# Proof of defacto relationship



## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm asking this question on behalf of a friend. She put the question to me and I must admit, I don't have an answer for her - i've run out of ideas!

My friend lives in Dubai and she is intending to apply for a state sponsored 176 visa. She currently lives with her fiance and is intending to include him as a dependent on her visa. In any other country, they would have joint bank accounts, bills coming to the same address, tenancy agreement in joint names, etc that could all be used as proof of an ongoing and genuine relationship.

The dilemma she has is:

1. Tenancy agreements in UAE can only be in one name - in this case her name. As they are not married, they are not supposed to be living together in any case and if they are caught, they will both be jailed and then deported.

2. There is no postal delivery to home addresses. Everyone receives their mail through their employer's mail box and since they work for different companies, their mail goes to different places (I also very much doubt that a po box is acceptable as a proof of address).

3. Unless you're married, there is no need for a joint account and trying to get one will invite a lot of unwanted questions and a high chance of an unwanted brush with the law (which should be avoided at all costs!).

So, million dollar question, what can she provide as proof of her relationship? So far, she has an itinerary for a holiday they intend to take next month and photos of them together but not much else. I've also suggested statutory declarations but the agent she is dealing with has told her that this is not enough.

It's going on 5 years since they've been together and having known them personally for 3 years, I know that their relationship is genuine,, so there is a reluctance for them to apply for separate visas and fork out the extra cash.

So, if you have been in a similar situation and managed to find a solution, please share your story.

Thanks in advance.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

the bank has addresses of the account holder right? cant that work as well, what about boarding passes or flight details of them traveling together for holidays, it does seem difficult


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Hi Anj, thanks for your input. Addresses are recorded as a po box number in the UAE - physical addresses are never recorded as mail cannot be delivered right to the door, so unfortunately, she can't use any bills/ mail for proof of address.

She will have the boarding pass, holiday itinerary, photos, etc but her agent does not seem to think that this will be enough to satisfy immigration requirements. 
I think her choices are rather limited and it looks like she'l either have to tie the knot or he'll have to sort out his own visa - far from ideal but I guess it depends on how much he wants to migrate.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

in india and around this is normal, there is NO live in culture, a few brave ones do but they do not count in majority , i think if one gives an affidavit or a stat dec stating the reason for not having any proof for teh said reason they will consider, after all everyone knows about the no live in rule in UAE, it can be supported by affidavits from friends, relatives and neighbors, i am sure they know these guys are living together without being married along with a lot of photographs.


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## adrian_jeremiah (Feb 3, 2011)

*Are they Christians?*

Hi Maz,

 You probably know me by now. I am based in Dubai as well. Are your friends christians? I'll tell you why. Generally when you get engaged and if it is blessed by a priest/church then your friends can request a letter from the church stating that they are engaged. This is legal because it does not talk about staying with each other. I presume this might work.

Let me know. Meanwhile, let me think about any other ideas.

Regards,
Adrian


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks Anj - I did tell her that she would have to do a statutory declaration, which she has discussed with the agent. The agent is still requesting further proof. I have told my friend that as her agent is actually here in Australia (same agent I'm using), it may be a case of patiently explaining the Muslim culture to her as unfortunately, if she is not used to this kind of culture, she cannot be expected to understand. My friend is slightly on the impatient side as she is eager to move so I'm not sure that she is even explaining the situation that clearly to the agent.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Hi Adrian

Thanks for your input. My friend is a Christian but her fiance is not and unfortunately in the Catholic faith, the priest will not entertain any such request unless both parties are Roman Catholics and importantly attend mass every week.

The other issue is that whilst my friend is more than ready to settle down, her fiance does not seem as willing. He did come up with a story about his culture and the implications of marrying someone from another culture (he is Arab, whilst she is Indian), which frankly I do not understand, so as of the last time I broached that subject with them, he was not ready to take the next step.

I believe that you can also go down to the courts and do a quickie wedding but so far, he has not shown any interest in doing that, for whatever reason.

In any case, I have warned her that the rules will be changing next year, so she'll have to make up her mind soon as to whether they lodge a joint application or separate applications.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2011)

Hey Maz,

This should be right up _shel's alley. I remember she said that a good agent can lodge a solid case for the situation where cultural restrictions prevent people from living together. So you need to contact her and ask which agent to use. Good luck!!!


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## Artemisa (Aug 31, 2010)

Everything I've learnt from defacto relatioships is here:
Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 35. One-Year Relationship Requirement

Well, of course they are against the law and this complicates a little bit. Of course, photos, trips together, stats declaration from them AND family AND friends could be ok. 

I think they should make a letter explaining their situation and upload it as well. I would do that.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2011)

On my BB right now but later when I get on the PC I will point you in the right direction. To posts where others have faced similar and to an agent, if you can pay for one, has successfully got visas for couples in such circumstances.

It can be done, DIAC do not expect you to break laws or religous customs for the sake of a visa and are actually culturally aware to such situations.

Until later.... )


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

_shel said:


> On my BB right now but later when I get on the PC I will point you in the right direction. To posts where others have faced similar and to an agent, if you can pay for one, has successfully got visas for couples in such circumstances.
> 
> It can be done, DIAC do not expect you to break laws or religous customs for the sake of a visa and are actually culturally aware to such situations.
> 
> Until later.... )


Thanks Shel. Any info you can provide will be much appreciated.

I was also quite surprised that the agent told her that it could not be done, particularly as it is a well known fact that if you live together 'illegally' in the Middle East, you'll just be thrown in jail.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Artemisa said:


> Everything I've learnt from defacto relatioships is here:
> Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 35. One-Year Relationship Requirement
> 
> Well, of course they are against the law and this complicates a little bit. Of course, photos, trips together, stats declaration from them AND family AND friends could be ok.
> ...


Thank you, I'll direct her to the link. She's not very hopeful at the moment as the agent came back this morning and told her that it is unlikely that her fiancé's visa would be approved and she obviously does not want to jeopardise her own chances if there is another way for him to get to Oz.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

leptokurtic said:


> Hey Maz,
> 
> This should be right up _shel's alley. I remember she said that a good agent can lodge a solid case for the situation where cultural restrictions prevent people from living together. So you need to contact her and ask which agent to use. Good luck!!!


Thank you


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

Here are the links as promised. ps to the mods sorry for linking to another forum but it is something that would help people! 

First things first there is no 'living together requirement' the requirement is a 'one year relationship requirement' which is something else entirely! 

IF you are from a western country and NOT a member of a culture or religion that forbids it then DIAC assume that you should or would be living together. But it is not a legal requirement to get the visa. 
DIAC may ask some people for this evidence but that would be people from the UK, USA etc. NOT if you are from one of the many countries where it is illegal, culturally wrong or if your religion forbids it. Either way they can not refuse you a visa on those grounds as its not a legal requirement! 

What you have to prove is a 1 year relationship. Which can be proved many ways, statutory declarations, joint interests ie you are both paid up members of the same clubs, you've traveled together, maybe bought things together like a car? 

DIAC suggests this...

_What evidence is considered?

It is important that a couple claiming a de facto relationship are able to provide evidence that:

they have a mutual commitment to a shared life to the exclusion of all others
the relationship between them is genuine and continuing
they have been living together or have not been living separately and apart on a permanent basis.

Some of the factors to be considered in deciding whether the partners satisfy the requirement include:

knowledge of each other's personal circumstances
financial aspects of the relationship, joint financial commitments such as real estate or other assets and sharing day-to-day household expenses
the nature of the household, including living arrangements and joint care and responsibility for any children of the relationship
the social aspects of the relationship, provided in statements (statutory declarations) by friends and acquaintances
the nature of the commitment, including duration of the relationship, how long the couple has been living together and whether they see the relationship as a long-term one._

But the point is it is a suggestion not legal guidance as the post by the agent proves. 

This is an agent, who's contact details are in the post sig, who as you can see later on down the thread was successful in getting the visa for them... 

No solution - PomsInOz Forum


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## dizzyizzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Maz25 said:


> Hi Adrian
> 
> Thanks for your input. My friend is a Christian but her fiance is not and unfortunately in the Catholic faith, the priest will not entertain any such request unless both parties are Roman Catholics and importantly attend mass every week.
> 
> ...


Hey Maz, sorry to be nosey 

but if he is not ready to settle down (in spite of the fact that they are actually ENGAGED), then why are they doing an application together? Does't make much sense to me, unless I'm missing something here :confused2: -- either he's in or he's out!! If he's being wishy washy she should go ahead and lodge her application alone and then if he wants to join her later he will need to do his own!


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Hi Shel

Thank you so much for this link and all the additional info. I've sent it to my friend and I think if Russell can help her, she might be better off engaging his services rather than that of the agent that I used. My case is simple and I don't have any dependents, so I guess I had the luxury of choosing any agent that I wanted.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

dizzyizzy said:


> Hey Maz, sorry to be nosey
> 
> but if he is not ready to settle down (in spite of the fact that they are actually ENGAGED), then why are they doing an application together? Does't make much sense to me, unless I'm missing something here :confused2: -- either he's in or he's out!! If he's being wishy washy she should go ahead and lodge her application alone and then if he wants to join her later he will need to do his own!


Izzy, I've had that conversation with her so many times but I feel that it is not my place (anymore) to interfere. I've already put my opinion to her and I am convinced that whilst he loves her, he's taking full advantage of the situation and using her as his ticket to Australia. It's now really up to her what she decides to do. 
I don't know his culture, so it's not my place again to question whether the customs he alludes to actually exist.

I would much rather that she lodged her application on her own - if he genuinely loves her, he would follow her. His occupation is on the SOL list, so he can lodge his own application. He's claims not to have any savings to lodge his application but considering he lives in the UAE, lodging an application and paying an agent will at most cost him one month's salary! And if he really wanted to save, I'm sure that he could - I stopped going out just to save money and it worked,

Personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong with two people simply choosing to live together but to never get married and I would be quite happy to do that myself but I would take great exception to someone who proposed and then started making excuses and to say the least, he would be given his marching orders (would not even bother with ultimatums - been there, done that and I did just that to my ex-fiance).


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## Artemisa (Aug 31, 2010)

It's a good experience to join foruns like this one, because we learn a lot about cultures around the globe. Until yesterday, I had no idea there are countries where a defacto is against the law. As I cannot help your friend, I'll tell my history. 

Here, a defacto relationship is highly accepted. After 2 years living together, it's automatically considered a defacto and the couple has the same rights as a married couple. The main difference is it's a little bit more complicated to prove, but anyway, the situation (married or in a defacto) is essencially the same. Nobody really cares if you are married or a defacto (excluding people who are really religious, but they are minority and only care about the wedding in church). It's pretty common to find someone who says 'marriage certificate is just a paper. It doesn't make anyone happier or any marriage longer'. 

It's both common to see people marring before living together or living together without marrying. My aunt and my uncle married (in the church) 15 after starting living together. My sister-in-law married before living together. My friend is living together with her fiancé for a year, and she is planning the wedding next year. 
But, I've discovered that, for a lot of countries (like Australia), being married is culturally different from being in a defacto, right? 

Maz25, of course, it's not your duty to decide it for her. Is she reading this thread? 
Initially I thought that they were not allowed to marry. 

But I would be very weird if my defacto, after years living together, did not *want* to marry me, giving excuses. Of course, it's my culture, but... if you love, you would like to protect (and being against the law is not a way to protect). Maybe it's a religious thing, but... it's pretty weird. So, he doesn't want to marry and doesn't want to make a application by his own? Uhn. Maybe he simple doesn't want to go down under. 

I took loooooong years before marrying. But it wasn't somthing like 'oh, we don't want to get married', it was simple procrastination (and it doesn't make any difference in life).


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

My friend is not actually reading this thread - I think she would possibly be offended by all the comments, so I've not pointed her to it and hopefully, she won't find it either.

I emailed her the link and did tell her that I think if she is looking to include her fiance on her visa, then she should be looking for more of a commitment. Based on her reply, I suspect I may have offended her slightly - she made a lot of excuses for him (which convinced me even more that he is taking full advantage of the situation) - love is seriously blind!!!, so I have decided to leave it be. It is her life after all, so very much her decision.

In Seychelles, getting married is more of a tradition. Years and years ago, people were very religious so you had to get married but society has moved on, so it's very common for people to live together without getting married, though they all eventually make it down the aisle be it decades later. You gotta try before you buy! Plus, after 6 years, you have the same rights as a married couple, so legally you're covered in any case.

Personally, I would like to think that a long term partner would eventually want to marry me but I personally feel that it is more important to be happy, so if I never got a ring, I would not be upset, as long as my partner was treating me right and I was happy. I'm not really a believer in marriage so for me, it's not that important. However, if someone proposes, I would think that they want to be married, otherwise why propose!! 

I've been engaged before and was in a similar situation where the other person did not know when he was prepared to get married, hence why I feel so strongly that someone should not propose if they are not ready to take the next step and also why marriage has lost all its appeal to me.

My issue is not so much of 'if' but rather 'when' he wants to tie the knot - I appreciate that there are other factors that may prevent him from marrying her now but surely, he must have idea of when he'll overcome these issues. Plus, the world has moved on - if you love someone, you need to be able to stand up and tell all the aunts, cousins, brothers, mother, sister, etc to butt out of your life and allow you to make the decisions that make you happy as opposed to them and their old fashioned views.

My friend is very religious so marriage is important to her, which is why I do not understand why she's just taking it lying down. They had a major bust up over the issue a few months ago and she nearly walked away but he stood his ground and in the end, she decided that she'd rather wait than push him. Don't get me wrong - her fiance is the sweetest guy ever - he waits on her hand and foot and will do anything for her. Maybe, that's the reason she does not want to push the issue.


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## Artemisa (Aug 31, 2010)

Got it. 
I think you did the right thing: first warning her and then not including her in the thread. 

So, now it's pretty clear that incluing her fiancée is possible, but would be much more difficult. The only thing we can do is to hope she makes the better decision for her (we can never tell what it's really happening in a relationship, isn't it?)


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

Artemisa said:


> Got it.
> I think you did the right thing: first warning her and then not including her in the thread.
> 
> So, now it's pretty clear that incluing her fiancée is possible, but would be much more difficult. The only thing we can do is to hope she makes the better decision for her (we can never tell what it's really happening in a relationship, isn't it?)



You're definitely right - I don't know the full story with her relationship and I'm sure the fact that they're still together means that they have some sort of understanding about their future together.

She's a really good friend, so I want her to be happy and hopefully she will get her visa.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2011)

Just for your general knowledge (you don't have to pass it on to your friend) the real 'sweetness' of a man comes out AFTER the marriage is done. I am saying this because I have listened to acquaintances actually saying things like 'Yeah well, once she's married she's stuck right??' Usually such men will turn bossy and 'manly' after marriage. So it's really, really, really important to have a full grasp of what a man's all about... Take this as the insider take on things.... (if you have pointers to share about women, what pitfalls to watch for, do pass on, thanks in advance!!!! )


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## jshara (Nov 21, 2011)

Reading through all the replies and the original post, I think the original agent was correct in saying that it will be hard to get her fiancee a visa. Its not what you know but rather what you can prove. The onus of providing all the information is on the applicant and not the immi department. Living together may be prohibited in a country or a culture, pre-marital relationships may be prohibited but that is not to say they do not occur. In the eyes of the case officer, it is what they have in front of them. If they are so keen on each other and are in a genuine relationship, the best option may be to get married and then apply.


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