# Ok i believe you



## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

We spent our week out there researching and looking around, without our holiday heads on. It is grim. It broke my heart to see things that we saw. However, it hasn't swayed us. We will move out there. But we will bide our time and make sure we have money. We will go back and forth this year building up contacts and a base to set up business. Hubby is an auto electrician by trade and does mechanics, but the place is overrun with mechanics. There aren't so many auto leccys, and even less brilliant ones! So, I do thank you for telling us how it is, but we wouldn't have believed it unless we came and saw! We had a fab time though, and we are looking forward to spending lots of time over there this year!

Cara and Matt


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

mattandcara said:


> We spent our week out there researching and looking around, without our holiday heads on. It is grim. It broke my heart to see things that we saw. However, it hasn't swayed us. We will move out there. But we will bide our time and make sure we have money. We will go back and forth this year building up contacts and a base to set up business. Hubby is an auto electrician by trade and does mechanics, but the place is overrun with mechanics. There aren't so many auto leccys, and even less brilliant ones! So, I do thank you for telling us how it is, but we wouldn't have believed it unless we came and saw! We had a fab time though, and we are looking forward to spending lots of time over there this year!
> 
> Cara and Matt


What was the worst you saw?

I don't live there yet, but I'm curious to hear from someone who checked it out.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mattandcara said:


> We spent our week out there researching and looking around, without our holiday heads on. It is grim. It broke my heart to see things that we saw. However, it hasn't swayed us. We will move out there. But we will bide our time and make sure we have money. We will go back and forth this year building up contacts and a base to set up business. Hubby is an auto electrician by trade and does mechanics, but the place is overrun with mechanics. There aren't so many auto leccys, and even less brilliant ones! So, I do thank you for telling us how it is, but we wouldn't have believed it unless we came and saw! We had a fab time though, and we are looking forward to spending lots of time over there this year!
> 
> Cara and Matt


The last few days there has been one or two people complying about the "negative" comments by some forum members, but it;s great to see someone who has listened, done their homework and is going in to it with a good understanding!

Good luck! I hope everything works for you!


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

We went to the Carrefour a couple if times and there was a woman sat outside begging. Saw a few beggars but this woman struck a chord. She was maybe mid to late 30's, clean and clothed in clean traditional Spanish dress, so not homeless. I dare say she had children at home. She was clear in complexion so not a druggie and very pleasant and not a down and out. She was simply penniless and was throwing away her dignity to beg. We gave her a few euros the first time and she was do grateful. On the last day I bagged up all our food we had left over from our week and made Matt drive me up there. I gave her all our leftover food, bananas, apples, potatoes etc. I told her we were going home and she could have what we would be getting rid of, in the small amount of Spanish I can get by on, and she was so grateful. I was worried about offending her, I couldn't have been more wrong, she was hugging me and kissing my hand and her face will haunt me forever. She was in need and it broke my heart. I am sure she is not alone, I know she isn't, we saw enough people begging, but she looked like she would ordinarily have been a proud mother and member of a solid community.

Cara and Matt


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

mattandcara said:


> We went to the Carrefour a couple if times and there was a woman sat outside begging. Saw a few beggars but this woman struck a chord. She was maybe mid to late 30's, clean and clothed in clean traditional Spanish dress, so not homeless. I dare say she had children at home. She was clear in complexion so not a druggie and very pleasant and not a down and out. She was simply penniless and was throwing away her dignity to beg. We gave her a few euros the first time and she was do grateful. On the last day I bagged up all our food we had left over from our week and made Matt drive me up there. I gave her all our leftover food, bananas, apples, potatoes etc. I told her we were going home and she could have what we would be getting rid of, in the small amount of Spanish I can get by on, and she was so grateful. I was worried about offending her, I couldn't have been more wrong, she was hugging me and kissing my hand and her face will haunt me forever. She was in need and it broke my heart. I am sure she is not alone, I know she isn't, we saw enough people begging, but she looked like she would ordinarily have been a proud mother and member of a solid community.
> 
> Cara and Matt


How nice of you! 

It's a sad but common sight. I go to the house of my in laws most nights and as they live in the city I have to usually park a few streets away. I tend to leave about 11pm and this is just the time when everyone has taken their rubbish to the bins before the bin men come at midnight. Without fail every night I see people in the bins searching for anything that can find to either eat, or sell to make a few bob.

In the last year the amount of people has gone from occasional to guaranteed 3 or 4 every night and its so sad. Although some are eastern europeans there are also many spanish forced to do this. It's very hard to see someone pulling bread from a bin and eating it. Of course begging, and sifting through bins happens all over the world and always has but its definitely significantly higher now than a year ago and such a sad thing to see... When we are all at home on these cold nights, cranking up the gas fire one more notch and watching the TV, more and more people are out trying desperately to find something to eat or something they can sell tomorrow to make enough money to buy food.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You are very sensible. With your attitude you stand a better chance than most of succeeding.
Good luck.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mattandcara said:


> We went to the Carrefour a couple if times and there was a woman sat outside begging. Saw a few beggars but this woman struck a chord. She was maybe mid to late 30's, clean and clothed in clean traditional Spanish dress, so not homeless. I dare say she had children at home. She was clear in complexion so not a druggie and very pleasant and not a down and out. She was simply penniless and was throwing away her dignity to beg. We gave her a few euros the first time and she was do grateful. On the last day I bagged up all our food we had left over from our week and made Matt drive me up there. I gave her all our leftover food, bananas, apples, potatoes etc. I told her we were going home and she could have what we would be getting rid of, in the small amount of Spanish I can get by on, and she was so grateful. I was worried about offending her, I couldn't have been more wrong, she was hugging me and kissing my hand and her face will haunt me forever. She was in need and it broke my heart. I am sure she is not alone, I know she isn't, we saw enough people begging, but she looked like she would ordinarily have been a proud mother and member of a solid community.
> 
> Cara and Matt


But you must also remember that the beggars have been there ever since we have been in Spain, they aren't just a product of the crisis

It's a good thing you did, well done.


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

I realise that, as I say she wasn't alone, but she really struck a chord. It just makes you realise that as an ex-pat or immigrant, you have a get out, a safety net, whether you want to use it or not. But this woman had no alternative other than to sit outside a shop in the pueblo and beg.

Cara and Matt


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

I mean she was alone outside the shop, but she isn't alone in her plight.

Cara and Matt


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mattandcara said:


> I realise that, as I say she wasn't alone, but she really struck a chord. It just makes you realise that as an ex-pat or immigrant, you have a get out, a safety net, whether you want to use it or not. But this woman had no alternative other than to sit outside a shop in the pueblo and beg.
> 
> Cara and Matt


Wel yes, as I have said many a time. In the UK you can fall on benefits if it all goes to crap, but in Spain you have to reply on family, and if you havent got them to support you then you are on your own

Having said that, theres a hell of a lot of homeless people in the UK as well, so it doesnt always work


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

This is very true.

Cara and Matt


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Sirtravelot said:


> What was the worst you saw?
> 
> I don't live there yet, but I'm curious to hear from someone who checked it out.


Stravinsky's ponytail I'll wager!


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

I have a version of your avatar that is not quite so tame!

Cara and Matt


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mattandcara said:


> We spent our week out there researching and looking around, without our holiday heads on. It is grim. It broke my heart to see things that we saw. However, it hasn't swayed us. We will move out there. But we will bide our time and make sure we have money. We will go back and forth this year building up contacts and a base to set up business. Hubby is an auto electrician by trade and does mechanics, but the place is overrun with mechanics. There aren't so many auto leccys, and even less brilliant ones! So, I do thank you for telling us how it is, but we wouldn't have believed it unless we came and saw! We had a fab time though, and we are looking forward to spending lots of time over there this year!
> 
> Cara and Matt


Thank goodness you have "seen the light". And thank you for being humble enough to come back on here and tell us.

I'm glad you haven't given up though, even if you have to wait a few years.

Please, the next time you ask for some advice don't be so disinclined to follow it, ok


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

Never afraid of admitting when I am wrong or saying so! We do still aspire to live out our dream, but it does appear that we won't be doing so in the immediate future! I guess we will just have to have lots more breaks over there instead!!!

I was never stubborn or rude in my replies, just a little disappointed to hear how bad it is.


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

And we are still not human in our appearance - why won't it show the picture I am trying to upload!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mattandcara said:


> Never afraid of admitting when I am wrong or saying so! We do still aspire to live out our dream, but it does appear that we won't be doing so in the immediate future! I guess we will just have to have lots more breaks over there instead!!!
> 
> I was never stubborn or rude in my replies, just a little disappointed to hear how bad it is.


I don't think we were either - nice photo!


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

Thanks! Thought it was apt as we were in Puerto Banus last Thursday when this was taken!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

I have seen many beggars in many cities in the UK, but I admit I have seen even more in Spain. And as Stravinsky says, they have always been there (since we have been here anyway). But I do think that there are different types of beggars appearing on the streets (and knocking on doors) nowadays. Those you think wouldn't have wanted to be seen begging a few years ago. But who knows for sure?

Funny story:
When we first moved here, we travelled all over Spain in an RV, staying at local aires, campsites, wherever we could. And we brought our two Brit rescue dogs with us.
One day we were in Vitoria and had run out of food, so we locked up the RV and, dogs and all, went to the nearest Lidl. As we had the dogs with us, my husband stayed outside, sitting on a wall in the shade with them while I went in.
Now I'll admit, we weren't particularly well-dressed (jeans and t-shirts), as we were in our travelling gear.
Anyway, I got all of our shopping, grabbed the bags and went outside... to find my husband sitting there with the dogs, holding a large bag filled with tins of dog food.
A lady had passed by, stopped and patted our dogs, gone into Lidl and bought our dogs some food.
Despite my husband saying 'Muchas gracias, pero no es necesario', the woman had insisted, obviously thinking he was a beggar!
The dogs enjoyed the food anyway.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

I have got to hand credit to Matt and Cara. They came, they saw and discovered the truth of what many of us have been saying for years. It is not going to get any easier in Spain. Unemployment will continue to rise. The economy of Spain will slowly die probably along with the Euro. The children of current expats will find it more and more difficult to find work and will find there are more seeking more and getting less. 

There will be people who will say that we were wrong. They will come anyhow with ambition, drive and hope. Most will lose life savings and probably relationships. Better to beat an organised retreat than bear a total defeat.

I dont know when or how things will improve in Spain, but it is a long way off and probably not in my lifetime. And dont listen to those who say we are talking Spain into recession. We are already there and it is only a matter of time before we have Greecelike austerity measures.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time to write what you found. You sound like lovely people. I'm glad that you realise that we're not just being unkind on here and p****** on peoples dreams for the fun of it. We only tell it as it is and I'd hate it if people came back onto the forum and said we were lying. We are only trying to help

Dont give up your dream, but as you are now better informed, then you will be better prepared and more likely to make it work

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Funny story:
> When we first moved here, we travelled all over Spain in an RV, staying at local aires, campsites, wherever we could. And we brought our two Brit rescue dogs with us.
> One day we were in Vitoria and had run out of food, so we locked up the RV and, dogs and all, went to the nearest Lidl. As we had the dogs with us, my husband stayed outside, sitting on a wall in the shade with them while I went in.
> Now I'll admit, we weren't particularly well-dressed (jeans and t-shirts), as we were in our travelling gear.
> ...


I have a similar story.
When we lived in Madrid at the end of the street there was some kind of church charity that gave people a meal a day and set them up with second hand clothes and the like. Every day there was a long line of sad and sorry people waiting for their handouts.One day on my way to work, so quite nicely dressed, I took 2 carrier bags of clothes round. When the guy came to the door he looked me up and down and told me they had nothing left, that I was too late and to come back tomorrow!! 

When he saw that I just stood there with my mouth open, shocked to the core, he said "Oh, I see you've come to leave something, not to take something away" and grabbed the bags off me!!!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have a similar story.
> When we lived in Madrid at the end of the street there was some kind of church charity that gave people a meal a day and set them up with second hand clothes and the like. Every day there was a long line of sad and sorry people waiting for their handouts.One day on my way to work, so quite nicely dressed, I took 2 carrier bags of clothes round. When the guy came to the door he looked me up and down and told me they had nothing left, that I was too late and to come back tomorrow!!
> 
> When he saw that I just stood there with my mouth open, shocked to the core, he said "Oh, I see you've come to leave something, not to take something away" and grabbed the bags off me!!!


So Pesky you're a closet bag lady. Always been suspicious about you 

There was an article in the spanish press last week that the new middle class poor - those that still have good clothes but no income - find it harder to get charity, help and sympathy. I guess the job centers (joke) should offer courses on how to not only be poor but look poor


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

There's getting to be a real problem in the UK now, with organised groups of Eastern Europeans begging. They are dropped off at their stance in flash cars, don their begging uniform - and would probably hit you over the head with it, if you offered them a bag of food.

Sales of the Big Issue are suffering as people will no longer give their money to these people, who are probably " earning" more than the average worker. There are reports of these groups using threats/ violence to remove UK people from their stances, and yet under EU rules they are "entitled" to this "employment".

The joke about the beggars' (yes plural because the one dog appears to have many owners) dog, is no longer a joke.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yep! agree with you brocher, I'd say that it is not only Eastern Europeans, beggars are coming into Uk from all parts of the world, some gain access into EU countries by any means, legal or not, then try to get to Uk for the benefits they get there and NHS, what a mess.
This evening they have released Abu Qatarda, he is such dangerous influence, the government don't want him there either, but to effectively watch his every step, he is costing the tax payer loads of money in just policing him, let alone all the benefits his family receive. There is bound to be some 'revolt' by his revolting followers, God help the UK. I know Spain has financial and employment issues, but I feel safer here because the Spanish government will not tolerate half of what UK government does, and the police here will use more 'effective force' against illegals, more than a swift kick up the jacksy, if they have to.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm saddened to see this thread degenerate into immigrant-bashing. Nobody chooses begging as a career, and nobody has to give money to beggars if they don't want to. Begging is a nasty side effect of mass unemployment and economic inequality. Just thank your stars you aren't walking in their shoes.

Now :focus: please!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm saddened to see this thread degenerate into immigrant-bashing. Nobody chooses begging as a career, and nobody has to give money to beggars if they don't want to. Begging is a nasty side effect of mass unemployment and economic inequality. Just thank your stars you aren't walking in their shoes.
> 
> Now :focus: please!


I think you're misreading it. I understood the thread to be discussing the rise in immigrants who actually run begging businesses in the UK to make money, so actually are choosing to beg as a career, which is not helping genuine beggars???????

Jo xxx


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are some genuine beggars here in Spain who are really down on their luck, and some who will dress up in rags and do a begging business here as well. I saw one outside Lidl,only a few weeks ago, he had a message written on a piece of cardboard, a lady came out and gave him a whole chicken she had just bought, then she got in her car and drove away, you should have seen the look of disgust on his face when he was only given food, he was quite well built, so not exactly starving.
In Spain the real people down on their luck will 'raid' the bins looking for food, and things they can recycle and sell, or try and work hard for little money which is far more admirable than raiding tax payers money in benefits, or stealing which is becoming worse in the Uk. Sad but it is true.
The original poster was shocked by what they saw in Spain, and realised the present economic situation is not so good at the moment, but I would say all around the UK is a lot worse, due to all kinds of things. I really hope that things improve for all the people of Spain, and it gets up and running again, so that the OP can come over, enjoy the sun, and maybe employ a couple of young Spaniards, don't give up on the dream, this recession can't last forever.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm saddened to see this thread degenerate into immigrant-bashing. Nobody chooses begging as a career, and nobody has to give money to beggars if they don't want to. Begging is a nasty side effect of mass unemployment and economic inequality. Just thank your stars you aren't walking in their shoes.
> 
> Now :focus: please!


Actually, the sad truth is that some beggars do choose to beg as a career. Begging is a nasty side effect of the free movement of peoples, itself a product of the free market. 
I know that rags like The Daily Mail highlight the cases of professional beggars and thieves who have migrated to the UK mainly from Romania ands Slovakia, many of them Roma. But the phenomenum does exist and it is largely culture-related - begging is seen as an occupation, not a response to destitution. Neither is it always motivated by poverty and in that it's similar to human trafficking.
There is a real problem in many UK cities of thieving and begging by immigrants. 
You hsave to think why free movement of labour is so desirable. It has nothing to do with 'internationalism' -a dubious, empty concept - and everything to do with the principles of the free market. It impacts on national cultures, family life, wage levels and leads to dislocation in deracinated individuals many of whom turn to fundamentalist religion to give some sense of identity. It also leads to right-wing backlashes in the so-called 'host' countries.
As for the Abu Qatada issue....if I spoke out in the UK against Islam in the way he has against the West and Christianity I would find myself in deep trouble. I would without doubt be prosecuted. 
Some years ago I made a speech at TUC supporting the rights of women in Iraq. Before speaking I indicated to fellow trades unionists what I would be saying about oppression of women in Muslim societies. I was warned and told I would be viewed by many as a 'cultural imperialist'. Well, as you can imagine, that fired me up. I added a piece to the effect that if speaking out against honour killings, forced marriage and female circumcision meant I was a cultural imperialist then I would proudly wear a Tshirt with words to that effect.
There was much applause...because the audience was largely composed of working men and women who know bull**** when it's put before them and pretending all cultures are equal is.. excremento de torros.
.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Those who wish to promote the rich culture in Spain, and the 'fascinating Moorish history of Granada' in particular, may object to this, but, from what I have experienced and from comments from a wide variety of ordinary Spanish people living in Granada and surrounding towns, there is no doubt that a certain section of the gypsy population here do make begging their living, along with fleecing unsuspecting tourists.

When we first came to Granada, I thought this was probably based upon urban myth and local prejudice, but now I know different. 

In Granada city, there are many different types of beggars. Most of them sit quietly along the main streets, holding cards telling us about their plight. Many look down at the pavement, never looking you in the eye. Some seem definitely genuine, others, genuine or not, provide a form of street entertainment, singing, playing all types of instruments (many home made).

But those whom Spanish friends have identified as gypsy beggars, are not so silent (or entertaining). They will sometimes accost you in the street, barring your way to ask for money. When you refuse, they often get belligerent. Many of them bring their children, who split off into begging groups, nicer than their parents, but still very demanding.
(Incidentally, according to our neighbours, we don't look English...until we open our mouths , but for anyone who looks like a tourist, from any country, being stopped in the street by a gypsy family is to be expected.)

Even though we live a twenty minute drive from the city, we get regular visits from gypsy families (and as some kind soul told them we are English, we get more visits than most...). 
Jehovah's Witnesses visit once or twice a year, gypsies visit weekly. 

But having said all this, we have seen a sharp rise in the number of visiting beggars who we _think_ are East European. Like the gypsy families, they arrive in cars at the edge of the village, and then make their way through the streets, knocking doors.
But they are much more persistent, and, unlike the gypsies, who will usually not try doors to see if you are really there, these new beggars will rattle your doors to see if they can get in and some will try to enter if you do answer the door.
I must admit I am glad we have dogs in the house.

Now don't get me wrong. We were well aware of the gypsy situation in Granada when we arrived here and see it as part of life.
But something which was almost acceptable tradition is now getting a whole lot worse, especially with the new groups of beggars.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Some years ago I made a speech at TUC supporting the rights of women in Iraq. Before speaking I indicated to fellow trades unionists what I would be saying about oppression of women in Muslim societies. I was warned and told I would be viewed by many as a 'cultural imperialist'. Well, as you can imagine, that fired me up. I added a piece to the effect that if speaking out against honour killings, forced marriage and female circumcision meant I was a cultural imperialist then I would proudly wear a Tshirt with words to that effect.
> There was much applause...because the audience was largely composed of working men and women who know bull**** when it's put before them and pretending all cultures are equal is.. excremento de torros.
> .


A few years ago, I was doing a research paper on women and the burqa and had found that many women actually welcomed the opportunity to travel around London, covered from head to toe, because they felt safe from prying eyes, and for some because they didn't have to bother about getting their make up perfect first thing in the morning!
However, all of the women I interviewed were totally opposed to honour killings and many were also opposed to female circumcision and forced marriages.
Like the response made by working people at the TUC, so different from the accepted academic view, I find it's good to speak to ordinary people affected by these issues.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree with JoJo, I dont think its immigrant bashing .... especially at the end of the day we would be bashing ourselves wouldnt we! 

I _do_ remember in Bilbao being followed by women with babies all the time who were asking for money. However we were there for quite a few days and it eventually dawned on us that these were communal babies. The women were taking turns with the same babies, and in their rest periods were popping down the shops or having a coffee. I even saw one of the changeovers!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I _do_ remember in Bilbao being followed by women with babies all the time who were asking for money.


Well if you'd waited for the chemist to open you wouldn't be in this mess now!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Those who wish to promote the rich culture in Spain, and the 'fascinating Moorish history of Granada' in particular, may object to this, but, from what I have experienced and from comments from a wide variety of ordinary Spanish people living in Granada and surrounding towns, there is no doubt that a certain section of the gypsy population here do make begging their living, along with fleecing unsuspecting tourists.
> 
> When we first came to Granada, I thought this was probably based upon urban myth and local prejudice, but now I know different.
> 
> ...


Very similar to the situation with Roma in the Czech Republic.
It's true that there is prejudice against Roma even among educated people -Czechs refer to themselves as 'whites' - but tbh few of us would wish to live near a Roma community. In three years we experienced five attempted muggings, all from Roma.
(We fought back). It's a chicken and egg situation and the key to it all has to be education but the extended hand has to be grasped and for deeply ingrained historical and cultural reasons it isn't.
Nothing romantic about Roma/gypsy culture: it's sordid, alcohol-fuelled, linked to prostitution, crime....


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Nothing romantic about Roma/gypsy culture: it's sordid, alcohol-fuelled, linked to prostitution, crime....


Sad, but true.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> I agree with JoJo, I dont think its immigrant bashing .... especially at the end of the day we would be bashing ourselves wouldnt we!
> 
> I _do_ remember in Bilbao being followed by women with babies all the time who were asking for money. However we were there for quite a few days and it eventually dawned on us that these were communal babies. The women were taking turns with the same babies, and in their rest periods were popping down the shops or having a coffee. I even saw one of the changeovers!


But do you really think they would resort to this if they could get real jobs? it's demoralising, dangerous and illegal. Nobody is forced to give them anything; I very much doubt they would retaliate with violence, as someone suggested above (hitting you on the head with a shopping bag?) because that would land the whole crew in trouble. They need to stay under the radar.

Any business has to maximise its revenue, even a begging business, and people are more likely to give to women with babies than shifty-looking blokes. My busker friend always got more when he had his dog with him.

I first encountered street-beggars in Oxford, in the early 80s, shortly after Thatcher changed the rules on housing benefit. Begging is here to stay, and if we are going to get upset about it we should be looking critically at the system that produces it, rather than condemning the victims.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But do you really think they would resort to this if they could get real jobs? it's demoralising, dangerous and illegal. Nobody is forced to give them anything; I very much doubt they would retaliate with violence, as someone suggested above (hitting you on the head with a shopping bag?) because that would land the whole crew in trouble. They need to stay under the radar.
> 
> Any business has to maximise its revenue, even a begging business, and people are more likely to give to women with babies than shifty-looking blokes. My busker friend always got more when he had his dog with him.
> 
> I first encountered street-beggars in Oxford, in the early 80s, shortly after Thatcher changed the rules on housing benefit. Begging is here to stay, and if we are going to get upset about it we should be looking critically at the system that produces it, rather than condemning the victims.


I agree with you but only in part. You are clearly an extremely kind person with a positive view of human nature. 
I am a confirmed old cynic. It comes from years of teaching and being a Councillor in an extremely deprived area.
Yes, it's failures in the system that drive some people to beg. But very often these people are architects of their own misfortune. They are substance abusers or have failed to take advantage of the education system to get qualifications, or just made bad choices. At some point each individual has to take responsibility for him/herself.
Many Romanian and Slovakian Roma beggars see it as a job. Most Eastern European migrants come to work as plumbers, construction workers, au pairs etc. These people however see begging as their profession, along with a bit of pickpocketing and other types of thieving. If they worked they would be able to do only low-paid, unpleasant and boring jobs. Crime is easier and more lucrative. 
Not everything in the world can be blamed on the 'system'. Human nature often plays a pivotal role in human degradation and despair.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> ...I first encountered street-beggars in Oxford, in the early 80s, shortly after Thatcher changed the rules on housing benefit.


Absolutely! All this begging - it's her fault. You didn't used to see it pre-Thatcher...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Absolutely! All this begging - it's her fault. You didn't used to see it pre-Thatcher...


Tbh...I don't remember seeing beggars before Thatcher's time in office.
OH says there have always been beggars...well, she's from Glasgow But she thinks there were more of them in the 1980s.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

There have been beggars everywhere throughout history including the 60' and 70's when I was walking to and from school in the centre of Bristol. The only increase I have seen was in the number of beggars-of-choice - well to do young people who choose to lead a street life in summer when the weather is good - I know there are some who do this because I have spoken to them.

So to sum up, you may not have seen them for whatever reason but they were there. To suggest that there were none before Thatcher is, frankly, wrong.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> tbh few of us would wish to live near a Roma community.


I've lived _in_ one for six years.....no problem at all.
Know all the families, extended families.....the "elders" of the community....I even get invites to weddings, christenings etc.
I'm not the only Guiri in Spain in this position....there's also a Brit guy in Montefrio who's accorded the same respect.



mrypg9 said:


> Nothing romantic about Roma/gypsy culture: it's sordid, alcohol-fuelled, linked to prostitution, crime....


What people don't understand is there are "levels" within Roma communities.....exactly as with Brits, Spanish etc.
We all have good people.....and we all have bad people....and one generalisation can't cover everybody within their respective group.
Plus the Roma in different countries have inherited specific attitudes and behaviour related to that country......so Roma in Eastern Europe will be very different from here.

My experience is that as Brits we need to be more worried about other factions......because sure as hell they'll be the ones who'll try to turn you over.
No Roma has ever lied, cheated, stolen, or disrespected us......and that's the only faction in this country that I can say that about.
So live and let live I say!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> There have been beggars everywhere throughout history including the 60' and 70's when I was walking to and from school in the centre of Bristol. The only increase I have seen was in the number of beggars-of-choice - well to do young people who choose to lead a street life in summer when the weather is good - I know there are some who do this because I have spoken to them.
> 
> So to sum up, you may not have seen them for whatever reason but they were there. To suggest that there were none before Thatcher is, frankly, wrong.


I didn't say there weren't any, I said I hadn't seen any. I volunteered at a homelessness hostel in the early 80s and didn't meet any of your lifestyle beggars (though if you say they exist, I'm sure they must do). There is plenty of evidence that the number of people living on the street increased rapidly at that time.

But we're getting off the point. Why should begging _not_ be regarded as a legitimate way of earning a living? As you say, it's gone on throughout history and will always be with us. Why do we get so upset about it? Is it because it makes us feel guilty?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

XTreme said:


> I've lived _in_ one for six years.....no problem at all.
> Know all the families, extended families.....the "elders" of the community....I even get invites to weddings, christenings etc.
> I'm not the only Guiri in Spain in this position....there's also a Brit guy in Montefrio who's accorded the same respect.
> 
> ...


I hear what you say and I understand what you are saying. But my experience of Roma and Roma communities in the Czech Republic is quite different, as you rightly say..
Don't get me wrong - whenever I heard downright racist comments I refuted them.
But as for 'live and let live'......being mugged five times in less than three years, each time by Roma...that exhortation should be levelled at the Roma! 
I also agree about other elements here in Spain. We've been ripped off by a Brit, a Moroccan and a South American. 
I know very little about Roma here in Spain but to be perfectly honest my experiences in Prague have put me off closer acquaintance, although I know it's wrong to generalise.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I didn't say there weren't any, I said I hadn't seen any. I volunteered at a homelessness hostel in the early 80s and didn't meet any of your lifestyle beggars (though if you say they exist, I'm sure they must do). There is plenty of evidence that the number of people living on the street increased rapidly at that time.
> 
> But we're getting off the point. Why should begging _not_ be regarded as a legitimate way of earning a living? As you say, it's gone on throughout history and will always be with us. Why do we get so upset about it? Is it because it makes us feel guilty?


I don't really have strong feelings about it but too many beggars in the UK especially the Eastern Europeans are aggressive in their begging.
I certainly don't feel guilty...why should I or anyone else feel guily about a Slovakian gypsy beggar??


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> I know very little about Roma here in Spain but to be perfectly honest my experiences in Prague have put me off closer acquaintance, although I know it's wrong to generalise.


The thing is you sometimes have to step back a bit and think about it.
You were mugged in the Czech republic by Roma.....but what's their nationality? Czech!
Roma here? Spanish!
There's a huge difference in culture between Eastern Europeans and the Spanish people.....so you would find them different here.
I'm not saying there's not bad ones there.....of course there is....we've all got them in our nationalities. And that's the key.......different nationalities.

You should take a close look and make your own mind up. Obviously the Spaniards have their POV and that's never going to change.....and Brits just recite this mantra without having any personal experience whatsoever.
You mark my words......and I know this for a fact! Most of the petty crime that goes down is done by the Spanish. Then when the Police turn up everybody just shrugs their shoulders and blames it on the Gitanos.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> But do you really think they would resort to this if they could get real jobs? it's demoralising, dangerous and illegal. Nobody is forced to give them anything; I very much doubt they would retaliate with violence, as someone suggested above (hitting you on the head with a shopping bag?) because that would land the whole crew in trouble. They need to stay under the radar.
> 
> Any business has to maximise its revenue, even a begging business, and people are more likely to give to women with babies than shifty-looking blokes. My busker friend always got more when he had his dog with him.
> 
> I first encountered street-beggars in Oxford, in the early 80s, shortly after Thatcher changed the rules on housing benefit. Begging is here to stay, and if we are going to get upset about it we should be looking critically at the system that produces it, rather than condemning the victims.



Alca, in no way am I immigrant bashing- that would be rather stupid when contributing to an Immigrant forum. I have no problem with the many, many immigrants in the UK now who are law abiding and hardworking. 

Without going into the wrongs and politics of a system (shouldn't happen anywhere in the world, let alone "developed" countries") that genuinely reduces some people to begging, and being reduced to searching bins for food/ clothing - of course, I have the deepest, deepest sympathy for anyone in that situation.

Although it must be said, that there is also a growing problem of bins being searched for personal data, for ID fraud.

But seriously, yes, there truly are people who are operating in organised groups as beggars - many are of the nationality mentioned by others, which I had refrained from naming to prevent accusations of discrimination. These people have found that if they come to the UK in particular, they can claim alls sorts of benefits, and live in very comfortable, subsided accomodation. Top it off with a little begging, and maybe some petty crime and they live one *extremely *comfortable life. 

Why - because if they took a manual/ unskilled job they would have to live a far more meagre lifestlye - like most of us actually do. 

"...hitting you on the head with a shopping bag.." - fair enough, that is a slightly flippant comment but I stand by the sentiment of it. Intimidation - and worse - certainly feature with these gangs, often directly at the expense of those who are genuinely in difficluty, and deserving of a little help; as in the situation of the Big Issue sellers being forced out.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

brocher said:


> Alca, in no way am I immigrant bashing- that would be rather stupid when contributing to an Immigrant forum. I have no problem with the many, many immigrants in the UK now who are law abiding and hardworking.
> 
> Without going into the wrongs and politics of a system (shouldn't happen anywhere in the world, let alone "developed" countries") that genuinely reduces some people to begging, and being reduced to searching bins for food/ clothing - of course, I have the deepest, deepest sympathy for anyone in that situation.
> 
> ...


Thrax is right, of course. Culture determines behaviour and Czech, Slovak and Romanian gypsies will have had different experiences from those who are Spanish. The one constant factor is prejudice which sadly is often the result of negative experience.
Intimidation...well, it depends as to how easily you are intimidated. The elderly and vulnerable will always be more easily subjected to intimidation. But I will say this:
Eastern European immigrants have had totally different experiences from we comfortable Brits. After fifty years of socialism and a complete absence of civil society, trust and a sense of the importance of law and social cohesion is lacking in many people. We in the West know only of the 'intellectuals', the Havels, the Lech Walencas. Few have seen the squalor and poverty that characterises these societies. Alcoholism is so commonplace in Eastern Europe and with that goes violence.
In my area of the UK, the first wave of immigration was from Portugal.These were mainly families and their children. They settled quickly and peacefully. 
Then came the Poles, the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. These were mainly young unattached men and women who took unskilled labour in agriculture and food processing. With them came a wave of crime...driving offences and alcohol-fuelled violence with knives as the weapon of choice. Their attitude to women was completely at odds with the accepted western convention and women from eight to eighty complained of street harassment often of a very persistent kind.
Begging was just one of the nuisances.
As I see it, it's no wonder that for many people hostility to this mass immigration -for that's what it is -is an understandable reaction. Wages are depressed, town centres become altered...the whole local culture becomes radically changed.
Did people have a say in this? Of course not. Who benefits? Not indigenous working people. This is another result of unfettered globalisation and to defend it on 'internationalist' grounds is to miss the point.
If you can't understand why many lower-paid working people turn to the BNP or UKIP I suggest you pay a visit to Wisbech or Newark.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

The problem, I think, with debating the term begging, is that we all appear to have a different view as to what begging actually is.

For example, those who search for food in rubbish bins, are they beggars? 
From those I have seen, they vary from the homeless and desperate, to alcoholics (who may have somewhere to live) looking for food and ****, to elderly people who just like to rummage to see what they can find, to students and other young people who have heard that searching through bins outside cafes and supermarkets provides a good source of cheap food.

The same with those who openly ask for money.
These vary from those who sit, eyes cast down, on street pavements, to those who try to entertain for money, to highly organised gangs with families and transport,
Then there are those who see an opportunity to make a bit of extra cash. Like the elderly guy mentioned in another thread, who constantly asks for money because his car has been towed away. Is he a beggar? He certainly appears to make his living from asking for money. 

And I don't think this is a racist issue at all. From what I have seen, beggars and opportunists come from all nationalities.
But having said that.... I have yet to see a black person asking for money without offering something in exchange (usually rip off DVDs which are very welcome in our village ).
Perhaps I live in the wrong area?

As to whether begging is intimidating, it all depends on the situation.

My husband is one of those people who wants a quiet life. He will give money to someone stopping him in the street, or knocking at the door, in the hopes they will then leave him alone (luckily he wouldn't be fooled by the car towed away situation). 
Me, I want to know that the person is genuine or at least trying, so I may give to street beggars and street entertainers. But I hate having my way barred by someone asking for cash, or banging insistently on my door as if they have the right to my hard-earned money. I also feel, particularly with the door knockers, that once you give you are known as a soft touch. So, right or wrong, I will usually say no (or refuse to answer the door).

Do I feel intimidated?
If I am on my own in certain situations, then yes. I'm a small framed female who has the intelligence to see that a group of people with one intent can present a threat.
That's not racist, or culturally naive. Just me looking after myself.

Incidentally, the problem for Big Issue sellers isn't only that they have been overtaken by others, but that the cost of the Big Issue is now prohibitive for some hard pressed working families who used to buy it.
And that's a real shame.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You are right. Begging isn't a racist issue.
And thankfully now neither is immigration. It's become an issue of numbers and infrastructure not skin colour.
I've spoken with British -born second generation Caribbean friends who moan bitterly about all the foreigners taking jobs and lowering wages.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Solwriter said:


> The problem, I think, with debating the term begging, is that we all appear to have a different view as to what begging actually is.
> 
> For example, those who search for food in rubbish bins, are they beggars?
> From those I have seen, they vary from the homeless and desperate, to alcoholics (who may have somewhere to live) looking for food and ****, to elderly people who just like to rummage to see what they can find, to students and other young people who have heard that searching through bins outside cafes and supermarkets provides a good source of cheap food.
> ...


IMO the con-man is in the carpark is the biggest crook, because he is taking money under false pretences. The Romanian girl or Moroccan youth who keeps the 50 cent coin in my supermarket trolley after helping me unload it is just being enterprising. 

We are getting an increasing number of people knocking the door, offering various "products" from edible weeds they've picked in the campo to dog-eared photos of saints, just for a euro. I suppose we'll become known as a soft touch, but we can't say no. There is genuine hardship here with 35% unemployment and we have so much more than they do.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> IMO the con-man is in the carpark is the biggest crook, because he is taking money under false pretences. The Romanian girl or Moroccan youth who keeps the 50 cent coin in my supermarket trolley after helping me unload it is just being enterprising.
> 
> We are getting an increasing number of people knocking the door, offering various "products" from edible weeds they've picked in the campo to dog-eared photos of saints, just for a euro. I suppose we'll become known as a soft touch, but we can't say no. There is genuine hardship here with 35% unemployment and we have so much more than they do.


I hope you take the photos of saints...you never know. 
OH is a soft touch...when Caritas collects in our local supermarket she fills a trolley with everything from necessities to luxuries.
Saint Theresa said that if ten people come begging and nine may be fraudulent you should give to all for the sake of the one in need....


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I usually shout "OIGA" loudly while shoving my trolley disdainfully towards the old hag sitting down at the trolley park. It gives me a satisfying feeling of superiority as the crone struggles to her feet muttering 'gracias - gracias' and starts waddling towards me across the car park to claim her Euro from the slot. Especially as I always pride myself in finding a free trolley so there isn't a Euro in there...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I usually shout "OIGA" loudly while shoving my trolley disdainfully towards the old hag sitting down at the trolley park. It gives me a satisfying feeling of superiority as the crone struggles to her feet muttering 'gracias - gracias' and starts waddling towards me across the car park to claim her Euro from the slot. Especially as I always pride myself in finding a free trolley so there isn't a Euro in there...


That old hag could be me in ten years' time.
Be kind...remember the words of the blessed Saint Theresa..

Incidentally, I've got a new mobile...and one of the ringtones is a really musical version of 'Ave Maria'....I couldn't resist....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I usually shout "OIGA" loudly while shoving my trolley disdainfully towards the old hag sitting down at the trolley park. It gives me a satisfying feeling of superiority as the crone struggles to her feet muttering 'gracias - gracias' and starts waddling towards me across the car park to claim her Euro from the slot. Especially as I always pride myself in finding a free trolley so there isn't a Euro in there...


If I didn't know you better ....


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## mattandcara (Jan 29, 2012)

Bloody hell!!!!! What happened to my innocent post???!!!! Lol!!!!

Cara and Matt


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mattandcara said:


> Bloody hell!!!!! What happened to my innocent post???!!!! Lol!!!!
> 
> Cara and Matt


Sorry, we do get a bit carried away sometimes 

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

XTreme said:


> I've lived _in_ one for six years.....no problem at all.
> Know all the families, extended families.....the "elders" of the community....I even get invites to weddings, christenings etc.


That's because they know that you came out of Swansea............. alive !!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> That's because they know that you came out of Swansea............. alive !!


Very true Richard....in fact I'm even giving the Gitanos formal lessons in lying, cheating, stealing, giro fraud, and advanced ramraiding techniques.


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