# Cruz Roja warning



## citlali

I will tell of my experience so that people are warned but will not discuss anything on the forum but you can draw your own conclusions.
After a nice relaxed day and watching a movie my husband colapsed and died within minutes a little bit past midnight on Wednesday morning.
As he was having problems breathing and I had an oxigen concentrator we were using for a bronchitis I put him on oxigen and ran accross the street to get my neighbor. They both arrived quickly My husband was dying as the oxmeter was showing a pulse on and off. He was dead by the time cruz roja arrived..
I opened the door and the gate for the ambuance and asked them to see if my husband was dead. They came in and cheked him and said there was nothing they could do and started writing their report .One of them without my knowledge called the police. 
I always was told not to involve the police so I had no intention to call them. 
Five minutes later 5 policemen from 2 patrullas walked in very rudely without knocking or asking if they coud could in. First violation from their part. The police cannot walk in a house uninvited without an order.
The 5 of them barged in because the door was opened. They were rude and asked who was faily saying that the other s could not speak. Good thing my neighbor was a cop in CDMX in a previous life and we are friends. so knowing the scenario he and his wife stayed and glued themselves to the officers " left leaving the capitan and 2 officers.
The Para Medic wrote their report saying it was a natural death and the police told me that because I did not have a doctor there with a death certificate they were going to cordon the room and that no one could enter. They told me to take my valuables out and leave the room. I told them no valuable and stepped out. One officer starting taking pictures of my husband, I objected and asked why they were doing this violating my rights to privacy and they said he had bruises, which was not true. 

They said they were to turn in the photos to the MP treating the bedroom as a crime scene.
My doctor spoke wit them saying that she could not issue a certifcate until the morning as the clinic that had the certificates was closed at night. t. The para medic said look it is a natural death , here is the report.. They did not want to know anything so my doctor recommended to me over the phone to have my husband taken out to the Funeral home and they would get the certificate in the morning,
So the funeral home came and took my husband away,, I was furious and felt violated by the police..

I asked Cruz Roja why they had called the police and they told me it was part of their procedure when there was a death,, I do not know if they only do that in Jalisco because of so many unatural daths or if it is correct in other states.. The private ambulances do not report to the police so if you do not want nasty surprises do not call cruz Roja.

My husband was alive when I called but he died before they showed up.

The experience with the police was nasty but could have been worse.. They were nasty to the doctor and harrassed the funeral home allnight until they got the certificate which they could not get at night. My lawyer called me a few time to see if I head from thaem after that..


----------



## eastwind

A terrible experience on top of an awful situation, very sorry for your loss.


----------



## surabi

I am so, so sorry, Citlali. Foremost about your loss and then that you had to deal with what ensued. 

Thank you for taking the time to post this.


----------



## MangoTango

Sorry for your loss but going on what you have posted in the past you have a wealth of family and friends to help you through this tough time. Use them. You are lucky. 

Like so many other things in Mexico it depends on where you are and who you are dealing with. In the area I live people normally call 911 and there is a pool of ambulances that rotate their services. You might get any one of five or so different ambulances depending on how busy things are. I cannot speak specifically about a Cruz Roja ambulance but I do know that when my wife needed an ambulance recently they got to the house fast and my wife was at the hospital very fast (and we live way outside town). BUT - what struck me was how fast the ambulance company was in handing me the bill (which wasn't terrible all things considered). And although the term is escaping me at the moment - I live in an area where the police are not allowed. If there is a bad accident on the main road you might see a police car but otherwise the community handles things for themselves. 

In no way do I want to diminish your experience but if there was a silver lining in my personal experiences of late it is that I/we had time to prepare. We had a plan and for the most part it worked. We live in a gated community and it was the guards who called the ambulance and rushed them to the house when they arrived. The doctor who was handling the palliative care was by my wife's side just about the same moment my wife arrived at the hospital (I honestly think she sleeps there). 

Is it callous of me to ask was this in Chiapis or Jalisco ?


----------



## MangoTango

Edit : I missed it at first - Jalisco.

My wife's doctor was very qualified to write up the death certificate but there was some reason I can't recall for her to suggest letting the crematorium do the certificate. Part of our planning included having a contract drawn up with the crematorium prior to my wife's passing. There was a lot of paperwork but the price wasn't so bad (maybe 45,000 pesos). One of the regrets I still have is that when the two guys in black suits came to pick up my wife I did not stay in the room with them as they put her in the bag. The other surprise was that when we followed the van to the crematorium and sat down across the desk from the guy handling the paperwork, and even though we had pre-paid the whole deal, they still managed to get more money out of me at that time. It just felt a little sleazy. The other decision at the time was - how many official copies of the certificate to get. I chose five and maybe I could have gotten by with fewer. Also - I picked up my wife after perhaps two days but it took maybe a week to get the certificates. Although I did have her certificate officially translated to English - I think everyone (even in the US) was ok with the Spanish version (It is a VERY simple document).


----------



## AnneLM

Citlali, I am so sorry to hear this.


----------



## citlali

Thank you for the condoleances.. I am a very lucky person as I have some very good friends in Chiapas Oaxaca and Jalisco.. The most touching things have been all the people from Chiapas and Oaxaca immediately making altars for my husband and offering a place in their land to put his ashes. 
I am not very sentimental about bodies.. so when the funeria guys came in my friends and I helped putting my husband in the bag. I tought I wanted to make a photo but I let him go without photos and that was a mistake. The cops took pictures saying he had bruises when he did not. My friend after they left asked me if I had a photo and I said no, he said too bad because they can photoshop what they have if they want to. It was surreal to feel I was on a crime scene and I was the suspect 10 minutes after te ambulance came.
For those who do not live in a place with security close the gate after the ambulance comes in and do not let the cops in. They have no right to enter without an order.These guys violated several rights..

The funeria home asked me to make a denuncia but the lawyer of the company I work for told me to drop it and be happy if nothing happens...

In a way this kept me occupied and I was too busy to be really sad until the next day.. I have no regrets except the picture to protect me.. My husband was cremated wednesday, same day and I am getting the certificates tomorrow. I did not go to the cremation and will pick up the ashes tomorrow. We had just been offered a house in a Oaxaca village and my husband wanted to move there so we will burry him there in July as we plant a tree and will have our friends dance a while the danza de la pluma and mezcal will follow and every year there will be a day de muertos with more mezcal.. Many friends from Chiapas want to come, it could be a rarely nice event. As the saying says you have three deaths , the final is when no one remembers you so just as well postpone this third event.

I got a bunch of certificates because I am dealing with 3 countries and France is worse than Mexico about paper..
The cremation the ashes and 10 copies were 22 000 pesos..Bob will be buried as Mexican which means the US consulate will not be notified and I will have to do that when I am ready. Many people told me that as bi national the funerary home notifies the consulate but it is ot so it is just a service the funarary Home offers. Apparently you have to do a bunch of paperwork for the consulate but they will give me a copy of what they do.and I will do it.

Mango Tango you just cannot prepare for everything in the case of my husband he died in 8 minutes ..I had oxigen at the house and an oximeter as he was recovering from a nasty bronchitis but was doing fine, the doctor had come by the house 4 days before and he was fine , I saw the line of the pulse go straight... so I know when he died.


----------



## TundraGreen

.My condolences on your loss Citlali.


----------



## AlanMexicali

I am sorry to hear about Bob. My condolences. Alan


----------



## Isla Verde

I was the guest of Citlali and her late husband at both of their lovely homes and also had the pleasure of their company a few times in Mexico City. Bob was a wonderful guy, and he will be missed by all of the many people he met over his lifetime. As we say in the Jewish tradition, May his memory be for many blessings! QEPD.


----------



## eastwind

"The funeral home asked me to make a denuncia but the lawyer of the company I work for told me to drop it and be happy if nothing happens... "

I think that is wise - save your fire to use as counter-fire. I doubt anything will happen, as you say we will all draw our own conclusions - mine is that they made their play and will now let it go.

As for certificates, I had to help my Mom when my Dad died back in the US, and she ran out and had to get more. For anyone reading the thread and planning ahead, an original is needed for every bank account, retirement account, pension (including social security), annuity, life insurance policy, plus every piece of real estate and every car titled in the person's name. If multiple accounts are held with the same institution you probably only need one for that institution. In the case of my parents they'd experimented with a lot of small investments over time and done little to consolidate or simplify so there were a lot of little accounts to deal with.

Plus if you have to file US taxes for Bob for 2021 and 2022 I don't know what the requirement is for attaching a certificate, probably just a copy, not an original. You might have to file an original with the embassy.


----------



## Jreboll

citlali said:


> I will tell of my experience so that people are warned but will not discuss anything on the forum but you can draw your own conclusions.
> After a nice relaxed day and watching a movie my husband colapsed and died within minutes a little bit past midnight on Wednesday morning.
> As he was having problems breathing and I had an oxigen concentrator we were using for a bronchitis I put him on oxigen and ran accross the street to get my neighbor. They both arrived quickly My husband was dying as the oxmeter was showing a pulse on and off. He was dead by the time cruz roja arrived..
> I opened the door and the gate for the ambuance and asked them to see if my husband was dead. They came in and cheked him and said there was nothing they could do and started writing their report .One of them without my knowledge called the police.
> I always was told not to involve the police so I had no intention to call them.
> Five minutes later 5 policemen from 2 patrullas walked in very rudely without knocking or asking if they coud could in. First violation from their part. The police cannot walk in a house uninvited without an order.
> The 5 of them barged in because the door was opened. They were rude and asked who was faily saying that the other s could not speak. Good thing my neighbor was a cop in CDMX in a previous life and we are friends. so knowing the scenario he and his wife stayed and glued themselves to the officers " left leaving the capitan and 2 officers.
> The Para Medic wrote their report saying it was a natural death and the police told me that because I did not have a doctor there with a death certificate they were going to cordon the room and that no one could enter. They told me to take my valuables out and leave the room. I told them no valuable and stepped out. One officer starting taking pictures of my husband, I objected and asked why they were doing this violating my rights to privacy and they said he had bruises, which was not true.
> 
> They said they were to turn in the photos to the MP treating the bedroom as a crime scene.
> My doctor spoke wit them saying that she could not issue a certifcate until the morning as the clinic that had the certificates was closed at night. t. The para medic said look it is a natural death , here is the report.. They did not want to know anything so my doctor recommended to me over the phone to have my husband taken out to the Funeral home and they would get the certificate in the morning,
> So the funeral home came and took my husband away,, I was furious and felt violated by the police..
> 
> I asked Cruz Roja why they had called the police and they told me it was part of their procedure when there was a death,, I do not know if they only do that in Jalisco because of so many unatural daths or if it is correct in other states.. The private ambulances do not report to the police so if you do not want nasty surprises do not call cruz Roja.
> 
> My husband was alive when I called but he died before they showed up.
> 
> The experience with the police was nasty but could have been worse.. They were nasty to the doctor and harrassed the funeral home allnight until they got the certificate which they could not get at night. My lawyer called me a few time to see if I head from thaem after that..


I’m sorry to hear of the passing of your husband. I very much enjoyed his postings over the years. It seems he had a peaceful death and that is always a blessing. May you find peace and contentment during these trying times.


----------



## citlali

MangoTango In Chiapa de Corzo lthe original indigenous were called Chiapa so the State is called Chiapas not Chiapis


----------



## citlali

Jreboll quick and peaceful is the best. I wish that or myself. May people in my family get cancer and it is so bad.. always hanging over your head and it can be very painful. I do not wish that on anyone.
Bob loved to write but he had een losing interest in just about everything so it was a little sad.


----------



## Bobbyb

Sorry for your loss. In Mexico one never knows what will happen when Cruz roja or cops are involved. Fortunately you are not new to Mexico


----------



## citlali

Thank you to everyone for your condoleances. but I feel I was very lucky.. After 51 years of marriage , I lost my husband after spending a great day with him finishing the day watching some silly movies then he died in a few minutes, did not fuffer long.. We all have to die and he was very lucky. I have great friends who are calling me all day long and we chat, go out together , make dates etc.. There are lots of people who are a whole lot more worse off than I am.. but thanks anyways.

Red cross and cops.. bad combination


The cops. I have been warn for 20 years to never let them in because w all know what happens if you do.. 
But Red Cross no one has never warned me about them and I have given good money over the years to themm, Well no more. and I am sure going to investigate what their policies are ..
On lesson for me I will never have them come to my house. I can understand that they have a policy to call the cops if they are called and the person is dead when they arrive , although the ambulance wrote a report saying it was a natural death.
The Red Cross knows that no certificate of death are issued at night in Chapala because the clinic for the paperwork is closed. So what is the logic of demanding that certificate when it cannot be gotten until the morning?

I do not know about your areas but in Chapala the foreigners are supporting the Red Cross and they show up ask me to keep the gate open so the ambulance could come and go and they call the cop without letting me know first or at least after they did so I could close the door. The cops came in which is in violation of my rights and then treat the place lik a crime scene because the doctor has not issued a death certificate which cannot be obtain until the next morning??

I have called the president of LCS which is the foreigners gathering place here. and asked that he speak with the director of the red cross in Chapala but she is sick and will not be available for 2 weeks..
Tomorrow I will get a friend of mine to get me an appointment with the director who is above this area and ask him/ her to explain to me what is the procedure and ask him to review it .
The Red Cross the way I see it gets lots of money here from foreigners and many lone women losing their husband at night are getting robbed by the cops. This I heard from the funeral home and I spoke to a widow who told that it happened to 3 of her friends..No one wants to talk about that because no one wants to deal with the cops.. ok es Mexico .. smart

The Red cross is one of the problem and that I will not accept and I want to do something about it. All they have to do is modify their procedure and tell people or handover a paper in English saying that they have to call the police and it is up to each person to open to the cops outside if they do not have an order.. simple.

I guess this all incident is good for me because while on the warpath I will not get sad.. just mad as hell..


----------



## citlali

citlali said:


> Thank you to everyone for your condoleances. but I feel I was very lucky.. After 51 years of marriage , I lost my husband after spending a great day with him finishing the day watching some silly movies then he died in a few minutes, did not fuffer long.. We all have to die and he was very lucky. I have great friends who are calling me all day long and we chat, go out together , make dates etc.. There are lots of people who are a whole lot more worse off than I am.. but thanks anyways.
> 
> Red cross and cops.. bad combination
> 
> 
> The cops. I have been warn for 20 years to never let them in because w all know what happens if you do..
> But Red Cross no one has never warned me about them and I have given good money over the years to themm, Well no more. and I am sure going to investigate what their policies are ..
> On lesson for me I will never have them come to my house. I can understand that they have a policy to call the cops if they are called and the person is dead when they arrive , although the ambulance wrote a report saying it was a natural death.
> The Red Cross knows that no certificate of death are issued at night in Chapala because the clinic for the paperwork is closed. So what is the logic of demanding that certificate when it cannot be gotten until the morning?
> 
> Yes Bobbyb , I was lucky imagine a woman who does not speak Spanish and alone at night having to deal with his, and I was assured it has happened..
> I am a Mexican citizen, speak SPanish know the rules and had Mexican friends close by who stay with me the whole time, I cannot imagine what I would have done if I had been alone and see 5 cops walking into my house, putting a yellow tape on the bedroom, asking me to take my valuables out and taking pictures of the corpse of my husband who had died 20 minutes before.. It really has all the right elements for a horror movie.
> 
> I do not know about your areas but in Chapala the foreigners are supporting the Red Cross and they show up ask me to keep the gate open so the ambulance could come and go and they call the cop without letting me know first or at least after they did so I could close the door. The cops came in which is in violation of my rights and then treat the place lik a crime scene because the doctor has not issued a death certificate which cannot be obtain until the next morning??
> 
> I have called the president of LCS which is the foreigners gathering place here. and asked that he speak with the director of the red cross in Chapala but she is sick and will not be available for 2 weeks..
> Tomorrow I will get a friend of mine to get me an appointment with the director who is above this area and ask him/ her to explain to me what is the procedure and ask him to review it .
> The Red Cross the way I see it gets lots of money here from foreigners and many lone women losing their husband at night are getting robbed by the cops. This I heard from the funeral home and I spoke to a widow who told that it happened to 3 of her friends..No one wants to talk about that because no one wants to deal with the cops.. ok es Mexico .. smart
> 
> The Red cross is one of the problem and that I will not accept and I want to do something about it. All they have to do is modify their procedure and tell people or handover a paper in English saying that they have to call the police and it is up to each person to open to the cops outside if they do not have an order.. simple.
> 
> I guess this all incident is good for me because while on the warpath I will not get sad.. just mad as hell..


----------



## MangoTango

citlali said:


> I guess this all incident is good for me because while on the warpath I will not get sad.. just mad as hell..


I am not a psychiatrist and probably have no business saying this but, for me, there was a lot of truth in what you have written. For me it wasn't anger - it was stress. I had a couple very stressful situations which cropped up literally days after my wife's passing. They consumed me. I worried about them 20 hours a day. Well just recently (after four months) it appears those situations have been resolved and there literally a void in my life. The emotions which were delayed are now beginning to fill that void. I deeply regret that I could not properly grieve earlier. My unsolicited message - the sooner you put your anger behind you - the better off you will be. You need to be sad.


----------



## citlali

Sadness comes and go all day , I am not consummed by anger.. I am very busy with my projects that keep coming..I know I have lost a life compagnion I cannot replace but I also know that there is nothing anyone can do for me, I have to get over it .
Losing a husband is nothing like losing a child, especially when my husband was 80.. I knew that the possibility of dying for one of us was getting closer every day.. I am ok with that . That is life no one can escape it. 
It is rough and there will be a hole for a long time.. No more exchanging small talk , sharing ideas doing things together etc.. That is why I feel so lucky I was able to have a wondeful day with him on his last day. His agony lasted 8 long minutes but just minutes and that makes me feel at peace..
Every one is different.. It may hit me later or not , future will tell but I am not going to worry about it.
I learned long ago how to manage stress and I do not get that stressed any longer. I am more like , do no forget and get even when I have the oportunity . I do not stew over thing.. If I can do something I will but there are lots of other things to do as well so we will see.
Mexico has taught me to take one day at a time and tomorrow is another day.. .. At work they called me Scarlet...


----------



## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Thank you to everyone for your condoleances. but I feel I was very lucky.. After 51 years of marriage , I lost my husband after spending a great day with him finishing the day watching some silly movies then he died in a few minutes, did not fuffer long.. We all have to die and he was very lucky. I have great friends who are calling me all day long and we chat, go out together , make dates etc.. There are lots of people who are a whole lot more worse off than I am.. but thanks anyways.
> 
> Red cross and cops.. bad combination
> 
> 
> The cops. I have been warn for 20 years to never let them in because w all know what happens if you do..
> But Red Cross no one has never warned me about them and I have given good money over the years to themm, Well no more. and I am sure going to investigate what their policies are ..
> On lesson for me I will never have them come to my house. I can understand that they have a policy to call the cops if they are called and the person is dead when they arrive , although the ambulance wrote a report saying it was a natural death.
> The Red Cross knows that no certificate of death are issued at night in Chapala because the clinic for the paperwork is closed. So what is the logic of demanding that certificate when it cannot be gotten until the morning?
> 
> I do not know about your areas but in Chapala the foreigners are supporting the Red Cross and they show up ask me to keep the gate open so the ambulance could come and go and they call the cop without letting me know first or at least after they did so I could close the door. The cops came in which is in violation of my rights and then treat the place lik a crime scene because the doctor has not issued a death certificate which cannot be obtain until the next morning??
> 
> I have called the president of LCS which is the foreigners gathering place here. and asked that he speak with the director of the red cross in Chapala but she is sick and will not be available for 2 weeks..
> Tomorrow I will get a friend of mine to get me an appointment with the director who is above this area and ask him/ her to explain to me what is the procedure and ask him to review it .
> The Red Cross the way I see it gets lots of money here from foreigners and many lone women losing their husband at night are getting robbed by the cops. This I heard from the funeral home and I spoke to a widow who told that it happened to 3 of her friends..No one wants to talk about that because no one wants to deal with the cops.. ok es Mexico .. smart
> 
> The Red cross is one of the problem and that I will not accept and I want to do something about it. All they have to do is modify their procedure and tell people or handover a paper in English saying that they have to call the police and it is up to each person to open to the cops outside if they do not have an order.. simple.
> 
> I guess this all incident is good for me because while on the warpath I will not get sad.. just mad as hell..


I know you well, amiga. If you get on the Red Cross's case, they will soon be shaking in their boots!


----------



## citlali

By the way , you are right grieving is mentally healthy but some people are good at it and some are not . I am somewhere in between..Msy be these overwhelming waves of sadness will get worth orbut eventually they go away and you are left with a hole in your heart and that you cannot ever do anything about. Sometimes I am still grieving a baby I lost 50 years ao. That is life , you have to take the good with the bad.


----------



## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Sadness comes and go all day , I am not consummed by anger.. I am very busy with my projects that keep coming..I know I have lost a life compagnion I cannot replace but I also know that there is nothing anyone can do for me, I have to get over it .
> Losing a husband is nothing like losing a child, especially when my husband was 80.. I knew that the possibility of dying for one of us was getting closer every day.. I am ok with that . That is life no one can escape it.
> It is rough and there will be a hole for a long time.. No more exchanging small talk , sharing ideas doing things together etc.. That is why I feel so lucky I was able to have a wondeful day with him on his last day. His agony lasted 8 long minutes but just minutes and that makes me feel at peace..
> Every one is different.. It may hit me later or not , future will tell but I am not going to worry about it.
> I learned long ago how to manage stress and I do not get that stressed any longer. I am more like , do no forget and get even when I have the oportunity . I do not stew over thing.. If I can do something I will but there are lots of other things to do as well so we will see.
> Mexico has taught me to take one day at a time and tomorrow is another day.. .. At work they called me Scarlet...


Stress is still a big problem for me. If you organize a stress-management class online, I will be the first to sign up for it.


----------



## citlali

What I want them to do is change the procedure. to warning people they have to call the police. There is a person that gives a low down on end of life procedures here and they say not to call the police, ever , if there isa dead person so I knew better. I will advise them tomorrow to enter is their procedure not to use cruz roja or shut the door after the ambulance is in. I will also get the local paper to go and intervew cruz roja on the subject so all the locals will know about their procedure and if they change that can be publish too.. All of that is assuming that there is a cruz roja procedure, it could have been all BS and theall of them nmay have been playing a game. 
I just asked a friend in CDMX if he was aware that cruz roja would call th epolice and he told me know.
I asked my doctor to please look into it as well. so the truth will come out eventually.. Then people can decide if they want to give them mone y or not, For my part they now can forget it.


----------



## citlali

Isla Verde said:


> Stress is still a big problem for me. If you organize a stress-management class online, I will be the first to sign up for it.


When I was promoted VP sales over a bunch of men who thought they were more qualified than I was , they gave me hell.. I had no friends, I was lonely and could not get any advise from anyone. I trusted no one. I was the first woman in that job and it was extremely stressful , my back was killing me and I went to the doctor to tell him I needed a break. He told me you have to learn how to deal with it because if I give you a break now you will have the same problem after wards.
I remember that when I was in college I had a handicapped friend who received Zen monks in his digs and they talked one day how you could control pain through meditation. I started to make the pain away a few minutes at a time and after weeks of trying it improved. , then I learned how to break down the day.. like you have to make it the next hour and then it is ok. I got to break down the day to a couple of minutes, that is how awful it was but once you live in the present and do not worry about what will happen later on, you can control a lot of stress.. That is how how I started realizing I had to live in the present and this has helped me ever since,, It is difficult to do if it is not in your personality but it can be done and then a lot of problems related to stress will go away.

when the whole thing happened I realized I was in shock.. first at not being able to help my husband and then realizing I was part of a crime scene. I fought back and my friends helped me but I could not sleep, could not cry could not feel anything until the next day. I went for 2 days without a minute of sleep but then the next day, I got busy, cried oncein a while and had no problem sleeping until 10 am..and I have slept well every day. You have to make the decision not to let the stress get to you and work on it. You are the only one who can make it go away without doping yourself, YOu are the answer not the pills not another person. If te fakirs in India can slow down their hearts, imagine what the mind can do,


----------



## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> When I was promoted VP sales over a bunch of men who thought they were more qualified than I was , they gave me hell.. I had no friends, I was lonely and could not get any advise from anyone. I trusted no one. I was the first woman in that job and it was extremely stressful , my back was killing me and I went to the doctor to tell him I needed a break. He told me you have to learn how to deal with it because if I give you a break now you will have the same problem after wards.
> I remember that when I was in college I had a handicapped friend who received Zen monks in his digs and they talked one day how you could control pain through meditation. I started to make the pain away a few minutes at a time and after weeks of trying it improved. , then I learned how to break down the day.. like you have to make it the next hour and then it is ok. I got to break down the day to a couple of minutes, that is how awful it was but once you live in the present and do not worry about what will happen later on, you can control a lot of stress.. That is how how I started realizing I had to live in the present and this has helped me ever since,, It is difficult to do if it is not in your personality but it can be done and then a lot of problems related to stress will go away.
> 
> when the whole thing happened I realized I was in shock.. first at not being able to help my husband and then realizing I was part of a crime scene. I fought back and my friends helped me but I could not sleep, could not cry could not feel anything until the next day. I went for 2 days without a minute of sleep but then the next day, I got busy, cried oncein a while and had no problem sleeping until 10 am..and I have slept well every day. You have to make the decision not to let the stress get to you and work on it. You are the only one who can make it go away without doping yourself, YOu are the answer not the pills not another person. If te fakirs in India can slow down their hearts, imagine what the mind can do,


Thanks for the advice. It is not in my personality, as you put it, to live just in the present, but I will try to begin to put this idea into practice. I have had anxiety/depression problems for some years now and saw a shrink for a couple of years. This helped, but not as much as I had hoped. Since the doctor I was seeing is no longer available, I will try to fix up my psyche on my own. I have started by deleting one particular person from my life (I think you know who I mean) and will hope for the best. 

Have a good day and a better week! I will try to do the same.


----------



## Jreboll

citlali said:


> What I want them to do is change the procedure. to warning people they have to call the police. There is a person that gives a low down on end of life procedures here and they say not to call the police, ever , if there isa dead person so I knew better. I will advise them tomorrow to enter is their procedure not to use cruz roja or shut the door after the ambulance is in. I will also get the local paper to go and intervew cruz roja on the subject so all the locals will know about their procedure and if they change that can be publish too.. All of that is assuming that there is a cruz roja procedure, it could have been all BS and theall of them nmay have been playing a game.
> I just asked a friend in CDMX if he was aware that cruz roja would call th epolice and he told me know.
> I asked my doctor to please look into it as well. so the truth will come out eventually.. Then people can decide if they want to give them mone y or not, For my part they now can forget it.


If I remember right my sister-in-law went and got his doctor as soon as he died. In the morning they went to the funeral home to make arrangements and to city hall to fill out all the paperwork. Police and Cruz Roja were never involved.


----------



## citlali

The problem is that my husband was alived when we called Cruz Roja and dead by the time they arrived. I immediately called the doctor who comes to my house but she was asleep and did not pick up until I called again and then she called back just in time to speak to the cops.
No certificates can be issued at night in Chapala because the office of the clinic is closed until 8am and that gives the police plenty of time to the police to start problems because their excuse if that they are responsable until a certificate is issue even if the medic have a report saying it is natural death. They threaten to call Munisterio Publico , cordon off the room..etcet.. First think I learned here 20 years ago is to never let the cops in or call them and cruz roja called them righaway whithout my knowledge.. Apparently it is happening a lot in our area. at night of course..with poor scared widows like me... ja ja


----------



## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> The problem is that my husband was alived when we called Cruz Roja and dead by the time they arrived. I immediately called the doctor who comes to my house but she was asleep and did not pick up until I called again and then she called back just in time to speak to the cops.
> No certificates can be issued at night in Chapala because the office of the clinic is closed until 8am and that gives the police plenty of time to the police to start problems because their excuse if that they are responsable until a certificate is issue even if the medic have a report saying it is natural death. They threaten to call Munisterio Publico , cordon off the room..etcet.. First think I learned here 20 years ago is to never let the cops in or call them and cruz roja called them righaway whithout my knowledge.. Apparently it is happening a lot in our area. at night of course..with poor scared widows like me... ja ja


You are now indeed (sadly) a widow, amiga, but a "poor, scared" one, hah! The idiot cops had no idea whose feathers they were ruffling!


----------



## alan-in-mexicali

MangoTango said:


> Edit : I missed it at first - Jalisco.
> 
> My wife's doctor was very qualified to write up the death certificate but there was some reason I can't recall for her to suggest letting the crematorium do the certificate. Part of our planning included having a contract drawn up with the crematorium prior to my wife's passing. There was a lot of paperwork but the price wasn't so bad (maybe 45,000 pesos). One of the regrets I still have is that when the two guys in black suits came to pick up my wife I did not stay in the room with them as they put her in the bag. The other surprise was that when we followed the van to the crematorium and sat down across the desk from the guy handling the paperwork, and even though we had pre-paid the whole deal, they still managed to get more money out of me at that time. It just felt a little sleazy. The other decision at the time was - how many official copies of the certificate to get. I chose five and maybe I could have gotten by with fewer. Also - I picked up my wife after perhaps two days but it took maybe a week to get the certificates. Although I did have her certificate officially translated to English - I think everyone (even in the US) was ok with the Spanish version (It is a VERY simple document).


MY WIFE AND I ALSO HAVE A PREPAID FUNERAL PLAN... BUT... WE WERE TOLD UP FRONT OF "ADDITIONAL FEES" CHARGED AT DEATH... ONE OF WHICH IS A "TAX" PAID TO THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO DIE! CAN NOT BE PREPAID UNTIL YOU UP AND DIE!


----------



## Isla Verde

alan-in-mexicali said:


> MY WIFE AND I ALSO HAVE A PREPAID FUNERAL PLAN... BUT... WE WERE TOLD UP FRONT OF "ADDITIONAL FEES" CHARGED AT DEATH... ONE OF WHICH IS A "TAX" PAID TO THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO DIE! CAN NOT BE PREPAID UNTIL YOU UP AND DIE!


A "death tax", only in Mexico!


----------



## Takingiteasy

My condolences, citlali. Losing your life partner is a great loss. You seem to have a good philosophy I think you will get through this ok.


----------



## citlali

Thank you... We all die so a quick death is a blessing, although it is a shock on the family.. Death is always a shock anyways..but we should not be surprise it will for sure happen to all of us.
Harassement by the police and screw up or worst from the Red Cross is another story and I plan to take care of the latter one


Jreboll said:


> If I remember right my sister-in-law went and got his doctor as soon as he died. In the morning they went to the funeral home to make arrangements and to city hall to fill out all the paperwork. Police and Cruz Roja were never involved.


The problem is that it happened at night and Red Cross called the polic.
The police is nver to be called unless it is a crime or a violent death.
The red cross ruled it a natural death so they should not have called to start with but they say it was their procedure
and second they should have told me they were calling the police and to close the door.. so to me they are totally of haf responsible for what happen. Going after the police who violated my rights is a waste of time and can be dangerous but going after Red Cross and have them change their procedure may be easier especially since this is happening often where I live according the owner of the funeral home.. A lawyer friend of mine is on it and investigating right now to see if that procedure is from Guadalajara or is local and we will go after Red cross to have them change it...
Red cross depends on the domations from the community and money rom the States and tey can be exposed so we will see.

Red cross was involved because ny husband was in trouble, I called the doctor at midnight she did not answer, I called her again at 12.15 and I called red cross at the same time and my neighbors.. No one answered except for Red cross that arrive at 12.20 before the doctor called again.. I think the police showed up at12,25 and my docotor called at 12.30..
I ran accross the street to ring the bell twice and I was also trying to revive my husband with oxigene and was seeing his pulse stop and go on the oxi,eter.. it was pretty cazy

Thank God for my neighbors who arrived before the ambulance and helped me and were witness to the nastiness of the cops.
.


----------



## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Thank you... We all die so a quick death is a blessing, although it is a shock on the family.. Death is always a shock anyways..but we should not be surprise it will for sure happen to all of us.
> Harassement by the police and screw up or worst from the Red Cross is another story and I plan to take care of the latter one
> 
> The problem is that it happened at night and Red Cross called the polic.
> The police is nver to be called unless it is a crime or a violent death.
> The red cross ruled it a natural death so they should not have called to start with but they say it was their procedure
> and second they should have told me they were calling the police and to close the door.. so to me they are totally of haf responsible for what happen. Going after the police who violated my rights is a waste of time and can be dangerous but going after Red Cross and have them change their procedure may be easier especially since this is happening often where I live according the owner of the funeral home.. A lawyer friend of mine is on it and investigating right now to see if that procedure is from Guadalajara or is local and we will go after Red cross to have them change it...
> Red cross depends on the domations from the community and money rom the States and tey can be exposed so we will see.
> 
> Red cross was involved because ny husband was in trouble, I called the doctor at midnight she did not answer, I called her again at 12.15 and I called red cross at the same time and my neighbors.. No one answered except for Red cross that arrive at 12.20 before the doctor called again.. I think the police showed up at12,25 and my docotor called at 12.30..
> I ran accross the street to ring the bell twice and I was also trying to revive my husband with oxigene and was seeing his pulse stop and go on the oxi,eter.. it was pretty cazy
> 
> Thank God for my neighbors who arrived before the ambulance and helped me and were witness to the nastiness of the cops.
> .


Good luck with your Cruz Roja campaign!


----------



## citlali

Thank you , I have a feeling we will need all the luck we ca, I want to warn other .. For me it is too late, I learned about it the hard way.


----------



## MangoTango

citlali said:


> Thank you , I have a feeling we will need all the luck we ca, want to warn other .. For me it is too late, I learned about it the hard way.


I'm sorry for your experience, but I've got to say - for me the Cruz Roja has been a godsend. I visit their facility maybe 3-4 times a year. The place is cleaner than the house I live in. It is my go-to place if I know what medicines I would like a prescription written for. On occasion I think I may have even asked them to 'fix me up' in ways they are not accustomed to. 

Regarding this police involvement (and I don't mean to come across as uncompassionate) - was there a police report ? Do you think rather than violence someone may have suspected something like euthanasia ? I know it occurs in Mexico yet at the same time I know it can be take very seriously by some people.


----------



## Jreboll

MangoTango said:


> I'm sorry for your experience, but I've got to say - for me the Cruz Roja has been a godsend. I visit their facility maybe 3-4 times a year. The place is cleaner than the house I live in. It is my go-to place if I know what medicines I would like a prescription written for. On occasion I think I may have even asked them to 'fix me up' in ways they are not accustomed to.
> 
> Regarding this police involvement (and I don't mean to come across as uncompassionate) - was there a police report ? Do you think rather than violence someone may have suspected something like euthanasia ? I know it occurs in Mexico yet at the same time I know it can be take very seriously by some people.


You give the cops too much credit. I once had a fender bender right at the zocalo in Mexico City. There were so many cops showed up that it looked like a convention. I called my brother-in-law who worked for the Procuradoria. He said not to give them any documents or say anything until he got there. When he showed up with 3 or 4 of his buddies from the Procu the cops all vanished into thin air. In Mexico a cop never lets a crisis go to waste.


----------



## citlali

Mango to suspect something you have to have a brain and use it for thinking these guys are predators, they have been robbing the foreigners especially the women at night when they have nowhere to turn, The funeral home yesterday called me to tell me they did another similar thing yesterday to one of her clients. It is happening on a regular basis, they do this to extort people and the red cross is in on it or they sure help them by calling them when they should not.
My experience, call them to say there is a robbery and they will show up way after the thieves are gone but tell them a gringa is in distress and her husband is dead and the cars wil show up within 5 minutes.
They were threatening to call Fiscal . I have no idea if they did a report, if they did I sure did not see it. 
The cruz roja here is not great their machines are not well maintained and a friend went there in an emergency and they had nothing to help her, they had to transfer her to a hospital to do basic tests.
I would think each area is different.. but we will see what the procedures are here versus Guadaljara. I suspect that there is a whole lot of differnce between the 2 areas. To start with Guadajara offices can issue death certificates at night so that cuts out one big asset for the cups harassement.. They cannot harass people at night for not getting the certificates.
We will see what happens.


----------



## MangoTango

btw - I did ask for 5 certificates and I _know_ I have at least 3 (maybe 4) still. I sent one to the US embassy via DHL (for social security) and they DHL'd it back. Most people look at it and hand it back. I know one went with my wife's Mexican will. 

Here, Cruz Roja will not give you an injection. Yet - they are the place to go if you get zapped by a scorpion - and that costs like 800 pesos - a lot for a gardener to pay. I have not needed it, but if I get stung by an abeja I would go to Cruz Roja (I'm allergic).


----------



## Takingiteasy

My only encounter with mx cruz roja was to get covid testing and it seemed to go well. In the states the red cross seems to be doing a good job. I did quite a bit of volunteer work for them a few years back


----------



## timmy45

Thank you, MangoTango, once again you are a voice of reason and thoughtfulness. Everyone has a "friend" or knows someone who has a friend that has bad experience, and often with the police. I wonder why we never hear about police misuse of power in the US (tongue in cheek) Thanks for your reply, I wish you the best as you move forward in your journey.


----------



## Jreboll

timmy45 said:


> Thank you, MangoTango, once again you are a voice of reason and thoughtfulness. Everyone has a "friend" or knows someone who has a friend that has bad experience, and often with the police. I wonder why we never hear about police misuse of power in the US (tongue in cheek) Thanks for your reply, I wish you the best as you move forward in your journey.


We were talking oftwo different things. He was talking of Cruz Roja, we were talking of cops.
In certain small towns in Michoacan there are narco turf wars going on right now. There’s self-imposed lock downs by town people and cops are no where to be seen.


----------



## timmy45

There are multiple points of discussion throughout this rambling thread. My comment was directed at both the criticisms of police generally and the Cruz Roja......many based on rumor and some individual experiences. My personal experiences with both have been above reproach and professional.


----------



## AnneLM

Since 98% of violent crimes in Mexico go unsolved, it's not unreasonable to be a skeptic when it comes to law enforcement.


----------



## timmy45

This way of thinking makes my point. When someone make a premise statement like "Since 98% of violent crimes in Mexico go unsolved, " many reasonable people discount the validity of the statement. Since 98% of the population agrees with me, we know that the honest people in law enforcement are the majority..;.;..... Makes absolute sense, No?


----------



## AnneLM

That some reasonable people might doubt my statement hardly proves your point. The percentage of unsolved crimes varies by state. Figures are available from reputable news sources. I love Mexico but law enforcement is not one of its strong points.


----------



## MangoTango

MangoTango said:


> And although the term is escaping me at the moment - I live in an area where the police are not allowed. If there is a bad accident on the main road you might see a police car but otherwise the community handles things for themselves.


My how quickly a week passes these days... So my gardener is here with me today. The town(area) I live in dates back to the Aztecs and many of the traditions are pre-Hispanic. As I wrote there are no police allowed. My gardener says the term is 'La Ronda' (I'm sure someone will correct my spelling). It can be a little extreme at times. A while back a guy tried to steal a tinaco. Well he was caught and a week or so later there was a foul odor in one area of town. The thief was found entombed inside a tinaco. BUT - the two vehicles which make up the local patrol are known for demanding 'mordida'.


----------



## AlanMexicali

Deleted - Duplicate post.


----------



## AlanMexicali

AnneLM said:


> Since 98% of violent crimes in Mexico go unsolved, it's not unreasonable to be a skeptic when it comes to law enforcement.





AnneLM said:


> That some reasonable people might doubt my statement hardly proves your point. The percentage of unsolved crimes varies by state. Figures are available from reputable news sources. I love Mexico but law enforcement is not one of its strong points.


I have heard this Expat rumor for decades.









2019 cerrará con 36,000 homicidios y solo 1 de cada 10 se castiga: reportes


Causa en Común e Impunidad Cero presentaron informes en los que alertan sobre el alza de los homicidios.




www.google.com





"MEXICO

2019 will close with 36,000 homicides and only 1 in 10 is punished: reports

Common Cause and Zero Impunity presented reports warning of the rise in homicides.

Tue 03 December 2019 06:20 PM

￼2019 is shaping up to close as the most violent year on record in recent decades. (PHOTO: Cuartoscuro)

@ExpPolitica

This year could close with 36,000 intentional homicides, a crime that has great impunity because out of every 10, only one manages to punish the person responsible for committing it, civil groups warned.

This Tuesday, the organization Common Cause presented the 2019 Report How are we doing in Public Security? and during her presentation María Elena Morera, president of the organization, warned that this year could close with a historical record of 36,000 victims of intentional homicide, being the most insecure year in the history of Mexico since 1980, the year in which they began to occur. release figures on crime incidence.

In this regard, the Secretary of Public Security and Citizen Protection, Alfonso Durazo, said that we must wait until the end of the year to know if it will be the most violent on record.

Another reflection of the insecurity that is registered in the country, Morera pointed out, are the figures registered from December 2018 to October 2019:

32,565 homicide victims, 3% more than in 2018,933 femicides, 17% more than in 2018. 1,565 kidnappings, 13% more than in 2018. 7,915 acts of extortion, 35% more than in 2018.

It may interest you: On AMLO's anniversary, Mexico experienced its most violent day of all 2019

"The country is experiencing the most serious crisis of insecurity on record. The militarization of the country has accelerated, through legal, budgetary and operational channels. In fact, there is no clear line that separates the Armed Forces from the Guard National", highlights the report.

The activist stressed that one year after the government of President Andrés Manuel López Obrador, today we do not live in a safe country and considered that there is no public security strategy that goes against crime directly or indirectly, nor is it being seizing assets from crime.

Morera also criticized the fact that the number of police officers working nationwide is unknown, and stressed that from January 1 to December 2, at least 382 police officers have been killed "without any consequences and it seems that the authorities do not care."

We recommend: With AMLO, the most violent start of the last four six-year terms

More homicides and fewer convictions

While intentional homicides are on the rise, convictions are on the decline, Impunidad Cero warned.

The document indicates that of 33,743 murders committed in 2018, only 3,600 convictions were achieved. This translates to an impunity of 89% in said crime and shows that of 10 murders committed in the country, only one is solved, according to the report Impunity in intentional homicide in Mexico: Report 2019.

"What we see throughout the country is a worrying trend in which each year there are more intentional homicides and fewer convictions," said Irene Tello Arista, director of the organization.

Zero Impunity pointed out that the Mexican State has not managed to overcome the convictions of 2005 (4,800 of 11,246 homicides registered that year).

The report states that the level of impunity explains the lack of deterrent capacity of the Mexican penal system on the growth of violence in the last 10 years.

The impunity of homicides in the states. (Graph: Zero Impunity)

When reviewing the index in the entities, the organization found that 11 register a level of impunity in intentional homicides above 90%.

And the entity where there is greater impunity in intentional homicide is Morelos, with 99.6%, followed by Chiapas (99.0%), Oaxaca (97.8%). In contrast, the states with the least impunity are Yucatán (27.1%), Aguascalientes (45.5%) and Nuevo León (61.0%).

Common Cause denounces omissions of the ASF Common Cause adds another legal resource against the extension of the mandate in BC Intentional homicide increased 70% in four years."


----------



## Firstlast

citlali said:


> I will tell of my experience so that people are warned but will not discuss anything on the forum but you can draw your own conclusions.
> After a nice relaxed day and watching a movie my husband colapsed and died within minutes a little bit past midnight on Wednesday morning.
> As he was having problems breathing and I had an oxigen concentrator we were using for a bronchitis I put him on oxigen and ran accross the street to get my neighbor. They both arrived quickly My husband was dying as the oxmeter was showing a pulse on and off. He was dead by the time cruz roja arrived..
> I opened the door and the gate for the ambuance and asked them to see if my husband was dead. They came in and cheked him and said there was nothing they could do and started writing their report .One of them without my knowledge called the police.
> I always was told not to involve the police so I had no intention to call them.
> Five minutes later 5 policemen from 2 patrullas walked in very rudely without knocking or asking if they coud could in. First violation from their part. The police cannot walk in a house uninvited without an order.
> The 5 of them barged in because the door was opened. They were rude and asked who was faily saying that the other s could not speak. Good thing my neighbor was a cop in CDMX in a previous life and we are friends. so knowing the scenario he and his wife stayed and glued themselves to the officers " left leaving the capitan and 2 officers.
> The Para Medic wrote their report saying it was a natural death and the police told me that because I did not have a doctor there with a death certificate they were going to cordon the room and that no one could enter. They told me to take my valuables out and leave the room. I told them no valuable and stepped out. One officer starting taking pictures of my husband, I objected and asked why they were doing this violating my rights to privacy and they said he had bruises, which was not true.
> 
> They said they were to turn in the photos to the MP treating the bedroom as a crime scene.
> My doctor spoke wit them saying that she could not issue a certifcate until the morning as the clinic that had the certificates was closed at night. t. The para medic said look it is a natural death , here is the report.. They did not want to know anything so my doctor recommended to me over the phone to have my husband taken out to the Funeral home and they would get the certificate in the morning,
> So the funeral home came and took my husband away,, I was furious and felt violated by the police..
> 
> I asked Cruz Roja why they had called the police and they told me it was part of their procedure when there was a death,, I do not know if they only do that in Jalisco because of so many unatural daths or if it is correct in other states.. The private ambulances do not report to the police so if you do not want nasty surprises do not call cruz Roja.
> 
> My husband was alive when I called but he died before they showed up.
> 
> The experience with the police was nasty but could have been worse.. They were nasty to the doctor and harrassed the funeral home allnight until they got the certificate which they could not get at night. My lawyer called me a few time to see if I head from thaem after that..


In the city I I previously resided in in western New York state, all request thru 911 or other means for a request for medical service, an ambulance and police are dispatched. You may know the circumstances for the need for medical service that was not the result of criminal activity. The dispatcher is bound by protocol to dispatch police as well. 

I just recently realized, in MX, the police have to be "invited...given permission" to enter a dwelling or have a search warrant. 

Always, in the back of my mind, was there a hint of mórbida, you could buy your way out of the police involvement?


----------



## AlanMexicali

Firstlast said:


> In the city I I previously resided in in western New York state, all request thru 911 or other means for a request for medical service, an ambulance and police are dispatched. You may know the circumstances for the need for medical service that was not the result of criminal activity. The dispatcher is bound by protocol to dispatch police as well.
> 
> I just recently realized, in MX, the police have to be "invited...given permission" to enter a dwelling or have a search warrant.
> 
> Always, in the back of my mind, was there a hint of mórbida, you could buy your way out of the police involvement?


Police can enter if they have a report of a fatality at a location if the body is still there.


----------



## timmy45

Every single encounter I have had with the local and state police here in Merida has been without question and totally respectful. Unfortunately, so many people in certain communities in the USA have distrust of law enforcement and often get the worst examples of "protect and serve" possible. It is not unique to MX.


----------



## timmy45

AlanMexicali said:


> I have heard this Expat rumor for decades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2019 cerrará con 36,000 homicidios y solo 1 de cada 10 se castiga: reportes
> 
> 
> Causa en Común e Impunidad Cero presentaron informes en los que alertan sobre el alza de los homicidios.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "MEXICO
> 
> 2019 will close with 36,000 homicides and only 1 in 10 is punished: reports
> 
> Common Cause and Zero Impunity presented reports warning of the rise in homicides.
> 
> Tue 03 December 2019 06:20 PM
> 
> ￼2019 is shaping up to close as the most violent year on record in recent decades. (PHOTO: Cuartoscuro)
> 
> @ExpPolitica
> 
> This year could close with 36,000 intentional homicides, a crime that has great impunity because out of every 10, only one manages to punish the person responsible for committing it, civil groups warned.
> 
> This Tuesday, the organization Common Cause presented the 2019 Report How are we doing in Public Security? and during her presentation María Elena Morera, president of the organization, warned that this year could close with a historical record of 36,000 victims of intentional homicide, being the most insecure year in the history of Mexico since 1980, the year in which they began to occur. release figures on crime incidence.
> 
> In this regard, the Secretary of Public Security and Citizen Protection, Alfonso Durazo, said that we must wait until the end of the year to know if it will be the most violent on record.
> 
> Another reflection of the insecurity that is registered in the country, Morera pointed out, are the figures registered from December 2018 to October 2019:
> 
> 32,565 homicide victims, 3% more than in 2018,933 femicides, 17% more than in 2018. 1,565 kidnappings, 13% more than in 2018. 7,915 acts of extortion, 35% more than in 2018.
> 
> It may interest you: On AMLO's anniversary, Mexico experienced its most violent day of all 2019
> 
> "The country is experiencing the most serious crisis of insecurity on record. The militarization of the country has accelerated, through legal, budgetary and operational channels. In fact, there is no clear line that separates the Armed Forces from the Guard National", highlights the report.
> 
> The activist stressed that one year after the government of President Andrés Manuel López Obrador, today we do not live in a safe country and considered that there is no public security strategy that goes against crime directly or indirectly, nor is it being seizing assets from crime.
> 
> Morera also criticized the fact that the number of police officers working nationwide is unknown, and stressed that from January 1 to December 2, at least 382 police officers have been killed "without any consequences and it seems that the authorities do not care."
> 
> We recommend: With AMLO, the most violent start of the last four six-year terms
> 
> More homicides and fewer convictions
> 
> While intentional homicides are on the rise, convictions are on the decline, Impunidad Cero warned.
> 
> The document indicates that of 33,743 murders committed in 2018, only 3,600 convictions were achieved. This translates to an impunity of 89% in said crime and shows that of 10 murders committed in the country, only one is solved, according to the report Impunity in intentional homicide in Mexico: Report 2019.
> 
> "What we see throughout the country is a worrying trend in which each year there are more intentional homicides and fewer convictions," said Irene Tello Arista, director of the organization.
> 
> Zero Impunity pointed out that the Mexican State has not managed to overcome the convictions of 2005 (4,800 of 11,246 homicides registered that year).
> 
> The report states that the level of impunity explains the lack of deterrent capacity of the Mexican penal system on the growth of violence in the last 10 years.
> 
> The impunity of homicides in the states. (Graph: Zero Impunity)
> 
> When reviewing the index in the entities, the organization found that 11 register a level of impunity in intentional homicides above 90%.
> 
> And the entity where there is greater impunity in intentional homicide is Morelos, with 99.6%, followed by Chiapas (99.0%), Oaxaca (97.8%). In contrast, the states with the least impunity are Yucatán (27.1%), Aguascalientes (45.5%) and Nuevo León (61.0%).
> 
> Common Cause denounces omissions of the ASF Common Cause adds another legal resource against the extension of the mandate in BC Intentional homicide increased 70% in four years."
> 
> Read on the internet, must be true


----------



## citlali

timmy45 said:


> Every single encounter I have had with the local and state police here in Merida has been without question and totally respectful. Unfortunately, so many people in certain communities in the USA have distrust of law enforcement and often get the worst examples of "protect and serve" possible. It is not unique to MX.


I am French and Mexican and I have never distrust the police . I distrust the police after 20years in Mexico not because of rumors but because of personal experiences and that of some Mexican friends. Everything is wonderful here until it is not and when it goes wrong believe me it is not pleasant. I have lived in Mexico for 20 years and I just see why you cannot trust the police.

On an aside. the man who helped me with my problem was a ex CDMX cop and the first Mexican who came to see me after my husband dies was also an ex cop so I do not think all cops are bad but when there is a bad captain the guys under him have to follow orders and it can be really ugly. My doctor got scared.. SO trust the cops all you want, I will stay away from there whenever it is possible and I do not want them to come uninvited on my property.


----------



## citlali

AlanMexicali said:


> Police can enter if they have a report of a fatality at a location if the body is still there.


Well you disagree with my doctor and a lawyer and a judge so I guess you do not a whole lot. I have a friend who is a lawyer and her husband is a judge and they both told me that cops cannot enter a property ifthe death is not a violent death or a crime. We spendthe day investigating what went one from differnt angles and tomorrow we are going to do some more of that.. ..


----------



## citlali

In the city I I previously resided in in western New York state, all request thru 911 or other means for a request for medical service, an ambulance and police are dispatched. You may know the circumstances for the need for medical service that was not the result of criminal activity. The dispatcher is bound by protocol to dispatch police as well. es, You are not in the States and the law is differnt here. Cruz Verde is government Cruz Roja is a charitable orgamization. so they do not have to dispatch anything.

Who cares about what it is in the States in Mexico the cops have to have an orden to enter a property. It is illegal for them to enter even if the doors to the property are open. That is what I was told by lawyers and what I have always heard.

I would not have given these guys a penny, They wanted to know where my things of valors where and told me to get them out.. I took my phone charger just in case.. The minutes the body was removed the cops were asked to leave and they had to leave.


----------



## citlali

Firstlast said:


> In the city I I previously resided in in western New York state, all request thru 911 or other means for a request for medical service, an ambulance and police are dispatched. You may know the circumstances for the need for medical service that was not the result of criminal activity. The dispatcher is bound by protocol to dispatch police as well.
> 
> I just recently realized, in MX, the police have to be "invited...given permission" to enter a dwelling or have a search warrant.
> 
> Always, in the back of my mind, was there a hint of mórbida, you could buy your way out of the police involvement?


Yes you can and then they can also turn it against you if they want more and they you have commited a felonie.. So be careful when you speak of mordida. 

In my case it is obvious they were after money they try their best to scare me into giving them money but , they would have had to kill me to get any money, I was not in the mood to give in and play their game.


----------



## surabi

timmy45 said:


> Every single encounter I have had with the local and state police here in Merida has been without question and totally respectful.


That's wonderful, but anecdotal experience is not the way to judge systemic behavior. And trying to negate Citlali's experience, just because you have never had issues with the Mexiccan cops, is rude.

Several years ago, I was driving home one day and passed my friend's house, where I saw her outside, crying. I of course stopped and asked her what was wrong and it turned out she had discovered her downstairs renter dead on the floor of his studio apartment in a pool of blood an hour earlier. He had obviously fallen and hit his head on the cement floor. No signs of forced entry or any struggle. He was a Vietnam vet who still had nightmares about his time there, and drank quite a bit.

This friend is a very emotional person to start with, and she had discovered him after realizing she hadn't seen him for a day and he wasn't answering her knock on the door, so she used her key and found him dead.

The police said she had to come in and make a statement. Their office was in a town a half-hour's drive away, and as she was a total mess, I offered to go with her.

The police were relentless in trying to get her to say he was a friend of hers (they had found some marijuana in his apartment and seemed to trying to connect her to the drugs somehow, asking of she had supplied him with the drugs) and she kept saying, no, he just rented the apartment, she knew him, but they didn't hang out socially or anything. The cops kept asking her why she was crying if he wasn't a friend. They didn't seem to comprehend why she would be emotionally disraught at finding her renter dead in a pool of blood.

All of their questioning seemed to have nothing to do with this guy or how he had died, but was only concerned with trying to connect her to his death or the drugs.

To top it all off, they had driven us to the station with them, as opposed to letting us drive there ourselves, and when we had asked how we would get back to our town, and they had assured us they would drive us back. But when they were finished with their questioning, they just reneged on that.


----------



## Jreboll

surabi said:


> That's wonderful, but anecdotal experience is not the way to judge systemic behavior. And trying to negate Citlali's experience, just because you have never had issues with the Mexiccan cops, is rude.
> 
> Several years ago, I was driving home one day and passed my friend's house, where I saw her outside, crying. I of course stopped and asked her what was wrong and it turned out she had discovered her downstairs renter dead on the floor of his studio apartment in a pool of blood an hour earlier. He had obviously fallen and hit his head on the cement floor. No signs of forced entry or any struggle. He was a Vietnam vet who still had nightmares about his time there, and drank quite a bit.
> 
> This friend is a very emotional person to start with, and she had discovered him after realizing she hadn't seen him for a day and he wasn't answering her knock on the door, so she used her key and found him dead.
> 
> The police said she had to come in and make a statement. Their office was in a town a half-hour's drive away, and as she was a total mess, I offered to go with her.
> 
> The police were relentless in trying to get her to say he was a friend of hers (they had found some marijuana in his apartment and seemed to trying to connect her to the drugs somehow, asking of she had supplied him with the drugs) and she kept saying, no, he just rented the apartment, she knew him, but they didn't hang out socially or anything. The cops kept asking her why she was crying if he wasn't a friend. They didn't seem to comprehend why she would be emotionally disraught at finding her renter dead in a pool of blood.
> 
> All of their questioning seemed to have nothing to do with this guy or how he had died, but was only concerned with trying to connect her to his death or the drugs.
> 
> To top it all off, they had driven us to the station with them, as opposed to letting us drive there ourselves, and when we had asked how we would get back to our town, and they had assured us they would drive us back. But when they were finished with their questioning, they just reneged on that.


I’d be interested to know if Mexican detectives go through a formal training program on how to solve crimes or do they just “play it by ear”. How do they qualify or is it based on who you know. Is there accountability?
Not that these problems are unique to Mexico because they also occur in the US.


----------



## AnneLM

Comparing to the US and other countries is irrelevant and not an appropriate response to Citlali's situation. The point is not to help potential expats decide whether to live in Mexico vs. the US, though it may be the final straw for those on the fence. It is to give practical, experience-based cautionary advice to those who may end up in a similar situation.


----------



## eastwind

AnneLM said:


> The point is not to help potential expats decide whether to live in Mexico vs. the US, though it may be the final straw for those on the fence.


Well, it may not be the point, but hopefully they're reading (instead of just posting a bunch of general questions without having done any research). 

And if they are reading, then it's worth pointing out that the situation in the US, while different, is also not great. Otherwise they might compare an idealized concept of the US vs a reality-based narrative of Mexico, which would be unbalanced.

I have fortunately never been stopped while driving, so I have never paid mordida. For any other situation, my thinking is it is best for Expats to get a Mexican lawyer involved to intermediate. You pay the lawyer their fee, and don't ask about their expenses in fixing the problem. As far as you're concerned, they just asked nicely. More expensive that way, but much safer for all concerned. If those of you with more Mexican experience disagree, I'd be interested in your reasoning.


----------



## citlali

I had acouple of nasty experiences with the cops in the last 20 years. Once in an accident that I helped happened when I put on the breaks because a doberman crossed in front of me. The man behind me twho was folollowing too closely swirved and an idiot driving twice the speed limit hit him. The man behind me was injured and although I did not hit anyone or be hit I stopped to help the injurred man , the 3 of us ended up 2 days in jaill and yes I have legal aid...

the other experience was the last one.

The detectives are not part of the security police , they are part of the District attorney s office and many of them are lawyers. They are part of what is now called Fiscal and before Ministerio Publico.

In the case of the woman finding someone dead.. it is trouble because it was a violnt death and the police has to be called and then God help you.. I can see whay she would be crying.. The police has no mercy, they came into my house illegally, did not say hello or good bye, no sorry for your lost. etc.. their first instinct was to set me up for money..and then tell me they were only trying to help.. When you get into these situation it is scary and you have good reaons to be scared.. Anyone denying it has no clue how it works in Mexico.

The friend who is helping me is an attorney, her husband a judge who was the head of Forensics in Guadaljara and they are determined to try to change some of the procedure to protect people in the community who do not understand the system. The Funeral home is helping, the docotr is helping.. We have to remove the means for the police to do their intimidation. It is really a serious matter.

I would not consider not living in Mexico because this is now my country and this is where I want to live but if I can help change something, I will help.. I am a citizen , I vote and I have rights here.
I am not considering moving back to the States or France which I could do. So be it.

People saying that they had good experiences with the police are lucky but do not imagine that this cannot be changed in seconds and at that point you better speak flunt Spanish and know how to defend yourself or keep your head in the sand and pray you can go through life here without bad experiences.

Hearing that story of the womn discovering a body, gives me the shiver because I know how the police thinks.. They are poorly trained , lazy with paperwork, and many are predators, do not ever forget that.


----------



## citlali

Getting a ticket or getting hit for mordida while driving has nothing to do with this. First they are probably transitos , not the other police or Federales which are one step above the transitos or the Municiapla polce or State police. I have been stopped many time and hit for mordida.. that is a differnt animal

By the way do not think that mordida works every time in case of an accident with injurry and that can backfire on you big time as well. DO not play with something you do not understand. Have a lawyer do it and hopefully the lawyer knows what to do.. My experience is that insurrance lwyers are at the bottom of the barrel as far as lawyer and they protect the company not your interest, if there are people injurred get a private lawyer you trust on top of the insurrance lawyer.

Mexican tanks are ugly filthy places . You sleep on a ciment bunk with a thin blanket with a toilet, filthy toilet , in the middle of the room and no privacy and no water. You are lucky if they do not brink drunks or drug addicts that will get sick all over the place on top of it....That I saw on the men side. The women side was not as crowded so I was lucky..


----------



## citlali

AlanMexicali said:


> Police can enter if they have a report of a fatality at a location if the body is still there.


In Jalisco only if it is a violent death according to laywers and doctors and why would cruz roja report natural death to cruz roja and why would police show up unless they were up to no good.


----------



## surabi

Years ago when I was living in rental house in Sayulita, I came home one day to find quite the scene in front of my house.
A family of tourists, a man, his wife, their grown son, daughter-in-law and their baby had been trudging up the hill to the place they were staying when grandpa dropped dead of a heart attack. 

He was lying in the street, covered with something, his wife was sitting on my front step, in shock, and they were waiting for the police to arrive. I don't know who had been called first, but it obviously wasn't a violent death. All I know is that the coroner couldn't pick up the body until the police arrived and made a report.

All told, the guy's body was laying on the street for at least 2 hours, which was hard on the family. I asked his wife if she needed anything, or would like to come in and sit down, rather than on the concrete step, but she said no, it was okay. I made her a cup of tea and brought her a blanket to wrap up in anyway, which she accepted (she was in shock and shivering, even though it wasn't at all cold out).

So, Citlali, in a case like that- no violence, person obviously dead and beyond saving, who should be called first?


----------



## MangoTango

Gosh - ya know - if you and I were walking along and all of a sudden you collapsed to the ground - I'm not sure you would want ME to declare you were dead.
I've got no medical training to speak of - unless you want to count my boy scout first aid merit badge from 55 years ago OR the basic first aid class I took after my first Mexican earthquake experience. Don't people get revived sometimes ?

I would either call an ambulance OR I would call a taxi - and probably ask for you to be taken to Cruz Roja.


----------



## citlali

surabi said:


> Years ago when I was living in rental house in Sayulita, I came home one day to find quite the scene in front of my house.
> A family of tourists, a man, his wife, their grown son, daughter-in-law and their baby had been trudging up the hill to the place they were staying when grandpa dropped dead of a heart attack.
> 
> He was lying in the street, covered with something, his wife was sitting on my front step, in shock, and they were waiting for the police to arrive. I don't know who had been called first, but it obviously wasn't a violent death. All I know is that the coroner couldn't pick up the body until the police arrived and made a report.
> 
> All told, the guy's body was laying on the street for at least 2 hours, which was hard on the family. I asked his wife if she needed anything, or would like to come in and sit down, rather than on the concrete step, but she said no, it was okay. I made her a cup of tea and brought her a blanket to wrap up in anyway, which she accepted (she was in shock and shivering, even though it wasn't at all cold out).
> 
> So, Citlali, in a case like that- no violence, person obviously dead and beyond saving, who should be called first?


A doctor should be called not the police then the doctor declares the person dead and ask the family what funeral arrangements they want to make. The police should not be called they are not qualified to say a person is dead and they only make problems .I was always taught do not call the police in case of natural death , they only make problems and sure enough that is exactly what they did. This week to another person found herself in the same situation thanks to Red Cross and the idiots sent the body to the morgue for autopsy.. when that person suddenly droped dead in his house.


----------



## citlali

you got that one right Mango , I had the oximeter and I kept bitching at the battery going dead when it was my husband who was dying.. You do not want anybody to declare you dead. The ambulance told me they would not pick up a body but they can declare you dead and can call a doctor to do a certificate . , I a case like that I would think the police could not play came like they do at night at someone s home so I guess it could be ok.. b. They were taking pictures like crazy of my husband talking about bruises and the doctor said of cause he was going a little purple , he was dead...She basically told me the police had no clue and the Red Cross said the same thing. They told the police we are the para medics , you do not have to try to tell us it was not a natural death..

Again do not call the police if it is a natural death..


----------



## Takingiteasy

Citali wrote:

" you better speak flunt Spanish and know how to defend yourself or keep your head in the sand and pray you can go through life here without bad experiences." 

Now I assume you mean know what to say and not to say rather than fighting physically. Do you have any rights with the police? I mean real rights not something written that is ignored. I assume if they hit someone with a fist and that person hit back, they would be facing major criminal charges? Or do they just hunt them down and shoot them? 

I know in the states its rare for cops to illegally assault people but I've heard those stories in mx. My experiences with the policia have been few and pleasant but I've heard of robberies and worse, we all have.


----------



## surabi

Takingiteasy said:


> I know in the states its rare for cops to illegally assault people...


Oh yeah? Ask black folks how rare it is.


----------



## citlali

ask people fronorth Africa or africa in France how rare it is.. sme everywhere but the Mexican polce as added plus... they are poorly paid not well trained and feel very powerful with their uniform.. There are good people amongst them like in any grop but the bad apples can lead the good ones into doing bad things.. Same all over.. Some are also very corrupt and then watch out.

I speak fluent Spanish so the language is not a problem and I am nationalized as well so every bit helps. You have real rights but they will be trampled and eventually if you have money and decent lawyers and know the right people you will prevail otherwise forget it..


----------



## citlali

citlali said:


> ask people fronorth Africa or africa in France how rare it is.. sme everywhere but the Mexican polce as added plus... they are poorly paid not well trained and feel very powerful with their uniform.. There are good people amongst them like in any grop but the bad apples can lead the good ones into doing bad things.. Same all over.. Some are also very corrupt and then watch out.
> 
> I speak fluent Spanish so the language is not a problem and I am nationalized as well so every bit helps. You have real rights but they will be trampled and eventually if you have money and decent lawyers and know the right people you will prevail otherwise forget it..


This was my second bad experience with cop , in the first one I spend one night 2 days in jail... another sory after an accident where I was not hit and did not hit ayone but was part of..


----------



## Jreboll

One thing for sure, if you’re in a small town where generations have grown up together, you never have to worry about cops.


----------



## Takingiteasy

I've seen some bad conduct from the gendarmes in france, mostly on video. The people I know in the states do not talk about bad experiences with cops and I assume they haven't had any. But there are bad ones in any group and there are cities in the usa where it seems the cops feel more free to swing a club. In the states, 99% of the time if there is trouble with the cops, the people could have avoided it, imo. Doing things like screaming in the cops face, not following instructions, making sudden moves, etc, these things can inflame a situation and lead sometimes to a bad outcome.

Sure there are bad cops everywhere, some departments do not tolerate it and try to root out the bad ones, some are corrupt. Its up to the citizens to vote out the bad politicians and demand a clean up. I don't defend all cops but if we didn't have any cops, then the cartels or the mafia would rule. Instead of cops who are supposed to follow rules and can be reported and arrested if they break them, you would have local thugs extorting business, charging a "tax" on each home and so on. If they decide to do bad things to your wife, you have to argue with a gun because they obey no laws. I prefer the present system.

I have learned a ton on these forums. If I am in a fender bender or some problem in mexico I will not call the police and its probably better to offer money to make them go away even if not your fault. I try to keep a low profile and have not even been asked for a mordida


----------



## citlali

Maybe white people do not speak of bad experiences with cops in the US but I think you would have a very differnt take if you were black.
DO not offer money unless you feel you absolutely have too. Mordida is an art and if this is not what they are after, you can get in trouble.
I keep a low profile but sometimes you are in situations where you have no choice. The cops showed up at my house ,, I did not attract them or have a weird behavour.. It can happen to anyone to be at the right place at the wrong time, believe me. So remember they cannot enter your house without a court order. Do not open the door to them if they are at your door without a court order.. Id they are in without you having invited them kick them out, tell them to get a court order.


----------



## Takingiteasy

I will keep that in mind. A guy told me he was caught drunk sitting in his car by sma cops late at night, offered a usa $50 and got to go home. You say there is an art to it, I would wait to find out what the problem was, what I did wrong or suspected of and hope they suggest a way to make it vanish. Do you just pull out money and kind of hold it in your hand, do you ask how much? I would probably try saying something like "is there a way I can help you" and hope that works

The black people I know in the states have not said anything about bad experiences with cops. What I have seen is people get drunk, get rowdy, get arrested. Or for stealing, assault, and so on. If you are polite with cops, follow reasonable requests, do not scream, fight, try to run, etc it will go much better for you. They may still arrest you or give a ticket but they will be professional about it if you have acted right. And more times than not, a borderline situation can be smoothed over with a warning or something.

Each case is different, there are cops prejudiced against blacks or latinos, I'm sure. As well as some biased against whites or asian, or whatever reason. One good thing or bad depending on circumstances is they seldom ask for a bribe. With cameras everywhere, any wrongful action by a cop can quickly be detected and they can go to jail too


----------



## citlali

yes mordida is rare and when I say rare I never had a cop in France or the US hit me for money. never.
On the other hand the blacks you know may have been lucky. I lived in the South and was married to a SOutherner and my husband who was white was there on the bridge in Selma and he was still crying when he talked about what happened ..
My nephew is a therapist, went to school in France in the public schools where in that district there were many kids from North Africa so much so that my nephew has Arabic intonations when he speaks and his best friend is an immigrant from Marrueco.. The kid came from a very poor family but was smart and now earns big money at the stock exchange. They both were stopped by cops and were harrassed telling them they were thieves because they were too young to drive a mercedes and that for kids who barely knew how to read they were sure living above their means and so on.. That was soly based on the looks.. My nephew is from Spanish origin not North Africa and he was appalled how he and his friends were treated..
I think you have to be an immigrant or a black person who got in that type of situation to understand. My indigenous friends tell me that not understanding how cops treat minorities if the priviledge of the rich.. I think they are right. The darker you are and the most chances you have to understand that.


----------



## surabi

Funny story- a guy I know was driving his van back up to the US and was getting tired, so figured he'd pull off the road and get a few hours sleep before driving on. He pulled off the highway and parked a little ways down a country road with fields all around and lay down in the back of the van. 

Just as he fell asleep, there's banging on the door of the van and someone shouting. He got up and it was a young Mexican cop, asking him what he was doing. He explained. The cop told him he couldn't park there. He said, Look sir, I'm not bothering anyone. I'm going to sleep for 3 or 4 hrs and get back on my way- I'm too sleepy to drive right now- I'd be a danger on the road. 

Cop tells him again he can't park there. Guy says, Does your mother know this is what you do with your time? She probably thinks you're out there catching bad guys and helping people- what would she think if she knew her son was spending his time as a cop hassling someone who's minding his own business and just trying to sleep? Would she be proud of you?

The cop left.


----------



## eastwind

That was a very high-risk maneuver!


----------



## trekmanone

citlali said:


> I will tell of my experience so that people are warned but will not discuss anything on the forum but you can draw your own conclusions.
> After a nice relaxed day and watching a movie my husband colapsed and died within minutes a little bit past midnight on Wednesday morning.
> As he was having problems breathing and I had an oxigen concentrator we were using for a bronchitis I put him on oxigen and ran accross the street to get my neighbor. They both arrived quickly My husband was dying as the oxmeter was showing a pulse on and off. He was dead by the time cruz roja arrived..
> I opened the door and the gate for the ambuance and asked them to see if my husband was dead. They came in and cheked him and said there was nothing they could do and started writing their report .One of them without my knowledge called the police.
> I always was told not to involve the police so I had no intention to call them.
> Five minutes later 5 policemen from 2 patrullas walked in very rudely without knocking or asking if they coud could in. First violation from their part. The police cannot walk in a house uninvited without an order.
> The 5 of them barged in because the door was opened. They were rude and asked who was faily saying that the other s could not speak. Good thing my neighbor was a cop in CDMX in a previous life and we are friends. so knowing the scenario he and his wife stayed and glued themselves to the officers " left leaving the capitan and 2 officers.
> The Para Medic wrote their report saying it was a natural death and the police told me that because I did not have a doctor there with a death certificate they were going to cordon the room and that no one could enter. They told me to take my valuables out and leave the room. I told them no valuable and stepped out. One officer starting taking pictures of my husband, I objected and asked why they were doing this violating my rights to privacy and they said he had bruises, which was not true.
> 
> They said they were to turn in the photos to the MP treating the bedroom as a crime scene.
> My doctor spoke wit them saying that she could not issue a certifcate until the morning as the clinic that had the certificates was closed at night. t. The para medic said look it is a natural death , here is the report.. They did not want to know anything so my doctor recommended to me over the phone to have my husband taken out to the Funeral home and they would get the certificate in the morning,
> So the funeral home came and took my husband away,, I was furious and felt violated by the police..
> 
> I asked Cruz Roja why they had called the police and they told me it was part of their procedure when there was a death,, I do not know if they only do that in Jalisco because of so many unatural daths or if it is correct in other states.. The private ambulances do not report to the police so if you do not want nasty surprises do not call cruz Roja.
> 
> My husband was alive when I called but he died before they showed up.
> 
> The experience with the police was nasty but could have been worse.. They were nasty to the doctor and harrassed the funeral home allnight until they got the certificate which they could not get at night. My lawyer called me a few time to see if I head from thaem after that..


It is true, like in Canada and USA, that hospitals have to reports deaths to the police. This forum discussion is a police warning discussion, not a Cruz Rojo warning discussion.


----------



## citlali

this is not the US or Canada , only violent death and homicide need to be reported.. I am not a dingbat, I said what I said after speaking to a lawyer..SO stop burrying your head in the sand or going by what the laws are in a different country.

You can also wait to be in the same situation and see what happens when the police comes to your house..unannounced and illegally.
I just received a pm from someone whose brother died of a heartattack, the police came in and only the Mexican girl friend was there so not family... the house was cordonned off for 4 months. before the family could enter it. all because no one was there to defend the property and the police entered illegally,


----------



## AlanMexicali

Police can enter a house where a body is reported to be if there is no Dr. present with an official death certificate. I know it is not illegal. I know the lawyer is BSing you. The funeral home will not move the body without a signed death certificate. The death certificate can be registered later at the government office while the body is at the funeral home. The police DO NOT have to take your word for it it was natural cause and not enter to investigate for themselves, obviously.


----------



## citlali

My lawyer is married to the ex director of forrensic and is a judge, he says NO they cannot. The funeral home came to get my husband when my doctor told them to come. The death certificate was issued at 8 oclock in the morning. My husband died at 8 minutes past midnight the ambulance was there 20 minutes later and the cops 5 mn after the ambualance.

Alan I am speaking of what happened last week not some internet knowledge. The funeral home does not need to hear from the police to remove a body who died of natural death.
PLEASE STOP SAYING THINGS THAT ARE INCORRECT AT LEAST IN JALISCO. My lawyer, her husband , a judge, my doctor and the funeral homes words and actions proe you have no idea of what your are talking about.

The natural deathreport came from the ambulance not from me and the doctor called the funeral home to remove the body without any report because she wanted to prevent the cops from cordoning the house. The lawyer is a friend of mine and my husband, she has no reason to BS me because there is nothing in it for her. she is probonno.. I help her in another business she has and she gives me money to help people in Chiapas. I travel with her and her husnads, we are friends.. no reson to BS.. whatsoever.


----------



## MangoTango

My wife recently passed of natural causes in a hospital. The doctor left to attend other patients. Someone (not me) called the funeral home to come get her body. They showed up maybe a half hour later, loaded her into a van and we drove to the funeral home where I settled some paperwork. Her death certificate, issued days later, lists the date, time and place of her death and the only signature is from a lawyer at the civil registry.


----------



## AlanMexicali

Don't give me that I checked the internet crap! I have been at the house where both my mother in law and father in law have died, he in Dec. and know the proceedure very well in Mexico. Your lawyer or you are wrong. With no death certificate or Dr. present the police can enter to investigate because they do not need to take your word for it was natural cause, obviously. The funeral home both times refused to move the body until they saw the death certificate. Ambulance drivers are not Dr.s or can they fill out death certificates. Your story sounds wierd.


----------



## citlali

Thank you Mango and the police did not show up either.. Imagine if the police was called every time there was a natural death.. They already do not seem to go after too many criminals that would be the greatest excuse for doing nothing. Here 2 patrol cars showed up, but try to call them when someone is breaking in... 
I my case, the doctor is a friend of the owners of the funeral home and the owner is the one that handled the call they were there 10 minutes later. The doctor told me the cops were scaring her and we had to remove the body as fast as possible . The cops then harrassed the funeral home owner all night for the death certificate that could not be issued until 8 that morning because the office that issues them was closed.


----------



## citlali

well the police heard it was a natural death from the ambulance not from me.
The doctor called the funeral home and told them to remov the body and the body was removed 10 minutes later.
That is how it was done in CHapala on the 30th of March.
Death certificate was issued the following deay and my husband was cremated at 4pm that day. Afterthe body was removed the cops left and that was the end of it. No they do not have the right to enter a home without an order, that is also an important point.
I only spoke to my friend the lawyer because I want to go with her to speak with the Red cross director, the director of the Municipal clinic and the president of Chapala.


----------



## AlanMexicali

MangoTango said:


> My wife recently passed of natural causes in a hospital. The doctor left to attend other patients. Someone (not me) called the funeral home to come get her body. They showed up maybe a half hour later, loaded her into a van and we drove to the funeral home where I settled some paperwork. Her death certificate, issued days later, lists the date, time and place of her death and the only signature is from a lawyer at the civil registry.


The official death certificate is issued from the local state government office but the Dr.'s hand filled out death certificate is filled out on the spot and signed. The hospital took care if it and you later got an official state government registered one. Here official extra copies cost $140.00 each.


----------



## citlali

The doctor never came to my house
Here the death certificates are 180 pesos but if you have a package and are a US citizen the funeral home includes 10 and they declare the death at the US consulate. My husband was a cremated as a Mexican citizen so none of that applied.


----------



## citlali

My neighbor lost her husband in the same exact conditions 6 months ago but during the day. The cops never showed up.. According to the Funeral home they show up and neither did the doctor. The body was removed without death certificate.


----------



## Takingiteasy

Lets not fight, what is true in one city or state may not be true in another. Can we acknowledge that? People have been through trauma and are recovering. What is written in law might be carried out differently depending on where you are so everyone in the thread could be right


----------



## citlali

Who is fighting? 
Yes the interpretention of the law may vary and deals ae made between clinics,. ambulances authorities to simplify things, we all know this.
My posting was to point out to be careful once you call an ambulance., at night if you are alone because if you live in Chapala chances are that the police will show up if someone dies and it gets touchy if you are alone. It is rarely happening to the Mexican families because the cops know a lot of them and they also know that there will be a bunch of people , it happens mostly to the foreigners. The funeral begged me to make a denuncia because many people are robbed, extortionned and end up in difficult situations that do not need to be. I am not going to make any denincia as it would have to be against the police and I do not want to have anything to do with them.
My intention is to forget about the police as it will not change but to have some of the procedures changed so close some of the loophole the police is using to harass people in our area.
If the police is wonderful in your area and there is not problem more power to you. I know it is not so in the Chapala area and I am going to go to work to see if some simples changes can be made. I have a lawyer to help me not to make any money but to be able to quote the law correctly to the people I am making appointments with.Laws may be differt I do not know.


----------



## eastwind

Takingiteasy said:


> Lets not fight, what is true in one city or state may not be true in another. Can we acknowledge that? People have been through trauma and are recovering. What is written in law might be carried out differently depending on where you are so everyone in the thread could be right


100% agree. Mexico equals YMMV. Everyone on this thread knows that.


----------



## Jreboll

When coming to Mexico sometimes you have to set aside the American mindset and use common sense instead. It doesn’t mean doing something illegal it’s just recognizing that sometimes laws are not set in stone but are bendable and doing so will not bring the dire consequences that doing so would cause in the US.


----------



## citlali

Mexico is not that differnt from other countries when it comes to going around the law or let s say being flexible-
In France they passed a law in 2008 that remains had to be disposed of in the cemetaryor( or sent back to the country of origin) where there is a place called Jardin des Souvenirs and where people can scatter or bury the remains of their loved one.. So foreigners get upset when they cannot scatter the ashes where they had planned.

I do not know anyone in my family that went there.. People register in the Jardin des Souvenirs and do whatever they want with the ashes.. Mexico is not the only place where laws are flexible.


----------



## MangoTango

citlali said:


> Mexico is not that differnt from other countries when it comes to going around the law or let s say being flexible-
> In France they passed a law in 2008 that remains had to be disposed of in the cemetaryor( or sent back to the country of origin) where there is a place called Jardin des Souvenirs and where people can scatter or bury the remains of their loved one.. So foreigners get upset when they cannot scatter the ashes where they had planned.
> 
> I do not know anyone in my family that went there.. People register in the Jardin des Souvenirs and do whatever they want with the ashes.. Mexico is not the only place where laws are flexible.


If there _are_ any such laws in Mexico I'm afraid I will have to claim ignorance. I have an small outside 'foyer' with windows on three sides. Years ago we planted a thin evergreen in the center. I have placed my wife's ashes as well as those of three of the four cats we brought from the US in the ground under what is now a pretty tall tree. I have a little stool and I sit out there a lot. Often times our remaining three cats will sit inside looking out the windows along with me.


----------



## citlali

Al I can tell you is that a friend split the ashes of her partner in 4 . She scattered her fourth in the Lake here , that was a few years ago so if there is such a law it is not enforced.. No one came around to find out what she did with the ashes.
I received my husband s ashes un a bag because the urn was too small so right now the bag is on my desk .. I am not too worry about ayone coming to check ot what happened to them and I ll do something when I get around to it..
Right now the paperwork has to be done about all kinds of things, add France in the work and it is no fun as you know..


----------



## eastwind

Some people like to do something with the ashes on the one-year anniversary.


----------



## MangoTango

It is hard to believe that this Monday will be 6 months already. I'll be honest - for me some of the hardest days have been very recent. I am still slowly giving away things that only my wife used (especially in the kitchen). 

It was written in both of our wills that our ashes were to be sprinkled over our favorite dive site. The first week after her death I found some last minute instructions from her changing what the will said and that is pretty much what I have done. It was smart of her. I sit outside and talk with her every time something even slightly interesting happens. I probably didn't talk this much with her when she was alive...

Fortunately (for me) we had a little time to make some changes before her death. But it really wasn't until the doctors said it was only a short matter of time that I really took it seriously. We could have/ should have done more but we were given some bad advice. Hopefully that is all straightened out at this point.


----------



## citlali

Yes death is final and there is no answering the questions that were never asked,, Boy am I aware of that now..


----------



## citlali

I have 2 more confirmation that the police cannot enter any property for any reason including violent death without an order. This is from city officials.
Next week I have an appointment with the director of the Municipal clinic and the liaison with the community regardin what happened and after that I will have an appointment with the presidente municipal.
Cruz Roja confirmed that they called the police every time thre is a death. I am going to try to see if there is a recording of what the driver said that night.. I am going to get to the bottom of this and demand changes.. Let s see what happens if anything..


----------



## ojosazules11

I haven’t been on the forum for awhile, and had not realized Bob (aka Hound Dog) had passed. My heartfelt condolences, Citlali. I always enjoyed the banter when he was active on this forum. As a doctor, I always discuss with my patients that a normal grief process for someone close (partner, parent, etc.) generally takes about a year. Not that you are incapacitated for a year, but that it takes that long to adjust to a “new normal”. Seeing or hearing something and wanting to share it, waking up in the morning… alone. As you say, everyone grieves differently. When I lost my mom, I definitely grieved, but somehow thought I’d escape that year of grief. Then at the 11 month mark I started feeling a lifting of my spirits and it hit me how much grief I truly had been carrying around since she had died, even though I believed I was doing just fine. And I was doing OK, but the underlying grief was still there colouring everything else. Of course the grief doesn’t just go away after a year, especially when you’ve lost your life partner, but for most people it becomes less intense and pervasive. Mi pésame más profundo en este tiempo.


----------



## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> I haven’t been on the forum for awhile, and had not realized Bob (aka Hound Dog) had passed. My heartfelt condolences. I always enjoyed the banter when he was active on this forum. As a doctor, I always discuss with my patients that a normal grief process for someone close (partner, parent, etc.) generally takes about a year. Not that o you are incapacitated for a year, but that it takes that long to adjust to a “new normal”. Seeing or hearing something and wanting to share it, waking up in the morning… alone. As you say, everyone grieves differently. When I lost my mom, I definitely grieved, but somehow thought I’d escape that year of grief. Then at the 11 month mark I started feeling a lifting of my spirits and it hit me how much grief I truly had been carrying around since she had died, even though I believed I was doing just fine. And I was doing OK, but the underlying grief was still there colouring everything else. Of course the grief doesn’t just go away after a year, especially when you’ve lost your life partner, but for most people it becomes less intense and pervasive. Mi pésame más profundo en este tiempo.


Thanks for sharing your professional and personal knowledge of the grieving process with us.


----------



## ojosazules11

I also commend you on your determination to have the Red Cross procedure changed. How traumatic for you and others in one of the most difficult moments of your life. This makes me even more determined to “homologar mi título médico” when I actually become resident in Mexico. At this point I’m still back and forth, although my Mexican husband spends 5-6 months at our Mexican home. I’m planning on getting residency before I actually retire in a couple of years, primarily so I can start the bureaucratic process of having my medical license validated in Mexico. Apparently it takes about a year. I’m not planning on having an active medical practice in Mexico, but I want the professional authority that comes with that license.


----------



## citlali

I think that getting your license is a smart thing..
I am now finish investigating.. The Red Cross called the police without warning me and let the police in as well and 2 different groups of policemen came in without permission. There is no need for the police to come in on a natural death and they have no right to enter a private property without a warrant.. period even if it is a murder. They do it all the time but it counts against them later if there is a trial.
I put all the events together according to what the Municipal judge told m to do and this week I am writting my request to speak to the Municipal present with police and red cross present. I want the police to be told by the director of securite they cannot enter homes without warrant, since they only do it at night , that will cut way back their activite and I want Red Cross to tell people they have to call the police,,, if they really have to do it.. We will see what the President says.. The Red Cross told me it was not up to them to declare what kind of death it was although they had no problems telling me my husband was dead and told that to the police in front of me as well...
I think there is lots of incompetence to say the least. After that I want the rules to be puvblished..
Let s see what happens if anything. WHatever the result it will be published one way or the other..

In CHapala death certificate cannot be issued until 9 in the morning and cannot be issued after 8 at night which is when the police decides they must have it and use that as an excuse to harrass people. The funeral home and the clinic told me that I had between 12 and 24 hours to get it so there was no urgency that night for the funeral home to remove the body except for the threats of the police...


----------



## citlali

Thank you for your condoleances ojosazules.. Yes grief is strange.. I lost a baby years ago I did not grief much but really never got over it.. On the other hand when my father passed I was devasted for 3 months and it went away.. You just do not know how it will hit you. 
Bob and I were married 51 years but I travelled and he travelled a lot and we always lives in 2 houses, somethimes together , sometimes apart so I am accustomed to wake up alone for a time , eat alone and live alone and we contined that after we retired. He spent 3 months in Chiapas and I did 7 to 8 months 

Sadness comes in waves and sometimes does not come.. He was 80 years old and I often thought that one of us would be alone, we talked about it and I think we may have gotten used to the idea. . I do not know.. I have not been hit as hard as many other widows.. and I do not knwo if I will or not.. which makes me feel guilty.. lots of contradictory feelings came up but I guess that is part of grief as well. or maybe I am getting numb.. I lost my frother and lots of froendsin the last 2 years so maybe it is all adding up and numbing me.. Do not know... Everyone is differnt. A friend of mine who is in his mid fourties lost his wife 4 years ago and he is still not back 100%. He has been totally destroyed..

I hope I will continue to be ok.. I miss our conversation and sharing ideas and meals with him but that too I will have to get used to it..I have some great friends and I am pretty busy so hopefully that will help.

Thanks for your note.


----------



## surabi

citlali said:


> I have not been hit as hard as many other widows.. and I do not knwo if I will or not.. which makes me feel guilty


I can understand why it might, but there's zero reason to feel guilty because you may not be as devastated to lose your husband than others might appear to be. 

Just the fact that you pursued different interests, and didn't necessarily travel or live together all the time would make it less devastating than for couples who basically never spend time apart. Their entire lives are wrapped up in each other, they have been together almost 24/7, for likely decades, so it would leave a huge hole when their "other half" is gone.

I think it's perfectly natural to not feel as broken if your lifestyle included independent interests and travels. It doesn't mean you didn't love him as much as a widow who seems completely devastated when her husband dies. 

And also, some people are simply not as emotional in general as others. There are those whose emotions govern their lives to a large extent, and those who operate more on thinking and pragmatism. 
And when you've lost a child (the notion that people "get over" traumatic events is ridiculous- we don't ever "get over" devastating things, they just get easier to deal with over time), a brother, and friends, many of them recently, it's simple self-preservation not to fall apart over it.


----------



## surabi

It's just a discussion. No one professed to be an "expert". You can ignore the comments you find offensive.
And these comments here were not addressed to you. I think it's up to citlali to say if she would prefer them to be conveyed via PM.


----------



## citlali

We have been getting a lot of post on you , your money, your grief and plans,. I have the right to post what I want. No oneis an expert in the subject. everyone is differnt and if you do not agree you can voice your opinion. I do not remember a whole lot of privete messages from you on the subject..


----------



## Firstlast

eastwind said:


> Well, it may not be the point, but hopefully they're reading (instead of just posting a bunch of general questions without having done any research).
> 
> And if they are reading, then it's worth pointing out that the situation in the US, while different, is also not great. Otherwise they might compare an idealized concept of the US vs a reality-based narrative of Mexico, which would be unbalanced.
> 
> I have fortunately never been stopped while driving, so I have never paid mordida. For any other situation, my thinking is it is best for Expats to get a Mexican lawyer involved to intermediate. You pay the lawyer their fee, and don't ask about their expenses in fixing the problem. As far as you're concerned, they just asked nicely. More expensive that way, but much safer for all concerned. If those of you with more Mexican experience disagree, I'd be interested in your reasoning.


I live in MX as expat for 15 years. I keep the regional US consulate on speed dial. I've never had a traffic stop in MX. If so, and there is a hint or demand for mórbida I will call the US consulate, ask for the duty officer, tell them to record the conversation, immediately give my passport number, location (geo coordinates ,if possible) and then describe the situation. I would then hand my phone to the police officer and let him describe the reason for the stop. Hopefully, the US consular officer will request the MX officer's ID, etc.


----------



## Takingiteasy

I think you mean mordida, the bite. That is an interesting plan to deal with it. Somehow I don't see the mexican cop being intimidated by a usa consolate who probably doesn't want to be involved. I suspect the cop will be impatient. If it was me and a $500 peso note would be a get out of jail free card, I will go the mordida route rather than perhaps angering the cop(s) further. Cops have many options at their disposal including illegal ones.


----------



## AlanMexicali

Firstlast said:


> I live in MX as expat for 15 years. I keep the regional US consulate on speed dial. I've never had a traffic stop in MX. If so, and there is a hint or demand for mórbida I will call the US consulate, ask for the duty officer, tell them to record the conversation, immediately give my passport number, location (geo coordinates ,if possible) and then describe the situation. I would then hand my phone to the police officer and let him describe the reason for the stop. Hopefully, the US consular officer will request the MX officer's ID, etc.


LOL.


----------



## citlali

Firstlast said:


> I live in MX as expat for 15 years. I keep the regional US consulate on speed dial. I've never had a traffic stop in MX. If so, and there is a hint or demand for mórbida I will call the US consulate, ask for the duty officer, tell them to record the conversation, immediately give my passport number, location (geo coordinates ,if possible) and then describe the situation. I would then hand my phone to the policeears officer and let him describe the reason for the stop. Hopefully, the US consular officer will request the MX officer's ID, etc.


I havelived abroad from my home country for the last 56 years and I have long learned that consulates from any country are pretty useless. You are using memory on your phone for nothing. I can see calling the consulate because someone is asking you for mordida,, they will laugh at you and do absolutly nothing.. I am a Mexican citizen so calling the consulate is a no np anyways. Hope you are never asked for mordida... I cannot believe that you have lived here 15 years and never been ask.. you must be blessed or something.


----------



## citlali

Takingiteasy 500 pesos to get out of jail? You are forgetting about the inflation.. $500 will not get you from going to jail, you have to revise your mordida schedule.


----------



## Takingiteasy

Citali, I have not been asked, I have heard stories like one guy was found passed out in his car at the side of the road drunk. He had a usa $50 and told me he got out of it. So I was thinking for a minor problem or imaginary offense (made up) then maybe 500 pesos would do it. 

Does anyone have tips on that? Do they name a figure, hint around, or wait for you to offer? I'm sure a major crime will get you hauled off no matter how much $$ you offer but what about not so major? Citali, what do you know about it?


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> LOL.


LOL indeed, Alan. I can't imagine an American consulate having time or interest in helping a US citizen with a minor mordida problem.


----------



## citlali

It depends on the cops.. I have not been hit for years for mordida but I was hit plenty years ago when I had a foreign plate car. The transitos used to be very bad in Mexico state and the city. One day they stopped me because it was a no circula day.. but it was Benito Juarez day so it did not apply. They told me they were going to impound he car, I told them they could not because it was a holiay so they decided to hit me on a not using the blinker to change lane.. total bs and pretty funny in Mexico city where the traffic is a zoo anyways. I told them to give me the ticket so they started telling me it was going to cost me a fortune so I refused to pay , we argued a long time then at the end they say how much are you going to give me, I finally said 200 pesos.. they refused, told me it was not enought and they wanted 500 peos. (That was 20 years ago) SO I made a deal with them, I was around the airport lost.. told them I would give them 500 pesos if they got me on the right road.. They said yes turned on the sirene and told me to follow them and they escorted me to the place I was looking for..
WHen they put me in jail because of an accident.. a Mexican friend of mine try to get me out bribing the head of the police but he refused.. so I spent 2 days ther... You just never know what will happen and it could fall back on your head.. I have not paid mordida for about 20 years.. The transitos were very bad at one time but not so bad right now.. If you want to get out of something start low they will raise the price , do not worry.


----------



## citlali

citlali said:


> It depends on the cops.. I have not been hit for years for mordida but I was hit plenty years ago when I had a foreign plate car. The transitos used to be very bad in Mexico state and the city. One day they stopped me because it was a no circula day.. but it was Benito Juarez day so it did not apply. They told me they were going to impound he car, I told them they could not because it was a holiay so they decided to hit me on a not using the blinker to change lane.. total bs and pretty funny in Mexico city where the traffic is a zoo anyways. I told them to give me the ticket so they started telling me it was going to cost me a fortune so I refused to pay , we argued a long time then at the end they say how much are you going to give me, I finally said 200 pesos.. they refused, told me it was not enought and they wanted 500 pesos. (That was 20 years ago) SO I made a deal with them, I was around the airport lost.. told them I would give them 500 pesos if they got me on the right road.. They said yes turned on the sirene and told me to follow them and they escorted me to the place I was looking for..
> WHen they put me in jail because of an accident.. a Mexican friend of mine try to get me out bribing the head of the police but he refused.. so I spent 2 days ther... You just never know what will happen and it could fall back on your head.. I have not paid mordida for about 20 years.. The transitos were very bad at one time but not so bad right now.. If you want to get out of something start low they will raise the price , do not worry.


50 dollars is a lot of money.. I would not pay it.. If the guy is sleeping in his car , he is not driving so what do they want to book him on? One I do not offer bribe now, I tell them to write the ticket which is half price if you pay quickly. so it all depends what they want to get you one but if they are really crooked , good luck.. It all dpends on how hungry they are , what they think they can get out of you and so on.. If you do not act scared and do not back down they usally will write the ticket or let you go..


----------



## surabi

In the 20 years I have lived in Mexico, I have been stopped maybe 3 times. All were legitimate, I really was going above the speed limit or some other minor infraction.
I am not at all scared when this happens, I just accept the ticket and go pay it. All the cops are not mordida-seeking, you can actually offend the honest ones by offering them a bribe.

Only once did I pay one who was obviously suggesting that, and only because I had an appointment I was going to be late for and was too busy to contemplate driving the one hour I would have had to, to pay the ticket and get my license, which they confiscate, back.

I had run a red light, but only because there was a huge truck in front of me blocking my view of the light, so I just followed him through what turned out to be the tail end of the yellow light. And had I stopped quickly, the car behind me would have likely rear-ended me.

I didn't even notice that there was a cop car sitting at that intersection- I heard the siren and flashing lights a block later. He dithered around, blah, blah, which made it obvious he was hinting at mordida, and passed me a brochure he had in his cruiser, making sure to open it as he handed it to me. I slipped 200 pesos in it and he let me get on my way.

But every time we do that, it legitimizes a system of mordida, so I prefer not to.

I have friend who had a vacation home here, would come down for a couple months a year. Her Spanish was dismal, and she really didn't know how things work here, so when she was stopped for speeding (she was, she always drives too fast) and the cop hit her up for 2000 pesos, she just handed it over. She got totally freaked out when he said he had to confiscate her license, and would get it back when she went to pay the fine. She didn't know that is how the system works here. Relinquish your license, go pay the fine, they give your license back, no problem.


----------



## Takingiteasy

Very interesting, so they usually accuse you of something you didn't do or possibly did do and want money instead of giving the ticket? I'm curious about the part where they go from doing more or less their job, writing tickets, and shift over to the mordida. Do they come out and say something like "this ticket will cost you a lot but give me xxx and I will fix it for you" I assume they must do that because you never offer it. Do they hint around at first and then become more blunt or just say give me 500?

The guy who told me the story about trouble with cops when he was drunk didn't say if his car was running or shut off. My recollection is that he was on the road drunk but parked. In the states they can arrest you for drunk driving even if you are not driving. Simply being in the car and capable of taking off while drunk is enough. It may be similar in mx or the cop could simply say the car was moving a little. I would pay $50 to keep out of jail for a few days plus the fine is not going to be zero.


----------



## citlali

Well you can go to jail if you are driving drunk so i guess it was worth 50 box.. Yes the crooked cops can acuse you of somethkng you did not do.. like the blinker thing for me..so you quickly get the idea.. That cop wanted money, at the end he told me how much are you going to give me..Most of them ard not that direct
.I try not to give them.anything and i have not for years..but sometimes uou are stuck..I di not eorry about much..most cop stop you for things you have dkne and i take the ticket..


----------



## surabi

Takingiteasy said:


> Do they come out and say something like "this ticket will cost you a lot but give me xxx and I will fix it for you"


In my experience, and in my area, they usually try to be slightly more subtle than that, like when he reached in his car and handed me some sort of driving regs brochure, making a bit of a show of opening it as he handed it to me. When I took it, he told me to go back in my car and his partner would come up to the window and I should hand it back to him. It's hard to explain, you kind of have to be there to witness it, but if the cop isn't looking for mordida, they don't dither around or engage you in banter or conversation, they just tell you what the infraction is, and write out a ticket. A mordida seeking cop might go through the motions to start writing a ticket, but slowly, or act like his pen is out of ink and he's searching through his pocket to find another one, giving you time to offer him money, that sort of thing. Or tell you the fine for your infraction will be a lot of money.

In places like Puerto Vallarta, which is quite reliant on tourism, the cops tend to just do their jobs straightforwardly- they have been told to not hassle the gringoes as they can't afford to get a bad rap as a place where tourists or expats get shaken down. In fact, almost all the vehicles I see the cops in Vallarta pull over are Mexicans, although if a foreigner is legitimately speeding, or runs a red light, or makes an illegal turn, they will pull you over just like they will a Mexican. But they don't target foreigners.


----------



## Firstlast

Takingiteasy said:


> I think you mean mordida, the bite. That is an interesting plan to deal with it. Somehow I don't see the mexican cop being intimidated by a usa consolate who probably doesn't want to be involved. I suspect the cop will be impatient. If it was me and a $500 peso note would be a get out of jail free card, I will go the mordida route rather than perhaps angering the cop(s) further. Cops have many options at their disposal including illegal ones.


I. No cop wants to be involved with an embassy/consulate regarding a spurious traffic stop that is an effort to obtain a bribe. 
2. The embassy /consulate will respond. I've had other dealings and the consulate responded favorably. 
3.Once you give up the money so easily and it's a local cop(Muni, state or national) you are a marked man for further donations. Hint, if you must, only offer 200 pesos.


----------



## Firstlast

surabi said:


> In my experience, and in my area, they usually try to be slightly more subtle than that, like when he reached in his car and handed me some sort of driving regs brochure, making a bit of a show of opening it as he handed it to me. When I took it, he told me to go back in my car and his partner would come up to the window and I should hand it back to him. It's hard to explain, you kind of have to be there to witness it, but if the cop isn't looking for mordida, they don't dither around or engage you in banter or conversation, they just tell you what the infraction is, and write out a ticket. A mordida seeking cop might go through the motions to start writing a ticket, but slowly, or act like his pen is out of ink and he's searching through his pocket to find another one, giving you time to offer him money, that sort of thing. Or tell you the fine for your infraction will be a lot of money.
> 
> In places like Puerto Vallarta, which is quite reliant on tourism, the cops tend to just do their jobs straightforwardly- they have been told to not hassle the gringoes as they can't afford to get a bad rap as a place where tourists or expats get shaken down. In fact, almost all the vehicles I see the cops in Vallarta pull over are Mexicans, although if a foreigner is legitimately speeding, or runs a red light, or makes an illegal turn, they will pull you over just like they will a Mexican. But they don't target foreigners.


They hand you the book to put the money in.


----------



## surabi

Exactly. And I understood that immediately, but I've lived in Mexico for 20 years.


----------



## Takingiteasy

Firstlast said:


> I. No cop wants to be involved with an embassy/consulate regarding a spurious traffic stop that is an effort to obtain a bribe.
> 2. The embassy /consulate will respond. I've had other dealings and the consulate responded favorably.
> 3.Once you give up the money so easily and it's a local cop(Muni, state or national) you are a marked man for further donations. Hint, if you must, only offer 200 pesos.


Some interesting info has come out in this thread. However, you do realize the us embassy has no jurisdiction over mexican cops, or anyone in mexico don't you? The consul can not order the cop to let you go, if you are very lucky he might ask the cop nicely, that is about the extent of their "powers" from what I understand. Are you saying you got someone at the consulate on the phone to talk to a cop you had a problem with? That would be a minor miracle. However the suggestion of a $200 offer is probably a good idea. Citali mentioned that also. Not so much to make them greedy but worth it to avoid ticket. Maybe refusing to pay as she said she often does is the best policy? To me its worth 200 not to have to go down to where you pay, never mind the cost of the ticket. If it cost 500 it would be worth it to me but better to haggle than to look like a mark. Of course if you have mexican plates or don't drive its harder to shake you down.

It sounds like they want to be a little discrete about asking for and taking the bribe. It is technically against mexican law, but widely ignored. Citali said the cop asked "how much are you giving me?" It might depend on whether they had made enough tickets and arrests for the month if they would take a small mordida rather than write it out. I'm sure they keep an eye on cop productivity in that way same as here. 

So if I'm stopped driving or jay walking and the cop is not in a big hurry to write the ticket if I say "200?" that is a good strategy? No, I still do not think your plan about intimidating the cop by calling the consulate will work I will not try that. Is it better to say "necesita dinero?" or is that too blunt? Making an insult by mistake might be easy to do and hard to work with. My thinking after trying rental cars is that its best to take cabs or the bus since you avoid potential traffic accidents, tickets, jail visits and bribe seekers. Assuming you don't do anything dumb of course.


----------



## MangoTango

I haven't read this entire thread - but I think I get the jist.
We were stopped 8-9 years ago leaving Acapulco. I had out of state Mexican plates. There was a road leading to the highway and there were cars double parked. I had to drive to the left of the parked cars, which put me in the 'left turn only' lane - but I continued straight. I was stopped by two traffic cops. I don't recall the exact sequence of events, but they told me to pull up ahead. When I looked in my rear view mirror they were not there. I stopped for gas. They were still not there. I left the gas station and there they were. They had a laminated card which listed the fines. (It's been a long time ago but 4000 pesos comes to mind). We did not have time to discuss it - we had to get home. My wife went to pay them and they said - no no no - there are too many cameras here. And they handed her a book to put the money into. When we got home I posted something on a local chat board. Numerous people chimed in that they were stopped at the exact same location as we were. Some people were outraged that we paid. That was on the 'south' side of Acapulco and it left such a sour taste in our mouths we never went back to that part of town (we stayed to the north).


----------



## Takingiteasy

That sounds like a huge fine for a minor traffic infraction. Especially since there was no way to avoid it. Do you think if you took a photo of the road and went to contest the ticket that you would beat it?


----------



## MangoTango

Takingiteasy said:


> That sounds like a huge fine for a minor traffic infraction. Especially since there was no way to avoid it. Do you think if you took a photo of the road and went to contest the ticket that you would beat it?


No. And I think the whole situation was staged. I don't think it was one violation. I think they had a whole list of infractions.


----------



## surabi

There are definitely areas to avoid where there are known to be crooked cops who stage set-ups. They tend not to be in populated areas that depend on tourism and expats as a large percentage of their economy. So on highways, on the outskirts of cities, in small towns. But there are also some rogue, crooked cops in heavily ex-pat areas, and residents are well-aware of who they are. If there are enough complaints to the authorities, those cops will often be relocated to somewhere else.

There are also certain times of year when these things happen more frequently, for instance right before Xmas, when the cops want money for their holidays.

The basic cause of all this mordida business is partly ingrained in the culture, but largely wouldn't exist if cops were better paid. Poverty breeds crime.


----------



## Jreboll

I used to go to Monterrey often. There was always a cop on a corner near where I went to. If he saw a car coming by with Texas plates he would blow his whistle. Those who went there often would just ignore him and keep on driving. He didn’t have a car so he couldn’t chase you. Those who stopped would have to pay a mordida.


----------



## MangoTango

Well I'll share this rather complementary situation. It was a lazy, hot weekday afternoon in South Florida. At the time both my wife and I were working out of the house. So I asked - how about a beach drive (we lived about a 5 minutes drive away). So we are heading down A1A through a town called Hillsboro Beach. It is known as millionaire mile. (If you have never seen it perhaps check it our on YouTube. There are some very impressive mansions along that stretch of road). It is a two lane road - 1 lane in each direction. There are double yellow lines painted down the middle of the road and signs all over - do not pass. There was no shoulder. The car in front of me, a convertible with the roof down and filled with obvious tourists - stopped - maybe to change drivers (I don't remember). So I inched my way around that stopped car. A police vehicle had been hiding behind a building (waiting for speeders), saw me on the other side of the double yellow lines (actually only my left tires) and pulled over and wrote me up. I said you've got to be kidding me. He said - you can always take it to court. I said - you're on.

So I had a court date. Me and 100-200 other people. The courtroom was stuffed. The judge said something like - well look around you - I don't have time to hear all your stories so here's my offer. Option #1 : You can plead not quilty and we will set you up with an official court date, in the future, at the county courthouse - but I have to warn you - that will cost you a minimum of $300 USD just for the date (I'm making that number up - I don't remember the amount) - if you lose it will be substantially more. Option #2 : You can plead quilty and I'm in a good mood today - you will pay a fine and your license will incur the points - but you can leave here quickly. Option #3 : You can plead no contest. You will not be ajudicated (you will receive no points) but you will have to pay today's court costs of $50 US. When I call your name please stand and state which option you choose. 

Boy have we ever taken a tangent from the Cruz Roja theme...


----------



## MangoTango

surabi said:


> The basic cause of all this mordida business is partly ingrained in the culture, but largely wouldn't exist if cops were better paid. Poverty breeds crime.


I thought of this thread when I read this article this morning :
Policías podrán comer gratis en restaurantes

As a kid growing up, there was a lot of that sort of thing in the US.


----------



## Takingiteasy

I don't believe that 'poverty breeds crime' trope. If that were true then all poor people would be thieves and criminals but the fact is the great majority of poor people do not steal. In fact, rich people steal more than the poor or middle class because they know the tricks and can get away with it. Cops in mexico get an average base salary of $276,000 per year and get an average of $6000 in bonus. They are not poor compared to the rest of the country. I think its mostly a matter of its been done since forever so even if its illegal we will do it which means they are crooks. The little crooks shake you down for a few hundred pesos. And the outright crooks will set you up for a big shakedown. We don't even want to talk about what a really bad cop might do and they are not poor

I figure if you walk or ride a cab, etc, you are almost guaranteed not to be subject to a shakedown. They don't bother cabs and if they pulled one over for a violation, they can't give you a ticket for being a passenger. Now that part is a little iffy because I met a guy in the states who went to jail for he said drunken driving when he was a passenger. He apparently was an a-hole to the cops which I'm sure made a difference. But he was in for like 3 months which if it was only a drunk arrest he would be out the next day. So maybe if you are super drunk in that situation try to be polite and say as little as possible. I don't know if mexico law has such loopholes that they can arrest like that but I mention it as a possibility. But everyone here knows not to give cops a hard time. You have to be stupid to do that but when drunk, people get stupid


----------

