# Fiscal residency/183 days Query?



## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

I have a question around the 183 days rule in relation to fiscal residency. 

I am planning to move from Ireland in the next few months and was looking into the tax side of things. If I move, I will continue to be paid into my account in Ireland as I will be going back there regularly and would like to keep things simple. However it looks like I would end up being resident in Spain for more than the minimum 183 days. 

My question is, how would the Spanish tax system ever know I was in the country for more than 183 days? Does anyone know how this is monitored or have any ideas how this could catch up with me? 

I don't want to have to pay taxes in two places is the main reason behind this.

Thanks in advance.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Mr. Meeseeks said:


> I have a question around the 183 days rule in relation to fiscal residency.
> 
> I am planning to move from Ireland in the next few months and was looking into the tax side of things. If I move, I will continue to be paid into my account in Ireland as I will be going back there regularly and would like to keep things simple. However it looks like I would end up being resident in Spain for more than the minimum 183 days.
> 
> ...


If you are making Spain your permanent home (wife, family, property etc) then you may well be deemed tax resident before the 183 days anyway.

The simple answer is that you have to prove otherwise. They are also checking electricity consumption and if it's 'normal', then you must be living there.


Whilst you will pay tax in both countries, you can offset the tax paid in UK against Spanish tax.

What are you doing about NI or SS payments? How will you get health care in Spain?


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks for coming back to me snikpoh. 

The idea is to move over indefinitely (until work need me back) and continue to get paid in Ireland and pay tax/social security there. I reckon that means that I am immediately a permanent resident in Spain. 

I have a NIE from a couple of years ago when I was there for a summer and am wondering if I fail to declare myself will I be found out? Like who is keeping track of the amount of days I'm in the county and then going looking for me. Could I not just leave from France or other means and they not know I was in the country for the 183 days?

For healthcare I will probably sign up for private health insurance with my bank over in Spain. 

Thanks again.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

The short answer is they generally do not know. To keep legal you should comply, alas 10s of 1000s don't


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

If you're going to be living in this country for more than half the year, don't you think you ought to be contributing something to the public services and infrastructure anyway? If you pay tax on your income in Ireland you would only need to pay the difference between the Spanish tax due and the Irish tax already paid, which seems fair enough to me.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

There is less hassle making a tax declaration in Spain than not doing so, chances are that you will not pay tax, we have had rebates in the past. Plus the tax office will complete the return for you.


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> The short answer is they generally do not know. To keep legal you should comply, alas 10s of 1000s don't


That's what I thought alright ya. Thanks.


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> If you're going to be living in this country for more than half the year, don't you think you ought to be contributing something to the public services and infrastructure anyway? If you pay tax on your income in Ireland you would only need to pay the difference between the Spanish tax due and the Irish tax already paid, which seems fair enough to me.


Absolutely and I'm sure I will. I just don't want to get taxed ridiculously as I already pay enough tax here in Ireland. But as you said it would only be the difference that I would need to pay in Spain so maybe that wont be too bad. Further investigation required here. Thanks for the response.


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

Hepa said:


> There is less hassle making a tax declaration in Spain than not doing so, chances are that you will not pay tax, we have had rebates in the past. Plus the tax office will complete the return for you.


Ya. I definitely don't need any trouble catching up with me down the line and I'm sure it would eventually. 

When you say the tax office will complete my return. What do you mean there? Sorry I'm a complete n00b when it comes to this side of life.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Mr. Meeseeks said:


> Ya. I definitely don't need any trouble catching up with me down the line and I'm sure it would eventually.
> 
> When you say the tax office will complete my return. What do you mean there? Sorry I'm a complete n00b when it comes to this side of life.


you can make an appt with the tax office, they ask you questions & fill the form in for you

they tell you if you owe anything 

& Roberto es tu tío .....


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

The UK has a similar tax treaty with Spain as the UK re ties, where if you move to Spain without any ties to the UK, you will be deemed a resident of Spain the day you arrive. I just had the decision made by Canada, and I have been deemed a resident of Spain retroactively, from the day I landed in Spain last year. I think that's what Snikpoh is referring to - that the 183 days do not apply if you move to Spain with no ties.


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> you can make an appt with the tax office, they ask you questions & fill the form in for you
> 
> they tell you if you owe anything
> 
> & Roberto es tu tío .....



Thanks for that xabiachica. Would I need to be a resident in the country before going there do you know?


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## Mr. Meeseeks (Sep 8, 2015)

AllHeart said:


> The UK has a similar tax treaty with Spain as the UK re ties, where if you move to Spain without any ties to the UK, you will be deemed a resident of Spain the day you arrive. I just had the decision made by Canada, and I have been deemed a resident of Spain retroactively, from the day I landed in Spain last year. I think that's what Snikpoh is referring to - that the 183 days do not apply if you move to Spain with no ties.


Hi AllHeart, 
Thanks for the info. I'd imagine I would fall into the same boat so if I moved over there. What do you mean by no ties out of interest?

Thanks,


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Meeseeks said:


> Hi AllHeart,
> Thanks for the info. I'd imagine I would fall into the same boat so if I moved over there. What do you mean by no ties out of interest?
> 
> Thanks,


You're most welcome. I meant to say above that Canada and UK have similar treaties with Spain with regards to determining residency. Sorry about that. 

If you look under Article 4 and 5 of the UK-Spain tax treaty, that's where they talk about residency status. Especially note Article 4.1 and 4.2. Here's the tax treaty: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/412302/spain-dtc.pdf


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Mr. Meeseeks said:


> Thanks for that xabiachica. Would I need to be a resident in the country before going there do you know?


We made an appointment and went to the tax office in June to make our annual declaration. We had to take with us our passports and original NIE certificates. By the way, if you have a resident bank account (which can be much cheaper than a non-resident account if you pay in a certain amount each month as then you can get an account with no charges) the tax office will automatically have your details. My husband opened a bank account here for the first time last November, and when we went to the tax office for a preliminary visit to see if we needed to submit a form to get him entered into the tax system, they said it wasn't necessary and showed him all his details on screen!

We took copies of letters confirming what our pensions amounted to, and copies of all our bank statements in Spain and the UK, but they didn't want to see any of those. I had written out a list of our income from pensions and savings interest, and they just entered the figures I had supplied and showed us a comparison to allow us to decide whether it was more beneficial for us to submit a joint return or an individual one. Then they asked if we wanted to pay by direct debit and whether we would pay in one lump sum or two instalments, we signed the direct debit form and they printed off a copy for us and a copy of the tax return, and that was that. Very simple and painless process.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I expect fluent Spanish required for a visit to tax office?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> I expect fluent Spanish required for a visit to tax office?


I wouldn't say you need to be fluent because there are actually very few questions they need to ask you, especially if you write everything down for them in advance as I did, but yes, you do need to be able to speak some Spanish.


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