# Citizenship for Sephardic Jews



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Does anyone have any experience with this? It's hard to get good information on this as it's still a relatively new situation. Any information would be appreciated.

My wife's (from Peru) family has a long tradition that one of their relatives was driven out of Spain, and I understand that her surname (Nunez) was very common with Sephardim, but I don't know how we could build a case beyond that - 500 years is a long time.

Regards,
Kevin


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this? It's hard to get good information on this as it's still a relatively new situation. Any information would be appreciated. My wife's (from Peru) family has a long tradition that one of their relatives was driven out of Spain, and I understand that her surname (Nunez) was very common with Sephardim, but I don't know how we could build a case beyond that - 500 years is a long time. Regards, Kevin


 Is your wife in Jaca with the five kids right now? If so, I met her. I suggest getting an attorney to help you guys. Yep, when I saw San Francisco I knew it was you guys.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Elyles said:


> Is your wife in Jaca with the five kids right now? If so, I met her last week. I'm the one who gave her the info for this site. I suggest getting an attorney to help you guys. Yep, when I saw San Francisco I knew it was you guys. Your kids are a trip. Love Johnathan, he is full of questions. Would love to see you guys again if possible. Your wife has my local contact info and you are staying very near us.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

This is the info from the govt Concesión de la nacionalidad a serfadíes originarios de España - Trámites y gestiones personales - Ministerio de Justicia

It looks as if she'd have to be legally resident here before she can apply for citizenship


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

You will get a lot of good advice on here. I know nothing about this but your wife may qualify for citizenship through her surname. There are some international attorneys on here that can refer you guys to a good Spanish attorney.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> It looks as if she'd have to be legally resident here before she can apply for citizenship


Are you sure?



> _¿Quién puede solicitarlo/presentarlo? _Todos aquellos sefardíes que prueben dicha condición y una especial vinculación con España, _aun cuando no tengan residencia legal en nuestro país_, sin perjuicio de las vías generales para obtener la nacionalidad (nacionalidad por residencia, etc.), a las que también pueden optar.


I notice that applicants have to be proficient in Spanish, but coming from Peru I guess that won't be a problem in this case.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> 
> 
> I notice that applicants have to be proficient in Spanish, but coming from Peru I guess that won't be a problem in this case.


yes, it's contradictory - because in the list of paperwork they have to submit is proof of residence!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Here's an article briefly summarising the new law:

Welcome home, 500 years later: Spain offers citizenship to Sephardic Jews - LA Times

Here's what's needed on the application:

http://www.rhodesjewishmuseum.org/w...or-Spanish-Citizenship-for-Sephardic-Jews.pdf

According to that article, you have the option of claiming citizenship through 2 years residence in Spain, but you don't have to be living here. Also, according to the previous article, you don't have to relinquish your nationality in order to gain Spanish nationality.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

AllHeart said:


> Here's an article briefly summarising the new law:
> 
> Welcome home, 500 years later: Spain offers citizenship to Sephardic Jews - LA Times
> 
> ...



Que?

So what does residence mean then?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Que?
> 
> So what does residence mean then?


Residency = living here. It says you can apply through residency (living here), but you don't have to apply through residency. Claro?


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Then, can one gain residency just simply by submitting an application and living here or must they qualify for residency first through other means?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

You don't have to live here at all to get this citizenship - either before or after the application for citizenship. Here's a quote from the first linked article:

_"There is also no saying how many people who succeed in acquiring Spanish citizenship would actually move to Spain or just keep a Spanish passport on the side, either out of sentimental reasons, for convenience in traveling around Europe or as a backup in case things in their current home countries go bad."_


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Here is the info where you can apply for citizenship as a Shephardic Jew (sefardi) after 2 years residency:

"Dos años: para los nacionales de países iberoamericanos, Andorra, Filipinas, Guinea Ecuatorial, Portugal o personas de origen sefardí."

From here: Nacionalidad por residencia - Trámites y gestiones personales - Ministerio de Justicia


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok, but if one lives here do they need the normal stuff to do so as an extranjero or, can they just plop down here, get a DNI, etc simply by saying they are applying for citizenship?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

You can't get a DNI until you have citizenship, so, yes, they'd be extranjeros until their citizenship. Each country has different rules as to how to become a resident in Spain, and you'd just have to follow those rules.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

For example, for Canadians, we can't stay in Spain for more than 90 days to live, work or study without a visa:

Spain: Entry, Residence and Work Requirements


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## ExpatWannabee (Jul 6, 2011)

AllHeart said:


> For example, for Canadians, we can't stay in Spain for more than 90 days to live, work or study without a visa:
> 
> Spain: Entry, Residence and Work Requirements


Or so the theory goes. I was here for 10 months before applying for residency in Valencia. They didn't seem to care and there was no problem getting residency.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

ExpatWannabee said:


> Or so the theory goes. I was here for 10 months before applying for residency in Valencia. They didn't seem to care and there was no problem getting residency.


 Man, when I tried for residency the first time in Huesca, the officials were very concerned that I had been here less than 90 days. Waiting 9 months would have been too much of a chance for anyone to take there.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

ExpatWannabee said:


> Or so the theory goes. I was here for 10 months before applying for residency in Valencia. They didn't seem to care and there was no problem getting residency.


That's weird that you were allowed to stay for 10 months without a visa you're saying?

Also, it says you have to apply for residency while in Canada - not Spain.
_
"It is not possible for a non-EU national to enter Spain as a visitor and change his/her status to that of an employee, student or resident from within Spain. Applications for visas must be made in Canada to the Spanish consulate with jurisdiction over one's place of residence."_

From here: Spain: Entry, Residence and Work Requirements

The Spanish Consulate was very clear with me that without Spanish citizenship or visa I could only stay in Spain as a Canadian for three months, and their site shows the list of documents required to enter Spain:

Pages - Entry Requirements


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## ExpatWannabee (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, this is Spain. I've never seen a country with a bigger discrepancy between "what is supposed to be" and "what actually is". It really seems to boil down to what kind of mood the person behind the desk is in. Spanish consulates in Canada are not the most informed in the world. They know about Spanish regulations, but are essentially clueless about matters in the autonomous regions like Valencia. I wrote them about several issues and their answers usually boiled down to "we have no idea". I'm not suggesting people should ignore the 90 requirement (in theory) I'm just relating my experience: I applied after 10 months and about a month later I had a five-year residencia in my pocket.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

ExpatWannabee said:


> Well, this is Spain. I've never seen a country with a bigger discrepancy between "what is supposed to be" and "what actually is". It really seems to boil down to what kind of mood the person behind the desk is in. Spanish consulates in Canada are not the most informed in the world. They know about Spanish regulations, but are essentially clueless about matters in the autonomous regions like Valencia. I wrote them about several issues and their answers usually boiled down to "we have no idea". I'm not suggesting people should ignore the 90 requirement (in theory) I'm just relating my experience: I applied after 10 months and about a month later I had a five-year residencia in my pocket.



Wow, that's wonderful news that you got the residency for five years. Congratulations! :thumb:

My experience with the consulate in Toronto and the embassy in Ottawa was very different from yours. They did everything by the book, to the letter, and they were very knowledgeable about every step.


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## dmret (Mar 12, 2013)

This may or may not help you. I saw the hearing care people in Boots, Canterbury a few days ago. The latest Phonak aids ( for both ears ) model 'Venture' cost, with a discount, about £3,600.these, I was told, were the latest design. I tried them in a busy store,and they were good.
If you travel periodically back to the UK then all maintenance is available. I've been wearing phonak for some 15 years.
It was interesting to read your experiences because I thought I would look into this in Spain.
Having now arrived in El Campello our adventure has begun.
Hope this has given you some help.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Dmret, did you mean to put your post in this thread about hearing aids?

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/963834-hearing-aids.html


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## dmret (Mar 12, 2013)

Nope, my mistake. It was meant for Chrisandvicky. Must go to specsavers.I'll get the hang of this one day.
Thanks.


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## ExpatWannabee (Jul 6, 2011)

AllHeart said:


> Wow, that's wonderful news that you got the residency for five years. Congratulations! :thumb:
> 
> My experience with the consulate in Toronto and the embassy in Ottawa was very different from yours. They did everything by the book, to the letter, and they were very knowledgeable about every step.


Thanks for your congrats! I left for Spain about 2.5 years ago, so maybe they improved the quality of the staff in the Toronto office. I never had any dealings with the Ottawa office.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

They hired an extra employee around that time to answer the phones and help people in the waiting room. He made all the difference! 

I always had problems getting info because my Spanish wasn't very good at that time, and no one (other than the consulate general himself, who I only met once) was fluent in English. So what I learned to do if I had complicated questions was to get one of my South American friends to contact them for me. That made all the difference.

Another thing I was thinking is that you were asking for different info than me (me re citizenship), so perhaps you dealt with different people than I did, and therefore had a different experience?


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## lorort (Dec 24, 2015)

It would be nice if one could get Spanish citizenship based on DNA (20%). 12% of my DNA is Great Britain and 6% Ireland who knows I might have some distant cousins on this forum haha.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

lorort said:


> It would be nice if one could get Spanish citizenship based on DNA (20%). 12% of my DNA is Great Britain and 6% Ireland who knows I might have some distant cousins on this forum haha.


Yes, DNA is exactly what citizenship boils down to, including for Sephardic Jews. My dad was born in Spain. He was one of six kids, who all married and had kids. I had four aunts still living when I got here (one unfortunately died two weeks ago). I have 13 first cousins, who all got married and had kids (but for one), and some of those kids have kids. So the family here in Spain is HUGE! Almost everyone lives in and around Malaga. I also hang out with one of the first cousins of my dad and her family - my second aunt, uncle and cousins - who also live in Malaga. I grew up with only my parents and siblings in Canada, and it was always a dream to have lots of relatives in my life. Just another dream come true in Spain!


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## lorort (Dec 24, 2015)

I think it becomes harder to find family connections when my ancestors have been living in the U.S. for over 300 years. I wish I could track down some family in Europe but my DNA is 1/5 this and 1/5 that. At least you are 50% because of father easier to find relatives.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

lorort said:


> I think it becomes harder to find family connections when my ancestors have been living in the U.S. for over 300 years. I wish I could track down some family in Europe but my DNA is 1/5 this and 1/5 that. At least you are 50% because of father easier to find relatives.


Over 300 years?! Well, you're in the same league as the Sephardic Spaniards then.  There are people all over the world finding their connections through studying their genealogy. One of my first cousins is totally into that for our family. Perhaps you can find a family member who's already done some leg work that you can build on?

One of my best friends back in Canada has family members studying their genealogy, and they traced their roots back to the French Voyageurs who invaded Canada 500 years ago. Now they're looking into their roots in France. It means a lot to them.

My parents gave up my Spanish citizenship when I became a Canadian citizen at the age of 14, and the next year they sent me alone to Spain to spend with family for 10 weeks over the summer. I had already fallen in love with Spain before that trip, but was head over heels after that trip. So since I was 14, I contemplated getting my citizenship back and maybe even living in Spain one day. When I started the process of getting it back, my thinking was just to have it but not do anything with it, but maybe one day move here. But by the time I got it, I was good and ready to move here. 

My family in Canada was never family oriented, but I always was, so I never fit in with them in that respect. My family here in Spain is totally family oriented, so I really fit in. They're also really down to earth, like I am. My mother is Swedish. My parents never told me much about my family in Sweden or Spain, but I'm getting lots of stories here and it's wonderful to get to know my roots.

Anyway, I'm just saying that roots mean a lot to some people, and not a lot to others. If it means a lot to you, then look for your roots.


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## GiladYAvne (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi guys, the law changed in October 2015 for Spain and March 2015 for Portugal. 

According to the "new" Sephardic law, one no longer have to live in Spain or Portugal for acquiring a citizenship. The first guy said his wife's maiden name was Nunez, well, it sounds more Portuguese to me, so you might want to consider (if still relevant) applying for a Portuguese citizenship instead. The process is much easier and you don't need a lawyer. But only your wife can apply (and any children over 18 years that you have), you would have to wait until she is approved and then apply as her husband (if you are married for more the 3 years), but your process will be much more complicated the hers. 

Step 1 - your wife should contact the Jewish communities of Oporto or Lisboa for their approval, and only then she can apply at the embassy in Peru. I'm not sure, but even though you don't have to be Jewish today to apply, you need to have Jewish roots in recent generations and not only 500 years ago, thus to show you connection to your Sephardic heritage (for example, by speaking "Ladino", which is the Judeo-Espanol). Here in Turkey many people I know applied. It takes time (a year or so), but chances are good.

Regards,
Gilad


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

As a matter of interest do Palestinians displaced for decades in their own homeland by the criminal regime in Tel Aviv get the same immigration rights in Spain as Sephardic Jews?


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## GiladYAvne (Aug 16, 2016)

Rabbitcat said:


> As a matter of interest do Palestinians displaced for decades in their own homeland by the criminal regime in Tel Aviv get the same immigration rights in Spain as Sephardic Jews?


Hi Rabbitcat. No, I don't think so. The law is for Sephardic Jews. Technically, you're right, Muslims were also persecuted by the Spanish inquisition and should be eligible to apply too. This law, to me, is how the Sapnish and Portuguese governments trying to make an amendment with Israel.


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## Mike Zwing (Aug 5, 2021)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this? It's hard to get good information on this as it's still a relatively new situation. Any information would be appreciated.
> 
> My wife's (from Peru) family has a long tradition that one of their relatives was driven out of Spain, and I understand that her surname (Nunez) was very common with Sephardim, but I don't know how we could build a case beyond that - 500 years is a long time.


Beware, Kevin, that you do not sink a lot of money into legal fees in a futile attempt at this. Not every person who has discovered that they have Sephardic Jewish ancestors will be allowed to immigrate to Spain; the Law is determined _for currently Jewish people_ who had Jewish ancestors living in Spain which were expelled from Spain by decree for the fact of their being Jewish. To initially qualify under this law, one must (a) verifiably be a Jew now, and (b) prove that your ancestors were Spanish Jews who were expelled from Spain following the Alhambra Decree of 1492 (this law is a reparative measure, not an offer of citizenship for any Jewish person who wants it). Please read these articles: 








Spain Pledged Citizenship to Sephardic Jews. Now They Feel Betrayed. (Published 2021)


In 2015, Spain said it would give citizenship to the descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled during the Spanish Inquisition. Then rejections started pouring in this summer.




www.nytimes.com












After welcoming Sephardic Jews, Spain rejects thousands of citizenship requests


Madrid reportedly has turned down 3,000 requests in recent months and hasn't responded to 17,000 others who are seeking Spanish nationality under 2015 law




www.timesofisrael.com




These illustrate the point that Spain's offer is contingent on the above mentioned criteria. Many people in Latin America discover, upon performing genealogical research, that they had Jewish ancestors in Spain, then they begin to attend a synagogue, think themselves (falsely) that they are Jewish, and think that they may apply for Spanish citizenship under this law. No-go; they are ultimately rejected for not being Jews. Such people would surely be rejected by the State of Israel as well, upon an application to make _aliya_. I would not doubt that Spain confers with the Rabbinical Authority in Israel, which is Orthodox Jewish and is responsible for determining whether someone is to be considered Jewish or not for _aliya _applications (people who have made Conservative or Reform Jewish conversions are routinely rejected for _aliya_), to determine whether the applicants under the Spanish law are, in fact, Jews or not. Even if your wife were to make an Orthodox conversion to Judaism now, she might not (or, indeed, might) qualify under the Spanish law, since she was not born into Judaism to Jewish parents. According to Jewish custom, whether someone is a Jew or not is determined only by the maternal line. One "shiksa" (a non-Jewish woman, to use the Yiddish term) in the family line would mean that a person is, indeed, not born a Jew. For your wife to be considered Jewish under Jewish religious law, and so to meet the (assumed) criteria of the Spanish law, she would have to prove that the maternal line in her family going back to the time of the expulsion from Spain was composed entirely of Jewish women. The Spanish law is very specific, and not determined for every person who thinks himself a Jew because he had some Jewish ancestors.


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## Mike Zwing (Aug 5, 2021)

Rabbitcat said:


> As a matter of interest do Palestinians displaced for decades in their own homeland by the criminal regime in Tel Aviv get the same immigration rights in Spain as Sephardic Jews?


Way off-topic, and highly provocative. Just saying...


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Thank you for people's interest and answers, but my wife and I ran into too many difficulties with this path and abandoned this years ago. We found a different path and have successfully gotten her EU citizenship straightened out (through Italian jure sanguinis) and should be showing up in Spain in the first half of 2022.

So, (at least for me) this is all a moot point.


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## Mike Zwing (Aug 5, 2021)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Thank you for people's interest and answers, but my wife and I ran into too many difficulties with this path and abandoned this years ago. We found a different path and have successfully gotten her EU citizenship straightened out (through Italian jure sanguinis)


Good! Hey, Italy is beautiful, too, and has cannolis...


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