# Permanent Residency Question



## yamabob (May 23, 2018)

I plan on retiring to Mexico in about 3 years. I have now acquired a residence. My wifes pension will afford us to live well and she would qualify by I myself do not. While I'm still working up here-can I apply for permanent residency now? With out first getting temporary. Thanks


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

yamabob said:


> I plan on retiring to Mexico in about 3 years. I have now acquired a residence. My wifes pension will afford us to live well and she would qualify by I myself do not. While I'm still working up here-can I apply for permanent residency now? With out first getting temporary. Thanks


 If I understand your question, you would like to apply for permanent residency now while you are working, because after you retire your income will be insufficient for a visa.

You can go directly to a residencial permanente without first getting a residencial temporal if you have sufficient income. However, note that there may be restrictions on the time out of the country for visa holders. I couldn't find anything about it, but maybe someone else knows.


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## yamabob (May 23, 2018)

That's exactly the question. Time out of country would be a problem for now. It seems every time I read something- I get different information. That however could be the Tequilla ( Mom always said practice makes perfect and I'm going to nail the tequilla part down


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

http://www.diputados.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/pdf/LMigra_091117.pdf

Google Translation:

"MIGRATION LAW
CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES OF THE H. CONGRESS OF THE UNION
General Secretary
Secretariat of Parliamentary Services
Last Reform DOF 09-11-2017

"18 of 51
CHAPTER II
OF THE STAY OF FOREIGNERS IN THE NATIONAL TERRITORY
Article 52. Foreigners may remain in the national territory under the conditions of
stay of visitor, temporary resident and permanent resident, provided that they meet the requirements
established in this Law, its Regulations and other applicable legal provisions, in accordance with
the next:
The visa accredits requirements for a stay condition and authorizes the foreigner to appear in
any place destined to the international transit of people and request their entrance to the country in said stay condition, notwithstanding that later obtain a residence card.

IX. PERMANENT RESIDENT. Authorizes the foreigner to remain in the national territory of
indefinitely, with permission to work in exchange for remuneration in the country.
Article 53. Visitors, with the exception of those for humanitarian reasons and those who have
Mexican or foreigner with regular residence in Mexico can not change their condition
stay and will have to leave the country at the end of the period of authorized stay.
Article 54. The status of permanent resident will be granted to the foreigner who is located in
any of the following assumptions:

I. For reasons of political asylum, recognition of refugee status and protection
complementary or by the determination of stateless person, previous fulfillment of the requirements established in
this Law, its Regulations and other applicable legal provisions;
II. For the right to the preservation of the family unit in the cases of article 55 of this Law;
III. That they are retired or pensioned that they receive of a foreign government or of organisms
international companies or private companies for services provided abroad, an income that
allow to live in the country;
III. That they are retired or pensioned that they receive of a foreign government or of organisms
international companies or private companies for services provided abroad, an income that
allow to live in the country;
IV. By decision of the Institute, according to the system of points established for that purpose, in terms
of article 57 of this Law;
V. Because four years have passed since the foreigner has a permit from
temporary residence;
Vl. For having children of Mexican nationality by birth, and
VII. Being an ascendant or descendant in a straight line up to the second degree of a Mexican
birth.
Foreigners who are granted permanent residence status will have
the possibility of obtaining a work permit in exchange for remuneration in the country subject to a
offer of employment, and with the right to enter and leave the national territory as many times as they wish.

Also, permanent residents may buy and sell their personal real estate property, in the form and terms
determined by the applicable legislation.

Temporary Resident:
"The persons referred to in the preceding paragraphs will be authorized to reside regularly in national territory under the condition of a temporary resident, with the possibility of obtaining a permission to work in exchange for remuneration in the country subject to an offer of employment, and with right to enter and leave the national territory as many times as they wish.
In the event that the temporary resident has an offer of employment, permission will be granted to work in exchange for remuneration in the country, in the activity related to said offer of job.
Foreigners who are granted temporary resident status may
buy and sell your personal real estate property, in the form and terms determined by the applicable legislation."

There is no máximum time out of the country law or rule for Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente visa/card holders since the 2011 INM law was enacted on Nov. 9th. 2012. Residente Temporal visas/cards expire. Residente Permanente visas/cards don´t expire.

This law:" III. That they are retired or pensioned that they receive of a foreign government or of organisms international companies or private companies for services provided abroad, an income that allow to live in the country [Mexico];"

To me this should mean to continue to have this income when actually living in Mexico; such as a trust fund or profits from ownership of a foreign company, working online etc. - not a regular salaried job that you quit when immigrating to Mexico. If you apply at a Mx. Consulate I assume they will not accept paystubs anymore as a few consulates have done in the past and only for RT visas not RP visas, if I remember correctly. The law above is clear to me you need to keep recieving this income when living in Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

On reading it again I now guess it means a pension from foreign government or pension from a private company for past services provided (employment) and not current services provided. Google misses some points in their translations that misled me at times. A trust fund is also usable in the conte t of steady income to live off of in Mexico. Payments (income) from any source I presume also while retired living in Mexico.

"III. Que sean jubilados o pensionados que perciban de un gobierno extranjero o de organismos
internacionales o de empresas particulares por servicios prestados en el exterior, un ingreso que les
permita vivir en el país;"


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> You can go directly to a residencial permanente without first getting a residencial temporal if you have sufficient income. However, note that there may be restrictions on the time out of the country for visa holders. I couldn't find anything about it, but maybe someone else knows.


I have held a residente permanente visa for several years. As far as I know, there are no restrictions on the amount of time I can spend out of the country, but unfortunately I have no written information I can refer you to. You could ask at the your nearest US Consulate in the States, though they aren't always as up-to-date on Mexican immigration policies as they should be since they belong to a different branch of the Mexican national government.


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

With residency, you can leave and enter the country as often as you like; there are no restrictions from what I understand. I pulled this translation from another forum:

MIGRATION LAW - CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES OF THE H. CONGRESS OF THE UNION
General Secretary
Secretariat of Parliamentary Services
Last Reform DOF 09-11-2017

Google Translation:
"18 of 51, CHAPTER II
OF THE STAY OF FOREIGNERS IN THE NATIONAL TERRITORY
Article 52. Foreigners may remain in the national territory under the conditions of
stay of visitor, temporary resident and permanent resident, provided that they meet the requirements established in this Law, its Regulations and other applicable legal provisions, in accordance with the next:
The visa accredits requirements for a stay condition and authorizes the foreigner to appear in
any place destined to the international transit of people and request their entrance to the country in said stay condition, notwithstanding that later obtain a residence card.
IX. PERMANENT RESIDENT. Authorizes the foreigner to remain in the national territory of
indefinitely, with permission to work in exchange for remuneration in the country.
Article 53. Visitors, with the exception of those for humanitarian reasons and those who have
Mexican or foreigner with regular residence in Mexico can not change their condition
stay and will have to leave the country at the end of the period of authorized stay.
Article 54. The status of permanent resident will be granted to the foreigner who is located in
any of the following assumptions:
I. For reasons of political asylum, recognition of refugee status and protection
complementary or by the determination of stateless person, previous fulfillment of the requirements established in this Law, its Regulations and other applicable legal provisions;
II. For the right to the preservation of the family unit in the cases of article 55 of this Law;
III. That they are retired or pensioned that they receive of a foreign government or of organisms
international companies or private companies for services provided abroad, an income that
allow to live in the country;
III. That they are retired or pensioned that they receive of a foreign government or of organisms
international companies or private companies for services provided abroad, an income that
allow to live in the country;
IV. By decision of the Institute, according to the system of points established for that purpose, in terms of article 57 of this Law;
V. Because four years have passed since the foreigner has a permit from temporary residence;
Vl. For having children of Mexican nationality by birth, and
VII. Being an ascendant or descendant in a straight line up to the second degree of a Mexican
birth.
Foreigners who are granted permanent residence status will have the possibility of obtaining a work permit in exchange for remuneration in the country subject to a offer of employment, and *with the right to enter and leave the national territory as many times as they wish.*

Also, permanent residents may buy and sell their personal real estate property, in the form and terms determined by the applicable legislation."

There is no máximum time out of the country law or rule for Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente visa/card holders since the 2011 INM law was enacted on Nov. 9th. 2012. Residente Temporal visas/cards expire. Residente Permanente visas/cards don´t expire. The maximum time out of the country limit is/was a rumor."


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

I don't believe there are any restrictions on time out of country. The one exception would be if you want to go to citizenship later, then it's no more than 180 days out of the previous two years (or something similar to that), but that is not the permanente per se.

What's all this google business? Just read the original! I believe Alan is correct though, permanente in your case is most likely meant for someone with retirement income, but I think that might vary some by consulate.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

xolo said:


> I don't believe there are any restrictions on time out of country. The one exception would be if you want to go to citizenship later, then it's no more than 180 days out of the previous two years (or something similar to that), but that is not the permanente per se.
> 
> What's all this google business? Just read the original! I believe Alan is correct though, permanente in your case is most likely meant for someone with retirement income, but I think that might vary some by consulate.


I was probably confusing the requirement for citizenship applications with a general constraint on time out of the country. When I applied for citizenship, they very carefully counted the number of days I had been out of the country. I think the limit was 180 days in the previous three years. But this is separate from limitations on visa holders in general. Apparently there are none.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

EmilyTravels said:


> With residency, you can leave and enter the country as often as you like; there are no restrictions from what I understand. I pulled this translation from another forum:
> 
> MIGRATION LAW - CHAMBER OF DEPUTIES"


 Emily I am alleycat1 on that forum. This is my post you copied. I copied here too. jajajaja


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

AlanMexicali said:


> Emily I am alleycat1 on that forum. This is my post you copied. I copied here too. jajajaja


:clap2: 

Hope you don't mind me copying your post here -- I thought it was very helpful!


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## yamabob (May 23, 2018)

Thanks guys. Most of what I see is related to retirement income but I'm going to try and use current income. It's nice to see that really is a time out of country restriction. I do have a local contact down there that can assist . Maybe time to take a ride to the consulate and see what they say as well


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## mexine (Nov 6, 2012)

Whether this will prove helpful, I'm not sure. But in brief, here is what I went through to receive permanent residency in Mexico:
Both my wife and I are retired. She is a Mexican citizen which facilitated my application in the first place, though I never had previously obtained the official status of temporary resident. At the Mexican Consulate in San Francisco I showed up with our latest bank statement along with evidence of our monthly income (basically her pension, as I am holding off from collecting social security still and neither of us are presently employed.) While neither sum was substantial, they were enough to qualify by the Mexican govenment's standards. Upon approval I received a 30-day visa attached to my passport. The next time we went to Mexico (our home is in Tequisquiapan, Queretaro) I had a 30 day deadline to report to an Instituto de Inmigracion. In the capital city of Queretaro I had to visit their office three times to finally make it work, but once I had fulfilled the legal requirements and paid approximately $425 US I received the coveted green card. It clearly states that it allows me to come and go to/from Mexico as I please and without limits.
I cannot tell whether you could repeat this scenario while still working in the US, but if you had a Mexican address and sufficient time to spend there negotiating the Instituto de Inmigracion's bureaucracy I believe you could make it happen. 
Good luck, and if I can answer any questions I'd be happy to try.


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## yamabob (May 23, 2018)

Thanks a bunch. It's seems I have made my bank account disappear. My working income should be more than enough that's why I'm going to go that route. Bank statement not so much. I'll never know till I try I guess.


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## tomwins (Dec 27, 2014)

I would be surprised if you can use working income to qualify. The rules are clear, it must be a pension (retirement income) or saving/investment income.

I retired almost three years ago but we applied for permanent residency prior to my retirement. I used my investment account. At that time I had to show I had an account balance of $85,000 USD for more than 12 months. The amount you'll need to show depends on the current limit (reset every January) with adjustment for the MXN to USD exchange rate.

If you don't qualify for the amount of the Permanent, the amount for the Temporary is lower (a good bit). By year three of paying for your annual fees, you'll end up paying more than you would if you were able to get a Permanent Residency. Not to mention having to do the paperwork and bring in documents every year. But I know many people who are here exactly because they didn't qualify for the RP but could qualify for the RT.

And if you end up able to meet the qualifications for PR earlier, you can always change to that even before the four years.

Call the consulate where you'll be submitting your application - typically the one closest to you but it could be any consulate outside of Mexico. Ask them to give you the current amount you need for both the Permanente and the Temporal. Then ask them what else you need to submit (since you've got them on the phone.) Be careful as each consulate is a little different and some have special requirements. For example, I had to write a letter saying I would not engage in employment but was entering as a retiree. I suppose this was because I was still working (for two weeks) when we submitted our applications to the consulate.

Please just be honest with them about your situation. They are not wanting to keep you out but they do want to be sure you qualify. 

As a last option you can do what a lot of people do and stay here on a tourist visa and then travel out of the country (US, South America, Cuba, Belize...) for a long weekend and then come back. They are beginning to get tougher on this so you can't come and go in the same day but there are many places with easy access from the boarder where you can stay for a short stay and then return. I know it is not ideal but it is a viable third option if you don't qualify for either the perm or temp.


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## dogtags (Apr 24, 2011)

As long as you you're married, I believe that you qualify using your monthly JOINT income, regardless who contributes the most. At least this was the case for us when getting our Residente Temporal. Residente Permanente income requirements are a bit higher, of course.

After all, there are lots of couples that have disparate individual income. If married, joint income applies.


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## Tye 1on (Jun 2, 2018)

tomwins said:


> I would be surprised if you can use working income to qualify. The rules are clear, it must be a pension (retirement income) or saving/investment income.
> 
> I retired almost three years ago but we applied for permanent residency prior to my retirement. I used my investment account. At that time I had to show I had an account balance of $85,000 USD for more than 12 months. The amount you'll need to show depends on the current limit (reset every January) with adjustment for the MXN to USD exchange rate.


Interesting. I'm a few years behind you but you got me thinking. My fed retirement account (TSP) has $100k+, but I'm not sure I can even tap in to it before i'm 62, or would obviously have big penalties if I could. I plan to work til 62 then pull half of the plug (six months in Mexico) for 2-3 years then full-time (9-10 months) after that. 

Could I [should I?] apply for permanent status in the next year or two based on investment income even though I'll only be spending a few weeks a year there until i'm 62? Any downside? My only and slight concern is that if I wait until I'm ready to move our economy could be in the middle of another correction, which could potentially drive the investment values below the minimum. Thanks for any insights!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

tomwins said:


> I would be surprised if you can use working income to qualify. The rules are clear, it must be a pension (retirement income) or saving/investment income.…


Is that true? I thought they just looked for regular deposits to a bank account, and did not look at the source of the income at all. In fact, I have heard of people that moved some money back and forth between two accounts so that one account showed a regular deposit of the same amount every month. I don't know if that was apocryphal, but I didn't think it mattered where the money came from: job versus pension versus social security.


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

TundraGreen said:


> Is that true? I thought they just looked for regular deposits to a bank account, and did not look at the source of the income at all. In fact, I have heard of people that moved some money back and forth between two accounts so that one account showed a regular deposit of the same amount every month. I don't know if that was apocryphal, but I didn't think it mattered where the money came from: job versus pension versus social security.


I have read different things and wonder if it depends on the consulate? I have read that it has to be retirement income if using the monthly income criteria to qualify, but that if you are using savings/investments, then it doesn't matter.

We're going to find out soon as we will be applying for PR and do not have retirement income yet, although we are retired. We have "potential" retirement income (SS for my husband and a pension for me that I haven't started drawing from), and we have income from a mortage we financed for the buyer of a condo we sold. But I expect we will end up qualifying by the savings/investment criteria since we're not actually receiving any retirement income yet.

I will post after we go to the consulate and let you know what they say in our case.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

There's SRE webpages and documents that can be googled. It might depend on the consulate but the SRE sites say there are only two ways to apply: family link or retired. (Unless there's more to it than what first meets the eye.)

I'll post one...

https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-permanente


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

xolo said:


> There's SRE webpages and documents that can be googled. It might depend on the consulate but the SRE sites say there are only two ways to apply: family link or retired. (Unless there's more to it than what first meets the eye.)
> 
> I'll post one...
> 
> https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-permanente


Interesting. The residencia temporal page lists lots of ways one might qualify, but the residencia permanente page lists just two as you point out.

https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-permanente

https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-temporal


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

I have read so many different things on different forums and blogs that we're just going to go to the consulate with all our financial documents and see what they say. Apparently some consulates interpret the rules differently than others; some much more strictly and some more leniently. We know we have enough assets to live comfortably in Mexico (and in fact, did live in Playa del Carmen for a year), but if they don't agree, so be it. Worst case, I am sure we'll qualify for temporal, and that's fine if that is how it ends up. I'm not to second guess anything until we have our appointment and see what they tell us.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Interesting. The residencia temporal page lists lots of ways one might qualify, but the residencia permanente page lists just two as you point out.
> 
> https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-permanente
> 
> https://www.gob.mx/sre/acciones-y-programas/visa-de-residencia-temporal


It looks like the government wants to make it more difficult to to get an RP visa than to be eligible for an RT visa.


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

Isla Verde said:


> It looks like the government wants to make it more difficult to to get an RP visa than to be eligible for an RT visa.


My understanding is that the RP is solely intended for retired people (and family members of Mexican citizens/residents).

The gray area seems to be those of us who are retired but not drawing on Social Security or a pension (yet). If we have other legal means of supporting ourselves, can we still be approved for RP? 

That will be up to the Consulate. My husband, at 64, _could _be drawing Social Security but is not. He has started to draw down an IRA, but most of our income/living expenses comes from a mortgage payment for a condo sale we financed for the buyer. I think he'll have a pretty good chance of getting approved. My situation is a bit less confident, since I am 57. Too young to draw Social Security or take money out of my IRA without incurring large penalties. I do have a company pension I could be drawing off of as of age 55, but I don't think the monthly stipend is high enough to qualify me for RP. Trying to get that information now. If not, I will go for RT.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Emily, trying to get a definitive answer on a web forum can be problematic. If you haven't already looked, your consulate might have an English-language web page with some information. It's pretty common for someone to say the obligatory "Each consulate is different" which I interpret to mean "Mexico is disorganized as opposed to the organized US" which I don't necessary believe as an ideology. It's simply a complex subject.

Also, as I posted and Tundra followed-up, its pretty easy to google official Mexican government websites that are clearly written (not disorganized, but no one ever notes that). Some people on the forum are fluent in Spanish and some are not, but if you're like most, you're a student of Spanish. It would be good homework to translate those websites. You've got lots of tools like google translate to get started, if you haven't already done so.


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

xolo said:


> Emily, trying to get a definitive answer on a web forum can be problematic. If you haven't already looked, your consulate might have an English-language web page with some information. It's pretty common for someone to say the obligatory "Each consulate is different" which I interpret to mean "Mexico is disorganized as opposed to the organized US" which I don't necessary believe as an ideology. It's simply a complex subject.
> 
> Also, as I posted and Tundra followed-up, its pretty easy to google official Mexican government websites that are clearly written (not disorganized, but no one ever notes that). Some people on the forum are fluent in Spanish and some are not, but if you're like most, you're a student of Spanish. It would be good homework to translate those websites. You've got lots of tools like google translate to get started, if you haven't already done so.


I just took a look and finally found the official document on the Orlando Consulate website for RP. Using Google Translate, here is what they require for income or investments:

a) Retirees or pensioners:
1. Original and copy of investment voucher or bank accounts with balance
monthly average equivalent to $ 130,000.00 USD during the last twelve
months, or
2. Original and copy of documents that show that you have a pension
with monthly income free of liens greater than the equivalent of
$ 2,500.00 USD during the last six months.

So, I guess that is the definitive answer, but I read elsewhere (on a blog or forum) that you have to "prove" that you are retired (for RP), and if that's the case, the only way I know to do so is to show no income subject to Social Security tax for the past several years. When we go to the consulate, we will take our SS estimate statements in in case they are helpful or required.


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## Tye 1on (Jun 2, 2018)

The Las Vegas Consulate has a handy PDF that breaks it down pretty clearly. link


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

Tye 1on said:


> The Las Vegas Consulate has a handy PDF that breaks it down pretty clearly. link


Thanks -- that's definitely clearer than the Orlando consulate!

The solvency requirement, as I understand it, adjusts every January based on the USD/peso exchange rate. The Orlando Consulate shows it for 2018 as $130,000 USD, the highest I've seen. I suspect that is correct based on the exchange rate this year. 

I thought it was interesting that the Las Vegas consulate mentions income from "pensions, bank account, or _employment_", where the Orlando and elsewhere, I've seen pension income only. Employment implies that a person is not retired, or so I thought. :confused2:

No matter, we should qualify based on the investment account criteria. We will definitely go in prepared with all the documentation!


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

EmilyTravels said:


> The solvency requirement, as I understand it, adjusts every January based on the USD/peso exchange rate. The Orlando Consulate shows it for 2018 as $130,000 USD, the highest I've seen. I suspect that is correct based on the exchange rate this year. !




I believe the fees or numbers are based on the minimum wage for CDMX each year...


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

chicois8 said:


> I believe the fees or numbers are based on the minimum wage for CDMX each year...


That's correct; it's some multiple of that. Given that, they use the peso to USD exchange rate to put out the number for US folks every year.


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

I have a question for those of you who have been through the process of applying for either temporary or permanent residency.

For the investment account requirement, it is stated that you must show "original and copy" of account statements. What if you (like we) receive all your statements online, not any "original" copies in the mail? I am sure with the push towards paperless billing, statements, etc., many people are in this situation. 

Does printing a statement from the financial institution's website fill the requirement for an "original"? Or do we have to request actual physical copies from each financial institution?

Thanks much!


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Most folks find that a good printout, with any color the letterhead may contain, will do the trick for the "original". Then, a black and white copy will be sufficient for the "copy".


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## EmilyTravels (May 19, 2018)

RVGRINGO said:


> Most folks find that a good printout, with any color the letterhead may contain, will do the trick for the "original". Then, a black and white copy will be sufficient for the "copy".


Good to know. I guess I need to spring for a new color cartridge for my printer...have been getting by with black and white only for some time. Thanks!


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