# Overstay for Shengen citizen



## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

Hi, everyone
My husband is Swiss and he arrived to visit me on 19th Feb. We assumed, that he has 90 days to stay in UAE, so he was leaving today. At the border they made him to pay overstay fine, because they said he already used 14 days of stay during his previous visit (23rd Nov - 7th Dec)
The point is, that after leaving in December he entered the country on employment permit and it was cancelled due to some reason, so he went back to his home country in Jan, so there was a gap between tourist visas and noone informed him at the border, that he has less than 90 days to stay.
Does anyone knows is it possible to file a complain for fine disagreement or something like this?


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

No idea but the Law is very clear, and ignorance of it is no excuse. 

I'd move on as the fines will be insignificant compared with trying a fruitless appeal over what is a simple open/shut case. 

He was here more than 90 days in a 180 day period so did overstay. Sorry.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

AED200 for the first day, 100 each day thereafter.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

The law is saying clearly also, that a person cannot have two open visas in same time, correct? So when he entered with employment permit, tourist visa supposed to be closed. Am I right?


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> No idea but the Law is very clear, and ignorance of it is no excuse.
> 
> I'd move on as the fines will be insignificant compared with trying a fruitless appeal over what is a simple open/shut case.
> 
> He was here more than 90 days in a 180 day period so did overstay. Sorry.


I`ve submitted eComplain 
Let`s see, what will happen
I see it as system error, I just don`t want to pay for that


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

sheer said:


> I see it as system error


You would of course, but in what way exactly ?

He stayed in for more than 90 days in a 180 day period - where's the 'error' in that fact ?

Thats why the penalty. Its pretty clear.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> sheer said:
> 
> 
> > I see it as system error/
> ...


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

sheer said:


> He came 19-Feb, left 15-May - 87 days
> Where is overstay?


He came in 23rd November and within the 180 days from that date, he stayed more than 90 days. 

As I said, its pretty clear. You're fixated on the 90 days and keep ignoring the 180 day window.

The type of Visa is irrelevant - he was here more than 90 days in a 180 day window. He could come in/out any number of times on the same or different type of visa as long as he isnt 'in' for more than 90 days within the 180 day window.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> He came in 23rd November and within the 180 days from that date, he stayed more than 90 days.
> 
> As I said, its pretty clear. You're fixated on the 90 days and keep ignoring the 180 day window.


ok, see the story:

25-May-15 - 15-Jul-2015 - tourist visa
15-Jul-15 - 31-Jul-15 - outside for vacation
31-Jul-15 - 11-Aug-15 - tourist visa
11-Aug-15 - 23-Nov-15 - residence
23-Nov-15 - 7-Dec-15 - tourist visa
7-Dec-15 - 17-Jan-16 - residence
17-Jan-16 - 19-Feb-16 - outside 
19-Feb-16 - 15-May-16 - tourist

Where is overstay?? why they calculate from November and not from May or July?? There is a residence in between, so how is it possible, that tourist visa is still valid and counting?


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

sheer said:


> why they calculate from November and not from May or July??


They count 180 days from any date in during or at the end of a period. The clock doesnt stop because he leaves or re-enters - it just keeps ticking up to 180 days



sheer said:


> There is a residence in between, so how is it possible, that tourist visa is still valid and counting?


There isn't - you said he came in on an employment permit which is NOT the same as residency. Residency is when you get the big orange/pink stamp in your passport. You said the employment permit was cancelled so I assume he never actually got actual residency and so the tourist clock kept ticking and the days racking up.

Did he actually get a Residency Stamp in his passport ?


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> They count 180 days from any date in during or at the end of a period. The clock doesnt stop because he leaves or re-enters - it just keeps ticking up to 180 days


What 'any date' means? Do they choose it randomly? Then how is it possible to track remaining days?



twowheelsgood said:


> There isn't - you said he came in on an employment permit which is NOT the same as residency. Residency is when you get the big orange/pink stamp in your passport. You said the employment permit was cancelled so I assume he never actually got actual residency and so the tourist clock kept ticking and the days racking up.
> 
> Did he actually get a Residency Stamp in his passport ?


last one - no, we had to cancel his permit 
but normally they cannot issue the permit if there is active tourist visa, that is why I assume some error is there.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

sheer said:


> What 'any date' means? Do they choose it randomly? Then how is it possible to track remaining days?


Good grief this is hard work. Any date at all - they can simply count 180 days from every date you are in the country and count the number of days present in the country from each and every day of the year. Computers do that you know - its not rocket science. I could do an Excel spreadsheet but to be honest, I have paint to watch drying.



sheer said:


> last one - no, we had to cancel his permit
> but normally they cannot issue the permit if there is active tourist visa, that is why I assume some error is there.


So then its very very very clear. No residency was achieved to stop the clock so he has been here for over 90 days in a 180 day period. The point about active tourist visa is irrelevant - he didnt exit and come back in and get residency so its still an active ticking clock from arrival on a tourist visa.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be using English and without shouting.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> So then its very very very clear. No residency was achieved to stop the clock so he has been here for over 90 days in a 180 day period. The point about active tourist visa is irrelevant - he didnt exit and come back in and get residency so its still an active ticking clock from arrival on a tourist visa.
> 
> I'm not sure how much clearer I can be using English and without shouting.


ok, let`s finish then
it`s clear for you and from my side it`s clear for me
i logged a complaint and may update you with results if you`re interested


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Basically, you enter the country on say, Jan 1st, then in the next 180 days (to end of June), you're allowed to be in the country for 90 days. Then, come 1st July, the clock re-sets.

It ain't rocket science!


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

The Rascal said:


> Basically, you enter the country on say, Jan 1st, then in the next 180 days (to end of June), you're allowed to be in the country for 90 days. Then, come 1st July, the clock re-sets.
> 
> It ain't rocket science!


ok, then
let`s assume, that I agree, that I`ve entered the country in November, that means, that in June I can come back for another 90 days, right?
but immigration officer is saying, that he cannot come back for 3 month
it the law saying something about 3 month gap between 180 days windows?


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

I see something wrong here
2 option:
1. he came in November, overstayed and can come back for another 90 days in, let`s say, June, because 6 months is over
2. he came in February, spent 87 days in UAE (no fine) and can`t come back till 180 days are over

it cannot be both, right?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sheer said:


> I see something wrong here
> 2 option:
> 1. he came in November, overstayed and can come back for another 90 days in, let`s say, June, because 6 months is over
> 2. he came in February, spent 87 days in UAE (no fine) and can`t come back till 180 days are over
> ...


They count back from the day he last left. so count back 180 days from May 16th (takes you to mid Nov 2015) & then count up how many days he was in country

You don't have to go back that far to see that he was in country for more than 90 days in 180 - he was in country for a total of 128 days in 168. Since 168 is less than 180 he had clearly overstayed

most recent stay 19-Feb-16 - 15-May-16 - 87 days
previous stay 7-Dec-15 - 17-Jan-16 - 41 days

87 + 41 = 128


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> They count back from the day he last left. so count back 180 days from May 16th (takes you to mid Nov 2015) & then count up how many days he was in country
> 
> You don't have to go back that far to see that he was in country for more than 90 days in 180 - he was in country for a total of 128 days in 168. Since 168 is less than 180 he had clearly overstayed
> 
> ...


7-Dec-15 - 17-Jan-16 - 41 days - he entered with employment entry permit
Fortunately, even immigration doesn`t do such weird calculation


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sheer said:


> 7-Dec-15 - 17-Jan-16 - 41 days - he entered with employment entry permit
> Fortunately, even immigration doesn`t do such weird calculation


Which I understand was cancelled - so his stay was treated as a tourist stay.

Which is why it has been added to the most recent stay.

Even without that though, if you count his tourist stay Nov-Dec & add that to the most recent stay - it still comes to more than 90 days in 180, since counting back from May 16th takes you to mid Nov.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> Which I understand was cancelled - so his stay was treated as a tourist stay.
> 
> Which is why it has been added to the most recent stay.
> 
> Even without that though, if you count his tourist stay Nov-Dec & add that to the most recent stay - it still comes to more than 90 days in 180, since counting back from May 16th takes you to mid Nov.


yep, they included that nov-dec, that came to 10+ days of overstay, dec-jan was not calculated as overstay. how it can be tourist? if i`m coming with employment permit and have to cancel it - I was there on emplyment entry permit, I`m able to stay in country for 2 month to finalize residence. but if i can`t stamp the visa - it doesn`t mean that I was tourist (for my country we need special tourist visa, for example)


then he can come back in june, right? which they are saying not possible


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sheer said:


> yep, they included that nov-dec, that came to 10+ days of overstay, dec-jan was not calculated as overstay. how it can be tourist? if i`m coming with employment permit and have to cancel it - I was there on emplyment entry permit, I`m able to stay in country for 2 month to finalize residence. but if i can`t stamp the visa - it doesn`t mean that I was tourist (for my country we need special tourist visa, for example)
> 
> 
> then he can come back in june, right? which they are saying not possible


It's a rolling 90 in 180. If he were to return in June he would have had to have been in country for less than 90 days in the previous 180. He hasn't.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> It's a rolling 90 in 180. If he were to return in June he would have had to have been in country for less than 90 days in the previous 180. He hasn't.


omg, that`s really weird:confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sheer said:


> omg, that`s really weird:confused2:


Not at all weird. Just the way it works.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> Not at all weird. Just the way it works.


when they just implemented the rule, one year ago, they told, that nothing will change, you`ll be able to do visa runs and so on, just the length of stay will be extended
but it looks different now


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## Chocoholic (Oct 29, 2012)

No for Schengen, you can still do visa runs, BUT you can't be in the country more than 90 days in any 180 day period. So for instance, my husband as a German passport, we had to get his residency stamped in before the end of the 90 days otherwise he'd get charged overstay.

Lots of people are getting charged overstay, it's even happening with 30 day visas if you go out within the 30 days, they're counting the 'out' days as well.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

Chocoholic said:


> No for Schengen, you can still do visa runs, BUT you can't be in the country more than 90 days in any 180 day period. So for instance, my husband as a German passport, we had to get his residency stamped in before the end of the 90 days otherwise he'd get charged overstay.
> 
> Lots of people are getting charged overstay, it's even happening with 30 day visas if you go out within the 30 days, they're counting the 'out' days as well.


for residence it`s clear, but it`s not visa run
visa run means you spend in the country 90 days, cross the border and come back for another 90 days again


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## Chocoholic (Oct 29, 2012)

sheer said:


> for residence it`s clear, but it`s not visa run
> visa run means you spend in the country 90 days, cross the border and come back for another 90 days again


NO! With the new rules, IF you're in the country for the full 90 days, you have to leave and stay out for 90 before you can re-enter. It's 90 days WITHIN any 180 day period.

This is where you're getting confused.

Only British passport and a few others can still do the visa run, go out and come straight back in again. Schengen have to go out, stay out, then return.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

sheer said:


> omg, that`s really weird:confused2:


90 days in a rolling 180 days period is not weird - Schengen countries have been applying this to all tourist visa holders for ages. 
The calculation they have done is for the number of days in 180 while he was in UAE as a tourist (which captures the Nov period, and does not includes the periods he was on the employment entry permit). Just because he got the employment entry permit between two entries as a tourist does not make the counter reset to zero.

Since he has already been here for 87 days from Feb 19, he cannot be back till about mid August on a tourist visa.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

rsinner said:


> 90 days in a rolling 180 days period is not weird - Schengen countries have been applying this to all tourist visa holders for ages.
> The calculation they have done is for the number of days in 180 while he was in UAE as a tourist (which captures the Nov period, and does not includes the periods he was on the employment entry permit). Just because he got the employment entry permit between two entries as a tourist does not make the counter reset to zero.
> 
> Since he has already been here for 87 days from Feb 19, he cannot be back till about mid August on a tourist visa.


ok, then why it was not calculated from July, so the nov-dec visit was within previous 180 days?


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## Chocoholic (Oct 29, 2012)

It;s pointless trying to argue the fact. It is what it is. complain if you like, but it'll get you nowhere. My friend tried that recently and just had an immigration officer standing yelling at her and others asking who the hell they thought they were to question anything.

Pay the fine, move on, stick to the rules.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

Chocoholic said:


> It;s pointless trying to argue the fact. It is what it is. complain if you like, but it'll get you nowhere. My friend tried that recently and just had an immigration officer standing yelling at her and others asking who the hell they thought they were to question anything.
> 
> Pay the fine, move on, stick to the rules.


i can imagine
the fine is paid, he flew back today
I submitted the complaint, let`s see, what will happen

It`s easier to follow the rules, when the rules are clear if someone informed him in February, that he has not 90, but 75 days to stay in UAE - he`d leave earlier, but we were calculating and were sure, that everything is according to regulations


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

sheer said:


> ok, then why it was not calculated from July, so the nov-dec visit was within previous 180 days?


I think you should open excel, type in the dates and calculate the number of days (which I just did). 
On 7-Dec-15 the previous 180 days started 10 Jun 15. He had stayed a total of 63 days in that 180 day period. (10 Jun to 15 Jul, 31 Jul to 11 Aug, 23 Nov to 07 Dec).

He DOES NOT have to stay out for 3 months between visits. He has to just make sure that he stays for 90 days in any 180 day period ON A TOURIST VISA.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

sheer said:


> ok, then why it was not calculated from July, so the nov-dec visit was within previous 180 days?


Just count back 180 days from whenever he wants to come again.

Then count up how many days he was in country during those 180 days.

For instance, if he wants to come on July 16th, count back & it takes you to somewhere mid January. So count how many days from that date he was in country.

If for example that figure was 80 days, he could return for 10 days.

BUT because he has already used 87 days since mid February, it will be mid August before those days are cleared & he can return.


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## Chocoholic (Oct 29, 2012)

rsinner said:


> He DOES NOT have to stay out for 3 months between visits. He has to just make sure that he stays for 90 days in any 180 day period ON A TOURIST VISA.


IF you read my post properly, I said IF he'd stayed an entire 90 days in one go, THEN he would have to leave for 90 days.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> Just count back 180 days from whenever he wants to come again.
> 
> Then count up how many days he was in country during those 180 days.
> 
> ...


makes sense
thnx


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Chocoholic said:


> So for instance, my husband as a German passport, we had to get his residency stamped in before the end of the 90 days otherwise he'd get charged overstay.
> .


Thank goodness the UK is outside of Shengen,

Vote OUT on the 23rd of June....


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

sheer said:


> i can imagine
> the fine is paid, he flew back today
> I submitted the complaint, let`s see, what will happen
> 
> It`s easier to follow the rules, when the rules are clear if someone informed him in February, that he has not 90, but 75 days to stay in UAE - he`d leave earlier, but we were calculating and were sure, that everything is according to regulations


RTFI

It's totally clear.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

Chocoholic said:


> IF you read my post properly, I said IF he'd stayed an entire 90 days in one go, THEN he would have to leave for 90 days.


I agree. 
I just wasn't sure if the OP was getting the concept!


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## denabs (Mar 20, 2009)

my wife overstayed for about 70 days in total (french passport)
processed her residency visa and had to go to immigration at Dxb airport to pay the fine, close to 6k. Talked with one of the people in charge and he told me there is another way. Pay around 400AED, book a flight and show them the actual tickets, take the flight out and return within 7 days. Residency visa processed stamped without any issues after that. 
Not sure if this is a rule or not, was just happy not to pay the fine.
We just booked a long weekend in Qatar.


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## wowgifts (May 15, 2016)

denabs said:


> my wife overstayed for about 70 days in total (french passport)
> processed her residency visa and had to go to immigration at Dxb airport to pay the fine, close to 6k. Talked with one of the people in charge and he told me there is another way. Pay around 400AED, book a flight and show them the actual tickets, take the flight out and return within 7 days. Residency visa processed stamped without any issues after that.
> Not sure if this is a rule or not, was just happy not to pay the fine.
> We just booked a long weekend in Qatar.


my husband got fine in the airport on a flight back to Geneva
had no time to argue


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