# Different options - which permit easiest to go for?



## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Hi
I hope there is somebody that can guide me on my situation. Here the facts:

Daughter (20 yrs old) born in SA, has an (expired) SA passport and a dutch passport
I moved from SA to Netherlands in 1994, dutch passport but still have SA ID book (valid?)
Have a boyfriend SA resident

What would be the best route, as my daughter and I want to move (back) to SA? Is my ID book still valid? Should I try relatives permit through my daughter, or get married (in SA) and use a spousal permit? Do I need a permit at all?

I hope someone can advise me!


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

If you have a South African passport, you won't need a permit. It sounds like you don't, and you cannot travel on an ID book. You should get hold of the SA mission nearest to you and find out if you can apply for a passport there.

Next, you can apply for a Relative's Permit, either based on your daughter, or on your Life Partner.

Hope this makes sense - let us know how it turns out.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Do you andyour daugher still have SA citizenship?
Did you retain your SA citizenship when you became Dutch citizens?


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Thank you borh for replying!
When I left SA I just "left" and didnt mention it to any office or whatever. So I still have my SA ID book, and a dutch passport (never had a SA one, even while I was living in SA). 
My daughter had a SA and Dutch passport, the SA one expired because you're only allowed 1 passport in the Netherlands.
I have been on visits to SA many times over the years. I really dont know if I'm still a SA citizen/resident, would an ID book (with ID number) ever expire?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

windmill2013 said:


> Thank you borh for replying!
> When I left SA I just "left" and didnt mention it to any office or whatever. So I still have my SA ID book, and a dutch passport (never had a SA one, even while I was living in SA).
> My daughter had a SA and Dutch passport, the SA one expired because you're only allowed 1 passport in the Netherlands.
> I have been on visits to SA many times over the years. I really dont know if I'm still a SA citizen/resident, would an ID book (with ID number) ever expire?


 You need permission to retain SA citizenship if you take up another country's citizenship, so I suppose you are no longer a South African citizen. You will be entitled to SA citizenship ( if you were born here), but then you will have to give up your Dutch citizenship.


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Hmmm
Then I'm not a SA citizen anymore I gather. I will have to do it through my daughter or boyfriend. Long way to go, judging by other posts But, if boyfriend were to come to Netherlands it would be even more difficult I think.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Johanna said:


> You need permission to retain SA citizenship if you take up another country's citizenship, so I suppose you are no longer a South African citizen. You will be entitled to SA citizenship ( if you were born here), but then you will have to give up your Dutch citizenship.


Didn't this law get ruled unconstitutional a few years back? I'm sure I read that there had been changes with regard to the whole asking permission scenario.

SA definitely allows dual citizenship, so there would be no need to give up any other citizenship.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

d123 said:


> Didn't this law get ruled unconstitutional a few years back? I'm sure I read that there had been changes with regard to the whole asking permission scenario.
> 
> SA definitely allows dual citizenship, so there would be no need to give up any other citizenship.


Yes, SA allows dual citizenship, but you need permission to retain your SA citizenship if you wish to apply for another country's citizenship. I did so in 2005.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

While there are such laws, I've come across many people who left South Africa for 10 years, obtaining other citizenships, only to return to SA and continue as if they never left.

Your best bet right now is to contact Home Affairs. A quick test might be to see what comes up when you enter your ID book number here: South African Department of Home Affairs - Verification.


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

Johanna said:


> Yes, SA allows dual citizenship, but you need permission to retain your SA citizenship if you wish to apply for another country's citizenship. I did so in 2005.


No you don't anymore. As I said, it was deemed unconstitutional.

A quick google throws up many links, for example:



> Government recently repealed section 9 of the South African Citizenship Act of 1995, which regulated the use of the citizenship or nationality of another country by a major South African who has dual citizenship.
> 
> *In essence, the act repealed the provision which allowed the Minister of Home Affairs to deprive a citizen of his or her citizenship for having used the citizenship of a foreign country*. Consequently, the previous requirement for exemptions or letters of permission from the Minister to make use of a foreign passport has now been terminated. The issue of deprivation of citizenship was inconsistent with the Constitutional right to citizenship.


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Thank you all for your answers.
I typed in my ID number in the link, and it said "alive". Does that mean that I'm still a SA citizen? I'm really confused now by all the answers.
Maybe I should contact home affairs here, see what they have to say. It would be wonderful if I was still a SA citizen though!


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

windmill2013 said:


> Thank you all for your answers.
> I typed in my ID number in the link, and it said "alive". Does that mean that I'm still a SA citizen? I'm really confused now by all the answers.
> Maybe I should contact home affairs here, see what they have to say. It would be wonderful if I was still a SA citizen though!


I would suggest trying to get advice from HA in SA, either by writing to them or having someone act on your behalf in SA. Consular staff are well known for their ignorance and unprofessionalism, odds are, any advice from them (if you can actually get any) might then be found to be false on arrival.


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Maybe there is a little hope for me...
I googled SA ID, enden up in legal City where you type in your ID nr, and it says female, dob etc all correct, and at South African Citizen: Yes
Or is this false hope?


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

windmill2013 said:


> Maybe there is a little hope for me...
> I googled SA ID, enden up in legal City where you type in your ID nr, and it says female, dob etc all correct, and at South African Citizen: Yes
> Or is this false hope?


Put the link up, it's difficult to comment without knowing exactly what the page refers to (and its veracity).


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Legal City :: South African ID Number Check

I have tried 2 others also, they also say I'm a SA citizen...


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## d123 (May 29, 2009)

windmill2013 said:


> Legal City :: South African ID Number Check
> 
> I have tried 2 others also, they also say I'm a SA citizen...


While it does seem to work and can tell a real ID number from a made up one I am hesitant to believe it is an up to date or officially linked service.

This disclaimer for instance:



> Important Notice:
> This tool only checks if an ID number appears to be authentic. It does do not check whether the number is valid or has actually been assigned to an individual. You may use our ID Verification service to conduct this search.


I suspect it just knows the algorithm to determine DOB, citizenship and gender from the number without actually a live check.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

d123 said:


> No you don't anymore. As I said, it was deemed unconstitutional.
> 
> A quick google throws up many links, for example:


Thanks 123 !


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

However, read the following:

However, a South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship unless they apply for, and receive permission to retain their South African citizenship before acquiring the citizenship of another country.[1]


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

South African nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jensmart (Apr 1, 2013)

Hi, I am in the same boat but 12 months down the line. Thankfully my ID book (which is ancient and had the old system ID number) and my birth certificate was all I needed, and they gave me a brand spanking new ID book, number and passport. If you or your daughter were born here and have never actively renounced your citizenship, then they are still valid just need renewing. If you DID renounce as my husband had to many years ago, then you can get it back easily. We have had no problems whatsoever for either of us


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## jensmart (Apr 1, 2013)

sorry me again, we have overseas citizenships and this does not affect our SA citizenship AT ALL


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

Back again. I was looking for my ID book (found it, old one with no barcode) and my daughters SA passport, and came across a permanent resident permit stamped in 1975 ( when I moved with my parents from NL to SA as 8 year old), in my name. Would this have expired?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

windmill2013 said:


> Back again. I was looking for my ID book (found it, old one with no barcode) and my daughters SA passport, and came across a permanent resident permit stamped in 1975 ( when I moved with my parents from NL to SA as 8 year old), in my name. Would this have expired?


Yes.............


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## jensmart (Apr 1, 2013)

windmill2013 said:


> Back again. I was looking for my ID book (found it, old one with no barcode) and my daughters SA passport, and came across a permanent resident permit stamped in 1975 ( when I moved with my parents from NL to SA as 8 year old), in my name. Would this have expired?



It may have but it doesn't matter  Do you have her birth certificate? That and your old ID book and your birth certificate should be all you need. believe it or not they will have you both on their system and will even have new ID numbers for you


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

You can also check ID numbers on the Home Affairs website, there is now even a mobile app for this done by a South African.


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

LegalMan said:


> You can also check ID numbers on the Home Affairs website, there is now even a mobile app for this done by a South African.


Do you have a link please - I couldn't find it  The sites that I did find where you can check your ID number said "alive" and "south african citizen: yes"
Thank you!


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## windmill2013 (Mar 29, 2013)

jensmart said:


> It may have but it doesn't matter  Do you have her birth certificate? That and your old ID book and your birth certificate should be all you need. believe it or not they will have you both on their system and will even have new ID numbers for you


I have daughters birth certificate, legalised and with an "appostille" (or something like that). I was born in the Netherlands and have a dutch birth certificate...


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## jensmart (Apr 1, 2013)

That's OK, as long as you have your ID book and birth certificate then that should be fine  Do you have a SA Embassy that you have access to? I would pop in and get the ball rolling on your new documents, and it should be straight forward. Can you ring them to see what else you need to take?


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

*You still lose your citizenship*

In spite og the change in law, you still lose your citizenship if you gain citizenship of another country after October 1995 without applying to RSA for dual citizenship. You do retain the right of, on return, resuming RSA citizenship, but this process can take 6 months to 1 year and you have to prove residency during this period. What this means is that your entry will still have to be on a visa (after losing your citizenship) while you waait for the resumption of citizenship to be processed. I wish to return and I am currently in that position. I gained a foreign passport in 1997, unaware of the requirement to gain persmission for dual citizenship and I now have to go through the whole process.
What this means in reallity is that you have to move into a property in RSA where you get utility bills (proof of residence) while you apply for resumption of citizenship. I have not quite worked out what requirements or which visa will be most appropriate during this stage, but it might pose financial/work requirements as the wait period is so long.


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