# Moving to Madrid - jobs?!



## Ameliatw95 (Jun 28, 2020)

Hello all,

My partner and I (25/26 years old) would love to move to Madrid for 6 months - 1 year in 2021. Our main concern is jobs and the importance of lessening any impact moving abroad may have on our careers. That being said;

1) my partner is a doctor and is hoping to use his F3 year to complete a 6 month fellowship in paediatrics and then complete a 6 month placement in a hospital in Madrid. Do you know if getting a job in a Spanish hospital is relatively straightforward and any resources we can use to guide him towards obtaining employment there?

2) I am currently working in the science sector. Do you know of any Spanish companies that would accept English speakers? The bigger question is; is getting a job as an English speaker in Madrid quite difficult (excluding English teaching jobs that sadly only seem to offer 9 month placements)? 

We are both learning Spanish so are hoping to be relatively proficient (B1/B2) by the time we move. 

Your advice would be very appreciated. Currently we’re just feeling rather overwhelmed at the whole prospect.

Thanks,
Amelia


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I would recommend that you google "oposiciones". It's the legal and (amazingly) uncontroversial way that Spain prevents foreigners from working in the public sector.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Ameliatw95 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My partner and I (25/26 years old) would love to move to Madrid for 6 months - 1 year in 2021. Our main concern is jobs and the importance of lessening any impact moving abroad may have on our careers. That being said;
> 
> ...


Are you both British? I'm guessing that you are from what you have written

While he might be able to get a placement - I have no idea how it works for what I imagine is essentially an academic placement - nor how Brexit will affect how things might work at the moment. His academic advisors ought to be able to help. 

As for you working here - any company will have to prove that there are no EU citizens available for any position in order to secure a work visa - & that would have to be arranged before you arrive.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ameliatw95 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My partner and I (25/26 years old) would love to move to Madrid for 6 months - 1 year in 2021. Our main concern is jobs and the importance of lessening any impact moving abroad may have on our careers. That being said;
> 
> ...


I have been a TEFL teacher for @ 25yrs in Madrid and surroundings. Yes, it's difficult to get year round work and also the pay is difficult to live off...
You don't say what your nationality is, but if you're from the UK everything changes at the end of this year, doesn't it? After that jobs need to be offered to EU nationals first and only then can a company possibly employ someone from outside the EU.


I don't know specifically what the situation is RE: doctors and scientists, but you won't be able to work in the public sector as you have to do public exams for that which are highly competitive. there is also the fact the you only want to come for 6 months, not sure how that would work out. 

As far as language goes, in the medical and scientific fields English is usually prized, but in paeds and as a fellowship, I'm not sure
Information about living in Spain here
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain#working-in-spain


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You don't say what your nationality is, but if you're from the UK everything changes at the end of this year, doesn't it? After that jobs need to be offered to EU nationals first and only then can a company possibly employ someone from outside the EU.


Sorry, that wasn't very clear. What I mean is that after December British people will no longer have the same rights as people from the EU. Jobs are offered to people from the EU first. People from outside the EU have to have a job offer and then apply for a work visa. It's a more difficult procedure than if you are a member of the EU.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Ameliatw95 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My partner and I (25/26 years old) would love to move to Madrid for 6 months - 1 year in 2021. Our main concern is jobs and the importance of lessening any impact moving abroad may have on our careers. That being said;
> 
> ...



As an F3, I would have thought he would have to have to be fluent in Spanish to work in any of the medical facilities. As a retired nurse, I looked at transferring here some years ago but fluent Spanish was, obviously, requirement. Also, as I’m sure your partner would know, many Spanish DRs are moving to work abroad and when I retired 6 years ago many moved to the U.K. currently. As it stands now EU or Swiss doctor with full GMC registration (post-F1) is entitled to train in any other EU country (and Switzerland). However, due to Brexit, this may change you will be expected to speak the local language to a suitable level. I know of a consultant surgeon in the U.K. who has contacts within Spain, maybe that’s a good way of getting a foot in the door, ask senior colleagues they tend to have many contacts abroad.

Good luck


----------



## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

Would Erasmus be of any use? If they themselves can't help they may know an organisation that can.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ccm47 said:


> Would Erasmus be of any use? If they themselves can't help they may know an organisation that can.


The UK has pulled out of Erasmus


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> The UK has pulled out of Erasmus


I wasn't aware of that. Have you a link?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Turtles said:


> I would recommend that you google "oposiciones". It's the legal and (amazingly) uncontroversial way that Spain prevents foreigners from working in the public sector.


Why do you think that foreigners can't sit oposiciones?

As you imply, EU law makes Spain (and every other EU country) allow all EU citizens the right to work for public authorities except in positions of national security where nationality may be a risk factor. Spain abides by this law.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chopera said:


> I wasn't aware of that. Have you a link?


Well maybe not exactly pulled out - yet.

But in January they voted against an amendment to 'seek to continue' the scheme.




This is the current status https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/the-transition-period


There's plenty online for Erasmus España 2021 as far as becas etc are concerned... but I failed to find anything for Erasmus UK 2021 except 'What might happen' info., if that tells you anything


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Regarding oposiciones, it would be a rare foreigner who would move to Spain and then devote years to studying for exams that _just might_ lead to a job in one of the 17 Spanish regions. In the UK, if you want to be a teacher, you send a cv to a school that takes your fancy and hope for an interview. The oposiciones system claims to be the only way to prevent corrupt parceling out of jobs to the favoured few. It actually serves as a significant barrier to freedom of movement, not just between European countries, but between the regions of Spain.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Even if you want to do opociciones I would imagine it is near to impossible for someone who lacks at a minimum C1 level spanish to be successful. The number of years you would need to devote to gaining that level of spanish and then discover it is still a lottery as to whether you were offered a position and then finding you have to move to a completely different part of Spain makes it really a non-starter.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Turtles said:


> Regarding oposiciones, it would be a rare foreigner who would move to Spain and then devote years to studying for exams that _just might_ lead to a job in one of the 17 Spanish regions. In the UK, if you want to be a teacher, you send a cv to a school that takes your fancy and hope for an interview. The oposiciones system claims to be the only way to prevent corrupt parceling out of jobs to the favoured few. It actually serves as a significant barrier to freedom of movement, not just between European countries, but between the regions of Spain.


So you moved to a country, presumably of your own free will, and now complain about their systems and procedures (which are compliant with applicable international law) because they aren't the same as the way things are done in your native country?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Even if you want to do opociciones I would imagine it is near to impossible for someone who lacks at a minimum C1 level spanish to be successful. The number of years you would need to devote to gaining that level of spanish and then discover it is still a lottery as to whether you were offered a position and then finding you have to move to a completely different part of Spain makes it really a non-starter.


For most Spaniards, they study and train for years for a very limited number of jobs and often have to relocate (even internationally) just to get a job when they graduate. The path to a civil servant's job isn't that much different.

If you come from abroad and enter this system, you have to accept that. It is not victimisation, it's just the way it is. 

There are Europeans working as civil servants in Spain. When I was burgled in Madrid, and English policeman attended the call. But of course he got off his ar$e and studied Spanish and the oposiciones to get that job, instead of sitting around complaining about it....


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

AFAIK you don't need oposiciones to work in a concertado/private school. But I think this might not be that relevant to the OP's interests anyway. I agree they are a barrier in terms of getting into any kind of work in the Spanish public sector though.

Really I think the best bet for the OP would be to try something like LinkedIn or perhaps a job board more relevant to their profession. Right now I imagine it would be incredibly difficult to find anything though. Otherwise I imagine it would have to be TEFL. I think if you do a TEFL course at an academy they usually offer you a job there afterwards. Again the current situation might make it nearly impossible to find anything soon though.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Overandout said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> > Even if you want to do opociciones I would imagine it is near to impossible for someone who lacks at a minimum C1 level spanish to be successful. The number of years you would need to devote to gaining that level of spanish and then discover it is still a lottery as to whether you were offered a position and then finding you have to move to a completely different part of Spain makes it really a non-starter.
> ...



Who's complaining?,I am just saying that the time and work involved in a non spanish speaking person preparing for an opociciones is considerable and not worth it given the fact it doesnt even secure you a job. If just enters you on to a long list which operates like a lottery


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kaipa said:


> Who's complaining?,I am just saying that the time and work involved in a non spanish speaking person preparing for an opociciones is considerable and not worth it given the fact it doesnt even secure you a job. If just enters you on to a long list which operates like a lottery


Indeed I haven't heard anyone from Spain speak particularly highly of the oposiciones system either. But I know of many who end up doing oposiciones anyway because they don't have much choice. If they are unlucky they don't get a place and have to repeat the process all over again. If they are lucky they get a job which they'll be stuck in for life, unless they do yet more oposiciones in the future. I guess in certain cases the system helps ensure people are genuinely quaified for the positions they hold, but overall I find the whole concept utterly depressing.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turtles said:


> . In the UK, if you want to be a teacher, you send a cv to a school that takes your fancy and hope for an interview. .


Unless things have changed in the last couple of years, in order to teach in the UK you must be a graduate and have Qualified Teacher Status.

Some private schools with lower standards might accept unqualified people.


----------



## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Plus academies and free schools.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Chopera said:


> Indeed I haven't heard anyone from Spain speak particularly highly of the oposiciones system either. But I know of many who end up doing oposiciones anyway because they don't have much choice. If they are unlucky they don't get a place and have to repeat the process all over again. If they are lucky they get a job which they'll be stuck in for life, unless they do yet more oposiciones in the future. I guess in certain cases the system helps ensure people are genuinely quaified for the positions they hold, but overall I find the whole concept utterly depressing.


A lot of Spanish also see it differently. Rather than a "job you are stuck in for life", a lot of them feel that it is a form of job security unavailable in the private sector (it is virtually impossible to be fired from the civil service of course).

I guess it depends on their perspective. 

But a form of excluding foreigners from public positions it certainly is not.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Anyway, I feel that I should addres the OP's initial questions, rather than discus the merits or perceptions on the oposiciones system!



Ameliatw95 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My partner and I (25/26 years old) would love to move to Madrid for 6 months - 1 year in 2021. Our main concern is jobs and the importance of lessening any impact moving abroad may have on our careers. That being said;
> 
> ...


I personally don't know what is meant by the "F3 year" or what system may be in place for international placements of medical staff, but what is clear is that doctor is a controlled profession and therefore any professional title gained outside of Spain would need to be homologated / convalidated in Spain before being able to practise. Although not in medicine, I worked in a controlled profession and was lucky enough to get a job where they gave me some help in completing the recognition process which used to be available to UK citizens in the EU (not economical help, but at least they gave me time off to go to the authorities when needed).

There are non-teaching jobs available in Madrid for native English speakers, not many but there are some. My first job was in a call centre where we all had to be native English speaking (the callers were not allowed to know that we were in Spain). It was poorly paid, but at least it did pay and it was "normal" working hours. A lot of jobs for English speakers are tourism positions (not a very lucrative area at the moment though) and therefore have unsociable working hours.

Even if you are studying in the UK, it is unlikely that your Spanish will be anything close to good enough for a professional position in Spain in a few years. I did GCSE and AS level Spanish before I moved and I still needed another year of "in-situ" practice before I could start working in a Spanish environment, and even then it was tough at the start.

But the main piece of advice I would give is don't tell anyone that you're not planning on staying. If any employers finds out that you're not planning to be here for the long haul, they will forget you as a potential candidate.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> AFAIK you don't need oposiciones to work in a concertado/private school.


and this is reflected in the quality of teaching in many of them.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> A lot of Spanish also see it differently. Rather than a "job you are stuck in for life", a lot of them feel that it is a form of job security unavailable in the private sector (it is virtually impossible to be fired from the civil service of course).
> 
> I guess it depends on their perspective.
> 
> But a form of excluding foreigners from public positions it certainly is not.


It makes it very hard for foreigners to turn up in Spain and get a job in the public sector, even if they are extremely highly qualified. Of course there'll be Spaniards who can't believe their luck if they are accepted and they don't aspire to much, and there are some professions who absolutely milk the system. Most doctors I know are able to hold down a public sector role in the morning, while also running a private practice in the evenings.

Anyway, the subject of oposiciones was discussed a while back here:

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/893258-oposiciones.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> Indeed I haven't heard anyone from Spain speak particularly highly of the oposiciones system either. But I know of many who end up doing oposiciones anyway because they don't have much choice. If they are unlucky they don't get a place and have to repeat the process all over again. If they are lucky they get a job which they'll be stuck in for life, unless they do yet more oposiciones in the future. I guess in certain cases the system helps ensure people are genuinely quaified for the positions they hold, but overall I find the whole concept utterly depressing.


 Actually the _oposiciones_ that I know about which are for teaching and certain posts in Town Halls do not


> ensure people are genuinely qualified for the positions they hold


They ensure that people who know how to memorise information, much of which is totally superfluous for the post they will be carrying out if not irrelevant, will pass an exam. Apart from a written exam there may be something that has to be presented to a board. The board is made up of who ever they can manage to scrape together, people who passed the exam the year before to maybe a director of studies. These boards make up their own rules as to who passes or not, there is no national criteria, no criteria at all in fact at least there wasn't a few years ago. I was offered the possibility of being on the board for English teaching one year...Very little is based on practical, real life situations and the skills and soft skills of the team that people will be joining are not taken into consideration at all so if a team works well together or not is totally arbitrary. 

Then you don't pass or fail, at least in the teaching opos you don't. You get a grade and depending on the marks that year, and the number of people sitting the exam and the places available a cut off point is decided.
If you get the highest mark and are at the top of the table you will most likely get a job, but they will send you where they want, you don't get to choose. OH's first job was about 180km round trip every day.
Lastly you can be years at the "top of the league" without getting a final destination = without a full pay packet.
It's a terrible system that causes much pain and suffering but more importantly means that nobody wins. People do a bad job in jobs that they are not prepared for and more importantly give bad service to the public. The miraculous thing is that there are civil servants that do a good job.
Civil servants include not only doctors and teachers, but also

forestry workersreceptionists in a health centre
security guards in public buildings
judges
prison workers
post office workers
school janitors
people who work in airports
town hall workers
etc


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Overandout said:


> So you moved to a country, presumably of your own free will, and now complain about their systems and procedures (which are compliant with applicable international law) because they aren't the same as the way things are done in your native country?


I absolutely do. As a taxpayer and voter in local and EU elections who moved here as an EU citizen, I give praise where praise is due and I NEVER stop moaning about things that strike me as outdated, corrupt and ineffective.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Oposiciones are no different from the exams that Civil Service personnel in the UK were faced with. As a Meteorological Assistant, my position was classed as temporary until I had passed certain exams and if I wanted to get on, I would have to pass yet more exams and so-on much the same as promotion in the RAF.


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

"Civil service" here includes teachers, nurses, grave diggers, postmen and people who tell you to come back to the ayuntamiento next week with a copy of your grandmother's birth certificate. I call that overkill.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Turtles said:


> "Civil service" here includes teachers, nurses, grave diggers, postmen and people who tell you to come back to the ayuntamiento next week with a copy of your grandmother's birth certificate. *I call that overkill.*


Tough! It is their country, they run it how they wish, not how you would like.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I saw a program recently on opociciones where they investigated a local fire brigade and found that the fire chiefs sons, cousins, in laws were all members. The opposition board was simply made up of the chief and his cronies. So pesky is right it's not at all well controlled and despite it's well meaning origins it has been open to abuse for decades
For many jobs the opociciones is a total memorisation of the constitution!! So it has very little to do with ability or passion for the job. It's just about security.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Oposiciones are no different from the exams that Civil Service personnel in the UK were faced with. As a Meteorological Assistant, my position was classed as temporary until I had passed certain exams and if I wanted to get on, I would have to pass yet more exams and so-on much the same as promotion in the RAF.


I think this is one of the big problems Baldi. The exams in Spain have not moved on much from the 1950's. I would think that in the UK and in other countries civil servant exams and the system is far less arbitrary than it is in Spain... Also the posts are not so far reaching as they are here, the example of teachers for example. Teachers in the UK are chosen because of the skills and knowledge that they have and how they fit in to the team. They go to the job because they put themselves forward for it and are chosen. Not so in Spain.


----------



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I had a student who had graduated as a primary teacher. She spent one year with me doing B1 English the second year B2 ( which she scraped through) then she studied Valenciano for a year then she prepared for oposiciones. So in all she studied for over 3 years after graduating. She is now working in a shop as says she would have to do the opociciones again as her mark wasnt high enough to have the chance of a job opportunity. Now that is in my opinion ridiculous, unfair and a complete waste of a young persons education.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kaipa said:


> I saw a program recently on opociciones where they investigated a local fire brigade and found that the fire chiefs sons, cousins, in laws were all members. The opposition board was simply made up of the chief and his cronies. So pesky is right it's not at all well controlled and despite it's well meaning origins it has been open to abuse for decades
> For many jobs the opociciones is a total memorisation of the constitution!! So it has very little to do with ability or passion for the job. It's just about security.


That's ironic as I thought one of the reasons behind oposiciones was to prevent nepotism.


----------

