# Classic cars and Bikes



## redwolf

Anyone out there want to start a full blown thread on this topic???
Lets include pics etc.

C'mon.....waddaya say????


----------



## oronero

Okay here's a picture of my bike, I've owned it since 1999 but have not ridden it for a few years now as I have been too busy with work.


----------



## redwolf

Now that looks a pretty neat machine oronero, well looked after (I hope??)
Pity you are not riding it, but I hope at least you start it, keep the galleries wet??


----------



## oronero

Redwolf, you don't want to know, sadly it has been in storage for the last six years alongside some other other bikes that I also have.  

Here is another one that I am awaiting the engine for, hopefully I will have that by the end of the year and shall be able to finish it off...a nice little racer once it is finished.


----------



## travelling-man

Lovely Ducati!

Here's my baby










My last (probably) bike:










A few random ones from my RSA car club etc:









































































Oh & wait till BikerSteve starts posting his pics!


----------



## bikersteve

*Bikersteve*

Hi guys I'd love to post some pics,but unable to via my iPad ? I shal ask traveling man to do it for me ?


----------



## travelling-man

Be a pleasure to buddy..... either send me what you want posted or tell me which ones of the pics I have to post.


----------



## oronero

Travelling-man, that Jeep reminds me of the Blazers that you would see on American TV programmes, I always liked them as a kid.

Those RSA pictures, your cars from the past or a selection of some at events...I like all of them with the exception of the mid 70's Corvette, I have never been a huge fan of that body shape.


----------



## travelling-man

Oronero

Most of the others were taken at some of the local classic car & bike shows in RSA...... it's not at all unusual to have over 100 classic cars & bikes at these shows & I used to write a regular column on classics for one of the local RSA papers so got to go to all the shows and take pics etc. 

FWIW, classics are EXTREMELY popular in Africa because they're a good way to hide money & they can be moved out very quickly if political trouble kicks off. 

Steve,

My connection is a bit slow just now but I'll post some of your pics asap.


----------



## travelling-man

A few of BikerSteve's toys:


----------



## bikersteve

*Toys*

Just a few mind you ?


----------



## oronero

Steve they look great, I like customized bikes, though the thought of owning one in the UK with our crap climate sends shivers down my spine...but being in Portugal would be the right location!


----------



## siobhanwf

*Kawassaki Eliminator 600*

Saddle ***** not included ....sorry


----------



## bikersteve

*Trike*



siobhanwf said:


> Saddle ***** not included ....sorry


Start em young I say ?


----------



## siobhanwf

Couldn`t find a helmet to fit her


----------



## bikersteve

*Trike*



siobhanwf said:


> Couldn`t find a helmet to fit her


Typical iv just sold a kids lid on eBay


----------



## siobhanwf

bikersteve said:


> Typical iv just sold a kids lid on eBay



She is only a poser really. Just visiting....my niece`s daughter..... 22 months old


----------



## bikersteve

*Trike*



siobhanwf said:


> She is only a poser really. Just visiting....my niece`s daughter..... 22 months old


At least you can give her back,he,he..


----------



## siobhanwf

bikersteve said:


> At least you can give her back,he,he..



ooooooooooooooooooooooo YES great isn`t i t??????


----------



## bikersteve

*Trike*



siobhanwf said:


> ooooooooooooooooooooooo YES great isn`t i t??????


..iv got 2 teenaged step kids and 4 gran kids..great when they all go..hooray..:clap2:


----------



## redwolf

I love children....................................but I couldn't eat a full one!!!!


----------



## bikersteve

My nieces and gran kids have just left..phew !and only 1 number on the lotto,so won't be moving yet ?...dam


----------



## uncledekka

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I'm in the process of househunting in portugal, & was toying with the idea of importing a muscle car from either the UK or the Netherlands. Has anybody done something similar & have you got any advice for me?
Thanks in advance!
PS Some stunning bikes here, almost enough to tempt me back onto two wheels...


----------



## bikersteve

uncledekka said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I'm in the process of househunting in portugal, & was toying with the idea of importing a muscle car from either the UK or the Netherlands. Has anybody done something similar & have you got any advice for me?
> Thanks in advance!
> PS Some stunning bikes here, almost enough to tempt me back onto two wheels...


If you contact Canoeman on here,he maybe able to help you ?..why not get a chop as well ?


----------



## oronero

uncledekka said:


> Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I'm in the process of househunting in portugal, & was toying with the idea of importing a muscle car from either the UK or the Netherlands. Has anybody done something similar & have you got any advice for me?
> Thanks in advance!
> PS Some stunning bikes here, almost enough to tempt me back onto two wheels...


It would seem that to avoid paying registration taxes the vehicle needs to be owned and registered to you for 12 months prior to you becoming resident in Portugal. 

I believe if the vehicle was manufactured prior to 1970 then there would be no registration tax to pay, irrespective of how long you had owned it.

Some of this has been covered in the following thread...link here


----------



## travelling-man

You'll find the requirements in several places here but for tax free import the basics are:

Import within 6 months or your arrival in PT

The car must be registered in your name for 12 months previously

And big engines mean high road tax.

I guess I've probably missed a few things but am sure others will come along to add to my list.


----------



## uncledekka

Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated!
I've just had a tinker with the ISV calculator on the suggested link, and promptly passed out!! The way I see it, a petrol car with a 5.7 litre engine manufactured after 1970 will set me back nearly 16 grand! 
And if it's BEFORE 1970 it works out at 22k!!
Those are some seriously scary numbers, especially since I'm hoping to move out in 6 months or so and I haven't even bought the car yet!


----------



## oronero

*uncledekka*, may I suggest that you do a search of Portuguese classic car sites using the term 'classico Portugal' entered in a google search and trawl through the dealer sites.

Unless you can get something in without paying the tax it is almost not worth it, there are plenty of classics out there and yes they are a little more expensive but they might not have the same level of corrosion that UK cars may have suffered.

To my mind you may be better off in buying something like a Ferrari 308/328/348/355 (LHD) here for £20-30K, which equates to 25-37,500 Euros as they seem to be valued there at around the 50-60,000 Euros mark and thus you can make a potential profit after 5 years.

There seems to be a lack of Lotus Esprit models there and they are worth peanuts here. Being a GRP car it should be relatively simple to convert them to LHD as the engine is in the back and then a retrim of the dash, who knows potentially what one would sell for there.

Remember that you need to keep the vehicle for 5 years once it has arrived there so that you do not have to pay the tax on it, by then the economy may have stabilized and it may be easier to sell on.

Another option is a classic motorbike.


----------



## uncledekka

oronero said:


> *uncledekka*, may I suggest that you do a search of Portuguese classic car sites using the term 'classico Portugal' entered in a google search and trawl through the dealer sites.
> 
> Unless you can get something in without paying the tax it is almost not worth it, there are plenty of classics out there and yes they are a little more expensive but they might not have the same level of corrosion that UK cars may have suffered.
> 
> To my mind you may be better off in buying something like a Ferrari 308/328/348/355 (LHD) here for £20-30K, which equates to 25-37,500 Euros as they seem to be valued there at around the 50-60,000 Euros mark and thus you can make a potential profit after 5 years.
> 
> There seems to be a lack of Lotus Esprit models there and they are worth peanuts here. Being a GRP car it should be relatively simple to convert them to LHD as the engine is in the back and then a retrim of the dash, who knows potentially what one would sell for there.
> 
> Remember that you need to keep the vehicle for 5 years once it has arrived there so that you do not have to pay the tax on it, by then the economy may have stabilized and it may be easier to sell on.
> 
> Another option is a classic motorbike.


Hi Oronero,
It looks like the more I learn, the more inclined I am to agree with you. Damn! I had my heart set on a 1968 Pontiac Firebird with A/C; I guess not too many of those on OLX eh? :Cry:
Many thanks for all the help; hopefully I'll have a pic of something shiny to post soon...

...but not a bike. The wife wants me to take out a hefty life insurance policy before I can get one, & I don't like tempting her...


----------



## oronero

uncledekka said:


> Many thanks for all the help; hopefully I'll have a pic of something shiny to post soon...
> 
> ...but not a bike. The wife wants me to take out a hefty life insurance policy before I can get one, & I don't like tempting her...


If you do get a bike, make sure that you *DO NOT* get a life insurance policy, then she is less likely to drive you off the road or into you!


----------



## oronero

uncledekka, funny that you mention OLX but this was listed a while back

PONTIAC FIREBIRD FORMULA 400 1971 4800CC
€ 25.000,00

I know that it is not the right model but they are out there. Price may seem steep but by the time that you have driven there it will have drunk a fair few gallons and that 'ain't cheap'!


----------



## canoeman

Sorry but why would you want 1968 Pontiac Firebird with Portuguese roads? you'd rarely get any enjoyment out of it

You've got your simulator ISV calculations way out, suggest you check again


----------



## uncledekka

canoeman said:


> Sorry but why would you want 1968 Pontiac Firebird with Portuguese roads? you'd rarely get any enjoyment out of it
> 
> You've got your simulator ISV calculations way out, suggest you check again


Just tried again; no matter how I tweak it, a car with a 5,700cc engine manufactured before 1970 wieghs in at 22 grand. 
Oh, and have you not seen a firebird?


----------



## oronero

However *uncledekka*, if you manage to own it for 12 months before registering it as a personal import then you will not have to pay that duty and can forget the 22,000 euros...or else you can always buy a new Ford Ka over there with the money!


----------



## canoeman

uncledekka said:


> Just tried again; no matter how I tweak it, a car with a 5,700cc engine manufactured before 1970 wieghs in at 22 grand.
> Oh, and have you not seen a firebird?


what values are you entering? you could opt for a smaller engine that would suit here better
Yes I'm familiar with car are you familiar with Portuguese roads


----------



## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> Yes I'm familiar with car are you familiar with Portuguese roads


Damn but that made me chuckle!


----------



## Jeff TT

With our impending move to the Guia area I am having a real struggle parting with my Japanese beast that I have owned for the past 11 years, twin turbo 3 litre v6 quad cam sounds and drives awesome and with only 65k miles on the clock is like new...but this whole import and road tax thing has me vexed, what to do? I am almost tempted to just keep it in the garage.

Jeff TT


----------



## jack07smith1988

To gust soul to a rusty dead junky piece of iron is not an easy endeavor.
It may take seasons or even an era but at the end it will be passion and patience that will turn the junk to a piece of artifact. the reason is lack of resources or the dieing enthusiasm. It is hard to keep ones dedication alive
with response from market along with the difficulty aligned to procure parts.

With a dream to bring every individual whether a restorer, owner,
Club member, spare part supplier or simply enthusiasts.
Here we are with Indians first market place for classic cars and bike.


----------



## canoeman

You bring it, what's it going to cost next to nothing, especially if you take time to resource things like headlights from EU breakers.
Read the UK Consulate it's all quite easy


----------



## travelling-man

JeffTT

If that were mine, there's no way I'd be parted from it so would have to bring it with me....... a really stunning car!


----------



## uncledekka

canoeman said:


> what values are you entering? you could opt for a smaller engine that would suit here better
> Yes I'm familiar with car are you familiar with Portuguese roads


Yuk-yuk-yuk. Very clever. 
In my last post I state very clearly that it's a pre-1970 5.7 litre car. 
And yes, I am familiar with Portuguese roads. Maybe they just seem bad to you because your *eyesight isn't what it was*- are you sure you're not driving on the pavement? 
Thank you for all your invaluable help.


----------



## canoeman

CO2 emissions *play a very important part *in calculation not just the cc

To me Portuguese roads aren't suited to an American muscle car as you describe it, which aren't renowned for their nimble handling, but if you'd rather be rude get on with it.


----------



## Jeff TT

*canoeman* 
would be happy to pay a reaonable amount but have heard stories of £5k+ etc. if its cheap enough I would love to take it, and as far a parts are concerned no problem, the business I am in at the moment is a specialist in the very same car and have a workshop full of spares.

*
travelling-man*

thanks for the encouraging comments, as I said above would love to take it, targa roof panels would never be in, unlike the Uk weather they are never out!

Jeff TT


----------



## canoeman

Jeff TT said:


> *canoeman*
> would be happy to pay a reaonable amount but have heard stories of £5k+ etc. if its cheap enough I would love to take it, and as far a parts are concerned no problem, the business I am in at the moment is a specialist in the very same car and have a workshop full of spares.
> 
> *
> travelling-man*
> 
> thanks for the encouraging comments, as I said above would love to take it, targa roof panels would never be in, unlike the Uk weather they are never out!
> 
> Jeff TT


You miss the point that you can bring in 1 car per person when you 1st move to Portugal, if you have owned the car for a min of 12 months before you move and can prove residence in that country for that period, plus a few other bits *your costs would be approximately €500*, more if you employed an agent. 

It's *only* if you imported a car *once you where a Resident that* you start paying ISV and other costs depending where the cars imported from, that's when you here these stories of large amounts of money.


----------



## travelling-man

I think Canoeman has a good point about PT roads & drivers not mixing very well with Yank Tanks & muscle cars etc but I don't have any dramatic problems with my old Jeep..... I can't get heavy on the left foot until I hit the highway but I'm a bit of an old fart anyway so don't do much of that anyway.

He's also dead right about the various taxes..... I got my Jeep in free of import tax etc but the ******s still nailed me for an annual road tax of E773.


----------



## oronero

travelling-man said:


> He's also dead right about the various taxes..... I got my Jeep in free of import tax etc but the ******s still nailed me for an annual road tax of E773.


*travelling-man*, does the road tax reduce each year that you keep the car or is it like the UK, where it varies depending upon the budget but usually always upwards?


----------



## canoeman

No like UK it depends on Budget, generally it goes up each year, but mine has been same now for 2 years running


----------



## travelling-man

I'm told it's the latter but am also told I can have the car assessed by the classic car section of the ACP (Portuguese AA) and if it meets their criteria, have it classified as a car of historical interest..... If that happens, I'm told it then becomes free or road tax.

Now it gets more complicated..... I'd like to have the car converted to LPG but although I haven't confirmed this with the ACP yet, have been told by other sources that if I have that conversion done, I then lose the tax free status....... If that's correct, I need to decide if it'll be cheaper to have it tax free and running on petrol or pay the road tax and make my savings from running it on LPG.


----------



## oronero

Thanks for the replies lads, it helps me focus the questions that I need to ask my cousins when I get over there.

Like, _if vehicle modifications are not allowed, what happens if you convert a vehicle to a historic rally spec to the spec of the *FIA Homologation sheets* is this allowed even though this means larger engine, suspension, axle and carbs, especially if it has a Historic Vehicle Passport, similar to the UK *MSA passport*._

I didn't want to get back into car/vehicle restoration but it could be another angle, certainly worth considering.


----------



## canoeman

If it has any of the following, then it shouldn't be a problem, TM wants understandably to reduce cost of running or IUC and a GPL conversion is unlikely to be accepted, especially if it could not be installed or removed without damaging/altering car

Be classified by the International Classic Car Federation (Fédération Internationale des Véhicule Anciens, FIVA)
Have a Classic Car Certificate (Certificado de Automóvel Antigo) from FIVA or ACP 
Have a Technical Logbook/Manual (Ficha Técnica) from FIVA or other competent organisation

There's a lot of information on this site or you might want to join, the section on importing has been under "work" for a considerable time now
http://www.cpaa.pt/


----------



## oronero

canoeman said:


> If it has any of the following, then it shouldn't be a problem, TM wants understandably to reduce cost of running or IUC and a GPL conversion is unlikely to be accepted, especially if it could not be installed or removed without damaging/altering car
> 
> Be classified by the International Classic Car Federation (Fédération Internationale des Véhicule Anciens, FIVA)
> Have a Classic Car Certificate (Certificado de Automóvel Antigo) from FIVA or ACP
> Have a Technical Logbook/Manual (Ficha Técnica) from FIVA or other competent organisation


*Canoeman*, I had seen this probably directed by one of your earlier post and had been on their site (FIVA).

However the FIVA and the FIA are two seperate international bodies, one for standard road going historic road vehicles and the other for motorsport but it seems that both have the ability to award vehicle passports provided that they are built to the relevant homologation specifications. 

I did wonder how some of the Portuguese rally cars were being registered as there cannot be that many genuine BDA powered Ford Escorts in Portugal, to say nothing of some of the Porsche 911 RS Carreras that I have seen, some even road registered.

*Bikersteve* turn your talents into building competition cars to survive there and you will probably get some commissions for hot-rods that 'the monied' can trailer to shows or trackdays to help keep your creative juices flowing.

My cousin tells me that despite the recession in Portugal there are plenty of rich folk there and that they have money to splash if things take their fancy...sounds to me like there is an opportunity to be had. :confused2:


----------



## canoeman

I understand the distinction between the two bodies, but where talking importing here and if importing free of ISV or "historic" interest for no IUC and reguirement states FIVA or ACP as proof of "historic" interest then authorities are unlikely to accept FIA, they tend to be very blinkered


----------



## oronero

canoeman said:


> I understand the distinction between the two bodies, but where talking importing here and if importing free of ISV or "historic" interest for no IUC and reguirement states FIVA or ACP as proof of "historic" interest then authorities are unlikely to accept FIA, they tend to be very blinkered


Ah well, that will mean that a vehicle would be taken into the country, no matriculation or taxes or bothering to register it there and using it for 'closed events' a bit like the race motorcycles. 

However there is then the possibility of buying a Portuguese registered vehicle, say a mkI Capri and building it to either RS2.6 or RS3.1 spec, in accordance with FIA technical passport and having it road legal as it has homologation papers!

This could technically be carried out to any vehicle that has FIA homologation papers, it could make for some interesting road registered Portuguese cars...Alloy paneled Alfa GTA period replica....dreams are starting to sound interesting again.


----------



## canoeman

except I think Portuguese realise the value of their old cars


----------



## oronero

Yeah I see that the classic cars on a comparison to the UK market seem expensive, however they should be void of the serious corrosion that we have due to our winter salted roads, so they may be cheaper than doing a full bodywork restoration on a UK car.

To see Portuguese Ford Escorts both, mkI and mkII, being advertised for sale requiring restoration but having solid front turret mounts is a revelation. I remember repairing six year old UK vehicles with replacement panels as the originals had rotted.

Proper body restoration is not cheap, a close friend did a Singer Vogue for someone as a 'fill-in' job, cost the chap around £11,000 including the paint job, it needed extensive work to the sills, one inner front wing, both outer front wings and a front panel. He's just finishing an E-type jaguar for another customer, the metalwork and paintwork has come in circa £25,000 and that was a USA import to start with, so not too bad. He also had an Alfa Junior that looked nice and had been at some alleged specialist, nice from 50 paces but on a ramp you could see the parts that they had glossed over...in the end that was re-shelled with a better body but that still required work!

When you start to look at the commercial costs in restoring a UK car against the potentially rot-free Portuguese examples there is little saving in buying a UK vehicle. I have seen many a UK car that looks nice and shinny which has fooled previous customers of mine and they have been rot boxes requiring extensive work, none of which is cheap.

Savings can be made with carefull UK purchases but when the cars are not worth as much as in Portugal the justification for people to not carry out proper repairs in the UK seems more prevalent.


----------



## canoeman

again understand all this, so far the ones I've been interested in, yes might not have the extensive rot problems as UK cars but a rather inflated value of what owners think there actually worth, maybe now with times becoming tougher they might be more realistic.

One guy I know has a Safari, Hillman Minx, Triumph Dolomite and a couple of other that he can't be persuaded to sell or even move out of a field where they are rotting to under cover, three years ago they where worth buying now more suitable as spares and even then he won't listen


----------



## oronero

Dolomite Sprints, I have a penchant for them... I have owned around ten of them over the years, my first was a six year old example that I bought when I was 19, it got stolen three years ago and only had 53,000 miles from new...I was gutted!

I still have some of the ' BL special tuning' race parts for them, I see that when they appear in Portugal people seem to ask about 6K euros for a standard example, they are much cheaper in Italy and I would dearly like to build a racer one and do some trackdays and race events over there, so matriculation and registration would not be a necessity. There are a couple of Portuguese registered race/rally spec ones that have been advertised but they look like 'dogs' to me and they want around 25-30K euros for them!

I wouldn't touch another UK spec car as the majority are rot boxes and they do suffer. best are the early ones where BL were using decent steel...from 1976 onwards they must have used steel already infested with the tin worm.

The one that was stolen despite being one of the last of the few of the line had certain areas of rot that I had to attend to but it was in really nice condition, underside painted in body colour stunning car, very sadly missed. I had it for about 25 years. 

The Ducati' help to keep me going though, but I can see that I will put some of them for sale soon as having a dozen seems a little excessive and they will go a long way to paying for a property in Portugal! Anybody fancy a race 750SS bevel, low mileage 888 SP2 or even a new 916 SPS 'Foggy replica' new and unregistered, the later two both owned in excess of 11 years?


----------



## greycharlestoner

We would be looking to bring our concourse Citroen 2cv6 Charleston from the UK when we retire to Portugal.[It was made in Mangualde!]


Anybody belong or know of active classic car clubs?


----------



## canoeman

Most areas have active classic or type car clubs and rallies, where are you thinking of moving too?


----------



## greycharlestoner

hi Canoeman

At this stage inland from Coimbra say Figueiro dos Vinhos or further south, maybe near Odemira...


----------



## travelling-man

FWIW, I'm close to Figueiro Dos Vinhos & am aware of at least 2 classic car clubs in the area..... One of which appears to be pretty much all Citroens.


----------



## canoeman

This is one of the National Clubs CLUBE PORTUGUÊS DE AUTOMÓVEIS ANTIGOS - Entrada who have headquarters and museum in Porto.
Museu do Caramulo > Automobile Collection lovely place and very helpful

Local Camaras are useful for information on local clubs, their like a UK Council so you can search each council by *www.cm.* name of Camara*.pt* so Figuerio dos Vinhos would be Município de Figueiró dos Vinhos


----------



## greycharlestoner

Ah yes I Googled the 2cv/Dyane club, plenty of new found friends to be found there I have no doubt!


----------



## Guest

Hi y'all, After a discussion with my local classic vehicle club there is a change in the UK MOT rules so it should be possible to keep a OLD UK registered vehicle abroad and still be able to get a UK MOT and UK road tax without the need to repatriate it each year.


----------



## canoeman

coleio said:


> Hi y'all, After a discussion with my local classic vehicle club there is a change in the UK MOT rules so it should be possible to keep a OLD UK registered vehicle abroad and still be able to get a UK MOT and UK road tax without the need to repatriate it each year.


Can you expand on changes to UK MOT, currently a UK MOT can only be done in UK, and I don't see how any changes would affect the EU, UK, Portuguese laws about length of time a UK vehicle can be in EU/Portugal which is a max of 183 in any 12 month period, which applies to Non Residents only, also a Portuguese Resident , cannot drive a non Portuguese registered car in Portugal.


----------



## greycharlestoner

canoeman said:


> Can you expand on changes to UK MOT, currently a UK MOT can only be done in UK, and I don't see how any changes would affect the EU, UK, Portuguese laws about length of time a UK vehicle can be in EU/Portugal which is a max of 183 in any 12 month period, which applies to Non Residents only, also a Portuguese Resident , cannot drive a non Portuguese registered car in Portugal.


I intend to re-register the car in Portugal, which is a bit bizarre to me as the car was originally made there and exported to Paris, where the previous original owner bought it a re-registered in UK...


----------



## canoeman

I know you intend to re-register, i was asking what the changes you say have been made to UK MOT ?


----------



## oronero

I also had never heard this but came across this link when searching..

MOT-exemptt Classics - The best and worst MOT-exempt classic cars - Feature photos - MSN Cars UK


----------



## oronero

...I also saw this...

New European MOT rules 'could make classic cars illegal', warn critics | Metro.co.uk


----------



## Guest

uncledekka said:


> Yuk-yuk-yuk. Very clever.
> In my last post I state very clearly that it's a pre-1970 5.7 litre car.
> And yes, I am familiar with Portuguese roads. Maybe they just seem bad to you because your *eyesight isn't what it was*- are you sure you're not driving on the pavement?
> Thank you for all your invaluable help.


Hi,

Don't give up. Not an ideal solution but it should be possible for you, every year, to use the car here for 6 months on it's UK reg (ie the summer) and maybe store it in Spain for 6 months. The DVLA are aware of the problem of having a UK registered vehicle outside the UK and the annual MOT/Tax. I approached them, after all they are the experts, and here is the result of my email. It is also the exact same reply from the same person as a friend received with a similar question.


_*I know you say I should export the vehicle if it's to be out of the country for over a year, but that is only practical if the vehicle can be re-registered in another country. If I am traveling between countries that cannot be done.
I know I can renew my road tax via the internet, but I can only do this if I have a current MOT. It is not possible to renew a UK MOT whilst abroad so once the MOT expires I cannot re-tax the vehicle without returning to the UK and as soon as I drive off the ferry I am committing an offense. Is there a solution to this problem?

And I received the reply:-

Thank you for your email.
You are right when you say that it would not be practical to register your vehicle in another country if you are passing through a number of them over a period.
You would not be able to tax your vehicle because of the lack of a valid MOT certificate and you would not be able to declare your vehicle off the road because this can only be done if the vehicle was being laid up within the confines of the UK.
In these circumstances you would need to write a letter into the Centre quoting the registration mark of the vehicle and explaining why it would not be taxed or declared off the road over the next year or so. You can ask for this correspondence to be entered on to the vehicle record. This would ensure that you would not receive any fines or penalties with regard to the fact that your car will not be taxed.
The following contact information should be used with regard to this matter;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
I hope that this matter has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov*_


----------



## Guest

oronero said:


> I also had never heard this but came across this link when searching..
> 
> MOT-exemptt Classics - The best and worst MOT-exempt classic cars - Feature photos - MSN Cars UK


Hi,

Try the DVLA website, ALL UK reg pre 1960 vehicles can be issued an MOT without a technical inspection. So the ole motorbike can now hide a shed in Portugal and get it's free MOT a and Tax.


----------



## canoeman

What your question and answer from DVLA takes no account of, is the EU law and each EU countries laws for registering Residence. They might be experts on MOT, tax and D/L but not on EU Residence requirements.

This statement of theirs is I believe misleading and inaccurate, because UK law clearly states that for a UK vehicle to be driven legally abroad it must be road legal in UK, therefore it must have valid MOT, Road Tax and Insurance 

_ " In these circumstances you would need to write a letter into the Centre quoting the registration mark of the vehicle and explaining why it would not be taxed or declared off the road over the next year or so. You can ask for this correspondence to be entered on to the vehicle record. This would ensure that you would not receive any fines or penalties with regard to the fact that your car will not be taxed."_

It might mean UK wouldn't fine you but you leave yourself open to lots of issues once you've crossed the Channel.

If you wish to retain car on UK plates with UK MOT, road tax, insurance then you must be a UK Resident, to qualify as an ordinary UK Resident then you must live in UK and it is your normal place of residence for at least 183 days a year.


----------



## Guest

canoeman said:


> What your question and answer from DVLA takes no account of, is the EU law and each EU countries laws for registering Residence. They might be experts on MOT, tax and D/L but not on EU Residence requirements.
> 
> This statement of theirs is I believe misleading and inaccurate, because UK law clearly states that for a UK vehicle to be driven legally abroad it must be road legal in UK, therefore it must have valid MOT, Road Tax and Insurance
> 
> _ " In these circumstances you would need to write a letter into the Centre quoting the registration mark of the vehicle and explaining why it would not be taxed or declared off the road over the next year or so. You can ask for this correspondence to be entered on to the vehicle record. This would ensure that you would not receive any fines or penalties with regard to the fact that your car will not be taxed."_
> 
> It might mean UK wouldn't fine you but you leave yourself open to lots of issues once you've crossed the Channel.
> 
> If you wish to retain car on UK plates with UK MOT, road tax, insurance then you must be a UK Resident, to qualify as an ordinary UK Resident then you must live in UK and it is your normal place of residence for at least 183 days a year.



Hi, I'm not sure you understand:

Why would the DVLA make any comments about EU Residence requirements?

You attest that 
" UK law clearly states that for a UK vehicle to be driven legally abroad it must be road legal in UK" 
But how can this be true when (from a motoring organisation) _ UK vehicles are designed for driving on the left hand side of the road this will mean that when driving in France you will dazzle oncoming drivers. Failure to adapt your headlamps will render the vehicle UNFIT for the road. invalidating your motor insurance._

etc etc.


----------



## oronero

If you become a Portuguese resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign registered vehicle...

...even if you own said vehicle.

However if you are a British National with a second-home in Portugal then this new law could be of some benefit...but you need a pre 1960 vehicle from my understanding for the MOT exemption.


----------



## Guest

oronero said:


> If you become a Portuguese resident you are not permitted to drive a foreign registered vehicle...
> 
> ...even if you own said vehicle.
> 
> However if you are a British National with a second-home in Portugal then this new law could be of some benefit...but you need a pre 1960 vehicle from my understanding for the MOT exemption.


Hi,
Yes pre 1960.
If you have a UK reg vehicle pre 1960 on a V5 then it is possible to modify it but keep the VIN and still retain the V5. The price of pre 60s rusty junk with paperwork has started to rise. Things like Morris Oxford Mk5 estate with BMW 4 cyl diesel look like a good idea and my prewar BSA with it's post war engine IS a good idea.


----------



## canoeman

coleio said:


> Hi, I'm not sure you understand:
> 
> Why would the DVLA make any comments about EU Residence requirements?
> 
> You attest that
> " UK law clearly states that for a UK vehicle to be driven legally abroad it must be road legal in UK"
> But how can this be true when (from a motoring organisation) _ UK vehicles are designed for driving on the left hand side of the road this will mean that when driving in France you will dazzle oncoming drivers. Failure to adapt your headlamps will render the vehicle UNFIT for the road. invalidating your motor insurance._
> 
> etc etc.


DVLA well they wouldn't, which is my point it is not their area of expertise, but you or anyone deciding to travel outside UK with a UK vehicle have to abide by whatever laws govern either the car or your visitor, Resident status, your question as asked to DVLA and their answer is not possible given the rules & legislation on Residence, unless the car was not used whilst abroad, which rather negates the purpose.

I don't attest I'm reporting the facts, your quote is an additional requirement by insurance companies, and doesn't alter the fact that to legally drive a UK vehicle outside of the UK it must be road legal in UK.

There is no easy way around any of the legislation, whether a car is pre 1960 and reguires a MOT or not, what you can do is governed by your resident status.

As a Visitor you can bring a vehicle in for 183 days in total in any 12 month period.

As a Resident , you can initially matriculate a vehicle free of ISV providing you meet conditions or import a vehicle and pay ISV, you cannot drive any foreign plated vehicle

Or you can just ignore everything and run the associated risks.


----------



## Guest

Hi,

I'm not sure you understand.

How can

_" the fact that to legally drive a UK vehicle outside of the UK it must be road legal in UK "_

be true as driving in Europe, on the righthand side of the road, blinding on coming vehicles with your headlights is obviously against the law. Surely you have these facts wrong?


----------



## canoeman

Sorry but what's is it I'm supposed not to understand, for a UK car to be road legal in UK, it must have valid MOT if applicable, Road Tax and Insurance, to drive abroad it must be road legal in UK i.e. it must have valid MOT if applicable, Road Tax and Insurance.

Having to mask headlight beams or replace units is an *additional requirement* to drive in LHD countries, as are things like spare bulbs, vests, glasses, triangles, breathalysers in France, etc equally a EU LHD car would need to do same to drive in UK, or not an additional requirement if you took it to a RHD country.

I don't have my facts wrong, are you thinking that an additional requirement somehow makes the car not UK Road legal? which is not the case.


----------



## oronero

bikersteve said:


> Just a few mind you ?


*Bikersteve*, I have just finished chatting to another of my cousins in Portugal, he has just informed me that you are allowed to fit larger engines into cars than they originally started with.

It means that the humble 1100cc Escort can have a Cosworth turbocharged engine fitted. A special test is required and then the road tax is amended for the capacity but it seems that things have indeed moved on in Portugal.

I am not sure whether this means that you can put a Chevy V8 into a Ford Escort though. I am over in a few weeks time as soon as I have the relevant information and links I will post them on here.


----------



## canoeman

You have to re-register the car with the new engine numbers and if larger engine then new IUC, it's the same as importing a car it doesn't necessarily have to have original engine but that might not be the case with classics but those changes must be recorded on the cars documents otherwise matriculation would fail


----------



## oronero

I understand all of what you have said but apparently the modification and subsequent matriculation would not classify the vehicle as new, it would still be of the same year as originally matriculated.

My understanding is that the taxation would be based upon cc and co2 emissions, not necessarily at the rate for newly presented cars but at the rate appliciable to the year that car was first matriculated in Portugal.

It also seems that cars that have been de-registered can also be re-registered, though there is a charge for this.

As soon as I have some more info within the next few weeks I will post up on here, even if it is to say that I was wrong in some aspect.

The above is applicable if the car that is being modified was originally registered in Portugal, not your import.


----------



## canoeman

Yes
Not sure but tend to doubt it
Yes it's the Portuguese version of UK SORN


----------



## oronero

oronero said:


> *Bikersteve*, I have just finished chatting to another of my cousins in Portugal, he has just informed me that you are allowed to fit larger engines into cars than they originally started with.
> 
> It means that the humble 1100cc Escort can have a Cosworth turbocharged engine fitted. A special test is required and then the road tax is amended for the capacity but it seems that things have indeed moved on in Portugal.
> 
> I am not sure whether this means that you can put a Chevy V8 into a Ford Escort though. I am over in a few weeks time as soon as I have the relevant information and links I will post them on here.


The bit I wrote about fitting a Cosworth turbo-charged engine into an Escort is wrong. 

The modification must be such that homologation papers for the alterations existed at the time from the manufacturer. So the Escort mk1 can have a Lotus twin cam or Cosworth BDA engine fitted as there where homologation papers for those specific engines in the cars.

Fitting of different engines from alternative manufacturers is not allowed for street use. You cannot fit a Rover V8 into a Ford Anglia and obtain matriculation, though you can use things such as this on closed roads or trackdays, possibly even to race if the vehicle can fit into a suitable category.


----------



## travelling-man

Don't you just love it when some interfering, busy body politician or civil servant makes rules that will make your life awkward for no apparent rhyme or reason.


----------

