# Racism in recruitment?



## desiboy89 (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm an Indian citizen living and working in Dubai,

I saw a post on Linkedin for an 'English copywriter', where one of the requirements was 'must be a native English speaker'. All my education has been in English and since it is the primary language I use in both my personal as well as professional life, I went ahead and applied, along with a few links to some of my published work(I have worked as a content writer previously),

Got a reply a few minutes ago saying that 'As per the post, I need a native English speaker and so I cannot consider you for this position'.

I mean, wow, are you for real??? Why not just post 'we need a white person' on the job post then? Ridiculous.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Not all white people are English native speakers. 

Not all people who claim they can speak English, can speak English like a native. 

E.g South Africans and Americans 

Plenty of non-native English speakers in the region judging by those who write the laughable adverts in boards and on the TV, which are in Enhlush but not as an English native would recognise.


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

HAHA - Yes! I'm sure if you search on this forum, you'll find other examples of outright silly job postings with very specific requirements on nationality, race, height, weight ..... 

It's disgusting but seems to exist in this part of the world.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

Unfortunately thats how it works in Dubai - blatantly. Its much more subtle in other parts of the world 
Just few things for you to consider:
1. While you may have fit the profile perfectly, there might be 20 other Indians who would have bad/ different English who might apply for the job. Much more difficult for the recruiter to sift through the applications

2. While you may fit culturally with what the recruiter is looking for, probably a lot of Indians (or you can insert another nationality) will not be able to adjust to a "multicultural" office atmosphere.

3. You will see a lot of ads (probably not in your line of work) asking for only Indians (or other nationalities) - so it works both ways (and NO, two wrongs do not make a right)

It is wrong in many ways - but can't really do anything but move on.


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## desiboy89 (Nov 18, 2013)

twowheelsgood said:


> Not all white people are English native speakers.
> 
> Not all people who claim they can speak English, can speak English like a native.
> 
> ...


I'm just disappointed that I'm not being given a fair shot at a job due to my nationality. That's all


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

It sucks, but are your CV and examples completely water tight? 

I know people that when recruiting for copywriting and PR, a single misplaced apostrophe will see your application rejected.


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## desiboy89 (Nov 18, 2013)

Mr Rossi said:


> It sucks, but are your CV and examples completely water tight?
> 
> I know people that when recruiting for copywriting and PR, a single misplaced apostrophe will see your application rejected.


100% water tight. 

I am in no way saying that I am the best person for the job, and that I'm better than everyone else. Just annoyed at the fact that I wasn't even given a chance to show that I speak and write as well as a 'native English speaker'.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

desiboy89 said:


> I'm just disappointed that I'm not being given a fair shot at a job due to my nationality. That's all


Is this a recruitment agency or a jobsworth, junior HR person? If it's the former, there's little you can do, it's up to them who they represent. 

If it's a junior who is will not veer from their mental path, use LinkedIn to do a bit of detective work and try to get examples of copy in front of the decision maker.


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## desiboy89 (Nov 18, 2013)

Mr Rossi said:


> Is this a recruitment agency or a jobsworth, junior HR person? If it's the former, there's little you can do, it's up to them who they represent.
> 
> If it's a junior who is will not veer from their mental path, use LinkedIn to do a bit of detective work and try to get examples of copy in front of the decision maker.


It's a recruitment agency- Jivaro Search


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## Skip_ZA (Jan 28, 2015)

twowheelsgood said:


> Not all white people are English native speakers.
> 
> Not all people who claim they can speak English, can speak English like a native.
> 
> ...


Whaaaaaaat? Ek praat lekker Engles man!! (that's Afrikaans btw)

A "native speaker of English" refers to someone who has learned and used English from early childhood. It does not necessarily mean that it is the speaker's only language, but it means it is and has been the primary means of concept formation and communication.

I dont see this as racist, nor even a unfair due to nationality. They are looking for someone who can speak English fluently and understand all aspects of English. 

Racist would be stating that if you are black brown of white, you shouldnt apply on that basis.

Here in South Africa alot of people say that they can speak and write English, however if you actually speak to them their English is more like a jumble and cross with other languages and writing is really poor.

this is just my 2c from the Dark Continent. :eyebrows:


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## desiboy89 (Nov 18, 2013)

Skip_ZA said:


> Whaaaaaaat? Ek praat lekker Engles man!! (that's Afrikaans btw)
> 
> A "native speaker of English" refers to someone who has learned and used English from early childhood. It does not necessarily mean that it is the speaker's only language, but it means it is and has been the primary means of concept formation and communication.
> 
> ...


Well then, why wouldn't they even consider my application? Surely a phone call would be enough to judge whether I can at least speak fluent English?

I have been speaking English since pre-school and ALL my education has been in English. I speak in English to my family and friends back in India, and here in Dubai as well. I have also sent her links to my published articles and recommendations from my editors at my previous organisations.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
I am not in any way defending the position of the recruiter - I think they should maybe give you a chance.
But - there are still subtle differences between the English spoken and written by people who grew up and were educated in the UK and English speakers from India, Australia, South Africa and of course USA (where the differences are much more obvious).
A good example are the old English words used here by people who were brought up and educated in India (my wife, included) - thrice, avail, revert etc.
They simply say and write things in a different way to how I would.
This has an impact if the target audience are from a particular country (or even area of a country - as regional variations exist).
Cheers
Steve


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## Froglet (May 7, 2014)

Give them a call, talk with the recruiter, ask questions about the vacancy and your intention to apply, get his/her name and apply afterwards with a nice email addressed to that person. It puts you in a stronger position as they have already spoken with you and know that you sound like a native...


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## Simey (Dec 4, 2012)

Stevesolar said:


> .
> A good example are the old English words used here by people who were brought up and educated in India (my wife, included) - thrice, avail, revert etc.
> They simply say and write things in a different way to how I would.


LOL, I am traveling in the UK for a few days and even though I did live here before I'm constantly amused by the stilted way train announcements are given, such as:

"Please alight here for [XYZ]". _Alight?_ Who says that?

"The train is formed of four carriages." OK, "formed of" is technically accurate, but more colloquially I think most people would say "the train _has_ four carriages (or cars)". 

I don't remember this kind of false pomposity in the past. 

Anyway, I don't think limiting a job to native speakers is so much racist as lazy and inaccurate. It would be better to say "must be able to speak English fluently and clearly." That might weed out many native English speakers as well of course. Including probably some from England.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

desiboy89 said:


> I have been speaking English since pre-school and ALL my education has been in English. I speak in English to my family and friends back in India, and here in Dubai as well. I have also sent her links to my published articles and recommendations from my editors at my previous organisations.


Because you haven't lived with English people, speaking English all the time.

Even with our American friends who can only speak English, we will often have to stop and explain references which they find inexplicable but to which any English speaking native would understand immediately. Simple phrases like, boot, trunk, crisps, chips, *****, Durex, pants mean something to a native English speaker which someone brought up in another English speaking country might misunderstand.

We didn't think it would be the Spanish Inquisition from you.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Is it a job that requires you to talk to people? You may be able to speak and write grammatically correct English, better than a lot of British people. But (and I'm assuming here) you probably don't have a British accent with all the regional dialect and diction that you just can't learn. 

As a new expat I'm getting a lot of the usual phonecalls for 'fantastic investment opportunities' and if you get a Phillipino/ Indian accent on the phone you instantly know they are trying to sell something you don't want and I put the phone down straight away. They have probably used English all their lives and have qualifications coming out of their ears too but the accent and the way they talk is an instant give-away.

A few of these companies are getting clever and employing people with British, regional accents, they start off with a jovial patter, get you talking ... then you find out what it is they are selling and even though I never buy or give information to cold callers, at least they keep you on the line for a bit longer while they try and build up a rapport with you.


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

Bottomline, "Native English Speaker" in any job ad out here means people from the UK, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and the US.

I am not considered a Native English Speaker but my sister who now holds an Australian passport is considered a Native English Speaker even though we both grew up in India and I speak WAY better English than her (luckily she's not on this forum  )

To the OP, don't bother fighting the system. Any company that hires you based on your race is already discriminating against you and you really do not want to be a part of that organization. Focus on the multinationals who have strict policies against such discrimination. Good Luck!


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

They mean someone who won't inadvertently send out a clear message they're not a native speaker.

Desiboy, I didn't pick it up from you, so I can understand why you felt hard done by.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> They mean someone who won't inadvertently send out a clear message they're not a native speaker.
> 
> Desiboy, I didn't pick it up from you, so I can understand why you felt hard done by.


'Proper' written English is the easy part to learn, speaking in conversation without giving away your 1st language isn't English is much, much harder. Even those who were born and lived all their lives in the UK still keep their family accent.

Accents are much harder to disguise and even harder to learn, even though I haven't lived in the westcountry for 15 years+, I still sound like Adge Cutler from the Wurzels.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Having read what I presume is the JD, it would require proficiency in English or journalism to degree level. From what the OP has mentioned about his experience and the diction in his previous posts, it's looking like he's lacking those necessary skills.

Fault certainly on the recruiter for not mentioning qualifications or the fact he's not experienced enough. I guess when you face the deluge of random applicants any job opening here brings, "native speakers only" is convenient shorthand.

Keep on going Desiboy. Jobs and women, two things in life that will always guarantee more knock backs than successes.


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## Skip_ZA (Jan 28, 2015)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> I am not in any way defending the position of the recruiter - I think they should maybe give you a chance.
> But - there are still subtle differences between the English spoken and written by people who grew up and were educated in the UK and English speakers from India, Australia, South Africa and of course USA (where the differences are much more obvious).
> A good example are the old English words used here by people who were brought up and educated in India (my wife, included) - thrice, avail, revert etc.
> ...


Hey when my wife watches that Geordie Shore and other Reality Tv shows in UK, I cant understand half the words they are saying because it isn't English anymore.. 

It has morphed into some weird new language only people there can understand.  :eyebrows:

I think that most university educated South Africans have a great vocabulary of the English language. :boxing: *lol* 

but agree there are obvious differences. I just would like to point out that people from UK aren't that great at English either.  even though its their only language. eep:


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Seth Efricans having the greatest vocabulary? Only because of the amount of Dutch words mixed in 

I know what you mean about Jordie shore, but then that's what makes British people sound British, it's the imperfections, and the balance of how many you use in what situation and in front of what audience. I could barely understand Rab C Nesbitt but my Scottish neighbour understood him perfectly. And the unintelligible old farmer in Hot Fuzz? I can understand him perfectly.


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## Skip_ZA (Jan 28, 2015)

Dibblington said:


> Seth Efricans having the greatest vocabulary? Only because of the amount of Dutch words mixed in
> 
> I know what you mean about Jordie shore, but then that's what makes British people sound British, it's the imperfections, and the balance of how many you use in what situation and in front of what audience. I could barely understand Rab C Nesbitt but my Scottish neighbour understood him perfectly. And the unintelligible old farmer in Hot Fuzz? I can understand him perfectly.


Not the best vocabulary, but atleast its understandable. (I hope, lol) we do struggle with some pronunciations. 

Rab C Nesbitt sounds like a very drunk individual... but i can make out most of what he is saying.


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## omar92 (Oct 8, 2013)

If I was in the OP's place, I wouldn't want to work in a place where they judge whether someone's a 'native' speaker or not solely on nationality without speaking to them. 
I grew up in the Gulf and was surrounded by people who attended British or American school all their lives. At my school in particular, not only did we study the National Curriculum of England and Wales and A levels, but our high GCSE/A level results placed us in the top 5% of schools in the UK. Many of the kids at these schools have perfect American accents (along with mannerisms+knowledge of American/Western culture) you'd think they'd stepped out of a Hollywood teenage movie. Many of these kids are Indian/Pakistani/Lebanese etc. and do not hold another nationality. There are probably thousands of people who have this background. 
So it's laughable when recruiters in Dubai are so short-sighted as to who's a native English and who isn't. Of course, the big multinationals, banks etc. are less likely to make this mistake.


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

due to my nationality i wouldnt be considered a native english speaker despite the fact that it is my only language..

sad really, but what can you do?


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

I can tell that in social circles you wouldn't pass muster - I had a slight dig at you regarding the Spanish Inquisition, and I did that deliberately to see if you would respond appropriately.

If you had been brought up in the UK and associated with English people from an early age you would have known that there is a correct response which is not in the grammar books, or something that you would learn in a foreign country, and is largely only known to Brits, or at least western natives.

The correct answer should have been 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

brits are not the only native english speakers in the world. despite what you might imagine there are countries out where english is the official and only language that do not share your culture. also if you think EVERY single british person would respond like that or even think that then you don't know enough british people. maybe people of a certain class, age or culture within the uk would be more likely sure but i know brits who would not respond like that or even think that. 

EDIT: lol in fact I just asked a british person how they would respond to such a dig and he said ****** off or mind your own! i rest my case!

by the way that was not a curse word that was blocked out.. i dont curse and wouldnt in such an online forum, i dont know why they blocked out the word. 



twowheelsgood said:


> I can tell that in social circles you wouldn't pass muster - I had a slight dig at you regarding the Spanish Inquisition, and I did that deliberately to see if you would respond appropriately.
> 
> If you had been brought up in the UK and associated with English people from an early age you would have known that there is a correct response which is not in the grammar books, or something that you would learn in a foreign country, and is largely only known to Brits, or at least western natives.
> 
> The correct answer should have been 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

twowheelsgood said:


> I can tell that in social circles you wouldn't pass muster - I had a slight dig at you regarding the Spanish Inquisition, and I did that deliberately to see if you would respond appropriately.
> 
> If you had been brought up in the UK and associated with English people from an early age you would have known that there is a correct response which is not in the grammar books, or something that you would learn in a foreign country, and is largely only known to Brits, or at least western natives.
> 
> The correct answer should have been 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'


Hi,
Terry Jones went to my school and often came to events and fetes - real character, mad as a hatter!
Cheers
Steve


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

and to be clear i asked what a typical british person would say as a british person and they had no clue.... granted the person is a 19 year old..but yea..


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

aleleeson said:


> and to be clear i asked what a typical british person would say as a british person and they had no clue.... granted the person is a 19 year old..but yea..


Oh I can't bear it. This is all going 'whoosh' - it's Monty Python


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

19 year old = child 

Ask an adult .....

By definition, Brits are the only native speakers of English in the world. 

Thats what 'native' means.

Aericans speak english but speak "US English" which is not native English.


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

then the entire thread could be a cultural difference between the person who posted the job description and the person applying... i would never have classified brits as the only native english speakers.. i thought americans were also native english speakers... australians etc. as well.. to me native here implies birth or original language/mother tongue. maybe in the uk you all define native speakers differently but i think you will find it hard to find an american or australian who doesnt define themselves as a native english speaker. 



twowheelsgood said:


> 19 year old = child
> 
> Ask an adult .....
> 
> ...


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

also i am not the only one who defines native here as from birth..

native speaker Meaning in Cambridge English Dictionary

this is probably a cultural thing. in many parts of the world native english speaker does not mean only british.


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

aleleeson said:


> also i am not the only one who defines native here as from birth.. native speaker Meaning in Cambridge English Dictionary this is probably a cultural thing. in many parts of the world native english speaker does not mean only british.


I'm not getting involved in the original discussion, but I'm British. I was born in London and English is my mother tongue, but I'm not English.


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

BedouGirl said:


> I'm not getting involved in the original discussion, but I'm British. I was born in London and English is my mother tongue, but I'm not English.


but would you consider yourself a native english speaker or simply someone whose mother tongue is english??? would be interesting to hear what people from the US or australia think on this... maybe i just defined it badly all along.


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## sm105 (Jan 9, 2014)

When I started university in Atlanta, all non-US citizens who had graduated from a high school outside the USA had to take 1 year of "English as a Second Language" courses. This included Australians, South Africans, Indians and indeed, even kids from England. The course was taught by Professor Cheng who had a PhD in English from the University of Beijing and whose accent was entirely unintelligible.

I was born in India, grew up in England and Australia, and went to college in the USA and Canada. I have worked as a freelance writer for a US based periodical and have had a book published in English (available on Amazon.com!). I've even spent 17 hours in a cell after 9/11 undergoing "enhanced interrogation" because some ******* federal agent felt that "ya don't sound like an *****, where ya reelly from boy?". I like to believe that my English proficiency is fairly advanced and independent of my ethnic heritage.

None of this makes me a "native" speaker. If an employer cared about my ethnicity or birthplace more than they cared about my professional qualifications or actual ability, its their loss for having to settle for a lesser candidate of more "noble" birth.


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## sm105 (Jan 9, 2014)

pamela0810 said:


> I speak WAY better English than her (luckily she's not on this forum  )


I think you mean "I speak WAY better English than *SHE*".


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

sm105 said:


> I think you mean "I speak WAY better English than SHE".


Wouldn't that then require a 'does' at the end of the sentence ?


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## BedouGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

aleleeson said:


> but would you consider yourself a native english speaker or simply someone whose mother tongue is english??? would be interesting to hear what people from the US or australia think on this... maybe i just defined it badly all along.


In truth, I'm not sure if I can define the difference.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Kind of related topic

Plain English not apparently clear enough for the French 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...o-scrap-impossible-English-exam-question.html


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

sm105 said:


> I think you mean "I speak WAY better English than *SHE*".


No. I mean "*her*". I am NOT a Native English Speaker.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

Had a pretty funny meeting yesterday. A french guy speaking in English (with his accent of course), and English guy looking clueless as to what the French guy was saying, and an Indian (me) acting as the "interpreter".


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

UAE has actually made me believe 100% Britain is the superior race in this world. :yo:


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## SummerGlow (Jun 18, 2013)

iggles said:


> UAE has actually made me believe 100% Britain is the superior race in this world. :yo:


It is 100%


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

iggles said:


> UAE has actually made me believe 100% Britain is the superior race in this world. :yo:


Did you get these statistics from Barasti?


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

pamela0810 said:


> Did you get these statistics from Barasti?


No No, I have observed, noted and finally came to the conclusion all by my self. It's pretty obvious as well. 

Who could even compete with Britain :noidea: :second:


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## nite (Apr 11, 2012)

desiboy89 said:


> Well then, why wouldn't they even consider my application? Surely a phone call would be enough to judge whether I can at least speak fluent English?
> 
> I have been speaking English since pre-school and ALL my education has been in English. I speak in English to my family and friends back in India, and here in Dubai as well. I have also sent her links to my published articles and recommendations from my editors at my previous organisations.


Just move on and stop being so butt hurt! (Excuse my American idiom, it just fits) You must be going through a culture shock. Not everything is fair in life and not every country has an EEOC policing hiring. Get over it.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

Dibblington said:


> 'Proper' written English is the easy part to learn, speaking in conversation without giving away your 1st language isn't English is much, much harder. Even those who were born and lived all their lives in the UK still keep their family accent.
> 
> Accents are much harder to disguise and even harder to learn, even though I haven't lived in the westcountry for 15 years+, I still sound like Adge Cutler from the Wurzels.


Accent is less of a concern, mannerisms and verbal "tics" are.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

twowheelsgood said:


> I can tell that in social circles you wouldn't pass muster - I had a slight dig at you regarding the Spanish Inquisition, and I did that deliberately to see if you would respond appropriately.
> 
> If you had been brought up in the UK and associated with English people from an early age you would have known that there is a correct response which is not in the grammar books, or something that you would learn in a foreign country, and is largely only known to Brits, or at least western natives.
> 
> The correct answer should have been 'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition'


... _I'll come in again._


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

iggles said:


> UAE has actually made me believe 100% Britain is the superior race in this world. :yo:


Umm, you realise Britain is a country, not a race? Or are you pulling our leg?


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## SummerGlow (Jun 18, 2013)

In all honesty guys, the longer i stay here the more i appreciate the UK and what feeling at HOME actually is.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

In some ways I do, some ways I don't. The only thing I miss is mountain biking out of the back door. 

I can't stand the intolerance of Britain at the moment, the anti-immigrant and anti-muslim sentiments going round at the moment, constant reminders on Facebook of how intolerant Britain has become in the last few years. When you see so many nationalities all living together in Dubai it makes me think of how insular we have become.

I don't miss the inefficiency of our public transport system compared to the metro. The litter, grimey buildings, exhaust fumes, fights outside pubs, the lager lout culture. A week in the Netherlands last week reminded me I don't miss hayfever, cold weather or rain.

'Home' disappeared a long time ago, can't afford to move back to the Cotswolds after the Londonites bought all the Costwold stone houses and priced people like me out of ever owning a house there. Lived in all sorted of places over the UK and I have the choice of small town, insular attitudes or dirty, expensive cities full of a'holes and fashionista douchebags. 

I'm sure the novelty of endless summer will wear off soon but I don't fancy going back to the UK, New Zealand looks a firm favourite to be next on the list.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

Dibblington said:


> I can't stand the intolerance of Britain at the moment, the anti-immigrant and anti-muslim sentiments going round at the moment, constant reminders on Facebook of how intolerant Britain has become in the last few years. When you see so many nationalities all living together in Dubai it makes me think of how insular we have become.


Agree with basically everything you said. 

Quoted this, because as a pro-Union Scot I'm also not amused at the nationalistic attitude building north of the border. Admittedly I come from the Highlands, which is very unionist, but you find nuggets everywhere.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Dibblington said:


> I can't stand the intolerance of Britain at the moment, the anti-immigrant and anti-muslim sentiments going round at the moment, constant reminders on Facebook of how intolerant Britain has become in the last few years. When you see so many nationalities all living together in Dubai it makes me think of how insular we have become.


You sentence is very board and to be honest very incorrect.

How can you compare a city/nation of Dubai and UAE to Britain. It has 43 years of history, UK has 1,000 plus. Dubai needed the expats/immigrants to build quickly, Britain on the other are having alot of illegal people entering UK.

UAE laws are strict, and if you break the law your deported and banned, UK, we give you a council house and hug.

You cannot compare the two. I for one am an expat in UAE but I agree with "intolerant" side of UK atm. You might say I am contradicting myself by living here. I am not, I work here, when my job is done I will go home to UK. In the UK they have no intention of working, take benefits, take council houses and get UK passport.

Literally your statement is so far leftwing and biased. I don't want to insult your intelligence but I can't believe you compared the two. How you ever been to Leicester or Bradford? Have you ever left your ivory tower in the Cotswolds adn ventured into a city? I have, and trust me its not nice down there.


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

i'm not british but i guess i see both sides. i see how people could be upset about too many foreigners and i see how it is not really a problem. 

because i've been away from home for so long and i am a foreigner when i go back home (to trinidad) i'm always happy to meet foreigners who live there and have migrated there.. almost as though they balance out what i do by living in other people's place... people there complain about immigration as well and I just think isnt that nice to meet someone from somewhere else. 

for cultural reasons though, i also see why someone would be upset about places like London. It is an amazing place but on the trains i feel like hearing english is becoming rare and it is so mixed ...that is not a bad thing but i just see how someone who sees themselves as british or who values british culture would be upset that there is less of it now that there are so many other cultures there. 

yes you could say it is the same here in the uae.. yes arabic is not as common and so i could understand upset emirati people as well, but yea here the politics are totally different and i believe there is quite a lot of control over who stays here and who doesnt...but i could be wrong on this.. 

i dont know, all sides make sense yes!


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## gael_mehager (Jun 24, 2015)

Hi guys,

Don't want to interfer on your thread but since this post is about racism in recruitements, i thought may be...
Ok, i'm French and black. I would like to work in the UAE for few years but i have no idea how black people are perceived there, if they can have the same career opportunities and if their everyday life is filled with racist incidents or not.

In France we are supposed to be color blind in every way, so politicians don't do crap to try to fix the discriminations non whites are facing everyday.
I graduated from the N°1 BS in France so i'm better off then a lot of other blacks here. Anyway since graduation, i'm stucked in staff level jobs where i'm paid more, have more responsabilities but still no promotion.
That's the mindset here, black people can't manage. Now, almost 7 years after graduation, i see the gap with my former classmates growing wider and that's really frustrating.


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

Hi I am also black, but I'm too new here to fully say how blacks are treated... So far I have been treated completely normal.. nothing strange.

Two things of note that may be race related is that when I sit on the beach or in public spaces for very long, people offer me money and food.. i can only assume that they think I'm poor. I reject it, but it happens often enough. 
Also today I wanted to copy a key and the guy who copies keys gave me hell because apparently it is illegal for housemaids to copy keys. I'm black but my kids are very light as their father is white. He thought I was the maid/nanny. I had my visa on me because haha I never ever clean my hand bag and stuff collects in there over months.. My visa says HOUSE WIFE in both english and arabic but it seems this guy couldnt read, so he had to call someone and I waited and the person came and was able to read it. The other guy believed me right away also because my toddler was saying over and over "mommy, mommy, mommy look at this"

So in general everyone treats me normal. I have also met other black people who have lived here longer. I asked one and he said he never experienced discrimination (he is from nigeria), the two females that I know who are black are from a lower class and they said they feel it when looking for a place to live as most lower income housing is often reserved along racial lines and that can be hard for them. 

So yea, I think if you have a job here and you have money etc. as a black person in day to day life you will be treated normally, in job progression though.. I have no clue.. I imagine you should not have issues with it though but I honestly cant say. 



gael_mehager said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Don't want to interfer on your thread but since this post is about racism in recruitements, i thought may be...
> Ok, i'm French and black. I would like to work in the UAE for few years but i have no idea how black people are perceived there, if they can have the same career opportunities and if their everyday life is filled with racist incidents or not.
> ...


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

aleleeson said:


> Hi I am also black, but I'm too new here to fully say how blacks are treated... So far I have been treated completely normal.. nothing strange.
> 
> Two things of note that may be race related is that when I sit on the beach or in public spaces for very long, people offer me money and food.. i can only assume that they think I'm poor. I reject it, but it happens often enough.
> Also today I wanted to copy a key and the guy who copies keys gave me hell because apparently it is illegal for housemaids to copy keys. I'm black but my kids are very light as their father is white. He thought I was the maid/nanny. I had my visa on me because haha I never ever clean my hand bag and stuff collects in there over months.. My visa says HOUSE WIFE in both english and arabic but it seems this guy couldnt read, so he had to call someone and I waited and the person came and was able to read it. The other guy believed me right away also because my toddler was saying over and over "mommy, mommy, mommy look at this"
> ...


I agree with most things you're saying. My ex (black) gf and I did have some fun, certain nationalities couldn't comprehend that we were an item, she wasn't employed (in whatever category) by me.

However there is a lot of racism here, is that a good thing? In some ways it is (expecting to be hammered for this), as the average xxxxxxxxx/xxxx/xxxxxx is frankly rubbish at their jobs and that is exactly why their salaries are the level they are.

Example a mate of mine has just been finished after 12 years at Qatar Petroleum, purely on a cost basis - people will do his job (or so they think) at a quarter of his package - usually arabs, will they do the job (safety related) as well, and as dilligently as him? 

No.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

iggles said:


> Britain on the other are having alot of illegal people entering UK.
> 
> UK, we give you a council house and hug.
> 
> ...


Dibblington, you can run but you can't hide


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## aleleeson (Jun 10, 2015)

Hm well things are the way they are for certain reasons yes but it is still not something I can defend because too many people dont align with the average of whatever group they belong to, and sometimes our perception of the traits associated with certain groups just doesnt align with reality. 




The Rascal said:


> I agree with most things you're saying. My ex (black) gf and I did have some fun, certain nationalities couldn't comprehend that we were an item, she wasn't employed (in whatever category) by me.
> 
> However there is a lot of racism here, is that a good thing? In some ways it is (expecting to be hammered for this), as the average xxxxxxxxx/xxxx/xxxxxx is frankly rubbish at their jobs and that is exactly why their salaries are the level they are.
> 
> ...


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Mr Rossi said:


> Dibblington, you can run but you can't hide


:heh:
There's no need to hide, Iggles is entitled to his opinion no matter how much I disagree with it.

I could post a reply, another one comes back, I post another, then it descends into one-upmanship, assumptions about political stances and petty name calling. Been around the internet too long to bother with arguing on it. I've said my piece, Iggles has said his and we don't need you stirring the **** thanks.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Dibblington said:


> we don't need you stirring the **** thanks.


Like you, I've been around enough not to get involved with the mass of petty Enochs online.

It was jokey dig at a disdainful attitude, nothing more. My apologies if the byproduct has hurt your sensibilities.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Dibblington said:


> :heh:
> There's no need to hide, Iggles is entitled to his opinion no matter how much I disagree with it.
> 
> I could post a reply, another one comes back, I post another, then it descends into one-upmanship, assumptions about political stances and petty name calling. Been around the internet too long to bother with arguing on it. I've said my piece, Iggles has said his and we don't need you stirring the **** thanks.



I understand, and don't want that as well

My views are for a reason, and as the majority of the UK voted blue I don't think I stand alone


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

Native English speaker would mean a person who has used English as a primary language since childhood, however a lot of people consider a native English speaker to be someone who fits that criterion _and_ is of a particular race, they cannot imagine that someone of another race could actually have spoken English as a first and only language


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

iggles said:


> as the majority of the UK voted blue I don't think I stand alone


11.3 million from an electorate of 46.5 million and a population of 63.4 million.

Not discounting the few Tories that probably don't think the Queen's swans are at risk from the goulash pot.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

iggles said:


> I understand, and don't want that as well
> 
> My views are for a reason, and as the majority of the UK voted blue I don't think I stand alone


 And we all live happily ever after!


I wouldn't say the majority of the UK voted blue, 34% of the electorate didn't vote at all, and of the 66% who did, 37% voted blue (myself included).

24% of the UK voting blue means the majority, 76% of the UK didn't want them, but in the system we (used to) live in, they won.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Mr Rossi said:


> 11.3 million from an electorate of 46.5 million and a population of 63.4 million.
> 
> Not discounting the few Tories that probably don't think the Queen's swans are at risk from the goulash pot.


If you wan't to go like that

UKIP and the green party had more votes than SNP who has more seats? It doesn't matter, we all know how the system works and it ended blue.

If you were happy with Labour, TB and GB spending money left right and centre, putting us into debt, sending us on wars which we had no right to be in, inviting all corners of the world to our country (without asking the electorate), creating a culture of benefits - why are you in UAE, go back to UK. 

I left UK because I am ashamed of what we have become, i have no desire to ever go back.


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

:focus: please


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

I've been guilty in the past of hiring people with similar criteria (I tended to go for "western educated" though).

I have absolutely nothing against hiring Indians, Pakistanis or any other nationality, it's just the sheer amount of time it takes to wade through all the CV's you receive for every job advertisement from these nationalities, you have absolutely no chance to go through them in any detail, especially reading transcripts, etc.

It's not very nice, but I just did not want to waste a whole day looking for a needle in a haystack when I could very easily have a nice, condensed shortlist of suitable candidates by simply just ignoring all of those CV's.

I'm sure you spent a lot of time fine tuning your application, carefully writing the cover letter, supporting your credentials, etc. Unfortunately, the recruiter probably received 100 Indian CV's just before coming to your CV, all from people who didn't even bother to read the job description, and from experience will have copied and pasted their cover letter from other job adverts in other job portals and have names that don't match with the name on their e-mail address, etc.

If you want to see for yourself, stick up a bogus job advert on Dubizzle for a professional position with a strict set of requirements and see what floods your inbox.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Going through the same here. On the look out for a civil engineer and we've had over 500 CVs in a week, no way can you read each CV properly when you're shortlisting.

Had a couple of people ring up, speak to our admin girl (who is also the HR manager, office manager, PRO etc in a small office) with very little respect when they hear her Afghan accent. I tell her if anyone speaks to her like that, that's not the team we want to build here so make a note of their name and their CV goes straight in the bin without reading it. Attitude is as important as qualifications and an interview isn't just how you perform in the chair, it's how you interact with the wider team.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Dibblington said:


> Going through the same here. On the look out for a civil engineer and we've had over 500 CVs in a week, no way can you read each CV properly when you're shortlisting.
> 
> Had a couple of people ring up, speak to our admin girl (who is also the HR manager, office manager, PRO etc in a small office) with very little respect when they hear her Afghan accent. I tell her if anyone speaks to her like that, that's not the team we want to build here so make a note of their name and their CV goes straight in the bin without reading it. Attitude is as important as qualifications and an interview isn't just how you perform in the chair, it's how you interact with the wider team.


I am a civil engineer :behindsofa:


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

Dibblington said:


> Had a couple of people ring up, speak to our admin girl (who is also the HR manager, office manager, PRO etc in a small office) with very little respect when they hear her Afghan accent. I tell her if anyone speaks to her like that, that's not the team we want to build here so make a note of their name and their CV goes straight in the bin without reading it. .


Quite a few people judging by the attitudes around us would have made the admin girl leave instead saying "we do not want someone in our team who has an accent that is not _respected_"


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

She's the one source of local knowledge we have, she's going nowhere.



iggles said:


> I am a civil engineer :behindsofa:


Good man, I'm a mechanical engineer. Bloody engineers, coming over here, taking our jobs.


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## taliacottage (Dec 2, 2014)

Gavtek said:


> I've been guilty in the past of hiring people with similar criteria (I tended to go for "western educated" though).
> 
> I have absolutely nothing against hiring Indians, Pakistanis or any other nationality, it's just the sheer amount of time it takes to wade through all the CV's you receive for every job advertisement from these nationalities, you have absolutely no chance to go through them in any detail, especially reading transcripts, etc.
> 
> It's not very nice, but I just did not want to waste a whole day looking for a needle in a haystack when I could very easily have a nice, condensed shortlist of suitable candidates by simply just ignoring all of those CV's.


I am just curious. I never put my nationality on my CV. I am "western educated" though. Which pile would I end up in?


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

taliacottage said:


> I am just curious. I never put my nationality on my CV. I am "western educated" though. Which pile would I end up in?


Depends on your name.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

Gavtek said:


> I've been guilty in the past of hiring people with similar criteria (I tended to go for "western educated" though).
> 
> I have absolutely nothing against hiring Indians, Pakistanis or any other nationality, it's just the sheer amount of time it takes to wade through all the CV's you receive for every job advertisement from these nationalities, you have absolutely no chance to go through them in any detail, especially reading transcripts, etc.
> 
> ...


The best are random threads on Linkedin where someone is harvesting contact details, and it's hundreds of pages of people saying, "plz review". 

Have to pick between rolling my eyes, laughing, or both.


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## taliacottage (Dec 2, 2014)

pamela0810 said:


> Depends on your name.


That explains a lot! :confused2:


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Who would you employ?

James Evans

or

sisjfisjf sdfjsdjfsj sdlfjsdkljfwere ewrerpoir oe ooooooooo weoewriwe 

the email address alone would be my reason


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

taliacottage said:


> I am just curious. I never put my nationality on my CV. I am "western educated" though. Which pile would I end up in?


It would depend. Putting "western educated" on the advert generally does not do much anyway, it's basically a futile attempt to discourage timewasters.

My process is generally:

1 - Read the cover letter/e-mail. If it's typed well, and seems to be tailored to the job spec, and the person's name matches the e-mail address, then I open the CV (even if they are Indian or whatever). Maybe 25-30% of applicants pass this test (and unfortunately very, very, few of these people have Indian/Pakistani/Arabic sounding names). Personal peeve - use of "esteemed organisation" when they have no idea if we're esteemed or not.

2 - Look first at education for university/professional qualifications. If they've got a degree from Random Village College or ex-polytechnic that intentionally sounds similar to an established university, then it goes in the delete pile, as it does if they have an unrelated degree or something vague and pointless like Business Administration. 10% of total applicants at best get past this stage. Personal peeve - the objective section - stop lying to me before you've met me.

3 - Look at job history, for any experience in a similar level role, or slightly more junior (finance directors applying for accountant positions are a big red flag, but seemingly common for some reason) and any experience in multi-national companies and therefore multi-cultural workplaces and "westernised" business practices. I'll usually have 5/6 applicants that tick these boxes.

If you can articulate yourself to the standard I expect, and your CV suggests you'd be capable of doing the job, then you'd most likely get an interview, even if you're Indian and/or have a big bushy moustache.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Gavtek said:


> ... even if you're Indian and/or have a big bushy moustache.


Phew, I have a goatee that's recently been trimmed into a big bushy, trucker tash.

Still not sure whether to keep it or whether it will harm my employment prospects :confused2:


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## crt454 (Sep 3, 2012)

basically there looking for someone who dosent have an accent and speaks in correct dialect,thats what im guessing, i know its unfair but at the end of the day there the ones paying.


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## crt454 (Sep 3, 2012)

iggles said:


> UAE has actually made me believe 100% Britain is the superior race in this world. :yo:


i beg to differ


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## crt454 (Sep 3, 2012)

iggles said:


> You sentence is very board and to be honest very incorrect.
> 
> How can you compare a city/nation of Dubai and UAE to Britain. It has 43 years of history, UK has 1,000 plus. Dubai needed the expats/immigrants to build quickly, Britain on the other are having alot of illegal people entering UK.
> 
> ...


i whole heartly agree with you 100% !!!


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

crt454 said:


> basically there looking for someone who dosent have an accent and speaks in correct dialect,thats what im guessing, i know its unfair but at the end of the day there the ones paying.


Here's a perfect example of how even a lot of the "Native English Speakers" cannot write proper English.

Don't mean to pick on you but you've made it kind of easy for me to prove a point by getting your "their" and "there" mixed up.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

pamela0810 said:


> Here's a perfect example of how even a lot of the "Native English Speakers" cannot write proper English.
> 
> Don't mean to pick on you but you've made it kind of easy for me to prove a point by getting your "their" and "there" mixed up.


Actually to be grammatically correct that should be "they're", (shortened version of they are.)


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

Veronica said:


> Actually to be grammatically correct that should be "they're", (shortened version of they are.)


I had to go back 3 times and read it again slowly...you are 100% correct


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

If someone can correctly use their, there and they're in a complex paragraph I'd suggest they were not a native Brit.

Younger Brits today struggle to not use text-speak and when it comes to grammar they are equally lost. The principles of homonyms are not taught in schools and it would be fair to say, IMO, that most teachers are just as bad.

PS the Guinness Book for Records used to state that the word 'Rose' is the most prolific homonym - if I recall it has 28 different meanings.


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## sm105 (Jan 9, 2014)

pamela0810 said:


> Depends on your name.


How true.

I don't speak with an Indian accent and my name is more Western than Indian. I'm also quite fair skinned.

I've actually had colleagues who I've worked with for 2+ years suddenly say "Wait? You're INDIAN??? I didn't know that!"


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

I, as an employer, don't see any problem with racism/sexism in employment adverts.

If I want a black lesbian cripple in a wheelchair with a huge hatred towards men as my secretary as opposed to a blonde bimbo with big tits that can't type, why shouldn't I state that.

I'm paying after all.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

I'd love a blonde bimbo with big tits. Oh wait thats my partner!


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Today's forum, brought to you by the 1970's


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Mr Rossi said:


> Today's forum, brought to you by the 1970's


Or as Dubai calls it "The Present"


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

I thought it was 1436?


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

iggles said:


> I'd love a blonde bimbo with big tits. Oh wait thats my partner!


Bet you own shares in Andrex too....


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

The Rascal said:


> Bet you own shares in Andrex too....



hey don't be jelly. I am sure your right hands loves you back


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

iggles said:


> hey don't be jelly. I am sure your right hands loves you back


Good cum back....


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Britain First and Unilad, not only inescapable on Facebook but it looks like on here too.


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## WhitneyJ (Jun 19, 2015)

crt454 said:


> basically there looking for someone who dosent have an accent and speaks in correct dialect,thats what im guessing, i know its unfair but at the end of the day there the ones paying.


And sometimes looks matter, too. I know some Indian-Americans here who face similar issues. They were born, raised, and educated in the US, and some cannot even speak an Indian language. But they are not treated the same as white Americans. It is frustrating and it is unfair that people are not treated equally at all times, but it is a part of life - not just here, but everywhere.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Mr Rossi said:


> Britain First and Unilad, not only inescapable on Facebook but it looks like on here too.


You're scottish, you wouldn't understand - and as my gf is, shall we say, slightly sunburned....


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## crt454 (Sep 3, 2012)

Yea genes dont lie, skin color will goes with you whare ever you are.


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## XDoodlebugger (Jan 24, 2012)

twowheelsgood said:


> Not all white people are English native speakers.
> 
> Not all people who claim they can speak English, can speak English like a native.
> 
> ...


My favorite is an advert on Radio 2 right now for a bar called Rodeo Drive. He does a pretty good American accent but then says "mossy on down" to Rodeo Drive, a native American speaker (we after all perfected the English language) would of course pronounced it "mosey on down", M OH SY, for Gods sake, it makes the guy sound like a total tool. 

Another is also an advertisement for car company where the patron says " how can I avail myself of this offer?", who actually talks like that?


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

XDoodle****** said:


> Another is also an advertisement for car company where the patron says " how can I avail myself of this offer?", who actually talks like that?


Indians!!

Same advert has a really bad edit on the second price mentioned - last figure is a four - it sounds totally different to the other numbers and has been added later!


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## ReefPony (Jun 22, 2015)

XDoodle****** said:


> My favorite is an advert on Radio 2 right now for a bar called Rodeo Drive. He does a pretty good American accent but then says "mossy on down" to Rodeo Drive, a native American speaker (we after all perfected the English language) would of course pronounced it "mosey on down", M OH SY, for Gods sake, it makes the guy sound like a total tool.
> 
> Another is also an advertisement for car company where the patron says " how can I avail myself of this offer?", who actually talks like that?


To be honest, I'm not sure an American would ever use the phrase "mosey on down" when talking about any place named "Rodeo Drive". "Mosey on down" makes me think of a country and western bar with sawdust on the floor and a mechanical bull in the corner... not the most famous shopping area in Beverly Hills.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

ReefPony said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure an American would ever use the phrase "mosey on down" when talking about any place named "Rodeo Drive". "Mosey on down" makes me think of a country and western bar with sawdust on the floor and a mechanical bull in the corner... not the most famous shopping area in Beverly Hills.


"Mosey" makes me think more of the deep south, but that's just me.


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## Dibblington (Apr 20, 2015)

Same here, both for 'Mosey on down' and 'Rodeo drive' make me think of some cheapo, backwards hickville place where a guy in dungarees chewing straw sells nackered old pickups from a dusty yard. He's probably got a moonshine still somewhere out back.

It's a good example of where non-native English speakers get it all wrong. Not the sort of advert you want to be putting out.


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## Navaron (Oct 13, 2014)

Sadly this is commonplace, however it works the other way too. my white English wife has been rejected for many jobs in hospitals (where she worked in the NHS for 18 years in the UK) because she wasn't Filipino.... again it happens for all nationalities


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Navaron said:


> Sadly this is commonplace, however it works the other way too. my white English wife has been rejected for many jobs in hospitals (where she worked in the NHS for 18 years in the UK) because she wasn't Filipino.... again it happens for all nationalities


I call "Bullxxxx" on that.


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

"Rejected for not being Filipino" is another way of saying "rejected because they're not willing to pay more than 5000 Dirhams per month".


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## A.Abbass (Jun 28, 2014)

Navaron said:


> Sadly this is commonplace, however it works the other way too. my white English wife has been rejected for many jobs in hospitals (where she worked in the NHS for 18 years in the UK) because she wasn't Filipino.... again it happens for all nationalities


That's definitely not true. She was rejected because she's overqualified or/and the hospital cannot afford her.

Just try re-applying again and express her willingness to accept salaries of her fellow Filipino nurses, she will get the job in a glimpse. Nobody cares here about vast experience but rather fresh inexperienced employees who accept low pays.


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## iggles (Jan 4, 2015)

Actually I have suffered Racism in the Work place 

I am British if you weren't aware  . And due to that I have to deal with everyone's mistakes, letters, phone calls, typing errors, stupid small stuff, to creating folders, to presentations, to meetings, because no one else has the education to do so.

It's damn well annoying.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

No one has applied for the job I posted earlier, well, none that filled the criteria anyway.


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## GloballyRelaxed (Nov 5, 2014)

The Rascal said:


> No one has applied for the job I posted earlier, well, none that filled the criteria anyway.



Which is a shame on so many levels.


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## TheTaxMan (Jul 2, 2015)

Racism is just more straight forward out there. Unlike other parts of the world where racism is so enshrined in the culture that it subtly exists. And don't forget 30% of the UAE are Indians.


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