. that states five years is automatically associated with post Brexit residency. I am aware you get permanent residency after five years under EU regulations I’ve seen nothing about it being the condition in Spain for a TIE card simply those resident here before 29th March. In fact one of the official links, I’m sure said make sure you have residency BEFORE 29th March not make sure your u have your Permanent residency card ie. http://www.interior.gob.es/web/serv...ion-europea/residencia-de-caracter-permanente

I’m really not trying to be difficult I just don’t understand where the post Brexit you must have been resident for over five years has come from.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Yes but that is with reference to current situation and all EU members I was referring to last month's decree pertaining only to to Brexit and there there is no mention of any number of years required for UK residents ( with existing legal residency) to be granted legal status to reside.


The decree states that those of us who are already recognised as permanent resident under EU rules will have that right recognised & that upon application a TIE will be granted 'almost automatically'.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> /SNIP/ My point was that I have not sen anything on an official Brexit site from either Spain or the EU or the U.K. that states five years is automatically associated with post Brexit residency. I am aware you get permanent residency after five years under EU regulations I’ve seen nothing about it being the condition in Spain for a TIE card simply those resident here


Put this



xabiaxica said:


> It's here Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior
> 
> 
> 
> it then goes on to give other options


& this 



xabiaxica said:


> The decree states that those of us who are already recognised as permanent resident under EU rules will have that right recognised & that upon application a TIE will be granted 'almost automatically'.


together & you have your answer


----------



## Megsmum

Thanks, that’s the bit I hadn’t read properly. I’m presuming this is in the event of no deal as I’m pretty sure all U.K. citizens here legally would be recognized if the withdrawal agreement is agreed ?


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Thanks, that’s the bit I hadn’t read properly. I’m presuming this is in the event of no deal as I’m pretty sure all U.K. citizens here legally would be recognized if the withdrawal agreement is agreed ?


Yes this is in case of a no-deal on 29th March.

However, even with a deal, at some point at the end of a withdrawal period we'll all have to apply for TIEs, & as yet it isn't clear what agreements, if any, there might be for recognising right to residency etc then.


----------



## Love Karma

There is much concern among several people I know that have not been here 5 years as of 29th March some albeit by only a few months is that when the time comes that we are told to apply for the TIE that they will have to go through the whole proof of income etc again and this time under the far more stringent current rules for Non E.U citizens. A worry for many but until the outcome of Brexit is finalised and the Spanish authorities issue the procedures to follow its all very much anyones guess as to how it will pan out.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> There is much concern among several people I know that have not been here 5 years as of 29th March some albeit by only a few months is that when the time comes that we are told to apply for the TIE that they will have to go through the whole proof of income etc again and this time under the far more stringent current rules for Non E.U citizens. A worry for many but until the outcome of Brexit is finalised and the Spanish authorities issue the procedures to follow its all very much anyones guess as to how it will pan out.


The last sentence is the most factual I’ve read so far... sadly, with something in the region of 20 days to go, the reality is, whilst all parties are publishing all sorts of information, much of which is not particularly clear or precise, in theory we are as much in the dark now as two years ago. Apart from getting our ducks in a row, and even then they might be the wrong ducks, we can do nothing but wait. 

I leave for the U.K. on the 27th March, can’t wait to see the rolling sky news ticker tape parade on Brexit day. 

We could go and register as Irish citizens but I don’t want to do that until I have to do that.


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> We could go and register as Irish citizens but I don’t want to do that until I have to do that.


A family in our town were discussing that very thing, but sadly its only the husband that has an Irish passport the wife and 2 boys have British passports. Conundrums all round


----------



## kaipa

Where has it ever said or been indicated that less than 5 years means reapplication under non EU immigration rules? For a start what would be the point in telling everyone to be legally resident before Brexit if it only applies to those with 5 years. Yours is an example of over thinking and then, hopefully not , causing undue worry. If you are going to say these things point us to a Spanish official document ( not some English local paper) to let us consider it else it really amount to deliberate scaring


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> A family in our town were discussing that very thing, but sadly its only the husband that has an Irish passport the wife and 2 boys have British passports. Conundrums all round


No, I’m Irish, my husband is British, he’d be my spouse a few more hoops but very doable


----------



## Love Karma

Unfortunately Kaipa these are the concerns and conversations that are being had in what are very uncertain and unprecedented times amongst a great many, and in real life conversations these are the concerns being expressed. Nothing to do with linking to set in stone rules and regulation post Brexit as there are none. Purely the views and worries of everyday folk in everyday situations during discussions all over Spain, not scaremongering just genuine concern.


----------



## kaipa

In other words just rumours.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I am a bit fed up with all this going around in circles, reposting links to official British and Spanish sites.
Could we have a sticky where official info sites are given and news bulletins of things like government statements both British and Spanish are given so that the real information doesn't get buried in the rumours and misunderstandings of us forum members?
Please


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am a bit fed up with all this going around in circles, reposting links to official British and Spanish sites.
> Could we have a sticky where official info sites are given and news bulletins of things like government statements both British and Spanish are given so that the real information doesn't get buried in the rumours and misunderstandings of us forum members?
> Please


From experience...no-one reads stickies unless they're told to!


This one shouldn't have much longer to run, anyway :fingerscrossed:


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Although it's not very clear, I think that is referring to non EU residents, isn't it? Look at this at the end of the page


Yes, non-EU citizens and it makes reference to visas. The end of the page refers to EU treaties, given they don't require visas or work authorisations etc.


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## kaipa

En caso de que ya dispusieran de residencia permanente como ciudadanos europeos el proceso será casi automático. En otro caso se les reconocerá la residencia temporal, en función del tiempo de residencia acreditado, conforme a la legislación general.

I would have thought the last sentence here suggests that those with less than 5 years will still be treated as legally resident until such time as they have accumulated 5 years


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am a bit fed up with all this going around in circles, reposting links to official British and Spanish sites.
> Could we have a sticky where official info sites are given and news bulletins of things like government statements both British and Spanish are given so that the real information doesn't get buried in the rumours and misunderstandings of us forum members?
> Please


We have this one:

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1471738-uk-gov-info.html


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## Pesky Wesky

Baldi, I'm pleading for a sticky where the bulletins/ publications are posted and where they can't be discussed leading to a long meandering thread full of conjecture and mistakes.
Obviously, the main aim of the forum is to discuss, but it's also to inform and important information is often lost or misinterpreted in a normal thread


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> From experience...no-one reads stickies unless they're told to!
> 
> 
> This one shouldn't have much longer to run, anyway :fingerscrossed:


 I would.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Baldi, I'm pleading for a sticky where the bulletins/ publications are posted and where they can't be discussed leading to a long meandering thread full of conjecture and mistakes.
> Obviously, the main aim of the forum is to discuss, but it's also to inform and important information is often lost or misinterpreted in a normal thread


Unless it were locked there'd be no way of stopping meandering discussion.

If it were locked, only mods could post on it.

I work full time & don't have time to keep something like that up to date, especially bearing in mind all official info from Spain is in Spanish & key points would have to be translated, & the sheer bulk of info coming out. 

I'll add a link to the Moncloa site to the FAQ sticky though, for anyone who only wants to follow that without any discussion.


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## Pesky Wesky

And people could be asked to look there to


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Unless it were locked there'd be no way of stopping meandering discussion.
> 
> If it were locked, only mods could post on it.
> 
> I work full time & don't have time to keep something like that up to date, especially bearing in mind all official info from Spain is in Spanish & key points would have to be translated, & the sheer bulk of info coming out.
> 
> I'll add a link to the Moncloa site to the FAQ sticky though, for anyone who only wants to follow that without any discussion.


 OK, obviously I'm not going to get a stickie.
As far as translation goes I don't see why everything has to be translated. It's a help of course, but I think people should take it on themselves. It's a given when you live in a foreign country - or should be


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## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> I would.


As would I.


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## Alcalaina

OK, this is how I see the various scenarios:

1. If the Withdrawal Agreement (i.e. "deal") is agreed next week, there will be a transition period after Brexit Day (29 March or whenever it is postponed to) during which time you have the same rights as you do now. Provided you have registered as an EU resident by the end of that period, your status will automatically change to that of non-EU residents and you will lose certain rights (e.g. freedom of movement, voting for MEPs) but retain others.

2. If the Withdrawal Agreement is rejected again, and Britain heads for a no-deal exit, one of two things will happen:

a) Brussels will reconsider the Costa Amendment and ring-fence the citizens' rights section of the Agreement across the EU;

b) Brussels will not accept said proposal, so the Spanish law will come into force as discussed above. Its conditions are much the same as as in the EU-wide Withdrawal Agreement.

Meanwhile the Healthcare (International Rights) Bill is progressing unopposed through the UK Parliament, and this will allow the British government to continue paying for its citizens' healthcare overseas via S1, EHIC or something similar.

So all we can do is make sure we are registered as EU residents, sit tight and see what happens.


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## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> OK, this is how I see the various scenarios:
> 
> 1. If the Withdrawal Agreement (i.e. "deal") is agreed next week, there will be a transition period after Brexit Day (29 March or whenever it is postponed to) during which time you have the same rights as you do now. Provided you have registered as an EU resident by the end of that period, your status will automatically change to that of non-EU residents and you will lose certain rights (e.g. freedom of movement, voting for MEPs) but retain others.
> 
> 2. If the Withdrawal Agreement is rejected again, and Britain heads for a no-deal exit, one of two things will happen:
> 
> a) Brussels will reconsider the Costa Amendment and ring-fence the citizens' rights section of the Agreement across the EU;
> 
> b) Brussels will not accept said proposal, so the Spanish law will come into force as discussed above. Its conditions are much the same as as in the EU-wide Withdrawal Agreement.
> 
> Meanwhile the Healthcare (International Rights) Bill is progressing unopposed through the UK Parliament, and this will allow the British government to continue paying for its citizens' healthcare overseas via S1, EHIC or something similar.
> 
> So all we can do is make sure we are registered as EU residents, sit tight and see what happens.


or, we get hold of Guido Fawkes (who Isobella is so fond of quoting) and get him to gather up some gunpowder, ready for November...


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## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> In other words just rumours.


Yes absolutely, but until we get a definitive outcome regarding Brexit and official Spanish Government statements on how the various assorted changes affect us and the regulations that are or will be put in place to accommodate and legalise the changes then pretty much all conversations will be rumour and speculation. Nobody knows, so as I said there are a great deal of concerned people in every day life having conversations over a coffee etc regarding this current uncertainty if you wish to call them rumours thats fine, I just like to think they are normal folk just concerned for their future and take comfort in discussing it with friends and acquaintances in similar positions. Also a great many of these people are elderly and retired here and aren't as switched on as you regarding internet and government websites and get all their news wrapped up with a huge amount of Fake news from newspapers and often biased TV news outlets, so yes they are worried and justifiably so and take great solace actually talking to others.


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## Pesky Wesky

Love Karma said:


> Yes absolutely, but until we get a definitive outcome regarding Brexit and official Spanish Government statements on how the various assorted changes affect us and the regulations that are or will be put in place to accommodate and legalise the changes then pretty much all conversations will be rumour and speculation. Nobody knows, so as I said there are a great deal of concerned people in every day life having conversations over a coffee etc regarding this current uncertainty if you wish to call them rumours thats fine, I just like to think they are normal folk just concerned for their future and take comfort in discussing it with friends and acquaintances in similar positions. Also a great many of these people are elderly and retired here and aren't as switched on as you regarding internet and government websites and get all their news wrapped up with a huge amount of Fake news from newspapers and often biased TV news outlets, so yes they are worried and justifiably so and take great solace actually talking to others.


 It's normal folk who start rumours, many a time not realising that that's what's happening. You share some "info" that you've got in good faith and perhaps just don't realise that the story doesn't stand up or is not backed up by real knowledge.
As such I would ask forum members to check things out before posting (on any subject), or make it plain in your post that what you're writing is an opinion or conjecture, as by writing on here you are actually writing to hundreds of people and so hundreds of people could be getting the wrong idea!
We all know that there are a lot of concerned people sharing their worries over a coffee as we are ourselves concerned members of that community!


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## kaipa

May I add that there are official Spanish gov sites that do outline protocols and it is those that many of us are trying to refer to so there can still be discussion without introducing rumour. If people have problems with these sites because they are in Spanish then that is understandable but simply throwing out curve balls that are then debated in English with all the accompanying cultural assumptions is perhaps not helpful given that many persons might use this forum for their first port of call.


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## Love Karma

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's normal folk who start rumours, many a time not realising that that's what's happening. You share some "info" that you've got in good faith and perhaps just don't realise that the story doesn't stand up or is not backed up by real knowledge.
> As such I would ask forum members to check things out before posting (on any subject), or make it plain in your post that what you're writing is an opinion or conjecture, as by writing on here you are actually writing to hundreds of people and so hundreds of people could be getting the wrong idea!
> We all know that there are a lot of concerned people sharing their worries over a coffee as we are ourselves concerned members of that community!


Yes totally agree with what you say, very wise words in this current minefield of information that is available on various platforms.


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## kaipa

More hope: I notice someone was lamenting the fact that only the husband had a claim to an Irish passport but not wife and kids. Well aside from stupid Brexit outcomes under EU law the wife and children would have right of residency through marriage to a EU citizen. So it isn't a problem. The same applies to anyone who is divorced from an EU citizen but was married for more than three years and has lived in the host country for a minimum of a year whilst married.They just need to satisfy normal EU citizens residency requirements as they can no longer be supported by ex spouse Having children who are minors but whose other spouse is EU.Now these laws are fixed and have nothing to do with Brexit so it might be something that people wish to consider if they feel Brexit is getting too stressful


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## Alcalaina

*Pedro Sánchez on Brexit*

What a good analysis. Worth spending five minutes of your time to read it (it's in English). I really hope he remains our PM after 28 April.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/1...?id_externo_nwl=newsletter_inenglish20190315m


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> What a good analysis. Worth spending five minutes of your time to read it (it's in English). I really hope he remains our PM after 28 April.
> 
> https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/1...?id_externo_nwl=newsletter_inenglish20190315m


When Im back on my feet I will be actively working towards this hoped for outcome,
Yo con Pedro!

He hugged and kissed me at a rally in Malaga a couple of years ago. Everyone else only got selfies...There was a big crowd around him so I stood back and shouted ‘Pedro, soy Mary, militante de PSOE’. He pushed through the crowd, came over to me, asked where I was from and hugged me, to great envy all around.

He is a sincere politician and lovely man.


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## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> What a good analysis. Worth spending five minutes of your time to read it (it's in English). I really hope he remains our PM after 28 April.
> 
> https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/1...?id_externo_nwl=newsletter_inenglish20190315m


It's a pity that it takes so long to get citizenship to be able to vote...


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## iwanttoliveinthesun

*Additional Steps*

"British residents in Spain, they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status. For those who already have permanent residency, “the process will be nearly automatic.” For the others, there will be additional steps to take".

I wonder what these additional steps might be and when they will be clarified? 

This does leave a lot of people in limbo, as it must effect a large number of expats.


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## Pesky Wesky

iwanttoliveinthesun said:


> "British residents in Spain, they will have to apply for a foreigner identity card before January 2021 to prove their legal residency status. For those who already have permanent residency, “the process will be nearly automatic.” For the others, there will be additional steps to take".
> 
> I wonder what these additional steps might be and when they will be clarified?
> 
> This does leave a lot of people in limbo, as it must effect a large number of expats.


 I'm not sure how many people will be "left in limbo", and no one will be as they are people who have not registered, who have lived under the radar. In reality it shouldn't affect anyone as the registering process is something that has been required since 2007 I believe.
People who find themselves in this position will probably have to prove more financial security, more limited time allowed in Spain (and other EU countries), stricter control in airports, maybe the need to apply for and pay for a visa?? Who knows?


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## Overandout

This is just a guess, pure speculation, but I would not be surprised to find that the Spanish authorities will check that those without permanent certs are still complying with the registration requirements. 
Even on here we see people talking of how to obtain health insurance to register with the intention of cancelling as soon as they have the green cert. This is illegal as we are required to comply with the ley de extranjeria all the time while we reside in Spain, so a check seems logical.


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> This is just a guess, pure speculation, but I would not be surprised to find that the Spanish authorities will check that those without permanent certs are still complying with the registration requirements.
> Even on here we see people talking of how to obtain health insurance to register with the intention of cancelling as soon as they have the green cert. This is illegal as we are required to comply with the ley de extranjeria all the time while we reside in Spain, so a check seems logical.


Sounds like a good idea but, it will probably be up to each area as opposed to a national thing, so each area would have to make up their mind if it's in their interest or not, and also I just don't think there are enough officials to do the checking


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## kaipa

If you need to replace your green card and you have less than five years then you are asked to do the whole process again I.e show you have healthcover, sufficient funds, work contract etc. If you have over five years you just show your passport. I would imagine something like this will apply after Brexit. Still with a bit of luck we may get a long extension plus the addition of a 21 month grace period to obtain new cards so all in all many people with just 1 or 2 years now could be looking at 5 years by the time it all happens or ( hopefully) not!!


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## Megsmum

I think we will be out end of May and to be honest I’m getting to the point where I just want to know. The prospect of a long extension and this still being the main topic fills me with dread

I don’t think the EU is going to hang around much longer for Parliament to get its act together.


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## Alcalaina

The Spanish government page on what will happen British residents has been updated.

La Moncloa. RESIDENCIA [Brexit/Cómo Prepararse]

No English version yet but to summarise:

*If the deal is approved:*

- Provided you have registered as resident before the leaving date (green sheet of paper, card or whatever) you will have an automatic right to apply for a TIE and will not have to provide proof of income etc.

- If you haven't yet registered as resident, or arrive in Spain after the leaving date, you can apply directly for a TIE as a "beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement" (i.e. on the same terms as an EU citizen).

- Working and study rights continue as now, you don't need to apply for additional permits.

- Everyone (including children) must have a TIE by 31 December 2020 or whenever the transition period ends.

*If Britain leaves without a deal:*

- The same terms apply as long as you were registered as a resident before the exit date. If not, you will have to apply for a TIE on the same terms as non-EU nationals.

Please feel free to correct anything I have misinterpreted! I'm sure I've posted this before but it's all getting a bit Groundhog Day.


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## kaipa

Just had a quick look and it seems pretty good. No need to worry about our jobs etc if everything is in order even if no deal. Whew! Can relax a bit finally. Thank God Spain behaves with a sense of responsibility. I feel the UK government have effectively abandoned us. Shame on them. They had made no effort to reassure us and even if they had we would have been fools to trust them.


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## Trubrit

*even more confused*

I arrived in Spain in 2011 and have the green NIE certificate, When enquiring at the Guardia Civil about permanent residency the officer stated that the green certificate is permanent residency, was he right?


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## Bevdeforges

Not to rain on your parade, but the site you posted your link for isn't connected with the Spanish government. It's a non-profit organization and they admit that this is their interpretation of the information they have. 

Given the current state of confusion (turmoil? chaos?) over Brexit back in the UK, I think there is still a ways to go before you will find really "reliable" information concerning Brits living anywhere in the EU. As the old saying goes, "Keep Calm and Carry On."


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## snikpoh

Trubrit said:


> I arrived in Spain in 2011 and have the green NIE certificate, When enquiring at the Guardia Civil about permanent residency the officer stated that the green certificate is permanent residency, was he right?


It's not a green NIE certificate. It's proof that you've signed on the list of foreigners and have registered. Nothing to do with your NIE (although that is printed on it).

The green card/certificate ONLY becomes permanent after 5 years - but it seems it isn't quite the same as it being stated. Even though that's what we have always been told.


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## kaipa

Moncloa has just updated their site with much more detail than the CAB site. This is in Spanish and is the only official site at moment. CAB is not a government site and makes its own translations. People need to realise this and not quote the CAB site as official.


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## Lynn R

I see from the updated information on the La Moncloa website that it has now been clarified that the Spanish Government's guarantee that UK citizens in Spain will continue to have access to healthcare is conditional upon the UK Government continuing to pay Spain for said healthcare. This is the relevant section:-

"With respect to access to healthcare, Article 13 of the Royal Decree-Law establishes that Spain will continue to provide healthcare in Spain to UK nationals under the same terms and conditions determined before the UK's withdrawal from the EU, provided that the UK:

Guarantees the same conditions to people who have the right to receive medical care in the UK paid for by Spain. This reciprocity will be the object of a verification procedure 2 months after the entry into force of the Decree-Law;
Guarantees the repayment of the costs for medical care provided in Spain by its health services under the same terms as at present."


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## snikpoh

kaipa said:


> Moncloa has just updated their site with much more detail than the CAB site. This is in Spanish and is the only official site at moment. CAB is not a government site and makes its own translations. People need to realise this and not quote the CAB site as official.


If you're going to quote a different (better) source, please give a link. I can find no information by just Googling "Moncloa".


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## Overandout

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...h-govt-makes-plans-brits-after-brexit-23.html


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## Love Karma

Update as of today
http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx


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## snikpoh

Love Karma said:


> Update as of today
> http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx


Thanks for the link.

What a very POORLY structured document! Very, very hard to actually follow it at all.


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## kaipa

It's a straightforward translation from the Spanish one that was there on Tuesday not sure if that is the cause.


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## Alcalaina

Why have we got two threads on this topic?


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## xabiaxica

Bevdeforges said:


> Not to rain on your parade, but the site you posted your link for isn't connected with the Spanish government. It's a non-profit organization and they admit that this is their interpretation of the information they have.
> 
> Given the current state of confusion (turmoil? chaos?) over Brexit back in the UK, I think there is still a ways to go before you will find really "reliable" information concerning Brits living anywhere in the EU. As the old saying goes, "Keep Calm and Carry On."


And what's more it's a competeing service. Lay people with no more real knowledge of what is happeneing than some of us here.

The link Alcalaina posted a couple of hours earlier is the official one.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Why have we got two threads on this topic?


I'm back from a few days in hospital getting my new hip.

Can't imagine why there were two threads.

Now there's one


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## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> I'm back from a few days in hospital getting my new hip.
> 
> Can't imagine why there were two threads.
> 
> Now there's one


I'm glad to hear it, hope everything went well.


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## baldilocks

xabiaxica said:


> I'm back from a few days in hospital getting my new hip.
> 
> Can't imagine why there were two threads.
> 
> Now there's one


Hope you are OK. That is something that maybe in the offing in the dim distant future around here with both SWMBO and me.

The reason there were two thread was there was one thread that was getting bogged down with various diversions and somebody got so frustrated that another was started w.e.f. 16/1


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Hope you are OK. That is something that maybe in the offing in the dim distant future around here with both SWMBO and me.
> 
> The reason there were two thread was there was one thread that was getting bogged down with various diversions and somebody got so frustrated that another was started w.e.f. 16/1


No, I was talking about the info from the Spanish govt on what happens if there’s no deal etc.

All sorted now, thanks XX.


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## Alcalaina

The Spanish government decree on arrangements post-Brexit, discussed earlier in this thread, was approved in Congress yesterday. It was opposed by the PP, but approved by everyone else.

That should put a lot of people's mind at rest. Even if the PP win the elections, it would be very difficult for them to reverse it.


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## Michael Kelly

Here is an update from the Guardian on this. EU plans for British citizens in a leaked document.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...trasts-for-britons-in-eu-after-no-deal-brexit


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