# Expat in Munich or Hamburg help



## amedeus

Hi,

I'm Italian, 32 y.o, currently living and working in Sweden, where my contract is going to end in few months. After 2 years here, I'm looking for another place where to move, and I'm thinking about Munich or Hamburg.
I've already worked in Berlin for 1 year and I didn't like so much, I experienced some problems with racism and than the berliner that I met (they didn't like to call themselves Germans) were really really closed. 
In addition I'm 32 and Berlin is a crazy city, more suitable for young and party people 

What is important to me is to find a city where people are open (of course I will study the language) not racist as in Berlin (sorry but it was true) and where I can also meet international people, because when you're a foreigner you socialize, clearly, more with them.

I'm a bit concerned that in Munich I couldn't not find international people (not many as in Berlin for example). I don't know about Hamburg, maybe it's the same.

I would like to have some suggestions about these 2 cities (or other cities) where I could move to work. I'm an engineer.

Thanks!


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## Tellus

Hi,
sorry to read about your experience with racism in Berlin. But never heard that other europeans had problems.
I know about problems in Berlin and elsewere but often it is against people from Balkan or colored people. That`s not OK, but unluckily you will find dumb-asses in any region of the world. ( the mother of dullness is pregnant at any time )
You can not run away..in other cities it`s the same. And don`t forget world is a ball, one day you`re back at your starting point.
We lived in Bavaria for decades, as a Berliner you are "Preiss", Prussian - archenemy.
Against "Preissn" Bavarians are totally closed. But as an Italian you might have a good time in Munich, it `s the most northern town of Italy. But more expensive than Venezia, even Hamburg.
Part of my family are Berliner ( itś a seperate race  ) for hundreds of years, living in multikulti areas like Wedding, Kreuzberg, Schöneberg but were never attact by Nazis or had conflicts with turkish citizens and never will attac others.

My suggestion: study german language to avoid misunderstandings, be cool, don`t take some comments to serious. In Germany racism is not more common than in other countries, people are fighting it..


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## Nononymous

I'm not sure you're going to find Hamburg or Munich more open, warm and welcoming than Berlin. More expensive, certainly.


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## amedeus

Tellus said:


> Hi,
> sorry to read about your experience with racism in Berlin. But never heard that other europeans had problems.
> I know about problems in Berlin and elsewere but often it is against people from Balkan or colored people. That`s not OK, but unluckily you will find dumb-asses in any region of the world. ( the mother of dullness is pregnant at any time )
> You can not run away..in other cities it`s the same. And don`t forget world is a ball, one day you`re back at your starting point.
> We lived in Bavaria for decades, as a Berliner you are "Preiss", Prussian - archenemy.
> Against "Preissn" Bavarians are totally closed. But as an Italian you might have a good time in Munich, it `s the most northern town of Italy. But more expensive than Venezia, even Hamburg.
> Part of my family are Berliner ( itś a seperate race  ) for hundreds of years, living in multikulti areas like Wedding, Kreuzberg, Schöneberg but were never attact by Nazis or had conflicts with turkish citizens and never will attac others.
> 
> My suggestion: study german language to avoid misunderstandings, be cool, don`t take some comments to serious. In Germany racism is not more common than in other countries, people are fighting it..


So, your advice seems to give another try to Berlin, right?

Thanks


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## Nononymous

I'm not giving any advice really, just saying that if you didn't have an easy time settling in Berlin - which is pretty expat-friendly, all things considered - I don't think it's necessarily going to be better in Hamburg or Munich.


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## ALKB

Being polite is not exactly part of our very special, rough Berlin charm.

I am very sorry that your experience in Berlin was not a pleasant one.

I am surprised that you as an Italian encountered racism, though. Maybe you lived in the wrong part of town? My husband is part of a visible minority and had near to no German language skills when we moved to Germany and he never had any trouble of the racist sort. 

I like Hamburg. But then I like Berlin.

Munich is really expensive but it has a lot of good points, including good transport links to Italy.


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## Nononymous

Once you get far enough along with the language and sort of get it into, Berlin rudeness is pretty delightful. I love listening to a bus driver tear into someone. And Berlinerisch is just awesome.


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## amedeus

I lived in Kreuzberg. But I had problems only with people from Berlin, when they realized that my German was not good enough to have a long conversation, they started to be very rude, speaking German really fast and telling me to go back home.

But what about International people in Munich and Hamburg?
And what about the relations between local germans with foreigners in these 2 cities? I'm a "normal" Italian, this means that I'm not like the stereotypical Italian in movies (loud and so on) that sometimes I know could be a little annoying  

Do you think Berlin could be a good idea also if I'm 32 and I want to build a future and a family? I thought was more a city for young and party people, that's why I was thinking about Munich or Hamburg.

Thanks for help.


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## Nononymous

I wouldn't call that racism, I'd just call that rude and tired of dealing with people not speaking German.

I've only ever lived in Berlin so can't really speak to the other cities, but I don't imagine it's hugely different. You're going to find people for whom the novelty of dealing with charming foreigners who don't speak German has long ago worn off.

The perception that Berlin is only for partying in your 20s is a bit off - it's a city of over 3 million, many of whom live their whole lives there, which includes getting old and boring. I know many people in their 40s and 50s who happily live in Kreuzberg. (I've been one of them.)


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## Tellus

Nononymous said:


> I wouldn't call that racism, I'd just call that rude and tired of dealing with people not speaking German.
> 
> I've only ever lived in Berlin so can't really speak to the other cities, but I don't imagine it's hugely different. You're going to find people for whom the novelty of dealing with charming foreigners who don't speak German has long ago worn off.
> 
> The perception that Berlin is only for partying in your 20s is a bit off - it's a city of over 3 million, many of whom live their whole lives there, which includes getting old and boring. I know many people in their 40s and 50s who happily live in Kreuzberg. (I've been one of them.)


From my sight I would say that these three cities are different in its own kind: 
Berlin is a meltingpot of villages and intenational people, a hotspot in many ways.
Munich is a global village with airport, bit quaint. Bavarians are bit special.
Hamburg, busy, international, rich and formal, Hanse-City.

After 1989, fall of the Wall, Berlin has changed massiv. The ruins of former East-Berlin are history, now Prenzlauer Berg, Mitte, Pankow.. are IN-quarter, expensive.
People from other regions of Germany moved in and are talking in different idioms like schwäbisch or bayrisch..hard to understand for the Berliner - they are angry about and call it Schwabeninvasion. It 's rude but not racism.
The caravan moves on to Neukölln, Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain...not to forget the "Speckgürtel" (ham belt), suburbs around Berlin along the S-Bahn. Very suitable to live in.

btw: you are 32..? At the that age I lived in Munich and we had often party with friends, relations and collegues. Now I`m 60plus, but fun is an important point in my life. Have fun now, future wil come to early...


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## amedeus

Nononymous said:


> I wouldn't call that racism, I'd just call that rude and tired of dealing with people not speaking German.


No, ofc not, I will call that rude too! With racism I meant being attacked (well pushed and slapped mostly) by neo nazi at Warschauer Straße at night because they asked me something in German and I didn't understand. Then they realized I was a foreigner and they got pissed (I think). But it can happens everywhere, also in Rome or anywhere else. So I'm not concerned about that.




Tellus said:


> btw: you are 32..? At the that age I lived in Munich and we had often party with friends, relations and collegues. Now I`m 60plus, but fun is an important point in my life. Have fun now, future wil come to early...


Well, I start to feel that I want to build something...I think I turned recently in a family person :lol:

Well considering that I'm looking for jobs and internationals, maybe I should choose from Hamburg or Berlin, based on your answer. I will prebably exclude Munich if it is the less international among the three.


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## Nononymous

amedeus said:


> No, ofc not, I will call that rude too! With racism I meant being attacked (well pushed and slapped mostly) by neo nazi at Warschauer Straße at night because they asked me something in German and I didn't understand. Then they realized I was a foreigner and they got pissed (I think). But it can happens everywhere, also in Rome or anywhere else. So I'm not concerned about that.


I think that counts as random bad luck. 



> Well, I start to feel that I want to build something...I think I turned recently in a family person :lol:
> 
> Well considering that I'm looking for jobs and internationals, maybe I should choose from Hamburg or Berlin, based on your answer. I will prebably exclude Munich if it is the less international among the three.


I wouldn't restrict yourself to any particular city. Hamburg and Munich are both expensive and very difficult to find apartments. Berlin you know already. You might find the best compromise in a smaller city. Unless there are so many potential job offers that you need to limit the search.


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## amedeus

Nononymous said:


> You might find the best compromise in a smaller city. Unless there are so many potential job offers that you need to limit the search.


Do you have some suggestions? Smaller but still international I mean.

Thanks.


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## Nononymous

amedeus said:


> Do you have some suggestions? Smaller but still international I mean.
> 
> Thanks.


Not really. It depends what you mean by "international" - you'll find English speakers wherever you go (especially in IT) but if you're going to live in Germany, you'll want to become fluent as quickly as possible.


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## amedeus

I mean from all over the world, or the Europe.

I can find a job without german language in the IT, mostly are jobs in coding and stuff like that, and they don't need a german speaker, only anEnglish speaker.
But of course I'm gonna study the language.


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## Nononymous

No idea, sorry. I imagine that smaller cities with universities and high tech industries would be more cosmopolitan than, say, economically depressed rural areas in the former East Germany.


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## ALKB

amedeus said:


> I mean from all over the world, or the Europe.
> 
> I can find a job without german language in the IT, mostly are jobs in coding and stuff like that, and they don't need a german speaker, only anEnglish speaker.
> But of course I'm gonna study the language.


Possibly Darmstadt?

Or maybe Freiburg im Breisgau or Aachen?

Not sure. 

This is something very subjective. I'd recommend to have a look at where the jobs are, then look at a map and maybe spend a week in Germany travelling to two or three places and soaking up the atmosphere?


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## crunchywalrus

amedeus said:


> No, ofc not, I will call that rude too! With racism I meant being attacked (well pushed and slapped mostly) by neo nazi at Warschauer Straße at night because they asked me something in German and I didn't understand. Then they realized I was a foreigner and they got pissed (I think). But it can happens everywhere, also in Rome or anywhere else. So I'm not concerned about that.


I am a long time expat, but finally got around to registering.

After living in Munich for many years "temporarily" for work, I have never experienced this. I believe it is an exception, not the standard, and don't think it should put you off any location.


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