# Claiming Incapacity/Disablement Benefit in Spain



## JoCatalunya

My husband is no longer able to work due to an accident at work in Germany. (for which because of German law he cannot claim compensation). Because he is English living in Spain he has been told he cannot receive benefits from Germany. They have suggested he applies in Spain, but the Spanish social security people have told us to apply to England. But they have told us because we live in Spain he cannot claim / receive Incapacity for Work or Disablement Benefit. We are not in a position to return to England. We have no home there to return to and certainly no funds with which to rent a place. We are unable to sell our home here in Spain as first and foremost we do not have a Cedula d'Habilitilidad and even if we could we would be lucky in this crisis ridden time to sell it for enough to pay off the mortgage.

Have any of you guys had any experience with trying to claim benefits over here? Any tips?


----------



## jojo

JoCatalunya said:


> My husband is no longer able to work due to an accident at work in Germany. (for which because of German law he cannot claim compensation). Because he is English living in Spain he has been told he cannot receive benefits from Germany. They have suggested he applies in Spain, but the Spanish social security people have told us to apply to England. But they have told us because we live in Spain he cannot claim / receive Incapacity for Work or Disablement Benefit. We are not in a position to return to England. We have no home there to return to and certainly no funds with which to rent a place. We are unable to sell our home here in Spain as first and foremost we do not have a Cedula d'Habilitilidad and even if we could we would be lucky in this crisis ridden time to sell it for enough to pay off the mortgage.
> 
> Have any of you guys had any experience with trying to claim benefits over here? Any tips?



Surely if he was paying into the German SS system then he should be able to claim through them as thats where he lived and worked when the accident happened??

Jo xxx


----------



## JoCatalunya

jojo said:


> Surely if he was paying into the German SS system then he should be able to claim through them as thats where he lived and worked when the accident happened??
> 
> Jo xxx


You'd think, apparently our case is complicated because he is English working for a German company but is ostensibly living in Spain. 
There is a sort of benefits system, it is called the Berusenongonenshaft (I've spelt that incorrectly I know but for the life of me German might as well be martian it is that understandable to me). They are looking into whether or not they will give my husband a small pension, they have warned us at best it will be 300 euros a month, but it will probably be less. Apparently the German SS (might as well be) then top it up, however, this is where we hit the sticky stuff. Despite having paid into the German SS, they are maintaining he is Spains problem. Who maintain he is the UK's problem. :confused2:


----------



## MaidenScotland

Is there not the equivalent of a European MP in Spain who would fight your cause?

Sorry to hear about your husband and I hope it gets resolved quickly and fairly for you x


----------



## JoCatalunya

MaidenScotland said:


> Is there not the equivalent of a European MP in Spain who would fight your cause?
> 
> Sorry to hear about your husband and I hope it gets resolved quickly and fairly for you x


Thank you. We have consulted lawyers but can no longer afford to do so as we have run out of savings, (didnt have that much to start with). We have written to our local MEP (if one can be classed as local) but in the meantime between the letter being read and some miracle being pulled out of a hat we have no money coming in. Even if we do get something from the Berusenongonenschaft people it won't be enough to pay the mortgage so our house will end up being repossessed. However, if we could somehow get onto benefits we might just be able to scrape through. 

Thing is my hubby served his country in 3 wars, paid his dues and has never been out of work from the day he left school and when he needs help no one is willing to step forward.


----------



## Caz.I

JoCatalunya said:


> Thank you. We have consulted lawyers but can no longer afford to do so as we have run out of savings, (didnt have that much to start with). We have written to our local MEP (if one can be classed as local) but in the meantime between the letter being read and some miracle being pulled out of a hat we have no money coming in. Even if we do get something from the Berusenongonenschaft people it won't be enough to pay the mortgage so our house will end up being repossessed. However, if we could somehow get onto benefits we might just be able to scrape through.
> 
> Thing is my hubby served his country in 3 wars, paid his dues and has never been out of work from the day he left school and when he needs help no one is willing to step forward.


Hi there,
Firstly, if you are on a low income you can apply for legal aid in Spain through the Colegio de Abogados in your local court. It is a real nightmare paperchase (and takes a couple of months before you are assigned a lawyer) but it can be done. Or else, you might be able to apply for Legal Aid through the European commission, or may be even the German system??. Secondly, I dont know if it will help but I will post the link for the European Judicial Network website regarding legal issues - they list quite extensive information regarding the law in each of the countries in the EU and also for EU Law and I think there might be something there about compensation. They should at least be able to clarify which country the law should apply in. If you have been unable to resolve it through the German courts and everyone is just passing the buck, then the next recourse I imagine would be the European Courts? European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal order - Community law

Re the house situation, is there no possibility of renting out your house and you and your husband moving out to rent a smaller place or something?

Also, this might not be quite the right place, but this link is for the Spanish organisation for the disabled, they may be able advise you on benefits. 
Confederación Española de Personas Con Discapacidad Física y Orgánica : COCEMFE
I was under the impression that anyone who has a certain degree of disability (I think they seem to classify it by percentage) and resident in Spain and could prove it with a doctor's certificate, would be classified anyone else with the same amount of disability and therefore entitled to the same benefits. Also try Social Services, and even the Spanish SS again, sometimes you get different info with a different person . Good luck with it all, anyway.


----------



## James3214

Sorry to hear of your circumstances, but I would of thought that if you had an 'accident' whilst working in Germany in paid employment (rather than subcontracting) then you should be rightly compensated by the insurers of the company (just the same as in any other EU country?). Who told you that you 'cannot claim because of German law'? It sounds like they are trying to fob you off and get out of a costly compensation case? Did you get a German lawyer to look at the case? Germany has some of the best employee protection laws in Europe.


----------



## youngagepensioner

You can only claim Sickness/Disability Benefits from the UK whilst abroad if you were already claiming them before you went abroad. i.e You already claim them in the UK, then go abroad and continue to claim them.

Hope this helps.


----------



## xicoalc

youngagepensioner said:


> You can only claim Sickness/Disability Benefits from the UK whilst abroad if you were already claiming them before you went abroad. i.e You already claim them in the UK, then go abroad and continue to claim them.
> 
> Hope this helps.


That´s absolutely right. You can export some benefits from the UK (Care part of DLA but not mobility (or the otehr way round)), and ESA in certain circumstances (this depends on the type of sickness and prognosis, and aso the type of ESA you are claiming...whether it has been granted indefinately or short term, and whether you are claiming income or contributions related. You cannot claim from the UK if you don´t live there anymore. You actually will have a job to claim even if you do live there if you have been out of the country for a certain period of time (as a friend of mine is finding out right now).


----------



## pg1710

If you go onto the direct.gov.uk website there is a benefit calculator and advisor tool that will tell you what help you can get from the uk benefits, if you fill it all in accurately it'll even give you your amounts specific to you and most of the benefits can now be claimed online then when you reeive the paperwork you just send back any originals needed.


----------



## jojo

pg1710 said:


> If you go onto the direct.gov.uk website there is a benefit calculator and advisor tool that will tell you what help you can get from the uk benefits, if you fill it all in accurately it'll even give you your amounts specific to you and most of the benefits can now be claimed online then when you reeive the paperwork you just send back any originals needed.


I think you have to be living in and paying into the UK system to claim any benefits. Once claiming, there are one or two that can be exported if you leave the country. However, in this particular case, the injury was caused while working in Germany and the persons address was in Spain


Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

this is all very true, but none of it will help the OP who hasn't lived in the UK for some years, and whose husband became disabled in Germany


I think James3214 & Caz.1's suggestions are the best routes JoCatalunya can take


----------



## pg1710

They may still be able to get uk help if they've worked in the uk in the past and paid enough stamp, they may not get the income related side of the benefits but may well be able to get contribution side of them, personally i'd still give it a go, you can only get declined.


----------



## jojo

pg1710 said:


> They may still be able to get uk help if they've worked in the uk in the past and paid enough stamp, they may not get the income related side of the benefits but may well be able to get contribution side of them, personally i'd still give it a go, you can only get declined.


hhhmm... I think the first hurdle would be having the injury verified by their British GP and not having a British home address. But to claim any benefits in the UK you must be paying into the system. Retrospective payments dont count. The fact that the new government has tightened up the procedures evenmore wont help sadly. As Xabiachica says, James and Caz1 probably are suggesting the best course of action



Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> hhhmm... I think the first hurdle would be having the injury verified by their British GP and not having a British home address. But to claim any benefits in the UK you must be paying into the system. Retrospective payments dont count
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I just had a really good look at the directgov site

it always comes back to living in the UK - & some of the benefits are exportable if you are already getting them before you move

but nowhere can I see that you can get any help if you are already living abroad


----------



## nigele2

xabiachica said:


> this is all very true, but none of it will help the OP who hasn't lived in the UK for some years, and whose husband became disabled in Germany
> 
> 
> I think James3214 & Caz.1's suggestions are the best routes JoCatalunya can take


xabia might be true but there are surely some very serious considerations for many who pass by here. I expect this "finding yourself abandoned" might well also apply to anyone working illegally in Spain.

What I do not understand is surely as any company in the UK it is a requirement in Germany for an employer to have insurance. If one of our employees had an accident even if they were subsequently living in Timbuktu I'd be very annoyed  if the insurance didn't pay out. The OP did say this was an accident at work - not an illness !! 

But I'd go with pg1710 and claim in parallel everywhere even if that meant creating a dummy UK address. But all the best with this JoCatalunya :boxing:


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> But I'd go with pg1710 and claim in parallel everywhere even if that meant creating a dummy UK address. But all the best with this JoCatalunya :boxing:


 Its worth a try, but you must be careful with dummy addresses - cos you'll need a dummy GP who's register you are on, dummy consultant, a dummy NI number and soooooo many other things, that if you start going up that route, you could end up with a "not so dummy" fine!!!! NOT ADVISED!

Jo xxxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Its worth a try, but you must be careful with dummy addresses - cos you'll need a dummy GP who's register you are on, dummy consultant, a dummy NI number and soooooo many other things, that if you start going up that route, you could end up with a "not so dummy" fine!!!! NOT ADVISED!
> 
> Jo xxxx


that's just what I was thinking!!


----------



## pg1710

NO, i didn't mean frauduantly


----------



## xabiaxica

pg1710 said:


> NO, i didn't mean frauduantly


so how??

if you need a UK address, doctor & so on - & you don't have one - how??


----------



## pg1710

xabiachica said:


> so how??
> 
> if you need a UK address, doctor & so on - & you don't have one - how??


As far as i knew not all benefits require you to be resident in the uk, but as i said there are different grades of the same benefit with different qualifying critieria, probally the best bet would be citizens advice and hope they can help you via email or telephone with advice.


----------



## xabiaxica

pg1710 said:


> As far as i knew not all benefits require you to be resident in the uk, but as i said there are different grades of the same benefit with different qualifying critieria, probally the best bet would be citizens advice and hope they can help you via email or telephone with advice.


yes, there are a few, such as winter fuel payment

but afaik (I'm 99.99999999% certain) that you have to be claiming them BEFORE you move abroad


----------



## pg1710

xabiachica said:


> yes, there are a few, such as winter fuel payment
> 
> but afaik (I'm 99.99999999% certain) that you have to be claiming them BEFORE you move abroad


again its a dodgy one as it again depends on when and much contributions have been paid as, it seems wrong that if you've paid into the system some time before then surely if you need help you should entitled to it , and if not then the same should for state pension.


----------



## xabiaxica

pg1710 said:


> again its a dodgy one as it again depends on when and much contributions have been paid as, it seems wrong that if you've paid into the system some time before then surely if you need help you should entitled to it , and if not then the same should for state pension.


yes, it does seem wrong - but it's how it is

you do get your UK state pension though, no matter where you live when you reach retirement age (& as long as you have paid into the UK system)


----------



## xicoalc

xabiachica said:


> yes, there are a few, such as winter fuel payment
> 
> but afaik (I'm 99.99999999% certain) that you have to be claiming them BEFORE you move abroad


You are absolutely right Xabia. Even if you have paid in all your life in the UK, once you become resident in another country you cannot claim DLA or ESA. You can only export existing benefits if the original claim was awarded when you were in the UK.


----------



## jojo

My understanding is that private and state pensions/healthcare are something you pay into and get it back when you reach a certain age (probably 105 by the time I'm entitled). The other benefits are treated like any insurance cover and that is that while you pay in you're covered, but when you stop paying in, then your policy is no longer valid (think car or house insurance)!!! That may not be accurate, but that is my understanding. 


Jo xxx


----------



## nigele2

jojo said:


> My understanding is that private and state pensions/healthcare are something you pay into and get it back when you reach a certain age (probably 105 by the time I'm entitled). The other benefits are treated like any insurance cover and that is that while you pay in you're covered, but when you stop paying in, then your policy is no longer valid (think car or house insurance)!!! That may not be accurate, but that is my understanding.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Exactly so Jo but if you have an accident while insured, even if the insurance later lapses, you are still entitled. So I'd have thought pursuing the employer was most likely in this case to be successful. 

On the UK approach I was imagining the OPs other half could nip back over to the UK and get a doctor. You could be looking at payments for the rest of your life so 6 months back home might prove a good investment. Presumably he still has an NI number and a NHS number. They don't get erased as far as I am aware.

But let's hope someone steps up to the plate


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> Exactly so Jo but if you have an accident while insured, even if the insurance later lapses, you are still entitled. So I'd have thought pursuing the employer was most likely in this case to be successful.
> 
> On the UK approach I was imagining the OPs other half could hope back over to the UK and get a doctor. You could be looking at payments for the rest of your life so 6 months back home might prove a good investment. Presumably he still has an NI number and a NHS number. They don't get erased as far as I am aware.
> 
> But let's hope someone steps up to the plate


 But he wasnt insured if he was working in another country and not paying his national insurance in the UK. Thats like me crashing my spanish car and trying to claim from my insurance I used to have on the car I used to have in the UK!

I think the right and fairest thing to do would be to claim from the country in which the accident took place

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> But he wasnt insured if he was working in another country and not paying his national insurance in the UK. Thats like me crashing my spanish car and trying to claim from my insurance I used to have on the car I used to have in the UK!
> 
> I think the right and fairest thing to do would be to claim from the country in which the accident took place
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, absolutely right. He mentioned not being able to claim any compo from the company that caused the injury... I would take them to the cleaners if it was me!


----------



## nigele2

steve_in_spain said:


> Yes, absolutely right. He mentioned not being able to claim any compo from the company that caused the injury... I would take them to the cleaners if it was me!


Exactly

Jo I was referring to where the responsibility lies so I think we are all at one here. Fingers crossed for them because sadly while they may end up with something it may be too late 

ps But I do think this should be of interest to many potential 'expats'.


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> Exactly
> 
> Jo I was referring to where the responsibility lies so I think we are all at one here. Fingers crossed for them because sadly while they may end up with something it may be too late
> 
> ps But I do think this should be of interest to many potential 'expats'.


The responsibility in this case IMO (from whats been said), lies with the German employer, who, even if they werent employing him "legally" should be made accountable!

Yes this is useful to all expats, it certainly shows how important it can be to make sure everything is right. 

Jo xxx


----------



## xicoalc

jojo said:


> The responsibility in this case IMO (from whats been said), lies with the German employer, who, even if they werent employing him "legally" should be made accountable!
> 
> Yes this is useful to all expats, it certainly shows how important it can be to make sure everything is right.
> 
> Jo xxx


All businesses should hold Employers liability insurance and public liability insurance which is usually for something rediculous like 10,000,000. The idea behind this is that if an employee is injured (or for example a member of the pub lic is injured on your premises) then should their claim proove succesful the insurance pays whatever the judge decides (or whatever is settled out of court).

In the event of a case whereby (for example) someone is a skilled tradesman who needs his hands for his work... if he lost an arm then he would expect a payout that would cover...

a) the financial losses he would suffer from not being able to continue his normal skilled craft for the rest of his life (so we are talking a SERIOUS chunk of money here)

b) the long term financial suffering (for example, if he cant work, he cant pay his pension so the financial losses in retirement would be calculated in also)

c) financial recompense for the trauma, stress, inconvenience, and effect on general life.

Naturally, insurers employ skilled lawyers to try to minimise these claims but certainly in the UK there are a lot of good "no win no fee" lawyers who will take on such cases and fight tough to get you what you shoudl be entitled to. Im not sure about no win no fee in germany. Certainly in Spain its not so common, BUT household insurance often comes with legal cover for things like this too..... If the employer doesnt exist anymore,in many cases you can still claim from the insurance that was in force at the time. If there was no insurance then the owner, director, etc of the business could be held liable. As I said previously, I would be interested to learn why the OP feels he cant claim from his employer.


----------



## JoCatalunya

James3214 said:


> Sorry to hear of your circumstances, but I would of thought that if you had an 'accident' whilst working in Germany in paid employment (rather than subcontracting) then you should be rightly compensated by the insurers of the company (just the same as in any other EU country?). Who told you that you 'cannot claim because of German law'? It sounds like they are trying to fob you off and get out of a costly compensation case? Did you get a German lawyer to look at the case? Germany has some of the best employee protection laws in Europe.


My husband was injured whilst working for Diehl BGT Defence in Maasburg, Saarland. We were informed that because of an arrangement with the Berusenongonenschaft, organised by the Goverment that Compensation is not payable, but rather a Rente or pension is payable for the rest of ones life (includes medical expenses etc). We were told this by a Lawyer.


----------



## JoCatalunya

When my husband signed his contract, he made sure there was insurance cover. The actual wording in the contract is....

In the event of invalidity the named person shall be covered 
In the event of death the named person shall be covered

There was no part thereof mentioned in the contract with regards invalidity, yet suddenly the insurers are saying, loss of arm, 10,000 euros, loss of eye, 10,000. We have pointed out that in the contract there is as I have just said 'no part thereof' mentioned, so by rights he should be paid the full amount he is insured for as he will never work again. 

However, when the insurance company sent us a copy of the actual cover, we found a wonderful little snippet or three which totally left us dumbfounded.

1st.... cover does not apply for accidents at work.
2nd... cover does not recognise PTSD as being a proper illness.
3rd... a claim had to be made within 6 months, (we asked the company to register a claim but they didnt, citing many excuses whilst refusing to actually tell us who the insurers were so we couldnt do it ourselves). 
Our case was handed over to the Berufsgesonenschaft (think I've got the spelling right there) who we were told would take care of my husbands health and any potential expenses incurred due to the accident. We are forever having to call them, to remind them of my husbands problems and rarely receive any kind of positive feedback or communication.


----------



## Claire la richarde

As I understand it, all employers in Germany have to pay into a compulsory accident compensation system, implemented by accident insurance carriers (Berufgenossenshaften).

This system precludes civil damage suits by the insured against the business owner - you can't sue for compensation.

If the insurance, of which details were sent, specifically excludes accidents at work, is it likely to have been separate from the compulsory system?

On the compulsory system, to quote the article linked to below,
"[it] has the legal responsibility to provide comprehensive medical, occupational and social rehabilitation benefits upon the occurrence of an accident or the onset of an occupational disease. The objective of this mandate is, insofar as possible, to restore the health and the reintegration of the injured into work and society."

This involves receiving medical, occupational and social rehabilitation, going to the insurer's approved doctors, hospitals and counsellors. 

"During rehabilitation, the injured have a claim to continued payment of wages by the employer in the first period of the inability to work as a result of the incident (at least six weeks by the union contract). Then the carrier must provide “replacement pay” during the period of the medical rehabilitation. The disability payment corresponds, generally, to the net salary at the time of the incident-with deductions for the employees’ contribution to social security and unemployment insurance (at present almost 13 per cent). During occupational rehabilitation, a transitional wage replacement benefit is paid, which is somewhat less than the disability payment. These benefits are paid throughout the duration of the medical and occupational rehabilitation so that the insured and their families are financially secure. Continued payment of premiums to the other branches of the social security system prevents any gaps in insurance coverage."

Then, if necessary, "insured persons receive annuities as compensation for remaining health problems from a work-related accident or occupational illness. These pensions are granted only at the close of the rehabilitation process and assume a definite decrease in earning capacity (generally 20%) for a minimum time period (beyond 13 weeks after the work-related accident). The annuities are calculated according to the degree of decrease in earning capacity and the annual earned income."

But... would the insured person have to be in Germany to go through this process?

There's more detail about this on the International Labour Organization website at PREVENTION, REHABILITATION AND COMPENSATION IN THE GERMAN ACCIDENT INSURANCE SYSTEM


----------



## James3214

I think you mean the 'Berufsgenossenschaft' or the 'Government Safety Association'. It really does sound like you need a lawyer working for you on this case. From their behaviour it's appears they are trying to avoid compensating you properly. 

I must admit I don't know much about this 'Berufsgenossenschaft' and what their responsibilities or duties to you are but I will post a link to this thread on the German forum in the hope that someone might be able to help. In the meantime, I will investigate further and post if I find anything else out.


----------



## JoCatalunya

To say I am gobsmacked that complete strangers are trying to help us more than the so called professionals at BG ETEM and my husbands employers is an understatement. I have have learnt more thanks to you all and felt the warmth sent to us and am truly grateful.

BG, as I will call them have been paying my husband his sick pay but as we have reached and indeed passed the 78 weeks mark they have stopped paying him anything and no one has told us what we are supposed to live on whilst BG are making up their mind as to whether or not they are going to pay my husband the Rente or pension he is surely entitled to due to the fact he is now disabled thanks to the accident and can no longer work.

I cannot remember if I have told you just how the accident affected him but he has PTSD, Chronic Depression, Mood Swings, Memory loss (short term is completely screwed), loss of balance, loss of sense of taste and smell, loss of middle range hearing (due to high frequency noise levels) loss of organisational capability, degenerative lung disorder all due to the toxic gases he inhaled during a serious incident. 

He is/was a professional, an engineer, who now cannot work thanks to this stupid, avoidable accident that everyone is brushing under the carpet and my husband aside.


----------



## jojo

JoCatalunya said:


> To say I am gobsmacked that complete strangers are trying to help us more than the so called professionals at BG ETEM and my husbands employers is an understatement. I have have learnt more thanks to you all and felt the warmth sent to us and am truly grateful.
> 
> BG, as I will call them have been paying my husband his sick pay but as we have reached and indeed passed the 78 weeks mark they have stopped paying him anything and no one has told us what we are supposed to live on whilst BG are making up their mind as to whether or not they are going to pay my husband the Rente or pension he is surely entitled to due to the fact he is now disabled thanks to the accident and can no longer work.
> 
> I cannot remember if I have told you just how the accident affected him but he has PTSD, Chronic Depression, Mood Swings, Memory loss (short term is completely screwed), loss of balance, loss of sense of taste and smell, loss of middle range hearing (due to high frequency noise levels) loss of organisational capability, degenerative lung disorder all due to the toxic gases he inhaled during a serious incident.
> 
> He is/was a professional, an engineer, who now cannot work thanks to this stupid, avoidable accident that everyone is brushing under the carpet and my husband aside.


No one wants to see someone go through what you and he are going through, especially without anyone taking the responsibility of what happened! So yes, we all care and if we can offer or find the right advise we will. I sense from your posts that you are a "tough cookie" tho and you are the strength and support he needs! but you also need justice and financial help. Hopefully you'll get it one way or t'other! 

Jo xxx


----------



## JoCatalunya

jojo said:


> No one wants to see someone go through what you and he are going through, especially without anyone taking the responsibility of what happened! So yes, we all care and if we can offer or find the right advise we will. I sense from your posts that you are a "tough cookie" tho and you are the strength and support he needs! but you also need justice and financial help. Hopefully you'll get it one way or t'other!
> 
> Jo xxx


It would be nice if they said sorry, but thus far all they have said is we don't believe he is as hurt as you say he is, despite doctors telling them he is no longer able to work due to his injuries etc.


----------



## Caz.I

JoCatalunya said:


> BG, as I will call them have been paying my husband his sick pay but as we have reached and indeed passed the 78 weeks mark they have stopped paying him anything and no one has told us what we are supposed to live on whilst BG are making up their mind as to whether or not they are going to pay my husband the Rente or pension he is surely entitled to due to the fact he is now disabled thanks to the accident and can no longer work.
> 
> I cannot remember if I have told you just how the accident affected him but he has PTSD, Chronic Depression, Mood Swings, Memory loss (short term is completely screwed), loss of balance, loss of sense of taste and smell, loss of middle range hearing (due to high frequency noise levels) loss of organisational capability, degenerative lung disorder all due to the toxic gases he inhaled during a serious incident.
> 
> He is/was a professional, an engineer, who now cannot work thanks to this stupid, avoidable accident that everyone is brushing under the carpet and my husband aside.


That's outrageous! Sounds like you will need a German lawyer who specialises in Employment Law, and maybe you can get Legal Aid through the European Commission or something? And don't give up until you win! :boxing:


----------



## JoCatalunya

Caz.I said:


> That's outrageous! Sounds like you will need a German lawyer who specialises in Employment Law, and maybe you can get Legal Aid through the European Commission or something? And don't give up until you win! :boxing:


Oh we won't give up, but as for winning, I can only wish that we will, but I fear we will lose our home and my husband what is left of his dignity.


----------



## Claire la richarde

JoCatalunya said:


> It would be nice if they said sorry, but thus far all they have said is we don't believe he is as hurt as you say he is, despite doctors telling them he is no longer able to work due to his injuries etc.


From what I've read, it seems likely that the BG will only pay out a pension if _its_ doctors say he can no longer work.

Two things occur to me.

1. Is/Was your husband a member of a trade union or professional association which might provide assistance?

2. Legal aid does exist in Germany, and apparently does apply to employment cases, and to people who aren't domiciled in Germany.
Some information here European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal aid - Germany.

Point 4 says "Assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme (advice and, where necessary, representation) is given in civil cases including employment, administrative, constitutional and social cases."

Point 8 says "The application for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme is submitted to the local court, in the district where the applicant is resident (domicile). Where the applicant has no domicile in Germany, responsibility lies with the local court where the need for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme arises. It is also possible to contact a lawyer directly for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme."

Might it be worth trying to find a lawyer in the relevant area - presumably Maasburg - who takes on employment cases under the Legal Advice Scheme?

Of course, you may have already tried these routes, in which case apologies.


----------



## JoCatalunya

Claire la richarde said:


> From what I've read, it seems likely that the BG will only pay out a pension if _its_ doctors say he can no longer work.
> 
> Two things occur to me.
> 
> 1. Is/Was your husband a member of a trade union or professional association which might provide assistance?
> 
> 2. Legal aid does exist in Germany, and apparently does apply to employment cases, and to people who aren't domiciled in Germany.
> Some information here European Commission - European Judicial Network - Legal aid - Germany.
> 
> Point 4 says "Assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme (advice and, where necessary, representation) is given in civil cases including employment, administrative, constitutional and social cases."
> 
> Point 8 says "The application for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme is submitted to the local court, in the district where the applicant is resident (domicile). Where the applicant has no domicile in Germany, responsibility lies with the local court where the need for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme arises. It is also possible to contact a lawyer directly for assistance under the Legal Advice Scheme."
> 
> Might it be worth trying to find a lawyer in the relevant area - presumably Maasburg - who takes on employment cases under the Legal Advice Scheme?
> 
> Of course, you may have already tried these routes, in which case apologies.


We were up until you posted the info unaware that legal aid existed, much less we as non Germans / non residents might be able to get it. This could prove to be a very useful piece of info, thank you.

My husband is ex military so trade unions are an animal he doesnt recognise, saying that he actually joined UNITE, who promptly told him after they had taken his money that they wouldnt help him because his accident happened in Germany. They knew who employed him and where they were based and took his money only to drop that on us when we had occasion to ask them for help. Nice people don't you think. By the way I use the term accident loosely, because it was negligence on the companies behalf not to mention criminal so usually I call it an incidence. So denoting a difference because of between something which couldnt be avoided and what happened to my husband which could.


----------



## Seb*

JoCatalunya said:


> By the way I use the term accident loosely, because it was negligence on the companies behalf not to mention criminal so usually I call it an incidence. So denoting a difference because of between something which couldnt be avoided and what happened to my husband which could.


Reading this makes my hairs stand up. When was the incident? As a german I can tell you, you could make hell break lose for your husbands former employer, including compensation. All this as long as there was a legal contract involved (was he officially employed with contract and social security?). Companies have to have insurance for cases like that for a reason. Protection of workers and employees in germany is of a very high standard.

And ofc your first and only way to get compensation is via german courts, something that should have been kicked off immediatly after the accident happened! And if you want help by a union it has to be a local one.


----------



## James3214

If it helps here are a few English advertised German law firms that specialize in Employment law (Arbeitsrecht). They obviously will need to speak English but try contacting them explaining your situation and if they can't help I am sure they can recommend someone that could.

HOTZE Lawyers - Employment Law - Frankfurt am Main

WINHELLER Rechtsanwälte | Wirtschaftsrecht, Kapitalmarktrecht, Gewerblicher Rechtsschutz, Stiftungsrecht, Nonprofitrecht

Ulrich Ziegler - Skadden, Arps
(although probably more corporate level)

I wish you luck. Looks like you have been badly treated and I can only hope that you both get the help and compensation and that you obviously.

Incidentally, where is Maasburg?  I could only find a company by that name down by the Bodensee.


----------



## JoCatalunya

James3214 said:


> If it helps here are a few English advertised German law firms that specialize in Employment law (Arbeitsrecht). They obviously will need to speak English but try contacting them explaining your situation and if they can't help I am sure they can recommend someone that could.
> 
> HOTZE Lawyers - Employment Law - Frankfurt am Main
> 
> WINHELLER Rechtsanwälte | Wirtschaftsrecht, Kapitalmarktrecht, Gewerblicher Rechtsschutz, Stiftungsrecht, Nonprofitrecht
> 
> Ulrich Ziegler - Skadden, Arps
> (although probably more corporate level)
> 
> I wish you luck. Looks like you have been badly treated and I can only hope that you both get the help and compensation and that you obviously.
> 
> Incidentally, where is Maasburg? I could only find a company by that name down by the Bodensee.


The Head Office is in Uberlingen on the Bodensee. Maasburg is in Saarland, this is where they build and test their products.


----------



## mickybob

I am almost sure that the OP has been given the run around. A friend of mine worked in Germany felling trees. One fell on him, he is now confind to a wheel chair. The people he worked for told him he cant claim as he was self employed. He had to fight through court to prove he was not self employed. He won, sued the employer and after a few years won his case. 

This is probably going on here, tell them they cant claim, and hope they go away. I'd advise get a good lawyer in Germany and fight it.

Good luck.


----------



## mrypg9

JoCatalunya said:


> We were up until you posted the info unaware that legal aid existed, much less we as non Germans / non residents might be able to get it. This could prove to be a very useful piece of info, thank you.
> 
> *My husband is ex military so trade unions are an animal he doesnt recognise, saying that he actually joined UNITE, who promptly told him after they had taken his money that they wouldnt help him because his accident happened in Germany*. They knew who employed him and where they were based and took his money only to drop that on us when we had occasion to ask them for help. Nice people don't you think. By the way I use the term accident loosely, because it was negligence on the companies behalf not to mention criminal so usually I call it an incidence. So denoting a difference because of between something which couldnt be avoided and what happened to my husband which could.


I'm sorry to hear of your problems and if the accident was due to negligence on the part of the employer I cannot see why they are able to evade responsibility. Were the police etc informed? Was the accident reported to the German equivalent of the Health and Safety Inspectorate? If not, why not? What documentation of the accident do you have?
I must say though that your comments about Trades Unions are a bit unfair. Your husband joined after the accident....it is not the function of a Trades Union to act as a lawyer for a person who joins up expecting that. Professional Associations and Trades Unions exist to further members salaries/wages and conditions of employment throughout their working lives which is why I joined my professional association on the day I started my career. ..Was he a member of a Union whilst working in Germany?
I have had a fair bit of experience of case work for my professional association though and tomorrow I will make enquiries about possible action via a contact in the International Department at TUC London.
Accidents at work through employer negligence must surely come under the same homogenised employment laws throughout the EU... it is the responsibility of the employer to provide redress if a case can be made against him/her.


----------



## JoCatalunya

mrypg9 said:


> I'm sorry to hear of your problems and if the accident was due to negligence on the part of the employer I cannot see why they are able to evade responsibility. Were the police etc informed? Was the accident reported to the German equivalent of the Health and Safety Inspectorate? If not, why not? What documentation of the accident do you have?
> I must say though that your comments about Trades Unions are a bit unfair. Your husband joined after the accident....it is not the function of a Trades Union to act as a lawyer for a person who joins up expecting that. Professional Associations and Trades Unions exist to further members salaries/wages and conditions of employment throughout their working lives which is why I joined my professional association on the day I started my career. ..Was he a member of a Union whilst working in Germany?
> I have had a fair bit of experience of case work for my professional association though and tomorrow I will make enquiries about possible action via a contact in the International Department at TUC London.
> Accidents at work through employer negligence must surely come under the same homogenised employment laws throughout the EU... it is the responsibility of the employer to provide redress if a case can be made against him/her.


The police were informed and indeed attended the incidence, however, due to the sensitive nature of the work, official secrets and all that they were not allowed in the building. Besides it was considered unsafe as there were around 30 warheads sat on workbenches nearby to where the resultant fire had been and so the company claimed it was unsafe for civilians to enter.
The German equivalent were informed about the incidence, but later admitted that they had only been allowed in to see the site where it took place 3 weeks after. As you can imagine it was all nice and tidy for them to walk into. However, we have a couple of photographs taken by a very nice guy who was particularly helpful which show some of the aftermath, however even these do not show you the full extent of what went on not to mention the horror of it all.
My husband joined UNITE, 10 years ago, after much nagging from me when he was working for BAe. He was a member when he worked in Germany and we had informed the union that he was no longer working for a British company but a German one and that he would be based in Germany, they said no problem. They even said that they were amalgamating with a German union over there so we should send in our subsciption as per usual. This we did and got dropped the moment we had recourse to ask them for advice and help.

With regards documentation, the only thing we have is the two photos, we have repeatedly asked for information/reports etc on the incident only to be told. 
1) That the incident was covered by DATA PROTECTION, after I pointed out this is for the protection of information about individuals not accidents, they went on to say.
2) My husband was not cleared to know anything about what went on. 

How stupid is that, he was involved in the incident, he was in the thick of it and only the day before had warned those in charge that what they were doing was breaking NATO rulings with regards the testing of the items involved. 

By the way, my husband is not like the other folk employed at this site, they are all civilians and quite honestly are monkey see monkey do, they are not trained explosive engineers, nor are they armourers. They to a man thought what they were doing was okay but someone had told them it was, they didnt have the knowledge to decide otherwise for themselves.

As I have previously posted, the company after the incident changed everything they do in relation to testing the item involved, they now follow NATO approved test proceedures. 

Now if it was okay the way they were doing it, why did they think to change it, why did they fix what wasnt supposedly broken?


----------



## mrypg9

JoCatalunya said:


> The police were informed and indeed attended the incidence, however, due to the sensitive nature of the work, official secrets and all that they were not allowed in the building. Besides it was considered unsafe as there were around 30 warheads sat on workbenches nearby to where the resultant fire had been and so the company claimed it was unsafe for civilians to enter.
> The German equivalent were informed about the incidence, but later admitted that they had only been allowed in to see the site where it took place 3 weeks after. As you can imagine it was all nice and tidy for them to walk into. However, we have a couple of photographs taken by a very nice guy who was particularly helpful which show some of the aftermath, however even these do not show you the full extent of what went on not to mention the horror of it all.
> My husband joined UNITE, 10 years ago, after much nagging from me when he was working for BAe. He was a member when he worked in Germany and we had informed the union that he was no longer working for a British company but a German one and that he would be based in Germany, they said no problem. They even said that they were amalgamating with a German union over there so we should send in our subsciption as per usual. This we did and got dropped the moment we had recourse to ask them for advice and help.
> 
> With regards documentation, the only thing we have is the two photos, we have repeatedly asked for information/reports etc on the incident only to be told.
> 1) That the incident was covered by DATA PROTECTION, after I pointed out this is for the protection of information about individuals not accidents, they went on to say.
> 2) My husband was not cleared to know anything about what went on.
> 
> How stupid is that, he was involved in the incident, he was in the thick of it and only the day before had warned those in charge that what they were doing was breaking NATO rulings with regards the testing of the items involved.
> 
> By the way, my husband is not like the other folk employed at this site, they are all civilians and quite honestly are monkey see monkey do, they are not trained explosive engineers, nor are they armourers. They to a man thought what they were doing was okay but someone had told them it was, they didnt have the knowledge to decide otherwise for themselves.
> 
> As I have previously posted, the company after the incident changed everything they do in relation to testing the item involved, they now follow NATO approved test proceedures.
> 
> Now if it was okay the way they were doing it, why did they think to change it, why did they fix what wasnt supposedly broken?


Firstly, apologies....I had mistakenly supposed that he had joined Unite after the accident - a lot of people do that as I'm sure you know.
Something stinks here. Whatever the nature of the work carried out, no company is beyond the law. If it is a military installation then the military police will have jurisdiction. If it's a civil enterprise then the civil police can investigate if a complaint is made. Consider....could they have refused to call in the police, whether civil or military, if, say, a rape or other serious assault had taken place and a complaint had been made? No company is exempt from Health and Safety regulations. If the work carried out is dangerous then the more stringent the H&S requirements.
This Company seems to me trading on your supposed ignorance of law, lack of German language and the fact that you live in Spain and aren't on the spot to make nuisances of yourselves.
From what you have said, you have a case. No company has an opt-out clause for H&S in Germany, the UK or any developed EU member state. The more dangerous the work, the more detailed the precautions. The Data Protection Act has nothing to do with work accidents as you rightly pointed out. The company is required by law to have a system for reporting accidents however trivial. Was this done? If not, that is a serious breach of regulation in itself.
I think you should contact a German law firm specialising in this kind of industrial accident case. In the UK Thomsons who are located in Congress House, London, do that kind of thing. It might be worth ringing them to ask their advice.
It might be worth considering contacting the German media...but this must be a last resort when the legal route fails to work.
As he is incapacitated and unfit for work I guess your husband was hospitalised so he will have a medical record to back up his claim. 
He will get nothing from the UK in terms of Incapacity/Invalidity Benefits as I seem to remember these are contribution based - although if he worked for BAE and was in the forces he must have made a fair few NI contributions. 
It's complicated by the fact that he is a British citizen who had an accident whilst working for a German Company in Germany and is now living in Spain.
But the facts are that he suffered incapacitating injuries as a result of what you consider to be negligence by his employer who seems to be telling you a whole load of Scheisse (sorry Seb!).
And the employer should not get away with that.


----------



## mrypg9

Another thought occurs to me: what about the other employees who were involved or were at the premises at the time? What happened to them? Did they receive compensation?
My OH who owned a Company which handled toxic materials (although not warheads!) had to take special insurance cover and submit to frequent unannounced H&S inspections. 
I don't understand how any Company can present a workplace insurance policy which specifically excludes work-related accidents.....


----------



## JoCatalunya

mrypg9 said:


> Firstly, apologies....I had mistakenly supposed that he had joined Unite after the accident - a lot of people do that as I'm sure you know.
> Something stinks here. Whatever the nature of the work carried out, no company is beyond the law. If it is a military installation then the military police will have jurisdiction. If it's a civil enterprise then the civil police can investigate if a complaint is made. Consider....could they have refused to call in the police, whether civil or military, if, say, a rape or other serious assault had taken place and a complaint had been made? No company is exempt from Health and Safety regulations. If the work carried out is dangerous then the more stringent the H&S requirements.
> This Company seems to me trading on your supposed ignorance of law, lack of German language and the fact that you live in Spain and aren't on the spot to make nuisances of yourselves.
> From what you have said, you have a case. No company has an opt-out clause for H&S in Germany, the UK or any developed EU member state. The more dangerous the work, the more detailed the precautions. The Data Protection Act has nothing to do with work accidents as you rightly pointed out. The company is required by law to have a system for reporting accidents however trivial. Was this done? If not, that is a serious breach of regulation in itself.
> I think you should contact a German law firm specialising in this kind of industrial accident case. In the UK Thomsons who are located in Congress House, London, do that kind of thing. It might be worth ringing them to ask their advice.
> It might be worth considering contacting the German media...but this must be a last resort when the legal route fails to work.
> As he is incapacitated and unfit for work I guess your husband was hospitalised so he will have a medical record to back up his claim.
> He will get nothing from the UK in terms of Incapacity/Invalidity Benefits as I seem to remember these are contribution based - although if he worked for BAE and was in the forces he must have made a fair few NI contributions.
> It's complicated by the fact that he is a British citizen who had an accident whilst working for a German Company in Germany and is now living in Spain.
> But the facts are that he suffered incapacitating injuries as a result of what you consider to be negligence by his employer who seems to be telling you a whole load of Scheisse (sorry Seb!).
> And the employer should not get away with that.


No they shouldn't but I fear that as each day rolls by it is going to get harder and harder to get anything out of them. But trust me when I say, I will not go down without a fight.

With regards the benefits. If we cannot get anything from the UK side we will be stuffed I fear. The German system allows for a small pension to be paid to those injured and unable to work. Just as long as the doctors say he is disabled and a committee of workers decide to award him said pension because of. Thing is they are talking as if 200-300 euros is a fortune and as you know you can spend that much on a mega shop in one go, so how the heck is it supposed to keep us for a month. My husbands medication, which the Cat Salut, (Catalunian version of the National Health) have told us they won't pay for costs 200 euros a month minimum. Now whilst the Germans tell us that they will pay for any costs related to medical / medication just as long as it is in connection with the injuries sustained by/because of the accident for the rest of my husbands life. What they sent to the Cat Salut people is a form saying every 3 months they will reassess and pay if they find the bill to be acceptable. Add to this the fact that in the past they have not paid the clinic where my husband has been treated for his PTSD on time you can guess what will happen. As it is we have decided not to burden the Cat Salut with my husbands aftercare, instead we are going down the private route and the Germans can pay for it. I know that might seem petty, but my husband now faces 3 monthly CT scans for the rest of his life in order to watch for Cancer which he is now at a very high risk of getting. He has lost over 40% lung function in the past 18 months and if they continue to go downhill faces life on oxygen and worse still a possibility of his needing a lung transplant, so I think we have the right to be just a tad petty if not downright petulant. 

Whilst it is true no amount of money will give my husband his health back, nor wipe away the trauma he suffered or the heartache he and the rest of us have suffered, fact is, it will at least help to keep a roof over his head if nothing else.


----------



## JoCatalunya

mrypg9 said:


> Another thought occurs to me: what about the other employees who were involved or were at the premises at the time? What happened to them? Did they receive compensation?
> My OH who owned a Company which handled toxic materials (although not warheads!) had to take special insurance cover and submit to frequent unannounced H&S inspections.
> I don't understand how any Company can present a workplace insurance policy which specifically excludes work-related accidents.....


As we are not allowed to speak to them, they have been told not to speak with us, we cannot be sure what has happened save from a little snippet someone let slip. Apparently they have been given an assurance (that they can take to the bank so to speak) that they will have a job for life. No if's no but's, they will never, ever be sacked, made redundant or for that matter demoted. No such offer has been made to my husband, why, because he isn't German, that's why.

One of the guys was badly burnt and apparently has difficulty using his hands, not only has he kept his job, although he has been moved to a different section, he also gets a pension from the German State System, so whilst it was terrible he was injured he is compared to my husband in a win, win situation. 

None of the others involved in the incident inhaled the toxic gases my husband inhaled as they were at the far end of the room and / or in another room from where the exhaust fumes from the item were burning. My husband was less than 3 metres from an exhaust spewing out toxic gases and another which was on fire spewing out the crud said would in his direction, whilst above his head another part of the item was whizzing around hitting walls and tables. Had he stood up it would have cut him in half so fact was he couldnt move. He could only move when one of the other guys in the room shouted the all clear. My husband couldnt see his hand in front of his face and was in fact near to losing conciousness but somehow managed to drag himself up and out of the building. By the way the fire doors were on fire and there was no fire suppression system in the building so the fire had to be put out by the company fire brigade. 

When my husband was taken to hospital no one informed them what gases my husband had been exposed too, it was the helpful guy who told my husband to tell them what he had inhaled. He was not washed down, because the hospital was under refurb and so he was left with acid (by product of one of the gases coming into contact with water) on his skin. For months he had a rash that only went away after he received treatment here in Spain. His shirt which had holes burnt through it after my husband breathed out a foam onto it was thrown away by the hospital, They announced after 2 days my husband was fit to go home, he did so, but was not well in the least, he was coughing constantly, couldnt catch his breath and so on. He had to insist on seeing a specialist about his lungs etc. It was shortly after as well the PTSD kicked in. 

Want to hear something really funny, except it isnt. The Bundeswehr (German Military) carried out an inspection (my husband saw the guy doing it) and passed the whole process (the same process my husband said wasn't and was proved right) as being safe. Fact is the guy who did the inspection was younger than our youngest son and didn't know his backside from his elbow. 

Now doesn't that instill a load of confidence in you. 

Another snippet, this is the 3rd accident at this munitions factory within the space of 2 years, in the UK they would have been shut down for this sort of record.

So is there any wonder all I want to do to the company is :boxing:


----------



## mrypg9

I may be missing something but with the facts as you have presented them I can't see why you don't approach a lawyer specialising in these issues with the aim of prosecuting the company. It seems you have a sound case, one I would certainly have taken on when I was involved in case work (my 'speciality' was employment discrimination law).
From what you have said, the German, UK and Spanish benefits systems have acted correctly. The very fact that he has been awarded some benefit however insufficient indicates that there is a recognition that his health has been damaged by a workplace accident.
So....your course of action seems clear, as other posters have indicated: take legal action against Diehl. You have medical evidence and can make written statements.
Diehl is your enemy, not Unite or the various state welfare systems. So go for them. Ring Thomson tomorrow, as I suggested, and keep us informed.


----------



## JoCatalunya

mrypg9 said:


> I may be missing something but with the facts as you have presented them I can't see why you don't approach a lawyer specialising in these issues with the aim of prosecuting the company. It seems you have a sound case, one I would certainly have taken on when I was involved in case work (my 'speciality' was employment discrimination law).
> From what you have said, the German, UK and Spanish benefits systems have acted correctly. The very fact that he has been awarded some benefit however insufficient indicates that there is a recognition that his health has been damaged by a workplace accident.
> So....your course of action seems clear, as other posters have indicated: take legal action against Diehl. You have medical evidence and can make written statements.
> Diehl is your enemy, not Unite or the various state welfare systems. So go for them. Ring Thomson tomorrow, as I suggested, and keep us informed.


To date BG ETEM, the state benefit people in Germany have not awarded my husband anything, they merely indicated that he may get a small pension. However, yesterday we discovered they had moved the goalposts so to speak. Now they have said my husband must be classed as 80% disabled / invalided by the accident in order to receive any money. Thus far the doctors have not given us an indication of how affected my husband is, in their eyes that is.

We have consulted 2 big law firms in Germany only to be told that they will not take on this kind of case because they believe we are after compensation. Well we are. Why shouldnt we be? They have reiterated that in German law/culture it is not possible to sue for compensation as an agreement between Government. Employers and Unions have concluded that payments into a fund (BG ETEM) is the best for all concerned. 

In the meantime my husbands health is continuing to deteriorate and we are fast running out of money so we are not sure how we will pay the mortgage next month.

I went to see the bank manager about a breather period etc. He told me to get anything sorted would cost me 1500 euros at the notary. Money as he pointed out that would pay nearly 2 months mortgage.


----------



## Caz.I

JoCatalunya said:


> To date BG ETEM, the state benefit people in Germany have not awarded my husband anything, they merely indicated that he may get a small pension. However, yesterday we discovered they had moved the goalposts so to speak. Now they have said my husband must be classed as 80% disabled / invalided by the accident in order to receive any money. Thus far the doctors have not given us an indication of how affected my husband is, in their eyes that is.
> 
> We have consulted 2 big law firms in Germany only to be told that they will not take on this kind of case because they believe we are after compensation. Well we are. Why shouldnt we be? They have reiterated that in German law/culture it is not possible to sue for compensation as an agreement between Government. Employers and Unions have concluded that payments into a fund (BG ETEM) is the best for all concerned.
> 
> In the meantime my husbands health is continuing to deteriorate and we are fast running out of money so we are not sure how we will pay the mortgage next month.
> 
> I went to see the bank manager about a breather period etc. He told me to get anything sorted would cost me 1500 euros at the notary. Money as he pointed out that would pay nearly 2 months mortgage.


Sounds like you need to either find a better German lawyer, ie one that is willing to fight for you, or take your case to the European courts.

Meanwhile, is there no way you could try to rent out your place temporarily?


----------



## JoCatalunya

Caz.I said:


> Sounds like you need to either find a better German lawyer, ie one that is willing to fight for you, or take your case to the European courts.
> 
> Meanwhile, is there no way you could try to rent out your place temporarily?


We looked into this, however, as we are unable to get a Cedula d'Habilitilidad certificate for our house, despite our house being legal etc, the law states we can't let our house out. Unless we want to do it illegally which leaves us open to all kind of trouble I don't think it is an option. Though we have not discounted it completely.


----------



## jojo

JoCatalunya said:


> We looked into this, however, as we are unable to get a Cedula d'Habilitilidad certificate for our house, despite our house being legal etc, the law states we can't let our house out. Unless we want to do it illegally which leaves us open to all kind of trouble I don't think it is an option. Though we have not discounted it completely.


I've rented four different properties since I've been in Spain and viewed many more - I've yet to see one thats being legally rented out, either with or without an agent!??

Jo xxx


----------



## briancleverley

jojo said:


> Surely if he was paying into the German SS system then he should be able to claim through them as thats where he lived and worked when the accident happened??
> 
> Jo xxx


hi joe we are in a simular position but we are pensioners so we do have a small income my wife is in a wheelchair cant walk cant stand i have been told to contact the british legion the british government certainly wont help but if your hubby as been in the forces the legion is your best bet were are you in catalunya ??? brian


----------



## briancleverley

jojo said:


> I've rented four different properties since I've been in Spain and viewed many more - I've yet to see one thats being legally rented out, either with or without an agent!??
> 
> Jo xxx


hi jojo my wife is in a wheelchair 75percent disabled i was wondering whats your area like for wheelchair access and what are the rents like on properties like in your area??? we live gandesa area and are thinking of moving to a different area we are both pensioners brian


----------



## jojo

briancleverley said:


> hi jojo my wife is in a wheelchair 75percent disabled i was wondering whats your area like for wheelchair access and what are the rents like on properties like in your area??? we live gandesa area and are thinking of moving to a different area we are both pensioners brian



The trouble with Spain (this area) is its very hilly! I can only think of one house that we've lived in that would be easy for a wheelchair or disabled access. Alhaurin de la Torre which is a modern town is fairly easy for wheelchairs (Altho not perfect), so IMO that would be one to look at. Ask a letting agent what they have


Jo xxxxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> The trouble with Spain (this area) is its very hilly! I can only think of one house that we've lived in that would be easy for a wheelchair or disabled access. Alhaurin de la Torre which is a modern town is fairly easy for wheelchairs (Altho not perfect), so IMO that would be one to look at. Ask a letting agent what they have
> 
> 
> Jo xxxxx


just about all of Spain is hilly!! - Spain is the 2nd most mountainous country in europe!

the little bit of my town where I live is flattish

at least that's what I thought until I took my dad out in the wheelchair the other day

usually we go in a straight line from home to the seafront - but that day I had to go to a few different shops off our usual route

boy are those little slopes big when you are pushing a wheelchair!!

also, since I used to be in a wheelchair (completely for a year, just now & again now) I though I was fairly aware when it comes to access - you can get into almost all of the bars here - but almost none of the shops

the curb drops are good though, so it's not too hard a task (except the uphill bit)


----------



## jojo

jojo said:


> The trouble with Spain (this area) is its very hilly! I can only think of one house that we've lived in that would be easy for a wheelchair or disabled access. Alhaurin de la Torre which is a modern town is fairly easy for wheelchairs (Altho not perfect), so IMO that would be one to look at. Ask a letting agent what they have
> 
> 
> Jo xxxxx


I wrote my previous message quickly, but to elaborate a bit more. It has to be said that Spain doesnt seem to cater as much as the UK for disabled residents - yet. The problem is that it is very hilly. Our local village (Benalmadena Pueblo) has 66 steps from the car park (with disabled bays to the village unless you go the long, steep, hilly way round)!! It tries in certain parts but its a long way from being perfect. As I previously said, Alhaurin de la Torre is a modern town and does have slopes as well as steps and is making an effort, but its by no means perfect, altho if you can find yourselves a small corner to call "your patch" then you may find you'll live comfortably (hence asking an agent). The costas arent too bad either, in the main altho, they are crowded in the summer, alot of paths and walkways are quite narrow, so there are still many areas that would be difficult

Jo xxx


----------



## peepers

*Abf*



JoCatalunya said:


> Thank you. We have consulted lawyers but can no longer afford to do so as we have run out of savings, (didnt have that much to start with). We have written to our local MEP (if one can be classed as local) but in the meantime between the letter being read and some miracle being pulled out of a hat we have no money coming in. Even if we do get something from the Berusenongonenschaft people it won't be enough to pay the mortgage so our house will end up being repossessed. However, if we could somehow get onto benefits we might just be able to scrape through.
> 
> Thing is my hubby served his country in 3 wars, paid his dues and has never been out of work from the day he left school and when he needs help no one is willing to step forward.


Hi i have just read that your husband was in the armed forces , i am in the same boat with regard to people helping,
Firstly i am sorry to hear about your husband , but may i ask direct Qs to enable me to assist.

How long did he serve.
Is he in the Royal British Legion
What Regiment /Corps did he serve in
Have you continued to pay your NI into the UK system.
How long did you live in married quarters.



The following organisations are there to help not judge and they are always there to help,
SAFFA,ABF,H4H,RBL,AF veterans agency.

If an ex service person (note my good PC skills there lol) is on a sticky wicket and just needs to get back to uk, they will get him there trust me. please answer them all very accurately as it is so important .


----------



## briancleverley

xabiachica said:


> just about all of Spain is hilly!! - Spain is the 2nd most mountainous country in europe!
> 
> the little bit of my town where I live is flattish
> 
> at least that's what I thought until I took my dad out in the wheelchair the other day
> 
> usually we go in a straight line from home to the seafront - but that day I had to go to a few different shops off our usual route
> 
> boy are those little slopes big when you are pushing a wheelchair!!
> 
> also, since I used to be in a wheelchair (completely for a year, just now & again now) I though I was fairly aware when it comes to access - you can get into almost all of the bars here - but almost none of the shops
> 
> the curb drops are good though, so it's not too hard a task (except the uphill bit)


hi thanks for the info yes as you say most of spain is hilly which ever way we go we have to navigate hills one way or the other i often wonder what happens to all the spanish people if they become disabled especially those that live in the tiny houses and narrow streets we live in a rented appartment well big enough for a wheelchair the only place my wife cant get is round my half of the bedroom thats were i hide all my money ha ha ha :focus:


----------

