# Gas and Electricity liberalization in Spain



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Would Spanish consumers be better off - if Spain followed the British example and
broke up all the public and private monopolies on Gas and Electricity Supply in
Spain - along the lines of the British model ?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I wonder to what end though, cheaper prices? more choice? greater expansion? better service?
I'm not sure things work that way here.
You would more than likely end up with 10 different companies doing their best to make life difficult for everyone.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> Would Spanish consumers be better off - if Spain followed the British example and
> broke up all the public and private monopolies on Gas and Electricity Supply in
> Spain - along the lines of the British model ?


My answer would be no.


Big Six energy companies' profits 'increased tenfold since 2007' - Telegraph


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

And more recently:-

Energy Secretary orders Big Six to cut bills - Telegraph

I like the word "orders". The Government has no power to order private companies to do any such thing.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> Would Spanish consumers be better off - if Spain followed the British example and
> broke up all the public and private monopolies on Gas and Electricity Supply in
> Spain - along the lines of the British model ?


I wasn't aware the British had broken up the private monopolies, at least not to the extent that there's some kind of free market operating. But if that can be done, and the private companies can be properly regulated then I'm ok with it.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Williams2 said:


> Would Spanish consumers be better off - if Spain followed the British example and
> broke up all the public and private monopolies on Gas and Electricity Supply in
> Spain - along the lines of the British model ?


There was deregulation here in 2009:

Deregulation of electricity companies from July 1st


Quote:
_It is hoped that the move will increase competitivity amongst electricity companies who will see the need to reduce prices and add incentives in order to attract customers._

 That would have been nice!

You can compare tariffs here:

Comisión Nacional de los Mercados y la Competencia. Comparador de Ofertas de Energía: Gas y Electricidad

What difference is there between the British and Spanish models?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I wasn't aware the British had broken up the private monopolies, at least not to the extent that there's some kind of free market operating. But if that can be done, and the private companies can be properly regulated then I'm ok with it.


If the private companies need to be properly regulated, isn't that an admission that a free market wouldn't work in the interests of the consumer?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> If the private companies need to be properly regulated, isn't that an admission that a free market wouldn't work in the interests of the consumer?


What consitutes a "free market" is somewhat open to interpretation, but the idea is that companies (both private and public) don't work in the interests of the consumer, so you to need to create some kind of competition between them to force them to do so, along with regulations to make sure the competition is fair. Companies and individuals who cheat the the system, and therefore the consumer can be punished, something which doesn't really happen in nationalised systems.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I have mixed feelings. The extend of differing deals can be confusing, even with comparison websites. On the other hand having electric and gas with the same provider can save money. There are so many companies trying to get punters to sign up it must be lucrative for them. There is always a guy around Sainsbury's pestering people to change.

Ok. They make fantastic profits but UK utilities are still one of the cheapest in the EU. I am with British Gas for both gas and electric and am satisfied with the cost. Customer service is good too. I don't know how it would work in Spain now as it is hard enough to wade through The websites and change anything or contract new services. I could imagine being pig in the middle with two companies wrangling.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Isobella said:


> I have mixed feelings. The extend of differing deals can be confusing, even with comparison websites. On the other hand having electric and gas with the same provider can save money. There are so many companies trying to get punters to sign up it must be lucrative for them. There is always a guy around Sainsbury's pestering people to change.
> 
> Ok. They make fantastic profits but UK utilities are still one of the cheapest in the EU. I am with British Gas for both gas and electric and am satisfied with the cost. Customer service is good too. I don't know how it would work in Spain now as it is hard enough to wade through The websites and change anything or contract new services. I could imagine being pig in the middle with two companies wrangling.


One of the perils of Consumer choice but at least in the UK - you do have a variety
of Utility companies to choose from and play one off against the other - when
haggling over prices.

In Spain there's only EDP and Iberdrola, so feels very much like a cartel here in Spain.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

There is Endesa and Fenosa in Spain as well.

I also get lost when trying to compare utility packages - there are so many if and buts. But at least you know that if you get a bad service from one company, you can at least change to another one. The feeling of helplessness can be quite soul destroying when you don't have that option.

Also UK energy might be cheap simply because the UK is an energy rich country. Spain has to import all her gas for example.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> What consitutes a "free market" is somewhat open to interpretation, but the idea is that companies (both private and public) don't work in the interests of the consumer, so you to need to create some kind of competition between them to force them to do so, along with regulations to make sure the competition is fair. Companies and individuals who cheat the the system, and therefore the consumer can be punished, something which doesn't really happen in nationalised systems.


The logic of competition in the free market is that there is a winner, a company that has an advantage over its rivals, rarely on service quality, usually on price.
Without regulation, that company can hold a quasi monopoly position in the market which is surely not in the interest of the consumer.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> There are so many companies trying to get punters to sign up it must be lucrative for them. There is always a guy around Sainsbury's pestering people to change.
> 
> .


We already get people coming round knocking on doors trying to persuade us to change suppliers or change to Endesa's fixed monthly price. One came last week asking to see my electricity bill and I got rid of him by pretending I didn't speak Spanish - worked like a charm! I really don't like these hard sell tactics, they just make me suspicious that there is more in it for the company than there is for me.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Also UK energy might be cheap simply because the UK is an energy rich country. Spain has to import all her gas for example.


On the other hand Spain exports electricity! 

BTW, I never found gas and electricity cheap in UK not since the tories privatised them.


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## smitty5668 (Feb 25, 2015)

it is a lot cheaper than in spain particularly on standing charges


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> On the other hand Spain exports electricity!
> 
> BTW, I never found gas and electricity cheap in UK not since the tories privatised them.


When I left, in 2006, I was paying 50 pounds per month for gas and electricity on a dual fuel tariff. My total spend on electricity and a full year's supply of butano (10 bottles per year) amounts to less than that, even after nearly 9 years here.

I paid a fixed monthly amount and was distinctly miffed, when I advised the company I was leaving the country, to find that my account was over 300 pounds in credit. They did refund me the money, but that amounted to 6 months' payments, and they never lowered my monthly payment because the account had gone into credit by so much. That is the main reason why I don't want to switch to a fixed monthly payment arrangement now, although Endesa is really plugging them. According to the leaflet received with my latest bill this week, based on past consumption my monthly payment would be €46 per month. However, the latest bill was only €85-odd. And if I decide to go on a fortnight's holiday, why should I want to pay them for a full month's electricity I haven't used? I'm sticking with my PVPC tariff.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

smitty5668 said:


> it is a lot cheaper than in spain particularly on standing charges


Depends on what potencia you have contracted for. If you have opted for a fully electric house and have a whacking great potencia, then of course your standing charge will be high. We have the lowest tariff and it is much cheaper than we paid in UK (here we have a 4/5 bedroomed house spread over 5 levels and in Uk we had a 1 bedroom flat)


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Spain comes out quite high for energy costs on official stats. Our electric bill was far higher in Spain than UK when we were wintering there. We pay a fixed sum in UK and are happy to do that, sometimes we are in credit other months debit. If the credit is high it takes two seconds to get a refund online.

I think it is impossible to compare as most UK houses have CH. also some people like to be warmer than others. I have 15 radiators plus 2 heated towel rails. Plus 2 electric showers. How can you compare! The price per unit is the only accurate comparison. Interesting that Germany is one of the most expensive, Prague too.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> Spain comes out quite high for energy costs on official stats. Our electric bill was far higher in Spain than UK when we were wintering there. We pay a fixed sum in UK and are happy to do that, sometimes we are in credit other months debit. If the credit is high it takes two seconds to get a refund online.
> 
> I think it is impossible to compare as most UK houses have CH. also some people like to be warmer than others. I have 15 radiators plus 2 heated towel rails. Plus 2 electric showers. How can you compare! The price per unit is the only accurate comparison. Interesting that Germany is one of the most expensive, Prague too.


I only make the comparison of how much I actually spent when I lived in the UK v how much I actually spend now. In that respect, the neither the unit cost nor the standing charges matter, it's only the total expenditure I'm interested in. Yes, I had CH in the UK and I don't here - but I had to use it for at least 8 months of the year there and here I only need heating of any kind for 4 months. Friends and family we've spoken to recently have been telliing us they've had to put their heating on in July (none of them live in the South of England). A lot of people who say they spent less on electricity in the UK than they do in Spain are not considering that they are running air conditioning and a swimming pool here which they wouldn't have had in the UK.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> The logic of competition in the free market is that there is a winner, a company that has an advantage over its rivals, rarely on service quality, usually on price.
> Without regulation, that company can hold a quasi monopoly position in the market which is surely not in the interest of the consumer.


That's what can happen sometimes, but there can also be markets where companies can be successful by finding a niche rather than by monopolising it. In the car market Rolls Royce can be successful at the same time as Ford because they have their niche.

Also some markets can be very fluid, with monopolies coming and going without the need for much regulation. 5 years ago Apple monopolised smart phones, but it didn't take long for the competition to introduce alternatives ad break the monopoly. 

The problem with utilities is the dependency on an underlying infrastructure, and the huge initial capital outlay makes it harder for new players to enter the competition.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Chopera, are there many on installed gas in the north of Spain?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> That's what can happen sometimes, but there can also be markets where companies can be successful by finding a niche rather than by monopolising it. In the car market Rolls Royce can be successful at the same time as Ford because they have their niche.
> 
> Also some markets can be very fluid, with monopolies coming and going without the need for much regulation. 5 years ago Apple monopolised smart phones, but it didn't take long for the competition to introduce alternatives ad break the monopoly.
> 
> The problem with utilities is the dependency on an underlying infrastructure, and the huge initial capital outlay makes it harder for new players to enter the competition.


Yes, I agree with that. 
Rolls Royce received large amounts of public money back in the 1970s, didn't it? I seem to have vague memories of it being 'rescued'. Does BMW still own a major share?

Interestingly, if I remember rightly, Thatcher sold off BT not because of ideological zeal but because the companyfaced two problems, one a large hole in its pension fund and the other the need to overhaul and modernise its systems.
As she felt that using public money wouldn't go down well at that time, early 1980s, the only solution was to look to private investment which couldn't be done with a publicly- owned utility. Hence the sell- off.

I can't remember what we paid in the UK ten years ago for gas and electricity but think it was around £120 a month for the two. In Prague seven years ago we paid £350 a month for electricity, no gas, for a spacious but very well insulated house. We lived in a hamlet where most of the few houses had no mains water so every time we turned on a tap or flushed the loo we used electricity to pump water from our well.
This a short drive from the capital city...
The first year in the house a fuel tanker took a sharp bend too fast in the narrow road at the bottom of the hill, crashed through a low bridge over a stream and contaminated the ground water. The clean-Up took over a year during which time the unfortunate residents at the foot of the hill had to get drinking water from huge tankers. We were just above the affected zone.
Our electricity bill averages here at €150 a month for an all- electric house with pool and irrigation. We supplement with about six canisters of gas for heating in winter. This year we've used aircon for the first time so the average for theyear will be higher, obviously.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Isobella said:


> Chopera, are there many on installed gas in the north of Spain?


I'm in Madrid, where it seems only newer houses are connected to the gas mains. I doubt that many have mains gas in the north of Spain, but I couldn't say for sure.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I know some areas of Southern Spain have it - we rented an ático in Sevilla about 3 years ago for a holiday which had gas central heating. It was in a recently built block so I don't suppose many older properties have it. Cordoba has natural gas too, and there are natural gas suppliers in Torre del Mar so it must be available in at least some areas there.

According to this 2013 article there were 7.2 million natural gas customers in Spain at that time, and many people were returning to using butano as a consequence of the crisis and rising energy prices.


Los hogares españoles vuelven a la bombona de butano, acuciados por el alza del gas y la electricidad


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I can't remember what we paid in the UK ten years ago for gas and electricity but think it was around £120 a month for the two.
> Our electricity bill averages here at €150 a month for an all- electric house with pool and irrigation. We supplement with about six canisters of gas for heating in winter. This year we've used aircon for the first time so the average for theyear will be higher, obviously.


That's interesting, Mary. Although your bills in both countries are substantially higher than mine, your total annual expenditure on domestic energy now in Spain is, like mine, lower than when you left the UK ten years ago (about €200 lower at today's exchange rate), and that doesn't take account of the price rises which have happened since then in the UK.

See this graph to illustrate just how much they have gone up (and some interesting commentary on why they went up so much).


https://www.theenergyshop.com/HomeEnergy/advice-guides-energyInflation#.VcS99_ntmko


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> That's interesting, Mary. Although your bills in both countries are substantially higher than mine, your total annual expenditure on domestic energy now in Spain is, like mine, lower than when you left the UK ten years ago (about €200 lower at today's exchange rate), and that doesn't take account of the price rises which have happened since then in the UK.
> 
> See this graph to illustrate just how much they have gone up (and some interesting commentary on why they went up so much).
> 
> ...


and the profit takers have to have a larger cut to keep their big-business shareholders happy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> That's interesting, Mary. Although your bills in both countries are substantially higher than mine, your total annual expenditure on domestic energy now in Spain is, like mine, lower than when you left the UK ten years ago (about €200 lower at today's exchange rate), and that doesn't take account of the price rises which have happened since then in the UK.
> 
> See this graph to illustrate just how much they have gone up (and some interesting commentary on why they went up so much).
> 
> ...


I used to keep detailed records of expenditure on everything in the UK and all utility and Council Tax bills.
I lost my records in one of our four moves since 2005 but the amount of around £1200 for a year's gas supply sticks in my mind. I think we paid a SO of £60 a month for electricity.
I do expect our Endesa bills to be higher over this year as we bought a second freezer and as I said we've used aircon all night in the bedroom, first time ever.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> I used to keep detailed records of expenditure on everything in the UK and all utility and Council Tax bills.
> I lost my records in one of our four moves since 2005 but the amount of around £1200 for a year's gas supply sticks in my mind. I think we paid a SO of £60 a month for electricity.
> I do expect our Endesa bills to be higher over this year as we bought a second freezer and as I said we've used aircon all night in the bedroom, first time ever.


So your annual spend 10 years ago in the UK would have been 1940, or €2688 using an exchange rate of €1.40. With your current electricity bills of €150 per month plus €105 for 6 gas bottles at the old price of €17.50 (they're down to €13.42 at the moment but will probably go back up in winter when people are using more) that makes a total annual spend of €1905 in Spain, so even if your bills this year are higher you still have quite a way to go before you'd be spending the same as you were there 10 years ago. Then add on the price rises in the UK over the last 10 years.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> So your annual spend 10 years ago in the UK would have been 1940, or €2688 using an exchange rate of €1.40. With your current electricity bills of €150 per month plus €105 for 6 gas bottles at the old price of €17.50 (they're down to €13.42 at the moment but will probably go back up in winter when people are using more) that makes a total annual spend of €1905 in Spain, so even if your bills this year are higher you still have quite a way to go before you'd be spending the same as you were there 10 years ago. Then add on the price rises in the UK over the last 10 years.


Yes, I can't complain I moaned about the cost in the CR, though, and often wondered how people managed to cope with the bills. No wonder people heated with vile, sulphurous poor grade coal or by burning plastic bottles even. Air quality was vile.
The cost wasn't helped by the fact that everything in the house was electric, from the usual things to pumping up water to opening the gates and garage doors. Yet the insulation was first rate and many of the rooms had wooden ceilings and wall panels. 
I'm not so sure we even use six gas bottles. Both Sandra and I grew up in houses with no central heating and were told to put on a jumper or move around if we complained of the cold so we probably tolerate lower temperatures than most people.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I still believe the only accurate comparison is by unit. Who uses what is as long as a piece of string. Have been in houses where you want to wear a coat, others stiflingly hot. Some never cook, it goes on and on. Going back to the original question I do think competition keeps companies on their toes, look at how broadband prices have dropped in Spain after Telefonica lost the monopoly. However, there is a certain amount of ring fencing too. Looking at a chart of costs t hroughout Europe I am not grumbling.

I pay £120 per month now for dual gas/ electric fixed tariffs and don't scrimp. Always lashings of hot water and cosy in winter. Depends on the property too, last property we had we were paying more for almost identical house. This one luckily seems to hold the heat.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> I still believe the only accurate comparison is by unit. Who uses what is as long as a piece of string. Have been in houses where you want to wear a coat, others stiflingly hot. Some never cook, it goes on and on. Going back to the original question I do think competition keeps companies on their toes, look at how broadband prices have dropped in Spain after Telefonica lost the monopoly. However, there is a certain amount of ring fencing too. Looking at a chart of costs t hroughout Europe I am not grumbling.
> 
> 
> .


Well, that's just why I believe each individual comparing what they themselves spent in the UK with what they spend in Spain (and not what somebody else spends) is more useful than comparing unit costs. What's the point of comparing unit costs if you have to use more of something in one country or another?

Energy prices haven't dropped in either Spain or the UK since privatisation, to a greater or lesser degree, was introduced.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> Energy prices haven't dropped in either Spain or the UK since privatisation, to a greater or lesser degree, was introduced.


Which isn't surprising, since the aim of privatisation is not only to end monopolies (as if there were no private monopolies ) but to make the enterprise profitable for shareholders.

I'm not sure I want to see the utilities taken back into public ownership as we moaned about them then and in any case how could that be done when some water companies are owned by the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund and the French Government owns shares in the electricity industry.
But I do think we need public control. Ideally I would have liked to have seen the gas, water and electricity industries run by not-for-profit organisations with strict service level agreements and management devolved to the lowest feasible level, probably the municipality. I suppose the best we can hope for now is some limitation on the division of profit between shareholders, the users and for investment in new, preferably green, technology based on renewables.
I'm not keeping my fingers crossed...


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Chopera said:


> I'm in Madrid, where it seems only newer houses are connected to the gas mains. I doubt that many have mains gas in the north of Spain, but I couldn't say for sure.


I'm 40km north of Madrid and we were connected to natural gas about 8 years ago. Before that it was a propane tank in the garden with deliveries taking 4 working days to arrive and, of course, one had to be at home just in case or the 4-day count began again. 
Not only was piped gas easier, it was cheaper by far. This being Spain, we had to pay for the installation, including €x/meter for the copper pipe. This being Spain, when the meter developed a leak last year, it was deemed to be ours and we had to pay for the repairs!
Rant over.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Apart from lugging frozen bombonas with freezing snow on the tops in the winter, I don't have a problem with bombonas, unless, of course, they run out mid shower which is a rare occurrence.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Apart from lugging frozen bombonas with freezing snow on the tops in the winter, I don't have a problem with bombonas, unless, of course, they run out mid shower which is a rare occurrence.


That's the reason why we changed the gas water heater which was in our house when we bought it for an electric one, which doesn't seem expensive to run.

Even if we had natural gas where we live (which we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting, although it may one day be available in the town centre) I don't think I would go to the expense of having it connected and central heating installed, plus paying another set of standing charges, because we only need heating for 4 months of the year and the outlay doesn't seem worth it. I'd like a pellet stove instead but we can't see where we could put one in this house. If we move in the future that will definitely be a consideration when looking for another property, though.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> That's the reason why we changed the gas water heater which was in our house when we bought it for an electric one, which doesn't seem expensive to run.
> 
> Even if we had natural gas where we live (which we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting, although it may one day be available in the town centre) I don't think I would go to the expense of having it connected and central heating installed, plus paying another set of standing charges, because we only need heating for 4 months of the year and the outlay doesn't seem worth it. I'd like a pellet stove instead but we can't see where we could put one in this house. If we move in the future that will definitely be a consideration when looking for another property, though.


We are in a similar situation regarding the pellet stove, especially for an automatic feed - there is nowhere to store the pellets to feed from on the ground floor. So for the time being it is the log-burner with logs stored off the patio two floors below - at least there is no standing charges and the logs are cheap enough, so that it costs us only about 100-250€ (depending on how cold it is) per winter.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Sorry to bump this old thread but having got on top of my electricity usage, I'm now seeing what I can do about the gas and can't seem to find too many posts about gas unit costs. 

Has anyone found a gas/electric package that is worth while? Or where I can find info on the various unit costs (gas) for different suppliers?

Anyone care to say what their gas unit and kWh rates are?

Thanks


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Desiato said:


> Sorry to bump this old thread but having got on top of my electricity usage, I'm now seeing what I can do about the gas and can't seem to find too many posts about gas unit costs.
> 
> Has anyone found a gas/electric package that is worth while? Or where I can find info on the various unit costs (gas) for different suppliers?
> 
> ...


I suspect few people are using 'town gas' as it's such a rare commodity and is so expensive. Properties in the campo can't get it and many towns are yet geared up for it.

My town (Ontinyent) has a population of about 33000 yet has still not completely finished the installation of gas pipes.

To keep the costs down, have you thought of using bottled gas?


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> To keep the costs down, have you thought of using bottled gas?


It has crossed my mind but it's quite a big house so little free-standing heaters wouldn't really work. Is it possible to switch the boiler to bottle use? (gas and electric's are not my strong points).


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Desiato said:


> It has crossed my mind but it's quite a big house so little free-standing heaters wouldn't really work. Is it possible to switch the boiler to bottle use? (gas and electric's are not my strong points).


Yes. That's what I meant really. Use your existing boiler etc. but on bottled gas instead - it's a simple conversion.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> Yes. That's what I meant really. Use your existing boiler etc. but on bottled gas instead - it's a simple conversion.


I've known about converting your hob to LPG for decades but never heard anyone mention boilers, nice one! I'll look into it.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Desiato said:


> Sorry to bump this old thread but having got on top of my electricity usage, I'm now seeing what I can do about the gas and can't seem to find too many posts about gas unit costs.
> 
> Has anyone found a gas/electric package that is worth while? Or where I can find info on the various unit costs (gas) for different suppliers?
> 
> ...


I use natural gas and my previous supplier has just been replaced by Endesa Gas. My last bill shows a KWh rate of 0.044, standing charge of 0.29/day, 2.14 for meter rent plus hydrocarbon tax of 0.00234 per KWh.
Gas central heating (it's cold here at 3000'!)and hot water, plus IVA(VAT) meant a total bill of €124 for Oct-Dec.
In the summer it is normally less than €50. These are bi-monthly bills.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Which isn't surprising, since the aim of privatisation is not only to end monopolies (as if there were no private monopolies ) but to make the enterprise profitable for shareholders.
> 
> I'm not sure I want to see the utilities taken back into public ownership as we moaned about them then and in any case how could that be done when some water companies are owned by the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund and the French Government owns shares in the electricity industry.
> But I do think we need public control. Ideally I would have liked to have seen the gas, water and electricity industries run by not-for-profit organisations with strict service level agreements and management devolved to the lowest feasible level, probably the municipality. I suppose the best we can hope for now is some limitation on the division of profit between shareholders, the users and for investment in new, preferably green, technology based on renewables.
> I'm not keeping my fingers crossed...


An old post but I couldn't resist...


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

Lynn R said:


> And more recently:-
> 
> Energy Secretary orders Big Six to cut bills - Telegraph
> 
> I like the word "orders". The Government has no power to order private companies to do any such thing.


Oh yes they do. It is called 'passing a law'. Like it or not, that is what politicians are there to do.

Otherwise 'private individuals' would be free to kill each other, rob each other ... and private companies would still be sending small boys up chimneys, or the 21st C equiv


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

Lynn R said:


> If the private companies need to be properly regulated, isn't that an admission that a free market wouldn't work in the interests of the consumer?


Never heard of a shareholder meeting then?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

captainendeavour said:


> Never heard of a shareholder meeting then?


Does it follow that a shareholder is automatically a consumer, then? Because every consumer is certainly not a shareholder. I suppose it could be said that we were, before privatisation. I would have thought the shareholders' interests are primarily in the profitability of the business, not whether they offer the best value to the consumer.


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## captainendeavour (Jan 14, 2016)

Lynn R said:


> We already get people coming round knocking on doors trying to persuade us to change suppliers or change to Endesa's fixed monthly price. One came last week asking to see my electricity bill and I got rid of him by pretending I didn't speak Spanish - worked like a charm! I really don't like these hard sell tactics, they just make me suspicious that there is more in it for the company than there is for me.


There is. Not least the wages of the person with a foot in yr door. 

When people turned up at my boatyard to enquire about a mooring I did indeed have their satisfaction with my setup in mind, Together we admired the picture postcard view. I explained the moorings/winter storage package. I described the delights of the 8 mile trip on a falling tide to pass through The Narrows into Plymouth Sound

But deep down inside I was screaming "Just sign up for a mooring fer Kryzake! RBS is threatening to send down Lee Van Cleef!"


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