# Brexit and Italy



## Italia-Mx

Arturo.c said:


> Hello Boris,
> 
> Italian Consulates nowadays are critically understaffed and severely overworked in all sectors. Plus, in countries with a huge Italian community like Canada they have to focus their priorities toward those who already hold Italian citizenship.


And thank goodness for that. Also, it's very helpful to have someone posting here who is originally from Italy. I see you're in Scotland. Have you any comments on Brexit or what Italians in Italy can expect to see happen as a result? Many British citizens live here, especially in my region, with the possibility of our communes becoming as busy or even more so than the consulates as circumstances change for those British citizens.


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## Arturo.c

Italia-Mx said:


> Have you any comments on Brexit or what Italians in Italy can expect to see happen as a result?


I do have comments on Brexit, but I believe it would be out of place to vent them here. Many of my fellow countrymen here are indeed worried about their future, given that not all of them bothered with applying for and obtaining an UK residence card, since it isn't mandatory to have one in order to legally live and work here.

I used to get one or two queries every month about getting Italian citizenship and / or residence in Italy (you can see from my posts on this forum that I am somewhat knowledgeable on the matter) but on the day after the outcome of the referendum was known I got 13 queries about how to get an Italian passport from Scottish (and non-Scottish) people with Italian ancestry, and several other came almost every day after that, to the point that I am seriously thinking about starting my own consulting business.

Should the new British PM, whoever he might be, not be able to sort the awful mess in which this country was plunged into by the ill-advised actions of the previous one, in my opinion there could be an exodus of people from here to other EU nations, and also towards Canada, Australia and the US by many young, healthy and educated EU citizens who came over here to work hard and start their own businesses, rather than scrounge on the British benefit system as some "Leave" campaigners accused them of, only to find themselves unwelcome in the country in which they invested their savings and their future hopes.


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## Italia-Mx

Arturo.c said:


> there could be an exodus of people from here to other EU nations, and also towards Canada, Australia and the US by many young, healthy and educated EU citizens who came over here to work hard and start their own businesses, rather than scrounge on the British benefit system as some "Leave" campaigners accused them of, only to find themselves unwelcome in the country in which they invested their savings and their future hopes.


Change can and does happen to people who think they have a right to remain indefinitely in someone else's country without taking the citizenship of that country, let alone legal residence. A British member of my own family nearly got deported after 50 years of residence in the USA. Guess what? He's now an American citizen and at a pretty price, having had to hire an immigration attorney. I, personally, would have never come to Italy expecting to stay longer than my 90 day US visa waiver, had I not had my Italian passport in hand.

And of course now Brits are wanting to have their cake and eat it too. For all those living in Italy, they want to be treated as if nothing has changed, which is not at all fair because if other citizens from outside the EU, for example Americans and Canadians must obtain a visa to remain in Italy, why should British citizens now outside the EU be treated any different?

As far as the exodus of EU citizens being kicked out of the UK and heading to US, Canada, Australia, that's not going to happen either because they can't be admitted to those countries without a visa. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's clear, for a number of reasons, why the EU experiment hasn't worked and the sooner all European countries have their sovereignty back, the better. Hopefully, a good world leader like Donald Trump will help encourage those countries to facilitate the much needed change.


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## Bevdeforges

Frankly it's doubtful that the UK will (or can) simply kick out the EU nationals currently living there en masse. They might take a hard line on work permits, thus leading to some having to move out or move on. But what they do with regard to their current EU population is very likely to be what is done to the many Brits who have been living for ages in Italy (and Spain and France). That's a very fine line to be treading - and of course one of the things nobody seems to have bothered to plan for.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx

Bevdeforges said:


> Frankly it's doubtful that the UK will (or can) simply kick out the EU nationals currently living there en masse. They might take a hard line on work permits, thus leading to some having to move out or move on. But what they do with regard to their current EU population is very likely to be what is done to the many Brits who have been living for ages in Italy (and Spain and France). That's a very fine line to be treading - and of course one of the things nobody seems to have bothered to plan for.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Agreed. Any drastic change likely won't happen for at least two years. But I did take pause with the attitude of a British citizen living in Rome for 40 years who publicly commented that it wasn't fair that he didn't get a referendum vote on something that would directly affect him. Well 40 years is a long time to be just British in Italy. If he had thought enough of his adopted country to take it's citizenship, he would have nothing to be worried about now.


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## Bevdeforges

A year or more ago we had a thread over in the France forum asking the Brit expats why so few of them seem to take French nationality when they are "permanent" residents now in France. Basically the answer was that, as EU citizens there was no need to do so. To be honest, the French don't push the issue (as do, say the Americans) - but I suspect there may be a few changes of heart on that score now.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Long-term legal residents of EU countries (except for Denmark and Ireland) can apply for EC Long-Term Residence Permits. As I understand it, that includes U.K. citizens. That'd be an excellent idea now. It's not citizenship (another option), but the EC Long-Term Residence Permit offers a great deal of immigration security and portability within most of the EU (Ireland and Denmark excepted). It's the EU's version of permanent residence.


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## accbgb

BBCWatcher said:


> Long-term legal residents of EU countries (except for Denmark and Ireland) can apply for EC Long-Term Residence Permits. As I understand it, that includes U.K. citizens. That'd be an excellent idea now. It's not citizenship (another option), but the EC Long-Term Residence Permit offers a great deal of immigration security and portability within most of the EU (Ireland and Denmark excepted). It's the EU's version of permanent residence.


I wouldn't be surprised if EU "local" governments immediately begin to make life difficult for UK citizens under the guise of "it's all over except for the technicalities."


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## Italia-Mx

Hungary will be holding a referendum early October asking citizens to decide on whether or not to accept asylum seekers currently in other EU states who have been mandated for relocation by a Brussels quota system. My guess is that the Hungarians will vote to refuse them, afterwhich the EU will try to levy fines against Hungary, afterwhich Hungary will also likely say Bye Bye to the EU. The unraveling has already begun.


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## Bevdeforges

I dunno.... The EU has always left the matter of immigration (i.e. from outside the EU) to the individual countries. Probably a sop to get them to go with the program on the freedom of movement (within the EU). Right now the only weapon the EU has to try to "convince" the various countries to take in refugees from outside the EU is jawboning. I would see them offering a deal on that (say, "take in x refugees, or pay € y zillion to the pot to support those going elsewhere in the EU"). 

But, the status of the UK residents in other EU countries will hang on what the UK decides to do about all the EU nationals living there. If they start picking and choosing (like the French can stay, but the Poles have to move out) then there will be retribution across the EU.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Arturo.c

accbgb said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if EU "local" governments immediately begin to make life difficult for UK citizens under the guise of "it's all over except for the technicalities."


Some of my acquaintances here are looking into the process of applying for an "EEA Registration Certificate", which would grant them indefinite leave to remain in the UK, but it involves filling a massive multi-pages form (80 sheets or so) and providing several documents, and also mailing their passports to the immigration office which will hold on to them until the application is processed.

As for the "EU long term residence permit", I thought that only non-EU residents of Italy had to apply for it, but instead the  directions in English on how to apply posted on the website of the city of Prato do not say anything on whether the applicant has to be a non-EU citizen or not.


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## BBCWatcher

Here's some more information (generalized).


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## john-in-seattle

Interesting take on all of this by Joseph Stiglitz, a well-regarded (by most) economist - teaches at Columbia in New York. Has a new book out on the Euro ("The Euro: How A Common Currency Threatens the Future of Europe") (thinks it's doomed) and big Italian banks (in serious trouble): 

Joseph Stiglitz interview: Italy and the end of the euro - Business Insider


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## GeordieBorn

An interesting “booking selling” view! No, really it is very interesting, but then again I'm sure there are equally fascinating predictions/views that differ. I tend to agree the entire EU looks to be at risk, but suspect it has more to do with a combination of events in the world leading to a very nationalistic view throughout the world. Hopefully things will change, but unfortunately I can’t see it being soon!


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