# Rushing to register or change



## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

Has anyone noticed the number of postings on this and other forums for information on getting residencia and changing driving licences........ wonder how many of these people have lived here for many years, now panic stricken?


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

Well, given there was no legal reason to change a simple B category photocard driving licence before its expiry date (other circumstances may apply), I think it's understandable that there is now some panic about the official advice that they suddenly become invalid on the 12 April.

Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Would that be 12 April 2020


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

Isobella said:


> Would that be 12 April 2020


That would definitely be an improvement! Maybe instead of changing the last two digits they could start with the first; 12 April 3020 works for me.

Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There is certainly a massive increase in residency applications, with long waiting times in some places just to get an appointment at the Extranjeria. It would be interesting to know how many of these are people trying to regularise their status, and how many are new arrivals fleeing the sinking ship that is the UK. I know of people in both categories.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Isobella said:


> Would that be 12 April 2020


It's actually 9 months after the UK leaves (if they do in fact leave)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

All the Brits I know who are either resident or non resident but own property here have received a demand for payment for the tax year 2014 from the Agencia Tributaria. The letters are delivered by courier and have to be signed for.
I got a demand for several thousands of euros!!! I submitted a return in 2014 and have no idea why I have been asked for this amount which is certainly nothing like what I have to pay. My accountant says not to worry, it ‘s only a ‘suggestion’.
Is this only happening in Málaga?


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I live in Malaga province in my own property. My son had two holiday homes here. Neither of us have had any communications from AEAT (Hacienda)

I do know of anyone who has either.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Not heard of this from anyone around here


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm a resident in Málaga province (and have been since late 2006), own my own home. I have received no letters from AEAT.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I was looking on line at the police web site for making appointments for EU Citizen Reg. in Malaga and four other provinces I chose at random, non showed a possibility to be able to register 

I heard a couple of weeks ago that Malaga were no longer offering appointments for after 29th March and had cancelled those they had made, waiting to see what will be the requirements after Brexit I have no idea if that applies elsewhere 

I do know that many of the applicants are those who have never registered or whose details have change but who have not amended the registration. Maybe many who thought laws and regulations were not for them.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> All the Brits I know who are either resident or non resident but own property here have received a demand for payment for the tax year 2014 from the Agencia Tributaria. The letters are delivered by courier and have to be signed for.
> I got a demand for several thousands of euros!!! I submitted a return in 2014 and have no idea why I have been asked for this amount which is certainly nothing like what I have to pay. My accountant says not to worry, it ‘s only a ‘suggestion’.
> Is this only happening in Málaga?


The Agencia Tributaria are definitely on a mission! Someone I know who rents out their UK property recently got a demand for tax on the rental income. (They had already paid it in the UK so had to sort it out with HMRC.) But I read recently that millions of uncollected tax revenues have been reclaimed. Let's hope your case isn't an indication of the level of accuracy in their database...


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

According to official website even those who haven't registered by Brexit but have been living in Spain ( under radar) will still have an opportunity to become legal provided they are able to prove they have been living in Spain ( and presumably some difficult questions about potential tax and 720 things) So I'm afraid some people will go unpunished. Still it shows the Spanish government to be pretty decent about this. ( Well apart from PP who voted against the formalizing of this)


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

Juan C said:


> I do know that many of the applicants are those who have never registered or whose details have change but who have not amended the registration. Maybe many who thought laws and regulations were not for them.


Sounds like a bad time to move house! Blocking such people from amending their registration data would be forcing them to break the law - surely that cannot be true. 



Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I thought the concessions, post Brexit, depended on what happens, and if U.K. just crash out without an agreement all bets were off


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Juan C said:


> I thought the concessions, post Brexit, depended on what happens, and if U.K. just crash out without an agreement all bets were off


No, Spain has made detailed plans for British citizens living and working here if there is no deal. See the thread on Spanish government info.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The first thing they should do with those who have not registered for years & are now wanting to, is impose the 300€ fine for 'failing to register' then move them to the back of the queue so all of us who are properly registered can have appointments to change to the TIE.........again


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## Alf Tupper (Jun 23, 2018)

I think 3000€ would be a more appropriate amount as they have been receiving services they have not paid for.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alf Tupper said:


> I think 3000€ would be a more appropriate amount as they have been receiving services they have not paid for.


What services? I presume they have been paying IBI. They also pay IVA on everything they purchase.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> What services? I presume they have been paying IBI. They also pay IVA on everything they purchase.


And so have the people who pay income tax - it is supposed to be as well as, not instead of!


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

Do you have to put down your date of entry? Or, can you just lie?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> All the Brits I know who are either resident or non resident but own property here have received a demand for payment for the tax year 2014 from the Agencia Tributaria. The letters are delivered by courier and have to be signed for.
> I got a demand for several thousands of euros!!! I submitted a return in 2014 and have no idea why I have been asked for this amount which is certainly nothing like what I have to pay. My accountant says not to worry, it ‘s only a ‘suggestion’.
> Is this only happening in Málaga?


No, I am in Jaén. I had one for about 3000+ for the same year. Hacienda have cocked things up. Because of the incompatibility of the UK tax year with anywhere that works on a logical basis, HMRC have sent two figures for UK OAP - 2013-4 and 2014-5 and Hacienda, instead of taking ¼ of the first figure plus ¾ of the second to get a figure for 2014, have added the two amounts together and want tax on that amount.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> What services? I presume they have been paying IBI. They also pay IVA on everything they purchase.


There is a whole lot of infrastructure out there that is not covered by the tax on one's house (rates!) - how about all the roads which you, personally, may not use but all the food you eat passes over does as does the fuel; the railways which also carry the food and fuel and much much more. Parochialism is the basis of the ERG in the UK - I don't use it directly so why should I pay for it or be responsible for it.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> There is a whole lot of infrastructure out there that is not covered by the tax on one's house (rates!) - how about all the roads which you, personally, may not use but all the food you eat passes over does as does the fuel; the railways which also carry the food and fuel and much much more. Parochialism is the basis of the ERG in the UK - I don't use it directly so why should I pay for it or be responsible for it.


I get your point but it is not just expats, the Spanish are not exactly exemplary when it comes to tax declarations are they?

Back to those who live under the radar, particularly those with decent incomes. By registering they could be opening up a can of worms. Will be easy for the authorities to trace back for years as we leave our footprints everywhere these days.

BTW I did notice a post asking about registration a couple of months ago and it was clear from their previous posts they had been living there for a number of years.


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

I thought the statute of limitations was 4 years, so the authorities could only look at the last 4years.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Isobella said:


> *I get your point but it is not just expats, the Spanish are not exactly exemplary when it comes to tax declarations are they?
> *
> Back to those who live under the radar, particularly those with decent incomes. By registering they could be opening up a can of worms. Will be easy for the authorities to trace back for years as we leave our footprints everywhere these days.
> 
> BTW I did notice a post asking about registration a couple of months ago and it was clear from their previous posts they had been living there for a number of years.


That's just whataboutary, if everybody subscribed to that way of thinking no one would pay anything would they.

They don't pay, they get away with with it, so why should I and so should I.

As for those living under the radar with decent incomes opening a can of worms, well that's just tough, they should've thought about that before knowingly deciding to hide their income and status in the country they chose to live in as a guest.

I have no sympathy for them.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood me, I was just wondering why expats who don't pay up get you on the outrage bus when it is well known for tax evasion. Frankly I don't give a damn what people do with their financial affairs as long as mine are in order.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood me, I was just wondering why expats who don't pay up get you on the outrage bus when it is well known for tax evasion. Frankly I don't give a damn what people do with their financial affairs as long as mine are in order.


What gets up most [honest] people's noses is if some people underpay, it means the honest ones have to pay more to make up the shortfall.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Isobella said:


> Just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood me, I was just wondering why expats who don't pay up get you on the outrage bus when it is well known for tax evasion. Frankly I don't give a damn what people do with their financial affairs as long as mine are in order.


Oh I get outraged about tax evasion believe me, I think it's disgusting and immoral that multinationals get away with paying as little as possible using loopholes and the like.
The same as I get enraged with millionaires and billionaires hiding their money in tax havens to avoid paying their rightful dues as well.
Whether we like it or not, tax is a part of life and no matter where you live it has to be and should be paid and rightfully so whether it be Joe Bloggs or a multinational corporation.

And as Baldi states, those that don't pay their taxes (any tax, be it council tax, vat, etc etc) increase the burden on those that do. That includes you by the way because those that don't pay increase your burden.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Beach buddy said:


> I thought the statute of limitations was 4 years, so the authorities could only look at the last 4years.


One thing is the "statute of limitations" which in general is indeed 4 years, but another thing is how long after an event they can investigate.

For example, the statute of limitations set out in the tax law doesn't apply in the event that the non-payer is convicted of serious fraud. In this case the statute of limitations is set by the applicable criminal law and is 10 years.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood me, I was just wondering why expats who don't pay up get you on the outrage bus when it is well known for tax evasion. Frankly I don't give a damn what people do with their financial affairs as long as mine are in order.


I do give a damn. People who don't pay their taxes are effectively (a) stealing from me and (b) breaking the contract that makes capitalism acceptable. Doesn't matter what nationality they are.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> I do give a damn. People who don't pay their taxes are effectively (a) stealing from me and (b) breaking the contract that makes capitalism acceptable. Doesn't matter what nationality they are.


Absolutely. If the tax evader and the taxpayer start out with the same annual income, how is it fair (or defensible) that the tax evader ends up with more disposable income to spend on whatever they like than the person who meets their obligations, and may have to go without things they would like to have in order to do so?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Absolutely. If the tax evader and the taxpayer start out with the same annual income, how is it fair (or defensible) that the tax evader ends up with more disposable income to spend on whatever they like than the person who meets their obligations, and may have to go without things they would like to have in order to do so?


Yet most don't hesitate to use Facebook and Amazon etc.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> Yet most don't hesitate to use Facebook and Amazon etc.


 What's the connection here with the conversation between Alcalaina and Lynn? I don't get it.


I too am for people paying their dues instead of feeding off of others.
It just doesn't make sense that some contribute and others don't, but then some people help others in time of need and others go down another path...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> Just a friendly warning. I think you misunderstood me, I was just wondering why expats who don't pay up get you on the outrage bus when it is well known for tax evasion. Frankly I don't give a damn what people do with their financial affairs as long as mine are in order.


 I don't think anyone was talking about nationality when discussing paying taxes.
If everyone paid then maybe we wouldn't have to pay so much!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> *What's the connection here with the conversation between Alcalaina and Lynn? I don't get it.*


Curve- ball or diversionary tactics - haven't you come across it enough with Trumpisms? He creates diversions with insignificant but irritating matters so that you don't notice other more important things


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What's the connection here with the conversation between Alcalaina and Lynn? I don't get it.


I think she means that some multinationals like Facebook and Amazon do their best to avoid paying tax, so we are being hypocritical if we use them.


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

How many people watch British TV without a Licence.....Let he who is without sin.........


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Unlike some posters I have no idea of the financial situation of expats, or Spaniards. Not a thing I normally discuss in either countries with acquaintances or neighbours. assume many are living under the radar. But how much are we talking about? are your expat neighbours rich or are they just average pensioners who (wrongly) never got around to doing residencia? Some may not be liable for tax, others a few hundred a year. How much tax will have been lost? according to posts they wouldn't be paying much. Well off expats have everything sewn up anyway and probably pay little in any country. It is said that some expats keep UK addresses and continue to claim benefits.

I know that many times in Spain I have been asked if I want to pay IVA or not but I can't help it if I am not a curtain twitcher. Would you report your Spanish neighbours too?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> Unlike some posters I have no idea of the financial situation of expats, or Spaniards. Not a thing I normally discuss in either countries with acquaintances or neighbours. assume many are living under the radar. But how much are we talking about? are your expat neighbours rich or are they just average pensioners who (wrongly) never got around to doing residencia? Some may not be liable for tax, others a few hundred a year. How much tax will have been lost? according to posts they wouldn't be paying much. Well off expats have everything sewn up anyway and probably pay little in any country. It is said that some expats keep UK addresses and continue to claim benefits.
> 
> I know that many times in Spain I have been asked if I want to pay IVA or not but I can't help it if I am not a curtain twitcher. Would you report your Spanish neighbours too?


More whataboutery. I don't give a toss whether these evaders are pensioners or wealthy folk. It's what I do that matters to me.If they are liable for tax they should effing well pay it. It's equal to people fiddling benefits, worse in some ways. I pay tax in the UK and a fair bit of tax here and I pay it because it's the law. I have a pension scheme generous by Spanish standards and accept that the price of living here is to pay more tax than if I lived in the UK. It's worth it.
I want to live in Spain, not off Spain.

We aren't here to make our own rules. If you choose to live in a country you do the right thing and conform to the laws, even if you don't like them. Isn't that the message the Daily Mail sends out about immigrants to the UK?

Brits aren't colonial masters and memsahibs here. Spain isn't a colony and the Mediterranean isn't a British sea. I wouldn't report anyone but I hope someone does snitch on these ghastly 'under the radar' types. When, however, I come across them I do tell them what I think of them, parasitical freeloaders.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Isobella said:


> I know that many times in Spain I have been asked if I want to pay IVA or not but I can't help it if I am not a curtain twitcher. Would you report your Spanish neighbours too?


"Curtain twitcher" is a term usually used by someone "Living under the radar", both euphemisms, the first to demean a person who has an interest in their surroundings, someone usually law enforcement are grateful for, the second used by those deliberately and wilfully evading their duties and responsibilities to seek to minimise their actions. Let's use more accurate descriptions - observers and law breakers.

Every non payer of tax is effectively taking money straight out of my pockets and those of every other person who pays their dues. I don't like thieves and that's what these people are.

I have no compunction about reporting any Nationality, one person's money is as good as anyone else's.

I too do not know the financial situation of others and would not ask, that's bad manners. However, when the situation is boasted about for all to hear and the car is there for all to see then morally it would be wrong not to do anything about it.

The Law is the Law, we cannot pick and choose which apply to us and whether others are exempt - we are all equal.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Beach buddy said:


> How many people watch British TV without a Licence.....Let he who is without sin.........


You make a very good point, as many say a crime is a crime whether it be not paying your taxes or streaming illegal BBC TV in Spain. A bit of double standards going on me thinks


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## Beach buddy (Jul 7, 2018)

Beach buddy said:


> How many people watch British TV without a Licence.....Let he who is without sin.........


I see this was ignored because, I expect, all of us do this and it iis illegal and dodging the BBC licence. Stop pontificating and just get on with your lives.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Care to provide a link to support your statement regarding illegality please?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Relyat said:


> Every non payer of tax is effectively taking money straight out of my pockets and those of every other person who pays their dues. I don't like thieves and that's what these people are.
> 
> I have no compunction about reporting any Nationality, one person's money is as good as anyone else's.
> 
> ...


We are all equal....really! Which leads me back to billions of unpaid tax by Google etc. Not to mention the big cheeses in the previous Spanish Gov. Does the twenty euro pm your neighbour fiddles annoy you more because you see them or what?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Relyat said:


> Care to provide a link to support your statement regarding illegality please?


According to your logic you are depriving BBC viewers who pay their licence fees of income to spend on better programmeslayball:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Beach buddy said:


> I see this was ignored because, I expect, all of us do this and it iis illegal and dodging the BBC licence.


It's a different issue. It's not possible to buy a BBC TV license if you live outside the UK, so those who watch using a streaming service don't actually have a choice whether to pay or not. 

Watching streamed TV isn't illegal AFAIK, broadcasting it probably is.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

If like a great many and you watch your UK TV via one of the many suppliers here in Southern Spain who supply the STB and the interface to access U.K TV amongst other things such as films, sports etc at a monthly fee then Yes that is illegal as you are complicit in illegal activity such as fraud and copyright infringement by buying a service these companies have essentially stolen from the original broadcasters. There has been a clampdown on this activity recently. 

" _There are many reasons why consumers should not buy and use illegal streaming devices. Primarily , illegal streaming using one of these devices is against the law. In April 2017, the EU Court of Justice stated that both selling and* using *such devices was breaking the law._

https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/03/22/inenglish/1553254400_977205.html

Also watching BBC iplayer abroad with or without a TV licence is not allowed which is why you simply cannot log in as you would if you were in the U.K. That why you have to employ things such as VPN'S to mask your true location. By doing this again you are breaking rights agreements.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/help/how-to-guides/getting-started/using-outside-uk

Watching U.K TV in the U.K without a TV Licence is a criminal offence, so logically the same would apply in Spain. That you can't buy a U.K TV licence with a Spanish address should be a clue


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beach buddy said:


> I see this was ignored because, I expect, all of us do this and it iis illegal and dodging the BBC licence. Stop pontificating and just get on with your lives.


I ignored it because I don't watch British TV. I also ignored it because equating watching BBC (presumably not ITV) with tax evasion is stretching the point to absurdity. I'm not even sure that watching BBC TV or Sky for that matter is a crime per se , more likely to be a breach of contract law, therefore commercial and not criminal as such. perhaps, since you raised the subject, you should check it out, inform us of how we would stand if not paying licence fee and watching outside the UK, under which law or regulation one would be prosecuted, what the fine would be, how the notice of offence would be served..

Crimes, proper crimes, are ranked and punished in order of the gravity of the offence and the damage done to an individual or society as a whole. Shoplifting, although a crime which damages both business and the public through the passing on of higher prices, is considered less of a crime than rape or murder and the punishment would be lighter.

Evading tax is a crime in the UK and in Spain, punishable by fine and/or imprisonment in both countries. People who evade tax in Spain will if caught be punished under Spanish law. Watching BBC TV without a licence is not a crime under Spanish law.

It's even possible that many people who watch BBC in Spain and are not resident may be licence payers. Do you know if the terms of contract forbid this?

FFS, why can't we all agree that people liable for tax whether living in the UK, Spain, France or Kzakstan should pay it? God knows Spain and the UK could do with tax revenue to fund its poor public services.

As you say, stop pontificating and get on with your life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> According to your logic you are depriving BBC viewers who pay their licence fees of income to spend on better programmeslayball:


What if they are part-time residents and pay a fee in the UK? 


Are you lot justifying these tax evaders? What are you, bunch of KIPPERS or Tories?
Come on now, come clean. I think we should be told.:spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

[Duplicate, sorry


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> According to your logic you are depriving BBC viewers who pay their licence fees of income to spend on better programmeslayball:


What if they are part-time residents and pay a fee in the UK? 


Are you lot justifying these tax evaders? What are you, bunch of KIPPERS or Tories?
Come on now, come clean. I think we should be told.:spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy:


PS I only have Spanish TV and Netflix. Since I moved I've had very weak internet speed, it comes from the adjoining house, so couldn't get it BBC if I wanted to. I admit I did try, wasted money on having a dish installed but to no avail. So I gave up. I can't get IPlayer and Netflix doesn't always work. So I am not guilty but confess it wasn't for lack of trying when I first moved. I beg forgiveness for these heinous crimes.
I pay all due taxes too. So I am without sin and claim the right to cast the first stone.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Love Karma said:


> If like a great many and you watch your UK TV via one of the many suppliers here in Southern Spain who supply the STB and the interface to access U.K TV amongst other things such as films, sports etc at a monthly fee then Yes that is illegal as you are complicit in illegal activity such as fraud and copyright infringement by buying a service these companies have essentially stolen from the original broadcasters. There has been a clampdown on this activity recently.
> 
> " _There are many reasons why consumers should not buy and use illegal streaming devices. Primarily , illegal streaming using one of these devices is against the law. In April 2017, the EU Court of Justice stated that both selling and* using *such devices was breaking the law._
> 
> ...


FilmOn and TVMucho are legal, apparently. They pay royalties on the services broadcast. 

https://thehightechsociety.com/filmon-tv-review-legit-safe-use/
https://tvmucho.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000766514-Is-TVMucho-legal-

Personally I never use them. I'm quite happy with Netflix etc for series and films, along with Spanish TV for news and sports. Thank goodness BBC radio is free globally, I couldn't survive without the World Service!


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Beach buddy said:


> How many people watch British TV without a Licence.....Let he who is without sin.........





Beach buddy said:


> I see this was ignored because, I expect, all of us do this and it iis illegal and dodging the BBC licence. Stop pontificating and just get on with your lives.


It is NOT illegal to watch BRITISH TV anywhere in the world without a license as long as it's not live. It is only BBC and iplayer that is illegal to watch without a license.

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/Live-TV-and-how-you-watch-it



> Do I need a TV Licence if I only ever watch on demand services (like catch up TV), DVDs or downloaded programmes?
> 
> *You don’t need a licence if you only ever watch on demand or catch up programmes on services other than BBC iPlayer (and you also never watch live TV programmes on any channel, including on iPlayer).*
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> We are all equal....really! Which leads me back to billions of unpaid tax by Google etc. Not to mention the big cheeses in the previous Spanish Gov. Does the twenty euro pm your neighbour fiddles annoy you more because you see them or what?


No. They both annoy me equally. 
Some people murder people. Governments murder people.
What annoys you more, the fact that US, Israeli, British and many other Governments kill thousands, tens of thousands, of innocent civilians with airstrikes or the woman next door who snaps after years of torment and kills her overbearing bullying husband?

Do you do anything about the tax evasion by these big companies? Do you vote for a Party that allows tax avoidance by the rich who can afford slippery tax lawyers (which profession I believe was that of Margaret Thatcher before she gave up her work as a scientist making icecream frothier).

Or are you sticking up for these folk, rich or poor, who want to live in Spain but either can't afford to or don't want to pay the price that evolves? 
Nobody has a right to live in Spain and if you want the sun but can't afford the Spanish variety, Torquay, I am told, has sun, sea and palm trees.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Love Karma said:


> You make a very good point, as many say a crime is a crime whether it be not paying your taxes or streaming illegal BBC TV in Spain. A bit of double standards going on me thinks


Seriously.

To equate not paying a tv license to tax evasion is rather like equating shoplifting to manslaughter. 

Utterly ridiculous.

And as I pointed out in a previous post it only applies to BBC channels and iplayer.
Quite frankly with all the ****e that passes for entertainment on the beeb you're not missing much if you don't watch it.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Tigerlillie said:


> Seriously.
> 
> To equate not paying a tv license to tax evasion is rather like equating shoplifting to manslaughter.
> 
> ...


And as I pointed out it most certainly does not just apply to BBC iPlayer if you watch Sky Sports, Sky Movies and many of the majority of channels that come packaged on these STB here in Spain and elsewhere that is breaking copyright laws with each and every broadcaster. Sky and the relevant agrieved parties have had many successful prosecutions in the U.K and in other European countries.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> What if they are part-time residents and pay a fee in the UK?
> 
> 
> Are you lot justifying these tax evaders? What are you, bunch of KIPPERS or Tories?
> Come on now, come clean. I think we should be told.:spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy::spy:


If you read back I don't care who watches BBC TV for free. It was a response to Taylorat's post and I said _"according to your logic"_

Many in the UK have also stopped paying the licence fee and stick to Netflix and others. I wish the BBC would lose their licence income. I would stop ours but OH likes his SKY sport!. 
It is all a moral maze (well not for me, I have other things in my life than bothering and bitching what others do). How many of you pay or have paid cash in hand in Spain? Our village PO and Super run by a nice Indian family, gives out receipts if you pay by card, pay by cash you never get one, others have mentioned it. They are obviously up to something, do I care...nope.
Back to the Spanish expat fiddlers, how do you know they are fiddlers? they may not be legally registered but from what I have seen a lot are living hand to mouth and may not have to pay tax.

The emoticons are childish, don't become you, ruins a good thought out post


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Love Karma said:


> And as I pointed out it most certainly does not just apply to BBC iPlayer if you watch Sky Sports, Sky Movies and many of the majority of channels that come packaged on these STB here in Spain and elsewhere that is breaking copyright laws with each and every broadcaster. Sky and the relevant agrieved parties have had many successful prosecutions in the U.K and in other European countries.


 *IT ONLY APPLIES TO **LIVE* *TV.* 

And I did point that out in post #54  

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/Live-TV-and-how-you-watch-it



> *Do I need a TV Licence if I only ever watch on demand or catch up TV online?
> 
> It depends what you watch.*
> 
> ...



In conclusion it matters not that you watch British TV as long as it's not BBC or it's services and* you don't watch it live.*


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Love Karma said:


> And as I pointed out it most certainly does not just apply to BBC iPlayer if you watch Sky Sports, Sky Movies and many of the majority of channels that come packaged on these STB here in Spain and elsewhere that is breaking copyright laws with each and every broadcaster. Sky and the relevant agrieved parties have had many successful prosecutions in the U.K and in other European countries.


A few companies were arrested in UK and Spain just a few weeks ago. I suppose it could be said by purchasing them it is aiding and abetting, like buying stolen goods...only joking


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Tigerlillie said:


> *IT ONLY APPLIES TO **LIVE* *TV.*
> 
> And I did point that out in post #54
> 
> ...


You are again incorrect, you cannot legally watch any *Sky programming* anywhere in the world (apart from the Sky News I think) via these streaming boxes that a great many have in Spain. The STB are illegal as they have 3rd party apps and content from many different U.S and E.U broadcasters available and bundled on for their monthly fee which are NOT PART OF the U.K T.V Licence. Anyway I'm sure the TV and SAT guy who posts on here can clarify as to the legality of these streaming boxes and services. Anyone using these boxes are paying to use an illegal service and are infringing the broadcasters copyright. NOT solely a BBC issue. The link shows exactly the stance the U.K government have taken which has been reflected in many other counties. These boxes and content are ILLEGAL. 



https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...aming-devices-and-thieves-of-paid-for-content


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Just found it. Very lucrative.
https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/201...-in-massive-hit-against-illegal-tv-streaming/


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> If you read back I don't care who watches BBC TV for free. It was a response to Taylorat's post and I said _"according to your logic"_
> 
> Many in the UK have also stopped paying the licence fee and stick to Netflix and others. I wish the BBC would lose their licence income. I would stop ours but OH likes his SKY sport!.
> It is all a moral maze (well not for me, I have other things in my life than bothering and bitching what others do). How many of you pay or have paid cash in hand in Spain? Our village PO and Super run by a nice Indian family, gives out receipts if you pay by card, pay by cash you never get one, others have mentioned it. They are obviously up to something, do I care...nope.
> ...


If they are earning under the tax bracket, they're not fiddlers, are they?
I stick to Netflix now but in the past we did watch Sky because Sandra wanted all the football channels. We paid for it though. Like you I think BBC is probably not worth watching, I used to like BBC 4 . I listen to BBC Radio 4 Today every morning on my IPad, not sure if that's a crime.
I rarely pay cash for anything. If I do, it's at some local corner shop. Usually there's no till so no receipt. I have no idea how they fill their tax return. I did once pay 600 euros cash, to a garage. I wanted to pay by card or bank transfer but they refused and wouldn't let me take the car until I handed over the money. Force majeure, I think my defence would be. When I asked about IVA I was laughed at and called loca.

Nobody likes paying tax but if you believe as I do in quality public service you pay up. If we all fiddled our tax because some politicians are corrupt we'd have no public services. Sandra was scrupulously honest when running her business, all taxes paid, no discount for cash. So I took the same course. After all, how could I be an active member of a Party that called for better public services if I was a tax dodger? We all have weaknesses and can be tempted but it's good to feel you've done the right thing....smug, perhaps, but so what.

Agencia Tributaria are demanding 7000 euros off me, an outrageously excessive amount. Surely some mistake somewhere.... I sincerely hope.

I thought the icons were funny...a bit of humour.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's interesting to read the UK Government guidelines on Intellectual Property, especially the section relating to Copyright, Patenting etc. 

The penalty for public showing of copyright material is £3000 fine or maximum three months imprisonment. Presumably that's how these bars that show Premier and Champion League matches get caught although what the Spanish law is in regards to this, I know not.

I find it hard to believe that in the case of the BBC watching the UK police would send the Guardia round to lock up some poor old Brit immigrant watching Corrie or whatever. Like possession of small amounts of marijuana, some things which are crimes on the Statute Book are simply ignored -and sensibly so imo - by the authorities. But tax evasion is rarely if ever ignored and HMRC passes on information to the Spanish tax authorities. If people are not registered as tax residents there are apparently other ways of catching them such as using the public health service, driving a Spanish plated car, using your credit card at Mercadona every week or withdrawing cash regularly.
I suspect that the search for tax cheats will be stepped up if Brexit ever happens, even if it doesn't.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Tigerlillie said:


> It is NOT illegal to watch BRITISH TV anywhere in the world without a license as long as it's not live. It is only BBC and iplayer that is illegal to watch without a license.
> 
> https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/Live-TV-and-how-you-watch-it


From the above links FAQ's:

*Do I need a TV Licence to watch live TV programmes from outside the UK or Channel Islands?*

Answer:
You need a TV Licence to watch or record live TV programmes on any channel or device, no matter 
where they are broadcast or distributed from. This includes satellite or online streamed programmes
from outside the UK or Channel Islands, such as sporting events and foreign shows.

Therefore from the FAQ answer - any Brit who has a 2nd home in the UK and no doubt has a BBC TV
License to watch the BBC or any other programs while on holiday in the UK.
Can quite legally and with the BBC's blessing, watch live TV progams abroad while being a TV licence
holder, if we take the above FAQ answer at face value.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It's a pity the BBC don't consider introducing a subscription service for i-player for the same price as a UK tv licence which overseas residents could pay for - they seem to be missing a trick to get some extra income in which could help keep the free tv licence for over 75s going (which is under review at the moment, I think?). Those of us who are 75 or over are not defrauding anybody as they wouldn't have to buy a tv licence if they lived in the UK anyway.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> It's a pity the BBC don't consider introducing a subscription service for i-player for the same price as a UK tv licence which overseas residents could pay for - they seem to be missing a trick to get some extra income in which could help keep the free tv licence for over 75s going (which is under review at the moment, I think?). Those of us who are 75 or over are not defrauding anybody as they wouldn't have to buy a tv licence if they lived in the UK anyway.


There will be a one in the pipeline called BritBox.

BBC News - Why the BBC and ITV are creating BritBox


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

We're saving them some money by not being there to claim Winter Fuel Allowance, free bus passes and free prescriptions, and not clogging up GP surgeries and hospital beds, so will ask for that to be taken into account when sentencing for watching UK tv abroad takes place.

Better keep the European Arrest Warrant going, hadn't they, or it will get awfully expensive to have us all extradited to face charges in the UK.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> It's a pity the BBC don't consider introducing a subscription service for i-player for the same price as a UK tv licence which overseas residents could pay for - they seem to be missing a trick to get some extra income in which could help keep the free tv licence for over 75s going (which is under review at the moment, I think?). Those of us who are 75 or over are not defrauding anybody as they wouldn't have to buy a tv licence if they lived in the UK anyway.


I think it is EU laws I watch BBC America when I am there (in hotels). A bit like BBC world during the night. I am sure if they could do a BBC Europe they would do.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Isobella said:


> We are all equal....really! Which leads me back to billions of unpaid tax by Google etc. Not to mention the big cheeses in the previous Spanish Gov. Does the twenty euro pm your neighbour fiddles annoy you more because you see them or what?


You have missed the point. 

It's not about annoyance, it's about the principle. 

Once again, those that do not pay taxes are stealing from me and everyone else who pays and in the process depriving us all of public services. Some are bigger thieves than others, but they are all thieves.

I don't allow myself the luxury of thinking that I am exempt from some laws that perhaps I don't like or consider onerous, are inconvenient or involve me having to pay a bit for the common good. Those people are criminals, I'm not one of them......are you?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> *I think it is EU laws* I watch BBC America when I am there (in hotels). A bit like BBC world during the night. I am sure if they could do a BBC Europe they would do.


Typical Brexiter - blame it on the EU - What on earth are you talking about????


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

Love Karma said:


> You are again incorrect, you cannot legally watch any *Sky programming* anywhere in the world (apart from the Sky News I think) via these streaming boxes that a great many have in Spain. The STB are illegal as they have 3rd party apps and content from many different U.S and E.U broadcasters available and bundled on for their monthly fee which are NOT PART OF the U.K T.V Licence. Anyway I'm sure the TV and SAT guy who posts on here can clarify as to the legality of these streaming boxes and services. Anyone using these boxes are paying to use an illegal service and are infringing the broadcasters copyright. NOT solely a BBC issue. The link shows exactly the stance the U.K government have taken which has been reflected in many other counties. These boxes and content are ILLEGAL.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...aming-devices-and-thieves-of-paid-for-content


I'm not arguing the fact that these STB's and IPTV devices are illegal or not, I expect they probably are.

I'm talking about watching solely online on a laptop with no extra equipment. Which is perfectly legal as long as it's not live tv which on demand and catch up isn't. These services aren't accessible from a normal television, they are not live.

Don't obfuscate the issue and argue against things that I'm not even talking about.

A new EU regulation came in to force last April allowing portability of online subscriptions and services.

https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/04/03/europeans-love-portability-of-online-content-services/

https://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/942715/tv-shows-abroad-bbc-iplayer-channel4-itv-sky-now-tv



> However, the new changes which came into effect on 1 April, mean that Britons are now able to stream pay-TV services wherever they are in Europe, as a result of the EU loosening their regulations on portability rules.
> 
> Broadcasters including* Sky, Amazon and ITV are allowing Britons, hooked on their favourite TV shows, to access their pay-TV subscriptions via online TV series such as NOW TV, ITV Hub+ and Prime Instant Video.*
> 
> Managing director at NOW TV, Gidon Katz, commented: “The EU’s introduction of new portability rules for online content services from 1 April is great news for TV lovers everywhere.


And in March this year the European Parliament voted in favour of new rules facilitating access to online TV and radio content across borders.

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single...cilitating-access-online-tv-and-radio-content


> We welcome the approval of the Directive on television and radio programmes by the European Parliament. With today's vote, we are completing the modernisation of the EU copyright rules launched in 2015 and we are getting another step closer to a fully functioning Digital Single Market. Radio and TV programmes are an essential source of information, culture and entertainment for European citizens. The new rules will offer better access to such programmes across the Union, for the benefit of cultural diversity.* They will make it easier for European broadcasters to make large parts of their TV and radio programmes available online in all EU countries, while ensuring that creators, authors and rights holders are adequately paid for the use of their content.* *The new rules will be particularly relevant for the 41% of Europeans who watch TV online but also for the linguistic minorities, as well as the 20 million EU citizens who are living abroad in another EU country*. Together with the portability rules allowing Europeans to travel with their online subscriptions, with the implementation of the Marrakesh Treaty providing better access to books to blind and visually impaired people, as well as the new Copyright Directive designed to bring tangible benefits to citizens, creative sectors, and the press, we are completing our broader initiative to bring EU copyright rules up to date for the digital age.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Tigerlillie said:


> I'm not arguing the fact that these STB's and IPTV devices are illegal or not, I expect they probably are.
> 
> I'm talking about watching solely online on a laptop with no extra equipment. Which is perfectly legal as long as it's not live tv which on demand and catch up isn't. These services aren't accessible from a normal television, they are not live.
> 
> ...




I have been very clear and specific in my posts that I was referring to STB's which the vast majority of people use for their U.K TV viewing. STB connected to a TV. If anyone is obfuscating the issue it is yourself by now in this latest post suddenly becoming Device specific, so forgive me if I should have guessed you were talking solely about viewing on a laptop which I have never commented on simply because on my urbanisation of 55 houses and 34 apartments (being treasurer I know all the residents of which 75% are Brits retired and living here permanently) probably all bar two I know of use the STB connected to tv System which they all signed up to via a company supplying this service at a nearby market. My comments always were regarding this method of receiving U.K TV as I would simply by experience assume that the number of people using a laptop to watch their U.K programmes on is extremely small.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Typical Brexiter - blame it on the EU - What on earth are you talking about????


According to the following posts where EU has loosened them, they do:brick:


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