# Question for those who have built a house in Mexico..



## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

I am getting ready to start building my house here in Guanajuato. 

To get a building permit the city requires the signature and seal of a licensed architect on your plans. Once you have the permit you have two ways to build -- having an architect manage the project or working directly with the albaniles from the plans to build the house. 

We started out with the idea of directly hiring the albaniles, but the first group we started to work with gave me ridiculous prices, no doubt thinking I was a wealthy, dumb gringp. (I am a ****** but I'm not wealthy and I hope I'm not dumb!) So, we cut that off right away.

We then met an architect who we wanted to draw up the plans (I had already done the design, we just needed a properly done drawing for the city). He offered to manage the project and gave us a very low package price for the whole deal -- he builds the house and hands over the keys for X pesos. It seemed a good deal to us so we seriously considered it. 

Then he said he needed all the money up front "to buy materials". In my book that's not how large projects are done and it sounded strange so I began asking around if that was normal procedure here for such a project. We were told that no, it isn't. All the people we talked to who had gone the architect-managed route had had bad experiences like poorly built foundations and cheap acabados (finishings). All the folks who skipped the architect had had more positive experiences.

I told the architect that there was no way I'd pay that kind of money up-front and he got very angry. I asked for a price for just the plans and doing the city paperwork with his seal/signature and he gave me a price four times higher than anyone we talked to had payed. So, we ended that one too.

I was just recommended a group of albaniles by a good friend. He says they built his house, his brother's and his daughter's and they are honest and that and my friend and his family are very happy with the work they did. I met them and they seem competent and easy to work with. I am now looking back down that road.

So my question is:
Do any of you that have gone through the building process have any advice as far as working with architects or just going directly to the albaniles?

Thanks for any help,
Sorry for the long post!


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I am in the process of building an adobe house just outside Dolores Hildago and only a proper size set of drawings is required for the permit, guess it al depends where you build, Suerte y paz


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks Chicois8,
So I guess the only difference here is that the architect has to sign and seal. 

2 questions:

I assume you are just building directly with albaniles, no architect involved after doing the plans?

I have always dreamed of an adobe house but was told it is far more expensive. Do you have a guestimate of how much more adobe is than tabique (brick)?


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I am paying 7 1/2 pesos per adobe brick, but I have no square corners so there are many curved corner bricks that are custom made....


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Check with the municipio office and they may have an engineer in house. I took a table napkin drawing to them and they produced the required plan to build for less than 1000 pesos. Then there is the 6-7000 more to complete the process. Prices are going up around here.

Finding the right workers is the toughest part. I went thru 4 sets to finally get quality, reasonable pay and really nice guys. Too many that either just want your money or are not really pros.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Quotes are either done by the sq meter (depending on difficulty) ... either laying brick or stucco .... or pay them by the week. By the week you have to be there every day unless you have real special guys. I'm paying by the week because there are so many details and I think of changes as they move along


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

We hired a local builder, who supplied the crew and directed them from time to time. I was on site and pitched in on many jobs, so the 'maestro albanil' knew and respected my capabilities. We all got along and learned from each other. The builder charged no more than 500 pesos per week for arranging deliveries & helping with layout details. Maestros and laborers were paid every Saturday morning, as were 'notas' for all materials that week. No problems and we're still all good friends.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

I have a neighbor who is having extensive modification done on his house. He has hired the workers directly. He pays the foreman $2500 pesos/week and the other laborers 1500/week. They work for him full time, 5 days a week. The foreman is very competent and very honest and often saves him money.

Also a comment on adobe versus other materials. I live in an old adobe house. The bedrooms all face to the south. In the winter they get direct sun on the sides and the adobe stores enough heat from the afternoons that they are toasty warm on these cold mornings. In the summer the sun is to the north so the rooms don't get direct sun and they are comfortable in the heat of the afternoon. So my recommendation is that adobe would be worth some extra cost for the added comfort. And also I suggest it would be very smart to pay attention to the orientation vis a vis the sun when planning the layout of rooms and windows. It certainly played a big role when I was deciding which house to buy.

Memo


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Absolutely right! Orientation of a home is extremely important and should definitely be the first consideration in making a choice of a lot, a home to be built or even a rental. Your comfort is important. So few expats realize this, as they have grown up with a thermostat on the wall.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

In the building of this adobe home we are basically off the grid except for city water,it will have recycled old doors and window shutters with double paned glass, solar and wind power (and a backup generator), a well which is tested every 30 days for purity as it is used for organic crops. I may add a fire place if needed...I also figured the extra cost of adobe over brick would almost even out when 1 adobe is about the same mass of 4 or 5 bricks....


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks folks! Orientation was a big concern and the house will be built with north/south orientation with the majority of windows facing south. The line of the long south wall will be aligned with true north to parallel the sun's course. All of the public rooms (kitchen, living, dining) will have south windows plus my studio where I work all day. We spend almost no time in the bedrooms except sleeping so I am least concerned about those. An extra down comforter keeps one warm at night. We'll also have a masonry heater which we can use to take the chill off at night in the bedroom area.


TundraGreen - Are the interior walls of your house adobe as well? Perhaps I can use adobe for the exterior and brick for interior.

It is sounding like no one used an architect to build. The albaniles I talked with work weekly, $2000 for the Maestro and $1200 for each assistant which sounds quite reasonable. I'm going this week to see some of their finished work as I've only seen 2 of their works in progress so far.

Here in Guanajuato no one seems to use a builder. It's either you use an architect as a "builder" -- and they charge $1500 a week or want a contract like the one we talked with -- or work directly with the albaniles which is sounding more and more like the way to go.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Chicois8, I hadn't seen your reply when I made my last post. Same question - are you using adobe only for the exterior?

We have no city water or sewer (electricity yes) so we will be harvesting rainwater and buying pipas (pumped in water from tank trucks) when necessary during dry season. For sewage we will be using a micro-treatment plant which then returns the treated water to a separate cistern for exterior use and possibly for toilet flushing. No septic field is allowed because we are on the side of a steep rocky incline and all the sewage would seep into our downhill neighbor's property... an understandable restriction.

If you decide to go with a fireplace in your house, I highly recommend you look at masonry heaters as an alternative. They lose only 5-10 percent of the heat produced whereas a normal fireplace loses almost 85 percent up the chimney. They are also cheaper to operate as they burn very little wood and the stored heat from one 10 minute fire lasts 18+ hours.

Good luck!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

circle110 said:


> TundraGreen - Are the interior walls of your house adobe as well? Perhaps I can use adobe for the exterior and brick for interior.


The short answer is yes. The longer answer follows. It is an old (maybe 1880s) house in the city. All of the original part of the house is adobe. There are three bedrooms that were added later. The construction on them is either concrete, concrete block or brick. I am not sure because the walls are plastered and I can't see the construction. But the walls are thinner. All the original walls are half meter thick adobe both exterior and interior. There are three patios and almost all of the rooms are on the south side of the patios. After writing my original comment above, I realized that the orientation probably has an even bigger effect than the adobe, because the new rooms are very comfortable as well. The house next door to mine is a mirror image and probably was built at the same time by the same builder. But its orientation is exactly the opposite and exactly wrong. In any event the interior walls are also adobe and contribute as a place to store heat but probably not as much as those that are directly exposed to the sun.

As a side comment, I only recently realized that adobe is actually not a good insulator. It advantage is its heat capacity. If you think about it, if it were a good insulator it could not store heat because none would conduct into the adobe. In any event one big advantage of adobe is that it will soak up heat when the air is warm and release it when the air is cool. So it has the effect of smoothing out the highs and lows. In many parts of Mexico this is all you need since the average daily temperature is quite comfortable. 

As a side comment, I know some people construct false walls in front of the adobe to avoid the problem of the moisture in adobe that ruins the paint job about a meter above the floor. However, doing this has the disadvantage of interfering with the adobe's ability to act as a heat source/sink since it isolates the adobe from the air.

I know you already understand this Circle110, but I thought I would include the longer discussion for others who may not have thought about it much.

Memo


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

circle110 said:


> If you decide to go with a fireplace in your house, I highly recommend you look at masonry heaters as an alternative. They lose only 5-10 percent of the heat produced whereas a normal fireplace loses almost 85 percent up the chimney. They are also cheaper to operate as they burn very little wood and the stored heat from one 10 minute fire lasts 18+ hours.


Agreed on nixing the fireplace. There must be a trade off between masonry and cast iron for stoves. The masonry will indeed store heat for a long time but the flip side is that it will take awhile before it starts releasing heat into the room. Whereas a cast iron stove will produce immediate warmth, but also stop producing heat the minute the fire burns out. Old apartments in Berlin, where my daughter lives all had masonry stoves in one corner. I have fond memories of hauling coal up from the cellar to feed the stove when visiting her in the winter. She now has a weekend cottage outside the city that they remodeled and there they use a cast iron stove. He, her partner, is an eco-freak (no slur intended) and I am sure their stove is very tree friendly. He makes his living protecting trees for the city of Berlin.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I did not see a question for me,I did see that question for Tundra....

Yes my inside walls will be adobe also,non bearing walls may be a smaller size adobe brick,for extra room...

I also will have rain catchment for emergencies and a 12 volt composting toilet...
The fireplace would not have a chimney, it would be sealed and I would probably use a gas log the burns all of the gas,made for ventless fireplaces....
There is little wood where I am and I do not want to cut the mesquite trees around the property...




circle110 said:


> ]Chicois8, I hadn't seen your reply when I made my last post. Same question - are you using adobe only for the exterior?
> 
> We have no city water or sewer (electricity yes) so we will be harvesting rainwater and buying pipas (pumped in water from tank trucks) when necessary during dry season. For sewage we will be using a micro-treatment plant which then returns the treated water to a separate cistern for exterior use and possibly for toilet flushing. No septic field is allowed because we are on the side of a steep rocky incline and all the sewage would seep into our downhill neighbor's property... an understandable restriction.
> 
> ...


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

chicois8 - Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just saying that your post came in while I was writing my post so I hadn't read it yet. I was just asking you the same question as I did to TundraGreen, not saying that I had asked you previously and you didn't answer. Thanks again for the information.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

What am I missing here? We moved to Mexico in 2001 and bought a home in Ajijic, Jalisco in which we invested some money in renovation over the years getting more or less our money´s worth but paying more than we should have for sometimes substandard work. Then, in 2005, we bought a house that was basically a ruin in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas in the Mexican outback and renovated that ruin into a practically new house using a local San Cristóbal architect and his designated maestro and the quality of the work was outstanding. Now, four years later, we could not be more pleased with the quality of the work in Chiapas while the work we received at Lakeside is at best acceptable. In poverty stricken Chiapas we received splendid workmanship while at Lake Chapala the work we received was only acceptable. Go figure.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

I am not understanding what these symbols stand for,please explain: money´s worth,San Cristóbal, Cristóbal...........

Has the Dawg been in the catnip????


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

No catnip. For some reason, this system isn't accepting latin accent and diacritical marks; instead, substituting some codes for each accented letter, which make for very confusing reading.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

chicois8 said:


> I am not understanding what these symbols stand for,please explain: money´s worth,San Cristóbal, Cristóbal...........
> 
> Has the Dawg been in the catnip????


For reasons that escape me, when I use apostrophes using this program , I get these odd symbols. Perhaps it is Satan´s way of warning me of his/her impending management of my eternal life as fortold by my Aunt Dorothy back in 1954.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> What am I missing here? We moved to Mexico in 2001 and bought a home in Ajijic, Jalisco in which we invested some money in renovation over the years getting more or less our money's worth but paying more than we should have for sometimes substandard work. Then, in 2005, we bought a house that was basically a ruin in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas in the Mexican outback and renovated that ruin into a practically new house using a local San Cristóbal architect and his designated maestro and the quality of the work was outstanding. Now, four years later, we could not be more pleased with the quality of the work in Chiapas while the work we received at Lakeside is at best acceptable. In poverty stricken Chiapas we received splendid workmanship while at Lake Chapala the work we received was only acceptable. Go figure.


It doesn't surprise me that the labor is cheaper in Chiapas than in Ajijic. As far as the quality of workmanship goes, all it tells me is that you found somebody good in Chiapas and didn't in Ajijic. Either case can happen anywhere.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

TundraGreen said:


> It doesn't surprise me that the labor is cheaper in Chiapas than in Ajijic. As far as the quality of workmanship goes, all it tells me is that you found somebody good in Chiapas and didn't in Ajijic. Either case can happen anywhere.


Correcto, TG:

In Jalisco we were new to the country while in Chiapas we were experienced in dealing with the Mexican culture and were not burdened with the "contractors" plaguing Lake Chapala and screwing over the norteanos just arrived and ripe for picking for any harvester with an elementary command of English. Odd, is it not, that in Chiapas,where there are virtually no English speaking foreigners engaging in construction projects, one is less likely to run into thieves posing as contractors sucking up money like fies to flypaper. I guess fishermen fish where the fish are easily fished. That is not to say that suckers are not readily spotted and exploited in Chiapas; just that we were not among them.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> Correcto, TG:
> 
> In Jalisco we were new to the country while in Chiapas we were experienced in dealing with the Mexican culture and were not burdened with the "contractors" plaguing Lake Chapala and screwing over the norteanos just arrived and ripe for picking for any harvester with an elementary command of English. Odd, is it not, that in Chiapas,where there are virtually no English speaking foreigners engaging in construction projects, one is less likely to run into thieves posing as contractors sucking up money like fies to flypaper. I guess fishermen fish where the fish are easily fished. That is not to say that suckers are not readily spotted and exploited in Chiapas; just that we were not among them.


Good point.


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## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

I have built 3 houses with "maestros" in my area, and would suggest you hire a professional contractor to ramrod any major construction, unless you speak Spanish, understand rudimentary construction and are prepared to attend to your maestro full time.

Local construction costs are remarkably less than mentioned in previous posts.
Current local rates are 1200 to 1500 for the maestro, 800 -1000 for a "segunda cucharra (assistant maestro) and 650 -750 for helpers. If you want to build fast, use two or more maestros. They usually work 5 1/2 days a week, and if you do not sign them up for the equivalent of social security, you may be heftily fined.

Maestros usually do no do subcontractor work. So you need to handle permits, electrical, plumbing, ironwork, carpentry, etc. on your own. To be cost effective, you need to purchase all construction supplies yourself. 

Scheduling interactive subcontractors is difficult and may result in wasted time and other problems. Expect the work to take twice as long as projected.

If you plan to use a pro, begin with an architect, only for a complete set of blueprints, then shop the plans with other builders. The differences will be enormous, and your choice will have to be determined not just by price but recommendations from previous projects.
Good luck.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Thanks dongringo, that's great feedback.

I speak fluent Spanish so that is not a problem and I also understand rudimentary construction but that last point of attending to the maestro full-time is an issue for me. I'm not sure I want to spend my days as a project manager.

As for costs, all my friends and contacts here are local, regular Mexican folks (and we've talked to 10-15 people who have built their homes here) and that's the prices they paid for their albaniles - give or take a few pesos per week depending on which group of albaniles. So it isn't a "rip off the ******" price. Mexico is very regional and the labor costs in Catemaco are apparently cheaper than here in Guanajuato.

Yes, the organizing/scheduling of subcontractors is one of the headaches I'd love to avoid and a builder would help me immensely with that. However, I have yet to find a builder here in Guanajuato. It appears that architects play that role here since no one we have talked to has even heard of a builder. When I ask about builders, they just ask me if I mean architects or maestros.

Here in Gto. centro one must use an architect for a plan. The city requires the seal of a licensed architect before giving a building permit. Since the city center is a World Heritage Site they are fairly strict. Our property is on the fringes but still technically is part of the centro so all regulations apply. We even have to get our exterior paint colors approved before painting!

I think I'll continue to ask around about a builder... at least in the sense of a project coordinator. If not, then I go it alone. I spent my work life managing complex implementation projects so, even though they weren't in the construction field, they gave me an understanding of how to handle large projects. It's just that I know how much hassle is involved - more so here because it's not in my field!

BTW - the forum software is now substituting the HTML escape characters for the diacritical markings and that's why we're seeing those odd "codes". It is a hacker protection device since hackers use non-standard ASCII characters to break the forum programming and achieve their nasty ends. This version of the forum software went a little overboard, blocking Spanish diacritical markings and a future upgrade will no doubt fix the problem.


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

We are in the state of Guanajuato but in Mineral de Pozos about 1.5 hrs from Guanjuato city.
We have built twice, a 2BR/2BA casita and a two room studio for my wife.
For the 1st, my wife painter/designer did the layout and plans but based on US model, We hired an architect to redo the plans and then to build the house. We decided to go with all adobe where they set up adobe "factory" on site with a two block mold. This worked very well and looked great with caliche chinking. We had considerable concern about wear as we get some pretty hard rain and wind. Architect said that would be fine with annual sealant and that workers would be offended if we covered up their chinking. We reluctantly agreed and just used stucco as "decoration" to simulate the ruins of which Pozos has many.
Adobe is great in holding both the heat and cool so very much evens out the temperature but not covering with full stucco a mistake as even with annual sealant, their was noticeable wear so we ended up going back and covering and that a real mess as well as expensive. I would do adobe but be sure that protected. It is somewhat more expensive as original quote had one wall adobe and went up about 5% on 1800 sq ft for total adobe but that included an osite "chinker". We were told by a number of folk that to get a very nice place with full adobe that would come in at about $50/sq ft but that if we really considered all the ancillary costs like cisterns, walls, gates, social security, etc. that would be more like $75/sq ft. 
We weren't surprised that initial quote therefore almost spot on $50/sq. ft. but were surprised by the form of the quote that had three pieces-included, not included but required and not included but not required. The not included but required included water system as many options including basic pump/tanaca to full pressure pump with purifier/softener, electrical connection as we were about 300 meters from a line and I ended up buying/installing 3 poles and a transformer that CFE will eventually take over and maintain, large appliances such as stove, refrigerator, washer & dryer and some more. The not included and not required included social security(architect sort of shrugged when I said surprised that not included so we quickly moved to required), walkways, walls(including some terracing in our case, gates(2 car gates), some 175m of stacked caliche wall, 500m of barb wire, fountain, upgrade over allowance for tile, bathroom fixtures, light fixtures, etc. Sure enough when all done just about $75/sq ft for move in complete.
For the studio, we used an architect upfront to work with my wife as we were converting an adobe/caliche ruin into a usable studio where orientation and lighting even more important. In this case, we paid for the plans/permits upfront and did a cost plus deal with the architect to manage.He estimated on Wednesday how much cash I would need on Friday. We went through all the bills Friday and then he paid the workers. Each month we paid him 20% of previous months bills to manage including acquiring all the materials and tools. By the way, we ended up with a lot of tools most of which I then gave to the workers.This came it at well under $50/sq ft but he could piggy back on a lot from casita on adjacent property. Also, only real change is that we had planned more adobe/stucco with again an onsite adobe factory(this time to match the 100+ old adobe blocks and ended up with a lot more caliche when we saw how well that they did matching the old stone with great workmanship. I liked this approach much better as really understood the costs.
This brings up critical point, you really must be there. The workers are great and workmanship & pride are wonderful but if you aren't there and a question, they will decide and less than 50/50 that will be what you want. This includes orientation that they changed(luckily we caught) as they thought should be parallel to the road, location and direction of stairway as "L" stairway harder, and in our case would need rail, placement of switches and light fixtures where my wife pretty specific but they thought differently (a lot of chiseling to correct), number of light fixtures as adobe is great but tends to be dark and "why would anyone want more than one light a room", etc.
People in Pozos have tried two other options with one self managed(really need some expertise and a great foreman) and the other using an engineer versus an architect. In the latter, still need get plans drawn/approved but engineer managed has come in a lot cheaper and people satisfied.
Sorry for length of note but hope it helps.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I think the accent problem has been fixed, so we can write Querétero and año again.


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