# Cln



## Lovecheese

Has anyone heard if you have to pick up your CLN in person or do they mail it to your address?


----------



## pwdunn

Lovecheese said:


> Has anyone heard if you have to pick up your CLN in person or do they mail it to your address?


Haven't heard back from the Toronto consulate. I was there April 7. Still, I am scarecrow, brains but no paperwork. I relinquished February 28, 2011, when I became a Canadian citizen.


----------



## Lovecheese

PetrosResearch said:


> Haven't heard back from the Toronto consulate. I was there April 7. Still, I am scarecrow, brains but no paperwork. I relinquished February 28, 2011, when I became a Canadian citizen.


Wow, thats pretty frustrating! Just left in limbo basically. I am really hoping that we dont have to go in person AGAIN. Its not easy when you live so far away and its a plane ticket to get there.


----------



## Lovecheese

Would you just file for the first few months of 2011 even though you dont have your offical CLN yet?
Now I wonder how that will work with FATCA if those of us renouncing in early 2012 do not get our certificates in time with the banks starting the processes soon... (Sigh) this nightmare NEVER stops.


----------



## pwdunn

Lovecheese said:


> Would you just file for the first few months of 2011 even though you dont have your offical CLN yet?
> Now I wonder how that will work with FATCA if those of us renouncing in early 2012 do not get our certificates in time with the banks starting the processes soon... (Sigh) this nightmare NEVER stops.


I am going to write a post at Isaac Brock soon on this. There is a problem in US law regarding the in between status of not being a US person and being held in limbo by the IRS. It is a violation of basic human rights, recognized by the United Nations and by United States code.


----------



## justbrowsing

Lovecheese said:


> Would you just file for the first few months of 2011 even though you dont have your offical CLN yet?
> Now I wonder how that will work with FATCA if those of us renouncing in early 2012 do not get our certificates in time with the banks starting the processes soon... (Sigh) this nightmare NEVER stops.


My understanding is you file until the day before you do the Oath of Renunciation. Luckily my bank took the notarized copy of the OofR as proof of loss of citizenship and removed all references to USC on my accounts.


----------



## 416

justbrowsing said:


> My understanding is you file until the day before you do the Oath of Renunciation.


Yes, but when? I'd like to wrap the whole package up and renounce it from my life.


----------



## Lovecheese

justbrowsing said:


> My understanding is you file until the day before you do the Oath of Renunciation. Luckily my bank took the notarized copy of the OofR as proof of loss of citizenship and removed all references to USC on my accounts.


So, how did you get the notarized copies of those papers as some on here have stated they would not allow them copies of any papers signed. in my opinion thats absurd as then we have no leg to stand on when it comes to this FATCA crap or filing taxes. Its ridiculous how long people have been waiting to get their CLN, it shouldn't take 6-12 months to make a certificate, I can send them printshop if they like! It takes less time to get a passport and they send that in the mail! Geesh!!!!!

I really hope they will send these to us and not expect us to yet again, travel to pick them up. I would be more then happy to send my 450.00 to them before they send me the documents, just dont make me fly there to pick up a paper.


----------



## Guest

justbrowsing said:


> My understanding is you file until the day before you do the Oath of Renunciation. Luckily my bank took the notarized copy of the OofR as proof of loss of citizenship and removed all references to USC on my accounts.


That's good to know. 

All the more reason to demand a copy of the oath when you sign it, and in fact to fill out the form and have it notarized and copied before you arrive so you'll have a copy even if they don't give you the one they sign (I've posted this suggest elsEwhere several times on this forum, but it's worth repeating because it's a good one - THIS IS YOUR OATH, NOT THEIRS, AND YOUR SIGNATURE ON IT, SO YOU MAKE IT AND YOU DARN WELL GET A COPY OF IT). But if they refuse to give you a copy (it seems some officers have done this) demand to speak with a supervisor and complain politely but firmly. It's your oath, you have a right to a copy of whatever you swear to and sign. Even if you can't afford a lawyer, threaten them with legal action anyway if they don't give you a copy. (See Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" on this and related points ... google alinsky and you'll find them on the net). Use words like "abuse of authority" and demand to see where in their procedures or regulations manual it says a consular officer has a right to refuse to give you a copy of your own oath ...

You have rights but you may have to exercise them if confronted with a power-mad or just-ignorant bureaucrat. If you don't complain at the time, it's harder to complain later. Be polite and non-violent, but don't give in.

Also, if some banks start accepting the OofR and others don't, Justbrowsing would you mind then privately sharing with people via private email requests the name of your branch and bank for a legal challenge against any other banks that behave differently?

Rules are rules, procedures are procedures, and if one bank is going to accept this as a "free pass" from the USC tickbox, they all had damn well better or there will be lots of fun and profit for lawyers ... and I wouldn't be shy in making this point or referring to seeing a public web post that at least one bank is accepting an OofR in lieu of a CLN for FATCA purposes. And, as always, if the banker you're dealing with doesn't buy this, demand to speak with a supervisor and keep crawling up the chain of command until you get satisfaction. Don't just accept a "no" on this!!!

Well done and thanks for posting this, Justbrowsing!!!:clap2::clap2:


----------



## Guest

Lovecheese said:


> So, how did you get the notarized copies of those papers as some on here have stated they would not allow them copies of any papers signed. in my opinion thats absurd as then we have no leg to stand on when it comes to this FATCA crap or filing taxes. Its ridiculous how long people have been waiting to get their CLN, it shouldn't take 6-12 months to make a certificate, I can send them printshop if they like! It takes less time to get a passport and they send that in the mail! Geesh!!!!!
> 
> I really hope they will send these to us and not expect us to yet again, travel to pick them up. I would be more then happy to send my 450.00 to them before they send me the documents, just dont make me fly there to pick up a paper.


Google "DS-4079" to get a PDF copy of the form they use. Download and print it, then fill it out. Take two copies to a notary public and sign both in front of him/her and get it sealed or whatever notaries do. Put one copy in your safe deposit box. Bring the other copy with you to the Consulate or Embassy and hand it to them, saying you thought you'd save everyone some time and trouble by doing this in advance.

If they refuse to accept your copy and insist on a new one and still don't give a copy back to you, you still have signed a notarized oath. Present that to your bank, tell them the State Department refused to give you their countersigned copy, that you think that's illegal, and that you're seeking legal advice about how to proceed against them. At the same time suggest they accept what you're presenting (from your safe deposit box -- actually on second thought, get your notary to do THREE copies in case the bank asks for one and State doesn't give yours back). Tell the bank, if they don't accept this approach, ask to speak to a supervisor and if he/she says the same, inform them that you'll gladly include the bank in your legal action against the consular officer. 

win by intimidation and don't flinch. (Ask any poker player about this). And it's not just a bluff -- it's an outrage if they won't give you a copy of your own sworn statement. Ask any lawyer about that ... I'm 99% certain he or she would agree.


----------



## Lovecheese

Schubert said:


> That's good to know.
> 
> All the more reason to demand a copy of the oath when you sign it, and in fact to fill out the form and have it notarized and copied before you arrive so you'll have a copy even if they don't give you the one they sign (I've posted this suggest elsEwhere several times on this forum, but it's worth repeating because it's a good one - THIS IS YOUR OATH, NOT THEIRS, AND YOUR SIGNATURE ON IT, SO YOU MAKE IT AND YOU DARN WELL GET A COPY OF IT). But if they refuse to give you a copy (it seems some officers have done this) demand to speak with a supervisor and complain politely but firmly. It's your oath, you have a right to a copy of whatever you swear to and sign. Even if you can't afford a lawyer, threaten them with legal action anyway if they don't give you a copy. (See Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" on this and related points ... google alinsky and you'll find them on the net). Use words like "abuse of authority" and demand to see where in their procedures or regulations manual it says a consular officer has a right to refuse to give you a copy of your own oath ...
> 
> You have rights but you may have to exercise them if confronted with a power-mad or just-ignorant bureaucrat. If you don't complain at the time, it's harder to complain later. Be polite and non-violent, but don't give in.
> 
> Also, if some banks start accepting the OofR and others don't, Justbrowsing would you mind then privately sharing with people via private email requests the name of your branch and bank for a legal challenge against any other banks that behave differently?
> 
> Rules are rules, procedures are procedures, and if one bank is going to accept this as a "free pass" from the USC tickbox, they all had damn well better or there will be lots of fun and profit for lawyers ... and I wouldn't be shy in making this point or referring to seeing a public web post that at least one bank is accepting an OofR in lieu of a CLN for FATCA purposes. And, as always, if the banker you're dealing with doesn't buy this, demand to speak with a supervisor and keep crawling up the chain of command until you get satisfaction. Don't just accept a "no" on this!!!
> 
> Well done and thanks for posting this, Justbrowsing!!!:clap2::clap2:


Ok, dumb question. how do you get a notarized copy as dont you only get this once your actually in your appt?
All they sent me by email was the questionaire and its just basically, name birthday and a few other small questions, i cant remember off the top of my head.


----------



## Lovecheese

Lovecheese said:


> Ok, dumb question. how do you get a notarized copy as dont you only get this once your actually in your appt?
> All they sent me by email was the questionaire and its just basically, name birthday and a few other small questions, i cant remember off the top of my head.


nevermind, i seen now your post! Thanks


----------



## Lovecheese

Has there been anyone else who has went to Calgary and not been given a signed copy of their OofR? I know Peg did not get one.


----------



## Guest

Lovecheese said:


> Ok, dumb question. how do you get a notarized copy as dont you only get this once your actually in your appt?
> All they sent me by email was the questionaire and its just basically, name birthday and a few other small questions, i cant remember off the top of my head.


Google DS-4080 and get that form, sorry I am focused on relinquishing not renunciation and the former can be done on 4079. 4080 is what you use for renouncing. Happily, the State Department actually provides all these forms on their website! It's amazing what one can quickly find these days on the Internet. (not at all like it was back in the 1970s and 1980s when some of us were relinquishing without any idea that State wanted or someday would expect a form to be filled out, how the hell was someone in pre-internet days supposed to figure that out after living blissfully and separately from the US for five or six years ...)

BTW I don't need to keep doing this, anyone can just Google "oath of renunciation" and believe me the link appears on the first page of hits.

Please everyone do your own googling from now on and don't rely on the rest of us to do your work for you! This part isn't rocket science, though I admit you have to have the idea that maybe a quick google search will find what you want. It almost always works, it works for me, and I'm not one to spend lots of time on google (though these past four months have certainly made me more aggressive about looking for stuff like this) :ranger:

Interesting personal aside -- the numbers/bureaucracy freak in me was sort of wondering why the Request for Determination is 4079 and the Statement of Understanding of Consequences is 4081, what about 4080? Didn't bother looking until I googled to answer your question, now I know. There is a logic of sorts to the form numbering. God bless anal-retentive bureaucrats!


----------



## Lovecheese

Sooo.... I am so confused. Once we renounce, can we send in our 8854 to the IRS soon after or do we wait for the CLN to arrive?

i have googled like everyone but sometimes, its not always easy to understand and various websites do hold differnt info, thats the purpose of this forum is it not, to get advice from people who have actually gone through it and provide help.


----------



## Lovecheese

Schubert said:


> Google DS-4080 and get that form, sorry I am focused on relinquishing not renunciation and the former can be done on 4079. 4080 is what you use for renouncing. Happily, the State Department actually provides all these forms on their website! It's amazing what one can quickly find these days on the Internet. (not at all like it was back in the 1970s and 1980s when some of us were relinquishing without any idea that State wanted or someday would expect a form to be filled out, how the hell was someone in pre-internet days supposed to figure that out after living blissfully and separately from the US for five or six years ...)
> 
> BTW I don't need to keep doing this, anyone can just Google "oath of renunciation" and believe me the link appears on the first page of hits.
> 
> Please everyone do your own googling from now on and don't rely on the rest of us to do your work for you! This part isn't rocket science, though I admit you have to have the idea that maybe a quick google search will find what you want. It almost always works, it works for me, and I'm not one to spend lots of time on google (though these past four months have certainly made me more aggressive about looking for stuff like this) :ranger:
> 
> Interesting personal aside -- the numbers/bureaucracy freak in me was sort of wondering why the Request for Determination is 4079 and the Statement of Understanding of Consequences is 4081, what about 4080? Didn't bother looking until I googled to answer your question, now I know. There is a logic of sorts to the form numbering. God bless anal-retentive bureaucrats!


I actually take great offense to that as it has made me now not want to post or ask questions and this forum was the only thing keeping me sane. I do not understand many things on the "googled" websites so I do rely on what others say on here and how they interpet things.


----------



## Guest

Lovecheese said:


> Sooo.... I am so confused. Once we renounce, can we send in our 8854 to the IRS soon after or do we wait for the CLN to arrive?


Excellent question, one that maybe needs a lawyer though I'm not sure.

Logic (is logic even remotely relevant here??) says that, given the wording of form 8854 instructions that your date of expatriation is when you apply for relinquishment or renunciation _provided that State accepts the application -- see the form i8854.pdf for their exact wording --_ I would suggest, based on my understanding that after issuing you the CLN State copies it to IRS and IRS then sends you an 8854, that you wait and make the b******s come after you with an 8854. Play dumb, unless State tells you explicitly about 8854 at the interview (and I don't believe they do that) how are you supposed to know about that form? Yes you read about it here, but don't tell them that. Lots of folks will stumble into this process without knowing what forms they need, you can always claim ignorance. I haven't seen a single media article yet on 8854 per se or what the sequence of events is. No one can identify you or me from our posts on this forum given we're using pseudonyms. And while there are horrible penalties for refusing to complete and return to them an 8854 once they send it to you, I haven't seen anywhere a deadline for filing it or penalties for "late filing" an 8854, nor have I seen anywhere official that says it's your responsibility to know about their damn form and send it to them. (Someone please correct me in a reply to this post on this thread if I'm wrong, thanks.)

The IRS directives to everyone they posted on December 8 don't say a damn thing about 8854, because 8854 is only for people "exiting" the US forever and the IRS, like most other "exceptional" Americans, can't compehend there might be people out here who hate what their country has become and would rather have red-hot knitting needles inserted into our eyeballs than remain a citizen of their bankrupt (and not just financially) country.

IRS hasn't issued any public directives that I've seen, and hence likely anyone else has seen, and certainly the media haven't reported on, what the process and steps are here. You can pay $$$$ and ask a lawyer, or you can be an innocent citizen who has a reasonable expectation that if his bloody ex-government wants something they'll ask for it, and wait and see.

Make the filthy f*****s work for it.

And a humungous BAH HUMBUG to everyone at IRS, may Santa leave only radioactive coal in your stockings Saturday night.

to everyone on this forum (except any IRS trolls who might wander by), best wishes for the holidays. Take a break from this b*****t for a few days and give yourself and your family a break! I will. I'm not even glancing at this forum again, after this afternoon, until after Boxing Day, if then ...


----------



## Peg

Lovecheese said:


> I actually take great offense to that as it has made me now not want to post or ask questions and this forum was the only thing keeping me sane. I do not understand many things on the "googled" websites so I do rely on what others say on here and how they interpet things.


You are welcome to ask questions. Although Schubert has given some good info - it is not his forum nor his place to decide the rules of the forum.

I try to search on the forum and google for answers and then post the question. It can be frustrating when multiple people ask the same question that has been answered many times.


----------



## Guest

Peg said:


> You are welcome to ask questions. Although Schubert has given some good info - it is not his forum nor his place to decide the rules of the forum.n
> 
> I try to search on the forum and google for answers and then post the question. It can be frustrating when multiple people ask the same question that has been answered many times.


Sorry Lovecheese no offense intended, but as she says, one does sometimes get a bit frustrated at repetition. Part of that I guess is the inevitable result of the ways threads morph and finding things by thread headers isn't generally easy here... and that's all our faults.

And Peg's right, it's not my forum and not my rules. Lashings of apologies all around.


----------



## Madonna

Lovecheese said:


> I actually take great offense to that as it has made me now not want to post or ask questions and this forum was the only thing keeping me sane. I do not understand many things on the "googled" websites so I do rely on what others say on here and how they interpet things.


I have gained much information from this forum and don't know where I would be without it! So keep posting and asking. Those who want to answer, will.

I do suggest, though, confirming the information for yourself, as I have done, through the IRS site or whatever is appropriate. It helps to have a direction or a form number or.... And this forum is good for that. Do what you need to do for yourself and don't let anything or anyone deter you from that.


----------



## pwdunn

PetrosResearch said:


> I am going to write a post at Isaac Brock soon on this. There is a problem in US law regarding the in between status of not being a US person and being held in limbo by the IRS. It is a violation of basic human rights, recognized by the United Nations and by United States code.


The stalker: the messy divorce process from the United States | The Isaac Brock Society


----------



## Peg

Schubert said:


> ... All the more reason to demand a copy of the oath when you sign it. ...


That is not as easy as it sounds when you are fearful of the IRS and the Consul is not rubber stamping your form. The Consul I met did not seem to comprehend why I would renounce and talked to me for a long time giving me reasons not to renounce. He also said a couple of things that surprised us and quite frankly, threw us off (e.g., that my kids might still be USCs and something about my street which made it sound like he google mapped it).

I did ask for copies and was refused but I was not going to *demand* them. Yes, I wish I could have but at that point I was concerned that the Consul could put some red flag on my file.

I am not a wallflower by any means and feel that if I was intimidated during the appointment others may be as well. It does not help to tell people that they "demand" the form if they are not comfortable doing that.


----------



## Ladyhawk

Schubert said:


> And a humungous BAH HUMBUG to everyone at IRS, may Santa leave only radioactive coal in your stockings Saturday night.
> 
> to everyone on this forum (except any IRS trolls who might wander by), best wishes for the holidays. Take a break from this b*****t for a few days and give yourself and your family a break! I will. I'm not even glancing at this forum again, after this afternoon, until after Boxing Day, if then ...


Take a well-deserved break, Schubert, and enjoy the blessings of this life in this country.
We shall all return, I hope, refreshed and renewed to take up the torch and continue the good fight together. I feel blessed to have the friendly and feisty support of the fine people here, who have done so much to make me realize again how glad I am that my Canadian parents left me the legacy that inhabits this country. Be well, all, and we will meet anon.


----------



## justbrowsing

Just to clarify what happened with my recent renunciation in Toronto. During the second interview the consul and I each signed 3 copies of the Oath of Renunciation. I was handed 1 copy which had the seal pressed into the paper and I was told to travel with it and my CDN passport. She kept the other 2 copies and said 1 copy stayed in Toronto and the other went to DC.

I took my copy of the Oath of Renunciation to the Nexus office and had my citizenship changed to just CDN. Neither officer at Nexus had ever seen the form but they accepted it, made a photocopy for a file, and handed me back my original. My new Nexus card arrived about a week later.

I then had a US notary ($10 instead of the $50-$75 gouging being offered in Canada) make a certified copy of the Oath of Renunciation. I sent that certified copy to my CDN broker to have the USC status removed. They made the change within a week. I checked and our other financial institution had no record of me being a USC so there was nothing to do there.

So basically I think I am done except for the final filing of the 8854 which I will do once my CDN tax receipts and T2 are complete in March/April


----------



## Lovecheese

I think your right, we all need a well needed break from this. I find I am overly sensitive and completely losing my marbles with all this. the only thing keeping me going is the replys and confidence I get from the people on this forum. I am a nurse by trade and know nothing of taxes, laws or how to figure out their meaning when we all know how complicated the wordings can be. I spend endless hours researching and googling and thats what sometimes becomes frustrating as then you can come across different information/wording then what you thought before and then you just don't know where to turn. It would be nice if we all had the money to spend on the services of professional lawyers and such, but I am not one of those rich wealthy folks who can do that and I am sure many of you are the same. 
Thank you to all who provide your experiences and support/advice, it goes a long way and helps so many of us out! I have finally been getting some sleep at night
Merry Christmas to everyone!


----------



## rivka88

justbrowsing said:


> Just to clarify what happened with my recent renunciation in Toronto. During the second interview the consul and I each signed 3 copies of the Oath of Renunciation. I was handed 1 copy which had the seal pressed into the paper and I was told to travel with it and my CDN passport. She kept the other 2 copies and said 1 copy stayed in Toronto and the other went to DC.
> 
> I took my copy of the Oath of Renunciation to the Nexus office and had my citizenship changed to just CDN. Neither officer at Nexus had ever seen the form but they accepted it, made a photocopy for a file, and handed me back my original. My new Nexus card arrived about a week later.
> 
> I then had a US notary ($10 instead of the $50-$75 gouging being offered in Canada) make a certified copy of the Oath of Renunciation. I sent that certified copy to my CDN broker to have the USC status removed. They made the change within a week. I checked and our other financial institution had no record of me being a USC so there was nothing to do there.
> 
> 
> So basically I think I am done except for the final filing of the 8854 which I will do once my CDN tax receipts and T2 are complete in March/April



The corps of commisionaires (only Canadian military veterans are allowed) will certify copies for you, the last time I needed certified copies the cost was 5$. They usually serve as security guards and information officers at federal office buildings


----------



## greyowl

Schubert states "And while there are horrible penalties for refusing to complete and return to them an 8854"

How much are the penalties if you simple ignore it? How could they enforce any penalties if you remain in Canada and don't return to the US?


----------



## pwdunn

greyowl said:


> Schubert states "And while there are horrible penalties for refusing to complete and return to them an 8854"
> 
> How much are the penalties if you simple ignore it? How could they enforce any penalties if you remain in Canada and don't return to the US?


They can't. That's the point of this post: 

The stalker: divorce from the United States is a messy process | The Isaac Brock Society


----------



## greyowl

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Baird68

Lovecheese said:


> I actually take great offense to that as it has made me now not want to post or ask questions and this forum was the only thing keeping me sane. I do not understand many things on the "googled" websites so I do rely on what others say on here and how they interpet things.


Keep asking the questions. I'll Google for you, if you like. Those who don't want to, don't have to. We need to help each other, and no question is dumb.


----------



## Baird68

justbrowsing said:


> Just to clarify what happened with my recent renunciation in Toronto. During the second interview the consul and I each signed 3 copies of the Oath of Renunciation. I was handed 1 copy which had the seal pressed into the paper and I was told to travel with it and my CDN passport. She kept the other 2 copies and said 1 copy stayed in Toronto and the other went to DC.
> 
> I took my copy of the Oath of Renunciation to the Nexus office and had my citizenship changed to just CDN. Neither officer at Nexus had ever seen the form but they accepted it, made a photocopy for a file, and handed me back my original. My new Nexus card arrived about a week later.
> 
> I then had a US notary ($10 instead of the $50-$75 gouging being offered in Canada) make a certified copy of the Oath of Renunciation. I sent that certified copy to my CDN broker to have the USC status removed. They made the change within a week. I checked and our other financial institution had no record of me being a USC so there was nothing to do there.
> 
> 
> 
> So basically I think I am done except for the final filing of the 8854 which I will do once my CDN tax receipts and T2 are complete in March/April


Thanks for sharing, Juatbrowsing! I love the idea of getting a Nexus card with your copy of the Oath and then having it notarized by a U.S. official. Great idea.


----------



## smccarth

Lovecheese said:


> Has anyone heard if you have to pick up your CLN in person or do they mail it to your address?


I regret having to ask this, but I have seen this acronym before and I can't figure out what it is. Would someone please tell me what CLN means?
Thanks in advance


----------



## pwdunn

Certificate of Loss of Nationality, issued by the United States State Department when they have determined that the person has lost his/her US citizenship.


----------



## vangy

Baird68 said:


> Thanks for sharing, Juatbrowsing! I love the idea of getting a Nexus card with your copy of the Oath and then having it notarized by a U.S. official. Great idea.


Hi Justbrowsing ! Do you have to file 5 years back tax and fbar.Thanks


----------



## justbrowsing

vangy said:


> Hi Justbrowsing ! Do you have to file 5 years back tax and fbar.Thanks


I actually did 6 and with the 2011 that will make 7 returns and fbars. The 6 was based on suggestions from 2 accountants.


----------



## vangy

justbrowsing said:


> I actually did 6 and with the 2011 that will make 7 returns and fbars. The 6 was based on suggestions from 2 accountants.


Thanks for reply.


----------



## Guest

Baird68,

Hopefully I am a year behind you in the renunciation/relinquishment. 

With regards to tax compliancy...did you just assume you were tax compliant because the IRS never got in touch with you?..or did you actually do some sort of a 'check' before hand.

Just trying to get my information correct before I begin the process.

This seems to be a huge issue with the Lawyers in my neck of the woods...so that might tell you they are wrong.


----------



## KalC

Mach7 said:


> Baird68,
> 
> Hopefully I am a year behind you in the renunciation/relinquishment.
> 
> With regards to tax compliancy...did you just assume you were tax compliant because the IRS never got in touch with you?..or did you actually do some sort of a 'check' before hand.
> 
> Just trying to get my information correct before I begin the process.
> 
> This seems to be a huge issue with the Lawyers in my neck of the woods...so that might tell you they are wrong.


You are compliant when you have made an honest effort to file. They may never get back to you They have hundreds of millions of returns. Make your best effort an renounce and good luck


----------



## Baird68

Mach7 said:


> Baird68,
> 
> Hopefully I am a year behind you in the renunciation/relinquishment.
> 
> With regards to tax compliancy...did you just assume you were tax compliant because the IRS never got in touch with you?..or did you actually do some sort of a 'check' before hand.
> 
> Just trying to get my information correct before I begin the process.
> 
> This seems to be a huge issue with the Lawyers in my neck of the woods...so that might tell you they are wrong.


I made sure I had 5 years of taxes done (2006-10) and 5 years of FBARs. My appointment to relinquish was towards the end of November and the taxes and FBARs were sent before the end of the year. My accountant told me that 5 years was expected and a final filing for 2011 will probably be required as I officially relinquished in 2011. However, if my CLN is back dated to 1969, I will not be sending any more taxes and FBARs. I just wanted to cover all bases.


----------



## greyowl

Baird68 said:


> I made sure I had 5 years of taxes done (2006-10) and 5 years of FBARs. My appointment to relinquish was towards the end of November and the taxes and FBARs were sent before the end of the year. My accountant told me that 5 years was expected and a final filing for 2011 will probably be required as I officially relinquished in 2011. However, if my CLN is back dated to 1969, I will not be sending any more taxes and FBARs. I just wanted to cover all bases.


It seems contradictory to be seeking a CLN to establishing the fact that you relinquished when you became a Canadian in 1969 and to be filing of US tax returns. If your intention at the time of becoming a Canadian was to no longer be a US citizen, then filing of tax returns contradicts that because a non-US citizen would not be expected to file a tax return. This is even on of the criteria that the State Department uses to determine if you actually intended to relinquish US citizenship when you committed the act of becoming a Canadian.


----------



## pwdunn

greyowl said:


> It seems contradictory to be seeking a CLN to establishing the fact that you relinquished when you became a Canadian in 1969 and to be filing of US tax returns. If your intention at the time of becoming a Canadian was to no longer be a US citizen, then filing of tax returns contradicts that because a non-US citizen would not be expected to file a tax return. This is even on of the criteria that the State Department uses to determine if you actually intended to relinquish US citizenship when you committed the act of becoming a Canadian.


I want to be sure that everyone is aware of the following post: Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995? Then you did not have to inform the State Department | The Isaac Brock Society

I agree with the statement by greyowl, though it should be stated that also non-citizens find themselves in situations where they need to file--though I would argue (as Baird knows) that this is not one of them.


----------



## greyowl

PetrosResearch said:


> I want to be sure that everyone is aware of the following post: Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995? Then you did not have to inform the State Department | The Isaac Brock Society
> 
> I agree with the statement by greyowl, though it should be stated that also non-citizens find themselves in situations where they need to file--though I would argue (as Baird knows) that this is not one of them.


I am curious, if anyone who has completed the relinquishment questionnaire has answered yes to the question of "have you been doing US tax returns" and therefore been refused relinquishment. It seems that if you have been completing US tax returns, then that is an admission that you considered yourself to still be a US citizen after you became a Canadian citizen. Then it would be hard to claim relinquishment.


----------



## pwdunn

greyowl said:


> I am curious, if anyone who has completed the relinquishment questionnaire has answered yes to the question of "have you been doing US tax returns" and therefore been refused relinquishment. It seems that if you have been completing US tax returns, then that is an admission that you considered yourself to still be a US citizen after you became a Canadian citizen. Then it would be hard to claim relinquishment.


US source income may be a reason to file. For example, you relinquish but you own a rental property in the United States for which you must file a 1040. This has no bearing on citizenship. Yet I would be cautious. If the only reason to file is to maintain a citizenship relationship with the United States, then it undermines your claim to have relinquished. This is the point of the following post:

From the archive: Did you relinquish? Here are some proofs that the State Department uses | The Isaac Brock Society

The reason why Baird files the five zero returns after informing the US Consulate of a relinquishing act in 1969 is to show: no tax is owing, not a citizen, so leave me the hell alone. This is not, by any reasonable standard, a signalling a desire to remain a US citizen. But I do not think that the United States is reasonable, but desperate. Desperate to find taxes from anyone but the democrat voters who put these clowns into office. Because once you make them pay taxes, then there will be rioting in the street.


----------



## greyowl

If you became a Canadian before 1995 with the intent of relinquishing and go through the process of getting a CLN recently, would it be legitimate to simply not file any US tax returns nor Exit Tax forms since you have not been a US citizen?


----------



## johnpg

greyowl said:


> If you became a Canadian before 1995 with the intent of relinquishing and go through the process of getting a CLN recently, would it be legitimate to simply not file any US tax returns nor Exit Tax forms since you have not been a US citizen?


That's exactly what I would like to know as well.


----------



## pwdunn

greyowl said:


> If you became a Canadian before 1995 with the intent of relinquishing and go through the process of getting a CLN recently, would it be legitimate to simply not file any US tax returns nor Exit Tax forms since you have not been a US citizen?


I think so. But who am I? The guy who is going to give you a hassle at the border?

I believe it is possible to get the CLN without filing any other paper work. Just go to a consulate, tell them you relinquished in such and such year, get them to send you a CLN and forget about taxes. If they acknowledge that your relinquishing act occurred before Feb 6, 1995, you have what I would consider an _open shut and shut_ case for why you never ever filed a tax return or an FBAR in years following your date of relinquishment. Everything else is needless fretting.

But the only risk if you do not go into the Consulate to try and obtain a CLN is this: you travel to or through the US, and they refuse entry or harass you to get a US passport because of your US birthplace. The risk of filing--especially FBAR--is far greater, because you are actually giving them the information that they need to assess fines to you (of course the Canadian government won't collect them, but that doesn't protect US based assets that you may have). We need to inform everybody we know not to give into this harassment. We need those who historically relinquished their US citizenship to know that they should never under any circumstances get a US passport.


----------



## Guest

PetrosResearch said:


> We need those who historically relinquished their US citizenship to know that they should never under any circumstances get a US passport.


Nor should they do anything else listed under question 13 of form DS-4079 (Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Nationality) unless they have a compelling and extenuating reason for doing so.

And yes, do note that under question 13 you are asked whether you have been filing US tax returns and IF YES, PLEASE EXPLAIN (NOT if no, please explain). So State is tacitly admitting that filing tax returns to the IRS would be contrary to relinquishment of US nationality and undercuts your relinquishment claim. But then, as we all know, on Form 8854 instructions IRS creates a Catch 22 by claiming (ex post facto in any relinquishment prior to 1996 I believe is the year, if not maybe 1994 but no earlier) that your expatriation date "for tax purposes" is when you tell State about your expatriating act, not when you actually committed the act, regardless of what date State puts on your CLN.

However I think a careful reading of the instructions on 8854 supports your submitting five years of tax returns and FBARs AFTER getting your CLN and before or at the same time as submitting your 8854, in order to be able to certify on the 8854 that you have complied with tax-filing requirements.

Zeroing out the five years of tax liability on form 8854 without filing returns might, at least in IRS eyes, get you into big trouble expat-tax-wise because from their standpoint I suspect they'd say you haven't complied with requirements if you haven't filed the returns. Whether the resulting expat tax they'd hit you with is enforceable in Canada is a good question (note at least in IRS eyes it's a tax not a penalty and hence MAYBE -- see a CANADIAN lawyer on this -- is enforceable in Canada under the tax treaty). I suspect until a case comes forward to a Canadian court or a Canadian tax tribunal under the Tax Treaty, or unless there is already jurisprudence on this, we aren't going to know for certain what happens. (Canadian residents are entitled to have appeals against tax claims under the treaty heard IN CANADA though the tribunal may have a US rep on it, but I'd argue for impartiality the case should be before a Canadian non-dual-citizen federal judge and not a tribunal containing an IRS person or an arbitrator approved by the IRS.)

Particularly if you ever want to cross the border into the US again, I strongly recommend getting good legal advice on these issues before filing any tax forms or any of State's forms either. Yes legal advice costs money, but it won't cost nearly as much as what IRS could take from you if they could enforce their penalties or exit tax on you.

With all respect to other posters (and moderators) on this forum, none of us (including me) is a lawyer and our opinions about what "ought" to happen or what is "likely" to happen aren't worth much and are no basis for making a major decision like this. I'm not sure that a lawyer can give a definitive answer either, absent a court decision, but at minimum I'd want to know what a lawyer I trust would say about these things, even if I didn't like what I heard or the answer was "gosh I really don't know" at least that is information on which to base how I'd proceed ...

Unless you're not risk averse and want to be the test case ...


----------



## pwdunn

Schubert said:


> However I think a careful reading of the instructions on 8854 supports your submitting five years of tax returns and FBARs AFTER getting your CLN and before or at the same time as submitting your 8854, in order to be able to certify on the 8854 that you have complied with tax-filing requirements.
> 
> Zeroing out the five years of tax liability on form 8854 without filing returns might, at least in IRS eyes, get you into big trouble expat-tax-wise because from their standpoint I suspect they'd say you haven't complied with requirements if you haven't filed the returns. Whether the resulting expat tax they'd hit you with is enforceable in Canada is a good question (note at least in IRS eyes it's a tax not a penalty and hence MAYBE -- see a CANADIAN lawyer on this -- is enforceable in Canada under the tax treaty). I suspect until a case comes forward to a Canadian court or a Canadian tax tribunal under the Tax Treaty, or unless there is already jurisprudence on this, we aren't going to know for certain what happens. (Canadian residents are entitled to have appeals against tax claims under the treaty heard IN CANADA though the tribunal may have a US rep on it, but I'd argue for impartiality the case should be before a Canadian non-dual-citizen federal judge and not a tribunal containing an IRS person or an arbitrator approved by the IRS.)
> 
> Particularly if you ever want to cross the border into the US again, I strongly recommend getting good legal advice on these issues before filing any tax forms or any of State's forms either. Yes legal advice costs money, but it won't cost nearly as much as what IRS could take from you if they could enforce their penalties or exit tax on you.
> 
> With all respect to other posters (and moderators) on this forum, none of us (including me) is a lawyer and our opinions about what "ought" to happen or what is "likely" to happen aren't worth much and are no basis for making a major decision like this. I'm not sure that a lawyer can give a definitive answer either, absent a court decision, but at minimum I'd want to know what a lawyer I trust would say about these things, even if I didn't like what I heard or the answer was "gosh I really don't know" at least that is information on which to base how I'd proceed ...
> 
> Unless you're not risk averse and want to be the test case ...


Hi Schubert: well we may just need a few test cases so that the rest of us don't remain victims of this vicious system. What I'm not sure about is why you feel it necessary to file an 8854 at all. It is an intrusion and unconstitutional (in my opinion--for what that's worth). I may not do one; and I just relinquished in February. But in your case, the relinquishment happened years before the filing requirement became mandatory. I would think that to cross the border the only thing a person needs who relinquished before February 5, 1995, is the actual CLN, which is issued by the State Department, not the IRS. Filing an 8854 now would be on the basis of an ex post facto requirement.

I mean this is one of the reasons why I think we need a book that sorts this mess out. We are all becoming victims to the United States. I think that we need the government of Canada to do something about all the folks out there who the IRS has scared the hell out. This problem is way too big for us little folks.

Please read the following post at hodgen.com: Anonymous story from an ex-citizen | Hodgen Law Group, PC | Hodgen Law Group, PC

The responses are from legal types, Hodgen himself especially: 
Sally
April 11, 2011 | 12:44 pm

Would the IRS know that citizen John Doe of country X used to be citizen John Doe of the US? Would the IRS know that the self-same John Doe is on his way and be able to induce Homeland Security to nab him at the border, merely on the suspicion that he might not have submitted FBARs? Wouldn’t there have to be some sort of legal action first?

And even if they could do it, would they bother for small fry?

Phil
April 11, 2011 | 12:52 pm

Sally,

My guess is that right now the government’s ability to share information (IRS to immigration dude at the airport) is not Orwellian. Yet. So would they flag him and pull him aside? Don’t know.

Second point — at what point does the U.S. government have the power to grab someone prior to filing charges? My guess is that unless the Department of Justice actually filed criminal charges under Title 31 (the Bank Secrecy Act, which is the source of the FBAR form), that power doesn’t exist. Yet. Except for unlimited circumstances when the President feels like it because, well, you LOOK like a terrorist, don’t you?

Third. If the IRS just assesses a bunch of penalties and this ex-citizen purportedly owes the government a bunch of money, can the U.S. government throw him in prison for failure to file? I don’t think we have a debtor’s prison in the United States. Yet.

But this is all really, really stupid anyway. Why should someone living an ordinary life have such a threat hanging over him for failure to file a piece of paper?

Phil

Asher Rubinstein
April 11, 2011 | 8:13 pm

There are various examples of people being detained by U.S. law enforcement while on layover in a US airport. In personam jurisdiction.

I know of one case where a US person was questioned at a US airport in connection with a matrimonial case pending against him; the Customs agent’s computer showed that there was a judgment against the US person for child support. This was a civil proceeding, in a state court, that made its way to a federal database and triggered scrutiny at the airport.

But in these cases, the common thread is a pre-existing judicial proceeding, i.e., a record, which makes its way onto the Customs computers. Will Ex-Citizen be nabbed at the airport when his plane lands prior to Christmas – that’s the issue. I’m not aware that failure to file an FBAR results in an alert to the border agents.​
Then, also the penalties for failure to file 8854 are going to be civil penalties, and to my knowledge, civil penalities will not result in a person being nabbed at the border.


----------



## Baird68

PetrosResearch said:


> Hi Schubert: well we may just need a few test cases so that the rest of us don't remain victims of this vicious system. What I'm not sure about is why you feel it necessary to file an 8854 at all. It is an intrusion and unconstitutional (in my opinion--for what that's worth). I may not do one; and I just relinquished in February. But in your case, the relinquishment happened years before the filing requirement became mandatory. I would think that to cross the border the only thing a person needs who relinquished before February 5, 1995, is the actual CLN, which is issued by the State Department, not the IRS. Filing an 8854 now would be on the basis of an ex post facto requirement.
> 
> I mean this is one of the reasons why I think we need a book that sorts this mess out. We are all becoming victims to the United States. I think that we need the government of Canada to do something about all the folks out there who the IRS has scared the hell out. This problem is way too big for us little folks...
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On DS-4079, question 13e: Do you file U.S. income or other tax returns? If yes please explain. I answered NO
> 
> 
> On the Statement of Understanding Concerning Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S, Citizenship (81607) statement 10 says:
> My renunciation/relinquishment may not exempt me from United States income taxation. With regard to United States taxation consequences, I understand that I must contact the United States Internal Revenue Service. Further, I understand that if my renunciation of United States citizenship is determined by the United States Attorney General to be motivated by tax avoidance purposes, I will be found excludable from the United States under Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended.
> 
> I filed 5 years of taxes with no amount owing and 5 years of FBARs. My thoughts were, play it safe. If they fine me, I'll never cross the border and never spend another nickle in the States again. Mr. Flaherty said Canada will not be collecting fines. Also, I have no U.S. investments so they won't be able to withhold money from me. My accountant said they are looking for tax cheats and clearly I'm not one of them. Yes, they'll know my bank account and trading account information. However, I'll will hopefully have my CLN next year and I will be certifiably 100% Canadian with a U.S. seal of approval. I don't think anyone has a clear picture of what is going to happen. We just need to keep in touch on this forum to ensure we share information as it happens. We are the leading edge, accidental U.S. persons, who will have much first hand experience to share with others in the future.


----------



## Canadian Guy

I have been looking at the Expatriation Act of 1868, in the preamble it states that "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". I think that this act has been mentioned on this forum before.

Just what does it mean to expatriate. My non legal opinion is that in the case of this act the word "expatriate" does not just mean to give up ones citizenship, but also means that you no longer have *any obligations* to your former state. The act was intended to protect Americans from any obligations to their former homeland such as military service, so it's purpose was more than just a right to give up citizenship, it was to sever all ties with the former state.

I therefore think that the the Expatriation Act of 1868 protects me from all obligations to the United States including tax on or after the date that will be on my CLN when I relinquish.

It looks like the courts have taken this act very seriously in the past, perhaps it is the use of the word "right" although this is not a constitutional right.

Could this law trump the IRS?


----------



## pwdunn

Canadian Guy said:


> I have been looking at the Expatriation Act of 1868, in the preamble it states that "the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". I think that this act has been mentioned on this forum before.
> 
> Just what does it mean to expatriate. My non legal opinion is that in the case of this act the word "expatriate" does not just mean to give up ones citizenship, but also means that you no longer have *any obligations* to your former state. The act was intended to protect Americans from any obligations to their former homeland such as military service, so it's purpose was more than just a right to give up citizenship, it was to sever all ties with the former state.
> 
> I therefore think that the the Expatriation Act of 1868 protects me from all obligations to the United States including tax on or after the date that will be on my CLN when I relinquish.
> 
> It looks like the courts have taken this act very seriously in the past, perhaps it is the use of the word "right" although this is not a constitutional right.
> 
> Could this law trump the IRS?


I've done a post on this subject in which I argue that later laws contradict both 1868 law and the Declaration of Independence on which the wording of the 1868 law is based. The later laws have flimisier basis in law--the need to retaliate against former citizens, while the earlier law establishes with greater explicitness what the right of expatriation as a fundamental right. Is it right to put barriers in front of the right to expatriation? That's like asking someone to pay $200 before allowing that person to vote. If you cannot expatriate, you are a slave to your country, just as assuredly as if someone owned a deed to your person, like the title deed to car or a house.

And it is a constitutional right: consider the 9th amendment, which surely establishes as constitutional those rights which are reserved by the people and established as a matter of principle at the founding of the nation in the Declaration of Independence, the right to expatriate from a tyrannical power.

http://*****************.com/2011/1...tablishes-a-right-to-unilateral-expatriation/


----------



## Canadian Guy

[QUOTE
And it is a constitutional right: consider the 9th amendment, which surely establishes as constitutional those rights which are reserved by the people and established as a matter of principle at the founding of the nation in the Declaration of Independence, the right to expatriate from a tyrannical power.[/QUOTE]

I had a look at your link, and I have to say that I am in complete agreement with what you say.

If I understand, the 9th amendment dates to 1791. When the Expatriation Act of 1868 was written and the word "right" was used in that act, the 9th amendment would mean expatriation is a right just as strong as rights specifically enumerated in the constitution. Sounds to me like this may have been the intent when the word right was used.


----------



## Ladyhawk

Canadian Guy said:


> [QUOTE
> And it is a constitutional right: consider the 9th amendment, which surely establishes as constitutional those rights which are reserved by the people and established as a matter of principle at the founding of the nation in the Declaration of Independence, the right to expatriate from a tyrannical power.


[QUOTE _I had a look at your link, and I have to say that I am in complete agreement with what you say.

If I understand, the 9th amendment dates to 1791. When the Expatriation Act of 1868 was written and the word "right" was used in that act, the 9th amendment would mean expatriation is a right just as strong as rights specifically enumerated in the constitution. Sounds to me like this may have been the intent when the word right was used.[_/QUOTE]

Yes the rights reserved to the people were meant to be as strong as the enumerated ones. Unfortunately the Bill of Rights has had exactly the effect that many of the Founders feared: that if you enumerate some of the rights but not all (and who could even think of them all), the enumerated rights in time will come to be considered the ONLY rights we have, despite the wording of the 9th Amendment. 

This is what has been happening. I clearly remember when Robert Bork was being considered for the Supreme Court and he was asked in a roundabout way his opinion of abortion. At that time abortion rights were sometimes covered under "privacy rights" and Bork claimed that since the Constitution does not explicitly enumerate a right to privacy, there is no such thing. That attitude is hard to overcome especially if there are SCOTUS decisions that do not recognize a non-enumerated right.
.


----------



## Canadian Guy

I am including a link on Expatriation that some my find useful.

SURVEY OF THE LAW OF EXPATRIATION

in it it notes that: "As the Supreme Court has noted, such acts of Congress "are to be read in the light of [Congress's 1868] declaration of policy favoring freedom of expatriation which stands unrepealed."

The Immigration and Nationality Act list a number of ways that one can relinquish citizenship. But I ask what the original purpose of this list was. Was it a list of ways that I may exercise my "natural and inherent right" to expatriate, or was it a list of ways that the government could deny citizenship to me. I think that at least until various parts of the act were challenged in court the sole purpose of the listed relinquishing acts were to deny citizenship. The only relinquishing act that is in line with the 1868 law is to actually renounce.

Now the question: is a persons natural and inherent right to expatriate limited to only to the listed expatriating acts. Might there not be other actions taken by a person not specifically listed that if done voluntarily that would be also expatriating?


----------



## pwdunn

Canadian Guy said:


> I am including a link on Expatriation that some my find useful.
> 
> SURVEY OF THE LAW OF EXPATRIATION
> 
> in it it notes that: "As the Supreme Court has noted, such acts of Congress "are to be read in the light of [Congress's 1868] declaration of policy favoring freedom of expatriation which stands unrepealed."
> 
> The Immigration and Nationality Act list a number of ways that one can relinquish citizenship. But I ask what the original purpose of this list was. Was it a list of ways that I may exercise my "natural and inherent right" to expatriate, or was it a list of ways that the government could deny citizenship to me. I think that at least until various parts of the act were challenged in court the sole purpose of the listed relinquishing acts were to deny citizenship. The only relinquishing act that is in line with the 1868 law is to actually renounce.
> 
> Now the question: is a persons natural and inherent right to expatriate limited to only to the listed expatriating acts. Might there not be other actions taken by a person not specifically listed that if done voluntarily that would be also expatriating?


The list requires in most cases the volition of person relinquishing citizen, so as it stands now, the list is both to list a number of ways a person can relinquish, and the ways a person can be denied citizenship. I also think the list is comprehensive. Can you think of another relinquishing act that shows intent?

The 1868 law was passed to protect Naturalized Americans from their former countries--particularly if those people went to their former country; the 1868 law urged the old country to treat these new Americans as though they were born in America.


----------



## Canadian Guy

PetrosResearch said:


> The list requires in most cases the volition of person relinquishing citizen, so as it stands now, the list is both to list a number of ways a person can relinquish, and the ways a person can be denied citizenship. I also think the list is comprehensive. Can you think of another relinquishing act that shows intent?
> 
> The 1868 law was passed to protect Naturalized Americans from their former countries--particularly if those people went to their former country; the 1868 law urged the old country to treat these new Americans as though they were born in America.


In my case I have lived only in Canada since I was a small child. US citizenship was something I never asked for, I have no ties to the United States so I have lived all my adult life and most of my childhood as a Canadian. Also in my case I did commit a relinquishing act so have been of the opinion that I was no longer a US citizen. I did not know that there was a process to formally renounce until a few months ago. I think that living my entire adult life in Canada as a Canadian Citizen and never seeking or claiming the benefits of US citizenship is enough to establish my intent to be Canadian and not American. Also when crossing the border I identify myself only as a Canadian. I was asked where I was born once many years ago at the border, where I answered "in the United States" I was told then I was an American. When I said no I was not! the border guard found it hard to believe that someone would actually choose not to be American.

Other people may have there own reasons, and until a particular reason is challenged in court we will never know.

US citizenship seems to operate like the cable TV companies did years ago. They would add new and expensive specialty channels to your service and not tell you. When/if you saw them on the bill, it was up to you to call and cancel them. US citizenship is something that I never asked for and now out of the blue taxes and FBARS are showing up on the bill until I cancel my service.


----------



## Baird68

Canadian Guy said:


> In my case I have lived only in Canada since I was a small child. US citizenship was something I never asked for, I have no ties to the United States so I have lived all my adult life and most of my childhood as a Canadian. Also in my case I did commit a relinquishing act so have been of the opinion that I was no longer a US citizen. I did not know that there was a process to formally renounce until a few months ago. I think that living my entire adult life in Canada as a Canadian Citizen and never seeking or claiming the benefits of US citizenship is enough to establish my intent to be Canadian and not American. Also when crossing the border I identify myself only as a Canadian. I was asked where I was born once many years ago at the border, where I answered "in the United States" I was told then I was an American. When I said no I was not! the border guard found it hard to believe that someone would actually choose not to be American.
> 
> Other people may have there own reasons, and until a particular reason is challenged in court we will never know.
> 
> US citizenship seems to operate like the cable TV companies did years ago. They would add new and expensive specialty channels to your service and not tell you. When/if you saw them on the bill, it was up to you to call and cancel them. US citizenship is something that I never asked for and now out of the blue taxes and FBARS are showing up on the bill until I cancel my service.


Well said. My sentiments exactly!


----------



## Canadian Guy

Lovecheese said:


> Has anyone heard if you have to pick up your CLN in person or do they mail it to your address?


I don't know if this has been answered yet:

7 FAM 1200 LOSS AND RESTORATION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP

Foreign Affairs Manual #1260 says by registered mail.


----------



## Peg

Canadian Guy said:


> I don't know if this has been answered yet:
> 
> 7 FAM 1200 LOSS AND RESTORATION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP
> 
> Foreign Affairs Manual #1260 says by registered mail.


The reference to registered mail is on Page 8.

Also, it specifically says 2 copies of documents which makes me think some consulates have been kind in doing 3 to give the renunciant one copy.


----------

