# Good salary for large family



## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

My wife is in Munich these days, having quit her job and moved to Munich last week. As she sets up job interviews and inquires on others, she is also keeping Spain open as an option.

I am retiring early, and won't be able to begin taking withdrawals for another five years, so we have to live on savings, or my wife's income for those five years. We have determined how much we need in Germany, but we'd like to know how much a family of six would need to live comfortably in Barcelona.

Two adults, and six school aged children. They won't need a special school, the are all fluent in reading/writing in Spanish. Catalan is another topic, they can pick it up. No debts. We'd need a place that would fit us all comfortably, so rent would have to be considered.

Does anyone have a rough idea on what kind of salary would be needed? I don't need to mention, or remind anyone here about the job situation in Spain, so we know it is a tough situation to be in, hence why we will be in Germany for at least five years, but if by chance my wife is offered a position in Spain, we'd like to know this information before hand. My research in the past has been on where to live, but no so much in employment. I do not plan on working, BTW. She's Norwegian, and so are the kids, so no need for work, or resident visas for them.

Thanks


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*4 children!*

Oh heck, I said there were six children, I meant there were six of us, my wife and I and our four kids! 

While I am here, her salary in the US was 95K, sans bonuses, so it is hard to put down what salary expectations are in Spain, I know they are not even half of what my wife was making, so this is why we would like to get some input. I don't know how common it is, but how do large families such as ours do in Spain? 

Thanks again.


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## Moyra (Aug 10, 2014)

Hi Dionysus
It would depend on what you mean by "comfortable" do you, i.e. go out to eat twice a week, movies twice a month, outings every week (what sort) etc. More information is required to do a sort of dining out €xx movies €xx etc.

What you consider comfortable could be something completely different by others. 

Just my thoughts. 

Moyra


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Not much*



Moyra said:


> Hi Dionysus
> It would depend on what you mean by "comfortable" do you, i.e. go out to eat twice a week, movies twice a month, outings every week (what sort) etc. More information is required to do a sort of dining out €xx movies €xx etc.
> 
> What you consider comfortable could be something completely different by others.
> ...


Hi Moyra,

We go out to eat maybe once every two weeks, we cook at home most of the time. We are not big on seeing movies, we have NetFlix, Amazon, etc.

Maybe what I mean is as far as earning enough to rent a place large enough for our family. I've looked in the past, but there are not that many places to rent for large families, at least four and five bedroom flats are not that common. Maybe it was just the places I was looking at. Any suggestions would be welcomed. 

Thanks again.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Dionysus said:


> My wife is in Munich these days, having quit her job and moved to Munich last week. As she sets up job interviews and inquires on others, she is also keeping Spain open as an option.
> 
> I am retiring early, and won't be able to begin taking withdrawals for another five years, so we have to live on savings, or my wife's income for those five years. We have determined how much we need in Germany, but we'd like to know how much a family of six would need to live comfortably in Barcelona.
> 
> ...


What is comfortably? We are a family of 4 living "comfortably" in 90m2 (about 1000ft2) with no garage, basement or attic and with a 60m2 (650ft2) back yard. In the Seville suburbs that's what a middle class family with two incomes can aspire to. And we are fine with that. Would you be? 

I think more to the point is the fact that in order for your family to register as residents in Spain the authorities will ask to see a certain amount of income. It's running at about 700€/month per person. Maybe they'd ask to see less per child - that would be at the discretion of the particular person you deal with. 

On the plus side would be the fact that you'd be considered a "familia numerosa", which would give you some financial advantages.


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

@kalohi, thank you for the information.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

As far as property size is concerned, if you don't actually need to be in a city then villages can often offer large-ish properties for sale or rent at very good prices. For example our house spread over five levels is 220m² (2368ft²) and we paid €85k for it 10 years ago so now, would probably be about €50k. We have two bathrooms five bedrooms plus a habitable attic (49m²/527ft²) which would easily give another couple of bedrooms and another bathroom plus a lounge/study area. Worth thinking about.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Put your competing cities in here, for a rough guide to the different costs of living:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Nice*



baldilocks said:


> As far as property size is concerned, if you don't actually need to be in a city then villages can often offer large-ish properties for sale or rent at very good prices. For example our house spread over five levels is 220m² (2368ft²) and we paid €85k for it 10 years ago so now, would probably be about €50k. We have two bathrooms five bedrooms plus a habitable attic (49m²/527ft²) which would easily give another couple of bedrooms and another bathroom plus a lounge/study area. Worth thinking about.


@Baldilocks, it sounds like you made a great deal, and have a nice large house. That is something that we would like to have, five rooms, ideally. Not that our kids each need a room, but they are getting older. The price you paid is also very low, nice.

Without revealing too much, can you tell me about your area? Is it green? I would not mind living in a large house, on a hill, surrounded by tall trees. Ha... dreaming? But the kids would need to be able to get to the school easily, so I would need to either live near a school, or transit so the kids can get to school easily.

When we travel, I always like staying near, or in the city center, but I know that is not practical if you are living in a city, but I would like to get value for the money, so we don't mind being out of the city, as long as it is serviced by some form of transit close by.

Thanks -D.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Dionysus, you need to get work sorted first and then live near where the job is. Tell us where the jobs are your wife is applying for and then a member might be able to tell you about that area- It is far less likely that your wife will find a job here than you will find a suitable area to live in...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> @Baldilocks, it sounds like you made a great deal, and have a nice large house. That is something that we would like to have, five rooms, ideally. Not that our kids each need a room, but they are getting older. The price you paid is also very low, nice.
> 
> Without revealing too much, can you tell me about your area? Is it green? I would not mind living in a large house, on a hill, surrounded by tall trees. Ha... dreaming? But the kids would need to be able to get to the school easily, so I would need to either live near a school, or transit so the kids can get to school easily.
> 
> ...


See pictures in my albums:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/members/baldilocks-albums-around-castillo-de-locub-n.html
We live 102 km from Córdoba, 70km from Granada, 70 km from Jaén, all provincial capitals. Our nearest town is Alcalá la Real (google it) which is 12km away.

We have a good school in the village which takes pupils up to age 16 after which they take the bus to Alcalá to go to the college, there. Buses are not very frequent being a service only for those working and going to school, with a few shoppers buses during the day/week. You will find most of what you require in the village - we have 5 supermarkets and the usual other shops greengrocery, fish, etc., public library (with a growing selection of books in English - I must donate some more) 3 pharmacies plus a good selection of light industries where you can have various things made (furniture, ironwork, etc.) at reasonable cost.

This province, Jaén is the world's largest producer and exporter of Extra Virgin Olive oil (that is real cold-pressed EV not just labelled as such.) We also produce cherries, peaches, almonds, apples, membrillos (quinces,) etc. If you ever eat Ferrero's Cheri chocolates and they are made in Italy, you will be eating our cherries which we export to Italy from the village. Jaén has a wide selection of Natural Parks including the largest in Spain.

Express buses call at Alcalá with connection all over Spain. Our nearest railway station is in Jaén and it takes roughly 4 hours to get to Madrid. To get the most out of the area, you really need a car. By car it is about 2 hours to get to Málaga airport (AGP) and about 1¼ hours to get to Granada (GRX) airport. Roads are not busy and if we have to drive to Granada early morning (rush hour time) we maybe meet 50 cars at the most.

You were mentioning green We have trees, millions of olive trees but although they are evergreen, the green is a bit drab. The deciduous ones (cherry, peach, almond, etc.) add a splash of bright green; there are quite a few poplar trees about since they were grown for their long straight trunks to make roof beams (now mostly superseded by concrete.) If you were close by, you could have come to the cherry festival which is Fri. Sat. Sun. of this week and the Corpus Christi procession on Sunday when all the streets along the route are decorated.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

For Madrid or Barcelona, if you are renting a property you would need about 65,000 euro per year. Not many jobs pay that.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Michael Kelly said:


> For Madrid or Barcelona, if you are renting a property you would need about 65,000 euro per year. Not many jobs pay that.


I think that is a bit misleading. Many many families of three or more children (technically recognized as "large families") survive in Madrid with significantly less than 65k€ per year, because as you state, not many jobs pay that much, in fact, even with both parents working this is above the average wages.

Whether they would say that they live "comfortably" is another question of course, but taking into account that in my "barrio" of Madrid I can go and eat 3 "raciones", and two juices for the kids, and a free bottle of wine (not great wine, but drinkable) all for 35€ in a patio in the park where I can watch my kids play while we finish the wine after eating, I would say that l¡fe can be comfortable with "little" money.


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Mystery*



Michael Kelly said:


> For Madrid or Barcelona, if you are renting a property you would need about 65,000 euro per year. Not many jobs pay that.


@Michael Kelly, thanks. Yes, we know salaries are not that high, normally.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Overandout said:


> I think that is a bit misleading. Many many families of three or more children (technically recognized as "large families") survive in Madrid with significantly less than 65k€ per year, because as you state, not many jobs pay that much, in fact, even with both parents working this is above the average wages.
> 
> Whether they would say that they live "comfortably" is another question of course, but taking into account that in my "barrio" of Madrid I can go and eat 3 "raciones", and two juices for the kids, and a free bottle of wine (not great wine, but drinkable) all for 35€ in a patio in the park where I can watch my kids play while we finish the wine after eating, I would say that l¡fe can be comfortable with "little" money.


 I am basing my estimate on the family having to pay about 2000 euro rent. People with mortages would probably pay 1000 for a similar property


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Michael Kelly said:


> For Madrid or Barcelona, if you are renting a property you would need about 65,000 euro per year. Not many jobs pay that.


Yep I'd say that's about right for Madrid at least. Most Spanish families survive on less because they are smaller, own property, pool resources, go to their village for holidays and don't fly anywhere, etc.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

This may not help you at all but coming from another American who has seen other Americans move to Spain and just as quickly move out--adjust your idea of spending very quickly.

If your salary is a lot more on par with what is normal in Spain you'll feel very uncomfortable just with the number. The fact is Spanish society has adjusted really well (well thats relative) to lower salaries. The cost of food is very low, the cost of lodging can be very low, the cost of entertainment again can be very low. 

What Ive seen is a number of American or British nationals move here but really quickly leave when they realise the number on their pay check is very low. You have to adjust the way you think of spending to a more Spanish mindset. If you can do that you can live a very comfortable life on so much less than you did in Germany or the US. 

Until you understand the new budget constraints, for example, don't grocery shop at Carrefour or Cort Ingles. Go to Lidl and others. Instead of shopping for clothing at boutiques or department stores take advantage of the lower prices at Zara, Bershka, and Pull and Bear. My point is--its possible to live really well in Spain on a lot less. The problem will be adjusting your mind and idea of spending.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Michael Kelly said:


> I am basing my estimate on the family having to pay about 2000 euro rent. People with mortages would probably pay 1000 for a similar property


Uff thats a pretty steep rent. I live in Barcelona city centre in 105m 3 bedroom apartment and I pay 600 euros a month. I honestly don't know a single person who pays 2000e a month. Granted this is a big family so they probably would pay more and prices have been rising steadily.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

This is a recent article about the cost of living in Spain:

How To Calculate The Cost Of Living in Spain For You and Your Family!


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

@Madliz, thank you for the link, I appreciate the information. Are you really mad?!


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Clarity...*

@GreenGreen88, thank you, that is some great information. As I mentioned on my first post, I am just trying to get an idea of how much of my retirement will be used on living expenses, we won't need to earn/replace income.

Unfortunately, the jobs in Spain are hard to come by, or not that great in pay, to be honest, we've done the research.

Thanks again for the info.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> @Madliz, thank you for the link, I appreciate the information. Are you really mad?!


No she isn't, and I'm not really bald, yet!


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> @Madliz, thank you for the link, I appreciate the information. Are you really mad?!


Apparently so. Whenever I return to Madrid airport they put a MAD sticker on my suitcase.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Dionysus said:


> @GreenGreen88, thank you, that is some great information. As I mentioned on my first post, I am just trying to get an idea of how much of my retirement will be used on living expenses, we won't need to earn/replace income.
> 
> Unfortunately, the jobs in Spain are hard to come by, or not that great in pay, to be honest, we've done the research.
> 
> Thanks again for the info.


I hadn't taken into account earlier on that you would be retired. That could save you a load of money when it comes to things like school meals (if you can feed your kids at home) and childcare, expecially during the long summer holidays. Also you won't have the cost of going to work either. I guess in that case you might be able to live comfortably off nearer €50k.


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## Dionysus (Jan 4, 2016)

*Income...*



Chopera said:


> I hadn't taken into account earlier on that you would be retired. That could save you a load of money when it comes to things like school meals (if you can feed your kids at home) and childcare, expecially during the long summer holidays. Also you won't have the cost of going to work either. I guess in that case you might be able to live comfortably off nearer €50k.


@Chopera, thanks for that, it is good to know. Slowly I'm assembling a picture of what life will actually be like. I've yet to factor in all the taxes and such, so still work in progress.

I can retire, but my retirement accounts/investments cannot be withdrawn upon without a penalty until I am 59.5, so we considered going to Spain and living off of savings for 4, or five years, but draining savings is not a good idea. My wife can work in the EU without the need for visa, or permit, is 11 years my junior, so we agreed that she could work those 4-5 years.

Working will also allow us to contribute to the social system. I hope not to offend, but we don't like it when people come here to the US with the predetermined notion that they will abuse, and take from the welfare system which they have not contributed to. We won't be a burden like that in Europe, or anywhere.

Still, EUR 50K is still high for one person working in Spain, isn't it? The jobs my wife looked at which were similar in nature in Spain paid less than half of what she makes here. Of course, we know the salaries are higher here, it just takes some getting used to, and we understand.

I will be receiving somewhere between EUR 85,000 and 112,000 in retirement income annually, but that does not take into account taxes, which are higher than here I understand. I just want to have a clear picture, and by the looks of it, we will be okay. We just have to muster through 4-5 years in Germany first. Not that there is anything wrong with Germany, it is just too cold!


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

GreenGreen88 said:


> Uff thats a pretty steep rent. I live in Barcelona city centre in 105m 3 bedroom apartment and I pay 600 euros a month. I honestly don't know a single person who pays 2000e a month. Granted this is a big family so they probably would pay more and prices have been rising steadily.


Then you have gotten a real bargain. 600 would barely get a one bedroom flat in the centre of Barcelona from what I see on offer.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Habitaclia give a price of 19 euro per square meter for rental properties in the Eixample district of Barcelona.

https://www.habitaclia.com/informes/precio-medio-alquiler-viviendas-distrito_eixample-barcelona.htm

You are paying just 5.70 euro per square meter. How did you manage to get your flat at such a good price?

Idealista indicates cheaper prices but still much more than what you are paying.

https://www.idealista.com/news/estadisticas/precio-linea-metro/barcelona


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Michael Kelly said:


> Then you have gotten a real bargain. 600 would barely get a one bedroom flat in the centre of Barcelona from what I see on offer.


My daughter & her friends were paying 700€ a month iirc - right in the centre. 3 bedrooms, lift, incredible views. She isn't there now, but her two flatmates are. 

Not a luxurious apartment, but it has everything they need.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> Michael Kelly said:
> 
> 
> > Then you have gotten a real bargain. 600 would barely get a one bedroom flat in the centre of Barcelona from what I see on offer.
> ...


Strange because ?600 will get you an average 1 bed flat in Madrid and I thought Barcelona might be more expensive. 

S


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