# The 'Dark Side' to Integration



## DutchActually (Feb 18, 2014)

Hi forum!

Full disclosure first: I am Dutch, I live in the Netherlands. So I am not an expat. 

I am married to an American. She has been living here for well over a year now, and she enjoys living here. By and large. Apparently, it is difficult for her to discuss with me why integrating here is so problematic for her. She accuses me of being too cavalier about the whole thing, and that I'm being too defensive when she feels _otherized_ by the Dutch. I'll qualify that word below.

Apparently, I'm entirely stuck in my opinion that it is quite easy to get settled, and find your footing, in the Netherlands. Yes, people will look at you when they hear an accent. Yes, people will ask you where you're from a thousand times and volunteer their experiences with your country, and not always in a subtle manner. Yes, people will strike up a conversation, simply based on you _not being from here_ (including the inescapable "And when will you go back?" question). I've read _The Undutchables_, I get all of that.

To me, as a Dutchman, that is mostly innocent, welcoming, understandably annoying, but not in any way vicious or _otherist_. Therefore, I cannot seem to address this issue without getting into a very mutually defensive fencing match with my wife. But I need to get this right.

According to my wife, there is a much darker, much more insidious nature to the _otherism_ in the Netherlands. No matter how well-known your culture is (and, let's face it, Americans are considered well-known), no matter how well you learn and/or speak the language (my wife hasn't done that yet), no matter how social or sociable you are (we both are not, really), there is a perceptible, not always hidden, undertone of _otherism_ in Dutch society that is disconcerting, offputting, disheartening.

It is my wife's contention that, no matter how well you integrate and adapt in the Netherlands, you will _always_ be _other_, you will _always_ be an _outsider_, always non-Dutch. People don't see you as a person, but as (in this case) an American person living here, and any conversation will immediately focus on that aspect. And it has a discriminating effect. It sets you apart, and not in an extraordinary way, but in an extraneous way, so to speak.

I'd love to know more about this, but my wife keeps telling me that I get defensive and apologetic, that I downplay anything negative she brings to the table. And I probably do all of that, because I come from a background of 'If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much, and the Olympics aren't helping'. 

But I need to understand this, or it will break us.

So, please tell me, and don't hold back. What is the dark side of life in the Netherlands as an expat? What is negative, insidious, disheartening about trying to fit in here? Is it really impossible to just be accepted into Dutch society, or even to just be considered 'Dutch enough not to be noticed for your otherness'? Or is an expat in the Netherlands always just that? An expat, an extra, an extraneous?

Help me understand. Thank you.


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## DutchActually (Feb 18, 2014)

I can't post a link right now, but if you Google *"The Expat Unfriendly Netherlands"* you may find a blog post to base or expand your remarks on.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I have to say that it isn't only the Dutch. I know exactly what she's talking about from my time here in France. Maybe it's a stage we expats all go through, though now, only 20 years after my arrival here in France, I can kind of look back on it and laugh.

It's tough at first, when you first realize that there is literally no one around you who shares anything resembling the same references. Sure, everyone thinks they know life in the US from all the television shows, if nothing else, but those of us who grew up there understand where the TV differs from our own experience. 

You'd go through much the same thing if you moved over to the States with her. Different foods, different points of reference, different styles, different courtesies, etc. It really gets on your nerves at a certain point. You just have to decide at some point that here is where you want to stay and you have to hunker down and "assimilate" in whatever way you find works for you. 

Oh, and it helps if you make a trip back "home" and find that everyone back there has gone nuts and is nothing like you remember and the old homestead is going to hell in a handcart. (But that takes several years away.)

However, she is right in the sense that we will always be considered "foreigners" in some sense, even after taking local nationality. The best thing you can do is try to be sympathetic and don't try too hard to "fix" things for her. It's something she will have to work through herself. (I did - even if it took me nearly 10 years...)
Cheers,
Bev


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## DutchActually (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks Bev.

I have to add, though .. when I posted that follow-up pointing to that blog post, I had actually only managed to read the blog post _itself_. 

I have now finished reading the _comments_, which are extremely harsh, and very uniform in nature. 

I made my wife read the same post and comments, and she told me that that was what she was trying to tell me, but that I kept blowing her off (which I did). And indeed, any defense or counterargument I might have (had) is disarmed by yet another comment under that post.

The Dutch are *******s (ok, ok, _sphincters_) when it comes to dealing with expats. There you have it. And I apologize.

To anyone reading this who has _not_ yet read that post with its comments, do so, and perhaps get back on here if you still feel like it. 

For me, as a Dutchie, this is the eye-opener from hell. I am ashamed.


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## Gioppino (Aug 25, 2012)

DutchActually, thanks for bringing this subject to the fore.

I believe that the Dutch see themselves as extremely open minded, tolerant , egalitarian and inclusive. But to give you a term of comparison, I am Italian and the Italians see themselves the same way and probably even more tolerant. However ask any non-EU citizen you know and they will probably tell you that Italians are most racist and narrow minded people on earth.

How is this possible?

I do think that you Dutch are indeed very tolerant (sometimes to much for my taste), but nevertheless this is a small country and the decision makers, form the landlord to the recruiting agent, from the Gemeente officer to the politicians, are white Dutch people who cannot put themselves in anybody else's shoes.

They don't have to, I know, but this explains why "we" non Dutch feel alienated and frustrated after the honeymoon period with your country runs out.

I can only tell you that I've been here for almost 3 months, having been here before for short periods, and I regret very much that I have a rental contract to fulfill, otherwise I'd have left for good. If I stayed here, I would never be integrated.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I can tell you that over in the French forum, we periodically have long discussions on a similar topic - complaining about the French and their "unwelcoming" attitudes toward foreigners. (Though in France, it's sometimes that way toward any newcomer in a small town.) I know I keep telling the newbies here in France that it isn't that the French are unwelcoming, it's just that they play by a very different set of rules and it can take a while to figure those rules out.

And like your wife, I am married to a local person. Took me a while to realize it, but he genuinely doesn't understand why certain things here drive me crazy. But then again, he grew up in France and accepts the status quo because "that's the way it has always been." It took him making a couple of comments about the US before it dawned on me that, of course the stuff I find strange and alienating here is second nature to him. And the fact that I took offense at some of the comments he made about my homeland finally convinced me that maybe I shouldn't be voicing all my off the cuff observations about France to him unedited.

One thing that would help a bit would be for your wife to find some sort of expat or newcomers group where she could meet a few other "foreigners" (whether Americans or others). It really does help to be able to grumble freely with other foreigners about all those strange things you have noticed - and not to be in danger of offending your native born spouse or family members all the time.
Cheers,
Bev


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## xxxxxjenniferlynn (Nov 9, 2013)

"It is my wife's contention that, no matter how well you integrate and adapt in the Netherlands, you will always be other, you will always be an outsider, always non-Dutch. People don't see you as a person, but as (in this case) an American person living here, and any conversation will immediately focus on that aspect. And it has a discriminating effect. It sets you apart, and not in an extraordinary way, but in an extraneous way, so to speak."



Hello, I've just seen your post via Bev on the French forum. I've lived in France for 36 years (I married a French man) and after 10 years in the UK we moved to France with our two children.
The first two years were SO difficult for me and I resented my husband's joy at living in France again while I was so miserable coming to terms with all the 'otherness' of our new life.
In the end we separated. I stayed on in France because after two years our children were 'French' and I found work, and it was just the easier option.

You come to realise that, while it's true that people first see you as a 'foreign' person living here, this can also be said of anyone with a 'difference' whether it be their foreigness, a handicap, etc - but it's just a first impression, and not necessarily negative. Your difference will always be there but when people know you better your difference becomes a secondary issue - you are yourself and the otherness you present becomes an enrichment.

Be patient, it takes time to adapt and your wife is a long way in distance from her roots. There are no shortcuts. Meeting other people living through or having lived through a similar experience is a good idea.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

What an interesting thread!
Can't wait to read the blog that someone has made a reference to!
I am English, living in Spain for 25+, married to a Spaniard, and with a Spanish daughter. 
The topic of intergration has come up many a time on the Spanish forum too. What is it, do you want it, what does it mean??

Language has much to do with "integrating". I speak excellent Spanish, but with an accent. It doesn't bother me - I am understood with only occasional misunderstandings and I can understand 95% at what comes back at me, but it seems it does bother the Spanish at times, usually those who don't have great language skills themselves. Still got an accent eh?? I'll hear, and I'll say something like, but here we are communicating, aren't we, isn't that wonderful?? Of course I'd love to speak accentless, flawless Spanish, but it isn't going to happen; I'm not a robot and I can't get rid of the accent. 
Where I live there aren't many Brits or English speakers, so I'll always be identified amongst them as the English woman or probably a more derogatory term_ La Guiri_. I'd prefer not to be known as that as I don't identify with my nationality and don't like to be identified by my nationality but my friends have got beyond the accent, and the nationality, and recognise me as Jane, not the English woman.
I have a brother in law who often, in a jokey way will make a reference to the way the English do this or that, or my queen etc and it does get on my nerves that her still treats me as if I've just got off the boat, but a while I go I told him he'd have to stop making these references as I've now spent more time here than I ever did there, and I think it made him think a bit.
I agree with what someone else here wrote that you will always be identified by your differences, the woman in the wheelchair, the blond, the big (read fat) guy, or the American/ Greek/ Chinese guy.
I get far, far more out of living in Spain than annoyances and unhappiness at being an English woman living abroad. I have embraced many areas of Spanish life so I am prepared to put up with being the token Brit at times. But, that dark side to intergration can be there, especially in the first 10 years...
Thanks for "listening"


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## Gioppino (Aug 25, 2012)

Donutz said:


> Most unfortunate that you wish to depart again Gioppino. Indeed there are some arrogant politicians and some officials (especially at the IND: Dutch Immigration Department). The current atmosphere is one of anti-foreigner.


I don't blame the officials. I blame a certain culture.

I know speak decent, although shaky Dutch. I have done my round of agencies. The same agencies that 3 months ago told me my Dutch was not good enough now say that "I have an accent" and that they have no problems with me personally, but their client wouldn't want to deal with me.

I call this "compassionate racism". I see this as a message that they don't want to deal with me. when you don't have a job or you are underemployed, you can't expect to integrate.

However my Dutch was good enough when they received my check.


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## xxxxxjenniferlynn (Nov 9, 2013)

I only have experience of living in France, but from reading the posts on this thread it seems to me that the situation in the Netherlands is quite a bit different.

Expats in France often complain that the French are unwelcoming and unfriendly and indeed there may be an initial barrier to break through when you arrive here, but once you have a working knowledge of the language, are open to the French way of life and doing things, you are generally accepted. It is even easier if you are married to a French national.

I would qualify this as passive rejection, fairly easy to overcome, whereas in the Netherlands the rejection seems to be much more active and I understand how frustrating and alienating it must be.

It's interesting to note that there are no posts from "foreigners" living happy and integrated lives in Holland.

There does indeed seem to be a "Dark Side" which can perhaps be attributed to the fact that while France and many other European countries have a history of waves of immigration which means that their populations are to a large extent of mixed origins, this is far less true of the Netherlands.

I am very sad for those who face rejection simply because they are non-whatever and feel very lucky that I came to France.


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## Gioppino (Aug 25, 2012)

Let me clarify that I don't think that the Dutch are racist, at least not towards other Europeans or Westeners in general.

All I'm saying is that the first step for integration is way too difficult.

As an Italian, I've been used to 15 years living in the UK when no one would come to you and throw racist words at your face.

Here in NL I've been told in a non-apologetic tone that they don't want to mix Dutch and foreigners at work, as if it was the most natural thing to say.

To give you a term of comparison, I had 5 job interviews in the last two months. 4 of them were conducted in English, despite me being able to conduct an interview in Dutch. When I offered, I was told that my Dutch was not good enough. I felt like walking away.

The only interview in Dutch I had, I was told they had two departments, one for the Dutch, one for the Poles. They couldn't put me in the one with the Dutch (why?), and they found it difficult to place with the East Europeans because the like to work on their own.





jenniferllynn said:


> but once you have a working knowledge of the language,


How would I gain a working knowledge of the language if they admit they wouldn't want to place with the locals? What is it with me? Do I smell bad?


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## DutchActually (Feb 18, 2014)

Despite of my silence, I _am_ reading and appreciating your replies!


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## Aduki (Jun 30, 2014)

I have just been reading this thread although not yet the one that is being referred to. I am Dutch, living in the UK and have done for the past 15 years. I used to think the Netherlands was great and lots of things were better but have started to see a different side, and see things in a different way- hence I googled dark side to Dutch society and found this post. I found it interesting reading- the otherness as you describe is something I get a bit of here- but not as often because I don't have a Dutch accent- however my very Dutch name gives it away..... so I often have the same discussions but not often do I get asked when I am planning to go back. It is an insidious feeling though- I will never be really completely a part of society here yet the Netherlands has changed so much since I left (honest guilders have gone for a start!! and replaced with toy euros) so I can't go back and won't since I have an English partner and English children none of whom speak Dutch. I do think the Dutch are not as tolerant as they are made out to be- there is an arrogance and a manipulativeness there and a ' act normal that's crazy enough' kind of attitude that is quite harmful- it's hard to describe but the complete ban on homeschooling and the lack of choice is a good example- what on earth possesses the government to decree that school is what every child needs- there is so much evidence to the contrary. Also no pain relief options in childbirth- I am glad I had my children in the UK! The comments made by employers to gioppino about not mixing foreigners and Dutch people would not be tolerated in the UK, it's honest I guess.... but it's still wrong.


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## yvo1987 (Jul 16, 2014)

This is such an interesting post and am so glad it is not just myself that have found the Dutch to be like this!

Before I moved here I was told by many people that the Dutch are the most welcoming people you can come across. Unfortunately for me I have rarely experienced this. Even my boyfriends parents don't seem to accept me due to being English. I also got refused a job I was perfect for and was native English because they said I wouldn't be able to communicate with colleagues on breaks. 

But how can I learn and integrate myself in the country and the language when I'm not even given the opportunity?


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## highwind (Aug 10, 2014)

You realized that your country is not that easy to integrate. That's a good start.

Many have told you about difficulties, allow me to go from another perspective:



> I'd love to know more about this, but my wife keeps telling me that I get defensive and apologetic, that I downplay anything negative she brings to the table. And I probably do all of that, because I come from a background of 'If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much, and the Olympics aren't helping'.


1. I think your wife is upset because you take this issue not seriously enough. It doesn't matter if she's in NL or any other countries. Instead of trying to fully understand, you need to acknowledge and sympathize even you don't fully understand. (You will never understand, actually) Moving to a new country is very difficulty already, living a new life in it is even tougher. She needs a strong support from you.

2. I have lived in many countries in Europe. NL is not the worst  At least they don't throw me out of the shop when I don't speak local language. And people aren't frightened when I approach them to ask something on the street.


BTW, I have one complaint. The food is terrible and eating out is so expensive, how can you eat only sandwiches everyday?


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## MamaDuck (Aug 19, 2014)

I sympathize with your wife, as my partner is also Dutch and it took him years to see what I meant, and, even now, I'm not sure if he really does get it. 

We are thinking of going back and I simply dread it. If it was just the two of us I would never move back. I would rather break up than to go back. And no, I'm not kidding. 

My experience of the Netherlands, when we used to live there before we had kids, was awful. 

People only spoke English if they so felt like it, but if I tried Dutch they would just reply in English anyway. 
During a party, I would be sitting there, bored to my wits, and apart from the standard conversation about where I'm from, if I liked it there, why had I moved, when would I move back, etc, then no one spoke to me. I would just sit there, being ignored by everyone, including my partner who seemed oblivious to my plight. 

I had no trouble in making friends with other expats though, so I reckon it wasn't my social skills that were the problem. 

My partner's family disliked me from day one (still do) and we both believe that being a foreign played a large hand at that. Sick of it, I did ask them one day why did they dislike me so much. They denied it. So much for the Dutch "bluntness". 
In my opinion, a lot of the Dutch aren't blunt; they are rude. They are only blunt to people they can bully. If you are blunt to them, then they shy away from it.

His friends weren't all too keen on me either, which didn't make life easy. 

I was young and I tried to work as an au-pair for a while, seeing that I couldn't get any other jobs due to not speak Dutch. In one family I was kicked out in the rain because I didn't eat all of my meal (it was some sort of fish, half raw and in some sort of white sauce? I tried, I would have puked if I persisted). The mother of the family accused me of theft when I finally left, not being able to keep on being mistreated.; other family went on holiday and left me there, no money nor food. 

I went to the dentist to have a check up once: the dentist, after I sat down on the chair, arranged it to the correct height and said "ohhhh funny isn't it? I bet you don't have these chairs in your country!" No, we tie a rope to the tooth, the other end of the rope to a branch, and jump from the tree we have been swinging on...

I went to the local college to ask about Dutch lessons: I got given the wrong info and told I couldn't take lessons unless I had a visa (I'm from the EU?!?!) or was married to a Dutch national. 

All in all, I did not meet many open minded Dutch. I met plenty who WANTED to be seen as open minded. 
I didn't meet much sympathy, but plenty of abuse. 

I'm sorry, you may be an excellent person, but the Netherlands for me were a living hell for the couple of years I lived there. 

I now have children and we are thinking of going back. Words cannot express what I feel at the idea.


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