# How do 'they' know if I live here or not?



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The question of whether or not to register as resident & how 'they' will know if you don't, comes up over & again in various threads.

I'm sure Xàbia isn't the only town checking very carefully......


OFFICIALS TO VISIT HOUSES TO UPDATE MUNICIPAL REGISTER




> Council officials are visiting houses across the municipality to update the municipal register after latest figures showed that the registered population of Xàbia dropped to 27,681 in 2015, a fall of more than 5,700 since the peak of 33,419 just two years ago. With immediate effect, some residents can expect a council official during the afternoon who will be simply checking if those on the register are still in Xàbia or have left.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
Do you have to answer the door?
I would simply "not be in" - if they called!
Cheers
Steve


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> Do you have to answer the door?
> I would simply "not be in" - if they called!
> Cheers
> Steve


lol - thing is, you wouldn't know who it was.... & probably would answer the door.

The Guardia Civil have been doing this for a couple of years already, tbh - & they carry big guns........ they were checking padrón (which is a list of people living in the town) against tax & registered resident lists

It's daft not registering on the padrón if you live in Spain. It costs nothing - & the town gets much needed funds for each resident from central govt. .


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm glad checks are being run - wish they would do it everywhere - but it seems to me it doesn't address the problem of those who actually live here whilst pretending they don't. Those people don't WANT to be on the padrón nor do they WANT to register, mainly because they want to evade paying Spanish taxes, or want to continue collecting UK benefits and using the NHS because they can't get state healthcare cover in Spain. If the police or Guardia came knocking on the door they would just claim they are on holiday at their second home.

I really think all passports should be scanned on entry and exit from the country, and checks run to find out those who have been in Spain for more than six months at a time, then compare the information with those who are on the list of registered foreign residents.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I'm glad checks are being run - wish they would do it everywhere - but it seems to me it doesn't address the problem of those who actually live here whilst pretending they don't. Those people don't WANT to be on the padrón nor do they WANT to register, mainly because they want to evade paying Spanish taxes, or want to continue collecting UK benefits and using the NHS because they can't get state healthcare cover in Spain. If the police or Guardia came knocking on the door they would just claim they are on holiday at their second home.
> 
> I really think all passports should be scanned on entry and exit from the country, and checks run to find out those who have been in Spain for more than six months at a time, then compare the information with those who are on the list of registered foreign residents.


Lots of older people / pensioners claimed to not live here because they wanted to keep using the NHS in the UK

They no longer have that excuse - yet I bet they still find one


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I think it should be six years imprisonment for not signing on the Padron and life in el Nick for those not declaring their tax status..

As for those who don't register their left hand drive car on their 720 Modelo health insurance card within 6 months of their dogs residency -shootings too good for them!!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> It's daft not registering on the padrón if you live in Spain. It costs nothing -


Unless you have kids and need an official translation of birth certificates or a family book, then it's not so free.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> I think it should be six years imprisonment for not signing on the Padron and life in el Nick for those not declaring their tax status..
> 
> As for those who don't register their left hand drive car on their 720 Modelo health insurance card within 6 months of their dogs residency -shootings too good for them!!


I don't want anybody to spend a day in prison for tax evasion - it's pointless and just costs the people who do pay their taxes money to keep them there. I just want people to pay what they should and for effective means to be in place to make sure they do. That shouldn't be too much to ask, should it?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Unless you have kids and need an official translation of birth certificates or a family book, then it's not so free.


But you don't need that to be on the padrón. All you (should) need is proof of address such as your rental contract or property ownership papers - & national ID documents (passport for Brits) for each person. 

Even if your ayto is (wrongly) insisting on those docs., you'll need them anyway for registering as resident - so you'll have to pay for the apostilles &/or translations for that.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Yeah it is weird, we already had our residency cards and the kids cards are the same as ours. They accepted us with these cards and untranslated passports plus deeds and electricity bill yet with the kids the passports and same residency cards as ours they were unacceptable and wanted the family book but then said it needed to be translated for them to accept it.

Quite odd as they have signs saying any document including passports need to be translated but clearly they accepted ours with no problem.
Oh well.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> lol - thing is, you wouldn't know who it was.... & probably would answer the door.
> 
> The Guardia Civil have been doing this for a couple of years already, tbh - & they carry big guns........ they were checking padrón (which is a list of people living in the town) against tax & registered resident lists
> 
> It's daft not registering on the padrón if you live in Spain. It costs nothing - & the town gets much needed funds for each resident from central govt. .


Never known the GC to do that ? Comes under Policia Local here .


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Never known the GC to do that ? Comes under Policia Local here .


I was surprised as well - but it was def the men in green who turned up at a friends' house!


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

It was policia local who called at our house early January last year (2015), an elderly officer-dressed in blue, they still had the previous owner of our house on the padron. As far as we know, and were told by the previous owner, he was moving to France, he obviously did not take his name off the padron.
We were both on the padron, and able to vote in the local elections last year.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Our Ayuntamiento (Why are they always Excelentisimo - when excellence very rarely comes into it?) is bemoaning the fact that we seem to have lost 835 people.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Unless you have kids and need an official translation of birth certificates or a family book, then it's not so free.



I've heard Americans and Brits on the forum talking about this family book. I've never heard of this. What is it?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well in our case it is a "Livret de famille" issued from France which is basically a family register.
The have something similar in Spain called the "Libro de familia".
This tends to be used here for anything in regards for our kids, for example if there is a package at correos addressed to them then they need to see the family book despite the kid having there own residency cards with photo ID and or passports.

Other than that the town hall is the only other place that has asked for it so far but they want it translated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_register

We have nothing of the sort in Australia so it was new to me too.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Well in our case it is a "Livret de famille" issued from France which is basically a family register.
> The have something similar in Spain called the "Libro de familia".
> This tends to be used here for anything in regards for our kids, for example if there is a package at correos addressed to them then they need to see the family book despite the kid having there own residency cards with photo ID and or passports.
> 
> ...


We don't have them in the UK either. We've never had one in Spain & never needed one. My understanding was that you only get this if you are married here or have a child born here.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Always reading here about all the immigrants moving to UK doing things their own way and not adapting to the UK way of living, by not doing things properly, calling them all sort of names under the sun and wanting them to go back to their own countries, I read this here very often. 

The amount of Brits immigrants in Spain doing pretty much the same or worse is greater and you think it is right? 

If you live in Spain for longer than 6 months, you should register with the Town Hall, the more residents, the more money, and more things for your village or city. I have met so many brits immigrants in this village alone that are doing things their 'own way', that if I could, I would send them to the UK right away, lol! ... and don't get me started on those that have lived here for 20 years and are still no residents and speak no spanish at all... those are the worst!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> We don't have them in the UK either. We've never had one in Spain & never needed one. My understanding was that you only get this if you are married here or have a child born here.


I think if you are Spanish or French these are fairly normal documents to have.
For expats I don't really know what the standing is or what the alternative for those who don't have such a book. Birth certificates perhaps?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lolito said:


> Always reading here about all the immigrants moving to UK doing things their own way and not adapting to the UK way of living, by not doing things properly, calling them all sort of names under the sun and wanting them to go back to their own countries, I read this here very often.
> 
> The amount of Brits immigrants in Spain doing pretty much the same or worse is greater and *you think it is right?*


The majority of us on this forum do NOT approve and by "majority" I mean 99%



Lolito said:


> If you live in Spain for longer than 6 months, you should register with the Town Hall, the more residents, the more money, and more things for your village or city. I have met so many brits immigrants in this village alone that are doing things their 'own way', that if I could, I would send them to the UK right away, lol! ... and don't get me started on those that have lived here for 20 years and are still no residents and speak no spanish at all... those are the worst!


OK, so you are incensed by it. Have you done anything about it? It is no good griping to us about it if YOU do nothing. I have had run-ins with several expats who used to live near here, one of whom had half a dozen UK registered cars and used to swap them about so that he wasn't seen too often in the same car, which says it pretty clearly that he *knew* he was in the wrong.

BTW, registering on the Padron does not require six months residence to qualify - as soon as one becomes a resident, one should register on the Padron.

Perhaps you are confusing this forum with another where the above mentioned attitudes are common.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Lolito said:


> Always reading here about all the immigrants moving to UK doing things their own way and not adapting to the UK way of living, by not doing things properly, calling them all sort of names under the sun and wanting them to go back to their own countries, I read this here very often.
> 
> The amount of Brits immigrants in Spain doing pretty much the same or worse is greater and you think it is right?
> 
> If you live in Spain for longer than 6 months, you should register with the Town Hall, the more residents, the more money, and more things for your village or city. I have met so many brits immigrants in this village alone that are doing things their 'own way', that if I could, I would send them to the UK right away, lol! ... and don't get me started on those that have lived here for 20 years and are still no residents and speak no spanish at all... those are the worst!


The British really do have a bad name for this kind of behaviour. We got chatting to a Frenchman on holiday who said there are lots of British people living in his area, but in his words "they live separately, watch English TV, eat English food and don't speak French".


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> I think if you are Spanish or French these are fairly normal documents to have.
> For expats I don't really know what the standing is or what the alternative for those who don't have such a book. Birth certificates perhaps?


I had to get the kids' birth certs apostilled - can't get a Libro de Familia


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I was surprised as well - but it was def the men in green who turned up at a friends' house!


Come to think of it - they were checking why they weren't registered as resident...maybe that's more serious!


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Baldi, I am not talking about people in this forum. As you will know, I have had lots of run-in with Brits living in my area, woman moaning at the cashier in Mercadona because she didn't speak any English, or the woman moaning in the post office because they couldn't understand a simple request like 'a want a stamp for the uk' (in English language), or the people that only socialize with other Brits by doing quizzes in pubs, sunday roasts dinners here, or Xmas cakes there... each to their own I suppose, but if you move to Spain, at least try to blend in a little bit with Spaniards, your life, I am sure would be better for it, the better you speak Spanish, the more people you would reach and more things you will get. 

I don't really know the rules for empadronamiento, as I am Spanish and as soon as I move to another village/city within Spain, the very first thing I always do is register with the Town Hall, as I need the empadronamiento to register with my GP, Hacienda, Change addresses for numerous things, etc. So for me, it was always the most important thing to do, as without the empadronamiento, there are far too many things I can't do or get. 

First thing I did when I moved to the UK, was to go to the Spanish Consulate in London to register as resident. 

...and yes, my next door neighbor drives an UK plated car, for 11 years, we tried to tell him what you just said, and we are not longer on speaking terms, according to him, we are nosy people, lol!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Always reading here about all the immigrants moving to UK doing things their own way and not adapting to the UK way of living, by not doing things properly, calling them all sort of names under the sun and wanting them to go back to their own countries, I read this here very often.
> 
> The amount of Brits immigrants in Spain doing pretty much the same or worse is greater and you think it is right?
> 
> If you live in Spain for longer than 6 months, you should register with the Town Hall, the more residents, the more money, and more things for your village or city. I have met so many brits immigrants in this village alone that are doing things their 'own way', that if I could, I would send them to the UK right away, lol! ... and don't get me started on those that have lived here for 20 years and are still no residents and speak no spanish at all... those are the worst!


You're right - & it's very frustrating for those of us who do things correctly!

If something was done about the Brits in Jávea not on the padrón/ driving a foreign plated car/ living here but 'not really  ' / working on the black / not doing tax returns / never try to learn Spanish / etc. ................. the figures would be very different.

There would for sure be a lot more foreigners on the padrón - or perhaps not - perhaps if they were all told to get ALL their paperwork in order or leave, there would be a lot less.....

I know so many like this - who would never *dream * of breaking the law in the UK.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Of course people should do the right thing but sometimes it can be confusing and a bit daft. 

Someone who stays for 4 months continuous in an entire year must sign up yet someone who goes back and forth maybe 10 weeks at a time totalling 7 or 8 months doesn't need to!!!

Surely the latter person is using the local facilities more


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lolito said:


> Baldi, I am not talking about people in this forum. As you will know, I have had lots of run-in with Brits living in my area, woman moaning at the cashier in Mercadona because she didn't speak any English, or the woman moaning in the post office because they couldn't understand a simple request like 'a want a stamp for the uk' (in English language), or the people that only socialize with other Brits by doing quizzes in pubs, sunday roasts dinners here, or Xmas cakes there... each to their own I suppose, but if you move to Spain, at least try to blend in a little bit with Spaniards, your life, I am sure would be better for it, the better you speak Spanish, the more people you would reach and more things you will get.


I was responding to your statement and, in particular, the bit in bold: The amount of Brits immigrants in Spain doing pretty much the same or worse is greater and* you think it is right*? 

Like Xabia, we play by the rules and according to the others in the village we *are* integrated and take part in village life. SWMBO has been asked to judge the offerings at the cherry festival and also to judge the pesebres.



Lolito said:


> ...and yes, my next door neighbor drives an UK plated car, for 11 years, we tried to tell him what you just said, and we are not longer on speaking terms, according to him, we are nosy people, lol!


I have had that experience as well - there are several with whom I am not on speaking terms - no skin off my nose!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Of course people should do the right thing but sometimes it can be confusing and a bit daft.
> 
> Someone who stays for 4 months continuous in an entire year must sign up yet someone who goes back and forth maybe 10 weeks at a time *totalling 7 or 8 months doesn't need to!!!*
> 
> Surely the latter person is using the local facilities more


But that person is classed as a "tax resident" and is therefore subject tp Spanish taxation on his/her worldwide income.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

There is also of course another side to this- some have a " snobbery" with others because they are more advanced with the lingo etc. Live and let live, or as I have learnt so far with my online Spanish- vivre et laisser vivre


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> But that person is classed as a "tax resident" and is therefore subject tp Spanish taxation on his/her worldwide income.



Yeah tax resident but no need to be on the local register


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Interestingly, I know someone who is planning to move to Spain longer term than he is at the moment, but he wants the freedom to flit between the two countries at leisure, he certainly doesnt want to be restricted by any 90 or 183 day rules. He's been to see an abogado, who has advised him to keep his UK address (he's only going to rent in Spain) and tell the Spanish authorities that he is a visitor. If he has any health issues while in spain to use his EHIC card - but is this right? The only thing he's not sure about is a car - he's planning to use a UK car in Spain, as he will officially only be a tourist?


Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

As has been highlighted today elsewhere he can legally get away with up to 6 months using his UK car

It's all a bit messy as it relates to residency not tax residency so a trip out of the country can reset the clock up to 6 months in a year


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> Of course people should do the right thing but sometimes it can be confusing and a bit daft.
> 
> Someone who stays for 4 months continuous in an entire year must sign up yet someone who goes back and forth maybe 10 weeks at a time totalling 7 or 8 months doesn't need to!!!
> 
> Surely the latter person is using the local facilities more




I think they do!

They are here for most of the time (more than 50% of the time), so this is their main residence. As such, don't they have to register on the padron?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Not until they do 90 days CONSECUTIVE


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> Not until they do 90 days CONSECUTIVE


Not true!

If they are in Spain for more than 183 days in a calendar year but never more than 90 days in one go, they are still TAX RESIDENT.

It is also classed as their main centre if economic interest so they are (domicile) resident here as well.

So, they have to register!


The 90 day ruling has little, if anything, to do with it - they are simple "supposed" to register on the list of foreigners. This doesn't actually make them resident.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Nope

You can be tax resident but not resident


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> Nope
> 
> You can be tax resident but not resident


Agreed.

I think you need to look into this a lot more - look up "centre of economic interest".

Signing on the list of foreigners does NOT make you resident.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I never said it did

All I said was if you didn't spend more than 90 consecutive days you didn't need to sign on

Tax 183 days are cumulative- so a very different story

Centre of economic interest is another " elastic" scenario too as property, wage back home also is taken into account

This has been done to death sooooo many times we best agree to differ


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
The other thing to remember is that British citizens have the right to reside and work in other EU countries (unlike immigrants from non-Eu countries - who have certain restrictions).
Cheers
Steve


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

> the British Embassy advises that it is obligatory by Spanish law to register on the padrón at the Town Hall where you reside.


... and the key there is reside which is why I mention "centre of economic/vital interests"

Yes, let's agree to disagree but this just shows how confusing it all is and why many don't know what to do!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Well in our case it is a "Livret de famille" issued from France which is basically a family register.
> The have something similar in Spain called the "Libro de familia".
> This tends to be used here for anything in regards for our kids, for example if there is a package at correos addressed to them then they need to see the family book despite the kid having there own residency cards with photo ID and or passports.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining that, Pazcat and Xabiachica. I didn't know that. Interesting. I found this on Wiki:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_de_Familia

So the libro de familia in Spain is registered here: RegistroCivil.es - Gestión de certificados de nacimiento, matrimonio y defunción


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Oh sheesh, I apologise for the spelling in that post above.
Never attempt much before that 2nd coffee.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

On an side re keeping track of your entry/ exit from Spain for your own purposes it's got more difficult with our new Irish credit card style passports as mine is much handier for keeping in my wallet- but obviously they are not possible to stamp for your proof of entry/ exit dates


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Oh sheesh, I apologise for the spelling in that post above.
> Never attempt much before that 2nd coffee.


LOL! I'm about to have my second one too. Cheers!

Honestly, I didn't even notice. My job for 30 years was medical transcription, so now I automatically go into edit mode and can read just about anything and understand it.  

....Mind you, if I'm anxious or overwhelmed I have a reading disability and can't read even the simplest info.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> The British really do have a bad name for this kind of behaviour. We got chatting to a Frenchman on holiday who said there are lots of British people living in his area, but in his words "they live separately, watch English TV, eat English food and don't speak French".


Not just the British, most countries are the same. The Germans, Dutch have their own shops, bars, bakeries on the coast. In the UK the Polish have their own shops/food. Asians have their own TV too and read the Pakistani, Indian newspapers. Lots of bars run by Spanish too in London and the South coast. Not to mention all the Chinatowns all over the place. Probably the same the world over. They probably have their own forums too instead of chatting on the ones of the country they live in


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Isobella, -The swines


Anyway I remember here in Belfast in the 70s one of the very first Chinese restaurants opened and my uncle in true Belfadt parochial manner proclaimed- " it won't last a week, sure there's no Chinese people around here!"


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> I've heard Americans and Brits on the forum talking about this family book. I've never heard of this. What is it?


 hhhhhhh


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Elyles said:


> hhhhhhh


I see you edited your post. What the what does that mean? LOL!

Yes, I saw in Pazcat's link to Wiki that Americans don't use a family book.

No, it wasn't the American guy who was talking about living here illegally. As soon as he started talking about living here illegally, he was blackballed by everyone - including me. That's one of the reasons I like this forum, that there is a rule here that people are not allowed to encourage illegal activity.

The context I've heard Americans talk about the family book is when they're claiming Spanish citizenship through a Spanish parent, which now makes sense.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Isobella said:


> Not just the British, most countries are the same. The Germans, Dutch have their own shops, bars, bakeries on the coast. In the UK the Polish have their own shops/food. Asians have their own TV too and read the Pakistani, Indian newspapers. Lots of bars run by Spanish too in London and the South coast. Not to mention all the Chinatowns all over the place. Probably the same the world over. They probably have their own forums too instead of chatting on the ones of the country they live in


....including Canada too.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Not just the British, most countries are the same. The Germans, Dutch have their own shops, bars, bakeries on the coast. In the UK the Polish have their own shops/food. Asians have their own TV too and read the Pakistani, Indian newspapers. Lots of bars run by Spanish too in London and the South coast. Not to mention all the Chinatowns all over the place. Probably the same the world over. They probably have their own forums too instead of chatting on the ones of the country they live in


The main difference being that the Germans, Dutch, Polish, Chinese etc. all seem able to learn and speak the language of whatever country they have emigrated to.

We met some new neighbours yesterday as some mail for them had been delivered to our house by mistake, whilst we were away. They are from Zimbabwe and the Netherlands, and of course speak English perfectly, but mentioned they are finding it hard to communicate with people here despite having been learning Spanish before arriving. I offered to help out with anything official they might need, and told them about the free Spanish lessons for foreigners at our local Adult Education Institute. They were very keen to sign up. I contrast their attitude with the many British people I know who have been living here for years and still speak no more than a few words of Spanish (mainly to order drinks), have never tried to learn more nor do they ever have any intention to. On the other hand, I know German, Hungarian, Swedish, Norwegian, Belgian and French people living here who all speak pretty good Spanish. If they can do it, why can't the majority of the British?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

There are a lot of foreigners in the UK who can't speak English. Perhaps that is why our translation bill is about £100 million and climbing. 

Personally I couldn't live in a country where I didn't have good knowledge of the language. However, many Brits who move to Spain are in their sixties, not all are well educated, some could be dyslexic or even don't see the need if on the Costas. A lot of people earn a lot of money from the ones who don't speak it.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

In an ideal world yes they should make the effort

However for the various reasons you have pointed out- not least because for many their chosen lifestyle doesn't require it- live and let live, are they really doing any harm sitting over their half of Bitter chatting away to fellow Brits at bingo.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Most of the people I referred to of other nationalities who are living here are the same age as us, or older, and that hasn't stopped them learning to speak Spanish to a good functional level. Likewise, many of the British people I know here came here in their '40s or '50s but still never even tried to learn Spanish, they don't all arrive as pensioners.

So what if people make money out of those who don't speak Spanish? The point Lolito was making is that if people want to live in another country they should have the basic courtesy to at least try to learn the language, and a lot of the Spanish people I have met have no high opinion of the ones who don't bother, although they might be polite to them on the surface.

After all, the British are not very impressed by foreigners who go to live there and do not learn English, are they?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Thats something that annoys me in the UK though. foreigners who live here and dont speak English - well, when they go to visit a GP, hospital or any NHS clinican, the NHS pay for a fully qualified translator, an english speaking relative wont do, it has to be a fully qualified translator and written up afterwards in their language and that costs a fortune to the NHS. This doesnt happen in Spain. Apparently in Spain there are volunteers who help out - with no formal qualifications.

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> In an ideal world yes they should make the effort
> 
> However for the various reasons you have pointed out- not least because for many their chosen lifestyle doesn't require it- live and let live, are they really doing any harm sitting over their half of Bitter chatting away to fellow Brits at bingo.


Ask Lolito, a Spaniard living in Spain. Judging by what he has said, and what Spanish neighbours have said to me about other British neighbours who don't bother to learn Spanish, they find it very irksome indeed. I wouldn't want my Spanish neighbours to feel that way about me - would you?


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Isobella said:


> There are a lot of foreigners in the UK who can't speak English. Perhaps that is why our translation bill is about £100 million and climbing. Personally I couldn't live in a country where I didn't have good knowledge of the language. However, many Brits who move to Spain are in their sixties, not all are well educated, some could be dyslexic or even don't see the need if on the Costas. A lot of people earn a lot of money from the ones who don't speak it.


 In the States there are many micro communities in larger cities where there is little or no English spoken. I was a firm believer in learning the language where you live. As a youth, I learned Japanese, a bit of Spanish, French and Latin. I now remember little of anything except Spanish. I studied Spanish in high school, undergrad school and again after my career. Never having opportunities to use a language also impedes learning it. I used to get pissed at people in the US who made no effort to learn English. I feel the same from this side and a constant effort to improve my Spanish. It's only about respecting your current home culture.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I think there's a happy medium in all this

Certainly there is a degree of disrespect to not make any effort in your host country ( allowing for age, education level etc) but I also am wary of the " conformist police" types amongst ex pat communities who do get rather worked up over these matters.

If the locals - ESP traders- are happy enough to understand their customers pigeon Spanish and accept their money- surely these lingo refuseniks are contributing to the country.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Ask Lolito, a Spaniard living in Spain. Judging by what he has said, and what Spanish neighbours have said to me about other British neighbours who don't bother to learn Spanish, they find it very irksome indeed. I wouldn't want my Spanish neighbours to feel that way about me - would you?


I understand what you are saying- then again ask the Spanish bar owners/ shop keepers if they will refuse to take the customers money if they do not speak the proper lingo....

Whilst I am reasonably fluent in the language of my current host country I can assure you having travelled much of the globe it's mainly ex pats- not locals- who get worked up on this issue as I have never been refused service in a bar or shop due to my lack of local language


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> I think there's a happy medium in all this


Has somebody been feeding her gin again? The medium, that is.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> Thats something that annoys me in the UK though. foreigners who live here and dont speak English - well, when they go to visit a GP, hospital or any NHS clinican, the NHS pay for a fully qualified translator, an english speaking relative wont do, it has to be a fully qualified translator and written up afterwards in their language and that costs a fortune to the NHS. This doesnt happen in Spain. Apparently* in Spain there are volunteers who help out - with no formal qualifications.*
> 
> Jo xxx


And, often, if they don't have any medical training or good knowledge of medical terminology, tend to either mis-translate or skip lightly over the bits with which they are unfamiliar.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well said Baldilocks , indeed don't get me started re these medical translation errors.

I was Mrs Rabbitcat before a fateful visit to a foreign hospital, only went there to complain of tummy ache

Mr Rabbitcat


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well said Baldilocks , indeed don't get me started re these medical translation errors.
> 
> I was Mrs Rabbitcat before a fateful visit to a foreign hospital, only went there to complain of tummy ache
> 
> Mr Rabbitcat


There was a case of the opposite situation where a guy who sung bass-baritone in the local choir went in to see the consultant, he was having a similar problem with pains in his nether region. The guy said "I think I need caster-oil" Unfortunately the translator got slightly mixed and and said to the Doc, that the patient wanted castration. Now he sings with the boy-sopranos.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Isobella said:


> There are a lot of foreigners in the UK who can't speak English. Perhaps that is why our translation bill is about £100 million and climbing.
> 
> Personally I couldn't live in a country where I didn't have good knowledge of the language. However, many Brits who move to Spain are in their sixties, not all are well educated, some could be dyslexic or even don't see the need if on the Costas. A lot of people earn a lot of money from the ones who don't speak it.


Trained and qualified translators are there to make sure nothing gets lost in translation. Is your 'good knowledge of the language ' good enough to go and start talking to doctors using vocabulary not used everyday? I know mine isn't. I get by very well doing normal stuff but put me in an unusual situation, like going to hospital, and I'd be like a deer caught in the headlights. I should imagine it's the same for 'foreigners' in the UK. I think it's great that the NHS can help them at such a potentially nervous and distressing time and I wish it was available here, rather than wishing it wasn't available there.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> I understand what you are saying- then again ask the Spanish bar owners/ shop keepers if they will refuse to take the customers money if they do not speak the proper lingo....
> 
> Whilst I am reasonably fluent in the language of my current host country I can assure you having travelled much of the globe it's mainly ex pats- not locals- who get worked up on this issue as I have never been refused service in a bar or shop due to my lack of local language


There is more to life in a new country than commerce, though, surely? Shopkeepers won't refuse to take customers' money, but if the customer can't communicate properly what they need nor understand what the shopkeeper is saying to them about delivery, guarantees, or can't handle taking something back to the shop if it's faulty, then it's not likely to be a very satisfactory encounter from either side. The people who express irritation to me about their British neighbours who can't speak Spanish aren't selling them anything - they are just trying to be friendly with people who are living amongst them, or trying to help them out with information, but can't have even a simple conversation with them. They don't mind when people are newly arrived, but once 3 years or more have passed and the situation hasn't changed, they get pretty irritated about it, and they definitely see it as a lack of good manners.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Helenameva said:


> Trained and qualified translators are there to make sure nothing gets lost in translation. Is your 'good knowledge of the language ' good enough to go and start talking to doctors using vocabulary not used everyday? I know mine isn't. I get by very well doing normal stuff but put me in an unusual situation, like going to hospital, and I'd be like a deer caught in the headlights. I should imagine it's the same for 'foreigners' in the UK. I think it's great that the NHS can help them at such a potentially nervous and distressing time and I wish it was available here, rather than wishing it wasn't available there.


Did I say anything about wishing it was not available 

What I am pointing out it is not just a British trait. Happens all over the world. I don't see why we Brits should beat ourself up about it. Statistically I bet there are a lot on this forum who speak about 50 words of Spanish criticising those who speak only 20 words


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

To be honest, if some Brits lived in Spain all their lives and don't speak Spanish, it does not bother me, after all, live and let live and if they can get by in Spain without speaking the language, then good for them, who am I to say anything? 

However, what I don't like is when this very same people moan constantly about everything being 'this way' in Spain and when 'no-one around here speak English', as I said many times, we (Spanish people) DO NOT have to speak English, so you can understand us. 

In my street, I have an 83 y.o. lady, who lives alone, since her husband passed away a few years ago. I am really embarrassed when I talk to her, she has been living in Spain for 20-odd years and her Spanish is (I guarantee you!) much better than mine!!! She is German. 

Further down the road, a couple of houses, you have an elderly couple, they are well in their 70s, the also speak proper Spanish, to the point that sometimes they do correct me in my own language! They are both French. 

On the other side, I have a couple, man and woman, they don't speak to anyone on the street, they keep themselves to themselves, they only say 'hi' or 'bye' without even making eye contact. They have lived here for 18 years, not a word of Spanish other than 'gracias y adios'. They are British. 

We are not talking to them anymore, but when we used to, they kept moaning and moaning and moaning about every silly thing, according to them, every Spanish person should at least make the effort to learn English as English is the most talked language in the world and you can't just go around not speaking English. Their words, not mine!

My friend here, owns a bar. He is as happy as Larry and it seems like the bar has been taken over by Brits, doing quizzes, raffles, and all sort of things in his bar, it is good business for him as his bar is always packed with Brits doing things. 

He is now going to English classes as according to him, 99% of his customers don't speak Spanish and they can only say 'cerveza' even when they just want some coffee... lol! He gets irritated a bit as he tends to spend all the time in the bar hearing people speaking English and he can't really socialize much other than just being there standing by the bar taking orders in English, he gets a bit lonely so sometimes I go there and keep him company, no-one knows me, so they don't know whether I understand English or not, so lately I don't go much as whenever I go, the only thing I hear is 'how good things are in the UK and how bad things are in Spain' most of the times I feel like saying 'then go back to your country is everything there is so dandy and hunky dory' .... 

I love the UK, and I love British people and I love my English hubby and everything British, but reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy there are timesssssssssssss I could realllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy strangle someoneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

Sorry for my spelling and/or grammar, I type fast and can't be bothered to read all this crap, lol!


BTW - I am generalising, of course!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Calm down Lolita, it's only a forum


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Hi Lolito,

Since I constantly have the "stereotype" applied to me that Americans (_estadounidenses_, there, I've used the correct terminology) are monolingual I love your comments exposing not Americans, but the monolingual AND mono-cultural British. I really believe their numbers are pretty small, but I really don't know, sounds like you have seen more of them than me. I do know that you are not alone among Spaniards to have this viewpoint. I posted (somewhat tongue-in-check) my Spanish friend's similar attitude and it was not received well on this forum, quite understandably. I love this ***** in the armor of the image of the "multi-lingual superior European mind" which itself is just a stereotype. 

Well, I consider myself a bit of an OCD exception in how far I've taken my studies academically, but if anything, as I've progressed in languages I've become much less of a snob (never was one really, anyway, except I used to hate Spanglish and it doesn't bother me anymore) because so much of the attitudes about language are deeply embedded cultural references. 




Lolito said:


> To be honest, if some Brits lived in Spain all their lives and don't speak Spanish, it does not bother me, after all, live and let live and if they can get by in Spain without speaking the language, then good for them, who am I to say anything?
> 
> However, what I don't like is when this very same people moan constantly about everything being 'this way' in Spain and when 'no-one around here speak English', as I said many times, we (Spanish people) DO NOT have to speak English, so you can understand us.
> 
> ...


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

xolo said:


> Hi Lolito, Since I constantly have the "stereotype" applied to me that Americans (estadounidenses, there, I've used the correct terminology) are monolingual I love your comments exposing not Americans, but the monolingual AND mono-cultural British. I really believe their numbers are pretty small, but I really don't know, sounds like you have seen more of them than me. I do know that you are not alone among Spaniards to have this viewpoint. I posted (somewhat tongue-in-check) my Spanish friend's similar attitude and it was not received well on this forum, quite understandably. I love this ***** in the armor of the image of the "multi-lingual superior European mind" which itself is just a stereotype. Well, I consider myself a bit of an OCD exception in how far I've taken my studies academically, but if anything, as I've progressed in languages I've become much less of a snob (never was one really, anyway, except I used to hate Spanglish and it doesn't bother me anymore) because so much of the attitudes about language are deeply embedded cultural references.


 generally the undereducated Americans are neither monoligual nor multilingual but underlingual. I have ridden a road bicycle for many years and used to ride often in Texas. One area we rode through was Porter, Texas, which we affectionately called Deliverance, Texas where the locals lived in mobile homes and talked unusual dialects with a mouthful of tobacco. I remember once when resting at a store in the Middle of Nowhere, Texas and a large dump truck pulled in. From the driver's side an extremely short tobacco spitting thing jumped out talking a dialect that didn't even sound human. I guess all countries have their uneducated who talk differently from the rest. Many here assume I am French because it is close by and apparently their Spanish is poorly understood. Oh well, I'll stay in Español para los extranjeros clases for now own but still have a slight Texas twang. What I learned from living in Texas is the many colorful idioms there.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2016)

xolo said:


> Hi Lolito,
> 
> Since I constantly have the "stereotype" applied to me that Americans (_estadounidenses_, there, I've used the correct terminology) are monolingual I love your comments exposing not Americans, but the monolingual AND mono-cultural British. I really believe their numbers are pretty small, but I really don't know, sounds like you have seen more of them than me. I do know that you are not alone among Spaniards to have this viewpoint. I posted (somewhat tongue-in-check) my Spanish friend's similar attitude and it was not received well on this forum, quite understandably. I love this ***** in the armor of the image of the "multi-lingual superior European mind" which itself is just a stereotype.
> 
> Well, I consider myself a bit of an OCD exception in how far I've taken my studies academically, but if anything, as I've progressed in languages I've become much less of a snob (never was one really, anyway, except I used to hate Spanglish and it doesn't bother me anymore) because so much of the attitudes about language are deeply embedded cultural references.



I'm afraid some British people simply don't have the ability to learn Spanish/Catalan/Basque. I know a lot of people who have spent thousands trying to learn Spanish without success. I think a lot of this is related to the age of the person and the education background of the person in question.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

nigelk said:


> I'm afraid some British people simply don't have the ability to learn Spanish/Catalan/Basque. I know a lot of people who have spent thousands trying to learn Spanish without success. I think a lot of this is related to the age of the person and the education background of the person in question.


I am steadily learning more on a day to day basis and turn 65 this year. I seriously doubt that my PhD has anything to do with it. I know complete idiots that have PhD's. True, at my age it is slightly slower but I still learn. I had the basics prior to arrival here three years ago but nothing else. Basque, you can have it. As a kid I learned Japanese in three years but speak very little now. The problem with taking high school and college Spanish was having few opportunities to practice. You don't use it, you lose it! And, it is not just the British who have difficulty. My first exposure to Spanish was a Japanese Spanish speaking competition around 1966.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Elyles said:


> I am steadily learning more on a day to day basis and turn 65 this year. I seriously doubt that my PhD has anything to do with it. I know complete idiots that have PhD's. True, at my age it is slightly slower but I still learn. I had the basics prior to arrival here three years ago but nothing else. Basque, you can have it. As a kid I learned Japanese in three years but speak very little now. The problem with taking high school and college Spanish was having few opportunities to practice. * You don't use it, you lose it!* And, it is not just the British who have difficulty. My first exposure to Spanish was a Japanese Spanish speaking competition around 1966.


I can't entirely agree. I am 10 years ahead of you and was taught French to 'O' level at school so that is almost 60 years ago. I have never lived in France nor had opportunities to use what French I learnt, but I can still trot out quite a bit and, indeed, the other day I was responding in French to a friend of SWMBO who lives in France and is on F*ce*b**k (don't like to swear on a public forum.) IMHO it is a question of aptitude and interest. There are those who are good at languages (SWMBO and her mother) but give them mathematics, science or technical matters and they are lost.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> I can't entirely agree. I am 10 years ahead of you and was taught French to 'O' level at school so that is almost 60 years ago. I have never lived in France nor had opportunities to use what French I learnt, but I can still trot out quite a bit and, indeed, the other day I was responding in French to a friend of SWMBO who lives in France and is on F*ce*b**k (don't like to swear on a public forum.) IMHO it is a question of aptitude and interest. There are those who are good at languages (SWMBO and her mother) but give them mathematics, science or technical matters and they are lost.


I was good with math and sciences but hated English, History and Government


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Elyles said:


> I was good with math and sciences but hated English, History and Government


Likewise with maths and sciences, loved English grammar but not literature once we got a grammar teacher (v. literature ones), found history boring and irrelevant (teaching us all about stuff that bore little relevance to today and nothing about recent events such as 20th c.) French I enjoyed because the teacher was younger (about 30) and could relate better to us (11-16 y.o.) We never had anything on government or civics or anything of that nature.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Lolito said:


> However, what I don't like is when this very same people moan constantly about everything being 'this way' in Spain and when 'no-one around here speak English', as I said many times, we (Spanish people) DO NOT have to speak English, so you can understand us.


Somebody was telling me the other day about difficulties they had at the Guarda Civil even though one of them can speak Spanish quite well. Just a difficult accent or the vocab I suppose, it happens. The guy there tried to explain in alternative ways in Spanish but it didn't work, at which point he said that it might be better if the people return with a translator, and told them, "sorry but Spanish is the language here".

Absolutely right! In the UK we publicly fund a translation service the first time some obscure language is spoken by a new arrival (well we don't, but you get my point), and that's in the country that's home of the most widely spoken language in the world!

Good on Spain for this attitude. Don't waste precious public resources pandering to foreigners. I we want to live in Spain we have to deal with the language, by learning it or at our expense.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> There are a lot of foreigners in the UK who can't speak English. Perhaps that is why our translation bill is about £100 million and climbing.
> 
> Personally I couldn't live in a country where I didn't have good knowledge of the language. However, many Brits who move to Spain are in their sixties, not all are well educated, some could be dyslexic or even don't see the need if on the Costas. A lot of people earn a lot of money from the ones who don't speak it.


I don't give a toss whether Brits here live in British communities. It's their choice. Ditto whether they speak Spanish or not, provided they don't expect the rest of the world to speak English. i don't feel sorry for what they are missing as what they don't know they won't miss.
People tend to congregate in national communities, the world over. It seems a natural tendency. Many Muslim women in the UK apparently speak no English. If youmoan about this or the fact that people tend to cluster in communities, whether Polish, Somali, Pakistani or whwtever, you run the risk of being called a UKIP supporter.
I do get annoyed with immigrants who live under the radar....although a lot of Spanish do too.
But I think it's a myth that there are people who can't learn a language. It takes will and effort.
There are a few things I say I can't do and will never be able to learn to....like sewing, two handed keyboard typing and blow drying my hair
It's really because I can't be arsed to make the effort and I know I can get someone to do it for me.
I suspect this could be the case for some reluctant language learners.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Errrrm, what if you're a bit thick. 

I have a friend Jasper, no Cedric, yeah Cedric and he just cannot cope with learning new languages. What do you recommend he tries?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Errrrm, what if you're a bit thick.
> 
> I have a friend Jasper, no Cedric, yeah Cedric and he just cannot cope with learning new languages. What do you recommend he tries?


Unless he *needs* to learn other languages, then not to bother. There are many for whom just learning the mother tongue is difficult and not always very successful as can be witnessed with some posters on the forum.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> Errrrm, what if you're a bit thick.
> 
> I have a friend Jasper, no Cedric, yeah Cedric and he just cannot cope with learning new languages. What do you recommend he tries?


Being stuck somewhere where no- one, but no- one, speaks a word of English and where you need to learn the local lingo to be able to eat.
Like Sandra in the village of Cerny Vul.
On arrival she knew not one word of Czech. Three years later she could shop, exchange pleasantries and tell rip- off merchants where to put their stuff. She says she's useless at languages.
Needs must


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Unless he *needs* There are many for whom just learning the mother tongue is difficult and not always very successful as can be witnessed with some posters on the forum.


I wanted to say that but held back....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I wanted to say that but held back....


Getting very restrained in your 'old' age?

I often get told off for saying what I think rather than some pleasantry. Giving false impressions leads to a lot of problems in this world. Just say what you mean, dammit!


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Getting very restrained in your 'old' age?
> 
> I often get told off for saying what I think rather than some pleasantry. Giving false impressions leads to a lot of problems in this world. Just say what you mean, dammit!


I agree, although, I did learn that a two second delay had to be imposed before I said the first thing that entered my mind when I was outside of work.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Getting very restrained in your 'old' age?
> 
> I often get told off for saying what I think rather than some pleasantry. Giving false impressions leads to a lot of problems in this world. Just say what you mean, dammit!


We can't always do that. We may get a clip round the ear from the mods, or worse I have to come out and say I have a moment when people can't even spell the place they live in or intend to live in.

If people are hungry enough they will pick up the language but most expats aren't even peckish


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

I'm one who has poo-poo'd the idea that some people can't learn another language, maybe incorrectly so, but I'm pretty sure most and maybe even "almost everyone" can learn another language. But it does require a major time commitment. In my university program I need (2) more languages and it has really given me insight for my teaching to be a student in a beginning class.

But what has surprised me on this and other forums, is the _relatively _small interest in the Spanish language. The majority of posts are about day-to-day concerns like licensing a car, getting a NIE number, or the inevitable political discourse.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

Aptitude for learning languages can be greater in some than others. There are many factors that influence this, mild hearing impairments or visual impairments, for example. 

I am more naturally styled to strongly fact based subjects, physics etc. These are more suited to my own learning style. 

When it come to learning another language, my natural advantage is being fat. Although, no published works could be found on the internet, I believe there is a natural link between a love of tapas and an ability to learn and retain a new language. 

Necessity is the Mother of Invention, although, Hunger could be the Father of Linguistics


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Unless he *needs* to learn other languages, then not to bother. There are many for whom just learning the mother tongue is difficult and not always very successful as can be witnessed with some posters on the forum.


Ok, if we're in say-what-we-think mode....

The posters who then go on to ask about TEFL teaching


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

EdofWigan said:


> Aptitude for learning languages can be greater in some than others. There are many factors that influence this, mild hearing impairments or visual impairments, for example.
> 
> I am more naturally styled to strongly fact based subjects, physics etc. These are more suited to my own learning style.
> 
> ...


Ed I like the sound of this, overweight helps when learning a new language.

As I am so fat I actually create my own orbital gravitational pull, I will have no problems extending my command of Spanish. So cheers for that Ed- or as I have already learnt they say in Madrid, - "Skol!"


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

Rabbitcat said:


> Ed I like the sound of this, overweight helps when learning a new language.
> 
> As I am so fat I actually create my own orbital gravitational pull, I will have no problems extending my command of Spanish. So cheers for that Ed- or as I have already learnt they say in Madrid, - "Skol!"




I, in fairness, have a physiological imbalance that has caused my weight gain. I have eyes bigger than my stomach.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

EdofWigan said:


> I, in fairness, have a physiological imbalance that has caused my weight gain. I have eyes bigger than my stomach.


 Not psychological, perceptual! There is a true Psychological imbalance like this called Prader Willie's Syndrome where the satiation portion of the brain doesn't work and the person thinks they are starving. Generally people with this are also moderately mentally retarded. They are also generally morbidly obese. This diagnosis is rather rare. However, the cure for this and your issue are similar. Just have someone else keep a key to locked food availability. End of lesson on psychological trivia!


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

.... and here I was thinking I was a weirdo....


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