# Renounced US Citizenship - Bank asking for Tax Forms - What to do?



## jdd1335

I posted this thread not a long time ago:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ge...nship-what-happens-your-us-bank-accounts.html

I have a US Bank account which I use to get some PayPal transfers for no fees as my bank also provides a card that doesn't charge foreign exchange fees. So far so good. However
My bank has just sent me the following:

*In accordance with IRS Regulations, we are required to obtain from you a certified TIN on IRS Form W9 or a current NRA certification on Form W8BEN. If we do not have a current certification of your tax status, U.S. tax law requires us to backup withold on all interest and dividend income earned on your account(s).*

The thing is I still have a TIN (=Tax Identification Number), which is my SSN, but I am no longer a citizen, so if I file a W9 Form I would basically "lie" that I'm a US person ... on the other hand they are telling me if I file W8 form then I need to provide a foreign passport or driving license with explanation of my circumstances, as well as to be aware that in the future they might ask for future documentation...

Honestly, here are the facts:


I have less than $2,000 in the account
I DO NOT plan to get any INTEREST paid on this account, it's just for small transfers, period.
I feel like if I would file the W8 form along with all this paperwork they will close my account - because that will indicate to them I am not living in the US (my account currently has relatives address on it) - and US Banks don't want foreign customers, I read online they close lots of accounts of those who don't live in the US.
On the other hand, I feel like if I don't file anything they will close my account for not having tax forms from me.
So basically I am screwed either way.

So what should I do?
Can I just file W9 Form with my SSN number in it, and just make sure I never earn interest in this account, and then the bank would be happy and I would be happy, and the bank will never file anything for me to the IRS because I will never get any interest paid?

Or can I just ignore it and let the bank withold 28% of interest that will never be paid to me? I don't care about the 28% ... I just care about my account NOT getting closed (and I had already accounts closed in the past, it's so annoying) ... look, in the letter they clearly say:

*If we do not have a current certification of your tax status, U.S. tax law requires us to backup withold on all interest and dividend income earned on your account(s).*

So fine, backup withold whatever you want, I don't care ... can I just go ahead like that? Or they just say it to inform me they will backup withold - but regardless if I don't send them anything back they will close the account?

What do you think I should do??   
Just give up having a US bank account?


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## BBCWatcher

jdd1335 said:


> Can I just file W9 Form with my SSN number in it, and just make sure I never earn interest in this account, and then the bank would be happy and I would be happy, and the bank will never file anything for me to the IRS because I will never get any interest paid?


No. There's at least a civil penalty for filing a false W-9, and (from what I can tell) you'd also be subject to criminal penalties for committing a felony. Not recommended.

If anybody cared to look -- possible, even likely -- it'd be trivially easy to determine that you're ineligible to file a W-9 as a former citizen. The bank may have already made that determination, hence their notice to you. (The notice is a generic form letter. The W-9 option isn't actually a legal option for you.)



> Or can I just ignore it and let the bank withold 28% of interest that will never be paid to me?


The bank gave you three options. One of those options (filing a W-9) would be subject to civil and probably criminal penalties. The other two wouldn't, assuming you're truthful. Take your pick.

As a separate matter, the bank has no legal obligation to maintain you as a customer. (Nor does the bank have a legal impediment.) You are an "at will" customer. If the bank wants to close your account in the future, even near future, they can do so. Many U.S. financial institutions simply decline to serve non-resident aliens. You may be able to reduce the probability of your bank closing your account if you maintain a U.S. mailing address on the account (e.g. an address with a U.S. Postal Service authorized mail forwarder), but there are no guarantees.


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## jdd1335

BBCWatcher said:


> No. There's at least a civil penalty for filing a false W-9, and (from what I can tell) you'd also be subject to criminal penalties for committing a felony. Not recommended.
> 
> If anybody cared to look -- possible, even likely -- it'd be trivially easy to determine that you're ineligible to file a W-9 as a former citizen.


What are the chances that anyone would look into it, and why really?
The W9 is for the bank, NOT for the IRS.

So, basically, the bank just wants to know if it should withold taxes or not from interest they pay me - because that is part of the IRS regulations. So if they get a W9 from me with a CORRECT SSN in it then what's wrong with that?

Yes, I looked at the W9 Form - it says:

*Criminal penalty for falsifying information. Willfully falsifying certifications or affirmations may subject you to criminal penalties including fines and/or imprisonment.*

But in that case don't think you think that suing someone with criminal penalties is too BIG punishment for something like this? It's just a bank account ... I don't think the authorities really care about it, and the bank just wants to have its fax form on file ... are you not a little bit exaggerating about "what could happen" if I file a W9 form?

And thanks by the way for the quick response.



BBCWatcher said:


> As a separate matter, the bank has no legal obligation to maintain you as a customer. (Nor does the bank have a legal impediment.) You are an "at will" customer. If the bank wants to close your account in the future, even near future, they can do so. Many U.S. financial institutions simply decline to serve non-resident aliens. You may be able to reduce the probability of your bank closing your account if you maintain a U.S. mailing address on the account (e.g. an address with a U.S. Postal Service authorized mail forwarder), but there are no guarantees.


Yes, but I get the impression you tend to exaggerate how things work. My relatives in the US have bank accounts open without any issues for many years, I'm just trying to be in the same position (and yes, I know renouncing the citizenship is not helping).

Anyway banks can always close your account but if you play by the rules you're fine, why would they close your account if you bring them business (in my case I have to have $1,500 in the account to avoid monthly fee, so the bank actually has advantage of having me as customer - so long as I don't risk its business) ....

And yes, as I said above - the account is registered on my relatives' address, so it has a U.S. mailing address as you advised.

I just want to keep the account open - I understand W9 is mainly for the purpose of having Tax ID Number for the bank, in my case my Social Security Number ... funny thing is I have another bank account with a credit union and they never asked me to sign on any tax form! (and they don't obligate me to keep money in the account to avoid monthly fee) - I jut use this specific account to save on fees abroad, that's all.

I know the risk of civil penalties is not worth the savings of some foreign exchange fees, but on the other hand it's hard for me to believe you would be sued for something like that ... at most your account will get closed likewise  which in my case it has high probability to happen if I don't send a W9 back. 

Is it not the case?



BBCWatcher said:


> The bank may have already made that determination, hence their notice to you. (The notice is a generic form letter. The W-9 option isn't actually a legal option for you.)


No, it's a new account opened a few months ago, and now this is 2015, a new year, so they are sending these letters to all customers they don't have tax forms on file for. That's my opinion.

I doubt the bank has made "determination" as you claimed knowing my citizenship status, although when you renounce a US citizenship it is published so it is quite easy to know it - yet, I don't think the bank has time to look into such things... it's just sending this letter to anyone they don't have tax form on file (as I understand only for accounts opened after July 2014, correct?)

I don't think that as much as the U.S. is sophisticated, it's the bank's role to be more than a bank. In the end of the day they just want business. Those verifications they do are forced by the U.S. government - if it was up to them they would have done nothing. That's what I understand.


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## Bevdeforges

The answer is in the document from the bank. If you are no longer a US citizen, just send them a form W8BEN, where you certify that you are NOT a US citizen and should be treated as an NRA. Form W-8BEN, Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding Easy-peasy.
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> The answer is in the document from the bank. If you are no longer a US citizen, just send them a form W8BEN, where you certify that you are NOT a US citizen and should be treated as an NRA. Form W-8BEN, Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding Easy-peasy.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thanks Bev.
Don't you think they will close the account if I do that?


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## BBCWatcher

There is no exaggeration in what I wrote. You asked for an answer, and the answer I provided is accurate. The bank gave you three options, and two of them are legal. Take your pick.

Perhaps the bank will close your account, perhaps they won't. There's nothing you can do about that that you haven't already done.


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## jdd1335

BBCWatcher said:


> There is no exaggeration in what I wrote. You asked for an answer, and the answer I provided is accurate. The bank gave you three options, and two of them are legal. Take your pick.
> 
> Perhaps the bank will close your account, perhaps they won't. There's nothing you can do about that that you haven't already done.


It seems like it's the most reasonable thing to do, so I would just send them the W8 with a notarized copy of my Passport and Driving License and a letter of explanation. Two other questions:


How would I certify/notarize my Passport and DL? Can I use NotaryCam.com or you think the bank won't like it?
Should I include in my letter a copy of the Certificate of Loss of US Nationality?

Thanks!


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## BBCWatcher

Are they asking for the W-8BEN plus additional documentation _now_, or are they just asking for the W-8BEN at this point? If only the W-8BEN, I'd take it one step at a time.

If they ask for a passport or driver's license, then I would follow their instructions including the word "or." (I'd probably choose the passport.) If they didn't ask for a CLN then I wouldn't send a CLN. I don't see how a CLN would help, and it might even hurt.

When the time comes (if not now), U.S. embassies and consulates offer notarial services. Presumably you could prepare an affidavit and sign that in the presence of a U.S. consular officer who then notarizes the document. The cost is US$50. I don't think the officer can provide "true copy" notarial service, however. A physical visit to the bank would be another option, if that is an option.

As a reminder, whether you comply with the bank's requests or not they are under no obligation to keep you as a customer. Given that, consider how much time, effort, and money you want to invest in responding to the bank's requests.


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## jdd1335

BBCWatcher said:


> Are they asking for the W-8BEN plus additional documentation _now_, or are they just asking for the W-8BEN at this point?


Thank you for your help and answers, I appreciate that.
They're asking for both W-8BEN Form plus additional documentation.

*They say if there is a U.S. mailing address on the account (and there is) and you fill out the W-8BEN form then the "account owner must provide:

- A current and valid Foreign Government issued identification with an address outside of the U.S. The unexpired identification must include the account owner's name, residential address and a photograph. Examples include a non-U.S. passport (must have a residential address), foreign driver's license, or national identity card. The identification must be an original or a notarized/certified copy.

- A reasonable written or typed explanation that is signed and dated supporting the claim of foreign status.

If you are certifying your tax status by completing form W-8BEN, please note that you may be requested to provide additional documentation in the future that may be relevant in validating your tax status as part of Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) compliance efforts."*

So I thought for the "reasonable written or typed explanation" part to include my CLN certificate to prove I'm a not a US citizen, however I do have a driving license with a foreign address on it, so that is not a problem. I can include a letter stating that the address is my relatives', simply used as "mail forwarding" address.

Does that sound good?
Yes, I don't want to dedicate too much time and hassles to it ... NotaryCam.com can certify your documents online, without leaving the house or needing to go to the embassy and deal with all their bureaucracy just to get something notarized - I don't think the bank would have issues with it, but again ... you're right ... I am not going to "suicide" on this bank account ... at worst if they don't want me as customer then fine, and if they do then great ... they are helping me to save fees, but with all these hassles and costs involved (notarizing and sending things by express post back to them) it would start lose the value of using this account.

What do you think about all this?
Thanks again.


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## Bevdeforges

You are far from the first person to be presented with this situation. Follow the instructions and send them the W8BEN plus a note explaining you have renounced (throw in the number, if there is one, on your CLN) and then send them a copy of some piece of i.d. that gives your UK address. If they want to see your CLN, they'll ask for it.

Not all banks are closing out accounts belonging to Americans. If it's a US bank, you'll have to see what they want to do. Technically it means they are supposed to withhold 30% in taxes on all interest they pay you. (However, on the interest rates banks are paying these days, this is probably a really insignificant amount.)

If it's a British bank, chances are they'll be relieved to find that you are no longer a "US person" and just that much less problem for them. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> You are far from the first person to be presented with this situation.


I think you compare me to those people who were asked by FOREIGN banks to comply with US TAX regulations in their FOREIGN country (i.e. as if Barclays UK would ask me to file W9 thinking I'm still American - or like more popular many Swiss banks asking the same) .... *that is not my case.*



Bevdeforges said:


> Not all banks are closing out accounts belonging to Americans.


I'm not American, and the bank is a U.S. bank (should I name it if it matters?) - so again *this is not my case.*



Bevdeforges said:


> If it's a US bank, you'll have to see what they want to do. Technically it means they are supposed to withhold 30% in taxes on all interest they pay you.


*Yes - here you're starting to describe my case.* That's right, it's a U.S. Bank. In that case why would I send them a W-8BEN Form with supporting documentation in the first place? I just had a phone call with my wife, she is not an expert, but she read the letter from the bank, and she thinks I should just ignore it and let the bank withold 30% (or is it 28%? doesn't matter much) - that's it ... just let them withold taxes from interest they pay me, that's what she thinks ... she says why do you need to provide information to the bank if the letter doesn't state that if I fail to provide that information the account will get closed - they say if no information provided they will withold tax in that account ... and then



Bevdeforges said:


> (However, on the interest rates banks are paying these days, this is probably a really insignificant amount.)


Exactly, you nailed it!
First, I am not planning to get any interest from that account, I purely use it as "vehicle" to transfer money from USD in PayPal to that account and vice versa... this way I don't have to convert the money to GBP and transfer it using my UK PayPal account. That's all. (I did open a US PayPal account when I was in the US, luckily I didn't close/renoucne that one lol!!! )

Secondly, even if I was to get some interest - as you said it, 30% of tax is insignificant, especially for the amounts I'm transferring ($60 per week!!!)

I just want to save some fees using that account, not to go crazy because the congress/govt. in the US likes to terrorize people's lives with bureaucracy all over the place.


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## ForeignBody

What is so difficult about just giving them the facts? If they choose to close your account, so be it. They can do that at any time.


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## jdd1335

ForeignBody said:


> What is so difficult about just giving them the facts? If they choose to close your account, so be it. They can do that at any time.


2 reasons:

*(1)* It costs money to notarize and send it.

*(2)* U.S. Banks don't like foreign customers, and that increases the chances of getting the account closed. So it's better to "keep it U.S." just without the W9 Form simply by not sending anything.

I'm not intending to get any interest with this account, and anyway the rates are so low, so 28% tax withholding is irrelevant to me.

Does it answer your question?


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## Bevdeforges

Given that you (probably) have a US birthplace and a US address on the account, the bank is going to bug you about sending the W9 until and unless you get back to them. 

If you were a US person, they would be required to get a SSN or ITIN from you - and if you don't provide it they can (and probably will) close out your account. They're covering their own butts here because they have to report all interest paid (and other information) on US held accounts to the IRS.

If you provide them with the W8BEN, they can officially just take the 30%, turn it in to the IRS and be done with their obligation. If the IRS asks (and they do tend to review banks more frequently than individuals), they show the W8BEN and basically it's not their problem any more.
If you don't bother to file a 1040NR to get back the "excess" withholding (if that is even possible) there's not a problem. And the W8BEN will get them off your back for YEARS. (I would consider changing the address on the account to your foreign address - though some banks will close the account if you do that. That's strictly internal bank policy, though. You should be able to find a bank that will allow you to have an account.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> Given that you (probably) have a US birthplace and a US address on the account, the bank is going to bug you about sending the W9 until and unless you get back to them.


Bev,
You are very helpful with your answers and I do appreciate your help, however you are making once again, another *false assumption* - I was born OUTSIDE OF THE USA. So this assumption of yours is wrong.

I don't care if the bank would bug me, if it will ask for it again I will send it. I just don't want it to close the account, because closing it means I need to take a flight to the US to open a new account (or I can use my Credit Union account but it's taking forever to make transfers, and it's very limited with what I need).

Again, I don't care if they will "bug" me (sending me letters is not "bugging" me by the way). I just don't want to get the account closed. That's all I care about.



Bevdeforges said:


> If you were a US person, they would be required to get a SSN or ITIN from you - and if you don't provide it they can (and probably will) close out your account. They're covering their own butts here because they have to report all interest paid (and other information) on US held accounts to the IRS.
> 
> If you provide them with the W8BEN, they can officially just take the 30%, turn it in to the IRS and be done with their obligation. If the IRS asks (and they do tend to review banks more frequently than individuals), they show the W8BEN and basically it's not their problem any more.
> If you don't bother to file a 1040NR to get back the "excess" withholding (if that is even possible) there's not a problem. And the W8BEN will get them off your back for YEARS. (I would consider changing the address on the account to your foreign address - though some banks will close the account if you do that. That's strictly internal bank policy, though. You should be able to find a bank that will allow you to have an account.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Okay, I appreciate that.
I'm trying to decide between the two options, sending in the documents and not taking any action, what would be better to do.

I'm having a dilemma here, what would be a "safer" action to keep the account open ... as I said I could care less about formalities, and I have all the information they need in either option ... I'm just trying to think what is the best course of action.

One thing I don't understand, Bev ... why do they need to close an account if it failed to comply with tax documents? They say they will simply withhold tax!

In the letter they clearly say:

*Title: ACTION IS REQUIRED TO STOP BACKUP WITHHOLDING (not to stop the account from being closed!!)*

*If we do not have a current certification of your tax status, U.S. tax law requires us to backup withhold on all interest and dividend income earned on your account(s).*

They don't say they would close the account.
They warn me they will charge tax on interest (or on dividends which are related to stocks and I'm not a stock person) - hence I say - FINE, GO AHEAD - I could care less about something that I am not going to get, use or be relevant to me!

They don't say they would close the account - they say they would withhold tax - who cares about taxing a few dollars at most?! As you said with these rates it's so low, who cares about it ... I just want to know which better option is better for long term to keep the account open.

*You said they need the documentation to cover their butts - but they are also covering their butts if they withhold tax - correct?*

Am I right or wrong here?

I'm sorry if I use so many bold text here, I am really just a person who likes things straightforward and things like this just drive me nuts ... only in America .... :confused2:


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> If you provide them with the W8BEN, they can officially just take the 30%, turn it in to the IRS and be done with their obligation.


Just noticed what you said in the quoted text.
I think you got it wrong.

A W-8BEN Form is not required for them to take the 30% - they do it even without having this form! And it's even on the contrary with the W8 Form!

They need the W-8BEN in order to NOT charge tax --> That is why they're asking for it --> Basically the way it works is they get the W8 --> They see I pay tax in the UK --> They will have a record of my notarized UK Driving Licence (in the UK they spell it as "Licence" and not "License") and explanation --> They won't charge tax and be done with their obligation.

But another option is --> I am not sending anything --> They charge 30% --> They are done with their obligations as well.

You see the 2 options are possible?
I'm just asking which one is better to choose in order to keep the account open?

And I'm sorry, I just had terrible experience with U.S. Banks in the past, I don't trust them so much, and I would never ever keep my money in U.S. Banks who can any day freeze/block your account without any prior notice. Even depositing checks using their "mobile deposit" is risky, because they will suspect the check is fraudulent (yes, it happened to me in the past, that's how I lost my Wells Fargo account and now permanently blocked from having account with that institution despite the fact the check was GOOD!!)

So you see where I'm coming from and I'm trying to achieve? Maybe my mindset is slightly different than yours ....
I have UK Bank accounts since 2009 and never had a single issue with them, not with Barclays, Halifax and more.

The U.S. is always about giving you troubles - so that is why I'm asking all this :usa:


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## BBCWatcher

As I mentioned way upthread, you have two legal options available: filing a truthful W-8BEN plus the requested documentation, or ignoring this particular request.

If you don't like doing business with this bank you're certainly free to close your account. You're not obliged to do business with them, and they're not obliged to do business with you.


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## jdd1335

BBCWatcher said:


> As I mentioned way upthread, you have two legal options available: filing a truthful W-8BEN plus the requested documentation, or ignoring this particular request.
> 
> If you don't like doing business with this bank you're certainly free to close your account. You're not obliged to do business with them, and they're not obliged to do business with you.


Thank you BBCWatcher.
No, I do want to do business with this specific bank because it has features that others don't have.

Can I ask you, if you were in my place, out of those 2 legal options available, which one would you prefer more?


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## Nononymous

You COULD *also* forget *ABOUT* the US account and USE *something ELSE* for PayPal.

*This seems like* a LOT OF QUESTIONS for ONE simple *ACCOUNT*.


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## jdd1335

Nononymous said:


> You COULD *also* forget *ABOUT* the US account and USE *something ELSE* for PayPal.
> 
> *This seems like* a LOT OF QUESTIONS for ONE simple *ACCOUNT*.


lol


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## Bevdeforges

Just had a look at the form and while you can claim the tax treaty benefits, if there is a tax treaty that would exempt you from the 30% withholding, you only fill out part II if it's applicable. 

All you're doing is saying that you are NOT a US citizen, nor US resident. (By associating your bank account with a US address, the bank has to assume you are US resident without the W8BEN. And if you're US resident, then they have to report all payments of interest to the IRS and issue you with a 1099 each year.)

While it's true, they don't need the W8 to withhold the 30%, they do need it to establish that you are indeed an NRA - otherwise they will treat you like any other US citizen/resident for tax purposes and the IRS will try to link up your SSN with the interest reported on the account.

Frankly, anyone with a US bank account is at risk of having their account seized if the IRS or State authorities have any reason to suspect something "funny" going on. Doesn't matter if you're subject to US taxes or not. (Been there, done that and have the t-shirt!)

If you don't send them either a W9 or a W8BEN, you run the risk of them closing your account altogether. If you send them the W8BEN, there is still that risk. Wells Fargo is fairly well known now for refusing accounts to overseas residents. Personally, I'd rather give them the proof that I am no longer a US citizen/taxpayer so that there is no question about the matter. (Which may involve having to change the address on your account to your overseas address.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> Just had a look at the form and while you can claim the tax treaty benefits, if there is a tax treaty that would exempt you from the 30% withholding, you only fill out part II if it's applicable.
> 
> All you're doing is saying that you are NOT a US citizen, nor US resident. (By associating your bank account with a US address, the bank has to assume you are US resident without the W8BEN. And if you're US resident, then they have to report all payments of interest to the IRS and issue you with a 1099 each year.)
> 
> While it's true, they don't need the W8 to withhold the 30%, they do need it to establish that you are indeed an NRA - otherwise they will treat you like any other US citizen/resident for tax purposes and the IRS will try to link up your SSN with the interest reported on the account.
> 
> Frankly, anyone with a US bank account is at risk of having their account seized if the IRS or State authorities have any reason to suspect something "funny" going on. Doesn't matter if you're subject to US taxes or not. (Been there, done that and have the t-shirt!)
> 
> If you don't send them either a W9 or a W8BEN, you run the risk of them closing your account altogether. If you send them the W8BEN, there is still that risk. Wells Fargo is fairly well known now for refusing accounts to overseas residents. Personally, I'd rather give them the proof that I am no longer a US citizen/taxpayer so that there is no question about the matter. (Which may involve having to change the address on your account to your overseas address.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thank you for your help Bev.
You've quite convinced me to do that then.

I have nothing more now than to come back to you at a later time and tell you whether my account got closed or whether I can bank with it as a NRA.


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## jdd1335

Just advising I've just also asked my accountant about this, and he told me the bank, upon request from the IRS, must provide an explanation to the IRS about my tax status, it's IRS regulations - he looked at the letter and told me there are higher chances for the bank to close the account if I simply ignore that letter than if I would send the W8 Form.

So that's it, I'm 100% going to send it along with the requested documents. He did advise as Bev suggested to include a copy of my CLN (unlike BBCWatcher who said it "might even hurt") because it's just a supporting evidence for my W8 Form, the bank could decide how to move on, but the fact it is offering the NRA option indicates they are willing to do business with me, so my accountant advises to send the W8, send a copy of the CLN and notarized Driving License, and explain the address on file is simply used as "mail forwarding" only and for that purpose only, and that should help hopefully.


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## edward222

Just ignore that 28%, its better to lose that 28% rather than getting your account closed.


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## jdd1335

edward222 said:


> Just ignore that 28%, its better to lose that 28% rather than getting your account closed.


So what is your advise then?


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## BBCWatcher

jdd1335 said:


> He did advise as Bev suggested to include a copy of my CLN (unlike BBCWatcher who said it "might even hurt") because it's just a supporting evidence for my W8 Form....


So is a foreign passport.

....Let me put it this way, delicately but explicitly. Do you think Wells Fargo -- I think you said it's Wells Fargo -- wants to be known as the bank that does business with former U.S. citizens who renounced their citizenships?

....Neither do I.


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## Bevdeforges

I really wouldn't worry too much about that. We've had no end of reports from folks who said that Wells Fargo will close out your account if you change your address to an overseas address - even if you are just going over for a couple of years on a job assignment.

If they don't want to retain their customers while they're overseas, that's their problem. I don't think it has anything to do with the OPs nationality (or lack thereof). Not all banks in the US feel that way.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Yes, exactly. If WF isn't eager to maintain accounts for U.S. citizens living overseas, is there any reason to believe demonstrating ex-citizenship -- that's the only value a CLN adds -- would help? I don't.


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## Bevdeforges

Maybe I've mis-read the OP's posts, but I had the feeling that the OP had already had a WF account closed and that the bank that has sent him/her the request for a W9 or W8BEN is another bank.

But in any event, if we're talking about WF, chances are the lack of any response at all will mean the same thing - account closed.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

That's possible.

Submitting a CLN serves no other purpose than to demonstrate termination of U.S. citizenship. I cannot think of any way that demonstration would be helpful in convincing a U.S. bank to maintain a business relationship. Maybe someone else can offer a hypothesis on why it would be helpful.


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## Bevdeforges

BBCWatcher said:


> That's possible.
> 
> Submitting a CLN serves no other purpose than to demonstrate termination of U.S. citizenship. I cannot think of any way that demonstration would be helpful in convincing a U.S. bank to maintain a business relationship. Maybe someone else can offer a hypothesis on why it would be helpful.


The banks are required to have documentation on their customers, to justify how they are being dealt with vis-a-vis the IRS. For US citizens and US residents, they report income on the account to the IRS without any withholdings, and for NRAs, they withhold 30% and report that on the 1099s. Should the IRS question the treatment of any individual, or just be ruffling through the files for an audit, they are going to want to see why a particular customer is being treated the way they are. I would suspect that both bank auditors and your run-of-the-mill public auditors would want something similar. (And for some banks, it's just easier to get either a W9 or a W8BEN for each and every customer.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Yes, but why is _former_ U.S. citizenship relevant? The original poster can present a foreign passport that happens to have a non-U.S. birthplace listed. That puts the original poster in the 30% withholding category, exactly where he belongs (unless a treaty says otherwise). A CLN doesn't change that, so what's the point except to provide even more encouragement to the bank to sever the business relationship?

What U.S. bank is going to say, "Oh, he's a _former_ U.S. citizen, so let's keep him"? Rather the opposite if anything!

I don't get it. The bank didn't ask for the CLN, so why volunteer it?


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## Bevdeforges

What the bank did ask for was "proof" of whatever status the OP is claiming. Our recent renunciators are starting to run together but it seems entirely logical to me to submit the CLN if the OP has a US place of birth. S/he would also need to submit "something" based on the US address associated with the account. (US citizen or not, if a person is resident in the US, it's safe to assume they are subject to US taxation without the 30% withholding requirement.)

I'm fairly sure my current bank asked me to fill out a W9 when I first opened my account - due to my foreign address. And they took a copy of my US passport as "proof" of my status.

If the OP wants to prove that s/he is not resident in the US and ineligible to provide a W9 (because no longer a US citizen), then the option to is provide a W8BEN with some sort of evidence "proving" that they are NOT a US citizen, despite the US address and birthplace. 

Maybe it's because I used to be an auditor for one of the big public accountancies, but it seems to me that giving the bank what they want (or need) along with the requested documentary proof is just common sense.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

jdd1335 said:


> Bev,
> You are very helpful with your answers and I do appreciate your help, however you are making once again, another *false assumption* - I was born OUTSIDE OF THE USA. So this assumption of yours is wrong.


As jdd1335 described, his passport does not include a U.S. birthplace. Not that it matters anyway, but I have literally no idea why jdd1335 should be submitting additional information (a CLN) that has absolutely no bearing on his withholding rate, particularly when nobody is requesting it.

Should he also submit his university diploma, a copy of an insect exterminator's report on his home, and his latest blood sugar level test results?


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## maz57

We are asked for personal information by just about every organization we deal with nowadays. My own rule of thumb is to give them exactly the information asked for; nothing more, nothing less. (This assumes, of course, that we actually want something from that organization.)

Generally, no good can come from volunteering additional info. It just confuses things and may well trigger an unexpected complication. The idea is to make the request and the response as routine as possible. There is no upside to making yourself "a nail head sticking up".


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## Bevdeforges

I've dealt with so many of these situations lately that it's no small wonder I'm getting the situations confused.

OK, the issue here seems to be that the OP has a US address attached to the account, thus "implying" that he is at least a US resident, which would render him subject to taxes in the US, and thus in need of submitting a W9.

If he either already filled out a W9 when opening the account, or it states somewhere in his file with the bank that he was a US citizen when he opened the account, then he needs to document the "how come" part of his change in status. It may indeed be much easier to simply change the address on the account to his overseas address, without submitting the CLN. It simply depends on what he's trying to "prove" to the bank's satisfaction.
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> Maybe I've mis-read the OP's posts, but I had the feeling that the OP had already had a WF account closed and that the bank that has sent him/her the request for a W9 or W8BEN is another bank.


*Correct!*
However on a 2nd thought BBCWatcher makes some sense with what he says... I don't need to prove I'm not a US citizen, a statement in a separate letter saying I'm not a US citizen should be enough I think. Perhaps including this CLN is not a good idea after all.


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> Should the IRS question the treatment of any individual, or just be ruffling through the files for an audit, they are going to want to see why a particular customer is being treated the way they are.


Yes, that is why the bank is asking for a certified copy of your FOREIGN driving license and also YOUR OWN statement in a separate letter where you CERTIFY you are living overseas and not a US citizen/resident.

If you lie in this statement IT IS YOUR OWN PROBLEM, the bank wouldn't care about it, only the IRS would and then it would be yourself dealing with the IRS. The bank would tell the IRS this is what he told us and even showed us some documentation - it's fair enough for the bank I think ... as I said the bank just wants to tick the box, it's not there to handle tax affairs for the IRS.


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## jdd1335

maz57 said:


> We are asked for personal information by just about every organization we deal with nowadays. My own rule of thumb is to give them exactly the information asked for; nothing more, nothing less. (This assumes, of course, that we actually want something from that organization.)
> 
> Generally, no good can come from volunteering additional info. It just confuses things and may well trigger an unexpected complication. The idea is to make the request and the response as routine as possible. There is no upside to making yourself "a nail head sticking up".


I agree, and I would follow what you and BBCWatcher say - I would just go to a notary public, certify my driving license, sign the W8 Form, include a separate letter testifying I'm not a US citizen nor resident and send it all by DHL to the bank and hope for the best.


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## jdd1335

Bevdeforges said:


> I've dealt with so many of these situations lately that it's no small wonder I'm getting the situations confused.
> 
> OK, the issue here seems to be that the OP has a US address attached to the account, thus "implying" that he is at least a US resident, which would render him subject to taxes in the US, and thus in need of submitting a W9.
> 
> If he either already filled out a W9 when opening the account, or it states somewhere in his file with the bank that he was a US citizen when he opened the account, then he needs to document the "how come" part of his change in status. It may indeed be much easier to simply change the address on the account to his overseas address, without submitting the CLN. It simply depends on what he's trying to "prove" to the bank's satisfaction.
> Cheers,
> Bev


The OP never signed a W9 Form with this bank.
The OP can (and should) explain in a separate letter the U.S. mailing address on file is used as "mail forwarding" address only, and that he doesn't actually live in that address.
The OP will sign for the first time on a tax form with this bank, which will be a W8 Form, so no need to explain any previous "how come".
The OP is myself by the way.


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## edward222

jdd1335 said:


> So what is your advise then?


The best advice I can give to you is, you should hire an adviser, I know that there are lots of experts here that can give you some helpful advice, but nothing will beat an adviser, in this way, he/she can explain all in detailed.


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## jdd1335

edward222 said:


> The best advice I can give to you is, you should hire an adviser, I know that there are lots of experts here that can give you some helpful advice, but nothing will beat an adviser, in this way, he/she can explain all in detailed.


The costs of having an adviser don't worth this bank account.
However as mentioned in this thread I have an accountant (for US taxes) who helped me filing my last tax return when I renounced the citizenship, he helped me this time at no costs and gave me all the suggestions I can get, so I think that should be enough to help. As I said I only have now to notify you whether this was OK with the bank or not, and it would take me time to know it ... I need the original documents to be forwarded to me via DHL (probably today), then I need to sign, go to notary with my driving license, certify the copy and then send it all to the bank and wait at least 1-2 months probably and if I don't get any funny surprises then that means it's all ok.


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