# be a business owner



## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

I am looking to move to Portugal or Italy. I am an artist, do drawing and painting, I do stained glass windows art as well. Can someone advice me if it difficult to move to Portugal and doing such a business there, I mean making my living from art especially during this time of recession.


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## nunes (Dec 27, 2012)

My dear,

I do not know Italy, but from what I'm living in Portugal, I can only wonder, chose the village of Cernache Bonjardim to live. There are some figures of culture who also chose this place inspiring to his art, see Els Smulders, or is Jason Vale Juice Oasis in google and marvel at these wonderful landscapes. The level of support to businesses this region is good for backups since it is inside and the level of cost of living for all I know from conversations with friends is the lowest in the country and europe.

As for difficulties think it will have many difficulties in establishing your company both in Portugal as Italy since both go through a difficult period.

The region that has told you very retired expats, with some money to spend who are recovering Manor Houses stained glass quite beautiful as is the tradition in Portugal. And being right in the center of the country may be easier to move to other cities.

When you can send pm I can show you more of this region or you can give me your email.

Regards


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## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

thanks nunes


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Unlike Nunes I won't push a specific place, but say there are many places in Portugal that would inspire any artist.

If you can retain a nucleus of customers from USA whilst you give yourself an opportunity to establish yourself here or in Italy then maybe, but Portugal is not the easiest or cheapest place from the Tax, Social Security costs for any start up, especially as it's becoming increasingly important to operate within the law.

It's not difficult to move here, slightly more onerous and expensive for Non EU, plenty of avenues for the sale of pieces from cafe's showings to exhibitions in Camara premises or "craft" fairs throughout Portugal.

One school of thought says if you can open a business and survive in a recession, you'll be fine, I'd say even more difficult for an artist who needs to generate a "following", client base or galleries showing his work when there's little spare cash around


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## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for information. As I can hear from news and from you too, it is not a good time to think and move to those countries. 
Even without recession, who is buying art. Usually middle class families or low income families won’t spend their money for art.
Only rich people, and usually they are not influence by bad economy.
Here in America, the same. It is too difficult for artists make his living out of art only. Usually they have two or three jobs to survive.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

I wouldn't agree you have to be rich, where not rich but have an extensive art collection it's just not all Whistlers or Picasso's


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## Dennis (Sep 29, 2008)

canoeman said:


> I wouldn't agree you have to be rich, where not rich but have an extensive art collection it's just not all Whistlers or Picasso's


Just a few Whistlers and Picassos then...


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

yup stopped counting at 5


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2013)

*Not here*

.
Compared to other parts of Europe Portugal does not have a vibrant art scene so if your only income would be from selling your pieces then it not the place to be. The main concentrations of people, Lisbon, Porto or bits of the Algarve etc. are the only places worth trying to rent space to display and sell but then you'd be competing against the locals and their lower costs (and their better networks) for a limited market. There are "street markets" which include a mix of art and antiques (and genuine Rolexes at $5) but in all seriousness you would spend more attending 5 of these a week then the money you'd take and in winter they stop. If you had access to street markets in places like Berlin, Brussels (such as Place du Jeu de Balle), Amsterdam, Barcelona, where there is a history of street selling art, then there's a lot better chance but that’s not Portugal. The cheaper parts of Portugal are not a good place to set up a business if it depends on directly selling stock, as there's no one to sell to. Even portals like E**y don't trade here, yes it can be idyllic but you'll need a private income to be a living artist here. If you need a base income of (29 euro a day) 200 euro a week and work 9 months and sell for 3 months then you'd need to take 160 euro each and every trading day (5 day's a week) and there's no way you'lll acheive that. Sorry if that sounds a bit brutal.




threase said:


> I am looking to move to Portugal or Italy. I am an artist, do drawing and painting, I do stained glass windows art as well. Can someone advice me if it difficult to move to Portugal and doing such a business there, I mean making my living from art especially during this time of recession.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Sorry but I disagree, I've found Portugal does have an "Art scene" quite how vibrant? but I have certainly found artists working in a variety of mediums and have bought quite a number of pieces from paintings, glass, ceramic, stone and metalwork, either from Galleries, Camara exhibitions, restaurants, regional "artist" artisan fairs etc.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2013)

What exactly do you disagree with? The OP asked if they can make a living in Portugal from their art. 
Are you suggesting that by selling pieces to you in some backwater of Portugal they can make enough to live on?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Thanks wasn't aware I lived in a backwater, I was disagreeing with you saying their isn't a vibrant art scene, I'd already stated my views on whether OP could make a living


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

*castros_bros*, do you feel that just because something does not already exist in one place that it would not become popular if it was introduced?

Blimey, playing safe in life, never pushing the boundaries and not being prepared to take a chance can result in a very sterile existence...what else is life all about other than the experiences and challenges that we face ?

Even when things are tough it gives me a sense of living, even if it is not a bed of roses at times!


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## erfanq (Jan 17, 2013)

threase said:


> I am looking to move to Portugal or Italy. I am an artist, do drawing and painting, I do stained glass windows art as well. Can someone advice me if it difficult to move to Portugal and doing such a business there, I mean making my living from art especially during this time of recession.


Hi Threase,

Your name contains "ease". Nothing is impossible in life. All that is required is belief in yourself. If you believe in your art, you can definitely make a living out if it. It might be difficult at first but you will find your way thru. 

All the best!


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2013)

If you have information about how/where to sell pieces in the backyard of Portugal please may I have the details? I'm in a Faculty of Arts and spend time putting pieces on display for both viewing and sale. After 30 months of Portugal I have not managed to find anywhere with a reasonable profile vis footfall/cost/ambiance for material to be displayed. There is a vast difference between a "local" artist showing works for people to appreciate and making a living. If you compare say Pineche to Brighton, both seaside towns of similar size, I can rent market space in the "art" market in Pineche but, going on the time I spent there to look at the possibilities, I would be unlikely to make enough to pay the rent of the 12 m2 pitch (I think it was 53 euro a day). However, in Brighton, with its vibrant art scene, I can have space in several galleries where they display for 'sale on commission' or even put items in one of the auctions. I sent 12 pieces for disposal at auction in December and all went for between 30 and 50 pounds which is possible over there in the UK but impossible here in Portugal. As an artist if you cannot sell your pieces then you cannot make money. I encourage you to set up galleries or art festivals to bring in enough people to support a vibrant and selfsustaining art community, in fact I'd happily supply a dozen pieces from a Cuban artist we are trying to support for you to display and sell, just give me the details.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

As I'm living in the backyard of Portugal I'm obviously not qualified to help you, and also I'm a buyer rather than a promoter, so costs of venues don't concern me unless it affects the price.

I've visited many "art " shows displays whatever you like to call them in Camara exhibition and tourist centers, that often have Galleries displaying local artists work, specific craft, artisan, artists fairs that just about every Camara will hold yearly, or major exhibitions by Portuguese artists in Regional centers, even shopping centers, then you find little galleries or artists tucked away in side streets, or for sale in cafes and restaurants and my local framers will have various displays through the year.

Don't see that you can compare somewhere like Brighton with Peniche or saying Portugal doesn't have a vibrant art scene, as Portuguese taste is different and I would say what and how they buy is also totally different.

I'm more than pleased with the "art" I've bought here and have 1st refusal on new works by a couple of artists and a ceramic artist I really like, who is currently working on a commission for me. I've also bought fused art work, no not the flower holders and had a stained glass window made to design so there's little shortage of talent here


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## freebird (Feb 1, 2013)

You have Cuban art? How? Where? what artists? Why called Castros?



castros_bro said:


> If you have information about how/where to sell pieces in the backyard of Portugal please may I have the details? I'm in a Faculty of Arts and spend time putting pieces on display for both viewing and sale. After 30 months of Portugal I have not managed to find anywhere with a reasonable profile vis footfall/cost/ambiance for material to be displayed. There is a vast difference between a "local" artist showing works for people to appreciate and making a living. If you compare say Pineche to Brighton, both seaside towns of similar size, I can rent market space in the "art" market in Pineche but, going on the time I spent there to look at the possibilities, I would be unlikely to make enough to pay the rent of the 12 m2 pitch (I think it was 53 euro a day). However, in Brighton, with its vibrant art scene, I can have space in several galleries where they display for 'sale on commission' or even put items in one of the auctions. I sent 12 pieces for disposal at auction in December and all went for between 30 and 50 pounds which is possible over there in the UK but impossible here in Portugal. As an artist if you cannot sell your pieces then you cannot make money. I encourage you to set up galleries or art festivals to bring in enough people to support a vibrant and selfsustaining art community, in fact I'd happily supply a dozen pieces from a Cuban artist we are trying to support for you to display and sell, just give me the details.


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## titania (Jan 3, 2013)

Stained glass windows art!!! Love it. Can't say about Portugal, since I'm not there (yet). I would think that you may have a market for these in France. Not just arty windows, but restoration work in our many churches if you are good enough may probably be sufficient to feed yourself. You may want to explore this venture in the French forum. If you decide to come to Portugal and if I am there next year, get in touch through this forum, I love stained glass windows, and doors, and tables, and art...


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## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

Thanks for everyone inputs. I think I will make first a visit this summer and stay for couple of months in those cities that are attracted with art.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2013)

*boom*

If you like your art more cutting edge than somnambulant then one of the best/few in Portugal is the 9 day long Boom Festival at Idanha-A-Nova over near the Spanish boarder, a sort of European "Burning Man". July/August but may not be on this year.


QUOTE=threase;1040364]Thanks for everyone inputs. I think I will make first a visit this summer and stay for couple of months in those cities that are attracted with art.[/QUOTE]


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## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

Most of those who post their inputs are either from US or UK origins. I heard there are thousands Americans and Britains are living in one of European countries or even South America. 
I don't know about Britains, but I know for sure about Americans because I am living here in America. What the reason of Americans moving to those European countries. America is the best country in the world, and there are so many opportunities here in America rather than those countries. I heard it is not easy for Americans to obtain residency card in Portugal, plus suffer for learning new language, but they want to be there.

What let them escaping America? Please don't feel offensive, only I would like to know, what the reason of your move since it is difficult to survive especially nowadays. For me as an artist, I found it is difficult to survive here in America while living on art only. That is why I posted this thread. 

And I saw opposite, many European countries, their own people are immigrating to US or UK to obtain good jobs and high pay wages, so it is a good reason to immigrate. It make sense.

Please don't feel any negative about this post, but I would like to know.


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## donovan (Apr 18, 2012)

Portugal is suffering from a lack of money especially the middle classes who would be you market, however if you could concentrate on church work, restoration and be prepared to travel, be on the internet you could make a living and in these difficult times that is about all you could do, but if you can survive this then when times get better and you have created a following. Portugal is not that difficult place to live, you have to have patience and an understanding that you are not in your own country. I had my own company for over 20 years follow the rules no problems, start to be to clever well I will leave that to your imagination. On the whole I found the locals were helpful and in the end became good friends. Good luck to you.


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## threase (Jan 28, 2013)

[/I had my own company for over 20 years follow the rules no problems, start to be to clever well I will leave that to your imagination. On the whole I found the locals were helpful and in the end became good friends. Good luck to you]

....................

Hello donovan

Just briefly if you don't mind to tell me on how did you start your bussiness their. Did you live for some years then decided to own a company. I am not traveling till I hear some good news about their economy. Even if I moved their, I have to live for at least one year to know people and regions. After that I will open my own bussiness.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

threase as you say yourself you have problems relying on an artists income in the States, so whatever you decide to do or where to work or relocate has some element of risk, in your profession it's not opening a business that's important it's developing contacts to make it possible to have a viable business and you won't do that from across the pond a short visit with extensive travelling across the country might be an idea


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## donovan (Apr 18, 2012)

I had been working in Portugal for some time in a completely different area which had nothing to do with the business I started. I only did it as I went sailing for a couple of years and needed some more money and I had had this business in the UK. Canoeman is right you need to see for yourself, prepare a plan and get really busy making contacts while your are here and then you can decide if it is for you. Good luck to you what ever you decide.


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