# file fbar without account info



## deannw

has anyone ever filed their f bar and left the account number lines blank? and if so what did the IRS have to say about that?


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## deannw

deannw said:


> has anyone ever filed their f bar and left the account number lines blank? and if so what did the IRS have to say about that?


i also wonder if it makes any sense that all of my accounts are joint accounts with my husband and does he have a right to say he doesnt want our account numbers shared with anyone. He is a Canadian citizen and resident.


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## pwdunn

deannw said:


> has anyone ever filed their f bar and left the account number lines blank? and if so what did the IRS have to say about that?


People can check the 25 accounts or more. One website said put "Fifth Amendment" but that is admitting to a crime. Better not to file at all on Fifth Amendment grounds.


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## pwdunn

deannw said:


> i also wonder if it makes any sense that all of my accounts are joint accounts with my husband and does he have a right to say he doesnt want our account numbers shared with anyone. He is a Canadian citizen and resident.


He's your husband, he can say, "Don't share this." I don't know if he can sue you but he could divorce you, in which case you have to chose between compliance and your marriage (seriously).

That's why I'm not filing by the way. It's one thing for me to be in compliance, I don't see why I should expose my wife to the IRS. Indeed, I refuse to do that.


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## deannw

PetrosResearch said:


> He's your husband, he can say, "Don't share this." I don't know if he can sue you but he could divorce you, in which case you have to chose between compliance and your marriage (seriously).
> 
> That's why I'm not filing by the way. It's one thing for me to be in compliance, I don't see why I should expose my wife to the IRS. Indeed, I refuse to do that.


thanks petros so i guess the question is if i file an f bar without account information due to the right to privacy of my husband what recourse does the irs have


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## Guest

deannw said:


> i also wonder if it makes any sense that all of my accounts are joint accounts with my husband and does he have a right to say he doesnt want our account numbers shared with anyone. He is a Canadian citizen and resident.


Welcome to the insanity of the IRS! Of course it doesn't make any sense. Quite of a few of us here are in the same position; I would not even have to file FBARs if it were not for the requirement. FinCen issued a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on February 26, 2010. 

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2011/pdf/2011-4048.pdf


FinCEN also received comments
from individuals living abroad who
objected to the FBAR filing requirement.
*Some of these commenters were married
individuals who raised concerns that
their non-U.S. spouses did not want
information regarding joint financial
accounts to be reported to U.S.
government authorities.*
*******
Final Ruling:
With respect to the comments raised
by United States persons living abroad,
FinCEN does not believe that an
exemption is appropriate simply
because a United States person chooses
to live outside of the United States.
(this was the only comment that was sort of related; it applies more to comments that asked that countries (i.e., Canada) with strong anti-laundering rules be excluded from FBAR.

IOW, they chose not to deal with it at all. I don't know of a way around this other than to try and get your name off the accounts; some have done this and basically made themselves paupers. I cannot get my name off our joint accounts and my husband doesn't want to close everything and reopen in his name only.

It's a real conunndrum. :sad:

nobledreamer
The Isaac Brock Society | Liberty and justice for all United States persons in Canada and abroad


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## pwdunn

deannw said:


> thanks petros so i guess the question is if i file an f bar without account information due to the right to privacy of my husband what recourse does the irs have


I was trying to say what I would do. But your situation, risk tolerance, peace of mind is quite another thing. I don't know your full story. Have you been doing your 1040 returns every year? Are you an accidental american? Did you just learn you are still American after years of thinking you weren't? How much does the IRS know about your situation? Are you planning to keep your US citizenship or to renounce?


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## Peg

My situation is different too because I joined OVDI in error and with the initial letter included account details which is why I also included them on the FBARs that I sent at the time I opted out of OVDI.

As I've said before, after my last FBAR is sent I will be changing account numbers and in some cases, financial institutions.


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## Ladyhawk

Peg said:


> My situation is different too because I joined OVDI in error and with the initial letter included account details which is why I also included them on the FBARs that I sent at the time I opted out of OVDI.
> 
> As I've said before, after my last FBAR is sent I will be changing account numbers and in some cases, financial institutions.


I know this has been covered in another thread, but is there any option yet to move money somewhere that does not comply with FATCA? Changing account numbers would work for you if you renounce, but for those of us who will continue to file, they'll still have to be reported via the FBAR every year.


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## deannw

PetrosResearch said:


> I was trying to say what I would do. But your situation, risk tolerance, peace of mind is quite another thing. I don't know your full story. Have you been doing your 1040 returns every year? Are you an accidental american? Did you just learn you are still American after years of thinking you weren't? How much does the IRS know about your situation? Are you planning to keep your US citizenship or to renounce?


thanks again petro i am an american citizen and have lived in canada since marrying my canadain husband 30 years ago i have not filed 1040 since i left the us as i did not no i needed to. Now that i know i am ok with filing those and claiming the foreign earned income exemption to zero out any taxes (kinda stupid but i can do that).
the real problem as i said is giving account information to the irs


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## pwdunn

deannw said:


> thanks petros so i guess the question is if i file an f bar without account information due to the right to privacy of my husband what recourse does the irs have


The IRS will do what they can. They do not recognize the laws of Canada. If you are going to do that, it is better to not comply at all, IMHO.


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## Bevdeforges

I think this has probably been posted elsewhere in this section, but it's a worthwhile posting to read:
Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S.

This is the IRS statement to overseas Americans regarding filing requirements. It's pretty carefully worded so as not to let anyone off the hook, but there's also a fair amount of wiggle room in there regarding "intent" and the types of accounts they're actually looking for. 

They can't come out and say so, but it's strongly implied here that if you show that you are declaring the appropriate income and have no tax liability to the US, they aren't going to come down hard on minor errors or discrepancies.

On the joint accounts, I would think you could probably just put "NRA" (for Non-Resident Alien) in for the taxpayer i.d. number and then list your spouse as the "principal account holder" - which is one way of telling them that it's all handled in your home country. If you want to, you could simply list "spouse" as the principal account holder. If they want to insist on more detail than that, they'll send you a note asking for it. 

I can't vouch for this approach as I have no joint accounts with my NRA spouse, but I have had the Feds come back and ask for a taxpayer i.d. number for an non-US company I work for. I just sent them back a note saying that the company was "not a US entity and therefore has no US taxpayer i.d. number" and that was that.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Guest

Ladyhawk said:


> I know this has been covered in another thread, but is there any option yet to move money somewhere that does not comply with FATCA? Changing account numbers would work for you if you renounce, but for those of us who will continue to file, they'll still have to be reported via the FBAR every year.


Schubert had suggested local credit unions and I had mentioned the online versions of credit unions in Manitoba. While we are uncertain just yet, the organization that regulates (?) credit unions says it is not so easy as the brokerages that the cu's use do have US holdings, etc. So for now, I don't think anyone knows unless of course one wants to deal with a country that isn't complying (Australia, Japan, China....)


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