# Has the Job Market improved?



## kulfi (Oct 22, 2012)

Hi all

I have been a regular a visitor of this forum, but posting first time. I am an IT professional living in US, US citizen of Indian origin. I am looking for an opportunity in Middle East preferably in UAE to relocate. I know that Dubai Job market was not that great till recently. I am told by some of my friends that it has improved now and I may land up a job if I come and look there physically.
I would like to know from the folks who are already there and also from people who got job recently if its really worth coming there for a month or 2 to try my luck. I am mainly targeting IT Project Manager or IT Manager roles.

I'll appreciate you replies


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## azahir (Jan 31, 2012)

I am in same boat, try your luck and let me know


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## imac (Oct 14, 2012)

Ive been looking for something similar for a while now.. for this field, there seem to be a lot of competition and not a lot of money. The numbers I see typically seem to be around AED 15,000 - 25,000 per month, but that is all inclusive.

Not a lot, considering NA pay scales.


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## ysayap (May 17, 2012)

I have friends who are currently working in the middle east. They say that there are a lot of job opportunities in the middle east if you are not choosy with regards to the the work that you will do.


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## fcjb1970 (Apr 30, 2010)

kulfi said:


> Hi all
> 
> I have been a regular a visitor of this forum, but posting first time. I am an IT professional living in US, US citizen of Indian origin. I am looking for an opportunity in Middle East preferably in UAE to relocate. I know that Dubai Job market was not that great till recently. I am told by some of my friends that it has improved now and I may land up a job if I come and look there physically.
> I would like to know from the folks who are already there and also from people who got job recently if its really worth coming there for a month or 2 to try my luck. I am mainly targeting IT Project Manager or IT Manager roles.
> ...


These days most of the low and mid level IT jobs are going to people of your origin that are not US citizens and people from other middle east countries. In general these folks are willing to work for less than what I think a US citizen is willing to take. The numbers above in the 15-25K all in is about right. Even for senior people it is tough to find anything above the mid-upper 30s. Senior positions are hard to find, because the mentality here is why pay one person 40K when I can pay two people 15K each. Consideration of skills and work quality don't enter in.

One industry that will pay better in general is military contractors, but those are hard to find. 

Good luck


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## kulfi (Oct 22, 2012)

fcjb1970 said:


> These days most of the low and mid level IT jobs are going to people of your origin that are not US citizens and people from other middle east countries. In general these folks are willing to work for less than what I think a US citizen is willing to take. The numbers above in the 15-25K all in is about right. Even for senior people it is tough to find anything above the mid-upper 30s. Senior positions are hard to find, because the mentality here is why pay one person 40K when I can pay two people 15K each. Consideration of skills and work quality don't enter in.
> 
> One industry that will pay better in general is military contractors, but those are hard to find.
> 
> Good luck


Thanks fcjb
I'll take ~25k/month AED although its lot lower than my current salary. I spend $10k(Travel exp to India every year for whole family) +$20k (US Tax+Social security etc) per year. If I factor these I maybe close to present salary.
The question is whether there are jobs in Dubai and what are my chances of landing one in 1-2 months if I come over there. I have been applying online for last 3-4 months and have not received any positive response


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## imac (Oct 14, 2012)

kulfi said:


> Thanks fcjb
> I'll take ~25k/month AED although its lot lower than my current salary. I spend $10k(Travel exp to India every year for whole family) +$20k (US Tax+Social security etc) per year. If I factor these I maybe close to present salary.
> The question is whether there are jobs in Dubai and what are my chances of landing one in 1-2 months if I come over there. I have been applying online for last 3-4 months and have not received any positive response


Therein lies your conundrum... why would they offer you 25k plus have to deal with things like relocation when they have 500 other local applicants who would do the job for 10k-15k all inclusive?

Just a quick review of the job boards and my own personal experiences, you can see there are a lot of positions available, but at the same time, a huge number of applicants a stones throw away willing to do the work for a lot less than what someone from North America would consider a decent wage.

What I am rapidly beginning to realize is that the grass is not really greener on the other side, pardon the pun.

I have been to Dubai, and there are other costs that people in NA do not factor in when calculating their potential ability to save while in the ME. One thing that is making me seriously think about what a minimum package for me would be is the high cost of education for kids and the associated expenses. Getting kids into a decent school, depending on how many kids you have and what kind of education you want for them, it can get pretty expensive pretty quick.

There was something posted on Bayt recently that I applied for, and a few days later, when I logged in to check the status of my application, noticed that more than 2000 people have applied for the same job and Bayt did not consider my CV as a good match for the position, although I have everything the job description said was the requirement... I think they ranked my application 1500+ out of 2000 applicants... no surprise employers are not breaking down my door to offer me the job.


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## imac (Oct 14, 2012)

The other thing, a lot of people I have been talking to who are citizens in NA and in a similar state are using the tax free bit as one of the key factors why they are interested in the ME.

But there is a catch not many people realize. At least in Canada, the only situation where you are not liable for Canadian taxes is if you completely sever ties with Canada while you are overseas. If you even so much as have a local Canadian bank account, then Revenue Canada may consider you a deemed resident and you are liable for income taxes from world wide income...

All my research has been indicating to me is that to be completely "tax free" you pretty much have to cut ties to your country completely, including liquidating any savings or investments you have, and "MOVE", if in the future you have any plans of returning, you either start from scratch, or if you cannot cut ties, then you run the risk of Revenue Canada wanting a share of your income for the time you were not here...


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## ibkiss (Feb 1, 2012)

kulfi is a delicious stuff


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## kulfi (Oct 22, 2012)

imac said:


> Therein lies your conundrum... why would they offer you 25k plus have to deal with things like relocation when they have 500 other local applicants who would do the job for 10k-15k all inclusive?
> 
> Just a quick review of the job boards and my own personal experiences, you can see there are a lot of positions available, but at the same time, a huge number of applicants a stones throw away willing to do the work for a lot less than what someone from North America would consider a decent wage.
> 
> ...


 iMac,
You only mentioned that package is between 15-25, I was only saying that 25 is acceptable to me. About why would the employer hire someone out of country when there are talents locally available, you are right, employer will prefer someone locally available and that's the reason I asked in my first post above as to what is my chance of landing a job in 2 months if come over there.
I have lived in dubai from 97-99 and I know about other expenses. I agree that education expense is very high while its free here in US. 
I have calculated that I may be able to save about 5k if I get a 25k package. It will be lot less that what I save now, but my move is purely for personal reasons and I hope to be able jump to a better paying job after 2 years. At least you never know if you don't try, right?

Btw I didn't know about the new feature of bayt till you mentioned above. For one of the job I applied before I see my rank 26/1500+ , that is encouraging


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## azahir (Jan 31, 2012)

kulfi said:


> iMac,
> You only mentioned that package is between 15-25, I was only saying that 25 is acceptable to me. About why would the employer hire someone out of country when there are talents locally available, you are right, employer will prefer someone locally available and that's the reason I asked in my first post above as to what is my chance of landing a job in 2 months if come over there.
> I have lived in dubai from 97-99 and I know about other expenses. I agree that education expense is very high while its free here in US.
> I have calculated that I may be able to save about 5k if I get a 25k package. It will be lot less that what I save now, but my move is purely for personal reasons and I hope to be able jump to a better paying job after 2 years. At least you never know if you don't try, right?
> ...


Kulfi,
Either there are not a lot of IT guys in this forum or all of them are employed and busy at work


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## -Geek (Oct 31, 2012)

Kulfi, I have noticed a very rapid change in 2012 specially in IT Sector. To get a good job with high pay scale you always need a solid reference in the company as in big companies usually internal hiring takes place.

Companies hire people from other countries because they do not have a good idea of job market and that way company can get a good bargain.


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

imac said:


> Ive been looking for something similar for a while now.. for this field, there seem to be a lot of competition and not a lot of money. The numbers I see typically seem to be around AED 15,000 - 25,000 per month, but that is all inclusive.
> 
> Not a lot, considering NA pay scales.


I'm not sure what experience level you are but 25,000 AED equates to about $82,000 per year tax free. In US would need to be making around $120,000 before tax to get that. 

That my friend even for expensive cities isn't low. However it all depends what position in your career are at.


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

ysayap said:


> I have friends who are currently working in the middle east. They say that there are a lot of job opportunities in the middle east if you are not choosy with regards to the the work that you will do.


Or the company you work for?


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

ibkiss said:


> kulfi is a delicious stuff


Absolutely


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## kulfi (Oct 22, 2012)

rahzaa said:


> I'm not sure what experience level you are but 25,000 AED equates to about $82,000 per year tax free. In US would need to be making around $120,000 before tax to get that.
> 
> That my friend even for expensive cities isn't low. However it all depends what position in your career are at.


yes, I make ~120k including bonus, I live in Texas so your calculation is not right, My 120k goes a long way in Texas(Housing is so cheap here+schooling is free+no state tax). I'll say AED 25k/Month=USD 85k/Annum in Texas. So I'll take a deep pay cut if I move to Dubai for 25k and I know that. As I mentioned before, I am moving to Dubai just for personal reasons. Also hope to jump to a better paying job once I am there.


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

kulfi said:


> yes, I make ~120k including bonus, I live in Texas so your calculation is not right, My 120k goes a long way in Texas(Housing is so cheap here+schooling is free+no state tax). I'll say AED 25k/Month=USD 85k/Annum in Texas. So I'll take a deep pay cut if I move to Dubai for 25k and I know that. As I mentioned before, I am moving to Dubai just for personal reasons. Also hope to jump to a better paying job once I am there.


Well, I wasn't refering to Texas in particular. You have to pay more to live in a premium city as Dubai. 

It just depends on your lifestyle.....at 30% income tax(for most states it is federal + state) $120K does equal to 25K AED.....so calculation isn't wrong.......Alot of people pay less income tax, some pay more....that is just a general number....i'm not your tax attorney. 

Anyways..............just keep in mind, changing jobs in UAE is not as easy as US. Labor laws, Six month employment ban, contracts, visas etc.


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## imac (Oct 14, 2012)

kulfi makes a good point about his specific situation, that he wants to look at moving for other personal reasons...

My specific case, I will only look at moving if doing so would put me significantly ahead in what I am taking home, taxes or no taxes... making the move to be right where you are financially in my case does not make sense.. so using your example, I would look at moving if I was taking home $120k total tax free if I am currently taking home $85k after taxes... to me, if I am just taking home $95k tax free would not make sense to move to the other side of the world...

To each his own...


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

imac said:


> kulfi makes a good point about his specific situation, that he wants to look at moving for other personal reasons...
> 
> My specific case, I will only look at moving if doing so would put me significantly ahead in what I am taking home, taxes or no taxes... making the move to be right where you are financially in my case does not make sense.. so using your example, I would look at moving if I was taking home $120k total tax free if I am currently taking home $85k after taxes... to me, if I am just taking home $95k tax free would not make sense to move to the other side of the world...
> 
> To each his own...


I agree.....and for the same exact reason.......if a person from Middle East is going to make the same money as he will in US....why live in US? ..... Why not live in a place that has your friends, family, culture, religion etc.

So as you wouldn't move to Dubai for the same salary..........I would not move to the US for the same salary. 

And we will see more of this as the world catches up with the western countries.


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

hahahahahaahahaahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa someone want to live here for the same salary... I about fell out my chair. Now that was funny.


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

Jynxgirl said:


> hahahahahaahahaahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa someone want to live here for the same salary... I about fell out my chair. Now that was funny.


It's people like you who are stuck up on their "expat lifestyle". Mercer cost of living has 94 other cities more expensive than Dubai. It all depends on how you live. 

Why don't you leave Dubai if you hate it so much? Living a miserable life just for a higher salary? Pity! 

Now you can get back on your chair and stop laughing.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

@Rahzaa - Even though you have put up the American flag against your user name, I am guessing you call Dubai "home" rather than US (going by one of your posts in the thread). However, for most of the rest of us who are just economic migrants, Dubai is more of a "hardship" location to work. If we are working in the middle of the desert (literally), a lot of us would do so only if we make more money than back home, wherever it is. Personally speaking, I would get a number of good opportunities back home - the reason I am in Dubai is because I am making more money here. So for someone like me I HAVE to make more money than home to justify living away from home, in the middle of the desert, and in a country where things can go topsy turvy as soon as I lose my job/choose to resign.

However, there is a different class of people for whom Dubai represents either (a) more opportunities than back home, or (b) safer environment than back home, or (c) Dubai is home. Such people would obviously be okay with compromising on the salary to be able to live here. 

So what Jynxgirl is probably saying is that if someone falls in the first category of people, they need to make more money. For Kulfi and you it is a different matter.

Having said that, 25K is a good salary to start working on. Its not much, but its not low. However, with kids, esp. if they are not in an Indian or Pakistani school where fees are much lower, expenses add up pretty quickly.


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

rsinner said:


> @Rahzaa - Even though you have put up the American flag against your user name, I am guessing you call Dubai "home" rather than US (going by one of your posts in the thread). However, for most of the rest of us who are just economic migrants, Dubai is more of a "hardship" location to work. If we are working in the middle of the desert (literally), a lot of us would do so only if we make more money than back home, wherever it is. Personally speaking, I would get a number of good opportunities back home - the reason I am in Dubai is because I am making more money here. So for someone like me I HAVE to make more money than home to justify living away from home, in the middle of the desert, and in a country where things can go topsy turvy as soon as I lose my job/choose to resign.
> 
> However, there is a different class of people for whom Dubai represents either (a) more opportunities than back home, or (b) safer environment than back home, or (c) Dubai is home. Such people would obviously be okay with compromising on the salary to be able to live here.
> 
> ...


That is exactly the point I was trying to make!!! It is jinx girl who doesn't understand the point. Yes, there are people in the world who would happily live in Dubai for the same salary the get in US. Oh what a shocker! 

I don't have a wife or kids....I'm 27.......so when I'm referring to salary it is from my perspective. Geez.....I'm done with these forums.......they are full of people forced to live in UAE by the lure of money.....venting their frustration on these forums.


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## kulfi (Oct 22, 2012)

rahzaa said:


> It's people like you who are stuck up on their "expat lifestyle". Mercer cost of living has 94 other cities more expensive than Dubai. It all depends on how you live.
> 
> Why don't you leave Dubai if you hate it so much? Living a miserable life just for a higher salary? Pity!
> 
> Now you can get back on your chair and stop laughing.


rahzaa,



Actually some of the Americans working in middle east won't get even half of what they earn there if they work in US. Its only just because of wrong notion of Arabs that all Americans are smart that these guys slip in. American job market is very competitive and fair and rewards are based on merits. Unlike in middle east, rotten tomato's cannot survive for long in US work place just by acting smart.
that's the reason why some stay in middle east even though they don't like it or pretend to hate it. they very well know that they are worthless if they go back to US and will add to the 23M jobless here.

Note : No offense to US or Americans in general. My personal experience living in multiple continents in that Americans are the most friendly and fair people in the world with some exception


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## azahir (Jan 31, 2012)

Looks like finally some good movement in Dubai job market in Dubai. I got couple of phone calls last week


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## rahzaa (May 2, 2012)

azahir said:


> Looks like finally some good movement in Dubai job market in Dubai. I got couple of phone calls last week


Nice! How/where did you apply for these positions?


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## azahir (Jan 31, 2012)

rahzaa said:


> Nice! How/where did you apply for these positions?


Nothing to get excited yet. I usually apply for all the matching positions in indeed.ae


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