# TIE and tax implications



## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

We are all aware of people living here permanently with green residencia papers but are still UK taxpayers my question is with the new cards, and therefore assuming a more centralised based ie Madrid, will the hacienda finally be able to catch those taking the best on offer in both countries.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

As far as I'm aware, if you have gained residency then you automatically become tax resident after 183 days so you pay taxes to the Spanish authorities. You should fill in the Double Taxation Agreement forms and send to HMRC to stop paying taxes in the UK. 

Steve


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## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Only in as much as the law states you should which is why I believe those already in receipt of permanency were told they didn’t have to change. Because it is assumed expats are abiding by the rules. However many of us know differently.
Majority of expats would need to engage the services of a financial person because one has to show proof on DTA to Newcastle that tax HAS BEEN paid in Spain before they will accept your account be terminated.
With old system being via paper, very localised and having different rules and regulations how would main hacienda know ? I am thinking a plastic card with a barcode is easier to check especially as due to Covid Spain needs cash injections plus different countries tax authorities now have free access to each other’s info.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Firstly there is no obligation to exchange a green residencia for a TIE, secondly I'm not aware of any part of voluntarily exchanging for a TIE which signals anything to the Hacienda that they don't already know, are you?


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## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

MataMata said:


> Firstly there is no obligation to exchange a green residencia for a TIE, secondly I'm not aware of any part of voluntarily exchanging for a TIE which signals anything to the Hacienda that they don't already know, are you?


I had already mentioned in my previous post there was no requirement to change green for a TIE card.
My query is at the moment when making a Spanish tax declaration one has verbally to give the number written on the back of the green card as well as NIE number and as presumably the new plastic card will have a bar code will it be centralised, in preference to being local to municipality haciendas, and therefore easier to check if expats are in the tax system.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Melosine said:


> I had already mentioned in my previous post there was no requirement to change green for a TIE card.
> My query is at the moment when making a Spanish tax declaration one has verbally to give the number written on the back of the green card as well as NIE number and as presumably the new plastic card will have a bar code will it be centralised, in preference to being local to municipality haciendas, and therefore easier to check if expats are in the tax system.


I've been doing my tax returns in spain for years and never had to give the support number on the back. You may have to in order to use a system like [email protected] but not for the tax return. You either access with something like [email protected] or using the digits from the year before. TIE cards don't have a bar code. Since changing to a TIE I had to update the support number in order to use thr [email protected] system but apart from that nothing has changed. 

In any case, anyone who is resident in spain should be paying taxes in spain. Either through their work with a declaration at the end of the year if obliged, or declaring worldwide income anyway if theybhave affairs outside of spain.


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## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

xicoalc said:


> I've been doing my tax returns in spain for years and never had to give the support number on the back. You may have to in order to use a system like [email protected] but not for the tax return. You either access with something like [email protected] or using the digits from the year before. TIE cards don't have a bar code. Since changing to a TIE I had to update the support number in order to use thr [email protected] system but apart from that nothing has changed.
> 
> In any case, anyone who is resident in spain should be paying taxes in spain. Either through their work with a declaration at the end of the year if obliged, or declaring worldwide income anyway if theybhave affairs outside of spain.


Not as clever so have an aesoria to do our annual tax returns so have no idea what system they use except to state that it was 3 years ago it was insisted we had to add the number on our green card. From your response it seems as is normal in Spain one method doesn’t fit all.

From the reply’s it is obvious I didn’t explain my self well in OP so will rephrase the question.

With introduction of TIE will the Spanish haciendas get their act together and know the expats who are liable to pay tax in Spain. 
Appreciate by law many SHOULD be but that isn’t the same as IS.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xicoalc said:


> I've been doing my tax returns in spain for years and never had to give the support number on the back. You may have to in order to use a system like [email protected] but not for the tax return. You either access with something like [email protected] or using the digits from the year before.


My husband and I normally complete our own Spanish income tax returns online, using the numero de referencia method rather than a digital certificate or [email protected], and we always have to enter the numero de soporte on the back of our resident certificate tarjetas. It has to be entered (prefaced by C00 or it will not work) prior to entering the figure from Casilla 525 (or whatever box number it happens to be in a particular year) from the previous year's tax return in order to obtain the numero de referencia.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> My husband and I normally complete our own Spanish income tax returns online, using the numero de referencia method rather than a digital certificate or [email protected], and we always have to enter the numero de soporte on the back of our resident certificate tarjetas. It has to be entered (prefaced by C00 or it will not work) prior to entering the figure from Casilla 525 (or whatever box number it happens to be in a particular year) from the previous year's tax return in order to obtain the numero de referencia.


Ohh i honestly never saw that. Before I had [email protected], you used to be able to do it with the NIE and a reference from the return of the previous year (can't remember what it was but a code from the last page). I do remember using the support code with the C0 prefix for things though.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

Melosine said:


> Not as clever so have an aesoria to do our annual tax returns so have no idea what system they use except to state that it was 3 years ago it was insisted we had to add the number on our green card. From your response it seems as is normal in Spain one method doesn’t fit all.
> 
> From the reply’s it is obvious I didn’t explain my self well in OP so will rephrase the question.
> 
> ...



I think the hacienda must know who is here. Just by having a bank account they know of your presence as the bank have to submit details of any interest earned each year to the hacienda. This automatically shows on a tax return. Clearly they can't check up on everyone. Is it random? Is it when they think that there may be enough owed to make it worth their while? No idea how it works. I dont see much difference between TIE and green paper for this because it is just a document??

I think those who have the most to fear are those who have been totally under the radar, not registered anywhere and have suddenly appeared in the system claiming rights under a.50 as they have lived here and settled here. Will the tax man jump on this chance to say "oh, so you've lived here years have you? Well lets have a little look", or will they let sleeping dogs lie?

Vamos a ver!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xicoalc said:


> I think the hacienda must know who is here. Just by having a bank account they know of your presence as the bank have to submit details of any interest earned each year to the hacienda. This automatically shows on a tax return. Clearly they can't check up on everyone. Is it random? Is it when they think that there may be enough owed to make it worth their while? No idea how it works. I dont see much difference between TIE and green paper for this because it is just a document.
> 
> I think those who have the most to fear are those who have been totally under the radar, not registered anywhere and have suddenly appeared in the system claiming rights under a.50 as they have lived here and settled here. Will the tax man jump on this chance to say "oh, so you've lived here years have you? Well lets have a little look", or will they let sleeping dogs lie?
> 
> Vamos a ver!


I'm sure Hacienda know who is here - we didn't have to submit tax returns (on the advice of Hacienda staff at our local office) for a few years after we moved here as we were living off capital with no income until our pensions became payable. After my husband started to receive his pension and needed to start making returns, we visited the Hacienda office with his completed Modelo 030 form. Oh, we don't need that, said the man who dealt with us. He tapped a few keys and turned his screen around and all my husband's details including his bank account number were displayed. My husband doesn't own any property in Spain so being a property owner has no bearing on whether or not Agencia Tributaria has people's details.

I did once have a British neighbour come to me wanting me to tell him what a letter he had received from Agencia Tributaria said. He owned a property nearby. The letter said that according to their records, he had owned the property since xxxxxx and asked for an explanation of why they had received neither a non-resident nor a resident tax return from him since that time (several years). So they do carry out checks, but like you I don't know whether they just select a random percentage to check up on each year or just those where some anomaly shows up.


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## Melosine (Apr 28, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> My husband and I normally complete our own Spanish income tax returns online, using the numero de referencia method rather than a digital certificate or [email protected], and we always have to enter the numero de soporte on the back of our resident certificate tarjetas. It has to be entered (prefaced by C00 or it will not work) prior to entering the figure from Casilla 525 (or whatever box number it happens to be in a particular year) from the previous year's tax return in order to obtain the numero de referencia.


Thank you Lynn R for confirming what I wrote. Until recent years regions and municipalities had their own agenda which was why my query because I feel times are changing fast and every time a new document/ card is issued there more info available.
Had a similar experience recently. Purchased a tv from a small shop out of our area and was asked my name...and hey presto..together with other particulars it came up on the screen. 
Guess they have us all under surveillance, one way or another !
Meanwhile homeowners who pay neither property or income tax here suppose taxman can wait until they reclaim their % + interest via inheritance or property sale.


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