# Changes to Residency requirements for EU citizens in Spain April 2012 Discussion



## Pesky Wesky

Hi Xabiachica,
I've looked through the link you gave to the BOE on this thread, 
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...uirements-uk-citizens-spain-april-2012-a.html
but although full of information, I can't find any reference to Changes to Residency requirements for UK citizens in Spain. It's all about the new Health System...


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Xabiachica,
> I've looked through the link you gave to the BOE on this thread,
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...uirements-uk-citizens-spain-april-2012-a.html
> but although full of information, I can't find any reference to Changes to Residency requirements for UK citizens in Spain. It's all about the new Health System...


I think it's there somewhere - unless the link I got from the consulate website is the wrong one :confused2:


I shall have another look after I've had my lunch


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## Alcalaina

Here is the relevant bit of the EU Freedom of Movement directive, regarding immigrants from other EU countries:



> *Right of residence for more than three months*
> 
> The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:
> 
> 
> either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);
> or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
> or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;
> or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Here is the relevant bit of the EU Freedom of Movement directive, regarding immigrants from other EU countries:


yep - page 32 of the link


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## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> yep - page 32 of the link


But this isn't new, the directive dates from 2004. Perhaps Spain has only just got round to enforcing it?


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> But this isn't new, the directive dates from 2004. Perhaps Spain has only just got round to enforcing it?


Something's new about it because it wasn't like that before,was it?
Here it is from the horses mouth AKA el Ministerio del Interior

Estancia y residencia - Ministerio del Interior
*RESIDENCIA SUPERIOR A TRES MESES * Los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea o de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo tienen *derecho de residencia en territorio español por un período superior a tres meses si se encuentran en alguno de los siguientes supuestos:*


 Son trabajadores por cuenta ajena o por cuenta propia en España, o
 Disponen, para sí y los miembros de su familia, de recursos suficientes para no convertirse en una carga para la asistencia social en España durante su período de residencia, así como de un seguro de enfermedad que cubra todos los riesgos en España, o
 Están matriculados en un centro público o privado, reconocido o financiado por la administración educativa competente, con la finalidad principal de cursar estudios; y cuentan con un seguro de enfermedad que cubre todos los riesgos en España y garantizan que poseen recursos suficientes para sí y los miembros de su familia para no convertirse en una carga para la asistencia social del Estado español durante su período de residencia, o
 Son miembros de la familia que acompañan o van a reunirse con un ciudadano de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea o de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo que cumple las condiciones contempladas en alguno de los supuestos anteriores.
Thanks for indicating where it was in the 34 page document!!


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## mrypg9

bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3513889.stm#germany


Most member states imposed restrictions on work-seeking immigrants; presumably therefore the Directive contained clauses allowing for each member state to add/take from them?

Most Directives contain elasticity of this kind.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3513889.stm#germany
> 
> 
> Most member states imposed restrictions on work-seeking immigrants; presumably therefore the Directive contained clauses allowing for each member state to add/take from them?
> 
> Most Directives contain elasticity of this kind.


Must be. Poland is limiting immigration from xx to xx because of the football match that is going to be played - or has it already been played?? - you know what I mean anyway.


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## Solwriter

Alcalaina said:


> But this isn't new, the directive dates from 2004. Perhaps Spain has only just got round to enforcing it?


Yes they have.
Previously they chose not to enforce this directive for EU citizens.
Now they are.

Although things are still very much up in the air on this, as EU Citizens have the right to reside in any country in the union and can only be expelled under extreme circumstances.
But of course, if you need to sign on for state healthcare, then you need to show that you are signed on the foreigners register...
So (personally) I think that the difference between actually being allowed to reside in Spain and to be allowed to register as living here is the point we need to address.


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> Yes they have.
> Previously they chose not to enforce this directive for EU citizens.
> Now they are.
> 
> Although things are still very much up in the air on this, as EU Citizens have the right to reside in any country in the union and can only be expelled under extreme circumstances.
> But of course, if you need to sign on for state healthcare, then you need to show that you are signed on the foreigners register...
> So (personally) I think that the difference between actually being allowed to reside in Spain and to be allowed to register as living here is the point we need to address.


Well, we are always told and imo rightly so that if you 'reside' in Spain you should register on the padron as your local authority will qualify for funding depending on the number of people registered as resident in any specific locality.

After all, even if you don't need to look to the Spanish state for support in any way, you will presumably make use, albeit in a minor way, of resources and facilities supplied by the local authority...water, sewerage, rubbish disposal and police spring to mind.
And if you reside in Spain for more than 183 days you have tax liabilities.

When I think of the requirements for residency that were in force in Canada when I had property and was considering retiring there.......

As long as nation states exist, regardless of any current arrangements such as the SEA, surely they should have some control over who may reside within their frontiers?

Free movement of money is one of the causes of the current crisis in Spain. Who is to say that the whole of the SEA won't be scrapped? We are now in a situation where what was previously unthinkable is being openly discussed - Greece's exit from the euro, the breakdown of the eurozone as it currently exists, a referendum in the UK....

Maybe the outcome of all this will be a new type of EU, one that exists to serve the peoples of Europe and not the global financial markets. The SEA is a free-marketeer's charter.
I campaigned against this Act when I stood for the European Parliament. Even Mrs. Thatcher is alleged to have said she didn't fully understand the implications of what she had signed.
THe Guardian today apparently calls for a 'United States of Europe' as the only solution to the current crisis.
Well, I know it says in the Scriptures that the 'lion shall lie down with the lamb'....
That outcome seems more likely than a harmonious joining of the current eurozone member states, never mind the UK, Czech Republic and others.
Jesus wept....

That's in the Scriptures too


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> Yes they have.
> Previously they chose not to enforce this directive for EU citizens.
> Now they are.
> 
> Although things are still very much up in the air on this, as EU Citizens have the right to reside in any country in the union and can only be expelled under extreme circumstances.
> But of course, if you need to sign on for state healthcare, then you need to show that you are signed on the foreigners register...
> So (personally) I think that *the difference between actually being allowed to reside in Spain and to be allowed to register as living here is the point we need to address.*


yes that's it exactly - they aren't very likely going to be kicking us out for not registering

but they can certainly make life difficult (if not impossible) without a resident cert

apart from healthcare - in some areas you can't buy a car without a cert, you aren't supposed to get your kids into school without one, & I'm sure it could easily be made a requirement that you can't do all sorts of things such as rent property & so on too


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Well, we are always told and imo rightly so that if you 'reside' in Spain you should register on the padron as your local authority will qualify for funding depending on the number of people registered as resident in any specific locality.
> 
> After all, even if you don't need to look to the Spanish state for support in any way, you will presumably make use, albeit in a minor way, of resources and facilities supplied by the local authority...water, sewerage, rubbish disposal and police spring to mind.


Agreed.
But being on the Padron does not give you residencia, or, in an EU Citizens case, does not give you your certificate that you are on the foreigners list.

I would also hazard a guess that there are many local authorities who have names on their list who haven't lived there for years, but it all helps them to get funding for essential local services, so I'm not complaining about that.



mrypg9 said:


> And if you reside in Spain for more than 183 days you have tax liabilities.


Yes you do. but that makes you a _fiscal_ resident, not necessarily a resident in the residencia case.



mrypg9 said:


> When I think of the requirements for residency that were in force in Canada when I had property and was considering retiring there.......
> 
> As long as nation states exist, regardless of any current arrangements such as the SEA, surely they should have some control over who may reside within their frontiers?
> 
> Free movement of money is one of the causes of the current crisis in Spain. Who is to say that the whole of the SEA won't be scrapped? We are now in a situation where what was previously unthinkable is being openly discussed - Greece's exit from the euro, the breakdown of the eurozone as it currently exists, a referendum in the UK....
> 
> Maybe the outcome of all this will be a new type of EU, one that exists to serve the peoples of Europe and not the global financial markets. The SEA is a free-marketeer's charter.
> I campaigned against this Act when I stood for the European Parliament. Even Mrs. Thatcher is alleged to have said she didn't fully understand the implications of what she had signed.
> THe Guardian today apparently calls for a 'United States of Europe' as the only solution to the current crisis.
> Well, I know it says in the Scriptures that the 'lion shall lie down with the lamb'....
> That outcome seems more likely than a harmonious joining of the current eurozone member states, never mind the UK, Czech Republic and others.
> Jesus wept....
> 
> That's in the Scriptures too



Haven't read the Guardian for a for days. May just pop over and have a look.
And as for Maggie.... I could say I'm not surprised... or I could say that's a cop out...


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## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> yes that's it exactly - they aren't very likely going to be kicking us out for not registering
> 
> but they can certainly make life difficult (if not impossible) without a resident cert
> 
> apart from healthcare - in some areas you can't buy a car without a cert, you aren't supposed to get your kids into school without one, & I'm sure it could easily be made a requirement that you can't do all sorts of things such as rent property & so on too


And those are exactly the reasons why this debate is so important.

It is all very well for people to quote EU legislation and say that the new rules outlined by Spain have no bearing on their life here as EU Citizens and that they will ignore them.
In most cases their lives could get very difficult indeed.


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> And those are exactly the reasons why this debate is so important.
> 
> It is all very well for people to quote EU legislation and say that the new rules outlined by Spain have no bearing on their life here as EU Citizens and that they will ignore them.
> In most cases their lives could get very difficult indeed.


Maybe it's the heat, maybe I'm just dim....(sorry, intellectually challenged) but what is so difficult about complying with whatever reasonable rules and regulations are enforced ?

Why should a person from any country think it's OK to come to Spain and live 'under the radar'?

I have never viewed by resident status in Spain as a 'right' but rather as a privilege.

All of us posting here have done our best to comply with the rules. You have, I have...
So why can't others


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it's the heat, maybe I'm just dim....(sorry, intellectually challenged) but what is so difficult about complying with whatever reasonable rules and regulations are enforced ?
> 
> Why should a person from any country think it's OK to come to Spain and live 'under the radar'?
> 
> I have never viewed by resident status in Spain as a 'right' but rather as a privilege.
> 
> All of us posting here have done our best to comply with the rules. You have, I have...
> So why can't others


either because they don't know the rules........ or they don't want to


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## baldilocks

Solwriter said:


> I would also hazard a guess that there are many local authorities who have names on their list who haven't lived there for years, but it all helps them to get funding for essential local services, so I'm not complaining about that.


helps to make up for those who don't register on the Padrón.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it's the heat, maybe I'm just dim....(sorry, intellectually challenged) but what is so difficult about complying with whatever reasonable rules and regulations are enforced ?
> 
> Why should a person from any country think it's OK to come to Spain and live 'under the radar'?
> 
> I have never viewed by resident status in Spain as a 'right' but rather as a privilege.
> 
> All of us posting here have done our best to comply with the rules. You have, I have...
> So why can't others


I agree 101%  which is why I get so annoyed with people who come on the forum, to ask how they can get away without complying with the requirements when they would probably be the first to complain if somebody went to UK and did the same thing!


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it's the heat, maybe I'm just dim....(sorry, intellectually challenged) but what is so difficult about complying with whatever reasonable rules and regulations are enforced ?
> 
> Why should a person from any country think it's OK to come to Spain and live 'under the radar'?
> 
> I have never viewed by resident status in Spain as a 'right' but rather as a privilege.
> 
> All of us posting here have done our best to comply with the rules. You have, I have...
> So why can't others


It is partly the heat 

If you look on another thread here you will see why I think this could be a problem.

There is also the case that those who have followed the rules to the letter are still having problems. For example, someone who has recently moved house and needs to update their details may find they cannot do so, perhaps because their local office is withholding registration until they are sure of the rules, or perhaps because they are afraid that they can no longer comply with the new rules on income (whatever those turn out to be).

Then there are new people coming to Spain wishing to sign on the foreigners register who now find it isn't simply the case of being an EU Citizen. They now have to supply details of income and of healthcare.

The Catch 22 is actually regarding healthcare for pensioners or those using the S1 to get two years of healthcare in Spain. In some regions the rules are in a right muddle!
You need your green residencia certificate (as well as your Padron and S1 if it applies) to sign on for your health card.
But you need evidence of healthcare to sign on to get your residencia certificate....

(Chicken and egg...)

The British Embassy is still unsure as to whether showing your S1 will suffice for this.... And if not, that means you will have to show evidence of private health insurance... at least for a while.

It's complicated


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## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> It is partly the heat
> 
> If you look on another thread here you will see why I think this could be a problem.
> 
> There is also the case that those who have followed the rules to the letter are still having problems. For example, someone who has recently moved house and needs to update their details may find they cannot do so, perhaps because their local office is withholding registration until they are sure of the rules, or perhaps because they are afraid that they can no longer comply with the new rules on income (whatever those turn out to be).
> 
> Then there are new people coming to Spain wishing to sign on the foreigners register who now find it isn't simply the case of being an EU Citizen. They now have to supply details of income and of healthcare.
> 
> The Catch 22 is actually regarding healthcare for pensioners or those using the S1 to get two years of healthcare in Spain. In some regions the rules are in a right muddle!
> You need your green residencia certificate (as well as your Padron and S1 if it applies) to sign on for your health card.
> But you need evidence of healthcare to sign on to get your residencia certificate....
> 
> (Chicken and egg...)
> 
> The British Embassy is still unsure as to whether showing your S1 will suffice for this.... And if not, that means you will have to show evidence of private health insurance... at least for a while.
> 
> It's complicated


certainly in Benidorm they are accepting the S1 as proof of healthcare - it's proof of income which seems to be a sticking point


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> either because they don't know the rules........ or they don't want to


Moving to another country to live is a serious step not to be undertaken without much thought, research and several fact-finding trips.

Learning the 'rules' is the most important part of that learning, I would have thought.

Although sometimes when I read posts from wannabe immigrants saying they want to live in Spain because of the awfulness of the UK or the weather I do wonder how seriously people have thought about their relocation, especially when children are involved.

I remember reading a 'reader's letter, in The Sun, I think it was, from a woman who said she was thinking of moving to Spain because of 'all the foreigners' where she lived.

I did not make that up....


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## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> It is partly the heat
> 
> ...)
> 
> The British Embassy is still unsure as to whether showing your S1 will suffice for this.... And if not, that means you will have to show evidence of private health insurance... at least for a while.
> 
> :


I was advised by the DWP to take out private health insurance to cover the period from my applying for health care in Spain and getting my Seg. Soc. number and tarjeta.

Once you have Residency status and Spain is your abode you forfeit your right to use the EHIC for anything other than emergencies...and now I come to think about it, maybe not even for that ....


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Moving to another country to live is a serious step not to be undertaken without much thought, research and several fact-finding trips.
> 
> Learning the 'rules' is the most important part of that learning, I would have thought.
> 
> Although sometimes when I read posts from wannabe immigrants saying they want to live in Spain because of the awfulness of the UK or the weather I do wonder how seriously people have thought about their relocation, especially when children are involved.
> 
> I remember reading a 'reader's letter, in The Sun, I think it was, from a woman who said she was thinking of moving to Spain because of 'all the foreigners' where she lived.
> 
> I did not make that up....


I know you're not making it up - I unfortunately know/have known way too many people like that here 


I have to admit that for all our planning & recces before we moved here getting on for 9 years ago, there were lots of things we hadn't considered - including wrongly believing that we would be entitled to healthcare here & knowing nothing about 'residencia' requirements , although we knew we didn't need any special visas or anything like that

our research was more about what area we were coming to & International schools, because at the time it was a 'suck it & see' move


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Moving to another country to live is a serious step not to be undertaken without much thought, research and several fact-finding trips.
> 
> Learning the 'rules' is the most important part of that learning, I would have thought.
> 
> Although sometimes when I read posts from wannabe immigrants saying they want to live in Spain because of the awfulness of the UK or the weather I do wonder how seriously people have thought about their relocation, especially when children are involved.


Which is my oft repeated argument - it is NOT locattion, location, location but research, research, research (which of course includes location)




mrypg9 said:


> I remember reading a 'reader's letter, in The Sun, I think it was, from a woman who said she was thinking of moving to Spain because of 'all the foreigners' where she lived.
> 
> I did not make that up....


There was also the other one where the said person said he/she wasn't going to take any more holidays abroad because the place was always so full of foreigners.


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## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> I was advised by the DWP to take out private health insurance to cover the period from my applying for health care in Spain and getting my Seg. Soc. number and tarjeta.


When we moved here, we thought about doing that too, but, owing to my husbands previous health problems we were unable to find decent, affordable health insurance anywhere!
We had to rely upon bog standard travel insurance.
It was a worrying time ...

Like xabiachica, we had done our research, but in those days in our area anyway, residencia came first, before you could claim state health care, even with S1s (or whatever they called them back then...E something... cant remember!). So, without residencia we were stuck.



mrypg9 said:


> Once you have Residency status and Spain is your abode you forfeit your right to use the EHIC for anything other than emergencies...and now I come to think about it, maybe not even for that ....


You see, that's another subject of confusion.
If, as in my husbands case, your pension is paid by the UK, then your state healthcare in Spain is paid by the UK and your EHIC should come from there too... but the EHIC implies you are a resident of the UK with a UK address!
So... how would he get emergency healthcare in the UK!

I find that totally confusing (must be the heat )


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## mrypg9

xabiachica said:


> I know you're not making it up - I unfortunately know/have known way too many people like that here
> 
> 
> I have to admit that for all our planning & recces before we moved here getting on for 9 years ago, there were lots of things we hadn't considered - including wrongly believing that we would be entitled to healthcare here & knowing nothing about 'residencia' requirements , although we knew we didn't need any special visas or anything like that
> 
> our research was more about what area we were coming to & International schools, because at the time it was a 'suck it & see' move


When we made our first move, from the UK to Prague, I flew out to ask my Czech friend to help me find a place to live. A place to live found, I thought that was it, as I had been visiting Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic for decades. I blush today when I think back on how wrong I was....
In was totally unprepared for the rules, regulations, odd little customs that make up everyday life and which as a visitor, no matter how frequent your visits, you just don't have to deal with.

So when we came from Prague to Spain we did a lot of homework. Being able to stay in a family property until we got ourselves sorted helped.

But what made the rules needed to settle in Spain so easy and straightforward was the sheer niceness and helpfulness of Spanish people.
It seems to me that Spanish people don't like to see other people unhappy, whereas Czechs, being miserable sods, like to see you miserable too.

Now there's a generalisation....But it is our experience.


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## Alcalaina

Solwriter said:


> When we moved here, we thought about doing that too, but, owing to my husbands previous health problems we were unable to find decent, affordable health insurance anywhere!
> We had to rely upon bog standard travel insurance.
> It was a worrying time ...
> 
> Like xabiachica, we had done our research, but in those days in our area anyway, residencia came first, before you could claim state health care, even with S1s (or whatever they called them back then...E something... cant remember!). So, without residencia we were stuck.
> 
> 
> You see, that's another subject of confusion.
> If, as in my husbands case, your pension is paid by the UK, then your state healthcare in Spain is paid by the UK and your EHIC should come from there too... but the EHIC implies you are a resident of the UK with a UK address!
> So... how would he get emergency healthcare in the UK!
> 
> I find that totally confusing (must be the heat )



We came in 2008 armed with E106 forms, the predecessor to S1s for people who had paid-up NI contributions in the UK. We got our NIEs before we moved, and had our SS numbers and health cover within a month, though we were advised by DWP to use EHICs for the first six months. l could be wrong, but I think you had to be here six months before you needed a residency certificate. 

These constant changes don't help when you're trying to give advice on forums, do they!


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe it's the heat, maybe I'm just dim....(sorry, intellectually challenged) but what is so difficult about complying with whatever reasonable rules and regulations are enforced ?


Because it's is difficult to a) know what the rules are and b) be sure that you have complied with all of them. Are you absolutely sure you have?



mrypg9 said:


> Why should a person from any country think it's OK to come to Spain and live 'under the radar'?


That is a different question and very valid.



mrypg9 said:


> I have never viewed by resident status in Spain as a 'right' but rather as a privilege.
> 
> All of us posting here have done our best to comply with the rules. You have, I have...
> So why can't others


See highlighted bit.

A question; do the new residency requirements apply to new applications or are they retrospective? I ask because the residency certificate forms are open ended/undated.


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## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> A question; do the new residency requirements apply to new applications or are they retrospective? I ask because the residency certificate forms are open ended/undated.


I don't think anyone yet knows 

I can't find mine, & had intended to go get another one - but what happens if 'they' decide I don't have a high enough income??

I should be fine - autónoma & so on- but what if???


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## Alcalaina

They can't possibly make it retrospective. An estimated six million EU immigrants live in Spain. Think of the manpower this would need, at a time when they are laying off _funcionarios_ all over the place.


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## Muddy

xabiachica said:


> I don't think anyone yet knows
> 
> I can't find mine, & had intended to go get another one - but what happens if 'they' decide I don't have a high enough income??
> 
> I should be fine - autónoma & so on- but what if???


This is worrying me now.
I was planning on moving over lock stock and 2 smoking barrels etc... Buying a place outright with no mortgage, be lazy-ish for a 1st year and study Spanish either by going to classes or maybe a tutor for a short period as I'm finding it harder than I hoped :confused2:
I've budgeted for 3 years and if I was tight with my money (I'm good at that lol) I could maybe stretch it to 4 years. That's worse case scenario and a backup as I aim to start a business in year 2 or a small chance of buying a running business or co-invest with someone. I also intend to pay for health insurance from the off...
So in this situation where would I now stand !
Own home, money in the bank, health insurance, no income to start with = Still no residency?

Would that then mean I would end up paying more on taxes due to my status (non resident)? and if that was the case I would be (_holding back a few 4 letter words_) unhappy!


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## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> This is worrying me now.
> I was planning on moving over lock stock and 2 smoking barrels etc... Buying a place outright with no mortgage, be lazy-ish for a 1st year and study Spanish either by going to classes or maybe a tutor for a short period as I'm finding it harder than I hoped :confused2:
> I've budgeted for 3 years and if I was tight with my money (I'm good at that lol) I could maybe stretch it to 4 years. That's worse case scenario and a backup as I aim to start a business in year 2 or a small chance of buying a running business or co-invest with someone. I also intend to pay for health insurance from the off...
> So in this situation where would I now stand !
> Own home, money in the bank, health insurance, no income to start with = Still no residency?
> 
> Would that then mean I would end up paying more on taxes due to my status (non resident)? and if that was the case I would be (_holding back a few 4 letter words_) unhappy!


no idea :confused2:

the health insurance will cover that aspect

but it's not clear yet about income - hopefully a healthy bank balance will be enough


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## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> I don't think anyone yet knows
> 
> I can't find mine, & had intended to go get another one - but what happens if 'they' decide I don't have a high enough income??
> 
> I should be fine - autónoma & so on- but what if???


As Alcalaina says, it is very doubtful whether they will make this retrospective.
But because things are so up in the air even now, it is a worry for many people who previously thought they had done everything 'by the book'.
There is also the experiences of many of us, that what appears rational to us doesn't always apply....

And I've just read Muddy's post...
Another worry....

All of this ongoing confusion is not exactly helping people make their decisions about living here (or remaining here...).

It's at times like this that the Spanish Government and in particular, the way it communicates changes to the various regions, doesn't do itself any favours.
(And I know it's not that simple... )


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## Muddy

xabiachica said:


> no idea :confused2:
> 
> the health insurance will cover that aspect


Hope so! And I guess when I'm running business later. And will that be Net or Gross lol when they come up with a number! That might sound funny but for a small one man band startting out it could mean the difference in not meeting the magic number for even longer €€€...


> but it's not clear yet about income - hopefully a healthy bank balance will be enough


Hope so.
I can understand why they might want to do this, but as you can't get much or anything out of the Spanish system without paying anything in first it just seems strange to me.
I think if this goes through as is, it will put some people off of Spain, is that the intended reason for this!


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## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> Hope so! And I guess when I'm running business later. And will that be Net or Gross lol when they come up with a number! That might sound funny but for a small one man band startting out it could mean the difference in not meeting the magic number for even longer €€€...
> Hope so.
> I can understand why they might want to do this, but as you can't get much or anything out of the Spanish system without paying anything in first it just seems strange to me.
> I think if this goes through as is, it will put some people off of Spain, is that the intended reason for this!


net income I should imagine - but no idea!!


it has gone through already - it's just the actual figures which don't yet seem to be publicly available

& yes, that's _exactly_ what the rules are for - to stop people coming here who aren't completely financially self-sufficient


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> & yes, that's _exactly_ what the rules are for - to stop people coming here who aren't completely financially self-sufficient


And I suspect their primary target is Eastern Europeans, rather than Brits ...


----------



## Muddy

Solwriter said:


> As Alcalaina says, it is very doubtful whether they will make this retrospective.
> But because things are so up in the air even now, it is a worry for many people who previously thought they had done everything 'by the book'.
> There is also the experiences of many of us, that what appears rational to us doesn't always apply....
> 
> And I've just read Muddy's post...
> Another worry....


And why I lost a few hours sleep last night with this thing spinning around my head.
I guess it's just a waiting game now, but I would rather take action and start a petition and send it off to the British Embassy in Madrid, hopefully a big enough pile of paper so someone has to move it before they go into work in the morning 



> All of this ongoing confusion is not exactly helping people make their decisions about living here (or remaining here...).


It does make it harder for me know to think about Spain. Even more unsold property left on Spanish banks books I think if this goes into action.


> It's at times like this that the Spanish Government and in particular, the way it communicates changes to the various regions, doesn't do itself any favours.
> (And I know it's not that simple... )


I live in hope, as this is actually stressing me out now just thinking about it


----------



## Solwriter

Muddy said:


> And why I lost a few hours sleep last night with this thing spinning around my head.
> I guess it's just a waiting game now, but I would rather take action and start a petition and send it off to the British Embassy in Madrid, hopefully a big enough pile of paper so someone has to move it before they go into work in the morning
> 
> It does make it harder for me know to think about Spain. Even more unsold property left on Spanish banks books I think if this goes into action.
> I live in hope, as this is actually stressing me out now just thinking about it


As I've said before, when we first moved here the rules were very similar to what appears to be happening now.
And we decided not to test the rules until we thought we were able to fit the criteria on income (although we were never sure exactly what that criteria was!).

But...

This was 2005, the country was not in crisis, you could always find a gestor who spoke English and was able to 'arrange things for you', and it was almost always assumed in our area that people worked in the black. 
We survived here with a bit of 'ingenuity' until I was able to set up the evidence to make us legal.

I'm not saying what we did was right, but it did make it easier for those like us moving to Spain to get by and, in many cases, to become people who did contribute to the Spanish economy.

I would not like to do things that way now, especially knowing how each department (and even sections of that department) interprets laws in their own particular fashion.
And knowing that, in the Spanish Government's haste to bring in revenue, there will be those pushed to the wayside, sometimes through no fault of their own.

As to the British Embassy, I think they are in as much doubt as we are right now.
You only have to read some of their online information, where they talk about _residencia_ when it does not apply to EU citizens.
And from our experience, Newcastle is also floundering on this at the moment.
But hopefully a mound of paperwork could help....

But as you say, it is a waiting game.

I very much doubt if the Spanish Government would want to prevent someone living here who has savings to invest in the Spanish Economy.
But there again... I can't get into the heads of Spanish officials!


----------



## mrypg9

I think you should all stop worrying. Go and make a cup of tea or a G&T and watch the tennis.
Nothing drastic is going to happen, especially to British immigrants who are settled here. Does anyone really foresee large-scale deportations of the blue-rinse brigade? Our local police can't even round up stray dogs and donkeys, let alone recalcitrant Brits, Germans, Swedes etc.....
A little panic does add a frisson of excitement to our lives, I guess. That's why the Daily Maul is so widely read....it loves providing a spice of mild terror to its readers' lives..
Alca is right....it will be mainly Eastern Europeans looking for work who will be targeted. 

I think any country has the right to expect people who wish to settle within its frontiers not to be a burden on its resources, especially in times of crisis, but I doubt any dramatic new restrictions will be imposed de facto..


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> I think you should all stop worrying. Go and make a cup of tea or a G&T and watch the tennis.


Cant stand tennis! 


mrypg9 said:


> Nothing drastic is going to happen, especially to British immigrants who are settled here. Does anyone really foresee large-scale deportations of the blue-rinse brigade? Our local police can't even round up stray dogs and donkeys, let alone recalcitrant Brits, Germans, Swedes etc.....


Very true, but not having the correct paperwork can make life very difficult for them.

I don't think this is a panic debate, more a confusion debate.
Most people like to know where they stand.
At the moment, no one is sure.


----------



## jimenato

Solwriter said:


> Cant stand tennis!


Don't worry - the Rugby is about to start


----------



## mrypg9

Solwriter said:


> Cant stand tennis!
> 
> Very true, but not having the correct paperwork can make life very difficult for them.
> 
> I don't think this is a panic debate, more a confusion debate.
> Most people like to know where they stand.
> *At the moment, no one is sure*.



All the more reason to have that cup of tea or whatever.

Why speculate?


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Don't worry - the Rugby is about to start



One day, Simon, when you have several hours to spare, you can fetch a bottle of your best Cava from your cellar and patiently explain to me and Sandra the rules of rugby.
My rugby-coach son and rugby-playing grandsons haven't managed to do so.

We enjoy football, tennis, cricket.....even boxing, I'm rather ashamed to say....
but tbh, rugby seems to consist of wild tackles, dangerous-looking scrums and an awful lot of ****-erotic groping.....


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> but tbh, rugby seems to consist of wild tackles, dangerous-looking scrums and an awful lot of ****-erotic groping.....


Great description!


----------



## baldilocks

Can't stand rugby, tennis football or whatever sport. Got work to do - making a mosquetera (and installing it of course) that the carpintero de aluminio says can't be done - I love those challenges. The other evening he reckoned the persiana on our kitchen door couldn't be sorted (it kept jamming where it went beyond the ends of the guides) so I told him that it could, all he needed to do was put a self-tapping screw at the bottom of each guide to act as a stop = fixed!


----------



## Solwriter

mrypg9 said:


> Why speculate?


Without going into details, I have recently discovered that someone I know fairly well is not quite as legal as I thought they were.
They are speculating like crazy right now, so, being me, I am trying to sift through everything to help them out.
Not an easy task!

Perhaps we should discuss it over a few beers instead.


----------



## jimenato

I've had a quick look around here but I can't find it - maybe I read it somewhere else - isn't healthcare provision about to become residency based rather than contribution based?


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> I've had a quick look around here but I can't find it - maybe I read it somewhere else - isn't healthcare provision about to become residency based rather than contribution based?


I've not heardthat exactly

what I _did_ read somewhere a while ago was that all residents were to have the same rights as citizens

I thought that was already the case though - & since citizens have to contribute I can't see it makes a difference :confused2:


unless there's something else I haven't come across yet


----------



## jimenato

Maybe this is what I was thinking of

La sanidad española será del todo universal

El Congreso aprueba la ley de salud pública que reconoce la asistencia sanitaria a todos los ciudadanos.- Desempleados sin prestación y autónomos estaban sin prestación


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> Maybe this is what I was thinking of
> 
> La sanidad española será del todo universal
> 
> El Congreso aprueba la ley de salud pública que reconoce la asistencia sanitaria a todos los ciudadanos.- Desempleados sin prestación y autónomos estaban sin prestación


yes, that's the same thing I was thinking about - residents & citizens equal, although that report only mentions citizens at a quick glance

I guess these new residency requirements overrule that though

you can't become officially resident without proof of healthcare



we do seem to be going round in circles.............


----------



## jimenato

It seems to me that you need healthcare provision to become resident but once you are resident you get state healthcare. Something wrong somewhere...


----------



## Alcalaina

Talking of mixed messages:

Ocho mensajes diferentes desde un mismo Gobierno (VÍDEOS)

Eight different announcements (on the bailout) from government ministers in the space of a week, all contradicting each other.


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> yes, that's the same thing I was thinking about - residents & citizens equal, although that report only mentions citizens at a quick glance
> 
> I guess these new residency requirements overrule that though
> 
> you can't become officially resident without proof of healthcare
> 
> 
> 
> we do seem to be going round in circles.............


The way I read it, residents have the same rights to healthcare as citizens....
but some citizens cannot access state healthcare, because _Spanish healthcare is contributions based_.
And, whilst many Spanish citizens will find a way around this - family etc, it is more difficult for an immigrant to do so.
Then we do have some regions, in the past, which have based their healthcare on residency rather than contributions, but as this has now changed (I think...), this doesn't help either.


----------



## XTreme

I checked our residencia cards.....and we appear to have missed the expiry date. 

So I suppose I'll have to do battle with the jobsworth funcionario again. 

So any idea what I'm supposed to take this time.....apparently you have to show proof of SL or autonomo etc? But show them what documentation relating to that though?
And do I have to take photos now there's no more cards?


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> I checked our residencia cards.....and we appear to have missed the expiry date.
> 
> So I suppose I'll have to do battle with the jobsworth funcionario again.
> 
> So any idea what I'm supposed to take this time.....apparently you have to show proof of SL or autonomo etc? But show them what documentation relating to that though?
> And do I have to take photos now there's no more cards?


 Photocopy and take everything vaguely related to you living in Spain I guess. Passport, NIE, SS certificate, Autonomo paper work (all of it), gestorias name, previous residencia, address, deeds/rental contract, a page from the book you were reading last night.......... You can bet your life whatever you dont have with you they'll want lol!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

XTreme said:


> I checked our residencia cards.....and we appear to have missed the expiry date.
> 
> So I suppose I'll have to do battle with the jobsworth funcionario again.
> 
> So any idea what I'm supposed to take this time.....apparently you have to show proof of SL or autonomo etc? But show them what documentation relating to that though?
> And do I have to take photos now there's no more cards?


cards 

you must have missed that by a while then!

yes, on a local FB group today, one woman has an appointment for next week & they apparently want her _vida laboral_. 

no photo required (unless that has changed in the past week or so, too )


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Photocopy and take everything vaguely related to you living in Spain I guess. Passport, NIE, SS certificate, Autonomo paper work (all of it), gestorias name, previous residencia, address, deeds/rental contract, a page from the book you were reading last night.......... You can bet your life whatever you dont have with you they'll want lol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


you forgot written permission from the bisabuela...........


----------



## jojo

xabiachica said:


> you forgot written permission from the bisabuela...........


 pmsl!!!! BTW, I had to google "bisabuela"

Jo xxxx


----------



## brocher

jojo said:


> pmsl!!!! BTW, I had to google "bisabuela"
> 
> Jo xxxx


I'm so nosey, I just googled it too!

Extreme - last year they wanted photocopies of your passport - not just the back pages with your details, but also the page at the front which says "EU....." and has your Passpost No. printed at the bottom.


----------



## XTreme

xabiachica said:


> cards
> 
> you must have missed that by a while then!


Only about 18 months Lynn!

That's for the input everybody......I'll take every bit of crap I can find with me...including my 11+ pass certificate from 1965.

Why can't they have some nice young chicas doing this gig instead of these arrogant jerkoffs with an attitude? 
Actually I have a lot of fun playing the dumb Brit who can't understand any Spanish in situations like this. Invariably people let their guard down talking to others thinking I don't understand. 

Got a hell of a deal on a car a few weeks ago by pretending I had no idea what the garage guys were saying to each other. Then when they tried to close the deal I recounted exactly what they'd said and how they'd compromised themselves.
They tried touching my eggs. However.....these eggs are not for touching! Under 30 Espanolas excepted of course.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Why do they want stuff about your employment to get your residency?


----------



## XTreme

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why do they want stuff about your employment to get your residency?


I heard that's what they've brought in for some reason. How true that is, and whether each region/town is going to interpret it differently, I'm not sure.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Why do they want stuff about your employment to get your residency?


it's the proof of income & healthcare thing

they are accepting proof of a UK pension & the S1, and they are accepting the _vida laboral_, which would cover both I suppose

it's the early retired with savings who might find it difficult to prove an income


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> it's the proof of income & healthcare thing
> 
> they are accepting proof of a UK pension & the S1, and they are accepting the _vida laboral_, which would cover both I suppose
> 
> it's the early retired with savings who might find it difficult to prove an income


But... just because you're autónomo doesn't mean you're earning XXX. You probably are, but not necessarily. It doesn't prove anything, does it?


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> But... just because you're autónomo doesn't mean you're earning XXX. You probably are, but not necessarily. It doesn't prove anything, does it?


if you're paying autónomo you have your healthcare covered at least..... probably they can check how much you earn too -cross check with tax returns?

I reckon it's more a case of proving you won't be a drain on Spain - & autónomos don't get paro, anyway, do they?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> if you're paying autónomo you have your healthcare covered at least.....


true


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> it's the early retired with savings who might find it difficult to prove an income


If you've got savings, presumably you would just need your bank statements.

I honestly don't think they would make it difficult for financially self-sufficient people to live here. We are contributing to the economy, after all.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> If you've got savings, presumably you would just need your bank statements.
> 
> I honestly don't think they would make it difficult for financially self-sufficient people to live here. We are contributing to the economy, after all.


exactly - I can't see it either, but I will be interested to hear what 'evidence' they actually accept


----------



## XTreme

xabiachica said:


> exactly - I can't see it either, but I will be interested to hear what 'evidence' they actually accept


I'm sure they're insisting on proof of financial status for the Spanish now.

Apparently there's reports of Spaniards queueing outside the police stations carrying mattresses.


----------



## thrax

This morning we went to the local police station to get a new NIE. We had tried previously on Monday but having arrived at 10:30 am we were politely told they don't give out waiting tickets after 10:00 am. We arrived at 9:45 this morning, got our ticket, waited an hour, went to the desk, submitted our application form and had all the necessary original birth certs, passports, existing NIEs, and thousands of copies of each. We won. Went to the bank, paid €10.50, returned and waited while they printed the new NIE cert which looks like a credit card but made out of flimsy card. At no time were we asked to proved proof of income or health provision. But that is possibly because our two year old is currently unable to work and it was for him that we were applying for a new NIE. They even changed our address on the system (we've moved since we got our NIEs) and said we didn't need a new for because we would have to pay the tax for each one. The wholoe experience took two hours. They even smiled and yes, they laughed with us. We were happy. This was a result and a rare thing in Spain.


----------



## xabiaxica

thrax said:


> This morning we went to the local police station to get a new NIE. We had tried previously on Monday but having arrived at 10:30 am we were politely told they don't give out waiting tickets after 10:00 am. We arrived at 9:45 this morning, got our ticket, waited an hour, went to the desk, submitted our application form and had all the necessary original birth certs, passports, existing NIEs, and thousands of copies of each. We won. Went to the bank, paid €10.50, returned and waited while they printed the new NIE cert which looks like a credit card but made out of flimsy card. At no time were we asked to proved proof of income or health provision. But that is possibly because our two year old is currently unable to work and it was for him that we were applying for a new NIE. They even changed our address on the system (we've moved since we got our NIEs) and said we didn't need a new for because we would have to pay the tax for each one. The wholoe experience took two hours. They even smiled and yes, they laughed with us. We were happy. This was a result and a rare thing in Spain.


so is this a NIE, or a resident cert?

resident certs don't expire


----------



## thrax

NIE and residency cert around here are the same thing but the new (now old) NIE was printed on a green A4 page and now it is a green card. The old one has your address on it so they like to change their records when you move.


----------



## xabiaxica

thrax said:


> NIE and residency cert around here are the same thing but the new (now old) NIE was printed on a green A4 page and now it is a green card. The old one has your address on it so they like to change their records when you move.


it's the same all over the country............

if it's green it's a resident cert, if it's white then it's a non-resident's NIE

yes, they do like you to let them know when you move...................... but who has time........

maybe you didn't need all that proof cos you're already resident? if that's the case a lot of people can relax


----------



## thrax

Yes we are resident but somehow we forgot to get the boy his residency. He has to register at a new clinic and they won't let him without his own NIE and of course his Padron registration which we already have. When we first applied for residency for the bank account they gave us the white form, non-resident NIE which we then had to change to the resident version. No problems this time with the boy as we have done it so many times. Thinking of going into busines as a UK NIE advisor. A friend here, who has lived here for 18 months has just got her NIE and its a non-resident version. Ho hum............


----------



## Solwriter

thrax said:


> Thinking of going into busines as a UK NIE advisor. A friend here, who has lived here for 18 months has just got her NIE and its a non-resident version. Ho hum............


I would stay well away from that one if I were you.
At the moment I'm trying to help a friend who has lived here for years as non-resident and is now trying to do the right thing. But the implications - fines, frozen bank account, having to explain why she has been here so long without residencia (which of course, isn't really residencia... although it could be...), are making her halt at the first hurdle.
And I feel helpless to help her (if you see what I mean!).


----------



## snikpoh

xabiachica said:


> it's the same all over the country............
> 
> if it's green it's a resident cert, if it's white then it's a non-resident's NIE
> 
> yes, they do like you to let them know when you move...................... but who has time........
> 
> maybe you didn't need all that proof cos you're already resident? if that's the case a lot of people can relax




Not quite - almost correct. 

If its white, then it's just an NIE (resident or non-resident). 



It really all depends on how you define residency! Someone can live here and be in the process of getting the green sheet but need an NIE, now.


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> Not quite - almost correct.
> 
> If its white, then it's just an NIE (resident or non-resident).
> 
> 
> 
> It really all depends on how you define residency! Someone can live here and be in the process of getting the green sheet but need an NIE, now.


ok ok ...... a resident can have a white NIE.............. but why would they???


----------



## thrax

As far as banks are concerned there is a very big difference between the white version and the green one. We had the white version and after three months they froze our account because the white version, they told us, meant we had a non-resident NIE. Seems a bit daft because when we changed it to the green one (and it has different wording) we did, of course, keep the same NIE number.


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> ok ok ...... a resident can have a white NIE.............. but why would they???


Because when we applied for NIEs they were all white as far as I know.
And we kept our white NIE certs when we applied for residencia.

We are asked much more often to show those white certs than the green residencia ones and strangely, no one has ever said 'you need a new NIE certificate', even in cases where others say they had to provide an NIE dated within 3 months of application for something (but of course that may change....).


----------



## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> Because when we applied for NIEs they were all white as far as I know.
> And we kept our white NIE certs when we applied for residencia.
> 
> We are asked much more often to show those white certs than the green residencia ones and strangely, no one has ever said 'you need a new NIE certificate', even in cases where others say they had to provide an NIE dated within 3 months of application for something (but of course that may change....).


yes, I have a white NIE from years ago too - I mean people registering now though, since they changed the rules in 2007:confused2: when they started issuing the green combined NIE/resident certs

I've actually rarely been asked to show my NIE, usually they just ask for the number - & I've never been asked for one less than 3 months old (my old NIE is dated 2004 iirc, we sorted that out a few months after we arrived).............. I have for the padrón, though


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> yes, I have a white NIE from years ago too - I mean people registering now though, since they changed the rules in 2007:confused2: when they started issuing the green combined NIE/resident certs
> 
> I've actually rarely been asked to show my NIE, usually they just ask for the number - & I've never been asked for one less than 3 months old (my old NIE is dated 2004 iirc, we sorted that out a few months after we arrived).............. I have for the padrón, though


If I'm asked for my NIE, I just fish out my driving licence.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> If I'm asked for my NIE, I just fish out my driving licence.


I haven't got one.............


----------



## fergie

We both had white NIE's when we first bought a place in ST Javier, it had to be registered in Cartagena then.
However last year when I was living here more permanently, in this region, I had a green combined NIE residents cert. issued in Denier, late Septmeber. I was taken there by the Gestor-quick and painless, hardly any waiting!

My husband has not yet applied for his green cert. as he is still working half time in HK.
However, when he wanted to buy a new car, the showroom he bought it from asked for the Padron-- which had to be less than 3 months old, in order to register the car in Javea. The car was ordered in March this year, and has finally arrived for collection tomorrow, so the new Padron which was collected by him in April only just fits into the 3 month 'window",it now being June 2012.
When I got my new car for pick up early last(2011) September, before I got my green combined cert. they asked for a full copy of the house deeds of this Javea house,and were happy with my old St Javier Padron to register my car in Javea!, so I think it must be the Padron status which matters and has this 3 month rule, and must be fairly recent, in our case it was less than a year from Sept 2011 to June 2012.


----------



## gus-lopez

This is what to do . Go on here;

EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe        

click on 'permanent residence'
If you print this , in english, then top right change language to spanish & print again. Highlight the parts in both that state


"Permanent residence document

This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on."

Then this ;

"If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service. "

& here for the definitive statement that it does not have to be renewed

"The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed. "

& to get one all you need is ;

"To get one, you must submit:

proof you have been living in the country for 5 years, for example a valid registration certificate issued when you arrived

or

proof you have stopped working and meet the conditions for earlier permanent residence."

Now if you highlight the relevant parts , if you meet the requirements to apply for a permenent residence certificate, already have one & are asked to renew then show them this. Point out that "This is the law. EU rules take precedence over any EU national laws." or
" Esto es la ley. Las reglas de Unión Europea tienen prioridad sobre cualquier Unión Europea leyes nacionales."

Any problems , ask for the 'hojas de reclamación' & fill them in . Also make a complaint by clicking the 'you can call on our assistance service' link in the 3rd paragraph; which takes you here.
EU – Do you need help? – Your Europe


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> This is what to do . Go on here;
> 
> EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********
> 
> click on 'permanent residence'
> If you print this , in english, then top right change language to spanish & print again. Highlight the parts in both that state
> 
> 
> "Permanent residence document
> 
> This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.
> 
> This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on."
> 
> Then this ;
> 
> "If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service. "
> 
> & here for the definitive statement that it does not have to be renewed
> 
> "The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed. "
> 
> & to get one all you need is ;
> 
> "To get one, you must submit:
> 
> proof you have been living in the country for 5 years, for example a valid registration certificate issued when you arrived
> 
> or
> 
> proof you have stopped working and meet the conditions for earlier permanent residence."
> 
> Now if you highlight the relevant parts , if you meet the requirements to apply for a permenent residence certificate, already have one & are asked to renew then show them this. Point out that "This is the law. EU rules take precedence over any EU national laws." or
> " Esto es la ley. Las reglas de Unión Europea tienen prioridad sobre cualquier Unión Europea leyes nacionales."
> 
> Any problems , ask for the 'hojas de reclamación' & fill them in . Also make a complaint by clicking the 'you can call on our assistance service' link in the 3rd paragraph; which takes you here.
> EU – Do you need help? – Your Europe


Curioser and curioser...


----------



## Solwriter

gus-lopez said:


> This is what to do . Go on here;
> 
> EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********
> 
> click on 'permanent residence'
> If you print this , in english, then top right change language to spanish & print again. Highlight the parts in both that state
> 
> 
> "Permanent residence document
> 
> This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.
> 
> This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on."
> 
> Then this ;
> 
> "If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service. "
> 
> & here for the definitive statement that it does not have to be renewed
> 
> "The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed. "
> 
> & to get one all you need is ;
> 
> "To get one, you must submit:
> 
> proof you have been living in the country for 5 years, for example a valid registration certificate issued when you arrived
> 
> or
> 
> proof you have stopped working and meet the conditions for earlier permanent residence."
> 
> Now if you highlight the relevant parts , if you meet the requirements to apply for a permenent residence certificate, already have one & are asked to renew then show them this. Point out that "This is the law. EU rules take precedence over any EU national laws." or
> " Esto es la ley. Las reglas de Unión Europea tienen prioridad sobre cualquier Unión Europea leyes nacionales."
> 
> Any problems , ask for the 'hojas de reclamación' & fill them in . Also make a complaint by clicking the 'you can call on our assistance service' link in the 3rd paragraph; which takes you here.
> EU – Do you need help? – Your Europe


One point I did notice on that same page was this...



> *Equal treatment*
> 
> During your permanent stay in another country, you should enjoy the same rights, benefits and advantages as nationals.


Some people take this to mean that being a permanent resident in Spain gives them automatic right to health care. It doesn't. 
As we have seen on another thread, as the right to state health care is based upon contributions paid, rather than on residency, some Spanish nationals have no right to healthcare either.

Slightly off tangent with this, but I think it needs to be said.


----------



## Solwriter

Solwriter said:


> One point I did notice on that same page was this...
> 
> 
> 
> Some people take this to mean that being a permanent resident in Spain gives them automatic right to health care. It doesn't.
> As we have seen on another thread, as the right to state health care is based upon contributions paid, rather than on residency, some Spanish nationals have no right to healthcare either.
> 
> Slightly off tangent with this, but I think it needs to be said.


However....
Xabiachica has just pointed out this on another thread...
Ministry backtracks on healthcare entitlement restrictions | In English | EL PAÍS

Which leaves EU immigrants at a different state of play than Spanish Nationals.


----------



## xabiaxica

Solwriter said:


> However....
> Xabiachica has just pointed out this on another thread...
> Ministry backtracks on healthcare entitlement restrictions | In English | EL PAÍS
> 
> Which leaves EU immigrants at a different state of play than Spanish Nationals.


which _*I*_ thought was aginst EU rules............


----------



## Solwriter

xabiachica said:


> which _*I*_ thought was aginst EU rules............


So did I.
Should be interesting....

I have just read that Age Concern has had an unprecedented number of calls recently with Pensioners worried about the Spanish Health care changes.
I'm sure they'll get a few more now...

I'm beginning to despair that this current Government will ever get this worked out correctly. They seem to react to public pressure, but without real thought for the small print.


----------



## baldilocks

Solwriter said:


> but without real thought for the small print.


But I doubt that they neglect to think of their own pockets, just as they have agreed to bail out the banks whose tills they have had their hands in (so I understand)


----------



## gus-lopez

yes it's in here as well.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_34999.shtml

Unfortunately there's nothing they can do if you are already registered as a 'permanent resident' , as per my last post.


----------



## Solwriter

gus-lopez said:


> yes it's in here as well.
> Health reforms approach in Spain
> 
> Unfortunately there's nothing they can do if you are already registered as a 'permanent resident' , as per my last post.


Agreed.

But (and as I mentioned on my other post ) what about those people who have moved to Spain in good faith, intent on becoming legal residents, but are caught up in the process of trying to obtain their green card at this very moment?

Do you know, if I was thinking about moving to Spain now, even with enough funds to guarantee I could support myself, I really would think twice.
Who can say what is going to happen a few years down the line (even for those who have planned down to the finest detail)?

And it is all very well to say that EU rules prevent EU citizens who become permanent residents of Spain from being treated as second class citizens with less rights, but tell that to the official who insists he or she knows the rules better than you do, or to a hospital clerk who insists your health card is out of date and refuses treatment.
(and then trying arguing your case in rapid Spanish...)

It would put me off, I can tell you.
And I'm not exactly the shy, retiring type.


----------



## gus-lopez

Solwriter said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But (and as I mentioned on my other post ) what about those people who have moved to Spain in good faith, intent on becoming legal residents, but are caught up in the process of trying to obtain their green card at this very moment?
> 
> Do you know, if I was thinking about moving to Spain now, even with enough funds to guarantee I could support myself, I really would think twice.
> Who can say what is going to happen a few years down the line (even for those who have planned down to the finest detail)?
> 
> And it is all very well to say that EU rules prevent EU citizens who become permanent residents of Spain from being treated as second class citizens with less rights, but tell that to the official who insists he or she knows the rules better than you do, or to a hospital clerk who insists your health card is out of date and refuses treatment.
> (and then trying arguing your case in rapid Spanish...)
> 
> It would put me off, I can tell you.
> And I'm not exactly the shy, retiring type.


I fully agree. You can't plan here on the basis that they all work to the same rules, if they know them ! I plan on the basis that they will always attempt to find some reason NOT to issue the health card/licence/whatever & work out , on the basis that they only know vaguely what the requirements are for whatever they are supposed to be employed to do, what possible reasons they are likely to come up with to deny issuing anything. Hopefully then I've got all the answers /paperwork to cover anything they are likely to ask or want!

It's a ridiculous way to go about things but experience has taught me that I can more or less be guaranteed to come out with whatever the people require the 1st time. 
Fortunately I don't do it all that often & then only if there's no way I can get out of it ! It's bad enough doing it for yourself let alone unpaid for someone else!


----------



## Solwriter

The more I look at the new rules on who can apply for and be granted residency, together with the new state healthcare proposals, the more it seems to me that the Spanish Government is intent on making sure they collect as much tax as possible, but are floundering on ways to do this.

And it also seems to me that some of the delays experienced by those applying to be residents are because someone, somewhere understands EU rules and realises that it is not easy at all to expel an EU citizen, even more so once they are a permanent resident in Spain.

Understandable of course, the country needs tax payments badly, but there are ways they could actually get much more revenue and boost the economy, like (as proposed in other threads here) making it easier for small businesses to start up and to operate legally. 
But that's off track.... I just wish they would get their act together on this, once and for all.
But I guess they have more important things to consider at the moment. Like the rise in borrowing costs....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

All of this is
*DOING
MY
'EAD
*IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> All of this is
> *DOING
> MY
> 'EAD
> *IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry!!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Solwriter said:


> Sorry!!!


No, no, no. 
Not you!! 
The whole new regulation thing - AKA we haven't got a clue what we're doing, thing. Is it this, is it that, will it effect me/ him/ them??? They should think it out properly from the beginning, think about all the different groups and sub groups of the population and how they'll be affected, and inform. I mean, they do do this for a living, don't they? Imagine if you and I ran our businesses like this??!!


----------



## Solwriter

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, no, no.
> Not you!!


I know. I was joking. 


Pesky Wesky said:


> The whole new regulation thing - AKA we haven't got a clue what we're doing, thing. Is it this, is it that, will it effect me/ him/ them??? They should think it out properly from the beginning, think about all the different groups and sub groups of the population and how they'll be affected, and inform. I mean, they do do this for a living, don't they? Imagine if you and I ran our businesses like this??!!


Couldn't agree more.


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, no, no.
> Not you!!
> The whole new regulation thing - AKA we haven't got a clue what we're doing, thing. Is it this, is it that, will it effect me/ him/ them??? They should think it out properly from the beginning, think about all the different groups and sub groups of the population and how they'll be affected, and inform. I mean, they do do this for a living, don't they? Imagine if you and I ran our businesses like this??!!


On another local forum I use this has been an ongoing topic for months. One lady deals with the EU regularly & on one of the replies from the EU they stated that they were utterly amazed that they were unable to get an answer to a straightforward question ,at Ministerial level, in Spain ! They said that they got the impression that "no one really had any idea" & they found it "quite worrying". :rofl:
they should think themselves lucky they don't have to deal with them regularly !


----------



## JTapas

Hope someone can help me out here- i'm pretty much at the end of my tether! I'm from the UK and have been working in Andalucia for 18 months over the last two years and have held an NIE number which I have never had to change despite moving from Cadiz to Granada last September. However, at some point during this move, I must have mislayed the original copy of my NIE certificate (the A4 sized green piece of paper rather than the neat little card that a few lucky ones seem to have). I realized this soon afterward and although I knew I would have to replace it, I wasn't too alarmed at the time because my photocopy seemed to suffice in any case that I needed to present the certificate.

Now, as an Engish Teacher I will not be employed this summer and had planned to claim el paro (dole). Most will know that in order to do this you absolutely have to have an original copy of the NIE. This occured to me about three months ago so I decided to get the ball rolling. The ball, however, has rolled so painfully slowly that I now find myself at the end of my 9-month contract still without an actual NIE certificate.

I've been pinged about countless offices all over Granada, having been instructed to pay this, obtain that, take that there blah blah you get the picture. Two and a half months down the line I finally have everything in order and take the lot with me to la oficina de extranjero...only to be told that because of some law that is currently undergoing 'change', the administration of NIEs, whether brand new or simply duplicates, is now unpermitted. They told me to go to la oficina del empleo to ask for a 'written NIE', of which I was very dubious, in order to be able to claim dole. Of course, upon my arrival, the utterly disinterested woman staring back at me over her desk gives me that sort of 'what the hell are you on about and what do you expect me to do about it?' look.

I think I want to cry. Please help me somebody


----------



## Solwriter

JTapas said:


> I've been pinged about countless offices all over Granada, having been instructed to pay this, obtain that, take that there blah blah you get the picture. Two and a half months down the line I finally have everything in order and take the lot with me to la oficina de extranjero...only to be told that because of some law that is currently undergoing 'change', the administration of NIEs, whether brand new or simply duplicates, is now unpermitted. They told me to go to la oficina del empleo to ask for a 'written NIE', of which I was very dubious, in order to be able to claim dole. Of course, upon my arrival, the utterly disinterested woman staring back at me over her desk gives me that sort of 'what the hell are you on about and what do you expect me to do about it?' look.
> 
> I think I want to cry. Please help me somebody


Don't know if this will help or not, but when things like this happen to me, I go back to the office where I was told 'go here and you will be able to do that' and ask them to phone the office they are sending me to and confirm that what they are telling me will happen can actually happen, and get a name of a person I will be able to contact there.

We have had things like this happen so many times, that now we will not leave one office to visit another without at least some form of confirmation that we are not being simply fobbed off.
We are never rude or disrespectful about this, just smilingly insistent.


----------



## Solwriter

Allin said:


> To be honest, I have been going through a lot of posts on here for the last few days and it seems to be getting a bigger headache everytime I read something new. I retired from the fire service because of heart problems and have just been getting quotes for medical insurance for when we come across. £170 a month, thats just for me and I have nt declared any conditions yet !!!!
> 
> Alan


Then you really need to see if you are covered for an S1, so that you can receive state health care.
As you retired in January, you should have enough contributions to cover you, but for how long, Newcastle would be able to work that out for you.

Try not to stress!
(I know it's easier to say than do, but I'm saying it anyway ).
If you go through the process as outlined by xabiachica (allowing for my comments about the S1), then you should be ok.


----------



## xabiaxica

at last word from UKinSpain

Entry & residence requirements



and 

Residency requirements - for information only


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiachica said:


> at last word from UKinSpain
> 
> Entry & residence requirements
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> Residency requirements - for information only


it still doesn't say _how much_ income is required - but the figures we have mooted here of +/- 345€ pp per month would be about right atm


----------



## xabiaxica

on various threads & other forums I have read comments that Spain must be breaking some EU rules demanding this - which of course they aren't

have a look at what the UK requires of EU citizens wishing to register as resident there



> EVIDENCE THAT YOU ARE EXERCISING TREATY RIGHTS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM
> You need to provide documentation to show how you are exercising a treaty right in the United Kingdom. There are a number of options for this.
> •
> If you are working, you need to provide us with proof of your employment. This can be by providing pay slips, a letter from your employer or an employment contract. These documents must show that you are currently exercising treaty rights so need to be dated within six weeks of the date of your application.
> •
> If you are self-employed, you need to provide us with documents to show that you are self-employed. Documents that would support this include evidence of paying national insurance contributions, bank statements which show income earned or accountants’ letters.
> •
> If you are a student, you need to provide a school, college or university letter confirming enrolment on the course. You will also need to provide a statement confirming that you have sufficient financial resources during your period of study along with supporting evidence such as a bank statement or evidence of a grant or scholarship; and evidence that you have comprehensive sickness insurance.
> •
> If you are economically self-sufficient, you need to supply evidence of comprehensive sickness insurance for yourself and any family members included in your application. You also need to supply evidence of funds sufficient to maintain yourself and any family members included in your application during the time you intend to reside on this basis. These funds can come from the employment or self-employment of any of your family members legally working and residing in the UK with you. Documentary evidence of their employment or funds should be supplied.


from here http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/eea/guide-eea.pdf


----------



## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> on various threads & other forums I have read comments that Spain must be breaking some EU rules demanding this - which of course they aren't
> 
> have a look at what the UK requires of EU citizens wishing to register as resident there
> 
> 
> 
> from here http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/eea/guide-eea.pdf


Aah yes but................... there is no requirement in the UK to apply ! If you do then you have to meet the above conditions to get a certificate. 

" A registration certificate is a document issued to an EEA national that confirms that person’s right of residence under European law as at the date of issue. You are not required to have a registration certificate to enter, live or work (or exercise any other treaty right) in the United Kingdom." 
From your link.


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> Aah yes but................... there is no requirement in the UK to apply ! If you do then you have to meet the above conditions to get a certificate.
> 
> " A registration certificate is a document issued to an EEA national that confirms that person’s right of residence under European law as at the date of issue. You are not required to have a registration certificate to enter, live or work (or exercise any other treaty right) in the United Kingdom."
> From your link.


yes......... but of course you can _live _here without a certificate too - you are just limited as to what you can do without that magic bit of paper - but we're all agreed that they're not going to kick you out for not registering - they can't under EU rules


there's a thread running on the UK forum - an EU national has been refused registration at the doctor surgery (in Scotland) because they aren't working - maybe it's going the same way there?


----------



## NickZ

xabiachica said:


> it still doesn't say _how much_ income is required - but the figures we have mooted here of +/- 345€ pp per month would be about right atm


Income tests for foreigners. Surinenglish.com

€5080 so 425 a month?


----------



## xabiaxica

NickZ said:


> Income tests for foreigners. Surinenglish.com
> 
> €5080 so 425 a month?


yes, and the e-mail mrypg got from her ayuntamiento which says 6000€ a year :confused2:


----------



## javierch

The UK has been applying the EU directive since 2006 actually and they are very strict about it and if you are a person from abroad because not exercising treaty rights with a family it would be impossible to live ,study or do anything here .I think they are also not following the EU directive properly on the right to reside as I think ,the matter has been taken to the European Court of Justice . 

Spain has the right to ask for everything apart from a specific income per person for those families on employment or self-employment as the EU directive just says being on employment or self-employment .Minimum hours of work to exercise treaty rights are around 12 or so .Nowhere in the EU directive It says that those in employment or self-employment need private medical insurance or a specific income and only one member of the family has to exercise treaty rights as the others will exercise treaty rights as the family members of a person exercising treaty rights ,so basically .. they are breaking the rules there too ...


----------



## javierch

...


----------



## xabiaxica

javierch said:


> *The UK has been applying the EU directive since 2006 actually and they are very strict about it* and if you are a person from abroad because not exercising treaty rights with a family it would be impossible to live ,study or do anything here .I think they are also not following the EU directive properly on the right to reside as I think ,the matter has been taken to the European Court of Justice .
> 
> Spain has the right to ask for everything apart from a specific income per person for those families on employment or self-employment as the EU directive just says being on employment or self-employment .Minimum hours of work to exercise treaty rights are around 12 or so .Nowhere in the EU directive It says that those in employment or self-employment need private medical insurance or a specific income and only one member of the family has to exercise treaty rights as the others will exercise treaty rights as the family members of a person exercising treaty rights ,so basically .. they are breaking the rules there too ...



I don't think many UK citizens are aware of it though (& why would they be?) judging my all the moans I've seen here & on other forums about Spain tightening things up

so they (Spain/UK/any EU country) can't insist upon a monetary figure - just 'enough so that you aren't reliant on state help' or words to that effect

to be fair I've seen nothing _official_ which gives a figure (unless you count the e-mail mrypg received)

they don't insist on private healthcare unless you _aren't_ employed, either


----------



## NickZ

xabiachica said:


> yes, and the e-mail mrypg got from her ayuntamiento which says 6000€ a year :confused2:


Is the level to receive benefits set nationally or at the regional level?


----------



## NickZ

xabiachica said:


> I don't think many UK citizens are aware of it though (& why would they be?) judging my all the moans I've seen here & on other forums about Spain tightening things up



Same moans when France brought things in.


----------



## xabiaxica

NickZ said:


> Is the level to receive benefits set nationally or at the regional level?


pass:confused2:

without checking the wording there's a bit that says something like 'at the discretion of the person issuing the certificate taking individual circumstances into account'


so maybe it depends if funcionario likes the look of you


----------



## NickZ

I think that means they're supposed to take into account things like having free lodging etc.


----------



## xabiaxica

NickZ said:


> I think that means they're supposed to take into account things like having free lodging etc.


in which case they _can't _set an across the board monetary figure, can they?


----------



## NickZ

They can set a basic number then give the clerk some discretion. 

A person earning 6000 and paying 300 a month in rent is worse off then somebody earning 5000 and paying no rent.


----------



## baldilocks

NickZ said:


> I think that means they're supposed to take into account things like having free lodging etc.


or the size of the brown envelope! or am I being too cynical?


----------



## javierch

I would imagine as soon as one member of the family is working or self-employed they just need to demonstrate the contract or self-employment paperwork .The rest of the family will qualify as the family members of someone exercising treaty rights if the family member is working or self-employed.

Regarding self-sufficient and proving income and the link with benefits 

The non contributory benefits are divided into state ones ,things like pensiones no contributivas de discapacidad y jubilacion ,subsidio de desempleo,Renta Activa de Insercion y el Plan Prepara ....also access to becas,some pay just the fees,others the fees and housing,transport,others pay all of it plus 400 as a salary ..las becas salario .

The person that request one of those benefits wont qualify if his/her own income is over 75 per cent of salario minimum,something like 480 ....but If They are part of a family and someone else earns a salary they will still qualify as soon as the total income divided for the number of people is under that 75 per cent .Or both of them can qualify for it if both unemployed ...if that makes sense although They dont provide these benefits to everybody and they are temporary .It isnt like income support or anything like that .

They have also other benefits that are provided by the CA's called rentas basicas for those no entitle to non contributory benefits or for those that need a top up because for example they only get one of the state non contributory pensions ,etc for an entire family as the others wont qualify for anything else.

They are called different names renta canaria de insercion,ayudas de emergencia social,renta basica de insercion,etc,etc and people go to social services to sort them out ,often they are not paid in time ,etc or they have big delays in processing the applications,etc and they are a bit like income support really but they have their own criteria ,mainly they must have a year or 2 or 3 of empadronamiento in the CA'older that 25,with children ,etc and so on .... 
They provide 75 per cent of salario minimum usually and increase in 10 per cent extra per child to a maximum of 150 per cent of salario minimum for large families.They are usually renovable over and over again in lots of CA's but not in some ..... 

So maybe they ask for those quantities .... 75 per cent ..


----------



## Muddy

xabiachica said:


> in which case they _can't _set an across the board monetary figure, can they?


I have been avoiding even looking for info regarding my scenario because it looks like a bit of a mess now after the recent changes.
I know I've posted on this before but I'm still non the wiser as it seems a grey area!
I aim to buy and have enough in the bank for a few years and hopefully setup a small business most likely in year 2. But where do I stand in all aspects or problems or restrictions regarding house purchase, residency, taxes, the feel good factor (just kidding)!! etc etc now? 
I know I've been told I should be ok but it's just a big old worry if you're relying on what mood the person with the rubber stamp in like on the day, and if they like the look of ya!

baldilocks;


> or the size of the brown envelope! or am I being too cynical?


Please don't give me ideas lol 

NickZ;


> They can set a basic number then give the clerk some discretion.
> A person earning 6000 and paying 300 a month in rent is worse off then somebody earning 5000 and paying no rent.


Good point.


----------



## andymichael

xabiachica said:


> yes......... but of course you can _live _here without a certificate too - you are just limited as to what you can do without that magic bit of paper - but we're all agreed that they're not going to kick you out for not registering - they can't under EU rules


What kind of limitations do you have not getting a certificate? Still on for our 6 month move (at least) in October and unsure whether to bother or not to get one although most probably will.

My brother lived in Spain for 5 years without any residency card/certificate and he had bank accounts etc. and seemingly got by no problem. So just wondered what advantages or disadvantages having or not having a residency permit would bring?


----------



## xabiaxica

andymichael said:


> What kind of limitations do you have not getting a certificate? Still on for our 6 month move (at least) in October and unsure whether to bother or not to get one although most probably will.
> 
> My brother lived in Spain for 5 years without any residency card/certificate and he had bank accounts etc. and seemingly got by no problem. So just wondered what advantages or disadvantages having or not having a residency permit would bring?


you for sure can't get state healthcare, nor a resident bank account - a non-resident one costs more 

in my area you can't buy a car - transfer the papers

you can't register as self employed, or get a SS number for a job

you can't sign on the padrón

if you have kids, you can't get them into school

I can see the time coming when you won't get a long let on a property

you used to be able to do a lot of these things until fairly recently


btw - you are getting a _permit_ as such - you are registering as resident as is your right as an EU citizen


----------



## andymichael

xabiachica said:


> you for sure can't get state healthcare, nor a resident bank account - a non-resident one costs more
> 
> in my area you can't buy a car - transfer the papers
> 
> you can't register as self employed, or get a SS number for a job
> 
> you can't sign on the padrón
> 
> if you have kids, you can't get them into school
> 
> I can see the time coming when you won't get a long let on a property
> 
> you used to be able to do a lot of these things until fairly recently
> 
> 
> btw - you are getting a _permit_ as such - you are registering as resident as is your right as an EU citizen


Ha, well that sounds about right, my brother has no sence with money so he probably just paid for a non-resident account instead of bothering to register.

Did I see on another thread that you also are supposed to hold a permit if driving there with a UK car? Think for the hassle its worth getting one. So from the info if I plan to live off savings I just have to show proof of them, proof of healthcare and I'm done?


----------



## xabiaxica

andymichael said:


> Ha, well that sounds about right, my brother has no sence with money so he probably just paid for a non-resident account instead of bothering to register.
> 
> Did I see on another thread that you also are supposed to hold a permit if driving there with a UK car? Think for the hassle its worth getting one. So from the info if I plan to live off savings I just have to show proof of them, proof of healthcare and I'm done?


Spanish residents can't drive UK plated cars - you have to get it changed to spanish plates (I think within 3 months of registering as resident - check the 'forms etcetcetc...' sticky for the Driving info & threads)

if you're only coming for 6 months though there is some form you can get at customs I think - again - the info is on the driving threads - then you don't have to change the plates

yes that sounds about right - proof of funds & healthcare - if you've been paying NI in the UK it might be worth checking with the DWP in Newcastle to see if you can get the S1 - then you could use the Spanish state health system

it really isn't a hassle (or won't be when they get used to the new regs themselves) - it's just a case of getting the right bits of paper toigether & then most offices do it all there & then


----------



## andymichael

xabiachica said:


> Spanish residents can't drive UK plated cars - you have to get it changed to spanish plates (I think within 3 months of registering as resident - check the 'forms etcetcetc...' sticky for the Driving info & threads)
> 
> if you're only coming for 6 months though there is some form you can get at customs I think - again - the info is on the driving threads - then you don't have to change the plates
> 
> yes that sounds about right - proof of funds & healthcare - if you've been paying NI in the UK it might be worth checking with the DWP in Newcastle to see if you can get the S1 - then you could use the Spanish state health system
> 
> it really isn't a hassle (or won't be when they get used to the new regs themselves) - it's just a case of getting the right bits of paper toigether & then most offices do it all there & then


I'll have to look at that form for the plates then! 

So does anyone know where the nearest office to get a permit from around Estepona is, or where I can find out?


----------



## xabiaxica

andymichael said:


> I'll have to look at that form for the plates then!
> 
> So does anyone know where the nearest office to get a permit from around Estepona is, or where I can find out?


what permit - for the car or the resident one?


the car one I think you have to get as you cross the border

for the resident registration cert there's a link to all the extanjería addresses on that same sticky thread


----------



## andymichael

xabiachica said:


> what permit - for the car or the resident one?
> 
> 
> the car one I think you have to get as you cross the border
> 
> for the resident registration cert there's a link to all the extanjería addresses on that same sticky thread


Resident, but thanks for both!  I'll make sure I have a look through and find the nearest.


----------



## XTreme

Here's an update!

Just went in and renewed our residencia.....which had expired over a year ago apparently.
They wanted the old card, photocopy of old card, NIE, Passport, photos, and completed form. 

They did not want Padron, proof of earnings or income, medical cards etc.

And in 5 minutes we had this ludicrous little bit of paper the size of a credit card.....and that apparently is the new residencia! And it shows no expiry date on it!

So that's the current state of play in Baza, Granada.....for _this_ week!


----------



## xabiaxica

XTreme said:


> Here's an update!
> 
> Just went in and renewed our residencia.....which had expired over a year ago apparently.
> They wanted the old card, photocopy of old card, NIE, Passport, photos, and completed form.
> 
> They did not want Padron, proof of earnings or income, medical cards etc.
> 
> And in 5 minutes we had this ludicrous little bit of paper the size of a credit card.....and that apparently is the new residencia! And it shows no expiry date on it!
> 
> So that's the current state of play in Baza, Granada.....for _this_ week!


I wonder if that's because you are already considered a permanent resident - it was a 5 year 'residencia' card you had, right?


----------



## XTreme

xabiachica said:


> I wonder if that's because you are already considered a permanent resident - it was a 5 year 'residencia' card you had, right?


That's right Lynn.....from early 2006.


----------



## xabiaxica

XTreme said:


> That's right Lynn.....from early 2006.


that's probably why then

lmao - Spain is stuck with you now


----------



## XTreme

xabiachica said:


> that's probably why then
> 
> lmao - Spain is stuck with you now


Yes.....so it's safe to say that************* will continue to be a non-issue on the Iberian peninsula! 

_(Just keeping you and Jo on your toes.....this is no time for complacency)_


----------



## baldilocks

XTreme said:


> _(this is no time for complacency)_


Indeed is there *ever* a time?


----------



## XTreme

baldilocks said:


> Indeed is there *ever* a time?


Well you know what it's like with these women Baldy! They get their feet under the table and start getting complacent! 

I'm just looking out for their interests.....being the gentleman that I am! And it's no secret that I've always stuck up for Jo!


----------



## gracegaldo

Hi everyone, 

I just wanted to share with you our experiences so far with the Oficina de Extranjeros in Granada. We moved here at the beginning of July. I'm English and my husband is from the US. So far we have taken 6 trips to the oficina and each time we have been told something different. They themselves have told us that it's all a big mess right now, and nobody is clear on the rules. 

We primarily need to get my NIE, as I am the EU citizen, then my husband can apply for his NIE. He has a "pre contract" here, guaranteeing him a job as soon as he gets his NIE. 
Twice the office has told us that my husbands work contract will cover my health care too, as he will be receiving social security through his work which will apparently cover me. We have been told once that this is not the case. Another 2 times we were told that my EHIC card is sufficient, and no other insurance is needed. The other time both of these theories were quashed and I was told to go and buy private health insurance. 
My husbands work contract needs an official stamp from INEM...I'm not sure what this is, I'm guessing some kind of official government body, before it can be included in my application. It has also been speculated that to get this stamp, my husband will need an NIE number in the first place. Oh and the vicious cycle begins. 
My husbands future boss is on the case now, hopefully getting this mystery stamp. The best case scenario, as we have been told by the oficina de extranjeros, is this: The contract gets stamped. We apply again. The contract will cover my health insurance and will also be proof of income/ability to support ourselves. I get an NIE. And breathe. 
Worst case scenario (barr me going insane and having a meltdown in front of everyone on our next visit, resulting in be being shipped back to England and sectioned) would be that we cannot get the stamp, or they were wrong all along, and my husbands contract will not cover my health insurance or savings. In this case, I have to obviously take out a private health insurance policy. 

They have also told us that I will need a minimum of 5,000 euros in savings which I can prove by bank statement. Once my husband applies for his NIE, he will need to prove that we have an excess of 8,000 euros in savings, to cover the two of us together (as he is applying as a non EU family member, we are counted together). 

To ice the cake, we have also been told that for my husbands NIE application, we will need to go to the Ayuntamiento and get empadronamiento and submit this with his application. Joy of joys, we cannot do this, because are subletting right now from a couple of hippies who are working in Galecia for the summer, so until we have our own place with a contract (which we probably need an NIE for) or a utility bill in our names (same again) we can't do anything. 

We are waiting on the stamp for my husbands contract now, so hopefully within a week it will be time for another go. I'll keep you all posted on what happens next!


----------



## baldilocks

gracegaldo said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to share with you our experiences so far with the Oficina de Extranjeros in Granada. We moved here at the beginning of July. I'm English and my husband is from the US. So far we have taken 6 trips to the oficina and each time we have been told something different. They themselves have told us that it's all a big mess right now, and nobody is clear on the rules.
> 
> We primarily need to get my NIE, as I am the EU citizen, then my husband can apply for his NIE. He has a "pre contract" here, guaranteeing him a job as soon as he gets his NIE.
> Twice the office has told us that my husbands work contract will cover my health care too, as he will be receiving social security through his work which will apparently cover me. We have been told once that this is not the case. Another 2 times we were told that my EHIC card is sufficient, and no other insurance is needed. The other time both of these theories were quashed and I was told to go and buy private health insurance.
> My husbands work contract needs an official stamp from INEM...I'm not sure what this is, I'm guessing some kind of official government body, before it can be included in my application. It has also been speculated that to get this stamp, my husband will need an NIE number in the first place. Oh and the vicious cycle begins.
> My husbands future boss is on the case now, hopefully getting this mystery stamp. The best case scenario, as we have been told by the oficina de extranjeros, is this: The contract gets stamped. We apply again. The contract will cover my health insurance and will also be proof of income/ability to support ourselves. I get an NIE. And breathe.
> Worst case scenario (barr me going insane and having a meltdown in front of everyone on our next visit, resulting in be being shipped back to England and sectioned) would be that we cannot get the stamp, or they were wrong all along, and my husbands contract will not cover my health insurance or savings. In this case, I have to obviously take out a private health insurance policy.
> 
> They have also told us that I will need a minimum of 5,000 euros in savings which I can prove by bank statement. Once my husband applies for his NIE, he will need to prove that we have an excess of 8,000 euros in savings, to cover the two of us together (as he is applying as a non EU family member, we are counted together).
> 
> To ice the cake, we have also been told that for my husbands NIE application, we will need to go to the Ayuntamiento and get empadronamiento and submit this with his application. Joy of joys, we cannot do this, because are subletting right now from a couple of hippies who are working in Galecia for the summer, so until we have our own place with a contract (which we probably need an NIE for) or a utility bill in our names (same again) we can't do anything.
> 
> We are waiting on the stamp for my husbands contract now, so hopefully within a week it will be time for another go. I'll keep you all posted on what happens next!



INEM also now called SPEE and is the Spanish DHSS
Oficina inem granada (18001) · BuscoEmpresas.es

If you are coming by car, you will see Avenida de la Constitución on the map on that website, just where the name is printed is a carpark that runs underground for most of the length of the Avenida. To the left hand side of that map at the other end of the Avenida is the Virgen de las Nieves - the main hospital (always useful to know)


----------



## NickZ

gracegaldo said:


> We primarily need to get my NIE, as I am the EU citizen, then my husband can apply for his NIE. He has a "pre contract" here, guaranteeing him a job as soon as he gets his NIE.



If I understand his rights come from you. Which means you need to establish residence then he can be considered an accompanying spouse. 

But since you need to establish residence first you've got a timing issue trying to use his work to get health care. 

No?


----------



## gracegaldo

NickZ said:


> If I understand his rights come from you. Which means you need to establish residence then he can be considered an accompanying spouse.
> 
> But since you need to establish residence first you've got a timing issue trying to use his work to get health care.
> 
> No?


Absolutely, it doesn't seem to make much sense as he will not have social security until he gets his NIE, and there will be an overlap there, where we will be uncovered. This is the latest they have told us, so we are just going with it and hoping that they are right about what they say. We can always take out a temporary insurance for an extended trip while we wait for his social security to kick in, but paying for permanent private health insurance would not be easy, any way to avoid this would be great!


----------



## gracegaldo

baldilocks said:


> INEM also now called SPEE and is the Spanish DHSS
> Oficina inem granada (18001) · BuscoEmpresas.es
> 
> If you are coming by car, you will see Avenida de la Constitución on the map on that website, just where the name is printed is a carpark that runs underground for most of the length of the Avenida. To the left hand side of that map at the other end of the Avenida is the Virgen de las Nieves - the main hospital (always useful to know)



Thank you for the info!  I'm going to pass this onto my husbands boss, as she is the one who will be going to get the stamp. She mentioned she may need to get it stamped in Malaga as that is where she is based right now, which according to the oficina, is allowed.


----------



## xabiaxica

gracegaldo said:


> Absolutely, it doesn't seem to make much sense as he will not have social security until he gets his NIE, and there will be an overlap there, where we will be uncovered. This is the latest they have told us, so we are just going with it and hoping that they are right about what they say. We can always take out a temporary insurance for an extended trip while we wait for his social security to kick in, but paying for permanent private health insurance would not be easy, any way to avoid this would be great!


did his company not sponsor him?

or is the position dependent upon him achieving residency as spouse of a resident EU citizen (you)?


----------



## gracegaldo

xabiachica said:


> did his company not sponsor him?
> 
> or is the position dependent upon him achieving residency as spouse of a resident EU citizen (you)?


Yes, unfortunately there is no sponsorship, it's dependent on him having residency through me.


----------



## xabiaxica

gracegaldo said:


> Yes, unfortunately there is no sponsorship, it's dependent on him having residency through me.


ooh - complicated then!!

I guess yu'll just have to bite the bullet & get the health insurance, get your resident registration cert. & then he'll have to apply as your spouse, then?


----------



## gracegaldo

xabiachica said:


> ooh - complicated then!!
> 
> I guess yu'll just have to bite the bullet & get the health insurance, get your resident registration cert. & then he'll have to apply as your spouse, then?


Thats how it's looking now. We still have the small possibility that they may accept his pre-contract as both my health insurance and ability to support myself/ourselves. The lady we have been working on this with seems confident, but we've been though this before with them, there may be another rule change next week! I know it doesn't seem to make much sense, since I will not be entitled to social security until husband officially begins working and has his NIE, and even then I'm still dubious as to whether I'd be covered by his social security. But thats what they are saying right now, so we're going with it! 

If it comes to it and we both have to have private health insurance, we will just have to find a way.
I'm wondering if anyone knows of a long term health insurance provider that they could recommend? Has anyone heard of what type of insurance they are asking for? Eg, long term full coverage or will emergency only suffice?


----------



## xabiaxica

gracegaldo said:


> Thats how it's looking now. We still have the small possibility that they may accept his pre-contract as both my health insurance and ability to support myself/ourselves. The lady we have been working on this with seems confident, but we've been though this before with them, there may be another rule change next week! I know it doesn't seem to make much sense, since I will not be entitled to social security until husband officially begins working and has his NIE, and even then I'm still dubious as to whether I'd be covered by his social security. But thats what they are saying right now, so we're going with it!
> 
> If it comes to it and we both have to have private health insurance, we will just have to find a way.
> I'm wondering if anyone knows of a long term health insurance provider that they could recommend? Has anyone heard of what type of insurance they are asking for? Eg, long term full coverage or will emergency only suffice?


usually if one partner/spouse is paying NI then the other will be covered - he has to make sure he lists you as his dependent though - so I don't see why your situation would be any different

I would imagine full health ins would be required - Sanitas & ASSSA (among others) have been recommended here by members - just be sure to read the small print about cancellation - often you can only cancel at a certain time of year & they want 2 months notice, too


----------



## gracegaldo

xabiachica said:


> usually if one partner/spouse is paying NI then the other will be covered - he has to make sure he lists you as his dependent though - so I don't see why your situation would be any different
> 
> I would imagine full health ins would be required - Sanitas & ASSSA (among others) have been recommended here by members - just be sure to read the small print about cancellation - often you can only cancel at a certain time of year & they want 2 months notice, too


It's nice to know that I will most likely be covered too  I will look into those insurance companies, thank you.


----------



## gus-lopez

Xabiachica. These new '3 month NIE's 'they are issuing up your way do they have 'caduca de tres meses' in the bottom right hand corner & state on them what they are to be used for ? I.E. car purchase , house purchase, etc ? Do they look like this ?


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> Xabiachica. These new '3 month NIE's 'they are issuing up your way do they have 'caduca de tres meses' in the bottom right hand corner & state on them what they are to be used for ? I.E. car purchase , house purchase, etc ? Do they look like this ?


I haven't seen one - but I know people who have thought they had registered as resident & somehow got an expiring NIE - then they have to go back (with the correct forms) & start again - they often don't even realise until they have had to show the cert for something & had it pointed out to them that it has expired

the information on the consulate website for applying for a non-resident NIE from outside Spain says that you have to state why you need it

where did you get that ? I'm not in the least surprised if they are issuing NIEs for special purposes tbh


----------



## baldilocks

gus-lopez said:


> Xabiachica. These new '3 month NIE's 'they are issuing up your way do they have 'caduca de tres meses' in the bottom right hand corner & state on them what they are to be used for ? I.E. car purchase , house purchase, etc ? Do they look like this ?


That looks like the old type of non-resident NIE but with a limited validity on the bottom.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> That looks like the old type of non-resident NIE but with a limited validity on the bottom.


yes, it looks like my old NIE cert which I still have filed somewhere..........


----------



## gus-lopez

This is what they are issuing down in Almeria as posted in a local forum. Apart from the number on it , it doesn't actually state that it is an NIE as the old type did. The original ones , above/below the 'EL Jefe de la Brigada' line was the statement 
Numero de Identidad de Extranjero , in a big box. 

General opinion is that this is probably not legal.


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> This is what they are issuing down in Almeria as posted in a local forum. Apart from the number on it , it doesn't actually state that it is an NIE as the old type did. The original ones , above/below the 'EL Jefe de la Brigada' line was the statement
> Numero de Identidad de Extranjero , in a big box.
> 
> General opinion is that this is probably not legal.


yes, you're right - I just pulled my old one out

it does say *Numero de Identidad de Extranjero *


----------



## gus-lopez

Well this is the situation in the Almeria office ;

" Well... just spoken to my friend in Mojacar who is a Spanish abogado. Yes, this is right. Presently they (Almeria office) are telling people that they need to apply for SEPERATE NIE CERTIFICATES for the following:

House Purchase
Rental
Car Purchase
Telephone
Electricity contact
Water contract
Bank account
Internet connection
Contacts for health insurance (!)

+ a few other things.

Separate application each time. Each certificate only valid 3 months. crazy

If you have an "old" NIE (in other words, a real one) hang onto it. That has no expiry and can be used for any purpose.

The legality of this is highly questionable, and it appears to be "discrimination by the back door" against EU citizens. It will be a nightmare for anyone moving here...

They are also in a complete mess over the Certificate of Registration for EU Citizens, with different offices seemingly unprepared and interpreting things differently. Computer systems not working, officials who don't understand the law... mad. Absolutely mad.

What they should do is scrap this nonsense completely, and fire all the useless paper-pushers involved. They are in a financial crisis - and this is not going to help one bit. " 

With thanks to ramblarider for the above info.


----------



## Muddy

gus-lopez said:


> Well this is the situation in the Almeria office ;
> 
> " Well... just spoken to my friend in Mojacar who is a Spanish abogado. Yes, this is right. Presently they (Almeria office) are telling people that they need to apply for SEPERATE NIE CERTIFICATES for the following:
> 
> House Purchase
> Rental
> Car Purchase
> Telephone
> Electricity contact
> Water contract
> Bank account
> Internet connection
> Contacts for health insurance (!)
> 
> + a few other things.
> 
> Separate application each time. Each certificate only valid 3 months. crazy
> 
> If you have an "old" NIE (in other words, a real one) hang onto it. That has no expiry and can be used for any purpose.
> 
> The legality of this is highly questionable, and it appears to be "discrimination by the back door" against EU citizens. It will be a nightmare for anyone moving here...
> 
> They are also in a complete mess over the Certificate of Registration for EU Citizens, with different offices seemingly unprepared and interpreting things differently. Computer systems not working, officials who don't understand the law... mad. Absolutely mad.
> 
> What they should do is scrap this nonsense completely, and fire all the useless paper-pushers involved. They are in a financial crisis - and this is not going to help one bit. "
> 
> With thanks to ramblarider for the above info.


It's sad the Spanish government is doing stupid things like this, it will only put more people off buying property and put them off getting involved with the country altogether.
Every time I read something like this it knocks me back and makes me think do I really want to move to a country that has a government that seems this stupid, inept and intent on doing the exact opposite to what it should be doing.
Is this just a hidden agenda and a message for foreigners to stay away!
Or perhaps a rather crude way of creating even more red tape to create more work to protect public sector rubber stamping jobs. Does anyone have the answer?
What do Spaniards think about this? This will affect them also when there are less buyers and more property repossessions, more money needed to bail out banks etc etc etc...
It´s time to fight back on things like this, but where do you start?
It must also be worthy a high profile news story. The headline shouldn't be that hard to come up with!


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> They are in a financial crisis - and this is not going to help one bit. "
> .


presumably they charge for each 'certificate'?

sounds like a money making scheme to me........................


----------



## baldilocks

Muddy said:


> It's sad the Spanish government is doing stupid things like this, it will only put more people off buying property and put them off getting involved with the country altogether.
> Every time I read something like this it knocks me back and makes me think do I really want to move to a country that has a government that seems this stupid, inept and intent on doing the exact opposite to what it should be doing.
> Is this just a hidden agenda and a message for foreigners to stay away!
> Or perhaps a rather crude way of creating even more red tape to create more work to protect public sector rubber stamping jobs. Does anyone have the answer?
> What do Spaniards think about this? This will affect them also when there are less buyers and more property repossessions, more money needed to bail out banks etc etc etc...
> It´s time to* fight back *on things like this, but where do you start?
> It must also be worthy a high profile news story. The headline shouldn't be that hard to come up with!


Hold on! Whose country is it? *They* make the rules here just as the British beaurocracy does in UK and the American beaurocracy does in the US, etc.

What do the Spanish think about it? Perhaps they think that we are in part to blame for all the empty properties that were built for *our* accommodation not their's. Perhaps they object to people coming to Spain and living here without paying taxes, driving around in illegal cars, etc., etc.

I do take your point about Spanish beaurocracy being overloaded with people not really gainfully employed, but how different is it from the civil service and local government in UK? or the USA or Australia or...?


----------



## xabiaxica

Muddy said:


> It's sad the Spanish government is doing stupid things like this, it will only put more people off buying property and put them off getting involved with the country altogether.
> Every time I read something like this it knocks me back and makes me think do I really want to move to a country that has a government that seems this stupid, inept and intent on doing the exact opposite to what it should be doing.
> Is this just a hidden agenda and a message for foreigners to stay away!
> Or perhaps a rather crude way of creating even more red tape to create more work to protect public sector rubber stamping jobs. Does anyone have the answer?
> What do Spaniards think about this? This will affect them also when there are less buyers and more property repossessions, more money needed to bail out banks etc etc etc...
> It´s time to fight back on things like this, but where do you start?
> It must also be worthy a high profile news story. The headline shouldn't be that hard to come up with!


the rules for EU citizens wanting to live in the UK are pretty much the same as for those wanting to live in Spain - or Italy, or France..............


----------



## Muddy

baldilocks said:


> Hold on! Whose country is it? *They* make the rules here just as the British beaurocracy does in UK and the American beaurocracy does in the US, etc.
> 
> What do the Spanish think about it? Perhaps they think that we are in part to blame for all the empty properties that were built for *our* accommodation not their's. Perhaps they object to people coming to Spain and living here without paying taxes, driving around in illegal cars, etc., etc.
> 
> I do take your point about Spanish beaurocracy being overloaded with people not really gainfully employed, but how different is it from the civil service and local government in UK? or the USA or Australia or...?


No one is disputing who's country it is!!!
Rules are rules, and wrongs are wrongs! If the US or UK have stupid bureaucracy why should Spain do the same or worse. These rules are not helping Spain they're hurting it. I don't think draconian red tape for the rubber stamping brigade can fix the mistakes of the past. It needs to be easier not harder right now to help people sell off their property and help reduce repossessions and the pain that comes with that for years.
So the companies that kept borrowing cheap cash to build build build and the banks that were happy to keep lending to irresponsible and unscrupulous developers are not to blame but the man and woman on the street is?
But what does not paying tax, driving around in illegal cars have to do with it! That's just people breaking the law and a separate issue and should be dealt with accordingly. Introducing new stupid red tape policy now making it harder for people to settle in Spain, who can bring new money and invest in the country, reduce the so called assets sitting on the banks books that Spain will most likely have to ask for more bailout money to hand over to the banks and then turn up the heat on even more austerity which is then yet another kick in the teeth for everyone.
Actually overall I think it better to leave as many people in work as possible in the public sector. I don't like it but I think its better to have people employed, paying taxes, buying and spending and keeping the economy moving and the cash moving and filtering up through the system. It's very clear to see in the UK giving banks free cash hasn't filtered down at all and they shouldn't get another penny.


----------



## gus-lopez

xabiachica said:


> presumably they charge for each 'certificate'?
> 
> sounds like a money making scheme to me........................


Apparently so.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> They can't possibly make it retrospective. An estimated six million EU immigrants live in Spain. Think of the manpower this would need, at a time when they are laying off _funcionarios_ all over the place.


From El Pais in English



> The government’s model, which includes plans to revoke the health cards of immigrants who do not have their papers in order from September 1


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> From El Pais in English


wow!!


----------



## gus-lopez

" The Ministry figures compare data from July 2012 and July 2011, sidestepping several details, which include the hoarding of drugs by those affected in June. In the run-up to the introduction of copayment, prescriptions increased more than 10 percent and drugs spending, which had been experiencing monthly drops of over four percent, rose 3.8 percent."

The figures would still be corrupted in july because many consultorios , certainly here, work reduced hours in july/august, to the extent that nothing really happens. They do not send anyone for tests unless they have to & most doctors prescribe additional medication to last until september ! If you go in here in june for a repeat monthly prescription you always get 2 to take you through until september when your own doctor is back. 
If you need repeats whilst he is away then you have to make an appointment to see the locum, who is only there for a short while & as their is no receptionist either as she is off all of august making an appointment is a nightmare !


----------



## gracegaldo

So yesterday, after 16 visits to the Oficina de Extranjeros in Granada, I was granted Spanish residency. Ahhhhhh :clap2:

I was starting to think it might never happen. In short, this is what happened:

We tried to use my husbands pre employment contract to cover my need for health insurance and savings/income. We were told we could do this without problem, as long as his contract was stamped by INEM. When his employer took the contract to get the INEM stamp they refused, saying that his employer needs to hire a Spaniard to do the job, or at least go to great lengths to prove that she cannot. This is understandable in the current crisis, except for the fact that you need to be a native English speaker to do my husbands work 

So with that option out, the only option was to go for the traditional route of proving an excess of 5,000 euros in the bank and getting private health insurance. I'm very lucky to have extremely helpful and generous in laws who are willing to lend us the cash to boost our bank balance for a while (we were actually told by the oficina to consider borrowing the money if we needed it. I thought this might be seen as cheating, but apparently not). Then there was another stroke of luck, as the advisor told me that I could use my EHIC card to cover my health insurance for my residencia! So she stapled my bits of paper together, told me to go and pay the bank 10 euros, come back with the receipt and BOOM- residency 

I'm not sure whats going on with the EHIC, as far as I'm aware you can't use that when resident, you have to be a visitor or a student. Either I'm wrong or the Oficina is. But I've got residency and I can start paying some taxes, which Spain should be quite chuffed about  

I though this info might be able to help people who are jumping the same hurdles right now.


----------



## xabiaxica

gracegaldo said:


> So yesterday, after 16 visits to the Oficina de Extranjeros in Granada, I was granted Spanish residency. Ahhhhhh :clap2:
> 
> I was starting to think it might never happen. In short, this is what happened:
> 
> We tried to use my husbands pre employment contract to cover my need for health insurance and savings/income. We were told we could do this without problem, as long as his contract was stamped by INEM. When his employer took the contract to get the INEM stamp they refused, saying that his employer needs to hire a Spaniard to do the job, or at least go to great lengths to prove that she cannot. This is understandable in the current crisis, except for the fact that you need to be a native English speaker to do my husbands work
> 
> So with that option out, the only option was to go for the traditional route of proving an excess of 5,000 euros in the bank and getting private health insurance. I'm very lucky to have extremely helpful and generous in laws who are willing to lend us the cash to boost our bank balance for a while (we were actually told by the oficina to consider borrowing the money if we needed it. I thought this might be seen as cheating, but apparently not). Then there was another stroke of luck, as the advisor told me that I could use my EHIC card to cover my health insurance for my residencia! So she stapled my bits of paper together, told me to go and pay the bank 10 euros, come back with the receipt and BOOM- residency
> 
> I'm not sure whats going on with the EHIC, as far as I'm aware you can't use that when resident, you have to be a visitor or a student. Either I'm wrong or the Oficina is. But I've got residency and I can start paying some taxes, which Spain should be quite chuffed about
> 
> I though this info might be able to help people who are jumping the same hurdles right now.


:clap2:

I have to admit to being confused about the EHIC thing though - you're right that it's for holidaymakers - so I think you got lucky - all done now though 

all you needed for proof of income was 5000€ in the bank? - interesting.............

so just your husband to sort out then?


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## Alcalaina

It's always been possible to use EHIC cards for routine healthcare in Andalucia, even after becoming resident. Official government policy or not, it happens!


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> It's always been possible to use EHIC cards for routine healthcare in Andalucia, even after becoming resident. Official government policy or not, it happens!


yes, it has happened here too..................

but who pays for it?


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## gracegaldo

xabiachica said:


> :clap2:
> 
> I have to admit to being confused about the EHIC thing though - you're right that it's for holidaymakers - so I think you got lucky - all done now though
> 
> all you needed for proof of income was 5000€ in the bank? - interesting.............
> 
> so just your husband to sort out then?


Yep just the hubby to go now....uh oh! 

Yes I'm pretty sure I just got lucky with the EHIC, within the next couple of weeks we will have have full social security set up so it wont be a problem. We just have to keep the high risk activity to a minimum until then!! 

They asked for 5,000 for a single application and 8,000 for a couple applying together. Because my husband is from outside the EU and we are not applying together apparently I only needed the 5,000. I've heard some people say they have been quoted different amounts, so maybe it just depends on what province you are in, or even the person you speak to on the day!


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## xabiaxica

gracegaldo said:


> Yep just the hubby to go now....uh oh!
> 
> Yes I'm pretty sure I just got lucky with the EHIC, within the next couple of weeks we will have have full social security set up so it wont be a problem. We just have to keep the high risk activity to a minimum until then!!
> 
> They asked for 5,000 for a single application and 8,000 for a couple applying together. Because my husband is from outside the EU and we are not applying together apparently I only needed the 5,000. I've heard some people say they have been quoted different amounts, so maybe it just depends on what province you are in, *or even the person you speak to on the day*!


yes - more than likely you're right 

I'm going to copy these last few posts on the 'specific examples' thread


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