# trumpety dump.. dumty dooo



## QOFE (Apr 28, 2013)

Is everybody too gob-smacked? I came on here expecting a lively debate.

How could this happen??? Scary times ahead, indeed...

:canada:


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Fantastic news isn't it. First leicester win the league, then the Brexit poll goes the right way, and now Trump has won. Historic and brilliant.


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## londonmandan (Jul 23, 2013)

I can't wait, the next 4 years are going to be so amazing.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

londonmandan said:


> I can't wait, the next 4 years are going to be so amazing.


I'm not sure about amazing. Certainly interesting.


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## Byja (Mar 3, 2013)

There was a big billboard in TECOM advertising certain developer's project with Trump name, however, it was replaced with one not mentioning him once he announced his campaign.
Now that he won, I wonder how long will it take them to put the old one back again.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Byja said:


> There was a big billboard in TECOM advertising certain developer's project with Trump name, however, it was replaced with one not mentioning him once he announced his campaign.
> Now that he won, I wonder how long will it take them to put the old one back again.


A long time - the much vaunted Trump Towers on the Palm never came about and he hasnt got many fans outside one half of the USA.


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

Not sure many of even them are fans. Many took, what they considered to be, the least worst option.

There are no winners in this, apart from comedy writers... and bunker salesmen.

We are all about to experience "interesting times". 
When did he say he was going to start bombing Isilistan?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I think that everyone should settle down, accept the decision, quit the tantrums and look to the future - none of us know, but we can be part of making it good!

Jo xxx


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Not sure whether theMods will like this so apologies Mods if you have to remove it.

It made me laugh as so may of my wifes friends are Americans - well half are from 'murica and the rest from America and I really hope both halves never actually meet.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

twowheelsgood said:


> Not sure whether theMods will like this so apologies Mods if you have to remove it.
> 
> It made me laugh as so may of my wifes friends are Americans - well half are from 'murica and the rest from America and I really hope both halves never actually meet.


I'm sure most will see the funny side, but if not - feel free to "report" the post

Jo xxx


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

jojo said:


> I think that everyone should settle down, accept the decision, quit the tantrums and look to the future - none of us know, but we can be part of making it good!
> 
> Jo xxx


And that goes for brexit too, isn't it amazing that it's the so called non violent left that are rioting because things didn't go their way? And they talk about the likes of UKIP the NF and Britain First.

Grow up, accept the will of the people, and get on with your life, the world may well be a much better place in 4 years time.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The Rascal said:


> And that goes for brexit too, isn't it amazing that it's the so called non violent left that are rioting because things didn't go their way? And they talk about the likes of UKIP the NF and Britain First.
> 
> Grow up, accept the will of the people, and get on with your life, the world may well be a much better place in 4 years time.



Exactly - who knows??! Someone pointed out to me - and it makes sense, that those who are refusing to accept that they lost these elections/referendums are those who, nowadays dont like to allow competition in schools and think its bad for children to lose.....

Jo xxx


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The Rascal said:


> And that goes for brexit too, isn't it amazing that it's the so called non violent left that are rioting because things didn't go their way? And they talk about the likes of UKIP the NF and Britain First.
> 
> Grow up, accept the will of the people, and get on with your life, the world may well be a much better place in 4 years time.


The voice of division. Politics reduced to a sports team, pick a side and shout for it the loudest.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

And anyway, it was the left that lost. Watch this video, made by a liberal, that i think explains exactly why the left lost.






Quick warning, it uses some "Adult" words, so if you can't take the odd cuss, don't listen - and that will probably mean you're offended and a liberal leftie anyway.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The Rascal said:


> And anyway, it was the *left *that lost. Watch this video, made by a *liberal*, that i think explains exactly why the *left *lost.


Go your team, you won the game. Hurray :first:


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Hilarious that Sturgeon said that she was disappointed with the US election result but had to respect the will of the people don't you think?

The irony.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The Rascal said:


> Hilarious that Sturgeon said that she was disappointed with the US election result but had to respect the will of the people don't you think?


No, politics should be the ever evolving process of thoughts, ideas and implementation of those ideas. I can't speak for Nicola Sturgeon 100% but she's continuing to follow the core tenet of her party, which is Scottish independence. 

The fact that 44% of the vote referendum voted Yes and the overwhelming majority of Scottish constituencies the SNP hold, I guess is a voice that makes her think this is something still worth pursuing.

As a side, almost all world leaders offered up a fairly innocuous platitude when the presidential result was announced.


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

jojo said:


> I think that everyone should settle down, accept the decision, quit the tantrums and look to the future - none of us know, but we can be part of making it good!
> 
> Jo xxx


Except that is a quintessential example of White Privilege. How do you tell all the Mexican, Black and Muslim kids who woke up the next day to 'quit their tantrums' and 'look to the future' when reports of the Alt right and their neo-nazi buddies crawling out of the woodwork are pouring in from everywhere.



He ran a campaign on bigotry and prejudice and the elephant in the room is that it was angry White people left behind by globalization who think they are entitled to anything at the expense of tolerance and equality. Screw them and I am fine with the Left becoming more militant in response.


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

Post-election spate of hate crimes worse than post-9/11, experts say


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)




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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Razr said:


> Except that is a quintessential example of White Privilege. How do you tell all the Mexican, Black and Muslim kids who woke up the next day to 'quit their tantrums' and 'look to the future' when reports of the Alt right and their neo-nazi buddies crawling out of the woodwork are pouring in from everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> He ran a campaign on bigotry and prejudice and the elephant in the room is that it was angry White people left behind by globalization who think they are entitled to anything at the expense of tolerance and equality. Screw them and I am fine with the Left becoming more militant in response.


88% of blacks voted for Killery, as did 76% of hispanics.

They were voting for a woman who (as part of the leftie liberalism) dictates that people should be pigeonholed as "African Americans", "Gays", "LBGT", I could go on. 

Whereas the rest of us don't see a black, a hispanic, a gay person, we see a person.

But hey, it's us that are the racists isn't it.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Razr said:


> Post-election spate of hate crimes worse than post-9/11, experts say


Experts like those same experts that talked about a total crash with Brexit, an immediate slump in house prices, more unemployment - none of which has happened.

Open your eyes, can't you see the motivation of the leftie liberals here? They want mass immigration from anywhere because those immigrants are more likely to vote for them as they will get benefit payments.

To hell with the people who have lived in a country for generations, they are treated like dog dirt on their (made in a commune in india/senegal) shoes.

You wonder why, with the entire mainstream media against them, that trump won?

Watch AND LISTEN to the video i posted above.

It is YOU lefties that are the problem, you are certainly NOT the solution.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I think we should simply be grateful for our democracy and now concentrate on the possible insurgence of ISIS - who I'm sure would be only too happy to take away said democracy and replace it with their own rules. 

Jo xxx


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

The Rascal said:


> 88% of blacks voted for Killery, as did 76% of hispanics.
> 
> 
> But hey, it's us that are the racists isn't it.


Well yes, the fact that White people overwhelmingly voted for a person who wanted Muslims (and only Muslims) to carry identification cards and people of other colors creed and religion overwhelmingly REJECTED and are now crying because people overwhelmingly label them as Prejudiced is laughable. Like I said mate you drew the line in the sand perfectly when you didn't add caveats to statements like Mexicans are rapists and ignored the fact that White Males in colleges are the biggest rapists the world has ever seen. YOU were quiet when a maniac won an election calling people the OTHER so don't be surprised everyone's telling you you smell like ****. You went to sleep with the DOGS not us.



The Rascal said:


> Experts like those same experts that talked about a total crash with Brexit, an immediate slump in house prices, more unemployment - none of which has happened.
> 
> mmigrants are more likely to vote for them as they will get benefit payments.


Err, you mean the Great UK which had zero leadership as soon as they voted to exit, where the people who campaigned for it where no where to be seen when the pound slid and has kept sliding only to be propped up now with a fascist in charge? The UK is still in the process of leaving, when they completely start losing trade deals signed as part of the EU and massive economies like China and India start realizing there is not much benefit to dealing with the UK (No manufacturing or service edge) and things really start to happen come back and then we'll talk.
Theresa May going hat in hand to India to sign deals only to be told to ****** off while they sign deal after deal with countries ranging from Israel to Japan was a clear indication of how fast the world is changing and regressive nationalists like yourself are going to be your own worst enemy.

On benefits? Look at the data, it was the Whites on benefits from Ohio to Michigan that turned this election. 

Yep, race really did Trump economics: A data dive on his supporters reveals deep racial animosity - Salon.com


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

jojo said:


> I think we should simply be grateful for our democracy and now concentrate on the possible insurgence of ISIS - who I'm sure would be only too happy to take away said democracy and replace it with their own rules.
> 
> Jo xxx


Absolutely, we should be glad of democracy and ISIS is a serious problem.

But the lack of empathy is alarming. Black people seeing '******s' written on their institutions, Mexicans being told to go back home and Muslims getting harassed everywhere.

Day 1 in Trumps America gentlemen.

https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

No in times like these there is nothing more apt than Che's observation 'Western Civilization hides behind a showy facade a picture of Jackals and Hyenas'.


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

The Rascal said:


> Experts like those same experts that talked about
> 
> .


By the way, you might want to real, those attacks are already documented not a prediction so your extrapolation made no sense.

I'm done but since the right despises 'Political Correctness' lets call this for what it is. The last stand by the ANGRY WHITE MAN but I'm sorry to tell you, you can rant, you can rave, you can discriminate, call Muslims terrorists and Mexicans rapists but just like the Left won the culture wars, nothing NOTHING can stop the juggernaut of globalization, integration and the rise of an equal multi-polar world.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Razr said:


> By the way, you might want to real, those attacks are already documented not a prediction so your extrapolation made no sense.
> 
> I'm done but since the right despises 'Political Correctness' lets call this for what it is. The last stand by the ANGRY WHITE MAN but I'm sorry to tell you, you can rant, you can rave, you can discriminate, call Muslims terrorists and Mexicans rapists but just like the Left won the culture wars, nothing NOTHING can stop the juggernaut of globalization, integration and the rise of an equal multi-polar world.


I think you seem to be talking to yourself!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Razr said:


> Absolutely, we should be glad of democracy and ISIS is a serious problem.
> 
> But the lack of empathy is alarming. Black people seeing '******s' written on their institutions, Mexicans being told to go back home and Muslims getting harassed everywhere.
> 
> ...


Wait and see. Dont look for problems, look for how you can make your country strong. Lets be honest, ISIS wouldnt bother with the name calling!

Jo xxx


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

jojo said:


> Wait and see. Dont look for problems,
> 
> Jo xxx


Wow!

Are you for real? I just posted documented evidence of racial abuse that minorities have had to deal with since the election and your response is 'Don't look for problems'? Malcolm X's disdain for the 'White liberal' has never been more clear.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The Rascal said:


> Open your eyes, can't you see the motivation of the leftie liberals here? They want mass immigration from anywhere because those immigrants are more likely to vote for them as they will get benefit payments.


These are lines the BNP used to members repeated almost verbatim. Subsequent posts suggest quite a bit of internal anger, the type attracted to such a group.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Mr Rossi said:


> These are lines the BNP used to members repeated almost verbatim. Subsequent posts suggest quite a bit of internal anger, the type attracted to such a group.


Mr. Rossi, it is a FACT that this is the case, in both the UK and USA (I've not bothered about looking at other countries).

Immigrants are more likely to vote left liberal rather than right natinalist.

Why can't you accept that?


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> I think you ought to calm down (Razr)
> 
> Other people hold different opinions - because they differ from your doesnt make you right. There are some pretty bold statements in your rant, none of which you have presented any evidence to justify so it comes across as somewhat 'ranty'.
> 
> For example, when acertain section of the Uk population has multiple prosecutions for grooming young girls, repeatedly, over many years it does suggest that there is a cultural or endemic problem in that community. It doesnt mean that everyone is like that, but if you're looking to root out the problem, then there's an obvious place to start - like it or not.



Oh absolutely, these are important nuanced conversations that need to be had.

However, it is impossible to have them in the kind of environment the Right (and the Left) have currently fostered. The Right use it as fodder for xenophobia, racism , the Left are quick to throw the term racist and unfortunately everyone's just looking out for themselves. Even moderators over here say 'don't look for problems' when documented evidence of racial crimes by Whites on minorities is through the roof in the USA post Donald. It's a mess.

However, there is documented evidence of Date rape in the USA being through the roof and convictions as well as reported crimes being dismal. That is overwhelmingly White on White. Where is the rhetoric by Drumf calling them rapists? It isn't there, it isn't so easy to demonize people who look like you is it?


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Razr said:


> Oh absolutely, these are important nuanced conversations that need to be had.
> 
> However, it is impossible to have them in the kind of environment the Right (and the Left) have currently fostered. The Right use it as fodder for xenophobia, racism , the Left are quick to throw the term racist and unfortunately everyone's just looking out for themselves. Even moderators over here say 'don't look for problems' when documented evidence of racial crimes by Whites on minorities is through the roof in the USA post Donald. It's a mess.
> 
> However, there is documented evidence of Date rape in the USA being through the roof and convictions as well as reported crimes being dismal. That is overwhelmingly White on White. Where is the rhetoric by Drumf calling them rapists? It isn't there, it isn't so easy to demonize people who look like you is it?


And Black on Black violence and deaths is the number one gun crime in the USA. But hey, #blacklivesmatter - and the Democrats gave a million dollars to that cause too. #buyingvotes


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

twowheelsgood said:


> I think you ought to calm down (Razr)
> 
> Other people hold different opinions - because they differ from your doesnt make you right. There are some pretty bold statements in your rant, none of which you have presented any evidence to justify so it comes across as somewhat 'ranty'.
> 
> For example, when acertain section of the Uk population has multiple prosecutions for grooming young girls, repeatedly, over many years it does suggest that there is a cultural or endemic problem in that community. It doesnt mean that everyone is like that, but if you're looking to root out the problem, then there's an obvious place to start - like it or not.


Not often you and I agree with each other eh?


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The Rascal said:


> Mr. Rossi, it is a FACT that this is the case, in both the UK and USA (I've not bothered about looking at other countries).
> Why can't you accept that?


Well I hadn't before but now you've typed that out in capitals, that's me convinced.

Who's got the market covered with the "legal fees" begging emails these days? Where do I sign up?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've had a bit of a tidy up! Now please be informative and pleasant to one another - using insults suggests a lack of answers and conveys nastiness and spitefulness. 

We have to look forward, we have to accept the democracy of the votes - or, while we're squabbling and protesting, ISIS might well "sneak in the back door" and we can then forget our democracy, fairness, liberalism...... We're all on the same side - regardless of gender, gender preferences, colour, lifestyle.....

Jo xxx


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Razr said:


> However, there is documented evidence of Date rape in the USA being through the roof


Okay, so where is this evidence ? You then tell us that the number of



Razr said:


> reported crimes being dismal.


So which is it - you can't claim that things are happening without reporting them can you ?



Razr said:


> and convictions as well...


No conviction, no crime. Its he said, she said and it appears that you believe an accusation should be treated as a conviction. If a jury finds against the claimant, there is no evidence to support the claim, so to all intents, it didnt happen and you have ZERO evidence that it did.



Razr said:


> That is overwhelmingly White on White.


Again, you make these bold statements but present zero evidence - do you have any available or is it just a belief ?

You seem to have changed topics somewhat to rant on another separate subject, again with a complete lack of data. Thats what happens when you watch Fox and Breitbart.



Razr said:


> when documented evidence of racial crimes by Whites on minorities is through the roof in the USA post Donald


Again, with the hyperbole. Through the roof ? How about increased from a very small amount to a small amount. As others have said, its irrelevant and insignificant compared with the number of deaths within certain communities which are strangely ignored by you.

........and chill. You dont get to choose who others vote for and there are too many today who have never actually experienced losing and not getting what they want. Generation Wuss as some call them.


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## Byja (Mar 3, 2013)

Razr said:


> Wow!
> 
> Are you for real? I just posted documented evidence of racial abuse that minorities have had to deal with since the election


How 'bout before the elections? Is this a one-way street?


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

twowheelsgood said:


> Okay, so where is this evidence ? You then


Ask and thou shall receive










https://www.rainn.org/news/97-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment-rainn-analysis-shows

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/campus-sexual-violence

and finally 










Won't hear about this in the media will you? It's all dem blacks and muslims. I am happy to have a conversation about this but it is seriously off topic.


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

The Rascal said:


> Immigrants are more likely to vote left liberal rather than right natinalist.


Immigrants can't vote, the can vote after they become citizens upon which they cease to be immigrants.

Or does it not count because they find White nationalists distasteful?




jojo said:


> We're all on the same side - regardless of gender, gender preferences, colour, lifestyle.....
> 
> Jo xxx


Except we clearly are not. White folks made a man president elect who has no qualms about placing a self-declared White nationalist as his chief advisor.


Do you remember the incident when a White Supremacist firebombed a Black Charleston church a while back? This is what those charmers had to say about it

Hoist It High And Proud: The Confederate Flag Proclaims A Glorious Heritage - Breitbart


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Razr said:


> Ask and thou shall receive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,
I think you need to be a bit careful quoting all these statistics.
27% of the perpetrators of sexual crimes are black (57% are white).
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence
However - only 12.6% of the population are black.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States
Therefore - statistically, twice as many blacks commit sexual crimes than whites - as a percentage of the total population.

Remember the old saying - lies, damn lies and statistics!
Cheers
Steve


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Remember the old saying - lies, damn lies and statistics!
> ...




I agree, it was still a statement to the absolute fact that White people are the biggest perpetrators of rape in the USA.

Now we can use the stats as a starting point and delve into it, if Black people are 2x as likely to commit rape, does it include rape in Jails and if it does is it because Black-Americans are over-represented in American prisons. If yes, why are African-Americans more than 4x times likely to receive a conviction compared to Whites who commit the same crime. 

More importantly all other countries have by and large move on from the race issues still plaguing the USA. People in Britain, Australia etc do not act like this. Why is the USA still stuck in the stone age?

Its a different discussion but anyway, the Americans have left an extremely distasteful taste in everyones mouth.


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## Razr (Nov 13, 2016)

Anyway, in times like these when a White nationalist who believes in Aryan supremacy has been appointed as the right hand man of Trump it is good to know that some people will still stand up for what's right.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Razr said:


> Its a different discussion but anyway, the Americans have left an extremely distasteful taste in everyones mouth.



Not in mine, go Trump GO! get rid of all the illegals who have committed a crime, put your country before all else - just like they do in the GCC.....


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## Horus_88 (Mar 11, 2014)

I think the media is over-reacting.....


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Stevesolar said:


> Hi,
> I think you need to be a bit careful quoting all these statistics.


Indeed.

The old lies trolled out by the 'rape statistics lobby' assume that all claims are genuine - the fact is that successful prosecutions are vey small because there is NO EVIDENCE and the lie that 994 rapes out of 1000 'get away with it' is more like there are only 6 people where evidence exists and are convicted and the rest are innocent. 

They are NOT perpetrators.

They didnt 'get away with it' - they didnt do it, as a court of law has confirmed.

They do not 'walk free as they are never detained.

It seem like the quoter has no idea how the Law works and is more interested in perpetrating a myth. For someone who thinks Trump will be bad for America, its a joke from someone who thinks people are guilty unless proven innocent - because that what the rape stats lobby promote.

Haters gotta hate when they lose. Its all they can cope with.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Fake Hate Crimes.

Gotta love the liberals.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

Razr said:


> Anyway, in times like these when a White nationalist who believes in Aryan supremacy has been appointed as the right hand man of Trump it is good to know that some people will still stand up for what's right.


Maybe that is what is exciting some of those cheering for "change"


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

The Rascal said:


> Fake Hate Crimes.
> 
> Gotta love the liberals.


Rascal and Two wheels new bromance... :faint:

Trump brought a small bit of harmony to one small corner of the world at least.


Whale oil beef hooked indeed!


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

More on topic...

Interesting times are ahead, that is for sure. Whether you love him or loathe him (he seems to be that polarising, there seems to be very little middle ground on either side of the argument) he is going to be president next January 20th.

Most of the fear is the unknown. People mainly do not like change. The fear of the unknown may, hopefully, be worse than the reality of it.

Hopefully his rhetoric is worse that his actions. He wouldn't be the first politician to say a lot of one thing to get elected, then do almost the opposite once elected.

<This bit is my OPINION>
I worry, for us all! But that's me.

All the hyperbole and screaming aside... There are a few (and very few) parallels between Brexit and the Trump election.

*Career Politicians*
People are sick of the establishment. Sick of career politicians. Sick of being told what to do by people who have achieved nothing much more than a media studies degree, to master all those predictable and easily identifiable open hand gestures while they speak, so they can sell you their lies better.

From a UK perspective. People also didn't want to be part of the Federal United states of EU... which the common market (as was) seems to be metamorphosing into into. About this I am in total agreement... but I think we have put ourselves in a position of being outside the tent peeing in... Currency revaluation was inevitable... and uncertainty will continue for the foreseeable, followed by a new normal. That is how it will be.

*Globalisation & technology *
These have not quite panned out into the panacea we were sold. People didn't realise (despite being warned by many) that we were just exporting jobs and importing more goods altering our balance of trade. 

From a UK perspective we now sell more intangibles that "real stuff". We have to buy most of our real stuff from elsewhere.

I'm not sure how Trump or UK are going to fix this. This is the result of 40+ years of exporting these jobs. How is the steel industry going to be re-invented against cheap imports? How are people who demand living wages going to compete with people who live in parts of the world where a living wage is considerably less (and they often don't even get paid that much... and have no rights or protections against abuse or hazardous conditions)? How are plc companies, whose primary legal directive is to increase the profits for its shareholders, going to be persuaded to make decisions that will almost certainly reduce those profits?? We can't even get them to pay tax in anything like a normal way. If they don't like the tax regime where one would think it was due, they just cross-charge themselves through shell companies around the world for IP... and magic billions of dollars to wherever they want it.

*Immigration*
Where to start with that nettle. 
People aren't happy about their perceptions of immigration. I'll leave it at that.
I always think it is a bit rich for ex-pats to complain about immigration.

*The Environment*
I think that immigration and the environment share the same basic issue.

<This bit is a fact!>
It is a small world, there is only so much stuff to go around... there are too many us!

7 billion... and still people procreate at an unsustainable rate.
</This bit is a fact!>

I'm going to leave that right there... I could write about 4 more pages on this one but I'll save you all from any more of my ranting diatribe.
</This bit is my OPINION>


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

notdave said:


> <This bit is a fact!>
> It is a small world, there is only so much stuff to go around... there are too many us!
> 
> 7 billion... and still people procreate at an unsustainable rate.
> ...


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

notdave said:


> I always think it is a bit rich for ex-pats to complain about immigration.


Logic and extremism make distant bedfellows


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

notdave said:


> I always think it is a bit rich for ex-pats to complain about immigration.


If the two circumstances were the same, then you would be right.

Situation 1 : person arrives in the country with skills, at the request of the local population & businesses to perform a function which cannot be carried out by local people due to lack of experience, lack of skill or lack of credibility. Individual arrives, consumes in the local economy, sends some money back home and overall is a net contributor to the country. Without that person there, the country would be poorer, and the citizens would not have a skilled person to learn from. Individual leaves when they lose their job. they and their family goes back to their home country when their job is lost. there are no benefits to non-nationals.

Situation 2 : Person arrives in the country uninvited, with no practical skills to do a job which a local could easily do. Individual arrives, consumes practically nothing in the local economy, sends all the money they can back home to a remote family and overall is a net drain to the country given they consume significant welfare benefits. Without that person there, the country would be pretty much just the same, and the citizens would still get along without them. Individual brings their family with them after a period of time and looks to consume even more state resources without contributing. Population growth escalates as family size rises dramatically. person loses their job and they all stay here, consuming even more state resources, becoming a bigger drain on the country.

Not
Even 
Remotely
Similar.

The UAE definitely has the right approach.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

Such a simple outlook in Daily Mail land that

they
make
their
points
like
this.

More creative than the nazi's FACTS, I'll give you that much.


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Its much better than capitals 

And you read it properly.


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

twowheelsgood said:


> If the two circumstances were the same, then you would be right.
> 
> Situation 1 : person arrives in the country with skills


Or arrives, determined to work hard and develop the skills?



twowheelsgood said:


> Situation 2 : Person arrives in the country uninvited, with no practical skills to do a job which a local could easily do.


Or that locals don't want to do... at the moment...
Taxi drivers? Shop keepers? Road sweepers? Emiratis not capable of these things?



I remember my local shop, as a youngster... it used to deliver newspapers early in the morning . More correctly a local kid would get access to the shed at the back of the shop and send all the other newspaper boys, they were all male back then, off with their allocation of papers. No sign of the owners. They would open at 9-9:30am (so miss almost all of the work & school business)... close for an hour at lunch... then open until about 6:30. They charged almost extortionate prices (certainly take it or leave it prices).

(I can hear the hovis theme playing in the background as I type this )

The kerfuffle it caused in the area when the owners of the shop sold it to an Asian family! Talk of boycotting the place and how it was the end of civilisation as we knew it etc... The new owners started opening at 7:30am... Closing at 10pm. Extended a small corner shop into a reasonable mini-market. Needless to say... the place became a roaring success.

Britain *was* a nation of shopkeepers. It was beaten at its own game by hard working immigrants, often with very few skills other than the ability to add up and work hard. The willingness to work hard... is in the character of *many* immigrants. They have already got off their backsides.



twowheelsgood said:


> The UAE definitely has the right approach.


In part at least... At least they are *managing* immigration in a meaningful way.

Citizenship, for an immigrant, should be earned in some way and measured against your contribution to society, possibly through your taxes, or the jobs you create. The UAE does not even afford that luxury to foreigners.

There *must* be something wrong with the immigration system in the UK.
Becoming a German *citizen* for instance... is still, relatively, very difficult, even for Europeans... compared to becoming a UK subject. A friend's father has worked their as a professor at a German university for 20+ years. He cannot become a citizen. His age may play a part in it... I can't remember. As back then, when we were all in one big happy EU, it was never an issue. Not sure what he's planning now... He would rather be homeless that back in the UK!

In the UK, I think a *much* larger problem is the lazy huddled masses of indigenous population that inhabit the place. Sitting round, playing on their PlayStations/XBoxes all day, on their 40+ inch flat screen TV's, complaining about all those hard working immigrants coming over here, going to college and taking all our jobs.

The multi-generational families of complete "don't give a toss" that I have seen growing up make me shudder. Mainly white, English, yet barely English speaking. They learn nothing from their environment other than how to sign on and "work the system". No interest in school... no interest in contributing to society in any way other than to boost its numbers and have a free ride out of it.

Lets see how affording and supporting that goes in an EU free UK!
Maybe some of that 30 million a week (or whatever it was) can be spent fixing that problem.

Erm... slow day... apologies for the long winded discourse.


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

Who in their right mind would want citizenship and passport from here though? I'll stick with my UK and US ones thanks very much.


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

The Rascal said:


> Who in their right mind would want citizenship and passport from here though? I'll stick with my UK and US ones thanks very much.


A lot of people from less fortunate circumstances...


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

notdave said:


> There *must* be something wrong with the immigration system in the UK.


The problem isnt with the immigration system as such, as we can keep out undesirables from non-EU countries. its that the insistence of the EU that we treat everyone equally prevents us from looking after our own people (goodness knows they are enough of a pain) but we cannot even stop handing money out to the families of Polish plumbers who live here on their own, but claim child benefit for children in Poland, at the same rate as a London family.

A lot of the 'immigration' problem would be solved very quickly of benefits and welfare were only given out to own country nationals. Anyone esle who can support themselves is very welcome in the UK.

The UK (and Germany) have become a solution for Europes unemployment problems. People move from their failing economic states, to the Uk and increase the problem in the UK, while at the same time diverting money to their own country which has no incentive to sort its problems out because the problem just emigrated.

But in the longer term it'll be a disaster for all the countries exporting their unemployment as they wont have enough people living there to support their OAP's


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## The Rascal (Aug 6, 2014)

twowheelsgood said:


> The problem isnt with the immigration system as such, as we can keep out undesirables from non-EU countries. its that the insistence of the EU that we treat everyone equally prevents us from looking after our own people (goodness knows they are enough of a pain) but we cannot even stop handing money out to the families of Polish plumbers who live here on their own, but claim child benefit for children in Poland, at the same rate as a London family.
> 
> A lot of the 'immigration' problem would be solved very quickly of benefits and welfare were only given out to own country nationals. Anyone esle who can support themselves is very welcome in the UK.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## XDoodlebugger (Jan 24, 2012)

I always scratch my head when I get told illegal immigrants go to the US to "do jobs Americans don't want to do".

Currently 37% Hispanics, 41% blacks, 50% of legal immigrants, 70% of legal immigrants with kids are on welfare. Maybe they should be doing these jobs? Stop the welfare and let hunger motivate them to get off their ass.

But of course thinking that way makes me in that "basket of deplorables" Hillary talks about.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)




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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

twowheelsgood said:


> But in the longer term it'll be a disaster for all the countries exporting their unemployment as they wont have enough people living there to support their OAP's


I think between us somewhere there is a small amount of consensus. Though... the issue is (from my perspective) that part of the EU's remit is to provide a mobile workforce, without considering the whimsical nature of multinationals to this.

The multinationals treat is as their right to negotiate with whichever governments that they can for a favourable regime (whether that be tax breaks or "other benefits") throughout the EU... whenever they can, or feel like it.

The workforce have the "right" to become unemployed in whichever jurisdiction they find themselves abandoned in, by said multinationals, following the expiration of their current deal... whilst they move to the next.

This is indirectly what you described above... as the workforce becomes unemployed, they can chase their previous jobs, across Europe, in a wages "race to the bottom". All nations, one way or another, exporting their unemployed but never their unemployable!

I suppose the main question that finally came to the top of the pile in all this Brexit fuss... is the simple one of... "For the benefit of whom, does the EU exist?" And *many* people realised it isn't for the citizens/subjects. Maastricht... is when the creeping federalism *should* have been brought to a halt, and wasn't. This is when the writing has firmly on the wall... though many of us missed the significance of it at the time (me definitely included). 

The sole purpose of the existence of the EU... seems to be to protect big business from being held to account, any more than absolutely "necessary"! That and a few other rules to stop us from eating poison... but the protection of citizens pales into insignificance when compared to the protections that big business has sought, lobbied for, and mainly achieved.

But anyway... Brexit aside...

Is Trump...
Another sign of the impending arrival of the end of existence as we know it...
Or just another step towards... Idiocracy - A Truly Terrible film... but closer to the bone than I ever really thought we would get! (do watch it if you get chance... bear in mind all the way through it, it is terrible, but there is a warning in it! )
Or is he simply a chancer who overpromised to get elected... and will, inevitably, underdeliver (we can only hope!)


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## notdave (Jul 11, 2015)

Mr Rossi, 

Out of interest... were you a go or stay man in the Scottish referendum?
Have your views changed since?

And is somebody going to tell Nicola Sturgeon she can't just scream "referendum" every time she disagrees with Westminster. Is she trying to bankrupt both countries in a deluge of ongoing of referenda every time the wind changes direction?

It is almost becoming a tool of terrorism.. in that one successful vote destroys it all for everybody. No automatic right to have a "oh no... we didn't mean it" vote every other time the SNP fail to deliver!

(If you prefer not to answer, I completely understand)


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## twowheelsgood (Feb 21, 2013)

Technology eliminates menial jobs, replaces them with more challenging, more productive, and better paying ones... jobs for which 99% of people are unqualified.

But some people think the job of big business is to provide money and jobs for the masses. Its not. its to provide money and income for pensioners whose funds invest in the companies.

Sadly, too many think they are entitled to a job, despite being completely unsuitable for it.


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

The SNP have a responsibility to the 54 (out of 59) constituencies to deliver the polices they were elected on. It's also the role of opposition(s) to challenge government, this way creating some kind of equilibrium that benefits the nation as a whole. Or so the theory goes.

What might interest you is that in the 70's and 80's, when the SNP were mostly a single issue party, they were largely unelectable. It's only when they successful delivered favorable policies at local level, that they've managed to dominate Scottish politics.

Independence was a bit of an Achilles heel and few people realise it was Cameron that pushed heavily for the referendum. Thinking it would damage them politically and turn them back into a well meaning, but daft kiltie protest group.

I can't say I'm too up to date with domestic coverage at the moment but it suits everyone outside the SNP to push back to this with Jimmy Krankie, endless referendums and Braveheart rather than the centre-left policies that in many cases have had an actual positive impact on peoples lives.

And seeing as you asked, I supported the referendum at the time. Not because of any stupid nationalist sense of pride, but because I think they're currently nearest to the balance of entrepreneurship, private sector and civil responsibility as my own views. 

At the time, people did ask me "What about the poor in Liverpool, Newcastle etc?" and I agree that nobody in this day and age should need, wherever in the world they are. At the same time, the poor of these areas are let down by the two party system of the union and independence may have been better for both Scotland and England.

Currently I don't have a view either way as it's not on the table and it's not a priority issue.


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## QOFE (Apr 28, 2013)

Soooo....

A couple of months (and a bit) into Trump's presidency...

How are we feeling about him and his team now?

Spicer... Conway...Bannon... etc
What a dream team!


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## XDoodlebugger (Jan 24, 2012)

QOFE said:


> Soooo....
> 
> A couple of months (and a bit) into Trump's presidency...
> 
> ...


From my side he is doing no worse than the one we had before him. And as an added plus it has driven the liberals absolutely mad.


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## Byja (Mar 3, 2013)

Byja said:


> There was a big billboard in TECOM advertising certain developer's project with Trump name, however, it was replaced with one not mentioning him once he announced his campaign.
> Now that he won, I wonder how long will it take them to put the old one back again.


Yep, the billboards were back there again.


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