# Marrying a Thai girl - help please?



## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Firstly - hello to everyone - this is my first post and I would be very grateful for some informed advice as this is much on my mind.

I am nearly 66 (come Christmas Day this year) and I have been corresponding with a lovely Thai girl of 28 who is a Uni student. She comes from a traditional Buddhist family and we have been chatting since the end of July. I am currently in the middle of a divorce, Decree Nisi 7th Dec this year, Decree Absolute 20th Jan next year. A friend of mine some 5 years older met his wife on the same web site and recommended I try it when he heard of my marital woes. After trawling through many thousands of ladies this particular girl caught my heart and I wrote to her hardlly expecting a reply. To cut this short - she replied and since then we have spent many hours a day in google chat and Skype calls and felt we had fallen in love. 
Because I have 2 teenage kids I wanted to not only go there and meet her but bring her and her older sister (as chaperone) here to meet my kids. I went there and from the outset she displayed love for me and I felt the same for her. We now know thjat we are in love with each other for real - not just as internet "partners". UKBA refused both visitor visas saying that balance of probabilities was that they would not return to Thailand - a nonsense as she has to be back for her Graduation in December and her sister who was married (now abandoned by her Jap husband), owns her own house and has a child there. Reasons were no proof of income for the sister, nor proof of ownership of the town house, and for my love no proof offered that she was a genuine Uni student. 

We lived together for a 8 day period, and I came home but not before we had a trad Thai "wedding" and I bought rings etc and paid the bride price. Their attitude was that my UK marriage was over and they did not care about UK laws, their marriage is of the heart before Buddha and so I readily agreed on that basis. I now support my "wife". I intend to go back for three weeks just after Christmas (floods permitting) when we will continue to live together. 

I have around £4000 in the bank at present, with another £2500 owed me by the tax man, but have no work at present for over a week now. My company will employ me again as soon as they get more work starting - they have plenty of work line up but in the current climate clients are reluctant to press the "GO" button.

What problems will my financial status have on a Fiancee visa after the divorce is final, bearing in mind one refusal for general visitor to meet my kids, and also as her English is pathetic at best do I need to get her enrolled in an English language class pdq before I even try for a visa? I might add that as my eldest is already 17 it is our plan to move permanently to Thailand after a few years. My concern is that I might well have to start taking my deferred state pension after Christmas, although I do get the large lump sum the current 12 month deferrment has already earnt me and I can defer again once I get more work. Also there is the age gap that she is blithely unconcerned about - she says I meet her "spec", she loves me and that as far as she is concerned is it!

Thanks for your help in advance.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

cliveshep said:


> Firstly - hello to everyone - this is my first post and I would be very grateful for some informed advice as this is much on my mind.
> 
> I am nearly 66 (come Christmas Day this year) and I have been corresponding with a lovely Thai girl of 28 who is a Uni student. She comes from a traditional Buddhist family and we have been chatting since the end of July. I am currently in the middle of a divorce, Decree Nisi 7th Dec this year, Decree Absolute 20th Jan next year. A friend of mine some 5 years older met his wife on the same web site and recommended I try it when he heard of my marital woes. After trawling through many thousands of ladies this particular girl caught my heart and I wrote to her hardlly expecting a reply. To cut this short - she replied and since then we have spent many hours a day in google chat and Skype calls and felt we had fallen in love.
> Because I have 2 teenage kids I wanted to not only go there and meet her but bring her and her older sister (as chaperone) here to meet my kids. I went there and from the outset she displayed love for me and I felt the same for her. We now know thjat we are in love with each other for real - not just as internet "partners". UKBA refused both visitor visas saying that balance of probabilities was that they would not return to Thailand - a nonsense as she has to be back for her Graduation in December and her sister who was married (now abandoned by her Jap husband), owns her own house and has a child there. Reasons were no proof of income for the sister, nor proof of ownership of the town house, and for my love no proof offered that she was a genuine Uni student.
> ...


If you want to bring your fiancée over after January to get married, she will need a fiancée visa. Her refusal for a visitor visa will be an issue, as well as your financial state. In order to be successful, she will need to convince the UKBA that etiher the issues that led to her rejection have been addressed, or that the changed circumstances make them no longer relevant. To do so she will need to show evidence of growing and durable relationship, such as photos taken during your visit to Thailand, travel tickets and how you kept in touch during absences, such as letters, Skype logs and phone bills. Because of the age gap, it's important to show your relationship is genuine. Maybe a testimony from someone of standing in the community may help. I don't know how successful she will be, as you have only known each other for 4 months.

Your financial state will also be a cause for concern. While the published minimum amount necessary to support the both of you without resorting to public funds is at Income Support level of £105.95 a week, this is very low and in reality you need more. How much more depends on individual circumstances, but I usually advise to aim around the national average pay of £500 a week before tax or £26,000 a year if you have to pay for housing, such as rent or mortgage. It can be less if you have fully paid accommodation. It also depends on location - living in London costs a lot more than, say, in Bradford. The fact you aren't working at the moment will be picked up, and your savings are quite modest, so it looks likely that she will have difficulty convincing the visa officer about adequate maintenance. So I suggest you wait until you are back in work for at least three months with pay slips as evidence of income. If she can bring savings, that will help too but given the much lower cost of living over there, it may be difficult. Also her employment prospect following her marriage will be taken into account, so make sure you enclose her CV, qualification and any experience, and a sample job ad or two she can go for.

Her poor English will be another issue. She won't get her fiancée visa unless she meets the stated requirement for spoken English. It means enrolling on an English course in Thailand and making the grade. See UK Border Agency | English language requirement

On balance I must say it will be an uphill task to apply successfully for a fiancée visa, and if I were you, I'd wait at least a year before trying. It's too soon after her visa refusal, you haven't known each other for long and you have only met her once in Thailand over 8 days. Your case will be stronger if you can spend more time together to demonstrate this is no flash in the pan but a genuine, serious and deepening relationship. BTW, don't mention your allegged 'wedding' in Thailand as it won't be recognised here and only muddies the water.


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Joppa - many thanks for your reply. I confess that this brought on considerable depression at first but then I decided that I might as well fly out and spend a few weeks with her now, and do that again after the divorce is final in January and I have the papers, as if I'm not working I have nothing to lose at present. OK - it'll knock a hole in my finances but some flghts are at give-away prices at present so it won't be a very big hole.

I'll get another £10k or so coming in by the end of January and in any event we'll be able to demonstrate not just 8 days together but maybe another 6 weeks in total and that ought to show seriousness of relationship and intentions.

If after that UKBA still don't play ball then I might just stay there and marry her there and if necessary tun my back on the UK for good although that would be last resort as it would mean giving my kids to my ex and they do not want that. Come to that they don't want to live in Thailand either but they are supportive of my love for this girl whom they chat to on Skype.

Would getting married there under Thai Law make it any easier to gain an entry clearance for a spouse do you think? I'm looking at all angles here as this is the girl for me and both of us remain committed to that decision.

Once again - thank you for taking time out to answer me.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

cliveshep said:


> Joppa - many thanks for your reply. I confess that this brought on considerable depression at first but then I decided that I might as well fly out and spend a few weeks with her now, and do that again after the divorce is final in January and I have the papers, as if I'm not working I have nothing to lose at present. OK - it'll knock a hole in my finances but some flghts are at give-away prices at present so it won't be a very big hole.
> 
> I'll get another £10k or so coming in by the end of January and in any event we'll be able to demonstrate not just 8 days together but maybe another 6 weeks in total and that ought to show seriousness of relationship and intentions.
> 
> ...


Allow me to provide a completely different angle since you seem open to suggestion: Move to a different EU country. Belgium and the Netherlands allow people who have known each other for a year and have spent 40 calendar days together during that period to apply for a Cohabitation visa. The only thing that I could see being a problem is whether or not your divorce is final. There is no other catch.

Cohabiting - Services - Homepage - Foreign Affairs, Foreign Trade and Development Cooperation

You could also apply for a spousal visa whilst resident in any other EU country after being officially married since only the UK has a rule about language ability with regards to these types of visas. Shouldn't matter where you marry as though long as you get your marriage certificate certified at the UK embassy.

Probably useless information but I wish you best in sorting everything out!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

DonPomodoro said:


> Allow me to provide a completely different angle since you seem open to suggestion: Move to a different EU country. Belgium and the Netherlands allow people who have known each other for a year and have spent 40 calendar days together during that period to apply for a Cohabitation visa. The only thing that I could see being a problem is whether or not your divorce is final. There is no other catch.
> 
> Cohabiting - Services - Homepage - Foreign Affairs, Foreign Trade and Development Cooperation
> 
> ...


Or you can avail yourself of EU rules by marrying properly in Thailand (so that it will be recognised elsewhere), move temporarily to another EU country and live and work there for a period of time (6 months to a year is recommended), and then apply for your wife's EEA family permit to bring her to UK. Family permit is a lot easier to obtain, is free, and has no onerous language, maintenance or accommodation requirement. Then within 6 months she applies for her resident card on form EEA2.


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Hmmmm - thanks for that guys but I don't think I can leave the kids and toddle off to Belgium for 6 months. Also I do not speak the language and work would be a real problem.

My thinking is running along the lines of spending 3 weeks with her in January to February, armed with divorce papers, get an affirmation from the British Embassy of freedom to marry, and marry her under Thai law there.

I thought it might be easier to fight an appeal if the visa was refused as I couold then present my case to a Judge as a man wanting his wife to come to the UK - not just a girl-friend.

Meaning the argument would carry significantly more weight in a UK Court. 

My friend was in court over an appeal for his parents - both in their 70's. UKBA's reason for refusal was they would want to work! Silly sods! THey lost and he won but he did say to me that he was able to present all the papers etc to the Judge and make his case personally and the Judge was very sympathetic. The problem with UKBA seems to be that they are so buffered and protected so that you cannot actually TALK to anyone - it is all impersonal forms by internet and interviews where husbands are excluded, and it does not seem to be the case in Court that I would be excluded.

What do you think folks?


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

*Shameless "bump" - sorry*

My last question probably got missed so I've bumped it back if anyone can offer an informed opinion please? We are now planning to marry in February regardless as I am spending a month there - two days in January and the whole of February. I've already booked my ticket and we'll be staying in rented accommodation together. This was my last post: 

My thinking is running along the lines of spending 4 weeks with her in January to February, armed with divorce papers, get an affirmation from the British Embassy of freedom to marry, and marry her under Thai law there.

I thought it might be easier to fight an appeal if the visa was refused as I couold then present my case to a Judge as a man wanting his wife to come to the UK - not just a girl-friend.

Meaning the argument would carry significantly more weight in a UK Court.

My friend was in court over an appeal for his parents - both in their 70's. UKBA's reason for refusal was they would want to work! Silly sods! THey lost and he won but he did say to me that he was able to present all the papers etc to the Judge and make his case personally and the Judge was very sympathetic. The problem with UKBA seems to be that they are so buffered and protected so that you cannot actually TALK to anyone - it is all impersonal forms by internet and interviews where husbands are excluded, and it does not seem to be the case in Court that I would be excluded.

What do you think folks?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

cliveshep said:


> My last question probably got missed so I've bumped it back if anyone can offer an informed opinion please? We are now planning to marry in February regardless as I am spending a month there - two days in January and the whole of February. I've already booked my ticket and we'll be staying in rented accommodation together. This was my last post:
> 
> My thinking is running along the lines of spending 4 weeks with her in January to February, armed with divorce papers, get an affirmation from the British Embassy of freedom to marry, and marry her under Thai law there.
> 
> ...


I don't know about the prospect of bringing your Thai fiancée/wife to UK, as UKBA will take into account all available evidence. Being married, and the marriage is subsisting, will be a positive factor but not the overriding one. Living for a month is still considered a holiday and not residence. If you were to live there for a year as husband and wife, that would carry more weight. You still have to meet financial and housing requirements, and as I've said, your resources must be seen to be more than sufficient to keep the both of you without difficulty. The target to aim at is something around the national average salary of £26k a year, including savings and external support, though some people have been approved with less, depending on personal circumstances.

Should you visa application be rejected and you go for an appeal, you need to show that UKBA has made a mistake, hasn't followed proper procedure or appeal on humanitarian grounds. A couple have the right to live together, but not necessarily in UK. If you can live in Thailand with her, that will, in their view, satisfy the requirement, unless there are overwhelming reasons against, such as fear of persecution, risk to personal safety or lack of medical care that she needs. Your willingness to continue your married life in Thailand, or somewhere else, will be taken as an indication that you are serious about your relationship.


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## Q123 (Nov 10, 2011)

*beware*

You had your fun, now don't marry her. Don't get involved. It can only end badly. You 'meet her specs' because you are British and have money. She doesn't know how little you have yet. They have boyfriends you know! The boyfriend will benefit too when she marries you. Why do you think there is no proof that she is attending university? She isn't! Copy and paste this into google and read the result: A Thai court today jailed for life a Thai wife, her lover, and a professional hit man for the avaricious murder of her Canadian husband.


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Q123 - that is a very harsh reply indeed and sums up how people view Thai girls - just as "meat" to be picked up, used and discarded. It is a generalisation about as accurate as saying, well, for example, "all Americans are gun-toting nuts whose one pleasure in life is to shoot up a school full of kids". It is just wrong.

I meet her specs because that is what SHE wants, not a Thai man who in her opinion is unreliable. I submitted her visa application on her behalf - I did not submit proof because as sponsor I didn't think it relevant. However, we both regularly logged on to her Uni web site to check her final results - she is most defo a student and totally genuine.

I did NOT have my FUN although we tried I'll admit. She is STILL a virgin, and so tiny and with such a low pain threshold we actually visited the hospital to get help on that issue. I mention this because of your unjustified comment. I have seen the "evidence" in her close up - ok? No more on THAT subject!

As for finances - she is well aware of how little is left and about me not having a job. She wants me to live with her in Thailand - she does not WANT to come to the UK. All the evidence and consistency demonstrate true love. She has nothing to gain from marrying me - apart from her declared aim which is to be with a man she has fallen in love with. 

I love roses - but if I pulled off the petals to see what made them smell and look so nice I'd destroy the rose and have nothing but bits. Some things one just accepts with gratitude and our relationship is on of them. I'm sorry but in all respects on this girl you are totally wrong.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

I am always reluctant to get involved in this sort of thing, but you do have to face up to the risks you are taking.
I can tell you two stories from personal experience.
My friend who lived next door when we were growing up was a very smart, both streetwise and academically, lad. He had a good academic career doing work at universities all over the world.
He met and married an Asian woman, after a couple of years he wanted to move to the UK.
She was refused a visa as it was thought that she had married him in order to get to the UK. He, of course, never thought that for a moment.
They moved to Dublin instead and eventually she was given a visa and she came to the UK.
Some three years later, something like seven years after marrying, and on the very day that she got indefinate leave to remain, he came home to find a note saying she had left him.
Now, as I have been happily married to an Asian woman for eleven years I am not saying that your woman is just after what she can get. But the fact is that you can barely know her in the time you have had and you shouldn't be suprised if the border agency excercise more caution than you think necessary.
I wish you well, but worry for you.


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Tonight I told her I was out of work and had no money except a pension at basic rate coming in and asked her how she felt about it. Her response was that I should forget about her coming to the UK and that I should stay with her in Thailand and that she would find a job and look after me! She told me that she truly loved me and that was it as far as she was concerned.

Go figure??


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Well the advice you have had is that you ought to spend much more time together and that you need to improve your employment and earnings position.

So you should aim to get regular well paid work, visit her as often and for as long as you can. Then have her apply in a year or two when your situation is better.

Your other option to for you to move there. I am not sure what visa you would be able to get. But if you want to bring her back to the UK you will eventually have to demonstrate that you have adequate finances. If she has been keeping you that will be difficult.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Well the advice you have had is that you ought to spend much more time together and that you need to improve your employment and earnings position.
> 
> So you should aim to get regular well paid work, visit her as often and for as long as you can. Then have her apply in a year or two when your situation is better.
> 
> Your other option to for you to move there. I am not sure what visa you would be able to get. But if you want to bring her back to the UK you will eventually have to demonstrate that you have adequate finances. If she has been keeping you that will be difficult.


Just to add that if and when you wish to bring your wife to live (settle) in UK, the UKBA will have sets of criteria - some publicly announced on its website, others more circumstantial which will lend their support - to show your marriage is genuine and is subsisting. The government intends to revise the rules and criteria for family migration soon and it's expected to be more open but also tougher to sponsor a non-EU family member to move to UK, such as minimum income requirement for sponsor and ban on external sponsorship such as from relatives. Keep an eye on news, as the new rules etc are set to be unveiled towards the end of year or shortly after.


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## cliveshep (Nov 3, 2011)

Well, most of what I read here was rather discouraging and I confess to some tears for both of us and considerable depression over the last couple of days.

So this morning I called an Immigration Lawyer company and set out all the circumstances and asked them for advice.

For benefit of others as well they said that I need some more funds coming in, but that if I am not out of work too long it will not show up too badly on my annual accounts. They said that given our communication record, and that we had met and would meet again and that the content of our messages demonstrated true love between us basically it was ONLY the financial issues that could affect the application for a Fiancée visa. If I got back to work the problems would then go away. 

I found that more encouraging as they also explained that the English Speaking and listening test was very basic indeed and should not present any problems. What was worrying me was all the unknowns in this and they certainly set my mind at rest on that score as they know the business thoroughly.

I think it seems best though that we marry here - probably a lot cheaper as well in the end, and nothing to be gained by marrying there except that if it all goes wrong we are then legally married but unable to do anything about it and that would tie her down unfairly and destroy her future. I of course would not have a future. They also said that the age gap is irrelevant and that nothing in UK law legislates for a minimum or indeed a maximum age gap and that UKBA had no rights in law to refuse on that basis. Their basis for determination had to be genuine love and desire to be together and my financial means to support her alone. She would of course require a TB test. 

So thank you all for your help and advice, what I have learnt is that it is a difficult and expensive process and can be a minefield and it is probably best to let a professional handle it. I also learnt that appeals are confirmed as held in this country before a Judge and that I can then be present to argue my case, which may also involve Human Rights Law. I would love to poke UKBA in the eye - they are an evil lot in circumstances such as mine, causing huge expense and considerable grief and misery.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

cliveshep said:


> So this morning I called an Immigration Lawyer company and set out all the circumstances and asked them for advice.
> 
> They also said that the age gap is irrelevant and that nothing in UK law legislates for a minimum or indeed a maximum age gap and that UKBA had no rights in law to refuse on that basis. Their basis for determination had to be genuine love and desire to be together and my financial means to support her alone.


It may not be written into the rules but an obvious age gap will be picked up and will be a factor in determining whether your relationship is genuine and sustaining. As they say, they take all factors as presented to them into consideration. UKBA may have no legal basis for rejecting your application on the age gap alone, but it stands to reason that an unconventional relationshop - for want of a better word - will require a higher proof of evidence. As I have said, the government is revising rules and criteria for family migration, among other things to clarify what constitutes a genuine marriage/relationship, so we shall have to wait and see.

SKY is running some repeats of its excellent series - 'UK Border Force' on Sky One, which gives some revealing details about how UKBA comes to a decision on borderline cases. Often a case is decided on a balance of probabilities, though there must be a reason under immigration law for refusal, which must be in writing and given to the applicant/passenger. Well worth watching if you have SKY or cable.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Remember also that immigration lawyers are in business to get people to use their services for a fee - often very high - and have vested interest in being on your side, as it were. 

I think the best source of impartial legal advice is through Citizen's Advice or other non-commercial channels.


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## Laislica (Nov 22, 2012)

*God bless you Sir*

I just joined the Forum and this is my first post.
I can totally relate to your story and need for help.
I too have met the love of my life here although my circumstances are a little different from yours.
We spent from Feb to July in the Kingdom together, 5 months.
I needed to be in Europe, 4 months apart, until my recent return to Thailand and I shall stay until about May or June 2013.
I saw that you were shocked by the post Beware but things can be very different here and I'm sure that the poster meant well.
In the book recommendations on this site they mention Thailand Fever and I was lent a copy on my initial arrival to Thailand. I read it three times and can highly recommend it to you.
There are many traps for foreigners in Thailand, our cultures are as different as it is possible to be and we need to understand and accept Thai culture. Without the knowledge from that book I am sure I would have failed here.... 
Another book is downloadable for free, Private Dancer by Stephen Leather, it may explain what the Beware post was all about.
I wish you luck and hope that you are able to post some successful news.


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## Laislica (Nov 22, 2012)

Joppa said:


> Or you can avail yourself of EU rules by marrying properly in Thailand (so that it will be recognised elsewhere), move temporarily to another EU country and live and work there for a period of time (6 months to a year is recommended), and then apply for your wife's EEA family permit to bring her to UK. Family permit is a lot easier to obtain, is free, and has no onerous language, maintenance or accommodation requirement. Then within 6 months she applies for her resident card on form EEA2.


Now this sounds like it could help me, please tell me more.
(or should I start another thread?)
I am a Brit living in Spain since 2000, have property there.
If I marry formally in Thailand and register with the Brit Embassy, can my new wife travel to Spain for up to six months with me?
Our intention is to spend more or less half the year in Spain and half in Thailand.


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## Laislica (Nov 22, 2012)

cliveshep said:


> Tonight I told her I was out of work and had no money except a pension at basic rate coming in and asked her how she felt about it. Her response was that I should forget about her coming to the UK and that I should stay with her in Thailand and that she would find a job and look after me! She told me that she truly loved me and that was it as far as she was concerned.
> 
> Go figure??


 Note that as soon as the State Pension people find out that you are living full time in Thailand, they will freeze your pension. 
Don't you just love them?


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