# Taxes again...



## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

About two years ago, I did pretend that as a retired person who do not have any income in Spain, I do not have to declare and pay taxes in Spain. At that time there were quite some disagreement with this. Of course I did consult a gestor who did confirm this fact. But I finally found myself, googling" evitar doble impososicion" on the site of the Agencia Tributaria this text:

Artículo 18.
PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES
1.	Sin perjuicio de las disposiciones del artículo 19, las pensiones y otras remuneraciones similares pagadas en consideración a un empleo pasado a un residente de un Estado contratante, así como las anualidades pagadas a este residente, sólo podrán someterse a imposición en ese Estado.

This is also mentioned in the agreements about double imposition with the U.K.
Eva33


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Eva33 said:


> About two years ago, I did pretend that as a retired person who do not have any income in Spain, I do not have to declare and pay taxes in Spain. At that time there were quite some disagreement with this. Of course I did consult a gestor who did confirm this fact. But I finally found myself, googling" evitar doble impososicion" on the site of the Agencia Tributaria this text:
> 
> Artículo 18.
> PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES
> ...


Hi Eva33,
Hve you been back to the Gestor and asked for your money back?

The gestoria should be shut down if he said that a non government pansion from the UK does not need to be declared in Spain.

Xose


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Xose said:


> Hi Eva33,
> Hve you been back to the Gestor and asked for your money back?
> 
> The gestoria should be shut down if he said that a non government pansion from the UK does not need to be declared in Spain.
> ...


I never had to pay taxes in Spain, but I do have a government public pension, so I actually was also thinking that what you are writing is correct. But if you do read the text on

Agencia Tributaria - Reino Unido

I could not find anything related to government pension. But the text is very long, my Spanish also not so perfect, so maybe I did miss something. By the way I am not British, but Swiss. The agreement about double taxation seem to be the same, at least concerning pensions. I also think that many "pensionistas estranjeros" which are making an estimated 54000 or more Euros a year, would probably not stay for long in Spain if they had to pay 43% of there pension to the agencia tributaria.

My gestor is German and is here since many, many years. He must know what he is talking about.
Eva33


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I too went to a local Gestor, with my details of the pension I had been paid and the details of the U.K. tax paid on the same. He told me that he had made enquiries and that did not need to inform the tax authorities here. He did not charge me a fee.

I'm living in the Canaries, is it a case of different areas different interpretation of the rules? I read posts on here and I often wonder if I am in fact in a different country. I sometimes need to walk past the flag poles to reassure myself that I am In fact in España.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Eva33 said:


> I never had to pay taxes in Spain, but I do have a government public pension, so I actually was also thinking that what you are writing is correct. But if you do read the text on
> 
> Agencia Tributaria - Reino Unido
> 
> ...


That's a good link. Talk about overcomplicated!! Why can't they just use "Reino Unido" and "España" instead of "Estado Contratante" and "Otro Estado Contratante". I'm sure they do it just to confuse and change the interpretation as they see fit.

Any way, in the bit headed PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES, I see a fairly clear statement, once you've figuered out which estado is which.

Basically, Pensions are "Sometidas" in Spain. Next block covers government employee pensions which are not and are solely submitted in the United Kingdom UNLESS, you are resident in Spain and are a Spanish National, in which case, you still declare here even if it's a government pension. Also, a person working for the UK government in Spain, for example, who is not Spanish, and NOT SOLELY doing that work (part time teaching or whatever, I guess), would also have to declare in Spain. If ONLY doing that work, they wouldn't have to. In other words, exclusive work for the UK government and not a Spanish National, pensions from that do not have to be declared here.

Phew - hope that makes some sense!

Xose


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I too went to a local Gestor, with my details of the pension I had been paid and the details of the U.K. tax paid on the same. He told me that he had made enquiries and that did not need to inform the tax authorities here. He did not charge me a fee.
> 
> I'm living in the Canaries, is it a case of different areas different interpretation of the rules? I read posts on here and I often wonder if I am in fact in a different country. I sometimes need to walk past the flag poles to reassure myself that I am In fact in España.


I really do think that at least what is concerning Taxes, you are in the same country  I mean Spain... Double tax law is very complicated and I did hear many strange opinions opinions about it. But one thing is sure: If you pay the taxes on your pension in your country of origin, then you are not taxable in Spain. Most of the time, as in government pension, you do not have a choice, because they just take the tax before sending the money to your bank. This law does date back to 1966. Most of foreigners cannot read the law Spanish text themselves and have to go to a gestor or a lawyer and sometime they do receive wrong information and have to pay for it... In France and in the same situation, this means living from a pension (and only from a pension....) which comes from your home country, you have to fill out a tax form which comes out to 0 Euros for you to pay in France. The situation can change completely if you are working, have properties or have some financial activities in Spain. Then it is a big mess and much expenses you will have to pay for the gestor to try get things sorted out for you.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Xose said:


> That's a good link. Talk about overcomplicated!! Why can't they just use "Reino Unido" and "España" instead of "Estado Contratante" and "Otro Estado Contratante". I'm sure they do it just to confuse and change the interpretation as they see fit.
> 
> Any way, in the bit headed PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES, I see a fairly clear statement, once you've figuered out which estado is which.
> 
> ...


Hi Xose,
You were correct: There is a difference between the double tax agreement between Spain - UK and Spain - Switzerland:

Spain-UK=PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES / Artículo 18.

Sin perjuicio de las disposiciones del artículo 19, las pensiones y otras remuneraciones similares pagadas en consideración a un empleo pasado a un residente de un Estado contratante, así como las anualidades pagadas a este residente, sólo podrán someterse a imposición en ese Estado.

Spain-Switzerland= Artículo 18. PENSIONES

Sin perjuicio de las disposiciones del artículo 19, las pensiones y remuneraciones similares pagadas, en consideración a un empleo anterior, a un residente de un Estado contratante, sólo pueden someterse a imposición en este Estado.

I did miss the difference between "ese" and "este". This small difference seems to explain that why in this forum, where most of members are British, everybody thinks that only government pensions are not taxable in Spain. But this is not necessarily the case for members of other countries. Also "Articulo" 19. is not the same and create other misunderstandings between forum members. 
When I did join this forum, I did think this was a place for expats of all countries...
Eva33


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Eva33 said:


> Hi Xose,
> You were correct: There is a difference between the double tax agreement between Spain - UK and Spain - Switzerland:
> 
> Spain-UK=PENSIONES Y ANUALIDADES / Artículo 18.
> ...


Yes, it's easy to see why people get confused with these rediculous texts that even the officials find hard to interpret.

I see things much easier. Is Spain a country where you can live, get moneys, and not declare (not "NOT PAY" necessarily, that depends) but not declare?.... different thing I'm afraid and the answer is, No, Spain is not a place where you can live and not declare your "worldwide income" except under very rare circumstances - as mentioned above.

Of course, there's always "How will they ever know?"....
A card I personally would rather not play with.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Eva33 said:


> I really do think that at least what is concerning Taxes, you are in the same country  I mean Spain... Double tax law is very complicated and I did hear many strange opinions opinions about it. But one thing is sure: If you pay the taxes on your pension in your country of origin, then you are not taxable in Spain. Most of the time, as in government pension, you do not have a choice, because they just take the tax before sending the money to your bank. This law does date back to 1966. Most of foreigners cannot read the law Spanish text themselves and have to go to a gestor or a lawyer and sometime they do receive wrong information and have to pay for it... In France and in the same situation, this means living from a pension (and only from a pension....) which comes from your home country, you have to fill out a tax form which comes out to 0 Euros for you to pay in France. The situation can change completely if you are working, have properties or have some financial activities in Spain. Then it is a big mess and much expenses you will have to pay for the gestor to try get things sorted out for you.


That makes it a lot clearer, mine is a Govt. pension in the U.K., I have no Spanish income, neither do I rent property, not yet anyway,

Thanks for the info, I owe you a drink,

Hepa


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Thanks for the info, I owe you a drink,
> Hepa


Hepa I'm sorry to say that that is a benefit of kind unless all ingredients are from another country and the fabrication took place soley, including all 3rd party suppliers, but allowing for the non ECC exemption clause of 1982, outside of the a foresaid country, with the exemption of black bitter brewed no more than 5 miles from Kirkcaldy, or Moldovian bear blood beer for similar reasons. Thus if your annual income is more than two thirds of the height of lampposts in other state then you're best not to do it.

I hope that is clear


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Xose said:


> Of course, there's always "How will they ever know?"....
> A card I personally would rather not play with.


If you are registered at the Spanish police, have a NIE and a fix adress, the agencia tributaria will automatically know about you. They can ask how you are able to pay for your life standard, especially if you buy a Porsche Cayenne, as many foreigners seem to drive wehre I live. So as you write "A card I personally would rather not play with". Especially now when the Spanish government tries to press every Euro out of the citizens in order to not go bankrupt. Cheating is still possible in Spain, such as working "black" etc., but it will become more and more difficult, as it is already in France (I did live in France for 30 years). The people who are still getting away with the cheating are lucky that the Spanish administration is so bad at organizing things, but unfortunately this has also downsides for the honest ones


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Hepa I'm sorry to say that that is a benefit of kind unless all ingredients are from another country and the fabrication took place soley, including all 3rd party suppliers, but allowing for the non ECC exemption clause of 1982, outside of the a foresaid country, with the exemption of black bitter brewed no more than 5 miles from Kirkcaldy, or Moldovian bear blood beer for similar reasons. Thus if your annual income is more than two thirds of the height of lampposts in other state then you're best not to do it.
> 
> I hope that is clear


Have you been on the juice already


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Hepa said:


> That makes it a lot clearer, mine is a Govt. pension in the U.K., I have no Spanish income, neither do I rent property, not yet anyway,
> 
> Thanks for the info, I owe you a drink,
> 
> Hepa


Thanks, send me one of those drinks mentioned by Nigele.....


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Have you been on the juice already


hic! guilty as charged yer onor hic!


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