# is a child a US citizen if US mother lives in US only after child's birth?



## mchjlh (Jun 6, 2013)

Another thread (about baby Archie) got me wondering. The poster of that item linked to a news article that included this: "According to the US Department of State, in the case of the royal baby, he or she will acquire US citizenship because s/he was born in wedlock abroad to an American citizen who has lived in the US for a period of five years, at least two of which were after the age of 14."

My question is: does my own grandchild have US citizenship? 

The background: My daughter, born in Canada, had to be registered by us shortly after her birth to have US citizenship, and we did that. For over 30 years, she never lived in the US at all. Marriage, work and travel took her to New Zealand, where she gave birth to our grandchild. 

When born, the child had no automatic US status, since our daughter had never lived in the US. Five years ago our daughter moved with her husband to California for his job, and they have now lived there continuously for those five years.

I am wondering if now - retroactively? - our grandchild would be considered a US citizen. I am guessing the answer is "no" but I thought I'd post this to see if anyone has an opinion. Thanks.


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

> The background: My daughter, born in Canada, had to be registered by us shortly after her birth to have US citizenship, and we did that. For over 30 years, she never lived in the US at all. Marriage, work and travel took her to New Zealand, where she gave birth to our grandchild.
> [..]
> When born, the child had no automatic US status, since our daughter had never lived in the US. Five years ago our daughter moved with her husband to California for his job, and they have now lived there continuously for those five years.
> 
> I am wondering if now - retroactively? - our grandchild would be considered a US citizen. I am guessing the answer is "no" but I thought I'd post this to see if anyone has an opinion. Thanks.


I agree with you - the answer is "no". Your grandchild wouldn't be able to meet the requirements to prove entitlement to US citizenship, because her mother (your daughter) didn't live in the US before the age of 14.

No doubt the grandchild could easily acquire US citizenship if she wants it; or if she wants to prove she _isn't_ a US citizen, she can just apply for a US passport and get refused. The refusal can be shown as proof that she is not entitled to US citizenship.

Edit: in the light of Bevdeforges's post, I hereby eat my words. 

(Though I speculate that the grandchild could easily get refused, if she wants to prove non-US-citizenship, by being unable to document a grandparent's US residence before the age of 14. )


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

As far as I know the answer is "no" - BUT there is some sort of law that was put in place in the 1990s that may allow a US grandparent to transmit US nationality.

Take a look at this: https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter-5 and drop down to paragraph C3. 

You'll have to see if it fits your circumstances, but I know of at least one grandmother who has transmitted US nationality in this way. (And who was active in lobbying for the passage of this particular law.)


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

My high-level view...

If the child is living in the US with some sort of legal status for five years now, with a US citizen parent, then presumably they could acquire US citizenship through naturalization. 

But I assume it's easier and cheaper to have an existing citizenship recognized. So have your daughter explore the grandparent route, or whether her five years' residence now counts for anything. This might require a lawyer's assistance in dealing with the authorities.

If the family, including children, expects to remain in the US indefinitely, the child should obtain citizenship (if nothing else to protect against malicious deportation at some point in the future); if however the family has plans to leave again then sparing the child US citizenship might be a wise decision, though of course they will have no trouble avoiding FATCA reporting and US taxation in future given they already have a non-US birthplace and passport


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

If I understand correctly, it sounds as if the child at present has never been recognized as a US citizen. If the child is indeed a child, it would seem advisable to allow his/her non-US-citizen status to stand, until s/he's grown up and can decide what s/he wants to do. A packet of documentation could be prepared in case s/he wants to claim US citizenship as an adult.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

underation said:


> If I understand correctly, it sounds as if the child at present has never been recognized as a US citizen. If the child is indeed a child, it would seem advisable to allow his/her non-US-citizen status to stand, until s/he's grown up and can decide what s/he wants to do. A packet of documentation could be prepared in case s/he wants to claim US citizenship as an adult.


Child is currently a US resident; if that were to continue permanently, acquiring US citizenship one way or another is a sensible course of action.


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

Nononymous said:


> Child is currently a US resident; if that were to continue permanently, acquiring US citizenship one way or another is a sensible course of action.


My apologies, I should have said:



> If I understand correctly, it sounds as if the grandchild at present has never been recognized as a US citizen. If the grandchild is indeed a child, it would seem advisable to allow his/her non-US-citizen status to stand, until s/he's grown up and can decide what s/he wants to do. A packet of documentation could be prepared in case s/he wants to claim US citizenship as an adult.


Regardless of where the individual (grandchild of the poster) is currently living, it's ultimately their decision whether to claim or apply to claim US citizenship. If they're a child, and the citizenship is prematurely "got" for them, it'll cost them $2350 to be free of it, should that be their eventual choice.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

That is indeed a wise course of action - set everything up so that the citizenship can be documented or "claimed" if it's something the child wishes to do as an adult, but do not impose the citizenship before age 18 - it should be the child's decision.

If the child plans to spend long periods of time in the US, citizenship is probably advantageous. If they plan to live outside the US, it's generally a burden.


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## mchjlh (Jun 6, 2013)

underation said:


> If I understand correctly, it sounds as if the child at present has never been recognized as a US citizen. If the child is indeed a child, it would seem advisable to allow his/her non-US-citizen status to stand, until s/he's grown up and can decide what s/he wants to do. A packet of documentation could be prepared in case s/he wants to claim US citizenship as an adult.


Our grandchild is currently a Canadian citizen only. Their residence in the US is likely temporary, with the family's return to Canada imminent. 

Can you comment on what might go into a "packet of documentation" that we, or our daughter, might prepare? We, the grandparents, both came to Canada from the US in the early 70's as students, and never left. It makes sense that our grandchild might want at age 18 to make the decision to become a US citizen. What would we need to assemble and have ready to assist in that?


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

mchjlh said:


> Our grandchild is currently a Canadian citizen only. Their residence in the US is likely temporary, with the family's return to Canada imminent.
> 
> Can you comment on what might go into a "packet of documentation" that we, or our daughter, might prepare? We, the grandparents, both came to Canada from the US in the early 70's as students, and never left. It makes sense that our grandchild might want at age 18 to make the decision to become a US citizen. What would we need to assemble and have ready to assist in that?



If I were preparing such a packet (and I might, just in case, now that I know about the grandparent route), I would include:

* a copy of my US birth certificate
* my SSN
* an account of when I left the US (e.g. I moved to the UK in yyyy; I was granted UK leave to remain in yyyy, etc.) 
* copies of my children's consular "birth of US citizen abroad" certificate thingies - can't remember what it's called
* a copy of my own CLN (to prove that when my children were born I was a US citizen able to transmit US citizenship, and only lost my US nationality afterwards)
* a copy of official information about the grandparent route (e.g., the link provided above by Bevdeforges), in case the Consular Officer never heard of it

I would give a packet to each of my children, to pass to their own children (my grandchildren) at age 18, and they can use it or not, as they wish.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

You might want something showing that the child's parents left the US before accumulating the necessary residence time. Things like high school records (transcripts, diplomas, etc.) showing that they attended high school outside the US, other family documents showing non-US residence during the years after Mom or Dad turned 14. (Just to establish why the child did not get citizenship through the US parent.)

Some US expat groups are very involved in this sort of thing. If you or your daughter can locate a nearly FAWCO club, they may be able to provide more information. https://www.fawco.org/


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

Bevdeforges said:


> You might want something showing that the child's parents left the US before accumulating the necessary residence time. Things like high school records (transcripts, diplomas, etc.) showing that they attended high school outside the US, other family documents showing non-US residence during the years after Mom or Dad turned 14. (Just to establish why the child did not get citizenship through the US parent.)


Wouldn't the grandparent route only become available after the parent has either died or has tried - and failed - to pass on citizenship herself? As I understand it, the onus is on the parent to prove they _were_ resident in the US - not to prove that they weren't. 

And - rats - I see the grandparent route is not available for my own grandchildren, because I'd have to still be a US citizen. Never mind - probably they'll never want US citizenship.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

You can tell that I live in France, because here it always pays to have a few "extra" documents readily available to prove things involved in any application. 

The other thing I'd just mention is that, given the rather uncomfortable politics in the US at the moment, it might be wise to get a child US nationality if the family intends on remaining in the US for an extended period of time. The OP here mentioned that they are probably going to be returning to Canada soon, so no problem. But for those families planning on staying for the long term, it may be something to consider.


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

Yes, worth considering. And it looks very easy, if I understand that USCIS page correctly:



> D. Temporary Presence by Lawful Admission and Status in United States
> 
> 1. Temporary Presence and Status Requirements
> 
> ...


This would also work presumably for the non-USC adult child of a US citizen: visit the US, take oath, go home, apply for passport. If so, all a packet needs to contain is proof of the parent's US citizenship (the Consular birth abroad thingy)


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

underation said:


> This would also work presumably for the non-USC adult child of a US citizen: visit the US, take oath, go home, apply for passport. If so, all a packet needs to contain is proof of the parent's US citizenship (the Consular birth abroad thingy)


No - the relevant page in the manual says the child must be under 18.

[USC04] 8 USC 1433: Children born and residing outside the United States; conditions for acquiring certificate of citizenship


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

It does seem quite wrong that a child is allowed to swear an oath turning it into a US citizen, with all that that entails in the way of onerous lifelong obligations as well as benefits; yet is *not* allowed to swear an oath which would turn it into a non-US-citizen, removing those same obligations and benefits.

Maybe someone will eventually challenge this inconsistency.


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## Moulard (Feb 3, 2017)

underation said:


> Maybe someone will eventually challenge this inconsistency.


Challenging all of the legislative inconsistencies would take longer than there has been a legislative chamber... 

Sometimes I wonder whether the quickest way to fix it would be via revolution. I mean hey... its worked in the past.


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## underation (Oct 25, 2018)

Moulard said:


> Challenging all of the legislative inconsistencies would take longer than there has been a legislative chamber...


That's their problem, from my point of view.

Personally I would just like to see the US State Department obliged to respect the wishes of a citizen who wants to stop being a citizen, instead of treating them as if they have fewer rights than a six-year-old non-citizen.



> Sometimes I wonder whether the quickest way to fix it would be via revolution. I mean hey... its worked in the past.


In America? I must have dozed off and missed that episode.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Unfortunately, the US appears to have already suffered through something of a "revolution" (or perhaps more of a "coup d'etat") but things are going the wrong direction (for me, anyhow). 

But to be fair, it's not really the State Department's doing that makes renunciation such a mess - those fees are imposed by legislation (and the fact of starving the State Department for funding for years, requiring them to raise their own funds by charging for services). Of course that's now a moot point, seeing that there is now a lap-dog appointed as Secretary of State who will do whatever suits the Orange One's fancy of the moment. 

But that's another argument for another time. There are, as they say, bigger fish to fry at the moment.


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