# Property purchase



## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

We are moving to spain Murcia area and was wondering if anybody has had any dealings with legally spain prestige property. As I am sure you all know it feels like a mine field out there.
Many thanks blue Harvey.:amen:


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## Dunpleecin (Dec 20, 2012)

Not me but as well as this board there are always locally based discussion boards so do a google and see if there are any. Might even be facebook groups too.

Just be prepared for an onslaught of "don't buy you must rent first blah blah blah".


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## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks dupleecin. I know what you mean about the don't buy brigade


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The *don't buy* mob are all about making the maximum profit so they say rent first. That's going to cost you 12 months rent at €500 plus for a year so that's more than €6,000 you are out of pocket to start with. If you are looking for a home (i.e. long-term living) there is no reason whatever for not buying. Find the place you want, and where you want and if it is worth to you what is being asked, then go for it. It doesn't matter a hoot if its value goes down a thousand or two after you have bought it, you aren't selling anyway. If they applied that principle to buying a car then they would still be riding on bicycles.

HOWEVER, a word of warning, go into it with your eyes wide open. Take care with urbanisations, especially if there are a lot of the properties unsold, facilities incomplete, etc. The chances are that is the way things will stay for the foreseeable future and even more so if the developer/builder has gone or is going bankrupt.

The thing is to make sure that you are buying in the right area/place to suit *you* for the long-term. We did that (it takes a fair bit of research) and after 5½ years, we are as happy with the house and where we live as the day we moved here and, in fact, I would say we are happier.


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## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

*Thanks*

Thanks for all the advice baldilocks seems sound to me great minds think alike
Blue Harvey


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

blue harvey said:


> Thanks for all the advice baldilocks seems sound to me great minds think alike
> Blue Harvey


You have to get clear in your own minds just what you want and, more importantly, what you DON'T want. 


You need to remember that climate varies with altitude as well as with latitude so while you might think that the farther south you go, the warmer/hotter it will be, this is not necessarily so. Today for example: where we live at 703 m the max temp was 19°; Andújar 50km North of us 228 m, max 24°; Córdoba 106 km Northwest and 106 m, max 25°. Those places that are hotter in summer may well be much colder in the winter.
Do you want/need to live in amongst other expats or would you prefer to live where it is predominately Spanish? 
Do you want/need to live on an urbanisation or would you prefer to be in the campo or in a normal city/town/village? Bear in mind that campo-living, while it might offer charms, access is often over unmetalled tracks, there may be difficulty in getting services connected, etc. and how will an ambulance find you?
Do you want/need high speed internet.?
Do you want/need a house (with or without land), an apartment, or...?
Do you want/need access to frequent public transport (bear in mind that in much of Spain, public transport only operates when it is needed, e.g. to and from work/school and back again with maybe one or two shopping buses a week) and while there are some high-speed rail lines, much of the Spanish rail network is sparse and with few and infrequent trains and you may need to drive (or take an infrequent bus) some 70 or 80 km to get to the nearest station?
Will you have any special food requirements that might only be met in a large town? Will you have to have British or other nationality foods which again might be in limited supply unless you are near specialist shops?
and much much more.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Dunpleecin said:


> Just be prepared for an onslaught of "don't buy you must rent first blah blah blah".


That'll be me then lol - altho I wouldnt say "must" - we're all individuals and capable of making up our own minds, we just give our viewpoints and heres mine!!! If we'd bought when we arrived in Spain (and house prices started to fall), it would have cost us dearly. The house we were going to buy was 500,000€ (still on the market as it happens for "200,000€ four years later - I still watch it) It belonged to friends of ours and we were going to do a swap - they wanted a uk house and we wanted a spanish house. We didnt do it in the end cos of the costs of buying and we really didnt know enough about the area or the way things work in Spain as we'd only been there a few months at the time. We also moved back to the UK after 5 years, so we'd have been in trouble if we had bought and had to try to sell

You should always rent first, if only so you know whats what, you understand the properties and the rules of buying in Spain. AFAIK property prices are still falling and therefore if you rented for 9 months, its possible you wouldnt lose anything as the properties may well be cheaper when you're ready to buy.

Jo xxx


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Both arguments can be appropriate given the circumstances. The knack seems to be the ability to be able to discern what you need and like probably not knowing the things that you do want or conversely don't want. If you are sure you know what you want (and can live with your mistakes as Baldy does -he won't admit it though) then go ahead and buy but if you think there is a likelihood that you won' t be able to tolerate something that you find impossible to live with, then rent first.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> Both arguments can be appropriate given the circumstances. The knack seems to be the ability to be able to discern what you need and like probably not knowing the things that you do want or conversely don't want. If you are sure you know what you want (*and can live with your mistakes as Baldy does -he won't admit it though*) then go ahead and buy but if you think there is a likelihood that you won' t be able to tolerate something that you find impossible to live with, then rent first.


What mistakes?


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

jojo said:


> That'll be me then lol - altho I wouldnt say "must" - we're all individuals and capable of making up our own minds, we just give our viewpoints and heres mine!!! If we'd bought when we arrived in Spain (and house prices started to fall), it would have cost us dearly. The house we were going to buy was 500,000€ (still on the market as it happens for "200,000€ four years later - I still watch it) It belonged to friends of ours and we were going to do a swap - they wanted a uk house and we wanted a spanish house. We didnt do it in the end cos of the costs of buying and we really didnt know enough about the area or the way things work in Spain as we'd only been there a few months at the time. We also moved back to the UK after 5 years, so we'd have been in trouble if we had bought and had to try to sell
> 
> You should always rent first, if only so you know whats what, you understand the properties and the rules of buying in Spain. AFAIK property prices are still falling and therefore if you rented for 9 months, its possible you wouldnt lose anything as the properties may well be cheaper when you're ready to buy.
> 
> Jo xxx


Figures for March show sales up 22.8% on March 2013 with month-on-month sales up 5.2%, the biggest monthly rise since 2010. Average prices are now considered to be back at 2003 levels. 

I have seen more interest in the last two months than in the previous two years combined.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Had we bought the first place we moved into, it would have been a real nightmare, it was a very lovely place, and we fell in love with it. But we thought we'll test it first by renting a few months. The neighbours were horrid, the fields opposite smelt crappy at the best of times, etc.etc. so we ended up moving out a few months later. 

House was on the market for 280,000, now it is still on market for 137,000 (just 3 years ago this month!). I don't think I have lost any money renting it out for 6 months. 

Now we are still renting, in another area. We are very happy, and in time we have met lots of people and learn lots of things about the area, so it is time to buy now and we know pretty well where we want to buy and so we are looking to buy in the next few weeks. 

I would always recommend renting first and test the area before you make your mind up and buy.

This house we are living in now, was 305,000 and now they sell it for 150,000, so even if we buy this one, we would have saved over 150,000. No need to make sums! 

Prices will keep dropping slightly for a couple of years. Don't rush!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Madliz said:


> Figures for March show sales up 22.8% on March 2013 with month-on-month sales up 5.2%, the biggest monthly rise since 2010. Average prices are now considered to be back at 2003 levels.
> 
> I have seen more interest in the last two months than in the previous two years combined.


That's encouraging. Mind you, 2012-2013 were the worst years ever so any increase is going to look good.

I think I saw somewhere that 17% of sales were to foreigners, and the proportion is much higher on the coasts. If I had some spare cash and an eye on the long term, I would buy now, there are still plenty of bargains around and the £-€ exchange rate is good.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Madliz said:


> Figures for March show sales up 22.8% on March 2013 with month-on-month sales up 5.2%, the biggest monthly rise since 2010. Average prices are now considered to be back at 2003 levels.
> 
> I have seen more interest in the last two months than in the previous two years combined.


Thats good, but questionable. IMO, until they sort out the distressed sales, the repossessions and the half built, empty derelict newbuilds, theres still gonna be a hold on significant price rises 

Jo xxx


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

blue harvey said:


> Thanks dupleecin. I know what you mean about the don't buy brigade


Hi - after a lengthy involvement with this forum, as a member, I suppose I should no longer feel irritation, or even surprise, when newer members denounce and insult any contributors who raise dissenting voices (or, even, dare to inject a note of caution..) regarding their stated plans - despite the latter having been described and posted here in the hope (presumably) of attracting useful advice..! 

However, IME here, it's rare, indeed, for a contributor to do as you have done - to rubbish and insult others *prior* to their even having posted responses to your query! Incredibly, you've chosen to pre-empt any such posts with your condemnatory reference to the '_don't buy brigade_'..! 

Personally, I don't accept your denigration as either fair or apprpriate in the context of this forum, where the majority of us attempt to help and support anyone who arrives here with requests for information and/or advice!


Obviously, your own mind is firmly closed to any '_pro-rent first_' advice, which, whilst in opposition to that volunteered by some others on this thread, would be equally valid! Opinions proffered here are underpinned by members' personal experience and knowledge, gained, in many cases, through several years' residence within Spain. It's no wonder, therefore, that differing perspectives will be registered and defended, fiercely, on threads such as this one; it's for the individual reader to determine which, if any, contain something of value.

Your own plan to jump right in and purchase a Spanish property, without having rented, beforehand, in your favoured location, is your own to make and to put into effect - but, please; don't denigrate those of us who happen to believe that the cautionary principle has strong merit; especially given the continuing '_economic crisis_' circumstances! 

Additionally, Spain's sheer size presents seemingly limitless options to new EU migrants researching locations in which to reside - so, it's logical, to some of us, that a period of property rental, within the favoured area (to ascertain whether, in fact, it remains so and has no insurmountable flaws) would be time very well spent and might, even, save much heartache and cash in future years! A search through this forum's archive would highlight a host of past problems faced by migrant and expat. property owners in Spain. It's definitely '_Buyer Beware_' - just as in the UK!

BTW; in case you are completely unaware, rudeness rarely encourages others to wish to engage in discussion with the offender - so; '_'Play nicely with the other children, if you wish to share their toys!'_' as the Pre-school teacher advises the newest arrivals..!

Saludos,
GC


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - after a lengthy involvement with this forum, as a member, I suppose I should no longer feel irritation, or even surprise, when newer members denounce and insult any contributors who raise dissenting voices (or, even, dare to inject a note of caution..) regarding their stated plans - despite the latter having been described and posted here in the hope (presumably) of attracting useful advice..!
> 
> However, IME here, it's rare, indeed, for a contributor to do as you have done - to rubbish and insult others *prior* to their even having posted responses to your query! Incredibly, you've chosen to pre-empt any such posts with your condemnatory reference to the '_don't buy brigade_'..!
> 
> ...


GC you are making an unwarranted and rude post against a new poster for merely stating that he/she is aware of the "don't buy" brigade's adamant view that one must rent first irrespective of the circumstances and that one is a fool not to rent first.

None of us is aware of the OP's personal circumstances and it is very much one's circumstances that determine whether it is a good idea (note - not compulsory) to either buy or rent.


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Don't bother renting, Arboleas has everything you will nead:-
A hardwear shop, for any repairs you may need.
About 5 bars to drown your sorrows in.
A small supermarket.
And last but not least....an undertakers.
That's about it!


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

jojo said:


> Thats good, but questionable. IMO, until they sort out the distressed sales, the repossessions and the half built, empty derelict newbuilds, theres still gonna be a hold on significant price rises
> 
> Jo xxx


I never suggested that prices were rising, but sales are up, as it is considered that the bottom has just about been reached, with prices back at levels not seen for over a decade.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Spot on.

Just let it go GC.

Quiet day in the office/on the terrace?



baldilocks said:


> GC you are making an unwarranted and rude post against a new poster for merely stating that he/she is aware of the "don't buy" brigade's adamant view that one must rent first irrespective of the circumstances and that one is a fool not to rent first.
> 
> None of us is aware of the OP's personal circumstances and it is very much one's circumstances that determine whether it is a good idea (note - not compulsory) to either buy or rent.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

'Brigade' isn't an adequate way to interpret people's opinions. There's no right or wrong - simply some favour one way over another. Their views are just as important and both 'brigades' qualify their reasons. That's forums for you, different views that give everyone - including newbies food for thought!!

Jo xxxx


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> GC you are making an unwarranted and rude post against a new poster for merely stating that he/she is aware of the "don't buy" brigade's adamant view that one must rent first irrespective of the circumstances and that one is a fool not to rent first.
> 
> None of us is aware of the OP's personal circumstances and it is very much one's circumstances that determine whether it is a good idea (note - not compulsory) to either buy or rent.


Hi - with respect, I was responding to what, IMO, was rudeness on the part of the OP. I felt that his/her terminology was inappropriate and unpleasant, given the context - as I pointed out, in my own post. 

.However, having clarified that point, I'm now focusing on this thread's original query - and am fascinated by the differing nature of the responses, so far I'm sure that such variety of opinion will be of great benefit to the poster concerned - it's proof that there is no one correct choice for all, when urgent decisions need making, re. future homes for expats or migrants, in Spanish locations!

There's certainly an incredible wealth of experience and current knowledge available to be tapped within this forum - but, in the end, it's for the OP to determine whether, or not, such resources would be useful in assisting him/her in the quest for a new Spanish home _and idyll_..!

Saludos,
GC


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

I think that GUAPACHICA actually had it right! The OP was agreeing with Dunpleecins "don't buy you must rent first blah blah blah" comment, and that denotes meaningless or worthless chatter, and I think THAT is the rude part of this thread!!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I didn't rent before I bought, mainly because it didn't suit our particular circumstances at the time. We were both still working full time and wanted to buy to use the house as a holiday home until such time as we were able to give up work and move over permanently, so didn't have the freedom to spend months at a time renting.

I think buying straight off CAN work out well, if you are realistic about what you want from the area and what is going to be suitable for you as you become older (most of us who move being in our '50s or older). 

Even if someone rents before going on to buy, problems can crop up in the future which couldn't have been foreseen. The neighbours may have been fine to begin with, but people do move and someone who moves in nearby may not be so nice, people can acquire noisy dogs, etc., or something could be built which will spoil your view - and there isn't a thing you can do about it.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I suppose that by renting for the whole of the time you live in Spain, you retain the freedom to be able to move yourself if something crops up which you're not happy about, or you decide to return to your home country.

However, if a person spends, say, €6,000 per year on rent (and some might spend much more) and lives in Spain for 20 years, then that's €120,000 spent and gone forever. If they bought, even if they sell at a loss as some unfortunately have had to because of the financial crisis, at least some of their financial outlay will be recovered. 
If they die owning a property, then yes, their heirs will have inheritance tax to pay. But then again, if they'd always rented they would have spent money which would otherwise have formed part of their estate.

Swings and roundabouts, and each individual has to decide for themselves which they prefer.


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> I suppose that by renting for the whole of the time you live in Spain, you retain the freedom to be able to move yourself if something crops up which you're not happy about, or you decide to return to your home country.
> 
> However, if a person spends, say, €6,000 per year on rent (and some might spend much more) and lives in Spain for 20 years, then that's €120,000 spent and gone forever. If they bought, even if they sell at a loss as some unfortunately have had to because of the financial crisis, at least some of their financial outlay will be recovered.
> If they die owning a property, then yes, their heirs will have inheritance tax to pay. But then again, if they'd always rented they would have spent money which would otherwise have formed part of their estate.
> ...


The advice to rent is usually only intended for a short period, so as to get to know the pros and cons of the area where you intend to buy (a full year is a good idea, so as to experience the hot and cold temps. and life style available). Buying without this info. is just taking one terrible risk!!!!

"All that glistens is not gold".


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

buble said:


> The advice to rent is usually only intended for a short period, so as to get to know the pros and cons of the area where you intend to buy (a full year is a good idea, so as to experience the hot and cold temps. and life style available). Buying without this info. is just taking one terrible risk!!!!
> 
> "All that glistens is not gold".


IMO, people with a modicum of common sense should be able to inform themselves of the majority of such information before going ahead with a purchase, though. If one is buying in the UK, isn't the usual advice to make sure you visit the property, and the surrounding area, a few times at different hours of the day/night, for example? Wouldn't anyone buying in the UK check out the facilities in the area, travelling times for places they might want to get to, and so on, in advance? Detailed information about temperatures is available at the click of a mouse, these days, no need to take the word of an estate agent - and we took a compass with us when house hunting to check the properties' orientation (much to the agents' surprise).


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

Madliz said:


> Figures for March show sales up 22.8% on March 2013 with month-on-month sales up 5.2%, the biggest monthly rise since 2010. Average prices are now considered to be back at 2003 levels.
> 
> I have seen more interest in the last two months than in the previous two years combined.


House sales do seem to be on the up... I sold 4 houses last week. Prices are staying much the same though.


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> IMO, people with a modicum of common sense should be able to inform themselves of the majority of such information before going ahead with a purchase, though. If one is buying in the UK, isn't the usual advice to make sure you visit the property, and the surrounding area, a few times at different hours of the day/night, for example? Wouldn't anyone buying in the UK check out the facilities in the area, travelling times for places they might want to get to, and so on, in advance? Detailed information about temperatures is available at the click of a mouse, these days, no need to take the word of an estate agent - and we took a compass with us when house hunting to check the properties' orientation (much to the agents' surprise).


Yes, but that is buying in your own country, where you are familliar with such things.
A foreign country with a different climate/culture is quite another kettle of fish!!!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

buble said:


> Yes, but that is buying in your own country, where you are familliar with such things.
> A foreign country with a different climate/culture is quite another kettle of fish!!!!


But what (to my eternal astonishment) seems to happen is that some people who would do all that due diligence before moving to a different area in their own country, don't seem to bother when they're buying in a foreign country! 

I'm not saying that everyone should go ahead and buy, or that everyone should rent first - just that whichever way you choose to approach it won't necessarily guarantee freedom from problems forever more. None of us is able to predict the future and to some extent it will always involve a leap of faith. How many people who do rent first go on to buy the exact same property they've been renting, after all?


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

The point of renting for some time before you buy, at least gives you the opportunity to live in the area and see that it comes up to expectations. If you buy and after a period of time, your feelings chang, you are stuck with it!
I personally rented for the 10 years that I was there, and moved 3 times during that period. I invested the capital that I would have spent buying, and the interest more than covered the rent. I would encourage anyone to think about that before parting with any money! There are good, safe investments available.
We are now back, living on the holiday Isle Of Wight, where the friendly community spirit and entertainment have to be experienced to be believed.
Every day, for the first 7 years in Spain, I used to say to my wife "we're in paradise", but things changed. I have seen so many people return to the UK 'cos their feelings altered, and so many people wanting to go back, but are stuck 'cos they can't sell (for them it was a terrible mistake to buy!!!)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

buble said:


> The point of renting for some time before you buy, at least gives you the opportunity to live in the area and see that it comes up to expectations. If you buy and after a period of time, your feelings chang, you are stuck with it!
> I personally rented for the 10 years that I was there, and moved 3 times during that period. I invested the capital that I would have spent buying, and the interest more than covered the rent. I would encourage anyone to think about that before parting with any money! There are good, safe investments available.
> We are now back, living on the holiday Isle Of Wight, where the friendly community spirit and entertainment have to be experienced to be believed.
> Every day, for the first 7 years in Spain, I used to say to my wife "we're in paradise", but things changed. I have seen so many people return to the UK 'cos their feelings altered, and so many people wanting to go back, but are stuck 'cos they can't sell (for them it was a terrible mistake to buy!!!)


But that is for you. People who thoroughly research their move and where they are going to live are more likely to be satisfied.


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> But that is for you. People who thoroughly research their move and where they are going to live are more likely to be satisfied.


We spent a lot of time thoroughly researching and visiting places, made many Spanish, Dutch and English friends, and for 7 years were very happy in "Paradise",
convinced that our feelings would not change.... but they did!!!
Nearly 90,000 Brits left Spain last year because of those changes. They must have thought that Spain was right for them, but after a while found out that the dream had faded!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> But that is for you. People who thoroughly research their move and where they are going to live are more likely to be satisfied.


Like I have already said, everyone has different needs and opinions. Knowledge and research are paramount. We planned to buy, but in retrospect, what we were planning to buy and other unforeseen circumstances meant that I'm grateful we didn't. But for others - maybe. In fact we may buy a little 'bolt hole' in Spain in the near future, but I like to think we know what we want having lived there for five years - but we'll keep a place in the UK. 

'Horses for courses' but my advice for anyone who hasn't lived in Spain and isn't sure of all the processes and other issues should rent first!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

buble said:


> We spent a lot of time thoroughly researching and visiting places, made many Spanish, Dutch and English friends, and for 7 years were very happy in "Paradise",
> convinced that our feelings would not change.... but they did!!!
> Nearly 90,000 Brits left Spain last year* because of those changes*. They must have thought that Spain was right for them, but after a while found out that the dream had faded!


Not true. Many of those who left should never have come in the first place, they had no income, no prospects and no hope. Many left because they found that Spain would no longer accept their EHICs for healthcare once they were resident and they were going to have to take out healthcare insurance, which if one has pre-existing conditions is either very expensive or impossible to get, so they went back to the NHS.

We get them on the forum every year with absolutely no idea of what it means to live in another country where there is not the cushion of the welfare state - "I'm willing to do just about anything to get an income" so are millions of unemployed Spaniards. Yes, they came with a "dream" and that is about all it was. Ever heard of the expression "Building castles in Spain"? That is the expression that fits them perfectly. There is no point in my discussing this any further with you since you are convinced that you are right.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

To expand on Baldilocks:

Happiness is in your head. You can be happy in jail if your head is in a good place.

James Altucher says it best in a recent post I read.

"But something is going on in their lives that is bringing up a fear. And they indulge the fear by having an anger towards you. By projecting their own fear onto you. For a brief moment, you become the monster that has been hiding onside of them."

The Ultimate Cheat Sheet for Dealing With Haters Altucher Confidential


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> Not true. Many of those who left should never have come in the first place, they had no income, no prospects and no hope. Many left because they found that Spain would no longer accept their EHICs for healthcare once they were resident and they were going to have to take out healthcare insurance, which if one has pre-existing conditions is either very expensive or impossible to get, so they went back to the NHS.
> 
> We get them on the forum every year with absolutely no idea of what it means to live in another country where there is not the cushion of the welfare state - "I'm willing to do just about anything to get an income" so are millions of unemployed Spaniards. Yes, they came with a "dream" and that is about all it was. Ever heard of the expression "Building castles in Spain"? That is the expression that fits them perfectly. There is no point in my discussing this any further with you since you are convinced that you are right.


You cant generalise. There are so many unforeseen circumstances that can spoil the "dream" - leaving family and all of your good friends, health issues, lack of the social assistance if you become infirm, one spouse being left if the worst happened....... If you're younger then you need an income in Spain, which you may have but then lose and lets not forget the good ole exchange rate, which can change things ..... Its not just about the meticulous planning, its about the unexpected! But its a choice we all make based on our circumstances and those of Spain

Jo xxx


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

jojo said:


> You cant generalise. There are so many unforeseen circumstances that can spoil the "dream" - leaving family and all of your good friends, health issues, lack of the social assistance if you become infirm, one spouse being left if the worst happened....... If you're younger then you need an income in Spain, which you may have but then lose..... Its not just about the meticulous planning, its about the unexpected! But its a choice we all make based on our circumstances and those in Spain
> 
> Jo xxx


Exactly, You can't possibly know how you are going to feel in the future, and being able to have the option of moving "back home" as lot's of Brits call it (and that gives the game away), is another reason to make certain that you have found the right place, and the only way to do that is to give yourself a safety net by renting first.
Those numbers I quoted are official registry figures, and the enormous number of properties on the market are further proof.
It isn't only Brits who are bailing out, it's the French and Germans too.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

buble said:


> Those numbers I quoted are official registry figures, and the enormous number of properties on the market are further proof.
> It isn't only Brits who are bailing out, it's the French and Germans too.


Can I just point out that the way those figures have been reported in the foreign press has given a completely inaccurate impression of the situation. Yes, 90,000 people's details were deleted from the empadronamiento in one year, 2013. However, that was because Ayuntamientos carried out an updating exercise by requiring everyone whose details on the padron had not been changed for the previous 5 years to reconfirm them. Anyone who did not do so was then removed from the records. Therefore, those 90,000 people could have left at any time during that 5 year period. 

I do realise that after a period of time, people can and do decide that they no longer wish, for whatever reason, to remain in Spain. But if they rented for a year before buying, then bought, that can still happen for all the reasons others have outlined such as ill health, bereavement, etc.

Buying straight off does not necessarily mean courting certain disaster, provided sufficient research is done and people know themselves and their needs well enough to make the right choices, and renting before buying does not guarantee a happy ever after life in Spain either. 

If I'd had to move house 3 times in 10 years I'd think I wasn't choosing terribly well. I bought my house 11 years ago and so far we're still very happy here - who knows, 10 years hence we might feel differently, or we may not. I want a home that I can mould to my own tastes and requirements, not live with someone else's choice of kitchen, bathrooms, etc.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

We had decided to make the move to Spain in early '94. We arranged to rent a house for the month of March and set about house-hunting. We found the house of our dreams three weeks later, the papers were signed a month later, we moved over the following month and it is where I still live - 20 years now. My husband has passed away, the children have flown the nest and I am now trying to sell in order to downsize and move closer to family in the south. 

I've spent several years now doing lots of research on new areas and, if I get a sale, will move to my chosen area and, if I find the right property, will buy again. Only that way can I tailor the property to my exact requirements, something renting doesn't allow.

I know that buying and selling is rather more complicated in Spain these days, but people come unstuck in the UK too when circumstances change! One must just be careful not to overcommit oneself.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I disagree with the idea that the number of properties on the market is further proof of people bailing out of life in Spain.

What you have to remember is that many properties were bought by people who thought that they were going to make a stack of cash out of capital appreciation. I know several people who bought with no intention of spending more than 4 weeks of a year in their properties.

The people selling those properties aren't bailing out of life in Spain, they're bailing out of bad investments.




buble said:


> Exactly, You can't possibly know how you are going to feel in the future, and being able to have the option of moving "back home" as lot's of Brits call it (and that gives the game away), is another reason to make certain that you have found the right place, and the only way to do that is to give yourself a safety net by renting first.
> Those numbers I quoted are official registry figures, and the enormous number of properties on the market are further proof.
> It isn't only Brits who are bailing out, it's the French and Germans too.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

And here folks is the main reason renting isn't attractive, you can't do what you want with it.



Madliz said:


> Only that way can I tailor the property to my exact requirements, something renting doesn't allow.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Horlics said:


> And here folks is the main reason renting isn't attractive, you can't do what you want with it.


But no one is saying dont ever buy, I just feel its more financially and emotionally prudent to rent if you havent lived in Spain before. Theres a new post on the forum which I think sums up some of the issues. I hope the poster doesnt mind me putting a link here

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-spain/442050-sharing-try-buy-experience.html

Jo xxx


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Oh I agree. No point doing what you want with a home if it's somewhere you don't want to be.



jojo said:


> But no one is saying dont ever buy, I just feel its more financially and emotionally prudent to rent if you havent lived in Spain before. Theres a new post on the forum which I think sums up some of the issues. I hope the poster doesnt mind me putting a link here
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-spain/442050-sharing-try-buy-experience.html
> 
> Jo xxx


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

jojo said:


> But no one is saying dont ever buy, I just feel its more financially and emotionally prudent to rent if you havent lived in Spain before. Theres a new post on the forum which I think sums up some of the issues. I hope the poster doesnt mind me putting a link here
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-spain/442050-sharing-try-buy-experience.html
> 
> Jo xxx


We bought 12 years ago and I am glad we did. Our house feels like a real home. We rented in the UK years ago at one point. It was a dream place to live in Surrey, next to a top golf course, but it never felt like a real home to us. Having said that, it really depends on whether you are committed to a new life. Is Spain the place you intend on remaining, or is it the case, if we need to go back we can at any time. We burned our bridges so to speak and never regretted it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Aron said:


> We bought 12 years ago and I am glad we did. Our house feels like a real home. We rented in the UK years ago at one point. It was a dream place to live in Surrey, next to a top golf course, but it never felt like a real home to us. Having said that, it really depends on whether you are committed to a new life. Is Spain the place you intend on remaining, or is it the case, if we need to go back we can at any time. We burned our bridges so to speak and never regretted it.


Thats fine, you were lucky - As I keep saying, I'm not suggesting only ever renting, I'm just saying its better and safer to rent for a while til you know what you want, how you feel and most importantly, understand the ways things work in Spain with regards to purchasing, illegal builds, abogados, prices, rules and regs.....

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jojo said:


> Thats fine, you were lucky - As I keep saying, I'm not suggesting only ever renting, I'm just saying its better and safer to rent for a while til you know what you want, how you feel and most importantly, understand the ways things work in Spain with regards to purchasing, illegal builds, abogados, prices, rules and regs.....
> 
> Jo xxx


But what those of us who see nothing particularly wrong with buying without renting first are saying is that LUCK isn't really what's important - all of the information you need about the buying process, costs, illegal builds, abogados, weather,and so on ad infinitum is easily available online. I started researching all that at least 12 months before starting to look for a property - that's what it's there for.

I came across other people whilst we were looking who appeared to have more or less stuck a pin in a map and because property seemed cheap where they'd seen it on a website, that's where they looked. They knew nothing, absolutely nothing, about the town itself. Small wonder if after moving in, people who've done that find themselves thinking "what the hell have I done?".


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

You can do as much research as you like, but until you actually live in an area, you can't possibly know how you are going to feel about it in the future!!!! That's why it is safer to rent there first.
If it doesn't work for you, you can find somewhere else.
To advise someone (who you know nothing about), to buy and not rent, is quite frankly, irresponsible!!!!!!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

buble said:


> You can do as much research as you like, but until you actually live in an area, you can't possibly know how you are going to feel about it in the future!!!! That's why it is safer to rent there first.
> If it doesn't work for you, you can find somewhere else.
> To advise someone (who you know nothing about), to buy and not rent, is quite frankly, irresponsible!!!!!!!


Please do not ascribe comments to people which they have not made. At no time has anyone advised anyone on this thread to buy and not to rent.

I (and others) have merely said that it can be possible to do so without it turning out to be a disaster, and pointed out some flaws in the argument advocating always renting first - such as:-

the need to find out all about the buying process, costs, legality issues, taxes - all information which is easily available online
people's circumstances and/or the area they have bought in can change over time - true, but renting for up to a year first and then buying doesn't mean that won't happen.

Actually, it is those advocating renting who seem bent on dishing out prescriptive advice to people they know nothing about.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Actually, it is those advocating renting who seem bent on dishing out prescriptive advice to people they know nothing about.


Especially when they are relatively newbies and don't actually live here. 

It would be interesting to know whether they wouldn't follow the "MUST rent first" policy if they were moving to somewhere in the UK.


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## Dunpleecin (Dec 20, 2012)

To Blue Harvey, I am sorry your well meaning post asking a simple question was hijacked. I feel partly responsible by using the "Brigade" remark, but I stand by it because the ensuing defensiveness by those concerned probably proved my point.

To those denouncing Blue Harvey for merely saying they they knew what I meant, suggesting that she was insulting people is nothing short of bullying and you should be ashamed of yourselves.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Especially when they are relatively newbies and don't actually live here.
> 
> It would be interesting to know whether they wouldn't follow the "MUST rent first" policy if they were moving to somewhere in the UK.


I've rented various properties in the same town for 10.5 years..... & it was really only after maybe 5 years that I knew which part of town & kind of property was best for us as a family - & we had been coming to the area for YEARS before we moved here, so thought we knew what we wanted/needed & where

we did own in the UK, but in fact rented in various areas before buying there, too


we nearly bought several times - & in retrospect none of those properties nor areas would have been right as our circumstances changed

it used to be easy to buy & sell as your needs changed - it's not so easy - almost impossible - now, so yes, I would advocate renting for a while at least

but I'd never say that anyone MUST - & I've never seen any other member here say that, either


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## V-Dog (May 10, 2012)

Madliz said:


> Figures for March show sales up 22.8% on March 2013 with month-on-month sales up 5.2%, the biggest monthly rise since 2010. Average prices are now considered to be back at 2003 levels.



What figures are those? When posting such info proof / links should always be provided imo


Price of Used Housing Fell by 5.5% in April Year-on-Year:

http://news.kyero.com/2014/05/09/price-of-used-housing-fell-by-5-5-in-april-year-on-year/


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> Please do not ascribe comments to people which they have not made. At no time has anyone advised anyone on this thread to buy and not to rent.
> 
> I (and others) have merely said that it can be possible to do so without it turning out to be a disaster, and pointed out some flaws in the argument advocating always renting first - such as:-
> 
> ...


The whole tone of your posts is against renting before buying!
The principle of renting first, is to err on the side of caution. To advocate that, I and others don't need to know anything about them. It is plain common sense.
Our advice to the OP, should be to live in the area he/she has chosen, before comitting themselves financially. Otherwise he/she is stuck there, and if not happy, then are relying on a stagnant, overfilled market to save them!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

V-Dog said:


> What figures are those? When posting such info proof / links should always be provided imo
> 
> 
> Price of Used Housing Fell by 5.5% in April Year-on-Year:
> ...


It is no good just taking one small item out of context and not looking at other parts of the same article which say that Andalucía (one of the most popular destinations) not only has almost the lowest price fall (since 2007) but also the biggest price rise in April.


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Dunpleecin said:


> To Blue Harvey, I am sorry your well meaning post asking a simple question was hijacked. I feel partly responsible by using the "Brigade" remark, but I stand by it because the ensuing defensiveness by those concerned probably proved my point.
> 
> To those denouncing Blue Harvey for merely saying they they knew what I meant, suggesting that she was insulting people is nothing short of bullying and you should be ashamed of yourselves.


You are confused...you used the words "bla bla bla" (which is insulting). It was blue harvey who agreed with you, and used the word "brigade"!

And baldilocks liked it!!!!!


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

I think we should calm down a bit here.

I'm one of the "rent first brigade" but it's just friendly advice, well meant, that can be taken, discarded or disputed. I just tell it how I see it which is basically all any of us can do but if it helps someone make the right decision then job done eh

At the end of the day the op will do whatever they think is best and I wish them luck :yo:



Doggy


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Dunpleecin said:


> To Blue Harvey, I am sorry your well meaning post asking a simple question was hijacked. I feel partly responsible by using the "Brigade" remark, but I stand by it because the ensuing defensiveness by those concerned probably proved my point.
> 
> To those denouncing Blue Harvey for merely saying they they knew what I meant, suggesting that she was insulting people is nothing short of bullying and you should be ashamed of yourselves.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "brigade" because, apart from the militaristic connection, also means a "group of like minded people", e.g. the Boys' Brigade, Girls Life Brigade, the 'rent first brigade', etc.



> You are confused...you used the words "bla bla bla" (which is insulting).


As for people who think that "bla, bla, bla" is insulting they need to look into their own minds and ways of thinking since it is an accepted way of inferring the repeated emphasis of a point, irrespective of whether it has any validity in the particular circumstances or not and is *not*, in any way, insulting. 

My final (probably) words on the matter, it that it is up to the person concerned, her/his personal circumstances, needs and wishes whether she or he chooses to rent or buy first and to suggest that a person, who chooses to do other than what another favours, is in less that full command of her his senses *is* insulting.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

V-Dog said:


> What figures are those? When posting such info proof / links should always be provided imo
> 
> 
> Price of Used Housing Fell by 5.5% in April Year-on-Year:
> ...


Here are the links:

http://news.kyero.com/2014/05/14/home-sales-increase-by-22-8-in-march/

Property in Spain has fallen to 2003 levels | LeaderBCN

I fail to understand why people on this thread are getting so angry at others' opinions. They are simply that - 'opinions' not 'fact'. There is no right or wrong here as all people and situations are different and we are all entitled to voice our opinions freely, are we not? Why do some people feel that manners are not required here?


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

I am Spanish and I am buying a house. I am spending hours on end looking for one. Researching you might call it. I end up with headaches every day, it is stressing me out. 

I am looking for houses around my area and 3 miles ratio. I know what I want and where I want to live. I arrived to this point by renting first for 3 years, now I am ready and I know which area I want to end up living in.

I go and view houses most days, sometimes 3 or 4 per day. I talk to the 'Urbanismo' Department at the Council. I talk to solicitors, I talk to Iberdrola, Movistar, Water companies, I talk to neighbours and friends in the area. 

Then I go back to the internet and find catastros, and all paperwork regarding the house I have just seen (if I like the house, of course)... and blah, blah, blah. 

I do all this in Spanish, as it is my mother tongue and still is a lot of hard work. So, I can't imagine doing it in a language that is not yours. 

I am still no wiser after all this time, I am not looking for the perfect house at all, as it doesn't exist but I do all in my power to find the right house NOW I KNOW where I want to live. 

So, it does no matter how much research you do 'online' from the UK, USA or AUSTRALIA. I live 2 miles away from the area I want to live and no matter how good and perfect the house might be, there is always some flaws, obviously the EState Agents won't tell you the 'bad' things about the house you are viewing, you have to go out and talk to people to find those things.

I don't care if people rent or buy, that's their choice. But doing lots of research from another country won't help much when buying a house. 

Sometimes I do order T-shirts or shorts online and when they arrive, they don't fit. Lol!

UPDATE: Oops! I have been shown houses that usually get flooded twice a year (Estate Agents didn't mention this). Seen houses that have been burgled many times (Estate agents didn't mention this), I've seen houses right in the middle of very conflictive neighbours that always make sure the new arrivals are not welcomed, I seen houses that were not legals, etc. I have found all these things after talking to lots of people in the area and in the right departments. THESE things you won't find them ONLINE, no matter how much RESEARCH you do. 

Sorry for my Enlgish!


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "brigade" because, apart from the militaristic connection, also means a "group of like minded people", e.g. the Boys' Brigade, Girls Life Brigade, the 'rent first brigade', etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should check out the meaning of "bla, bla, bla" (and I don't mean the song).
It is used to indicate that what the other person is saying is of no interest to you, in other words "rubbish".... that is insulting.

As to your final word,
The OP is asking for advice, and that is what is being given. Some think that by taking the financial risk of being stuck in a place, where you wind up not being happy, is not a good idea, and it is prudent to rent in that area first (especially with the cultural differences involved, as in Spain).
Others think that taking that financial risk (jumping in feet first) is OK.
Advice is advice, it is up to the OP to decide if taking that financial risk is worth it!
As to your interpretation, that by renting we are saying that the OP is in less than full comand of her/his senses. Well that, and the "bla, bla, bla"business is just your way of thinking, and I leave that to others to come to their own conclusions about your remarks.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

as always it is different horses for different courses, all of us have our own experiences,we were all set to move to mojacar from Australia beginning of may, we were visiting friends in southern Bavaria,and a local estate agent managing german owned Spanish properties , he gave us details of mojacar properties properties to look at which we promptly visited and made a great choice ,tomorrow we are hoping to buy a summer house here in Bavaria,and rent a property in mojacar playa property inwinter and the capital that we have left will be earning interest,also we will be able to escape the paperwork and registration difficulties, we are happy with our choice, and when we no longer medically able mov back and to, thee is always queensland.


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## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

Hi all this is blue harvey I would like to apologise if I have upset anyone it was not my intention to do so


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

blue harvey said:


> Hi all this is blue harvey I would like to apologise if I have upset anyone it was not my intention to do so



I dont think you have lol!!!! We like a bit of controversy :bolt:

Jo xxx


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

Nignoy said:


> as always it is different horses for different courses, all of us have our own experiences,we were all set to move to mojacar from Australia beginning of may, we were visiting friends in southern Bavaria,and a local estate agent managing german owned Spanish properties , he gave us details of mojacar properties properties to look at which we promptly visited and made a great choice ,tomorrow we are hoping to buy a summer house here in Bavaria,and rent a property in mojacar playa property inwinter and the capital that we have left will be earning interest,also we will be able to escape the paperwork and registration difficulties, we are happy with our choice, and when we no longer medically able mov back and to, thee is always queensland.


Oz.......Wonna be America
Yep, been there! Spent many months in Queensland (don't forget your waterwings) & N.S.Wales (don't forget you fire extinguisher) :wink::wink::wink:


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

blue harvey said:


> Hi all this is blue harvey I would like to apologise if I have upset anyone it was not my intention to do so


Warringtonians are used to controversy!! especially if you come like I do from Dallam


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## buble (Apr 29, 2011)

blue harvey said:


> Hi all this is blue harvey I would like to apologise if I have upset anyone it was not my intention to do so


PLEASE! PLEASE! don't be bothered about it. It's what forums are about  We love it!

John.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Buble, Amigo.

Chill. Pill.



buble said:


> You should check out the meaning of "bla, bla, bla" (and I don't mean the song).
> It is used to indicate that what the other person is saying is of no interest to you, in other words "rubbish".... that is insulting.
> 
> As to your final word,
> ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> Especially when they are relatively newbies and don't actually live here.
> 
> It would be interesting to know whether they wouldn't follow the "*MUST *rent first" policy if they were moving to somewhere in the UK.


In the UK, you would *know* how the buying system works, you would *know* the rules, you would chose your own solicitor, you would have searches, surveys done, you would go and look at the place and area a good few times, if you were moving locally you would *know* the good/bad/quiet/loud/dangerous areas are. If out of area, you would be able to find out with some ease - and you would, you wouldnt ever be in a different country from your love ones and friends, so missing them may not be quite as bad.

And actually in a falling market, many people move within England into rented prior to buying again. My friend did actually. She and her family moved to Newcastle a couple of years ago into rented for this very reason. They have now just bought a place

But Baldi, no one is saying "*MUST*" - its an opinion thats all

Jo xxx


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## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

*Warrington*



Nignoy said:


> Warringtonians are used to controversy!! especially if you come like I do from Dallam


Hi nignoy we are in gt sankey where are you in spain
Brian


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

blue harvey said:


> Hi nignoy we are in gt sankey where are you in spain
> Brian


Hi ,We are still in Germany at the moment,have got to be in uk next month before we carry on to spain, should be at the fiddlers ferry pub between the 16 and 25th of june, if you fancy a pint, we are moving to mojacar playa in spain, john:fingerscrossed:


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## blue harvey (Aug 30, 2012)

*Nignoy*



Nignoy said:


> Hi ,We are still in Germany at the moment,have got to be in uk next month before we carry on to spain, should be at the fiddlers ferry pub between the 16 and 25th of june, if you fancy a pint, we are moving to mojacar playa in spain, john:fingerscrossed:


Hi john we may be in spain then but give me a day you will be at the ferry and I will do my best to be there, we are hoping to move.to the mojacar area as well 
.
Cheers Brian.


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## Taz66 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm buying but stuck on a uk solicitor, looked at Kolbalt but the feedback on some sites are rubbish any good names would be welcomed


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I've owned property all my life, since the age of twenty-five. Property to live in, property I've rented to tenants, in the UK and overseas as well as commercial properties.
Sold the lot in 2005/6 just before the crash.
Since then I've lived in Prague, three years, now in Spain. We intended to move on to France but like it here so we're staying.
We rent. We rent a house we could never afford to buy as we did in Prague. We have paid enough in rent in the past nine years to buy a large villa but you know what? We don't care. We don't want to be property owners any more. My son and his wife are well- offand don't need an inheritance so we're spending the lot and hope to die almost penniless. We have kept all our furniture etc and it's accompanied us around Europe.
We can do what we like with the house, we have repainted, pictures eveywhere. We have a very nice Austrian landlord, have just driven him to the airport after one of his twice- yearly visits.
If we'd bought in Prague we would probably be stuck in a place we came to hate. The first place we rented in Spain didn't suit. So we moved. In three years or so we'll move from this village into town.

One size does not fit all.


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