# Moving to SA- Would love to get your advice.



## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

Hi all.
I have followed this forum for quite a while now but just signed up.

I am planning a move to WC from the UK with my fiance (he is from CT area originally) and my 8 year old daughter. (want to come over Jun/Jul/Aug)

We actually did talk about moving over last year but after reading every forum discussion and crime stats under the sun I lost my nerves and backed out...

I have however found my courage and am desperate for a life change. I want to experience something new and want my daughter to be able to enjoy a more active outdoor lifestyle. Australia is not an option and my partner has family and social network in SA so it seems like a natural option for us.

Obviously I don't want this on the expense of our lives and I do admit that the risk factor scares me A LOT... I am though hoping that the positives outweigh the negatives? 

Bottom line.. I really would appreciate all the advise you can give me.

We have found 2 houses. One in Somerset West (bottom of Helena Heights) and one in Gordons Bay (Mountain side)

I have fallen in love with the house in Somerset West but I am thinking Gordons Bay might be the safer option?

I have read all the negative comments (hard to ignore) but I would like some practical advice which will help me make a decision and hopefully overcome my worries.
I do appreciate it
Lx


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

I would defintely move from UK to WC.

Somerset West is a good option, but it depends where you work.

Somerset West is also an european centric area, so if you are looking for a change of your life style, you will be disappointed. This is touristic, safe enough to settle in.

South Africa has big challenges, but the political situation seems better than 1 year ago. Crime is a big issue, but mainly concentrated on specific areas such as townships (I would say 90% of the crimes are committed in the Townships).

If you plan to go to Joburg for a visit, please take advice from your fiance.

Also, Western Cape is certainly the best managed province in South Africa. Service Delivery works.

Hope it helps


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## satori (Mar 9, 2012)

I'm reading responses to your questions with interest Iom, because sometimes what I read and hear is very frightening and like you scares me a lot too.

Several times I have questioned my judgement about leaving the UK - even if only on a part time basis.

I visit CT every year and I am more vigilant than I am here. I'm quicker to check out any noise that sounds suspicious. I follow general safety rules and never had a problem of any kind. When I read the horror tales and start to fall into the feeling that I will be lucky to escape with my life - this helps me re-balance my fears. 

I don't know why but whenever I am here from a distance it's as though I lose my perspective...and it can all look awfully dire. Then off I go and it is far from dire and I enjoy it so much I don't want to leave!

It may be different once I live there for more than a few months though...:confused2:

I'm lucky to have family in CT - a large family, and aside from my mum getting her handbag stolen by a white man quite recently from under the table in a restaurant, they are all alive and kicking...touchwood. To date none of my family have had their houses cleaned out but recently family friends got held up by a bunch of men posing as security guards and they were robbed but not hurt. That is pretty upsetting but I know I can't wear rose tinted glasses, it happens from time to time.

Being aware of the risks one hopes one can lessen them somewhat. The _majority_ of the people I know down there have been fine and lead quality lives.

I have friends in Somerset West - it is a nice area. They commute to CT city daily - a bit of a drive.

Not sure about Gordons bay - I have only been there a couple of times.

Good luck with everything!


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## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

*further questions*



arnaud said:


> I would defintely move from UK to WC.
> 
> Somerset West is a good option, but it depends where you work.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your positive reply. I am very nervous about this move but at the same time excited... 

I have lived in Malaysia,Ecuador and Honduras in the past for a year at a time and have some experience in living cautiously... That was however before I became a mum and with that increased life responsibility there are more things one needs to take into consideration obviously!

I have loads of questions and concerns still and I hope to get more practical advice on this forum. 

If I might add some questions?

I am looking for practical advice when it comes to choosing a house..

I have heard it is best to live up hill?

One of the houses I am looking at is at the end of a cul de sac..tucked in there...Is that safer or would that only give me a false sense of security?

Should I only look for houses with an electric gate? (read about chances of getting hijacked when leaving car to open gate etc..)

The house in the cul de sac has got the master bedroom upstairs and all the kids bedrooms downstairs.. Would it be wise to have all bedrooms upstairs?

Gosh, just writing these questions down makes me think this is all a bit insane! Maybe I should chill a bit?

All thoughts on the subject of choosing a house,location, car etc would be very much appreciated...


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## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

satori said:


> I'm reading responses to your questions with interest Iom, because sometimes what I read and hear is very frightening and like you scares me a lot too.
> 
> Several times I have questioned my judgement about leaving the UK - even if only on a part time basis.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply! Are you moving back? With family?
Hope to hear more about it if so Really need some more positive/real comments to help me feel at ease..

Ahh sorry, I see now that you are in SA... You say you are more vigilant when in CT..May I ask where you live?


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## satori (Mar 9, 2012)

lom said:


> Thank you for your reply! Are you moving back? With family?
> Hope to hear more about it if so Really need some more positive/real comments to help me feel at ease..
> 
> Ahh sorry, I see now that you are in SA... You say you are more vigilant when in CT..May I ask where you live?



Hiya 

I'm not there yet but will be around the 27th of this month with any luck! 

I'll be staying with family at first, in Lakeside, near Muizenberg, but hope to find a place to rent once I know for sure how long we'll be there for. 

I'm shooting for a 6-8 month stay yearly with the rest of the time spent here in the UK...but still not sure if this is ultimately going to work out from my husbands work point of view. 

I'll definately keep everyone posted about how things do - or do not progress  once I am there!

When are you planning to go over?


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## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

satori said:


> Hiya
> 
> I'm not there yet but will be around the 27th of this month with any luck!
> 
> ...


Wow that is in few days time! Look forward to following your journey on here and hope it works out for you!

We are planning a move over this summer, it might be June or July if all works out... :confused2:


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

lom said:


> Thank you for your positive reply. I am very nervous about this move but at the same time excited...
> 
> I have lived in Malaysia,Ecuador and Honduras in the past for a year at a time and have some experience in living cautiously... That was however before I became a mum and with that increased life responsibility there are more things one needs to take into consideration obviously!
> 
> ...


Hard to answer these questions. No need for electric gate here, but it could ,help you in being more comfortable. As for bedrooms, I would prefer having the kids bedrooms upstairs.

Regards,

Arnaud


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

Those are both safe ish areas as far as I know - also Stellenbosch is very nice but as mentioned before it depends on where you are working. If you are working in Cape Town then perhaps Milnerton / Blouberg (good private schools there) / Table View may be an option. Cape Town is so lovely and we are hoping to go back this year too. Also got an 8 year old daughter so totally understand where you are coming from when you say its a big decision. Not easy to uproot them without knowing they will be better off. I have exactly the same concerns as you (well perhaps not about which floor the bedrooms are on as probably only getting a 3 bed bungalow style house but I would definitely want the kids on the same floor as me if I had a double storey house!) so reading these posts with interest. Hope all goes well and please do keep us posted on how things pan out. Good luck.


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## satori (Mar 9, 2012)

I don't think an electric gate is essential in some areas , but they are convienient!

We had one years ago in Jo'burg before CT started using them.


I'm with everyone above about having the children on the top floor or on the same floor as you are, that would be my preference too.

I feel for you & WhenweB, having young children makes things more complicated. I came to the UK with a 6, 7 and 11 year old. At the time it was a huge shock for them - they had a fantastic younger childhood splashing about in the pool, enjoying lot's of sunshine and living active outdoor lives. I hope your children will have these benefit's too...it's a lovely life for children. 

Mine are very happy here now and totally integrated young adults all living their own lives to the full - but it is hard to think of leaving them even though I plan to straddle the UK & SA if I can. 

Guess it is not easy either way...but of late I do wonder if I have done the right thing because now my family will be fragmented again...*sigh*:confused2:

Can only hope they will come to us for holidays and that somehow we will make it work as best we can...I'm sure we will find a way forwards.

Guess what I am trying to say (badly) is it is never easy when it comes to one's children - one can only do what one feels in ones heart is best and then go from there.


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

satori said:


> I don't think an electric gate is essential in some areas , but they are convienient!
> 
> We had one years ago in Jo'burg before CT started using them.
> 
> ...


Absolutely and I am sure that your children who are now adults are very close to you because they know you always did what you felt was right for them and it has worked out for you all which is wonderful. I know what you mean about having a fragmented family but you know - I honestly don't think that distance is the issue when it comes to closeness of family members. My husband's family are an hour away and we hardly ever see them because they are so wrapped up in their own lives. My mom lives in Cape Town whilst I am in UK and we see her every year when she comes here (much cheaper to fly her here than for us to go to SA as a family during school holidays) and every alternate Christmas when we go to Cape Town to see her and my brother. We are very close and text most days and if you are all on Skype you will find communicating in the months that you are in different countries quite easy. My daughter is much closer to her gran in CT than to her Nan in Uk purely because Granny is more interested in her and spends quality time with her rather than make an occasional effort when we do get in-laws to see us on Mothers' Day, Birthdays etc or whenever my husband's brother and sister aren't around to keep them entertained!!! Gosh no psychosis there at all is there??!!! Anyway good luck with your move and I do hope it works out for your family. They will love having holidays in SA I am sure and you will be back here before you know it for your "UK months".


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## RAVB (Mar 26, 2012)

*moving from India to Cape Town*

Hi,

I have been following several forums and have got a lot of information which has been very helpful....thank you.

I was born in jo'burg and moved to India when i was 4.I still hold a south african passport. I am now planning to move back to SA and settle down in cape town. I have been there several times (including during the world cup ) and have enjoyed the place alot.

I plan to start a fashion clothing/fabric business as i have a lot of experience in that field.

My biggest concern (like many other people) is safety. 
I know that it is not as crazy as people make it out to be. Ive never had any bad experiences during my previous visits.

what are the safest places to live, near the beach.?
I have been looking at houses/apartments in camps bay which i plan to go see during my next visit.Is it safe?
what are the safest areas to work?

I would appreciate any advise.

Thank you
RAVB


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## kingofthecastle (Mar 26, 2012)

RAVB said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been following several forums and have got a lot of information which has been very helpful....thank you.
> 
> ...


Anywhere in Cape Town other than a shanty town is pretty safe. Hardly anywhere by that description is cheap though.


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

RAVB said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been following several forums and have got a lot of information which has been very helpful....thank you.
> 
> ...


Cape Town safest in places like Stellenbosch or the Atlantic Seaboard (Milnerton / Table View / Blaauberg) rather than Southern Suburbs (Wynberg / Claremont etc). I would do a lot of research into the viability of the clothing industry - when I went to CT in December the Chinese had totally saturated this market with cheap clothing. I was told the idea behind selling it so cheap was to crash the SA clothing industry, get the monopoly then increase the prices when they had the market share - not sure how true this is just something you may want to investigate before moving there. Camps Bay quite safe but very expensive and quite commercialised / touristy. Nice area though. Good luck.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

WhenweB said:


> Cape Town safest in places like Stellenbosch or the Atlantic Seaboard (Milnerton / Table View / Blaauberg) rather than Southern Suburbs (Wynberg / Claremont etc). I would do a lot of research into the viability of the clothing industry - when I went to CT in December the Chinese had totally saturated this market with cheap clothing. I was told the idea behind selling it so cheap was to crash the SA clothing industry, get the monopoly then increase the prices when they had the market share - not sure how true this is just something you may want to investigate before moving there. Camps Bay quite safe but very expensive and quite commercialised / touristy. Nice area though. Good luck.


 The golden rule is to do your homework well. There are places that are outright a no-no, i.e. Parklands near Table View etc.

I have read the OP's post and although some on this forum, including me, discourage people to move to South Africa, you should remember that it is our opinion based on many factors, some personal experiences. We want to inform people so they can make an informed decision. 

I sensed a fear in the OP's post and would like to encourage you not to  After long and thorough consideration you have made the decision to move to South Africa, and you alone know what the best decision for you and your loved ones are. If you follow the general rules, and don't become blazé over time when it comes to issues like safety etc. you should be o.k. 

Living in Somerset West and having to travel to Cape Town daily is not a good idea. I would rather look at the southern suburbs. Many (Afrikaans) people live in the northern suburbs where real estate is generally cheaper than the southern suburbs. There are very nice and upmarket areas in the northern suburbs too, but the southern suburbs would be my preference. Enjoy.


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

vegasboy said:


> The golden rule is to do your homework well. There are places that are outright a no-no, i.e. Parklands near Table View etc.
> 
> I have read the OP's post and although some on this forum, including me, discourage people to move to South Africa, you should remember that it is our opinion based on many factors, some personal experiences. We want to inform people so they can make an informed decision.
> 
> ...


That's interesting Vegasboy - what is wrong with Parklands? Not arguing just that was one of the areas we were considering as the International School is near there so I am keen to hear why it's a no-no area please. My brother is in Sanddrift / Milnerton and seems okay there but I haven't been to Parklands and don't actually know what its like. Thanks.


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## RAVB (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi WhenWeB,

Thank you very much for the information.I appreciate it .

I am planning a trip to cape town in the next couple of months to study the viability of the clothing industry.I will then take a call.

Thank you once again


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## samsings (Mar 27, 2012)

RAVB said:


> Hi WhenWeB,
> 
> Thank you very much for the information.I appreciate it .
> 
> ...


My two cents. The S.A government is heavily taxing clothing imports to ewncourage local textiles to rejuvinate. Add to that in china and India the workers are demanding higher wages and less working hours and there is much discontent in that arena. I think you won't do badly with your plan to start a clothing line here at all.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

WhenweB said:


> That's interesting Vegasboy - what is wrong with Parklands? Not arguing just that was one of the areas we were considering as the International School is near there so I am keen to hear why it's a no-no area please. My brother is in Sanddrift / Milnerton and seems okay there but I haven't been to Parklands and don't actually know what its like. Thanks.


 I have family living in Parklands who recently sold their house and another family member trying to get out.

WhenweB, I prefer not to give my personal opinion on the state of affairs in Parklands, but read through these posts from another unrelated forum to get an idea. It is referred to as Little Lagos and other names.... CARforums.co.za - View topic - Att off CapeTronites


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## DonoZA (Jan 10, 2012)

My advice: don't do it. An entire generation of the white population (who have left since '94, more in the last few years) can't be wrong.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

DonoZA said:


> My advice: don't do it. An entire generation of the white population (who have left since '94, more in the last few years) can't be wrong.


DonoZA, this smacks of racism.

Do you realise how many Indian, black or mixed-race people have left SA and how many similar people have moved to SA?

I do not have exact numbers, but people migrate all over the world.


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## DonoZA (Jan 10, 2012)

Edited.


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## DonoZA (Jan 10, 2012)

For some reason I can't edit my post above. My message was: 

:tongue1:


Johanna said:


> DonoZA, this smacks of racism.
> 
> Do you realise how many Indian, black or mixed-race people have left SA and how many similar people have moved to SA?
> 
> I do not have exact numbers, but people migrate all over the world.


I don't see how this can be racist - do you live in SA right now? With all due respect, your reaction is typical of people in this country that cries racism at just about anything the moment race is mentioned. 

I was referring to this:
Million whites leave SA - study | Fin24


It is well known that although ALL races migrate, the overwhelming majority that choose to leave SA are white. Does that make them all racists?

The fact that there are members of all races leaving just further justifies my point - if you have everything in your favour as a person of the Designated Group, and you STILL want to leave, then something is seriously wrong with the country. 

And as for how many people of "Indian, black or mixed-race" that have moved to SA - most of those immigrants are coming from our north african countries. Those countries are just further down the path of destruction than SA. Naturally they will want to come here since it's one of the last "relatively good" countries left on the continent.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

DonoZA said:


> I don't see how this can be racist - do you live in SA right now?



Yip, I live here, returned from UK after living there for almost 11 years.


Just as a matter of interest, three posters on this thread are European.


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## DonoZA (Jan 10, 2012)

Well thats good that this is good enough for them. If electric fences, burglar bars, endless traffic, lawlessness and filth (not that the UK is much better on that last one) are what they are after, then this is the perfect place for them!

They must love the weather, though.


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

DonoZA said:


> For some reason I can't edit my post above. My message was:
> 
> :tongue1:
> 
> ...


White group is the fastest growing population group in SA.
Don't know what you are talking about.

Countries like NZ or Ireland suffer more of Brain Drain than SA. Are they finished countries ?


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

DonoZA said:


> Well thats good that this is good enough for them. If electric fences, burglar bars, endless traffic, lawlessness and filth (not that the UK is much better on that last one) are what they are after, then this is the perfect place for them!
> 
> They must love the weather, though.


DonoZA - with all due respect I take umbridge to the bit about UK not being much better (referring to filth). I am South African, living in UK for 15 years and desperate to go back to SA but my desire to return is because I love and miss SA - I would never ever slag off UK and especially imply it is filthy because it is a stunning country. The people here (indiginous British people of all races as I know some immigrants aren't as particular about keeping the country beautiful) take good care of the countryside, nature, animals and historical buildings. The streets are generally clean and the council workers well paid. Just had to mention that as I would hate my reasons for wanting to return to SA to be misunderstood - I want to return because I love SA not because I hate UK. There is a difference.


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

arnaud said:


> White group is the fastest growing population group in SA.
> Countries like NZ or Ireland suffer more of Brain Drain than SA. Are they finished countries ?


*Arnaud*, can you please post the link which proves that white group is the fastest growing populationin SA?

Statistics South Africa - Home
This is what I found on my side. You can basically keep track of demographical situation in SA here. If you check it you'll see that the white population in 1995 was 5,22 mln. Then in 2000 it became 4,52 mln and differed from year to year growing or diminishing a bit.
In 2010 the white population was 4,58 mln and in 2011 4,56. So I dont see any fast grow. Unless you have different information and sources.
The point is it's a real brain drain in SA. It's not only about black or white or Indian. I cant judge Ireland or NZ to say if they're finished because I dont have any information regarding the measures their governments take to stop brain drain. But I do know what South African government does - AA for example. That's the main reason (plus crime of course) why most of white people (professionals!!!) left the country. If nothing changes in this area professionals won't stop leaving SA.

P.S. Even if the white population were the fastest growing it wouldn't really change a demographical picture in the country anyway. Why? Because the amount of blacks is 39 mln and I don't know how many unaccounted black immigrants are in SA as well (and of course SA government welcomes those people. They get their permits and can work). Amount of whites is 4,565 mln and who knows if they counted those whites who actually work abroad on cruise liners, in Dubai etc. and don't contribute to thecountry's economy. If they counted those people then white population is even smaller.


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

concord said:


> *Arnaud*, can you please post the link which proves that white group is the fastest growing populationin SA?
> 
> Statistics South Africa - Home
> This is what I found on my side. You can basically keep track of demographical situation in SA here. If you check it you'll see that the white population in 1995 was 5,22 mln. Then in 2000 it became 4,52 mln and differed from year to year growing or diminishing a bit.
> ...


Please read White South African - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is known the white population was undercounted. I don't know how many illegal foreigners live in South Africa.
Znyway, let's stick to the topic and let biased posts apart.


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

arnaud said:


> Please read White South African - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It is known the white population was undercounted. I don't know how many illegal foreigners live in South Africa.
> Znyway, let's stick to the topic and let biased posts apart.


Actually Wikipedia says: "Despite the decline, between 2009 and 2010, not only did the number of white South Africans increase by 112,000, but even their percentage increased from 9.1 to 9.2%.[24] This made them the fastest growing ethnic group *in that period of time*, with a growth rate of 2.5%, far higher than the 1.4% for black South Africans."

Which means that the growth was between 2009 and 2010. But between 2010 and 2011 there was decline again from 4,5847 to 4,5658 so it was about 19 000. Basically you can say the white population grows one year, the next year decreases but one year is not enough to claim that it's the fastest growing group or race unless the tendency keeps for at least a couple of years.

But you're right we must stick to the topic.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

arnaud said:


> Please read White South African - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It is known the white population was undercounted. I don't know how many illegal foreigners live in South Africa.
> Znyway, let's stick to the topic and let biased posts apart.


Arnaud, even your link states that approx 800,000 whites left.
the actual figure from two Census periods 1996 and 2001 was 847,000 less white bums on seats on census night.

you need to remember that census is an actual count, not an undercount as they had to do in KZN of Black villagers as it was too dangerous to land the helicopters.

white census is the easiest todo, they live in houses and flats and suburbs.
they have postal addresses.
60% of the black population dont.


the difference between emigration from SA and from European Countries
is age related.
Historically the young leave, broaden their horizons and return.
less SA young return.
what is also different is that Irish and UK emigrants tend to be younger and less in the 40 plus age group.
The majority of saffers who leave permanently are in that age group.
thats your senior skilled brain drain.


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Arnaud, even your link states that approx 800,000 whites left.
> the actual figure from two Census periods 1996 and 2001 was 847,000 less white bums on seats on census night.
> 
> you need to remember that census is an actual count, not an undercount as they had to do in KZN of Black villagers as it was too dangerous to land the helicopters.
> ...


Please read this :
Were many white south africans not counted during the 2001 south african census? - Yahoo! Answers India

I like facts. The fact is there are less White South Africans leaving the country than in UK or NZ.
Also, approximately 30,000 europeans settle in the country a year (mostly from UK)


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## cmdsg (Sep 10, 2010)

why the people who left SA behind are always making excuses for their choices?. The world is not just uk and australia, will also countries where life is harder than in SA, stop scaring people, things are difficult for all but life goes on, if people will want to live in SA and you guys do not, what the problem ?
Why you who left SA continue to speak of SA? why?
let people think with their own heads.

I believe that south africa is a country with a great future does not matter whether the ANC or DA is in power, people will choose what is best for all you have to learn to respect that.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

arnaud said:


> Please read this :
> Were many white south africans not counted during the 2001 south african census? - Yahoo! Answers India
> 
> I like facts. The fact is there are less White South Africans leaving the country than in UK or NZ.
> Also, approximately 30,000 europeans settle in the country a year (mostly from UK)


I like facts too.
real facts.
one of the ones I really really like is the one that says every South African who leaves or enters the Country does so on a SA Passport.
and that passport number is checked against the Computer records on the desk.
This means that at any one moment in time, The Dept of Home Affairs as wel as Customs and immigration can tell you EXACTLY how many South African Citizens are out of the Country, who they are, their ages, how many children they have and when they have left or returned.

That information has never been published.
Its a simple thing.
its classified Top Secret.

If it was published EXACTLY how many South Africans of all colours have left and never returned it would underline that SA is facing some serious skills crises.
As also pointed out by many members of the Govt.

The white Birth rate was at a low of 1.98 /1000 in 98, it rose again to about 3.65/1000 in 2003.
The black birth rate has declined and in KZN , because of AIDS, is so low that hey have a negative population rate
easy, google fertility rates South Africa,wealth of information, it gives you the live birth rates per area and by population group.

now as to 30,000 europeans ettling in Sa??
I agree that more than 30,000 skilled expats come to live in SA every year,
tahts 15 roughly of the white current population.
there is also a reason for that.
The aforementioned skills crises is also affected by Affirmative action appointments..

a helluva lot of Cmpanies who CANNOT get the skilled personnel they want cannt hire white South Africans to fill those posts as 1) they may not be available having left and 2) it puts them over the Racial Quota laid down.

By Hiring expat Engineers and Scientists and relevant skills base, they get by the Quota as firstly, the Expats are on a renewable work permit PR, so are seen as short term and secondly its excused as they are doing "Skills Transfer and mentoring".
They are seen as short term solutions and when sufficient trained South Africans of the required Population group are available, they will be dispensed with.

as to "settling" do a short poll here, how many of the incoming Expats have applied for SA Citizenship and how many of the returning South Africans/ Spouses have given up their "foreign" passports?

I would say none.

the other little trick that happens is, because of the crime, no-one wants to be hired for Gauteng.
so if they cannot skilled expat staff, and have a Cape Town Office, they hire for there, and then "Promote" the individual to the Jhbg office.....
problem solved.
the guys over here, its a promotion, etc....

if there was no skills crises, there would be no room for incoming expats.
the economy has not grown that much in 18 years.

so please find me some facts, not what someone called Rahul got as an answer in India on Yahoo answers.


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

cmdsg said:


> why the people who left SA behind are always making excuses for their choices?. ... stop scaring people,
> 
> Why you who left SA continue to speak of SA? why?
> let people think with their own heads.


Jeez, a person who's thinking to move to SA asked for an advise so we have a dispute here. If you check the forum you'll see there're people who represent 2 different opinions so it's not only us - negative, but lots of guys like you - positive. So the person who asked for an advice will read everything and make her/his own conclusions whether to move or not.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

cmdsg said:


> why the people who left SA behind are always making excuses for their choices?. The world is not just uk and australia, will also countries where life is harder than in SA, stop scaring people, things are difficult for all but life goes on, if people will want to live in SA and you guys do not, what the problem ?
> Why you who left SA continue to speak of SA? why?
> let people think with their own heads.
> 
> I believe that south africa is a country with a great future does not matter whether the ANC or DA is in power, people will choose what is best for all you have to learn to respect that.


get used to it cmdsg, its South African, every one has an opinion and the confidence to voice it.
put any group of South Africans together and they will debate anything and everything.
its our way.
its what makes South Africans so popular as a friendly people.
we are used to arguing and debating.

as to your other comments,
very few South Africans actually care who is in power.
all they want is for things to run smoothly.
and if you think we are 
making excuses for leaving, then you haven't really got into the South African Phsyche yet, my friend.
as to your last question, why dont we leave SA alone.

my 80 year old mother lives there.

as does my sister, two brothers and about a hundred nieces and nephews.

Its my Country, not my Home, but my Country.
is it yours?


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## cmdsg (Sep 10, 2010)

Daxk is not my country, but I love it I'm Portuguese, but it is the country of my wife and my two children.


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## MarcelleK (Jul 27, 2011)

lom said:


> Hi all.
> I have followed this forum for quite a while now but just signed up.
> 
> I am planning a move to WC from the UK with my fiance (he is from CT area originally) and my 8 year old daughter. (want to come over Jun/Jul/Aug)
> ...


Hi hun

We are moving in October from London (I am from Cape Town) and my husband from NZ. This is completely unrelated to your questions, but just want to know what visa you are entering (I assume you are British??). We are a bit stuck on my husband's visa and not sure which one to apply for and getting so many mixed messages so noticed your post and wondered what you are doing......

Please let me know and good luck with your choices. I absolutely love Gordon's Bay, but can't comment on where you want to live as have been in UK for 9 years and am from the Southern Suburbs in Cape Town and returning there.

So exciting!!!! 

Mx


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

cmdsg said:


> Daxk is not my country, but I love it I'm Portuguese, but it is the country of my wife and my two children.


Nao faz Mal, Pa! it IS my Country and I do love it


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## Charles III (Jan 15, 2012)

lom said:


> Hi all.
> I have followed this forum for quite a while now but just signed up.
> 
> I am planning a move to WC from the UK with my fiance (he is from CT area originally) and my 8 year old daughter. (want to come over Jun/Jul/Aug)
> ...


Hello Lom,

Don't worry about all the media scare mongering. If you want an accurate report on what it's like living in SA, ask people who actually live there - like the people on this forum, or friends or family living in SA if you have them.

I moved back to SA a year ago, and notice that the scare mongering that was happening all over the media (News24, even Mail & Guardian) just isn't a truthful reflection on the reality of privileged people in the country. People like yourself who are obviously quite well off, are not going to be living in a township or squatter camp where a lot of the crimes occur. Not to say criminal activity is exclusively limited to those areas, but it seems to be more increasingly centered in those areas. Why? I think a big part of the drop in crime in middle class and upper class areas like Somerset West, Gordons Bay, Sandton, Strand, Kloof, Centurion - wherever, is Sector Policing. Yes, in the last few years, sector policing and neighbourhood watch's have become very popular and very effective throughout the country. Indeed, areas that have seen their implementation have experienced huge declines in crime, so much so, that the law enforcement and neighbourhood watch patrol captains have become "bored". (I have that info first hand).

Long story short, much of the UK's population is trying to get out of that place, so I don't blame you. Many of these "Saffers" as they like to call themselves, have been living in the UK and making relatively good money for the past decade or so, but now with the financial downturn, it makes more sense to return back to SA. Some have accomplished the goal of getting a UK passport, and can leave again whenever they want. Anyway, they're probably not of much concern to you, it sounds like you have a job lined up, or perhaps you are just independently wealthy.

Long story short, don't worry. You'll see that these fears that have been planted in your mind will soon diminish when you get here and nothing happens. Like I said, I've been in SA a year, and no issues - and I live in Gauteng. From what I understand, the Western Cape is heaven on earth. Trees grow money, everyone lives in a house of gold, girls wear bikinis all day long and are all supermodels, everyone drives a luxury car on uncongested, untolled highways, and last but not least - government works. What's not to like?

Enjoy getting the hell out of the UK and prepare for wonderful ride here in SA.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Charles III said:


> Long story short, don't worry. You'll see that these fears that have been planted in your mind will soon diminish when you get here and nothing happens. Like I said, I've been in SA a year, and no issues - and I live in Gauteng. From what I understand, the Western Cape is heaven on earth. Trees grow money, everyone lives in a house of gold, girls wear bikinis all day long and are all supermodels, everyone drives a luxury car on uncongested, untolled highways, and last but not least - government works. What's not to like?
> 
> Enjoy getting the hell out of the UK and prepare for wonderful ride here in SA.


:confused2: I'm sure this was a belated April Fools joke? Most forward thinking South Africans who were born and bred here, may sound negative, but not so. They simply base their views on historical facts and realistic predictions of the future. 

The South Africa you so colourfully portray constitutes 10% of the areas where the 9% whites and a few privileged blacks in South Africa live and work. The largest percentage of the 80% black population (not even mentioning the few million illegal immigrants and more flowing in on a daily basis) live in the remaining 90 % areas most people have never been to in their lives. Exclusions are places like Sandton, etc. 

You base your assumptions on how wonderful South Africa is on the 10% of the country that suits your needs and wants, where you can live comfortably, send your kids to good schools etc etc. Now there is nothing wrong with that _per se_. However, the REAL South Africa consists of the 90% that apparently will have no effect on your life. Those are the people, the masses, my heart cries out for, for who there seem to be no hope.

Millions of people, the majority, live in the uttermost poverty imaginable. 13 Million South Africans live on less than R10 a day, but you won't feel or see it, not to the extent that it really is, unless you travel through the many townships where poverty is rife. With a tax base of only 7 million, it is a mammoth task to fight poverty, and if you do your research on South Africa responsibly, you should bring these factors into the equation as well. The poverty levels in our country and the morally repugnant and social destructive forms of social inequality based on factors such as class, gender and ethnicity necessitates that government prioritize their social services, but do we have the resources and time to do that before the masses get frustrated as was the case in Zimbabwe? To their credit, thousands who never had access to services (electricity, running water etc.) have it today, but it is a drop in the ocean.

It’s like being on a cruise ship (South Africa) going down due to a hole in the hull of the ship as a result of a fire, while the restaurant staff and first class patrons enjoy their fine cuisine in the dining room, oblivious and in denial as to the effect the fire will eventually have on them.

I spend lots of time in the Western Cape, and on my way home at about 11h00 this morning, did a quick head count of about 40 unsuccessful casual work seekers sitting aimlessly in the public open space park near my house, hungry, thirsty and tired, without travel money to go back home. Understandably so, they become more frustrated and more extreme. No wonder that this morning on the news, some police official confirmed that housebreakings are reaching an all time high while other forms of crime are decreasing, except rape.

So yes, your experience here for the first few years will surely be positive. Visit Sandton, Melrose Arch, then fly down to Cape Town, tan at Camps Bay, and tour the winelands. Fly back up noth and visit the Kruger National Park. We all know and agree that this is a beautiful country. 

What I strongly believe is that we (middle and upper class black and whites alike - this is not a race issue) who are carrying the fiscal burden have a few years left to enjoy it. 

With more than 15 million people receiving government grants and the threshold (as announced) to be raised to include more, money that should have gone into infrastructure and development, any visionary or forward thinker, however an optimist as you can be, will have to conclude that we are not too far from the tipping point.


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## Aussiegirl2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Wikipedia can be written by anyone. Does not always mean what you read on there is true...


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## Aussiegirl2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Some people forget how bad South Africa's crime has become when they move to other countries. they are also blinded by their nostalgic feelings and feelings of 'i dont belong'. I moved to Australia just a few months ago, and for the first time I feel like I have a future ahead of me. I can do anything. I can actually be whatever I want to be. I never had this feeling in South Africa, and all my friends who finished school with me are working in local shopping stores and earning minimum wages. Which are less than a pound per hour. This is very unfortunate. For the first time in my life I can actually dream big. I know I can achieve my dreams. 

This is why South Africa isnt a country to take your children to. 
If you want your daughter to have a future, then my opinion would be to stay where you are.

Another issue would be the crime factor, I love South Africa, but I can no longer be blind concerning crime in my country. it is horrible. Everywhere. We hear horror stories everyday and there's nothing funny about it. Open the local magazine 'you' or 'huisgenoot' and the next 150 pages will mostly be about horrific crime stories.
And yes, everywhere you go in South Africa you will need an electric gate. Unfortunately, we no longer live in a stable country. 

Again, it's a beautiful place for holidays ext, but do you really want to do that to your daughter? Take her to a country of crime and poverty?

I hope this helps. I am not a South African hater-to the contrary!I love it!


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## Charles III (Jan 15, 2012)

vegasboy said:


> :confused2: I'm sure this was a belated April Fools joke? Most forward thinking South Africans who were born and bred here, may sound negative, but not so. They simply base their views on historical facts and realistic predictions of the future.
> 
> The South Africa you so colourfully portray constitutes 10% of the areas where the 9% whites and a few privileged blacks in South Africa live and work. The largest percentage of the 80% black population (not even mentioning the few million illegal immigrants and more flowing in on a daily basis) live in the remaining 90 % areas most people have never been to in their lives. Exclusions are places like Sandton, etc.
> 
> ...


VegasBoy, thanks for your input. Indeed, there is ample room for debate on this topic. Now we come to the real issue. South Africa is split into different countries, all occupying the same physical land mass.

The "countries" are based on class, wealth to be more precise. If you go and live in one of the more affluent countries such as Sandton or Camps Bay, is it really of much concern to you what happens to the citizens of the poorer countries such as Alexandra or Khayelitsha? Not really. Certainly, once in a while you have to interact with these disadvantaged citizens, standing at the traffic light trying to sell you yet another BlackBerry charger, or pointing to their mouths with all five fingers, but on the whole, life consists of more refined activities. Rolling out of bed and taking a dip in the pool, having Sophie bring some tea and muffins whilst reading the morning paper in the fresh W.Cape air. Time for work? Hop into the BMW 3 Series and take a drive. After work, time for a drink at the V&A Waterfront - world class restaurants, and if you get lucky, some world class hotels too. So ends a long day, time to go home and watch some DSTV with a class of Amarula.

This scenario is played out daily across the country, and spans all race groups. The division is based on wealth, no longer on race. Lom wants to know if he/she should be buying in Somerset West or Gordons Bay, not if they should buy in Khayelitsha or Alexandra. That's not Lom's problem. If Lom was offended by a mass discrepancy in living standards and wealth within a nation's citizenry, Lom would not be considering a move to South Africa. When Lom comes to SA, Lom can get some ideas for Lom's new life from watching TV shows like "Top Billing" and rest assured that mass discrepancies in living standards are considered normal in SA, and the pursuit of material gain is alive and well, and encouraged as a worthy pursuit for all citizens.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Charles III said:


> VegasBoy, thanks for your input. Indeed, there is ample room for debate on this topic. Now we come to the real issue. South Africa is split into different countries, all occupying the same physical land mass.
> 
> The "countries" are based on class, wealth to be more precise. If you go and live in one of the more affluent countries such as Sandton or Camps Bay, is it really of much concern to you what happens to the citizens of the poorer countries such as Alexandra or Khayelitsha? Not really. Certainly, once in a while you have to interact with these disadvantaged citizens, standing at the traffic light trying to sell you yet another BlackBerry charger, or pointing to their mouths with all five fingers, but on the whole, life consists of more refined activities. Rolling out of bed and taking a dip in the pool, having Sophie bring some tea and muffins whilst reading the morning paper in the fresh W.Cape air. Time for work? Hop into the BMW 3 Series and take a drive. After work, time for a drink at the V&A Waterfront - world class restaurants, and if you get lucky, some world class hotels too. So ends a long day, time to go home and watch some DSTV with a class of Amarula.
> 
> This scenario is played out daily across the country, and spans all race groups. The division is based on wealth, no longer on race. Lom wants to know if he/she should be buying in Somerset West or Gordons Bay, not if they should buy in Khayelitsha or Alexandra. That's not Lom's problem. If Lom was offended by a mass discrepancy in living standards and wealth within a nation's citizenry, Lom would not be considering a move to South Africa. When Lom comes to SA, Lom can get some ideas for Lom's new life from watching TV shows like "Top Billing" and rest assured that mass discrepancies in living standards are considered normal in SA, and the pursuit of material gain is alive and well, and encouraged as a worthy pursuit for all citizens.


 Now THAT is exactly my point, Charles III, most people living here don't even know the extent or magnitude of the impact the rest of the 90% of South Africans problems are going to have on their lala Land in Camps Bay in future, let alone those wanting to move here. Then there are those who just don't care.

That is why people need to be made aware of the challenges in Khayalitsha and Alexandra, Mitchell's Plain and the rest, the REAL South Africa, (of which even it's citizens who were born and bred here know very little of) to avoid 'selective perception' where we choose to see and hear only what we want to so we could feel good about our decision to move to Somerset West or Gordons bay. What happens in Khayalitsha will inevitably spill over to i.e. Somerset West and Gordons Bay.

The reality is that all these small and diverse 'countries' you refer to share the same tax cake (it's still the same boat - to use my analogy, and those few in first class cannot throw a blind eye to the hole in the hull of the ship hoping the rest will fix it). They are intertwined when in comes to government issues like education, health, security etc. I have yet to find one person on this forum who argued favorably to moving here, who soberly looked at the country as a whole, YES, including Mitchells Plain, Khayalitsha and the rest of the real 90% of the real South Africa as part of their research.

Some will argue that a lot has changed in these areas over the last years. Some now even have running water and toilets, but here's the challenge: Our economy (the 7 million contributing to the tax coffers) and those running the state coffers just do not have the money and where they do, the capacity, to execute the development and upgrading of infrastructure. The beautiful roads you see are great, and I commend government for it, but it is simply not enough compared to the growing need. You only need to watch Carte Blanche once to agree with that.


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## arnaud (Jul 29, 2009)

Charlize said:


> Some people forget how bad South Africa's crime has become when they move to other countries. they are also blinded by their nostalgic feelings and feelings of 'i dont belong'. I moved to Australia just a few months ago, and for the first time I feel like I have a future ahead of me. I can do anything. I can actually be whatever I want to be. I never had this feeling in South Africa, and all my friends who finished school with me are working in local shopping stores and earning minimum wages. Which are less than a pound per hour. This is very unfortunate. For the first time in my life I can actually dream big. I know I can achieve my dreams.
> 
> This is why South Africa isnt a country to take your children to.
> If you want your daughter to have a future, then my opinion would be to stay where you are.
> ...


You love SA ?

This is what you said :


> Why would you want to leave the beautiful UK for South Africa? =P I just moved from South africa to Australia, seeing as South Africa has become such a dangerous place to live in.


As UK is also a dangerous country, I doubt you Love SA


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

arnaud said:


> You love SA ?
> 
> This is what you said :
> 
> ...


Not sure if whoever said UK is dangerous is living in the same part of UK as I am? The only danger really to me is severe lack of Vit D!!!! Undoubtably there are parts of inner cities which are dangerous as in all countries but believe me - if UK was a dangerous country it would make the decision to return to SA so much easier!!!


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Arnaud, I will leave it to Charlize to respond, but let me tell you, many of us have a love-hate relationship with this country. When I listen to my neighbors and friends in Florida US, it seems to be a world wide phenomenon, but it's different here in ZA.

I LOVE this country too. My family, friends, business colleagues of all races are very special to me. 

But then something happens which is totally out of the ordinary, once too often, which makes me hate this place: my aunt gets gang-raped on her farm and left for dead in the walk in cold room; my carS get stolen; a staff member's daughter of 16 gets raped, my friend who lives less than 3km from me, his wife and kid of 12 gets hijacked at gunpoint in front of their house. The list goes on. (Just received a security update that 3 houses in my street were burgled last week - this is an upscale area in the beautiful Cape Town).

It doesn't end there. The bitterness when you have to pay USD55k per year after SA Tax of 40% (you do the math and see how shocking it is) to fund your child's US university which could have been 10% of the cost in South Africa. The list goes on.

Have you ever heard of 'tronk dronk' in Afrikaans? Most South Africans are 'tronk dronk'. You become 'tronk dronk' when you start accepting the abnormal as normal. It's like the boiling frog syndrome, if it is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.  Hope you all had a great day...


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

*Vegasboy*, you just read my mind. Can't say better.

Of course you can truly love your country and I truly respect you for this but at the same time you must be realistic. You should think about the future of your country and of course about your own future as a part of it. 
When you say that you're rich, live in Sandton etc. and don't give a .... about what's happening in townships I think you behave like an ostrich! Yes, maybe today we don't really care about poverty but how can you be sure that it won't influence you and your kids? I know you'll say poor people are everywhere but it's all about the ratio of the rich and the poor. Don't you think that it's a kind of dangerous when there're SO many poor people, SO many unemployed and the middle class is not substantial?

I would call the situation socially dangerous...


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## Charles III (Jan 15, 2012)

*Lom*, as you've probably noticed reading the various replies to this thread, there's a whole bunch of different opinions out there regarding SA. I think it's fair to say the majority of people who grew up in SA still have some attachment to the country, in the same way any person would have a level of attachment to the place where they grew up. Totally normal. We've seen what SA was, is, and some of us can only speculate on what it will become.

I'm not sure if what has been said in this thread has been of any assistance to you in making your decision regarding moving to Somerset West or Gordons Bay. 

Much of what will affect your decisions and feelings regarding moving to SA (you mentioned you were apprehensive regarding the safety of your daughter) will be determined based on - quite frankly - your wealth. Much of the public services in SA have somewhat deteriorated since the transition to the new government. Of course, they were always abysmal for the blacks under apartheid, but are now even worse in many cases. Anyway, that's another story. What I'm saying is that services that would normally be tax funded, are now so bad that they're not of much use to you (although you still pay taxes for them). Long story short, you'll be taxed for services you won't use, and will then have to pay privately for those services, think private school for your daughter and private healthcare. Both can cost quite a bit.

My sense is you're looking for a change in life, moving to SA certainly makes sense since your fiance is from CT, but you're concerned for your daughter. What's more important for you is real practical advice on how to be safe and maintain a sustainable life in an urban South African city. Much of what has been written here has to do with South Africa's long term sustainability of South Africa's government, financial, and social situation. These issues are concerning, for many of the reasons that people have written on here. Does it help to put head in sand and be an ostrich? Possibly. I'm always surprised at how people manage to live in their own little worlds, oblivious of what is going on right outside their windows. To give you an example, I was talking to a South African girl at a club the other day, she was all flirty and cute, but didn't seem to have a clue about much going on in the world or SA. I asked "Who is the president of SA", her response - "Dunno, some black guy.", at this point her friend said "Zuma, dummy". Why did she not know this? Simple, no reason to. No reason to know what is going on outside the window. She is South African but has a UK passport through her parents, both rather wealthy. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

So, while I cannot condone such ignorance of the country or the world at large, it is seems that it is indeed possible to live in a bubble. You just need the resources to pull it off successfully. There are such people in SA. The Bubble People. Personally I'm not interested in being a bubble person. My decisions to stay and leave this country are based on calculated risks, and to use a business term - "Cost benefit analysis". Each person has to decide what benefits are important to them, and how much they are willing to pay for them. Some value sunshine, nice weather, vineyards, and cool highways. Other value social equality, the theater, art, safety, and the ability to move around in a functioning social environment without feeling threatened or being harassed. Each country has it's own pro's and cons.

I'm lucky enough to know quite a few pretty young ladies here in SA, and none have been raped, mugged, murdered etc, but, there are those who have, to deny that would be to deny the truth.

Anyway, to bring this commentary to a conclusion, I hope it all works out for you. Sometimes you just have to do something to know for sure. Since your fiance is from CT, he will be able instruct you regarding where to go, what to avoid, how to carry yourself to avoid any issues.

Good luck and Godspeed!


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

:focus: Gordons Bay would be my choice if I wanted a quaint harbor city feel with beaches and small shops, nice restaurants etc. It has a small town feel, yet you are not far from Somerset Mall. It's a low keyed area and indeed a place to consider. The only downside is the wind in summer.

Somerset West is nice too, depending on your location. I have two properties on the outskirts just before the Sir Lowry's Pass. A beautiful view over the mountains and secured, yet we have a lot of challenges with an undesirable informal settlement right next to us called Sir Lowry's Pass Village.

The old town centre in Somerset West or CBD is tired and not a pleasure to visit. Many prefer to shop at Somerset Mall.

Enjoy your stay and be safe


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

vegasboy said:


> Arnaud, I will leave it to Charlize to respond, but let me tell you, many of us have a love-hate relationship with this country. When I listen to my neighbors and friends in Florida US, it seems to be a world wide phenomenon, but it's different here in ZA.
> 
> I LOVE this country too. My family, friends, business colleagues of all races are very special to me.
> 
> ...


Love the boiling frog syndrome comparison Vegasboy but how sad about your aunt and the other people you mention falling victim to crime. Horrific. I hope she is okay although no idea how one would ever get over something so traumatic. I do worry about the farmers because if Zimbabwe is anything to go by they will certainly have cause for concern.

As things stand I have decided to stay in UK for the time being (this will probably change again tomorrow) but there is no way I can bring my 8 year old daughter to a country where masses of people have such low regard for life and such need to resort to crime because there is no chance of them supporting themselves legitimately. It is such a shame as I would dearly love to go "home" but I cannot risk putting my daughter into such danger. Perhaps once she has left school it may be an option... one can live in hope that things would have improved / settled down by then. So for the time being this South African is staying put in the UK - well until I change my mind again that is.... have a good Easter everyone.... wherever you are.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

WhenweB said:


> Love the boiling frog syndrome comparison Vegasboy but how sad about your aunt and the other people you mention falling victim to crime. Horrific. I hope she is okay although no idea how one would ever get over something so traumatic. I do worry about the farmers because if Zimbabwe is anything to go by they will certainly have cause for concern.
> 
> As things stand I have decided to stay in UK for the time being (this will probably change again tomorrow) but there is no way I can bring my 8 year old daughter to a country where masses of people have such low regard for life and such need to resort to crime because there is no chance of them supporting themselves legitimately. It is such a shame as I would dearly love to go "home" but I cannot risk putting my daughter into such danger. Perhaps once she has left school it may be an option... one can live in hope that things would have improved / settled down by then. So for the time being this South African is staying put in the UK - well until I change my mind again that is.... have a good Easter everyone.... wherever you are.


 Thanks for asking WhenweB. I don't think my aunt was ever the same after that incident. But the emotional scars weren't limited to her alone. Her husband (and the rest of the family) was very traumatized by it too, blaming himself for not taking enough precaution. 

It's so sad. Just read about the farm murder on Friday where a whole family except the 14 year old son was executed. Damn this place. Farm boy finds his family murdered - Times LIVE


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

vegasboy said:


> Thanks for asking WhenweB. I don't think my aunt was ever the same after that incident. But the emotional scars weren't limited to her alone. Her husband (and the rest of the family) was very traumatized by it too, blaming himself for not taking enough precaution.
> 
> It's so sad. Just read about the farm murder on Friday where a whole family except the 14 year old son was executed. Damn this place. Farm boy finds his family murdered - Times LIVE


Just read the article - horrible. Shame poor chap. It doesn't say whether they took anything either. It all seems so pointless sometimes thats what I can't get my head around. The mother of a work colleague died some years ago when she was mugged for a shopping bag containing a loaf of bread and a pint of milk. Glad your aunt recovered physically but yes I should imagine the emotional scars would stay forever and would also effect her family. Awful. That's not to say of course that similar things don't happen in other countries but for some reason, when I look out my window at home in UK and don't see a burglar bar or security gate in sight I can't help thinking I would be an idiot to remove my family from this place to go into a middle class area of Cape Town (Milnerton) and surround myself with electric fence and burglar bars, armed response and fierce dogs just because I hate the weather here and miss SA so much. :focus:

I had friends living in Gordons Bay and it was always windy when I was there. Somerset West was lovely but think Stellenbosch may be preferable. If working in Cape Town itself I would live in the Tableview / Milnerton area though to avoid the heavy traffic going into town. Southern suburbs seem to have more crime for some reason but the schools are better (Wynberg / Rustenburg / Rondebosch Boys etc). Happy decision making.... not my strong point that's for sure!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

WhenweB said:


> Just read the article - horrible. Shame poor chap. It doesn't say whether they took anything either. / Rondebosch Boys etc).making.... not my strong confused:


 People, please, do not come to hasty conclusions.

Many people find it strange that the young boy did not hear the shots and that he had the fire arms with him ( picked them up at the gate? )... sounds weird as guns etc are usually something robbers take or hold on to.

Let us not make any hasty assumptions.


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## Rustler (Apr 9, 2012)

*Live where you like*

Live where you like, just be alert. SA is very lawless - Wild West. And if you call for help, chances are no one will come.....


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## Aussiegirl2 (Apr 5, 2012)

Dear Arnaud, I love my country. I love Africa. That, however, doesnt mean I love what is happening in the country. I love the ocean, Mandela, Cape Town, the mountains, the culture, the languages. I sincerely dislike crime, murder, rape, corruption, hate and rascism. Again, I love South Africa, I dont like whats happening IN South Africa.


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## Moyes (Nov 3, 2011)

*Farm Murders and Crime in SA*

I have been following this forum on and off for sometime now and I thought I should share my opinion about the crime in SA. I have noticed that society(South Africans) seem to prefer to ignore the crime issues rather than deal with them as we are quite complacent. The media does not report all the crime either. I have read about a few farm attacks that have not been reported in the mainstream media and many other crimes.

Here is a website that keeps track of farm crime stats in SA and the stories behind the murders- www boerentrepreneur com/farmitracker/reports -This website one can browse any part of the country and it will give you an overview of the amount of farm attacks etc It's extremely high and very accurate!


The trend is very alarming! Im taking this quote from a guy called Jacob Ndlovu about the current crime problem in SA, "The current government are incompetent, short sighted and loaded with corruption. Crime is everywhere, including in the low socio economic areas where people get murdered on a daily basis. We need a more efficient criminal justice system as convictions take ages. We need the death penalty? Why because I know for a fact that crime/murder will decrease because these murderers will think twice before killing somebody....at the moment they don't think twice because IF they get caught they have 3 meals a day, room + bed, tv etc all at our expense for a few years then get released on good 'behaviour' knowing that they are now hardened criminals and will stop at nothing to do what they do best crime/murder. I am a educated black person that knows exactly how these people think- I have come across them and listened to the way they speak and they are something out of a horror story. I'm sorry to say this, but I warn the farmers and general public to arm themselves especially if you are a farmer and defend yourselves because one cannot rely on the cops or the courts! The ANC(African National Corruption) don't care about you and never will. This is the truth and I wouldn't be surprised if they try and censor my comments or come after me" Its on news24 and iafrica comments section.


I'm a victim of crime and know exactly what it feels like to lose a family member. Im not happy about the currebt situation in SA and with Zuma and the ANC singing 'Dubula Ibhulu'(kill the whites/farmers)...


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

Moyes said:


> I have been following this forum on and off for sometime now and I thought I should share my opinion about the crime in SA. I have noticed that society(South Africans) seem to prefer to ignore the crime issues rather than deal with them as we are quite complacent. The media does not report all the crime either. I have read about a few farm attacks that have not been reported in the mainstream media and many other crimes.
> 
> Here is a website that keeps track of farm crime stats in SA and the stories behind the murders- www boerentrepreneur com/farmitracker/reports -This website one can browse any part of the country and it will give you an overview of the amount of farm attacks etc It's extremely high and very accurate!
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting.... always interesting to hear the view of a black person who has lived in SA and knows the situation. I often wondered what professional educated black people in SA think about the situation as opinions of white people are often considered to be based on race rather than experience / knowledge. Whilst I have no family members or connection to the farming community I always feel strongly about them - particularly those in Zimbabwe who we know have had farms burned down and family members and farm workers killed in the name of land distribution. I had been hoping this wasn't going on in SA so will have a look at the link you mentioned to educate myself better. Sorry to hear you were a victim of crime. Hope you are happy in New Zealand.


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## Moyes (Nov 3, 2011)

Yes, it is very interesting to hear the thoughts of an educated black person in SA. Now I know how bad the crime situation is in SA for Jacob to say something like that. He is not the only one to speak out about the crime problem in SA. I have heard on numerous occasions from the educated black people on forums and in news that they have had enough of the crime etc Have a look at the website and see for yourself....

Im happy in New Zealand. Its a very peaceful country. I can walk around Auckland CBD late at night without having to worry about getting mugged or murdered. I might get the odd drunk teenager acting like a moron. However, I do miss my family and the weather in S A. 

This week alone, A Hazelview,KZN lodge manager(David Foxon) was killed in front of his family(http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Senseless-murder-shocks-Hazyview-20120412 and another farmer(Christo van Rensburg) was petrol bomed in Heilbron but managed to to get away for help and is in hospital...Its on news24 and the website I sent in my previous post. I can go on and on about the amount of murders...but I suggest you check for yourself.

What we see on the mainstream news is nothing compared to when you look for the truth and the stats...

One thing is for sure; you wouldnt pay me to farm in SA or to live in Johannesburg. Crime and police corruption is hectic! South Africa has the highest farm murder rate in the world. 

Such a beautiful country with so much potential.....but its getting destroyed unfortunately!


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## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

RAVB said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been following several forums and have got a lot of information which has been very helpful....thank you.
> 
> ...



Hi RAVB, just re-visiting the post... Did you move to SA? I am here now and re-reading your reply I am curious to see how you are getting on...


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## lom (Mar 15, 2012)

MarcelleK said:


> Hi hun
> 
> We are moving in October from London (I am from Cape Town) and my husband from NZ. This is completely unrelated to your questions, but just want to know what visa you are entering (I assume you are British??). We are a bit stuck on my husband's visa and not sure which one to apply for and getting so many mixed messages so noticed your post and wondered what you are doing......
> 
> ...



Hi, Realize my reply comes very late!! We are in SA now and I came on a family visa (life partner visa) I am actually not English but Icelandic! 

The application is still in a process but I only applied after having stayed here on a visitors visa for 2 months.

Are you guys here now? Would love to hear all about it!

We are in Somerset West, just waiting for summer now!


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## chris rossouw (Nov 8, 2012)

Hi 

I am currently in Cape Town and would like to meet with as many expats as possible. Any contacts would be appreciated.



Best wishes

Chris


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