# Oposiciones



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Can anyone shed some light on what this means in Spain, how it works and any benefits in going this route.


From what I've gleaned, it seems to be that one can take the necessary exams linked to an area of interest/expertise. Once passed, these exams allow one to apply/take specific (Government) jobs which are then FOR LIFE.

For example, if I took and passed the required exams, I could then apply to be a town hall administrator (not that I would ) and I could not be removed from this post - ever.


I have Googled it but all I come across are either companies offering help in taking/passing the exams or positions that are available (like head of local police in xxx or parking traffic warden!).


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I've not heard of it at all. I will attempt to ask my Spanish friends and those who are in education. If I learn anything I will share...


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> From what I've gleaned, it seems to be that one can take the necessary exams linked to an area of interest/expertise. Once passed, these exams allow one to apply/take specific (Government) jobs which are then FOR LIFE.


According to my Spanish girlfriend this is what it is. You study for an exam and get a job and once you have it, it's near impossible to be sacked.

I know of a teacher that doesn't teach a thing.. just talks about politics for the entire class, maybe watches youtube videos and sings sometimes. He gets 'moved' every year to another poor school.

In the UK he would have been sacked after a week.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Can anyone shed some light on what this means in Spain, how it works and any benefits in going this route.
> 
> 
> From what I've gleaned, it seems to be that one can take the necessary exams linked to an area of interest/expertise. Once passed, these exams allow one to apply/take specific (Government) jobs which are then FOR LIFE.
> ...


This is completely correct. The government sets an amount of positions they want to fill in various public sector positions each year, and lots of people sit exams for them in the hope of getting a job for life, and a nice full pension at the end of it. During the crisis there haven't been that many places available, but this year, being an election year, suddenly saw lots of new positions suddenly become available.

I should add that oposiciones cover all sorts of functionary jobs from teachers and nurses to admin staff in various government departments.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

As I understand it, the downside is that you have to go where the job is, and it might mean working somewhere you really don't want to be ...

You are also in the front line for spending cuts. In the last recession funcionarios' salaries fell by 22% on average. In some places where the Ayuntamiento has run out of money they are four or five months' behind with their pay.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

As part of the labour reforms introduced in 2012, it was agreed that "funcionarios de carrera", ie those who had taken the oposiciones, would be the last to be made redundant under any ERE. But that does not mean it is impossible to make them redundant, therefore they cannot be said to be guaranteed a job for life.

Los empleados públicos por oposición serán los últimos despedidos en los ERE | EconomÃ­a | EL PAÃ�S


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

eeek! Who would want to be a funcionario, stuck in a job they hate, every day of their miserable life? 

not me.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lolito said:


> eeek! Who would want to be a funcionario, stuck in a job they hate, every day of their miserable life?
> 
> not me.


It depends on the job I guess, but I wouldn't like it either.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> eeek! Who would want to be a funcionario, stuck in a job they hate, every day of their miserable life?
> 
> not me.


Uhhhm.
1. It's not necessarily a job you hate
2. Nobody makes you stay in the job. You can leave.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

OH is a teacher in a state school. He teaches Business Aministration in FP. He likes his job and BA involves a wide range of subjects from typing and computing skills to learning about the Spanish constitution and basic workers rights. He is also sometimes in charge of the work experience programme. He finds it varied and challenging.
On his first job he was sent to a school that was 90 km away so he had a journey to close on 200km everyday for 3 years. Now he takes a bike a train and a bus to get to the school he's been sent to..
He has sat oposiciones a large number of times, has been number one in the lists for _*years*_, but has not been given a permanent contract which in Spain means being given a named position in a named school. 4 years ago through a complicated set of circumstances (when are they not complicated!?) he ended up with a contract. A teacher, on an old type of contract was retiring and was only teaching a quarter of a timetable. OH does the rest. Next year this finishes and OH has decided he's not going to go through the traumatic experience of studying for the opos which is an enormous mental effort, to end up yet again to be an interino and he'll be leaving teaching.
I think it's sad that one of the teachers who really does want to teach and who has in fact been teaching for years (maybe more than 15) hasn't been given a permanent contract.
He recently took la comunidad de Madrid to court for the _*second*_ time because they "forget" to pay him "antigüidad" (years service?)

Not all funcionarios are sitting on their butt all day getting paid a nice salary for the rest of their life.
Oh, I forgot to mention the pay cuts under Rajoy.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Can anyone shed some light on what this means in Spain, how it works and any benefits in going this route.
> 
> 
> From what I've gleaned, it seems to be that one can take the necessary exams linked to an area of interest/expertise. Once passed, these exams allow one to apply/take specific (Government) jobs which are then FOR LIFE.
> ...


I just wanted to add a couple of things.
My daughter is in her final year of a 4 year degree (a grado almost all of which are now 4 year courses) of pre school education. After this, if she wants to teach in the public sector she'd have to do oposiciones. I really am struggling to come to terms with this one. So you study, in her case at a state university for 4 years, and you still can't teach in the state system? Can you imagine how much it costs every year to write the exams, adminster the exams, correct them, make the results public etc etc? Of course the candidates have to pay for the privilege of doing yet another exam.
Same kind of thing happens in bachillerato. You study for 2 years, do your exam, get your leaving certificate and then you have to do selectividad to go into further education.
The other thing is that the content of the opos often aren't anything to do with the post that you're going for. A friend of ours worked in the local sports centre giving info, getting courts ready that kind of thing. I thought the exam might include stuff about first aid, sports equipment, maybe council regulations, but none of that came up.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I just wanted to add a couple of things.
> My daughter is in her final year of a 4 year degree (a grado almost all of which are now 4 year courses) of pre school education. After this, if she wants to teach in the public sector she'd have to do oposiciones. I really am struggling to come to terms with this one. So you study, in her case at a state university for 4 years, and you still can't teach in the state system? Can you imagine how much it costs every year to write the exams, adminster the exams, correct them, make the results public etc etc? Of course the candidates have to pay for the privilege of doing yet another exam.
> Same kind of thing happens in bachillerato. You study for 2 years, do your exam, get your leaving certificate and then you have to do selectividad to go into further education.
> The other thing is that the content of the opos often aren't anything to do with the post that you're going for. A friend of ours worked in the local sports centre giving info, getting courts ready that kind of thing. I thought the exam might include stuff about first aid, sports equipment, maybe council regulations, but none of that came up.



It all appears to be a bit of a con & money earner to me. Especially when you see that postmen/women & grave diggers( not really the right word. ) have to do them as well.


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## pictz (May 6, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Can anyone shed some light on what this means in Spain, how it works and any benefits in going this route.
> 
> From what I've gleaned, it seems to be that one can take the necessary exams linked to an area of interest/expertise. Once passed, these exams allow one to apply/take specific (Government) jobs which are then FOR LIFE.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's more or less what you said but:
- The test is for an specific position, for example, as you mentioned, town hall administrator. Thus, you only take the test for that position and you can't apply for a different position with that test. 
- You won't get the job by just passing the test. Let's say they offer 10 positions of administrator, then only the 10 people with the best scores will get the job. Doing oposiciones it's quite competitive because you normally have many people applying to few spots. 
- Not only the test give you the chance to have the position. You get points by having further education (master, PhD. ..), languages and experience. These will all give you points that will add towards the test results.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pictz said:


> - You won't get the job by just passing the test. Let's say they offer 10 positions of administrator, then only the 10 people with the best scores will get the job. Doing oposiciones it's quite competitive because you normally have many people applying to few spots.
> 
> - Not only the test give you the chance to have the position. You get points by having further education (master, PhD. ..), languages and experience. These will all give you points that will add towards the test results.


Comments written with state teachers in mind.

This is one of the things that is difficult for people from the UK to get their heads round (or maybe for any nationality that's not Spanish). The exams are not pass or fail exams. As pictz says you get points for the exam and points for other merits, such as having a certified level of English (hence the number of teachers taking the Cambridge exams. It's has little to do with if they have to teach in English or not. It's because of the much sought after points that they will get. This can also get you a wage increment).
So you get points and take the exam. Depending on which subject you're teaching and the number of interinos (non permanent teacher required) maybe you've got 1 miserable point, but you're on the list and you may get a job. The education authorities just work their way down the list.
The giving out of jobs is not really related to your ability or not. Teachers are never observed giving classes for example. The system just puts you on a list and gives you a position on that list.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

The whole system was created and continues to be embraced to avoid favoritism, or 'enchufismo'. The argument goes that government officials would give all the government jobs to their friends and family if left to their own devices. So, the solution is to have everyone sit exams and earn points with no subjective decision-making or evaluation involved in the process at all. 

It seems to me a very extreme system, without exactly stellar results. 

On the other hand, I can definitely imagine favoritism happening left and right if the government officials were allowed to choose workers on their own.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xgarb said:


> According to my Spanish girlfriend this is what it is. You study for an exam and get a job and once you have it, it's near impossible to be sacked.
> 
> I know of a teacher that doesn't teach a thing.. just talks about politics for the entire class, maybe watches youtube videos and sings sometimes. He gets 'moved' every year to another poor school.
> 
> In the UK he would have been sacked after a week.


No, he would not have been sacked 'after a week'. He would have been either suspended for ' professional misconduct' and his case referred to the General Teaching Council for judgment as to his fitness to continue in his profession or he would have been subjected to competency procedures.
Every worker deserves a fair hearing, however allegedly incompetent. As a ' shop steward' I have been involved in a few such cases. No- one was sacked in the arbitrary manner you state is the case.
Quite right too. There are proper and fair ways for dealing with unfit or incompetent workers.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

The system causes incalculable damage to the Spanish economy. The best and brightest of Spanish youth stay out of the labour market for years at the start of their careers because they need to study full time for the oposiciones. It leads to absurdities in education where teachers can't choose where they work and school heads can't choose whom to employ (because the job "belongs" to the teacher). I even know a man who left a full time teaching job in a private school where he had worked for several years because a temporary supply job came up in a state school. After the supply contract was over the teacher became unemployed, but was happy because he had earned some points! The private school considered it perfectly acceptable to lose a member of staff in the middle of the term with no notice. It's totally insane, yet everyone in Spain thinks it's the only possible way.
They could cut our most of the drawbacks by simply making the teacher training courses tougher, so that those doomed never to make the grade would drop out early and go off and do something else.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

...and while I'm all worked up about this I'd like to add another point.
The system acts as a de facto ban on foreigners (or even Spanish people from different regions of Spain!) gaining employment in the public sector. Even though European rules allow us all to live and work where we please, who is going to spend years waiting to apply for a job in Spain?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> The system causes incalculable damage to the Spanish economy. The best and brightest of Spanish youth stay out of the labour market for years at the start of their careers because they need to study full time for the oposiciones. It leads to absurdities in education where teachers can't choose where they work and school heads can't choose whom to employ (because the job "belongs" to the teacher). I even know a man who left a full time teaching job in a private school where he had worked for several years because a temporary supply job came up in a state school. After the supply contract was over the teacher became unemployed, but was happy because he had earned some points! The private school considered it perfectly acceptable to lose a member of staff in the middle of the term with no notice. It's totally insane, yet everyone in Spain thinks it's the only possible way.
> They could cut our most of the drawbacks by simply making the teacher training courses tougher, so that those doomed never to make the grade would drop out early and go off and do something else.


Re your last sentence: I wish the same would happen in the UK. I have mentored Newly Qualified Teachers from training colleges who lacked the basics of literacy and numeracy. I've also mentored graduates with PGCE qualifications with considerable academic knowledge but who were patently doomed to fail in the classroom when facing thirty disenchanted fourteen year olds on a wet Thursday afternoon.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turtles said:


> They could cut our most of the drawbacks by simply making the teacher training courses tougher, so that those doomed never to make the grade would drop out early and go off and do something else.


What teacher training courses?
For the upper levels the most shocking thing is that you don't have to do a training course. You have a degree in your subject and you do the opos exam. Part of the exam is to say what you'd do in a class, but it's just testing the academic knowledge once again as far as I know, not testing the best way to introduce the material, to revise, how to handle difficult class members, the group dynamics of the class etc.
You do have to do a degree in education for pre primary and primary.
Apparently for secondary and above knowing _how_ to teach isn't necessary...

And that for me is one of the fundamental problems of the education system here.
The other is the fact that schools don't ask for the members of staff they need and that teachers don't interview for posts.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

It was one of my "things that surprised me most" when I got to Spain how young, intelligent people proudly said they wanted to become funcionarios simply for the perceived job security. Of course I can understand those wanting to go into teaching or nursing because they want to do that job, but this often wasn't the case. Instead it was just "quiero ser un administrativo".

The other more general problem in Spain that this highlights is something I have heard called "certifiquitis". The culture of studying for endless qualifications, backed up by absolutely no practical experience. In fact I believe you can study to become a judge in Spain and, after many years of hard study, you can become one without ever having entered a court. But this extends to all sectors. I've seen job applications from people with postgraduate qualifications in IT, but they've never written a line of code! They memorise enough to get through the exam, and then consider the qualification enough to get them to a decent job. Many have huge gaps on their CVs because they consider their qualifications place them above doing more basic work.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

... that's really interesting because I had always perceived (or maybe 'thought') Spain's education system to be more hands-on than the UK's academic system.

For example, in Spain you take far more subjects (11-13 in Bachi) than in UK (generally only 4 subjects in 6th form).


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> ... that's really interesting because I had always perceived (or maybe 'thought') Spain's education system to be more hands-on than the UK's academic system.
> 
> For example, in Spain you take far more subjects (11-13 in Bachi) than in UK (generally only 4 subjects in 6th form).


I was mainly referring to the qualifications many young Spaniards chase after leaving school. E.g. endless courses called "Masters" because it sounds good, even though they can only require a few weeks study and have no official accreditation.

I can't really say from experience which education system is more hands-on, although I've been told that in Spain a lot of teaching is rote and by the book. It has been used to explain the apparent low standard of spoken English for example, given the amount of hours spent studying it, because students never used to practice speaking it, and often the teacher couldn't. It was all theory.


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## pictz (May 6, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What teacher training courses?
> For the upper levels the most shocking thing is that you don't have to do a training course. You have a degree in your subject and you do the opos exam. Part of the exam is to say what you'd do in a class, but it's just testing the academic knowledge once again as far as I know, not testing the best way to introduce the material, to revise, how to handle difficult class members, the group dynamics of the class etc.
> You do have to do a degree in education for pre primary and primary.
> Apparently for secondary and above knowing how to teach isn't necessary...
> ...


To teach secondary you need a degree in the subject and the "CAP" which is a 9 month course on pedagogy. Thus, they have some formation in pedagogy, but in my opinion too little.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

kalohi said:


> The whole system was created and continues to be embraced to avoid favoritism, or 'enchufismo'. The argument goes that government officials would give all the government jobs to their friends and family if left to their own devices. So, the solution is to have everyone sit exams and earn points with no subjective decision-making or evaluation involved in the process at all.
> 
> It seems to me a very extreme system, without exactly stellar results.
> 
> On the other hand, I can definitely imagine favoritism happening left and right if the government officials were allowed to choose workers on their own.


To be fair, they have got a point. Where nepotism can exist in Spain, it does. At least with the oposiciones it is a fair system.

Unfortunately it has lead to the situation that we all know and love of calling up the local authority, only to be told that the person you need to talk to has "gone downstairs for breakfast" at 10.30 am....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> To be fair, they have got a point. Where nepotism can exist in Spain, it does. At least with the oposiciones it is a fair system.
> 
> Unfortunately it has lead to the situation that we all know and love of calling up the local authority, only to be told that the person you need to talk to has "gone downstairs for breakfast" at 10.30 am....


That's their legal break though. No-one calls the Ayuntamiento between 10 and 10.45, they are all in the bar eating tostadas.

It would be much better if the opos included some kind of administrative/management training. Half the problem with inefficient town halls is the lack of on-the-job training. You can be a cleaner one day and a librarian the next.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pictz said:


> To teach secondary you need a degree in the subject and the "CAP" which is a 9 month course on pedagogy. Thus, they have some formation in pedagogy, but in my opinion too little.


Actually the CAP is no longer in existence. But you're right there is training, however, it's now a Masters under the new Bolognia education scheme, but I'll get back to you on why OH has never done CAP


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What teacher training courses?
> For the upper levels the most shocking thing is that you don't have to do a training course. You have a degree in your subject and you do the opos exam. Part of the exam is to say what you'd do in a class, but it's just testing the academic knowledge once again as far as I know, not testing the best way to introduce the material, to revise, how to handle difficult class members, the group dynamics of the class etc.
> You do have to do a degree in education for pre primary and primary.
> Apparently for secondary and above knowing _how_ to teach isn't necessary...
> ...


That's changing. One now has to do a one-year Master's degree in secondary ed. to _opositar _for ESO, FP, or EOI.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

pictz said:


> To teach secondary you need a degree in the subject and the "CAP" which is a 9 month course on pedagogy. Thus, they have some formation in pedagogy, but in my opinion too little.


The CAP no longer exists. That being said, the older teaching candidates have this training instead of the new Master's degree. 

In Cantabria, the Master's gives us one more point when making the interinos list.


EDIT: I see PW has already covered this. Sorry.


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## pictz (May 6, 2012)

elenetxu said:


> The CAP no longer exists. That being said, the older teaching candidates have this training instead of the new Master's degree.
> 
> In Cantabria, the Master's gives us one more point when making the interinos list.
> 
> EDIT: I see PW has already covered this. Sorry.


Now I'm feeling old, hahaha. The CAP was the requirement when I finished university, didn't know it had changed. Anyways, I hope with the master teachers are more prepared.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> That's their legal break though. No-one calls the Ayuntamiento between 10 and 10.45, they are all in the bar eating tostadas.
> 
> It would be much better if the opos included some kind of administrative/management training. Half the problem with inefficient town halls is the lack of on-the-job training. You can be a cleaner one day and a librarian the next.


Ours only open at 10 so they better not be having breakfast, that said the bank across the street which is open for less time than the town hall is always out when it is supposed to be open. Only opens for 3 half days a week as it is.

Training may help but surely the major issue is in the whole system itself and the ridiculous need for hand holding and money grabbing.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

pictz said:


> Now I'm feeling old, hahaha. The CAP was the requirement when I finished university, didn't know it had changed. Anyways, I hope with the master teachers are more prepared.


The Master's was kind of a joke, to be honest.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Extra factoid: Working as a cleaner in a state school gets you points towards one of those teaching jobs for life. Working as the head of a private school for twenty years earns you no points at all.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turtles said:


> Extra factoid: Working as a cleaner in a state school gets you points towards one of those teaching jobs for life. Working as the head of a private school for twenty years earns you no points at all.


Does it?
Do you know in what way?
You get points for the the type of studies you have, level of certain languages, courses semenarios etc that you've attended and maybe time that you've served with the local council. Is that what you mean?


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

That's what I've been told, by people who teach in both sectors. It reminds me of when I presented results of a private blood test I had paid for to the public GP. She said "We can't accept that. You'll have to have it done again in the state system."


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Turtles said:


> That's what I've been told, by people who teach in both sectors. It reminds me of when I presented results of a private blood test I had paid for to the public GP. She said "We can't accept that. You'll have to have it done again in the state system."


I recently asked my public GP to prescribe the same medication for me as my private cardiologist had done. He did so straight away and didn't even suggest doing any tests nor looking at the private blood test results I'd taken along. I'm now paying only 10% of the cost of the medication instead of 100%.


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## pictz (May 6, 2012)

Turtles said:


> That's what I've been told, by people who teach in both sectors. It reminds me of when I presented results of a private blood test I had paid for to the public GP. She said "We can't accept that. You'll have to have it done again in the state system."


Well people can say many things sometimes but definitely a cleaning job can't give you points for a teaching position. In this link you'll find how to get points for teaching oposiciones:

http://www.appf.es/cursos-homologados/oposiciones/baremo/oposiciones-andalucia.html

Basically only teaching experience can give you points and maybe this is why the head at the private school didn't get points either. If his role was only management/administration then he didn't have teaching experience. All heads at the public system teach too so in many cases this is a diference between private and public.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Apologies if I have been misinformed. I just conclude that the system keeps people in one specific part of the economy when they and society would be better served by more mobility. It's really quite disturbing to meet people who hate their jobs, but know they will never leave them.


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## pictz (May 6, 2012)

Turtles said:


> Apologies if I have been misinformed. I just conclude that the system keeps people in one specific part of the economy when they and society would be better served by more mobility. It's really quite disturbing to meet people who hate their jobs, but know they will never leave them.


I completely agree with you!, I find the oposiciones system a nosense. Many valid and qualified people are without jobs and then you have people that are completely incompetent and unmotivated taking positions "for life" (they can be suspended but only if they do something big). I guess is one of the many things that need to be changed in the country at some point but I guess will take time.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turtles said:


> Apologies if I have been misinformed. I just conclude that the system keeps people in one specific part of the economy when they and society would be better served by more mobility. It's really quite disturbing to meet people who hate their jobs, but know they will never leave them.


As is usual in Spain, each "merit" is carefully calculated and stipulated as the link which pictz gives shows. Look at number 1.2 or 1.4 for example where you are given .0833 or .0416 if you fulfil those particular specifications.
I think the comments about the cleaner being given points for becoming a teacher were throwaway comments, possibly due to the sheer frustration of trying to gain a permenent position.
I can fully understand why the prospect of working in a job for life is not what a lot of people want, but a teacher who is not on a permanent contract in Spain is liable, not only to be sent where the local authorities see fit as already stated, but also for that to be changed in OH's case every 2 years, as that's usually when the public exams take place, at least in his case (prior to the jammy contract he is now working).
Other snippets of the non permanent contact teacher's life.
When there is an exam you have to sit it otherwise you lose your position in The List. As others have said this, for most people involves full time studying for months and don't forget the lucky ones are also working. There's nothing wrong with a bit of studying and a great number of teachers would probably see it as a positive, but it's just cramming stuff into your head that in real life you'd look up in a text book or teacher's book. It certainly doesn't make you a better teacher.

As for the attractiveness of being a civil servant (funcionario) apart from the idea that you have full time and working life time employment, you also in many instances have a great time table, something like 8:00/ 8.30 - 15:00/ 15:30


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

PS Some people who may be employed by the state and therefore be funcionarios and who may have to take public exams known as oposiciones
Firefighters
librarians
social workers
teachers
caretaker of a public building (oposiciones?)
sports monitors in sports centres
people who work in tax offices
(cleaners of public buildings are (usually?) subcontracted by a cleaning firm)
Judges
people who work in town halls
forestry agents

and many more

It's not just people sat behind desks in town halls.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, call me old-fashioned but I don't have a problem with the idea of a job for life, at least in the public sector. It means you can at least plan your life, start a family, buy a house, plan your retirement or whatever without being in constant fear of redundancy, which is surely the sign of a civilised society? 

But there needs to be some sort of incentive to do the job well, and this is often sadly lacking in this country. I know funcionarios who get an enormous amount of job satisfaction due to the feedback they get from their "clients" and their managers. Others just feel their labours go unnoticed so they lack any motivation to improve. Carrots are often more effective than sticks.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Turtles said:


> That's what I've been told, by people who teach in both sectors. It reminds me of when I presented results of a private blood test I had paid for to the public GP. She said "We can't accept that. You'll have to have it done again in the state system."


It might vary between regions as each autonoma tends to run their own health service to a large extent, but in Madrid I have a private check-up each year as part of my private medical cover, and those results have been readily accepted by the public health service. I guess the private medical centre that carries out the tests has to be accredited in some way, but my GP was quite willing to save time and resources and use those results.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, call me old-fashioned but I don't have a problem with the idea of a job for life, at least in the public sector. It means you can at least plan your life, start a family, buy a house, plan your retirement or whatever without being in constant fear of redundancy, which is surely the sign of a civilised society?
> 
> But there needs to be some sort of incentive to do the job well, and this is often sadly lacking in this country. I know funcionarios who get an enormous amount of job satisfaction due to the feedback they get from their "clients" and their managers. Others just feel their labours go unnoticed so they lack any motivation to improve. Carrots are often more effective than sticks.


You are old fashioned 

Of course everyone would love to have a job for life, you don't need to point out the benefits. But given there are very good reasons why most people can't have jobs for life, it is incredibly selfish that some people feel they have more right to them than others. Even more so if their jobs are funded by people with insecure jobs in the private sector through something as violent as taxation.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Chopera said:


> It might vary between regions as each autonoma tends to run their own health service to a large extent, but in Madrid I have a private check-up each year as part of my private medical cover, and those results have been readily accepted by the public health service. I guess the private medical centre that carries out the tests has to be accredited in some way, but my GP was quite willing to save time and resources and use those results.


It might also just depend on the doctor. My GP at the local public health center won't even glance at any test results that I bring him from my private doctors, and he refuses to write prescriptions for medications prescribed by private doctors. (He even has a large sign hanging on his door stating just that.) However, I have a neighbor who sees a different GP at the same local public health center, and that doctor is happy to look at test results brought in from elsewhere and also to write social security prescriptions for medications prescribed by private doctors. 

My neighbor's GP says that anyone who sees a private doctor is saving the public health system money, and she's happy to support that. 

I'd like to hear what the reasoning is behind my own GP's decision not to accept anything from the private health system sector.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> You are old fashioned
> 
> Of course everyone would love to have a job for life, you don't need to point out the benefits. But given there are very good reasons why most people can't have jobs for life, it is incredibly selfish that some people feel they have more right to them than others. Even more so if their jobs are funded by people with insecure jobs in the private sector through something as violent as taxation.


People working in the public sector pay taxes too, you know. Probably more of it in Spain, given all the tales forum members tell of private employers paying the lion's share of salaries in cash under the table in order to avoid paying SS contributions, meaning the employees won't be declaring that cash as income or paying tax on it either.

There is another way of looking at the situation, why should the fact that people working in the private sector are treated like s··t by their employers mean that everybody has to be? Do we really want a race to the bottom?


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

If you really want society to ossify you could guarantee everyone's job.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> People working in the public sector pay taxes too, you know. Probably more of it in Spain, given all the tales forum members tell of private employers paying the lion's share of salaries in cash under the table in order to avoid paying SS contributions, meaning the employees won't be declaring that cash as income or paying tax on it either.


Yes I was aware that the public sector pay taxes. It's just that the taxes they pay go to fund the same sector they work for, so there is no net contribution. Of course in reality the distinction between public and private sector is pretty blurred anyway since many private companies receive public sector contracts, etc. But overall the public sector is funded by the private sector, even if a lot of the money gets recycled back into the private sector.



Lynn R said:


> There is another way of looking at the situation, why should the fact that people working in the private sector are treated like s··t by their employers mean that everybody has to be? Do we really want a race to the bottom?


There's a difference between giving employees better working conditions, which should be encouraged regardless of the sector they work for, and giving them a job for life.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> Yes I was aware that the public sector pay taxes. It's just that the taxes they pay go to fund the same sector they work for, so there is no net contribution. Of course in reality the distinction between public and private sector is pretty blurred anyway since many private companies receive public sector contracts, etc. But overall the public sector is funded by the private sector, even if a lot of the money gets recycled back into the private sector.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a difference between giving employees better working conditions, which should be encouraged regardless of the sector they work for, and giving them a job for life.


But as has been demonstrated earlier in the thread, they don't actually HAVE a guaranteed job for life. They can be made redundant (after going through the proper procedures), they can be dismissed for serious misconduct.

The many examples given of people just coasting through their working life and not doing their jobs satisfactorily are down to poor management. I worked as a manager in the public sector in the UK and often heard people complaining of the same "jobs for life, they can get away with murder" culture there. It did not prevent me from instigating disciplinary action against employees where it was warranted, and I never lost a case, because I made sure I followed the procedures to the letter, gathered evidence and presented a watertight case. It doesn't make you popular but that's not what you're there for.

And poor management is not only evident in the public sector. All those shop workers people complain of who are too busy talking on their phones or chatting to co-workers to attend to customers? The poor customer service people complain of from the likes of Vodafone (I've experienced it myself)? Or more seriously, the bosses at VW who claim the current disaster was down to a couple of maverick software designers or the investment banks who didn't know what their rogue traders were up to? Isn't that what those managers (who are far more highly paid than anybody in the public sector) are supposed to be responsible for?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> But as has been demonstrated earlier in the thread, they don't actually HAVE a guaranteed job for life. They can be made redundant (after going through the proper procedures), they can be dismissed for serious misconduct.
> 
> The many examples given of people just coasting through their working life and not doing their jobs satisfactorily are down to poor management. I worked as a manager in the public sector in the UK and often heard people complaining of the same "jobs for life, they can get away with murder" culture there. It did not prevent me from instigating disciplinary action against employees where it was warranted, and I never lost a case, because I made sure I followed the procedures to the letter, gathered evidence and presented a watertight case. It doesn't make you popular but that's not what you're there for.
> 
> And poor management is not only evident in the public sector. All those shop workers people complain of who are too busy talking on their phones or chatting to co-workers to attend to customers? The poor customer service people complain of from the likes of Vodafone (I've experienced it myself)? Or more seriously, the bosses at VW who claim the current disaster was down to a couple of maverick software designers or the investment banks who didn't know what their rogue traders were up to? Isn't that what those managers (who are far more highly paid than anybody in the public sector) are supposed to be responsible for?


I was replying to Alcalaina's comment that:



> Well, call me old-fashioned but I don't have a problem with the idea of a job for life, at least in the public sector.


What do you think?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I was replying to Alcalaina's comment that:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think?


If there were such a thing as a job for life with never the prospect of redundancy, no possibility of dismissal for whatever reason and no possibility of swingeing cuts in hours and salaries (as have been experienced by many public servants in Spain during the last few years) then it would not be a good thing. However, apart from the dictators of certain African countries they don't exist. 

I just wish people would stop talking as though things really are like that in the public sector. Workers should support each other in the fight to preserve decent and reasonable conditions of employment, and pay, instead of falling for the divide and conquer tactics of those who would rather working people were at each other's throats because if one has more than another, "it's not fair and if I don't have that then nobody else should have it" rather than organising themselves to fight to better their own lot.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It doesn't appear exactly easy to dismiss an employee in the private sector in Spain, either (provided they have an indefinido contract, that is). Did you see the press reports this week that the dismissal of a Mercadona employee for giving away fish that was to be thrown in the bin has been ruled illegal?



Improcedente el despido de una empleada de Mercadona por regalar una pescadilla. Noticias de Empresas

I am glad it was overturned.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Instead of moaning about workers whose conditions of employment they think are too good, I wish people would get more angry about abuses like this.


Las ofertas de empleo más indignantes | Economía | EL MUNDO


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It doesn't appear exactly easy to dismiss an employee in the private sector in Spain, either (provided they have an indefinido contract, that is). Did you see the press reports this week that the dismissal of a Mercadona employee for giving away fish that was to be thrown in the bin has been ruled illegal?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I did!

One of my clients who is the co owner of a company employing some 60 people was telling me he had to fire a worker who had been with the company for 7 years. They had received complaints about him from clients, and even the employee himself recognised that he wasn't working to the same standard as 5 years ago. He's supposed to receive 17,000€ when he leaves. This will be negotiated down because these cases always have to go to arbitration, but it will be in the region of 15,000€. That seems awfully expensive for the company to me.

What would happen in the UK?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I did!
> 
> One of my clients who is the co owner of a company employing some 60 people was telling me he had to fire a worker who had been with the company for 7 years. They had received complaints about him from clients, and even the employee himself recognised that he wasn't working to the same standard as 5 years ago. He's supposed to receive 17,000€ when he leaves. This will be negotiated down because these cases always have to go to arbitration, but it will be in the region of 15,000€. That seems awfully expensive for the company to me.
> 
> What would happen in the UK?


If someone was dismissed for poor performance, and the dismissal was not challenged or was found to be fair by an Employment Tribunal, then the employee would not be entitled to any financial compensation - unless something to the contrary was written into their contract of employment (which is why we read about cases where highly paid executives are got rid of due to poor performance but receive payoffs running into millions).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Ours only open at 10 so they better not be having breakfast, that said the bank across the street which is open for less time than the town hall is always out when it is supposed to be open. Only opens for 3 half days a week as it is.
> 
> Training may help but surely the major issue is in the whole system itself and the ridiculous need for hand holding and money grabbing.


The ayuntamiento opens at 10:00?
Do you live in a small place in the country?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> If someone was dismissed for poor performance, and the dismissal was not challenged or was found to be fair by an Employment Tribunal, then the employee would not be entitled to any financial compensation - unless something to the contrary was written into their contract of employment (which is why we read about cases where highly paid executives are got rid of due to poor performance but receive payoffs running into millions).


OK, Thanks, that's what I thought.
I'll ask this person again how much they have ended up agreeing on.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, Thanks, that's what I thought.
> I'll ask this person again how much they have ended up agreeing on.


I should say that in the UK they would be entitled to notice pay (however many weeks or months stipulated in their employment contract) plus payment for outstanding holidays.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> Instead of moaning about workers whose conditions of employment they think are too good, I wish people would get more angry about abuses like this.
> 
> 
> Las ofertas de empleo más indignantes | Economía | EL MUNDO


I think it's very difficult to police ads once they have been published. I would have thought that one way to try to eliminate them would be to make the people who publish them partly responsible (ie fine them) and then even if the employer wants to publish a sexist/ racist ad s/he can't.
Or is it the case that rules and regulations are in place and not put into force? In Spain I mean


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

It's by no means a simple or quick process to dismiss someone on the grounds of capability in the UK, though. A series of warnings must be given (oral, written, possibly a second written warning, culminating in a final written warning), with evidence that the employee has been made aware of what the problems are and been given the opportunity to improve, that the possibility of any external factors such as illness (physical or mental) or domestic problems could be affecting their work has been investigated, that they have been afforded extra training and support, before the decision to dismiss can be reached. It can take years, and if any stage is omitted then the company leaves itself open to having the dismissal declared unfair by the Employment Tribunal.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It's by no means a simple or quick process to dismiss someone on the grounds of capability in the UK, though. A series of warnings must be given (oral, written, possibly a second written warning, culminating in a final written warning), with evidence that the employee has been made aware of what the problems are and been given the opportunity to improve, that the possibility of any external factors such as illness (physical or mental) or domestic problems could be affecting their work has been investigated, that they have been afforded extra training and support, before the decision to dismiss can be reached. It can take years, and if any stage is omitted then the company leaves itself open to having the dismissal declared unfair by the Employment Tribunal.


I don't know all the stages here, but you do have to have written warnings and the worker does have to be made aware of the problems and given the opportunity to improve.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think it's very difficult to police ads once they have been published. I would have thought that one way to try to eliminate them would be to make the people who publish them partly responsible (ie fine them) and then even if the employer wants to publish a sexist/ racist ad s/he can't.
> Or is it the case that rules and regulations are in place and not put into force? In Spain I mean


It was the one where they were advertising for an assistant in a clothes shop to work from Monday to Saturday but without pay that made me really angry. What the hell is that about?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know all the stages here, but you do have to have written warnings and the worker does have to be made aware of the problems and given the opportunity to improve.


The other problem in the UK is that once capability proceedings have been started the worker often goes off sick with stress, claiming that the process is making them ill. It is then very difficult, well nigh impossible, to continue without being accused of harrassing them, so the process gets put on hold until they have returned to work, which could take months.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> It was the one where they were advertising for an assistant in a clothes shop to work from Monday to Saturday but without pay that made me really angry. What the hell is that about?


Well exactly, and that's one that I think should just never have got to the publishing stage.
I think the person who placed the ad "misunderstands" the concept of practicas and thought they could try in on in that "job" offer.


Look at this one from the Facebook page. And the sad thing is that I don't think this is unusual, as people on the forum frequently tell people who say "I'm willing to do anything as long as I can come to Spain"


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well exactly, and that's one that I think should just never have got to the publishing stage.
> I think the person who placed the ad "misunderstands" the concept of practicas and thought they could try in on in that "job" offer.
> 
> 
> Look at this one from the Facebook page. And the sad thing is that I don't think this is unusual, as people on the forum frequently tell people who say "I'm willing to do anything as long as I can come to Spain"


It really is appalling, just taking advantage of people's desperation.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The ayuntamiento opens at 10:00?
> Do you live in a small place in the country?



10-2pm weekdays only.
I think it used to be a small village, according to wiki in 1981 there were just over 600 residents and looking at the padron data from 2013 there are now 3,500ish registered.
Of course I get the feeling a lot aren't registered either.

I wouldn't call it the campo as such, more of a urban sprawel in a semi rural place if that makes sense. It's 5 minutes to the beach, 10 to Sant Joan and under 30 minutes to Alicante city.

I don't suppose it's all that big really.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> If there were such a thing as a job for life with never the prospect of redundancy, no possibility of dismissal for whatever reason and no possibility of swingeing cuts in hours and salaries (as have been experienced by many public servants in Spain during the last few years) then it would not be a good thing. However, apart from the dictators of certain African countries they don't exist.
> 
> I just wish people would stop talking as though things really are like that in the public sector. Workers should support each other in the fight to preserve decent and reasonable conditions of employment, and pay, instead of falling for the divide and conquer tactics of those who would rather working people were at each other's throats because if one has more than another, "it's not fair and if I don't have that then nobody else should have it" rather than organising themselves to fight to better their own lot.


I think we're basically agreed that a job for life is, out of principle, is a bad thing then.

However there is more than one way to get better employment rights, and one very effective way is through not penalising people for getting a better job elsewhere. Obviously this doesn't apply to many types of job, but the relatively high salaries and job security enjoyed by many people in the IT sector in the UK are down to companies realising the value in those employees, and how much it costs to lose them. Very few belong to a union either. Simply by making sure their skills are in demand, and therefore of value to the company (and in turn the wider economy) is often enough to ensure they are treated relatively well.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I am aware of issues and difficulties surrounding dismissal of poorly performing employees. However, another aspect of "jobs for life" is the excessive protection given to those whose jobs are made increasingly unnecessary by new technologies and general changes in the way we live. I am thinking of chemists, notaries, taxi drivers, postmen, paper pushers in the many Trafico offices, not to mention our friends in the ayuntamientos. 
Those people are not guilty of anything, but the law forces us to maintain their outmoded business models.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> It doesn't appear exactly easy to dismiss an employee in the private sector in Spain, either (provided they have an indefinido contract, that is). Did you see the press reports this week that the dismissal of a Mercadona employee for giving away fish that was to be thrown in the bin has been ruled illegal?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I have previously written on here about the problems with indefinido contracts in the private sector. The banks especially have very strong agreements with the unions (convenios) which makes it very expensive to make bank employees redundant. Often the cost of this is eventually passed on to the tax payer if a failing bank can't afford to downsize and has to be bailed out.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I think we're basically agreed that a job for life is, out of principle, is a bad thing then.
> 
> However there is more than one way to get better employment rights, and one very effective way is through not penalising people for getting a better job elsewhere. Obviously this doesn't apply to many types of job


Well that's the problem, isn't it. The world is made up of many more types of worker than the IT sector, and if they're in such demand those workers can look after themselves. However, should that mean that workers who don't possess those skills but still do an honest day's work in a useful occupation should be treated like that employer in Pesky Wesky's post about the vacancy in a restaurant wants to treat his workers? I for one think not.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Turtles said:


> I am aware of issues and difficulties surrounding dismissal of poorly performing employees. However, another aspect of "jobs for life" is the excessive protection given to those whose jobs are made increasingly unnecessary by new technologies and general changes in the way we live. I am thinking of chemists, notaries, taxi drivers, postmen, paper pushers in the many Trafico offices, not to mention our friends in the ayuntamientos.
> Those people are not guilty of anything, but the law forces us to maintain their outmoded business models.


So in a civilised society, if we didn't do that to a certain extent, what would we do about all those people whose jobs disappear? They can't all find jobs serving coffee to or cleaning the floors of those still left in work.

Do we
a) pay them not to work so those still working feel resentful about funding that
b) let them starve
c) let them carry on doing their jobs.

My postlady still does a useful job. She's delivered packets and mail to my house 3 days this week already. I get good and efficient service from the staff at my Ayuntamiento whenever I need to go there. Why would taxi drivers not be needed any more? I don't use them often but I'm glad they're there when I need one. What do you propose we replace chemists with?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I remember years ago, back in the '70s when things like word processing and later PCs were being introduced into offices and more automated processes in factories, we were assured that in the future, thanks to these wonderful innovations, we would all be able to work less hours and have much more leisure time. It hasn't worked out like that, though, has it? The people with the high skill jobs are working all the hours God sends and expected to answer their emails and mobile phones 24/7, and the ones with low level skills are becoming ever more expected to live on poverty wages with no security of employment at all, or even being able to work a set number of hours per week so they have an income they can rely on. It might be effficient, in terms of making more money for the 1%, but it certainly isn't making for a healthy and cohesive society.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

In Spain we are not allowed to buy aspirin from a supermarket. Uber is illegal. Blablacar (Google it) may well be made illegal in a few days. Certain transactions require the payment of non-negotiable fees to notaries. The public sector admin people require our physical presence in their many offices, most of which could be replaced with a decent website.
Somehow society managed to redeploy most of the blacksmiths, travel agents and video shop employees. Is something now different?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Imagine the man hours and money saved if a Town Hall could accept a payment in house or online.
Nobody would have to lose their job and I guess even the banks may thank you.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turtles said:


> In Spain we are not allowed to buy aspirin from a supermarket.


This came up in the news yesterday
¿Comprar pastillas en el 'súper'? | Salud | EL MUNDO



> La Comisión Nacional de Mercados de la Competencia (CNMC) ha vuelto a despertar el fantasma de la liberalización de las farmacias en España con un informe en el que propone, entre otras cosas, que se puedan vender ciertos fármacos en otros establecimientos o que se eliminen las actuales restricciones para poner una farmacia, incluso aunque el propietario no sea un farmacéutico.


It's nowhere near coming into reality though


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I like the fact that the supermarkets haven't totally taken over retail in Spain and that individual shops, and farmacias, still survive.

My home town in the UK is a good example of what can happen when a major supermarket moves into a town, with it's own butchery and fishmonger counters, and an instore pharmacy. Some years ago Morrisons set up on a town centre site, followed by Aldi. There is now not one independent butcher, fishmonger, greengrocer or general grocery left in the town, and only a couple of bakeries. What was once a thriving high street is now made up of takeaways, betting shops , beauty salons and charity shops. A couple of months ago, Morrisons announced that this store was to be one of 11 they are closing due to their financial woes, and I cannot imagine who will take on that site. Houses were demolished for it to be built on, now it will probably be redeveloped for housing again, most likely flats. 

I so much prefer my Spanish town centre.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Imagine the man hours and money saved if a Town Hall could accept a payment in house or online.
> Nobody would have to lose their job and I guess even the banks may thank you.


Yes, I've said before that this is one of my bugbears. It would make sense all round.

I have to say, though, that my Ayuntamiento has made real advances in the use of technology since we arrived here, and streamlining services. We have a great system for reporting faults online, for example, and they do get dealt with promptly. I also really like the computerised prescription process and the online appointments service in the Health Service. Pesky Wesky posted an item recently about the fact that a new service allowing births and deaths to be registered in hospitals is being introduced. The digital signature system, allowing lots of things to be done online, also very good.

I think we have to give credit where it is due and it's unfair to talk as though Spain is universally stuck in the Dark Ages.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Turtles said:


> Somehow society managed to redeploy most of the blacksmiths, travel agents and video shop employees. Is something now different?


I hadn't noticed the travel agents going anywhere. There are at least half a dozen travel agent's shops in the centre of my town, and the same number again 5km away in Torre del Mar.

There are, however, far too many former construction workers hanging about the place for whom society has not yet got around to finding new and rewarding occupations.

I wonder how the 5k+ steelworkers in the UK whose jobs are about to disappear and all those being laid off in the oil and gas industry are going to fare. They may manage to secure other types of jobs, I hope so, but they are overwhelmingly likely to be lower paid and more precarious. The yawning chasm of the great divide will get a bit wider still.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Well that's the problem, isn't it. The world is made up of many more types of worker than the IT sector, and if they're in such demand those workers can look after themselves. However, should that mean that workers who don't possess those skills but still do an honest day's work in a useful occupation should be treated like that employer in Pesky Wesky's post about the vacancy in a restaurant wants to treat his workers? I for one think not.


I agree, but to play devil's advocate for a second, would you rather the restaurant didn't offer the job? Maybe that is literally all they can afford to pay without going bust? And nobody is forcing anybody to do that job. 

The more fundamental problem, especially near certain coastal areas is that the economy is not diverse. People either worked in tourist related industries or building, and one of those sectors has collapsed. On top of that an immigrant might find that work acceptable, since it might still allow them to save money and send it home. And then all us expats can brag about how cheap it is to eat out in Spain. Maybe a better solution would be to force restaurants to declare the working conditions so customers can choose where to dine accordingly? I'd certainly pay more to go to a restaurant that treats its staff well.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I agree, but to play devil's advocate for a second, would you rather the restaurant didn't offer the job? Maybe that is literally all they can afford to pay without going bust? And nobody is forcing anybody to do that job.
> 
> The more fundamental problem, especially near certain coastal areas is that the economy is not diverse. People either worked in tourist related industries or building, and one of those sectors has collapsed. On top of that an immigrant might find that work acceptable, since it might still allow them to save money and send it home. And then all us expats can brag about how cheap it is to eat out in Spain. Maybe a better solution would be to force restaurants to declare the working conditions so customers can choose where to dine accordingly? I'd certainly pay more to go to a restaurant that treats its staff well.


Good idea, so would I. Perhaps it should be coupled with an initiative like the one we see reported in the UK press today where employers who were found not to be paying the minimum wage have been fined and their details published to name and shame them. Amongst them are the high street chains Monsoon and Accessorize.

And I would rather the restaurant advertised the job for as many hours as they can afford to pay the minimum wage for, not expect someone to work weekends without pay and other abusive practices like deducting tips from wages.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Our town hall used to do it all "in.house" pay bills etc. THey gradually phased it out & now anything requiring paying you go to the bank & then return & have whatever stamped.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

European job market is rigged against younger workers, says Draghi

European job market is rigged against younger workers, says Draghi | World news | The Guardian



> “In many countries the labour market is set up to protect older ‘insiders’ – people with permanent, high-paid contracts and shielded by strong labour laws.”
> 
> “The side-effect is that young people are stuck with lower-paid, temporary contracts and get fired first in crisis times. That also means that employers are reluctant to invest in young people, so the incomes of this generation stay lower over their lifetime.”


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pictz said:


> To teach secondary you need a degree in the subject and the "CAP" which is a 9 month course on pedagogy. Thus, they have some formation in pedagogy, but in my opinion too little.


 CAP hasn't existed since 2009





> El C.A.P. (Certificado de Aptitud Pedagógica) que se creó por una Orden de 14 de julio de 1971 y que es necesario para el acceso a los cuerpos de profesores de Enseñanza Secundaria y similares, llega a su fin en el presente curso escolar 2008/09 según regula el RD 1834/2008 de 8 de noviembre. A partir del 1 de octubre de 2009, las Universidades deberán ofertar obligatoriamente los Máster, que serán los únicos títulos válidos para presentarse a las oposiciones y el requisito para poder ejercer la profesión de profesor de Enseñanza Secundaria Obligatoria, Bachillerato, Formación Profesional y Enseñanzas de Idiomas.


http://www.academiamagister.com/convocatorias/cap.pdf


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