# On Southern Mexico



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Just for the record, we live about 1/2 the year in Jalisco on Lake Chapala and about 1/2 the year in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands. While in Chiapas, we often travel to other parts of Southern Mexico, primarily throughout the state of Chiapas and to Oaxaca State and the Yucatan Peninsula. 

I will define Southern Mexico as that area defined by the state border of Oaxaca south and Veracruz state from about Veracruz City south. I include the Yucatan Peninsula in its entirety even though most of the northern part of the peninsula is geographically in line with places like Guadalajara. That´s because, while the northern Yucatan Peninsula is not technically in Southern Mexico, it is culturally southern Mexican in point of fact. I will discuss that issue later if anyone is interested.

I am posting this comment to inform those of you still unfamiliar with Southern Mexico of certain infrastructural improvements in that region and providing access to that region that make it more accessable and an easy place to move about and visit its many man-made and environmental treasures.

In summary, the opening of the new Arco Norte Freeway from Atlacomulco, Edomex to Puebla, Puebla has provided access from northern and north central Mexico with no need to transit through the Mexico City megalopolis with its infamously crooked transit cops and, at times, its mind-bending traffic jams. For years after we built a second home in Chiapas and traveled frequently between Lake Chapala and San Cristóbal de Las Casas, we had to drive right though the heart of Mexico City to get from Toluca to Puebla and. while that was quite an adventure each time we made it through the capital without being hit up for mordida or having come upon the traffic jam from hell, we can report that the Arco Norte that skirts the north of the city is a gift of the gods and has made the journey between north and south a genuine pleasure.

In addition, the opening of new toll roads throughout Southern Mexico has made it much easier to get about from the Pacific to the Gulf and the Caribbean as well as the borders with Guatemala and Belize. I am going to talk about these wonderful improvements in this most beautiful land graced with spectacular mountains, fabulous beaches, extraordinary jungles and fascinating indigenous cultures but for now all this enthusiasm has me exhausted so I´ll continue later.

Any specific questions, yáll?


----------



## joelpb (Nov 23, 2009)

no questions but a little story. my wife has relatives in oxaca and when she was about
18 she took a trip with one of her uncles to that area. in one of the little villages she
found out how they talk to the other little village in the are. they had no phones so they
put a loud speaker on tall building and when they wanted to say something to some
one in the village they got on the louder speaker and said it. she has a lot of good
stories from that time. people are really poor. all the girles wanted all of her clothes.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

They still use the same system in one of the village we were in last week. We wanted to buy blouses and the announcement was made on the loud speaker. Women came as far as 2 kms away to try to sell the blouses they make.
They would not want western clothes except to sell them though, they al wear their traditional costumes that they value more than our clothes except of course for the extra cash. they make when they sell them.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Hound Dog said:


> They still use the same system in one of the village we were in last week. We wanted to buy blouses and the announcement was made on the loud speaker. Women came as far as 2 kms away to try to sell the blouses they make.
> They would not want western clothes except to sell them though, they al wear their traditional costumes that they value more than our clothes except of course for the extra cash. they make when they sell them.


Just for the record; that posting was made not by Dawg but Dawgette who is not originally from the U.S. but France and who is supposed to sign postings she makes as "Brigitte". It´s not that Dawg disagrees with anything she said in the post and, frankly, I am pleased that she contributed. 

Since she brought up the fact that we just returned from Chiapas to Lake Chapala and were shopping around for blouses in indigenous villages near San Cristóbal de Las Casas, let me remind those readers who may not know that the annual Feria Maestros del Arte will be held in Chapala from November 18th through the 20th near that city´s malecon on the lake. A great event and we will have six artisans from Chiapas in attendence selling their wonderful wares as well as artisans from many other parts of Mexico. This has grown into a fine event and Chapala on the lakeshore is a beautiful place to visit. At least for a while, Dawg and Dawgette will be hanging around and we hope to meet those of you who come to Chapala to support these superb artisans who are among this country´s great treasures.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Since you've been all over the region, would you name all the places you feel are worth investigating as a place to live? Without going into details, just a list as a starting point for research and eventually visiting. Rank them if you like, but only include those places that you feel you'd enjoy living in. A list like that would be extremely helpful! And probably start a few conversations/arguments.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

vantexan said:


> Since you've been all over the region, would you name all the places you feel are worth investigating as a place to live? Without going into details, just a list as a starting point for research and eventually visiting. Rank them if you like, but only include those places that you feel you'd enjoy living in. A list like that would be extremely helpful! And probably start a few conversations/arguments.


Without regard to climate and proficiency in Spanish and leaving out San Cristóbal de Las Casas because that high mountain town is not for everyone and bearing in mind we are not beach people - what a fun idea:

In no order of importance but just as they enter my mind:

Oaxaca City
Mérida
Boca del Rio
Bacalar
Orizaba
Chiapa de Corzo
Tuxtla Gutierrez
Huatulco
Tehuantepec
Comitan
The Tuxtlas (Veracruz State)
Tlacotalpan
Puerto Morelos 
Izamal
Palenque
Puerto Escondido
Isla Holbox

Maybe I can think of some other burgs worth exploring but for now my peabrain is exhausted.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

That's terrific, thanks! Enjoyed your Chiapa de Corzo post and think with it's proximity to Tuxtla Gutierrez might be an ideal place to live, assuming it's not too hot there.


----------



## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> In addition, the opening of new toll roads throughout Southern Mexico


Where, Dog?


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Chiapa de Corzo and Tuxtla are hot as hell, granted not as hot as Tapachula and they do have some nice days when a cold front move in,but do not kid yourself anyplace at 500 m is hot.
In my opinion you are wasting your time looking at a map to find the perfect place. First you have to decide what is important to you and then look for places that may fit.
If climate is important look at the altitude and also the influence of the Gulf or Pacific. For us the perfect altitude is between 1500 and 1800 m higher gets cold lower is hot .
The atitude gets modified by the influence from the Gulf or Pacific or lack of. Lower or higher maybe fine if it is not too wet and so on.
I hate heat and humidity so for me may of the places mentioned by my husband right off the bat no matter how wonderful and fine some of the places are.
I love Merida, would not live there but many people do. Nice city, good expat base etc..but the heat some season is awful in my opinion.
Izamal is a pretty small town with a similar climate as Merida but less cement.
Tehuantepec is fun to visit but no expat and awful climate.
Orizaba and COrdoba are in a very pretty area but have lots of fog and miserable weather in December , January as the cold front hits the warm air. Cold fog, not my idea of wonderful. Some expats but not many and so on.
Nobody can tell what you would like, you have to make your list of priorities and look for those,
Boca del RIo is very nice (Security apart) but hot , humid and expensive and so on...
Brigitte

There is NO perfect place . If you speak good Spanish you will have more choices l. Except for Comitan none of the places on the list have a decent climate in my book. If climate is not a priority then your choices become much better as well.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

dongringo:

I know you live in Catemaco which I included as part of Southern Mexico but I was speaking of other areas where new toll roads have recenty opened or are in the design stage or under construction at present and will soon open. 

Our trip between Lake Chapala and San Cristóbal has been reduced by two hours more or less by the fabulous new Arco Norte Autopista with the most direct route being through Morelia, Puebla City, Veracruz State and Tuxtla Gutierrez. The Arco Norte also significantly improves our access to Oaxaca City through Puebla City on the north and, soon to be completed, the Oaxaca City to the Isthmus of Tenhuantepec and southeast to Arriaga, Chiapas where one picks up the new autoppista from Tuxtla Gutierrez to the Pacific Coast. When the Oaxaca City-Tehuanatepec autopista opens, it will make sense for us to drive from Lake Chapala to San Cristóbal via Puebla City, Oaxaca City, Tehuantepec, Arriaga and Tuxtla Gutierrez. That route will be about 100 kilometers longer than the Veracruz route but, becuase of the Arc Norte, one will be able to drive from Lake Chapala to Oaxaca City in one day or, I would guess, about eleven hours - maybe twelve. 

Now that the new Tuxtla Gutierrez- Arriaga Autopista is open, access to Chiapas´ and Oaxaca´s Pacific Coast from Tuxtla is a a breeze. We can now make it from San Cristóbal to the beaxch at Puerto Arista in less than four hours and all the way down to Tapachula and Guatemale in record time over very good roads all the way to Tapachula. 

In the design stages is a new autopista from just outside San Cristóbal to Palenque through Ocosingo which will cut the driving time between those two cities from the present five hours over 300 topes to about two hours non-stop which will also provide high-speed access to such delights as Toniná, Aqua Azul, Misol Ha and Aqua Clara and much faster access to places such as Bonampak and Yaxchilan. At present the access through indigenous lands is causing some controvery. especially with certain Zapatista communities along the way but, while this will delay the project, they will work it out as thjey almost always do.

My darlin´ wife has taken me to task for my earlier list of interesting cities in Southern Mexico since she only likes the climate down south in highland regions. She has only agreed with my recommendation of Comitan and Oaxaca City but that´s because most of those other places I listed have hot, steamy climates and, since the 1970s when she and I lived for a year on the Alabama Gulf Coast, she has not found much to like about hot, steamy climates.


----------



## DNP (May 3, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> dongringo:
> 
> I know you live in Catemaco which I included as part of Southern Mexico but I was speaking of other areas where new toll roads have recenty opened or are in the design stage or under construction at present and will soon open.
> 
> ...


Great info, Dog. Would like to learn more about Comitan. Have done my research, but come up with ver little. If you know of any any sites, even blogs, where I can learn more, I would greatly appreciate it.

I spent some time in Chiapas a few years ago and loved the area. I'm a native English speaker, but am also bilingual English/Spanish. Thanks.

WashDC/SMA


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I have never read much about Comitan except that it is the birth place of Dr. Belisario Dominguez. It has a colonial center is mostly a commercial center for the area. I know it has a language school where foreigners teach English probably to locals and a couple of small museums.
If you ask many people in Chiapas what is their favorite place they will tell you Comitan. They think that there is more going on there than in San Cristobal which is a much more touristy place with no much else , they also think the climate there sucks. 
It is a couple of hours from the border with Guatemala and I believe the municipality is within 50km from the border therefore foreigners need a trust to buy there. The area is surrounded by beautiful countryside like the lakes of Montebello and the sugarcane area around the water fall of el Chifflon. It is 2 long hours from San Cristobal and 3 hours from Tuxtla on the same road. There is another shorter road to Tuxtla via Venustiano Carranza but the road was pretty bad last time I took it.
It is also surrounded by many indigenous villages if that is of any interest to you. La Margaritas is a Tojolabal area you are not far from Tzeltal villages and some Tzotziles. Motozintla area is about 2 to 3 hours from there and Tapachula 5 hours. 
I like the area but one day I went into the church with a friend and we found out that the priest there was from Guadalajara so we started talking to him and he seriously dislike the area which he called backwards full of ignorant and supersticious people so it probably is not all rosy there either.
Brigitte


----------



## DNP (May 3, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> I have never read much about Comitan except that it is the birth place of Dr. Belisario Dominguez. It has a colonial center is mostly a commercial center for the area. I know it has a language school where foreigners teach English probably to locals and a couple of small museums.
> If you ask many people in Chiapas what is their favorite place they will tell you Comitan. They think that there is more going on there than in San Cristobal which is a much more touristy place with no much else , they also think the climate there sucks.
> It is a couple of hours from the border with Guatemala and I believe the municipality is within 50km from the border therefore foreigners need a trust to buy there. The area is surrounded by beautiful countryside like the lakes of Montebello and the sugarcane area around the water fall of el Chifflon. It is 2 long hours from San Cristobal and 3 hours from Tuxtla on the same road. There is another shorter road to Tuxtla via Venustiano Carranza but the road was pretty bad last time I took it.
> It is also surrounded by many indigenous villages if that is of any interest to you. La Margaritas is a Tojolabal area you are not far from Tzeltal villages and some Tzotziles. Motozintla area is about 2 to 3 hours from there and Tapachula 5 hours.
> ...


Thanks. Definitely on my list of places to visit this year!

WashDC/SMA


----------



## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> dongringo:
> soon to be completed, the Oaxaca City to the Isthmus of Tenhuantepec.


Any idea when that will be ready? It'll wipe out 1/3 of the traffic through Veracruz.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

DNP said:


> Great info, Dog. Would like to learn more about Comitan. Have done my research, but come up with ver little. If you know of any any sites, even blogs, where I can learn more, I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> I spent some time in Chiapas a few years ago and loved the area. I'm a native English speaker, but am also bilingual English/Spanish. Thanks.
> 
> WashDC/SMA



One good source is YouTube. There's a short, professionally done video on Comitan that quickly highlights the area attractions. Have watched it numerous times.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> ...In my opinion you are wasting your time looking at a map to find the perfect place. First you have to decide what is important to you and then look for places that may fit...Nobody can tell what you would like, you have to make your list of priorities and look for those...
> Brigitte
> 
> There is NO perfect place . If you speak good Spanish you will have more choices l. Except for Comitan none of the places on the list have a decent climate in my book. If climate is not a priority then your choices become much better as well.


Hi Brigette, I've read many of your posts on Mexico Connect and you and Hound Dog are possibly the foremost American experts on southern Mexico posting regularly on the Internet. How could I not try to pick your brains a little, LOL? Not expecting a perfect place, and believe me you are preaching to the choir about heat and humidity. I've lived in some of the hottest places in the U.S., and having lived in the U.S. Southwest I'm very familiar with the benefits of altitude.

I have a little list of my own going, with Oaxaca at the top. I do like Comitan very much, but I think it may be too isolated for me. I've lived in similar situations in the Rockies, and it can feel like being on an island. I was surprised that he included hot and humid places, but figured he liked them enough that their plusses outweighed the heat.

No one can tell me what I like, but some good recommendations to check out certainly helps. Pretty familiar with the favorites of central and coastal Mexico, but southern Mexico outside of the Yucatan and Oaxaca City is still a place to pass through on the way to Guatemala for most travelers. But it's where I want to be and I appreciate the good info you've posted on the subject here and elsewhere. 
Regards, Wade


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah, Wade, Brigitte attacked me for suggesting some of those towns but, frankly, Dawg is not opposed to hot and humid places having been born and raised in South Alabama. I suppose, to be brutally honest about it, I would have chosen to live in certain coastal or near-coastal places along the Mexican Gulf or Caribbean Coasts if it weren´t for Brigitte´s aversion to living in hot coastal climates. Having someone to embrace is more important than having someplace to embrace.

I agree with you that Comitan is an isolated and liimited city so, if it were me and I was determined to be in a highland city in Southern Mexico with a more-or-less pleasant climate, I would go for Oaxaca City as well. Were I not concerned about heat and humidity, perhaps Mérida or even Veracruz City. Maybe even Cartagena, Colombia or Havana, Cuba but now I´m entering the realm of dreams. 

Good luck to you in finding that perfect place. Dawg´s perfect place does not actually exist but if it did it would be on the Adriatic with a fine villa on the sea where it never gets too cold nor too hot and there is always a breeze blowing through rustling palm trees and is surrounded by crystal clear waters with a significant surf and vineyards and olive tree orchards and backed by magnificent snow-covered mountain peaks with nearby vegetable gardens tended by servile employees and with no one near me except Brigitte but, within an hour´s drive, a magnificent Paris-like city of splendid sophisitication with great seafood restaurants and steakhouses serving the finest beef and, since I am an Alabama boy, the best hickory smoked pulled pork BBQ on Earth.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

dongringo said:


> Any idea when that will be ready? It'll wipe out 1/3 of the traffic through Veracruz.


No I don´t know when the autopista from Tehuantepec to Oaxaca City will be finished but I anticipate that that will be soon. We return to Chiapas in January and return once again to Chapala in April. When that road is opened, I will be the first to let you know.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

vantexan said:


> Hi Brigette, I've read many of your posts on Mexico Connect and you and Hound Dog are possibly the foremost American experts on southern Mexico posting regularly on the Internet. How could I not try to pick your brains a little, LOL? Not expecting a perfect place, and believe me you are preaching to the choir about heat and humidity. I've lived in some of the hottest places in the U.S., and having lived in the U.S. Southwest I'm very familiar with the benefits of altitude.
> 
> I have a little list of my own going, with Oaxaca at the top. I do like Comitan very much, but I think it may be too isolated for me. I've lived in similar situations in the Rockies, and it can feel like being on an island. I was surprised that he included hot and humid places, but figured he liked them enough that their plusses outweighed the heat.
> 
> ...


Oaxaca is a wonderful state and city. The climate in the city and around it is pleasant, can be hot but it is dry same with the cold. There is an expat community if you feel more comfortable around and more cultural activities that you would have anywhere in Chiapas. 
It all depends what you are looking for. In Oaxaca you can live in a small town or a village around the city and go to the city relatively quickly if that is what you like or live in the city. When the freeway to the Ithmus is finished you will be able to go to a beach in a few hours and the beach there are much nicer than the Chiapas beaches.
If I were to live in only one place, Oaxaca would be my choice but again there is no comparison between the two lifestyles, it all depends on what you feel comfortable with.
Brigitte


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Oaxaca is a wonderful state and city. The climate in the city and around it is pleasant, can be hot but it is dry same with the cold. There is an expat community if you feel more comfortable around and more cultural activities that you would have anywhere in Chiapas.
> It all depends what you are looking for. In Oaxaca you can live in a small town or a village around the city and go to the city relatively quickly if that is what you like or live in the city. When the freeway to the Ithmus is finished you will be able to go to a beach in a few hours and the beach there are much nicer than the Chiapas beaches.
> If I were to live in only one place, Oaxaca would be my choice but again there is no comparison between the two lifestyles, it all depends on what you feel comfortable with.
> Brigitte


Thanks Brigitte, I'm about exhausted with the research, think I'll just head to Oaxaca when the time comes make the most of it. You and Hound Dog have been great help, and I now have many places to take roadtrips to, my favorite hobby. Thanks again!


----------



## DebMer (Dec 31, 2011)

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this post. :clap2: I sometimes find myself speculating on perfection, too. It's nice to dream, isn't it?




Hound Dog said:


> Yeah, Wade, Brigitte attacked me for suggesting some of those towns but, frankly, Dawg is not opposed to hot and humid places having been born and raised in South Alabama. I suppose, to be brutally honest about it, I would have chosen to live in certain coastal or near-coastal places along the Mexican Gulf or Caribbean Coasts if it weren´t for Brigitte´s aversion to living in hot coastal climates. Having someone to embrace is more important than having someplace to embrace.
> 
> I agree with you that Comitan is an isolated and liimited city so, if it were me and I was determined to be in a highland city in Southern Mexico with a more-or-less pleasant climate, I would go for Oaxaca City as well. Were I not concerned about heat and humidity, perhaps Mérida or even Veracruz City. Maybe even Cartagena, Colombia or Havana, Cuba but now I´m entering the realm of dreams.
> 
> Good luck to you in finding that perfect place. Dawg´s perfect place does not actually exist but if it did it would be on the Adriatic with a fine villa on the sea where it never gets too cold nor too hot and there is always a breeze blowing through rustling palm trees and is surrounded by crystal clear waters with a significant surf and vineyards and olive tree orchards and backed by magnificent snow-covered mountain peaks with nearby vegetable gardens tended by servile employees and with no one near me except Brigitte but, within an hour´s drive, a magnificent Paris-like city of splendid sophisitication with great seafood restaurants and steakhouses serving the finest beef and, since I am an Alabama boy, the best hickory smoked pulled pork BBQ on Earth.


----------



## bougainvillea (Jun 4, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> dongringo:
> 
> I know you live in Catemaco which I included as part of Southern Mexico but I was speaking of other areas where new toll roads have recenty opened or are in the design stage or under construction at present and will soon open.
> 
> ...


I haven't driven in Mexico since 2004, so, given your postings about the new freeway.......is there a way to get from Texas to Cuernavaca WITHOUT the horror of going through Mexico City? The last time I did it I became irretrievably lost and made at least two entire loops around the city before having to stop and get a very nice policeman to guide me to the Cuernavaca highway.


----------

