# Surinder Singh/EEA Family permit



## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this website so apologies if this thread is in the wrong place.

I am a British citizen and moved to Spain in September 2013 and have been awaiting the arrival of my wife (She's now coming in May). She is coming with my son who holds a British passport and she is from Laos. She'll be traveling on a Schengen visa issued by the German embassy on behalf of Spain in Laos as there is no Spanish embassy in Laos. I am fully aware of the new UKBA rules regarding the issue of an EEA family permit for Surinder Singh cases other than one part. I would like to return to the UK as I miss my family and have been offered a job there.

I'm sure I fulfill all the criteria of the UKBA, having lived in Spain for over 6 months (although there is not limit set by the UKBA) playing for a local football team, paying taxes, full time job, rental agreement in both our names, learning Spanish, bank account, etc, etc.

My biggest issue is that the UKBA state that my wife should have been living with me prior to returning to the UK. She will be, however what is the timescale for this requirement. Does it matter if I lived in Spain for 8 months before she came and then we applied for the Family permit a couple of weeks after her arrival? Technically she would been living with me regardless of the length of time.

Please can someone help.


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Sit down.
As a British subject, you can no longer, I understand, apply for an EEA permit for your wife.
https://www.gov.uk/family-permit

You will have to arrive at the UK border by land (well, sea!) (literally, as your wife could not legally board a UK bound plane) with every possible piece of paper and you "apply" to be admitted - the test is now, as you may know, whether you made (Spain) your "centre of life" .. things like whether you have a home, bank account etc in the UK will count against you. 
Exchanging your UK driving licence for a Spanish one seems to be a smart move, too.

So far as I can see, they make no "rules" on how long your wife is with you, so long as she does actually reside with you in (Spain) and that you can prove that (boarding card stubs / passport entries).

Frankly, it's getting harder all the time .. which is why my (Russian) wife and I are staying in Spain!

I'll try and help further if I can, of course!

Alun


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi Alun,

Thanks for your response. I was not aware of this and under what grounds can I not apply. As far as I was aware, the EU Directive has remained the same however the UK border agency have stipulated new conditions.

Please could you clarify where you heard this?

Cheers
Brad


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

The UK does not comply with the EU directive, sadly, and the EU are in the process of taking the UK to the European Court.

However, this has been going on already for ages, the UK has no intention of complying and would appeal against any ruling.

I spoke with Solvit only last week (my wife now has full EU residency, but Gibraltar, wrongly, refused her entry - we were even married there!), who are wringing their hands in despair at the situation.

(We immediately returned to the Gib border and got an apology and were admitted .. I was about to get legal with them!).

However, we could only go to the UK in the way I describe above - even for business trips, let alone to live there.

By all means call Solvit (who are wonderful at ensuring EU citizens (and, by extension, family members) get their full EU rights), but they cannot force a Government to comply with EU rules (even if that country agreed to those rules almost 40 years ago!).

It's also worth considering getting your wife a residency card in Spain as further proof, incidentally. This is, as with all things here, convoluted, but automatic .. it just takes time! It's definitely worth while getting a lawyer to book appointments, fill in forms etc, but gets her Health care, EHIC card etc and is further "centre of life" proof.

It's a crazy situation where if you were, say, Spanish, you and your wife can enter the UK with an EEA easily, but if you're British, you can't. 

SOLVIT - welcome screen - European Commission

Alun


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

This makes no sense though because I'm planning on doing it through the Surinder Singh route. Have you heard of this?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Brad4283 said:


> This makes no sense though because I'm planning on doing it through the Surinder Singh route. Have you heard of this?


:welcome:

I've moved this to 'Britain' for you since that's your final destination

there are lots of discussions here about that route - I'm sure someone here can advise you

if you have any questions about getting your wife's residency in Spain sorted out, come back & ask on the Spain forum


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Yes, I came to Spain specifically to use that "rule" and return with my bride to the UK.

Here's some notes on the latest position (i.e. at last month)

*SNIPPED BY MODERATOR*

e.g " It is clear that the UK will have to amend the regulations, which are incompatible with EU law. That may take many months or even years ..." etc

This Freedom Of Information request is frankly scarey, too:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/foi_request_for_definition_of_ce#incoming-474065

To all intents and purposes, Surinder Singh is over - you must prove your "centre of life" has changed People have been refused for, for example, keeping a council house in the UK.

I know that these aren't the responses you were expecting and our hearts go out to you. We had exactly the same situation and were apart for a year.

Alun


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Alun is incorrect. Of course you can apply for an EEA Family permit. Whether your application will be successful is another story. I'm not up to speed on EEA matters but I would think that to be successful in Surinder Singh you would have to be living in another EU country as a family. Jrge, our EEA expert can better advise you however he is on the West Coast of Canada and travels quite a bit so you may have to be patient.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi - thanks.

It says our family life must have been strengthened by living in the host country, however surely there is proof of this immediately as she has been living in Laos and I have been in Spain. I have seen my 7 month old son once because of this situation since he was born.


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

You cant apply after she arrives. You must be living together in a European country for a substantial period ie 12 months. Where you have in the UK Government words 'moved the centre of your life' to.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi Shel thanks for responding. This is where i'm confused, because it only stipulates we must have been living together. All the focus is on the EEA citizen and the period of time they have been exercising treaty rights in the host country. I'm tempted just to apply and see what happens and then appeal if it fails. It also mentions the EEA national having to have transferred the centre of their life to the host country.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,


Brad4283 said:


> Hi - thanks.
> 
> It says our family life must have been strengthened by living in the host country, however surely there is proof of this immediately as she has been living in Laos and I have been in Spain. I have seen my 7 month old son once because of this situation since he was born.


It's a good sign to had included your spouse on the tenancy agreement. Also, the fact that you have joined sport teams and have moved your life to Spain helps tremendously any further application.

However, your wife hasn't fully met the "lenght of residency" unwritten requirement. The Entry Clearance Officer (ECO) might look at her schegen visa and last date she was admitted into Spain to realize she hasn't fully lived there with you.

Whilst I don't recommend to apply for an EEA - FP right away, this will be you final decision.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

This is why i'm confused though because all the focus is on me not her and suddenly the fact that she hasn't been living with me long enough becomes an issue. Surely it's more important to show that she has been living with me for a period of time regardless of the length and also the fact I have a job offer at the end of September in the UK by which time she would have been with me for four months.


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Agreed, but they keep moving the goalposts, especially with elections coming on.


Alun


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Alun - did you say you live with your wife in Spain?


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,


Alun said:


> Agreed, but they keep moving the goalposts, especially with elections coming on.
> 
> 
> Alun


Goalposts?? Directive is pretty clear on cohabitation requirements by EU Nationals and their Non-EU family member(s) in another State. 

The only modification made to SS was to now produce evidence of centre of life. The Netherlands has done the same. 

Elections have no direct influence on this. It's the political air what becomes toxic.

Animo
(Cheers)


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Brad4283 said:


> Alun - did you say you live with your wife in Spain?


Yes.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm feling pretty gutted to be honest. She could have come to Spain at the end of Janaury and we would have been half way or even there by now  I thought by waiting until i'd saved more money and she could sort out things at her end, I was doing the right thing but in hindsight not.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

So why can't you apply for the permit? You've been living here longer than me


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Brad4283 said:


> So why can't you apply for the permit? You've been living here longer than me


I no longer wish to live in a country that refused my then wife-to-be permission to even enter 3 times already, to be honest, and which kept us apart for 11 months, whilst I was still living in the UK.

To apply again means sending in her passport, proving things that I think are irrelevant, the heartache of awaiting responses ... and I've seen elsewhere online how hard it is, with so many refusals since the "centre of life" changes on Jan 1. 

And, yes, the goalposts HAVE changed - 2 years ago, I could also have used my (entitled) Irish passport, but they changed that, then I could have used Surinder Singh and they changed that.

I'm fortunate to earn good money here, the country seems happy to have me, so we'll stay here. My UK relatives come here to visit us as we can't visit them and Spain gets all the economic benefits.

I'm still intrigued by one comment up post - this site https://www.gov.uk/family-permit does say (updated 20th March 2014) that UK citizens cannot apply for an EEA for their spouse / partner, but a poster has said I'm wrong. 

Apologies if I am wrong, but I can't see where.

None of that helps you, or thousands of others, of course, which grieves me. Like you, I had no intention of staying in Spain.

Alun


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

You can apply but the conditions are much stricter than what they used to be. You need to live with your spouse for a significant time period in an EU country. Fully integrating and participating in family and community life there and giving up life in the UK or any country you were resident in 

Gone are the days of moving to Spain or Ireland for 3 months whilst leaving your home in the UK waiting for you to move back to. Not really moving abroad but using it as a means to en end.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Alun said:


> I'm still intrigued by one comment up post - this site https://www.gov.uk/family-permit does say (updated 20th March 2014) that UK citizens cannot apply for an EEA for their spouse / partner, but a poster has said I'm wrong.


The spouse of a UK citizen living in the UK must apply for a spouse visa in order to live in the UK. An EEA family permit is not an option in this case. If the UK citizen and their family relocates to an EU country and fulfills the requirements for Surinder Singh, as Brad hopes to do, the spouse can apply for an EEA Family permit.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Hi everyone. I contacted Britteny Ferries that run an overnight service from Santander to Portsmouth and asked if my wife could travel with me without a visa. They requested a cpy of my marriage certificate and I sent this through to them. They forwarded this to the UKBA and other authorities at both ports and they have said that she is authorised to travel. Do you think this means a promising result at the the UK border?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

So you are trying to get your wife in on Code 1A stamp without EEA family permit? I don't know. She is a visa national and EEA family permit is well-nigh essential. There is no guarantee that she will be admitted by the border force in Portsmouth, and if she is denied entry, Brittany Ferries will be subject to a stiff fine. I personally doubt that Brittany Ferries are in a position to authorise her travel.


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## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi,


Brad4283 said:


> Hi everyone. I contacted Britteny Ferries that run an overnight service from Santander to Portsmouth and asked if my wife could travel with me without a visa. They requested a cpy of my marriage certificate and I sent this through to them. They forwarded this to the UKBA and other authorities at both ports and they have said that she is authorised to travel. Do you think this means a promising result at the the UK border?


It is a real long shot, but as previously indicated it's all up to you.

Good luck!

Animo
(Cheers)


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

By all means try it and let us know - that was my original advice to you.

However, I hadn't appreciated that your wife may only have been here for a very short period of time, and therefore her "centre of life", they may well argue, hasn't changed and you will be refused entry (they may say "you and your son can enter, but your wife can't").

Look at the training slides from the FOI that I sent earlier, please, and see how confident / otherwise you feel.

Brittany cannot be fined, as your wife is entitled, however obliquely, to apply for a "visa on arrival" (actually a 1A stamp, but the effect is the same) and are therefore confident that they will be able to carry you. 

If you do take this route, take every scrap of paper in 2 folders. 
Really necessary stuff in one (passports / bank statements and or pay slips / marriage docs / rental form, your new job offer etc), and everything else in another, to be produced if they get uppity (latter would include letters to your new address, skype call printouts, restaurant receipts, petrol receipts anything and everything). 

One thing that UKBA (old name, but still) do is comply with MRAX - 

"non-EU family members of EU citizens have a fundamental right (coming from the EU treaties) to travel together with their EU family members to any of the EU member states, even if they do not have the required visa. This right has been clarified and upheld in 2002 by the highest European court, the ECJ, in the case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium), and has been incorporated explicitly into Directive 2004/38/EC.
C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium)".

Their books 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27885818/UK/BorderForceOperationsManual-EEANationalsAndDependents.pdf
say:
"5.5 Procedures when no EEA family permit or residence card is held
5.5.1 Admission of family members who are unable to produce a valid passport, family permit or residence card
Border Force officers will need to assess whether or not a person qualifies for admission under the EEA Regulations in the above situations. Ports should take particular note of the guidance on those who seek admission under the extended family member provisions as dependents relatives and as family members of an EEA national with whom they have a “durable relationship” (unmarried partner); the relevant criteria in Part 8 of the Rules (excluding entry clearance) should be used to make a decision on whether or not to admit under EEA Regulations. Unlike immediate family members the EEA Regulations allow for an “extensive examination of the personal circumstances” of extended family members.
5.5.2 Seeking admission at port
Applicants at port should be treated as persons seeking admission unless reference is made to applying for a residence card. Admission will fall into one of the following:

* Produces satisfactory evidence on arrival — The person should be admitted for 6 months on a Code 1A [Ed: Code 1A apparently allows passport holder to work and get social assistance. A document from Department of Works and Pensions provides a fuzzy photo]. Complete landing card.
* Is unable to produce satisfactory evidence on arrival — The person should be given “every reasonable opportunity” to prove by other means that he is the family member of an EEA national; a person should not automatically be refused admission as a result of not being able to produce adequate evidence. As a guide within a week of arriving at port should be adequate; ports can consider refusing admission at this point, unless the situation suggests more time is needed.
* Submits an application for admission post arrival"

If the worst happens, you ask for a written reason for refusal, which they must give you. 
That instantly gets a very senior member of staff involved. ...

Alun


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It looks more and more likely that they will refuse to grant Code 1A entry for Surinder Singh cases in the absence of EEA family permit, in view of the extra requirements and verifications needed. And even if you gain entry on code 1A, you still have the major obstacle in obtaining residence card .


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Why would we have a problem with the EEA2 if we were to be given entry into the UK? I have documentary evidence of playing for a football team, photos, a letter from my employer in Spain stating I have been taking Spanish lessons, bank accounts, Spanish credit card, gym membership, participating in local quiz at local bar confirmed by the barman in a letter, registered with a doctor, have a residence card, joint one year tenancy agreement, letter from my landlord, a letter from a Spanish friend stating I have been learning Spanish with her and I have been teaching her English. Again i reiterate that the UKBA states my wife must have been living with me upon return to the UK, but doesn't stipulate a specific time frame. We also have a 7 month old son who holds a British passport so I don't know if this will have much sway with the EEA 2?


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

I agree largely with you - my only concern is that under the new "tests", your wife will not be moving her "centre of life" to Spain, as she'll only be here in Spain for such a short period.

What's the worst case scenario, you have to consider, if you arrive at Pompey and she gets refused? 
Can you return to Spain and stay here, together, longer?
I rather suspect you're running out of options and *it's worth a try*.

Take the 2 folders I mentioned and the pdf I supplied, and be prepared to politely argue - if it comes to it. 

Also, have a mobile phone with you and speak with a journalist if you are refused - speak to a UK newspaper, probably the Guardian or the Independent or the BBC news room, beforehand and tell them your story and say you will call them if you get refused. 

"The True Face Of Our Immigration Laws" is a good headline, with a family pic. (I'm a journalist, but in a different sector, so can't directly help with contacts, but any newsroom will speak with you - you're British, with a wife and British young son who can't return to your own country. Send them a pic of you together in advance. You've got a job, not the dole, and you speak the language .. and have paid tax for years there, too).

Helpful, at all?

Alun


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You have plenty of evidence that you have moved the centre of life to Spain, but your wife has very little. Living together in a non-UK EEA country is one of the requirements, and you need to show you have spent almost all your time in Spain together. So you can fail on that score.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

Maybe i'm getting confused, but where does it say my wife must have transferred the centre of her life. It simply says the EEA national must have done this. It's going to be difficult for her to prove anything because she won't be working and will be looking after my 7 month old son. I thought the requirement was for the EEA national to demonstrate they have made the transfer and my wife simply has to have been living with me.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

a) P is residing in an EEA State as a worker or self-employed person or was so residing before returning to the United Kingdom;
(b) if the family member of P is P’s spouse or civil partner, the parties are living together in the EEA State or had entered into the marriage or civil partnership and were living together in the EEA State before the British citizen returned to the United Kingdom; and
(c) the centre of P’s life has transferred to the EEA State where P resided as a worker or self-employed person.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Yes, but she hasn't spent any significant time with you in Spain? It's you who have to have moved the centre of life to Spain, but she must have lived with you in Spain for most of the time.


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## Brad4283 (Apr 27, 2014)

*Update*

Hello,

Just an update on my Surinder Singh mission. My wife received her EEA Family Permit today after only two weeks from the UKVI in Croydon. She has only lived in Spain with me for two months on a Schengen Visa and has a temporary residency number. The UKVI must have deemed my length of residency in Spain as sufficient and all other factors in our case.


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## Alun (Sep 13, 2013)

Brilliant news - well done!

Alun


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