# Marrying a Portuguese Citizen



## Mneme

Hi all, hope I'm posting this in the right place.

I am engaged to marry someone from Portugal. I am a US citizen and I would like to move there to be with him. I am having trouble finding all the information required of me to start the process to get a residency visa once we are married and I am there. And further, to bring my daughter in under a visa as well. 

The consulates (both US and Portuguese) have told me it's no biggie, just bring my Birth Certificate, criminal records, passport, etc. But now I am reading something about needing to provide "Proof of income / financial independence". 

I am a single mother and obviously won't have an income if I am relocating to another country! So how can I provide this? Will the fact that he works and owns a home suffice? In the US if you want to bring a husband/fiance over you have to prove you can support them. Is it different in Portugal? I am really confused, and I just can't seem to find any info beyond that I need to provide Proof of income / financial independence. Any help would be great! Thanks.


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## canoeman

It would be easier to be married before entering Portugal, EU guidance is written from your partners perspective, your research should be centred on the* reunification of family* which includes partners, all of a sudden the previous notes on reunification aren't on site anymore or are being worked on.
SEF site 
Portal SEF
Portal SEF
Form Application to Regroup / Reunite Family


EU - Residence rights for non-EU relatives/non-registered partners - Your Europe


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## Mneme

canoeman said:


> It would be easier to be married before entering Portugal.


Thank you, those links were very helpful. 

I am a bit confused as to why we should be married before entering Portugal. US guidelines make it pretty difficult to marry a foreign national on US soil without going through a lot of red tape or making it difficult to return with them to the US in the future. So our plan is to marry once I am there on a visa waiver (which both the consulate and embassy said was fine) and then apply for a residency visa during the 3 months I have on the waiver- asking for an extension if necessary. Since there isn't a whole lot of information about this process, even from his side, I am getting the impression that it is left up to discression a lot of the time. But it would be lovely to know if I am going to be turned away due to not having work lined up or a lot of money saved up. Some facts would be nice but seem hard to come by. 

In short- why do you believe it would be better to be married before hand?


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## siobhanwf

Hi mneme, So glad you found our forum :welcome:


You do not say how soon you expect to be married after you arrive in Portugal.

You need to speak to the Portuguese consulate and tell them your situation and I am sure that they will advise you on the correct way to approach it.

the us consular site for portugal is : Home | Embassy of the United States Lisbon, Portugal

Marriage in Portugal | Consulate of the United States although this is a site for the Azores it is also valid for the whole of Portugal


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## Mneme

Hi, thanks for the welcome.  

I am wrapping things up here in the US and intend to be there around November/December of this year. We would probably marry on Madeira, as that's where he lives and works currently. 

I've spoken to the Portuguese Embassy here in the US and the US Consulate in Portugal quite a few times to gather information. They've both sent me information on the process but it is so general, and when questioned they seem to be a bit lacking in information. Maybe I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be!

If I read canoeman right he was saying that since I'm coming in as family that the financial independence proof isn't necessarily needed. Now I'm just wondering why it would be better to marry first.


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## canoeman

Purely because it simplifies things entering as a married person rather than a partner, as you are then a dependent relative.
I'm not saying that you don't require proof but that entry as re-unification of family which applies to proven partnerships is a far easier and straightforward procedure, than maybe someone in SEF etc deciding you need to provide proof of financial independence and health care when you apply to extend visa or Residency.


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## Mneme

I believe I would be applying as a married person, rather than a partner in this case, no? We've been together for over a year at this point, though only physically together for three months of that time. Surely that's enough to establish a relationship.


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## canoeman

Mneme said:


> I believe I would be applying as a married person, rather than a partner in this case, no? We've been together for over a year at this point, though only physically together for three months of that time. Surely that's enough to establish a relationship.


Really depends on when exactly you get married, presumably you've checked on any requirements, again I don't know I'd have thought that possibly 3 months isn't sufficient, but as you've said it could be up to the interpretation an official makes if there's no hard and fast rules set out.


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## Mneme

Which is exactly my problem, haha. No hard and fast rules, and I'm making a major life change, selling everything I own and moving to Portugal. It would be nice to get a solid answer from somewhere but they seem hard to come by. 

Leaving one proverbial foot on US soil would cost more than going there and being denied and having to come back at this point.


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## blackirishgirl

Everyone here has offered very good advice! Relax - it's not as confusing as it seems. It's a huge step to leave everything behind and start over, especially with a child but you'll make it through!

Please, PM me as I'm an American who might be able to tell you what SEF requires based on what you've written and similarities to what I had to do. I was recently married after living here on an extended stay "visa" while we waited for paperwork. Your soon to be spouse will have to document to SEF in writing, with both of you present, what your intentions will be. You should not need a criminal background check as you are marrying a Portuguese citizen and under the Reunification of Family law, it's not needed. 

We established a relationship while being together about one year and with us only have visits back and forth every 3 months before I moved over and began the extended stay "visa". It was enough for SEF. Save all tickets/boarding passes and be prepared for them to view passports to document visits. As for your child, you don't mention an age (or I missed it reading too fast).

*Extended stay visa meant that I was here with my passport having a visa affixed and having to report to SEF at time limits they set.


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## siobhanwf

Great first hand experience for you Mneme. Blackirish girl's information can be counted on. I sure she would be happy to her from you via PM which you can now use as you have made 5 posts.

Hpw old is your little one? MADEIRA what a wonderful place to set up a new home


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## Mneme

She's 3, going on four. And I PM'd her. Thanks for the recommendation.  

I haven't been to Madeira, but it certainly looks beautiful.


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## siobhanwf

An exciting time for you then and your little girl. I wish you all the very best


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## anapedrosa

Hi Mneme,
I'm a Canadian-Portuguese planning to move to Portugal with my Canadian 'common-law'. The consulate here offered me similar advice to what you have receive, though I am told our common law status will be recognized.
I just wanted to comment on the financial means - I believe (though you'd want to confirm) that the minimal subsistence level is set based on the minimum wage, which is very low in Portugal. I also read on another forum that at the moment, it is set at 72% of the minimal wage, that is 342 euros a month or 4140 euros annually. 
That may put your mind at ease with regards to the financial aspect.


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## Mneme

anapedrosa said:


> Hi Mneme,
> I'm a Canadian-Portuguese planning to move to Portugal with my Canadian 'common-law'. The consulate here offered me similar advice to what you have receive, though I am told our common law status will be recognized.
> I just wanted to comment on the financial means - I believe (though you'd want to confirm) that the minimal subsistence level is set based on the minimum wage, which is very low in Portugal. I also read on another forum that at the moment, it is set at 72% of the minimal wage, that is 342 euros a month or 4140 euros annually.
> That may put your mind at ease with regards to the financial aspect.



72 percent vs the US's required minimum of 125% if the Minimum wage. That is amazing. Thank you for your answer.

Some of the stories I am reading make me wonder if waiting until my divorce is finalized with my ex husband (which it will be in Oct/Nov) ... if Portugal would be more understanding and let us be together sooner. The state I live in requires a _year's_ cooling off period of living separate and apart from your ex-to-be before they will grant a divorce, and then it takes _months_ to go through the courts. It's not for lack of wanting to be free to marry that I am still waiting. It seems more and more like Portugal is much more inviting and understanding than I originally worried. Coming from unfriendly US immigration forums where someone was actually banned in one of my threads for attacking me information gathering before I was officially divorced this has been a real breath of fresh air. Thank you. 

I know there is a waiting period in Portugal before a person can be remarried, but at least the divorce seems to be granted so a person can move on.


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> 72 percent vs the US's required minimum of 125% if the Minimum wage. That is amazing. Thank you for your answer.
> 
> Some of the stories I am reading make me wonder if waiting until my divorce is finalized with my ex husband (which it will be in Oct/Nov) ... if Portugal would be more understanding and let us be together sooner. The state I live in requires a _year's_ cooling off period of living separate and apart from your ex-to-be before they will grant a divorce, and then it takes _months_ to go through the courts. It's not for lack of wanting to be free to marry that I am still waiting. It seems more and more like Portugal is much more inviting and understanding than I originally worried. Coming from unfriendly US immigration forums where someone was actually banned in one of my threads for attacking me information gathering before I was officially divorced this has been a real breath of fresh air. Thank you.
> 
> I know there is a waiting period in Portugal before a person can be remarried, but at least the divorce seems to be granted so a person can move on.


I recommend that you take care of all of your administrative process in the US and bring a paper trail of every transaction. You may not need all of it, but if you don't have what they ask for it becomes a brick wall blocking your path. The Portuguese bureaucracy is incredibly challenging to navigate for the most basic transactions. You may as well practice patience with your home state as you will certainly need it in Portugal - that is when you're not enjoying the beeches, restaurants and your new family and friends.


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## stupid2believecon

*Be very very informed of your rights !!!*



Mneme said:


> Hi all, hope I'm posting this in the right place.
> 
> I am engaged to marry someone from Portugal. I am a US citizen and I would like to move there to be with him. I am having trouble finding all the information required of me to start the process to get a residency visa once we are married and I am there. And further, to bring my daughter in under a visa as well.
> 
> The consulates (both US and Portuguese) have told me it's no biggie, just bring my Birth Certificate, criminal records, passport, etc. But now I am reading something about needing to provide "Proof of income / financial independence".
> 
> I am a single mother and obviously won't have an income if I am relocating to another country! So how can I provide this? Will the fact that he works and owns a home suffice? In the US if you want to bring a husband/fiance over you have to prove you can support them. Is it different in Portugal? I am really confused, and I just can't seem to find any info beyond that I need to provide Proof of income / financial independence. Any help would be great! Thanks.


---------------------------
I just went through all of this and am still going through it with a man i married 18 years ago in the U.S. I am really really frustrated right now as he has turned out to be some kind of gigolo that seems to only in fact have been interested in using me to pay his U.S. child support (for the last 18 years) and now that we have just finished doing that, and because we have purchased properties etc in Portugal in his name (because you can't buy in your own name because you aren't yet a citizen) in ditching me and trying to whore his way across the islands. 

I continue to press forward to get my citizenship but fear it's all coming to an end and the fight will be on. As far as proof of income, just write a declaration and have it translated into Portuguese as to what your assets are (jointly) and that you feel you will need no help from the Portuguese government in the future.. it worked for me. 

Get married in your country of origin before coming to Portugal. Have your marriage "registered" in Portugal by the Portuguese consulate in the U.S. This is exactly like being married in Portugal. DO NOT under any circumstances re-locate your child and yourself to Portugal on a "promise" of marriage. You also need to get a dmv record and a letter from the dmv showing you are a good driver and request a transfer of your drivers license to a Portugal one.. you sure don't want to be stuck here without any ability to drive or any way out and, you don't want to have to take that test in Portuguese. You will need to pay to have the docs transferred into Portuguese and signed by a consulate approved notary. 

First, you don't need a visa if you register as the Spouse of a European Union Citizen with the SEF as soon as you get here, but you need to register as a Citizen Spouse otherwise you do have to have a visa or you have to leave the country (outside of europe) every three months.

If I sound a little bitter, it's because I am. I've given 18 hard working years to a con, and never ever saw this coming, so you can believe that I'm bitter. The idea of getting a divorce in two countries now is overwhelming not to mention the fact that you have so few rights as a non-citizen here.

You are welcome to get advise any time you want. Much luck to you!!!!


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## stupid2believecon

anapedrosa said:


> Hi Mneme,
> I'm a Canadian-Portuguese planning to move to Portugal with my Canadian 'common-law'. The consulate here offered me similar advice to what you have receive, though I am told our common law status will be recognized.
> I just wanted to comment on the financial means - I believe (though you'd want to confirm) that the minimal subsistence level is set based on the minimum wage, which is very low in Portugal. I also read on another forum that at the moment, it is set at 72% of the minimal wage, that is 342 euros a month or 4140 euros annually.
> That may put your mind at ease with regards to the financial aspect.


----------------------------------------
Do not believe for one second that "common law" will be recognized. Any assets you "jointly" accumulate will be put in the name of the person that is born in the country because a non citizen can't own property here, and, you can't even register them "as the citizen being a married person" if you aren't married.


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## stupid2believecon

anapedrosa said:


> I recommend that you take care of all of your administrative process in the US and bring a paper trail of every transaction. You may not need all of it, but if you don't have what they ask for it becomes a brick wall blocking your path. The Portuguese bureaucracy is incredibly challenging to navigate for the most basic transactions. You may as well practice patience with your home state as you will certainly need it in Portugal - that is when you're not enjoying the beeches, restaurants and your new family and friends.


Amen to that. I didn't know to get my fingerprints and criminal record before coming and now i'm stuck until i go back to the U.S. to get it to apply for citizenship. Registering as a EU spouse and obtaining citizenship are two different processes. I worked hard to have all of my bases covered and still it wasn't enough.


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## stupid2believecon

Mneme said:


> Which is exactly my problem, haha. No hard and fast rules, and I'm making a major life change, selling everything I own and moving to Portugal. It would be nice to get a solid answer from somewhere but they seem hard to come by.
> 
> Leaving one proverbial foot on US soil would cost more than going there and being denied and having to come back at this point.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hindsight being 20 / 20, as lovely as the Acores are, I would NEVER again, sell everything and move to Portugal. 

Fortunately i at least had the presence of mind to keep a home in the U.S. so i am not completely destitute if push comes to shove. I certainly wouldn't move a child on a promise of marriage. It's too hard here being married with the marriage registered in two countries. When i got here, i was forced to sign declaration that my vehicle and a container full of stuff would enter the country in "his" name because it "was easier" by customs. Before i did that, i had a written agreement drawn up between the two of us - him acknowledging that i own 50% of everything we have... who knows if the document will be enough but please please don't go into this blindly... don't get rid of everything you own on a promise. After 18 years I DID NOT SEE THIS COMING...


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## canoeman

Sorry but some of your posting is totally inaccurate for example "non citizen can't own property here" it would seem that maybe you weren't given the correct information but any property, assets, cars etc here can be solely owned or jointly.


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## Mneme

I see... I think... what you are trying to do. To warn me to be safe. I am sorry that you have gone through what you did... though I am a bit confused about what he conned you to do. 

I am 100 percent certain that my fiance is a genuine man. He is the most gentle, loving and yet flawed person I have ever met. He has shown me both the good and the "ugly" and I find them both perfect for _me_. And if he was trying to con me he would have picked the wrong person because I am not trusting and have questioned his motives from the beginning, as I tend to do with everyone who tries to get close to me.

As for my assets, what do I have to lose? Really? Some things? My car? I don't like my car anyway. It is an SUV and a gas guzzler. What does my daughter have to lose? She has wonderful grandparents and her father loves her and will always make sure that she is taken care of if for some reason I can't. 

I am fairly certain I will be able to own assets. And I have gotten my fingerprints to take with me but not sent for my FBI file so that it will be 'fresh' when and if I need to. I am leaving my daughter with her grandparents for a much needed trip to see the rest of her expansive family which she has never met when I initially go over to make things easy on her and to get my fiance's house ready to have a child in it, arrange preschool etc. 

It sounds like you are very bitter, and you probably have reason to be- but why would you want to turn that bitterness on someone like me? Because all you have succeeded in doing is repeating what others have said, but terrifying me about the future. 

Canoeman- I have gotten answers from both sides of the coin re where I should marry him. He is going to investigate whether or not they would recognize a wedding here. Portugal seems pretty progressive compared to a lot of countries. I would be very surprised if they wouldn't. And the process to marry here is much quicker and easier than I thought.


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## anapedrosa

S2B

Your situation sounds like the worst case scenario. However, there are a few points I don't believe are correct. Foreigners can indeed own property in Portugal, I have several non-Portuguese friends who do. I will be buying property with my common law spouse and we will be registering it under both names. Common law is recognized in Portugal and people do own properties in both their names. There is one difference in Portugal with regards to home ownership. Portuguese homes, inheritance automatically goes to the spouse and the children. The children can not be disinherited, this differs from Canada and I suspect the US.

I have also been advised that my common law spouse will need a Visa and have confirmed this online.

I certainly agree that caution is a critical element and that there are cons out there. There is no doubt in my mind that navigating the Portuguese system is not easy. I do not pretend to know your full situation, but, if I was in your position I would be checking with a lawyer to check my rights - and perhaps more than one lawyer till I found one that gave me the confidence that they knew my rights.

Whatever approach you choose, I wish you the best of luck and hope that you find a resolution to your situation.


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## canoeman

"Portuguese homes, inheritance automatically goes to the spouse and the children."

This is *not* strictly true, Portugal does *recognize your Nationality of Birth* when it comes to *succession*, so providing that your *Birth Countries laws allow* you to leave your share of any assets *how you wish*, then providing you make a *Will in Portugal*, you are* perfectly and legally entitled* to leave assets as and to whom you wish.

So you do have a choice you can follow your Birth countries laws or Portugals.


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## anapedrosa

canoeman said:


> "Portuguese homes, inheritance automatically goes to the spouse and the children."
> 
> This is *not* strictly true, Portugal does *recognize your Nationality of Birth* when it comes to *succession*, so providing that your *Birth Countries laws allow* you to leave your share of any assets *how you wish*, then providing you make a *Will in Portugal*, you are* perfectly and legally entitled* to leave assets as and to whom you wish.
> 
> So you do have a choice you can follow your Birth countries laws or Portugals.


Interesting - thank you for that information Canoeman. We both have as a birth country Canada, but up until now I was under the impression that my Portuguese citizenship would trump my birth citizenship when I am in Portugal. I will seek legal advice about a will when we purchase - thanks for the pointer.


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## Mneme

anapedrosa said:


> I have also been advised that my common law spouse will need a Visa and have confirmed this online.


I am wondering what you mean by a visa. From what we can tell there's no getting a visa to move to Portugal, only applying for reuniting family, which I guess is a visa, once you're there. Both consulates have advised us to either marry here and go there on a visa waiver, or go there on a visa waiver and marry him and start the process in Portugal. Is this the route you're going?


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## canoeman

anapedrosa, you might find this link useful, as it does give clear basic information, didn't realize or forget that you have Portuguese nationality, so you should check carefully, not all Portuguese solicitors or lawyers understand this option so take care 

Which law applies? Can I choose the law applicable to my succession? - Successions in Portugal


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## anapedrosa

canoeman said:


> anapedrosa, you might find this link useful, as it does give clear basic information, didn't realize or forget that you have Portuguese nationality, so you should check carefully, not all Portuguese solicitors or lawyers understand this option so take care
> 
> Which law applies? Can I choose the law applicable to my succession? - Successions in Portugal


Canoeman - I have book marked the link and will consider carefully, with legal advice. thanks again,
Ana


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> I am wondering what you mean by a visa. From what we can tell there's no getting a visa to move to Portugal, only applying for reuniting family, which I guess is a visa, once you're there. Both consulates have advised us to either marry here and go there on a visa waiver, or go there on a visa waiver and marry him and start the process in Portugal. Is this the route you're going?


Hi Mneme,
My understanding of Visa is that it is that the visa will give my spouse (a non-Portuguese) permission to stay in Portugal for more than 3 months. Once there, as a common-law spouse of a Portuguese citizen (me), he will apply for residency, which he will be able to as my spouse. We don't intend to get married, unless it turns out that it really simplifies or protects our rights in any way. At this point that does not appear to be the case. Hope this clarifies.


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## Mneme

anapedrosa said:


> Hi Mneme,
> My understanding of Visa is that it is that the visa will give my spouse (a non-Portuguese) permission to stay in Portugal for more than 3 months. Once there, as a common-law spouse of a Portuguese citizen (me), he will apply for residency, which he will be able to as my spouse. We don't intend to get married, unless it turns out that it really simplifies or protects our rights in any way. At this point that does not appear to be the case. Hope this clarifies.


I am just not sure whether this is something you are applying for before you go. If so, is there a link you could provide with information? I'd really appreciate it. And thanks. And good luck to you both as well.


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## anapedrosa

canoeman said:


> anapedrosa, you might find this link useful, as it does give clear basic information, didn't realize or forget that you have Portuguese nationality, so you should check carefully, not all Portuguese solicitors or lawyers understand this option so take care
> 
> Which law applies? Can I choose the law applicable to my succession? - Successions in Portugal


Canoeman - I have book marked the link and will consider carefully, with legal advice. thanks again,
Ana


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> I am just not sure whether this is something you are applying for before you go. If so, is there a link you could provide with information? I'd really appreciate it. And thanks. And good luck to you both as well.


My understanding is that it is something you have to apply for from the Portuguese consulate before you go. I haven't fully researched this part yet, but here are a couple of book marks that others have given me that may help you.

EU - Residence rights for non-EU relatives/non-registered partners - Your Europe 

The EC link has extensive English information, the challenge is that sometimes Portuguese bureaucrats have their own interpretation that can complicate matters. Though as you will have Portuguese family there, they should be able to help you navigate the bureaucracy.

The Portuguese site for immigration is Portal SEF - they have limited translation, but perhaps your husband to be can help you navigate the site.

A visa (visto in Portuguese) is one of those things that if you need it before you go can cause you grief afterwards - you get it from the Portuguese consulate in your area.


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## stupid2believecon

blackirishgirl said:


> Everyone here has offered very good advice! Relax - it's not as confusing as it seems. It's a huge step to leave everything behind and start over, especially with a child but you'll make it through!
> 
> Please, PM me as I'm an American who might be able to tell you what SEF requires based on what you've written and similarities to what I had to do. I was recently married after living here on an extended stay "visa" while we waited for paperwork. Your soon to be spouse will have to document to SEF in writing, with both of you present, what your intentions will be. You should not need a criminal background check as you are marrying a Portuguese citizen and under the Reunification of Family law, it's not needed.
> 
> We established a relationship while being together about one year and with us only have visits back and forth every 3 months before I moved over and began the extended stay "visa". It was enough for SEF. Save all tickets/boarding passes and be prepared for them to view passports to document visits. As for your child, you don't mention an age (or I missed it reading too fast).
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> *Extended stay visa meant that I was here with my passport having a visa affixed and having to report to SEF at time limits they set.



GET THE CRIMINAL BACKGROUND if you plan to some day become a citizen of Portugal (a process you can start after 3 years of marriage) it has to be dated within 6 months of application date. Sometimes becoming a citizen is the only thing that will protect your rights as a spouse of an EU citizen.


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## canoeman

I would think that it is far better to arrive with a Visa than not, I have heard of Americans having to leave country to actually obtain a Visa so they could reenter and stay longer than 3 months.
As I said when you first asked I would be easier if you where married in the USA, entry and Residence is then relatively straightforward.
With the information you have given and the short length of time you have been together I don't believe that SEF would accept you where actually long term partners and would more than likly insist on a Visa for you to extend your visit.


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## canoeman

I would think that it is far better to arrive with a Visa than not, I have heard of Americans having to leave country to actually obtain a Visa so they could reenter and stay longer than 3 months.
As I said when you first asked I would be easier if you where married in the USA, entry and Residence is then relatively straightforward.

With the information you have given and the short length of time you have been together I don't believe that SEF would accept you where actually long term partners and would not consider the reunification of families option and would more than likely insist on a Visa for you to extend your stay.


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## Mneme

And the information that I have says you have to apply for a residency visa six months before your intended stay. I don't understand why the Portuguese Consulate here told me it was fine to go marry him on a visa waiver and apply to stay. We don't intend to live there forever. But we need to live SOMEWHERE where we can be together. I'm feeling very defeated.

How is a year a short length of time, when the law makes it so that you can't be "together" for more than three months at a time? People have lives and jobs. God forbid you should fall in love with someone from another country.


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> And the information that I have says you have to apply for a residency visa six months before your intended stay. I don't understand why the Portuguese Consulate here told me it was fine to go marry him on a visa waiver and apply to stay. We don't intend to live there forever. But we need to live SOMEWHERE where we can be together. I'm feeling very defeated.
> 
> How is a year a short length of time, when the law makes it so that you can't be "together" for more than three months at a time? People have lives and jobs. God forbid you should fall in love with someone from another country.


Hi Mneme.

I found a site that seems to offer a bit more information in English
Residence Visa - Portal das Comunidades Portuguesas / Vistos 

I don't see anything on here that suggests apply 6 months in advance (actually what I read on the site suggests +3 months), however when I look at the amount of documentation they want, perhaps it is a requirement of the consulate you are dealing with to allow for processing time. Good luck - I hope you find your way.


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## blackirishgirl

Please, stop worrying. You don't need a Visa and the consulate has verified that. You're obsessing because you're worried that you'll miss something that will cause you to not be with the man you love. I've given you the steps of what I did and how SEF worked with me and my fiancé (at the time) for over 2 years - NO Visa was needed. Nothing has changed since that time.

Everyone wants to help but there are times when too much information keeps coming and it just muddies the water. I've given you the name and contact details of a Consular officer who took the time to explain all of this to me more than 3 years ago when I was in your shoes.

So, take a breath and relax. You are not coming over as a tourist to travel or study. You're coming over to marry a PT citizen and can document your relationship. My OH and I met online and he only visited the USA 1 time; I came to PT twice, before I moved over. SEF never asked us about any of that, but we did have proof of each visit incase they did. That's why I told you to save your plane tickets or printouts of E-tickets, just in case.

*stupid2believecon - NO criminal background check is asked for with the Reunification of Family act, which is how she will be getting her stay and residency. 

So, from someone who HAS done this in almost 100% the same circumstances (I wasn't divorced - I was widowed), I've given you verifiable, honest information. I've previously PM'd you with the documents you'll need and what will need to be translated for your wedding here.


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## blackirishgirl

I was looking for an Edit option but don't see one.

When I read my post I realized that due to the late hour, I sound a bit bossy. That's not my aim. 

Everyone here has good intentions, I'm sure but there's so much confusion about this issue. Once she arrives and speaks with SEF they'll outline how long she can stay - but a one year extension if asked for, is always given. 

So again, pardon my tone in the post. This situation is one I have lived through and believe that the information I have given is accurate.


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## Mneme

blackirishgirl said:


> I was looking for an Edit option but don't see one.
> 
> When I read my post I realized that due to the late hour, I sound a bit bossy. That's not my aim.
> 
> Everyone here has good intentions, I'm sure but there's so much confusion about this issue. Once she arrives and speaks with SEF they'll outline how long she can stay - but a one year extension if asked for, is always given.
> 
> So again, pardon my tone in the post. This situation is one I have lived through and believe that the information I have given is accurate.


I don't think you sounded bossy. And you have given me a ton of really great info. I think I've just got a bad case of information overload. And I know everyone is trying to help and I appreciate it greatly.


----------



## Mneme

So after talking to yet another Consulate and my fiance talking to SEF, we have been, _*again*_, told to go on a _*visa waiver*_, get married, and apply to reunite family- ie bring my daughter and give me residency and that no visa is required. SEF seemed very kind and accommodating and I feel a lot better about the process.


----------



## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> So after talking to yet another Consulate and my fiance talking to SEF, we have been, _*again*_, told to go on a _*visa waiver*_, get married, and apply to reunite family- ie bring my daughter and give me residency and that no visa is required. SEF seemed very kind and accommodating and I feel a lot better about the process.


Well done and best of luck with all.


----------



## canoeman

Great go for it and let us know how you go on


----------



## Mneme

Thanks for all the help and advice.


----------



## Catx

Best of luck Mneme! 

I, too, intend to marry a Portuguese citizen later this year. I have already been living here in Portugal for a couple of years and did everything "by the book" with regard to certificates, translations, letter of freedom (Certificat de Coutume) from the Irish Embassy and still the Conservatoria in Faro are not happy. Everything had to go back to the Embassy in Lisbon, even though Embassy staff spoke with, and emailed, the Conservatoria in Faro to say that all is in order. Tomorrow, we go back in to try again, with the same documents, but now my Irish birth certificate has the stamp of the Irish Embassy on the back of it :confused2: Normally, I am the first to shrug off or defend the bureaucracy in Portugal but this time they have got my back up. If necessary, it is easy and relatively cheap for me or us to go to Ireland to jump through whatever hoops are declared necessary. I dread to think how I would feel if I was from outside of the EU and being given this runaround.

Be sure, check again and then be doubly sure that marrying here is the simplest and most effective way to go. 

Then, go have an amazing wedding and a wonderfully long and happy life together


----------



## Mneme

Catx said:


> Best of luck Mneme!
> 
> I, too, intend to marry a Portuguese citizen later this year. I have already been living here in Portugal for a couple of years and did everything "by the book" with regard to certificates, translations, letter of freedom (Certificat de Coutume) from the Irish Embassy and still the Conservatoria in Faro are not happy. Everything had to go back to the Embassy in Lisbon, even though Embassy staff spoke with, and emailed, the Conservatoria in Faro to say that all is in order. Tomorrow, we go back in to try again, with the same documents, but now my Irish birth certificate has the stamp of the Irish Embassy on the back of it :confused2: Normally, I am the first to shrug off or defend the bureaucracy in Portugal but this time they have got my back up. If necessary, it is easy and relatively cheap for me or us to go to Ireland to jump through whatever hoops are declared necessary. I dread to think how I would feel if I was from outside of the EU and being given this runaround.
> 
> Be sure, check again and then be doubly sure that marrying here is the simplest and most effective way to go.
> 
> Then, go have an amazing wedding and a wonderfully long and happy life together



I have checked rechecked and checked again and it's driving me mad, lol. 

The Consulate in Washington DC did tell me I needed to have my US birth certificate authenticated by them, ie- given a stamp stating that it was real, so that is one of the things I have in the works. Also, I had my fingerprints taken to send for my FBI records- to show I have no criminal background. But I haven't sent for them because I don't want them to say 'well these are nearly a year old, she could be a criminal now'. So I will send for them when they are requested and hope that works. 

SEF told my fiance that I would not need to have everything translated, but the Consulate said I need to have the embassy or consulate make official translations of my divorce papers and a letter of no impediment written stating that I am free to marry. So I am not sure whether I will need those things but when I get there I will send my divorce papers to the US Embassy in Lisbon if the Citizen services will not give us permission to marry without them- and they charge I think about 75 dollars for translation and the letter, if necessary. 

It seems like it's really hit and miss. Sometimes they don't even ASK for these things, but it seems better to have them just in case. It seems odd that they would give you trouble now considering you've been there for a while.

May I ask you how you came to live in Portugal? Did you meet your fiance there or did you move to live with them?

Yes, it is very scary to know I could be sent back to the US. I don't have family or anything to come back to. I would have to rely on my ex husband's family's good will if push came to shove. And that is not a certainty.


----------



## canoeman

You have *2 separate issues *here
Entry requirements for Portugal which Black Irish Girl has clarified for you.
Required paperwork and documents to get married.

Absolutley certain you *will need* 
a certificate of No impediment
an apostulated Birth Certificate
Proof of divorce

For UK Citizens these documents *must all be Apostilled and translated* by an official translator, then *authenticated by a Portuguese Public Notary* I believe that this applies to all *non Portuguese*, so no different for USA citizens.



The Department responsible for marriage in Portugal, regulating, authenticating paperwork etc is Instituto dos Registos e Notariado: Início

You should also check the time validity of documents as they are limited eg copy of birth Cert must be issued, apostilled and translated within 6 months of marriage.


----------



## Catx

canoeman said:


> Required paperwork and documents to get married.
> 
> Absolutley certain you *will need*
> a certificate of No impediment
> an apostulated Birth Certificate
> Proof of divorce
> 
> For UK Citizens these documents *must all be Apostilled and translated* by an official translator, then *authenticated by a Portuguese Public Notary* I believe that this applies to all *non Portuguese*, so no different for USA citizens.
> 
> The Department responsible for marriage in Portugal, regulating, authenticating paperwork etc is Instituto dos Registos e Notariado: Início
> 
> You should also check the time validity of documents as they are limited eg copy of birth Cert must be issued, apostilled and translated within 6 months of marriage.


Absolutely correct, Canoeman. Having met all of these requirements, at significant expense for new documents, translations, notarisations, trips to Embassy etc, I still was sent away. 

Mneme, I came to live in Portugal as it had been a dream of mine to do so. I came alone and just over a year later, I met the person who I am now happy to marry. I had already done all the normal "moving to Portugal" bureaucratic necessities long before we met. As an EU citizen, that was somewhat easier for me. Proving that I would be able to support myself here was the main concern at the time that my Residencia was issued. Even with a Residencia, it is not making the marriage application processs an easy one.

Bear in mind, I am using the Conservatoria in Faro city. It may be more relaxed in other areas. The requirements will be the same, but the Cerificat de Coutume from the Embassy may be accepted as proof of the validity of the accompanying documents. The Irish Embassy no longer provides a translation service, but instead recommends a number of translators. The Conservatoria did not know this and did not seem happy to accept my word for it.

Back in there again later today and will back to post some, hopefully, happier news.


----------



## Mneme

I have read that the birth certificate needs to be issued in the last six months but when I asked the consulate they said that only applies to Portuguese citizens because theirs shows changes, whereas ours does not. Also it seems absurd to request something done in the last six months that doesn't change since your birth and the process to move there can take well over that length of time. What do you do, get it and then if it takes longer to move send for another one? Do they not know how long it takes for these things in the US? Just to send for my daughters the wait was 9 weeks. 

I need to have the consulate approve my paperwork and THEN have them notarized? Do they not trust their own consulate?

Best of luck Catx.


----------



## blackirishgirl

US Embassy will NOT issue a Certificate of No Impediment - But they will issue a letter stating that they don't and why. Our birth certs don't expire OR change with marriage/divorce.

I gave you a list of documents you'll need to have, time frames and which must have Apostille or translated based on American/Portuguese agreements. 

Here's the link: US Marriage in Portugal


Highlights: 

"3. Certificate of "No Impediment" (Certificado de Capacidade Matrimonial). The Embassy provides a letter addressed to the Civil Registry regarding the impossibility, by law, of issuing a Certificate of "No Impediment"."

"Consular Certificate – The Portuguese authorities also require a consular certificate for marriage purposes. This consular certificate is based on the U.S. citizen’s registration at the consular section. We also provide a letter explaining that U.S. birth certificates do not contain any amendments regarding previous marriages.
It is your responsibility to produce the relevant documents, such as a divorce decree or death certificate, to prove that any previous marriage has been legally terminated. Those documents, like the birth certificate, must be certified and issued within the last six months (for mainland Portugal) or the last three months (for the Azores)."


Mneme - Once you've arrived, married an settled - I look forward to seeing you post to tell how it actually went. I'm confident enough to say that I know you'll also be able to tell the next person to relax and to give them a list of what is actually needed. 

At some point, I'll ask Siobhan if we can post a sticky for US needs based on actual SEF requirements.

Perhaps the UK members could take the time to do the same? It would be very helpful.


----------



## Mneme

It does seem like perhaps it's a bit more complicated for EU citizens than US. Maybe it's some sort of good karma for us since the requirements to bring our intended here are absurdly hard. :rofl:

But seriously, it seems EU Birth Certificates are more complicated than US ones. 

I am wondering where to send my divorce papers for verification- whether to wait here in the US for the consulate to do it (they said it could take a few weeks) or get the heck out of dodge so I can be with my fiance already as soon as I have them in hand and do them in Portugal. 

My divorce will FINALLY be over around Jan first. I don't want to wait a day longer but I will if I have to.

Blackirishgirl- you have been a huge help and I agree, stickies on the US VS EU requirements would be very helpful! All I know is I'm driving myself and the various agencies crazy rechecking, and they're very insistent that the requirements for a US citizen are pretty cut and dry. I think the disconnect lies in the blanket of information being for both the EU and US...


----------



## Catx

Home from yet another trip to the Conservatoria - this time with a date and provisional time for our wedding :clap2::clap2:

The requirement for recently issued birth certificates is not only a requirement for Portuguese citizens. Irish birth certs do not change either, but I had to have new copies issued showing a recent date of issue.

Your Consulate do not need translations, they speak your language. The translations are for the Conservatoria which is a Portuguese institution. They need everything translated and notarised before being presented to them but, as my recent experience proves, that is not necessarily going to satisfy the Conservatoria.

Once again the very best of luck and I look forward to you feeling as happy as I do today, knowing that I will indeed marry a wonderful Portuguese citizen.


----------



## Mneme

So happy to hear that it worked out for you.

I guess I'm not explaining myself well... the Consulate said they'd do the translations and stamp of approval for me rather than hiring someone to do it.


----------



## Catx

Mneme said:


> So happy to hear that it worked out for you.
> 
> I guess I'm not explaining myself well... the Consulate said they'd do the translations and stamp of approval for me rather than hiring someone to do it.


That will make life easier! The Irish Embassy used to do that until recently - now they give a list of suggested translators. Embassy translations and approval should make your path smoother. Double check, though, about the recent birth and marriage certs. My understanding is that all marriage applications require them.

Thanks a million for your good wishes. I look forward to doing the same for you before too long.


----------



## Mneme

Catx said:


> That will make life easier! The Irish Embassy used to do that until recently - now they give a list of suggested translators. Embassy translations and approval should make your path smoother. Double check, though, about the recent birth and marriage certs. My understanding is that all marriage applications require them.
> 
> Thanks a million for your good wishes. I look forward to doing the same for you before too long.



Lol, check back in January then.  Best wishes for your wedding! Gosh where are you going for your honeymoon? You're already in such a beautiful country.


----------



## Itoldacooljoke

anapedrosa said:


> Hi Mneme,
> I'm a Canadian-Portuguese planning to move to Portugal with my Canadian 'common-law'. The consulate here offered me similar advice to what you have receive, though I am told our common law status will be recognized.
> I just wanted to comment on the financial means - I believe (though you'd want to confirm) that the minimal subsistence level is set based on the minimum wage, which is very low in Portugal. I also read on another forum that at the moment, it is set at 72% of the minimal wage, that is 342 euros a month or 4140 euros annually.
> That may put your mind at ease with regards to the financial aspect.


Hi Ana,

Where did you check the "72% of the minimal wage" requirement? That is not mentioned on SEF's website at all. I am still a full time MBA student (still a dependent of my parents) and also attempting to sponsor my american fiancee (soon to be wife). When I called SEF and mentioned over the phone that I do not have any income, they told me not to worry because I could present my bank account statement. Of course I understand that the aim is to verify that my soon to be wife is not a burden to the Portuguese Republic, but at least it is my understanding that in Portugal we don't have an "affidavit of support" like the US requires in the equivalent situation. 

* Familiar do cidadão da UE nacional de Estado terceiro = Cartão de Residência /Relatives to EU Citizens outside EU
Os familiares do cidadão da União nacionais de Estado terceiro cuja estada no território nacional se prolongue por período superior a três meses devem solicitar a emissão de um cartão de residência (este cartão é emitido no prazo máximo de três meses a contar da apresentação do pedido). If staying for longer than 3 months, should request residence card
Documentos necessários (a entregar junto com modelo próprio na Delegação do SEF mais próximo da área de residência) Documents
- Duas fotografias tipo passe com fundo branco Passport photos
- Requerimento devidamente preenchido Form
- Cópia das páginas com movimentos do passaporte válido e actualizado Copy of passport pages 
- Documento de identificação do cidadão da União (Certificado de registo, cartão de residência ou bilhete de identidade) EU citizen ID/Passport
- Documento comprovativo da relação de parentesco invocada: Proof of relationship; in case of marriage, marriage certificate
* Cônjuges - Certidão de narrativa completa de nascimento ou assento de casamento 
* União de facto - Certidões de nascimento de ambos e documento comprovativo da vida em comum há pelo menos 2 anos
* Descendentes - Assento de nascimento
* Enteados - Assento de nascimento e cartão de residência do progenitor
* Ascendentes do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cidadão da União
* Ascendentes do cônjuge do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cônjuge do cidadão da União e cartão de residência do cônjuge do cidadão da União
Nota: Os documentos emitidos fora de território nacional devem ser autenticados e reconhecidos pelas autoridades consulares portuguesas no país de origem ou pelas representações diplomáticas do país de origem em Portugal ou pelas autoridades consulares de países membros da União Europeia.

I need someone who speaks Portuguese to help me with this last part, I honestly don't think it has anything to do with marriage
Documentos específicos:
- Prova de familiares a cargo (quando necessário); 
- Ascendentes (até aos 65 anos de idade) - IRS com a indicação dos dependentes a cargo;
- Maiores de 21 anos - matrícula escolar e outros meios de prova;
Taxa devida: 15 euros


----------



## Mneme

Itoldacooljoke said:


> Hi Ana,
> 
> Where did you check the "72% of the minimal wage" requirement? That is not mentioned on SEF's website at all. I am still a full time MBA student (still a dependent of my parents) and also attempting to sponsor my american fiancee (soon to be wife). When I called SEF and mentioned over the phone that I do not have any income, they told me not to worry because I could present my bank account statement.
> 
> * Familiar do cidadão da UE nacional de Estado terceiro = Cartão de Residência
> Os familiares do cidadão da União nacionais de Estado terceiro cuja estada no território nacional se prolongue por período superior a três meses devem solicitar a emissão de um cartão de residência (este cartão é emitido no prazo máximo de três meses a contar da apresentação do pedido).
> Documentos necessários (a entregar junto com modelo próprio na Delegação do SEF mais próximo da área de residência)
> - Duas fotografias tipo passe com fundo branco
> - Requerimento devidamente preenchido
> - Cópia das páginas com movimentos do passaporte válido e actualizado
> - Documento de identificação do cidadão da União (Certificado de registo, cartão de residência ou bilhete de identidade)
> - Documento comprovativo da relação de parentesco invocada:
> * Cônjuges - Certidão de narrativa completa de nascimento ou assento de casamento
> * União de facto - Certidões de nascimento de ambos e documento comprovativo da vida em comum há pelo menos 2 anos
> * Descendentes - Assento de nascimento
> * Enteados - Assento de nascimento e cartão de residência do progenitor
> * Ascendentes do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cidadão da União
> * Ascendentes do cônjuge do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cônjuge do cidadão da União e cartão de residência do cônjuge do cidadão da União
> Nota: Os documentos emitidos fora de território nacional devem ser autenticados e reconhecidos pelas autoridades consulares portuguesas no país de origem ou pelas representações diplomáticas do país de origem em Portugal ou pelas autoridades consulares de países membros da União Europeia.
> 
> Documentos específicos:
> - Prova de familiares a cargo (quando necessário);
> - Ascendentes (até aos 65 anos de idade) - IRS com a indicação dos dependentes a cargo;
> - Maiores de 21 anos - matrícula escolar e outros meios de prova;
> Taxa devida: 15 euros


We are still trying to figure this out as well. It doesn't seem like there's any set rules about this- anywhere. And SEF never answers the phone.


----------



## Itoldacooljoke

Mneme said:


> We are still trying to figure this out as well. It doesn't seem like there's any set rules about this- anywhere. And SEF never answers the phone.


Hey Mneme,

They do, but they seem extremely relaxed about this... Its like they acknowledge my right as a EU citizen to bring a spouse and they don't seem strict about requirements! So strange. The legislation applicable Portal SEF. It is extremely confusing... BlackIrishGirl, I believe we can only rely on you since you already went through the process.


----------



## Mneme

Itoldacooljoke said:


> Hey Mneme,
> 
> They do, but they seem extremely relaxed about this... The legislation applicable Portal SEF. It is extremely confusing... BlackIrishGirl, I believe we can only rely on you since you already went through the process.


They very often don't answer at the SEF on Madeira. And Blackirishgirl and I have become pretty close through all this. She's very helpful. She says it'll be fine. But the one time we got through to someone at SEF on Madeira was... not so helpful. Oh, and we got through another time and they told us all we needed was my passport and birth certificate. There's a lot of misinformation. A lot. And I know for a fact they need more than just my birth certificate and passport. Sorry, I'm at a place where I'm very frustrated and people are frustrated with me for being so frustrated. 

I think it comes down to who you get, what kind of day they're having and whether or not they know the real laws. And I'm basing my entire future on this by going to Madeira in a month hoping they'll let me extend my stay if my divorce papers don't make it in time. 

Blackirishgirl has been wonderful. Very helpful and supportive. But she had a very good experience. I just hope mine is half as good as hers.

I would say figure out what you need to get married first, then deal with SEF. I hear getting married is the hard part.


----------



## Itoldacooljoke

Mneme said:


> They very often don't answer at the SEF on Madeira. And Blackirishgirl and I have become pretty close through all this. She's very helpful. She says it'll be fine. But the one time we got through to someone at SEF on Madeira was... not so helpful. Oh, and we got through another time and they told us all we needed was my passport and birth certificate. There's a lot of misinformation. A lot. And I know for a fact they need more than just my birth certificate and passport. Sorry, I'm at a place where I'm very frustrated and people are frustrated with me for being so frustrated.
> 
> I think it comes down to who you get, what kind of day they're having and whether or not they know the real laws. And I'm basing my entire future on this by going to Madeira in a month hoping they'll let me extend my stay if my divorce papers don't make it in time.
> 
> Blackirishgirl has been wonderful. Very helpful and supportive. But she had a very good experience. I just hope mine is half as good as hers.
> 
> I would say figure out what you need to get married first, then deal with SEF. I hear getting married is the hard part.



Mneme,

You can schedule an appointment with them. That is probably what I am going to do in order to get everything straight. But what were the documents BlackIrishGirl told you you need? And what are you having translated into Portuguese?


----------



## Mneme

Itoldacooljoke said:


> Mneme,
> 
> You can schedule an appointment with them. That is probably what I am going to do in order to get everything straight. But what were the documents BlackIrishGirl told you you need? And what are you having translated into Portuguese?


US fiance needs to have:

-Drivers licence Appostiled
-Birth certificate and divorce papers (if applicable) sent to the consulate in DC (or the nearest one) to be authenticated, translated and stamped. They charge. For mine and my daughter's it will be about 150, so do the math.

-From the US embassy in Portugal she will need a letter stating that they do not issue a letter of no impediment and a letter stating that US birth certificates do not change. 

All of these things- birth certificate etc need to have been issued in the_ last six months._ Vitalchek.com can get them to her faster than applying wherever they are issued unless she lives where she was born. 

The Portuguese consulate in DC also told me I'd need to bring an FBI criminal background check. Blackirishgirl said this is not true but I am sending for it anyway. I think it's a good idea to have it. Because eventually I hear they ask for it. And it takes months to come.

I have the feeling I am forgetting something, but then I always feel that way about this. I'm at the end of my rope. I hope that things go easier for your fiance.

I am hoping that I can take copies of my divorce documents that will be emailed to me and have them notarized and that will be good enough. But in the end it's very likely I'll need an extension to my tourist visa. Blackirishgirl insists they will give me one. Everywhere else I read they don't like to do that, and SEF told my fiance they don't do it. I'm choosing to trust Blackirishgirl.

Everything has to be translated by a notary by the way. And 'authenticated' by them.


----------



## Itoldacooljoke

Mneme said:


> US fiance needs to have:
> 
> -Drivers licence Appostiled
> -Birth certificate and divorce papers (if applicable) sent to the consulate in DC (or the nearest one) to be authenticated, translated and stamped. They charge. For mine and my daughter's it will be about 150, so do the math.
> 
> -From the US embassy in Portugal she will need a letter stating that they do not issue a letter of no impediment and a letter stating that US birth certificates do not change.
> 
> All of these things- birth certificate etc need to have been issued in the_ last six months._ Vitalchek.com can get them to her faster than applying wherever they are issued unless she lives where she was born.
> 
> The Portuguese consulate in DC also told me I'd need to bring an FBI criminal background check. Blackirishgirl said this is not true but I am sending for it anyway. I think it's a good idea to have it. Because eventually I hear they ask for it. And it takes months to come.
> 
> I have the feeling I am forgetting something, but then I always feel that way about this. I'm at the end of my rope. I hope that things go easier for your fiance.
> 
> I am hoping that I can take copies of my divorce documents that will be emailed to me and have them notarized and that will be good enough. But in the end it's very likely I'll need an extension to my tourist visa. Blackirishgirl insists they will give me one. Everywhere else I read they don't like to do that, and SEF told my fiance they don't do it. I'm choosing to trust Blackirishgirl.
> 
> Everything has to be translated by a notary by the way. And 'authenticated' by them.


What about the documents your portuguese husband has to present? IRS statement? Lease? Or is it just his passport/ID and marriage certificate?


----------



## Mneme

Itoldacooljoke said:


> What about the documents your portuguese husband has to present? IRS statement? Lease? Or is it just his passport/ID and marriage certificate?


I don't know. He can't get anyone to pick up at SEF. He works during the day and he has been trying to call in the mornings and they just don't answer. Blackirishgirl says they just had her fiance sign something saying that he'll support her. Someone else told me they ask for bank statements and "all kinds of personal details". He owns his house. I don't know what they want. I wish I did. Sorry.

I am risking a lot to go there and be told whether or not he makes enough in their eyes to support myself and my 3 year old. There don't seem to *be* facts. It really seems to just be....up to whoever you get.


----------



## anapedrosa

Itoldacooljoke said:


> Hi Ana,
> 
> Where did you check the "72% of the minimal wage" requirement? That is not mentioned on SEF's website at all. I am still a full time MBA student (still a dependent of my parents) and also attempting to sponsor my american fiancee (soon to be wife). When I called SEF and mentioned over the phone that I do not have any income, they told me not to worry because I could present my bank account statement. Of course I understand that the aim is to verify that my soon to be wife is not a burden to the Portuguese Republic, but at least it is my understanding that in Portugal we don't have an "affidavit of support" like the US requires in the equivalent situation.
> 
> * Familiar do cidadão da UE nacional de Estado terceiro = Cartão de Residência /Relatives to EU Citizens outside EU
> Os familiares do cidadão da União nacionais de Estado terceiro cuja estada no território nacional se prolongue por período superior a três meses devem solicitar a emissão de um cartão de residência (este cartão é emitido no prazo máximo de três meses a contar da apresentação do pedido). If staying for longer than 3 months, should request residence card
> Documentos necessários (a entregar junto com modelo próprio na Delegação do SEF mais próximo da área de residência) Documents
> - Duas fotografias tipo passe com fundo branco Passport photos
> - Requerimento devidamente preenchido Form
> - Cópia das páginas com movimentos do passaporte válido e actualizado Copy of passport pages
> - Documento de identificação do cidadão da União (Certificado de registo, cartão de residência ou bilhete de identidade) EU citizen ID/Passport
> - Documento comprovativo da relação de parentesco invocada: Proof of relationship; in case of marriage, marriage certificate
> * Cônjuges - Certidão de narrativa completa de nascimento ou assento de casamento
> * União de facto - Certidões de nascimento de ambos e documento comprovativo da vida em comum há pelo menos 2 anos
> * Descendentes - Assento de nascimento
> * Enteados - Assento de nascimento e cartão de residência do progenitor
> * Ascendentes do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cidadão da União
> * Ascendentes do cônjuge do cidadão da União - Assento de nascimento do cônjuge do cidadão da União e cartão de residência do cônjuge do cidadão da União
> Nota: Os documentos emitidos fora de território nacional devem ser autenticados e reconhecidos pelas autoridades consulares portuguesas no país de origem ou pelas representações diplomáticas do país de origem em Portugal ou pelas autoridades consulares de países membros da União Europeia.
> 
> I need someone who speaks Portuguese to help me with this last part, I honestly don't think it has anything to do with marriage
> Documentos específicos:
> - Prova de familiares a cargo (quando necessário);
> - Ascendentes (até aos 65 anos de idade) - IRS com a indicação dos dependentes a cargo;
> - Maiores de 21 anos - matrícula escolar e outros meios de prova;
> Taxa devida: 15 euros


Hi,

As I mentioned in my post, the information regarding the 72% came from another forum. I don't know if this applies to family reunification (e.g. if you have Portuguese citizenship). I haven't worried about this too much as I will have retirement income, but the context of the other thread was a UK citizen seeking Portuguese residence. Here is the requirement that started the thread.
for residence, you have to show that:
"a) that you are working or are self-employed, or
b) you have sufficient funds to support yourself and your family (if
appropriate), or
c) you are enrolled on a course of study and have sufficient funds to support
yourself and your family (if appropriate)."

when someone asked if it was subjective (they received inconsistent responses from the camara) - here is the answer posted by another member:

No it isn't, the minimum is established by law. The Portaria 1563/2007 says that it's the minimal salaryfor the 1rst adult, the second adult half of it and children 30%):

Artigo 2.o
Meios de subsistência
1 — Para efeitos da presente portaria, considera-se «Meios de subsistência» os recursos estáveis e regulares que sejam suficientes para as necessidades essenciais do cidadão estrangeiro e, quando seja o caso, da sua família, designadamente para alimentação, alojamento e cuidados de saúde e higiene, nos termos do disposto na presente portaria.
2 — O critério de determinação dos meios de subsistên- cia é efectuado por referência à retribuição mínima mensal garantida nos termos do n.o 1 do artigo 266.o do Código do Trabalho, adiante designada por RMMG, atenta a respec- tiva natureza e regularidade, líquida de quotizações para
a segurança social com a seguinte valoração per capita em cada agregado familiar:
a) Primeiro adulto 100 %; b) Segundo ou mais adultos 50 %; c) Crianças e jovens com idade inferior a 18 anos e
filhos maiores a cargo 30 %.
3 — Para a entrada e permanência de cidadão estran- geiro titular de visto de trânsito, de curta duração ou ad- mitido sem exigência de visto nos termos de convenções internacionais de que Portugal seja parte ao abrigo do disposto no artigo 11.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho, deve o mesmo deter ou estar em condições de adquirir legalmente, em meios de pagamento, per capita, o equi- valente a 75 € por cada entrada, acrescido de 40 € por cada dia de permanência.
4 — Os quantitativos referidos no número anterior po- dem ser dispensados ao cidadão estrangeiro que prove ter alojamento e alimentação assegurados durante a respectiva estada ou que apresente termo de responsabilidade, ao abrigo do artigo 12.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho.
5 — O cidadão que subscreva o termo de responsabi- lidade a que se refere o número anterior deve dispor de meios de subsistência determinados nos termos do disposto no n.o 2.
:

http://www.sef.pt/portal/v10/PT/aspx/legislacao/legislacao_detalhe.aspx?id_linha=4884#0

And the Portaria 760/2009 says that, exceptionally, given the crisis, 50% of the minimal salary is acceptable


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## Mneme

anapedrosa said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I mentioned in my post, the information regarding the 72% came from another forum. I don't know if this applies to family reunification (e.g. if you have Portuguese citizenship). I haven't worried about this too much as I will have retirement income, but the context of the other thread was a UK citizen seeking Portuguese residence. Here is the requirement that started the thread.
> for residence, you have to show that:
> "a) that you are working or are self-employed, or
> b) you have sufficient funds to support yourself and your family (if
> appropriate), or
> c) you are enrolled on a course of study and have sufficient funds to support
> yourself and your family (if appropriate)."
> 
> when someone asked if it was subjective (they received inconsistent responses from the camara) - here is the answer posted by another member:
> 
> No it isn't, the minimum is established by law. The Portaria 1563/2007 says that it's the minimal salaryfor the 1rst adult, the second adult half of it and children 30%):
> 
> Artigo 2.o
> Meios de subsistência
> 1 — Para efeitos da presente portaria, considera-se «Meios de subsistência» os recursos estáveis e regulares que sejam suficientes para as necessidades essenciais do cidadão estrangeiro e, quando seja o caso, da sua família, designadamente para alimentação, alojamento e cuidados de saúde e higiene, nos termos do disposto na presente portaria.
> 2 — O critério de determinação dos meios de subsistên- cia é efectuado por referência à retribuição mínima mensal garantida nos termos do n.o 1 do artigo 266.o do Código do Trabalho, adiante designada por RMMG, atenta a respec- tiva natureza e regularidade, líquida de quotizações para
> a segurança social com a seguinte valoração per capita em cada agregado familiar:
> a) Primeiro adulto 100 %; b) Segundo ou mais adultos 50 %; c) Crianças e jovens com idade inferior a 18 anos e
> filhos maiores a cargo 30 %.
> 3 — Para a entrada e permanência de cidadão estran- geiro titular de visto de trânsito, de curta duração ou ad- mitido sem exigência de visto nos termos de convenções internacionais de que Portugal seja parte ao abrigo do disposto no artigo 11.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho, deve o mesmo deter ou estar em condições de adquirir legalmente, em meios de pagamento, per capita, o equi- valente a 75 € por cada entrada, acrescido de 40 € por cada dia de permanência.
> 4 — Os quantitativos referidos no número anterior po- dem ser dispensados ao cidadão estrangeiro que prove ter alojamento e alimentação assegurados durante a respectiva estada ou que apresente termo de responsabilidade, ao abrigo do artigo 12.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho.
> 5 — O cidadão que subscreva o termo de responsabi- lidade a que se refere o número anterior deve dispor de meios de subsistência determinados nos termos do disposto no n.o 2.
> :
> 
> Portal SEF
> 
> And the Portaria 760/2009 says that, exceptionally, given the crisis, 50% of the minimal salary is acceptable


I really wish you had posted this when you told me about it. I sold my car and all my things to find out that my fiance doesn't make enough according to this....


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## Itoldacooljoke

anapedrosa said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I mentioned in my post, the information regarding the 72% came from another forum. I don't know if this applies to family reunification (e.g. if you have Portuguese citizenship). I haven't worried about this too much as I will have retirement income, but the context of the other thread was a UK citizen seeking Portuguese residence. Here is the requirement that started the thread.
> for residence, you have to show that:
> "a) that you are working or are self-employed, or
> b) you have sufficient funds to support yourself and your family (if
> appropriate), or
> c) you are enrolled on a course of study and have sufficient funds to support
> yourself and your family (if appropriate)."
> 
> when someone asked if it was subjective (they received inconsistent responses from the camara) - here is the answer posted by another member:
> 
> No it isn't, the minimum is established by law. The Portaria 1563/2007 says that it's the minimal salaryfor the 1rst adult, the second adult half of it and children 30%):
> 
> Artigo 2.o
> Meios de subsistência
> 1 — Para efeitos da presente portaria, considera-se «Meios de subsistência» os recursos estáveis e regulares que sejam suficientes para as necessidades essenciais do cidadão estrangeiro e, quando seja o caso, da sua família, designadamente para alimentação, alojamento e cuidados de saúde e higiene, nos termos do disposto na presente portaria.
> 2 — O critério de determinação dos meios de subsistên- cia é efectuado por referência à retribuição mínima mensal garantida nos termos do n.o 1 do artigo 266.o do Código do Trabalho, adiante designada por RMMG, atenta a respec- tiva natureza e regularidade, líquida de quotizações para
> a segurança social com a seguinte valoração per capita em cada agregado familiar:
> a) Primeiro adulto 100 %; b) Segundo ou mais adultos 50 %; c) Crianças e jovens com idade inferior a 18 anos e
> filhos maiores a cargo 30 %.
> 3 — Para a entrada e permanência de cidadão estran- geiro titular de visto de trânsito, de curta duração ou ad- mitido sem exigência de visto nos termos de convenções internacionais de que Portugal seja parte ao abrigo do disposto no artigo 11.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho, deve o mesmo deter ou estar em condições de adquirir legalmente, em meios de pagamento, per capita, o equi- valente a 75 € por cada entrada, acrescido de 40 € por cada dia de permanência.
> 4 — Os quantitativos referidos no número anterior po- dem ser dispensados ao cidadão estrangeiro que prove ter alojamento e alimentação assegurados durante a respectiva estada ou que apresente termo de responsabilidade, ao abrigo do artigo 12.o da Lei n.o 23/2007, de 4 de Julho.
> 5 — O cidadão que subscreva o termo de responsabi- lidade a que se refere o número anterior deve dispor de meios de subsistência determinados nos termos do disposto no n.o 2.
> :
> 
> Portal SEF
> 
> And the Portaria 760/2009 says that, exceptionally, given the crisis, 50% of the minimal salary is acceptable



OK... But this just does not make any sense of what so ever. The minimum wage in Portugal is €485 and someone that earns that per month can hardly survive on their own. So if SEF is accepting an income of €242,5 to sponsor a someone, it is worrying...


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> I really wish you had posted this when you told me about it. I sold my car and all my things to find out that my fiance doesn't make enough according to this....


As I said - I do not know if this applies in the case of family reunification. This was posted by a UK resident seeking residency. 

If it does - it seems to me to require a basic income, that is very low compared to our standards in North America. I'm not sure I would plan a move to another country if I didn't have a basic income to support myself.


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## anapedrosa

Itoldacooljoke said:


> OK... But this just does not make any sense of what so ever. The minimum wage in Portugal is €485 and someone that earns that per month can hardly survive on their own. So if SEF is accepting an income of €242,5 to sponsor a someone, it is worrying...


I agree - I wouldn't want to have to live on that little.


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## Itoldacooljoke

Itoldacooljoke said:


> OK... But this just does not make any sense of what so ever. The minimum wage in Portugal is €485 and someone that earns that per month can hardly survive on their own. So if SEF is accepting an income of €242,5 to sponsor a someone, it is worrying...


Very important. I think I solved the financial criteria issue. 

In case of marriage, if someone is just sponsoring a spouse (1 household member) - 100% - the EU citizen must make at least €485 per month OR show sufficient funds that show the ability to support his spouse for longer than a year. IMHO, since the residence card is valid for 5 years (60months) and the EU citizen is currently not working, if assets in the ammount of €29,000 are shown, it should be ok. (€485x60months). 

Mnem, since your spouse is sponsoring you and your child (under 18) - 130%, he should earn €630,5 per month (at least) or show evidence of assets that could support the household for longer than 12months. (Note: I made calculations above for 5 months just as a reference, mainly because I am not working. It is pretty much an extreme situation.. maybe too extreme since you can file for citizenship after 3 years) So following my logic, you should show proof of assets worth €37,830.

The 50% off mentioned by Ana on the ammounts I mention is only used in extreme circumstances which are not explained... As I said before, even with the minimum wage, it is impossible to support a family of 2.


Artigo 9.º
Reagrupamento familiar
O cidadão estrangeiro que requeira o reagrupamento 
familiar deve dispor, no seu agregado familiar, de meios 
de subsistência determinados nos termos do disposto nos 
n.
os 
1 e 2 do artigo 2.º, assegurados por período não inferior 
a 12 meses.


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## Itoldacooljoke

anapedrosa said:


> I'm not sure I would plan a move to another country if I didn't have a basic income to support myself.


Ana, 

But if you would be relocating and would have a spouse sponsoring you to stay there, unless you were working ilegally, you wouldn't be able to work until you got your permission.


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## anapedrosa

Itoldacooljoke said:


> Ana,
> 
> But if you would be relocating and would have a spouse sponsoring you to stay there, unless you were working ilegally, you wouldn't be able to work until you got your permission.


Forgive me - I'm not being clear (my fault - trying to discuss this on this forum while writing a report is not my best practice).

I agree with you - I wasn't thinking in terms of working. I am pretty certain that I'm quite a bit older than you or Meme. I am looking at retirement, so my earnings are investment earnings. I've also got a lower risk profile at this age. When I was younger, I most likely would have made the move on a song and a prayer, especially if someone I loved was on the other end. 

BTW: I believe that the extreme conditions refer to the current economic conditions, but I'd have to go read the whole thread to figure it out. And, as with anything on these forums - you are best off confirming everything with official and legal sources.


----------



## blackirishgirl

All I have to add is that under Family Reunification - everything is different. It's not difficult and SEF makes it fairly easy. I can only speak for my experiences.

I used to look at all the information that people have posted here and went crazy UNTIL we went to SEF and they said none of what I'd read applied. FAMILY REUNIFICATION - Different Rules!


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## Itoldacooljoke

blackirishgirl said:


> All I have to add is that under Family Reunification - everything is different. It's not difficult and SEF makes it fairly easy. I can only speak for my experiences.
> 
> I used to look at all the information that people have posted here and went crazy UNTIL we went to SEF and they said none of what I'd read applied. FAMILY REUNIFICATION - Different Rules!


HAHA... I just read about what you are talking about. Term of responsibiliy...
Could I just ask you to answer my pm about documents?


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## blackirishgirl

Let me say again that I am not an expert in this topic. I can only relate what I know about the law and my own experiences with SEF coming in under the family reunification act.

I'll answer your PM this evening Itoldacooljoke.


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## Mneme

anapedrosa said:


> As I said - I do not know if this applies in the case of family reunification. This was posted by a UK resident seeking residency.
> 
> If it does - it seems to me to require a basic income, that is very low compared to our standards in North America. I'm not sure I would plan a move to another country if I didn't have a basic income to support myself.


I don't see how you can move to another country and have a basic income when you can't WORK when you get there. 

Basically the information you posted was for people who are moving there on a residential visa- that have to prove they can support themselves. Not reunification of family. And this thread was not about residential visas. I made that clear multiple times. I'm not sure why you didn't post the source and extra information when I asked you where it came from the first time, but whatever. All it has done is frighten and confuse me. As well as make me feel condescended to. 



-------
Itoldacooljoke: Things cost much much less in Portugal. People can and do support themselves and their families on less than 500 euros a month. 


------
I'm pretty much done here. I appreciate people trying to help, but if you're going to try maybe you should actually provide _ relevant_ information. If you're going to give information, post sources. If you're going to tell someone that you've been there and you want to help and you went crazy about it yourself then _don't get upset when they do the same thing you did, yell at them and then ditch them. _


:wave:


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## anapedrosa

Mneme said:


> I don't see how you can move to another country and have a basic income when you can't WORK when you get there.
> 
> Basically the information you posted was for people who are moving there on a residential visa- that have to prove they can support themselves. Not reunification of family. And this thread was not about residential visas. I made that clear multiple times. I'm not sure why you didn't post the source and extra information when I asked you where it came from the first time, but whatever. All it has done is frighten and confuse me. As well as make me feel condescended to.
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> Itoldacooljoke: Things cost much much less in Portugal. People can and do support themselves and their families on less than 500 euros a month.
> 
> 
> ------
> I'm pretty much done here. I appreciate people trying to help, but if you're going to try maybe you should actually provide _ relevant_ information. If you're going to give information, post sources. If you're going to tell someone that you've been there and you want to help and you went crazy about it yourself then _don't get upset when they do the same thing you did, yell at them and then ditch them. _
> 
> 
> :wave:


Meme - I did try and qualify what I was saying - I'm sorry if it was off topic - it was not my intent to frighten nor to be condescending. 
I do not know your circumstances and I should not have been presumptuous in terms of what you are able to live off of. Perhaps you have family who are going to help you, I will be living off my retirement income.
I'll get off this thread - I just have to figure out how to turn off the notifications. I do not and did not yell - but it seems you felt comfortable doing that to me. Good luck with your move and your life in Portugal.


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## Melzinha

*Hi everyone/ some questions*

Hi all, I hope people are still reading this thread. I've been reading and I'm in a similar position as for marrying a Portuguese. I've been and lived in Portugal several time and me and my boyfriend have decided to get married in February 2012. However, I go back in about a month. So I'm trying to get my ducks in a row. My question is this : Does my birth certificate need to be apostilled? Or will sending it to the consulate to be stamped, certified and translated be enough? Sorry, I am a little fuzzy on this detail. Everything else I think I have figured out. Thanks a million.


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## silvers

Marriage in Portugal


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## blackirishgirl

If you're from the USA, you can handle it a couple of ways:

1. Take your less than 6 months old original copy of your birth certificate to the nearest Portuguese Embassy/Consulate. They'll authenticate it for *about* $40.

2. Send it to the originating state's Secretary of State asking for an Apostille.

3. Bring it with you and drop by (I have no idea if this is possible for you) the US Embassy in Lisbon, where they'll take care of it for you in addition to giving you their "wedding" packet that will also take care of some other issues you haven't asked about but may/may not know about- *about *€70 total.

Just remember that even though our birth certs don't alter with any life events, that you should bring one that's 6 months old or less for the mainland and 3 months for the islands (Açores and Madeira).

You'll also have to have it translated.

PM me for any help - "one American to another"  including driver's license exchange, etc. Us non-EU folk have things a bit different than the British, etc.


----------



## Melzinha

blackirishgirl said:


> If you're from the USA, you can handle it a couple of ways:
> 
> 1. Take your less than 6 months old original copy of your birth certificate to the nearest Portuguese Embassy/Consulate. They'll authenticate it for *about* $40.
> 
> 2. Send it to the originating state's Secretary of State asking for an Apostille.
> 
> 3. Bring it with you and drop by (I have no idea if this is possible for you) the US Embassy in Lisbon, where they'll take care of it for you in addition to giving you their "wedding" packet that will also take care of some other issues you haven't asked about but may/may not know about- *about *€70 total.
> 
> Just remember that even though our birth certs don't alter with any life events, that you should bring one that's 6 months old or less for the mainland and 3 months for the islands (Açores and Madeira).
> 
> You'll also have to have it translated.
> 
> PM me for any help - "one American to another"  including driver's license exchange, etc. Us non-EU folk have things a bit different than the British, etc.


It's odd because I totally know I responded and it posted, yet I dont see it!!! To make what I said short, basically it was : Thanks for the response! I ordered the apostilled copy on Friday and I am very glad you in particular responded. I live in Porto and I see you do too! We should have coffee or something ha ha. Obrigadissimaaaaaa por tudo


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## blackirishgirl

Post a few more times so we can PM contact details and meet!


----------

