# whole house solar system



## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

I tried to look back at previous topics but didn't see what I wanted. Is anyone experienced in a whole house solar power system? 
I have read up a bit and went shopping for parts. it is not very encouraging. 
The panels: they seem to run 3-4k for 150W panels. There are regular ones that lose output when hot, which I assume is all the time here. No real info on how to tell if the panels are kind that can run best in hot climates. For a house system of say 5kW I would need 30 panels? 
Controller/collector: simple device to link the panels output and drive it to the batteries or the inverter. Seems cheap but still a few thousand.
Inverter: device to convert to AC. Again not too bad, add say 5000 or so.
Batteries: This seems to be the problem area. While the other items are a one-time purchase for 10 to 20 years, the batteries have a much shorter life span and are the hardest to install and store. a good gel, deep cell battery costs maybe 6k. You almost need one battery per panel to get the drain you need to the inverter. The life span is 3 to 5 years.
This is running into serious money and the only way to make it cost effective is to use the solar during the day to save on costs and also charge batteries for night usage. It seems that I would need more panels to achieve this goal. the 150W panels are not good enough to allow for a small enough footprint on my roof. I know there are better panels but I don't see them being sold here.
Is there an expert out there to correct all the what I assume are misconceptions I have made?
At this point a diesel generator is looking much better since my goal is to survive a power outage and not live off the grid. I guess I am not rich enough to have a longterm and shortterm solution.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Also peak charging it only for a few hours a day. To get a true 5kw not a Chinese 5kw your system will need to be 2-3 times bigger.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

There are good info in groups of "Off griders".

One thing to think of is there are mainly two much different sun cell types. One have much higher peak, but the other have better TOTAL. Most systems for sale have the WRONG higher peak one!!! I suppouse by the higher peak SOUND better in marketing.

If being handy, the sun part can be done cheap by buying the cells cheap iin bunch and mount them into covers. But they are fragile until they have got into the covers so it isnt easy.


Gary D said:


> Also peak charging it only for a few hours a day. To get a true 5kw not a Chinese 5kw your system will need to be 2-3 times bigger.


 Yes. I dont know how much, but a if not having enough capacity to not only to cover the electriicity use need ok but have capacity enough to "clean" the batteries regularly too, then the batteries will become bad much faster. At least at the older lead type batteries not enough loading add crap at the INSIDE poles. (There is some chance to "recover" batteries some though, first try is to "overcharge" them, which help sometimes. There are some chemical treatments to but I dont know if they are worth it.)


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> There are good info in groups of "Off griders".
> 
> One thing to think of is there are mainly two much different sun cell types. One have much higher peak, but the other have better TOTAL. Most systems for sale have the WRONG higher peak one!!! I suppouse by the higher peak SOUND better in marketing.
> 
> ...


Lead acid car type batteries are not suitable for solar systems, they need to be jell type deep discharge like marine batteries.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

It really depends on many factors and here budget especially compared to more advanced countries that give tax incentives, carbon credits etc; has to be looked at. Say compared to Australia the systems here are well over twice if not 3 times the price and one has to look at ROI and recoup times etc, maintenance, replacements. Aside I suppose we all have to look at look at emissions and global warming, for me as a baby boomer (just) I am more than guilty of being a pig with polluting the world and tried to change that many years ago by going solar in Oz and purchasing more efficient vehicles etc.
I think from memory Gary D was of the same thoughts while living back in the UK.
Whether a feel good thing or a sensible investment your return on investment will take a lot longer here though I have watched the system prices come down over the last 4 or 5 years.

Whole house solar systems? Grid tied? Stand alone or a combination/hybrid? To the OP (amcan13) there are plenty of posts here for different systems and discussions but you will have to dig. Also a quick google search will give you many companies supplying varying systems and some give costs. For me, I am looking at a minimum 10 Kw system with large battery bank and grid tied for convenience, you know 2 weeks of storms etc. Costs looking like over 1M pesos, tough decision and while I procrastinate the prices are coming down. Such a big system will also cover charging an EV as well as running A/C in the bedroom overnight, running A/C in the living area through the heat of the day.
While my electricity bill is only 5K per month that is because I am a tight a#se and don't run any other A/C units (we have 4) if I don't have too. Master bedroom at least 14/15 hours a day. 
Spend a million plus pesos and we can run what we want and while maybe a 10 year ROI life would be more comfortable especially through the middle of the day.

Hey OMO but worth looking into.

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

bigpearl said:


> running A/C in the bedroom overnight, running A/C in the living area through the heat of the day.


Just my $0.02 worth 

Those window / box type a/c units are power vampires. They REALLY suck the juice ! Much better to get rid of them and invest in newer inverter type split systems. Can be aboiut 70% more energy efficient.
Then learn how to use the thermostat.
Having thing set on max cooling, will just see it run at full power constantly.
Set the temp on 22 - 24 degrees (C) and take measure to stop the outside heat from coming inside. ( curtains, shades, stop drafts, close doors. )


The question regarding solar PV is a subject within itself, and really needs some thought to determine exactly what you want to achieve within the circumstances that you find yourself in.

I have a largish solar PV system. 10 years now. never paid for power in that time, so yes, I do have a bit of knowledge in this area.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Welcome to the forum SpeedyDave and hope you enjoy and contribute more as you have done. Our 4 A/C's are split dual compressor systems, Very large Linear inverter refrigerator etc etc. Our local supplier bill is still 5K per month, occasionally 4K like this time of year but for only a couple of months. 

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Thanks Steve, looks like you are already on the way to being energy efficient.

Never heard of "dual compressor" systems, can you elaborate ?

Dual compressor refrigerators are common(ish)


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Google will be your best friend and my bad dual inverter.

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Okay cool. Can see what "dual inverter" means .

What brand / size A/C units do you run ?


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

1 x 2.5 Hp and 3 x 1 Hp units. Mostly only one in the bedroom running. Nice to see some interest.

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Thanks Steve, always keen to learn new stuff !

What brand of A/C units do you have?


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Do you have solar PV yet ?


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

All LG and so far no problems and we are absolute beachfront. No solar yet but one of the next things on the agenda now with the new roof after the last Typhoon. We are in the Philippines and have learnt what slowly slowly means.

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

I know what you mean ! Great to hear the LG's are working well.
You mentioned beach front ? can I ask where ??

We are planning on heading up there once travel restrictions are lifted ( we are in Perth)
Very easy to pick up second hand PV systems here( and cheap ) just a matter of getting them up there. and setting the inverter to 220 volt / 60 hz
This is for a "grid connected" system.

If you want to go "off grid" so no street supply / meter then things start getting expensive.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

La Union. Very far from Perth, great city BTW. If you wish to ship solar systems here then you need to do your home work and then some,,,,,, a lot. Travel restrictions? don't go there.

Cheers, Steve.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

Ok, my goal is not cost recovery. I plan to stay on the grid but want to be able to handle emergencies. The simple case is that I handle a planned outage for all day. The worse case is I deal with a long term outage from a natural disaster. 
I expect I will need to drain down the batteries once a week or so and would do a manual switch off grid.
What I am looking at is the actual footprint for these batteries, the cost and their actual lifespan. I see the batteries as the component driving up the cost. Who has actual parts, diagrams or distributors on Mindanao? I have already set an appointment with a company for a quote. I don't mind a one time million peso investment but if batteries are every five years that has to be accounted for in ROI. Also at the worse time there us less sun and that cuts the charging. I am worried about that too.
Not to mention this equipment is just sitting outside and is ripe for a five finger discount. Any recommendations on securing the equipment?


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

In all seriousness, by far the cheapest, lower maintenance solution is to just get a generator.
There are some really efficient inverter types. petrol or diesel.
Just get a decent sparky to wire up your fuse board to split the circuits into "must have" and everything else. Wire in change over switch that will provide generator power to the "must have" circuits.
(fridge, split system A/C, ceiling fans, some lights) 
Jobs done.
Cheap, simple and effective.


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## HondaGuy (Aug 6, 2012)

If you search on Youtube for Retirecheapjc, he's been doing a video series the past few months of a small house with a solar system in Thailand. He has a couple of panels and batteries and apparently is enough to power his A/C at night, water pump, washing machine, etc.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

SpeedyDave said:


> In all seriousness, by far the cheapest, lower maintenance solution is to just get a generator.
> There are some really efficient inverter types. petrol or diesel.
> Just get a decent sparky to wire up your fuse board to split the circuits into "must have" and everything else. Wire in change over switch that will provide generator power to the "must have" circuits.
> (fridge, split system A/C, ceiling fans, some lights)
> ...


I've just purchased a 6.5kw generator and I'm in the process of wiring it to an auto changeover switch and building a sound box. It should run the whole house excepting the shower.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

Your advise is the same conclusion i have come to with all this information. What size tank did you get? How many hours does a tank provide at average load? I am thinking i will need a diesel drum for spare fuel too. i can rotate the dare fuel by using in my car too. I understand a diesel can run on bio fuels like used cooking oil. Any one seen that around? you mentioned a sound box. I am looking at generators in a sound box already, are you saying a second enclosure? What materials?


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

amcan13 said:


> Your advise is the same conclusion i have come to with all this information. What size tank did you get? How many hours does a tank provide at average load? I am thinking i will need a diesel drum for spare fuel too. i can rotate the dare fuel by using in my car too. I understand a diesel can run on bio fuels like used cooking oil. Any one seen that around? you mentioned a sound box. I am looking at generators in a sound box already, are you saying a second enclosure? What materials?


I have no information on your first two questions although I'm of the opinion that if you need to run for extended hours you need to go diesel. The sound box is sitting in a corner of the garage so two walls are hollow block. I've put a 10" fan through the end wall and 4 4" stainless cowls though the other wall for outlet, the exhaust will also go out here. The box is 2" timber frame with 3 \4" ply skin and lined throughout with sound absorbing foam.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

HondaGuy said:


> If you search on Youtube for Retirecheapjc, he's been doing a video series the past few months of a small house with a solar system in Thailand. He has a couple of panels and batteries and apparently is enough to power his A/C at night, water pump, washing machine, etc.


Nice. I've had a look at his setup and it seems perfect for the tiny home setup he has created.

Battery storage is 2 x 12volt / 200 Ah FLA batteries. (lead acid batteries can only be discharged by 50%) so he has 100Ah of actual storage.
I see that the batteries are connected in series, so he has 24 volts at 100Ah = 2400 Ah of battery storage.

So theoretically, he could run a 24 x 10watt LED lights for 10 hours, or a storage hot-water system with a 2400w element for 1 hour. before the batteries are technically exhausted.

Looks like he has 8 panels. He did not mention what power capacity they are.
It would be safe to assume that they are 200watt panels, so 1600 watts max power ( rarely achieved )
Solar insolation in Thailand is about 5 hrs per day on average? so 5 x 1600 = 8000 watts of energy produced, on average, each day.

He could easily double or even triple his battery storage.

So, as you can see there are 4 sides to this equation.
On the positive side, there is the inverter size . I.E how much power can it produce in kWh's to supply all the appliances in the house that are needed.
How much battery capacity = how long the inverter will run for.
Number of Solar panels = needed to replace the energy removed from the batteries each day.

The negative.
How much power does the house require.

This is not a simple subject !!!


I searched up the inverter and it looks like it would handle a DC input of 48volts, which would make it much more efficient.

And because of the solar panels, they will contribute to the day time power as well, so as long as the batteries were charged, there would be additional power available when the sun is shining.

IMO he would be better served to insulate and close up the house and run the A/C during the day to get the house cool, then maybe just use a fan at night.

In a suburban domestic sense, if you had the roof space (and the money) you would have as many solar PV panels as you could fit onto the roof, have the biggest grid tied inverter (sized to how many panels there are ) and use the grid as your "storage battery"
i.e. pump the power into the grid (ad get paid the credit ) during the day, and then draw what power you need (pay for) at night.

If you are really worried about brown out / black out, then the cheapest easiest way is the just get a changeover switch and a generator, because in reality, how often does the power go out and for how long ??


As you can see, the actual "mechanics" of this subject is quite detailed and unique to each individuals circumstances and desires. One size does not fit all !!

It is a result driven exercise, and the first step is to decide what result you want.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Not sure if you guys will be able to see this local advert.
A complete 10 Kw off-grid solar setup. $31,000 AUD
This would pretty much run a BIG house A/C's fridges, hot water, the lot......... or a small village.









Free local classified ads


Find Building Materials ads. Buy and sell almost anything on Gumtree classifieds.




www.gumtree.com.au





The guy advertising has a heap of solar, battery and off-grid stuff.

He has a UPS which would be perfect for fridge etc for about $3K AUD








Free local classified ads


Find Other Electronics & Computers ads. Buy and sell almost anything on Gumtree classifieds.




www.gumtree.com.au





Like I said, lots and lots of options. The hard part is figuring out what you want/need and how you want to achieve it.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

SpeedyDave said:


> Not sure if you guys will be able to see this local advert.
> A complete 10 Kw off-grid solar setup. $31,000 AUD
> This would pretty much run a BIG house A/C's fridges, hot water, the lot......... or a small village.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest problem could be the possible colossal import duty.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

An other factor to think of is which WEATHER zone (= How significant the rain season is.)

My business partner has a small solar covering just light and mobil, but dont get enough electricity when its cloudy.



Gary D said:


> I think the biggest problem could be the possible colossal import duty.


 Perhaps worth checking import fees if geting things in parts and assemble in Phils instead. At vehicles it make big difference..


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Philippines has an average of 5 hours solar insolation per day . This accounts for cloudy weather, night time, etc.
Solar PV / battery sizing would take this into consideration.

As for importing ? I am trying to work that out at the moment.
Very little / confusing info on the Phils Govt. web sites. even less info for second hand gear.

Here in Perth, on the local market place web site, there is an 3.8 kW system, complete with mounting rails, switch gear, panels and inverter for $300 AUD.
The system is 10 years old so there will be about 10% degradation in the panels, but so what. 300 bucks for a PV system that would cover "most" of a westerners household power consumption is just so cheap !

If I could figure out a way of shipping these second hand systems up to the Phils, it could be a nice little earner


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

SpeedyDave said:


> Philippines has an average of 5 hours solar insolation per day . This accounts for cloudy weather, night time, etc.
> Solar PV / battery sizing would take this into consideration.


 Thars average per YEAR, I suppouse. That dont help to solve the big differences it can be between weather zones. 
E g at my business partner's location he has been almost out of power close to a week some times during this rain period.



SpeedyDave said:


> If I could figure out a way of shipping these second hand systems up to the Phils, it could be a nice little earner


 Dont be sure of that  because Phil custom to often count price for NEW even when its old things close to junk!


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Balikbayan boxes spring to mind. They don't just ship standard size boxes only.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Gary D said:


> Balikbayan boxes spring to mind. They don't just ship standard size boxes only.


 I dont know how it became in reality, but a while ago (over a year) officials announced they will check balikbayan boxes harder. 
That made some balikbayan box organicers harder at content forms have to be filled proper and if so the custom will see if it can be support or not. 

Many dont know Balikbayan boxes are to send support to Filipinos, not to transport things for foreigners. I dont know what happen if the custom find out a foreigner try to sneak in things.


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## Tiz (Jan 23, 2016)

bigpearl said:


> 1 x 2.5 Hp and 3 x 1 Hp units. Mostly only one in the bedroom running. Nice to see some interest.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


Something I found was a worth while investment was a couple of Sensibo Sky units to control the A/C.
Note: I have no affiliation with the company, but just believe they are good value. 
They give much more control over the units than just setting a thermostat.
You can set schedules using the app, that will automatically turn the a/c on or off depending on the criteria that you set.
For instance, in the bedroom we were getting some mould due to high humidity, so rather than just run the A/C all day to dry it out, I have the unit set during the day to turn on when the humidity goes above 75% and turn off again when it drops below 70%. During the night when we are sleeping it has a "feels like" setting that makes calculations based on humidity and temperature. Again, turn on when "feels like" hits 30 degrees and turn off when it drops below 29 (the actual temp will vary quite a bit during the night, especially as the humidity starts dropping around 4 am.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

I found an installer. He is using the monocrystalline panels, 200W; lithium ion batteries. I am looking at full house install, hybrid design. At least 10kW. The batteries should have at least 10K cycles which makes it able to run everyday and use power grid as backup. 
I will have to get an official estimate and look at final ROI but it is looking to be better solution since a diesel generator has a real continuous run time limit and solar does not. 
I need to see his numbers on the daytime power and battery charging to make sure I can run all night and all day. It seems simple to just restrict power usage in the house if batteries are low. Primary usage is two .5hp water pumps, a fridge and one aircon. The rest are lights and fans. I have solar cells to recharge cel phones already. 
I am waiting to see the price, my research on the batteries show then to be expensive. Based on the replacement time frame of ten years I expect cheaper options for panels and batteries by then. Making the next upgrade cheaper. Also I will save a lot with no monthly electric bill.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

amcan13 said:


> I found an installer. He is using the monocrystalline panels, 200W; lithium ion batteries. I am looking at full house install, hybrid design. At least 10kW. The batteries should have at least 10K cycles which makes it able to run everyday and use power grid as backup.
> I will have to get an official estimate and look at final ROI but it is looking to be better solution since a diesel generator has a real continuous run time limit and solar does not.
> I need to see his numbers on the daytime power and battery charging to make sure I can run all night and all day. It seems simple to just restrict power usage in the house if batteries are low. Primary usage is two .5hp water pumps, a fridge and one aircon. The rest are lights and fans. I have solar cells to recharge cel phones already.
> I am waiting to see the price, my research on the batteries show then to be expensive. Based on the replacement time frame of ten years I expect cheaper options for panels and batteries by then. Making the next upgrade cheaper. Also I will save a lot with no monthly electric bill.


According to Google lithium ion batteries are good for 300-500 recharge cycles and 2-3 years. Be very wary of what sellers/ installers tell you in the Philippines as once they have sold to you there's no comeback.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

That is not what I am seeing out there. I won't post the link but it includes the Telsa powerwall 2 in the discussion about this type of batteryans should last longer that the lead acid which is 3 to 5 years.
After all if EVs has to replace battery in 3 years who would buy one?


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

amcan13 said:


> That is not what I am seeing out there. I won't post the link but it includes the Telsa powerwall 2 in the discussion about this type of batteryans should last longer that the lead acid which is 3 to 5 years.
> After all if EVs has to replace battery in 3 years who would buy one?


In the Philippines a lead acid battery is good for 2-3 years.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

I like Gary D have a Honda petrol gen set but only 5Kva that we purchased after the last typhoon as there were major power outages and lasted a couple of days, (food in the freezer and fridge, the A/C overnight) not used it since but is there as a back up but honestly that is a convenience thing and the most expensive way to generate power.

I had a 5Kw grid tied solar system in Oz that only cost $3,400.00 bucks installed So 120,000 pesos equivalent here. No I'm not joking so over 3 times the price here, 3 or 4 years ago it was over 4 times the price.
My ROI in Oz was under 10 billing cycles so quarterly bills, equals 2.5 years then saving heaps. Reason? We had a very large wet edge salt water pool with 2 x 1.5 HP pumps and I timed them to run from 9am to 4pm. My electric hot water on a seperate meter, the electrician installed a bypass with timer and I set that from 11am to 3pm, only an 1800 watt element but 2 of us living there never ran out of hot water, when we had guests I would flick it over to manual. My hot water bill was around 80 bucks a quarter and the cost for the electrician was 200 bucks so in under 9 months I had my return on investment then saved more. Aside I always had an input to the grid of about 80 bucks a Quarter. Credit that came off that bill.

Honestly for me? I am thinking for the future and our children, grandchildren and those that follow, will they look back at at the past and wonder why they are faced with cleaning up the mess from their thoughtless forebears? What we leave them to sort out because most of us were pigs and took without thoughts of what we were doing, easy and cheap? The tide is turning and some of us, well me I consider it a duty to put back to into society what it gave me a decent life as well as my lineage.

Cost here yes and a 10 to 15 year ROI (if I am even around) and I er on the 15 year side with battery replacements but it has to start with individuals as most of our governments sit on big business and procrastinate.
My aim is for a system that is self sufficient for my needs including charging an electric car and running A/C at night, through the day and plowing excesses back into the system.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.
Pipe dream? Nope it's just finding a serious company here that knows what they are doing and willing to accomodate. I don't know how many emails I have sent out over the years requesting big hybrid/grid tied systems and to date not a reply, while disheartening like always here the answer will come.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Amcan13, are you out in the Provence with no grid power ?


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

No, I am in a small city and have electric service. I am just not crazy about the outages especially in the summer. It might be out of my price range but I found someone that will do a hybrid setup that will use the grid as a backup. It seems logical that by the time I need to replace the batteries a cheaper option will be available.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

amcan13 said:


> No, I am in a small city and have electric service. I am just not crazy about the outages especially in the summer. It might be out of my price range but I found someone that will do a hybrid setup that will use the grid as a backup. It seems logical that by the time I need to replace the batteries a cheaper option will be available.


Firstly, sorry if I come across a bit abrupt. Had some really bad news today and I am just over it, and the whole stinking lot of them.

I have a LOT of experience in this space and really hate seeing people waste their money or be misled by people how either don't know what they are talking about, or are trying to extract some dollars from your pocket.

I don't know you.
I have no skin in the game
I am not trying to sell you anything.
I am not trying to gain any advantage over you.
I simply feel that my knowledge in this space has some value, and I am taking the time to share it ...........


So how many power outages do you get ?
Serious question. Have you quantified it at all ? Number and duration.

What is it in your house that you NEED to have powered if the power goes out ?

Only once you have honestly answered these questions can you move on to determine exactly what it is that you want / need , and how to arrive at that.

You mentioned "use the grid as back up" , it is normally the other way around. Unless you plan to create your own power station, and have grid access for the rare time that your power station is down, but that is a really expensive way of having electric power available, as you will still need to be paying the connection fee / admin fee etc.to Meralco
So that cost will have to be added onto the "cost" of your own generated power.
You could easily be paying 3 times what you currently pay ( in real terms )

You mentioned at least a 10kW hybrid system. 
That is a MASSIVE investment for a few black outs.
Here in Aus it would cost you about $31,000 plus install. That would be over 1.2 million pesos  just to have a bit of backup power if the grid goes down

Honestly, a 5kW gen-set would be a far more economic solution.

The Philippines has net feed in legislation where the power company will credit you for any excess power that your solar PV system generates.

If you do your math right, and size your system optimumly, you can be in a situation where you pay ZERO $$ to the power company.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Happy to answer more specific questions from anyone who would like to know.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

My 2 cents worth. If you are solving a minor inconvenience solar is not the way to. If you are off grid then solar could be one of a couple solutions. In the UK I have a grid feed system, lets call it 2kw as the maximum peak I've monitored whilst it was really cooking was 1.8-1.9 kw. It usually starts in the morning at 600-800 watts and will go to 1200w - 1400w during the middle of the day. Now my system is what we call rent a roof so I don't own it or had any outlay. The company that installed it and owns it get the feed in tariff for their investment and I get as much electricity as I can use whilst the sun is out. For the first few years I had an old mechanical meter which would wind backwards when feeding the grid, result, but had to be creative with the meter reading so as not have a reading lower than the previous, very easy during the summer. They eventually replaced the old meter with a modern smart meter which spoilt my fun. One of the downsides is that I'm not allowed any form of storage.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

Before I left the USA all the different options with buying, leasing, selling excess and batteries was taking hold. 
So when I came here it was a little disappointing to have fewer options. 
Anyways, you all make good points and anyone starting out needs to take all the advice. 
As for me sometimes there are nonfinancial considerations that make a financially less attractive solution necessary. 
I will continue with the research with the solar company and see where it ends up. My dream is a full solar solution that can run for years with an option to use the grid if my system needs to be offline. I will ignore cost constraints for now. In my old job we developed the design to specifications without cost restrictions first, then discussed cost and a possible change to requirements.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

No worries Amcan,
Sounds like you are on top of the game.
I would love to be financially in a position to be able to make more ideological decisions.
Oh well, roll of the dice.

But TBH, If I was in that position, for ideological reasons I would tell meralco to come get their meter !!


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Amcan has very valid points, similar to my thoughts and TBH the last thing I would get rid of would be the grid. Selling your excess back helps pay for the investment. Lots of convenience also.
Systems and costs are very different here compared to western countries especially sourcing and communicating with many of the fools here.
Accomplishing what I would like has been met with frustration and brick walls, don't worry I have thought about importing to get what I want but that hurdle and extra costs are too high.
Maybe I'm a romantic or my ideals are not for all but I have a good idea what I want but it seems I am in the wrong country to achieve without copious amounts of drama and headaches.

As always here time will tell.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

amcan13 said:


> As for me sometimes there are nonfinancial considerations that make a financially less attractive solution necessary.


 Yes. Perhaps it has changed enough to become an other conclusion now by prices at the parts has droped much, but earlier it wasnt interesting in *investment *point of view. (In Sweden the ROI (=return of investment) was 20 years back then *with *high subsidities.) 
So perhaps solar for convinience in Phils because of brownouts but I would other alternatives first if they can be better. (I think mainly of making power of waste by it would be to not get out of power to the manufactory and there would be people there to handle it at hours when needing it. But I would like best to get WATER power. Its normaly NOT allowed in Phils from waterfalls/biger rivers without special permit by they belong to the government even if they are at your land BUT perhaps its ok to "borrow" the water from CREEKS. Creeks can make rather much energy even at rather low height distances. One DIY in USA had only 9 meters difference at a LONG distance took water upstream and led it through pipes down to the powerstation and then let the water out to the same creel again  The turbine was rather big and bought, but the rest was DIY. Others have made small ones of junk as e g a car generator with a tiny home made "water wheel" (I dont remember if gear in between) enough to generate his small need of electricity as light and mobile charging. Very simple done. He had some problem to avoid get the water clugged.)


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

bigpearl said:


> Accomplishing what I would like has been met with frustration and brick walls, don't worry I have thought about importing to get what I want but that hurdle and extra costs are too high.
> Maybe I'm a romantic or my ideals are not for all but I have a good idea what I want but it seems I am in the wrong country to achieve without copious amounts of drama and headaches.


 Yes. But cant you avoid needing contacts with officials concerning this by have the solar separated from the "public" grid?


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Good question Lunkan but my problem is not with officialdom at government level unless I decide to import, the guy up the road did that a couple of years ago and went through merry hell but got what he wanted as no one here could supply his needs.
My difficulties are with the sellers and the typical no response because my questions are too difficult for them.

As for a stand alone system, all good if you are off the grid but we have power connected. I want the convenience of shore power, sell my excess back and basically be independent when the power goes out. Run as many A/C's as I like, charge an EV, run the house and as said try to minimise my carbon footprint, some thing for all to think about if affordable.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.


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## SpeedyDave (Dec 3, 2021)

Bigpearl, 
The CAPACITY that you require to do all that you have stated, is so ambiguous that it is near impossible to decide on what size "system" you need. But it is absolutely determined by the available supply.
A typical single phase house connection is rated at 60amps. Which means that you can only draw a max of 14kW/h before you blow the main pole fuse.


A couple of things ;

Firstly, to do what you are proposing , the cost of your power will be at least 100 peso / kWh 


"run as many A/C as I like" sorry, but what ? without being silly, for an average house the power demand for A/C could be anywhere between 1kWh to 30kWh

"Charge an EV" well, how long is a piece of string ? 
Basic house hold "wall charger" are 7kWh for single phase. 11kW/h - 22kWh for 3 phase. 
Even at the lowest 7kWh charger, that is 32 AMPS, continuous draw for XXX hours !!

"Run the house" again, what when where ??? fridge, freezer, security, computers, tv's, microwave, oven, lights, washing machine, dishwasher, hair drier, = how much does your house use ?

Have you done a "max demand study " ???

So basically, if you want to replicate your grid supply with some sort of backup system, then the minumum you will need is a 14kW/h hybrid system ( one that behaves like a computer UPS )

Given that you will be paying the "foreigner tax" , no Govt. subsidies, shipping, importing, yadda yadda yadda, I would estimate at least 100K USD ( plus the cost of replacing the batteries every few years)

Plus, you would need a MASSIVE roof space for the panels. 
Plus, the Philippines only has an AVERAGE annual solar insolation of 5 hrs of (usable) sun per day, many days there will be very little, so getting enough PV energy to charge the massive battery banks that you will need will require an even bigger PV array. ( a typical 200watt panel measures 2 meters by 1 meter. grab a calculator and do the math )
A 10kW PV array would be roughly 150 square meters. due to many reasons ( angle, dust, heat degradation )


Or, you could have more realistic expectations, do the math and then decide on a system that is both economical and able to provide some of your needs some of the time.


Like I have said previously, this is not a simple subject.

Oh, and the credit you receive from "selling" your excess power into the grid is much less that the purchase price of that power (30% ? ) so you would need to export 3 times what you import to have zero power bill.

Really, like I have outlined previously, much easier and cheaper to just rely on your grid connection and have a standby generator for the odd time there is a black out. or live in a condo that has its own backup generator.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

SpeedyDave said:


> Bigpearl,
> The CAPACITY that you require to do all that you have stated, is so ambiguous that it is near impossible to decide on what size "system" you need. But it is absolutely determined by the available supply.
> A typical single phase house connection is rated at 60amps. Which means that you can only draw a max of 14kW/h before you blow the main pole fuse.
> 
> ...


Hey Dave, I do appreciate your input and thoughts.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

I have finally been able to visit the dealer/installer and gotten the info for a 10kW solar solution. i have 2 aircons, two water pumps, a fridge and lights and fans. I think I can fit in 10kW. I saw his components and they looked nice.
The proposal is:
A. 20 mono panels 405W each
B. One Deye on grid off grid converter 8 kW
C. One PSMART inverter 10kW
D. 4 LipePo4 48volt 200ah 10kW batteries

I am double checking all the details and having him verify the capacities but this setup should be able to supply 10kW to my house. i expect some less than sunny days and want capacity to get though bad days to good days. the batteries were something. they are wall units that are about 100kilos each. The software running each unit and managing the individual cells was really nice. If will interface with an app for monitoring. The batteries should provide for 3000 or more cycles. some companies are saying 5000. There is a 3 year warranty. 
After the typhoon I think looking at an off grid solution is a valid option. the city power will be the backup. I did some research on the batteries and it was impressive. As long as the operating temperature stays under 40 C the batteries should not degrade too fast.
The mono panels seem to offer the best generation ability give the weather in the Philippines. Again, over heating will lower the output. 
If it is worth the expense is a huge question but these off grid solutions are being installed in a lot of locations in the Philippines. The question is more when more people will convert and if the city power companies will encourage selling of power to bolster the power grid here.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Good info Amman, what is the cost and availability like? Is the grid buy back still 5.8 pesos Per KWh?

Cheers, Steve.


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## amcan13 (Sep 28, 2021)

There is no buy back option in my area that I know about. this seller was ordering more for a couple of projects and could start install right away. as far as I can tell the battery cost is about 200,000 peso per battery. The rest of the cost is maybe 400,000 for all the rest and installation. I did some research on Lifepo4 batteries and the price seems about right. If I move forward I will power the house 100% with the batteries and only use grid for backup.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

So the cost would be only 1.2M or I read wrong?
What is the company name if you don't mind supplying that even in PM.

Did you consult with your power supplier about grid tied solar systems and buy back tariffs?
I did a couple of years ago and it was 5.8 Pesos P/KWh. Much better than Australia.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Gary D said:


> I have no information on your first two questions although I'm of the opinion that if you need to run for extended hours you need to go diesel. The sound box is sitting in a corner of the garage so two walls are hollow block. I've put a 10" fan through the end wall and 4 4" stainless cowls though the other wall for outlet, the exhaust will also go out here. The box is 2" timber frame with 3 \4" ply skin and lined throughout with sound absorbing foam.


The finished sound box. It probably cuts the noise in half and with the garage door closed the level in the house is quite acceptable. The exhaust is going to keep the neighbors up as they won't be able to hear their roosters and dogs barking.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Gary D said:


> The exhaust is going to keep the neighbors up as they won't be able to hear their roosters and dogs barking.


I like that part. A small amount of payback.

Fred


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